# The Martial Arts Thread



## sam76 (9 May 2009)

My mate that i used to live with in Japan has now returned and opened a Bujinkan Dojo in Adelaide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan

An awesome guy and a very professional instructor.

11 years direct training under Hatsumi Sensei (master of no less than 9 schools of martial arts)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi

Cost: $10 (concession $8)                                                             
Time: Every Sunday 12 – 2pm                                                       
Place: Fullarton Scouts Hall, 1a Culross Avenue, Myrtle Bank   
Queries: Call Steve on 0450 404 270 

PM me if you'd like more info or give Steve a call (as I said he's a great guy and very friendly)


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## weird (9 May 2009)

I use to do karate for a while, Kyokushin which is a great style  and is very similar to Shotokan, except Kyokushin was more full contact ... both styles I respect, I believe there are only 4 styles, that truly descend from the original karate, but perhaps I am wrong, those 2, and 2 others which aren't really practiced. 

There are so many other styles of marital arts, throughout the world, karate is only one, ... one thing I do note from some clubs is that they become an overwhelming lifestyle for some members, which is not unusual for clubs in general, and if that is what you are looking for, then that is great, but however if you are involved in 10 other things, then perhaps it is more of a commitment your ready to ... anyway had great fun doing martial arts, great for fitness and respect those that do it.


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## Calanen (10 May 2009)

I did kickboxing for a long time, and can hold my own in a fight. But I have a friend who did ninjitsu and kyokyshin karate who is in a whole other league.

A car full of _gentlemen of middle eastern appearance_, four of them, got out and tried to bash him - as you do, wouldn't be a good night out without a four on one on an aussie walking home.  Anyway - He Bruce Lee'd them so bad that they were struggling to help each other get back into the car and drive off. Not many people I can think of that could do that and still be upright.

He posts on this board - take a bow - Disarray.

He also bitchslaps people who throw ice at him. Not me - I'm not that silly to try


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 May 2009)

Have been practising Wing Chun for a while now.
Have been in HK lately with the association training with the one of the 4 head grandmasters there.

Bruce Lee was part of this school and style in his early days in HK. Of course he expanded and researched extra on his style to have Jeet Kune Do.

But the foundations of WC are very consistent with Bruce's ramblings about efficiency and economy rather than focusing on flashy moves and unnecessary forms/katas/ and routines that serve no purpose. Famed for our "one inch punch" - and yes it is really painful

Sorry rambling
Check it out - there is a recent movie by Donnie Yen about the Head of Wing Chun - Ip Man


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## Ghetto23 (10 May 2009)

I did Bujinkan Ninjitsu for about 5 years - starting in about '97.

I highly recommend it - a mixture of strikes, grappling and weapons that really teaches you how to handle real-life situations. Couldn't have enjoyed it more while I was doing it.


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## lookout (10 May 2009)

I enjoy hearing stories about thugs picking on someone more skilled than they are. A friend of mine has much experience with Karate and street fighting; occasionally thugs attack him and get more than they give. Seems there's no shortage of bullies out there if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (my friend has a habit of being in the wrong place). The cops can only do so much so a little vigilante action is a good thing I think.

I'm putting the kids through Taekwondo - maybe not the most effective martial art, but still good, and the club is friendly and family oriented. If they're interested I'll add in a close combat art in the future.

What are people's thoughts on the best close combat forms geared towards street fighting where you might have more than one oponent?


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## weird (10 May 2009)

weird said:


> I believe there are only 4 styles ... karate ...




Had abit more time to research this today ... been ages since looked into Martial Arts history.

Appears that there are 4 main schools of karate in Japan - Goju-ryu, Sh1to-ryu, Shotokan, and Wado-ryu.

Kyokushin , was created by Masutatsu Oyama , originally trained in Goju-ryu.

I don't really know much about Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu or Sh1to-ryu - but there appears to be quite a presence of these clubs throughout Australia.


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## sam76 (10 May 2009)

lookout said:


> I enjoy hearing stories about thugs picking on someone more skilled than they are. A friend of mine has much experience with Karate and street fighting; occasionally thugs attack him and get more than they give. Seems there's no shortage of bullies out there if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (my friend has a habit of being in the wrong place). The cops can only do so much so a little vigilante action is a good thing I think.
> 
> I'm putting the kids through Taekwondo - maybe not the most effective martial art, but still good, and the club is friendly and family oriented. If they're interested I'll add in a close combat art in the future.
> 
> What are people's thoughts on the best close combat forms geared towards street fighting where you might have more than one oponent?




Bujinkan is oriented towards real life street fighting against multiple attackers.


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

lookout said:


> I enjoy hearing stories about thugs picking on someone more skilled than they are. A friend of mine has much experience with Karate and street fighting; occasionally thugs attack him and get more than they give. Seems there's no shortage of bullies out there if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (my friend has a habit of being in the wrong place). The cops can only do so much so a little vigilante action is a good thing I think.
> 
> I'm putting the kids through Taekwondo - maybe not the most effective martial art, but still good, and the club is friendly and family oriented. If they're interested I'll add in a close combat art in the future.
> 
> What are people's thoughts on the best close combat forms geared towards street fighting where you might have more than one oponent?




Friend of mine is one of the most experienced Taekwondo exponents in the country, he always backs away from a fight but could kill you in seconds if need be.

They don't train one on one, they take on 4 or 5 guys at a time.

Don't underestimate Taekwondo.


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## Largesse (10 May 2009)

lookout said:


> I enjoy hearing stories about thugs picking on someone more skilled than they are. A friend of mine has much experience with Karate and street fighting; occasionally thugs attack him and get more than they give. Seems there's no shortage of bullies out there if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (my friend has a habit of being in the wrong place). The cops can only do so much so a little vigilante action is a good thing I think.
> 
> I'm putting the kids through Taekwondo - maybe not the most effective martial art, but still good, and the club is friendly and family oriented. If they're interested I'll add in a close combat art in the future.
> 
> *What are people's thoughts on the best close combat forms geared towards street fighting where you might have more than one oponent*?




Krav Maga (Mossad and Israelli Special Forces H2H)
or 
Systema (Russian Special Forces H2H)

Krav is ultimately about surviving and getting away, but teaches some pretty serious striking.

Systema is pretty much lethal hand to hand combat.

Pretty serious stuff to get into though


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Friend of mine is one of the most experienced Taekwondo exponents in the country, he always backs away from a fight but could kill you in seconds if need be.
> 
> They don't train one on one, they take on 4 or 5 guys at a time.
> 
> Don't underestimate Taekwondo.




Beware, martial arts is a bit like trading.
Lots of info and you have to sort thru all the BS.
Some mysticism that you never see - kind of like Gann real time charts here *cringe*
Best thing is to see and experience it for yourself

Like the above quote - somehow implies TKD system can take multiple attackers
MrBurns I don't know if you have sparred multiple attackers - it is extremely difficult and especially if you are up against all skilled opponents.

All fighting systems have the goal of being able to handle many situations and scenarios e.g. multiple, knife and weapon disarm etc

From my experiences so far for street (and yes it will depend on teacher and school):
Krav Maga
Wing Chun
Kali/Arnis/Escrima
Any of the Silat styles
Qin Na
MMA exponents

I'd imagine ninjitsu would be part of this as it is very lethal orientated but have never met anyone who practises this.


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## sam76 (10 May 2009)

Krav Maga is good - teaches three strike zones, groin, eyes and throat from memory.

Less "martial artsy" and a good self defence program 

i've got a whole lot of KM dvd's lying around from Carl Halley somewhere.


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## lookout (10 May 2009)

I had no idea there were so many fighting styles. I checked out Wiki and Youtube and some of them look very practical. I see nobody mentioned Judo - is that because it is effective against a single opponent but not so good for multiple attackers?

My 9yo daughter has no power/speed behind her punches but can deliver a good kick. We practice scenarios at home like kick to the groin and run, kick to the head/groin if she's on her back, bite the ear or throat and rip, eye gouges, elbow to the spine or back of the head if she's over the shoulder, etc. We're about to start more contact sparring with a friends kid too - must practice.


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## hunter and co (10 May 2009)

Guys I hate to rain on your parade but punching the air for ten years and claiming you can kill a man with one blow is nuts Boxing kickboxing jui jutsi mma were you make contact with the head and body is the only way to give you so hope in a real self defence situation







MrBurns said:


> Friend of mine is one of the most experienced Taekwondo exponents in the country, he always backs away from a fight but could kill you in seconds if need be.
> 
> They don't train one on one, they take on 4 or 5 guys at a time.
> 
> Don't underestimate Taekwondo.


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## tech/a (10 May 2009)

Was one of Jim Fung's first 3 students when he arrived in Australia. He was dating a friends sister. Jim was a wonderful and warm friend. have not trained for years.
Very upset when I was contacted by the Wing Chun Acadamy who informed me he had died of Nasal Cancer---Just like Jim few knew!








A wonderful Friend and Disipline neither will I forget.


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> Guys I hate to rain on your parade but punching the air for ten years and claiming you can kill a man with one blow is nuts Boxing kickboxing jui jutsi mma were you make contact with the head and body is the only way to give you so hope in a real self defence situation




Is this the beginning (again) of MMA and UFC enthusiasts coming in to tell how its done?

I hope this does not turn into this system is better than others thread

LOL


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 May 2009)

tech/a said:


> Was one of Jim Fung's first 3 students when he arrived in Australia. He was dating a friends sister. Jim was a wonderful and warm friend. have not trained for years.
> Very upset when I was contacted by the Wing Chun Acadamy who informed me he had died of Nasal Cancer---Just like Jim few knew!
> 
> 
> ...




Tech - have met Sifu Jim and Sigung

Sifu Jim passed away about 3 years ago, frequently did Chi Sao with his students
Must mean you know Albert and Co.


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

Link to Krav Maga

http://www.sdtactics.com.au/index.html

always thought it would be good to be taught in schools.


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## tech/a (10 May 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> Tech - have met Sifu Jim and Sigung
> 
> Sifu Jim passed away about 3 years ago, frequently did Chi Sao with his students
> Must mean you know Albert and Co.




No never met Albert.

Jim hadn't started the Academy when I trained with him.
His English was pretty average. but he didnt need to say much!
Infact when I stopped 5 yrs later he had only 15 or so Students I was 23 now 55.
He lived in a very modest home in Edwardstown a middle class working suburb in Adelaide. We used to attempt to walk up the gravel driveway without him hearing us.
He used to train with a wooden man and you could hear the blows as you crept up the path.
Took 18 mths to get to that door!

I clearly remember asking Jimmy how fast he really was.
Not the brightest thing I ever did.
He looked at me and said--Hit me.
I thought there is no way your going to see this---his eyes were fixed between my eyebrows.
I was as careful as I could be not to telegraph a very short open handed punch aimed at his jaw----about 18 inches away.
I remember feeling a tap to my wrist and elbow the blow went sailing past the side of his head and an inverted fist was under my nose touching lightly.

I never asked again.
We didn't have Ghee's
Nor was there a belt system.
Only Brother and Senior brother.Of course Jim was Master.

Jim had a wicked sense of humor which I enjoyed.

I lost track of him for a long period when he moved to Sydney.
But one day I was at the Directors pub in Adelaide next to the Wing Chun Acadamy. I was out side with one of the other original students--Geoff.
Having a drink one night. Wing Chun the furthest thing from our minds.

I then noticed Jim and 2 other Chinese guys striding toward a Black Merc across the road.
I got up and walked toward him--- yelling Jimmy---Jimmy Fung.
The two Chinese guys turned toward me and Jim kept walking.
I yelled louder and Jim turned and caught my eye.

I'll never forget as he turned on his heel and gave me an enormous hug in the middle of the road. "You should have stayed with me my friend you would be so strong and powerful" he said. He missed his plane when he realised Geoff also was there we laughed and talked like it was just yesterday. I never saw him again.


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> Like the above quote - somehow implies TKD system can take multiple attackers
> MrBurns I don't know if you have sparred multiple attackers - it is extremely difficult and especially if you are up against all skilled opponents.




Well it can take multiple attackers, the guy I'm talking about is at the top of the tree, He has more developed muscles in one hand than most people have in their body, I've seen people go white as he does his hand exercises.

Please don't knock others statements when you just _don't know._


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> Guys I hate to rain on your parade but punching the air for ten years and claiming you can kill a man with one blow is nuts Boxing kickboxing jui jutsi mma were you make contact with the head and body is the only way to give you so hope in a real self defence situation




Once again you just _don't know_ to make a statement like that.


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Well it can take multiple attackers, the guy I'm talking about is at the top of the tree, He has more developed muscles in one hand than most people have in their body, I've seen people go white as he does his hand exercises.
> 
> Please don't knock others statements when you just _don't know._




I did not imply your friend cannot do the things you say
Just pointing out it is misleading to say "TKD doesn't train one on one, only multiple attackers"

"don't know" ---- there are people who generate force/power via efficient movement and body structure not muscles. 

I am not having a go at you MrBurns - my point is for people to actually experience the hits/skills rather than listen to stories whether true or not.

Tech/a has experienced Sifu Jim's force. I would say I copped it from Sifu Jim when he was in Sydney when he was even more advanced than back in Adelaide. I didn't see any muscle exercises and flashy BS


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> I did not imply your friend cannot do the things you say
> Just pointing out it is misleading to say "TKD doesn't train one on one, only multiple attackers"
> 
> "don't know" ---- there are people who generate force/power via efficient movement and body structure not muscles.
> ...




Sorry I meant HE doesnt train one on one much, mainly multiple attackers because of his level.

The muscle exercises arent flashy but if you bother to look they are intimidating to the untrained eye, hand like a mechanical claw the muscles are so highly developed.



> "don't know" ---- there are people who generate force/power via efficient movement and body structure not muscles.




He uses both.


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## Wysiwyg (10 May 2009)

In my teens I tried Zen Do Kai in a Bob Jones school. My enthusiasm tapered when alcohol became more of an interest but remember copping a side-kick in the mouth from sensei which produced blood from lip. He is a friend too. 

Also attended classes later in my 20`s and got another side-kick in the mouth from sensei which produced blood from lip. On both occasions these guys pulled their kick which could easily have removed teeth. 
All part of the toughening up I thought. Gone soft nowadays.


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

There was a story going round that Bob Jones grew his hair long when it wasnt in fashion, went to hotels and waited to be picked on, then he had some fun.


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## hunter and co (10 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Once again you just _don't know_ to make a statement like that.



LOL There you are wrong! I have  worked with world class boxers and a couple of guys that have fought in the ufc So to quote you YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.  i was commenting only to help people understand the karate myth of "kill a man with one blow." Teach you kids to really defend themselves not punch the air.


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## motorway (10 May 2009)

> there are people who generate force/power via efficient movement and body structure not muscles.




The Mysterious QI 

Tai Kwon Do a long time ago....

But mostly Xing I Quan ( or Hsing I Chuan)

motorway


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> LOL There you are wrong! I have  worked with world class boxers and a couple of guys that have fought in the ufc So to quote you YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.  i was commenting only to help people understand the karate myth of "kill a man with one blow." Teach you kids to really defend themselves not punch the air.




The only one who mentioned anything about killing someone with one blow was you.


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## lesm (10 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> LOL There you are wrong! I have  worked with world class boxers and a couple of guys that have fought in the ufc So to quote you YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.  i was commenting only to help people understand the karate myth of "kill a man with one blow." *Teach you kids to really defend themselves not punch the air*.




But, then aren't espousing another myth that martial arts only teaches people to punch in the air.

All forms of fighting sports have their strengths and weaknesses. Discussion of this is meaningful, otherwise it comes down to mine is better than yours. 

The latter discussion goes nowhere.

Cheers


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## MrBurns (10 May 2009)

lesm said:


> But, then aren't espousing another myth that martial arts only teaches people to punch in the air.
> 
> All forms of fighting sports have their strengths and weakness. Discussion of this is meaningful, otherwise it comes down to mine is better than yours.
> 
> ...





Agree......


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## disarray (10 May 2009)

all martial arts have value in that they develop fitness, require discipline and lead to self confidence. these are all great goals. however from a self defence standpoint certain styles are more effective than others, particularly those that use contact as part of the training.

muay thai, boxing, kyokushin, various MMA styles, all have regular contact fighting as the path to advancement which is an important key in translating to the street. learning to manage adrenaline dumps, conditioning to take blows, true confidence knowing you can get clobbered and still keep on swinging are the things needed for truly effective self defence. 

for the lay person not interested in training esoteric arts for years there are lots of simple self defence books and courses that recommend 1) situational awareness for avoiding the fight or enabling a quick escape and 2) a few simple movements to specific locations, and i think these can be very very effective. you want to keep it simple, you don't need to develop an arsenal of flash moves, just a solid stance and a few simple techniques delivered to squishy targets with a strong amount of hate behind them.

all training and philosophical arguments aside, martial arts is the study of violence and those with the capacity to engage in extreme violence (or preferably avoid a fight altogether) are those who are best equipped to defend themselves against attack. many people are repelled by violence, others revel in it, but understanding yourself is always a good first step.


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## weird (10 May 2009)

disarray said:


> all martial arts have value in that they develop fitness, require discipline and lead to self confidence. these are all great goals. however from a self defence standpoint certain styles are more effective than others, particularly those that use contact as part of the training.
> 
> muay thai, boxing, kyokushin, various MMA styles, all have regular contact fighting as the path to advancement which is an important key in translating to the street. learning to manage adrenaline dumps, conditioning to take blows, true confidence knowing you can get clobbered and still keep on swinging are the things needed for truly effective self defence.
> 
> ...




Agree. Also most martial arts, teach running away is the best form of defense (although not always possible). I was surprised to read about a well known entity that would have fun by having long hair and waiting to be picked on.

Luckily I haven't had to engage in violence for over 20 years, but remember being silly, and engaging myself , also mentioned before was judo ... yep the guy beat me by getting me into a choke hold, couldn't breath, he won, but also on another comment was the usefulness of boxing ... I could also hit this guy with my left jab, none of the kicks landed ... anyhow after a decent fight you are cut everywhere, jumping into water, reminds you of every cut and abrasion.

However these days, lets use Sydney as an example you have knives drawn on to a person stopping a hand bag robbery in the Rocks, or a "glassing' in a Night club ... there are no rules anymore ... while these situations don't occur that often, they do occur, and no one wants to feel like pussy, but even if they do, you need to decide between defending yourself and love ones,  fleeing or being submissive (which may not be a bad choice).

With Kyokushin, we were taught high kicks, but there was alot more emphasis on low kicks, I believe some of the reasoning is that the surface could be slippery.

As part of the training we were fortunate to have the Gracie Brothers out for a short term to learn, Gracie Style of Jiu-Jitsu, which was very informative. I remember once seeing a guy pinned, in Circular Quay in some stupid fight, using a very similar technique. Gracie's are very cool btw.

Anyhow, did abit of research on Krav Maga , there are classes in Sydney , might look into it this year.  Looks good.


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## maffu (10 May 2009)

I just downloaded and watched an interesting TV series from the History Channel called Human Weapon (Discovery did a similar show called Fight Quest)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Weapon

The two hosts who have a fighting background travel the world and train in different styles. The show gives a simple overview of the history of the art and where it developed from, and they learn a few moves unique to the art. It was really interesting to see the different strengths and weaknesses of various different martial arts.

The different arts all had good reasons to develop how they have, and there is no universal 'best art' eg:Jiu Jitsu/Judo had important grappling techniques as strikes were useless against Samurai armour.
TKD used many powerful kicks as Korea was so hilly and punches and grappling was not as useful in the terrain.
Wing Chun developed such efficient movement as small women originally used it. 
Krav Maga was developed taking bits and pieces from other arts to maximise its efficiency in real brutal close combat in Israeli streets, and to be as brutal as possible for real life situations.


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## nunthewiser (11 May 2009)

has a blackbelt in irish karate....................move along


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## mazzatelli1000 (11 May 2009)

motorway said:


> The Mysterious QI
> 
> Tai Kwon Do a long time ago....
> 
> ...




Ahhh from your posts, it comes as no surprise that you would be interested in this area 

Relax, relax, relax..........


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## Jack Payback (11 May 2009)

lookout said:


> ]
> I'm putting the kids through Taekwondo - maybe not the most effective martial art, but still good, and the club is friendly and family oriented. If they're interested I'll add in a close combat art in the future.
> 
> What are people's thoughts on the best close combat forms geared towards street fighting where you might have more than one oponent?




Judo and Aikido and their parent style Ju-Jitsu are all good for people without much strength as opposed to their attackers i.e. women and children against a larger foe. 

These styles don't require strength, but use the opponents' body and motion against themselves. I preferred these styles as opposed to strike fighting as I tended to use less energy and got less tired, also the floor is a really good weapon and can do a lot of damage to an opponent!

Kung Fu offers a lot of the same techniques.


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## gazelle (11 May 2009)

A True Legend . There are only a few and they are committed to their Art . 
Very few Westerners will cross the divide and humble themselves towards learning the True Art .


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## bunyip (11 May 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> In my teens I tried Zen Do Kai in a Bob Jones school. My enthusiasm tapered when alcohol became more of an interest but remember copping a side-kick in the mouth from sensei which produced blood from lip. He is a friend too.
> 
> Also attended classes later in my 20`s and got another side-kick in the mouth from sensei which produced blood from lip. On both occasions these guys pulled their kick which could easily have removed teeth.
> All part of the toughening up I thought. Gone soft nowadays.




I also did Zen Do Kai, as did two of my kids. I don't know how it compares to other karate styles as it's the only style I did. But I wouldn't like to have been any street thug who tried to push his weight around with some of those black belt instructors at our club.....there were some pretty capable boys among them.

A mate of mine is a black belt 4th dan and went on to take the Queensland light heavyweight professional kick boxing championship. One night at a pub he was challenged by a huge bloke who was feeling adventurous after a few beers.
My mate at first tried to ignore him, but the bloke jibed him until eventually they stepped outside. The other bloke swung the first punch. No need to describe what happened next - suffice to say that he learned the hard way the perils of picking an ex QLD light heavyweight champ.

My most memorable moment in martial arts when I was a 17 year old learning Judo. One night I tried a mock knife attack on one of the instructors. Next think I knew I was about five feet in the air, upside down, and heading for the floor. I landed on my face and put my tooth through my lip. Then to add insult to injury, the instructor had my arm jammed up behind my back in a most undignified and painful manner, with the 'knife' digging into my back.
I never made that mistake again!


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## weird (11 May 2009)

bunyip said:


> I also did Zen Do Kai, as did two of my kids. I don't know how it compares to other karate styles as it's the only style I did. But I wouldn't like to have been any street thug who tried to push his weight around with some of those black belt instructors at our club.....there were some pretty capable boys among them.




I did Zen Do Kai for a while, then the club became Kyokushin, this was also in Queensland ... I then moved to another city and continued to train in Kyokushin. I found alot of similarities between the styles, also with Shotokan. Karate was cool, and probably most martial arts are the same due to the exercise, discipline and social aspect.

Over the last few years, I had been thinking of getting back into it again, actually looking at Judo, but there aren't really any clubs nearby. As you get older, you have more responsibilities, and time is really a precious commodity. 

Doing something with your kids is very cool, which is why I may look into it more in the future.


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## tech/a (11 May 2009)

I think everyone men women and children should become proficient in a disipline. Regardless of which one.
It gives you a confidence,and for kids who are silent achievers a hidden respect from their peers.

Like many here I regret not devoting more time to my chosen disipline.


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## moXJO (11 May 2009)

My brother was one of the first westerners to train in the Shaolin temple in China back in the 80s. His western trainer over here was a real asshat though. 
I trained through a few martial arts. And when it comes to effectiveness, it really comes down to the person not the art. There are also a lot of idiot trainers which will teach you stupid beliefs they hold, thinking it will make you stronger. A lot do more long term damage to your body, then if you were to get beaten up once every 6 months.

 Kick/boxing is one of the fastest ways of blooding yourself for a street confrontation. Imo 6 months boxing is = to 1-2 years of most martial arts. More for what you learn in the hard lessons in the ring. Just the conditioning will put you miles in front.

With the inclusion of BJJ, Judo or even MMA (considering they take a bit out of everything).

I've been unlucky enough to be in too many street fights, thanks to living in an area with to much metal in the air. And not ones that were in the safety of pub or club. 

The last was when the next door neighbor caught some guys breaking into his car. I heard him screaming and ran out to be greeted by 6 guys pounding into him. Lucky for me he ran away up the backyard once I stepped up to dance yeah thanks for leaving me with that mess mate if you’re reading. I really like the taste of steel caps and sporting the panda look.

One thing that often gets overlooked. If you stop training, after 2years or so there is a pretty big shift in ability in the body. But the mind thinks you are still in peak form. Doesn’t sound like much till you get caught out overestimating your abilities.

For now I have been studying under the art of Lazy. I am pretty sure I have it perfected but always strive to achieve less. I'm sure I would be 4th dan if I could be bothered checking.


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## hunter and co (13 May 2009)

lesm said:


> But, then aren't espousing another myth that martial arts only teaches people to punch in the air.
> 
> All forms of fighting sports have their strengths and weaknesses. Discussion of this is meaningful, otherwise it comes down to mine is better than yours.
> 
> ...



 One last try, Karate TWD ect practice pulling there punch,they punch and kick the air .when they get hit they fall down because they are not use to it.Go to some of the early UFC tapes where people put kung Fu karate and TWD on show and see it exposed.  I think on forums sometime try to win disagreement rather than learn,  just a thought.


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## awg (13 May 2009)

I gave up unfortunately as a youth, cause I studied a real hard school, and got sick of being belted, especially a broken ankle.

stood me in excellent stead though, when i have been confronted.

My sister however, continued her study.

She is now a 3rd Dan in Okinawan Goju Ryu karate. (30yrs study)

her specialty is groin kicks and wrist locks.

she is also immensly strong from various other training regimes, but looks like any other middle aged gal.

The reason she persisted is she has been assaulted, threatened, spat on, exposed at, at least 10 times (that she has told me about)....but not for a long time...she has had cause to nearly need to several times, but guys wisely backed off.

She finds it very difficult to find any suitable female training partners.

She gets sick of training with 100kg male black belts.

Occassionaly she has to humiliate them in training if they try to bash her about too much. 

Its the surprise element..if you attacked her now, you would probably need to king hit her straight to the ground...or your nuts would be squashed b4 you knew what was happening...guys are'nt generally thinking about that


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## lookout (13 May 2009)

Jack Payback said:


> Judo and Aikido and their parent style Ju-Jitsu are all good for people without much strength as opposed to their attackers i.e. women and children against a larger foe.
> 
> These styles don't require strength, but use the opponents' body and motion against themselves. I preferred these styles as opposed to strike fighting as I tended to use less energy and got less tired, also the floor is a really good weapon and can do a lot of damage to an opponent!
> 
> Kung Fu offers a lot of the same techniques.




We have a good local Judo club and I'm keeping it in mind if the kids get bored with TKD in future. I'm expecting their attention to shift to other interests in their teenage years - might be a good time to add in a different  style.

I agree with peoples comments that you need to feel the impacts to become physically and emotionally desensitized, but I thought most clubs did contact sparring? Taking a lot of hits to the head as in boxing doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 

My youngest hasn't started TKD yet and I've recently noticed that other boys grab his collar and so on and he doesn't put up any resistance - just stands there and takes it, unaware of the chimp-like domination patterns being set up. Time to start training every night at home until that shi* stops


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## Splint (13 May 2009)

I did Seido Karate for a few years before getting sick of the repetative nature of learning stuff that has little relevence to real world situations. Moved into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu after that and love it. As with any style it has its drawbacks but overall it's a very effcetive art, and particularly well suited to people who can't rely on brute force to win a fight.

I also did a bit of reality based standup (shootfighting) and after doing both traditional and reality based, I'll never waste my time with traditional standup martial arts again.

The prominence of BJJ in no rules fighting is testimony to its' effectiveness. There is no comparison of effectiveness for female self defence between stand up martial arts and ground fighting. With standup, brute force usually wins, with grappling skill is the main factor with brute force being very much a secondary issue. Many attacks in grappling can be done from the Guard Position which is position a rapist attempts to get into and the position a gappler avoids. This video shows why, allthough the guy on the bottom is clearly bigger and stronger than the guy in his guard, that makes little difference, the little guy could easily do this to the big guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDuMHyaO34 More http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clmu1u3fGv0 And more again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aML_VGJhLyE

BJJ is not for everyone but I think women who do Karate or boxing are just giving themselves a false sense of security, they really need to be looking at a grapple art.


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## maffu (13 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> One last try, Karate TWD ect practice pulling there punch,they punch and kick the air .when they get hit they fall down because they are not use to it.




This was what I found when I did karate as a youngster, I got bored of punching the air. We didnt even have bags or pads to hit.
Although this might be more a function of safety first western culture then the real art it self.

From what I have seen(in TV land) of Karate, TKD, Kung Fu grandmasters that have trained their lives in the traditional ways they are as tough as nails. They train by punching rocks, trees, fruit, walls and when they practise they dont hold back. They condition their body to take more impact then most humans believe possible.


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## maffu (13 May 2009)

Splint said:


> BJJ is not for everyone but I think women who do Karate or boxing are just giving themselves a false sense of security, they really need to be looking at a grapple art.




How does BJJ hold up in a multiple attacker kind of scenario? I like watching MMA and have seen how effective BJJ is in the cage and I have considered taking it up when I move to the city next year. In reality for me, the most likely source of violence would be a bunch of drunk 15-18 year olds wondering the streets looking for a fight or mugging target. Are grappling arts like BJJ capable of dealing with this? Or is a striking art like Muay Thai more effective as you can deliver powerful distance strikes, and in close powerful elbows and knees.


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## awg (13 May 2009)

Splint said:


> The prominence of BJJ in no rules fighting is testimony to its' effectiveness. There is no comparison of effectiveness for female self defence between stand up martial arts and ground fighting. With standup, brute force usually wins, with grappling skill is the main factor with brute force being very much a secondary issue. Many attacks in grappling can be done from the Guard Position which is position a rapist attempts to get into and the position a gappler avoids. This video shows why, allthough the guy on the bottom is clearly bigger and stronger than the guy in his guard, that makes little difference, the little guy could easily do this to the big guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDuMHyaO34 More http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clmu1u3fGv0 And more again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aML_VGJhLyE
> 
> BJJ is not for everyone but I think women who do Karate or boxing are just giving themselves a false sense of security, they really need to be looking at a grapple art.




I agree BJJ is great, but that first vid cracked me up (the missionary)

my Sis expressed a particular distaste for on the ground grappling work, with one bloke after the other

all part of it, same as the bruises, if you want to be effective

very blokey culture in the martial arts..I dont know whether u r male or female Splint?

her boyfriend of the time was  5th dan, 115kg, very intelligent man actually, scary though, we did yoga together, he would often give me defensive technique tips.

I liked finger breaking best..well after my real preference to run away very fast


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## moXJO (13 May 2009)

maffu said:


> How does BJJ hold up in a multiple attacker kind of scenario? I like watching MMA and have seen how effective BJJ is in the cage and I have considered taking it up when I move to the city next year. In reality for me, the most likely source of violence would be a bunch of drunk 15-18 year olds wondering the streets looking for a fight or mugging target. Are grappling arts like BJJ capable of dealing with this? Or is a striking art like Muay Thai more effective as you can deliver powerful distance strikes, and in close powerful elbows and knees.




A lot of places train MMA which just takes the best bits out of striking and grappling styles. 

Going on the ground results in lots of kicks to the head (and all over really ) if fighting multiple attackers. And trust me; once they taste blood, and the adrenalin is pumping, any worry of seriously maiming you or even killing you is at the opposite end of their minds. 
If you get stopped and drop, just remember to roll and run till you get your head together. Getting up as fast as possible is very important. Even getting grabbed while standing is not good if the others move quickly. 

Another note don't go hitting heavy bags bare knuckle. Even going hard on a heavy bag every day isn’t good for you. You only need to spar once a week (boxing, kick/boxing) as well. You should look after your body as much as possible when training. Some instructors will do more damage than any good.


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## disarray (13 May 2009)

maffu said:


> How does BJJ hold up in a multiple attacker kind of scenario? Are grappling arts like BJJ capable of dealing with this? Or is a striking art like Muay Thai more effective as you can deliver powerful distance strikes, and in close powerful elbows and knees.




i think grappling skills are a powerful arsenal to possess but they have some severe drawbacks in real word scenarios. for one they are greatly impacted by multiple attackers, secondly they are too "controlled" in the sense that bites, eye gouges, scratches, nut grabs, rakes and other real world techniques aren't employed.

to be truly effective in a street self defence scenario you need to employ ultra-violence. if your mouth finds flesh, bite it, if your fingers find eyes, gouge them, if you have nails, rake. the body is a weapon and everything is a target. no martial art that i have encountered or trained (outside ninjutsu) takes these simple, natural and utterly devastating techniques into account. even with ninjutsu it was more along the lines of traditional karate, i was just fortunate enough to have a kick ass, slightly unhinged, special forces sensei whose taught a no holds barred approach to self defence.

if you truly want your kids / chicks / vulnerable loved ones to learn real self defence and not spend years doing gradings, conditioning, sparring and tournaments, you really need to focus on the nature of the old ultra-violence. it's easy to learn, it follows natural principles and it is the most effective method of defence available. the only drawback is that its inspiration is hate and rage and these days people aren't trained to tap into, or even acknowledge this facet of humanity. it's not PC.

society shuns violence because it doesn't enforce discipline. the sad fact is the two of them together are a potent and positive force for anyone who chooses to employ them.


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## mayk (13 May 2009)

disarray said:


> society shuns violence because it doesn't enforce discipline. the sad fact is the two of them together are a potent and positive force for anyone who chooses to employ them.



This was your post number 666


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## moXJO (13 May 2009)

disarray said:


> i think grappling skills are a powerful arsenal to possess but they have some severe drawbacks in real word scenarios. for one they are greatly impacted by multiple attackers, secondly they are too "controlled" in the sense that bites, eye gouges, scratches, nut grabs, rakes and other real world techniques aren't employed.
> 
> to be truly effective in a street self defence scenario you need to employ ultra-violence. if your mouth finds flesh, bite it, if your fingers find eyes, gouge them, if you have nails, rake. the body is a weapon and everything is a target. no martial art that i have encountered or trained (outside ninjutsu) takes these simple, natural and utterly devastating techniques into account. even with ninjutsu it was more along the lines of traditional karate, i was just fortunate enough to have a kick ass, slightly unhinged, special forces sensei whose taught a no holds barred approach to self defence.
> 
> .




I met Paul Vanak years ago in the US he specialized in biting (I think it was a Philippine art). Really nice guy with some good real world techniques
Everything you wrote above is right. I was going to mention it. But you never know who's going to sue you these days, and I didn't want to sound too gory: 
Bites to the face are very effective if your grabbed while standing and fighting multiples. Just hug and chow down.
When it comes down to it, it's the ugly stuff that works.
Nut hits don’t often work though, maybe the adrenalin. Bit of a 50/50

Disclaimer Not a recommendation and should not be used by anyone.


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## disarray (13 May 2009)

mayk said:


> This was your post number 666




yeah i noticed that. suppose i'm due for confession


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## lesm (13 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> One last try, Karate TWD ect practice pulling there punch,they punch and kick the air .when they get hit they fall down because they are not use to it.Go to some of the early UFC tapes where people put kung Fu karate and TWD on show and see it exposed.  I think on forums sometime try to win disagreement rather than learn,  just a thought.




Hunter,

Yay..............now I agree with you......a little more information makes a difference. 

Sometimes it's not about winning or losing, but getting the discussion into a position where it can be that rather than just making unqualified statements.

Quite a number of years ago I was involved in a series of discussions related to young/inexperienced martial artists being in hurt in situations where they really needed to defend themselves and should have been capable of handling it.

The discussion revolved around the issue of why they were getting hurt. In short what we discovered was that some of them had become so used to pulling punches, kicks, or even just missing, (punching/kicking the air to use Hunter's expression), that they couldn't follow through or apply their skills in a practical sense when they needed it.

In some of the early schools, depending on the technique, they did what was referred to as 'free fighting', but with no contact, unless there was an accident or error of judgement.  At that time there was very little or no contact fighting with gloves or padding, which some schools used or others progressed to. Equivalent to boxers sparring.

This didn't necessarily apply to all students, therefore there is a danger of over generalising. Neither can you over generalise across the various martial arts techniques.

Each technique has its strength and weaknesses, but whether or not boxing is superior is debateable. Part of this is dependent on the skills and abilities of the particular exponent.  A number of senior martial artists that I am familiar with have trained in more than one style or tried various styles and have developed their own style based on what they have learned from their training. This may even include boxing and/or grappling.

For example, if you have no in-close fighting skills and let a competent boxer get in close, especially with bare knuckles, he will cause a lot of damage. Doesn't need to be a world class boxer.

Different styles of martial arts are better suited, based on the core technique, to fight against different style of fighitng than others. But, a skilled and intelligent fighter should be able to pick whether they are up against someone who is trained and adapt, based on what they observe. Going in blindly and not observing your oppene tis good way to get your butt kicked, especially if you are over confident in your abilities.

Even within a fighting style there are differences. For example, the difference between a street fighter turned boxer and a true/real boxer.

In the late sixties, early seventies Wally Lewis (if my memory serves me correctly) had two boxers reach the finals of Golden Gloves. One was a street fighter turned boxer(the brother of a friend of mine) and the other a boxer. Wally could only train one for the final fight. Could ask people to guess, which one he picked and who was Golden Gloves Champion that year. The answer should be obvious, the boxer. Some street fighters still retain their old habits and you can see it come to the fore when they fight in the ring. Against a highly skilled boxer they are vulnerable, as the boxer will box them, staying in control. Doesn't mean they can't win fights, but the skill level they are up against can make a big difference.

One example of boxing vs martial arts. Again from memory, in the early seventies in Ringwood, Victoria, a young martial artist with six months training kicked the butt of the then Victorian (light-heavyweight or middleweight) boxing champion. Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke, if you knew him and the people he hung out with, you would understand the comment, and he started the fight. He just didn't know anything about the guy he picked on. He didn't want it to be too widely known. Took a while to find out who flattened him, but we p***ed ourselves laughing when we did find out.

If you want to discus and compare different styles of martial arts, including there strengths and weakenesses compared to other martial sports that's can be an intersting discussion.

One of the dilemas that has occurred during/over the years is that a number of people have started up martial arts schools, which may good for earning money, but the quality of the teaching and training has been sub-standard.

I have a friend who runs his own school, small in size, but he wants to keep it that way and focus on quality rather than quantity. He goes to Hong Kong every year to further his own training and skills development. We have various discussions on the different styles of martial sports, including their comparative strengths and weaknesses. We also have discussions related to the history of the different styles, as well as on the psychological or philosophical aspects.

One comment he has made to me, is along the lines of 'you old school guys worry me more than the new school guys....you go in hard'. There have been noticeable changes in the approach to training over the years and a level of softening in a number of areas. Some of this may be more applicable to some styles rather than others.

I think that you will find that people are happy to discuss the merits of the different sports, answer questions. Alternatively, give an example of where you think different martial sports are weak compared to boxing or whatever you choose.

Cheers.


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## Bobby (13 May 2009)

disarray said:


> i think grappling skills are a powerful arsenal to possess but they have some severe drawbacks in real word scenarios. for one they are greatly impacted by multiple attackers, secondly they are too "controlled" in the sense that bites, eye gouges, scratches, nut grabs, rakes and other real world techniques aren't employed.
> 
> to be truly effective in a street self defence scenario you need to employ ultra-violence. if your mouth finds flesh, bite it, if your fingers find eyes, gouge them, if you have nails, rake. the body is a weapon and everything is a target. no martial art that i have encountered or trained (outside ninjutsu) takes these simple, natural and utterly devastating techniques into account. even with ninjutsu it was more along the lines of traditional karate, i was just fortunate enough to have a kick ass, slightly unhinged, special forces sensei whose taught a no holds barred approach to self defence.
> 
> ...




Well said !
I've been in heaps of blues , survived by being terrible to those who attacked me , never felt the damage I suffered till later , guess being a fast big powerfully built bloke helped


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## nunthewiser (14 May 2009)

so who would win a blue in the carpark ?

mike tyson or jackie chan when both in there prime


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## nunthewiser (14 May 2009)

lol that was a sincere question actually as to guage your thoughts on whether training and discipline or training and pure vicioussness would win


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## Splint (14 May 2009)

maffu said:


> How does BJJ hold up in a multiple attacker kind of scenario? I like watching MMA and have seen how effective BJJ is in the cage and I have considered taking it up when I move to the city next year. In reality for me, the most likely source of violence would be a bunch of drunk 15-18 year olds wondering the streets looking for a fight or mugging target. Are grappling arts like BJJ capable of dealing with this? Or is a striking art like Muay Thai more effective as you can deliver powerful distance strikes, and in close powerful elbows and knees.




BJJ doesn't stand up to multiple attackers as well as stand up because of limited ability to move around and the exposure factor of being kicked by the other attacker. With stand up styles you can continually position yourself so that one attacker is behind the other attacker so you are effectively only fighting one person. On the up side if it does go to the ground it should be quick to break the attackers knee, shoulder, ankle, elbow etc. Idealy you should combine real world stand up with ground fighting which gives you techniques for any scenario. Have a look at this, it's a flying armbar,  the intent is to hyper extend and break the opponents elbow, I've done this myself and I think if someone saw you do it in the street they would think twice about taking you on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw
Someone in another thread asked if I'm a girl, I'm not I'm a guy 65kg 5'8" but I still do ok grappling guys 20+kg heaver than me, it's all skill and technique. The thing that bothers me about standup is that unless you are unusually skilled, are bigger and stronger than your opponant or have the benefit of being a full blown psychopath in a fight situation then you're going to struggle. BJJ is a very blokey sport and I can see why many women prefer not to do it, but I firmly beleive it is the best (any grappling style is good) female self defence.


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## moXJO (14 May 2009)

lesm said:


> One example of boxing vs martial arts.
> 
> Cheers.




It's one of those things where it can go either way. And forum threads are full of arguments touting that one art is more effective than another. When really it is down to the person reacting in the situation. A few seconds either way or the end result changes. Fighting in an awkward range for the opponent can do wonders. But pure violence usually pushes through.

I once watched a very skilled martial artist fight 3 guys (locals at a pub) and he touched them all up with some amazing moves. He was very in control of the situation and it was impressive to watch. They legged it, and then this guy walks across the street and just starts attacking wildly and with a lot of ferocity which put the martial artist on the back foot. The guy managed to bludgeon the MA to the ground and proceed to pummel him. It was strange to watch as you could see the shift in control from the outset. And it’s possible the MA mentally had a moment of weakness and doubt. They guy looked to have no experience in any type of art, but his violent attacking won the day. MA was trying counters and then locks but he was just beaten back by the onslaught of the attacks. But I'm sure the MA would be better prepared if it happened again.

As for having a base in boxing I believe the initial conditioning and sparing develops your body and mind to react better than the majority of MA in a similar time frame(if your just starting out). Also as a stand alone it works very well in street fights. But it is an incomplete art in itself. And once you develop enough skill you can cross over to another MA comfortably.  

MMA is the better bet as they take what works from a number of styles and it can be adapted for the street easily. But sometimes a school is hard to find though. So Kick/boxing, Judo, BJJ or similar art is usually in most cities. Boxing is at most Police boys clubs and so is Judo or JJ.


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## hunter and co (14 May 2009)

lesm said:


> Hunter,
> 
> Yay..............now I agree with you......a little more information makes a difference.
> 
> ...



 I didn't point out any fighting form as better than the other I pointed out if you dont fight but play you are in trouble the first time you get hit.  When I have more time I will give a Full answer. Here is some homework for whoever wishs to take it up. Search and find the story of Bruce Lee's ONE AND ONLY fight. He was shocked at how hard it was to defeat a real opponent. I believed that was when he added  boxing to his art.


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## mazzatelli1000 (14 May 2009)

hunter and co said:


> I didn't point out any fighting form as better than the other I pointed out if you dont fight but play you are in trouble the first time you get hit.  When I have more time I will give a Full answer. Here is some homework for whoever wishs to take it up. Search and find the story of Bruce Lee's ONE AND ONLY fight. He was shocked at how hard it was to defeat a real opponent. I believed that was when he added  boxing to his art.




Are you referring to a challenge from a martial artist who ran around the dojo and did not fight before Bruce could pin him.

From here he decided to devote more time to body conditioning?

Anyway I have seen this sort of topic you are moving on to before - could open a whole can of worms....


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## Wysiwyg (14 May 2009)

Bruce Lee movies and in particular the fight scenes put thousands if not millions of youths (and adults) into dojos around the world. If only to be as half cut or skillful.

Bruce Lee versus 20 angry blackbelts.


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## moXJO (14 May 2009)

Gotta love bruce lee. 
But heres one without the chory and twice the meathead


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## lesm (14 May 2009)

A couple of quotes from a FAQ on Bruce's life.


> Bruce Lee Kicks Ass in Real Life
> 
> These are a few of the fights that Bruce participated in the ring and out.
> 
> ...






> What aspect(s) of Bruce Lee's character made him so famous?
> 
> The question remains in many people's mind: What made Bruce Lee so famous? There are several Martial Arts movies; why is Bruce the one remembered for Chinese Gung-Fu. Bruce would work himself very, very hard, until he perfected what he was working on. He was a perfectionist. Another aspect of his success is his ability to really kick some ass. Bruce remains undefeated throughout his life, except for a lost fight when he was 13 years old (this prompted Bruce to begin taking Martial Arts lessons). People jealous of Bruce, or people just thinking they could beat him, would frequently approach Bruce, tap their foot on the ground (this symbolizes a challenge), and they would begin to fight. Once during the filming of Enter the Dragon, an extra aproached Bruce, tapped his foot on the ground, and they began to fight. The extra had some real skill, but instead of trying to beat Bruce, he was really trying to hurt him. When Bruce realized this, he began to unleash his lightning quick speed and powerful moves; he smashed the guy right agains the wall. Bruce later said that he had never kicked a guy so hard before. He really beat the guy up. But unusually, after the fight was over, Bruce told the extra to get back to his spot and act. He never fired him.


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## moXJO (14 May 2009)

On Bruce lee. I remember one guy being interviewed. He said he was with Bruce when they went back to his house, and somehow a guy had managed to get into his backyard. The backyard was enclosed by walls or cliffs or something and they had no idea how he got in there. Anyway this guy had climbed in to challenge Bruce to a fight and he was quickly beaten to a pulp.


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## kotim (14 May 2009)

Theirs an old saying about more things under heaven and earth etc, little story, I used to do silat, imagine seeing the following as an example but of course not the only example.

Guru sitting on the ground instructs the senior grades about learning the 'INTERNAL' path very important becasue when you get old etc you can't kick and punch like young man and he gave example.  

He asked senior student to attack him at full force, guru was sitting down.  Senior student launches into attack on the guru, moment after attack is launched student is thrown backwards through the air for about 15 meters and slides another 10 meters and hits the wall.  Guru did not move the whole time but used his internal force to acheive this outcome. No tricks nothing.  

Is hard to believe but there were so many things that I and friends experienced during our training from some of these gurus especially in relation to healing injuries, let alone how to hurt and kill a man.

I have met people througout Indonesia who have trained 10-12 hours a day since before they started school and have trained for 50-70 years.

The fact is that there are  people out there who are so deadly but due to humbleness mostly, you wil never meet them and know, but once in a while you get to see one of these persons show just a little bit of what they can do and then you understand the old legends that you thought were myth and impossible are not all myths and not at all impossible.  I have friends who continued on and are much higher up now and the things they tell me that they are shown are things that many people would not belieive.

Anyway it is fun and interesting to discuss such things from time to time.


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## maffu (15 May 2009)

Splint said:


> Have a look at this, it's a flying armbar,  the intent is to hyper extend and break the opponents elbow, I've done this myself and I think if someone saw you do it in the street they would think twice about taking you on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw




Thanks to everyone who replied to my question about BJJ in multiple attacker situations.

Splint, I have seen flying armbars before, they are awesome. For you to do it in a real situation is interesting, you must have alot of experience to pull off such a risky move. 
In response to that youtube video, an even more impressive move by Chonan is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267i7rKeECA&feature=related
He is busy getting his butt kicked for a few minutes, he is getting pummeled by Anderson Silva who is an absolute champion (now holds the record for most undefeated MMA fights in a row). Then all of a sudden he pulls off the flying scissor heel hook and wins against all the odds. 

disarray, that was also very interesting about what you said in regards to ultraviolence. I believe Krav Maga is based in this principal. It is truly no holds barred as it developed for survival in war and terrorism situations. Modern martial arts that are now developed into sports need rules and the violence is diminished, so practising in such situations may not be as useful in true self defence.


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## Wysiwyg (15 May 2009)

moXJO said:


> Gotta love bruce lee.
> But heres one without the chory and twice the meathead




That is wicked. The more they get whacked the more they like it. 

How do you feel about that? "it`s gonna be a rush".


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## moXJO (15 May 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> That is wicked. The more they get whacked the more they like it.
> 
> How do you feel about that? "it`s gonna be a rush".




I feel sorry for the black belt that got his face crunched

If you are wondering what your average fight looks like then look up *felony fights *on youtube. While most are sickening and I think the producers are scum, you do get to see what a high % of the population will resort to. And how a lot of fights play out. Its mainly hits to the head till you go down then it can get nasty from there.
I'm sure a skinhead bites a chunk out of some guys face in one.


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## Old Mate (16 May 2009)

Hey I'm interested in taking classes in some form of martial arts, however I have pretty severe asthma and can't do much physical exercise without becoming out of breath. Basically I can't run more than 200m (not sprinting) before I can't breathe. I can usually recover fairly quickly though.

So anyway does anyone have some recommendations for a form of martial arts that I could participate in effectively?


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## Splint (16 May 2009)

maffu said:


> Splint, I have seen flying armbars before, they are awesome. For you to do it in a real situation is interesting, you must have alot of experience to pull off such a risky move.




I've not used BJJ in a street fight before, I much prefer to walk away based on the idea that there is little to gain and much to loose from street fighting. Here in Geelong there has been way too much brutal violence in the streets over the last few years, a number of people have been literally bashed to death, all drug and alchohol related.

That was an awesome video on Chonan, it highlights the ability for a grappler to quickly incapacitate a bigger stronger attacker, that's part of the reason I went down the BJJ path since I'm not big or strong enough to be a good standup fighter.

I'm a blue belt in BJJ, so not overly experienced and still much to learn. My take on the multiple attacker theory is that most people would be using 100% of their resources to deal with a single attacker and it is often 50/50 as to who will win (unless it's a muscle bound ape beating up a scrawny weedy type). If a second attacker was to join in there's almost no hope for the single fighter to win regardless of how much training he has had. If I were forced into a multiple attacker situation I would still prefer BJJ (only a personal opinion, others may disagree with me) because of the grapplers ability to quickly incapacitate one attacker then move on to the next. Sure there is the exposure to kicks and punches from the other attacker but you'll cop much the same thing in stand up allthough more of it over a longer time span. A lot of people may recognise some of the moves from watching UFC and youtube etc. but only a grappler would really know how to execute a good escape from an joint lock.

In my oppinion,the best option in a multiple attacker situation is to make like the Gingerbread Man and run, run run as fast as you can. 

Cheers
Splint


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## Dowdy (16 May 2009)

I feel i have to tell about my bad experience with a martial arts school i went to


I used to do *WING TSUN* (different school from _WING CHUN_).

At first it was OK, learn new thing and then develop some friendships but then we got told off by the teacher for talking, even though we weren't talking when he was - only when we did our drills. So it's not like we were interrupting.

Then he tells me off for being a few minutes late.

I figured this wasn't enjoyable anymore so i quit.

Then this is where the trouble happened. I quit about 6 months ago and then about a month ago they charge me $70 (direct debit) to renew my membership, even though i already quit months ago! I called them up complaining and they told me you have to call the head office in Sydney to quit the renewal fee. Just one big scam to steal my money

So my advice is *AVOID THE WING TSUN SCHOOL IN ST KILDA!!! *

Wing Tsun is a different school from Wing Chun and Wing Chun has members from this forum who can vouch for it.

Anyways, right now i'm doing kickboxing, which is way more enjoyable then my wing tsun experience


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## disarray (17 May 2009)

Old Mate said:
			
		

> Basically I can't run more than 200m (not sprinting) before I can't breathe. I can usually recover fairly quickly though.




swim. swimming is an excellent exercise for breath regulation and i have both family and friends who were CURED of asthma (no ****, cured) by swimming. if nothing else it is probably the best low impact, cardio, full body muscle exercise available.



			
				Splint said:
			
		

> In my oppinion,the best option in a multiple attacker situation is to make like the Gingerbread Man and run, run run as fast as you can.




any fight avoided is a fight won. pride isn't worth it (but only age can teach you that).


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## mazzatelli1000 (17 May 2009)

Dowdy said:


> I feel i have to tell about my bad experience with a martial arts school i went to
> 
> 
> I used to do *WING TSUN* (different school from _WING CHUN_).
> ...




LOL
I don't think this has anything to do with the style/system - instructor was a bit strict with you so maybe the strict disciplinary teaching style didn't bode well with you? 
The charging of fees issue is ridiculous though

As always, there is always black sheep in any family

Got nothing against Wing Tsun school, Leung Ting is still a Yip Man student after all. I would be careful with over generalisations such as yours.


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## mazzatelli1000 (17 May 2009)

kotim said:


> Is hard to believe but there were so many things that I and friends experienced during our training from some of these gurus especially in relation to healing injuries, let alone how to hurt and kill a man.
> 
> I have met people througout Indonesia who have trained 10-12 hours a day since before they started school and have trained for 50-70 years.
> 
> The fact is that there are  people out there who are so deadly but due to humbleness mostly, you wil never meet them and know, but once in a while you get to see one of these persons show just a little bit of what they can do and then you understand the old legends that you thought were myth and impossible are not all myths and not at all impossible.  I have friends who continued on and are much higher up now and the things they tell me that they are shown are things that many people would not belieive.




Yes, my general experience while in Asia, was that these guys trained all day, every day. They only made enough for a living as most already had properties passed down to them.

The internal aspects of the art need to be felt to be believed, and unlike in Western culture where one could get sued etc - masters/instructors won't hesitate to drop a hit on you for demonstration.

I will also say though most will avoid a fight, because in Asia losing face is a VERY big deal. Plenty of stories of great fighters who have been ambushed later and stabbed/shot in retaliation for losing a fight.

This ain't like back in the old days where chivalry and honour was the code. Its a jungle out there
LOL


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## moXJO (17 May 2009)

Splint said:


> I'm a blue belt in BJJ, so not overly experienced and still much to learn. My take on the multiple attacker theory is that most people would be using 100% of their resources to deal with a single attacker and it is often 50/50 as to who will win (unless it's a muscle bound ape beating up a scrawny weedy type). If a second attacker was to join in there's almost no hope for the single fighter to win regardless of how much training he has had. If I were forced into a multiple attacker situation I would still prefer BJJ (only a personal opinion, others may disagree with me) because of the grapplers ability to quickly incapacitate one attacker then move on to the next.
> Cheers
> Splint




Multiple attackers don't always fight well together (as a unit with a single objective). When they do you get murdered. But more often there is one or two that have an idea and the rest are not too sure of themselves. It's about buying seconds, so you can attack one without the others grouping you at once. Either through positioning yourself in relation to the rest or using whatever other means as you can.
If you can put them (as a group) off balance and only acting in singular units you stand a better chance. Once they surround and grab you, then you have to be willing to do what it takes.
You also need to avoid doing unnecessary things that waste time and gives them a moment to gather themselves. Don't let them build momentum and make an example out of the first guy.

Of course if its avoidable just run away as dental work alone sucks


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## Dowdy (17 May 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> LOL
> I don't think this has anything to do with the style/system - instructor was a bit strict with you so maybe the strict disciplinary teaching style didn't bode well with you?
> The charging of fees issue is ridiculous though
> 
> ...




It wasn't really a generalisation. I specifically mentioned the StKilda which is the only Wing Tsun school in Melbourne.

As with other school, i can't comment on their instructors but their fees remain the same - ie.scam your money


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## GumbyLearner (17 May 2009)

I noticed there was a guy called Kimbo Slice who didn't last long in the MMA cage but he is bloody good in a Backyard Queensberry style. Only one guy has beaten him Queensberry style and that was a cop from Boston. 

Kimbo Slice - The Heart of a Lion


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## Old Mate (17 May 2009)

Thanks for the tip Disarray, I'll give it a shot.


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## maffu (23 May 2009)

Splint said:


> That was an awesome video on Chonan, it highlights the ability for a grappler to quickly incapacitate a bigger stronger attacker, that's part of the reason I went down the BJJ path since I'm not big or strong enough to be a good standup fighter.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2SqIkt0E7o
This is possibly the best example of a small man using BJJ against a big man.
A 70kg guy taking down a 180kg guy is something you will not see very often.
Butterbean is a world champion heavy weight boxxer, and has won fights in MMA and Kickboxxing  so he is not just some fat man who can not fight.


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## PitoyNoel (24 May 2018)

Hi
Does anyone know of any qualified Ninjutsu instructors in Toowoomba Queensland? There are a few in Brisbane, but I don't see the point in driving an hour an a half for a lesson that only runs for an hour or more, especially with the cost of fuel these days.


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## tech/a (24 May 2018)

Not related to your question but last year I took up Martial arts again after 35 yr lay off.
Took a while to find the one I thought best for me at my age.
Found it and love it. Serious street defense.

Krav Maga.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AABE268B84B125D7BD5FAABE268B84B1&&FORM=VRDGAR


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## PitoyNoel (26 May 2018)

tech/a said:


> Not related to your question but last year I took up Martial arts again after 35 yr lay off.
> Took a while to find the one I thought best for me at my age.
> Found it and love it. Serious street defense.
> 
> ...




Toowoomba has 2 of them and when I went to join, both already stopped training.. I was also interested in them and watched the videos.


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## tech/a (26 May 2018)

That’s a great pity.
No matter what discipline you train in you should also
Seek out Krav
This is serious implementation of aspects of many 
Forms of martial arts.

Great for those without martial arts training but
Amazing for those who have.
You’ll love it


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## Melmel (28 May 2018)

I know 1 guy. Not sure if still teaching. He be overseas for many years last I hear. You can email he at gp115@hotmail.com


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## brisrocket (18 September 2018)

Some interesting discussion on this thread. I'm interested to hear from those actively training in various styles currently. I am an active Taekwondo Instructor in Brisbane and am passionate in teaching practical self-defence - not just the fancy or fun side of martial arts, but the reality that comes with why we train. My club (Albany Creek Taekwondo) is part of a larger Australian wide school which is competing in the World Cup this year and World Champs early next year.

So for those training, can I pleas ask 2 things:
1) how are you finding it (what keeps you motivated to keep going) and
2) what attracted you to it in the first place?


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## tech/a (19 September 2018)

See my post above on Krav
I started very late after 5 yrs of Wing Chun when 20-25
I’m drawn to Krav for practicality it’s martial Arts put to immediate use with immediate affect

The support and friendship keep me coming back

https://www.facebook.com/100003542225461/posts/1665179310276794/

I train with These guys
A great club run by Shane Neville


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