# List of companies in the options market



## hesitationkills (4 January 2012)

Hi all,
I am new to options trading so am just playing offline for now. From what I can see there are only a selection of companies trading on the options side of things?? Assuming I haven't misunderstood is there somewhere I can get a list of all companies that are actively traded.
Finally from what I see even very basic/simple options trading makes more sense to me than traditionally buying and selling shares directly which is what I am used to. Is there a reason it is not real popular method of investing to the every day aussie?

Thanks


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## So_Cynical (4 January 2012)

hesitationkills said:


> Hi all,
> I am new to options trading so am just playing offline for now. From what I can see there are only a selection of companies trading on the options side of things?? Assuming I haven't misunderstood is there somewhere I can get a list of all companies that are actively traded.
> Finally from what I see even very basic/simple options trading makes more sense to me than traditionally buying and selling shares directly which is what I am used to. Is there a reason it is not real popular method of investing to the every day aussie?
> 
> Thanks




I did see a list once on the ASX site (cant find it now) but ETO's are restricted to mostly the top 50 stocks ASX50

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/markets/optionPrices.do?by=underlyingCode&underlyingCode=NWS

Bring up the page for any top 50 stock at the ASX site and right down near the very bottom of the page you will see a link to. 

'Exchange Traded Options
Options are available over the security NWS. View the option code list for more details.'


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

hesitationkills said:


> . Is there a reason it is not real popular method of investing to the every day aussie?




Beats the hell out of me, you can literally get 100% one day ROI without any leverage.


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## skyQuake (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Beats the hell out of me, you can literally get 100% one day ROI without any leverage.




And you can just as easily lose 80% every day for a week


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

skyQuake said:


> And you can just as easily lose 80% every day for a week




Only if you are really really dumb. And have some problem pulling out of a clearly bad position.


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## cutz (5 January 2012)

hesitationkills said:


> Assuming I haven't misunderstood is there somewhere I can get a list of all companies that are actively traded.




If you haven't got webiress get a copy of the fin review, there you will see all the series that have some liquidity.


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## wayneL (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Beats the hell out of me, you can literally get 100% one day ROI without any leverage.




Eh?

Without leverage?

Options are a derivative and leverage is intrinsic to how they work, whether that leverage is used or not.


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## wayneL (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Only if you are really really dumb. And have some problem pulling out of a clearly bad position.




If you are so smart, can you explain to me the advantages and disadvantages of options and futures for day trading and why you are using options instead of futures?


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## skyQuake (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Only if you are really really dumb. And have some problem pulling out of a clearly bad position.




Overnight gap on some OtM oppies close to expiry. Then you gotta cross most of the spread. Easy as pie


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

wayneL said:


> If you are so smart, can you explain to me the advantages and disadvantages of options and futures for day trading and why you are using options instead of futures?




Actually no, I'm not smart enough to answer that :

However I may not exactly be day trade either (depending on how you define it). My positions last from one to a few days.

I only started with options about 2-3 trading weeks ago and already I'm up 300% on my portfolio (no joking), so it can't be that bloody hard. Considering that no managed fund in stocks or property has gotten this sort of a return even cumulatively in the last decade...


I may move into futures in the future, just have to take it a bit slow and learn things properly. For now they look rather scary, overnight futures jump up and down wildly for seemingly no reason (or better to say I don't understand the reasons a lot of the time), whereas I feel much more confident predicting how the market is going to open the following day.

The same can be applied reasonably well to the ASX8 stocks, though I don't know about smaller companies.


Likewise when I said it's not leveraged, I meant that you can never be liable for more than what you put in (this is buying ETOs once again). So even though you may lose 80% if you very badly misread the market or something extreme and unexpected happens - at the very least you can't lose money you didn't have in the first place.


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## wayneL (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Actually no, I'm not smart enough to answer that :
> 
> However I may not exactly be day trade either (depending on how you define it). My positions last from one to a few days.
> 
> I only started with options about 2-3 trading weeks ago and already I'm up 300% on my portfolio (no joking), so it can't be that bloody hard. Considering that no managed fund in stocks or property has gotten this sort of a return even cumulatively in the last decade...




Well IF that's true, I'd like to be a fly on the wall over the next few months... but BTW, there is a quantum difference between trading chump change and a few hunfred million dollars. You are trying to compare elephants to insects.




> I may move into futures in the future, just have to take it a bit slow and learn things properly. For now they look rather scary, overnight futures jump up and down wildly for seemingly no reason (or better to say I don't understand the reasons a lot of the time), whereas I feel much more confident predicting how the market is going to open the following day.




Lord! Both futures and options are derivatives that derive their pricing from the underlying market... all are subject to gaps (don't be fooled by the staggered opening of the index)




> Likewise when I said it's not leveraged, I meant that you can never be liable for more than what you put in (this is buying ETOs once again). So even though you may lose 80% if you very badly misread the market or something extreme and unexpected happens - at the very least you can't lose money you didn't have in the first place.




It is still leveraged, though because you are long premium, you are not margined. Correct terminology is important.


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

Sure, but I doubt people who trade hundreds of millions of dollars would come asking for help here - or at the least people who are new to it would not be trading so much, so it hardly applies in OP's case.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice buddy. I know the index is staggered open, but that's the thing - I prefer to make predictions of what it will do at the time of open, without worrying about the noisy that happens overnight.

And sometimes it does do truly ridiculous things (in my view) overnight.


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## wayneL (5 January 2012)

Long options don't save you from that, 'cept that you can't go past zero



> Sure, but I doubt people who trade hundreds of millions of dollars would come asking for help here - or at the least people who are new to it would not be trading so much, so it hardly applies in OP's case.




I was referring to your 300% claim, not OPs query.


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

Well we'll see. Theoretically with ETOs, all you need to do is get more % difference correct than incorrect, and the more so the money you make. Isn't that right? 

For an index like the asx200, this is surely very possible, you must admit. I still have not had a single losing position out of about 7 I think.




wayneL said:


> I was referring to your 300% claim, not OPs query.




Well I'm not bragging saying I can be the world's most successful fund manager. But while I don't have much capital, surely this is the best way to build it up before investing in other things which have far more volume and liquidity?

Do you disagree?


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## wayneL (5 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Well we'll see. Theoretically with ETOs, all you need to do is get more % difference correct than incorrect, and the more so the money you make. Isn't that right?




Positive expectancy applies to any instrument. Although you claim to have had some early success, I wonder about your money management rules.



> For an index like the asx200, this is surely very possible, you must admit. I still have not had a single losing position out of about 7 I think.




XJO is no better or worse than any underlyer. It has some advantages over single stocks, but also disadvantages. The losers will come, trust me on that one. 





> Well I'm not bragging saying I can be the world's most successful fund manager. But while I don't have much capital, surely this is the best way to build it up before investing in other things which have far more volume and liquidity?
> 
> Do you disagree?




Yes and no. You are taking large risks relative to your pile of pennies, but piles of pennies don't turn into mountains of 100's without cranking up risk.

It depends how important that pot is to you. If it doesn't bother you if you blow it up, fine, stay on the punt, but at some stage you will need to review your risk parameters.

I maintain long only options is the least efficient way of directional trading.

Options are best for non-linear trading.


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## Starcraftmazter (5 January 2012)

So please once again elaborate as to what you recommend I do, within the context of taking advantage of the same positions as I am taking now.

Additionally, how much money would you say is enough before reviewing the risk parameters? $1m? More?


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## wayneL (6 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So please once again elaborate as to what you recommend I do, within the context of taking advantage of the same positions as I am taking now.




Well it sounds like you're swing trading XJO. You can keep doing what you're doing if you like, but delta for delta, futures are more efficient. Unless of course you are considering and trying to trade the non-linear aspects of options (AKA The Greeks).

But then you'd spreading and morphing rather than being long only all the time.



> Additionally, how much money would you say is enough before reviewing the risk parameters? $1m? More?




Your call, but from my perspective, but for e.g. - if I only had 50k and it was important not to lose it, I wouldn't be gunslinging like you are.


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## Starcraftmazter (6 January 2012)

wayneL said:


> Unless of course you are considering and trying to trade the non-linear aspects of options (AKA The Greeks).
> 
> But then you'd spreading and morphing rather than being long only all the time.




What do you mean by this?


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## mazzatelli (6 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What do you mean by this?




Do you know what happens to the value of your long call after a day, if the underlying hasn't moved at all and why this is so?


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## Starcraftmazter (7 January 2012)

mazzatelli said:


> Do you know what happens to the value of your long call after a day, if the underlying hasn't moved at all and why this is so?




This has never happened since the indexes always move even if only a little.

Are you referring to the time premium of options?


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## mazzatelli (7 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> This has never happened since the indexes always move even if only a little.




The initial question assumes no movement for simplicity. 



> Are you referring to the time premium of options?




I am asking you...


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## Grinder (7 January 2012)

Sorry to interupt this thread. Just stopped by to oggle Mazzas avatar.

.. as you were.


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## Starcraftmazter (7 January 2012)

mazzatelli said:


> The initial question assumes no movement for simplicity.
> 
> 
> 
> I am asking you...





Then I would guess that is the reason yes.


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## mazzatelli (8 January 2012)

mazzatelli said:


> Do you know what happens to the value of your long call after a day, if the underlying hasn't moved at all and why this is so?






Starcraftmazter said:


> Are you referring to the time premium of options?






Starcraftmazter said:


> Then I would guess that is the reason yes.




You guess? 
BTW, I asked what happens to the value of the call, you have just guessed time premium. 

Can you elaborate further if/how time premium affects the call option in the scenario I have outlined above? Are there other effects aside from what you have mentioned?



Grinder said:


> Sorry to interrupt this thread. Just stopped by to ogle Mazzas avatar.



Hey G, long time no see. Hope all is well, iirc you are a father now. Congrats!
As you know with my av's, I always aim to please


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## Starcraftmazter (8 January 2012)

Why specifically call? Calls and puts are the same as being affected by time premium aren't they? What I meant was that they go down in value as they close in on the expiration date due to loss of time in which they can become more valuable, etc.

I'm not aware of anything else that can affect their intrinsic value if the market stays flat, just like I'm not aware of why you are quizzing me on this.


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## wayneL (8 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Why specifically call? Calls and puts are the same as being affected by time premium aren't they? What I meant was that they go down in value as they close in on the expiration date due to loss of time in which they can become more valuable, etc.
> 
> I'm not aware of anything else that can affect their intrinsic value if the market stays flat, just like I'm not aware of why you are quizzing me on this.




Don't you mean 'extrinsic' value? 

You should do some more research.


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## mazzatelli (8 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Why specifically call? Calls and puts are the same as being affected by time premium aren't they?




I don't know, are they? 



> What I meant was that they go down in value as they close in on the expiration date due to loss of time in which they can become more valuable, etc.




Great, so this is one of the non-linear aspects wayneL alludes to. 
My question is then why 
1) go long options when its value changes in response to the underlying but has time ticking against you (among other things??)
2) instead of futures whose value changes in response to the underlying as well, but you don't incur this "penalty"?

And paying a "capped premium" for the call option (is this the same for put options??) is not an advantage over futures



> I'm not aware of anything else that can affect their intrinsic value if the market stays flat, just like I'm not aware of why you are quizzing me on this.




Well not intrinsic value, but to the other component of an option there is something where it's net effect is detrimental to your position, on top of declining time value.


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## Starcraftmazter (9 January 2012)

wayneL said:


> Don't you mean 'extrinsic' value?
> 
> You should do some more research.




All in good time, there are only so many hours in a day.



mazzatelli said:


> Great, so this is one of the non-linear aspects wayneL alludes to.
> My question is then why
> 1) go long options when its value changes in response to the underlying but has time ticking against you (among other things??)
> 2) instead of futures whose value changes in response to the underlying as well, but you don't incur this "penalty"?





Honestly, you probably give me too much credit wondering why I've chosen one over the other. All that happened is that my broker (finally) rolled out the ETO trading functionality on their website last month, and I thought I'd give it a go. It's worked out pretty well so far!! 

If you would like to suggest somewhere where I can trade futures instead, by all means let me know. But honestly, with asx200 options, when the market moves even 0.1% in the direction you bet, the massive amount of profit seems to outweigh everything else - so I have never noticed a decline in the value of the options I'm holding since the profits are very large in terms of ROI.

Granted I understand that you are saying one such as myself could be making equally as much and more in futures (is that what you are saying?), however I have done this for so little time that I have really not given it much thought - indeed most of my time is taken up by trying to predict market direction so as to not lose money just earned. I'm quite thrilled to be getting these sorts of profits quite frankly to want to change to something else so soon after trying this. Perhaps give it some time for it to wear off.


Also, do futures not have a time premium either? Don't they have an expiration date as well?

Ie. take this for instance:
http://www.forexpros.com/indices/australia-200-futures

Says: S&P/ASX200 Index Futures CFDs *Mar 12* Overview


Additionally, if futures are so superior to ETOs, then why does the latter exist and be actively traded in the first place?


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## skyQuake (9 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> But honestly, with asx200 options, when the market moves even 0.1% in the direction you bet, the massive amount of profit seems to outweigh everything else - so I have never noticed a decline in the value of the options I'm holding since the profits are very large in terms of ROI.



Really? a 4pt move = massive p/l? Scalping futs you can take 4pts, but i really doubt 4 pts will even covers the bid/ask spread on oppies. Which oppie chain are u looking at.



> Also, do futures not have a time premium either? Don't they have an expiration date as well?




Cost of carry. Different from time prem, also XJO oppies are priced according to futs rather than cash till expiry date, so thats pretty much moot.

Futures expire, and u can roll them over a bit like oppies.



> Ie. take this for instance:
> http://www.forexpros.com/indices/australia-200-futures
> 
> Says: S&P/ASX200 Index Futures CFDs *Mar 12* Overview
> ...




Just check the liquidity on the futs vs the oppies, actively traded is a very loose term. XJO Oppies are for ppl who as previously said, want non-linear payoffs, or arb against cash.


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## wayneL (9 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Additionally, if futures are so superior to ETOs, then why does the latter exist and be actively traded in the first place?




Grasshopper, 

Futures are not superior to options; neither are options superior to futures. Each have their place in the complete trader's armory. Choosing the right weapon and defensive apparatus for the right battle is what is important.

IOW, never take a knife to a gunfight.

Options are a fine instrument and I recommend them highly in the right circumstance and market view, but (this is not meant to give offense) you have no idea with what you are playing with, otherwise you would not have asked this question.


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## Starcraftmazter (9 January 2012)

So overall, what is your point?


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## wayneL (10 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So overall, what is your point?






skyQuake said:


> And you can just as easily lose 80% every day for a week






Starcraftmazter said:


> Only if you are really really dumb. And have some problem pulling out of a clearly bad position.




It comes back to the whole point of ASF, to deliver quality information and discussion on markets.

I'm happy to let you blow yourself up; in fact it might be just what you 'need', but the point is that on a public forum, there are readers who might get something out of the discussion.

There are various clowns and buffoons who promote erroneous information on options. Some pitch it to the ignorant for large sums of money, some because they are ignorant themselves. 

Some feel a responsibility to call them out and give better information.

In conclusion, contributors to this thread are hoping others 'see' the point, even if you don't.


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## skc (10 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So overall, what is your point?




The Bill Stacy thread offers a good laugh and the sort of return option amateurs can sometimes generate (e.g. 10 winning months then -80% off the cliff in 3 days).


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## mazzatelli (10 January 2012)

wayneL said:


> There are various clowns and buffoons who promote erroneous information on options. Some pitch it to the ignorant for large sums of money, some because they are ignorant themselves.




Anecdote: Enough digging in option archives in ASF, has a poster who came in and said it was "easy" (selling otm gamma, promoting positions that were essentially synthetic longs), didn't care for any risks presented to him/her, only to subsequently blow up.

Then there is always the Bill Stacy thread...


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## skc (10 January 2012)

mazzatelli said:


> Anecdote: Enough digging in option archives in ASF, has a poster who came in and said it was "easy" (selling otm gamma, promoting positions that were essentially synthetic longs), didn't care for any risks presented to him/her, only to subsequently blow up.
> 
> Then there is always the Bill Stacy thread...




Or is that Daniel K?

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21516&p=679618#post679618


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## mazzatelli (10 January 2012)

skc said:


> Or is that Daniel K?



 No, not DK. This person was on at least a 6 month winning streak and quite a few trades iirc before :fan


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## Starcraftmazter (10 January 2012)

Sure there's always risks, but that's nothing to do with options...it doesn't really matter what instrument you use - if you predict the direction incorrectly, you will lose money. The quantity of money should be clear to everyone who trades said instrument - this is no secret at all.

Overall, sure is captain obvious in here.


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## wayneL (11 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Sure there's always risks, but that's nothing to do with options...it doesn't really matter what instrument you use - if you predict the direction incorrectly, you will lose money. The quantity of money should be clear to everyone who trades said instrument - this is no secret at all.
> 
> Overall, sure is captain obvious in here.




Oh really?


With options you can get the direction right and still lose
You can get the direction wrong and still win
You can use options to profit from a strong move in any direction
You can use options to profit from sideways movement
You can use options to profit from changes in volatility, irrespective of movement
You can use options to lock up the underlying's price long enough for CGT considerations
You can use options for arbitrage
You can use options to scalp gamma
You can use options to collect premium

...and probably a bunch of stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

Yes picking direction too. But doing so without regard to the non linear aspects is not too bright.

You are fond of referring to others as 'stupid', yet in your attempts to not look stupid yourself... well, let's just say even Lao Tzu would be amused.


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## mazzatelli (11 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Overall, sure is captain obvious in here.




From the same captain who brilliantly gave us...



Starcraftmazter said:


> Also, do futures not have a time premium either? Don't they have an expiration date as well?


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## Starcraftmazter (11 January 2012)

wayneL said:


> You are fond of referring to others as 'stupid', yet in your attempts to not look stupid yourself... well, let's just say even Lao Tzu would be amused.




Not at all, however it is not a stretch to say that if you predict the market will rise or fall - but it goes something like 3 percent in the opposite direction, and you don't sell so you lose more money....then that's somewhat _silly_.

I'm also talking about exclusively about trading ETOs, as I've already mentioned half a dozen times.


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## wayneL (11 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Not at all, however it is not a stretch to say that if you predict the market will rise or fall - but it goes something like 3 percent in the opposite direction, and you don't sell so you lose more money....then that's somewhat _silly_.
> 
> I'm also talking about exclusively about trading ETOs, as I've already mentioned half a dozen times.




Well wtf  do you  think we're all talking about?


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## mazzatelli (11 January 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Not at all, however it is not a stretch to  say that if you predict the market will rise or fall - but it goes  something like 3 percent in the opposite direction, and you don't sell  so you lose more money....then that's somewhat _silly_.




"Silly" is when your primary objective is to swing trade directionally[delta] using options. 

Cutting losses as you described is a universal principle for investing  an trading activities, what you said could just as easily be posted in  [insert any of the newbie threads]

Captain obvious strikes again!!!


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## Ricardo3429 (22 November 2012)

Hi Starcaftsmazter,
Yes the detractors are referring to time premium. 
Basically, long options decay, especially fast near expiry, so you need the market to make a sharp move for you upwards for a long call and downwards for a long put. There is nothing at all wrong with trading with them, a lot of advantages actually. You can't lose more than you paid for the option(s). You don't need to fear that the market will gap over your stops as in futures. You can usually retrieve some value in the options if the market isn't going your way, (unless it moves fast in the wrong direction). It's true tha futures are more efficient as they don't decay and don't eat capital. 
You can also do spreads with options, allowing you to sell options at the same time to help pay for your long (bought) options. Generally you find this limits your profits as the sold options increase in value as the market goes in the direction of your long options, so when you close the sold options you lose, detracting from the long options' profits. 
Stick to your guns, your 300% will soon grow and grow. You just have to be right about direction and speed. Choose markets that MOVE. 
R.


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## ftw129 (22 November 2012)

So Starcraftmazter,

Interested to know how you've been going?


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