# Destruction of Australia's engineering and construction expertise



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

What has happened to our engineering and construction expertise ?

Paradise Dam in Bundaberg is suffering structural and design problems so bad that its capacity will have to be reduced.

Can't we build things like this any more ?

There must be implications for anyone investing in infrastructure.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...dise-drought-bundaberg-north-burnett/11543600

It could be a major scandal that needs a proper cleanout in the relevant industries.


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## Gringotts Bank (25 September 2019)

Any major boom (like Aus real estate and construction) will attract corrupt elements.  I doubt it's the engineers at fault.  More like the builders and developers.  Then there's cruddy Chinese steel.


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

Pity the government doesn't have the guts to mandate Australian steel for all infrastructure projects.


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## tech/a (25 September 2019)

Your on the ball guys

I buy steel on indent.
Some of the material I’ve been offered
Is not even close to Australian Standard.

Trouble is Australia can not produce enough Steel for itself


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## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

You will also note that the capacity of the dam will be reduced to 42% of its initial capacity after damages in 2013, so not properly repaired in 6 years..6 years where we could have had a disaster if we had had a proper rain season
Not only the quality but the time it takes for anything to be done in Australia is mind blowing, and usually matching costs


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## tech/a (25 September 2019)

Absolutely QF


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## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

I am tired sending gloomy posts, responding to ignorant fanatics butchering science on the global warming threads, and having to break nice positive posts with sheer realism
Experiences in and of the real world is a heavy burden and i wish sometimes i was still young and naive optimistic.
Last post for a little while until i can find some positive news


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## Knobby22 (25 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Your on the ball guys
> 
> I buy steel on indent.
> Some of the material I’ve been offered
> ...



So true.
In my industry, electrical, pvc sheathed cabling used to be mainly made in Australia. The biggest factory was bought and closed down and now it comes from China. The quality is a lot poorer and you can no longer run long distances underground as the low resistance leads to the rcds tripping. 
So on any long run I have to specify XLPE insulation type.
It's with lots of stuff.

I am an engineer, as associate in my firm,  we as a species are under threat from international forces buying all the consultancies and bringing in foreigners to undercut who have no idea of local conditions. It's getting hard for graduates to get a good job.


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## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

Melbourne docklands having pier issues.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...100-million-over-closure-20190925-p52uz2.html


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## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> So true.
> In my industry, electrical, pvc sheathed cabling used to be mainly made in Australia. The biggest factory was bought and closed down and now it comes from China. The quality is a lot poorer and you can no longer run long distances underground as the low resistance leads to the rcds tripping.
> So on any long run I have to specify XLPE insulation type.
> It's with lots of stuff.
> ...




They had a recall on some imported TPS cable, from memory.

https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> They had a recall on some imported TPS cable, from memory.
> 
> https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late




"
_On 14 September 2016, the Director of Infinity Cable Co Pty Ltd, Ms Lu Luo, pleaded guilty to breaching the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004 by selling non-compliant electrical cables imported *from China.*

On 12 April 2017, the Supreme Court handed down a fine of $18,000 to Ms Luo, with an additional $15,000 in court costs.

Due to the serious nature of the actions of the accused, substantial consumer detriment and significant cost to industry, NSW Fair Trading took this matter to the Supreme Court, which can impose higher penalties.

Ms Luo, imported and supplied two types of non-compliant insulated electrical cables, (commonly known as TPS cable and orange round cable) typically used for household and commercial electrical wiring.

Following both indicative and laboratory testing commissioned by Fair Trading, these cables were found to be non-compliant and initially became the subject of a mandatory recall in NSW in October 2013, at which time the company entered into voluntary administration.

Where these cables have been installed in high-risk areas such as roof cavities, under floors or other concealed areas where excessive heat is present, the insulation sheath can break down. This can cause live wires to be exposed, resulting in a major risk of electric shock if disturbed.

Prior to and since the compulsory recall was issued, Fair Trading has worked to warn and educate the public about the safety concerns of these cables, and consulted extensively with smaller NSW suppliers to identify and rectify work done using Infinity cables."
_
https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/news-and-updates/news/infinity-electrical-cable-safety-recall_
_
Isn't it time we stopped importing from a country well known for making substandard equipment that has the potential to risk lives ?


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## Smurf1976 (26 September 2019)

Trouble with all of this is that Australia has simply lost interest in doing technical things. It has become all about "enabling" others to do things and so on rather than doing them ourselves.

There's also problems with things like steel. I know from first hand experience that even if you place a decent size order with a well known company, you've got be alert as to what actually turns up. Not too big a drama if you're working somewhere that can and does do materials testing and so on but a far bigger danger for the average small-medium builder who hasn't the time or resources to be doing that and just takes their word for it unless the deficiency is apparent through visual inspection.

For energy though, well it's the middle of the night and in SA and Vic there's OCGT's running to keep the lights on. For those not familiar with technical jargon that's Open Cycle Gas Turbines, a low capital cost but high fuel consumption and operating cost means of generating power which suits backup and occasional use peaking application. For constant use there are more efficient ways of using gas for power, costs more to build but cheaper to run, whereas OCGT's are peaking and backup plant basically.

To be running OCGT's at 6pm in Winter or during a heatwave in Summer is one thing, that's what they were built for, but to have them roaring away after midnight when the weather's mild and there's no natural disaster or anything like that is a pretty sure indication that things aren't in great shape.

Same basic story in all technical fields really. All rather pared back, hollowed out and so on.

Pragmatically though, it'll have to be fixed at some stage and that creates opportunities to invest in those who'll end up doing the work.


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## tech/a (26 September 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> So true.
> In my industry, electrical, pvc sheathed cabling used to be mainly made in Australia. The biggest factory was bought and closed down and now it comes from China. The quality is a lot poorer and you can no longer run long distances underground as the low resistance leads to the rcds tripping.
> So on any long run I have to specify XLPE insulation type.
> It's with lots of stuff.
> ...





Again a very interesting observation.

I deal with Civil Engineers every day.
Working on a larger domestic project $ 80 k for the client 
I notice when pricing the project there is no specification 
Tendered allowing for piling to be founded below the  2 meters
Of site fill. The specifications for a 2 meter pile wall show a pier 
Depth of 2 meters now I’m not an engineer but I know you have
To pile into natural.

I gave my client the pricing but informed him if successful we 
Would not build an incorrect spec.

I didn’t hear from him for 2 mths.
Recently a revised spec turned up from him 
Now 4 meter deep piles, pier diameter changed from 600 mm to 900
Mm steel weight from 180 UB 22 to 200 UC 72  22 kg a meter to
72 kg a meter.

Price increase $42 k

The engineering firm is local and the guy I dealt with was a pleasant
Asian guy who made excuses about how we should know that piles
Should be founded into Natural ground.

Well we did 
But with no specification tendered for building it appears you overlooked it!

I’m afraid it is already in epidemic proportions and while price rules 
In the cost of manufacturing to building it will get worse.
We won’t do substandard work and will point it out loud and clearly.

Most people see the $ fortunately he didn’t.
Sadly I think it kills his budget for his build.
So he may succumb to economic forces.


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## Smurf1976 (26 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> We won’t do substandard work and will point it out loud and clearly.




Had some plumbing work done at home yesterday, that being one of the few things I won’t do myself.

Plumbing being a licenced trade, consequences if it goes wrong and floods the place, etc.

Suffice to say that when getting quotes everyone assumed I wanted a cheap and nasty job done and I needed to make it very clear that I wanted everything as per the relevant Australian Standard as a minimum.

That put the price up but it’s a neat, professional job.

That everyone assumed they’d be quoting the cheapest and nastiest way of doing it presumably means that’s what’s mostly being done these days.


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## tech/a (26 September 2019)

*Smurf*

This is what we have found in our feedback of 1000's of Tenders and Domestic Pricing.
Broadly Speaking

$1000 - $10000  Price and Time Driven
$10,000 - $30,000 Price and Time Driven.
*$30,000 - $50,000 Price and Capability Driven.
$50,000 - $200,000 Price / Capability / Relationship and OHS Driven.
$200,000- + Price / Capability /Relationship / OHS / and Time Driven.
*
If you haven't developed a relationship with clients in the BLACK
chances are your not in the race.


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## Country Lad (26 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> .........If you haven't developed a relationship with clients in the BLACK chances are your not in the race.




That brings back memories tech, we discussed this many years ago.  I can certainly reinforce tech’s comments.

One part of my company’s business was the same as tech’s and our market segment was mainly scope of work bigger than those operating out of a ute but smaller than was attractive to the large civil construction companies. Our main work was in the range of tech’s last 2 categories and as a result of excellent relationship with the specifiers, Councils and builders we had a very good level if business.

There were many occasions where we would quote to householders and particularly for expensive jobs (to them), around the $50,000 to $100,000 where specifiers were not involved, the back-yarders would do it for even less than half our quote.

But it rains in Nth Qld and we could pick which walls would collapse and for what reason. Then the specifiers or Council get involved and those remediation or rebuild projects became very lucrative for us.

Probably no different to any other business – get to know your clients, develop a good rapport and prove you deliver.  Less and less emphasis on this these days, too much concentration on cost.


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## tech/a (26 September 2019)

Yes we did.
Pity we havent had another catch up!


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## Johny5 (27 September 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> That everyone assumed they’d be quoting the cheapest and nastiest way of doing it presumably means that’s what’s mostly being done these days.




I had a guy quoting a bathroom renovation, apart from every forth word being an expletive, he must have said at least ten times "I will be $%#@*&^ cheaper than anyone else". He wouldn't listen to what we wanted at all e.g. we want a frameless shower screen, his response "Oh they are %&#^ too $%#@*&^ expensive, I will put in a shower over the $%#@*&^ bath, you will $%#@*&^ thank me, they are &*#$ hot". We told him we are planning on staying here for at least 10 years, we want something of good quality that will last. He wasn't having a bar of it cheap cheap cheap $%#@*&^ cheap. We put up with 20 minutes of this then politely showed him the door.


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## Jack Aubrey (27 September 2019)

Tradies serving the domestic home market are competing with IKEA and Bunnings for things like kitchens and built-in cupboards so that's setting the benchmark price-wise.  Developers, especially for high-rises and estates, also put a lot of price pressure on trades and encourage the race for the bottom.  The better tradies I know do try to sus out the client before doing a quote.


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## tech/a (27 September 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> The better tradies I know do try to sus out the client before doing a quote.




Qualifying Clients is an absolute must.
For the contractor and the client.
No point in talking Phone numbers if your after
a budget project.

You may not be suited to the contractor and the Client
may not suit the tradie.

People want *Value* in a price range that they can either
afford or a budget that they have Allowed.

Its up to you to fill that need.

First you have to define it ---Rolls Royce? 
Sure you can have it and no it doesn't have to be at current retail.
If its great *value *and you can afford it and that's what you want.
Done Deal.
Once your client can see this he will only need to chose the color.

If its a commercial client its about *BUDGET*.
Something has been specified--the playing field is level.
If you've passed the capability filter then you need to be in the *BUDGET.*
If your over the budget your out of the game (They have had Quantity Surveyors
determine their budgets).

If your under then you make them either look good! (They want the contract just
like you do).
Or if they've won it--you make them more profit. This is very common.
You shift some of the profit from you to them. We then shift it from *OUR* suppliers 
back to us if they want our business on *THAT* contract.

There is nothing more interesting than the challenge of business!


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## SirRumpole (27 September 2019)

As a client the best way seems to be to get at least three quotes and pick the middle one.


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## tech/a (27 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> As a client the best way seems to be to get at least three quotes and pick the middle one.




I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.

Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.

Business (Most expensive)
Premium Economy (Middle)
Cattle class (Cheapest).

If your not able to see WHY prices differ then in my
view you are not making an informed decision.

Lets say your buying a veranda

One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($18000 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($16500 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($14500 +)

Do you take the middle?


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## SirRumpole (27 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.
> 
> Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.
> 
> ...




Well I was thinking of home renovation in general.

I specify what I want in terms of materials and fittings etc then get 3 quotes. Of course I would try to contact others who have used these people and see if I can find if they did a good job. Failing that I would think that the cheapest one would be likely to cut corners to get a lower price and the most expensive would be likely to either not want the job or was padding out his profits while the middle one would be most likely to do a reasonable job for the money.


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## Smurf1976 (27 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Do you take the middle?



What I’d be focusing on is the contractor.

Can they do it and most importantly will they actually do it?

There’s plenty of tradies who can but not so many who actually will do a quality job to the customer’s requirements.


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## tech/a (27 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I was thinking of home renovation in general.
> 
> I specify what I want in terms of materials and fittings etc then get 3 quotes. Of course I would try to contact others who have used these people and see if I can find if they did a good job. Failing that I would think that the cheapest one would be likely to cut corners to get a lower price and the most expensive would be likely to either not want the job or was padding out his profits while the middle one would be most likely to do a reasonable job for the money.







Smurf1976 said:


> What I’d be focusing on is the contractor.
> 
> Can they do it and most importantly will they actually do it?
> 
> There’s plenty of tradies who can but not so many who actually will do a quality job to the customer’s requirements.




This is a really interesting reply SR
We have won many projects being the highest price which harks back to Smurf 
Observation of reputation and perception of that.

There have been times when one of our suppliers offers distressed stock Like Steel or Concrete Sleepers.
I have had occasion when we have passed this on to consumers where we are asked why so cheap!
Even though we tell them in the proposal. Is something wrong with them/it?
Im sure I've missed project because of that cheapness as well with THAT perception being
There must be something wrong!

I had an excavator once that I couldn't sell There was nothing wrong with it just had a chance
to upgrade at a great Value. For what it was It was cheap $30K really a bargain. I had
service records and was still on site working.--Couldn't sell it.
I took it off of sale worked with it for another 6 mths (making well over my $30K) Put it on 
the market for $45K and sold it for $41!!!!

Its a fine line.


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## SirRumpole (27 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> This is a really interesting reply SR
> We have won many projects being the highest price which harks back to Smurf
> Observation of reputation and perception of that.




Yes , that's why I said I would seek references from others who have used the contractor.



tech/a said:


> I had an excavator once that I couldn't sell There was nothing wrong with it just had a chance
> to upgrade at a great Value. For what it was It was cheap $30K really a bargain. I had
> service records and was still on site working.--Couldn't sell it.
> I took it off of sale worked with it for another 6 mths (making well over my $30K) Put it on
> the market for $45K and sold it for $41!!!!




Interesting how the perceptions of the market vary. Better to price high with some things and let the buyer beat you down rather than underprice and give the impression that you are trying for a quick sale of a shonky product.


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## satanoperca (7 October 2019)

tech/a said:


> I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.
> 
> Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.
> 
> ...




I like the proposition, there is no correct answer as there is not enough detail, unless all things remain the same in material, workmanship and service.

The flight scenario, one can make the assumption that they all achieve the same thing, they get you from A to B on the same vehicle of transport, but they are not the same service.

In my case, I develop Enterprise management software. My best clients are the ones the choose the lowest price. I don't get the work, which is my best opportunity for me in the future for me to get the work, as I am most of the top the highest price.

Why you might ask? Client takes the cheapest price, system fails, they waste a pile of money.
I contact them some time later, just to followup, they are pissed off at that stage, they don't want to piss more money up the wall. That is when I get to explain to them, the devil is always in the detail in systems software and it is not about price, it is about having a successful operating system. They have learnt by their mistakes and are willing to listen, they learn to own their decisions and become more active in making the system work.

Price is only one part of an equation to the success of any project, whether it is a product or service or a combination of both


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## Junior (8 October 2019)

We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time.  The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.  

"On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."




> *Australia is rich, dumb and getting dumber*
> 
> Aaron Patrick  Senior Correspondent
> Oct 8, 2019 — 12.00am
> ...


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## sptrawler (8 October 2019)

Junior said:


> We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time.  The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.
> 
> "On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."



Meanwhile our education standards are dropping, our population is being kept in the dark by a constant stream of white noise about anything other than what will in reality will make us a third world country, the sad part as can be seen on here we are falling for it.


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## Smurf1976 (8 October 2019)

Junior said:


> We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time.  The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.



The really sad thing is that one of the "opportunities" mentioned, chemical wood pulp, was pioneered at Burnie (Tasmania) in the late 1930's which was the first viable hardwood pulping operation anywhere.

In due course APPM, or simply "the pulp" as locals always called it, ended up employing 4500 people at its peak or a quarter of the town's entire population. A notable aspect, unusual for its time in a heavy industrial situation, was that a substantial portion of the workforce was female.

Pulp production continued until 1998 and at the peak there were 10 paper production lines in operation as well as the Burnie Board mills. Everything was done on site - wood went in and finished paper came out. Even the packing was made on site as were the chemicals used in production.

The downside of course was the infamous pollution which turned the air white and the water black but with modern technology that could have been cleaned up certainly since the means of doing so is now very much proven. Indeed the company did propose redeveloping production with modern technology in 1988 but fell victim to politics at the federal level which sealed the fate of the entire operation in due course.

Go to the place where that was done and today there's a Bunnings on part of the site and the rest's doing nothing. Says it all really.


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## Junior (8 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> The really sad thing is that one of the "opportunities" mentioned, chemical wood pulp, was pioneered at Burnie (Tasmania) in the late 1930's which was the first viable hardwood pulping operation anywhere.
> 
> In due course APPM, or simply "the pulp" as locals always called it, ended up employing 4500 people at its peak or a quarter of the town's entire population. A notable aspect, unusual for its time in a heavy industrial situation, was that a substantial portion of the workforce was female.
> 
> ...




We plan for the long term in Australia, well, until the next election.


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## sptrawler (8 October 2019)

Junior said:


> We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time.  The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.
> 
> "On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."




Further to Junior's post, it is about time Australians stood back and had a look at themselves, all this change the World stuff sounds great, but in reality the only World that is going to change is Australia's.
Spend a bit of time reading this article, then tell me our major worry is climate change.
https://ourworldindata.org/how-and-why-econ-complexity

Check out the Countries that are the same colour as us. 
Thank god for the minerals and a small population.


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## Smurf1976 (8 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Check out the Countries that are the same colour as us.



The really sad bit is when you move it back to 1964 and see how much more advanced we were then compared to now.

Or not on that chart but going back a century we were right up there on a lot of things. First or at least very early with all sorts of things.

Now we're clinging to the hope that the rest of the world keeps wanting to buy coal.


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## qldfrog (11 October 2019)

https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5
During that time science illiterates from y12 onward strikes before joining other perpetual students and system parasites to block bridges, cbd and airports


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## Smurf1976 (12 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5



Nailed it.

Main observation I'll make is that the extent of the imbalance is increasingly obvious and attracting more attention. There's more people saying this sort of thing now whereas in the past it was really only the odd random person who said this is going to be a problem.

This has all been coming for a very long time - concerns have been around since at least the early 1980's about all this.


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## Knobby22 (12 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5
> During that time science illiterates from y12 onward strikes before joining other perpetual students and system parasites to block bridges, cbd and airports



The politicians are mostly lawyers, they haven't got scientific training and over the last twenty years rigged the system to support lawyers through agreements such as the US trade agreement.
They are the problem.


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## SirRumpole (12 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5
> During that time science illiterates from y12 onward strikes before joining other perpetual students and system parasites to block bridges, cbd and airports




As smurf said, this article is right on the money.

I'll add that if politicians like Dutton et al are so concerned about Chinese influence in the universities, it all comes down to the fact that the universities are under funded and have to rely on foreign students.

Nothing wrong with educating foreign students, but our own students have to come first, so the government just has to bite the bullet and give the uni's more money, and exercise control to ensure that the uni's offer courses that are relevant to societies needs.


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## macca (12 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> As smurf said, this article is right on the money.
> 
> I'll add that if politicians like Dutton et al are so concerned about Chinese influence in the universities, it all comes down to the fact that the universities are under funded and have to rely on foreign students.
> 
> Nothing wrong with educating foreign students, but our own students have to come first, so the government just has to bite the bullet and give the uni's more money, and exercise control to ensure that the uni's offer courses that are relevant to societies needs.




Agree, I think to fund it we need to stop training people in careers that we do not need.

The Gov should work with employers, identify potential requirements in 5 years time, offer unlimited training numbers spread thoughout the various state Unis for those skills.

It is not hard to imagine the frustration of a graduate when they discover their employment prospects within there qualified area are not good.

We could say "if you are smart enough to go to Uni, you should be smart enough to pick a course that has good job prospects" but the school system does not seem to encourage common sense anymore.

I think many academics like "soft sciences" and obviously do not understand science, engineering etc etc. so are not in tune with practical, hands on personalities who flourish in those industries


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## moXJO (12 October 2019)

Education in this country is a joke along with the majority of trainers and teachers knowledge. It is very hard to find and learn from people who know their profession inside-out. Let alone  the hoops and expense of it.


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## qldfrog (12 October 2019)

Trouble is teaching is, unless a vocation, a last resort option, for perpetual students to gain a job.
I do not target Basilio here
Not specific to australia but after years of growth and plenty of job opportunities elsewhere, we have populated teaching with the cream of the bottom and these appointments will carry on for a while generation.
If you add the me me and participation awards syndromes, the level is abysmal.
This would not be a death sentence if we had a society aiming for excellence and entrepreneurship..you remember Turnbull score with even trying?
So 50pc of population with a culture of envy, tax the risk increase welfare and the other half worrying about bank share, super and real estate
In a country fully in its bubble unaware of the workd as it is now, and how quickly it is moving past
We worry about burn out of primary school kids if they have homework, china build a new airport in Beijing
Parents take their kids in SUV to a climate march, China and india open new coal station, build new rickets and missiles
I have said it so many times but visit Argentina or Chile, this is our future but it will arrive much more quickly
A mismatched arrogance,a leftist state of mind and you end up there even with a small population and incredible natural assets


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## Smurf1976 (12 October 2019)

macca said:


> Agree, I think to fund it we need to stop training people in careers that we do not need.
> 
> The Gov should work with employers, identify potential requirements in 5 years time, offer unlimited training numbers spread thoughout the various state Unis for those skills.
> 
> ...




I've quoted your whole post because it's worth repeating.

A part of the problem is that many people, both at an individual level and as employers, have come to associate having a degree, _any degree_, as being proof of intelligence and similarly that anyone without a degree can't be the brightest bulb on the tree.

In reality having a degree says nothing more than that you went to uni and passed the exams required to get that degree. Not having a degree says that you didn't do this.

Sure, if someone has a medical or legal degree then they're no fool but it's wrong to think that someone else is a fool just because they lack a university education.

Those with a medical degree usually stick at medicine. Not always but they generally seem to. 

Those with legal or economics degrees tend to be more problematic however since they tend to end up in charge of things they know nothing at all about. I mean no offence to anyone personally, but crux of it is that lawyers and economists think in a very different way to how scientists, engineers or for that matter tradesmen think and that becomes a problem when it ends with a lawyer or economist in charge of something scientific.

Where it goes next is disregard for the technical aspects. A view that all that really matters is complying with laws, writing contracts and so on and that anything technical is just a sideline that we'll get someone in to tell us about. Much like saying we'll get someone to fix the computers or a dripping tap. Irritating nuisance stuff that's getting in the way of the real work producing a document with all the right buzzwords in it.

As a society we've simply put lawyers or economics / business types in charge of most things and devalued pretty much everything that's technical or scientific in any way. That's tail wagging the dog stuff and it won't end well.

All this stuff used to bother me but these days I just accept how it is and watch the show unfold.

Victoria's a classic one. The state government's got a policy of having 50% renewable energy by 2030 but they've also got policies which prevent consumers using renewable energy. Thing is, I doubt they're even aware of the flaw since their own public servants don't seem to have picked it up and the Minister has, wait for it, an Arts degree. They'll be in an even bigger panic when they spot the roadblock in the way of their plan to put solar on 650,000 homes and realise that it's a roadblock of their own making.

An electrical engineer or for that matter any decent electrician would spot the flaws pretty quickly upon seeing what's planned indeed even someone who was simply good at applied mathematics would likely be at least somewhat concerned that there's a problem. Not many of those in parliament however.

All that stuff used to bother me but these days nah, I just see it as comedy really. Can't stop the fools so just make sure I'm not caught up in it and watch the show unfold. It's frustrating though watching those who insist on doing everything wrong and failing.


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## sptrawler (12 October 2019)

The teachers union is very strong.
Whether that is a good or a bad thing who knows.
Making teaching a degree, helped raise wages, but IMO didnt end up with better teachers.
Teaching at primary level, is more a personality skill than an accademic skill, but now the "ability" to teach is valued the least. IMO


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## Jack Aubrey (13 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've quoted your whole post because it's worth repeating.
> 
> A part of the problem is that many people, both at an individual level and as employers, have come to associate having a degree, _any degree_, as being proof of intelligence and similarly that anyone without a degree can't be the brightest bulb on the tree.
> 
> ...




A lot of truth here. I have an environmental science background and spent 90% of my career doing environment policy stuff for governments. In the 1980s and 90s there was a deliberate push to "de-professionalise" most public service jobs - ie. make us all "generalists" and managers. That was actually justified to some extent as technical and scientific areas of government DO have a tendency to become obsessed with "facts" and "truth" rather than understanding their role in the bigger picture. They can also suffer from groupthink as they tend to recruit people from the same "stream of thinking".  When you are part of big machine, it helps to have others around who think differently.  I think this hit a sweet spot when we had a good mix of science, economics, engineering, law (plus even a few historians, political science and psychology experts). We also had people with actual "life" experience outside unis and the public service - people who'd run mines, farms, been in the services etc.  

What happened next was weird. By around 2010 I ended up working for people whose main focus was marketing, journalism and accounting and people with environmental and other technical backgrounds or experience were disappearing and being replaced by consultants (or sometimes by nothing at all).  The impact on how we operated and, more importantly, what we focused on, changed radically - it became all about the political "optics" and what "stakeholders" wanted, rather than anything actually related to environmental risk or mitigation.  We made a total 180 degree turn from "evidence-based policy" to "policy-based evidence" - making the facts fit the desired outcome.

To be honest, I did enjoy some of that. I was senior enough, and had picked up some management and other "generalist" skills so that I wasn't seen as totally "techie" or as a "propeller head".  In the end, I "woke up" one day, got my (financial) act together and bailed just as the Abbott government came to power (the government least interested in either facts or due process I have ever seen).

I know this has happened all over the public sphere. My wife's last nursing job was a senior nurse working under a "Nurse Manager" who was an accountant and had no medical experience at all.

But, hey, we now have a budget surplus and that's what's important.


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## SirRumpole (13 October 2019)

Brilliant post Jack, I can relate to a lot of it.

I also worked in a State government environmental organisation collecting environmental data. When I first joined we were basically all government funded and we collected data where we wanted to with the objective of assessment of the states  resources as a whole and the data was freely available to all.

Eventually this imperative was diluted and basically sold off to as you say "stakeholders"  like farmers, mines and various others with a commercial interest in the data. This data then became "commercial in confidence" and not for public release. Of course we still collected general data but most of the managers time was diverted away from that public good objective and towards promoting our services to those prepared to pay for it.

Public good becomes private interest, money always wins.


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## Smurf1976 (13 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> When you are part of big machine, it helps to have others around who think differently. I think this hit a sweet spot when we had a good mix of science, economics, engineering, law (plus even a few historians, political science and psychology experts). We also had people with actual "life" experience outside unis and the public service - people who'd run mines, farms, been in the services etc.



Agreed there definitely.

Something I can recall working extremely well under very difficult circumstances involved having lots of people, all with their areas of expertise, but all being sure to understand exactly what others were concerned about and why.

Without being specific, there was no easy option. It was bad versus bad versus worse, there was no "good" choices to be made.

That it all got done was ultimately because everyone understood what the real issues were and there was no "positioning" going on. Nobody was trying to say their bit was more important or anything like that. It was just OK, what are all the limitations, what are we sure of and what else do we reasonably expect could happen and can we find a path through all of that? And if we can't avoid anything bad then can we at least only damage things, be they machinery or environment or whatever, which can be fixed pretty easily with no permanent impacts? So what's the stuff we really mustn't break under any circumstances?

Once everyone understands that sort of thing, what's critical versus what's nice to have if possible, then it's easier to find a path through.


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## sptrawler (13 October 2019)

I was involved in the "competency standards" and writing them in the mid 90's, identify a skill which required a different knowledge base and skill set, then define that competence.
I said at the time all this will do is de-skill the trades, and allow employers to just train people to the level required in their workplace, rather than train tradesmen to understand all aspects of their trade.
Well it certainly has proved me right.
But having said that, it did give tradesmen a real leg up, in the wages stakes.


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## Smurf1976 (13 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I was involved in the "competency standards" and writing them in the mid 90's, identify a skill which required a different knowledge base and skill set, then define that competence.



At least you have the knowledge to base it on.


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## Smurf1976 (13 October 2019)

So are there ways we can invest to profit from all this?

One I'll note is that construction contractors etc rarely walk away with a loss from the mistakes of others and sometimes make a gain from it all.


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## Jack Aubrey (14 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I was involved in the "competency standards" and writing them in the mid 90's, identify a skill which required a different knowledge base and skill set, then define that competence.
> I said at the time all this will do is de-skill the trades, and allow employers to just train people to the level required in their workplace, rather than train tradesmen to understand all aspects of their trade.
> Well it certainly has proved me right.
> But having said that, it did give tradesmen a real leg up, in the wages stakes.




My dealings with educational experts always left me dumbfounded.  Bureaucrats, academics and industry "leaders" seemed equally unable to comprehend or articulate future workforce and skills needs.  They seemed barely able to say what present shortfalls were.  I guess we see some of the fruits of that in the current NBN debacle and flaky solar installations.  When the people at the top don't even understand the current technology, let alone trends, we seem to end up with half-arsed implementation and excuses.


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## SirRumpole (14 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> we seem to end up with half-arsed implementation and excuses.




ie politics.


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## Smurf1976 (14 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> I guess we see some of the fruits of that in the current NBN debacle and flaky solar installations.  When the people at the top don't even understand the current technology, let alone trends, we seem to end up with half-arsed implementation and excuses.



My concern is that we’ll end up doing much the same with EV’s just as we’re messing it up with solar.

The fist step in getting technical things right is to understand what needs to happen in order for it to be right. Only then can you actually go about doing it sensibly.


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## sptrawler (14 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> My concern is that we’ll end up doing much the same with EV’s just as we’re messing it up with solar.
> 
> The fist step in getting technical things right is to understand what needs to happen in order for it to be right. Only then can you actually go about doing it sensibly.




I can't understand why standard charging voltages and plugs haven't been forced on manufacturers. It will end up another pigs ear, like the early days of mobile phones, every manufacturer had a different charging voltage and model specific plug, untill micro usb was made standard.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/...makers-quest-one-plug-to-charge-them-all.html

From the article:
_Indeed, charging the car’s battery pack at home, or topping up at the office or shopping mall, will work fine for most drivers. But what about trips that are beyond the range of a single battery charge? Couldn’t a driver in need simply pull up to a charging kiosk and plug in for a rapid refill?

It’s not that simple.

Sure, there are already public charging stations in service, and new ones are coming online daily. But those typically take several hours to fully replenish a battery.

As a result, the ability for quick battery boosts — using a compatible direct current fast charger, the Leaf can refill to 80 percent capacity in 30 minutes — could potentially become an important point of differentiation among electric models.

But the availability of fast charging points has in part been held up by the lack of an agreement among automakers on a universal method for fast charging — or even on a single electrical connector. Today’s prevalent D.C. fast-charge systems are built to a standard developed in Japan by Nissan, Mitsubishi and Subaru in conjunction with Tokyo Electric Power_.


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## moXJO (14 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> My concern is that we’ll end up doing much the same with EV’s just as we’re messing it up with solar.
> 
> The fist step in getting technical things right is to understand what needs to happen in order for it to be right. Only then can you actually go about doing it sensibly.



To many layers of bureaucracy with to many clueless idiots sandwiched in between. The guys with the knowhow are rarely the ones in charge of major decisions. Price point is also a major factor.

Some of the major government contracts I've worked on have been nightmares in the past. Especially when there is pressure on politicians to get it done. You have an array of idiots telling you how to do the job (wrong). Constant meetings about nothing. God knows how much these dips get paid, but you could fire half of them.
No one wants to take responsibility and nobody gives you knowledgeable answers.


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## Smurf1976 (14 October 2019)

This is the kind of stuff which brings a degree of despair to those watching all this silly stuff happen:



> The outage was caused by a cloud which rolled in to Alice Springs about 2:00pm on Sunday




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...-springs-blackout/11599546?WT.ac=statenews_nt

Now if only someone would listen to those saying that yes this is possible, it can be made to work, but there's more to it than just slapping things together and hoping for the best.


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## moXJO (19 October 2019)

Something else Australia seems to be sucking at is sport. Just watched the wallabies get smashed. But we seem to have stopped striving across all fields.


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## sptrawler (19 October 2019)

Apparently the biggest problem with placing people now, is them passing the drug test.


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## Humid (20 October 2019)

moXJO said:


> Something else Australia seems to be sucking at is sport. Just watched the wallabies get smashed. But we seem to have stopped striving across all fields.



Change sports
https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/wo...k=bb9804b5a21431b13b829c2542c3a2a9-1571530920


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## moXJO (20 October 2019)

Humid said:


> Change sports
> https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/wo...k=bb9804b5a21431b13b829c2542c3a2a9-1571530920



Nrl isn't much of a world sport. We are only good at that because no one else plays it with much funding behind them.

We were good at swimming,  tennis, union and a host of Olympic sports. We had semi decent boxers.


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## Humid (5 November 2019)

moXJO said:


> Nrl isn't much of a world sport. We are only good at that because no one else plays it with much funding behind them.
> 
> We were good at swimming,  tennis, union and a host of Olympic sports. We had semi decent boxers.




We were good at Union when it wasn’t much of a world sport


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## noirua (30 November 2020)




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## qldfrog (3 September 2022)

Maybe it's time to start building our subs:








						US hanging fire on Australia’s nuclear subs
					

In the latest blow to Australia’s ambitious plans to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, overstretched US and UK shipyards may not be able to supply Canberra with the boats within the decade as out…




					asiatimes.com
				



A few roofing iron, a good carperters gang a pump and a long garden hose from Bunnings with a shark net float,all made in China and she'll be right.


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## divs4ever (4 September 2022)

might be better if we started looking for folks willing to be trained , to be the crew for those subs  ( and THEN build the subs we have crew ready for )

 on second thoughts ... who are we really trying to keep out ( or in )  , all they need are student visas , and they can land at a major airport  ( and proceed to over-stay )


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## qldfrog (4 September 2022)

divs4ever said:


> might be better if we started looking for folks willing to be trained , to be the crew for those subs  ( and THEN build the subs we have crew ready for )
> 
> on second thoughts ... who are we really trying to keep out ( or in )  , all they need are student visas , and they can land at a major airport  ( and proceed to over-stay )



France is getting 400,000 entries a year from mostly Africa, it has nuclear subs and nuke  missiles, spend a fortune in defence budget and has now millions of foot soldiers within destroying its society to the core
Defence of a country is not made by buying F35 or absolete submarines but by having a dozen or so nuke balistic missiles..to protect from state military attack and a strong border protection and economic independence.
We have none  neither zip.
At best we will be a disposable ally for uncle Sam..who is now the Reset voice.
Russia eliminated, the Reset has only China left as obstacle..so expect Australia to be used.
We should retrieve independance and build back industrial self sufficiency.
Fair wish with the clowns in charge, and the voters electing them..


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## divs4ever (4 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> France is getting 400,000 entries a year from mostly Africa, it has nuclear subs and nuke  missiles, spend a fortune in defence budget and has now millions of foot soldiers within destroying its society to the core
> Defence of a country is not made by buying F35 or absolete submarines but by having a dozen or so nuke balistic missiles..to protect from state military attack and a strong border protection and economic independence.
> We have none  neither zip.
> At best we will be a disposable ally for uncle Sam..who is now the Reset voice.
> ...



 Russia eliminated ???

i think not  , but it will be interesting to see how it will accelerate the trade war 

 does it use the Chinese style of selective lock-downs to fight a 'serious virus '   ( say in the coal mining area , or uranium mines )

 does it just apply export embargoes ( targeted sanctions )

 maybe it applies  cash controls  ,  or tariffs 

if you want self-sufficiency in Australia    it will take a top-down reset ( not avoiding the various government departments on the way down )

 if you want a better government  you will have to abandon the two-party system ( and at least question the preferential voting closely )

  AND you might have to  change the ways  company directors get nominated for  the board elections ( no more directors 'the boys' can work with )


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