# Horrific child murder in Perth



## clowboy (27 June 2006)

I am guessing this has not made it on the news in the Eastern states yet as I would presume a post would already have been posted.

This link is pretty ordinary but it gives a basic on what happened

http://au.news.yahoo.com/060621/2/zhii.html

It is scary and sad....


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## scsl (27 June 2006)

clowboy, this was one of the main stories in our (melbourne) 5 and 6 pm main news bulletins. it's just really sad to see something like this happen to such a young child.

the man charged was a previoulsy known sex offender, but was "released on a technicality" a few years ago, as reported by 6pm Channel 9 News.


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## Smurf1976 (27 June 2006)

It's big news everywhere I think. Heard it on the radio here (Hobart) this afternoon. Absolutely tragic...


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## pacer (27 June 2006)

THE OTHER THREAD FLOATING AROUND ABOUT WEATHER TO BRING IN THE DEATH PENALTY JUST CHANGED A FEW MINDS I BET...

i LIVE ONLY A FEW K'S FROM THERE AND AM BLOODY DISGUSTED A TURD LIKE THAT GOT AWAY THE FIRST TIME.

BRING BACK LYNCHING!!!!!!!!!!!

AND CRUCIFIXION....

DEATH IS REALY TOO GOOD FOR SICKOS LIKE THAT...HE EVEN BROKE HER ARMS AND LEGS APPARENTLY.......GODDAMN, IF ONLY WE COULD DO PUBLIC PUNISHMENT THERE'D BE ALOT LESS OF THAT CARRYON.


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## Julia (27 June 2006)

I think I've just changed my mind about the death penalty.  
Nothing else seems appropriate in this instance.

Julia


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## clowboy (27 June 2006)

They actually gave details about the offender and showed his face, as well as state where he is being held on the news.

I was a little worried what some of the public may do with that information.

Sad to think that two sets of parents have lost a child, but I have to say that the little girls parents have shown great courage and dignity in the way they have conducted themselves.

My heart truly bleeds for them.


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## visual (27 June 2006)

on the other thread about the death penalty,this was the point I was trying to make.Hold the people who allow these mongrels out in society responsable.Who for example helped this mongrel  find the so called tecnicality?had no one found this so called tecnicality this scum would not be out able to perpetrate this horrific crime again.You will now find that ,the new jury will not be allowed to hear about the other crime.And he will be  sentenced as though this was a first time.

The law is there to protect us,of course it has to be balanced but in my opinion the criminals always have the upper hand.Too many times the bleeding hearts present information to excuse these mongrels,and too many times they get it wrong and we as a community are penalised.Our freedoms are diminished while our taxes are used to support the people who the law is meant to protect us from.

The 8 year old went to the toilet on her own,surely she was old enough but how many parents already dont feel safe allowing their children this basic freedom.


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## bunyip (27 June 2006)

As evil as this animal is,  no doubt we'll still have people on this forum raving on about his right to life, and suggesting we house him in comfortable accommodation for the rest of his life, feed him nutritious meals, make sure he gets proper dental and medical care, TV, blankets to keep him warm in winter etc etc. 
Pathetic! Absolutely bloody pathetic!

This type of person makes me sick, but what makes me almost as sick are the fools whose opinions are sought because they have professional qualifications, (but are unfortunatley devoid of common sense) and they say rehabilitate him, let him back out in the community.

Bunyip


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

*As evil, horrific and abhorent as this crime is, it still does not justify a death penalty imo for the reasons I posted in the other thread.*

Imo, the minimum custodial sentence has to be a very long time to help deter others from committing similar offences and if after the minimum custodial sentence there is no genuine remorse and rehabilitation then you leave him locked up for the term of his natural life.

_Imo, those who believe in God should find it a lot easier to cope with a custodial sentence for serious crimes like this in the knowledge that we will all be judged by our maker eventually where true justice will be done.

Imo, those that do not believe in God are much more likely to want to take the easy way out and commit another blatant and cowardly murder (at least in the moral sense) by taking another human life to exact what they perceive as 'justice' but imo is nothing more than cowardly vengeance._

*In my eyes, there is very little distinction between the offender who committed the murder in the first place and those who would cowardly murder him as well in vengeance by stringing him up, strapping him to an electric chair or whatever other means they would choose.*

_Some   food for thought I posted elsewhere:_

_I suppose those that do not believe in God are hoping that they are right and everyone else is wrong because eternity is a hell of a long time to be suffering in hell (or whatever your equivalent might be) for getting it wrong (ie...committing blatant murder, legalised or not) in the relatively miniscule 80 odd years we spend on average in this life  _  

cheers

bullmarket


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## Mumbank (28 June 2006)

This story really is heart wrenching.  Watching it with my 15 yo daughter last night was very hard but now she has a better understanding of why I insist on walking her to the bus stop each morning and meeting her at the bus stop in the afternoons.  She also understands why she is not allowed to go for a run without the dog and the mobile phone.  I may be a little over protective but there are sooo many sickos out there its scary.

I don't believe this man can be rehabilitated and at very least should be chemically castrated - if oroven guilty that is.


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## Sean K (28 June 2006)

Bull, there is no judgement at the pearly gates. There is no hell.

This 'human' must be punished here on earth, and the most suitable punishment to achieve justice in this case would be death. IMO of course.

Your God can not possibly exist as you know it when He allows such acts to occur. Surely this questions your faith, not just in God, but in the human species. We are but animals living on this rock floating through space.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi kennas 



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> Bull, there is no judgement at the pearly gates. There is no hell.
> 
> This 'human' must be punished here on earth, and the most suitable punishment to achieve justice in this case would be death. IMO of course.
> 
> Your God can not possibly exist as you know it when He allows such acts to occur. Surely this questions your faith, not just in God, but in the human species. We are but animals living on this rock floating through space.




no problem  *but I disagree * - we went through all this in the other thread.  

You appear to be in the group that do not believe in God and that is fine by me........I'm in the group that do believe in God 

Regarding your post above, all I can do is refer you to my views on the consequences of the 'Adam and Eve' story in the other thread that imo helps explain why we have good and evil people in this world..........if you do not accept or believe it then that is fine.......it's each to their own beliefs on this one....

cheers

bullmarket


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## clowboy (28 June 2006)

Mumbank,

I feel for all parents that find themself in a situation of uncertainty - where do you draw the line.  When I first heard about this story they stated that her father was waiting outside the toilets for her (it was actually her uncle and he was not directly waiting outside the toilets for her).  I thought to myself, imagine how it would feel if you where only metres away....how much would you blame it on yourself.

I don't think that castration would achieve much in that it would not stop a repeat, just change his MO.  I also think that He COULD be rehabilitated (that does not mean that he ever will be but just that there is a chance).

The question is should he be given the oportunity to be rehabilitated?

Kennas, God existing as I know him (or not) is a hard question to answer especially when everyone's knowledge is so varied.  I think that in circumstances like these our faith is meant to be questioned.  I think that the question should be, IF god allowed this to happen? then why?

Bearing in mind that according to my beliefs the man charged with the murder of this girl (assuming he is guilty - god knows) is going to spend the rest of eternity in hell.  Anything we can do to him pails in comparision to what hell will be like.


His life on earth should only be spared if he repents and begs the forgivness of the family and society.  IMO.


Bullmarket, comparing the execution of a criminal to murder is a bit harsh IMO.  Are the soldiers at war in Iraq (and all other wars) murderers?

Thankfully I do not have to make these tough decisions but if push come to shove I could carry out the work of executioner and still sit well with god.  Bearing in mind that it is not something I would like to do and would be a heavy burden.


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## Sean K (28 June 2006)

Good points Clowboy, but what if hell doesn't exist? Your evil man is not going to be punished for eternity is he. Therefore he escapes true justice. 

Once again Bull, I agree. To disagree.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi clowboy



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> ................Bullmarket, comparing the execution of a criminal to murder is a bit harsh IMO.  Are the soldiers at war in Iraq (and all other wars) murderers?.................




ok no problem but imo I am not being too harsh at all......I just post things as I see them and give my reason why.

Regarding soldiers at war - I have posted elsewhere in various threads that my belief is that human life is sacrosanct and so the taking of another human life can only be justified in cases of self defence, be it in a war or whatever.

cheers

bullmarket


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## Julia (28 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> *As evil, horrific and abhorent as this crime is, it still does not justify a death penalty imo for the reasons I posted in the other thread.*
> 
> Imo, the minimum custodial sentence has to be a very long time to help deter others from committing similar offences and if after the minimum custodial sentence there is no genuine remorse and rehabilitation then you leave him locked up for the term of his natural life.
> 
> ...




bullmarket

It might be difficult for you to understand, but there are criminals out there who find a custodial sentence no deterrent whatsoever.  After all, they are housed, fed, given good medical and dental care and need to take no responsibility for anything.  Beats a life on the streets, doesn't it?

Julia


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Once again Bull, I agree. To disagree.




sounds good to me 

cheers

bullmarket


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## visual (28 June 2006)

Bullmarket,stop putting God in your argument,He gave us the ability to think for ourselves and we should so,no excuses .

If he does exist and I`m not a believer enough to know without doubt then I`m sure He will figure it out when we get there,

The industry that keeps these animals in our society benefits only themselves,lawyers,psychologists,ect...

Imagine if they went around saying you did the wrong thing lets fix it,instead these animals say, they are saying you did the wrong thing lets figure a way to get away with it.Not the same thing.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi Julia 

You are going to be hard pressed to convince me that *anybody* deliberately goes out to commit abhorrent crimes feeling that they will be 'rewarded' by life in a maximum security prison, with little or any luxuries, solitary confinement for probably 23hrs a day (for their own protection) and a total loss of their freedom to go where they like when like and do what they like when they like.

Life in a max security prison is no luxury or picnic by any means  

Also, using your logic one could also argue that someone who did not believe there is life after death might not see the death penalty as a deterrent either.....some might, some might not 

cheers

bullmarket


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi Visual 

if you have a problem with me expressing my views and beliefs/reasons supporting my views then simply put me on your ignore list....Joe posted instructions recently on how to ignore people.

I don't believe anyone has the right to try to censor people's views/opinions/beliefs....if you don't like or agree with them then you have 2 options

1) either post some verifiable info proving anything I post is wrong

2) put me on your ignore list

re your comment:



> Imagine if they went around saying you did the wrong thing lets fix it,instead these animals say, they are saying you did the wrong thing lets figure a way to get away with it.Not the same thing




I posted my views on this in the other thread by stating that I believe everyone has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty and so everyone is entitled to as fair a trial as possible.....I explained the roles of the law makers, prosecuting and defence lawyers to help ensure a fair trial.

If you don't agree with me then that's fine...we are all entitled to our own views 

cheers

bullmarket


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## visual (28 June 2006)

For God sake bullmarket,how about you verify,that what you think is what God meant you to think.
The bible is a very old book translated by people,who we know all too often fail.
And if you have a problem with what I say put me on your ignore list,same thing,people like you are what gives religion a bad name.You are so sure and yet,the Vatican keeps on modernising its views as represented in the Bible.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

No problem Visual 



			
				visual said:
			
		

> For God sake bullmarket,how about you verify,that what you think is what God meant you to think.
> The bible is a very old book translated by people,who we know all too often fail.
> And if you have a problem with what I say put me on your ignore list,same thing,people like you are what gives religion a bad name.You are so sure and yet,the Vatican keeps on modernising its views as represented in the Bible.




I don't have a problem with your posts at all as you are just as entitled to express your views as I am mine  

I was just reminding you of your options if you have a problem with my posts.

Regarding you asking me to verify my beliefs - as I said before, we discussed all this in another thread and so I am not going to copy and paste them here.

cheers

bullmarket


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## visual (28 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> I explained the roles of the law makers, prosecuting and defence lawyers to help ensure a fair trial.
> bullmarket



Bullmarket have you even being in a court of law? Maybe you should just spend a bit of time there I suggest the county court and the supreme court stay for the all trial,hang around the corridors before the courts open and listen to the prosecutor or defence lawyers of even the tipstaff just generally talking,you will learn a lot.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi Visual 


			
				visual said:
			
		

> Bullmarket have you even being in a court of law? Maybe you should just spend a bit of time there I suggest the county court and the supreme court stay for the all trial,hang around the corridors before the courts open and listen to the prosecutor or defence lawyers of even the tipstaff just generally talking,you will learn a lot.




yes I have 

cheers

bullmarket 

ps...I'll login again tonight if you want to discuss further


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## visual (28 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> Regarding you asking me to verify my beliefs




Bullmarket you misunderstand,verify GOD thinks what you think he meant with his lessons.Verify that,before you ask anyone else to verify any of their opinions.
You are just expressing opinions that are humanly,God on the other hand was more than a human,So how can you be so unmovable about what he thinks or what he meant.


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## clowboy (28 June 2006)

Kennas,

I thought I mentioned my stance on earthly punishment in the previous post but perhaps I should clarify.


We are obligated to punish acts of crime.  God or no God we should still enforce the law to it's fullest extent and punish those that need punishing.


Bullmarket, I honestly can not see how you interpert from the bible that acts of war are criminal - Ie one soldier killing another equates to murder.  I am not saying that war is good or that we should not try and prevent it, but we can not hold soldiers responsible for thier actions (orders).


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## Happy (28 June 2006)

Let’s have a look at it from all mighty god point of view.

If he is so all mighty, he would not allow this to happen – not my idea, heard about it but it makes our trusted god an accomplice of this and every other severely naughty thing.
Of course until he is not so all mighty and is unable to prevent any horrible action.

You were bulled and now you try to bull us, wake up now as eternity is long time.



And here I should write - I only said what I think, and I write as it is and as I see it and this is the only correct way and if you don’t agree with me now, well I’ll work on it and try to convince you otherwise before it is too late and mere end of life euthanasia catches up with you.

Does it look like bull?


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi Visual



			
				visual said:
			
		

> Bullmarket you misunderstand,verify GOD thinks what you think he meant with his lessons.Verify that,before you ask anyone else to verify any of their opinions.
> You are just expressing opinions that are humanly,God on the other hand was more than a human,So how can you be so unmovable about what he thinks or what he meant.




I really have to go now as mrs bullmarket is about to pull the pc's power chord out of the wall socket   so as I said in my last post I will login again tonight.....in the mean time my views on your post above are posted in the other thread and so if you are genuinely interested and not simply trying to suck me into repeating my views here then please feel free to go search my posts for my views on the above.

cheers

bullmarket


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## visual (28 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> Hi Visual
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So no verification,thats what I thought.


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## Sean K (28 June 2006)

Of course there's a God visual. He just operates in mysterious ways, and only appears to those who have faith. Or, are schizophrenic. Actually, there's some good books out by evolutionary psychiatrists that theorise that all the great prophets (JC, Muh, etc) had schizotypoid personalities which resulted in them hearing voices and having delusions of grandeur. Anyway, starting to get off the topic again I think...


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## wabbit (28 June 2006)

Is it possible to get the best of the both worlds?

Execute the sicko, so there is justice on Earth.  God forgives all those who repent so let the bastard repent his sins as they stick in the needle and he gets eternity in eutopia.

--

... and for the people discussing in this thread, the role of the soldiers in war, I think you do them tremendous dis-honour by even mentioning them in the same thread as this a55hole.

... if capital punishment is not helping to solve the crime situation, and life sentences just serve to fill up the prison system and the courts, is there a way to curb the miscreants before they go bad?  Corporal punishment seemed to work for a looong time?  Is it time to bring back the cat, the rattan and the 'Board of Education' ?

... and what of the lawmakers who make these laws with loopholes so people like this get a 'second chance'?  And the lawyers who got him off the first time around?  Aren't they partly responsible for this?  Often the intention of the law (the reason the law was written in the first place) is overlooked by the lawyers who argue only the words with which the law was written.  Is it time to overhaul the justice system to bring back common sense, in court to argue the logic of the law instead of the letter of the law?


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## 3 veiws of a secret (28 June 2006)

I was just discussing this thread with my wife ,and how we would stand outside a toilet for our child to do its business.Numerous occassions I would be asked by women 'Hey stop perving' (spelling?),but I never took heed of their ignorance.
The guilt on the uncles behalf must be enormous ,just like the two kids that where staying at their grandparents farm......sadly drowned as the roof gave in to the water tank,whilst the grandparents frantically searched .These events like all other hidden agonies must be a fantastic soul destroying impact to anybodies lives.
At times like these I always refer to that elton John ,or Bernie Taupin lyric " If there was a God in heaven,what is he waiting for"?
Plse don't preach to me about religion ,I spent 2 years of life in  Rome in a seminary.
I must admit I would be intrigued if the culprit spent some of his time in prison ie same cell with the guys who let this person out. How I would love to be the fly on the wall. 
 Just another thought my 8 year daughter saw her mum walking in the grounds of Taj Mahal this summer ,being a blonde child and one moment there next gone freaked me out ! those 3 minutes where pulsating my brain cells like a vice ! luckily I spotted her beside her mother where Princess Diana and Chuck had all the paparazzi photos taken.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 June 2006)

And there is this woman trying to get out of jail. A chef  

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=108595

All murders in the past derve the attention this latest has - death penalty for weirdoes.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> *As evil, horrific and abhorent as this crime is, it still does not justify a death penalty imo for the reasons I posted in the other thread.*
> 
> Imo, the minimum custodial sentence has to be a very long time to help deter others from committing similar offences and if after the minimum custodial sentence there is no genuine remorse and rehabilitation then you leave him locked up for the term of his natural life.
> 
> ...




Bull,

I`m sure the parents of the child would have a different opinion, as do I.

Weirdo!


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi wabbit 



			
				wabbit said:
			
		

> Is it possible to get the best of the both worlds?
> 
> Execute the sicko, so there is justice on Earth.  God forgives all those who repent so let the bastard repent his sins as they stick in the needle and he gets eternity in eutopia.
> 
> ...




Imo the best of both worlds is locking up serious offenders with no remorse or prospects for rehabilitation for the terms of their natural life and let them be judged by our creator......._as I said earlier, those who do not believe in God are much more likely to want to take the easy way out and commit another blatant cowardly murder by stringing up the offender or strapping him to an electric chair etc._

_Imo there is very little distinction between the original murderer and the people who would then murder, in at least the moral sense, the offender out of vengeance or some sort of perceived 'justice'_

I described my views in other threads of the roles of law makers and both defence and prosecuting lawyers to ensure as fair a trial as possible which *everyone* is entitled to imo.......where cases go to court, eventually it is the juries that find offenders not guilty and not the lawyers.....maybe we should encourage juries to iginore the 'legal speak' that goes on and put more emphasis on the original intentions of the law, but then different jurors may also have different opinions on the laws' intentions and that is where the law makers have to make them as clear as possible and without loopholes....easier said than done in some case though   

cheers

bullmarket


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi clowboy



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> Bullmarket, I honestly can not see how you interpert from the bible that acts of war are criminal - Ie one soldier killing another equates to murder.  I am not saying that war is good or that we should not try and prevent it, but we can not hold soldiers responsible for thier actions (orders).




*I have never ever said that acts of war are criminal - please refer me to the thread name and post number within that thread where you think I made such a claim.*

What I have always said is that imo human life is sacrosanct and the taking of another human life can only be justified in self defence - be it in a war or some other circumstance where your life is being unjustifiably threatened by someone else.

I hope this clarifies things for you 

cheers

bullmarket


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## kgee (28 June 2006)

I know it's dangerous to spread rumours so please remember that this is a rumour....
I just recieved this email

Hello friends
I am just so angry, frustrated and really upset at what has happened at the Livingston Shopping Centre that I needed to let you all know the "truth" behind the mongrel murderer.
About 3 yrs ago when I was working at the prison we found out that one of the boys (at the time aged about 12) that abducted James Bulger from a shopping centre in the U.K., then brutally raped and murdered him, had reached the age of 18 and had been sent out to Australia with a new identity for his family, etc. Long story short is that he was given the name of Dante Arthurs, his grandfather's name is Arthur Dante, and his family moved into a house in Canning Vale. When the prison staff got wind of this it was all supposed to be kept hushed up, it was some sort of prisoner exchange deal the Aust Govt set up. Soon after he got here he assaulted a 12 yrd old girl in a park in Canning Vale and consequently came to Hakea prison but for only about 6 weeks as they couldn't get enough evidence on him and the incident was brushed under the mat.
His parents used to visit him and their photos were on the computers at work and I clearly recall seeing his mum at the Livingston shops one day. I even had his address and because I've got friends and family in the area, I felt I had a right to tell them, stuff the prisons!!
I had even driven past his house in Lakeview Rise estate in Canning Vale! 
Anyway when this happened yesterday I said to Ron, it'd be interesting to see if it's that Dante Arthurs guy from the U.K. and sure enough today we find out that it is him. I am, along with a lot of others, absolutely furious that the mongrel ******** was allowed to come here via the Govt in the first place and that he was allowed to appear to live a normal life!! Why haven't the police done something about this - he should not be allowed to breathe air, he is the scum of the earth. And tonight he would be sitting back in a comfortable cell in prison, having just had a reasonable hot dinner and be watching TV! 
That innocent little girl and her poor family will never ever be the same again - all because the piss weak Justice System and Govt allowed him to live in our country! There is a register for paedophiles so that the community are allowed to know where they're living and yet this piece of **** can live on our back door step with a new identity. People winge about illegal immigrants, what about this?
It will be interesting to see what unfolds over the next few days, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's whisked out of the country in the same manner he was bought here, then again knowing our pathetic laws, we'll probably keep him here in our justice system, costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars to feed and entertain him PLUS the do-gooders will believe in their minds that they can rehabilitate him!
I was just going to type "sorry" but I'm not at all sorry for alerting my friends to something that should be publicly known.
Stay safe, talk soon.


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## Sean K (28 June 2006)

Great rumour kgee. 

Surely, this is a candidate for the noose? If he goes to jail he'll get his due I'm sure. I'm sure Aussie prisoners will deal out appropriate justice here.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi kgee 

which part of your email is rumuor and which part is fact?   

cheers

bullmarket


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## the_godfather4 (28 June 2006)

With all due respect to everybody's differing opinions on this vile crime, this piece of dog###t should not only be put to death, but he should first be made to feel the same pain that poor little girl felt in those few horrific minutes......I am a chrisitian and have been brought up in a good and religious home but animals like this are NOT human. They do not deserve to breathe the same air we breathe or live in prison while our tax dollars fatten them up so he can get out and do it again and again. There is no such thing as rehabilitation for monsters!

For all those who dont agree with this, just put yourselves in her parents position........ God forbid I was in their place i would hunt down this animal and let him feel the pain a thousand-fold because I have seen the pathetic way the legal system treats them..........I believe in karma and I only hope he gets his........otherwise i say call in the lynchmobs


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## ggmaximus (28 June 2006)

Bullmarket, 

Keep up the good work, where many rich young rulers abound it is great to see a brother helping shine the light and sow the seed. Seems to be a fairly hostile crowd you are tackling here.

I think I differ on your idea about what to do with this guy if found absolutely guilty though. It maybe that getting rid of him after giving him a chance to repent might prevent, or in a way defend another victim.  

I know that if I was the father of this girl waiting outside and caught him after the act I would break his neck without even giving him a chance to repent and would pray to God afterwards to ask if what I done was right. I would be very interested in what your thoughts are on this if it were you?

Cheers and God bless. 
Ian.


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## StockyBailx (28 June 2006)

Absolute sickin-ing thing that happened to that little girl, hope they cut his dick off! People like that add no value what so ever to my life. What Kgee said sound's very true, and not rumour. Just got off watching the 6O'clock news & there story on the subject is much the same as Kgee's.... Look's as though Kgee made the headlines and dobted the scum bag in.

Anyway, what planet you on bullmarket- seriously you sound like a broken down 2 bob watch.

All fact, true or false. Just to shoot the slag in the back of the head when he's not lookin. I work with children & I think thier sum of the greatest people around.

_Sorry to hear about it!_ * R.I.P*


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## The Mint Man (28 June 2006)

ggmaximus said:
			
		

> Bullmarket,
> 
> Keep up the good work, where many rich young rulers abound it is great to see a brother helping shine the light and sow the seed. Seems to be a fairly hostile crowd you are tackling here.
> 
> ...




Have you read all of BM's posts (in similar threads) on this forum?
If so you should know that he will never agree with your last comment. 



			
				StockyBailx said:
			
		

> Anyway, what planet you on bullmarket- seriously you sound like a broken down 2 bob watch.



more like a broken record.
get this... he comes in my recent 'death penalty' thread and says in his first post that he isnt going to post at all. he then went on to post several times just repeating the same thing over and over again in reply to different questions  Obviously not a man of his word!.. 
I thought I had worked out a way to stop him posting for a while there


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## robots (28 June 2006)

hello,

lets change the end result of a conviction, thats what people want and the recent poll shows this.

are the people in jail today innocent? i dont think so, but the usual cry from pro-life is you could be hanging an innocent person

thankyou
robots


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## ggmaximus (28 June 2006)

Hi mint man,

I will have a squiz round BM's other posts when I finish dinner, I think that the big problem with capital punishment if it ever came in would come about when they start to modify it to include lesser then lesser crimes.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi ggmaximus 



			
				ggmaximus said:
			
		

> Bullmarket,
> 
> Keep up the good work, where many rich young rulers abound it is great to see a brother helping shine the light and sow the seed. Seems to be a fairly hostile crowd you are tackling here.
> 
> ...




thanks and no problem  - it seems some have difficulty coping with the fact that I am entitled to my views and supporting reasons/beliefs just as they are entitled to theirs and some try to get aggressive towards me if our views differ ......but as I said in other threads, I have a very thick skin and it's all water off a duck's back to me 

Regarding you asking me for my thoughts - I thinks it's pretty clear what my thoughts are from my earlier posts.....but suffice to say that unless you could show you broke his neck in self defence, imo you will be hard pressed to convince God you did the right thing.....hope this helps   

cheers

bullmarket


----------



## visual (28 June 2006)

kgee said:
			
		

> I know it's dangerous to spread rumours so please remember that this is a rumour....
> I just recieved this email
> 
> Hello friends
> ...





Kgee,this is not rumour.
Last time I read about this scum,one of them had been involved with a girl who got pregnant and because of the new identity the people involved with him couldnt inform her that he was one of these bastards.I cant recall all the information now,but I dont think he can be around children,I cant recall how it ended up from there.But the girl couldnt be told the truth otherwise his identity would be blown,I think she had the baby but,not sure of the other details,while back.Still hope what you posted is a rumour.


----------



## Joe Blow (28 June 2006)

Just regarding this rumour:

Police deny Bulger killer link to Sofia: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...r-link-to-sofia/2006/06/28/1151174254716.html


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi MM



			
				The Mint Man said:
			
		

> Have you read all of BM's posts (in similar threads) on this forum?
> If so you should know that he will never agree with your last comment.
> 
> 
> ...




*It's pretty clear to me that you are totally frustrated at the fact that I am entitled to my views just as you are yours and so you are now resorting to telling blatant lies because you seem to have difficulty coping with our differing views.*

I never said in my first post that I wasn't going to post at all...so let me refresh your memory on what I *actually* said:



> i can't take this thread seriously if you're not prepared to put up your view and hope that someone else puts it up for you
> 
> so i'll take the easy way out as well and hope someone "will say exactly what I think anyway" as well
> 
> can that person please vote for me as well




All I said was that I hope someone will say exactly what I think (as per your earlier post in the thread ) and since no-one did I decided to post my views for myself....it's as simple as that

*So if you want to be taken seriously and have any credibility, maybe consider getting your facts straight before posting and stop telling blatant lies * 

cheers

bullmarket


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## ggmaximus (28 June 2006)

Hello again Bullmarket,

You are probably getting sick of talking about this topic by now so sorry for being a pest but I would really be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

You and your young daughter are at the shopping complex having a great time, looking at pets in the animal shop, maybe buying some gifts with her to give to mum for mothers day. You both are feeling hungry after your exciting day out so you sit down to enjoy a nice lunch, your daughter finishes her meal while you are enjoying your coffee and reading the local paper, checking the stock report ect. Your daughter asks you if she can go to the toilet to which you reply ok but be quick, feeling safe that the restrooms are on 10 meters away you let her go an continue to read the paper. 5-6 minutes go by an you look up wondering what’s taking her so long so you get up and head over to the rest rooms. As you arrive you hear her muffled scream so you race in where you find your little girl, naked, legs spread lying in a pool of blood running from her nose. You can tell just by looking at her that her life has been taken from her. Above her you see a semi dressed man just buttoning up his jeans with blood trickling down his hands and a what you going to do about it type look on his face.. 

At this point BM , what would you do? (please think about it before responding)

Sorry for being so dramatic about it but if I’m not I might be fobbed off with a weak answer that does not actually reflect what you would most likely do if you were in this situation.

P.S. I would not try and convince God I’d done the right thing but ask him if what I done was right. If he tells me it was not and I should have done something else I would fall to me knees and ask for forgiveness and understanding.

Once again God bless and continue to be lead by his word.
Ian.


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## bullmarket (28 June 2006)

Hi ggmaximus

To be honest I don't know how I would actually react....for all I know I could possibly go into shock and collapse or call out for help or grab the guy but I guess my very first reaction would be to grab my child and try to revive her as I doubt very much I would accept that she was dead on first seeing her - I doubt any parent would.......*but my earlier posts make very clear what I woud not do * 

Prison break has started so we can discuss more tomorrow sometime if you like.

cheers

bullmarket


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## ggmaximus (28 June 2006)

Yeah I love prison break too, pitty I have to wait a few more months because I've seen all of season one. 

Its a pitty micheal dies climbing over the wall though...jk 


goodnight all.


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## the_godfather4 (28 June 2006)

What differentiates humans from animals???? Brains and free will........we have free will and animals have instinct....yet if a dog mauls a human, its put down no questions asked!!!! The same should go for this guy. He is an animal because if free will drove him to this act, he is not human. 

And GGM, in answer to your earlier question.......i would rip his head off with my bare hands......God WOULD forgive me because what i have done is save dozens of further innocent kids from this animal and hundreds of parents from the nightmare!


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## bunyip (28 June 2006)

It's cowardly NOT to kill these scum. 
If we came across some mongrel attacking a little kid or raping him/her or killing him/her or whatever, we'd be absolute low down cowards if we didn't step in and protect the child if we possibly could, even if it meant killing the attacker.
It's cowardice of the lowest order that governments and do gooders and bleeding hearts and fools with professional qualifications and spruikers of Christian claptrap and others devoid of common sense will not take responsibility to protect everyone in society,  particularly young children, by permanently eliminating these scum once and for all, i.e. execute them.

Bunyip


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## clowboy (28 June 2006)

ggmaximus,

While it can never be stated with absolute certainty what I would do under those circumstances (anything is possible) I would have to also lean towards flying into a fit of rage and killing the man on the spot.  I don't think that is the right thing to do but I would have to say it is brave man that says that would be able to hold back.


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## clowboy (28 June 2006)

bunyip, this is a good point

"If we came across some mongrel attacking a little kid or raping him/her or killing him/her or whatever, we'd be absolute low down cowards if we didn't step in and protect the child if we possibly could, even if it meant killing the attacker."


Even if it is not our own child, our reactions are likely to be serve.  I think though that in stoping the crime and the offender ending up dead would become a self defence case.


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## bunyip (28 June 2006)

the_godfather4 said:
			
		

> What differentiates humans from animals???? Brains and free will........we have free will and animals have instinct....yet if a dog mauls a human, its put down no questions asked!!!! The same should go for this guy. He is an animal because if free will drove him to this act, he is not human.
> 
> And GGM, in answer to your earlier question.......i would rip his head off with my bare hands......God WOULD forgive me because what i have done is save dozens of further innocent kids from this animal and hundreds of parents from the nightmare!




Godfather, that's one of the best posts on this thread. You're a rare commodity....a Christian who, rather than spruiking Christian claptrap like some, thinks for yourself. 
You've made a point that some people just don't have the mental capacity to understand.....whevever we kill one of these scum we save others who are more worthy of life. Kill one scumbag, save dozens of innocent kids. Any thinking person will recognise this as a good trade off.

Bunyip


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## Julia (28 June 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Great rumour kgee.
> 
> Surely, this is a candidate for the noose? If he goes to jail he'll get his due I'm sure. I'm sure Aussie prisoners will deal out appropriate justice here.




Exactly so, Kennas.  I was discussing this case with an ex-prisoner today and he described in very graphic terms the fate of this creature in prison.  And it will not be a one-off punishment.  Everyone will have their turn.  The guards will look the other way.  Quite possibly he will consider the death penalty would have been a preferable alternative.

So perhaps some sort of justice will occur.

I can't get that little girl's face out of my mind.

Julia


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## Sean K (28 June 2006)

Godfather,

I think if we think about it a little bit more, we'll find that humans are animals too, and we also work off instinct. Everything we do in life is based on hormones designed to assist us to survive.

I've gone down this path in previous posts but I leave it to you to consider it a little bit more. What actually makes us act the way we act? What drives us? Our thoughts and emotions driven by hormones stimulated by the environment and nature resulting in actions. 

You were right, this guy is an animal, just like the rest of us. Some of us are in situations where we can control ourselves better. Either as a result of our genes, or environment. It's nature and nurture. And then there are hormone and chemical imbalances causing people to act irrationally. 

The only way this guy could act in this way is by either of the above. He's a human animal and should be punished in this world.


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## yogi-in-oz (29 June 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> I think if we think about it a little bit more, we'll find that humans are animals too, and we also work off instinct. Everything we do in life is based on hormones designed to assist us to survive.
> 
> I've gone down this path in previous posts but I leave it to you to consider it a little bit more. What actually makes us act the way we act? What drives us? Our thoughts and emotions driven by hormones stimulated by the environment and nature resulting in actions.
> 
> ...






Hi folks,

..... and yes, yes, yes, Kennas ... !~! 

Please bear with some introductory groundwork here, 
in order to establish a foundation, for comment on the 
subject of this thread.

-----

If we pursue your line of thinking, we can refer to Harold
Anson's work, where he looks at animals and man, soon
after Creation.

He says in the sense that an animal is sinless (even today),
then man was also created without consciousness of right
or wrong (sin). 

"Man's Fall came with the emergence of the faculty of moral 
choice and the act of choice leading to a sense of sin and
failure to evolve; the life of sex, the relation to the Divine
mind and to other creatures, becomes explicit, where before
it had been mechanical."

"Original sin is the desire of the race NOT to evolve, 
to remain where it was" ..... this natural regression to
animalism is within us all and it is the very reason, why 
good people (as shown in this thread) revolt and make 
fierce war on those who revert to animal pleasures, like
this killer has done.

----

Now, to this killer's future ..... Julia has already
alluded to what he will likely face in prison, at the hands
of the inmates, with the blessings of the prison guards.

As regards to earthly justice,  this should be left to our
justice system, whether we personally see it as adequate
or not ..... (as you will see, it matters not, anyway.)

Some systems seem to mete out a fairer form of justice 
than others, but at the end of the day, we must trust the
justice system, that we have in this country.

Looking back to OT times, the monothetic God did not deal 
out eveyday justice to individuals, instead that was left to
the lawmakers and kings of the day and for the most part,
they did a good job .....

..... and so it is today, justice should be left to our leaders
and the lawmakers, as it does not really matter, because:

A Christian perspective tells us, that even that treatment in 
gaol will only be a SMALL indignity compared to what he will 
face, in years to come .....:

_Matthew 18:6 

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe
in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged 
about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of
the sea."_

Clearly, anybody reading the passage above can see, 
that this killer's destiny is sealed in continual punishment
reserved for the worst violators of God's law, regardless of
what happens in the justice system ..... !~!

So, despite our emotions upon hearing about such crimes,
revenge is not ours take, so let's leave it to those that
have been appointed as lawmakers, to express our rage ..... 

..... and even if they fail in our eyes, please be comforted 
by the  passage above, this killer WILL SUFFER for his sin  !!!

Blessings upon you


       yogi


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi bunyip



			
				bunyip said:
			
		

> It's cowardly NOT to kill these scum.
> If we came across some mongrel attacking a little kid or raping him/her or killing him/her or whatever, we'd be absolute low down cowards if we didn't step in and protect the child if we possibly could, even if it meant killing the attacker.
> It's cowardice of the lowest order that governments and do gooders and bleeding hearts and fools with professional qualifications and spruikers of Christian claptrap and others devoid of common sense will not take responsibility to protect everyone in society,  particularly young children, by permanently eliminating these scum once and for all, i.e. execute them.
> 
> Bunyip




I agree 100% that we need to protect children and also the vulnerable and elderly in our society from predators....that goes without saying.

But deliberately murdering (in at least the moral sense) ,legally or not, offenders is not the way to do it for the reasons I posted earlier and as reinforced by yogi which I also agree 100% with.

*The reason I see murdering offenders as cowardly is because whether we like it or not,  we do have other options like the one I posted originally.  

In my eyes somoene who is willing to murder an essentially defenceless human being, at their supposed time of execution, regardless of their offence by stringing him up, strapping him to an electric chair etc etc is no less a coward and murderer than the original offender was when he committed his crime against a defenceless person in the first place. 

Murdering the offender is nothing more than self gratutious vengeance imo.*

I also agree 100% with yogi's post 

cheers

bullmarket


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## 3 veiws of a secret (29 June 2006)

I stopped reading this entire thread .......but a thought came across to me ....possibly touched on by other ,I just dunno~!........
Now if this Dante guy killed this innocent girl......then are we to assume he attempted this before,perhaps other days,but never got the nerve to kill somebody at the time,or possibly other children where stalked on that day but just managed to get away........
My mind is at loggerheads with this madness.......


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Relax Three Views. We are very lucky here in Australia. I deployed to Rwanda with the UN in 1994 after the genocide to pick up the pieces and there are much worse things in life. Trust me.


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## bunyip (29 June 2006)

yogi-in-oz said:
			
		

> _Matthew 18:6
> 
> "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe
> in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged
> ...




Yeh yeh Yogi.....I'm sure that's all very inspirational stuff. But it fails to address the problem of what to do with these scum while they're here on earth, and it fails to address the problem of how to protect the innocent little kids who are exposed to these mongrels.
Imposing a sentence of life imprisonment is clearly not the answer. For a start, life doesn't mean life at all, it usually means about 13 years.
Apart from that, even the odd one who is sentenced 'never to be released' can always appeal the sentence, and he'll invariably find lots of idiotic supporters for his cause. Particularly if he plays the system while in prison by feigning remorse, participating in rehabilitation programs and so on.

Those who are given the responsibility of assessing these people throughout their prison term, and deciding whether or not the person is rehabilitated and fit for release, are clearly big on professional qualifications but small on common sense.
Consider the case of Queensland paedophile Dennis Ferguson, the charming chap who kidnapped three children between the ages of four and eight, held them captive in a motel for five days and repeatedly raped them.
It must be patently clear to anyone with the capacity for clear thinking that Ferguson was never fit to set foot in society again. Just one look at the guy was enough to reveal that he wasn't the full quid, that he could never be rehabilitated. But you guessed it.....Ferguson was assessed by some professionally qualified person who has the IQ of a gum leaf, and this person said in effect "No worries folks, Mr Ferguson is reformed, he's rehabilitated, he won't do those naughty things again. He liked raping little kids once, but that's all in the past. He's not like that anymore. He's a changed man. We'll let him back out in the community....there won't be any problems."

So Ferguson was released, much to the disgust of everyone with even a small amount of common sense. A few weeks later he reoffended by raping a 9 year old girl.

So don't go beating your Christian drum too loudly, Yogi. What happens to these scum in the next life (if there is one) is not the issue here. The issue here is about how we handle these scum and stop them preying on innocent little kids.
What are your thoughts on addressing this issue?

Bunyip


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi Bunyip

Locking up serious offenders with no chance of rehabilitation or remorse for the terms of their natural life is a viable alternative to murdering them out of vengeance by hanging, firing squad etc etc. _because it keeps them permanently separated from society._

Maybe laws have to changed to disallow appeals or early release and how you go about that is a whole new thread, but the principle of being locked up for your natural life is still valid imo.

As I said in my original post, the pros of this alternative greatly outweigh the cons as I see it 

_Someone posted a link earlier in this thread that clearly showed that prisoners on death row in the US have since been found to be not guilty of their charges and luckily before they were executed _.........*so you can bet your bottom $ that if we introduced the death penalty, one day you will be executing an innocent person*

I could be wrong but your posts seem to be driven by bitterness towards those like I who have differing views and beliefs to yours.

Maybe try to relax a little and just accept that we are all entitled to our own views and beliefs  

cheers

bullmarket


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## Bobby (29 June 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Yeh yeh Yogi.....I'm sure that's all very inspirational stuff. But it fails to address the problem of what to do with these scum while they're here on earth, and it fails to address the problem of how to protect the innocent little kids who are exposed to these mongrels.
> Imposing a sentence of life imprisonment is clearly not the answer. For a start, life doesn't mean life at all, it usually means about 13 years.
> Apart from that, even the odd one who is sentenced 'never to be released' can always appeal the sentence, and he'll invariably find lots of idiotic supporters for his cause. Particularly if he plays the system while in prison by feigning remorse, participating in rehabilitation programs and so on.
> 
> ...



Well said Bunyip,
Have you noticed that most child molesters seem to have an affiliation with church groups !
Therefore are most sicko's  religious ?  

Bob.


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi bobby 



			
				Bobby said:
			
		

> Well said Bunyip,
> Have you noticed that most child molesters seem to have an affiliation with church groups !
> Therefore are most sicko's  religious ?
> 
> Bob.




I'm not convinced your assumption is true.

What verifiable data are you using to make *your assumption * "....most child molesters seem to have an affiliation with church groups !"

cheers

bullmarket


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Interesting point Bobby but I'd be hesitant to say 'most'. 

The prevalence of child molestation by Catholic and Christian Brothers leaders could be viewed at in two ways. 

1. Did they join the church because they wanted access to little boys and girls, or

2. Did they need to satisfy their inate desire for sex, which their faith prevented them from satisfying, this then driving them to satisfy their desires by the most readily available source. 

Not quite on the topic though. There's nothing to say this guy was a 'Christian'. Yet.


----------



## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

It looks like we are slowly drifting off topic now 

*In another thread I posted the obvious fact * that even christians commit crimes and so I'm not sure where we are heading now.........but anyone will be hard pressed to convince me, in the absence of verifiable data, that the % of christians that actually commit any crime is not a miniscule % of the total number of christians in the world 

Like in any basket of apples there are bound to be a very small number of bad ones   

cheers

bullmarket


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## sails (29 June 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Well said Bunyip,
> Have you noticed that most child molesters seem to have an affiliation with church groups !
> Therefore are most sicko's  religious ?
> 
> Bob.



Sadly I have to agree with your first statement, Bob.  Not only church groups, but anywhere they can gain the trust of children.  I think they especially like the church groups because Christians are taught to forgive and they are more likely to get off lightly.

How do I know????   The ex husband was one such individual and I was so trusting and naive and didn't know what he was up to for many years - he not only abused kids but also the trust of his own family.  He was so "respected" in his work with children in a church that even when some of the girls told their parents, they were not believed.  Eventually it all came out and although many did, some of the parents would not allow their children to testify because they felt they should forgive.

I don't think it is all the fault of the church when seemingly "good" people offer their services to help out.  It just seems to be part of the child molesting mentality to deceive as many as possible.  I believe that blue cards are now necessary for those working with children in churches - hopefully they will help to protect - but these types have an incredible ability to deceive.

Needless to say, that marriage ended in divorce and I chose to move on without bitterness and did not blame God for the sickening choices the ex made with his right to a free will.  However, I do feel that faith in God gave the added strength I needed during a very difficult time.  This all happened a long time ago now and I have since been happily married for many years to a wonderful husband.

So, I don't think sicko's actually have much respect for God or they would not do what they do - they just know how to work the system and I guess they learn how to be the "wolf in sheeps clothing".


----------



## sails (29 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> It looks like we are slowly drifting off topic now
> 
> *In another thread I posted the obvious fact * that even christians commit crimes and so I'm not sure where we are heading now.........but anyone will be hard pressed to convince me, in the absence of verifiable data, that the % of christians that actually commit any crime is not a miniscule % of the total number of christians in the world
> 
> ...




I don't think anyone here is saying that all church people are bad - far from it.  But the problem is that a few bad apples can do a lot of damage.


----------



## 3 veiws of a secret (29 June 2006)

KENNAS "Relax Three Views. We are very lucky here in Australia. I deployed to Rwanda with the UN in 1994 after the genocide to pick up the pieces and there are much worse things in life. Trust me."

I'm well aware of the situations in other parts of the world, have travelled extensively,and have this sadistic option of slumming around here and there ,I think some people refer to it as backpacking ,haaaaaaaaaa.
But yes your quite correct,I was more focused to the events in Perth and without realising it,it can happen anywhere in OZ.
Like a friend of mine said many years ago,murderer's are only murderers when they are caught. The ones that are not caught are not front page news are they,until they are caught,yet they walk amongst us.
That Darmer(???) guy who cut his victims boiled them,stored them in his fridge ......was only caught because of the smell that got away,errors of his habit,possibly an occupational error.
But I do hear you re: Burundi/Rwanda situation.I think I'll rather be the monkey then the organ-grinder on this thread.


----------



## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi sails 



			
				sails said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone here is saying that all church people are bad - far from it.  But the problem is that a few bad apples can do a lot of damage.




yes you may be right 

The point I was trying to make is that even in the worst case scenario where all criminals might claim to be christian (*and I don't think it's anywhere near 100%*) then they are still a miniscule % (bad apples) of the total number of christians in the world.

And so yes I agree with you that those who have little or no belief in christianity could easily make a grossly incorrect generalisation imo based on a miniscule % of 'bad apples'.

cheers

bullmarket


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## visual (29 June 2006)

Bullmmarket,
FREE WILL, this is what sets people apart from animals,
what the hell has religion or defence of christianity  to do with that?
God already knew that humans are fallable so He gave us FREE WILL,and then gave us the rules to deal with those who didnt make good decisions.

As we can see not many people take into account those rules,its all about money.The excuse industry runs on it.Hence the reason he was free in the first place.Yeh already know to look up your old posts for your other opinions,


----------



## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Ooooh, But does FREE WILL truly exist???

That's a whole semester at university. Books have been written on it!


----------



## visual (29 June 2006)

ye that would come under the excuses industry.

If we dont have free will then it would go without saying that we are all following one another,yet going by this incident not too many people have behaved like him,so ,what does that mean,

People only behave the way we let them,


----------



## Sean K (29 June 2006)

I think we're all programmed vis. Free will is an illusion.


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## visual (29 June 2006)

so you went to Rwanda and because everyone was chopping each other up,you joined in right.
Doubt it,the Australian army doesnt work like that.

If we have to include religion in this argument ,free will makes up a huge extension of it,otherwise no one would know where they stood.


----------



## pacer (29 June 2006)

Seems to me we are off the topic but I'd like to point out the history of the church (and other religous groups), has been plagued by all sorts of hidden depravity, that continues to be coverd up to this day. 
This is the way they work, by mind control and threats of eternal damnation (which I think is a crock.....made up) to scare the masses into submission. Fear is a very powerful tool and when bred into you at a young age, has an almost unbreakable power.
As for  genocide...christians, over the centuries (the crusades for instance), and even in the last two centuries in australia, are the worst offenders.
It's no wonder religions are becoming less popular......it's a farce, and the leaders of such institutions are to blame.
I'd rather believe in tree spirts and the earth mother etc ect (but I don't) than be involved in a group of fear-mongering  power freaks who try to force thier belief on others.....

There is no heaven or hell, there is only life and death..make the most of it now....live hard die young and leave a good looking corpse

Athiest forever...... It doesn't mean I'm a bad person.


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## kgee (29 June 2006)

Murdering the offender is nothing more than self gratutious vengeance imo.[/B]

I just don't agree with this
If a dog attacks a child we put the animal down and this is seen as a rational act...why...because it is rational and logical
So why not use this logic with people that act worse than these animal's
Forget the self gratuitous vengeance...just a simple painless lethal injection- 
problem over


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Hmmm, no chopping in Rwanda. I'm a nice human.

But, did the people doing the chopping choose to chop? Did they have freedom to choose not to? In the majority, no. Those that did choose not to chop, were chopped themselves. There was no choice. No freedom to act. Perhaps our crazy man in Perth was in a similar situation internally.


----------



## visual (29 June 2006)

Rwandans were caught in a frenzy,however there wouldve been people not chopping,what were they excersing?free will.The people giving refuge what were they exersising free will.

Again why did the UN not act sooner,political consideration


----------



## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi Visual / kgee 



			
				visual said:
			
		

> Bullmmarket,
> FREE WILL, this is what sets people apart from animals,
> what the hell has religion or defence of christianity  to do with that?
> God already knew that humans are fallable so He gave us FREE WILL,and then gave us the rules to deal with those who didnt make good decisions.
> ...




Yes I agree everyone has the choice to either follow the 10 commandments or ignore them and do their own thing according to what *they* perceive should be the right thing to do.

*One of the 10 commandments God gave us is: 'Thou shalt not kill' * 

_To me that means that life is sacrosanct and the taking of another human life can only be justified in cases of self defence._

_Also, if you read through the 4 gospels in the New Testamant you will see that human life has a higher importance than animals_.......*I suppose one reason for that is because each one of us has a soul*, which lives on after we move on from this world, and animals do not. *That amongst other reasons, imo, is why it is ok to put down a dangerous animal but not a human being.*

cheers

bullmarket


----------



## Happy (29 June 2006)

In Australia we have more than 140 religions recognised, why bull one should hold us all at ransom.

Hope that next referendum will allow us to make a mistake from time to time and execute an innocent person and feel sorry.


----------



## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Where does your soul go Bull? 

I know you're going to say heaven, but where is that? Which cloud is heaven parked on? Give me a coordinate, anything. For eg, 5 degree north of the South Celestial Pole. he he.


----------



## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

hi Happy



			
				Happy said:
			
		

> In Australia we have more than 140 religions recognised, why bull one should hold us all at ransom.
> 
> Hope that next referendum will allow us to make a mistake from time to time and execute an innocent person and feel sorry.




I don't see why you should feel anyone is being held to ransom as everyone is 100% free to choose what they want to believe and what they think is a load of horse manure.

I have my views and beliefs and all I am doing is posting them just as those who have opposite views and beliefs to me are posting theirs....

cheers

bullmarket


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi kennas 

Thanks, I won the bet....I didn't think you would last with your 'agree to disagree' post earlier  without asking me another question in this thread.

To answer your question - you will find plenty of descriptions of what heaven is like in the New Testament and probaly the Old as well.

Now we have 2 choices here:

either I can go look up the references or you can  but since I'm not into spoon feeding I think it could be a nice little homework exercise for you tonight to go look them up .....but I'm not convinced you are genuinely interested in the first place.

Good luck 

Bullmarket


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## Bobby (29 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> Hi bobby
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Hullo Bull,

I'm convinced my assumption may be true , notice when the media report a sick'o thats just been convicted of a sex crime against minors, that 9 times out of 10 there associated with a religious organisation.   
Thats veritable, just research the news reports.

Bob.


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Well actually, as you know, I have read the Good Book and I can say that it does not say where heaven is at all except that it is 'The Kingdom of God'.  

Suitable vague enough to deter any rational discussion. 

Anyway, back to the topic!

Apparantly the crazy guy's defence lawyer is claiming that he won't get a fair trial because of that email kgee sent out. Good work!


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

ok no problem bobby 

*but now you're saying it may be true which implies you also accept the possibility that it isn't true*

But it doesn't matter really, because if you look at my and other people's subsequent posts to your original it's of little significance whether it is true or not imo.

In the mean time I'll continue to believ it isn't true 

cheers

bullmarket 

I have to go now.....will try to login again later


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi kennas



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> Well actually, as you know, I have read the Good Book and I can say that it does not say where heaven is at all except that it is 'The Kingdom of God'.
> 
> Suitable vague enough to deter any rational discussion.
> 
> ...




You couldn't have read it too thoroughly if that is the only decription you could find but in any case it doesn't give extra-terrestial coordinates as you asked for but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist.......I lose my car keys and even mrs bullmarket sometimes when we're out shopping but that doesn't mean they don't exist   the exact location of heaven is of no interest to me since I believe it exists anyway 

will talk more later if you like....really have to go now  : 

cheers

bullmarket


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

You can dodge this as much as you like Bull, the question was 'where' not what it's like. You just won't be able to give an answer. What type of belief system has the ultimate purpose in life to reach a place that you don't even know the location of? LOL.


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## kgee (29 June 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Apparantly the crazy guy's defence lawyer is claiming that he won't get a fair trial because of that email kgee sent out. Good work!




I hope your not going to put the blame on me if this guy gets off!!


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## TheAnalyst (29 June 2006)

This fellow will never see daylight ever again........and he will be banished to solitary for a very long time for his own protection..........never to be released stamped on his file...


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

LOL

It's all your fault kgee!!!!!!

Was good rumour but!

Still might be true you know. The government spin doctors have been in overdrive.


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Hi kennas 



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> You can dodge this as much as you like Bull, the question was 'where' not what it's like. You just won't be able to give an answer. What type of belief system has the ultimate purpose in life to reach a place that you don't even know the location of? LOL.




it appears to me you are again letting your frustration get the better of you because I did not dodge your question at all 

in my reply:



> You couldn't have read it too thoroughly if that is the only decription you could find but in any case it doesn't give extra-terrestial coordinates as you asked for but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist.......I lose my car keys and even mrs bullmarket sometimes when we're out shopping but that doesn't mean they don't exist  the exact location of heaven is of no interest to me since I believe it exists anyway




I clearly state that the Bible does not give the 'coordinates' for the location of heaven.

For me personally, the location is totally irrelevant and it can be anywhere God wants it to be  *I believe heaven exists* and that is all that matters for me....as I said earlier, most of the time I don't know the location of my car keys and a whole lot of other items but I still know they exist   

It appears to me you are trying to sidetrack this thread and so if you are genuinely interested in heaven then start a new thread and I and anyone else interested can discuss it there rather than derail this thread as I don't see how the location of heaven is even remotely related to the title of this thread 

*But the bottom line is that no-one can physically prove heaven doesn't exist anymore than I can physically prove it does......as I said before we are all 100% free to choose to believe whatever we choose to.*

cheers

bullmarket


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## Sean K (29 June 2006)

Nice one Bull.

Hey, I have to go out. There's this incredible bar somewhere down the road that serves free Grange and there are 17 year old virgins swinging from the ceiling. Plus, once you get in the door, you get to live forever there. Grouse!!   

Unfortunately, I just don't know the address.    I'm sure it's there though, I read it in a book!


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

no problem kennas 

good luck and have good time   

cheers

bullmarket


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## Bobby (29 June 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nice one Bull.
> 
> Hey, I have to go out. There's this incredible bar somewhere down the road that serves free Grange and there are 17 year old virgins swinging from the ceiling. Plus, once you get in the door, you get to live forever there. Grouse!!
> 
> Unfortunately, I just don't know the address.    I'm sure it's there though, I read it in a book!



Hey kennas,
When you find the address I will take Bull with me so he can pray for the Grange !   
I'll be up to outher stuff.

Bob.


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## bullmarket (29 June 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hey kennas,
> When you find the address I will take Bull with me so he can pray for the Grange !
> I'll be up to outher stuff.
> 
> Bob.




post the melway reference and we can all meet there


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## Happy (30 June 2006)

Off topic but possibly relevant
I used to believe in santa and ferries, turned out to be bull.

Some are little bit deeper in bull and longer.

Pity that taxpayers have to foot the bull bills.


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi Happy 

I am a taxpayer and I don't believe that as a taxpayer I am footing any 'bull bills' as you call it   

But then I suppose it depends on what people choose to believe is bull and what isn't  and that is all open to individual choices and beliefs which we are all 100% entitled to make for ourselves.........basically, what someone chooses to believe to be bull someone else might choose to believe is fact and vikky-verky 

cheers

bullmarket


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## Happy (30 June 2006)

Deeper off topic, but so be it, and probably will be forgiven, after all Joe is one of the softer all mighters.

So maybe bull activities should be taxed at the same rate as any other business activities?

Not the usual money in - $0 tax = all gain
Plus free many more add ons.


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi Happy 

you obviously admit in your post that you are off topic so why not then start a new thread, list these 'bull bills/activities' you refer to and I'm sure if anyone takes them seriously they will discuss them with you 

But as a taxpayer, I don't believe I am footing the bill for any of your so called 'bull bills/activities' as you claim for the reasons I posted before 

cheers

bullmarket


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## Happy (30 June 2006)

Next time you go to place of worship of your denomination, when you make monetary donation ask about amount of tax worshiphouse have to pay.  

If you strike a conversation you can also ask about other concessions like land tax and maybe there are more, then you can come back and confess how government assists places of worship, if you didn’t know about it yet.   

Take is as weekend challenge – I only said that because this is your line of ‘conversation’ and see what you can do with it.


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## Sean K (30 June 2006)

Interesting points yet again above. 

Just what is the status with land tax for religious organisations? The Catholic Church do own some pretty good pieces of dirt. And, if my brain is working correctly, many churches never actually paid for their land in the first place. Is that right Bull? 

Back to the topic though...

kgee is still in the poo over this one. The Ministers are talking about 'unfair trial' now. Perhaps he'll be sent to another country to be in jail for another 10 years and then get out and do it again. 

Or, he'll become a Catholic Priest....


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi Happy 

You seem to be disgruntled at the amount governments might or might not be  giving to various religious denominations and/or the concessions they might or might not be receiving.

*Me personally, I have no interest at all in the above because*:

1) there are much more important things for me to do

2) I have no more control on how much assistance governments might or might not give to religious denominations than I have on how much funding they spend on schools, roads, health etc etc 

*I personally have no problem at all with governments giving assistance to religious organizations*...._if you have a problem with that then go see your local MP and whinge to him/her about it  because I can't help you and have no interest in the information you asked for._

*I see your reluctance to start a new thread as suggested as a deliberate attempt to sidetrack this thread onto a tangent * 

Good luck...I hope you find the info you asked for.

cheers

bullmarket


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi kennas 



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> Interesting points yet again above.
> 
> Just what is the status with land tax for religious organisations? The Catholic Church do own some pretty good pieces of dirt. And, if my brain is working correctly, many churches never actually paid for their land in the first place. Is that right Bull?
> 
> ...




*I have no idea or interest whatsoever in the above because it doesn't affect me personally in anyway at all * 

but imo we are seriously off-topic now, so maybe you and Happy can start a new thread and if anyone else is interested or has any information you ask for then maybe they will help you.

cheers

bullmarket


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## The Mint Man (30 June 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> Hi MM
> *So if you want to be taken seriously and have any credibility, maybe consider getting your facts straight before posting and stop telling blatant lies *
> cheers
> bullmarket




Ive got them straight,

BM... your a goose!


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi MM 



			
				The Mint Man said:
			
		

> Ive got them straight,
> 
> BM... your a goose!





I re-posted what I actually said and it isn't what you claim I said 

*I've got a screen dump of the relevant posts, so if you feel slandered or defamed by me posting here and anywhere else I choose that you blatantly lie in here, then instead of wasting my time whinging to me  in here go hire yourself the best lawyer you can find and take me on infront of any regulatory authority you can find that won't also sit back with its feet on the table and laugh at you....I can't be any fairer than that  *  

let's see how you go 

cheers

bullmarket


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## Sean K (30 June 2006)

Hey, no worries Bull. I'm actually quite curious on this subject. Another time and thread.

Have a good weekend!!!!


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## wayneL (30 June 2006)

Please,

Lets not start talking about lawyers.

There is absolutely no need to go there guys.

cheers, stay cool


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## Joe Blow (30 June 2006)

Indeed, Wayne.

Gentlemen, perhaps its time to exercise some restraint and use those ignore lists we all have so we can avoid some unnecessary conflict. I will continue to advocate their use and look forward to the day this software allows me to force  members to put others on their ignore lists.

Thank you for your co-operation.


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## The Mint Man (30 June 2006)

> whinging to me



ha, get a mirror.

You always use your trademark comment


> It's pretty clear to me that you are totally frustrated



 etc etc etc blah blah

Yet you seem to get more fustrated then anyone else to the point that you spend hours on end here posting... re-posting and saying the same things over and over again. Mrs BM has to drag you off here apparently (as you mentioned in another post).  
You are entitled to your opinion BM, however you dont even need to put your point across BM (in threads along the same lines as this one) everyone already knows what your going to say.  as you say the same things over and over again.
fair enough, put your point accross once in each thread but why the need to do it several times?
Mabey you could move with the thread/s? mabey answer new questions that arise? and not direct people to answers in previous posts which usually dont directly relate to the questions asked, (Im not sure how you predict future questions asked of you  must be a god thing?) 

WayneL,
agreed

cheers


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## bullmarket (30 June 2006)

Hi MM 

no problem  but if people keep asking me the same or similar questions over again I will keep exercising my 100% right to reply, which sometimes results in repeating my views...it's as simple as that 

*You've obviously let your frustrations about my posts get the better of you to the point where you resorted to deliberately telling a blatant lie (and I said I have screen dumps of ALL relevant posts to prove it).*

_If you haven't got the mental strength to cope with my posts then simply put me on your ignore list or go hire yourself the best lawyer you can afford as I suggested before_...._*otherwise you're just wasting my time whinging to me in here * _ 

Try to relax over the weekend and not take my posts so seriously or personally 

*hi Wayne:* if anyone blatantly tells lies about me I will continue to send their details along with supporting screendumps to whoverer I see fit as I always have....as far as I am concerned it's none of your business.. 

cheers

bullmarket


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## wayneL (30 June 2006)

Ok folks,

Time to calm down.

Lets keep the thread on track. As Joe said, there is the ignore button if you find someone particularly irritating.  

Cheers


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## shasta (1 July 2006)

hmmmmm....another post deleted....and they are all related to using lawyers and this site and some posters   lucky I can take screen dumps before they disappear  like this one probably will


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## noirua (6 July 2018)

Not in Perth but in Scotland:
*Isle of Bute: Teenage boy known to Alesha MacPhail's family charged in connection with 6-year-old's death*
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-6-year-olds-death/ar-AAzDzkL?ocid=spartanntp


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## Tisme (7 July 2018)

bullmarket said:


> Hi MM
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That would be interesting...an Avatar takes another Avatar to court over hurt feelings. LOL


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