# Setting up a Swiss bank account from Oz: UBS or Credit Suisse or?



## vilmont (17 March 2012)

i want to set up a offshore bank account for the kicks and put a little money in there. im thinking either ubs or credit suiss in switzeland because its stable. is .ch the best option?

how can i do this? who do i pay?


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## McLovin (17 March 2012)

Whether Switzerland is the best option depends on what you intend to have the account for.

If it's just for sh!ts and giggles then it's no different to opening an account anywhere. 

You just need to ring the bank in CH and they will organise this. Not all banks will open an account for non-residents (I know Raiffessen don't) and they may also not open accounts for small deposits (a fair few have a CHF50,000 minimum). Contrary to popular belief, the bank will require a lot of documentation before they open the account. Expect them to also ask why you want the account, in which case I wouldn't suggest going with "just for kicks".


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## Solly (17 March 2012)

vilmont,

Why .ch ?

Here's a couple of viable offshore options with a local flavour and security.  

http://www.westpac.vu/vanuatu/

http://www.anz.com/vanuatu/en/personal/

Also I hear it keeps the Wickenby boys happy 

S


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## Glen48 (17 March 2012)

You can set one here in the Philippines with some ID and few $$ a safety deposit box is $25 PA, They have the strictest banking rule in the world to protect the crooks a judge here is on corruption charges and the law can't get his records.

The IRS is forcing over seas bank to declare who their USA customers are or be forced into being hindered, handicapped and other unspeakable things.  
 I assume as the depression gets worse all feds world wide will be looking for ways to collect extra cash.
 Now is a good time to act.


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## Tyler Durden (17 March 2012)

Slightly off topic, but:

1. How is interest earned from overseas bank accounts treated here for tax purposes?

2. Which country offers the highest risk free interest rate?


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## Solly (17 March 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> Slightly off topic, but:
> 
> 1. How is interest earned from overseas bank accounts treated here for tax purposes?
> 
> 2. Which country offers the highest risk free interest rate?




Tyler 

re point 1, of course you'd declare it as per..

http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/46908.htm&page=6&H6


re point 2, I believe that there would be no reason to look offshore. 

S


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## Tyler Durden (17 March 2012)

Solly said:


> Tyler
> 
> re point 1, of course you'd declare it as per..
> 
> ...




I had a feeling that was the case.

Also re 1, I wonder how our good buddy ATO would know? I created an overseas account recently and don't recall giving out my TFN.


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## Starcraftmazter (17 March 2012)

I've been wondering about this myself. 

Is there any way to have....something like a Swiss account at some broker (let's say IG Markets), play offshore markets (say Europe), and not have to pay tax on the profits?

The capital gains tax really pisses me off. The government provides absolutely nothing which justifies collecting it - so why should I pay them 50% of my profit?


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## So_Cynical (17 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> You can set one here in the Philippines with some ID and few $$ a safety deposit box is $25 PA,



Technically you need a Long stay visa of some kind...ACR Card (ALIEN CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION)

http://immigration.gov.ph/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=61


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## McLovin (17 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I've been wondering about this myself.
> 
> Is there any way to have....something like a Swiss account at some broker (let's say IG Markets), play offshore markets (say Europe), and not have to pay tax on the profits?




Only if you can find a tax free jurisdiction with which Australia has a tax treaty. I can tell you now, there are none.

FWIW, Switzerland is not a tax haven. They have some of the highest rates of taxation. The interest on a Swiss bank account is a flat 35%.


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> I had a feeling that was the case.
> 
> Also re 1, I wonder how our good buddy ATO would know? I created an overseas account recently and don't recall giving out my TFN.




Your TFN means nothing outside Australia. If you're talking about an insignificant amount then it's unlikely the ATO will ever find out. Not that I'm encouraging tax evasion, which not declaring it is.


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## Starcraftmazter (18 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Only if you can find a tax free jurisdiction with which Australia has a tax treaty. I can tell you now, there are none.




So what, if I move to Switzerland, I still have to pay tax in Australia?? Doesn't make sense.



McLovin said:


> FWIW, Switzerland is not a tax haven. They have some of the highest rates of taxation. The interest on a Swiss bank account is a flat 35%.




Couldn't care less - the important thing is that they don't have capital gains tax.


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So what, if I move to Switzerland, I still have to pay tax in Australia?? Doesn't make sense.




Err...no. Unlike the US, Australia doesn't tax non-resident citizens. If you are resident in Australia for tax purposes then you pay tax here, if you're not, then you don't.





Starcraftmazter said:


> Couldn't care less - the important thing is that they don't have capital gains tax.




You're not resident of Switzerland, so what does it matter what rate the apply on CGT. Also in many instances a capital gain will not automatically qualify as a CGT event. For example, if you derive the majority of your income through trading shares, then it is unlikely any tax authority will view the capital gains from those trading activities as a CGT event and instead will tax it as ordinary income. For real estate in Switzerland, many of the cantons do impose CGT.

Switzerland also taxes you based on your net value of all your assets every year. This rate is, iirc, about 0.5%.


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## Starcraftmazter (18 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Also in many instances a capital gain will not automatically qualify as a CGT event. For example, if you derive the majority of your income through trading shares, then it is unlikely any tax authority will view the capital gains from those trading activities as a CGT event and instead will tax it as ordinary income. For real estate in Switzerland, many of the cantons do impose CGT.




Property CGT are more provincial and federal in Switzerland aren't they? How can trading not quality or quality as a CGT event if there are not CGT taxes as such at the federal level?

Are you saying if you are a trader (nor formally employed) in Switzerland, you have to pay tax on your profit?


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Property CGT are more provincial and federal in Switzerland aren't they? How can trading not quality or quality as a CGT event if there are not CGT taxes as such at the federal level?




There is no CGT at a federal level. Each canton can impose a CGT on real property though (I guess they could on other property, I'm not sure).

When you share trade, you are carrying on the "business" of buying and selling shares. That is, you intend to earn your _income_ from the buying and selling of shares, not from the dividend stream.

It's similar to a company not being able to claim the sale of a piece of inventory as a "capital gain".



Starcraftmazter said:


> Are you saying if you are a trader (nor formally employed) in Switzerland, you have to pay tax on your profit?




Yes, like everywhere else in the world. In Australia, share traders are not entitled to the CGT discount for the same reason. On the flipside, because you are a trader you can offset your trading capital losses and gains against ordinary income. Which you can't if it's a CGT event.


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## Starcraftmazter (18 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Yes, like everywhere else in the world. In Australia, share traders are not entitled to the CGT discount for the same reason. On the flipside, because you are a trader you can offset your trading capital losses and gains against ordinary income. Which you can't if it's a CGT event.




What, are you kidding me? So you are saying, if I moved to Switzerland, I would have to pay income tax on everything I make through trading?

Well that totally ruins my life plan 

So which countries are good and do not suck enough to impose a CGT tax? Where can I make money freely from trading and not have to pay tax on it?


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What, are you kidding me? So you are saying, if I moved to Switzerland, I would have to pay income tax on everything I make through trading?




'fraid so. If it were that easy you could just move to NZ.




Starcraftmazter said:


> So which countries are good and do not suck enough to impose a CGT tax? Where can I make money freely from trading and not have to pay tax on it?




Plenty don't impose CGT, what you want is one that doesn't impose income tax. At a taxation level, trading has nothing to do with capital gains, it's all about income. It's not that easy to just move to a tax free jurisdiction. Then you need to make sure you're that wherever you buy and sell the shares doesn't impose some punitive tax on accounts domiciled in tax havens. 

People spend millions of dollars trying to organise this sort of stuff. And unless you have at least $10m it's not really worth the set up costs or running costs.


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## Starcraftmazter (18 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> People spend millions of dollars trying to organise this sort of stuff. And unless you have at least $10m it's not really worth the set up costs or running costs.




And that sort of thing is why I hate the world


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> And that sort of thing is why I hate the world




Don't worry, Switzerland ain't that great. It's cold, boring and so expensive. My per diem when I used to go over there for work was massive (GBP 70, iirc) and somehow I used to get through it easily.


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## Glen48 (18 March 2012)

I have been here 3 yrs and its pay as you go for a visa you can get a permanent one for about 4 G less if you married.
Depends on who you know in immigration, I opened my BPI account with my QLD licence and passport waited 1 week and got my debit card.
 I would assume you could come here buy shares put them in your deposit box and come back and sell at the stock exchange.

Not sure about putting shares in your name but not hard to find some one who will put them in their name for a few bucks.
I would think  safety  and security of funds will be more in important in the years to come.


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## Solly (18 March 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> I had a feeling that was the case.
> 
> Also re 1, I wonder how our good buddy ATO would know? I created an overseas account recently and don't recall giving out my TFN.





Aust has tax information exchange agreements (TIEAs) with most jurisdictions now, so no TFN required. If you've identified yourself to that financial institution as having an Aust address and that institution is in one of those jurisdictions, you are already in the club !

Don't forget that the ATO can slap an 'offshore information notice' on you if they have reasonable belief that more details are required to conduct an assessment relating to offshore income. 

There are only a handfull of jurisdictions now that have that have secrecy provisions and do not participate in TIEAs. I wont name them here, as I hold a dim view on those who participate in tax avoidance and evasion.

S


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## McLovin (18 March 2012)

Solly said:


> There are only a handfull of jurisdictions now that have that have secrecy provisions and do not participate in TIEAs. I wont name them here, as I hold a dim view on those who participate in tax avoidance and evasion.
> 
> S




I can think of a fair few off the top of my head. Although, most of the UK dependencies and colonies have been brought into line.

I would think that sending any sort of non-trivial amount to the countries I'm thinking of would trigger a red flag in Australia.


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## So_Cynical (18 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So what, if I move to Switzerland, I still have to pay tax in Australia?? Doesn't make sense.




The rich country's tend to Tax money where ever its from and the poor country's tend to not tax money that is made off shore.


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## Tyler Durden (18 March 2012)

Solly said:


> Aust has tax information exchange agreements (TIEAs) with most jurisdictions now, so no TFN required. If you've identified yourself to that financial institution as having an Aust address and that institution is in one of those jurisdictions, you are already in the club !
> 
> Don't forget that the ATO can slap an 'offshore information notice' on you if they have reasonable belief that more details are required to conduct an assessment relating to offshore income.
> 
> ...




Very interesting, thanks for that. I suppose the next issue is, how is the interest/income calculated in terms of currency? I mean, if I earn $1USD, then what conversion rate is used when I am doing my tax return?

Sorry if this is hijacking thread


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## Solly (18 March 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> Very interesting, thanks for that. I suppose the next issue is, how is the interest/income calculated in terms of currency? I mean, if I earn $1USD, then what conversion rate is used when I am doing my tax return?
> 
> Sorry if this is hijacking thread




Tyler

You need to get specific advice for your circumstances regarding the 'general translation rule', this determines when and how the conversion to Australian currency is deemed to have occurred for assessment purposes.

S


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## DB008 (18 March 2012)

Off topic Q, but still part of the whole tax question at large.

A friend told me that if you live outside of Australia for more than 50% of the year, you pay no tax. He splits his time in Australia, Singapore and the USA. 

He is a Australian citizen/resident and is based here, but does a lot of travel for business around the world (and the 3 places l named above).

Is this true?

I clicked on the ATO link above;


> As Australian residents are taxed on their worldwide income, they must report all relevant foreign income in their Australian income tax return. However some foreign-source income of Australian residents may be exempt from Australian tax. For example:
> 
> some employment income derived by an Australian resident working overseas




Looks like there is some truth to my mates statement. Where can l find more info on this?


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## Solly (18 March 2012)

DB008 said:


> Off topic Q, but still part of the whole tax question at large.
> 
> A friend told me that if you live outside of Australia for more than 50% of the year, you pay no tax. He splits his time in Australia, Singapore and the USA.
> 
> ...





Dannyboy

You may wish to seek further advice on the "183 day rule" 

http://www.ato.gov.au/content/36270.htm

S


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## DB008 (18 March 2012)

Cheers Solly.
I'll ask my friend some questions when l see him next, he's out of the country at the moment, lol...


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## McLovin (19 March 2012)

DB008 said:


> Cheers Solly.
> I'll ask my friend some questions when l see him next, he's out of the country at the moment, lol...




The 183 day rule is only one test that is used. You can also qualify under the domicile or superannuation test. 

Personally, I think if you went down the path your friend has, you'd want to have some pretty strong legal advice backing up your decision. Simply being out of the country for more than 183 days won't necessarily change your domicile. One of the first things the ATO would look at, is does your friend pay tax anywhere else.


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## Glen48 (19 March 2012)

If you wanted to invest some money etc over seas all you have to do is fly there do the deed and fly back, leave every thing in a safety deposit box and come back a few time a year if you like or let it sit there until you decide on your next step.


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## skc (19 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> The 183 day rule is only one test that is used. You can also qualify under the domicile or superannuation test.
> 
> Personally, I think if you went down the path your friend has, you'd want to have some pretty strong legal advice backing up your decision. Simply being out of the country for more than 183 days won't necessarily change your domicile. One of the first things the ATO would look at, is does your friend pay tax anywhere else.




Clear your PMs.

Sorry to divert the thread.


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## McLovin (19 March 2012)

skc said:


> Clear your PMs.
> 
> Sorry to divert the thread.




They be clear...


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## DB008 (20 March 2012)

Here is a very interesting article on Bloomberg about Swiss banking.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-19/swiss-secrecy-besieged-makes-banks-fret-world-money-lure-fading.html




> Switzerland and its banks benefited from laws protecting secrecy. The inflow of foreign money seeking a haven in the country contributed for decades to lower interest rates, making borrowing and expansion cheaper for domestic companies and boosting household wealth. Now, what promises to be the biggest shake-up Swiss financial firms have seen in 80 years is bound to leave scars on the economy.
> 
> “The problem with any good thing is that it’s too good to be true,” Gruebel said in an interview this month. “If you have that for too long, there comes a day when it falls apart. And that’s the case with bank secrecy.”






> Tax Evasion
> 
> The government has been in talks for more than a year with U.S. authorities, who after getting data on about 4,700 UBS clients are now investigating 11 other banks, including Credit Suisse, for alleged assistance in tax evasion.
> 
> Wegelin & Co., a 270-year-old Swiss bank, had to sell itself to save its non-U.S. business before the U.S. indicted the firm last month. Philipp Hildebrand, head of the Swiss central bank, had to step down in January after information about his wife’s foreign-exchange transactions was leaked by a Bank Sarasin & Cie. AG employee. Bank secrecy has become a point of mockery: A photograph in Neue Luzerner Zeitung featured a masked man at a carnival last month offering “cheap” Swiss client-account data on a compact disc as a “special offer.”


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## Calliope (2 June 2012)

The flight to safety. Investors are now *paying *the Swiss government to borrow *their* money.  



> Swiss bonds were returning a negative yield during trading today as the country's government sold 6 month paper at -0.148%.
> It means investors would receive less money than they paid for the bonds when they mature




Read more: http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...nd-yields-negative-market-panic#ixzz1waOKa7nv


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## Glen48 (2 June 2012)

Wait for gold and Silver to tank and buy up big somewhere around $1400 or less for gold.


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