# Unusual Trade



## Nicks (8 September 2008)

Refresh my memory - why are there some odd trades waiting in the market, for example 1 share in OZL @ 1.30 this morning, well below the market?

As far as I am aware, this doesnt mean that a sale will go through at 1.30. So what is this trade supposed to be achieving?


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## nioka (8 September 2008)

Nicks said:


> Refresh my memory - why are there some odd trades waiting in the market, for example 1 share in OZL @ 1.30 this morning, well below the market?
> 
> As far as I am aware, this doesnt mean that a sale will go through at 1.30. So what is this trade supposed to be achieving?



 OZL It is worth checking the OZL thread for details. has some other very unusual trades apart from that one. Each day lately there are preopen trades in fairly big volume being posted at well above the market price. Add the reported short positions that are alleged to have been taken and the situation witl OZL is confused further. Seems like there are some suspect price manipulation attempts being made here and it needs some checking by the market controlling agents.


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## skyQuake (8 September 2008)

Could also be brokers crossing trades or oppies/warrants being exercised.


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## Trembling Hand (8 September 2008)

skyQuake said:


> Could also be brokers crossing trades or oppies/warrants being exercised.




Nah!! Could only be price manipulation


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## Sir Osisofliver (8 September 2008)

Nicks,

Most likely it's an operator Placeholder.

Someone sitting behind a SEATS terminal has put that there, for a number of reasons.

1) lowest selling/buying price setter
2) VWAP marker
3) Derivative Swap price
4) "Bookbuild" Official or unofficial - price.
5) Morning price set and the market got away from him

I wouldn't worry about it. It'll go away.

Sir O


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## nioka (8 September 2008)

skyQuake said:


> Could also be brokers crossing trades or oppies/warrants being exercised.




 It almost certainly is that. But there is a fair quantity and the price differential is great. Someone is losing a lot of money daily with these trades that have been repeated each day.If a hedge fund knew that these trades had to be made and they could sell short they were in a position to "Influence" ( manipulate) the market. Maybe it is hedge funds trying to save their bacon. The possibilities are many and varied. Sometimes I think we are competing with loaded dice in this investment game.


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## Trembling Hand (8 September 2008)

Nioka you feeling sorry for the Option Market Makers? I'm pretty sure they can look after themselves. imp:


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## Out Too Soon (8 September 2008)

If somebody sold & bought a share @ $1.30 say .20c below market then they are setting the lowest trade for the day. Price manipulation for people or systems who use candles/or- without looking @ the details. Not something worthwhile for us small traders who wince @ $25 buy & sell fees but yes "loaded dice" indeed. What chance do we have?


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## Trembling Hand (8 September 2008)

^^^^^^^

OMG!!


:homer:


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## nioka (8 September 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nioka you feeling sorry for the Option Market Makers? I'm pretty sure they can look after themselves. imp:




They have shown that all they are interested in is looking after themselves and have not shown that they are capable of doing even that successfully at times. In doing what they do they add a degree of instability to the market as a whole. Anyone who belives they do not attempt to manipulate the market is living in fairyland.

 The reverse should be the case. They could add stability to the market if they were more accountable and open to scrutiny. All options trading should be made fully public information in the same way sales are recorded.

 Why is there so much criticism of any opposition to options trading as it is being carried out these days? What is there to hide?


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## Trembling Hand (9 September 2008)

nioka said:


> They have shown that all they are interested in is looking after themselves and have not shown that they are capable of doing even that successfully at times. In doing what they do they add a degree of instability to the market as a whole. Anyone who belives they do not attempt to manipulate the market is living in fairyland.
> 
> The reverse should be the case. They could add stability to the market if they were more accountable and open to scrutiny. All options trading should be made fully public information in the same way sales are recorded.
> 
> Why is there so much criticism of any opposition to options trading as it is being carried out these days? What is there to hide?





Nioka I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about. EVERY option trade is there for EVERYONE to see. Just like any transaction  

If you think an option market maker doesn't add anything to our market, like actually guarantee the options market, then I have no idea what your understanding of market mechanics are


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## Kauri (9 September 2008)

OO  MM  GG  !!  ( to quote someone else) 
   ....CONSPIRACY...   is uncovered..
 ........... Cross Trades held responsible...
..................TH.... please... spell it out..    ..
....
..
.
Teers
...........Kauri


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## skyQuake (9 September 2008)

To be fair, oppie mm's are angels compared to warrant mm's. At the end of the day, Oppie MM's are 0 delta, so they dont want to screw you too badly. The same cannot be said of warrant issuers, (esp UBS).


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## nioka (9 September 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nioka I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about. EVERY option trade is there for EVERYONE to see. Just like any transaction
> 
> If you think an option market maker doesn't add anything to our market, like actually guarantee the options market, then I have no idea what your understanding of market mechanics are



 OK. If it is easy as that could you please tell me the number or the percentage of OXL shares that are subject to an options trade and the price that is quoted.


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## Trembling Hand (9 September 2008)

Nioka every options trade is there for anyone to see. Every option string has open interest figures published daily. There is no secrecy in option trades they are quoted just like stock trades. Most trades reported before the day trading starts are option being exercised. The big jump in volume you see on the last Thursday/Friday of the month is all options related 


The loses you hanging onto melting you brains??


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## cuttlefish (9 September 2008)

nioka said:
			
		

> OK. If it is easy as that could you please tell me the number or the percentage of OXL shares that are subject to an options trade and the price that is quoted.




Nioka - short selling doesn't have much transparency, but exchange traded options movements are very transparent.

The attached image shows a market summaryfor OZL - the column "Opn Int" shows the number of open option contract positions for each series.   Intraday course of sales data shows every transaction including conditions codes that show whether there was an equity transaction linked to the options transaction.

Some of the more complex options transactions that involve multiple components are negotiated with the MM - quite often an options strategy or an equities strategy will involve a mixture of equities and options. Depending on the delay between the taker of the strategy agreeing a price with a market maker and the actual equities and/or options being crossed there may be some apparent disparity on that particular transaction to the prevailing trading price at the time the equities and/or options are crossed to the taker.

It would be great if there were this level of transparency surrounding short positions taken via borrowed stock.


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## Trembling Hand (9 September 2008)

cuttlefish said:


> It would be great if there were this level of transparency surrounding short positions taken via borrowed stock.





I would think its closer today than it was a year ago. Which I also think no one would be able to argue against, not logically.


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## wayneL (9 September 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nioka every options trade is there for anyone to see. Every option string has open interest figures published daily. There is no secrecy in option trades they are quoted just like stock trades. Most trades reported before the day trading starts are option being exercised. The big jump in volume you see on the last Thursday/Friday of the month is all options related
> 
> 
> The loses you hanging onto melting you brains??



They are related to those evil, wicked demon shorters... yep, it's dem market makers and shorters wot stuffed the market.


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## Trembling Hand (9 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> They are related to those evil, wicked demon shorters... yep, it's dem market makers and shorters wot stuffed the market.




Remember the good old days when it was us the 'Bloody Daytraders'

Then the naked Shorts......

And now its the Options Boyz...

Wait to someone with a tad of brains figures out its actually the futures traders....... Oh no that is not right, they are responsible for manipulating the Oil market. Forgot, Sorry.


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## nioka (9 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> They are related to those evil, wicked demon shorters... yep, it's dem market makers and shorters wot stuffed the market.




 Who said the market was stuffed. The market is manipulated not stuffed.  Actually I should be the last to complain. Even with my melted brains I can still do better in this market than when things are booming. The volatility allows me to trade between stocks and the number of shares I hold in most of the companies that I invest in keeps increasing and the trading is not as exposed to tax. My trading allows me to hold a lot of stocks "free carried" and I only hold those that I consider long term possibilities.

This thread was about "unusual trades" and there are plenty of them at the moment.


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## nioka (9 September 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Remember the good old days when it was us the 'Bloody Daytraders'
> 
> Then the naked Shorts......
> 
> ...




 When in reality it is a little of each and it is interesting to note that most of those involved in one are involved in the others. Enough to addle the brains of us that are ethical traders.


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## wayneL (9 September 2008)

nioka said:


> Who said the market was stuffed. The market is manipulated not stuffed.  Actually I should be the last to complain. Even with my melted brains I can still do better in this market than when things are booming. The volatility allows me to trade between stocks and the number of shares I hold in most of the companies that I invest in keeps increasing and the trading is not as exposed to tax. My trading allows me to hold a lot of stocks "free carried" and I only hold those that I consider long term possibilities.
> 
> This thread was about "unusual trades" and there are plenty of them at the moment.



You say a lot of things that you can't/don't/won't substantiate.

I'm making $100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 per week daytrading.

Do ya believe me?


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## nioka (9 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> You say a lot of things that you can't/don't/won't substantiate.




Who doesn't. Why should I. The best I will say is check out my stock thread posts and see if what I said could be done, was possible. Start with ADI and AUT. Then go to AGM (if it is still there) and follow it with MCR and OZL. Check NSL and CAG. TAS and EDE. ESI. FNT. LYC. to name a few. They are all free carried through trading during the "crash" plus others. I have a few dogs but they are not costing much. It's all there.


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