# WDC - Westfield Group



## RichKid (27 July 2006)

Just saw a mention of WDC and was surprised to see there wasn't a thread on this stock.
I've been trading in and out of this trying to pick the end of what appears to be a very choppy major wave-2, not the advisable thing to do altough you can trade it using traditional TA (support/resistance, triangles etc). We may finally see the end of this congestion, any breakout should be powerful considering how long it's been stuck in this range.  There is a breakaway gap at the foot of this recent up leg and a continuation gap just after that. I like the near monopoly status and quality management that they have (not to mention the political clout of Frank Lowy- he can get things done), not the best technical prospect though until it clears resistance.


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## Realist (27 July 2006)

I love WDC!!!      :1luvu: 

The largest retail property group in the world.  

It is not overpriced, pays excellent dividends, is well run, and well liked.

In all seriousness it could be Australia's largest company in the not too distant future.

A great buy and hold for 30 years share!!

Dividends announced in the next week or so as well if you wanna get in. Probably 60 cents a share..


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## michael_selway (27 July 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> I love WDC!!!      :1luvu:
> 
> The largest retail property group in the world.
> 
> ...




Yeah I like it too, the only thing maybe is the low growth forecasted, less than 5% pa for the next 2 years!

EPS(c) PE Growth 
Year Ending 30-12-06 99.8 17.8 -59.7% 
Year Ending 30-12-07 105.4 16.9 5.6% 

Earnings and Dividends Forecast (cents per share) 
2005 2006 2007 2008 
EPS 247.6 99.8 105.4 109.8 
DPS 106.6 106.6 106.7 111.0 

thx

MS


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## Realist (17 August 2006)

WDC is $18.65 today.

And has recently gone ex-dividend, 54.5 cent dividends.

It was $16.40 a couple of months ago.  It's up over 17% in 2 months.

NICE!!     

I'll hold, and hold...


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## Julia (17 August 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> WDC is $18.65 today.
> 
> And has recently gone ex-dividend, 54.5 cent dividends.
> 
> ...




Yes, Realist.  It's doing much better at long last.
And, before you ask, no I didn't sell it.  Never planned to until it went ex-dividend anyway.

Julia


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## Realist (17 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Yes, Realist.  It's doing much better at long last.
> And, before you ask, no I didn't sell it.  Never planned to until it went ex-dividend anyway.
> 
> Julia





Excellent!!!

And it's up more today!

Keep holding, just another 29 years before you can sell


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## Realist (29 August 2006)

Westfield reports 120% rise in profit
 August 29, 2006 - 10:50AM


Shopping centre owner Westfield Group has forecast operational segment earnings growth of six per cent for calendar 2006, and reaffirmed its distribution guidance for the full year.

Westfield reported a 120 per cent rise in first half net profit to $3.376 billion.

The headline result was impacted by a massive boost from $2.695 billion in property revaluations.

Operational segment earnings - a truer reflection of Westfield's performance as it strips out property revaluations - rose 9.4 per cent to $804 million in the first half, on a constant currency basis.

"Operational segment earnings are forecast to grow at approximately six per cent on a constant currency basis for the 2006 financial year," Westfield said.

"This reflects the underlying income growth from the existing portfolio and incremental income from completed developments."

The board reconfirmed its 2006 distribution forecast of 106.5 cents per stapled security.

Total revenues rose 60.2 per cent to $4.659 billion in the six months ended June 30.

"The ability of the group to continue to optimise operational performance, invest both in new assets and into its existing portfolio through redevelopments and, at the same time, efficiently recycle capital, are key ingredients for sustainable value creation," Westfield said.

Westfield said it is continuing to review wholesale fund opportunities, and is in discussions with interested parties about a $2 billion wholesale fund with interests in six Australian regional shopping centres.

Westfield also said the major tenants - including Marks and Spencer, Debenhams and Waitrose - are now committed at the White City project in the UK.

Westfield has 120 shopping centres with a gross value of approximately $56.8 billion, encompassing 22,000 retail outlets.

The board declared an interim distribution of 54.50 cents per security, up 6.7 per cent on the previous corresponding period.


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## michael_selway (29 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Yes, Realist.  It's doing much better at long last.
> And, before you ask, no I didn't sell it.  Never planned to until it went ex-dividend anyway.
> 
> Julia




WDC might be a good sell at 19 or 20? Not much growth left but good yield

Earnings and Dividends Forecast (cents per share) 
2005 2006 2007 2008 
EPS 247.6 99.6 105.8 109.8 
DPS 106.6 106.5 106.9 110.3 

thx

MS


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## Realist (1 September 2006)

I just got some WDCNB shares pop up free in my commsec account.

Westfield must have given them for free, wow a nice surprise!!   Considering they are $17 each.


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## marc1 (22 December 2006)

WDC closed @ $20.00 today alltime high with a nice dominant white candle and macd looking good for further short term price growth.
Looking good for next year if those americans keep shopping til they drop.
Kennas a good chart if you have the time - i'm still too computer illiterate.
merry xmas all


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## Sean K (22 December 2006)

marc1 said:
			
		

> WDC closed @ $20.00 today alltime high with a nice dominant white candle and macd looking good for further short term price growth.
> Looking good for next year if those americans keep shopping til they drop.
> Kennas a good chart if you have the time - i'm still too computer illiterate.
> merry xmas all



It's been a good hold for a long time and should probably keep generally going up. Commercial property seems to be going ok. Must admit I held Westfield America Trust for a couple of years before it became WDC and sold at about $18 earlier in the year as I thought the world was going to implode.....

Chart seems to be divided into 2 since it changed codes with the period up to July this year ranging, but going up. Then, since July, what a great run. I think this was a flight to quality and dividend payers by the market. Overall still going up and up by the look. 

There was definate resistance at $19.75 but smashed that today. 

As far as where this is going, looks just generally up, but it will be subject to general market conditions, specifically the American consumer continuing to go to shopping malls and maxing out their credit card....Just how long can that last?? Perhaps they need to be buying more malls in the BRICs? 

What's next on the cards for WDC? What else can they buy? London? NY?


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## mmmmining (22 December 2006)

I have not touch this one more a year.  I just bought a few last week, try to milk a few bucks out of it. Today I was out by accident because I never thought it could be up 5% in 10 days! Obviously I am wrong. Anyway, no regret.


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## marc1 (29 December 2006)

Mentioned wdc to kennas last week when it went through long term resistance
@ $19.70 , up from $18.90 ish to intra day high today of $21.18. A fair gain for a dividend income stock in what is one of the quietest weeks of the year on the asx.
I pose the question would wdc have a balance sheet that would impress the cashed up barbarians????? Just thinking outloud !


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## AnalysisParalysis (24 May 2007)

Well, I entered this one today, long position. 

Only after a move up to 21.00. Wish me well!

Note the possible intersection of support and trendline at 20.30. The trendline is adjusted to the lowest price action, so may be somewhat askew. 

Could be forming a nice sideways channel too. Could be doing a lot of things, but I'm long at the moment with 4 option contracts.

I broke just about every trading rule I have by entering this one today. It is more of an instinctive trade. The stock is cheap compared to recent highs, and is looking oversold. Should have waited for a bounce though.


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## AnalysisParalysis (30 May 2007)

Worked out well. Got my price, made a nice little profit in just a few days. 
Turned into a decent looking trade, complete with a doji-reversal.


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## Kieran (12 June 2007)

WDC has just announced a pro-rata entitlement offer, 2 shares @ $19.50 for every 23 shares held. Record Date is 18th June 7:00pm (next monday).

Seems like a reasonable offer, $1.40 discount under todays close. That said, I'll be offered the princely sum of 3 new shares


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## P.O.D (12 July 2007)

Does anyone know why WDC are in a trading halt today?  I heard a rumour that they might be raising more capital? Can anyone confirm?


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## YELNATS (12 July 2007)

Kieran said:


> WDC has just announced a pro-rata entitlement offer, 2 shares @ $19.50 for every 23 shares held. Record Date is 18th June 7:00pm (next monday).
> 
> Seems like a reasonable offer, $1.40 discount under todays close. That said, I'll be offered the princely sum of 3 new shares




At recent prices and particularly at the last selling price of $19.99 the offer wasn't all that flash, less than a 50c discount (ie. only around 2.5%) to market price. For this reason, I didn't subscribe.



P.O.D said:


> Does anyone why WDC are in a trading halt today?  I heard a rumour that might be raising more capital? Can anyone confirm?




No idea, maybe they have found an alternative means of raising capital, if the previous offer wasn't all that popular. regards YN


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## 56gsa (12 July 2007)

they're doing the book build for the offer entitlement - its in the asx announcement - likely to be back on the boards tomorrow...


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## 56gsa (13 July 2007)

Yelnats...  seems you were on the right track

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/property-malaise-hits-westfield/2007/07/12/1183833690922.html


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## rocker (19 July 2007)

Anyone have any idea on the p/e ratio for WDC. Fin review has 6 while on
Commsuck website it's 23. Any reason for the huge difference?


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## questionall_42 (19 July 2007)

rocker said:


> Anyone have any idea on the p/e ratio for WDC. Fin review has 6 while on
> Commsuck website it's 23. Any reason for the huge difference?




WDC has traditionally traded on fairly high PEs; and considering market average is around 15 ish, WDC's PE for 2007 would be 23 and not 6.  And it is 23 on etrade as well.


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## rocker (19 July 2007)

Thanks for the reply questionall 42. Just don't know why the Fin and the local
paper would have the p/e at 6


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## YELNATS (20 July 2007)

56gsa said:


> Yelnats...  seems you were on the right track
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/property-malaise-hits-westfield/2007/07/12/1183833690922.html




Yes, and today WDC is trading at $19.39. Also their offer excluded rights to the next dividend, so all in all a good one to avoid.

Similar to Stockland's (SGP) offer a few months ago for extra shares at $8.75. Today SGP is at $8.10. 

The moral is: Big retailers seldom give things away. Regards YN


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## Sean K (3 June 2008)

I owned this a few years ago and bailed during one on the normal corrections under panic, only to watch it fly away in short time (Jul 06 to Feb 07).  

Been watching with interest since. 

Was what I thought to be a very good long term mum and dad stock. Good management, good growth, low pe, good dividends. _Was _in the right sector. 

How some of the mighty have fallen. 

I wonder how much these guys are fundamentally effected by the finance and real estate market, and will be when people stop racing off to the mall to buy a new plasma. (sorry havent even read their last results). Obviously funding is harder to get, but I don't think they're geared that high. And they are commercial not residential. Can they keep raising rents at the markets when the shops are failing to grow revenue because of the plasma issue? Maybe they can. Is the population still growing enough that there will be a requirement for more and more shopping centres? Maybe Wesfields China will be a big hit? 

Been punished whatever the case. 

On my list of long term blue chips, if ever we find an escape from the finance crisis. 

Maybe for 2012....


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## Sean K (12 July 2008)

kennas said:


> I owned this a few years ago and bailed during one on the normal corrections under panic, only to watch it fly away in short time (Jul 06 to Feb 07).
> 
> Been watching with interest since.
> 
> ...



Crikey!! Under $15. Disaster for long term buy and hopers. Mums and dads are looking poorer and poorer by the day. It's pe must be looking good for a yield, but golly jeepers!  Maybe a takeover will come from Fanny Mae or Northern Rock, or something else on the move?


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## Kieran (22 October 2008)

Westfield dropped 9.14% today - anyone have any reason why?

I'm putting a buy in at $15.10 and hope to sell at around $17.40 for a 10% return after brokerage. If I need to hold long term I will - I already own a small ~$2k parcel of Westfield and have no doubts with Frank Lowy's leadership. Decent dividend doesn't hurt either!


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## benn (20 November 2008)

Just on westfield if someone could please confirm,

the Year end 2008 tax statement is the summary of the June 2007 distribution (paid Aug07) and the December 2007 distribution (paid Feb08).


My understanding is that this method of treating trust income is different to the 'usual' way. 

For my other trust income such as centro and transurban, you recognise the income in the year it is declared, not paid and in the accounts you have a DR Receivable for that tust income which you have put on your tax return but wont receive till after the year closes off.

Can someone confirm this is the case please for westfield? I think i am right tho.


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## drsmith (20 November 2008)

Westfield is different to the others as per it's statement.

One difference between Westfield and some other trusts/stapled security groups is that it has a December year end although I'm not sure if this is a factor in the above.


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## benn (20 November 2008)

thanks Dr.  it prob does have something to do with a different year end. 

i am taking over the running of my folks' SMSF accounts and wanted to clear it up. i thought it may have been an omission from the prior accountant who may have been confused as the DRP got suspended for a while back then

thanks


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## AS414 (4 December 2008)

A cool post exploring the new London centre:

http://fashionbarn.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/retail-thought-westfield/


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## drsmith (12 December 2008)

Over the past week Deutsche Bank has exercised about 16 million options pumping about $220 million into Westfield.


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## just a thought (16 December 2008)

The cloud hanging over  Centro had dipressed all property trusts as it has the potential to wipe off a large chunk of property value. If Centro gets their extention tomorrow, Westfield will also fly up.What you think?


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## drsmith (16 December 2008)

As a holder of Westfield I'm happy to see Centro get a debt extension and possible recapitalisation in the new year.

Whether or not it results in Centro being able to dispose of it's properties at better than bank fire sale prices remains to be seen. At least it still has a chance but much will depend on the depth and length of the economic downturn.


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## tigerboi (26 January 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*

westfield has stopped construction on the $700m bradford development...the reason for the sneaky slide...got a please explain as well.

looks like this will get a pounding tomorrow along with wes...tb


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## drsmith (3 February 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*

The 50% underwriting of the DRP has been abandoned in favour of a direct shake of the tin.

I wouldn't be suprised if they raise more than the $2.9b underwritten amount. No hint of participation for non institutional shareholders as part of today's announcement (such as a SSP) but that may come once the institutional raising is settled.


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## tigerboi (3 February 2009)

*Re: WDC-tb tipped $12.10-$10.50*



tigerboi said:


> westfield has stopped construction on the $700m bradford development...the reason for the sneaky slide...got a please explain as well.
> 
> looks like this will get a pounding tomorrow along with wes...tb




pretty happy with myself as i tipped a 13% rip down in only 3 trading days(1st to 4th feb)  over at T$...$12.10-$10.50,bang on target the placement price


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## sheggie (9 February 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*

Westfield has stopped construction on the $700m bradford development...the reason for the sneaky slide...got a please explain as well. Looks like this will get a pounding tomorrow along with wes...tb[/QUOTE]

This stock has been a cornerstone of my portfolio but now I'm getting cold feet. 
Profit warnings, capital raisings....
Has this construction at Bradford really stopped? I can't find out. 
I'm also concerned about the decline in discretionary shopping which these big malls rely on for their profits. Personally, I used to shop a lot more than I do at the moment. Now I think twice about it.
Does anyone else feel the same?


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## So_Cynical (9 March 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*



sheggie said:


> I'm also concerned about the decline in discretionary shopping which these big malls rely on for their profits. Personally, I used to shop a lot more than I do at the moment. Now I think twice about it. Does anyone else feel the same?




Good parking is easy to get now at any Westfield...no more having to park 
in the sun on the top deck...the car parks are half empty.

Clearly the Dividend cant hold with the SP at under $9 today...on the up 
side there's not many empty shops at there centers...yet.

The whole property sector is really getting hammered now, cant help but 
think there's a great opportunity in the making. :luigi:


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## Sean K (10 March 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*



So_Cynical said:


> The whole property sector is really getting hammered now, cant help but think there's a great opportunity in the making. :luigi:



Yeah, will be at some stage you'd think. Like many possibly overdone sections. Just a matter of what is overdone, or rightly destroyed.


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## Real1ty (25 April 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*



So_Cynical said:


> The whole property sector is really getting hammered now, cant help but
> think there's a great opportunity in the making. :luigi:




I agree with you and entered the stock for the first time yesterday.

I can see them buying some distressed sales in the near term and with their balance sheet strength they should be able to get debt rather than going to the market for the money which imo will be a positive.


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## So_Cynical (25 April 2009)

*Re: WDC-halted bradford $700m project*



Real1ty said:


> I agree with you and entered the stock for the first time yesterday.




My post that u quoted was dated 9th-March-2009...pretty much the March 
Bottom, the whole property sector was about 10 >12% lower than it is now.

Have noticed the sector turning down again over the last 7 or 8 days...good 
luck with your WDC holding.


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## Prem (9 May 2009)

Does any one know why wdc suddenly on the 7th of may lost 4 percent %

Is it to do with xpj

thanks in advance !

Prem


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## CapnBirdseye (9 May 2009)

From what I know WDC have scaled back their development side to about 2 projects.  I know that they are looking for some acquisitions and partial stakes in existing developements.

There is a lot pending, but its all on hold atm.


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## zebop (1 June 2009)

I notice Westfield shares went up today to around $11.38. I also noticed some very big buys. Anyone know why?


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## Miner (23 June 2009)

Is any one following WDC ?

What is the ST forecast for charts ?

Is Frank Lowey still interested to provide shareholders return as he has cut off or frozen his salary and so for his snr executives and spending too much time on games 

Probably it is the time for him to pass the baton for people who has time to look after business and he can be greatest philanthropist . Not every one is Queen not ready to pass the thorne until drop dead


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## Boggo (24 June 2009)

It came up as a sell earlier this month and that's playing out at the moment.
I am not in any position and I am certainly not qualified to say what it will do but if it follows the rules there is a possibility of more downside to go.
.


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## Miner (24 June 2009)

Boggo said:


> It came up as a sell earlier this month and that's playing out at the moment.
> I am not in any position and I am certainly not qualified to say what it will do but if it follows the rules there is a possibility of more downside to go.
> .




Thanks Boggo
It will be very interesting to see today what happens to WDC as I am looking forward to buy at decline


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## ROE (27 June 2009)

WDC would be my best pick of all property trust 
Decent balance sheet, good cash flow, nice payout
exceptional mall locations  when i like something i buy it  at $10.50


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## ultimacuraga (30 July 2009)

*WDC - Dividends?*

WDC usually have their dividends middle of February and August. I just thought middle of August is coming in just under three weeks and there hasn't any prior announcement or an ex-date set.

What are the chances they're not having dividends next month? Just wondering. I would imagine they'd have two dividends twice a year.

Thanks!


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## dan-o (31 July 2009)

Charlie Aitken is saying this is the one on the ASX 50 to go for... he is pretty bullish often though...

Anyone got any thoughts as to how likely it is they will issue fresh equity to further strengthen balance sheet?

The way these things have been working lately imm thinking its worth geting as small parcel of shares in good companies likely to issue equity and then make a tidy profit!


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## asel (7 August 2009)

I like Charlie Aitken's views.

Whether or not a company undergoes a capital raising is a process of gambling/speculation and anything is possible. I may not have extensive knowledge of the company but I know at least that Westfield has a low gearing ratio (<40%?), theoretically lessening the chance of such an event. You however have to be in it to win it.

I am also aware that the estimated distribution for this half is 47c with an ex-date of Tuesday 11th August.


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## drsmith (11 August 2009)

*Re: WDC - Dividends?*



ultimacuraga said:


> WDC usually have their dividends middle of February and August. I just thought middle of August is coming in just under three weeks and there hasn't any prior announcement or an ex-date set.
> 
> What are the chances they're not having dividends next month? Just wondering. I would imagine they'd have two dividends twice a year.
> 
> Thanks!



Westfield announces it's dividends in early Aug/Feb a few weeks prior to profit announcements at the end of Aug/Feb each year.

This is a throwback to the days when Westfield Trust and Westfield America trust were seperate entities from Westfield Holdings. The two trusts then used to announce their distributions/profits early in Aug/Feb each year and pay at the end of the above months as is the case now.

As for capital management it will be interesting to see what the Lowy's do. One thought that comes to my mind is a large capital raising or rights issue (RIO style) to build a warchest for aquisitions.

On the other hand though what if they take a dim view on the US's long term economic prospects and retail there inparticular. They have in the past demonstrated a willingness to sell when they consider appropriate.


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## supermatt (14 August 2009)

WDC has been extremely fustrating these last few days. All ords and 200 have been going fantastic yet westfield has been in free fall  grrrrrrrrrr
the dividend is about the only thing worth hanging onto here. Hopefully it turns a corner soon and some positivity comes in. Im not sure when this down move will end but surely it has to stop at 11.65 ish as good support is there.


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## Tysonboss1 (14 August 2009)

supermatt said:


> WDC has been extremely fustrating these last few days. All ords and 200 have been going fantastic yet westfield has been in free fall  grrrrrrrrrr
> the dividend is about the only thing worth hanging onto here. Hopefully it turns a corner soon and some positivity comes in. Im not sure when this down move will end but surely it has to stop at 11.65 ish as good support is there.




I Hope they keep falling.

Why would you want them to go up, My average buy price is $11.79, But if I saw them at $9 I would be cheering. The lower you can buy them for the better the dividend.

Unless your already sitting on a share portfolio of $1m or more why would you want shares to increase in price.

If your young and in the accumulation phase, then low prices is what you want.

I think it is frustrating putting $10,000 into a company and planning on building up a decent position over a few months only to have it double in value before you get a decent holding.

Bring back the bad old days of 6 months ago.


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## Kieran (20 September 2009)

Tysonboss1 said:


> The lower you can buy them for the better the dividend.
> ......
> If your young and in the accumulation phase, then low prices is what you want.
> ......
> I think it is frustrating putting $10,000 into a company and planning on building up a decent position over a few months only to have it double in value before you get a decent holding.




That's an exceptionally interesting view! I'm also 'young and in the accumulation phase' so I agree with what you're saying. I initially got into WDC at about $21 but my average is below $15 thanks to a purchase or two on market, DRP issues and rights issues.

With long term investment in mind, the only time you'd want the share price to be high is when you want to sell. For me that should be many many years away.


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## Tysonboss1 (2 February 2010)

WDC has suspended their DRP, Woo Hoo , this along with dividends being cut back to 60% of free cash flow as announced last year should see some good balance sheet strentgh building.

Now lets get a longterm share buy back plan started.


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## So_Cynical (2 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> WDC has suspended their DRP, Woo Hoo , this along with dividends being cut back to 60% of free cash flow as announced last year should see some good balance sheet strentgh building.
> 
> Now lets get a long term share buy back plan started.




That's gota be a positive for the SP...i don't hold Westfield but have exposure to it via my holding in the SLF Fund....i reckon there's still good value in the property sector.


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## nulla nulla (3 February 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> That's gota be a positive for the SP...i don't hold Westfield but have exposure to it via my holding in the SLF Fund....i reckon there's still good value in the property sector.




Most of them (REIT's) are trading at significant discounts to net tangible assets. However their yields have all been severely diluted over the last year.


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## Tysonboss1 (3 February 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> That's gota be a positive for the SP...i don't hold Westfield but have exposure to it via my holding in the SLF Fund....i reckon there's still good value in the property sector.




Their share price is showing some real strengh, most of this would just be due to the 47c dividend announcement, So I think there will be some weakness once they hit ex dividend date.

At the moment WDC is my largest holding, as always I am not banking a quick return, But I think WDC will deliver great returns as their share price gradually returns to a level that better reflects their value combined with the growth as they complete their development pipeline projects and retain cashflow to finance the growth and reduce debt.


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## GillamLaw (6 February 2010)

We thought you may be interested in this litigation against Westfield:

Grieving woman with PTSD requests unpaid leave, instead put in psych lock-down by employer Westfield Holdings 

LOS ANGELES-Kay Morris-Robertson, a British national and former executive with Westfield Holdings, began to suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) after her husband died suddenly of a heart attack right in front of her, as they were sailing off the coast of Southern California.  She was in an executive position in Los Angeles at Westfield Holdings, part of the Westfield Group (ASX:WDC), known as the $62 billion operator of 119 shopping centers in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States.  As a result of her experience, she asked her supervisor for unpaid leave.  He gave her more work instead.

When Morris Robertson wrote a despairing email about her feelings, her supervisor called the police and provided them with false information that led to her being taken away in handcuffs and held against her will in a psychological detention unit.

That's just part of the shocking story outlined in a lawsuit filed on Morris-Robertson's behalf by The Gillam Law Firm.

Among other allegations, the complaint charges that despite notifying her Westfield supervisor that she had been diagnosed with PTSD in November 2008, Morris-Robertson was never informed of her rights under the Family Medical Leave Act or the California Family Rights Act.  When she asked for unpaid leave to attend therapy sessions in order to cope with her disability, she was threatened with termination by her Westfield supervisor.  Her first visit to a PTSD therapist which she had located on her own was prevented when Westfield supervisors interceded and had her detained by police, even though she was not on their premises and had taken the day off to seek medical treatment.  She was placed in a psychological detention unit against her will and held for several days with no opportunity to notify her family of her whereabouts, exacerbating her PTSD condition.

Morris-Robertson's complaint lists a litany of alleged charges against her Westfield employers, including Failure to Accommodate Disability; Failure to Engage in Interactive Process; Disability Discrimination; Violation of California Family Rights Act; Retaliation in Violation of California Family Rights Act; Wrongful Constructive Termination in Violation of Public Policy; Harassment; Negligence; False Imprisonment; Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress; Invasion of Privacy; Internationally Giving False Information; and Gender Discrimination. 

If you do a Google search you will find more information on this complaint.


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## OK2 (10 February 2010)

Has anyone compared WSF to WDC as their historical charts are vastly different, any explanations would be greatly appreciated.


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## drsmith (10 February 2010)

OK2 said:


> Has anyone compared WSF to WDC as their historical charts are vastly different, any explanations would be greatly appreciated.



Not strictly comparable as WSF was only the property development part of the business.

All other things being equal I would suspect that WSF would show a higher volatility and a greater average capital growth than WDC as the latter includes the malls from the merger of WSF with WFT and WFA.


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## nulla nulla (10 February 2010)

GillamLaw said:


> We thought you may be interested in this litigation against Westfield:
> 
> Grieving woman with PTSD requests unpaid leave, instead put in psych lock-down by employer Westfield Holdings
> 
> ...




I personally think this post is pathetic. You represent yourself an employee or pinciple of the law firm in the US, Gillam Law Firm. You are posting information in respect of a matter that you would have us believe is presently before the courts in a subjective rather than objective manner, trying to discredit the Corporation WDC, while the matter is still subjudice. 

You are trying to discredit the corporation when it has not been established before the court whether in fact any of your allegations have substance. It is yet to be proven that the corporation was even aware of the allegations of your client let alone condoned the actions of the alleged supervisor and has a case to answer. 

Personally I think you should pull your head in and wait until there is an outcome of the alleged court case.


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## GillamLaw (12 February 2010)

I respect your perspective, but invite Aussie Stock Forum members to visit our blog and judge for themselves.  We were very transparent about who we are, but the case against Westfield IS a matter of public record and wasn't previously reported here.  It would seem that discussion of any public company should include the bad with the good.


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## nulla nulla (12 February 2010)

GillamLaw said:


> I respect your perspective, but invite Aussie Stock Forum members to visit our blog and judge for themselves.  We were very transparent about who we are, but the case against Westfield IS a matter of public record and wasn't previously reported here.  It would seem that discussion of any public company should include the bad with the good.




It is not the role of forum members to pass judgement on WDC in respect of a matter you allege is before the courts. It is the role of the court.

In the event the matter is before the courts and a ruling is handed down against wdc, then it would be appropriate that the matter be raised in a forum for public awareness.

In my opinion your posting of this information on the web is little more than a scurrilous attempt to discredit wdc ahead of any alleged hearing and in my opinion borders on blackmail.


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## UMike (12 February 2010)

It's also a case that makes me think the verdict should be to harden the phark up.

I am sure opportunistic  litigations like this happen all the time in the states.


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## kermit345 (12 February 2010)

If this actually affected the company in any way wouldn't there be a company announcement on the issue. Unless i've missed it I haven't seen one which would mean this is unlikely to effect the company materially.

Which would suggest (as someone else has said) your simply trying to discredit the company rather then offer public insight that is likely to effect our investment view of westfield. If you did want to make us aware of this you would have been better served not posting under the GillamLaw name as it just looks like your posting bias information to tug at our heart strings.


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## nulla nulla (12 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> If this actually affected the company in any way wouldn't there be a company announcement on the issue. Unless i've missed it I haven't seen one which would mean this is unlikely to effect the company materially.
> 
> Which would suggest (as someone else has said) your simply trying to discredit the company rather then offer public insight that is likely to effect our investment view of westfield. If you did want to make us aware of this you would have been better served not posting under the GillamLaw name as it just looks like your posting bias information to tug at our heart strings.




Which, in my opinion, by extension, could reasonably be interpreted as meaning the party raising this as yet unsubstantiated allegation is a tugger, tosser, wanker, however you call it.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 February 2010)

GillamLaw said:


> We thought you may be interested in this litigation against Westfield:
> 
> Grieving woman with PTSD requests unpaid leave, instead put in psych lock-down by employer Westfield Holdings
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info mate, where would all the funnymentalists be without inside information like this.

A site for *you* to click on mate.

http://www.the-injury-lawyer-directory.com/ridiculous_lawsuits.html

California is the home of ridiculous litigation. Now I do not know whether yours is ridiculous, but the fact that you have bothered to post it on an Australian Stock Forum, makes me kind of suspicious.

This unfortunate lady lost her husband, saw him die, so have millions over the last 50 to 100,000 years. Unfortunately or fortunately they did not work for Westfield or have you as a lawyer.

It would be interesting to hear Westfield's take on what happened, she sounds as if she was very distressed and maybe needed some help. 

And no, I'm not really interested, so why don't you bugger off and chase an Ambulance or two and let us get on with discussing stocks you miserable bloody lawyer.

gg


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## Tysonboss1 (12 February 2010)

I also think that this law suit rubbish sounds like a dash for cash, But even if she did have a win in court it would not touch westfield in terms of earnings, So would not affect my investment choices.


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## kermit345 (15 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> Which, in my opinion, by extension, could reasonably be interpreted as meaning the party raising this as yet unsubstantiated allegation is a tugger, tosser, wanker, however you call it.




All 3 of those descriptions seem adequate. On a serious note, what are people's actual thoughts / outlooks on Westfield.

Given their australian portfolio is strong with minimal vacancies, as the US slowly recovers do you see their share price heading north in line with a US recovery?


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## nulla nulla (15 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> All 3 of those descriptions seem adequate. On a serious note, what are people's actual thoughts / outlooks on Westfield.
> 
> Given their australian portfolio is strong with minimal vacancies, as the US slowly recovers do you see their share price heading north in line with a US recovery?




When evidence of an increase in consumer spending in the US starts to filter through along with improvement in their housing and joblees numbers, i expect wdc to go back to $14+. Problem is I expect there will be a lot of side ways ups and downs before the ups get the upper hand.


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## kermit345 (15 February 2010)

Yes I agree, although thats more of a market-wide trend as well. Hopefully the current situation in europe with greece's high debt which may cause problems for the euro doesn't hurt westfields european assets. Although I doubt it would as westfield generally holds high quality assets with long-term contracts and minimal vaccancies.

I just think that for anyone looking for buy and hold style stocks, westfield ticks  most of the boxes. To myself it seems to be a good core stock to cover the property sector with which you can build around with your speccies.


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## nulla nulla (16 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> Yes I agree, although thats more of a market-wide trend as well. Hopefully the current situation in europe with greece's high debt which may cause problems for the euro doesn't hurt westfields european assets. Although I doubt it would as westfield generally holds high quality assets with long-term contracts and minimal vaccancies.
> 
> I just think that for anyone looking for buy and hold style stocks, westfield ticks  most of the boxes. To myself it seems to be a good core stock to cover the property sector with which you can build around with your speccies.




If it falls much lower, in my opinion, it will become an accumulate and hold proposition. With an annual dividend of $1.04 representing a return of between 8.5% to 9.0% on the current share price, it is providing a better rate of return than bank interest. Anyone buying in now (looking for capital growth and an increase in dividends as the global economies recover in the next few years) could literaly park their money and sit back and watch it grow.
The only issue I see is that it fell yesterday, possibly on wdc's exposure to Europe and may test lower before it stabilises.


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## gooner (16 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> If it falls much lower, in my opinion, it will become an accumulate and hold proposition. With an annual dividend of $1.04 representing a return of between 8.5% to 9.0% on the current share price, it is providing a better rate of return than bank interest. Anyone buying in now (looking for capital growth and an increase in dividends as the global economies recover in the next few years) could literaly park their money and sit back and watch it grow.
> The only issue I see is that it fell yesterday, possibly on wdc's exposure to Europe and may test lower before it stabilises.




Current full year dividend is 94c - are you assuming a big increase next year to $1.04?  

Mind you, I always gross up for franking, so grossed up is $1.34 which is 11.2% on the current share price.  Which is very nice.....

I hold


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## kermit345 (16 February 2010)

I'm assuming he meant to put 94c rather then $1.04.

Either way, whether you gross up for franking or use the nominal amount, it is still a high yeidl in a respectable long-term company whom has performed reasonably well in the past and has good management.

I know history is history and doesn't reflect the future, but with a core parcel of assets that have performed well through thick and thin, you have to take historical performance into consideration.

I hold westfield, was disapointed with suspension of DRP as I liked to think of it as compounding interest (which is great considering the high yield of the company). Although the upside is that my holding doesn't get diluted anymore so greater SP growth may occur. Thats what i'm hopeful of anyway.


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## nawshus (16 February 2010)

is wdc going to pay dividends this month? on comsec it says pay date 26 Feb, 10 with 0.00cents .


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## drsmith (16 February 2010)

Westfield has announced an estomated distribution of $0.47 payable at the end of Feb. The stock is now trading ex-distribution so anyone who buys now will not get it.

Future distributions will be lower given a change in payout ratio from 100% of operating income + associated hedging to around 70-75%. Expect future half yearly distributions of around $0.35.


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## nulla nulla (17 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> I'm assuming he meant to put 94c rather then $1.04.
> 
> Either way, whether you gross up for franking or use the nominal amount, it is still a high yeidl in a respectable long-term company whom has performed reasonably well in the past and has good management.
> 
> ...




Quite right. I added an extra 10c in there unintentionaly. Dividend should be $0.47 representing an annual return of $0.94. Still a good rate of return with the franking component. However as mentioned above, future distributions will be lower given a change in payout ratio from 100% of operating income + associated hedging to around 70-75%. Future distributions will be slightly lower, however I would expect them to increase as wdc benefits from a recovery in global economies.


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## kermit345 (17 February 2010)

Although even once the distributions reduce due to the lower payout ratio, at least the capital will then be put towards either reducing debt or growth operations.

Either way its going to improve the balance sheet of the company and outcome for holders of WDC (as long as they use the retained cash wisely). The next 1-3 years could be important for WDC I feel, with hopefully a sustained US recovery, and investing of the new retained cash which isn't felt in the SP overnight but will eventually be beneficial to shareholders.


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## Tysonboss1 (17 February 2010)

I support the lower payout ratio of 75% of cash flow.

It should see higher dividends become available in the future, while also lowering debt related risk.

By retaining 25% of cashflow they will have an extra $500M per year to fund the development pipline, Westfields has a history of getting 12%-15%pa return on capital invested into developments / redevelopments so the retained income will translate into higher cashflow in future years meaning larger dividends.


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## nulla nulla (17 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> I support the lower payout ratio of 75% of cash flow.
> 
> It should see higher dividends become available in the future, while also lowering debt related risk.
> 
> By retaining 25% of cashflow they will have an extra $500M per year to fund the development pipline, Westfields has a history of getting 12%-15%pa return on capital invested into developments / redevelopments so the retained income will translate into higher cashflow in future years meaning larger dividends.




Hopefully they will also use the retained earnings to reduce the gearing levels of debt to sub 30% like some of the Australian based reit's.


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## Tysonboss1 (17 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> Hopefully they will also use the retained earnings to reduce the gearing levels of debt to sub 30% like some of the Australian based reit's.




their debt is already at somthing like 35% LVR,

Even though they have used 100% finance on to fund their properties there are several factors than make them give them low LVR.


the first is time, inflation has taken really lowered their lvrs over time, inflation has increased the cashflow and valuation of all the properties that were built in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's .
they develop their properties themselves so the loan is quite small compared to the final value and cash flow of the property
they often sell off part of the property to institutional investor which lowers debt, eg. they borrow and spend $300M on land and construction costs and end up with a property that may be worth $500M they then sell a 50% share to some institution for $250M lowering the debt on that deal to $50M


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## drsmith (17 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> Westfield has announced an estomated distribution of $0.47 payable at the end of Feb. The stock is now trading ex-distribution so anyone who buys now will not get it.
> 
> Future distributions will be lower given a change in payout ratio from 100% of operating income + associated hedging to around 70-75%. Expect future half yearly distributions of around $0.35.



If a $0.64 distribution over the next 12 months represents 70-75% of operating income + associated hedging, then the latter is anticipated by the directors to be in the range of $0.91 to $0.85 per stapled security. That compares to $0.94 for the past 12 months.

Perhaps one factor behind the share price reaction to the result.


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## Tysonboss1 (18 February 2010)

WDC is showing some weakness today, I can't really see any reason why they are under such selling pressure, I actually thought that the report was pretty good.

The only thing that I can think of is that the divdend payout ratio change has caused a bit of uncertainty.


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## kermit345 (18 February 2010)

Could be due to the mentality of un-informed investors simply seeing a drop in dividend and thinking that means the company is doing worse rather then understanding its due to a lowering of the payout ratio.

I see it as a positive as well, shows management are taking pro-active steps to continue growth and its investment pipeline. They are under some slight pressure at the moment due to exchange rates and weakness in the US, however as i've mentioned previously as a long term play I have confidence in their ability to provide meaningful growth and income going forward.

Sell downs of this natue just provides an opportunity to obtain a holding at a lower price in a quality company.


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## Julia (18 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> Could be due to the mentality of un-informed investors simply seeing a drop in dividend and thinking that means the company is doing worse rather then understanding its due to a lowering of the payout ratio.
> 
> I see it as a positive as well, shows management are taking pro-active steps to continue growth and its investment pipeline. They are under some slight pressure at the moment due to exchange rates and weakness in the US, however as i've mentioned previously as a long term play I have confidence in their ability to provide meaningful growth and income going forward.
> 
> Sell downs of this natue just provides an opportunity to obtain a holding at a lower price in a quality company.



"The mentality of uninformed investors", huh?
I wouldn't be owning this in the first place, despite it being so frequently put into a basic core p/f.
This always seems to be on the basis of "be patient, and the quality of the company will bring its eventual rewards".

Well, in the meantime, it's been trading sideways for some time, didn't enjoy the sharp rally from March 09 that most other stocks experienced, and has now been trading below the MA and in a fairly clear downtrend for the last week.


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## kermit345 (18 February 2010)

What I mean is, people who don't actually investigate the stock and simply look at a brief slideshow of the company results and see the dividend has dropped considerably since the last payout get paniced and sell out. Without fully understanding why the dividend has dropped and what the actual consequences of dropping the dividend are (i.e. positive outcome or negative outcome).

Its the same with any bad news, it stings to start off with and people panic, but once some time passes and people realise the news isn't quite so bad, the euphoria of the stock settles back in.

I own WDC and agree, there have been better opportunities over the past 12 months. However it is also nice to have some stocks in your portfolio that are steady with considerably lower risk then the boom or bust stocks.


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## Miner (18 February 2010)

I am sharing Bell Potter's report on WDC published today in their website.


As has been posted in several threads, I do read Bell's report, interprete myself and try to understand what are they saying in between the lines and  8 out of 10 I follow opposite direction of Bell Potter's recommendation. 

DNH 

As always please do your own research and make decision fitting to your own strategies.


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## So_Cynical (18 February 2010)

Julia said:


> it's been trading sideways for some time, didn't enjoy the sharp rally from March 09 that most other stocks experienced, and has now been trading below the MA and in a fairly clear downtrend for the last week.




Hey Julia...WDC went from 8.86 in March to 14.33 in Sept, sure its not as spectacular as some stocks rose in that period, but still a 62% rise in 7 months is hardly a disaster for a property company.

And what's wrong with a share price going sideways :dunno: all i see are the buy and sell levels screaming at me saying hey come take an easy 10% and or get yourself an easy free carry position in a very low risk high reward stock.
~


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## Tysonboss1 (18 February 2010)

Julia said:


> This always seems to be on the basis of "be patient, and the quality of the company will bring its eventual rewards".




WDC ticks all the boxes as far as I am concerned, even more so now that the dividend pay out has been reduced, and dividend reinvestment has been canned.


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## Julia (18 February 2010)

Well, whatever makes you happy, fellas.

We all have different approaches and criteria for what constitutes a good stock.

WDC wouldn't make the cut for me on the basis of insufficient capital appreciation.  If I don't want to grow my capital, I'd sooner leave the money in the bank.

It's still a very reasonable dividend, though, if that's what you're looking for.


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## Tysonboss1 (19 February 2010)

Julia said:


> WDC wouldn't make the cut for me on the basis of insufficient capital appreciation.  If I don't want to grow my capital, I'd sooner leave the money in the bank.




Well WDC closed today at $11.65, I think there would be ample capital growth over the next 12months, 5years and 10 years that when added to the dividend will create a great longterm investment.

How about you put forward your number one stock pick and we will campare the two in 12 months, just for fun 

as far as capital growth is concerned wdc has historically been a stock market super star, I think $1000 invested in westfield holdings when it listed would be worth somthing like $88 million today, I am not saying that will be repeated but the is potential for growth there.

I am buying into WDC as a longterm holding that produces a steady income stream that is naturally hedged against inflation and will grow as the company completes it's development and redevelopment pipeline.

After all it is a property investment so I am not expecting 40%pa returns, but 10%+ should be achieveable, atleast from it's current low base.


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## nulla nulla (19 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Well WDC closed today at $11.65, I think there would be ample capital growth over the next 12months, 5years and 10 years that when added to the dividend will create a great longterm investment.
> 
> How about you put forward your number one stock pick and we will campare the two in 12 months, just for fun
> 
> ...




I can't comment on the long term value garnered by anyone investing in Westfields Initial Public Offering. I can comment though on the shares I held in Westfield America (wfa) that rolled into Westfields Stapled shares (wdc). The purchase costs of my wfa equated to $13.50 per wdc and I held them all the way up to the dizzy heights of $21.00+ and all the way back down to $10:30 (they went down under $9.00 after I bit the bullet).  
Even though I had received significant returns in the interim from steady dividends, the lesson learnt was to take the profits on capital gains when the share price is on the rise.
Holding for the "long term" simply means you will ride the rollercoaster up when they go up and will ride the roller coaster down when they go down.


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## kermit345 (19 February 2010)

That also depends quite a bit on your strategy as well though nulla nulla as to when you'd like to get out of a stock. I don't think those of us that like WDC think of it as a capital gainer that will dramatically improve the growth of our portfolio. We're looking at it from a core position to add exposure to the property sector with minimal risk. If it does *only* provide capital growth of say 7% per annum and a yield of say 4% I would still be happy with that from a core holding perspective (still better then any term deposit).

The satellites you add around WDC is where you can attempt to make your significant capital gains, and if they don't go so well, you've still got WDC puttering along with its average results.

I can see where Julia is coming from and understand WDC is not going to produce massive results. However for long term investors you do need some core holdings that produce moderate results with smaller risk over a long period of time. I personally don't think I'd like the volatility involved with having all my holdings chasing large capital growth.


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## Tysonboss1 (19 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> . The purchase costs of my wfa equated to $13.50 per wdc and I held them all the way up to the dizzy heights of $21.00+ and all the way back down to $10:30
> 
> Even though I had received significant returns in the interim from steady dividends, the lesson learnt was to take the profits on capital gains when the share price is on the rise.
> 
> Holding for the "long term" simply means you will ride the rollercoaster up when they go up and will ride the roller coaster down when they go down.




That fall you mentioned was caused by the one of the biggest share market crashes in history. The price did not fall due to weakness of westfields asssets. (except for that $23 was probally over inflated in the first place caused by the worlds biggest bull market)

As you said you were earning a good yield through dividends based on your entry price so their is not need to sell just because the market gets a bit choppy.

I look at buying a business like buying a farm, If you bought a farm at $500 an acre and knew on average it would return about $80 and acre in cash flow per year, would you sell out just because the price had dropped to $200 an acre because your neighbors were panic selling. Probally not. 

So many people get caught up in a game of chasing short term results fom long term assets, it's a bit crazy really,


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## kermit345 (19 February 2010)

Basically agree with everything Tyson has said. When purchasing westfield its about obtaining a share in the company and underlying assets at a reasonable price. If the price you thought was reasonable then drops, that provides a cheaper entry point to the same quality company and assets you bought into previously. It should not trigger the mind-set of selling unless something has actually gone wrong with the underlying entity, rather then a market price that is set with a short term outlook by a portion of investors that buy/sell with their heart and not their head (i.e. follow the trend of everyone else and not understand the underlying entity is still just as strong as it was before).

Now obviously in westfields case, the assets are still strong but just not performing quite as well (i.e. vacancies in UK/US), so a lower share price is warranted. However the company is still producing reasonable returns (both on a company level and as dividends for a shareholder level) and also has a development pipeline in place to produce future growth and is not overrun with debt.

Just because the market is currently very volatile and has been acting on impulse news rather then long term outlooks, I don't think that warrants not being in a company because the market is selling it off. The underlying entity with your own research is what your investing in, not the short-term perception of the market (of course this is in regards to long term core holdings, if your chasing short term spec stocks obviously the market perceptions play a large role).

It all depends on your investment strategy, but if your looking at a large company like WDC when your aggresive spec investor then obviously your strategy is off point already anyway. As a long term core asset, i think the underlying company is undervalued and over the long term you'd expect that the market realises that (once these tougher times continue to subside and volatility to company announcements lowers).


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## drsmith (19 February 2010)

Westfield's management has had a very good track record over the long term. Not perfect by any means (who is ?) but that's something in it's favour.

Long term though it faces serious headwinds. Firstly, if the western economies in which it operates can reduce the real value of debt by inflation this will put new pressure on property capitalisation rates at some point as interest rates for deposits rise. If there is a second wave to the GFC then that's a much more serious problem.

Secondly there's the prospect of lower retail sales growth post GFC and the impact of that on the potential for development.

Its best days are most likely behind it.


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## Julia (19 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> I can't comment on the long term value garnered by anyone investing in Westfields Initial Public Offering. I can comment though on the shares I held in Westfield America (wfa) that rolled into Westfields Stapled shares (wdc). The purchase costs of my wfa equated to $13.50 per wdc and I held them all the way up to the dizzy heights of $21.00+ and all the way back down to $10:30 (they went down under $9.00 after I bit the bullet).
> Even though I had received significant returns in the interim from steady dividends, the lesson learnt was to take the profits on capital gains when the share price is on the rise.
> Holding for the "long term" simply means you will ride the rollercoaster up when they go up and will ride the roller coaster down when they go down.



I also had WDC when they converted to the stapled securities.  Sold in 06 at only a moderate profit.



kermit345 said:


> Just because the market is currently very volatile and has been acting on impulse news rather then long term outlooks, I don't think that warrants not being in a company because the market is selling it off. The underlying entity with your own research is what your investing in, not the short-term perception of the market (of course this is in regards to long term core holdings, if your chasing short term spec stocks obviously the market perceptions play a large role).



Kermit, good that you can discuss your views in such a reasonable way - it's appreciated.

We simply have a different investment philosophy.  You seem to like the idea of 'owning a bit of a business' over a long term and see making maximum profit as very secondary.

I just don't see it that way.  I want to see my capital growing.

You say "if you're chasing short term spec stocks.......":   I've indeed chased a few of these in my time, rarely with positive results so I don't do it any more.

But what I do do, is take advantage of uptrends in solid, well managed companies, selling in significant downturns.  e.g. sold my whole p/f in January 08 when the GFC was happening.

Maybe take a look at LEI, WOR, CPB, MND, WES charts for 2009 and compare with same for WDC.   Unless you have some passionate interest in shopping malls, I just don't know why you wouldn't prefer to own a stock which is going to give you a decent capital gain.



> It all depends on your investment strategy, but if your looking at a large company like WDC when your aggresive spec investor then obviously your strategy is off point already anyway. As a long term core asset, i think the underlying company is undervalued and over the long term you'd expect that the market realises that (once these tougher times continue to subside and volatility to company announcements lowers).



Again, it doesn't seem to me that I'm an 'aggressive spec investor' when I simply take advantage of a rising share price.  

So many people who take a purely fundamental approach focus on the company 'being undervalued'.  Sure, it might be, but given that it's market sentiment that moves the SP, isn't that something you accept and go with, rather than patiently waiting for the rest of the market to see the light on your undervalued company?

Again, it's interesting to have the discussion and I'm not being critical of your approach, it just rather puzzles me, given that I'm not arguing for some speccie miner where you could lose all your investment.


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## Tysonboss1 (19 February 2010)

Julia,

We just have a different opinion, 

you believe that westfields will not see an decent investment returns, I believe they will. 

time will tell.

Lei is the first stock in the list you mentioned, we will use that as your example. today it is trading at $38.33, lets look back in 12 months and compare lei and wdc share price growth including dividends.

LEI   - $38.33
WDC - $11.63


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## kermit345 (19 February 2010)

Same goes for you Julia, I appreciate the discussion, its good to have conflicting views with someone that can express their thoughts without being arrogant or one-minded.

I guess for my portfolio I'm trying to have a combination of many philosophy's, although this is rather difficult as i'm young and don't exactly have a portfolio of a large magnitude, although i've done considerably well since I started investing just 12 months ago (I work as a paraplanner / trainee Financial Planner - started this last Jan as well)

By holding WDC its more of a play that the property sector will improve and also my expectation that long-term America will gradually return to the malls hence filling up the vacancies WDC currently have in the US. I do currently hold WES and bought it at the very low last Feb so i've done quite well there (I think my purchase price was $14.94). I'm slowly moving to a more value investment approach with satellite speculative stocks to enhance my capital returns.

I'm also trying to have a diversified portfolio in terms of the sector the company operates in (currently i'm overwieght energy and materials = which im in the process of rectifying) which I guess contibutes to the reasoning behind my WDC holding. I definately understand there are potentially better opportunities out there, I just feel WDC gives me good exposure to the property sector, with reasonably steady income, solid management and reasonable growth enhanced by ongoing development.

My approach (and goal) is to have 5-10% invested in speculatives (for now this is fine as i'm young, may tone this down further down the line), no more then 10-15% invested in 1 stock (I still breach this rule now due to my low portfolio value and the growth some stocks have achieved) and no more then approx 20% in 1 sector (still rectifying this also). These are my goals currently but i'm still looking into it and tweaking it as I go.

I try to have company goals as well, so for instance its that WDC has reasonable growth and continued yeild over the next 1-3 years in line with what im hoping is a property and US economic recovery of some sorts bringing shoppers back to the consumer discretionary market. I continue to monitor this goal regularly and as situations change I adapt my goals. If they aren't met, thats when I look for new companies that can fulfil new goals etc. (hope that makes sense - also hope we aren't hi-jacking the thread, but I'm loving this discussion, its helping me conceptualise my investment strategies further)


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## drsmith (19 February 2010)

Two questions of interest with Westfield (and retail landlords in general) post GFC are,

1) To what extent are leases being maintained with incentives and how has this changed since the GFC ?
2) To what extent is the property group supporting tennents finance arrangments where banks are no longer willing to lend ?

The second question is a reference to a recent statement by Matthew Quinn of Stockland.


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## Julia (19 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Julia,
> 
> We just have a different opinion,
> 
> you believe that westfields will not see an decent investment returns, I believe they will.



No, don't attribute an opinion to me that I didn't express.  I have no idea what Westfield's returns will be in the future.  I'm only interested in what the SP has done over, say, the last five years, and especially that it has not enjoyed the sharp rally shown by many other stocks in 2009.  I simply believe my funds can be more profitably employed elsewhere.



> Lei is the first stock in the list you mentioned, we will use that as your example. today it is trading at $38.33, lets look back in 12 months and compare lei and wdc share price growth including dividends.
> 
> LEI   - $38.33
> WDC - $11.63



You are quite welcome to make whatever comparisons you wish.  I've made no predictions about what will happen with LEI and have no interest in some sort of competition.  I'm holding LEI at present but won't hesitate to sell it if I see a better opportunity elsewhere.  I don't have any attachment to any stock.




kermit345 said:


> I'm also trying to have a diversified portfolio in terms of the sector the company operates in (currently i'm overwieght energy and materials = which im in the process of rectifying) which I guess contibutes to the reasoning behind my WDC holding. I definately understand there are potentially better opportunities out there, I just feel WDC gives me good exposure to the property sector, with reasonably steady income, solid management and reasonable growth enhanced by ongoing development.



Fair enough, I understand your thinking.  I understand the widely accepted philosophy of being diversified across all sectors.  It's just not something I follow for the sake of it.  I'm happy to be overweight anywhere that's in favour at a given time.






drsmith said:


> Two questions of interest with Westfield (and retail landlords in general) post GFC are,
> 
> 1) To what extent are leases being maintained with incentives and how has this changed since the GFC ?
> 2) To what extent is the property group supporting tennents finance arrangments where banks are no longer willing to lend ?
> ...



What was the essence of Matthew Quinn's statement, drsmith?


----------



## Tysonboss1 (19 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> Two questions of interest with Westfield (and retail landlords in general) post GFC are,
> 
> 1) To what extent are leases being maintained with incentives and how has this changed since the GFC ?
> 2) To what extent is the property group supporting tennents finance arrangments where banks are no longer willing to lend ?
> ...




I am sure there would be some incentives in in some shopping centres in some areas, WDC cash profit was up so it can't have to much affect on them, I know westfields has been doing regional promotions in some areas to attract people into their centres. But even through out the GFC their cash profit has been very robust.


----------



## drsmith (19 February 2010)

_What was the essence of Matthew Quinn's statement ?_

See Business Spectator - Rise of the reluctant banker.


----------



## kermit345 (19 February 2010)

To my understanding although leases have dropped off in the US and UK, due to Australia's strength and stimulus it has meant that the Australian component of Westfield has basically filled the void left by poor US/UK leases.

Can't really relate to the 2nd question, haven't looked into it quite that much / read the article.



> Fair enough, I understand your thinking. I understand the widely accepted philosophy of being diversified across all sectors. It's just not something I follow for the sake of it. I'm happy to be overweight anywhere that's in favour at a given time.




Also when I purchased WDC close to the bottom I believe it was vastly undervalued, so i've still done ok out of it since then. I'm reasonably happy to be overweight sectors as well (like I am at the moment), however the figures I gave are more guidelines that I wouldn't like to over-step without good reason. Plus I should probably mention that while I do think WDC is a good core component, it is still more of a minor holding in my portfolio rather then a major holding, just for that added diversified exposure.


----------



## Julia (19 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> _What was the essence of Matthew Quinn's statement ?_
> 
> See Business Spectator - Rise of the reluctant banker.



Thanks.  So WGP, WDC or whoever ends up carrying the debt if the small business fails.
Another good reason to stay away from this sector atm.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (19 February 2010)

Julia said:


> Another good reason to stay away from this sector atm.




there is always a goog reason to stay away from just about every sector or company.

In the last 12 months I have made hundreds of thousands of dollars on companies people scoffed at.

In fact you and dr smith both made negative comments ( on different threads) in regards to my investment in Beppa. Luckily I didn't listen to you both because within weeks my 300,000 shares went from 8c to 37c.

this also happened with, MCW ( 20c to 65c ), AHE ( 55c to $2.30 ), VRL (87c to $2.25 ), APA ( $2.58 to $3.60 ), All of these stocks had people listing multiple reasons why they would fail, But I did my research was happy with them and made the investment.

I believe this will happen again with WDC, But as I said earlier I am not banking on a quick buck, I am happy to hold this one collect dividends and wait for steady cap gains.


----------



## gooner (19 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> there is always a goog reason to stay away from just about every sector or company.
> 
> In the last 12 months I have made hundreds of thousands of dollars on companies people scoffed at.
> 
> ...




Tyson

Big difference between MCW - 3 bagger and APA 1.5 bagger. What do you think WDC will do?

I hold


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

gooner said:


> Tyson
> 
> Big difference between MCW - 3 bagger and APA 1.5 bagger. What do you think WDC will do?
> 
> I hold




I am not expecting a 3 bagger in 12months thats for sure, But I expect it to do decently, and investors to book solid returns from dividends and capital growth over time.

I expect it to continue to collect rent and make healthy cash flows and to steadily work through their development pipeline and grow earnings. Earnings that have a natural hedge against inflation.

I have no idea where the share price is heading in the short term, I never do, and don't really give 2 hoots about it's share price short term. I don't judge an investment I make on friday by what it's share price is on the following tuesday. 

But I understand its core business and the market it operates in and am very comfortable that it's business is strong.

I think westfields will do ok through the bad times and fantastically in the good times.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> there is always a goog reason to stay away from just about every sector or company.
> 
> In the last 12 months I have made hundreds of thousands of dollars on companies people scoffed at.
> 
> ...



For someone who claims to have made hundreds of thousands of dollars you seem to have a very large chip on your shoulder.

If you wish to respond to the specific points I have made then by all means, be my guest.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Julia said:


> Thanks.  So WGP, WDC or whoever ends up carrying the debt if the small business fails.
> Another good reason to stay away from this sector atm.



It does increase overall sector risk and that is something any potential investor needs to be aware of.


----------



## kermit345 (20 February 2010)

Thats a big potential 'IF' the small business fails. I'm sure westfield, or stockland, or whomever the larger company is, they do their due dilegence on the company beforehand to make sure they will be profitable enough to not only pay their rent but also pay their loan owing to their larger company.

Yes if the small business defaults then the large company takes on the debt and risk and loses their money. But it also can provide the returns on any idle cash they may have had as well.

Its basically an investment that westfield or scotland are making in the small business to make sure that their core business of having their land rented continues to occur as well. This may have been a major issue 6-12 months ago when unemployment was on the major rise and consumers were spending less at the stores. But as unemployment is now reasonably steady / on the improve the only main thing that I can see hurting the small business within the malls is when the stimulus is wound back. However even in aus to the individual it has been wound back, its only the infrastructure stimulus that is really left to be implemented.

So in essence, yes it is more risk for the property companies, but i'm sure it is calculated risks that they would only take on if they are comfortable and see it as a positive for shareholders. All companies are going to have risk, you just have to be comfortable that management understand the risk they are taking on, which I would be confident Westfield would handle any loans dilligently.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> For someone who claims to have made hundreds of thousands of dollars you seem to have a very large chip on your shoulder.
> 
> If you wish to respond to the specific points I have made then by all means, be my guest.




I don't think I have a chip on my shoulder. 

I was just pointing out that any one can take a quick glance at any sector and probally come up with 5 reasons why the present time is a bad time to invest in the sector or company.

I get a bit tired of spending weeks thinking about a company and researching the facts only to have people make out I am a fool for having faith in that company.

But hey I guess I have to live with that, It wouldn't be much of a forum if we all agreed on everything. 

If you don't believe that I made the investments that I listed above you can check a thread a made called "rate my portfolio" you will see that many people were scoffing at my portfolio at the time, you can also check the threads on each of the companies you will see posts I made saying I was accumulating the stocks. 

The only one I mentioned that I didn't take full advantage of was VRL I sold out early to buy more AHE (which was a bigger gain any way) and only made 30% instead of 225%,


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> Thats a big potential 'IF' the small business fails. I'm sure westfield, or stockland, or whomever the larger company is, they do their due dilegence on the company beforehand to make sure they will be profitable enough to not only pay their rent but also pay their loan owing to their larger company.
> 
> .




yeah alot of "IF's", 

If some of westfields store's need capital and
If some of them can't get other finance and
if westfields happens to lend them money and 
If they can't repay the loan

Lets say 5% of tenants need capital  this year, and 10% of those can't arrange other finance, and 5% of those need it so desparatly that westfields have to step in, and 5% of those can't repay. 

we are talking about 0.00005% of tenants not repaying, And that only "IF" this may be happening on a large scale. which I don't think it is.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> yeah alot of "IF's",
> 
> If some of westfields store's need capital and
> If some of them can't get other finance and
> ...



This is just pointless speculation.

The fact is that it's happening within the sector. Are you disputing the proposition that it increases overall sector risk ?


----------



## oldblue (20 February 2010)

I don't intend to buy into the bigger "discussion" that seems to be going on here but on the subject of risk to WDC in supporting/lending to its tenants, yes, it is a risk but it's a business risk which WDC management is well qualified to assess and assume if appropriate.

As has been stated, risks are present with all businesses. It's the ability to assess and manage those risks that sorts out the successful companies from the unsuccessful.

Or is that too obvious?


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

The more risks there are though, the more that risk has to be factored into the price of the shares.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> This is just pointless speculation.
> 
> The fact is that it's happening within the sector. Are you disputing the proposition that it increases overall sector risk ?




Yes, Thats right Pointless speculation in response to pointless speculation,

I am saying the fact that this is happening in the sector will not have any affect on westfield's viability in the shorterm or longterm,

I can't comment on other members of the sector because I know nothing about them, except I do know stocklands assets and balance sheet don't match WDC in terms of qualty, so it may be a problem for them if they are already over leveraged and have weaker properties with weaker tenants.

The original article was talking about stockland not WDC.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Yes, Thats right Pointless speculation in response to pointless speculation,
> 
> I am saying the fact that this is happening in the sector will not have any affect on westfield's viability in the shorterm or longterm,



Where have I questioned the viability of Westfield ?



Tysonboss1 said:


> I can't comment on other members of the sector because I know nothing about them, except I do know stocklands assets and balance sheet don't match WDC in terms of qualty, so it may be a problem for them if they are already over leveraged and have weaker properties with weaker tenants.
> 
> The original article was talking about stockland not WDC.



There is a reference to Westfield in the article. As you have now read it you would be aware of that.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> There is a reference to Westfield in the article. As you have now read it you would be aware of that.




It's means nothing, It's just a media beat up for a story. Even the stockland guy says the amounts they have loaned are immaterial amounts, and then he just throws WDC's name out there in a throw any comment.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> It's means nothing, It's just a media beat up for a story. Even the stockland guy says the amounts they have loaned are immaterial amounts, and then he just throws WDC's name out there in a throw any comment.



The fact it is being done is material. As to whether Quinn's comment about WDC is throw away you can't be sure of that. The retail environment environment in the USA is currently far tougher than that of Australia.

Where have I questioned the viability of Westfield ?


----------



## Julia (20 February 2010)

kermit345 said:


> Thats a big potential 'IF' the small business fails. I'm sure westfield, or stockland, or whomever the larger company is, they do their due dilegence on the company beforehand to make sure they will be profitable enough to not only pay their rent but also pay their loan owing to their larger company.
> 
> Yes if the small business defaults then the large company takes on the debt and risk and loses their money. But it also can provide the returns on any idle cash they may have had as well.
> 
> ...



Reasonable comments.



Tysonboss1 said:


> It wouldn't be much of a forum if we all agreed on everything.



Agree.  That's the point of a forum.  Any discussion which forces us to consider our decisions in light of a different view is not wasted.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> The fact it is being done is material. As to whether Quinn's comment about WDC is throw away you can't be sure of that. The retail environment environment in the USA is currently far tougher than that of Australia.
> 
> Where have I questioned the viability of Westfield ?




In the last 6 moths tenancies have increased in the WDC USA assets, and on an upward trend, and the US properites are still very profiable for WDC.

I didn't say that you questioned the viability of WDC, other than hinting there is risk associated because of the factors we have been discussing. My comment was just saying that I don't believe any associated risk is of a scale that would have a large enough impact as to have a noticable affect on profitabilty or the viabilty of the company or my investment decision.


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> I didn't say that you questioned the viability of WDC, other than hinting there is risk associated because of the factors we have been discussing. My comment was just saying that I don't believe any associated risk is of a scale that would have a large enough impact as to have a noticable affect on profitabilty or the viabilty of the company or my investment decision.



How you wish to assess the risk is up to you but that does not jusitfy unrelated comments such as this.



Tysonboss1 said:


> In fact you and dr smith both made negative comments ( on different threads) in regards to my investment in Beppa. Luckily I didn't listen to you both because within weeks my 300,000 shares went from 8c to 37c.



You only make a fool out of yourself with that sort of commentary.


----------



## So_Cynical (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> It does increase overall sector risk and that is something any potential investor needs to be aware of.




Its a nothing really...landlords 'helping' there tenants pay the rent or 'helping' to make there bussinesses more profitable is never going to impact negitively on the landlords, the property industry just dosent work that way.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (20 February 2010)

drsmith said:


> You only make a fool out of yourself with that sort of commentary.




Not really, Had things gone differently I don't think the band wagon of nay sayers would have missed their opportunity to say "I told you so".


----------



## gooner (20 February 2010)

oldblue said:


> I don't intend to buy into the bigger "discussion" that seems to be going on here but on the subject of risk to WDC in supporting/lending to its tenants, yes, it is a risk but it's a business risk which WDC management is well qualified to assess and assume if appropriate.
> 
> As has been stated, risks are present with all businesses. It's the ability to assess and manage those risks that sorts out the successful companies from the unsuccessful.
> 
> Or is that too obvious?




Not sure that WDC is well qualified - it is in the retail space leasing business not lending business. Personally, I hope that they are not extending too much credit to tenants.

I hold


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## oldblue (21 February 2010)

gooner said:


> Not sure that WDC is well qualified - it is in the retail space leasing business not lending business. Personally, I hope that they are not extending too much credit to tenants.
> 
> I hold




I consider them qualified in the sense that they know "retailing", probably better than anyone else given their history and scale of operation, eg they'
re in a strong position to assess the likelihood of success in a particular sector in a particular location. I would also think they are able to recruit experienced credit/lending staff.

It's been mentioned before that assisting tenants in various ways is nothing new. The extent to which this goes is important of course but I would back WDC to handle this as well as, or better, than any other landlord.


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## kermit345 (22 February 2010)

I would say this information of lending to tennants is material, but not so much that it should sway a investment decision (in my view). While it may be slightly more risk (and Tyson has highlighted the IF's involved with whom they may be lending) this could also provide slightly more reward, as #1 its a tennant they may not have had providing a rental income, and #2 i'm sure WDC or any other property investor does not simply lend them the money for free. So the loan interest is another form of return for the risk involved.

You have to remember these loans would have been made during and after the bulk of the GFC, not beforehand. Thus you'd think they would be less likely to default as businesses should have been performing better since the trough of the GFC. 

Just my personal view, I think the article has merit, just isn't a major factor that would influence any view I have on WDC as a whole.


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## nulla nulla (23 February 2010)

Over the past 4 - 5 years, I have spoken with some tenants of Westfield Australian malls and some of them suggested that Westfields may be more flexible in it's dealings with its larger chain customers than it is with the smaller franchise outlets. Their argument being the bigger anchor clients bring in the passing custom for the smaller franchise outlets. Rightly or wrongly it was suggested that Westfields was fairly incistant on being paid rent as and when it was due without argument or concession for hardship experienced by the smaller outlets in any economic downturn. The reality is, there are plenty of hopefulls lining up to open new shops whenever a vacancy arises. Occupancy, particularly in Australia is high. Notwithstanding the share price continues to suffer from the uncertaincy of occupancy and income from the US and European outlets. The dividend for this year will fall and the share price has been savaged since it went exdiv. Where to from here?


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## ROE (23 February 2010)

don't expect too much capital appreciation from these old big bluechip
they are the stories of the past.

Get these for steady and reasonable dividend pay out and lock it in the draw some where... I got them but I didn't buy until it's 10ish mark and
I'm not into for huge capital gain. 

You want fast capital appreciation, and decent annual compound dividend grow prepare to spend time and search for quality hidden small gems that no one look or research... 

not many but there are a dozen or so around... look hard and you find them 
some of them I accumulate in the last 2 years are CCV and FGE
I got one more underway accumulating  but I ain't done and I don't want competition.


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## nawshus (30 April 2010)

WDC had a good run today, my newb prediction says it will pass $13 by next week. I've been holding WDC since april last year, and it's been working out so far.


----------



## Julia (30 April 2010)

nawshus said:


> WDC had a good run today, my newb prediction says it will pass $13 by next week. I've been holding WDC since april last year, and it's been working out so far.



Can you explain your definition of "working out"?
It's less than $3 more now than it was in April last year.


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## So_Cynical (30 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Can you explain your definition of "working out"?
> It's less than $3 more now than it was in April last year.




Maybe he's got a million bucks in it...and is happy to get a 160K + return on it over 12 months. :dunno:


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## drsmith (30 April 2010)

Westfield did not get slaughtered as much as other property groups on the way down so consequently it has not recovered as much. It also retains significant exposure to the US and UK economies which are not as robust as ours.

Being a large, mature enterprise its strong growth days are well behind it. If one believes in the sector and management remains sound then it's one that can achieve a mixture of solid if not spectacular long term growth and income.


----------



## nawshus (1 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Can you explain your definition of "working out"?
> It's less than $3 more now than it was in April last year.




I'm happy with the $3 capital gain for now, so it's working out for me. I think WDC is undervalued and it's sp still has a lot of potential.


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## drsmith (1 May 2010)

Top down the growth in retail sales in the western economies in which Westfield operates has been financed a lot by increased consumer debt.

Unless they expand into emerging economies (China and India for example), their growth will be limited. The Lowy's have up to this point been cautious with their expansion into new markets and this to some extent saved Westfield from the slaughter of other listed property unit prices during the GFC.

Their real long term capital growth rate is therefore likely to be limited at best.


----------



## Julia (1 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> Top down the growth in retail sales in the western economies in which Westfield operates has been financed a lot by increased consumer debt.
> 
> Unless they expand into emerging economies (China and India for example), their growth will be limited. The Lowy's have up to this point been cautious with their expansion into new markets and this to some extent saved Westfield from the slaughter of other listed property unit prices during the GFC.
> 
> Their real long term capital growth rate is therefore likely to be limited at best.



Agree.  Plenty of much more profitable stocks than WDC.
But for some unfathomable reason it - along with QBE - always seems to get included in basic portfolios.


----------



## oldblue (2 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Agree.  Plenty of much more profitable stocks than WDC.
> But for some unfathomable reason it - along with QBE - always seems to get included in basic portfolios.




Probably because of a general perception of these stocks as "best of class" in their respective sectors and offering steady growth at relatively low risk. 

I don't hold either, although I watchlist QBE, but I can see the appeal for many investors.


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## nulla nulla (2 May 2010)

Recent trading suggests the share price for wdc is climbing in a sideways and upward channel. However on Friday wdc opened above the upper channel marker and took of steadily through the day. 
This price increase was at odds with the rest of the market and in the abscence of any fantastic news I can only magine that some of the resource stock holders see security in wdc, with its' yield on present price levels, as being safer than resources exposed to the Henry Tax reviews. 
Unfortunately a review of previous spikes shows that it retraces again savagely after a few days as profit takers lock in their gains.


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## Tysonboss1 (27 May 2010)

http://vimeo.com/12047088

http://vimeo.com/12047088

Above is a great video Westfiled has put together for their 50 year aniversary.

The video is high quality so you will have to pause and down load for a good 10 mins or so.


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## drsmith (2 November 2010)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ustralian-assets/story-e6frg9gx-1225946809564

I wonder what they will call it. Westfield Trust the 2'nd ?

The announcement when it comes out will make for facinating reading.

EDIT: Westfield Retail does sound better than Westfield Trust the 2'nd.


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## ROE (2 November 2010)

Probably split the development arm from the landlord arms  and have two listed companies

1. Westfield Construction.
2. Westfield Retail.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (3 November 2010)

ROE said:


> Probably split the development arm from the landlord arms  and have two listed companies
> 
> 1. Westfield Construction.
> 2. Westfield Retail.




From my understanding the new trust "westfield retail" is going to take 50% of the ownership of westfield groups Australian and newzealand properties.

This will leave westfield group with the remaining 50% of australian and newzealand properties + the usa properties + UK properties + management rights + development operations.


----------



## nawshus (3 November 2010)

Is the SP value of WDC going to go down because of this? since 50% of au/nz retail is going towards it.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (4 November 2010)

nawshus said:


> Is the SP value of WDC going to go down because of this? since 50% of au/nz retail is going towards it.




Yes, in theory it should drop by about $2.75. But investors total value of investment should stay about the same because they will be given a share in the new trust worth about $2.75. So rather than owning i wdc share at circa $13. they will own 1 wdc share worth circa $10.25 + 1 new trust share circa $2.75.

By my calculations WDC should be trading some where close to $10.44 after the deal is done. But who knows what the market will value it at. It may trade on a higher earnings multiple if investors consider the increased return on equity to be worth extra.


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## shinobi346 (4 November 2010)

Tysonboss1 said:


> From my understanding the new trust "westfield retail" is going to take 50% of the ownership of westfield groups Australian and newzealand properties.
> 
> This will leave westfield group with the remaining 50% of australian and newzealand properties + the usa properties + UK properties + management rights + development operations.





I can't figure out why they are splitting the AU and NZ properties among 2 shares. Why not have one pure overseas play and one local?

This split is bringing back memories to me of Centro where they had a retail and property fund. Fogetting what happen ed to them, I would be keen to have some shopping centre shares in my portfolio again.

5:29 in the video - that brings back memories of Toombuls old glory days and the iconic T sign - I can't believe the council allowed them to take it down. For a long time Toombul was heaps more popular and bigger than Chermside. How times change.


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## skc (4 November 2010)

I haven't come across any analyst report that detail exactly what shareholder value is created by splitting. There is probably a slight PE benefit to the Westfield group given that they are no longer tied to the property holdings (or not as much of it anyway). But the typical A-REIT on the market is trading below NTA... so I really don't know how the market will value the 2 new entities, and whether the existing shareholders are better off.

Also, the public can actually buy into Westfield retail trust as an IPO. This is most unusual, did they not think that there will be enough existing holders buying into the capital raising? Although WDC does have the brand recognition to attract some money from the pulic.

Has anyone seen a good article analysing the situation?



shinobi346 said:


> 5:29 in the video - that brings back memories of Toombuls old glory days and the iconic T sign - I can't believe the council allowed them to take it down. For a long time Toombul was heaps more popular and bigger than Chermside. How times change.




I was driving pass Toombul and had the exact same thought... it was the place to be on Brisbane's North back in the days. Haven't been there for 5 years at least.


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## drsmith (4 November 2010)

I'd suggest the primary purpose of this is to raise capital and that it was felt that a vehicle that did not have exposure to the US/UK markets would be more attractive to local investors. The Lowy's like to develop and debt financing is less of an option now than it was in 2004.

Of further interest is an extension of the trading halt pending the release of an announcement by the group.

An extension to bed this down or something else ?


----------



## skc (4 November 2010)

Article from the Australian...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...westfield-empire/story-e6frg9gx-1225947507404



> Fund managers and analysts told The Australian it was a sophisticated capital rearranging exercise, offering "marginal benefits" to investors. "They are not buying or selling any assets. But they are shifting capital from one vehicle to another and in the process incurring $200 million in costs," said fund manager Winston Sammut of Maxim Asset Management.
> 
> A substantial investor said: "The benefit to unitholders is marginal. We will be offered entry into a business offering low a return on equity. This deal is not a company-making deal. It is just a way of getting another capital partner for the group."
> 
> ...




$200m in fees is a good 10c per share...


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## Mitsimonsta (5 November 2010)

A 'pure local play' is very enticing, the business here is doing extremely well and is very profitable. The US and UK businesses are holding it back, whereas before the US was doing very well prior to the GFC.

I think it will open up some very interesting possibilities. WDT may eventually decide to raise it's stake in certain properties, which then liberates more cash for WDC to look for more opportunities. I would hope that in a few years that WDT would wholly own at least one property in each capital city.

The only 'stumble' here is that they have not spun enough of the local properties into the WDT vehicle. A 70/30 split in WDT's favour would have been a much more exciting deal. It would have left WDC as a less interesting thing to buy into though, with the UK and US businesses weighing so much.

I only hold $2.5K of WDC, so not a major for me. I am in favour of this proposal and will take up my shareholder entitlement of about 51 shares. Due to the 1:4.23 ratio, it's not exactly going to break the bank - less than $150. Would have much preferred to see a 1:2 offer to holders and a smaller public offer (or none at all). I still have some reservations about it, I can see that they are trying to do but I agree with the analysts that there is more restructure coming from WDC. The fact we had a second trading halt is proof of that - capraise for WDC also? Sale of assets overseas? Roll out 50% of the US and UK properties into another REIT? Buy Centro? 

Still deciding if I want to take up the public offer. $2k min + $500 lots thereafter is a bit more than I wanted to. A $1K public offer guarantee for WDC holders would have been helpful.


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## skc (5 November 2010)

The punters have no idea which way this should go. 

Opened $12.95, dropped to $12.7, pushed up to $13.08, had a low of $12.60 now hovering around $12.67.

That's basically the 10c per share bank fee coming out of the share price.

It still feels like a nothing sort of split with a cap raising thrown in without any real discount or benefits to existing holders.


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## ParleVouFrancois (5 November 2010)

SKC given that the current company is a combination of "growth" overseas assets and comparatively more safe and stable Australian and New Zealand assets, I can see exactly where the value comes into play. You now have the option of buying into the more income stream type Westfield Retail, which is going to be more stable debt wise etc, than the current Westfield Group. 

Thus each company will appeal to different investors, in theory increasing the MC of the combined company compared to the previous structure. It's a bit of a stretch but I guess it works in theory, and I don't hold any shares so no worries from me personally. Obviously if you hold it'll be more of a major issue.

I agree there aren't many discounts or benefits to existing holders, but that's just the way the company has structured the deal.


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## skc (5 November 2010)

ParleVouFrancois said:


> SKC given that the current company is a combination of "growth" overseas assets and comparatively more safe and stable Australian and New Zealand assets, I can see exactly where the value comes into play. You now have the option of buying into the more income stream type Westfield Retail, which is going to be more stable debt wise etc, than the current Westfield Group.
> 
> Thus each company will appeal to different investors, in theory increasing the MC of the combined company compared to the previous structure. It's a bit of a stretch but I guess it works in theory, and I don't hold any shares so no worries from me personally. Obviously if you hold it'll be more of a major issue.
> 
> I agree there aren't many discounts or benefits to existing holders, but that's just the way the company has structured the deal.




I know what the thoery says 

Supposedly the market doesn't like conglomerates or companies that combine different businesses. Supposedly diversification is best undertaken by individual investors rather than company executives. And the market dislike that so much, that there is often a discount applied to those parts which would otherwise be valued higher if they are separate.

What I fail to see is a clear rationale behind the split in terms of value creation, given that we didn't know if, or by how much, the market was discounting WDC holding assets that require different leverage and ROE etc.

Based on comparable companies I'd say there wasn't much discount in WDC's share price, and hence there was nothing to "unlock" by splitting. The value lost however was obvious with all the fees to the banks and the additional CEO/board remunerations for the new trust.

We will soon find out what the combined share price for the two companies will be...

I actaully have a short position on WDC before it went into the halt so that's probably why I am slightly cynical...


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## matthewl (11 April 2011)

It's not looking good at the moment. WDC dropped again today to a low of 9.11.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## Tysonboss1 (12 April 2011)

matthewl said:


> It's not looking good at the moment.QUOTE]
> 
> Thats a matter of opinion? I happen to prefer lower share prices. Infact I see stockmarket surges like we have been experiancing as an annoyance.
> 
> ...


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## nulla nulla (12 April 2011)

skc said:


> I know what the thoery says
> 
> Supposedly the market doesn't like conglomerates or companies that combine different businesses. Supposedly diversification is best undertaken by individual investors rather than company executives. And the market dislike that so much, that there is often a discount applied to those parts which would otherwise be valued higher if they are separate.
> 
> ...




I originally held Westfield America, then they joined all the units togeter and I ended up with WDC. I held them all the way up then all the way down. I finally sold them when they got into the rut between $11.00 and $13.00. Traded them a few times then let them go when I was relatively square. 

Now that they have split I am watching them again for trade opportunities.

Personally I can't see how the argument for them to be sperated now is better than the argument for them to be joined years back. Sounds like a money spinner for the consultants.


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## drsmith (12 April 2011)

nulla nulla said:


> Personally I can't see how the argument for them to be sperated now is better than the argument for them to be joined years back. Sounds like a money spinner for the consultants.



They wanted to raise capital to fund their development pipeline and felt that a trust with purely Australian assets would be more attractive to Australian investors.

The consultants would be happier than the investors at present.


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## Tysonboss1 (14 July 2011)

Westfield tower. rebranding.


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## tinhat (14 July 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Westfield tower. rebranding.





It glows red at night and is quite an eye-sore on the sky-line. **** you Frank Lowey.


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## Tysonboss1 (14 July 2011)

tinhat said:


> It glows red at night and is quite an eye-sore on the sky-line. **** you Frank Lowey.




Chin up kid, life ain't that bad. 

I can hardly see how a glowing sign amid the rest of the city lights can be considered an eye-sore, especially when it was just replacing the old AMP sign.


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## skc (14 July 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Chin up kid, life ain't that bad.
> 
> I can hardly see how a glowing sign amid the rest of the city lights can be considered an eye-sore, especially when it was just replacing the old AMP sign.




The marketing team always need to be doing something (i.e. spending). Of course no one can prove or disprove whether that few $m investment in the big red sign deliver any returns what so ever.

Meanwhile the whole retail REIT sector is in red today, match that of the glowing sign...


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## Tysonboss1 (14 July 2011)

skc said:


> The marketing team always need to be doing something (i.e. spending). Of course no one can prove or disprove whether that few $m investment in the big red sign deliver any returns what so ever.
> 
> Meanwhile the whole retail REIT sector is in red today, match that of the glowing sign...




They own Sydney tower, it is the site for their global flag ship shopping centre, and their office is moving from the old Westfield building to this site, hence the rebranding, it all advertising, it will strengthen the brand.


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## prawn_86 (23 November 2013)

OK just for personal reasons I am trying to find the status of the Village At Topanga development. Their website says stage 1 due for completion this year, but that wont happen.

Where would I find an updated construction schedule?


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