# Trading guilt



## md44

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.

I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).

Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.

Thanks very much everyone.


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## cynic

Of the forex traders I've personally met, none of them were unduly concerned by the guilt of profiting from another's losses. All were (without exception) far more concerned about discovering a way to become consistently profitable. 

This does of course raise the question: 

"If all of the forex traders I have ever met are continually losing year after year, who is profiting from their losses?"

After having perused numerous PDS's from various FX and OTC derivatives providers, I suspect I already know the answer to just such a question.

In the event that someone is feeling morally challenged by profiting from an essentially "zero sum" gaming/speculating activity, perhaps one needs to consider that the counterparty is (presumably) also seeking to profit at another's expense and is therefore equally accountable for the outcome resulting from their decision to participate.


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## skc

md44 said:


> I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).




Your 2 points... 

1. Earning money without creating value. 

Firstly you are doing something meaningful. The textbook answer is that all traders are providing liquidity and assisting price discovery. They are primary elements of a functioning market. So if you believe that markets have a role in the modern society, and recognise the fact that there is no such thing as a market without traders, then you have a part in creating and sustaining something that is of importance (and value) to a society. Sure, if you quit trading tomorrow the market is still going to function as usual. But that applies to most other professions. E.g. a police quitting tomorrow won't cause the collapse in law and order.

Now, assuming you have established that what you do is indeed of some value. The question then becomes personal... is that the sort of value you wish to contribute to the society. Personally, I think the vast majority of jobs are the same in terms of value creation / meaningfulness. The marketing director for Telstra mobile might have a sense of mission that he's providing quality communication to the public... and that's all good to him. But to me he's just trying to sell more handsets and data and minutes. I don't believe there is an absolute objective scale to judge whether what he does is more or less meaningful than a trader.

I do however believe there are professions out there that I respect a lot more than traders... e.g. police, community carers, educators, doctors etc. If you feel strongly that way, however, you can always contribute to their cause either via volunteering or making donations. In that sense, you are simply doing what you are good at, while also creating what you believe is the greater good. It's an efficient division of labour.

2. I think Cynic has a good point. 



cynic said:


> In the event that someone is feeling morally challenged by profiting from an essentially "zero sum" gaming/speculating activity, perhaps one needs to consider that the counterparty is (presumably) also seeking to profit at another's expense and is therefore equally accountable for the outcome resulting from their decision to participate.




No one is forced to play the game.

Another way to think about it... if you are in sports, would you feel guilty about winning a tournament or competition? You can only win by beating others...


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## PennD

md44 said:


> specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).




Whats stopping you from creating value with the money you earn. That should clear your conscience


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## Joules MM1

md44 said:


> ...I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings .....




this has something to do with an inner dialogue that you can replace with a stronger dialogue

learn one, teach one

make a mission of something that is bigger than you, that adds value for someone else to take

learn one, teach one


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## md44

Thank you all so much for the fantastic responses.

This has been causing a lot of stress for me so I really appreciate the help you have provided.


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## banco

I don't know why you'd feel any guilt trading against willing participants.

What was done in the US energy markets by Enron and others is a different story as they were essentially pushing up prices of commodities (electricity and natural gas) that everyday people have no choice but to consume.  They should have been taken out and shot.


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## AverageJoe

banco said:


> I don't know why you'd feel any guilt trading against willing participants.
> 
> What was done in the US energy markets by Enron and others is a different story as they were essentially pushing up prices of commodities (electricity and natural gas) that everyday people have no choice but to consume.  They should have been taken out and shot.




It is a guilty feeling I love to have EACH time I take a trade. Suspect most traders are yet to discover those guilty feelings.


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## Craton

I like the sport/game analogy, which reminds me, isn't Forex the biggest game in town?

Speaking strictly in trading terms, I've felt guilt over a loss (how dare I blow my earned like that!) but never from a profitable one (yeehaa!).

There's a reason I/we are in the market/s, to make a profit right? 
So let me put it by way of a simplified sobering thought, profit divided by one's tax rate = tax to pay. Gotta keep the cogs and capitalist wheels turning ya know.


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## md44

Thanks again to everyone for the fantastic responses.

Unfortunately no matter how hard I try I still cannot seem to overcome these feelings.

My thoughts always return to the following situation:
One of my ultimate goals is to purchase an exotic car. When this happens, will I truly feel as if I deserve it, knowing how many people had to suffer for me to get to that point? Although I'd never know, I could have taken someone's entire life savings.
Furthermore, whilst purchasing the car, if the salesperson was to ask me about my business, and I explained to them that I was a Forex trader, would they "look down" on me? I know I shouldn't care so much about the opinions of others, but in certain situations it would feel horrible to not have the respect of others.

On the other hand, technically one could apply this level of guilt to stock investors. Even if someone buys and holds for years and years, they are technically still trading. Should they feel guilty too?

Thanks so much again for your help everyone.


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## barney

md44 said:


> Thanks again to everyone for the fantastic responses.
> 
> Unfortunately no matter how hard I try I still cannot seem to overcome these feelings.
> 
> My thoughts always return to the following situation:
> One of my ultimate goals is to purchase an exotic car. When this happens, will I truly feel as if I deserve it, knowing how many people had to suffer for me to get to that point? Although I'd never know, I could have taken someone's entire life savings.




Out of curiosity md44 how do you feel when you have losing trades?

To feel the depth of guilt you speak of I assume you must be very successful at FX trading?  

There are many here including myself who would appreciate any positive advice on how to improve at Forex trading. Giving advice may even help alleviate your feelings of guilt  ... win win situation


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## skyQuake

Seems to be guilt as result of ur actions (making money off others)

Would you also feel guilt as a result of your inactions?


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## md44

barney said:


> Out of curiosity md44 how do you feel when you have losing trades?
> 
> To feel the depth of guilt you speak of I assume you must be very successful at FX trading?
> 
> There are many here including myself who would appreciate any positive advice on how to improve at Forex trading. Giving advice may even help alleviate your feelings of guilt  ... win win situation




Thanks very much for your reply barney.

I consider a losing trade a business expense, so I don't really stress over it too much.

Unfortunately I wouldn't consider myself to be very successful at FX trading at this time. I haven't traded for several months because of this guilt . Before that my profits weren't consistent (I think this was again due to the problems with my mindset).


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## md44

skyQuake said:


> Seems to be guilt as result of ur actions (making money off others)
> 
> Would you also feel guilt as a result of your inactions?




Interesting point.

In the general sense I would feel guilty about not taking action to achieve my goals. However, my desire to achieve my goals won't override the feelings of guilt from trading.


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## hhse

As others mentioned, you are providing a service - liquidity.

Also, you don't know who the counter party is. Sure there are speculators, but there are also many who seek to hedge out FX risk from their business - because their core business may be in manufacturing, import & sales, export sales and not "FX".

People only get hurt, because they get too large, which is beyond your control.


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## Wysiwyg

md44 said:


> Unfortunately I wouldn't consider myself to be very successful at FX trading at this time.



Don't feel alone with that fact. The news/no news price spikes are killers.

Question v. question = does the financial system feel guilty when honest people lose hard earned investment monies?


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## skyQuake

md44 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> In the general sense I would feel guilty about not taking action to achieve my goals. However, my desire to achieve my goals won't override the feelings of guilt from trading.




I think you are worrying too much about who/what your profits can *potentially* hurt

Perhaps there is someone long, waiting on the ask to get out, your inaction prevented you from hitting that ask, and thus costing him many $$$ as he did not have a stop loss...

Alternately, your non-donation to Doctors Without Borders resulted in a distress case that couldn't be handled which resulted in permanent disability. 

Maybe that crappy trader your just bankrupted turns out to be a brilliant medical mind and goes on to cure cancer. If it werent for you he'd be a mediocre portfolio manager in 20 years time...

Or that sneeze which was in right place at the right time to subtly shift an air current 0.0001 degrees off course, thus brewing a super hurricane in 9 years time, devastating Florida.

Don't get caught up in the might have beens!


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## Gringotts Bank

md44 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> In the general sense I would feel guilty about not taking action to achieve my goals. However, my desire to achieve my goals won't override the feelings of guilt from trading.




It's a competition, but you're really aiming to beat yourself, not others.  No one can lose without giving some kind of permission for that to happen.  I know that sounds vague, but I reckon that's how it works.  

Closely related to guilt is the feeling of unworthiness which will cause a trader to sabotage himself after a string of wins.  I was doing that for a long time.


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## md44

hhse said:


> As others mentioned, you are providing a service - liquidity.
> 
> Also, you don't know who the counter party is. Sure there are speculators, but there are also many who seek to hedge out FX risk from their business - because their core business may be in manufacturing, import & sales, export sales and not "FX".
> 
> People only get hurt, because they get too large, which is beyond your control.




I was thinking about this aspect of trading today. Hypothetically could the Forex market exist without speculators? Would the businesses hedging their FX risk provide enough liquidity on their own?



Wysiwyg said:


> Don't feel alone with that fact. The news/no news price spikes are killers.
> 
> Question v. question = does the financial system feel guilty when honest people lose hard earned investment monies?




I feel that the financial system (markets) are neutral. They simply provide opportunities and it is up to individuals to interpret what they see - (A lesson from the book "Trading in the Zone").



skyQuake said:


> I think you are worrying too much about who/what your profits can *potentially* hurt
> 
> Perhaps there is someone long, waiting on the ask to get out, your inaction prevented you from hitting that ask, and thus costing him many $$$ as he did not have a stop loss...
> 
> Alternately, your non-donation to Doctors Without Borders resulted in a distress case that couldn't be handled which resulted in permanent disability.
> 
> Maybe that crappy trader your just bankrupted turns out to be a brilliant medical mind and goes on to cure cancer. If it werent for you he'd be a mediocre portfolio manager in 20 years time...
> 
> Or that sneeze which was in right place at the right time to subtly shift an air current 0.0001 degrees off course, thus brewing a super hurricane in 9 years time, devastating Florida.
> 
> Don't get caught up in the might have beens!




Definitely a good point. I think the problem here is that it is known the Forex market is typically the worst in terms of people using ridiculous leverage and trying to scalp the small timeframe charts. The majority of these people lose all of their money.



Gringotts Bank said:


> It's a competition, but you're really aiming to beat yourself, not others.  No one can lose without giving some kind of permission for that to happen.  I know that sounds vague, but I reckon that's how it works.
> 
> Closely related to guilt is the feeling of unworthiness which will cause a trader to sabotage himself after a string of wins.  I was doing that for a long time.




Agreed. Self sabotage is a big problem for traders. That is exactly why my guilt has caused a few losses for me over the past 6 months or so.


Thanks again everyone. Perhaps it's just going to take time until the guilt goes away?


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## Craton

md44, r u OK? Have you considered or spoken to a shrink yet, or sort counselling?

I'm no expert but if you have such strong feelings over FX trading and what others "might" think of you, I would assume you have these underlying issues in other areas of your life too. My worry is that what you're feeling could lead to some very dark consequences.

If it bothers you that much, please seek professional help.


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## md44

Craton said:


> md44, r u OK? Have you considered or spoken to a shrink yet, or sort counselling?
> 
> I'm no expert but if you have such strong feelings over FX trading and what others "might" think of you, I would assume you have these underlying issues in other areas of your life too. My worry is that what you're feeling could lead to some very dark consequences.
> 
> If it bothers you that much, please seek professional help.




I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.

It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.

Thanks so much everyone.


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## barney

md44 said:


> Thanks very much for your reply barney.
> 
> I haven't traded for several months because of this guilt . Before that my profits weren't consistent (I think this was again due to the problems with my mindset).




That's interesting md.

Personally I think your feeling guilty about taking money out of the FX market is one of the things you should feel least guilty about in life.  In the past I've lost large sums of money trying to trade things without enough skill, and the only guilt I feel about trading is the "letting my family down" guilt.

I think you could perhaps take a step back and try and put trading in perspective compared to other facets of life ... Just a couple of random examples ....

Do you feel guilty if/when ....

1) A shop assistant accidentally gives you more change at the checkout but you don't realise till you get home (They will likely be in the crap with the boss for their till being out)
2) You find cash lying on the footpath.  (Maybe that was some young kids wages)
3) You buy a used car and you haggle the current owner down an extra few hundred because they are desperate to sell.

etc. etc. ... Not great examples but you get the drift.  I'd feel more guilty about all those above than taking money out of the FX market!

If I were you, instead of feeling guilty, I would focus on becoming successful at trading and then simply donate some of your winnings to worthy causes/charity's ..... win win. 

Importantly, Joe Average down the road who is losing on the market will continue to lose whether YOU trade or not.  You are not the one causing him to lose and you are not taking HIS money.  The size that the average Retail trader trades at has ZERO affect on the market .... no guilt required  Cheers.


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## Gringotts Bank

md44 said:


> I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.
> 
> It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.
> 
> Thanks so much everyone.




What would happen if you won a mill on Tatts?  The answer to this question migt be illuminating.


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## md44

barney said:


> That's interesting md.
> 
> Personally I think your feeling guilty about taking money out of the FX market is one of the things you should feel least guilty about in life.  In the past I've lost large sums of money trying to trade things without enough skill, and the only guilt I feel about trading is the "letting my family down" guilt.
> 
> I think you could perhaps take a step back and try and put trading in perspective compared to other facets of life ... Just a couple of random examples ....
> 
> Do you feel guilty if/when ....
> 
> 1) A shop assistant accidentally gives you more change at the checkout but you don't realise till you get home (They will likely be in the crap with the boss for their till being out)
> 2) You find cash lying on the footpath.  (Maybe that was some young kids wages)
> 3) You buy a used car and you haggle the current owner down an extra few hundred because they are desperate to sell.
> 
> etc. etc. ... Not great examples but you get the drift.  I'd feel more guilty about all those above than taking money out of the FX market!
> 
> If I were you, instead of feeling guilty, I would focus on becoming successful at trading and then simply donate some of your winnings to worthy causes/charity's ..... win win.
> 
> Importantly, Joe Average down the road who is losing on the market will continue to lose whether YOU trade or not.  You are not the one causing him to lose and you are not taking HIS money.  The size that the average Retail trader trades at has ZERO affect on the market .... no guilt required  Cheers.




Interesting examples. I think yes, I would feel guilty in those situations too. I think the difference between those and FX trading is I am doing it consistently (and the profit is much higher).

I would definitely be donating a significant amount to charity. This is one of my top goals.



Gringotts Bank said:


> What would happen if you won a mill on Tatts?  The answer to this question migt be illuminating.




As silly as it sounds, I think I would also feel guilty in this case.


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## Gringotts Bank

md44 said:


> Interesting examples. I think yes, I would feel guilty in those situations too. I think the difference between those and FX trading is I am doing it consistently (and the profit is much higher).
> 
> I would definitely be donating a significant amount to charity. This is one of my top goals.
> 
> 
> 
> As silly as it sounds, I think I would also feel guilty in this case.




It's pretty straight forward - you don't feel worth it.  You don't feel like you're good enough to have what you want.

Try this:

Before you start the day's trading, do something for yourself.  The way you decide what to do is to ask 'what would make me feel good?', then do it.  Maybe you go to the gym, maybe you go and get a coffee, maybe you clean the house, whatever.  Don't think what would feel good... feel what would feel good.  You're not going to be very good at this, so practice.

When you do things that create good feelings, the mind automatically registers that you must be worth it.  Net result = self worth.

Now trade and notice the difference in both 1) results and 2) how you feel about success.


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## Craton

md44 said:


> I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.
> 
> It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.
> 
> Thanks so much everyone.




I'm glad you took that the right way and so too that you have sought help. Your posting here is very brave, certainly demonstrates that you are willing to tackle your issues and I praise you for that.

Just wondering. I'm aware of your altruistic motives but why not just stop trading altogether and put that in the, "...it's not for me." basket?

Having said that, I do understand how crippling one's headspace can be and so bid you the very best in finding the solution to assist in resolving your issue/s.


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## md44

Gringotts Bank said:


> It's pretty straight forward - you don't feel worth it.  You don't feel like you're good enough to have what you want.
> 
> Try this:
> 
> Before you start the day's trading, do something for yourself.  The way you decide what to do is to ask 'what would make me feel good?', then do it.  Maybe you go to the gym, maybe you go and get a coffee, maybe you clean the house, whatever.  Don't think what would feel good... feel what would feel good.  You're not going to be very good at this, so practice.
> 
> When you do things that create good feelings, the mind automatically registers that you must be worth it.  Net result = self worth.
> 
> Now trade and notice the difference in both 1) results and 2) how you feel about success.




Fantastic points. I will definitely practise that activity. Thank you for sharing it.



Craton said:


> I'm glad you took that the right way and so too that you have sought help. Your posting here is very brave, certainly demonstrates that you are willing to tackle your issues and I praise you for that.
> 
> Just wondering. I'm aware of your altruistic motives but why not just stop trading altogether and put that in the, "...it's not for me." basket?
> 
> Having said that, I do understand how crippling one's headspace can be and so bid you the very best in finding the solution to assist in resolving your issue/s.




Thank you very much Craton. I really appreciate the support I am getting from yourself and this awesome community.

In terms of trading long term, yes, you are right in saying that stopping is a serious option at this stage. It's just difficult to convince myself that I wouldn't be "giving up" by doing so.

Thanks all.


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## md44

Hi everyone,

Sorry for bringing this issue up again.

I'm still feeling guilty to some extent, although I do think it is slowly going away.

Recently I have been researching zero sum games. Quite a few sources stated that while trading is zero sum, investing is not. This confuses me. Isn't it true that with the exception of purchasing shares via IPOs, even a buy and hold investment strategy is technically trading (since you are interacting with other market participants)?

Thanks again all.


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## helpme

md44 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.
> 
> I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).
> 
> Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.
> 
> Thanks very much everyone.




Hi md44, 
You are not alone. I have not read through the comments from other forummers in this thread yet. 

I share your guilt as well. I did bring up this subject to others but almost all of them thought I am a weirdo. Their opinion centres around "As long as you make money for yourself, why do you bother about value creation?" 

To me, it is a need to feel useful. It is the same feeling as the jobless who feel shame about not being useful even if they are not a burden to other people. 

To be honest at the risk of offending some people on this forum, investing is not really a socially useful activity. As an investor, I build nothing, create nothing. I earn money by profiting from other people's foolishness but create nothing useful in the process. Sure you can say I provide liquidity to the market. But is providing liquidity really something that makes you excited and proud about your existence? I will be very grateful if someone can convince me I am wrong to hold such an opinion.

I would like to ask forummers who are full-time investors some questions. Do you feel any pressure from society to take a job, start a business and do something useful? How do you handle awkward questions during Christmas when people ask you what do you do for a living?


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## avion

There are far bigger things to worry about...

try this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-20/must-watch-video-veneer-justice-kingdom-crime

or this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-02/capitalism-requires-world-war

You taking profits out of the market is the least of 'crimes'...


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## Gringotts Bank

I think it's a reasonable consideration.  If you're very clever in trading a zero sum game, then yes, it's like taking candy from a baby.  The 'baby' in this case is the gambler, the naive, the inexperienced.  Is that ok?

One way to address this is to say that trading is a contest and all participants are free to enter or stay away.  All professional sports operate this way.  All business is a contest for customers.  You compete with other less clever/experienced businesses.  Every success you have means less for your competitor....  

...Or does it?  There's some philosophies which suggest that the world is completely abundant.  This means that everyone gets what he expects from life.  It's hard to reconcile such a philosohpy with the concept of 'zero sum', but 'zero sum' might be a false concept.

If you don't get over this guilt, it will impact your ability to profit because as soon as you win you'll sef sabotage with a bad trade.


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## Wysiwyg

avion said:


> There are far bigger things to worry about...
> 
> try this:
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-20/must-watch-video-veneer-justice-kingdom-crime
> 
> or this:
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-02/capitalism-requires-world-war
> 
> You taking profits out of the market is the least of 'crimes'...



Great exposure. Corruption, lies, theft and cheating happens from top to bottom all over the world. Sport charities and religions for example but with finances it is part of the territory. Part of the "game". 

"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king."  Bob Dylan.


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## ggkfc

Buy some Bugattis and go for a long drive!


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## StockTrader010

Markets run on a caveat emptor basis. I don't care too much about the counterparty


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## md44

Thanks so much for your contributions everyone. I really appreciate your help with this.



helpme said:


> Hi md44,
> You are not alone. I have not read through the comments from other forummers in this thread yet.
> 
> I share your guilt as well. I did bring up this subject to others but almost all of them thought I am a weirdo. Their opinion centres around "As long as you make money for yourself, why do you bother about value creation?"
> 
> To me, it is a need to feel useful. It is the same feeling as the jobless who feel shame about not being useful even if they are not a burden to other people.
> 
> To be honest at the risk of offending some people on this forum, investing is not really a socially useful activity. As an investor, I build nothing, create nothing. I earn money by profiting from other people's foolishness but create nothing useful in the process. Sure you can say I provide liquidity to the market. But is providing liquidity really something that makes you excited and proud about your existence? I will be very grateful if someone can convince me I am wrong to hold such an opinion.
> 
> I would like to ask forummers who are full-time investors some questions. Do you feel any pressure from society to take a job, start a business and do something useful? How do you handle awkward questions during Christmas when people ask you what do you do for a living?




Thanks for sharing your experience helpme. In regards to your concerns about value creation - I used to struggle with this too, however I don't really feel guilty about this much any more... mainly because I am starting another business too, which will directly create value for others. If my only business was trading then yes I would probably have an issue with that. However, in the case of Forex, the buying/selling activity will always end up helping certain economies, so in a way this can be seen as providing value.



Gringotts Bank said:


> I think it's a reasonable consideration.  If you're very clever in trading a zero sum game, then yes, it's like taking candy from a baby.  The 'baby' in this case is the gambler, the naive, the inexperienced.  Is that ok?
> 
> One way to address this is to say that trading is a contest and all participants are free to enter or stay away.  All professional sports operate this way.  All business is a contest for customers.  You compete with other less clever/experienced businesses.  Every success you have means less for your competitor....
> 
> ...Or does it?  There's some philosophies which suggest that the world is completely abundant.  This means that everyone gets what he expects from life.  It's hard to reconcile such a philosohpy with the concept of 'zero sum', but 'zero sum' might be a false concept.
> 
> If you don't get over this guilt, it will impact your ability to profit because as soon as you win you'll sef sabotage with a bad trade.




I completely agree with your point about the contest aspect of business. I never used to think like this. It now makes me see that in a way trading isn't that different from traditional business models.

There have been many cases when self sabotage has affected my ability to profit. I am now working very hard to overcome this guilt.



StockTrader010 said:


> Markets run on a caveat emptor basis. I don't care too much about the counterparty




Agreed. Every trader knows and agrees to the risks before participating in the market.


As mentioned, recently I have been working extremely hard at overcoming this guilt. This is the way I now see the situation:
- No one is forced to participate in the market. All risks are outlined to traders before they open their trading accounts. By participating in the market they acknowledge that they have accepted and understand these risks.

- Without traders our world economies would not function. Traders facilitate price discovery and provide liquidity to the market.

- The counterparty to your trade may not in fact be losing when you profit. Let's say you are going long at a price point. The counterparty may be closing their profitable position at that point. Your transaction is therefore actually allowing them to realise their trade profit.

- As mentioned by Gringotts Bank above, the "contest" aspect of trading applies to all businesses. In a traditional business, a customer gain for you means less business for your competitors.



Just wanting to confirm with you all that my points above make sense.

Thanks very much for your help everyone. I really appreciate it.


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## ukulele

It's been an interesting read; thanks for putting it all out there.

I am in a similar boat in that I have felt investment guilt; however in a different circumstance. 

I'm fairly young and own a couple of investment properties. I often feel the same guilt; but when it comes to property it's on a much much more personal level. One of my properties is massively positively geared, I actually feel sorry for the tenants because they could own the property for a lot less than what they give me. 

With all the media hype around negative gearing and CGT discounts on the one hand I am starting to feel like I am personally responsible for keeping these people "renters for life" or I'm keeping the "first home dream out of reach". Of course on the other hand I feel like that I deserve it because I sacrificed and saved hard and (to put it cockily) I am smart and have a good job. At the end of the day it was me who took the risk. 

Now here is where you and I differ. I feel *a lot* less guilt trading on the forex and stock market so I am diversifying into shares and also do a bit of cfd trading on forex and short shares. I am also diversifying into p2p lending and I have a small holding. I feel like p2p lending is a win/win situation because you are helping someone out whilst cutting out the bank and also getting a decent return. The loans are unsecured so it is a small investment


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## md44

ukulele said:


> It's been an interesting read; thanks for putting it all out there.
> 
> I am in a similar boat in that I have felt investment guilt; however in a different circumstance.
> 
> I'm fairly young and own a couple of investment properties. I often feel the same guilt; but when it comes to property it's on a much much more personal level. One of my properties is massively positively geared, I actually feel sorry for the tenants because they could own the property for a lot less than what they give me.
> 
> With all the media hype around negative gearing and CGT discounts on the one hand I am starting to feel like I am personally responsible for keeping these people "renters for life" or I'm keeping the "first home dream out of reach". Of course on the other hand I feel like that I deserve it because I sacrificed and saved hard and (to put it cockily) I am smart and have a good job. At the end of the day it was me who took the risk.
> 
> Now here is where you and I differ. I feel *a lot* less guilt trading on the forex and stock market so I am diversifying into shares and also do a bit of cfd trading on forex and short shares. I am also diversifying into p2p lending and I have a small holding. I feel like p2p lending is a win/win situation because you are helping someone out whilst cutting out the bank and also getting a decent return. The loans are unsecured so it is a small investment




Thanks very much for your post ukulele.

It's interesting that you feel less guilt trading forex/stocks. I think I just have to remember that trading is a business, and unfortunately there are people that lose in all types of businesses.

I never used to feel this way... the guilt only started a year ago.


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## Alpaca5

md44 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.
> 
> I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).
> 
> Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.
> 
> Thanks very much everyone.




I think most jobs don't really provide much value though. Bureaucracy, social workers, "education"/research, the entire legal profession, the entire financial/banking sector which not only doesn't provide value but contributes to misallocation of resources & sucks dry other productive parts of the economy. Unless you are in mining/farming/construction/manufacturing, your contrib to the overall economy is meh.

Basically what I'm saying is, you'll get the same feeling in a LOT of jobs. Also if you are succeeding as a retail trader, good for you, that's a great achievement, and you're not the one screwing people out of money, it's usually a combination of the broker/their own greed/ignorance 

I felt the same way as you in my old job and retrained to what I felt was value-add and I am still pushing papers etc :'( lol. Maybe that speaks more to my own ability level though.


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## ThingyMajiggy

So don't trade then. 

Remember the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. 

If you feel guilty and can't get over it, try something else. Plenty of ways to make money. Just remember, someone made over a million dollars selling pet rocks a few years back.


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## pixel

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Just remember, someone made over a million dollars selling pet rocks a few years back.




Well, HE should be ashamed of himself.  Taking advantage of soft-brained individuals who let themselves be persuaded they "need" a rock as a pet. When they already have a head full or those "pets".  

But as a Roman Emperor knew already: _"nummus non olet"_ - You can't smell where the cash comes from.


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## clkelly

After scouring these forums for a bit and now with my first post, i had to add my two cents. 

This is something that did cross my mind, "should i feel guilty of profiting off other people" 

I'm about to get back into trading after 10 years away due to some heavy loses. And to put bluntly, if you're feeling guilty then maybe trading isn't for you, find something that makes you happy and content in life. 
Where i stand in life at the moment, and the instrument I'm about to trade, taking profits i won't feel one ounce of guilt. I have a family and thats my motivation and drive to succeed to provide for my family. 

You all have valid points, don't get me wrong, but i believe we're all here for different reasons, whether it be to purchase that exotic car or to simply provide a better life for our loved ones. 

md44, maybe dig deep inside and you'll find the reason you're here wanting to trade, and things might come together for you. All the best anyway...


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## Gringotts Bank

clkelly said:


> After scouring these forums for a bit and now with my first post, i had to add my two cents.
> 
> This is something that did cross my mind, "should i feel guilty of profiting off other people"
> 
> I'm about to get back into trading after 10 years away due to some heavy loses. And to put bluntly, if you're feeling guilty then maybe trading isn't for you, find something that makes you happy and content in life.
> Where i stand in life at the moment, and the instrument I'm about to trade, taking profits i won't feel one ounce of guilt. I have a family and thats my motivation and drive to succeed to provide for my family.
> 
> You all have valid points, don't get me wrong, but i believe we're all here for different reasons, whether it be to purchase that exotic car or to simply provide a better life for our loved ones.
> 
> md44, maybe dig deep inside and you'll find the reason you're here wanting to trade, and things might come together for you. All the best anyway...




Makes it sound like you treat your family well, but everyone else is there for your exploitation.  Or have I misinterpreted you?


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## clkelly

Gringotts Bank said:


> Makes it sound like you treat your family well, but everyone else is there for your exploitation.  Or have I misinterpreted you?




I think you have, I'm not here to take advantage of anyone...


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## MacDizzle

A lot of traders think they have to take money off other people like some sort of war, I know its been described like that in some books.
Its a good topic so I thought to answer this for myself to make sure I don't have extra hidden barriers to money going forward.

To me its: how do I know the stock is not going to go up further according to their longer term indicators? how do I know its not a fundamental investor? or someone who's laundering money?, some spoiled kid who just wants to own it at any price for bragging value? or someone who's in a bad situation and just wants to cash out to save his house? ..The short answer is: I don't know and that's o.k..

If my indicators say exit I exit that's all I know right or wrong. The market is very impersonal, just a evolving group of prices on a screen. just my


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## shg

Congratulations md44! Most people self sabotage with old beliefs and aren't aware of it.  In some psychology/eastern religions/philosophies they would call this your shadow or dark side as the beliefs lurk in the unconscious until you shine a light (awareness) onto them. If you believe in reincarnation, some philosophies indicate you can bring them from past lives! You can pick them up as a baby if you misinterpret things. Say you feel your mother isn't showing you love so you think you're unloveable or unworthy but actually she has migraines/postnatal depression/ morning sickness instead.  As a child there might be an event with a parent or someone where you were in trouble and decided then that you are unworthy etc.  These beliefs often show up at other times in your life if you look back.  I think if you are aware of them, then it is life/your heart/soul nudging you to be the real you.  Everyone is allowed to change/evolve. If you are aware of unhelpful beliefs you can change them.  As they are usually attached to strong emotions, logic may not work well.  Sounds like you need to work on feeling worthy, successful, appreciated by yourself.  No-one is perfect, try to love and accept yourself rather than worrying about what others think, or buying the car to impress people.  Buy the car for you, not how it may impress others.  Be who you want to be. Believe what is true to you, not something you picked up as a kid. If you can find inner security by accepting yourself, then others shouldn't matter as much.  If trading feels right for you then keep at it.  I like to spend my money in local businesses, thinking I am helping keep locals in jobs.  Everyone has beliefs that don't help and there will be more than one.  I believe I should work hard so living off passive income at the moment is uncomfortable.  Good Luck. Keep it up and hopefully you can leave them behind.


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## Gringotts Bank

Something occurred to me this morning - how being a trader contributes to society.  I've said in the past that I don't feel like any of us is obliged to help society function - which I stand by - but good traders do contribute anyway.  imo, this applies more so to those who trade with some discretionary component.  

Like so:

- The market is an extremely harsh teacher.  You either fall in line or you suffer. You are forced to learn fast.
- The market requires that you learn certain things about yourself and about life.  You have to let go of all your crap.  
- Tactics for gain which work in other jobs will not work here.  You cannot work the market.  If you try, it works _you_, and it's merciless.
- The things that you're required to learn make you a more whole person, and therein the contribution to society.

*-- *Patience.  You have to receive what the market is willing to give up.  You can't just take what you want.  On certain days, the market will offer nothing, and you have to be ok with that.
*-- *A relaxed body and smooth, regulated breathing.   
*-- *A mind free of fear and greed.  
*-- *A very focussed concentration, leading to absorption and a 'zone' state.
*-- *A mind which is happy not to predict the future or dredge up the past to obscure the present.

Anyone who has traded for a decade or so knows you can have moments when everything is perfectly clear and profits roll in.  I've had maybe 5 such times in my trading career, so I know it's possible.  The training makes you into a person who is an asset to society.  So it's an extremely hard process, but so long as that's understood, it can make a great PT or FT career choice.


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## polpak

Gringotts Bank's #46  is spot on ;-) 



Find many moments when everything not so clear,  to surrender or not surrender,  needs more studying. 

Reasonable number of times when quit to early on rising prices so reduced the rewards,  still these provided reasonable returns.

Almost as many times when did NOT quit early enough on falling prices, so increased my losses.  


Challenge is to question my own mind, am I surrendering to impulse, or is this decision really based on reason ?

As long as trades balance out onto the plus side, or reduces the write off of past losses be recovered, so am happy. 


Not so easy trading well,  while distracted by other dramas, for impulse mostly ensures losses come easier ;-(  


.


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## Wysiwyg

polpak said:


> Find many moments when everything not so clear,  to surrender or not surrender,  needs more studying.
> 
> Reasonable number of times when quit to early on rising prices so reduced the rewards,  still these provided reasonable returns.
> 
> Almost as many times when did NOT quit early enough on falling prices, so increased my losses.



That is chasing one's tail trading. It is only after the exit that the future becomes evident and when the should have/could have traders pop up. Close the trade and move on to the next minus the possibly depressing or annoying should have/could have thoughts.


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## Lemoonjuice

md44 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.
> 
> I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).
> 
> Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.
> 
> Thanks very much everyone.





Hey,

I have been winning now for 4+ years.
People have questioned me on this topic of "taking peoples money"

A few things,   People put this money in the market themselves,  they are depositing it into a gambling machine.

I do not look at my wins as coming from a person, I look at it as i just stole money from a Banker and as we all hate banks it make life very easy.


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## Value Collector

Lemoonjuice said:


> I do not look at my wins as coming from a person, I look at it as i just stole money from a Banker and as we all hate banks it make life very easy.




I don't think you should look at it as if you are stealing.

The companies on the stock market are generating millions of dollars of value every day, when you make a profit trading you are just really capturing some of this value.


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## luutzu

Value Collector said:


> I don't think you should look at it as if you are stealing.
> 
> The companies on the stock market are generating millions of dollars of value every day, when you make a profit trading you are just really capturing some of this value.




I always thought I capture both the company's value _and_ the other guy's lunch.

But reasoned that I do get it wrong here and there, so he could be the one taking my lunch. That and he probably have better opportunity elsewhere with my cash.

That and I was attracted to stocks because I misread Buffett's "double barrel approach" to  mean profiting from people's [the market's] mistake as well as benefiting from the company's future.


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