# World food shortage



## moXJO (21 April 2008)

Starting to hear about this a fair bit now.People starving, and queing for food rations due to the price of food going up so much in various countries.Just interested in what other people think the ramifications may be if this continues on.


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## Tukker (21 April 2008)

moXJO said:


> Starting to hear about this a fair bit now.People starving, and queing for food rations due to the price of food going up so much in various countries.Just interested in what other people think the ramifications may be if this continues on.




Higher prices -> more opportunities to make profit -> more production

I think its a phase, things balance out eventually.


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## Trembling Hand (21 April 2008)

Tukker said:


> Higher prices -> more opportunities to make profit -> more production
> 
> I think its a phase, things balance out eventually.




What like Oil??


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## Tukker (21 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> What like Oil??




lol touche


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## The Once-ler (21 April 2008)

Tukker said:


> I think its a phase, things balance out eventually.




Could be just a phase.

But I think,

'This time it's different'
or 
'It's a new paradign shift' Remember these from the tech boom.



LOL. Yep, I'm serious.

Oil is never going to be cheap again, so neither is food. It's pretty obvious. Oil is a major ingredient of food by the time it gets to the supermarket shelf.

Global warming.
Gains from the green revolution are slowing as production is now fully utilised
Falling water aquifers.
Drying up rivers.

Over population. 
The worlds population is headed for 9 billion from 6.5, and nothing much can slow that down. It's like an overloaded semi trailer going down hill with no brakes.

Biofuel production. 


This is going to be a disaster for the worlds poor. 
Genocide, wars in Africa. Much greater terrorist activity in the Middle East.

The only good thing that can happen is that people will wake up to themselves and drop the number of kids they are having, as if they don't do it, nature will fix the problem anyway. But it's too late for Africa and the Middle East. The middle Easts food production is mainly from ancient non replacing water aquifers that are falling, and Africa is just a basket case. Farmers growing anything gets it stollen or destoyed anyway. Plus Africa will get the hardest hit from global warming. Build a wall around the place I say.

This will be a good thing for the food producing exporting nations. Australia, New Zealand, US, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Russia.  Parts of Europe. 

Probably the only places you would want to live for the next century.


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## robert toms (21 April 2008)

Thais are being asked to eat less rice....their dominant staple.
I thought that they were an exporter ...probably are but prices are better out of the country,
Egypt has put a tariff on the export of grain...world prices are resulting on local shortages.
As long as we have a world trade system that includes food staples it looks like as we will have ongoing problems with supply and production of suitable food.
I always had to laugh when Australia  wanted Japan to open up its local market to Australian rice....and beggar their own farmers.
Was that for real !
On both counts....a water-deprived southern Australia growing rice!!!!!!


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## questionall_42 (21 April 2008)

Tukker said:


> Higher prices -> more opportunities to make profit -> more production.




I take it that people starving is OK if we make profits? Capitalism gone too far?

Go Vegan (or at least vegetarian)


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## Aussiejeff (21 April 2008)

The Once-ler said:


> ....The only good thing that can happen is that people will wake up to themselves and drop the number of kids they are having, as if they don't do it, nature will fix the problem anyway...




Hmmm. Not so sure about that philosophy. I suspect if the quality and average life expectancy for the citizens of a country start heading south at a significant rate, the opposite effect might occur. Check this link...

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=as&v=25

Australia's birthrate of 12.02 per 1,000 at the time of compilation was 165th in the world. Then check out the top 10 with *birthrates all over 40 per 1,000!!* ALL are almost without exception very poor African countries, with some of the worst living conditions and lowest life expectancies on the planet. I suspect when populations are in a desperate state, they will actually breed MORE as the death rate rises. 

In fact, if our own conditions today were to head back towards what they were when our convict forebears first set up the Colony in Oz, I would almost guarantee that birthrates would go up significantly (the Bureau of Stats shows it WAS over 40 per 1,000 back in the 1800's when child death rates were very high and life expectancy was low - sound familiar?). 

It's a case of survival of the fittest - having many children so if you are really lucky, a few might survive to adulthood to hopefully carry on the family line. If you don't have a football team sized number of births, the chances of continuing the family line are significantly reduced. Not a happy picture of the future to contemplate, eh? But that's they way it goes.  


AJ


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## gfresh (21 April 2008)

There simply isn't enough rice, wheat and corn being grown for many parts of the world. Being vegetarian really doesn't do much for this process!

I guess if you consider the amount of food and energy required per square meter produced for say cattle and staple food such as wheat or rice you may have a point - but the main problem is in places such as Africa, parts of Asia, where many don't even have the luxury of meat products.


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## Trembling Hand (21 April 2008)

questionall_42 said:


> I take it that people starving is OK if we make profits? Capitalism gone too far?




Yeah the Socialist system has never let a wealthy countryman starve


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## Happy (21 April 2008)

1 child policy, with an option to trade your allowance like carbon credits


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## moXJO (21 April 2008)

mmmmm soylent green


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## Happy (21 April 2008)

moXJO said:


> mmmmm soylent green





Some headhunters might still have memories and give a hand to logistics of procedure


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## Judd (21 April 2008)

I wonder.  Zimbabwe was at one time considered the Jewel of Africa.  Rich in resources, high education standards, expertise in farm management, sound health care.  All for the wrong reasons if you are a purist.

And now?  A basket case.  So are food shortages, in that particular country at least created with ramifications for the rest of Africa, a result of mismanagement?

There is no way i would know how to run a farm productively or to manage stock, grain or any other produce so if farms or similar were handed to me it would go to Hell in a bread basket within a very short space of time.  Is this what has actually happened in the African/Asian regions as opposed to a shortage of food due to a growing population (throw in climate change to keep faith with the believers) with good farm management?


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## disarray (21 April 2008)

Judd said:


> There is no way i would know how to run a farm productively or to manage stock, grain or any other produce so if farms or similar were handed to me it would go to Hell in a bread basket within a very short space of time.




yeah but your first plan of action wouldn't be to destroy all the farm equipment and burn everything else down. i second the "wall off africa" motion. i'd also like to see a nice new shiny fleet of fast patrol boats sitting off broome for the forseeable future.


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## Pager (21 April 2008)

So the farm subsidies given by various western governments around the globe are a myth then ?.

How many food mountains do the Europeans currently have ?, over the last few weeks/months the commercial TV networks have been running storeys about cheap food imports into Australia putting Aussies out of work, ruining our agricultural and farming industry's etc ?.

Sad thing is any food shortage in poor country's is down to someone needing to make a $, no pay, no food.


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

are we alluding to universal socialism here - where the rich supporting the deprived is enforced equally throughout the planet?? - food, population and earnings. 
recall a book published after the club of rome did their thing in the early 70's called "limits to growth" I think, where on this basis we all got US$1100 pa and not everyone could have even one kid - suspect with pop growth since and inflation the numbers may still be the same today wealth up but pop up so still $1100 pa each - one of the reasons true socialism never took off in the west I feel
here's a TP "encapsulation" of the club's findings


> The second conclusion of the study is that piecemeal approaches to solving the individual problems will not be successful. To demonstrate this point, the authors arbitrarily double their estimates of the resource base and allow the model to trace out an alternative vision based on this new higher level of resources. In this alternative vision the collapse still occurs, but this time it is caused by excessive pollution generated by the increased pace of industrialization permitted by the greater availability of resources. The authors then suggest that if the depletable resource and pollution problems were somehow jointly solved, population would grow unabated and the availability of food would become the binding constraint. In this model the removal of one limit merely causes the system to bump subsequently into another one, usually with more dire consequences



humans are meant to have the highest lintelligence of all animals but even rabbits don't breed in a drought.
maybe we all have to go in a world lottery for a cull of say 50%


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## numbercruncher (21 April 2008)

treefrog said:


> humans are meant to have the highest lintelligence of all animals but even rabbits don't breed in a drought.
> maybe we all have to go in a world lottery for a cull of say 50%





Western nations are going to be fine, we barely even replace ourselves here so dont include us in the cull thanks.


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Western nations are going to be fine, we barely even replace ourselves here so dont include us in the cull thanks.




wot - even if we cause the most unfixable problems?


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## disarray (21 April 2008)

such as?


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## numbercruncher (21 April 2008)

treefrog said:


> wot - even if we cause the most unfixable problems?




Yup. Most our problems here _can_ be fixed anyways. 

If you live in a country that cant feed itself, your in deep doo doo, stop breeding, dont expect us responsible people to pick up the slack or make any sacrifices. I read in an earlier post that Thailand is asking people to eat less rice, so how long can that work, up until people get one grain each ?

China has worked it out (1 Child policy), why cant all these other foolish countries/cultures/religions work it out ?

If War doesnt sort us out, mother nature will im sure


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

disarray said:


> such as?




why would i suspect that retort is confrontational. However will post a few that pop to mind if you are having trouble 

AIDS  refugees  Antarctica  resource depletion  Biological Diversity  sovereignty  Climate Change  Militant Religion  Torture  Cold War  Military growth  Unemployment United Nations Ocean pollution  Urbanization 
Grog fags and "illegal" drugs,  Ozone layer damage  War Pollution  Economic Imbalance  Water Problems  radioactivity,  world economic system


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## Dezza (21 April 2008)

There was speculation that China may abandon the 1 child policy due to the increase male population in comparison to females. The Chinese prefer males over females and are therefore aborting a lot of the female foetuses in order to keep their namesake and family pride. 

If this happens, we're in trouble. Peter Costello's 'one for the nation' comment might be slowly working in Australia as well. 

More mouths to feed, not enough feed for the mouths. 

Info on 1 Child Policy story from SBS last month: http://news.sbs.com.au/worldnewsaustralia/china_may_change_onechild_policy_541917


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## disarray (21 April 2008)

china can get away with it because they are a disciplined culture with strong leadership enforced with heavy punishment. you'd never be able to enforce something like that in africa where is there is rarely any stable government to make laws at all.



			
				treefrog said:
			
		

> AIDS refugees Antarctica resource depletion Biological Diversity sovereignty Climate Change Militant Religion Torture Cold War Military growth Unemployment United Nations Ocean pollution Urbanization
> Grog fags and "illegal" drugs, Ozone layer damage War Pollution Economic Imbalance Water Problems radioactivity, world economic system




are you for real???


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## stargazer (21 April 2008)

There is no food shortage in the world there is an abundance of food.  There is just alot of overweight greedy people that could do with sharing it.

Cheers
SG


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

disarray said:


> are you for real???




there ya go, didn't expect anything constructive

probably best tho' getting too far off topic


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## numbercruncher (21 April 2008)

stargazer said:


> There is no food shortage in the world there is an abundance of food.




Do you have some proof of that statement ? Seems there is a growing shortage, just google it !

I do agree with your sentiment that there is also no shortage of fatties who could eat less and share more, but it enevitably leads to everything being finite, eventually we wont be able to produce more food, well it looks like we are producing much less already thanks to drought and Biofuels etc.

I still dont get this Global socialist thing many are alluding too, Australians are reasonbly responsible, having on average on two Children per family but folks are suggesting we continually tone down our lifestyles to defacto support people whom have like 10 children ? Where does it stop, when we are all eating rice crackers and water ?


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## Kimosabi (21 April 2008)

I wonder if the food shortages have anything to do with this:

*Georgia Guidestones*







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones


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## Sir Burr (21 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> China has worked it out (1 Child policy), why cant all these other foolish countries/cultures/religions work it out ?
> 
> If War doesnt sort us out, mother nature will im sure




See 4 Corners tonight? I think this story has been on before?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/s2219617.htm

Chinese parents like boys to carry on their family so girls are aborted. Oversupply of boys, who are they to marry? Maybe that will reduce population further.

Also, the 1 child policy has caused trafficing in children. Over the single child, they get fined so the 2 child is sold (A$500-A$2000) off if the parents can't afford the fine.


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## questionall_42 (21 April 2008)

Sir Burr said:


> See 4 Corners tonight? I think this story has been on before?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/s2219617.htm
> 
> ...




Note: the one child policy in China is only applicable in urban centres. The rural populations (about 60-70% of the population) are entitled to breed to their hearts content. The one child policy has had an impact on dereasing China's population growth, but it is still increasing significantly since the policy was implemented.


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## disarray (21 April 2008)

alright treefrog, i'll bite



treefrog said:


> AIDS  refugees  Antarctica  resource depletion  Biological Diversity  sovereignty  Climate Change  Militant Religion  Torture  Cold War  Military growth  Unemployment United Nations Ocean pollution  Urbanization Grog fags and "illegal" drugs,  Ozone layer damage  War Pollution  Economic Imbalance  Water Problems  radioactivity,  world economic system




aids - originated in africa, medical advances in treatment coming from where? oh yeah, western civilisation

refugees - blame the unstable host country, not the west who is taking them in (at GREAT social and financial cost)

antarctica - what about it? australia is quite forceful in defending southern waters from exploitation

resource depletion - the chinese and indians are doing quite well in catching up, but yes, america is over the top in resource usage

biological diversity - 99% of species that were alive are now extinct and mother nature has given us 5 distinct extinction periods that culled up to 90% of ALL biological diversity on planet earth. we are not a patch on her.

sovereignity - yeah there is still colonial messes to clean up but the inability to resolve them isn't the fault of the west, its the fault of the people who won't negotiate solutions.

climate change - mother nature again. saw a good doco about a possible coming ice age because of artic melting (a cycle which pre-dates industrialisation by quite some time). we don't know enough about climaology yet to be making definitive statements.

militant religion - so its our fault people blow themselves up on buses because of the misrepresentation of the teachings of a 6th century paedophiliac warlord? sure.

torture - as old as civilisation and sometimes practiced in the animal kingdom. but amazing thing, its actually outlawed in western civilisation (american dodgyness aside)

cold war - what about it? its over. looks pretty resolved to me

meh i'm bored now and couldn't be bothered to refute the rest but coming up with a bunch of stuff then going "yeah all this stuff is unsolvable and the fault of western civiliation" is rubbish. flagellate yourself all you want but i'm not buying into your cultural guilt trip. omg western civilisation caused unsolvable radioactivity!!1


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## Smurf1976 (21 April 2008)

Biofuels.

Let's say you are a fairly typical office worker living in a major city. Today you got up, had a shower, drove to and from work.

OK, now you ate roughly 10 or so MJ today.

Your hot shower used about 33 MJ of fuel at the power station.

Your computer running and 4 fluoro lights in the office running for 8 hours used about 40 MJ of fuel into the power station.

And your car driven 25km each way ate about 180 MJ of petrol.

Then you got home and cooked a meal. Another 20 or so MJ of fuel burnt at the power station - that's far more energy than the food you cooked actually contains.

You do the math. If we're going to switch to even 5% biofuels then that's an awful lot of starving people. 

Here in Australia, we could completely starve everyone in NSW, ACT, Vic, Qld, SA, WA and NT and, after on-farm fuel use is accounted for, we still won't have enough ethanol to replace fossil fuels in Tasmania. Hmm... Starve practically the whole country and still not have enough to run a place with 28 hydro schemes and less than half a million people. Not what I would call a sensible plan.

Biofuels are a sensible use of agricultural wastes etc but that's it. Turning huge amoutns of corn or wheat into a trivial amout of petrol extender doesn't stack up unless you've got a food surplus to start with - which we did until a handfull of ethanol plants were built.


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

disarray said:


> alright treefrog, i'll bite
> 
> 
> 
> ...




dis, if you are going to tackle the term paper you need much more application - many of those responses are incomplete and/or present only a biased capitalist viewpoint and you failed to address all issues - all in all a paper showing a thought process in some disarray - only four marks out a possible ten.


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## disarray (22 April 2008)

uh yeah its an internet message board man  point is you are just running off whatever you don't like the state of then saying its all western civilisations fault. i think you'll find its a bit more complicated than that.


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## robert toms (22 April 2008)

I remember reading that in Rome,I think in the time of Pompey and republic,that grain supplies from North Africa were stifled by pirates etc.Rome could not feed its population,so an edict came down that farmers could only put 10% of their land to growing grapes,the rest to grain.Grapes were being grown to the detriment of the population.
Wine grapes were being grown  predominantly,resulting in reliance on grain imports.

Remember when Yeltsin's laissez-faire democracy was in favour with the carpetbaggers...both western and home grown.
There were literally people starving in Russia.
Now the west complain about Putin's controlled democracy.Putin is very popular and I believe everyone is getting their tucker.Where does that come in the hierarchy of needs?

Cannot rely on the free market to feed people...The more things change the more they stay the same !


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## treefrog (22 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> I remember reading that in Rome,I think in the time of Pompey and republic,that grain supplies from North Africa were stifled by pirates etc.Rome could not feed its population,so an edict came down that farmers could only put 10% of their land to growing grapes,the rest to grain.Grapes were being grown to the detriment of the population.
> Wine grapes were being grown  predominantly,resulting in reliance on grain imports.
> 
> Remember when Yeltsin's laissez-faire democracy was in favour with the carpetbaggers...both western and home grown.
> ...




that must have been the start of socialism rob, capitalists would just have eaten the grapes - much heathier than grain


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## treefrog (22 April 2008)

disarray said:


> uh yeah its an internet message board man  point is you are just running off whatever you don't like the state of then saying its all western civilisations fault. i think you'll find its a bit more complicated than that.



agree fully with the complicated bit - but was angling (devil's advocate) for a bit more reasoned thought to a coupla posts just prior to you joining discussion - cheers
ps only jewelry item i own and wear (less these days) is a 22ct gold dollar symbol


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## robert toms (22 April 2008)

Tree frog you are right...as history shows the capitalists or ruling elite would say let them eat cake.
But in Rome you had to give them bread and circuses.Has anything changed since then?


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## Aussiejeff (23 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> Tree frog you are right...*as history shows the capitalists or ruling elite would say let them eat cake*.
> But in Rome you had to give them bread and circuses.Has anything changed since then?




The Roman Empire along with it's "elite" rulers were crushed by masses of poor Barbarians?
The "elite" French Royalty and ruling class lost their heads en-masse to starving peasants?
etc..etc..etc..


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## robert toms (23 April 2008)

The French elite lost their heads...but the Roman Empire was very enduring...has any other mob lasted as long?
In the end we all end up kaput!


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## Buddy (23 April 2008)

1) Hey Treefrog, why do you slag capitalists on a share forum? The're not the only ones to cause human misery blah blah. There are plenty of other categories of "people" who beat the sh.. out of others. And you should know who i am referring to blah blah.

2) Smurf and Disarray have got it pretty spot on.

3) Lets face it, the major problems the world faces now is caused by too many fu..ers, both in the true sense of the word, and the other sense of the word.

4) The guy who put on his gravestone Max 500,000,000 is probably about correct.  The only thing that remains is who is going to be members of that club.  It sure aint Africa!

5) And re the 4 Corners story on the stolen children in China; Does this mean that they are going to have a "stolen generation" in the future and will have to say sorry?  Oops, sorry for being a sicko.

6) Ah stuff it, nature will take care of it all.  First global warming will get rid of a fair mob by drowning, food shortages, followed by war, famine and pestilence.  Then the next ice age (which by the way is probably upon this planet sooner than any of you think - like, as Paris would say, maybe commencing in our childrens' or grandchildrens' lifetime) will top off the rest.  What we need to do in Oz is put up a big fence, get some really really big guns, and work out a survival plan.  How come none of the arty farty chardonnay sipping (not that there is anything wrong with Chardonnay - just guzzling is better than sipping!) bleeding heart communist socialist head up their ar.. too much to say blah blah attendees at the 2020 diddnt tackle that issue.

There's no going back. Its a matter of survival of the fitest now. And Michael Moore is a turd.


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## treefrog (23 April 2008)

Buddy said:


> 1) Hey Treefrog, why do you slag capitalists on a share forum? The're not the only ones to cause human misery blah blah. There are plenty of other categories of "people" who beat the sh.. out of others. And you should know who i am referring to blah blah.
> 
> 2) Smurf and Disarray have got it pretty spot on.
> 
> ...



buddy - I'm a silly bugga really - just giving a few ideas/opinions a nuge now and then in the offchange we may get a bit more thought and the odd realistic solution
as for capitalits on a stock forum wherever did you get that idea? 98% would not even know what a capitalist was - try the forex market (still pretty unregulated there) may find a few


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## Buddy (23 April 2008)

Hey frog. OK. LOL, your probably right about the forex.
Likewise, just stirrin.....


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## numbercruncher (23 April 2008)

> TORONTO ”” World Vision, one of the world's biggest humanitarian organizations, says it can no longer provide food to 1.5 million of the 7.5 million poor it fed last year.




http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5ieGYCSjqedH6A5kD4lKe6r_h7Kpg


I suspect it will get alot worse amid soaring fuel prices, can bet the endangered wildlife of Africa will become alot more "endangered" as nutrition is sought


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## Buddy (24 April 2008)

And so it goes......................

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23591765-601,00.html

It's all comming together, both on the ASF and rest of the world.  The threads are linking together.

Terrorists, Pro-Chinese, Anti-Chinese, Iran has Nukes, Israel has Nukes,War, Gloom and Doom, Global Warming, Oceans rising, Global Cooling, Ice Age, Peak Oil, Oil Inflation, No oil, Good oil, Hyper Inflation, Hyper Deflation, Matters Green, Matters Brown, Crime, Drought, Famine, Pestilence, Bush is Bad, KRudd is Good, Howard is Bad, Deputy PM (what's her name) is Good, Bull Markets, Bear Markets, Matters Astronomical...................

The planets are aligning. 
We'll all be roooned said Hanrahan.
Cats and dogs doing unnatural things........... (Ghost Busters)
Price of Gold going down (just today).
The end is nigh. Matters of biblical proportions.

Buy Gold. Buy more Gold. By even more Gold. Sell all my shares, buy Gold. Get rid of paper money, buy Gold.

Whew! Need to have a drink!:bonk:


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## numbercruncher (24 April 2008)

Interesting link Buddy ! Starts with rice then perhaps the banning of MCD's supersize mes etc ? 



> *US shops ration food for first time*





Might see a resurgence of victory gardens at this rate hey ?


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## Whiskers (25 April 2008)

Just watching Today on NBC. 

They quote a couple of store chains in the US limiting the sale of rice and even flour... but aparently it's just because of media hype that some people are wanting to buy big heaps.

Here in Aus the big chains are squeezing many growers to the wall over price and few youngsters are wanting to stay on the land... so I think it's getting economical to plant my vege garden up again.


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## Tukker (25 April 2008)

Whiskers said:


> Just watching Today on NBC.
> 
> They quote a couple of store chains in the US limiting the sale of rice and even flour... but aparently it's just because of media hype that some people are wanting to buy big heaps.
> 
> Here in Aus the big chains are squeezing many growers to the wall over price and few youngsters are wanting to stay on the land... so I think it's getting economical to plant my vege garden up again.




Yea, i think its a great idea.  Bring on the tomatoes, Zucchini, and steak harvest.


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## numbercruncher (25 April 2008)

Advice from the WSJ , Hoard food 




> Load Up the Pantry
> 
> I don't want to alarm anybody, but maybe it's time for Americans to start stockpiling food.
> 
> No, this is not a drill.




http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120881517227532621.html

(just realised a thread had been started with this story !)


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## numbercruncher (25 April 2008)

Interesting country by country breakdown of the effects of the World food crisis ....



> The food crisis begins to bite
> 
> Rioting in Haiti. Rationing in America. Queues in Egypt. Protests in Afghanistan. As the price of food continues to soar, the impact is being felt by people around the globe




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/the-food-crisis-begins-to-bite-815437.html


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## Spanning Tree (26 April 2008)

> Australia's birthrate of 12.02 per 1,000 at the time of compilation was 165th in the world. Then check out the top 10 with birthrates all over 40 per 1,000!! ALL are almost without exception very poor African countries, with some of the worst living conditions and lowest life expectancies on the planet. I suspect when populations are in a desperate state, they will actually breed MORE as the death rate rises.



This is true. It is because producing children in chaotic, poor countries is a form of insurance since children can be used for labor on farms and also children may help the parents when they are older, making them akin to a pension.

This is why in Australia fertility rate is so low. Producing children has no actuarial benefit. Rather, children are only produced for pleasure. The problem is that children compete with other luxury goods for pleasure, such as Ferraris and holidays, which further reduce levels of fertility.



> I take it that people starving is OK if we make profits? Capitalism gone too far?



If enough of us are greedy enough to make profits by selling food at high prices, through competition the price would go down.

One of the factors leading to high food prices is the popularity of commodity investments.

The growing economies of India and China is also pushing food prices up.



> i second the "wall off africa" motion.



If Africans are breeding too much and Australians are breeding too little and if there is a scarcity of both skilled and unskilled labor in Australia then economic theory suggests the best idea is to allow free flow of labor between Australia and Africa. Unskilled Africans can work picking fruits on Australian farms. This will increase food production as well.

Putting a wall up separating free flow of labor is a form of Communism since you are not letting the free market allocate labor inputs to its most productive use but rather you are using central planning.



> Western nations are going to be fine, we barely even replace ourselves here so dont include us in the cull thanks.



I notice that people who advocate culling of the human population always find some convenient excuse to exclude themselves.



> If you live in a country that cant feed itself, your in deep doo doo, stop breeding, dont expect us responsible people to pick up the slack or make any sacrifices.



This argument assumes a fixed total amount of food divided among the population. The larger the population, the less food each person gets. However, the size of the population may affect the total amount of food there is because more people can work on the farms to produce more food. This idea of finite wealth being unfairly distributed was used by communists to argue that the capitalist class was taking too much and leaving too little for the working class.



> Chinese parents like boys to carry on their family so girls are aborted. Oversupply of boys, who are they to marry? Maybe that will reduce population further.



Isn't there an oversupply of females in Europe? The answer is trade. If Chinese males are rich enough, it'll be more likely.

Another way global oversupply of males can be fixed is with legalization of polygamy.


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## numbercruncher (26 April 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> Another way global oversupply of males can be fixed is with legalization of polygamy.




LOL - your getting at reverse polygamy ?

More males than females, so your suggesting females should have a " few " husbands.

Interesting fantasy i Guess :

Im thinking countries with massive over supplies of males will probably have the highest rates of homosexuality or lifetime bachelors.



> Isn't there an oversupply of females in Europe? The answer is trade. If Chinese males are rich enough, it'll be more likely.




Somehow I dont see reams of European lasses fancying the Idea of running off with Mandarin speaking rich guys in the interest of " trade " , we are more interested in concepts such as love in our culture thanks. Im sure you could hook up some " trades " with third world countries though.


----------



## eclipse (26 April 2008)

Rice is the food critcal to the needs of billions, with the massive spike in the cost.  What will the world food aid organisation feed the starving people now?


----------



## disarray (26 April 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> If Africans are breeding too much and Australians are breeding too little and if there is a scarcity of both skilled and unskilled labor in Australia then economic theory suggests the best idea is to allow free flow of labor between Australia and Africa. Unskilled Africans can work picking fruits on Australian farms. This will increase food production as well.




yeah but then we are stuck with a large african population in the middle of our society with all the negatives of crime, unwillingness or inability to assimilate, and higher levels of welfare dependence. i'd prefer more expensive fruit thanks. economic theory is great but i'd prefer to live according to social theory.


----------



## disarray (26 April 2008)

as a way to combat the skills shortage i think it would be a good idea to have a special fast-tracked visa made available to english citizens who can score 9/10 on the TOEFL test and have a bit of money behind them. there are loads of anglo brits (and other europeans) who are eager to escape their homelands because of what sh1tty social and immigration policies have done to their countries so we should open the doors wide to let them in.

so middle class, educated, fluent citizens from a similar culture or poor, uneducated, tribal citizens from nations that have no stability and little to no civilisation at all. which do you think would be better for the long term prosperity and stability of our society?


----------



## Spanning Tree (26 April 2008)

> Im thinking countries with massive over supplies of males will probably have the highest rates of homosexuality or lifetime bachelors.



You're assuming that countries are hermetically sealed containers. I think in a globalized world we should see greater movement of people. For example, Russia has a huge oversupply of females because men died in many battles. As a result, many women in Russia advertise themselves to Western men.




> yeah but then we are stuck with a large african population in the middle of our society with all the negatives of crime, unwillingness or inability to assimilate, and higher levels of welfare dependence. i'd prefer more expensive fruit thanks. economic theory is great but i'd prefer to live according to social theory.



Are you assuming that African people are more prone to crime? The idea is assimilation is problematic because assimilation I assume is the ability of an individual to conform to the culture of a country. In other words, assimilation is a communist idea since it involves the individual giving up his freedom and conforming to the ideals of the community. Nevertheless, consider that most Australians don't have university degrees and most Australians buy Toyotas. Therefore, a doctor who drives a Holden is not assimilating because his characteristics are not average.

On the issue of welfare dependence the current system in Australia is that if you don't have a job you are eligible for Newstart Allowance from Centrelink. However, during this period you must look for a job and attend Centrelink programs that help you get a job. The system is set up so that in most cases getting a job is worth it because you don't get much from Centrelink (about $400 per fortnight) and you are hassled by them constantly, so you effectively work for your welfare. Also, is there any evidence to suggest that African people are more likely to be dependent on welfare than non-Africans? Even if they are, statistics show that men are more prone to crime than women, so should all men be deported? If you believe the ANZACs fought for individual freedom, then that includes the freedom of the individual to conduct his business how he please, hiring whomever he wants. Plus it includes the rights of individuals to be treated as individuals rather than being lumped up into a category so that he or she is responsible for the actions of another, e.g. you or I being blamed because men commit more crime than females and we are male yet we have committed no crime. Similarly, one particular African person may be the best fit for a particular job in Queensland but if you take statistics and find that African people are not as good on average at fruit picking than say Asians then you miss out on the opportunity to hire the best person for the job because you are conducting your analysis using continents as a heuristic rather than considering each individual on his or her merits.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 April 2008)

This thread is starting to get wildly off topic lol ....


Australia simply doesnt need large scale or even small scale unskilled immigration, the solution is simple, workaway visas , millions from our pacific neighbours would love to come out for a few years and earn some hard currency, could also be viewed as an " Interview " for citizenship


----------



## Mofra (26 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Australia simply doesnt need large scale or even small scale unskilled immigration, the solution is simple, workaway visas , millions from our pacific neighbours would love to come out for a few years and earn some hard currency, could also be viewed as an " Interview " for citizenship



This could actually work well for specified visa where people are sponsed (as they are now in small numbers) to fill shortages in unskilled labour areas that are heavily time dependant, such as fruitpicking. These roles can't be "delayed" until more favourable market forces dictate they can proceed, the window of opportunity means we often need large numbers of people for a short period of time at a very specific time and place.

I will admit that I have been a little swayed by my wine addiction and would be devastated if (for example) the Heathcote Shiraz's are dusty for a vintage if people can't be found to pick the grapes at exactly the right time


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## metric (26 April 2008)

by the look at the ammount of fat people walking down our main street on pension day/s a food shortage may be a good thing !!

why are afluent people skinnier than lower classes? is it about choice? not $$$? 

is food really too dear in the west? i dont think so....


----------



## numbercruncher (26 April 2008)

I read an interesting little anecdote the other day, The USA is a nation where the poor are fat and the rich are thin, applicable here too perhaps ?

Eating healthy is more expensive for sure, but way I see it is, pay up front for healthy food or pay down the track for health problems!


----------



## Spanning Tree (26 April 2008)

> why are afluent people skinnier than lower classes? is it about choice? not $$$?



Rich people can afford expensive healthy food like caviar or sushi. Poor people usually eat carb-rich cheap foods that are highly processed like pizza and pasta.

Furthermore, rich people can afford gym and active entertainment like skiing and mountaineering while the poor usually go for the cheap alternative of watching TV.


----------



## Julia (26 April 2008)

metric said:


> by the look at the ammount of fat people walking down our main street on pension day/s a food shortage may be a good thing !!
> 
> why are afluent people skinnier than lower classes? is it about choice? not $$$?
> 
> is food really too dear in the west? i dont think so....



Affluent people are usually better educated .  They are more likely to be aware of good nutrition and will rate maintaining good physical health - sound nutrition + exercise - up there with maintaining their financial health.

Cost will have some effect, I guess.  It's going to be more expensive to buy fresh salmon and good quality vegetables than Two Minute Noodles.

But sometimes I look at the trolleys of obese people and they are simply full of rubbish - cartons of fizzy drinks, lots of cake and biscuits, frozen chips, sausages.  Maybe a bag of apples if you're lucky.
Those dollars could equally have been spent on some fresh vegetables and fish.


----------



## Spanning Tree (26 April 2008)

> Ah stuff it, nature will take care of it all.



The idea of nature being the source of morality or how civilization should be structured is, in my opinion, a scary thought.

This is because I know of a pedophile on the Internet (named Lindsay Ashford) who believed that he had the right to molest children because he felt a natural desire within himself to have sex with them. Who knows, maybe he goes to developing countries like Russia to feed his desires.

The point is that our natural human instincts to plunder, rape, molest, and murder are things I'd rather not live with.


----------



## disarray (26 April 2008)

rape, murder and molestation of children are not "natural" human impulses but behavioural aberrations. if they were natural society wouldn't legislate against them (as it has since the 10 commandments)

oh yeah, fatty gif attached


----------



## metric (26 April 2008)

my point is that food is cheap. for the same $ as a fat person spends, i could buy a pretty good healthy trolley full of food. 
some examples;
pasta-$1 for 500gm
tinned salmon $2.50 for  250gm
tinned tuna $1 for 250 gm
fresh fruit in season
frozen vegies
payless brown bread
real butter in paper
whole chooks (cut up at home)
fresh vegies in season
grow garden to supplement 
nz frozen fish
budget steak (rump generally)
etc.
food is cheap. packaged food is expensive. expensive food is expensive. lack of grey matter is very expensive...


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## Aussiejeff (26 April 2008)

metric said:


> by the look at the ammount of fat people walking down our main street on pension day/s a food shortage may be a good thing !!
> 
> *why are afluent people skinnier than lower classes?* is it about choice? not $$$?
> 
> is food really too dear in the west? i dont think so....




Ahem. I wasn't aware we had a _"class"_ based society here??? 

Your generalisation that "affluent" people are skinnier than "the lower classes" would not hold any weight (no pun intended) in TRULY poor countries in Africa, India etc. REALLY poor people in those places tend to be skeletal - not like the "nouveau poor" of New York or Australia who can still afford a half decent meal three times a say. There is poor and there is P.O.O.R.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you would find there are plenty of "affluent" people in Australia with type 2 diabetes et all who wish they COULD shed a stack of kilos, but find the endless rounds of dinner parties where rich food and drinks predominate are too much for them to handle!

I agree that Australian diets are not ideal to say the least, but it is generally the "affluent" who control the media & advertising of crap foods. Maybe THEY could forego some revenue to promote a better lifestyle and lead by example?

AJ


----------



## Julia (26 April 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Ahem. I wasn't aware we had a _"class"_ based society here???



Weren't you, AJ?  How naive of you.




> Your generalisation that "affluent" people are skinnier than "the lower classes" would not hold any weight (no pun intended) in TRULY poor countries in Africa, India etc. REALLY poor people in those places tend to be skeletal - not like the "nouveau poor" of New York or Australia who can still afford a half decent meal three times a say. There is poor and there is P.O.O.R.



Correct.  But we are talking about the obesity epidemic here in Australia.





> I'm sure if you looked hard enough you would find there are plenty of "affluent" people in Australia with type 2 diabetes et all who wish they COULD shed a stack of kilos, but find the endless rounds of dinner parties where rich food and drinks predominate are too much for them to handle!



Oh, give me a break!  Poor babies.  Just forced into an endless round of fascinating dinner parties where they are force fed rich food.  
What utter nonsense.





> I agree that Australian diets are not ideal to say the least, but it is generally the "affluent" who control the media & advertising of crap foods. Maybe THEY could forego some revenue to promote a better lifestyle and lead by example?
> 
> 
> AJ



What about personal responsibility?  No one forces crap food down people's throats!  There is enough nutritional information out there these days for almost everyone to be aware of what constitutes a healthy diet.


----------



## Macquack (26 April 2008)

metric said:


> my point is that food is cheap. for the same $ as a fat person spends, i could buy a pretty good healthy trolley full of food.
> some examples;
> pasta-$1 for 500gm
> tinned salmon $2.50 for  250gm
> ...




Are you "metric" or more correctly "imperial".
I did'nt think this was a cooking forum.
What's you point here?
"Food is cheap" relatively speaking, up to the point where it consumes all you income.
Go and ask some pensioners if they think food is cheap, you superior twit.


----------



## treefrog (26 April 2008)

metric said:


> my point is that food is cheap. for the same $ as a fat person spends, i could buy a pretty good healthy trolley full of food.
> some examples;
> pasta-$1 for 500gm
> tinned salmon $2.50 for  250gm
> ...



g'day metric,
how do you figure pasta and bread are healthy??
the rest of your list, no quibbles at all provided your tin of tuna doesn't contain canola oil which most do.


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## metric (27 April 2008)

macquack.

whats up your beak? and how do you know im not a pensioner...?

everything is cheap or expensive relatively speaking. you make no point at all. all you have done is post a flamming reply. 

pensioners whom dont own their own homes find rent a bigger problem than food prices. food is a cost. but so it transport, petrol, power, rates, phone, etc.

there was no need for your nastiness quack. its obvious to all what sort of 'wit' you are...but not so obvious as to why? ....mm


----------



## numbercruncher (27 April 2008)

My pet peeve is Fat Kids ..... Fat adults isnt so bad, that personal resposibility.


Parents who give them a shocking start to life are effecting everything they can be and probably shaving a decade or more off the ends of there lifes. It effects everything from their academic to sporting performance to mental health and behaviour.

We dont let parents Give kids cigarettes or booze, we dont tolerate parents that bash kids, why do we tolerate parents that let their kids get so fat that its robbing them of a " normal " life ?


----------



## Julia (27 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> My pet peeve is Fat Kids ..... Fat adults isnt so bad, that personal resposibility.
> 
> 
> Parents who give them a shocking start to life are effecting everything they can be and probably shaving a decade or more off the ends of there lifes. It effects everything from their academic to sporting performance to mental health and behaviour.
> ...




Numbercruncher, if you think about it, how often do these fat kids have slim parents?  Almost never.  It's mostly a multi-generational problem, where the parents are ignorant or just don't care, have poor diets and place a low value on exercise/general health, so obviously their kids will be the same.
Plus, of course, the overwhelming trend for children to sit down in their leisure time in front of small and large screens.


----------



## Julia (27 April 2008)

Macquack said:


> Are you "metric" or more correctly "imperial".
> I did'nt think this was a cooking forum.
> What's you point here?
> "Food is cheap" relatively speaking, up to the point where it consumes all you income.
> Go and ask some pensioners if they think food is cheap, you superior twit.



This is rather unnecessarily rude, isn't it?
Imo Metric's post was quite in context of the discussion.


----------



## Macquack (27 April 2008)

metric said:


> macquack.
> 
> whats up your beak? and how do you know im not a pensioner...?
> 
> ...




Metric, my point is this forum "World food shortage" is about the macro-economic consequenses, not your specific micro-economic view.

I had a crack at you for your previous sarcastic post linking the world food shortage to obese people. "by the look at the ammount of fat people walking down our main street on pension day/s a food shortage may be a good thing !!"
Your quote
"why are afluent people skinnier than lower classes? is it about choice? not $$$?"
That has to be a classic over-generalisation.
Sorry for calling you a twit, but I still think you are superior.


----------



## metric (27 April 2008)

i dont think im superior at all. im overweight!!! beeeeerrrrrr!!! lol. but i choose GOOD beer....!lol

people make bad decisions on food, and it hasnt anything to do with price. its grey matter, or lack of reading the myriad of health stuff available.

its well known, on average, afluent people are leaner than the poor. it is decision making not $ that makes people in the west fat or skinny.

i apologise for my shot at you also...


----------



## Macquack (27 April 2008)

metric said:


> i dont think im superior at all. im overweight!!! beeeeerrrrrr!!! lol. but i choose GOOD beer....!lol
> 
> people make bad decisions on food, and it hasnt anything to do with price. its grey matter, or lack of reading the myriad of health stuff available.
> 
> ...




Cheers Metric, you have proven be a gentleman and scholar and not superior at all. Are we now buddies?


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## metric (27 April 2008)

Macquack said:


> Cheers Metric, you have proven be a gentleman and scholar and not superior at all. Are we now buddies?





buddies it is!! have a "3 ravens, blonde" on me!


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## SM Junkie (27 April 2008)

An article in Saturdays West Australian paper discussing world food shortage starting to hit US. Some big retailers are starting to ration large bags of rice.  It also stated that 40 nations have put a ban on food exports.

Now looking at another article in which there will be agressive exploration for oil and gas fields of WA as "our oil self-sufficiency has been in decline..every barrel we don't produce is a barrel we have to import".  I guess the same may very well apply to food.

Put together I'm thinking it is highly probable that we could see a pull back in globalisation. Perhaps Australia needs to consider being more self sufficient?



Buddy said:


> 1)   What we need to do in Oz is put up a big fence, get some really really big guns, and work out a survival plan.




Guess Buddy is not off mark with his comment.

I hope it's not to late for our farmers who have suffered dramatically as a result of imported products (thanks to our large retailers).  Hopefully our nation can continue to support our farmers in our buying habits, because one day they may just pay a vital role in our quality of life.


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## numbercruncher (27 April 2008)

Im convinced we will see pull backs in globalisation, more nationalistic policies and closer bonds between certain groups of countries, the West should sit sweet, we are the worlds food bowl really  Just need to kick that nasty oil addiction.


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## nioka (27 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Im convinced we will see pull backs in globalisation, more nationalistic policies and closer bonds between certain groups of countries, the West should sit sweet, we are the worlds food bowl really  Just need to kick that nasty oil addiction.



 We are not the worlds food bowl by a long shot. We are only one of the worlds largest exporters of food because of our small population. There are many other countries who leave us for dead when it comes to production.


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## numbercruncher (27 April 2008)

nioka said:


> We are not the worlds food bowl by a long shot. We are only one of the worlds largest exporters of food because of our small population. There are many other countries who leave us for dead when it comes to production.




We, The West, are the worlds food bowl, Im not saying specifically Australia.

Yes other Countries produce more food but they have a damn sight more mouths to feed (unsustainably so), ie/ Take the Wests excess production offline and I bet 10s of millions will starve.


----------



## numbercruncher (27 April 2008)

Interesting little read ....



> The poor world, it is said, is being torn apart by a food crisis. Parts are. Those who aren't yet affected are speculative because they aren't safe either as food prices have been rising all over the world.
> 
> According to "Rising Food Prices: Policy Options and World Bank Response," increases in global wheat prices reached 181 percent over the 36 months leading up to February 2008, and overall global food prices increased by 83 percent.
> 
> ...




http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=382424&rel_no=1

Wow that last bit in bold is scary, obviously if correct, we have been dipping into reserves for two years now, food looks like a bigger Issue than oil, yet food production relys on oil, all going to end in tears im afraid.

Been browsing around various websites and forums etc, and Im amazed at the number of people who say they are hoarding food.

Game on soon me thinks.


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## Smurf1976 (27 April 2008)

Globalisation has been tried before. It didn't work.

Stupidity = Repeatedly doing the same thing expecting a different result.


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## Mofra (27 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Interesting little read ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now you say you are a property bear - is that above ground only? It sounds like there might be quite a lucrative market in renting out underground "bunker space" once the oil/food/no more reality TV riots start


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## numbercruncher (28 April 2008)

I was just reading our American cousins provide half the Worlds food aid and only last week released 200m worth of emergency wheat to developing countries.

Isnt it high time that some other nations started taking some of the responsibility, with the US rolling into recession I can see the very charitable nature of our American cousins being severly undermined.

I see plenty of West hating nations rolling in cash and blaming us for everything but doing nothing.


----------



## Aussiejeff (28 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> I was just reading our American cousins provide half the Worlds food aid and only last week released 200m worth of emergency wheat to developing countries.
> 
> Isnt it high time that some other nations started taking some of the responsibility, with the US rolling into recession I can see the very charitable nature of our American cousins being severly undermined.
> 
> I see plenty of West hating nations rolling in cash and blaming us for everything but doing nothing.




Unfortunately, the focus for many rapidly developing nations from now on (eg China, India, Pakistan, Russia, Iran etc) appears to be more inward-looking ie: build up your own resource reserves first rather than give it to aid programs. Even the US is pretty good at stockpiling "stuff" in case the you-know-what hits the fan. Australia's reserves in comparison are pretty pathetic. However, we provide plenty of succour to the world (in the form of raw food and mineral resources) already through normal trade relations. In general, the future outlook for world aid looks pretty grim to me, given the sudden lurch into worldwide food disruptions and economic uncertainties everywhere.

No easy answers either since every nation's leaders want to primarily look after their own "barrow" before worrying about others. Unless world economies can enter boom times again in short order (personally I can't actually see that occuring any time soon) then international politics may well display a more "selfish" tone from now on.

AJ


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## 77TRADER77 (28 April 2008)

What World Food Shortage?
Its only that the Chinese, now more affluent, are consuming 10 times more meat and more grains and have greater dietary demands now they have the money.
Its Food Distribution thats the problem now according to scientists.
Cost of food is causing many of these problems.
Investors in the US dont want to invest in their dollar nor their their companies expected to have further crippled profits or losses.
So investors are investing in OIL and FOOD SUPPLY.Theyre not investing in Gold because the World Bank can manipulate that price, UNTIL the demand takes that equation from their control. 
Warren Buffet was already one of the first to get in to FOOD investment when I was looking to buy AWB at $2-40 months ago.
Truly my heart goes out to those in need of basic foodstuffs.
The Solution to the Food Crisis and the Environment is simple-reduce the World Population with each couple responsibly only producing their own number. World population would slow with food and wealth and natural resources aplenty for all. 
This is just the humble opinion of the writer keen to listen to others opinions.
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=382424&rel_no=1


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## Spanning Tree (28 April 2008)

> Yes other Countries produce more food but they have a damn sight more mouths to feed (unsustainably so), ie/ Take the Wests excess production offline and I bet 10s of millions will starve.



If by West you mean developed countries then yes most of the food comes from the developed countries. I think the reason is because of agricultural subsidies.




> I see plenty of West hating nations rolling in cash and blaming us for everything but doing nothing.



Are you prepared to name names?



> The Solution to the Food Crisis and the Environment is simple-reduce the World Population with each couple responsibly only producing their own number. World population would slow with food and wealth and natural resources aplenty for all.



Each couple only producing their own number? You mean, two children per couple? If you want population reduction the best number of children is zero. You preach it, but do you practice it? I'm not going to have any children, not because I think any children I produce will cause food shortage but because children are quite expensive.



> rape, murder and molestation of children are not "natural" human impulses but behavioural aberrations. if they were natural society wouldn't legislate against them (as it has since the 10 commandments)



So you think whether an impulse is natural or not depends on whether it is legal or illegal? Robbing a bank I would argue is pure animal instinct of greed working. It is nature.



> Ahem. I wasn't aware we had a "class" based society here???



I thought there was. Remember according to statistics, after John Howard came to power the polarization between rich and poor has gotten more pronounced. We also see further polarization in property prices. Here in Melbourne last year, rich inner city properties in Toorak and Malvern went up 50 per cent but in Frankston prices only went up by about 5 per cent, which is pretty close to inflation rate.



> Your generalisation that "affluent" people are skinnier than "the lower classes" would not hold any weight



I think I remember reading a Melbourne Uni publication saying that people in richer suburbs are leaner because they have access to parks, public transport, etc.




> Parents who give [fat kids] a shocking start to life are effecting everything they can be and probably shaving a decade or more off the ends of there lifes. It effects everything from their academic to sporting performance to mental health and behaviour.
> 
> We dont let parents Give kids cigarettes or booze, we dont tolerate parents that bash kids, why do we tolerate parents that let their kids get so fat that its robbing them of a " normal " life ?



Some people say parents who feed their children fatty food should be labelled child abusers.



> Im convinced we will see pull backs in globalisation, more nationalistic policies and closer bonds between certain groups of countries, the West should sit sweet, we are the worlds food bowl really



Isn't the world's largest exporter of rice Thailand? Maybe you classify Thailand as the West.


----------



## Djayness (28 April 2008)

Theres also a food shortage in my fridge....


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## Happy (30 April 2008)

> From ABC, 30 Apr. 08
> 
> CHINESE FARMLAND ACQUISITION THREATENS AUST MARKETS: AGFORCE
> 
> ...




If Australia goes for it, I can almost see invasion, should there be put any water restriction down the track.


----------



## Aussiejeff (30 April 2008)

Happy said:


> If Australia goes for it, I can almost see invasion, should there be put any water restriction down the track.




Captain RUDD: _"Prepare to repel all boarders!"_

First Mate GILLARD: _"Aye aye, Cap'n - err ... hang on Sir, with what shall I repel them?_ 

Captain RUDD: _"Beats me GILLARD! Try using yer head, lass!_ 

LOL



AJ


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## Temjin (30 April 2008)

It's funny though, when the mainstream news talk about food shortage crisis and how soft commodities have risen so much for the last few months, it is exactly this time that almost all soft and grain commodities have crashed in prices (except rice & corn) over the last 3-4 weeks.

For example, wheat reached a peak of roughly USD $1300 / 5000 bushels just before Mid March and now fallen to USD $790 today. That's like 40%drop in less than 2 months! From a technical point of view, it is largely oversold but no clear signals for buying yet despite the fundamentals.


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## Kauri (1 May 2008)

I hear they are marching in the streets of St Petersburg protesting the food prices, and that the masses are also assembling in Cheltenham..

  Cheers
............Kauri


----------



## numbercruncher (1 May 2008)

I also read that China and a few others are tearing around the Globe buying up farmland, I guess theyve worked out they cant grow food in toxic wastelands destroyed by unsustainable manufactoring practices.

I sure hope we dont flog off any of our farmland or water assets, shaping up to be some of the best assets around by the smell of things.


----------



## Whiskers (1 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> > Originally Posted by Happy
> > If Australia goes for it, I can almost see invasion, should there be put any water restriction down the track.
> 
> 
> ...






Yeah, water's a problem alright specally when... theres-a-hole-in-the-bucket dear liza. 

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/theres-a-hole-in-the-bucket/1053630970


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## Aussiejeff (6 May 2008)

Hmmm. This is one rather ominous result of the terrible devastation left by the cyclone in Burma ... from a Herald-Sun news item today.

_"The cyclone, which hit Burma's main rice-growing region, could also have consequences for the growing global food crisis. Jack de Groot, chief executive of Caritas Australia, said *the disaster would devastate Burma's rice supplies over the coming year*. 

"The affected area of the Irrawaddy Delta is the rice bowl of Burma, *the largest per-capita consumers of rice in the world,*'' he said. "This will have enormous impact on the supply of rice in Burma for the coming year.'' 

*Other countries in the region had already been experiencing rice shortages due to drought and increasing worldwide demand.*"_

A very sad situation unfolding over there, not helped at all by yet another Militaristic "Government" sticking it's head in the sand to try and save "face". Instead, they now have egg plastered all over their rotten faces and their people are going to suffer more for it. 


AJ


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## wayneL (6 May 2008)

Kauri said:


> I hear they are marching in the streets of St Petersburg protesting the food prices, and that the masses are also assembling in Cheltenham..
> 
> Cheers
> ............Kauri



That's only for the Jazz Festival. 

Brits will whinge, but they won't march unless it's really dire... or it looks like a queue.


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## Julia (6 May 2008)

We are all aware that the people in Zimbabwe are being kept alive by food aid programmes.   A journalist with many years in this area was discussing this in a recent radio interview.  He suggested that the majority of Zimbabweans do not actually understand that what food they do receive is from outside aid.  They assume it is coming from the great leader Mr Mugabe.
His suggestion was that if all outside aid was withheld, then the people would get rid of Mugabe in a heartbeat.


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## numbercruncher (6 May 2008)

Julia said:


> We are all aware that the people in Zimbabwe are being kept alive by food aid programmes.   A journalist with many years in this area was discussing this in a recent radio interview.  He suggested that the majority of Zimbabweans do not actually understand that what food they do receive is from outside aid.  They assume it is coming from the great leader Mr Mugabe.
> His suggestion was that if all outside aid was withheld, then the people would get rid of Mugabe in a heartbeat.





Got to love how Guba and his cronies through all the evil farmer guys off the Farms, Rolled the tractors , burnt the crops, grew some more desert , claimed a moral victory and still get Fed ...... All whilst adding to the global food crisis at both ends of the string


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## The Once-ler (7 May 2008)

Julia said:


> We are all aware that the people in Zimbabwe are being kept alive by food aid programmes.   A journalist with many years in this area was discussing this in a recent radio interview.  He suggested that the majority of Zimbabweans do not actually understand that what food they do receive is from outside aid.  They assume it is coming from the great leader Mr Mugabe.
> His suggestion was that if all outside aid was withheld, then the people would get rid of Mugabe in a heartbeat.




Yeah, heard that interview Julia. He said we are keeping Mugabe in power by feeding the people.

And a lot of other places in Africa, the more food we send, the more kids they have.


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## numbercruncher (7 May 2008)

The Once-ler said:


> Yeah, heard that interview Julia. He said we are keeping Mugabe in power by feeding the people.
> 
> And a lot of other places in Africa, the more food we send, the more kids they have.





The unsustainability of it all is rapidly coming to the surface, World Vision recently announced it can no longer afford to feed 1.5m of the 7.5m it fed last year.

The US provides about half the Worlds food Aid each year, as far as I can see the US can no longer afford it either.

Combined with draughts, dying crops , urbanisation , swelling populations etc its all going to end terribly im certain.

Even places like the UK are unsustainable I remember reading they can grow enough food to feed like no more than 40m, yet they have in excess of 60m.

Im thinking the age of cheap oil aloud humanity to reach this unsustainable population and as Oil vanishes over this century so will a large number of the population bubble.


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## Aussiejeff (7 May 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The unsustainability of it all is rapidly coming to the surface, World Vision recently announced it can no longer afford to feed 1.5m of the 7.5m it fed last year.
> 
> The US provides about half the Worlds food Aid each year, as far as I can see the US can no longer afford it either.
> 
> ...




Yep. *Cheap* oil (remember way back when - a year or two ago?) meant growing and transporting megatonnes of food from richer countries to poorer countries was a relatively easy equation to manage.

With the far higher price of oil now being rammed home as a prime factor in the cost of food production and transportation, there seems little hope in the foreseeable future for the burgeoning masses of poor in the world to be sustained.


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## nioka (7 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Yep. *Cheap* oil (remember way back when - a year or two ago?) meant growing and transporting megatonnes of food from richer countries to poorer countries was a relatively easy equation to manage.
> 
> With the far higher price of oil now being rammed home as a prime factor in the cost of food production and transportation, there seems little hope in the foreseeable future for the burgeoning masses of poor in the world to be sustained.




 It is time that aid was directed towards helping most of the countries produce more of their own food rather than send some food. The old saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him for life."


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## doogie_goes_off (7 May 2008)

I consider this a local problem. With the massive inflation on food, the best solution is to grow some food yourself, which allows a bit more export etc. The hypocracy I see at the local level is the best farming land for 20km where I live is now a high density housing development (100 mouths to feed!). The reality is that you could produce many tonnes of food of that meagre few hectares, but no one is planning at any government level for urban sprawl. In Tasmania the tree farms (no food value) are taking over from traditional agriculture, another oppotunity lost.


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## Aussiejeff (7 May 2008)

doogie_goes_off said:


> I consider this a local problem. With the massive inflation on food, the best solution is to grow some food yourself, which allows a bit more export etc. The hypocracy I see at the local level is the best farming land for 20km where I live is now a high density housing development (100 mouths to feed!). The reality is that you could produce many tonnes of food of that meagre few hectares, but no one is planning at any government level for urban sprawl. In Tasmania the tree farms (no food value) are taking over from traditional agriculture, another oppotunity lost.




Have you considered the now exorbitant cost of oil-based FERTILIZER and CHEMICALS that are widely used for intensive agriculture might just be playing a role in all this? I would bet that FAR less fertilizer and chemicals are needed to grow simple tree farms than to use the same land to produce a more complicated product like food!

Forget about this being just a problem for poor countries to solve. Even Australian farmers are giving up on more fertilizer/chemical intensive crops due to the massive hikes in cost as a result of the rise in price of oil.

AJ


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## Smurf1976 (7 May 2008)

doogie_goes_off said:


> In Tasmania the tree farms (no food value) are taking over from traditional agriculture, another oppotunity lost.



That's largely the intended consequence of a number of state and federal political decisions made over the past quarter century. If you make a conscious decision to shift the economy towards primary forestry production whilst at the same time also deciding to protect 40% of the state's land mass then it's inevitable that you end up growing trees on much of the remaining land.

I won't start another debate here about conservation though I'll state my view that the whole thing is ultimately unsustainable once oil gets expensive.


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## Aussiejeff (8 May 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's largely the intended consequence of a number of state and federal political decisions made over the past quarter century. If you make a conscious decision to shift the economy towards primary forestry production whilst at the same time also deciding to protect 40% of the state's land mass then it's inevitable that you end up growing trees on much of the remaining land.
> 
> I won't start another debate here about conservation though I'll state my view that *the whole thing is ultimately unsustainable once oil gets expensive*.




Maybe oil is near expensive enough already to have reached that un-sustainable tipping point? 

AJ


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## treefrog (8 May 2008)

summary following appears to be agreeing with a lot of what has been said here - from web site www.mercola.com



> In the year 2007, wheat prices rose 77 percent and rice 16 percent. These were some of the sharpest price hikes ever. But this year the speed of change has accelerated even further. Since January 2008, the price of rice has soared just over 140 percent.
> Says Josette Sheeran, head of the UN World Food Programme, “… This crisis is different. It is occurring in many countries simultaneously, the first time that has happened since the early 1970s. And it is affecting people not usually hit by famines.”
> So what’s happening?
> There’s a lot of talk about the rising demand for biofuel being the culprit, as more farmers are now growing biofuel products rather than food, spurred on by various governmental incentives. But that’s certainly not the one and only factor fueling this world-wide problem.
> ...



.


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## numbercruncher (11 May 2008)

Will be an Interesting article on 60m tonight about a parasite destroying bees and in tandem food crops via no pollination.



> FRUIT and vegetable prices could skyrocket in the likely event that a parasite decimating bee populations overseas reaches Australia, experts warn.
> 
> Honey bees have a major role in pollinating Australian crops, including apples, pears, apricots, pumpkins, almonds, avocados and cherries.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21660605-421,00.html


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## Smurf1976 (11 May 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Will be an Interesting article on 60m tonight about a parasite destroying bees and in tandem food crops via no pollination.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21660605-421,00.html



No bees = no humans.


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## numbercruncher (11 May 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> No bees = no humans.





Yes totally amazing story !

This parasite is decimating Bee populations World wide and the only place it hasnt invaded is Australia.

They say if this parasite kills all the Bees, Humans are dead within 5 years !

Crop yields already effected by this, obviously part of the WOrld Food shortgae that hasnt got much publicity already.

If this Aussie Scientist fixes the problem he better get a Nobel prize!


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## moXJO (11 May 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Yes totally amazing story !
> 
> This parasite is decimating Bee populations World wide and the only place it hasnt invaded is Australia.
> 
> ...




I read somewhere that Australia only spends $50k on keeping the parasite out while NZ spends 750k on keeping it out of the south island. Sounds stupid when you think how much money this country wastes. This should be given priority and a whole lot of funding.This is not the issue to neglect.


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## numbercruncher (11 May 2008)

moXJO said:


> I read somewhere that Australia only spends $50k on keeping the parasite out while NZ spends 750k on keeping it out of the south island. Sounds stupid when you think how much money this country wastes. This should be given priority and a whole lot of funding.This is not the issue to neglect.





That is amazing, Infact seen as we are the only nation free of this parasite on the planet youd think other nations would be sending wads of cash to help fight the good fight !

They surely must have bee colonies as a safety measure on remote islands etc ?


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## Smurf1976 (11 May 2008)

moXJO said:


> I read somewhere that Australia only spends $50k on keeping the parasite out while NZ spends 750k on keeping it out of the south island. Sounds stupid when you think how much money this country wastes. This should be given priority and a whole lot of funding.This is not the issue to neglect.



Given the seriousness of the issue - we're talking about outright extinction of humans - I'd say even 50% of GDP going into research wouldn't be overkill.

Terrorism, climate change, Iraq and all the rest are at best a distant threat compared to this one. Even peak oil won't matter if we all starve with the bees going.


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## habs (11 May 2008)

hasnt australia been exporting bees to america to keep up there supply? im sure i heard about this 6 months ago or so..


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## moXJO (11 May 2008)

habs said:


> hasnt australia been exporting bees to america to keep up there supply? im sure i heard about this 6 months ago or so..




It started in america in 1987- 1995 ,25% decline in managed hives and the virtual elimination of feral colonies.So its not new.Makes you wonder why not much has been mentioned about it? I think the asian bees are resistant to it not as good producers as the european bees though.

edit: ok 1904 they were first discovered in asia.


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## 2020hindsight (12 May 2008)

numbercruncher,  At the time of the previous discussion / previous thread about bees , there were no dead bees to be found.  Is that still the case? (sorry missed last night's show)

PS as some cynic suggested (on celsias link below), the next step is to genetically engineer bees. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169472&highlight=bees#post169472

PS .. As far as GM goes, Dawkins might be right - that it's technically and hypothetically sound - or rather that babies shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater - just that I don't trust Monsanto as far as I can kick em.

btw, this post by Uncle Festivus , #1 from the "No Bees No Food" thread (last year) 




Uncle Festivus said:


> I don't know where this is heading but by all accounts it could be serious.
> Bee populations in Europe & America are coming under atack by a mystery illness. As bees are needed to pollinate food crops, it is shaping up to be a big threat to the world economy, and has a lot of people worried.
> 
> http://www.celsias.com/blog/2007/03/29/european-bees-taking-a-nosedive/
> ...


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## Aussiejeff (12 May 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> Given the seriousness of the issue - we're talking about outright extinction of humans - I'd say even 50% of GDP going into research wouldn't be overkill.
> 
> Terrorism, climate change, Iraq and all the rest are at best a distant threat compared to this one. Even peak oil won't matter if we all starve with the bees going.




No problem! Us modern day humans are *S.M.A.R.T.*. Forget the genetically modified bees.... we'll simply design computerised *Nano-Bees* (TM) from the ground up, to replace those dumb critters that silly Mother Nature coughed up!

See? No problem at all!




AJ


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## Aussiejeff (12 May 2008)

I have a feeling that those in positions of immense wealth and power around the planet would be in a state of denial regarding what they would probably see as a *ludicrous* proposition that a tiny bee could bring about the downfall of civilisation as we know it!

That could explain why there seems to be a relatively deafening silence regarding the subject coming from the media in general and these *powerful* groups.


AJ


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## numbercruncher (12 May 2008)

> numbercruncher, At the time of the previous discussion / previous thread about bees , there were no dead bees to be found. Is that still the case?





Hmm I think they are finding dead bees, they showed in the Beehive the parasite killing baby bees (lavae ?)

They showed the parasite sitting in the Hive and a bee walked over it, it then vanished and was on the Bees back about to start its tick like work of sucking out the bees blood, which then infects it with parasites that kill.

If this Aussie scientist is the only one working on a solution he should be under 24 hour armed guard, imagine if something happened to him ! Im sure his work is well documented, but I find it hard to fathom one person has been left with such an important task - surely others around the globe must be working on it ?


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## 2020hindsight (12 May 2008)

moXJO said:


> I read somewhere that Australia only spends $50k on keeping the parasite out while NZ spends 750k on keeping it out of the south island. Sounds stupid when you think how much money this country wastes. This should be given priority and a whole lot of funding.This is not the issue to neglect.




so moxjo, I take it that the parasite is in North Island  but not South (?)
Sounds like it's only a matter of time before we get it as well 

But I'd sure as hell agree with you (and nc et al ) i.e. we should be spending more than we do,  you'd think .  Hell they spend $50k on a party in Canberra , don't they? 

Here's an old post from a year ago..



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/03/30/1885584.htm
> Australian honey may be in danger from bee parasite
> Posted Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17pm AEST
> 
> ...




THis one also 12 months old or so...



> http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2006/s1888384.htm
> Bee Parasite
> By Tara Vickers
> Tuesday, 03/04/2007
> ...


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## moXJO (13 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> so moxjo, I take it that the parasite is in North Island  but not South (?)
> Sounds like it's only a matter of time before we get it as well




Yes it invaded the North, and now spending big $ to keep it out of South (not sure if it is there yet). I think every country has done the same thing. Ignore it till it arrives and causes millions of damage. It’s not just the honey industry either. Considering how much the price of food will shoot up I'm surprised about the lack of funding and media attention. We send millions of $ in overseas aid, yet something that could threaten starvation around the globe in poorer countries due to food price rising is given very little attention. At least the Aus apiarists might be breeding bees that are not affected as much (Russian strain possibly)

Just seems we could spend a lot more then we do on a longer term solution. Not wait for the rest of the world to hopefully come up with an idea.


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## 2020hindsight (13 May 2008)

moXJO said:


> 1. Considering how much the price of food will shoot up I'm surprised about the lack of funding and media attention. We send millions of $ in overseas aid, yet something that could threaten starvation around the globe in poorer countries due to food price rising is given very little attention.
> 
> 2. At least the Aus apiarists might be breeding bees that are not affected as much (Russian strain possibly)



thanks moxjo 
1. totally agree - sheesh.  Given proper weighting, it deserves to be mentioned in tonight's Budget (you'd think). 

2. Maybe that explains all those emails I keep getting from some "Russian Honey"


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## Green08 (3 March 2009)

This has not been touched on for some time.

Anyone have a little extra tucked away in the pantry or seriously engaging in permaculture? Don't forget your pet.

What are your boy/girl scout skills like?  cooking, cleanliness, first aid, knots, camping?? 

Not being alarmist just looking at things that most take for granted until they HAVE to do something important by force.


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## roland (25 March 2010)

> Bees in more trouble than ever after bad winter
> 
> MERCED, Calif. – The mysterious 4-year-old crisis of disappearing honeybees is deepening. A quick federal survey indicates a heavy bee die-off this winter, while a new study shows honeybees' pollen and hives laden with pesticides.




Full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100324/ap_on_sc/us_food_and_farm_disappearing_bees

I watched a doco a couple of months ago with the Australian Bee Expert (sorry can't remember his name). Along with exporting good ol' Aussie bees to the US, there was a lot of research of the bee mites. Seems like Australia is close to being the only place in the world that have a stable and healthy bee population.

This latest news hasn't pin pointed a cause, but are suspicious of pesticides....

Let's hope our Border Security can keep our Bio Security intact.


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## mullokintyre (22 March 2022)

Not much been talked about on Food shortages of recent times, but a couple of world events need to be taken into consideration.
Firstly, 
one of the biggest grain producers, Ukraine, has been effectively taken out of the world market courtesy of the Russians.
Secondly, Russia one of the biggest suppliers of Urea to North America has been taken out of the market. The shortage of Urea and thus basic fertilizers for food production has already been documented on other threads.
Now to add to that,  Canada, one of the big five producers of grains, has some issues. 
From Zero hedge


> The North American agricultural sector could be in for a major shock if Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd's (CP Rail) work stoppage is not resolved in a timely manner because it could spark a shortage of fertilizer and other shipments critical for the spring growing season, according to AP News.
> AP News reports more than 3,000 CP Rail conductors, engineers, train, and yard workers represented by the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference stepped off the job Sunday as the union and CP Rail couldn't strike a deal.
> CP Rail is the leading carrier of potash, a potassium-rich salt mined from underground deposits formed from evaporated sea beds millions of years ago, used to support crop development. In prior investor documents, the rail company said it hauls 70% of the potash produced in North America, all from mines in Canada. The railroad also carries fertilizers, including phosphate, urea, ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, and anhydrous ammonia.
> A disruption of fertilizer shipments could significantly impact US farmers on the cusp of planting season. The work stoppage may exacerbate existing supply chain bottlenecks in North America stemming from COVID. The agricultural sector can't afford any more disruptions as Western economic sanctions on Russia and Belarus, two major fertilizer producers, have unleashed higher prices globally and shortage fears.



And finally, from Agweb comes warnings of drought conditions and disastrous harvest prospects in mid west grain producing states of the US could portent a disastrous winter grain harvest in the North American continent.


> March 14 (Reuters) - A worsening drought in the southern U.S. Plains is threatening the region's winter wheat crop just as the Russian invasion of Ukraine dents global supplies.
> 
> Some farmers in southwestern Kansas, the top U.S. wheat producing state, have not received much measurable rain or snow since October. Winter wheat is planted in autumn, lays dormant in winter and begins sending up green shoots in spring. Proper soil moisture is critical at this stage for the crop to thrive.
> 
> ...



The only good part out of all this is that Australia continues to produce bumper harvests, and there will be plenty of markets paying good prices for the food basics.
Might help to pay off some of that huge debt the various levels of Government has raked up.
Mick


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## macca (22 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Not much been talked about on Food shortages of recent times, but a couple of world events need to be taken into consideration.
> Firstly,
> one of the biggest grain producers, Ukraine, has been effectively taken out of the world market courtesy of the Russians.
> Secondly, Russia one of the biggest suppliers of Urea to North America has been taken out of the market. The shortage of Urea and thus basic fertilizers for food production has already been documented on other threads.
> ...



I sympathise with those who have been flooded, it would be terrible to watch the water rise into your home, But we tend to forget that on the other side of the ocean they are getting the other side of the coin, heat and drought.

As our understanding of the part that oceans play in our weather improves, hopefully everyone will have a better warning of what to expect in the coming season.

All these satellites and remote reporting devices must help in planning for the future.


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## wayneL (22 March 2022)

They are now several scenarios where world wide critical food shortage could become a reality, the most terrifying of which is a potential nuclear winter.

However there are lots of disruptions which could be disastrous in equal measure, or close to it.

The Mormons, et Al, are onto it, as should y'all be.


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## Dona Ferentes (9 April 2022)

Global Macro Update - Mauldin Economics
					

John Mauldin, Financial Expert, Best-Selling Author, and Editor of Thoughts from the Frontline Investment Newsletter. Offering Financial & Economic Analysis, Research.




					www.mauldineconomics.com
				





Ukraine
Food shortages
Globalisation being pinched
And Covid not yet played out

Bumpy ride ahead


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## StockyGuy (9 April 2022)

You say food shortage like it's a bad thing.   Could be good for some  Might help our track and field medal tally at the Olympics.


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## mullokintyre (19 April 2022)

From Zero Hedge
Corn futures have hit 8 bucks a bushel for the first time in nearly 10 years.
There are numerous reasons for this


> The global outlook for corn supplies has plunged since Russia's invasion of Ukraine began in late February. The war-torn country supplies a fifth of the world's corn and could experience a 50% decline in output this year.



Fertilizer prices are at record highs because of rising natural gas costs and Russia limiting fertilizer exports to 'unfriendly' countries. Russia is one of the biggest exporters globally -- the U.S. just so happens to be a large importer of nitrogen and potash from Russia. 

And then there is the issue of diverting Corn to ethanol production.


> And the latest development pushing corn prices to the stratosphere is the Biden administration's announcement of emergency measures last week to expand biofuel sales to curb soaring gasoline prices. The problem with this move is that the ethanol industry absorbs a larger share of the corn crop, which would curb supplies to the food industry. So ultimately, it would increase prices.







	

		
			
		

		
	
Secondly,


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## PZ99 (19 April 2022)

Might have to tip ASX FOOD in the next comp


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## greggles (21 May 2022)

The coming global food shortage is now unavoidable and may take several years to recover from.


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## wayneL (21 May 2022)

I've said it before on this forum that the Mormons have the right idea (notwithstanding any religious disagreements).

Like them we do have a year supply of non perishables (and no we are definitely not Mormon).

This problem did telegraph itself long before now. Anyone with not some sort of reserve supply food was not listening in my opinion.


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## Craton (21 May 2022)

The


wayneL said:


> I've said it before on this forum that the Mormons have the right idea (notwithstanding any religious disagreements).
> 
> Like them we do have a year supply of non perishables (and no we are definitely not Mormon).
> 
> This problem did telegraph itself long before now. Anyone with not some sort of reserve supply food was not listening in my opinion.



For the carnivores, it'll be a sad day if the literal term for larder actually comes back into play.


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## StockyGuy (21 May 2022)

I gather what is perceived as on the horizon is issues with supply of CERTAIN foodstuffs.  Touch wood, and God forbid, it doesn't seem normal Aussies and normal Yanks and such like are very close to ACTUALLY having trouble regularly stuffing the standard 8700 kilojoules in some form down their gobs.  But, hey, the chance of real catastrophe and black swan is ever present (and increasing a lot since Putin's aggression in Ukraine this year).

As for the less developed areas... well there's always famine and starvation somewhere


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## JohnDe (22 May 2022)

It almost looks like that Putin has planned to destroy Ukraine's food production, and for Russia to take it over.



> In 2020 Mrs Nazarenko and her husband Andriy inherited the 400-hectare (1,000-acre) farm, now named Rosa after that founding horse. Early this year they took out a substantial loan to cover fertiliser for the coming spring-wheat crop.
> 
> On March 9th, well before they had planted any, Russian troops occupied the village and the couple fled. On March 31st, when the invaders had turned tail, they returned. It was a harsh homecoming. The main farm building was shelled out. Three tractors had been vandalised and their diesel drained. Of their 117 cows, 42 were dead and the rest were roaming fields littered with debris, mines, mortar shells, unexploded cluster bombs and burnt-out trucks. Fifty tonnes of wheat, sunflower seed and rye had been destroyed,
> 
> ...


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## Dona Ferentes (22 August 2022)




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