# HSI Futures trading



## nielsend

I currently trade fulltime, at the moment just trading the SPI. As of the start of the New Year I'll be tracking the HSI, with the intention down the track to trade the mini HSI futures. 
Before I do so I'm keen to hear from anyone that currently trades the HSI futures (both mini & full contracts), and is able to pass on any advice regarding their experiences i.e. how does it differ (if at all) from trading the SPI? Very generalized statement I know, but I'm keen to hear any comments.

Trading on the SPI is mainly day trading and swing trading (I occasionally hold overnight, but not very often).
Brokerage: Interactive Brokers
Data: eSignal
Charting: Amibroker


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## nomore4s

Have very limited experience on the HSI but is moves alot quicker then the SPI and you can be caught offside very quickly.

IMO you would want to make sure your method works on that market before committing serious coin to it. If you're using IB I would use the demo account for a while to get a feel for the market as it moves very differently to the SPI.

Good luck


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## skc

Don't forget these lazy honkers break for 2 hr (?) lunch every day. And lunch gaps can be nasty...

Also from memory the HSI market depth isn't as usual as the SPI... if you consult market depth at all.


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## GMS

Nielsend,

I haven't traded them personally, although I have been a client advisor for several years. 

The two contracts differ quite a bit. The HSI generally has bigger swings, that can be very rewarding/costly depending on your position in the market. For some trading styles this is advantageous over the SPI. The HSI has been popular with systems Traders locally, and I have only come across a few that actively discretionary trade it.


The mini HSI is useful for Traders who want reduced leverage, and it would be great to have a mini version of the SPI listed on the SFE.

The HKFE has at times closed the market midsession due to typhoons, which may leave you stuck with a position. The HKFE gives sufficient warning, and your Broker will need to be on the ball to pass this information onto you.

Unlike the SPI the HSI has a two hour lunch break, and is known to gap on the reopen, so be mindful of this.

Cheers.

GMS


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## MRC & Co

nielsend said:


> Brokerage: Interactive Brokers
> Data: eSignal
> Charting: Amibroker




eSignal provides the data and the charting, why use amibroker?


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## nielsend

nomore4s said:


> Have very limited experience on the HSI but is moves alot quicker then the SPI and you can be caught offside very quickly.
> 
> IMO you would want to make sure your method works on that market before committing serious coin to it. If you're using IB I would use the demo account for a while to get a feel for the market as it moves very differently to the SPI.
> 
> Good luck




I’m receiving the data already from eSignal into Amibroker ($4 per month), and have a chart up and running with the Dec contract. I haven’t had a chance to do anything more than set it up per my standard template at the moment, but as mentioned will start applying my strategies in early Jan and start monitoring / recording the results (live paper trading etc). I’ll do this for a couple of months minimum before I decide whether to trade it.


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## nielsend

skc said:


> Don't forget these lazy honkers break for 2 hr (?) lunch every day. And lunch gaps can be nasty...
> 
> Also from memory the HSI market depth isn't as usual as the SPI... if you consult market depth at all.




I’ve taken note of the ‘gapping’ issue on both of the sessions, obviously a concern.

I use the DOM on IB, along with a volume plugin in AB, to get an idea of the short term direction when looking for entry points. This is due to using tight stops, and a tight 1st contract profit stop (to limit the losses should it go against me).


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## nielsend

GMS said:


> Nielsend,
> 
> I haven't traded them personally, although I have been a client advisor for several years.
> 
> The two contracts differ quite a bit. The HSI generally has bigger swings, that can be very rewarding/costly depending on your position in the market. For some trading styles this is advantageous over the SPI. The HSI has been popular with systems Traders locally, and I have only come across a few that actively discretionary trade it.
> 
> 
> The mini HSI is useful for Traders who want reduced leverage, and it would be great to have a mini version of the SPI listed on the SFE.
> 
> The HKFE has at times closed the market midsession due to typhoons, which may leave you stuck with a position. The HKFE gives sufficient warning, and your Broker will need to be on the ball to pass this information onto you.
> 
> Unlike the SPI the HSI has a two hour lunch break, and is known to gap on the reopen, so be mindful of this.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> GMS




Occasionally on IB bulletins have been posted about the exchange being closed due to typhoons. 

I’m starting to get the picture that the way to possibly trade the HSI is to enter and exit in the same session?


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## nielsend

MRC & Co said:


> eSignal provides the data and the charting, why use amibroker?




I get the basic data feed from eSignal, it’s cheaper. And then use AB for charting due to its flexibility, which is greater than any other charting software I have come across. AB basically allows you to customize just about anything inclusive of various plugins, indicators, backtesting. The charting provided on eSignal and IB is very limited.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Yeah I echo what nomore4s has said already, paper trade it before hand, it can be viscous, you may also want to try the HHI, pretty much copies the HSI but its less $ per tick I think. 

I had a go at them a while back, you need to be careful but they can provide some good chances, I didn't feel up to it at the time, where I was with my learning etc, but keen to give them a go again later sometime.  

Good luck


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## MRC & Co

nielsend, I think a guy by the name of "tk" (though there was something else at the end of the "tk"), started a thread about these markets quite some time ago (over a year).  You may want to PM him, I don't know if you will get a reply, but he is probably one of the best HSI/HHI traders you will be able to come accross around these parts.  The only other one I know is TH (Trembling Hand) who doesn't post here anymore.

I can only add to the obvious comments made that it is volatile and gaps - and the fact that most of the traders who trade the HHI and HSI, do not use the order flow (order book), so most of the volume will get done at market and won't be sitting in the book.  Look for simple things like if you are bearish, and you see some size on the ask, but nobody goes up and takes it, and some asks start coming to market to hit the bids, then there is probably a big seller wanting fills, couldn't get them and is now doing so at market.  This may or may not happen more often in the futures close (once cash has already closed on the second session).


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## CascadeX

nielsend said:


> I currently trade fulltime, at the moment just trading the SPI. As of the start of the New Year I'll be tracking the HSI, with the intention down the track to trade the mini HSI futures.
> Before I do so I'm keen to hear from anyone that currently trades the HSI futures (both mini & full contracts), and is able to pass on any advice regarding their experiences i.e. how does it differ (if at all) from trading the SPI? Very generalized statement I know, but I'm keen to hear any comments.
> 
> Trading on the SPI is mainly day trading and swing trading (I occasionally hold overnight, but not very often).
> Brokerage: Interactive Brokers
> Data: eSignal
> Charting: Amibroker




Hi Neil,
May I ask what the ticker code is to feed the SPI and even the HSI into Amibroker is? AB seems to be quite precise in terms of the spacing and ticker code for it to be able to load. 
I have tried SPIH0-SNFE-FUT as well as SPIH10-SNFE-FUT to no avail. My feeling is that there is perhaps a space somewhere, or the code starts with the AP variant.


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## CanOz

CascadeX said:


> Hi Neil,
> May I ask what the ticker code is to feed the SPI and even the HSI into Amibroker is? AB seems to be quite precise in terms of the spacing and ticker code for it to be able to load.
> I have tried SPIH0-SNFE-FUT as well as SPIH10-SNFE-FUT to no avail. My feeling is that there is perhaps a space somewhere, or the code starts with the AP variant.




Its the AP prefix. If you flip back through the Amibroker FAQ thread its listed again, obviously not for the spot month though.

CanOz


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## nomore4s

CascadeX said:


> Hi Neil,
> May I ask what the ticker code is to feed the SPI and even the HSI into Amibroker is? AB seems to be quite precise in terms of the spacing and ticker code for it to be able to load.
> I have tried SPIH0-SNFE-FUT as well as SPIH10-SNFE-FUT to no avail. My feeling is that there is perhaps a space somewhere, or the code starts with the AP variant.




Try this:
APH0-SNFE-FUT-AUD
HSIZ9-HKFE-FUT-HKD

Forex
AUD.USD-IDEALPRO-CASH

Took me a while to work it out too.


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## CascadeX

nomore4s said:


> Try this:
> APH0-SNFE-FUT-AUD
> HSIZ9-HKFE-FUT-HKD
> 
> Forex
> AUD.USD-IDEALPRO-CASH
> 
> Took me a while to work it out too.




Ah great thanks.


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## Naked shorts

MRC & Co said:


> The only other one I know is TH (Trembling Hand) who doesn't post here anymore.




He actually did a post about the exact thing you are talking about nielsend.

http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad....07/knowing-when-to-expext-the-unexpected.html


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## nielsend

Naked shorts said:


> He actually did a post about the exact thing you are talking about nielsend.
> 
> http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad....07/knowing-when-to-expext-the-unexpected.html




Thanks NS, interesting reading.


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## ThingyMajiggy

HK on holidays or something?


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## skyQuake

ThingyMajiggy said:


> HK on holidays or something?




Chinese new year. And nikkei closed for lunch


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## ThingyMajiggy

skyQuake said:


> Chinese new year. And nikkei closed for lunch




when does trading resume?


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## Trembling Hand

WTF!!!! 



Whats going on with the order book


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## Trembling Hand

!!







Everywhere!!


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## Wysiwyg

Trembling Hand said:


> !!
> 
> Everywhere!!




On the sell side?


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## Trembling Hand

Wysiwyg said:


> On the sell side?




Sell side, buy side, upside down side inside out side. 

everywhere - very unwelcome development!!


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Sell side, buy side, upside down side inside out side.
> 
> everywhere - very unwelcome development!!




So, whats the problem in English? bots...with cold knackers?


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## nunthewiser

ThingyMajiggy said:


> So, whats the problem in English? bots...with cold knackers?





Props controlling the action to where they actually wanna let it go or snap it up ... creating to big a hurdle for joe bloggs to sneak in and out on occasion


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## nunthewiser

i could be wrong


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## ThingyMajiggy

nunthewiser said:


> Props controlling the action to where they actually wanna let it go or snap it up ... creating to big a hurdle for joe bloggs to sneak in and out on occasion




Cheers for that nun


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> So, whats the problem in English? bots...with cold knackers?




End result is a lot of volume that goes nowhere. Have a look at the SPI now vs pre BOT control, 07-08 to now.

Reason seem to be because most of the volume is arbitrage rather than directional. Nightmare!!


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> End result is a lot of volume that goes nowhere. Have a look at the SPI now vs pre BOT control, 07-08 to now.
> 
> Reason seem to be because most of the volume is arbitrage rather than directional. Nightmare!!




Ahh I see. So does that mean its untradeable for you? Or heading that way? Does/will everything end up being like this? Or is it already?


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## Trembling Hand

For me it stuffed the SPI. But these come and go. Who knows the BOTs blow up just as fast as they appear it would seem. Unfortunately the SPI seems locked up forever.

Bit diff trying to lock up the HSI. This sucker is made to run. Will see what she develops into.

Unusual tight range today, about half so far.


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## sleepy

Hi T/H,

How often do the BOTS appear?
How long is the market usually affected before returning to normal? ... and how?
Does this occur on all Futures indices at some point or just say HSI?

And is it an issue/problem to all traders or just those whose scalp?

sleepy


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## Naked shorts

lol TH, I will hence forth call you the Titanic


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## Trembling Hand

sleepy said:


> Hi T/H,
> 
> How often do the BOTS appear?
> How long is the market usually affected before returning to normal? ... and how?
> Does this occur on all Futures indices at some point or just say HSI?
> 
> And is it an issue/problem to all traders or just those whose scalp?
> 
> sleepy




They are always there. Just not so noticeable. On Friday they went sick like I have never seen. I'm not sure what went on. Whether it was just two big dicks getting some serious business done or a BOT fat fingered (Thats a funny one). see the vid. It is replays at X4. Watch all the orders stuff the order book at about 20 sec mark. nutz!! then I slow it down at the end to show what it normally looks like. Obviously a big difference.



Then today there was Icebergs galore and some very funny price action. I don't really know what it was but I do know it was different. We will see how they go.


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## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> They are always there. Just not so noticeable. On Friday they went sick like I have never seen. I'm not sure what went on. Whether it was just two big dicks getting some serious business done or a BOT fat fingered (Thats a funny one). see the vid. It is replays at X4. Watch all the orders stuff the order book at about 20 sec mark. nutz!! then I slow it down at the end to show what it normally looks like. Obviously a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Then today there was Icebergs galore and some very funny price action. I don't really know what it was but I do know it was different. We will see how they go.





Its turning into the Nikkei 

But then things went back to normal (completely nuts) so thats fineeeeee


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## Jack.c

Hi guys,

I was just wondering as a scalper do you have any idea of the max size you can put on per trade efficiently?

For the SPI, HSI and Nikkei?


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## Trembling Hand

Jack.c said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I was just wondering as a scalper do you have any idea of the max size you can put on per trade efficiently?
> 
> For the SPI, HSI and Nikkei?




That seems very similar to the question "how long is a piece of string" :

Define scalping and if/what market you now apply it to.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Up, up and away for the HSI, good correlation with Asia and SPI this arvo. Let 2 good trades goto waste on the SPI 

It's good having the added support of Asia with the SPI, now its just down to me to stop making stupid decisions and letting the trades go 

Ah well, still a good day!


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## ThingyMajiggy

+500 points in the last hour!  Making up for all its ranging lately


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> +500 points in the last hour!  Making up for all its ranging lately




You don't see that kinda action everyday, from nearly S3 to R3 in a bit over an hour. As well as a record morning range since 08 (At a guess, my stats are not complete on that one)

No complaints about bots or Icebergulars today.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> No complaints about bots or Icebergulars today.




Haha yeah, didn't notice anything today, it was classic HSI today. Helped the SPI have a super strong finish too.



...500 posts!


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## jonojpsg

Ok, so I'm very new to trading the HSI - why was it classic HSI today?  Why does it range so much - from -250 to +250 in half an hour!!!!

I was sitting there reading your post TH and the couple of others about my trade on this and took brty's advice, closed out the trade just as it went positive because I figured it was good advice.  Then watched it run another 200+ points

I know my trading was ****e and had no rigour to it, but how do you trade the HSI with rigour when it does that?  Does it have to be a situation where you are in front of the monitor the whole time?  I guess that depends on what time scale you trade over - but to take full advantage of that sort of ranging you would have to be.

Thanks in advance


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## ThingyMajiggy

jonojpsg said:


> why was it classic HSI today?




I was meaning it was classic HSI in the fact that it was wild movement, relative to the last few days where its been pretty quiet for the HSI, today was back to "normal" you could say, where it just goes and goes fast. 

But I ain't too flash at it either, TH is your man


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## Trembling Hand

I can answer your question but most don't like my reply so why don't you tell us how you think one should go about trading the HSI or any index/market for that matter.

Just as a starter.


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## jonojpsg

Trembling Hand said:


> I can answer your question but most don't like my reply so why don't you tell us how you think one should go about trading the HSI or any index/market for that matter.
> 
> Just as a starter.




OK, well I try and keep up with the macro stuff going on, eg latest news, interest rates, economic data.  That at least helps me trade from an informed perspective (OK so far?).

Then from the charts I would look for support/resistance points, short/long term trends, volume, etc. and identify entry/exit points.

Sort out my position sizing and stop loss based on current capital.

But that's all just parrotting what everyone already knows

So how do I get an edge?  Is it intuition?  Like today at about 2.30pm when with the HSI down 250 I thought "hang on, the way other markets look, ASX, Dow futures, oil, currencies, surely this has to move back up at least 100-200 points".  Does the HSI, or any other index, work that way?  What leads, the Dow, the ASX, Nikkei, FTSE, what?  

Is it the latest data or news out, like what started my whole episode, the Fed emergency rate moving, which pushed the HSI down 600 points?

Anyways TH, I know you probably get sick of newbies asking stupid questions so I'll understand if you can't be bothered with me


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## Mr J

> So how do I get an edge?




By finding situations where price is more likely to move a certain amount one way than the other, or move a further distance.


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## Trembling Hand

China is positive, HSI still an inside day and ranging upwards. Wonder if they can pull the rest of the sorry suckers along today?


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## Broadway

Trembling Hand said:


> China is positive, HSI still an inside day and ranging upwards. Wonder if they can pull the rest of the sorry suckers along today?




Imo, gold, copper, euro and oil were bought after the crappy consumer confidence number.
ES has already responded a little, ES up 8 off its 5am low of 1090.
NK rose 100 of its lows of 10130, but fallen back 50, which has got me slightly worried.
Im hoping 4640 on the spi provides some resistance.
We'll see in the next 48hrs.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Pretty quiet so far for HSI


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## Trembling Hand

Anyone watching the HSI through IB? My data (mainly DOM) keeps freezing every couple of minutes for about 10 secs. like it is dropping out connection but saying that I'm still connected in the "Market data Connection" thingo.

c:


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Anyone watching the HSI through IB? My data (mainly DOM) keeps freezing every couple of minutes for about 10 secs. like it is dropping out connection but saying that I'm still connected in the "Market data Connection" thingo.
> 
> c:




Fine here


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Fine here




Really? Grrrrrrr!! Looks like early Beer O'Clock for me.


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## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> Really? Grrrrrrr!! Looks like early Beer O'Clock for me.




Come back to the SPI!:vader:


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## Trembling Hand

skyQuake said:


> Come back to the SPI!:vader:




Would prefer to get a job serving :alcohol: to pimply faced 18 year olds and cocaine addicted hedge fund workers than trade that negative sum game


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## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> negative sum game




Oh wow thats an apt description lol...


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## MRC & Co

skyQuake said:


> Oh wow thats an apt description lol...




Was that you boys buying the cash yday when the rest of the world was tanking quake?  

SPI has hit entirely different levels now!  Never seen the market manipulation of the book like this, several levels of one side of the book can disappear now in a fraction of a second!


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## Trembling Hand

MRC & Co said:


> Was that you boys buying the cash yday when the rest of the world was tanking quake?




Wasn't that something. Bloody aussie casino. She's rigged in the houses favour for sure. I mean WTF was that yesterday. I didn't trade it, too much fun to be had in Honkers :, but I certainly noticed it.

What a joke.


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Wasn't that something. Bloody aussie casino. She's rigged in the houses favour for sure. I mean WTF was that yesterday. I didn't trade it, too much fun to be had in Honkers :, but I certainly noticed it.
> 
> What a joke.




Yeh.  It is actually funny that they get away with it.  Shows how small the market is, so much so, it is no longer a market, you now have to work out how many have positions one way so you can try go with the bot that fukcs them all!  

Well that's it for me for scalping anyways.  Onto much bigger game!!!!


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## Trembling Hand

MRC & Co said:


> Well that's it for me for scalping anyways.  Onto much bigger game!!!!




Selling to cocaine addicted hedge fund workers?


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Selling to cocaine addicted hedge fund workers?




ha ha ha.  Or being one!


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## white_goodman

MRC & Co said:


> you now have to work out how many have positions one way so you can try go with the bot that fukcs them all!




basically describes my trading style atm ha


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## ThingyMajiggy

Do you trade the last half hour of the arvo session TH?


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Do you trade the last half hour of the arvo session TH?




If I have to. Like today when I spent all morning fighting it. Luckily there was a bit doing and got back all my morning wrongs. Lucky bugger today.


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## >Apocalypto<

Trembling Hand said:


> If I have to. Like today when I spent all morning fighting it. Luckily there was a bit doing and got back all my morning wrongs. Lucky bugger today.




I checked HSI out with that Korean monster the KOPSI 200 man o man in a league of there own... I think it's safer to stick with FX 

what I noticed most was how violent the gaps can be on the KOPSI. Would be great trying to price them into your MM plan.


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## Trembling Hand

>Apocalypto< said:


> I checked HSI out with that Korean monster the KOPSI 200 man o man in a league of there own... I think it's safer to stick with FX



You can get a lot of business done in a few hours. Today 340 ticks down in the morning then 130 up and back down in the arvo. All in 4 & 3/4 hours. Lovely stuff. FX is for people who want to chase trades 24hrs. I'll take the compressed action of an index any day . 



>Apocalypto< said:


> what I noticed most was how violent the gaps can be on the KOPSI. Would be great trying to price them into your MM plan.




You talking over night gaps? They are of no concern to this little punter.


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## >Apocalypto<

Trembling Hand said:


> You can get a lot of business done in a few hours. Today 340 ticks down in the morning then 130 up and back down in the arvo. All in 4 & 3/4 hours. Lovely stuff.




Great movements, the Kopsi is where I want to end up once I have a 250K account to trade!



> FX is for people who want to chase trades 24hrs.




It is for some idiots out there..... like you I like to concentrate on a set block.



> You talking over night gaps? They are of no concern to this little punter.




I know they don't worry u....


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> If I have to. Like today when I spent all morning fighting it. Luckily there was a bit doing and got back all my morning wrongs. Lucky bugger today.




Yeah I was going OK in the arvo session, then the last 15-20 minutes really killed me, was all rangey and I kept getting chopped, didn't get onto the morning session though


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## ThingyMajiggy

Anyone know why Kospi isn't trading today? I looked at the calendar on the KSE website, but its as clear as mud for me.


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## Broadway

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Anyone know why Kospi isn't trading today? I looked at the calendar on the KSE website, but its as clear as mud for me.




It rolled over yesterday.
Also IB may have had some trouble this morning with data, I havent been getting data for june k200 till just then.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Broadway said:


> It rolled over yesterday.
> Also IB may have had some trouble this morning with data, I havent been getting data for june k200 till just then.




Ahh yeah, thats what I was wondering, because June wasn't loaded either, all good now, cheers


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## Trembling Hand

>Apocalypto< said:


> Great movements, the Kopsi is where I want to end up once I have a 250K account to trade!




If you want to dip your toe in you could have a look at the oppies. Hugely liquid marke much smaller size per tick , 1/5th of the fut about $5.


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## ThingyMajiggy

:chainsaw: chop chop chop chop chop :chainsaw:


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## Trembling Hand

Anyone see yesterdays open? What a great index to trade. Made the daily high and low within the first two minutes! 304 tick apart. lol!!!! 

NUTZZZZZ


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## nomore4s

Trembling Hand said:


> Anyone see yesterdays open? What a great index to trade. Made the daily high and low within the first two minutes! 304 tick apart. lol!!!!
> 
> NUTZZZZZ




lol, I wouldn't have a clue how you are meant to trade that


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## Trembling Hand

nomore4s said:


> lol, I wouldn't have a clue how you are meant to trade that




Yeah its actually pretty frustrating seeing that size move. I was short on the open. Got half stopped out, scratched the rest. then re-entered on 1/4 size, couldn't get a fill. Then before I could get a fill on the rest and move my bracket order out they hit it with 4000 lot sweep!! I made 31 ticks x a few contracts on a 300 tick move. Grr.

Another one that got away. 

Todays open I was short and got out seconds before the sweep up.  Phewwww


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Todays open I was short and got out seconds before the sweep up.  Phewwww




lol nice ya lucky bugger!  

I got a nice short on that move down yesterday after the initial spasm on the open, that was crazy 

...but good


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> lol nice ya lucky bugger!
> 
> I got a nice short on that move down yesterday after the initial spasm on the open, that was crazy
> 
> ...but good




I reckon they are not that unpredictable. If we have been in a range for long enough, like all of last week, you know there is going to be plenty of stops just outside that. And you know that they are fair game for the big dicks to go after - why not try and join in


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## ThingyMajiggy

LOL, have ridiculously psycho moves much?


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## Trembling Hand

shes a ripper hey?

Why would ya bother trading anything else?


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> shes a ripper hey?
> 
> Why would ya bother trading anything else?




You ever found more lag using NT for execution over IB?


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> You ever found more lag using NT for execution over IB?




I don't use it for hong kong.


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## Trembling Hand

Some vicious selling going on today.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Some vicious selling going on today.




Yeah you get that big sell off earlier? I got in sheep dit on the open, thought it would sell off sooner than it did, clawed my way back, nearly got on that big sell off but just missed it 

Isn't it funny how everything follows the US :

So based on those stats you done, Monday has set the low, we should be pushing higher into Fridays close?


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## Trembling Hand

Nah missed it. Been playing short mostly but got stopped out on that flick up just before the sell off!!!

Jumped back on here and there but going awful today, nearly hit my daily stop with **** entries.

thank god it got moving towards the end to get back close to flat.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Bear with me...trying to do some stats in Excel again  

I'm trying to find out what the chances are of the HSI touching its previous day OHLC, not all of them obviously but each one individually.

What would be the easiest way of doing this? I guess it would need to be done from minute data, like some sort of calculation if throughout the whole days price action, if it was = XXXXX from previous day.


----------



## Trembling Hand

too hard, and probably too messy to make any sense.

I would start with gaps closing you can use EOD for that.


----------



## nunthewiser

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah missed it. Been playing short mostly but got stopped out on that flick up just before the sell off!!!
> 
> Jumped back on here and there but going awful today, nearly hit my daily stop with **** entries.
> 
> thank god it got moving towards the end to get back close to flat.




Glad to see your human also


----------



## Trembling Hand

nunthewiser said:


> Glad to see your human also




Human!! skill level lower than an earth worm today.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ouch!! you needed plenty of fingers & toes to catch that falling knife!


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Ouch!! you needed plenty of fingers & toes to catch that falling knife!




Got that right! That was viscous! Looks like the stops got hit being outside the weeks range?


----------



## Nick29

Trembling Hand,

Are you using IB Booktrader for Hang Seng?


----------



## Trembling Hand

yep


----------



## Nick29

THT,

Ok. I was going to use booktrader but couldn't be bothered having to press the "Alt" button to transmit a bracket order.  So I went with Ninja.             I'm trading the mind numbingly slow SPI though.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Nick29 said:


> THT,
> 
> Ok. I was going to use booktrader but couldn't be bothered having to press the "Alt" button to transmit a bracket order.  So I went with Ninja.             I'm trading the mind numbingly slow SPI though.




NTs DOM is no good for the HSI as it only has 5 levels from the best bid/ask, useless for anything that can have the price spread over 10 - 15 levels. And I hate paying an extra 0.10 USD per side.

You can just set Book trader with hot keys to trade any way you want.

Oh yeah SPI can go get :321:, so useless to trade


----------



## Largesse

Yay SPI


----------



## Trembling Hand

Just LOL!!

I was about to post that the SPI has had a good day today.

But now it looks just Sh!te compared to this.


----------



## NAsX

Yes, amazing things happened today 

Why I keep going back to the HSI, despite all the headaches it's given me


----------



## Trembling Hand

hahaha. And its still going!!!!


----------



## NAsX

Any takes on why the HSI is always so volatile?

I've always taken the big point moves for granted because it's just how it's always been, but just then I had a look at the percentage moves, that was some 1.20% move in 6 minute in the first run alone, for an index that's just unbelievable


----------



## Trembling Hand

There is only 42 stocks in the HSI. With it very much weighted to the top 10 or so stocks. So its not that hard to fling around. And its calculated to have a high number, 20,000, makes for lots of ticks as well as % moves.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

What are the lines on that chart TH?


----------



## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> What are the lines on that chart TH?




I cannot tell you that, unless you don't mind me killing you after? 

Its a proprietary pre open range & direction predictor.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> I cannot tell you that, unless you don't mind me killing you after?
> 
> Its a proprietary pre open range & direction predictor.




Haha, yeah go for it :

...or current day OHLC?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Just a little note.

These dudes have some good stats on Futs.

They added the HSI but had the wrong month contract. I sent them an email this morning to tell them that HSI is monthly expiry and they have updated it. Very nice service. 

http://www.mypivots.com/dn/?symbol=304


----------



## Naked shorts

thanks for that, saves a bit of time


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

lol.

bit of a SPI vs HSI, thought it was quite funny, us Aussies are lazy pricks aren't we


----------



## georgey

How come HSI is holding firm while others are dropping?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Cuz its closed


----------



## georgey

Unclear question deserves ....., HSI has been firm last day or two
while others were weak, that's what I meant.


----------



## georgey

This seems to have a life of its own at the moment, uptrend since 
end of March. Wondered about shorting it this week, hence my earlier
question. In hindsight, should have gone with the trend about 21,750
on breakout. Guess one doesn't need any answers to do that.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Its just playing catch up to whats around it, Japan, Kospi, Taiwan etc .Its actually been really strong since the 26th of March when it had that large range day up after gapping down.


----------



## Kryzz

Is the HSI relatively expensive to trade? seems like commission adds up?

HSI - Commission round trip - 60 HKD + 1 tick spread = 110 HKD (15 AUD)

SPI - "      "  - 10 AUD + spread = 35 AUD

considering the value of a  HSI tick is about 7 AUD (ie, greater % of profit), regardless of how bad the spi is etc. etc, sorry, noob question

thanks



http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p.php?f=commission


----------



## Trembling Hand

There is more to it than costs per tick. The spi is @ 5000 so a tick is 0.02% of a move.

and the HSI is @ 22300 so a tick is 0.004% of a move. You need a much smaller move to cover the HSI cost. Not to mention that 0.02% for the spi is an absolute HUGE move. :


----------



## Trembling Hand

Nutters paradise on the HSI today.

:whip

:jump:


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

What was with the HSI today? Dropped 300 ticks in both sessions, delayed reaction to Friday or what? Nothing else seemed terribly weak.....that I saw anyway. Seemed to drag the SPI down with it.


----------



## Broadway

HSI often moves because its predicting whats coming in the ES that night. There were trades on peaks in the spi and Nikkei that suggested a down night as well.


----------



## pauleyh

Hi All,

I'm just switching over to the Asian markets after trading the US for the last few years (NQ & ES intraday mostly and some ETF's - QQQQ, DIA, etc). I'm based here in Melbourne (was working nights).

Would appreciate you guys could offer. I'm looking at the Nikkei 225 index until I get my feet settled and I can look at the HSI. Some questions for the experts below (all symbols quoted are just from my Interactive Brokers quote pages).

1. Nikkei futures: what is the trading choice for most from Nikkei full vs mini and OSE.JPN vs SGX. There are 4 contracts and it seems the N225M (japan, mini) has the largest daily volume by far - yet I've seen people only really refer to the SGX traded Nikkei (SGXNKM for mini, SGXNK for full).

2a. HSI futures: Which of the two HSI contracts do people trade - the full (HSI) or mini (MHI). The mini charts look rather spotty and not easily tradable so I'm figuring the HSI but was after your thoughts.

2b. HSI futures: My HSI charts stop trading at 5.45pm AEST when the HKFE wesbite says trading closes 30mins later at 6.15 AEST. Any thoughts?

3. Other futures: I've briefly looked at MSCI Taiwan Index (STW), SGX Straits Times Index (STI), Topix Index and it's mini (TOPX & MNTPX) and Japan Govt Bonds (JBG). These have reasonable daily volumes but charts don't seem easily tradable so just wondering if anyone actually trades them here.

4. IB TWS data feed: I inserted some pics below when opening charts directly in Interactive Brokers for STW, STI & SGXNK, SGXNKM. They look really bad (or are blank) however I've read here that people find the IB data feed fine for intraday futures trading. Any comments would be great.

Thanks guys, I know it's alot of questions so would appreciate any help you can give. Cheers. Paul.


----------



## pauleyh

PS: I forgot to mention the Kospi 200 Index futures (K200). Does anyone have problems charting the data? I can bring up a normal chart in IB TWS but when it comes into my charting platform (TradeStation) it's totally different.


----------



## Broadway

Hey Pauley,
I dont know what most trade but I can help a little.

1. I sometimes trade the sgxnk, it runs tick for tick with the n225,n225m and topx. The reason I trade it is, that it runs to 3am so you can take profits/losses  late if you want to wait for the US a.m. trend. It also opens before the spi and can give the spi a lead if there is japanese news at 0950. The other 3 dont go far into the night. I looked at the sgxnk mini once and it appeared to have little volume.

2a. depends if your rich or not, you can still get volume on the MHI, the issue is that we are 1-2 seconds from the HK exchange in sydney so fast trading is difficult. TH would know more.
2b. Charts should go to 1815 aest, check time constraints on your charts parameters. It works for me.

3. stw-sgx is traded by some and I have it on my Asian chartbook, it doesnt move too far from the k200. And it does run into the night to about 1 am I think.

4. I use IB linked with Sierra Charts and it works well. 
Your stwsgx chart has false ticks way outside the range. This sometimes happens when you download old IB data. 
STI, I dont know about but try June or it may just not be traded much.
SGXNK and all the nikkei futures are on 3 monthly rollovers, so you need the june contract.
SGXNKM I dont think is traded, just dead i think, but could be wrong.
Good luck.


----------



## pauleyh

Thanks very much Broadway, really appreciate your taking the time. Yes, my chart session settings were wrong so thanks for confirming.

One follow up question if I may - 

1. What data feed do you use for K200 futures/options? I'm finding IB unreliable and eSignal doesn't supply Korean futures data as yet - so am lost for a K200  data feed. 

Thanks again, Pauley.


----------



## nomore4s

pauleyh said:


> Thanks very much Broadway, really appreciate your taking the time. Yes, my chart session settings were wrong so thanks for confirming.
> 
> One follow up question if I may -
> 
> 1. What data feed do you use for K200 futures/options? I'm finding IB unreliable and eSignal doesn't supply Korean futures data as yet - so am lost for a K200  data feed.
> 
> Thanks again, Pauley.




I have no problems with my feed from IB for K200, what are the issues you are having?


----------



## pauleyh

Thanks for confirming that nomore4s. TH says the same and suggests it's my IB TWS config so will investigate that. I have a support ticket in with them now. 

Will report back what I learn for others. Thanks again. Cheers. Pauley.


----------



## pauleyh

PS: For those looking at alternatives to using IB's BookTrader I can highly recommend ZeroLineTrader > zerolinetrader.com

Only $120 per year and add some nice features that BookTrader doesn't have so worth the small outlay I find.

I've also used BracketTrader which again has more features than BookTrader and costs around $100 once-off from memory > bracket-trader.com

I use ZeroLineTrader daily now as it has a much cleaner interface and a few more features than BracketTrader.


----------



## Broadway

pauleyh said:


> Thanks very much Broadway, really appreciate your taking the time. Yes, my chart session settings were wrong so thanks for confirming.
> 
> One follow up question if I may -
> 
> 1. What data feed do you use for K200 futures/options? I'm finding IB unreliable and eSignal doesn't supply Korean futures data as yet - so am lost for a K200  data feed.
> 
> Thanks again, Pauley.




IB is fine for the k200, it must be your personal settings.
IB is my data feed for all my futures/stocks/bonds/currencies/stocks/etfs, gives k200 well.
I link IB with sierra charting program to show the k200 and lots of others in real time. I dont use the charts that come with IB, too crappy.
Dont know about options.
Remember IB closes on the weekend.


----------



## pauleyh

Thanks again Broadway, much appreciate you confirming all that information that for me. 

I'll give IB data a run on my TradeStation charting platform and skip eSignal for now given plenty here have no troubles with it. Cheers. Paul.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Just LOFinL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> Just LOFinL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Quick! Buy some!

gotta love the arvo session. Always more juice than the mornings!

I wonder if that makes oppie vols shoot up


----------



## tech/a

You get that T/H?
Short SPI
FTSE and DAX myself.


----------



## skc

skyQuake said:


> Quick! Buy some!
> 
> gotta love the arvo session. Always more juice than the mornings!
> 
> I wonder if that makes oppie vols shoot up




Was there any news during the lunch break? 

It feels real as the moves seem to be worldwide? Short might be the right way to go imo.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> You get that T/H?
> Short SPI
> FTSE and DAX myself.




Actually I bought the arvo open and got in a world of pain on that nasty stop sweep right as I entered on the first bar, about 5:30:15, Worst trade of the year!!

Then flipped on the roll over and did my best trade of the year. LOL lucky son of a B!tch.


----------



## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> Actually I bought the arvo open and got in a world of pain on that nasty stop sweep right as I entered on the first bar, about 5:30:15, Worst trade of the year!!
> 
> Then flipped on the roll over and did my best trade of the year. LOL lucky son of a B!tch.




There is a Father Xmas.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> There is a Father Xmas.




YES, inspite of all that I have done wrong this year


----------



## nomore4s

Trembling Hand said:


> Actually I bought the arvo open and got in a world of pain on that nasty stop sweep right as I entered on the first bar, about 5:30:15, Worst trade of the year!!
> 
> Then flipped on the roll over and did my best trade of the year. LOL lucky son of a B!tch.




Haha good work.

Couldn't trade the arvo session today, looks like I missed a bit of fun


----------



## Trembling Hand

Boy Oh Boy!

Some serious gentlemen getting some business done again today. Guess not surprising considering this set up.


----------



## jonojpsg

Trembling Hand said:


> Boy Oh Boy!
> 
> Some serious gentlemen getting some business done again today. Guess not surprising considering this set up.




Is that a h&s setup you're talking about TH, or am I way off the mark??  Target would be somewhere around 21000...


----------



## Trembling Hand

All I know about a H & S setup is that the thread on ASF about H & S setup trading had a 16% win rate.

I was more talking about the failure to follow other markets up during Dec and nearly 3 months of support just a hand full of points away after yesterdays games.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Very Serious gentleman at play today. Maybe it was Grinch. Enjoy that Santa rally! 

Wondering what other work they can do to other indexes?


----------



## jonojpsg

Trembling Hand said:


> All I know about a H & S setup is that the thread on ASF about H & S setup trading had a 16% win rate.
> 
> I was more talking about the failure to follow other markets up during Dec and nearly 3 months of support just a hand full of points away after yesterdays games.




So if support is broken then potentially the target below looks 21800ish? from early August & mid Sep?? or 22400ish from late Sep??


----------



## Trembling Hand

jonojpsg said:


> So if support is broken then potentially the target below looks 21800ish? from early August & mid Sep?? or 22400ish from late Sep??




Most likely it will rally from here back into the old range. But the shorts are safe this year on this index. Real game to be played out at a later date IMO.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Anyone else getting cr@py Booktrader Data from IB?


----------



## nomore4s

Trembling Hand said:


> Anyone else getting cr@py Booktrader Data from IB?




Having trouble with it today


----------



## Trembling Hand

jonojpsg said:


> So if support is broken then potentially the target below looks 21800ish?






Trembling Hand said:


> Most likely it will rally from here back into the old range.





Hehe. and so it goes.

Merry Xmass.

C ya all next year for more of the same.


----------



## quinn123

Mini-HSI 28/12/2010,

*60 min Chart*

Open with a wide spread down to test support at the previous swing low at 22400 (20/12/2010).  Hidden buying present, close well off the low near the middle of the bar.  Tail probably formed from long stops been hit.  The next bar confirms buying although there is still plenty of supply present, this knocks it sideways.  The 60min medium term downtrend is still in place, although a low volume test at these levels would be significant with the strength in the background.  On to the 3 min chart...





*3 min chart*

The wide spread down bar has to contain some buying.  We get an automatic rally, volume increasing during the rally.  The last three bars of the rally have similar volume but the upside progress is reduced.  The law of effort vs result determines that there must be some selling pressure entering.  This is what knocks it sideways.  Now look at the volume during this downtrend.  There is a divergence with volume decreasing with decreasing price (less interest in the downside).  Multiple tests although not much interest in the upside either.  Tightening ranges forming a hinge, an agreement on price, the market won't like this, looking for further testing/shakeouts/high vol on up bar to confirm strength in background.  Accumulation appears to be taking place, I would wait for the rally to begin before entering.  Have to be careful though, wouldn't take much for a big fish to get a lot of longs covering in this important area (support level).  This area could offer a good entry with a tight stop (give some room to avoid being shaken out), initial target would be around 22800 points from the break of the previous support.  Could go all the way to 23200.  Higher volume up bars with little progress worry me, distribution? Capping?  I would wait for a breakout, then reevaluate whats going on, still assuming its going long though.



 

This is just some observations for fun, I do not have a position.  DYOR


----------



## quinn123

Broke out for around 200 points, starting to roll over now though.  
Sometimes your right sometimes your wrong, as long as I'm right 70% of the time I'm happy


----------



## Trembling Hand

Quinn you are wasting your time doing VSA on the mini. It trades 1/10 of the value traded of the HSI contract. Its the HSI that counts.


----------



## shaunmp

Does anyone know of a broker that has a live demo that will allow real time simulation of the HSI?  In particular to directly practice the kind of trading style demonstrated by someone like Trembling Hand.

I understand I can fund an IB account and go from there, however I'd like to place some live simulated trades in the interim.

Anyone?


----------



## nomore4s

shaunmp said:


> Does anyone know of a broker that has a live demo that will allow real time simulation of the HSI?  In particular to directly practice the kind of trading style demonstrated by someone like Trembling Hand.
> 
> I understand I can fund an IB account and go from there, however I'd like to place some live simulated trades in the interim.
> 
> Anyone?




IB have a demo account available after you open an account with them


----------



## shaunmp

nomore4s said:


> IB have a demo account available after you open an account with them



 Is it accessible prior to funding? Their website says paper trader is available once you fund.


----------



## nomore4s

shaunmp said:


> Is it accessible prior to funding?




No, you need a fully operational account to use the demo account


----------



## crown

Anyone know why HSI not open after lunch?


----------



## Broadway

crown said:


> Anyone know why HSI not open after lunch?




open for me.


----------



## crown

Unusual. IB with NT showed no data all afternoon


----------



## wasterwaster

crown said:


> Unusual. IB with NT showed no data all afternoon




keeep getting stopped out in this market.. too volatile around 7 losses/8 in 3 months so far


----------



## Trembling Hand

Unusual session yesterday.  Taking a 20 point range bar, approx 0.1% of the index, we printed 172 bars for the day. The average for the last 3 months is 140, for the last month since the new year bull run started the avg is only 115. So we have seen a drop in intraday volatility compared to late last year, no surprise there I guess. Then you get the odd day thats way outside what you are use to playing with like yesterday, 172 compared to mostly 100- 120ish.

Interesting to see if we are about to move into another shifting period of range and volatility? One of the reasons fulltime trading F$%^#s you up, just as you get use to something it starts to change.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Oh just as a comparission for those poor fools still trading the SPI .....

0.1% bars your average per day is...... ............... *35* LOL!!


----------



## sinner

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh just as a comparission for those poor fools still trading the SPI .....
> 
> 0.1% bars your average per day is...... ............... *35* LOL!!




Hi TH, glad to have you back as I've got a question about the HSI!

I have backtested ORB style setups across a bunch of markets and find the two that consistently seem to work with various ORB are GBP/USD and also HSI.

In forexland, the explanation for why such strategies work on GBP/USD is the relatively low liquidity compared to EUR/USD. 

I don't understand why HSI specifically seems to work well with this strategy as it seems like quite a liquid index. Is it simply the lower number of hours per session?


----------



## Timmy

sinner said:


> Hi TH, glad to have you back




**** YEAH! 
Great to see you here TH.


----------



## Trembling Hand

sinner said:


> Hi TH, glad to have you back as I've got a question about the HSI!
> 
> I have backtested ORB style setups across a bunch of markets and find the two that consistently seem to work with various ORB are GBP/USD and also HSI.
> 
> In forexland, the explanation for why such strategies work on GBP/USD is the relatively low liquidity compared to EUR/USD.
> 
> I don't understand why HSI specifically seems to work well with this strategy as it seems like quite a liquid index. Is it simply the lower number of hours per session?



The futs instrument itself attracts a bit of volume, about 4 times the spi for example, but the underling index only has 45 or so stocks in it, back of the envelope calculation its about 20% of the market Cap of the ASX200. So the fundamentals of the index is relatively thin. Therefore it moves more like a high priced stock than an Index. 

Plus yes also the condensed trading time without any overnight trading helps to create an action packed session.

Ya might want to have a look also at STW (Taiwan out of SGX) and the Kospi.



Timmy said:


> **** YEAH!
> Great to see you here TH.



 May not be long   Into hosipltal on Wed for a *minor *4 hour heart operation!!!!! The rewards of a life time of daily exercise!! irony!


----------



## Timmy

Trembling Hand said:


> May not be long   Into hosipltal on Wed for a *minor *4 hour heart operation!!!!! The rewards of a life time of daily exercise!! irony!




Geez ... good luck TH - let us know when you wake up ("Nurse, bring me a laptop ... stat" .


----------



## barney

Trembling Hand said:


> May not be long   Into hosipltal on Wed for a *minor *4 hour heart operation!!!!! The rewards of a life time of daily exercise!! irony!




Sorry to hear that TH.   

I'm guessing adrenaline over-production is the culprit?

Don't worry M8, only the good die young .... and you are one bad mother:  

All the best. Hope it goes well on Wednesday .....


----------



## sinner

Trembling Hand said:


> The futs instrument itself attracts a bit of volume, about 4 times the spi for example, but the underling index only has 45 or so stocks in it, back of the envelope calculation its about 20% of the market Cap of the ASX200. So the fundamentals of the index is relatively thin. Therefore it moves more like a high priced stock than an Index.
> 
> Plus yes also the condensed trading time without any overnight trading helps to create an action packed session.
> 
> Ya might want to have a look also at STW (Taiwan out of SGX) and the Kospi.
> 
> May not be long   Into hosipltal on Wed for a *minor *4 hour heart operation!!!!! The rewards of a life time of daily exercise!! irony!




Thanks T/H, a lot to think about in there. I did take a look at the Taiwan index recently, but for a different sort of system.

I definitely notice in markets with smaller trading time that there is more of a sense of "urgency" during the trading, fund managers and the like who have to do certain things at a certain time I guess.

Here is me wishing you good health and speedy recovery for your operation, I hear they are cancelling both trading sessions for the day due to a lack of liquidity


----------



## Trembling Hand

barney said:


> Sorry to hear that TH.
> 
> I'm guessing adrenaline over-production is the culprit?
> 
> Don't worry M8, only the good die young .... and you are one bad mother:
> 
> All the best. Hope it goes well on Wednesday .....




Well I did survive. Just wondering if I should of asked the doc when he said no exercise or anything too strenuous for a month does that include not being short full clip at the bottom when the market goes full tilt up in a few seconds,

LOL that tested the ticker!!!! :freak3:


----------



## barney

Trembling Hand said:


> Well I did survive. Just wondering if I should of asked the doc when he said no exercise or anything too strenuous for a month does that include not being short full clip at the bottom when the market goes full tilt up in a few seconds,
> 
> LOL that tested the ticker!!!! :freak3:





It's plain for all to see now ...... You have a death wish:


Welcome back .... glad it all went well


----------



## tminus

Do you prefer trading the the Mini-HSI (MHI) or the HSI. I looked at the contract size of the mini HSI and it's around ($30KAUD) which is 1/4th the SPI, while the HSI is around (90K).


----------



## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> Do you prefer trading the the Mini-HSI (MHI) or the HSI. I looked at the contract size of the mini HSI and it's around ($30KAUD) which is 1/4th the SPI, while the HSI is around (90K).




Actually the HSI is 130,000 AUD. As of yesterdays close (21500 points X 50 HKD X  0.1197 AUD Exchange rate = $128,671 AUD)

I much much prefer the HSI its 5 times the size and yet trades 2-3 time the amount of contracts. So with that you get mostly tighter spread and less slippage. And the added volume makes it easier to get fills on the bid/ask rather than having to cross the spread.

But the HSI although only a bit bigger than the SPI you get a hell of a lot of bang for your $$'s. I think its good that there is the MHI because its so small it makes a great way to get a feel for the market. Also if your only trading 1 HSI contract you would probably be better off trading 3-5 MHI in some regards as its very hard to trade 1 contract. Your either in or out with 1 contract, not able to take a little profit and let the rest run for an outlier.


----------



## tminus

Thanks for all that info.



Trembling Hand said:


> Also if your only trading 1 HSI contract you would probably be better off trading 3-5 MHI in some regards as its very hard to trade 1 contract. Your either in or out with 1 contract, not able to take a little profit and let the rest run for an outlier.



Is there a name for this type of trading i.e. multiple contracts. I tried this with the FTSE as it fluctuates a lot and had better results than trading 1 contract.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> Is there a name for this type of trading i.e. multiple contracts.




Yeah. Sensible trading


----------



## tminus

Just had a quick run trading multiple contracts on the MHI on a demo IB account (22 trades ,  11 contracts) and made $1066 HKD profit. 
Why doesn't SNFE have a mini SPI with smaller tick sizes like the FTSE and HSI. 

I am having problems with the Booktrader in IB for MHI because the tick sizes are small you can't see the exit and stop orders. I have to use the chart to adjust these.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> Why doesn't SNFE have a mini SPI with smaller tick sizes like the FTSE and HSI.



 Because there is no volume. And I guess the buckshops have that market covered



tminus said:


> I am having problems with the Booktrader in IB for MHI because the tick sizes are small you can't see the exit and stop orders. I have to use the chart to adjust these.



Go to, 
Configure>Booktrader>Setting>Options> "Number of rows to display" 
I have mine at 90.


----------



## tminus

Trembling Hand said:


> Configure>Booktrader>Setting>Options> "Number of rows to display"
> I have mine at 90.




Thanks.

Is there a webpage which lists constituents of the HSI by market share.

Something like FinViz
http://finviz.com/screener.ashx?v=111&f=geo_hongkong&o=-marketcap
but this list only has the companies that are also listed on the American exchanges.


This page lists only the change for the day
http://www.hsi.com.hk/HSI-Net/HSI-Net

I don't want to go through the 48 pages on the Financial times and manually compile this data.
http://markets.ft.com/Research/Markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=5:HKG


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## Trembling Hand

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/cp?s=^HSI


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## Trembling Hand

also

http://www.hsi.com.hk/HSI-Net/static/revamp/contents/en/dl_centre/factsheets/FS_HSIe.pdf

All Honkers,
http://www.hsi.com.hk/HSI-Net/HSI-Net


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## tminus

Trembling Hand said:


> also
> http://www.hsi.com.hk/HSI-Net/static/revamp/contents/en/dl_centre/factsheets/FS_HSIe.pdf



Sweet this is what I was looking for. 
Thanks


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## Trembling Hand

LOL. Just a sleepy old start to the week.


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## tminus

I am baffled by the divergence between the MHI futures and HSI index sometimes you see, I have not seen anything like it on the SPI or the FTSE.
Is there a reason for these?


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## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> I am baffled by the divergence between the MHI futures and HSI index sometimes you see, I have not seen anything like it on the SPI or the FTSE.
> Is there a reason for these?




Nah man something wrong with your data. This chart is HSI with the MHI behind it in BLUE. As you can see just a tick at the extremes thats about it. Not much more than the extra spread of MHI.


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## skyQuake

Think you're looking at the cash Index rather than the HSI futs.


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## tminus

TH both your charts are futures. 



skyQuake said:


> Think you're looking at the cash Index rather than the HSI futs.




That's what I wish to look at, to see if there is any  divergence betwwen HSI (calc index) and MHI futures.


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## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> That's what I wish to look at, to see if there is any  divergence betwwen HSI (calc index) and MHI futures.




OK I didn't realise that was what you where comparing.



tminus said:


> That's what I wish to look at, to see if there is any  divergence between HSI (calc index) and MHI futures.




You can bet mostly that the Index will come down, or up, to meet the Futs. Pretty thin stock market.

Another thing the volume has been down the last two days. Looks like a a bots gone walk-about (hopefully its cr@pped itself) or may have been pulled while we change the trading times.


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## tminus

Trembling Hand said:


> You can bet mostly that the Index will come down, or up, to meet the Futs.



I thought that would happen but it didn't, it kept going down.



> Pretty thin stock market.
> Another thing the volume has been down the last two days. Looks like a a bots gone walk-about (hopefully its cr@pped itself) .



Are there more bots on the HSI futures than the SPI?


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## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> Are there more bots on the HSI futures than the SPI?



 They are everywhere,







But the spi is particularly bad. Compared to what it was pre 2008. I know many of the prop traders moved on because its just locked up.

I don't touch it any more cus I'd rather stick knitting needles in my eyes!!


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## tminus

Trembling Hand said:


> I don't touch it any more cus I'd rather stick knitting needles in my eyes!!




Yeah this morning BHP opens up 1.8% lower and futures only 15 points lower from yesterday's close go up 5 points in 5 minutes, before  dropping 9 points in the next 3 minutes.


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## avion

Welcome back TH. Sorry to hear about your trouble. Tell us it's not the 'love' variety broken heart again, otherwise you will have to be ordained or you will get killed.

Question: Do you have discrepancy between time&sales volume and booktrader volume reporting on HSI. Still having issues with that crappy volume data, grrr...
(it happened when i upgraded to latest version of TWS which was about a week ago)


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## Trembling Hand

avion said:


> Welcome back TH.



 Thanks good to still be here. 



avion said:


> Question: Do you have discrepancy between time&sales volume and booktrader volume reporting on HSI. Still having issues with that crappy volume data, grrr...
> (it happened when i upgraded to latest version of TWS which was about a week ago)



Are you talking about getting large ticks? Like in the many 000s. Almost exactly the amount of volume traded since the last large tick?

Or something else? got a pic?


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## Trembling Hand

tminus said:


> Yeah this morning BHP opens up 1.8% lower and futures only 15 points lower from yesterday's close go up 5 points in 5 minutes, before  dropping 9 points in the next 3 minutes.




Hold on its about to breakout of its 9 point range!!!! 


Nah false alarm everyone can go back to sleep again.


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## avion

Like this, those larger sales are not displaying in dom, maybe as 5 or 6 contract but never as 21's etc...


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## Trembling Hand

avion said:


> Like this, those larger sales are not displaying in dom, maybe as 5 or 6 contract but never as 21's etc...




What server is your primary one? I had a problem about 6 months ago where I was getting ticks through the API that were many thousands. Took IB about 6 months to fix it and only after I went ballistic. 

I don't use their charting or T & S, just Booktrader. All my charting data comes through their API which I found out is different than what is within TWS. So short answer I haven't noticed it. 

Just a warning if you submit a problem ticket with IB and they say "sorry we couldn't replicate the problem" make sure they are looking at the same data from the same primary server. As most of the tech support are US based and what comes out of the HK servers can be different, which was ultimately what they recognised and fixed my problem.


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## avion

I am defenetly with HK server. I've checked twice. I may have to ring them again...

Thanks for your help. Good luck today.


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## Trembling Hand

Two months of longs now in a world of pain on the HHI and HSI not looking much better.


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## ThingyMajiggy

Anyone traded the SGX Taiwan index or the Nifty much before? What are they like compared to the SPI or Seng?


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## Trembling Hand

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Anyone traded the SGX Taiwan index or the Nifty much before? What are they like compared to the SPI or Seng?




Yeah I have a play every now and again on the STW (Taiwan). But nothing like the HSI  but MUCH better than the SPI X 100000. I find you get a lot of action in just a few 5 min bars then it just chops around a few ticks for most of the day. 

Nifty too thin. Have a look every now and again but have never done a trade.

I reckon the sweet spot for Asian indexes is the Kospi. The ES of Asia. 

Why you looking at having a dip?


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## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> Yeah I have a play every now and again on the STW (Taiwan). But nothing like the HSI  but MUCH better than the SPI X 100000. I find you get a lot of action in just a few 5 min bars then it just chops around a few ticks for most of the day.
> 
> Nifty too thin. Have a look every now and again but have never done a trade.
> 
> I reckon the sweet spot for Asian indexes is the Kospi. The ES of Asia.
> 
> Why you looking at having a dip?




Yeah had a look today at the Taiwan, was surprised how thick it was actually, but it seems to die off pretty quick after the opening few minutes. yeah nifty was really thin. 

You done much on the Kospi? I've had a look at that a couple times too, though it seems unpopular here for some reason. 

Ahh just curious, doing evenings/nights takes it toll sometimes, plus latency would be a little better.


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## Trembling Hand

Boy! I take a few days off and look what happens.......




What was that about?


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## Trembling Hand

Anyone else trading this thing regularly? Seems since we topped out on the14th of March its undergone something of a shift in how its moving intraday. Seems far more free flowing.  

Hopefully one of those evil Arb Bots blew up. :vader:


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## Trembling Hand

Well that was the slowest hour on the Seng for ..... a coupla years? :horse:

Holiday mode already. (closed tomorrow)


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## CanOz

Trembling Hand said:


> I reckon the sweet spot for Asian indexes is the Kospi.




Agree, but no data on it from Esignal yet....and I reckon it's an Asian step-brother to the TF!

CanOz


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## CanOz

It seems the HSI is getting gappy again between the AM and PM sessions....Does anyone trade the AM/PM session gaps?

CanOz


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## CanOz

Is it just me or does the HKFE change their hours frequently. I thought they just stated the afternoon session 30 minutes earlier but now i see they're back to normal again?

Also, i see they've agreed to start another evening session from 5-11 pm. Why the heck wouldn't they just run through until the morning?

CanOz


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## CanOz

The beginnings of a GAP study on the HSI...


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## fiftyeight

Awesome stuff CanOz.

Where did you source the data?


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Awesome stuff CanOz.
> 
> Where did you source the data?




Its my data, the analysis was done by an eLancer i hired.


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## fiftyeight

The first graph you posted, is that intraday gaps?


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## ThingyMajiggy

Is that showing that Monday gaps less frequently and smaller than the rest of the days? If so, that's bizarre, would've thought Monday would be the worst for gaps since we basically have an entire session in Europe and US that it has to take in before it opens again on Monday, plus whatever happens over the weekends.


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## CanOz

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Is that showing that Monday gaps less frequently and smaller than the rest of the days? If so, that's bizarre, would've thought Monday would be the worst for gaps since we basically have an entire session in Europe and US that it has to take in before it opens again on Monday, plus whatever happens over the weekends.




Too right Sam, thanks for pointing that out. Can't be right...


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## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> Too right Sam, thanks for pointing that out. Can't be right...




Is this sarcastic? Smells like it 

I am actually genuinely surprised, wasn't having a go(if you took my post the wrong way).


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## fiftyeight

Yeah I also found that a bit odd?

Referring to my my previous post for example, what is a frequency of 7 on the 1/10/2015? Where there 7 gaps that day? 

How did you define a gap?


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## CanOz

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Is this sarcastic? Smells like it
> 
> I am actually genuinely surprised, wasn't having a go(if you took my post the wrong way).




Err, no. I was being genuine.


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Yeah I also found that a bit odd?
> 
> Referring to my my previous post for example, what is a frequency of 7 on the 1/10/2015? Where there 7 gaps that day?
> 
> How did you define a gap?




Let me get through this, i was out of contact with my eLancer for a few days. 

Seriously appreciate the feedback, all of this is useful to get the study correct before i move onto the other markets...


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## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> Err, no. I was being genuine.




Ok all good  My bad!


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## CanOz

Whoa....hold the presses!!! I've got long term continuous historical HKFE data from Ninjatraders historical data servers!!!


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## fiftyeight

Awesome.

AMP becoming much more friendly to the asain markets


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## CanOz

Ok, here's what i can see is happening....NT is providing historical continuous back adjusted data for HKFE products. I have it on my chart back 1050 days and i'll try to see what the maximum is. I have chenged my IB account settings to get histoircal data from external sources and this seems to be doing the trick as i'm not getting any crappy errors from IB. I have level II data from IB into my DOM.

This is a game changer for me, only last night i was making contingency plans for trading Europe again.


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## fiftyeight

So historical from AMP, and live from IB?

Is AMP planning on offering live at some stage and this is the first step?


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> So historical from AMP, and live from IB?
> 
> Is AMP planning on offering live at some stage and this is the first step?




No, buy Phillip futures are offering something....got to confirm...sent a note to them


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## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> No, buy Phillip futures are offering something....got to confirm...sent a note to them




Ahhhhhh, just after I closed my account haha


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Ahhhhhh, just after I closed my account haha




According to NT's support, they do have continuous contracts for the HKFE products (at least for the HHI and HSI) now. 

This makes back testing ideas/statistics etc., and long term composites very doable now...

It seems Philllip Futures are supporting the contracts through NT as well for some grandfathered dual brokerage holders, but they don't have servers in Sydney, according to their sales rep...Think i'll have to stick with IB for now.


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## CanOz

Some nice profiles on the HHI....CGQ data through Macquarie. No history unfortunately, just have to build it.


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## fiftyeight

You trading this now with reference to other charts for longer term levels? Or just collecting data for now until you have enough data?


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## CanOz

Yes, I've been taking a few trades, just on profile patterns such as ledges, spike and channels...

Also, I've got a custom session template for the whole 24 hour period. The interesting thing is how the overnight session seems to have relevance now to the daily action....at least on the week or so i have recorded so far. There are many opportunities created by the gaps alone...


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## CanOz

HHI and the HSI poised for higher prices. Hoping that it doesn't gap above the small consolidation first though...


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## Joules MM1

fakeout, outside-down day thingy ?


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## CanOz

Yeah big reversal after an open drive....


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## CanOz

Finally had some time to take a few trades on this GAP fill attempt today on the HHI
	

		
			
		

		
	









	

		
			
		

		
	
 ...I liked the way it staged before it took out the HOD and went onto Fill the GAP. I didn't get all the move as i was cooking dinner by the time it started to weaken before the first pullback...


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## CanOz

European hours are really not the best hours to be trading. Everything at the moment is so US/Asia centric . The hkfe indices are back with a vengeance. The dax and bund are like watching paint dry...


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## CanOz

I recently discovered historical HKEX tick data on their site. It’s csv format and can be downloaded daily with up to five years total. I’m currently getting live data and execution through Macquarie Futures and CQG, but no historical.

Here is the link, I haven’t had time to try the sample data yet. Please let me know if anyone is successful with this in nt8.

https://www.hkex.com.hk/eng/ods/his...=PhAvfBXGgpULgjKaOUj4eRKT/ZJryx5j4jPhsTkZnxI=


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## CanOz

AMP clearing is now offering HKEX markets!


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## CanOz

Fiftyeight has put me onto tradingview, they've got all the markets and volume profiles as well.


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