# Unemployed sinner



## sinner (8 October 2015)

Hello team,

As some of you may know, I have left my previous role and am taking a break from employment. 

I have a bunch of job offers on the table already to continue working in my current field (IT) including one to lead a new team here in AU.

But I would like to take this chance to put my hand up for any finance related work that is available. I had an (IT role) interview with a large European market maker recently for their Sydney office and came pretty close, it was down to me and one other candidate and they picked the other guy based on the results of some sort of HR induced personality quiz.

I can trade. But I also think I would make a pretty good analyst, researcher, coder, etc because I can "speak both languages" in terms of finance and computer science.

Looking for ~$150k and preferably work remotely but will happily go to an office in Sydney if the job is right. If you know anything available, please let me know.


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## kid hustlr (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Hello team,
> 
> As some of you may know, I have left my previous role and am taking a break from employment.
> 
> ...




The obvious MM choices like SIG Optiver etc don't interest you?


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## sinner (8 October 2015)

kid hustlr said:


> The obvious MM choices like SIG Optiver etc don't interest you?




Only peripherally interested in MM. They want math nerds and physics PhD types from what I have seen and interviews at similar places I have been through.

I am definitely not the math nerd type.

As an example of roles interesting me I'd prefer to work for a hedge fund or investment company like Bronte Capital (yes, I have emailed John  ). I'm far more interested in research, analysis and using computer science to automate/optimise trading/research/analysis.


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## Gringotts Bank (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Only peripherally interested in MM. They want math nerds and physics PhD types from what I have seen and interviews at similar places I have been through.
> 
> I am definitely not the math nerd type.
> 
> As an example of roles interesting me I'd prefer to work for a hedge fund or investment company like Bronte Capital (yes, I have emailed John  ). I'm far more interested in research, analysis and using computer science to automate/optimise trading/research/analysis.




Bronte were advertising about 3 months ago.  They sounded like the sort of company where if you had something to offer, and were unconventional enough, they'd look at it any time.


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## sinner (8 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Bronte were advertising about 3 months ago.




Yep I know. I actually scored an interview with them in 2013 for the first of same position but stupidly rescinded out of loyalty to my (now previous) employer. 

Unfortunately I didn't resign in time to notice the new advertisement and it looks like they are after another graduate role (which would have been fine for me in 2013)  but now I'm looking for a little more.

Actually just got a reply from John Hempton said they are not hiring at the moment.


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## kid hustlr (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Only peripherally interested in MM. They want math nerds and physics PhD types from what I have seen and interviews at similar places I have been through.
> 
> *I am definitely not the math nerd type.*
> 
> As an example of roles interesting me I'd prefer to work for a hedge fund or investment company like Bronte Capital (yes, I have emailed John  ). I'm far more interested in research, analysis and using computer science to automate/optimise trading/research/analysis.






Couldn't fool me!

In all seriousness that makes sense - I'd be interested to hear how you go landing a hedge fund gig in Sydney there just doesn't seem like that many around.


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## CanOz (8 October 2015)

Sinner, have you ever thought about starting your own consulting business? I mean i believe you have a passion and talent for quantitative type studies, perhaps you could offer these studies at a subscription? Sort of a "sinner's" Quantitative edges type service. I'd pay for that....


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## tech/a (8 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> Sinner, have you ever thought about starting your own consulting business? I mean i believe you have a passion and talent for quantitative type studies, perhaps you could offer these studies at a subscription? Sort of a "sinner's" Quantitative edges type service. I'd pay for that....




Me too.

Id actually trust the guy!

I agree CanOz
Sinner should seriously look at it.
The industry is sadly lacking something different.
I'm sure with Sinners skills he could devise---something very worthwhile and different.

These days the internet can open many doors.
Then they'll come looking for you!

There is one really big benefit from being self employed I never dreamed of when I was starting out.
When your at the age where no one wants you and your the one that is being moved on because a new improved Sinner has come along.
Seriously I'm the one saying in my own organisation that we need new younger blood---Id hate to be looking for a job at even 10 yrs younger than my age.


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## poverty (8 October 2015)

I know a guy in Sydney who can help.  Just meet him at Paramatta Mosque to pick up the car.


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## DeepState (8 October 2015)

What an opportunity for you to re-assess.  Optiver has a bunch of roles currently going which would require your skills and experience.  Get in, get started and go from there.  Same deal with Macquarie, who are currently looking for a software engineer for their FX trading team.  Smallish step from there to something directly market facing....if you can handle the thugs on the desk.  

What I have learned is that this business is very hard to enter and entry is partly meritocracy, partly backing yourself in very hard, partly because you just look like the kind of guy who should be managing money and partly outright luck.  Once typecast as not a money guy, it's hard to break the rut. There are also heaps of money guys around to choose from when a role crops up.  However, one way to break in is to be physically co-located to where money is run by any means.  Greed conquers all of these prejudices.  If you are good, the alpha male of the minute will want you on the team. Because they are time compressed, they will choose someone within immediate physical reach when the pressure ramps up.

I have seen this happen over and over again.  Librarians become CEO's of massive investment firms: see Carol Galley.

In order to get the break, right place - right time.  You have some influence about being in the right place. Then, it's only a matter of time.

ATB.


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## sinner (8 October 2015)

Thanks for the posts guys and double thanks to the people who PMd me.

Shortly after I started this thread one of my offers upped their offer to something too good to pass up, so it looks like for now I will be sticking with IT.

Hadn't really considered starting my own subscription or anything like that before. It's definitely something to consider. I'll be sure to let Can and tech know if I start something like that


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## DeepState (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Thanks for the posts guys and double thanks to the people who PMd me.
> 
> Shortly after I started this thread one of my offers upped their offer to something too good to pass up, so it looks like for now I will be sticking with IT.
> 
> Hadn't really considered starting my own subscription or anything like that before. It's definitely something to consider. I'll be sure to let Can and tech know if I start something like that




With the employment number up by one, the RBA will raise rates at the next meeting.  Congrats.


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## kid hustlr (8 October 2015)

Good old capitalism


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## sinner (8 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> With the employment number up by one, the RBA will raise rates at the next meeting.  Congrats.




Still got a few weeks of holidays while they figure out how to hire an Aussie :


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## qldfrog (8 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> With the employment number up by one, the RBA will raise rates at the next meeting.  Congrats.



nope, I just levelled the average to stationary!!!


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## DeepState (8 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> nope, I just levelled the average to stationary!!!




[Reuters 20:31 AEDST 8 Oct 2015] UPDATE: 6-month Australian swap rates just fell 15bps in London trading on news that the labour market in Queensland was weaker than consensus estimates had forecast.  A survey of labour force economists by FactSet reveals that 28 forecasts for the October survey, of 35, were revised downwards by 1 in the last hour.  This figure had been revised upward by 1 by the same economists shortly before, causing disruption in a market already plagued by reduced liquidity.

CDS spreads at Bank of America have blown out 35bps on rumours of a major hedge fund meeting difficulties with covering repo positions collateralised by AUD interest rate swaps with Goldman.  CEO of BasisPoint Capital, John Merriweather, commented "We should have bloody hired Sinner, what the heck did these Nobel/PhD rocket scientist types know anyway.  Dammit.  Yet again."

When asked about his plans for the future, Merriweather spurted "Start a freakin' newsletter."


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## tech/a (8 October 2015)

That's really funny!


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## barney (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> it looks like for now I will be sticking with IT.




Bugger ..... I was going to offer you a job helping me scrub floors:  ..... with your brains and my incredible good looks we would have been an unbeatable combination!

Congrats on the gig .... and well done on your economically sophisticated postings on ASF; always top shelf stuff!


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## sinner (8 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> CDS spreads at Bank of America have blown out 35bps on rumours of a major hedge fund meeting difficulties with covering repo positions collateralised by AUD interest rate swaps with Goldman.  CEO of BasisPoint Capital, John Merriweather, commented "We should have bloody hired Sinner, what the heck did these Nobel/PhD rocket scientist types know anyway.  Dammit.  Yet again."




BasisPoint, those fools! I tried to tell them, interest rates just won't move without a reduction in the RBA balance sheet or proportional increases in growth but they wouldn't listen.

Now the Great Netting Out Of Derivatives shall begin


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## KnowThePast (9 October 2015)

sinner, we seem to be in the same place at the same time.

I am also now trying to break into something a bit different from IT in investment banking. I am in London - lots more hedge funds and bank but plenty of very competent people around too.

The challenging bit common to both of us (I assume), is that we've reached good position in our professions. Starting something else, even if similar, is difficult to find without taking a pay cut.

I have an interview on Tue, so wish me luck.


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## galumay (9 October 2015)

KnowThePast said:


> sinner, we seem to be in the same place at the same time.
> 
> I am also now trying to break into something a bit different from IT in investment banking. I am in London - lots more hedge funds and bank but plenty of very competent people around too.
> 
> ...




I wish you luck too, KNP.

I will need a bit myself, return to Aus next week when my 'gap year' ends and will have to look around for something to do!

After 20 years in one job and at my age its a new experience, not sure what I will end up doing - I have a couple of business opportunities to explore and I dont think I want to work full time permanent again.


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## sinner (9 October 2015)

Good look KTP! Keep us updated 



> The challenging bit common to both of us (I assume), is that we've reached good position in our professions. Starting something else, even if similar, is difficult to find without taking a pay cut.




I almost had it in the bag, but got screwed by the HR quiz apparently!

Also, one very kind soul on this forum made me a pretty amazing offer thanks to this thread, so it can happen!

Good luck to galumay as well, always enjoy your posts buddy


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## McLovin (9 October 2015)

KnowThePast said:


> I have an interview on Tue, so wish me luck.




Good luck, ktp.

Nice work, sinner on landing the new gig.


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## mazzatelli (9 October 2015)

It's tough everywhere, but for someone with your knowledge and aptitude - I'd highly recommend going overseas (HK, Singapore, London) and try your hand. No guarantees - but you are young and enthusiastic. 

As much as I love home, trading and asset management opportunities that you'd like simply don't exist.


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## Trembling Hand (9 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> It's tough everywhere, but for someone with your knowledge and aptitude - I'd highly recommend going overseas (HK, Singapore, London) and try your hand. No guarantees - but you are young and enthusiastic.



 I'd skip HK if you value lungs and health. Especially if you like to exercise.

http://aqicn.org/city/hongkong/



mazzatelli said:


> As much as I love home, trading and asset management opportunities that you'd like simply don't exist.




Yeah I agree. Take the shot and you will not regret changing career for something you spend most of your spare time doing as an interest.

See my signature


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## DeepState (9 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> As much as I love home, trading and asset management opportunities that you'd like simply don't exist.




Uh...yes, they do.

Plato, Vinva, BlackRock, Acadian, SSGA, Macquarie, ...and many others...just the buy-side and in Sydney.  Doing the sort of stuff Sinner is in to.  They run long only and hedge.

On prop trading, the capital requirements have pushed a lot of that out off bank balance sheets.  However, it is evident that there are a few here funded by independent shops.  Also, market making capability is coming back in credit which is a highly specialised area in Australia.  This type of book is hard to hedge making skilled analysts pretty valuable.

With capital requirements for mortgages being priced even higher by APRA, the market for RMBS will also thicken.    

People in Australia, who do well, tend to run regional jobs.  So they may travel to Hong Kong etc.
Plato: Hamson and Kennedy ran Asia Pac roles at prior employers
Vinva: Waked used to run the world the guys now run regional money
BlackRock: McCorry used to be global head of fixed income research for the GMSG.
SSGA: Engel is global head of quant equity in Asia Pac and global head of low-vol.

etc..

The jobs exist and you can do sensationally well in Australia.


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## mazzatelli (9 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> Uh...yes, they do.
> 
> Plato, Vinva, BlackRock, Acadian, SSGA, Macquarie, ...and many others...just the buy-side and in Sydney.  Doing the sort of stuff Sinner is in to.  They run long only and hedge.
> 
> ...




You're comparing someone like e.g. McCorry who's been there nearly 2 decades to someone like Sinner with no experience in finance yet to waltz into an operation like Blackrock?


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## DeepState (9 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> You're comparing someone like e.g. McCorry who's been there nearly 2 decades to someone like Sinner with no experience in finance yet to waltz into an operation like Blackrock?




McCorry started investment management with BGI Aust in 1997. Zero direct experience, in Sydney. A native of Detroit. No big name university. Working as an academic in an Australian investment industry research group. So, Yes.  I am.  Every one begins like this...with nothing much to their names.

A lot of quants do not come from finance backgrounds. Lots come from Engineering and Computer Science.  One of the hottest areas right now is natural language processing and unstructured text research.  It's about data handling and running regressions.  People who program fraud detection systems in CBA can do this work.  BlackRock recently hired a guy out of Google to lead this effort.  Zero finance experience. And so it goes.

Renaissance Capital hired heapa of people from way outside the industry.

Others running money in Aust came from Aerospace Engineering and also from Cochlear. Zero prior investment experience....

These jobs exist.  They hire. Everyone starts from zero.


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## sinner (9 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> It's tough everywhere, but for someone with your knowledge and aptitude - I'd highly recommend going overseas (HK, Singapore, London) and try your hand. No guarantees - but you are young and enthusiastic.
> 
> As much as I love home, trading and asset management opportunities that you'd like simply don't exist.




Hey mazza, gladdens my little heart every time I see you post. 

:1luvu:

Did you know the reason for this thread is because I was going through old PMs to clean them up and found some words of encouragement from you from yonks ago?



> Yeah I agree. Take the shot and you will not regret changing career for something you spend most of your spare time doing as an interest.






> These jobs exist. They hire. Everyone starts from zero.




Y'all are making me feel a little bad for taking the IT offer  but too good to pass up at this point for me. 

But rest assured that these words lay heavy on my mind and I will be coming back to this.



> One of the hottest areas right now is natural language processing and unstructured text research.




This is something on my mind every single time I go through annual reports that get released as PDFs..doesn't seem like companies want to release their cashflow, balance sheets, etc in a standardised database or table format, especially smaller companies who seem to release in often strange and obscure formatting. 

Potentially good program idea to make something that trawls them and reads the data out into a standardised format.


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## mazzatelli (10 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Hey mazza, gladdens my little heart every time I see you post.
> 
> :1luvu:
> 
> Did you know the reason for this thread is because I was going through old PMs to clean them up and found some words of encouragement from you from yonks ago?




Love you too, hope it is all still going well! :1luvu:



DeepState said:


> McCorry started investment management with BGI Aust in 1997. Zero direct experience, in Sydney. A native of Detroit. No big name university. Working as an academic in an Australian investment industry research group. So, Yes.  I am.  Every one begins like this...with nothing much to their names.
> 
> A lot of quants do not come from finance backgrounds. Lots come from Engineering and Computer Science.  One of the hottest areas right now is natural language processing and unstructured text research.  It's about data handling and running regressions.  People who program fraud detection systems in CBA can do this work.  BlackRock recently hired a guy out of Google to lead this effort.  Zero finance experience. And so it goes.
> 
> ...




My original point is he has more opportunities and scope overseas than in Sydney. 

As above years ago I spoke to Sinner about his background and said to him if anything it would be an asset in finance. No, from an objective point of view I don't rate the chances of him getting a role at Blackrock right now if he applied, but wouldn't be surprised if he did - not because he doesn't have the intelligence or aptitude but the job market in Sydney is prioritizing relevant experience over potential and has been for some years now. I know far too many in his situation who can't make the transition back home, there are some that do - but more failures than successes.

So no sh*t, everyone starts from zero and they hire - but is it worth his time waiting for that role in Sydney or going abroad? You seem to be suggesting to me it is.


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## DeepState (10 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> My original point is he has more opportunities and scope overseas than in Sydney.
> 
> As above years ago I spoke to Sinner about his background and said to him if anything it would be an asset in finance. No, from an objective point of view I don't rate the chances of him getting a role at Blackrock right now if he applied, but wouldn't be surprised if he did - not because he doesn't have the intelligence or aptitude but the job market in Sydney is prioritizing relevant experience over potential and has been for some years now. I know far too many in his situation who can't make the transition back home, there are some that do - but more failures than successes.
> 
> So no sh*t, everyone starts from zero and they hire - but is it worth his time waiting for that role in Sydney or going abroad? You seem to be suggesting to me it is.




The world is much bigger than Sydney.  There will obviously be more roles available with more variety than that available in Sydney.  There will also be a stack more competition for them. Is there some reason you think that the rest of the world is not also prioritising relevant experience over potential?  That the hiring standards are somehow more  'adventurous'?

My original response was to your original assertion that these jobs don't exist in Australia. 



mazzatelli said:


> As much as I love home, trading and asset management opportunities that you'd like simply don't exist.




They absolutely and categorically do.  

My reply was not in response to some now revised recollection of an original assertion that there was more opportunity and scope overseas.



mazzatelli said:


> My original point is he has more opportunities and scope overseas than in Sydney.





So, Sinner can spend his time waiting in Australia or he can spend his time waiting in London...with no relevant experience, probably no blue blood connections, competing against world class and experienced candidates with MBAs from INSEAD, PHDs from MIT, firsts in History from Cambridge who were Captain of Boats, internships with Soros, IT backgrounds from Sydney being told to go to London where the opportunities are so much easier to secure for the rare and excellent jobs that he really seeks.  By all means do so.  However it is far from necessary or appropriate to do so on the belief that the opportunities do not exist in Australia and are somehow more readily available in the other major financial centres for the kinds of pointy end jobs that Sinner is looking for.

Sinner has chosen to remain in IT.  The guy is clearly clued up.  I do not know how he interviews or how he really manages money or even if that's the right gig for him despite his intelligence and knowledge.  However, if he wants it and has the right dimensions of talent to make it overseas, he will also have it here and the way 'in' when not hired straight out of graduation from your Bachelor, Masters or PhD is arguably more flexible here in Australia than it is in highly siloed organisations that are more pervasive amongst the larger asset managers or brokerages in the large centres.  Sinner is not in line for those entry points unless he chooses to undertake an MBA or something like it.  For smaller shops, he will face the same situation of competing against 200 applicants for an entry level equity analyst role. One hundred and fifty of which will have investment background somewhere, a handful of which can also code eloquently.

In his shoes, it is not super clear to me that he should go offshore looking for a break into asset management.  The ideal long term pathway could well be to break in here first and then move offshore. 

Sinner would not get a gig if he applied to BlackRock right now because there is nothing going right this second and the team is stable.  However, look inside McCorry's own team and you will find a stack of members who came up from back office, electronic engineering, management consulting, maths academia...highlighting that lateral entry in Australia post the major recruiting cycles is highly viable and, in Sinner's position, possibly provides a greater chance of entry than from within the major centres.  He has made a choice to continue along the path of IT.  The longer this goes, the bigger the silo he will build for himself to ultimately making the switch.  It is not because entry points are not available.  They are.  In Sydney.  They are not super-rare.


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## DeepState (10 October 2015)

sinner said:


> This is something on my mind every single time I go through annual reports that get released as PDFs..doesn't seem like companies want to release their cashflow, balance sheets, etc in a standardised database or table format, especially smaller companies who seem to release in often strange and obscure formatting.
> 
> Potentially good program idea to make something that trawls them and reads the data out into a standardised format.




All the non-standard financial data is hand-coded into databases by teams of MBA types living in the Philippines, India...

The game is to move away from the financials and get into the text written, teleconference contents, Tweets made, Google searches called, blog posts written.... and figure out which ones matter and how they influence stock prices.

It's totally awesome and I suspect you'd dig it.


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## qldfrog (10 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> The jobs exist and you can do sensationally well in Australia.



in Sydney we should say (and you say it later DS) 
With an IT background, I thought about moving into finance (and I mean programming for system, detecting correlation, big data, etc not accounting)  a decade or so ago, but this would have implied a move to Sydney indeed


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## mazzatelli (10 October 2015)

DeepState said:


> They absolutely and categorically do.
> 
> My reply was not in response to some now revised recollection of an original assertion that there was more opportunity and scope overseas



I admit original phrasing was poorly worded.



> So, Sinner can spend his time waiting in Australia or he can spend his time waiting in London...with no relevant experience, probably no blue blood connections, competing against world class and experienced candidates with MBAs from INSEAD, PHDs from MIT, firsts in History from Cambridge who were Captain of Boats, internships with Soros, IT backgrounds from Sydney being told to go to London where the opportunities are so much easier to secure for the rare and excellent jobs that he really seeks.  By all means do so.  However it is far from necessary or appropriate to do so on the belief that the opportunities do not exist in Australia and are somehow more readily available in the other major financial centres for the kinds of pointy end jobs that Sinner is looking for.



I've been in London for past few years and there are numerous examples of people without red brick universities to their name gaining these opportunities. It was one of my primary concerns when I first came over whether my postgrad qualifications from an Australian uni would be considered against the likes from Cambridge and Oxford. It is not as large a barrier as many would think. I've interviewed people for roles here and there are many others like me who have come from abroad to realize their potential, so there is empathy for certain candidates. 

Not Sinner's space, but a third of traders on the FX exotics desks (GEM, G10) where I work have middle office backgrounds and not originally from London.  In the Sydney branch no exotics desk exists and the likelihood of moving from MO to FO would be extremely unlikely. 

I would say I spoke to sinner maybe 2-3 years ago about moving in to finance and after a long break from these forums, he is still in IT (not a bad thing). You cite Blackrock and agreed there is nothing now for hiring - so technically the roles exist but is the opportunity available now? And if not now, how long to wait. The longer he leaves it the less favourable it is - yes, aware that some people break in at a later age.

However, I do wish Sinner all the best with the new role!


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## DeepState (13 October 2015)

mazzatelli said:


> I admit original phrasing was poorly worded.
> 
> 
> I've been in London for past few years and there are numerous examples of people without red brick universities to their name gaining these opportunities. It was one of my primary concerns when I first came over whether my postgrad qualifications from an Australian uni would be considered against the likes from Cambridge and Oxford. It is not as large a barrier as many would think. I've interviewed people for roles here and there are many others like me who have come from abroad to realize their potential, so there is empathy for certain candidates.
> ...




I'm really glad you've found a footing in the UK. It's a pity that Aust could not offer the opportunities you wanted or saw fit to stay for.  My experience is that Aussies who have the urge, skills, outlook or whatever to try their hand in the UK or US seem to do remarkably well on average.  Maybe Aussies are awesome.  Maybe the people who make the step and back themselves in to head offshore have a little something else going for them.  Maybe the same applies to some of those drawn to the big cities from abroad.

In any individual situation, anything can happen in relation to job opportunities.  Given your strength in options has been demonstrated, I guess we can agree that the likelihood is not zero for getting a job that Sinner wants on either continent.  

In terms of timing, who knows.  It depends on Sinner and a bunch of other things.  Really, the only assertion I am making is that the jobs exist in Aust and he can get them if he is good and wants it to the point of accepting a backstep if needed.  In the past, I have worked with, hired and run teams in Aust whose backgrounds included Computer Science, Electronic Engineering, Chemical Engineering, History, Astrophysics and Agriculture and that's just the first half of the alphabet not related to economics/finance.  Sinner is looking for an alpha style role by the looks of things, quite close to the front line if not right at it.  These people were at that line.

These jobs don't come up daily, but the flow of opportunity to get to this point is quite regular. It is a smaller market, but there is also less competition to boot. Sydney has become highly concentrated as the hub for funds management, at the expense of Melbourne.  So whilst the siren call from London might be strong, if he is prepared to sacrifice living in Sydney for the somewhat less comfortable life in London, he might choose to cut in by taking a role with a reasonable chance of a lateral transfer here.  At this time, it would appear that the call of a pay rise continues to exceed the call to enter investment management. 

Each of our major banks here also run FX desks. I feel reasonably confident that their London based operations would offer similarly sparse ability to move from back office to front as a mirror to your firm's example.

The jobs are here.  But they are also in London.  I think the timing is more up to Sinner than anything else we might be discussing.  

ATB Sinner.


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