# Worked it out yet?



## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Everyone worked out that the asx is a scam to aid the top 5% whilst you seem to make bad call after bad call?

I went cash, what a great call it turned out to be too.
No doubt there will be plenty of traders who think Im just whinging, but why wouldnt they?, their jobs depend on a steady flow of new cash losers fed to them from banks and various trading sites.
No its a mugs game, and if I could encourage every Australian with less that 100k to trade, to withdraw from the market completely, I have done something good.

Short term this market is a dead set honest cash burner, stop trying to get rich and put your money into Australian infrastructure, not the asx racetrack/casino...

Not convinced? try this - Pick any stock on the asx today that sells below $1 currently, and it will lose at least 50% of its value from the moment of your purchase, and will not move north till you sell at a loss.....had any of those?
Its a scam thats gotten out of control and will implode...

Buyer beware, spend cash on your loved ones, thats always proven to be a better investment to me..........

StockAs - Banned by choice from the competition forums.....


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

What about if you can get solid companies with good earnings history and solid management that is paying >8% yeild (obviously depends on purchase price) in dividends year in year out, plus the prosepct of some possible capital gains?

Slow and steady is always a good option. You dont need $100k to be able to do that.


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## MrBurns (6 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> What about if you can get solid companies with good earnings history and solid management that is paying >8% yeild do that.




You mean like Allco ? Was $15 then 14c now zero........


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> You mean like Allco ? Was $15 then 14c now zero........




No. I mean companies that have INCOME and dont rely of revaluations to make their 'profits'. Companies with good interest cover etc. Basic fundamentally sound companies.

If you cant understand how the business works (Allco, MFS, BNB, even Mac Bank) dont invest in it...


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## Wysiwyg (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Everyone worked out that the asx is a scam to aid the top 5% whilst you seem to make bad call after bad call?
> 
> I went cash, what a great call it turned out to be too.




The bull run was over a while back now and yet the suggestion of bad calls is "someone elses fault"??

When we make wrong choices it is our fault!I personally have made monumental errors of judgement due to lack of experience and poor research.If there is some foul play going on then walk away (with your money) and learn from the experience.


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## MrBurns (6 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> No. I mean companies that have INCOME and dont rely of revaluations to make their 'profits'. Companies with good interest cover etc. Basic fundamentally sound companies.
> 
> If you cant understand how the business works (Allco, MFS, BNB, even Mac Bank) dont invest in it...




The sound companies you speak of are being revalued right now so how do you know how much they'e worth ? and what they'll be worth next week, ?what's going on hehind closed doors that you aren't told about ?. Property is a better way to go in my opinion.

Shares are all smoke and mirrors to me.

A lot of people thought Allco was ok, they nearly bought Qantas remember ?


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## Bushman (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> and put your money into Australian infrastructure...
> 
> Not convinced? try this - Pick any stock on the asx today that sells below $1 currently, and it will lose at least 50% of its value from the moment of your purchase, and will not move north till you sell at a loss..........




Point 1 - how do you propose Mums and Dads gain access to 'Aussie Infrastructure' if not via the evil share markets? Also, if not equity markets, who will fund this infrastructure? Our stamp duty addled state governments who are about to put their wallets on moth balls? Good luck with that my feathered friend. 

Point 2 - Market cap is what is important, not share price. 

How about starting Aussie Cash Forum? You might make a buck or two out of your pile of cash.  You can link it to the Aussie Knitting Forum...


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> The sound companies you speak of are being revalued right now so how do you know how much they'e worth ?




Thats a question that is different for each person. If you can find something within your risk tolerance and that suits your own criteria, then buy it. As i said, i wont buy co's (for long term holds) that i dont understand how they work/are structured.

If you dont like the risks stocks present then definitely stick with property. Personally i am not in a position to be able to invest in property, plus i do not understand some crucial elements (such as negative gearing) and its hard/impossible to find a positive yeild property so i stick with stocks for now.


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## MrBurns (6 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Thats a question that is different for each person. If you can find something within your risk tolerance and that suits your own criteria, then buy it. As i said, i wont buy co's (for long term holds) that i dont understand how they work/are structured.
> 
> If you dont like the risks stocks present then definitely stick with property. Personally i am not in a position to be able to invest in property, plus i do not understand some crucial elements (such as negative gearing) and its hard/impossible to find a positive yeild property so i stick with stocks for now.





Property is a long term thing unless there's a development edge to it but not in this market, the thing with property it's still there regardless of the market, assuming you aren't heavily geared.

I can never get past the fact that with shares the company can disappear tomorrow, with your money !

No not all of them of course, banks BHP etc but in this climate any of them could be revalued down to who knows what for indefinite periods of time.


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

Wow, what an extremely negative assessment of equities. The  only reason I could believe that you would have such an assessment is that you tried to use the sharemarket to get rich quick and got burnt as a result. 

You make mention that short term the market is a cash burner, whilst this maybe the case for you, long term is another story. Statistics don't lie, and the past has shown us that over the longer term the sharemarket outperforms all other major investment categories.  If you invest in companies with solid fundamentals, management, history(!) it is hard to go wrong.

Re Allco:

Allco finance even at $15 was always a risky proposition as it was only listed 2006, during one of the biggest bulls we have ever seen. Smart investors would have known to only invest in companies with a robust earnings history, which Allco didn't have. Investing in Allco was no different to investing in a brand new luxury gold coast apartment last year, both risky and stupid. That doesn't mean I dont invest in newly listed companies, but I accept the risk/losses that accompanies it.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Bushman, point 1 and 2 are totally not thought out, I'd tell you why, but I think it would honestly be over your head, no offence intended....

As for property, I agree, its SOON to be tanked and attractive, theres your infrastructure access for mums and dads bushman....
The share market is totally not needed IMO.
Market cap reporting is not policed in any way so is 100% manipulated IMO....and i have proof of this activity.
So, all things said, the best advice I could give small cap players is, go cash....

See if Im wrong in 2 months from your current portfolio position....bet Im not.
This is NOT a downramp, rather, a bit of researched friendly advice for any unsure readers out there......
Indecision is expensive, act fast and sure.

StockAs


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## MrBurns (6 November 2008)

sammy84 said:


> Re Allco:
> 
> Allco finance even at $15 was always a risky proposition as it was only listed 2006, during one of the biggest bulls we have ever seen. Smart investors would have known to only invest in companies with a robust earnings history, which Allco didn't have. *Investing in Allco was no different to investing in a brand new luxury gold coast apartment last year*, both risky and stupid. That doesn't mean I dont invest in newly listed companies, but I accept the risk/losses that accompanies it.




I'll take the unit on the gold coast how about you ?


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Market cap reporting is not policed in any way so is 100% manipulated




Can you expand on this point?

Market Cap = # of shares on issue * current price

Its a pretty simple calculation. Dont see how it can be manipulated.


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## mazzatelli1000 (6 November 2008)

Us against the world mentality, when all is not well


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## tech/a (6 November 2008)

What are you blubbering about!

You've been a genius and went cash.
What makes you think others didnt do the same?

If they tried going long in this market 100% of the time they were/are on the wrong side of the market. If you'd have traded short in the previous 5 yrs youd have been broke! 

If you/anyone are going to trade then LEARN HOW TO.
Conspiracy----get a grip---you dont have to trade at a loss you have a choice.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Prawn, you assumption that a market cap figure cant be manipulated shows some inherrant thinking within the box IMO, I do not propose that the actual company figures or policing of them are dicked up, just their display via certain brokers.

Eg - Online Broker A knows the market cap for company B has been downgraded from say, 110m to 56m, all you have to do to manipulate it from this point is just experience some "computer lagg" in updating those online stats for your customers....then you have your seemingly great "fundamentals" and their BULL..IT!!!!!    lol

Yeah?

(Now you're outside the box)

SA


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Tech/a......

How do you breath with your head in the sand so far down.....
Do the papers there say Mccain won?

lol


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Prawn, you assumption that a market cap figure cant be manipulated shows some inherrant thinking within the box IMO, I do not propose that the actual company figures or policing of them are dicked up, just their display via certain brokers.
> 
> Eg - Online Broker A knows the market cap for company B has been downgraded from say, 110m to 56m, all you have to do to manipulate it from this point is just experience some "computer lagg" in updating those online stats for your customers....then you have your seemingly great "fundamentals" and their BULL..IT!!!!!    lol
> 
> ...




unreal


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

MARKET CAP = NUMBER OF SHARES X CURRENT SHARE PRICE , nothin more , nothin less


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Thanks....

I think.


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Prawn, you assumption that a market cap figure cant be manipulated shows some inherrant thinking within the box IMO, I do not propose that the actual company figures or policing of them are dicked up, just their display via certain brokers.
> 
> Eg - Online Broker A knows the market cap for company B has been downgraded from say, 110m to 56m, all you have to do to manipulate it from this point is just experience some "computer lagg" in updating those online stats for your customers....then you have your seemingly great "fundamentals" and their BULL..IT!!!!!    lol
> 
> ...




So in otherwords, those stupid enough to not do their own calculations get sucked in. 

Sounds fair to me...

EDIT - how can a market cap be 'downgraded'??? Its a dynamic figure, every cent move creates a different MC. No wonder you stuck to cash...


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> I'll take the unit on the gold coast how about you ?




Sorry didn't explain my point exactly. Obviously the return on Allco would be a lot less (if they get anything at all). My point was that you can lose a lot of money in either the share market or property is your not wise, so you can't go and blindly label the sharemarket a scam.

Re: Market Cap

I too don't understand how this can be heavily manipulated  
It has always been a good indicator in the past and should continue to be so.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

So your in front trading sammy?

lol

see what I mean?


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Prawn.....

Please define "fair"

lol


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> .
> 
> Eg - Online Broker A knows the market cap for company B has been downgraded from say, 110m to 56m, all you have to do to manipulate it from this point is just experience some "computer lagg" in updating those online stats for your customers....then you have your seemingly great "fundamentals" and their BULL..IT!!!!!    lol
> 
> ...




no , no thanks needed bud , your statement is absolute crud actually , a BROKER does not downgrade OR upgrade the market cap darl . THE BUYERS OR SELLERS DO . the market cap of a co changes from every different last sale price ..geez m8 buy a book!


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Prawn.....
> 
> Please define "fair"
> 
> lol




Fair is those people losing money who think they will make instant cash from the markets without having to do even the simplest research or calculations (IE - market cap). 

Its obvious you have not done any reading whatsoever, so and further points will be over your head.


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

market cap is also changed when a co does new issues , buybacks , options conversions etc etc ... 

market cap = number of shares X current price , i can say that 50 times if ya wish but if ya dont believe me , ring afriend


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## rub92me (6 November 2008)

Ah, how refreshing, a new troll thread :


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

rub92me said:


> Ah, how refreshing, a new troll thread :




lol blessem


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Maybe Im just scanning for permabulls in here......


HAHAHA

Oh, you kids......
I tell ya, it's a laugh sometimes.

THATS A BULLTRAP KIDDIES, and you wont find that in a "book" m8....


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Maybe Im just scanning for permabulls in here......
> 
> 
> HAHAHA
> ...




WTF??? man im gunna go boil an egg instead


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> So your in front trading sammy?
> 
> lol
> 
> see what I mean?




Depends what you define as down. I started investing around 2002, my net position till now is up. I exited some positions this time last year, and have re-entered again recently, and am down on those trades, but once you take into account dividends I'm doing fine. 

But lets look at the opportunity cost had I not invested;
My money would be sitting in a bank getting chewed up by inflation.
Or
I would have bought property, yielded low returns, sacrificed the majority of my income towards interest and now be at least 20% down.


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> WTF??? man im gunna go boil an egg instead




Can I join you!!


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

I like eggs....

sunny side up for me...

oh, and white with 2 champ....


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> I like eggs....
> 
> sunny side up for me...
> 
> oh, and white with 2 champ....




You can get your own sugar.


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## MS+Tradesim (6 November 2008)

Stockasarock, 

If you're not making money in the current market just admit to yourself that you don't know what is going on and commit to learn. You, and only you, are responsible for your trading results.


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## aleckara (6 November 2008)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Stockasarock,
> 
> If you're not making money in the current market just admit to yourself that you don't know what is going on and commit to learn. You, and only you, are responsible for your trading results.




I think this is where the true problem really is. Where does a beginner go to learn?

There are so many scams when it comes to investment courses, books that are just bad, and so many methods of trading (that take a certain person to exercise). To the average beginner trying to learn it is very difficult. Most people want to invest in a company and see it grow - they don't want to have to worry about stop losses, overbought/oversold, technical analysis, or whatever strikes your fancy. Hence why most new investors are FA people - they look at the numbers, see a growth rate and take it. They understand a loss of 20% if the companies earnings are down 20%, not 80% like the current market.

To the average person it is a casino. The good traders are like card counters in the casino - know how to milk the system.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

aleckara said:


> To the average person it is a casino. The good traders are like card counters in the casino - know how to milk the system.




"the good traders"

That my friend, in reference to your quote above is an oxymoron....
Think about it.

Of course no one in the top 5% of wealth will agree.....duh!!!
They usually say things like "oh you must have got burned because your lacking in skill" - thats a faux pa also....

Answer this, where will these "good traders" be when mum and dads say "no more" and bail in numbers?
Jumping out of windows again i expect......
Sound "good" to you?

lol
"good traders"....pardon the pun, but thats a "good one"


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Stockasarock,
> 
> If you're not making money in the current market just admit to yourself that you don't know what is going on and commit to learn. You, and only you, are responsible for your trading results.






lol....
prophetic.

Do you make the coffee's around here, I still need one you know.......


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> "
> Answer this, where will these "good traders" be when mum and dads say "no more" and bail in numbers?
> Jumping out of windows again i expect......
> Sound "good" to you?
> ...





oh dear ..um it isnt the mums and dads that move these markets .... sorry to burrst your bubble ......... like i said b4 read a book darl cos u obviously know squat on market realitys

no offense intended


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## MS+Tradesim (6 November 2008)

Good traders will be where they always are....banking profits while other people complain about the markets being rigged. People jumping out of windows may be implementing the ultimate stop loss...if only they'd learned sooner. 

What's that saying? People who think some task is impossible should not bother those who are doing it.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

I truly believe you're adgenda driven..... (nunthewiser)

lol

so obvious


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## Bushman (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Bushman, point 1 and 2 are totally not thought out, I'd tell you why, but I think it would honestly be over your head, no offence intended....




Please - give me a try. I await your pearls of wisdom with bated breath.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Already explained it bushman, if you'd read the whole thread......

This is what i was getting at by the concept being lost on you....

see?


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> I truly believe you're adgenda driven..... (nunthewiser)
> 
> lol
> 
> so obvious




yes its true .i AM agenda driven ! 

my agenda IS to provide facts instead of this fantasy made up dribble you ignorantly keep spewing here on a subject you obviously know nothing about


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## awg (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Everyone worked out that the asx is a scam to aid the top 5% whilst you seem to make bad call after bad call?
> 
> I went cash, what a great call it turned out to be too.
> No doubt there will be plenty of traders who think Im just whinging, but why wouldnt they?, their jobs depend on a steady flow of new cash losers fed to them from banks and various trading sites.
> ...




Maybe you could open a CFD account and go short on the ASX Index


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Observe the "hit nerve"

As I said, obvious....you should tone it down a tad petal....


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## nunthewiser (6 November 2008)

StockAsArOck said:


> Observe the "hit nerve"
> 
> As I said, obvious....you should tone it down a tad petal....




ROFLMAO!!!! hahahahahahh , oh dear i get it now 

u been sent here to destroy us by shane oliver and all the other "bull market geniuses " to flood the airwaves with disinformation to cover up the fact that ya know diddly about what u speak 


hahahah cheers for the giggle my moonbeam friend


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## tomsum (6 November 2008)

I'm still learning about the stockmarket myself, and will certainly be the first to tell you that I don't know much about it and its intricacies. However I feel the need to point out that your article lacks any sort of factual evidence to back up the broad statements you're making...for a forum that seems to pride itself on providing cohesive *facts * to support proposed theories, you don't seem to be doing very well! I don't think I will take anything you have said onboard with me on my constant quest for knowledge. "lol"


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## sammy84 (6 November 2008)

This is a previous post by StockAsArOck in another topics as an e.g;
Have watched this co for quite a while, first post here though.
Very bullish on this stock, with a *market cap of 21mil* and a current price of around 0.059, as well as positive RSI and IMO, a bottomed CMF graph now showing, this has to be as good as any speccie can be in this volatile current market.
Couple that also with the recent positive test results re-lead extraction, and the global ramping of enviromental "needs" ongoing, and you have a solid 0-6mth punt IMO.
Always do your own research on stocks, and know your own limits.

Cheers
StockAsArOck.....​
Either he has had a change of heart very quickly with his views on the stock market or he is enjoying working people up here. I think it is the second option.


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

Look at ya's!!!

He's a spy, he's a conspiritor....

OMG

Want cohesive facts?  DYOR


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## jackson8 (6 November 2008)

sammy84 said:


> This is a previous post by StockAsArOck in another topics as an e.g;
> Have watched this co for quite a while, first post here though.
> Very bullish on this stock, with a *market cap of 21mil* and a current price of around 0.059, as well as positive RSI and IMO, a bottomed CMF graph now showing, this has to be as good as any speccie can be in this volatile current market.
> Couple that also with the recent positive test results re-lead extraction, and the global ramping of enviromental "needs" ongoing, and you have a solid 0-6mth punt IMO.
> ...





maybe he has lost all his money and is looking for someone to blame.

hells bells we all lose out sometimes but hopefully learn from our mistakes and put our knowledge to the test to try again another day ...you know what they say ....if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen ....or something like that


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## StockAsArOck (6 November 2008)

"Either he has had a change of heart very quickly with his views on the stock market or he is enjoying working people up here. I think it is the second option"

Left out the company I see......did I get it right did I?  Didnt wanna show that part?

Yeah.....real balanced view there, unfortunately however I feel your scales tip heavy to one side.......unsure of which.


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## prawn_86 (6 November 2008)

This thread is going nowhere and is blatant flaming.

Closed


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