# SMSF Accountant/Treatment of Futures in Tax



## mjim (5 June 2017)

Hello
2 separate topics but some how related
1) I m searching for an budget ( under $1000 including audit) SMSF accountant for a small SMSF,  I know there are few around but many of them restrict what broker you use! I need somebody who will allow Interactive Brokers,  Also the accountant need to be familiar with how to treat Leveraged products trading like Futures and CFD or FX
2) This question is perhaps relevant to outside SMSF trading
Is it true that for tax purposes to be considered as a "trader" and not investor one needs to have a certain turnover.
If this is true then , in case for leveraged instruments do we calculate the "Turnover" by adding the "Notional" value of contracts or adding the Margin that you put in and get back?
Say a contract notionally value at $100,000 and margin is 10,000
Buy 100,000 and sell 101,000  / Turnover 201000
OR
Buy Margin 10000, Sell margin money back 10100 = Turnover of 11,000?
For tax purposes

3) Does the above "Turnover"  issue is relevant to trading in SMSF? ot for SMSF it is only the P/L that needs to be supplied for accounting?


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## Civ81 (5 June 2017)

Hey,
I am looking for a SMSF accountant also. Must be know CFD's trading for my personal tax return and also trusts. 
I live in Brisbane. 
Can anyone pls help us with a referral?
Thank you!


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## tech/a (5 June 2017)

Not an accountant---just a Duck.

But as far as I know.
(1) To hold share investment in an SMSF you must have LESS than 50 trades a year.
(2) You cannot trade leveraged instruments with your SMSF.


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## mjim (5 June 2017)

tech/a said:


> Not an accountant---just a Duck.
> 
> But as far as I know.
> (1) To hold share investment in an SMSF you must have LESS than 50 trades a year.
> (2) You cannot trade leveraged instruments with your SMSF.



Are you sure about point no 2?


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## elbee (5 June 2017)

tech/a said:


> Not an accountant---just a Duck.
> 
> But as far as I know.
> (1) To hold share investment in an SMSF you must have LESS than 50 trades a year.
> (2) You cannot trade leveraged instruments with your SMSF.





Absolute nonsense
(Not a Duck -- just an accountant)


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## rb250660 (5 June 2017)

Regarding point 2. If you read the ATO website it's a bit grey. I don't think dollar turnover is considered, but rather your trade frequency. I think the intention of the ATO is to stop rampant speculation and encourage investing being in the best interests of the superannuation fund members. I do about 50 or 60 trades a year with an average hold of 60 days and its never been a problem. Outside of my super I do over 400 trades a year with an average hold of 2 days and think this could be flagged (rightly) as speculation.

Speak to someone who knows what they're really on about is my advice.


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## elbee (6 June 2017)

some points to note re SMSFs:

1) Your SMSF auditor must be independent of the person preparing the SMSF accounts.

2) The accounting costs for an SMSF depend on the quality of the information the trustee provides to the accountant.

3) The audit fees depend on the quality of the information the accountant provides to the auditor.

4) For super fund taxation purposes there is no relevance to the distinction between being a trader or investor. All gains on disposal of assets are assessable (with a CGT discount if the asset has been held for 12 months) and losses are deductible but only against gains.

5) There is no restriction on the number of transactions that can take place in a fund, or actively engaging in share trading if the fund investment strategy allows it.

6) A fund can trade derivatives or leveraged securities if the investment stategy allows it, a risk disclosure statement has been prepared and given to members, and if the transaction does not create a charge over the assets of the fund.


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## mjim (19 June 2017)

ok so within SMSF turnover does not matter it is just P/L and if it is profit taxed at the Super rate of 15%
Now what about Normal non SMSF trading does "Turnover" matter and if it does then the same question in case of Futures
Buy 100,000 and sell 101,000 / Turnover 201000
OR
Buy Margin 10000, Sell margin money back 10100 = Turnover of 11,000?
For tax purposes


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## rb250660 (19 June 2017)

I remember my account mentioning something about both turnover and trade frequency years ago when classifying what I do as either active share trading or investing when considering claims for my home office, data feed cost, etc. I remember it was a bit grey. Again, chat to a professional.


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## mjim (19 June 2017)

"classifying what I do as either active share trading or investing when considering claims" that is exactly in my mind too  I think the threshold was 20K if so then one can see how quickly one can say I had a turnover of 20K by using notional rather than margin!


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