# Save our technology incorporated



## nioka (7 July 2008)

Today I attended a meeting of a small local company with great technology aimed at reducing truck fuel usage by 25%. The technology is proven and ready for production. The company looks like getting wound up because of lack of funds to produce the product. An outcome of today's meeting was the establishment of a not for profit organisation aimed at raising funds to assist Australian inventions in circumstances like these. The first company to be assisted if funds can be raised will be Permo-drive.

One of the main causes of the companies problems is the new government withdrawing $5m in funding the company had hoped to receive under the "commercial ready grant scheme". The other is the failure of an American company that was to be a partner in developing and marketing the product. 

The technology is a regenerative drive system that stores energy obtained in slowing the vehicle and releasing it when needed for accelleration. The equipment has been trialled successfully by the US army with the trial vehicle clocking up 35,000 miles. The tests have shown a 25% reduction in fuel comsumption and polution emissions.

The commonwealth has seen fit to grant the foriegn multinational company Toyota a $35m subsidy in support of it's fuel saving hybrid vehicle but has not responded yet to many appeals for help for this Aussie company.

This is a proven technology with massive savings possible for fuel and will help in a large way towards polution reduction.

The details of the permodrive invention can be found on the company web site. www.permo-drive.com.

 There are two ways you can help. The first is to contact your local member of parliament and ask  WHY IS IT SO?. The second is to become a member of the new organisation which is being set up to help, not only Permo-drive but also other struggligg Aussie companies.  

      Membership Fees  .  An individual   $50

                                  A business      $500

                                  Public Copmany$5,000

                                  Corporation      $50,000

     Contact address     Save Our Technology Inc
                                12 Carrington St
                                 BALLINA  N.S.W.  2478

Check it out and give a little.Everyone who doesn't like to see Aussie inventions sold cheaply and developed overseas should be concerned enough to help.


----------



## reece55 (7 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*

Nioka
Trust me, your group is not the only one affected - it's a disgrace the Rudd Government removed the Comm Ready Grant Scheme, so much for Aus being a innovative country!!!!!!!!!!!! All the best in the endeavor to raise the much needed funds....

Cheers
Reece


----------



## nioka (7 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



reece55 said:


> Nioka
> Trust me, your group is not the only one affected - it's a disgrace the Rudd Government removed the Comm Ready Grant Scheme, so much for Aus being a innovative state!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the best in the endeavor to raise the much needed funds....
> 
> Cheers
> Reece



 This group recognises that it is not the only one. That is the reason that the group decided not to just try and raise funds for Permo-drive but rather create a fund that would be ongoing and help, Australia wide, wherever it can.


----------



## kenny (7 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*

Noika,

What happened at the meeting? Did Permodrive decide to proceed with the windup?

What couldn't they try another avenue for the last $7.5 million?

Regards,

Kenny


----------



## nioka (7 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



kenny said:


> Noika,
> 
> What happened at the meeting? Did Permodrive decide to proceed with the windup?
> 
> ...




  The meeting was successful in forcing the directors to defer action for three weeks.This give us, the interested shareholders a breathing space to find an alternative. the alternative is to find funds to enable the company to continue for a few months and try and get the balance of the necessary funding. I might add that the directors seem to have a vested interest in having the company wound up. I say seem because that is the impression that most shareholders I spoke to seem to have gained. Most shareholders, including myself, realise that our shares are worthless and we probably will gain little from the business continuing. Our interest is now in saving a local industry, saving the technology as an australian asset and helping stop the same thing being repeated over and over again. We are also trying to get the Federal Government to see sense in this regard. 
 Previously the directors have tried, without success to have the company listed. They include some representing a financier that has a lein on the technology as security for a loan and if the company is wound up now they will get most of the available cash generated with the sale of the assets
 In my opinion, past directors lived on a champagne diet in a company with less than a beer income. Money spent on directors fees and overseas travel far exceeds the amount of money the company needs for successful production and marketing now. The company has approximately 1600 shareholders, mostly mum and dad retirees, who invested a large proportion of their retirement funds in the project and who are not in a position to invest further. (I only have a token investment,$5000, which I made years ago when the company was in it's infantancy.) My problem is that I did encourage others to invest, including members of my own family. I am also a believer that Australia has lost too much of it's technology overseas for very little gain and that should stop.


----------



## nioka (28 July 2008)

I'm happy to report that, at another meeting to wind up Permo-drive today the Save our technology organiser was able to come up with sufficient funds to stave off action for another 2 weeks. Every little helps. Another shareholder came up with a four stage plan to help with the survival of the company. One of those stages relies on the public putting pressure on the government to make funds available through the Green car innovation fund, The Clean business Aust fund and/or the Commercialising Emerging Technologies Fund. The Government isn't acting fast enough to be in time so ANY REPRESENTATIONS WILL HELP. 

Another stage was to try and find prepaid sales for drive units. The company doesn't have the funds to place an order for component parts and if some prepaid orders for parts could be obtained then production could start. The suggestion is that any money obtained in this way would have to go to a trust fund to be used only for that purpose and if sufficient orders were not obtained then the payments would be returned.

Anyone with a truck out there that will spend a few grand to save 20 to 30% on diesel fuel? The technology has been proven by the US army with a truck travelling over 34,000 kms.


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



reece55 said:


> Nioka
> Trust me, your group is not the only one affected - it's a disgrace the Rudd Government removed the Comm Ready Grant Scheme, so much for Aus being a innovative country!!!!!!!!!!!! All the best in the endeavor to raise the much needed funds....
> 
> Cheers
> Reece




I'm suprised trucking co's have not been jumping on board.

Wasn’t Green and Innovative part of the Lab's election slogan? The solar means test is killing off the solar industry as well. I thought they may have invested a bit more into these areas. A lot of the big money for funding seems to be going into the big multinationals pockets. 

Seems a bit of a sham when these schemes had funding prior and now it’s been taken away. Still its early days. Perhaps the plan is to tax our way to greenness, just like the way they are trying to tax our way out of binge drinking.


----------



## springhill (29 July 2008)

nioka said:


> Today I attended a meeting of a small local company with great technology aimed at reducing truck fuel usage by 25%. The technology is proven and ready for production.




I dont doubt for one second what u have said here is true, but upon reading the first 2 sentences 1 word came to mind..... FIREPOWER!


----------



## nioka (29 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



moXJO said:


> I'm suprised trucking co's have not been jumping on board.
> 
> Wasn’t Green and Innovative part of the Lab's election slogan? The solar means test is killing off the solar industry as well. I thought they may have invested a bit more into these areas. A lot of the big money for funding seems to be going into the big multinationals pockets.
> 
> Seems a bit of a sham when these schemes had funding prior and now it’s been taken away. Still its early days. Perhaps the plan is to tax our way to greenness, just like the way they are trying to tax our way out of binge drinking.




The only response I can get from the truckers is " when it is in production we'll give it a go". Seems like wanting chickens without having to go through the egg cycle to me.

 The government (both past and present) ,to use a Keating phrase, are all feathers and no meat.


----------



## nioka (29 July 2008)

springhill said:


> I dont doubt for one second what u have said here is true, but upon reading the first 2 sentences 1 word came to mind..... FIREPOWER!




The difference is that Permo-drive have a demonstration vehicle operating and another has been doing trials with the US army and has 34,000 miles of proven performance.


----------



## kenny (29 July 2008)

Thanks Nioka for keeping us up to date with the Permo-drive story.

For those wanting a media report of the news, here are a couple of recent articles.

http://www.northernstar.com.au/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3779232

This one's from 29/08/2008;

http://www.northernstar.com.au/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3779935


One thing I don't understand, Nioka is what return are investors in the Save Our Technology company expecting to receive?

What is SOT receiving from Permo-Drive for the funds?

Also, what has Permo-Drive said they intend to use the newly raised funds for? Has SOT negotiated any say in the earmarking of the funds?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Kenny


----------



## nioka (29 July 2008)

kenny said:


> One thing I don't understand, Nioka is what return are investors in the Save Our Technology company expecting to receive?
> 
> What is SOT receiving from Permo-Drive for the funds?
> 
> ...




The only return for contributors to the SOL fund is the satisfaction of knowing that you help save Australian technology. The fund is a "not for profit" organisation. Yesterdays payment was given with no strings attached. SOL does intend to make payments as a loan in most cases, to be repaid from future profits and the funds used again in the future to assist other industries in the same boat.

Permo-drive is a public company with approximately1900 shareholders. Mostly mum and dad retirees. The company was not successful in obtaining listing on the ASX at this stage because of it's financial problems but if it survives I guess it will.


----------



## juw177 (29 July 2008)

As Howard has done with the Abrams tanks, fighter planes, and submarine systems, the government will just get a tender from a US company and discriminate against domestic businesses.


----------



## nioka (29 July 2008)

The SOT plan for permodrive is not the only drive for assistance that the company has. Another proposition put to the board was a four point plan submitted by another enthuastic shareholder. Copy attached


----------



## --B-- (29 July 2008)

nioka, could permo-drive apply for funding under this scheme?



> Science and Research Minister Kim Carr has announced that applications have opened for the Climate Ready program.
> Dollar-for-dollar grants of up to $5 million are available for projects such as water recycling, waste recovery, renewable energy technology and biotechnology



http://news.smh.com.au/business/green-grants-scheme-open-for-business-20080729-3mmr.html

or is it too late?


----------



## nioka (29 July 2008)

--B-- said:


> nioka, could permo-drive apply for funding under this scheme?
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/business/green-grants-scheme-open-for-business-20080729-3mmr.html
> 
> or is it too late?



That question was asked at the meeting. The answer from the board was that an effort to lodge an application was told that application forms would be available this week. Past efforts couldn't get any reply from the department. 

As I said the government is all feathers and no meat.


----------



## Happy (30 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



moXJO said:


> I'm suprised trucking co's have not been jumping on board.





I might sound heartless, but instead of making strike driving 60k an hour or less and burning fuel which they cannot afford to buy and making nuisance of themselves, money could be donated as partial prepayment to make 25% saving devices.

How much does it cost to produce one unit?

May I suggest that for example interested users could collect enough money to make a few to raffle them amongst themselves.

Those who win, could donate half or quarter of their savings toward the raffle, so others can in turn get their units.


----------



## nioka (30 July 2008)

*Re: Save our technology incorporated.*



Happy said:


> How much does it cost to produce one unit?



Approximately $25,000.

I've written to the state government asking that they order, prepaid, 10 units. That is not asking for a handout but offering value for money. A test lot on the cities busses would help the city and save the company. Result; no answer.

I've written to the local council asking similar. Result; No answer so far.

I don't work there. I'm one of a small band of concerned locals trying to help.


----------



## moXJO (30 July 2008)

Sounds like a freebie needs to be handed out to the larger corporations so they can test it for themselves.


----------



## nioka (30 July 2008)

moXJO said:


> Sounds like a freebie needs to be handed out to the larger corporations so they can test it for themselves.




One unit was given to the US army who trialled it for 34,000miles suggessfully. Another went there but a driver wrecked the truck in the first few weeks. The company has a demonstration vehicle running around. To make units one by one is very expensive and prohibitive. The company used up $25m getting this far. To get into commercial production they have to order component parts in quantity. They were expecting $5m from the Government as a "commercial ready" grant but the Government has cancelled that program and left the company on a limb. The company has run out of money and the directors are endeavouring to wind up the company. If that happens the technology will be sold overseas. It is probably no coincidence that there were two chinese in business suits sitting at the back during the meeting to discuss the winding up of the company.

The $25,000 is a price when production is under way. Not for building one unit at a time. They need to build 100 plus at the start.


----------



## prawn_86 (30 July 2008)

As sad as it is, I am resigned to the fact that Aus's politicians simply do not care about this country.

China is a different story. They may treat their people like crap, and i wouldnt want to live there, but i assure you they have a 100 - 200 year plan in place and are working towards it. Western governments have become too lazy and complacent, much like previous historical empires...

*end rant*


----------



## MillieBear (31 July 2008)

nioka said:


> The SOT plan for permodrive is not the only drive for assistance that the company has. Another proposition put to the board was a four point plan submitted by another enthuastic shareholder. Copy attached




I read the four point plan, but if I am reading this right one idea is to get users to pay 50% up front for a system pretty much sight unseen.  Why would anyone do that, particularly if there are competitor systems available (I presume there are competitors?) and where would the company get the other half of the money needed?


----------



## MillieBear (31 July 2008)

I have been googling a little and came up with several competitors to this system.  They include Eaton (Both electric and hydraulic systems), Parker Rexroth, Artemis, Azure (Electric), Allison (Electric), Smith (Electric), BAE (electric) Shep (Hydraulic), ISE (electric), Prodrive, Innas and so on.


Is this thing really that much better than the competiors?  Can it really succeed?


----------



## zolow (31 July 2008)

Hi Noika,

Have you looked at other sources of govt funding? I know the AutoCRC is looking for ways to spend it's money. It would depend on the development stage of the product, but it might be worth speaking to them about funding. of course to get funding you would probably have to partner with a research institution, they generally provide dollar for dollar funding. PM me if you want a contact for them.

Also, since this company provides a solution to trucks... have you contacted any larger logistics companies for partnership, a 25% reduction in fuel costs could go along way there, 3PL companies like Toll, TNT etc might be willing to partner with it. Even though some of the trucks they use are owner-drivers, the big 3PLs still have a decent fleet.  I know that they are always looking for improvements in fuel usage. (that's why they put those cones on the front of the trailors).

Just looking at the website, for the lowest spec truck has An ROI of about 5 years (based on a unit price of $25k). What's the expected life span of the unit, do you know? The tech looks like a nifty idea... pity there aren't any truck producers in Australia anymore. 

you also might have better luck after the big automotive review the fed govt. have just finished comes out... should be due very soon (within 2 months IMO). 

PS: Also Noika have they approached any VC's? Do they want to go down this road?


----------



## nioka (31 July 2008)

There are government programs in the pipeline but the delays in them coming to fruition will not get them implemented in time. The production ready grant program that has been cancelled was the one the company had planned to use. If you enquire about the new programs you find that you can't even apply for them yet. These avenues are still being examined by the company. The 4 point program is taking them into account.

A company need not place an order sight unseen. The reports re the US army trials are available and the company has a demonstration truck operating.

I doubt that there is any avenue that the company hasn't tried. We, the little people are trying everything possible to save (a) the company and/or (b) the technology. If we can muster enough help a little at a time we may just succeed.
At this stage about $500,000 on top of the amount some of us are prepared to contribute will probably do the job.

A lot of the trucking companies say yes they will try it BUT when it is in production.


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2008)

Has the company tried a VC. I'd say it would have to bend over and cop it though if it did explore that avenue


----------



## MillieBear (31 July 2008)

Nioka,

Interesting.  The company reckons $7.5 million, and presumably from what has been said, are working on a grant on top of that.

You seem to be saying more like $500,000 will do the job.  Pardon please my suspicious mind, but what is it you know that they don't so you need so very much less than they that have been working on this for years say is needed?  

I can see from what you say you are passionate about this, and about our neglected Australian maunfacturing industry (as I am), but do I detect the the heart speaking rather than the head?

I have looked at this several times to see if I should invest, but something seems not quite right.  It seems to work and I don't see that is in question. The time seems right, what with high fuel and all that.  But why is the finance community not taking this up?  Why are there not a swag of orders around the world for hybrids of any kind??   Either my google is broken or I am not seeing the evidence.  Hence the above questions.

What are we missing here?  Could it be the finance geeks have it right, and the automotive hybrid industry is just too hard, too uncertain, unproven, no winner yet emerging from the competitive pack and as yet not accepted by truckers and so on??  Do hybrids pay?  Do other things promise equal or better returns??

I decect in the flow a strain of feeling that the government should intervene in cases like Permo Drive.  But I have a queasy feeling about that approach.  Why should taxpayers money be used to save this (or any) company and make its shareholders rich??  Matching funding, as I understand is how the various government grants work, but in this case even the attraction of a grant seems not to have teased forth matching private investment.  The listed board seems experienced in the finance community, so how come and why not?

I would love to be wrong, but this is beginning to look like the Sarich engine (and the two stroke it morphed into) to me - a great innovation the market did not buy.  

Comments anyone??


----------



## nioka (31 July 2008)

moXJO said:


> Has the company tried a VC. I'd say it would have to bend over and cop it though if it did explore that avenue



 How would that work. Excuse my ignorance.


----------



## nioka (31 July 2008)

MillieBear said:


> Nioka,
> 
> Interesting.  The company reckons $7.5 million, and presumably from what has been said, are working on a grant on top of that.
> 
> ...




 The $7.5m that they want included the $5m that they had expected to get (and would have received) under the old scheme with the Howard govt. It involves ordering a  fairly large inventory of component parts and building numbers of units before sales. It also allows for the repayment of convertable notes that the lender will not convert.(These notes can probably be bought out at discounted prices.)

 The plan allows for a trickle of funds, which is coming, from the SOT.  If that can keep the company solvent day to day then it allows for time to implement other stages.

 There are some people still prepared to invest. I am one. (I can guarantee that my heart doesn't rule my head. I am too old in the tooth for that). That is where the SPP comes in.

 The governments have seen fit to help Toyota to the tune of $70m towards it's hybrid car. Toyota probably would have done the same without the grant. They certainly would not have gone into liquidation. I think this one deserves government help if any company does. If anyone else feels this way please e-mail your local member and the PM with that wish. Every bit of pressure will help.

 One of the problems is that some on the board want the company wound up. The reasons I would not be prepared to put in print. The small shareholders, there are 1900 approx, are out numbered at this stage. An SPP will correct the balance and get the 1900 over the 50% mark.

I have always liked a challenge and this is one. It keeps me from going senile in my old age.


----------



## Hanno (1 August 2008)

Save Our Technology Incorporated now has their own website. Go online to get the full story and latest updates. You can also sign up to the association from there. See: www.saveourtechnology.com.au


----------



## zolow (1 August 2008)

nioka said:


> How would that work. Excuse my ignorance.




I think usually you send out your business plan along with your proposal (i.e. what you want from them). The more detailed the business plan the better, you need to include market size, expected exposure, projected sales, company org structure etc all that sort of stuff. 

If they are interested, and after due diligence, then they will set the terms they are prepared to offer you, usually pretty steep as I understand it.

I think venture capitalists also tend to specialise in a specific area so you might need target your VC's to those looking at manufacturing or automotive areas.

I'm sure there's info on google for you to look at.


----------



## nioka (1 August 2008)

zolow said:


> I think usually you send out your business plan along with your proposal (i.e. what you want from them). The more detailed the business plan the better, you need to include market size, expected exposure, projected sales, company org structure etc all that sort of stuff.
> 
> If they are interested, and after due diligence, then they will set the terms they are prepared to offer you, usually pretty steep as I understand it.
> 
> ...



I can see where you are. Never heard it referred to as a VC before. (I think of VC as Victoria cross and this company deserves one of them). 
The company has done that in the past. That is how the US army got involved. The situation now is that we don't have the time to do things in the traditional way. We have to find some true believers that will make quick decisions. If SOT can get enough support to buy the time then I'm sure the rest will fall into place. The technology is there. Australia needs to save it for Australia.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2008)

nioka said:


> I can see where you are. Never heard it referred to as a VC before. (I think of VC as Victoria cross and this company deserves one of them).
> The company has done that in the past. That is how the US army got involved. The situation now is that we don't have the time to do things in the traditional way. We have to find some true believers that will make quick decisions. If SOT can get enough support to buy the time then I'm sure the rest will fall into place. The technology is there. Australia needs to save it for Australia.




VC = venture capitalist, they have tough terms though


----------



## nioka (2 August 2008)

moXJO said:


> VC = venture capitalist, they have tough terms though




They are the reason for the current problem. Sort of like the subprime crisis problem.


----------



## nioka (7 August 2008)

I can report that the efforts of SOT and other interested parties have , for the moment, saved Permo-drive and I thank anyone who contributed. However it may only be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. The new deal has not extinguished the massive debt to an investment bank. It has allowed around $3m in debt to be transferred to a small investor for the grand sum of around $100 as part of a deal with the buy out of 14% of the shares in the company.The company can not repay the debt and it can be called in at any time.The new buyer has been allowed to appoint the complete new board while only owning 14% of the companies shares. If the new buyer is a white night then it is good but if he is an opportunist then it is all over for the company. Time will tell. Another investor had offered a similar deal which would have extinguished the debt. He lost out by being too genuine in the dealing while trying to look after the 1900 small shareholders and having them benefit from the deal. I fear a black knight. I hope I am proved wrong.


----------



## zolow (8 August 2008)

Good luck Nioka, I have a feeling you're going to need it.


----------



## MillieBear (11 August 2008)

nioka said:


> Today I attended a meeting of a small local company with great technology aimed at reducing truck fuel usage by 25%. The technology is proven and ready for production. The company looks like getting wound up because of lack of funds to produce the product. An outcome of today's meeting was the establishment of a not for profit organisation aimed at raising funds to assist Australian inventions in circumstances like these. The first company to be assisted if funds can be raised will be Permo-drive.
> 
> One of the main causes of the companies problems is the new government withdrawing $5m in funding the company had hoped to receive under the "commercial ready grant scheme". The other is the failure of an American company that was to be a partner in developing and marketing the product.
> 
> ...





So now the company has been "Saved" by a company controlled by Trevor Dunn and Paul McMahon.  Google Paul - it makes interesting reading.

So having aquired control, little birds tell me:

The MD quit.
The Financial controller quit
The chief engineer quit.
Paul McMahoin is a consultant
TD's wife is somehow active in the company management
The staff have been given two weelks's leav without pay (Will they ever return????)
The company assets are to be moved (without staff, who knbow what is what, involvement) to who knows where
staff keys have been taken back and their building access removed
New accounts have been set up with interesting access

In other words, the foxes are in the henhouse, and the laudable objectives of SOT seem likley to dissapear in a cloud of smoke and mirrors.

Good result?  PD saved - I think not. Future investors be very, very careful indeed..


----------



## nioka (11 August 2008)

MillieBear said:


> So now the company has been "Saved" by a company controlled by Trevor Dunn and Paul McMahon.  Google Paul - it makes interesting reading.
> 
> So having aquired control, little birds tell me:
> 
> ...




 I am worried that it was a case of out of the fryingpan into the fire as I said in my last post. Are you stirring or have you more information. I note all your posts on ASF are in this thread so you obviously have an interest.


----------



## MillieBear (13 August 2008)

Nokia,

Stirring - No.  What is the point of that?  My comments are in the debating sense of seeing all sides of the subject aired openly so that investors can make balanced and informed decisions.  In the end, what is is what is, but future investment decisions should be made on an informed and unemotional basis.

Interest - yes.  The concept is a worthy one and the interests of all stakeholders, including my shareholding interest, are paramount in my view.  

My confirming sources have gone to ground.  Interesting in itself. The information I have commented on,  is (or surely should be) publicly available.  This is after all a public company

I doubt I can contribute further to the subject other than perhaps to comment in the future on developments on the basis of available Permo-Drive specific  information, technical understanding of the generic hybrid subject (I do have a well based understanding in this regard)  and common sense.

I wish PD all the best in principle, but they have a hard road to hoe in the market they are in.  That is obvious.  As to the new controllers of PD, we should await with keen interest their public statments of their intent for the future of this company.   When they come forth with their plan further comment will be appropriate.

Good luck to all, but monitor very carefully is the go.


----------



## nioka (13 August 2008)

meeting notice for Save our technology. A good place to find out facts(hopefully).

Following details from the notice:

        When   2pm Saturday 30th August

        Where  Presbyterian Church Hall,Cherry St Ballina.

         Agenda
                   * President's Report
                   * Financial Report
                   * Approval of management Committee
                   * Adoption of model rules
                   * Election of officers
                         * President
                         * Secretary
                         * Treasurer
                         * Public officer
                    * President's Remuneration
                    * General business

I will also be inviting Trevor Dunn, the new chairman of Permo-Drive Technologies Limited to address the meeting. Hope to see you there 

Signed by John Hannaford President.

Milliebear I have sent you a private message. Please check.


----------



## Hanno (18 August 2008)

The following Press Release has been sent out by Trevor Dunn - the New Chairman of Permo-Drive Technologies Limited:


PERMO-DRIVE BACK ON TRACK

For the past two years ago it straddled a financial tightrope and its future was unclear but Northern Rivers company Permo-Drive has found new owners, new management and now has a new home at the old Lismore Airport complex.

The inventor of a fuel-saving technology for heavy commercial vehicles, the company last month revealed it was running out of money and did not have the funds to get its product to market. 

Permo-Drive has developed what it describes as a regenerative drive system (RDS) for urban commercial vehicles. The technology captures energy normally wasted as heat during braking and re-uses that energy to drive the vehicle, reducing fuel and carbon emissions.

This innovative technology can be installed into any suitable 4 tonne and over vehicle regardless of the type of fuel the vehicle uses – whether diesel, natural gas, LPG or petrol.

At the time of the takeover the new local directors headed by Trevor Dunn of Tregeagle and Tony Hart of Alstonville, were assured by the outgoing management that all  staff entitlements and superannuation payments were paid out in full as all the employees had been retrenched and had been re employed only on a casual basis.

As part of the required financial restructure of the company a local  business consultant, Paul McMahon was engaged due to his extensive experience in international banking.  This move was pivotal due to the nature of the company’s five subsidiaries based in Australia and the USA and the possible need to manufacture some parts overseas.

“We intend to run a lean and focused company dedicated to ensuring the success of the RDS, Trevor Dunn said.   Gone are the days of champagne lunches or expensive hotels and hire cars for company executives and we have also secured a better lease of 10,000 sq m of space which will allow us plenty of room for expansion.”

All previous staff employed by Permo-Drive at the time of takeover have been offered new employment when the company has relocated its operations to Lismore.

Federal Member for Page, Ms Janelle Saffin, said Permo-Drive had her full support. 
“Permo-Drive is a unique, local Australian technology company in the forefront of delivering massive fuel and emission savings to the whole world,” she said.

Local Member for Lismore, Mr Thomas George, said “Permo-Drive is welcome back to Lismore and many local shareholders will be pleased to see if Permo-Drive can finally realise its potential.”

Local Member for Ballina, Mr. Don Page, said “he viewed Permo-Drive as a regional company and that he understood the need to control costs and would continue to assist the management in its noble endeavours.”

The company plans to advertise selected positions for additional staff shortly.

For more information, contact Trevor Dunn, chairman of Permo-Drive Technologies Ltd on mobile 0400 238 411, or Tony Hart, director, on 0414 217664.


----------



## nioka (18 August 2008)

Permodrive will only be saved if the convertable notes are converted to shares. The notes are drawing 24% interest I believe and are a debt hanging over the head of the company that will prevent any reasonable additional finance being obtained and will hinder any stock exchange listing.

If the previous post regarding Paul McMahon has any substance, and it appears to have a ring of truth, then any finance obtained by McMahon will be the subject of scrutiny by the taxation department.His association with the company is not good news as far as I see it. Did I read that he had gone bankrupt to the tune of around $45M. in the not too distant past.And he is a financial adviser???????????? Please tell me this is not THE Paul McMahon.

Permodrive possibly can be resurrected by the new owner of the notes but it appears that the other 1900 shareholders, mostly retirees, will see little for their investment. UNLESS THE NOTES ARE IMMEDIATELY CONVERTED TO SHARES.

Another interesting fact is that a person holding 15% of the company (Bought for approx $15) can appoint the full board with no input from the 1900 shareholders. or at least without input from 1895 of them.

Technology saved ????? I doubt it very much.


----------



## CanOz (19 August 2008)

Maybe you should contact a large N.American trucking company like Day & Ross, Canada's largest trucking company, and from what i hear, keen to be green.

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## nioka (30 August 2008)

The meeting of save our tecnology today was attended by plenty of worried shareholders of Permodrive. A list of questions for the new management were given to the chairman to present to them. Questions included reasons for the lack on continuing employment for essential staff, an explanation on the reasons for an association with Paul McMahon, a date for an annual general meeting etc.

 Mr Dunn submitted an apology and was not available to answer questions.
 Is there a white knight or a black knight?. That is a question that has yet to be answered.

 The financial position of SOT is not flash enough to be of a lot of help at this stage and other technologies can hold out little hope for any financial help until that picture changes.


----------



## nioka (2 October 2008)

For those interested in the progress of permodrive. I have personally made an offer to the chairman to buy out the debt along with his shares in the company and to put sufficient funds into the company account for immediate needs. The offer is being considered at this stage. From calls I receive it is apparent that many of the existing shareholders have little faith that the present management will be able to keep the company moving ahead. I will keep the forum informed.


----------



## amgybb (20 August 2009)

nioka said:


> For those interested in the progress of permodrive. I have personally made an offer to the chairman to buy out the debt along with his shares in the company and to put sufficient funds into the company account for immediate needs. The offer is being considered at this stage. From calls I receive it is apparent that many of the existing shareholders have little faith that the present management will be able to keep the company moving ahead. I will keep the forum informed.




does anybody have an update of proceedings??


----------



## nioka (4 November 2010)

amgybb said:


> does anybody have an update of proceedings??




Permo-drive Technologies Limited is a sad story for its 1900 shareholders. My offer to Trevor Dunn was knocked back and he is still in charge of the companies management, we think. The company has not issued a financial statement for three years, it has not had an annual general meeting for three years and is a secret society. 

I have lodged an official complaint with ASIC three times with no result although the latest was only this week so they may finally throw off the "dead duck" title and take some action. There are a group of us that are standing by that may still put in funds to try and rejuvenate the company if given the chance but as time goes by the chances are getting less and less.

The "save our technology incorporated" group turned out to be another dead duck in my opinion. The $50 membership fee is now an annual $50 fee so I doubt that it now has very many members. I am not one and at its annual meeting I moved a motion to wind up the organisation. The motion was not seconded or supported by the other six people present, I'm not sure what they intend to do but they do not have much in the way of funds left to do much anyway and I can't see them raising any more. i'm not sure if they even became "incorporated".

So nothing good to report. Looks like another good Aussie innovation down the drain.


----------



## nioka (25 June 2011)

Good news for Australian technology being kept in Australia. 

 Not the original permodrive technology, I dont know how they are going now. They have not held an annual general meeting since 2007 nor have they issued a financial statement in that time despite many complaints to ASIC so their 1900 shareholders are left to assume their shares have no value. I note that there is a company offering to buy their shares for .001c each IF you pay them .1c per share to do that. Tax advantages if you need to get rid of their shares.

 However there is now a new company that has developed what looks like a superior product that is about to start marketing a regenerative drive system. This is a new exciting development. I'm proud to be a part of this new company and will be taking an active roll in its marketing. The company will be a public company but at this stage is not listed and shares are not available.

The main point is that this development IS Australian, fully funded, develloped by proud Australians and will STAY Australian owned well into the future as I see it.

Mission accomplished. Technology saved. (No help whatsoever from the Save our Technology Assn)


----------



## trainspotter (25 June 2011)

nioka said:


> Good news for Australian technology being kept in Australia.
> 
> Not the original permodrive technology, I dont know how they are going now. They have not held an annual general meeting since 2007 nor have they issued a financial statement in that time despite many complaints to ASIC so their 1900 shareholders are left to assume their shares have no value. I note that there is a company offering to buy their shares for .001c each IF you pay them .1c per share to do that. Tax advantages if you need to get rid of their shares.
> 
> ...




Sounds very intersting nioka. What is the name of the "new" company?

I see on the Permo-Drive Technologies website they are still soliciting for shareholders?

http://www.permodrive.com/invest/index.htm

Seems strange ASIC have not stepped in on such a questionable deal of 0.001c per share?


----------



## nioka (25 June 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Sounds very intersting nioka. What is the name of the "new" company




The company is still being registered. Previously operating as a Pty Company but now going public. I'll publish more in a week or so when you will be able to look it over on the web.

The Permodrive website is way out of date. Look at;


www.delisted.com.au/Company/12074/PERMO-DRIVE TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED · 

for more information.


----------



## trainspotter (27 June 2011)

nioka said:


> The company is still being registered. Previously operating as a Pty Company but now going public. I'll publish more in a week or so when you will be able to look it over on the web.
> 
> The Permodrive website is way out of date. Look at;
> 
> ...




Ok ..... looked at delisted.com.au for nil result other than to say it is UNLISTED. Surely if the company (Permo-Drive) is defunct they would have closed their website?

Look forward to more information on the "new' registered company as it comes to hand.


----------



## nioka (14 July 2012)

Update.

This week the company "Permodrive Technologies" went into liquidation leaving lots of debts behind , including the Australian Government who had demanded the return of $300,000 of grant money used incorrectly plus a $200,000 fine for that action. I have been told that the assets of the company had been taken by Trevor Dunn and his companies as they held a charge over those assets obtained when he bought the convertable notes. those notes cost around $120,000, and had a "value" of around $4,000,000 and were drawing penalty interest of around 24% (cumulative for the past 3 years.

Shareholders naturally will get nothing from the liquidation. ASIC has allowed this public company with around 1900 shareholders to operate without an annual meeting of shareholders or an audited balance sheet since 2007 despite constant complaints from shareholders.

However , at a special meeting of shareholders called by a rival company those shareholders that have lost money through their investment in Permodrive have been offered free shares in another company on the basis of 1 share in the new company for each 100 Permodrive shares they hold. So the shareholders live on despite the failure of Permodrive and the technology is still being develloped by an all australian company.


----------



## hotdog (8 December 2012)

nioka said:


> Update.
> 
> This week the company "Permodrive Technologies" went into liquidation leaving lots of debts behind , including the Australian Government who had demanded the return of $300,000 of grant money used incorrectly plus a $200,000 fine for that action. I have been told that the assets of the company had been taken by Trevor Dunn and his companies as they held a charge over those assets obtained when he bought the convertable notes. those notes cost around $120,000, and had a "value" of around $4,000,000 and were drawing penalty interest of around 24% (cumulative for the past 3 years.
> 
> ...




------------------------------------------------------------
PERMODRIVE LEGACY

Good news; the Permodrive legacy will continue with 3 companies now developing hydraulic hybrid drive systems in Australia
www.itshybrid.com www.hhtltd.com.au www.thehybridbus.com/hybrid/

I hope you are not buying shares in Hydraulic Hybrid Technologies Ltd, according to itshybrid.com they are not honest people.
Click on link for details;  
It was a great shock to see Permodrive fail, after spending 30 million dollars and 12 years of hard work. That is proof enough that you have to take your inventions overseas to try and commercialise a new product.


----------



## nioka (11 June 2013)

hotdog said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> PERMODRIVE LEGACY
> 
> Good news; the Permodrive legacy will continue with 3 companies now developing hydraulic hybrid drive systems in Australia
> ...





Not looking at ASF much these days I missed this post which has been drawn to my attention for a reply.

The facts are that Cliff Hall approached us after the Permodrive fiasco and wanted us to invest in his hybrid program. We did offer to fund his project but discussions never got beyond the funding discussion. Our terms were that we would only invest if the project was within the control of a Public listed company and we had some say through directorship within that company. Cliff wanted sole control without any guarantee as to how OUR money would be spent.

His bitter story is completely wrong. We have considered legal action against his website but have decided to let the facts prove him wrong. The new company has taken a new approach with what is now old technology. We operate with a low profile as we were fully funded through the development stage. We have a garbage compactor nearing the point of testing commercially. Only when we are satisfied that we will get the project up and running will HHT Ltd. approach shareholders for funds. Those funds will be used to commercialise the concept.

Permodrive shareholders, now ex shareholders since Permodrive went into liquidation, have been offered free shares in HHT Ltd. with one free share for each 100 shares they held in Permodrive. 1000 accepted that offer and they are now owners of 5% of HHT.

I can assure this company is legit. Will prove Hall a fool in the very near future and bring this technology to the world.


----------



## hotdog (20 May 2015)

Neil Hargreaves tells a good story.
even if his story above was true, it dose not give him the right to plagiarize the work of others.
The quote below is from the website www.itshybrid.com 
_The directors and associates of Hydraulic Hybrid Technologies Limited are thieves and liars._

The above statement must be true as no legal action has ever been taken against the website. 

PS.
The HHT website has closed down, 
Hydraulic Hybrid Technologies Ltd is now trading under a new name, 
ADVANCED HYBRID SOLUTIONS.


----------



## nioka (23 May 2015)

d







hotdog said:


> Neil Hargreaves tells a good story.
> even if his story above was true, it dose not give him the right to plagiarize the work of others.
> The quote below is from the website www.itshybrid.com
> _The directors and associates of Hydraulic Hybrid Technologies Limited are thieves and liars._
> ...




Hi Cliff,

They decided to let the results prove the facts. Michael may have used some of the promotional material that he designed when he worked for Halls Hybrid (your company). The new company Advanced Hybrid Solutions Pty Ltd has taken over the assets of HHT Ltd and I can assure you they will be active in taking legal action against anyone slanderising their company. Michael Grossman is not in any way associated with the new company that has shareholders that were all past shareholders in Permodrive. They lost all their investment with Permodrive, still have faith in the technology and the ability of AHS to develop the garbage compactor and have funded the project. The Garbage Compactor is almost ready for trials and arrangements are in hand for a leading waste management firm to conduct these trials. That is further advanced and with newer technology than any of the opposition, including "Its A Hybrid".

If you want to make arrangements to visit the office and discuss this matter I'm sure that the management will be prepared to discuss the situation with you openly and frankly as the are doing to prospective investors. 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain the recent developments.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2015)

Does Permodrive hold any patents on its ideas ?

If they actually worked I'm sure there would be plenty of trucking companies interested in investing.


----------



## nioka (23 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Does Permodrive hold any patents on its ideas ?
> 
> If they actually worked I'm sure there would be plenty of trucking companies interested in investing.




Permodrive went into partnership with Dana corporation in America and gave them most or the patentable material. Dana went bankrupt and was taken over by Bosh.

Most of the technology is available in the common domain. The secrets now are in the Hydraulic motors and the control technology. The earlier models, including the "opposition" models use a hydraulic motor that operates at low revs and is geared up for operation. These gears are mechanically deficient. They also do not operate at super high pressure. Advanced have a European company that has specifically developed/is developing, a high rev, high pressure unit especially for them. That is why it has taken years to get this thing operational.

Yes there are plenty of trucking companies watching the technology. Yes Advanced is closely in touch with them and they, in turn are assisting in this development. Exciting times ahead.


----------



## nioka (12 June 2015)

I can report that there has been a lot of interest in the new company, Advanced Hybrid Solutions Pty Ltd. So much so that the numbers of ex Permodrive shareholders wanting to become shareholders of the new company exceed the number allowed in a Pty Ltd company. A special meeting of shareholders is being called to vote on the company going public and endeavouring to list on the NSX. This shows their faith in not only the technology but also the current management.

The company plans to unveil a new generation specialist hydraulic motor in the very near future. :


----------



## nioka (21 June 2015)

From the Global warming thread, (post by Trainspotter);

"The Obama administration laid out a major step Friday in its fight against climate change with a plan it said would reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from medium and heavy-duty trucks and buses by 1 billion metric tons.

 The matching regulations from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Transportation Department would improve fuel efficiency standards by an average of 24 percent for medium-sized and heavy trucks, buses and big trailers through model year 2027, which would cut the output of Earth-warming carbon dioxide while saving 1.8 billion barrels of oil."

The hydraulic hybrid being developed by Advanced Hybrid Solutions has the potential to save up to 35% of fuel and reduce the wear and tear on vehicles, especially brake linings, in addition to the fuel savings. This would be in addition to any savings made through vehicle efficiency measures made through fuel efficiency. 

Negotiations are underway with a leading refuse collection company who have indicated their willingness to use the technology.

Disclosure; Nioka has a financial interest in AHS.


----------



## nioka (14 July 2015)

News today is that the defamatory and misleading statements regarding Advanced Hybrid Solutions made by Cliff Hall on his website have been withdrawn. At the recent meeting of shareholders they agreed to convert to a public company and aim for a stock exchange listing. More to come in the weeks ahead.


----------



## trainspotter (15 July 2015)

Nioka .. .heard of Western Kingfish Limited? This looks like history repeating itself to me buddy.


----------



## nioka (15 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Nioka .. .heard of Western Kingfish Limited? This looks like history repeating itself to me buddy.




Nothing like that at all. HHT ltd was a company where the manager who was a large shareholder and a board member got out of control and lost the trust of the rest of the board and of those working on the project at a critical time. He also created major problems with ASIC and the tax department. This resulted in expensive legal costs and derailed the project. The company was only able to go into voluntary liquidation because of financing by the remaining directors. That company is now in the process of liquidation.

AHS is a new company that was formed by those directors along with 50 more shareholders. This new company bought all the remaining assets of HHT Ltd including the registered trade name Advanced Hybrid Solutions and used this name as a basis, registering Advanced Hybrid Solutions Pty. Ltd. That company is now in the process of going public and will be seeking a sponsoring broker and a listing on the NSX.  It is definitely not just a rename. Operations have shifted from Sydney to Lismore in NSW. New staff are engaged on the project which had stagnated for months and progress is today focusing on trialling the concept within a month.


----------



## trainspotter (15 July 2015)

Don't want to rain on your parade or take away your shine but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it is a DUCK !

I wish you the best of luck nioka and I hope I am wrong (doubt it though)


----------



## nioka (15 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Don't want to rain on your parade or take away your shine but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it is a DUCK !
> 
> I wish you the best of luck nioka and I hope I am wrong (doubt it though)




Guarantee you ARE wrong. It never was a duck as portrayed by Cliff Hall. The bad publicity was a personal vendetta between Hall and Grossman. Previous Hydraulic Hybrid developments lacked the current technology available. Most of those available still do.

Luck isn't part of the equation.


----------



## nioka (6 February 2016)

Progress report.
 For anyone interested you can look up www.advancedhybridsolutions.com and see the progress being made. The truck featured can now be moved with the hydraulic motor. Development of the electronics is continuing to be refined so that the unit can be safely driven on public roads. Aussie technology that is being retained in Australia for an eventual worldwide market. 

Disclosure; Nioka does have a financial interest. (Nioka also has an emotional interest in this as a believer in the technology being available because of its environmental aspects.)


----------



## nioka (7 July 2016)

Oh how time passes. Today is the 8th anniversary of this thread and the formation of Save Our technology Incorporated. The association was formed at the time to help save a company and the associated development of a hydraulic hybrid drive. The association and the company no longer exist but arising from the ashes was a new company that is getting on with the project. The company, Advanced Hybrid Solutions Ltd, like all new and developing companies is finding there is a battle for funding. The  company has now issued a prospectus, approved by ASIC. For more information on this company check out the web site www.advancedhybridsolutions.com:1zhelp:


 Disclosure; Nioka does have a financial interest. (Nioka also has an emotional interest in this as a believer in the technology being available because of its cost saving and its environmental aspects.)


----------



## nioka (28 January 2017)

Update;
This week the unit was demonstrated to people that have received enquiries from two Asian countries through their business in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong representative made a visit to the company workshop after hearing their story through publicity received from a truck show. A demonstration unit is being prepared for them to trial and the potential is for an order for 80 units. The unit now is much different in concept to the original and different to any other being developed.
 The idea of a hydraulic drive "assist" has been exchanged for a hydraulic "launch". Fuel consumption, wear and tear plus diesel pollution is highest during take off and acceleration and this device now can do most of this heavy lifting. In addition the faster take off is a time saving factor. It is estimated that as much as 1.5 seconds could be saved between pick ups during a domestic garbage collection and almost silent as well.
Not only do the company claim to have saved the technology , they claim to have improved it over time and kept it as another Aussie innovation. Commercialisation requires risk assessments and final costing so that sales are a little way off but possible during 2018.


----------



## nioka (13 October 2020)

Advanced Hybrid Solutions Ltd is still alive and well. The project has taken time to get results but there is now a working prototype in action.


----------

