# Options - Why?



## wayneL (19 January 2005)

Thsi is in response to a post made by Tech/a over at reefcap, where he enquired as to the motives for trading options over shares. 

Well I think this is a great question.

I personally am using options more and more in my longer term trades. (that for me means 7 - 30 days)

My reasons:

*Limiting risk*

Nothing is worse for a short term trader than gaps against his position which may be mulltiples of intended risk. I hate risk!!! And it is a beast that can be tamed somewhat with the use of options.

*Flexibility*

You can contruct strategies where the optimum outcome will match your view of the particular market. If your view of the market changes, mid trade, you can adjust the position to reflect your new opinion. This is what Charles Cottle calls option metamorphisis.

*Trading without stops*

I have had some really great profits when my position has NOT done what I thought through this concept of option metamorphisis. For example, a vertical bull  call spread can turn into a reverse ratio spread (synthetically) and then finish of as a diagonal bear  spread.

I DO NOT use options for additional leverage. My maximum risk per tade is the same as with ordinary shares. However my ultimate risk is known absolutely, with the strategies I like to use, whereas with ordinary shares this is not possible in absolute terms.

On rare occasions I will write naked puts and covered calls, but only on bottom drawer stocks.

Well that my view. Any others?


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## positivecashflow (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

My Reasons:

Can trade any market direction: Up Down Sideways Gaps (yes there is a way!)

Fits my time frame of trading: Short Term (30 days to expiration) Medium Term (60-90 days to expiration) Long Term (1 year - 2 years)

Knowing my Limited Risk: I know the maximum risk per trade

Flexibility and Creativity: Creating the perfect trade (in my eyes) using the risk graphs and seeing the effect of time decay, and making ADJUSTMENTS if I get it wrong so I don't get hurt.  Strategies can be used that generate income or can be grown as a longer term portfolio.

CONTROL: Control of the underlying asset with less money down

Bottom line is STOCKS have an ugly looking risk graph!


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## crashy (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

well that is pretty concise, except the average person has no idea what you just said  : 

for me, its the ability to "be a seller of hope and a buyer of despair". This means writing calls when the bulls have lost momentum, and vice versa with bears and puts.

also, the idea of making money through time decay appeals.

then theres things only options can do. Like buying a straddle before major news, when you know the stock will move big but dont know which way. no other derivatives can be used in that situation.

often options can provide risk-free profits. My fold-line strategy is an example. all other derivatives contain *unlimited* risk. 

there is also another strategy which I am developing which is not only 100% risk free, but is self funding and returns around 36% p.a. on other peoples money.

dont think Im going to share that one, if everyone starts doing it they will close the loophole before I get rich off it. But as always, if I invent an even better system I will share the previous one   

and just to hammer home one of wayne's comments:

OPTIONS ARE A RISK-LIMITING INSTRUMENT

and their main use is to gain exposure while limiting risk. 

people have misconceptions and think options are highly risky. this is usually not the case unless the options are short dated, well out of the money or have very high I.V.

it is the leverage and the abuse of it that causes damage, dont blame the option.....


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## crashy (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				positivecashflow said:
			
		

> CONTROL: Control of the underlying asset with less money down
> 
> Bottom line is STOCKS have an ugly looking risk graph!




bingo!

think of it in real estate terms:

would you build a property portfolio by paying cash for every property?

or would you put down the minimum deposit and mortgage the rest?

then why are so many people fully funding shares?


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## positivecashflow (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				crashy said:
			
		

> people have misconceptions and think options are highly risky



 The person trading without knowledge is risky not the option!


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## crashy (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

the bedford guppys and tembys of this world will ensure there are always plenty of those kind of people.

a book titled "how options will kill you" wouldnt sell well would it? so they prefer to say:

"like to work a few minutes a day, working from anywhere with minimal effort and making copious amounts of easy cash? buy this book and I will show you how"


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## DTM (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Options can accomodate what ever style of trading you prefer and you can make more money than shares.


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## crashy (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

hope that didnt look like I was saying options are bad, I was trying to say that options book authors tend to omit many negatives and underplay the risks involved, and thats why newbies get fried. Had they been told the truth and known how to handle the risks they may have had more success.


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## positivecashflow (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				DTM said:
			
		

> Options can accomodate what ever style of trading you prefer and you can make more money than shares.




Hi DTM,

It's not that you can make MORE money than shares, the underlying factor is that the ROI (return on investment) is much higher when you trade options strategies.


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## DTM (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Thanks Posi

I stand corrected.

How do you put those quotes from other peoples posts into your own?


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## positivecashflow (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Click the QUOTE button on the right hand corner of a persons post!


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## DTM (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Mucho gracias



			
				positivecashflow said:
			
		

> Click the QUOTE button on the right hand corner of a persons post!


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## positivecashflow (19 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				crashy said:
			
		

> book titled "how options will kill you"




Where can I buy that book mate? :microwave


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## The Mortgage Adviser (20 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				positivecashflow said:
			
		

> My Reasons:
> 
> Flexibility and Creativity: Creating the perfect trade (in my eyes) using the risk graphs and ...
> 
> Bottom line is STOCKS have an ugly looking risk graph!




Do you know anything outside 'risk graphs'?????

I can't believe you know nothing else!

I noticed you have very limited funding. Maybe you should invest more in the actual investment rather than on useless software that you obviously cannot interpret properly.

Have you actually come to a conclusion whether I know what risk graphs are or not???

If you really want to get into a PROPER discussion instead of being a little *** all the time, I am happy to tell you the strategy I used to make heaps from covered calls and what information I would use to make a decision. Human nature and their reactions is a HUGE PART of investing. Try looking at things outside of just a 'risk graph'!

They are called 'risk graphs' for a reason. Using them alone is very RISKY!!!

Damn I am funny!


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## Bingo (20 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				The Mortgage Adviser said:
			
		

> Do you know anything outside 'risk graphs'?????
> 
> I can't believe you know nothing else!
> 
> ...





The Mortgage Adviser,

I must say that I am starting to find your comments offensive.

Bingo


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## tech/a (20 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Thanks Wayne for posting the question here.

I asked once--

*If you had one options Trading Method or Stratagy that you thought everyone should know how to trade what would it be?*

What do those here say?


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## wayneL (20 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Rob,

The more you talk on this subject, the more you lose credibility.

The software used for risk analysis on options is as cheap as....in fact the one I use is excel based and cost me nix. 

My charting software and data costs are about $80 per month.

My only other expense is my computer. I'm sure pos's situation would be similar.

From these, my income would be in the top 5% in the country.

No offices to lease, no staff, no insurances, etc etc and NO STRESS.

I would like to to compare that to the expenses column in yours or any other conventional business.

So your comments about the costs of software are clearly out of order.

So instead of bluster and insults, how about adding something constructive.

If you have a valid methodology, share it! Thats what these forums are for. Or don't mention it at all!

Cheers


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## wayneL (21 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				tech/a said:
			
		

> Thanks Wayne for posting the question here.
> 
> I asked once--
> 
> ...




Its a fair question Tech. But I don't think there is an answer it.

But I think that is the attractive thing about options; there is a strategy for any scenario you can think of, and, once a strategy is initiated, it common to adjust the strategy to suit a new and emerging scenario.

I know Nick likes the ratio backspread when asked this question, but there are many situations where backspreads are not ideal.

I like them as a defence when a vertical spread is going agaist me. But I never construct a backspread as an initial strategy...buts thats just me.

If I was forced to choose one strategy to use to the exclusion of all others, I wouldn't trade options at all.

Cheers


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## DTM (21 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				tech/a said:
			
		

> Thanks Wayne for posting the question here.
> 
> I asked once--
> 
> ...





I like only buying ITM calls and puts.


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## Bingo (21 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				tech/a said:
			
		

> Thanks Wayne for posting the question here.
> 
> I asked once--
> 
> ...




I have been trading options for around 20 years and so you naturally develop a trading pattern that suits you.

The way I trade depends on which way I see the market going. At the moment I see the market continuing to rise and so I sell ITM put options which either expire or I roll near expiry or I take delivery. I trade options on stocks that I see as on a rising trend. If I take delivery then I sell covered calls against this stock and so on.

Bingo


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## wayneL (25 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Another useful thing with options is combining stock and options.

For most people that means covered calls or married puts, which, synthetically is a naked short put or a long call. But most any option spread can be created with stock option combinations.

Most people don't realise that a fence (collar), synthetically, IS a Bull call spread; from there a synthetic put backspread...short or long straddles,  strangles, condors, butterflies, ratio spreads, can all be contructed synthetically from a simple long stock position.

I realise that's probably double dutch for many, but its a skill that is worth learning.....worth the migraine you'll get from learning to understand the greek bull**** and how to use them to your advantage.

Cheers


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## The Mortgage Adviser (27 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Bingo, I really don't care what you think.

Wayne, my credibility is not "at stake" here mate. I am just responding to comments made about the cost of his software. HE said it cost thousands. Personally, I don't care if he stole it and got it for free (which he probably did!).

It is easy to say you are one of the top 5% of earners in Aus when hiding behind a screen and I can say I have bigger balls than you. I personally do not care how much you earn but I hope you are successful at what you do. Maybe you could help positive (negative) cashflow earn some money!!!!

Regarding my negativity here, I have stated clearly on previous occasions that I only came here to challenge Positive Cashflow, JetDollars and NOW Baloo on their own turf. THEY challenged me to come here. THEY insulted me in PI.com. THEY started all this crap. 

Now I am wondering where they are. I believe admin would have told JetD to keep his mouth shut and deleted all those posts and as a result, Positive follows like a puppy dog and keeps quiet as well. 

As for Baloo, I just noticed some sly little comments directed at me at PI.com so I thought I would bring thatto this forum as well.

I enjoy PI.com when losers like JetD, Positive and Baloo aren't morons. I hope all the members here now know how it feels. 

Just ban me and be done with it...

Rob


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## Joe Blow (27 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				The Mortgage Adviser said:
			
		

> Just ban me and be done with it...




Okay. Wish granted.


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## Bingo (27 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				Joe Blow said:
			
		

> Okay. Wish granted.





Thank goodness.


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## JetDollars (29 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				tech/a said:
			
		

> Thanks Wayne for posting the question here.
> 
> I asked once--
> 
> ...




Trade inline with the direction of the overall market ie. bull market (currently) bull call spread, bull put spread ... and reverse if bearish market.

Maybe I should just say I don't know....LOL


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## The Barbarian Investor (30 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Dropped in on the end of this thread, however some comments look interesting and ill have to go  back to page 1 to see what "that" was all about???

Soooo wishes come true on this forum then??


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## The Barbarian Investor (30 January 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

......................................................Nope, still none the wiser after reading the thread as to why The Mortgage Advisor was going "off', guess it was a build-up from other post's.

i like wayne's answer to the best options strategy..all of them, guess thats why there called options, you have so many options  

However the more i learn about them the less i feel i know, looks like you need a PHD from the bloody University of philidelphia to keep up and understand them all


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## Mega Rich (6 February 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				DTM said:
			
		

> Thanks Posi
> 
> 
> 
> "How do you put those quotes from other peoples posts into your own?"




*David (Alias: Mega Rich) here! * 

In answer to your question about "how do you put those quotes" in...SIMPLE...at the bottom right-hand corner of the "post" you will see an icon that says "QUOTE"!  Just click on it and a new thread will open up with a quote in it from the one you were just reading!

You can (as I am now!) just add in your own comments!!

*Cheers:  Mega Rich*.


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## dracula (15 February 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Hi guys,

If anyone can answer me a simple question I would be very thankful.

Let's say I sell 1 FEB PUT QAN 3.75
If I get exercised, do I need the $$ for the 1000 shares, or is it  possible to buy 1 PUT 3.75 to close the position?
dracula


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## JetDollars (20 February 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*



			
				dracula said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> If anyone can answer me a simple question I would be very thankful.
> 
> ...




Let me try:

If you got exercise then you got to come up with the money within 3 days or just sell the shares back to the market as soon as you got them.

But if you don't get exercise then you can just by 1 put to close the position.


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## dracula (21 February 2005)

*Re: Options-Why?*

Jet$,

I called my broker (HSBC), and they want the balance on the same day I get exercised, otherwise they sell the stock at the end of the day.


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