# Best markets to trade for a living - full or part-time



## baby_swallow (9 April 2010)

For all budding daytraders who wanted to make a living (NOT a killing), I recommend you trade Futures, preferrably stock index futures, like the SPI200, S&P emini, DJEuroStoxx50, FTSE, etc.
Advantages:
- Concentrate only on few markets, leaving extra time for other important things in your life.
- Big bang for your bucks - thats why its the daytraders bread&butter
- low capital requirements and low trading commissions.
- low research - dont have to know hundreds of companies 
Disadvantages:
- difficult to trade at first because of volatility but you get used it once you know the trick when to enter and exit.
I've tried stocks (blue chips and penny dreadfuls), options, CFDs and Forex - they didnt gave me the kind of return and convenience of trading like Futures.


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## nomore4s (9 April 2010)

Baby Swallow out of curiosity what futures market(s) do you trade?

And how long have you been trading futures?


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## brty (9 April 2010)

I could of sworn there use to be a "what he said" smilie.

brty


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## baby_swallow (10 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Baby Swallow out of curiosity what futures market(s) do you trade?
> 
> And how long have you been trading futures?




Mainly ES & SPI and occassionally other commodities.
Been trading futures since 2006.


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## brty (10 April 2010)

BS,

What is the basic premise for your trading methodology that you think is a no-brainer for newbees??

brty


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## jampola (11 April 2010)

brty said:


> BS,
> 
> What is the basic premise for your trading methodology that you think is a no-brainer for newbees??
> 
> brty




As above. interested.


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## Wysiwyg (11 April 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> - Concentrate only on few markets, leaving extra time for other important things in your life.




Yes the less research involved is a huge time saver. Keep it simple ... a few indices, a few currencies, a few commodities and get to know them intimately.


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## vincent191 (11 April 2010)

brty said:


> BS,
> 
> What is the basic premise for your trading methodology that you think is a no-brainer for newbees??
> 
> brty




Me too.


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## baby_swallow (12 April 2010)

brty said:


> BS,
> 
> What is the basic premise for your trading methodology that you think is a no-brainer for newbees??
> 
> brty




As a daytrader, it is very important to be aware of the major Support/Resistance of the trading day. I make my trade decisions based on the price action around S/R levels. 
S/R is easy enough for newbies to understand and yet this important "indicator" is being neglected or misunderstood. 
My advice to newbies is to spend some time to observe and take notes on how price behave when it reaches a S/R level.

_________________________________________________________
Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, and it becomes a part of the ceremony - Kafka


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## baby_swallow (12 April 2010)

Here's a good example of what Support/Resistance is all about for daytraders.
On today's SPI, there is an overhead resistance of 5005 (R3 pivot). If you have a resting short order at 5004 you got filled. If you exited just before 10am cash market open, you have made 10 points. That is $250 for one contract. 
The trick to long term survival in this game is not to be too greedy. Don't overstay your visit. There is a very bullish sentiment going on and your are actually betting against it. You're here to make a living and NOT a KILLING. If you're a newbie and your intention in playing this game is to make a KILLING, there's a good chance you're going to get killed first. 

__________________________________________________________
Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, and it becomes a part of the ceremony - Kafka


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## Joe Blow (12 April 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, and it becomes a part of the ceremony - Kafka




baby_swallow,

If you wish for a specific quote to be at the bottom of every post you make, please put it in your signature: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/account/signature

That way you wont have to cut and paste it each time and it wont be quoted by those responding to your posts.


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## nomore4s (12 April 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> Here's a good of what Support/Resistance is all about for daytraders.




SPI could range like that all day though, providing limited opps for day-traders.

It's fine to say trade off S&R but you still need to know

1) Which way it will move
2) And when it will actually start to move
3) If it will move enough either way to give good R/R


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## baby_swallow (12 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> SPI could range like that all day though, providing limited opps for day-traders.
> 
> It's fine to say trade off S&R but you still need to know
> 
> ...




Thanks Nom..
Am just giving an example of what an S/R is in trading as I mentioned in my previous post. Of course, a newbie has a lot to learn what the principles behind this particular trade. But its up to him/her to research how market really works. We're here giving some few pointers


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## Twiddle (12 April 2010)

What would you suggest for someone looking to trade between the hours of 5:30pm and 10:30pm?


Is it possible to trade overseas markets without paying large brokerage fees?


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> What would you suggest for someone looking to trade between the hours of 5:30pm and 10:30pm?
> 
> 
> Is it possible to trade overseas markets without paying large brokerage fees?




Forex, Ftse 100(UK), Dax (Germany), Oil, Gold. US pre open futs,

Huge amount to trade in that time all cheaper than trading the ASX.


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## nomore4s (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Forex, Ftse 100(UK), Dax (Germany), Oil, Gold. US pre open futs,
> 
> Huge amount to trade in that time all cheaper than trading the ASX.




Crude is a ripper to trade, loving it


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## Twiddle (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Forex, Ftse 100(UK), Dax (Germany), Oil, Gold. US pre open futs,
> 
> Huge amount to trade in that time all cheaper than trading the ASX.




Thanks a lot for your suggestions. As you can tell I am a complete beginner. 
I am under no illusions however, i realise i have years of hard work and learning ahead of me, and will not be trading any time soon. I am currently in the process of figuring out if it is even a viable option for me. 

Can you please explain how they are cheaper than trading ASX? (which as far as i know is $30 + percentage per trade)


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Can you please explain how they are cheaper than trading ASX? (which as far as i know is $30 + percentage per trade)




ASX stocks through one of the retail brokerages (commsec, etrade etc) are probably the most expensive market to trade in the world. $30 cost for $10,000 trade where futures are around $3 for a $60,000 - $100,000 dollar trade.

Thats expensive


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> ASX stocks through one of the retail brokerages (commsec, etrade etc) are probably the most expensive market to trade in the world. $30 cost for $10,000 trade where futures are around $3 for a $60,000 - $100,000 dollar trade.
> 
> Thats expensive




So far all I am familiar with is the ASX from paper trading, I find just from being familiar with stocks and observing what the market is doing in real time I am able to get a reliable indication of what to buy and when. The paper trading is going well. (I realise this is not a true representation, but it is at least a positive sign)


Is futures trading more of a guessing game, or are you able to get the same amount of real time information and indicators etc as you can do with regular stocks?

If one only has a few hours a night to trade, can they be effective within that time frame?


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Is futures trading more of a guessing game, or are you able to get the same amount of real time information and indicators etc as you can do with regular stocks?
> 
> If one only has a few hours a night to trade, can they be effective within that time frame?




Twiddle,

Trading of any instrument should not be a "guessing game", you should have a method/system  & plan that provides positive expectancy.

Trading futures offers twice as many opportunities as shares imo and is a hell of a lot cheaper but you need to be an experienced trader with a good system & plan and understanding of how the markets work. Ask nearly any futures trader and you will find out most of them lost money at first, I myself lost over $20k when I started trading futures and it was a real wake up call but it's paying off now.

You also need to decide what sort of trader you want to be. Trading shares for a couple of hours each night means you will be an EOD trader and hold time will be anything from 2 weeks to 6+ months depending on how you trade. Trading futures you will be more of a intra-day trader and hold anywhere from less then 1 min to maybe a couple of hours again depending on how you choose to trade.

I posted my results from yesterdays trading but I deleted it, I will reattach it now to give you an idea of what is achievable trading futures. The results are from about 20min of trading on the SPI yesterday and about 3 hours of trading Crude last night.

Quick disclaimer though - It has taken me a lot of hard work and as above I lost a quite bit of money not paying my dues and respecting the market enough. And while I'm not in the class of someone like TH, to get to this level isn't easy, you need to put in a lot of time, practice and a decent sized account  - futures are not a instrument for the inexperienced.

Good luck.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Twiddle,
> 
> Trading of any instrument should...




Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.

Are the any good resources of places to start for someone like me that you would suggest?

I am aiming for a year of research before I enter the market.


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.
> 
> Are the any good resources of places to start for someone like me that you would suggest?
> 
> I am aiming for a year of research before I enter the market.




First, if you are serious about trading futures the best thing to do would be open a Interactive Brokers account so you can get a demo account through them set up. Be warned though, it is a bit of a tedious process and requires a minimum capital requirement.

Once you have a demo account you can look at the different markets and how they move etc etc.

Secondly, search this forum for info on futures trading and read as many of TH's post as possible and also check out his blog as well as this blog.

You will also need to decide what instrument you want to trade & over what time-frame and also how you are going trade it - as in what method/system you are going to use. And then you need to learn to apply that method, which is the hard part.

It will take a while for everything to sink in but you will need to practice and practice and practice. Just keep asking questions on this forum as they come up and normally someone will answer them. Just be prepared to put in a lot of hard work.

Good luck.


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## Wysiwyg (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Secondly, search this forum for info on futures trading and read as many of TH's post as possible
> 
> Good luck.




This poster is a scalper, yes? I would like you to show us a post/postings where the art of scalp trading is explained please. Thanks.


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> This poster is a scalper, yes? I would like you to show us a post/postings where the art of scalping is explained please. Thanks.




I'm not really a scalper, although I do tend to scalp on Crude a bit more then I usually do.

TH is probably the best to answer that, if he is willing.

While TH is a scalper it is his understanding of the markets and knowledge of how to improve & practice you should be concentrating on, not his methods.


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## Trembling Hand (13 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> This poster is a scalper, yes? I would like you to show us a post/postings where the art of scalp trading is explained please. Thanks.




Actually my core method has moved away from true scalping, looking to do bigger size with larger targets but still pretty active but that doesn't make me a scalper.

By the by you will not get a 10 step program to scalping or any other short term discretionary trading. Its the implicit knowledge that makes the difference between success and just another newbie blowing up an account on the race to riches.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> You will also need to decide what instrument you want to trade & over what time-frame and also how you are going trade it - as in what method/system you are going to use. And then you need to learn to apply that method, which is the hard part.
> 
> It will take a while for everything to sink in but you will need to practice and practice and practice. Just keep asking questions on this forum as they come up and normally someone will answer them. Just be prepared to put in a lot of hard work.
> 
> Good luck.




Thanks again.

In choosing a method/system are their resources for learning specific systems? Do you have any suggestions on a good one?


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## SmellyTerror (13 April 2010)

MS&T did a scalping thread a while back, if you're interested in an outline: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15175

Because it's such a good, free resource for new folk, and becuase Forex is open to pretty much any time frame and style, and because a lot of the general themes are transferable to several other types of trading, I think this is one of the best resources around: http://www.babypips.com/school/

Forex has really suited my routine, since my job keeps changing hours. Not that I've got money in it yet (mine's in two-week share CFDs - breakouts and half-arsed fundamentals), but this is the most enjoyable stuff I've found and what I plan to do longer term. Stressed from work? Hop on to IB and play Forex. 

It's like tetris, only there's hopefully some money at the end of it.


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> In choosing a method/system are their resources for learning specific systems? Do you have any suggestions on a good one?




Trial & error.

To be honest you really need to develop your own method based on your understanding of the markets and how you like to trade. This is why it takes so much hard work to become profitable and why so few actually become profitable. Most people are looking for a magic system when in fact it is your own experience, understanding & views on the market that have the most influence on your profitability.

I could give you a run down on how I trade but that doesn't mean it would work for you, in fact I could almost guarantee it wouldn't. You need to adapt things to suit your own needs.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Trial & error.
> 
> To be honest you really need to develop your own method based on your understanding of the markets and how you like to trade. This is why it takes so much hard work to become profitable and why so few actually become profitable. Most people are looking for a magic system when in fact it is your own experience, understanding & views on the market that have the most influence on your profitability.
> 
> I could give you a run down on how I trade but that doesn't mean it would work for you, in fact I could almost guarantee it wouldn't. You need to adapt things to suit your own needs.




OK, so it seems like research, learning and practice are in order until one is completely familiar with the market. Once then a system should naturally evolve?

I took a look at Interactive Brokers, it seems you need a 10k investment to open a paper trading account with them. Are you aware of any others which offer free paper trading accounts which will have all the required things for learning?

While I can afford the 10k and will use that in the future, I would just like to learn more about it before hand, if you get what i mean.


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> OK, so it seems like research, learning and practice are in order until one is completely familiar with the market. Once then a system should naturally evolve?
> 
> I took a look at Interactive Brokers, it seems you need a 10k investment to open a paper trading account with them. Are you aware of any others which offer free paper trading accounts which will have all the required things for learning?
> 
> While I can afford the 10k and will use that in the future, I would just like to learn more about it before hand, if you get what i mean.




Twiddle, IB is probably the best as it is the platform that you will probably been using and gives direct access to the markets - completely different to CFD's.

You will get interest on the money and you should be able to withdraw it after opening the account. Not aware if there are any other good options available.

Yes after a while a system does tend to evolve but tbh it will probably take you more then a year. It is like any other profession or trade it takes a great deal of time & practice to become efficient at it.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Twiddle, IB is probably the best as it is the platform that you will probably been using and gives direct access to the markets - completely different to CFD's.
> 
> You will get interest on the money and you should be able to withdraw it after opening the account. Not aware if there are any other good options available.
> 
> Yes after a while a system does tend to evolve but tbh it will probably take you more then a year. It is like any other profession or trade it takes a great deal of time & practice to become efficient at it.




OK great, IB it is.

Thanks for your help.


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## Trembling Hand (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> OK great, IB it is.
> 
> Thanks for your help.




As much as i luv IB and hate all that CFD stand for and provide. Maybe have a look at them as well.at least it will cost you nothing. IB will cost you $10 USD a month plus data if you are not trading.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

Oh and one lost piece of advice if i may.

Which market, specifically, would be the best to trade, living in NSW and planning to trade from 5:30 pm to 10:30pm at night?

I need to pick one so I can start familiarising myself with it and start my learning process.


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## nomore4s (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> OK great, IB it is.
> 
> Thanks for your help.




In saying that you probably don't need to open an account straight away, as you still need to get the basics of how the futures markets work. Things like contract roll overs etc etc.

While I've never really looked at this site properly it might be a good place to start to understand the basics

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-essentials-of-futures-and-options-trading.html


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> As much as i luv IB and hate all that CFD stand for and provide. Maybe have a look at them as well.at least it will cost you nothing. IB will cost you $10 USD a month plus data if you are not trading.




Thanks for the suggestion.

You guys are so helpful.

Going down that route I would still be able to familiarise with the same markets as I would be looking at with IB, just using an inferior way to interact with it?


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## Trembling Hand (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Oh and one lost piece of advice if i may.
> 
> Which market, specifically, would be the best to trade, living in NSW and planning to trade from 5:30 pm to 10:30pm at night?
> 
> I need to pick one so I can start familiarising myself with it and start my learning process.




Pick 3. that way you learn how markets move in correlation to others.

I'd say 1 forex EURUSD, one Equity Index DAX or FTSE & one commodity gold or oil.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

nomore4s said:


> In saying that you probably don't need to open an account straight away, as you still need to get the basics of how the futures markets work. Things like contract roll overs etc etc.
> 
> While I've never really looked at this site properly it might be a good place to start to understand the basics
> 
> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-essentials-of-futures-and-options-trading.html




Cheers, yeah I plan on learning for a while before opening an IB account anyway.


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## Trembling Hand (13 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Going down that route I would still be able to familiarise with the same markets as I would be looking at with IB, just using an inferior way to interact with it?




Yep same markets but not they are synthetic. that is the prices are "made" by the provider rather than market participants. To get a toe in thats not going to matter much until you play for a few months or more.


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## Twiddle (13 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yep same markets but not they are synthetic. that is the prices are "made" by the provider rather than market participants. To get a toe in thats not going to matter much until you play for a few months or more.




Great, thanks a lot.

Let the research begin.


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## Kryzz (13 April 2010)

I would've thought the best market (futures) for a beginner would've been the mini hang seng index futures contract, margins are quite small and tick value is a little over $1 AUD, however from my calcs. you would need to make about 6 ticks just to b/e. 

Any other futures contracts with small margins/tick size, with small commissions out there that move as well as the hsi?


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## >Apocalypto< (13 April 2010)

Kryzz said:


> I would've thought the best market (futures) for a beginner would've been the mini hang seng index futures contract, margins are quite small and tick value is a little over $1 AUD, however from my calcs. you would need to make about 6 ticks just to b/e.
> 
> Any other futures contracts with small margins/tick size, with small commissions out there that move as well as the hsi?




Alot of the mini futs can have average spreads....... E mini an exception to that!


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## Kryzz (13 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Alot of the mini futs can have average spreads....... E mini an exception to that!




should've mentioned trading hours too, another attraction for asian markets


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## baby_swallow (14 April 2010)

"Evolution of a Trader" 

Author - Unknown 

1. We accumulate information - buying books, going to seminars and 
researching. 

2. We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge. 

3. We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more 
knowledge or information. 

4. We accumulate more information. 

5. We switch the markets we are currently following. 

6. We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' 
knowledge. 

7. We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. 
Fear starts setting in. 

8. We start to listen to 'outside news' and to other traders. 

9. We go back into the market and continue to 'donate'. 

10. We switch markets again. 

11. We search for more information. 

12. We go back into the market and start to see a little progress. 

13. We get 'over-confident' and the market humbles us. 

14. We start to understand that trading successfully is going to 
take more time and more knowledge than we anticipated. 

MOST PEOPLE WILL GIVE UP AT THIS POINT, AS THEY REALISE WORK IS 
INVOLVED. 

15. We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real' 
methodology. 

16. We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that 
something is missing. 

17. We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our 
methodology. 

18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our 
trading rules. 

19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some 
success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to 
execute. 

20. We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more 
proficient with our rules. 

21. We feel we are very close to crossing that threshold of 
successful trading. 

22. We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we 
understand that our success is in us, not the methodology. 

23. We continue to trade and become more proficient with our 
methodology and our rules. 

24. As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and 
our results are still erratic. 

25. We know we are close. 

26. We go back and research our rules. 

27. We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the 
market and trade. 

28. Our trading results are getting better, but we are still 
hesitating in executing our rules. 

29. We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the 
results of our trades when we don't follow the rules. 

30. We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack 
of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear) 
and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better. 

31. We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more 
about ourselves. 

32. We master our methodology and our trading rules. 

33. We begin to consistently make money. 

34. We get a little over-confident and the market humbles us. 

35. We continue to learn our lessons. 

36. We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading 
becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues 
to grow as we increase our contract size. 

37. We are making more money than we ever dreamed possible. 

38. We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had 
always dreamed of.


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## Twiddle (14 April 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> "Evolution of a Trader"
> 
> Author - Unknown




That is interesting.

I am guessing this ties in accurately with your personal experience baby_swallow?


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## spibok (14 April 2010)

Dont mean to hijack, but was wondering Trembling if you could elaborate on your change of style/what brought it about etc. Enquiring minds must know!


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## waza1960 (14 April 2010)

> Author - Unknown
> 
> 1. We accumulate information - buying books, going to seminars and
> researching.
> ...



The Points above describe my trading journey with alarming accuracy but after that I deviate from your evolution as follows:



> 18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our
> trading rules.



I took the sabbatical to learn Mechanical Automated Trading through Ninja Trader


> 19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some
> success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to
> execute.



This doesn't apply to me as the computer never hesitates to take a trade.
IMO mechanical trading removes all the problems stated in steps 20 to 35.
All I have to do his concentrate on making better systems and let the computer execute them, no more pschco babble.Using Technical Anaylsis as a means to look for repeatable patterns.
BTW I'm only up to step 35 ATM but can see step37 in sight.


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## >Apocalypto< (14 April 2010)

waza1960 said:


> The Points above describe my trading journey with alarming accuracy but after that I deviate from your evolution as follows:
> 
> 
> I took the sabbatical to learn Mechanical Automated Trading through Ninja Trader
> ...




so what happens when you wake up and find your system over night has given you 20% draw down?? the emotions and self confidence would be shaken I would say!

I hear that a lot from bot traders but I fail to see how you can get off any better. I could imagine after a few bad days you have to ask yourself what do I do now tweak it or let it run my account possibility into the ground! once you go to the tweaking you're still in those steps.


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## ThingyMajiggy (14 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> so what happens when you wake up and find your system over night has given you 20% draw down?? the emotions and self confidence would be shaken I would say!
> 
> I hear that a lot from bot traders but I fail to see how you can get off any better. I could imagine after a few bad days you have to ask yourself what do I do now tweak it or let it run my account possibility into the ground! once you go to the tweaking you're still in those steps.




Yeah I agree. 

Both discretionary and automatic trading still need to adapt to changing market conditions, its just whether you manage to adapt before you go bust I'd say. So your system works good now, doesn't mean it always will imo. Everything needs constant review & analyzing so you can identify when that change is happening.


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## >Apocalypto< (14 April 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Yeah I agree.
> 
> Both discretionary and automatic trading still need to adapt to changing market conditions, its just whether you manage to adapt before you go bust I'd say. *So your system works good now, doesn't mean it always will imo. Everything needs constant review & analyzing so you can identify when that change is happening.*




i agree with this... the real acid test of any new idea that you run in the market is.... TIME (really applicable to short term chartists)


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## baby_swallow (14 April 2010)

Twiddle said:


> That is interesting.
> 
> I am guessing this ties in accurately with your personal experience baby_swallow?




Yep, very accurate indeed. Who ever wrote this must be a genius in trader's psychology.
It was a very painful learning process for me. I blew my account twice and nearly ended my marriage. But it didn't deter my resolve, instead it made me more determined to succeed. There was a time that I thought of quitting, but then I thought quitting now would be a total surrender and I can't take that. I already invested so much on this and I learned a lot from my mistakes. I know I got what it takes and just a matter of time I'll be winning this game.
Blowing my account, although painful, was actually a blessing. It thought me discipline and patience - controlling the devil in me - FEAR and GREED.

Imo, losing money and learning from it, is a pre-requisite to succeed in this game.
----(more on these soon.......)


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## baby_swallow (14 April 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> baby_swallow,
> 
> If you wish for a specific quote to be at the bottom of every post you make, please put it in your signature: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/account/signature
> 
> That way you wont have to cut and paste it each time and it wont be quoted by those responding to your posts.




Joe,
I tried creating my signature but it doesn't insert automatically when I create a new post. Should I manually insert it?
B_S


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## Wysiwyg (14 April 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> *But it didn't deter my resolve, instead it made me more determined to* *succeed.* There was a time that I thought of quitting, but then I thought quitting now would be a total surrender and I can't take that. I already invested so much on this and I learned a lot from my mistakes. I know I got what it takes and just a matter of time I'll be winning this game.




And identifying with this determination, even defiance, the market will cut you down time and again. You don't beat the market, you move with it.


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## >Apocalypto< (14 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> And identifying with this determination, even defiance, the market will cut you down time and again. You don't beat the market, you move with it.




very true!

I have noticed every-time I have three weeks of non stop winning I get into the king of the market complex and I set myself up for a mental fall. This is a area that I am really working hard on to solve. As it's not the 3-5 trades I drop that hurts it's the confidence collapse that really stings! 

emotions damn it, i don't need em!


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## waza1960 (14 April 2010)

> so what happens when you wake up and find your system over night has given you 20% draw down?? the emotions and self confidence would be shaken I would say!



Thats true if that was possible.However with all systems having Stops,allowing for slippage and using a mini fx account its not relevant to me.


> I hear that a lot from bot traders but I fail to see how you can get off any better. I could imagine after a few bad days you have to ask yourself what do I do now tweak it or let it run my account possibility into the ground! once you go to the tweaking you're still in those steps.



This is true and this is where a little psychology does come into it however if you have designed a system that has say being backtested since 2007 with all the ups and downs and news events of the markets and say has not endured anymore than three stop outs in a row then you simply stop trading and revise the system once you have exceeded this.


> Both discretionary and automatic trading still need to adapt to changing market conditions, its just whether you manage to adapt before you go bust I'd say. So your system works good now, doesn't mean it always will imo. Everything needs constant review & analyzing so you can identify when that change is happening



Totally agree ..... once my stop outs exceed the designed level its time to revise those systems.I'm a believer in the Hypothesis that we are attempting to exploit ineffiencies in the market and eventually all systems cease to be effective however I have found so far that you can adjust some mechanical systems to keep them in tune with the market to lengthen their life.


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## Trembling Hand (14 April 2010)

spibok said:


> Dont mean to hijack, but was wondering Trembling if you could elaborate on your change of style/what brought it about etc. Enquiring minds must know!



 Size, and all things change, see below comment



waza1960 said:


> This is true and this is where a little psychology does come into it however if you have designed a system that has say being backtested since 2007 with all the ups and downs and news events of the markets and say has not endured anymore than three stop outs in a row then you simply stop trading and revise the system once you have exceeded this.



Then what? Go again? I think you are actually setting up for "a little psychology " trouble. It doesn't matter what method you play with sooner or later you will trip on one of the landmines. 

There is no getting away from the fact that on every time scale from tick out to monthly that the changes are forever constant. Both directional AND volatility. Systems have the same problem as discretionary traders. One gets in sync spectacularly at times and the world is there for you to conquer like taking candy off a baby. 

But inevitably ones falls out of sync whether its directionally, range vs trend or volatility or lack thereof. Sooner or latter it will get you. System trader or not backtested or not.


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## waza1960 (14 April 2010)

> Then what? Go again? I think you are actually setting up for "a little psychology " trouble. It doesn't matter what method you play with sooner or later you will trip on one of the landmines.



You either adjust the existing systems or bring on new ones + you run a number of systems together so that they complement each other.But I'm not dissagreeing with you I'm just saying that the Psychology aspect is greatly minimized IMO .



> There is no getting away from the fact that on every time scale from tick out to monthly that the changes are forever constant. Both directional AND volatility. Systems have the same problem as discretionary traders. One gets in sync spectacularly at times and the world is there for you to conquer like taking candy off a baby.



Agreed


> But inevitably ones falls out of sync whether its directionally, range vs trend or volatility or lack thereof. Sooner or latter it will get you. System trader or not backtested or not.



   Again agreed however if you are confident in your systems and they are automated then it is much easier to stop them when they get out of sync because you are removed from the process of entering or exiting the trades .You are simply monitoring and checking that the systems are performing as they should .


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## >Apocalypto< (14 April 2010)

waza1960 said:


> *You either adjust the existing systems or bring on new ones + you run a number of systems together so that they complement each other.*But I'm not dissagreeing with you I'm just saying that the Psychology aspect is greatly minimized IMO .




Wazza, no attack here but that's so hard if not impossible to do, change with the market as it changes how? you don't know what it's changing to!. 

As a chartist I have found this so hard to deal with at times, a strong flow in the trends. then bang no more follow through. you get hit on a couple then you think what's up here? in that state your a little confused and it's a new market how do you know what system to apply to it, if it hasn't confirmed to you what type of market it is? 

on the short term it happens all the time, i don't swap methods I just try to ride it out. But from what I have experienced it so bloody hard to be spot on when a market volatility, range and momentum changes. 

IMO if you could pick this as it happens perfectly, then you would not need bots systems or anything you would be a phenomenal trader.


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## waza1960 (14 April 2010)

> Wazza, no attack here but that's so hard if not impossible to do, change with the market as it changes how? you don't know what it's changing to!.



Agree however my focus is not as narrow as  you describe I'm not interested in changing as the market changes or what it is changing to in a short time frame . Because I have multiple systems on multiple Fx pairs I'm dealing with probabilities of probabililties and not reliant on the success and failure of one system . Because I have backtested over at least two years (especially the last 2 )I know that if my system suddenly has more stop outs then what occurred during backtesting then I will pull the system and discard it or modify it.




> on the short term it happens all the time, i don't swap methods I just try to ride it out. But from what I have experienced it so bloody hard to be spot on when a market volatility, range and momentum changes.



I know what your saying but with my systems I believe I haven't done my job unless I  have backtested over a wide range of market conditions but again I'm not trying to to be spot on just be ahead on probabilities



> IMO if you could pick this as it happens perfectly, then you would not need bots systems or anything you would be a phenomenal trader.



 True but back to reality


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## frugal.rock (22 January 2022)

Twiddle said:


> What would you suggest for someone looking to trade between the hours of 5:30pm and 10:30pm?






Trembling Hand said:


> Forex, Ftse 100(UK), Dax (Germany), Oil, Gold. US pre open futs,



You could always trade crypto's?
You trade those 24/7 if you like.
Might want to give it a few days though, they seem to be having a bit of a spaz at the mo.


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