# Mentored Trading/Investing



## zac (5 March 2012)

This is basically a duplicate of a post ive made on another forum. (more detail in this post however)

Over the past year Ive become very keen in trading / investing.
I took the plunge and actually paid for a course, which im glad I did as its already paid for itself. I am very keen to make a career out of trading.

Anyway my question here is, ive now been given the opportunity to get mentored by an expert. Is there anyone here that has been mentored and if so what is their experience with it and if its ok can you mention by who.

Also when I say mentor program, I basically mean a 1 on 1 type mentor program that gives individual attention. Yes they are pricey, however given the returns ive seen possible I have no doubt that it would pay for itself rather quickly yet im wary at the same time.


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## Trembling Hand (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Yes they are pricey, *however given the returns ive seen possible* I have no doubt that it would pay for itself rather quickly yet im wary at the same time.



I hope you meant audited broker statements not other made up crud?


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## zac (5 March 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> I hope you meant audited broker statements not other made up crud?




Sorry I meant possible from my own experience based on expert opinion. Not information sought from these people. Hence I know if they are experts as such the potential is there, but that is just my opinion also.

I am keen to learn more on asymmetric trading. Ive one trade at the moment that im holding has so far made me 750% since December.

So when it comes to mentoring from experts, thats the sort of knowledge id be looking for. ie regular income strategies and then the gold nuggets that come by every so often.


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## Trembling Hand (5 March 2012)

> from my own experience based on expert opinion.



 You can also win the lottery.


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## zac (5 March 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> You can also win the lottery.




Im talking trading, not gambling.
Please keep comments appropriate to the topic.


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## Trembling Hand (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Im talking trading, not gambling.





So you are going to pay someone a largish amount of money without any proof that they know what they are talking about or are actually profitable with the method that they will be showing you for $'s.

That to me sounds like a gamble. Doesn't it?


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## Gringotts Bank (5 March 2012)

Who has offered to mentor you?


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## zac (5 March 2012)

Im trying to do some due diligence in the process.
Ive been fortunate to have success with a course, line of study of done but again I did lots of background searching.

Ive not mentioned on this forum my success as such, ie yields/return due to the NaySayers. However the returns ive made im happy to reinvest into furthering my education/knowledge.

As for who is the mentor. Id be happy to speak personally about it but I wont publish names/companies for everyones viewing.


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## tech/a (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> As for who is the mentor. Id be happy to speak personally about it but I wont publish names/companies for everyones viewing.




So we are to disclose everything and you zippo?




> Anyway my question here is, ive now been given the opportunity to get mentored by an expert. Is there anyone here that has been mentored and if so what is their experience with it and *if its ok can you mention by who*.




What *exactly* is it you seek from the forum---the question.?


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## zac (5 March 2012)

tech/a said:


> So we are to disclose everything and you zippo?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Im happy to disclose but just as is occuring I dont want a **** fight on here, hence why I said id be happy discussing 1 on 1.


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## tech/a (5 March 2012)

tech/a said:


> What *exactly* is it you seek from the forum---the question.?




So you want to discuss one on one our mentors so you can compare with the one you have?
Have I at least got that right?

Is there anything that your thinking you maybe missing with the one you currently have and by the sound of it----achieving positive results for you?

Due diligence is something you normally do BEFORE you make a decision.
After generally smells like something is just not right.

How are you being mentored?
Teaching you fundamental or technical methods?

Don't dismiss T/H's wise counsel either he's not being argumentative.


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## zac (5 March 2012)

I actually dont have a mentor.
The one that I got a call from today to consider was through ASR. A 12 month program.
I have since viewed a sample webinar and its very much technical based so not sure its up my alley.
I prefer fundamentals with technicals to guage entry/exit points.

When I said I was achieving positive results, thats only after having done a course and not mentored as such. Ive still a long way to go.

Ive my eye on another mentoring program which is 6 months but same cost. Anyway ive patience and happy to sus it all out further.

To be honest id be happy with being mentored by other like minded traders, not necessarily so called experts that charge a premium.
For example with what I do now im part of a small group and when we do trades we post them and critique then as good, bad or otherwise. From a confidence point of view thats been invaluable.

As for what I seek from this forum, anyones personal opinion who has been mentored etc.


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## tech/a (5 March 2012)

I may be wrong but boiling it down it seems your wanting to know wether investing in a mentor is value.
Or can you get what you need from others in similar situations.
My answer is the same as this.



Trembling Hand said:


> So you are going to pay someone a largish amount of money without any proof that they know what they are talking about or are actually profitable with the method that they will be showing you for $'s.
> 
> That to me sounds like a gamble. Doesn't it?




Or not pay people who probably know as much or as little as you do.
Most who make money out of the markets spend the 10000 or so hrs of learning their craft.
Mentors are hard to find.
The best I've found are those you find--- not find you!

Determine what it is you want to know.
How to trade is pretty broad.
How about
Risk
Position sizing
Timeframe
Instrument/s to trade.
Method


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## zac (5 March 2012)

tech/a said:


> I may be wrong but boiling it down it seems your wantin to know wether investing in a mentor is value.
> Or can you get what you need from others in similar situations.
> My answer is the same as this.




Yeah I want to know from someone that has used a mentor, to see if it was valuable to them.  I dont mean someone that has done a generic course but an actual mentorship, they typically cost $15k, far more than a course.

I certainly wont go through one that I havent any confidence in and one theres no transparrency through.

Anyway, as ive noticed on this site, not too many people have done courses, rather educated through books etc, so im not sure anyone will be able to make comment.


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## IFocus (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Yeah I want to know from someone that has used a mentor, to see if it was valuable to them.  I dont mean someone that has done a generic course but an actual mentorship, they typically cost $15k, far more than a course.
> 
> I certainly wont go through one that I haven't any confidence in and one there's no transparrency through.
> 
> Anyway, as ive noticed on this site, not too many people have done courses, rather educated through books etc, so im not sure anyone will be able to make comment.




Mentoring should come from a successful trader verifiable nothing less. 

Proof of this is very easy no ifs no buts. 

Personally I know of only one successful trader thats paid a fortune for mentoring (he was just dumb lucky)

Agree with TH and Tech some one contacting you is possibly suss = gambling.

Personally used a local trader here in Perth years ago and a long time web site (he who can not be named on ASF)

I don't trade like any of them any more but the basics always apply. 

As Tech said 10,000 hrs should just about do it read this its pretty good 

"Outliers: The Story of Success" by Malcolm Gladwell


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## tech/a (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Yeah I want to know from someone that has used a mentor, to see if it was valuable to them.  I dont mean someone that has done a generic course but an actual mentorship, they typically cost $15k, far more than a course.
> 
> I certainly wont go through one that I havent any confidence in and one theres no transparrency through.
> 
> Anyway, as ive noticed on this site, not too many people have done courses, rather educated through books etc, so im not sure anyone will be able to make comment.




Well my mentor didn't even know he was a mentor-- he still is 17 yrs later.
I've paid for instruction through him over the years but it's been more an observation of how he does things than what he does.

It's the way he thinks.
I'd say over the years I've invested $20k +

But it's not the $$s
Being able to observe is priceless if you know what it is your observing!


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## Trembling Hand (5 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> "Outliers: The Story of Success" by Malcolm Gladwell




Yep thats a good one.


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## zac (5 March 2012)

Thats all good to hear 
Also the information on this site I find all over the place, too many people I think have a negative mindset so its hard to filter out the good from the bad.
But having said that im not sure where trading talk or ideas are mentioned in this site.
The ones I have read end up in arguments and people being negative.


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## tech/a (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Thats all good to hear
> Also the information on this site I find all over the place, too many people I think have a negative mindset so its hard to filter out the good from the bad.
> But having said that im not sure where trading talk or ideas are mentioned in this site.
> The ones I have read end up in arguments and people being negative.




Answer is simple
Digest that which you find useful and ignore the rest.


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## Julia (5 March 2012)

zac said:


> Yeah I want to know from someone that has used a mentor, to see if it was valuable to them.



How can you make any sort of valid judgement by someone saying to you, "hey zac, yes I had a mentor and it was really worthwhile"?
You don't know the person giving the testimonial, you don't know what form the mentoring took, you don't know the capacity or skills of either the novice or the mentor.   How are you going to judge the value of the reported comment?




> I certainly wont go through one that I havent any confidence in and one theres no transparrency through.



What is it about any potential mentor that will give you a basis for confidence and an assurance that you are not wasting your money?


IFocus said:


> Agree with TH and Tech some one contacting you is possibly suss = gambling.



Agree also.  Why is someone cold calling you if he/she is so successful?



zac said:


> Thats all good to hear
> Also the information on this site I find all over the place, too many people I think have a negative mindset so its hard to filter out the good from the bad.



It could be that the membership of this site and others are just really negative people, but I doubt it.
Perhaps consider as an alternative, that many years of experience from several people already commenting on this thread give them a valid reason to be sceptical of what is being offered to you.



> But having said that im not sure where trading talk or ideas are mentioned in this site.
> The ones I have read end up in arguments and people being negative.



Possible translation of the above:
"I'm not happy when people on this site do not overwhelmingly endorse my idea that someone telling me what to do on a one-on-one basis is a fantastic idea."

I'm not trying to pour cold water, zac, just suggesting you could perhaps rethink this whole concept unless you personally know someone who is a proven performer and who is prepared to undertake the gruelling task of teaching a novice.


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## zac (5 March 2012)

Theres a lot of assumptions there.
and while I ask for comments, opinions etc all they will ever be are circumstantial information with no real basis unless someone can back them up.
Hence im just after an opinion. Not sure why everyone gets so matter of fact and a bee in their bonnet.

Re the offer/call I had, it wasnt a cold call. I made some enquiries that led me down the path.

Anyway I will consider this thread closed, while I encourage skepticism, the threads tend to become more cynical.


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## tech/a (6 March 2012)

zac said:


> Theres a lot of assumptions
> 
> Anyway I will consider this thread closed, while I encourage skepticism, the threads tend to become more cynical.




Hmmm don't know about that!

I'd suggest the poster is the cynical party in this thread.


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Maybe so,
Anyway I appreciate all the constructive comments and advice offered.

I hope to make a career out of this eventually hence why im keen to learn as much as I can.
At the moment while successful from a percentage point of view my capital isnt quite large enough yet. Also im looking to expand on my types of trades.


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## Trembling Hand (6 March 2012)

zac said:


> I hope to make a career out of this eventually hence why im keen to learn as much as I can.




Zac how old are you?

What types of trading do you do now? Have you done any formal education(Uni etc)?


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Zac how old are you?
> 
> What types of trading do you do now? Have you done any formal education(Uni etc)?




In my 30s and ive not been to uni yet started out as an electronic engineering tradesperson.
Currently I work in the legal arena so ive never been exposed from a work perspective to the finance sector.

I consider myself a step above beginner and I may have given the wrong impression that im at a higher level when infact im not. Im just forward thinking and trying to lay out a map of how to get there.

Currently I am trading mainly American markets with both monthly income strategies and longerterm trades for capital gain.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2012)

zac, the vibe you're giving off is very uncertain.  Given that, why would you go ahead?

When in the history of mankind has someone felt wary and uncertain of a project/person and yet things have worked out nicely?  It doesn't work that way.  Deep down you know this too.

*Successful people never go looking for students, EVER.*  Students go looking _for them_, and they have to jump through hoops to even get noticed.


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> zac, the vibe you're giving off is very uncertain.  Given that, why would you go ahead?
> 
> When in the history of mankind has someone felt wary and uncertain of a project/person and yet things have worked out nicely?  It doesn't work that way.  Deep down you know this too.
> 
> *Successful people never go looking for students, EVER.*  Students go looking for them, and they have to jump through hoops to even get noticed.




The joys of words without voice inflection LOL
I dont mean to come off as uncertain and yeah youre right.
Successful people dont go looking for people however I could start a whole new topic there. I could name a few (not necessarily in finance) who do look to impart their knowledge.

Ive decided against that mentor purely due to his methods dont fit into mine.
On another note I actually sought them out.

There is another mentor where he will only accpt people after an application process.
Whilst I do have uncertainty ahead I have lots of certainty as to the path I want to take.
Cheers


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2012)

Good to hear.  You just saved yourself $15000.

Might as well put that money to use.  Pick a stock, hit 'buy', have a target and a stop... then teach yourself from the experience.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2012)

Here's one, no charge!

CCC - put a buy in at 25.5.  When/if you get filled, sell at 35 *or* 23.5 *or* 2 months, whichever of those 3 events happens first.


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## skc (6 March 2012)

zac,

Have you ever had a mentor in other situations? E.g. work, personal life etc?

Regardless of how good your mentor may be, it takes a fair bit of effort to make any mentorship works. If you've never had a mentor before, do a quick google to see how to get the most out of a mentorship. That will get you thinking exactly what you should be looking for, and be able to assess whoever happens to come your way.

Remember a mentor isn't someone who tells you whether you should be using 15 or 20-day moving average on your charts. It is someone who guides you to solve the problem on your own, while also offering motivation, feedback and emotional support etc.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2012)

I'm generally against mentoring because very few successful people know how or why they are successful.  They will say "just do this... do that", then you do it yourself and it doesn't work, then they look at you blankly and say "well I don't know why that didn't work, because that's what I do".    If it was simply a matter of "do this...do that", all you'd have to do is read a book by any successful trader and just "do this do that"....right?

A good mentor is primarily a good observer.  He will know you inside and out, know your hidden motivations, your weaknesses, strengths.  But to be picked up by a top coach you'd probably have to show a lot of natural talent and/or aptitude.  Thorpe didn't get to be coached by Nugent because he "wanted to be a top swimmer".

Bit of a catch-22.  That's why I say, teach yourself.


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Fair call,
Good question though, have I ever had a mentor before in life.
Ive had coaches as such and at the moment im part of a coaching community (not fiannce related) and I guess thats where I realise the potential in quality coaching/mentorship.

Another good point, its not a case of one size fits all. Its like having a good counsellor, they need to be able to relate to you.
I beleive to get success though you do need some form of guidance. Sure you can be great on your own but results will be synergistic with other resources.

At the moment I guess I already am seeking some guidance through a paid service im going through although not personalised.
I notice others have similar on ASF through pricey subscriptions to other services.

So as for pursuing a quality mentor/coach I will keep my eyes open but understand it might not happen.


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## Trembling Hand (6 March 2012)

You want a trading mentor? Go get a gig at a prop shop. End of story.


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> You want a trading mentor? Go get a gig at a prop shop. End of story.




Prop shop??


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## Trembling Hand (6 March 2012)

zac said:


> Prop shop??




http://www.propex.net.au/

http://www.aliom.com.au/pages/view/careers

http://www.silkroadcapital.com.au/

http://prop-traders.net/


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## zac (6 March 2012)

Ok,
Cheers, thanks heaps.
I think ive gotten the answers im looking for now.
What ive realised is there are a lot of people that do trading and a lot of experts. Most of them I wouldnt want to be coached by.

Of note my trading Id like to eventually get into is Global Markets, therefore not limited to just ASX, S&P500, Nikkei etc.
Therefore I realise now if my radar picks up on someone I like or a style I like, I will then pursue that avenue.

So thanks so much for everyones responses here. While it may not seem it through the posts, ive a lot more clarity now on how to go about this


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## tech/a (6 March 2012)

> Bit of a catch-22. That's why I say, teach yourself.




Dont have enough time for myself let alone someone else!


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## herzy (16 April 2012)

tech/a said:


> Dont have enough time for myself let alone someone else!




+ 1. Not that I'm in a position to teach anyone lol! I'm currently doing my best to teach myself as Gringotts Bank recommends, but it's easier said than done...


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## zac (16 April 2012)

fair call,
Its hard to find someone that wants to give back and do good for others.
They are out there though. I hope oneday I can become successful and give back too.


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## peter2 (16 April 2012)

Most beginners and unprofitable traders don't work hard enough to become profitable. Their work is not disciplined nor is it applied persistently. Their trading plans are incomplete and they give up too easily. A mentor can provide the structure but they can't make a person do the work every day or every week. A mentor can't make someone more patient, more persistent. A mentor can  educate and help a prospective trader to survive. Hopefully, to survive long enough to develop the mindset and skills to be profitable. A mentor is not the easy way to profits only a faster way if you have the right stuff (borrowed phrase). 

IMO it starts with detailed records of all your trades. These records (or spreadsheet) is the start to your trading career. You can monitor the quality of your performance and all of your trading decisions. Are your setups perfect? Are your entries done at the right time? Did you buy the right number of shares for your starting risk? Did you add when you should? Did you reduce the risk when you should? Did you exit at your initial SL, trailing stop or profit target?  You can monitor everything you want if you want to improve. Set your standards very high. Aim for >95% (nobody is perfect). This allows me only one mistake in every 20 trades. 

Monitoring my own performance shows me that I can be profitable with >90% execution quality. I lose money when my performance drops to 80%. It's a fine line between profit and loss. 

If you want to know what you are good at and what you need to improve you don't need a mentor. Just look at your trading records. It's all in there if you want it bad enough.


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## zac (16 April 2012)

I understand what youre saying, but I dont necessarily agree.
Even people like Tony Robbins, Tiger Woods, Warren Buffett. 
They all have mentors.
People see it as a weakness when its actually a strength.


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## herzy (17 April 2012)

peter2 said:


> Most beginners and unprofitable traders don't work hard enough to become profitable. Their work is not disciplined nor is it applied persistently. Their trading plans are incomplete and they give up too easily. A mentor can provide the structure but they can't make a person do the work every day or every week. A mentor can't make someone more patient, more persistent. A mentor can  educate and help a prospective trader to survive. Hopefully, to survive long enough to develop the mindset and skills to be profitable. A mentor is not the easy way to profits only a faster way if you have the right stuff (borrowed phrase).
> 
> IMO it starts with detailed records of all your trades.
> 
> If you want to know what you are good at and what you need to improve you don't need a mentor. Just look at your trading records. It's all in there if you want it bad enough.




The problem I have is knowing where to start. I recognise the value of record keeping, but before that, there's only so much general information gathering I can do, before I'm at a loss as to where to go from here. (e.g., putting theory to practice in a specific trading plan, narrowing down real companies, etc). For these things I think a mentor would be invaluable. 



zac said:


> I understand what youre saying, but I dont necessarily agree.
> Even people like Tony Robbins, Tiger Woods, Warren Buffett.
> They all have mentors.
> People see it as a weakness when its actually a strength.




I don't think he was saying mentors are useless, just that often people see them as a way of avoiding hard work. However, I am not averse to hard work, and certainly intend to do thorough record keeping, but feel a mentor would be useful as a reference person for guidance and bouncing off ideas etc...


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## tech/a (17 April 2012)

herzy said:


> *The problem I have is knowing where to start.* I recognize the value of record keeping, but before that, there's only so much general information gathering I can do, before I'm at a loss as to where to go from here. (e.g., *putting theory to practice in a specific trading plan*, narrowing down real companies, etc). For these things I think a mentor would be invaluable.




I chose technical Analysis 18 yrs ago because I could cut out a lot of ambiguity.
The nail is in Black.
Where to start for me was choosing a vehicle with which to trade. 
Then Understanding it.
Then learning how to TRADE WITH IT.
*Practical application of any trading methodology is pretty well impossible to find.*
The biggest secret is learning how to trade---regardless of vehicle used.
Once you know that 70% of the battle is won.



> I don't think he was saying mentors are useless, just that often people see them as a way of avoiding hard work. However, I am not averse to hard work, and certainly intend to do thorough record keeping, but feel a mentor would be useful as a reference person for guidance and bouncing off ideas etc...




Everyone should search out someone who actually practices whatever it is they wish to be proficient at.
Ive found the information they can impart will often gel your learning into something coherent.


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## herzy (17 April 2012)

tech/a said:


> Ive found the information they can impart will often gel your learning into something coherent.




Exactly.


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## burglar (10 March 2013)

My mentor was self taught.
Decades of Experience, Magazines, Newspapers and the like.

I got to borrow those resources.
We'd discuss all manner of things arising therefrom.

When he thought I was right, he would encourage me.
When he thought I was wrong, he'd explain his view.

So what was his most valuable gift.

Confidence!!


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## zac (10 March 2013)

burglar said:


> My mentor was self taught.
> Decades of Experience, Magazines, Newspapers and the like.
> 
> I got to borrow those resources.
> ...




Cheers Burglar, I see you're from Adelaide too.

What type of instruments and markets would your mentor trade in?


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## burglar (10 March 2013)

zac said:


> Cheers Burglar, I see you're from Adelaide too.
> 
> What type of instruments and markets would your mentor trade in?



Western Suburbs boy!

ASX, FPO's, Medium Term, Buy and hold strategy.
And yes, he has passed away.


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