# Rich People's Thread



## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.

May I start a thread for those of us of means.

I have sold down over the last 2 years my stocks and am stuck with some property.

Let us have a thread for those of us a net worth more than 5 million.

Where to from here?

Stock accumulation. REITs or stay in cash?

gg


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## Ageo (12 March 2009)

Boasting are we GG


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## beamstas (12 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.
> 
> ...





All on red 

Thanks
Brad


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

Ageo said:


> Boasting are we GG




No mate, not boasting , had a vf huge fortune, now just have a f huge one.

Lost a fair bit.

Just honest

gg


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## cuttlefish (12 March 2009)

Thats very irresponsible advice beamsta's ....

... everyone know's blacks got much better odds.


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## beamstas (12 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> Thats very irresponsible advice beamsta's ....
> 
> ... everyone know's blacks got much better odds.




I can see it on the papers tomorrow..
Disgruntled forum poster loses fortune on red -- sues fellow forum go-er for giving misleading financial advise as black clearly has better odds --


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## beerwm (12 March 2009)

true,

all poor people do is whinge and whine,

we live in a country where hardwork/purpose/ambition can make you rich quick.

If you're in a position where you need $900 you have failed the 'money' game.
[bar those with immense hardships]


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## Gordon Gekko (12 March 2009)

Wow GG 5m!!
You should be sleeping on a large pile of money with many naked beautiful women.
Or better yet take one of them to Orpheus Island Resort so you can show them how much of a high roller you are!!

All I got to say is nice work mate. How ever you got it, whether it was given or you made it. You still got it and that is a hard thing to achieve over years.

I'm 33 and there is no doubt in my mind that I will do the same.

Best of luck

G


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## tech/a (12 March 2009)

> Where to from here?
> 
> Stock accumulation. REITs or stay in cash?





Its going to be tough.
Already noticing those here in Civil Works as I am buying work.(Pricing just to keep people employed and "Hoping" for variations to churn a profit).
A few Construction Companies have gone Belly up and hear a few more dont look real good---would suprise many who--but they are rumors.

Worse 
Had a large contract pulled from under us only this week.
Letter of intent,our production met with their production and mapped out start dates.Friday placed many large orders.
Tuesday (Holiday here Monday)
Email---Due to Economic Downturn we have decided to produce these works from within---thank you for---blah blah.
This is going to happen more as we get used as a pricing service---

To a personal level.
Doing some re adjusting with trusts and property coupled with SMSF and a veiw of minimising personal gearing.(Not prepared to go into the mitty gritty).

Trading is really minor relative to the other 2 but generates enough to be "Handy". Not prepared to trade with real size---best utilised elsewhere.

I'm personally not doing a great deal in the next 12 mths.
A lot will be gleened in that time.
I'm looking at interest rates in that time and lock down what exposure I have when I see Unemployment either stop falling or turn Up from down,coupled with an eye on oil--you got it --inflation.

You wont see these interest rates again-- not in my lifetime.
Looking to update the fleet as no one wants plant--but not wise unless I can maintain growth--so far thats still happening.

Property 
Looking to get back into developement later in the year again if----
And if--if-- is OK the opportunities will be plentiful.
Must time it right before inflation goes balistic which at sometime it will---hence the gearing.

Actually I love these times a REAL challenge.


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## nizar (12 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.




Good work brother.
I agree wholly, and though I don't qualify, I'll follow this thread with interest.


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## Dowdy (12 March 2009)

5 million is nothing. 

I've got 5 trillion - in Zimbabwe dollars


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## Trevor_S (12 March 2009)

beamstas said:


> Disgruntled forum poster loses fortune on red -- sues fellow forum go-er for giving misleading financial advise as black clearly has better odds --




Then sues the Bank for letting him take the money out in the first place ... They should have know better !


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## beamstas (12 March 2009)

Dowdy said:


> 5 million is nothing.
> 
> I've got 5 trillion - in Zimbabwe dollars




I have 20 trillion in nigerian dollars
And an email from the princes son-in-law to prove it.

It is currently sitting in my nigerian bank account waiting for me to withdraw it.


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## Gundini (12 March 2009)

Thank God for some positive news! It's been gloomy on here...

While I don't qualify, will be keeping some tabs on you rich folk since you have gone public! 

Good work GG...


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## Dukey (12 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.
> 
> ...




I've got a better idea than this elitist bullcarp GG.

why don't you with all your nouse and savvy dollar-smarts, do something useful and start an 'investment for poor people' thread where you can impart a small measure of your valuable knowledge and gloriousness onto the whining plebs?? tell them how to become a millionaire like you.

- or you could rebalance the equation and donate your much needed property to the salvos.

$900 is a mint to some poor buggers who have probably deserved better since birth.

... actually - dunno why I'm even bothering myself with this minor rant. It'll just tickle your fancy i expect.

- please do continue.. 
- live and let die...
- move along folks - nothing to see here.

over and out from me...


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Its going to be tough.
> Already noticing those here in Civil Works as I am buying work.(Pricing just to keep people employed and "Hoping" for variations to churn a profit).
> A few Construction Companies have gone Belly up and hear a few more dont look real good---would suprise many who--but they are rumors.
> 
> ...




Your experience mirrors mine, though I'm not as close to the action on the ground as you are. Many mates of mine concur and have similar stories.  

The beaming comments from your reply on a macro level are 


*I'm looking at interest rates in that time and lock down what exposure I have when I see Unemployment either stop falling or turn Up from down,coupled with an eye on oil--you got it --inflation.

You wont see these interest rates again-- not in my lifetime.

*

thanks tech

gg


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## Gundini (12 March 2009)

No doubt this thread was started to create controversy!

Seems we didn't have to wait long


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

Gundini said:


> No doubt this thread was started to creat controversy!
> 
> Seems we didn't have to wait long




No mate, its aussiestocksforum.

This thread is for  
those with equity, not those unfortunate not to be of means.

Harden up mate.

gg


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## Gundini (12 March 2009)

I was actually talking about Dukeys post.

And don't worry GG, I may be without your means, but my skills are such that I would be one of the people you source.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

Gundini said:


> I was actually talking about Dukeys post.
> 
> And don't worry GG, I may be without your means, but my skills are such that I would be one of the people you source.




sorry mate.

gg


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## Gundini (12 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You wont see these interest rates again-- not in my lifetime.
> 
> [/B]
> 
> ...




Yes agree. Lock in your exposure in rediness for inflation...

Do you rich people have access to those special bank rates us plebs don't get offered? 

Without having huge cashflow or assets, how can the average Joe Blow (no pun intended) access these rates? Any tips?


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## jetblack (12 March 2009)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Wow GG 5m!!
> You should be sleeping on a large pile of money with many naked beautiful women.




or

You should be sleeping on many naked beautiful women with a large pile of money.


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## 2BAD4U (12 March 2009)

Dukey said:


> ...why don't you with all your nouse and savvy dollar-smarts, do something useful and start an 'investment for poor people' thread where you can impart a small measure of your valuable knowledge and gloriousness onto the whining plebs?? tell them how to become a millionaire like you....




Work.  Don't rely on hand-outs.  Don't always look for the easy options.  Don't always blame someone else for your problems.  Don't rely on other people to do it for you.  Take some risks.  Get your priorities right.

There's just a few tips, I'm sure others can add to them.

GG, can I have an associate membership and upgrade to gold membership when I do hit 5 mil?


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## nunthewiser (12 March 2009)

blessya GG another fine thread


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> Work.  Don't rely on hand-outs.  Don't always look for the easy options.  Don't always blame someone else for your problems.  Don't rely on other people to do it for you.  Take some risks.  Get your priorities right.
> 
> There's just a few tips, I'm sure others can add to them.
> 
> GG, can I have an associate membership and upgrade to gold membership when I do hit 5 mil?




Mate, with that attitude I'd be very surprised if you don't achieve your dreams and goals.

Would you buy stocks in this market? by the way, and if so in what sector.

gg


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## Julia (12 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> Work.  Don't rely on hand-outs.  Don't always look for the easy options.  Don't always blame someone else for your problems.  Don't rely on other people to do it for you.  Take some risks.  Get your priorities right.



Good advice.   In other words, take responsibility for your own outcomes.
We are where we are as a result of the decisions we have made.


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## GumbyLearner (12 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Good advice.   In other words, take responsibility for your own outcomes.
> We are where we are as a result of the decisions we have made.




I agree Julia that is good advice.

Everyone should take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.


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## 2BAD4U (12 March 2009)

GG

I've been buying for the last few months, gotta love it when dividend yields hit 10%+.  Also topped up on Wesfarmers (SPP at $13.50) and Westpac (at $15)

Also looking at another investment property, think the time is just about right.  I've been sitting back watching prices, interest rates, etc, and some properties are now positive from day one.  Got the go ahead from the bank this week so will see what happens over the next couple of months.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> GG
> 
> I've been buying for the last few months, gotta love it when dividend yields hit 10%+.  Also topped up on Wesfarmers (SPP at $13.50) and Westpac (at $15)
> 
> Also looking at another investment property, think the time is just about right.  I've been sitting back watching prices, interest rates, etc, and some properties are now positive from day one.  Got the go ahead from the bank this week so will see what happens over the next couple of months.




thanks mate I'll take that on board.

I'm looking at SUN.

gg


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## nizar (12 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> Also looking at another investment property, think the time is just about right.  I've been sitting back watching prices, interest rates, etc, and some properties are now positive from day one.  Got the go ahead from the bank this week so will see what happens over the next couple of months.




Im thinking either the same thing (property) OR a business, but Im gonna wait 3-6 months as i think rates will go lower.


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## GumbyLearner (12 March 2009)

GG

I'm financially nowhere near your league mate.
But it's great that you are a member of ASF and I have always valued the wisdom of
your posts regardless of your net worth. Even though they do seldom annoy at times.

cheers
gumby


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## 2BAD4U (12 March 2009)

nizar said:


> Im thinking either the same thing (property) OR a business, but Im gonna wait 3-6 months as i think rates will go lower.




Got nothing to lose by waiting and watching.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> GG
> 
> I'm financially nowhere near your league mate.
> But it's great that you are a member of ASF and I have always valued
> ...




Thanks mate, more sweat than anything and a lot of luck.

Keep at it , guys like you make for a great Australia.

We'll get through this much stronger.

I appreciate your opinions.

gg


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## Glen48 (13 March 2009)

GG
Do you have A/C under the new Carbon Credit rules you need to change the Gas to Puron to help reduce Global Warming. I can do this for you are a reduced rate and only charge you $1,000.00 and give you a certificate for CC which you can sell to your local energy supplier, I can also help you with your insurance because AIG is going broke you maybe not insured. I will be back in Australia once I can get off this Island and sort out my Bank account.
We also offer assistance with Bank cards, reverse mortgage, and next week lotto numbers ... for a fee of course.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 March 2009)

Glen48 said:


> GG
> Do you have A/C under the new Carbon Credit rules you need to change the Gas to Puron to help reduce Global Warming. I can do this for you are a reduced rate and only charge you $1,000.00 and give you a certificate for CC which you can sell to your local energy supplier, I can also help you with your insurance because AIG is going broke you maybe not insured. I will be back in Australia once I can get off this Island and sort out my Bank account.
> We also offer assistance with Bank cards, reverse mortgage, and next week lotto numbers ... for a fee of course.




lol
Once Richie Rich Rudd goes , this will all be a pleasant memory, like that bridge in S.Australia , can't remember its name but you know the one I mean.

I've only won lotto twice, 5 and a supp once and six with a host of single mums the second time.

Take care mate

gg


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## JTLP (13 March 2009)

GG - highly value your input and even though there is no way of telling your actual financial status...kudos to you if you are in the millions. A lot of people want to cut you down...but no matter how you got it...its yours...so all the best.

Alas

I am a poor lad...young (past) student with the dollar signs in his eyes...but I believe I am rich in intangible ways...like world knowledge post world trip  :

You can learn an awful lot if you keep your eyes open, mouth shut* and ears pricked...

*that being said...nothing wrong asking all the right questions at the right time =)...I put it in context of being a student...


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## Stan 101 (13 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> Got nothing to lose by waiting and watching.




Interesting. I'm getting close to feeling my time for waiting and watching is up. I'm seeing pockets of value in realesate right now. Talking to as many real estate agents as I can in many different areas. Finance is ready to go... 


cheers,


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## tech/a (13 March 2009)

Dukey said:


> I've got a better idea than this elitist bullcarp GG.
> 
> why don't you with all your nouse and savvy dollar-smarts, do something useful and start an 'investment for poor people' thread where you can impart a small measure of your valuable knowledge and gloriousness onto the whining plebs?? tell them how to become a millionaire like you.




Did that a while ago.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10162

Happy to continue that thread.Opportunity comes in the most unlikely times and places.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> lol
> Once Richie Rich Rudd goes , this will all be a pleasant memory, like that bridge in S.Australia , can't remember its name but you know the one I mean.




Hindmarsh Island Bridge,Secret womens business (There wasnt any).We were involved in some of the construction of the Bridge abutments.

*LUCK.*
Placing yourself in a position where luck can play a part is more important than you think. (I'm not talking lotto).
Without doubt much of my business saavy has come from PLACING myself in a position where "Luck" can take place.

Quick example.
Started in earnest back in 1995 buying property.
The Southern Expressway (Adelaides laughable excuse for a freeway) was on my desk for tender (we tendered the retention on the project).
I live at the end of the Expressway---a beach wine district.
I went home and suggested to my wife we invest NOW as the Expressway was going ahead.
We did and by the time it was finished had 4.
Then this wonderful housing boom happened along--soon it was 10.

Friends openly suggested we were nutters--(I didnt disagree!).
So was it good planning or luck.
Sound investment was good planning.
Amazing return was *LUCK*.
If you dont place yourself in front of opportunity it has no hope of hitting your bank account!


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## nizar (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Did that a while ago.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10162
> 
> Happy to continue that thread.Opportunity comes in the most unlikely times and places.




Until now I still tell my friends the story about your mate George.
Some of them are getting annoyed because I've told them more than once.
But watta legend the Latvian.
Outside the square thinking at its very best!


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## Prospector (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Hindmarsh Island Bridge,Secret womens business (There wasnt any).We were involved in some of the construction of the Bridge abutments.




Ah the Bridge - bought a waterfront block of land a month before the bridge was finished; in two years it had more than doubled in price!  Sold it just before the marina dried up, now the price is back to where it started, if you could sell it.

Those abutments - they would be the ones out of water now?  Just as well they built it, otherwise Hindmarsh Island would be stranded now as there is no water for the ferry.


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## Bushman (13 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Mate, with that attitude I'd be very surprised if you don't achieve your dreams and goals.
> 
> Would you buy stocks in this market? by the way, and if so in what sector.
> 
> gg




Why take the risk of a blow-up (looking at you GPT and GMG you wasteful mothers) - buy the index via an ETF. Its the index that is oversold. 

PS: property will be hot in about 12-18 months time. Problem at the moment is that 3 out of 4 of the banks have shut up shop and will not lend to anyone new. To refinance, they are charging margins of 200-400 basis points plus a line fee of 100 bp! Ouch. But Kruddy will lean on them pretty hard to get lending again. But let me tell you, the punters are salivating at the thought of A-grade office and retail properties at +7.5% yields in most CBD-centres. Wait six-months or so, get a few of your rich bad boys together in a syndicate, buy an A-grader in Adelaide, Canberra or Melbourne at +8% yield (preferably with a gov't tenant), hold it for 5-years, and sell it at the top of the market to some young punk fund manager earning $250k per year for Macquarie  

Tech - development properties will be given away in the next 12-months as the banks will not refinance them. You will never see the likes of it again. Some will be ****e but amongst it all will be some real gems. And, to make things even better, as you say interest rates are at generational lows. Bit of patience required and plenty of due dilligence but there will be money to be made!


WHOOPS - FORGOT THE DSICLAIMER. IMO, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, I HAVEN'T A CLUE, etc.


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## kincella (13 March 2009)

i thought, when interest rates go down so do the returns on commercial...you know the cap rate...so you expecting interest rates at 7.5% in 18 months ????
in the meantime they should be returning 5% or less...expect for the rubbish about all the listed property trusts..being sold for a pittance....I doubt it but  could be wrong
cheers


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## nizar (13 March 2009)

Bushman said:


> Why take the risk of a blow-up (looking at you GPT and GMG you wasteful mothers) - buy the index via an ETF. Its the index that is oversold.
> 
> PS: property will be hot in about 12-18 months time. Problem at the moment is that 3 out of 4 of the banks have shut up shop and will not lend to anyone new. To refinance, they are charging margins of 200-400 basis points plus a line fee of 100 bp! Ouch. But Kruddy will lean on them pretty hard to get lending again. But let me tell you, the punters are salivating at the thought of A-grade office and retail properties at +7.5% yields in most CBD-centres. Wait six-months or so, get a few of your rich bad boys together in a syndicate, buy an A-grader in Adelaide, Canberra or Melbourne at +8% yield (preferably with a gov't tenant), hold it for 5-years, and sell it at the top of the market to some young punk fund manager earning $250k per year for Macquarie
> 
> ...




Bushman.
Great post, I agree wholly.
Keen to hear tech's view though.

Kincella.
I thought commercial leases were generally locked in longterm 5-10 years??


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## kirtdog (13 March 2009)

I'm 21, with about $13000 in the bank in cash, and about $7000 in shares (lost a fair bit). All I can say is how the F%$^ do I end up with 5 mil at a decent age to spend it.. I've researched a lot about shares, looked into forex, tried poker machines and punting but to me everything is purely a gamble/educated guess... With a full time job there is no time to open my own business which would probably fail anyway based on statistics.. Maybe I should just buy a buddha statue and pray heaps.. Please help me!!!!


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## pilots (13 March 2009)

kIRTDOG, You buy land, only land.  Now is the time to buy.


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## MS+Tradesim (13 March 2009)

kirtdog said:


> I'm 21, with about $13000 in the bank in cash, and about $7000 in shares (lost a fair bit). All I can say is how the F%$^ do I end up with 5 mil at a decent age to spend it.. I've researched a lot about shares, looked into forex, tried poker machines and punting but to me everything is purely a gamble/educated guess... With a full time job there is no time to open my own business which would probably fail anyway based on statistics.. Maybe I should just buy a buddha statue and pray heaps.. Please help me!!!!




Start by reading _The Millionaire Next Door_ by Stanley and Danko.


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## Bushman (13 March 2009)

kincella said:


> i thought, when interest rates go down so do the returns on commercial...you know the cap rate...so you expecting interest rates at 7.5% in 18 months ????
> in the meantime they should be returning 5% or less...expect for the rubbish about all the listed property trusts..being sold for a pittance....I doubt it but  could be wrong
> cheers




Cap rates is a multiplier you are willing to pay on recurring property income. So if you have an office returning $1m p.a. an it is sold at a cap rate of say 10%, you end up paying $10m. Thus cap rates (or market yields) is thus a measure of the riskiness of that income stream. That is why an A-grade office tower tenanted with government or blue-chip tenants will sell at a lower cap rate than say a C-grade 2-storey office in Wogga Wogga. 

As you note, there is usually a fairly constant spread between cap rates for property classes and the 10-year bond rate (ie the risk-free rate). Thus, as the cash rate fall, cap rates fall to maintain that risk premium. However, at the moment that relationship is in tatters due to: 
1. a glut of motivated sellers in the market (i.e. GPT, Centro etc); 
2. the banks are charging a risk premium well above the risk-free rate on commercial property loans as their loan books are fully allocated to commercial; and
3. the likely economic downturn playing havoc with lease market 'fundamentals' i.e. higher vacancies (leading to lower face rentals), greater incentives (leading to lower effective rentals), negative net absorption in boom towns like Brisbane and Perth etc. 

So all this is leading to cap rate expansion despite the decrease in cash rates. As with all asset classes, there will be a 'flight to quality' and prime property will be less affected than secondary stock. 

However, in the long run, the historical spreads between cap rates and 10-year bonds are likely to return. 

Also, Nizar, retail leases to Woolworths and Coles are usually 20-odd years, and office leases to governments and blue-chips is usually 5-10 years. These also typically have annual rental reviews at a minimum of inflation - hence why property is an inflation hedge (i.e. assuming cap rates stay steady, valuations will increase at the rate of inflation). 

Hope that helps. Cheers B'man


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## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

I think it's too early to do anything, I'd love to take advantage of the low interest rates but I dont need to borrow, plenty of cash and no where to put it.

Will go for property but I'm waiting till all the crap washes through the system, look at whats happened just since Christmas ???, and there's worse to come a lot worse, we've been a bit sheltered, that wont last and we will cop the reality in the coming months, remember it's still only March.

When it hits the fan property will tumble and thats when I'll go in.


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## kincella (13 March 2009)

I have seen retail cap rate at 5% or lower, so if you buy at 10% and sell at 5% its a good deal...I bought at 10% cap and may offload a little one at 5%
or less by the middle of the year..should be some small smsf snooping around by then
think Ing and bankwest were offering commercial at 6% in Dec...
I got mine down to less than 8%....the break fees with the 6% worked out even...


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## tech/a (13 March 2009)

Underpressure at the mo and will get to other topics soon.



kirtdog said:


> I'm 21, with about $13000 in the bank in cash, and about $7000 in shares (lost a fair bit). All I can say is how the F%$^ do I end up with 5 mil at a decent age to spend it.. I've researched a lot about shares, looked into forex, tried poker machines and punting but to me everything is purely a gamble/educated guess... With a full time job there is no time to open my own business which would probably fail anyway based on statistics.. Maybe I should just buy a buddha statue and pray heaps.. Please help me!!!!




Try this.
Sit down with a calculator and start with $50/week and add 10% for 10 yrs and compound it.

After 10 yrs add to it $100/week not $50 as in 10 yrs time you could afford more and keep doing the same thing for another 10

After another 10 yrs make the yearly input $150/week
Still compounding the total by 10% each year.

After another year take it to $200/week still compounding the total at 10%

By then you'll be 61
see what that figure is.

Its the power of constant saving and compounding.
You'll be amazed.


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## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think it's too early to do anything, I'd love to take advantage of the low interest rates but I dont need to borrow, plenty of cash and no where to put it.
> 
> Will go for property but I'm waiting till all the crap washes through the system, look at whats happened just since Christmas ???, and there's worse to come a lot worse, we've been a bit sheltered, that wont last and we will cop the reality in the coming months, remember it's still only March.
> 
> When it hits the fan property will tumble and thats when I'll go in.




Gday burnsie ..... good thinking m8 


we havent even hit the tip of the unemployment iceburg .... we not even started to see the snowball roll yet ..

time will win the ladies in property


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## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Underpressure at the mo and will get to other topics soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




um . i understand the concept and YES it works 

just wondering who is paying 10% tho


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## noirua (13 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us have a thread for those of us a net worth more than 5 million.
> 
> Where to from here?
> 
> ...



You don't say 5 million what?  If it's sheep that's great but if it's termites you could be near bankruptcy.


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## tech/a (13 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> just wondering who is paying 10% tho




Thats up to you as an entrepeneur.

But as an example.

You put 20% down on a house and it appreciates 3% a year
Thats 12% on your investment.
Now of course over your 40 yrs of investment you'll get periods of negative periods of average and then periods of astounding.
Over that time you will be able to achieve an average of 10%.

if of course you think like an entrepeneur and most of all you learn what to look for and how to apply it

IT being compounding and LEVERAGE and doing IT correctly.


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## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Thats up to you as an entrepeneur.
> 
> But as an example.
> 
> ...




totally agree re saving , compounding and investing wisely is the path to true wealth 

just picking bones really


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## kincella (13 March 2009)

whoops, just realised I don't qualify for this thread I have a few mill but not yet 5...does it have to be 5 mill to qualify ???


----------



## nizar (13 March 2009)

kirtdog said:


> I'm 21, with about $13000 in the bank in cash, and about $7000 in shares (lost a fair bit). All I can say is how the F%$^ do I end up with 5 mil at a decent age to spend it.. I've researched a lot about shares, looked into forex, tried poker machines and punting but to me everything is purely a gamble/educated guess... With a full time job there is no time to open my own business which would probably fail anyway based on statistics.. Maybe I should just buy a buddha statue and pray heaps.. Please help me!!!!




Develop a longterm trend following system (for equities) with an expectancy that it returns 20%p.a.
Validate it, test it well, then trade it.
Start with $10k, then add $5k per year.
If you can stick with it long enough, 30 years later, $9.5mil.

51 is still young-ish.

http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm


----------



## Temjin (13 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> totally agree re saving , compounding and investing wisely is the path to true wealth
> 
> just picking bones really




Yep, and take advantage of leveraging and understand how to actually use it safety! There is no way to make "massive" wealth if you don't use them. Either other people's money or time. 

lol and no, i don't qualify for the 5 million net worth group. 

Now if I was that rich, I would be investing in a number of uncorrelated managed futures that could generate impressive return/risk ratio with good track records and risk management strategies. (and possibly my own one too) 

Alternative investments all the way!


----------



## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

Temjin said:


> Yep, and take advantage of leveraging and understand how to actually use it safety! There is no way to make "massive" wealth if you don't use them. Either other people's money or time.
> 
> lol and no, i don't qualify for the 5 million net worth group.
> 
> ...





 has noticed one thing over time m8 

people with money dont tend to tell others how much they got 

blessem

no offense GG you may be a special one


----------



## tech/a (13 March 2009)

> I would be investing in a number of uncorrelated managed futures that could generate impressive return/risk ratio with good track records and risk management strategies. (and possibly my own one too)





Personally I dont care what the investment is---*If I cant control it then I wont be part of it.*

I dont want anyone rolling over or becoming a statistic if they get caught in the rolling over of others.

*I really cant stress this enough.*


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> has noticed one thing over time m8
> people with money dont tend to tell others how much they got
> blessem
> no offense GG you may be a special one




Also noticed how some seem to be in awe, perhaps hoping a little stardust will brush off on them ?

I had a client once who owned streets of factories and half the industrial property in Geelong.

When the septic tanks backed up he would get a ladder and climb down in there and fix it himself, as mean as cat ****, money never did him any good.

His life's enjoyment was gouging his tenants for more money.


----------



## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> His life's enjoyment was gouging his tenants for more money.






LOL blessim !


----------



## Prospector (13 March 2009)

If I had net worth of $5million I wouldn't be here either!


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## nunthewiser (13 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> If I had net worth of $5million I wouldn't be here either!




 why not? ........ lonely at the top


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> If I had net worth of $5million I wouldn't be here either!




You know there was a time when $5M was a lot of money, now days, your house and a bit of super and .........well you still shop at Safeway for bargains, thats if you can fit the Bentley into those tiny car spaces designed for poor people's old bombs.


----------



## Temjin (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Personally I dont care what the investment is---*If I cant control it then I wont be part of it.*
> 
> I dont want anyone rolling over or becoming a statistic if they get caught in the rolling over of others.
> 
> *I really cant stress this enough.*




I certainly understand where you are coming from. 

My question would be, how much "control" do one really need to manage their investments? 

There are certainly many things that one cannot control in just about ANY type of investments you can think of. 

As for managed futures, what are the differences between investing in others and investing in your own trading system? 

Yes, with your own, you could control your own strategies, your risk management, the software you use (including the company supporting it), the computer equipment/network you choose, the brokers, the markets being traded and even your own health. But any of these could subject to failure, and no one could guarantee their trading systems would be totally infallible. Those risks need to be spreaded out in my opinion. 

For the managed futures, at the very least I could control how much I wish to invest in these managed futures accounts and also request the managers to halt trading my account if its equity falls under a pre-determined level.  

Personally, I view the benefits of diversification through UNCORRELATED investment vehicles outweights the "some" of the loss in their control. 

I certainly would not be investing my entire net worth in my own trading systems as well as other managed futures ones. 

Obviously, I'm influenced from Nassim Taleb's theories. Nothing is ever certain in life. 

But that's just me.


----------



## tech/a (13 March 2009)

In 30 yrs what will 5 mill be worth in real terms?


----------



## Beej (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I had a client once who owned streets of factories and half the industrial property in Geelong.
> 
> When the septic tanks backed up he would get a ladder and climb down in there and fix it himself, as mean as cat ****, money never did him any good.
> 
> His life's enjoyment was gouging his tenants for more money.




Sounds just like a certain Simpson cartoon character! 

Beej


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Beej said:


> Sounds just like a certain Simpson cartoon character!
> 
> Beej




Yes I've been known to get quite frisky at rent review time


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

I think gg has nicked off, this thread has been hijacked by poor people


----------



## Nyden (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> You know there was a time when $5M was a lot of money, now days, your house and a bit of super and .........well you still shop at Safeway for bargains, thats if you can fit the Bentley into those tiny car spaces designed for poor people's old bombs.




How can you say that 5m isn't a lot of money? That's madness. If I had 5 million, I'd retire right now - and I'm only 22! Even at 5% interest, that's $250,000 a year! I'm sure amounts as large as that would receive special interest rates too, perhaps something more like 6%.

Goodness, spend only 80k a year, and let the rest compound, stick it in shares, whatever. Heck, by the time you hit the older years, who cares if you're digging into the actual capital and not the income from it? It's not as though the money will do any good upon death :


----------



## Pairs Trader (13 March 2009)

same strategy as always: long strong stock / short weak stock
make big dough
rinse and repeat


----------



## nizar (13 March 2009)

Temjin said:


> I certainly understand where you are coming from.
> 
> My question would be, how much "control" do one really need to manage their investments?
> 
> ...





Temjin.
Long time, hope your well.

Just to comment on your above statements.
Well you yourself could design UNCORRELATED strategies as well could you not?

At least then you know when your systems are not working and when they are likely to fall apart because you know the mechanics and the intricate details behind each strategy.

Also, do those managed futures funds tell investors how much leverage they take?

And besides, most of those funds that have good track records of producing true Alpha are closed to new investors anyway.

And then you have to pay the fees...

Im with tech on this one.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> In 30 yrs what will 5 mill be worth in real terms?




Not much if doddering around in the garden somewhere.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> How can you say that 5m isn't a lot of money? That's madness. If I had 5 million, I'd retire right now - and I'm only 22! Even at 5% interest, that's $250,000 a year! I'm sure amounts as large as that would receive special interest rates too, perhaps something more like 6%.
> 
> Goodness, spend only 80k a year, and let the rest compound, stick it in shares, whatever. Heck, by the time you hit the older years, who cares if you're digging into the actual capital and not the income from it? It's not as though the money will do any good upon death :




After a divorce leaves $2,500,000

Buy house $1,500,000 leaves $1,000,000

Bentley - $350,000 - leaves $650,000

$650,000 x 4.2% = $27,300 PA

Less cost for servicing Bentley $27,500 = Zilch


----------



## pilots (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> How can you say that 5m isn't a lot of money? That's madness. If I had 5 million, I'd retire right now - and I'm only 22! Even at 5% interest, that's $250,000 a year! I'm sure amounts as large as that would receive special interest rates too, perhaps something more like 6%.
> 
> Goodness, spend only 80k a year, and let the rest compound, stick it in shares, whatever. Heck, by the time you hit the older years, who cares if you're digging into the actual capital and not the income from it? It's not as though the money will do any good upon death :




 Nyden,  PLEASE! please! tell me how to get from a bank  over 4.5%. Thanks.


----------



## Bushman (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> After a divorce leaves $2,500,000
> 
> Buy house $1,500,000 leaves $1,000,000
> 
> ...




LOL; you forgot to add: 
- leverage house to buy BNB, CNP and MFS shares at 80% LVR. Shares lose 100% of value. 
- House prices in Brighton drops 30%. 

*So now you have no money, an expensive Bentley and negative equity. *

Also a Bentley? You must be Snoop Doggy Dog in disguise! 

Happy days


----------



## Nyden (13 March 2009)

pilots said:


> Nyden,  PLEASE! please! tell me how to get from a bank  over 4.5%. Thanks.




ING is 4.75% at the moment, I believe. Or invest in any banking share yesterday  The key though, is that we're talking about a substantial amount here; an amount I'm quite sure any bank would be willing to throw an extra couple of % at to get.

Burns, it's simple, really.


Don't get married
Buy a smaller house, (afterall - there's no family)
Be happy with an Audi
Enjoy!


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> ING is 4.75% at the moment, I believe. Or invest in any banking share yesterday
> 
> Burns, it's simple, really.
> 
> ...




Prostitutes - $2,000 per week = $100,000 pa
Audi r8 = $300,000
Heroin so the rich people will like you - $500,000
Grog - $150,000

Whats the point of all that money if you cant live in a big wanker house to make all the poor people feel inadequate ?


----------



## Nyden (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Prostitutes - $2,000 per week = $100,000 pa
> Audi r8 = $300,000
> Heroin so the rich people will like you - $500,000
> Grog - $150,000
> ...




$2000 a week? Once a week surely? Unless you're willing to throw in
"GP Checkup, and Antibiotics - $200 a week" :

Just drive by in your fancy little audi burns, and the young things will be throwing themselves at you for free!


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Whats the point of all that money if you cant live in a big wanker house to make all the poor people feel inadequate ?




If you dont understand this you've missed the whole point of money.

At this stage my guess is gg has retired to his "club" in disgust


----------



## glenn_r (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Also noticed how some seem to be in awe, perhaps hoping a little stardust will brush off on them ?
> 
> I had a client once who owned streets of factories and half the industrial property in Geelong.
> 
> ...




This "client's" name wouldn't start with a "C"?

If so the guy I know of that fits your description owns numerous industrial factories all are leased out and has bought other property which he is in the throws of refurbishing albeit very slowly.

The guy is around 60 - 70 years old drives around in a 1980 Toyota corolla siht box, wears 10 year old hard yakka pants and shirt and works 7 days a week on his properties or doing up old cars for resale.

I would guess his net worth would be 7 to 10 mil in property plus x cash in the bank with a monthly income from property rental of say $10 - $15K but to meet him in the street you would think he was a Aussie battler not a multi millionaire.

A few years ago the ATO had the Sheriff auction off some of his land to pay a overdue tax bill, rumour has it his tax records were in a shoe box and he forgot to do a tax return for a few years, he is a very strange fellow in my book.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> $2000 a week? Once a week surely? Unless you're willing to throw in
> "GP Checkup, and Antibiotics - $200 a week" :
> 
> Just drive by in your fancy little audi burns, and the young things will be throwing themselves at you for free!




No .........once a week with a top shelf lady


----------



## Nyden (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you dont understand this you've missed the whole point of money.
> 
> At this stage my guess is gg has retired to his "club" in disgust




I always thought your quote (Mr Burns) was;



> 'What good is money if it can't inspire terror in your fellow man?


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

glenn_r said:


> This "client's" name wouldn't start with a "C"?
> 
> If so the guy I know of that fits your description owns numerous industrial factories all are leased out and has bought other property which he is in the throws of refurbishing albeit very slowly.
> 
> ...




Sounds just like him but this was from the 70's he's probably dead now, one of his tenants probably put the lid on the septic tank while he was down there - which tenant ? could be any of them


----------



## JTLP (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> How can you say that 5m isn't a lot of money? That's madness. If I had 5 million, I'd retire right now - and I'm only 22! Even at 5% interest, that's $250,000 a year! I'm sure amounts as large as that would receive special interest rates too, perhaps something more like 6%.
> 
> Goodness, spend only 80k a year, and let the rest compound, stick it in shares, whatever. Heck, by the time you hit the older years, who cares if you're digging into the actual capital and not the income from it? It's not as though the money will do any good upon death :




You're only 22? I thought you were 50 odd!

A/S/L?

What you doing tonight sweetcheeks? :


----------



## AlterEgo (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> In 30 yrs what will 5 mill be worth in real terms?




Well I'm sure you'd have the 5mil in a bank somewhere, not just under your mattress, so if it's in the bank earning interest roughly equal to the rate of inflation, then it'll be still worth 5mil in todays dollars.


----------



## Temjin (13 March 2009)

nizar said:


> Temjin.
> Long time, hope your well.
> 
> Just to comment on your above statements.
> ...




Hi Nizar, yes, it's been a while.  

But yes, why I couldn't design these UNCORRELATED strategies myself instead? 

My question is then, why I shouldn't outsource them? While Van Tharp say everyone should design a system based on strategies that suits them, why only restrict yourself to be invested in only those strategies?

I have a preference for purely mechanical systems as you would know, but do not want to trade a discretionary system based on EWs, fib numbers, etc, whatever. There is also a "physical" limitation in which I could develop and maintain a number of uncorrelated trading strategies. 

However, that does not mean I don't want to "invest" in them. As long as it has an edge, then there is potential for profit. 

In my opinion, it is much better to invest a number of different traders who could utilise strategies that differ from each other and be invested in EVEN MORE different markets. It's just a simple diversification strategy. Putting all my capital into my multi-strategies trading system maintained by one single person (MYSELF) on a single hardware/network connection (maybe with redundancy) with a single broker is not what I called "safe" investing. 

If someone could do the same using a different strategy and have made money consistently, why not invest into them? 



			
				nizar said:
			
		

> Also, do those managed futures funds tell investors how much leverage they take?




I can almost assure you that those with a good track record would fully understand the concept of position sizing and good risk management that you have learn so far. They wouldn't have lasted THAT long if they were risking 5 or even 10% per trade. Certain managed future "managers" have posted PDS of their funds that explains what kind of trading and risk management strategies they use. Some of them can be quite eye-opening. 



			
				nizar said:
			
		

> And besides, most of those funds that have good track records of producing true Alpha are closed to new investors anyway.




Well, not if you look real hard enough. It's not a matter of being closed to new investors, it's the SIZE of the minimum opening account that is the problem. It makes diversification amoung many different funds an extremely difficult task. 



			
				nizar said:
			
		

> And then you have to pay the fees...
> 
> Im with tech on this one.




Well, that's the price to pay for real professional and effective diversification.

If Tech/A or Nick were to offer people to open an account for them to trade for the standard 2/25 fee, would you do it? Do you feel they understand position sizing / leveraging enough to do the job properly? And do you think their trading strategies have an edge and that they have the ability to keep that edge as market changes? I'm sure both of them have the confident to do that, and I would think so as well and I would certainly consider investing in them if there is such an opportunity. 

The difficulty is in identifying the right managers.  

And note that I avoid those who sell trading systems at www.collective2.com. I'm not recommending them at all.

Sorry, a bit off topic here. hehe


----------



## AlterEgo (13 March 2009)

Nyden said:


> How can you say that 5m isn't a lot of money? That's madness. If I had 5 million, I'd retire right now - and I'm only 22! Even at 5% interest, that's $250,000 a year! I'm sure amounts as large as that would receive special interest rates too, perhaps something more like 6%.
> 
> Goodness, spend only 80k a year, and let the rest compound, stick it in shares, whatever. Heck, by the time you hit the older years, who cares if you're digging into the actual capital and not the income from it? It's not as though the money will do any good upon death :




I agree. I'd retire tomorrow if I had 5mil. You could live a very comfortable life just living off the interest. I can't understand why anyone would need more than 5mil. Sure, a mansion and a Ferrari and a huge yacht might be nice to have, but you don't need those extravagant things to have an enjoyable life. Personally, if I had 10's of millions, I'd keep what I need and donate the rest to some worthy cause.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Personally, if I had 10's of millions, I'd keep what I need and donate the rest to some worthy cause.




I'll PM you my address just in case
Gerry Harvey reckons over $10m is a waste, but he hasnt been to Europe in a while i guess,.

Saw this yacht in Debrovnic and Monte Carlo thought it was nice then found out is is $220,000 US per week to hire.

So gg could only last 6 months then have to swim home.


----------



## tech/a (13 March 2009)

Threads turned to the usual standard.
I will join GG.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Threads turned to the usual standard.
> I will join GG.




I knew it , crawler


----------



## nizar (13 March 2009)

Temjin said:


> Well, that's the price to pay for real professional and effective diversification.
> 
> If Tech/A or Nick were to offer people to open an account for them to trade for the standard 2/25 fee, would you do it? Do you feel they understand position sizing / leveraging enough to do the job properly? And do you think their trading strategies have an edge and that they have the ability to keep that edge as market changes? I'm sure both of them have the confident to do that, and I would think so as well and I would certainly consider investing in them if there is such an opportunity.
> 
> The difficulty is in identifying the right managers.




Yeh I just couldn't do it.
Even if Jim Simons or Steve Cohen came to my house to beg me to give them my money and they would even minus the fees. I wouldn't do it.

If I wanted somebody else to manage my money then i wouldn't have bothered with the years of study I've put into trading.
I was into managed funds once, gave them up in 2005 because I wanted to give trading a go for myself.

Why?
Because nobody wants to make my money grow more than me. So I decided I am going to study and learn, and become my own "expert" in this area.
(Long way to go obviously).

You've dedicated a significant part of your live (several years) to learn how to trade. So now do you plan to seriously tell me that the whole point of that was to get to the several multiples of the $250k min. required to enter into these funds?

If I had several uncorrelated strategies, yes i would run them all myself, or If i can't (physical limitation), then I would outsource experts to get programmed into an autotrader, or I would hire others to work for me and carry out the execution. Either way, I stay in charge. 

As for multiple internet connections, brokers, UPS etc, i agree its a good idea especially if trading scalping/fast strategies, etc.

Horses for courses


----------



## nizar (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So gg could only last 6 months then have to swim home.




Classic call


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (13 March 2009)

Sneaks into the rich thread, smokes one of Garpals cubans and quaffs his Chivas Regal like water.

When sufficiently drunk starts mentioning Slow stock accumulation and 80% of 80% with a 5% buffer with high dividend stability ratio's, and opportunistic buying of residential property assets in a 70/30 ratio.

Drinks some more and wonders where the strippers are?

Drinks some more and remembers he's married and passes out on the leather couch.



Dukey said:


> I've got a better idea than this elitist bullcarp GG.
> 
> why don't you with all your nouse and savvy dollar-smarts, do something useful and start an 'investment for poor people' thread where you can impart a small measure of your valuable knowledge and gloriousness onto the whining plebs?? tell them how to become a millionaire like you.




But I AM DUKEY - aren't you paying attention?

Sir O


----------



## theasxgorilla (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> By then you'll be 61
> see what that figure is.
> 
> Its the power of constant saving and compounding.
> You'll be amazed.




Then index for inflation at 3-4%, you'll also be amazed, in a different kind of way


----------



## Macquack (13 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Saw this yacht in Debrovnic and Monte Carlo thought it was nice then found out is is $220,000 US per week to hire.
> 
> So gg could only last 6 months then have to swim home.




Bit small, GG might prefer Frank Lowy's little runabout.


----------



## knocker (13 March 2009)

Well how about get a decent education to begin with. Get a high paying job, work hard at it and live frugally. In ten years you will have plenty of cash to splash on cafes, overseas properties etc etc. No brainer really. Most of all don't listen or heed the advice of others, because they are essentially full of it. Good luck.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (13 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Threads turned to the usual standard.
> I will join GG.




I'll stay with it and hope tech does too. I have a directory just with his posts in it. A golden collection of advice. Hang in mate.



MrBurns said:


> I think gg has nicked off, this thread has been hijacked by poor people




there are 2 types of poor people, those with hope, vigour and enterprise, and the whingers and no hopers.. The former may have little means and humble jobs, but see their kids and grandkids and their enterprise pays off.



Dukey said:


> I've got a better idea than this elitist bullcarp GG.
> 
> why don't you with all your nouse and savvy dollar-smarts, do something useful and start an 'investment for poor people' thread where you can impart a small measure of your valuable knowledge and gloriousness onto the whining plebs?? tell them how to become a millionaire like you.
> 
> ...




tech/a has a thread on this, why don't you bugger off to some centrelink whingers thread. This is a stock thread for chrissake, for people who want to take risks and make money. I have no idea why you are here.

For what its worth I'm 50% property 35% cash and 15% stocks

gg


----------



## johnnyg (13 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'll stay with it and hope tech does too. I have a directory just with his posts in it. A golden collection of advice. Hang in mate.
> gg




Being only young ~ 22 I myself have started taking notes of tech's thoughts/quotes ect, as you put it GG, theres golden advice in there.


----------



## nizar (13 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A golden collection of advice.




Couldnt agree more.
Look at his early stuff as well, eg. how to be in the 3%, etc, etc.


----------



## Temjin (13 March 2009)

nizar said:


> Yeh I just couldn't do it.
> Even if Jim Simons or Steve Cohen came to my house to beg me to give them my money and they would even minus the fees. I wouldn't do it.
> 
> If I wanted somebody else to manage my money then i wouldn't have bothered with the years of study I've put into trading.
> ...




I think you misunderstood the differences between a *retail managed fund *and a *managed "future" fund*. 

The managed funds that you see being sold to mums and dads investors are almost always "long" only and rarely, if at all, do any trading. Their principle is based on buy and hold, then charge a fee for doing so. A passive index ETF could have done the job better. Avoid them like a plague. 

Managed futures are more commonly classified as "hedge funds / alternative investments" and are usually operated by professional traders registered as CTA (Commodity Trader Advisors) through the US CFTC. (some of them anyway) They are basically like professional traders (who we all want to be) but am willing to trade other people's account for a fee. 

When you read books like Market Wizards, etc and they mentioned of those legendary traders who have generated respectable consistent profits over many years for their clients, I can assure you some of them are CTAs who operate their own managed future funds, but in a closed manner. They employ EXACTLY the same risk management and probably more sophisticated strategies, as well as accumulating years of experiences in trading psyhology, as we would want to dedicate our live into learning. (or a part of our live, at least for me) 



> You've dedicated a significant part of your live (several years) to learn how to trade. So now do you plan to seriously tell me that the whole point of that was to get to the several multiples of the $250k min. required to enter into these funds?




Yes, I do not view trading my own account as the ONLY "investment vehicle" I would ever have in my whole life. That is simply too risky and I prefer a diversified portfolio including real estate properties and starting a business one day. Future tradings is one of my main vehicle in accumulating the necessary capital to move on to the next goal. Of course, that does not mean I would stop trading altogether, I would almost certainly to continue to do so indefinitely. 



			
				nizar said:
			
		

> If I had several uncorrelated strategies, yes i would run them all myself, or If i can't (physical limitation), then I would outsource experts to get programmed into an autotrader, or I would hire others to work for me and carry out the execution. Either way, I stay in charge.




There are ALOT of discretionary trading strategies that have an edge but simply cannot be programmed into an autotrader or be traded by someone else. Accumulated trading experiences and having the ability to adapt to the market and maintaining an edge is one of the major advantage of these highly successful discretionary traders.

If they have generated consistent profits over time, why not hire them to trade some of your capital? It's just like creating more trading strategies and markets for your "trading account" investment. You would usually have a lot of control of your trading account and can simply tell your broker to halt trading at any time, as well as deposit or withdraw money out at any time. (of course, there will be certain limitations like minimum account balance and if the deposit is too large, he/she may not take it) 

I would recommend that you don't easily discredit managed futures out there. Go and do some research on these two words. Research on the CTAs, read their PDS, understand their strategies and you will find out some of them are simply on a "different" level as we are. 

The funny thing is, I found out about managed futures because Nick Radge had posted a link on it almost a year + ago. I have not seen him mentioned about it again, or anyone else except probably me. It's one powerful investment vehicle if you know how to utilise it. 

I probably revealed too much anyway. hahah 

At the end of the day, it's really up to you if you want to invest in them or not. It doesn't hurt for you to spend a few hours looking up those info on the net though.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Ok gg , those with over $5m have the same basic dilemma as those with less cash. no debt and cash is good but what do you do with it?

In the bank enough different banks to stay under the $1M guarantee for starters.

Then WAIT, there's nothing else you can do that doesn't involve unacceptable risk, end of story, when property tanks go in buy with no debt in good locations, never buy a lease and your future will be assured.

And so I advise.


----------



## Datsun Disguise (13 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Where to from here?
> 
> Stock accumulation. REITs or stay in cash?
> 
> gg




Kinda surprised about the wrap that property is getting here - aren't any of you guys (ie future centrelink whingers once our great recession is done) sophisticated investors? How about having a look at quality companies that can't raise funding, pull together your $, do a sweet heart deal at bargain basement prices with the boards and maybe save a company from the wall - not to mention delay a few poor buggars from getting down to centrelink before they have to?

GG / Burns - you guys sound just right for some of those ABC learning centres that no-one wants to buy....

harsh, yes but fair. no?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ok gg , those with over $5m have the same basic dilemma as those with less cash. no debt and cash is good but what do you do with it?
> 
> In the bank enough different banks to stay under the $1M guarantee for starters.
> 
> ...




Burnsie, sorry to be a bit pedantic but I think you mean acceptable risk not unacceptable, otherwise I wouldn't take the risk.

gg


----------



## kincella (14 March 2009)

(QUOTE)
tech/a has a thread on this, why don't you bugger off to some centrelink whingers thread. This is a stock thread for chrissake, for people who want to take risks and make money. I have no idea why you are here.

For what its worth I'm 50% property 35% cash and 15% stocks

gg[/QUOTE]

Excellent point.

A bit like the property forums, with very successful property investors. It becomes bombarded by all the scaredy cats, they all have their horror forecasts, gleaned from all over the world.  Theory is great, but I fear their crystal balls are made of plastic and should be thrown away.


----------



## kincella (14 March 2009)

Reasons to be cheerful  (for the rich...or even some of the fringe dwellers)

LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault is not concerned by the downturn. Rather, he's excited about the opportunities it presents.

Bernard Arnault is confident the LVMH group, which has a stake in 60 luxury companies, will emerge strongly from the recession. Pic: Reuters
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal's WSJ Magazine in Paris, France's richest man and one of the most influential in the world of luxury, compares the current crisis with others that have not ended as badly as the pessimests originally feared.

“In 1998, the Russian economy was on the brink, and then it rebounded. It happened quite quickly. India too””I have no doubt it will rebound,” he tells WSJ.

*And the region he expects will bounce back the quickest? Australia's.*
“China is the most interesting part of the world for me now. I go there two or three times a year, most recently in Dalian, where we’ve just opened in a new mall. There are so many people who are getting to the stage where they want to consume, who want to be part of a club.

“China is feeling the effects of the crisis, but less than the US. And when you consider that Chinese tourists are now buying as much as Japanese tourists, when there were virtually none just 10 years ago, I’m not so worried.

“Every time there’s been a crisis, we’ve gained market share. We’re about to enter a market of buyers over the next six to eight months. There will be opportunities, and we will be looking at them.”

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25175007


----------



## noirua (14 March 2009)

The richer you get the more difficult it is to buy and sell. 
These fellers lost a mountain of cash - apart from Mayor Bloomberg:  http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25175182-36375,00.html


----------



## Plan_Trader (14 March 2009)

Temjin,

Be extremely careful of CTA's and managed futures funds. I spent a lot of time researching this 5 years ago - was very excited at first. There is a large amount of survivorship bias amongst these guys. 
I had selected a group of these to watch - at the time they had reasonably long track records. I have had the URL's in my favorites for all of those years and your post prompted me to look at the performance. Over half have now gone. Most of the others have had 3 or 4 dreadful years - tough to stick with. The last year or two has been great for most. I guess you only needed to catch a few of the large currency, commodity and index trends(short), to look good.

A similar thing has happened with off the shelf trading systems.

I did invest in one of the Man products 5 years ago(only 30k) and this has been pretty good - but your funds are locked away for 5 years.

So, I am with tech about control. Most horror stories are about loss of control.

My opinion only.


----------



## psychic (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.
> 
> ...




This is really poor form, this thread should be closed down, its so un-Australian


----------



## tech/a (14 March 2009)

psychic said:


> This is really poor form, this thread should be closed down, its so un-Australian





*Yeh your right.*
It seems that its the Australian way to despise wealth.
Its Australian to blame everyone and everything else for ones circumstance.
Its Australian to hold an attitude of Employees V Management.
Its Australian to get all you can from that offered even if your not entilitled to it.

Australia has gone from the " Lucky country " so named from those who BUILT this country and have BECOME Australians and proudly so.

To a County which is Apathetic,whinging and whining and suffering from a bad case of Tall poppy syndrome.As is evidenced in this thread alone.
One I'm not currently real proud of!

*Yeh your right.*


----------



## Uncle Festivus (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.
> 
> ...





psychic said:


> This is really poor form, this thread should be closed down, its so un-Australian




Let's read that again - 


> Let us have a thread for those of us a net worth more than 5 million.




Yes, shall we?

The 'Rich Peoples Thread'???

Or perhaps, 'An ever so humble collection of pontificating rich people'? Like we want or need any more of that!

So we are now dictating thread inclusion based on net worth? Why do you even think it neccessary for gratuitous wealth advertising? Don't you already drive a 'look at me I'm rich' car? 

Why not just stick to contributing to the forums like the rest of us, who don't need the psychological re-inforcement of proclaiming our wealth?

Perhaps that's what motivates the rich - the need to continually prove themselves to others because of low self esteem?

_I said - people, they just want to take you_
_People, they just want to make you_
_People, they just want to break you dow-ow-own_
_Want to take you down, yes they know-ow how_
_They're gonna get you_

_I said-a beau-tiful people_
_You know they're going out tonight to get their Bombay rocks off_
_Beau-tiful people_
_They've got a Kerouac conditon, got a cocaine cough_
_Beau-tiful people_
_Studio fifty-four is the only place to dance_
_Beau-tiful people_
_You know the garden's full of furniture, the house is full of plants_
Australian Crawl -* Beautiful People*


----------



## MRC & Co (14 March 2009)

Couldn't agree more Festivus.

What a joke.  What can you invest in GG, that others here can't?

If your going to create a thread about funds you can employ for only a select few with the capital base to do so, then so be it.

But your investment options are about the same as anybody else here, regardless of wealth.

And I like the way you name it 'rich peoples thread', 5mil is not exactly rich by some standards.


----------



## mazzatelli1000 (14 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> And I like the way you name it 'rich peoples thread', 5mil is not exactly rich by some standards.




Love it!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Yeh your right.*
> It seems that its the Australian way to despise wealth.
> Its Australian to blame everyone and everything else for ones circumstance.
> Its Australian to hold an attitude of Employees V Management.
> ...






MRC & Co said:


> Couldn't agree more Festivus.
> 
> What a joke.  What can you invest in GG, that others here can't?
> 
> ...




thanks tech.

The point in disclosing my assets was to bring some reality to a forum which has been given more over to conning the ATO and Centrelink into getting as much asya can for nothing than in working hard, taking risks and investing in this country.

MRC , you have the same investment options as everyone else so instead of whingeing and rolling your eyes, jeez I hate eyerollers in posts, give us some of your pearls.

gg


----------



## Trevor_S (14 March 2009)

pilots said:


> Nyden,  PLEASE! please! tell me how to get from a bank  over 4.5%. Thanks.




4.75% from now until 31 July (I have cash there now)

http://www.ingdirect.com.au/savings/savings_products/savings_maximiser.htm

That aside, if your happy to stay in cash, AMP Retail Bonds might be of interest.  The margin on the bank rate is 4.25% at the moment (ie bank bill rate + margin), and the bonds are redeemed in 10 years at a face value of $100, as long as AMP doesn't go down the gurguler and it looks like they mean to redeem them in 5 years, because they pay a penalty if they don't (an increase in the margin).  No Government guarantee of course .. ahh the 'ol risk/reward juggle


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> 4.75% from now until 31 July (I have cash there now)
> 
> http://www.ingdirect.com.au/savings/savings_products/savings_maximiser.htm
> 
> That aside, if your happy to stay in cash, AMP Retail Bonds might be of interest.  The margin on the bank rate is 4.25% at the moment (ie bank bill rate + margin), and the bonds are redeemed in 10 years at a face value of $100, as long as AMP doesn't go down the gurguler and it looks like they mean to redeem them in 5 years, because they pay a penalty if they don't (an increase in the margin).  No Government guarantee of course .. ahh the 'ol risk/reward juggle




I looked at these. They are unsecured and if you look at my posts in AMP its a good one to buy low and sell in the good times. Consider the shares rather than the bonds. Correct me if I'm wrong, they are are unsecured, so if AMP goes , so do they, and AMP have "gone" before.

gg


----------



## Lounge Lizard (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Yeh your right.*
> It seems that its the Australian way to despise wealth.
> Its Australian to blame everyone and everything else for ones circumstance.
> Its Australian to hold an attitude of Employees V Management.
> ...




Um, this post souinds like a whinge to me.  Playing the victim, "poor little me, people don't like or appreciate me because I've got money."  Get over it.  In my experience Aussies don't give a toss how rich you are they only care whether you're a decent bloke or not.

For example do a survey of who thinks Lleyton Hewitt is a tosser, likely most people.  Tall poppy synddrome, you say?  Now do a survey to see who likes Pat Rafter, most would probably say yes.  Both rich, both successful, yet a dramatic difference of public opinion.  Aussies don't hate wealth, they hate arrogance.  

Australia was originally called the "Lucky Country" not as a term of endearment but due to the fact that we sit on our arses and reap the rewards of our abundant land with little effort involved compared to other industrialised nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Country).


----------



## Prospector (14 March 2009)

Lounge Lizard said:


> Um, this post souinds like a whinge to me.  Playing the victim, "poor little me, people don't like or appreciate me because I've got money."  Get over it.  In my experience Aussies don't give a toss how rich you are they only care whether you're a decent bloke or not.
> 
> For example do a survey of who thinks Lleyton Hewitt is a tosser, likely most people.  Tall poppy synddrome, you say?  Now do a survey to see who likes Pat Rafter, most would probably say yes.  Both rich, both successful, yet a dramatic difference of public opinion.  Aussies don't hate wealth, they hate arrogance.




Yes, exactly!


----------



## Trevor_S (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Consider the shares rather than the bonds. Correct me if I'm wrong,





The interest rate is fixed to the bank rate + margin, that doesn't happen with the share.  
They can't arbitrarily cut or suspend the dividend (here's looking at you Anglo !), if you are after surety of income this is a risk in owning the share.
If you are convinced the GFC will last years, interest rates will be down for years, this provides a nice buffer to low bank deposit rates.  On the flip side, if hyper inflation kicks in, rates will rocket and so will the bonds. as it's tied to the bank rate.
You get your $100 back, the guarantee comes from AMP



Garpal Gumnut said:


> they are are unsecured,



They are bonds, so of course they are not Government guaranteed, eventually the bank deposit guarantee will be lifted as well, what are you going to do then ?  They are "secured" by AMP.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> so if AMP goes , so do they, and AMP have "gone" before.




No they haven't gone under before, when they demutualsied, they made some cocky investment decisions and paid for their hubris, I bought into the share back then at $4-ish from memory.  The ASX is replete with companies that have done the same, from BHP, RIO, OZ Minerals, through WBC, AMP, NAB, etc etc etc but have survived.... You sound old enough to remember back to WBC doing the same thing in the 90's, With Kerry Packer on the board, circling like a shark     The margin you are offered is the price of that uncertainty, up to you if the risk is worth it.

I wouldn't put all my cash in them but I think 10 - 20% is "worth" the risk, if you have to liquidate, you can sell them on the market if you want but they will suffer the same vagaries as shares.


----------



## tech/a (14 March 2009)

> Why not just stick to contributing to the forums like the rest of us, who don't need the psychological re-inforcement of proclaiming our wealth?




I don't think that is or ever was his intention.(proclaiming wealth).
Wealth is a consequence of travelling a road less travelled.I certainly encourage all here to search out that road and get on it. Those that have travelled and are a long way down it can contribute to this forum in a way that the majority cant.



> Perhaps that's what motivates the rich - the need to continually prove themselves to others because of low self esteem?




*Continually*
Is a perception.
Have you ever thought that there are people who actually get a kick out of enriching the lives of others because they can. Even faceless Avatars.

But its pretty clear to me that most are happy to travel off the bitumen.
Do so by all means but don't knock those who choose a different road.

*Story.*
I was 24 invested all I had in my first business and owed a small fortune to a bank for the purchase of my business premises.
It was Pissing with rain and I was in a Large shed with a concrete floor desk chair and a phone---thats it all I could afford.
Waiting for the phone to ring--it had onlt rang twice in 3 days.

I was depressed and questioning my stupidity in going into business.

*Phone a friend*
At the time my best mate had a large Furniture retailing business with 3 branches turning over a total of $7 million a year.
To me mind blowing numbers (1979).
I called him thinking I was the only person on the planet he needed to talk to.

Geoff Listened to my 20 minute rant on how stupid I was and how hopeless my situation was,I managed to spit out no less than 20 raesons why failure was imminent and assured.

Eventually I stopped and all I heard was silence.
Hello you there?

Yeh--You finished??

Err yeh!

I then heard these words down the phone so load I had to take the phone away from my ear.

*DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!*

Click.

Ive never ever needed to make a call like that again.
If I'm ever in a similar situation I hear those words LOUD and clear!!

If I can motivate one person to search out and find that road less trodden I am indeed a happy man.


----------



## Dukey (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'll stay with it and hope tech does too. I have a directory just with his posts in it. A golden collection of advice. Hang in mate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Uncle Festivus said:


> Let's read that again -
> 
> 
> Yes, shall we?
> ...




Ahhh GG - since you asked me so nicely to stick around - I shall .

Geez I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this for what it is. Congrats on owning a heart to some!!

*Tall Poppy* has nothing to do with it....  I don't care how much money you have.  It should be called 'self important armhole' syndrome - because thats what aussies get pissed off about.
.. It's what kind of person you are that is important. Sadly _some_ '$$ rich folk' just never geddit. 

The bit that riled me to respond originally was the 'snivelling down the nose' attitude that we sometimes see from so called 'rich folks' who seem to think that a few $$ in the bank somehow makes them special, or better and deserving of 'protection' from the stench of 'poorer folk' - when it is often (not always) the case that that have got where they are by treading on anyone in their way and treating everyone as an opportunity to maximise profits.

I'm not saying all $$ rich folks have done it,  but the attitude on which this thread was started and built is a pretty big warning signal to me.

plus words such as ...

' harden up' ; or 'bugger off to some centrelink whingers thread'...and the like.... let me guess - thats what you say to your elderly demented mum or your sibling with mental illness  is it?

There are many ways to define 'rich'. Anyone who thinks its just about dollars is nuts IMO.

....E 
(as rich as I am, still proudly stenching up the thread! )

PS - Tech - I do appreciate that you and some others have put alot of time into passing on good advice without the expressing attitude I've described above. Not aiming at you or them.


----------



## MR. (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I don't think that is or ever was his intention.(proclaiming wealth).
> Wealth is a consequence of travelling a road less travelled.I certainly encourage all here to search out that road and get on it. Those that have travelled and are a long way down it can contribute to this forum in a way that the majority cant.




So I wonder, would that then include one who simply just holds cash? "The Entrepreneur of Cash" Ha Ha Ha. 
Does hardly seem like a business decision!



> Geoff Listened to my 20 minute rant on how stupid I was and how hopeless my situation was,I managed to spit out no less than 20 raesons why failure was imminent and assured.
> 
> Eventually I stopped and all I heard was silence.
> Hello you there?
> ...




I've read that somewhere before!


I believe without means of a *good *reliable income from your business activities, the riskier decisions are so much harder to make.....


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Burnsie, sorry to be a bit pedantic but I think you mean acceptable risk not unacceptable, otherwise I wouldn't take the risk.
> 
> gg






> Then WAIT, there's nothing else you can do that doesn't involve unacceptable risk




Think you got it wrong there gg, what I said is there is unacceptable risk involved in doing anything but wait.


----------



## tech/a (14 March 2009)

> I've read that somewhere before!




Geoff is that you?


----------



## babka (14 March 2009)

People who are rich, materially and spiritually, usually have no need to go public. This thread is a meaningless, worthless, trivial claptrap.


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

babka said:


> People who are rich, materially and spiritually, usually have no need to go public. This thread is a meaningless, worthless, trivial claptrap.




So ?


----------



## nunthewiser (14 March 2009)

babka said:


> People who are rich, materially and spiritually, usually have no need to go public. This thread is a meaningless, worthless, trivial claptrap.




so was that post darl


----------



## Stan 101 (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!*




Tech, isn't it a liberating feeling when that penny drops. You finally "get it." I've had quite a few of those moments in the last 10 years. A few of them of posted on here in the past.

One thing I do still need to reconcile is my position in society. I don't want for anything any more. I live a relatively meagre existence. I don't want the big house. I still rent because I like to move on a whim and I like change. Most of my outgoings are on a new motorcycle each year and o/s trips twice a year.

I struggle to find like minded people. I need to be talking about property or shares to keep me motivated so I don't fall back to that person who had huge personal debt and floated through life without a financial clue. The problem is many people, even friends, resent it when talking about property purchases and the like.
Good people I know look in awe at the guy down the road who just bought an Audi R8 and has a great pool in their yard. They think and talk of the Audi owner as a godlike figure. People can be so set in their ways and their current position in life and think "this is my lot!" I just shake my head. I end up feeling guilty for knowing if I could be bothered owning it, I could.

Personally owning a car like that is a burden to me. I'd feel obliged to clean it often, get another garage to park it, then feel guilty about driving not driving it.

I suppose what I'm saying is, the entrepreneurial seed inside everyone will no necessarily sprout in youth and may not sprout at all. If it does sprout, in my experience anyways, it needs constant attention to continue to blossom. 


cheers,


----------



## babka (14 March 2009)

Nun, this is exactly the reason, why I had posted into this thread.LOL


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

Anyway .

After all that, 

Interest rates are v low and banks are going broke and Richie Rich Rudd has guaranteed some deposits, so deposits in an interest bearing account may be a good way to pass time.

I'd be interested to see what the fixed rate for margin loans will be in June as I'm a bit of a contrarian and some oilers look cheap as do some financial institutions and materials.

If margin lending was bad in a high interest, high p/e environment I'm thinking that the opposite may be true come June.

Housing prices are slow about here to fall, so apart from the Stormers who may be saved by CBA, I can't see house prices falling significantly. Maybe I'm wrong.

Commercial property is on hold and apartments are at a standstill, maybe some bargains there , but who is going to tenant them.

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

gg


----------



## nunthewiser (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Commercial property is on hold and apartments are at a standstill, maybe some bargains there , but who is going to tenant them.
> 
> I'd appreciate any thoughts.
> 
> gg





I personally am looking at the unfinished numerous inner city melbourne apartments that are going up all over the joint ....... think MAYBE a few may be nabbed rather cheaply once completion is over and it comes time to recoup some of there exposure 

could be wrong but this sin lovin nun will be waiting with my checkbook come the hopeful firesale

inner city living usually a high intrest area for prospective tenants if priced competitivly


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> I personally am looking at the unfinished numerous inner city melbourne apartments that are going up all over the joint ....... think MAYBE a few may be nabbed rather cheaply once completion is over and it comes time to recoup some of there exposure
> 
> could be wrong but this sin lovin nun will be waiting with my checkbook come the hopeful firesale
> 
> inner city living usually a high intrest area for prospective tenants if priced competitivly




Its the same here, many unfinished but they don't seem distressed enough to drop the price.

gg


----------



## MRC & Co (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> MRC , you have the same investment options as everyone else so instead of whingeing and rolling your eyes, jeez I hate eyerollers in posts, give us some of your pearls.
> 
> gg




Sorry, don't have 5mil yet, so my pearls may as well be potatoes from centrelink as per the original post.  

But I like the spin doctor approach.  No eyeroll here, so I'll just add a


----------



## SM Junkie (14 March 2009)

kirtdog said:


> All I can say is how the F%$^ do I end up with 5 mil at a decent age to spend it




I'd love to hear more examples from those that have made it, just how they did it? Like Tech/A's "Do something about it" comment, this is what sets people apart.

Learning from my own family has been an essential part of my journey. My father has gone from a person that didn't even go to school to a self made millionaire.

So here are some of the wisdoms I've learnt from my parents.


It's their attitude towards wealth creations, it's the *How can I do this *rather than the reasons why you can't.  
If it doesn't make you money then it's not worth having.  The toys of wealth cost you money and you don't need to impress anyone.
The passion for what you do.
If you don't know how, learn how.
Its the journey and not the destination, (this is how you achieve satisfaction of where you are right now). 
Think creatively and surround yourself with people who know more than you.
That family is unmeasurable wealth. 
No need to be attached to the wealth, if you lose it all tomorrow, family will still be there and that is what really counts.
There is probably so much more I could add, but I'll stop the dribble here.
So how have others got to where they are today?


----------



## nunthewiser (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Its the same here, many unfinished but they don't seem distressed enough to drop the price.
> 
> gg




Early days yet m8 in my OWN personal opinion .the house of debt only just beginning to play out and think a few of these debt ridden property developers can only live off the "buy off the plan "gang for so long ....... 

could be wrong


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

SM Junkie said:


> I'd love to hear more examples from those that have made it, just how they did it? Like Tech/A's "Do something about it" comment, this is what sets people apart.
> 
> Learning from my own family has been an essential part of my journey. My father has gone from a person that didn't even go to school to a self made millionaire.
> 
> ...




Thanks mate, 

Getting this type of post as well as the other positive ones was the main reason for starting this thread.

I'm sick and tired of 7 Habits for Godbothering Yanks and other types of books/advice inimical to the Australian spirit. 

Thanks again



nunthewiser said:


> Early days yet m8 in my OWN personal opinion .the house of debt only just beginning to play out and think a few of these debt ridden property developers can only live off the "buy off the plan "gang for so long .......
> 
> could be wrong




No, don't think you are wrong.

gg


----------



## kincella (14 March 2009)

maybe we need a 'rich peoples ' website/forum.....and no talk of centrelink payments ever..... joking
spent most of my life helping others....offer reasonable advice and assistance ....to help them make their dreams come true
then entered the world of  blogging.....do the same there and you  are held up to ridicule....
its not easy being green....bit like a bull in a china shop....
so come on chaps.....some need to be de-greened ...or enlightened in other words.
ps....chapel st still busy....someone had better tell gen y  and x there is a recession going on


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

I suspect the Rudd bribe will not be extended beyond June, I think he's hookedwinked enough young people into the housing bubble, the unit owners in the city wil be happy to talk by September, or perhaps you'll be talking to their receivers.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2009)

SM Junkie said:


> [*]If it doesn't make you money then it's not worth having.




I find that a bit sad.   My aim in having enough money was primarily to provide a sense of security, but that achieved, to spend enough to make life enjoyable.

I simply don't get the acquisition of more and more wealth for its own sake.
Actually think it becomes an obsession/addiction with some people.

And if you can only define yourself by the level of your wealth, and conversely if you define others by their lack of wealth,  then that's also pretty sad.


----------



## Prospector (14 March 2009)

Maybe its the area GG but I am having no problems finding tenants for an apartment; they are queuing up to lease it.  We are on the lookout for new office premises (Adelaide) and I am not sure commercial leases are faring as well, there are some real bargains out there.


----------



## kincella (14 March 2009)

the saying ,,,,*'dreams are a promise you make to yourself'*, and no one likes broken promises...not even you....

I totally changed my life....I studied, then got the position in my chosen profession, worked for a top firm for 5 years, then chucked it in and started my own business from scratch,   worked 16 hours a day for 7 days, for about 3 years , until it was up and running......

then I stopped and looked around....took a 3 months holiday...and 
then I went out and partied, did everything I had missed out on doing , when I had been slogging away at the work and study....only this time I could afford to do almost anything I wanted to do......

if you want to make your dreams and goals come true....you need to make a list, of what you need to do, to achieve those goals.....and step by step list of all the things that make up each step on the ladder... each has a time frame, a beginning date and end date.

focus firmly on the goals....create a picture in your mind , of how you will look feel and act when you have achieved the goals....ie looking into the future
having a good mentor will help
and do not procrastinate....start today...no excuses...work on the plan everyday....
you will find, when you focus on exactly what you do want, you will not waste time, nor be side tracked by all the other time wasting things...that life and friends have to offer....
I hope this helps
ps been having a ball ever since...life is good, and the freedom....love it


----------



## SM Junkie (14 March 2009)

Julia said:


> I find that a bit sad..




Not at all. We live an extremely blessed lifestyle and go without nothing.  But our luxuries are creatively linked together, it's the relationship between our assets and our businesses.  

For example, the family trust own the property, the business pays rent to the trust for its use and this allows us to live expense free.

Or

Holidays where possible get linked to a business expense.  So when I visit my partners family, I'll undertake a property inspection or research new opportunities, etc.

I guess we don't value an extravagent display of wealth. I don't see the need to have an expensive car or live in a very large house. 



Julia said:


> I simply don't get the acquisition of more and more wealth for its own sake.




Because I don't have any material needs (probably because I live in the bush) and very little expenses, then I enjoy watching and growing my own personal wealth.  It keeps me busy and I get a real sense of achievement from it.


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

kincella said:


> the saying ,,,,*'dreams are a promise you make to yourself'*, and no one likes broken promises...not even you....
> 
> I totally changed my life....I studied, then got the position in my chosen profession, worked for a top firm for 5 years, then chucked it in and started my own business from scratch,   worked 16 hours a day for 7 days, for about 3 years , until it was up and running......
> 
> ...





Great post, I've emailed it to my sons, thanks kincella


----------



## kincella (14 March 2009)

Julia agree...
I am very generous to my family and friends....I only need xxx amount of dollars for myself, and the rest is to help the others....
I lost my younger brother a year ago from kidney disease....I would have given all the money in the world to have him alive today....I tried, we all tried to save him...at the end of the day...the hospital was probably the most dangerous place for him to be...he ended up with numerous complications...

but, at least I had the money to help him out...to pay for the specialist care, the air fares, and accommodation....and a host of other things to make his life easier...and for lots of treats along the way...

I will be there for the rest of the family when they need help...

in the meantime, I have to keep earning money, to fund my retirement, and to fund the extended family, when they need help
cheers


----------



## Macquack (14 March 2009)

SM Junkie said:


> For example, the family trust own the property, the business pays rent to the trust for its use and this allows us to live expense free.




How do you treat that transaction for tax purposes?


----------



## Julia (14 March 2009)

kincella said:


> Julia agree...
> I am very generous to my family and friends....I only need xxx amount of dollars for myself, and the rest is to help the others....
> I lost my younger brother a year ago from kidney disease....I would have given all the money in the world to have him alive today....I tried, we all tried to save him...at the end of the day...the hospital was probably the most dangerous place for him to be...he ended up with numerous complications...



Kincella, I'm very sorry about your brother.   But you've just given us a great example of the constructive use of money.  This is just so different from the whole "money for its own sake" philosophy.


----------



## SM Junkie (14 March 2009)

Macquack said:


> How do you treat that transaction for tax purposes?




All a business expense.  The business is located on the property we live at, so the rent it pays includes all outgoings including electricity, phones, vehicles, fuel, etc. Its all a bit complicated for my limited understanding, but guess that is why our accountant gets the job of working it all out.


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## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

I lost my best friend a year ago and a month later my brother , both to cancer.

Money to me is security and to give my kids a leg up, the world isn't very nice to those that don't have enough.


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## kincella (14 March 2009)

Ok..here is just one example...lets say an associate...middle aged, had a hobby farm...good job in town...3 teenage children....he dreamt of having a larger farm..not a hobby farm, but an income generator that could provide the children with a future, and establish the whole family as farmers...with a good income
so we  went through the steps of how to achieve his goals....first he needed a bigger property, then he would need to stock it with breeding cattle,,,and the list went on..each step had a time frame....
he had been dabbling in shares, had 1/4 mill invested, had a margin loan etc and was not happy with it...he never had the time he needed to spend on the investment portfolio...(it was obviously not  his dream)
so I suggested he sell all the shares...amp were 18.00 that day, and sell down the other shares within 3 months...( he said that advice tripled his profit on his portfolio)

the difference was remarkable...he came back in 3 months...he had found the exact land he was looking for (we had a specific area/location within half hour of the home) I had suggested he look for the land, then approach the owners to see if they would sell.....low and behold an old farmer responded, had decided he would retire..and they agreed on a price.....

this man said....once he had  drawn up the list to achieve his dream, his focus was solely on the steps required....he had more time for the important things in life...did not have to worry about the sharemarket (he had been enticed into it..but really a farmer at heart) and very excited about the future for the farm....his teenage children became more interested in their farm etc....so he was now living his dream.....
8 months later after buying the land, he called an agent to value it.....it was triple the value......ahh the makings of a wealthy man.....he had changed from being a struggler...to now being a very confident person...knew exactly where he was going....
he no longer dithered here and there...wondering how to improve his life...
it was a lovely transformation....
oh and when we planned the land acquisition...it  had to be north of the city...so that in the future, if the children did not want to continue farming....it would be in a good location for subdivision.....

its not far from the new satelite city, new freeways etc....
so we looked ahead for 20 years...


----------



## MRC & Co (14 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I lost my best friend a year ago and a month later my brother , both to cancer.
> 
> Money to me is security and to give my kids a leg up, the world isn't very nice to those that don't have enough.




Sorry to hear Mr Burns, I am in the same boat to some extent, lost a lot of close people at a very young age.

I see money as a means to an ends, nothing more, nothing less.  If you want a fast pace lifestyle, then you need more.  I live pretty modestly and am happy doing so (hey, it's free debating over forums ), so I don't need much.  If I make a packet trading, it's something I will happily give away to those in need.  

As for the original topic, I posted a thread about OM-IP220 fund I think.  Capital guarantee and fantastic returns by Man, IMVHO, probably the best hedge fund in the world, lot's done through ever evolving quant, but they also have discretionary traders.  Returns far superceed 99% of other funds I have seen, and in times like these, capital guarantees are of paramount importance.  Gives me exactly what I want:  1)  High, consistent performance, and; 2) Capital guarantee which increases based on the current value of your 'share' in the fund. 

Cheerio


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Sorry to hear Mr Burns, I am in the same boat to some extent, lost a lot of close people at a very young age.
> 
> I see money as a means to an ends, nothing more, nothing less.  If you want a fast pace lifestyle, then you need more.  I live pretty modestly and am happy doing so (hey, it's free debating over forums ), so I don't need much.  If I make a packet trading, it's something I will happily give away to those in need.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that, everything that lives must die, we tend to forget that, especially when it comes early.

Capital guaranteed ? Is that for real or just untill they lose the money ?


----------



## Temjin (14 March 2009)

Plan_Trader said:


> Temjin,
> 
> Be extremely careful of CTA's and managed futures funds. I spent a lot of time researching this 5 years ago - was very excited at first. There is a large amount of survivorship bias amongst these guys.




I very much agree with you on the survivorship bias. Far lot more has failed than one would think. I have personally seen a few of them myself as well.



> I had selected a group of these to watch - at the time they had reasonably long track records. I have had the URL's in my favorites for all of those years and your post prompted me to look at the performance. Over half have now gone. Most of the others have had 3 or 4 dreadful years - tough to stick with. The last year or two has been great for most. I guess you only needed to catch a few of the large currency, commodity and index trends(short), to look good.




This is exactly why trading your own system is just as risky if the failure rate is so high among these CTAs. What makes one think he/she can do a much better job than other people? Because you are in "complete" control? Or because you are very confident of your skills and luck? 

Nassim Taleb had explained this very well. Those who makes tons of money from trading / investing is simply because they got lucky, at least most of the time anyway. 

I would not bet my life goal on the path to wealth on my luck with trading skills alone. 



> A similar thing has happened with off the shelf trading systems.




I would totally ignore off-the-shelf trading systems. If the system has an edge, why sell it? 



> I did invest in one of the Man products 5 years ago(only 30k) and this has been pretty good - but your funds are locked away for 5 years.




This is because the hedge funds from Man Products are designed for retailers (mums & dads) investors who are "brainwashed" to think only LONG TERM. (and recommend a buy and hold strategy) Managed futures are like I said, individually managed accounts where you are in complete control of your money and broker. You can decide when to halt trading and/or deposit/withdraw at any time. And yes, I understand the risk of the CTA who might got drunk and decide to put a position size that would easily wipe out your account. (why would they want to do that anyway?) But anyway, I tend to avoid those retail hedge funds with a lock in period. 



> So, I am with tech about control. Most horror stories are about loss of control.
> 
> My opinion only.




I agree that it is extremely important to be in complete control of your own investment. But to what degree? It's like owning a business, are you going to micro-manage just about absolute everything? Can you outsource some of them to others who are just as competent?

There are still things one cannot control, risks they cannot avoid, black swan events that just happens because it happens. Being in "complete" control would not make you immune to that.


----------



## tech/a (14 March 2009)

There are some tremendous gems in the latest posts.

Have you noticed how the theme can be broken down to *"Choices"*

We have the ability to make choices.

You'll find yourself through life in a position where the choice you make will take life in an amazing direction,or the wrong choice (Which is usually no choice at all) sees a life or that aspect of life ,when reflected upon as a Missed Opportunity.



> There are still things one cannot control, risks they cannot avoid, black swan events that just happens because it happens. Being in "complete" control would not make you immune to that.




So true.
But to make a conscious decision to avoid where humanly possible I have found to be the best option so far.
I remember looking at the Urban Construct Development here in Port Adelaide and mentioning to my wife how "They've got a lot of work to do to convince me this is Adelaide's Docklands"
I invested elsewhere.



> I am not sure commercial leases are faring as well, there are some real bargains out there.




Supply and Demand.



> I'd be interested to see what the fixed rate for margin loans will be in June as I'm a bit of a contrarian and some oilers look cheap as do some financial institutions and materials.




I find this a strange statement---worrying about a % or so in interest when perceived capital growth way exceeds quibbling over the small stuff.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I find this a strange statement---worrying about a % or so in interest when perceived capital growth way exceeds quibbling over the small stuff.




re margin rates in june
a reasonable criticism tech.
but I'll still be watching them as I prefer opm to me own, and if op are giving it away I'll take it.

gg


----------



## grace (14 March 2009)

$5 million can be quickly lost if not looked after.  I have seen many I know lose that and more in a 10 year period.  I think the secret is knowing when to get out, and when to move.  Emotional attachment is the killer when things are going belly up.  Just don't go down with the ship if it starts to spring a leak. 

I think what motivates me is to give my kids a headstart.   I have the money to spend on myself, but don't.  My children think we are broke, which couldn't be further from the truth.  I am trying to teach them lifelong skills about saving from a very early age.  I show them trading charts and so on.  They are only primary school.  Actually, when I bring the odd one up they say "mum, you should have sold there".  Yes, they were right.  Some excellent posts here too by the way!


----------



## michael_selway (14 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am totally pissed off reading on ASF about punters on Centrelink and Sickness Benefits discussing Richie Rich Rudd's handouts and other minor matters.
> 
> May I start a thread for those of us of means.
> 
> ...




hehe do you think you can make thsi list one day?

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/106712/World's-Billionaires-2009



> World's Billionaires 2009
> by Luisa Kroll, Matthew Miller, and Tatiana Serafin
> Wednesday, March 11, 2009
> provided by
> ...




thx

MS


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## nulla nulla (14 March 2009)

$5 Million plus, opps..... sorry, stumbled into the wrong room.


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## nunthewiser (14 March 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> $5 Million plus, opps..... sorry, stumbled into the wrong room.




thats ok nulla ...your priceless


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## Julia (14 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Have you noticed how the theme can be broken down to *"Choices"*
> 
> We have the ability to make choices.



I agree.  One of my favourite reminders is "we are where we are as a result of the choices we have made".

But let's not forget that sometimes stuff just gets in the way:  marriages break down, people get sick, have accidents, can't go on working.  

That's why I rather dislike the wholesale condemnation of people who aren't well off.  Sure, much of this is due to lack of ambition and application.  But we just can't know what some people are trying to overcome.

The people who really impress me aren't those who have more than others, but those who are prepared to share what they have with others who have a need.


----------



## nizar (14 March 2009)

Great posts guys, especially kincella.
Keep them coming.


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## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

I was once told this by a wise person in my past = 

*If you're happy with what you've got you're a wealthy person.*

Think about it.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I was once told this by a wise person in my past =
> 
> *If you're happy with what you've got you're a wealthy person.*
> 
> Think about it.



Completely agree.   This goes back to my earlier comment about what seems to be an addiction in some people to needing to accumulate more and more money.  They will never have enough.


----------



## MrBurns (14 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Completely agree.   This goes back to my earlier comment about what seems to be an addiction in some people to needing to accumulate more and more money.  They will never have enough.




Some people think that money will make them a better person, very disappointed when they find it doesn't.

Money does give you freedom but you can see by gg's opening this thread, with $5M plus you still have problems.

Debt is a killer though, if your income is on the line, no worse feeling, been there done that.

Anyway what do you do with cash these days ? For me it's stick it in the bank and buy property when the time's right, at least it will always be there, you can touch it feel it, live in it or work in it, unlike shares it never disappears regardless of it's worth at any particular time.


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## tech/a (15 March 2009)

> those who are prepared to share what they have with others who have a need.




*Julia.*
There is a great void between need and *expectation.*

We have worked with Street kids for 15 yrs my wife longer.
I have a rule.
You help yourself and I will help you.
You stop helping yourself and so will I.

The balance is way toward the latter.

Its a personal rule I carry everywhere.


----------



## Trevor_S (15 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Completely agree.   This goes back to my earlier comment about what seems to be an addiction in some people to needing to accumulate more and more money.  They will never have enough.




For some people, wealth is the consequence of doing what they enjoy. eg Buffett, Gates, Jobs, Lowy all spring to mind in this regard.  They have no need of work, Buffet is 78 or so, lived in the same house for 50 years and says he goes to work every day with a smile on his face, loving what he is doing.  The money he and Gates have generated does more good then all of us in here combined could ever do.

Inspired by the likes of them, I have ideas of setting up a charitable fund in t he future with my assets and after we die ensuring the income is used for worthwhile causes.


----------



## Prospector (15 March 2009)

When I think of where my parents were, and even where my brother is now, we are very rich.  But nowhere in the $5mill net league.  But we're working on it!


----------



## MRC & Co (15 March 2009)

Temjin said:


> Nassim Taleb had explained this very well. Those who makes tons of money from trading / investing is simply because they got lucky, at least most of the time anyway.
> 
> This is because the hedge funds from Man Products are designed for retailers (mums & dads) investors who are "brainwashed" to think only LONG TERM. (and recommend a buy and hold strategy)




Completely disagree with these statements.

There is definately an element of luck in trading, you have to get good markets etc, but great traders are consistent as hell.  

As far as Man, some products have to be invested for a given period of time, but they are NOT long-term buy and hold strategies.  They actively trade, last quarter mine was long USD, short Yen, long gold, short oil and short equities I believe.  Made 17% in a quarter and capital backed by one of the 4 pillars of the OZ banking system, who are backed by the RBA (for a small extra fee which is well worth it IMO), is as safe as any investment I can think of with returns most funds can only dream of (heck, funds brag about being down less than other funds these days).


----------



## Julia (15 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Julia.*
> There is a great void between need and *expectation.*
> 
> We have worked with Street kids for 15 yrs my wife longer.
> ...



Tech, I couldn't agree more.  Sadly, the 'expectation' seems to be growing.

Sometimes this is fed by some charities.  The pastor of a church which has a community welfare arm related recently how - in an attempt to stem the 'welfare mentality' - they attempted to engage clients in a partnership rather than just dole out the handouts.
They requested people who had received assistance on three occasions over a month long period to undertake budgeting training before getting any more assistance.   The clients just stopped turning up, rejecting the requirement to learn how to budget.

So what did the agency do?   Instead of sticking with their principle, they went back to just meekly handing out the vouchers.


----------



## nizar (15 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> (heck, funds brag about being down less than other funds these days).




True story.
I was looking at a property fund run by APN group.
Had a geez at their latest monthly report.

For the month of February, they were down 14.41%, compared to -14.92% for the index (whatever it was), then they claimed it was "an outperformance of 0.51%".
Im sure their investors would have pleased to hear that.

Then I called my dad and brother and we all had a laugh together.


----------



## kirtdog (15 March 2009)

its tracking back a bit but thanks for every1s reply the other day... Personally devastated right now because the realisation ill most likely have to work another 30 years unless im very lucky.. would love to be sippin pina coladas on my own cruise ship but yeah earliest age i can see it happening is between 40 and 50 depending how investments go.. really dont wanna get a home loan to buy property and dont know any alternatives so ill prob just end up in a bit of debt.. and as for shares ill stick to mainly blue chip just gonna wait for all the financial turmoil to piss off.. and currency trading i need to do a lot more study on that, poker machine and punting no deal lol.. anyways happy trading and have fun bein millionaires..


----------



## Naked shorts (15 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> unlike shares it never disappears regardless of it's worth at any particular time.



 Property can be destroyed just the same as a company can be liquidated. Have you really be brainwashed into thinking "safety is in bricks and mortar"? 

If you are in property as a hyperinflation hedge (I don't know if your worried about governments printing heaps of money), remember that bank reserve ratios can simply be increased (Gold bugs also need to take this into consideration).


----------



## MrBurns (15 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Property can be destroyed just the same as a company can be liquidated. Have you really be brainwashed into thinking "safety is in bricks and mortar"?
> 
> If you are in property as a hyperinflation hedge (I don't know if your worried about governments printing heaps of money), remember that bank reserve ratios can simply be increased (Gold bugs also need to take this into consideration).




If there's no debt, or very little, on property it can still be used for it's original purpose regardless of it's value, shares can make your money actually disappear with nothing to show for it, ask anyone with managed Super.

So there is safety in bricks and mortar but only if it's not geared.

I was addressing the problem of what to do with cash, forget borrowings.


----------



## Naked shorts (15 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If there's no debt, or very little, on property it can still be used for it's original purpose regardless of it's value, shares can make your money actually disappear with nothing to show for it, ask anyone with managed Super.
> 
> So there is safety in bricks and mortar but only if it's not geared.
> 
> I was addressing the problem of what to do with cash, forget borrowings.




Property can be burnt to the ground, fall down in landslides, collapse in earth quakes, become targets of terrorist attacks etc. You can also get insurance for property.

Companies can go bankrupt, but you can get insurance for them as well. CDS's (Credit default swaps) are the financial instruments that will allow you to protect against companies going bust.


----------



## MrBurns (15 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Property can be burnt to the ground, fall down in landslides, collapse in earth quakes, become targets of terrorist attacks etc. You can also get insurance for property.
> 
> Companies can go bankrupt, but you can get insurance for them as well. CDS's (Credit default swaps) are the financial instruments that will allow you to protect against companies going bust.




Ok so can you get CDS's for an entire share portfolio ?

If so whats the cost ?

and how secure is the insurer, usually ?


----------



## Naked shorts (15 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ok so can you get CDS's for an entire share portfolio ?
> 
> If so whats the cost ?
> 
> and how secure is the insurer, usually ?




My CDS knowledge is limited,  but yes you can get CDS's for basically anything, councils, governments, companies, bonds, CMOs, CLOs, CDOs etc. Anything that can default would have a cds for it.

Yes, there is a risk of your counter-party failing to pay up. Think AIG and Lehman, they were involved in the CDS market in a big way. As for buying and selling them, its not easy, it is my understanding that you need to have an account with an investment bank, or you need to be running your own investment company/hedge fund to participate in the market. If you are wielding $10mm you can setup and account with GS but im not sure what is the minimum account balance for the other shops (However, I would love to be enlightened).

Check out wiki and check out:
http://www.markit.com/information/home.html
They provide a bunch of services to people in the CDS market.

CDS's are a good topic for this thread as you need to have a bit of money to be involved in the market.

p.s. No i dont have a net worth over 5mm. Im young and extremely hungry


----------



## MrBurns (15 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> CDS's are a good topic for this thread as you need to have a bit of money to be involved in the market.
> 
> p.s. No i dont have a net worth over 5mm. Im young and extremely hungry




Thanks for that, seems easier to insure a property.

I'm a little poorer since the divorce but still doing ok, would love to get that money back.

I hope you get what you want, this advice is worthwhile.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=408823&postcount=142


----------



## tech/a (15 March 2009)

If anything causes armegeddon in the Financial Industry it is likely to be CDO's

If your interested educate yourself on these and CLO's CDO's and CMO's
here----worth viewing the entire set.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=CDS+,CLO,CDO's&aq=f


----------



## Naked shorts (15 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks for that, seems easier to insure a property.
> 
> I'm a little poorer since the divorce but still doing ok, would love to get that money back.
> 
> ...




If you are into REITs then the CDS market can still be useful, it will allow you to see what other people think of the trusts and will help you make a better informed decision before investing. Think of the CDS market as a replacement of all the incompetent and corrupt credit rating agencies.

As to the goal setting advice, I have already done that, and its difficult dealing with the crab bucket's response. Undercapitilsed? Yes, but I'm extremely happy that I live in a world where proprietary trading shops take in people like me 

A very difficult journey, and I'm trying to enjoy it (I succeed at times).


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

My intention in starting this thread was not to denigrate people with little assets  or money.

Some of my best friends are poor ( thats a truism and a joke, not for the New Class to take this post west)

Folk nowadays look to Richie Rich Rudd to get them out of previous mischief.

We need to take responsibility for our actions.

I have lost ****loads by not following my own posted advice, but I've always had a stoploss, on stocks and my portfolio and my assets.

So lets have this thread as a positive for us all to profit.

And yes money is not everything, and there are other things in life , like the green frog by my window.

So lighten up you New Class and lets get going on the recovery.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (16 March 2009)

If you're not driving a holden, eating sausages in bread and drinking beer like a madman you're treated with disdain and suspicion in AU.


----------



## Prospector (16 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you're not driving a holden, eating sausages in bread and drinking beer like a madman you're treated with disdain and suspicion in AU.




Does two out of three count?  I drive a holden, love sangers in bread, and beer, well, a corona is nice but that is it!


----------



## Solly (16 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you're not driving a holden, eating sausages in bread and drinking beer like a madman you're treated with disdain and suspicion in AU.




I don't drive a Holden, eat meat or drink beer...... Lucky I didn't fall for buying the first Commodore "trap"..


----------



## Julia (16 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you're not driving a holden, eating sausages in bread and drinking beer like a madman you're treated with disdain and suspicion in AU.



Damn!   I don't do any of these.  Utter failure, it seems.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

I drive a Commodore and a Bentley, and I'm tempted at times to "key" Rollers.

gg


----------



## Solly (16 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I drive a Commodore and a Bentley, and I'm tempted at times to "key" Rollers.
> 
> gg




I hope you don't have a dislike to IS250's ?


----------



## Trembling Hand (16 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us have a thread for those of us a net worth more than 5 million.




You know its always been a rule of sorts that people prove their claims of great trading or nick off talking about it. Either post them in real time or provide *broker statements*. rightly so too as there is weight given to those making claims of a grand nature.

You would think that rule should apply here.

Personally I'm waiting for the 5 mil a year income thread to start before I add anything. :


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You know its always been a rule of sorts that people prove their claims of great trading or nick off talking about it. Either post them in real time or provide *broker statements*. rightly so too as there is weight given to those making claims of a grand nature.
> 
> You would think that rule should apply here.
> 
> Personally I'm waiting for the 5 mil a year income thread to start before I add anything. :




This is getting a bit poisonal.

OK TH, believe what you wish.

btw, I dont have 5 mil anymore , its down to 4,823,524.

Such is life.

You'r a puppy.

gg


----------



## nunthewiser (16 March 2009)

LOL 

this is even funnier than the time nanna got her boob caught in the wringer


----------



## Solly (16 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You know its always been a rule of sorts that people prove their claims of great trading or nick off talking about it. Either post them in real time or provide *broker statements*. rightly so too as there is weight given to those making claims of a grand nature.
> 
> You would think that rule should apply here.
> 
> Personally I'm waiting for the 5 mil a year income thread to start before I add anything. :




TH I think gg posted in his thread that most of his wealth is in property.....
Net worth of 5 mill isn't really much where I come from, it's a couple of houses and/or a commercial bldg, a bit of cash, a bundle of shares and some franked dividends.

Now 5 mill per annum....that's another story....
(BTW Michael D'Ascenzo can vouch I don't qualify for the $5 Mill club... well technically anyway )


----------



## Trembling Hand (16 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is getting a bit poisonal.
> 
> OK TH, believe what you wish.
> 
> ...




Boy the "lucky" rich fold easily. Nothin of value here, time to move on

:run:


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> LOL
> 
> this is even funnier than the time nanna got her boob caught in the wringer




lol 

whats at the end of a trembling hand.

gg


----------



## Uncle Festivus (16 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is getting a bit poisonal.
> 
> OK TH, believe what you wish.
> 
> ...




Any of that in frozen REIT's?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> Any of that in frozen REIT's?




no

gg


----------



## Solly (16 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> lol
> 
> whats at the end of a trembling hand.
> 
> gg





A very nervous patient in the Dentist's chair..?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 March 2009)

Solly said:


> I hope you don't have a dislike to IS250's ?




I would never key such a nice motor.

gg


----------



## sjx (17 March 2009)

I'm 19, drive an Audi, study finance, work at a bank.. made most of my $$ in the paladin frenzy,

do i make the cut? lol, interesting thread. 

Congrats GG.


edit: noticed that you were looking at SUN gg. I purchased a bundle at 4.50 or something, looking good from here in my opinion. also holding MOS..


----------



## nizar (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Personally I'm waiting for the 5 mil a year income thread to start before I add anything. :




So true lol.
Is $5mil even rich these days?



> Gordon Gekko: I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. *Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. *Or nothing.


----------



## knocker (17 March 2009)

Hey guys hows things in aus lol not too bright hey. Oh well, make good money here back in UK sitting on my ass. Enjoy your recession lol


----------



## Prospector (17 March 2009)

I dont get Bentleys.


----------



## tech/a (17 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> I dont get Bentleys.





Hell Id take GG,s for a spin.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> LOL
> 
> this is even funnier than the time nanna got her boob caught in the wringer




Just how old ARE you Nun .......lol


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

knocker said:


> Hey guys hows things in aus lol not too bright hey. Oh well, make good money here back in UK sitting on my ass. Enjoy your recession lol




Enjoying it a lot more then you are your depression, Your snot eating PM doesnt give me the impression he can do much about it either.

Love London let me know when $2M AU can buy anything over there besides a bus ticket.............


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is getting a bit poisonal.
> 
> OK TH, believe what you wish.
> 
> ...




Sorry gg but you dont qualify for your own thread, start another one for those who are going backwards, i'm one of them, eating capital at present as the system is geared to make everone poor, even those with cash are penalised under the Rudd Recession (dont ya love politics?)


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Hell Id take GG,s for a spin.




Is that the Aston Martin Pimp Drug Dealer model ?


----------



## Prospector (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Hell Id take GG,s for a spin.




Nah, its the grill, I dont like the grill - reminds me of a mouth with badly fitting dentures.  And that model looks like it has been squashed.   Like the cabin has been pushed down into the base and it oozes out at the sides.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> Nah, its the grill, I dont like the grill - reminds me of a mouth with badly fitting dentures.  And that model looks like it has been squashed.   Like the cabin has been pushed down into the base and it oozes out at the sides.




Thats exactly right you must have seen the manufacturing process.........


----------



## Trevor_S (17 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> btw, I dont have 5 mil anymore , its down to 4,823,524.




Seeing as the $5Mil Net Wealth level is important to you (ah la the thread title) should have perhaps tipped some into GPT a few days ago (like I did), for an unrealised ^44% CG so far.  Of course, today it will probably crash 50% and you would be further down the gurguler  

Or, just do what the property "investors" do and tack a few more % of unrealised CG onto your property portfolio, no one can prove you wrong that way (well, not until you sell !) and bang, back over $5 Mil 

Edit ^52%, I see another 5.5% near the market opening, as I posted this thread.


----------



## James Austin (17 March 2009)

i've met people with barely any money, 
yet they had found a way to be happy/content in their life

i've known rich people who were very unhappy, some even taking their life when the chips were down.

happiness can increase with wealth, but its fragile, and futile

far better to make your cash, yet be content independent of it.


_PS
$4.8mill is a droplet in the ocean gg, 
laughable really, that you would be so impressed by yourself that u start a thread to announce it._


----------



## tech/a (17 March 2009)

Get a grip you guys.

Your acting like yobbos.

I'll repeat 
I dont think it was/is GG's intention to boast.Certainly havent seen any evidence of boasting.

He like I and a few others are sick of the whinging and whinning of those who think they are hard done by.

You reckon its a breeze employing people and facing the prospect of laying people off,people who you feel are giving their best and find themselves caught up in the crossfire of Government stupidity?

There are people here who can add a perspective beyond Joe Average.
Go read HotCopper if you want to live like a loser all your life.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

I agree - I think gg made a serious attempt to throw of the wealth cringe and actually talk about stuff that those with a few bucks can actually do to improve or maintain their position, and why the hell not ? 

No ones saying $5m makes someone better then the next man but those with it have unique problems as well as those saving for a new box of toothpicks.


----------



## James Austin (17 March 2009)

back-peddling tech,

i cant think of any good reason to start a thread announcing my total wealth so that i can talk about something else


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I agree - I think gg made a serious attempt to throw of the wealth cringe and actually talk about stuff that those with a few bucks can actually do to improve or maintain their position, and why the hell not ?




LOL there is not much value in this thread.

You have the usual banter and car pics and talk of "keying" rolls.

Where is the improving stuff?


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL there is not much value in this thread.
> 
> You have the usual banter and car pics and talk of "keying" rolls.
> 
> Where is the improving stuff?




There was a bit of good stuff in there , see my posts

Keep it in the bank untill property tanks then go in, simple.


----------



## glenn_r (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL there is not much value in this thread.
> 
> You have the usual banter and car pics and talk of "keying" rolls.
> 
> Where is the improving stuff?




Generally a lot of threads on this forum lately are going the same way...


----------



## nizar (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL there is not much value in this thread.




Tend to disagree.
Have a look at the posts by Tech, kincella, bushman, Temjin. Plenty of value therein.


----------



## sjx (17 March 2009)

What's wrong with hearings ones success with all the doom and gloom? 

Lets start a thread with every word either being.. recession, global financial crisis, credit crunch, interest rates.. did i say recession? that sounds uplifting


----------



## tech/a (17 March 2009)

> Where is the improving stuff?




Kick it off anytime you like T/H.

Yeh I know you havent qualified.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kick it off anytime you like T/H.
> 
> Yeh I know you havent qualified.




LOL


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kick it off anytime you like T/H.
> 
> Yeh I know you havent qualified.




This is the exact FARKING bullsh!t that makes me question the worth of this thread.

In fact the whole forum.

I'm gone. Leave little men to play their little game's.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

He'll be back


----------



## basilio (17 March 2009)

The post for the $5 million dollar folk.... and how to get there..... and what to do with it.

My . in no real particular order.

- I admire people who have great ideas, make worthwhile products, manage them well and earn a good living

- I have mixed feelings about property investment profits which are too often based on some pretty dodgy developments which don't improve our overall quality of life. (But then many do...)

- Many people make a bucket of money from sxxx. The most obvious (IMHO) could be drug dealers (the illegal and legal varieties) and snake oil salesman (once Masters of the Universe). How much respect should these people be given? Or does wealth have no morals and no conscience?

Obviously can't comment on where anywhere here stands in the picture.

On another note I'm curious that astute business people like GG have the capacity to analyse the world and make profitable business decisions but can still ignore the overwhelming evidence that perhaps all is not that well in the world we have inherited from our parents and will pass on to our children. I suppose that having ones  $5 million could give one the opportunity to last a few years longer in an increasingly dangerous climate.  Just not sure if that will be a good thing...

_______________________________________

_Only when the last tree has been cut down,
The last river run dry
And the last fish eaten
Will we realize we cannot eat money.__
_


----------



## Macquack (17 March 2009)

James Austin said:


> PS
> $4.8mill is a droplet in the ocean gg,
> laughable really, that you would be so impressed by yourself that u start a thread to announce it.




Just remindered me of that rich guy I like to hate - Allan Moss, the former CEO of Macquarie group.

In 2007, Moss earnt more than Garpal Gumnut's entire "fortune" in less than 2 months work (I use the term "work" loosely).


----------



## tech/a (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> This is the exact FARKING bullsh!t that makes me question the worth of this thread.
> 
> In fact the whole forum.
> 
> I'm gone. Leave little men to play their little game's.





Perfect--exactly the response I would expect from a scalper.

As I thought nothing to add.


----------



## MrBurns (17 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Th
> I'm gone. Leave little men to play their little game's.




Oh gee and there I was thinking we were the AU chapter of Mensa

Everyone spits the dummy sometime


----------



## tech/a (17 March 2009)

Basilo

You know it seems to boil down to passion.
Passionate people often become passionate about their lives and those of others.

It rubs off.

Guys like T/H with his super bold up your nose ---*PASSION.*
The Hewitt "Come on'!
The Obama "Yes we can"
The Bob Geldof's
Al Gore's
The guy that comes last in a marathon but still did it.
The Stephen Hawking's of the world who with disabilities that you and I cant even imagine STILL make every minute of every day worth something.

and it costs NOTHING.


----------



## 2BAD4U (17 March 2009)

Unfortunately, when people with "wealth" talk about it they are seen as boasting, when in actual fact it can be the complete opposite.

As an example, when I talk to my family about my property investments, I am sharing with them what I have done / achieved so that they might get something useful out of it.  It was these sorts of conversations that got me started.  So I am trying to share / help, not boasting.

On the other hand, my in-laws are severly jealous of my wife and I and accuse us of being snobs, etc, etc.  So now I don't talk to them about anything to do with money and when they complain of being "poor" I have a little laugh to myself.  It is their ignorance and attitude that keeps them "poor".


----------



## MRC & Co (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Perfect--exactly the response I would expect *from a scalper*.




Here we go again, that insecurity issue with scalpers plays out again.  

Basilio, did you get your name from the great Welter (later turned Middle) boxer?  If so, top stuff!!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 March 2009)

I find trading ranges the most profitable to trade for the long term, for long term value, PMM comes to mind from many years ago, CVN looks good at present for example.

At bottoms as we are at, or approaching, it is worthwhile to look for TR's. 

Easy in and a good stop loss point.

Any ideas?

gg


----------



## grace (17 March 2009)

Nearly everyone I know has net assets of $5mill or more.  I am not trying to be snobby here, they are nice people.  Some of my friends are up to the $50mill now (they are frugal and have done very well over a period of two generations).  I live in a quality farming district.  Farms are expensive to buy.  A farm of $5mill is barely enough living area to feed your family any more I'm afraid.  Most farmers are asset rich and income poor - we have to feed the nation, and get paid  for it.  Farms have been seen as a real estate investment and not as a business of late.

Something has to give....either food goes up, or property prices come down.  I hope the latter, I am in the market to buy a farm.  We sold out at what we hope was the market peak (it is starting to look that way now as the market has become illiquid and recent sales are lower than a year ago).  We can only hope we have made the right move.....if we fall into depression, I will have to lean on my friends for food now.


----------



## nunthewiser (17 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Perfect--exactly the response I would expect from a scalper.
> 
> As I thought nothing to add.




whats scalping got to do with anything ?


----------



## Naked shorts (17 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Yes, there is a risk of your counter-party failing to pay up. Think AIG and Lehman, they were involved in the CDS market in a big way.




Ok so latest CDS news is a central exchange has been decided for the market. So the counter party risk will be similar to the risk on a futures exchange.

I certainly hope my contributions have been of some value to people.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> This is the exact FARKING bullsh!t that makes me question the worth of this thread.
> 
> In fact the whole forum.
> 
> I'm gone. Leave little men to play their little game's.




You will be mist mate.

gg


----------



## nunthewiser (18 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You will be mist mate.
> 
> gg




agree actually 

enjoy TH,s posts regardless of whether he has scalpitus syndrome or whatever the hell that means to anyone


----------



## kingcarmleo (18 March 2009)

GG et al

What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.

Any tips from anyone is greatly appreciated

cheers

king


----------



## Solly (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.
> 
> ...




Here's a handy formula that may be beneficial at your age,

Compound interest is your friend....

FV = PV (1 + i)^N

FV = Future Value
PV = Present Value
i = Interest 
N = Number of Years 


Don't rush, enjoy the journey, only do things you really have a passion for, choose your friends wisely, never get greedy, sometimes less is more, always paddle your own canoe.


----------



## ojm (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips.




A $10,000 loan for a person such as yourself would have a high interest rate. Working part time and at uni, you wouldn't get anywhere near the RBAs rate.

I was in the same situation as yourself, but I didn't mind the high rate (paid the loan off in several months). 

Maybe if you were getting a loan off your parents though, through their mortgage perhaps?


----------



## tech/a (18 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> whats scalping got to do with anything ?




Emotive,exuberant excitable,intense,passionate,all traites I have seen displayed by T/H who scalps----well he says he does.

I've got them as well.


----------



## Ageo (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.
> 
> ...





I was in your shoes yrs ago, ended up borrowin around 90k from my mum over a period of time and lost the lot. Thesedays im a little wiser, so if i had to give a word of advice dont buy into the make money fast idea (be patient and learn ****loads).


----------



## Trevor_S (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom.




Start early and easy, educate yourself like you are doing, read, a lot and often and don't try and "bottom pick" (the market I mean  )

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123696727736421823.html



kingcarmleo said:


> I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips.




First thing to learn is about the margin spread on loans.  The rate you are quoting is the projected cash rate by some economists (a group of people with as much foresight ability as a kindergarten pupil) which will be considerably different to the mortgage rate which will be considerably different to the personal loan rate.

be careful with leveraging, look at the number of people on here that came undone using it (look to the Storm thread for 100's of examples)

Ignore the advice of most people, especially here on the internet   and for some irony, a couple of "wise words" that bear thinking about...



> "I don't read economic forecasts. I don't read the funny papers."
> - Warren Buffett






> "I will tell you how to become rich. Close the doors. Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful."
> - Warren Buffett






> "All intelligent investing is value investing - to acquire more than you are paying for. Investing is where you find a few great companies and then sit on your ass."
> - Charlie Munger





> "Success in investing doesn't correlate with I.Q. once you're above the level of 25. Once you have ordinary intelligence, what you need is the temperament to control the urges that get other people into trouble in investing."
> - Warren Buffett






> "Only buy something that you'd be perfectly happy to hold if the market shut down for 10 years."
> - Warren Buffett






> Our favorite holding period is forever.
> Warren Buffett






> You do things when the opportunities come along. I've had periods in my life when I've had a bundle of ideas come along, and I've had long dry spells. If I get an idea next week, I'll do something. If not, I won't do a damn thing.
> Warren Buffett





Now is an opportunity.  You need to be prepared for opportunities by identifying great companies and having the cash reserves to take advantage.


and as to some pontficating about money being the root of all evil



> "Of the billionaires I have known, money just brings out the basic traits in them. If they were jerks before they had money, they are simply jerks with a billion dollars."
> Warren Buffett





Best of luck to you, I didn't start until I was 20.


----------



## Naked shorts (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.
> 
> ...




Don't listen to Warren Buffet quotes :


Also, pick and choose your friends.


----------



## cuttlefish (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.
> 
> ...





Don't focus on wealth - focus on building your life around doing something you genuinely enjoy, that matches your interests and personality.   If you like being active and dealing with people on a regular basis - find a vocation that involves this,  if you like burying yourself away and creating things do that, if you like plugging away with hard yakka alongside a bunch of similarly minded people then do that, if you like the outdoors try to build a career/lifestyle that involves that,  if you like adventure then build that into your life.    You're going to spend probably 70%+ of your life earning an income - make sure you are doing something you genuinely enjoy and would probably do even if you didn't get paid for it.

You can find wealth through just about any profession/vocation.   Don't feel obliged to take on a profession that is considered a 'well paying' one if it doesn't match your personality.   I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy but unhappy Dr's out there in the world, sitting in windowless little rooms dealing with sick people every day - but for others it will be the most satisfying thing they could do.  

Plenty of people have built wealth through relatively simple activities like building up lawnmowing or cleaning runs and turning them into large businesses, others achieve it through complex means like inventing new technology or writing books/producing films, others through more conventional means like high paying salaried jobs combined with prudent saving and investing.   

The paths are many, make sure the journey you're on is enjoyable because then it matters less whether you reach the destination.


----------



## kincella (18 March 2009)

gfresh...that is absolutley the best advice....did you read my mind...I was going to post something similar...forget about the get rich schemes and trading....something you have very little control over....do something you enjoy and earn your living from doing just that....that way you get to enjoy life, and you can become as wealthy as you like...
oh and strive to be the very best at what you do....striving to be the best, gives you the drive and ammunition, and ambition.....
and wealth is not only about money....its also about friendships, and helping those less fortunate, doing the things you enjoy in your freetime...being creative, building your community.....heaps of things, including mentoring others


----------



## MrBurns (18 March 2009)

Yes follow your passion, everything else will follow.


----------



## kingcarmleo (18 March 2009)

Thank you for all the advice much appreciated, my main source of capital was term deposits and it was going really well at 7.1% interest now its down to 4.25% and is only worth 30$ a month or so, so i tend to save 150$ a week from each pay then wait till i have saved up 500 and invest , which is working well atm. I was thinking of buying a couple of news paper rounds and then hiring someone some kid to do it for me.


----------



## Cartman (18 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> Don't focus on wealth - focus on building your life around doing something you genuinely enjoy, that matches your interests and personality.   If you like being active and dealing with people on a regular basis - find a vocation that involves this,  if you like burying yourself away and creating things do that, if you like plugging away with hard yakka alongside a bunch of similarly minded people then do that, if you like the outdoors try to build a career/lifestyle that involves that,  if you like adventure then build that into your life.    You're going to spend probably 70%+ of your life earning an income - make sure you are doing something you genuinely enjoy and would probably do even if you didn't get paid for it.
> 
> You can find wealth through just about any profession/vocation.   Don't feel obliged to take on a profession that is considered a 'well paying' one if it doesn't match your personality.   I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy but unhappy Dr's out there in the world, sitting in windowless little rooms dealing with sick people every day - but for others it will be the most satisfying thing they could do.
> 
> ...




 ----- ive said it b4 C/F and i have no reservation in saying it again --- (and im not 'peeing' in yr pocket   ) ---- u my friend r someone people should listen to ---------- i suspect u r a little older than most around here ( so am i, but i just act like an idiot to confuse the masses lol --)

i respect yr posts and yr opinion ----- u make statements obviously based on wisdom and knowledge ----- 

just a little 'headswell' for there for ya   Cheers M8 ----


----------



## nunthewiser (18 March 2009)

Cartman;410432 i respect yr posts and yr opinion ----- u make statements obviously based on wisdom and knowledge ----- 

  ----[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> actually agrees with you re squidlips but im not prone to fluffing so will just nod along in agreement


----------



## Cartman (18 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> actually agrees with you re squidlips but im not prone to fluffing so will just nod along in agreement





haha ----- squidlips ---- u r a funny man Nun ----- and totally misunderstood imo ---- im sure C/F will find that amusing as well


----------



## cuttlefish (18 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> haha ----- squidlips ---- u r a funny man Nun ----- and totally misunderstood imo ---- im sure C/F will find that amusing as well




lol - and yeah cheers for the compliments cartman - having trouble walking through doorways now my head's so big.   Unfortunately sometimes experience/wisdom comes from doing the opposite of the right thing.  (i.e. you learn from your mistakes and heck I've learnt a lot ).


----------



## MRC & Co (18 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> The paths are many, *make sure the journey you're on is enjoyable *because then it matters less whether you reach *the destination*.




Perhaps the journey is the destination?


----------



## tech/a (18 March 2009)

Squid lips

Cartman If nothing else I love your humor.
C/F with a mindset like that why arent you a lobster?


----------



## prawn_86 (18 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> lol - and yeah cheers for the compliments cartman - having trouble walking through doorways now my head's so big.   Unfortunately sometimes experience/wisdom comes from doing the opposite of the right thing.  (i.e. you learn from your mistakes and heck I've learnt a lot ).




Saw an interesting anecdote about this:

Person 1 - "How did you become so succesful?"
Person 2 - "Making the right decisons"

1 - "How did you make the right decisons?"
2 - "Wisdom"

1 - "How did you get wisdom?"
2 - "Making the wrong decisons"


----------



## Cartman (18 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Squid lips
> 
> Cartman If nothing else I love your humor.
> C/F with a mindset like that why arent you a lobster?




Haha ---- perhaps we have a new found respect of each others idiosyncrasies Techno ----- happy to admit i'm a bit weird, but my heart is in the right place lol -----  



prawn_86 said:


> Saw an interesting anecdote about this:
> 
> Person 1 - "How did you become so succesful?"
> Person 2 - "Making the right decisons"
> ...




haha  ---- brilliant ----  my wisdom continues to increase every day !!!


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## tasmart (18 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> Don't focus on wealth - focus on building your life around doing something you genuinely enjoy, that matches your interests and personality.   If you like being active and dealing with people on a regular basis - find a vocation that involves this,  if you like burying yourself away and creating things do that, if you like plugging away with hard yakka alongside a bunch of similarly minded people then do that, if you like the outdoors try to build a career/lifestyle that involves that,  if you like adventure then build that into your life.    You're going to spend probably 70%+ of your life earning an income - make sure you are doing something you genuinely enjoy and would probably do even if you didn't get paid for it.
> 
> You can find wealth through just about any profession/vocation.   Don't feel obliged to take on a profession that is considered a 'well paying' one if it doesn't match your personality.   I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy but unhappy Dr's out there in the world, sitting in windowless little rooms dealing with sick people every day - but for others it will be the most satisfying thing they could do.
> 
> ...




This is the most wise post I have read on ASF to date and great advice for those that are trying to develop their future life including attainment of wealth. I describe my job as "a fantastic hobby that helps pay for my other hobbies" which includes the outdoors, investments and other preparations for retirement. But it is hard to find something that maintains your passion to such a degree and pays well!

The only other proviso that needs to be added, and I often quote this to students: "To a great degree you determine your own destiny, but never underestimate chance, luck or fate"

I should add that I have always been one to look in any open doors on the way, or to not take the straight direct route - "I wonder what is down there?" - and I probably live a life that would be outside most peoples idea of being within comfort zones! To illustrate have a look at some of my photos at:

http://www.pbase.com/tasmart


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## tech/a (18 March 2009)

> investments and other preparations for retirement




Seriously of those who arent retired,or even perhaps those that are?

Do you really WANT at sometime to retire and particularly early retirement say 55-60?

I could retire but *FOR ME* Id be bored out of my brain couldnt think of anything worse!

Next step oblivion.



> "To a great degree you determine your own destiny, but never underestimate chance, luck or fate"




Particularly if you put yourself in front of it.

IE Recognise and do something with opportunity.


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## Cartman (18 March 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> lol - and yeah cheers for the compliments cartman - having trouble walking through doorways now my head's so big.   Unfortunately sometimes experience/wisdom comes from doing the opposite of the right thing.  (i.e. *you learn from your mistakes *and heck I've learnt a lot ).




haha --- exactly --- when we think we have stopped learning C/F --- thats when we become *old* no it -alls who basically become a pain in the @rse ---- knowledge of our own mortality is a wake up call that over rides all the fear and greed that the market could ever throw at us ----- 

life is just a game ----- play it with dignity and sincerity --- and leave the game with respect ------ 

ok --- a bit deep --- (ive had a burbon or 2 ---- lol --- my apologies ---)   

seriously though C/F --- u have earned my respect (maybe thats not worth much --- haha --- ) ---- and i dare say many posters on this forum would have  the same opinion ---- so u enjoy yr big head   lol ----- Cheers


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## tasmart (18 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Seriously of those who arent retired,or even perhaps those that are?
> 
> Do you really WANT at sometime to retire and particularly early retirement say 55-60?
> 
> ...


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## Cartman (18 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I could retire but *FOR ME* *Id be bored out of my brain* couldnt think of anything worse!
> 
> Next step oblivion.




Haha ---- Tech --- u and i have been a logger heads over many things, and even if u think i'm a pain in the @rse ---- and i think similar about u at times, we are perhaps not so different in some ways    --- 

of course i refuse to say i agree with u in any way shape or form cause that would ruin both our reputations -----


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 March 2009)

kingcarmleo said:


> GG et al
> 
> What are the best tips you could give an 18 yr old like myself trying to amass a fortune? I am looking to get ahead start while i'm young. I am at uni and also work 15 hrs a week. I just started investing a couple grand and I plan to pick up some blue chip stocks when this mess seems to have reached the bottom. I was thinking if Interest rates drop to 2.5% I will take out a 10k loan and invest in blue chips. I'm not sure what else I can do to start building my wealth.
> 
> ...




All the advice given so far re starting small and growing slowly is moot mate.

However 18 is a time for enjoying yourself, girls, booze, substances, travel and the odd bit of study.

So don't get too hung up on making money at your age.

there's plenty of time in your 20's or thirties to start.

You have one thing any rich man would give his fortune for, youth.

Best of luck with everything.

gg


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## nunthewiser (18 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You have one thing any rich man would give his fortune for, youth.
> 
> Best of luck with everything.
> 
> gg




very well done m8


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## MrBurns (18 March 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You have one thing any rich man would give his fortune for, youth.
> 
> Best of luck with everything.
> 
> gg




Amen, youth is wasted on the young, just when you work everything out you're buggered.....enjoy it while you can and while we're at it be careful who you marry, make sure she's REALLY head over heels for you.


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## Julia (18 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Seriously of those who arent retired,or even perhaps those that are?
> 
> Do you really WANT at sometime to retire and particularly early retirement say 55-60?
> 
> ...




Ah, Tech, we've had this discussion before.   Some people have their identities all tied up in their work, and define themselves by their work achievements.  

Others regard their work as the means to an income which will allow them to widen their horizons via other interests. 

To say what you have above suggests that you view the current work you do as being the only worthwhile activity you could engage in.

If that's so, how would you get on if for any reason you couldn't go on doing what you're doing?   e.g. accident/illness etc?

Remember how a few years ago you reluctantly agreed to do a course of some sort (sorry, can't remember the details now, but you had been very sceptical that you, with your own successful business, could learn anything new)?  But you did learn new things, didn't you, and were glad you had done it.

I think what I'm wondering is whether you might at some stage consider extending that approach to life in general, i.e. maybe there could be fields of interest or endeavour you've never considered which might be equally or even more rewarding than what currently represents your passion.

Just a thought.


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## Stormin_Norman (18 March 2009)

i plan to short sell bicycle helmets.


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## Cartman (18 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Ah, Tech, we've had this discussion before.   Some people have their identities all tied up in their work, and define themselves by their work achievements.
> 
> Others regard their work as the means to an income which will allow them to widen their horizons via other interests.
> 
> ...





i luv deep thinking women  (not literally of course Julia cause i dont actually know u  ) ------ u r part of a special breed ----- 

and my wife luvs german sheppards (she used to own one many years ago, just like yr pic) 

Tech could not possibly change his ways cause he is 
a) too old --- and 
b) he is too old --

apart from that, his age may be a barrier!!   ---  (lol---  )


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## Julia (18 March 2009)

LOL, Cartman, you may well be right.

Your wife has good taste in dogs.


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## Cartman (18 March 2009)

Julia said:


> LOL, Cartman, you may well be right.
> 
> Your wife has good taste in dogs.





well of course she does -----

she married me !!! ---- lol ----  (when i was just a pup of course !!)


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## tech/a (19 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Ah, Tech, we've had this discussion before.   Some people have their identities all tied up in their work, and define themselves by their work achievements.
> 
> Others regard their work as the means to an income which will allow them to widen their horizons via other interests.
> 
> ...





Julia.

I have to admit that our previous conversation did come to mind as I typed the question.

Business to me satisfies 2 necessities.

(1) Presents a constant challenge which I love to be involved in,particularly in times like these. Infact I prefer it to boom times. Yes there are many other challenges. Personal health,kids,Marriage,you/I dont have to look far.

(2) Cash flow. Looking forward 30 yrs I see periods of high inflation and a devaluing of savings. I look at my own father who retired at 54 with what was then thought a small fortune. Now he is supplimented with a pension at 85.

Its a general question one which people will all answer in their own way.


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## theasxgorilla (19 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> You know it seems to boil down to passion.
> Passionate people often become passionate about their lives and those of others.
> 
> It rubs off.




Lots of passion out there...the MCG is filled with it several times a week during footy season, but there are only 36 professional athletes on the field.  If you want to be successful study the latter.

And TH has been conveying the secret over and over and over again...purposeful practice (at something) and lots of it.

I can be passionate about music and amass a collection and listen to it over and over and over again.  But all I ever become is a better consumer.


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## Bat_Ears (17 April 2009)

Garpal, how did you make your money?


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## MrBurns (17 April 2009)

Bat_Ears said:


> Garpal, how did you make your money?




Shhhhhhhh !


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 April 2009)

Bat_Ears said:


> Garpal, how did you make your money?




Hard work and Luck in equal measure.

I still put in a Lotto and will win one day.

gg


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## MrBurns (17 April 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Hard work and Luck in equal measure.
> 
> I still put in a Lotto and will win one day.
> 
> gg




The harder you work the luckier you get, funny about that.

My father always said about lottery tickets, "It's cheap insurance"


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## stl_08 (19 April 2009)

Bat_Ears said:


> Garpal, how did you make your money?




Drugs. Drugs drugs definatly drugs


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## Stan 101 (19 April 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Hard work and Luck in equal measure.
> 
> I still put in a Lotto and will win one day.
> 
> gg





Why? How much is enough? 

I have more than I need and find the majority of what I possess is a burden.


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## matty2.0 (20 April 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Don't listen to Warren Buffet quotes :
> 
> 
> Also, pick and choose your friends.




That's what Warren Buffett says.


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## Naked shorts (20 April 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> That's what Warren Buffett says.




What? pick and choose your friends?

There are many other very highly successful people who say to do that as well


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## tech/a (20 April 2009)

The more successful in the world seem to attract "friends" like them or not. Excess baggage is one term I've heard used.

But real Friends are few and far between.
Those that see the person not the achievements.
These are the ones who add value to ones existance.


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## prawn_86 (20 April 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> I have more than I need and find the majority of what I possess is a burden.




Perhaps you would enjoy philantropy then. Give it to a cause close to your heart.

Even though im 'only' a student i still give 10% of my disposable income to charity, as i feel that i am in a priveliged position and should give something back


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## Stan 101 (20 April 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Perhaps you would enjoy philantropy then. Give it to a cause close to your heart.
> 
> Even though im 'only' a student i still give 10% of my disposable income to charity, as i feel that i am in a priveliged position and should give something back




Great post, Prawn. Yep, there are lots of things that can be done. South East Asia is close to my heart so that's where my energies get filtered to.


cheers,


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 May 2009)

If Rudd and Swan wallop me on Budget night, after all the handouts they have given to the druggies and criminals on the dole, amongst others,  I will have to re evaluate my future as a taxpayer. 

One option I'm looking at is selling up and going on the road in a Winnebago and just working for cash as I go.

gg


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## Wysiwyg (9 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> If Rudd and Swan wallop me on Budget night, after all the handouts they have given to the druggies and criminals on the dole, amongst others,  I will have to re evaluate my future as a taxpayer.
> 
> One option I'm looking at is selling up and going on the road in a Winnebago and just working for cash as I go.
> 
> gg




You probably won`t be the only one moving to `in the hand`. I don`t mind being taxed for reason but I do know when it is excessive.


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## MrBurns (9 May 2009)

If a working class Englishman saw a bloke drive past in a Rolls-Royce, he'd say to himself "Come the social revolution and we'll take that away from you, mate". Whereas if his American counterpart saw a bloke drive past in a Cadillac he'd say "One day I'm going to own one of those". To my way of thinking the first attitude is wrong. The latter is right.

Kerry Packer


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## noirua (19 July 2009)

The world's 50 richest people (be patient with this link as it changes as it will, a mind of its own):  http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/10/50...ionaires-wealth_slide_20.html?thisspeed=15000


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## Tisme (30 July 2017)

http://www.ladbible.com/now/weird-theres-a-new-richest-person-in-the-world-20170727


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## luutzu (31 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.ladbible.com/now/weird-theres-a-new-richest-person-in-the-world-20170727




dam he would make a good Lex Luthor.


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## basilio (6 March 2019)

Couldn't make this up.
The worlds youngest self made billionaire ( at 21 !) who employs five full time staff and seven part time..

*Kylie Jenner beats Mark Zuckerberg to become youngest self-made billionaire*

Kylie Jenner has been named the youngest self-made billionaire of all time by Forbes magazine, thanks to the booming cosmetics company she founded three years ago.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-06/kylie-jenner-becomes-youngest-self-made-billionaire/10874398


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## tech/a (6 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Couldn't make this up.
> The worlds youngest self made billionaire ( at 21 !) who employs five full time staff and seven part time..
> 
> *Kylie Jenner beats Mark Zuckerberg to become youngest self-made billionaire*
> ...




Hardly self made.
The US money machine with Jenner as the figure head created her wealth.
All she had to do was be her! Only in the US of A.


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## Macquack (6 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Couldn't make this up.
> The worlds youngest self made billionaire ( at 21 !) who employs *five full time* staff and *seven part time*..



Looks like the trickle down theory is not working at all.

Make a few Americans rich again and f### everybody else.


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## noirua (29 April 2019)




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## kahuna1 (29 April 2019)

Warren paid NO tax ... to anyone ... during his career .
HE does share his tax returns and his 15% tax whilst going ... oooh it should be higher. The income of 5 years averaged less than 50 million he declared as income. With 100 billion how long does it take to get there at 50 million a year ? ... 200 years.

Is Mr Buffett 2000 years old ? 

His favorite charities ... his son and the ranch on the Arizona Mexico border where its a fortress and high powered rifles and even helicopters protect against illegal immigrants.

Second favorite with Gates is the 1 billion donation via Buffett and 3 billion plus via Gates ..  and a few  others on top via Buffett  to planned parenthood. I don't dispute the right of a woman to choose .... especially in the case of awful or life threatening things. It is however part of the EUGENICS society where Gates father was the head for many years. Free $1,000 procedures, medical ones ... the ONLY free ones in the USA ... and 80 % of your customers are either LATINO or BLACK .... the rest poor whites.

If it costs 325 million a year to run community health centers in the USA ... for the poor mainly non white, but covering 25 million peoples health care ....  why would one donate 15 years of funding ONE way and NOT a cent the other ? 

I must have my priorities wrong !!

As to Mr Gates, tax wise ... Mr Buffets main holding of stock is Apple which in Austrlaia books sales of 8 billion ... reports a NET profit in the USA on sales of 25% PLUS margin after R+D ... and all costs, yet here .... on 2 billion CLEAR profit and tax owing of 600 million we are lucky to get 40 million. So over 10 years its costing us 5 billion.

Microsoft till 2016 had sales of 3.9 billion here in Australia. Only 600 million was booked here ... 3.3 billion booked via Singapore or Cayman Island tax haven. NON payment of 330 million GST. Similar margin on sales profit over 25% AFTER costs after R+D ... yet we get under 20 tax paid million verses ... 300 owed. In short ... 550 million MISSING a year. 5.5 billion a decade.

Do I admire them ? One hand yes their inventions and innovation or discipline no doubt earn t them billions well earnt. The difference between taking 5.5 billion from Australia a mere 5% of global markets every decade and the rest of the world ... so 60 billion globally outside the USA ... and yes they onw minorities of these crooks, Gates was the main shareholder ... Microsoft.

I do debate the status of these people as human beings. USA life expectancy crashes. Australia from along list of similar mainly USA based crooks looses 30 billion easily seen tax a year.   

On that topic I despise them ... not for their wealth ... but for their greed.
That they choose to donate, a good thing, or so I thought. Debate about Mexico border wall ... when the worlds 3rd richest man is well .. donating to Howard Buffett to build his own border wall and armed camp. As to Eugenics and pure white master race, Gates ... well his links and Buffetts as well ...

Yuk ...


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## Value Collector (29 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Warren paid NO tax ... to anyone ... during his career .
> HE does share his tax returns and his 15% tax whilst going ... oooh it should be higher. The income of 5 years averaged less than 50 million he declared as income. With 100 billion how long does it take to get there at 50 million a year ? ... 200 years.
> 
> Is Mr Buffett 2000 years old ?
> ...




The companies warren owns inside Berkshire Hathaway (his company) pay billions of $$$ of tax.

But, offcourse because Warren doesn’t sell any of his shareholding (except to donate to charity) and because Berkshire pays no dividends, Warren doesn’t have any personal income from Berkshire from which to pay tax on.

His personal tax is limited to his income earned on some personal holdings he owns outside of his Berkshire stock.


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## kahuna1 (29 April 2019)

Do not disagree there ...

the companies he owns pay millions to lobby USA goverment to pay no tax.
Their antics here .... Apple ... taxless ... Microsoft ... tax less Goldman Sachs tax less ... HERE.

I do understand HOW he has avoided tax in the USA, quite legal ... there but so too is no healthcare for 15% emergency Healthcare called Medicaid for another 25% ... 42% of all Cancer patients 2 years after diagnosis are broke .. bankrupt ... . I am not sure I admire ... or despise him and Gates.

They export part of this to us HERE ... via NOT tax here for their interests or less than 10% paid.

Its one part admire ... a lot more wondering if they are monsters ... trying to ignore their antics is hard when the lower 80% in USA suffer s much and here, not all these two ... but 30 billion ... if we gave relief for half of it say to lower mid ... incomes and the rest in hand-backs ...

That's over $1,500 EACH ... every year for every person ... in Australia ... *stolen*. THE NDS paid for in full each year ... a tax cut of $1,500 or say $750 tax cut to everyone and lower the burden ..

It is a bloody lot to pay anyone ... overseas ... because they are rich and can bribe USA politics.

Oh I can provide ATO tax office stuff on this on their turnover, claimed profit here. ... and lack of tax GST and Income via company profits tax ...

Contrast here ... hard for our rich to avoid tax. Andrew Forrest goes out of his way to employ aboriginals and give them a chance, Buffet and Gates give them  no healthcare just free abortions ... whilst charity ... its directed .. and GAtes father head of Eugenics in USA a shocker ... .. their colored and less well off and supported in every way than here ..... Forrest champions against slavery, Lobby money to pay slave wages in USA comes from the likes of Gates and CO ... more the Koch Brothers and Walmart owners ... the Waltons.

Stark and confronting.


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## noirua (24 February 2021)

Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich's stunning new £430million Solaris yacht pictured for first time
					

ROMAN Abramovich’s new £430million superyacht is pictured in all its glory for the first time. The 460ft Solaris, which will have eight decks including a helicopter pad, is nearing completion. No e…




					www.thesun.co.uk


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## noirua (25 April 2021)

At today's value for money the fourth richest person in history is:





*Born*: 1750
*Business*: First Bank of the U.S.
*Industry*: Financial
*Net Worth Today*: $800 billion*









						Stephen Girard | Investing Magazine
					

Born: 1750 Business: First Bank of the U.S. Industry: Financial Net Worth Today: $800 billion* Stephen Girard was born in 1750, and he was a philanthropist, banker, and naturalized citizen. He was actually born in France, though, when he died at age 81, he died in Philadelphia. He was so rich...




					za.investing.com
				



Stephen Girard​


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## noirua (25 April 2021)

The fifth richest person in US modern history is:





Jocelyn Wildenstein​
*Born*: 1940
*Business*: Independent
*Industry*: Socialite
*Net Worth Today*: $500 million*










						Jocelyn Wildenstein | Investing Magazine
					

Born: 1940Business: IndependentIndustry: SocialiteNet Worth Today: $500 million* While her net worth has fluctuated greatly over the years, there’s no denying that Jocelyn Wildenstein is one of American history’s most colorful elites. Born in Switzerland, Wildenstein was floating around circles...




					za.investing.com


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## noirua (25 April 2021)

The seventh richest person in US modern history is:





Daymond John​*Born*: 1969
*Business*: FUBU
*Industry*: Clothing
*Net Worth Today*: $300 million*









						Daymond John | Investing Magazine
					

Born: 1969Business: FUBUIndustry: ClothingNet Worth Today: $300 million* In true rags to riches fashion, Daymong John founded his soon-to-be empire with his mother in their living room in Queens. With the initial goal of making cheap t-shirts and hats to sell around his neighborhood, John soon...




					za.investing.com


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## basilio (25 April 2021)

Interesting stories of personal wealth but there is a big error in saying Jocelyn and Daymond are the 5th and 7th wealthiest people in the US.





__





						List of wealthiest Americans by net worth - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## noirua (7 August 2021)

__





						Jeff Bezos loses spot as richest man in the world
					





					www.msn.com
				



The top spot now belongs to Bernard Arnault, chairman of the luxury goods conglomerate LVMH.


----------

