# Brexit OUT of EU: What happens now?



## noco (24 June 2016)

Brittan has voted to exit the EU.

How will it affect Australia?

Will it be good or bad?


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## dutchie (24 June 2016)

noco said:


> Brittan has voted to exit the EU.
> 
> How will it affect Australia?
> 
> Will it be good or bad?




Life goes on.


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2016)

I doubt if it will have much effect on us at all.

It's going to take 2 years for them to leave, by which time our companies will have adjusted to the new regime.


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## CanOz (24 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> Life goes on.




That's what you think?

There will be shoes to drop yet, you don't crash the global markets and not get a bruises on ya....


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## Knobby22 (24 June 2016)

I think overall it's a good thing but there are dangers.

One danger is that a succession of countries will start leaving increasing the disruption. Anther is that free trade is compromised.

The disruption from England leaving won't be that much as they were only half in it anyway and never took on the currency.


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## trainspotter (24 June 2016)

This is from a good mate of mine who lives in England ...



> Not much will change cos there will always be crooks and liars in charge of the country. But for now the big cats in Brussels have lost a substantial block of cheese, which they will try and get back sometime.


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## noco (24 June 2016)

What I don't understand is why has it affected the Aussie stock market today.

I believed it would open up new markets for us.


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## dutchie (24 June 2016)

Cameron steps down.


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## moXJO (24 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> Cameron steps down.




He didn't have much choice.
I think the whole thing will widen the divide between left and right. It was already fairly vicious throughout the campaign.

As for the markets,  lest we forget:
Bird flu
Boomers all retiring at once
GFC
Ebola 
Swine flu.
Greece
Spain
Russia
Etc

It's all happened before and each event is always "the end as we know it"
Great time to trade volatility.


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## noco (24 June 2016)

A cool $50 billion wiped off the Aussie stock market today.

The pundits say we will recover.


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## Ald123 (24 June 2016)

Before

Tusk said. "As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilization in its entirety."

After

Tusk said "There is no way of predicting all the political consequences of this event – especially for the UK. It is a historic moment, but not a moment for hysterical reactions.”

Could someone please call his village and ask them to demand they get their hysterical idiot back.


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## Gringotts Bank (24 June 2016)

Before the internet and cheap air travel came about, poor populations didn't know how bad they had it.  If you lived on a rubbish tip in Bangladesh, that's all you knew - that was life.  You didn't know that in Australia you could be financially destitute and yet receive endless handouts - high quality free health care for life, subsidised housing and free education.  You didn't even have to work.

Internet changed all that.  Look how good life is in the West!  Get here quick!  What follows is a massive and unsustainable demand on any free services - healthcare, govt housing, benefits and education.  The quality of life degrades broadly, unless you're super rich.  That's why people hate open border policies.  So the Brits decided to close up shop.  It's a negative, and at the same time necessary.

The UN needs new powers regarding the use of force to remove violent dicators/regimes from power.  And 1st world countries need to funnell massive funding into 3rd and 2nd world countries (via the UN) in order to build prosperous and sustainable communities, so that people don't feel the need to escape.

Easy to say.  Easy to do.  

vote 1 GB


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## Smurf1976 (24 June 2016)

So far as the markets are concerned, I'm more worried about contagion than anything else.

The markets have moved significantly. Some have made money whilst others have lost it. Quite likely, someone has lost rather a lot and that's the concerning bit. In due course we might find out someone big has actually gone broke, will default on something else, which then triggers someone else to default and we end up with a GFC-style event.

I'm not saying it will happen but with such a sudden large move it would seem to be at least possible. Someone took on a big position expecting the "remain" vote to win and ended up with a big loss. Seems plausible to me.

For non-market things, my real concern is that it will ultimately trigger a breakup of the EU as a whole. It could survive without the UK yes, but if another "big" country (economically) decides to pull out then it starts to become pointless for the rest to remain and then the whole thing falls apart. That's probably not a good thing in terms of maintaining peace in the region (in a military sense) over the long term.

At the moment it's all speculation. We know that the UK has voted to exit the EU and that's it. 

We can assume but can't be 100% sure that they will actually go through with the exit, that's the first issue. Nothing is ever certain until it actually happens and that's particularly so when politics is the driving force.

It's possible that someone has lost serious $ and is now broke but again we don't know that yet. Another possibility that may or may not eventuate. 

And we don't know whether or not any other countries will go down the same track. Another thing that's possible but thus far an unknown. 

The only real conclusion I can draw at this stage is that we're likely to see volatility both political and financial as all this plays out. It's quite possibly the end of markets going sideways in a narrow range and we'll see some bigger moves one way or the other.


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## overhang (24 June 2016)

Wish I took the threat of the EU exit seriously and bought up on gold, what a safe plunge that would have been.  If the vote was no as expected it would have been business as usual and a safe exit from gold and now we have gold up 10%.


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## Caveman (24 June 2016)

I think it will be business as usual for the Brits let alone Australia. *Yawn*


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## trainspotter (24 June 2016)

Caveman said:


> I think it will be business as usual for the Brits let alone Australia. *Yawn*




So we will rebound 56 billion in one day? And that's just Australia !! Britain's vote to leave the European Union battered the British pound by more than 11%, in Japan, the Nikkei 225 tumbled to close 7.92 percent lower, UK's credit rating to suffer, Gold bounces to $1,300-an-ounce mark to its highest level in two years, Scotland's government want's  independence from the U.K. after the "Brexit" vote and if you talk to basilio the global temperatures will rise by at least 0.02+/- in a week !!


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## moXJO (24 June 2016)

What happens now?
Juicy trades is what happens!
Fear and greed at its finest.


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## Caveman (25 June 2016)

Rebound to billions in 1 day! I doubt it,some blue chip stocks are just back to where they were in april or even still higher.As for the Scots perhaps they prefer the Auld alliance.I actually think I have missed out on some bargain hunting but we will see monday.


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## Bill M (25 June 2016)

moXJO said:


> He didn't have much choice.
> I think the whole thing will widen the divide between left and right. It was already fairly vicious throughout the campaign.
> 
> As for the markets,  lest we forget:
> ...





Best post so far, did anyone notice how Aus bonds went up today? I might be selling mine for a nice profit soon. Then I will redirect those profits into the sharemarket when it tanks further. It won't be long until bonds start tanking and the sharemarket starts going up again, arrrrrh patience and diversification pays off. By the way, nearly all Aus share ETF's are going ex dividend within the next week, ssshhhhh don't tell anybody, sell, sell, sell.. Brexit, who cares.


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## noco (25 June 2016)

The latest from the Courier Mail as to the affects on Australia.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...a/news-story/e2826b95d588a92e6ab6aa644118d0b6

*BRITAIN’S shock referendum decision to quit the European Union has unleashed a wave of global jitters which will immediately influence the outcome of our July 2 election.

Markets of all sorts — stocks, futures, oil, butter — want certainty, and the Brits have removed that by a tiny majority of votes.

Britain is only a minor player in our trade as we concentrate on the Asia-Pacific region and giants such as China, Japan, South Korea and India.

But the flow-on effect of its withdrawal from the EU, and the wait while it renegotiates its trade agreements with Europe, will be felt everywhere. As one Australian economist put it today, this could be a further headwind to growth.

Our dollar could fall in value and investment will be slow.

The unsettled conditions are not of his making, but they could favour Malcolm Turnbull over Bill Shorten in the election.

The uncertainty which will follow the Brexit victory will heighten an examination of the economic credentials of the Prime Minister and his team, and the Labor front bench under Mr Shorten — just as Labor is set to release its election promises costings.

This will underline Labor’s strategy of increased spending and prolonged deficits.*


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## moXJO (25 June 2016)

moXJO said:


> He didn't have much choice.
> I think the whole thing will widen the divide between left and right. It was already fairly vicious throughout the campaign.
> 
> As for the markets,  lest we forget:
> ...




Y2K and tech crash, how did I forget them.
Also: Asian financial crisis.


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## pixel (25 June 2016)

One thing that worries me more than a few $Billion or $Trillion up or down on global markets: *The resurgence of right-wing Nationalist xenophobia*. That is likely to spread through other countries, be it in the EU, Trump's USofA, or Australia. The result would be even more Big Government, closed borders, and increased snooping into people's privacy.


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## dutchie (25 June 2016)

The Netherlands will be next.


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## explod (25 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> The Netherlands will be next.




Anyones guess really. 

How long before there will be no takers for packaged debt from the US.   Thats when the cooking will really start.


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## Logique (27 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> The Netherlands will be next.



Agree, Denmark and The Netherlands will not be far behind. 

Uncertainty will linger, and market volatility.


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## Tisme (27 June 2016)

pixel said:


> One thing that worries me more than a few $Billion or $Trillion up or down on global markets: *The resurgence of right-wing Nationalist xenophobia*. That is likely to spread through other countries, be it in the EU, Trump's USofA, or *Australia*. The result would be even more Big Government, closed borders, and increased snooping into people's privacy.




I think we have been ahead of the pack ever since Phoney Tony Abbott became captain of the LNP and gave every half wit around the world a champion when he hit the international news with his overt Mr Stupid commentary :


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## basilio (27 June 2016)

Quite a good analysis of the impact of Bexit on UK.



> *
> Fintan O’Toole: Brexit fantasy is about to come crashing down*
> Brexit vote reveals rancour and distrust at the heart of the English body politic
> Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 00:01 Updated: Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 08:40
> ...




http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/f...tasy-is-about-to-come-crashing-down-1.2698974


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## trainspotter (27 June 2016)

How it is in North Lincolnshire ...





What it is like in Paternoster Square ...


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## moXJO (27 June 2016)

pixel said:


> One thing that worries me more than a few $Billion or $Trillion up or down on global markets: *The resurgence of right-wing Nationalist xenophobia*. That is likely to spread through other countries, be it in the EU, Trump's USofA, or Australia. The result would be even more Big Government, closed borders, and increased snooping into people's privacy.




They didn't just pop up for no reason. PC lefties have a lot to answer for. Even now we see democracy being dismantled by the twitterati calling for another vote to remain. The remain group used as much if not more fear then the leave camp. The right has been getting restless for a long time and it's started filtering out to fill membership in the extreme right.

They need a return to center by picking a sensible PM. What they don't need is these idiot celebrities pushing their agendas.


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## wayneL (27 June 2016)

Agree moXJO. Several months ago I posted to the same effect, with the left pushing its luck, expect the resurgence of the neonazi right. 

Moderate Europeans fear this as much as they fear the Islamification of their culture, but also they feel pushed further right as a reaction to the excesses of the left.


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## explod (27 June 2016)

wayneL said:


> Agree moXJO. Several months ago I posted to the same effect, with the left pushing its luck, expect the resurgence of the neonazi right.
> 
> Moderate Europeans fear this as much as they fear the Islamification of their culture, but also they feel pushed further right as a reaction to the excesses of the left.




And both extremes feed on inequality and poverty.   Not forgetting bombs in the name of freedom and democracy to protect oil and gas field interests.


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## Knobby22 (27 June 2016)

https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE


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## pixel (27 June 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE




Thanks Knobby 
That's the best summary I've heard; gave me the best guffaw in a long time. 
Sadly, in real life it's so damn true as well.


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## Smurf1976 (27 June 2016)

wayneL said:


> Agree moXJO. Several months ago I posted to the same effect, with the left pushing its luck, expect the resurgence of the neonazi right
> 
> Moderate Europeans fear this as much as they fear the Islamification of their culture, but also they feel pushed further right as a reaction to the excesses of the left.




I can recall in the past, say 10+ years ago, hearing various people comment along the lines of "how on earth did the Germans ever end up putting Hitler in charge? Could they not see the danger? Surely nothing like that could happen again but I wonder how it ever happened in the first place?"

Sadly, I'm slowly but surely coming to the realisation of how things like that occur. Slowly but surely society in Australia and other Western countries is being pushed toward extreme views and what was unthinkable is becoming reality.

It's like someone's hair falling out or the brakes wearing out on a car. It happens so slowly that you don't see the change if you're looking too closely but stand back, look at it over a longer period of time, and the change is clear.

Compare the world now with 20 years ago. Happy and free is out, extremism in all its forms is increasing. What was unthinkable is now normal. What was normal and unquestioned is now gone or at least under serious threat.

It worries me where this will all end an I do fear that the answer to that question involves outright war at some point once a sufficiently troublesome few manage to get themselves elected.


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## CanOz (27 June 2016)

Smurf, we've been at war, over a decade now


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## basilio (27 June 2016)

Another sobering look at what appears likely to happen to Britain over Brexit.

If the analysis is correct England will be totally xcrewed.


> *
> Brexit hardball: the European Union will treat Britain like Greece
> *
> Date
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-...reat-britain-like-greece-20160627-gpsm67.html


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## moXJO (28 June 2016)

basilio said:


> Another sobering look at what appears likely to happen to Britain over Brexit.
> 
> If the analysis is correct England will be totally xcrewed.
> 
> ...




Or the EU breaks down as other countries leave. There are s lot of ways this might play out.


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## Knobby22 (28 June 2016)

Britain were never properly in the EU. For instance they never changed currency.
I read a good article last week that they have often acted in ways that hurt the EU.

in my opinion, the EU will work better without them and Britain itself will now be more flexible and able to compete better. I think you will see a bit of a boom once this 'sky is falling" phase is past.


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## Logique (28 June 2016)

Spot on Boris!



> Despite Brexit, Britain will always be part of Europe - June 27, 2016
> Boris Johnson - SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/despi...-of-europe-20160626-gpsh9v.html#ixzz4CpS4foGL
> 
> Boris Johnson is former Mayor of London, Conservative Party MP and was a leading spokesman for the 'Leave' campaign.
> ...


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## CanOz (28 June 2016)

Logique said:


> Spot on Boris!




He's not your everyday conservative is he? I like what he says, he seems fair. But the mess they're in now will take decades to unravel into something resembling a heathy economy. Will job creating corporations be interested in GB now?


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2016)

It will be interesting to see if Boris enthusiastically stands for PM to sort out what he created, or if he will try and worm out of it and leave it to someone else.


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## moXJO (28 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> He's not your everyday conservative is he? I like what he says, he seems fair. But the mess they're in now will take decades to unravel into something resembling a heathy economy. Will job creating corporations be interested in GB now?




From what I heard there are a lot of corporations looking at moving to GB as they will no longer have the restrictive red tape of the EU.


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## CanOz (28 June 2016)

moXJO said:


> From what I heard there are a lot of corporations looking at moving to GB as they will no longer have the restrictive red tape of the EU.




It depends if they're labor dependent or not...You're going to pay more for labor if there is an alternative a few countries away with cheaper labor

What makes the bureaucracy in the EU different from the UK? Restrictive?


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## McLovin (28 June 2016)

> The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that Britain will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal...




No it won't. If the UK still wants to access the single market then it will still have to incorporate vast swathes of EU legislation into its domestic law, it just won't have a say at the table deciding such things.



> Yes, the government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry.




The emerging consensus is the UK wants a Norway style deal that will see it return to the EEA. The EEA still has the four pillars policy, including the free movement of labour within the EEA. The UKIP idiots actually believe that they can get single market access for goods and services without the free movement of labour, as someone in the EU said, if we do that then why not let in Australia and NZ too.

Boris is being pretty foolish if he thinks the EU, err I mean Merkel, is going to give the UK what it wants and expect nothing in return. The pussyfooting around by the UK government, which seems to be in total chaos has strengthened the hand of the EU.

As for Boris, well he's just a politician, and not a very good one.


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## dutchie (28 June 2016)

England wants a replay of Brexit and the game against Iceland.


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## UMike (29 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> England wants a replay of Brexit and the game against Iceland.




Probably lose both again anyway.


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## doctorj (29 June 2016)

moXJO said:


> From what I heard there are a lot of corporations looking at moving to GB as they will no longer have the restrictive red tape of the EU.




Name one.

I've been in London for quite a few years now. I am sympathetic to those that voted leave, as clearly they're unhappy with the way things are working out for them and they're looking for something better. They're not really sure if it's red tape from the EU, immigration or whatever, but they've seen their coal mines shut, the north of England transform into a post-industrial wasteland (and a great place to film zombie movies) and post financial crisis they've felt poorer than ever.





The EU has given them something to blame for their situation. Their response is to vote for exploring the supposedly greener grass on the other side. Arguments like the one above; the EU-generated red tape, are often used in support of the vote.  Belief of such arguments requires a suspension of reality.

The reality is that the UK has plenty of red tape of its own and in the absence of EU-generated regulation, in most circumstances UK-generated regulation would have taken it's place. 

The impact of the leave vote has already hit hard, but is reality is only at the beginning. Banks, which make up 26% of exports now have a higher cost of funding (due to the sovereign downgrade), are likely to be hit by higher NPLs in a weakened domestic market caused by a likely recession and many will be forced to relocate if they want to continue doing business with the EU as the UK will no longer be part of the single market. 1.1 million people work in the UK financial sector and most of them are not wealthy traders or M&A people.

But it's not just banks. In Sunderland, 61.3% of people voted to leave. Nissan, one of the largest employers in the city (6,700 people) has a plant to assemble cars for domestic sale and export which now is of questionable viability because of the pending loss of EU market access. Elsewhere in the pro-remain north, Siemans has announced that it will suspend investment in wind turbine manufacture in Hull until there's clarity on their ability to export it. Many large employers in the UK are now faced with difficult decisions about how they can continue their business from the UK and have indicated they are considering the need to reduce their UK based workforce to move it elsewhere - Vodafone, VISA Europe, GM, Ford, Toyota, BT, BMW and many more.

From my side, I couldn't run my business without access to the single market. We are a small company, but we employ people from all over Europe. We need to do this because we just can't get enough British people with adequate expertise to do what we do. To give a specific example, we simply cannot get our hands on enough developers with any kind of financial services experience in the UK and we have to hire from far and wide. And we don't have a business without them.

Rather than hurt our business, EU regulation stands to help it a lot. From one country, we can operate across a whole continent without having to deal with more than a dozen regulators - instead we can just deal with one that is around the corner, speaks our language and understands our business. But for Brexit, we would have continued access to fast and nearly free payments across the continent, access to data from banks through APIs, cheaper costs due to things like the abolition of roaming charges.

Instead we face 2 years or more of uncertainty. Will our staff be allowed to work for us in 2 years? Will we need to establish a European subsidiary to do business there? If we do, does it make sense to continue to have a UK office, when we actually don't ever expect to have UK-based customers? 

On a personal level, I think I contibute a lot to this country. I pay taxes, our company creates jobs. We export from Britain to the world. But as a foreigner, married to another foreigner, do I really want to remain in a country that is so against foreigners?


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## drsmith (29 June 2016)

Nigel Farage doing what he does best.

Earlier this month,



Post Brexit,


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## skc (29 June 2016)

doctorj said:


> Name one.
> 
> I've been in London for quite a few years now. I am sympathetic to those that voted leave, as clearly they're unhappy with the way things are working out for them and they're looking for something better. They're not really sure if it's red tape from the EU, immigration or whatever, but they've seen their coal mines shut, the north of England transform into a post-industrial wasteland (and a great place to film zombie movies) and post financial crisis they've felt poorer than ever.
> 
> On a personal level, I think I contibute a lot to this country. I pay taxes, our company creates jobs. We export from Britain to the world. But as a foreigner, married to another foreigner, do I really want to remain in a country that is so against foreigners?




Great post, DrJ. Good to hear from you.

I agree with your perspective from where you stand. Clearly the perspective of the Leavers are different.. although I am unclear if they are mis-informed, have too much mis-placed hope (that leaving solves all the problems) or are actually correct. It is like a divoice, where someone blames their state in life on their relationship, rightly or wrongly. What is different, however, is that in a marriage you can potentially go through counseling first and work things out. I wonder if EU/UK had that kind of mechanism? There are talks that the vote was in fact the mechanism to force EU to go counseling with UK, and that there will be a 2nd referendum to vote on whether any concession / compromises reached are acceptable to the public.

I can't believe the FTSE trading where it is (literally unchanged from the vote)... the banks have been whacked and no where rear recovered... which means the materials and industrials must be driving the index up? I suppose the fall in the pound helps. But the market seems to have ignored all the uncertainties you've mentioned.

Can't help but feel like they are going back in the water 5 minutes after a shark sighting.


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## CanOz (29 June 2016)

doctorj said:


> On a personal level, I think I contibute a lot to this country. I pay taxes, our company creates jobs. We export from Britain to the world. But as a foreigner, married to another foreigner, do I really want to remain in a country that is so against foreigners?




Doc,   :bowdown: first of all i can't begin to express how great it is to see you post again. Secondly, what a pragmatic and unbiased perspective of the Brexit, very much appreciated. 

Thirdly, I really hope everything works out for you, your family and your business. Good luck mate.


Cheers,



CanOz


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## sptrawler (29 June 2016)

From what I've read, only 50% voted and most of them would have been older people. 

Now we see the younger people in the streets complaining, shame they couldn't bother their ar$e to get out and vote, it's a bit late now.


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## moXJO (29 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> It depends if they're labor dependent or not...You're going to pay more for labor if there is an alternative a few countries away with cheaper labor
> 
> What makes the bureaucracy in the EU different from the UK? Restrictive?




Read here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce


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## doctorj (29 June 2016)

skc said:


> Clearly the perspective of the Leavers are different.. although I am unclear if they are mis-informed, have too much mis-placed hope (that leaving solves all the problems) or are actually correct.



Everyone I've spoken to that voted to leave did so in protest. They believe the system isn't working for them and they want change. They didn't believe that the economic risks were anything more than scaremongering and that, like the financial crisis, everything would be ok in the end.

'OK' is unfortunately a relative term and in the years to come it will be nigh on impossible to prove the counterfactual. I have no doubt that the world will keep turning, there will still be jobs and people will still get by. Some will also become more wealthy than they are today.

I also have no doubt that important elements of the financial services and manufacturing industries will continue to move away (and probably will be joined by many more industries that I know less about) and as a result, real incomes will continue to fall, probably even faster than the last few years.



CanOz said:


> Doc,   :bowdown: first of all i can't begin to express how great it is to see you post again. Secondly, what a pragmatic and unbiased perspective of the Brexit, very much appreciated.



Thanks! I still read ASF from time to time but sadly I just don't have the time to participate. On top of that, I don't have the ability to contribute much anyway as my understanding of Aussie equities and the economy is virutally fully depreciated after all these years away.



sptrawler said:


> From what I've read, only 50% voted and most of them would have been older people.
> 
> Now we see the younger people in the streets complaining, shame they couldn't bother their ar$e to get out and vote, it's a bit late now.



Yes, it's a big shame that younger voters didn't turn out to vote in the same proportions as older folk. It was their future on the line afterall. Turnout rates were generally quite high though.


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## moXJO (30 June 2016)

Sorry doc.
I posted a long reply last night, only to wake up and see I lost the lot.


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## McLovin (30 June 2016)

skc said:


> I wonder if EU/UK had that kind of mechanism?




They did try and negotiate back earlier this year. It was the agreement that Cameron secured that pretty much formed the basis of his Remain campaigning.



skc said:


> There are talks that the vote was in fact the mechanism to force EU to go counseling with UK, and that there will be a 2nd referendum to vote on whether any concession / compromises reached are acceptable to the public.




This has always been my view. The 27 countries of the EU excluding the UK know that they don't want the UK out and the UK is waking up to the fact that it doesn't really want to leave. If anything I think this vote has brought EU reform finally to the front and centre. Which is a good thing. Maybe they can also deal with the periphery which Brussels has put into perpetual depression.


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## CanOz (30 June 2016)

Why can't you have a Union plus some kind of regulated movement of people instead of absolute free movement of labor?


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## Gringotts Bank (30 June 2016)

skc said:


> It is like a divoice, where someone blames their state in life on their relationship, rightly or wrongly.




I was thinking exactly the same thing.  Separation is never a celebration even if it's the right decision.

Connection is good, but not all connections are healthy.  Separation can trigger old wounds, abandonment fears etc.  I'm sure that's what's going on with the 'Regrexit' crowd.


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## SirRumpole (30 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Why can't you have a Union plus some kind of regulated movement of people instead of absolute free movement of labor?




Good point. If the UK retained control over it's migration policies, it would still be in Europe and gain all the benefits thereof.

It was basic racism that took them out.


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## McLovin (30 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Why can't you have a Union plus some kind of regulated movement of people instead of absolute free movement of labor?




Because the single market has four freedoms; goods, services, capital and labour. It's not just about Britain, and it's not about the EU (in fact the EU has no real power in these negotiations). If Britain negotiates with the 27 other countries to to have those four freedoms, but in return the 27 countries only get limited freedom of labour how do they sell that to their own voters? Especially in countries that already have large eurosceptic movements.


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## CanOz (30 June 2016)

McLovin said:


> Because the single market has four freedoms; goods, services, capital and labour. It's not just about Britain. If Britain negotiates with the 27 other countries to to have those four freedoms, but in return the 27 countries only get limited freedom of labour how do they sell that to their own voters? Especially in countries that already have large eurosceptic movements.




Sure, but all that was before we had the biggest jihadist movement of modern times, which is clearly creating paranoid emotional responses, as likely intended. What if all parties agreed that a stricter border control 'pillar' is needed? Would that not help pacify some of the paranoid conservatives?


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## Gringotts Bank (30 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Sure, but all that was before we had the biggest jihadist movement of modern times, which is clearly creating paranoid emotional responses, as likely intended. What if all parties agreed that a stricter border control 'pillar' is needed? Would that not help pacify some of the paranoid conservatives?




Paranoia is irrational fear.  Nothing irrational about wanting less jihadists in the UK.  For me, it's a sh1tty but necessary decision.  I would have voted exit.  Even if the risk is low, it's a risk which can reduced by closing up shop temporarily.


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## McLovin (30 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Sure, but all that was before we had the biggest jihadist movement of modern times, which is clearly creating paranoid emotional responses, as likely intended. What if all parties agreed that a stricter border control 'pillar' is needed? Would that not help pacify some of the paranoid conservatives?




The issue is Poles and Romanians having the right to live and work in the UK not Islamic extremists. Britain is not part of the Schengen area and already maintains separate immigration for non-EU nationals.


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## SirRumpole (30 June 2016)

McLovin said:


> The issue is Poles and Romanians having the right to live and work in the UK not Islamic extremists. Britain is not part of the Schengen area and already maintains separate immigration for non-EU nationals.




So what about all the refugees flooding into Germany ? Do they eventually end up with the right to go anywhere in Europe ?


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## Gringotts Bank (30 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Paranoia is irrational fear.  Nothing irrational about wanting less jihadists in the UK.  For me, it's a sh1tty but necessary decision.  I would have voted exit.  Even if the risk is low, it's a risk which can reduced by closing up shop temporarily.




In other words Canoz, if you had an innocent friend or family member ripped in half by a bomb in central London in 2005... do you think you'd develop some anxiety or hatred for those of ME appearance?  Or would you still be cool as a cucumber lefty?  You're showing no empathy for, or understanding of, those who did experience exactly this.

I know it's not good to encourage fearful thinking, but neither is it good to push peoples' boundaries if fear has taken hold.


----------



## CanOz (30 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> In other words Canoz, if you had an innocent friend or family member ripped in half by a bomb in central London in 2005... do you think you'd develop some anxiety or hatred for those of ME appearance?  Or would you still be cool as a cucumber lefty?  You're showing no empathy for, or understanding of, those who did experience exactly this.
> 
> I know it's not good to encourage fearful thinking, but neither is it good to push peoples' boundaries if fear has taken hold.





Actually GB, every-time i watch the news i get anxious about extremism. After September 11th i went into a deep depression, brought on by a triple tragedy in my life as well as anxiety from the horrible events of 9/11. 

Despite all of this, i try and remain as objective as i can as i have lived in a country and have been subject to racism, i know what it feels like. I am also very sympathetic to the Middle Easterners cause, after all it was the US and her allies that repeatedly went into the middle east hunting for various groups and killing innocents....I can't help but feel for the people that have been hurt on both sides. I try to remain balanced and make my own judgments rather than rely on the media to scare me into staying at home...

I've got to say I've become more sympathetic to the refugees after we had our first child. To see the look in the eyes of the children pains me to no end.

I hope you can understand my view.


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## Gringotts Bank (30 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Actually GB, every-time i watch the news i get anxious about extremism. After September 11th i went into a deep depression, brought on by a triple tragedy in my life as well as anxiety from the horrible events of 9/11.
> 
> Despite all of this, i try and remain as objective as i can as i have lived in a country and have been subject to racism, i know what it feels like. I am also very sympathetic to the Middle Easterners cause, after all it was the US and her allies that repeatedly went into the middle east hunting for various groups and killing innocents....I can't help but feel for the people that have been hurt on both sides. I try to remain balanced and make my own judgments rather than rely on the media to scare me into staying at home...
> 
> ...




At heart we have the same view.  Nice post.


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## skc (30 June 2016)

McLovin said:


> They did try and negotiate back earlier this year. It was the agreement that Cameron secured that pretty much formed the basis of his Remain campaigning.




Meanwhile the leave campaign has freedom to say and promise anything.

It seems crazy that the vote is actually not legally binding. It's just the world's biggest opinion survey...



McLovin said:


> This has always been my view. The 27 countries of the EU excluding the UK know that they don't want the UK out and the UK is waking up to the fact that it doesn't really want to leave. If anything I think this vote has brought EU reform finally to the front and centre. Which is a good thing. Maybe they can also deal with the periphery which Brussels has put into perpetual depression.




That would be the best case scenario... but that would give every other member a free pass to change things? 

Also... how can the market be so optimistic and just seem to ignore all downside and price in the best possible outcome?


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## qldfrog (30 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So what about all the refugees flooding into Germany ? Do they eventually end up with the right to go anywhere in Europe ?



And if I was a Brit, that is enough of a reason to vote leave.No doubt at the rate of 1.1million a year min for Germany alone, it does not take long to overwhelm the natives in Europe;
better poor but free, than rich an extra 10y but under islam rule.
Funny how the left comparea the anti migration with nazis yet forget the analogy between the green and the brown plague.
Neither better in my opinion.
Churchill not Chamberlain


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## McLovin (30 June 2016)

skc said:


> Meanwhile the leave campaign has freedom to say and promise anything.
> 
> It seems crazy that the vote is actually not legally binding. It's just the world's biggest opinion survey...




The Westminster system doesn't really make allowance for referendums. Obviously in Australia the Constitution sets out the referendum process, but anything that doesn't require a change to the Constitution should be dealt with by the Parliament. That's why it's called representative democracy. In this instance, Cameron didn't consider that the vote would be close and he thought he could shut up the eurosceptics for at least a generation by putting it to a vote.




skc said:


> That would be the best case scenario... but that would give every other member a free pass to change things?




Any change will applied across the EU, not given as a special allowance to Britain. The eastern Europeans have the most to lose, and will fight the hardest. When push comes to shove, they'll probably accept that less free access is better than no access. The idea of free movement of labour within the EU was done at a time when it was a union of economically much similar countries, and most labour was unskilled. If the EU does not budge on immigration then it changes the ball game again, but the UK is still unlikely to shoot itself in the foot based on 35% of the voting public, and there will be another referendum.

All of that is of course my uninformed opinion.


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## CanOz (30 June 2016)

Thanks McLovin, however uninformed it may be, i always welcome it!


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## doctorj (30 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> In other words Canoz, if you had an innocent friend or family member ripped in half by a bomb in central London in 2005... do you think you'd develop some anxiety or hatred for those of ME appearance?  Or would you still be cool as a cucumber lefty?  You're showing no empathy for, or understanding of, those who did experience exactly this.




I had one *very* near miss myself with a bombing by Muslim extremists in Moscow a couple of years ago, so I have every sympathy for these views.

That said, I think it's important to focus the argument on the freedom of movement of people within the EU. Refugees from Syria and how Europe handles the sheer volume of them is in my mind a different matter that warrants it's own discussion. It's a challenging topic - how do we balance our need for a functioning society with our moral obligations to the world?

The unfortunate fact is that 3 of the 4 London bombers were born in the UK. The 4th was born in Jamaica. But I've come to the view in the last day or so that whilst concerns over immigration (and in the case of BNP/UKIP types racism) was a factor in the referendum, the driving force may be something far deeper and even sadder.

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/ explains my current view far more articulately than I possiby could.


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## Tisme (30 June 2016)

doctorj said:


> The unfortunate fact is that 3 of the 4 London bombers were born in the UK.




Do you think they felt empowered by having a strength of new numbers around them?


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## SirRumpole (1 July 2016)

Boris loses his bottle.


As I anticiptated, Boris Johnson pulls out of the leadership race in the wake of Brexit. He hasn't got what it takes to do the work that he created.


Brexit: Former London mayor Boris Johnson rules out tilt to be UK prime minister


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-...out-tilt-prime-minister-gove-to-stand/7559260


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## CanOz (19 July 2016)

Interesting Bloomy article....

Interesting how the farmer voted for Brexit, yet get such great benefits from being in the Union...my how stupid some have become.

Divided Northern Ireland Faces Brexit Hangover


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## qldfrog (19 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> Interesting how the farmer voted for Brexit, yet get such great benefits from being in the Union...my how stupid some have become.



Do you always vote for self interest?
If I did I would vote liberal every time, be pro migration to get gardeners paid 5$ an hour as in the US.
(some) people vote for a higher ideas and for what they believe is the best for the country as a whole;
But maybe I am the only one to be like that: different background and education
In a nutshel, i see no problem with voting for something which might hit me more than benefit me, all for a grand cause/purpose; the farmer might have voted to save his country from a (perceived) islamic onslaught via migration, not to get reduced wheat subsidies...
my 2c only as i am not a brit farmer but wanted to offer another possible side of the story..
it could also be sheer stupidity, i know...


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## CanOz (19 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Do you always vote for self interest?
> If I did I would vote liberal every time, be pro migration to get gardeners paid 5$ an hour as in the US.
> (some) people vote for a higher ideas and for what they believe is the best for the country as a whole;
> But maybe I am the only one to be like that: different background and education
> ...




Obviously they didn't vote for what was good for them now....i think they voted for what they think might be good for them longer term....I've known farmers all my life, they always voted with their pocket books, what happened this time?...populism...


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## Tisme (26 March 2018)

In reference to the topic title: this is what happens now:

http://www.ladbible.com/news/uk-new...ned-from-uk-for-life-20180325?c=1521996078350



> *Canadian Activist Speaks Out After Being Banned From UK For Posting Posters Saying ‘Allah Is Gay’*
> Stewart Perrie in NEWS
> Canadian 'activist' Laura Southern has received a lifetime ban from the UK after authorities accused her of distributing racist material.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lantern (27 March 2018)

https://www.wsj.com/...anks-1521819089





The U.K. Is Doing Just Fine, Thanks




Despite all the dire Brexit forecasts, the U.K. has had a strikingly good year. Leaving the EU may well boil down to far less, economically, than anyone thought.








ILLUSTRATION: ALEX NABAUM


By 

Fraser Nelson
March 23, 2018 11:31 a.m. ET
68 COMMENTS

For a country supposedly crawling out of the ruins of the Brexit vote, the U.K. has been having a strikingly good year so far. The number of people working stands at a record high, and income inequality is approaching a 30-year low, according to the Office for National Statistics. New orders for manufacturers are at their highest level in a generation, and employers in general are struggling to find enough staff to cope with demand. Even the (relatively new) national happiness index stands at a peak.



When Britain voted to leave the European Union in June 2016, a very different future was forecast. Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, declared that Britain had just “collapsed: politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically.” But the plague of locusts has yet to show up—which is odd, given how many experts predicted that a victory for Brexit would bring catastrophe. Now, almost two years after the vote, the picture is clearer, and there is plenty of evidence to challenge the conventional wisdom, for those with eyes to see it.



To be sure, the quality of our political drama remains dismal. If you have only been looking at Westminster, you will have only seen disaster. The leaders of the Brexit campaign hadn’t given enough thought to what they’d do if they won, so they ended up destroying each other when the time came. Theresa May, who had opposed Brexit, became prime minister and then lost her majority in a snap election last summer; she carries on, but with little authority.



Brexit capsized the entire political establishment. It was a revolution, but no new regime has emerged. And that may be no bad thing: After the pyrotechnics of the past few years, a spell of boring politics is welcome. If this is a crisis, it is one with its compensations.



In the run-up to the 2016 referendum, the International Monetary Fund predicted that a vote for Brexit would result in “sharp drops in equity and house prices” and a downturn in foreign investment. But all three measures went on to hit record levels. Barclays predicted that there would be a 0.4% contraction in gross domestic product in 2017, Credit Suisse a 1% fall, Nomura a 1.3% fall. In the end, GDP rose by 1.4%. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development warned that consumers would be shaken and cut back on their spending. They didn’t.





‘How could so many great minds get it so wrong?’

Perhaps the direst Brexit warnings came from the U.K. Treasury. The milder of its two forecasts said that the economy would “fall into recession with four quarters of negative growth,” while “unemployment would increase by around 500,000, with all regions experiencing a rise in the number of people out of work.” As it turned, economic growth accelerated after the Brexit vote. Employment rose by 560,000, and the unemployment rate now stands at a 43-year low.



How could so many great minds get it so wrong? It is a case study of unconscious bias in forecasts.



Too many economists assumed that the public would react to a Brexit vote in the same way that they themselves would: Run for the hills and wait for the sky to fall. So they made guesses—about consumer spending, investment, productivity—and entered them into computer models that came up with nonsense figures. Their only correct prediction was the 10% drop in the value of the pound, which has brought its blessings (high manufacturing exports) as well as its curses (consumer price inflation peaking at 3%).



The great exodus of financial sector workers hasn’t quite happened either. Before the referendum, banks were cheerfully saying that they’d lose no time in packing up and booking flights— Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan even donated £500,000 (about $705,000) to the Remain campaign. Deutsche Bank spoke of moving 4,000 staff out of London. But Deutsche has since calmed down and is now talking about moving a few hundred; last summer it signed a lease on a new London headquarters.



London’s resilience is easy to explain. It is perhaps the greatest financial center in the world. No other European city comes close, not just for finance but (let’s face it) for vibrancy, atmosphere, people and opportunity. What’s the point of earning more money in Frankfurt if you have to spend it in Frankfurt? London’s advantages—the time zone, the language, its fintech pre-eminence, the financial ecosystem—are still very much in place. Its biggest rivals are Hong Kong, New York and Singapore, all of which manage just fine outside the EU.



When companies sit down to do Brexit scenario planning, they find that it’s not so hard. A free-trade arrangement with the EU in the style of the North American Free Trade Agreement is the most likely outcome, in exchange for British cash (the current figure is £37 billion, paid over several decades). If the British negotiate a bad deal (the next most likely option), businesses would end up bound by the same EU rules they face now—so not much would change.







Demonstrators in a ‘March for Europe’ rally in London, Sept. 3, 2016. PHOTO: KATE GREEN/ANADOLU AGENCY/GETTY IMAGES
If the talks go wrong, or if the deal is vetoed by the parliament of Wallonia (a fate that almost blocked the EU-Canada free-trade agreement), World Trade Organization rules would kick in, so tariffs would be capped at 4.2% on average. That would cause a headache for importers, but it’s manageable. So the worst-case Brexit scenario is hardly catastrophic.



For financial chiefs, Brexit might mean doing more business out of a bureau in Dublin or Paris, but its impact probably won’t go much further. TheCityUK, a trade body, had been talking about as many as 100,000 financial jobs moving from London after a Brexit vote; it has since estimated that the toll will be more like 3,000.


The idea of foreign workers abandoning Britain has captured imaginations around the world, especially among those looking for proof of the disaster they wrongly predicted. A report in the New York Times a few months ago described an “exodus of foreign workers,” leaving British employers “in the lurch.” Another article described the departure of workers for the National Health Service, explaining that the country to which they had immigrated “no longer exists.”



But Britain very much does still exist, as does the NHS, whose ranks now include more EU nationals than ever before (trainee doctors in particular). The same goes for universities: Cambridge, for example, saw 382 EU nationals leave last year, but it saw 509 others arrive. A forthcoming survey of U.K. universities by the Spectator shows that two-thirds saw a net increase in the number of EU nationals last year. The same trend holds for the economy overall. Since the Brexit referendum, according to the Office for National Statistics, 17 EU nationals have arrived in Britain for every 10 who have left.



Still, it is true that the total number of people arriving from the EU has fallen from pre-Brexit levels—and some employers are indeed panicking. Politicians too. Nicola Sturgeon, first minister of Scotland, warned recently that half of the workers in the U.K. food-processing industry are EU nationals. The Food and Drink Federation has gone as far as to say that its members might “be unable to feed the nation”



Ms. Sturgeon exaggerated: 33% of these workers are from the EU. But, strikingly, it was just 1% in 2004. So the food-processing industry, like many others, had completely changed its business model in response to the sudden influx of workers, who arrived at a scale the U.K. government never envisaged.



‘One remarkable effect of Brexit has been a mellowing in the country’s political mood.’

The idea of their arriving at a slower rate certainly worries David Page, whose private-equity firm owns the pizza chain Franco Manca. He warned that his staff feel “bruised” by Brexit and might not hang around in Britain. Facing “bigger competition for a lesser pool of staff,” he said, the company might even “have to increase our bonus packages.” Heaven forbid! Mr. Page’s plight was reported as proof of the grim effect of Brexit on business, but the expectation of such wage boosts is precisely why a lot of people voted for Brexit. They saw it as something that would nudge the balance of power away from the bosses and back to the workers.



One remarkable effect of Brexit has been a mellowing in the country’s political mood. Concern about immigration has fallen sharply, even if immigration is still twice as high as the government’s target. Nigel Farage’s UK Independence Party, the closest Britain has to a populist movement, is dying on its feet. Not so long ago, it was Britain’s third-largest party. Now it’s a comic irrelevance, struggling to win 2% of the vote and with no chance of taking any seats in Parliament.




Compare this to the tumult in the rest of Europe. Populist parties have recently taken over half of the vote in Italy, a third of the vote in France’s presidential election, a fifth of the vote in Germany and Austria and about the same share of parliamentary seats. Brexit Britain is an oasis of stability by comparison, perhaps the most successful melting pot in the continent. It’s quite true that the U.K. Labour Party, now under new hard-left management, is a threat to the calm. But the populist specter, which is haunting so much of Europe, has been exorcised from the U.K. body politic.



To confuse populism with Brexit is to confuse a disease with its cure. As the Princeton political theorist Jan-Werner Müller has observed, populism is primarily a form of rhetoric, not a political agenda. It’s all about shaking a fist at the establishment, saying that your party alone can represent the silent majority. The reaction in the chancelleries of Europe has seemed to follow the Bertolt Brecht poem: “Would it not be easier… To dissolve the people/ And elect another?” But Britain offers an easier remedy: If you address what people are concerned about, populism goes away.







The Lloyd's of London building, Feb. 1. London’s advantages are still very much in place. PHOTO: REUTERS/SIMON DAWSON


The disorientation in the House of Commons can be seen as part of this adjustment—a sign of things going right, not wrong. A new Tory MP, Kemi Badenoch, used her maiden speech to comfort her colleagues by saying that democracy is like sex: If it’s not messy, you’re not doing it right. Her quote might owe more to Woody Allen than to Bagehot, but it makes a key point: Brexit has forced back on the agenda important themes that had been discarded, and it goes beyond the protection of the nation state and control of borders. MPs now talk a lot about the wants and needs of those who voted for Brexit—typically less-affluent people who did not go to university. A demographic that had been taken for granted has now made itself felt.



But Brexit did not need to be such a political mess. Many of the more facile claims made by Brexiteers have been disproved, at some cost to Britain’s reputation abroad. U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnunchin says that the U.K. is at the “front of the line” for a free-trade deal, but progress is discouragingly slow. It was assumed during the campaign that negotiations with Brussels would be quick and easy. Instead, we have seen slow diplomatic torture from a well-organized EU that regards its treatment of Britain as a proxy war with its own populist tormentors.



The House of Commons is full of politicians who fantasize about somehow thwarting the whole process. Ms. May needs Parliament’s permission to agree to a deal; many MPs are getting excited about making life so difficult for her that the whole project would be abandoned. But it’s a pipe dream. Michael O’Leary, the CEO of Ryanair, recently pointed out that his fellow Irishmen keep holding referendums until people give the right answer. But this is not the British way. Even if it were, support for Brexit has barely changed since referendum day, with the country still evenly split.



MORE SATURDAY ESSAYS



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If the fate of Brexit was decided by the quality of political leadership, the project would have been abandoned long ago. But this was not about a choice of government, or calculations of GDP per capita: It was about sovereignty, democracy and the idea that British laws and government should be decided only by those elected by the British public. In its way, it was the greatest-ever vote of confidence in the project of the United Kingdom, and that confidence has not gone away.



Every so often, I receive an email that gathers up news stories containing the words “despite Brexit.” It never fails to cheer me up. For example: “ Citigroup to invest in London, hire staff, despite Brexit,” or “Despite Brexit, City real estate partners reap benefits of record year.” None of this has anything to do with Brexit, which hasn’t actually happened yet. When it does, to judge by the reaction so far, it may well boil down to far less, economically, than either its supporters or enemies think.



It could be that Brexit, in and of itself, will be neither good nor bad for Britain. It will bring extra powers, and all depends on whether those powers will be used well or badly in 10 Downing Street. It’s still early days. But from what we’ve seen so far, it looks like a bet that a lot of Britons are still glad to have taken.



_Mr. Nelson is the editor of the Spectator and a columnist for the Daily Telegraph._


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## bellenuit (27 March 2018)

Lantern said:


> https://www.wsj.com/...anks-1521819089
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But they haven't left yet!


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## noirua (1 July 2018)

Prevarication and equivocation is the way the British do their negotiations. Also pretending they do not know what they are trying to achieve whilst always knowing exactly what they want to achieve. Once negotiations are agreed the other side will think they have the best deal whilst the British get the deal they originally wanted in the first place whilst saying compromises on both sides were made. 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prevaricate


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## noirua (16 August 2018)

Goes back to the 1980s and the time of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher but sums up what they really think :


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## Tisme (27 August 2018)




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## sptrawler (27 August 2018)

My observations from a recent trip, the plebs want out to stop O/S workers taking jobs, the well off love the freedom of travel that comes with an EU passport.
Just my observations, as usual, worth what they cost.


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## noirua (29 August 2018)




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## sptrawler (2 October 2018)

Well it sounds as though there could be a 'silver lining' for Australia, if the U.K get out of the EU.

Witherspoons said they will serve Aussie sparkling wine, instead of French champagne.


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## bigdog (16 January 2019)

https://www.usnews.com/news/busines...prepare-to-deliver-verdict-on-eu-divorce-deal

*UK's May Faces No-Confidence Vote After Brexit Plan Crushed*
British lawmakers have plunged Brexit into chaos and the U.K. politics into crisis by rejecting Prime Minister Theresa May's divorce deal with the European Union.
Jan. 15, 2019, at 4:53 p.m.

By JILL LAWLESS, GREGORY KATZ and RAF CASERT, Associated Press

LONDON (AP) — British lawmakers overwhelmingly rejected Prime Minister Theresa May's divorce deal with the European Union on Tuesday, plunging the Brexit process into chaos and triggering a no-confidence vote that could topple her government.

The defeat was widely expected, but the scale of the House of Commons' vote — 432 votes against the government and 202 in support — was devastating for May's fragile leadership.

It followed more than two years of political upheaval in which May has staked her political reputation on getting a Brexit deal and was the biggest defeat for a government in the House of Commons in modern history.

Moments after the result was announced — with Speaker John Bercow bellowing "the noes have it" to a packed Commons chamber — May said it was only right to test whether the government still had lawmakers' support to carry on. Opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn quickly obliged, saying May's government had lost the confidence of Parliament.

Lawmakers will vote Wednesday on his motion of no-confidence. If the government loses, it will have 14 days to overturn the result or face a national election.

Although May lacks an overall majority in Parliament, she looks likely to survive the vote unless lawmakers from her Conservative party rebel. Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party, which props up May's government, said it would support her.

"The House has spoken and the government will listen," May said after the vote, which leaves her Brexit plan on life support just 10 weeks before the country is due to leave the EU on March 29.

May promised to consult lawmakers on future moves, but gave little indication of what she plans to do next. Parliament has given the government until Monday to come up with a new proposal.

She faces a stark choice: Steer the country toward an abrupt "no-deal" break with the EU or try to nudge it toward a softer departure. Meanwhile, lawmakers from both government and opposition parties are trying to wrest control of the Brexit process from a paralyzed government, so that lawmakers by majority vote can specify a new plan for Britain's EU exit.

But with no clear majority in Parliament for any single alternate course, there is a growing chance that Britain may seek to postpone its departure date while politicians work on a new plan — or even hand the decision back to voters in a new referendum on EU membership.

"If you can't resolve the impasse here in Westminster, than you have to refer it back to the people," said Labour Party lawmaker Chuka Umunna, who supports a second referendum.

May, who had postponed a vote on the deal in December to avoid certain defeat, had implored lawmakers to back her deal and deliver on voters' decision in 2016 to leave the EU.

But the deal was doomed by deep opposition from both sides of the divide over U.K.'s place in the bloc. Pro-Brexit lawmakers say the deal will leave Britain bound indefinitely to EU rules, while pro-EU politicians favor an even closer economic relationship with Europe.

The most contentious section of the deal was an insurance policy known as the "backstop" designed to prevent the reintroduction of border controls between the U.K.'s Northern Ireland and EU member Ireland Assurances from EU leaders that the backstop is intended as a temporary measure of last resort completely failed to win over many British skeptics,

Two and a half years after the referendum, Britain remains divided over how, and whether, to leave the EU.

As lawmakers debated in the chamber, there was a cacophony of chants, drums and music from rival bands of pro-EU and pro-Brexit protesters outside. One group waved blue-and-yellow EU flags, the other brandished "Leave Means Leave" placards.

Inside, the government and opposition parties ordered lawmakers to cancel all other plans to be on hand for the crucial vote. Labour legislator Tulip Siddiq delayed the scheduled cesarean birth of her son so she could attend, arriving in a wheelchair

Some Conservatives want May to seek further talks with EU leaders on changes before bringing a tweaked version of the bill back to Parliament, even though EU officials insist the 585-page withdrawal agreement cannot be renegotiated.

Tim Bale, professor of politics at Queen Mary University of London, said May was unlikely to get changes to her deal from that could "placate her Brexiteers."

"Or, she reaches out to Labour and goes for a softer Brexit than most Brexiteers would contemplate" — but which the EU might accept, Bale said.

Frustrated EU leaders called on May to make her intentions clear on the future of Brexit.

"Now, it is time for the U.K. to tell us the next steps," said Michel Barnier, the bloc's chief negotiator.

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker — who returned to Brussels late Tuesday to deal with fallout from the vote — said the rejection of May's deal had increased "the risk of a disorderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom."

"Time is almost up," he said.

Economists warn that an abrupt break from the EU could batter the British economy and bring chaotic scenes at borders, ports and airports. Business groups expressed alarm at the prospect of a "no-deal" exit.

"Every business will feel no-deal is hurtling closer," said Carolyn Fairbairn, director-general of the Confederation of British Industry. "A new plan is needed immediately."

European Council President Donald Tusk highlighted the quagmire the U.K. had sunk into, and hinted that the best solution might be for Britain not to leave.

"If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?" he tweeted.

110


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## wayneL (16 January 2019)

May should be toast. Her "deal" would have been the worst of all worlds, virtually treason IMO.


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## sptrawler (16 January 2019)

From what I've read, which isn't much, Northern Ireland seems to be the stumbling block.
Is that correct?


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## wayneL (16 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've read, which isn't much, Northern Ireland seems to be the stumbling block.
> Is that correct?



Just one of many. May's deal wouldve made the UK a vassal state of EU, subject to all regs and laws, including the EU court, without representation, and without right of veto.


----------



## Logique (26 January 2019)

The duplicity and disingenuousness on display, on all sides of UK politics, is something to behold. Difficult now to see any negotiated outcome.

 It's pretty clear there's an establishment Remainer movement with the unstated aim of bringing on a second referendum. Imagine the response of the people, to be told they made the wrong choice, so keep voting until you get it right!

May - a Remainer in charge of a Leaver party
Corbyn - a Leaver in charge of a Remainer party


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2019)

Logique said:


> The duplicity and disingenuousness on display, on all sides of UK politics, is something to behold. Difficult now to see any negotiated outcome.
> 
> It's pretty clear there's an establishment Remainer movement with the unstated aim of bringing on a second referendum. Imagine the response of the people, to be told they made the wrong choice, so keep voting until you get it right!



Isn't that the way of the World now? The vocal minority have worked out, the majority are silent, so just shout louder. Then call any opposition extremist, it is working a treat.


----------



## noirua (17 February 2019)




----------



## noirua (17 February 2019)

Logique said:


> The duplicity and disingenuousness on display, on all sides of UK politics, is something to behold. Difficult now to see any negotiated outcome.
> 
> It's pretty clear there's an establishment Remainer movement with the unstated aim of bringing on a second referendum. Imagine the response of the people, to be told they made the wrong choice, so keep voting until you get it right!
> 
> ...




In my early days on a committee we had a vote. If the vote was 7 for and 6 against we immediately had a second vote, the second vote was 13 for and none against.  All decisions were recorded as unanimous.


----------



## bigdog (19 February 2019)

https://www.usnews.com/news/busines...-honda-to-shut-uk-plant-imperiling-3-500-jobs

*Report: Honda to Shut UK Plant, Imperiling 3,500 Jobs*
Honda is to close a car factory in western England with the potential loss of 3,500 jobs, in another blow to a British economy made jittery by Brexit.

By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press

LONDON (AP) — Honda will close a car factory in western England with the potential loss of 3,500 jobs, British media and a local lawmaker said Monday, in another blow to a British economy made jittery by Brexit.

Sky News said the Japanese carmaker is to announce Tuesday that the Swindon plant will close in 2022. Honda makes its popular Civic model at the factory, 70 miles (115 kms) west of London.

Local lawmaker Justin Tomlinson confirmed the news in a series of tweets. He said he had spoken to Honda, and the company said the decision "is based on global trends and not Brexit as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021."

He said no job losses at the plant were expected until 2021.

Honda said it could not comment "at this stage."

"We take our responsibilities to our associates very seriously and will always communicate any significant news with them first," the firm said in a statement.

The Unite trade union, which represents workers at the plant, said it was looking into the reports. Des Quinn, the union's automotive-sector national officer, said the plant's closure "would be a shattering body blow at the heart of U.K. manufacturing."

The news comes as British businesses are issuing increasingly urgent warnings about the damage being done by the uncertainty around Britain's looming exit from the European Union. The U.K. is set to leave the bloc on March 29 but has yet to seal a deal laying out the divorce terms and establishing what trade rules will apply after Brexit.

Many businesses fear economic chaos if there isn't an agreement on the rules and conditions that will replace the 45 years of frictionless trade that came with being an EU member. The uncertainty has already led many firms to shift some operations abroad, stockpile goods or defer investment decisions.

Earlier this month, Japan's Nissan announced that it would not build a new SUV at its plant in Sunderland, England, as previously planned.

Nissan said it had made the decision "for business reasons," but added that "the continued uncertainty around the U.K.'s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."

Last week Ford said that if Britain left the EU without a deal on smooth future relations, it would be "catastrophic for the U.K. auto industry and Ford's manufacturing operations in the country."

Christian Stadler, professor of strategic management at Warwick Business School, said automakers were being hit by several factors, including a cooling global economy and a European crackdown on diesel engines.

"Add the fact that the supply chain for most British-made cars crosses the Channel several times as parts are shipped back and forth, so any delays at the border after Brexit could severely disrupt the industry's 'just in time' production method, and the U.K. starts to look like a less attractive place for international companies to build cars," he said.


----------



## Logique (30 March 2019)

Could this become any more farcical 

- No deal, rejected by Commons
- T.May deal, rejected by Commons
- variations of May deal, rejected
- new referendum, rejected
- election, rejected
- remain, rejected

Never seen anything so dysfunctional or perverse. There are 17 million UK 'leave' voters that thought leave meant leave. This may not end well


----------



## IFocus (30 March 2019)

The whole thing is a cluster of contradictions ............ 

"There’s a paradox at the heart of May’s government doggedly pushing its deal through rather than putting the matter to a new public vote: *Remaining in the EU was the official policy of both Conservative and Labour parties for over 40 years, May herself campaigned for Remain in 2016, and over two-thirds of MPs also campaigned for and voted Remain. *But if Brexit is no longer, in fact, the current will of the British people, why is May still adamant about delivering it? “The answer is very simple—failing to deliver Brexit will completely destroy the Tory party,” said one senior government official not authorized to speak on the record. Already, the hard-line pro-Brexiters of the European Research Group form “a party within a party … *They already hate May for screwing up Brexit, as they see it, because she couldn’t deliver on their fantasy of all the benefits of [EU] membership without following all the rules. *But if Brexit doesn’t happen, they will scream ‘Betrayal!’ And the swing to a new, [pro-Brexit] protest party would destroy our chances of coming back to power for a generation.”"


----------



## basilio (1 April 2019)

Desperate times in England looking for desperate solutions.  Could there be a way to create some type of unifying spirit that can carry the day ? Some people are looking very hard...

* Proposal for 'healing tsar' to reunite Britain after Brexit *
Group meeting in secret also considers ideas for ‘Festival of Britain’ and live TV spectacular

Brexit staff

Mon 1 Apr 2019 06.00 BST


 
Shares
5,110
 
* Comments*
 1,062 



The Festival of Britain in 1951 on the South Bank in London. A post-Brexit festival would celebrate the achievements of the country and foreign participation would be banned. Photograph: ANL/Rex/Shutterstock
Britain needs to take special measures if it is ever to recover from the scarring social divisions exacerbated by Brexit, says a working party drawn from the country’s leading institutions.

The Guardian understands one of the initiatives that has caught the imagination of the group is the creation of the post of “healing tsar” – a unifying figure to promote a feeling of national togetherness. Several well-known figures have been sounded out for the role, although there are worries that the politicians involved will try to parachute their own preferred candidate into the job.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-healing-tsar-to-reunite-britain-after-brexit


----------



## dutchie (8 April 2019)

The BBC is a disgrace.
Check out how this presenter "interviews" someone to get their opinion on Brexit.
Absolute joke. Congrats to Tim for calling her out over and over and sticking it to her.


----------



## wayneL (8 April 2019)

dutchie said:


> The BBC is a disgrace.
> Check out how this presenter "interviews" someone to get their opinion on Brexit.
> Absolute joke. Congrats to Tim for calling her out over and over and sticking it to her.




Wow! 

That wasn't an interviewer,  that was a remain advocate.


----------



## wayneL (8 April 2019)

Journalism is dead.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2019)

dutchie said:


> The BBC is a disgrace.
> Check out how this presenter "interviews" someone to get their opinion on Brexit.
> Absolute joke. Congrats to Tim for calling her out over and over and sticking it to her.




It isn't a lot different to what happens here, unless you say what the presenter wants you to say, they talk over you. 
Actually she was possibly a bit more reasonable, than our presenters, I think I heard her take a breath. 
I think the ABC presenters could talk underwater.


----------



## noirua (6 May 2019)

War breaks out in UK as Battle of Brexit begins. The new Brexit Party is ahead in the polls for the EU Election. As it stands those who do not want to be in the EU will be voted in and those who want to be in will be voted out. Election 23 May 2019.


----------



## noirua (6 May 2019)




----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2019)

Well Boris Johnson romped it in.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07...e-minister-after-winning-tory-ballot/11335788


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2019)

Yep, it's a*fish*oil... the world now has two Donald Trumps


----------



## Logique (24 July 2019)

Theresa May's "deal" was just an abject surrender to the EU.  What self respecting patriot would have accepted it. 

Boris may not be the perfect article, but a vast improvement on the previous incumbent!


----------



## wayneL (25 July 2019)

The saltiness of the left is hilarious... you'd think the Revelation had just begun. 

Mind you it probably is the Apocalypse for Corbynov and the Komrades.


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2019)

Sounds like Boris, is getting on with business.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...n-purges-the-unbelievers-20190725-p52aj3.html
From the article:
_As more than half Theresa May’s Cabinet were summarily dismissed to the backbenches (or pre-empted the move by resigning), one political commentator said Johnson was “bringing the Brexit gang back together_”.


----------



## sptrawler (13 August 2019)

The U.S has offered to fast track trade deals with the U.K post Brexit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...uick-sector-by-sector-post-brexit-trade-deals


----------



## Knobby22 (29 August 2019)

Boris pretends to be the bumbling British aristocrat but he is no such thing, in action or in blood.

He is a fan of Sun Tze and he has completely blindsided the parliament rabble.

I think using the Queen's speech is a great decision. The UK can't keep going from crisis to crisis. It has to either leave or stay.

The Parliament still get a chance to stay within the EU by casting a vote of no confidence and forcing an election before it all goes through. This nonsense of a coup is just marketing by the inner city elite.

The danger for Boris is that the powerful Conservative Right, the inner city leftists and the Scottish may decide to work together now the die has been cast.

It is the rich and powerful owners of industry (including large shareholders), the wealthy with their overseas properties in Spain and France, and areas of the country exporting to Europe that oppose it.

The ordinary person, many who vote Labor, want to Brexit.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2019)

It is astonishing that the remoaners ask are squealing about this being anti-democratic when:

1 it is they who are trying to usurp a democratically mandated exit
2 it is entirely within convention especially at this time of the year
3 this parliamentary session is the longest since the English Civil War and is in fact well overdue.
4 only precludes three or four sitting days anyway

There really isn't that much to see here, to be honest.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

Decisive, that's what they needed, that's what they got.
As the Queen would say, " keep calm and carry on".


----------



## Logique (29 August 2019)

Proroguing parliament, aren't the furtive Remainers furious! So dishonest. 

Go Boris.


----------



## basilio (29 August 2019)

Logique said:


> Proroguing parliament, aren't the furtive Remainers furious! So dishonest.
> 
> Go Boris.




Absolutely  Logique Ol boy. 

Boris has gunned the Spitfire to max revs pushed the stick forward and seeing how fast it can go - down hill.

*Absolutely certain* it will reach unheard of speeds - just before it  hits the deck on 31st October.

This could be a great spectator sport -  except for the troublesome possibility that on Nov 1st when the plane hits the earth, when the merde hits the fan, the UK economy will follow Boris's spitfire into the fiery pits and the rest of us we will tag along for the world ride.

(Mind you Boris will have parachuted out at 3000 feet and be  hobnobbing with new best friend, the mighty narcissistic of the North THE DON !!!))

Stay liquid folks.  There could be a rush on the doors in a few weeks.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2019)

Why would any of that happen Baz?

It's  Y2K Mark 2. The only Apocolypse will be the careers of the collaborators


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Why would any of that happen Baz?
> 
> It's  Y2K Mark 2. The only Apocolypse will be the careers of the collaborators



The day the Poms start being told what to do by France, is the beginning of the end.
The same 'dicks' that said, if Trump gets in the stock market will collapse, are now all over the Brexit issue.
Hopefully one day, they get something right.
It would at least give them some credibility. IMO


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The day the Poms start being told what to do by France, is the beginning of the end.
> IMO




Did the French ever win one after Henry V at Agincourt?

It will be interesting to see the outcome when the UK exits regardless of the terms Boris is clearly negotiating with his no deal stance we will see who blinks if anyone does.

I wonder where the UK goes (if Scotland stays in the kingdom) for trade and finance once they lose their trading status with the EU one of the worlds largest trading blocks.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

IFocus said:


> I wonder where the UK goes (if Scotland stays in the kingdom) for trade and finance once they lose their trading status with the EU one of the worlds largest trading blocks.




I find it quite interesting, when it comes to Scotland and Wales.
From what I've heard, when in England, those in Scotland and Wales don't have to pay for a lot of services, that those in England do. So the English subsidies Scotland and Wales for some services.
I think may be a bit like over here, where the vocal minority and media, skew a lot of the information we are fed. They had a Scottish independence referendum in 2014, it was defeated 55% to 44%.
It would be interesting to see the U.K separated, most of the industry and the financial centre is in England.
I think if you look into the trade balances in the EU, England gives a lot more than it takes.
There is a lot of leaners and not many lifters in the EU, I think it will be very interesting if the U.K leaves.lol


----------



## basilio (29 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Why would any of that happen Baz?
> 
> It's  Y2K Mark 2. The only Apocolypse will be the careers of the collaborators




Well we won't have to wait long to find out will we son ? 
We'll see how the England goes from a seamless passage of goods and services with the EU to having to stop, be searched, be counted, be charged,  be taxed,  be visad in fact* all of the normal things that happen when you go from one country to another as distinct from being part of one economic union.*

Certainly a total waste of pixels arguing the toss with you Wayne. Let reality rule.
*No-deal Brexit: 10 ways it could affect you*
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47470864


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

basilio said:


> Well we won't have to wait long to find out will we son ?
> We'll see how the England goes from a seamless passage of goods and services with the EU to having to stop, be searched, be counted, be charged,  be taxed,  be visad in fact* all of the normal things that happen when you go from one country to another as distinct from being part of one economic union.*



Yep, probably see all the refugee camps, at the French end of the chunnel disband as well.
Germany will have to pick up the slack, supporting the P.I.G.S as well, they wont put up with that long.IMO
But just keep chanting.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

basilio said:


> Absolutely  Logique Ol boy.
> Boris has gunned the Spitfire to max revs pushed the stick forward and seeing how fast it can go - down hill.
> *Absolutely certain* it will reach unheard of speeds - just before it  hits the deck on 31st October.
> This could be a great spectator sport -  except for the troublesome possibility that on Nov 1st when the plane hits the earth, when the merde hits the fan, the UK economy will follow Boris's spitfire into the fiery pits and the rest of us we will tag along for the world ride.
> ...




I will ask you just one question Bas.
When we had the gay marriage referendum it was a yes, if the Liberal Party had said we don't like that we want another referendum, would you be as vocal to support them?
Or is it more about what you agree with, rather than democracy?

The U.K may dig in as your graphic example indicates, but I doubt it very much.

_The *UK* had an overall *trade deficit* of -£64 billion with the *EU* in 2018. A *surplus* of £29 billion on *trade* in services was outweighed by a *deficit* of -£93 billion on *trade* in goods. The *UK* had a *trade surplus* of £44 billion with non-*EU* countries_.

So in reality they can source imported goods from elsewhere, like the U.S and Australia.
I think too many are listening to echo chambers, I may be wrong, time will tell.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

Exactly SP

The EU is only 17% of the world economy and falling, The Americas are just across the pond, and then there's us and Asia,  salivating to do a FTA.

The Uk is leaving the eu,  bas,  not the f***ing planet.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Exactly SP
> 
> The EU is only 17% of the world economy and falling, The Americas are just across the pond, and then there's us and Asia,  salivating to do a FTA.
> 
> The Uk is leaving the eu,  bas,  not the f***ing planet.




Lost it Wayne.
There are (at least) two separate issues here.

1) Is UK in out of the EU ?
2) If they leave do they have some sort of orderly exit or is it a no deal break ?

One could see the decision to leave the EU as a poor decision which in the end would cost the UK dearly. However leaving on a no deal basis with scores of administrative and logistical issues unsettled  is a  different story. That's where the crash and burn comes in.

The suggestion that the problems could be a blip on the landscape ignores just how finely balanced world economic confidence is at the moment. The Don is kicking off trade wars around the world and demanding the US gets most favoured nation status from any deal it does. China is buckling. World debt is at all time highs.  The EU is not flash.

How many sparks does one need to set off a bushfire ?


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

Bazzz,   no deal brexit does not mean the end of trade between the countries of the EU and the United Kingdom for God's sake. Nobody is building an impenetrable force field,  impervious to planes,  ships,  people and common ***ing sense. 

Companies will still be able to trade with each other under World Trade Oeganisation rules under as a default arrangement as has been stated a billion times now. In fact those companies will be most desirous of trading each other as they do now... especially French and German companies. 

Over time, if a deal is not struck with the EU by Halloween,  trade deals will be struck with individual countries, if not an overall trade deal with the EU in the future. You can take to the bank,  Bazzzz... and it will be the Europeans that come cap in hand.

In fact the only thing preventing a reasonable deal being struck right at this very moment is the intransigence of the unelected European bureaucrats.

If no deal there were certainly need to be some adjustments in the short term as affairs are sorted, that's a given. Like maybe Gorganzola dolce may go uo a few pence, but the si callwd yellow hammer document is a typically unfunny progre...  Err regressive left attempt at a joke, absolutely laughable. 

You can look forward to Britain, having shed the yoke of EU (near) totalitarianism to become great again.... 

#MABA anyone?


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

Oh and here's an opinion from someone who is a friend if one of my rellies from oop nawth.


----------



## Knobby22 (30 August 2019)

Dominic Cummings appears to be the brains behind the plan and it's better than what I thought.

From Eurointellignence.

Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings have a strategy - and nobody else does. The prorogation plan is devious - or clever depending on your views. It tells us that this government will stop at nothing to frustrate the Remainers in the parliament, so long as it is legal.

The decision to prorogue parliament in the way they did dramatically reduces the options for the Remain supporters. There is now no time for legislation to force the government to extend Brexit. There is a little more than a week after the parliament convenes next week, and there will be a couple of weeks after the Queen’s Speech October 14.

Can this be stopped legally? Not really. It is not the prime minister who has prorogued the parliament. It was the Queen, who has her own legal counsel.

Perhaps the most interesting news story yesterday - amid a torrent of noisy outrage - was a story in Die Welt according to which Germany and the EU - for the first time - now actually believe that a no-deal Brexit is possible. We have been pointing out for the last three years that Germans in particular did not believe that Brexit would happen. The German media have been obsessed with the second referendum campaign and reported on little else. It also has been the overwhelming experience of the EU that the other side always blinks first. What yesterday’s decision did was to make it absolutely clear to the EU that the UK parliament won’t stop a no-deal Brexit.

There is no way the House of Commons and the Lords will finalize an anti-Brexit law before parliament breaks up. They would have to re-table the legislation in mid-October. But at that time Johnson and EU leaders would be in last-minute negotiations. If the talks succeed, parliament will get a last-minute take-it-or-leave-it vote.

There is still one option left for Remainers to pursue, but it is very risky. They could hold a vote of no confidence when they come back next week. If they win, the fixed-term parliaments act sets out a definitive procedure. The House of Commons has two weeks to secure a majority in support of another prime minister - a technical government as the Italians would call it. But this is unlikely as the opposition is hopelessly divided on this point. If that effort fails, the Commons would be suspended for new elections. But, crucially, it is the government that sets the date for them. Number Ten said yesterday that the date for elections would be November 1-5, that is after a no-deal Brexit. In other words, a no-confidence motion could actually trigger a no-deal Brexit, as the Commons would have deprived themselves of the opportunity to ratify a withdrawal agreement.

This is why the timing of the prorogation is so clever - no doubt the work of Cummings.

The political reality is that the anti-Brexit campaign has committed one strategic blunder after another, and failed to attract enough support. They lost two general elections, one European election and one referendum. The ferocity of their reaction is best explained as a sudden realisation that they lost. They did not see this coming.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Bazzz,   no deal brexit does not mean the end of trade between the countries of the EU and the United Kingdom for God's sake. Nobody is building an impenetrable force field,  impervious to planes,  ships,  people and common ***ing sense.
> 
> Companies will still be able to trade with each other under World Trade Oeganisation rules under as a default arrangement as has been stated a billion times now. In fact those companies will be most desirous of trading each other as they do now... especially French and German companies.
> 
> ...




You don't get it do you Wayne ? Totally blinded by whatever...?
Of course there will be trade in the future. On what terms we are yet to see.
But dismissing the practicalities of what is likely to happen if no deal is enacted and a host of restrictions are placed on movement is fairy tale and BS. 

Your just an echo of Boris Liar and The Don.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

Analogous historical precedents and their outcome for a No deal Brexit.

*June 22, 1893: British Battleship Sinks British Battleship Without Firing a Shot!*
https://www.historyandheadlines.com...-sinks-british-battleship-without-firing-shot*/*

*The Charge of the Light Brigade: who blundered in the Valley of Death?*
https://www.historyextra.com/period...brigade-who-blundered-in-the-valley-of-death/


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

basilio said:


> You don't get it do you Wayne ? Totally blinded by whatever...?
> Of course there will be trade in the future. On what terms we are yet to see.
> But dismissing the practicalities of what is likely to happen if no deal is enacted and a host of restrictions are placed on movement is fairy tale and BS.
> 
> Your just an echo of Boris Liar and The Don.



Oh come on you're being a child, Baz.

Why would there be restrictions? Different terms yes,  restrictions no. Unless of course the EU bureaucrats get totally petulent... but that will be worse for the EU than Britain. 

Real dumb.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Oh come on you're being a child, Baz.
> 
> Why would there be restrictions? Different terms yes,  restrictions no. Unless of course the EU bureaucrats get totally petulent... but that will be worse for the EU than Britain.
> 
> Real dumb.



FMD Wayne. Who is just dumb?
What are the normal procedures for entering and leaving a foreign country ?
What do people and businesses have to do every day when they want to travel into overseas ? Just walk through like they are going to their home ?

What are restrictions ? How about a 10k line of trucks needing to go through custom ? How about  the completion of all the customs declarations required to import and export product that arn't currently required?

Why not read the report to the government outlining the range of administrative issues that will arise in a no deal exit?

*What happens if the UK leaves without a deal?*
"No deal" means the UK will have failed to agree a withdrawal agreement.

It would mean there would be no transition period after the UK leaves and EU laws would stop applying to the UK immediately (more on that here).

The government says it is preparing for this potential situation.

*It expects some food prices could rise and customs checks at borders could cost businesses billions of pounds. (Read the government's report here).*

It has published a series of guides - which cover everything from mobile roaming on holiday to the impact on electricity supplies.

Here is a list of 10 ways you could be affected by a no-deal Brexit.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

Here's a credible analysis


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

basilio said:


> FMD Wayne. Who is just dumb?
> What are the normal procedures for entering and leaving a foreign country ?
> What do people and businesses have to do every day when they want to travel into overseas ? Just walk through like they are going to their home ?
> 
> ...



Ya mean,  like every other country on the planet? 

Like I said,  there will likely be a short period of adjustment for which preparations are well underway, thanks to this new administration. 

In fact,  I'm so positive about Uk prispwcts now,  I'm thinking of moving back into one of the two houses I own over there.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

There may be a way of exiting the EU without a no deal.
* Only one person can avert a no-deal Brexit. And that’s Boris Johnson *
Simon Jenkins
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/29/no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-parliament


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

wayneL said:


> Ya mean,  like every other country on the planet?
> 
> Like I said,  there will likely be a short period of adjustment for which preparations are well underway, thanks to this new administration.
> 
> In fact,  I'm so positive about Uk prispwcts now,  I'm thinking of moving back into one of the two houses I own over there.



Cool  Send my regards to Boris and Dom..


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

basilio said:


> There may be a way of exiting the EU without a no deal.
> * Only one person can avert a no-deal Brexit. And that’s Boris Johnson *
> Simon Jenkins
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/29/no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-parliament



LMFAO bazz. 

Vintage Grauniad petulance. You lot should really let the grown ups handle this, you know


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2019)

basilio said:


> Dom..




Yes I will consider splurging on a few bottles


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Dominic Cummings appears to be the brains behind the plan and it's better than what I thought.
> 
> From Eurointellignence.
> 
> ...



Brilliantly played. EU is dead......


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2019)

Where will the Irish border end up folks?


----------



## Macquack (30 August 2019)

IFocus said:


> Where will the Irish border end up folks?



The Irish Sea?

If Boris Johnson wants a no deal Brexit, then just ditch Northern Ireland back to where it belongs.


----------



## bi-polar (30 August 2019)

Macquack said:


> The Irish Sea?
> 
> If Boris Johnson wants a no deal Brexit, then just ditch Northern Ireland back to where it belongs.



Making Britain Great? Charles king of Ireland.


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2019)

moXJO said:


> Brilliantly played. EU is dead......



This is what the EU are worried about, if the U.K move out, those left will have a bigger burden carrying the leaners.
It wont be long, before the Germans start and complaining.IMO


----------



## bi-polar (31 August 2019)

Trump fumbled buying Denmark but China is buying PNG , Oz, Pakistan and Greece. EU may be good value after British decolonisation.


----------



## bigdog (31 August 2019)

The Age Reports today

*What’s next for Brexit? Six possible outcomes*
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...it-six-possible-outcomes-20190830-p52min.html

*London: *British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's decision to suspend Parliament next month has brought a fresh wave of consternation and confusion to Britain's already chaotic efforts to leave the European Union, while still leaving wide open the question of where Britain will end up on October 31, the day the country is scheduled to leave the bloc.

Johnson says he would rather Britain leaves with a reworked Brexit deal but, failing that, it would be out the door anyway. His opponents have sworn to remove any possibility of leaving without a deal, which they say would be economically calamitous.

Adding to the confusion, what happens next depends not just on the battle between the Prime Minister and his opponents in Parliament but also on the flexibility of the unyielding European Union leadership and, down the line, quite possibly on a British court.

Following are six of the most likely outcomes leading up to October 31.

*1. MPs take charge*

Members of Parliament don't agree about much on Brexit, but a majority oppose what they consider a destructive "no-deal" departure and would like to rule it out of bounds. By suspending Parliament for several crucial weeks, Johnson has made this hard. But he has also galvanised his opponents into action, and Jo Swinson, leader of the Liberal Democrats, hinted in a BBC interview that they may copy Johnson in using an arcane procedure — she did not specify what — to stop a no-deal Brexit. So don't count them out quite yet.

*2. Parliament's nuclear option*

If they fail to legislate against a no-deal exit, legislators can resort to the ultimate weapon: a motion of no confidence, ousting Johnson from office. Currently, they do not appear to have the votes to pull this off. But even if they did, it might not solve their problem.

The law calls for the formation of a new government within two weeks or a general election. One option might be a caretaker administration that would presumably request another Brexit delay to afford time to hold an election. The problem is opposition leaders cannot agree on a caretaker prime minister. Jeremy Corbyn, the natural choice as leader of the Labour Party, is too left-wing and, as a lifelong critic of the European Union, is distrusted by determined opponents of Brexit.

Many would prefer a more centrist figure — perhaps the former Conservative Cabinet minister Kenneth Clarke — as the caretaker. That would require Corbyn to agree to stand aside, because a no-confidence motion could not succeed without his support.

And even if it did, Johnson has another trick up his sleeve, one that his supporters have repeatedly telegraphed: he could refuse to resign and then schedule a general election for November, in effect forcing through a no-deal Brexit. Dirty pool, perhaps, it would leave deep scars in the body politic. But there is nothing in the relevant law, the _Fixed-Term Parliaments Act_, requiring the prime minister to step down immediately.

*3. A snap election*

If MPs should succeed in quickly passing legislation outlawing a no-deal Brexit before Parliament is suspended, Johnson could try to outflank them again by calling a general election. This would be risky, but he needs to hold one soon anyway because he has a working majority in Parliament of just one seat, a margin far too small for comfort for any government. If there is an election soon, Johnson is likely to run as a champion of the people against a Parliament intent on obstructing the pro-Brexit outcome of the 2016 referendum. One theory is that the election could take place October 17, allowing Johnson — if he wins — to go to the European Union summit the following day with a fresh mandate.

But there could be a significant roadblock. To call an election, Johnson would need the support of two-thirds of the House of Commons, so he would need opposition votes. The Labour Party wants an election but might demur if it thinks that, instead of a quick vote, Johnson wants to delay it until after the Brexit deadline.

*4. Leaving the EU with a deal*

No one seems to think this option has much chance. After all, Parliament voted three times against a Brexit agreement negotiated by Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May, and the EU is stubbornly refusing to reopen negotiations. But don't rule it out.

The critical date is October 17-18, when the bloc's leaders meet, providing an opportunity for last-minute negotiations (which is practically the only way things get done there). If a potentially disastrous no-deal Brexit is still a possibility, Johnson can force the heads of European leaders to get a revised deal, then force his lawmakers to get the measure passed. "Either accept my new, revised, Brexit agreement," he will say, or we are headed for the dreaded no-deal exit.

*5. A no-deal Brexit*

While it is widely thought that Johnson is using the threat of an unruly exit as a negotiating tactic, it is also possible that he actually means what he says. If European leaders offer too few concessions for his liking, he might plow ahead with a no-deal exit and, given the limited parliamentary time to stop it, he might succeed. It is, after all, the default option. That would allow Johnson to unite Brexit supporters behind him in a general election either late in 2019 or in 2020. The risk, however, is that the predictions of economic chaos after a no-deal Brexit are borne out, making an election unwinnable for him (and, if things are bad enough, possibly for the Conservative Party for years to come).

*6. The courts decide*

There are already three cases being considered against Johnson's decision to suspend Parliament. Experts think these are unlikely to succeed — although Gina Miller, an anti-Brexit campaigner, defied such predictions when she won a case against May's efforts to bypass Parliament when starting exit talks. She is trying again now.

But there may be other opportunities to go to court. If Johnson refuses to resign after losing a vote of confidence and tries to push a general election beyond the Halloween deadline, a legal challenge would be likely. Then it could be judges, not MPs, who have the decisive voice in Britain's biggest peacetime decision in decades.

228


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## bi-polar (31 August 2019)

At 93 , HM has all her marbles and may need them if her judges tell her to change her mind. 
“If you can keep your head when all about you. Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too;!”
But she's from Germany and may well take a firm hand to the whip.


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## Logique (31 August 2019)

bigdog said:


> The Age Reports today
> 
> *What’s next for Brexit? Six possible outcomes*
> https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...it-six-possible-outcomes-20190830-p52min.html
> ...



Thanks, a reasonable summary BD. I think Britons realize there will be some short term pain, but they think it's worth it for the long term gain. The ones outside of London anyway, you know like, England.

I think many saw Teresa May as Chamberlain in a pants suit. Not a high point of English diplomacy.

Three years they've waited. Three years of the Establishment's procrastination


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## Logique (31 August 2019)

Source:
World Economic Forum, in collaboration with The Financial Times - 22 Feb 2016
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/02/what-are-the-economic-consequences-of-brexit
What are the economic consequences of Brexit?
_"...Booming Britain
What proponents say
Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School argues that: “In the *long term*, Brexit will herald a *major growth-boosting period*, as the UK breaks free of the over-mighty EU with its protectionist mindset and establishes free trade and intelligent regulation aimed at UK economic interests.
In a similar vein, Leave EU, one of the two main groups campaigning for Brexit, talks of freeing Britain from the EU influence that “prevents the UK from *taking full advantage of a surging global economy* [and] capitalising on its unrivalled influence throughout the rest of the world”...."
_
And yes it's one of three scenarios discussed. But Remainers would actually have to do some research to work that out!
_
_


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## bi-polar (31 August 2019)

_"UK from *taking full advantage of a surging global economy* [and] capitalising on its unrivalled influence"_  .
That can't be today's world. Must be Sydney news:  "Walter changed the title after 940 editions on 1 January 1788 to _The Times_. _The Times_ used contributions from significant figures in the fields of politics, science, literature, and the arts to build its reputation. "


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## Knobby22 (4 September 2019)

It looks like the monied within the Conservatives are joining with the LDP and Labour to try to avoid a hard Brexit.

If an election does occur it will become a proxy for Brexit.
At the moment the polling is as below. Looks like Boris would win. Who knows these days though.


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## noirua (4 September 2019)

*Boris Johnson dealt blow as Brexit rebels vote to seize control*
https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/boris-johnson-brexit-parliament-tuesday-dle-gbr-intl/index.html


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## noirua (4 September 2019)

*Nigel Farage launches devastating attack on Remainers - 'We're going to very dark place!'*
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...on-no-deal-remainers-conservatives-parliament

*Voting Intention: Con 35%, Lab 25%, Lib Dem 16%, Brex 11% (2-3 Sep)*
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/voting-intention/all


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## Logique (4 September 2019)

A dark place indeed. The British PM can't actually call an election unilaterally, unlike here. 
So the parliament could become an utter rabble.

But if there is an election, the Conservatives would still need to reach an accommodation with Farage's Brexit Party, because it's first past the post, unlike here.  In which case the Conservatives would streak home.


----------



## wayneL (4 September 2019)

What a schmozzle. There will be some interesting internal moves in both major parties imo. Worrying times... A nationalist government and populace and a globalist parliament.

Can't see this ending well.


----------



## moXJO (4 September 2019)

Government 'center ground' seems to be evaporating around the world.


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## sptrawler (4 September 2019)

From what I'm hearing from family in the U.K, the wealthy want to stay in, the workers want out. Interesting to see the outcome.


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## noirua (4 September 2019)

It is possible for the Government to call a no confidence motion in itself if the opposition does not do so. If passed the Government can call a General Election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motions_of_no_confidence_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/not-so-fixed-term-parliaments-act


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## wayneL (4 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> A nationalist government and populace and a globalist parliament.
> 
> .


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## Knobby22 (5 September 2019)




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## wayneL (5 September 2019)

The Uk is a write off now. 

Officially a Zombie nation,  can't believe  the open treason.


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## basilio (5 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> "open treason."




Understated...  I wonder if this is how Chamberlain felt about  Winston Churchhill in 1938 when he accused him of undermining the negotiations with Herr Hitler. ?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ppeasement-terrifying-parallels-a8553686.html


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## sptrawler (5 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> The Uk is a write off now.
> 
> Officially a Zombie nation,  can't believe  the open treason.



It is strange the virtue signalers are applauding the Hong Kong demonstrators, for defending democracy and defending those in the U.K who are going against the democratic process.
Shows how much power the press has, or how easily peoples opinions are moulded.

Even Stan Grant can see the irony.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...ow-democracy-assailed-from-all-sides/11479000


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## moXJO (5 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It is strange the virtue signalers are applauding the Hong Kong demonstrators, for defending democracy and defending those in the U.K who are going against the democratic process.
> Shows how much power the press has, or how easily peoples opinions are moulded.
> 
> Even Stan Grant can see the irony.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...ow-democracy-assailed-from-all-sides/11479000



Corbyn the tosser should take it to an early election. Democracy is not being served in any way, shape, or form by these rats.


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## wayneL (5 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Understated...  I wonder if this is how Chamberlain felt about  Winston Churchhill in 1938 when he accused him of undermining the negotiations with Herr Hitler. ?
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ppeasement-terrifying-parallels-a8553686.html



Dude, these cretins have gauranteed the worst deal possible, or possibly block brexit altogether, all while the Europeans blinked, and a deal becoming possible. They have acted directly against Uk interests and against democratic process. I'd install Marshal law, have them all under arrest in the Tower and tell the Europeans to go perform an impossible autoerotic act before calling an election. 

</hyperbole>


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## chiff (6 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> Dude, these cretins have gauranteed the worst deal possible, or possibly block brexit altogether, all while the Europeans blinked, and a deal becoming possible. They have acted directly against Uk interests and against democratic process. I'd install Marshal law, have them all under arrest in the Tower and tell the Europeans to go perform an impossible autoerotic act before calling an election.
> 
> </hyperbole>



While in the Tower you could make them eat Euro sausage.(courtesy of Yes Minister)


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## basilio (6 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> I'd install "Marshal" law,




Is that like Boris putting on the sheriffs badge  going out and marshalling his deputies and deciding he is going to run the baddies out of town ?

Or perhaps Stalin deciding  there were too many traitors in his Central Committee and Army and having them executed or sent to Siberia.

Hyperbole indeed.  Settle down Wayne. There are plenty of idiots around would would make that rant and not put in the hyperbole line.


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## wayneL (6 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Is that like Boris putting on the sheriffs badge  going out and marshalling his deputies and deciding he is going to run the baddies out of town ?
> 
> Or perhaps Stalin deciding  there were too many traitors in his Central Committee and Army and having them executed or sent to Siberia.
> 
> Hyperbole indeed.  Settle down Wayne. There are plenty of idiots around would would make that rant and not put in the hyperbole line.



Haha,  that's why I put in the hyperbole line bazzzz. 

It would be antidemocratic and I would never support that, so long as democracy is served. Just shining a mirror at the left, Komrade. ;-)


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## wayneL (6 September 2019)

chiff said:


> While in the Tower you could make them eat Euro sausage.(courtesy of Yes Minister)



I'm quite partial to a Thüringer Rostbratwurst, if I ever end up in the Tower, but  a Lincolnshire or Cumberland sausage is equally nice, FWIW


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## wayneL (6 September 2019)




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## basilio (7 September 2019)

Short analysis of consequences of hard Brexit.
https://www.thebalance.com/brexit-consequences-4062999#brexit-causes


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## sptrawler (7 September 2019)

The reality, whether the virtue signalers, cum press groupies like it or not.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-election-want-no-deal-Corbyn-poll-shows.html


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## Logique (8 September 2019)

75% think the political class isn't serving the interests of the country!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-election-want-no-deal-Corbyn-poll-shows.html


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## basilio (8 September 2019)

Logique said:


> 75% think the political class isn't serving the interests of the country!
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-election-want-no-deal-Corbyn-poll-shows.html
> View attachment 97327




No surprises here. Loaded questions produced by the Daily Mail.


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## Logique (8 September 2019)

_The Guardian_ would never load questions Bas.  Neither the_ SMH_ or T_he Age_.  Nor the _ABC_ or _SBS._ 

These are all completely balanced and impartial organs


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## sptrawler (8 September 2019)

If the questions were posed as per the article below, they sound very unambiguous and to the point.
But if someone doesn't like the answers, I guess they have to blame the questions.
Not that I have been following British or U.S politics, I have enough trouble getting my head around Australian politics.
But with the U.K pulling out of the E.U, it will probably increase the load on Countries like Germany, to carry the credibility of the Euro and the trade issues to facilitate underperforming members.


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## noirua (10 September 2019)

*MPs stage protest during stormy ceremony to suspend Parliament for five weeks*
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/09/...ring-stormy-ceremony-to-suspend-parliament-f/


*Brexit party: Farage seeks election pact with Conservatives*
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...farage-seeks-election-pact-with-conservatives

*Boris Johnson still ahead in the polls - but by how much?*
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nson-still-ahead-in-the-polls-but-by-how-much

*In Brussels, the goodwill Boris Johnson fostered is slowly ebbing away
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/09/brussels-boris-johnson-eu-brexit*


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## wayneL (10 September 2019)

I wouldn't put much stock into The Grauniad's analysis @noirua. But it still could go either way.

However, the remainers have completely destroyed the chance of a satisfactory deal. But that is not actually their goal, they want to rescind Brexit altogether... Labour's unedifying hypocrisy regards an election, the second referendum, and explicit position on the matter leves no cause for doubt.

Interesting times... Nige being the wildcard.


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## IFocus (11 September 2019)

What a mess the political class from all sides have failed the nation causing deep divisions allowing fringe idiots like Farage into the game.

No no one actually knows the outcomes for leaving other than assumptions of the greatness of nationalistic virtues no plan no map what could possibly go wrong?

At any other time in British history neither Johnson or  Corbyn would be leaders of their respective parties yet here we are.

Then there is Ireland.....be dammed.


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## wayneL (11 September 2019)

No one knows the outcomes? 

LMAO 

Well,  nobody can actually predict anything about anything.  But they are leaving the EU (if it happens), not the goddam planet!!!!!

They will simply form new or modified trading relationships...  It will be a boon for Australia and NZ...  and Europe needs the Uk too.  If Brussels has a stupidity spasm and blocks trade, it will hurt them far more than the UK. 

All the other crap is just power games.


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## wayneL (11 September 2019)

Also @IFocus, Boris was always destined for leadership at some stage. And,  contrary to the hysterical accusations of being fat right,  he is actually socially quite liberal. 

Look up his voting record on these issues bro.


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## sptrawler (11 September 2019)

From what I've observed, it is only the press that are ramping the apocalypse scenario, most would be expecting a business as normal.
It will improve the job prospects in customs, for a lot of people, it may initially slow traffic at major Ports and places of entry but it isn't as though the U.K has always been in the EU or had open boarders.


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## Knobby22 (11 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've observed, it is only the press that are ramping the apocalypse scenario, most would be expecting a business as normal.
> It will improve the job prospects in customs, for a lot of people, it may initially slow traffic at major Ports and places of entry but it isn't as though the U.K has always been in the EU or had open boarders.




It will hurt some:
Those with holiday houses in Spain and able to regularly visit the continent. (e.g. most of the politicians).
Those working in the big banks where restrictions will limit European income.
Those in areas where they gain income from Europe to encourage a particular region (though this could be picked up out of Europe).
Those firms that compete in Europe. (There the ones that a deal should be for).


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## sptrawler (11 September 2019)

Hong Kong exchanges, has made a bid for the London Stock Exchange Group, $53billion Aussie.
Obviously they aren't too worried about Brexit.

*Hong Kong* makes £30 billion *bid for London Stock Exchange*
The deal would "redefine global capital markets for decades to come," HKEX CEO Charles Li said in a statement. It would reinforce *Hong Kong's* position as the key connection between mainland China, Asia and the rest of the world, HKEX said.


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## Knobby22 (11 September 2019)

Didn't they make a bid for the ASX or was it Singapore? Think it got blocked.


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## bellenuit (11 September 2019)

*Prorogation Is Unlawful: James O'Brien Finds Out What Happens Next*

*https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/prorogation-is-unlawful-what-happens-next/*


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## bi-polar (11 September 2019)

Hong Kong makes £30 billion bid for London Stock Exchange for recreational use only.
 The British found they could address the growing trade deficit through opium from Bengal, India, where they owned plantations. Opium became more plentiful, and uses of the drug changed from originally medical purposes to recreational use. The drug represented 57 percent of all imports into China and also became a major source of currency. Millions of dollars’ worth of opium were imported into the country, distributed into the interior, and sold at retail shops and smoking houses. . Americans first acquired opium from Turkey and then from India, where it was considered superior in quality.

Augustine Heard & Co. used opium as payment to Chinese brokers for tea and silk, which would be purchased by American buyers. The firm traded in the drug early in the company’s history and also served as the agent for opium and tea trade for Jardine, Matheson & Co. during the First Opium War.  John Heard explained, “The opium business is the best business we have, not only from the direct, but for the collateral profit it induces. It also affords an excellent vent for exchange from America, rendering us independent of the demand for bills.”


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## IFocus (11 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've observed, it is only the press that are ramping the apocalypse scenario, most would be expecting a business as normal.
> It will improve the job prospects in customs, for a lot of people, it may initially slow traffic at major Ports and places of entry but it isn't as though the U.K has always been in the EU or had open boarders.




If Johnson had a plan then that could possibly happen, not likely but possible, currently everyone is playing brinkmanship, lets face it the UK and Europe have never been best friends ever, the point of the EU was always to contain Germany and largely that has been successful.

I think the ramifications for the UK are wildly underestimated that's before you get to Scotland and Northern Ireland.  

Still we will find out as the Titanic sails ahead full speed into the night.

I don't think the left / right arguments apply here either the whole process is utter dysfunction.


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2019)

Guys Guys

Even with a no deal, which just means a default to WTO terms, companies will still want to do business. "No deal" does not mean "no trade" ffs. To belabour the point, the UK is not leaving the planet. Yes some trade will become unviable or less profitable, but other opportunities will come... stacks of them.

It will be a J curve Keating will be proud of.


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## Logique (12 September 2019)

England ..the new Hong Kong. Unless the pollies get their act together.

Parliament isn't respecting the will of the people, that's the issue


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## bi-polar (12 September 2019)

Mebyon Kernow's platform is Cornish nationalism. It believes that Cornwall should  be categorised  as an independent nation within the United Kingdom alongside England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland .  The Cumbrian north argues for  shaping the decisions that affect their economic and social future: to put back onto the political agenda the issue of more power and the case for an elected regional assembly.  INDEPENDENCE may be the only option left for Jersey if Brexit unfolds unfavourably for the Island, according to Sir Philip Bailhache.
The Falkland Islanders were asked whether or not they supported the continuation of their status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom. On a turnout of 92%, 99.8% voted to remain a British territory, with only three votes against.  Tony Abbott ( Warringah . Lib) voted British.


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## IFocus (14 September 2019)




----------



## IFocus (14 September 2019)




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## bi-polar (14 September 2019)

"Hey , that's a jolly good line for my clown act. Do you have some long shoes and red nose?"


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## basilio (14 September 2019)

IFocus said:


> View attachment 97412



Priceless..


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## basilio (14 September 2019)

Away from the mad loons currently in No 10 and understanding how  countries have to work with each other.

* Hopes of clean break with EU are nonsense, says ex-Brexit official *
A no-deal exit would trigger complex negotiations, argues former top DexEU civil servant

Heather Stewart Political editor

Sat 14 Sep 2019 15.00 AEST   Last modified on Sat 14 Sep 2019 15.02 AEST

Shares
404





Philip Rycroft, former DExEU permanent secretary, says the UK’s close ties with the EU cannot be undone. Photograph: Parliament TV
Claiming a no-deal Brexit represents a clean break with the European Union is “nonsensical”, according to Philip Rycroft, the former permanent secretary at the Department for Exiting the EU.

Boris Johnson has promised to extricate the UK from the EU on 31 October “come what may” – and has hinted that he could try to get around legislation mandating him to request a Brexit delay.

*The Brexit party leader, Nigel Farage, whose party trounced the Tories in May’s European elections, has been urging the PM to deliver a “clean break Brexit” by leaving without a deal.*

But Rycroft, who was the most senior civil servant at DexEU until March this year, told the Guardian a no-deal Brexit would mark the beginning of a complex series of negotiations.

“It is not a clean break: what it does is it takes us legally out of the EU. But what it can’t do is undo all of the very close economic ties that we have with the EU, on which so much of our trade as a country depends. And nor would we want to undo all of the close security ties that we have with the EU,” he said.

“And because of the importance of those ties both for the EU and the UK, it will remain hugely important to have those expressed through a formal relationship. In other words, we’re going to have to negotiate – and that negotiation on the future relationship starts with citizens, money and the border on the island of Ireland.

*“So the notion that no deal somehow means that we can turn our backs on the EU and break all our ties is just nonsensical.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-with-eu-are-nonsense-says-ex-brexit-official*


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## bi-polar (14 September 2019)

In the Treaty of London of 1839 Britain insisted on guarantees for Belgium's neutrality. At the Berlin Conference 1884, Britain had recognised the Congo Free State as the personal domain of King of the Belgians.  At one point, Britain even demanded that the 14 signatories to the Berlin Conference meet again to discuss the situation. Much of the British fighting took place on Belgian soil, around Ypres in World War I.  During World War II, the Belgian government in exile based itself in London.  Brussels is therefore obviously a colonial construct from the generosity and benevolence of HM realm with 2 aircraft carriers.  A nod from War Cabinet and Brussels is British, again.


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## wayneL (14 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Away from the mad loons currently in No 10 and understanding how  countries have to work with each other.
> 
> * Hopes of clean break with EU are nonsense, says ex-Brexit official *
> A no-deal exit would trigger complex negotiations, argues former top DexEU civil servant
> ...



Utterly stupid article.

This is perpetuating the project fear notion that "no deal" means "no trade".

FFS

That is playing to folks with an IQ close to the share of the Grauniads circulation.

Look, Bazzzz. There are intelligent argument for both sides, unfortunately, pathetic and puerile propaganda rags like the Guardian don't care to discuss them, preferring to trot out insults to the intelligence such as this article.

No deal is NOT turning their back on the EU, it is merely reestablishing UK sovereignty, which may alter some trading terms, but will in no way prevent trade at all.

In Australia's national interest, BRING IT ON, our industry will do great and even under WTO terms, European and Uk businesses will still trade as they always have done.


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## basilio (15 September 2019)

wayneL said:


> Utterly stupid article.
> 
> This is perpetuating the project fear notion that "no deal" means "no trade".
> 
> ...





What a load of shite you do sprout Wayne.
1)  The Guardian merely* reported* what was said by Phillip Ryecroft. Trashing The Guardian for doing its job is  pathetic and puerile.  Try commenting on what was said instead of throwing more poison down the well.

2) The critical point of Phillip Ryecrofts analysis was that "the clean break" line by "Do it now lemmings" is  an absolute myth.  Negotiations will have to continue on what sort of relationship the UK has with Europe. There are hundreds of trade, political and social agreements that need to be sorted out. Pretending these don't exist is an insult to the intelligence of anyone with two functioning brain cells.

The problem with lemmings you seem to follow is that they want  people to believe the UK can just  "walk away" from the EU and then  ????   somehow all the structures and agreements that underpinned the relationships between the entities stay in the air and magically still work.

This is just magical Trumpian/Johnston thinking.  Make it up, say it is so and it will work - regardless of reality.


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## wayneL (15 September 2019)

basilio said:


> What a load of shite you do sprout Wayne.
> 1)  The Guardian merely* reported* what was said by Phillip Ryecroft. Trashing The Guardian for doing its job is  pathetic and puerile.  Try commenting on what was said instead of throwing more poison down the well.
> 
> 2) The critical point of Phillip Ryecrofts analysis was that "the clean break" line by "Do it now lemmings" is  an absolute myth.  Negotiations will have to continue on what sort of relationship the UK has with Europe. There are hundreds of trade, political and social agreements that need to be sorted out.
> ...



You really just can't grasp the issues Bazzzz, if they don't agree on an arrangement, there is a default arrangement to facilitate trade that will apply. How many times must that be said before you catch on?

There is no "walking away" from the EU, just a variation of terms. Yes, there will be further negoiations, yes for years, just like what happens all over the world all the bloody time.


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## chiff (23 September 2019)

A meeting of British ex-pats in Malaga,southern Spain , yesterday.That area of Europe has the largest population of British ex-pats.They are worried that reciprocal health benefits will not apply to them when the UK exits.Wonder what else will be of detriment to them on a personal level?


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## Logique (29 September 2019)

The Remainer Establishment will be brought kicking and screaming to Brexit!







> Delingpole: *A Sinister, Nebulous Shadow Government Is Holding Brexit Hostage*
> James Delingpole, 24 Sep 2019:  https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/a-sinister-shadow-government-is-killing-brexit/
> ...Britain is now in thrall to a shadow government....Sure, the Remainer Establishment may have clawed and wriggled and squirmed its way into yet another short term victory.
> But its days are numbered.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 September 2019)

There are some powerful industrialists in the remainder camp allied with the elite of the left.
It won't be easy.


----------



## bi-polar (29 September 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> It won't be easy.



Assistant Chiefs of Defence Staff include the Defence Services Secretary in the Royal Household of the Sovereign of the United Kingdom, who is also the Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Personnel).
The Strategic Defence and Security Review 2015 missions for the Armed Forces:  Defend and contribute to the security and resilience of the UK and Overseas Territories ( Australia excluding 13 American Colonies).
The review stated the Armed Forces will also contribute to the government’s response to crises by being prepared to:   Conduct operations to restore peace and stability.


----------



## Logique (30 September 2019)

IF and Knobby, you 'Liked' this post, could you explain it to me please?
Or anything bi-polar says ..in any thread?


----------



## bi-polar (30 September 2019)

Logique said:


> please?
> ?



"Assistant Chiefs of Defence Staff include the Defence Services Secretary in the Royal Household of the Sovereign  ."
 a person who ranks below a senior person.  a leader or ruler of a people or clan.(plural).  the action of defending from or resisting attack.  all the people employed by a particular organization.  comprise or contain as part of a whole.
the action of helping or doing work for someone.   a person employed by an individual or in an office to assist with correspondence, make appointments, and carry out administrative tasks. having the status of a king or queen or a member of their family.  a house and its occupants regarded as a unit.  a supreme ruler, especially a monarch.

1975. Commander in Chief of Australian Defence Forces took over that dreadful Australian Whitlam's disgrace and scruffy disorder to bring peace and stability. Boris is a longhair and is not on.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

Why not just have an election and let the people decide?
It seems these days,it is the press and those who the press bow to, that have the mandate to rule. IMO


----------



## Knobby22 (30 September 2019)

Logique said:


> IF and Knobby, you 'Liked' this post, could you explain it to me please?
> Or anything bi-polar says ..in any thread?



I just thought it was funny and a bit alternate history and sort of made sense. Hey it's out there I know.


----------



## bi-polar (30 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> let the people decide?
> . IMO



Michel Barnier and 65 m. poms with foony accents ? No it's Boris and Michel , 1 on 1. Bring the guy to the Tower and lock him in with the PM until a winner emerges.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I just thought it was funny and a bit alternate history and sort of made sense. Hey it's out there I know.



I thought it has been a great example of how tolerant, accepting and understanding a forum can be, which IMO is the cornerstone of ASF.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Michel Barnier and 65 m. poms with foony accents ? No it's Boris and Michel , 1 on 1. Bring the guy to the Tower and lock him in with the PM until a winner emerges.



No need, just call an election.
The only reason the press isn't pushing for it, is because their masters are worried about the result.
If they weren't, the press would be screaming for an election, the only people who don't get a say are the people.lol


----------



## bi-polar (30 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> an election.



Who for ? The EU negotiator?


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Who for ? The EU negotiator?



Either him or the bi polar bear.


----------



## bi-polar (30 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Either  or.



Trump can't do Kim Jung Un and poms can't do EU.  That Swedish girl is the only hope.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Trump can't do Kim Jung Un and poms can't do EU.  That Swedish girl is the only hope.



We are doooomed.


----------



## bi-polar (1 October 2019)

Things are becoming clearer with funding structures being expedited:
https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/09/30/a-royal-bitcoin-request-scammers-pray-on-britains-brexit-fears/
Funds are to be forwarded with a contract at 30% /3 months to follow after receipt .


----------



## IFocus (1 October 2019)

Logique said:


> IF and Knobby, you 'Liked' this post, could you explain it to me please?
> Or anything bi-polar says ..in any thread?




Bi-polars mix of  intellect/art/humour  is next level to me at least and a welcome change from the never ending left right BS arguments, if your mind relies on thinking within context and boundary's then its not going to resonate, (thats not a slur BTW).


----------



## Knobby22 (12 October 2019)

Another mass stabbing by Islamic terrorists.
The left/right coalition are dreaming thinking the average person will vote to remain.


----------



## Logique (18 October 2019)

What might just happen now: is that the British people (which doesn't include London) get what they want - Brexit!  Boris got a Deal, not a very good one, but still, a Deal.

If you don't like it Jeremy Corbyn, vote 'No Confidence' in the Conservatives, dissolve the Parliament, and face the people in a General Election! If you dare..

I think the British people want Boris to stare them down (the Remainer elites).


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2019)

Logique said:


> What might just happen now: is that the British people (which doesn't include London) get what they want - Brexit!  Boris got a Deal, not a very good one, but still, a Deal.
> 
> If you don't like it Jeremy Corbyn, vote 'No Confidence' in the Conservatives, dissolve the Parliament, and face the people in a General Election! If you dare..
> 
> I think the British people want Boris to stare them down (the Remainer elites).



Not many chanters or ranters having much to say, cat must have got their tongue, or they have moved on to the next person they want to denigrate, brow beat or bully into submission.


----------



## wayneL (18 October 2019)

I don't think the last shoe in this game has dropped.


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2019)

wayneL said:


> I don't think the last shoe in this game has dropped.



I agree with you, but at least the current detente has reduced the personal attacks, well on ASF anyway. lol
The lack of left wing media criticism, appears to have reduced the anti Boris postings, maybe self generated informed opinion is more difficult to construct.
The last cut and paste ill informed regurgitation, was over a month ago, so obviously the target has moved.


----------



## IFocus (19 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you, but at least the current detente has reduced the personal attacks, well on ASF anyway. lol
> The lack of left wing media criticism, appears to have reduced the anti Boris postings, maybe self generated informed opinion is more difficult to construct.
> The last cut and paste ill informed regurgitation, was over a month ago, so obviously the target has moved.




SP the harshest critics came from the Torys (Boris mates....not) not from the left, Corbyn is not the answer same as Boris.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2019)

Agree with you IFocus, it is just he has copped a huge bashing along with Trump, not that I follow the politics of either, it is great to see the media have to eat humble pie occasionally.
I just hope it goes to an election, that puts it to bed forever.


----------



## bellenuit (20 October 2019)

*U.K. Lawmakers Disrupt Boris Johnson’s Brexit Plan*
What was supposed to be a dramatic up-or-down vote on the British prime minister’s deal with Brussels fizzled amid parliamentary maneuvers.









LONDON — Just as Britain appeared on the cusp of a history-making, up-or-down vote on its long-delayed departure from the European Union, the British Parliament struck an impasse on Saturday as lawmakers adopted a measure that delayed a vote on Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal with Brussels.

The turbulent events left Mr. Johnson’s agreement in limbo, legally obliging him to seek yet another extension for Britain’s departure, which he had once vowed never to do. It was the latest twist in a debate that has convulsed the country ever since the British public voted in 2016 for a divorce from the European Union.

On a dramatic day in which lawmakers debated while enormous crowds of anti-Brexit protesters marched outside the Houses of Parliament, Mr. Johnson implored lawmakers to approve his agreement, which would pave the way for Britain to leave the European Union at the end of the month.


Sorry, the rest is behind NYT subscription firewall.


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2019)

There is no way the political class and establishment will let the people decide

Brexit, Trump, Catalonia, Hong Kong incredible how these common people dare to tell us how to rule them


----------



## wayneL (20 October 2019)

Sheer speculation here.

A WTO exit on Oct could still happen and may actually be the goal of Boris and Cummings. I still have a few contacts inside the Illiberal Undemocrats over there (**of which to my eternal shame I was a member of) and nobody really knows WTF is going to happen.

**We were Orange Bookers and regularly told by the Marxist branch of the party to **** off and join the Tories.


----------



## Logique (21 October 2019)

If Boris and the Tories have the _cohones_ for it, they can bluster their way through. The people are with them. Apart from London.

How? By daring UK Labour & Remainer fellow travellers to vote "No Confidence" in the government, hence calling on a general election. Which as we have seen, the elites will shrink from..


----------



## Knobby22 (23 October 2019)

Well they got it through, sort of..
The opposition still want a delay and be able to review.

Boris wants to use this to proceed immediately or force and election:
The Tory's who quit the party will be seeking new careers. I reckon the opposition will try their hardest to not let an election occur however surely the Prime Minister can call one? Actually not, they created fixed terms parliament so need 2/3rds majority to call an election. Unintended consequences.


----------



## moXJO (23 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Well they got it through, sort of..
> The opposition still want a delay and be able to review.
> 
> Boris wants to use this to proceed immediately or force and election:
> The Tory's who quit the party will be seeking new careers. I reckon the opposition will try their hardest to not let an election occur however surely the Prime Minister can call one? Actually not, they created fixed terms parliament so need 2/3rds majority to call an election. Unintended consequences.



Britain is a train wreck. Democracy died there a while back.


----------



## noirua (26 October 2019)

*Growing risk of no-deal in six days after Macron blocks Brexit extension*
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...fter-macron-blocks-brexit-extension-h5fxtprqr


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2019)

noirua said:


> *Growing risk of no-deal in six days after Macron blocks Brexit extension*
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...fter-macron-blocks-brexit-extension-h5fxtprqr



Wow the French helping the British, that's a turn up.


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2019)

Well it is clear to see some are very, very, very disappointed.
Interesting that the old saying"if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing", seems to be a thing of the past with the media.
Just my opinion.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...ection-for-boris-johnson-20191107-p53881.html

It would have been much easier for the reporter, to just say, the people will decide at the election.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 November 2019)

Gee, Corbyn is a Marxist, look at some of his policies... assuming Mish is telling the truth, I find it as bit hard to believe.
Also if you go to the site linked below you can see the Liberal Democrats are doing very well in the polling.


In a forced distribution scheme, Labour Proposes Workers to Get 10% of Company Shares

Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, and John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, want big companies to give employees a 10% stake in their business and a seat on their boards.
They plan to renationalize rail, water, energy and Royal Mail, increase corporation tax and the minimum wage, and extend workers’ rights.
Companies doing business with the government will have bosses’ pay capped and there will be a tax on financial transactions.
Corbyn proposes sheltering the homeless and forcing homeowners to sell their homes to renters at a "reasonable" price, set by the government.

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...soul-of-great-britain-c3DdQcPeU0a-PlIoIAAIhw/


----------



## qldfrog (8 November 2019)

Yes he is a true blue communist a la polpot...i know it sounds incredible, worse still, he has support to become leader
Once 50pc of voters pay no tax, it is an auction game


----------



## Logique (9 December 2019)

I cannot believe the British people would be so foolish as to elect an alleged Marxist and alleged anti-Semite.  I would be _very_ concerned about my UK-based investments should this come about.

*Boris, Brexit or Bust*
James Allan, Quadrant Online: https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/12/boris-brexit-or-bust/
On 9th December 2019, James allan wrote:
..._On December 12 Britain goes to the polls....at stake is whether the British political class will *honour the 2016 referendum* result *or prevaricate and stall its way to over-ruling the wishes of the majority* in favour of those of the Establishment..._


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2019)

Buying the working class vote is always a gamble, most politicians gamble the working class is stupid and it is that which usually brings about their undoing.
Social media has brought about an enlightening of sorts to normal people, where they can ask questions anonymously and receive a multitude of different opinions, rather than just relying on the biased media.


----------



## wayneL (9 December 2019)

Logique said:


> I cannot believe the British people would be so foolish as to elect an alleged Marxist and alleged anti-Semite.  I would be _very_ concerned about my UK-based investments should this come about.
> 
> *Boris, Brexit or Bust*
> James Allan, Quadrant Online: https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/12/boris-brexit-or-bust/
> ...



The only reason UK labour is anything above 5% in the pols is because of their version of the mediscare campaign and class warfare.

The Corbynated Chicken deserves no more than that.


----------



## wayneL (10 December 2019)

I ****ing love this!


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

Exit polls predicting a landslide to Boris.

If accurate, UK politics is about to be fun again.


----------



## dutchie (13 December 2019)

Poms vote for Brexit (again).


----------



## Knobby22 (13 December 2019)

Antony Green who is working with the BBC as well as the ABC on this has already called it with all logic explained... what a legend. The BBC will want him back.

Conservative clear victory. Boris has ultimate victory. I think he was a little lucky to have Corbonne opposing him but he is the politicians answer to popularity and has done it again.

Good result for UK and should be good for Australia.


----------



## Logique (13 December 2019)

86 seats majority is the latest estimate, but only on exit polling.

World markets have jumped on the news - including the UK FTSE - which is significant.


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

UK Labour, like our own Labor, must now take the opportunity to purge theI must now take the opportunity to purge the marxists and postmodern radicals if they want to stay relevant going forward....

.... Oh and he anti-semites as well.


----------



## qldfrog (13 December 2019)

Wayne: Marxist and anti-Semitic go together, ask Soljenitsyne.
Corbyn was a communist who was still not aware that the USSR was gone.
In a selfish way, and with no close relative in the UK, i nearly wish a Corbyn win,  tgat could have quickly demonstrated..i think within 2 y, what socialism is.people gave forgotten so the creepy move back in the west.
On the other hand, would any of the left have learnt?
So probably better for everyone as is, and definitively for the UK.
I wish them well


----------



## chiff (13 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Wayne: Marxist and anti-Semitic go together, ask Soljenitsyne.
> Corbyn was a communist who was still not aware that the USSR was gone.
> In a selfish way, and with no close relative in the UK, i nearly wish a Corbyn win,  tgat could have quickly demonstrated..i think within 2 y, what socialism is.people gave forgotten so the creepy move back in the west.
> On the other hand, would any of the left have learnt?
> ...



I do not follow UK politics much or their leaders,but in what way is Corbyn anti-semitic?I hope it is not just because he supports the Palestinians and not Israel?


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

Jo Swinson, Anna Soubry, Dom Grieve, et al. 

All had their anti democratic 4sses kicked out.

Democracy is sometimes beautiful.


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

chiff said:


> I do not follow UK politics much or their leaders,but in what way is Corbyn anti-semitic?I hope it is not just because he supports the Palestinians and not Israel?



Same thing, but The Corbynated Chicken has always been overtly anti Jew (and pro IRA, FYI)


----------



## Logique (13 December 2019)

_15m ago_ (16:21 AEDST)
_The Guardian_: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tories-corbyn-boris-johnson-results-exit-poll
_The BBC has just released its updated forecast for the final result. Here are the numbers..
Conservatives: 362
Labour: 199 
SNP: 52 
Lib Dems: 13 
Plaid Cymru: 4 
Greens: *1* 
Conservative majority: *74 *_


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

It is a matter of some embarrassment that I used to be a member of the lib dems when I was in the UK. But, my god, it was a totally different party back then... at least my faction of the party was.

Jo swinson losing her seat is a matter of absolute satisfaction for me.

Awesome stuff!


----------



## Logique (13 December 2019)

chiff said:


> I do not follow UK politics much or their leaders,but in what way is Corbyn anti-semitic?I hope it is not just because he supports the Palestinians and not Israel?



In the NY Times no less: 
*A Vote for Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party Is a Vote for Anti-Semitism  *_New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/12/opinion/uk-elections.html  By Bret Stephens, Opinion Columnist, Dec. 12, 2019

...To support Labour is to say anti-Semitism wasn’t your deal-breaker..._


----------



## qldfrog (13 December 2019)

chiff said:


> I do not follow UK politics much or their leaders,but in what way is Corbyn anti-semitic?I hope it is not just because he supports the Palestinians and not Israel?



No no was surprised as well but seems to run deeper than a just Israel Palestinian
Own members and mp trying to fight it within the labour party at the time
I think it is this anticapital cliche of the cigar smoking rich Jew that Hitler and Stalin used.remember he was a dinosaur.
Do your own searches even using the guardian, i am sure you will find enough to make your mind


----------



## IFocus (13 December 2019)

chiff said:


> I do not follow UK politics much or their leaders,but in what way is Corbyn anti-semitic?I hope it is not* just because he supports the Palestinians and not Israel?*




Thats how I understand it besides that  Corbyn was always un-electable I thought so much so the grand clown 3rd rate minister is PM, lower and middle class will now get a right Tory rogering I expect.


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Thats how I understand it besides that  Corbyn was always un-electable I thought so much so the grand clown 3rd rate minister is PM, lower and middle class will now get a right Tory rogering I expect.



Well, at least it will be more entertaining being rogered under Boris than under the Corbynated Chicken.

At least the market, and the pound are happy about it.


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2019)

Just another example of the press ramping their own opinion and not taking any notice of the mainstream opinion.
The result shows what the silent majority wanted.


----------



## moXJO (13 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Just another example of the press ramping their own opinion and not taking any notice of the mainstream opinion.
> The result shows what the silent majority wanted.



Mainstream media has been reporting complete bs  for a while. This election is one more in a long list of them getting it wrong.


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2019)

Maybe the press will start and report sensible outcomes, rather than extreme sensational outcomes they pray for, then the vocal minority can expect reasonable outcomes.
Rather than be constantly dissappointed.


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2019)

The left still aren't learning the lesson the public is trying to teach them.... Antifa(sic) rioting, leftist politicians with extra salty sore losing bitchfests, Corbynov refusing to accept responsibility (sound familiar?), protests at the election result(????).

What the Hell?


----------



## Knobby22 (14 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> The left still aren't learning the lesson the public is trying to teach them.... Antifa(sic) rioting, leftist politicians with extra salty sore losing bitchfests, Corbynov refusing to accept responsibility (sound familiar?), protests at the election result(????).
> 
> What the Hell?



Tribal behaviour. Pathetic.
The people have voted. Thwy need to live with it.


----------



## qldfrog (14 December 2019)

I noted the Hillary ism in the speech by the liberal democrat young woman leader..when i try to break the glass ceiling i get hurt by falling shards
.well lady.maybe just maybe it could also be you or your policies? never entered your mind?
We all know Johnson was elected because of fake news and Russian interference, maybe a bit of Brasilian ?
Not deplorable, pathetic
Following a now well trodden leftist path of self deception from day one


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> We all know Johnson was elected because of fake news and Russian interference, maybe a bit of Brasilian ?
> Not deplorable, pathetic
> Following a now well trodden leftist path of self deception from day one



This seems to be the norm now- create turmoil so the government and public is constantly distracted. Given all the funded organizations whose  only purpose is to spread bs (think sleeping giants etc). I think they should become part of the focus of some of the fake political news that gets about.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Tribal behaviour. Pathetic.
> The people have voted. Thwy need to live with it.



The rich never like the will of the masses winning over. 
Now the cheap OS labour has to get permission to enter and the rich have to go through immigration for their weekend jounts to the continent.
Lifes a bitch.lol


----------



## Knobby22 (14 December 2019)

I read that the campaign was run by a young Aussie guy who also ran ScoMos campaign.
The tactic was to be on the right on social issues but more central on economic issues.
Also I guess keep it simple.

Labour completely stuffed this. Managed to lose their core voters, blue collars.
It's a bit like what happened at our election  but on steroids.


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Labour completely stuffed this. Managed to lose their core voters, blue collars.
> It's a bit like what happened at our election  but on steroids.



Exactly.

I would go as far to say that blue collar workers are no longer core Labo(u)r Party constituents.

It seems to me that the Labo(u)r movement have completely forsaken the working class in favour of middle-class identitarians and radicals... to the point that they are no longer entitled to be called a labour movement.

The working class have become the new conservatives in the truest sense of the word. It will be interesting if the UK conservative party will be able to retain those voters going forward or whether their votes are only on loan in order to give the postmodernists a kick in the 4ss.


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Labour completely stuffed this. Managed to lose their core voters, blue collars.
> It's a bit like what happened at our election  but on steroids.




It makes you wonder how delusional they actually are. We have had elections play out in similar fashion over the world. Are they that arrogant that they can't see that the majority don't give a fig about virtue signalling?


----------



## qldfrog (14 December 2019)

And they never learn: t
ABC front page link on the UK election analysis
I quote:
" Opportunist, chameleon, showman or charlatan: What will Boris Johnson do next?
ABC NEWS"
No doubt their unbiaised ABC ..my taxes....
I am going to open the guardian just for the fun of it


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> And they never learn: t
> ABC front page link on the UK election analysis
> I quote:
> " Opportunist, chameleon, showman or charlatan: What will Boris Johnson do next?
> ...



Its crazy stuff. 
Media seem to think they are kingmakers. They are in a way.... just not for the guy they are backing.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2019)

Eventually the penny will drop with media management, then they will come out of their cocoon and sack half of their reporters who are losing them circulation.
Not really, it will never happen and they will go broke.lol


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2019)

A little bit of encapsulation:


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Labour completely stuffed this. Managed to lose their core voters, blue collars. It's a bit like what happened at our election  but on steroids.




I think the point that's missed is that the average "blue collar" worker is somewhat driven to improve their circumstances. They don't see themselves ending up as CEO but they do see themselves ending up as one of the shareholders. They don't see themselves owning a mansion and a Rolls Royce but they do see themselves moving to a decent house in a decent suburb and owning a late model Toyota. Etc. They don't see themselves never progressing from where they are today.

In short they want a credible path to improvement and a reason to want to achieve it and a point seemingly forgotten is that blue collar workers are often not that far removed from business people in terms of how they operate. They get things done, they find ways around problems and they make money doing so. That's a capitalist approach far more than it's a socialist one.


----------



## Logique (15 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I read that the *campaign* was run by a young *Aussie* guy who also ran ScoMos campaign.
> The tactic was to be on the right on social issues but more central on economic issues.
> Also I guess keep it simple.
> Labour completely stuffed this. Managed to lose their core voters, blue collars.
> It's a bit like what happened at our election  but on steroids.



Mark Textor I think, of Crosby-Textor Group, so yes an Aussie link. Those guys know their stuff.  Apparently they warned the Conservatives against proroguing Parliament, but were ignored at the time.

As for earlier comments from others about the blue collar workers getting rogered - they voted Conservative _en masse_, swinging the election. The rogering they _were _getting was from the EU open borders policies.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 December 2019)

Following on your comments Smurf.
They also wanted Brexit.(like Logique intimated).

The English Consevatives are actually real Conservatives and so are a lot closer to looking after everyone rather than just the wealthy aka Republicans however it relies a lot on the Prime Minister of the time.

Boris will want to stay sweet with the people so I think we will see a moderate government. Probably last a few terms.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think the point that's missed is that the average "blue collar" worker is somewhat driven to improve their circumstances. They don't see themselves ending up as CEO but they do see themselves ending up as one of the shareholders. They don't see themselves owning a mansion and a Rolls Royce but they do see themselves moving to a decent house in a decent suburb and owning a late model Toyota. Etc. They don't see themselves never progressing from where they are today.
> 
> In short they want a credible path to improvement and a reason to want to achieve it and a point seemingly forgotten is that blue collar workers are often not that far removed from business people in terms of how they operate. They get things done, they find ways around problems and they make money doing so. That's a capitalist approach far more than it's a socialist one.



Spot on smurf, as my mate the garbo says, it is ok for these people to promise the World, but it is the working men and women that have to pay for it.
Pretty simple really, as happened here Corbin was offering to increase hand outs, the blue collar workers are getting fed up with copping the pineapple.
Well thats what the grass roots are saying, from what I have heard.
A quick look at the UK voting map on page 12 of the AFR, pretty well says it all.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2019)

So from the SMH,this article today.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...tain-into-little-britain-20191215-p53k3p.html
If it all works out for the best for the U.K, I wonder if the SMH will print her letter of congratulations, to Boris and those who voted to exit the E.U?
I doubt her opinion will change, here is the closing line from the article:
_*I’ll keep fighting Johnson’s hard-right vision for Britain and standing up for a United Kingdom that is inclusive, welcoming and open*_.

Obviously not as it was a landslide, therefore most are happy with the policies of  those elected, it is a shame that the fanatics have to make disruption and hate a life's ambition.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 December 2019)

Well she is a Labour member of Parliament. Of course she is taking it hard and it's her job to oppose. Calling her a fanatic is a bit rough.

I have found the Age/SMH coverage to be very good. 
Always good to hear all sides.

If I only want to read one side only I would buy the Australian/Guardian.


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2019)

Not fanatics? Well they certainly are deluded. Many have been claiming the Conservatives don't have mandate  and tha Boris is literally the second Hitler!

My favourite is that Britons are all racists and misogynists lol. Jo Swinson claimed misogyny for losing her seat, not that the party she led should be renamed the Illiberal Undemocrats (my former party when in UK if you all remember)

Even the leftist BBC journos have been incredulous at some of these insane responses.


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2019)

This


----------



## IFocus (16 December 2019)

A problem with the current political narrative is the effective use by conservative parties dog whistling of racism and nationalism and the failure of the left to be able to counter argue the case.

The US Republicans have turned it into a art form so much so US Latinos vote Republican.

My own thoughts are you cannot counter argue such is the inbuilt human code for family, clans and tribalism.

Every one is a racist and everyone is a nationalist oi oi oi.

Trump used this to great effect, Mexican rapist, Brexit was largely about immigrates, Coalition have longed used boat people remember the Tampa, its a very effective political tool so much so the north of the UK voted for Boris completely against their best interests.

I understand peoples views in northern England but rolling the dice thinking the Tories will GAF about the north of England when they know it will revert back to Labor shows a lot about how Corbyn was a failure but also there s a lot more going on.

BTW some of the comments about the left here is laughable.....IMHO


----------



## Humid (16 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> A problem with the current political narrative is the effective use by conservative parties dog whistling of racism and nationalism and the failure of the left to be able to counter argue the case.
> 
> The US Republicans have turned it into a art form so much so US Latinos vote Republican.
> 
> ...




It’s a great distraction from Scummo and the rusted on lot


----------



## Humid (16 December 2019)

Look at all the threads lighting up here about brexit and Trump
Nothing but the sound of crickets on the local mob who the majority here no doubt elected
Bash the left elsewhere should make you feel better about your choices lolz


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2019)

Actually using this forum as a yardstick, the bashing has been extremely one sided, with regard Trump and Johnson.


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> A problem with the current political narrative is the effective use by conservative parties dog whistling of racism and nationalism and the failure of the left to be able to counter argue the case.
> 
> The US Republicans have turned it into a art form so much so US Latinos vote Republican.
> 
> ...



This is why you fools will continue to lose elections.

...and this comes from one of your own misguided luvvies, Komrade.


----------



## PZ99 (16 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I would go as far to say that blue collar workers are no longer core Labo(u)r Party constituents.
> 
> ...



No way.  The blue collar workers are the apolitical swinging voters who deliver Govts from both sides of the political arena. 

They voted Howard in - they voted Howard out. They voted Rudd in - they voted Rudd out.

They aren't attached to any political persuasion. They outsmart the sycophants every time.


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> No way.  The blue collar workers are the apolitical swinging voters who deliver Govts from both sides of the political arena.
> 
> They voted Howard in - they voted Howard out. They voted Rudd in - they voted Rudd out.
> 
> They aren't attached to any political persuasion. They outsmart the sycophants every time.



Yep I'll go along with that, but the postmodernists will have to depostmodernize themselves and become a true Labour Party again


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Look at all the threads lighting up here about brexit and Trump
> Nothing but the sound of crickets on the local mob who the majority here no doubt elected
> Bash the left elsewhere should make you feel better about your choices lolz



I whinge about them all the time. But if I had to pick between authoritarian left, or right- then it will be the right.


----------



## IFocus (17 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Look at all the threads lighting up here about brexit and Trump
> *Nothing but the sound of crickets on the local mob who the majority here no doubt elected*
> Bash the left elsewhere should make you feel better about your choices lolz





Yep bankers breaking federals laws (only 25 million times) and get caned by picking up a lazy $2.7 mil on the way out bankers doing it tough how will he survive.

Unions fight for safety and protection of workers rights (note Marxists left wing extremists like nurses and firefighters) and the Coalition go after them..... what do you get here outrage maybe......nope fcking crickets until some unheard of fringe MP, feminist drop kick says some thing stupid.

The great swindle goes on carefully camouflaged by inflaming cultural outrage


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Unions fight for safety and protection of workers rights



Ah yes, the good old days, when the Labor Party was full of workers that came up from the rank and file, before they were hijacked by the intellectual ladder climbers.
It really is strange, that now Labor gets the major swings toward them in the affluent suburbs, obviously they are getting the message over to some.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Look at all the threads lighting up here about brexit and Trump
> Nothing but the sound of crickets on the local mob who the majority here no doubt elected
> Bash the left elsewhere should make you feel better about your choices lolz



Well, I didn't vote for Scomo, and still dissatisfied with the Liberals. Probably will never vote for them again.

But I thank God every single day your mob of wreckers didn't get in. We got bad, instead of freakin' disaster.


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> We got bad, instead of freakin' disaster.



Can not agree more.The comments in the guardian after the win of Boris were as pathetic as predictable
He did not win, we had more votes, he is illegitimate, not kidding have a look yourself.
In my older youth, the Pravda was the model of propaganda, every one was laughing at how dumb it was,jokes etc
You read the guardian or watch the ABC and the China Daily looks like a virtuous model of information


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Yep bankers breaking federals laws (only 25 million times) and get caned by picking up a lazy $2.7 mil on the way out bankers doing it tough how will he survive.
> 
> Unions fight for safety and protection of workers rights (note Marxists left wing extremists like nurses and firefighters) and the Coalition go after them..... what do you get here outrage maybe......nope fcking crickets until some unheard of fringe MP, feminist drop kick says some thing stupid.
> 
> The great swindle goes on carefully camouflaged by inflaming cultural outrage



MPs both sides have sold out. Pretty sure labor mps were hooked onto Chinese money as well.
There was no fricken way shortens labor was electable.

Its been a long time since unions were on the workers side. All the heads are bloody lawyers. Fricken chardonnay problems.

Theres a reason why leftists government is losing ground across the world. Its because they are delusional. Nobody gives a frig about gender awareness or free handouts to lazy sobs, or any of the other commie bs they are sprouting. The workers have reached the limit. People want to get ahead not pay for other peoples problems. And they want govt to get out of their lives

I'm not saying thats what the coalition brought, but they won the unwinnable election for a reason.


----------



## Humid (17 December 2019)

Union sites have better money and conditions also being able to bring up safety concerns without the fear of the bullet


----------



## Humid (17 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Well, I didn't vote for Scomo, and still dissatisfied with the Liberals. Probably will never vote for them again.
> 
> But I thank God every single day your mob of wreckers didn't get in. We got bad, instead of freakin' disaster.




So you voted Greens?


----------



## Humid (17 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> MPs both sides have sold out. Pretty sure labor mps were hooked onto Chinese money as well.
> There was no fricken way shortens labor was electable.
> 
> Its been a long time since unions were on the workers side. All the heads are bloody lawyers. Fricken chardonnay problems.
> ...




This is the crap I usually hear from people who take the money and conditions but are too tight to pay their fees
Or “I used to be in the union but they screwed me”


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2019)

Humid said:


> So you voted Greens?





Hell would freeze over first, and living in Qld, not likely to happen anytime during this current Holocene epoch... or even during the Quaternary!


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2019)

Humid said:


> This is the crap I usually hear from people who take the money and conditions but are too tight to pay their fees
> Or “I used to be in the union but they screwed me”



I did  jobs for a few of the top rankers in the unions. And I know what a few of the shtbags got up to.

Never had a wage job. I was taught by family and always had my own company. 

Unions barely look after their own members let alone anyone else. Theres a lot of those stories of "unions screwed me" as well. Unions won't go against the big companies that feed em. Hows those membership numbers going?


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2019)

It is interesting that the share market and British Pound have rallied since the election, obviously the doom and gloom prophecies by the media, weren't taken on board by the markets.


----------



## Macquack (17 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I did  jobs for a few of the top rankers in the unions. And I know what a few of the shtbags got up to.
> 
> Never had a wage job. I was taught by family and always had my own company.
> 
> Unions barely look after their own members let alone anyone else. Theres a lot of those stories of "unions screwed me" as well. Unions won't go against the big companies that feed em. Hows those membership numbers going?



You back in business Moxjo, or is this just sour grapes?


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

Macquack said:


> You back in business Moxjo, or is this just sour grapes?



Trolling, or real life?


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Unions barely look after their own members let alone anyone else. Theres a lot of those stories of "unions screwed me" as well. Unions won't go against the big companies that feed em. Hows those membership numbers going?



I'd say those membership numbers are at record lows. 
Which just happens to co-inside with rampant wage theft from big and small companies  

Seems to me the employers are even better at screwing the employees than the unions are.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I'd say those membership numbers are at record lows.
> Which just happens to co-inside with rampant wage theft from big and small companies
> 
> Seems to me the employers are even better at screwing the employees than the unions are.



Fair work Australia sorts it out fairly quick. Hospitality is notorious for underpayment. But its not that hard to make a complaint. 

Workcover are some of the worse fkers you will deal with. They try and grind you into the dust.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Fair work Australia sorts it out fairly quick. Hospitality is notorious for underpayment. But its not that hard to make a complaint.
> 
> Workcover are some of the worse fkers you will deal with. They try and grind you into the dust.



Easier to get your union to deal with it - so I guess that's the difference


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Easier to get your union to deal with it - so I guess that's the difference



Not always...
More than a few stories of people I directly know. One in particular stands out, injured himself at work. Then a few of the others engaged in bullying while he was on light duties. Really weird stuff like deleting work off his computer and other crap. He actually caught them on camera as the higher ups wouldn't believe him. 
Union was brought in and they left him out to dry (no surprises there). He ended up with severe depression on top of it all. Wife found him strung up in the garage about a year back. 
There was zero support from the union. Whole thing was just sickening on all fronts from employer-employees-union-workcover. 
Another mate is going through workcover claim at the moment. Employer has just claimed responsibility but workcover have literally tried to grind him into the dust.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

As you say "Not always". Insurance companies don't always entertain claims either.
But it's better than nothing - and nothing is what the remaining 90% of workers have.
No wonder the economy is going down the toilet.

My union has negotiated better conditions from my employer for 28 years. 

Of course, non union members get the same benefits despite playing no role in attaining them.

IMV that's the norm, not the exception.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> As you say "Not always". Insurance companies don't always entertain claims either.
> But it's better than nothing - and nothing is what the remaining 90% of workers have.
> No wonder the economy is going down the toilet.
> 
> ...



I think a lot of workers might not know the process to go through. But its not hard to make a complaint this day and age.

I dealt with a lot of unions round Sydney and nsw. Some really good guys and some really really bad ones.


----------



## chiff (18 December 2019)

Pity that Kipling and Chuchill are not alive.They could see that England could once again demonstrate its moral superiority- unencumbered by Europe.


----------



## Humid (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I did  jobs for a few of the top rankers in the unions. And I know what a few of the shtbags got up to.
> 
> Never had a wage job. I was taught by family and always had my own company.
> 
> Unions barely look after their own members let alone anyone else. Theres a lot of those stories of "unions screwed me" as well. Unions won't go against the big companies that feed em. Hows those membership numbers going?




How’s your zero income over xmas going?


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> As you say "Not always". Insurance companies don't always entertain claims either.
> But it's better than nothing - and nothing is what the remaining 90% of workers have.
> No wonder the economy is going down the toilet.
> 
> ...



I found over my working career, that unions are great and I was always a fully paid up member.
I found what ruins them, is what usually ruins many organisations, some of the people who get into management to further their own ends.
It happens in all walks of life, someone sees the opportunity to either brown nose to the boss, or further their political ambitions and see becoming a union rep as a way of getting an audience with management.
It doesn't happen at all workplaces, but I generally worked in large organisations and it happened a lot as there were many reps covering a lot of areas.
It does fall back to the apathy of the workers for not standing for election, but that doesn't change the issue, IMO usually the bully with a self interest won the day backed by his or her cronies.
There is and always will be a place for unions, but the sooner they go back to their prime function of putting the worker first, the sooner they will start and increase their numbers.
They need to disassociate themselves from the political parties and focus on the workplace and furthering the aspirations and outcomes for workers and their working conditions.
Not trying to ensure that one party has its blind support, because the political parties themselves are morphing into other than what they originally were.
With the advent of the internet and social media, the people are well connected and a free flow of information is happening and by the results World wide the working class aren't happy with Labor, which by the defacto relationship says they aren't happy with the union.
So something has to change, or Labor and the unions will continue to slide, which will end in tears for the worker IMO.
The unions keep the conservatives honest, no one is keeping Labor on track, because they are no longer the working mans party ATM they have been hijacked and lost their way.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

With regard Brexit and the U.K election, from my understanding, talking to my truck driver cousin in North England this article sums it up pretty well.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/the...r-hate-the-working-class-20191217-p53kq3.html
From the article:
_Whenever working-class outsiders complain about how an immigration or economic policy blights their lives the response of the enlightened insiders is to brand them either “racist” or “stupid”.

This is the judgment of those who make or champion enlightened policies but don’t live in the frontline suburbs where they land. It is not their jobs, wages or communities that are asked to endure wrenching change.

It is evident across the Western world that there is now a chasm dividing inner-city internationalists and the working-class nationalists who sustain their lifestyles. Many in wealthy city sanctums are now so disconnected from their sources of food, wealth and energy that they are voting against them or seeking to ban them.

This is an increasingly bitter battle between the winners and losers from globalisation. The Economist has reported that Chinese import competition caused 20 per cent of the losses in manufacturing jobs in America and whole regions went into permanent decline.


Loading
Most of the “creative destruction” that followed the international opening of markets was in the jobs lost by blue-collar men. That also helped destroy the lives of their wives and children. Manual workers across the West now face fewer jobs and falling real wages, so is it any wonder their anger is rising.

These are not privileged white men. They were the ones that emptied your garbage, dealt with your sewerage, built your machines, dug in dangerous mines, grew your food, lived hard but proud lives and had the privilege of fighting and dying on the frontline whenever we called a war.

On the other side of the divide are the city-based knowledge industry workers who are enjoying all the benefits of free-trade and the free movement of immigrants without having to bother with any of the downsides.

This divide was something the British Labour Party, with its deep roots in working communities, should have been able to recognise. Its historic project is to defend working people, so it should have pitched its tent with them and sought to address their very real concerns. And at their heart was a scream of rage against imperious, unreachable EU bureaucrats and a fear that the free movement of labour was an existential threat.


Loading
But Labour was torn between its traditional base and the woke progressive class that had invaded it.

That had grown into a legion when the party allowed supporters who paid just £3 to vote in leadership ballots.

This crowd came with all the verities of the new age and all their many prejudices. At base they really hate the working class. They hate their jobs, their cars, their sports, their music and their lifestyles.

So Labour chose as leader Jeremy Corbyn, a gold-plated, copper-bottomed, ocean-going Trot from central casting. And the working class really hates Trots. It was a marriage made in hell.

The British election saw an abject rejection of the party of the workers by the workers. It turned out they weren’t suffering regret. They were enraged. Maybe it’s time to try to understand why, because a real workers' revolution is sweeping the globe_.

Well it looks as though the penny may be dropping, the whole article IMO, is well worth a read.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 December 2019)

Yes I read that. Chris Ulman is a very good and respected writer.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

Good article @sptrawler  thanks.

I've always said that change will come from the working class, they are the ones with the least to lose and the most cajones.

If the conservatives have any brains whatsoever they will respect the opportunity that has been given them.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes I read that. Chris Ulman is a very good and respected writer.



I was just amazed, at how well he captured the reality of what is happening. IMO


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Good article @sptrawler  thanks.
> 
> I've always said that change will come from the working class, they are the ones with the least to lose and the most cajones.
> 
> If the conservatives have any brains whatsoever they will respect the opportunity that has been given them.



This is the real problem, the last thing the worker needs is a weak Labor Party, they really need to get back to basics.
When the workers prefer a conservative party over a Labor Party, it shows how far Labor has drifted from its origins.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> This is the real problem, the last thing the worker needs is a weak Labor Party, they really need to get back to basics.
> When the workers prefer a conservative party over a Labor Party, it shows how far Labor has drifted from its origins.



The working class are the new, actual conservatives. 

Think about it.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> The working class are the new, actual conservatives.
> 
> Think about it.



That is because the conservatives are reducing the load on the worker, and the other parties are suggesting change that will lose jobs and cost heaps, the worker is smart enough to know who will pay for it.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> That is because the conservatives are reducing the load on the worker, and the other parties are suggesting change that will lose jobs and cost heaps, the worker is smart enough to know who will pay for it.



That is of course very true, but I was thinking more particularly the cultural conservatives.

But I stress your point is absolutely spot on.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I dealt with a lot of unions round Sydney and nsw. Some really good guys and some really really bad ones.




How unions operate really depends on the individuals involved and it's a situation where both extremes tend to turn up.

I was kicked out of a union once for defusing industrial action. The unions wanted marches down the street waving flags and all that. Smurf just explained the problem to management, pointed to independent sources which would verify it, and management promptly came back "ah yes I see the point being made, there's a problem yes, let's sort this out...." and that was it. Workers got what they wanted albeit by means of a bureaucratic process but they got the desired outcome in full, work carried on uninterrupted, union chap was fuming and suffice to say I was promptly removed as a member.

They're anything from brilliant to pure evil depending on the individuals involved.

Same with managers. Anything from genius to outright destruction is possible depending on the individuals involved, their skills and most critically their personality. That's the critical one, personality, since whilst skills can be learned by anyone with reasoanble intelligence and the right outlook on life it's very hard to turn a moron into someone decent and that personality failing inevitably wrecks the business in due course.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

Humid said:


> How’s your zero income over xmas going?




I've never been on a weekly wage, well except for apprenticeship and that was under family so it was all over the place. 
Took money when I  needed it. 
Plenty of friends that are similar.


----------



## Humid (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I've never been on a weekly wage, well except for apprenticeship and that was under family so it was all over the place.
> Took money when I  needed it.
> Plenty of friends that are similar.




Hence your constant bagging of unions
Even what you earn is based on union agreements


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Hence your constant bagging of unions
> Even what you earn is based on union agreements



I've had a birds eye view of what elements in unions did. Hence my constant bagging. No problem with them fighting for better conditions for workers.

Yeah, libs got you tax cuts if you want to play that game. 

I'm not anti union I'm anti corrupt practices or over balance. And I notice many that sht canned folau and backed big business are the ones preaching to me about unions and workers rights in other threads. 
The only consistency seems to be political ideology.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

Nothing to do with political ideology @moXJO 

Just won't tolerate some fundamentalist God Botherer shoving their views down my throat. 

Linking Folau with unions and workers is tenuous at best - as is the theory the Conservatives make life easier for workers - still chuckling at that one


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Nothing to do with political ideology @moXJO
> 
> Just won't tolerate some fundamentalist God Botherer shoving their views down my throat.
> 
> Linking Folau with unions and workers is tenuous at best - as is the theory the Conservatives make life easier for workers - still chuckling at that one



I think moxjo was indicating some who champion the unions right to defend workers, were among those who agreed with Rugby Australia's right to sack Folau, which in reality would be a major contradiction of beliefs. IMO


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think moxjo was indicating some who champion the unions right to defend workers, were among those who agreed with Rugby Australia's right to sack Folau, which in reality would be a major contradiction of beliefs. IMO



That's how I interpreted his comment as well. But IMV, there's no connection.

I'd highly doubt Folau was a union member - trade union that is 

Workers gets sacked for online behaviour all the time - it's nothing new and it has zip to do with political persuasion. People might even criticise a union for defending a worker in that sort of case. They get criticised for everything else.

One would wonder what a post Brexit UK would be like if the Conservatives adopt the same over regulation on unions as they do in this country.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Nothing to do with political ideology @moXJO
> 
> Just won't tolerate some fundamentalist God Botherer shoving their views down my throat.
> 
> Linking Folau with unions and workers is tenuous at best - as is the theory the Conservatives make life easier for workers - still chuckling at that one



Legal side is his rights were infringed by big business. It doesn't matter if he is a fundamentalist or not. 
Pretty simple.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I notice many that sht canned folau and backed big business are the ones preaching to me about unions and workers rights in other threads




The underlying issue there is the one which separates those genuinely trying to achieve progress for workers, the environment, disadvantaged groups or whatever genuine cause versus those perpetually outraged for the sake of being outraged.

It's the "endless agenda" stuff which gets the blue collar workers etc offside with that sort of politics.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think moxjo was indicating some who champion the unions right to defend workers, were among those who agreed with Rugby Australia's right to sack Folau, which in reality would be a major contradiction of beliefs. IMO



Yep - if he was an ordinary worker in a decent union then they'd have given the company's bosses outright hell.

Not because of agreement with what he said but on the basis that he wasn't being paid for the time and as such it's none of their business what he does in that time.

The "celebrity" aspect of it is the only thing which really made it any different.


----------



## Humid (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I've had a birds eye view of what elements in unions did. Hence my constant bagging. No problem with them fighting for better conditions for workers.
> 
> Yeah, libs got you tax cuts if you want to play that game.
> 
> ...




Well if your lot went for the banks instead of the unions shareholders on here might have been better off
Your lot reckoned a Royal Commission wasn’t necessary lolz


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> *Legal side is his rights were infringed by big business.* It doesn't matter if he is a fundamentalist or not.
> Pretty simple.



Sorry, but that statement is not accurate.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Well if your lot went for the banks instead of the unions shareholders on here might have been better off
> Your lot reckoned a Royal Commission wasn’t necessary lolz



I don't support people getting ripped off. 
Unions and business need to be routinely pulled in.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Sorry, but that statement is not accurate.



Yes it is. Theres a law and everything.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Yes it is. Theres a law and everything.



What law ? It wasn't even been passed yet.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> What law ? It wasn't even been passed yet.



Go back to the folau thread I posted it up in there previous.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Go back to the folau thread I posted it up in there previous.



Better spell it out to us mate. All I'm seeing is your view that he won. Nothing legal.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

Meanwhile, the luvvies are having random conniptions in shops now


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Better spell it out to us mate. All I'm seeing is your view that he won. Nothing legal.



One of the stated objectives of Part 6-4, Division 2 of the Fair Work Act is to give effect to International Labour Organisation Conventions 111 and 158, which were adopted in 1958 and 1982 respectively, then and ratified by Australia in 1973 and 1993.

The ILO is an agency of the United Nations. Under these two instruments of international law, Australia agreed that it would enact laws eliminating religious and other discrimination in employment AND that it would legislate so that employment can't be terminated on invalid grounds, including because of an employee's religion.

According to the ILO, such religious discrimination includes discrimination based on a person's expression of their religious beliefs.

Accordingly, section 772(1) of the Fair Work Act makes it unlawful (subject to some irrelevant exceptions) for an employer to terminate an employee's employment because of, or for reasons including an employee's religion. And if an employee's religion includes a person's expression of their religious beliefs - "believers" hardly worship in a vacuum - then was Folau terminated for reasons including his religion, or not?

If an employee's employment is nonetheless terminated because of reasons including those which are statutorily unlawful under section 772(1), the employee has 21 days after the termination, to apply to the Fair Work Commission, asking it to deal with the matter.
Usually, the FWC deals with such matters by way of mediation or conciliation. Those methods of touchy-feely dispute resolution won't cut the mustard though, in resolving the dispute to the satisfaction of either RA and Folau. So once the FWC agrees, the Act requires it to issue a certificate to that effect. Thereafter, Folau is free to take his unlawful termination case to the Federal Court of Australia.
Remember, we're dealing with "unlawful" termination, not a guillotining which is merely unfair or harsh. Once unlawful termination is alleged, it's up to RA to prove the termination wasn't anything to do with any unlawful reason, or for reasons INCLUDING that unlawful reason.

And if RA can't prove the termination had nothing at all to do with religion, then the Federal Court has the full jurisdiction to order that RA reinstate Folau; pay him full compensation; pay his (no doubt significant) legal bills; and pay a civil penalty of $A50,000 or more.

It's fair to say that an immense amount hinges on RA being able to absolutely delineate between it having terminated Folau's employment because he breached RA's applicable code of conduct by reason of expressing his religious beliefs; but NOT because of his religion, religious beliefs or the expression of those beliefs.

Moreover it's a dangerous division to say that a professional athlete's right to genuinely express their religious beliefs is mutually exclusive with his or her right to work.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> All I'm seeing is your view that he won.



Jesus if thats losing in your world then we should play poker sometime.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

I think this discussion sums up the problem rather well actually.

Too much focus on triviality whilst failing to address the real problems facing society.

That's an observation as to why many are disenfranchised with politics and not intended as an insult to anyone posting here. 

Religion, ideology and so on - yeah whatever now what are we going to do about the real problems facing workers like globalisation? That's what it comes down to, too much fuss being made about the stuffing whilst ignoring the fact that we ain't got no turkey nor an oven to cook it in.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Meanwhile, the luvvies are having random conniptions in shops now




Forgot the link


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Jesus if thats losing in your world then we should play poker sometime.



So no authority has ruled he was unlawfully terminated then. The case didn't get that far.

Where it has gone is a violation of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...-complaint-against-folau-20191213-p53jwj.html

He's by no means out of the woods yet mate. I'd even say he's going face down 

I'll raise a Folrexit though...


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> as is the theory the Conservatives make life easier for workers - still chuckling at that one



Actually I think historically, you will find that workers wages do better during periods the conservatives are in, this is mainly due to the fact unions are more active in those periods.
Secondly the time of worst wage outcomes for workers, was during the Hawke/Keating period, where from memory real wages dropped 18% relative to CPI.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federa...f-bob-hawke-not-gough-whitlam-20190517-p51oje
From the article:
_But the first measures of the Hawke-Keating government deliberately cut real wages through a formal wage freeze in order to restore profits and get business hiring again. This fixed what was then called the “real wage overhang” after the trade unions plundered Australia’s resources boom of the late 1970s, exaggerating its collapse into the recession of the early 1980s. Mr Hawke’s immediate goal was to restore business profits and encourage them to put on workers.

By the March 1983 election, unemployment had reached 10 per cent. By 1989 it was down to 5.9 per cent. The Hawke government highlighted that the greatest social fairness was having a job, and that workers could only prosper if the economy and business did, too. With the reduction in trade union power, Australia’s reformed economy got through the end of the 2000s resources boom without a jobs recession. Now the unions are demanding more power. And, as it anticipates the reins of power, a Labor government promises to raise wages through political edict rather than through productivity.

Even as ACTU president in the 1970s, Mr Hawke was a new breed of university-educated advocates for the unions. Unlike the ACTU’s pre-modern ideologues calling for a 50 per cent rise in the minimum wage at the Fair Work Commission this week, Mr Hawke sought to marshall sound economic arguments based on productivity. He avoided the class war rhetoric of modern Labor. His radicalism was aimed instead against the antediluvian protectionists of his own labour movement and the closeted paternalism of Australian business. Both needed the blast of economic openness. An early shot came from the defining decision to float the dollar on December 12, 1983, providing both real-time market judgment on the value of the Australian economy and a cushion against foreign shocks. The Australian Financial Review enthused that the government’s “sane, rational” approach to policy was better than anyone had expected, to the point of breaking with practice to urge its readers to vote at the 1984 election for a particular party:_ Labor.

Also during that period, there was the pilots strike, which Hawke crushed by using the RAAF to strike break.
If a conservative government had tried that, the unions would have shut the Country down.
Times are changing and Labor are nothing like what they were in the early 1970's, to believe they are is just fairy tales, perpetuated to keep the myth going.
I'll vote Labor when they start talking sense, or when the coalition starts trying to re introduce 'work choices', but i don't think that will ever re surface it died a big death when Howard was chucked out.
It's also funny to note that Hawke said "the greatest social fairness is to have a job", the conservatives say that and they get shouted down.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think this discussion sums up the problem rather well actually.
> 
> Too much focus on triviality whilst failing to address the real problems facing society.
> 
> ...



That's because that stuff isn't allowed to get on the agenda. Real issues are not allowed to be debated.

Alinsky's book has messed that up for generations


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Actually I think historically, you will find that workers wages do better during periods the conservatives are in, this is mainly due to the fact unions are more active in those periods.
> Secondly the time of worst wage outcomes for workers, was during the Hawke/Keating period, where from memory real wages dropped 18% relative to CPI.
> https://www.afr.com/politics/federa...f-bob-hawke-not-gough-whitlam-20190517-p51oje
> From the article:
> ...



If you want to select that era, sure, the Hawke Govt made a deal with unions to deal with the wage explosion left over by the Fraser Govt. The conservatives opposed every single wage rise under those accords, then got in to Govt and straight away got into dirty deals with a labour force from O/S and guard dogs in the docks, then workchoices, then (unsuccessfully) moving the pension age to 70, new taxes on super and through to now with stagnate wages and opposition to penalty rates.

This Christian Porter fellow is a real hoot - he reckons all those hospitality deals where workers were getting under payed were good deals. Gotta love it - not 

But.... I'm not pushing a Labor barrow - we were talking about whether the unions benefit workers or not.

I take the view that quality of life in this country is better than the UK - with or without Brexit - but it would be better if the right didn't constantly attack it by going after workers' conditions etc.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> If you want to select that era, sure, the Hawke Govt made a deal with unions to deal with the wage explosion left over by the Fraser Govt. The conservatives opposed every single wage rise under those accords, then got in to Govt and straight away got into dirty deals with a labour force from O/S and guard dogs in the docks, then workchoices, then (unsuccessfully) moving the pension age to 70, new taxes on super and through to now with stagnate wages and opposition to penalty rates.
> 
> This Christian Porter fellow is a real hoot - he reckons all those hospitality deals where workers were getting under payed were good deals. Gotta love it - not
> 
> ...



Like I said, when the conservatives are in, the unions fight them tooth and nail.
When Labor are in the unions try to avoid any disruption, I have been to many stop work meetings, where we are told not to take any action because it would have an adverse effect on the sitting labor Party.
You can believe anything you like, obviously you have a good union and rep, which is great.
By the way Labor raised the pension age to 67 and I will be surprised if it isn't them, that lifts it to 70.
The stagnant wages would be there no matter who is in, the economy is contracting due to the post boom effect and the global slowdown, as I'm sure your aware.
Buying your way out of the situation at the moment, will just put us in a world of pain later, it wasn't long ago everyone was saying we were kicking the can down the road.
Well by tightening now and having a bit of pain, is the alternative, I guess we can't have it both ways.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> The case didn't get that far.



Thats what you're throwing up in defence?


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Thats what you're throwing up in defence?



Of course - you can't preempt a breach of the law if you don't know the law was breached.

Why else do they have a justice system ?



sptrawler said:


> Like I said, when the conservatives are in, the unions fight them tooth and nail.
> When Labor are in the unions try to avoid any disruption, I have been to many stop work meetings, where we are told not to take any action because it would have an adverse effect on the sitting labor Party.
> You can believe anything you like, obviously you have a good union and rep, which is great.
> By the way Labor raised the pension age to 67 and I will be surprised if it isn't them, that lifts it to 70.
> ...




I have never heard of, or been to a union meeting where they dictate our actions to protect the Labor party. That's a new one for me. Yes it's a good union, double figure % in two years. Something for the rest of the country to aspire to.

Yes, Labor raised the pension age to 67, they also raised the pension itself at the same time 

First party that raises it to 70 will have more than just their cans getting kicked down the road.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Of course - you can't preempt a breach of the law if you don't know the law was breached.
> 
> Why else do they have a justice system ?



Were we not just having a discussion  against backing business over employees?


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yes it's a good union, double figure % in two years. Something for the rest of the country to aspire to.



So as I said your wages seem to be doing o.k under a coalition Government.



PZ99 said:


> Yes, Labor raised the pension age to 67, they also raised the pension itself at the same time



That doesn't help those who are 65.



PZ99 said:


> First party that raises it to 70 will have more than just their cans getting kicked down the road.



Apparently as above, it will be o.k as long as they increase the pension at the same time.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Were we not just having a discussion  against backing business over employees?



No I thought we were busting the myth that people who support Folau getting sacked were somehow violating their own political ideology.



sptrawler said:


> So as I said your wages seem to be doing o.k under a coalition Government.



No, my wages are doing OK because of the union. Coalition Government played no role in that success - if they had their way, the union would be de-registered and/or banned from entering my workplace.



sptrawler said:


> That doesn't help those who are 65.



It helps people who are 67, 68 and 69. 
But yeah, if the Coalition want to bring it back to 65, I'll listen.



sptrawler said:


> Apparently as above, it will be o.k as long as they increase the pension at the same time.



Apparently, no one is making that claim


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

Well I guess you just aren't a swing voter.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

Well I guess I am given that I voted for the Coalition in the last state election and Labor in the last federal election.

In the case of the UK I think the Conservatives won for the same reason as they did in NSW - simply because the alternatives were hilarious. I don't think it has anything to do with the working class having some latent love of Conservative values in their DNA - it just doesn't scan.

IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> In the case of the UK I think the Conservatives won for the same reason as they did in NSW - simply because the alternatives were hilarious. I don't think it has anything to do with the working class having some latent love of Conservative values in their DNA - it just doesn't scan.
> 
> IMO.



I haven't heard anyone, say the working class has a latent love of conservatives.
More a disenchantment with Labor, than a love for the Conservatives, similar to what happened here.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I haven't heard anyone, say the working class has a latent love of conservatives.



Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative *values*. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative *values*. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.



Well the swing to the Conservatives in the U.K was huge, Labor lost seats that they have held for over 100 years apparently, it must be more than just poor presentation?
I guess we will have to see what happens here, next election, because the economy will still be slow I assume.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> No I thought we were busting the myth that people who support Folau getting sacked were somehow violating their own political ideology.



How is it a myth? the left leaning on here backed it. 



PZ99 said:


> Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative *values*. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.




Do you know what the conservative values towards work are?


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Well the swing to the Conservatives in the U.K was huge, Labor lost seats that they have held for over 100 years apparently, it must be more than just poor presentation?
> I guess we will have to see what happens here, next election, because the economy will still be slow I assume.



I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.

No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.



moXJO said:


> How is it a myth? the left leaning on here backed it.



That doesn't mean anything. I'm sure the left leaning were happy for the WBC bosses to be sacked too. I'm sure you'll agree that people are capable of thinking outside political lines ?




moXJO said:


> Do you know what the conservative values towards work are?



Yes. They are to make you work till you drop, get paid the lowest possible wage, ban unfair dismissal laws, remove all workers' benefits such as sick leave, annual leave and penalty rates, turn every day into a Monday, make industrial action illegal and ban unions from entering workplaces. Don't believe me? They are, or were, conservative policies handed down over the last few decades.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.
> 
> No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.
> .



That's interesting, I didn't follow the U.K election at all, but from what I was reading on ASF it sounded as though Johnson was the goose?
A bit like reading on ASF, one would think Trump will be hammered next election, if he even makes it that far?


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.
> 
> No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.
> 
> ...



Policies and values are completely different things. 
So are capitalist and conservative values.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> A bit like reading on ASF, one would think Trump will be hammered next election, if he even makes it that far?



I think he is currently polling just ahead of all current democrat candidates. Early days though.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

With regard to all the discussion about unions etc and noting the thread is about Brexit, I'll simply pose a question:

What, at a fundamental level, is Brexit really about?

It's hard to present it as anything other than a rejection by the mainstream of globalisation and big government (that is, the EU). Details aside, it's nationalism of a sort.

Now back to the blue collar workers that keep coming up, go to any worksite and start talking about this stuff and you'll immediately get told what the problem is. "Business will just go where it's cheapest if nobody stops them" and indeed they will.

Thing is, some guy with a shovel can see the obvious but we've got "geniuses" with economics degrees who keep harping on about Australia, UK and other developed countries moving to "higher value" work.

Now I'm pretty sure that the same guys with the shovels would say they've heard quite enough of these empty promises and it's time to force them to deliver. Let's have these supposedly higher value things, not necessarily for themselves but for their kids and others, and that doesn't mean cafes, tourism, mass immigration or mining since none of those are higher value activities than manufacturing etc that we've given up.

Truth is these "higher value" things aren't coming, at most what we've got is merely a small scale version of where we'd have been anyway as a technological leader. If we could make our own cars, appliances, electronics and so on then sure we'd be doing autonomous vehicles and so on now. Building a few such vehicles is thus not a sign of this "higher value" work arriving - at best it's a sign that something still remains of what used to be with innovation and manufacturing.

The masses can see that they've been sold a crock and they're not happy. Whoever's perceived as furthest away from that will thus be perceived as best of a bad bunch.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> That's interesting, I didn't follow the U.K election at all, but from what I was reading on ASF it sounded as though Johnson was the goose?



Maybe he was, probably with a shorter neck  But he clearly ran a superior campaign.

Trump doesn't even have an opposition yet. LOL. Impeachment ain't gonna happen.



moXJO said:


> Policies and values are completely different things.
> So are capitalist and conservative values.



You wouldn't create conservative policies if you didn't have conservative values 

Capitalism is a union strength. If you want to de-regulate IR laws you start ny removing all restrictions on union activity. _I'm all right, Jack..._


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> With regard to all the discussion about unions etc and noting the thread is about Brexit, I'll simply pose a question:
> 
> What, at a fundamental level, is Brexit really about?
> 
> ...



I really can't see where our wages growth is going to come from. We continue to slide down the industrialization index, automation is beginning to eat into high paying low skilled mining jobs, our education standard is falling and very little tertiary industry is being established.
IMO it isn't looking good.
I think the UK election was the masses saying we have had enough, it will be interesting to see how the UK goes in the next three years, if it does well I think our next election will be a landslide to one party or the other.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> You wouldn't create conservative policies if you didn't have conservative values




Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.

Prior to this "identity politics" nonsense that's how governments operated.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.



Or the other way around. But we've seen how long leaders keep their job in this country if they don't tow the party line.

Winning elections tends to give leaders authority over the factions. Boris will get what he wants.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.
> 
> Prior to this "identity politics" nonsense that's how governments operated.



Which is exactly what I mentioned earlier, with regard Bob Hawke and the crushing of the pilots dispute.
But it didn't get much traction.
The World is all grey at the moment, mention black and white and you are given a bell and sent to the naughty corner.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Winning elections tends to give leaders authority over the factions. Boris will get what he wants.



Boris will get what he wants?
Winning with an 80 seat majority, should tell his Party something, like most of the people liked what they heard.
Hopefully they take notice this time, unlike the last time, which was the Brexit referendum.
This seems to be the over riding logic these days, it isn't about what the majority want, it is about the rest thinking the majority are just stupid.


----------



## PZ99 (18 December 2019)

Well he'll get mostly what he wants - probably have to pay extra for that scotch


----------



## sptrawler (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> In the case of the UK I think the Conservatives won for the same reason as they did in NSW - simply because the alternatives were hilarious. I don't think it has anything to do with the working class having some latent love of Conservative values in their DNA - it just doesn't scan.
> IMO.




Well Tony Blair doesn't agree that it is just because of poor presentation.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...-labour-s-massive-defeat-20191218-p53lav.html
From the article:
_Blair said that under Corbyn, "the takeover of the Labour Party by the far left turned it into a glorified protest movement, with cult trimmings, utterly incapable of being a credible government_".

_But Blair said the vote against socialism, and Labour's "wish-list" manifesto filled with unbelievable promises of "everything for free" including fibre broadband connections to everyone's house.

"Any fool can promise everything for free," Blair said.

"But the people weren't fooled. They know life isn't like that. And the loading in of ‘free broadband’ run by government was the final confirmation of incredibility_.

The blue collar workers have had a gutfull, they know who pays for all this crap. 
What is the old saying? Socialism is great, untill you run out of other peoples money to spend.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

Yeah, OK. Other politicians will state theirs views obviously. Some might say the real catalyst was Brexit. Nothing from Blair suggests blue collar workers are conservatives and that's the hang up. 

If Sarah Hanson Young took over the Labor Party here we would get the same result.
It doesn't mean we've all suddenly dabbled with Tory shit 

I just think it's too simplistic to stereotype blue collar workers as affiliates for any persuasion.

Frankly, it's an insult to their intelligence.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yeah, OK. Other politicians will state theirs views obviously. Some might say the real catalyst was Brexit. Nothing from Blair suggests blue collar workers are conservatives and that's the hang up.
> 
> If Sarah Hanson Young took over the Labor Party here we would get the same result.
> It doesn't mean we've all suddenly dabbled with Tory shit
> ...



Culturally, the working class is actually the most "conservative" section society these days.... And they know they are being sold down the river by the purported "labour movement".

If the conservative party doesn't betray their trust, they will become long-term conservative voters, believe you me. But I readily acknowledge that the conservatives have the capacity to completely f£#@ that up.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Culturally, the working class is actually the most "conservative" section society these days.... And they know they are being sold down the river by the purported "labour movement".
> 
> If the conservative party doesn't betray their trust, they will become long-term conservative voters, believe you me. But I readily acknowledge that the conservatives have the capacity to completely f£#@ that up.



What name do we give them when they eventually get around to voting Labour ?

Cultural Marxists ?


----------



## sptrawler (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yeah, OK. Other politicians will state theirs views obviously. Some might say the real catalyst was Brexit. Nothing from Blair suggests blue collar workers are conservatives and that's the hang up.
> 
> If Sarah Hanson Young took over the Labor Party here we would get the same result.
> It doesn't mean we've all suddenly dabbled with Tory shit
> ...



No one is saying the workers are taking on conservative values, they are saying that workers are disagreeing with what Labour are presenting.
The conservatives are getting the vote by default, because they are seen as the lesser of two evils, not because the workers like them.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> No one is saying the workers are taking on conservative values



wayneL is saying the workers are taking on conservative values



sptrawler said:


> they are saying that workers are disagreeing with what Labour are presenting.



I'm saying that workers are disagreeing with what Labour are presenting.

I think the term I used was "totally poor presentation"

I agree with _"The conservatives are getting the vote by default, because they are seen as the lesser of two evils, not because the workers like them."_

That's exactly what I've saying during this entire debate.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> What name do we give them when they eventually get around to voting Labour ?
> 
> Cultural Marxists ?



Well that would depend on whether the Labour party is culturally Marxist at the time. Thus far, the working class has rejected such ludicrousness.


----------



## sptrawler (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I'm saying that workers are disagreeing with what Labour are presenting.
> 
> I think the term I used was "totally poor presentation"
> 
> ...




My apologies, to me ' poor presentation' is the way something is delivered.

When I said, they aren't happy with what Labour are presenting, I was meaning the content of what was presented, not the way it was being presented.

Obviously a misunderstanding.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Well that would depend on whether the Labour party is culturally Marxist at the time. Thus far, the working class has rejected such ludicrousness.



What happens if they don't know the Labour party is culturally Marxist ?

Most people on the street wouldn't even know the majority of the polices taken to the elections.

Better off just calling them the apolitical working class. That is what they are.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> What happens if they don't know the Labour party is culturally Marxist ?
> 
> Most people on the street wouldn't even know the majority of the polices taken to the elections.
> 
> Better off just calling them the apolitical working class. That is what they are.




Why did they just kick Labor and Labour to the foetid gutter of political purgatory then?


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Why did they just kick Labor and Labour to the foetid gutter of political purgatory then?



Because they didn't like Bill Shorten. Because they didn't like Jeremy Corbyn.

Because both campaigns were atrocious, hostile and in the case of here, because Clive Palmer ran a very expensive scare campaign and directed his preferences to the Liberal Party...

Ask yourself this... how did the Australian Conservatives go ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Because they didn't like Bill Shorten. Because they didn't like Jeremy Corbyn.




I’m pretty sure policy had a lot to do with it too. At least that’s what I’ve heard others saying at the time.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I’m pretty sure policy had a lot to do with it too. At least that’s what I’ve heard others saying at the time.



Any policies in particular ?

I work two factory jobs and each has over a thousand workers on each shift. Ordinary everyday working people. The vast majority don't give two hoots about politics.


----------



## sptrawler (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Any policies in particular ?
> 
> I work two factory jobs and each has over a thousand workers on each shift. Ordinary everyday working people. The vast majority don't give two hoots about politics.




That actually sums it up perfectly, most say very little about their political leanings and can't be bothered arguing about politics, that is why the demographics of the actual vote says so much.
When affluent areas are voting Labour and working areas are voting Conservative, it says a lot more than if both demographics are voting the same way.
If both demographic areas are moving toward the Conservatives then that would indicate a poor campaign by Labour, but as happened here the affluent areas had a swing toward Labour and the working areas had a swing toward Conservative.
This would indicate the affluent are receptive to the labour platform and the working areas not so impressed.
Which policies swung the voters, is anyones guess.
Just my opinion.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Because they didn't like Bill Shorten. Because they didn't like Jeremy Corbyn.
> 
> Because both campaigns were atrocious, hostile and in the case of here, because Clive Palmer ran a very expensive scare campaign and directed his preferences to the Liberal Party...
> 
> Ask yourself this... how did the Australian Conservatives go ?



If you believe the left mate, Johnson is literally Hitler, so come on now quit bullshiting.

How did the Australian Conserva.... err, I mean Australian Catholics go? About as well as the the Australian Socialist Workers Party, or whatever _nom de plume_ they go by these days


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> If you believe the left mate, Johnson is literally Hitler, so come on now quit bullshiting.
> 
> How did the Australian Conserva.... err, I mean Australian Catholics go? About as well as the the Australian Socialist Workers Party, or whatever _nom de plume_ they go by these days



I don't believe the left either mate... is that the impetus of your bullshit?

If you believe the right... the Liberal Party here are too far to the left so HTF does that make the working class conservative ?


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I don't believe the left either mate... is that the impetus of your bullshit?
> 
> If you believe the right... the Liberal Party here are too far to the left so HTF does that make the working class conservative ?



Look up the meaning of "conservative', bruh.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Look up the meaning of "conservative', bruh.



Let's take a shortcut... resistance to change - such as SSM. How did that vote work out?


----------



## moXJO (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Let's take a shortcut... resistance to change - such as SSM. How did that vote work out?



I'm not sure you know what
Conservative workplace values actually align too?


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I'm not sure you know what
> Conservative workplace values actually align too?



Feel free to blow us all over with your views on it mate


----------



## moXJO (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Feel free to blow us all over with your views on it mate



You know theres this thing called Google


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> You know theres this thing called Google



I see the lack of confidence in your knowledge has given you a need to play mind games.

Disappointing but not unexpected. Standard Tory style cop out


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Let's take a shortcut... resistance to change - such as SSM. How did that vote work out?



Look bruh, I think progressives have done some good stuff (though still lukewarm on SSM for reasons stated at the time... which reservations seem increasingly justified).

But it's a matter of striking a reasonable balance. I think it reasonable the Working class being alarmed  at being sacrificed at the alter of woke, and consequently tending towards conservatism in many aspects.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Look bruh, I think progressives have done some good stuff (though still lukewarm on SSM for reasons stated at the time... which reservations seem increasingly justified).
> 
> But it's a matter of striking a reasonable balance. I think it reasonable the Working class being alarmed  at being sacrificed at the alter of woke, and consequently tending towards conservatism in many aspects.



That may be the case in the circle of clients you deal with. Not in mine - those issues never get discussed around the water cooler.

What gets discussed is the ratio of living costs versus the capacity to pay for it.

If you're saying there's a shift away from progressive values you wouldn't be re-electing a progressive Govt in your state.

Elections aren't always decided by ideology - I'd go as far as suggesting the last time that happened federally was in 2007.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Any policies in particular ?




Agreed that politics isn't a top of the list subject for most but among those I associate with it's certainly not a forbidden topic, it's something that comes up from time to time.

Main gripes about Labor in the Australian context seemed to be:

1. Not enough incentive and encouragement for those who make an effort.

A perception that Labor was targeting those who've made an effort to invest and so on when they should instead be cracking down on those who had the financial means to invest but instead aimed to rely in welfare. Targeting the wrong group basically.

2. A broad perception that Labor is appealing to "people who wear a suit to work" in many ways but in particular with regards to issues such as globalisation.

The Coalition is seen as pretty woeful also but at least slightly more nationalistic and inclined to stand up to other countries rather than toeing the line. Nowhere near tough enough, but at least slightly tougher than Labor is the perception.

A perception that both parties are unduly favourable to certain countries on account of their money, political influence, natural resources or military strength and that Australia's interests and the safety of workers and the public are being sold out as a direct consequence of that weakness. 

A number of examples came up but in particular the use of asbestos in brand new goods and the failure of Australian authorities to take an appropriately tough stance to what is a prohibited material in this country and most but not all others. Meanwhile far less serious issues with goods from other countries do see a tough response from authorities so there's a perception of bias there and it's to the detriment of human health as well as the business interests of those doing the right thing and facing unfair competition from those cutting corners.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> That may be the case in the circle of clients you deal with. Not in mine - those issues never get discussed around the water cooler.
> 
> What gets discussed is the ratio of living costs versus the capacity to pay for it.
> 
> ...



The election hasn't happened yet mate, we shall see. But as a matter of interest the opposition has  been all but invisible here.

In any case, Palfyvswkhsuksakkdsslfdkgg had been fairly centrist really. Wouldn't know what the other mob are but I'll not voting for either of them.

...and the Greens can go eat s*** and die.


----------



## PZ99 (19 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> The election hasn't happened yet mate, we shall see. But as a matter of interest the opposition has  been all but invisible here.
> 
> In any case, Palfyvswkhsuksakkdsslfdkgg had been fairly centrist really. Wouldn't know what the other mob are but I'll not voting for either of them.
> 
> ...and the Greens can go eat s*** and die.




Yeah they can, and partially they already have. Centrist is fine with me mate. If I added all my values together I'd probably sit around the centre, and I take the view the working class are the same.

Even in Victoria where I frequent I'd say it's the same - despite the last result.

Can't speak for WA or TAS... never been there


----------



## IFocus (19 December 2019)

Hey PZ99 thats a pretty good summery most here have never been working class or had to do it from the bottom being fcked over by employers or the system stagnate wages, conditions  while CEO 's boom etc, the continued naivety of applying 100 year old theology to present days is an intellectually deficit (Marxism etc ).

Understand you may not agree with my own position but I certainly understand yours.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> most here have never been working class or had to do it from the bottom being fcked over by employers or the system




FWIW - I consider myself fortunate to have seen both sides.

Done pick and shovel work out in the rain and all that yes. Done trades work yes. Had my own office yes. Etc. Seen rather a lot from different perspectives.

Suffice to say that my view is firmly that those at the coalface and/or closely associated with it (directly related technical or administrative roles) are far more grounded in reality than those who get excited about KPI's and false deadlines relating to things they couldn't personally do if their life depended on it.

Where the difference lies is that the person using the floor saw can see damn well if the cut isn't straight and so can everyone else on site. Likewise the whole damn state will know if the power fails spectacularly enough, there's no hiding it. Same concept with all physical things - there's no denying that it's not working and no hiding the truth.

When it comes to politics though, well the working classes have been promised that everything's going to be just fine and that their concerns are unwarranted for 40 years now, an entire career length, and thus far the promise is looking awfully hollow. Anyone else would be out of a job long before now for that sort of thing.


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Hey PZ99 thats a pretty good summery most here have never been working class or had to do it from the bottom being fcked over by employers or the system stagnate wages, conditions  while CEO 's boom etc, the continued naivety of applying 100 year old theology to present days is an intellectually deficit (Marxism etc ).
> 
> Understand you may not agree with my own position but I certainly understand yours.



Yep, legend in your own lunch box, what a hoot. The guys at Tulk's would get a laugh out of that one.


----------



## moXJO (20 December 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I see the lack of confidence in your knowledge has given you a need to play mind games.
> 
> Disappointing but not unexpected. Standard Tory style cop out



The question wasn't "do I know what conservative workplace values". I was asking you the question.


----------



## moXJO (20 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Hey PZ99 thats a pretty good summery most here have never been working class or had to do it from the bottom being fcked over by employers or the system stagnate wages, conditions  while CEO 's boom etc, the continued naivety of applying 100 year old theology to present days is an intellectually deficit (Marxism etc ).
> 
> Understand you may not agree with my own position but I certainly understand yours.



Oh please. Take a talk to small businesses owners on hardships. Wage workers are set and forget, no risk no reward types. Nothing wrong with it,  but to say they are doing it tougher then others is wrong. We have some of the highest wages and safeguards in the world here.


----------



## PZ99 (20 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> The question wasn't "do I know what conservative workplace values". I was asking you the question.



I answered your question in post 351. Your response in post 381 implies that I don't know what I'm talking about. That's fine with me.

You've read my views on the subject. I'm happy to read yours, but... suggesting a google search doesn't really add value to the debate. It's your move Bro


----------



## wayneL (20 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Oh please. Take a talk to small businesses owners on hardships. Wage workers are set and forget, no risk no reward types. Nothing wrong with it,  but to say they are doing it tougher then others is wrong. We have some of the highest wages and safeguards in the world here.



Exactly.
No sick pay
No holiday pay
No super contributions
Bloody fifficdif to get adequate insurance (in my trade anyway)
Zero barrier to entry, no trade regulation
Can be summarily dismissed at any time for any reason
extraneous work commitments, paperwork and whatnot
ATO scrutiny
etc etc

I'm not whingeing, but wage earners aren't bad off at all.


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

Maybe if you self employed lot spent less time on here you would make some more money!


----------



## wayneL (20 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Maybe if you self employed lot spent less time on here you would make some more money!



So 60 to 70 hours per week is not enough for you?


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

Meh.... fifo 84/week


----------



## wayneL (20 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Meh.... fifo 84/week



Yeah but I do it 51 weeks a year.

I'm not whingeing though, I do better than a burger flipper


----------



## moXJO (20 December 2019)

Humid said:


> Maybe if you self employed lot spent less time on here you would make some more money!



I actually retired so I could spend more time on here annoying everyone.


----------



## IFocus (20 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> So 60 to 70 hours per week is not enough for you?





Those hours are pretty standard now at the pointy end of private industry I manged to cap mine at 50 to 60 hours but never took breaks none nada start work and dont stop until its time to go home.

Started at 5.00 / 05.30am so to get to go home then there is the mobile 24/7, then there is sitting in rooms with stressed out people on the brink.

HR departments have grown and become far more aggressive with hot lines to lawyers along with down sizing and increasing worth loads.

Still not comparing apples for apples but the idea that a steady job is common is fast  becoming a myth as for easy I guess they are out there but I never saw one for the last 15 years.


----------



## IFocus (20 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, legend in your own lunch box, what a hoot. The guys at Tulk's would get a laugh out of that one.




I was 15 years old when that happen whats your point?

I saw far worst than that experience worked on sites where men died due to lack of safety stands and poor conditions thankfully changed by those union thugs, Marxist, leftestspittle people you run down.


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> I was 15 years old when that happen whats your point?
> 
> I saw far worst than that experience worked on sites where men died due to lack of safety stands and poor conditions thankfully changed by those union thugs, Marxist, leftestspittle people you run down.



Yes, it didn't come out as was intended, too many reds lol.
I was alluding to how far we have all come, since those days, back in the early 70,s


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> I saw far worst than that experience worked on sites where men died due to lack of safety stands and poor conditions thankfully changed by those union thugs, Marxist, leftestspittle people you run down.




What I run down is the way that the union and Labour has changed, I am obviously about 5-10 years older than you and it was during your and my early working years that most of today's conditions were fought for.
I spent all my working life working for wages, in mining, construction and power stations, usually it was down to those industries to have the strikes that won these conditions.
I have been on plenty of strikes, work to rule and boycotts to support not only our claims, but also to support teachers and nurses. The ASU asked the power station workers endlessly to put industrial pressure on the Government, to get teachers and nurses, better pay and conditions. That is why third party boycott laws were introduced.
What I find now, is those who have benefited from the workers such as myself fighting for those conditions, now tell us that it is great that labour are going to bend us over a log, as one of the strong union supporters on here put it.
Well what labour are finding out now, is the very people they are trying to shaft, are those footsoldiers who did the fighting for them.
So they really have got a problem, the Coalition Governments didn't break us, the employers didn't break us and I'm F#@King sure Labour wont break us.
Just saying.


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> What I run down is the way that the union and Labour has changed, I am obviously about 5-10 years older than you and it was during your and my early working years that most of today's conditions were fought for.
> I spent all my working life working for wages, in mining, construction and power stations, usually it was down to those industries to have the strikes that won these conditions.
> I have been on plenty of strikes, work to rule and boycotts to support not only our claims, but also to support teachers and nurses. The ASU asked the power station workers endlessly to put industrial pressure on the Government, to get teachers and nurses, better pay and conditions. That is why third party boycott laws were introduced.
> What I find now, is those who have benefited from the workers such as myself fighting for those conditions, now tell us that it is great that labour are going to bend us over a log, as one of the strong union supporters on here put it.
> ...




You seem to have forgotten that you told everyone here that you never voted Labor
Just took the conditions


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

Humid said:


> You seem to have forgotten that you told everyone here that you never voted Labor
> Just took the conditions



Actually if you told the truth, you would have said, I voted for Gough, voted for Bob and didnt vote for Kev, Julia or Billy and I would still vote the same way.
But you just write what you want, dont let the truth get in the way of your ego.
Also as your post shows, truth and accuracy is something the union and rusted on Laborites have completly lost the ability to use.
As for taking the conditions, as I said in the earlier post at least I fought for them, unlike most. 
Unfortunately your attitude is the very reason the unions and Labour are failing and will eventually disappear, no loyalty, no honesty, no integrity.


----------



## qldfrog (20 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Hey PZ99 thats a pretty good summery most here have never been working class or had to do it from the bottom being fcked over by employers or the system stagnate wages, conditions  while CEO 's boom etc, the continued naivety of applying 100 year old theology to present days is an intellectually deficit (Marxism etc ).
> 
> Understand you may not agree with my own position but I certainly understand yours.



I find this quite arrogant @iFocus,and probably really wrong

I doubt you ever did much crappier than my jobs cleaning iron pockets/smelter during annual maintenance, assembly line at Siemens or even my initial programming years here 55h or 60h a week inc Saturday  paid 37h
Working class here has had one of the best deal anywhere until globalisation.and has even been spared the millions of illegal immigrants competition common in Europe or the USA
But i worked and raised and went solo.
I actually think that forum is one where you will find a lot and i mean a lot of people who started low from the ground up and did make it to a decent position
Seriously, do you think any Silver spoon boy would have to worry about investing?
In short i believe you are doing  a really wrong assumption because it would  fits well with your narrative.
Now back to the subject


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

Ill clarify post 407, if your attitude and lack of loyalty, honesty and integrity is an example of todays unionists and Labour supporters, it is understandable that their followers are dwindling.


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Actually if you told the truth, you would have said, I voted for Gough, voted for Bob and didnt vote for Kev, Julia or Billy and I would still vote the same way.
> But you just write what you want, dont let the truth get in the way of your ego.
> Also as your post shows, truth and accuracy is something the union and rusted on Laborites have completly lost the ability to use.
> As for taking the conditions, as I said in the earlier post at least I fought for them, unlike most.
> Unfortunately your attitude is the very reason the unions and Labour are failing and will eventually disappear, no loyalty, no honesty, no integrity.




Hahaha pulls the integrity card out after the current lot of Libs who repeated verbatim the skullduggery
Hey Homer when you climb down from your high horse you should drop it off at Waynels for a service......needs re shoeing....


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

And you didn’t vote Keating
Blue collar complete with cravat 
Sounds like a modern day city lefty


----------



## Humid (20 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I find this quite arrogant @iFocus,and probably really wrong
> 
> I doubt you ever did much crappier than my jobs cleaning iron pockets/smelter during annual maintenance, assembly line at Siemens or even my initial programming years here 55h or 60h a week inc Saturday  paid 37h
> Working class here has had one of the best deal anywhere until globalisation.and has even been spared the millions of illegal immigrants competition common in Europe or the USA
> ...




MOST is the crucial word
Waiting to be offended is a bit lefty mate


----------



## sptrawler (15 January 2020)

Well we are starting to see the left wing talk over, bullying tactics start against the U.K, what a bunch of ar$e wipes.
Protecting those who fish in U.K waters?

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...tect-fishing-communities-in-post-brexit-talks

Some on this forum must be wondering, jeez maybe we are a bit over the top?

From the article:
_On the issue of fishing rights in British waters after Brexit, diplomats were told that beyond “sustainability and conservation” an objective of the EU would be protecting the often comparatively poor fishing towns and villages on the North Sea coast.

The UK has insisted that post-Brexit fishing policy in British waters would be determined by scientific advice and innovation in practices. The government has also stated in official communications that “market access for fisheries products is separate to the question of fishing opportunities and access to waters_”.

I wonder if Australia would be o.k with Asia telling them how many fish they could catch in our waters? I'm sure the Asians would love it.
I know from personal knowledge that some take quite a lot more, than is logically required, but it is a bit of an addiction they just love catching them. Throwing them back doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary, from what I've heard.
Left wing lunacy rules.
Go you pro stay in the EU chanters, it really is sad, that you move from one media instigated cause to another IMO.
Whatever happened to free thought and building your own opinion.
My rant for the week.


----------



## IFocus (16 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well we are starting to see the left wing talk over, bullying tactics start against the U.K, what a bunch of ar$e wipes.
> Protecting those who fish in U.K waters?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...tect-fishing-communities-in-post-brexit-talks





Who is the left you are talking about the EU?


----------



## Humid (16 January 2020)

IFocus said:


> Who is the left you are talking about the EU?



It has the word union in it
Types before engaging top paddock


----------



## wayneL (16 January 2020)

The Remoaning ****-weasels want to spoil the Brexit street party on the 31st.

True to form, the left cannot accept when they've had their @ss handed to them.


----------



## IFocus (17 January 2020)

Humid said:


> It has the word union in it
> Types before engaging top paddock




EU run by Germans and Frogs not left, EU president ex centre right German not left.........


----------



## dutchie (29 January 2020)

You know things are not well in Europe when French police are beating up their comrade fire fighters.
The firemen are protesting about pay and conditions.


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2020)

dutchie said:


> You know things are not well in Europe when French police are beating up their comrade fire fighters.
> The firemen are protesting about pay and conditions.



The EU is going to have all sorts of problems when the UK leaves, the underlying issues of lifters and leaners hasn't changed, it is just going to be more obvious without the UK. 
This in turn will put more pressure on the Euro, Germany just got the UK's bricks put in its backpack, so to speak.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2020)

OMG two days to go, January 31 UK out of the EU, the World ends for Britain.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (30 January 2020)

In Brussels overnight

Britain's ambassador to the EU handed documents formalising Brexit
The chamber sang a rendition of Auld Lang Syne, a traditional Scottish folk song of farewell
British flags will be removed from EU offices and the EU flag lowered on British premises

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...nt-approves-uks-withdrawal-agreement/11912078


----------



## wayneL (30 January 2020)

The Nige's farewell speech.


----------



## Logique (30 January 2020)

wayneL said:


> The Nige's farewell speech.



Brilliant, some cracker lines in there


----------



## Logique (30 January 2020)

I'm of sufficient vintage to recall the Antipodean resentment when Britain first entered the (then) Common Market.

The sense of abandonment, even betrayal that Australia and NZ felt, especially the dairy/ beef/ wool exporters, suddenly shut out.

How the wheel has turned. Roll on Free Trade Agreements!


----------



## noirua (31 January 2020)

Nigel Farage's final witty speech at the EU's Parliament:  https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli...ng+EU+speech&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


----------



## noirua (31 January 2020)




----------



## Logique (1 February 2020)

_"A crushing and historically resonating victory over the globalists.." .._Anon


----------



## noirua (1 February 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (1 February 2020)

Should we start sending boats of food and medecines to the UK now that they are going to starve and die of lack of Panadol?


----------



## noirua (1 February 2020)

As the UK moves to eventual ties with the United States, The Commonwealth, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Russia and China

Https://youtu.be/Px6GKO95WU4 - Dame Vera Lynn 'The White Cliffs Of Dover' + 'We'll Meet Again' 1984

Https://youtu.be/mj3mn8y5OHI - The Story Behind The Song Danny Boy

Https://youtu.be/8m8AHHduTM0 - Amazing Grace: The Story Behind the Song



Https://youtu.be/YaxGNQE5ZLA - The story of Francis Scott Key
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Scott_Key

Day, Britain! Australia eyes post-Brexit trade deal with UK before end of 2020
BORIS JOHNSON has received a huge boost after Australia said it wants to finalise a post-Brexit trade agreement with the UK before the end of 2020

Meanwhile, Australia is aiming to wrap up a trade agreement with post-Brexit UK by the end of the year, the country's trade minister has said. Simon Birmingham said Canberra wanted an agreement which 'essentially eliminated tariffs, quotas, trade barriers as much as is possible.
Https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-7951165/FTSE-LIVE-Australia-looking-quick-free-trade-deal-Formula-One-owner-buys-Aston-Martin-stake.html

Https://youtu.be/dVZzRY0X6_g - Hong Kong Handover Ceromony 1997

Https://youtu.be/TJ2D_ccUBIk - Putin Invites British Businessmen To Invest In Russia's New National Projects

Https://youtu.be/ZN4ZzNdwvCM - Britain, South Korea sign free trade deal ahead of Brexit

Https://youtu.be/tvlSvqzpoqc?list=TLPQMDEwMjIwMjCwPHNG_l1lkA - 0:48 / 1:40
#Brexit #UK #Japan
Brexit - UK and Japan unite for deal FAR BIGGER than EU


----------



## noirua (3 February 2020)

*Brexit news: Prospect of Britain being a competitor after leaving EU 'terrifies' Brussels, says Nigel Farage *
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...ge/ar-BBZzln2?MSCC=1580650933&ocid=spartandhp


----------



## sptrawler (4 February 2020)

U.K house prices, rise quickly after Brexit election.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...state-agents-cheer-boris-bounce-a4347721.html


----------



## wayneL (5 February 2020)

The best Hitler parody evah! Because is so close to the bone lol


----------



## sptrawler (19 February 2020)

Interesting surge of wage growth in the U.K., Labour want the wage threshold dropped to encourage skilled migrant workers to the U.K.

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/02/uk-labour-demands-migrant-slave-wages/
From the article:
_Labour said the “hostile environment” will make it hard to attract workers…

Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott said… “Ultimately, it will also be very difficult to attract the workers we need at all skill levels while the Tories’ hostile environment is in place. It needs to go”…

But Home Secretary Priti Patel said the new system would mean “the brightest and the best will be able to come to the United Kingdom”.

The government, which said it was aiming to reduce overall migration to the UK, wants a “points-based” immigration system – as it promised in its election manifesto.

Under the scheme, overseas workers who wanted to come to the UK would have to speak English and have the offer of a skilled job with an “approved sponsor”.

They would be awarded 50 points if they fulfil these criteria…

“It is important employers move away from a reliance on the UK’s immigration system as an alternative to investment in staff retention, productivity and wider investment in technology and automation,” it said_.
Labour’s faux concerns about skills shortages are also bunk.

_Except in very limited circumstances, there is no such thing as a shortage of labour. There is only a “shortage” of labour at the price/ wages firms are generally willing to pay.

The very purpose of migrant workers is to suppress wage growth by allowing employers to recruit from a global pool of labour to compete with local workers. Thus, if UK employers want to attract workers there is a simple solution: raise wages. This is how the “market” is supposed to function when their are shortages.

Allowing the mass importation of foreign workers will circumvent the ordinary functioning of the labour market by enabling employers to pluck cheap foreign workers in lieu of raising wages. It will also discourage employers from training locals in favour of hiring ready-made workers from overseas. This is deleterious for both workers and the broader economy.

The union movement should sue the “Labour” Party and demand they change its name. Because they no longer represent ordinary UK workers_.

It doesn't sound as though the U.K is imploding, it actually sounds as though things are bubbling along nicely, all the ranters and chanters seem to have moved on.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2020)

Boris goes into overdrive, the left will be wrapped.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...d-off-coronavirus-threat-20200312-p5497d.html
From the article:
_The Chancellor embraced several new "*pollution taxes*", *including levies on gas, diesel and plastic, saying that "radical" action would be required to meet Britain's net-zero 2050 pledge and risked another stoush with US President Donald Trump* by imposing a tax on big tech companies including Google, Facebook and Amazon.

Earlier on Wednesday, the Bank of England slashed interest rates by 50 basis points to the record low of 0.25 per cent in the first emergency cut since the financial crisis.


Delivering his first budget since his shock elevation into No. 11 Downing Street (Britain's Chancellor of the Exchequer residence), 39-year old Sunak said the country would recover from the economic shock but that times would get tough_.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

Now for the bickering, about who is going to stump up the money, that the U.K used to put into the EU slush fund.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-of-higher-eu-budget-share-shocking-1.4186014
From the article:
_French president Emmanuel Macron described Rutte’s unwillingness to swallow a bitter Brussels pill – increasing the Dutch share of the EU budget between 2021 and 2027 from €5 billion to an annual average of €6.9 billion – as “shocking”.
EU president Charles Michel weighed in as well. After a late-night meeting with Rutte and the leaders of Denmark, Austria and Sweden – the other three refuseniks – he could scarcely believe they were still holding out, declaring: “What arrogance!”

That same exasperation was evident when Spain’s Socialist prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, asked reporters: “Does Rutte realise that I represent more people than his Frugal Four all put together?”

Britain’s departure from the EU has left a gap of €75 billion over seven years in the EU’s finances – and those who remain have to fill it.
Or do they? Rutte – not unreasonably, given the degree to which money is squandered, according to the European Court of Auditors – favours a smaller budget, more efficiently applied_.


----------



## wayneL (24 March 2020)

The Poms have effectively torpedoed the EU. it's just a matter of how fast the whole damn ship sinks into oblivion now.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The Poms have effectively torpedoed the EU. it's just a matter of how fast the whole damn ship sinks into oblivion now.



Well the Germans are going to get sick of propping up the leaners, pretty quickly IMO, a union only works if the members pull their weight.
From what I posted it is obvious that some have been dragging the chain and the U.K was carrying them, funny how all the anti brexit group have gone mute.


----------



## Humid (24 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well the Germans are going to get sick of propping up the leaners, pretty quickly IMO, a union only works if the members pull their weight.
> From what I posted it is obvious that some have been dragging the chain and the U.K was carrying them, funny how all the anti brexit group have gone mute.




Ditto the pro Trump


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well the Germans are going to get sick of propping up the leaners, pretty quickly IMO, a union only works if the members pull their weight.
> From what I posted it is obvious that some have been dragging the chain and the U.K was carrying them, funny how all the anti brexit group have gone mute.



and the EU has been absolutely crap in handling this crisis, no global response just a shamble, even worse than the member states so people will remember:
EU= open gates to illegal migrants, move jobs to Romania and left the virus in
When anger will arrive, EU is out


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Ditto the pro Trump



I didn't realise you were anti brexit.
I think Trump will come out of this o.k, the working class love him.
Don't forget, he was the only one putting it up China.


----------



## Humid (24 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't realise you were anti brexit.
> I think Trump will come out of this o.k, the working class love him.
> Don't forget, he was the only one putting it up China.




Couldn’t understand Brexit from a workers point of view 
I like to keep the work for locals and train people for the shortfalls


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Couldn’t understand Brexit from a workers point of view
> I like to keep the work for locals and train people for the shortfalls



The problem with being in the EU, my cousin in U.K told me was, European workers would come in a group and just take all the locals work.
My cousin, who is a truck driver, or lorry driver as he would call it, couldn't wait to get out of the EU.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 April 2020)

Boris has gone to hospital as he is struggling to recover from Covid19. He was bragging he shook hands with everyone a month ago.

I think he is one of those people who have never been sick. Learning the hard way now. He is 55.

Hope he gets through it. They really need him.


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Boris has gone to hospital as he is struggling to recover from Covid19. He was bragging he shook hands with everyone a month ago.
> 
> I think he is one of those people who have never been sick. Learning the hard way now. He is 55.
> 
> Hope he gets through it. They really need him.



China will really be up to sht if a world leader dies. Hopefully he gets through it.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> China will really be up to sht if a world leader dies. Hopefully he gets through it.



I've got a bad feeling about this, I sincerely hope I'm wrong. 

Especially Boris, moXJO, who seems to have captured a Churchillian essence... It would be beyond tragic for the UK if he did not survive this.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> I've got a bad feeling about this, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Especially Boris, moXJO, who seems to have captured a Churchillian essence... It would be beyond tragic for the UK if he did not survive this.





Not a great fan of Boris and certainly a stretch to equate with Churchill unlike the Australian political leadership there has been a lot of confusion to the start of the UKs position against the virus outbreak .

Still infinitely better than their cousins in the US.

But tragically any lives lost from this pandemic is terrible and he would be a great loss being such a great character on the world's stage.


----------



## Logique (7 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> I've got a bad feeling about this, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
> Especially Boris, moXJO, who seems to have captured a Churchillian essence... It would be beyond tragic for the UK if he did not survive this.



Boris is the very definition of "irreplaceable". Not just the UK - the globe.
History will judge Boris. I think he's going alright, if not the perfect PM.  Skip the climate change posturing Boris, we have enough already to frighten us. 
But Brexit was a landmark achievement


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> China will really be up to sht if a world leader dies. Hopefully he gets through it.



Boris unified the working class, it will leave a huge vacuum if he goes, no doubt there will be another push by the multi nationals to rescind Brexit and get the cheap labour back in.


----------



## wayneL (8 April 2020)

If reports are to be believed, it seems as if Boris is going ok.


----------



## macca (8 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> If reports are to be believed, it seems as if Boris is going ok.




The UK really needs him to make it, they can rearrange things at the next election if they wish but right now steady as she goes is best


----------



## Humid (10 May 2020)

Haven’t heard much from the Boris fan club lately......has something happened?


----------



## wayneL (10 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Haven’t heard much from the Boris fan club lately......has something happened?




UK Labour elects the most uninspiring leader in their history, not that they had much choice, it was either a poor facsimile of Blair or outright commos.

Boris to be in power ad infinitum.

WTO exit getting more and more likely.

Other EU nations getting itchy feet too.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Haven’t heard much from the Boris fan club lately......has something happened?



There only tends to be a lot of activity when negative sentiment is strong, as in before brexit, now that it is bedded down the conversation turns to the next issue.
That is of course unless it is Trump, who manages to receive attention all the time, but even he will receive less attention if he is re elected.
Just human nature, when people are happy they don't complain.
By the way, it is the anti Boris club that has moved on, looking for the next issue to bitch about.
It sounds as though they have become the pro China club, we will see how that works out, there is a common link anti Trump, anti Boris, anti Scomo, pro China.


----------



## Humid (10 May 2020)

Th


sptrawler said:


> There only tends to be a lot of activity when negative sentiment is strong, as in before brexit, now that it is bedded down the conversation turns to the next issue.
> That is of course unless it is Trump, who manages to receive attention all the time, but even he will receive less attention if he is re elected.
> Just human nature, when people are happy they don't complain.
> By the way, it is the anti Boris club that has moved on, looking for the next issue to bitch about.
> It sounds as though they have become the pro China club, we will see how that works out, there is a common link anti Trump, anti Boris, anti Scomo, pro China.




Don't spose the 30k dead would complain
Blame the health minister but in Oz praise the PM


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Th
> 
> 
> Don't spose the 30k dead would complain
> Blame the health minister but in Oz praise the PM



The PM only took the advice of the experts, I don't think he can take much of the credit, but at least he did take the advice rather than react to public and media opinion.
So I suppose there is that we should be grateful for, at least in Aus it wasn't policy on the run, or back of a napkin.


----------



## wayneL (10 May 2020)

30,000/70,000,000

=0.043%


----------



## wayneL (10 May 2020)

wayneL said:


> 30,000/70,000,000
> 
> =0.043%



That's about 430 parts per million, almost the same as carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

That's spooky!


----------



## Humid (10 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The PM only took the advice of the experts, I don't think he can take much of the credit, but at least he did take the advice rather than react to public and media opinion.
> So I suppose there is that we should be grateful for, at least in Aus it wasn't policy on the run, or back of a napkin.




Not sure if you noticed but there's been a shortage of napkins/paper towel and date roll could have something to do with it


----------



## Humid (10 May 2020)

wayneL said:


> 30,000/70,000,000
> 
> =0.043%



Your right there only poms


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Your right there only poms



*they're


----------



## Humid (11 May 2020)

It's called BHP because no one hear can spell it


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2020)

Humid said:


> It's called BHP because no one hear can spell it



Is it aitch or haitch?


----------



## Humid (11 May 2020)

You no it’s a hur....


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

Interesting state of play with U.K and Brexit, E.U still wants fishing rights to stay in place, so a bit of a stalemate. Australia, U.S and U.K will be in a trading partnership by the end of 2021 IMO. Could be some pain in the air, over the short term, interesting times.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...he-band-aid-off-approach-20200515-p54ti2.html


----------



## basilio (22 May 2020)

How the British exit from the EU fulfills long term strategic objectives.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2020)

basilio said:


> How the British exit from the EU fulfills long term strategic objectives.





Guess what bas has been watching in his confinement !

Amazing how Yes Minister is still so relevant.


----------



## basilio (22 May 2020)

Actually I was doing some maths revision for my students.  
Found some creative new ways to explain division, multiplication and addition.


----------



## noirua (24 May 2020)

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nigel-farage/


----------



## noirua (24 May 2020)

The UK is Australia's eighth largest trading partner, with two-way trade valued at $26.9 billion in 2018. Investment is a cornerstone of our relationship, with the UK being the second-largest source of total foreign investment in Australia, valued at $574.8 billion in 2018.
https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/prospective/aukfta/Pages/australia-uk-fta


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2020)

The EU seems to be in more trouble than the U.K.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the...-as-italy-faces-a-crisis-20200727-p55fo0.html


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The EU seems to be in more trouble than the U.K.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/business/the...-as-italy-faces-a-crisis-20200727-p55fo0.html



There is no way a monetary union can function without fiscal union... and fiscal union cannot work across Europe.

EU is doomed.


----------



## sptrawler (7 September 2020)

I suppose the virus and lockdowns, have given a real life indication of the with drawl effects in the U.K, it certainly looks to have cemented the resolve.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...if-no-deal-by-october-15-20200907-p55syy.html
From the article:
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson talked tough on Sunday (Monday AEST) ahead of a crucial round of post-Brexit trade talks with the European Union, saying Britain could walk away from the talks within weeks and insisting that a no-deal exit would be a “good outcome for the UK.”
With talks deadlocked, Johnson said an agreement would only be possible if EU negotiators are prepared to “rethink their current positions.”
The EU, in turn, accuses Britain of failing to negotiate seriously.

The key sticking points are European boats’ access to UK fishing waters and state aid to industries. The EU is determined to ensure a “level playing field” for competition so British firms can’t undercut the bloc’s environmental or workplace standards or pump public money into UK industries.
Frost told the _Mail on Sunday_ newspaper that Britain was “not going to compromise on the fundamentals of having control over our own laws.”
“We are not going to accept level playing field provisions that lock us in to the way the EU do things,” he said.

The EU says a deal has to be struck before November to allow time for parliamentary approval and legal vetting before the transition period expires.
Johnson gave an even shorter deadline, saying an agreement needed to be sealed by an EU summit scheduled for October 15.
“If we can’t agree by then, then I do not see that there will be a free trade agreement between us, and we should both accept that and move on,” he said.
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Sunday that talks were “not going well” and dismissed British attempts to drive a wedge between EU nations on issues such as fishing. Le Drian said the 27 nations remained united.

“We would prefer a deal, but a deal on the basis of our mandate,” he told France Inter radio. “There is room for action, but the whole package, including the fishing package, needs to be taken up in order to avoid a ‘no deal.’”


----------



## Knobby22 (7 September 2020)

Yes, Go Boris.
The EU still seem to think they are in a position of strength. 

Boris is right to reject their demands for fishing rights, immigration and state aid.
A hard Brexit may hurt the UK a little but with the Eurocrats acting as they are it is the right thing to do.

In the long term they won't regret it.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, Go Boris.
> The EU still seem to think they are in a position of strength.
> 
> Boris is right to reject their demands for fishing rights, immigration and state aid.
> ...



As long as no one mentions the War. 

gg


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 September 2020)

Yep, what entitlement does an island have to fishing rights?!


----------



## sptrawler (7 September 2020)

Yes the only problem now is the media's resentment, that they got it wrong at the last election, so now I suppose they have to start and warm up for the next one.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...ppened-to-the-british-pm-20200902-p55ru3.html
From the article:
_Boris Johnson has lost his mojo. The great showman of British politics doesn't quite look or sound like his usual self. He comes across as unsure, hostage to events and devoid of an overarching strategy. His critics argue that a political animal who spent two decades carving a path to Downing Street now governs like the dog that caught the car_.

Ah the press don't you love them? I can see the mob starting to get the pitchforks out of the cupboard and calling their friends.


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2020)

Here is another example of the media trying as hard as possible to influence readers, BIG BROTHER is here, "you will do as we say, you will be told what to think, what to say, how to act".
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...son-trump-president-elected-britain-democracy

Jeez what a sermon, for all the Brits who voted for Boris, obviously the Guardian is upset.
It is a shame the media doesn't accept the word of the people, funny world we heading into, if the media don't like who you voted for, they just keep finding different ways to tell you, you are wrong.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 September 2020)

Its just an opinion peace, on a left wing paper, not particularly insightful, just panning to their readers  I don't think it is particularly nasty to him but trying to suggest he will lose votes.

I don't know why you take it so seriously SP.

If you want I am sure I could get a similar piece from the Murdoch press suggesting the direct opposite


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Its just an opinion peace, on a left wing paper, not particularly insightful, just panning to their readers  I don't think it is particularly nasty to him but trying to suggest he will lose votes.
> 
> I don't know why you take it so seriously SP.
> 
> If you want I am sure I could get a similar piece from the Murdoch press suggesting the direct opposite



I just find it annoying, that the press on all sides, now seem to want to agitate on every level.
I think it causes a lot of social upheaval, unrest and anxiety, the media IMO has become a source of depression for most people. 
Unfortunately a lot of people seem to be drawn to doom and gloom, so the media constantly serves it up, it would be interesting to see the media carry out an experiment of putting a positive spin on news and reporting. 
I think it would do a lot, to improve the mental health of people in general.


----------



## qldfrog (10 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> If you want I am sure I could get a similar piece from the Murdoch press suggesting the direct opposite



I somewhat believe it will be actually hard to find it.
10y ir so, you had a kind of balance with Guardian crap matched by similar from as you say the Murdoch side.
Lately, the Murdoch side or at least the one we got access to here in Australia has join the brainwashed 
I know they do sometimes post some news hinting at the covid restrictions being overblown or even looking at the notion of individual freedom but that's as far as i can see.probably enough to be classified as far right for many here
The crap vs crap balance was already unhealthy, but now it is really dangerous
Remember we are living in a country which we are prevented to leave by our own government ..put that into perspective and imagine that anywhere in the world 10y ago...
It is not PC madness any more but another slippery descent.


----------



## noirua (23 September 2020)

Early 2019 but comments are probably as relevant as the £sterling creeps downwards. Talk on the Belize company CIHL proved correct now at 58p against 16p then. Wrong on negative talk about Tesla as they rocketed despite falling 12% today on the US afterhours-market.


----------



## noirua (16 October 2020)

__





						Boris Johnson says it's time to 'get ready' for no deal with EU
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2020)

The stumbling block appears to be fishing rights, the EU wants to have open and free access to the UK waters for fishing.


----------



## noirua (20 October 2020)

*Brexit: Boris Johnson turns down EU offer to restart trade talks*




__





						Brexit: EU not serious about restarting trade talks, says minister
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## sptrawler (20 October 2020)

noirua said:


> *Brexit: Boris Johnson turns down EU offer to restart trade talks*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the EU is going to struggle to fund the leaners, or should that read, I think Germany is going to struggle to fund them.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (26 October 2020)

Britain and the European Union are still a long way from a post-Brexit trade deal, several European sources told AFP Sunday, as both sides prepared to resume talks this week.


> “The negotiations are progressing, but we are still a long way off,” said one senior European official.




Talks are to continue in London until Wednesday, then in Brussels from Thursday, said another source.

But time is fast running out.

France’s Europe Minister Clement Beaune said last week that the EU wanted to wrap up the discussions by October 31 to leave enough time for parliamentary ratification across the bloc’s 27 member states.


----------



## noirua (30 November 2020)

Sometime during the late 1970s.








						Enoch Powell - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## noirua (3 December 2020)

Joe Biden says trade agreements are not a priority, in blow to Boris Johnson’s hopes of a post-Brexit deal (msn.com)
Mr Biden’s interview with the _New York Times_ appeared to underline why he has always been viewed as less likely to rush into an agreement with the UK than Donald Trump, who has been a vocal enthusiast.


----------



## noirua (4 December 2020)

Boris Johnson must give up on fishing: it's the only way to get a Brexit deal
		

The reality, which Britain refuses to admit, is that Brexit is not about rectitude but power. In Washington, president-elect Joe Biden said this week that he has no interest in an urgent trade deal with Britain, but rather that he must concentrate on his own economy. Likewise, the EU is more concerned with recovering from coronavirus than worrying over Johnson’s self-inflicted Brexit wounds.


----------



## noirua (7 December 2020)

Brexit: There's Still No Trade Deal. Here's What Happens Now (msn.com) 

But following a late night and intense discussions over the remaining differences – fishing quotas, fair competition rules and how to resolve disputes – there is still deadlock, with France threatening to veto a deal.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

Interesting article on the state of play and history repeating.








						Europe brought down six Tory PMs. Will Boris Johnson be next?
					

The next few days will determine whether the British Prime Minister can finally break the curse of the EU.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## noirua (11 December 2020)

Brexit: Boris Johnson warns of 'strong possibility' of no trade deal with EU – live updates | Politics | The Guardian

In case you’re just joining us, the prime minister *Boris Johnson* has warned there is a “strong possibility” that the *UK* will fail to broker a trade deal with the *EU* as he urged the public to prepare for the end of the Brexit transition period.









						Which foods will be affected by Brexit?
					

Would a no-deal Brexit mean food shortages?




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## noirua (12 December 2020)

Australian-Style Brexit 'Will Be Pretty Disappointing', Ex-PM Malcolm Turnbull Warns (msn.com) 

Turnbull continued: “We [Australia] obviously are dealing with WTO terms. And there are really some very large barriers to Australian trade with Europe which we’re seeking to address as we negotiate a free trade agreement with Europe


----------



## noirua (12 December 2020)

__





						Who is Ursula von der Leyen, European Commission President who may determine Brexit
					





					www.msn.com
				




On the face of it, they could not be more different - tousled, performatively chaotic Boris Johnson and the elegant European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen -  her hair regally coiffed into a style of elaborate flicks and maximum root lift (think Margaret Thatcher with a hint of the late Princess Diana’s glossiness).









						Ursula von der Leyen - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						The inconvenient truth about Ursula von der Leyen
					

The woman nominated for Commission chief has plenty of critics back home.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## dutchie (15 December 2020)

The EU has no morals.

*EU Supertrawlers Ravage British Waters Ahead of Brexit, Kill Dolphins, Porpoises, Seals*

*








						EU Supertrawlers Ravage British Waters Ahead of Brexit, Kill Dolphins
					

A surge of giant supertrawlers from the EU are devastating Britain's territorial waters, including marine protected areas, as Brexit looms.




					www.breitbart.com
				



*


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

dutchie said:


> The EU has no morals.
> 
> *EU Supertrawlers Ravage British Waters Ahead of Brexit, Kill Dolphins, Porpoises, Seals*
> 
> ...



It was dumb of the U.K to join the EU in the first place, they obviously had no confidence in the model, or they would have adopted the currency.
Now they have France telling them what to do, Winston Churchill would be turning in his grave, like it was a rotisserie.


----------



## moXJO (15 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It was dumb of the U.K to join the EU in the first place, they obviously had no confidence in the model, or they would have adopted the currency.
> Now they have France telling them what to do, Winston Churchill would be turning in his grave, like it was a rotisserie.



So much for their "eco-friendly" bs spiel.
Once you scratch the surface, its greed greed greed.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> So much for their "eco-friendly" bs spiel.
> Once you scratch the surface, its greed greed greed.



I can't wait to see how long before Germany cuts the string.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

You have to love the French don't you, if they can't fish in your waters, they will block your trucks from entering France. The U.K was stupid to get involved with the EU, in the first place.
French fishermen will set up BLOCKADES to UK vessels in No Deal Brexit (msn.com)
From the article:

French fishermen have warned they will set up blockades to stop British vessels from 'supplying the French market' in the event of a No Deal Brexit. 

They said they would respond to having 'zero access' to UK waters by blocking ships carrying vital goods from entering major ports such as Calais.


The warning comes as the UK government is refusing to bow to 'outlandish' demands by France for EU vessels to be allowed the right to large quota of fish from British waters after the UK leaves on January 1.

Fishing rights in UK waters is one of the last remaining sticking points in the free trade talks that are on the brink of collapse. 

Alongside the four Royal Navy gunboats on standby, reports also suggested military helicopter surveillance will be made available and that ministers are considering beefing-up Navy powers in legislation to authorise them to board vessels and arrest fishermen found to be contravening post-Brexit rules.


----------



## noirua (22 December 2020)

Brexit news – live: Boris Johnson rejects calls to extend transition amid border and virus chaos (msn.com)


----------



## noirua (23 December 2020)

Brexit deal before Christmas? Talks on trade agreement hinge on fish 'worth less than Paul Pogba' | Daily Mail Online

Hopes were growing today of a Brexit deal before Christmas amid reports that the final hurdle is fish worth the equivalent of a good Premier League footballer's transfer fee.


----------



## noirua (24 December 2020)

Sikh charity delivers Dominor's pizzas and curries to stranded lorry drivers | Daily Mail Online

*Operation Feed the Truckers: Sikh charity and local football club deliver thousands of pizzas and curries to stranded drivers facing Christmas in their cabs*


----------



## noirua (25 December 2020)

UK and EU 'are haggling over every fish' despite deal all-but DONE | Daily Mail Online
*Brexit deal is DONE: Boris Johnson seals historic agreement with EU with propaganda war ALREADY raging as UK claims to have won TWICE as many concessions as Brussels*


*Boris Johnson has finally confirmed that a post-Brexit trade deal has been agreed with the European Union *


----------



## Knobby22 (25 December 2020)

Christmas present of finally getting Brexit for Britain Its taken over 4 years I think. I will give Boris points for being hard nosed.


----------



## sptrawler (25 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Christmas present of finally getting Brexit for Britain Its taken over 4 years I think. I will give Boris points for being hard nosed.



Well having France tell everyone what to do, would have been unacceptable, sounds like a 5 year fishing amnesty has been agreed upon.


----------



## wayneL (25 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Christmas present of finally getting Brexit for Britain Its taken over 4 years I think. I will give Boris points for being hard nosed.



In reality, the UK were holding the best hand, even with the remoaners working against their own country


----------



## sptrawler (25 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> In reality, the UK were holding the best hand, even with the remoaners working against their own country



Spot on Wayne, the U.K is the E.U's biggest customer.


----------



## IFocus (26 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Christmas present of finally getting Brexit for Britain Its taken over 4 years I think. I will give Boris points for being hard nosed.




Looking like a worse deal than what May achieved and was rejected could well end up a noose for Boris still will take a few years to play out.

One thing about the Brits when it comes to politicians the are all happy to feed off the carcass of their leaders god bless them.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> Looking like a worse deal than what May achieved and was rejected could well end up a noose for Boris still will take a few years to play out.
> 
> One thing about the Brits when it comes to politicians the are all happy to feed off the carcass of their leaders god bless them.



Is it? I am eagerly awaiting an analysis. 
Just read the headlines.


----------



## IFocus (26 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Is it? I am eagerly awaiting an analysis.
> Just read the headlines.





Both sides will need to look like winners and agree devil in the detail analysis unfortunately puff and wind in the headlines.


----------



## sptrawler (27 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Is it? I am eagerly awaiting an analysis.
> Just read the headlines.



I'm with you on that, however I will be surprised if Boris makes it to the next election, now the media has finished with Trump all guns will be blazing for Boris.
Then it will be Morrison's turn, IMO it will be too obvious to attack both Johnson and Morrison together, just my opinion but time will tell.


----------



## moXJO (27 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I'm with you on that, however I will be surprised if Boris makes it to the next election, now the media has finished with Trump all guns will be blazing for Boris.
> Then it will be Morrison's turn, IMO it will be too obvious to attack both Johnson and Morrison together, just my opinion but time will tell.



Morrison is taking flak on Twitter in similarities to what was used on Trump. Seen it creep onto news site comments. Looks like paid/activist comments.


----------



## basilio (22 January 2021)

The impact of Brexit on trade and industry across the UK is "challenging" . More accurately however was the following description.
Impact on UK economic activity is horrendous.









						'A multiple pile-up in the fog': wine agent's fury at Brexit red tape
					

Daniel Lambert blasts government and on Twitter castigates bureaucratic procedures




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Britons buying from EU websites hit with £100 customs bills
					

Parcel firms demanding payment before delivering items ordered from European websites since Brexit




					www.theguardian.com
				











						'Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules
					

Freight company director blames new requirement for EU transport firms to provide VAT and tariff guarantees




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (23 January 2021)

basilio said:


> The impact of Brexit on trade and industry across the UK is "challenging" . More accurately however was the following description.
> Impact on UK economic activity is horrendous.
> 
> 
> ...



That's expected. It was never going to be a bed of roses


----------



## basilio (23 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> That's expected. It was never going to be a bed of roses




Funny. I have absolutely no recollection of these types of difficulties being acknowledged by the Brexit movement. Nah it was all gunna be sweet..

And Remainers who pointed out that leaving the EU with its open borders and agreed protocols *meant *being a different country which had to go through all the processes of entry and exit were overrun and ignored.


----------



## moXJO (23 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Funny. I have absolutely no recollection of these types of difficulties being acknowledged by the Brexit movement. Nah it was all gunna be sweet..
> 
> And Remainers who pointed out that leaving the EU with its open borders and agreed protocols *meant *being a different country which had to go through all the processes of entry and exit were overrun and ignored.



It was mentioned over and over. You yourself  brought up a lot of articles with the issues. Why on earth would you think that such a huge transition wouldn't have issues?

Eventually those issues get sorted though and your nation isn't under the thumb of greedy politicians from multiple EU zones.


----------



## basilio (23 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> It was mentioned over and over. You yourself  brought up a lot of articles with the issues. Why on earth would you think that such a huge transition wouldn't have issues?
> 
> Eventually those issues get sorted though and your nation isn't under the thumb of greedy politicians from multiple EU zones.




Just. Totally.Ignored.The.Point. As. Usual..

*In no universe *did the Brexit Bullshitters freely acknowledge the massive problems facing England as a "free" country that now has to come to terms with the inevitable friction of trade and passage into/out of the EU. These were always disputed, denied or derided. 

Of course the truckies, exporters and travellers can "sort the issues". Unfortunately many of them will simply not be economically sorting them with the EU community. The figures will not work. That was always the issue of walking away from a Common Market with agreed universal rules and  instant easy access.

And a nice little throwaway piece of poison to finish off.


----------



## moXJO (24 January 2021)

Ohh so you just wanted to pi$$ and moan because your enemies on the right must be crushed. Not the fact that you would have to be completely stupid to think that "there would be no problems". Actually I think the blanket statement that "no brexit supporters mentioned the consequences" as brainless as the previous statement. Keep going though with your partisan flavoured bs though. God knows where you lap this rubbish up


----------



## sptrawler (24 January 2021)

Any massive change will have issues, it is whether the change brings about a better outcome in the long term, doing nothing only means the constant slide continues.
But from what I'm hearing many appear to like the idea of falling living standards and the gap between rich and poor becoming bigger, I guess if a person is on the right side of the equation all is good.
That is obviously why the rich are turning to the left parties and the working class is moving to the right.


----------



## basilio (25 January 2021)

When a country is led down a disastrous  economic path with long term outcomes that will cost many billions of pounds and economic constrictions *on a total lie. *then pretending the new reality is actually ok is just another lie.

The Brexit bill is emerging rapidly. The well predicated economic consequences of turning a frictionless economic  situation into millions of complex, costly transactions are unfolding.  It's something to consider when making investment decisions on UK based companies.

The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep​Andrew Rawnsley





Ministers say it is just teething trouble. To many businesses it feels more like root canal surgery without the benefit of anaesthetic

( In Summary)
_Some did understand that there would be a price to be paid. One of them was Boris Johnson. He knew enough about the importance of this issue to fib about it. On Christmas Eve, when he was hailing his agreement with the EU as a fantastic new chapter in our island story, he claimed that “there will be no non-tariff barriers to trade”.

This was self-evidently untrue even at the time that he said it. His government accepts that companies will collectively need to employ 50,000 additional customs agents in a post-Brexit world. Industry figures suggest that less than a quarter of that number had been trained by the time Britain left the single market.

The HMRC estimates that Brexit demands that British companies complete 215m additional, often highly complex, documents a year with a mirroring amount of extra paperwork also being generated by EU counter-parties. The cost of that alone on British businesses is thought to be around £7bn a year. If you make exporting and importing more difficult and more sluggish, at the same time as making cross-border transactions a great deal more costly, then it stands to reason that there will be less trade.

Faced with the heavy burdens imposed by Brexit, some companies will stop exporting to the EU because they can no longer find any profit in it. Other companies will move elements of their operations – and, in some cases, all of their business – out of the UK to inside the EU. Investment, jobs and tax revenues that would have benefited the UK will in future go to countries in the EU instead. This is already happening. Other companies will simply find that Brexit has left them unviable. Overwhelmed by the new costs, they will go to the wall. That will be especially so for those who were already struggling to survive because of the coronavirus crisis.

British business lost to European competitors. British entrepreneurs crushed. British jobs exported abroad. Welcome to the Brexit._









						The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep | Andrew Rawnsley
					

Ministers say it is just teething trouble. To many businesses it feels more like root canal surgery without the benefit of anaesthetic




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2021)

Hasn't taken long to move on to Boris @basilio, I suppose we can look forward to endless posts from the Guardian, until they switch to Morrison.


----------



## basilio (25 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hasn't taken long to move on to Boris @basilio, I suppose we can look forward to endless posts from the Guardian, until they switch to Morrison.




Let's not be too particular SP.  Boris wasn't the only pusher of Brexit.  He had a ton of  Tory assistants who pushed the Brexit process and allowed the misrepresentations and lies to stand.

In one sense there is no use crying over spilled milk. But maybe it's worth remembering who threw the whole dairy into the ditch in the name of   'Freedom and Sovereignty'  and asking if they should continue to be entrusted with political power.

And certainly if you feel that the articles I reference on the  outcomes of Brexit are overstating the case feel free to show otherwise.


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2021)

basilio said:


> And certainly if you feel that the articles I reference on the  outcomes of Brexit are overstating the case feel free to show otherwise.



The problem is Bas we wont know if the articles are overstated for a few years, currently the virus is going to be skewing figures anyway, but they will be used to suit the purpose of those who write the article.
IMO it will be interesting to compare how things are travelling in the U.K in five years, how anyone can take a snapshot now is pure stupidity and nonsense IMO. 
Let's be honest it has been five weeks, also most changes aren't enacted for 12 months.


----------



## sptrawler (28 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Let's not be too particular SP.  Boris wasn't the only pusher of Brexit.  He had a ton of  Tory assistants who pushed the Brexit process and allowed the misrepresentations and lies to stand.
> 
> In one sense there is no use crying over spilled milk. But maybe it's worth remembering who threw the whole dairy into the ditch in the name of   'Freedom and Sovereignty'  and asking if they should continue to be entrusted with political power.
> 
> And certainly if you feel that the articles I reference on the  outcomes of Brexit are overstating the case feel free to show otherwise.



This article, exemplifies why the U.K wanted out of the EU, it is either the EU's way, or the highway. It is like dealing with some on the forum. 👍








						Vaccine supply fight escalates as EU demands millions of doses from UK
					

“We reject the logic of first come, first served,” the EU’s Health Commissioner, Stella Kyriakides said.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
*London:* A bitter row which threatens to disrupt vaccine shipments to Australia has morphed into a post-Brexit stand-off, with European Union officials demanding immediate delivery of tens of millions of doses manufactured in Britain.

Under growing pressure to explain the sluggish vaccine rollout in the EU’s 27 member countries, officials insisted on Wednesday they were contractually entitled to vials produced at factories in Britain to make up for a shortfall on the Continent.

EU officials also brushed aside arguments from AstraZeneca that the United Kingdom was only getting a reliable supply because it signed deals three months earlier than the EU.

“We reject the logic of first come, first served,” the EU’s Health Commissioner, Stella Kyriakides, told reporters in Brussels.

“That might work at the neighbourhood butchers, but not in contracts and not in our advanced purchase agreements.”
The EU has already slapped export controls on vaccines produced within their territory in a move designed to force the pharmaceutical companies into reserving more doses for the bloc.

The new requirement, which effectively means producers must ask for permission before shipping vials outside the region, will at the very least slow the distribution process.

Some MPs want the European Commission to go even further and deny approval for vaccines to leave the region for third countries like Australia.
“The contract with the UK was signed first and the UK, of course, said ‘you supply us first’, and this is fair enough,” he said.

Soriot apologised for the delays but said European leaders were under pressure and “emotional”.
Soriot’s interview was seen as a demolition of many of the EU’s claims and insight into the bloc’s vaccine procurement failures.

He also said vaccines for Europe would only be produced at plants in the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and Germany.

The EU denied this and said AstraZeneca was under a contractual commitment to use vaccines made in British plants to meet agreed delivery volumes in Europe.

A spokesman for Australian Health Minister Greg Hunt said the country was in a “strong position”because of its deal to manufacture 50 million doses of the AstraZeneca product in Melbourne.


----------



## basilio (29 January 2021)

The deterioration of trade in and out of the UK as a result of Brexit  is causing extreme concern amongst the major business organisations. 

_The business groups said: “A range of problems were discussed, including the substantial difficulties faced by firms adapting to the new customs processes, sizeable obstacles to moving goods through the Dover-Calais route and the shortage of informed advice from both government and specialist advisers alongside a number of others.”

*They warned that grace periods agreed with the EU would expire over the next two months at a time when cross-border traffic, which is usually low in January, was due to grow*. Unless measures were put in place to smooth customs procedures, the situation would deteriorate, they said._









						Brexit: British business leaders warn of 'substantial difficulties' at UK ports
					

Letter says government needs to act quickly to resolve customs issues faced by exporters following Brexit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2021)

basilio said:


> The deterioration of trade in and out of the UK as a result of Brexit  is causing extreme concern amongst the major business organisations.
> 
> _The business groups said: “A range of problems were discussed, including the substantial difficulties faced by firms adapting to the new customs processes, sizeable obstacles to moving goods through the Dover-Calais route and the shortage of informed advice from both government and specialist advisers alongside a number of others.”
> 
> ...



It is no different to  the trade tensions between us and China, the bullies arent happy, there isnt many refugees trying to stop in Europe, same as there arent many boat people heading to China.
I just wish people would use their brains and think past the headlines.
But I dont think that will happen, hopefully our kids can think for themselves and I think the teachers are alerting them to that fact.


----------



## noirua (31 January 2021)

UK and EU at War Over Coronavirus Vaccine:








						TOP NEWS: EU Under Growing Criticism Despite Vaccine Controls U-Turn | Financial News
					

TOP NEWS: EU Under Growing Criticism Despite Vaccine Controls U-Turn | Financial News




					www.lse.co.uk


----------



## bellenuit (12 February 2021)

Amsterdam overtakes London as European share trading hub: FD​








						Amsterdam overtakes London as European share trading hub: FT - DutchNews.nl
					

Amsterdam has overtaken London as Europe’s top share trading hub with a fourfold increase in business in January, the Financial Times reported on Thursday. The paper says an average of €9.2bn in shares a day were traded on the Amsterdam Amsterdam Euronext, CBOE Europe and Turquoise exchanges in...




					www.dutchnews.nl


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 February 2021)

From a practical perspective as investors I think we need to face the real reality of what this and quite a few other things are about.

Globalisation peaked roughly 13 years ago and the new trend is localisation, hard borders and so on.

That doesn't mean all trade stops but the trend is toward doing things locally and we're seeing that with quite a few things now. UK, US and so on and that won't be the last.


----------



## sptrawler (12 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> From a practical perspective as investors I think we need to face the real reality of what this and quite a few other things are about.
> 
> Globalisation peaked roughly 13 years ago and the new trend is localisation, hard borders and so on.
> 
> That doesn't mean all trade stops but the trend is toward doing things locally and we're seeing that with quite a few things now. UK, US and so on and that won't be the last.



I think the last bastion of the previous thinking is coming to an end, even the multinationals realise they have very little influence on the emerging order, so it will be in their best interest to throttle it all back.
Trump just brought it to a head, the rest will automatically unfold.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (13 February 2021)

I actually wouldnt be surprised if the chip shortage, is because the chip manufacturing is being dismantled.lol


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

Interesting analysis, now the dust has settled and the real statistics come out. From the Guardian.


			Half of Brexit supporters were not ‘left behind’ red wall voters
		

From the article

The notion that the typical Brexit supporter was a working-class voter “left behind” in a red-wall constituency or dilapidated seaside town has been upended by research that shows half of leave voters were comfortably well off.
They did not have huge expectations of “sunlit uplands” or economic gains but believed that leaving the EU was an opportunity to address a perceived loss of industry, community services and national pride.
The research, by UK in a Changing Europe, drew on workshops conducted by the NatCen Social Research in the summer of 2020 and will shed fresh light on the motivations and aspirations of the typical Brexiter in Britain and how they might adapt to the changed political landscape.
It found that while it was true that many leavers faced sharp economic challenges, almost half were relatively well off.
A quarter of the leave vote could be categorised as “economically deprived, anti-immigration with monthly household income of less than £2,200 a month. A third of leave supporters were older working class, with an average age of 71.

However, almost half were “affluent eurosceptics” who shared the domestic priorities of the poorer cohort – they wanted further investment in police, the NHS and care workers and “proper, secure work for high-quality domestic production, as well as apprenticeship in real jobs”, says the briefing paper.
“Many of the comfortable leavers liked where they lived, they spoke about access to green spaces, shopping malls and local amenities but were aware of areas close by where they saw problems of crime and anti-social behaviour, a lack of opportunities for young people and loss of local manufacturing industry. They believed that Brexit would free up funding for some of this investment,” the researchers report.

Their views on immigration were more nuanced than the leave narrative suggests and were “most scathing” about British people on benefits who refused to do the jobs migrants would do.
National pride was a strong identifier for comfortable leavers with little support for devolution.

“The expectations and hopes for the post-Brexit world among comfortable leavers show a nostalgic optimism that leaving the EU (and the pandemic) might be a catalyst for change, but a change that could restore industries, services and a sense of pride from an earlier era,” concludes the report.


----------



## Humid (29 May 2021)

A dangerous cult now runs Britain – the worshippers at the Temple of Johnson | Marina Hyde
					

No matter what the prime minister does, no matter the consequences, his devotees line up to heatedly excuse it, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde




					www.theguardian.com
				




Sounds familiar


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2021)

I bet the U.K is having a sigh of relief, now they aren't under the control of the EU temple of doom. 🤣 








						Europe refuses to heed COVID lessons from Britain as fourth wave hits
					

Europe has again misjudged the contours, time-lags and politics of the pandemic. Large swaths of the continent will be in an incontrovertible fourth wave by the end of this month, before they are sufficiently vaccinated.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Europe has again misjudged the contours, time-lags and politics of the pandemic. Large swathes of the continent will be in an incontrovertible fourth wave by the end of this month, before they are sufficiently vaccinated to ignore the medical consequences. This will be hard to explain.
In a surreal twist, the European Commission is actively threatening measures against Germany for imposing a quarantine requirement on its own residents returning from Portugal - that is to say, for trying to prevent more deaths in Germany as a result of largely unnecessary travel. Justice commissioner Didier Reynders says the rules must be exactly the same for everybody. It is doctrinal madness.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

Well Brexit certainly hasn't hurt the U.K workers, things are looking good, when you don't have caravans full of cheap labor running around the country. 🤣
Wage growth is the fastest in 24 years.


			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		










						UK sees record jump in employee numbers in May
					

The number of employees on British company payrolls surged by a record amount in May as COVID restrictions eased and pubs and restaurants resumed indoor service, though it still remains more than half a million below its pre-pandemic peak.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Average wages for UK pub and restaurant workers surge amid staff shortage
					

Summary  The average wages of pubs and restaurant workers rose by up to 14% due to the staff shortage. Greater Manchester and Cheshire topped th...




					kalkinemedia.com


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2021)

Post from March 2020


sptrawler said:


> The problem with being in the EU, my cousin in U.K told me was, European workers would come in a group and just take all the locals work.
> My cousin, who is a truck driver, or lorry driver as he would call it, couldn't wait to get out of the EU.




Well a year and a half later, my cousin appears to have been right.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		

From the article:
A combination of the pandemic and new immigration rules after the country left the European Union has left key industries suffering from intense shortages of workers. With the supply of candidates falling at a record pace, that’s fueling a rapid escalation of wages as firms scramble to fill vacancies left by immigrants from EU countries.

After years of stagnant pay, the situation is a rare moment of leverage for some workers to secure better conditions. Posted salaries for job openings in construction are up almost 7% this year, with those for drivers rising 5.7%, according to data up to July on jobs website Indeed.

Drivers for supermarket chains J Sainsbury Plc and Tesco Plc are considering strike action. The British Meat Producers Association says pay for processors has spiked to as much as 18 pounds an hour, twice the minimum wage.

A report from the Recruitment and Employers Confederation Thursday showed vacancies jumped in August, but the supply of candidates plunged. That sent starting salaries up at the fastest pace since it began collecting data in 1997.

The shortages are already leading to very public signs of strain. The British summer has been filled with stories of firms in dire need of truck drivers, and pictures of empty shelves at supermarkets.

How the government and businesses deal with the dilemma will help direct the economy toward a smooth recovery or a bumpy ride. A sustained jump in pay rates could add to inflation and worry Bank of England policy makers, who’ve started already talking about the need for higher interest rates.









						UK wages soar by 8.8% year-on-year after workers taken off furlough
					

Meanwhile, earnings excluding bonuses were up 7.4% for the period, in line with analyst predictions.




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Britain is booming – despite Brexit | The Spectator
					

After the vote for Brexit, it was often said that our departure from the EU was most likely to harm the very people who voted for it: the industrial workers of the Midlands and North. Didn’t they know that a vote for Brexit would, in itself, lead to 500,000 more job losses? Couldn’t they see...




					www.spectator.co.uk


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2021)

Also on an economic growth front.








						Britain sees fastest economic growth in 80 years... as EU left lagging
					

BRITAIN's bounce back from coronavirus will be complete in less than five months forecasts suggest, far quicker than the eurozone's predicted recovery.




					www.express.co.uk
				



From the article:
BRITAIN's bounce back from coronavirus will be complete in less than five months forecasts suggest, far quicker than the eurozone's predicted recovery.​They predict the economy could recover to its pre-pandemic size by the end of this year.

The growth would be the fastest annual rise since World War Two.

Last time the UK saw such high levels of increase in GDP was in 1941.

EY's analysts said: "With the lifting of COVID-19 restrictions across the country, and the vaccine roll-out continuing to progress, the growth prospects of the UK economy have improved beyond previous predictions.

"The economy is now expected to return to its pre-pandemic peak by the end of 2021 – two quarters sooner than expected in April."

The forecasters added: "Now that people are returning to working, shopping and socialising, the UK is well-placed to achieve a strong bounce-back in growth.


----------



## basilio (9 October 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (10 October 2021)

basilio said:


> View attachment 131326



Still plenty of people trying to get there Bas. 









						UK to turn back Channel migrants without France’s support
					

Home Secretary Priti Patel demands ‘results’ from French in return for cash to tackle Channel crossings.




					www.politico.eu
				




The French wont help, even though the U.K was prepared to pay them, yep the good old French there to help when you need them.🤣









						UK to pay France €62.7 million to curb Channel migration
					

The deal between the two countries will see French authorities double the number of officers deployed along the coast with their patrol area widened.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Also on an economic growth front.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People were sold on that remain bs. I bet others will soon jump ship.


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> People were sold on that remain bs. I bet others will soon jump ship.



Only the rich were sold on it and the muppets who believe everything the media writes of course.

Also those who bagged Johnson for pandering to business, are starting to look a bit foolish.








						Boris Johnson Says Low-Paid Migrants Are No Answer to Labor Shortages
					

The British prime minister said he would press ahead with his government’s pledge to end the influx of low-paid migrant workers despite the country’s labor shortages, describing it as a radical change for the British economy.




					www.wsj.com
				












						Boris Johnson tells businesses: I can’t fix everything for you
					

Boris Johnson clashed publicly with business leaders yesterday as each side blamed the other for the recent economic upheaval. In a series of interviews the prime minister insisted that it was not his job to “fix every problem in business”, dismissing claims of labour shortages and supply chain...




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## basilio (14 October 2021)

The bus rolls on.  Or doesn't


----------



## sptrawler (14 October 2021)

Yes @basilio stay in the EU, import your workers, to drive down your labour costs, way to go. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> People were sold on that remain bs. I bet others will soon jump ship.



You may be onto something @moXJO, according to this article, it's an interesting read.
Funny how the media disciples, who were telling us that the world was going to end for Britain, are somewhat subdued and have moved onto to other windmills. 


			DOMINIC LAWSON: Why is Macron so chippy over fish?
		

From the article:
No country has been more dismissive of the UK's decision to leave the EU than France. That is, if the government of Emmanuel Macron speaks for the French nation as a whole.

But of course it doesn't — any more than Boris Johnson's political postures are embraced by the British as a whole.

Curiously, a poll last year showed that the British Prime Minister is more popular in France than President Macron.
One reason might be that the idea of bursting free from the constraints of EU membership is more appealing to the French than their political establishment ever likes to admit.

To be fair to Macron, when interviewed by Andrew Marr in 2018 and asked if the French would vote to leave the EU if offered the chance in a referendum, he replied: 'Yes, probably.

That makes it all the clearer why, in a letter to the President of the European Commission demanding that Brussels condemn and penalise the UK for withholding fishing licences in British waters from a number of small French boats, the French PM Jean Castex told Ursula von der Leyen: 'It is indispensable to demonstrate that it is more damaging to leave the EU than to stay in it.'

Full translation: if you don't do as we ask, even more French voters will think Britain did the right thing by quitting the EU and (among other things) regaining control of its waters.

Alas for Macron and Castex, the other EU countries did not care for the French approach, and so Brussels refused even to issue a statement criticising the British Government's interpretation of the Brexit trade rules as they applied to the fishing dispute.

This is especially damaging to Macron because he may well face his biggest challenge in the country's next presidential elections from one of two possible candidates who have praised Brexit: Marine Le Pen (who lost to Emmanuel Macron in the last presidential face-off) and Eric Zemmour, a television pundit.
While neither of these two advocates 'Frexit', Le Pen still describes the EU as 'a prison' and Zemmour last week declared: 'I don't like the mindset of wanting to constantly make the English pay so as to show the other EU states that they should not leave the EU. That is pathetic.'
It is precisely because Macron is worried that these opponents might have more appeal to France's sense of injured national pride that he seems to feel obliged to turn a minor dispute over fishing licences into some sort of Napoleonic mission against les rosbifs.

That is the background to the French PM's embarrassingly leaked letter to the EU Commission President, in effect asking her to make sure that in the fishing dispute, the British will be made to regret their secession.


----------



## noirua (13 November 2021)

EU member-states buckle under British economic pressure
					

ANXIOUS EU member-states are starting to buckle under the threat of Article 16, according to a GB News reporter, who said that Brussels could sacrifice Ireland in order to avoid a trade war.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## Humid (19 January 2022)

Sums up whats happening here with a toxic media.....


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2022)

Spot on @Humid, the working class in the U.K would have voted for anybody to get out of the E.U and stop the caravan loads of scab labour coming in from the EU.
The other issue was there wasn't much of a choice with regard leaders, Johnson and Corbyn, I mean is that really the best Britain can serve up?


----------



## wayneL (20 January 2022)

James O'Brien is one of the most egregious tw@ts on the planet, who just happens to live and have a radio programme in the UK.

I wouldn't p¹ss on him if he was on fire.

However, astonishingly, on this occasion he is absolutely correct.

And... Having analysed the alternative, you guys don't know how it pains me to admit that. What a clusterf***.


----------



## Humid (23 January 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2022)

Humid said:


> View attachment 136378



The really funny part is, it was the blue collar workers in the U.K that voted him in.
Similar to what happened here, I wonder if Labor have got their grass roots voters back, or if they are still the party for the rich inner city elites?


----------



## Humid (24 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The really funny part is, it was the blue collar workers in the U.K that voted him in.
> Similar to what happened here, I wonder if Labor have got their grass roots voters back, or if they are still the party for the rich inner city elites?



Whats funnier is you voted our version in


----------



## sptrawler (24 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Whats funnier is you voted our version in



And I will vote them out, I don't vote because I'm a cult member, I vote for who I think will do the best job. 
I still think Shorten would have been infinitely worse than Morrison, so I'm still happy with my decision last election. 
As I've already said, I think it is time for the Libs to do a spell on the bench, so I will vote accordingly.


----------



## orr (10 February 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Brexit Britain, people still gagging to get there.









						Pacific Solution-mastermind Alexander Downer to review UK’s Border Force
					

Britain is struggling to contain asylum seeker boats crossing the English Channel from France.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Brexit Britain, people still gagging to get there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Off you go


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Off you go



Jeez that's a bit rough, you've only just finished paying to bring my family here and our job to educate you obviously isn't complete. 
By the way, we came on a cruise ship, did yours come chained to the oars? 🤣


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez that's a bit rough, you've only just finished paying to bring my family here and our job to educate you obviously isn't complete. 🤣



10 pound


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> 10 pound



For five of us. 👍


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> For five of us. 👍








						Browse Names | Welcome Walls | Western Australian Museum
					






					museum.wa.gov.au


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Browse Names | Welcome Walls | Western Australian Museum
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep I paid to put Mum, Dad and us kids on there, the best thing the old man ever did, bringing us to W.A.
He never went back, he was a man  of his word RIP.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep I paid to put Mum, Dad and us kids on there, the best thing the old man ever did, bringing us to W.A.
> He never went back, he was a man  of his word RIP.



I'm really not surprised that you are in a museum though pops...


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I'm really not surprised that you are in a museum though pops...



That's true, I've lived 66.5 years, you're yet to make it son, that's if you do make it.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true, I've lived 66.5 years, you're yet to make it son, that's if you do make it.



I'm doin my best not too


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I'm doin my best not too



There is absolutely no point in living a long life, if it is a boring as crap, everyone tells me to get rid of the motorbike and electric scooter after I broke my leg.
I came off my first motorbike at 13, before helmets were compulsory, fractured my skull, upper and lower jaw bones, stitches everywhere, Mum told me to give motorbikes away back then.
Like hell, she is now 90 and still telling me to, when I go to Bunbury to the nursing home to visit her.


----------



## noirua (23 February 2022)

Brexit’s effects on UK trade are dramatic – but we feel them in the EU too | Lisandra Flach
					

Not only is the impact on goods profound, the split may have made the bloc more inward-looking, says economist Lisandra Flach




					www.theguardian.com
				



The UK’s share of EU exports fell from 7.1% in 2015 to 6.2% in 2019 while its share of imports fell from 4.4% to 3.9% – these statistics include trade between EU member states. Over the course of the pandemic, we saw additional trade diversion away from the UK, estimated at a further fall of more than one percentage point.


----------



## noirua (10 April 2022)

April 8, 2022
The U.K. government’s post-Brexit border IT system is broken, adding to chaos at the country's biggest port
A key part of the post-Brexit border IT system is down until Monday at least, adding to the chaos in Kent where trucks are already backed up for miles.
The failure adds an extra layer of complication for companies shuttling goods across the English Channel They had already been facing 20-mile-long lines of trucks on the approach to Dover after P&O Ferries suspended sailings http://bloom.bg/3DQQ0Sh
https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1512341126245761025/photo/1


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## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Why Keir Starmer has ruled out the UK rejoining the EU and accepted that Brexit has brought benefits
					

Keir Starmer is determined not to damage Labour’s electoral chances with the distraction of renewed EU membership, but a Labour government would no doubt want the best possible relationship with EU…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk
				












						Brexit 5 years on: 'We would have you back,' says Europe, in new poll
					

Most respondents in France, Germany, Italy and Spain have a message for the UK: We want EU back, we want EU back for good.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

France out of NATO if LePen wins. French elections may blow apart the EU at a critical time


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2022)

Plenty still trying to get to the U.K, while the EU still loads them up onto boats.








						English Channel migration surges after court stops deportations to Rwanda
					

Smugglers have adopted a practice of swarming the channel with numerous boats simultaneously to overwhelm authorities.




					www.smh.com.au
				



 A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel from France after European courts stopped the British government from going ahead with its plan to deport asylum seekers who arrived by boat to Rwanda.
The Ministry of Defence said the number of people who arrived in boats in a single day was 1295. They travelled aboard 27 separate vessels.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (29 August 2022)

“_Every week, the people who trade electricity in the UK get to quiz the managers of the national grid for an hour._
_
The conference call, which anyone can monitor, offers an insight into what the men and women on the front line of the power market are worried about.

Listening to them is getting scarier by the week — *and suggests keeping the lights on this winter* will be a lot more challenging than European governments are admitting.

 British households were told on Friday that their power and gas bills will increase from 01 October by 80%.
_
_The so-called energy price cap was set at £3,549 ($4,189) per year, up from £1,971 over the past six months and £1,277 during last winter_.”

The above is the opening paragraph of a Bloomberg article written by Javier Blas. The title of his article is ‘*Listening to European Electricity Traders Is Very, Very Scary.*’

_..... whole place is in a pickle._


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## Knobby22 (29 August 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> “_Every week, the people who trade electricity in the UK get to quiz the managers of the national grid for an hour._
> 
> _The conference call, which anyone can monitor, offers an insight into what the men and women on the front line of the power market are worried about.
> 
> ...



i can't believe how they let themselves become so reliant on Russian gas.


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## Belli (29 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> i can't believe how they let themselves become so reliant on Russian gas.




You could be right but I recall Britain had structural problems well before February this year including lack of storage.  I read gas prices in the UK shot up threefold in October last year.  It doesn't have a gas pipeline directly from Russia but does from countries such as Norway and imports of LNG from Qatar, the US as well as Russia.

Apparently for the UK the problems have been a long time coming and the Russian invasion has increased the problem to a degree but isn't the main cause.


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## orr (29 November 2022)

Brexit OUT of EU: What happens now?​
In what degree and how long before they're back in???

_Beware Right wing populists spruking BS_...


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## sptrawler (14 December 2022)

orr said:


> Brexit OUT of EU: What happens now?​
> In what degree and how long before they're back in???
> 
> _Beware Right wing populists spruking BS_...



Well the EU could certainly do with the U.K's membership fee (Aus $24b), France is going to have riots, because they are going to raise the pension age from 62 to 64.
The U.K has had a 65 pension age for eons, but I suppose subsidising the French was fine, just another of life's suck it up princess moments, in the name of equality.🤣
The latest from over that way is that France is increasing its pension age from 62-64/65, apparently the natives are getting restless.








						French unions warn of 'major social conflict' over Macron's pension reform
					

France's main trade and student unions say they are ready to stage countrywide strikes and protests that could lead to major social conflict if the government's reform plans, soon to be submitted to parliament, are not changed.




					www.euractiv.com
				




Pension amounts are determined by number of years of residency from age fifteen to the minimum age permitted to receive the pension (_age 62_).

It will be interesting to see if the U.K does go back in, the blue collar people voted them out, the elites wanted to stay in, time will tell.

We will see if the U.K worker subsidising EU early retirement and losing jobs to EU work gangs in caravans, wins over the U.K rich wanting to get back to easy travel to the summer vacation houses on the French Riviera and the Amalfi Coast.
We can tell who you are backing. 
By the way, still a lot of refugees crossing the channel and not staying in Europe, maybe the U.K should just make their welfare system the same as the E.U that might stop the flow?









						Britain’s Leader Unveils Tough Plans to Tackle Illegal Crossings by Migrant Boats
					

Amid growing anger within his governing Conservative Party, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak vowed to eliminate the country’s backlog of asylum claims.




					www.nytimes.com
				




The crossings have become a big political embarrassment for supporters of Brexit, like Mr. Sunak, who claimed that leaving the European Union would allow Britain to reclaim control of its borders.
Instead, more than 40,000 people have made the perilous Channel crossing this year, mainly from France, partly because other routes have been closed as the authorities have cracked down on people-smuggling by truck and shipping container, prompting migrants to make the same journey in small, sometimes unseaworthy, boats.
As Britain’s creaking migration system struggles to cope, the overall backlog of asylum claims has reached about 150,000. On Tuesday, the government committed to eliminating more than 92,000 of those by the end of next year by hiring extra staff and clarifying its rules.
Mr. Sunak remains committed to the Rwanda policy but has also taken a more pragmatic approach by improving cooperation with France. On Tuesday, he also announced a new unit dedicated to processing cases involving Albanians and an agreement to embed British border guards at the airport in Tirana, the Albanian capital.


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## sptrawler (15 December 2022)

Bit of a scandal hitting the EU currently.









						Suitcases of cash, MPs arrested and ‘The Giant’: The bribery scandal that has shaken the EU
					

It has the makings of a Netflix political thriller: a glamour couple, unlimited credit cards, a mysterious figure known as “The Giant” and a tangled web of power and influence.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Suitcases brimming with cash, phones and computers seized, senior European politicians arrested, charity bosses and parliamentary advisers detained for questioning.
It has all the makings of a Netflix political thriller: a glamour couple, unlimited credit cards, a mysterious figure known as “The Giant”, a tangled web of power and influence as well as World Cup host Qatar. And it could be the most egregious bribery scandal to hit Brussels in years.









						Greek MEP stripped of EU vice-president role amid Qatar scandal
					

MEPs vote to remove role from Eva Kaili, one of four charged in corruption and bribery investigation




					www.theguardian.com
				




The European parliament has been rocked by the biggest scandal in its history after Belgian prosecutors announced they had charged four people with corruption, money laundering and participation in a criminal organisation, as part of an investigation into attempts by a Gulf state, named by Belgian media as Qatar, to buy influence in the assembly.

Since Friday, police have raided European parliament offices and 19 private homes, finding data and hundreds of thousands of euros in cash.


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## IFocus (1 January 2023)

Brexit: Britain’s political tragedy poses a dire warning for Australia​
Brexit’s a dud. The UK economy has shrunk. Almost 17 million Brits live in poverty. And there are large lessons for Australia. *Michael West* reports.

The momentous decision by the UK to leave the European Union has left it as the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller than it was before the Pandemic. The US, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan have all grown.

The British pound has cratered, rendering imports more expensive, inflation is in double digits, debt at record levels, trade has been hammered; the UK Office for Budget Responsibility, the body which produces economic forecasts for the government, expects Brexit to reduce Britain’s output by 4% over 15 years compared to remaining in the EU trading bloc. 

As Prem Sikka, accounting professor and Labour member of the House of Lords, puts it, “The UK has become a poor country with a lot of very rich people in it. 

“Just 250 people have wealth of £710.723bn whilst average real wage of workers is less than what it was in 2007. 

“Some 16.65 million live in poverty. The poorest 20% in Ireland have a standard of living almost 63% higher than the equivalent poorest in the UK. Most people don’t have the spending power to rejuvenate the economy and no major political party is pursuing equitable distribution of income and wealth.”









						Brexit: Britain's political tragedy poses a dire warning for Australia - Michael West
					

Brexit’s a dud. The UK economy has shrunk. Almost 17 million Brits live in poverty. And there are large lessons in it for Australia




					michaelwest.com.au


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## wayneL (1 January 2023)

Brire-enter won't fix a damn thing because brexit isn't the problem. A government in total disarray and a culture that has been completely decimated by woke and green nonsense is.

Whatever I'm not hopeful that de Bretts will come to their senses in any way, shape or form. 

They are @#$&ed until they wake up en masse.


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## sptrawler (1 January 2023)

wayneL said:


> Brire-enter won't fix a damn thing because brexit isn't the problem. A government in total disarray and a culture that has been completely decimated by woke and green nonsense is.
> 
> Whatever I'm not hopeful that de Bretts will come to their senses in any way, shape or form.
> 
> They are @#$&ed until they wake up en masse.



Recent history has shown, the EU isn't much to aspire to and history shows that the EU has required the U.K, much more than the U.K has required the EU. 
Maybe someone can explain, what other than Germany, has the EU got going for it.🤣
Australia as is its want in recent years, wish to degrade their heritage from the U.K, yet it is that very heritage that made Australia the courageous envied country it is today.
Australians have punched well above there weight in all facets of life, be it sport, welfare, fair go etc, the same can be said for New Zealand, yet all we are trying to do now is tear that incredible achievement down and demean our history.
Well I hope that works well for our kids and grandkids, who wont have that respect for what their forefathers achieved, building a successful country that most of the world envy.
Yet those who live here are constantly looking for reasons to deride it.
IMO we certainly don't deserve it, because most don't appreciate it.


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## IFocus (2 January 2023)

The numbers are at the moment are damming the UK is seriously in a hole unfortunately that's comparing it to the EU and clearly the Britts were sucked in by the likes of the FRNJ grifter Nigel and his friends it would seem the whole thing was a sham ar-la Trumpian style were they not best friends?

Worth noting that the Conservatives / Tories  have overseen the whole process and the situation I guess reflects the various iterations and stages of turmoil / shockingly inept leaders and members of the Conservative Party.

What they do now only god knows, Labor to lead them out of the darkness heaven forbid?

Australia needs a strong UK not a poor man of Europe.


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## sptrawler (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> The numbers are at the moment are damming the UK is seriously in a hole unfortunately that's comparing it to the EU and clearly the Britts were sucked in by the likes of the FRNJ grifter Nigel and his friends it would seem the whole thing was a sham ar-la Trumpian style were they not best friends?
> 
> Worth noting that the Conservatives / Tories  have overseen the whole process and the situation I guess reflects the various iterations and stages of turmoil / shockingly inept leaders and members of the Conservative Party.
> 
> ...



You obviously haven't been to France IFocus, if you think the poor are poor in the U.K, try France, Spain, Portugal, Greece.
I wouldn't be putting too much faith in what a left leaning reporter wants to write, if Brexit doesn't work I'm sure the U.K will move back into the E.U, but as with any major re adjustment in an economy it will take time to settle. Add to that covid and now the energy crisis, it would be truly staggering if there wasn't economic upheaval, to think there wouldn't be in itself would be naive.
So to try and ascertain whether Brexit will be successful, or fail, at this stage is just click bait IMO.
it's a bit like the media ranting and chanting for quarantine facilities, now we have expensive quarantine facilities sitting empty, that money could well have been used for social housing. Is the media running headline articles about Wellcamp, Bullsbrook, Pinkenba etc.
Nope nothing to see there, oooh look at the U.K. 
Still lots of people trying to get from France to England IFocus, when I start seeing boat loads of refugees heading from the U.K to Europe, that's when I will start and take notice.
Until then it really falls under the heading of chook food for loonies IMO.

21st December 2022.








						How is the UK stopping Channel crossings and what are the legal routes to the UK?
					

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has announced new measures to tackle the number of small boat crossings.



					www.bbc.com
				




As for France.








						France: poverty rate  | Statista
					

In 2020, the poverty rate in France reached 14.6 percent.




					www.statista.com


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## sptrawler (3 January 2023)

I'll put it another way @IFocus , Australia could have a much stronger economy, a much faster growing GDP and a faster roll out of infrastructure, industry and growth, if we signed up to a SE Asian free trade block with Indonesia, Phillipines, Thailand, China and Malasia.
If people and businesses could operate and move freely, like when the U.K was in the EU, Australia wouldnt have a problem with not enough workers, not enough money to invest in new industries and public infrastructure etc. How about we sign up for that? We are quick to criticise the UK for feeling they are losing their identity, control of their coastal waters and fishing rights, cheap labor saturating their labour markets.
Why dont we give it go, if it so good for another country, why not us? We are constantly short of people and money, an Asian Union trading block would fix up our labour and money problems wouldnt it?
Lol


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## IFocus (3 January 2023)

You need to read up on Michael West possible one of the best in exposing companies rorting investors back in the day again the numbers are damming and watching the conservatives shenanigan's they never had a plan and still don't.

"The momentous decision by the UK to leave the European Union has left it as the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller than it was before the Pandemic. The US, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan have all grown."


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## wayneL (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> You need to read up on Michael West possible one of the best in exposing companies rorting investors back in the day again the numbers are damming and watching the conservatives shenanigan's they never had a plan and still don't.
> 
> "The momentous decision by the UK to leave the European Union has left it as the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller than it was before the Pandemic. The US, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan have all grown."



West is an ideological leftist and Labor party shill... Untrustworthy


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## The Triangle (3 January 2023)

I don't understand how anyone can categorically say Brexit has been bad, good, successful, failure, etc. at this stage, maybe by 2030 we can make the call.   And what statistics will show, or will we accept to determine if it has been good or bad? (Which brings in the causation vs correlation debate) And is it even about statistics or is it about principle?  Should Brussels bureaucrats and politicians elected in Greece paid off by Qatari officials be passing and voting on laws and policies which impact people in the West Midlands?  The only argument I can accept is that the Brexit process up to this stage has been poorly managed and communicated.   NBN was poorly managed and communicated, but it's still been successful.


wayneL said:


> West is an ideological leftist and Labor party shill... Untrustworthy



Funny that...  A journalist "cherry picking" random stats to support his argument and appeal to anti-Brexit readers.   I'll only waste my time on one example:  Real wage growth.   Sure - if you pick up some statistics from 2007 you can say UK real wage growth is below 2007 levels.  But if you revisit the data from 2016 Brexit vote... - funny...  Looks like the UK actually outperformed Germany, France, and Spain.  So, what does that tell us?  (Not a whole lot other than America is still better than Europe) But if I were a journalist who wanted to write an article about how Brexit _was _successful, I would use that second graph.  (I took this data off the international labour organization.  Which anyone with a computer can access).  I'll start on the second example but wont finish..  Again, cherry picking different dates.  Now he's using the pandemic as the reference point of economic size...  wage growth was based on 2007 reference point...  Anyone can make any argument they want when they pick and choose the data and timeframe that suits them.  Same as investing.

Isn't Michael Wests sister a Labour MP in the UK?   Let me guess...  That was his MP 'source'?  "As one British MP told _Michael West Media"   _This isn't media, this isn't journalism. It's just a guy with a blog and an opinion.


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## sptrawler (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> You need to read up on Michael West possible one of the best in exposing companies rorting investors back in the day again the numbers are damming and watching the conservatives shenanigan's they never had a plan and still don't.
> 
> "The momentous decision by the UK to leave the European Union has left it as the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller than it was before the Pandemic. The US, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan have all grown."



As I said if it was such a great thing, why wouldn't Australia be doing the same with its neighbours?
We could give Indonesia, access to our waters and fishing rights, as the U.K had to do with France, while Indonesia agrees to buy our agricultural products.
We could have a common passport system as the EU does, so that there is free movement of labour in our countries, that would actually reduce the bottlenecks due to our lack of labour, which is holding up projects.
It would be no different to the U.K being in the EU, our economy would boom.
So why don't we have a common trading block with our neighbours, e.g Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia?
I tell you why not, because like the working class in the U.K the worker here would be shafted by itinerant workers who no longer needed a visa.
I think you know that, but your conflicted between your desire to bag the conservatives and actually admitting it is the elites who want to be in the EU, so they can travel to their mediterranean holiday homes and businesses so that they can exploit caravans full of eastern block tradies. 
As I said in the early days of Brexit, my cousin the truckie in the U.K wanted Brexit, the other cousin an accountant and his headmistress wife with no children wanted to stay in the EU.
They both had valid reasons, the truckie because of EU scab labour, the accountant and his wife because they enjoyed the freedom of easy travel without customs control.
IMO it is the elites willing it to fail, rather than giving it some time to settle, as I said there aren't boat loads of people heading West to East across the English channel are there?
Also I have read Michael West, he is about as unbiased as Andrew Bolt, or Ross Gittins.
IMO they are all biased and people just have to troll through until they find a reporter who aligns with your own bias..
Brexit may fail and it may not, time will tell.









						'My dream is to be a photographer': A day in Calais and Dunkirk with people waiting to cross the Channel - The Big Issue
					

The Big Issue travelled to the camps in northern France to meet migrants who believe a brighter future is waiting in Britain



					www.bigissue.com
				












						How many people cross the Channel in small boats and where do they come from?
					

How many people seek asylum in the UK versus other countries, and how many are allowed to stay?



					www.bbc.com


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## orr (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> You need to read up on Michael West possible one of the best in exposing companies rorting investors back in the day again the numbers are damming and watching the conservatives shenanigan's they never had a plan and still don't.
> 
> "The momentous decision by the UK to leave the European Union has left it as the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller than it was before the Pandemic. The US, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan have all grown."



The important fact raised you've above in West's piece Focus and shouldn't be missed  is 'momentous'. 
The Epistimlogical import of this is what has your detractors knickers in a knot.
Brexit is a failure of thought. 
The ridiculous false equivilence of some sort of Australian-SouthAsian  'economic union'  to the 'EU Common Market' given the cultural and industrial history differential is simply mind numbing.
The Farage inspired reactionary fall back postion of the bedwetters above; 'fear the refugees' has inspired me immeadiatly  to donate a few buck$ to Albert Einstein inspired IRC .








						Albert Einstein and the birth of the International Rescue Committee
					

Learn how the International Rescue Committee was founded at the call of physicist, humanitarian -- and refugee -- Albert Einstein.




					www.rescue.org
				




_'Brexit? time will tell'_l.... what a laughable retort. International Capital looks at Britian and sees a shrinking economy. The carpetbaggers are biding their time. And it has already  and will continue to tell.


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## IFocus (3 January 2023)

I don't hold a position if Brexit is / was a good idea or a bad idea however right now the numbers are damming, there is no plan unless some one knows different?

Anyone?

As for West being pro or leftard-spital you didn't read the article...eh.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> I don't hold a position if Brexit is / was a good idea or a bad idea however right now the numbers are damming, there is no plan unless some one knows different?
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> As for West being pro or leftard-spital you didn't read the article...eh.



To be fair to the Tories, most of them didn’t want to leave either. Few in the political class did of any persuasion.
It was really about immigration and a niave belief that Britain could be a power again.

They will muddle along.  They used to have high tech companies but no longer. Oil reserves are running out. Feel a bit sorry for the poms.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> I don't hold a position if Brexit is / was a good idea or a bad idea however right now the numbers are damming, there is no plan unless some one knows different?
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> As for West being pro or leftard-spital you didn't read the article...eh.



To be fair to the Tories, most of them didn’t want to leave either. Few in the political class did of any persuasion.
It was really about immigration and a niave belief that Britain could be a power again.

They will muddle along.  They used to have high tech companies but no longer. Oil reserves running out. Feel a bit sorry for the poms.


----------



## IFocus (3 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> To be fair to the Tories, most of them didn’t want to leave either. Few in the political class did of any persuasion.
> It was really about immigration and a niave belief that Britain could be a power again.
> 
> They will muddle along.  They used to have high tech companies but no longer. Oil reserves running out. Feel a bit sorry for the poms.




True to some degree but many Tories were cheer leaders or dog whistlers then floated to the top in leadership roles as a result,  regardless the mess that they have made of it after the fact belies belief.

Wests made some very good points one being a few made fortunes pity the rest have loss out.

And this

"Sadly for the UK, once famed for its aerospace, its automobile makers, manufacturing too has shrunk. It’s not just Brexit but the dismal failure of neo-liberal policy. As Prem Sikka puts it in this piece.

“The elites have transformed the state. Instead, of an entrepreneurial state which once invested in biotechnology, aerospace, information technology and other emerging industries, it now guarantees corporate profits to enrich a few."


There is no where to hide.

"The British pound has cratered, rendering imports more expensive,* inflation is in double digits, debt at record levels*, trade has been hammered; the UK Office for Budget Responsibility, the body which produces economic forecasts for the government, expects Brexit to reduce Britain’s output by 4% over 15 years compared to remaining in the EU trading bloc. "

“Just 250 people have wealth of £710.723bn whilst average real wage of* workers is less than what it was in 2007."*

Below is just unbeliveable

*"The poorest 20% in Ireland have a standard of living almost 63% higher than the equivalent poorest in the UK. "

"More than 7m people waiting for a hospital appointment."*


----------



## wayneL (4 January 2023)

IFocus said:


> True to some degree but many Tories were cheer leaders or dog whistlers then floated to the top in leadership roles as a result,  regardless the mess that they have made of it after the fact belies belief.
> 
> Wests made some very good points one being a few made fortunes pity the rest have loss out.
> 
> ...



Again due to the administrative incompetence of the RED Tories, rather than Brexit.

Conflating those factors is what leftards do without them realising how stupid they look in doing so.


----------



## Knobby22 (4 January 2023)

wayneL said:


> Again due to the administrative incompetence of the RED Tories, rather than Brexit.
> 
> Conflating those factors is what leftards do without them realising how stupid they look in doing so.



Conflation evident. 

Those policies to remove government support from research and manufacturing aren't red. They are  Classic Libertarian policies. Lower taxes by not being involved.

Germany, Japan , South Korea, Norway, France do the opposite and actively use tax payers money to support industry and research. USA is doing it more now also especially in the semiconductor space.


----------

