# Cost of living: USA vs. Australia



## gordon2007 (21 March 2010)

Let's just say you had $1.5 million in the  bank and the opportunity to either live in australia or the usa as permanent resident or citizen in both countries. 

Based purely on financials, which country would you reside in, and why?


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## prawn_86 (21 March 2010)

Personally i dont see how one can make a choice like this based only on money and not on other lifestyle factors.


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## gordon2007 (21 March 2010)

prawn_86 said:


> Personally i dont see how one can make a choice like this based only on money and not on other lifestyle factors.




OK maybe I could narrow it down a bit. Let's say you wanted a small beachfront house or unit. something simple to take care of. The $1.5 is disposable tax free cash. No mortage held on either house.


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## Fishbulb (21 March 2010)

States without question

Change is good, plus I know folks there already. Nice little spot in Northern California - I'd even consider Montana or Alaska.


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## So_Cynical (21 March 2010)

Australia...and if i did go US then it would have to be Hawaii or Florida keys and then not sure 1.5 mill would be enough in the Keys or Hawaii?



Fishbulb said:


> States without question
> 
> Montana or Alaska.




Beach front in land locked Montana : or with polar bears in Alaska..its certainly a change.


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## sam76 (21 March 2010)

Why not live like a king in SE ASIA?


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## So_Cynical (21 March 2010)

sam76 said:


> Why not live like a king in SE ASIA?




In general there's no free hold title for non nationals...as in foreigners cant own land but they can own apartments etc....in general.

Yes your right, lease and live like a King in southern Thailand or put the feet up somewhere quiet like Camiguin Island in the Philippines...or rock on in HK.


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## Buckfont (21 March 2010)

Depends whether you want to live like the Hollywood set or experience the States on on a level that most do. To the former 1,5M wont go far.

If you`re after a bit of adventure, do what I and 2 mates did Jul -Sept `07 for 8 weeks. 

We bought a `96 Camry for US$2400.00, saw 37 states, stayed in 3* motels that were more than comfortable, paid for food, budweisers, Tshirts, gifts, National Park fees, petrol and air fares there and back, and across The Grand Canyon and it cost me a little over AU15000.00. And at the end we sold the car to the motel manager in LA. on leaving, for US500.00!

That makes $1,500,000.00 minus $15000.00. lots of spending money for property and seeing more of the USA. Trouble is there are things called visa requirements and if you want to settle there you may have to find a nice yankee gal to legitimize it.

I believe property ownership has, as a non US citizen, its own set of problems unless you have relations over there.

But to to the question of if, Gordon, I`ll always call Australia home.


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## Buckfont (21 March 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Australia...and if i did go US then it would have to be Hawaii or Florida keys and then not sure 1.5 mill would be enough in the Keys or Hawaii?
> 
> 
> 
> Beach front in land locked Montana : or with polar bears in Alaska..its certainly a change.




Yeh, they have that here, It`s called the gold coast.


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## newbie trader (21 March 2010)

Buckfont said:


> Depends whether you want to live like the Hollywood set or experience the States on on a level that most do. To the former 1,5M wont go far.
> 
> If you`re after a bit of adventure, do what I and 2 mates did Jul -Sept `07 for 8 weeks.
> 
> ...




Such a good holiday Buck, my family did something similar for 8 weeks (rented a car) and seeing as though we used frequent flyer points for the 4 of us (so the flights there and back cost $0) it didn't cost much over what we would have been spending at home during the holidays.

(I know some people who live there at the moment and they say during the GFC and since then things have been significantly cheaper)

N.T


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## Buckfont (21 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Such a good holiday Buck, my family did something similar for 8 weeks (rented a car) and seeing as though we used frequent flyer points for the 4 of us (so the flights there and back cost $0) it didn't cost much over what we would have been spending at home during the holidays.
> 
> (I know some people who live there at the moment and they say during the GFC and since then things have been significantly cheaper)
> 
> N.T




Newbie, my experience since that US holiday (pre GFC) is that a 5 days round Temora, Cootamundra, Canberra, for myself and my son two months ago, everything included and travel  a  bit north of Sydney, was nudging $750.00.

No wonder people want to holiday OS. the way the dollar is.


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## newbie trader (21 March 2010)

Buckfont said:


> Newbie, my experience since that US holiday (pre GFC) is that a 5 days round Temora, Cootamundra, Canberra, for myself and my son two months ago, everything included and travel  a  bit north of Sydney, was nudging $750.00.
> 
> No wonder people want to holiday OS. the way the dollar is.




Yes, I think many Australians (although it is good to support Australian tourism) are waking up to OS travel...In Dec2008-Jan2009 we were going to go back over to the states for 5-8 weeks, however, the dollar was so bad at the time we canceled as it would have been a waste of money and went to Thailand instead...We again rented a car and drove around for the time we were there which ended up being much cheaper than holidaying in Australia.

N.T


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## Knoxy (21 March 2010)

Believe for no good reason that Aus is expensive generally so the answer from financial perspective would seem to be the US. Some cheap real estate in places like Georgia.

Still, I lived in Thailand for 3 years and can say its different living somewhere to visiting. The US would likely drive me nuts, get enough US culture here. Aus for me.


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## CanOz (21 March 2010)

Knoxy said:


> Believe for no good reason that Aus is expensive generally so the answer from financial perspective would seem to be the US. Some cheap real estate in places like Georgia.
> 
> Still, I lived in Thailand for 3 years and can say its different living somewhere to visiting. The US would likely drive me nuts, get enough US culture here. Aus for me.




I reckon the US is Cheap, having just toured through three continents on my way back to China. 

That said, i would prefer Australia to the US for tons of reasons. Basically you get what you pay for.

Cheers,


canOz


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## Knobby22 (21 March 2010)

A guy I worked with emigrated to Australia.
His cousins emigrated to the USA.

He cousin says that when they want help with their property, they just go to the hardware store where there are desperate people just sitting out the front. His cousin offers 1$ for 3 hours work and he gets plenty of offers, He picks one and the guy will do the hard work.

The cousin regrets greatly not choosing Australia. He hates the poverty everywhere and the desperation. Also his Australian cousin (they are both African) has had rapid promotion while he seems to be stuck even though he has equal qualifications. Their house is bigger though.


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## Investor82 (21 March 2010)

Whats better and apple or an orange. 

You cant really compare the two as they are different each with their pros and cons. It depends on everyones personality. 

If it was purely a $$ point of view, why would you choose either Australia or US? Why not broaden your horizon and look somewhere completely different. You might be suprised at what you find. 
I now spend most of my time in Kazakhstan and get to travel a lot, some of the places I visit many Westerners have never even heard of - but maybe thats what makes them great?  

just my


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## gordon2007 (22 March 2010)

Investor82 said:


> Why not broaden your horizon and look somewhere completely different.




Fair question. It isn't me with these options though. A friend (really) was asking me the other day and I just got to wondering. Wanted to see what the thoughts were on here.


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## Absolutely (22 March 2010)

Definitely the US is cheaper. Much cheaper when it comes to housing, cars and fuel, although the cost of services is a bit of an illusion, as once you have provided the required tip, and given you don't want to seem like a tight ****, you will find the cost of services will exceed that in Australia.


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## ajjack (22 March 2010)

Knobby22 said:


> A guy I worked with emigrated to Australia.
> His cousins emigrated to the USA.
> 
> He cousin says that when they want help with their property, they just go to the hardware store where there are desperate people just sitting out the front. His cousin offers 1$ for 3 hours work and he gets plenty of offers, He picks one and the guy will do the hard work.
> ...




What you say is quite true.
I travel Stateside quite often, and in my line of biz,
I see those sights regularly.

The US has a unique set of problems not easily seen
in the touristy areas.
Can be depressing.


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## Fishbulb (22 March 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Australia...and if i did go US then it would have to be Hawaii or Florida keys and then not sure 1.5 mill would be enough in the Keys or Hawaii?
> 
> 
> 
> Beach front in land locked Montana : or with polar bears in Alaska..its certainly a change.




I am a man of extremes

I love both desert and ocean. Maybe Namibia....? Hmmm, that would be nice.


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## alphaman (22 March 2010)

Knobby22 said:


> His cousin offers 1$ for 3 hours work and he gets plenty of offers, He picks one and the guy will do the hard work.



1$ for 3 hours?


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## Investor82 (22 March 2010)

Fishbulb said:


> I am a man of extremes
> 
> I love both desert and ocean.




Dahab - Egypt?


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## gordon2007 (22 March 2010)

alphaman said:


> 1$ for 3 hours?






Knobby22 said:


> His cousin offers 1$ for 3 hours work and he gets plenty of offers, He picks one and the guy will do the hard work.




I find that very hard to believe. I know they are going through some hard times there...but surely not $1 an hour or 3 hours. You're talking 33cents an hour. Surely your facts are wrong or someone is bull sh*tting you.


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## Timmy (23 March 2010)

This is only loosely related to the subject of the thread, but is related to the title!  Cost of housing, food and clothing in the Midwest of the US.

From a blog on my list of reads:
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/03/food-clothing-housing-costs-at-all-time.html
*Food, Clothing, Housing Costs at All-Time Lows? *



> With all of the talk about stagnant or declining wages, increasing income inequality, the disappearing middle class, etc. the fact that the typical household in the Midwest has more than twice the income necessary to buy a typical house suggests that it really can't be all that bad. As I reported recently, clothing is cheaper than ever before in history (less than 3% of disposable income in 2009), and food is cheaper than ever before (9.6% of disposable income in 2008).


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## aaronphetamine (24 March 2010)

I would easily say that with that sort of cash, an existance in the USA would be alot easier than in Australia for the predominant reason of housing prices.

If you visit trulia.com which is the US equivalent to real estate.com.au you can easily buy a really nice 3 bedroom house in the suburbs of any of thje major cities for between 150-350K USD. That its WAY cheaper than in Australia where you would be paying between 450-1mill AUD. 

So with the cheap housing you can also buy a cheap car with cheap on road costs like rego and fuel (dont know what insurance is like). I would assume that general items are a little bit cheaper than in australia due to scales of economy, but that wouldnt have a large factor. 

With the remaining funds you could invest it and nearly live full time on the returns on those funds. Thats if you wanted to live a meagre life.


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## kitehigh (24 March 2010)

Definitely get a lot more for your money in the the US than you get in Oz.  Plus they have really lax gun laws which I like, as I enjoy my shooting.  I find most Americans to be very friendly people, and offer you the shirt off their backs to help you out.  Could also be that most of the ones I have met come from either Texas or Montana.  I could definitely live in Texas,, great state with great people.


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## WiseMum (24 March 2010)

gordon2007 said:


> I find that very hard to believe. I know they are going through some hard times there...but surely not $1 an hour or 3 hours. You're talking 33cents an hour. Surely your facts are wrong or someone is bull sh*tting you.




Hard to believe, but true.  Did anyone see the recent story on 4Corners about the growing Hispanic community in the US?  That showed exactly what was described.  A large group of unemployed men standing around an abandonded petrol station waiting to be offered work for virtually nothing.  People just drive up, offer some cash and they get to it.  Very grim.


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## gordon2007 (24 March 2010)

WiseMum said:


> Hard to believe, but true.  Did anyone see the recent story on 4Corners about the growing Hispanic community in the US?  That showed exactly what was described.  A large group of unemployed men standing around an abandonded petrol station waiting to be offered work for virtually nothing.  People just drive up, offer some cash and they get to it.  Very grim.




I believe you're talking about the illegal immigrants who do this. Many have done it for years, but I've never seen it that low.


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## WiseMum (24 March 2010)

No, i'm pretty sure they weren't illegals.  Just an increasing volume of immigrants (presumably joining already established relatives?) and swelling the blue collar ranks.
But of course I could be wrong....  Still, it was pretty sad to see.


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## noirua (24 March 2010)

It's quite difficult to compare food store prices as hardly any items are the same, comparing USA and Aus. The same applies when comparing the UK with Australia.
Prices of food generally is about 130% more expensive in Australia than America, when comparing Woolworths with Walmart.  The cheapest UK supermarket is Asda, though added points and fuel discounts confuse the issue. Woolworth would go bust in America and the UK within a year, imho - let's get it straight; the high value of the Aussie$ has made Australia one of the worlds most expensive countries.


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## Chris45 (24 March 2010)

WiseMum said:


> Hard to believe, but true.  Did anyone see the recent story on 4Corners about the growing Hispanic community in the US?  That showed exactly what was described.  A large group of unemployed men standing around an abandonded petrol station waiting to be offered work for virtually nothing.  People just drive up, offer some cash and they get to it.  Very grim.



Actually, that was last night on Foreign Correspondent. You can watch it here:
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2009/s2854179.htm


> In recent times Latin Americans have surged their way into the USA - conventionally and illegally - in search of a better life.
> 
> Soon – to summon an Americanism – they’ll arrive, translating their sheer weight of numbers into a mighty political force and aiming to redress a power balance that’s seen them consigned to menial jobs, poverty and social dislocation.
> 
> ...



It sounds like the mighty USA will soon be just another Latin-American country.

Are there any lessons we can learn from this?


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## theasxgorilla (11 May 2010)

Chris45 said:


> Actually, that was last night on Foreign Correspondent. You can watch it here:
> http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2009/s2854179.htm
> 
> It sounds like the mighty USA will soon be just another Latin-American country.
> ...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mexican_Cession_in_Mexican_View.PNG

That it takes longer than 150 years of occupation to assimilate a conquered populace?


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## FlyingFox (27 April 2013)

Sorry to raise an old thread. 

There is a decent article in the Brisbane times today on the cost of living in Australia vs the rest of the world.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/data-point/rising-price-of-living-in-australia-20130426-2ik16.html


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## finnsk (27 April 2013)

That would make inflation a lot higher that the 2-3 % that the government have told us


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## DB008 (27 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Sorry to raise an old thread.
> 
> There is a decent article in the Brisbane times today on the cost of living in Australia vs the rest of the world.
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/data-point/rising-price-of-living-in-australia-20130426-2ik16.html




"Sports shoes" is just a load of BS.

I used to purchase ASIC's from the USA at half the cost of Australian retailers. Not anymore.

ASIC's has clamped down on that one...


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## explod (27 April 2013)

Interesting the different prices due to socio/economic situations in that article.  I noted that a favourite pack of pencils I buy at $4. Mornington $2.90 at Rosebud and $2.10 more recently at Bendigo.  All at the same lovely Woolworths too.

I do know from watching in the last 12 months that fuel on average is up about 15%, particular foods I watch by brand and weight are up nearly 20%.  Pleased to see lamb down just a bit of late.

Not calculated but I think most will agree that phone charges, electricity, water and gas, the essentials are all  rising well above the Guvminters 2 to 3% inflation rate, which young Swannie loves to quote all the time.  Notice how his neck puffs out into his tie which becomes too tight (inflation).  He is gunna choke before our eyes wunna these nights.  In a past job always knew they were on the wrong foot when their neck puffed out and the tie was strangling them.  Swannie gets red in the face with it too.

So why dont' the opposition (Da Abbott mob) get onto such figures???

Huh, suppose they will want to continue telling the same bl..dy lies too.

If you propogate your own seed, use skippy manure and save free water you can greatly reduce the effects of inflation.  Could never come at making my own beer so there are still a lot of porblems.

Good thread to get going again now that the currency wars are really hotting up.


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## FlyingFox (27 April 2013)

DB008 said:


> "Sports shoes" is just a load of BS.
> 
> I used to purchase ASIC's from the USA at half the cost of Australian retailers. Not anymore.
> 
> ASIC's has clamped down on that one...




You can still get sports shoes cheaper in the US. Picked up a couple of pairs when I was in Hawaii a few months back. However with sales here and the cost of shipping (US Postal service has recently seriously jacked up their prices) it is no longer the case that you can get them at half price and may not be worth the hassle.

This has nothing to do with ASIC! The companies have realized they have to price things more realistically or loose market share to competitors, gray market imports or just overseas online shopping.


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## CanOz (27 April 2013)

DB008 said:


> "Sports shoes" is just a load of BS.
> 
> I used to purchase ASIC's from the USA at half the cost of Australian retailers. Not anymore.
> 
> ASIC's has clamped down on that one...




There is an Asics factory here in this small town....


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## FlyingFox (27 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> You can still get sports shoes cheaper in the US. Picked up a couple of pairs when I was in Hawaii a few months back. However with sales here and the cost of shipping (US Postal service has recently seriously jacked up their prices) it is no longer the case that you can get them at half price and may not be worth the hassle.
> 
> This has nothing to do with ASIC! The companies have realized they have to price things more realistically or loose market share to competitors, gray market imports or just overseas online shopping.




Sorry DB008, I thought you meant ACCC has clamped down on that. A bit of a mix up, apologies.


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## prawn_86 (27 April 2013)

Providing all goes well with my visa application i will soon be moving to the USA so will be able to give first hand a cost of living breakdown


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## FlyingFox (27 April 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> Providing all goes well with my visa application i will soon be moving to the USA so will be able to give first hand a cost of living breakdown




Sorry to hear your considering leaving. Hope it all works out for you.


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## DB008 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> You can still get sports shoes cheaper in the US. Picked up a couple of pairs when I was in Hawaii a few months back. However with sales here and the cost of shipping (US Postal service has recently seriously jacked up their prices) it is no longer the case that you can get them at half price and may not be worth the hassle.
> 
> This has nothing to do with ASIC! The companies have realized they have to price things more realistically or loose market share to competitors, gray market imports or just overseas online shopping.




I used to purchase Asic's from the USA (with shipping) for ~$60, total, which would retail for close to $120 here.

Then all of a sudden, no more. I sent and e-mail to the company asking why. Reply was along the lines that Asic didn't want people purchasing cheaper shoes from other places and wanted to keep the price here high. 

If there is another way of getting Asic's cheaply, please share or PM me. I would greatly appreciate it.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

DB008 said:


> I used to purchase Asic's from the USA (with shipping) for ~$60, total, which would retail for close to $120 here.
> 
> Then all of a sudden, no more. I sent and e-mail to the company asking why. Reply was along the lines that Asic didn't want people purchasing cheaper shoes from other places and wanted to keep the price here high.
> 
> If there is another way of getting Asic's cheaply, please share or PM me. I would greatly appreciate it.




Short of flying over, dunno. You can use forwarding companies in the US that buy from a US address and then ship to you. But between their cost and shipping (this has gone up a lot recently), might not be worth it.

I use and collect fountain pens. I got a few online from Malaysia. Well known companies with supposed world wide warranties. They were less than half price to what I would have paid here. However I had a little trouble with one of them and got in touch with their agents here. Essentially got told it would cost me 50% of the purchase price for them just to have a look at it. It is free (including free postage) if I buy from here.

Also got told that Aussie retailers and their local agent have been putting pressure on the Malaysian reseller not to ship to Oz.


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## prawn_86 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Sorry to hear your considering leaving. Hope it all works out for you.




It is for work. We will be back in Aus one day probably, but need to take the chance to live overseas whi;e it presents itself


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## DB008 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Short of flying over, dunno. You can use forwarding companies in the US that buy from a US address and then ship to you. But between their cost and shipping (this has gone up a lot recently), might not be worth it.




Got it sorted. Have a friend going back to the US (work wise) next month for a while. I asked him on Facebook, reply came back, no problemo, be glad to help.


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## Julia (28 April 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> It is for work. We will be back in Aus one day probably, but need to take the chance to live overseas whi;e it presents itself



That's a great opportunity, prawn.  Good for you.  All the best.  Hope you'll keep us posted on how it goes.


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2013)

I went to the US on holidays last year. I didn't notice how "cheap" things were so much as I noticed how expensive they are in Australia.

It was only a few weeks, but arriving back in Australia everything suddenly seemed ridiculously expensive. Very noticeable straight away when I got something to eat and felt ripped off.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> I went to the US on holidays last year. I didn't notice how "cheap" things were so much as I noticed how expensive they are in Australia.
> 
> It was only a few weeks, but arriving back in Australia everything suddenly seemed ridiculously expensive. Very noticeable straight away when I got something to eat and felt ripped off.




There are other things that you don't notice until you live there like the cost of housing, electricity and petrol. Please note that this is not from first hand experiences but from a couple of colleagues who used to live there a few years back.


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## McLovin (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> There are other things that you don't notice until you live there like the cost of housing, electricity and petrol. Please note that this is not from first hand experiences but from a couple of colleagues who used to live there a few years back.




I lived in NY for a brief period. Aside from rent, everything was cheaper. On the other hand the US has a massive underclass and the poverty is much more "in your face". If you want cheap products and services then you need to have people working on $6-$7/hour (real wages in the US peaked in the mid-70s and have been falling since then). With no realistic expectation of healthcare. I remember being in Chicago in January and seeing a woman begging for money for chemotherapy (she had lost most of her hair). I'll pass on cheap burritos at the expense of someone losing their dignity. Just remember what side of the coin you'll fall on. Sure if you are self sufficient or are earning $100k+ then the US is far better but if you're a middle management type you'll probably find your $75k/year job becomes $50k or lower when you move there.

Having said that, even compared to somewhere like London, Australia has become far too expensive. I remember when I lived there the gf and I used to spend about gbp60 on groceries (we both worked pretty long hours so take away was often also the easiest option) and that was at Waitrose which is a fairly upmarket grocer. NZ lamb was cheaper there than it is here.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> I lived in NY for a brief period. Aside from rent, everything was cheaper. On the other hand the US has a massive underclass and the poverty is much more "in your face". If you want cheap products and services then you need to have people working on $6-$7/hour. With no realistic expectation of healthcare. I remember being in Chicago in January and seeing a woman begging for money for chemotherapy (she had lost most of her hair). I'll pass on cheap burritos at the expense of someone losing their dignity.
> 
> Having said that, even compared to somewhere like London, Australia has become far too expensive. I remember when I lived there the gf and I used to spend about gbp60 on groceries (we both worked pretty long hours so take away was often also the easiest option) and that was at Waitrose which is a fairly upmarket grocer. NZ lamb was cheaper there than it is here.




This feels like dejavu .... so I won't add much. I agree that we should not have a good standard of living at the expense of underclass. However we are starting to have very high base wage with not a lot of headroom by world standards.

Agree on the latter.


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## DB008 (28 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> Having said that, even compared to somewhere like London, Australia has become far too expensive. I remember when I lived there the gf and I used to spend about gbp60 on groceries (we both worked pretty long hours so take away was often also the easiest option) and that was at Waitrose which is a fairly upmarket grocer. NZ lamb was cheaper there than it is here.




Spot on.

I lived in London in 2005.

A lot of the time it was cheaper to purchase take away, then buy the ingredients and cook it yourself.
I remember cooking a Thai green chicken curry, it was almost 30pounds  You can get take away for a tenner (or less).


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## McLovin (28 April 2013)

DB008 said:


> Spot on.
> 
> I lived in London in 2005.
> 
> ...




First place I lived in London was on Queensway. Very centrally located zone one. Curry with naan for 8 quid, pizza was the go to hangover food (and gees in that flat there was a lot of boozing!) that cost 9 quid. Bottle of Absolut vodka 12 quid. Ping Pong was down the road which used to do all you can eat dim sum on Sunday nights for about gbp15, if my memory serves me correctly! Compare that to Sydney.


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## sydboy007 (28 April 2013)

Spent a week n San Fran last October and was shocked at the level of homelessness on the streets.  There were certain street corners where the homeless seemed to hang around.  If someone asked me for emoney I'd just give them some food - am a stingy traveller and usually have some snacks in my day pack to keep me going in between meals.  I do so miss the sour dough bread there 

I'm not sure how we overcome the issues of Australian minimum wages being rather high compared to the rest of the world, but unless we have near 0 tax on incomes up to $35-40K I don't see how you drop the pay on the lowest income earners without increasing poverty.

I grew up under the poverty line, and it's not fun.  I think it's even worse these days with all the gadgets around and it's far easier to spot the poor kids at school.

I also think people need to look at the medium income levels of a country and how prices compare to that, rather than the average which is usually around the 65-70% mark ie if you earn the average wage you're beating at least 35% of the population.

A good friend in San Fran earns about the same level as me - we both just scrape into the 6 figure mark.  His income tax was lower than mine, but there seemed to be a lot of other taxes he had to pay that I didn't, and then he reckoned he would spend 1.5-2K on tips each year which is another hidden tax there.  He tried to explain how his health care worked, but from the sounds of it he felt OK to be in an accident, but hoped he never had a major illness as the HMOs there seem to do their best to deny treatment - his sentiment.  I assume he would have a bit of an idea of how all that works since he's a physical therapist and gets to see first hand how his patients get treated by the HMOs.

So yeah, eating out or buying clothes might be cheap in the USA, but it does seem to come at a huge cost tot eh individual, and I think to the country as poverty creates a part of the economy along the lines of 3rd world countries where the lack of education and opportunities causes lower productivity and a lot of costs borne by the rest of society.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I'm not sure how we overcome the issues of Australian minimum wages being rather high compared to the rest of the world, but unless we have near 0 tax on incomes up to $35-40K I don't see how you drop the pay on the lowest income earners without increasing poverty.






It's very hard to do unless other costs come down.

Curious....what do you think qualifies as a minimum single wage to stay above the poverty line? Is 35-40K the mark?


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## sydboy007 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> It's very hard to do unless other costs come down.
> 
> Curious....what do you think qualifies as a minimum single wage to stay above the poverty line? Is 35-40K the mark?




Depends where you live.

rent can chew up $150-$200 a week, groceries another $60-70 (I'm single and that's prob my avg weekly spend over a month).

So if you take rent at 150 * 52 = 7800

Groceries = 70 * 52 = 3640

Utilities = 350 * 4 = 1400 (gas electrcity phone internet mobile)

Getting to work = train $1500 a year  car ???

I live rent free (home loan free now) and budget to live on $400 a week

A couple might have things a bit easier, hate to think what it would be like with a couple of kids.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Depends where you live.
> 
> rent can chew up $150-$200 a week, groceries another $60-70 (I'm single and that's prob my avg weekly spend over a month).
> 
> ...





That is a very tight budget..lol. But if you had to put a number on it?


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## sydboy007 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> That is a very tight budget..lol. But if you had to put a number on it?




I really don't know.

As far as I feel, personally I don't live in the real world.  I'm single, no mortgage, no debts, high income.

Most months I'm disappointed with myself if I don't have at least another 3K in the bank.  That's not how the majority live.  Heck some of my friends would be happy to live on 3K a month.

I'd say anything less than 2K a month after tax is going to be pretty hard to get by on these days.  Not sure what low income tax rebates etc there are out there or what kind of help you can get.  It's quite common for people at work to have hour long commutes so as to get affordable housing further out of the city.

I just don't ant to see the kind of underclass of the USA develop here.  Whether high minimum wages is the best way to achieve that, I'm not sure, but I do worry that if you make too many people feel they don't benefit by being a part of society, then they tend to become apart from society and you get all the associated problems and costs.

Possibly the best thing that could happen for us all is for the housing market to fall by a good 30% and remove the burden of high mortgages.  Maybe the 2014-15 recession will do some of that for us.

If anyone can give me a rational reason as to why high house prices is good for society I'd love to hear it.  Personally I'd feel much better if we were like Germany where real house prices have stagnated for the last 30 years.  All that money they can invest in far more productive endeavours.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I really don't know.
> 
> As far as I feel, personally I don't live in the real world.  I'm single, no mortgage, no debts, high income.
> 
> ...




Fair enough ... would it surprise you to know that the median graduate salary in Oz is 50K (and in most occupations lower)?


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Spent a week n San Fran last October and was shocked at the level of homelessness on the streets.  There were certain street corners where the homeless seemed to hang around.



I was there in September and agreed with your comment. You don't have to go too far from Fisherman's Wharf (a major SF tourist precinct) and the cable car routes to find that wealthy turns to average turns to poor turns to desperate pretty damn quickly.

Something I often do when on holidays is to take a "proper" look at the place. Just go for a walk and see what I find. Suffice to say that finding people on the streets isn't at all hard, indeed at night on some streets it's impossible to not be constantly coming across homeless people. But it's not just that - within walking distance it goes from upmarket and touristy to downmarket and the streets literally crumbling. On a positive note, I did find the workshop where Mythbusters is based (not open to the public but I took a photo from the outside anyway - it's nothing too fancy).

It's much the same in every US city I've been to. It all looks upmarket and fancy if you stay around the tourist areas but you don't have to venture at all far to see a very different side.

As for prices, yes they are cheaper but don't forget that in the US you are constantly paying tips for "services" that in Australia would either be built into the listed price or which don't exist at all. It's a dollar here and a dollar there but it starts to add up pretty quickly. 

And then there's tax. That one thing which isn't included in the stated price of practically anything. The price says $5, you hand over $10 and get somewhat less than $5 in change. That's tax and the rate varies between states. The key point being that in most cases (notable exception of fuel), the tax is not included in the stated price. 

I did note a few prices of things. Petrol the cheapest I saw was $3.67 per gallon. Alcohol was ridiculously cheap in some places, to the point that it took me a while to realise that this really was the actual price. I don't smoke but I did notice that cigarettes were a lot cheaper than in Australia. Food from restaurants or take away was generally quite a bit cheaper than in Australia. 

Personally, I'd rather have less of a class divide than the US has. If that means paying higher prices then so be it.


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Fair enough ... would it surprise you to know that the median graduate salary in Oz is 50K (and in most occupations lower)?



Lots of strange things happen so far as wages are concerned.

Looking at my own background in the electrical trade, one really strange phenomenon is that the jobs which involve the least amount of actual work generally pay the highest rates. I've never really thought about why that is, but it is very much the case.


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## sydboy007 (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Fair enough ... would it surprise you to know that the median graduate salary in Oz is 50K (and in most occupations lower)?




Sounds about right.

Below is the latest AWE I can find.

My understanding is that around 2/3 of income earners don't get to that level.

I think the USA would be a lot better if the healthcare wasn't so screwed up there.  It's just scary to think you can get bankrupted by simple medical costs because your employer doesn't give you healthcare.  So many on low wages and without adequate healthcare is a recipe for disaster.

I'm very thankful to be growing up in Australia.  I doubt I'd have been able to take advantage of the opportunities I have if I'd been born there.  At least you can get into university here and not leave with a 100K or more in debt.  My friend in San Fran had over 100K of student loans when he finished uni.  

Denying access to education based on income is not the way to go.  All that talent your not able to take advantage of.  A huge waste of human intellect.

I'm wondering if the USA will eventually have to move to Australian style sin taxes.  I'd say they could double them and still be lower than here.  That does tend to hit the poor the most since they tend to spend a higher level of their income on alcohol and smokes.

I think once the AUD drops back to a more realistic level of 85-90c then a lot of the higher costs debate will be moot as the difference will not be so great.


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Sounds about right.
> 
> Below is the latest AWE I can find.
> 
> My understanding is that around 2/3 of income earners don't get to that level.




By my calculations from the table you presented, the average wage is about 75K not 50K.


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## tinhat (29 April 2013)

Do you know that the USA has the highest infant mortality rate (by far) of any so called "first world" country? 

The premise of this discussion is laughable. Absolutely laughable.


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## Tink (29 April 2013)

I think its sad the way they are.
I remember watching a documentary a while back of all the volunteers and SES that were there helping at the 9/11, heading to France for medical care, as their own country wouldnt look after them.
For that I am thankful the way Australia is.


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## Wysiwyg (3 May 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> Looking at my own background in the electrical trade, one really strange phenomenon is that the jobs which involve the least amount of actual work generally pay the highest rates. I've never really thought about why that is, but it is very much the case.



Mate I see that too. More so nowadays with computerisation because it takes only a human to monitor the functions and do adjustments as necessary. Computers/automation has lessened the physical work of many jobs and consequently less workers are required. Apparently the higher the perceived responsibility, the higher the perceived worth of an individual, regardless of output. Once above a certain level of management, one enters an untouchable realm where salaries are extreme, power is abused and bad outcomes are because of everyone lower down the line.

BUT what about the cost of living today? It has rocketed up in the last 10 years and a spike in the last few years. CPI figures suggest low but goods/services price suggest otherwise. I wonder where these prices are gathered from.


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