# The Pilgrims



## Julia (14 July 2008)

I've been reading news reports of the many thousands of young Catholics descending on Sydney in the coming few days and rather feeling for all those ordinary citizens who will find their usual passage about the city impeded.

And also the extraordinary "nuisance law" which dictates apparently that ordinary Sydneysiders may not in any way annoy the pilgrims but that the reverse does not apply, i.e. any frenzied chanting, gatherings etc of the enthusiastic young Catholics may not be deemed annoying to anyone else.  Seems a bit lopsided to me.

But then, having seen various shots of bunches of healthy, happy looking young people, replete with their bounteous idealism, I've been forced to admit that perhaps they are a positive influence overall.

I can't go for their religious message in any way at all.  And it all seems a bit hypocritical in the face of the recent disclosures of further cover up of sexual abuse by Cardinal Pell, but if we compare their general demeanour and behaviour with that of some of their peers who are so into drug and alcohol abuse, physical and sexual violence, then perhaps we have to concede they have something going for them.

Interested to know what others think.


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## Whiskers (14 July 2008)

I just feel sorry for anyone who so idolises another mere mortal... or worse, a church. 

Seems to be a bit of a vacuum in many peoples sense of identity.


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## Awesomandy (14 July 2008)

Whiskers said:


> I just feel sorry for anyone who so idolises another mere mortal... or worse, a church.
> 
> Seems to be a bit of a vacuum in many peoples sense of identity.




Judging by their ability to navigate, it appears that there is a bit of a vacuum in their brains too. Usually, it is not a good idea stand around like a herd of sheep, scratching your collective heads and trying to work out which way to go for an extended period of time when you are standing in the middle of a train station between the ticket gates and the stairs leading to/from the platforms during peak hour in one of the busiest station in Sydney.


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## MRC & Co (14 July 2008)

High AUD, high oil prices.  Tourism Australia and RET need to do something.  Good publicity for Australia, good for the economy, potential of attracting skilled foreign workers at the same time.  

Just a few thoughts.

Lol, awesomeandy, that description reminds me of being in Asia.  They don't seem to have a clue what is going on around them.  I find it rude, but that is their culture.


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## Wysiwyg (14 July 2008)

The deep seated belief in a god, which will likely be perpetuated for the term of human life on this planet, binds large groups together.Without this large group bonding (via belief) there might have been widespread chaos on Earth with many smaller groups roaming the planet.Many small groups with stranger beliefs. 

They seek good in people, are not super-beings and are a necessary weaving in the fabric of societies.


.


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## roland (14 July 2008)

just another reason to stay clear of the city - also gives the terrorists a larger area of interest than my locality


SORRY JUST A JOKE - for the sensitive ones!


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## disarray (14 July 2008)

living in sydney there always something going on causing street closures or mass gatherings of people. sports events, concerts, festivals, pilgrims, whatever, its hundreds of thousands of people shuffling around the city and its constant, so its not that much of a hardship to most people. a bit of expenditure in public transport would make a world of difference, people are even protesting against more roadworks and demanding more buses and trains, but unfortunately state government attracts cretins so nothing will ever change.

i see what the nuisance law is trying to do, its to stop other people being deliberately offensive. in the old days if someone was an obnoxious prick you could belt them, but now if you do its your fault blah blah. so the christians just want to celebrate their faith, praise spaghetti monster, have a big love in, then go home and make babies under controlled conditions so we don't Populate or Perish. 

but no, all these other douchebags aren't content with just making a civilised point, they want to walk into the middle of it and protest and hand out condoms and deliberately make the pilgrims feel uncomfortable. how about doing that outside friday prayers at lakemba mosque because islam punishes homosexuality with death? thought not.

it's really starting to piss me off, some people can run around like assholes and suffer little consequence, while generally unoffensive people who take a stand get screwed. its a shame the nuisance law is necessary but if you don't let people stand up for themselves then you need to draft laws to stand up for them. so there you go.

i'd prefer to hit someone, its much more civilised.


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## juw177 (14 July 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> High AUD, high oil prices.  Tourism Australia and RET need to do something.  Good publicity for Australia, good for the economy, potential of attracting skilled foreign workers at the same time.
> 
> Just a few thoughts.




A little bit of Howard rhetoric (propaganda) there?

Attracting more migrant workers means our wages go down, our infrastructure overloaded, our land overdeveloped and inflation in general.

Unless you are a property developer I dont see the benefit out weighing the cost.


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## MRC & Co (14 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> A little bit of Howard rhetoric (propaganda) there?
> 
> Attracting more migrant workers means our wages go down
> 
> and inflation in general.




Tourist dollars are bad are they?  Not just for economic growth, but the Australian trade balance?  

Immigration in areas of skill shortages will at least aid wage inflation and social wellbeing.  Unless you want to spend 17 hours at emergency?  

Whilst Howard definately went too far IMO (and I was happy when he got booted), all he spoke was not simply rhetoric, the man actually knew a thing or two.


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## 2020hindsight (15 July 2008)

well , Sydney has put on a ripper day for it 
Hopefully it stays around for the week. 

Saw a group of French-speaking students in town - including some bloke with a giant yellow flag - reminded me of Don Quixote lol - almost using it like a lance jokingly - up and down the platform at Wynyard as a marshalling point for the trains arriving - 

I asked his friend "what's with the flag ?" 
"eet eez zee Vatican flag" I was told  
"but no, we are no Swiss guards?" 
- had a good laugh together .  

great atmosphere in town - thousands of different accents.

Anecdote #2 - my friend is billetting some young pilgrims - turns out they are from IRAQ - (we have some delightful Iraqis who are the cleaners at work btw) 
Anyway, their visas were slow coming through - they will arrive late Wednesday - after much of the festivities for the youngsters


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## agro (15 July 2008)

as a catholic, i regret not going! i will be glued to the tv when it's on SBS this arvo 

an event which gathers together the many people from across the world strengthens my belief which is often hard to do living in a secular country such as australia..


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## ghotib (15 July 2008)

I've been reminding myself for months that before the Olympics Sydney was full of negativity and predictions of doom which were all proved wrong. But this is different, IMO. 

The best thing to be said for it so far is that the Sydney Catholic Church has made such a shambles of its own arrangements that it's made the NSW state government look like competent planners, which is a miracle if you like. 

What kind of institution invites "youth" from all over the world and after they arrive has to start asking the public for blankets? 

What kind of muddleheads declare a world youth DAY and never get around to telling anyone in the city at large which of the 5, 6, or 7 days of disruption it's supposed to be. It's not a day, it's a week. Or something. 

Even before that, Sydney has an Olympics precinct which was set up for major events - so how come the church and the government between them changed the venue to the state's major race course and are compensating the AJC from public funds. 

The "Annoyance Law" is a disgrace. So is a leader of a major religion who declares climate change a major moral issue but continues to treat condoms as some kind of threat to human life.  Not to mention flying a corpse all over the globe.

I don't wish the "pilgrims" - or are they tourists - any harm and I have no doubt they'll have a great time. Why wouldn't they? Woodstock - the first one - was a great time for large numbers of youth too. As a religious event this is quite big and will no doubt be meaningful to many. Why wouldn't it. The Billy Graham crusades were. The hajj is every year, though that's much bigger than this event. 

I also acknowledge that these tourists are much more fun than the APEC - or was it OPEC - mob. Though the Chaser might not agree.

But as a public benefit. Bah Humbug!!


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## 2020hindsight (15 July 2008)

ghotib said:


> I also acknowledge that these tourists are much more fun than the APEC - or was it OPEC - mob. Though the Chaser might not agree.



rofl m8  

As for the Chasers, I heard them say last week - "It's much harder to hire a decoy Pope-mobile than a stretch limo "


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## ghotib (15 July 2008)

UPDATE:  The court has thrown out the annoyance law. Cop that young Iemma.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world-youth-day/no-to-annoy-laws-court/2008/07/15/1215887596459.html


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## cuttlefish (15 July 2008)

I have no problem at all with the pilgrims being here and I hope its a great event for them, but I am opposed to the nuisance legislation and see it as quite hypocritical that the government is willing to pander to one religious group in this way.


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## disarray (15 July 2008)

i think it was more a "proof of concept" thing. if it was successful it could then be applied to anything at all, like APEC or protests outside parliament house or anyone with enough clout to get it enacted for their big event.

unless anyone knows about the machinations i'd imagine it was more about getting the legislation through and tested than "pandering to christians". any kind of mass social gathering could have been eligible for this law.


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## juw177 (15 July 2008)

The last time we had a worldwide event in Australia was the Olympic torch relay and all the attendees were portrayed as brainwashed people that hate other cultures (Tibetans). The hypocrisy is quite sickening.

Sorry for the rant. That was not aimed at you disarray.


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## sam76 (15 July 2008)

"I lost my virginity at World Youth Day"


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## Rafa (15 July 2008)

tend to agree disarray, it was a stupid peice of legislation thats served no purpose other than test how far the big brother govt can further infringe upon the rest of society in the long term.



as for WYD... yeah, its a great event, having been to one myself in Canada... its  like being at world cup soccer tournament, or the carnivalle in rio, without the sex, drugs and alcohol... good clean fun, as they used to say. i think you'll find there are more cultures and religions participating in this event that you would find at a UN gathering, which only adds to it even more.

i would appeal to any sydneysiders, if you are free, to check out the atmophere and the entertainment.... certainly, i wouldn't be it comparing to the hajj, which is a rather more serious event, and is stipulated under islamic law as a must do event.


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## professor_frink (15 July 2008)

Rafa said:


> as for WYD... yeah, its a great event, having been to one myself in Canada... *its  like being at world cup soccer tournament, or the carnivalle in rio, without the sex, drugs and alcohol*... good clean fun, as they used to say.




pfffft

What's the point of that?


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## bassmanpete (15 July 2008)

I agree with disarray & Rafa. Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Our freedoms have been eroded in recent years and this was an attempt to go a step farther. Thank FSM for the courts


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## 2020hindsight (15 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Saw a group of French-speaking students in town - including some bloke with a giant yellow flag - reminded me of Don Quixote lol - almost using it like a lance jokingly - up and down the platform at Wynyard as a marshalling point for the trains arriving -
> 
> I asked his friend "what's with the flag ?"
> "eet eez zee Vatican flag" I was told
> ...



a couple of photos to capture the confusion in town - and that yellow Vatican flag dude 


Hey does anyone know if the Pope brought his personal army ?  ( as the Chinese torch relay did?)
PS I reckon he starves them


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## Boggo (15 July 2008)

And if anyone gets bored while in Sydney and would like something to read then try this... 
http://www.oneinfour.ie/about/fernsreport/

Mike


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## 2020hindsight (15 July 2008)

lol - The Pilgrim's Progress?  or the Pilgrim's Egress? 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/15/2304288.htm


> Missing WYD pilgrims suspected of visa scam
> Posted Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:00am AEST
> Updated 3 hours 58 minutes ago
> 
> ...


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## Julia (15 July 2008)

Boggo said:


> And if anyone gets bored while in Sydney and would like something to read then try this...
> http://www.oneinfour.ie/about/fernsreport/
> 
> Mike



And the Catholic Church is bemused about the antipathy towards it!
Just in this last week Cardinal Pell's appallingly disingenuous account of his handling of the current sexual abuse case was breathtaking.


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## cuttlefish (15 July 2008)

I was away last week and missed this story - disgusting - looks like its as rotten as it ever was - makes me sick that these people (i.e. Pell et al) cover this stuff up and still hold positions of power and claim the moral high ground - doesn't do anything for my view of the catholic church as an institution.


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## CAB SAV (15 July 2008)

The Pope told thousands in Sydney today that Jesus is Alive, does this mean that our Easter holidays are cancelled?


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## chops_a_must (16 July 2008)

Why does the church have such a boner for the youth?

Oh wait...


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## 2020hindsight (16 July 2008)

chops 


			
				chops-with-mustard said:
			
		

> If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?




If a pandemonium is where they make teddy bears
and a condominium is where they make condoms 
does that mean that the Vatican is where they make vats?

PS if serenity means saying prayers and stuff, 
does that mean that amenity is when they say AMEN at the end ?


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## bunyip (16 July 2008)

cuttlefish said:


> I was away last week and missed this story - disgusting - looks like its as rotten as it ever was - makes me sick that these people (i.e. Pell et al) cover this stuff up and still hold positions of power and claim the moral high ground - doesn't do anything for my view of the catholic church as an institution.




Absolutely agree. And now this organisation with a horrific record of sexual abuse and cover-ups among its upper echelon, holds this massive event in Sydney that disrupts ordinary people in their everyday lives. 
If they want to hold a big rally they should have to hire one of the sporting grounds where they can rally to their hearts content, with minimal disruption to the general public who just want to get on with their day to day lives. Better still, they could head for a patch of unoccupied scrub out of the city somewhere, just like the Gympie County Music Muster does in Queensland, where they can hold their event in comfort without affecting others who don't want to be involved.

Having said all that, I'd still rather have this particular group rallying in mid city, than to have the gay mardigras mob doing the same sort of thing. At least most of these young Catholics seem like decent enough people. As Julia has pointed out, they're a big improvement on the junkies and drunks and weirdos and violent scum who are all too common in today's society.


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## Rafa (16 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> Having said all that, I'd still rather have this particular group rallying in mid city, than to have the gay mardigras mob doing the same sort of thing. At least most of these young Catholics seem like decent enough people. As Julia has pointed out, they're a big improvement on the junkies and drunks and weirdos and violent scum who are all too common in today's society.




child abuse is something that permeated every facet of society, and almost all groups have covered it up... be they religious groups, or govt based secular groups (foster care, family services, etc)... or even teachers at govt/private schools.

i know a lot of male teachers who still feel the stigma of being a male teacher amongst kids, just because of the actions of a few. likewise, its hard not to feel for the 99% of good priests out there who a diligently going about their work.

I guess the older generation simply thought differently on how to deal with this issue, i.e. cover things up to up hold reputations.... Hopefully the church will have the sense to realise that the only way up hold ones reputation and stop this re-occuring, is to have a open, transparent process for dealing with this.

Its the same with the protestors... if people want to be angry and protest about anything... let them... its a free country. In fact its better for protestors to mingle with the pilgrims cause then they can see what the church is all about, and there is a lot more good to it than simply the narrow focus of their protest.

PS: not being able to go there myself…any photos/clips of the pilgrims would be great…


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## nioka (16 July 2008)

CAB SAV said:


> The Pope told thousands in Sydney today that Jesus is Alive, does this mean that our Easter holidays are cancelled?



 Only for the non-believers. An athiest is a hypocrite to take a religous holiday, are they not?


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## bunyip (16 July 2008)

nioka said:


> Only for the non-believers. An athiest is a hypocrite to take a religous holiday, are they not?




more.



So what should atheists do.....turn up at their usual workplace, only to find the doors or gates locked so they can't get in?


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## chops_a_must (16 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> So what should atheists do.....turn up at their usual workplace, only to find the doors or gates locked so they can't get in?



The beauty of working for yourself.

It's not like you can go out and have fun on "Good" but **** boring Friday. So, you might as well work.

Unfortunately though, the workload is usually dictated by other people's choices.


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## 2020hindsight (16 July 2008)

nioka said:


> Only for the non-believers. An athiest is a hypocrite to take a religous holiday, are they not?




Personally I believe Jesus was born and died (hence I happily take off Christmas and Good Friday).  Just that I'm not so sure about the resurrection bit -  but that's on a Sunday so it's not controversial.  

Hey - ! If Johnny Howard can take a holiday for Labour Day, I can take a holiday for the Queen's birthday as well  

PS anyone know when Charlie's birthday falls?  (in duke horse of course), when the Queen retires?


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## 2020hindsight (16 July 2008)

:topic
And speaking of Queen's Birthday holiday ..   I notice the Pilbara could care less when they take it lol.


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## Julia (16 July 2008)

Back to the topic of the Catholic Church, here is an extract from Crikey today:



> Sorry to break your reverie Bishop.
> 
> "The cardinal and I were otherwise occupied last night enjoying the youth festival so we didn't see the Lateline story. All I've seen is the reports in the newspapers today."
> 
> ...


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## Dezza (16 July 2008)

Good thing is that I can cross George St (main street in City of Sydney) without looking left or right for buses or cars! 

But good on the Pilgrims...pumping money into the local economy. Saw a whole bunch of them worshipping the other beloved symbol, the Golden Arches!


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## Dukey (16 July 2008)

Scary stuff ... it's like...'if we just ignore these annoying wingers, the whole abuse issue will all go away'.   Any apology will be empty words unless real & strong actions are taken IMO.  
As for WYD...how about "Catholic Youth Day".  It's like the US baseball 'world series' where only the USA plays in it!!!!!!

Generally, I'm all for a moral compass.... and I guess a rock star pope is a better role model than Brittany, but I'd prefer to think people can apply the golden rule and judge right/wrong for themselves... somehow it all looks like "the Blind Dogma leading the Blind" to me.... a well organised publicity and recruitment drive.

- no offense meant here , but I guess some may be offended anyway.... just my take on all this at the mo.   
... Maybe I'm just a super-cynic.
-Dukey


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## wayneL (16 July 2008)

Perhaps people focus on the clergy too much when considering Catholicism.

The clergy cop a caning and bloody deservedly so. That George Pell probably has 666 tattooed somewhere out of sight.

But in my experience there are a lot of sincere, nice and gentle folk amongst the rank and file and whether we believe in their version of whatever, we should cut them some slack if they aren't hurting anyone.

...but continue to give the hierarchy a bloody hard time.


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## ghotib (16 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> Having said all that, I'd still rather have this particular group rallying in mid city, than to have the gay mardigras mob doing the same sort of thing. At least most of these young Catholics seem like decent enough people. As Julia has pointed out, they're a big improvement on the junkies and drunks and weirdos and violent scum who are all too common in today's society.



BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!

Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again. 

How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.


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## Sprinter79 (16 July 2008)

In any group you will find nice sincere people, and you will find evil, power at all cost people. Just because they claim to be religious, they shouldn't be exempt from proper processes, and shouldn't be protected just because they are Holier than thou...


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## Sprinter79 (17 July 2008)

And the other thing that ****s me is why does the Catholic Church have exclusive rights over 'Youth'

A significant amount of the people I've seen on TV as part of the WYD coverage have looked very much past their youth by date....


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## wayneL (17 July 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> In any group you will find nice sincere people, and you will find evil, power at all cost people. Just because they claim to be religious, they shouldn't be exempt from proper processes, and shouldn't be protected just because they are Holier than thou...



Yes.

But I think some people dish them out an extra scoop of vitriol because of the clergy.

They cop more than some violent groups even. It doesn't seem balanced.

Mind you if they come the whole "holier than though" BS, dish it up to them I say. I just think most don't.


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## Sprinter79 (17 July 2008)

Well, if you belong to a group where the leaders do their very best to hide, protect and promote criminals, while at the same time humiliating the victim and making their life a living hell because they "won't go away quietly", well, you're gonna cop a fair bit.


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## ghotib (17 July 2008)

You're probably right that most don't. Unfortunately it seems a disproportionate number of those who do are at the top of the organisational hierarchy.


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## wayneL (17 July 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> Well, if you belong to a group where the leaders do their very best to hide, protect and promote criminals, while at the same time humiliating the victim and making their life a living hell because they "won't go away quietly", well, you're gonna cop a fair bit.




Applies to a number of groups doesn't it?

Police
Politicians
Big business
Unions
Medicos
Legal profession
et al.


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## Sprinter79 (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> Applies to a number of groups doesn't it?
> 
> Police
> Politicians
> ...




How many of those groups has been involved in child sexual abuse to the same level as the Catholic Church?


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## wayneL (17 July 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> How many of those groups has been involved in child sexual abuse to the same level as the Catholic Church?



I don't know.

I sincerely hope none.


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## Sprinter79 (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I sincerely hope none.




Well, I'm not sure if you can compare those other groups in this way.

How anyone can belong to an organisation, that, through its inability to act and level of inertia on the matter, tacitly supports the abuses that have been commited is beyond me.


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## cuttlefish (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps people focus on the clergy too much when considering Catholicism.
> 
> The clergy cop a caning and bloody deservedly so. That George Pell probably has 666 tattooed somewhere out of sight.
> 
> ...





Wayne while I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I agree that the 'rank and file' as you describe them are generaly decent people, the fact is that leaders can only be leaders if they have followers.   There are plenty of examples throughout history of 'good decent people' supporting tyrannical leaders that committed all sorts of atrocities.

It would appear that the leadership of the Catholic church has not grasped the significance of the crimes that their institution has perpetrated against children - and pithy throw away marks like the one made by the organiser of world youth day today dismissing it as whinging about old wounds should be condemmed by the 'rank and file' followers.

If the 'rank and file' followers knowingly and willingly support leaders that cover up or brush away serious crimes then they stand to be judged along side those leaders.  They are also getting poor moral guidance from an instution who's primary purpose seems to be to provide moral guidance.

We know who the ultimate judge is in the catholic belief system and apparently he doesn't go too easy on those that don't acknowledge their wrongdoings.


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## wayneL (17 July 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> Well, I'm not sure if you can compare those other groups in this way.
> 
> How anyone can belong to an organisation, that, through its inability to act and level of inertia on the matter, tacitly supports the abuses that have been commited is beyond me.



Well I'm not here to defend the Catholic faith. I think it pretty much sucks.

But I don't think Catholics view themselves as belonging to an "organization", they don't see it as optional. 

Is there support for criminal clergymen, tacit or otherwise, in the rank and file?

This is a question I don't have an answer too, but the few Catholics I know (One a victim of her own father) don't, and would be happy to be rid of Pell and his ilk. That's all I can say.


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## Boggo (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> Is there support for criminal clergymen, tacit or otherwise, in the rank and file?




This is the very problem wayne, the level of support, from intelligent followers, from astute business people, from the weak who are afraid to speak up etc etc.

All of the responses from the likes of Pell etc are the same worldwide, they are not directed at the families of the victims, the comments are directed at the followers and add to their brainwashed views to remove or erase any doubt that may exist, and in most cases are an attempt to cast doubt on the integrity of the victims.

The constant and number one initial response of Pell and his ilk are to discredit the victim, and their immediate families if they attempt pursue these criminals and don't go away quietly.

The "Ferns Report" that I mentioned in an earlier post is very diplomatic report that had to be published.

The detail and actual facts are beyond anything that Hollywood could ever invent.

Under what other circumstances could an individual continue committing the same crime for 30 years in the same community while the 'followers' knew about it and turned a blind eye (_because speaking out against the church is speaking out against god !_)

Mike


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## cuttlefish (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> But I don't think Catholics view themselves as belonging to an "organization", they don't see it as optional.




Then what do they belong to?   If they just want to believe in God  and study the bible then they don't need to be part of the Catholic church. The Catholic church is an institution, being Catholic is being part of that institution, I can't see how the two can be dissected.  

Regardless of whether the members of the church consider it voluntary or not the simple fact is that it _is_ a voluntary choice and in making the choice they are choosing to be part of the institution.


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## wayneL (17 July 2008)

Boggo said:


> This is the very problem wayne, the level of support, from intelligent followers, from astute business people, from the weak who are afraid to speak up etc etc.
> 
> All of the responses from the likes of Pell etc are the same worldwide, they are not directed at the families of the victims, the comments are directed at the followers and add to their brainwashed views to remove or erase any doubt that may exist, and in most cases are an attempt to cast doubt on the integrity of the victims.
> 
> ...



I hear what you're saying and likewise shudder with rage at the injustice and downright inhumanity of these people... not to mention the hypocrisy.

But here is my problem:

If I meet someone, find that they are kind, generous - virtuous in every way and decide that they make it to my circle of close and trusted friends. I then find out they are Catholic. What then? Should I now despise them because of their complicity by association?

I think not.

Why? Because then I must extrapolate that attitude out to my entire race (Anglo Saxon). By being an enthusiastic supporter of my own culture I become complicit in all of it's crimes, both past and current.

My race has practiced genocide, racism, apartheid, stolen land, stolen resources, destroyed cultures, and murdered innocents wholesale. Should I now despise myself and every white person of British extraction?

Of course not! Yet look how our leaders spin out justifications and excuses for all the above.

Glass house etc.


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

ghotib said:


> BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!
> 
> Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again.
> 
> How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.




lol - some ripper posts here 
thanks I needed a smile to start the day ( after the last fortnight of the market ) 

PS I posted this on another thread ..  



2020hindsight said:


> Cardinal Pell : quote of the century... (concerning Emma Foster)
> (just heard him say it on ABC news)
> 
> "*It is one of the worst things that can happen to a young girl ... to commit suicide*"
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

PS but Pell has a clear conscience - heck - he offered to negotiate a deal with her out of court - UP TO max of $50K - for being raped as a primary school kid  (6 year old?) 

the man gives new meaning/emphasis to the word 'detestable'.


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## cuttlefish (17 July 2008)

wayneL said:


> I hear what you're saying and likewise shudder with rage at the injustice and downright inhumanity of these people... not to mention the hypocrisy.
> 
> But here is my problem:
> 
> ...




The debate here as I understand it is about the actions of the present leadership of the institution of the Catholic church. The argument being presented is that the Church is not genuinely taking steps to acknowledge and seek forgiveness for the wrongdoings of the past, but instead still has leadership in place that supports covering up or brushing aside those wrong doings and thus is continuing to prolong the misery of the past victims of the church.

The point being made was that if someone is a member of an institution it is reasonable to interpret that they implicitly support the current leadership of that institution. They would have to take some active step to counter this implicit assumption. (e.g. something as simple as a comment that they are unhappy with the leadership or the way the leadership is handling things) 

The extrapolation of these points is that people that are members of the institution of the Catholic church are members of that institution by choice, and if they are not in some way voicing  or expressing their disagreement with the current actions of that institution then they are implicitly supporting those current actions, and it is this implicit support enables those actions to continue.

These are the only points being made.  On the subject of deciding whether to include an individual that participates in the church in ones circle of friends, this depends entirely on the individual situation of how one views the church and its current behaviour, and how one views the individual member of the church and their way of participating, and how they reconcile that with their other emotional interactions, practical needs and moral convictions - this is a complex decision entirely dependent on the personality of the inviduals involved, and it is not the subject of this debate as far as I can tell.


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

and Pell can stick to what he's good at for mine - 
not sure what that is but .... 

it sure aint the science of the spreading of HIV 
or global warming / climate change 

Here's an unfortunate joke he made about sacrificing vir...  ahhh humans (- he doesn't use the word virgins)  - either way, sad but true that it ends up being relevant  

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234973&highlight=pell#post234973



> Cardinal Pell says in the past, pagans sacrificed (animals and even) humans in vain attempts to placate the gods but today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions


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## bunyip (17 July 2008)

ghotib said:


> BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!
> 
> Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again.
> 
> How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.





I'm not defending the Catholic church. Far from it......it's an organisation that I dislike intensely. I believe it deserves the criticism and condemnation it gets.
However, I stick with my view that the general behaviour and standards of the young people involved in the rally are a big improvement on the behaviour and standards of certain unsavoury elements within our society.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for some of their priests and leaders.


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## bunyip (17 July 2008)

Something that's a mystery to me is why religious leaders get such worship and adoration. What exactly have these people done to deserve being put up on a pedestal and regarded by so many as role models.

I can see many qualities in people who have been very successful in business without sacrificing their integrity, who obviously have a caring nature and have given millions or even billions of dollars to help those less fortunate than themselves, who have raised families and have been dedicated wives, husbands, fathers, mothers etc, who are involved in local charities and community service organisations, and so on.
But someone like the Pope....how many of these qualities does he possess? I'm sure he's a good bloke with some admirable qualities, but heck, are his qualities and his achievements so fantastic that he deserves the level of idolisation he enjoys?
Do Catholics ever stop and ask themselves these sorts of questions about their leader? Or do they just blindly embrace this adoration routine because it's the done thing in their religion.
I'd like to hear from some practising Catholics to get their views on this.


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## chops_a_must (17 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> However, I stick with my view that the general behaviour and standards of the young people involved in the rally are a big improvement on the behaviour and standards of certain unsavoury elements within our society.



That's because they are brain washed dimwits, not harmful to boundaries of thought, let alone other people.

I'm sure the Hitler Youth were pretty damn well behaved too!


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## disarray (17 July 2008)

most of the sheeple are brain washed dimwits, what is important is values and nature. christians follow a good set of values and (currently) maintain a pleasant nature, so i'm happy for them to be here and believe whatever they want.

i don't get why people are raging at pilgrims because the leadership is corrupt.


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## agro (17 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> Something that's a mystery to me is why religious leaders get such worship and adoration. What exactly have these people done to deserve being put up on a pedestal and regarded by so many as role models.
> 
> I can see many qualities in people who have been very successful in business without sacrificing their integrity, who obviously have a caring nature and have given millions or even billions of dollars to help those less fortunate than themselves, who have raised families and have been dedicated wives, husbands, fathers, mothers etc, who are involved in local charities and community service organisations, and so on.
> But someone like the Pope....how many of these qualities does he possess? I'm sure he's a good bloke with some admirable qualities, but heck, are his qualities and his achievements so fantastic that he deserves the level of idolisation he enjoys?
> ...






chops_a_must said:


> That's because they are brain washed dimwits, not harmful to boundaries of thought, let alone other people.
> 
> I'm sure the Hitler Youth were pretty damn well behaved too!






disarray said:


> most of the sheeple are brain washed dimwits, what is important is values and nature. christians follow a good set of values and (currently) maintain a pleasant nature, so i'm happy for them to be here and believe whatever they want.
> 
> i don't get why people are raging at pilgrims because the leadership is corrupt.




i am a practicing catholic and could not imagine a less fulfilling life without god considering the amount I have achieved. I know that come the time of my death, my soul will rise to heaven and live in eternal happiness 

Comments like the ones above do continue to test my belief, but i know never to succumb to them.

it never ceases to surprise me the number of non-believers that make it seem as though having a faith (and a soul once more) is stupidity ("we are brainwashed" ). To be quiet frank, without God (and a spirit) one is just lowering them self to the status of an animal (animals don't believe nor attend church). 

And as far as worshiping the pope, well the first original pope I believe goes back to biblical times, so the tradition has carried over in history..  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope


enough said for me - this is a controversial matter but go forth in peace


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## chops_a_must (17 July 2008)

agro said:


> it never ceases to surprise me the number of non-believers that make it seem as though having a faith (and a soul once more) is stupidity ("we are brainwashed" ). To be quiet frank, without God (and a spirit) one is just lowering them self to the status of an animal (animals don't believe nor attend church).



So if the lord is your shepherd, you aren't an animal? If you are in a flock, what are you?

But you know, if anyone has ever read Plato, and understood it, there is no need to pay attention to christianity - because that's what it is anyway. No need to learn a philosophy or a way of life whilst being confined by the say so of others.


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> and Pell can stick to what he's good at for mine -
> not sure what that is but ....
> 
> it sure aint the science of the spreading of HIV
> or global warming / climate change




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/17/2306912.htm?section=justin


Well I've got a hell of a lot more time for the Pope than I have for Pell
And he's obviously much better informed  



			
				Pell said:
			
		

> Cardinal Pell says in the past, pagans sacrificed (animals and even) humans in vain attempts to placate the gods but today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions






> Pope makes special mention of environment during welcome
> Posted 2 hours 42 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 31 minutes ago
> 
> ...




Now to get him to see the light about condoms


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## juw177 (17 July 2008)

People having different beliefs is all good, just don't ram it down my throat. I am not talking about the pilgrims as I havent been approached any preachers. I am talking about the government, TV, newspapers selling this event to us as the best thing to happen to Sydney since APEC.


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> People having different beliefs is all good, just don't ram it down my throat. I am not talking about the pilgrims as I havent been approached any preachers. I am talking about the government, TV, newspapers selling this event to us as the best thing to happen to Sydney since APEC.




gonna cost us a fortune juw  - 
to say nothing of Randwick being closed this weekend.  .... 
 just as long as we ALL don't have to queue up to kiss the Pope's ring.


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## disarray (17 July 2008)

why get all worked up about it? i've hardly seen it advertised, most of the cost is probably just pope management, and i've hardly noticed a thing despite living next door to the main event. 

+ pic


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## chops_a_must (17 July 2008)

Thanks for that Disarray. 

Never knew Darwin and Cape York were so full of Jews!


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## Sprinter79 (17 July 2008)

agro said:


> i am a practicing catholic and could not imagine a less fulfilling life without god considering the amount I have achieved. I know that come the time of my death, my soul will rise to heaven and live in eternal happiness
> 
> Comments like the ones above do continue to test my belief, but i know never to succumb to them.
> 
> ...




Having faith in something based on logic and rationale isn't stupid, but having blind faith is. I've never seen a god, but I have seen plenty of examples of Darwin's theories at work. 

And, how do we know that animals don't believe or attend church? Aren't humans animals anyway?


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## Julia (17 July 2008)

bunyip said:


> Something that's a mystery to me is why religious leaders get such worship and adoration. What exactly have these people done to deserve being put up on a pedestal and regarded by so many as role models.



This puzzles me also.  Listening to ABC's 'PM" this evening, various devotees gave their thrilled accounts of having caught a glimpse of the Pope.  As far as I can tell, he's a bloke - a politician essentially - who has climbed the Catholic ladder of success and for now holds the CEO's position.

There seems to have been a widespread expectation that His Holiness (I think that's the correct term, but then isn't the Dalai Lama also addressed thus?) would deliver an apology for the sexual abuse delivered by the good Catholic fathers. So far, zilch.   

Agro:  thanks for expressing your view.  Pretty brave thing to do amongst the current scorn most of us are expressing.
I don't have any criticism of anyone for their religious/spiritual beliefs.
I think this thread is not on about that, but rather the base hypocrisy of the church hierarchy, and the blind following of its disciples.
Big difference between personal spiritual belief and religion, imo.


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## 2020hindsight (17 July 2008)

A question that didn't get asked of the ABC's Q-AND-A Panel ...  (hell that's a good show )

"If sex is so fundamental to creation and life why does the catholic church encourage the billings method? do people having heterosexual sex without the intention of producing a child also become "empty vessels for sex"? "


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## disarray (18 July 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Thanks for that Disarray.
> 
> Never knew Darwin and Cape York were so full of Jews!




its traditional / tribal. clean your monitor


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## Sean K (18 July 2008)

Does anyone else giggle when they see 'The Pope Mobile' rolling about?

Or, just cringe with a 'what the fvck?' look on their face?


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## chops_a_must (18 July 2008)

disarray said:


> its traditional / tribal. clean your monitor




Yeah, everything looks pearly white on here.

By the way:


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## agro (18 July 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> Having faith in something based on logic and rationale isn't stupid, but having blind faith is. I've never seen a god, but I have seen plenty of examples of Darwin's theories at work.
> 
> And, how do we know that animals don't believe or attend church? Aren't humans animals anyway?




you can read all the theories you like but *nothing* can disprove god's existence 

so yes it may be a blind faith i am living, but that's not to say there isn't a god..

one will only find out the day of their death i guess... personally i rather leave the face of this planet knowing and believing in god than being shortsighted to any existence.

at the end of the day we will all be judged equally.


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## Sean K (18 July 2008)

agro said:


> you can read all the theories you like but *nothing* can disprove god's existence
> 
> so yes it may be a blind faith i am living, but that's not to say there isn't a god..
> 
> ...



1. Nothing can prove it, otherwise we would all believe.
2. Living blindly is not living.
3. No, when you die, you are dead.
4. No, you will not be judged, we are judged in this life. 

Good luck, in the afterlife, up on that cloud.


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## Ageo (18 July 2008)

What amazes me is that so many people out their worry about everyone else's beliefs/problems etc...

Who gives a crap if the guy next door worships the grass? if it works for him then sensational!

As long as there is no trouble then there shouldnt be a problem. People having a good time and celebrating something should be a good thing right?


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## Sean K (18 July 2008)

Ageo said:


> What amazes me is that so many people out their worry about everyone else's beliefs/problems etc...
> 
> Who gives a crap if the guy next door worships the grass? if it works for him then sensational!
> 
> As long as there is no trouble then there shouldnt be a problem. People having a good time and celebrating something should be a good thing right?



Yes, I agree Ageo.

If only organised religion didn't brainwash people from an early age, and the rest......then I'd agree with you.


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## bunyip (18 July 2008)

agro said:


> i am a practicing catholic and could not imagine a less fulfilling life without god considering the amount I have achieved. I know that come the time of my death, my soul will rise to heaven and live in eternal happiness
> 
> Comments like the ones above do continue to test my belief, but i know never to succumb to them.
> 
> ...




Your view that people lower themselves to the status of animals if they don't embrace the God/spirit thing is, in my view, silly in the extreme. And quite offensive to the many good, decent and worthwhile people out there who don't believe in God. You're right in saying that animals don't believe nor attend church. But a more balanced viewpoint would also point out that neither do animals make breakthrough discoveries in science, industry and technology, build hospitals to care for their sick, make breakthroughs in medicine and healthcare, etc etc etc. 
Does it not occur to you that by having the ability and the willingness to do all these things, we humans put ourselves on a completely different level to other species of animals, regardless of whether we do or don't believe in God?  



As for you 'knowing' that your soul will go to heaven, the fact is that you know nothing of the sort. Clearly you believe it very strongly, but belief does not make it fact. 
Islamic terrorists also believe that they're headed for the same place you claim you're going to. It would be interesting indeed to know how you'll cope with them if you all find yourselves bundled together in the same place!
And if you (or your soul) do in fact end up where you think you will, then it stands to reason that the last few thousand years will have produced quite a few billion people just like you who have died and gone to heaven before you. And since life is supposedly eternal in heaven, these billions of people, or their souls, will still be there, crowding the place to breaking point. So how exactly do you think that you and several  million more people who die at around the same time as you do, are going to comfortably fit into such an overcrowded place? Or live harmoniously with each other?
I'm not trying to have a go at you with these questions, and I don't expect you to answer them on a public forum. But if you're a responsible and intelligent person then you owe it to yourself to at least consider them.


If tradition is the only reason you can give for hero-worshipping the pope, then I'd suggest it's a very poor reason. The world is full of pointless traditions. 
But anyway, you've confirmed my belief that the hero-worship lavished on the pope is simply a case of Catholics embracing the adoration routine because it's the done thing in their religion.
99.9% of the population, including most Catholics, had never heard of the pope prior to his appointment to the top job. To the best of my knowledge he wasn't a noteworthy man who had made magnificent contributions to his fellow humans and to the world in general. Yet as soon as he's appointed pope he becomes an instant hero to millions, a shining light who can do no wrong. It's just too silly for words.

Anyway, the discussion has strayed off track, as discussions tend to do. So to get back to commenting on the Catholic youth festival......I saw on TV last night that many of the young people in attendance are taking the opportunity to have a good old booze up, with a certain amount of associated drunken, silly behaviour, although nothing too serious at this stage.
The TV reporter asked several drunken groups "Is this the way his holiness would like you to behave at a Catholic youth festival"?
He received some silly, high-spirited and drunken replies that were mostly unintelligible.
Not that I'm condemning anyone having a bit of a booze up....done the same thing myself plenty of times. Just making the point that the squeaky clean behaviour exhibited by these young people at the start of the festival is not quite so squeaky clean any longer, at least for some of them.

Incidentally Agro.....thanks for posting your views. You must have known you'd cop some criticism but you went ahead anyway. I admire you for that.


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## Doris (18 July 2008)

agro said:


> i am a practicing catholic and could not imagine a less fulfilling life without god considering the amount I have achieved. I know that come the time of my death, my soul will rise to heaven and live in eternal happiness
> 
> Comments like the ones above do continue to test my belief, but i know never to succumb to them.
> 
> ...




After a visit to Costa Maya (on a Caribbean cruise) last year I pondered the fact that throughout history, no matter how primitive, humans have always believed in a god.  Hence I later bought Richard Dawkins' book _The God Delusion_.  Awesome book.

Historically of course, religious leaders did not 'go forth in peace' nor do many today (radical Muslims... evangelicals in the US)

Buddhists (a philosophy, not a religion) believe we choose our parents for this life in order to resolve the problem from our past life. Our goal is to solve this problem or when we are re-born in the next life we will again suffer until we resolve it.  Enlightenment through meditation.  According to a Buddhist uncle you could reincarnate as an animal if you are cruel to one.  Thus fear based?

Whatever our beliefs, maybe the ultimate personal goal to feel genuine inner peace is not always achieved without _free will_, which 'Jesus/God gave us'.  Obey and go to heaven or else burn in hell! Yet is dominance by a religion '_free will_'?  Personal values evolve with experience from many role model influences, including religious doctrines. Religions all seem to be fear based.  You are the enemy and inferior if you succumb to _free will_ outside of the religious group's beliefs.  Does obeying give you inner peace or does the free will to make the 'right' decision give it?

Happiness is for today not when you die.  This is the only time we really have.  
Gratitude for what you have with your life now, is paramount.  
Your conscience on your death bed will dictate a personal heaven or hell as a consequence.  

Your choice.  Doing the right thing by yourself and others by free will in this life is a personal belief. 
... or you may rot in jail.


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## Sean K (18 July 2008)

Oh God!

I'm not surprised this thread came to the discussion of God.

'God', with a capital G, is a human invention. 

Please, anyone who thinks there is 'God', do some research on thie history of the idea of 'God', with a capital G, and you will have a revelation. 

Now, if you think 'God' is another name for the origin of the universe, or something superior, outside of the Cults of Abraham, I'm all ears. 

Actually, that thread has been done.


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## cuttlefish (18 July 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Thanks for that Disarray.
> 
> Never knew Darwin and Cape York were so full of Jews!






			
				disarray said:
			
		

> its traditional / tribal. clean your monitor





Ah but if you're over that way keep an eye out for all the protestants hiding out in the great sandy desert.


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## chops_a_must (18 July 2008)

agro said:


> you can read all the theories you like but *nothing* can disprove god's existence



Seriously. Lol!

There are only 2 viable arguments for "God's" existence. Neither have anything to do with western religions.

If you have a look at the theories of light bending, it should start you off adequately when it comes to the omnipotence debate. 

But my favourite quote:



> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (21 July 2008)

Whatever else you say - he's either lucky or he has some great contacts  - in that the rain held off yesterday - until about 7.30pm lol.   
Miracle 

in fact the weather was pretty good all week


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## DennisTheTrader (21 July 2008)

I wasnt part of it myself, but the atmosphere in Sydney was vibrant!  Like the olympics.

It doesnt matter to me if they were Catholic or Jewish or Muslim, etc, if their belief can bring their youth all together like that and create an atmosphere of peace and unity (and also some $$$) , then I say bring it on!

We should have more religious and spiritual leaders coming here for a big event. Not to talk differences, but to go for a beer and a game of golf or something.


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## ghotib (21 July 2008)

DennisTheTrader said:


> I wasnt part of it myself, but the atmosphere in Sydney was vibrant!  Like the olympics.



Due respect, but it wasn't like the Olympics. These were large numbers of large groups of happy kids. That was nice to see, but it wasn't like the Olympics.

I've been puzzling over this for a while, and I think the difference is that the Olympics is an event for both insiders and outsiders. The athletes are the insiders, and most of them are happy kids deeply committed to something larger themselves. The vastly larger group is the outsiders: locals from the host city, spectators, and people involved in peripheral events like the Olympics arts festivals. In the Sydney Olympics most of the changes and most of the atmosphere were for the outsiders. World Youth however-long-it-is was only about insiders. In that sense it was more like APEC than the Olympics, although these insiders were probably more interesting, as well as more fun, than those ones.

Ghoti


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## DennisTheTrader (21 July 2008)

I see your point Ghoti, I was only looking at it from a surface level though. ...flags everywhere, happy faces, camera's flashing, musical instruments, tourists getting lost, etc. 
It definitely made the walks to and from work more colourful


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## chops_a_must (21 July 2008)

Anyone go "cherry picking" with these "tourists?"


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## ColB (21 July 2008)

> *Originally Posted by Chops a Must*    Yeah, everything looks pearly white on here.
> 
> By the way:




Might be my warped sense of humour chops but that photo is a cracker.  I reckon 'Luke' must be one of 'The Chasers'.  Would love to have seen how long he remained on the back of group before the Anti Annoyance Enforcers removed him/her?


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## 2020hindsight (3 August 2008)

I reckon the pope (or Pope if you prefer) has left a lasting impression on Sydney. 

I took a photo of the Opera House a couple of nights ago - and no-one was around, and then when I developed it, I get this wing-ed image in the foreground 

PS next weekend is City2surf folks.


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