# VSA - only useful for the bigger boys?



## Blogsy (20 August 2008)

Hiya guys,

So the learning continues.  Have been reading and shakily trying to apply VSA in the past few weeks, but a comment in the "Master the Markets" e-book has given me pause.  Is VSA only applicable for the larger stocks or those that form an index, or can it's application today be used across-the-board?  Have to admit I'm not even sure how popular volume spread analysis is but thought I'd throw the question out there...

Thanks,
Dean


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## CanOz (20 August 2008)

Blogsy said:


> Hiya guys,
> 
> So the learning continues.  Have been reading and shakily trying to apply VSA in the past few weeks, but a comment in the "Master the Markets" e-book has given me pause.  Is VSA only applicable for the larger stocks or those that form an index, or can it's application today be used across-the-board?  Have to admit I'm not even sure how popular volume spread analysis is but thought I'd throw the question out there...
> 
> ...




Any stock is fine as long as there is ample *liquidity*. 

Liquidity can be defined as how easy it is to buy and sell a financial instrument for cash without causing any significant change in its price. 

That way if there is good volume and it affects price, you can draw conclusions from the resulting price action reliably.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## theasxgorilla (21 August 2008)

Blogsy said:


> So the learning continues.  Have been reading and shakily trying to apply VSA in the past few weeks, but a comment in the "Master the Markets" e-book has given me pause.  Is VSA only applicable for the larger stocks or those that form an index, or can it's application today be used across-the-board?  Have to admit I'm not even sure how popular volume spread analysis is but thought I'd throw the question out there...




Well, as motorway says (I think, maybe I still don't get it), its a study of responses.  The lower probability of a single player making such a disproportionate splash on highly liquid instruments (S&P500 futures, for example) means that on most charts you are observing a more pure crowd response.

See if you follow me on this one.  Small cap stock, on most days still what you'd call liquid when measured against the parcel sizes you trade, but there exists serveral really big individual holders, could be founders, directors who bought in early or have accumulated via options etc. whatever.  

A once-off non-company related situation causes them to cease to be a holder.  The response of the market is kind of not that valid, since you already knew the stock wasn't that liquid, so this kind of transaction which arrives out the blue doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the interplay of crowd and 'smart money' activity.  

IMO it just renders the observation of subtleties/responses (VSA) temporarily ineffective.

Similarly, disproportionate activity from outside eg. a takeover bid, can come along and mess up the subtleties again.


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## motorway (21 August 2008)

Think of the structure of the market as an invisible river bed

invisible being key

The only thing that then can make that structure visible is when 
there is "enough" water flowing

You can discern the structure
By the way the water flows

By the study of the responses

the various eddies etc
That reveal a large object ( accumulation ? )

Ok volume in one aspect is the same as the water in the river bed

You need "enough" to discern the structure
TOO much and it's a flood and soon will be reversed

not enough and you can not be sure 
there is any structure at all ( sponsorship )..

As stocks become "hot"
short term speculative flows increase

Everything speeds up


And the "invisible" structure
is to some extent revealed even more

( That is why you take special note of ultra high volume )

Large informed interests have to
buy or sell "first"
ie accumulate or distribute

They have to create support and resistance ( structure )

You can not profit short or long unless
you take a position--first...

So the answer to the question is it works on all
stocks and all time frames

Another way of saying that
is that it works on particular stocks on particular time frames

Wherever the water ( volume ) is flowing

hope the analogy helps

not only is the structure invisible
it is also dynamic 

Hence why
support and resistance
are dynamic
and not static lines on a chart...

What does the smart money do ?

manipulates ( which means it is  not random )

motorway


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## tech/a (21 August 2008)

Having been involved in the study of VSA for around 2 yrs now many of the questions I see posed on the topic are identical to those I have posed myself.

I can only answer these questions from my own experience.

( One thing I have noticed is quite a few Educators use analogies---Wyckoff---Guppy to name 2).

I prefer to use what it is we are looking at.
*Crowd behaviour.*

Lets take 2 crowds.
(1) of 1,000,000
(2) of 10,000.

If 5000 people in crowd 2 panic the structure of the crowd will alter dramatically.
If 5000 people in crowd 1 panic the structure will alter in a minor way in fact you may not be able to discern it.

In trading crowd sizes can be altered purely with timeframes so this also becomes an issue.
Whats happening in a crowd my not be clear in a 15 min timeframe but clearer in a daily.
Vice versa important sharp moves maybe seen earlier in a 15 min timeframe and much later in a daily.
Everyting written in Wyckoffs analogies are true.
But to grip it you must in my view understand the "Crowd" your analysing.
Those in the 15 min crowd may well contol the action within that time frame but its those who take part in the daily which will control that time frame.

Crowds change.
Those in the 15 min frame will come and go quicker than those in the daily.
The thought process of those in the daily will be generally longer term than the 15 min.
Its when time frames *AGREE* that we see major changes.
They gang up and move in a common direction.

This is why structure is important *BOTH* background and immediate.
Will today's structure compel those in past structure to agree or disagree.

Agreement will cause trend,disagreement will cause corrective moves UNTIL something pulls enough of the crowd into agreement.---regardless of direction.

The next question is for how long that agreement lasts,time (and timeframe) will play a part on the crowds behaviour.
They could agree for long or short periods.---in various timeframes.
The longer a timeframe is in agreeance the longer timeframes are likely to become involved.

So in *DIRECT ANSWER* to the question.
I have found that the more volume in a suitable timeframe (Meaning those stocks with massive liquidity like BHP are reliable in lesser timeframes) the more accurate the VSA analysis.

Small caps generally just dont have a large enough crowd to determine a crowd mentality.(Meaning the crowds vary rapidly from in some cases millions to thousands making their behaviour un reliable).


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## Blogsy (21 August 2008)

Right,

So liquidity (or to put it better, sufficiently high liquidity) is the pre-requisite for any stock you hope to apply VSA to with any degree of reliability.  As you say tech/a, the small caps usually don't have that and I've had troubles trying to get anything out of looking at them, so that would explain it.  The crowd analogy really sums it up.

Good explanation motorway, I hadn't thought of volume in a "flowing" context, but it makes sense that if you can find the flow you're able to discern what it may be doing.

Thanks for your answers guys, I'll be more selective which stocks I apply this to now (actually, a volume-based filter might come in handy as well).


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## tech/a (21 August 2008)

This is what I use as a rule of thumb.


Daily/Weekly ASX 500
120/180 min ASX 200
As low as 15 min ASX 100

Although I dont trade FX or other futures I have seen 3 mins used with them.


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## Blogsy (21 August 2008)

Tech/a,

This sounds very ignorant (but I've got to start somewhere), but could you clarify those number? 100,200,500...?  500K trading volumes for a daily/weekly scope, 100K for 15min etc.?  For the foreseeable future I'll be concentrating on the daily/weekly timeframes.


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## tech/a (22 August 2008)

Has nothing to do with volume in the literal sence.

I use the stocks found in the ASX 500 as my universe when looking for VSA setup in daily or weekly charts.


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## GreatPig (22 August 2008)

Just to clarify further, the ASX50 etc. are market indices. The constituents are available from the Standard & Poors website, here for the ASX50, and just change the "asx50" part of the URL to "asx100", "asx200", or "asx300" for the others (not sure about the 500 though, they don't seem to have one of those).

GP


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## Timmy (22 August 2008)

The All Ords is (roughly) the biggest 500.


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## brettc4 (22 August 2008)

I have done a couple of searches in the net for VSA and found very little information.  Are there any good internet resources for this, or is it primarily in books?

Thanks, Brett


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## tech/a (22 August 2008)

brettc4 said:


> I have done a couple of searches in the net for VSA and found very little information.  Are there any good internet resources for this, or is it primarily in books?
> 
> Thanks, Brett




http://www.tradeguider.com/


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## lesm (22 August 2008)

tech/a said:


> http://www.tradeguider.com/




You can also google:

'Richard D Wykoff' or 'Hank Pruden'


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## weird (22 August 2008)

I watched at least 3 of the free VSA/Tradeguider presentations (there are heaps more to watch if one has time), and I can understand the question if it only concerns stocks that are being manipulated by the big players (there is a video u must watch they keep telling u) ... I couldn't watch further videos ... you just hear Gavin saying the same thing ... most presentations go for more than an hour  ... I wish I had a "remove Gavin" switch, to hear what anyone else had to say in the presentation ... don't get me wrong, I found what Gavin had to say in the first video interesting, he just repeats everything again and again, in most videos I have watched, in case you haven't seen any other presentation. Some interesting comments made by other traders that are in some of the presentations.


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## tech/a (23 August 2008)

Yes I agree weird.
I'd like to lock Gavin in a room with 24 hrs of his videos.
Sebastian is worse.

Unfortunately the message is lost on some as they glaze over with the mono tones.
Its like some kind of test.
Get through that and you deserves to know!.

Perhaps its a VSA thing.
Motorway is pretty obtuse.


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## Timmy (23 August 2008)

brettc4 said:


> I have done a couple of searches in the net for VSA and found very little information.  Are there any good internet resources for this, or is it primarily in books?
> 
> Thanks, Brett




Brett,

I stuck "volume spread analysis" into Google and got loads of results.  I wont vouch for any of them but I know at least one that comes up on the front page is a very good resource.  A good starter is the "Master the Markets" book which is available as a free ebook (links around the place but let me know if you can't find one and I will look it up).


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## Timmy (23 August 2008)

tech/a said:


> Yes I agree weird.
> I'd like to lock Gavin in a room with 24 hrs of his videos.
> Sebastian is worse.
> 
> ...




Have to disagree with you on Motorway, his posts/discussions on Wyckoff are second to none (IMO).  I have learnt heaps from him, but each to his own.


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## tech/a (23 August 2008)

Not bagging Motorway.

I find his style of writing very similar to all of those who use visualisation techniques in their writing.--Obtuse.
Full of excellent info---just think it could be plainer.
Charts are good to.
While M/W is proficient in Point and Figure many arent---so while his explainations are perfectly clear for those who are exponents of P&F they are lost on those who arent.
A chart labelled in laymans terms can be followed by most (some I know cannot read a chart).

I just prefer plain English.
When posting charts of my own I try to use plain english to help explain what I see going on.
As you say each to their own.


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## Timmy (23 August 2008)

Thanks tech - maybe a knee-jerk reaction from me, but yes I value his info/insights very highly.


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## Pronto (29 August 2008)

Someone once said that only half of his huge advertising budget ever worked. The problem was that he never knew which half.

I suspect that trading methods, including VSA, are similar. They are valid in some circumstances, but not in others. The problem is in knowing when.

The difficulty comes when they are seen by their devotees as something aproaching infallibility all of the time (c.f. Dow, Gann, Elliott as well as the hundreds of individual indicators that are slavishly followed).

My principal objection to VSA as espoused by TradeGuider is the paranoia which apparently underpins its validity as a system. These are the claims of consistent and continuing manipulation of the market in the company's marketing efforts, which are reinforced by Gavin's screaming e-mails and in his presentations.

Market manipulation is a reality but I very much doubt that it is as all-pervasive as TradeGuider would have us believe.

The degree of manipulation on which TradeGuider seems to be premised may have had some validity in the days of Wyckoff or even for Tom Williams when he was younger, and to some extent it may still be the case today in the US. However, to my mind, the villain is less the Smart Money (whatever that means) than the actions of market makers. 

However, the ASX is order-driven (rather than quote-driven as the US exchanges are) and does not use market makers in its equities market. Also, the actions in the ASX of any Smart Money (however defined) does not mean that their influence is necessarily detectable by VSA in the major indices on a day by day basis.

I like to keep an eye on volume and I find that a ten period SMA and a 20 period Bollinger Band (the 2 standard deviations upper band) applied to volume (as Nick Radge suggests) is a useful guide as to when a particular day's trading can be associated with higher than average or exceptionally high volume. With some simple knowlege of VSA interpretation, I find that this can occasionally be helpful. This is more acceptable to me than paying c. $2000 for TradeGuider (or listening to Gavin again ) .


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## It's Snake Pliskin (29 August 2008)

Pronto said:


> Someone once said that only half of his huge advertising budget ever worked. The problem was that he never knew which half.
> 
> I suspect that trading methods, including VSA, are similar. They are valid in some circumstances, but not in others. The problem is in knowing when.
> 
> ...




Pronto,

An interesting post. 

Simple VSA knowledge and less noise analysis suits me.


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## tcoates (29 August 2008)

The concepts (stopping volume, weakness, etc.) of VSA can be programmed into other software like Metastock (?) and Amibroker so you don't necessarily have to pay anything. see

http://www.thechartist.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=80115#Post80115

Tim


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## tech/a (29 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> The concepts (stopping volume, weakness, etc.) of VSA can be programmed into other software like Metastock (?) and Amibroker so you don't necessarily have to pay anything. see
> 
> http://www.thechartist.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=80115#Post80115
> 
> Tim




Great job Tim.

True but application is everything.
You gain access to many webinars and people who are very conversant with VSA.
You will however lose a great deal on understanding without the software.
I picked up the cost of the software on the first couple of trades.


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## tcoates (29 August 2008)

Tech,

Agree with you to  point...

1. you don't have to have the software in order to understand VSA. But having the software would make it easier.

2. whether you have the software or not, you can still access VSA forums (tradeguider) and read the threads relate to VSA.

3. there is also the "master the markets" book.

You need to understand what the concepts mean before tackling the software - relying on software without understanding is a recipe for disaster. (The last point is more generally related to software, for stocks or otherwise... )

Tim


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## tech/a (29 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> Tech,
> 
> Agree with you to  point...
> 
> ...




I guess having the software both R/T and EOD for 2 yrs has made it easier for me to apply VSA to other software.Sure there are short comings in T/G and I as you know intend to use other software to enhance certain aspects not available in T/G.

I could build my home or buy a built one.
The first option will take longer and possibly wont have the finish of the last one (If of course I wasnt a builder).


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## white_goodman (29 August 2008)

i have the EOD version and only trade the ASX200 because there needs to be a fair amount of liquidity and movement in the price otherwise it doesnt really work... and similar to tech/a ive paid for the software within my first week of trading and i have very little capital at my disposal, of course i may have had some luck...


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## It's Snake Pliskin (30 August 2008)

tech/a said:


> Great job Tim.
> 
> True but application is everything.
> You gain access to many webinars and people who are very conversant with VSA.
> ...




Tech,

Do you find yourself focussing on more noise looking for signs?


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## tech/a (30 August 2008)

No.
They are there in all timeframes.
However crossing timeframes will kill you with noise.
Its got me a few times.


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## Timmy (30 August 2008)

white_goodman said:


> ... and similar to tech/a ive paid for the software within my first week of trading and i have very little capital at my disposal, of course i may have had some luck...




Sounds like you are making your own luck White, nicely done.


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## white_goodman (30 August 2008)

Timmy said:


> Sounds like you are making your own luck White, nicely done.




thanks but im running with a 70% success rate atm, ive been lucky in my first 2 weeks with cfd's, i know itll come down to around 50ish soon, so not counting any chickens before their hatched...

but yeh im really liking it atm, i got in on Macquarie yesterday, i think my analysis is good to go long, and i only focus on highly liquid stocks cos they give a fair indication of perceived 'smart money' with the volume information and activity is more reliable so to speak..

gapped down out of trading range on increased volume, then i think it found stopping volume, then theres some strong volume/effort to get back up in the trading range...

i probably shouldnt have got back in till it goes through the resistance(old support) but i thought it was worth a go and im only playing around with peanuts... might look to get out if the volume and weakness appears before breaking the resistance

heres the chart, hope my newbie analysis is ok or remotely logical..


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## MRC & Co (31 August 2008)

Yeh, definately would have waited white.  That is an entire resistance band up above and that high volume shows some sellers are still in the market.  Could well form a pattern (double bottom perhaps), with the second low forming on decreasing volume.  That would be a decent base to move on up from, but a bit too risky ATM with resistance so close and quite a large stop ($5?).  

Cheers


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## white_goodman (31 August 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Yeh, definately would have waited white.  That is an entire resistance band up above and that high volume shows some sellers are still in the market.  Could well form a pattern (double bottom perhaps), with the second low forming on decreasing volume.  That would be a decent base to move on up from, but a bit too risky ATM with resistance so close and quite a large stop ($5?).
> 
> Cheers




yeh ill get out if it starts to show a lack of effort approaching the old trading range...

i have my stop loss originally around $41.20, was indicated on the trend cluster thing in tradeguider, but yeh i move it up to reduce margin so its up from that now.. all part of the learning process


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## MRC & Co (31 August 2008)

Yeh, great start for you!  

Volume moves markets, price tells the story.  IMHO, by far the critical two things to learn and you learning them off the bat, a fantastic start! 

Yeh, on closer inspection, the stop is not overly large.  The thing is, if you move it up, any retest of that low will take you out, and odds are, that low will be retested but the volume shows it could well hold.


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## white_goodman (31 August 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Yeh, great start for you!
> 
> Volume moves markets, price tells the story.  IMHO, by far the critical two things to learn and you learning them off the bat, a fantastic start!
> 
> Yeh, on closer inspection, the stop is not overly large.  The thing is, if you move it up, any retest of that low will take you out, and odds are, that low will be retested but the volume shows it could well hold.




yeh i know but i try and move up my GSL to breakeven as soon as possible, but i see what your saying, ive been stopped out on tests recently..

maby just change my stop only when it becomes exactly the breakeven, so the trend is sorta confirmed.. ill keep an eye out tomorrow, i think it will give quite a fair indication of whether its gonna retest or breakthrough resistance, my uneducated guess reckons itll be an upbar on low volume which will let me get out, but only time will tell...


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## white_goodman (31 August 2008)

speaking of VSA theres a chart that im having difficulty reading atm, its the Stockland one with lower highs and higher lows forming a pincer...

i believe it will go down but you could sorta argue either way perhaps...
what would you more experienced VSA people read when you saw this chart?


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## MRC & Co (31 August 2008)

Larger trend looks down (haven't looked further back?), volume fading off as the triangle forms, looks more likely down.  I wouldn't take a long set-up like that personally.


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## Kauri (31 August 2008)

white_goodman said:


> speaking of VSA theres a chart that im having difficulty reading atm, its the Stockland one with lower highs and higher lows forming a pincer...
> 
> i believe it will go down but you could sorta argue either way perhaps...
> what would you more experienced VSA people read when you saw this chart?




 To rasky for me... but hey I is wrong more oft than i'm right..  so take dis chart with a pinch etc....

Cheers
..............Kauri


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## nomore4s (31 August 2008)

I think it could end up in a trading range for a while as it looks like it will need a lot of effort to go either up through $5.80 or down through $4.00. I have marked the chart with Wyckoff terms but the ideas are the same as VSA.

You can see where I have marked the chart with PS (Preliminary support) and SC (Selling climax) that huge volume (stopping volume) has come in and stopped the descent, we have then seen a very strong AR (Automatic rally) indicating the selling (supply) at those levels has run out of steam.

Some resistance is now appearing at the $5.40 - $5.80 area (around the PS area). Look at the last bar - high volume but a tight range and a weak close.

I would now like to see another test of the $4.00 area on reduced volume compared to the SC to confirm the lack of supply at those areas. But we also may not get that low again as there apeears to be some support at $4.40 - $4.60 area now (this indicates some strength in the stock).

This stock could well be building a base but it looks like it needs a bit more work yet - one to watch perhaps.
You could trade the swings perhaps but for me it doesn't really offer many opportunities atm.


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## MRC & Co (1 September 2008)

Yes, the stopping volume is the best sign here.  Could well be basing and the MQG chart you posted above may well trace out in a similar form of pattern.  

If the broader markets turn down though, that stopping volume will evaporate very quickly.  A low volume retest would be best to see here IMO, because there is not much buying demand ATM.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2008)

white_goodman said:


> my uneducated guess reckons itll be an upbar on low volume which will let me get out, but only time will tell...




yeh well lacked effort getting up to the line so i got out at 1.5 times my risk, ill have a look for a test on low volume over the week.. or a double bottom/ stopping volume at $40


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## MRC & Co (1 September 2008)

Well you would prefer the second bottom to form on lower volume.  Just as you would with a double top.  Sellers have been satisfied, now free to move up.  Just as with a double top, the first top on high volume shows distribution and the second push on low volume shows a lack of any bullish demand to keep it pushing on.  Path of least resistance is then in the opposite direction. 

Though, may just consolidate now, either way, has a lot to do to proove bullish IMO.  Not to say it won't.  US IBs results soon yeh?  Will probably have a big effect on MQG.  Not a good time to trade IMO.  Best to stay on the sidelines with this one.


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## tech/a (7 September 2008)

cas67 said:


> Hello everybody,
> This is my second post...and i ll like to tell you that VSA [ VPA ] has been coded in amibroker by Mr Karthik..and i found it is advance then TGuider SW ..chart with brief explanation of bar to bar has been nicely explained ...you can watch /check vpanalysis.blogspot ...and with it can be coded by senior members of this forum  because Mr Karthik has explained very nicely ..
> Thank you all




I have been had a look at Karath's thread and he has put in a lot of work.
However some of his understanding of VSA is flawed. While a lot is excellent and no doubt his effort is immense,Id be a little wary if you dont have a VSA grounding.

There is another excellent work on VSA by a competing Forum so I wont post the link here however if anyone would like the link just private mail me. You'll have to join their forum to get access---no its not Radges site.


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## white_goodman (8 September 2008)

geez macquarie was kind to me, long up to the resistance, then shorted then long again for todays nice 15% rise...

unfortuneatly my charts arent working atm but i think weve got over resistance and a potential up move may take place... heres hoping


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## tech/a (24 September 2008)

tech/a said:


> I have been had a look at Karath's thread and he has put in a lot of work.
> However some of his understanding of VSA is flawed. While a lot is excellent and no doubt his effort is immense,Id be a little wary if you dont have a VSA grounding.
> 
> There is another excellent work on VSA by a competing Forum so I wont post the link here however if anyone would like the link just private mail me. You'll have to join their forum to get access---no its not Radges site.




Need a bit of help.
Computer had a headache and Ive lost this link---actually both of them.
I sent them to some of you--can you private mail me with them please---ta muchly.


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## tech/a (24 September 2008)

Thanks team.


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## JackJackJack (24 September 2008)

Is it possible to get more than one technical indicator window up in tradeguider?
If I have a MACD up and then select RSI - it overlays the RSI over the MACD


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## Wysiwyg (16 August 2009)

cas67 said:


> Hello everybody,
> This is my second post...and i ll like to tell you that VSA [ VPA ] has been coded in amibroker by Mr Karthik..and i found it is advance then TGuider SW ..chart with brief explanation of bar to bar has been nicely explained ...you can watch /check vpanalysis.blogspot ...and with it can be coded by senior members of this forum  because Mr Karthik has explained very nicely ..
> Thank you all




Yeah I found that site. His thoughts on VSA are below in the PDF for anyone interested.  



> I know most of you are eager to get straight into the core of VSA. But let us lay some foundations before building the blocks of VSA. First thing is of course to understand a little more about working of Smart Money (hereafter we will just use the term SM to indicate Smart money).
> The SM basically moves the market in four phases as follows
> 1. Accumulation
> 2. Markup
> ...


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## tech/a (16 August 2009)

> Thus we came up with our own interpretation of the “Volume spread analysis”.
> Please do not start comparing my description with the ones that may be available from the net. I have used some basic stuff from Tom Williams’s book and have built on it. Here we are not trying to clone the Trader Guider system.




Trade this version at your own peril.



> One thing is certain that the availability of basic information on VSA is scarce.




Yeh if you dont want to pay for it like everyone else



> Our intention in this thread will be to explore the basics so that each one of us can arrive at our own *convenient VSA *analysis.




A free one which fits for us.



> First thing is of course to understand a little more about working of Smart Money (hereafter we will just use the term SM to indicate Smart money).
> The SM basically moves the market in four phases as follows
> 1. Accumulation
> 2. Markup
> ...




Basic Weinstein. This is simply the moving of any market.



> In reality it could be more complex and many a time difficult to decipher.




Often the case when you dont understand something.

Ive read this guys paper.
It really reads as a novice attempting to reverse engineer VSA.
He makes many assumptions that are way off the mark.



> Much care is taken not to make it visible. Volume is never too high. Prices are support at certain levels so that there is no panic.




Eg Contradiction 



> High volume Upthrust are a sure indication of weakness, higher the Volume the stronger the indication. It may be even wise to get out of the stock if the Upthrust has ultra high volume.






> Pseudo upthrusts




Love this one. Doesnt have volume so cant possibly be an upthrust so lets invent something. What rot!

Has little understanding of a No demand bar as do most who have "self taught"

As you can see its a pretty poor example of "No Demand"
Price goes vertical in a less than a week.

CLICK TO EXPAND




And so it goes on.
This VSA has a 
"Made In India" label the quality is a poor copy.


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## Wysiwyg (16 August 2009)

Something to ponder if TradeGuider software gives anyone the gotta have it now urge.



Pronto said:


> Someone once said that only half of his huge advertising budget ever worked. The problem was that he never knew which half.
> 
> I suspect that trading methods, including VSA, are similar. They are valid in some circumstances, but not in others. The problem is in knowing when.
> 
> ...


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## tech/a (16 August 2009)

> Originally Posted by Pronto
> Someone once said that only half of his huge advertising budget ever worked. The problem was that he never knew which half.
> 
> I suspect that trading methods, including VSA, are similar. They are valid in some circumstances, but not in others. The problem is in knowing when.




In fact any form of analysis.
Experience in application suppies the answer and result.



> The difficulty comes when they are seen by their devotees as something aproaching infallibility all of the time (c.f. Dow, Gann, Elliott as well as the hundreds of individual indicators that are slavishly followed).




The real difficulty comes to those who dont understand the analysis (Any analysis) and its application that THEY cant understand how to trade in anticipation of a move in a profitable way.



> My principal objection to VSA as espoused by TradeGuider is the paranoia which apparently underpins its validity as a system. These are the claims of consistent and continuing manipulation of the market in the company's marketing efforts, which are reinforced by Gavin's screaming e-mails and in his presentations.




If you understood VSA you'd realise its not a system.You'd also realise that the market is indeed moved by the big players and all the time. Learn how to read what they do and their cause and effect on an instrument and how to apply it to trading and you'll have an edge.

Ive met Gavin had a beer and a few laughs. A truely passionate guy. I certainly agree his presentations leave Aussies for dead,he may have a great product but he has a lousey way of selling it.



> Market manipulation is a reality but I very much doubt that it is as all-pervasive as TradeGuider would have us believe.




Yeh it is.



> The degree of manipulation on which TradeGuider seems to be premised may have had some validity in the days of Wyckoff or even for Tom Williams when he was younger, and to some extent it may still be the case today in the US. However, to my mind, the villain is less the Smart Money (whatever that means) than the actions of market makers.




Who cares as long as I can read it. 



> With some simple knowlege of VSA interpretation, I find that this can occasionally be helpful.




With sound knowledge I find it ALWAYS profitable.



> This is more acceptable to me than paying c. $2000 for TradeGuider (or listening to Gavin again ) .




You may. I paid the $2k and made that on my first trade.
Yeh I must admit that Ive tuned out (Fast forwarded) many of Gavins Intro's just to get past the blurb.

I find it interesting that people are so keen to side step the genuine article and settle for far inferior self taught product for the sake of a few bucks.
If $2k or $20K is too much then your NOT a serious player.
Its like these guys who want free everything.
Its worth as much as they pay for it.

But hey I'm a happy customer.


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