# ASF and Financial Advice



## Joe Blow

Given that there has been a lot of newcomers arriving at ASF over the last couple of months, I thought that now was an appropriate time to remind everyone that none of the content posted on this website should be considered financial advice. If anyone here is seeking financial advice specific to their own circumstances then they should consult a licensed financial adviser.

What you will find here is people sharing their opinions, their knowledge, their experience, and their own trading and investing strategies, philosophies and methodologies. However, none of that should be mistaken for licensed financial advice.

You are not permitted to ask for financial advice specific to your own circumstances here at ASF and nobody here is permitted to provide it to you. ASF operates in accordance with ASIC's Regulatory Guide 162 on Internet Discussion Sites.

If anyone makes financial decisions based on any of the information found here at ASF then they do so entirely at their own risk. Always do your own due diligence before making any investment decision that puts your own capital at risk. If you are in doubt, then please consult a licensed financial adviser.

ASIC maintains the MoneySmart website and there is a great deal of useful information there about obtaining licensed financial advice. Anyone unsure about how to invest their own money should start there.


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## Joe Blow

Below is a very informative link on the ASIC website that I just noticed in another thread. This is ASIC's Information Sheet (INFO 269) titled _Discussing financial products and services online_.

I recommend that everyone take a look through it as it provides specific examples of posted content that ASIC is likely to regard as either misleading or deceptive or providing financial product advice. As such it is very useful as a guide.






						Discussing financial products and services online  | ASIC
					






					asic.gov.au


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## Belli

Just be aware that ASIC has not defined exactly the term "influencer."  It is in general very, very broad even to the extent some random person (who do not even have to be a member of this forum) reading a post and being influenced by it.  A don't bother expecting ASIC to define it.  If asked it will say it doesn't provide legal advice and you need to seek a professional opinion.

My gut feeling is it would prefer there was no discussion about share investing on line.


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## KevinBB

Interesting follow up to this in an article in today's Financial Review.

Quote from article (my bold text):
_Several TikTok, Instagram and YouTube finfluencers said they would close their accounts after a closed-door briefing by ASIC, revealed by The Australian Financial Review in April, went further, arguing that *they could not even discuss their own investment portfolios online without a licence*._

Link to Financial Review article

KH


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## divs4ever

God forbid  the plebs talk more sense  than paid-up ( registered ) professionals


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## Belli

KevinBB said:


> Interesting follow up to this in an article in today's Financial Review.
> 
> Quote from article (my bold text):
> _Several TikTok, Instagram and YouTube finfluencers said they would close their accounts after a closed-door briefing by ASIC, revealed by The Australian Financial Review in April, went further, arguing that *they could not even discuss their own investment portfolios online without a licence*._
> 
> Link to Financial Review article
> 
> KH



 I know of one blogger, very small and only a handful of followers, who deleted the entire blog as it was way too much effort to go back and amend around 50 articles in order to comply with ASIC statements.  Yes, it was implied by ASIC, historical information was also covered by INFO 269 in post #2 above.

Good fun, eh?


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## Garpal Gumnut

Belli said:


> Just be aware that ASIC has not defined exactly the term "influencer."  It is in general very, very broad even to the extent some random person (who do not even have to be a member of this forum) reading a post and being influenced by it.  A don't bother expecting ASIC to define it.  If asked it will say it doesn't provide legal advice and you need to seek a professional opinion.
> 
> My gut feeling is it would prefer there was no discussion about share investing on line.





KevinBB said:


> Interesting follow up to this in an article in today's Financial Review.
> 
> Quote from article (my bold text):
> _Several TikTok, Instagram and YouTube finfluencers said they would close their accounts after a closed-door briefing by ASIC, revealed by The Australian Financial Review in April, went further, arguing that *they could not even discuss their own investment portfolios online without a licence*._
> 
> Link to Financial Review article
> 
> KH






divs4ever said:


> God forbid  the plebs talk more sense  than paid-up ( registered ) professionals






Belli said:


> I know of one blogger, very small and only a handful of followers, who deleted the entire blog as it was way too much effort to go back and amend around 50 articles in order to comply with ASIC statements.  Yes, it was implied by ASIC, historical information was also covered by INFO 269 in post #2 above.
> 
> Good fun, eh?



The Risk, Audit and Governance Committee finally met at the hotel this afternoon. A quorum was formed at 4pm when the bus from Townsville Correctional Centre (TCC) or "The Creek" finally deposited two of our leading ASIC experts at the door. They had been delayed by multiple crashes of intoxicated mums in SUV's picking their children up from their first day back at school. 

They got straight to work with three double rum and cokes and have delivered their draft conclusions on the kerfuffle between ASIC and Influencers posting financial inanities on the internets. The draft report, heavily redacted is as follows. 


ASIC are a ....... ... .. .......s
Influencers are ......s
The public need to be protected from Influencers.
For a definition of Influencer refer to 2.
For a decision on the usefulness of ASIC in protecting investors refer to 1. 
I did point out to the committee that this was brief and needed expansion. 

They replied to refer to 1. and 2. 

gg


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## Belli

Haha.  Yes.  However, is ASIC going to come after a nobody such as me?  Unlikely but still possible because ASIC hasn't ruled it out.  And that is one aspect of its INFO 269 which many overlook.


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## Garpal Gumnut

Belli said:


> Haha.  Yes.  However, is ASIC going to come after a nobody such as me?  Unlikely but still possible because ASIC hasn't ruled it out.  And that is one aspect of its INFO 269 which many overlook.



They only come after people who suffix their brainfarts with DYOR. ( Just joking )

gg


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## divs4ever

anything to get the retail investor to think for themselves  

 by the way  how are the Hayne Royal Commission findings going  ,  implemented yet ?


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## Garpal Gumnut

If the regulatory authorities cannot nail the Banks and Crown after Royal Commissions I doubt very much whether anyone on ASF is at great risk. 

Fellow posters usually alert @Joe Blow and @Sean K to inadvertent seeking or giving of advice in the rare case where they do not pick it up beforehand. 

Scammers and criminals likewise posting are usually extinguished fairly quickly. 

Honest opinion on stocks and finance is part of social intercourse. 

gg


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## Smurf1976

divs4ever said:


> by the way how are the Hayne Royal Commission findings going , implemented yet ?




I'll simply state my view that the whole thing is akin to police going after a group of 17 year olds drinking moderate amounts of alcohol on the evening of 31 December meanwhile completely ignoring the multiple murder going on just down the road or the dozen building fires which have mysteriously occurred around town in the past few hours. 

There are far bigger problems they ought be focusing on.


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## frugal.rock

One could argue that nipping crime in the bud pays dividends down the track.
 (Not financial advice...)

For example, the 17 year olds getting their piss confiscated, may not go on to commit multiple murders and numerous arson attacks for unscrupulous development.

Besides, this way the "coppers" get free piss.
 Win, win. ?
 (Past performance is not indicative of future performance and should not be relied apon when making investment decisions.)
🧐
😹


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## Dona Ferentes

It seems, reading #2 post link INFO 269, that influencers receive money for their efforts, via the tiktok or insta click reward reimbursement, and that is ASIC's concern and focus. Idle posters on ASF get no recompense and would not be as great a target.


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## Captain_Chaza

Has the ASIC ever prosecuted  an "INFLUENCER "and won in any court in Australia?
I don't know of anyone! Do You?
But
I do know that our History books are full of "LICENCED ADVISORS"  sitting in Jails


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## kenny

How does the likes of HC get around this given they are a commercial enterprise?


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## divs4ever

kenny said:


> How does the likes of HC get around this given they are a commercial enterprise?



 AND ASX listed  , last i heard 

 i would like to note  the last week ( plus today ) that the market turnover  ( $$$ and shares traded )  is much lower  than recent  months/years  ( reminiscent  of the Xmas holiday break )

 has this war on influencers killed the market  ???


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## basilio

Dona Ferentes said:


> It seems, reading #2 post link INFO 269, that influencers receive money for their efforts, via the tiktok or insta click reward reimbursement, and that is ASIC's concern and focus. Idle posters on ASF get no recompense and would not be as great a target.




Spot on.  There is also the fact that much Crypto spruiking has been driven by influencers. And Crypto  is basically driven by mass interest rather than any tangible economic outcome.


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## Belli

Dona Ferentes said:


> It seems, reading #2 post link INFO 269, that influencers receive money for their efforts, via the tiktok or insta click reward reimbursement, and that is ASIC's concern and focus. Idle posters on ASF get no recompense and would not be as great a target.




It's been worded in a cunning way to cover all bases:

"If you’re an influencer who receives benefits or payment for your comments in relation to financial products, you're *more likely *to be providing financial product advice because it indicates an intention to influence the audience."

So even if you are not receiving benefits you can still be viewed by ASIC as an "influencer" - which, as I have said previously, hasn't been defined exactly.

By the way, I'm not overly concerned about it.  I'm more intrigued by the apparently sledgehammer approach to financial commentary on-line in forums and other social media.


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## Belli

I've noticed a few post have been modified or deleted recently with a reference to ASIC.  Putting aside specific reasons for those modifications, I really do think it is sad someone will ask a question on a forum and all they are looking for is a simple method of investing their funds.  Not looking for complications or anything else and maybe a simple DCA approach into specific investment vehicles may suffice.

And what happens technically.  Sorry, bro, you need to pay $3k or more to seek professional advice on these matters.  But I don't have $3k as that would eat up all I have to invest. Tough, my friend, you're on your own I'm afraid.


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## monkton

Belli said:


> I've noticed a few post have been modified or deleted recently with a reference to ASIC.  Putting aside specific reasons for those modifications, I really do think it is sad someone will ask a question on a forum and all they are looking for is a simple method of investing their funds.  Not looking for complications or anything else and maybe a simple DCA approach into specific investment vehicles may suffice.
> 
> And what happens technically.  Sorry, bro, you need to pay $3k or more to seek professional advice on these matters.  But I don't have $3k as that would eat up all I have to invest. Tough, my friend, you're on your own I'm afraid.



Exactly so, this 'simple method of investing' with no complications I discovered on forums a few years ago is what is giving me a relatively good income in retirement with very,very low fees, yet none of which was ever given as advice by fin. advisors or brokers.
As you said in a previous post 'a real sledgehammer approach'.
While I enjoy reading different posts on this forum I rarely post as not much to contribute as dividends come in, records kept, money is allocated for living expenses & what is left over is re-invested in same.


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## eskys

Don't be sad, Belli. You're not alone, we're with you; we'll continue to post and support one another. The rules are in place to protect innocent victims from being tricked. We know one another here and we know that everyone is doing their best to help...just need to pay more attention to how we phrase our sentences. Good luck and see you about.......


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## Belli

eskys said:


> Don't be sad, Belli




No worries as I just realised it's only four sleeps until payday.


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## monkton

eskys said:


> The rules are in place to protect innocent victims from being tricked.



Problem is, advice given by some legal advisors, while all above board, is not always that great, at least that has been my experience.


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## Garpal Gumnut

Belli said:


> I've noticed a few post have been modified or deleted recently with a reference to ASIC.  Putting aside specific reasons for those modifications, I really do think it is sad someone will ask a question on a forum and all they are looking for is a simple method of investing their funds.  Not looking for complications or anything else and maybe a simple DCA approach into specific investment vehicles may suffice.
> 
> And what happens technically.  Sorry, bro, you need to pay $3k or more to seek professional advice on these matters.  But I don't have $3k as that would eat up all I have to invest. Tough, my friend, you're on your own I'm afraid.





eskys said:


> Don't be sad, Belli. You're not alone, we're with you; we'll continue to post and support one another. The rules are in place to protect innocent victims from being tricked. We know one another here and we know that everyone is doing their best to help...just need to pay more attention to how we phrase our sentences. Good luck and see you about.......



Just from reading some of the posts on this thread I feel some members may be missing out on a valuable tool for self education and assistance with making investment decisions via ASF. 

Unlike other forums ASF has numerous old threads which can be accessed via the search engine in the top right hand corner. These contain as much advice as one needs for investing. 

Nobody is going to tell anyone what to do. Even a financial adviser will not do that. They will "recommend" and cover their a**es by saying that the future is unknown. 

I would not worry too much about being collared by ASIC on ASF as long as you follow @Joe Blow 's advice re not giving advice. 

It is as much a legal matter as an investing one. 

To give an example I typed in "advice" in to the search and ticked "titles only" and came back with this :



			https://www.aussiestockforums.com/search/232831/?q=advice&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance
		


Just five posts down on my search was a thread from Joe on the perils of posting advice. 

So the message is, if you want to stay safe and prosperous in the markets, use the Search function. There are many old posts that are pure gold, and often better than the newer ones. Even better than this post.

gg


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## divs4ever

monkton said:


> Problem is, advice given by some legal advisors, while all above board, is not always that great, at least that has been my experience.



  an egg and chicken problem ( assuming your financial adviser is working in YOUR best interest  )

 the adviser  needs to know you fairly intimately  ,( in a financial and psychological sense ) AND the client also needs to be fairly well fiscally educated  .. the client has to have a good idea of the outcome they desire .

and hopefully these forums are helping in their own way  to get the retail folk better educated ( financially ) so they can discuss  concerns with their FA


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## eskys

Belli said:


> No worries as I just realised it's only four sleeps until payday.



Excellent, Belli, treat yourself a lunch or dinner..........goodnight


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## eskys

monkton said:


> Problem is, advice given by some legal advisors, while all above board, is not always that great, at least that has been my experience.



Same with every profession, the good and not so good.....got to shop around. Don't buy the cheapest;  if they're cheap, ask yourself why.........cheap for a reason???


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## eskys

Goodnight, everyone, I'm logging out............


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## Belli

Some maybe missing my actual point.  The ASIC manifesto covers financial products, which by the way includes bank accounts, superannuation, insurance.

@monkton was close it when posting


monkton said:


> As you said in a previous post 'a real sledgehammer approach'.




My annoyance is ASIC has, in my view, deliberately left the whole thing hanging by not providing a clear definition of "influencer" or clarifying whether general discussion on shares and the merits of one v another is OK.  It is as vague as muck.



eskys said:


> treat yourslef to a lunch or dinner.




Had a delightful light lunch with a charming companion.  Dinner is being cooked as I type.


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## divs4ever

Belli said:


> My annoyance is ASIC has, in my view, deliberately left the whole thing hanging by not providing a clear definition of "influencer" or clarifying whether general discussion on shares and the merits of one v another is OK. It is as vague as muck.





  i agree , vague definitions aren't my favorite  either,

 for interest  does  an 'influencer  '  need to declare a vested interest ( whether being paid  for clicks or  a position or a trade  in a stock/bonds/ETF )


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## Smurf1976

Belli said:


> My annoyance is ASIC has, in my view, deliberately left the whole thing hanging by not providing a clear definition of "influencer" or clarifying whether general discussion on shares and the merits of one v another is OK. It is as vague as muck.



It's the equivalent of saying you'll suffer a huge penalty for speeding on a public road but there's no posted speed limit or definition of speeding.

I'll say anything over 100 is too fast on this road but that doesn't mean the Officer who's pulled me over won't have deemed a suitable speed to be 50. Both are then on shaky ground if the other chooses to challenge it in court.

For any law to be workable, there needs to be some formal definition of what's acceptable at least in generic terms.


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## monkton

eskys said:


> Same with every profession, the good and not so good.....got to shop around. Don't buy the cheapest;  if they're cheap, ask yourself why.........cheap for a reason???



Haha, yep true. Reckon I've had a mix. You've got me recalling one mob, many years ago, occupying a few floors of expensive inner city realestate saying I could retire now (I had the bare minimum they required) but I wasn't ready to do so & was thinking b/s about their proposal. As I learnt more I realised I'd dodged a bullit there. Funnily enough the best advice I got was also the cheapest, it cost nothing except my time & learning about passive style investing from forums & great vehicles for doing this.
Under the new asic rulings, this would likely now, not be possible.


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## Belli

Smurf1976 said:


> It's the equivalent of saying you'll suffer a huge penalty for speeding on a public road but there's no posted speed limit or definition of speeding.
> 
> I'll say anything over 100 is too fast on this road but that doesn't mean the Officer who's pulled me over won't have deemed a suitable speed to be 50. Both are then on shaky ground if the other chooses to challenge it in court.
> 
> For any law to be workable, there needs to be some formal definition of what's acceptable at least in generic terms.




Yes.  You will gather I find it irksome to say the least the provisions of the Corporations Act (section 766B) could be used to stiffle conversations between individuals who are not members of a corporation and who have no intention to mislead, troll, influence or receive monetary compensation by posting their views.  If those views are incorrect (in full or in part) others will surely amend them appropriately which would be good as the OP will also learn.

Dinner was really nice and yummy just in case anyone was wondering (doubtful. )


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## Smurf1976

Belli said:


> I find it irksome to say the least the provisions of the Corporations Act (section 766B) could be used to stiffle conversations between individuals who are not members of a corporation and who have no intention to mislead, troll, influence or receive monetary compensation by posting their views.



Suffice to say I totally agree but I don't want to turn the thread, which was started by the owner of this forum, into an ideological rant which I don't think was the intent.

Suffice to say there's an abundance of for-profit financial misinformation around that's being ignored and this forum isn't the problem.


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## monkton

Smurf1976 said:


> Suffice to say I totally agree but I don't want to turn the thread, which was started by the owner of this forum, into an ideological rant which I don't think was the intent.
> 
> Suffice to say there's an abundance of for-profit financial misinformation around that's being ignored and this forum isn't the problem.



I hear you about the 'rant', but I will just add that it's only Australian forums, influencers etc, being targeted. We are still free to be informed/mislead from o/s forums & influencers, no problem .


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## kenny

I wonder how does so called "robo advice" fit into all this? There might be an opening for an AI financial commentary bot for the various social channels.


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## Belli

kenny said:


> I wonder how does so called "robo advice" fit into all this?





ASIC has got your back. 







						Digital advice providers  | ASIC
					






					asic.gov.au


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## Dona Ferentes

Belli said:


> ASIC has got your back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Digital advice providers  | ASIC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asic.gov.au



It's the same old 'competency' and ownership story, then.

Resourcing and competency obligations​_Digital advice licensees should have at least one responsible manager who meets the training and competence standards for advisers (i.e. _*natural persons*_ who provide financial product advice to clients)._

Depending on the nature, scale and complexity of your digital advice business, you may wish to outsource certain functions. If you choose to outsource functions relating to digital advice algorithms and the review of advice generated by algorithms, we expect you to have people within your business who understand these functions and to monitor this arrangement.


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## frugal.rock

Belli said:


> Dinner was really nice and yummy just in case anyone was wondering (doubtful. )



Well, obviously, if I'm not invited, I'm generally not going to be interested in your dinner.
However, on this occasion, and, as you have pointed it was a yummy one, pray tell, what was it and how was it prepared?
I think 500 words would suffice... 🤪🧐


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## Belli

frugal.rock said:


> Well, obviously, if I'm not invited, I'm generally not going to be interested in your dinner.
> However, on this occasion, and, as you have pointed it was a yummy one, pray tell, what was it and how was it prepared?
> I think 500 words would suffice... 🤪🧐




Sorry I am not a qualified chef.  Should I provide any opinions or discussion on cooking, plating or matters associated with gastronomic delights, I'd likely have the Australian Culinary Federation on my case.  It's the legalities you understand.


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## frugal.rock

Belli said:


> Sorry I am not a qualified chef.






Belli said:


> It's the legalities you understand.



I guess, just like the legalities, what is influence?
When someone can't say what they had for dinner?
Sheesh, it's  a bad situation!




PS; I had fish fingers, mash and broccoli. Fish fingers have always been a mystery to me, as I've never seen a fish with hands, let alone arms.... however, some fish have fans, which means there's gotta be some fingers somewhere right?


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## Belli

Still they cannot make up their bloody minds despite the reforms being introduced two decades ago.






						Quality of Advice Review | Treasury.gov.au
					

The Government is committed to ensuring that Australians have access to high quality, affordable and accessible financial advice. Consistent with recommendations 2.3, 2.5 and 2.6 of the Royal Commission into Misconduct in the Banking, Superannuation and Financial Services Industry (Royal...




					treasury.gov.au
				




However, I should be generous and recognise there needs to be reviews and it should not be a matter of an "It's always been done this way" approach.


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## Garpal Gumnut

ASIC are a mob of underfunded muppets. 

Educate yourselves and don’t trust anyone except Joe Aston in the AFR who has exposed more crooks, lazy advisers, incompetent money managers, and banks than anyone else I know. 

gg


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## Dona Ferentes

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Educate yourselves and don’t trust anyone except Joe Aston in the AFR who has exposed more crooks, lazy advisers, incompetent money managers, and banks than anyone else I know.
> 
> gg



Trevor Sykes .... _Pip, pip, Pierpont_!


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## Smurf1976

Just an observation but some of the “advice” I’ve seen in the mainstream media over the past ~2 years has been so wrong it’s not funny.

Anyone who took that as fact could well be in huge trouble going forward.

If ASIC wants anything to crack down on then forums like this aren’t it.


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## wayneL

Smurf1976 said:


> Just an observation but some of the “advice” I’ve seen in the mainstream media over the past ~2 years has been so wrong it’s not funny.
> 
> Anyone who took that as fact could well be in huge trouble going forward.
> 
> If ASIC wants anything to crack down on then forums like this aren’t it.



Just fade the MSM and get rich 👍


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## Smurf1976

wayneL said:


> Just fade the MSM and get rich



Or use it as a contrary indicator.


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## over9k

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ASIC are a mob of underfunded muppets.





Smurf1976 said:


> If ASIC wants anything to crack down on then forums like this aren’t it.



Very easy to make yourself appear useful if you go for the easy targets/low hanging fruit. 

"Just look at all the convictions we've made!".


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