# SPA3 - Can it be that easy?



## pennywise75 (6 July 2008)

Hey there

I work full time, have 2 small kids and a wife. (guess which one takes up most of my time)

so trading to me is a bit of a conundrum, I know I can make trading work for me which will save me time, but i dont have the time to set up my trading strategy.

So, do a "sharefinder" type of system work? If not SPA3 could anyone sugguest a good one.

Thanks for your time


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## Look Left (7 July 2008)

Hi PennyWise75,
You might want to read the following thread in its entirety. It should give you some more information: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7609&highlight=spa3
(The forum admin may even move your post??)

There isn't many ShareFinder SPA3 type systems out there. *****************  Does anyone else? There is some good education available but education alone will never make you a profitable trader. It's very valuable but just part of the puzzle.

Is it that easy? No, a trading strategy by itself will not make you successful.
Is SPA3 easy? ****************

IMHO, SPA3 will give you a great start in trading. From there you can expand your knowledge as your kids permit. 

Cheers!


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

Hmmmm..... This tastes a little like


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## Timmy (7 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Hmmmm..... This tastes a little like




Not so much any more.

Claims made about these types of products need to be either verified or verifiable.
Potential purchasers of the product, please see the thread Look Left refers too for more discussion, but also do your own research.


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## pennywise75 (7 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Hmmmm..... This tastes a little like




Mate honestly this isnt a spam, reading back through my post i can see how someone would think that

I have been trading CFDs for around 6 months, I havent done aswell as i would like, broke even. Like i was saying I dont have alot of time on my hands, so a program that helps "pick" my trades would be helpful.

Its just a lot to pay out for a program, so I wanted to hear from people who have used it. 

Is there any other type of system out there for us time poor ppl?

I did read the other thread and must thank you for pointing it out to me, 
one question from it, does SPA do a CFD program now? .. hope that doesnt sound "spamish"

Thanks for your help


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

Timmy said:


> Not so much any more.
> 
> Claims made about these types of products need to be either verified or verifiable.
> Potential purchasers of the product, please see the thread Look Left refers too for more discussion, but also do your own research.




Does that now mean that System sprukers have to prove their return claims with REAL accounts or real time calls.

If not I reckon that may be a good policy to adopt. That is any claim of a system that is being sold to the public MUST show it works or its pulled.
Come on how about it?


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> Is there any other type of system out there for us time poor ppl?




Not one that works.


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## Look Left (7 July 2008)

TremblingHandTrader,
I agree that some form of general verification should be provided when mentioning products. But I also think that statements like "Not one that works" should be equally validated or pulled. It is an armchair comment with no proof or sign of research . In general it doesn't help PennyWise at all. How about being constructive?

PennyWise,
Timmy is correct, you should investigate any claims anyone makes through your own research. I understand this forum thread is part of it. If you want some 100% independent proof that the system works try this:

* ShareFinder runs public portfolios for most of it's products. The SPA3 portfolio has been running since 2001!!! The 06/07 period was audited by Deloitte for accuracy. See: http://www.sharefinder.com.au/deloitte.php

* Also, have you done a general internet search on ShareFinder? I do this for any product that comes along and most of the time you can find out that the directors are linked to a previous dodgy product or customers have had serious complaints. The strange things is, I can't find any bad press for ShareFinder, it's pretty much all good. Gary Stone and ShareFinder have been around for a long time and IMHO proved themselves, equally as much as Nick Radge has for education.

Re CFDs, The website says they have released SPA3CFD. Same thing applies, check it out yourself.

Good Luck!


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## IFocus (7 July 2008)

Cannot comment on SPA but Gary Stone dose have some credibility


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> TremblingHandTrader,
> I agree that some form of general verification should be provided when mentioning products. But I also think that statements like "Not one that works" should be equally validated or pulled. It is an armchair comment with no proof or sign of research . In general it doesn't help PennyWise at all. How about being constructive?




Actually I know 2 people that forked out for Sharefinder and lost out.



Look Left said:


> * ShareFinder runs public portfolios for most of it's products. The SPA3 portfolio has been running since 2001!!! The 06/07 period was audited by Deloitte for accuracy. See: http://www.sharefinder.com.au/deloitte.php




These bogus audits just make me more confident that the systems are not worth it. They are not real trades taken from REAL people who use these systems. Its a trick that they do to make a dubious business look creditable.

This is how you do it. You pay a big accounting firm to check that your system signals did occur in a selected amount of picks. What you especially pay them for is to not mention that these signals do not represented ALL signals from the system and that it also would be impossible to take all signals. What they do not do and would shut people like me down is "audit" real people that HAVE traded it, broker statements. That audit is nothing more than a back fit.

As far as my credibility goes to question such systems I make $$ every day have for years out of what this claims to do. If you would like me to prove my claims PM me and I will forward you broker statements of 1000s of trades. Of course you will be able to do the same??


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

look left can you speculate , as you have no connection with SF, as to why they don't just show broker statements? surely if the system works SOMEONE at the company will be trading it and therefore could easily show statements.

That would shut me in an instant.


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## Garpal Gumnut (7 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Hmmmm..... This tastes a little like




I got my dog garpaldog to sniff this thread about 10 minutes ago and he's still running around in circles.

Bugger off.

gg


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## Look Left (7 July 2008)

Trembling hand,
Sorry if you thought I was trying to question your credibility. I've read quite a few of your own blogs and they are generally well constructed. Your previous quip was not of that calibre. I was actually questioning the balance between pulling positive comments and negative comments about a product. For instance...


> Actually I know 2 people that forked out for Sharefinder and lost out.



Why is this allowed with no evidence but when I said the opposite, Timmy pulled it. The forum should be a forum, with balanced and supported statements. Wouldn't you agree? Timmy, your view?

I am a bit perplexed over one of your comments regarding the audit.


> What you especially pay them for is to not mention that these signals do not represented ALL signals from the system and that it also would be impossible to take all signals.



 I do agree that it is only a subset of the signals. This fact is clearly mentioned and explained in the other thread. I'm sure your own trading methods don't  have you taking every trade available. Further, if a subset of trades is not enough then broker statements, which are the same thing, are no better in your eyes. 

I know Gary Stone trades the system along with a few other staff members. I'll ask about making the broker records public. But it would only make sense if he could prove the trades were done with SPA3 signals. Which would mean getting it audited and now we're back to the same issue. So how much proof would you need? (Honest question). How did you prove your method to yourself?


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## professor_frink (7 July 2008)

> Why is this allowed with no evidence but when I said the opposite, Timmy pulled it. The forum should be a forum, with balanced and supported statements. Wouldn't you agree? Timmy, your view?




Sorry Timmy isn't online right now so I'll speak on his behalf, and if I'm speaking out of turn, he can delete my post later on when he's online and respond to you personally.

SPAM is a massive problem for the site. We have had people associated with companies sign up to praise products/services before, and on other occasions we have people that make negative comments about a product they've purchased only to find we are threatened with legal action shortly after when the people responsible find out that they aren't receiving a favourable review of their product. So you'll have to excuse us folk that try and keep the site running for having a slightly negative opinion of pretty well every "service" that is offered in this industry. The only time we see any of them is when they are trying to scam free advertising, or a trying to force the site into pulling anything that resembles an opinion on them that doesn't involve our member's engaging in a round of
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sorry if this post also seems to be lacking in the balance, or tact department, but it's not like the trading industry has really shown itself to be very balanced in the way it tries to exploit sites like this.


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## Garpal Gumnut (7 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> Trembling hand,
> Sorry if you thought I was trying to question your credibility. I've read quite a few of your own blogs and they are generally well constructed. Your previous quip was not of that calibre. I was actually questioning the balance between pulling positive comments and negative comments about a product. For instance...
> Why is this allowed with no evidence but when I said the opposite, Timmy pulled it. The forum should be a forum, with balanced and supported statements. Wouldn't you agree? Timmy, your view?
> 
> ...




Mate , my dog garpaldog has bitten David Bowden and has a certificate to prove it. I wouldn't let garpaldog trade for me however, or David Bowden or sfa anyone else.

gg


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## Timmy (7 July 2008)

Thanks Prof - nothing really to add except to say I want to steer well clear of Garpal's dog.


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## pennywise75 (7 July 2008)

Guys all I wanted was to hear ppls experence with using this software, sorry for opening a can of worms.

Just on the sharefinder web site, the audit link you sent me. I am a little  does the balance at the end say -97K ??? 

And just one more question to everyone who has replied, If someone cant give an honest answer to a question, due to fears from legal action. What is the point in having a forum?


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## Look Left (7 July 2008)

PennyWise,
You had me worried for a moment but all is ok. The -$97k figure shows you how much is currently invested from your account, not your portfolio value. It's using accounting terminology. You can see that for a Buy it goes down and for a Sell it goes up. The blurb says this audit is trying to show the sequence of transactions, the brokerage costs, true price paid and to make sure there was enough money in the account at the time.

If you want to see the latest market value portfolio curve for this portfolio, I've attached it, as i did in the other thread. It's available to all customers and sometimes shown publicly, so I hope this is seen as partial evidence and not spam.

You're doing the right thing in asking questions and seeking opinions. I'll try and answer the questions without too much bias.
Cheers!


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## Trembling Hand (7 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> I'm sure your own trading methods don't  have you taking every trade available. Further, if a subset of trades is not enough then broker statements, which are the same thing, are no better in your eyes.




This is just rubbish. The point is selectively picking a subset of signals a year after they happened is a scam. But showing broker statements of signals triggered real time and acted on and executed with real money into the market show if the product has been successful implemented. 



Look Left said:


> I know Gary Stone trades the system along with a few other staff members. I'll ask about making the broker records public. But it would only make sense if he could prove the trades were done with SPA3 signals. Which would mean getting it audited and now we're back to the same issue.




No not at all. If you/they carn't dig up proof of someone implementing the system in REAL life then why should anyone pay for it ?????????????????????????????????

Thats what is wrong with these things they look good in hind site but impossible to implement in real time. Because of the number of signals they trigger. 



Look Left said:


> So how much proof would you need? (Honest question). How did you prove your method to yourself?




Because each month there is more money in my BROKERS account than at the start. Which is what I'm asking you for.


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## professor_frink (7 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> Guys all I wanted was to hear ppls experence with using this software, sorry for opening a can of worms.
> 
> Just on the sharefinder web site, the audit link you sent me. I am a little  does the balance at the end say -97K ???
> 
> And just one more question to everyone who has replied, If someone cant give an honest answer to a question, due to fears from legal action. What is the point in having a forum?




There is a lot more discussed here than what tipsheets/software programs are being offered. Feel free to poke around and have a look  You'll find months and months of educational material posted here. And the odd argument or 50, combined with a few drunken rants every now and then. And quite a bit of pointless chatter about things that have nothing to do with the stockmarket.


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

Look left reading through this thread today it has struck me very clearly that in spite of your claims that this is a product that is worthy of OTHER peoples hard earned $ you don't use it.

DO YOU?

If you did you would of shut me down with some sort of evidence. But as you don't use it or can't make it work you carn't shut me down. All you can do is post hindsite trades. What a joke. 

Offer is still there to exchange statements? Up for it?

As for being constructive rather than negative here is my advice. For anyone looking to purchase any system Always ask for broker statements that people have successfully implemented the system not smoke and mirrors.

Hopefully over and out.    :bazooka:


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## pennywise75 (8 July 2008)

How does it work? what makes a buy/sell trigger?

why couldnt i save money and put the same filters on a cheaper charting program?

... guess I need to work out the best filters to use.. any ideas??


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## Look Left (8 July 2008)

PennyWise,
Just to clarify any thoughts about the public portfolio details I have provided and the ShareFinder audit:
These portfolios are created in real time by a real person at ShareFinder and have apparently been done like this since it begin. Trades are chosen randomly form those available. The trades are added to the portfolio the next day and immediately available to us for scrutiny.
The portfolio chart I supplied was created from this portfolio. As far as I am aware I could not have obtained this information unless I was a customer with access to the members area of the website. Verify with ShareFinder.
Neither it or the Delloite audit are a back tested or recreated images, otherwise we would be jumping up and down. And we do! Apparently, the public portfolio has become a great teaching tool, as even new customers have picked up recent small mistakes and mentioned them on the forum. Humans make mistakes!
It is true this particular portfolio was not traded with real money through a broker; this fact was never hidden. However, SPA3 does take brokerage and liquidity into account and the prices traded are real. With an average hold time of 70 days, slippage of a few cents has very little effect on the returns when you look over 6+ years.
If you re-read the other thread you will notice that all of Tech/A's questions were answered. Gary Stone even finished it off and was pretty straight down the line. He put himself out there for public scrutiny and yet no one did!
Trembling Hand,
Yes I am a customer and Yes I trade with SPA3. No one has questioned the integrity of Gary Stone and he publicly acknowledged me as a customer. From the other thread...


> Gary Stone: Before adding my 2 cents worth I would like to say that there are many many of our customers that could have answered all the questions on this thread in the same way that Look Left did, particularly all the questions on the SPA3 EDGE (% winners, % losers etc).



The other thread is quite exhaustive in detail and many people provided input to a great dicussion.

Instead of exchanging trading records what if i go one better. I'll provide my ETrade broker records to this public forum, for the same period as the audit along with a similar portfolio chart and trade history. This should provide a good comparison showing that the trades differ but were both profitable. There are only 3 conditions:
I shall remove any personal details for privacy and security reasons.
There is no way I can prove these trades were done with the SPA3 system. I can't get around the laws unless you own SPA3.
Before doing so, you publicly accept that this is enough proof and won't back down by asking for more evidence that I use SPA3 or that its a scam/spam. If I make a mistake or something isn't clear of course I will discuss it; no issue there.
Cheers!


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## Look Left (8 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> why couldnt i save money and put the same filters on a cheaper charting program?
> ... guess I need to work out the best filters to use.. any ideas??




PennyWise,
It's not just about the filters. This forum is a testament to that fact as most people here are still trying to find the holy grail of technical trading. Posters like Tech/A and Trembling Hand have obviously learnt from much experience that it also takes Money Management, Risk Management and 99% Psychology. If you have the time and patience to gather some of that together like they did, then you might just have a shot. SPA3 is far from the best trading system ever built. Actually, there is no such thing. But it does have all these ingredients and should give you a great start. I'm still learning and have a lifetime to go!

Cheers!


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> I'll provide my ETrade broker records to this public forum, for the same period as the audit along with a similar portfolio chart and trade history. This should provide a good comparison showing that the trades differ but were both profitable. There are only 3 conditions:
> I shall remove any personal details for privacy and security reasons.
> There is no way I can prove these trades were done with the SPA3 system. I can't get around the laws unless you own SPA3.
> Before doing so, you publicly accept that this is enough proof and won't back down by asking for more evidence that I use SPA3 or that its a scam/spam. If I make a mistake or something isn't clear of course I will discuss it; no issue there.
> Cheers!




I would be happy with that. As long as the site owner has no problems with it.


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## Look Left (9 July 2008)

Ok let's see how we go here. The site owners didn't post saying no go so I'm going to presume that attaching the portfolio information will be ok. After all, they stated the "must verify claims" rule and that's what I'm trying to do.

This is in no way a "Trembling Hands Vs SPA3" trading competition. I've been asked to show that SPA3 works, that I trade it and the past results are real and the audit is realistic. Which is why I'd much prefer doing this publicly than direct to any member.

I will make one apology up front. I thought this portfolio started in September 2005 but it actually started in 2006, so I'm missing the first 2.5 months to compare against the Audit, which is what I intended to do. So to make sure I wasn't overstating anything by missing a bad market period I checked the XAO and found that the market had begun to turn up in July. Therefore, IMHO, this portfolio might have done better by being fully invested prior to the main runup starting in September.

The files I've attached are:
SPA3 Portfolio - ETrade Statements - 0607 Pt1 & 2: These 2 files are my ETrade trading statements. For some reason ETrade don't put a banner on their PDFs but people who use ETrade will recognise the format.
SPA3 Portfolio - Transactions - 0607: This are the transactions from the SPA3 portfolio management software (TradeMaster). You can see they match the ETrade statements but also include interest and dividends. This format is similar to the audit documents.
SPA3 Portfolio - Trades - 0607: This is a summary of the closed trades with statistics provided from TradeMaster.
SPA3 Portfolios - Charts 0607: A chart of my portfolio showing the mark to market portfolio value and the closed trade(collateral) value. It is commented to show the main points. I have marked the capital injection in late November 06, so please don't think this jump was a closed trade. AND.  A chart of the ShareFinder public portfolio for the Audit period for comparison.
In is in no doubt that the 06/07 trading year was a great bull market and most portfolios should have done well. Your benchmarks should have been the XAO which climbed a measily 27% or the All-Ords-Accumulation which rose 30%. I do not want the charts to paint a perfect picture of SPA3; it does experience periods of drawdown. The maximum drawdowns I know of are in the range of 15 to 23%. My own portfolio has recently hit 23% due to some stupid mistakes. I'm human! 

If anyone would like to *discuss *any aspect of the information feel free to ask. At the same time I don't want the site admin to stop the post because they think it's ramping. I believe providing this type of evidence is a first for the forum!

Cheers!


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## pennywise75 (10 July 2008)

They are nice numbers, how is it preforming in current stock conditions?


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## Look Left (10 July 2008)

Since "This market" has been gripped by bad news for around for 6 months or more I have attached zoomed charts for January onwards, including this weeks falls.

The ShareFinder portfolio has dropped about 14%, since a new high was made in May. This is by no means the worst drawdown it has experienced. You may see in the older pictures below it it reached about 19% at the end of 2003, which was a long slow bear market. Putting this in perspective of the overall performance since 2001, IMHO this is just a must have glitch on the screen. The stat's say it only has 47% of it's cash currently at risk in the market. This is part of the money and risk management rules.

My portfolio has faired worse because as I said I made some mistakes. I'm currently down about 23%. I didn't make that new high in May.  I only have 35% of my cash at risk in the market.


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## nomore4s (10 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> Since "This market" has been gripped by bad news for around for 6 months or more I have attached zoomed charts for January onwards, including this weeks falls.
> 
> The ShareFinder portfolio has dropped about 14%, since a new high was made in May. This is by no means the worst drawdown it has experienced. You may see in the older pictures below it it reached about 19% at the end of 2003, which was a long slow bear market. Putting this in perspective of the overall performance since 2001, IMHO this is just a must have glitch on the screen. The stat's say it only has 47% of it's cash currently at risk in the market. This is part of the money and risk management rules.
> 
> My portfolio has faired worse because as I said I made some mistakes. I'm currently down about 23%. I didn't make that new high in May.  I only have 35% of my cash at risk in the market.




Does the system recongise when the market conditions are no good for it and switch itself off? Or are there signs so the user can switch it off and switch it back on when the markets are favourable to it again? Or does it just stop giving signals?

Surely it can't be profitable over all market conditions?


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## Look Left (10 July 2008)

nomore4s said:


> Does the system recognise when the market conditions are no good for it and switch itself off? Or are there signs so the user can switch it off and switch it back on when the markets are favourable to it again? Or does it just stop giving signals?



A bit of everything. There are signals provided to tell you when conditions aren't favourable and the guidelines adjust your position sizes based on these factors, along with a few other factors that are fully explained in the manual. (As mentioned in the other thread, nothing is hidden). In addition the amount of buy signals tends to fluctuate in line with the market conditions, which helps keep your money out of the market. 



nomore4s said:


> Surely it can't be profitable over all market conditions?



Absolutely not. All the portfolio charts I've attached have shown it has good and bad periods. Not even the best traders in the world make profit every day or every month. That's why Money and Risk management are much more important than having a positive expectancy technical signal by itself.


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## pennywise75 (11 July 2008)

nomore4s said:


> Does the system recongise when the market conditions are no good for it and switch itself off? Or are there signs so the user can switch it off and switch it back on when the markets are favourable to it again? Or does it just stop giving signals?
> 
> Surely it can't be profitable over all market conditions?




With CFD's is there really a bad time in the market? Would I really like to find out how the CFD version has preformed over the last 6months.

With a bit of FA (and maybe common sense) I would have got in on some of the resource / metals sector eg BHP, STO, NCM. RIO, WPL. look how much they have gained in a bear market.

Did SPA3 have any recommodatiion to go long on these stock?

Looking at your Etrade stament, the companies traded seemed to be low cap/ higher beta stock, Does spa3 trade many blue chip shares?

one last question 

Does SPA3 take divendeds into count?

Thanks


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## Look Left (11 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> With CFD's is there really a bad time in the market? Would I really like to find out how the CFD version has preformed over the last 6months.



They have only just released the CFD version so i don't think a live portfolio is available to view.  



pennywise75 said:


> With a bit of FA (and maybe common sense) I would have got in on some of the resource / metals sector eg BHP, STO, NCM. RIO, WPL. look how much they have gained in a bear market.
> Did SPA3 have any recommendation to go long on these stock?



I don't know about you but I keep leaving my crystal ball in my other jacket . Sure, I had several resource and energy stocks in my portfolio in the last 6 months but SPA3 doesn't target a sector, it targets all stocks that give signals and balances them across the portfolio using risk management. So I never have to worry about what might happen.



pennywise75 said:


> Looking at your Etrade stament, the companies traded seemed to be low cap/ higher beta stock, Does spa3 trade many blue chip shares?



The standard setup for SPA3 looks at just about every stock on the ASX if its liquid enough to trade. Given that you can only have so many trades open at one time, the chance of having mostly bluechips is slim. If you so desire, all the tools are available to alter and back test SPA3 on a subset of stocks, eg the ASX500. Personally, I wouldn't restrict myself to just bluechips; as a trader they just don't move enough.




pennywise75 said:


> Does SPA3 take dividends into count?



 I had to check this in the Sharefinder portfolio. Yes they do but since you might not be in a stock when they go ex-div, overall they only contribute a small amount. But still with compounding everything helps. 

Cheers!


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 July 2008)

Pennywise75 and Look Left, please excuse my cynicism. 

I've never bought a black box, but know a number of traders who have, they all lost eventually and had to wear the cost of the black box as well.

Excuse also my suspicions about your identities. Its just that to have two new members on the forum, discussing a commercial product, in tandem, in a dumb/expert duo, much as one would find on a television advertisement for washing powder, is a bit of a coincidence.  

If as I suspect you have an interest that is more than altruistic in SFA3, then you should quietly exit. 

Nobody will notice.

Why is it called SFA3?, its not a good name. Do you know what SFA stands for?

gg

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.


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## nomore4s (11 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> With CFD's is there really a bad time in the market?



Where to start with this comment. No offence but this shows a clear lack of understanding about CFDs and the market in general. 

Potentially any time is a bad time in the market with CFDs, just because you can go long or short with CFDs it doesn't stop the market moving against you.

CFDs are a highly leveraged item and as such the risks can be magnified especially with poor money management. Look Left has already stated a 23% drawdown because he/she made some mistakes, same mistakes made using CFDs could be even worse due to the leverage.

Also if you are trading a system (any system) and the market conditions you are trading do not suit the system you will have serious drawdown or even go bust no matter what, whether your trading shares or CFDs.



pennywise75 said:


> With a bit of FA (and maybe common sense) I would have got in on some of the resource / metals sector eg BHP, STO, NCM. RIO, WPL. look how much they have gained in a bear market.




Be careful here.
The reason for using a system (again any system) is to take some of the guess work out of trading and to try to create some sort of an edge. You get a signal to buy, you buy, get a signal to sell, you sell.
You start adding to the system by using your own selection criteria you start corrupting the system. All the back testing and work that have gone into building the system and creating that edge have now gone out the window.

Remember it is easy to pick stocks in hindsight, it's alot harder to get in before they run. If you were able to pick these stocks with commonsense and a bit of FA what do you need this system for?

Don't fall into the beginners trap of searching for the holy grail and trying to re-invent the wheel.

Edit: lol gg, I thinks it's actually SPA.
I would also never buy into a system like this. Especially in this market and while it is suffering some serious drawdown in a market that is showing no signs of turning around, the drawdown could get alot worse yet.


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## pennywise75 (11 July 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Excuse also my suspicions about your identities. Its just that to have two new members on the forum, discussing a commercial product, in tandem, in a dumb/expert duo, much as one would find on a television advertisement for washing powder, is a bit of a coincidence.
> .




Which one would I be, dumb or expert?

Could you please explain to me what a forum is?

Looking back through my post I can see why you guys would think i am on the sharefinder payroll. I guess you must have seen it a few times .. ohwell

I am trying to find information about this product, I am still learning and if that makes me seem "dumb" then so be it.  

Not a nice welcome to a forum, 

Anyhow ... GG how did you start out in your journey on knowledge? can you give me a few pointers? Whats stratagy do you employ that is better then SPA3?


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## pennywise75 (11 July 2008)

_you know the best way to get rid of sprukers is to give the punters a better alternative... think about it_


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## Look Left (11 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> Could you please explain to me what a forum is?
> ......
> 
> Not a nice welcome to a forum,
> ...



Pennywise, I couldn't agree more. I've been a member of this forum for some time and originally joined to widen my knowledge of what else is out there. Initially, I just read many of the posts but became a bit disheartened by the lack of respect and content from many posters, which put me off posting myself . But there are some good posters and I actually enjoyed the other thread with Tech/A and Ron1in; good questions and advice that anyone could take on board.. (There's also a few funny ones just to break the day up!)

I too can understand why they think this is an advertisement but like you say how else do you find out about products or services!!  No one savages comments on Nick Radge or shuts down posts on Interactive Brokers. I think I've gone beyond the norm in staying civilised and providing evidence to every aggressive quip. I'm no expert in trading and try not to force my methods on anyone else. If someone asks a question on something I know about then I can offer an opinion which can be accepted or rejected.* If it helps you get a good start in trading then great.* *Isn't that what the forum is about!?*

If you have any further questions then please ask but otherwise I'll do myself a favour and just read for a while. Good luck!

PS: Thanks nomore4s for the previous comments. I was thinking much the same things but wanted to restrict my replies. Sound advice!


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## professor_frink (11 July 2008)

Look Left said:


> ......... I think I've gone beyond the norm in staying civilised and providing evidence to every aggressive quip. I'm no expert in trading and try not to force my methods on anyone else. If someone asks a question on something I know about then I can offer an opinion which can be accepted or rejected........




after going to the length you have to post about this method I'm inclined to agree. So far you are the first person that uses a store bought system from a vendor and has actually posted details of what you are up to, which IMO says quite a lot about the belief you have in the method. Something I haven't seen elsewhere so far in my time on  web forums outside of the guys that use Radge's services.

On the topic of the results you've gotten so far, the results for this year - they are the sharefinder equity curves and not your own yes? If so, how have your own results compared with the model portfolios?

Cheers


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## Look Left (11 July 2008)

Yes, I have a solid belief in SPA3 and my trading. You have to reach a point in your trading where you trust yourself and the way you trade. This mindset can't be bought, you need to learn it.

Re the portfolios, I think you're referring to this post:
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313217&postcount=28
The description talks about the performance since January for the Sharefinder Portfolio and My Portfolio. The charts shown are for both. Sorry, i didn't label them very well. The top one is Sharefinder, the bottom one is mine.


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## Gaz (11 July 2008)

> The point is selectively picking a subset of signals a year after they happened is a scam.




EVERY transaction in the publicly traded SPA3 Portfolio is published at the time that they are signaled by the SPA3 methodology, both entry and exit signals. No Harry hindsight involved here.

This discussion has been brought to my attention. I'm sorry, I can't let my integrity be questioned without a response. It is very easy to make general criticisms based on general assumptions. 

Having done this trading caper for 18 years and having researched plenty of claims of fantastic trading results, I can understand why people can be cynical and critical of built systems available for purchase (BTW SPA3 is not a 'black box'). Perhaps before being as publicly critical as you have been (Trembling Hand) about a specific product and specific company you should at least have put in a little effort to find out a little about both. Maybe next time........

Applying generic criticisms and general assumptions to specific situations is not a good trading mindset to have.  It can cause perceptual blindness to realities that are occurring right before your eyes. 

One thing that trading has taught me is that a probability of 1 (one) does not exist in large samples. But neither does a probability of 0 (zero). So maybe, just maybe, there is a/are company/ies that provides a complete mechanical trading methodology that does add value to peoples’ lives. 



> Thats what is wrong with these things they look good in hind site but impossible to implement in real time. Because of the number of signals they trigger.




Another thing that trading has taught me is that having an open mind (I call it 'neutrality') leads to better outcomes in all walks of life.

You see, with your current paradigm you can’t possibly contemplate that some method can work even it generates more signals that any one trader can possibly trade. 

I  won’t even try to convince you otherwise on an open forum. However maybe you should learn to keep your mind open to the possibility that things that you are unaware of or things that haven’t yet crossed your radar could possibly work. 

Isn’t that why you belong to an open Forum, so that you can learn from others? The act of questioning opens us up to perceive the existence of other possibilities. However, just making criticising statements from your current paradigm closes your mind to the possibility of the existence of other ways.



> If you/they carn't dig up proof of someone implementing the system in REAL life then why should anyone pay for it ?????????????????????????????????




The question to build or buy a trading methodology has been around for a long time. I respect people that embark on the path of building their own system. Why shouldn't I? I did so and I recommend it. But just as buying the wheel doesn't suit everybody neither does building your own suit everybody.

All that I know about Trembling Hand is that he/she has a Blog and lives in Melbourne. I too am in Melbourne (Melways Map 86 - address on the ShareFinder website) so I invite Trembling Hand to pop around to investigate a couple of real live SPA3 portfolios (including customers) that have been traded for many years. 

You can spend as much time as you like investigating the real live portfolios (being a mechanical system it is very easy to verify historical trades) and our publicly traded portfolio.

This invitation is open ended.



> Because each month there is more money in my BROKERS account than at the start.




I cannot declare that every month of my trading career has been a positive month so maybe we'll both learn something …….

Gary Stone
On the journey....



> There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of variables that define an edge.


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## pennywise75 (12 July 2008)

nomore4s said:


> Where to start with this comment. No offence but this shows a clear lack of understanding about CFDs and the market in general.
> 
> Potentially any time is a bad time in the market with CFDs, just because you can go long or short with CFDs it doesn't stop the market moving against you.




Thanks for the advice, I quess what I was trying to say. Wouldnt a trading system that can pick buys also be able to pick a short trade?

If so then there would not really be a good/bad market condition. 

And I am also aware the CFDs are a leverage product and need to add the level of risk to my managment system (when i get around to designing one)

I am still learning, if you think I am wrong in my thinking I will not take offence.

Thanks for your time


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## nomore4s (12 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> Thanks for the advice, I quess what I was trying to say. Wouldnt a trading system that can pick buys also be able to pick a short trade?
> 
> If so then there would not really be a good/bad market condition.
> 
> ...




What you need to understand about trading a system is that they are generally built with certain market conditions in mind, as soon as the market condition changes so to does the performance of that system.

Just because you can go short doesn't mean you will make money in this market. Alot depends on how the signals are generated to go long or short, how the stops are set, etc etc. You could get whipshawed in & out of positions very quickly in this market, therefore losing money.

I know alot of mechanical traders have turned thier systems off in the last few months because the current conditions do not suit.

It is good that you want to learn and ask questions before jumping in. I personally think you are better off learning and understanding why a system makes money before buying a system off the shelf, it will stand you in better stead for a long time over differenet market conditions.

The fact that Gary Stone has posted on here in reply is also somewhat of a good sign imo, he seems quite upfront and open which is quite rare for people selling trading systems.


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## pennywise75 (12 July 2008)

Thanks for your advice 
I would rather design my own trading system, but to be honest with all the information out there on this subject, i have been bombarded with information  

Candlesticks, support resistance, FA, MA, MACD, GANN,flagging patterns, throwing darts at list of company names (altho fun, not a good method)

Most these strategies have good results (from the charts the authors print)  I am currently paper trading some of these strategies in search of a trading system.

But as i stated in my first post, I am time poor. The reason I joined this site was to see if an of the shelf mechanical system that had a reasonable profit and didn’t take to much time was anygood

I think experienced traders really need to think back to when they started out, and the bs they had to sort through to get to where they are now.

Maybe these traders could give me an alternative path


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## MichaelD (12 July 2008)

pennywise75 said:


> But as i stated in my first post, I am time poor. The reason I joined this site was to see if an of the shelf mechanical system that had a reasonable profit and didn’t take to much time was anygood
> 
> I think experienced traders really need to think back to when they started out, and the bs they had to sort through to get to where they are now.
> 
> Maybe these traders could give me an alternative path




My  after lurking on this thread for a while with great interest. Just some random thoughts.

Note: I trade systems I have developed myself and continue to develop systems. I find the development cycle intrisically interesting (the actual trading I leave to my wife since I find that boring). Despite this I have entertained thoughts of purchasing an off-the-shelf weekly long term trend following system since I've already created a long term trend following system based on daily data - so I've been there, done that. My development time is spent on other time frames and other markets these days - long term systems for trading the ASX are all basically the same at heart, so there is nothing much new for me to learn by developing a weekly system from scratch.

The biggest problem with trading an off-the-shelf system is that if it doesn't suit your psychology, you will give up on it, usually at just about the time when it is about to turn around and start making money.

Very few off-the-shelf systems are any good because 1/ they don't suit your psychology, and 2/ they are black or grey box systems that are overpriced and underperforming (or just plan bad). This leads to extreme cynicism on forums such as this one (and fair enough too).

The way to tell the good from the bad is to find out whether they cover risk management, money management and psychology. The ones that do are more likely to be good than bad.

The good ones won't promise you 100% winning trades (or even 80% winning trades). 40-50% is just fine.

The good ones will disclose the system to you rather than just providing entry/exit signals.

One MAJOR advantage of rolling your own system is that you will understand how it trades. You will have faith in it when it goes into drawdown.

One other thing to consider is whether or not you want to put in some time backtesting and paper trading an out-of-the-box system. If you do not want to do this, you are entirely reliant on the system developers doing the right thing and actually designing a system that works. If you do your own backtesting and paper trading - well, that's quite time consuming. An off-the-shelf system requires either great faith on your part to trade immediately with real money or pretty much the same amount of time as a roll-your-own in pre-testing.

Something that has occurred to me over the years is that those that sell systems (or tip sheets) market their entry to you. Novices buy entries. In the case of SPA3, it is the semi-mysterious SIROC indicator that piques interest. However, the good systems/tip sheets will perform a bit of a sleight-of-hand trick to get you to actually couple the correct exit and money management techniques to the entry (and it's the latter that actually makes you profitable).

Based on the posts here, SPA3 appears to be a robust trading system. What you must decide is if you can handle how the system trades; can you handle the initial string of losses; can you handle a 20% or more drawdown (start with $100,000 and see $20,000 of losses before you see any winning trades - entirely feasible with SPA3 [and my system, too]); can you handle 10 losses in a row? All of this WILL happen at some point in time whilst the system is "doing its thing" - can YOU cope with this?


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## Gaz (15 July 2008)

> The biggest problem with trading an off-the-shelf system is that if it doesn't suit your psychology, you will give up on it,......




MichaelD, good posting, most of which I agree with.   Just one point that I think can further contribute to the thread and that is this question of whether it is the system that needs to suit the trader's psychology or the trader's psychology that needs to suit the market?

I believe that it is the traders psychology that needs to suit the market. We are all programmed to live and prosper in society from the day we are born.  The lessons that we learn to achieve this do not translate into successful trading in the markets. This is one of the major reasons why most don't succeed in the markets in any timeframe of trading whether or not they use a system and whether that system is homegrown or bought. 

It's not until they become empathetic with the market and think from the perspective of market price action that they start becoming successful on a consistent basis. 

If a mechanical system is not used to trade the market then, by definition, the trader is a discretionary trader. A discretionary trader uses the decision support systems (DSS's) that emanate from their societal programming (deeply seated in their subconscious). These DSS's override the TA patterns and signals that they compute with their logical mind. The question is, does the trader's discretionary decision support systems have an edge in the market? How do they know or find out? A leading question........

A mechanical system emanates from market price action. It's edge is known before the trader starts trading. 

At first, any beginnner trader (discretionary or mechanical) will have difficulty turning a profit in the markets. There are many reasons for this including lack of knowledge and familiarity with the environment etc but that knowledge eventually comes and most still continue to lose. At this stage it is not knowledge that is holding them back but their psychology. (I truly believe from years of feedback and coaching that the mechanical beginner will do far better than the discretionary beginner for one main reason - the limiting of large loss trades by the mechanical trader.)

They need to find a way to match their psychology to the market not find/build a system that matches their psychology. By definition, the latter will never work because any system that has an edge (sufficiently positive mathematical expectation to cover transaction costs and slippage and still make a profit) emanates from the market and has the market's perspective (let's call it the market's psychology) built into it.

The challenge is for the trader to change their psychology to match the market and this is done by trading a mechanical system that emanates from the market. The mechanical system is the major part of the process of transitioning the trader from trying to trade with a societal paradigm to trading with a market paradigm.

Trial and error discretionary trading may eventually help the trader make the mindset transition but it could take many many years, if they have the perseverence and the capital to keep going. Mechanical trading is a high probability short cut method of making the transition.

If you are looking for further evidence to this thinking have a look at the exercise on page 189 of Mark Douglas's book Trading in the Zone. I know from surveys (and other sources) that very very few ever start let alone complete this exercise. The reasons why are for another day.

I trust that I have been able to convey a complex subject is a few words.

On the journey


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## MichaelD (16 July 2008)

Gaz said:


> They need to find a way to match their psychology to the market not find/build a system that matches their psychology.




Garry,

A very good series of points. I know from my own personal journey that it has gone like this so far;

1. Resolution Made: I will become a full time trader. Note that I *hate* to be wrong about anything I resolve to do.

2. Initial Belief System: I will achieve my goal by using charting to predict winning trades. I will take $100 profit out of every trade. I will hold onto unprofitable trades until they make $100. Basically - I will be right 100% of the time.

3. Belief System Modified By Actual Trading Results: Lots of $100 profits...but look at those retained losses. This is not working out as I expected. Time to re-evaluate.

4. New belief system: I will become a full time trader by taking lots of small losses and some very large wins. Despite the fact that this means I will "lose" most of the time, at a level above this I will "win", and this will satisfy me.


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## Dine (11 October 2009)

*SPA3 Share trading system*

I am thinking of buying this package. Has anyone used it and what do they think of it? I would really appreciate some feedback.


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## Aussienam (11 June 2020)

Dine said:


> *SPA3 Share trading system*
> 
> I am thinking of buying this package. Has anyone used it and what do they think of it? I would really appreciate some feedback.





Hi, 11 yrs on I read this post and wondering you went ahead with SPA3 and if so how did you go?


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