# It's Time To Tell China To Get Nicked



## dutchie (7 May 2020)

*Hugging China hasn’t done us any favours*

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article...0509  AL+CID_c6f19a07f0d57c499318c2e1bbf58f70
I agree with Douglas Murray
*It isn’t healthy to have your officials lick another country’s shoes. Or be told that you’re chewing gum on the bottom of them.*

It's time we did the Aussie thing and tell China to get nicked.


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## dutchie (7 May 2020)

China faces economic hit as countries seek to bring factories back home

https://smallcaps.com.au/china-faces-economic-hit-countries-seek-bring-factories-home/

We should bring our factories home over time.


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## basilio (8 May 2020)

*It isn’t healthy to have your officials lick another country’s shoes. Or be told that you’re chewing gum on the bottom of them.*

Funny.  I swear those headlines were to do with having to suck up the Liar in Chief of the world Bigleys Rogue State.  Donald xxxxxxxxx Trump


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## SirRumpole (8 May 2020)

I agree with the concept that we should be manufacturing more stuff here, as long as people can afford what we produce, and for that it needs people in full time , well paying jobs.

The rise of automation and the gig economy seems to indicate that good jobs will be hard to find in the future unless something is done to reinvigorate our education system, starting with STEM skills in school and moving on to a rebuilding of TAFE trade courses in things like design and maintenance of manufacturing robots and the software that drives them.

This isn't just an anti China thing, it's pretty vital for our economy that we diversify from just digging things out of the ground and "service" jobs.


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## dutchie (8 May 2020)

# Japan has committed ¥243.5 billion (A$3.54 billion) to help its manufacturers ship plants out of China.

# So far, 180 Taiwanese companies have brought manufacturing back from Mainland China, investing NT$751 billion (A$39.01 billion) on the island (of which its official name, by the way, is still the Republic of China).
One of the reasons for doing is because manufacturing in Taiwan is not affected by the US tariffs on China.

# US National Economic Council director Larry Kudlowhas said Washington should pay the moving costs of US firms bringing their manufacturing back to the US.

“I would say 100% immediate expensing across the board for plant, equipment, intellectual property, structures, renovations,” he told a television interviewer.

One leading healthcare producer in the US has identified 22 types of protective clothing and 30 drugs that should be produced in America to ensure security of supply.

The move by US companies to China (as well as Mexico and other low-wage jurisdictions) has not only seen millions of jobs disappear, but trade deficits mount.


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## moXJO (8 May 2020)

India is trying to poach manufacturing. They have special economic/development  zones, as their property and zoning laws are a nightmare.

Mexico is gathering steam for the US. South America could be a powerhouse if they got their sht sorted.

I do not see much manufacturing move out of China at this stage, unless there are huge incentives. China is already well established. Plus it would be at a huge cost to pick up and move. Businesses only care about the bottom line and China's environmental laws allow for greater cost cutting measures.
 The only way is if this cold war gets any nastier and harsh tariffs are used.

I do think we have too many eggs in one basket. Medication pretty much all comes from China, and they can stop exporting anytime they like.
Everything around us is made in China. It's a dangerous position. 
I am seeing slight shifts to Vietnam, Thailand (which is often very good quality), Indonesia, etc. Chinese goods are extremely cheap though. Alibaba has one price for Chinese and another for westerners. You can get a lot lower then the ticket prices.


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## Smurf1976 (8 May 2020)

I'm not against China but I am definitely for Australia. There's a difference there.

Of course we should be manufacturing more here, at least on the basis of an actual "level playing field" not one where some other country cheats with low wages, fails to comply with Australia, EU or similar environmental and safety laws and so on.

Tariffs as a concept to even up the balance, to counteract such cheating, seem entirely reasonable. Sure there's a cost but we're fooling ourselves if we think our current economic model is sustainable. No country has a need for ongoing "education" imports, that's immediately obvious to anyone who actually has an education, and there's a very real risk that the world moves away from fossil fuels in which case Australia's current model is close to stuffed.

So we need to diversify and we need to do so quickly, manufacturing being one thing we should be doing more of. It'll help keep the bright ones here too - there's far more opportunity for those who can and do make things happen in manufacturing than there will ever be in the low value services sector.


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## dutchie (10 May 2020)

*China’s Military Is Tied to Debilitating New Cyberattack Tool*
An Israeli security company said the hacking software, called Aria-body, had been deployed against governments and state-owned companies in Australia and Southeast Asia.

“We know that China is probably the single biggest source of cyberespionage coming into Australia by a very long way,” said Peter Jennings, a former Australian defense official who is the executive director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/world/asia/china-hacking-military-aria.html


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## dutchie (10 May 2020)

*LORD PATTEN: China's nasty, lying, bullying Communist regime must face the judgment of the world over the coronavirus pandemic*

But what should co-operation in the future mean? We cannot simply go back to our dealings with Chinese Communists and do business as we did before.

First, there is always the inherent danger presented by Communist hostility to the truth.

Plainly, we should work, at the UN and elsewhere, with other countries in calling for a full and open expert inquiry into the causes and early dissemination of the virus. Failure to do this will hamper the fight against it today and the attempts to prevent a future occurrence.

Naturally, in a better world, the World Heath Organisation (WHO) should be the vehicle for such an inquiry. Yet there are real worries – not just on the part of President Trump – about the extent to which this body has been suborned by Beijing. 

If you doubt that, just look at the way the WHO has connived with the Communist regime to freeze Taiwan – with a population of almost 24 million – out of the organisation.

We surely cannot allow China to go on preventing a free society which tells the truth from joining the WHO.

Calling for an inquiry has raised another matter which should bother us all. On January 30, the Chinese foreign minister, Wang Yi, assured his Australian counterpart, Marise Payne, that ‘the epidemic is generally preventable, controllable and curable’.

A fortnight later, China’s embassy in Canberra attacked Australia’s restrictions on travel from China as an extreme overreaction.

Yet, from late January, China had been buying and shipping huge quantities of medical supplies from Australia. What did they know but wouldn’t tell us?

It’s no surprise then that Scott Morrison, Australia’s premier, recently called for an international inquiry. This was met by threats from the Chinese ambassador in Canberra, one of his country’s new-style ‘wolf warrior diplomats’, that unless Australia gave up this idea, perhaps the Chinese would stop buying Australian goods.

This is the sort of bullying tactic we have come to expect from China. The world should denounce it for a change. As many of Australia’s friends as possible should say how much we agree with Canberra’s proposal. On trade and economic issues, we should deal with China together. China’s economic growth depends largely on Australia’s minerals.

China’s President Xi Jinping hates democracies and all that we stand for. Shortly after he became China’s dictator, he issued new instructions to his government and party officials warning of the challenge to Communism posed by the Western values of freedom and the rule of law. He called for attacks on the West’s idea of journalism, free historical inquiry, civil society and democracy.

Meanwhile, China continues to throw its weight around in the seas surrounding its coast, building military bases there and flagrantly disregarding the judgment of the Hague Tribunal on its legal maritime borders.

The world has to work together. Sure. But we cannot allow Chinese Communists to break the rules or to distort them to suit themselves.

One day this nasty and dangerous regime will go. Until then, all the friends of freedom and decency will have to be on our guard.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...mmunist-regime-face-judgment-coronavirus.html


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## Value Collector (10 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *Hugging China hasn’t done us any favours*
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hugging-china-hasnt-done-us-any-favours?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=WEEK 20200509 AL+CID_c6f19a07f0d57c499318c2e1bbf58f70
> I agree with Douglas Murray
> ...




They are our largest export destination, I think without them we would a third world country, but with them we have basically avoided a recession for a generation.


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## Value Collector (10 May 2020)

think of the billions of dollars this 1 port and mines bring to Australia.

As an FMG investor, I love our relationship with china.

It's funny hearing my Grandmother in-law complain about china over lunch, which was paid for by my FMG dividends, Hahaha, people often don't realise the flow of cash that feeds them.


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## chiff (10 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *LORD PATTEN: China's nasty, lying, bullying Communist regime must face the judgment of the world over the coronavirus pandemic*
> 
> But what should co-operation in the future mean? We cannot simply go back to our dealings with Chinese Communists and do business as we did before.
> 
> ...



One thing that was pointed out to me was that the US(helped by the Aust Navy) controls the Persian Gulf.That is maybe where the Chinese got the idea of controlling access in the South China Sea?Is that Lord Patten the last British governor of Hong Kong?


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## sptrawler (10 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> They are our largest export destination, I think without them we would a third world country, but with them we have basically avoided a recession for a generation.



I think that is very true and the very reason why we will end up in manure. 
When they have finished with us, we will be thrown out with the bath water, that is kicking the can down the road big time IMO.


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## SirRumpole (10 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think that is very true and the very reason why we will end up in manure.
> When they have finished with us, we will be thrown out with the bath water, that is kicking the can down the road big time IMO.




Some pretty good evidence for what you said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ustralia-trade-tension-barley-tariff/12232426

How about banning Chinese steel in return ?


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## sptrawler (10 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some pretty good evidence for what you said.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ustralia-trade-tension-barley-tariff/12232426
> 
> How about banning Chinese steel in return ?



Just put an export tax on the iron ore, the banks were hit with an extra tax.
https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5447678/bank-levy-makes-up-for-tax-cut-morrison/


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## Dona Ferentes (10 May 2020)

Just another version of The Great Game, with Co-dependency as a subplot.


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some pretty good evidence for what you said.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ustralia-trade-tension-barley-tariff/12232426
> 
> How about banning Chinese steel in return ?




We export far more iron than we import steel.

If we make trading with us to difficult or expensive they will simply find other markets to buy from, eg Africa.

don’t bite the hand that feeds you I say.

Africa is fast growing to be a big trading partner with China, and they have the ability to produce most of the stuff we sell.


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> don’t bite the hand that feeds you I say.




So if you didn't have any money invested there, what would be your opinion of China ?


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## sptrawler (11 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> don’t bite the hand that feeds you I say.



Which is a great saying, until you have nothing to trade for the food.
We would be far better served developing other markets, the problem we have is we will end up just working for China, as they will end up owning the resources, e.g the Worlds largest lithium mine in Greenbushes W.A.


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## chiff (11 May 2020)

As is said China is all about the long term,and I am sure that they can remember when the western powers divided China into their own regions-regions for their exclusive exploitation.China has ensured that does not happen again.
On the Miley Cyrus (virus) -I hear Germany and France are having private conversations with China to discover more etc. Trump is playing the bellicose politics.Which has the better chance of success?


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2020)

A contact of mine does business in China and they contracted a Chinese company to make containers for them.

After a while they found that the containers were failing. They contacted the manufacturer and discovered that the manufacturer had neglected to add a hardening component to make the containers stronger. When they enquired why, the manufacturer said the hardening agent was too expensive and un-necessary. 

This is one of many stories about lack of standards in Chinese industry, it's all about profits not product and they will cut corners anywhere they can to make money.


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## moXJO (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some pretty good evidence for what you said.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ustralia-trade-tension-barley-tariff/12232426
> 
> How about banning Chinese steel in return ?



It's going into Vietnam and being sold from there.


Value Collector said:


> Africa is fast growing to be a big trading partner with China, and they have the ability to produce most of the stuff we sell.




They are locking them into debt traps. China is investing in the region as a soft takeover. It's not if, but when Africa replaces us. Its easier to bribe african nations, cheaper, less regulated. It's just a matter of time.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> It's going into Vietnam and being sold from there.
> 
> They are locking them into debt traps. China is investing in the region as a soft takeover. It's not if, but when Africa replaces us. Its easier to bribe african nations, cheaper, less regulated. It's just a matter of time.



I was talking to a South African that owns a tour company in Durban, he said the Chinese pump orders into small companies which then have to gear up to fill the orders, then the orders are not renewed and the company folds and is picked up cheap.
Thinking any of the big mining companies are going to pay our welfare, when the resources are depleted is utter nonsense, they are there to make as much money as possible full stop.
We have to get back to where we were in the 1970's, before the Lima agreement.
There is no reason BHP, Rio, Fortescue etc can't be made to develop a steel industry, even if it is only for domestic consumption, at least it is more jobs and a reduction in imports.


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## PZ99 (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> A contact of mine does business in China and they contracted a Chinese company to make containers for them.
> 
> After a while they found that the containers were failing. They contacted the manufacturer and discovered that the manufacturer had neglected to add a hardening component to make the containers stronger. When they enquired why, the manufacturer said the hardening agent was too expensive and un-necessary.
> 
> This is one of many stories about lack of standards in Chinese industry, it's all about profits not product and they will cut corners anywhere they can to make money.



Yeppers, but that's a worldwide trend driven by greed. 
They cut corners because we want cheaper.

We used to buy Chinese alucobest cladding because it was cheap.


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2020)

PZ99 said:


> They cut corners because we want cheaper.




Cheaper to the specified standards, yes. Maybe we have been lax in enforcing those standards.


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Which is a great saying, until you have nothing to trade for the food.
> We would be far better served developing other markets, the problem we have is we will end up just working for China, as they will end up owning the resources, e.g the Worlds largest lithium mine in Greenbushes W.A.




we should develop all the markets we can, ofcourse but that doesn’t me we have to tell our best customer to tack off in the process.


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So if you didn't have any money invested there, what would be your opinion of China ?




regardless of which Australian company you invest in, you are benefiting from the Chinese trade relationship, money from the Chinese trade flows through our entire economy, even Nurses and police officers are paid with tax dollars from Chinese trade.

Even if I had no investments and was still just a soldier, I would like unnecessarily damaging our relationship would be dumb.

If we are uncomfortable having 35% of our trade go to China, we’ll let’s expand other markets by all means, but do it by growing the other markets, not shrinking the China one.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we should develop all the markets we can, ofcourse but that doesn’t me we have to tell our best customer to tack off in the process.



I agree and no doubt it would all be done in a professional manner, the problem is as this virus has shown, we are too dependent on imports.
The Lima agreement was signed to help countries like China, Vietnam, Thailand, Brazil, etc to industrialise, therefore lifting their living standards and it was a successful project as they are all manufacturing Countries now (whether that has translated into lifting them out of poverty, is another discussion).
However China has done it on streroids and is actually now an industrial power house, the problem for us is, the only way we can get value adding industries built will be by making it a condition of resource extraction IMO.
We haven't got a big enough market place to get the volumetric efficiencies that China can achieve, so we will never be able to beat them on a cost base metric.
Therefore it will have to be done by a regulatory platform, that makes it a requirement we buy the Australian product, with something like steel we will be fairly competitive because we have all the resources and energy requirements to make it.
I worked in a blast furnace at Kwinana in the 1970's, it was one of the most efficient furnaces in the World at changing output grades of pig iron, but as soon as the requirement for BHP to expand the steel works was waived, it was shut down and steel imports slowly phased out Australian Iron and Steel.
As Australia is still in a growth phase population wise, it makes sense to use this opportunity to re invigorate the steel industry and supply our own market.
It would have minimal effect on China's production and they shouldn't see it as a threat, our standard of living is dependent on us having sustainable industry and jobs growth, the current structure will lead to a reduction in high paying permanent jobs an increase in welfare and add to that an increase in population = a drop in living standards.
There is no point in being super wealthy in a high crime/ high poverty society, all it brings about is a resentment for the well off, Australia really does need to address the issue as it is inevitable IMO.


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we should develop all the markets we can, ofcourse but that doesn’t me we have to tell our best customer to tack off in the process.




We should be able to request a simple enquiry into covid without being bullied and harassed by an international gorilla that cares only for itself. 

For all anyone knows the virus might have originated outside China, but the fact that China is so deperate to cover things up is a pretty good indication that they know they are responsible.

Selling your soul for shekels will end badly unless we put those shekels into planning for what we will do when our resources no longer exist.


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We should be able to request a simple enquiry into covid without being bullied and harassed by an international gorilla that cares only for itself.
> 
> For all anyone knows the virus might have originated outside China, but the fact that China is so deperate to cover things up is a pretty good indication that they know they are responsible.
> 
> Selling your soul for shekels will end badly unless we put those shekels into planning for what we will do when our resources no longer exist.




Try asking The USA for an international investigation into something, and you will do no better.

Let some of the other big dogs burn their bridges fighting China, we should be the smiling face to all other nations, selling our goods and services.


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Try asking The USA for an international investigation into something, and you will do no better.
> 
> Let some of the other big dogs burn their bridges fighting China, we should be the smiling face to all other nations, selling our goods and services.




I suppose that makes sense untill you realise they want something else in return, like political subservience.


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## macca (11 May 2020)

It will all throw the spotlight on Free Trade Agreements, any serious investigation of these things raises more questions than answers IMO

How can we pay $25 per hour and compete with $25 pcm ?

We have proven that we have to have tariffs or some form of protection or we all go broke


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

macca said:


> It will all throw the spotlight on Free Trade Agreements, any serious investigation of these things raises more questions than answers IMO
> 
> How can we pay $25 per hour and compete with $25 pcm ?
> 
> We have proven that we have to have tariffs or some form of protection or we all go broke




tariffs are just another tax on consumers.

The fact is each country should just be producing the goods and services they are good at producing, where they have natural competitive advantages.

There is stuff we can produce cheaper or better than China, and there is stuff we can’t.

Adding tariffs just stops Australian consumers from getting access to cheaper products and retaliation tariffs just destroy the markets for the stuff we could be exporting.

So tariffs will force the Australian consumer to over pay and prop up inefficient industries, while it holds back and lowers profits on the good ones.


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## Value Collector (11 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I suppose that makes sense untill you realise they want something else in return, like political subservience.




All they want is us to stay out of their business, and sell them stuff.

We aren’t in a position to change them through trade embargoes any way, So I say we should be the economic equivalent of Switzerland. 

As I said let the big dogs fight it out, we will just end up with a bloody nose other wise.


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## dutchie (13 May 2020)

We must stand up to China


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## PZ99 (14 May 2020)

Where's Clive Palmer when you need him ? 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-19/clive-palmer-attacks-chinese-government/5679900?nw=0


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## SirRumpole (14 May 2020)

It seems to me that it's impossible to have a sensible relationship with a country that weaponises trade as much as China.

I reckon that the government should get out of the business of trying to intervene between the Chinese government and our industries and let the businesses here and in China try and sort it out on a pure trading basis, ie you pay, we supply. If they can't do that then the best government can do imo is to try and find our suppliers new markets that operate on a non political basis, otherwise we will be jerked around forever.

Australia actually *exports* most of the red meat we produce, which means that we must import most of the red meat that Australian's consume. How stupid is that ? Satisfy the Australian market first and anything else is a bonus.


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## joeno (16 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> We must stand up to China





people like you need to stay away from the sensationalism Daily Telegraph quality bull. Read a book or something. Get a view of all sides. The stupidity going around with COVID is off the richter.

i would argue with more facts but im sure you'll hit back with the classic "baaaaaa commie bot".


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## chiff (16 May 2020)

I do not think China is a communist country.It may have started out with those intentions but now it is an autocracy that grows millionaires a plenty. There are differences but also common themes between US and China.


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## Humid (16 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems to me that it's impossible to have a sensible relationship with a country that weaponises trade as much as China.
> 
> I reckon that the government should get out of the business of trying to intervene between the Chinese government and our industries and let the businesses here and in China try and sort it out on a pure trading basis, ie you pay, we supply. If they can't do that then the best government can do imo is to try and find our suppliers new markets that operate on a non political basis, otherwise we will be jerked around forever.
> 
> Australia actually *exports* most of the red meat we produce, which means that we must import most of the red meat that Australian's consume. How stupid is that ? Satisfy the Australian market first and anything else is a bonus.




Can't say I've seen or bought imported beef
Not in WA anyway, surely it would risk the one reason
Aussie beef is so sought after


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## basilio (16 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems to me that it's impossible to have a sensible relationship with a country that weaponises trade as much as China.




*How about including  the US in that  statement ?*  As well of course as the UK ?

Historically and currently the US *absolutely* ties its political relationships with countries to how freely their  businesses are allowed to operate. The crux of the issue is that the US government has historically taken the view that if a country does not openly welcome, court and accept any US investment they are not friendly.

The political consequences range from political attacks on the government, financial attacks on the economy and if necessary covert overthrow of the countries government.

I bring this point up because the US, in particular, stands behind its companies as political power. Other countries  are more inclined to let governments deal with their  businesses without resorting to political pressure. But nonetheless the whole point of being a big political power is to strengthen your economic interests internationally through trade and investment.


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## SirRumpole (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> *How about including  the US in that  statement ?*  As well of course as the UK ?
> 
> Historically and currently the US *absolutely* ties its political relationships with countries to how freely their  businesses are allowed to operate. The crux of the issue is that the US government has historically taken the view that if a country does not openly welcome, court and accept any US investment they are not friendly.
> 
> ...




This is a thread about China bas, if you want to rant about the US start another thread.

Although you do have a point.


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## basilio (16 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> This is a thread about China bas, if you want to rant about the US start another thread.
> 
> Although you do have a point.




I don't want to  discuss the US and their obvious behaviour.

The point is wanting to stop our  economic relationship with China to be free of political pressure makes no sense in the overall context of international relations.

It's worth saying again. In a US dominated economic world we were all under pressure to conform to US foreign polices and to uncritically allow every US company the opportunity to  do what it wanted.

Is anyone aware of how difficult it was to start the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

Anyway the Government has already used the FIRB to stop and scrutinize every overseas attempt to buy Australian assets. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ctions-australian-assets-coronavirus/12101332


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## qldfrog (16 May 2020)

chiff said:


> I do not think China is a communist country.It may have started out with those intentions but now it is an autocracy that grows millionaires a plenty. There are differences but also common themes between US and China.



Of course not, it is an autocracy with wild capitalism liberating the best and worst of human ingenuity and entrepreneurship
When torrential rain came and flooded the access to Subway in Shenzhen, in 10 minutes you had people charging a few dollars to carry you on trolleys/their back if need be to allow you to access the platforms dry;  and the show goes on.
In Australia everything would be closed, chaos for 1/2 day, passengers stranded for hours.
Well this is what happens here in Brisbane
So raw capitalism with a dictatorship over the top


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## Smurf1976 (16 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we should be the smiling face to all other nations, selling our goods and services.




I'm not saying it's right or wrong morally but as a business model that has a lot in common with prostitution. Anything at a price so long as it's legal.

As any smart hooker works out real quick, Australia's aim should be to take a ruthless approach to the business, make money, invest that into something else and get the hell out of it.


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## SirRumpole (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> The point is wanting to stop our economic relationship with China to be free of political pressure makes no sense in the overall context of international relations.




Yes it does. The US and China have completely different political systems, which one would you rather live under ?

I don't want to be dominated by any other country, but where investment is required better the devil you know imo, and if there are a lot of US business interests here one would think they would be more likely to protect them militarily wouldn't one ?


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## basilio (16 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes it does. The US and China have completely different political systems, which one would you rather live under ?




How about* our own political system* which we freely elect and expect to be accountable to the Australian community. ?

Lets be clear about US interference in countries around the world including Australia. If the US doesn't approve of what your country is doing and in particular if, in any way, it impinges on the God given tights of US Free Enterprise corporations they reserve the right to undermine said government and install a more reliable partner.

They are particularly partial to strong military dictatorships that ensure businesses have no problems with unions.


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## Smurf1976 (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> How about* our own political system* which we freely elect and expect to be accountable to the Australian community. ?



Australia is far closer to the US system than it is to China's.

We don't directly elect a Prime Minister, unlike the US which does directly elect the President, but we do elect the MP's who form government.

You can publicly criticise government policy all you like and, with the exception of those employed in a directly related area, you are free to do so without suffering consequences.

Much the same in the US. Americans are free to criticise Trump and his policies if they wish.

In contrast Chinese don't say a word against the government indeed they don't even get to choose who's in it. 

The US is far from perfect and whilst better in my view, Australia also has flaws but at least we do collectively have the option to remove the government from power if we so choose.


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## Value Collector (16 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> We must stand up to China





No, we must stop watching sky and Fox News.


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## Value Collector (16 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm not saying it's right or wrong morally but as a business model that has a lot in common with prostitution. Anything at a price so long as it's legal.
> 
> As any smart hooker works out real quick, Australia's aim should be to take a ruthless approach to the business, make money, invest that into something else and get the hell out of it.




It has more in common with the local fish and chip shop.

eg. focus on making the best fish and chips and smile at your customers, don't get into political or religious debates with them, or try and lecture them on stuff, just sell them the fish and chips and smile while you collect the cash.


----------



## Value Collector (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> *How about including  the US in that  statement ?*  As well of course as the UK ?
> 
> Historically and currently the US *absolutely* ties its political relationships with countries to how freely their  businesses are allowed to operate. The crux of the issue is that the US government has historically taken the view that if a country does not openly welcome, court and accept any US investment they are not friendly.
> 
> ...




Yep, no one weaponises trade and finance more than the USA, not to mention no one weaponises actual weapons more than the USA. 

The USA is the biggest Spy, The biggest Invader and War monger, The biggest Financial and trade enforcer, The biggest Arms dealer, and has its own pandemics eg Swine and Spanish flu.

But because they are white, and smiley most of the time, we are fine with it.

But the big bad Asians are scary to some insecure people.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, no one weaponises trade and finance more than the USA, not to mention no one weaponises actual weapons more than the USA.
> 
> The USA is the biggest Spy, The biggest Invader and War monger, The biggest Financial and trade enforcer, The biggest Arms dealer, and has its own pandemics eg Swine and Spanish flu.




Yeah, but that's free enterprise for you.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes it does. The US and China have completely different political systems, which one would you rather live under ?
> 
> I don't want to be dominated by any other country, but where investment is required better the devil you know imo, and if there are a lot of US business interests here one would think they would be more likely to protect them militarily wouldn't one ?



I always remember watching a documentary on business dealings with Asia, the Australian custom of a handshake and your word, was a deal.
When dealing with parts of Asia, a deal is a deal, untill they arent winning, then apparently a new deal needs to be made.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, no one weaponises trade and finance more than the USA, not to mention no one weaponises actual weapons more than the USA.
> 
> The USA is the biggest Spy, The biggest Invader and War monger, The biggest Financial and trade enforcer, The biggest Arms dealer, and has its own pandemics eg Swine and Spanish flu.
> 
> ...



Yes lots that were in Asian POW camps, as opposed to U.K camps.
Not saying the same would apply now, but from historical accounts, the British looked after their POW's far better than their Asian counterparts.
Just because someone is paying your bills, doesnt mean they have your best interest at heart, it just means  you are a dependant.


----------



## Value Collector (16 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes lots that were in Asian POW camps, as opposed to U.K camps.
> Not saying the same would apply now, but from historical accounts, the British looked after their POW's far better than their Asian counterparts.
> Just because someone is paying your bills, doesnt mean they have your best interest at heart, it just means  you are a dependant.




And the Germans had death camps and bombed the crap out of London so Europeans are no better than the Asian
Examples you can think of, but  I am sure you don’t think that matter of ancient History should affect European trade today.

Also, just remember the USA then Nuked the Japanese,.... twice, but yeah those pow camp conditions though....


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> And the Germans had death camps and bombed the crap out of London so Europeans are no better than the Asian
> Examples you can think of, but  I am sure you don’t think that matter of ancient History should affect European trade today.
> 
> Also, just remember the USA then Nuked the Japanese,.... twice, but yeah those pow camp conditions though....



Well I was born in the U.K and have grown up in Australia, so I really cant talk for Germany, Asia, the U.S or anyone else.
But as you said, talking up other cultures or countries principles, doesnt really have the history to back it, but if you are dependent on their generosity I can undestand talking it up. Many are.


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well I was born in the U.K and have grown up in Australia, so I really cant talk for Germany, Asia, the U.S or anyone else.
> But as I said, talking up other cultures principles, doesnt really have the history to back it, but if you ard dependent on their generosity I can undestand talking it up. Many are.




Who is talking up other cultures principles?

I just saying let’s act like businessmen, smile at our customers and take their money. 

You don’t have to make moral judgements about every single person you want to sell a bottle of wine or a ship load of Iron Ore too.

If you try to you will find flaws in every customer you have, even Australia has issues,  and at the end of the day you can’t really change them foreign nations, So just do business, work on our own problems and lead by example.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Who is talking up other cultures principles?
> 
> I just saying let’s act like businessmen, smile at our customers and take their money.
> 
> ...



This all started about the premise we need to develop a more sustainable business model, if we want to maintain our living standard smiling and thanking our buyers, when they are removing our cheap resources, works fine untill the easily removed resources are gone.
I know it wont be a problem in my lifetime, but my 8th grandchild will be born tomorrow, I dont ghink our business model will be in his best interest.
Leading by example IMO, is developing a business model that isnt just based on digging holes and selling the dirt, eventually you run out of dirt.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Humid (17 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This all started about the premise we need to develop a more sustainable business model, if we want to maintain our living standard smiling and thanking our buyers, when they are removing our cheap resources, works fine untill the easily removed resources are gone.
> I know it wont be a problem in my lifetime, but my 8th grandchild will be born tomorrow, I dont ghink our business model will be in his best interest.
> Leading by example IMO, is developing a business model that isnt just based on digging holes and selling the dirt, eventually you run out of dirt.
> Just my opinion.




Hopefully your 8th grandchild gets to keep their franking credits since you and your choice of government have sold out their working conditions.......


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This all started about the premise we need to develop a more sustainable business model, if we want to maintain our living standard smiling and thanking our buyers, when they are removing our cheap resources, works fine untill the easily removed resources are gone.
> I know it wont be a problem in my lifetime, but my 8th grandchild will be born tomorrow, I dont ghink our business model will be in his best interest.
> Leading by example IMO, is developing a business model that isnt just based on digging holes and selling the dirt, eventually you run out of dirt.
> Just my opinion.




people are free to start any business they like, no one is stopping anyone making different types of products for exports.

we export all sorts of things already not just resources, but we have a very small population and we control a very large amount of the planets resources compared to the population we have.

It would be immoral not to market the resources to the rest of the world, and eventually very dangerous .


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> people are free to start any business they like, no one is stopping anyone making different types of products for exports.
> 
> we export all sorts of things already not just resources, but we have a very small population and we control a very large amount of the planets resources compared to the population we have.
> 
> It would be immoral not to market the resources to the rest of the world, and eventually very dangerous .




It would be nice if the taxpayer got more out of our resources (like an export tax), rather than the profits going to generally foreign shareholders (Exxon, Chevron etc).

Current royalties are a pittance, and the resources won't last forever.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Hopefully your 8th grandchild gets to keep their franking credits since you and your choice of government have sold out their working conditions.......



You need some rainex, to get rid of the rust.
It may be untill the grandson grows up, before your mob get in again, as for conditions it was your mob that raised the retirement age to 67, so don't make out they are some sort of protector of workers rights.lol
It is only the rusted on that believe the old chestnut, that Labor are in there for the worker, they are in there to get the perks same as most politicians. As has been proven across the globe, the workers are over Labor's BS, hopefully All can turn it around.
Anyway getting of thread somewhat.


----------



## Humid (17 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> You need some rainex, to get rid of the rust.
> It may be untill the grandson grows up, before your mob get in again, as for conditions it was your mob that raised the retirement age to 67, so don't make out they are some sort of protector of workers rights.lol
> It is only the rusted on that believe the old chestnut, that Labor are in there for the worker, they are in there to get the perks same as most politicians. As has been proven across the globe, the workers are over Labor's BS, hopefully All can turn it around.
> Anyway getting of thread somewhat.



 Geez that's some long bow
New born to retirement age lol
Just thought I'd get your blood flowing Sunday morning
Got a bit bored on nights keeping the economy running


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

> Current royalties are a pittance, and the resources won't last forever.




How much do you think the royalties are? your not going by the false info from the article sprawler was fooled by are you when he said Iron ore royalties were only $0.25



SirRumpole said:


> It would be nice if the taxpayer got more out of our resources (like an export tax), rather than the profits going to generally foreign shareholders (Exxon, Chevron etc).




Not sure what you mean by "It would be nice if the taxpayer got more out of our resources", because some of the largest taxpayers are the mining companies.

However, I think you really mean that you want the government/population to get more.

The fact is the government already gets a pretty large share of the value generated from mining when you add up all the ways in extracts cash at ever stage of the process.

Take Iron Ore for example

1, the government sells the exploration rights before we even know if there are any resources there, it charges income tax and Gst etc on all the wages of people involved in doing the exploring.

2, Once resources are found, before building the mine can start it charges a multitude fees, stamp duties, environmental levies etc  + income tax on all the people needed to carry out design, planning and many other studies.

3, Once construction of the mine and infrastructure begins many millions of dollars in taxes will be paid by high income workers during the construction phase from income tax, GST, Alcohol, airport taxes etc etc.

4, Then many years later after the first exploration rights were paid, and after the mining company has spent ship loads of money which a decent amount found its way to the government, Actual mining can start and then the government takes 7.5% of the total sale price of the Ore + 30% of the mining companies profits + 30% of the employee's wages + GST and other taxes on investors dividends when they hit the share holders earnings etc etc.

All these taxes have to be paid either directly or indirectly from the sale of the Ore,  when you add it all up over a mines life, a decent portion of the Ore sold goes to taxes already.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 May 2020)

> There is only one photograph in circulation of the Tibetan Gedhun Choekyi Niyima, one of the world's most famous "disappeared" persons. It is little more than a snapshot, taken when he was just six years old. It shows a boy with rosy cheeks and an impassive look on his face. That boy is now 31, and 17 May marks exactly 25 years since he and his family were disappeared by China, three days after *he was identified as the reincarnated Panchen Lama*, the second most important figure in Tibetan Buddhism.
> 
> Since he was taken, there has been no independent news on his fate.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52660198

Full marks for consistency, I s'pose. 
.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> How much do you think the royalties are? your not going by the false info from the article sprawler was fooled by are you when he said Iron ore royalties were only $0.25
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exxon reported as Australia's biggest tax dodger.

http://autotalk.com.au/industry-news/exxon-reported-australias-top-tax-dodger


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Hopefully your 8th grandchild gets to keep their franking credits since you and your choice of government have sold out their working conditions.......



Given that every government since 1975 has done that, I don't see that any ordinary voter really made a choice in the matter.

It's not as though there was any point in time where a party that wasn't Labor or the Coalition had a realistic chance of governing and both have taken us down the same track of a race to the bottom which has brought us to the point of competing with, and relying on, China in particular.


----------



## Humid (17 May 2020)

You should of got out of the powerhouse and tried working construction under Liberal governments
Like the Perth to Mandurah train line as one example


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Exxon reported as Australia's biggest tax dodger.
> 
> http://autotalk.com.au/industry-news/exxon-reported-australias-top-tax-dodger




Cool, so bust the tax dodger and strip them of their leases if they don't comply, don't just bring in a new tax on all the people doing the right thing.


----------



## hja (17 May 2020)

https://www.sydneytoday.com/content-102020738888004

"Beijing will not call back!" Australia wanted to discuss a settlement of the trade dispute, but China did not respond! Trade Minister: *Australian companies may focus on other markets.*

Australian Trade Minister Simon Birmingham said the federal government has submitted a large amount of evidence to China that Australia has not dumped barley against China. The federal government hopes to discuss the matter, but China has not responded.

The Sydney Morning Herald reported that Minister Birmingham tried to communicate with the Chinese side by phone to resolve the increasingly serious trade dispute between the two countries, but so far no response has been received from the other side.

In an interview on Sunday morning, Birmingham stated that the federal government has responded comprehensively to the "dumping barley" proposed by China, providing more than 10,000 pages of information and evidence.

Birmingham said: "These evidences clearly show that Australian barley producers, like other farmers, do not need government subsidies at all. Australia is one of the most productive and efficient countries in the world, and ours can provide highly competitive barley."

"We have proposed to discuss with China on this matter, but as of now, the other party has not made any response. What I want to say is that the Australian government has always been willing to engage in constructive dialogue with other countries, including incidents where our views are inconsistent.

Birmingham admits that so far, he has not received a direct response from the Chinese side, but Australian officials are still engaged in government-level "talks" with the Chinese side.

Birmingham pointed out that China is an important trading partner of Australia and most countries in the Asia-Pacific region, as well as Australia's largest trading partner. "This is why we value contact with China and are determined to provide Australian farmers and exporters with access to the Chinese market. The trade volume between China and Australia has continued to grow in recent years.

Birmingham also said in an interview that, due to the recent trade dispute between the two countries, Australian companies may turn their attention to other countries. "I anticipate that after experiencing some unpredictable regulatory intervention, *many Australian companies will comprehensively consider risk issues and turn their attention to other markets*."


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 May 2020)

Brace, brace, brace


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Brace, brace, brace



Yes I think a hard landing is imminent.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2020)

Humid said:


> You should of got out of the powerhouse and tried working construction under Liberal governments
> Like the Perth to Mandurah train line as one example




I don't know about that train line specifically but power and rail are two classic examples of where Australia has gone wrong. Both have been stuffed up basically although power arguably more so - it has after all played at least some role in the downfall of the past 4 PM's and may well claim more if they can't get it right.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Not sure what you mean by "It would be nice if the taxpayer got more out of our resources", because some of the largest taxpayers are the mining companies.




The issue with the mining industry could be compared to someone who throws in their university studies or trade license because they make a go of it in pop music or modeling.

Australia had a viable economy without the dominance of mineral exports, it wasn't zero but it wasn't the mainstay, but once mining ramped up it brought about the demise of most of what existed beforehand.

As iron ore grew larger, that was the end of building new factories in Australia. Governments lost interest in manufacturing since government had a source of revenue from the mines.

As coal exports grew that brought with it the closure of much manufacturing, a trend which accelerated as gas exports began and then ramped up. Not only did governments no longer need the money, the mineral exports held the AUD high and killed off the competitiveness of other industry.

Where the concern lies going forward is akin to the pop singer or model. You don't need to be an expert in music or fashion to know that most careers are over pretty quickly and that the chance of making a lifetime career out of pop music or fashion is not zero but it's extremely slim.

By all means grab the money while it's there, nothing wrong with that, but the rational approach is to leverage that into something more sustainable be it via business, education, financial investments or whatever. The idea of relying on it to last and that the whole country finds itself in a position akin to the has-been pop singer with no plan B is alarming to say the least.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> It has more in common with the local fish and chip shop.




Using that analogy, go back to the 1980's and take away shops were everywhere but have been declining ever since and most of them are gone today.

They all looked much the same with their ubiquitous row of flashing light bulbs, Coca Cola signs and usually tobacco advertising but are a far less common sight in the suburbs than they used to be: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtAM-RKU8AICTVY?format=jpg&name=small

Not a good business model for the country going forward really. A smart person back then would have sold the chip shop before McDonald's spread beyond the cities and before government stopped the tobacco companies paying $$$ to advertise anywhere they could and instead become a major player in gyms or something like that which has grown massively since then.


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue with the mining industry could be compared to someone who throws in their university studies or trade license because they make a go of it in pop music or modeling.
> 
> Australia had a viable economy without the dominance of mineral exports, it wasn't zero but it wasn't the mainstay, but once mining ramped up it brought about the demise of most of what existed beforehand.
> 
> ...




the factories were going to die even if we didn’t mine, they didn’t die because of mining.


----------



## Value Collector (17 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Using that analogy, go back to the 1980's and take away shops were everywhere but have been declining ever since and most of them are gone today.
> 
> They all looked much the same with their ubiquitous row of flashing light bulbs, Coca Cola signs and usually tobacco advertising but are a far less common sight in the suburbs than they used to be: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtAM-RKU8AICTVY?format=jpg&name=small
> 
> Not a good business model for the country going forward really. A smart person back then would have sold the chip shop before McDonald's spread beyond the cities and before government stopped the tobacco companies paying $$$ to advertise anywhere they could and instead become a major player in gyms or something like that which has grown massively since then.




There are a lot more take away shops today than there were in the 80’s, and a lot more take away meals served each day.


----------



## joeno (18 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Australia is far closer to the US system than it is to China's.
> 
> We don't directly elect a Prime Minister, unlike the US which does directly elect the President, but we do elect the MP's who form government.
> 
> ...




nah you're wrong

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China

"The number of annual protests has grown steadily since the early 1990s, from approximately 8700 "mass group incidents" in 1993[1] to over 87,000 in 2005."

I don't like the Chinese government and their policies. Not because internal "human rights" but because they clearly serve American interests.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> the factories were going to die even if we didn’t mine, they didn’t die because of mining.



They sure did die because of the high AUD and lack of government need to keep them running.

Cut mining royalties to zero and government would have no choice other than to make manufacturing a goer.

Same happens in most countries with resources. It allows a lazy approach and leads to poor governance since the government itself can survive just fine without needing the creative and intellectual parts of the economy to thrive.

It's essentially the same concept as those with inherited wealth typically don't excel in any normal profession as they simply have no perceived need to do so. Hence the old rule of thumb that the first generation starts the business, the second makes it big and the third blows the money.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> There are a lot more take away shops today than there were in the 80’s, and a lot more take away meals served each day.



Not anywhere I've been there aren't.

Remove all the chain franchises which only sell their own branded products and those which are restaurants as such or which are Indian, Chinese, Japanese etc and there's far less than there used to be just selling fish & chips.

Where I used to live many years ago you could stand in one spot and there were 2 of them within sight and just down the road was a chicken & chips place. The whole lot are gone now and in their place is a bakery cafe, a noodle take away place, a Mexican food place, a sandwich shop, McDonald's, KFC and Domino's pizza for food meanwhile the convenience store aspect of it is covered by Coles trading 7 days a week and the service station having swapped the workshop for a convenience store open 24/7.

Same in the area I lived immediately before this one. Like a lot of places there were two fish & chip shops, one on each side of the road. One's still there but the other one closed down, sat empty for quite a while, briefly emerged as a cafe and I see it's now an Italian restaurant of sorts.

Same everywhere. The big fast food chains and things like noodles, Mexican etc have grown, service stations have swapped workshops for convenience stores and are open extremely long hours but actual fish & chip shops aren't anywhere near as common as they used to be. They still exist but not as common as they once were. 

Anyone who thinks the world will never stop wanting ever increasing amounts of Australia's coal and gas is in much the same position as someone circa 1985 in the fish & chip business who ignored the growth of franchised fast food and convenience stores in my view. Change happens and there's quite a few reasons to think that coal and gas aren't where it's going to be at in 2050.


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not anywhere I've been there aren't.
> 
> Remove all the chain franchises which only sell their own branded products and those which are restaurants as such or which are Indian, Chinese, Japanese etc and there's far less than there used to be just selling fish & chips.
> 
> ...




Nah but most will be where the coal and gas come from....


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No, we must stop watching sky and Fox News.



You might, but Australia will not kowtow to bullies.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not anywhere I've been there aren't.
> 
> Remove all the chain franchises which only sell their own branded products and those which are restaurants as such or which are Indian, Chinese, Japanese etc and there's far less than there used to be just selling fish & chips.
> 
> ...




why wouldn’t you count the chain stores? Not counting them is an appeal to nostalgia rather than to economics.

In 1986 my home town had 

2 x fish and chips
1 x chicken shop
1 x Bakery
1 x Chinese takeaway

today with in 3 kms of my child hood home there are 

2 x fish and chips
1 x chicken shop
5 x bakeries
2 x Chinese take away
6 x sushi shops
3 x Thai takeaway
2 x Indian takeaway
5 x McDonald’s 
2 x Hungry Jacks
2 x Subway
2 x Dominoes Pizza
3 x KFC 
2 x donut shops

Also countless others I have missed, plus new pubs, clubs, cafes and restaurants.

Just because they aren’t the old fashioned type with the Coca Cola signs doesn’t mean the take away industry has shrunk, it it selling more meals than ever, employing more people than ever, and producing more profits than ever.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> You might, but Australia will not kowtow to bullies.




China probably sees itself as the one being bullied because of the abuse it is getting from others.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

What happened to the Milk Bars, that's what I want to know.


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> why wouldn’t you count the chain stores? Not counting them is an appeal to nostalgia rather than to economics.
> 
> In 1986 my home town had
> 
> ...




No vegetarian lol


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> China probably sees itself as the one being bullied because of the abuse it is getting from others.




BWhaaa, a billion people being bullied by li'l old Australia, come on.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> What happened to the Milk Bars, that's what I want to know.



The Milky Bar Kid bought them all hoping to corner the milk bar market. But there just was not enough Aussies buying milk. So he tried to dump the excess Milk Bars cheaply to China. But the Chinese saw that Australia was trying to dump cheap Milk Bars on their market and complained to the WTO using anti-dumping laws. The WTO could not make up their mind and so China threatened Australia that they would cut off their oxygen supply (in a bold move in 2020, whilst the West was weak, China had claimed all the rights to the air above 1 m around the world by claiming it was historically part of China), if they did not stop dumping. The result was that the Milky Bar Kid went bankrupt and went "off" after staying too long in Kevin Rudds, porch fridge (which was only working intermittently), at his Noosa retreat.


----------



## qldfrog (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> why wouldn’t you count the chain stores? Not counting them is an appeal to nostalgia rather than to economics.
> 
> In 1986 my home town had
> 
> ...



As would taking population into account, i am sure VC your town suburb population is much higher, and it could be nostagia count are related to dying towns


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Humid said:


> No vegetarian lol




sure there is,

You can get vegetarian options at pretty much everything I listed there.

For example,

Dominoes pizza Has a full vegan menu.

Hungry Jacks has two Vegan Burgers.

Sushi shops have Vegan Sushi.

Macdonalds sells a Vegie Burger, but Also their Fries are Vegan.

Subway has Vegan Options.

KFC  chips are vegan

Chinese shops can make vegan And vegetarian options.

thai and Indian have heaps of options.

fish and chip shops without ordering fish 

—————-
you can get inventive, on road trips I have ordered McDonald’s hamburgers without the patty (you save a $1) and added extra mustard, onions, pickles and ketchup, and then I add fries to to.

It’s the best chip sandwich ever, hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> As would taking population into account, i am sure VC your town suburb population is much higher, and it could be nostagia count are related to dying towns




yep population is huge now in comparison, but ofcourse a dying town will have less shops of all types.


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> yep population is huge now in comparison, but ofcourse a dying town will have less shops of all types.




Surely it’s a City to have that many Crapdonalds


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> you can get inventive, on road trips I have ordered McDonald’s hamburgers without the patty (you save a $1) and added extra mustard, onions, pickles and ketchup, and then I add fries to to.
> 
> It’s the best chip sandwich ever, hahaha.




Very creative.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> ketchup,




That's tomato sauce mate, or do you use imported American stuff ?


----------



## hja (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> What happened to the Milk Bars, that's what I want to know.



They got hipsterised by the almond, lactose-free, coconut milk, lite milk, soy sauce, soy milk, decaffeinated beverage imbibing and smooshed-avocado open sandwich consuming trend-setters.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Hopefully your 8th grandchild gets to keep their franking credits since you and your choice of government have sold out their working conditions.......



Wasn't it you that suggested people start enjoying their money, and stop worrying about other peoples money? It must have been a long night shift.


----------



## chiff (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> BWhaaa, a billion people being bullied by li'l old Australia, come on.



What happened was Morrison had just got off a phone call to Trump.Then Morrison called for an enquiry.My guess is that China sees Australia doing the barking for the US,as well as being undiplomatic and rude.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Time to consider new markets says Birmingham, China is getting risky.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...h-china-may-drive-businesses-to-other-markets


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That's tomato sauce mate, or do you use imported American stuff ?




Ketchup and Tomato sauce are slightly different, Ketchup has vinegar in it, at McDonald’s they have Ketchup.

The Heinz Ketchup I use at home comes from New Zealand.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Surely it’s a City to have that many Crapdonalds




it’s a Suburb about 30kms Out of Brisbane.

1 McDonald’s is in the centre of the old part of town,

1 is in a shopping centre In the newer part of town.

1 is on main road in front of that shopping centre.

1 is near the freeway off ramp

and the 5th one is in the industrial zone across from a bunnings at the other end of town.


----------



## moXJO (18 May 2020)

An investigation is a waste of time. What are they hoping to find after this long?
What person in their right mind would give any other evidence then what the government told them to give, if they risked jail for their families and themselves.
Most evidence would have been scrubbed by now.


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Wasn't it you that suggested people start enjoying their money, and stop worrying about other peoples money? It must have been a long night shift.



Never stop fighting for our pay and condition s
Hopefully your grandkids benefit from it
Just remember them Centrelink lines at the first sign of trouble
Everyone living week to week in your pox gig economy


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That's tomato sauce mate, or do you use imported American stuff ?



Rosella or nothing at my cave


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> An investigation is a waste of time. What are they hoping to find after this long?
> What person in their right mind would give any other evidence then what the government told them to give, if they risked jail for their families and themselves.
> Most evidence would have been scrubbed by now.



As you say an investigation will find nothing now, but it has brought tensions to a head, which in turn brings the focus on our dependence on China.
I'm sure this will all calm down, but some expensive and costly decisions will be required and getting everyone on the same page is the first requirement.
In reality China will have to slow its growth trajectory and make it more inwardly focused, while Countries like Australia, NZ, The U.S and U.K will have to re invent their manufacturing base, it is all just part of life's rich tapestry IMO.
Just my pondering.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Never stop fighting for our pay and condition s
> Hopefully your grandkids benefit from it
> Just remember them Centrelink lines at the first sign of trouble
> Everyone living week to week in your pox gig economy



I think this may be the catalyst for a different Australia, which will be better for all of us IMO, a bit of a back to the future.
There never is gain without some pain, these days.
By the way grand son born at 7pm, all good, huge kid.


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think this may be the catalyst for a different Australia, which will be better for all of us IMO, a bit of a back to the future.
> There never is gain without some pain, these days.
> By the way grand son born at 7pm, all good, huge kid.



Congratulations good news in strange times
Fly home this morning
I'll get drunk for you


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think this may be the catalyst for a different Australia, which will be better for all of us IMO, a bit of a back to the future.
> There never is gain without some pain, these days.
> By the way grand son born at 7pm, all good, huge kid.




Another one that you have to buy presents for !

Congratulations I wish everyone the best.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> eg. focus on making the best fish and chips and smile at your customers, don't get into political or religious debates with them, or try and lecture them on stuff, just sell them the fish and chips and smile while you collect the cash.




And when they want to build a missile base in Cairns, keep smiling.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Another one that you have to buy presents for !
> 
> Congratulations I wish everyone the best.



Yes it gets expensive, the missus buys them a coin from the mint, for their birthdays and christmas.
The kids when they were young used to have a unhappy look on their face, now the older ones are in their teens their eyes light up when they look at their stash of bullion, they had to buy a safe to store the coins.
So it will be down to the mint today, to buy the baby coin set for the new one.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> And when they want to build a missile base in Cairns, keep smiling.




So far the only people who have requested that are our smiley American friends.

however in a world of free trade, open markets, good diplomacy and mobile populations weapons are largely out dated artifacts, Only useful on the ideological fanatics that don’t want to be part of the markets.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think this may be the catalyst for a different Australia, which will be better for all of us IMO, a bit of a back to the future.
> There never is gain without some pain, these days.
> By the way grand son born at 7pm, all good, huge kid.



Congratulations. Hope you get to cuddle him soon.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Only useful on the ideological fanatics that don’t want to be part of the markets.




You mean the Chinese ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Rosella or nothing at my cave




after traveling in the USA, Australian tomato sauce just seems to weak and watery, I like that ketchup Iliad a bit more tang and is thicker.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> And when they want to build a missile base in Cairns, keep smiling.



Funny, but unfortunately could be true, if we don't do something now.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> after traveling in the USA, Australian tomato sauce just seems to weak and watery, I like that ketchup Iliad a bit more tang and is thicker.




So buy Aussie sauce, Aussie cornflower and Aussie vinegar and mix them.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You mean the Chinese ?




not at all, they are super traders, I mean the religious fanatics such as Isis. 

sure China has internal problems, they are relatively new to the game, slowly they are improving, playing the game.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So buy Aussie sauce, Aussie cornflower and Aussie vinegar and mix them.



I think I will just buy the Ketchup, hahaha.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> not at all, they are super traders, I mean the religious fanatics such as Isis.
> 
> sure China has internal problems, they are relatively new to the game, slowly they are improving, playing the game.










The Chinese government reports expenditure information annually. In March 2019, China’s Ministry of Finance announced a yearly budget of 1.19 trillion yuan ($177.5 billion),1 marking a 7.5 percent2 increase from the 2018 budget of 1.11 trillion yuan ($167.4 billion).3 This follows a recent trend that has seen yearly percent increases in spending fall to single digits.

https://chinapower.csis.org/military-spending/


----------



## explod (18 May 2020)

And we are wasting 60 billion on what will be useless submarines. Be better to build a northern China wall lol.

We need China's trade, met many Chinese people settled here in Australia and they also love our universities. Have a grandson and a nephew married now to Chinese girls they met at uni and with children now. 

What's the US got to offer, about ziltch these days. China out of necessity is coming round gradually to the wishes of the people who are becoming more informed due to expanding communication networks. Maybe I'm a bit in dreamworld but just my rough observation views.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

explod said:


> And we are wasting 60 billion on what will be useless submarines. Be better to build a northern China wall lol.



Build the Wall, Build the Wall, Build the Wall
Make Australia Great Again !


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The Chinese government reports expenditure information annually. In March 2019, China’s Ministry of Finance announced a yearly budget of 1.19 trillion yuan ($177.5 billion),1 marking a 7.5 percent2 increase from the 2018 budget of 1.11 trillion yuan ($167.4 billion).3 This follows a recent trend that has seen yearly percent increases in spending fall to single digits.
> 
> https://chinapower.csis.org/military-spending/




Yep, next to nothing compared to the USA.

The USA spent $1.5 Trillion in Afghanistan Alone.

For comparison China’s military spending is less than the value of the iPhones they export each year.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, next to nothing compared to the USA.
> 
> The USA spent $1.5 Trillion in Afghanistan Alone.
> 
> For comparison China’s military spending is less than the value of the iPhones they export each year.




You are aware of the concept of exponential growth ?

The iPhone reference is irrelevant, they can't fire missiles.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You are aware of the concept of exponential growth ?
> 
> The iPhone reference is irrelevant, they can't fire missiles.




the iPhone example is just to show how small that amount of money is in the big picture, as I also showed it’s nothing compared to the USA, who has actually deployed troops into multiple wars over that time frame.

Is there any major country with a large military who’s budget hasn’t grown at a similar rate over that time?

also China has had a lot of catchup to do, and unlike the USA their military has quite large domestic roles, they aren’t invading countries around the globe every 10 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> also China has had a lot of catchup to do, and unlike the USA their military has quite large domestic roles, they aren’t invading countries around the globe every 10 years.




Tell that to Tibet.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Tell that to Tibet.




A nice peaceful country, no mad dictators, no terrorists , China just wanted it.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 May 2020)

Now this may just b e a coincidence, and may not have any implications, but ..... in conversation with Bunnings about availability of stock imported from you know where, just lately some orders are not being filled, some shipments en route have been 'turned around' and sent to another country/ destination. 

It's probably nothing, as the Australian Standard would be a specification, but why would this happen? And to what degree? For sure, the supply lines have been disrupted in 2020.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> A nice peaceful country, no mad dictators, no terrorists , China just wanted it.




A bit like Hawaii, the USA just wanted it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> A bit like Hawaii, the USA just wanted it.



The Hawaiians voted to become a US state, I don't think Tibetans have had that opportunity.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The Hawaiians voted to become a US state, I don't think Tibetans have had that opportunity.




they voted to become a state in 1959, they were annexed by force 63 years earlier in 1897 and became a US territory, 

Not to mention the USA also took large parts of Mexico by force, for example The land where Disneyland and the city of LA sit was part of Mexico, hence why Los Angeles is a Spanish name.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they voted to become a state in 1959, they were annexed by force 63 years earlier in 1897 and became a US territory,
> 
> Not to mention the USA also took large parts of Mexico by force, for example The land where Disneyland and the city of LA sit was part of Mexico, hence why Los Angeles is a Spanish name.



this is getting very selective.

(PS there's a town in nth California named Russian River.)


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they voted to become a state in 1959, they were annexed by force 63 years earlier in 1897 and became a US territory,
> 
> Not to mention the USA also took large parts of Mexico by force, for example The land where Disneyland and the city of LA sit was part of Mexico, hence why Los Angeles is a Spanish name.




Well, you would expect the human race to have evolved in 200 years, but we still have big countries taking over little countries for no good reason.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they voted to become a state in 1959, they were annexed by force 63 years earlier in 1897 and became a US territory,
> 
> Not to mention the USA also took large parts of Mexico by force, for example The land where Disneyland and the city of LA sit was part of Mexico, hence why Los Angeles is a Spanish name.



Italy took large parts of the U.K.
The U.K gave HK back to China.
China is encroaching into the South China Sea.
NZ is taking over Australia, by stealth, networking and one scaffold plank at a time.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> this is getting very selective.
> 
> (PS there's a town in nth California named Russian River.)




Los Angeles was actually part of Mexico though, and the USA and Mexico Actually went to war, I don’t think Russia actually owned what ever town you are talking about.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, you would expect the human race to have evolved in 200 years, but we still have big countries taking over little countries for no good reason.




Well they probably feel they have a good reason, I don’t know the history of Tibet well.

but as I said China isn’t perfect, not country is, but they are fine as a trading partner, and they are talking good steps forward, even if they step on their dick some times, The trend is in the right direction, it’s just slow, big changes will be generational.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> this is getting very selective.
> 
> (PS there's a town in nth California named Russian River.)




this video shows how much of the East coast of what is now the USA was owned by Mexico before the USA/ Mexico war.

Mexico didn’t used to be south of the border, they were west of the border.


----------



## hja (18 May 2020)

And much of the present day USA was New France. What's the point?


----------



## Humid (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> after traveling in the USA, Australian tomato sauce just seems to weak and watery, I like that ketchup Iliad a bit more tang and is thicker.




craving meat


----------



## PZ99 (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Italy took large parts of the U.K.
> The U.K gave HK back to China.
> China is encroaching into the South China Sea.
> NZ is taking over Australia, by stealth, networking and one scaffold plank at a time.



If I had a choice of NZ (cranes) or China (cladding) I'll take NZ.. We're scaf*folded* either way.

However China is already encroaching into our land in Antarctica so I guess that choice is gone.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> why wouldn’t you count the chain stores? Not counting them is an appeal to nostalgia rather than to economics.



Bearing in mind I'm using it as an analogy, it's an appeal to the reality that very rarely did the owner of a generic take away shop complete with its Coke sign and so on make a successful transition. Few if any of those shops took down the sign which said "TAKE AWAY", scraped the tobacco company advertising off the windows and put up a new sign saying "McDonald's" and continued in business.

In reality those who invested heavily in such shops mostly ended up looking for the least bad exit. Reality though was that usually involved some other use of the building, the business itself not being worth overly much for those who failed to see the warning signs and hung around too long.

Milk bars and generic take away shops selling deep fried everything were just one of many possible examples I could have used.

Newsagents today are going down that track. Anyone who can't see that the business model is losing its relevance must be blind. It has the same basic problem - a move away from the core product meanwhile there's more competitors selling everything else.

Then there's things like careers in professional sports or modeling, pop music or even politics. The odd one makes a long term career out of it but for most it's a relatively brief thing even if they do "make it" for a time.

And so on. There's countless examples of the concept but point is we're living in a world where relying on something to last forever, or even just the ~40 years of someone's working life, is a huge gamble and that pace of change is accelerating it's not slowing down.

Now, is anyone going to seriously tell me that selling two basic product lines, that is raw materials for steel production and fuel for power stations, and having over a third of all exports going to one country is a sure thing with no chance of ending?

The writing's already on the wall for both with a greater emphasis on steel recycling and a push to use heat from sources other than coal in production. Meanwhile when it comes to power generation well there's a push against fossil fuels there to the extent of having an international agreement regarding climate change. And those risks are without even mentioning China itself.

The notion that Australia's even slightly concerned about economic retaliation from China is of itself evidence that we've got a problem. When a dependency starts intruding on decision making and you're under pressure to do things you otherwise wouldn't, that's a sure sign it's getting out of hand.

I don't hate China but we're being fools in relying on them to keep increasing their use and imports of coal, gas and iron ore indefinitely. At some point it's going to end and in my view we'd be wise to bear that in mind. That doesn't mean don't sell coal to China just as nobody would sensibly say that someone shouldn't pursue success in sports or music but it does mean having a definite plan for when it ends. A plan that doesn't involve prayers, groveling or ending up broke.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

Humid said:


> craving meat




Not at all, I actually switched to ketchup 4 years before I became vegan. 

if you haven’t already, you should try it.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Bearing in mind I'm using it as an analogy, it's an appeal to the reality that very rarely did the owner of a generic take away shop complete with its Coke sign and so on make a successful transition. Few if any of those shops took down the sign which said "TAKE AWAY", scraped the tobacco company advertising off the windows and put up a new sign saying "McDonald's" and continued in business.
> 
> In reality those who invested heavily in such shops mostly ended up looking for the least bad exit. Reality though was that usually involved some other use of the building, the business itself not being worth overly much for those who failed to see the warning signs and hung around too long.
> 
> ...




times change, people’s wants change.

the key is knowing when it makes sense to inject capital to grow or sustain a business, and when to drain every dollop of profit out and put it into another business. 

Just because you own a business that is on a down trend over the next 10 years doesn’t mean to have to personally be on a down trend.

I mean, this is just an analogy too, but a milk bar owner could have been reinvesting his profits back into McDonald’s shares for the last 10 years of his business down trend.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

hja said:


> And much of the present day USA was New France. What's the point?




well the USA purchased that part off the French, but still had to kill off the inhabitants.

the point is, (if you are following the conversation), China’s annexation of Tibet is not new thing, The USA for example was built by a series of annexations of others people’s land.


----------



## hja (19 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> well the USA purchased that part off the French, but still had to kill off the inhabitants.
> 
> the point is, (if you are following the conversation), China’s annexation of Tibet is not new thing, The USA for example was built by a series of annexations of others people’s land.



Well just about every reasonably powerful nation has done this, in the history of the world. China is (was) made up of so many disparate cultures and languages. An outsider mightn't think so with China's ability to create a virtual monocultural state.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

hja said:


> Well just about every reasonably powerful nation has done this, in the history of the world. .




Thank you for restating my original point.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2020)

With China basically boycotting our barley and potentially other agricultural crops it seems a good opportunity to set up ethanol processing plants to take the surplus.

Barley wheat, sugar cane, basically any plants can be used for ethanol which can reduce our needs for imported fuels. If the markets don't want our products as foods, no reason we can't use them for fuel.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2020)

hja said:


> Well just about every reasonably powerful nation has done this, in the history of the world. China is (was) made up of so many disparate cultures and languages. An outsider mightn't think so with China's ability to create a virtual monocultural state.




So where does it end ? If China decides to invade Taiwan do we all accept it ? Then Japan or Korea perhaps ?


----------



## hja (19 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So where does it end ? If China decides to invade Taiwan do we all accept it ? Then Japan or Korea perhaps ?



Japan/Korea - World war? But for Taiwan, it's all arbitrary. It depends how much is at stake for the onlookers, possible sanctions and for China's image, as with Hong Kong.


----------



## chiff (19 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So where does it end ? If China decides to invade Taiwan do we all accept it ? Then Japan or Korea perhaps ?



The west ,for political reasons,may say Taiwan is separate country,but China says it is a breakaway province.What does the history show?


----------



## chiff (19 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So where does it end ? If China decides to invade Taiwan do we all accept it ? Then Japan or Korea perhaps ?



China ,so far, has used different tactics-different to the blunt instrument that the US uses.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

China can take out Taiwan by force if it wants to. The US has admitted that it will be unable to defend a military takeover.
However the world would be very angry with China if they tried. Consequent economic sanctions could  cause China to self destruct.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

Australia had a win over China in the sanctioning of an investigation of the China Virus, but of course China would not admit it.
Build the wall. MAGA


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I mean, this is just an analogy too, but a milk bar owner could have been reinvesting his profits back into McDonald’s shares for the last 10 years of his business down trend.



Indeed and that is my point.

At a national level, use the iron, coal and gas to get into something with a longer term future both in terms of the industry itself and the customer base rather than waiting for the world to dump coal or China to change iron ore suppliers.

At present, we’re akin to the milk bar owner flatly denying that McDonald’s is anything more than a passing fad.

Keep digging for coal etc in the short term sure but the writing’s on the wall for coal as a whole and likewise with iron there’s longer term competition from others so we need to be getting into something else. We need a definite plan other than trying to stop the inevitable or  pretending it won’t happen.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

If Taiwan falls then Australia is next.


----------



## chiff (19 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> If Taiwan falls then Australia is next.
> 
> View attachment 103602



If Vietnam goes communist Australia will fall to communism-domino effect?


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

chiff said:


> If Vietnam goes communist Australia will fall to communism-domino effect?



Who knows considering how ruthless China is in its desire to rule the world.


----------



## againsthegrain (19 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Who knows considering how ruthless China is in its desire to rule the world.




I don't think China is as "tough" as they want the world to believe.

yes
1.  they have massive amounts of weapons
2.  alot of human "meat"  soldiers

However
1. The quality of their equipment is questionable
2. The experience of their troops is also questionable,  when is the last time China fought a land+sea conflict?  (USA does it on annual basis)
3. What is the motivation of the young, almost teenage soldiers under the ccp? They might be willing to die on home soil but on enemy territory?

It kind of reminds me of the Russian invasion of Grozny in Chechnia, where young inexperienced soldiers who never saw battle were sent in with tanks and military equipment and slaughtered by partisans defending their land



> The initial assault resulted in very high Russian Army casualties and an almost complete breakdown of morale in the Russian forces. It took them another two months of heavy fighting, and a change in their tactics, before they were able to capture Grozny




I don't believe China has the balls for a military conflict and the best hand they got and they are best at economic warfare

Lets please stop these scare tactics what if what if,  No Chinese soldier will ever set foot in Aus uninvited


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

againsthegrain said:


> I don't think China is as "tough" as they want the world to believe.
> 
> yes
> 1.  they have massive amounts of weapons
> ...



I think you are right with your assumptions, China technologically will be way behind the U.S, U.K and Germany, there is no way any of their really high tech stuff would be built in China.
Also a major war is a no win for anyone really, it is obvious that the Worlds resources are finite and that is now a recognised fact, so the wastage associated with a major war doesn't make sense.
China has benefitted most from a peaceful world and a world with growing affluence, the problem is Trump wants to slow their growth trajectory, China doesn't.
But common sense will prevail IMO, there is no point China putting everyone out of business, then they will have no one to sell their junk to.
The virus has really been a catalyst to bring the whole issue to a head, which probably needed doing IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Indeed and that is my point.
> 
> At a national level, use the iron, coal and gas to get into something with a longer term future both in terms of the industry itself and the customer base rather than waiting for the world to dump coal or China to change iron ore suppliers.
> 
> ...




some of the resources may be obsolete in 20 years, so we need to exploit while they are profitable.

But, I didn’t actually say we should just mine and let every other industry die.

I said we should focus on what we are good at and what we have natural advantages in.

Mining just happens to be one of those, others include farming certain crops, Wine making, Tourism, Education and countless others.

At the moment and probably for 200 years mining will be a great place to deploy capital, much better than a steel mill.

but there are also plenty of other places to deploy capital once the resources production peaks before we have to reach for the industries we a no good at.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

againsthegrain said:


> I don't think China is as "tough" as they want the world to believe.
> 
> yes
> 1.  they have massive amounts of weapons
> ...




Neither China or the USA have a snowball’s chance in Hell at occupying each other’s homeland, so neither will invade the other.

A Cold War is possible, but that’s it, but that is in neither sides interest.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Who knows considering how ruthless China is in its desire to rule the world.



I won't claim to know that one but something I worked out long ago is that when someone says "it's all about money" they are usually wrong.

In practice it's about money only for someone seeking a very specific goal which can be purchased. Beyond that, the aims are either success for the sake of success or the big one - power as a means of control.

Artists and scientists seek success for the sake of success and the rest of us benefit from them doing so or at the least suffer no harm. If they happen to make some money out of it then that's fine with me.

Individuals seek money in order to cease working, take an around the world trip or whatever or in some cases in order to spend it helping others.

Power's the big game though. The ability to control physical and or human resources without needing to convince anyone else as to the merits of your intentions. That's the one which drives pretty much anything where the goal is either not immediately apparent or is perceived as being money.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> At the moment and probably for 200 years mining will be a great place to deploy capital, much better than a steel mill.
> 
> but there are also plenty of other places to deploy capital once the resources production peaks before we have to reach for the industries we a no good at.




Based on recent trends we've got far less than 200 years.

Continuing as we are is essentially a bet that climate change and action regarding it is a hoax, there are no further pandemics, wars etc and that China's simply bluffing with this trade fuss and won't really put a tariff on anything.

Time will tell but if they actually do put tariffs on well there's the signal to be getting away from reliance on them.

Where this all goes is likely to have a significant influence over government policy and what sort of companies do well in Australia so it's of direct relevance to investors (though not really to short term traders etc).


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Based on recent trends we've got far less than 200 years.




For some resources, but for others we probably have more than 200 years, don't fall into the trap of thinking that because we haven't found it yet it isn't there, otherwise the USA would not be the biggest Oil producer at the moment, Because they were meant to run out of Oil by 1995 if you believe the reserves figures from the 1970's.

BHP, FMG and RIO all claim they have 100 years plus of Iron ore in the Pilbara, what they are mining at the moment is nothing more than the raisons in a vast fruit cake.

This is a big country, lots of land mass containing loads of resources.

In future decades when we need other industries, it will be a different world of automation and robotics, and the manufactories that dominate today may lose their edge and we can build more here if thats going to be the only good place to deploy capital.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Neither China or the USA have a snowball’s chance in Hell at occupying each other’s homeland, so neither will invade the other.
> 
> A Cold War is possible, but that’s it, but that is in neither sides interest.




There is a possibility that China will seek to expand its empire incrementally by gobbling up little countries that no one cares about, like Taiwan, Burma, Thailand, Vietnam etc. Depending on the disposition of the US they would either let them do it or start a nuclear war. 

Nukes will be the only option if China is allowed to build it's military forces beyond a certain point and there will be economic sanctions if they go too far which will obviously affect us.




Value Collector said:


> BHP, FMG and RIO all claim they have 100 years plus of Iron ore in the Pilbara, what they are mining at the moment is nothing more than the raisons in a vast fruit cake.




That's probably based on current consumption and doesn't take into account increases in demand, plus the fact that the "low lying fruit" has been mined and its going to get progressively harder and therefore more expensive to get out what's left.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> BHP, FMG and RIO all claim they have 100 years plus of Iron ore in the Pilbara, what they are mining at the moment is nothing more than the raisons in a vast fruit cake.




That may well be true.

But can BHP or FMG supply electronics, water treatment chemicals, appliances, medical equipment or any of the myriad of other things we're completely dependent on imports for?

The idea that I'm taking issue with isn't simply about how much iron ore is in the ground but about the entire concept that selling rocks, of whatever sort, and importing just about everything else and having that relationship substantially with a single country.

Outright dependency is never good in any relationship. It leaves the dependent partner wide open to pretty much anything the other side wants with no real option to say no. All good so long as everyone's happy but gets seriously bad if it sours.

That there's any concern at all about China, or any other one country, restricting trade with Australia is of itself evidence that we have a dependency problem. The threat wouldn't bother us in the slightest if we had a healthy balance. Same goes for any other country, we shouldn't be needing to please them that's not a healthy relationship at all.


----------



## dutchie (20 May 2020)

Stop Buying Chinese Goods  -  I am, are you ?


----------



## dutchie (20 May 2020)

It's time to take a stand against Chinese bullying     -   Douglas Murray


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-to-take-a-stand-against-chinese-bullying


----------



## dutchie (20 May 2020)

China just called Australia a dog.
Calling a person a dog is the ultimate Chinese insult.
Think about that next time you buy a Chinese made product.


----------



## hja (20 May 2020)




----------



## chiff (20 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> China just called Australia a dog.
> Calling a person a dog is the ultimate Chinese insult.
> Think about that next time you buy a Chinese made product.



China called Australia a "running dog" during the Vietnam war.Did Canada take part in the attack on Iraq? In this latest faux pas Trump made the bullets and Morrison fired them.The story is that Australian politicians are incensed by US behaviour.The strong suspicion is that Trump used Morrison.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Stop Buying Chinese Goods - I am, are you ?



In many cases there's simply no choice, that's my primary concern.

Where there is a choice however, well why on earth would I want to eat vegetables from China when I can instead buy a comparable product grown, processed and packaged in Australia?

I do wish to emphasize however that my point is an economic and national security one not a racist one. There's no excuse for racism against ordinary people just because of concerns about a country's government or a desire to see your own country do well economically.


----------



## PZ99 (20 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> View attachment 103617
> 
> 
> Stop Buying Chinese Goods  -  I am, are you ?



Yeah sure... that device you used to create that post - where's it made ?



dutchie said:


> China just called Australia a dog.
> Calling a person a dog is the ultimate Chinese insult.
> Think about that next time you buy a Chinese made product.



Correction: Chinese MEDIA just called Australia a dog...
Seen far more inflammatory comments on Australian media directed at other world leaders - especially from the right... Alan Jones etc:

Pays not to take the bait mate - you're playing right into their hands by giving them more airtime than they deserve.


----------



## moXJO (20 May 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Yeah sure... that device you used to create that post - where's it made ?
> 
> 
> .




Samsung is actually Vietnam. They moved out of China.


----------



## moXJO (20 May 2020)

China is playing a dumb game by calling out and punishing Australia with the rest of the world looking on.

Not a good look for them. We are expected to be drongo idiots.


----------



## PZ99 (20 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Samsung is actually Vietnam. They moved out of China.




Not the battery it ain't.


----------



## moXJO (20 May 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Not the battery it ain't.



That's not the phone.

I don't base the build location of my car from the battery


----------



## PZ99 (21 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> That's not the phone.
> 
> I don't base the build location of my car from the battery



Well reluctantly or not, you do.

Because without the battery your car is well and truly "based" 

So until another country steps up with its own semiconductor industry that can undercut cheap Chinese crap our chances of telling them to get nicked are zero.

Either that or the whole world ditches the idea of greed at all costs for their little toys.


----------



## qldfrog (21 May 2020)

@PZ99 has a point @moXJO :
Even if assembled in Vietnam mostly due to cheaper labour costs, nowadays, all components, the plastics and metal from the case, the battery, the charger will be made in china, your wifi router or components for your 4g connection will be made in china.
If China boycotts electronic exports, we have no smartphone working within 5y.
Which will be the least of our worries by then
Our dependency is abysmal


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2020)

Australia is not alone in being insulted by China, so I wouldn't take it too hard. Countries all over Europe have called in Chinese ambassadors over "inappropriate" comments.

Maybe being insulted by China is a badge of honour.


----------



## Value Collector (21 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> China just called Australia a dog.
> Calling a person a dog is the ultimate Chinese insult.
> Think about that next time you buy a Chinese made product.




I think a lot of Aussies have been saying a lot worse about Chinese people.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think a lot of Aussies have been saying a lot worse about Chinese people.




Its a bit different when a government does it, they are supposed to set an example.


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2020)

*Poll: 78% Of Americans Are Willing To Pay More For Non-China Made Products*
40% won’t buy anything from China now.

In addition to these findings, 55% said that they do not believe China can be trusted to fulfill its trade-deal commitment to buy more U.S. products, while 66% said they favor raising import restrictions over the pursuit of free-trade deals as a better way to boost the U.S. economy.

The findings come as President Trump announced that he now feels ‘differently’ about the trade deal he signed with China earlier this year.

”I feel differently now about that deal than I did three months ago,” Trump told reporters Tuesday.

https://summit.news/2020/05/20/poll...ling-to-pay-more-for-non-china-made-products/


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2020)

*India offers land to foreign investors who wish to reduce their reliance on China*

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/...wish-to-reduce-their-reliance-on-china-296867


----------



## againsthegrain (21 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *India offers land to foreign investors who wish to reduce their reliance on China*
> 
> https://www.wionews.com/india-news/...wish-to-reduce-their-reliance-on-china-296867




China doesn't actually make anything,  its the brilliant minds of the West that design, test and put together the blueprints and concepts.  
unfortunately through our greed which Chinese are so good at exploiting we rely on them to assemble and create the components and electronics we design. 

Saying they "make it" is not entirely correct.  If they boycotted electronics we would be in trouble, however if we rolled up our sleeves and did the hard work ourselves (yes no easy money and 500% profit margins)  they would be in alot more trouble themselves. 

The whole population would be forced to use cheap knock off chinese IPhones which will self ignite and tvs that crack when you stare at them too hard. 

To put it in perspective Chinese are good at copying somebody else's intellectual property, designs and ideas or working from a supplied blueprint but they lack the creative mind to actually create anything from scratch that fulfils the design function


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2020)

The more China enforces restrictive trade practices, the faster the other countries will develop their own manufacturing capability, China will lose out in the long run.
The U.S if it gets angry can very quickly ramp up production, as was proven in WW2, the U.S imports $700billion of Chinese goods, China only imports $100billion of U.S goods. A lot will hang on the outcome of this years U.S elections IMO.
So China would have to find other markets for its junk, the U.S and E.U would take China's share of our raw materials, to feed their increased output.
In all probability the U.S, U.K, Europe would form a trading block, it would be an interesting situation, which I personally don't think will eventuate.
But China's actions certainly must be ringing alarm bells, to those countries signed up to the 'belt and road' programme, China is proving themselves to be your friend until you don't agree with them.
It must be a worrying situation, for the port of Darwin and the Victorian Government IMO and if it isn't it should be.
Just my opinion.


----------



## bellenuit (21 May 2020)

*Apple is planning to manufacture its upcoming over-ear AirPods Studio headphones in Vietnam*

https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/19/airpods-studio-vietnam-report/

*Apple may reportedly move 20% of iPhone production from China to India*

https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_to_b...ne_production_from_china_to_in-news-43133.php

*Apple supplier TSMC confirms it’s building an Arizona chip plant*

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21259094/apple-tsmc-factory-chips-arizona-a-series


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Well reluctantly or not, you do.
> 
> Because without the battery your car is well and truly "based"
> 
> ...



South Korea and Japan both produce batteries.
China is cheap. It's not the only place that makes stuff, it's cheap. That's their edge. Cheap with infrastructure in place for transport.  Once the middle class expands it gets more expensive.

As for semiconductors China is way behind. I think they are about to spend $1trillion on getting the edge over the US.

Japan was similar in the 70s and 80s. Built crap and now it's considered high end components. China will follow a similar path. Demographics will be interesting over the next 20 years.

As for the car with no battery; I'll have you know I've watched at least 6 episodes of MacGyver. I'm pretty confident I could knock one up out of pinecones, chewing gum, lemon and some tinfoil.


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2020)

India needs better infrastructure to get the goods to where they are going. They have a huge economic zone they made to poach industry. 
But China already has a trained workforce and all logistics in place. 
Downside is that IP is pretty much non existent in China. They just steal your idea and mass produce it. Also their government has just shown they are unreasonable when demands are not met. Business likes stability.

US/west would have to tariff the hell out of China to make it less attractive. I don't see a mass exodus at this point


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 May 2020)

*Breaking the China Supply Chain: How the ‘Five Eyes’ can Decouple from Strategic Dependency*



> The report uses “Comtrade” data, compiled by the UN, of 5910 subsets of goods to measure “strategic dependency”. A country is “strategically dependent” on China for a good when more than 50% of imports of that good are from China, it is a net importer of those goods, and China controls more than 30% of the global market for that good.





> All members of the Five Eyes are affected:
> 
> Australia is strategically dependent on China for 595 categories of goods.  167 of these have applications in critical national infrastructure.
> New Zealand is strategically dependent on China for 513 categories of goods.  144 of these have applications in critical national infrastructure.
> ...



https://henryjacksonsociety.org/pub...-eyes-can-decouple-from-strategic-dependency/


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> *Breaking the China Supply Chain: How the ‘Five Eyes’ can Decouple from Strategic Dependency*
> 
> 
> https://henryjacksonsociety.org/pub...-eyes-can-decouple-from-strategic-dependency/



Great find Dona, we are in for some radical change.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2020)

Another slap in the face for us from China ?

https://www.afr.com/world/asia/chin...ion-rules-in-new-trade-threat-20200521-p54v2y

If they get too bolshie then maybe we should insist that all iron ore exports to China be paid for in full before they leave Australia.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> If China boycotts electronic exports, we have no smartphone working within 5y.
> Which will be the least of our worries by then
> Our dependency is abysmal



This is the real danger.

Being completely dependent on others, for things you actually need, always poses a risk. That is especially so when the other party is one that's far larger and very different culturally.

It's not as though we haven't manufactured electronics in Australia in the past - AWA and Philips were both big operations making all sorts of things but then IBM and Panasonic (originally trading under the name of National) both at least assembled in Australia in the past indeed they were still doing it in the 1990's.

One aspect of that incidentally is that aggressive competition between AWA and Philips made Australia a world leader in traffic signal controllers at the time, indeed the software written in-house by the NSW state government is still used internationally today under license. Queensland state government has some commercial activities with software in that area too. Legacies from the era when government wasn't afraid to work alongside private enterprise to make things happen with Australian production.


----------



## satanoperca (22 May 2020)

Well worth watching.
The difference between Chinese people and their govnuts CCP.
Stop the calls from anyone who calls another entity/person calling out the Chinese govnuts as racists.
Everything is in the detail.


----------



## wayneL (22 May 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Well worth watching.
> The difference between Chinese people and their govnuts CCP.
> Stop the calls from anyone who calls another entity/person calling out the Chinese govnuts as racists.
> Everything is in the detail.




Fascinating, but not the least bit surprising


----------



## joeno (22 May 2020)

I find the nature of these posts ironic as hell. "Let's be angry when China buys our stuff. How dare they nick our precious ore and baby powder. Let's be angrier when China doesn't buy our stuff. How dare they try to ruin our economy."

Also find it funny we only find the Chinese people credible are the ones who are treasonous and backstabbing. Yet if say a Brit was to do the same they'd risk the capital punishment. Makes you think...


----------



## Humid (22 May 2020)

joeno said:


> I find the nature of these posts ironic as hell. "Let's be angry when China buys our stuff. How dare they nick our precious ore and baby powder. Let's be angrier when China doesn't buy our stuff. How dare they try to ruin our economy."
> 
> Also find it funny we only find the Chinese people credible are the ones who are treasonous and backstabbing. Yet if say a Brit was to do the same they'd risk the capital punishment. Makes you think...




Choose a side mate.....it’s only the Internet


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2020)

joeno said:


> I find the nature of these posts ironic as hell. "Let's be angry when China buys our stuff. How dare they nick our precious ore and baby powder. Let's be angrier when China doesn't buy our stuff. How dare they try to ruin our economy."




China is what they are, the real failure is on the part of the West for sticking our collective heads firmly in the sand and pretending that China is just a Western country that speaks a different language, comparable to say France, ignoring the major cultural and governance differences. 

It's arrogance on the part of the West which leads to that. Naively expecting that everyone will adopt our ways since we think we are clearly superior and therefore everyone must want to be like us. Americans are particularly bad in that regard.

We can do business with China but we need to remember that's what it is, strictly business. Don't let it become a dependency - that it has done so is where the problem arises.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> China is what they are, the real failure is on the part of the West for sticking our collective heads firmly in the sand and pretending that China is just a Western country that speaks a different language, comparable to say France, ignoring the major cultural and governance differences.
> 
> It's arrogance on the part of the West which leads to that. Naively expecting that everyone will adopt our ways since we think we are clearly superior and therefore everyone must want to be like us. Americans are particularly bad in that regard.
> 
> We can do business with China but we need to remember that's what it is, strictly business. Don't let it become a dependency - that it has done so is where the problem arises.



It reminds me of the early days of contracts with them, you had a contract until they didnt like it, then they wanted a new contract.lol


----------



## chiff (23 May 2020)

The difficulty is keeping the middle ground between the US and China.Should not be that hard to do if we act in good faith and understand the parties.The US is big enough and ugly enough to get way with antagonist behaviour toward China-a minnow like Australia is not.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> China is what they are, the real failure is on the part of the West for sticking our collective heads firmly in the sand and pretending that China is just a Western country that speaks a different language, comparable to say France, ignoring the major cultural and governance differences.
> 
> It's arrogance on the part of the West which leads to that. Naively expecting that everyone will adopt our ways since we think we are clearly superior and therefore everyone must want to be like us. Americans are particularly bad in that regard.
> 
> We can do business with China but we need to remember that's what it is, strictly business. Don't let it become a dependency - that it has done so is where the problem arises.




I would say satisfy our own needs before we export.

We export iron ore and met coal for others to produce steel which we import when we can make it here.

We export seafood but also import seafood, why not just eat our own seafood first and then export the rest ?

Same with beef and other meat and dairy. Free trade agreements have eroded our national sovereignty. 

If we want to apply import quotas against stuff we don't need we get taken to court. 

We need to get real and manufacture more of our needs instead of training more baristars and hairdressers.


----------



## qldfrog (23 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It reminds me of the early days of contracts with them, you had a contract until they didnt like it, then they wanted a new contract.lol



Still like that...
I like @Smurf1976 highlighting the arrogance of the west as a cause.
We aka west, not I , still see China as a mass of bicycle riding peasants going to the rice fields whereas it is a world factory sucking jobs from us and creating untold wealth.there.
And a feeling of a selected Han race akind to nazi ubermenschen...
We are still so naive with our democraties....


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Still like that...
> I like @Smurf1976 highlighting the arrogance of the west as a cause.
> We aka west, not I , still see China as a mass of bicycle riding peasants going to the rice fields whereas it is a world factory sucking jobs from us and creating untold wealth.there.
> And a feeling of a selected Han race akind to nazi ubermenschen...
> We are still so naive with our democraties....



Absolutely, I love the fact China is putting an 80% tarrif on our barley, because they believe the industry is subsidised by the Government.
I mean really, China talking about Government subsidies, when they own just about every industry in their Country.
Weird moral compass, that should ring massive alarm bells IMO.
Australia really needs to wake up.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Still like that...
> I like @Smurf1976 highlighting the arrogance of the west as a cause.
> We aka west, not I , still see China as a mass of bicycle riding peasants going to the rice fields whereas it is a world factory sucking jobs from us and creating untold wealth.there.
> And a feeling of a selected Han race akind to nazi ubermenschen...
> We are still so naive with our democraties....



the 'Middle Kingdom' is their concept of being halfway between heaven and earth. It implies a certain elitism

But for a power projection that has bought endless dynasties that follow repeated cycles, the last century has seen Boxer rebellion, rise of Nationalism, civil war, Japanese invasion, Mao triumph, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Get Rich is Glorious, Tiananmen, and whatever the current slogan is, I do wonder what's next? Not forgetting Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan.


----------



## chiff (23 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> the 'Middle Kingdom' is their concept of being halfway between heaven and earth. It implies a certain elitism
> 
> But for a power projection that has bought endless dynasties that follow repeated cycles, the last century has seen Boxer rebellion, rise of Nationalism, civil war, Japanese invasion, Mao triumph, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Get Rich is Glorious, Tiananmen, and whatever the current slogan is, I do wonder what's next? Not forgetting Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan.



Believe it or not...Hong Kong and Taiwan will end up being part of one China...In 1997 when Britain made terms for the handover of Hong Kong China was not strong enough to oppose this.23years on they are and there is no hint of a US carrier fleet threatening them like in the not so distant past.There are sizeable minorities in Taiwan and Hong Kong that want to be part of one China.The "Middle Kingdom" is historical and goes way back,even when the western countries were killing them,bleeding them, and treating them with contempt.If I lived in Hong kong over the last 20 years I would have done my best to leave,but I have a western mentality.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 May 2020)

chiff said:


> Believe it or not...Hong Kong and Taiwan will end up being part of one China...In 1997 when Britain made terms for the handover of Hong Kong China was not strong enough to oppose this.23years on they are and there is no hint of a US carrier fleet threatening them like in the not so distant past.There are sizeable minorities in Taiwan and Hong Kong that want to be part of one China.The "Middle Kingdom" is historical and goes way back,even when the western countries were killing them,bleeding them, and treating them with contempt.If I lived in Hong kong over the last 20 years I would have done my best to leave,but I have a western mentality.



correct. So, the lesson to be learned.....  50 years of negotiated "two systems, one country" ain't worth a piece of crap.

In other words, rule of law is a Western conceit. But a good one, IMO, and will bring a semblance of stability, whereas it would be fair to perceive by those exercising a capricious, arbitrary heavying of opposition, real or imagined, that their way is the winner.

It's looming as the 2020's battle of wills.


----------



## chiff (24 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> correct. So, the lesson to be learned.....  50 years of negotiated "two systems, one country" ain't worth a piece of crap.
> 
> In other words, rule of law is a Western conceit. But a good one, IMO, and will bring a semblance of stability, whereas it would be fair to perceive by those exercising a capricious, arbitrary heavying of opposition, real or imagined, that their way is the winner.
> 
> It's looming as the 2020's battle of wills.



Rule of Law depends who makes the laws..and in what circumstances .Probably not on China,but did you know that two weeks ago America made an attempt to kidnap Venezuelan president Madura so he could answer to US law.The team was trained in the US and the attempt launched from Columbia.Eight of the team were killed 23 captured(but more to come).Some in the US are calling it the "Bay of Piglets)Reminds me of Assange...we should answer to US law.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2020)

chiff said:


> Rule of Law depends who makes the laws..and in what circumstances .Probably not on China,but did you know that two weeks ago America made an attempt to kidnap Venezuelan president Madura so he could answer to US law.The team was trained in the US and the attempt launched from Columbia.Eight of the team were killed 23 captured(but more to come).Some in the US are calling it the "Bay of Piglets)Reminds me of Assange...we should answer to US law.




_1. An Associated Press investigation found no evidence of U.S. government involvement in the plot.
_
https://apnews.com/79346b4e428676424c0e5669c80fc310


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## dutchie (24 May 2020)

*US warns it could ‘disconnect’ from Australia over Victoria’s Belt and Road deal with China*
https://www.news.com.au/finance/bus...a/news-story/abb23216ff1b334019e711b1a134ca22

Didn't Andrews get the message...

*Huawei banned from Australian 5G network*

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...k/news-story/d1d6ec001747ba51e7c5c8738021f7ee


China lied, people died.
China is dangerous to the world.
Wake up Australia.
Play the long game.


----------



## chiff (24 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> _1. An Associated Press investigation found no evidence of U.S. government involvement in the plot.
> _
> https://apnews.com/79346b4e428676424c0e5669c80fc310



Piglets might fly!


----------



## chiff (24 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *US warns it could ‘disconnect’ from Australia over Victoria’s Belt and Road deal with China*
> https://www.news.com.au/finance/bus...a/news-story/abb23216ff1b334019e711b1a134ca22
> 
> Didn't Andrews get the message...
> ...



Is China our enemy?I rarely read Australian newspapers...not reliable in the past.


----------



## dutchie (24 May 2020)

Everyone should read this report:

*https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/2449-A-Year-of-the-Bat-ppi-72-WEB.pdf*

Discussion by authors here:

*A New Cold War? What has Covid-19 revealed about China, China-West relations & Globalisation?*


----------



## DB008 (24 May 2020)

Very interesting. 

​


----------



## dutchie (31 May 2020)

THIS is how to battle Beijing: Few understand China's contempt for our way of life - and their determination to destroy it. NORMAN BAKER says we have no choice but to hit back

In my dealings with *China* over many years, I have learnt one hard fact: they do not play by the same rules as other countries. They play dirty. 

China’s Communist regime has no time for debate, let alone opposing points of view. It despises democracy and wants to see it replaced as the natural form of government.

This mean, self-interested cynicism is already changing the way we live and it is time that Western democracies like ours took off their rose-tinted glasses and saw the regime for what it really is. 

We must come together as a free world to tackle it before it is too late.

You can be sure that any country that invokes ‘the people’ is one where the people are nowhere near the levers of power. They are simply there to serve the machine.

Today, Xi’s government has a surveillance state that makes George Orwell’s 1984 look tame.

So be warned. It is now common for foreigners arriving at a Chinese airport to have their phone taken away for 15 minutes while personal information and contacts are copied and a secret surveillance app installed.

With an economy that will soon be the biggest on the planet, the Chinese can afford to buy the silence of those who find the regime distasteful. Abroad, they are allowed to behave like a 19th Century colonial power, stripping poor countries of natural resources and securing oppressive political influence, often for very little in return. 

With the help of countries it has bought off, Beijing has managed to get itself appointed to the UN consultative group to select experts to investigate human rights abuses.

What a sick joke. This is the country that shoots its own people if they dare to demonstrate, and then sends a bill for the bullets used to kill them to their surviving relatives.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...gues-hit-against-China-contempt-way-life.html


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## dutchie (4 June 2020)

China is at war with the world. It wants to dominate it.

Gordon Chang On China: What We Must Do, & What We Must Not Do

First of all, China is not, as many people will tell you, just a competitor. It is an enemy. China is trying to overthrow the international system, and in that process, it is trying to make you subject to modern-day Chinese emperors.

*That means there is only one inescapable conclusion. This conclusion is that China maliciously spread this virus around the world, sickening people, killing others.*

This is the first time in history that one nation has attacked all the others.

*That is not all. After admitting the human-to-human contagiousness of this disease, Beijing then downplayed it.

China's actions had consequences. Beijing lulled public health officials around the world, including those in the United States, into not taking actions that they otherwise would have adopted.

We must impose costs on China. We must impose costs because, first of all, what China did was a crime against all of humanity. We must also impose costs because we need to deter China. This is not going to be the last pathogen generated on Chinese soil. We got to make sure the Chinese leaders do not believe that they can maliciously spread another disease.

The truth is that the United States is defending more than just its position in the international system. We are defending the international system itself, the system of treaties, conventions, rules, and norms.*


(A fairly long article but well worth a read.)


----------



## chiff (4 June 2020)

dutchie said:


> China is at war with the world. It wants to dominate it.
> 
> Gordon Chang On China: What We Must Do, & What We Must Not Do
> 
> ...



Who is Gordon Chang?


----------



## dutchie (4 June 2020)

chiff said:


> Who is Gordon Chang?



https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Gordon+G.+Chang


----------



## chiff (4 June 2020)

dutchie said:


> https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Gordon+G.+Chang



Had a quick look ...looks like solidly anti-Chinese.
Without looking I thought it was Gordon Chan,bastard son of the Taipan, in James Clavell's novel of the same  name.However, he would have been dead for well over 100 years.I recommend that book to you .
It is about the founding of Hong Kong and goes into a lot of old Chinese beliefs and customs.One that I remember was the Chinese spat in the streets,and as they said, much better than carrying it around in their pockets   like the Europeans.


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## dutchie (4 June 2020)

chiff said:


> Had a quick look ...looks like solidly anti-Chinese.
> Without looking I thought it was Gordon Chan,bastard son of the Taipan, in James Clavell's novel of the same  name.However, he would have been dead for well over 100 years.I recommend that book to you .
> It is about the founding of Hong Kong and goes into a lot of old Chinese beliefs and customs.One that I remember was the Chinese spat in the streets,and as they said, much better than carrying it around in their pockets   like the Europeans.



Excellent book, excellent writer (similar to James A Michener)


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## dutchie (6 June 2020)

Don't buy  Made In China.


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## moXJO (6 June 2020)

China just warned against Australian travel. That's a big hit. 
But will get us off the teat.


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## frugal.rock (12 June 2020)

They


moXJO said:


> China just warned against Australian travel. That's a big hit.
> But will get us off the teat.



They have doubled down again on this. There's an undercurrent attempting to bring down the CCP.
Wait and see.


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## frugal.rock (12 June 2020)

When I was in Beijing late last year, there were two occasions where I noticed unusual obs of.....me.
One was in the heart of the city at a major shopping centre.
I walked past a guy who had a certain appearance which attracted my attention, a quick glance was all I gave him though.
My curiosity got the better of me, when I was about 10m past him, I took another glance looking back.
He had his phone out and was blatantly taking video of me.

A similar incident happened on a train, was sitting down though.

I wasn't sure what to think of these occurrences, as I am used to people looking at me when there, like a zoo exhibit.
On both occasions, we are talking men aged around 30~ 35.
The double take on the first one was purely because he was suspect, won't go into reasons why, except to say, I discreetly recognise higher end criminals when I see one... (my mind wasn't on the job for the first glance...)
The guy on the train, I didn't come to the same conclusion with, I was unable to profile him with any degree of accuracy.

On a complete side note, the city has air raid shelters at regular intervals.

My opinion;
rewards were being offered for facial & position intel on foreigners by .... official Gestapo.

F.Rock


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## dutchie (12 June 2020)

Don't buy made in China. 
Don't travel to China.


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## DB008 (13 June 2020)

*Zoom says China asked it to censor pro-democracy*
*activists in US and it obeyed*​
*Chinese officials had reached out to Zoom in May and early June about four video conference calls that were publicized on social media to commemorate Tiananmen Square protests.*​
*San Francisco: *Zoom Video Communications Inc. said it deactivated accounts of pro-democracy Chinese activists based in the U.S. at the request of China, intensifying concerns that Beijing is extending its censorship clout globally.

Chinese officials reached out to Zoom in May and early June about four videoconference calls that were publicized on social media to commemorate Tiananmen Square protests, the San Jose, California-based company said Thursday in a blog post. Zoom said that China “demanded” the company terminate the meetings and host accounts because of the activity, which it deemed illegal.

Zoom said that at least three of the four meetings contained participants from mainland China, and it made the decision to end three of the meetings and terminate the associated accounts, two in the U.S. and one belonging to an activist in Hong Kong. “Going forward Zoom will not allow requests from the Chinese government to impact anyone outside of mainland China,” the company said.

Zoom announced Wednesday it had reinstated the closed U.S. accounts, and said it was working on technology that could prevent participants from specific countries from joining calls that were deemed illegal in those areas. The company will also outline a new policy to address these types on requests on June 30.

Beijing employs some of the strictest internet controls in the world, rooting out content and blocking websites it deems a threat to stability. It has scaled up the level of censorship in the years since President Xi Jinping came to power, expanding controls on social media, requiring real-name registration of accounts, criminalizing the spread of rumors and punishing influential commentators with millions of followers.

While China’s Great Firewall blocks access to internet sites such as Google, Facebook and Twitter, more of its 1.4 billion citizens are turning to home-grown alternatives such as WeChat and Weibo to express their discontent. Controls have become even more stringent this year, after the coronavirus outbreak unleashed a rare outpouring of criticism of China’s government. Internet controls also typically intensify ahead of major political events or other dates deemed sensitive such as the June 4 anniversary of the deadly student protests in 1989.​

https://theprint.in/world/zoom-says...mocracy-activists-in-us-and-it-obeyed/440148/
​


----------



## DB008 (14 June 2020)

*SKY News*

*Special Report: Inside China’s COVID Cold War with the West*

Western allies have condemned China for using the smokescreen of the COVID-19 pandemic to impose a new security law in Hong Kong which violates its international commitments and threatens the "bastion of freedom".

The dire warnings came from the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia and Canada as tensions between the embattled Chinese Communist Party and the west reached rock bottom.

China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi says American politicians are taking China-US relations “hostage” and "pushing our two countries to the brink of a new Cold War" – and placing world stability “in jeopardy”.

“It’s time for the US to give up this wishful thinking of changing China or stopping 1.4 billion people’s historic march toward modernisation,” Mr Wang warned.

The joint statement from four of the Five Eyes allies said: “China’s decision to impose the new national security law on Hong Kong lies in direct conflict with its international obligations under the principles of the legally-binding, UN-registered Sino-British Joint Declaration”.

“The proposed law would undermine the One Country, Two Systems framework. It also raises the prospect of prosecution in Hong Kong for political crimes, and undermines existing commitments to protect the rights of Hong Kong people.

“The world’s focus on a global pandemic requires enhanced trust in governments and international cooperation. Beijing’s unprecedented move risks having the opposite effect.”

China Foreign Ministry Spokesman Zhao Lijian warned his country “will take necessary counter-measures” against interference from external forces – an aggressive tactic China has wielded throughout the pandemic to suppress rising anti-China sentiment and hide its early failures.

The most egregious of these was China’s twin billion-dollar trade blows in May on Australian barley and abattoirs after its ambassador issued a threat in response to the Morrison government’s call for an inquiry into the origin of the virus.

As US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo put it – “the Chinese Communist Party chose to threaten Australia with economic retribution for the simple act of asking for an independent inquiry into the origins of the virus”.

China initially perceived the inquiry Australia pushed, which passed the World Health Assembly unanimously, as a witch-hunt created by Washington but eventually bowed to international pressure provided its World Health Organisation “puppet” leads the review​
​


----------



## dutchie (14 June 2020)

chiff said:


> Believe it or not...Hong Kong and Taiwan will end up being part of one China...In 1997 when Britain made terms for the handover of Hong Kong China was not strong enough to oppose this.23years on they are and there is no hint of a US carrier fleet threatening them like in the not so distant past.There are sizeable minorities in Taiwan and Hong Kong that want to be part of one China.The "Middle Kingdom" is historical and goes way back,even when the western countries were killing them,bleeding them, and treating them with contempt.If I lived in Hong kong over the last 20 years I would have done my best to leave,but I have a western mentality.




Hong Kong and Taiwan are gone. In years to come so will other Asian countries.
There is no doubt about it. 
The US is weak at the moment as are all other western countries who also like the $'s that China provides.
The UN is useless and just wastes our money on the elite drawing large salaries for doing sfa.
At the moment, just like the BLM movement, we are at the kneeling stage.


----------



## dutchie (17 June 2020)

Chinese aggression against India has flared.
Watch that conflict. Up to 70 dead.


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## dutchie (19 June 2020)

How can we possibly keep trading with China.
It has tried to demolish our economy with a virus, excessive tariffs and threats of further economic punishment if we don't kowtow to them.
They have now launched a large cyber attack on Australia.
They have declared war on us.
Enough is enough.


----------



## Barry2020 (20 June 2020)

The sad reality is that a lot of Chinese people don't even know about Tiananmen Square, they think it is all a hoax perpetrated by the West. The CCP controls every aspect of their citizen's lives including what they think.
The CCP regime enslaves, tortures and murders anyone who dares defy them.
We have to hold our nerve and take the sacrifices that comes with standing up to such a brutal regime. They have gotten away with brutalizing their own people, now they are trying to bully everyone else.

I've heard it said by industry experts that the margins on new Cars are small and producing a quality Car for less than what the big names sell them for is hard. Is China using a lot of slave labour to produce these cheap vehicles? I'd counsel anyone buying a cheap Chinese new Car or any Chinese product


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## DB008 (20 June 2020)

*'Cyber attacks' point to China's spy agency, Ministry of State Security, as Huawei payback, say former Australian officials*​"Cyber attacks" on Australian government and industry bodies are most likely being directed by China's premier intelligence agency in retaliation for banning telco Huawei from the 5G network, experts have told the ABC.

In August 2018, the Australian Government banned Huawei and other companies from involvement in Australia's 5G network.

The ABC spoke to two former Australian officials who confirmed that the Huawei ban sparked the malicious cyber campaign. Both spoke on condition of anonymity given the sensitive nature of the story.

One of the former officials said evidence suggested the attackers may be linked to China's most powerful intelligence service, the Ministry of State Security (MSS).

However, cyber security researcher Robert Potter — who has spent years investigating MSS intrusions around the world and has previously attributed breaches to them — said the low level of sophistication of the attacks made attribution difficult.

"Based on the evidence, I'd say it strongly leans towards MSS," he said.

"The reality is that the tactics are so simple that it frustrates our ability to make complete attribution."

He agreed with the assessment that the campaign has been going on for a long time.

"The campaign dates back some time and correlates to a deterioration in our relationship with China," he said.

China's government on Friday evening rejected suggestions of a large-scale hacking attack.

A Chinese foreign ministry spokesman says he believes the claims of hacking originate from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, which he says is funded by US arms companies and is making fictitious claims about China.​

More on link below...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...5g-ban-payback-from-china-spy-agency/12374374
​


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## Knobby22 (23 June 2020)

Looks like China has told Trump to get nicked,trade deal is off.
e.g. China buys a mere 13% of its soybean commitment from the USA.

_Sechel: U.s. farmers are probably shaking their head. Trump's never proved his case on China. He needs this as a re-election issue for his base. But he loses the Farm vote for sure. My suspicion is based on the secrecy of the talks it was China that ended the deal not Donald. Trump needs the deal more than they do right now. China can wait a few months_

Deals on then off, Trumps trying to make promises to China *in secret *so he can get re-elected. Deal discussions are* happening real time*, what will Trump give up?  Rumour is that he will sign the USA on to Huwei 5G.  Trump is just incompetent. Why won't he listen to his advisers? Let's see how he betrays the USA and what China extract and whether there are any whistle blowers left in his group of yes men.

https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/china-buys-a-mere-13-of-its-soybean-commitment


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## DB008 (27 June 2020)

If you use Tik Tok (mainly younger gen), stop. All of your passwords are probably sitting on a server in China...

​


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## DB008 (29 June 2020)

*EU says China behind 'huge wave' of Covid-19 disinformation*

*Brussels shifts position by accusing Beijing for first time of running false campaigns*​China has been accused by Brussels of running disinformation campaigns inside the European Union, as the bloc set out a plan to tackle a “huge wave” of false facts about the coronavirus pandemic. 

The European commission said Russia and China were running “targeted influence operations and disinformation campaigns in the EU, its neighbourhood, and globally”. While the charge against Russia has been levelled on many occasions, this is the first time the EU executive has publicly named China as a source of disinformation. 

French politicians were furious when a Chinese embassy website claimed in mid-April, at the height of Europe’s pandemic, that care workers had abandoned their jobs leaving residents to die. The unnamed Chinese diplomat also claimed falsely that 80 French lawmakers had used a racist slur against the head of the World Health Organization, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.

“I believe if we have evidence we should not shy away from naming and shaming,” Vĕra Jourová, a European commission vice-president, told reporters. “What we also witnessed is a surge in narratives undermining our democracies and in effect our response to the crisis, for example the claim there are secret US biological laboratories on former Soviet republics has been spread by both pro-Kremlin outlets, as well as Chinese officials and state media.”

“I strongly believe that a geopolitically strong EU can only materialise if we are assertive,” Jourová said, alluding to the aim of the European commission’s president, Ursula von der Leyen, for the body to have more clout on the world stage.

The more assertive stance marks a change in tone from a report in March which merely described Chinese media narratives, while focusing the spotlight on disinformation from Kremlin-backed sources. It comes after lawmakers in the European parliament accused the commission of watering down an earlier report on disinformation under pressure from China – charges EU officials strongly denied.​

More on link below...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...nd-huge-wave-covid-19-disinformation-campaign​


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## DB008 (29 June 2020)

Federal Police raid NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane last week :

*NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane says he*
*is 'not a suspect' in AFP espionage investigation*​NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane says he is not a suspect in the espionage investigation that saw his Sydney home and office raided last week.​
Mr Moselmane on Friday had his Labor Party membership suspended after the raids, which were part of a joint AFP-ASIO investigation amid allegations his office had been infiltrated by a Chinese government agent.​
"The investigation is into certain other people, allegedly advancing the goals of a foreign Government, namely the Peoples Republic of China," he said.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...moselmane-not-a-suspect-in-afp-probe/12402596​


60 minutes runs Chinese political interference story yesterday :
*
60 Minutes reveals details of ASIO investigation into alleged Chinese interference plot of NSW politics*​An investigation by 60 Minutes, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age newspaper has confirmed that Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane's office is now the centre of the most serious ASIO counter foreign interference operation since the Cold War.​
ASIO are investigating the allegation that, whether knowingly or unknowingly, Moselmane is potentially being influenced by the Chinese government.​
No allegations have been proven. It is also possible that Mr Moselmane may only be an unwitting victim of a Chinese government influence operation.​
https://9now.nine.com.au/60-minutes...-minutes/6939c129-181f-4bfd-8228-e4da4d17540b​


China's response today:
*
Chinese state media accuses Australia of spying campaign, says agents were arrested in 2018*​
​China's Government has used state media to launch an extraordinary attack on Australia, claiming Australian spies are waging an intensifying espionage campaign.

Beijing's main attack dog media outlet the Global Times published an article saying an Australian spying operation was disrupted in China two years ago.

The jingoistic tabloid posted pictures of what it claimed were items seized, which included a map of Shanghai and a compass.

It also claimed Australian spies were operating under the cover of diplomatic passports from the embassy in Beijing.

The paper said Chinese authorities arrested the Australian spies involved in the alleged operation.

The claims come amid increasing concern about China's espionage activities in Australia, with China warning it will take stronger measures to crack down on Australian espionage.

Asked about the allegations on Monday, Prime Minister Scott Morrison said: "I wouldn't be relying on Chinese state media for your sources for questions."

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) has been approached for comment about the Global Times report.

The article was China's sharpest criticism so far of Australia, and marks a new escalation in tensions.

It comes just days after an Australian Federal Police (AFP) raid on the home of NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane, as part of an investigation into allegations that Chinese government agents had infiltrated his office.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...tralia-is-stepping-up-spy-activities/12402032​

Blind Freddy can see through this. China carrying on like pork chops.


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## dutchie (30 June 2020)

Don't buy Made in China.


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## Knobby22 (30 June 2020)

China is trying hard to bring us (and many other countries such as Vietnam and Thailand) to heel.


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## DB008 (2 July 2020)

*Anonymous Hackers Target TikTok:*
*‘Delete This Chinese Spyware Now’*​This has been a week that TikTok—the Chinese viral video giant that has soared under lockdown—will want to put quickly behind it. The ByteDance-owned platform was under fire anyway, over allegations of data mishandling and censorship, but then a beta version of Apple’s iOS 14 beta caught the app secretly accessing users’ clipboards and a backlash immediately followed.

Whether India had always planned to announce its ban on TikTok, along with 58 other Chinese apps, on Monday June 30, or was prompted by the viral response to the iOS security issue is not known. But, as things stand, TikTok has been pulled from the App Store and Play Store in India, its largest market, and has seen similar protests from users in other major markets around the world, including the U.S.

One of the more unusual groups campaigning against TikTok is the newly awakened Anonymous hactivist group. As ever with Anonymous, it’s difficult to attribute anything to the non-existent central core of this loosely affiliated hacker collective, but one of the better followed Twitter accounts ostensibly linked to the group has been mounting a fierce campaign against TikTok for several weeks, one that has now gained prominence given the events of the last few days.​
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...delete-this-chinese-spyware-now/#7a17e4fe35cc​

​


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## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

Maybe we should give Hong Kong students priority over mainland Chinese students at our universities ?

Chinese students don't want to come here anymore anyway apparently.


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## basilio (16 July 2020)

I struggle to see the sense of this "Tell China to get nicked" discussion.

Our agriculture,  mining, manufacturing, retail and tertiary industries are all integrated into China as a critical  element of their operations. Tell China to get nicked might have an old fashioned Jingoist  ring to it but if if we were to follow it through we would crash our economy into a depression that roil our finance markets, destroy our national budgets and hollow out all teh industries I noted above.

How much do we export to China ? Check out this story.

*Australia-China trade stoush over coronavirus inquiry puts exports — and more —at risk*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...rade-stoush-over-coronavirus-inquiry/12241640


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## moXJO (16 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I struggle to see the sense of this "Tell China to get nicked" discussion.
> 
> Our agriculture,  mining, manufacturing, retail and tertiary industries are all integrated into China as a critical  element of their operations. Tell China to get nicked might have an old fashioned Jingoist  ring to it but if if we were to follow it through we would crash our economy into a depression that roil our finance markets, destroy our national budgets and hollow out all teh industries I noted above.
> 
> ...



Human rights abuses, south China seas, salami slicing in India and other neighbouring territories?


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I struggle to see the sense of this "Tell China to get nicked" discussion.
> 
> Our agriculture,  mining, manufacturing, retail and tertiary industries are all integrated into China as a critical  element of their operations. Tell China to get nicked might have an old fashioned Jingoist  ring to it but if if we were to follow it through we would crash our economy into a depression that roil our finance markets, destroy our national budgets and hollow out all teh industries I noted above.
> 
> ...




China is the one telling others to get nicked at the moment.

Do we crawl to them, suck it up, or quietly withdraw and try to find other markets ?

I prefer the latter.


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## basilio (16 July 2020)

I find what the US is doing around the world pretty confronting. But I wouldn't advocate attempting to destroy our trade relationships with them because of these behaviors.

We have to manage a relationship with China. We are also discovering that the wonderful world of free trade also creates its own problems in terms of undue dependence on other countries.  So yes we need to ask ourselves how we can restore some balance in our economy.

But deciding that China is "the big bad enemy" (and largely on the demands  of Donald Trump...) seems like a way to seriously undermine all our relations in Asia. What is the end game of this campaign ?


----------



## moXJO (16 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I find what the US is doing around the world pretty confronting. But I wouldn't advocate attempting to destroy our trade relationships with them because of these behaviors.
> 
> We have to manage a relationship with China. We are also discovering that the wonderful world of free trade also creates its own problems in terms of undue dependence on other countries.  So yes we need to ask ourselves how we can restore some balance in our economy.
> 
> But deciding that China is "the big bad enemy" (and largely on the demands  of Donald Trump...) seems like a way to seriously undermine all our relations in Asia. What is the end game of this campaign ?



Vietnam, India, Philippines, Indonesia all have issues. 
Its a very tricky spot. I'm all for trading with China and keeping a good relationship. But we can't keep our heads in the sand to the reality of the situation. 

Trump has nothing to do with the situation.


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## wayneL (16 July 2020)

Oh, we are villains alright.

Oh and they are villains too.

But given the choice between our villains and their villains I will choose our villains every time. FWIW


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2020)

basilio said:


> But deciding that China is "the big bad enemy" (and largely on the demands of Donald Trump...) seems like a way to seriously undermine all our relations in Asia. What is the end game of this campaign ?




I'm not sure we are undermining all our relations in Asia.

Indonesia and Malaysia must have concerns about China's treatment of fellow Muslims ie the Uighurs , but are too cowed to speak in public about it. We should look to strengthen our relationships with them on the basis of a common threat. 

Japan and India have no love for China, so there is more opportunity for strengthened relationships. 

The end game I suppose is to let China know that we won't be bullied and if that means losing some of our markets, so be it. India has the same population as China, so we should look for trade expansion there among other places.


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## bellenuit (17 July 2020)

Again repeating what I have said many times. The Left's outrage only applies to wrongdoings of the West.


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## Smurf1976 (17 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I struggle to see the sense of this "Tell China to get nicked" discussion.
> 
> Our agriculture, mining, manufacturing, retail and tertiary industries are all integrated into China as a critical element of their operations.




Selling these things is profitable most certainly.

Whether or not we should turn a blind eye in the pursuit of that profit is the question. 

Same with anything. Eg did asbestos mining companies do the right thing or the wrong thing decades ago? Was their duty to maximise profit? Or was public health a greater concern? A moral dilemma there.

Same could be said for many industries where there's a clear downside to the activity and the point is acknowledged in the financial industry to some extent via "ethical" funds and so on as well as some individual investors consciously choosing to not invest in certain activities they find unacceptable. 

I'm not preaching, only highlighting the dilemma.


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## basilio (17 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Selling these things is profitable most certainly.
> 
> Whether or not we should turn a blind eye in the pursuit of that profit is the question.
> 
> ...




Your digging into an interminable can of worms their Smurf 

I focused my comments on the trade and business relationship with China because on any analysis Australia is on weaker side of the trading ledger.

On a bigger perspective I think the rapid breakdown of international trust and respect is incredibly dangerous. *Put simply it is the road to war. *If we think things are bad with COVID 19 and every other environmental/social problem a shooting war between nuclear powers will destroy everyone. 

On that basis alone diplomacy not  personal abuse and war drums needs to be our direction.


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## moXJO (17 July 2020)

basilio said:


> On that basis alone diplomacy not  personal abuse and war drums needs to be our direction.



China is pushing into Mongolian land.
There was a violent skirmish in India where Chinese soldiers ambushed then bludgeoned about 40 Indians to death (Over land that China sees as strategic).
Myanmar, Cambodia, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Vietnam, Japan among many others.

They even claimed they had found Australia first and that they have rights. This is CCP ideology  not the Chinese people.

I find it strange you condemn trump and yet when a true monster like the CCP is involved, you go to smoke. Is it a communist thing? I'm honestly perplexed.


----------



## dutchie (17 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> They even claimed they had found Australia first and that they have rights. This is CCP ideology  not the Chinese people.



See post   #153


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## bellenuit (17 July 2020)

Click on the Twitter link and then select Show this thread. Worth a read. Maajid is one of the most moderate and open minded Muslims I have come across in the media and has always spoken out against Islamic extremism. Those of you who are UK citizens may wish to consider signing the petition (look for the post with the big green box a bit down) or even forward it to others who may not be aware of it. It need 100k signatures to get the UK government to respond and to allow Maajid to drop his hunger strike.


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## SirRumpole (17 July 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Again repeating what I have said many times. The Left's outrage only applies to wrongdoings of the West.




True, but I don't see the Muslim "community" either in this country or other Muslim countries holding rallies or protest meetings either.

Has Indonesia or Saudi Arabia offered to give Uighurs refugee status like the UK has done with Hong Kongers ?

If they don't care why should we ?


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## basilio (17 July 2020)

How about some perspective on the roles of the US and China in terms of wars  and foreign interventions around the globe ?

In our recent past past the US invaded Iraq on trumped up lies (weapons of mass destruction..) and proceeded to totally destroy a nation. Cost them 2 Trillion dollars and rising.

Afghanistan was the next disaster.  Overall the US history of interventions in foreign countries, overthrow of governments and projection  of US global power has been unparalleled.

Does the US see  China a threat to it's hitherto military/economic supremacy  in SE Asia and is therefore determined to clip its wings ?

*U.S. Wars and Hostile Actions: A List*





There is a reason that most countries polled in December 2013 by Gallup called the United States the greatest threat to peace in the world, and why Pew found that viewpoint increased in 2017.

https://davidswanson.org/warlist/


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## SirRumpole (17 July 2020)

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## bellenuit (17 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but I don't see the Muslim "community" either in this country or other Muslim countries holding rallies or protest meetings either.
> 
> Has Indonesia or Saudi Arabia offered to give Uighurs refugee status like the UK has done with Hong Kongers ?
> 
> If they don't care why should we ?




I agree. But I do not judge us by their standards. The petition is just to get the UK to debate imposing sanctions on China and a debate will draw some focus on their plight. I certainly do not think it the responsibility of any western country to offer them refugee status, as it is impossible for the west to solve the problems of every ethnic minority in the world. But letting China off scot free may let them think they can do anything without consequences.

I don't know why most Islamic countries are so silent. It was the same with Syrian refugees. The Saudis were happy to have Germany do the heavy lifting and their contribution would have been to build mosques.

The lack of response from many Islamic countries may be related to the brand of Islam practised. As you know, Muslims are not the best at getting on with others of the same fate but a different sect. This is what I gleaned from Wikipedia....

_Their language is related to Turkish and also shares similarities with Uzbek, Mongolian, Kazakh and Kyrgyz. Islam is an important part of their identity. Most practice a moderate form of *Sunni* Islam, while some are followers of Sufi sects. It is not uncommon for *Uighurs* to drink alcohol or for women to work_

Anyway the main purpose of the post was to draw attention to the double standards of the Left who are quick to shout out anything bad associated with the West, but not anyone else. It is quite noticeable that not one of those who frequent these boards that I see as fairly far to the left of centre has made a single comment. Which sort of proves my point.


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## moXJO (17 July 2020)

basilio said:


> How about some perspective on the roles of the US and China in terms of wars  and foreign interventions around the globe ?
> 
> In our recent past past the US invaded Iraq on trumped up lies (weapons of mass destruction..) and proceeded to totally destroy a nation. Cost them 2 Trillion dollars and rising.
> 
> ...



Iraqi already had numerous breeches before the weapons accusations. 

Afghanistan was housing al Qaeda via the Taliban. I suppose you thought ISIS was a peaceful hugs movement. 

Deflection of "the US is worse" with half baked facts isn't cutting it.

How many millions died under mao 35 million plus and that's their own people. Including the massacres and you could add another 5 million.


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## Smurf1976 (17 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Your digging into an interminable can of worms their Smurf



Most certainly.

I don't have the answers but it's much the same as any situation where someone's doing something "unacceptable" isn't it?

There are numerous situations where violation of some law is ignored since the conflict resulting from enforcing it is seen as worse than the offence being committed. The problem though is how far is too far?

How much can we tolerate in the name of avoiding consequences before it's too much?

I don't know the answers but I can see this being pushed until that point is reached.


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## DB008 (21 July 2020)

As bellenuit pointed out in Post #245, is this history repeating itself?

​


Interestingly, there aren't any protests over this, anywhere?


*China's ambassador challenged on treatment of Uighurs*​London: China's ambassador to Britain says he cannot rule out cases of Uighur women being sterilised in the Xinjiang region, after being confronted with footage of blindfolded and handcuffed prisoners being herded onto trains in Xinjiang on live television.

Liu Xiaoming appeared on _The Andrew Marr Show_ on Sunday, to warn Britain that it would face a "resolute response" if it followed in the footsteps of the United States in sanctioning Chinese Communist Party officials over human rights abuses in Xinjiang, where more than one million Uighurs are thought to be imprisoned in re-education camps.​
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...-uighur-prisoner-footage-20200720-p55dij.html​


----------



## dutchie (21 July 2020)

President Xi Claims Uighurs Were Being Loaded Onto Trains For A 'Surprise Trip To Disneyland'

BEIJING—China has responded to allegations that Uighurs are being loaded onto trains and taken to concentration camps.


President Xi said Monday that the Uighurs are being rounded up, blindfolded, and loaded onto trains for a "surprise trip to Disneyland." According to the president of the Communist country, the minority group was corralled and put into trains and then taken to Shanghai Disneyland Park, where they got to ride the Peter Pan ride, Dumbo, the carousel, and more.

*But, per order of President Xi, all Winnie the Pooh rides and references have been removed from the park.*

"We just wanted to surprise them with a trip to the happiest place on earth," Xi said at a press conference. "Is that a crime? Well, I will have to check. It might be. But still, it would not be a crime for us. *I mean, we write the rules. That means we cannot break them. That is science."*

Ten frightened-looking scientists were then brought on stage to confirm Xi's statement. Nine out of ten said he was correct. The tenth has since gone missing, reportedly on a trip to Disneyland.

Disney also backed China's claims, saying that "whatever President Xi said is 110% true."

https://babylonbee.com/

*Don't buy made in China.*


----------



## explod (21 July 2020)

China is commercialising, buying (by private individuals) into large areas of farmland and other businesses in Australia. Many of their students here are marrying Australians (have two relations have done that recently) flocking our universities, down a bit of late due to virus and Aussie Govmint being influenced by the Seppos.

However as America continues to prop up everything with money printing and little if any productivity behind it will soon be broke and a third world country.

We need to take care not to push China too hard in my opinion, Britain is too far away and just about broke also.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2020)

The world did a deal with Iran.

The USA through Trump reneged on the deal and put in strong sanctions as well as threatened them.
Result: China to set up military base in Iran, what a disaster! What a fool we have leading the western world

https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/iran-and-china-on-verge-of-a-huge-deal-thank-trump


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2020)

IMO the real issue surrounding China is, they really have made the perfect capitalist system like we had 200 years ago, make everything with slave labour wages and everything becomes a profit.
The problem is we outlawed it a century ago, but now everyone supports it by purchasing their stuff and the manufacturers outsource their production there.
Funny at the same time, we are marching in the streets and pulling down statues over the very same issues.
Weird how history repeats and no one can see it IMO.
Also the only one saying anything about it is derided by the media.
Its a strange world, the loudest know the least and the media gives them encouragement, it has to end badly.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (24 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO the real issue surrounding China is, they really have made the perfect capitalist system like we had 200 years ago, make everything with slave labour wages and everything becomes a profit.
> The problem is we outlawed it a century ago, but now everyone supports it by purchasing their stuff and the manufacturers outsource their production there.
> Funny at the same time, we are marching in the streets and pulling down statues over the very same issues.
> Weird how history repeats and no one can see it IMO.




History may not exactly repeat, however it certainly rhymes.


----------



## macca (24 July 2020)

yep, when you can buy a new toaster at KMart for $7.51 someone is not getting paid

The raw materials are purchased OS then shipped to China, then freighted to the factory, processed and made into raw metals, these metals are then processed into components, painted, assembled, packaged, freighted back to the wharf in a container, then sent to Australia, the container unpacked at our rates of pay, then freighted to KMart warehouse all for about ~$5, they then sell it for $7.51 including GST

Someone ain't getting paid a living wage............................


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (24 July 2020)

macca said:


> yep, when you can buy a new toaster at KMart for $7.51 someone is not getting paid
> 
> The raw materials are purchased OS then shipped to China, then freighted to the factory, processed and made into raw metals, these metals are then processed into components, painted, assembled, packaged, freighted back to the wharf in a container, then sent to Australia, the container unpacked at our rates of pay, then freighted to KMart warehouse all for about ~$5, they then sell it for $7.51 including GST
> 
> Someone ain't getting paid a living wage............................




It is much cheaper to live in China though.


----------



## DB008 (25 July 2020)

Anyone surprised?

*Chinese diplomat accused of spying operation in US used to work in Australia*​A Chinese diplomat accused of using fake identification documents in the United States was until last year the second-most-senior figure inside China's embassy in Canberra, where he met regularly with Australian politicians.

Cai Wei, the Chinese Consul-General in the city of Houston, is refusing orders by the Trump administration to close the diplomatic compound which is suspected of running sophisticated espionage activities.

Between 2014 and 2019, the career diplomat served as the Deputy Chief of Mission at the Chinese embassy in Australia, and had previously worked in other posts including the five-eyes intelligence partner country Canada.

In 2018, the ABC revealed Cai Wei used a dinner gathering with Labor MPs in Canberra to strongly deny the Chinese Communist Party was trying to control foreign students studying in Australia.

The US State Department has accused the Houston consulate of engaging in "subversive behaviour" and says Cai Wei and two other diplomats used fake identification when escorting Chinese travellers through Houston's international airport.

According to the New York Times, investigations into the Houston consulate have included examining attempts to illegally transfer medical research and other sensitive information from institutions in the area.

It has also been accused of plans to persuade more than 50 researchers, professors and academics in the area to turn over tightly held research or information to Chinese institutions, and of coercing Chinese citizens in the United States, whom the Chinese Government has deemed fugitives, to return to their homeland.

On Wednesday, US President Donald Trump said "it's always possible" his administration would close more Chinese missions in the United States.

In response to the US's demand, China has ordered the US to close its consulate in the city of Chengdu.

Earlier this week, firefighters in Houston were reportedly called to the Chinese consulate because papers were being burned, after the United States had given consular workers three days to shut down the office.

In a statement, a US State Department spokesperson said the move was made "in order to protect American intellectual property and Americans' private information".

"The United States will not tolerate the PRC's violations of our sovereignty and intimidation of our people, just as we have not tolerated the PRC's unfair trade practices, theft of American jobs, and other egregious behaviour."

On Wednesday, Republican senator Marco Rubio, a member of the US Intelligence and Foreign Relations committees, tweeted that the office is the "central node of the Communist Party's vast network of spies & influence operations in the United States".​
​
​


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...-consulate-used-to-work-in-australia/12490040
​


----------



## explod (25 July 2020)

"If there’s one thing you should take away from this report, it’s that _things are never going to be the same between us_.

And because China was and still is the single biggest driver of the Australian economy, that’s a big deal.

While it lasted, we were strange bedfellows.

Australia, a liberal democracy, population 25 million.

China, a communist state, population 1.3 billion.

But for many years, this strange marriage worked.

China got resources, goods and services. And we got to share in their insane growth.

Well, the marriage is over.

And this divorce is getting more bitter _by the week_.

You might think that a break in the Chinese-Australia economic nexus is the last thing on your worry list right now.

So much other scary stuff is going on. Surely China slapping massive tariffs on Australian barley…or blacklisting our meat producers…or telling its students not to come here because we’re ‘racist’…is the least of your problems?

You couldn’t be more wrong.

*I’m convinced that what’s unfolding here is the CENTRAL economic problem for Australia. *

*Yes, even bigger and more far-reaching than the virus itself. *

*Because the consequences of this divorce will be felt decades after COVID-19 has finally ebbed away…"

"Get nicked" ahummm.*


https://pro.portphillippublishing.com.au/p/w7smschina/MSMSW704/?customerNumber=000051949511&amp&campaignId=d1190fe3-9f49-4c8f-accd-daead5569fc5&r=eml&experimentId=0c57f87b-3cec-43fc-9336-6917e806e0a0&vid=kbHLoO&utm_campaign=dedicated-250720-sms-china-divorce-to-dr-b-e3&utm_source=blueshift&utm_medium=email&utm_content=dedicated-250720-sms-china-divorce-to-dr-b-e3&bsft_clkid=71c227ed-025b-40a9-9a04-4b9f7e1bf9e9&bsft_uid=f8763681-4a89-4346-b88b-a95caeaa0568&bsft_mid=68b2214e-8e56-4f87-b022-51d3a635a145&bsft_eid=0c57f87b-3cec-43fc-9336-6917e806e0a0&bsft_utid=f8763681-4a89-4346-b88b-a95caeaa0568-DR-AUS&bsft_link_id=93&bsft_mime_type=html&bsft_ek=2020-07-24T22:35:17Z&h=true


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2020)

explod said:


> "If there’s one thing you should take away from this report, it’s that _things are never going to be the same between us_.
> 
> And because China was and still is the single biggest driver of the Australian economy, that’s a big deal.
> 
> ...



I shared your view and know who is getting nicked..


----------



## dutchie (25 July 2020)

explod said:


> "If there’s one thing you should take away from this report, it’s that _things are never going to be the same between us_.
> 
> And because China was and still is the single biggest driver of the Australian economy, that’s a big deal.
> 
> ...




Armegeddon is coming to Australia but for a subscription of $149 (discounted to $69) you can save yourself.

Definitely get nicked.


----------



## explod (25 July 2020)

dutchie said:


> Armegeddon is coming to Australia but for a subscription of $149 (discounted to $69) you can save yourself.
> 
> Definitely get nicked.



Feel for you ole Pal


----------



## Value Collector (25 July 2020)

macca said:


> yep, when you can buy a new toaster at KMart for $7.51 someone is not getting paid
> 
> The raw materials are purchased OS then shipped to China, then freighted to the factory, processed and made into raw metals, these metals are then processed into components, painted, assembled, packaged, freighted back to the wharf in a container, then sent to Australia, the container unpacked at our rates of pay, then freighted to KMart warehouse all for about ~$5, they then sell it for $7.51 including GST
> 
> Someone ain't getting paid a living wage............................




those of us that own FMG shares are certainly getting paid.

I for one wish China all the best, and am happy to keep sending them Iron Ore.


----------



## dutchie (25 July 2020)

explod said:


> Feel for you ole Pal



Another sucker rolls in. Quick get in for $69 before they raise the price, don't forget the knife set too.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2020)

I had to delete most of my post because I wasn't wearing glasses and thought the thread said
*It's time to tell China to get Nickel*
​As you were.
I'm staying mum on Western Areas.


----------



## dutchie (25 July 2020)

*Australia makes a big move in its ongoing dispute with Beijing as it declares controversial islands AREN'T Chinese territory - just days after Aussie ships were confronted by China's navy in the hotly contested area*

*Australia filed a new declaration at the United Nations in New York on Friday *
*They rejected the claims made by China to several parts of the South China Sea *
*The declaration said claims to Spratly Islands and Parcel Islands were 'invalid' *
*This will anger Beijing as the relationship worsens between the two countries*
*https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...oversial-islands-ARENT-Chinese-territory.html*


----------



## DB008 (25 July 2020)

Chinese propaganda in full swing.

Open in google Chrome, select translate.

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/china-censorship-olympics-2008.html

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/china-green-dam-censorship-negotiation-2008.pdf


----------



## Miner (25 July 2020)

Interesting thread - getting china nicked.
So all the metal mining companies in Australia will get nicked. China will go to Africa and Brazil. They surely already sourced the alternatives.
So our cheap products will no more come from China and we will not have money to buy goods made in Australia and Europe either.
Our unions will never negotiate to accept wages as paid by Chinese Companies working in Australia. Still Sunday and Saturday penalty rates will be there.
Manufacturers and Businesses would continue to outsource to countries like Philippines, India, and others.
Universities will get broke because Ausssie kids will enjoy surfing, doles than going to universities. People from China will stop coming and funny enough USA will open the doors. Trump understands money more than us.
We would be making paper tigers and join oratory to hate yellow race, black race and then fight among ourselves with strong division between West and East Coast.
What a fun time to get nicked ourselves


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2020)

I have been following the Tik Tok happenings in the USA.
Trump is forcing a sale to Microsoft but the interesting thing is that he wants the Feds to get a cut from the sale because he arranged the deal. Some people are saying this is extortion and against the Constitution, pretty sure Alexander Hamilton wouldn't be happy.

To quote Trump:
"The United States should be reimbursed or paid because without the United States they don't have anything. It's a little bit like the landlord-tenant. Without a lease the tenant has nothing. So they pay what is called key money or they pay something."

Its a deal they can't refuse. If it happened in Argentina we would protest.

Love to see someone defend this. I wont argue. Just keep notes.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I have been following the Tik Tok happenings in the USA.
> Trump is forcing a sale to Microsoft but the interesting thing is that he wants the Feds to get a cut from the sale because he arranged the deal. Some people are saying this is extortion and against the Constitution, pretty sure Alexander Hamilton wouldn't be happy.
> 
> To quote Trump:
> ...



First off let's start with tic tok:
https://www.boredpanda.com/tik-tok-...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Its malware dressed up...

As for the trump deal it's probably illegal and sounded like a brainfart. Who knows though it might have been to shake the Chinese to the table. Im not up to speed on specific details.Did we expect something different though.
The bigger play (I suspect) is to go hard on China. They have stolen western tech for years at extreme cost to us. Looks like its starting to turn as the cold war heats up.



> Love to see someone defend this. I wont argue. Just keep notes.



I've noticed a bit of change in attitude lately and a more aggressive stance. 

The "just keep notes" sounds like a list of detractors to hang at a later date
Don't sweat it knobby he's gone in November.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> First off let's start with tic tok:
> https://www.boredpanda.com/tik-tok-...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic
> 
> Its malware dressed up...
> ...




Just want to see if the Constitution is worth anything anymore.


----------



## dutchie (5 August 2020)

Trump should get a spotters fee.


----------



## bellenuit (5 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> Trump should get a spotters fee.




He will, one way or another.


----------



## dutchie (5 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


> He will, one way or another.



It's always good if you can get a little something on the side if you are a politician.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (5 August 2020)

East Turkestan - A million Uighurs in detention


----------



## Dona Ferentes (5 August 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53650246


----------



## basilio (5 August 2020)

Horrific story on China  Dona.
Needs to be known.


----------



## basilio (5 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> Trump should get a spotters fee.




He's looking for the enforcers  cut. I understand the going rate for Mob protection and enforcement is 50%.


----------



## basilio (5 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Its a deal they can't refuse. If it happened in Argentina we would protest.




If any other country attempted to take this course of action against a US multi national over perceived malpractice  the government would not survive the week.

In US terms this would be seen as a declaration of war.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just want to see if the Constitution is worth anything anymore.



Which law is he about to break? 
Do you have details on exactly what he is going to do?


----------



## Joe90 (9 August 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> East Turkestan - A million Uighurs in detention



Recommended reading, I find this very disturbing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/china-ai-surveillance/614197/


----------



## dutchie (10 August 2020)

*China leader Xi Jinping slammed for his ‘wolf warrior’ tactics*
Key generals have attacked Xi Jinping for squandering China’s big chance. They say his tactics have ruined their chances of world domination.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...s/news-story/46a01fa8a30eba1a7cad0e217c726d23


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 August 2020)

no moral compass



> Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei built a data centre in Papua New Guinea, which exposed secret government files to being stolen, according to a report that catalogues Beijing's efforts to spy on the Pacific nation.The report, provided to the Australian government, noted outdated encryption software was deployed by Huawei, while firewall settings were insufficient for a centre designed to store the entire data archive of the PNG government. "It is assessed with high confidence that data flows could be easily intercepted," said the 2019 report on PNG's National Data Centre.  "*Remote access would not be detected by security settings.."*



https://www.afr.com/companies/telec...ta-centre-built-to-spy-on-png-20200810-p55k7w


----------



## basilio (11 August 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> no moral compass
> 
> 
> https://www.afr.com/companies/telec...ta-centre-built-to-spy-on-png-20200810-p55k7w




Have we forgotten about PRISM ?  The exposure of world wide spying the US on practically all internet traffic ?

*Media disclosure of PRISM*
Further information: Global surveillance disclosure
PRISM was publicly revealed when classified documents about the program were leaked to journalists of _The Washington Post_ and _The Guardian_ by Edward Snowden – at the time an NSA contractor – during a visit to Hong Kong.[1][2] The leaked documents included 41 PowerPoint slides, four of which were published in news articles.[1][2]

The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012.[22] The speaker's notes in the briefing document reviewed by _The Washington Post_ indicated that "98 percent of PRISM production is based on Yahoo, Google, and Microsoft".[1]

The slide presentation stated that much of the world's electronic communications pass through the U.S., because electronic communications data tend to follow the least expensive route rather than the most physically direct route, and the bulk of the world's internet infrastructure is based in the United States.[15] The presentation noted that these facts provide United States intelligence analysts with opportunities for intercepting the communications of foreign targets as their electronic data pass into or through the United States.[2][15]

Snowden's subsequent disclosures included statements that government agencies such as the United Kingdom's GCHQ also undertook mass interception and tracking of internet and communications data[23] – described by Germany as "nightmarish" if true[24] – allegations that the NSA engaged in "dangerous" and "criminal" activity by "hacking" civilian infrastructure networks in other countries such as "universities, hospitals, and private businesses",[13] and alleged that compliance offered only very limited restrictive effect on mass data collection practices (including of Americans) since restrictions "are policy-based, not technically based, and can change at any time", adding that "Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications",[13] with numerous self-granted exceptions, and that NSA policies encourage staff to assume the benefit of the doubt in cases of uncertainty.[25][26][27]


----------



## Beaches (18 August 2020)

_
Treasury Wine Estates Ltd (ASX: TWE) has been advised that the Chinese Ministry of Commerce has initiated an anti-dumping investigation into Australian wine exports into China
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200818/pdf/44lm2gc6knd8vh.pdf_​


----------



## Lucky777 (19 August 2020)

I’ll be travelling to China next year, see what the real truth is, hopefully!


----------



## dutchie (26 August 2020)

Josh is on board to protect Australia's interest. China, get nicked. 

*Plan for China's Mengniu to buy Lion Dairy ditched after Josh Frydenberg labels sale 'contrary to national interest'*

*https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/lion-dairy-china-mengniu-deal-off/12592534*


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2020)

Lucky777 said:


> I’ll be travelling to China next year, see what the real truth is, hopefully!



Lived there as fifo for 2 years in Shenzhen, feel free to msg me if i can help


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Lived there as fifo for 2 years in Shenzhen, feel free to msg me if i can help



I keep getting spammed with ads on YouTube about the "Shenzhen Secret"

WTF is that all about? Any idea?


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> I keep getting spammed with ads on YouTube about the "Shenzhen Secret"
> 
> WTF is that all about? Any idea?





wayneL said:


> I keep getting spammed with ads on YouTube about the "Shenzhen Secret"
> 
> WTF is that all about? Any idea?



, No idea, never heard of before, are we talking economy, slimming diet, online brides?


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> , No idea, never heard of before, are we talking economy, slimming diet, online brides?



I guess it's one of those "send me 5k and I'll teach you how to get rich" type things.

Never clicked through so dunno.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2020)

The continual harassment by China of everything Australian that they can get their hands on is overblown and a clear political attack.

It's about time that we responded and cancelled their lease on the port of Darwin and returned it to where it belongs, the Australian government.

Enough is enough.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The continual harassment by China of everything Australian that they can get their hands on is overblown and a clear political attack.
> 
> It's about time that we responded and cancelled their lease on the port of Darwin and returned it to where it belongs, the Australian government.
> 
> Enough is enough.




The 99 year lease is worth about $500 MILLION, but Australia makes More than about $500M a month selling Iron Ore to China, let’s not upset the Apple cart.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The 99 year lease is worth about $500 MILLION, but Australia makes More than about $500M a month selling Iron Ore to China, let’s not upset the Apple cart.




The apples are already upset !

So they only pay $5 million a year lease ?

What idiot sold it off that cheap ?


----------



## Beaches (1 September 2020)

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute, a defence and strategic policy thinktank, today issued a paper that tracked 152 instances of China’s “coercive diplomacy” over the past decade that stretched across 27 countries as well as the European Union.


----------



## againsthegrain (1 September 2020)

> *Chinese newspaper claims Australia becoming ‘poor white trash of Asia’*





https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...a/news-story/2f40905a546669d13a81d9dcd987ae36


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So they only pay $5 million a year lease ?
> 
> What idiot sold it off that cheap ?




No they paid over $500 Million upfront on day one + $200 Million in upgrades over the next 25 years, (they were the highest bidder) which is worth about $25 Million per year over the 99 years, I am sure they would have loved to only have to pay $5 Million per year if they could.

The time value of money means that $500 Million up front is worth closer to $25 Million per year.

eg. if they only had to pay $5 million per year, they could take their $500 Million, invest it a 5% earn $25 Million and buy 5 ports, and those 5 ports would have earnings etc.

Instead they had to tie up the whole $500 Million in one longterm lease.

--------------

Have you seen the Port? it's alot smaller than most people would imagine, and the price paid is about 50 times what it earned in the last year, thats 50 times earnings and its for a lease, not even a free hold.

there is a reason no one else wanted it.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No they paid over $500 Million upfront on day one + $200 Million in upgrades over the next 25 years, (they were the highest bidder) which is worth about $25 Million per year over the 99 years, I am sure they would have loved to only have to pay $5 Million per year if they could.
> 
> The time value of money means that $500 Million up front is worth closer to $25 Million per year.
> 
> ...




Didn't realise it was that small.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Didn't realise it was that small.




Meanwhile the port of Brisbane was sold for $2.1 Billion only 4 times more than what china paid for Darwin, (15 times annual earnings instead of 50 like Darwin) and it handles volume of freight many times larger, and services a city many times larger, the port of Brisbane also as huge expansion capacity.


----------



## dutchie (1 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No they paid over $500 Million upfront on day one + $200 Million in upgrades over the next 25 years, (they were the highest bidder) which is worth about $25 Million per year over the 99 years, I am sure they would have loved to only have to pay $5 Million per year if they could.
> 
> The time value of money means that $500 Million up front is worth closer to $25 Million per year.
> 
> ...



Knowing China they will probably keep building islands from the mainland till they get to the port and then claim that Australia is traditionally part of China.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

dutchie said:


> Knowing China they will probably keep building islands from the mainland till they get to the port and then claim that Australia is traditionally part of China.




Talking about reclaiming land, look at what the Brisbane port is doing, its going to be huge, again this makes the Darwin port look tiny.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2020)

So who owns Brisbane Port ?

https://www.smh.com.au/national/port-of-brisbane-sold-for-21-billion-20101110-17n7d.html


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So who owns Brisbane Port ?
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/port-of-brisbane-sold-for-21-billion-20101110-17n7d.html




a bunch of super funds mainly, and the Queensland governments investment arm owns a bit too.


----------



## IFocus (1 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No they paid over $500 Million upfront on day one + $200 Million in upgrades over the next 25 years, (they were the highest bidder) which is worth about $25 Million per year over the 99 years, I am sure they would have loved to only have to pay $5 Million per year if they could.
> 
> The time value of money means that $500 Million up front is worth closer to $25 Million per year.
> 
> ...






Really makes it a strategic position which is worrying at some level.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

IFocus said:


> Really makes it a strategic position which is worrying at some level.




I think they are just trying to get access to any real assets than can, I guess a 2% inflation hedges return on a port is better than owning negative yield USA fiat bonds.


----------



## DB008 (2 September 2020)

Importation of Chinese seafood should be banned with immediate effect.

It's not bad enough that they wiped out the prawn industry a few times with white spot disease, but undercutting our own steroid free, ocean caught seafood, is just not on. We don't need their inferior products here.

Maybe also stop exporting of our baby formula too.



*Petition calls for Coles and Woolworths to bring in*
*change to protect Aussie producers*​
In response to the petition, a Woolworths spokesperson told Yahoo News Australia it understood “how important” supporting Australian businesses was to its customers.

Yet the spokesperson pointed to its current layout in-store to which they say allows Woolworths shoppers to easily navigate Australian produce.

“Our stores are carefully laid out aisle by aisle to make the weekly shop as simple to navigate as possible for our customers and this will continue to be our approach,” the spokesperson said.

“We follow strict Country of Origin requirements across our stores and always encourage customers to read the labelling to make informed choices.”​

https://au.news.yahoo.com/petition-coles-woolworths-australian-aisle-061529116.html

.​


----------



## dutchie (2 September 2020)

DB008 said:


> Importation of Chinese seafood should be banned with immediate effect.
> ​




I do not and would not buy any food from China, no matter how cheap. Way too risky.


----------



## dutchie (13 September 2020)

*Australia's top diplomat sounds warning about rocky relations with China: Foreign Affairs head says we must draw a line in the sand before nation finds itself on 'a very slippery slope'*


*One of Australia's top diplomats has issued a warning about relations with China *
*Frances Adamson, 59, said Australia needed to stand up to the Asian power *
*She said China was becoming aggressive and threatening Australian interests  *










						Australia's top diplomat sounds warning about relations with China
					

Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade secretary Frances Adamson, 59, said it was now more important than ever to stand up to the Asian powerhouse.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## bellenuit (21 September 2020)

*China to lose access to Swedish-owned satellites in Australia due to 'complex' relationship*









						China to lose access to Swedish-owned satellite trackers in Australia due to 'complex' market
					

China will lose access to two important and strategic space satellite-tracking stations in Australia, with their Swedish owners citing the "complexity" of doing business with Beijing.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## DB008 (23 September 2020)

Talk about insecurity from Xi...


*Ren Zhiqiang - who called Chinese president a 'clown' - jailed for 18 years*​
Former real estate mogul was investigated after criticising Xi Jinping over his handling of the coronavirus pandemic​​China has sentenced an influential former property executive and critic of President Xi Jinping to 18 years in prison for corruption.​​Ren Zhiqiang, the former chairman of Huayuan, a state-owned real estate group, was also fined 4.2m yuan, Beijing No. 2 Intermediate Court said on its website on Tuesday.​​The court verdict said the 69-year-old “voluntarily and truthfully confessed all his crimes”, and would not appeal the court’s decision.​​Rights campaigners accuse Xi and the Communist party of using corruption charges as a way to silence dissent.​​Ren, an influential critic of the Chinese Communist party who suggested president Xi Jinping was a “clown” over his handling of the coronavirus outbreak, was put under investigation in April for “serious violations of discipline and the law”.​​The retired property executive went missing in March after writing a critical essay about the outbreak. At the time, Ren’s friends told Reuters they had not been able to contact him, and they were “extremely anxious”.​​His essay took aim at a speech Xi made on 23 February, and said it revealed a “crisis of governance” in the party. While it did not mention Xi by name, Ren reportedly wrote that he saw “not an emperor standing there exhibiting his ‘new clothes’, but a clown stripped naked who insisted on continuing being emperor”.​​“The reality shown by this epidemic is that the party defends its own interests, the government officials defend their own interests, and the monarch only defends the status and interests of the core,” a translated version of the essay said.​​In 2016, Ren was put on probation for a year as punishment for his public criticism of government policy. His social media accounts, which had tens of millions of followers, were shut down.​​Beijing has stepped up its crackdown on civil society since Xi took power in 2012, tightening restrictions on freedom of speech and detaining hundreds of activists and lawyers.​
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...chinese-president-a-clown-jailed-for-18-years​


----------



## DB008 (23 September 2020)

This one is a great read and a really we done piece.

*'You will be put into detention': Former ABC bureau chief tells story of fleeing China for first time*​
I am telling this story for the first time. After my departure from China I was reluctant to report what had happened because I did not want to harm the ABC's operations in China, put staff at risk or threaten the chances of my successor as bureau chief, Sarah Ferguson, being granted a journalist's visa to China.​​But all that changed when Birtles and the Australian Financial Review's Mike Smith fled the country this month.​​There is the kind of surveillance the Chinese government wants you to know about. When I was reporting on the mass detentions of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, for example, the ABC team was surrounded by about 20 security officials, followed by midnight knocks on our hotel room doors and questioning about our daily activities.​​But there is also the hidden cyber surveillance and occasionally I saw it in action.​​One night in the early hours of the morning I woke to see someone remotely controlling my phone and accessing my email account. They searched and found an email from activists in New York that I was CC'd into requesting to have the famous ABC "tank man" footage from the Tiananmen Square massacre given a UNESCO heritage listing.​​The email was left open so I could see it, which I believe was a deliberate attempt to let me know they were watching.​

More on link below...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...ournalist-china-intimidation-birtles/12678610​


----------



## basilio (26 September 2020)

This is how Boston Legal went Back to the Future and handled the Chinese.
"Fear. That's what we do best."


----------



## Knobby22 (5 October 2020)

Front page of  *The Age* (thankfully we still have one Aussie independent paper.)

Deal with China made to build new  Mellbourne trains is with firm that has been banned in USA for using slave Ughar labour.


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## DB008 (9 October 2020)

*Huawei: MPs claim 'clear evidence of collusion' with
Chinese Communist Party*


*There is "clear evidence of collusion" between Huawei and the "Chinese Communist Party apparatus"
a parliamentary inquiry has concluded.*​
And the MPs say the government may need to bring forward a deadline set for the Chinese firm's 5G kit to be removed from the UK's mobile networks.​​Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".​​But the latest accusation poses a further challenge to its business.​​Although the company's options in the UK are now limited, it is still trying to sell its 5G telecoms infrastructure to other parts of Europe and beyond, having invested heavily in the technology.​​"We're sure people will see through these accusations of collusion and remember instead what Huawei has delivered for Britain over the past 20 years," a spokesman for the company said.​​

More on link below...


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112​


----------



## DB008 (12 October 2020)

*China-EU FDI Radar*​

The China-EU FDI Radar is an on-going research initiative aimed at providing greater transparency on Chinese investments in Europe. It currently covers 650+ acquisitions from 2010 up to the present. The data is made available to the public in an interactive map, indicating the level of Chinese state-influence for every acquisition. This indication is provided based on analysis of the ultimate beneficial ownership (UBO) by Datenna.​​​​*Making Chinese acquisitions in Europe more transparent*​​To determine the level of state influence, we used our proprietary algorithm which takes into account the entire shareholder structure, shares being pledged, level of state-control of any investors and other relevant factors. Since we developed this algorithm in-house, the indication of the state influence is to be considered as our professional opinion and should not be used for any investment screening decisions without additional deliberation with us. We are constantly updating the radar with new acquisitions. If you are missing data or spot a mistake, please notify us.​​​*Chinese State-influence*​​Overall our research indicates 161 acquisitions where the Chinese State has a high level of influence (~25%). An acquisition with a high level of government influence (red dot on the map) means that the ultimate controlling shareholder is part of the Chinese government, for instance the State Council of the People’s Republic of China. Additionally for 103 acquisitions (15%) the level of state influence is categorized as medium (orange dot on the map). In these cases the Chinese government has a substantial stake in the acquiring company, but might not necessarily be seen as controlling. Finally, the majority of acquisitions (60%) has a low level of state influence (yellow dot). This indicates the Chinese government has no substantial influence in the acquiring company.​​​*Sectors*​​With 83 acquisitions the machinery sector is the most popular among Chinese investors in Europe. Other large categories are automotive, consumer products, energy, health, ICT and electronics.​​
https://www.datenna.com/china-eu-fdi-radar/​


----------



## wabullfrog (12 October 2020)

__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




Another industry to take a hit


----------



## dutchie (20 October 2020)

Don't buy cheap Chinese sh#t !
Don't buy dear Chinese sh#t !
Don't buy any Chinese sh#t !

Buy Australian, your grandchildren will thank you !


----------



## DB008 (28 October 2020)

Earlier this year

What haven't the Chinese tried to steal...???


*Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases*​


The Department of Justice announced today that the Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department and two Chinese nationals have been charged in connection with aiding the People’s Republic of China.​​Dr. Charles Lieber, 60, Chair of the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology at Harvard University, was arrested this morning and charged by criminal complaint with one count of making a materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statement.  Lieber will appear this afternoon before Magistrate Judge Marianne B. Bowler in federal court in Boston, Massachusetts.​​Yanqing Ye, 29, a Chinese national, was charged in an indictment today with one count each of visa fraud, making false statements, acting as an agent of a foreign government and conspiracy. Ye is currently in China.​​Zaosong Zheng, 30, a Chinese national, was arrested on Dec. 10, 2019, at Boston’s Logan International Airport and charged by criminal complaint with attempting to smuggle 21 vials of biological research to China.  On Jan. 21, 2020, Zheng was indicted on one count of smuggling goods from the United States and one count of making false, fictitious or fraudulent statements.  He has been detained since Dec. 30, 2019.​

More on link below...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harv...ationals-charged-three-separate-china-related​


----------



## dutchie (1 December 2020)

What hypocrites.

*DON'T BUY CHINESE GOODS.*

China doubles down on sick doctored image over alleged war crimes in Afghanistan
Chinese officials have slammed Australia for “barbarism” and said it should be ashamed in a stinging response to demands for an apology over a faked picture.









						China trolls Australia with sick fake image
					

Chinese officials have delivered a stinging response to demands for an apology over a shocking faked photograph of an Australian soldier, accusing Australia of “barbarism” and saying the government should feel ashamed.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## T0BY (1 December 2020)

Waste of time Scott asking for an apology. China and propaganda go hand in hand.


----------



## dutchie (2 December 2020)

After that disgusting tweet it really is time to tell China to get nicked.

*'Twenty years ago we did no trade with China and Australia was a pretty good place': Senator says we can stand up to 'bullying' Beijing and find other trade partners*

*Queensland Senator Matt Canavan says Australia must diversify trading partners*
*Canavan said Australia needs business partners who are 'friends', not 'bullies'*
*Comments come as relationship between both nations continues to deteriorate*
*In wake of pandemic, enormous tariffs have been slapped on Australian goods*
*China was Australia's seventh biggest trading partner in 2000 well behind Japan*
*Senator Canavan claimed Australia 'basically did no trade with China' in 2000 *









						Aussie senator calls for return to Australia's trading heyday
					

Queensland Senator Matt Canavan said Australia did not need trading partners who were 'bullies'.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				





20 years ago

*Australian trade in 2000*
1. Japan: $25.3billion
2. United States: $16.7billion
3.  South Korea: $9.9billion
4. New Zealand: $9.3billion
5.  Singapore: $8billion
6.  UK: $7.6billion
7. China: $6.9billion


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2020)

dutchie said:


> After that disgusting tweet it really is time to tell China to get nicked.
> 
> *'Twenty years ago we did no trade with China and Australia was a pretty good place': Senator says we can stand up to 'bullying' Beijing and find other trade partners*
> 
> ...



The problem is China said we will build your stuff (white goods, clothing, foot ware, electronic equipment, cutlery, kitchen wares, furniture, actually anything you want) we will build it for nothing, just build your factories here we like to serve.

Well the rest is history, the companies that manufactured in the first world relocated to China and the profits boomed.
Australia was fine, because China needed our resources and still does, for now.
But when they don't need our resources, the writing is on the wall, where we are heading.

I always remember a couple of our most highly regarded politicians in the 1980's,


_Minister Hawke stated: 

Mr Speaker, the most powerful spur to greater competitiveness is further tariff reduction. 
Tariffs have been one of the abiding features of the Australian economy since Federation. Tariffs protected Australian industry by making foreign goods more expensive here; and the supposed virtues of this protection became deeply embedded in the psyche of the nation. 
But what in fact was the result? 
Inefficient industries that could not compete overseas; and 
Higher prices for consumers and higher costs for our efficient primary producers. Worse still, tariffs are a regressive burden-the poorest Australians are hurt more than the richest.(16) 

Treasurer Keating was equally damning of the tariff: 

The package of measures announced today ends forever Australia's sorry association with the tariff as a device for industrial development. 
By turning its back on tariffs, Australia will be further propelled in its quest for international trade and efficiency, a search begun with the opening up of the economy in 1983 when we floated the dollar and abolished exchange controls. 
As in all nations before it, the pursuit of trade and competition has instilled in Australia a thirst for greater efficiency at home and a larger dominion abroad_.

_By the end of the Keating Government in 1996, most tariffs had been reduced to five per cent and the scheduled reductions in tariffs for PMV and for TCF up to the year 2000 are continuing as planned. The Howard Government's commitments concerning tariff assistance for these two industries beyond 2000 and also Australia's long term commitment to free trade under APEC are discussed in Industry Policy in Australia, September 1999_ .

Well rather than improve our competitiveness, it just relocated our manufacturing to China and the ones that survived were closed by cheap imports.
The only ones who made money, was big business that relocated manufacturing and put Australian workers out of jobs. Also miners who rode the back of the Chinese manufacturing boom.
So in reality we got what we deserved, either we had to compete with cheap labour countries, or watch our manufacturing jobs disappear.
Funny how history has since been re written and most think it was a Liberal initiative, to help big business and screw the worker. 

Reference:




__





						Australian Manufacturing: A Brief History of Industry Policy and Trade Liberalisation
					

Research Paper 7 1999-2000 Michael Emmery Economics, Commerce and Industrial Relations Group 19 October 1999 Contents Major Issues Introduction Australia's Experience with Trade Liberalisation Overseas experience Conclusion Endnotes Glossary APEC	Asia-Pacific Econo




					www.aph.gov.au


----------



## Knobby22 (9 December 2020)

The USA's President simplistic understanding of how trade works and tariffs has led to China having a huge win.
*They have increased exports to the USA by a massive 46% * while simultaneously cutting USA imports increasing the deficit by 37.4 billion a month in China's favour.
The average USA joe has had to pay more due to the tariffs when buying the Chinese goods making them comparatively poorer.

Good job Trump!









						China's record November will further unsettle Australia and the US
					

Economically, China is having a good pandemic. Its latest booming numbers will increase tensions with the US and also carry a disturbing indicator for Australia.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The USA's President simplistic understanding of how trade works and tariffs has led to China having a huge win.
> *They have increased exports to the USA by a massive 46% * while simultaneously cutting USA imports increasing the deficit by 37.4 billion a month in China's favour.
> The average USA joe has had to pay more due to the tariffs when buying the Chinese goods making them comparatively poorer.
> 
> ...



Like I said in another thread, you wont stop people buying cheap $hit and China with a regulated currency can sell it for nothing, so I guess we get what we deserve.
Keep cheering as we go down the big dipper, nothing funnier than watching people cheering their own demise .


----------



## IFocus (9 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The USA's President simplistic understanding of how trade works and tariffs has led to China having a huge win.
> *They have increased exports to the USA by a massive 46% * while simultaneously cutting USA imports increasing the deficit by 37.4 billion a month in China's favour.
> The average USA joe has had to pay more due to the tariffs when buying the Chinese goods making them comparatively poorer.
> 
> ...





An extortionary failure of policy not that there was a coherent one.

Read plenty of Republican economists opinion to the man / women all criticizing the Trump tariff approach  and all pointing out the only losers being US consumers.

It will be interesting to see if the new administration can reverse the deficit trend.

Saw else where a claim of the loss of 200,000 US manufacturing jobs at the same time as well.


----------



## bellenuit (9 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> An extortionary failure of policy not that there was a coherent one.




We have seen this a lot. Trump often says the right things, but he and his administration of incompetent sycophants, are abysmal failures when it comes to implementation. Often on these forums Trump is lauded for "saying the right things" as if that in itself is sufficient to warrant praise.


----------



## IFocus (9 December 2020)

On the local front isnt the Qantas plan to sack 2,000 workers and replace them with a Chinese owned contractor?


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## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> It will be interesting to see if the new administration can reverse the deficit trend.
> 
> Saw else where a claim of the loss of 200,000 US manufacturing jobs at the same time as well.



It certainly will be interesting, to see if the trend reverses, or accelerates.

It may be a good time to introduce Chinese, as a compulsory subject in schools.


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## moXJO (9 December 2020)

You only have a couple of options to get China to revalue the yuan.

1. Plaza accord type deal. But ccp probably unlikely to accept it and raise the yuan.

2. Export Subsidies. China can easily negate these so unlikely to work.

3 Tarrifs and export restrictions. 
These hurt both countries till you go to the extreme. Its a necessary part of the toolkit to open up the revaluation. 

4. National savings and devalue the dollar.
Apparently this pushes capital overseas cheapening the dollar. Makes exports cheaper. And hey, who doesn't want money flowing in. 


Now Trump had a trade deal with China in exchange for cutting the trade war tarrifs. Here's the problem: China bought half of what was agreed. 

So all this talk of "he's stoopidd and done did the wrong thing" is a little simplistic. Biden will most likely use tarrifs if the deal isn't honoured and may possibly go hard to get the yuan revalued. 

The simple fact is China isn't playing by the rules. The problem isn't just Trump. This has been going on for years if not decades. Trumps the one that actually started addressing the issue. Its going to take longer then a bloody year to sort out.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> You only have a couple of options to get China to revalue the yuan.
> 
> 1. Plaza accord type deal. But ccp probably unlikely to accept it and raise the yuan.
> 
> ...




The trouble is that tariffs are a simple solution to a complex problem  and I flagged this months ago.

Many Republicans spoke against this action
The end result is the USA  in a weaker position. Actions of one state against another, unilateral action, without WTO approval weakens the international rule of law effecting the USA and bystanders like us.

The answer is coordinated action from the world through the WTO and the UN. Instead Trump weakened these organisations  There is some of this happening but it needs leadership from the USA and the EU. At present China can do what it likes with no repercussions.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The trouble is that tariffs are a simple solution to a complex problem  and I flagged this months ago.
> 
> Many Republicans spoke against this action
> The end result is the USA  in a weaker position. Actions of one state against another, unilateral action, without WTO approval weakens the international rule of law effecting the USA and bystanders like us.
> ...



I think Trump bombed EU with tarrifs and now EU has retaliated. But it makes it easier for the next few presidents to dial it back to a friendlier position without giving away the farm.

Trump didn't care if he was hated. He saw the US being taken for a ride. And as blunt as some of those policies were, in the long run it makes it easier for the ones that won't stick their neck out and rock the boat.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The trouble is that tariffs are a simple solution to a complex problem  and I flagged this months ago.
> 
> The answer is coordinated action from the world through the WTO and the UN. Instead Trump weakened these organisations  There is some of this happening but it needs leadership from the USA and the EU. At present China can do what it likes with no repercussions.



Well we shall soon find out how effective the WTO and U.N are when Australia fronts up with China, it should be interesting.

The trade imbalance between the U.S and China was $600billion, the problem is most of the stuff was manufactured goods that multinationals outsourced to China from the U.S, why would China or the multinationals want to send the manufacturing back to the U.S?

I know it isn't simple, but the end result is pretty simple. China has become a first world country and the U.S is fast becoming a second world economy, unless China is reigned in the trajectory will continue and Germany will be next. Then who will fund the EU? there is a reason the U.K has jumped ship, they can become fairly self sufficient.


----------



## DB008 (14 December 2020)

Some good news





*Major leak 'exposes' members and 'lifts the lid' on the Chinese Communist Party*​


A major leak containing a register with the details of nearly two million CCP members has occurred – exposing members who are now working all over the world, while also lifting the lid on how the party operates under Xi Jinping, says Sharri Markson.​​Ms Markson said the leak is a register with the details of Communist Party members, including their names, party position, birthday, national ID number and ethnicity.​​“It is believed to be the first leak of its kind in the world,” the Sky News host said.​​“What's amazing about this database is not just that it exposes people who are members of the communist party, and who are now living and working all over the world, from Australia to the US to the UK,” Ms Markson said.​​“But it's amazing because it lifts the lid on how the party operates under President and Chairman Xi Jinping”.​​Ms Markson said the leak demonstrates party branches are embedded in some of the world’s biggest companies and even inside government agencies.​​“Communist party branches have been set up inside western companies, allowing the infiltration of those companies by CCP members - who, if called on, are answerable directly to the communist party, to the Chairman, the president himself,” she said.​​“Along with the personal identifying details of 1.95 million communist party members, mostly from Shanghai, there are also the details of 79,000 communist party branches, many of them inside companies”.​​Ms Markson said the leak is a significant security breach likely to embarrass Xi Jinping.​​“It is also going to embarrass some global companies who appear to have no plan in place to protect their intellectual property from theft. From economic espionage,” she said.​​Ms Markson said the data was extracted from a Shanghai server by Chinese dissidents, whistleblowers, in April 2016, who have been using it for counter-intelligence purposes.​​“It was then leaked in mid-September to the newly-formed international bi-partisan group, the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China - and that group is made up of 150 legislators around the world.​​“It was then provided to an international consortium of four media organisations, The Australian, The Sunday Mail in the UK, De Standaard in Belgium and a Swedish editor, to analyse over the past two months, and that's what we've done".​​Ms Markson said it, “is worth noting that there's no suggestion that these members have committed espionage - but the concern is over whether Australia or these companies knew of the CCP members and if so have any steps been taken to protect their data and people”.​

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001



.​Edit - List if anyone is interested. (rumours online that this list has something to do with Hunter Biden's laptop/HDD (2nd/3rd HDD), also that evidence that CCP and Covid-19 was a China play that was intentionally released)

https://gitlab.com/shanghai-ccp-member-db/shanghai-ccp-member-db

https://f.maga.host/DGieOgS.pdf

https://github.com/ccpdata/ShanghaiCCPMember

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1pQwAJnP1zEd1ZVLw50NPcIRY0pP5Wq44
​


----------



## satanoperca (14 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> also that evidence that CCP and Covid-19 was a China play that was intentionally released)




And the West played into it perfectly, Chinese execute plans so well, we could learn from them.

I think they didn't even believe that it would work so well, destabilizing Western Society.


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2020)

China has an authoritarian political system controlled by the Chinese Communist Party with Xi at its head and determine to remain so.

For this to remain the case the Chinese need enemy's so the great leader can lead them safely through onto greater heights and power.

All the while reminding the Chinese people of the great humiliation the western world imposed on China. 

Maintaining power at any cost is the very 1st priority and its through this lens any interactions need to be viewed, everything else is fluff.

The current issues are likely to be only the start leading into greater and real problems between China and Australia  particularly if Australia's pollical elite keep playing to domestic politics.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 December 2020)

China has clearly breached our so called free trade agreement , now is a great time to relieve ourselves of this odious burden on our national sovereignty, tear it up and start imposing tariffs on China's goods that compete with out our own producers.


----------



## bellenuit (16 December 2020)

A couple of weeks ago I was going to write a post about a hypothetical but very dangerous scenario that I though was feasible. The situation I was going to describe was a scenario in which Chinese fishing boats encroach Australian exclusive fishing waters and start fishing there, with backup Chinese naval support just outside Australian territorial waters. I was going to ask what our reaction should be. Do we do nothing and effectively relinquish our fishing grounds to China. Do we forcibly try to stop and board the fishing boats and risk a confrontation. Although hypothetical, the underlying assumption is that China wants to create a confrontation situation.

Then there is now this:

*China's plan to build a fish processing facility in the Torres Strait raises alarm over fishing, border security*

*








						'We should be absolutely alarmed': China prepares to move into the Torres Strait
					

China's plan to build a fish processing facility in the Torres Strait has raised concerns over border security and impacts to commercial fishing.




					www.abc.net.au
				



*
_Former PNG government adviser Jeffrey Wall said it was a lot of money to spend in a small community not known for commercial fish stocks.

"We should be absolutely alarmed not only because it is strategically located close to Australia, but there is potential for conflict in the Torres Strait," he said._


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

At least China is starting to elaborate on what they have a gripe about.








						China accuses Australia of breaching free-trade pact by blocking $14b of business deals
					

The Chinese Foreign Ministry said Treasurer Josh Frydenberg's decision to block two deals was a "violation of market economy principles and international trade rules".




					www.theage.com.au
				




I wonder if China will let us buy strategic businesses in China?


----------



## satanoperca (16 December 2020)

*How difficult is the property purchase process in China?*
"There is no private ownership of land in China. One can only obtain rights to use land. A land lease of up to 70 years is usually granted for residential purposes.

Foreigners who have worked or studied in China for at least a year are allowed to buy a home. Foreigners go through supervision procedures for about a week before they are allowed to buy properties in designated areas.

Ownership rules for foreigners and locals were harmonised on a national level in 2001, but the local governments implement the lifting of restrictions. The municipal authorities of Shanghai lifted the restriction on July 2001, Beijing followed on August 2002.

Foreigners cannot be landlords. Property ownership for investment by foreign companies and individuals are prohibited. Chinese living overseas and residents of Hong Kong and Macau are exempt from these restrictions









						Buying costs are moderate in China
					

Property and house buying guide to China. What costs are involved? How complex is the buying process? A step-by-step house buying guide.



					www.globalpropertyguide.com
				



.

So why do we allow them to be landlords and buy here.


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> *How difficult is the property purchase process in China?*
> "There is no private ownership of land in China. One can only obtain rights to use land. A land lease of up to 70 years is usually granted for residential purposes.
> 
> Foreigners who have worked or studied in China for at least a year are allowed to buy a home. Foreigners go through supervision procedures for about a week before they are allowed to buy properties in designated areas.
> ...



This is what when he gives me the crappers mate. It is ideological dissonance.

On the one hand, ideologically, I can see the thinking of allowing people to invest here from other countries like China.

on the other hand if Australians are not allowed to invest in their country, then our ideological largesse becomes asymmetric... and I think that is wrong and against our national interest.

In fact it becomes a little bit sinister in my opinion.

They are also many other layers of that particular onion which act against the interests of our own plebeians.

I have nothing against the Chinese people per se.

I think they are largely culturally congruent with us and I actually really enjoy interacting with my Chinese friends... But The economics of it just doesn't add up in terms of our own national interest.

And for balance, the same applies for any other nationality.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> A couple of weeks ago I was going to write a post about a hypothetical but very dangerous scenario that I though was feasible. The situation I was going to describe was a scenario in which Chinese fishing boats encroach Australian exclusive fishing waters and start fishing there, with backup Chinese naval support just outside Australian territorial waters. I was going to ask what our reaction should be. Do we do nothing and effectively relinquish our fishing grounds to China. Do we forcibly try to stop and board the fishing boats and risk a confrontation. Although hypothetical, the underlying assumption is that China wants to create a confrontation situation.
> 
> Then there is now this:
> 
> ...




Start building a military base in Darwin  reckon and lease it to the Yanks.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Start building a military base in Darwin  reckon and lease it to the Yanks.



We have had it for a while.




__





						RAAF Base Darwin | Royal Australian Air Force
					

RAAF Base Darwin is one of the Air Force's main forward operating bases. It is located 6.5 km north-east of the City of Darwin.




					www.airforce.gov.au
				




Maybe the other option would be, to get Labor in and start kissing butt.😂
On a realistic note, it will probably be a choice of that, or a rapid change to what is considered as normal lifestyle in Australia.
I think we should bite the bullet and get on with value adding here, that will cause a rapid increase in cost of goods, but will end up with a sustainable lifestyle.
ATM we are riding the mining into the ground, when it is done so are we, but whether the general public would accept the re adjustment process, I doubt it. 
Just my thoughts.


----------



## dutchie (17 December 2020)

We need to ban China from our iron ore, once and for all. Short term pain for long time independence. 

(previously posted in wrong thread)


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the other option would be, to get Labor in and start kissing butt.😂




Couldn't resist the dig could you ? 

However, a change of government could mark a turn in direction by China, even if the essential principles remain the same.


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Couldn't resist the dig could you ?
> 
> However, a change of government could mark a turn in direction by China, even if the essential principles remain the same.



If either party comes up with a sensible sustainable way forward, where my grandkids have the same future I and you had, I will vote for them.
ATM neither party seems to have a definitive way forward, in a way the China issue is forcing Australia to develop a long term plan, so the next couple of years should actually force the politicians to earn their keep.
Over the last 40 years politics has been a cruisy job for lazy lawyers IMO, well I think that is all about to change, big time.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If either party comes up with a sensible sustainable way forward, where my grandkids have the same future I and you had, I will vote for them.
> ATM neither party seems to have a definitive way forward, in a way the China issue is forcing Australia to develop a long term plan, so the next couple of years should actually force the politicians to earn their keep.
> Over the last 40 years politics has been a cruisy job for lazy lawyers IMO, well I think that is all about to change, big time.
> Just my opinion.




I can't see a sustainable way forward with China if they keep jerking us around. Disengagement is the best long term strategy in my view in the absence of regime change n China which looks doubtful.

We should be giving preference to our reliable customers and others should join the end of the queue. How much clout we have to dictate conditions is debatable, we have some with iron ore, but ag products are probably over supplied world wide. 

Manufacturing has to be a priority. It's about 4% of gdp now, which is pathetic. Countries who can't make things for themselves are on a hiding to nothing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Manufacturing has to be a priority. It's about 4% of gdp now, which is pathetic. Countries who can't make things for themselves are on a hiding to nothing.



Part of the problem is that management and politics in Australia has been "captured" by those who put words on pages and spend hours arguing over technicalities. There's a place for that but it's not a skill that's of any use at all when it comes to manufacturing and that of itself goes a long way to explaining the disdain such people tend to hold toward it.

If we're going to shift toward manufacturing then we need an overall change in focus far beyond just building a few factories. We need to start valuing technical things and quality as goals in themselves and we need to stop applying courtroom-like thinking to situations where what's required is solutions not blame.

That in practice means change at the top. We need a more diverse background of people in politics, far fewer former lawyers, career politicians and unionists, and much the same in business. There's a place for lawyers sure, I've nothing against them, but our leadership in both politics and business is seriously deficient when it comes to people with any sort of technical or practical background and that itself is a barrier to change. We need to put "technical" on the same pedestal that "law" is on now and we need "strategic thinking" up there with them.

Someone could no doubt express it in better terms than I have but in short, the skill base and way of thinking of our leadership is heavily lopsided. It's not even close to balanced - plot it on one of those "how your mind works" type charts with the 4 boxes and pretty much the entire parliament would be in the same box and rather a lot of business leaders would be there too. We need a much better balance with far more in the other three boxes.


----------



## Macquack (17 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Manufacturing has to be a priority. It's about 4% of gdp now, which is pathetic. Countries who can't make things for themselves are on a hiding to nothing.



My over-simplistic economic theory is that "ALL COSTS ARE LABOUR COSTS". All expenses, rents, fees, charges, R&D expenses, taxes (State and Federal), the resultant profits or losses (including multi-national company profits), at the end of the day, flow on to *individual people*. These costs which become income, may as well stay in the country of origin of the "sale" and benefit the "consumer" who created the sale in the first place.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2020)

Macquack said:


> My over-simplistic economic theory is that "ALL COSTS ARE LABOUR COSTS". All expenses, rents, fees, charges, R&D expenses, taxes (State and Federal), the resultant profits or losses (including multi-national company profits), at the end of the day, flow on to *individual people*. These costs which become income, may as well stay in the country of origin of the "sale" and benefit the "consumer" who created the sale in the first place.




Yep. Politicians listen to business too much who grumble about paying higher wages, but workers are consumers and if you depress their wages you depress their ability to spend which is bad for the economy.


----------



## macca (17 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep. Politicians listen to business too much who grumble about paying higher wages, but workers are consumers and if you depress their wages you depress their ability to spend which is bad for the economy.




Agreed and then the RBA compound the problem by sticking to the antiquated notion that every one owes money.

Many people have had 50 - 70 years to accumulate money and assets, these people are now happy to spend their annual income on lifestyle choices and home maintenance.

In my area a huge percentage of jobs come from BBs doing just this plus the tourists that visit doing the exact same thing.

Now that interest rates are Zero, us and most of our friends have cut our annual spending accordingly.

New building is much the same but the small fill in jobs have slowed dramatically.

This all effects the next generation and the employment of apprentices which effects the economy of the whole area.


----------



## satanoperca (17 December 2020)

We need to stop blaming China, we need to look closer to our own political elite(?).

Rant for the day

To create a productive and livable community/environment/society we need the following or we live in a destructive one:
1. Air - without it, you're dead in three minutes - thankfully that has not been commercialized yet
2. Water - give it a couple of days without it and you're dead. Aussies are lucky, we still have drinkable water available free(?) But we have commercialized it, look at the Murray Darling, which leads to the next point
3. Food - again we are blessed, but even this has been commoditized for overseas consumption
4. Shelter - we screwed up, turned it into a commodity causing a negative feedback loop that affects all generations. Higher wages are required to obtain, interest rates need to be lowered to support it.
A. Baby boomers got to benefit from it, but now unless you own the asset, as a retiree you get f----k all of nothing for your other asset classes to obtain the above that you worked hard for
B. Current generations get to benefit from low, incredibly low interest rates to buy an essential requirement for life (Shelter), but pay through the roof for it.

Stop blaming the Chinese when we allowed our politicians to turn Shelter into a commodity and not something for Australians. FIRB is a joke, I now wonder why we celebrate Anzac day when those that fought for the sovereignty of this country, have over generations, allowed our elected officials to undermine the reason why they went to war and lost their loves, land for the people of the country to be sold to the highest bidder. So many lives lost for nothing.

We will not see innovation or resurrection of manufacturing in Australia again, when we sold one of the core requirements to support it, the ability to provide affordable shelter to the people who call Australia home.

So we only have 3 elements left, they to will be sold to the highest bidder and current and future generations will wonder why.


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2020)

We can point the finger everywhere. Australia as a whole sold itself out.


----------



## dutchie (18 December 2020)

‘2020 has exposed China as a global menace’.


Douglas Murray: 2020 has exposed Communist China as a world menace
Douglas Murray, journalist, author and political commentator shares his opinion with The Sun on a bad year in public relations for 2020. Become a Sun Subscri...
youtube.com


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> We can point the finger everywhere. Australia as a whole sold itself out.



...and currently falling all over ourselves to sell out the last vestige of dignity we have left, our liberty.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2020)

Things are getting a bit dark in China it would seem:









						China's power supply is struggling as winter temperatures plunge. Is the ban on Australian coal to blame?
					

While Australian coal has been the latest victim in Beijing's geopolitical stoush with Canberra, swathes of China are facing power shortages right in the thick of winter.




					www.abc.net.au
				






> The ABC has also seen an online notice to a middle school in Zhejiang, banning staff and students from turning on heating if temperatures exceeded 3 degrees.




I don't know all the details of the situation but roughly 65% of power generation in China is from coal, 17% hydro, 5% wind, 5% nuclear, 3% gas, 3% solar, 2% biofuels and waste. Oil is a minor source at about 0.1%.

Their hydro dams were pretty much full 4 months ago so can't blame that. Can't really blame the wind or sun for being intermittent that's expected. That leaves the reported coal shortage as the likely explanation.

Now about that coal shortage, well if you stop buying the stuff as they seem to have done well then a shortage isn't hugely surprising.....


----------



## IFocus (19 December 2020)

As Keating pointed out Australia requires capital to function either international or internal.

One of Keating's points was superannuation was one way to raise capital internally (one of the few for large amounts).

So most of our capital comes from over seas China being a large contributor, stop that and be happy to take a serious haircut on wealth.

Not trying to state a case but need to be realistic as to the consequences.  

I suspect Australia will need nuclear weapons longer term to fend off a increasingly aggressive China and a increasingly regressive US that some here keep cheering on.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> As Keating pointed out Australia requires capital to function either international or internal.
> 
> One of Keating's points was superannuation was one way to raise capital internally (one of the few for large amounts).
> 
> ...



So, in your opinion, do we embrace China, or the US?


----------



## IFocus (20 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> So, in your opinion, do we embrace China, or the US?





With China we wont get a choice from now on our relationship will only be on their terms.

Their terms are that we kowtow to China.

How we deal with that remains to be seen.

With the US it will depend on US politics and with current policy settings of withdrawing from around the globe once they secured some sort of self sufficiency in oil supply (this actually started pre Trump its not new) Australia could well be stranded (fuel supply 23 days?).

I don't think we will get to chose it will unfold largely out of Australia's control.

I also don't think people truly understand our greatest future risk is staring at us right now.

This from todays ABC re Doug Anthony on the UK dumping us.


"Here we were, their best friend they'd ever had. We'd sent our forces to Gallipoli, we'd sent our forces to France. The second war we came along and gave all the support possible," Mr Anthony fumed decades later.

"And yet here, after supplying you with about 15 years of food at a concessional price, you go and dump us!"









						Doug Anthony, Australia's longest-serving deputy prime minister, dies aged 90
					

Australia's longest-serving former deputy prime minister, Doug Anthony, dies in a nursing home at the age of 90, his family says.




					www.abc.net.au
				





Stan Grant   is worth a read.









						I have spent decades reading, writing and thinking about China. This is where I'd start
					

The world's bloodiest civil war is not the one you think of first but the answer can reveal a lot about the world, writes Stan Grant.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> With China we wont get a choice from now on our relationship will only be on their terms.
> 
> Their terms are that we kowtow to China.
> 
> ...



Yes it is ironic, we bagged the U.K for joining the EU, now there are many bagging them for leaving the EU, just shows you please everyone all the time. 
Australians needs to get on with putting Australia first.
We had manufacturing, both secondary and tertiary, before we decided to outsource it to Asia and remove tariffs.
It might sound wonderful, removing tariffs and having our companies go broke, but in reality how could our workers compete with third world wages.
Well of course they couldn't, everyone knew that, so we now have the quandary that was started in the 1980's.
What do we do when China stops buying our resources?
Maybe Keating the guru has an answer, after all helped cause the problem by removing tariffs, someone should ask him he is never short an answer. 😂
I think we are lucky the Indian dude saved our steel industry, I can see there may well be an opportunity for a resurgence, we will have to sell something.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think we are lucky the Indian dude saved our steel industry, I can see there may well be an opportunity for a resurgence



He's bought TEMCO (the Tasmanian Electro-Metallurgical Company) as well by the way.

TEMCO is the only producer of ferromanganese and silicomanganese in Australia and operates 4 furnaces at Bell Bay, Tasmania. It supplies the domestic market and exports the rest.

Those two materials are both used as alloys in steel production. So he was either going to buy it or be a major customer and he's chosen to buy it.

I'd say he's got a plan yes.


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> He's bought TEMCO (the Tasmanian Electro-Metallurgical Company) as well by the way.
> 
> TEMCO is the only producer of ferromanganese and silicomanganese in Australia and operates 4 furnaces at Bell Bay, Tasmania. It supplies the domestic market and exports the rest.
> 
> ...



Australia the land of opportunity, it is a shame our bigger companies and super funds play the short game, rather than the long game.
Good on the Indian dude IMO.


----------



## qldfrog (21 December 2020)

Putting things right...
I could not help reading some articles lately basically linking the Australian coal ban to blackout and freezing  conditions etc in China;
with a kind of 'teach them well' boasting morale.

From my knowledge 10y ago, this would be pure BS and Ozzie self boasting propaganda:
 the reason: our thermal coal exports were negligible in China vs their consumption, [does not mean negligible for us obviously]

So I went back to my sources of truth: as per covid, climate change, etc:  raw pure beautiful numbers and stats:
the findings are as expected :

1) reducing of thermal coal import was planned months ago: in march2020:
https://www.reuters.com/article/chi...ck-domestic-miners-analysts-say-idUKL4N2D213S

2) 95% of THERMAL coal used in China is domestic, so replacing the aussie THERMAL coal is a non issue
This is actually written black on white in the very misleading article:
ANZ said that though China's domestically sourced thermal coal accounts for 95% of consumption, importing 225 million tonnes in 2019
https://www.spglobal.com/marketinte...amid-confusion-over-beijing-s-orders-60702689
So no, there are no people freezing in China due to the ban on aussie call and no, the ban was not backfiring on China with blackout as a consequence ..
Met coal is a different story and might be an issue but sadly, 20y after the coal boom start, most journos are still blindly unaware of the difference between these 2 black rocks
I believe our Met coal is better than the alternative so Chinese steel will be (even more) low quality, crappy and generating even more pollution.
Now, does anyone believe this will halt China?


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> So no, there are no people freezing in China due to the ban on aussie call and no, the ban was not backfiring on China with blackout as a consequence ..



You may well be right as to the cause but one way or another it does seem that China has a problem with electricity supply at present.

If it's not due to a fuel shortage then it's either generation or transmission problems but there's plenty of reports of the lights going out.

It could of course be that China's economy is far stronger than those in the West were thinking. That is, no disruption to supply as such just not enough of it to cope if the economy's grown substantially in recent months?


----------



## qldfrog (21 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> You may well be right as to the cause but one way or another it does seem that China has a problem with electricity supply at present.
> 
> If it's not due to a fuel shortage then it's either generation or transmission problems but there's plenty of reports of the lights going out.
> 
> It could of course be that China's economy is far stronger than those in the West were thinking. That is, no disruption to supply as such just not enough of it to cope if the economy's grown substantially in recent months?



Probably tge effect of covid stop, growth catching up faster than projects etc, remember these hundreds of new coal power stations being built etc.got stopped in february, and now demand exploding..


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## Smurf1976 (23 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Probably tge effect of covid stop, growth catching up faster than projects etc, remember these hundreds of new coal power stations being built etc.got stopped in february, and now demand exploding..



Whatever the reason, they do seem to have a definite problem:









						China’s effort to punish Australia backfires
					

The towering skyscrapers in Changsha have stopped glowing.




					www.news.com.au
				






> _The Financial Times_ reports dozens of Chinese cities and at least four provinces have imposed rules on electricity use that include residents and businesses cutting how much power they use.




I don't know the details but either they're short on generating capacity or they're short on fuel to run it with (or both). Given that electricity is all pervasive economically, depending on how bad it gets it may well cause some disruption to manufacturing etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Whatever the reason, they do seem to have a definite problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Anyone have a feeling of schadenfreude ?


----------



## qldfrog (23 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Anyone have a feeling of schadenfreude ?



And our side of the fake news/propagands is not stopping.
This morninghttps://www.news.com.au/finance/bus...d/news-story/14052f830be0a48080687e6fb9a8e1e5
If you actually read carefully, they do not actually say that australian coal ban is causing the outage but they imply it fron title to the end.
Which is BS as i hope my previous post has now proven.if you do not believe me, please do your own research,the ban has no link to power shortage in China
The sheeple stuck at home, unable to see family even at chrismas and whose jobs are going in smoke can now feel good and think: teach the bastards well.
The scary bit is that this is the kind of propaganda we prepare the population before wars and similar niceties.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> .if you do not believe me, please do your own research,the ban has no link to power shortage in China



The information out of China is such that I don't think anyone really knows what the cause is, only that there seems to be a problem with supply not meeting demand. Whether that's just a minor glitch due to some unfortunate technical problems or whether it's symptomatic of something far more serious I won't claim to know.

I wouldn't suggest Australians get too cocky about it though. It's not as though we don't have rather a lot of problems in that industry in Australia and a need to fix quite a bit of out of service plant before a heatwave arrives.


----------



## qldfrog (23 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The information out of China is such that I don't think anyone really knows what the cause is, only that there seems to be a problem with supply not meeting demand. Whether that's just a minor glitch due to some unfortunate technical problems or whether it's symptomatic of something far more serious I won't claim to know.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest Australians get too cocky about it though. It's not as though we don't have rather a lot of problems in that industry in Australia and a need to fix quite a bit of out of service plant before a heatwave arrives.



fully agree, make no mistake, there is only one loser with this ban and it is us.


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## sptrawler (24 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> fully agree, make no mistake, there is only one loser with this ban and it is us.



Unless Australia accepts that it will have to diversify its market, it will just end up being owned by China, it is inevitable with an open free enterprise economy.
We have become dependent on China trade, China has a large enough economy and a regulated currency, in reality as I said many years ago China can buy Australia with ash tray money.
Australia is driven by greed and a misplaced value of self importance, it is only a matter of time before the two characteristics, trip over each other.
Its a shame the media, doesn't actually focus on nation building issues, above headline chasing issues.
The good thing is, with the corona virus, the media has had less time to get in the way of policy and economic development.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 December 2020)

Unless a lot of media organisations are way off the beam, the consensus is that power rationing is due to the coal ban.









						‘The Whole City Was Dark’: China Rations Electricity for Millions (Published 2020)
					

Warning of coal shortages, officials are trying to curb energy usage by telling residents not to use electric stoves and extinguishing lights on building facades and billboards.




					www.nytimes.com
				












						‘It hit us badly’: China’s businesses left cold by worst blackouts in decade
					

Provinces across China are struggling with the worst blackouts in nearly 10 years, as authorities try to curb energy use by imposing restrictions on businesses and residents.




					www.scmp.com
				









						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Unless a lot of media organisations are way off the beam, the consensus is that power rationing is due to the coal ban.



No better way of stirring the pot, even if they are on the money, it will only worsen China, Australia relations.
China is pizzed off with Australia rubbing their noses in it, so what do the media do, put their foot on China's head?
I certainly hope the media is right, this time. 
If the reporting is wrong, tensions escalate, media have a story. If the reporting is right, tensions escalate, media have a story. It all becomes easy articles.
I fail to understand how reporting China's electrical issue, really improves our position, it only appears to make us look like we are trying to kick sand in their faces, which isn't really a good look IMO.
Actually it is pretty un Australian IMO.
Only my opinion, maybe gloating and smugness is the new Australia and I'm more old school.
Maybe the Chinese power issues has nothing to do with our coal supplies and we are just re enforcing China's opinion of us.


----------



## sptrawler (25 December 2020)

Ooops just when we thought it was getting better. 









						China suspends Australian timber imports from NSW and Western Australia
					

China has suspended imports of timber from New South Wales and Western Australia after local customs officers found pests in cargoes from those states, the General Administration of Customs said.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (25 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Unless a lot of media organisations are way off the beam, the consensus is that power rationing is due to the coal ban.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is little evidence that media organisations have a good handle on China.
China's command economy provides a capped coal "allocation" to provinces for the year, and 2020 has thrown a few other spanners in the works:  Earlier and colder winter onset, safety issues curtailing local coal output, exceptionally high year to date energy demand, and year on year exports for November being 21% higher.






The above chart shows China's exceptionally high electricity generation for 2020, especially the second half.
And the chart below shows how the capped allocation affects coal imports:





The media could do a little more research and become more credible, but it ruins a really good story (which @qldfrog has already shown lacks cuisses de grenouilles).

In the long game that China plays, it knows that presently  the rest of the world is unable to fill the manufacturing gap that covid has caused in the West, so unfilled orders for now will carry into 2021.  And if China actually cared about curtailment problems affecting its economy, it would simply start unloading the 80 or so coal carriers already idle in their ports.
Just to add further context, the 5 provinces in the linked article have a total population of about 300 million, so a few percentage points increase in energy demand over and above record existing demand for this time of year is not that easy to plan for.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Only my opinion, maybe gloating and smugness is the new Australia and I'm more old school.




Maybe having free trade agreements that one side can violate at their whim is the new world order and the rest of us who expect deals to be complied with are "old school" ?

Just my opinion.


----------



## moXJO (26 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe having free trade agreements that one side can violate at their whim is the new world order and the rest of us who expect deals to be complied with are "old school" ?
> 
> Just my opinion.



That's the sound of a power shift.
Makes covid look like strategic cover the way China is going.


----------



## sptrawler (26 December 2020)

It always was the case, you had a contract with them, until they didnt like t he contract, then they want a new contract.
Nothing new, except they now supply the western world with most of their critical supplies, so now it is on their terms.
The only one getting in their face, has been removed.
We showed em. Lol
Hopefully Biden can grow a pair, because we are going to need them IMO.


----------



## dutchie (17 February 2021)

Australia is under attack by foreign spies and faces a greater espionage threat than at the height of the Cold War, Peter Dutton says​
*Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton gave the chilling warning in Parliament *
*The government has boosted intelligence funding to highest level in 70 years *
*Attorney-general warned spies were targeting information about foreign policy *
*Education Minister also said spies were targeting Australian universities *
*








						Australia faces its greatest threat ever from foreign spies
					

Australia faces its greatest threat ever from foreign spies, Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton said on Wednesday.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



*
Our Universities seem very vunerable.


----------



## rederob (17 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> *Australia is under attack by foreign spies and faces a greater espionage threat than at the height of the Cold War, Peter Dutton says*
> 
> *Attorney-general warned spies were targeting information about foreign policy*




Let's hope they have success and tell us what it says🇨🇳 .


----------



## satanoperca (17 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> Australia is under attack by foreign spies and faces a greater espionage threat than at the height of the Cold War, Peter Dutton says​
> *Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton gave the chilling warning in Parliament *
> *The government has boosted intelligence funding to highest level in 70 years *
> *Attorney-general warned spies were targeting information about foreign policy *
> ...



They're coming to get you, so put your tin foil hat on, to save your soul.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> They're coming to get you, so put your tin foil hat on, to save your soul.




Back to the Menzies days of "reds under the bed".

Of course, it could all be true, or at least partly so. The Chinese diaspora provides a rich vein of information, cooperation and coercion for the CCP. People who can be threatened by the line "you have family in Bejing".

The government is on to something, but it's going to be used as an excuse to invade the rights of the rest of us.

Just don't let any Chinese, Russians or potential terrorists in here in the first place.

It's not rocket science, we have no obligations to admit people who could be a threat.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 June 2021)

The latest "lesson" being taught to OZ is that China can and will come from any angle it suits.
The latest is a China led ambush on the Great barrier reef.
From The Australian


> Australia has been blindsided by a push by a China-chaired UN committee to declare the Great Barrier Reef “in danger” without proper consultation or scientific process.
> Australian government officials learned of the draft World Heritage Committee decision on Friday, despite an assurance just weeks ago from the Paris-based World Heritage Centre that the reef’s health status would not be downgraded.
> 
> The decision, which was due to be made public by UNESCO overnight, will be presented for ratification at the 44th meeting of the World Heritage Committee in China from July 16.
> ...




I guess the Chinese and by connection,  UNESCO, don't see any irony or hypocracy  from a Country that has pillaged most of the Oceans of the world, including  those that are contentiously claimed by other countries, has  blown up numerous reefs and atolls in the South China sea to enable them to build military bases,  has some of the worst  pollution in the world, managed to screw its neighbours over water extraction via the three gorges dam, contributes about 30% of greenhouse gases to the environment, with the passive approval to keep on increasing those levels until 2030,  just to name a few. But its wants to punish Australia for the treatment of the GBR.


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## SirRumpole (22 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The latest "lesson" being taught to OZ is that China can and will come from any angle it suits.
> The latest is a China led ambush on the Great barrier reef.
> From The Australian
> 
> ...




Maybe time to start ignoring the UN and its agencies, they are obviously being politically driven.


----------



## Beaches (23 June 2021)

Phone survey conducted by the Lowy Institute in March this year

_Australians have rebounded strongly from a traumatic 2020, but nervous eyes are fixed on various looming threats, with distrust of China at record levels._​_That is, in brief, the picture painted by the Lowy Institute's Annual Poll for 2021, which gauges Australians' feelings on everything from the local economy to world affairs._​​_Only 16 percent of Australians said they trusted China "a great deal" or "somewhat" to act responsibly in the world – down from 52 per cent in 2018._​_Most Australians now see China as a greater security threat than an economic partner, though there is a reluctance to join the US in any hypothetical conflict with Beijing, with 57 per cent of respondents opting for neutrality._​_However, Australian distrust of China appears to be focused on government actions and policy, with most Australians saying Chinese history and culture, and Chinese people they meet, positively influence their view of the rising superpower._​









						Australians optimistic after horror 2020 - but trust in China plunges
					






					www.9news.com.au
				



.


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2021)

Beaches said:


> _However, Australian distrust of China appears to be focused on government actions and policy, with most Australians saying Chinese history and culture, and Chinese people they meet, positively influence their view of the rising superpower._




I would agree with that.

The vast majority of ordinary Chinese want what anyone else wants, peace , security and prosperity.

The aggression is driven by the CCP, and that is driven by one man, Xi Jinping.


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## rederob (23 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe time to start ignoring the UN and its agencies, they are obviously being politically driven.



Maybe we should ignore the opinions of people who do not use science as a baseline?


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## moXJO (23 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Maybe we should ignore the opinions of people who do not use science as a baseline?
> View attachment 126502



Maybe we should let China dragnet over the top of it. Or fish it out like they did round the Galapagos islands.


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## macca (24 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Maybe we should let China dragnet over the top of it. Or fish it out like they did round the Galapagos islands.




And Vanuatu, New Guinea and a few other places.

Naturally China needs to feed itself but if you have these large trawlers that can go anywhere it seems rather inconsiderate to strip the seas around these smaller nations.

Building a new pier or wharf does not really help if there are no fish left in the sea


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## moXJO (24 June 2021)

macca said:


> And Vanuatu



And everywhere.


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## mullokintyre (5 July 2021)

The definition of Chutzpah. From Washington Examiner


> The Chinese Foreign Ministry is calling for the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which is at the center of controversy over the coronavirus pandemic’s origin, to be awarded the Nobel Prize for medicine.
> 
> “The award is mainly given to individuals or research groups who have made or demonstrated significant achievements in the past five years ... China’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson stressed at Thursday’s press conference that scientists working at the WIV should be awarded the Nobel Prize in medicine, rather than being blamed for being the first to discover the gene sequence of the novel coronavirus,” said a report from Chinese state media.



It will probably be awarded to them too. 
Mick


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## rederob (21 August 2021)

While western media portrays China negatively, its citizens have a much higher trust in what their government does.
Why Chinese People Support Their Government​We might like to think we are important to China, but it has *20 provinces* with populations greater than Australia, and 5 provinces with a similar population.
China also has land borders with 14 other countries, and their concerns generally take precedence over matters relating to a very distant Australia.
Telling China to get nicked would hardly raise a ripple in China's ocean of concerns.


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## greggles (21 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Why Chinese People Support Their Government




Probably the key sentence in that article:



> For more than 2,000 years, the Chinese nation has been infused with Confucianism, which argues that individuals should obey the state in the name of the common good.




Like every authoritarian regime throughout history, the masses in China have been expected to obey and bow down to the authority of the state. The reason, of course, is that it is easier to maintain order (and the ruling party's grip on power) when the populous is obedient. The 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre stands as a testament to what happens when some of the population living under an authoritarian regime cease to be obedient.

"The common good" is simply a euphemism for keeping current corrupt mob of power mongers in power for as long as possible so they can enrich themselves and extend and consolidate their power. With the judiciary as an extension of the state, things are made even easier.


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## rederob (21 August 2021)

greggles said:


> The 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre stands as a testament to what happens when some of the population living under an authoritarian regime cease to be obedient.



There were protests throughout China beforehand, mostly due to failed promises to end official corruption and for political and economic reform.


greggles said:


> "The common good" is simply a euphemism for keeping current corrupt mob of power mongers in power for as long as possible so they can enrich themselves and extend and consolidate their power. With the judiciary as an extension of the state, things are made even easier.



Just so you understand, *commonweal - *the common good* - *is the basis of our commonwealth, so what you say must be applicable here?


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## basilio (3 September 2021)

Another audacious power grab by President Xi Jingping.  In the last few weeks he has unilaterally

1) Decreed that children can only play computer games for 3 hours a week on the weekends.
2) Closed down the private tutoring industry declaring that it was  financially ruining families attempting to provide extra private tuition.
3) Declared that effeminate male movie/pop stars should no longer be encouraged.

Xi has also decided that the rise of super rich business people is not in the best interests of China and that he was actively going to spread the wealth through more taxes on the super rich.

What a Commo.!









						The timing of Xi Jinping's crackdown on 'effeminate' men, gamers and private tutoring cannot be ignored
					

Xi Jinping has been on a run of late that is earning him both admiration as a bold reformer curing society's ills, and criticism as an unchecked leader steering China towards a 21st century version of the Cultural Revolution, writes Bill Birtles.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Chinese president vows to ‘adjust excessive incomes’ of super rich
					

Chinese Communist party to crack down on almost weekly creation of billionaire company bosses




					www.theguardian.com


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## SirRumpole (3 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Another audacious power grab by President Xi Jingping.  In the last few weeks he has unilaterally
> 
> 1) Decreed that children can only play computer games for 3 hours a week on the weekends.
> 2) Closed down the private tutoring industry declaring that it was  financially ruining families attempting to provide extra private tuition.
> ...




Very significant for pension funds and other corporations that invest in China.

It could be an own goal if funds suddenly disappear from China.


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## bellenuit (3 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Another audacious power grab by President Xi Jingping.  In the last few weeks he has unilaterally
> 
> 1) Decreed that children can only play computer games for 3 hours a week on the weekends.
> 2) Closed down the private tutoring industry declaring that it was  financially ruining families attempting to provide extra private tuition.
> ...




Don't forget schoolchildren will now be indoctrinated with  “Xi Jinping thought”. 

_Chinese pupils returned to school on Wednesday with new textbooks peppered with “Xi Jinping thought”, as the Communist Party aims to extend his personality cult to children as young as seven and rear a new generation of patriots.

The education ministry has said it will incorporate Xi’s vaguely defined political ideology into the national curriculum, from primary schools to graduate programmes, at the start of the new school year on Wednesday._









						China’s pupils get schooled in ‘Xi Jinping thought’
					

Chinese students return to school with new textbooks peppered with ‘Xi Jingping thought’.




					www.aljazeera.com
				




I would not be surprised to soon see an edict for people to wear Mao suits again to show their adherence to a classless society. Remember, that is what he wore at the last CCP congress.

I think Xi is dangerous and is slowly winding back the reforms made by he predecessor as well as adopting an aggressive stance with his neighbours and showing absolute hostility to anyone that should criticise the CCP. That coupled with the "cult" personality he is promoting spells trouble for the world in the next few years.


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## basilio (3 September 2021)

Rumpoles observations about pension funds withdrawing from China are also significant.

I was a bit tongue-in-check regarding President Xi's interventions. Frankly I could see a billion people cheering for a  control on children spending their life on computer games. The private tuition industry has created an unwinnable situation for Chinese parents trying to get their children into scarce University places.  I reckon a billion of them would also cheer that decision. The forthright call to tax the new Chinese bilionaires and create a more equal society will also go down well with the majority of the Chinese population.

I came across an excellent analysis of the Chinese investment scene. IMV well worth a read. Some excellent historical context as well.

Main points  about the policy were:

_Determination that a group of very wealthy capitalists did not emerge as a threat to the power of the Party and its leader Xi Jinping._
_A general reestablishment of absolute control in the country._
_A determination to reduce wealth inequality, described by Xi Jinping as "common prosperity"; this point of view references leftward swings at various moments in 20th Century Chinese history._
_A determination to control education and communication media._
_A determination that foreign capital is no longer needed nor welcome and should not be allowed to exploit the Chinese population._
_An intense new sense of nationalism._






						The China Narrative Is Broken; China Is Uninvestable For Now | Seeking Alpha
					

About six weeks ago, I sold my last China position. Check out why I had dumped Alibaba stock on March 27 and sold part of my China small cap ETF in May.




					seekingalpha.com


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## basilio (3 September 2021)

The decision to minimise children playing computer games has had a big hit on the  gaming media companies.

China forbids minors from gaming more than three hours per week​Tencent and NetEase can only offer online gaming to minors from 8pm to 9pm (00:00 to 01:00 GMT) on Fridays, weekends and holidays.


Tencent, which in 2018 and 2019 grappled with a widespread gaming industry crackdown then focused on myopia among children, is also struggling with a plethora of tightening regulations in areas such as social media, online finance and commerce [File: Tingshu Wang/Reuters]

By Zheping HuangBloomberg
30 Aug 2021

China will limit the amount of time children can play videogames to just three hours most weeks, a dramatic escalation of restrictions which dealt a blow to the world’s largest mobile gaming market, as Beijing signaled it would continue a campaign to control the expansion of large tech companies.
Gaming platforms from Tencent Holdings Ltd. to NetEase Inc. can only offer online gaming to minors from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. on Fridays, weekends and public holidays, state news agency Xinhua reported, citing a notice by the National Press and Publication Administration. The new rules are a major step-up from a previous restriction set in 2019 of 1.5 daily hours most days.









						China forbids minors from gaming more than three hours per week
					

Tencent and NetEase can only offer online gaming to minors from 8pm to 9pm on Fridays, weekends and holidays.




					www.aljazeera.com


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## Smurf1976 (3 September 2021)

I noticed today that Eveready now stamps "SINGAPORE" prominently on the end of their alkaline batteries.

It's highly visible, white print on black background, and I can only assume they're making a point of it for marketing reasons, working on an assumption that highlighting the country of manufacture as being a "friendly" one will be good for sales.

I wonder how long before other companies with products made somewhere that isn't China start drawing this to attention?


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## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

@basilio how does all this fit with the rhetoric, that we shouldn't be pushing back against China and we should be more welcoming to our major trading partner?

I'm starting to see a shift from the Guardian, SMH, AGE narrative on your part, are you having any internal conflicts.


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## sptrawler (16 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Very significant for pension funds and other corporations that invest in China.
> 
> It could be an own goal if funds suddenly disappear from China.



As I've said before, contracts with China are always fluid, from my observations you have a contract, until they don't like the contract.
Another example is Macau, many overseas companies have been enticed and courted by the "invest in us" mantra, now it looks like it might be "thankyou for the buildings, and infrastructure". Didn't Crown build something there?

I guess we are just lucky China needs us and our iron ore miners are immune from China's ponderings









						Macau casino stocks plunge as gov’t kicks off consultation
					

A gov’t proposal to revise the city’s gaming laws spooked investors already slammed by Beijing’s recent crackdown.




					www.aljazeera.com
				



From the article:
With Macau’s lucrative casino licences up for rebidding next year, a government proposal to revise the city’s gaming law spooked a Hong Kong market already slammed hard into the red by a broad Beijing regulatory crackdown, across sectors from technology to education and property, that has sliced hundreds of billions of dollars off asset values.

The slump came after Lei Wai Nong, Macau’s secretary for economy and finance, late on Tuesday gave notice of a 45-day consultation on the gambling industry starting on Wednesday, saying there were still some deficiencies in industry supervision. The enclave is the only place in China where gambling is legal. Among the topics being covered: how many licences – known locally as “concessions” – will be allowed, how long their terms will be, and the level of supervision by the government.

While licence renewals have been expected for some time as the current ones expire next June, the move to tighten regulatory control took the industry by surprise. Besides appointing government representatives, the revisions also propose increasing local shareholdings of casino companies, without elaboration on how these moves will be enacted.

Beijing, increasingly wary of Macau’s acute reliance on gambling, has not yet indicated how the licence rebidding process will be judged.

Dismay rippled through industry players and analysts after the announcement as China’s ongoing clampdown on sectors from gaming to after-school tutoring appears to have reached Macau at last.

Discussions over the future of Macau’s casino licences come amid rocky US-China relations, leaving some investors fearing that US-based casino operators may not fare as well as local players.


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## Smurf1976 (27 September 2021)

Things are looking a bit dark in China it seems:









						Power cuts hit homes in north-east China
					

An electricity shortage affecting factories has now spread to some homes.



					www.bbc.com
				






> The energy shortage at first affected manufacturers across the country, many of whom have had to curb or stop production in recent weeks.





> One power company said it expected the power cuts to last until spring next year, and that unexpected outages would become "the new normal". Its post, however, was later deleted.




So if you need any "Made in China" goods then hopefully you've already ordered and they've already been made. If not, might be some disruption.


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## qldfrog (20 December 2021)

Provicative title so what better place:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/In...ops-European-helicopters-for-U.S.-Black-Hawks
After the subs, the choppers...
Australia is clearly taking side here and our tax dollars will feel the pain first...
Not breaking news but did not see it discussed here..or i missed it


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## Knobby22 (21 February 2022)

Chinese ships travelling into Australian waters and hitting our equipment with lasers.

Now is the perfect opportunity to take back Darwin port on security issues.  The port was sold by the Libs (during Abbots reign)  to China. Come on, show some strength. Less rhetoric, more action!


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Chinese ships travelling into Australian waters and hitting our equipment with lasers.
> 
> Now is the perfect opportunity to take back Darwin port on security issues.  The port was sold by the Libs (during Abbots reign)  to China. Come on, show some strength. Less rhetoric, more action!




I think it was actually a 99 year lease, but it amounts to the same thing.

I wonder if others on this forum have changed their mind about China since China's latest aggressive actions.

VC ?


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## Investoradam (21 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Very significant for pension funds and other corporations that invest in China.
> 
> It could be an own goal if funds suddenly disappear from China.



Maybe if old Whorke and China man Keating hadn’t sold Australia and it’s assets out from its citizens and it’s First Nations people we wouldn’t  have this problem?









						How the Labor Party Sold Australia’s Public Assets for a Song
					

Many people think of privatization as a policy of conservative parties. In Australia, however, it was Paul Keating’s Labor that initiated a gigantic fire sale of public assets, setting in motion a process that made billions for private companies at the expense of everyone else.




					www.jacobinmag.com


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## Investoradam (21 February 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Things are looking a bit dark in China it seems:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There record year of green energy can’t keep up over some busted arsed old coal power stations


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## moXJO (21 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it was actually a 99 year lease, but it amounts to the same thing.
> 
> I wonder if others on this forum have changed their mind about China since China's latest aggressive actions.
> 
> VC ?



I'm anti Ccp. But pro reality. Reality is we are a soft target. Build some hypersonic weapons and we will talk.


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## wayneL (25 April 2022)

It seems at least one state isn't telling China to get nicked


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## qldfrog (Wednesday at 5:36 AM)

After covid, 3y of the west rehoming factories and all the other BS news
The facts are








						Pharmacists report nationwide shortage of some antibiotics amid supply issues
					

Overseas supply issues are leading to a shortage in some antibiotic medications used to treat illnesses such as pneumonia and strep throat.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Our leaders are good at jabbing and poisonning us, locking and taxing us..but it seems far less at actually doing their only job: managing countries
Who is getting nicked?
Ohh but it is different now, India is the issue ROL
Pathetic


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