# Poor cows



## LifeChoices (31 May 2011)

Didn't mean to watch it, but I did: just caught the end of it and I saw a trembling cow watch his buddy being tortured and killed. I felt sick all day - I still feel sick. I think it was enough for me to turn vegetarian for a few days.

Just one other reason I will never ever go to Indonesia.


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## Tyler Durden (31 May 2011)

Are you talking about a slaughterhouse?

Yeah it's pretty bad what we do to animals...if only we knew half of what happened to the animals we eat


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## LifeChoices (31 May 2011)

Tyler Durden said:


> Are you talking about a slaughterhouse?
> 
> Yeah it's pretty bad what we do to animals...if only we knew half of what happened to the animals we eat




Sorry to be cryptic - it was all over the news today in Melbourne. Four Corners did a program on what happens to our live exported beef when it gets to Indonesia. 

It was the most sickening thing I've watched in a long time - and I only saw about 5 minutes of it - by accident.


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## Tyler Durden (31 May 2011)

LifeChoices said:


> Sorry to be cryptic - it was all over the news today in Melbourne. Four Corners did a program on what happens to our live exported beef when it gets to Indonesia.
> 
> It was the most sickening thing I've watched in a long time - and I only saw about 5 minutes of it - by accident.




Yeah I checked smh.com.au after reading your post and found out what you were referring to.

Things like this have been on my mind for a long time - it seems extremely cruel that we humans breed animals just to kill them.


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## LifeChoices (31 May 2011)

I eat meat so I don't have a problem with the humane treatment and killing of animals for human consumption.



> The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated
> - Mahatma Gandhi




I have a big problem with the torture of animals.


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## Wysiwyg (31 May 2011)

Tyler Durden said:


> Things like this have been on my mind for a long time - it seems extremely cruel that we humans breed animals just to kill them.



Yeah I know what you mean Dyler Turdin. I too mourn the passing of lettuce, tomatoes, apples, peas, corn etc. when their promising lives are literally cut short by cowardly humans who then go on to devour the hapless victims without a thought for the countless propagations waiting a similar fate.


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## boofhead (31 May 2011)

I'm sure if the government didn't make any movements then nothing would ultimately change.

The way some in the industry spoke on 4Corners shows they are more interested in the sales and less interested in what happens afterwards except token gestures.

Anyone know beef trade that has an inkling where they will import the beasts from now?


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## Julia (31 May 2011)

LifeChoices said:


> Didn't mean to watch it, but I did: just caught the end of it and I saw a trembling cow watch his buddy being tortured and killed. I felt sick all day - I still feel sick. I think it was enough for me to turn vegetarian for a few days.
> 
> Just one other reason I will never ever go to Indonesia.



There was plenty of warning about the content of the program.  As a result I made sure not to watch it.  Just cannot look at or read about cruelty to animals.  Utterly sickening.
There should be punishment for the Indonesians involved in this dreadful practice in addition to their 'services' being boycotted by Australia.

One of the problems the RSPCA has is unsufficient funds to bring prosecutions  against the perpetrators of this shocking practice.
So if anyone has a few spare dollars, please contribute to the RSPCA.

And if anyone else commenting in this thread is disposed to describe or post images of what actually happens to these poor animals, please do not do so.  Anyone wanting to see it can find it.

I will just never understand what it is in some human beings that allows them to inflict cruelty on any animal, most of whom are defenceless and utterly innocent.  There's nothing that upsets me more.


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## LifeChoices (31 May 2011)

The program on the ABC last night really upset me.

What sort of country jails a young girl for 20 years for smuggling marijuana, executes others for smuggling heroin, lets off and makes invalid excuses for Abu Bakar Bashir, the spiritual leader of an organisation that is responsible for mass murder and yet endorses the torture of animals?

I hope to never spend one cent of my money to contribute to their morally bankrupt backwater.


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## NewOrder (31 May 2011)

LifeChoices said:


> I eat meat so I don't have a problem with the humane treatment and killing of animals for human consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a big problem with the torture of animals.




I agree with you and I *do not *eat meat, I am a fairly stict vegetarian no rennet, gelatine etc. There is no issue to me with humans eating meat if that is their choice but there must be respect for the animals.


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## Tyler Durden (31 May 2011)

Julia said:


> I will just never understand what it is in some human beings that allows them to inflict cruelty on any animal, most of whom are defenceless and utterly innocent.  There's nothing that upsets me more.




If I made laws, I would introduce "an eye for an eye" punishment for those who inflict harm on animals.

Don't give me that "an eye for an eye makes both people blind" crap - they deserve it.


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## Liar's Poker (1 June 2011)

Julia said:


> There was plenty of warning about the content of the program.  As a result I made sure not to watch it.  Just cannot look at or read about cruelty to animals.  Utterly sickening.
> There should be punishment for the Indonesians involved in this dreadful practice in addition to their 'services' being boycotted by Australia.
> 
> One of the problems the RSPCA has is unsufficient funds to bring prosecutions  against the perpetrators of this shocking practice.
> ...




In addition to Julia's post, please also consider donating to the WSPA. For those that do not have any spare coin, you can also help by completing a pre-written letter to be posted to your local MP (only takes 60 seconds) - every little bit helps.

WSPA - http://www.wspa.org.au/
RSPCA - http://www.rspca.org.au/

I donate a certain percent of my income to them every year and have been really impressed to hear about their progress on stopping the culling of Bali dogs through vaccination, rescuing bears from bear baiting in Pakistan (the initial reason I signed up) and events such as the mistreatment of cows.

I didn't watch the program as just hearing about it was enough - felt like jumping on a plane and breaking some legs of my own.

-Liar-


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## nulla nulla (1 June 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Yeah I know what you mean Dyler Turdin. I too mourn the passing of lettuce, tomatoes, apples, peas, corn etc. when their promising lives are literally cut short by cowardly humans who then go on to devour the hapless victims without a thought for the countless propagations waiting a similar fate.




Don't forget carrots. Everyone forgets carrots. Poor buggers start out life as a seed barely 1mm in size. Shoved in the ground with a dose of highly toxic fertiliser and as soon as they have overcome their adversities and established themselves, some mongrel human comes along and literaly rips them out of their environement to die.
Poor buggers.


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## Glen48 (1 June 2011)

www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export 

If you want to sign up.

Think you will find there is a lot more of this going on in any country makes you relise how cold hearted people are.


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## LifeChoices (1 June 2011)

Glen48 said:


> www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export
> 
> If you want to sign up.
> 
> Think you will find there is a lot more of this going on in any country makes you relise how cold hearted people are.




Good one - come on everyone - make a difference!


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## NewOrder (1 June 2011)

Glen48 said:


> www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export
> 
> If you want to sign up.
> 
> Think you will find there is a lot more of this going on in any country makes you relise how cold hearted people are.




Thanks for the link, signed


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## Julia (1 June 2011)

NewOrder said:


> Thanks for the link, signed



+1.  (though I'm a bit reluctant to be giving GetUp my email address.)


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## Country Lad (1 June 2011)

Glen48 said:


> www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export
> 
> If you want to sign up.
> 
> Think you will find there is a lot more of this going on in any country makes you relise how cold hearted people are.




The reason we are the main (not the only) exporters to Indonesia is a factor of geography - our shipping costs are less than from South America.  

A couple of the independents say that they will introduce a bill to ban all live export.

I have a difficulty with this populist move as it does not in anyway reduce the animal cruelty.  Firstly, South American producers will quickly fill the market and the cruelty will continue unabated.  Secondly, the bill includes live sheep export and there goes the income of a number of WA farmers.  Thirdly, not being suppliers, we will have no influence into banning the practices.

I would prefer to see our government enter into fair dinkum discussions with the Indo gov't to achieve reforms.  Worth a try. Trouble is, our gov't may not have the backbone.  Probaly easier for them to bury head in sand and ban the exports - could be votes in that. 

I suppose what happens from here will depend on where the interest lies - stop the cruelty completely or stop the cruelty on our cattle.

And the there is the issue of what did ALM do with all that money they collected from the industry which was supposed to be spent on the cruelty issue and which they said was under control.

Cheers
Country Lad


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## tothemax6 (1 June 2011)

Well sorry to break it to y'all, but this is what meat is. Animals are bred purely for the purpose of eating, which often involves them living in miserable conditions, and ends with them getting viciously butchered.
And don't give me that 'it can be humane' stuff, that is just to make the butchers and the consumers feel better about the whole thing. The animal is still 'executed' for its meat in either way, it is only the time taken to perform the execution that changes.
But keep in mind two things - (1) few animals below the top of the food chain suffer 'humane' deaths. Some animals suffer deaths that are genuine horror stories (example being deaths involving paralysis and slow and drawn out consumption by a larvae), and (2) the 'feeding purpose' actually gave these animals life in the first place, they would not exist otherwise. Its an odd way to look at it, but would you rather a 20year life followed by execution, or non-existence?

I have no problem eating meat (but incidentally my consumption of it is very low compared to most people).


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## Wysiwyg (1 June 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Animals are bred purely for the purpose of eating



Yes and modern person is oblivious or mostly ignorant to how the deaths take place. Modern day person can get all emotional and cry injustice when it is really just a normal part of the life cycle. When they (modern day emotional person) catches a fish and sinks a barbed hook, drags it through the water and then lets it die out of the water feels nothing yet if it was lil lamby getting smacked in the forehead with a bolt, tears would be flowing. 

Have to admit those Indonesians in the footage are sick and represent a primitive mindset over there. Swift is best.

Happens in the USA too.



> For her book Slaughterhouse, Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed *slaughterhouse workers in the U.S.* who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, *animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking.* Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.



Doin' the dirty work for all of us.


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## chrislp (2 June 2011)

Signed the link. After watching the 4Corners episode my heart has broken. 

These creatures live for the purpose of us to eat & this is how they are thanked for it.



tothemax6 said:


> Its an odd way to look at it, but would you rather a 20year life followed by execution, or non-existence?




None if it ends like what is happening to the cows who were brutalised. Have you watched the full 4Corners episode? It wasn't just the death of these animals that are an issue it's the fact that some were tortured & grossly mistreated.

These creatures don't understand why pain is brought onto them. How can an unintelligent innocent animal ever understand the true depth of cruelty of a human being?

Human nature sucks


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## Logique (2 June 2011)

The answer is clear. We need to price protein. This will encourage the big protein emitters to change their behaviour, transitioning us to greener, more leguminous economy. 

We could appoint an independent advisory body, the International Protein Counsultative Council (IPCC) to guide us through this process, which won't result in a tax at all. 

Additionally, there would be a Protein Bonus Scheme, where there would be subsidies per kg, for home owners humanely to raise a cow in their yard, with a further bonus on it's resale to a humane abbattoir. 

The longer we wait, the more it will cost. This has nothing to do with the political election cyle.


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## Gringotts Bank (2 June 2011)

I think we should be tolerant of the Indonesian Muslim culture and invite them to come and live in Australia.  I for one would be proud to have anyone and everyone who wants to live here come and be my neighbor.  You're all being racist.  Australia is the great melting pot, free for all to ruin.


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## NewOrder (2 June 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think we should be tolerant of the Indonesian Muslim culture and invite them to come and live in Australia.  I for one would be proud to have anyone and everyone who wants to live here come and be my neighbor.  You're all being racist.  Australia is the great melting pot, free for all to ruin.




I am struggling to see how this could even remotely be labelled a racist issue. You will need to clarify if you are joking and if not then how do you make a racist connection with the real issue which is the unecessay tourture of animals.



> Well sorry to break it to y'all, but this is what meat is. Animals are bred purely for the purpose of eating, which often involves them living in miserable conditions, and ends with them getting viciously butchered.
> And don't give me that 'it can be humane' stuff, that is just to make the butchers and the consumers feel better about the whole thing. The animal is still 'executed' for its meat in either way, it is only the time taken to perform the execution that changes.
> But keep in mind two things - (1) few animals below the top of the food chain suffer 'humane' deaths. Some animals suffer deaths that are genuine horror stories (example being deaths involving paralysis and slow and drawn out consumption by a larvae), and (2) the 'feeding purpose' actually gave these animals life in the first place, they would not exist otherwise. Its an odd way to look at it, but would you rather a 20year life followed by execution, or non-existence?




The issue is the disgusting and torturous treament of the animals, we know that animals have to be killed to be eaten. In Australia (generally) animals are not 







> viciously butchered



 People are shocked, rightly so, that the live animals exported are being brutalised. 

If people choose to eat meat then they have an obligation to treat the animals in a respectful manner.


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## pixel (2 June 2011)

It may not be a racist issue, but certainly a cultural one.
Muslims - at least those in underprivileged countries - have been told for over a thousand years that's the way animals have to be slaughtered: Hearing the name of Allah when their throat is cut. It doesn't matter to them whether an animal has been raised in Australia, Anatolia, or Argentina. Our cattle and sheep are not in any way more or less "precious" than those raised anywhere else.
Westernised countries, with an increasingly urban population that has lost connection to most things rural, find the idea appalling. As soon as a TV team turns it into a sensational story, the collective urbane soul boils over.

As long as nobody spoke about unsavoury facts, showed what's going on inside abattoirs, talked about how chickens are mass-produced and mass-processed, etc, we all could enjoy our steaks, chicken breast, or lamb chops oblivious to the fact that *all meat we eat comes from an animal that has been killed*. 

IMHO the present uproar says more about the alienation of our urban culture from the basics of food production, than it helps bridging the cultural gulf between Indonesian reality and Western humanitarian Utopism.


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## LifeChoices (2 June 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Well sorry to break it to y'all, but this is what meat is. Animals are bred purely for the purpose of eating, which often involves them living in miserable conditions, and ends with them getting viciously butchered.




Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but some people actually care about the way animals are treated, and think that animals are much more than the commodity, you paint them to be. 

Even some cattle producers are considering pulling out of live exports because of the extreme cruelty. And can you blame them? I wouldn't like to see my hard work and investments rubbished in the way that they were shown in the program.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201106/s3233658.htm

As for it being a cultural problem, I'm not convinced about that:



> Halal food requires the humane killing of livestock with proper Islamic prayers beforehand, and one quick stroke in the jugular area to guarantee the least amount of pain to the animal.




http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201106/s3233519.htm

I think this quote makes a lot of sense.



> The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated



- Mahatma Gandhi


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## Julia (2 June 2011)

NewOrder said:


> I am struggling to see how this could even remotely be labelled a racist issue. You will need to clarify if you are joking and if not then how do you make a racist connection with the real issue which is the unecessay tourture of animals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Completely agree.



pixel said:


> It may not be a racist issue, but certainly a cultural one.
> Muslims - at least those in underprivileged countries - have been told for over a thousand years that's the way animals have to be slaughtered: Hearing the name of Allah when their throat is cut. It doesn't matter to them whether an animal has been raised in Australia, Anatolia, or Argentina. Our cattle and sheep are not in any way more or less "precious" than those raised anywhere else.



pixel, according to several accounts in the media in recent days, Muslim authorities have emphatically denied that the accounts of the torture of animals shown in the 4 Corners program have anything at all to do with Hal Al killing.  They have unreservedly condemned the brutality.

I avoided seeing the program but have been unable to avoid hearing some of the details of the hideous cruelty meted out for absolutely no reason on these poor animals, i.e. breaking their limbs, gouging out their eyes.

Don't say this is a 'cultural issue'.  It's an issue of utter brutality and cruelty by pathetic people who should never be allowed anywhere near any animal.




> Westernised countries, with an increasingly urban population that has lost connection to most things rural, find the idea appalling. As soon as a TV team turns it into a sensational story, the collective urbane soul boils over.



Really?  Are you seriously saying you think the massive outcry about what happens in these sickening abbattoirs is just Western over-sensitivity????



> As long as nobody spoke about unsavoury facts, showed what's going on inside abattoirs, talked about how chickens are mass-produced and mass-processed, etc, we all could enjoy our steaks, chicken breast, or lamb chops oblivious to the fact that *all meat we eat comes from an animal that has been killed*.



Killing an animal humanely that has been bred for people to eat is one thing.
To gratuitously torture it is something else entirely.

I feel quite sick reading your opinion on this, pixel.


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## satanoperca (2 June 2011)

Just a question, how many people in Australia would eat meat if they had to kill, slaughter, gut and clean the animal themselves before consuming the meat. 

While I can see the outrage about this practice in a foreign country, we all go to our local butchers or supermarket and purchase meat for consumption. A far distant cry from the reality of where the meat came from, it was once a living, breathing creature with emotions like the rest of us.

How many Brians have you consumed in your lifetime?


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## NewOrder (2 June 2011)

pixel said:


> It may not be a racist issue, but certainly a cultural one.
> Muslims - at least those in underprivileged countries - have been told for over a thousand years that's the way animals have to be slaughtered: Hearing the name of Allah when their throat is cut. It doesn't matter to them whether an animal has been raised in Australia, Anatolia, or Argentina. Our cattle and sheep are not in any way more or less "precious" than those raised anywhere else.
> Westernised countries, with an increasingly urban population that has lost connection to most things rural, find the idea appalling. As soon as a TV team turns it into a sensational story, the collective urbane soul boils over.
> 
> ...




I think you underestimate many Westerners, people do understand that the meat they eat comes from dead animals, people are not stupid. There is a huge difference between our standards of slaughter and treatment of animals compared to what was show on the TV report in question. Did you see the report?

None of the reporting I have seen singles out the cultural aspects of the Indonesians, it is about the animals, poor poor animals that are treated in such a shocking way. We have every right to protest such treatment of animals, by our cultural standards this behaviour is not acceptable. 

Ultimately I hope that this issue makes more people become Vegetarians or at least  Flexitarians.


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## boofhead (2 June 2011)

It wouldn't bother me if I had to kill, skin, slice and dice the cow. As long as the stun part was done properly I don't see an issue.

I found it a bit hypocritical of Hal Al slaughter men wouldn't use the stun gun thingy because it wasn't how they interpreted how it should be done (it isn't alive how the want it) but Hal Al is supposed to be done with a single clean cut and not hacked.


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## pixel (3 June 2011)

boofhead said:


> It wouldn't bother me if I had to kill, skin, slice and dice the cow. As long as the stun part was done properly I don't see an issue.
> 
> I found it a bit hypocritical of Hal Al slaughter men wouldn't use the stun gun thingy because it wasn't how they interpreted how it should be done (it isn't alive how the want it) but Hal Al is *supposed to be done with a single clean cut *and not hacked.



 So, you think a "single clean cut" doesn't hurt the animal? Doesn't leave it gasping for breath? Doesn't leave its brain alive for the last eternity of pain, while the blood slowly drains its life away?

That's what I cannot understand - how people can somehow condone one and condemn the other, as if a gradual difference would make it right.

And no, I didn't watch the broadcast either because I foresaw what would happen: An uproar that increases tension between two cultures, whose relations are stressed enough without additional aggravation. And I use the term "culture" very loosely *in both cases*. 

But by all means, go on and protest. It may not benefit our beef producers, but some South Americans will gladly take up the slack. They've got plenty of rainforest to turn into pampas to herd more cattle. They won't be able to feed their own people any better, but that's OK: Their kids are all good Christians, put into a life of misery, but promised compensation in Paradise afterwards.

That is the surface I would like to scratch deeper. *That is the issue that really makes me sick. *


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## nulla nulla (3 June 2011)

satanoperca said:


> Just a question, how many people in Australia would eat meat if they had to kill, slaughter, gut and clean the animal themselves before consuming the meat.
> 
> While I can see the outrage about this practice in a foreign country, we all go to our local butchers or supermarket and purchase meat for consumption. A far distant cry from the reality of where the meat came from, it was once a living, breathing creature with emotions like the rest of us.
> 
> How many Brians have you consumed in your lifetime?




i don't eat brains. Don't care for the taste. I don't mind jellied tongue occaisionly though. Goes well with a cold carrot salad.


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## LifeChoices (3 June 2011)

pixel said:


> So, you think a "single clean cut" doesn't hurt the animal? Doesn't leave it gasping for breath? Doesn't leave its brain alive for the last eternity of pain, while the blood slowly drains its life away?
> 
> That's what I cannot understand - how people can somehow condone one and condemn the other, as if a gradual difference would make it right.




One particularly distressing part video was where the hapless cow was tethered and lying on it's side, after being tripped, repeatedly flogged and kicked by the slaughterer. The highly distressed beast followed him with his head and eyes and with a feeble bellow seemed to be appealing to the man "Why are you doing this to me?"

It was a totally unnecessary act of cruelty, which is sickening just to remember.

I find it difficult to understand how some people on this forum can actually condone this sort of cruelty.


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## boofhead (3 June 2011)

pixel said:


> So, you think a "single clean cut" doesn't hurt the animal? Doesn't leave it gasping for breath? Doesn't leave its brain alive for the last eternity of pain, while the blood slowly drains its life away?




I'm not sure how I said I supported it. I said the people involved are hypocrits. Hal Al is supposed to be a single clean cut which none seem to do. So they are not proper Hal Al traditional slaughters so their rejection of stun guns doesn't make sense.


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## pixel (3 June 2011)

LifeChoices said:


> I find it difficult to understand how some people on this forum can actually condone this sort of cruelty.



 I find it difficult to understand how some people construe a different opinion as condoning cruelty.

I don't condone cruelty, neither to animals nor to humans. I find the Hal Al method just as appalling: It's a barbarous relic from a far-away time and place when/where tribal life was governed by much harsher battles for survival. Urbanised society has advanced some. But vast regions of the world are still held back - mainly by religious leaders (of *all* "Religions of the Book") - and the peoples remain condemned to lives in squalor.

But I can't condone the splashing of blood and guts across TV screens either. By all means, send a copy to the Indonesian department that's in charge of abattoirs and to their clerics. If the imams are just as appalled as their colleagues are now that the stink is in the open, they will take swift action.

That won't lift TV ratings. But it won't deepen the rift between two neighbouring "cultures" either.

PS: boofhead, no offence intended; I didn't mean _*you *_personally; "you" was addressing the participants in this debate in general.


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## Wysiwyg (3 June 2011)

LifeChoices said:


> One particularly distressing part video was where the hapless cow was tethered and lying on it's side, after being tripped, repeatedly flogged and kicked by the slaughterer. The highly distressed beast followed him with his head and eyes and with a feeble bellow seemed to be appealing to the man "Why are you doing this to me?"



No doubt you recorded this event and have watched it over and over many times. Maybe you could organise a rally, send a letter to the Prime Minister or at least go over there to the abbatoir and deal with them a-hole Indo's directly.


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## Gringotts Bank (3 June 2011)

I actually think they enjoy the cruelty, in the same way they enjoy stoning women to death buried up to their necks in the ground.  They use the perverted interpretations of their religion to explain it all away.  It makes them feel powerful.  They are all terrified of their God.  Shows how powerful belief is.   

And yes, my first post was in jest.  I thought the comment "Australia... free for all to ruin" would have given it away.


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## Greg (3 June 2011)

There has to be a more humane way of addressing this issue. If we accept that some animals are bred for consumption, we can separate it from the "how they die in the wild is much more cruel" debate. 
We also seem to be accpeting of the fact that if Australia fails to meet this demand, it will go to other countries like South America and we would lose out economically, not to mention lost jobs in the farming industry; so we need to find a way to fill this demand whilst ensuring that the animlas are slaughtered in the most humane way possible. 
I have trouble processing how any religious or cultural factors can condone cruelty to animlas and if that's what the Halal method dictates, then that is very sad. Surely there's a way to prepare the meat suitably, free from these torturous acts?
Maybe we should only export our excellent Australian livestock to countries who can show that their slaughtering processes are humane; countries that are prepared to meet our requirements. 
That way we can all be satisfied that Australia's cultural, economic and humanitarian prefrences are all being addressed.


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## boofhead (3 June 2011)

I prefer not exporting of live animals. If you want it done by our standards, standards that you may be able to influence by public opinion and/or science then it needs to be done here. As soon as it happens outside Australia's legal juristiction you lose control. The same can be applied to many other industries.

For the record I do not condone Hal Al or other methods of slaughter where the animal feels more than an instant of pain.

Maybe export protocols need a better review because industry has a conflict of interest. It wants the sales.


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## NewOrder (3 June 2011)

pixel said:


> I find it difficult to understand how some people construe a different opinion as condoning cruelty.
> 
> I don't condone cruelty, neither to animals nor to humans. I find the Hal Al method just as appalling: It's a barbarous relic from a far-away time and place when/where tribal life was governed by much harsher battles for survival. Urbanised society has advanced some. But vast regions of the world are still held back - mainly by religious leaders (of *all* "Religions of the Book") - and the peoples remain condemned to lives in squalor.
> 
> ...




I get the gist of your posts but the bolded point I don't agree with. It is the exposing of this torture and cruelty and the splashing of blood across the TV that helps to create change, that is a good thing surely?


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## easylikesunday (3 June 2011)

Hate to break it to ya people but it doesn't just happen in Indonesia. Cruelty would happen in 90% of the slaughter houses. Its not a racial thing.

I think that to harm to an innocent animal for "fun" is one of the lowest acts a human could do. Its cowardly.

Im a meat eater and have no problem with slaughter houses, providing they do their job properly. But like with any job, if you do the same thing day-in, day-out you will soon get bored and want to have some "fun", as sick as that sounds. How do you lighten up the day in a slaughter house?

The people who work that these places wouldn't see these animals as a living, feeling creature, they would simply see them as another slab of meat. They aren't greenie animal lovers.

Anyway I didnt even watch the four corners thing but I have seen a documentary that covers pretty much whats been said, and more. Its called Earthlings.

Ill warm its not for the faint hearted!

http://youtu.be/ce4DJh-L7Ys


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## LifeChoices (3 June 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> No doubt you recorded this event and have watched it over and over many times. Maybe you could organise a rally, send a letter to the Prime Minister or at least go over there to the abbatoir and deal with them a-hole Indo's directly.




Sorry buddy, I didn't record it, organise a rally, send a letter to the Prime minister and didn't even go to the abbatoir.

I put a post up on a public forum, signed a petition and wrote to my local member.

No doubt you would have been pulling the wings of flies, while belting off to your favourite Kenny G album and pressing refresh on this topic waiting for your good buddy to respond.

Good luck with it - toe rag. 

From this point on you are dead to me.


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## tothemax6 (3 June 2011)

chrislp said:


> None if it ends like what is happening to the cows who were brutalised. Have you watched the full 4Corners episode? It wasn't just the death of these animals that are an issue it's the fact that some were tortured & grossly mistreated.



Yes, the people involved are sickos. Deliberately prolonging the suffering of an animal, or torturing an animal, for voyeuristic or entertainment purposes is a sign that someone is effed in the head.
From a practical stance, these people should be fired anyway, regardless of moral issues, since they are effectively 'stuffing around' - which is inefficient as far as production is concerned. A fast clean death is best for the animal and everyone involved.


Gringotts Bank said:


> I think we should be tolerant of the Indonesian Muslim culture and invite them to come and live in Australia.  I for one would be proud to have anyone and everyone who wants to live here come and be my neighbor.  You're all being racist.  Australia is the great melting pot, free for all to ruin.



Yes, yes, 'fck cultural relativism' etc, etc. 


LifeChoices said:


> Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but some people actually care about the way animals are treated, and think that animals are much more than the commodity, you paint them to be.



Maybe in loo-loo land. People stuff animal meat into their faces everyday, thinking only 'this stops me being hungry and tastes good'. Maybe for every 100 minutes they think of that, they might think of the animals involved for about 1 minute.


pixel said:


> So, you think a "single clean cut" doesn't hurt the animal? Doesn't leave it gasping for breath? Doesn't leave its brain alive for the last eternity of pain, while the blood slowly drains its life away?



Correct, religious practices such as kocher (where the animal has to be bled out whilst alive) are seriously twisted.


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## Wysiwyg (3 June 2011)

easylikesunday said:


> Hate to break it to ya people but it doesn't just happen in Indonesia. Cruelty would happen in 90% of the slaughter houses. Its not a racial thing.



Something the bleeding heart club doesn't know.


> The people who work that these places wouldn't see these animals as a living, feeling creature, they would simply see them as another slab of meat. They aren't greenie animal lovers.



One would need to be comfortable killing and after awhile one would be desensitised, feeling nothing at all. My butcher friend wasn't your typical soft touch. He prefers rare cooked meat. Yeesh.


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## LifeChoices (3 June 2011)




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## disarray (3 June 2011)

from a darwinian perspective, the best thing a species can do to ensure its survival is to be
1) tasty to humans, and
2) easily farmed

that said, cruelty should be minimised. it just shows how "primative" most of the world is with regards to human and animal rights.


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## pixel (4 June 2011)

While looking for a reference to an article in today's Weekend West, I came across this opinion piece by Louise Bourke: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/opinion/post/-/blog/louiseburke/post/232/comment/1/

The article I was after hasn't been put on the web yet; it compares the effect that two separate TV reports had on the collective national Soul. One being the 4 corners report, the other one run on SBS about some appalling conditions in Malaysian refugee camps. And the winner is... 

I'll say no more.


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## Julia (4 June 2011)

pixel said:


> The article I was after hasn't been put on the web yet; it compares the effect that two separate TV reports had on the collective national Soul. One being the 4 corners report, the other one run on SBS about some appalling conditions in Malaysian refugee camps. And the winner is...
> 
> I'll say no more.



Given you have not actually told us which of the two programs had the greater effect on the collective national soul, I'll assume your post is suggesting the one about animals had this greater effect?
I'm sure you'll quickly correct me if I'm wrong.

The implication of your post therefore seems to be that it's worse to inflict cruelty on human beings than on animals.  Why?
We all feel pain and terror.

That some people can view animals as creatures deserving of less respect and care than human beings is beyond me.  
Human beings at least have the capacity for cognition and language, understanding of the mechanics of their situation, to have a chance to alter their fate.
Animals lack even these basic capacities.


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## LifeChoices (4 June 2011)

Since seeing the program and thinking about being a meat eater, reading the posts I honestly don't think I would have an issue with slaughtering an animal myself for the purpose of consumption, as long as the whole carcase wasn't wasted. My feeling is that cows, sheep, tuna were put on this earth for consumption.

I currently buy meat from a butcher and buy clothes from a store. It is impractical for me to make my own clothes and kill my own animals for consumption.

When I read about Mark Zuccaburg killing his own meat, I thought he's doing a great thing and I wish I was in a position to do the same.

I don't think many people have problems with death and dying. The major problem I have is with disrespect of animals and cruelty.

Cruelty is the lowest of low - and I will never condone it.


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## Wysiwyg (4 June 2011)

This may irk some people but without bad there would be no good. No pleasure without a comparative pain.
This strange grey organ afforded to human has the ability to choose between pain and pleasure. Pleasure derived from inflicting pain on another organism is an unnatural choice. We don't see it in nature. 
Further evidence there is not a god because a creator would not create an organism that could conceive this thought. However this pleasure from inflicting pain could be a tangent from the basic survival meme. If the killing process is not critical to the humans survival then they could be trying to get attention (laughs, back slaps, acceptance, initiation etc.) from fellow workers.

You will find bullies and typical d/heads usually won't be nasty unless they have their (so thought) mates attention. Get them by themselves and they are completely different because they have no one to swell their ego-self with. 

I love the transparency of grey matter.


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## LifeChoices (4 June 2011)

bahahahaha - Dead to me


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## Country Lad (11 June 2011)

I had a concern about the program from the start seeing that it was filmed by an activist from an organisation whose objective is to shut down live exports and that the reporter later went to those places where the film was taken in a quick visit and did not do any investigative work.

However, I did not have any proof that it was a beatup so I accepted the story as being a half truth of the industry.

The following letter to the ABC is long but worth a read and now I am real concerned that the shutting down of the industry is based on a very one-sided biased presentation of a very small part of the truth.

In case anybody doubts who this guy is, the result of a quick google search is at the bottom of this post.

_Dear Sir,
I must introduce myself. My name is Scot Braithwaite and my life has basically revolved around live export since I was 10 years old. I was unloading cattle boats in Malaysia at the age of 13. I have worked for all the major cattle companies including as a Head Stockman in the Northern Territory. I have a degree in economics from the Queensland University and I personally have sold more than 1.5 million head of cattle into Indonesia since 1991. I am presently employed as the marketing manager for Wellard rural exports.

I am writing to you after the Monday program to say that although I abhor the treatment of the animals shown in the video, your one sided approach to the subject and the possible effect of that of a ban on live exports is too big a price to pay for a report based on the evidence of an organization that’s charter is to shut us down. I have the following points to make. 

I would like to have the same time as those who denigrated my life to show you the other side of our industry. To show you what is really going on. In Australia there used to be thing about “A fair Go”. You have gone with images provided by one person followed up by your investigative journalist who spent a week in Indonesia. 

Your report makes out that close to 100% of Australian cattle are treated as was shown on TV. 

1 the ship that appears in the footage “for less than 30 seconds” is a vessel that cost tens of millions of dollars to build. We have had 3 separate media groups sail with this ship and it can in no uncertain terms be described as best in class. The Wellard group has another 3 vessels of the same standard with another 2 being built in China. This is a total investment of 400 million dollars to ensure that livestock exports from Australia are undertaken at the utmost levels of cow comfort and animal welfare.

2 the feedlot that was filmed was given a 10 second view. This feedlot is without a doubt world class. Your viewers should have at least had the opportunity to view large numbers of cattle eating and sleeping comfortably in a fantastic facility. This company has in addition moved to kill all his cattle through stunning system that he has control of. This owner has spent 20 years of his life in the industry, has built his business from nothing, has done all that is required of him from an animal welfare point of view yet your reporter makes no mention of these things.

3 within A 3 HOUR DRIVE OR a 15 Minute helicopter there are another 3 world class facilities. All three feedlots including the one filmed, are at, or better than, what can be found in Australia. The cattle being fed, and the ration being fed, leads to a lot less animal health issues then a similar size operation in Australia.
One of these facilities is operated and owned by a large Australian pastoral house. They had no mention in your supposed unbiased report. The operation is run by a North Queensland man who, through His absolute dedication to excellence has built a feedlot and slaughtering system that his company, the industry and himself can be very proud of. The system is closed, all the cattle are already killed through their own abattoir. They import 20 to 25000 cattle year. They have been doing this for at least 5 years. Why should they be shut down? For what reason could anyone justify closing this operation down, especially without even bothering to look at what goes on.

4 the other world class feedlots that could have been investigated with a 3 hour ride in the car are owned by a large publicly listed Indonesian company. In all, they have on feed 50,000 cattle and import about 120,000 cattle a year. They have recently built an abattoir( the one that was briefly shown on the program) They built this 2 years ago as they knew that modern methods must come to Indonesia and they were willing to make the investment to make it happen. The total investment from these 3 feedlotters alone in infrastructure and stock is over 100 million dollars. 

Add to that the hundreds of millions that Wellard have recently invested in ships and do you really believe that these people would leave the final product to a murderous bastard with a blunt knife? 

They not only have tried to ensure the welfare of the animal but have made investments to make the changes all along the chain. These people deserve to have their side of the story heard. If the system is not perfect, and it isn’t, they have the wherewithal and the incentive to make it happen in a very short time.
These 3 importers who have shown a commitment to everything good about animal production, handle 45 % of total imports.

The other major issue that was not covered was the social responsibility that all feedlotters in Indonesia practice. Their operations are in relatively isolated poor areas; the feedlots provide employment opportunity, advancement through effort, and a market for thousands of tons of feedstuffs grown for the cattle. My understanding is that 8000 people are directly employed by the feedlots and over 1000000 people are reliant on the regular income made from supplying corn silage and other feedstuffs. This is not made up, it is fact. It can be easily checked. I will bet my 1000000 farmers against the 1000000 signatures on the ban order. 

It is very easy to sit in your comfortable chair and criticize but is it really worth the human cost to ban something that can be fixed and fixed reasonable quickly?

That is Sumatra. In JKT there is the largest privately owned abattoir that kills about 4 to 6000 heads a month. It is a well run facility that has no welfare issues. In addition it was working on getting a stun system in place well before the 4 corners report. No photos from here, yet this is another who has been doing the right thing and who will lose his business if the trade is banned.  The largest Importer in to Jakarta, has also built a slaughter facility in the past 12 months. It has not been commissioned yet but can be made ready within a month. They also have a private bone to pick with the program. 

AS was not reported in the show, abattoirs in Indonesia are operated by any number of individual ‘Wholesalers”. They control the space and the manpower kills their number for the night and then hand over to the next team. In any one night 8 to 10 separate operators can be using the same facility. In the case of the footage of the head slapping the camera panned to the cattle waiting and the tags of AA, Newcastle Waters and his company were made very prominent. 

Yes, they were there but the team that handled was different to one being filmed. They protest, that their crews are well trained, no head slapping occurs and very large and sharp knives are used to ensure a bloody but quick end. I have no reason to doubt them because I have seen a lot of their cattle handled at point of slaughter and their crews are well trained with immediate results.  Where can their case be heard? I have watched literally thousands of cattle slaughtered in the boxes in Indonesia. 

Yes there are problems, as there are at every point of slaughter on every type of animal in the world, but 98% of the cattle I watched killed was quick and without fuss. Why is there not one shot of what happens 98% of the time? The shots of outright cruelty are totally unacceptable and the slaughter of cattle is still gruesome and confronting but is not as prevalent as portrayed in your report. Yes it does some times happen but it is the exception not the rule. And we are already
taking steps to improve the system and we have the ability to ensure all animals are stunned in a very short time.

Yes there are a couple of operators who in the short term will not be able to handle the new way. But they will be dropped, no commitment to stunning, no supply. No negotiation. There are also a number of operators privately owned who were, to all intents and purposes, doing the right thing. They were asked to supply through the boxes and they have. They will be asked to only supply though a stunning FACILITY and they will. They have far too much invested in the whole industry over many years to not do as we ask.

I am asking for a fair go. You have been expertly manipulated. Hear the actual other side of the story let the Australian public see both sides. I am happy to make all the arrangements. 

This is too important to let sit with the images you portrayed on Monday without recourse. 

Scot Braithwaite_


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## Country Lad (11 June 2011)

Oops, forgot the google search:

A quick Google search can confirm his qualifications 
http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/wellard_rural_exports/international_expertise/scot_braithwaite.phtml

_Scot Braithwaite has had a long association with the cattle industry and South East Asia.

His family moved to Malaysia in 1972 where they ran an 8000 head extensive breeding operation at Keratong on the Pahang Johor border in West Malaysia. Two of Wellard’s current clients were clients of Scot’s father way back in 1976. 

Returning to Australia, Scot was a jackaroo on a number of northern stations and gained an economics degree from the University of Queensland.
After University he worked for the Northern Territory Government treasury, large pastoral empires Stanbroke Pastoral Company and Heytesbury Pastoral Company; and exporters Austrex, SEAF and Austasia.

Scot has a majority share of NFDH Cattle Company which is a joint venture partner with Wellard in South East Asia. He also is the chairman of JFDI Fine Foods which is a meat processing and retailing operation in Malaysia. 

Scot spends equal amounts of time in Indonesia and Malaysia and looks forward to the day when Wellard is exporting half a million cattle a year into the region._


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## trainspotter (11 June 2011)

Not wanting to sound or be read as a "crazed cow killer" ....... how else do you kill the beasts? Cut their throats, stun gun them or make them watch repeats of Seinfeld til they are truly brain dead.

Yes the images of cows being slapped and having their throats cut is disturbing. This is what happens in a "slaughterhouse". They were not going there to have their hooves trimmed now were they?

The other thing that ticks me off is that we have SOLD these cattle to Indonesia. Who are we to dictate what they do with them thereafter? Yes yes yes there were some disturbing practices going on by Australian standards. Remember Indo is a 3rd world country.

The iron ore we sell/send to China ... can we dictate to them what they do with the mineral after it has been smelted? As in dictate to China that the iron ore that Australia supplies cannot be used to manufacture military weapons? I think not.

I find a RODEO far more disturbing whereby animals are tortured in the name of "entertainment" by having a flank strap around a bulls genitals to make it kick harder. 

Australian live export trade is worth over a billion dollars a year let alone how many people it employs. To total ban it does not make sense.

On the other hand a GLUT of beef in the Australian market will only cause prices of sirloin to come crashing down to an edible (and affordable) level. RIGHT?


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## pilots (11 June 2011)

Country lad, top post, what the government has done will not SURPRISE any one, what can you expect from Labor, name ONE thing they have got right.
What do the bleeding hearts think about the Whaling.


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## Calliope (11 June 2011)

trainspotter said:


> The iron ore we sell/send to China ... can we dictate to them what they do with the mineral after it has been smelted? As in dictate to China that the iron ore that Australia supplies cannot be used to manufacture military weapons? I think not.




This ban is being imposed by the same hypocrites who claim that rising C02 emissions is a threat to mankind. Perhaps now we should say to the Chinese that we will stop our massive exports of coal until they assure us that it will not be converted into carbon pollution.


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## Julia (11 June 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Not wanting to sound or be read as a "crazed cow killer" ....... how else do you kill the beasts? Cut their throats, stun gun them or make them watch repeats of Seinfeld til they are truly brain dead.



There's nothing complicated about what is necessary.  Stun them into unconsciousness before killing.  Why should that be so hard?



> Yes the images of cows being slapped and having their throats cut is disturbing. This is what happens in a "slaughterhouse". They were not going there to have their hooves trimmed now were they?



As long as they are stunned quickly first then I doubt you will find many arguments about them being killed.  No one is trying to stop the production of animals for human consumption:  simply asking that they be properly treated.



> The other thing that ticks me off is that we have SOLD these cattle to Indonesia. Who are we to dictate what they do with them thereafter? Yes yes yes there were some disturbing practices going on by Australian standards. Remember Indo is a 3rd world country.



That's not really the point.  Animal cruelty should be abhorred wherever it occurs.



> I find a RODEO far more disturbing whereby animals are tortured in the name of "entertainment" by having a flank strap around a bulls genitals to make it kick harder.



That's also totally unacceptable imo.  Ditto bullfighting.
Why should people consider that animals are on this earth for their amusement?


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## trainspotter (11 June 2011)

Julia said:


> There's nothing complicated about what is necessary.  Stun them into unconsciousness before killing.  Why should that be so hard?
> 
> As long as they are stunned quickly first then I doubt you will find many arguments about them being killed.  No one is trying to stop the production of animals for human consumption:  simply asking that they be properly treated.
> 
> ...




Halal requires their throats to be cut facing a certain longitude and latitude. Whether or not this occurs is a different matter. The industry is trying to bring in stun gun use across the board at the cost of the Australian Meat Exporter. Humane treatment of ALL animals is what is the key here.

Abhorration of animal cruelty depends on the country. **** fighting is legal in Indonesia. Many customs that occur o/s is unacceptable here. I wont go into detail.

Tell that to a "cowboy" who is a rootin tootin kind. I have met many of these kind.


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## Glen48 (11 June 2011)

**** fighting is here in the Philippines every second house has a rooster tired to 3 ft of string and a placed under a hut of rubbish in the shape of a tee pee no one know they need food and water the locals bring around their roosters to test each rooster out  the Fight night the rooster has a spur on one leg and I have seen a DVD on a bus were a rooster was trying to walk away from an dead rooster with the spur still stuck in the dead one. Fights are big business here with a lot of money changing hands.
 The dying rooster is forced to keep fighting for as long as possible.. This is in place with the biggest Catholic following in the world ... Now let me start on pigs on concrete floors in steel pipe cages were the female is a just a machine to breed.

how do you change that?


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## trainspotter (11 June 2011)

My point exactly Clithero. My point exactly.


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## So_Cynical (12 June 2011)

There was a cartoon in the paper the other day that depicted a cow going into a slaughter house, the cow had a choice of 2 entry's into the slaughter house with signs above both.

One sign read humain death and the other in-human death..point being that death was the only option....this ban is really going to hurt the industry in the north, cost many jobs just to shore up green/left city votes in the south....rural Aust getting screwed yet again for city votes.


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## pilots (8 July 2011)

What a joke we are here, we tell Indonesia that you must stun your cows b4 you kill them, yet here in Australia we don't have to.


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## Calliope (9 July 2011)

I love it when the bulls get a bit of their own back. This may be a market indicator.









> PAMPLONA, Spain ”” An *Australian* man was gored in the leg and six other people were injured Friday as daredevils ran with fighting bulls at the San Fermin festival in Pamploma.
> The second of eight mad dashes at Spain's most famous summer festival featured bulls known for being fast and prone to poking people with their horns.
> The Navarra regional government said on its website that besides the 25-year-old gored man, six other people were treated at hospitals, *most of them foreigners*. None of their names or hometowns were given.
> Two Americans aged 22 and 21 – the first with an injured right leg, the second with a hurt lip – were treated and released. *The other four were a Briton from Birmingham, an Italian from Rome, another Australian and a Spaniard, all with minor injuries from falls or being trampled*.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...11_n_893375.html#s305765&title=Running_Of_The


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## Glen48 (11 July 2011)




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## drsmith (28 July 2011)

The ban may be lifted, but the government's still dragging the chain.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-28/20110728elders-cattle-delay/2814198


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## bellenuit (10 August 2011)

Sky News are reporting that a Liberal Senator (or was it an MP) is claiming that he has evidence that Animal Rights Activists bribed an Indonesian abattoir worker to perform the acts of cruelty for the news footage. I don't have any other details at this stage.


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## moXJO (11 August 2011)

bellenuit said:


> Sky News are reporting that a Liberal Senator (or was it an MP) is claiming that he has evidence that Animal Rights Activists bribed an Indonesian abattoir worker to perform the acts of cruelty for the news footage. I don't have any other details at this stage.




Yeah need confirmation if it's true or not. It's been floating round for a while.



> THE row over live cattle exports has reignited amid claims Indonesian peasant meat workers were bribed to mistreat animals for explosive television footage that sparked a four-week suspension of the industry.
> 
> Liberal senator Chris Back made the allegations before a Senate committee yesterday, raising the possibility that the damaging shutdown of the $320 million-a-year industry could have been based on a lie.
> 
> ...



Too early to make a call without info. If it is true heads should be thoroughly kicked though
Where the F are all the investigative journalists in this country, the just seem to focus on the latest celebrities hair or boob exposure.


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## Trish (11 December 2011)

I am appalled at the slaughter but why are we going Hal Al in Australia. we are all eating meat and poulty killed by a Muslim slaughter man after he has cut the throats of the animals and said his prayers. Why are Australians being forced to consume this food. All the supermarkets are serving Hal Al and the poultry people Inghams and steggles also. Most of the abattoirs in Australia slaughter that way. Why are we laying down and letting this happen. We all should be outraged. I know it is a financial decision but not at the expense of your fellow Australians because some people get really upsry over the animals and some people have beliefs that really mean a lot to them.


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## LifeChoices (11 December 2011)

I guess because we are



Trust me, no one wants to watch this to the end - most disturbing. I think I made it to the three minute mark.


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