# Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace



## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

The pathetic sentences handed down by our courts are in too many cases a disgrace. I don't know why their isn't more retribution by victims and their families.



> A mother of a baby girl killed by a speeding drunk driver described her heartbreak as the man who mowed them down was sentenced to a minimum 22 months jail by a Perth court.
> 
> Benjamin Alan Butler, 25, of Thornlie in Perth's south-east, ran over Tania Moorby and her 11-month-old daughter Grace as they stood in the driveway of their Thornlie home on April 18 this year.
> 
> ...


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

*Re: Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace........*

17 years and then they *let him out* to live next to, perhaps YOU ?

Why not life ??? or wasnt stabbing someone 48 times bad enough.



> Teen gets 17 years for schoolgirl's brutal murder
> A teenager has been jailed for at least 17 years for stabbing a 15-year-old girl to death on her way home from school.
> 
> Tania Burgess was stabbed 48 times as she took a shortcut through the grounds of the Forresters Beach Resort on the New South Wales central coast in July 2005.


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## prawn_86 (14 November 2008)

*Re: Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace........*



MrBurns said:


> 17 years and then they *let him out* to live next to, perhaps YOU ?
> 
> Why not life ??? or wasnt stabbing someone 48 times bad enough.




If he wasnt trialled as an adult then he cant get life im pretty sure


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

*Re: Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace........*



prawn_86 said:


> If he wasnt trialled as an adult then he cant get life im pretty sure




He was young at the time but there are plenty of other cases where the sentence doesnt fit the crime, I'll keep posting when I see them.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (14 November 2008)

Mr Burns you are not the only thinking Australia is a joke and has lost the plot.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

Bailed ? why not lock the creep up till the Court date !!!



> An 18- year old man has been charged with 15 offences following an alleged road rage incident earlier this week.
> 
> A woman had reported being threatened with a firearm on the Hume Highway at Somerton on Tuesday, after she accidentally cut off a motorcyclist.
> 
> ...


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## Happy (14 November 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Mr Burns you are not the only thinking Australia is a joke and has lost the plot.




I have many questions:

Why penalty has to fit the crime, and why it could not be so severe that potential offenders would have second thoughts before committing the crime?
Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?
Why prisoners are allowed to do nothing instead of contributing at least 100% to their keep?
Why we do not have mandatory linkage to previous crimes, as we can clearly see that some criminals make crime their way of life and they are just recidivists?
Why barristers take cases, know that offenders did the crime and use loopholes to get accused of the hook, don’t they have conscience?

I better stop here, as it doesn’t matter what I think or what I ask.
I too think they lost the plot or I expect too much.


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## chops_a_must (14 November 2008)

Happy said:


> Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?



They aren't.

There are stories here of prisoners wanting to help other prisoners to learn how to read, but are disallowed from doing so. No wonder they end up back there. 

And there have been recent cases where prisoners are released without having the appropriate treatment (sex offenders) when they were having that treatment on the outside, which is a disgrace.



Happy said:


> Why prisoners are allowed to do nothing instead of contributing at least 100% to their keep?



Most of them have jobs inside.



Happy said:


> I too think they lost the plot or I expect too much.



Or you don't have a clue.


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## prawn_86 (14 November 2008)

Essentially our prisons are under funded and under staffed like everything else provided by the magnificent Australian government.

The whole re-hab vs. punishment debate could probably be a new thread.

Tougher penalties and harsher sentencing along with increased death penalties in the US has had mixed effects. No-one can say for certain it reduced crime.

There is obviously something wrong on a very basic level that needs to be addressed if crime is to ever be reduced. Harsher penalties dont seem to work unfortunately


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

Happy said:


> I have many questions:
> 
> Why penalty has to fit the crime, and why it could not be so severe that potential offenders would have second thoughts before committing the crime?
> Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?
> ...




Barristors and the Courts only deal in *THE LAW* - justice has nothing to do with it.

It sucks big time and lets very bad people out onto the streets giving the police more work to do.


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## chops_a_must (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> It sucks big time and lets very bad people out onto the streets giving the police more work to do.



And if the police weren't totally incompetent, the same would be the case.

There has been some fairly high profile cases of late in Perth which has let accused murderers off the hook, and makes police look worse than their stereotype.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Essentially our prisons are under funded and under staffed like everything else provided by the magnificent Australian government.
> 
> The whole re-hab vs. punishment debate could probably be a new thread.
> 
> ...




Harsher penalties would work if you just locked these creeps up till someone could say with reasonable certainty that they wont re offend.

And if they cant well they just stay there ! offenders should have their "rights" recinded also, too many psycho's appealing their already ridiculously lenient sentences.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> And if the police weren't totally incompetent, the same would be the case.
> 
> There has been some fairly high profile cases of late in Perth which has let accused murderers off the hook, and makes police look worse than their stereotype.




I sympathise with the police, how would you like to risk your life apprehending some low life only to have the judge let him out on bail or give him a slap on the wrist.


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## prawn_86 (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Harsher penalties would work if you just locked these creeps up till someone could say with reasonable certainty that they wont re offend.
> 
> And if they cant well they just stay there ! offenders should have their "rights" recinded also, too many psycho's appealing their already ridiculously lenient sentences.




No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.

It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.


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## chops_a_must (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> I sympathise with the police, how would you like to risk your life apprehending some low life only to have the judge let him out on bail or give him a slap on the wrist.




I have no sympathy for police to be honest.

There are protocols they have to follow for good reason, so that they can't plant evidence. They have failed that test recently.

And I know they don't charge people if it becomes too hard, especially with traffic offences. Car went straight through a stop sign and brought me down off a motorbike, despite witnesses, no charges were laid. And the same thing happened to a friend of mine when her car was t-boned by someone going straight through a stop sign.

Nah, until they do their job properly, I wont give them any sympathy. And nor do they deserve it. Dr Death doesn't get any sympathy for incompetence, and I extend that same mindset to any one else equally incompetent.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.
> 
> It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.




The crime rate may not go down much but removing certain people from society , permanently, would certainly help matters.

Some have mental issues for sure and they aren't cured by jail time, they are just "punished' not cured and let out to re offend in many cases.

Take pedophiles, they have a sexual attraction to children, what good does jail do ? they need treatment BUT they should not be let loose until cured, if no cure then no release and I'm not sure there is a "cure" for a sexual preference.

Sentencing and punishment is a huge issue thats bugged me for years.


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## chops_a_must (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Take pedophiles, they have a sexual attraction to children, what good does jail do ? they need treatment BUT they should not be let loose until cured, if no cure then no release and I'm not sure there is a "cure" for a sexual preference.



But like I said above, what if there are not the programs inside?

Hardly fair if someone is _willing_ to undergo that treatment, and it is not provided, that they are continued to be locked up.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I have no sympathy for police to be honest.
> 
> There are protocols they have to follow for good reason, so that they can't plant evidence. They have failed that test recently.
> 
> ...





The police are constrained by the courts and in the end they just go with it, they have to deal with this crap for a job, every day , cant be easy.

Nixon in Victoria has turned them into social workers, we need areal hard nose in there knocking heads together backed by a State Govt that gives a rats, Brumby is a waste of space.

BUT if there's trouble they expect the police to come and stand between them and a killer.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> But like I said above, what if there are not the programs inside?
> 
> Hardly fair if someone is _willing_ to undergo that treatment, and it is not provided, that they are continued to be locked up.





I still dont think there's a case for releasing a mental case thats already offended.

Gees it's 2008 cant they work it out ?


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## Happy (14 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.
> 
> It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.





I’ll digress a little; we do not have enough money to provide free travel for children to attend school.
We do not have enough money to eliminate hospital elective surgery waiting lists, nor make dental care more affordable, nor have enough police to PREVENT CRIME, nor enough money to provide higher education at better prices that it is now, and the list if almost endless, obesity, diabetics, drugs dependence not to mention that some parents are not fit to raise children (this is where most bad seeds are sprouting)

We do cull problematic animals.

And we worry so much and build more and more >rehabilitation centres< as numbers just keep growing
(We even import more and more problems from overseas – just yesterday in Adelaide, Sudanese underage refugees had a knives out day)

I read article that one day there will be not enough carers for those who need care and hard decisions will have to be made, 

Until then lets pretend that nothing can be made about everything that is wrong and let the avalanche just roll into too difficult basket.


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## AlterEgo (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Bailed ? why not lock the creep up till the Court date !!!




Because in this country you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

Happy said:


> I’ll digress a little; we do not have enough money to provide free travel for children to attend school.
> We do not have enough money to eliminate hospital elective surgery waiting lists, nor make dental care more affordable, nor have enough police to PREVENT CRIME, nor enough money to provide higher education at better prices that it is now, and the list if almost endless, obesity, diabetics, drugs dependence not to mention that some parents are not fit to raise children (this is where most bad seeds are sprouting)
> 
> We do cull problematic animals.
> ...




No problem finding a lazy $10.5B for the bailout though, that took ohhhh about 10 minutes.


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## prawn_86 (14 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> No problem finding a lazy $10.5B for the bailout though, that took ohhhh about 10 minutes.




Exactly. 

It comes back to mankinds inherent greed and desire to look after oneselves. Politicians do this by looking after those that will keep them in power, banks do this by making sure they are too big to fail so management can keep getting fat paycheques.

There is nothing to entice enough naturally greedy humans to look after others, be it drs, nurses, prison guards etc.


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## MrBurns (21 November 2008)

Another disgraceful example of our laws at work - 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669330




> Girl's sex attacker moves next door
> 
> 
> Two weeks ago, the Macquarie Fields man finished serving a sentence of five years and two months for an attack on his young neighbour, and immediately moved back into his home.
> ...


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## Calliope (21 November 2008)

AlterEgo said:


> Because in this country you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.




So murderer Gordon Wood has been innocent for the past 13 years Do you mean "presumed innocent"?  Not many people outside our cumbersome legal system shared this presumption.


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## MrBurns (24 November 2008)

Another lame and disgraceful decision - 



> Bail for man accused of 11yo's rape
> 
> An Adelaide man charged with raping an 11-year-old boy and taking photographs of the alleged assault has been granted bail in the Magistrates Court.
> 
> ...


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## white_crane (25 November 2008)

Wow, there are quite a few draconian sounding attitudes here...

And whilst I believe that there are some instances where the sentence was too lenient, I'd like to think that we've moved past the times when your hand was cut off for stealing a loaf of bread.



Put your hand up all those who can honestly say that they have never committed any crime.


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## noirua (26 November 2008)

I'm all for setting up work camps where prisoners are sentenced to points. 10 years in prison would be 20,000 work points. After each days work, points out of 10 would be given, and anyone lazing around could stay for a very long time indeed.

Every time a prisoner gets 10 points then $10 would be added to a savings account for them. Improving their chances on release.

Extra points would be added for various offences whilst in custody.

Studying and passing examinations etc., would reduce points and would be an incentive.


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## MrBurns (19 December 2008)

Pathetic - 







> Police say he is dangerous and should not be approached.



 what was he doing in home detention ????????????

Incompetent ****wits......



> Sydney paedophile on the run
> 
> Posted 32 minutes ago
> 
> ...


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## Happy (19 December 2008)

> Police say he is dangerous and should not be approached.





Why was he let go then, bracelet or not?


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## MrBurns (19 December 2008)

Exactly, just lock em' up and throw away the key.
I'm sick of our justice system finding every way possible at great expense to the taxpayer of making life easy for worthless trash.


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## Calliope (19 December 2008)

Most criminals are not sent to jail because the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton.  

The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.


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## MrBurns (19 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> Most criminals are not sent to jail because the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton.
> 
> The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.




I've always been an advocate of building larger jails for that reason.

You cant "punish" a child sex offender, they are sick and should be locked up for good, I'll pay more tax for that project.

Why the hell does it cost so much to keep people in a cage, it's bull****.


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## Happy (19 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> .. Why the hell does it cost so much to keep people in a cage, it's bull****.





Offenders should contribute more to their keep, with little bit more forced labour they could be not only zero cost but even profitable.


Grafitti vandals and any other vandals could be treated the same way, pay back more to the community than original offence.
This cuould deter from offending in a first place, even if not it would pay to have scum.
Eiher way community would be a winner.


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## MrBurns (19 December 2008)

Happy said:


> Offenders should contribute more to their keep, with little bit more forced labour they could be not only zero cost but even profitable.




I guess that would involve someone at Govt level actually thinking, it just wont happen.


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## MrBurns (22 December 2008)

From the NineMSN web site, another disgraceful sentence.




> Youths get detention over fatal bashing
> 
> A man sentenced to youth detention for his part in a vicious bashing which killed a university mathematician *smiled as he was handed his sentence on Monday*.
> 
> ...


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## Calliope (22 December 2008)

They probably used the Queensland defence. It goes something like this;

Criminal: Sure judge, I punched  him and knocked him down, and I kicked him in the head a few times. But I didn't mean to kill him.

Judge: You didn't mean to kill him?

Criminal: Why would I want to kill him?  He was just a random victim.

Judge: That's all right then. I will instruct the jury to acquit you. Just try to keep your assaults non-lethal in future.


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## Bushman (22 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> From the NineMSN web site, another disgraceful sentence.




I must say I was shocked at this one too. Three years for going 'curry bashing' and beating a defenseless man to death for a few dollars? 

I am all for giving young people a second chance but a man died and the perpetrators get three years? What value a life? I shake my head sometimes.


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## MrBurns (22 January 2009)

Another one, no matter he killed 2 people he's been a good boy lets let him out among the public.



> Man who murdered pregnant wife out early
> 
> A man who shot dead his pregnant wife on the NSW south coast will be free within two weeks after being granted parole eight years before his maximum jail term expired.
> 
> ...


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## Aussiejeff (22 January 2009)

Calliope said:


> Most criminals are not sent to jail because *the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton*.
> 
> The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.




What price BIG, EMPTY, DISMAL detention centres? 

The Man Of Steel Who Shall Not Be Named chucked loads of half-starved child refugees in 'em. 

I can't for the life of me see why recidivist social miscreants can't have an extended holiday in 'em instead. The damned things are ALREADY built  - and WAITING to be fed truckloads of society's trash.   


aj


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## Julia (22 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> What price BIG, EMPTY, DISMAL detention centres?
> 
> The Man Of Steel Who Shall Not Be Named chucked loads of half-starved child refugees in 'em.
> 
> ...



Completely agree.  And without air conditioning.


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## Calliope (22 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> I can't for the life of me see why recidivist social miscreants can't have an extended holiday in 'em instead. The damned things are ALREADY built  - and WAITING to be fed truckloads of* society's trash.*




The problem is that what we see as *trash*, our judicial system sees as *treasure* worth recycling...over and over.


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## Happy (22 January 2009)

Calliope said:


> The problem is that what we see as *trash*, our judicial system sees as *treasure* worth recycling...over and over.




Using a little bit of conspiracy therory there could be some self-interest in it.

More crims out, more trouble, more cases, longer queues, guaranteed job for yonks, good pay too and community respect.

You cannot ask for more!


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## Aussiejeff (22 January 2009)

Happy said:


> Using a little bit of conspiracy therory there could be some self-interest in it.
> 
> More crims out, more trouble, more cases, longer queues, guaranteed job for yonks, good pay too and community respect.
> 
> You cannot ask for more!




I'm Happy to announce you get the Daily Lateral Thinking Award!

Indeed, what is probably the BIGGEST business in Oz?

CRIME!!!

*Crime & Co.* employs an awesome number of: Lawyers, judges, solicitors, police, jail wardens, journos, pollies, all manner of contractors & service providers and of course the BIGGEST employment category of all - CRIMS!  

Yep. I'm with you Happy. We need to spend MORE on creating crime!! Anyone want to help me set up a MegaPonzi scheme? LOL


aj


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## orr (23 January 2009)

grammer, sintax, pro's, spell'n, general litracy, not just the sentancing


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

Child molestors get less than this in some cases, I guess thats because the judiciary are more sympathetic to child molestors than graffitti artists, perhaps because they identify more closely with them.




> Sydney teenager jailed for graffiti
> 
> An 18-year-old woman with no criminal record has been jailed for three months for writing one word of graffiti on the wall of an inner-Sydney cafe.
> 
> ...


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## cuttlefish (3 February 2009)

Yeah this is ridiculous - no prior offences, 18 years old and she pleaded guilty. What a ridiculously harsh sentence when multiple offenders get good behaviour bonds for anything from break and enter to rape.   She carried out the act with a male friend that handed her the paint - I mean she's 18, easily influenced and was probably trying to prove herself to her man.    A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.

The judges are senile.


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## Bushman (3 February 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> Yeah this is ridiculous - no prior offences, 18 years old and she pleaded guilty. What a ridiculously harsh sentence when multiple offenders get good behaviour bonds for anything from break and enter to rape.   She carried out the act with a male friend that handed her the paint - I mean she's 18, easily influenced and was probably trying to prove herself to her man.    A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.
> 
> The judges are senile.




Please tell me she has not had a conviction recorded? That will ruin her ability to get work. Talk about a punishment completely out of proportion to a $200 crime. 

Yet, in melbourne, there is a story about the on-going trauma of a family of lecturer (a Mr Cao) who was beaten to death by a group of cowardly thugs. The perpetartors sentence - two years in juvenile detention!! Two f'cken years for a man's life. I am shocked by the manifest inadequacy of that sentence. Apparently they had gone out looking for someone to bash 'who would not fight back'. The family's trauma has been amplified by the ridiculous sentence.  

What value a 30cm grafitti scrawl, what value an educated man's life?


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

Bushman said:


> Yet, in melbourne, there is a story about the on-going trauma of a family of lecturer (a Mr Cao) who was beaten to death by a group of cowardly thugs. The perpetartors sentence - two years in juvenile detention!! Two f'cken years for a man's life. I am shocked by the manifest inadequacy of that sentence. Apparently they had gone out looking for someone to bash 'who would not fight back'. The family's trauma has been amplified by the ridiculous sentence.
> 
> What value a 30cm grafitti scrawl, what value an educated man's life?




I'm suprised there isnt more retribution.


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## Aussiejeff (3 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm suprised there isnt more retribution.




That's because we, the people, have been suffocating & drowning in a sea of total, abject judgemental mediocrity for far, far too long. Like having to sit through endless, boring, ridiculous TV ads, we are becoming numbed by the ineptitude of our judiciary system.  

Frankly, when you are an o-o-o-ld fart of 58 like me and have just read about the 10,000th "totally inadequate" sentence, it's hard to think anymore of what can be done - apart from a people's revolution.

And that's another story in another thread....


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## Trevor_S (3 February 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.




I don't think that is an option, my understanding is the Union movement lobbied  Government some time ago so that community service orders can't be used where there is a chance of taking someones job.

It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...


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## nunthewiser (3 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...




no ppl are wondering why a FIRST OFFENDER on a minor crime was jailed ....geez a bloke in perth years back killed a cabbie and ended up doing 6 months .nick somethin or other .balga boy .you think that was fair ?

a pedophile gets 3-6 ,months for DESTROYING someones life PLUS gets counselling and allsorts of programs PLUS locked away in there own lil special section . you think thats fair ?

some silly little girl that did a cupla hundred bucks damage to property on a first offense gets jailed for 3 months with other hardened crims and maybe to become one herself from the experience .you think thats fair ?

i think what people are trying to point out IS that the justice system is full of ****


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## Julia (3 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> I don't think that is an option, my understanding is the Union movement lobbied  Government some time ago so that community service orders can't be used where there is a chance of taking someones job.
> 
> It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...



Trevor, I think it's more the inconsistencies that are so mind boggling.
A jail sentence for a word of graffiti is surely way over the top, but repeatedly there are examples of pathetically inadequate sentences when someone's life has been taken or irreparably damaged.


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...




Well they are both arent they, I think some judges simply do not understand the concept of "justice".

As far as retribution goes it will happen if the certain pro active people are wronged by a judges incompetance.


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## cuttlefish (3 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...




As Julia say's - its the lack of consistency thats aggravating.   In Queensland nine males that gang raped a 10 year old girl in 2007 (the oldest male was 26) all got off without any jail sentence.

So what does the sentencing system tell us?  gang rape isn't as bad as graffitti?  

The judge should go to blinking jail for being a brain dead senile idiot.


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

I seriously believe there is a section of the judiciary that are pedophile sympathizers and others who think rape is the womans fault or not a serious crime.


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## Happy (3 February 2009)

> From ABC, 3 Feb. 09
> 
> REES APPLAUDS TEEN VANDAL'S JAIL SENTENCE
> 
> ...




Agree with previous posters that penalties are disproportionate, but I would lift charges for - murder, rape, arson and few other things like drugs production and sale.

3 months jail for graffiti looks perfectly OK to me and I agree with Mr Rees’ comment.

Of course if I could suggest, jails should be self sufficient, as well as penalty should include few thousand hours of community work preferably cleaning up graffiti.

Penalty must be so bad, that potential offenders would think twice before offending, as it is now it is out of hand.


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

Happy said:


> Agree with previous posters that penalties are disproportionate, but I would lift charges for - murder, rape, arson and few other things like drugs production and sale.
> 
> 3 months jail for graffiti looks perfectly OK to me and I agree with Mr Rees’ comment.
> 
> ...




I dont agree at all, if they were going to pick on someone why didnt they get one of the gangs that do this all day, pathetic action by a pathetic system.


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## Bushman (3 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I dont agree at all, if they were going to pick on someone why didnt they get one of the gangs that do this all day, pathetic action by a pathetic system.




Its like busting kids at music festivals for drugs using sniffer dogs. Seems that the girl who died at the Perth Big Day Out panicked when she saw the sniffer dogs and consumed her whole stash, leading to her overdose and death. Now her death is self-induced to a degree but, at 17, you do stupid reckless things and society should be trying to protect you from your own immature decision-making. *The police and sniffer dogs should be at the airports and ports busting the malicious gangs that import these gawd awful substances, not scaring kids who have a few pills on them for recreational use into taking their stash*!! Bloody stupid, highly foreseeable, and another kid that has been sacrificed to the system.  

And I am sure the 'tough on crims' Premier of WA will be supporting the cops on this too.


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## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

Doncha sometimes just feel like joining the Hells Angels or the Mafia, they know justice and how to dish it out.


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## gav (3 February 2009)

6 months ago my coach's cousin was stabbed after school.  After being beaten up by a gang of 6, two guys held him, whilst one stabbed him through the left side of the chest.  Missed the heart by 1cm.  Poor kid was in intensive care for a week, in hospital for months and missed half of year12 and exams because of it.

Only 2 of the offenders where tried.  The hearing was yesterday.  6 months jail for attempted murder and causing grevious bodily harm.  WTF?!  Pathetic...


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## nunthewiser (3 February 2009)

wanna hear a story ??

a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .

a local and his mate decided to stir him up by being rude and disrespectful to his wife 

he sent his wife and his kids back to the hotel room which is part of the pub and took this local lad outside and gave him a slap to correct his manners , after which he returned to his hotel room to order room service for dinner instead of the hassle of eating in the pub

the two locals followed him to his room and promptly kicked the door in and attempted to attack him 

he stabbed the pair of them with his steak knife to defend himself and his family

he is currently in casurina prison serving a sentence of 7 years awaiting his apeal on grounds of self defence .

is this justice ?

admiteddly he may have turned the other cheek regarding being in the pub and retaliating in the first place to there smut and disrespect to his family . how many of YOU would ? i know i wouldnt .

a good man caught in a bad situation

i apologise if this is innapropriate for this thread and maybe most here couldnt care less but to me its a bloody farce that this man is jailed for standing up and protecting himself and his family


----------



## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> wanna hear a story ??
> 
> a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .
> 
> ...




Don.t aplogise Nun thats what this thread is all about. The BS that goes on daily is beyond a joke but I dont see anyone doing anything about it, this is the SYSTEM and thats it, 

I'm going to think hard before I vote next time.


----------



## MrBurns (3 February 2009)

gav said:


> 6 months ago my coach's cousin was stabbed after school.  After being beaten up by a gang of 6, two guys held him, whilst one stabbed him through the left side of the chest.  Missed the heart by 1cm.  Poor kid was in intensive care for a week, in hospital for months and missed half of year12 and exams because of it.
> 
> Only 2 of the offenders where tried.  The hearing was yesterday.  6 months jail for attempted murder and causing grevious bodily harm.  WTF?!  Pathetic...




If you were related to that kid you'd feel inclined to organise a welcome for those guys when they got out.


----------



## gav (3 February 2009)

Far out, I really feel for your friend Nun...  The topic for this thread is "Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace", so your story is definitely relevant.

I could have been in a similar situation myself last week.  On one of the 40 degree nights my g/f and I walked to the corner store for an ice cream.  We walked past a drunken yobbo.  He stood in front of me and said "Hot b*** you got there" (referring to my g/f).  He also mentioned other explicits referring what he would like to do to my g/f, obviously I'm not going to post what he said.  From the look on his face, it was obvious he wanted to fight.

He had an older man with him (in his 50's, possibly his Dad?) who tried to drag him away.  It took everything in me NOT to smash him.  We just walked away.  

I now know I did the right thing.  Can you imagine if I punched him and he hit his head on the concrete path?  I would be stuffed if it went to court - he was drunk, so they'd say he wasn't responsible for his actions.  I would have been the one that hit him first, making me the aggressor.  He would have had severe injuries, at worst I would have busted knuckles.  Oh, and I outweigh him by a good 20KG.

I wish your friend all the best for his appeal.


----------



## MrBurns (5 February 2009)

How dare the authorities allow this piece of **** out to mix mith you and I



> Wife killer walks free -
> 
> Convicted murderer Brian Corrigan has been released from a Sydney jail after serving his minimum 16-and-a-half-year jail sentence for killing his pregnant wife.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/05/2482945.htm


----------



## pilots (5 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> wanna hear a story ??
> 
> a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .
> 
> ...




What bugs me is your friend got seven years, had he had been in trouble b4, and on drugs he would of only got a two year good behaver bond, the sentencing is a joke.


----------



## Calliope (12 February 2009)

It took nearly a week of court trial wasting the judiciary's time and costing the taxpayer scores of thousands to find out what every man and his dog knew...that Angela Liati is a liar. And the judge told her she is not likely to get a custodial sentence. And she is going to appeal.:dunno:


----------



## MrBurns (12 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> It took nearly a week of court trial wasting the judiciary's time and costing the taxpayer scores of thousands to find out what every man and his dog knew...that Angela Liati is a liar. And the judge told her she is not likely to get a custodial sentence. And she is going to appeal.:dunno:




If our taxes were spent properly you could probably halve them.


----------



## Calliope (19 February 2009)

Sentencing is a problem. When to remit the sentence and let them out is also a problem.

In England, doctors  have decided that Peter Sutcliffe  the  Yorkshire Ripper mass murderer, is no longer dangerous and is fit for release.  A psychiatrist said 







> He is effectively cured as long as he never stops taking medication




He is 62 and has been in jail for 28 years, the last 25 of which have been in Broadmoor  where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.


----------



## MrBurns (19 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> Sentencing is a problem. When to remit the sentence and let them out is also a problem.
> 
> In England, doctors  have decided that Peter Sutcliffe  the  Yorkshire Ripper mass murderer, is no longer dangerous and is fit for release.  A psychiatrist said
> 
> He is 62 and has been in jail for 28 years, the last 25 of which have been in Broadmoor  where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.




Why would you let him out, what sort of life would he have anyway, In a pub "Yes I'm the Yorkshire ripper but I'm ok now", 50 people move to the other end of the bar.
I'ts just bull****, he should be kept in jail, any fool can see that.


----------



## Calliope (19 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Why would you let him out, what sort of life would he have anyway, In a pub "Yes I'm the Yorkshire ripper but I'm ok now", 50 people move to the other end of the bar.




Yes, and if  he is anything like me after a few pints he will forget to take his medication. The girls on the game will be diving for cover then.


----------



## MrBurns (19 February 2009)

His medication has only been tested in jail wait till he gets out and sees all the lovely future victims, he's got a lot to catch up on.

It's a waste of time and money to even consider releasing people like this, it's wrong. it's unwise, it's risky, it's unjust to the victims relatives and not an action that people who pay taxes want their money applied to, they expect better.


----------



## Happy (19 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> ..
> 
> It's a waste of time and money to even consider releasing people like this, it's wrong. it's unwise, it's risky, it's unjust to the victims relatives and not an action that people who pay taxes want their money applied to, they expect better.





That’s why I believe that some are only good for spare parts, if somebody doesn’t mind the >connection<


----------



## daisy (20 February 2009)

I have a friend who was dragged off the street, bashed in the head with a rock, raped and left for dead. (in Qld) She survived. 
The b. was caught but because he was a non-secretor (?) it couldn’t be proven. He walked from the court a free man.
This isn't such a big town. I also knew one of the jurors. He didn't know my friend but he was very unhappy about the verdict. He said that given what they had to go on,the jury had no choice.
After this, it was then revealed that the rapist was on parole (and guilty of violating his parole by going AWOL) in S.A. for exactly the same offence. And that was not his first sexual offence. Memory fails me, but there were at least 2 others prior to that. This couldn't be revealed during the court case because it was predujicial
He was returned to S.A.  
About a year later, my friend received a phone call from a journalist informing her that this animal had done it yet again and what were her comments.

I have another friend who works for Correctional Services (Probation and Parole.) One aspect of his job is jailhouse programmes for sexual offenders. I'm not saying he isn't an intelligent man but his qualifications are an Arts degree with a major in English Literature.


----------



## Happy (20 February 2009)

> From ABC, 20 Feb. 09
> 
> MEDIA BANNED FROM COURT FOR 'BREATHTAKING HYPOCRISY'
> 
> ...





Not exactly on subject as four alleged offenders not sentenced yet, but the biggest concern is for >rehabilitation prospects< and >to avoid any more damage to the youths<


I hope similar or better care is offered toward a 13-year old.


----------



## Calliope (21 February 2009)

NewsCom


> Swimming champion Nick D'Arcy admits to alcohol problem in sentencing hearing.
> D’Arcy awaits his fate
> NICK D'Arcy has personally apologised for a devastating punch he landed on a fellow swimmer, but admits he drunkenly threatened a bouncer last month saying "one hit is all it takes".
> 
> ...




I doubt very much whether this young thug will get a jail sentence, even though he has a history of violent thuggery

In the past this spoilt brat's rich doting parents have tried to keep him out of the news with the chequebook

Simon Cowley received some very nasty injuries. I hope he sues D'Arcy for everything he and his parents have got.


----------



## daisy (21 February 2009)

Our paper reports most court cases each day. There was one particular lawyer who made a name for himself representing every piece of scum in this town. He's gone from here now, but I used to wonder how he slept at night for worrying about his children walking the streets with the rapists and child molestors he had helped put in their path.


----------



## nulla nulla (21 February 2009)

Maybe it is time to rethink the merits of capital punishment for serious crimes. A short drop with a quick stop would eliminate the expense of prolonged detention and repeat offending after release from serving sentences. These people are rarely rehabilitated. Making hangings public may be a better deterant to those misguided copy cat criminals. These days, with all the sensational media attention criminals get, it often appears that the media is trying to make the criminals look like the ones that are hard done by, instead of the victoms.


----------



## daisy (21 February 2009)

While I have also expressed similar thoughts, regarding the death sentence, from time to time, it’s usually been in frustration at sentencing and recidivism. I kind of understood the facebook posts. But, I don’t know if I would actually be comfortable with the reality.
I think society needs to move away from the idea of punishment of sociopathic offenders and instead move towards the notion of protecting the rest of us from such people. Lock them up and throw away the key would achieve this without causing all the emotional conflict regarding death sentencing.
If it means that we, as taxpayers, have to support them for the rest of their miserable lives then personally I think that’s a small price to pay for our protection and security.


----------



## Calliope (21 February 2009)

daisy said:


> I think society needs to move away from the idea of punishment of sociopathic offenders and instead move towards the notion of protecting the rest of us from such people. Lock them up and throw away the key would achieve this without causing all the emotional conflict regarding death sentencing.
> If it means that we, as taxpayers, have to support them for the rest of their miserable lives then personally I think that’s a small price to pay for our protection and security.




Daisy you are right. Dare I suggest the dreaded words "Concentration Camps" where the predators could be segregated quite cheaply, and at the same time put to useful employment.


----------



## Happy (21 February 2009)

daisy said:


> While I have also expressed similar thoughts, regarding the death sentence, from time to time, it’s usually been in frustration at sentencing and recidivism. I kind of understood the facebook posts. But, I don’t know if I would actually be comfortable with the reality.
> 
> ..





I don’t have the same hesitation; maybe I got used to life being snuffed out for no reason, that I quietly accept the need of terminal punishment too.

In Australia annual road fatality about 1000 a year, US about 25,000 a year.
Various accidents, recent bushfire took 208, maybe more.

There are numerous murders too, so for me few more few less doesn’t make that much difference.

I rather see them as liability, there is danger of wrongful death, but it would not be deliberate and taking into account that so many innocent lives are taken out for no other reason than being in a wrong place, I can live with that too.

I would rather spend $60,000 a year for the rest of life on free dental care / hospitals instead any day.

In recession it makes even more sense.

Maybe one day.


But Australia is not alone with lenient sentencing >




> From ABC, 20 Feb. 09
> 
> MEN GET LIFE FOR NZ DRIVE-BY SHOOTING
> By New Zealand correspondent Kerri Ritchie
> ...


----------



## Calliope (21 February 2009)

It's a crazy world. The other day we were talking about the dangers of releasing the Yorkshire ripper. The doctors say he will not re-offend  providing he continues to take his schizophrenia medication.

And now we have the case of Cornelia Rau being arrested in Jordan for behaving erratically after failing to take her medication. The very rich Ms Rau has, of course, many supporters and advisers, and they are blaming the Australian authorities for failing to protect her. Ironically the only way to make Ms Rau take her medication would be to lock her up again, and that could lead to another compo claim.

NewsCom







> Cornelia Rau detained
> AUSTRALIAN consular officials in Jordan have met with a South Australian woman, believed to be Cornelia Rau, who was detained by local authorities on Wednesday.
> Ms Rau was wrongfully detained by Australian immigration officials four years ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## Happy (21 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> It's a crazy world.




Another example  >



> From Illawarra Mercury, 19/02/2009 9:56:00 AM
> 
> ILLAWARRA FAMILY LEFT DESTITUTE BY KILLER
> BY MICHELLE HOCTOR
> ...






Of course, miner could die in a road accident or mining accident, but he didn’t and died from hand of paranoid schizophrenic!


----------



## Julia (21 February 2009)

Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.

Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept.   Better for them and better for the community.

The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.


----------



## MrBurns (21 February 2009)

> It emerged later that 59-year-old Maguire, a paranoid schizophrenic, had been convicted of manslaughter in 1994 and served almost eight years in prison before being released in 2002.




I wish these people who are so clever and release these creeps actually were the ones who were effected


----------



## daisy (21 February 2009)

Julia said:


> Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.
> 
> Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept.   Better for them and better for the community.
> 
> The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.




Agree Julia. Deinstitutionalisation was just a cynical cost cutting exercise. Apart from the criminally insane there are so many others with psychiatric illnesses who have suffered neglect from this policy. (small town... I see them every day...some are kind of local identities)

What I have always found puzzling is the definition of criminally insane. e.g. your everyday murdering raping psychopath is, in most cases, not considered so.


----------



## Julia (21 February 2009)

daisy said:


> What I have always found puzzling is the definition of criminally insane. e.g. your everyday murdering raping psychopath is, in most cases, not considered so.



They're not considered insane because they have full awareness of right and wrong  This is a pretty good summary of the psychopathic personality:

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1885/Psychopathy-Psychopathy-criminal-law.html


----------



## traderc (22 February 2009)

chops_a_must said:


> They aren't.
> 
> There are stories here of prisoners wanting to help other prisoners to learn how to read, but are disallowed from doing so. No wonder they end up back there.




They're not in jail to better themselves; they've had that chance in the outside world before they committed the crime. They're in there to serve the time they've been sentenced to. Why should the government be providing any services to prisoners. They should be locked in cells the entire time with a food slot and a window when it comes time to get out, they get out; that simple.



> And there have been recent cases where prisoners are released without having the appropriate treatment (sex offenders) when they were having that treatment on the outside, which is a disgrace.




Sex offenders shouldn't be let out. They don't understand the word NO. Even a dog understands that simple command if you train it properly. Don't give me this crap about "they're insane, they didn't know what they were doing".

I believe all men have the capacity for rape; the difference is most know when to stop themselves or at least ask permission first.



> Most of them have jobs inside.



Most of the jobs they do hardly pay for their crimes they committed is what the previous poster was getting at. They should be worked till they collapse then be at it again the next day. Today's sentences hardly fit the severity of their crimes.



> Or you don't have a clue.



You must be one of those civil libetarian types. What if it was your child that was raped or your brother or sister murdered or a family member that was run down by a drunk idiot in a car? Sure you wouldn't think it was funny then.

Amazing how often people look at a crime and the resulting sentence and think, "pathetic, they should have gotten longer". What does that tell you? That the government, that used to be for the people is now hardly anything of the sort and the "do-gooders" that are trying to save the criminals from themselves should be taking more of a "rot in hell" type stance.

For the final year of their sentence I think they should maybe be moved to a reasonable type share accommodation like a parole system where they have to report in still but they live with some type of guardian (non-prisoner) to help get them work that they HAVE TO STAY AT and assist their reintegration into society and show them how to live a settled "human" life again; not that of the animal they used to be.

...and anyone has the capacity to become an animal. Back anyone into a corner and abuse them and they'll turn, be sure of it.

Christian


----------



## daisy (22 February 2009)

traderc said:


> .
> 
> Sex offenders shouldn't be let out. They don't understand the word NO. Even a dog understands that simple command if you train it properly. Don't give me this crap about "they're insane, they didn't know what they were doing".
> 
> Christian




Agree. 
My question about criminal insanity was in support of this statement not against it. If they are not redeemable/treatable then why let them out? 
If you forget about punishing them and just work on protecting us from them...
Calliope's 'concentration camp' suggestion seems highly practical.

Thanks for that article Julia. It explained it very well.


----------



## daisy (22 February 2009)

Apart from the sentencing of sociopaths and psychopaths, which put all of us at risk, is the other question of sentencing people who do not fit into the above category.
What is this rubbish about a judge handing down, say a fifteen year sentence, and then in the next breath substantially reducing it?
And also the one that allows offenders to serve sentences concurrently?
How insulting is that to the victims of these offenders?


----------



## nulla nulla (24 February 2009)

Hang murderers, Castrate violent sex offenders, multiple crimes multiple sentence (no concurrent sentences) throw away the key and forget all this bulldust about criminal rights. They couldn't respect the rights of others and accordingly thier rights are forfeit.


----------



## Happy (24 February 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> Hang murderers, Castrate violent sex offenders, multiple crimes multiple sentence (no concurrent sentences) throw away the key and forget all this bulldust about criminal rights. They couldn't respect the rights of others and accordingly thier rights are forfeit.





Looks like perfect start to slowly change this great country to safer place for all those who just want to live safely here.


----------



## Calliope (24 February 2009)

No mention of what the victim had to say about all this.

SMH


> Teen 'drunk for first time' raped woman, 82
> February 24, 2009 - 3:52PM
> A teenager who raped an elderly woman in a Sydney park has been jailed for at least three years.
> 
> ...


----------



## bunyip (24 February 2009)

Give crims the Singapore treatment and then see if they still think they can thumb their noses at the law.
Singapore is one of the safest countries with one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
No lenient treatment over there, no ifs buts or maybes.......you break the law, you get hit, and you get hit hard. 
We should copy their model if we're serious about drastically reducing crime in Australia.


----------



## Julia (24 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> No mention of what the victim had to say about all this.
> 
> SMH



Yet another example that the law has little to do with justice.
What a ***** coward to pick on an 82 year old woman!


----------



## Happy (25 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> Give crims the Singapore treatment and then see if they still think they can thumb their noses at the law.
> Singapore is one of the safest countries with one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
> No lenient treatment over there, no ifs buts or maybes.......you break the law, you get hit, and you get hit hard.
> We should copy their model if we're serious about drastically reducing crime in Australia.





I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?


----------



## Ageo (25 February 2009)

Happy said:


> I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?




Why because we have people here that care more about animals than humans? 

I think bunyip has hit the nail on the head, if you steal then a nice flogging, next time you steal again a finger goes (if your dumb enough to do it again) a hand goes etc..........

When you have zero tolerance towards punishment people learn quickly.


----------



## Calliope (25 February 2009)

Happy said:


> I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?




Definitely not. Our jails are not big enough. In Singapore discipline starts in the home, so fewer kids grow up to be criminals.


----------



## MrBurns (25 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> Definitely not. Our jails are not big enough. In Singapore discipline starts in the home, so fewer kids grow up to be criminals.




I would happily pay more tax to build more jails and keep the streets clean, but it's not just that is it it's the Judiciary and the "system".


----------



## Calliope (25 February 2009)

*Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told*
February 25, 2009 -







> Marcus Einfeld is not well and will slide deeper into depression if he is handed a full-time jail term for perjury, his psychiatrist has told a Sydney court.
> 
> Jonathon Phillips also raised the prospect of the former Federal Court judge becoming a suicide risk, saying at the very least he would "begin to think in a very negative" way about his life.
> 
> ...




When did all this *sentence hearing* nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.


----------



## MrBurns (25 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> *Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told*
> February 25, 2009 -
> 
> When did all this *sentence hearing* nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.




I think they all wear suspender belts and stockings under their robes.


----------



## Julia (25 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> *Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told*
> February 25, 2009 -
> 
> When did all this *sentence hearing* nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.



Yes, you'd think it was entirely straightforward, wouldn't you!
I was very surprised that his psychiatrist was dragged into it, but I guess you'll try anything to avoid jail.
Somehow it seems hugely worse that a judge should perjure himself than an 'ordinary citizen'.  And over such a stupid, small fine.  Perhaps he really was depressed to the point of insanity that he would do such a thing?


----------



## johnnyg (25 February 2009)

Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html


----------



## nulla nulla (26 February 2009)

Amazing the lengths a "pillar of society" will go to, to avoid a small fine for being less than 15 Kilometres an hour over the speed limit. Also amazing is that this circus costs will ultimately be borne by the tax payers. 
The court, having determined the guilt of this contemptable excuse for a "pillar of society" has a responsibility to hand down a monetary fine adequate to reimburse the public purse for the cost incurred and incarcerate him to give him time to reflect that he is not above the law.


----------



## dutchie (26 February 2009)

Hi johnnyg

Disgusting act.

Proposed Sentence: 15 years jail then deportation

Cheers

dutchie


----------



## MrBurns (26 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html




Looks like Nigerians, unhealthily overrepresented in crime here.

Probably get compo for getting blood on their shoes, but interesting to keep track of them.

They have a good photo of one so they should be able to round them up fairly easily.


----------



## MrBurns (26 February 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> Amazing the lengths a "pillar of society" will go to, to avoid a small fine for being less than 15 Kilometres an hour over the speed limit. Also amazing is that this circus costs will ultimately be borne by the tax payers.
> The court, having determined the guilt of this contemptable excuse for a "pillar of society" has a responsibility to hand down a monetary fine adequate to reimburse the public purse for the cost incurred and incarcerate him to give him time to reflect that he is not above the law.




He should have known better, his peers will punish him accordingly as he has brought the office into disrepute.


----------



## dutchie (26 February 2009)

Hi MrBurns

Actually, the opposite - "professionals" take care of each other.

He will probably get a "light" sentence.

Cheers

dutchie


----------



## MrBurns (26 February 2009)

dutchie said:


> Hi MrBurns
> 
> Actually, the opposite - "professionals" take care of each other.
> 
> ...




Let's wait and see, I reckon he's in for it ......big time


----------



## Calliope (26 February 2009)

dutchie said:


> Hi johnnyg
> 
> Disgusting act.
> 
> ...




These thugs obviously model themselves on Black American street culture in dress and behaviour. Did you notice the *pimp roll* style of walking.


----------



## MrBurns (26 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> These thugs obviously model themselves on Black American street culture in dress and behaviour. Did you notice the *pimp roll* style of walking.




I've noticed some young Lebanese smart arses walk that way, intimidating, until you get the baseball bat out of the car anyway.


----------



## johnnyg (26 February 2009)

dutchie said:


> Hi johnnyg
> 
> Disgusting act.
> 
> ...




Its extremely brutal, however I ponder the 15 year proposed sentence. 

From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/killers-sentenced-over-curry-bashing-20081222-73ff.html

2 years in a youth detention center. Seems fair. 

Hopefully the brutality shown on the CCTV footage might make the judge/any other judge dealing with a similar style case think twice about the sentence.

2 of my mates in separate incidents have had their head stomped on by a group of 4-6 thugs, and they got off with pissy 3 and 6 month good behavior bonds.


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html




The thing that's even more disturbing about these crooks is they were not ashamed of being filmed doing it and continued the attack even after other pedestrians passed by. 

The tall guy dwarfs the other two attackers. He appears almost the height of Manute Bol from the NBA.  

I also heard of this scam in news recently.

*MP tells of Somali passport fraud*
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/mp-tells-of-somali-passport-fraud-20090223-8frp.html


----------



## dutchie (26 February 2009)

"From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/ki...1222-73ff.html"

I don't know why they wasted time and money in having a trial.

"15 years" - that is my sentence if I was a judge.
Surely that must be attempted murder.


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Its extremely brutal, however I ponder the 15 year proposed sentence.
> 
> From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/killers-sentenced-over-curry-bashing-20081222-73ff.html
> 
> ...




Looks like the crooks are no longer afraid of the cops.
If cameras are the only retrospect for crime, then when does 
prevention come into it?  

I think it's time for the Guardian Angels to come back onto the public transport system. Let the private security deal with the fare evaders and let the guardian angels protect the public. Hey the cops in the USA didn't like them, but they can be very effective in protecting the public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels


----------



## Ageo (26 February 2009)

Now the craziest thing about this all is that if the guy was armed and shot those thugs he would probably get more punishment then what they are going to receive (if they get caught).

Sometimes its like the government wants us to break the law to defend ourselves.


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 February 2009)

Ageo said:


> Now the craziest thing about this all is that if the guy was armed and shot those thugs he would probably get more punishment then what they are going to receive (if they get caught).
> 
> Sometimes its like the government wants us to break the law to defend ourselves.




The problem is also compounded by the privatisation of The Met in Victoria.
NO station masters on most train platforms in the Melbourne Metropolitan area. Most commuters are angry when the trains are cancelled and don't run on time like what happened this summer in Melbourne. Yet Connex still turn a profit from a network built with public money. Surely these kind of attacks on commuters could be minimized if the Government and Connex did something about staffing the train platforms once again. But try to explain that to the bean-counters in Kosky's department and/or Connex. Cheaper to compensate acts of violence then ensuring a safe and reliable Public Transport system. Economic rationalism gone wrong.


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 February 2009)

This is an interesting one. I wonder what penalty the journo will receive.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25108063-5012980,00.html

A CURRENT Affair reporter Ben Fordham and his producer expect to be charged over a hidden camera investigation they say headed off a murder.

Fordham posed as an accomplice to an alleged hitman who was approached by a Sydney man to kill another man. 

The ACA report said the man wanted to kill the target because he was blackmailing a friend of his. 
The story, which relied heavily on the use of hidden cameras and microphones, aired on ACA last year. 

On ACA on Wednesday night, Fordham said he and producer Andrew Byrne expected to be charged by NSW Police at their office.


----------



## bunyip (26 February 2009)

Happy said:


> I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?




It's possible alright.
First, change the judiciary system so that judges don't get so much say in what sentence is handed out - we've all seen how incompetent and stupid some of them can be.
Maybe the jury and the victim and perhaps the victims family can be involved in deciding the sentence, afterall, it's the jury that decides the guilt or innocence of the accused. 
Increase the penalties drastically....take a leaf out of Singapore's book. 
Don't give crims early parole if they behave themselves in jail....give them increased sentences if they don't. And if they're already in there for the term of their life, and they want to play up, stick them in an isolation cell and withdraw all privileges and comforts except those that are essential for life. And not for just a few days or weeks - leave the bastards in there for six or twelve months, then stick them back in there permanently if they play up again. If they go mad, tough luck - they're probably mad anyway, and I can't see why some of these morons deserve any sort of compassion whatsoever.
Increase our police force, and not just a small increase either.
Build more jails if necessary, and make them a hell of a lot more spartan than our current jails. We found more than a billion dollars for the Asian tsunami victims, we find tens or hundreds of millions to give away every time there's a natural disaster overseas or at home. Rudd has found a staggering amount of money to splash around in response to the global economic meltdown.
The money can be found for more jails if necessary. And in the long run we'd probably need less jails, not more, as the crime rate falls.
Apart from that, crime is already costing us billions of dollars anyway - reduce it drastically and in the long run we'd save money.
I get sick of hearing excuses why we can't introduce whatever measures are necessary to get the upper hand on crime.
If we're not competent in this country to draft some effective crime-fighting policies, and implement them, then call in a team of experts from some country with a proven track record in crime control.


----------



## bunyip (26 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> This is an interesting one. I wonder what penalty the journo will receive.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25108063-5012980,00.html
> 
> ...




Ben Fordham is quite a well known face on Australian TV these days. Was he wearing a disguise when he posed as a hit mans accomplice, or do these crims watch so little TV that they'd never seen him on the screen?


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> If we're not competent in this country to draft some effective crime-fighting policies, and implement them, then call in a team of experts from some country with a proven track record in crime control.




I'm hearing you Bunyip.
Just need the message to go to the NSW Crime Commission.

Here's an interesting article

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/crime-and-banishment/1440752.aspx

*Crime and Banishment*

Respect runs deep among the Calabrians who man the stalls at Melbourne's Wholesale Fruit and Vegetable market. Even when police come calling, as in the early 1990s when market identities began turning up dead, deference is paid to those with influence.


In 1992, when homicide detectives asked the fruitshop owner Antonio Madafferi what he thought of Liborio Benvenuto, the undisputed Mafia godfather of Melbourne, he replied: "A very good man. Very honest and he was respected everywhere."


Madafferi also impressed upon the interviewing detectives that he, too, was a man of influence. "I am a man who is very respected at the market."


Bruce Billson, the Liberal MP, also thinks Madafferi is a decent chap, although his interaction with the Calabrian-born greengrocer is limited to fund-raising events. "I met him at functions. He seems a nice guy," Billson says.


----------



## MrBurns (26 February 2009)

This creep will be released among the public in under 8 years to mix with your relatives, children, everyone  - 



> Sex attacker jailed for eight years
> 
> A man who carried out a "callous and brutal" sex attack on a seven-year-old girl and her 11-year-old brother has been sentenced to eight years' jail.
> 
> ...




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/757762/sex-attacker-jailed-for-eight-years


----------



## bunyip (27 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> This creep will be released among the public in under 8 years to mix with your relatives, children, everyone  -
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/757762/sex-attacker-jailed-for-eight-years




They'd probably hang this bastard in Singapore, and everyone would agree the world is a better place without him.


----------



## MrBurns (27 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> They'd probably hang this bastard in Singapore, and everyone would agree the world is a better place without him.




I cant get over this - 



> *The court was told the girl had been so traumatised that her medical examination took place under general anaesthetic.*





I would personally put the rope around his neck and pull the trapdoor.

The system is not good enough to deal with people like this, yes the system has cost us so many millions it would float a few banks in the US but they still cant deal with a creep like this.

They will spend countless dollars housing , treating , watching then let him out, it's not good enough I think we could start a political party on this issue alone. anyone in ?


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2009)

Every time there is a state election we are given promises on improving "Law and Order".  Both sides equate the level of law and order to police numbers, although they obviously know better.

They know as well as we do that the biggest impediment to L&O is the Judiciary. This problem has arisen through a succession of Labor governments stacking the benches with bleeding heart magistrates and judges.


----------



## MrBurns (27 February 2009)

Calliope said:


> They know as well as we do that the biggest impediment to L&O is the Judiciary. This problem has arisen through a succession of Labor governments stacking the benches with bleeding heart magistrates and judges.




Knew it was the judiciary but you've enlightened us with the reason why, I think you nailed it.


----------



## GumbyLearner (27 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Knew it was the judiciary but you've enlightened us with the reason why, I think you nailed it.




Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.

Have you got anything to say about Mandy "The Gland" Vanstone?

I bet she her orders her "special" made clothes straight to the embassy in Italy from her crooked fat buddies!


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.




Well, not everything. But as all the State governments except one are Labor, and the judiciary are reluctant to jail anybody, I think it is safe to assume that they were appointed for this very reason.

The judges and magistrates are  well aware that, if they hand down custodial sentences to all offenders who deserve jail, there is no accommodation for them. Like our hospitals the jails are overcrowded and can take only the most serious cases


----------



## MrBurns (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.




Well labor *are* responsible for all things bad because they are tossers and they now have a leader who could toss for his country he's so good at it.

Libs = jobs and prosperity.

Labor= recession, unemployment and financial upheaval,

You can argue with me but you cant argue with the facts.


----------



## bunyip (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.





Nailing Labor is great sport! 

If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.

Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.


----------



## MrBurns (28 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> Nailing Labor is great sport!
> 
> If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.
> 
> Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.




ROFL


----------



## GumbyLearner (28 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> Nailing Labor is great sport!
> 
> If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.
> 
> Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.




Thats a fair call Bunyip. But Im looking for Australian Federal Police to nail the mob for the largest ecstacy bust in the world. And what better way than to nail the Liberal Party of Australia for the political campaign donations they happily collected from the godfather of the biggest drug mob than Madaferri himself. 

Glandstone overuled her own department twice to give the guy a 'visa' because of his poor 'mental condition'. While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees. Remember when JH claimed parents threw their children overboard?
Gee how can we build bigger prisons to put the little refugee kids in, by banning the Liberals for accepting cash from Mafia-Overlords and making them pay taxes.


I'm ashamed to call myself Australian, when a drug cartel can get raided and discovered with 100 millions of dollars worth of drugs, pay favour money to the Liberal Party and pay no taxes on the crap they are shoving down kids throats.

And you can include those other Liberals who all put in special words for their gangster buddy not just Glandstone. Dillson and Pain etc... 

Anyway, that's history and now Glandstone has moved onto Europe.

CUT THE CRAP!


----------



## MrBurns (28 February 2009)

Ever hear of a sentence like this here ? No it would have been 15 years with early parole.



> LA gang member jailed for actor's death
> 
> A Los Angeles gang member has been sentenced to *life in prison without chance of parole* for killing Judging Amy teen actress Tara Correa-McMullen and another victim.
> 
> ...


----------



## GumbyLearner (28 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ever hear of a sentence like this here ? No it would have been 15 years with early parole.




No but most people even "tossers" know about these ones.

"While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees."

Sentencing in Australia IS a disgrace.


----------



## MrBurns (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> No but most people even "tossers" know about these ones.
> 
> "While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees."
> 
> Sentencing in Australia IS a disgrace.




Where would YOU put the children of illegal immigrants ?

They have no family here , send them home ?


----------



## GumbyLearner (28 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Where would YOU put the children of illegal immigrants ?
> 
> They have no family here , send them home ?




Not in prison that's for sure.


----------



## bunyip (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Not in prison that's for sure.




So Gumby...in answer to Burnsy's question, where would _*you*_ put the children of illegal immigrants?

And as for 'prisons in the desert', well, you're entitled to your opinion on that, but if you visited those immigration camps in the desert, and then visited a real prison, I feel pretty sure you'd find some very significant differences. Perhaps some similarities too, but certainly some very real differences.

Anyway, where would _*you*_ put those kids while their parents are being processed through the system?


----------



## GumbyLearner (28 February 2009)

bunyip said:


> So Gumby...in answer to Burnsy's question, where would _*you*_ put the children of illegal immigrants?
> 
> And as for 'prisons in the desert', well, you're entitled to your opinion on that, but if you visited those immigration camps in the desert, and then visited a real prison, I feel pretty sure you'd find some very significant differences. Perhaps some similarities too, but certainly some very real differences.
> 
> Anyway, where would _*you*_ put those kids while their parents are being processed through the system?




In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live.


----------



## MrBurns (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live.




So you would separate them from their parents ? Compo compo !!!!!

Gee if you can find conditions like that let me know and I'll move there.

Havent seen a well funded public school since the 70's but there plenty of money to throw kero on an already over inflated housing bubble, yeah roll out the millions for that little vote grabber. I look into Rudds eyes and see nothing, scary Hitler...ish.


----------



## bunyip (28 February 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live.




You don't think they'd shoot through, or get smuggled out by relatives or family friends or sympathisers?

And is it really our responsibility to provide schooling and housing for kids who are here illegally? 
Seems to me we're hard pressed to adequately provide these facilities and services for our own citizens. I can't see that we're under any obligation to provide them to illegal immigrants, even if they're kids.


----------



## bunyip (1 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.
> 
> Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept.   Better for them and better for the community.
> 
> The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.






It certainly has, Julia.
Yet the authorities refuse to face up to that fact, continue to close down the psychiatric institutions and attempt to rehabilitate the inmates and put them back in the community. 

The story of the Yorkshire Ripper is typical of the thinking here in Australia. Some moron who is big on professional qualifications but small on common sense, decides that some horrifically violent offender like Peter Sutcliffe, (the Ripper) can function normally while he's on medication. 
And so a recommendation is made that he be released back into society. 
Such a stupid decision doesn't take into account that many of these people just don't continue taking their medication unless they're incarcerated and are under constant supervision.

I have a relative who once worked as a mental health nurse in the Acute Psychiatric Unit of a large regional hospital. She can tell countless stories of patients who were readmitted to hospital time after time because they stopped taking their medication as soon as they were released, or in some cases got on booze and illicit drugs while taking their medication, went completely off their heads, and committed further crimes.

It almost beggars belief that those who are responsible for deciding what to do with people, continue with policies and strategies that are just not working.


----------



## bunyip (2 March 2009)

Story on the midday news just now that some US states are looking at abolishing the death penalty in favour of life imprisonment. 
Apparently it's related to finances, more specifically, how the global economic crisis is stretching the budgets of US states to the extent that they can no longer afford the death penalty.
The claim is that execution costs more than life imprisonment. Very difficult to believe.

Pity we don't re-introduce the death penalty here in Australia. I can't see how it wouldn't be a lot cheaper than keeping those animals in jail for many decades.


----------



## MrBurns (2 March 2009)

bunyip said:


> Story on the midday news just now that some US states are looking at abolishing the death penalty in favour of life imprisonment.
> Apparently it's related to finances, more specifically, how the global economic crisis is stretching the budgets of US states to the extent that they can no longer afford the death penalty.
> The claim is that execution costs more than life imprisonment. Very difficult to believe.
> 
> Pity we don't re-introduce the death penalty here in Australia. I can't see how it wouldn't be a lot cheaper than keeping those animals in jail for many decades.




That cant be right doesnt cost a lot to kill someome but it does to feed them for 20 years.

Life in prison should mean life not the limp wristed perversions of justice handed out here.


----------



## MrBurns (3 March 2009)

Speechless..............



> Anger after child rapist walks free
> Posted 28 minutes ago
> Updated 21 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## pilots (3 March 2009)

Watch and see if he blames it on drugs or booze.


----------



## Happy (4 March 2009)

In another article State Attorney-General John Hatzistergos said that maximum penalty is 25 years.

And I can almost understand why some might again appeal severity of their sentences for rape.



> From ABC, 3 Mar. 09
> CHILD RAPIST WALKS FREE, DPP APPEALS
> 
> The New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) will appeal against the two-year suspended sentence given to a man who raped a four-year-old girl in the state's north.
> ...


----------



## bunyip (4 March 2009)

It seems that some judges are just not up to the responsibility of making intelligent decisions regarding what sentences are appropriate. 
What's the solution then - take the decisions out of the judges hands? 
Let the jury decide the sentence? 
Let the victim or the family of the victim decide the sentence?

Occasionally a victim or their family are the forgiving kind who say  - _"The culprit has already suffered enough, everyone makes mistakes, we forgive them, let them walk free." _
So I guess that rules out letting victims or their families decide on appropriate penalties. 
Given that juries are considered qualified to judge someone guilty or innocent, then perhaps they're also qualified to decide what sentence is imposed. Surely they can't do any worse than the judges.
It certainly appears that we have to stop relying on judges if we want to get decent justice for victims, while at the same time providing some very frightening deterrents for those who think they can break the law.


----------



## MrBurns (4 March 2009)

Judges are dictated to by the Law, they act on precedent, previous sentences.
What needs to happen is the *LAW* needs to be changed so judges are compelled to dole out more appropriate sentences.

In some cases they have that option but dont exercise it because they HAVE to take into account mitigating circumstances such as remorse, this is bull**** and should be abolished.

Double the size of the jails and throw every smart **** crim and thug and just leave them there so people can walk the streets at night again.


----------



## Julia (4 March 2009)

In addition to addressing inappropriate sentencing, and considering changes to the law, don't we have to also look at why violence is increasing exponentially?

The obvious answer is the very question we're discussing, i.e. insufficient deterrent, but this violence is extending to little kids in prep (about 4 and 5 year olds) who are attacking their classmates.   They're hardly likely to be figuring out that they can do it with impunity because there's no legal redress against such behaviour.

So why is this happening?   Have parents failed to set boundaries about behaviour?   Do kids as young as this get the violence concept from TV?

Are these kids manipulating their parents?  A psychologist I know has cut three hours off her working day so she can collect her 5 year old from prep.  She was advised that he could not remain with the after 2pm limited staffing because his aggression towards the other kids is so great that he needs to have a staff member with him every moment .
The psychologist mother says at home there are no problems with his behaviour at all.  A bit ironic when the child of a psychologist and a mental health unit director is indulging in uncontrollable behaviour.


----------



## MrBurns (4 March 2009)

Julia said:


> In addition to addressing inappropriate sentencing, and considering changes to the law, don't we have to also look at why violence is increasing exponentially?
> 
> So why is this happening?   Have parents failed to set boundaries about behaviour?   Do kids as young as this get the violence concept from TV?
> 
> .




We follow the USA, everyone wants to be a black rap crim these days.

Some take extensive martial arts courses thats why these so many deaths from fights now.

Too much grog and not enough law - 

Pubs arent allowed to serve drunks but they do it all day every day, the police do nothing.


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (4 March 2009)

I agree with the sentiment that we should be looking at root causes behind these violent crimes, but lets not bury our head in the sand here. There is an issue _now_, and the sort of social engineering required to _maybe_ fix the problems enough to reduce these types of crimes does not happen swiftly.

So what do we do with the current crop of people who haven't figured out that if you can't play nice with others, you don't get to belong on the team? Tougher sentencing is perhaps the only thing that can be done.

Quite frankly crimes against children sicken me and I'd like to see some of the US sentencing laws as they apply to crimes against children in force here. Eg In certain states in the U.S. I underdstand if you commit a sexual act against a child under the age of 10 it is MANDATORY life imprisonment. No bleeding heart Judge can lower that sentence because it is a mandatory minimum sentence enshrined in the law.

Mental health here in Australia is also a complete joke.  One of my wife's family recently changed her depression medication which triggered a psychotic break. She didn't sleep for almost ten days, was violent towards family members (we had to move the kids out for week) and she generally went round the bend. Given that she was in no condition to admit herself - her husband *was required* to call the police to forcibily remove her (in handcuffs I might add) to hospital - where they booted her out of the system in less than two weeks (far too quickly) and are treating her as an outpatient.

Where the hell are the mental health hospitals anymore?

Anyway - enough griping from me.

Sir O


----------



## nulla nulla (5 March 2009)

bunyip said:


> It certainly has, Julia.
> Yet the authorities refuse to face up to that fact, continue to close down the psychiatric institutions and attempt to rehabilitate the inmates and put them back in the community.
> 
> The story of the Yorkshire Ripper is typical of the thinking here in Australia. Some moron who is big on professional qualifications but small on common sense, decides that some horrifically violent offender like Peter Sutcliffe, (the Ripper) can function normally while he's on medication.
> ...




A current example of the "sick" persons inability to self medicate after reinstatement in the community is the woman released from the immigration cente and compensated for her wrongful internment. Can't immediately recall her name but her most recent escapade, after being evicted from Germany and banned from Turkey, was to be arrested in Jordan.


----------



## Julia (5 March 2009)

Cordelia Rau.


----------



## Happy (6 March 2009)

It did not happen in Australia, but if it did result would be identical.

We all are just sitting ducks in mercy of some crim, mental or youth.




> From ABC 6 Mar. 09
> NO JAIL FOR CANADIAN BUS BEHEADER
> 
> A mentally ill man who beheaded and then cannibalised a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus last year cannot be held responsible for his actions, and will be housed indefinitely in a secure mental institution, a Canadian court has ruled.
> ...


----------



## Happy (6 March 2009)

> From ABC  6 Mar. 09
> 
> SCHIZOPHRENIA SUFFERER NOT GUILTY OF STABBING MURDER
> By Rebecca Barrett
> ...




We’ve got one too, no beheading only murder, but same result.

Attacked person not alive, perpetrator free to kill once Mental Health Review Tribunal decides to let Moko Moko go.


----------



## GumbyLearner (6 March 2009)

*Finding justice*

http://www.theage.com.au/national/finding-justice-20090305-8q3i.html

"In the case of a young offender, there can hardly ever be any conflict between the public interest and that of the offender. The public have no greater interest than that he should become a good citizen. The difficult task of the court is to determine what treatment gives the best chance of realising that objective."English judgement from Principles of Sentencing by D. A. Thomas.

THIS morning in the Melbourne County Court, four young men will be sentenced to prison for committing callous crimes against a harmless man. A fifth co-offender, one of two teenagers, will almost certainly suffer the same punishment soon for his involvement in the now-notorious arson attack on Richard Plotkin.

Many familiar with the case are likely to complain that the sentences, whatever their length, won't be long enough.

A soft target, Plotkin, 60, was left near death and horribly scarred in the attack that destroyed his home and independence. It is this loss of the life he once enjoyed and the ability to function autonomously in his community at Rosebud that he misses most.


----------



## Happy (6 March 2009)

> FOUR JAILED FOR SETTING MAN ALIGHT
> From ABC  6 Mar. 09
> By Liz Hobday
> 
> ...




Cheap as fried chips, 5 years = 3, according to wisdom of Judge Barbara Cotterell


----------



## Happy (6 March 2009)

> VETERAN BASHED FOR 50 CENTS, ATTACKER JAILED
> From ABC  6 Mar. 09
> 
> A Sydney man has been sentenced to at least 15 months in jail for bashing an 83-year-old war veteran over 50 cents.
> ...





3 punches + 50 cents = 2 years = err actually 1 year and 3 months

Since jails have fitness equipment, in 15 months time Kristopher might be able to punch much harder.


----------



## bunyip (6 March 2009)

One of the lowest people ever to pollute Queensland with his presence, paedophile Dennis Ferguson, was today acquitted of molesting a 5 year old girl within a few weeks of his release from prison after serving a lengthy sentence for an earlier offence. Ferguson became Queensland's most loathed person when he was found guilty of abducting three siblings and holding them in a motel room for four days while he repeatedly raped them. From memory the kids were aged between three and seven years at the time.
The latest charge against him was dismissed because of inconclusive evidence.
It disgusts me that this grubby little apology for a human being was ever released from prison.....all because some idiotic person/s with more professional qualifications than common sense, thought he deserved a second chance.
Only a justice system that's downright pathetic releases a man who imprisons and rapes three little children for four days.
When Ferguson was put behind bars they should have left him there for the rest of his miserable life. Better still, cut off his head or hang him. 
Now we sit back and wait for the next poor innocent little kid to fall victim to Dennis the menace.


----------



## Julia (6 March 2009)

Bunyip, I doubt there would be a Queenslander who didn't agree with your comments.  Ferguson must be one of the most loathsome cretins to ever exist.
I completely agree that he should have never been released.

Still, re the acquittal today, I understand there was a possibility that the person he was with at the time (also a known paedophile) could have been mistaken by the child witness for Ferguson.  Therefore the public prosecutor's assertion that it was Ferguson who committed the offence could not be proven without doubt.

So we have the magical formula:   the execution of the Law which has little to do with justice.

I had the fleeting thought that perhaps the case could be brought against Ferguson's companion, but presumably the same defence would apply, that the child could not say for certain which of the two men assaulted her.

How is that child and her family feeling now, I wonder?  Going through all that only to know this apology for a human being is out there ready to do it all again.


----------



## bunyip (7 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Bunyip, I doubt there would be a Queenslander who didn't agree with your comments.  Ferguson must be one of the most loathsome cretins to ever exist.
> I completely agree that he should have never been released.
> 
> Still, re the acquittal today, I understand there was a possibility that the person he was with at the time (also a known paedophile) could have been mistaken by the child witness for Ferguson.  Therefore the public prosecutor's assertion that it was Ferguson who committed the offence could not be proven without doubt.
> ...



Yes Julia, I can see how the charge against him couldn't be proven without doubt.
So here we have a situation where two notorious paedophiles have a little five year old girl, she gets sexually assaulted, but nobody can prove which one of them assaulted her.
Ferguson and his scumbag lawyer claim it was the other bloke, and the other bloke probably claims it was Ferguson. 
It was probably both of them. So they're both released back into the public.
Neither of them should have been in a position to grab the girl in the first place. As convicted paedophiles they should have both been in jail for the term of their natural lives. Or lying in a grave somewhere with a dozen bullets in their bodies.


----------



## MrBurns (7 March 2009)

bunyip said:


> One of the lowest people ever to pollute Queensland with his presence, paedophile Dennis Ferguson, was today acquitted of molesting a 5 year old girl within a few weeks of his release from prison after serving a lengthy sentence for an earlier offence. Ferguson became Queensland's most loathed person when he was found guilty of abducting three siblings and holding them in a motel room for four days while he repeatedly raped them. From memory the kids were aged between three and seven years at the time.
> The latest charge against him was dismissed because of inconclusive evidence.
> It disgusts me that this grubby little apology for a human being was ever released from prison.....all because some idiotic person/s with more professional qualifications than common sense, thought he deserved a second chance.
> Only a justice system that's downright pathetic releases a man who imprisons and rapes three little children for four days.
> ...




It surprises me that no one has knocked him off, I'd be tempted if I ever saw him. The courts are an accessory to any crime he commits.


----------



## nulla nulla (9 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> It surprises me that no one has knocked him off, I'd be tempted if I ever saw him. The courts are an accessory to any crime he commits.




perhaps a pat on the chest with a shovel?


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (10 March 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> perhaps a pat on the chest with a shovel?




Yeah...this shovel


----------



## 2BAD4U (12 March 2009)

People from Perth would be familiar with the case of Constable Matt Butcher who was head-butted from behind and been left partially paralysed.  These gutless wonders have just been found not guilty.  About time our cops got justice and protection from this sort of crap. They are there to protect us but no one is protecting them.  Disgusting. 

Story Here


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> People from Perth would be familiar with the case of Constable Matt Butcher who was head-butted from behind and been left partially paralysed.  These gutless wonders have just been found not guilty.  About time our cops got justice and protection from this sort of crap. They are there to protect us but no one is protecting them.  Disgusting.
> 
> Story Here




I saw that story this morning what a digraceful situation, I believe he was found not guilty by a jury ?

I saw the footage on TV no way was that self defence.

I think the time for legal reform is long overdue.


----------



## metric (13 March 2009)

ive no great love for coppers or authority....but this case is a disgrace. why would a policeman put his or her life on the line, without at the least, legal backup?

they should go on strike.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,27574,25177866-2761,00.html


.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

metric said:


> ive no great love for coppers or authority....but this case is a disgrace. why would a policeman put his or her life on the line, without at the least, legal backup?
> 
> they should go on strike.
> 
> ...




I hope they do, frankly I would quit, what's the point of going out on jobs when you're not covered.


----------



## Happy (13 March 2009)

> From ABC, 13 Mar. 09
> 
> SA GOVT WINS INDEFINITE DETENTION OF RAPIST
> 
> ...




Just what community wanted for quite a while.

Almost not on subject, thought for a while if I should open another thread.


----------



## MrBurns (13 March 2009)

Happy said:


> Just what community wanted for quite a while.
> 
> Almost not on subject, thought for a while if I should open another thread.




No, right on topic, we need more of these decisions.


----------



## michelletonkin (15 April 2009)

Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem. Can anyone tell me if there's an actual lobby group or volunteer group that is taking action in some way to lobby the government/judicial organisations into changing the laws about sentencing, particularly with crimes against children? I've searched google and yahoo but can't seem to find anything. I'd be really grateful if someone with any information could reply to me at michellet2001@hotmail.com. I want to DO something!

Thanks very much
Michelle


----------



## MrBurns (15 April 2009)

michelletonkin said:


> Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem. Can anyone tell me if there's an actual lobby group or volunteer group that is taking action in some way to lobby the government/judicial organisations into changing the laws about sentencing, particularly with crimes against children? I've searched google and yahoo but can't seem to find anything. I'd be really grateful if someone with any information could reply to me at *deleted* I want to DO something!
> 
> Thanks very much
> Michelle




Shouldnt put your email address in here ..........you never know

Yeah I'd like to do something too, I dont know why the media arent onto this big time that would push it along better than anything.


----------



## Happy (15 April 2009)

michelletonkin said:


> Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem.
> ..
> Thanks very much
> Michelle




Welcome to this Forum.

Probably you could search Internet:
When I typed in crime prevention Australia one of the results was this:
http://www.crimeprevention.gov.au/
Victim support group Australia gave few too, this one is for South Australia
http://www.angelfire.com/tv/hvsg/

You could contact one or both of them to search for the one that you are interested in.

Let us know the results.


----------



## Happy (25 May 2009)

> From Nine MSN 25 May 2009
> AUSSIES WORRY ABOUT 'NON-EXISTENT' CRIME
> 
> A majority of Australians continue to believe crime is soaring when it isn't, and that courts treat offenders far too leniently when they don't.
> ...





If you massage figures anything is possible.

Couldn’t prevention then detection and conviction rate be better?

If everything is so good, why we ahve crime at all?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 May 2009)

Have any of you guys ever been inside a prison?

They are not very nice places and guaranteed to breed more criminality in inmates on release. People are bullied, assaulted and use drugs on a daily basis. Whether it is for 6 months or 6 years or 60  years it must be terrifying for first time offenders.

Just look at the US. It has more crime and more prisoners than most western democracies. 

There are more fundamental questions to be addressed about Australian society, such as alcohol, drugs, the development of a class society and the absence of any leadership from government in developing a better society.

I feel that giving longer sentences for minor offences is a knee jerk reaction.

For more serious crimes there should be set limits so that the community know that a person can be locked away for the protection of the public for a sufficient time.

gg


----------



## Julia (25 May 2009)

Recently there was an interview on Radio National with the Governor of I think Arizona who takes a very hard line on crime.   He has emptied the jails of prisoners and housed them out in the middle of the desert in tents.  (He didn't describe how he maintains security.)

Then he puts them to work, both male and female in chain gangs, doing hard labour, even if he has to get them to dig holes and fill them in again.

They get a 'brunch' of something like a sandwich, plus a hot meal at night.Nothing more.

Then he has taken all the abused animals and housed them in the air conditioned jail.  He reckons he has achieved a certain level of justice.

Maybe he has something.

And yes, gg, prisons are mostly not particularly nice places. Neither should they be.   Some of our homeless people wouldn't mind such simple accommodation, given that it's weather proof and comes with three meals a day, ablutions readily available, plus your laundry done.


----------



## Happy (26 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ...
> 
> For more serious crimes there should be *set limits *so that the community know that a person can be locked away for the protection of the public *for a sufficient time*.
> 
> gg






Repeat offenders should be locked forever in order to protect community *for a sufficient time*.

As it is now you get attitude: If I am caught I'll get max whatever.

We all know that not every crime is solved and offender caught and punished, so if somebody gets caught after 10th or 20th offence and he gets just one sentence for any one crime committed, no wander they are blaze about it.

IT IS A JOKE on us.


----------



## MrBurns (5 June 2009)

WTF ?????? the prosecutor asks for only 5 years with parole after 18 months??????????



> Watson pleads guilty to honeymoon killing
> Posted 1 hour 27 minutes ago
> Updated 58 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## happytown (5 June 2009)

that must be why they call it mans laughter

cheers


----------



## Happy (5 June 2009)

> *From post  #179*
> 
> *Mr Campbell has asked for a five-year jail term for Watson, with the possibility of parole after 18 months. *





In sarcastic terms, this might be income protection scheme.

Fellow committed crime; chances are that when out will commit crime again.
So, sooner out (in 18 months), chances are there will be repeat income sooner too.

Hope this assumption is wrong and there must be reasonable explanation.

I wander is there a standard way to contact Government and tell them opinion?


----------



## Calliope (5 June 2009)

Christina's parents came over from America to see justice done. They have been badly let down.


----------



## pilots (5 June 2009)

He can't say it was a accident, so it must be murder, and he gets five years, AUSTRALIA IS A JOKE.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Christina's parents came over from America to see justice done. They have been badly let down.




I am outraged at this judgement and sentencing.


----------



## Green08 (5 June 2009)

Capital Punishment  for the bastards

I know a woman who works with 'inmates' - perhaps her sense of reality has been warped as she would "care for them" them anyday. Free medical, medicine, accomodation, Austar, they get PAID. Taking our resources to fix their self inflicted (or ) with medical surgery over people needing real surgery. 

Australian prisons like the Bangkok Hilton instead of the Hilton, when do we start. 

I work with disabled clients and would gladly give them assistance anyday.  Yet they get a pretty rough go in comparison to 'inmates'.


----------



## gav (5 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> WTF ?????? the prosecutor asks for only 5 years with parole after 18 months??????????




Perhaps he'd been planning it for quiet some time.  He knew if he did that in his own country he'd face the chair.  So he thought 'how about a honeymoon in Australia, I can get rid of her and be a free man in less than 2yrs'....


----------



## scanspeak (5 June 2009)

From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy". 
If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable. 
Has a motive been established?


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 June 2009)

scanspeak said:


> From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy".
> If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable.
> Has a motive been established?




My experience with advanced s.c.u.b.a. diving is the one panicking is the person in distress. The buddy, as in "any" call for help does what they can. Matter of fact complete strangers over-turn cars to get people free of danger.

Do you not see through this person?


----------



## scanspeak (5 June 2009)

I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.

What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 June 2009)

scanspeak said:


> I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
> I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.
> 
> What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one




What motivates any killing? Power, money, anger and pure enjoyment of doing it. Psychological assessment won`t show anything because his script is well prepared. Truth is via agreement.


----------



## scanspeak (5 June 2009)

It just doesnt make any sense, they were on their honeymoon.
As far as I can see, there's not enough evidence for a full murder conviction..


----------



## Julia (5 June 2009)

Happy said:


> I wander is there a standard way to contact Government and tell them opinion?



Yes.  Just contact Justice Department.



pilots said:


> He can't say it was a accident, so it must be murder, and he gets five years, AUSTRALIA IS A JOKE.



I'd guess that he did a deal before agreeing to come back to Australia, i.e. he'd plead guilty to manslaughter but not murder.  As far as Australia is concerned, this wraps the case up.  Tick that one off.  Next please.
Justice for the girl is not really a consideration it seems.



scanspeak said:


> I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
> I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.
> 
> What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one



There have been reports of his having discussions with the insurance company prior to coming out here.   It hasn't been made clear whether he increased the life insurance on his wife.
You'd think the prosecution was unable to prove such a motive, or they'd not have agreed to the manslaughter plea.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 June 2009)

scanspeak said:


> It just doesnt make any sense, they were on their honeymoon.
> As far as I can see, *there's not enough evidence* for a full murder conviction..




Perfect. Why was an accident never a certainty?


----------



## MrBurns (6 June 2009)

From the ABC web site, Justice Australian style.




> Attorney-General considers scuba sentence appeal
> Posted 3 hours 5 minutes ago
> Updated 2 hours 32 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

scanspeak said:


> From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy".
> If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable.
> Has a motive been established?




It is plausible the man plead guilty to manslaughter after discussions with legal representatives. He was trialled and presumed guilty by the media and public at large very early in the piece. This may not have given him or his legal team much heart in proving innocence.

He may have weighed up the pros and cons of trial and figured the costs of defending himself during a long trial would ruin him financially and decided 1 year of incarceration would mean he can still keep his house, car whatever. 1 year and he could start to rebuild his life.

Now, people make poor judgement calls all the time; often in extreme situations. Nobody knows how they will react in scenarios. You can plan for it. A vast majority of motorcyclists wound not be dead if they had control of their reactions to an unexpected scenario. Many of them have had specific training.

To claim a PADI rescue course is the only prerequisite to give one sound mind and judgement to rescue those in precarious situations is lunacy. The course is nothing more than the basic level search tactic, bringing up an unconcious diver from no more than 18 metres of water (generally 12 metres) with emphasis on slow ascent to not impose self injury.

The Padi manual also emphasises a panicked diver should be avoided at all costs, to kick them away and not attempt to help them if you can not safely get near the panicked one without endangering yourself. 

Now this man had his mask kicked off in the incident. To be a rescue diver you need a minimum 20 dives. Any real training on such a situation doesn't happen until the Dive Master rating and then the task loading in minimal and in a safe controlled envioroment like the deep end of a swimming pool.

Has it ever occured to the media and community at large that this guy simply may have royally screwed up on that dive and as a consequence lost his life partner. Could it be that he is now going to have to play out that dive over and over again for the rest of his life knowing he made a really bad judgement call. Maybe he feels he needs to be found guilty of something to revieve the burden of ultimate loss through poor judgement? Qld police prosecution couldn't prove beyond all reasonable doubt premeditation or there is no way they would have entered negotiations.


This post is no more than just heresay and imagination, like most other reports, but it is certainly plausible. To admit guilt does not nessesarily mean guilty. Judge Judy is wrong!!

Walk a mile in a man's shoes........


cheers,


----------



## MrBurns (9 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> It is plausible the man plead guilty to manslaughter after discussions with legal representatives. He was trialled and presumed guilty by the media and public at large very early in the piece. This may not have given him or his legal team much heart in proving innocence.
> 
> He may have weighed up the pros and cons of trial and figured the costs of defending himself during a long trial would ruin him financially and decided 1 year of incarceration would mean he can still keep his house, car whatever. 1 year and he could start to rebuild his life.
> 
> ...




He must have screwed up big time to be charged with anything, if it was plainly an accident it would have been obvious I imagine, there must have been a lot to go on to charge him in the first place.


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> He must have screwed up big time to be charged with anything,



He was found guity of being derelict in his duty as a dive buddy. His apparent crime was to do the wrong thing by heading to the surface for help.



> if it was plainly an accident it would have been obvious I imagine,



Who says there was an accident? If there was one, why and how would it be obvious? There was certainly an incident or a turn of events that led to a woman's death underwater. The events aren't clear and probably will never be known.



> there must have been a lot to go on to charge him in the first place.




Clearly there wasn't or there would not been a plea bargin. No conclusive evidence was found. One could argue he was not derelict in his duty and simply followed the Padi handbook and sought immediate help from the closest dive co ordinator who just happened to be on the surface.

He claimed his mask had been dislodged and therefore was effectively blind. Add that to the already heavy burden of having a destressed buddy and the task loading climbs dramatically. The surface may have been his best option under the conditions.
People react strangely underwater, that's why there are so many fatalities inside shipwrecks and caves. Panic sets in and normally rational people lose it at the slightest hurdle.





This whole thing is quite a mystery the more one thinks about it.


The facts:
Woman found dead face down on the ocean floor. There is photo evidence of this. Weight belt and BCD still on.
Air in the tank at a standard mix, gauges were working as was the regulator stages.
New divers generally head to the surface when panic sets in. They are also generally underweighted therefore the tendancy is to float as the tank empties during the dive. 
Photo evidence also shows visability to be quite good on the dive. That sandy bottom is in thirty metres of water. 

Assumptions:

Mike Ball, the dive operator's ships are large and one would assume plenty of divers in the drink at the time of the incident.
Visability was good. 
The dive site is just the wreck on a sandy featureless bottom. People dive around the wreck only. Generally in big groups some go clockwise and others go anticlockwise from the stern.
Experienced divers will start deep and then spiral up to the top of the wreck in about 15 metres of water. The top of the wreck is the port side as she is sitting on her starboard side.
Inexperienced divers go along the top of the wreck (port side) so they are hanging out in 15 metres.
2 minutes as a general rule, is the time we can survive without air. without air.

Questions:

For this man to have committed murder, he needed to do a few things. 
1. He needed to deny the girl air for a set period of time. 2. He needed to restrain her whilst she drowned without causing bruising and without both he and she floating to the surface (a common scenario) or sinking to the bottom, and do this without anyone noticing. How did he acheive this? 
To accomplish good bouyancy whist restraining an unwilling diver is no mean feat and would need an experienced diver with really good bouyancy IMO. If she wasn't being restrained whilst being murdered, one would suggest she would bolt to the surface.

Did she over breath the regulator? There are a lot of thermoclines (layers of differing water temperature) around the Yongala and some are cold enough to bring on migraines during a dive for some. Much like the pain one feels sometimes eating really cold ice cream. Overbreathing the reg happens when a panicked diver trys to suck too much air too quickly than the regulator was designed to offer. Cheap rental gear is often the worst. You need to try hard to overbreath even basic regs these days, but it can be done.


There are a lot more points that need to be thought through on this.


Is he guilty?


----------



## MrBurns (9 June 2009)

I dont think you can charge someone for not being a "good dive buddy" BUT if she got into trouble and he deliberately didnt help her when he could have thats different and could be seen as murder by inaction, and did he assist in her getting into trouble ?, if you're a diver you'd know how very easily you could drown a novice by panicking them.


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> if you're a diver you'd know how very easily you could drown a novice by panicking them.





Yes I am and no I don't understand how a novice diver could be easily drowned by panicking them. I have no such idea or even an inkling of how that could happen.
To do that the regulator must fall out or the mouth and can not be regathered, the occy or backup reg must not be in position, the diver must be grossly overweighted to not float (generally speaking).

Panicked divers shoot to the surface as part of the four F responses (fight, fright, flight and making love). 

A CESA from 15 metres for a panicked diver is a doddle and a natural response. 30 metres in a panicked situation is very simple.


----------



## MrBurns (9 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> A CESA from 15 metres for a panicked diver is a doddle and a natural response. 30 metres in a panicked situation is very simple.




Not if they get a lung full of water surely.


----------



## happytown (9 June 2009)

what is mens rea

what is actus reus

what are the elements of murder

what are the elements of manslaughter

what is the burden of proof and who bears it

what defences (if any) are available

what tests are applied (subjective, objective)

my learned friends

cheers


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

Yes, surely. Thousands of case studies and incident reports by both D.A.N. and D.E.S. can't be wrong.

The gasping or breathing response is not caused by the need for oxygen but rather from the build up of carbon dioxide.
When people breath compressed air somewhere in the water column and then start ascent, the air will naturally expand causing the expulsion of gases in the lungs to maintain equlibrium. The ascent continues as the expansion of the gases inside the bouyancy device takes place. It it very difficult for a diver to remove all air from a BCD and nigh impossible for a novice diver to do it. Often this is another factor in why novice divers float whether they want to or not. They are generally reffer to as "floaters" in the wider diving community.


----------



## MrBurns (9 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Yes, surely. Thousands of case studies and accident reports by both D.A.N. and D.E.S. can't be wrong.




Well if thats the case perhaps he is guilty of more then just neglecting his duty as a dive buddy, you have to wonder why someone would murder their spouse on their honeymoon though, was there a motive ?


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

happytown said:


> what is mens rea
> 
> what is actus reus
> 
> ...




I'm far from learned in the concepts of law, but a guilty mind (?) in this case would be very dificult to prove, no?

Sure, there was talk of increased insurance policy before the honeymoon to a foriegn location. Who wouldn't consider more life insurance after gaining a spouse and posible soon to forthcoming offspring?


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Well if thats the case perhaps he is guilty of more then just neglecting his duty as a dive buddy, you have to wonder why someone would murder their spouse on their honeymoon though, was there a motive ?





Where is one scrap of evidence that points to murder or even negligence as a dive buddy for that matter?

As noted earlier, he shot to the surface to sound an alarm, quite possibly as per PADI standards to the letter.


----------



## happytown (9 June 2009)

not far off stan101

mens rea is the mental element in an offence

eg *intent* to cause grievous bodily harm

actus reus is the act itself, the physical element

eg intent to *cause grievous bodily harm* 

murder requires mens rea

in nsw for eg (recognising the discussed incident occured in qld) to attract a prosecution for *murder* (s 18(1)(a)) the *prosecution* would have to be of the opinion that they can *prove* (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the defendant

intended to unlawfully kill the victim and did in fact unlawfully kill the victim;
intended to cause greivous bodily harm to the victim and this unlawfully killed the victim; or
under the felony murder rule, commit an offence that attracts a 20-year sentence and during the commission of said offence someone is unlawfully killed

in the above i refer to *unlawful killing* to distinguish it from eg killing in self defence (whereupon the burden of proof switches to the defendant who must prove self defence (involving a subjective and objective test - ie subjectively insofar as the defendant feared for their life and objectively insofar as the action taken by the defendant in self defence was that which a reasonable person would undertake)) which is *lawful killing*

*manslaughter* (s 18(1)(b)) is basically any *unlawful killing* that is not murder and can include such things as provocation and negligence etc

as to beyond a reasonable doubt, the simplest way to broach this is

do you have a doubt (if no, it is beyond reasonable doubt, if yes ...)
is it reasonable to have that doubt

manslaughter is always an alternative verdict available in a murder trial

note well the above information is correct to the best of my knowledge insofar as the criminal law in nsw as at 3 years ago (when i had to sit through 2 semesters of it)

cheers


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

Thanks, Happytown. Very insightful.

In the text it mentioned negligence causing death could be contituted as manslaughter. How is negligence measured? Bear with me and I'll try to explain the best I can, what I mean.

A man is standing on a train track and a train is fast approaching from behind that clearly will not stop and will surely hit the man if he does not move. A second man is close enough to make his way to the man on the tracks and move them both to safety before the train can injure them.

The second man does not offer assistance due to shock or fear or some primal response. The first man is hit by the train and dies.

Could, in your opinion based on your knowledge of law, the second man be tried due to his inactions?
Is there any difference to being "frozen" by fear and not assisting someone and simply refusing to assist? How are the two types of inactivity differentiated?


Cheers,


----------



## happytown (9 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> In the text it mentioned negligence causing death could be contituted as manslaughter. How is negligence measured? Bear with me and I'll try to explain the best I can, what I mean.
> 
> A man is standing on a train track and a train is fast approaching from behind that clearly will not stop and will surely hit the man if he does not move. A second man is close enough to make his way to the man on the tracks and move them both to safety before the train can injure them.
> 
> ...




stan101

re negligent manslaughter by ommission (specifically by ommission, there is a separate negligent manslaughter - i had to go back and re-read textbooks on this - ugghhhhhhh, upon doing this i realise i should have given a better explanation of manslaughter generally, some other time)

i guess it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the person in your fact scenario could be tried, however it would need a teasing out of the facts as they currently stand (in your scenario) to determine whether or not a conviction would be likely or not

the test for negligent manslaughter by ommission

(the second person in your scenario) must be under a legally recognised duty to act; and
(the second person in your scenario) must have failed to act/fulfil the duty in a way that constitutes a high degree of negligence (ie it must be a gross departure from the standard of care expected of a reasonable person (objective test) in the same position as the second person was in); and
the ommission resulted in the death (of the first person in your scenario)

some examples of a legally recognised duty to act include (but are not limited to):

child/parent relationship;
voluntary assumption of care for helplesss persons;
where a person has created a situation of danger by dealing with dangerous things or doing dangerous acts

note negligent manslaughter by ommission does not require mens rea

unless there was a legally recognisable duty to act it is irrelevant whether the second person in your scenario was too afraid or refused to assist

note, discussed here is a legally recognisable duty to act, not a moral duty to act

if there was a legally recognisable duty to act then there would be much argument as to whether the second person's fear or refusal constitutes a high degree of negligence (as discussed above)

i have not read the judgment in this case and can't therefore comment on the trial judge's findings (and not all reporters understand legal reasoning)

cheers


----------



## Happy (9 June 2009)

Fantastic, so many places to make interpretation, so many possibilities for loopholes, so much money to be made.

What it is lacking is old-fashioned common sense.


----------



## Stan 101 (9 June 2009)

HappyTown, 

Thanks again for taking the time to explain that so well.


Cheers,


----------



## scanspeak (9 June 2009)

Great to see some balanced and knowledgeable opinions here, rather than the tabloid reactions of late.


----------



## Sunder (10 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Where is one scrap of evidence that points to murder or even negligence as a dive buddy for that matter?
> 
> As noted earlier, he shot to the surface to sound an alarm, quite possibly as per PADI standards to the letter.




It's all allegations at the moment, but apparently she had a US$160,000 life insurance policy - which he tried to raise just before they left for their honeymoon.

Edit: What also bothers me about this case, is that between two divers, they should have four regulators. How many failed? 

15m is also not enough to cause lethal decompression issues... The guy was a rescue diver, which is kind of like having your doctorate, compared to having a diploma for just a regular PADI certified diver. Shouldn't he have known this?


----------



## MrBurns (10 June 2009)

Sunder said:


> It's all allegations at the moment, but apparently she had a US$160,000 life insurance policy - which he tried to raise just before they left for their honeymoon.
> 
> Edit: What also bothers me about this case, is that between two divers, they should have four regulators. How many failed?
> 
> 15m is also not enough to cause lethal decompression issues... The guy was a rescue diver, which is kind of like having your doctorate, compared to having a diploma for just a regular PADI certified diver. Shouldn't he have known this?




The above leads me to think he is guilty and as usual the AU courts are just pussies. Hope the Yanks pull them into line.


----------



## Happy (10 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The above leads me to think he is guilty and as usual the AU courts are just pussies. Hope the Yanks pull them into line.




+1 !


----------



## happytown (10 June 2009)

are you looking for something to do this winter!!!! 

something exciting !!!

something inexpensive!!!!

something educational!!!!

are you sick of criticising something you don't understand !!!!
 
then make your way down to your local district or supreme court, where you can have a front row seat in the criminal trial of your choice

where you get to see the legal system in action, first hand

cheer on as the hanging judge measures up the noose!!!

who knows you may even learn something

the public are allowed to watch almost (a miniscule fraction of very particular trials will for specified times be 'closed to the public') all of a trial from start to finish, entry free

cheers


----------



## Aargh! (10 June 2009)

I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

She offers leniency to Aboriginals and has said "The gross over-representation of indigenous people in our prisons and detention centres is unacceptable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bradley_(Judge) ). This mentality has skewed her sentencing. 

If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!


----------



## MrBurns (10 June 2009)

Aargh! said:


> I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.
> 
> Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?
> 
> ...




Agreed, and throw a lot more of her learned bewigged fools of colleagues out with her and the sooner the better.


----------



## Timmy (10 June 2009)

Aargh! said:


> I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.
> 
> Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?
> 
> ...




She said the 10 year-old probably agreed?  What a disgrace.


----------



## Aargh! (10 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> She said the 10 year-old probably agreed?  What a disgrace.




Sure did! "I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you. "
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22897644-661,00.html

There are dozens of other cases where Sarah Bradley has give sentences that have infuriated me.


----------



## happytown (10 June 2009)

Aargh! said:


> I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a *10 year old girl* in Aurukun.
> 
> Sarah Bradley stated that the *nine year old girl* "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?




lawyer: your honour, the prosecution can't even get the facts as to the young girl in question's age right. i contend this brings into question the other "facts" (cough! cough!) as alleged

judge (to prosecutor): well

prosecutor (fumbling around, dropping papers): ummm darrrhh hmmmm

lawyer: your honour the defence moves for immediate dismissal on all charges

judge: [insert wikipedia quotes here] case dismissed, will you be seeking costs

lawyer: indeedalee doodalee neighbourino

judge: awseome

lawyer: cheque please

[the preceding bears no resemblance to any actual court proceedings in australia, involving persons either living or dead, no reproduction without express permission]



> If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!



the judiciary, in their bag of criminal sanctions, have more than just incarceration to call upon when dealing with criminals

a strength of our legal system (here, the criminal legal system) is the capacity to appeal (on points of law and the sentence handed down) to courts further up the legal hierarchy

cheers


----------



## TCB (10 June 2009)

Aargh! said:


> I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.
> 
> Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?
> 
> ...




Well pointed out Aargh but there were 6 teenagers and three adults with the oldest of the adults being 26 years of age. This Judge like a majority is out of touch and out of control. Yes she still works in the same job and still presides in Cairns which takes in all of Cape York. And yes she is still handing out the feather duster for punishment.

As reported on 10/12/2007
"_Judge Bradley said Woolla was the oldest and should have known a lot better. 

"You cannot have sex with anyone under 16," she said. 

"However, as I said before, I am not treating anyone any differently in terms of being a ringleader, and in your case, again, I will impose a sentence of imprisonment but it will be wholly suspended so you do not go to jail today. 

"But if you get into more trouble in the next year, you could end up in jail." 

Woolla had been arrested on August 7, 2006, and the judge said the 14 days he spent in custody awaiting his sentence was to count as "imprisonment already served". 

When sentencing the juveniles, Justice Bradley said: "All of you have pleaded guilty to having sex with a 10-year-old girl and (one of the juveniles) has pleaded guilty to having sex with another young girl as well. 

"All of you have to understand that you cannot have sex with a girl under 16. 

"If you do, you are breaking the law, and if you are found out, then you will be brought to court and could end up in jail. 

"I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you. 

"But you were taking advantage of a 10-year-old girl and she needs to be protected, and the girls generally in this community need to be protected. 

"This is a very serious matter. 

"It is a very shameful matter and I hope that all of you realise that you must not have sex with young girls. 

"Anyone under 16 is too young. 

"Some of you are still children yourselves. 

"Others of you are adults but I am treating you all equally in terms of the behaviour. 

"I am not treating any of you as the ringleader or anything like that." 

She asked each prisoner to stand up and said she hoped they would realise it was wrong to have sex with young girls. 

Justice Bradley then offered them probation and when each agreed to accept that, she said she would not record a conviction. 

To one of the juveniles, she said: "You are still a child. You have pleaded guilty to one offence of rape. 

"You have been in a lot of trouble in the past, though, and you still have some community service to do. 

"You have not been doing that well. I am prepared to offer you probation but you have got to stick with the rules of probation." 

The juvenile agreed and was then placed on 12 months' probation, with no conviction recorded. "_


----------



## Calliope (3 July 2009)

http://www.thepunch.com.au/



> *The evil men do and the courts that ignore it.*
> 
> One of the first of the sadly limited number of court cases arising from the death of Dianne Brimble on a Pacific Sky cruise came to an end this week.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (3 July 2009)

I heard on the radio that he (or one of them) received a suspended sentence.
They were a particularly disgusting group of parasites.


----------



## MrBurns (4 July 2009)

I think there's a very real case for forming a Star Chamber here - 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/

Count me in.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think there's a very real case for forming a Star Chamber here -
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/
> 
> Count me in.




Be careful Burnsie.

Star Chambers are yer Iran and Laden ways of dispening justice.

The judge in this case may have decided that the whole community was so stuffed that a message needed to be sent , via her closing remarks.

It is possible that behind the court , as the sentence was being read, another child was being molested by an elder.

One of my girlfriends is a judge, I won't say where, and on the pillow she worries about each and every judgement she makes. She is a good person and like this judge in Cairns has to adjudicate over many bizarre manifestations of human behaviour and culture.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Be careful Burnsie.
> 
> Star Chambers are yer Iran and Laden ways of dispening justice.
> 
> gg




No they're just barbarians, nothing just about anything they do. 
Star Chamber 09' would just clear the streets of scum because the courts are impotent.


----------



## Calliope (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my girlfriends is a judge, I won't say where, and on the pillow she worries about each and every judgement she makes.
> gg




Does this judge of yours know that you are driving an unregistered vehicle?


----------



## Happy (10 July 2009)

> From abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/10/
> 
> SIEGE MAN KNOWN TO POLICE
> 
> ...





It is all well in reactive approach to crime, but isn’t it time to be more proactive and have known to police or known former criminals under better control? 

Or maybe even excluded from community altogether until completely reformed?


----------



## trainspotter (17 July 2009)

As some of you are aware I own a pearl farm. I also have a shop that sells my pearls once they have been created into fine jewellery. I asked the sales staff to perform a stock take on the 2nd of July. Whilst going about their duties one of the cabinets was left open. In walks a very shifty looking criminal type who swipes a $2000 ring out of the cabinet whilst staff are looking the other way. THREE CCTV cameras watch his every move. Police are called. Video evidence handed over. They pick up the lowlife scumbag who swiped my piece of jewellery within 48 hours because "He was known to them". Goes to court and the learned judge gives this bottom dwelling felcher a 3 month good behaviour bond. He is also ordered to pay restitution of $10 a fortnight. This will only take him 7 years and 7 months to pay me back. Heres the kicker. He only has to make 2 payments and then plead financial hardship and payments are suspended indefinitely. It is then up to me to go to the Clerk of Courts and pay $80 to get the bailiff to go and follow him up for my money. What happened to the ring you may ask? Never to be seen again. GREAT STUFF. Oh yeah .... the staff member that left the cabinet open has just informed me she is going on holidays to Italy for a month. Pffffffffffffttttttttt !!! Justice for all !


----------



## Ageo (17 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> As some of you are aware I own a pearl farm. I also have a shop that sells my pearls once they have been created into fine jewellery. I asked the sales staff to perform a stock take on the 2nd of July. Whilst going about their duties one of the cabinets was left open. In walks a very shifty looking criminal type who swipes a $2000 ring out of the cabinet whilst staff are looking the other way. THREE CCTV cameras watch his every move. Police are called. Video evidence handed over. They pick up the lowlife scumbag who swiped my piece of jewellery within 48 hours because "He was known to them". Goes to court and the learned judge gives this bottom dwelling felcher a 3 month good behaviour bond. He is also ordered to pay restitution of $10 a fortnight. This will only take him 7 years and 7 months to pay me back. Heres the kicker. He only has to make 2 payments and then plead financial hardship and payments are suspended indefinitely. It is then up to me to go to the Clerk of Courts and pay $80 to get the bailiff to go and follow him up for my money. What happened to the ring you may ask? Never to be seen again. GREAT STUFF. Oh yeah .... the staff member that left the cabinet open has just informed me she is going on holidays to Italy for a month. Pffffffffffffttttttttt !!! Justice for all !





Trainspotter, unfortunately in our game (jewellery, gold etc..) the only form of justice is your own. Ill leave it at that


----------



## trainspotter (17 July 2009)

Plan B is already underway Ageo *wink wink*


----------



## nunthewiser (17 July 2009)

Mmmmmmmmm 

sounds like an insider setup job to me trainspotter 


happy to investigate and get to the bottom of this problem for a mere 5 k 

can start monday

oh and full board and alcohol is expected so stock up


----------



## Calliope (17 July 2009)

A corrupt Qld politician is convicted as guilty on 36 charges of corruptly receiving $360,000. The maximum sentence is seven years, although apparently this is the sentence for each charge.

Today the Judge, Patsy Wolfe sentenced him to seven years. She said he had mitigating circumstance. He hadn't been caught before. He and his family were suffering from humiliation. He was cooperative with the police, etc.

He also put on a display of crocodile tears during the trial, but that didn't fool the jury who returned the guilty verdict in two hours.  

The punchline is... he will be out in two and a half years for good behaviour.


----------



## Ageo (17 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Plan B is already underway Ageo *wink wink*




Make sure you use cigar cutters as they work wonders


----------



## MrBurns (20 July 2009)

It's about time someone stood up and said the bleeding obvious - these Judges are in fairy land........




> Jail urged over violent child attack
> Posted 10 minutes ago
> 
> Map: Adelaide 5000
> ...


----------



## veni_vedi_vici (20 July 2009)

Happy said:


> I have many questions:
> 
> Why barristers take cases, know that offenders did the crime and use loopholes to get accused of the hook, don’t they have conscience?




It's called the cab rank rule, a barrister cannot refuse to take a case unless their are special circumstances.


----------



## veni_vedi_vici (20 July 2009)

Mr Burns,

Do something proactive, become a judge then you can clean the streets up as you see fit.


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 July 2009)

I wonder what principles were used in the sentencing of these individuals.

Her worship has certainly used some very descriptive adjectives to describe this senseless attack and robbery.

I hope the DPP will be appealing this one.



http://www.theage.com.au/national/assault-by-former-refugees-savage-20090728-e09w.html

Mohamed was jailed for 22 months with a minimum of 13 months, which included three months for breaching an earlier suspended sentence.

Mentel was jailed for 18 months with a minimum of nine months and Kiir for 17 months with a minimum of seven months, with all three terms to be served less time served on remand since February.


----------



## MrBurns (29 July 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I wonder what principles were used in the sentencing of these individuals.
> 
> Her worship has certainly used some very descriptive adjectives to describe this senseless attack and robbery.
> 
> ...




Her worship should be sentenced to spending every night from here on on a deserted station in a bad area until she learns first hand about these matters and the maggots who did this crime should be simply shot dead.


----------



## johnnyg (29 July 2009)

> In her hour-long sentencing remarks, Ms Broughton recounted how the offenders followed the man into the station tunnel underpass before Mentel punched him.




Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. 

As the title of the thread, the sentences are Absolutely Disgraceful. 

To Veni -  Why would you want to become a judge for, the ones who hand down the tough sentences are hung out to dry, and then have their sentence overturned.


----------



## veni_vedi_vici (29 July 2009)

without judges and our legal system what would happen? All that this thread is doing is looking at the material facts of the case and the final sentence. If Mrburns and the other forums members who have posted were serious about discussing the issue at hand, they would surely visit sites such as www.austlii.edu.au to read full case scripts. You need to understand more than just the material facts of the case and the final sentence, you need to understand the various judges' reasonings (by reading their judgments) and so on. Sure our society isnt perfect, it never will be, and im not saying by any means thats judges are always correct but simply looking at the facts and sentence is not adequate if your going to make an informed and justifyable comment.

Just my 

V


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 July 2009)

veni_vedi_vici said:


> without judges and our legal system what would happen? All that this thread is doing is looking at the material facts of the case and the final sentence. If Mrburns and the other forums members who have posted were serious about discussing the issue at hand, they would surely visit sites such as www.austlii.edu.au to read full case scripts. You need to understand more than just the material facts of the case and the final sentence, you need to understand the various judges' reasonings (by reading their judgments) and so on. Sure our society isnt perfect, it never will be, and im not saying by any means thats judges are always correct but simply looking at the facts and sentence is not adequate if your going to make an informed and justifyable comment.
> 
> Just my
> 
> V




No doubt vvv.
Of course all facts need to be considered by judges.

The fact that:

Mohamed was jailed for 22 months with a minimum of 13 months, *which included three months for breaching an earlier suspended sentence. 
*

I wonder if the same mitigating circumstances (eg. background, tragic and violent past life in Africa) of the offender were put before the court when he was first convicted.

Is this an unreported judgement, I can't seem to find the reporting of this case on the web? You couldn't possibly point me in the right direction could you veni?


----------



## trainspotter (29 July 2009)

Starchamber is the answer.


----------



## MrBurns (29 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Starchamber is the answer.




I think I mentioned that while ago, count me in.

Just call me Dexter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_(TV_series)


----------



## trainspotter (29 July 2009)

A Starchamber of Dexters perhaps?


----------



## Happy (29 July 2009)

Our judges are bent on *rehabilitation* and *special circumstances* to reduce the sentence and possibly not have it recorded further increasing probability of offenders return to community.

As they say good intentions and what the reality is?

Our sentencing system is laughing stock of our crims, who long ago made their career choice and all they do now is use our limitations and restrictions and good will *to abuse it to the max*.

Time for wake up call?  Maybe not today.


----------



## MrBurns (31 July 2009)

Another look at justice the Australian way, there's a lot to discuss at the next meeting of the Star Chamber.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/844027/girl-terrified-of-rapist-grandfather



> *Girl 'terrified' of rapist *
> 
> An eight-year-old girl is terrified because her rapist grandfather has avoided a jail sentence for 10 months.
> 
> ...


----------



## veni_vedi_vici (31 July 2009)

Mr Burns,

There are many things I dont agree with you about (on this thread), but that last thread disgusted me. In my eyes that is the worst type of crime...I hope something 'bad' happens to that monster (I'm rather lost for words on how angry/annoyed that makes me feel).

V


----------



## MrBurns (11 August 2009)

Don't know who's worse the kiddy fiddler or the learned judge.



> pr0n maker urged others to 'snatch a child'
> 
> Posted 2 hours 26 minutes ago
> Updated 58 minutes ago
> ...


----------



## Buckeroo (11 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Don't know who's worse the kiddy fiddler or the learned judge.




Yep, can't help thinking the Justice system is ruined. And I believe it will deteriorate further.

And the reason why?....it may have something to do with emotional stupidity.

We have a justice system that's similar to the US. Simply, a sentence is given depending on the following:

  How much remorse & regret you have shown in court
  How bad your sad sack life has been
  If you are part of a minority group

So, if you grew up in a shoe box, cleaned toilets with a tooth brush for a living, emigrated from a land where everyone has purple hair and was an emotional wreak always saying sorry, you could easily beat a rap for murder.

So, until we get back to "do the crime, do the time" it will get worse. We are so emotionally charged these days, we are now moving into a situation where the victim is treated like the criminal & the criminal becomes the victim.

Welcome to the modern world

Cheers


----------



## Happy (12 August 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> ..."do the crime, do the time" ...
> 
> Cheers




Sounds fair to me, but what chance we've got with so highly educated indispensable judges?


----------



## MrBurns (19 September 2009)

What a bloody farce this whole business is - not an ounce af common sense in the whole Govt to let this happen in the first place.



> Paedophile Ferguson put up in luxury hotel
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/18/2690496.htm
> 
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 September 2009)

Since they did away with hanging there has been no drop of criminals.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (22 September 2009)

How do you like this as an example of your taxes at work - 



> Baby killer's sentence cut.
> 
> By Jason Rawlins
> 
> ...


----------



## jono_oz (22 September 2009)

Of course - we should reinstate capital punishment! Look how well that works in the USA at reducing crime and deaths by shooting......... Oh wait.. I was looking at that chart upside down! 
Of course - we should all be able to carry guns and shoot anyone who enters our property! Look how well that works in the USA.. so few people die of gun related injuries there ...... Oh wait ... that chart is upside down too 

Given the above comments - I would also like to say that I believe in 'truth' in sentencing ... when they say "Life in Prison" it should actually mean "Your whole life".
I also believe that Truck drivers who fail to pay a fine should not be put in the same prison as violent offenders, or certainly not in the same area of the prison.


----------



## MrBurns (22 September 2009)

jono_oz said:


> Of course - we should reinstate capital punishment! Look how well that works in the USA at reducing crime and deaths by shooting......... Oh wait.. I was looking at that chart upside down!
> Of course - we should all be able to carry guns and shoot anyone who enters our property! Look how well that works in the USA.. so few people die of gun related injuries there ...... Oh wait ... that chart is upside down too
> 
> Given the above comments - I would also like to say that I believe in 'truth' in sentencing ... when they say "Life in Prison" it should actually mean "Your whole life".
> I also believe that Truck drivers who fail to pay a fine should not be put in the same prison as violent offenders, or certainly not in the same area of the prison.




Shooting the bastard may not stop others from doing it but it will damn well sure stop him.


----------



## Happy (22 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Shooting the bastard may not stop others from doing it but it will damn well sure stop *him*.





And so much cheaper, and now we can recover some spares, maybe even sell them.


----------



## Putty7 (22 September 2009)

Sorry if I regurgitate things before mentioned but I am new to this thread so I will give my thoughts as I see them and let them be picked apart in the aftermath lol.

The fall of most of the great societies has come from within and this is historical fact as shown through the ages. 

Something that stands out is people having to be responsible/accountable for their actions, when they are accountable or made to be accountable things seem to run smoothly. Unfortunately our Laws have become weak with do gooders and human rights intervention, the Judges are locked away in Ivory towers out of touch with the common man, have their hands tied by the Law and can be deceived or tricked into making a decision, the Courts are booked up with long waiting lists and are inefficient, Solicitors are justifying ever minute of their day with a fee or charge for whatever they can, because lets face it they are their to make money first and foremost for their company, thats how you go up the ladder. 

The Victim whose rights have been breached comes last (because heaven forbid even criminals have rights). 

My belief is that if you knowingly do something right you will take the credit for it, doubt there are any arguements there, but if you knowingly do something wrong you should be punished and forfeit any rights you have until the matter is settled and you have accounted for your wrong.

I love Dexter and believe a dozen spread around WA would be worth their weight in gold (taxpayers gold saved), our jails are overcrowded and cost a bloody fortune, seems amusing that the innocent victims have to contribute to keep the criminals that have wronged them. Pity it wasnt like the old west and if someone was in the wrong they were given a trial and hanged the next day if guilty, might instill some fear back into criminal society hey.

I apologise if this rambles a bit and doesnt follow an exact path, was doing other things in between writing this lot down


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> What a bloody farce this whole business is - not an ounce af common sense in the whole Govt to let this happen in the first place.




Farcical indeed. 

From the absurb to the sublimely ridiculous! 

Publicly funded housing for paedophiles

*Ferguson law a 'victory for vigilantes'*

Posted September 23, 2009 10:34:00

The Australian Lawyers Alliance says a new law in New South Wales, enabling housing authorities to force paedophiles to move from public housing, is a victory for vigilantes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/23/2693978.htm?section=justin

Just make sure you keep those vigilantes away from the paedo's, the vigilantes may be able to uphold the rights/civil liberties of defenceless kids. 

Talk about twisted bull**** from this lawyers group.


----------



## MrBurns (23 September 2009)

> Publicly funded housing for paedophiles




While decent families go homeless - my blood is really starting to boil - this is just too much

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2689938.htm


----------



## Mr J (23 September 2009)

jono_oz said:


> Of course - we should all be able to carry guns and shoot anyone who enters our property! Look how well that works in the USA.. so few people die of gun related injuries there ...... Oh wait ... that chart is upside down too




I'm fairly sure that most gun deaths in the US are not caused by legally-owned firearms. It should be noted that a number of other countries have high ownership of firearms but do not suffer the same problems. Canada is one example. Don't blame gun ownership. We have strict gun rules here and gun crime is on the rise, and they're not legally-owned firearms.


----------



## MrBurns (23 September 2009)

Putty7 said:


> I love Dexter and believe a dozen spread around WA would be worth their weight in gold.




Put a few dozen in each state, I'm a Dexter fan too.


----------



## johnnyg (28 September 2009)

Anyone catch 60 Minutes last night? A reasonable segment on some very lenient sentences given to some animals for an Early Guilty Plea. This plea basically takes all evidence and witnesses/victims out of the case.

Perhaps someone has been reading your thread Mr B.


----------



## MrBurns (28 September 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Anyone catch 60 Minutes last night? A reasonable segment on some very lenient sentences given to some animals for an Early Guilty Plea. This plea basically takes all evidence and witnesses/victims out of the case.
> 
> Perhaps someone has been reading your thread Mr B.




Yes I saw it, it's a shame they just cant lock these people up indefinitely.

They will be on the street again and perhaps you will cross their path.

But who gives a toss, not the judiciary or the Govt, perhaps after they murder you or me they might get the message, I wish it was one of them that experienced it though.


----------



## Mr J (28 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Put a few dozen in each state, I'm a Dexter fan too.




You might change your mind if they go off the rails and completely give in to their urges.


----------



## MrBurns (28 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> You might change your mind if they go off the rails and completely give in to their urges.




Urges ? you mean to dispose of societies filth, bring it on !


----------



## Mr J (28 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Urges ? you mean to dispose of societies filth, bring it on !




Ah, but his urge is simply to kill. His father just encouraged him to put it do 'good' use. Dex isn't as bad as he thinks he is though.


----------



## Calliope (28 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> I'm fairly sure that most gun deaths in the US are not caused by legally-owned firearms. It should be noted that a number of other countries have high ownership of firearms but do not suffer the same problems. Canada is one example. Don't blame gun ownership. We have strict gun rules here and gun crime is on the rise, and they're not legally-owned firearms.




I agree. All John Howard's much lauded gun control laws do is ensure that the only civilians who can carry weapons are criminals.


----------



## satanoperca (2 October 2009)

That witch that starved her daughter in NSW got life.

No justice in the world, burn her at the stake and we can all feast on her.


----------



## Gillie (2 October 2009)

satanoperca said:


> That witch that starved her daughter in NSW got life.
> 
> No justice in the world, burn her at the stake and we can all feast on her.




Be a bit chewy....


----------



## Julia (2 October 2009)

Can anyone who would do this be considered sane?   A considerable proportion of the inmates in our jails are actually mentally ill.

Maybe this woman is just evil.  I just can't conceive of any remotely normal human being starving a child.


----------



## satanoperca (2 October 2009)

Julia, please do not confuse mental illness with people who just do not give a s???t. Even a mentally ill person is capable of determining whether they are doing right or wrong. They just did not care and some people are just evil.

Both the mother and father will get what they deserve. There is only one crime that you do not want to go to jail for, that is hurting children. Even the most hardened and vicious inmates have children.

They will receive the same treatment for the rest of their lives that they gave their daughter, torture.

If I had the authority I would simply starve them to death and feed what is left to the sharks.

An eye for an eye


----------



## Julia (2 October 2009)

I was suggesting mental illness as a possibility because I find the concept of anyone knowingly starving a child incomprehensible.

And I disagree that anyone with any mental illness still can distinguish right from wrong.   Some illnesses, yes, but in a psychotic state, normal reasoning is suspended.


----------



## satanoperca (2 October 2009)

Julie, I think we are on the same path, I just don't like to catagorise people, someone who has a sever mental illness may not be able to determine right from wrong but there are many people who have mental illnesses that can.

I think your earlier comment is true, they were just evil.


----------



## Happy (6 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> I agree. All John Howard's much lauded gun control laws do is ensure that *the only civilians who can carry weapons are criminals*.





Now they have to work out how to pick them up.

Metal detectrors maybe?
Automatic explosives sniffing devices?


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (6 October 2009)

Perhaps we should expand this thread beyond sentencing.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26172420-421,00.html

It does amaze me sometime the amount of stuff that gets left out of cases before they even get to trial.

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## Calliope (20 October 2009)

Mark Wilhelm in the Brimble trial has been released after the jury failed the reach a majority verdict on the manslaughter charge. I guess that means that were tied at 6 all.

No decision has been made on whether there will be a retrial.


----------



## MrBurns (20 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> Mark Wilhelm in the Brimble trial has been released after the jury failed the reach a majority verdict on the manslaughter charge. I guess that means that were tied at 6 all.
> 
> No decision has been made on whether there will be a retrial.




Maybe her friends or family will reach a verdict and sentence him.


----------



## Cam (20 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> Mark Wilhelm in the Brimble trial has been released after the jury failed the reach a majority verdict on the manslaughter charge. I guess that means that were tied at 6 all.
> 
> No decision has been made on whether there will be a retrial.




A majority is actually 10 out of 12 in a criminal trial.


----------



## Cam (20 October 2009)

satanoperca said:


> J
> 
> Both the mother and father will get what they deserve. There is only one crime that you do not want to go to jail for, that is hurting children. Even the most hardened and vicious inmates have children.
> 
> They will receive the same treatment for the rest of their lives that they gave their daughter, torture.




That will happen sure as night follows day.


----------



## Tink (20 October 2009)

satanoperca said:


> Both the mother and father will get what they deserve. There is only one crime that you do not want to go to jail for, that is hurting children. Even the most hardened and vicious inmates have children.
> 
> They will receive the same treatment for the rest of their lives that they gave their daughter, torture.






Cam said:


> That will happen sure as night follows day.




Yep -- and then they get compensation ?

*Paedophile Anthony Douglas Walter wins $93,000 compensation for prison assault*


----------



## MrBurns (20 October 2009)

Tink said:


> Yep -- and then they get compensation ?
> 
> *Paedophile Anthony Douglas Walter wins $93,000 compensation for prison assault*




This is how your tax dollars are spent, I sometimes wonder if a fair share of the forces of evil are on the wrong side of the fence.


----------



## Cam (20 October 2009)

There's no doubt something wrong with the system but you will note that part of the funds get quarantined so the victims can make a damages claim.  If they do, no court will deny them - the quarantined funds will end up with the victims most likely.

In any event, I wouldn't worry too much about him getting compensated.  Something nasty or frightening would have happend to that guy every second day inside.  The funds won't comfort him one iota.


----------



## Julia (20 October 2009)

Tink said:


> Yep -- and then they get compensation ?
> 
> *Paedophile Anthony Douglas Walter wins $93,000 compensation for prison assault*



Oh for god's sake.  I haven't read the story because somehow I've just had enough of reading about paedophiles.  Did his victim(s) get any compensation?


----------



## Tink (21 October 2009)

Yep, I thought that too Julia. What about the victims? 

He says he 'deserves' it. Unbelievable

Definitely a waste of taxpayers money Mr Burns

Well you would hope Cam, that the victims appeal. They have a year to do so.


----------



## Out Too Soon (21 October 2009)

There certainly is a lot of injustice in our justice system, this thread could go forever if we started listing examples. As someone who's been on a jury before I can say there certainly are flaws in the way we do things BUT as Winston Churchill said referring to Democracy- "It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of govt except for the others that have been tried".
 We could say the same about our justice system but does somebody have a better sytem?


----------



## MrBurns (21 October 2009)

Out Too Soon said:


> We could say the same about our justice system but does somebody have a better sytem?




I think anything approximating common sense would be the way to go, what do you reckon


----------



## Happy (21 October 2009)

Out Too Soon said:


> .... We could say the same about our justice system but does somebody have a better sytem?




Maybe some changes could be made, so convicted perpetrator has some of the privileges suspended/revoked.

Maybe there should be some automatic compensation to victims, so if convicted perpetrator has/wins some dough it can be channelled to ones that were harmed.


We have to move little bit away from: *unique snowflakes *concept and push for responsibility for actions.
And if somebody has diminished responsibility for actions, should not have access to community, simple as that!


----------



## Cam (22 October 2009)

There a number of theories of punishment.

The three that I can recall are the rehabilitative theory, the deterance theory and the desert theory.  The latter is effectively an expression of community outrage at what has been done and I feel we have lost our way a bit by abandoning it because it doesn't "do any good".  It's quite true - its hard to truly rehabilitate and its hard to deter so really giving someone a wallop with a stiff sentence is not that likely to "do any good".  But if you read the posts and everything which is written in letters to the editor on the subject, you can say that the desert theory does good because it gives us faith in a justice system which is to observation, just.  That can't be quantified but it has a value.


----------



## Happy (22 October 2009)

> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/878666/boy-11-charged-with-burglary-car-theft
> BOY, 11, CHARGED OVER 'CRIME SPREE'
> 05:30 AEST Thu Oct 22 2009 5 hours 25 minutes ago
> By ninemsn staff
> ...





This is why we have so many hardened criminals who make it life long career they just start very young and find it too easy to go this way.

Later when age allows for him to lay charges, there come out do-gooders and take childhood as an excuse and it continues. 
Legal system has permanent client and unlimited access to fees and payments and we have to live with the monster and with decisions and excuses of those who should work on how to protect us.

Just disgrace!


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 October 2009)

Another raft of inadequate sentences for yet another violent racist gang robbery.

*Man jailed over racist attack on Indian student* 

http://www.theage.com.au/national/man-jailed-over-racist-attack-on-indian-student-20091023-hcnr.html

Judge Jenkins said the assault was among a number of racist attacks that had rightly provoked international and local community outrage and should be condemned.

"Short of becoming prisoners in their own homes, there is little potential victims can do to prevent such attacks," she said.

Judge Jenkins sentenced Hussein to four-and-a-half years' jail with a minimum non-parole period of two years.

Hussein, dressed in a black suit and white shirt and supported in court by family, bit his nails throughout the hearing and stood with his hands clasped while he was sentenced to serve his time in an adult prison.

The court heard he had migrated to Australia from Somalia, aged about six, with his older brother and mother, who were both later diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

His younger sister had died from malaria shortly before the family left Africa where they spent time in a refugee camp in Kenya.

The court heard Hussein had experienced a difficult childhood and by his final year of school was drinking and taking drugs daily.

His defence had argued Hussein played only a minor role in the attack, had been drunk after consuming about 10 beers, and was remorseful.

But Judge Jenkins said despite Hussein not having hit any of the victims he had entered the store armed with the intention of hurting someone and had yelled encouragement to his friends.

She said it was "particularly shameful" that the Somali immigrant had vented his rage on international students and other young immigrants.


----------



## Calliope (24 October 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Judge Jenkins said the assault was among a number of racist attacks that had rightly provoked international and local community outrage and should be condemned.
> 
> She said it was "particularly shameful" that the Somali immigrant had vented his rage on international students and other young immigrants.




Yes. If he had attacked Australian students he would have got off scot free.


----------



## MrBurns (24 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> Yes. If he had attacked Australian students he would have got off scot free.




I agree, the system sucks AND blows.


----------



## gav (24 October 2009)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...beater-from-jail/story-e6frf7l6-1225790322801 

*'Cultural differences' saves child-beater from jail*

A KOREAN who beat his teenage sister-in-law for not doing homework or running fast enough has avoided jail thanks to cultural differences in discipline.

The Courier-Mail reports the man, 25, was before the District Court in Brisbane yesterday on seven assault charges arising out of his "misguided" efforts to help keep the girl, who was aged 12 to 13 years at the time, on the right track.

The court heard the man, who can't be named because it would identify a child victim of a violent crime, struck the girl with a metal vacuum cleaner pipe, a hard plastic pipe and a mop handle.

He also threatened to kill the girl by tying her to a boulder and throwing her into the Hinze dam.

Facts before the court also stated the man beat the girl with a metal vacuum cleaner pipe and a mop handle on occasions when she failed to do her homework properly.

The court heard the youngster suffered extensive bruising and she finally reported the assaults to a school teacher who informed police.

Judge David Searles described the offences as "horrendous" but because of the unique circumstances of the case, including cultural differences, he sentenced the man to a wholly suspended nine months' jail.

- I don't know who is worse in this case: the guy who beat a teenage girl, or the judge!  

I wonder what would happen if a male relative of the girl found out about this and belted the $hit out of this guy.  Could he claim "this is what we do to people who beat women in *my* culture"?


----------



## MrBurns (24 October 2009)

gav said:


> Judge David Searles described the offences as "horrendous" but because of the unique circumstances of the case, including cultural differences, he sentenced the man to a wholly suspended nine months' jail.




My culture says if someone doesnt protect a young girl from a beating he should be hung over a slow burning fire, I'm sure I'll be let off as it's just a cultural difference.


----------



## Happy (25 October 2009)

gav said:


> ...
> 
> 
> *'Cultural differences' saves child-beater from jail*
> ...




Are we getting conditioned to accept other cultural differences in a form of: honour killings, stoning, polygamy and child brides?


----------



## MrBurns (25 October 2009)

Actually that ruling is BS and should be challenged, we live by Australian law here not other countries laws or customs.


----------



## Cam (25 October 2009)

I agree - crack a tinny in Iran and see how far you get over there with the whole "we do it in Oz" argument.  When I'm overseas, I do it their way.  Others should reciprocate when they come here.


----------



## MrBurns (27 October 2009)

From the ABC, what a disgrace, Victor Chang's still dead and his family continue to be without him but the scumbag who killed him is set free.

The only way to get justice in this world is to dispense it yourself.



> Posted 4 hours 42 minutes ago
> Updated 2 hours 52 minutes ago
> 
> Victor Chang's murderer set for release.
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/27/2724896.htm


----------



## Happy (27 October 2009)

Almost funny, all of the sudden they realised that 18 years one day will end.

Didn't they know that 18 years ago?


----------



## MrBurns (27 October 2009)

Happy said:


> Almost funny, all of the sudden they realised that 18 years one day will end.
> 
> Didn't they know that 18 years ago?





The full sentence is 24 years, anyway they've put the thing on hold while they reconsider.
I think they should do the right thing and just put one in his ear actually.


----------



## rhen (28 October 2009)

_At a private hearing in September, the Parole Authority considered reports from psychologists, prison authorities and the Serious Offenders Review Council. The authority then recommended the release of Phillip Choon Tee Lim on November 11, when he will have served his minimum sentence of 18 years._

Should the above-mentioned be investigated as to connections with vested interests in this case?
Is it impossible that outside influences may play a role (surreptitious perhaps) in expediting release?
How transparent is the process?
Who constitute the Parole Authority, psychologists, prison authorities and the Serious Offenders Review Council?
Who reviews the reviewers?
Where's the second killer? What's his status?
etc etc etc
Lastly, who is it that "goes into bat" for us?

AUTHOR:	Charles Dickens (1812–70)
QUOTATION:	“If the law supposes that,” said Mr. Bumble,… “the law is a(n) ass””a(n) idiot.


----------



## moXJO (4 November 2009)

Shame we don't have this here


http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26301015-401,00.html


> A SAUDI court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported today.
> The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation.
> 
> The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.


----------



## nunthewiser (9 February 2010)

The "victim" is a close friend of mine living in Geraldton WA.



> Man jailed over one punch attack, glassingKate Campbell, The West Australian February 9, 2010, 11:41 am Buzz up! Send
> 
> Email
> IM
> ...




The bold is a complete lie .

The attacker asked victim for a ciggarette , victim said no. Attacker asked again , victim told him to pissorf .......... the rest is history .

LOL next april . what a joke


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## johnnyg (10 February 2010)

I don't know why judges don't impose harsher penalties for repeat offenders, or why they even bother with a 3 1/2 year sentence if with good behavior they'll be out within 16 months? It's as clear as day this guy is dangerous and will more then likely repeat a similar offense once released.

Hope your friend is getting on OK Nun, I'm sure he'll never be the same.


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## Happy (10 February 2010)

johnnyg said:


> I don't know why judges don't impose *harsher penalties for repeat offenders*,
> ...





My thought too.

Repeat offenders are recidivists and until we get the system to give harsher sentences to them we will be exposed to extra danger on our streets much longer that it would be if repeat offenders got 

Considering every crime in isolation does not give desired effect, it is simply factored into the risk of crime.
Criminal knows well that if caught there is maximum and chance of good behaviour as nobody is allowed to look back at previous crimes.

Let's move to 21st century!


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## johnnyg (21 February 2010)

> Teenager 'stabbed taxi driver in head' at Ferny Hills
> 
> * From: AAP
> * February 21, 2010 11:27AM
> ...




I wonder why attempted murder isn't the charge here? Oh that's right I forgot, you just stab someone in the head multiple times for fun, it's not like your trying to kill them or anything is it?

Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow in court. I'd say it'll probably eventuate to 12-36 months jail time with an early release for good behavior.

This is where I feel the justice system really sucks. If the Taxi Drive was killed the sentence would be harsher, however still weak, but because he wasn't, I'm sure the sentencing will be pathetic.


----------



## Calliope (21 February 2010)

johnnyg said:


> Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow in court. I'd say it'll probably eventuate to 12-36 months jail time with an early release for good behavior.




If he is brought to trial a jury will acquit him and then hang around to hug him as he leaves the court. So I suppose the Magistrate will let him off with a bond to save the expense. Compared to killing your mother it is a minor offence.


----------



## Ageo (23 February 2010)

They just keep getting better and better. 

http://www.news.com.au/national/koo...-shamed-attacker/story-e6frfkvr-1225833209499



> Man gets 18 months' jail for assault
> Out after seven months
> Faced Koori Court, felt "ashamed"
> A VIOLENT man convicted of a series of horrific assaults on a 15-year-old girl he held prisoner has been freed from jail because he is an Aborigine.
> ...


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## Mr J (23 February 2010)

These judges really live in their own little worlds.


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## johnnyg (23 February 2010)

And this.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nin...ists-sentence/comments-e6frfkwr-1225833387135


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## Julia (23 February 2010)

Two days ago an eight year old girl was taken from her bed and murdered.
At this stage, police are not saying if she was sexually assaulted.

Police are 'talking to a man' but again not yet describing him as a suspect.

I can't begin to imagine the terror of this small girl taken from what should be the safety of her own home.

When caught and charged, the perpetrator will almost certainly not receive any just sentence.  I'm philosophically against the death sentence, but in an instance like this can't help feeling there should be exceptions.
The very young and the very old (eg the 82 year old woman in Rockhampton recently who was raped and bashed in her own back yard and who subsequently died) are without defences.


----------



## Calliope (24 February 2010)

Julia said:


> When caught and charged, the perpetrator will almost certainly not receive any just sentence.




I doubt if he will even be brought to trial. Apparently he is mentally disabled.


----------



## nulla nulla (24 February 2010)

Bring back the rope. It is not only a fitting punishment for felons convicted of heinious crimes, it is a deterant to any-one else even thinking of committing a heinious crime.


----------



## phantomcamel (25 February 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> Bring back the rope. It is not only a fitting punishment for felons convicted of heinious crimes, it is a deterant to any-one else even thinking of committing a heinious crime.



 Intresting article re. Islamic Law http://www.theage.com.au/national/islamic-council-rejects-sharia-law-proposal-20091018-h2x9.html 

I pitty todays police: restricted,too busy handing out speeding fines, abused by everyone, not respected by the yout & once a crim has been brought to court, all their hard work falls to pieces when the conviction is overturned or shortened - and they are badly paid...
many of the courts decissions are unbelievable, BUT society has changed & I believe rather then being re-active by dealing with punishment, we need to go back & look at our core values. Don't get me started on family values, education, social responsibilty and so forth. It starts at the root. Todays parents are either too busy to bring up their children or can't be bothered. Instead of them playning outside & siocializing they play "Grand Theft Auto" where it is quiet aceptable to beat up women. Now you can' t tell me that this doesn't influence your future citizen..


----------



## GumbyLearner (25 February 2010)

phantomcamel said:


> It starts at the root. Todays parents are either too busy to bring up their children or can't be bothered. Instead of them playning outside & siocializing they play "Grand Theft Auto" where it is quiet aceptable to beat up women.
> [/LIST]




I agree phantomcamel. That kind of thing is pretty poisonous to both social discourse and also a distorted understanding of reality to the young who play it and the parents who couldn't give two hoots as to it's influence on young minds. I remember being ""re-educated" in undergrad at University by the marxist post-modernist black feminist critical-theorist politically correct types. About why cap-guns and playing cowboys and indians in primary school was dangerous to my upbringing and has skewed my understanding of reality. And my understanding of now in a post-modern deconstructionist world.  

Wow now that's deep!

Now I'm a blogger on ASF.  See what a bad influence that was on my development . They should have released GTA san adreas before Uni and then at least I could have elevated myself to a violent money-making pimp.  With enough tax-free cash to pay a silk to mitigate down my sentence because I learned everything in the hood, oh and on playstation/xbox. 

It's a hard-knock life for us. Yo!


----------



## Chris45 (25 February 2010)

Julia said:


> Two days ago an eight year old girl was taken from her bed and murdered. At this stage, police are not saying if she was sexually assaulted.



Interesting contrast between the media treatment of these two alleged killers. 

When the alleged 18yo killer of the 82yo woman was arrested, we saw a photofit of a dark skinned man with broad nostrils and dreadlocks and then film of him being taken into custody with his head covered but showing his dark brown chest and arms. A note on one news report said, “The accused attacker can’t be named at this stage due to the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1978 which states that premature identification of a defendant involved in sexual offence is prohibited. This law also applies to witnesses and victims. If committed to stand trial, the accused’s identity can be revealed then.”

When the accused killer of 8yo Trinity Bates was arrested, we got his full name, Allyn John Slater, and a pixilated photo. However on this morning’s Seven news they showed the *original unpixilated photo*. So, if it turns out that he is not the killer, everyone will know that he was at least a suspect and the damage will have been done.

The message this sends is that if you’re going to kill someone, make it a sexual offense and avoid the full exposure of your name and face in all the media.


----------



## Tink (25 February 2010)

The difference here is that Allyn John Slater was in Facebook so everyone had his photo as soon as his name got mentioned.


----------



## Happy (25 February 2010)

This is getting more technical and red taped by the minute.

And extrapolating how shrouded suspects are, I can only assume we did not see the end of ever improved process and all the restrictions placed on who can say show what.


Wish we could move closer to proactive citizen’s protection, so crime is prevented from happening in a first place.


----------



## Chris45 (26 February 2010)

Tink said:


> The difference here is that Allyn John Slater was in Facebook so everyone had his photo as soon as his name got mentioned.



Well, I guess he’s only got himself to blame for subscribing to Facebook and putting his photo up, but given:
1. The power and reach of today’s tabloid media and the enormous damage they can do to a person’s life and reputation in their drive for ratings, etc.
2. The ‘lynch mob’ mentality and violence that pervades today’s society,
3. The concept of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ that’s *supposed* to be the basis of our legal system,
I wonder why the identities of *all* suspects, especially in the case of heinous crimes, aren’t suppressed until *after* they’ve been found guilty.

There’s far too much ‘trial by media’ these days which only encourages the lynch mob morons. I’m all in favour of a strong justice system for the genuinely guilty, but the genuinely innocent need more protection from today’s irresponsible media and the lynch mobs.


----------



## Mr J (26 February 2010)

phantomcamel said:


> Instead of them playning outside & siocializing they play "Grand Theft Auto" where it is quiet aceptable to beat up women. Now you can' t tell me that this doesn't influence your future citizen..[/LIST]




What a bunch of nonsense. In that game it's acceptable to beat up or kill anyone, but it's just a game, and to suggest it is anything more is an insult to the vast majority of people who have ever played a violent video game.


----------



## Mr J (2 March 2010)

Not quite sentencing, but this is a story of a man being charged after defending his home against 7 teen burglars.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1019191


----------



## nunthewiser (2 March 2010)

Mr J said:


> Not quite sentencing, but this is a story of a man being charged after defending his home against 7 teen burglars.
> 
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1019191





LOL like chinese whispers these media jokers .......... Same story but with 5 burglars 

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/6872107/owner-charged-with-assault-after-break-in/

FWIW i would have done the same but would NOT have let them leave


----------



## Mr J (2 March 2010)

Don't they consider reasonable (legally justifiable) action as an action that the majority would make under the same conditions? Who here wouldn't grab the biggest stick they can find and do the same? I don't know if those cases go to juries, but it would take a sad lot to convict him.



> Same story but with 5 burglars




Don't know what is more impressive - chasing 7 away, or getting a 60% strikerate if it was 5 .

We need Texas home invasion rules. No wonder we have such high rates of burglary .


----------



## nunthewiser (5 March 2010)

> Mum warns of revenge for kids' assaultJESSICA STRUTT, The West Australian March 4, 2010, 3:20 pm Buzz up! Send
> 
> 
> A revenge attack is likely on a Mr Whippy ice-cream man charged with wounding three juveniles during a bungled home break-in, relatives of the children warned yesterday.
> ...





Better start packing that uzi.........


Shame his business also suffers


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (8 March 2010)

http://www.news.com.au/national/pla...-people-on-trial/story-e6frfkvr-1225838003521

What do we think about the comments from Mike Rann about jurors to hear details of past crimes in violent and sexual offence cases?

Sir O


----------



## newbie trader (9 March 2010)

IMO: if you live in SA do not vote for Mike Rann.

I doubt, however, that his proposed changes will pass through and be implemented...but what an ubsurd idea...as the article states there is no need for this reform whatsoever...there are already provisions within the common law to deal with such instances when previous offences can be brought forward to jurors...itll create prejudice...how can jurors be expected to think objectively if they are bombarded with such information? I know the article explains this and I am in essence just regurgitating its views (but they are views I hold). At the end of the day I think this is just a political stunt (as the article says) to paint Mike Rann as someone who is 'tough on crime'. These proposed changes are a mistake. God help us and our legal system if they are passed. What a joke SA.

N.T


----------



## GumbyLearner (9 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> IMO: if you live in SA do not vote for Mike Rann.
> 
> I doubt, however, that his proposed changes will pass through and be implemented...but what an ubsurd idea...as the article states there is no need for this reform whatsoever...there are already provisions within the common law to deal with such instances when previous offences can be brought forward to jurors...itll create prejudice...how can jurors be expected to think objectively if they are bombarded with such information? I know the article explains this and I am in essence just regurgitating its views (but they are views I hold). At the end of the day I think this is just a political stunt (as the article says) to paint Mike Rann as someone who is 'tough on crime'. These proposed changes are a mistake. God help us and our legal system if they are passed. What a joke SA.
> 
> N.T




Sounds like they are having a chop at exceptions to the similar fact evidence rule.


----------



## newbie trader (9 March 2010)

A chop is a good description...I wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of some others on this thread as I am sure there are people who are 'for' the changes, would be good to hear your views.

N.T


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (9 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> A chop is a good description...I wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of some others on this thread as I am sure there are people who are 'for' the changes, would be good to hear your views.
> 
> N.T




I think the Australian govmint aren't tough enough on serious crime.

For violent and heinous sexual offences I'd like to see a "three strikes rule".

That's three victims whose lives the criminal has shattered. After that IMO they have proven that they cannot play well with others.

If you are convicted three times for one of these offences you get locked up...for life...mandatory..set in legislation so piss weak Judges can't change the sentence and give them a slap on the wrist.

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## newbie trader (10 March 2010)

Sir O,

You do make some very valid points here, but in respect to the proposed changes in question do you think we need them? Obviously from my previous posts, I do not think we do. Our legal system already operates and has many similarities with the US, I know a few solicitors who graduated here in Australia and easily found jobs in the US (without having to undertake any further studies). Australia does however, have far less crime per capita than the US. As for a three strike 'rule' i'm sure you would find a lot of support within the community for its implementation, however, the civil libertarians would not be happy. One thing which we seem to be seeing more and more of in the news are all these frivolous law suits being brought before the court which waste the tax payers money and alienate the public - boy sues teacher for 15,000 for waking him up in class. Sure at the end of the day our legal system is not perfect, but far too often I see people making outlandish comments about things which they really have no specific knowledge on and it can be quite frustrating. Sentencing in Australia does in some cases seem far from perfect, but normally a sentence is a reflection on many things not just the crime that has been committed...many things that the news articles neglect to mention...being a judge (and I know some) is not as easy as everyone on this thread seems to think it is...most cases which make it to trial are not straight forward, you cannot have some list of crimes and corresponding sentences on it [i.e murder 50 years (just an example)]. I know I have rambled on a bit here, but i hope you can make sense of some of it :. I just wanted to bring another perspective to what is a very interesting thread.

N.T


----------



## Sir Osisofliver (10 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Sir O,
> 
> You do make some very valid points here, but in respect to the proposed changes in question do you think we need them? Obviously from my previous posts, I do not think we do. Our legal system already operates and has many similarities with the US, I know a few solicitors who graduated here in Australia and easily found jobs in the US (without having to undertake any further studies). Australia does however, have far less crime per capita than the US. As for a three strike 'rule' i'm sure you would find a lot of support within the community for its implementation, however, the civil libertarians would not be happy. One thing which we seem to be seeing more and more of in the news are all these frivolous law suits being brought before the court which waste the tax payers money and alienate the public - boy sues teacher for 15,000 for waking him up in class. Sure at the end of the day our legal system is not perfect, but far too often I see people making outlandish comments about things which they really have no specific knowledge on and it can be quite frustrating. Sentencing in Australia does in some cases seem far from perfect, but normally a sentence is a reflection on many things not just the crime that has been committed...many things that the news articles neglect to mention...being a judge (and I know some) is not as easy as everyone on this thread seems to think it is...most cases which make it to trial are not straight forward, you cannot have some list of crimes and corresponding sentences on it [i.e murder 50 years (just an example)]. I know I have rambled on a bit here, but i hope you can make sense of some of it :. I just wanted to bring another perspective to what is a very interesting thread.
> 
> N.T



Hi Newbie,

My view (and the crux of the issue with the article) is that each criminal offence is treated on an individual basis, in almost all cases without the context of past behaviour.

If you demonstrate a persistent pattern violent or predatory behaviour *regardless of extenuating circumstances* (with the possible exception of genuine mental illness), then the question needs to be asked do we want that person as part of our society?  By behaving in this manner, do we kick them out of the playground?

Then there is the way that criminals plead guilty to their crimes - and we thank them for doing so by making deals. BIG deals, which means that they are out in a fraction of the time they could potentially be incarcerated for. As if the act of *admitting to their own actions* somehow exonerates the pain of their victims.

I've seen numbers on pedophile stats and they are truly scary. The number of lives that they destroy over the period they offend is horrendous, and yet we keep letting them out of jail. It's obvious what the public thinks - just look at the levels of hatred leveled towards Ferguson.

Og well that is my rant 

Cheers

Sir O


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## michael_t_f (10 March 2010)

I agree, if they they can't learn a lesson the first or second time they need to be dealt with harshly. They obviously have a mental problem that needs sorting. This won't happen by just throwing them in the can though, they need real rehabilitation, to be retaught how to act in society, to relearn right from wrong. Jails are full of people with mental disabilities, people that were abused as kids, junkies and people that just were not brought up right. We just throw them in there with other crims so they can swap stories and learn more criminal behaviour while being surrounded by drugs and violence and then wonder why they reoffend.


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## newbie trader (10 March 2010)

Sir O,

Your last post gave me a better understanding of your position than that of the previous post. I actually do agree with you for the majority of what you said (i'm not contradicting myself ). Feel free to prove me wrong but I think I have read in serveral articles that most pedophile's dont want to/cant be rehibilitated which puts people in a tricky position (the crimes pedophile's commit in my opinion are the worst...i know there may be reasons for why they do it...but it just makes me sick none the less). But yes I should probably just concede  you are much older and wiser than I will ever be.

N.T :


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## newbie trader (10 March 2010)

Funny story (I guess it could go with Nun and Mr J's recent posts). A man recently found 3 or so people breaking into his shed at night. He quickly called 000 and told the operator what was happening. He was told that there were no units in the area and that the wait would be 30min-1hour or something. He hung up the phone and 2minutes later called back saying not to hurry that he had shot them. within 3min there were police cars coming from every direction.

N.T


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## Happy (11 March 2010)

michael_t_f said:


> I agree, if they they can't learn a lesson the first or second time *they need to be dealt with harshly*. ...




Exactly.

On a sideline I can see some benefit in sterilising violent offenders, so their genes are not passed on.

If we can breed other species to be non-aggeressive, why don't we use this technique on ourselves?


On a sideline I can see some benefit in sterilising violent offenders, so their genes are not passed on.

If we can breed other species to be non-aggressive, why don't we use this technique on ourselves?


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## newbie trader (17 March 2010)

I think this is somewhat relevant to this thread and is quite interesting...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ttorneygeneral-20100317-qfd9.html?autostart=1

it was stated during this conference/meeting that 94% of Queenslanders feel safe in their homes, I was wondering if Qlders on this forum agree with this?

N.T


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## Go Nuke (17 March 2010)

Totally agree!

When will a 20 yr sentence....ACUALLY BE A 20YR SENTENCE!
Whats with all the privilages prisoners get...like tv etc. Its not supposed to be "fun"

Eye for an eye I say.
You steal...you lose a hand for it.
You murder....you die as your punishment (that includes cruelity to animals)

Its pretty simple to me!


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## Happy (23 March 2010)

Go Nuke said:


> Totally agree!
> 
> When will a 20 yr sentence....ACUALLY BE A 20YR SENTENCE!
> Whats with all the privilages prisoners get...like tv etc. Its not supposed to be "fun"
> ...




Hope that one day there will be another referendum and people who want law and order will be in majority, but the way our society is going I don't think so.

Being criminal is no big deal, getting caught bit of a problem, but judges seem to ease the pain of waiting to reoffend again.


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1030809



> Bikeway rapist to keep reduced sentence
> 08:30 AEST Tue Mar 23 2010
> 
> 
> ...




I checked the article twice, yes this is what the article says.

Thank heavens there is no penalty of contempt of court if somebody doesn't agree with what wigs decide!


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## Chris45 (23 March 2010)

Go Nuke said:


> Whats with all the privilages prisoners get...like tv etc. Its not supposed to be "fun"



Here are two views of a cell in Darwin's Berrimah Prison complete with en suite bathroom, TV, etc. It looks more luxurious than many of the cheap hotel rooms I've stayed in in Asia ... AND you get free food! (No wonder all of those "refugees" are so desperate to get here!)

If you were down on your luck in Darwin and your choice was to either live in a cardboard box in an alley way and scrounge food from rubbish bins, or commit a crime and spend time in a cell like this, I wonder which you'd choose? And when the time came for your release, I wonder if you'd be thinking of how you could get back inside again.


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## awg (23 March 2010)

Some thugs that attacked an acquaintance of mine have recently been sentenced.

The main culprit got 9 months..for smashing a full bottle over his head causing 50 stitches, head injury and ongoing trauma.

There were aggravating circumstances, as well.

He was on a train when 3 young (adult) thugs began menacing a woman passenger.

Being that he is a 6th dan black belt, weighs 130kg, is covered with martial arts tats, scars and broken nose, has been a bouncer and bears a passing resemblance to a gorilla, he decided to intervene verbally.

He was savagely set upon for his gallantry.

Unfortunately he had been relaxing with a few after work drinks himself, and must have made some mistakes in his situational awareness.

If he had just belted them, it would have been him in jail

Its unimaginable anyone would attack him, (they had criminal records), it would be better if such badass were just shot.

At least he is likely to recieve Criminal Compensation, but that is tax dollars, those filthy scum should have money deducted out of their welfare benefit or whatever until they pay every cent or expire


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## newbie trader (23 March 2010)

AWG that is horrible, I hope your mate is ok and recovering well. Such cowards picking on women...There is nothing gained from taunting people it's just idiocy, they should just stay in their trailer parks where they belong.

N.T


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## Julia (23 March 2010)

Chris45 said:


> Here are two views of a cell in Darwin's Berrimah Prison complete with en suite bathroom, TV, etc. It looks more luxurious than many of the cheap hotel rooms I've stayed in in Asia ... AND you get free food! (No wonder all of those "refugees" are so desperate to get here!)
> 
> If you were down on your luck in Darwin and your choice was to either live in a cardboard box in an alley way and scrounge food from rubbish bins, or commit a crime and spend time in a cell like this, I wonder which you'd choose? And when the time came for your release, I wonder if you'd be thinking of how you could get back inside again.




That is hugely more comfortable (before you even consider the free meals, laundry etc thrown in) than most of our mentally ill Australians are able to enjoy in their miserable caravan parks.

Just sickening.


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## Happy (24 March 2010)

Julia said:


> That is hugely more comfortable (before you even consider the free meals, laundry etc thrown in) ...





Official excuse / explanation is that penalty ends when sentence is read.


As soon as imprisonment starts it is regarded as rehabilitation and to fully rehabilitate, person has to be treated with dignity with good values present.

Well this is theory, unfortunately crims treat it as bad luck that they have to be there and everything thrown in for them treat with contempt, most of crims have criminal behaviour in their blood it is how they live, of course there are different excuses why, but it is sickening to me too that we all are taken for a ride and we pay for it too!


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## Wysiwyg (24 March 2010)

For premeditated attacks with intent to severely injure or kill. You know, the ones that leave the victim dead or incapacitated both physically and mentally. 

Along with deprivation of liberty there must be mental suffering imposed by allowing no mentally distracting or stimulating accessories. This means no television, books, newspapers, games, radio  et cetera. To their cell they should have tapes of crying/screaming people played at low volume in the background on and off during the night.

Any obs.??


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## Happy (24 March 2010)

If I could have my say I would make them not only to wipe their own bum, but also prepare their own meals, wash their own clothes and earn their living there, yes forced labour if it needs be.

If they can do weights in gym they can carve stones, make furniture, dig garden to plant or harvest potatoes for their table as well as many other things to pay for their keep, pay cost of guards, rent of premises, water, electricity, sewage, rubbish removal and so on.


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## awg (24 March 2010)

Call me inhumane, but the simplest thing for punishment and management is solitary confinement.

there wouldnt be many comfy cells if I was the architect

The unfortunate fact is that a conservative estimate of those suffering mental illness ( including personality disorder) who are in jail is 70%.

Its an indictment of the mental health care system, to some extent.

Having said that, I am very much a believer that if one commits crime, punishment should be meted out.


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## aaronphetamine (24 March 2010)

After reading a book written by a US federal penitentiary inmate, I have to pose this question to all of you.

In a prime situation jail should be (for most inmates convicted of most crimes) a place where they learn and consider their wrong doings and more importantly recieve education and training and correctional services to mould them into productive members of society once they are released. 

Tax payers spend alot of money on the correctional services in Australia and what do we get out of it? A place where people who have committed crimes - usually - but not always, undereducated, underpriveleged people, and what do we do with them ?Put them together in a facility, let them know how much we despise them and resent them for what they have done, and on their eventual release they have learnt nothing and havent changed and they know that society will never accept them and they have no chance to change so the cycle continues.

I would prefer to see a system that really helps the majority of inmates to transform themselves in prison so when they do re emerge they are fully able to use their skills and new found worth to contribute to the society in which they always wished that they could. 

I do understand that some crimes are not worthy of that person ever being released back into society, this is mainly pointed at the lower end crimes, non violent, victimless and drug crimes.


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## Happy (24 March 2010)

aaronphetamine said:


> …..
> 
> I would prefer to see a system that really helps the majority of inmates to transform themselves in prison so when they do re emerge they are fully able to use their skills and new found worth to contribute to the society in which they *always wished *that they could.
> 
> ….





If we can work outside of the jail, surely to be prepared for life with us it would not hurt anybody to WORK inside, before they come out.


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## awg (24 March 2010)

aaronphetamine said:


> In a prime situation jail should be (for most inmates convicted of most crimes) a place where they learn and consider their wrong doings and more importantly recieve education and training and correctional services to mould them into productive members of society once they are released.




It would be very expensive and difficult to do this in prison.

As a for instance, the prison psychologists spend most of their time ensuring various prisoners are kept seperate from each other.

To employ enough professionals capable of facilitating that sort of thing would be far more expensive than public opinion would ever allow for.  (teachers, counsellors, tradespeople)

Persons with severe personality disorder are extremely intractible and labile, and they make up a very high percentage of repeat offenders.


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## newbie trader (24 March 2010)

I don't think you can necessarily win this debate, as some in prisoners dont wish to change their ways whilst others are willing (or would be willing) to transform themselves. We should not disrespect the rights of these individuals as they are after all human beings such as ourselves, but we should not make prison a 'holiday resort', rather make it uncomfortable to the extent where the prisoner says, 'hey I need to change the direction im heading because I dont want to end up in here again'.

(My comment also doesnt account for those suffering from a mental illness etc.)

N.T


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## explod (24 March 2010)

awg said:


> It would be very expensive and difficult to do this in prison.
> 
> As a for instance, the prison psychologists spend most of their time ensuring various prisoners are kept seperate from each other.
> 
> ...




As Mandella and his cohorts did in SA, they trained themselves and at the end some were even credited with degress.   I do not think we have even thought about the amazing possibilities if we really looked outside the square.  I used to ponder it a lot in my work and spoke to other professionals about such concepts including senior wardens.

Sure it would cost some at the beginning and many would not cooperate, but I venture as history has shown "Education" equals wealth in all facits.


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## Julia (24 March 2010)

I've had contact with a lot of ex prisoners when they are first released.

Their attitudes and what they have achieved whilst inside vary immensely.

Some have availed themselves of the many rehabilitative programmes that are on offer and come out equipped to make a decent go of a new life.

Others - who have been in the same jail and exposed to the same positive and negative stimuli -  say "no one does anything to help us" etc and have no image of themselves as ever becoming contributing members of society.
Their negativity will, by itself, preclude any employer taking them on.

So it really comes down to the attitude of each individual.

The mental health issue is a whole separate story.   The jails are indeed full of people with mental illnesses who a few decades ago would have been treated in psychiatric institutions.  To take a person with, say, an intellectual disability, overlay a mental illness, and then expose them to the hardline, drug addicted crims, and they haven't a hope.

None of our politicians will genuinely tackle this.  There simply are not enough votes in it.


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## newbie trader (24 March 2010)

Julia said:


> I've had contact with a lot of ex prisoners when they are first released.
> 
> Their attitudes and what they have achieved whilst inside vary immensely.
> 
> ...





Some also learn even more skills and knowledge on how to for instance conduct a bank robbery more efficiently from other prisoners as well as make new friends with whom they commit crimes with. It all comes down to, as you said, each individual offender with the prison system only having the capablities to do so much. People have been breaking the rules for thousands of years its just part of life - if the inmates want help then fine by all means give it to them but if they dont theres nothing you can do.

N.T


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## Happy (25 March 2010)

Wander when we stop treating every living person as unique snowflake and feel guilty for them that they did not achieve desired results?

Some people do not deserve to share space with us and sooner we determine who and how to remove them from our society the better.


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## newbie trader (25 March 2010)

Happy said:


> Wander when we stop treating every living person as unique snowflake and feel guilty for them that they did not achieve desired results?
> 
> Some people do not deserve to share space with us and sooner we determine who and how to remove them from our society the better.




I 'wander' how we can determine this?

N.T


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## roland (25 March 2010)

This waste of space only got 8 years for prostituting a 12 year old girl to more than 120 men:



> A TASMANIAN man who pleaded guilty to prostituting a 12-year-old girl in Hobart to more than 120 men has been sentenced to at least eight years in jail.
> 
> Gary Devine, 51, of Hobart, on Monday admitted two charges related to organising and supervising the girl's exploitation.
> 
> Supreme Court Justice Peter Evans today sentenced Devine to 10 years' jail, with a non-parole period of eight years.




Full story here: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-jailed-10-years/story-fn3dxity-1225845161584


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 March 2010)

For any posters seriously interested in crime and sentencing the books and articles of Theodore Dalrymple are a good starting point.

Enclosed is a paragraph from an article at
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_oh_to_be.html



> For the last 40 years, government policy in Britain, de facto if not always de jure, has been to render the British population virtually defenseless against criminals and criminality. Almost alone of British government policies, this one has been supremely effective: no Briton nowadays goes many hours without wondering how to avoid being victimized by a criminal intent on theft, burglary, or violence.




A valuable blog will keep you updated on his books and articles
http://blog.skepticaldoctor.com/

gg


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## Happy (26 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> I *'wander'* how we can determine this?
> 
> N.T





If there will be will there will be a way.

Like with any other limit we would have to decide what is the cut-off point?

Should somebody be allowed to live, if for example murdered more than one person or more than once?
Should mental condition be allowed as explanation to some horrendous crimes?
Should some other human traits be in or out?

Later we can adjust it and change it, like we changed from death penalty to no death penalty.


Find it hard to believe that you could not think of something?


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## newbie trader (26 March 2010)

Happy said:


> If there will be will there will be a way.
> 
> Like with any other limit we would have to decide what is the cut-off point?
> 
> ...




People are complaining about the sentencing, to do what you suggest would be completely subjective you could not enforce one strict inflexible rule(s) as it just would not work.

If you have for instance a list of 5-10 things to consider and an offender fits (for example) 2/5, who's job is it then to determine why one factor trumps another and vice versa? 

N.T


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## WaveSurfer (26 March 2010)

roland said:


> This waste of space only got 8 years for prostituting a 12 year old girl to more than 120 men:
> 
> 
> 
> Full story here: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-jailed-10-years/story-fn3dxity-1225845161584




Hang him, and hang him high!

No actually, a good ole stoning would be most appropriate. Then again, so would castration by butter knife. 

The world is just awesome, pity about some of the people in it.


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## Happy (26 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> If you have for instance a list of 5-10 things to consider and an offender fits (for example) *2/5*, who's job is it then to determine why one factor trumps another and vice versa?
> 
> N.T




Wait patiently for improvement or for *3-rd tick*

We must have some kind of cut-off point at some stage.

If we can put down some dangerous animals, surely some analogy could be applied to humans, after all we are 98% compatible with some apes, 80% with rats, and 60% with pigs if it might make it easier to accept that some human snowflakes are better not here.


----------



## newbie trader (26 March 2010)

Happy said:


> Wait patiently for improvement or for *3-rd tick*
> 
> We must have some kind of cut-off point at some stage.
> 
> If we can put down some dangerous animals, surely some analogy could be applied to humans, after all we are 98% compatible with some apes, 80% with rats, and 60% with pigs if it might make it easier to accept that some human snowflakes are better not here.




I can't really explain myself in depth without using language that would seem to somewhat contradict what ive said previous. But you make very valid points and im sure a lot of people would agree with what youve said.

Question: In your opinion (not considering any other extenuating factors), how many people would one have to kill to recieve the DP? 

N.T


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## Happy (26 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> ...
> Question: In your opinion (not considering any other extenuating factors), how many people would one have to kill to recieve the DP?
> 
> N.T





In my opinion *ONE* would be one too many, but luckily I do not get to decide about that.

Extremely violent individuals would not be allowed to reproduce either, but this is different issue again.


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## newbie trader (26 March 2010)

Happy said:


> In my opinion *ONE* would be one too many, but luckily I do not get to decide about that.
> 
> Extremely violent individuals would not be allowed to reproduce either, but this is different issue again.




Yes, luckily. Last sentence at first glance seems quite contentious but I do agree with you as it is only effects the one individual, however, civil libertarians would have a field day.

(Seems on this thread no one seems to like judges )

N.T


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## Happy (26 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Yes, luckily. Last sentence at first glance seems quite contentious but I do agree with you as it is only effects the one individual, however, civil libertarians would have a field day.
> 
> (Seems on this thread no one seems to like judges )
> 
> N.T





For some reason more and more people voice their dissatisfaction with balance between crime and the sentence.

Few times I wandered if judges are afraid for their own safety and deliberately give sentences on a lighter side so crims are not as angry as they perceive this as success and general public will only talk, so there is no danger from victims, victims’ supporters and future victims.

Compassion for criminals and reasons for their crimes dries up and I hope one day sentences will reflect this dissatisfaction.


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## gav (27 March 2010)

Happy said:


> Few times I wandered if judges are afraid for their own safety and deliberately give sentences on a lighter side so crims are not as angry as they perceive this as success and general public will only talk, so there is no danger from victims, victims’ supporters and future victims.




Have you seen "Law Abiding Citizen"?


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## newbie trader (27 March 2010)

Happy said:


> For some reason more and more people voice their dissatisfaction with balance between crime and the sentence.
> 
> Few times I wandered if judges are afraid for their own safety and deliberately give sentences on a lighter side so crims are not as angry as they perceive this as success and general public will only talk, so there is no danger from victims, victims’ supporters and future victims.
> 
> Compassion for criminals and reasons for their crimes dries up and I hope one day sentences will reflect this dissatisfaction.




I'm sure there are many people out there who have not had the best upbringing but have broken away and made something of themselves. Although in some circumstances things like this need to be taken into account when sentencing. I agree the sentencing is not really up to scratch, but there are other factors which impede the process (administrative, social, political, legal etc). Maybe its gotton to the stage where judges from lower courts believe that if they hand down a harsh sentence then that will just be over ruled by the appellate court on appeal. But in the end who else can do the work judges do? You? Me? 

I think Gav's remark sums up this whole thread 

N.T


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## Happy (29 March 2010)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1033390


> NAKED DRIVER AVOIDS JAIL OVER DEATH
> Mon Mar 29 2010 , By Greg Roberts
> 
> A teenage woman has avoided jail despite crashing her car and killing her boyfriend while she was driving naked, drunk and over the speed limit.
> …





Makes me wander what does one have to do to go to jail?


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## newbie trader (29 March 2010)

She would never see the inside of a cell - just after reading that article. 19, remorse shown, family not pushing for a harsh penatly, serious mental illness. I can only comment on what I read obviously but she needs help instead of being locked away.

NT


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## Happy (30 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> ...
> I can only comment on what I read obviously but she needs *help *instead of being locked away.
> 
> NT




It worries me that innocent people are killed and all we do is worry about poor sick perpetrators.
My reaction to this is tough and sick person that can and does kill, should not have the right to be between us.
We not violent and not sick people need protection.

I just hate to do all the things to be safe:
don’t go out at night
don’t walk alone at night
don’t leave window open
lock the car (it is law now, it is illegal to leave car open)
have some kind of alarm system everywhere, security screens and security doors.
Drive in the biggest heaviest car you can afford, so in case of collision you have chance to survive.
Don’t react to anything anywhere not to be attacked
Don’t even look at some persons as it might be enough to provoke attack.
And on and on..

Just tiering to think about it.


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## newbie trader (30 March 2010)

Happy said:


> It worries me that innocent people are killed and all we do is worry about poor sick perpetrators.
> My reaction to this is tough and sick person that can and does kill, should not have the right to be between us.
> We not violent and not sick people need protection.
> 
> ...




Same situation 30 year old male - probably would have been locked up.

NT


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## Sir Osisofliver (31 March 2010)

http://www.news.com.au/national/fat...unching-attacker/story-e6frfkvr-1225847716849



Quite honestly if four football players raped my daughter....I'd have done more than smacled one of them across the mouth.

Sir O


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## Atlas79 (31 March 2010)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1034135/savage-rapist-has-sentence-slashed

Sigh...


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## newbie trader (15 April 2010)

This is kind of off topic (has some ties though) but I didnt want to begin a new thread. 

I read an article recently about underbelly and the posibility that through its glamorisation of crime (etc) it may have a detrimental effect on 'young people' encouraging them to engage in risky and unlawful activities. It was an interesting 2 minute read anyway.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...graceful-says-former-judge-20100413-s7po.html

To what extent, if any, do you guys think that underbelly has this effect?


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## Chris45 (23 April 2010)

A solidly built 17yo rushes at a slightly built 16yo and begins to throw a punch at him. The 16yo who, only a month previously had been assaulted and robbed, pulls out a knife to defend himself (remember 'one punch can kill' or turn you into a vegetable) and kills the aggressor and is now jailed for *three years* for manslaughter on the basis of having used "excessive self-defence". 



> The offender (the 16yo) had no criminal history, was genuinely remorseful and the violence used appeared to be "entirely uncharacteristic", the judge said.
> 
> Justice Hidden said Andrew (the 17yo) had clearly initiated the violence, and the offender and his group had been scared and sought to avoid conflict.
> 
> When Andrew rushed towards him aggressively, the youth was undoubtedly "very much in fear, particularly in the light of his relatively recent experience of aggression on a train".




Assuming the 16yo is not a natural fighter, I wonder how our 'system' expects him to defend himself when attacked by a violent thug???

I suppose he's expected to just beg for mercy and then lie down and allow himself to be punched and kicked senseless. 

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/chase-on-...arents-appeal-to-the-young-20100423-thvq.html


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## newbie trader (23 April 2010)

Chris45 said:


> A solidly built 17yo rushes at a slightly built 16yo and begins to throw a punch at him. The 16yo who, only a month previously had been assaulted and robbed, pulls out a knife to defend himself (remember 'one punch can kill' or turn you into a vegetable) and kills the aggressor and is now jailed for *three years* for manslaughter on the basis of having used "excessive self-defence".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I havn't done crim law yet so im just guessing (gumby help me out). He basically needed to take the beating or use such force that does not 'exceed' that of the other person? Although if the guy was a black belt in martial arts for instance I think that would be considered as a 'weapon' so the level of force could be increased. If they said that stabbing someone was ok in self defence when you are being beaten it would be a bit problematic. 

"His son Andrew, 17, was stabbed by a 16-year-old youth during a confrontation between two groups on a train"
"Justice Hidden said Andrew had clearly initiated the violence, and the offender and his group had been scared and sought to avoid conflict."

No one deserves to die like that. That article doesnt really shed light on what 'really' happend so its a bit hard to make comment. If it was the kid on his own sitting on the train and was attacked of course you'd feel sorry for him 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time'. But the offender was part of a group so its hard to say what actually happend. PROBLEMATIC (just going off the top of my head, its probably all wrong!).


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## GumbyLearner (23 April 2010)

newbie trader said:


> I havn't done crim law yet so im just guessing




I would start by reading this since your studying in Qld.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1973/35.html

Also consider reasonable fear/apprehension of death/GBH defences.
Remember provocation is not an exculpatory defence under the Qld Criminal Code.


----------



## newbie trader (23 April 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> I would start by reading this since your studying in Qld.
> 
> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1973/35.html
> 
> ...




Austlii is a great free resource isn't it. I'm looking forward to crim next year. Did you do admin during your studies? Apparently it is the hardest course you'll do.


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 April 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Austlii is a great free resource isn't it. I'm looking forward to crim next year. Did you do admin during your studies? Apparently it is the hardest course you'll do.




The key is to read. And read. And read. And read. Admin is tough just like most subjects. Which of course involves reading copious amounts of case law about natural justice and procedural fairness. 

Since you're a student I can only give you one piece of advice and that is

DYOR :


----------



## Chris45 (24 April 2010)

newbie trader said:


> He basically needed to take the beating or use such force that does not 'exceed' that of the other person?
> 
> If they said that stabbing someone was ok in self defence when you are being beaten it would be a bit problematic.



Yes, I agree it’s problematic and, because he was a minor, we will probably never hear the full story, as with that 12yo stabbing incident in Brisbane recently. Not knowing the full story behind these incidents is very unsatisfactory.

We don’t know what preceded the attack and whether there was any provocation, but my thoughts are that if an innocent person is attacked, he should be entitled to defend himself with whatever force he can muster, even if it means the death of the attacker, because he doesn’t know if the attacker is planning to kick him to death or what, so how can there be "excessive self-defence"? Some thugs viciously attack innocent people just for the thrill and the notion of being required to “take the beating” is completely unreasonable. I have absolutely zero compassion for such types.

However, if he provoked the attack and it was gang related, it’s a very different story. I wish we could be told ALL of the facts.


----------



## Chris45 (24 April 2010)

newbie trader said:


> I havn't done crim law yet so im just guessing



Newbie Trader, you sound like a Gen-Y law student so I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the following hypothetical.

A slightly built, nerdy 16yo, bullied all of his life, riding alone on a train and minding his own business, is attacked by an aggressive, solidly built 17yo thug who simply doesn’t like the look of him and wants to unleash some pent-up anger on someone. The 16yo is cornered in the carriage and unable to escape so, in fear for his life as the 17yo lunges towards him, he defensively stabs and accidently kills him with a sharp object he carries for protection. There is no prior history between the two and no provocation.

So, if you were required to pass judgment on this 16yo and sentence him, what would you say?


----------



## bunyip (4 May 2010)

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up: 

Prison vs Work

*At prison* - You spend most of your time in a 10X10 cell. 
_*At work *_- You spend most of your time in an 6X6 cubicle. 

_*At prison*_ - You get three meals a day, fully paid for. 
_*At work*_ - You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it. 

_*At prison*_ - For good behavior you get time off. 
_*At work*_ - For good behavior you get more work. 

_*At prison*_ - The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you. 
_*At work *_- You must carry a security card and open all the doors yourself. 

_*At prison*_ - You can watch TV and play games as much as you like.
_*At work*_ - You could get fired for watching TV and playing games. 

_*At prison*_ - You get your own toilet. 
_*At work*_ - You have to share the toilet with a dozen or more other people. 

_*At prison*_ - Your family and friends are allowed to visit. 
_*At work*_ - You aren't even supposed to speak to your family. 

_*At prison*_ - All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with almost no work required of you. 
_*At work*_ - You must pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners. 

_*At prison*_ - You spend most of your life behind bars wanting to get out. 
_*At work*_ - You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars. 

_*At prison*_ - You must deal with sadistic wardens. 
_*At work *_- Same story, except the wardens are called 'supervisers' or 'managers.' 


THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY  WRONG WITH THIS SCENARIO.


----------



## newbie trader (5 May 2010)

bunyip said:


> THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY  WRONG WITH THIS SCENARIO.




Its generally seen that punishment extends up until and including sentencing. After this rehabilitation begins. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not (hard to say when each offender is uniquely different). If you were to reverse the treatment of prisoners (reverse it from what you have described above) what benefit will this have to the community and the prisoners themselves?


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 May 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Its generally seen that punishment extends up until and including sentencing. After this rehabilitation begins. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not (hard to say when each offender is uniquely different). If you were to reverse the treatment of prisoners (reverse it from what you have described above) what benefit will this have to the community and the prisoners themselves?




A criminal may weigh up the pros and cons of being jailed for the crime as a fair trade off against the possibility of being caught. The non deterrent factors such as modern facilities, reduced sentencing and compassion for the perpetrator being considerations before committing an offense.


----------



## IFocus (19 June 2010)

This grim little story should warm those cold  hearts wanting to lock everyone up based on black and white thinking.



> THE death of a prisoner bashed at Grafton jail has put further pressure on the tough sentencing culture of the state government's law and order policies.




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/dead-man-did-not-need-a-prison-cell-20100618-ymu2.html


----------



## Slipperz (19 June 2010)

IFocus said:


> This grim little story should warm those cold  hearts wanting to lock everyone up based on black and white thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/dead-man-did-not-need-a-prison-cell-20100618-ymu2.html






So the bloke was in jail for driving while disqualified 8 freaking times.

Last year 137 people died on our roads, anyones guess how many more got horribly injured.

So far this year the tally stands at 152.

Driving a motor vehicle in our community is a privilege not a right contingent on responsible use of that vehicle according to community standards.

What if he got let off ( for the ninth time!) and then had an accident causing death?

Can you imagine the public outcry of why wasn't he in jail?

I am by no means suggesting he should of died in jail.

The fact is unfortunately for him he ended up amongst other irresponsible, dangerous and socially unnacceptable individuals and he met an unpleasant end.

That's the risk of breaking the social contract we all sign onto imo.


----------



## newbie trader (19 June 2010)

Slipperz said:


> So the bloke was in jail for driving while disqualified 8 freaking times.
> 
> Last year 137 people died on our roads, anyones guess how many more got horribly injured.
> 
> ...




In this case (having knowledge from only the ARTICLE itself) it would appear that jail may not have been the best of options for this man and it would have been foreseeable given his condition (could not read social cues etc) that he may come to harm if imprisoned. To my limited knowledge he has not killed anyone. What other form of punishment should have been applied here? I do not know. The one given, however, (upon face value) IMO was not correct.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 June 2010)

bunyip said:


> Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up:
> 
> Prison vs Work
> 
> ...




May I add to that 

*At prison* - You get a condom if you are lucky, little choice of same sex partner and beaten if the assailant is caught out.

*at work* - If you are CEO of DJS, you get unlimited condoms, a wide choice of leggy blonde female partners and $8 mil when you get caught out.

I really feel some of the posters here should spend a few weeks in one of our prisons. they are nasty, dangerous, horrible places , a breeding ground for  assault, further criminality, disease and mental conditions.

Only the worst of the worst should be sentenced to prison. e.g murderers/rapists etc and Financial Planners who rob people of millions of dollars in dodgy schemes.

It serves no utility when you look at the recidivism rate.

gg


----------



## Julia (19 June 2010)

What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?


----------



## nunthewiser (19 June 2010)

Julia said:


> What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?




Give him a sixpack and a new car?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 June 2010)

Julia said:


> What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?




Julia I think NT is admiring his new $20 AFL footie socks in the mirror again, with probably little else on.
So If I may , I will answer.

These idiots have been around since the dawn of time. Was he sick in the head? Is he just an idiot with no thought of consequences. Did he have a reason to drive so frequently while disqualified, e.g. working for a drug dealer.
In the old days the coppers would have "spoken" to him prior to his 3rd appearance.

Its a pretty sick society out there at the bottom, and also at the top by the way. 

That is why I feel we need someone like Abbott, who has the balls to tackle these issues instead of ole flip flop slap it on Rudd. Society needs a wake up call, otherwise we will end up like the UK.

gg


----------



## Julia (19 June 2010)

OK gg, What then do you think Mr Abbott would do?
What do you think should have happened to the disqualified driver when he appeared for the eighth time?


----------



## newbie trader (19 June 2010)

Julia said:


> What would you like to have seen happen to this person as an alternative to jail, NT, bearing in mind the reality of the options available?




As I said before i'm not really sure. But possibly something where he does not have contact with possibly dangerous individuals whom have a propensity for violence (given his apparent psychological condition). Do you have any ideas Julia or do you believe the punishment was fitting?


----------



## Julia (19 June 2010)

newbie trader said:


> As I said before i'm not really sure. But possibly something where he does not have contact with possibly dangerous individuals whom have a propensity for violence (given his apparent psychological condition). Do you have any ideas Julia or do you believe the punishment was fitting?



No, on the basis of the newspaper story, he doesn't seem like a candidate for jail to me.
But the unpleasant reality is that we no longer have the facilities for adequately treating people like this.  More than half the prison population has a mental health issue, which pretty obviously is going to be exacerbated by the sort of abuse this particular bloke apparently endured.

At the same time, on a societal level you can't just let people who persist in driving while disqualified continue to do this.  The likely outcome would be injury to other people.

It won't happen because neither side will ever have the necessary political will, but we need various levels of institutional mental healthcare, not large asylum type places, but group houses where people with a mental illness can have some independence, but with support and supervision.
There are so many people who are just not equipped to negotiate their way through ordinary, everyday life, and imo we have a duty of care toward them.

I know plenty will disagree with me, and favour tossing them all into jail.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 June 2010)

Julia said:


> OK gg, What then do you think Mr Abbott would do?
> What do you think should have happened to the disqualified driver when he appeared for the eighth time?




There is nothing that can be done presently, other than what happened. everyone from the Judge down is covering their ass, to ensure that they deal with the process properly. they go through the motions, get their pay, don't appear on the front of the Courier Mail and retire into some goddam nursing home where they go demented and are kept alive forever.

It is a societal problem. It does not start when he walks in to court. There are no consequences for the parents of people like this. So that should be looked at first off. People have too many rights nowadays, and act with absolutely zilch responsibility. 

It was probably too late to really do anything after he drove for the 2nd time irresponsibly.

As for people whingeing about the road toll. They need to grow up. More people die from murder within 10k's of each World Cup event venue  in one week, than die in five years on Australian roads. People do die on roads. It is risky hurtling at 100kph in a bloody Toyota Pious with dodgy brakes and assholes disqualified 8 times rushing about the cross roads. 

If Tony Abbott were in for ten or fifteen years, Australia might get the mantle back of the "lucky country", with a moral backbone.

gg


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## IFocus (19 June 2010)

newbie trader said:


> In this case (having knowledge from only the ARTICLE itself) it would appear that jail may not have been the best of options for this man and it would have been foreseeable given his condition (could not read social cues etc) that he may come to harm if imprisoned. To my limited knowledge he has not killed anyone. What other form of punishment should have been applied here? I do not know. The one given, however, (upon face value) IMO was not correct.




Nice post NT 


As an aside in WA there are suppose to be 40,000 drivers driving without licenses mostly due to unpaid fines etc, WA jails are over flowing now so makes you wonder about all the BS tough on crime politics.


----------



## IFocus (19 June 2010)

Julia said:


> No, on the basis of the newspaper story, he doesn't seem like a candidate for jail to me.
> But the unpleasant reality is that we no longer have the facilities for adequately treating people like this.  More than half the prison population has a mental health issue, which pretty obviously is going to be exacerbated by the sort of abuse this particular bloke apparently endured.
> 
> At the same time, on a societal level you can't just let people who persist in driving while disqualified continue to do this.  The likely outcome would be injury to other people.
> ...



..


Agree 100% we have gone down the same road as USA under Regan pull money out of mental health and lock up the unwell.


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## newbie trader (20 June 2010)

A 13 year old girl sold to a truck driver by her mum for some fuel.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/girl-13-sold-for-fuel-20100619-ynvu.html


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## Tink (22 June 2010)

I cant believe this, was absolute bedlam in Melbourne yesterday.

Supposedly this guy was not long released, in court in Nov last year.

*Police hunt for suspect David Paul Rowntree wanted over brandishing shotgun and leading cops on wild police chase *

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...he-domain-tunnel/story-e6frf7kx-1225882177753


----------



## newbie trader (22 June 2010)

Tink said:


> I cant believe this, was absolute bedlam in Melbourne yesterday.
> 
> Supposedly this guy was not long released, in court in Nov last year.
> 
> ...




Did you have to 'lock down' Tink?


----------



## Happy (6 August 2010)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/7941065/swearing-at-police-okay-queensland-magistrate



> SWEARING AT POLICE OKAY: QUEENSLAND MAGISTRATE
> 
> 12:30 AEST Fri Aug 6 2010
> By ninemsn staff
> ...




Not sure if it fits well here, but with attitude like that, we can see why sentences often do not fit some expectations.


----------



## explod (6 August 2010)

Happy said:


> I’ll digress a little; we do not have enough money to provide free travel for children to attend school.
> We do not have enough money to eliminate hospital elective surgery waiting lists, nor make dental care more affordable, nor have enough police to PREVENT CRIME, nor enough money to provide higher education at better prices that it is now, and the list if almost endless, obesity, diabetics, drugs dependence not to mention that some parents are not fit to raise children (this is where most bad seeds are sprouting)
> 
> We do cull problematic animals.
> ...




Have just been reading over the early posts in this thread.

Having had many years professionally trying to come to terms with sentencing I believe that what Happy posted here back in 08 is spot on.

This generation, *forget it * and punitive measures have been proved to not work, *full stop*.   

We will only solve any of the problems by first concentrating on family's, to support parents and ensure the offspring are controlled properly from birth; and

properly educated with the state funding fully the education to at least 3rd year uni with several social science subjects as compulsory; and

no dole for those that can stand up, they must work at something for the state to recieve anything at all even if that is standing on a corner to make sure people are given directions; and

police focus on community involvement programs that encourage youth first, second, the community to work together on making a safer environment; and

where a person is sentenced that no release takes place till that person is *educated* to a dregree that ensures he/she not only not offends again but contributes constructively to the community wellbeing.

Hanging does not work, it just makes those left so bitter that the problem mutiplies times over.


----------



## explod (6 August 2010)

Happy said:


> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/7941065/swearing-at-police-okay-queensland-magistrate
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if it fits well here, but with attitude like that, we can see why sentences often do not fit some expectations.




If someone does wrong and its against the law and the police have the powers then they can do something about it.

If the person has done nothing wrong at law and the police assert themsleves then perhaps they will be told in terms they may not like but are in fact terms that have become the normal community standard then that is stiff.

There was a case back in the late 60's exactly like this where they told the police where to go with the magic word and the Magistrate made the same finding.

Interesting.


----------



## Julia (6 August 2010)

explod said:


> Have just been reading over the early posts in this thread.
> 
> Having had many years professionally trying to come to terms with sentencing I believe that what Happy posted here back in 08 is spot on.
> 
> This generation, *forget it * and punitive measures have been proved to not work, *full stop*.



Good that you're at least attempting to put up some potential solutions, explod. 



> We will only solve any of the problems by first concentrating on family's, to support parents and ensure the offspring are controlled properly from birth;



This sounds so sensible, and it is, except that the intensive social support systems required to do this would be impossibly expensive.  There are simply some people who should never have children and who do nothing more than add to the problem of multi generational welfare dependence.



> properly educated with the state funding fully the education to at least 3rd year uni with several social science subjects as compulsory;



Just not practical in all instances.  Some kids can't study and sending them to university would be a total waste of taxpayer funds.  Instead, we should be funding more apprenticeships and education in basic social skills.




> no dole for those that can stand up, they must work at something for the state to recieve anything at all even if that is standing on a corner to make sure people are given directions;



Agree absolutely.  And such a measure is not just to make the taxpayer feel better about paying the dole.  The recipients' own welfare will be enhanced by productive activity, a sense of participation in the community.  Sitting at home on the dole is utterly counter-productive.



> police focus on community involvement programs that encourage youth first, second, the community to work together on making a safer environment;



Yep, it's easy to sit back and be critical.  If more community members were to become involved, especially in mixing the generations, the results would probably be worthwhile.  



> where a person is sentenced that no release takes place till that person is *educated* to a dregree that ensures he/she not only not offends again but contributes constructively to the community wellbeing.



You're assuming all such people are capable of being so educated and/or rehabilitated.  It's simply not always so.  Also, to carry this out, you'd have to build a lot more jails and totally reconstruct the attitude of the judiciary.


----------



## explod (7 August 2010)

Julia said:


> Good that you're at least attempting to put up some potential solutions, explod.
> 
> Always put up solutions Julia its just that my side of things counter yours via our political eyes/view most often.
> 
> ...


----------



## Happy (9 August 2010)

explod said:


> ...
> I cannot stop conceptualising as I worked for many years in a Research and Development think tank.
> ...
> explod





Impossible to implement, but concept of getting rid of all undesirable individuals is doable, especially that even Dick Smith thinks of need for population control.

We have plenty of spares (just by looking at unemployment data)

Jails could be converted to aged care facilities (no my idea, mentioned on TV already)

Of course, hard decisions would have to be made, as it is now only criminals have right to execute at their will and our precious snowflake approach cannot stop that - almost funny!


----------



## Tink (29 April 2012)

I wasnt sure where to put this, but I am shocked at the verdict of this case.
I feel so sorry for the parents.
Hmm, I wonder if he is guilty and walking away.


*Tears all round as Bond found not guilty *
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...-not-guilty-20120428-1xs1f.html#ixzz1tNH5fB12


----------



## dutchie (11 July 2012)

I just don't get this.

*Life *sentences to all. Then some can get parole in *6 years or so*??

When will society (judges) start making people responsible for their actions?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...danese-immigrant/story-e6frg6nf-1226423602794


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## dutchie (16 August 2012)

Three deaths - three years.

One year for each life - fair sentencing????

http://www.smh.com.au/queensland/driver-jailed-for-causing-three-teens-deaths-20120816-249p9.html

I don't think so!


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## DB008 (4 October 2012)

Repeat sexual offender rapes 3 year old in the NT, will be out in 4 years

Link to pdf - http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/sentencing_remarks/2012/9/Tennyson_13092012_21117047_senNet.pdf


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## MrBurns (4 October 2012)

DB008 said:


> Repeat sexual offender rapes 3 year old in the NT, will be out in 4 years
> 
> Link to pdf - http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/sentencing_remarks/2012/9/Tennyson_13092012_21117047_senNet.pdf




No wonder the police throw their hands in the air, they'll have to round this bloke up again after he rapes/murders someone when he gets out.
He might move to Brunswick, perhaps too many CCTV cameras there.


----------



## McLovin (4 October 2012)

DB008 said:


> Repeat sexual offender rapes 3 year old in the NT, will be out in 4 years
> 
> Link to pdf - http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/sentencing_remarks/2012/9/Tennyson_13092012_21117047_senNet.pdf




head sentence of 8 years and clearly a threat to the community according to the sentencing judge. I doubt he will get out when parole comes up at 6.5.


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## MrBurns (20 November 2012)

Another nice piece of work set free by our impotent legal system, hope those responsible feel they are to blame for this girls death, because they are.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-...t-in-connection-with-cafferkey-murder/4380854


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## Tink (22 November 2012)

Yes, unbelievable Mr Burns, that this guy only got 12 years for murder the last time - then out to do it all again.


----------



## MrBurns (22 November 2012)

Tink said:


> Yes, unbelievable Mr Burns, that this guy only got 12 years for murder the last time - then out to do it all again.




The system is horribly flawed, can you imagine how much dangerous scum is out there ?


----------



## Tink (22 November 2012)

Well they said he had no remorse, why would they sign him out.

I feel sorry for the families.


----------



## pixel (22 November 2012)

MrBurns said:


> The system is horribly flawed, can you imagine how much dangerous scum is out there ?




... and it would be so easy to fix.
Take a leaf out of the old "eye for an eye": make it "one testicle for a rape". Hardly anyone would get to three...
Maybe borrow - selectively! - from Sharia: One lash for a brawl; 100 lashes for the first manslaughter.
I'm sure they also have provisions for home invaders and common robbers...

For some scum, Jailing doesn't work, regardless for how long. A bullet is much more cost-effective.


----------



## MrBurns (22 November 2012)

pixel said:


> ... and it would be so easy to fix.
> Take a leaf out of the old "eye for an eye": make it "one testicle for a rape". Hardly anyone would get to three...
> Maybe borrow - selectively! - from Sharia: One lash for a brawl; 100 lashes for the first manslaughter.
> I'm sure they also have provisions for home invaders and common robbers...
> ...




I agree, at very least they should not let them out again, keep them off the streets and we'd all be a lot safer.
What makes them think that someone capable of murder , child molestation or rape will be miraculaouly cured by time in jail ?

Time to bring back the star chamber - 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2012)

> Now-quadriplegic stab victim sees attacker jailed
> 
> A man who stabbed another in the neck six times, causing him to become a quadriplegic, has been jailed for at least five years over the vicious attack.
> 
> ...




5 years what a joke..........

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/stabber-jailed-over-attack-which-left-man-quadriplegic/4420780


----------



## explod (11 December 2012)

MrBurns said:


> 5 years what a joke..........
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/stabber-jailed-over-attack-which-left-man-quadriplegic/4420780




Yes it looks bad and there are two victims and one culprit which is the community.

Why was he drunk and on drugs?

Perhaps and most likely in my experience because of bad upbringing, lack of education and support to his family.

Five years is a long time if we consideer the community costs of keeping him there too.

We need a community to focus more on family supports, work for all as much as possible but ensure that the envioronment brings equal opportunity to all of our children growing up regardless of wealth.

But whilst we allow casinos, pokies, and liberal liquor laws, and so many other facets in this direction we deserve what we get


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2012)

I dont think there's any "touchy feely"answer, I think some people are just bad.

Bigger jails, no parole.


----------



## Julia (11 December 2012)

explod said:


> Yes it looks bad and there are two victims and one culprit which is the community.



If it were 'the community' why are the majority living in the community not afflicted with similar behaviour?



> Why was he drunk and on drugs?
> 
> Perhaps and most likely in my experience because of bad upbringing, lack of education and support to his family.



Certainly factors which contribute to a sense of being a victim and consequent desire to hit back, but plenty of young people from 'good' families who lose their way also.


----------



## JTLP (11 December 2012)

It really irks me that people's upbringing can be used as a disposition for their disgraceful behaviour.

Julia has noted that plenty of good people turn bad - I think it is the biggest suckers defence to drop that XYZ went through ABC so deserves a lighter sentence. It's a multitude of things that need to be done to fix crime - but we really do need minimum mandatory sentencing...i.e.

Drunk on a Saturday night and you assault someone - 1 year in the slammer
As per above but any form of permanent/long term damage/manslaughter - 5 years to 25 years

I've obviously put about 20 seconds thought into the above - but I'd love to give it a run to see how heroic all those jocks would feel on a Saturday night with a bit of dutch courage in them. You could guarantee you'd at least get 1 of their friends pulling them back saying "you'll get a year "


----------



## cynic (11 December 2012)

explod said:


> Yes it looks bad and there are two victims and one culprit which is the community.
> 
> Why was he drunk and on drugs?
> 
> ...




Great idea Plod!

Let's just remove all freedom of choice whilst simultaneously indoctrinating the masses into the belief that society is wholly to blame for the harmful actions of its members. That way, anyone committing a crime won't be truly guilty as it will be society's fault for having allowed the member sufficient liberty to perpetrate the crime. After all, history has already demonstrated the efficacy of prohibition, so we know we're definitely onto something here! 

We might have to chryogenically freeze the entire human race in order to achieve this lofty goal, but at least it'll lower the crime rate and that has to be a good thing! Am I right?


----------



## explod (12 December 2012)

None of you above live in the real world.

An eye for an eye does not and has never worked.

Unless of course you want a totalitarian police state.


----------



## cynic (12 December 2012)

explod said:


> None of you above live in the real world.
> 
> An eye for an eye does not and has never worked.
> 
> Unless of course you want a totalitarian police state.




I'm no fan of "eye for an eye" style justice either, but I do find the total abrogration of personal accountability for one's actions abhorrent. 

Negative repercussions (i.e. prosecution via our justice system) have served as deterrants to criminal behaviour in the past, particularly for those citizens not already endowed with a moral compass. The efficacy of such deterrance was evidenced by the dramatic increase in unlawful behaviour during the police strikes of the last century. 

I shudder every time I see our liberty further encroached by a "knee-jerk" reaction to crimes perpetrated by those "morally-challenged" members of our society. It would seem that our society believes everybody, innocent and guilty alike, ought to be held to account for the criminal actions of the few.

My preference is for a society that allows freedom of choice, and, at the same time, demonstrates a commitment to holding those whom abuse said freedom fully accountable for their misdeeds.


----------



## Tink (12 December 2012)

How much more education and support can be given -- honestly.

Once upon a time, people were more involved with what was going on in society, well I think they were.
People seem concerned today to give a helping hand in fear of their own lives, the way everything has escalated, be it drugs, alcohol.

-- is it the media that has portrayed this so badly, or has society really become so feral?


----------



## explod (12 December 2012)

cynic said:


> I'm no fan of "eye for an eye" style justice either, but I do find the total abrogration of personal accountability for one's actions abhorrent.
> 
> Negative repercussions (i.e. prosecution via our justice system) have served as deterrants to criminal behaviour in the past, particularly for those citizens not already endowed with a moral compass. The efficacy of such deterrance was evidenced by the dramatic increase in unlawful behaviour during the police strikes of the last century.
> 
> ...




I do not disagree.

We need to deploy the youth properly, HECS fees for university discriminate's for a start.

We should have a compulsory two year conscription for those leaving year 12, on military lines if you like, where they are deployed for peaceful and useful community purposes.  

After the 2nd WW my Farther and his peers were led back into work, farming and the community in a way that saw our society prosper for 50 years.   Government needs to have the balls to really go outside the square to get this wonderful country back on such a track.


----------



## MrBurns (12 December 2012)

explod said:


> I do not disagree.
> 
> We need to deploy the youth properly, HECS fees for university discriminate's for a start.
> 
> ...




Non of that addresses the issue at hand.
The woman murdered recently , forget the name, was murdered by some creep who was out on parole after killing someone else.
I'm fed up with this piss weak system to be honest, we need more justice and less "law"


----------



## explod (12 December 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Non of that addresses the issue at hand.
> The woman murdered recently , forget the name, was murdered by some creep who was out on parole after killing someone else.
> I'm fed up with this piss weak system to be honest, we need more justice and less "law"




Well it is not going to change as things are heading.  Of course such tyrants need to be locked away and the key thrown away too.

But lets look for some real change so that we stop breeding so many of them.  Saying that you are sick of the "piss weak system" does not help.


----------



## Calliope (12 December 2012)

explod said:


> Well it is not going to change as things are heading.  Of course such tyrants need to be locked away and the key thrown away too.
> 
> But lets look for some real change so that we stop breeding so many of them.  Saying that you are sick of the "piss weak system" does not help.




So what does ex-high-ranking-police-officer Mr Plod suggest we do to stop criminals breeding more criminals?


----------



## MrBurns (12 December 2012)

explod said:


> Well it is not going to change as things are heading.  Of course such tyrants need to be locked away and the key thrown away too.
> 
> But lets look for some real change so that we stop breeding so many of them.  Saying that you are sick of the "piss weak system" does not help.




You can't correct this by consultation and counseling, this society breeds some bad people it always has, they need to be kept in cages away from the general public, no point spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on trials and wasting police time when they take a lenient attitude and let them out again.
That womans death was directly caused by the system as it stands now and you better look over your shoulder because you're at risk too as are all of us.


----------



## MrBurns (12 December 2012)

Why would you bother joining the police force.



> Confessed drug trafficker walks free
> 
> 
> A man who admitted to drug trafficking charges has had a case against him dropped.
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-12/confessed-drug-trafficker-walks-free/4423220


----------



## pixel (12 December 2012)

The examples and cases given in this discussion make you ever so much more sympathetic to Sharia Law, don't they? Not all of it, to be sure; but if a crim would feel a few lashes on his back, maybe there'd be much less re-offending. Especially if reinforced by giving the chop to those parts of the body used in committing the crime.

Likewise, I think our legal system is going mad with making excuses for criminal acts: If a rapist did what he did because he was abused as a child, bring his abuser(s) to justice and apply the same punishment to them. That might, over time, reduce the number of backyard laboratories, drug dealers, scout masters, even priests, but overall, it would have a very sanitizing effect on society at large.


----------



## McLovin (12 December 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Why would you bother joining the police force.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-12/confessed-drug-trafficker-walks-free/4423220




Good to see police being pulled into line for breaking the law.


----------



## MrBurns (12 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> Good to see police being pulled into line for breaking the law.




Yep he's back on the street selling drugs to your kids


----------



## McLovin (12 December 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Yep he's back on the street selling drugs to your kids




He wouldn't be if the police knew how to do their job or, even, basic laws covering reasonable suspicion.

Police have a long sordid history of corruption in this country, they have no right to be given a free pass for breaking the law.


----------



## explod (12 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> So what does ex-high-ranking-police-officer Mr Plod suggest we do to stop criminals breeding more criminals?




I thought that I had made myself clear enough.

Governments and community focussed on providing better educational opportunities; 

assistance, support and in some cases supervision for families at the lower end of the socio-economic scale; 

deployment of all youth during their late education on community work;

at the first offender stage they be supervised by the state for more years for the community; (In fact those in gaol should be all doing productive work for the state)

and, instead of most politicians coming from the legal fraternity how about more from a sociological background.

And yes we could cut hands off, but that in my view will not deter the deranged in our society.  It has been shown that heavy handedness merely displaces a problem and does not solve it.


----------



## Tink (12 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> He wouldn't be if the police knew how to do their job or, even, basic laws covering reasonable suspicion.
> 
> Police have a long sordid history of corruption in this country, they have no right to be given a free pass for breaking the law.




Oh, come on -- and where would we be without the police.

Corruption in everything, doesnt mean you have to shoot down the lot.


----------



## McLovin (12 December 2012)

Tink said:


> Oh, come on -- and where would we be without the police.
> 
> Corruption in everything, doesnt mean you have to shoot down the lot.




I'm not shooting down the lot, I just have a healthy distrust for police. Ask any criminal defence lawyer about the shenaningans the police get up to.

I'm sure the overwhelming majority of police do want to make a difference, but I don't see why these two should be defended for breaking the law. Not much point having laws if they're just going to be ignored.


----------



## MrBurns (12 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> He wouldn't be if the police knew how to do their job or, even, basic laws covering reasonable suspicion.
> 
> Police have a long sordid history of corruption in this country, they have no right to be given a free pass for breaking the law.




Judges discretion, FAIL.


----------



## Tink (12 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> I'm not shooting down the lot, I just have a healthy distrust for police. Ask any criminal defence lawyer about the shenaningans the police get up to.
> 
> I'm sure the overwhelming majority of police do want to make a difference, but I don't see why these two should be defended for breaking the law. Not much point having laws if they're just going to be ignored.




Glad to read you think a majority are trying to make a difference, as the first people we ring when in trouble are the police, without them, where would we be?
I agree, if they break the law, they should be held accountable.

I just dont like that negativity, sorry.


----------



## McLovin (12 December 2012)

Tink said:


> Glad to read you think a majority are trying to make a difference, as the first people we ring when in trouble are the police, without them, where would we be?
> I agree, if they break the law, they should be held accountable.
> 
> I just dont like that negativity, sorry.




I just think like every other organ of the state they need to be monitored and abide by the laws of the country. I don't believe in putting blind faith in anybody, the police, like the rest of us, are human too. It's a slippery slope if you create one set of laws for police and one for everyone else.


----------



## Julia (12 December 2012)

explod said:


> We need to deploy the youth properly, HECS fees for university discriminate's for a start.



What do you mean "HECS fees for university discriminates"?


----------



## explod (12 December 2012)

Julia said:


> What do you mean "HECS fees for university discriminates"?




For a start on graduation they are faced with a large HECS fee debt at a time when they are seeking work, many starting a family and trying to get their first home.

Second, with higher degrees they will be contributors for the rest of their lives via taxation for the total mix. (How many times do you keep having to pay taxes, whew.puff).

And third, it is the higher educated who lead the community in their later life, and we need very many more of them.

And finally it is clear that Governments do not want a too highly and educated fraternity as it brings them to account and of course through proper evaluation they tend to be left wing.

Remember well our dear little King Johnny getting rid of the students unions.  And why? because they see through the veneer and hypocrisy of big business Governments.  And on that note they used to rant that they stood for small business, what a joke that has turned out to be with the big food chains now dominating the petrol industry and farmers at the coalface and one can elaborate much more on such aspects as this.

Putting money directly into education is the best investment a Government can make for the betterment of all.


----------



## Julia (12 December 2012)

So, Explod, you believe the taxpayer, many of whom had no opportunity to pursue tertiary education, should fund out of their average weekly wage, the extended education of all those who aspire to holding multiple degrees and who qualify to earn salaries many, many times that of the said taxpayer?

You are happy for the specialist dentist/medical practitioner, earning hundreds of thousands a year, to be subsidised by the bloke trying to raise a family on around $50K a year, amongst it paying the fees for consultation with those very practitioners he has subsidised?


----------



## Julia (12 December 2012)

You might also be in favour of Nicola Roxon's latest thought bubble, Explod.  She is apparently suggesting that it should become against the law to offend someone.

Others might have the words to describe such a prospect.  I'm speechless!
The nanny state with all its stupid political correctness seems to know no bounds.


----------



## McLovin (13 December 2012)

explod said:
			
		

> Remember well our dear little King Johnny getting rid of the students unions. And why? because they see through the veneer and hypocrisy of big business Governments.




Those unions were a waste of time. It was just an excuse for a bunch of undersexed, wannabe politicians to play parliament with other people's money. I hardly got any benefit from them yet I had to pay my $500-$600 (not an insignificant amount when you're a student!) every year. If they had been of any use, then the unions would have welcomed voluntary membership. Making students pay for things like other students' childcare needs is just absurd.

I agree with you that university costs are too high. I think everyone at uni should have some skin in the game (ie not completely free) but I would hate for it to become like the US. The average university qualified worker earns far more and pays far more in tax over their lifetime.


----------



## MrBurns (13 December 2012)

The Chinese don't muck around - 



> Would-be plane bombers sentenced to death
> 
> Three men have been sentenced to death in China after allegedly trying to blow up a plane.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-12/death-sentence-for-would-be-plane-bombers/4424822


----------



## lindsayf (16 December 2012)

we continue to muck around....

1 year for a 'one punch thug'  murder by drunk 17yo

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-14/high-court-refuses-king-hit-appeal/4428768?section=vic


----------



## Tink (24 December 2012)

I wasnt sure where to put this but .. 
I cant believe how many times these criminals keep trying to appeal their cases. Their victims got life when they killed them, and they keep rehashing this for the poor families.
This really annoys me.
How many times can they take it to court.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-21/serial-killer-dupas-loses-appeal/4439760

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-07/man-who-drove-sons-into-dam-loses-appeal/4414582


----------



## MrBurns (14 April 2013)

Looks like this creep has now murdered someone but look at the second link to an article from 2 years ago..........why was this cretin on the street ? Our pathetic legal system at work again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-14/police-release-image-of-car-boot-murder-suspect/4628126

and earlier - 

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/634130/man-held-for-knife-threat/


----------



## Tink (14 April 2013)

Yes, Mr Burns, we have had a few repeat offenders in the news of late..

Was reading about this Julian Knight and how many times he has fronted court, at least he is still in jail but what a joke, honestly.


> Hoddle Street mass murderer Julian Knight appeared in court 15 times last year to challenge Corrections Victoria officials, prison staff and others about his jail conditions and his parole eligibility date - despite the serial legal pest being one of 12 people declared as vexatious litigants.
> 
> Knight, 45, murdered seven people and wounded 19 others during a 1987 shooting rampage in Hoddle Street, Clifton Hill. He was sentenced to life with a minimum of 27 years after he pleaded guilty to seven counts of murder and 46 counts of attempted murder. His earliest eligible release date is May 8, 2014, but the Adult Parole Board declared last year that it considered Knight a ''danger to the community'' and ''there is no prospect of an order for release on parole in the forseeable future''.
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/v...-law-review-20130413-2hsju.html#ixzz2QQiRU9MQ




I feel for the victims families.


----------



## MrBurns (14 April 2013)

I wish these people well Tink.........




> MURDER victim Sarah Cafferkey's family will launch an unprecedented legal assault against the State Government over criminals who kill while out on parole.
> 
> Other victims' families have been invited to join a class action, amid claims danger signs were ignored as potential murderers roamed the streets.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...state-government/story-e6frg6n6-1226619881506


----------



## Tink (15 April 2013)

Yes I saw that Mr Burns and wish them well also.


> CONVICTED killer Steven James Hunter's parole had expired just nine days before he murdered beautiful young Sarah Cafferkey.
> In the days after her stabbing death last November, Hunter, 47 - who first murdered a co-worker in 1986 - attracted little attention from police as he went about trying to conceal his crime, despite a tipoff about him.
> Hunter pleaded guilty to murdering the Melbourne woman - his second frenzied stabbing slaying in a criminal career spanning more than two decades.
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...er/story-fndo4cq1-1226607435906#ixzz2QSzwR1KP



It is a disgrace


----------



## explod (15 April 2013)

I agree Burns and Tink

*So what do you think we need to do about it?*

Closing down juvinile offender mentor programms like the libs did here in Victoria about a year or so back is not much help.


----------



## MrBurns (15 April 2013)

explod said:


> I agree Burns and Tink
> 
> *So what do you think we need to do about it?*
> 
> Closing down juvinile offender mentor programms like the libs did here in Victoria about a year or so back is not much help.




Build more jails, change the laws so the definition of who qualifies for rehabilitation is more realistic.

Once you commit a serious crime sexual, violence etc you really shouldn't be let back out.

You can't "punish" a sick mind, time in jail doesn't mean they wont reoffend, that's rubbish.

And putting them outside under "supervision" ? Please don't spend my taxes on bulldust like that, if they need supervision leave them inside. 

Jill Meagher and others would still be alive if the system was working in the public interest.


----------



## stewiejp (16 April 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Build more jails, change the laws so the definition of who qualifies for rehabilitation is more realistic.
> 
> Once you commit a serious crime sexual, violence etc you really shouldn't be let back out.
> 
> ...




Some excellent points Monty - and on a positive note, as we speak almost every prison in Victoria is being expanded by either putting in extra beds, building more units, or both. A new 500+ bed facility is being started soon, after the new financial year I believe.

If we build it, they will come.


----------



## qldfrog (16 April 2013)

500 beds extra..probably for the whole year
that is around a week of "so called refugees" landing here and if europe experience is taken into account whith the proportion of immigrants inmate there and their crime rate, this will not be anywhere near enough to keep the flood of new criminals in
But Australia is different of course, the poor "refugees" will all integrate and becomes mates, their daughters will roam the beaches and binge drink on friday night as true blue aussies
a short bust of anger
but the short sight attitude in handling illegal immigrants in this country will have far reaching negative consequences on the justice system here.
If you find the system lax now, wait 15years and see how it will be when jails will be so overpopulated that you have mass release every year just so that some jail terms can be applied.


----------



## MrBurns (16 April 2013)

It's a disgrace that it's come to this but the authorities clearly are unable to protect the public adequately.

It's really a matter of looking after your own.

When you see our Govt, for instance but not only , Gillard fully focused on buying votes, protecting her own back and intent on discrediting the opposition, and that's her only function..................what hope is there that attention would be given to an issue such as this.


----------



## Julia (16 April 2013)

stewiejp said:


> If we build it, they will come.



Is this a tongue-in-cheek remark?  What are you actually suggesting here?


----------



## MrBurns (16 April 2013)

> Valentine's Day child rapist wins sentence reduction
> 
> A New South Wales man who kidnapped and raped a six-year-old girl on Valentine's Day three years ago has won an appeal against his jail sentence.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-16/valentines-day-child-rapist-has-sentence-reduced/4632162

I would have thought it more appropriate that they thanked him for his appeal took him outside and blew his head off.


----------



## Calliope (16 April 2013)

Julia said:


> Is this a tongue-in-cheek remark?  What are you actually suggesting here?




A quotation from Field of Dreams..."if we build it he will come".

Stewiejp is  probably suggesting that if we build more jails there will be more candidates to fill them.

Parkinson's Law is similar;

Parkinson's Law:
Work expands to fill the time available for its completion.
Corollaries:
Data expands to fill the space available for storage.
Your stuff accumulates to fill the size of your home


----------



## Julia (16 April 2013)

Calliope said:


> A quotation from Field of Dreams..."if we build it he will come".
> 
> Stewiejp is  probably suggesting that if we build more jails there will be more candidates to fill them.
> 
> ...



Yes, I know all that, Calliope.  I was more interested in exactly what Stewiejp had in mind as there are various ways the comment could be interpreted when it comes to jails/offenders/criminal behaviour.
Stewiejp???


----------



## stewiejp (17 April 2013)

Julia,

 Victorian prisons have been full (or close to full) for some years. Last time I checked the stats there were (in even numbers) 5000 prisoners in Victorian prisons, and a further 10,000 "offenders" who were "serving their sentences in the community" - ie they were on parole, or serving non custodial sentences such as suspended sentence (weren't these going to be scrapped) or Community Based Orders etc. Those numbers are a few years old though. 

In the past year or two extra beds and/or units have been installed into the Melbourne Assessment Prison (city), Metro. Remand Centre, Port Philip Prison, Barwon, the 2 women's' prisons and all but maybe one or two of the country jails. They are all still full... hence the quote. 

FWIW prison numbers have nothing to do with illegal immigrants numbers - they are housed in separate facilities (Detention Centres) as they have not been found guilty or remanded of an offence in an Aussie court - they are simply here illegally, or could be here illegally. 

I don't pretend to have the answers, just throwing up a few stats.


----------



## MrBurns (17 April 2013)

stewiejp said:


> Julia,
> 
> Victorian prisons have been full (or close to full) for some years. Last time I checked the stats there were (in even numbers) 5000 prisoners in Victorian prisons, and a further 10,000 "offenders" who were "serving their sentences in the community" - ie they were on parole, or serving non custodial sentences such as suspended sentence (weren't these going to be scrapped) or Community Based Orders etc. Those numbers are a few years old though.
> 
> ...




That's very interesting, you must be involved somehow, scary to think they let so many dangerous persons out to roam among us.


----------



## Julia (17 April 2013)

stewiejp said:


> Julia,
> 
> Victorian prisons have been full (or close to full) for some years. Last time I checked the stats there were (in even numbers) 5000 prisoners in Victorian prisons, and a further 10,000 "offenders" who were "serving their sentences in the community" - ie they were on parole, or serving non custodial sentences such as suspended sentence (weren't these going to be scrapped) or Community Based Orders etc. Those numbers are a few years old though.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the full response, stewie. 
I'd like to broaden the discussion, if anyone is interested in participating, to consider what role jails play in our society:

  i.e. do we imprison people to punish them?   (Seems pretty reasonable to most of us that if someone offends against another, there should be some punishment attached, but some might disagree.)

do we imprison them with the belief that in the process they will be rehabilitated?
(The rate of recidivism would suggest that this is not working.)

do we imprison them to keep the rest of us safe or at least provide us with the illusion that we are safe?

what alternatives could we use to jail?


----------



## MrBurns (17 April 2013)

Julia said:


> Thanks for the full response, stewie.
> I'd like to broaden the discussion, if anyone is interested in participating, to consider what role jails play in our society:
> 
> i.e. do we imprison people to punish them?   (Seems pretty reasonable to most of us that if someone offends against another, there should be some punishment attached, but some might disagree.)
> ...




Jail seems to be punishment for all crimes, trouble is there's a big difference between embezzling money and raping someone.
Victimless crimes can be handled with punishment but crimes of a violent nature are different, those offenders should be properly assessed and some of them should be locked away permanently but it doesn't work that way, they get out again, punishment does not cure a violent nature or criminally/mentally sick person.


----------



## MrBurns (17 April 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Jail seems to be punishment for all crimes, trouble is there's a big difference between embezzling money and raping someone.
> Victimless crimes can be handled with punishment but crimes of a violent nature are different, those offenders should be properly assessed and some of them should be locked away permanently but it doesn't work that way, they get out again, punishment does not cure a violent nature or criminally/mentally sick person.




I meant jail terms with a release date shouldn't apply to all crimes, some offenders should just be in for life, meaning life with no minimum term.


----------



## Country Lad (17 April 2013)

From today's Townsville Bulletin

*Police union anger over sentence for man who urinated on cop*
EMMA CHANNON  |  April 17th, 2013


_A MAN who 'danced and laughed' while he urinated on a female police officer after pushing her down two steps has avoided jail in a decision that has stunned the police union._

_Acting Magistrate Richard Lehmann sentenced Terare to three months' jail, but wholly suspended it for 12 months._

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2013/04/17/379525_news.html

Let's hope Acting Magistrate Richard Lehmann never becomes a real magistrate.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## stewiejp (18 April 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I meant jail terms with a release date shouldn't apply to all crimes, some offenders should just be in for life, meaning life with no minimum term.




Doesn't really happen in this country. Even Julian Knight is eligible for parole soon, though I personally doubt he'll get it. Life, no minimum generally only happens with murderers and paedophiles who are repeat offenders and deemed too great a risk to society.
From memory, a law was passed (maybe in the 80's) stating everyone was entitled to a "minimum" - which is why Knight got one. His maximum (I'd guess) is life.


----------



## MrBurns (19 April 2013)

> Man jailed for bashing boy to death
> 
> A New South Wales man has been jailed for up to eight years for bashing his partner's four-year-old son to death.
> 
> ...



.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-19/man-jailed-for-bashing-boy-to-death/4639764

This creep will be out soon, moving among us like a normal human being...........:bad:


----------



## stewiejp (19 April 2013)

It seems to be becoming more predominant, maybe to "plea bargain", as is common in the US, murder gets downgraded to manslaughter (which is a lot different to murder IMO), or defensive homicide - both resulting in a single figure sentence, on order for a quicker (some would say cheaper) trial. 
Justice? Not even close your honour.


----------



## MrBurns (3 May 2013)

Here we go again, why should this animal ever be released, the only suitable punishment for him is a rope BUT no they'll let him out to mix with us all in 12 years.



> Man jailed over Kiesha's death
> 
> Sydney man Robert Smith has been sentenced to 16 years' jail after pleading guilty to the manslaughter of six-year-old Kiesha Weippeart.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-03/man-jailed-over-kieshas-death/4668372


----------



## MrBurns (3 May 2013)

And this absolute psychopath will be out in 7 



> Kidnapper jailed over 'bizarre' open grave ransom bid
> 
> A kidnapper who terrorised a student before pushing her into an open grave has been jailed for at least seven years.
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-03/man-jailed-for-kidnapping-woman-he-met-online/4667908


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2013)

Yes here we go, building a better Australia.
Two of the guilty are complaining that the third perpetrator got less of a sentence.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17217528/teens-behind-bars-for-gang-attack/

What about the Innocent Victim, who gives a $hit about him, he doesn't even rate a mention.


----------



## Bill M (18 May 2013)

I just saw the Sydney news tonight and there was a story about a bus driver that whilst going about his job a female teenager took it upon herself to punch this guy 30 times in the head. He called for help and a passenger assisted him in stopping the girl. The call went out to Police and they arrested her at a shopping square. The bus driver was 64 years old. It was all captured on video. She was out on bail less the 24 hours later. Why let scum like this out on bail so easily?


----------



## pixel (18 May 2013)

Bill M said:


> I just saw the Sydney news tonight and there was a story about a bus driver that whilst going about his job a female teenager took it upon herself to punch this guy 30 times in the head. He called for help and a passenger assisted him in stopping the girl. The call went out to Police and they arrested her at a shopping square. The bus driver was 64 years old. It was all captured on video. She was out on bail less the 24 hours later. Why let scum like this out on bail so easily?




Why let scum like that stay at all?
Send her as an exchange student to Afghanistan for example. Exchange, that is, for refugees from there, who are serious about making an honest effort and live in peace.


----------



## polpak (19 May 2013)

Sentencing is less a problem than social associations with other prisoners (aka crime school). 


Spend their time in a cell, with video-connection for counselling, educational tasks, then after hours for TV  and/or online family contact time.

Extra video-time as rewards for completing appropriate tasks or courses.


Bess Price MLA provided her clear view: 

http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2013/05/17/mla-bess-price-on-the-killing-of-our-women-and-abuse-of-our-kids/ 



.


----------



## stewiejp (19 May 2013)

Very interesting article, and something which nobody else has been brave enough to touch.

From the article:
_
Australians were not told that the death rate amongst our young men was *higher outside custody than in*, and that *more Aboriginal women died at the hands of their menfolk than Aboriginal men died in custody*. Since then, so many more women have died and have been sexually abused, assaulted …_

Didn't know that - for what it's worth in Victoria the rate of incarceration for Aboriginals is 10x the rate as for non Aboriginals. Something definitely has to be done, but as stated in the article, no idea which is thought of by "whitefellas" will be accepted, it has to be an Aboriginal idea. Throwing more billions of dollars at the problem won't work... or it hasn't so far.

probably a topic for another thread

/rantover


----------



## DB008 (20 May 2013)

Magistrate reads the riot act to Mahmoud Eid



> A MAGISTRATE handing a chief offender in last year's Muslim riots a four-year jail term says if it was possible she would have sentenced him for longer.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national-news/magistrate-reads-the-riot-act-to-mahmoud-eid/story-fncynjr2-1226638956806#ixzz2TpXACRyg


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## MrBurns (19 June 2013)

Bayley being sentenced for Jill Meagher murder

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-...d-for-rape-and-murder-of-jill-meagher/4764318

25 page judgment will take 45 minutes to deliver, how much public money is spent on this scum, all we need is a gallows.


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## MrBurns (20 June 2013)

Couple of violent offenders broke curfew from their residential facility, how unexpected.
Now they're on the run amongst us.



> A pair of sex offenders has escaped from a residential facility dubbed the 'Village of the Damned' in regional Victoria.
> 
> 
> The two men broke their curfew and escaped from Corella Place, near Ararat, on Wednesday night, a Department of Justice spokesman told AAP on Thursday.
> ...



.


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/06/20/11/29/two-sex-offenders-on-the-run-in-vic


----------



## stewiejp (20 June 2013)

http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/1585779/sex-predators-caught-in-country-victoria/?cs=12

Caught them at 1240pm today. Good work by the cops, hope nobody was injured/assaulted last night.


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## MrBurns (20 June 2013)

stewiejp said:


> http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/1585779/sex-predators-caught-in-country-victoria/?cs=12
> 
> Caught them at 1240pm today. Good work by the cops, hope nobody was injured/assaulted last night.




The cops always have to pick up the pieces after the courts fail, regularly.


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## Sir Osisofliver (2 July 2013)

You've got to be freaking kidding me.

father who raped daughter - good behaviour bond

You know, right now I'd vote for someone who wanted to bring in mandatory life (and I mean behind bars until you die) for rape of children under the age of 10.

Just disgraceful - how can that Judge sleep at night?


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> You've got to be freaking kidding me.
> 
> father who raped daughter - good behaviour bond
> 
> ...




I sometimes wonder if some judges are paedophiles themselves.


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## MrBurns (12 July 2013)

And the prize for most ridiculous sentence so far this year goes to...........



> Community service for speeding teenage driver who killed friend
> 
> By Ewan Gilbert
> 
> ...



.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 July 2013)

Maybe a suspended sentence would have been justified if he had not lied and showed contrition, but I think jail would have done him good. Probably the son of a politician's mistress..


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## MrBurns (12 July 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> . Probably the son of a politician's mistress..




That's what I was thinking.......Canberra is a small town.


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## MrBurns (20 July 2013)

Now this sick creep should be tagged as a future murderer, people who do this to animals very often end up doing it to people.




> Teenager charged after puppy tortured, thrown off balcony in NSW town of Casino
> 
> Police have charged a teenage boy with torturing a puppy in north-east New South Wales.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-20/teenager-charged-with-torturing-puppy/4832626


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## Julia (20 July 2013)

Hideous little s**t.   There's nothing worse than cruelty to a defenceless animal or child.
I can think of a few appropriate punishments.


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## MrBurns (20 July 2013)

Julia said:


> Hideous little s**t.   There's nothing worse than cruelty to a defenceless animal or child.
> I can think of a few appropriate punishments.




I seriously think he needs to be locked up and studied to find out why and not let out again till they get a few answers, it's documented that cruelty to animals leads to serious crimes later.

http://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animals/animal-abuse-and-human-abuse-partners-in-crime.aspx

I abhor cruelty to animals but the repercussions go way beyond the original crime.

Lock them up for research I say.


----------



## MrBurns (19 September 2013)

More scum released to move freely among us.



> Fresh parole order for gang rapist Mohamed Sanoussi
> 
> Sydney gang rapist Mohamed Sanoussi has been granted parole, a fortnight after it was revoked because his brothers were charged over a violent assault.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-19/fresh-parole-order-for-rapist-mohamed-sanoussi/4967684


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## Tink (14 March 2014)

How did 'the system' release Brett Cowan back into society, considering his past? 
Only serving four years?

http://mobile.news.com.au/national/...bout-brett-cowan/story-e6frfkp9-1226852468671


----------



## CanOz (14 March 2014)

Tink said:


> How did 'the system' release Brett Cowan back into society, considering his past?
> Only serving four years?
> 
> http://mobile.news.com.au/national/...bout-brett-cowan/story-e6frfkp9-1226852468671




Seriously!? This guy needs a bullet


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2014)

I just don’t get it. Cowan gets a life sentence with 20 years parole. Why the parole? The guy should be in goal for the rest of his life!

Poor young Daniel does not get parole in 20 years, he does not suddenly live again in 20 years.
Daniel’s family don’t get to live with this tragedy for only 20 years. They all get life!

Cowan snuffs out a life just for a few minutes of sick stimulation. Daniel is dead, what must have gone through his mind when he realised what was happening.

Daniel’s death is a tragic waste. Cowan’s imprisonment for life is not.

This bloke will kill again if he ever he gets out again, irrespective of his good behaviour, psychological courses completed, so called rehabilitation, age etc. etc.

Life sentences should be for life!


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## rumpole (14 March 2014)

dutchie said:


> I just don’t get it. Cowan gets a life sentence with 20 years parole. Why the parole? The guy should be in goal for the rest of his life!
> 
> Poor young Daniel does not get parole in 20 years, he does not suddenly live again in 20 years.
> Daniel’s family don’t get to live with this tragedy for only 20 years. They all get life!
> ...




Cowan also got three years for indecently dealing and 2 years for interfering with a corpse, to be served concurrently. 

If the sentences were fair, they should be served consecutively, otherwise that means that the other two crimes have no meaning.


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## Julia (14 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Seriously!? This guy needs a bullet



So, presumably, do other equally vile abusers who have also assaulted and disposed of children.

Unfortunately, most victims do not receive the extraordinary police resources and continued media attention that have been offered to this one child.

Without in any way wishing to diminish the utter awfulness of this for the Morecambe family, I'm having considerable difficulty in understanding why so many other missing, presumed dead, children are apparently just written off.

Is it a reality that the level of police resources directed at a crime against a child is determined by the amount of public attention that can be garnered?


----------



## rumpole (14 March 2014)

Julia said:


> Is it a reality that the level of police resources directed at a crime against a child is determined by the amount of public attention that can be garnered?




Unfortunately yes.

The creaking door gets the most oil.

There are other equivalents as well.

 Did the hunt for the Jill Meagher killer get more resources because the police knew that the ABC were always going to keep it in the public eye ? Maybe.

I suppose the police may think that if the public doesn't care about a particular victim, why should they ? On the other hand there have been examples of cold cases being solved from long ago where the public forgot they ever happened. It depends how conscientious the police on the case are.


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## McLovin (14 March 2014)

Julia said:
			
		

> Is it a reality that the level of police resources directed at a crime against a child is determined by the amount of public attention that can be garnered?




Yes. Middle class and white will always get more attention because more people can relate to it.

And while this is truly a heartbreaking story, I wouldn't put it at the most serious level of what you see coming out of courts on a regular basis. The little aboriginal girl on the Central Coast of NSW who was pretty much tortured to death by her mother's boyfriend over a period of months has not received anywhere near as much news.

It's a shocking statistic, but about once a fortnight in this country a parent kills their own child.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> I suppose the police may think that if the public doesn't care about a particular victim, why should they ?



What?   That's not reasonable.  For the police every single case of assault against a child should have equal priority.  It's not up to the public to care.  They are not charged with bringing justice for the victim.  The police are.



McLovin said:


> And while this is truly a heartbreaking story, I wouldn't put it at the most serious level of what you see coming out of courts on a regular basis. The little aboriginal girl on the Central Coast of NSW who was pretty much tortured to death by her mother's boyfriend over a period of months has not received anywhere near as much news.
> 
> It's a shocking statistic, but about once a fortnight in this country a parent kills their own child.



Both good examples.


----------



## rumpole (14 March 2014)

Julia said:


> What?   That's not reasonable.  For the police every single case of assault against a child should have equal priority.  It's not up to the public to care.  They are not charged with bringing justice for the victim.  The police are.




Obviously in theory yes. But if you don't have the resources to properly cover every case, what would you do ?


----------



## Julia (14 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Obviously in theory yes. But if you don't have the resources to properly cover every case, what would you do ?



I would attempt to disperse those resources fairly, rather than in response to media and other pressure.


----------



## rumpole (14 March 2014)

Julia said:


> I would attempt to disperse those resources fairly, rather than in response to media and other pressure.




I'm sure it's done that way in some cases, in others people take the path of least resistance. Life sucks sometimes.


----------



## Tink (27 March 2015)

Our disgraceful justice system, how many times do we have to say this?

Last week we had a young girl stabbed to death by a known offender
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...dered-schoolgirl/story-fni0fee2-1227278457868

and now this, more comes to light on Bayley, and how our justice system has failed us.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...stay-behind-bars/story-fni0ffsx-1227280309325

_As Bayley wreaked savagery over more than two decades the justice system ”” including the courts and the Parole Board ”” put his rights ahead of his soon-to-be victims.
With the conclusion of Bayley’s three secret rape trials, the Herald Sun can at last tell Victorians the full extent of how they were betrayed by the justice system.

If the story of how the justice system enabled the very different lives of Jill Meagher and Adrian Bayley to intersect on Sydney Rd, Brunswick in the early hours of September 22, 2012, were an isolated chapter, it would be tragic enough.
But it is not. Rather it is part of a pattern of behaviour from a pro-offender justice system that allows Victorians ”” some of them innocent young women ”” to be brutally attacked and murdered.
Victorians were assured in the wake of Jill Meagher’s murder that the flaws exposed by this shocking crime had been fixed.
Painfully, we have learned that the system remains broken. Victorians are shouting “enough is enough”.

Bayley is now 41. When he was 19, he raped two teenagers, one a family friend and the other a 16-year-old hitchhiker, in separate attacks.
This was when he first started to benefit from the vagaries of the justice system. He served only 22 months of a five-year sentence.
Bayley had already committed the rapes for which he has now been found guilty and was on parole after serving eight years for a series of rapes in St Kilda when he seriously injured a stranger in an unprovoked assault in Geelong.
He was convicted and sentenced to three months’ jail, but once again the system served the offender. Bayley was granted bail when he appealed against the severity of what was a lenient sentence.
The magistrate could and should have refused bail and the Parole Board should have come down hard on this violent abuser.
But Bayley knew how to work the system and he remained free to seek another victim.
Tragically, it was Jill Meagher as she walked home in Brunswick after meeting friends.

There is no excuse for these gross oversights or the ignorance shown by those who should have recognised they were releasing a predator back into the community.
Bayley knew what he was. After murdering Mr Meagher, he said the death penalty should have been kept “for people like me”.
Few might disagree after the gross inadequacies revealed in a justice system that emphasises the rights of the accused and their rehabilitation over the rights of their victims and the families that are left to grieve.
The torment Bayley has caused will never pass for the family of the sweet Irish girl who was walking home in Sydney Rd when this violent abuser found once again that he was free to satisfy his lust instead of contemplating a cruel and callous life back in a jail cell.

There have been changes to the parole system following a review ordered by the Napthine government after a Herald Sun investigation revealed other violent prisoners released on parole had committed murders.
Like Bayley, some should have been put back behind bars for parole breaches; instead, they remained free to kill.
There were other failures that might have assisted Bayley. As police were closing in on him for the Meagher murder, he received a warning from someone in the parole system that he was a suspect.
There is also a belief that DNA evidence taken from Bayley after a rape in 2001 had gone missing or was never recorded on a database.

All these systemic and behavioural failures will alarm decent, law-abiding people. There has been a monster in their midst who was protected by the inadequacies of a justice system meant to protect the community; especially the women whom Bayley preyed upon for more than 20 years.
IT has not always been Bayley’s cunning as a sexual predator that has allowed him to escape the full force of the law.
It has been the breakdown of a system that must also take responsibility for what he has done.
The proceedings in Bayley’s rape trials this year were suppressed so as not to influence subsequent juries. Only now that he faces no further charges have these orders been lifted.

The evidence given by his victims was chilling. Sex workers picked up by Bayley in his car said they found themselves trapped when he pulled up against a fence. They said they were punched and then raped while unable to flee.
Bayley’s defence was that he was the victim of mistaken identity, but the women he attacked said they would never forget his face.
The proof that justice authorities have learnt by their mistakes will be shown by how they intend to protect the community in the light of these failures.
The daily slew of suppression orders imposed by courts is a public injustice.
Victorians have a right to know what is happening in the courts. The tendency to secrecy is a public disgrace.
Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. It is hoped the sentences for the three rapes for which Bayley has been convicted will add to the time he spends in jail.

Even he says: “They should never have let me out.’’_


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## Tink (25 November 2016)

With the ongoing carjackings and home invasions - 

*Crime in Melbourne: Bailed twice in a fortnight, teen stabs off duty cop in home invasion*



> Earlier, Sen-Constable Yeoman said he was lucky to be alive but was furious the alleged offender was already given bail.
> 
> Sen-Constable Daniel Yeoman, who underwent surgery after sustaining a broken eye socket and severed nerve in his head, has told of the encounter with an accused teen who was twice bailed in a fortnight.
> 
> ...




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...t/news-story/68b6c9206c4ef56d75f9d673ee3b7f80
-------------------------------------------

Victorian Government's decision to send youth rioters to adult prison to be challenged in court

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-...t-prison-to-be-challenged/8050922?section=vic

Melbourne youth jail riots bill hits $10 million 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...s/news-story/4e63beda61c5b93109578c65115299e0


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## dutchie (2 December 2016)

African Apex gang member 'stole an elderly couple's BMW as they were strapping in their baby granddaughter - before arming himself and stealing $25,000 worth of cigarettes'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-arming-stealing-25-000-worth-cigarettes.html

No doubt he will be slapped over *both* wrists for this.


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## MrBurns (27 January 2017)

We should have elections every 2 years, this incompetent bastard is there until next year sometime..........


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## dutchie (10 April 2017)

Immigrant who raped woman after breaking into her home should have been deported two years earlier after racking up 400 convictions - but tribunal gave him 'one last chance'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fford-raped-woman-deportation-overturned.html

The Administrative Appeals Tribunal must take responsibility for this rape. I wonder how the members would feel if it was their mother, wife or daughter.
Disgraceful, heads should roll!


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## MrBurns (10 April 2017)

I'm absolutely fed up with "the system" but no one seems to give a damn and do anything about it.


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## SirRumpole (10 April 2017)

dutchie said:


> Immigrant who raped woman after breaking into her home should have been deported two years earlier after racking up 400 convictions - but tribunal gave him 'one last chance'
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fford-raped-woman-deportation-overturned.html
> 
> ...




The AAT should only be available to Australian Citizens. We need to be able to deport all the nasties that we can. This is a shocking case of a shark slipping through the net.


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## Tisme (11 April 2017)

dutchie said:


> Immigrant who raped woman after breaking into her home should have been deported two years earlier after racking up 400 convictions - but tribunal gave him 'one last chance'
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fford-raped-woman-deportation-overturned.html
> 
> ...




 The real question is why the decision was made. There are suburbs upon suburbs here in Brisbane with intinerent kiwi and islander populations with nothing better to do than anti social behaviours, many with criminal records  ....why are they here?


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## SirRumpole (11 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> The real question is why the decision was made. There are suburbs upon suburbs here in Brisbane with intinerent kiwi and islander populations with nothing better to do than anti social behaviours, many with criminal records  ....why are they here?




If they are not going to deport someone with 400 convictions, no wonder we are a Disneyland for migrant crime.


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## dutchie (12 June 2017)

Another pathetic judicial decision.

Violent teens who robbed IMP Jewellery in Toorak escape jail sentence.

THREE teenagers who carried out a terrifying armed robbery, snatching $100,000 worth of jewellery, have avoided being locked up, angering the industry and Victoria’s police union.

Victoria has suffered a wave of similar violent crimes, and the industry now fears the Children’s Court sentence might embolden gangs of young bandits to strike again.

The judge rejected prosecution arguments for a custodial sentence, imposing 18-month youth supervision orders on the trio, who pleaded guilty.

The maximum sentence available in the Children’s Court is three years’ youth detention. In an adult court, the maximum penalty for armed robbery is 25 years in prison.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...e/news-story/7c3c44f518ad7e8c9adab509477d3ec8


Judges are so out of touch.


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## MrBurns (12 June 2017)

This goes on every day in Victoria, people are starting to arm themselves as the Govt and Judiciary are incompetent.


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## explod (12 June 2017)

To a desperate sentencing/penalty is the last thing on the mind. 

The only way to decrease crime (you'll never completely wipe it out)  is through proper education,  example and the provision of a reasonable life path for everyone. A person's future is set in the first five years of life so the responsibity for crime rests with parents and the community.


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## MrBurns (12 June 2017)

Lots of luck with that, however in the meantime we need to protect people instead of releasing every creep on bail or early parole.
The low life who killed the woman with his monkey bike got 4 years, where's the justice in that.


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## Tisme (14 June 2017)

*"Brandis grants parole to terror plotter"*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...r/news-story/96e5010e695761dd64eeb5ac59330a0f


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## Tink (15 June 2017)

*Three Victorian Turnbull government ministers face contempt charges*
_
Three Victorian Turnbull government ministers will be forced to explain to the Supreme Court why they should not be charged with contempt after accusing the state’s judiciary of being soft on terror sentencing.

It’s understood the Supreme Court has ordered Health Minister Greg Hunt, Human Services Minister Alan Tudge and Assistant Minister to the Treasurer, Michael Sukkar, to appear on Friday to justify why they should not “be referred for prosecution for contempt”.

The Herald Sun has been told a letter from Judicial Registrar Ian Irving has been sent to the MPs regarding comments published in the The Australian accusing the judiciary of going soft on terrorists.

“The attributed statements appear to intend to bring the Court into disrepute, to assert the judges have and will apply an ideologically based predisposition in deciding the case or cases and that the judges will not apply the law,” the letter said.

The three ministers accused the Victorian judiciary of handing down lighter sentences for terrorists.

It’s understood the comments were seen by the court as relating to an appeal by the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions which challenged a seven-and-a-half-year non-parole sentence imposed in 2016 on Sevdet Ramadan Besim.

Besim pleaded guilty to planning to behead a police officer on Anzac Day in 2015.

The Court of Appeal is yet to deliver its judgments on the cases.

Prominent Melbourne criminal defence lawyer Rob Stary said yesterday he had lodged a formal complaint to the Commonwealth prosecutors about the ministers’ comments.

Mr Stary said the judiciary must be “free from political interference” and the ministers should resign or stand down.

The Judicial Conference of Australia condemned their conduct as “grossly improper and unfair”.

Both Mr Hunt and Mr Tudge stood by their comments when asked on Tuesday._

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/dc6ab22549a08f3258a20d2851781470

----------------------------------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6


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## sptrawler (20 July 2017)

Well here is sentencing in W.A

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/meth...for-bashing-truckie-with-hammer-ng-b88542548z

Six years, possibly out in four years, you are a really naughty boy.


https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/murder-suspect-driven-by-anger-ng-b88541778z

A chance run in with police two weeks ago, triggered his crime spree, naughty police for pulling him over.


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## sptrawler (21 July 2017)

The persons motorcycle was stolen, he saw the motorcycle being ridden down a track and gave chase.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/driv...ury-after-elijah-doughtys-death-ng-b88542478z

The outcome will be interesting.


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## dutchie (5 January 2018)

Judge Lex Lasry dines out on Peter Dutton gang anxiety
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...y/news-story/c9c60b065fde9572e782671eb3c57b2b


"Victorian Supreme Court judge Lex Lasry has mocked Peter Dutton’s claim that Melbourne’s gang violence had made residents too scared to go out at night, sparking a rebuke from the Home Affairs Minister.

After Mr Dutton made the comments on Sydney radio on Wednesday, Justice Lasry slammed the comments as ill-informed, and ridiculed the minister on Twitter. “Breaking: there are citizens out to dinner in Mansfield tonight and they’re not worried,” he tweeted on Wednesday evening, referring to the Victorian alpine town he regularly visits."

Shows how out of touch the Judiciary is.
Comparing alpine country town to Melbourne.
Lasry is a joke. How do these people become judges?????


----------



## dutchie (5 January 2018)

When will it end? More than a dozen African thugs wreak havoc in Melbourne's west overnight – 'assaulting two teenage boys on the street before terrorising a woman in a violent home invasion'


*A gang of African appearance has caused havoc in Melbourne's west overnight*
*A woman, 59, was struck in the face and her home ransacked by up to 14 males*
*Two teenagers were attacked in separate earlier incidents in nearby suburbs*
*Offenders later staged another home invasion but fled from armed occupants*
*The rampage is the latest in a series of violent crimes attributed to African gangs *

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ld-Melbourne-crime-rampage.html#ixzz53IZoxRh2 

No people eating at restaurants in Melbourne were affected by the violence.


----------



## Tisme (5 January 2018)

dutchie said:


> When will it end?.




When they hand over the keys of the country to them and every other resident who gets special treatment and kid gloves on a daily basis.... which eliminates most generational Australians.


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> When they hand over the keys of the country to them and every other resident who gets special treatment and kid gloves on a daily basis.... which eliminates most generational Australians.




It really doesn't make sense. 

So the First Fleet, and a few more after, weren't exactly treating the original owner with kids gloves. Thye kinda did take the keys and them whoever's left outback. BUT...

But for some reason, today's generations of First Fleeters would just hand the keys over to a bunch of brown people and decided to treat them with kids gloves?

It's either the inbreeding has made the pioneers' descendants weak, or we're being fed this horse crap so that wars on this and that other thing needs to be fought and faults need to be blamed. And who better to blame them on than a bunch of new arrivals barely able to speak any English.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2018)

luutzu said:


> And who better to blame them on than a bunch of new arrivals barely able to speak any English.




African gangs are being blamed for the trouble they cause, ie their own misdeeds. What's wrong with that ? 

What else are we trying to blame them for ?


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> African gangs are being blamed for the trouble they cause, ie their own misdeeds. What's wrong with that ?
> 
> What else are we trying to blame them for ?




I wasn't referring to the article, just directly at Tisme's comment.

And if it's a gang, it's a gang. Blame them and take them to court. No need for race or ethnic origin. 

There are law-abiding citizens and then there's criminals. They come in all shapes, sizes and skin colour.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2018)

luutzu said:


> I to court. No need for race or ethnic origin.
> 
> There are law-abiding citizens and then there's criminals. They come in all shapes, sizes and skin colour.




Statistically you might be surprised at the per 100,000 offenders based on ethnicity.


----------



## luutzu (6 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> Statistically you might be surprised at the per 100,000 offenders based on ethnicity.




Ethnicity might be what's recorded, but that does not evidenced causation. 

(parents) Income Tax bracket is a better indicator. Not saying that poverty-stricken parents make bad parents, but in general, kids from low socio-economic backgrounds tend to mix with the wrong crowds and like to steal stuff instead of asking their parents for money for them.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2018)

luutzu said:


> Ethnicity might be what's recorded, but that does not evidenced causation.
> 
> (parents) Income Tax bracket is a better indicator. Not saying that poverty-stricken parents make bad parents, but in general, kids from low socio-economic backgrounds tend to mix with the wrong crowds and like to steal stuff instead of asking their parents for money for them.




I'll disagree on that one. Elephants and Gorillas in the room reveal the truth.


----------



## Tisme (8 January 2018)




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## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

Until the penal system becomes a penalty, why would anyone who feels they have nothing to lose, stop committing crimes?

https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/m...-marketplace-has-her-bmw-stolen-ng-b88772173z

If the worst that can happen, is you get sent to jail with a warm bed and three meals a day, and the best that happens is you get to take a BMW for a spin, I wonder what the deterrent is?


----------



## SirRumpole (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Until the penal system becomes a penalty, why would anyone who feels they have nothing to lose, stop committing crimes?
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/m...-marketplace-has-her-bmw-stolen-ng-b88772173z
> 
> If the worst that can happen, is you get sent to jail with a warm bed and three meals a day, and the best that happens is you get to take a BMW for a spin, I wonder what the deterrent is?




What happened to hard labour ?

Measure sentences by work targets not time.


----------



## Junior (13 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Statistically you might be surprised at the per 100,000 offenders based on ethnicity.




Please share your data.


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

Junior said:


> Please share your data.




  Well I would, but I suspect that is a loaded request given your hostility to anything I post n'est pas?

So I'll let you trawl through the ABS and State Govt data all by yourself to prove me wrong i.e. that "you might be surprised".

Here's a snapshot of 2016 UK so you can proclaim a foul ball:

Prosecution rate relative to the population was highest for Black juveniles (12 juveniles per 1,000 people in the population), followed by Mixed (4 per 1,000), Chinese or Other (2 per 1,000) and White (2 per 1,000) and Asian (2 per 1,000).

The proportion of the prison population varied greatly between ethnic groups: there were around 16 prisoners for every 10,000 people in England and Wales, similar to the White and Asian rates, but this includes only 5 prisoners for each 10,000 Chinese or Other population members, and 47 and 58 prisoners for each 10,000 Mixed and Black population members respectively.

In 2016, Black and Mixed defendants were 23% and 18% more likely than White defendants to be remanded in custody in Crown Court for indictable offences.

Prosecutions Relative to the population, the rates of prosecution for indictable offences for Black and Mixed ethnic groups were four and two times higher than for the White ethnic group. For every 1,000 population members, 16 Black and 9 Mixed defendants were prosecuted compared to 4 White defendants.

held to higher account :

White defendants have consistently had the highest conviction ratio for indictable offences out of all ethnic groups since 2012 (ranging from 80% to 86%), with the exception of Chinese or Other in 2015 (84%). The Relative Rate Index indicates there is a statistically significant disparity in the rates at which defendants from non-White ethnic groups are convicted when compared to White defendants.


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## Junior (13 March 2018)

Tisme, not a loaded request in this instance, I am interested in these stats and I don't doubt that some ethnic groups have higher instances of criminal activity per capita than others.


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## Tisme (13 March 2018)

Junior said:


> Tisme, not a loaded request in this instance, I am interested in these stats and I don't doubt that some ethnic groups have higher instances of criminal activity per capita than others.





here's one :

https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/offences-by-nationality/

here's another:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.../4517.0~2014~Main Features~Country of birth~7


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## dutchie (16 May 2018)

This is a disgrace. The judge should go to jail for six months.
I really can't understand why ambulance and paramedics personnel are attacked when they attend events to help.
*Furious ambulance workers protest decision to NOT jail two women who brutally bashed an elderly paramedic by graffiting their own vehicles as the victim says he is 'disgusted by the outcome'*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ria-protest-court-decision.html#ixzz5FbBEtWqF


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## SirRumpole (16 May 2018)

dutchie said:


> This is a disgrace. The judge should go to jail for six months.
> I really can't understand why ambulance and paramedics personnel are attacked when they attend events to help.
> *Furious ambulance workers protest decision to NOT jail two women who brutally bashed an elderly paramedic by graffiting their own vehicles as the victim says he is 'disgusted by the outcome'*
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ria-protest-court-decision.html#ixzz5FbBEtWqF




They should have gone to gaol for a year at least.

Pathetic.


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## dutchie (16 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They should have gone to gaol for a year at least.
> 
> Pathetic.




The theory.......

"Victorian laws introduced in 2014 demand a *mandatory* minimum jail term of six months for anyone who intentionally injures an emergency worker, unless there are special circumstances. "

But not the weak judicial practise.

(My bolds)


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## PZ99 (16 May 2018)

If they'd assaulted a copper they would've had the book thrown at them.

But because it was a paramedic they got off.

So that's the disgrace right there.


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## Darc Knight (16 May 2018)

dutchie said:


> The theory.......
> 
> "Victorian laws introduced in 2014 demand a *mandatory* minimum jail term of six months for anyone who intentionally injures an emergency worker, unless there are special circumstances. "
> 
> ...




QLD has zero tolerance for assaults on emergency workers. The Police don't need it here, they'll just bash the crap out of you in the Gold Coast watch house carpark lol.

Saw an Ambulance driver.driving with his iPhone in one hand, earphones in and doing whatever on it the other day. If he had of rear ended me I might have been facing those mandatory sentencing laws!


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## dutchie (16 May 2018)

PZ99 said:


> If they'd assaulted a copper they would've had the book thrown at them.



Regretably, that's not the case.

https://www.3aw.com.au/police-union...g-who-brutally-bashed-police-woman-walk-free/

The Police Association has slammed the courts for allowing an ice-addicted thug to walk free on a community corrections order, after bashing a female police officer.

As reported in the Herald Sun, a 29-year-old Senior Constable has undergone reconstructive surgery and is unable to return to the force following the attack in April.

The officer was making an arrest in Glenroy when she was repeatedly hit in the face, the impact of the blows causing her teeth to puncture her lip.

Charges were dropped against Ahmed El Lababidi, 26, after it was argued there were exceptional circumstances in his case, due to mental illness.

*Sergeant Wayne Gatt told Tony Jones his members are at a loss at the light sentencing being handed out by the courts.*

“We just don’t get it Tony,” he said.

“We see this time and time again, we see mental illness used as an excuse.

“If we allow them to do this to us we’re effectively green lighting crime in Victoria.”

(my *bolds*)


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## PZ99 (16 May 2018)

Thanks for that. It's an exception to what I see around here in West Sydney. You only have to wobble your hands within 2 feet of a copper and you're done for resisting arrest.

Anyway, seems the Vic Govt want to close that loophole > http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...s/news-story/3c927f7d8c456d1a51e7bfcd4092e23e


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## dutchie (16 May 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Thanks for that. It's an exception to what I see around here in West Sydney. You only have to wobble your hands within 2 feet of a copper and you're done for resisting arrest.



Did not know that. Good to see that type of response.



PZ99 said:


> Anyway, seems the Vic Govt want to close that loophole > http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...s/news-story/3c927f7d8c456d1a51e7bfcd4092e23e



Obviously if you made a mandatory law you would make sure there were no loopholes.
The person who drafted the law originally needs to be demoted.


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## Tisme (17 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They should have gone to gaol for a year at least.
> 
> Pathetic.




Think of the inmates



> Greg Golds‎Triple Zero Tolerance
> 17 hrs ·
> 
> 
> ...


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## moXJO (17 May 2018)

Victoria..... No surprises there.


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## Knobby22 (17 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> Victoria..... No surprises there.



Victoria the nanny state.


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## noirua (29 May 2018)

*Child sex abuse case leaves emotional Ray Hadley struggling to speak*
*“How can you get a benefit for pleading guilty, when the only reason you pleaded guilty was because he couldn’t have beaten the rap? There was recorded evidence of his admission,” Hadley shouted on air. He also alleged that the perpetrator of the abuse had previously been jailed for offences against other young children.
https://startsat60.com/news/crime/child-sexual-abuse-case-emotional-ray-hadley-speechless-2gb*


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## SirRumpole (12 July 2018)

This person is an Islamic State sympathiser.

She should be in gaol not loose in the community.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...to-community-service-for-not-standing/9980002


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## MrBurns (12 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> This person is an Islamic State sympathiser.
> 
> She should be in gaol not loose in the community.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...to-community-service-for-not-standing/9980002




Yes I saw that , it's disgraceful, she should be deported, it's another example of Australia the stupid country.


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## Junior (12 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> This person is an Islamic State sympathiser.
> 
> She should be in gaol not loose in the community.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...to-community-service-for-not-standing/9980002




 The average prisoner costs taxpayers >$100k a year.  She should be deported.


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2022)

Queensland to introduce more severe criminal penalties for young offenders in wake of Emma Lovell's stabbing at North Lakes​
But still there are bleeding hearts who say the perpetrators need the help., not the victims.









						Emma Lovell's death sparks Queensland's 'most comprehensive' response to youth crime
					

The new measures target young offenders in particular, with sentencing to take into account their previous criminal activity and bail history.




					www.abc.net.au


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## farmerge (30 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Queensland to introduce more severe criminal penalties for young offenders in wake of Emma Lovell's stabbing at North Lakes​
> But still there are bleeding hearts who say the perpetrators need the help., not the victims.
> 
> 
> ...



Afternoon Sir R It is to be hoped that the criminal justice system that is prevalent in our houses of detention will mete out the appropriate corporal punishment that these oxygen thieves deserve.

Some years ago we visited the now defunct Fremantle Prison as visitors. Our guide was a former guest of the State, there for some years. When we got to the creton, Beirnes cells (he had  3).,he told us how the internal system dealt with him, an evil child murder. A piece of electrical conduct and a length of Iowa barb wire. I leave the rest up to your imagination.


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## farmerge (30 December 2022)

I feel that those supposedly wise people who sit elevated in a court room should be brought to account for sub-standard and lenient sentences being handed down. Who would want to be a police officer when a slap on the wrist is more so than not given out to the perpetrators


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## Smurf1976 (31 December 2022)

farmerge said:


> I feel that those supposedly wise people who sit elevated in a court room should be brought to account for sub-standard and lenient sentences being handed down. Who would want to be a police officer when a slap on the wrist is more so than not given out to the perpetrators



As a practical observation, consider safety in a workplace (or anywhere similar - eg a retail shop with customers inside).

If the PCBU* knows, or ought to know, that a situation exists which, had luck been different, could have injured or killed someone then they'll have the proverbial book thrown at them if they don't take proper measures, immediately, to remove that danger. That means proper procedures or modifications signed off by someone professionally competent to do so not just random guesses or improvised measures.

*PCBU = Person Conducting a Business Undertaking. That's the legal term for it.

Should the same approach not apply to the courts?

If someone's done something which shows them to be a danger, eg they've threatened someone with a knife, then should there not be an onus placed on the judge to obtain evidence, from a suitably qualified person, that they have in fact been rehabilitated before any release is considered?

There's a double standard here is there not? We've got judges taking a rather laid back approach that they themselves would punish harshly if anyone else took the same attitude and it ended up killing someone.


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## sptrawler (31 December 2022)

Spot on @Smurf1976 one of the offenders apparently had stabbed someone one year earlier, so it isn't as though he has changed his behaviour. I wonder how long he will get this time?









						Teen accused of murdering Queensland mum involved in previous stabbing, home invasion
					

"[I] could have been in the same position": 2021 victim speaks of his frustration.




					www.nzherald.co.nz
				




One of the two teens accused of the murder of Brisbane mum Emma Lovell stabbed another man in a separate home invasion last year, it has been revealed.


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## farmerge (31 December 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a practical observation, consider safety in a workplace (or anywhere similar - eg a retail shop with customers inside).
> 
> If the PCBU* knows, or ought to know, that a situation exists which, had luck been different, could have injured or killed someone then they'll have the proverbial book thrown at them if they don't take proper measures, immediately, to remove that danger. That means proper procedures or modifications signed off by someone professionally competent to do so not just random guesses or improvised measures.
> 
> ...



Perhaps if a judges family was impacted with what happed to the Qld family the resulting action would NOT be a slap on the wrist or a lenient sentence


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