# The GFC Continues... Read On



## Slipperz (15 November 2010)

Great article from the Rolling stone.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/232611?RS_show_page=0


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## Synergy (15 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

Good old US of A

The more I hear about them, the more certain I am that they'll once again manage to bring the world undone with their dodgy ways.

Sadly, along with that certainty goes a fairly deep disliking for the country as a whole. Sad really.

Very good reading though. I like the guys writing style.


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## Slipperz (15 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



Synergy said:


> Good old US of A
> 
> The more I hear about them, the more certain I am that they'll once again manage to bring the world undone with their dodgy ways.
> 
> ...




Yes it is a well written no bull**** this is what's really happening here piece.

That's the worst part about the whole thing... it rings true


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## basilio (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

It's midnight and I just finished reading the Rolling Stone story........ on what is one of the most stinking, corrupt scam of all time.  (but perhaps I've been a little understated here.)

I did know that much of what has happened in the home loan crisis of America stank. I just didn't appreciate how utterly criminal  the banks seem to have been and how this criminal behavior is still happening *and being supported by the states.*

I'm going to flick it on to some friends. Really hope other members on this forum take the time to read it, digest it, and wonder exactly what sort of financial system we have. The fact is if the big end of town is getting away with such criminal  activity now  i*n what universe will our interests be protected if/when all the financial balls hit the ground ?*

Perhaps it's a story some of our political leaders should read and be asked to comment on?


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## basilio (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

Just for interest... As you go through the above article in Rolling Stone there are a number of links to other stories by the writer about the financial  chicanery that is now America.

Breathtakingly scary..:

I just can't see how this will have a remote chance of a happy ending and how we can escape the  fallout..


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

Just give it time, CBA/NAB/Westpac & ANZ will be doing this soon


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## professor_frink (16 November 2010)

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nukz said:


> Just give it time, CBA/NAB/Westpac & ANZ will be doing this soon




how do you come to that conclusion?


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



professor_frink said:


> how do you come to that conclusion?




Well they are there to serve shareholders despite the populist opinion that the single mum's battling with mortgage/loan repayments are the ones who need attention. 

This practise is to some extent already being used by ANZ and i forgot the other bank that use debt collectors who constantly call up debtor's and make threats to expose the financial situation of the individuals to family, friends ect.

This along with figures presented last night showing lending is at a 5 year low right now, this leads me to think either people are saving all of a sudden(i think some are but not as a whole we are not) or we are maxed out on credit. 

Without going to much into the figures ect, i don't really believe the question is how i come to this conclusion but rather do you think they would do it any other way? they need to make profits for shareholders and are not a charity organisation.


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

I should also say i didn't mean to 'hijack' this thread or anything but some people seem to think that "it's different here" and this sort of thing would never happen in Australia. 

I simply wanted to make a statement rather than starting a whole conversation about what i said, but are more than happy to explain why i said what i did


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## albaby (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*

great article slipperz thanks for the link


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## professor_frink (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



nukz said:


> Well they are there to serve shareholders despite the populist opinion that the single mum's battling with mortgage/loan repayments are the ones who need attention.
> 
> This practise is to some extent already being used by ANZ and i forgot the other bank that use debt collectors who constantly call up debtor's and make threats to expose the financial situation of the individuals to family, friends ect.
> 
> ...




maybe you should have read the article before commenting


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



professor_frink said:


> maybe you should have read the article before commenting




Okay i didn't realise it was more than one page haha  You still didn't respond to my comments though, rather prompting me to read further so i'll assume that's an acknowledgement of my previous post


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## professor_frink (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



nukz said:


> Okay i didn't realise it was more than one page haha  You still didn't respond to my comments though, rather prompting me to read further so i'll assume that's an acknowledgement of my previous post




not at all.

You said:



> This practise is to some extent already being used by ANZ





Can't say I've heard of any of our banks engaging in robo signing and fraudulant foreclosure practices. Feel free to enlighten me though!


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## Logique (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



Slipperz said:


> Great article from the Rolling stone.
> http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/232611?RS_show_page=0



What a bunch of shameless crooks. Thanks Slipperz


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## basilio (16 November 2010)

*Re: The GFC Continues ...Read On*



> Can't say I've heard of any of our banks engaging in robo signing and fraudulant foreclosure practices. Feel free to enlighten me though!
> professor_frink is offline Report Post   	Reply With Quote




It's true that Australia banks have not  undertaken the types and extent of systemic fraud that has happened in America. I still believe there is cause for concern on a number of fronts

1) A collapse in the American financial system can only be bad news for us. Obviously....

2) We already know that many local  institutions bought the poison debt packages sold by  Morgam Sahs ect. So we have already seen a direct financial hit

3) I think the quality and creditworthiness of many housing loans made in the Australian housing market is suspect. In  particular many mortgage brokers have been creative with their clients income figures to get the loans past the banks (and get their commissions) and the banks have not looked closely because they don't want to find holes. Everyone is believing that the rise in housing values will protect their **** if the loan holder falls over.

4) There has been a very big rise in peoples other  debts  apart from housing. This makes their financial situation even more precarious and of course the risk to the economy heightens  if there is any sort of slowdown

5) And finally on almost any analysis the Australian housing market is overpriced. This is putting extreme pressure on would be borrowers while increases in interest rates is screwing those already  stretched to the limit.

Steve Keens anlaysis in Debt watch is an eyeopener on the rise and make up of Australian debt levels. I suggest the role of financial institutions in encouraging this situation will be a factor in the inevitable  contraction/collapse.

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/

________________________________________________________________

Inside Steve Keens ebt blog there is a detailed recent review of the role of the banks in pushing more and poorer quality debt onto people. It's written on 9th November.
*
More competition or less debt?
Posted on November 9, 2010 by Steve Keen*_

As usual, I’ll be putting an argument that is contrary to popular opinion on the need for more competition I the banking sector. So to clarify the issue, here’s a quick poll: who thinks that Australia doesn’t have enough debt?

Nobody? OK, now let’s discuss the “need” for more competition in the banking sector.

The raging debate is missing the point–Hockey and the Coalition are right to go after the banks, but they’ve made a mistake in suggesting that the sector’s ills would be cured by more competition. In fact, we allowed too much competition in the 1980s, and again in the 1990s. The outcome, both times, was too much debt—firstly for businesses, and then for households. That’s the sector’s real problem, and adding a third dose of competition won’t fix it_.


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## Julia (16 November 2010)

nukz said:


> This practise is to some extent already being used by ANZ and i forgot the other bank that use debt collectors who constantly call up debtor's and make threats to expose the financial situation of the individuals to family, friends ect.



That is a serious accusation toward ANZ and the 'other bank you conveniently can't remember'.
If you are alleging something like this, you need to put up some proof.


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

Julia said:


> That is a serious accusation toward ANZ and the 'other bank you conveniently can't remember'.
> If you are alleging something like this, you need to put up some proof.




http://www.smh.com.au/business/bank-debt-collectors-seizing-cash-illegally-20100913-159bj.html

http://www.smh.com.au/business/debt-collector-reveals-harassment-techniques-20100914-15axg.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/26/2909648.htm

http://www.debtcollectionletter.com.au/uncategorized/anz-debt-collectors-caught-out/

http://www.investsmart.com.au/news/news.asp?Action=Display&DocID=AGE100914QM6JDCHSIEQ

http://www.liquidationdirect.com.au/blog/general/bank-debt-collectors-seizing-cash-illegally/

Hopefully this will assist you Julia.

It was actually ANZ and NAB, it was not conveniantly forgotten now lets get to you Julia since your possibly a ANZ employee.. ohh wait a second thats a assumption just like you made 

See what i did there?


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## SmellyTerror (16 November 2010)

You know that the article was about US financial institutions literally breaking the law, blatantly and repeatedy on a massive scale. Right? Forging documentation, breaching contractual obligations, tax fraud, destroying evidence, perverting of the course of justice, all with the apparent collusion of the authorities. Intentionally pressuring hundreds of thousands of people to, in effect, destroy themselves financially in what the institutions themselves knew were doomed loans.

And you're, what? Accusing ANZ of being _mean_?

C'mon man, RTFA.


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## nukz (16 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> You know that the article was about US financial institutions literally breaking the law, blatantly and repeatedy on a massive scale. Right? Forging documentation, breaching contractual obligations, tax fraud, destroying evidence, perverting of the course of justice, all with the apparent collusion of the authorities. Intentionally pressuring hundreds of thousands of people to, in effect, destroy themselves financially in what the institutions themselves knew were doomed loans.
> 
> And you're, what? Accusing ANZ of being _mean_?
> 
> C'mon man, RTFA.




Well some practices they have undertaken where considered illegal but you might consider them mean i just go by the law not personal opinion. 

I think you will probably find while things are good and everything's fine you won't find many complaints, but when things turn sour that's when all the truth comes out like we have seen in the US.

You remember seeing any of this sort of thing in the media in 2004-2006 in the US？besides the odd few people.


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## SmellyTerror (16 November 2010)

I will answer with a movie quote:

_It ain't the same ****in' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same ****in' sport._

------
Another side of the US housing situation: the shadow inventory.

http://exiledonline.com/depression-pr0n-gaming-the-real-estate-market/all/1/

...and whatever their commie background, the Exiled dudes are good gonzos. That's from June of last year.

I have no idea if all of this is true, mind. I don't know squat. But I can say I'm glad to be moving over to nice safe currency scalping. Buy-and-hold scares the crap out of me.


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## moXJO (16 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> I will answer with a movie quote:
> 
> _It ain't the same ****in' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same ****in' sport._
> 
> ...




Greed is greed
To think we could never achieve the same amount is naive. Look at the batts scheme and how many people ripped that off and actually killed people. I know it’s not the banks, but give people enough rope and they will hang themselves for a buck.


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## SmellyTerror (16 November 2010)

If you think the chicken-ante fudging of the Australian banks comes anywhere near the allegations being levelled at US industry and government in the article, then... Well, I'm not sure what to say. Read it again?

---
And actually, re: batts scheme, that industry was always shonky, and the (idiotic) injection of cash actually apparently made it SAFER.

Before the scheme: average of 85 fires per year coming from 65000 insulation installs. That's one fire for every 765 installs.

From the scheme there were 1.21 million installs, and 197 fires. That's only one fire for every 6142 installs.

The difference was that the states (the folk actually responsible for workplace health and safety) crapped themselves when the dump-truck of money got thrown to a bunch of shonks, and the finally introduced some regulation.

...regulation is also the difference between Oz and the US banking systems, far as I can see. 'Course, that opinion is formed entirely from hearing muppets on TV say those words, and whenever they say something I actually know anything about, they're wrong....

So /shrug, I guess.


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## Julia (16 November 2010)

nukz said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/business/bank-debt-collectors-seizing-cash-illegally-20100913-159bj.html
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/debt-collector-reveals-harassment-techniques-20100914-15axg.html
> 
> ...



Thank you for the links.  Wouldn't it have been simpler to have just included these with your original assertion?
The allegations against ANZ do sound, um, as though they are being less than understanding.  However, let's remember they are running a business and are entitled to follow up bad debts.  We are only hearing one side of the story.  Isn't it likely the customers concerned are serial defaulters, perhaps?

And it rather sounds as though (from my quick skimming of the articles) the shonky behaviour is due to the unpleasant and overzealous attitudes of some individuals than necessarily overall bank policy.



> It was actually ANZ and NAB, it was not conveniantly forgotten now lets get to you Julia since your possibly a ANZ employee.. ohh wait a second thats a assumption just like you made
> 
> See what i did there?



Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not employed by anyone.  I support myself.
I have no interest especially in ANZ and do not even own any of their shares.

I'm just opposed to unsupported allegations being posted on the internet, especially such as:







> use debt collectors who constantly call up debtor's and make threats to expose the financial situation of the individuals to family, friends ect.



I didn't see any reference in any of your links to what effectively would be blackmail, so are you not rather stretching your bank bashing here?


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## financialdonk (17 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> If you think the chicken-ante fudging of the Australian banks comes anywhere near the allegations being levelled at US industry and government in the article, then... Well, I'm not sure what to say. Read it again?




You're doing a great job of missing Nukz's point.  Things are OK atm in Australia but if begins to go downhill then morals/business principles could very well go out the window ala what has occured in the US.  I don't think Nutz is saying that it will happen here only that we as a society should keep a very critical eye on institutions likely to act erroneously if they have over extended themselves.


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## SmellyTerror (18 November 2010)

financialdonk said:


> You're doing a great job of missing Nukz's point.  Things are OK atm in Australia but if begins to go downhill then morals/business principles could very well go out the window ala what has occured in the US.  I don't think Nutz is saying that it will happen here only that we as a society should keep a very critical eye on institutions likely to act erroneously if they have over extended themselves.




1. He said: "This practise is to some extent already being used by ANZ ..."

He has continued to defend that position - but his examples are of them doing stuff that is not remotely similar to the systematic fraud that the article is discussing.

2. I argue that it cannot happen here because we have far tighter regulation, and our political and legal systems are not remotely as corrupt (assuming the allegations levelled in the article are true).

I put zero weight on morals when it comes to corporate behaviour. People who think companies (in general, at least) would baulk at profitable behaviour that was immoral, without legislation and oversight to prevent them, are living in a fairy tale land where the economy is driven by the rainbows that come from unicorns' backsides.

If it has not happened here, it is because it can't. If our mob could get away with such blatant fraud, they would. Now. Today.

If they haven't - and I see no evidence that they have - it is because they cannot. This will not change unless Australia engages in massive deregulation, as well as fundamental changes in the way our legal system operates.


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