# Ukraine War



## Knobby22 (25 February 2022)

Putin has bluffed the west and now is going to conquer Ukraine and set it up as a client state unless he is stopped.

Europe has been weak, Ukraine asked to join NATO a couple of years ago and were refused to appease Russia.
What should happen now?

The west are trying to fight bullets with dollars.
In my opinion they need to physically act to defend Ukraine.
Germany instead of providing 5000 helmets should send in the air force. The UK should send their fleet over to the borders of Russia in the north.

The USA and Poland should send in some troops for "peace keeping purposes" which are stationed nearby. France, Italy etc  should send in forces to other neighbouring countries for protection.

Send in the fleets to attack Crimea.

Let the Russian troops know that its going to be hard and they can't get away with this.


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## wayneL (25 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Putin has bluffed the west and now is going to conquer Ukraine and set it up as a client state unless he is stopped.
> 
> Europe has been weak, Ukraine asked to join NATO a couple of years ago and were refused to appease Russia.
> What should happen now?
> ...



IMO if the west should do that, skip that step and just go straight for the red button, because that's where it will end up.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

Or... it's probably already too late for action without mass casualties. The most that will happen is sanctions. Possibly some arms support.  
They are not a part of NATO. So expect little to no action on the military front. 

Putins speech was basically: Ukraine is part of Russia and it joining NATO is a threat to Russia.
Terrible for the civilians involved.


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

Right wing dictator invades... silence.

Where is the out rage?

Not a bad effort by Stan Grant on the Wests response

This stood out "Liberalism elevates the individual to the point of alienation"  










						Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war
					

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2022)

With respect and sympathy to the people of Ukraine, at least we now see what Putin is, an international terrorist with designs not just on Ukraine but the rest of Europe too.

Maybe this will shake the Europeans out of their complacency and make them realise that Russia under Putin is a real threat to them and they need to boost their defence spending. 

I hope the sanctions last and are strengthened , and the Russian economy declines to the point that Russians realise that they are a Third World country, and they won't advance while Putin or other like minded people rule Russia.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Putins speech was basically: Ukraine is part of Russia



Exactly what the Chinese think about Taiwan.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly what the Chinese think about Taiwan.



That's next.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Right wing dictator invades... silence.
> 
> Where is the out rage?
> 
> ...



When did he become a Trump supporter?


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## Investoradam (25 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> With respect and sympathy to the people of Ukraine, at least we now see what Putin is, an international terrorist with designs not just on Ukraine but the rest of Europe too.
> 
> Maybe this will shake the Europeans out of their complacency and make them realise that Russia under Putin is a real threat to them and they need to boost their defence spending.
> 
> I hope the sanctions last and are strengthened , and the Russian economy declines to the point that Russians realise that they are a Third World country, and they won't advance while Putin or other like minded people rule Russia.



ever wondered why the west hate putin so much?


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

The West is heading for a new cold war with Russia. Like the last cold war, it can only be won by bankrupting Russia. If the Russian economy is in tatters, the Russian people will deal with Putin. If they don't then they will own their ruined future.

The West needs to isolate Russia economically. It is 2022, any country can be brought to its knees by being shut off from the rest of the world. Europe needs to start finding gas and oil from elsewhere. Bullets were never going to win this war.

Biden's response is pathetic. He is a very weak leader.


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> When did he become a Trump supporter?





He always was, Trump helped divide the US create chaos within the US, did Putin a massive favour.


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## Investoradam (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> The West is heading for a new cold war with Russia. Like the last cold war, it can only be won by bankrupting Russia. If the Russian economy is in tatters, the Russian people will deal with Putin. If they don't then they will own their ruined future.
> 
> The West needs to isolate Russia economically. It is 2022, any country can be brought to its knees by being shut off from the rest of the world. Europe needs to start finding gas and oil from elsewhere. Bullets were never going to win this war.
> 
> Biden's response is pathetic. He is a very weak leader.



no the russian economy is very secular and can near self sufficient. stop listning to the rabble western media for starters. yes including the crap from the ABC and SBS. simple fact that the ABC this morning stated that nazis are ukriane is basically is where its at with credibility

they fail to mention that the ukriane is a dictatorship as well worse than Russia and is far more corrupt than Russia , given if you remember that biden, the deep state and co were in the news about some very corrupt business happening


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> no the russian economy is very secular and can near self sufficient. stop listning to the rabble western media for starters. yes including the crap from the ABC and SBS. simple fact that the ABC this morning stated that nazis are ukriane is basically is where its at with credibility
> 
> they fail to mention that the ukriane is a dictatorship as well worse than Russia and is far more corrupt than Russia , given if you remember that biden, the deep state and co were in the news about some very corrupt business happening




The Russian economy can be self sufficient? Huh. The only reason the Russians have an economy is because they export oil, gas and other commodities. Take that revenue away and their economy will crumble. What else does Russia produce that the rest of the world need or want?

Russia has been ransacked by the criminal oligarchs and Putin and his cronies since 1991. It is one of the most corrupt countries on Earth.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Putin has bluffed the west and now is going to conquer Ukraine and set it up as a client state unless he is stopped.
> 
> Europe has been weak, Ukraine asked to join NATO a couple of years ago and were refused to appease Russia.
> What should happen now?
> ...



Knobby the West would send in troops, it is just they can't get consensus on what colour to wear, the vivid spring collection or the more sombre autumn numbers, then they have to consider what footwear matches. Also apparently there is a problem with the seating arrangements in the transport vehicles, the troops find them cramped and smelly.
When these issues are resolved, there will be a secret ballot of the soldiers, to see if they really are sure they want to travel.
This will be done in the name of inclusiveness.
Putin has been told, unless he withdraws immediately, the West will call a day of "breath holding" where everyone will hold their breaths until they collapse. If that doesn't scare him, nothing will.  🤣


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> He always was, Trump helped divide the US create chaos within the US, did Putin a massive favour.



I think the media did that, it isn't all about Trump, the Wests social structures have systematically been dismantled over the past 20 years.
The whole of the West is a basket case, no one knows what they are, or what to identify with.









						Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war
					

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.




					www.abc.net.au
				




_This is a demographic, economic and cultural fault line that runs through the liberal pluralist West and it is increasingly political. It is a battle over what the West is, and who is prepared to defend it.

It cuts across religious freedom, LGTBQI rights, race, gender and class. It divides the rural from the urban.

And Vladimir Putin sees it as a weakness. He has castigated the West for its culture wars and its corrosive identity politics_.

Who makes money by exploiting this cultural fault line? The media IMO.


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## PZ99 (25 February 2022)

It's a pity the West didn't consider all those above factors prior to invading all those other countries ?

The reason the West is doing nothing is because they don't have the guts or hardware to win wars anymore.

When you have volcano ash shutting down a Navy ship or a plane "threatened" by some Chinese light you know you've got.... issues


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## Investoradam (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> The Russian economy can be self sufficient? Huh. The only reason the Russians have an economy is because they export oil, gas and other commodities. Take that revenue away and their economy will crumble. What else does Russia produce that the rest of the world need or want?
> 
> Russia has been ransacked by the criminal oligarchs and Putin and his cronies since 1991. It is one of the most corrupt countries on Earth.



they are largly self sufficient not needing imports but export things like oil, gas etc lol
necessities what we need thx to the rubbish unted nations from banning Australia from drilling and refining our own

secondly we are being told nazis are running Ukrain  by the rabble western media! LMAO

maybe learn why the rubbish western media and banking cartel hate Russia and Putin, whilst putin is no saint, Russia went through all this liberalism already what the west is going through
learn about the bolchviks and communism, its history how it plays effect on and and todays society








						Alexei Navalny; Soros’s Tool To Force Russia Bow The Globalist and Its Methadone Needle | Ella Cruz | Top Censored Conservative News
					

Putting Russia on the methadone needle is the trajectory.It is stunning how the Russians may think a puppet fed with outsider dollars can heal the nation. Navalny is like a funnel with a hole at its bottom. He will never be enough fed. He is just a tunnel for the main vehicle to pass.




					ellacruz.org
				












						Putin Bans Rothschilds From Russia - Truth Inside Of You
					

Brave Vladimir Putin has banned Jacob Rothschild and his New World Order banking cartel family from entering Russian territory “under any circumstances. Putin recently reminded his cabinet that he paid off the Rothschild’s debt and “grabbed them by the scruff of the neck and kicked them out...




					www.truthinsideofyou.org
				











						REVENGE OF THE ROTHSCHILDS CRIME MAFIA AGAINST RUSSIA AND AMERICA!
					

REVENGE OF THE ROTHSCHILDS CRIME MAFIA AGAINST RUSSIA AND AMERICA! 1811 CE: ROTHSCHILDS CRIME SYNDICATE SECOND THREAT TO AMERICANS — Nathan Mayer Rothschild (1777 CE-1836 CE) issues another threat,…




					concisepolitics.com


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> they are largly self sufficient not needing imports but export things like oil, gas etc lol
> necessities what we need thx to the rubbish unted nations from banning Australia from drilling and refining our own
> 
> secondly we are being told nazis are runnking ukrian by the rabble western media! LMAO
> ...




How can you expect that you, or anything you say, can be taken seriously by anyone after posting links to tinfoil hat conspiracy websites?


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think the media did that, it isn't all about Trump,
> 
> Who makes money by exploiting this cultural fault line? The media IMO.





I know you like to blame the media but it was Trump who has sown discord in the US supported all in by the Republicans in the pursuit of power  no greater example than Trumps / Republicans  behaviour before / during and after the election.

After the attack on the capital Putin would have known he was good to go.

Anyway its all mute now, god help the Ukrainians lucky to be born Australian.... until the Chinese invade


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## PZ99 (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> How can you expect that you, or anything you say, can be taken seriously by anyone after posting links to tinfoil hat conspiracy websites?



greggles, that poster is a dropkick - best placed on ignore as he has less than nothing to add to this board.


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> The West is heading for a new cold war with Russia. Like the last cold war, it can only be won by bankrupting Russia. If the Russian economy is in tatters, the Russian people will deal with Putin. If they don't then they will own their ruined future.
> 
> The West needs to isolate Russia economically. It is 2022, any country can be brought to its knees by being shut off from the rest of the world. Europe needs to start finding gas and oil from elsewhere. Bullets were never going to win this war.
> 
> Biden's response is pathetic. He is a very weak leader.





From what I understand Putin does had a decent war chest and actions against Russia will blow back against the west economies price of oil and gas rising as an example how it all plays out is hard to say.

One thing for certain is western leaders have ceded Ukraine to Putin the question is what lays down the road to other nearby nation states.

And then there Taiwan?


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## The Triangle (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> I know you like to blame the media but it was Trump who has sown discord in the US supported all in by the Republicans in the pursuit of power  no greater example than Trumps / Republicans  behaviour before / during and after the election.
> 
> After the attack on the capital Putin would have known he was good to go.
> 
> Anyway its all mute now, god help the Ukrainians lucky to be born Australian.... until the Chinese invade



How was the attack on the capital remotely related?   There is no connecting those dots. 

Putin knew he was good to go once Obama, Nato, and everyone else let him take crimea without consequence a few years ago.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> I know you like to blame the media but it was Trump who has sown discord in the US supported all in by the Republicans in the pursuit of power  no greater example than Trumps / Republicans  behaviour before / during and after the election.
> 
> After the attack on the capital Putin would have known he was good to go.
> 
> Anyway its all mute now, god help the Ukrainians lucky to be born Australian.... until the Chinese invade



If it was only the U.S that had the issues, I would agree with you, but it is the whole of the West, that has the same underlying issues.
Handy to blame Trump, but not realistic, just fits the narrative.


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

I will say this, Putin has chosen his moment well. The western world is divided, debt laden and unwilling to sacrifice anything. Putin knew we would throw Ukraine under the bus because he knows that our primary fear is our fear of losing our high standard of living.

The West has become a fat, indulgent, navel gazing, social media and identity politics obsessed shadow of its former self. China and Russia see us for what we have become and are starting to make their moves. Xi is watching closely and Taiwan will be next.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> He always was, Trump helped divide the US create chaos within the US, did Putin a massive favour.



It was divided long before that. Short memories seem to forget the screeching over bush being "Satan". The left divided the nation into colour and sexual orientation. Then proceeded to burn down their cities.

Putin would have invaded under Trump's reign if the "chaos" was that great. Funny that he went twice under Biden.

Seem to remember Trump supplying javelin missiles, snipers, and other assorted weaponry. Obama sent defense or in Trumps words: "Blankets and pillows"

Also media claims that Ukraine "were not allowed to use the javelins against Russia". Which was another load of shite.  Once again Trumps call was the right move.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2022)

Why go to war with a whole country when you can target one man ?.

We all know whose idea this is, so a stealth missile through the window of a luxury home on the Black Sea while he's inside might do the trick.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> The Russian economy can be self sufficient? Huh. The only reason the Russians have an economy is because they export oil, gas and other commodities. Take that revenue away and their economy will crumble. What else does Russia produce that the rest of the world need or want?
> 
> Russia has been ransacked by the criminal oligarchs and Putin and his cronies since 1991. It is one of the most corrupt countries on Earth.



Sanctions won't do much if we are being realistic.
Ukraine has about 30% of the world's grain exports 20% of corn 90% of rapeseed.
Russia has debt of 18% gdp.
Then the gas supply.

They will most likely just trade with China.
Obviously this was years in the making and similar to what China has done. Get us addicted to one provider.

Europe is addicted. Are they really going to care about US posturing. More likely they are going to lick a whole lot of boot to avoid pain.


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## bk1 (25 February 2022)

Russian-supplied aluminum accounts for roughly 10% of total U.S. imports, highlighting the negative impact that sanctions could have for the U.S. and allies who rely on the metal for everything from iPhones to automobiles and fighter jets.

Almost four years ago, the U.S. levied sanctions on Russian aluminum producer United Co. Rusal International PJSC that sent prices surging and leaving buyers scrambling to find units. 









						Biden team to hold off on Russia sanctions hitting aluminum
					

Russian-supplied aluminum accounts for roughly 10% of total US imports, highlighting the negative impact that sanctions could have.




					www.mining.com


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Sanctions won't do much if we are being realistic.
> Ukraine has about 30% of the world's grain exports 20% of corn 90% of rapeseed.
> Russia has debt of 18% gdp.
> Then the gas supply.
> ...




You are correct. This has been years in the making. While increasingly populist and spineless western leaders have been shouting slogans and buying votes, the world's tyrants have been slowly and meticulously positioning themselves to strike. They have progressed their long term geopolitical strategies like grandmaster chess players, carefully making move after move while our leaders played right into their hands.


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## wayneL (25 February 2022)

A bit of a side bar: but when did Kiev (How it has always been spelt in English) become Kyiv?

What does this mean?


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> You are correct. This has been years in the making. While increasingly populist and spineless western leaders have been shouting slogans and buying votes, the world's tyrants have been slowly and meticulously positioning themselves to strike. They have progressed their long term geopolitical strategies like grandmaster chess players, carefully making move after move while our leaders played right into their hands.



Even the fact the Germans went with the Russian pipeline. The US was screaming at them not to do it. Also that Europe was not spending enough on defence. The resistance to that statement because Trump said it.

All that green energy counts for sht when the tanks start rolling. Even the US cutting its oil production at such a critical time in world affairs. The whole lot of them were caught napping.

Luckily Ukraine spent a lot on shoring up its defenses. Those Ukrainians are a hard people. They will die for their freedom. Hopefully they hold out for a while. Russia has some terrible weapons (thermobaric missiles come to mind). Pray for low casualties.

I hope the west surprises me. But who are we kidding.


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> A bit of a side bar: but when did Kiev (How it has always been spelt in English) become Kyiv?
> 
> What does this mean?



'Kiev' is Russian rooted


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## greggles (25 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Even the fact the Germans went with the Russian pipeline. The US was screaming at them not to do it. Also that Europe was not spending enough on defence. The resistance to that statement because Trump said it.
> 
> All that green energy counts for sht when the tanks start rolling. Even the US cutting its oil production at such a critical time in world affairs. The whole lot of them were caught napping.
> 
> ...




The Germans going for the pipeline is no different to the west moving their manufacturing base to China. We have traded our independence and position of strength in the world for China's cheap labour and cheap consumer products and Russia's oil and gas. Now we're no better than a meth addict whose dealer has just punched them in the face. We want to punch back, but we're afraid the dealer won't sell us any more meth.

I woke up today with this awful sense of self loathing. We've been outplayed, and this is just the beginning. Does the West have the moral strength to change the rules of the game and start playing to win?

I feel desperately sorry for the people of the Ukraine. Putin will capture their country and install his own puppet and we will do nothing more than sit on the sidelines and shake our fist.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> The Germans going for the pipeline is no different to the west moving their manufacturing base to China. We have traded our independence and position of strength in the world for China's cheap labour and cheap consumer products and Russia's oil and gas. Now we're no better than a meth addict whose dealer has just punched them in the face. We want to punch back, but we're afraid the dealer won't sell us any more meth.
> 
> I woke up today with this awful sense of self loathing. We've been outplayed, and this is just the beginning. Does the West have the moral strength to change the rules of the game and start playing to win?
> 
> I feel desperately sorry for the people of the Ukraine. Putin will capture their country and install his own puppet and we will do nothing more than sit on the sidelines and shake our fist.



As I've said on numerous occasions, there isn't much between us and China, we are sitting on China's raw materials, with Chinese money we could become a huge irrigated food bowl.
I didn't start the thread, "Sell W.A to China", for no reason.
We could have sold it to them, because Australia actually doesn't think twice about W.A and we are basically defenceless.
Lucky we have the SAS over here, well that is until we throw them in gaol, we will probably have to wait until they get out to organise a plan.
I think channel 7 is organising an SAS recruitment plan, so we should be o.k. 
As you say @greggles the West has no one but itself and its greed to blame.


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## wayneL (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Right wing dictator invades... silence.
> 
> Where is the out rage?
> 
> ...




WTF? Right wing?


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

Defenders on snake Island were wiped out by a Russian warship.


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## DB008 (25 February 2022)

Biden is a weak, frail old man with dementia, who was clearly and obviously installed into that position - Putin has jumped on Ukraine after watching the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal. Xi is also looking on with Taiwan in it's sights.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2022)

Meanwhile, one part of the free world fights back.









						Anonymous takes down Kremlin, Russian-controlled media site in cyber attacks
					

Hackers launch cyber attacks against Russian government websites, including state-controlled Russia Today, in response to the Ukraine crisis.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> WTF? Right wing?



Yes it has to be the 'right loonies', because the 'left loonies' can never admit they have stuffed up. 🤣

Castrate the West, then run around pointing fingers as the bad people walk all over them, jeez talk about stupidity.
The media has got what it wanted, a completely cynical society of self indulgent, entitled people, who give authority the bird.
Well we are going to find out how that works for them IMO.
The only thing that prevails in a major conflict is discipline, pride and loyalty, something the West has sent round the S bend, over recent years
This could end very badly.
ASF members keep mentioning Taiwan, I hope they are right.
There are plenty of other potential targets that have better intellectual property and or resources.
if your going to stir $hit, you might as well play for high stakes.


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

The Triangle said:


> How was the attack on the capital remotely related?   There is no connecting those dots.
> 
> Putin knew he was good to go once Obama, Nato, and everyone else let him take crimea without consequence a few years ago.





Realistically the US was the only obstacle to Putin, resources / military and will. 

The EU was never going to defend Ukraine.

A destabilised divided US removes the will part, the attack on the capital caused and backed by Trump also seen by most Republicans as legitimate is key to destabilising Biden and any decisions he takes which takes away resources.   

Still China is now the big concern and the reactions to its moves IMHO.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Realistically the US was the only obstacle to Putin, resources / military and will.
> 
> The EU was never going to defend Ukraine.
> 
> ...



Are you serious, the EU hasn't changed since WW2, they will have to raid the museums to get arms, they have given over their energy security to Russia, while shutting down their nuclear power stations ASAP.

The only reason the U.S is destabilised, is because Trump was making the multinationals relocate their manufacturing back to the U.S and charging the multinationals tariffs on the $hit they made in China.

So Trump had to go and now you have the result, you still blame Trump, just complete denial IMO.

This is going to end very, very badly unless people wake up.

There are only two camps that want the U.S destroyed, the multinationals and those that get paid to make the multi nationals junk. Helped along by those that rely on the multinationals advertising dollars.
Trumps problem was, he obviously couldn't be bought, so next option use your employees to discredit, even blind Freddy could see that.
Just feed the chooks what you want them to believe.
All a moot point now, things have moved on, well past Trump.


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## IFocus (25 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Are you serious, the EU hasn't changed since WW2, they will have to raid the museums to get arms, they have given over their energy security to Russia, while shutting down their nuclear power stations ASAP.
> 
> The only reason the U.S is destabilised, is because Trump was making the multinationals relocate their manufacturing back to the U.S and charging the multinationals tariffs on the $hit they made in China.
> 
> ...




So you didn't read my post then? eh.


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## Smurf1976 (25 February 2022)

greggles said:


> We've been outplayed, and this is just the beginning.



The sad thing is it wasn't just foreseeable but actually foreseen.

There's been people on about this scenario since literally last century. We've had _decades_ to heed the warnings.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> So you didn't read my post then? eh.



Yes I did, I am still trying to work out why you are blaming Trump and for what exactly, the wall, the tariffs, the calling out of the E.U for dragging the chain with regard defence?
The only reason Putin didn't do this earlier was because of Trump, exactly the reason why China and North Korea held back, now Biden is in what retaliation is going to happen?

Yeh just wondering in hindsight, what Trump did that hasn't proven to be actually forward thinking apart from upsetting the multinationals. WOW he upset Europe, well now Europe is wad punching its underpants, so Trump was right. He was demanding U.S manufacturers return to the U.S, well guess what China ain't going to send it now. lol

Most of what he predicted is actually looking likely, China and Russia appear to ratcheting up the aggression since he has been removed and when you are watching the U.S it isn't too dissimilar here and in the U.K.
Why we are all becoming destabilised is because a lot of people don't believe the mantra, if you are nice, everyone will treat you nice. History has shown, that is never the case and it is being shown right now in the Ukraine.

The systematic tearing down of our systems, politics and respect, by the media will end badly.
Chaos will take over and a disciplined group will move in to fill the vacuum left.
Watch for North Korea soon IMO.
Just my thoughts and time will tell, but it certainly isn't looking good IMO, with Russia's nuclear arsenal and China's manufacturing base that is some serious $hit. 
At least the left wing loonies and media, have shut up about the nuclear subs. 🤣


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## moXJO (25 February 2022)

A lot of propaganda from both sides.
Hard to verify anything happening on the ground. Seen incidents of pro Ukraine accounts saying destroyed Ukraine tanks were Russian.

Not even sure of the above story I posted on snake Island. Propaganda is super thick.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> A lot of propaganda from both sides.
> Hard to verify anything happening on the ground. Seen incidents of pro Ukraine accounts saying destroyed Ukraine tanks were Russian.
> 
> Not even sure of the above story I posted on snake Island. Propaganda is super thick.



Very possible, but it still highlights how exposed the West really is, if a super power doesn't play nice.
It has been a bloody big wake up call IMO, as to just how complacent the West has become, there is one thing not expecting $hit to happen, but there is no excuse for not being prepared if it does.
Let's be honest if Australia was attacked, what could we do? Nothing, I doubt we could actually produce a rifle let alone heavy artillery, 90% of our heavy engineering is outsourced to China.


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## StockyGuy (26 February 2022)

A "proxy war" from the last Cold War - gotta love the classics:


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## PZ99 (26 February 2022)

Ruddy on the money...

"Now, in near-complete strategic condominium, China and Russia are willing to move boldly in directly challenging the US for global leadership, seeking to fundamentally reshape the world order to suit their interests and values. Meeting this challenge will take a degree of unity and statecraft that the liberal-democratic world has, in recent decades, struggled to marshal."

More diatribe here > https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/how-ukraine-fits-into-china-s-long-game-20220225-p59zq8


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## mullokintyre (26 February 2022)

Why are people still talking about Trump?
The bloke only had four years in the White house.
Putin and Xi have been in for much longer.
What about the eight years of Obama?
Or  Angela Merkel or Boris Johnstone, or Tony Blair or David Cameron or Hollannde Sarkozy or Macron?
All of them in Europe were in power longer than Trump.
Why is none of this their fault?
But still , everyone blames Trump.
Hillary Clinton, once  the secretary state oof the USA, tops them all.
Still pushing the line that the Republicans are soft on Russia, despite it being shown that the whole thing was a Democratic con job.
And so despite the fact that Biden was weak on Afghanistan, weak on China, France, and now Russia, its still all Trumps fault.
USA is F$%#ed






 Mick


----------



## IFocus (26 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I did, I am still trying to work out why you are blaming Trump and for what exactly, the wall, the tariffs, the calling out of the E.U for dragging the chain with regard defence?
> The only reason Putin didn't do this earlier was because of Trump, exactly the reason why China and North Korea held back, now Biden is in what retaliation is going to happen?
> 
> Yeh just wondering in hindsight, what Trump did that hasn't proven to be actually forward thinking apart from upsetting the multinationals. WOW he upset Europe, well now Europe is wad punching its underpants, so Trump was right. He was demanding U.S manufacturers return to the U.S, well guess what China ain't going to send it now. lol
> ...





You still haven't read my post, your rants are bizarre suggest you check your meds.

My points were the EU would not shed blood for Ukraine and now you can throw in the US as well for that matter.

Neither have bolstered Ukraine defence armament's in any meaning full way what does that tell you? 

The US is divided on just about anything now, divided nations don't get anything done never mind war or suppling resources, you say the divisions are nothing to do with Trump its all the medias fault or the left wing loonies.

Trump is the hero that would have stopped all this happening... some how.

Yeah right, carry on.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> You still haven't read my post, your rants are bizarre suggest you check your meds.
> 
> My points were the EU would not shed blood for Ukraine and now you can throw in the US as well for that matter.
> 
> ...



Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.
Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?
Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only  wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.
In trump , they saw someone who would speak for them.
If it was not Trump it would have been someone else acting as the lightning rod for their grievances.
And those grievances still exist.
Trump may or may not run in the next presidential race, but whoever runs as the GOP representative, they will carry the aspirations and hopes of a lot of still aggrieved people.
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (26 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.
> Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?
> Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
> They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only  wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
> ...



But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?


----------



## moXJO (26 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?



Is there any leaders in the western world who could help anyone?

Obama was billed as this great saviour and he ended up being one of the worst ever. A lot of the current woes can be attributed to his government actions. 

Looking around at western government's political leaders, I'm reminded of the end of empires from history.


----------



## rederob (26 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.



Really?
An inveterate liar and cheat who appointed more people to high office who were subsequently charged for various offences than any other President.  Not to mention being impeached and later trying to overturn an election result via America's worst riot in a public building, which happened to be the nation's seat parliament.


mullokintyre said:


> Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?



Partisan politics and sheer stupidity.  But he lost the popular vote by 3 million to Clinton and 7 million to Biden, yet was elected through America's gerrymander.


mullokintyre said:


> Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.



Seriously?
Their way of life did not change.
However, Trump was a political freak show like no other and Murdoch's media pandered to his idiocy and was responsible for an incredible lift in fake news and falsehoods.


mullokintyre said:


> They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only  wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.



I was only there for a month during Trump's term and never, ever got that impression from talking to people across the nation.


mullokintyre said:


> Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.



Bunkum.  Some media platforms chose to censor lies and distortions, but Murdoch's media was to the fore in distorting reality at every opportunity.


mullokintyre said:


> In trump , they saw someone who would speak for them.
> If it was not Trump it would have been someone else acting as the lightning rod for their grievances.



Trump appealed mostly to the rustbelt and very wealthy.  He did zip for the former and a lot for the latter.


mullokintyre said:


> And those grievances still exist.



Because in 4 years Trump achieved almost nothing he of what he espoused.
On the other hand he managed to make a mockery of "democracy" an America a laughing stock in Europe.

On topic, Trump had a lot of intelligence about Russia's intent towards Ukraine but did very little to support it given its strategic position between NATO nations and Russia, and his withholding of $400m in military aid is *evidence*.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?



They may offer someone who says they will help them, or the dissafected will think they will help them, but I think it is too late for America.
The establishment is just too big and too powerful.
The slow decline started years ago, and its bloated and corrupt bureacracy in political, educational, financial and information sectors will never let go of power.
They are doomed.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (26 February 2022)

Just to highlight the way the Elites in the USA have become so far removed from its citizens, in the middle of a major invasion by Russia into another of its neighbouring countries, John Kerry hopes that Putin will still commit to climate change.
From Daily Mail UK


> Republicans have torn into 'despicable' former Secretary of State John Kerry for saying he hopes Vladimir Putin will still help fight climate change just before Russian fighter jets, troops and tanks rolled into Ukraine in an all-out invasion.
> 
> President Biden's climate envoy said frozen Russian land is 'thawing', Putin's 'infrastructure' is 'at risk' and urged the Russian tyrant to 'help us to stay on track with respect to what we need to do for the climate.
> 
> 'I'm concerned about Ukraine because of the people of Ukraine and because of the principles that are at risk, in terms of international law and trying to change boundaries of international law by force,' Kerry, President Biden's special envoy for climate said in an interview with BBC Arabic.



I have no doubt that Putins reaction to climate change is the very last thing on the minds of the citizens of either Ukraine or Russia.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
> They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only  wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
> Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.
> 
> Mick



You could apply that to the U.K and Australia, it is just the same, the majority are becoming very disenfranchised and feel they are becoming invisible.


----------



## moXJO (26 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Really?
> An inveterate liar and cheat who appointed more people to high office who were subsequently charged for various offences than any other President.  Not to mention being impeached and later trying to overturn an election result via America's worst riot in a public building, which happened to be the nation's seat parliament.
> 
> Partisan politics and sheer stupidity.  But he lost the popular vote by 3 million to Clinton and 7 million to Biden, yet was elected through America's gerrymander.
> ...



He called out multiple issues that were on point. And they are now all coming home to roost. 
Trump torched NATO countries to spend at least 2% gdp on defence. And gave Germany an earful about using Russian gas. 

So apparently idiots know more then entrenched politicians.


----------



## sptrawler (26 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> You still haven't read my post, your rants are bizarre suggest you check your meds.
> 
> My points were the EU would not shed blood for Ukraine and now you can throw in the US as well for that matter.
> 
> Neither have bolstered Ukraine defence armament's in any meaning full way what does that tell you?



The EU hasn't bolstered its own defence, so why would they bolster Ukraine's defence?

Which is exactly why Trump called them out for it and was cancelled by the media who claimed he was destroying long standing alliances, when all he was doing was demanding the EU fulfill its side of the alliance by maintaining a viable military presence.

So what that tells me is, that the media were more concerned about undermining Trump, than putting the emphasis on his message that the EU could end up in the situation they now find themselves in.



IFocus said:


> The US is divided on just about anything now, divided nations don't get anything done never mind war or suppling resources, you say the divisions are nothing to do with Trump its all the medias fault or the left wing loonies.



The US is divided, the U.K is divided and Australia is divided, because the media are systematically undermining elected governments, to what end who knows, but the general public are feeling that they are being manipulated.
That is what is driving the discontent.



IFocus said:


> Trump is the hero that would have stopped all this happening... some how.



No one is saying Trump is a hero, that is a term you are using, the fact is China, Russia and North Korea definitely lacked confidence when Trump was the President. That lack of confidence obviously no longer exists.





IFocus said:


> Yeah right, carry on.



Time will tell, which way the majority feel, that's for sure.
Things are becoming more and more polarized.


----------



## Tisme (26 February 2022)

I think he's bored.


----------



## moXJO (26 February 2022)

I'm sure Ukraine once had a whole heap of nukes. Now they de-nuked under the promise of protection of the US or Russia I thought?


----------



## Investoradam (26 February 2022)

greggles said:


> How can you expect that you, or anything you say, can be taken seriously by anyone after posting links to tinfoil hat conspiracy websites?



do you ever think that there is more than meets the eye. why Putin attacked Ukraine and what he wants?

or just go along with the western media narrative who most people know are full or crap. you know when the other media peddle the same crap as the murdoch does there is something wrong?
when the ABC reports that nazis are in control of Ukrainian
why do the west hate Putin so much?
do you know the history of Russia and the Revolution of the Bolchviks etc
all those conspiracies of that trump and Russian collusion we proven to be a lie and set up by the democrats and western media

you wont know crap except call every thing a conspiracy  and go on and believe that everything is rainbow and skittles in the world 









						The Next Target OF Soros’s Regime Change? Putin. The Next Puppet? Alexei Navalny | Ella Cruz | Top Censored Conservative News
					

The German regional MP Gunnar Lindemann from the Berlin branch of the Eurosceptic AfD party:    “Navalny is just a puppet of the US, who is paid by the Soros foundation, Clinton foundation, who paid for his




					ellacruz.org
				











						Putin’s Purge of the Rothschild Money Changers – VT  | Alternative Foreign Policy Media
					






					www.veteranstoday.com


----------



## IFocus (26 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> They may offer someone who says they will help them, or the dissafected will think they will help them, but I think it is too late for America.
> The establishment is just too big and too powerful.
> The slow decline started years ago, and its bloated and corrupt bureacracy in political, educational, financial and information sectors will never let go of power.
> They are doomed.
> Mick





Mick largely agree the US is riven with division across many axis's be it wealth disparity at a all time high and increasing, race and culture wars, access to health care that's before you get to the toxic politics.

And yes wealth is power and those with it wont let go any time soon but disagree re bureaucracy Trump tried to destroy it as it stood in his way to domination its really the glue that's require for a democracy India being a case in point.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2022)

One of the few things the West has in it's favour imo is its consumer spending power.

I detested Trump, but he was right about getting manufacturing out of China and back to US or other Western countries.

Cut off the socialist's money supply and that leaves less for them to buy weapons with.

Some of us here have been saying that for a long time but it hasn't sunk in yet.


----------



## sptrawler (26 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> One of the few things the West has in it's favour imo is its consumer spending power.
> 
> I detested Trump, but he was right about getting manufacturing out of China and back to US or other Western countries.
> 
> ...



You nailed it, the problem is the multinational machine makes huge money by sending the manufacturing to low wage, low tax, easily corrupted Countries, how much do you think they would have lost in profits if they were farced to return to Western countries?
So the only way you can force them back is with financial penalties i.e tariffs, so how do you stop that? get rid of the people trying to impose them.
How do you do that, by telling those who work for your advertising dollars, that they had better sort it, because a big financial loss to us is a bigger financial loss to you.
I may be wrong, but as you say Trump was a horrible human being, it doesn't mean his intent wasn't correct with regard China and Russia. The last thing Trump would want is to see, is all his money go round the S bend, because the U.S goes down the toilet.
The multinationals they don't give a rats, it's about the bottom line, they just want to make it as cheap as possible and sell it at maximum profit and they don't care who buys it.
The bosses just move to where it is best to live and the last thing they care about is patriotism, China do the best deal, China it is.
Trump upset them, the bosses set the media blood hounds lose, status quo re established.
What is amazing is how many people, still can't get past the character assassination and want to view it as personal issue, it just shows the power of the media.
The West only has consumer spending power, while they have something to sell, which is fast running out the cashed up from the growing economies are buying the Wests best properties, the Wests best businesses anything of good value they are buying, once it is gone then comes the reckoning.
Then we are just a bunch of baristas, who own nothing and produce nothing of value, lets see how that works out for the smug ones.


----------



## moXJO (26 February 2022)

Too late. Flipping the world order is underway:









						China's Xi, in message to N.Korea's Kim, vows cooperation under 'new situation' -KCNA
					

Chinese President Xi Jinping stressed to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un the significance of cooperation between the two countries, North Korea's state media KCNA reported on Saturday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## The Triangle (26 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Too late. Flipping the world order is underway:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Reuters now reporting what North Korean state media says?    Their clicks must be dropping off.

_....North Korea's state media reported Saturday...._


----------



## basilio (26 February 2022)

You have to hand it to the Ukraine army.  Absolutely committed to depending their country. On paper this is no contest. But on the ground these soldiers and the countries leader are not giving an inch.

I think  Putin believed that just invading Ukraine and blowing up the airfields would be sufficient to cower the country into submission.  So far not so.  The individual acts of heroism and  "xuck you" courage would be inspiring others and unnerving the Russian military. I don't think this is their war.

As Russia has to fight  harder, kill more  people  and  destroy more of the cities  their international reputation goes further down the toilet.  The determination of Western counties to  ratchet up sanctions on Putin and his supporters will increase.  I wonder how secure Putin feels ?


----------



## mullokintyre (26 February 2022)

I hope they play this video in that useless place in Geneva called the UN.


Mick


----------



## StockyGuy (26 February 2022)

If the West simply and absolutely freezes all the oligarchs' foreign bank accounts and confiscates all their property such as football teams and mansions, Putin might come to a RasPutin-esque end, courtesy of his "pals".


----------



## IFocus (26 February 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

It is just a sad indictement on the West, that Russia would have the gall to do it, it just shows how low we have gone.

My father got off on this sort of insipid subserviant reaction, yet we in the West are telling our kids bullying isn't good.

What isn't good, is bringing up our kids to be victims, bullies will always be there, what we are doing is not teaching our kids how to deal with them.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Too late. Flipping the world order is underway:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well the next move will be very interesting, will it be Taiwan? South Korea?, or Australia.

Well life is certainly moving on. 🤣
South Korea, Samsung and most of the other high level chip manufacturing, where is Trump when you need him.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I hope they play this video in that useless place in Geneva called the UN.
> 
> 
> Mick




The guy survived in the car. Didn't look like a scratch on him from what I could see. Lucky man


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Ex vets and Cod players from around the world starting to filter into Poland. 









						VolunteersForUkraine • r/volunteersForUkraine
					

This subreddit is dedicated to support volunteers who wish to defend Ukraine. Slava Ukraini!




					old.reddit.com


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

I just hope all these people who take the moral high ground, to champion the underdog, are just as commited when the real $hit hits the fan.


----------



## StockyGuy (27 February 2022)

What's the etiquette for nukes?  A nice little shot across the bow as a chivalrous warning in some sparely populated oblast.  Or would the West have to simply "empty the clip" on Russia?  Dead Hand propaganda aside, I tend to think there would be tremendous advantage in making an overwhelming dawn raid style first strike.  Even if there is somehow just enough of the good ol' Apollo 11 style genius left in the US of A, along with key allies, could the level of destruction ever be justified, even if the execution avoided MAD?


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Couple of threads which is the reality of the situation. A lot of the Russians are conscripts that don't want to be there. I heard 10000 Chechens are heading to Ukraine. Possibly military tactic of sending in the recruits before your battle hardened. Who knows. This whole thing has me scratching my head.


_*Russian soldiers from all across the country were deceived into heading to the Ukrainian border, and some were beaten if they resisted.

...their sons only recently joined the military as conscripts and were told they were going to the border with Ukraine for drills. But their statuses were then abruptly changed to contract soldiers— a role for those with more combat and training experience—and they were suddenly thrust into war.

“They are switching entire regiments to contract [soldiers,] although the guys did not submit any formal requests for this, and took no such initiative. There are instances of physical violence, and beatings of those who refuse to become contract soldiers. And after that it’s completely unknown [what happens to them], because they take away their phones,”*_

*“We've had a flurry of calls from scared mothers all over Russia. They are crying, they don’t know if their children are alive or healthy,”*





Governments and the elite need to be the disposable ones. Not these young kids. Stop licking boot and learn the lesson. Government is not your friend.

*Possible propaganda *


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> What's the etiquette for nukes?  A nice little shot across the bow as a chivalrous warning in some sparely populated oblast.  Or would the West have to simply "empty the clip" on Russia?  Dead Hand propaganda aside, I tend to think there would be tremendous advantage in making an overwhelming dawn raid style first strike.  Even if there is somehow just enough of the good ol' Apollo 11 style genius left in the US of A, along with key allies, could the level of destruction ever be justified, even if the execution avoided MAD?



It would be too great a cost. Russian people are not the enemy. The ruling class is.


----------



## StockyGuy (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> It would be too great a cost. Russian people are not the enemy. The ruling class is.




Yeah, I dunno.  If the West will not do nukes for the Ukes, how far west is too far?  Romania?  Poland?  Finland?  Dealing with Russia would kind of send a message to any other interested observers on that continent of Asia of how things gonna be


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2022)

Breaking news, Europe bans Russia from using SWIFT.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Guy from the tank:


----------



## rederob (27 February 2022)

*This *explains why *SWIFT *sanctions are vital in getting Russia to understand what the rest of the world can do to stop it from prospering from its invasion of Ukraine.
About time I reckon as it could have been done when Russia refused to withdraw its troops from the border.


----------



## basilio (27 February 2022)

*It's not the size of the dog in the fight that counts ; it's the size of the fight in the dog.*

This invasion is not going according to plan for Russia. The Ukrainans are not rolling over as planned (or hoped for) . Resistance is fierce, well planned and effective. The original plan called for a drop of 5000 elite paratroopers  to seize the government, kill  President Zelensky         and install a puppet  government. That operation has been effectively foiled.

It has become clear that the (conscript)  bulk of the Russian army has no appetite for war and seems to have little idea of why they are there. The logistics of keeping the invading army mobile also seem to be failing.

The courage of the Ukranian military and civilian population in defending their homes is unnervng the Russian army.  They can of course obliterate all opposition with the sort of fire power they have.  But that wasn't the plan and the optics would be even more catastrophic  than currently seen.  To date Russia has been relatively careful in it's invasion to  target military objectives.  From what I can see civilian deaths to date have been accidental or incidental.  That would radically change if the gloves came off.









						Volodymyr Zelenskiy stands defiant in face of Russian attack
					

Analysis: Ukraine’s president has won over critics with his courage and resilience as his country fights for survival




					www.theguardian.com
				












						How Ukrainian defiance has derailed Putin’s plans
					

It’s too early to describe the Kremlin operation as a failure, but it has not succeeded yet in its mission to seize and subjugate its neighbour




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Armed with hammers and pistols, Ukrainians wait at barricades for the Russians
					

At makeshift checkpoints, motley crews of citizens vow to do everything in their power to halt the Russian advance




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (27 February 2022)

basilio said:


> *It's not the size of the dog in the fight that counts ; it's the size of the fight in the dog.*
> 
> This invasion is not going according to plan for Russia. The Ukrainans are not rolling over as planned (or hoped for) . Resistance is fierce, well planned and effective. The original plan called for a drop of 5000 elite paratroopers  to seize the government, kill  President Zelensky         and install a puppet  government. That operation has been effectively foiled.
> 
> ...



Europe should provide air cover.
If they don't Putin will just start bombing them into rubble.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Air raid is on now apparently.


----------



## basilio (27 February 2022)

IFocus said:


>





Wow !! That's what a determined civilian militia can do when fighting for their country. I suppose the only way the Russians could stop this would be blasting the absolute xhit out of everything they going into. Very daunting . 

 Those Molotov cocktails go well. A great Russian innovation in WW2. 

(Just a joke. I think it was the Finnish army that mass produced these petrol bombs in their countries defense in 1940. The named them after the Soviet   Foreign Minister who organized the invasion of Finland. They have been adapted and used in many theaters of war )









						Molotov cocktail
					

The Molotov cocktail, also known as a Petrol Bomb, Fire Bomb (not to be confused with the actual Fire Bomb) or just Molotov is a generic name used for a variety of bottle-based improvised incendiary weapons. Due to the relative ease of production, they are frequently used by amateur protesters...




					military-history.fandom.com


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Wow !! That's what a determined civilian militia can do when fighting for their country. I suppose the only way the Russians could stop this would be blasting the absolute xhit out of everything they going into. Very daunting .
> 
> Those Molotov cocktails go well. A great Russian innovation in WW2.
> 
> ...



Hopefully no thermobaric weapons are used on the cities in response.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

IFocus said:


>




Apparently this video is from 6 years ago.
It's from the riots. Disinformation is being pushed hard.


----------



## basilio (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Apparently this video is from 6 years ago.
> It's from the riots. Disinformation is being pushed hard.




Is it ? Perhaps. Be interesting to see the evidence.  Even so the principle of how effective a civilian blockade armed with molotov cocktails can be against armoured troop carriers is not going to be lost.

And it doesn't detract from the many other current examples of the military and citizens fighting back against the invaders.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (27 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I hope they play this video in that useless place in Geneva called the UN.
> Mick



Geneva was where the League of Nations was situated. Presently, there are UN agencies there (and in other pleasant places)

UN Security Council is in New York


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Is it ? Perhaps. Be interesting to see the evidence.  Even so the principle of how effective a civilian blockade armed with molotov cocktails can be against armoured troop carriers is not going to be lost.
> 
> And it doesn't detract from the many other current examples of the military and citizens fighting back against the invaders.



It was during the riots I'm sure there is a Netflix special with this footage in it. A lot of Ukrainians were getting the shits that it's being used. Also next post down now.


----------



## DB008 (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Disinformation is being pushed hard





*The First Casualty of War Is the Truth: The Propaganda Machine Recycles 2021 Zelensky Images *​
Question everything. Take nothing at face value.​​Everything we are seeing in U.S. media surrounding U.S. interests in Ukraine is a massive propaganda operation with the headquarters in the U.S. State Department and U.S. intelligence community.  The sense of sympathy you are feeling is part of an intentionally manipulative operation from within this DC matrix.​​The images, pictures, videos, speeches, soundbites and the cinematography broadcast by U.S. corporate media are all purposefully intended to create a very specific outlook within the American people toward the issues in Ukraine.  The leftist United Nations, and the leftist U.S State Dept, will work together on this just like they have done in the prior examples (Ukraine 1.0, Libya, Egypt, etc.).​​It is very easy to become a victim of psychological warfare intended to manipulate our opinions.​










*The Current Western Propaganda for Ukraine Is Epic in Scale*​
“Everything is about writing a script, creating a narrative, building a ‘better story,’ where the globalists are the heroes. In essence, the ‘strategic power’ battle is for your mind…​​Everything in modern warfare is storytelling.​​Question all of it.​​The stories of the 13 guards on an island telling the Russian naval ship to f**k off… yeah, turns out they surrendered. The ‘Ghost of Kyiv’ pilot, the lady with the sunflower seeds etc., now all recognized as lies and propaganda. And do not expect it to stop, because it won’t. Thus, the nature of warfare for your mind.”​


----------



## Knobby22 (27 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> *The First Casualty of War Is the Truth: The Propaganda Machine Recycles 2021 Zelensky Images *​
> Question everything. Take nothing at face value.​​Everything we are seeing in U.S. media surrounding U.S. interests in Ukraine is a massive propaganda operation with the headquarters in the U.S. State Department and U.S. intelligence community.  The sense of sympathy you are feeling is part of an intentionally manipulative operation from within this DC matrix.​​The images, pictures, videos, speeches, soundbites and the cinematography broadcast by U.S. corporate media are all purposefully intended to create a very specific outlook within the American people toward the issues in Ukraine.  The leftist United Nations, and the leftist U.S State Dept, will work together on this just like they have done in the prior examples (Ukraine 1.0, Libya, Egypt, etc.).​​It is very easy to become a victim of psychological warfare intended to manipulate our opinions.​
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed, so everyone should get off twitter etc. and get news from reputable sources.

Posted 20 minutes ago.
Ukrainian forces resist Russian advance on Kyiv, with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying 'we will not lay down any weapons'








						Kharkhiv's Governor says city is 'completely ours' after earlier advance by Russian forces
					

Kharkiv's Governor says Ukraine has full control of the city and it is being "completely cleansed of the enemy" after a Russian on Ukraine's second-largest city.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> So everyone should get off twitter etc. and get news from reputable sources.
> Ukrainian forces resist Russian advance on Kyiv, with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying 'we will not lay down any weapons'
> 
> 
> ...



It's extremely hard to know what is the truth during these conflicts. US is the absolute masters of bullsht, Russia seems to be struggling. There's a reason I try to label some of the stories as *potential propaganda*.


----------



## The Triangle (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> He called out multiple issues that were on point. And they are now all coming home to roost.
> Trump torched NATO countries to spend at least 2% gdp on defence. And gave Germany an earful about using Russian gas.
> 
> So apparently idiots know more then entrenched politicians.



Seems Germany finally changed its mind and listened to Trump on defence spending (just a few years late).   Now bumping it up to 2% of GDP. 









						Germany to increase defence spending in response to 'Putin's war' - Scholz
					

Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Sunday Germany would sharply increase its spending on defence to more than 2% of its economic output in one of a series of policy shifts prompted by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Seems Germany finally changed its mind and listened to Trump on defence spending (just a few years late).   Now bumping it up to 2% of GDP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What did the media say when Trump said they needed to do that, oh that's right, he is just trashing the trust between allies.
Yes nothing changes, just keep feeding the chooks.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Watch them put it down to Biden diplomacy.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Watch them put it down to Biden diplomacy.



It would be funny, if it wasn't so serious, it was only a couple of months ago that Australia was being trashed for dumping the French subs.
I haven't heard much from Macron in the last few days, yet he was supposed to have used his incredible charm and wit, to have calmed Putin down.
No doubt Putin needed a new pair of undies after that meeting and it wouldn't have been from $hitting himself, more likely he wet himself laughing IMO.
I just hope we can get a couple of the U.S subs on afterpay, because IMO at the moment, we really could do with some form of deterrent.
I don't think a group of left wing loonies poking their tongues out, is really going to cut, when push comes to shove. 😂

It would be nice if Putin agreed to do this like a man, one on one fight with the mayor of Kyiv, now I would have a lot of respect for Putin if he did that. 




Or if he wasn't happy with that match up, maybe the Mayor's brother.




That would sort the Worlds problems out, it is o.k being tough when you are using other people as enforcers, why doesn't Putin man up? One of the things these two Ukrainian brothers don't lack is courage.












						Klitschko brothers - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## moXJO (28 February 2022)

The other thing I worry is how much data is China compiling from all this?

They get a template of what will likely happen if they take Taiwan.

US/west should be pushing Russia/China alliance through Asia and what is happening to Ukraine.  They would want to start thinking the long game.


----------



## moXJO (28 February 2022)

Trying to look "battle hardened" when you accidentally hit the mag release ...


----------



## wayneL (28 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Agreed, so everyone should get off twitter etc. and get news from reputable sources.
> 
> Posted 20 minutes ago.
> Ukrainian forces resist Russian advance on Kyiv, with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying 'we will not lay down any weapons'
> ...



Reputable?

I would posit that there is no such thing in the current environment... And if there is it would be almost impossible to discern among the rest of the bull****


----------



## rederob (28 February 2022)

If you want to see exactly (confrontingly) what is being inflicted on the Russians in Ukraine then go to *Anatoliy Sovailo*'s YouTube site, rather than watch MSN snippets.
If NATO can prop up the Ukranians in coming days it's hard to see Russians wanting to continue their invasion.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2022)

It seems to me that this invasion will likely result in the one thing Russia didn't want, ie Ukraine joining NATO.


----------



## wayneL (28 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems to me that this invasion will likely result in the one thing Russia didn't want, ie Ukraine joining NATO.



At this point, nothing would surprise me.

What I am sure of is that what we think is happening isn't what is happening.


----------



## basilio (28 February 2022)

rederob said:


> If you want to see exactly (confrontingly) what is being inflicted on the Russians in Ukraine then go to *Anatoliy Sovailo*'s YouTube site, rather than watch MSN snippets.
> If NATO can prop up the Ukranians in coming days it's hard to see Russians wanting to continue their invasion.




Those trucks represent a  lot of dead soldiers.  Sobering. Excellent  you tube site.


----------



## basilio (28 February 2022)

Has Putin already lost the war ? This analysis suggests he's toast.









						Why Vladimir Putin has already lost this war | Yuval Noah Harari
					

The Russians may yet conquer Ukraine. But Ukrainians have shown that they will not let them hold it, says historian and author Yuval Noah Harari




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (28 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Those trucks represent a  lot of dead soldiers.  Sobering.



I was listening to a military expert on the ABC and he was surprised that the Russians initially went in overconfident and poorly supplied. Vehicles running out of fuel and sending in small forces like the one shown on their own. The soldiers thought they were on a training drill and when it turned real the leadership seemed unprepared.

They won't make the same mistake twice. I hope therefore a deal is struck with Ukraine and it ends this war.

The oligarchs probably thought they would each get a piece of Ukraine.
Now that it is they that will be suffering under western sanctions, it may lead them to consider the overthrowal of Putin.
Caligula and Indira Ghandi are some of the many leaders killed by their own protection.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> At this point, nothing would surprise me.
> 
> What I am sure of is that what we think is happening isn't what is happening.



You are spot on @wayneL

The biggest issue is yet to unfold,  what did Putin and Xi agreed to? One would guess it has something to do with currencies, trade or arms manufacturing IMO.

Let's not forget what Trump was trying to sort out, the trade imbalance, the U.S, Australia, the E.U rely on most of their manufactured goods from China.

China hasn't shown its hand yet, until that happens, I wouldn't be doing the high fives and fist pumping.


----------



## The Triangle (28 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The biggest issue yet to unfold, is what Putin and Xi agreed to, one would guess it has something to do with currencies and trade.
> 
> Let's not forget what Trump was trying to sort out, the trade imbalance, the U.S, Australia, the E.U rely on most of their manufactured goods from China.
> China hasn't shown its hand yet, until that happens, I wouldn't be doing the high fives and fist pumping.



China has their issues as well, but can't deny the effort their government puts in to bettering the living conditions of *most* of their own people (except the Uyghurs, minorities, dissenters, etc) 

Putin has only ever looked after himself and his mates (who are only his mates because he lets them rob billions off Russians) and Russia has gone backwards in 20 years.  Deep down I can't imagine XI or China has much time for Putin and they probably only deal with him out of necessity and to piss off the west a little.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

The Triangle said:


> China has their issues as well, but can't deny the effort their government puts in to bettering the living conditions of *most* of their own people (except the Uyghurs, minorities, dissenters, etc)
> 
> Putin has only ever looked after himself and his mates (who are only his mates because he lets them rob billions off Russians) and Russia has gone backwards in 20 years.  Deep down I can't imagine XI or China has much time for Putin and they probably only deal with him out of necessity and to piss off the west a little.



Absolutely, China as usual will be watching, to see where the money is to be made.
That IMO is why the EU is stepping it up, if they don't it will end up a World of pain for them.
My guess is the U.S is watching the Pacific side of things, the last thing the U.S needs is China to have our raw earths, lithium, nickel, uranium etc you name it, they get it.
My guess would be, several of the U.S fleets, will be moving to the Pacific region.
Winston Churchill was right, when he said we should just go on through to Russia and have it democratic.
What did Churchill wanted after ww2?


Each leader had an agenda for the Yalta Conference: Roosevelt wanted Soviet support in the U.S. Pacific War against Japan and Soviet participation in the UN; Churchill pressed *for free elections and democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe* (specifically Poland); and Stalin demanded a Soviet sphere


----------



## The Triangle (28 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is the U.S is watching the Pacific side of things, the last thing the U.S needs is China to have our raw earths, lithium, nickel, uranium, you name it they get it.



Ahhh, They'll be fine.  Clearly you don't pay attention the ASX penny casino!  There are a few dozen junior explorers out there all ready to put their _amazing world class_  West Australian lithium/rare earth/nickel/uranium _prospects _into production and they'll all be zero carbon green gender neutral producers supplying Tesla


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Ahhh, They'll be fine.  Clearly you don't pay attention the ASX penny casino!  There are a few dozen junior explorers out there all ready to put their _amazing world class_  West Australian lithium/rare earth/nickel/uranium _prospects _into production and they'll all be zero carbon green gender neutral producers supplying Tesla



And only employing lgbtqia+, white male or female Christian hetrosexual's need not apply, especially if your married with children, don't bring your baggage.
They will want to be inclusive, so that gets rid of most of us, you will be vetted by an extremely well off person who is smug, has a social conscience, thinks of themselves as a small time philanthropist and smugly votes Labor, just to touch base with the unwashed masses. 😂


----------



## moXJO (28 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems to me that this invasion will likely result in the one thing Russia didn't want, ie Ukraine joining NATO.



I don't think that will happen. Russia most likely will go harder. They are securing Russia friendly areas of the Ukraine. But underestimated the resistance in many places.

The big mistake was they sent one echelon no second. If you want to blitz you need multiple echelons securing behind you and reinforcing those at the front. You keep supply lines open this way with areas locked down. They sweep up any defenders by overwhelming with further troops heading up the rear.

Now the last time Russia fought Ukraine they ran over the top of them. Ukraine anti tank, grenades, shells were 99% defective along with the rest of their crud equipment. But Russia did not wipe them all out. 

So Ukraine adapted. Rotated a lot of troops through donbass (close to half a mill potentially). So that's a lot of experience. New equipment. I'm hearing the Turkish drones are causing huge damage. Upgraded weapons and the javelins from the US.  So from roughly 2014 to now they are a completely different force.

Putin is between a rock and a hard place though. No telling what he might unleash if NATO goes ahead and makes Ukraine a part of it. Personally I think they will overstep a line.  My guess is more troops or an agreement. 

This whole thing seems weird and half arsed. It's like he planned for everything else but the actual invasion.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

Spot on @moXJO if Putin kicks sand in the face of the EU, and gets away with it, the EU is toast and everything goes back to the old USSR.
My guess is a negotiated cease fire and find common ground, but China hasn't played its hand yet.
The big all encompassing agreement between Putin and Xi, days before the attack on the Ukraine, doesn't make sense unless it was a precursor to this.
So why hasn't China shown its hand?


----------



## noirua (1 March 2022)

I'm not sure how live this is on ASF so: 





						Al Jazeera Live | Today's latest from Al Jazeera
					

Watch Al Jazeera’s live broadcast now




					www.aljazeera.com


----------



## The Triangle (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on @moXJO if Putin kicks sand in the face of the EU, and gets away with it, the EU is toast and everything goes back to the old USSR.
> My guess is a negotiated cease fire and find common ground, but China hasn't played its hand yet.
> The big all encompassing agreement between Putin and Xi, days before the attack on the Ukraine, doesn't make sense unless it was a precursor to this.
> So why hasn't China shown its hand?



I think China already played its hand?

They are sitting back saying to all the African/Asian/South American countries 'look at Russia, look at the US, look at the EU - they are a bunch of childish war mongering turkeys.  Come do business with us, we're stable and forward thinking'   China gains a lot more by exploiting developing nations and displacing the traditional Euro/American influence.   China doesn't have much to gain by taking Taiwan and this little Russia-Ukraine war would have certainly dampened the mood in China for doing anything silly.  

If I were China I would be sitting back with a bag of prawn crackers waiting for Russia to start begging me for better economic ties.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So why hasn't China shown its hand?




Maybe it doesn't want to be cut off from the West economically , to whom it sells all its cheap trash.


----------



## Investoradam (1 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> China has their issues as well, but can't deny the effort their government puts in to bettering the living conditions of *most* of their own people (except the Uyghurs, minorities, dissenters, etc)
> 
> Putin has only ever looked after himself and his mates (who are only his mates because he lets them rob billions off Russians) and Russia has gone backwards in 20 years.  Deep down I can't imagine XI or China has much time for Putin and they probably only deal with him out of necessity and to piss off the west a little.



and the Xi and billionairs in china arent doing the same thing? Russia and china are the same


----------



## Knobby22 (1 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> I think China already played its hand?
> 
> They are sitting back saying to all the African/Asian/South American countries 'look at Russia, look at the US, look at the EU - they are a bunch of childish war mongering turkeys.  Come do business with us, we're stable and forward thinking'   China gains a lot more by exploiting developing nations and displacing the traditional Euro/American influence.   China doesn't have much to gain by taking Taiwan and this little Russia-Ukraine war would have certainly dampened the mood in China for doing anything silly.
> 
> If I were China I would be sitting back with a bag of prawn crackers waiting for Russia to start begging me for better economic ties.



If Russia isn't careful it will become a client nation of China.


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

Big arse column. Hope they negotiate peace as its about to result in a huge amount of  pointless deaths for both sides. It's about to get very ugly. 

All these young guys that don't want to be there and doing what their government is telling them to. Despite knowing its wrong. Some lessons for the West in there.


----------



## PZ99 (1 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Big arse column. Hope they negotiate peace as its about to result in a huge amount of  pointless deaths for both sides. It's about to get very ugly.
> 
> All these young guys that don't want to be there and doing what their government is telling them to. Despite knowing its wrong. Some lessons for the West in there.




Is it just me or does that column look totally exposed to an air attack ?


----------



## Ferret (1 March 2022)

There's something fishy going on.  Russia has the firepower to smash Ukraine.  

They seem to be holding back.  I don't know why.  It doesn't match with Putin's rhetoric.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 March 2022)




----------



## Knobby22 (1 March 2022)

Ferret said:


> There's something fishy going on.  Russia has the firepower to smash Ukraine.



They will.


----------



## wayneL (1 March 2022)

Ferret said:


> There's something fishy going on.  Russia has the firepower to smash Ukraine.
> 
> They seem to be holding back.  I don't know why.  It doesn't match with Putin's rhetoric.



I readily admit that I have no idea what the frack is going on over there... I mean what is really going on, beyond the obvious propaganda all over the goddamn place.

But yeah it's very sus in my opinion too.

However, I am pretty sure that we will find out that the truth is significantly different than the narrative, in due course.


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

Ferret said:


> There's something fishy going on.  Russia has the firepower to smash Ukraine.
> 
> They seem to be holding back.  I don't know why.  It doesn't match with Putin's rhetoric.



Originally they thought they could wipe out the current government and not inflict too many civilian casualties.
That's changed.
Next couple days or possibly hours we will see a much harder line.


----------



## Ferret (1 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Originally they thought they could wipe out the current government and not inflict too many civilian casualties.
> That's changed.
> Next couple days or possibly hours we will see a much harder line.



Yes, I fear you're right and things are going to get much worse for the Ukrainian people.


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Is it just me or does that column look totally exposed to an air attack ?



The Turkish ayraktar TB-2 drones would cause troubles to smaller units. But russia apparently studied these drones in Libya where they were pretty easy to shoot down (apparently). They would have early warning radar and counter drone defense systems among that line backed up with air support.

 These drones are about $5mill unarmed and $10mill armed. It's completely changed warfare imo. And I'd hate to be a soldier now.


----------



## StockyGuy (1 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> The Turkish ayraktar TB-2 drones would cause troubles to smaller units. But russia apparently studied these drones in Libya where they were pretty easy to shoot down (apparently). They would have early warning radar and counter drone defense systems among that line backed up with air support.
> 
> These drones are about $5mill unarmed and $10mill armed. It's completely changed warfare imo. And I'd hate to be a soldier now.




Speaking of matters Turkey, it's a bad enemy to have permanently just south of you.  Not saying they're an enemy of Russia yet - but they seem to be favouring Ukraine, as would be expected of a NATO member.

I think Putin makes a show of being the madman who'll wreck the planet with nukes etc.  But aaaaaaaactually he's an extremely coldly calculating thug.  Not actually nuts, just wanting to be taken as such for leverage.  Although if he becomes very frustrated he might do irrational things. 

Turkey on the other hand is actually bonkers lol.  They shot down a Russian jet in 2015.  Russia could only meekly impose a few sanctions on Turkey in response.

Turkey is like that scrawny runt arguing with the big guy.  You think the big guy is gonna crush the lad if he won't pipe down.  Nek minute the psycho runt just escalates out of nowhere with a devastatingly maiming punch to the nose, with resultant gushing blood and dazed and confused mental state.


----------



## noirua (1 March 2022)

Ukraine accepts Bitcoin, Ethereum, USDT donations amid ongoing war
					

After initial suspicion that its Twitter accounts had been hacked, Ukrainian Ambassador Olexander Scherba confirmed the legitimacy of tweets from Ukraine requesting crypto donations.




					cointelegraph.com


----------



## The Triangle (2 March 2022)

Former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder loses entire staff after refusing to resign from Russian energy company boards
					

Gerhard Schroeder, known to be a close friend of Vladimir Putin, has come under criticism for profiting from the Russian regime




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Imagine how the media would go bonkers if Bush or Trump were board members for Russian companies right now? I don't think Schröder is going to come out of this conflict in a very good position.    It's clear A lot of people in Europe are going hard after anyone who doesn't denounce Putin.  

_According to the report, a total of four employees, including Funk, quit their jobs at Schröder's office over the issue._

There still must be a lot of Russian assets high up in the German government and military.


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2022)

I  understand pushing the Russian people to dispose of Putin. But I'm seeing a lot of hate for the Russian people. Along with some punishing sanctions that will destroy their lives. 

Germany suffered the after effects of ww1 with punishment of the people. Producing a much stronger response as everyone had enough of living like sht. 
West seems to currently be in the position of who can out do the other. 

Russian people are not the problem. Even many of the soldiers are breaking rank. The problem is government.


----------



## basilio (2 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I  understand pushing the Russian people to dispose of Putin. But I'm seeing a lot of hate for the Russian people. Along with some punishing sanctions that will destroy their lives.
> 
> Germany suffered the after effects of ww1 with punishment of the people. Producing a much stronger response as everyone had enough of living like sht.
> West seems to currently be in the position of who can out do the other.
> ...




Talk about confusing and conflating history and now.

Yes the  1919 Versaille agreement was a disaster for the German people and effectively ruined the country. The Allies attempted to make Germany pay war reparations that were impossible to meet.

The current sanctions against Russia are, just for once, largely aimed at Putin and his direct super rich supporters. The economic sanctions against the Central Bank are crippling the economy so yes there there is real pressure on the normal Russians as well. Will the sanctions cause an about face or result in Putin being removed? Obviously hard to say. But finally and for once there has been concerted  world wide effort to protect a country from naked aggression.

Interestingly enough the US role has been important but it's the European countries that have  been leaders  in supporting President Zelensky and his determination to fight for his country.

I also disagree that people are "hating" the Russians. From my perspective it seems clear that this is seen as Putins war and the Russian people have very little say  or support for it.  So I don't think countries are gunning for Russians as such.


----------



## PZ99 (2 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I  understand pushing the Russian people to dispose of Putin. But I'm seeing a lot of hate for the Russian people. Along with some punishing sanctions that will destroy their lives.
> 
> Germany suffered the after effects of ww1 with punishment of the people. Producing a much stronger response as everyone had enough of living like sht.
> West seems to currently be in the position of who can out do the other.
> ...



Speaking of government - I think now would be a good time for Israel to decide whose side they're on.

All very well having ties with Russia but frankly I reckon they owe us one.

There's a 60km line of Russian tanks all exposed like shags on a rock just waiting for a airstrike


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Speaking of government - I think now would be a good time for Israel to decide whose side they're on.
> 
> All very well having ties with Russia but frankly I reckon they owe us one.
> 
> There's a 60km line of Russian tanks all exposed like shags on a rock just waiting for a airstrike



Macron is conspicuous by his absence, isn't he trying to step up into the big chair for the EU?


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Talk about confusing and conflating history and now.
> 
> Yes the  1919 Versaille agreement was a disaster for the German people and effectively ruined the country. The Allies attempted to make Germany pay war reparations that were impossible to meet.
> 
> ...



Sure thing. The roubles gone to nothing and there's a bank run. Sure it will work out. Companies pulling products from Russia. But yeah it's "targeted at Putin". Pain is pain. It amazes me that people are so stupid that they think people living there will support rather then galvanise against it.

The fact you can't even make a comparison says a lot.



He's a Democrat that slept with a Chinese spy by the way.

Social media is full of examples of Russian small business being bombed with hate messages along with "stacking Russian bodies" in Ukraine.

The world helping?
Tell me what government sent troops?
It's people not government going to help.
US was still buying Russian oil ffs.


----------



## PZ99 (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Macron is conspicuous by his absence, isn't he trying to step up into the big chair for the EU?



Macron is missing because I emailed Dutto to tell him to get staffed


----------



## IFocus (2 March 2022)

Talking to some one about Putin who had spent time in Russia the other day, he said most didn't like or trust Putin, knew he was a criminal etc but wouldn't get rid of him because they could end up with some one worst, a very Slavic view of the world.


----------



## The Triangle (2 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> .....but wouldn't get rid of him because they could end up with some one worst.....



Scomo


----------



## IFocus (3 March 2022)

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen forced to defend Putin links​Presidential candidate criticised over campaign leaflet featuring her with Russian leader









						French far-right leader Marine Le Pen forced to defend Putin links
					

Presidential candidate criticised over campaign leaflet featuring her with Russian leader




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## IFocus (3 March 2022)

It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​
A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated

Of course the most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign, including with Trump himself, who spent the campaign and the four years of his presidency groveling before Putin, denying the reality of Russian interference, and changing first the Republican platform and then US policy to serve Putin’s agendas. *This included cutting support for Ukraine against Russia out of the Republican platform when he won the primary, considerable animosity toward Nato,* *and ultimately trying to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in 2019 by withholding military aid while demanding he offer confirmation of a Russian conspiracy theory blaming Ukraine rather than Russia for 2016 election interference.*











						It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin nexus | Rebecca Solnit
					

A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Scomo



Nah ... Dutton.


----------



## basilio (3 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​
> A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated
> 
> Of course the most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign, including with Trump himself, who spent the campaign and the four years of his presidency groveling before Putin, denying the reality of Russian interference, and changing first the Republican platform and then US policy to serve Putin’s agendas. *This included cutting support for Ukraine against Russia out of the Republican platform when he won the primary, considerable animosity toward Nato,* *and ultimately trying to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in 2019 by withholding military aid while demanding he offer confirmation of a Russian conspiracy theory blaming Ukraine rather than Russia for 2016 election interference.*
> ...




And Trump has always admired Putins toughness and political genius.  I understand that next to moi Putin represented the worlds next greatest  most stable genius.
_____________________________________________________________________
That story is a very powerful analysis of just how deep Russia was into US politics and in particular Trumps administration. Worth realising as we see just some of the consequences of Donald Trumps political machinations.


----------



## basilio (3 March 2022)

*The other side of the war*

Interesting story on the ABC on how the breakway separatist state view the situation. Some excellent historical background as well. These were the regions that original USSR had seen millions of Russians to when Stalin had attempted to starve the Ukraine population during the 1930's 









						To the West, Russia's invasion is seen as vicious and unjustified. Not here
					

Foreign Correspondent spends a week inside the alternative reality of the "anti-fascist" Donetsk People's Republic in the lead-up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​
> A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated
> 
> Of course the most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign, including with Trump himself, who spent the campaign and the four years of his presidency groveling before Putin, denying the reality of Russian interference, and changing first the Republican platform and then US policy to serve Putin’s agendas. *This included cutting support for Ukraine against Russia out of the Republican platform when he won the primary, considerable animosity toward Nato,* *and ultimately trying to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in 2019 by withholding military aid while demanding he offer confirmation of a Russian conspiracy theory blaming Ukraine rather than Russia for 2016 election interference.*
> ...



This is probably one of the largest mound of sht I've ever read. Who wrote this steaming pile?
 Oh it's the "Guardian" carry on.


----------



## basilio (3 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> This is probably one of the largest mound of sht I've ever read. Who wrote this steaming pile?
> Oh it's the "Guardian" carry on.



Of course Moxjo.  As usual totally incapable of  engaging with the facts.  Just follows "The Great Leaders" directions and declares its fake news.

Just for everyones interest I'll post the story.  You'll notice a lot of URL's there that will take people back to the various crims and shonks who were the Putin Russian connection. 

Just in case we conveniently forget.


----------



## basilio (3 March 2022)

It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​Rebecca Solnit






A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated





‘The most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign.’ 

Photograph: Joe Marino/UPI/Rex/Shutterstock
Wed 2 Mar 2022 06.22 EST
Last modified on Wed 2 Mar 2022 17.48 EST

In 2014, the Putin regime invaded Ukraine’s Crimea. In 2016, the same regime invaded the United States. The former took place as a conventional military operation; the latter was a spectacular case of cyberwarfare, including disinformation that it was happening at all and promulgation of a lot of talking points still devoutly repeated by many. It was a vast social-media influencing project that took many forms as it sought to sow discord and confusion, even attempting to dissuade Black voters from voting.

Additionally, Russian intelligence targeted voter rolls in all 50 states, which is not thought to have had consequences, but demonstrated the reach and ambition of online interference. This weekend, British investigative journalist Carole Cadwalladr said on Twitter, “We failed to acknowledge Russia had staged a military attack on the West. We called it ‘meddling.’ We used words like ‘interference.’ It wasn’t. It was warfare. We’ve been under military attack for eight years now.”

As she notes, Putin’s minions were not only directing their attention to the United States, and included pro-Brexit efforts and support for France’s far-right racist National Front party. The US interference – you could call it cyberwarfare, or informational invasion – took many forms. Stunningly, a number of left-wing news sources and pundits devoted themselves to denying the reality of the intervention and calling those who were hostile to the Putin regime cold-war red-scare right-wingers, as if contemporary Russia was a glorious socialist republic rather than a country ruled by a dictatorial ex-KGB agent with a record of murdering journalists, imprisoning dissenters, embezzling tens of billions and leading a global neofascist white supremacist revival. In discrediting the news stories and attacking critics of the Russian government, they provided crucial cover for Trump.

In her 2019 testimony to House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, former National Security Agency staffer Fiona Hill declared, “Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. This is the public conclusion of our intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan congressional reports. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified. The impact of the successful 2016 Russian campaign remains evident today. Our nation is being torn apart; truth is questioned; our highly professional expert career Foreign Service is being undermined. US support for Ukraine, which continues to face armed aggression, is being politicized. President Putin and the Russian security services aim to counter US foreign policy objectives in Europe, including in Ukraine, where Moscow wishes to reassert political and economic dominance.”

The assertions of interference were compelling all along. On 7 October 2016, US intelligence agencies released a bombshell press release declaring “The US Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations.” In one of the weirdest days in US political history, the Access Hollywood tape of Trump boasting about sexually assaulting women was released half an hour later, and half an hour after that, “WikiLeaks began tweeting links to emails hacked from the personal account of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta.” WikiLeaks is thought to have gotten its material from the Russian intelligence agency GRU; longtime Republican operative and Trump ally Roger Stone appears to have been a liaison between WikiLeaks and the Trump team.

On 30 October 2016, then-Senate Majority Leader Harry Reidput out a furious letter to then-FBI director James Comey, charging “it has become clear that you possess explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government – a foreign interest hostile to the United States, which Trump praises at every opportunity.” He demanded, unsuccessfully, that Comey publicize this information. On 31 October, Obama contacted called Putin on the nuclear risk reductions hotline to demand he stop this interference, but the public didn’t know about this until after Trump had lost the popular vote but won the electoral college.

Of course the most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign, including with Trump himself, who spent the campaign and the four years of his presidency groveling before Putin, denying the reality of Russian interference, and changing first the Republican platform and then US policy to serve Putin’s agendas. This included cutting support for Ukraine against Russia out of the Republican platform when he won the primary, considerable animosity toward Nato, and ultimately trying to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy in 2019 by withholding military aid while demanding he offer confirmation of a Russian conspiracy theory blaming Ukraine rather than Russia for 2016 election interference.

A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Russian government. They included Paul Manafort, who during his years in Ukraine worked to build Russian influence there and served as a consultant to the Kremlin-backed Ukrainian president who was driven out of the country – and into Russia by popular protest in 2014 (the Russian line is that this was an illegitimate coup and thus a justification for invasion is still widely repeated). Manafort was, during his time in the campaign, sharing data with Russian intelligence agent Konstantin V Kilimnik, while campaign advisor Jeff Sessions was sharing information with the Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak. Manafort, Donald Trump Jr and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner held an illegal meeting in Trump Tower with a Kremlin-linked lawyer on 9 June 2016, where they were promised damaging material on the Clinton campaign.

After being seated next to Putin while being paid to speak at a dinner celebrating RT, Russia’s news propaganda outlet, Michael Flynn briefly became Trump’s national security advisor. He was soon was fired for lying to White House officials and later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador. Jared Kushner allegedly directed him to make those contacts and as the Washington Post reported in May 2017, “Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring.” The Guardian reported the same year that “Donald Trump Jr has been forced to release damning emails that reveal he eagerly embraced what he was told was a Russian government attempt to damage Hillary Clinton’s election campaign.”

What’s striking in retrospect is that all of this was made possible by corruption and amorality inside the United States. It was Silicon Valley’s mercenary amorality that created weapons and vulnerabilities and sat by pocketing the profit as they were exploited to destructive ends. It was corrupt Americans – from Manafort to Trump himself – that gave Putin his influence. It was international players such as WikiLeaks and Cambridge Analytica that helped. It was corruption of media outlets such as Fox News that continued – in Tucker Carlson’s case until last week’s invasion of Ukraine caught up with him – to defend Putin and spread disinformation.

*The Republican party met its new leader by matching his corruption, and by covering up his crimes and protecting him from consequences, including two impeachments. The second impeachment was for a violent invasion of Congress, not by a foreign power, but by right-wingers inflamed by lies instigated by Trump and amplified by many in the party. They have become willing collaborators in an attempt to sabotage free and fair elections, the rule of law, and truth itself.









						It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin nexus | Rebecca Solnit
					

A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Kremlin. The significance of this cannot be overstated




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


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## mullokintyre (3 March 2022)

basilio said:


> It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​Rebecca Solnit
> View attachment 138512
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I spent an hour or so going through the above gaurdian article.
Unfortunately, a lot of the links provided are behind a paywall, so unless you are a subscriber to the WP or NYT, you cannot read them.
The Final Hill depositon contains  says


> Hill learned that an NSC staff member who did not work on Ukraine and for her may have been providing Ukraine-related information to President Trump that Dr. Hill was not made aware of.



Nothing that could be actually used as proof, just  that she "learned". We don't know who or what supplied that learning.
Reading the rest of the deposition, if you took Nunnes testimony at face value, it  suggests that it was the Democrats who were tricked by the Russians.
I would not take his word for it any more than I would take the word of an unnamed source for Hill's testimony.
As for the rest of it, there is no smoking gun, no proof, only allegations.
The so called contact between Kushner and  the Russians according to the guardian came from the Russian Ambassador.
The Guardian raves on about Russian interference, but never stopped to think that this revelation by the Russian Ambassador may be a just another but of Russian game playing?
And at the end of it all, despite Mueller spending two years investigating the so called links with Trump and Russia, what did we get.
One charge of Michael Flynn lying to Authorities. 
And years after the event,  we see the so called Russian dossier was not only a fake, but evidence has emerged that the who fake dossier was paid for by the Democrats.
One has to be so wary of so many of these articles articles, both from the far left, the far right and the middle.
Allegations, third hand reports,  "unnamed insiders" etc.  are euphemisms for raising red flags.
Whatever Trumps many faults were, being in cahoots with Russia was not one of them, at least not based on the flimsy evidence the article puts up.
Mick


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## basilio (3 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, I spent an hour or so going through the above gaurdian article.
> Unfortunately, a lot of the links provided are behind a paywall, so unless you are a subscriber to the WP or NYT, you cannot read them.
> The Final Hill depositon contains  says
> 
> ...




I'm glad  you took the trouble of going to the sources of how the Russians interfered with the US Elections and the role of the Trump administration in these efforts.

One of these links was  a transcript of the testimony of the David Holmes and Fiona Hill to the  House Intelligence Committee. When you read through the transcript it is crystal clear how much pressure Trump was attempting to put on the Ukraine government to investigate any possible allegations that could undermine Joe Bidens son.  There is much more as well. 

The link seemed to work for me. You can get a limited number of free stories so perhaps download it and check it out.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...testimony-front-house-intelligence-committee/


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## basilio (3 March 2022)

Again on the links which demonstrated just how involved Russia was in creating lies and conflict in the US before the 2016 election.
US intelligence uncovered scores of fake Facebook and Internet accounts  created  by a Russian " troll" farm.  One of the highlights of their success was setting a super strong fake Right wing Texas secessionist group , then a militant Islamic  support group and then creating a series of protests between the groups !
_
A sprawling Russian disinformation campaign aimed at influencing the 2016 elections found success with social media accounts promoting the idea of Texas secession, according to a report commissioned by the U.S. Senate that was released Monday.

When it came to stirring up social divisions and exerting political influence, two accounts about the Lone Star State proved especially effective: a “Heart of Texas” Facebook page and a @rebeltexas account on Instagram.

In at least one case, Heart of Texas’ vitriolic posts resulted in dueling protests outside a Houston mosque during the 2016 election cycle.

As the page announced a rally on May 21, 2016 outside the Islamic Da'wah Center to “Stop Islamification of Texas,” a separate Russian-sponsored group, United Muslims of America, advertised a “Save Islamic Knowledge” rally for the same place and time. Interactions between the two groups eventually escalated into confrontation and verbal attacks.

That Russian groups were behind both protests came to light in late 2017, when federal lawmakers released a cache of information about the extent Russian operatives made use of Facebook during the 2016 presidential campaign.









						Texas secession was a key theme in Russian disinformation campaign during 2016 elections, report says
					

The Russian-based Internet Research Agency used two social media accounts in particular – "Heart of Texas" on Facebook and @rebeltexas on Instagram – to spread falsehoods and exert divisions during the 2016 elections, according to a new report.




					www.texastribune.org
				



_


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## mullokintyre (3 March 2022)

basilio said:


> I'm glad  you took the trouble of going to the sources of how the Russians interfered with the US Elections and the role of the Trump administration in these efforts.
> 
> One of these links was  a transcript of the testimony of the David Holmes and Fiona Hill to the  House Intelligence Committee. When you read through the transcript it is crystal clear how much pressure Trump was attempting to put on the Ukraine government to investigate any possible allegations that could undermine Joe Bidens son.  There is much more as well.
> 
> ...



As I said, I read the original deposition from Hill and Holmes, but it provided no proof other than her hearing that that someone "may" be providing info to the Russians. 
However,  I also read the rest of the document which provided a transcript of the depositon by Nunnes. 
I  have no idea if you read that far, but as I said, it takes a very different tack.
But in the end, none of the depositions provide any proof from either side.
Everybody reads into these things what they want to read.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (3 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Again on the links which demonstrated just how involved Russia was in creating lies and conflict in the US before the 2016 election.
> US intelligence uncovered scores of fake Facebook and Internet accounts  created  by a Russian " troll" farm.  One of the highlights of their success was setting a super strong fake Right wing Texas secessionist group , then a militant Islamic  support group and then creating a series of protests between the groups !
> 
> _A sprawling Russian disinformation campaign aimed at influencing the 2016 elections found success with social media accounts promoting the idea of Texas secession, according to a report commissioned by the U.S. Senate that was released Monday.
> ...



This along with the first part of the original article you mentioned, where Russian interference was mentioned, which I suspect is correct,
 has nothing to do with Trump, other than the article saying it came to light  when the feds released a cache of information during the 2016 presidential campaign.
The fact that it was put in an article saying we need to investigate Russian and trump links, tells more about the sleight of hand of so called independent journalists.
Mick


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## moXJO (3 March 2022)

basilio said:


> It’s time to confront the Trump-Putin network​Rebecca Solnit
> View attachment 138512
> 
> 
> ...



There is no proof. It's all just long shots and guilty by association.


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## basilio (3 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As I said, I read the original deposition from Hill and Holmes, but it provided no proof other than her hearing that that someone "may" be providing info to the Russians.
> However,  I also read the rest of the document which provided a transcript of the depositon by Nunnes.
> I  have no idea if you read that far, but as I said, it takes a very different tack.
> But in the end, none of the depositions provide any proof from either side.
> ...




Hmm. Couple of points Mick
1) Nunnes *only* role in the hearing was to categorically deny that the Trump administration had ever done anything wrong in any way and that the entire situation a cooked up load of Democrat lies. So that's what he had to say.

2) The statements and questioning of David Holme and Fiona Hill are of two long term career diplomats. They have served under US administtrations from the mid 80's.* They saw, heard and detailed the efforts of Trumps staff to  use US-Ukranian diplomatic relations as a lever to undermine Joe Biden.* The same Trump staff were also determined to support Russian attempts to pin 2016 electoral interference on Ukraine rather than Russia.

*The critical point of the Senate inquiry was whether Donald Trump had attempted to cajole/persuade/force the new Ukraine President into announcing inquiries into Biden as a condition for receiving US support. *On the way to this conversation there are a series of interventions by Guilani and others to make the career diplomats acquiesce to this  effort.

There are 109 pages of testimony and questioning.  The statements by the career diplomats of what had transpired as well as Trumps appointed ambassador all come to the same conclusion.  Trump was determined to use international diplomacy to attack his political rival.
This was the point of the inquiry.

If, as you stated, you read through even a large part of the testimony I cannot understand how you missed all of this evidence.

*In the coming days, Congress will determine what response is appropriate. If the president abused his power and invited foreign interference in our elections, if he sought to condition, coerce, extort or bribe a vulnerable ally into conducting investigations to aid his re-election campaign and did so by withholding official acts -- a White House meeting or hundreds of millions of dollars of needed military aid -- it will be up -- it will be for us to decide whether those acts are compatible with the Office of the Presidency.*


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## moXJO (3 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Hmm. Couple of points Mick
> 1) Nunnes *only* role in the hearing was to categorically deny that the Trump administration had ever done anything wrong in any way and that the entire situation a cooked up load of Democrat lies. So that's what he had to say.
> 
> 2) The statements and questioning of David Holme and Fiona Hill are of two long term career diplomats. They have served under US administtrations from the mid 80's.* They saw, heard and detailed the efforts of Trumps staff to  use US-Ukranian diplomatic relations as a lever to undermine Joe Biden.* The same Trump staff were also determined to support Russian attempts to pin 2016 electoral interference on Ukraine rather than Russia.
> ...



You're about 0 out of a thousand so far. And still reaching.


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## noirua (3 March 2022)

Russian oligarch Alisher Usmanov’s $600M yacht seized in Germany: reports
					

Authorities in Germany this week seized a lavish $600 million yacht belonging to a Russian oligarch, according to reports.




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

Obviously Trump must be getting traction, everyone on ASF is in panic mode. Lol


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## noirua (3 March 2022)

China says no to sanctioning Russia amid Ukraine bombardment, vows to continue 'normal trade cooperation'
					

China on Wednesday said it would not consider sanctioning Russia for its illegal invasion of Ukraine and said it will continue with "normal trade cooperation."




					www.foxnews.com
				











						Ukrainian port city mayor reports mass casualties
					

Mayor of Ukrainian city Mariupol reports mass casualties as it suffers attacks from Russian forces.




					www.foxnews.com


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## IFocus (3 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> This is probably one of the largest mound of sht I've ever read. Who wrote this steaming pile?
> Oh it's the "Guardian" carry on.





It actually just quotes stuff already in the public domain nothing new much was actually evidence given by the participants named but you know fake news eh.


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## PZ99 (4 March 2022)

Market dive on - is this the fire at nuke plant report ?









						Putin likens Western sanctions to war as Russian assault traps Ukrainian civilians
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Western sanctions were akin to war as his forces pressed their assault on Ukraine on Saturday for a 10th day and the IMF warned the conflict would have a "severe impact" on the global economy.




					www.reuters.com


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## Knobby22 (4 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Market dive on - is this the fire at nuke plant report ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Di Heads. They are pretty average with their missiles.


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## moXJO (4 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> It actually just quotes stuff already in the public domain nothing new much was actually evidence given by the participants named but you know fake news eh.



It quotes a bunch of rubbish and innuendo.


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## IFocus (4 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> It quotes a bunch of rubbish and innuendo.





Like what?


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## moXJO (4 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Like what?



Go back through the Trump thread and reread all the posts on trump/Russia connection. It ended up a bunch of bs along with the whole Russiagate. We could probably get more Russian links out of Hillary/Biden. 

Trump imposed some of the harshest sanctions on putin and I'm sure Biden reversed them. Trump sent military hardware while Biden/Obama sent the equivalent of blankets. I also doubt that Putin would have entered Ukraine under Trump. Trump has zero political decorum. 
His calls on nato were correct imo.

But still they try and stretch any link into a supposed "fact".
To pull up on each dumb allegation in that article takes time when it was already debunked before.
 Just like he was supposedly "Going to jail" in the other thread. How many times before it stops being luck?


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## basilio (5 March 2022)

Came across this analysis of the causes of the current Russian invasion of Ukraine. It references a lecture delivered in 2015 which developed a case that The West was to blame for problems in the Ukraine. 
Well worth checking out IMV.


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## sptrawler (6 March 2022)

I always knew it was the Wests fault @basilio , maybe we should set up a go fund me page for Putin? 🤣


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## StockyGuy (6 March 2022)

Looking on the bright side, we may have found the solution for global warming.  Fuel is unaffordable.  But if that's not enough, a nuclear winter for the next few hundred years should keep those rays at bay


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## moXJO (6 March 2022)

Interesting thing going on in Twitter. Authoritarian lefties fully support Ukraine and cnn narrative.

Libertarian lefties are saying Obama started the Ukraine war via coup back in 2014. Followed up by negative Russian disinformation.
And now propaganda.
They don't support what Russia is doing. But say it is and was started by the US warmongers.


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Looking on the bright side, we may have found the solution for global warming.




A nuclear winter ?


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## StockyGuy (6 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A nuclear winter ?




Huh?  Lol, that's literally what I wrote but it wasn't in the quote you used.  It's cool though.  Was more amusing than my tasteless gallows humour


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## StockyGuy (6 March 2022)

As always hard to separate fact from fiction, but maybe some interesting insights into the cloak and dagger mechanics of failed attempts to take out Zelenskyy here:


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## Knobby22 (6 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Interesting thing going on in Twitter. Authoritarian lefties fully support Ukraine and cnn narrative.
> 
> Libertarian lefties are saying Obama started the Ukraine war via coup back in 2014. Followed up by negative Russian disinformation.
> And now propaganda.
> They don't support what Russia is doing. But say it is and was started by the US warmongers.



Hard right wing crazies are also blaming Obama and are pro Putin to knock off the Jewish heritage President of Ukraine  close the whatever the latest crazy conspiracy theory is going in their heads and enforce social conservatism. Putin doesn't put up with guys, women's rights, BLM etc.

Yes, once again the far right and far left are on the same side against everyone else. It is known as the horse shoe effect.


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Huh?  Lol, that's literally what I wrote but it wasn't in the quote you used.  It's cool though.  Was more amusing than my tasteless gallows humour




Sorry , I completely omitted to see that you had actually written 'nuclear winter'. Should read more carefully.


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## moXJO (6 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Hard right wing crazies are also blaming Obama and are pro Putin to knock off the Jewish heritage President of Ukraine  close the whatever the latest crazy conspiracy theory is going in their heads and enforce social conservatism. Putin doesn't put up with guys, women's rights, BLM etc.
> 
> Yes, once again the far right and far left are on the same side against everyone else. It is known as the horse shoe effect.



This whole 'Ukraine war' thing has a very manipulated history.


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## basilio (6 March 2022)

The first open bounty on Putin.Offered by a Russian entrepreneur  who (naturally) doesn't currently live in Russia.  California seems a lot safer. (But I wouldn't count on it.)









						The man who put a $1 million bounty on Putin believes the dictator's inner circle will turn on him
					

The same Russian millionaire who placed a $1 million bounty on Putin's head says that Putin's friends will turn their backs on him.




					fortune.com


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2022)

basilio said:


> The first open bounty on Putin.Offered by a Russian entrepreneur  who (naturally) doesn't currently live in Russia.  California seems a lot safer. (But I wouldn't count on it.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good luck with that.

$1 million won't even buy an outer suburbs house in Sydney these days.


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## macca (6 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> $1 million won't even buy an outer suburbs house in Sydney these days.




$1m US would buy half of Moscow wouldn't it ? 

I read the rouble is worth less than one US cent at present


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2022)

macca said:


> $1m US would buy half of Moscow wouldn't it ?
> 
> I read the rouble is worth less than one US cent at present



Too cold. 🌨️


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## StockyGuy (7 March 2022)

Just a random observation.  It might seem off that the world's largest nation by landmass, almost double that of the second, needs more land.  There's likely an implicit understanding that without ongoing expansion Russia will always be under pressure to contract due to the myriad separatist movements.

Putin thought the West perceives Ukraine as acceptably part of his Frankenstein mess of states that don't really fit together.  (He also thought the Ukrainians would be more accepting of that.)  But the West's consensus seems to be that it's peripheral Europe.  But periphery is NOT core, hence the headaches.  Their steadfast resistance certainly makes the West want to help them.  It was good to see the usually neutral Switzerland join in the sanctions against the dictator's regime.


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## SirRumpole (7 March 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Just a random observation.  It might seem off that the world's largest nation by landmass, almost double that of the second, needs more land.  There's likely an implicit understanding that without ongoing expansion Russia will always be under pressure to contract due to the myriad separatist movements.
> 
> Putin thought the West perceives Ukraine as acceptably part of his Frankenstein mess of states that don't really fit together.  (He also thought the Ukrainians would be more accepting of that.)  But the West's consensus seems to be that it's peripheral Europe.  But periphery is NOT core, hence the headaches.  Their steadfast resistance certainly makes the West want to help them.  It was good to see the usually neutral Switzerland join in the sanctions against the dictator's regime.




Russia's invasion was brutal an unprovoked and they deserve all the sanctions against them.

I wonder though if a settlement could be reached by declaring Ukraine a neutral zone, no weapons there either Russian or the West , Ukraine becomes another Switzerland.

Everyone just gets out and lets the Ukrainians get on with their lives.

Probably too late for that, I think Putin is motivated by an emperor delusion, but if he suddenly goes it might be a solution.


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## IFocus (7 March 2022)

The Ukraine threat to Putin is that its a liberal democracy a right wing dictator cannot have that on his door step.


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## basilio (8 March 2022)

A view of the war from a Russian novelist.  He doesn't live in Russia and after reading the story one will appreciate he would not last long in the current regime.





Mikhail Shishkin​Mikhail Shishkin is a Russian novelist living in Switzerland. He is the only author to have won the Russian Booker Prize, the Russian National Bestseller, and Big Book Prize. His books have been translated into 30 languages


*The real Russia is a country of literature and music, not the bombardment of children. Putin’s war brings disgrace on us all*

Mikhail Shishkin is a Russian novelist





‘All critical statements regarding Russia and its war will be considered treason and punished according to martial law.’ Police in Moscow’s Manezhnaya Square. Photograph: Kirill Kudryavtsev/AFP/Getty Images
Mon 7 Mar 2022 06.57 EST
Last modified on Mon 7 Mar 2022 11.58 EST

668
I’m a Russian. Vladimir Putin is committing monstrous crimes in the name of my people, my country, and me. Putin is not Russia. Russia is hurt and ashamed. In the name of my Russia and my people I beg the Ukrainians’ forgiveness. Yet I realise that nothing being done there can be forgiven.

This war did not begin just now but in 2014, with Putin’s seizure of Crimea. The western world refused to understand the gravity of this and pretended nothing terrible was going on. All these years I’ve been trying in my statements and publications to explain to people just who Putin is. It hasn’t worked. And now Putin himself has explained it to everyone.

Whenever one of my articles is published in the press in Switzerland, where I live, the editors receive letters of outrage from people at the Russian embassy in Berne. They’re silent now. Maybe they’re packing their bags and applying for political asylum?

I want to return to Russia. But which Russia? In Putin’s Russia it’s impossible to breathe. The stench from the policeman’s boot is too strong. I will return to my country. As I wrote in an open letter when I refused to represent Putin’s Russia at an international event back in 2013, before Crimea was annexed: “I want to and will represent another Russia, my Russia, free of impostors, a country with a state structure that defends not the right to corruption but the rights of the individual, a country with free media, free elections, and free people.”









						My dear Russians – the Ukrainians are fighting Putin’s army for their freedom, and ours | Mikhail Shishkin
					

The real Russia is a country of literature and music, not the bombardment of children, says Russian novelist Mikhail Shishkin




					www.theguardian.com


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2022)

If you believe in the Biblical anit-Christ and the end of days, I reckon we are pretty close right now.


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2022)

Former MI6 chief says Russian invasion of Ukraine is not sustainable​








						Russia cannot sustain its invasion of Ukraine, says former MI6 chief
					

A former head of British spy agency MI6 says Russia cannot maintain its war with Ukraine due to the size of the country and the will of the Ukrainian people.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Knobby22 (8 March 2022)

Good to see Sweden helping.


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## SirRumpole (9 March 2022)

Vladimir Putin’s biggest mistake of the Ukraine war so far? Trusting the Western financial system​








						Ten days ago, the West did the unthinkable — and Putin didn't see it coming
					

The television has been telling Russians things are normal. But Russians' fridges, ATMs, and their blocked Visa, Mastercard and ApplePay accounts are all telling them something else, writes Peter Martin.




					www.abc.net.au


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## PZ99 (9 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Vladimir Putin’s biggest mistake of the Ukraine war so far? Trusting the Western financial system​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heh.. I would've thought that was everyone's mistake


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## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

The flaws with NATO.s lack of military spending, that Trump highlighted are starting to show up, Poland wants to give Ukraine its old obsolete Mig 29's and get the U.S to give them F-16 planes in return.








						US rejects Poland's offer to help bolster Ukraine's air power with MiG jets
					

The Pentagon remains wary of joining and potentially widening the ongoing conflict, but it is continuing to look at what can be done to support Ukraine without provoking retaliation from Russia.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Ukraine has been pleading for more warplanes and Washington has been looking at a proposal under which Poland would supply Ukraine with the MiG-29s and in turn receive American F-16s.

The Polish government also appealed to other owners of MiG-29 jets to follow suit.

Former Soviet-bloc NATO members Bulgaria and Slovakia also still have Soviet-made fighter jets in their air forces.
The handover of Poland's 28 Soviet-made MiG-29s would signal Western resolve to do more to deter Russia.

Militarily, it would be unlikely to be a game changer.  The number of aircraft is relatively small.

The MiG-29s also are inferior to more sophisticated Russian aircraft and could be easy prey for Russian pilots and Russian missiles.


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## PZ99 (9 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The flaws with NATO.s lack of military spending, that Trump highlighted are starting to show up, Poland wants to give Ukraine its old obsolete Mig 29's and get the U.S to give them F-16 planes in return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



F-16s are just as inferior so it would be a provocative yet pointless exercise and the MiG's didn't exactly set world records during the Bosnian War so Poland are probably just wanting to ditch them to save on maintenance costs 

If anything they're probably better off just giving the MiGs to Ukraine for nothing. It was only the skills of the Russian pilots that made them formidable


----------



## IFocus (9 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The flaws with NATO.s lack of military spending, that Trump highlighted are starting to show up,




Thump hated NATO and actively tried to undermine it, it was Trump who also stop military aid to Ukraine.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

Yes I remember reading the Swiss were buying F-35's, so they might be neutral, but they will have competitive fighters.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Thump hated NATO and actively tried to undermine it, it was Trump who also stop military aid to Ukraine.



The EU brings a lot of its problems on itself, the very reason the U.K got out, Germany going green shutting down nuclear, importing Russian gas and renting Norway's hydro. Priceless
I think you will find Trump hated the way the EU bludged on the U.S regard military spending and did they ever pay back the  the Lend Lease, from the last time they were pulled out of the $hit?.


----------



## moXJO (9 March 2022)

Meanwhile in SA


----------



## Wedgy (9 March 2022)

Is the Ukraine war about to come to a sudden and unexpected end. Reports suggest that the Russian invasion is slowing and low morale within the military. If this is correct we could see a military coup in Russia, with Putin being arrested and held to blame, (Generals:- we were just following orders!). Probably wishful thinking on my part, but if happens will be soon. 

Not without precedent:

1762: A coup by Catherine the Great forced the abdication of Peter III of Russia.
March 15, 1917: Tsar Nicholas II of Russia is forced to abdicate in favor of the Russian Provisional Government, ending the Russian Empire and the Romanov dynasty.
September 1917: Lavr Kornilov attempts to march into Petrograd, dissolve the Petrograd Soviet, and possibly establish a military dictatorship after being appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army by Alexander Kerensky. The coup failed because of a lack of support and mass resistance, but it eroded the Provisional Government's legitimacy and revived the Bolsheviks.
November 7, 1917: The Bolshevik faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party led by Vladimir Lenin overthrows the Russian Provisional Government and forms the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, leading to the Russian Civil War and the formation of the Soviet Union.
August 19 to 21, 1991: A group of Soviet Communist Party hardliners form the State Committee on the State of Emergency and attempt to overthrow President Mikhail Gorbachev in order to reverse his reforms; the coup is suppressed by RSFSR President Boris Yeltsin, weakening the Communist Party's authority and accelerating the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
September 21 to October 4, 1993: Russian President Boris Yeltsin, aided by the Russian Armed Forces, extralegally dissolves the Supreme Soviet and suspends the constitution in response to impeachment proceedings against him.
Just in case i am right, remember where you read it first.


----------



## wayneL (9 March 2022)

Wedgy said:


> Is the Ukraine war about to come to a sudden and unexpected end. Reports suggest that the Russian invasion is slowing and low morale within the military. If this is correct we could see a military coup in Russia, with Putin being arrested and held to blame, (Generals:- we were just following orders!). Probably wishful thinking on my part, but if happens will be soon.
> 
> Not without precedent:
> 
> ...



The old attitude of "ours is not to  reason why, ours is just to do or die" seems to be on the wane.

Perhaps we pawns are starting to think "phuk this”


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> The old attitude of "ours is not to  reason why, ours is just to do or die" seems to be on the wane.
> 
> Perhaps we pawns are starting to think "phuk this”



Wouldn't that be great.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Meanwhile in SA




I'm not sure it's worse than actual war but I've heard more than enough to know that things aren't too good there and that what would be seen as a crisis in Australia is considered perfectly normal there.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 March 2022)

Wedgy said:


> Is the Ukraine war about to come to a sudden and unexpected end.



I certainly hope so but I fear it's the eye of the storm.

There's also the problem that judging by photos in the media etc, the place is already heavily damaged and will take serious effort to fix. Even just things like bridges don't get put back up in week, it's a major task for that alone.


----------



## PZ99 (10 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I certainly hope so but I fear it's the eye of the storm.
> 
> There's also the problem that judging by photos in the media etc, the place is already heavily damaged and will take serious effort to fix. Even just things like bridges don't get put back up in week, it's a major task for that alone.



However that rebuilding will be good for their economy which has been stuck with increasing unemployment for the last decade or more...


----------



## PZ99 (10 March 2022)

This is the e-real WW3 as far as I'm concerned..









						‘Catastrophic’ cyberwar between Ukraine and Russia hasn’t happened (yet), experts say
					

Experts says both sides may understand that large-scale cyber-attacks will result in ‘mutually assured destruction of systems’




					www.theguardian.com
				




I have all my non discretionary bills paid in advance in case our banking system was ever attacked by terrorist nations such as Chi-ussr... No need to chuck notes under the bed if everything's already paid up front


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

How do anti-tank missiles work, and how helpful might they be for Ukraine's soldiers?​








						How Ukraine  is using a powerful weapon that is too difficult for Russians to detect
					

Anti-tank missiles, which can be fired by a single person, seem to be effective against Russia's fleet of invading main battle tanks, writes James Dwyer.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (10 March 2022)

FYI only and in no way should anyone impute what my thoughts are.


----------



## StockyGuy (10 March 2022)

Uploaded yesterday and already over 586k views on YT.  Asking young Russians their view of the big (little) guy, receiving essentially, utterly, negative opinions of him.  Some put it rather neutrally, as you'd expect of people living under a brutal regime.


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2022)

Posted this in another thread. From 6 years ago. Some spot on predictions and interesting perspectives.


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2022)

America tried to deny bio labs in Ukraine. It appears they lied about it and do in fact have them there. The misinformation out there and coming from officials mouths is breathtaking.


----------



## basilio (11 March 2022)

Who are the soldiers behind  the ICBM.s that represent the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction)  policies of the US/Russia.

Very sobering insight into the people who *will* effectively end life on earth if WW3 breaks out in earnest. 









						I was a nuclear missile operator. There have been more near-misses than the world knows | Cole Smith
					

As a 22-year-old I controlled a warhead that could vaporize a metropolis. Since Russia invaded Ukraine, the public is waking up again to the existential dangers of nuclear weapons




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The Triangle (11 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Posted this in another thread. From 6 years ago. Some spot on predictions and interesting perspectives.




This guy is a moron.  Q'anon has more credible arguments.  But I guess these academic f-wits have to always be coming up with these ideas to keep selling books, lectures, interviews, and justifying their positions.   My favourite quote is when he says 'states only use nuclear weapons when they are backed into a corner'  Just flat wrong. The US used nuclear weapons and they were not backed into a corner when they dropped the bombs... 

And there is the overall tone of his views that only the US and Russia are allowed to have opinions.  Ukraine has to be made a buffer state....   No other country or population can make their own decisions....     It's like telling a woman she can't remarry because her crazy ex-husband might get jealous and attack her- and if she does get attacked it's the new man's fault.  

The USSR fell apart and failed.  Nato / the west do not need to respect Russia or any supposed 'sphere' of influence other than the borders of Russia.


----------



## StockyGuy (12 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> This guy is a moron.  Q'anon has more credible arguments.  But I guess these academic f-wits have to always be coming up with these ideas to keep selling books, lectures, interviews, and justifying their positions.   My favourite quote is when he says 'states only use nuclear weapons when they are backed into a corner'  Just flat wrong. The US used nuclear weapons and they were not backed into a corner when they dropped the bombs...
> 
> And there is the overall tone of his views that only the US and Russia are allowed to have opinions.  Ukraine has to be made a buffer state....   No other country or population can make their own decisions....     It's like telling a woman she can't remarry because her crazy ex-husband might get jealous and attack her- and if she does get attacked it's the new man's fault.
> 
> The USSR fell apart and failed.  Nato / the west do not need to respect Russia or any supposed 'sphere' of influence other than the borders of Russia.




I take my hat off to you if you were able to sit through over an hour of that


----------



## moXJO (12 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> This guy is a moron.  Q'anon has more credible arguments.  But I guess these academic f-wits have to always be coming up with these ideas to keep selling books, lectures, interviews, and justifying their positions.   My favourite quote is when he says 'states only use nuclear weapons when they are backed into a corner'  Just flat wrong. The US used nuclear weapons and they were not backed into a corner when they dropped the bombs...
> 
> And there is the overall tone of his views that only the US and Russia are allowed to have opinions.  Ukraine has to be made a buffer state....   No other country or population can make their own decisions....     It's like telling a woman she can't remarry because her crazy ex-husband might get jealous and attack her- and if she does get attacked it's the new man's fault.
> 
> The USSR fell apart and failed.  Nato / the west do not need to respect Russia or any supposed 'sphere' of influence other than the borders of Russia.



I think it's the exact thinking of Russia at this point and their surprise at the west's response. Russia is stuck in an old way of thinking and the west has moved on. Russia will want a buffer between it and the west. And will most likely level cities pro Ukraine.

Younger people are not beholden to the thinking of the past and its a noticeable shift away from old restrictive norms. Ukraine wants independence and Russia still thinks its not in the internet age.

US going into Japan would have been a bloodbath.


----------



## IFocus (12 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> This guy is a moron.  Q'anon has more credible arguments.  But I guess these academic f-wits have to always be coming up with these ideas to keep selling books, lectures, interviews, and justifying their positions.   My favourite quote is when he says 'states only use nuclear weapons when they are backed into a corner'  Just flat wrong. The US used nuclear weapons and they were not backed into a corner when they dropped the bombs...
> 
> And there is the overall tone of his views that only the US and Russia are allowed to have opinions.  Ukraine has to be made a buffer state....   No other country or population can make their own decisions....     It's like telling a woman she can't remarry because her crazy ex-husband might get jealous and attack her- and if she does get attacked it's the new man's fault.
> 
> The USSR fell apart and failed.  Nato / the west do not need to respect Russia or any supposed 'sphere' of influence other than the borders of Russia.




Agree letting Russia make the rules is not a good idea


----------



## basilio (14 March 2022)

When wars escalate numbers of dead and injured  start to become meaningless.   1000, 10,000, 100,000 casualties ?   All too hard to remember the people behind these numbers.

This story from Ukraine looks at the real people being blown to kingdom come. In this case it is some of  the Ukrainian  citizens (not soldiers) incidentally or deliberately killed in this war of attrition.

Having said that at least half a dozen young men  were burned to death in that personnel carrier. But they had no right to be in that village.

I have run out of words for the horror of Putin’s crimes in Ukraine​Andrey Kurkov


We remember the murdered bakers, the postal workers, the animal shelter volunteers and we say: there will be justice

Russia-Ukraine war: latest news






A destroyed armoured personnel carrier stands in the central square of the town of Makariv, 60km west of Kyiv. Photograph: Efrem Lukatsky/AP
Sun 13 Mar 2022 06.15 EDTLast modified on Sun 13 Mar 2022 14.10 EDT


Before, my wife and I hardly ever ate bread. At least, if we weren’t in the village where we sometimes spend weekends away from our home in Kyiv. The bread we bought in the village was always tastier than the city stuff. In the Ukrainian countryside, there is a long tradition of having plenty of bread on the table and of eating it with butter and salt or dipping it in milk. Bread dipped in fresh cow’s milk was also given to little kids and they loved it.

Since arriving in western Ukraine, where like hundreds of thousands of my fellow countrymen my family has sought relative safety, we find ourselves eating much more bread than before.

Our boys have always loved fresh bread. They enjoy making and eating sandwiches. In our village shop, we would buy our favourite Makariv loaf – a soft, white, brick-shaped loaf. It was baked at the well-known Makariv bakery which is 20km from our village. Occasionally, you could find this bread in Kyiv, but only in small corner shops, not supermarkets.

I have been thinking about that Makariv bread for several days now, remembering the taste. Only now, as I remember, I sense the taste of blood on my lips, like when I was a child if someone split my lip in a fight.

The fact is Makariv bakery was bombed a few days ago by Russian troops. The bakers were at work. I can imagine the fragrant smell that surrounded them the moment before the attack. In an instant, 13 bakery staff were killed and nine were injured. And the bakery is no more – “Makariv bread” is a thing of the past.









						I have run out of words for the horror of Putin’s crimes in Ukraine | Andrey Kurkov
					

We remember the murdered bakers, the postal workers, the animal shelter volunteers and we say: there will be justice, says the Ukrainian novelist Andrey Kurkov




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (14 March 2022)

After reading the Ukraine story this video started to play. Serendipity


----------



## rederob (15 March 2022)

"I don't know what you don't know!"
But is *this *the real reason NATO have not got involved?


----------



## basilio (15 March 2022)

rederob said:


> "I don't know what you don't know!"
> But is *this *the real reason NATO have not got involved?





Timeless and priceless. I believe Yes Minister  was one of the widely seen series in the world








						Yes Minister - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## rederob (17 March 2022)

Russia is resorting to long range tactics as they are having difficulty getting armour and troops close to Kyiv.
Here's part of the reason:


----------



## basilio (17 March 2022)

A blast from the past.  Truth stranger than fiction ?

Trump Putin and Rex Tillerman in  Christmas 2016


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2022)

basilio said:


> A blast from the past.  Truth stranger than fiction ?
> 
> Trump Putin and Rex Tillerman in  Christmas 2016












						Is "Trump Derangement Syndrome" a Real Mental Condition?
					

All you need to know about "Trump Derangement Syndrome," or TDS.




					www.google.com.au


----------



## basilio (18 March 2022)

Trump Derangement Syndome is indeed a very real and serious issue.  The President of the United States tries to subvert the election results and makes totally unproven claims of electoral fraud. He incites thousand of people to march to Congress to overturn the nomination of the new President.

When his efforts at electoral subversion fail he then continues to control the Republican Party and demands that candidates support his lies on electoral fraud - or be trashed by the Sun king. 

And all the while millions of people see him as an acceptable/ GREAT political  leader.  That is derangement on an scale that only Stalin and Putin have ever achieved. And they needed a full KGB/ controlled media Press to achieve that outcome


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2022)




----------



## basilio (18 March 2022)

Tisme said:


>




Well that was  bloody brilliant. The telling of a true story that goes to the heart of the Ukranine War, Russian  war history and Arnold's personal long term affection for the Russian people.

Really hope it gets the coverage  and impact it deserves.


----------



## wayneL (18 March 2022)

Tisme said:


>




Nice propaganda, and I mean that in the most charitable way.

I do share Arnold's thoughts on the Russian people and also the disdain for the regime... 

It would be a little bit like the Oz attacking New Zealand, or the US attacking Canada.


----------



## basilio (18 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Nice propaganda, and I mean that in the most charitable way.



Yeah... no..! The  descriptor  "propaganda"  is tainted in itself.  It automatically tars the a story for an observer with the brush of " this is almost certainly BS. Don't get sucked in"

It is an exceptionally well done story.  I sincerely hope almost all of it is truthful. Otherwise - yes it would move  towards the propaganda field. But as presented it highlights the horrors of wars and in particular unjust wars and the lies being told by Putin to justify his attack on Ukraine.

On the bigger picture we know that Russia is under the most stringent media and  legal  control for decades. The slightest hint of dissent from the Putin line is perceived  as treason with consequences that would stretch to 15  years in a gulag jail. That would be a slow death death sentence.

Challenging that regime with some facts on the ground from a person like Arnold Schwarzenegger who offers rare authenticity is powerful stuff.  I can think of  no  other person who could credibly and persuasively  present such a perspective


----------



## wayneL (18 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Yeah... no..! The  descriptor  "propaganda"  is tainted in itself.  It automatically tars the a story for an observer with the brush of " this is almost certainly BS. Don't get sucked in"




Although that can be true with much propaganda, it is not necessarily so. Propaganda is not necessarily BS, mis-, or disinformation. it may simply be the dissemination of information which will promote the goals of the propagandist.

Although the sidebar into Jan 6  is BS, his story and his point about the Russian people is most certainly on the mark.

Think of the goal here though basilio. Clearly this is an appeal to the Russian people to dissent against their government. Certainly from our perspective (and perhaps even from their own perspective) that is a laudable aim.

However, and bearing in mind my earlier comments in this post, it is clearly propaganda in it's true meaning

Look at the etymology and base of the word...


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Trump Derangement Syndome is indeed a very real and serious issue.  The President of the United States tries to subvert the election results and makes totally unproven claims of electoral fraud. He incites thousand of people to march to Congress to overturn the nomination of the new President.
> 
> When his efforts at electoral subversion fail he then continues to control the Republican Party and demands that candidates support his lies on electoral fraud - or be trashed by the Sun king.
> 
> And all the while millions of people see him as an acceptable/ GREAT political  leader.  That is derangement on an scale that only Stalin and Putin have ever achieved. And they needed a full KGB/ controlled media Press to achieve that outcome



Calm down and find your happy place. Trump will never be president again in my opinion. 
He won't hurt you no more.


----------



## basilio (19 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Calm down and find your happy place. Trump will never be president again in my opinion.
> He won't hurt you no more.




Well who really knows  Moxjo ?  And frankly the Sun God is really only part of the problem.  I'm more concerned about the spreading of the Trump infection to the hundreds  of Republician politicians who have kissed his ring and fervently  declare Trump was robbed. That's one big convention of  truly cracked people. But they have learnt the One Big Truth from Trumpo and that is a worry.

*When you lie, Make it Big, and Never, Ever Recant*

And on top of that there are the millions of people in the US and worldwide who still hold a  torch forTrump  and hope he will rise again.   They seem to have also taken the One Big Truth to heart.

As for your opinion on Trump ? About as useful as a Confederate Bill.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Well who really knows  Moxjo ?  And frankly the Sun God is really only part of the problem.  I'm more concerned about the spreading of the Trump infection to the hundreds  of Republician politicians who have kissed his ring and fervently  declare Trump was robbed. That's one big convention of  truly cracked people. But they have learnt the One Big Truth from Trumpo and that is a worry.
> 
> *When you lie, Make it Big, and Never, Ever Recant*
> 
> ...



There's no way. A good portion of Republican voters know that he isn't the way foreword as he can't bring the country together. 
He is also old. To old for another shot.
There's better choices.


----------



## noirua (20 March 2022)

Chinese official calls sanctions on Russia increasingly 'outrageous'
					

A senior Chinese government official said on Saturday that sanctions imposed by Western nations on Russia over Ukraine are increasingly "outrageous".




					www.foxbusiness.com
				




The next move is to make a point of not buying any Chinese goods. On the other hand Europe and particularly Germany buys Russian gas and oil funding Russia's war effort. Germany is providing funds to Ukraine to help the war effort whilst funding Russia's weapons to attack Ukraine.
Funding weapons to both sides has been done before but usually to make two possible future enemies a lot weaker - is this what Europe is doing like it or not?


----------



## rederob (21 March 2022)

NATO will have a place in history for letting Russia completely destroy Mariupol.
And America will be regarded as a gutless bully that would only ever attack nations which were weaker, while doing nothing to intervene in Russia's attempt to overthrow not just a democracy, but also an vital buffer between the East and West.
Australia has gone from "all the way with LBJ" to " we all should pray" with Scomo.

We learned
When the going gets tough we just huff and puff  
While the big bad Putin is blowing away Ukraine 
We are newsfed a feast of war crimes during our evening meals
And chew over what should be done
Until the next day when it was nothing
But applause at Volodymyr Zelenskyy 
Who has shown leadership beyond measure
Despite us constantly turning a deaf ear to his dire needs.

As supporting pillars to NATO we have "Five Eyes," the "Quad," and "AUKUS." 
Adjectives coming to mind include "useless" and "shameful."
From the sidelines it looks like we can claim virtue by donating weapons rather than being in the firing line, and be smug if we can give money to feed the hungry rather than actually deliver food to starving Ukranians.

We clearly didn't learn much from events leading to 1 September 1939.


----------



## The Triangle (21 March 2022)

rederob said:


> NATO will have a place in history for letting Russia completely destroy Mariupol.
> And America will be regarded as a gutless bully that would only ever attack nations which were weaker, while doing nothing to intervene in Russia's attempt to overthrow not just a democracy, but also an vital buffer between the East and West.
> Australia has gone from "all the way with LBJ" to " we all should pray" with Scomo.
> 
> ...



And what about your CCP handlers?  Won't China have a place in history for letting Russia completely destroy Mariupol? Ukraine is not NATO.   How is this NATO's responsibility?   It's the whole world's responsibility.

America gets hammered for entering wars and not entering wars.  How is that fair?


----------



## wayneL (21 March 2022)

And just think we could solve the Russia problem, overpopulation, and global warming all in one fell swoop.

I would kind of miss the simple things like.... Sunlight for a couple of years, food, and people not being born with two heads.

(This is the difference between 1939 and now)


----------



## greggles (21 March 2022)

China has much to say about sovereignty and territorial integrity when those concepts apply to itself, but since Russia's invasion on 24 February it has remained curiously silent on the issue of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. China's cynical duplicity is on show for the entire world to see, and should be a reminder to the West that tyrants will always stand with, or behind, other tyrants.


----------



## rederob (21 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> And what about your CCP handlers?



Where are they?


The Triangle said:


> Won't China have a place in history for letting Russia completely destroy Mariupol?



China is non aligned.  


The Triangle said:


> Ukraine is not NATO.   How is this NATO's responsibility?



*"NATO remains the principal security instrument of the transatlantic community and expression of its common democratic values. It is the practical means through which the security of North America and Europe are permanently tied together. NATO enlargement has furthered the U.S. goal of a Europe whole, free, and at peace."*​​


----------



## rederob (21 March 2022)

greggles said:


> China has much to say about sovereignty and territorial integrity when those concepts apply to itself, but it has remained curiously silent on the issue of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity.



This is China's *official policy*:

*China maintains that all states’ (including Ukraine’s) sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and protected according to the UN Charter;*
*China believes that the legitimate security concerns of all countries should be respected. Here, NATO’s expansion raised legitimate security demands in Russia;*
*China doesn’t want to see the current situation in Ukraine, and all parties should exercise restraint;*
*China supports a diplomatic resolution and peaceful settlement of the Ukraine crisis, and states that the Ukraine issue has evolved in a ‘complex historical context';*
*China stands against the invocation of UN Charter Chapter VII that authorises the use of force and sanctions in United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions, but believes that the UNSC should play a constructive role in resolving the Ukraine issue.*


----------



## greggles (21 March 2022)

rederob said:


> This is China's *official policy*:
> 
> *China maintains that all states’ (including Ukraine’s) sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and protected according to the UN Charter;*
> *China believes that the legitimate security concerns of all countries should be respected. Here, NATO’s expansion raised legitimate security demands in Russia;*
> ...




China's "official policy" is mealy mouthed fence sitting. It is very telling that they have not condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine, nor have they used the term "war" or "invasion" when referring to it. Any government that claims to believe in national sovereignty and territorial integrity should condemn it when other countries violate it. China has paid lip service to it, but their actions speak louder than their words.


----------



## rederob (21 March 2022)

greggles said:


> China has paid lip service to it, but their actions speak louder than their words.



Tell me more about China's actions....
The West's *inaction *redefines "mealy mouthed."
*Here's *a classic recent example in Israel's response to Zelenskyy.

America wants China to become involved, but at the same time they have numerous sanctions in place against China.
Maybe the Americans are so stupid they have not worked this out.  Australia is in the same boat in terms of having an exceptionally poor relationship with China, and calling it out for not siding with the West's condemnation.  Why aren't we instead calling out India who is a member of our Quad?


----------



## The Triangle (21 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Where are they?



A labor party fundraiser somewhere in Sydney?



rederob said:


> China is non aligned.
> ​



Agreed.  China is not aligned with saving human life.



rederob said:


> *"NATO remains the principal security instrument of the transatlantic community and expression of its common democratic values. It is the practical means through which the security of North America and Europe are permanently tied together. NATO enlargement has furthered the U.S. goal of a Europe whole, free, and at peace."*​​



You must have accidently missed the paragraph before and after.

_Formed in 1949 with the signing of the Washington Treaty, NATO is a security alliance of 30 countries from North America and Europe. NATO’s fundamental goal is to safeguard the *Allies’* freedom and security by political and military means... Article 5 of the Washington Treaty  — that an attack against one *Ally* is an attack against all — is at the core of the Alliance, a promise of collective defense._

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view) Ukraine is not an Ally.   NATO is not responsible for a military intervention in Ukraine (although I wouldn't have an issue if they did have a crack).    


rederob said:


> This is China's *official policy*:
> 
> *China stands against the invocation of UN Charter Chapter VII that authorises the use of force and sanctions in United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions, but believes that the UNSC should play a constructive role in resolving the Ukraine issue.*



Ok - So what is China doing to ensure the security council is playing a constructive role?

Let's not forget the Functions and Powers of the security council:

_In order to ensure prompt and effective action by the United Nations, its Members confer on the Security Council *primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security*, and agree that in carrying out its duties under this responsibility the Security Council acts on their behalf._


----------



## greggles (22 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Tell me more about China's actions....




OK, let's look at China's actions.

The day after the invasion, China lifted restrictions on Russian grain imports. It is also buying more Russian oil.

On 5 March, Hu Wei, chairman of the Shanghai Public Policy Research Association and a professor with Shanghai’s Communist Party school, authored this article titled _Possible Outcomes of the Russo-Ukrainian War and China’s Choice_ which was published on the U.S.-China Perception Monitor (中美印象) website on 12 March after being translated into English.

The article reaches the conclusion that China should cut its ties with Putin or face further global isolation, and that China should not play both sides in an attempt to look neutral but take the mainstream position on the war.

The article quickly received attention within China and was just as quickly censored by the CCP when they were made aware of it. It has since completely disappeared from the Chinese internet.

Chinese state media has reporters embedded with Russian troops, shamelessly pushing pro-Russian and anti-Western narratives out to the Chinese public.

China has also been instrumental in proliferating disinformation about alleged US funded Ukrainian biolabs with Chinese state media giving Kremlin mouthpieces unchallenged mainstream media access.

It is plain to see what China is up to. Their actions speak louder than their duplicitous words ever could.


----------



## rederob (22 March 2022)

The Triangle said:


> You must have accidently missed the paragraph before and after.



I linked to NATO's role so what is your point?
Clearly NATO is not living up to its practical commitments which state* North America and Europe are permanently tied together.*


The Triangle said:


> Ok - So what is China doing to ensure the security council is playing a constructive role?



Had you read my previous comments you would know Russia can veto any actions and it has.


----------



## rederob (22 March 2022)

greggles said:


> OK, let's look at China's actions.
> 
> The day after the invasion, China lifted restrictions on Russian grain imports. It is also buying more Russian oil.



Just like India, our Quad partner!
China made commercial arrangements before Russia invaded Ukraine and is abiding by them.  And like Israel and dozens of other nations it is not applying sanctions.


greggles said:


> On 5 March, Hu Wei, chairman of the Shanghai Public Policy Research Association and a professor with Shanghai’s Communist Party school, authored this article titled _Possible Outcomes of the Russo-Ukrainian War and China’s Choice_ which was published on the U.S.-China Perception Monitor (中美印象) website on 12 March after being translated into English.
> 
> The article reaches the conclusion that China should cut its ties with Putin or face further global isolation, and that China should not play both sides in an attempt to look neutral but take the mainstream position on the war.
> 
> The article quickly received attention within China and was just as quickly censored by the CCP when they were made aware of it. It has since completely disappeared from the Chinese internet.



Yes, I think we all know that  China's censorship laws are very different to ours.


greggles said:


> Chinese state media has reporters embedded with Russian troops, shamelessly pushing pro-Russian and anti-Western narratives out to the Chinese public.



I have watched every one of them, and *they report what they see and what they are told*.  Given they are real Russian people - not Chinese - representing CGTN, and have only reported from the eastern provinces that Russia wants to claim and, and that these provinces have  have been in a war state since 2014 I am surprised that there is any Ukranian resistance left after a month of full-on war:



greggles said:


> China has also been instrumental in proliferating disinformation about alleged US funded Ukrainian biolabs with Chinese state media giving Kremlin mouthpieces unchallenged mainstream media access.



You mean like invading Iraq because they possessed weapons of mass destructions.  I am sure you remember how keenly *John Howard* jumped in on that without any credible evidence and despite being told it was not the case by UN inspectors on the ground.  
Or how about continued attempts to blame China for leaking covid from a Wuhan lab, and Australia's call for this to be investigated.  How is that different?
The real question to be asked on *actual*, not "alleged," US funded overseas biolabs is why they are under the purview of US Department of Defense rather than the *CDC's* National Institute for Health?  

We seem to conveniently forget our past, and rather than pin the tail on the donkey (aka America's incompetent Democratic President), we choose to focus on China as *the *problem.  
China is in the far east of Asia, not in Europe!
China is non aligned, and is definitely not a democracy, so has no skin in this game.


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2022)

OMG Trump was right. 😂
I certainly hope the woke, fight as hard to protect their home, as they do to undermine the society it is built in. 









						‘I am pissed off!’ German army official bemoans ‘bare’ forces as Russia invades Ukraine
					

Senior army official says Germany’s options to support its allies are extremely limited.




					www.politico.eu
				



From the article:
BERLIN — Alfons Mais, the chief of the German army, has sharply criticized the state of the country’s armed forces, slamming underinvestment in its military equipment against the backdrop of a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

“The Bundeswehr, the army that I am privileged to lead, is more or less bare. The options that we can offer the politicians to support the alliance are extremely limited,” Mais wrote in a Linkedin post on Thursday morning.

“We all saw it coming and were not able to get through with our arguments, to draw the conclusions from the Crimean annexation and implement them. This does not feel good! I am pissed off!” Mais, a lieutenant-general, wrote.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> OMG Trump was right. 😂
> I certainly hope the woke, fight as hard to protect their home, as they do to undermine the society it is built in.
> 
> 
> ...




Yes he was right. Europe is mollycoddled with American defence spending as well as tarriffs on agricultural products from other countries

They needed a kick up the backside. Trump gave them one, now so has Putin.

Will they learn the lesson ?


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes he was right. Europe is mollycoddled with American defence spending as well as tarriffs on agricultural products from other countries
> 
> They needed a kick up the backside. Trump gave them one, now so has Putin.
> 
> Will they learn the lesson ?



In a word No.
They are like us, they are more focused on trashing the middle class, so everyone is on welfare then getting enough barista's won't be a problem.
It is a bit like Thailand and Bali, when tourism is pumping, there is no unemployment, that will be Australia in 50 years IMO.
Actually that is wrong, Thailand is already further up the industrialisation index, than Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In a word No.
> They are like us, they are more focused on trashing the middle class, so everyone is on welfare then getting enough barista's won't be a problem.
> It is a bit like Thailand and Bali, when tourism is pumping, there is no unemployment, that will be Australia in 50 years IMO.
> Actually that is wrong, Thailand is already further up the industrialisation index, than Australia.




The new German Chancellor may have seen the light.

*Olaf Scholz* (German: [ˈoːlaf ˈʃɔlts] (listen)) (born 14 June 1958) is a German politician who has served as the chancellor of Germany since 8 December 2021. A member of the Social Democratic Party (SPD), he previously served as Vice Chancellor under Angela Merkel and as Federal Minister of Finance from 2018 to 2021. He was also First Mayor of Hamburg from 2011 to 2018 and deputy leader of the SPD from 2009 to 2019. Following the 2021 German federal election, Scholz's federal government is a traffic light coalition composed of his SPD, the Greens and the Free Democratic Party (FDP).

Scholz is a lawyer specialising in labour and employment law. He became a member of the SPD in the 1970s and was a member of the Bundestag from 1998 to 2011. He served in the Hamburg Government under First Mayor Ortwin Runde in 2001, before his election as General Secretary of the SPD in 2002, serving alongside SPD leader and then-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder. He became his party's Chief Whip in the Bundestag, later entering the First Merkel Government in 2007 as Minister of Labour and Social Affairs. After the SPD quit the government following the 2009 election, Scholz returned to lead the SPD in Hamburg, and was elected Deputy Leader of the SPD. He led his party to victory in the 2011 Hamburg state election, and became First Mayor, holding that position until 2018.

After the SPD entered the Fourth Merkel Government in 2018, Scholz was appointed as both Minister of Finance and Vice Chancellor of Germany. In 2020, he was nominated as the SPD's candidate for Chancellor of Germany for the 2021 federal election. The party won a plurality of seats in the Bundestag and formed a coalition with the Greens and the FDP. On 8 December 2021, Scholz was elected and sworn in as Chancellor by the Bundestag.

As Chancellor, Scholz oversaw the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis, halting the approval of Nord Stream 2. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Scholz announced a complete reversal of German military and foreign policy, *including shipping weapons to Ukraine and dramatically increasing Germany's defense budget.*

I wonder if he will be hampered by his alliance with the Greens, who probably want more arts and crafts centres instead of weapons.


----------



## basilio (23 March 2022)

A little far fetched?   Certainly hope so..


----------



## rederob (29 March 2022)

*WARNING*
*This video link must not be shown to children*
Some things are best unseen so *if you don't want to see the real life horrors that go on in wars then* *do **not **watch*

There is every chance YouTube will bury this video, and I have no problem if @Joe Blow decides to expunge it from this site.
Currently there is dispute over whether it really is Ukrainian soldiers, or Russians with a diabolical propaganda message (eg. shooting their own deserters but they are pretending to be Ukrainian soldiers).
I felt sick after watching it.


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2022)

Couldn't watch the above video but have seen the "pow shooting" one.

The Russians were trying to pin it on Konstantin Nemichev and Sergei "Chili" Velichko. Nemichev has already said he wasn't in the area.

 Hard to tell if it's propaganda. Kneecapping is the most painful wound you can get. Knee is basically a big bundle of nerves. I'd expect more screaming.


----------



## Craton (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> *WARNING*
> *This video link must not be shown to children*
> Some things are best unseen so *if you don't want to see the real life horrors that go on in wars then* *do **not **watch*
> 
> ...




Not speaking their lingo makes it hard to dissimate who's who, although it'd probably be hard even if I did. No doubt the truth will emerge at some point. Either way, still doesn't detract from the atrocities of war.


----------



## rederob (29 March 2022)

Craton said:


> Not speaking their lingo makes it hard to dissimate who's who, although it'd probably be hard even if I did. No doubt the truth will emerge at some point. Either way, still doesn't detract from the atrocities of war.



If filmed in eastern provinces of Ukraine then most are fluent in Russian, so that definitely makes it impossible to tell. 
Aside from feeling sick afterwards I wondered which army would be stupid enough to upload war crimes in action!


----------



## Craton (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> If filmed in eastern provinces of Ukraine then most are fluent in Russian, so that definitely makes it impossible to tell.
> Aside from feeling sick afterwards I wondered which army would be stupid enough to upload war crimes in action!



My one guess would be, the aggressor!


----------



## wayneL (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> *WARNING*
> *This video link must not be shown to children*
> Some things are best unseen so *if you don't want to see the real life horrors that go on in wars then* *do **not **watch*
> 
> ...




I'm not gonna watch it, I need to be able to sleep... But doesn't take much imagination.

Dunno about whose propaganda it is... But f$#@!!!


----------



## rederob (30 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm not gonna watch it, I need to be able to sleep... But doesn't take much imagination.
> 
> Dunno about whose propaganda it is... But f$#@!!!



The above link is gorey, but the worse one - which I will not link - shows that Hollywood stabbing scenes miss the piercing screams of agony before someones dies.  That one will give me nightmares.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2022)

basilio said:


> A little far fetched?   Certainly hope so..
> 
> View attachment 139386



That is ridiculous, if he was in West Germany by July, France would be done and dusted by August IMO.


----------



## Craton (30 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm not gonna watch it, I need to be able to sleep... But doesn't take much imagination.
> *
> Dunno about whose propaganda it is*... But f$#@!!!



According to Operator Starsky, it's Russian Fake News, starts at around 44 secs into the vid. Warning that the vid does show the shootings but is blurred.
Reference also to Anonymous hacking a Russian database giving weight to the propaganda.


----------



## JohnDe (14 April 2022)

A few Aussie breweries helping out, found this one interesting - 














						UKRAINIAN TWIN PK
					

UKRAINIAN TWIN PK




					www.bacchusbrewing.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2022)

Opposition to Russia is spreading.









						ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
					

Trusted and independent source of local, national and world news. In-depth analysis, business, sport, weather and more.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (2 May 2022)

Seems like the most dangerous place to be for the Russians in Ukraine is with the Officer Corp and General Staff.

The Ukrainian Army is effectively targeting these  command posts.

Report: Russia's top uniformed officer visited Ukraine last week​Russia’s top uniformed officer, *General Valery Gerasimov*, visited dangerous frontline positions in eastern Ukraine last week in a bid to reinvigorate the Russian offensive there, the New York Times has reported citing Ukrainian and US officials.

The Guardian was unable to verify the report.

*During the visit, Gerasimov, chief of the Russian general staff, narrowly escaped a deadly Ukrainian attack on a school being used as a military base in the Russian-controlled city of Izium late Saturday, the Times reported.

Around 200 soldiers including at least one general were killed in the strike, a Ukrainian official told the paper, but Gerasimov had already departed for Russia.

The Institute for the Study of War, a US-based think tank, earlier said that Ukrainian forces had “likely conducted a rocket artillery strike on a Russian command post in Izyum on April 30 that struck after Russian chief of staff Valery Gerasimov had left but killed other senior Russian officers.”*

US officials could not confirm the attack and the Russian Defence Ministry did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

“Our working assumption is that he was there because there’s a recognition they haven’t worked out all their problems yet,” one of the US officials told the Times. The Russian offensive has been slow, with widespread disarray and poor morale reported among Russian forces.


----------



## basilio (2 May 2022)

The ISW (Institute for the  Study of War)  offers an ongoing analysis of the course of the Russo-Ukraine war. The daily  Press summaries are expanded in further detail in the daily reports






						Institute for the Study of War
					






					www.understandingwar.org


----------



## moXJO (3 May 2022)

basilio said:


> Seems like the most dangerous place to be for the Russians in Ukraine is with the Officer Corp and General Staff.
> 
> The Ukrainian Army is effectively targeting these  command posts.
> 
> ...



US being coy about it. But they are feeding the Ukrainians Intel from satellite feeds and assets on the ground. It's then backed up by local knowledge from the Ukrainians.

This is the major advantage that the Ukrainians have over Russians.


----------



## basilio (5 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> US being coy about it. But they are feeding the Ukrainians Intel from satellite feeds and assets on the ground. It's then backed up by local knowledge from the Ukrainians.
> 
> This is the major advantage that the Ukrainians have over Russians.



As per Moxjo comments

*The United States has provided intelligence that has helped Ukrainian forces kill many of the Russian generals who have died in the Ukraine war,* the New York Times reported on Wednesday, citing senior US officials.

The targeting help is part of a classified effort by the Biden administration to provide real-time battlefield intelligence to Ukraine, the newspaper said.

Washington has reportedly provided to Ukraine details on Russia’s expected troop movements and the location and other details about Russia’s mobile military headquarters, and Ukraine has combined that help with its own intelligence to conduct artillery strikes and other attacks that have killed Russian officers.

Intelligence also includes anticipated Russian troop movements gleaned from recent American assessments of Moscow’s secret battle plan for the fighting in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, the officials said.

Ukrainian officials said they have killed about 12 Russian generals on the battlefield, according to the New York Times. Officials declined to specify how many generals had been killed as a result of US assistance, the newspaper added.









						Ukraine war: ‘bloody battles’ inside Mariupol steelworks; UK gives £45m in humanitarian aid – live
					

Ukraine MP says Russian troops are ‘already on the territory of Azovstal’; Russia announces daytime ceasefires on Thursday, Friday and Saturday




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Craton (11 May 2022)

A nice interactive map of the conflict from Military Land.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2022)

Craton said:


> A nice interactive map of the conflict from Military Land.



And the best commentator on the war, as a WAR, is *Perun*.
However, don't expect mere minutes, as Perun is an analyst with few peers, eg.


----------



## Belli (12 May 2022)

rederob said:


> And the best commentator




Yes he is pretty good.  Interesting but not surprising a gamer can use those talents honed in that sphere in other ways.

Following one of his vids "The Chieftain" presented an alternative view referencing one of Perun's vids and comments.  All done without denigrating any particular view.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 May 2022)

Finland paused to join NATO, Sweden may follow. Putin is upset.









						Russia warns Finland's decision to join NATO would destabilise security in Northern Europe
					

Russia warns that it will take unspecified "military-technical" steps in response to Finland's decision to join NATO, as Moscow continues to face setbacks in its invasion of Ukraine.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Craton (13 May 2022)

rederob said:


> And the best commentator on the war, as a WAR, is *Perun*.
> However, don't expect mere minutes, as Perun is an analyst with few peers, eg.







Belli said:


> Yes he is pretty good.  Interesting but not surprising a gamer can use those talents honed in that sphere in other ways.
> 
> Following one of his vids "The Chieftain" presented an alternative view referencing one of Perun's vids and comments.  All done without denigrating any particular view.



Glad you've both posted about this Aussie. His vids are very insightful and well presented.


----------



## Craton (17 May 2022)

As per the ABC, a defeat... of sorts.


> Ukraine's soldiers leave Mariupol's Azovstal steelworks, declares end to longest battle in war with Russia​Troops holed up in the last Ukrainian stronghold in the besieged port of Mariupol have begun evacuating, appearing to cede control of the once prosperous city to Russia after months of bombardment.
> 
> Ukraine's military command said in the early hours on Tuesday that the mission to defend the Azovstal steel plant by "the heroes of our time" was over and it pledged to rescue servicemen still trapped inside.
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (17 May 2022)

Craton said:


> As per the ABC, a defeat... of sorts.



I regard Mariupol as a defining moment in the impotence of the west.  
Since WWII America has been involved in many skirmishes and wars, with occasional Australian support.  But once we see a true ally in real trouble, and tens of thousands of civilians killed, we declare Ukraine a no-go zone because of Russian aggression.

If the day ever comes that China seeks to integrate Taiwan we will no doubt be as bold as we have been with Ukraine.


----------



## Craton (19 May 2022)

rederob said:


> I regard Mariupol as a defining moment in the impotence of the west.



I'd say that impotence was evident in the 2014 annexation of Crimea. Speaking of which, Russia has probably harboured deep seated resentment for the humiliating defeat way back in the Crimean war of the mid 1800's. 
That war was certainly a major contributor and a catalyst for subsequent conflicts, that shaped and is still shaping the world as we know it today.



> On 22–23 February 2014, Russian president Vladimir Putin convened an all-night meeting with security service chiefs to discuss assisting the deposed Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych with leaving the country. At the end of the meeting, Putin remarked that "*we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia*"





rederob said:


> Since WWII America has been involved in many skirmishes and wars, with occasional Australian support.  But once we see a true ally in real trouble, and tens of thousands of civilians killed, we declare Ukraine a no-go zone because of Russian aggression.



The cynic in me reckons this is all still part of the Great Game, albeit a revised version/strategy.


rederob said:


> If the day ever comes that China seeks to integrate Taiwan we will no doubt be as bold as we have been with Ukraine.



On the other hand we might be surprised and find that there is a lot more solidarity as evidenced in Europe.
Food for thought, according to Peter Zeihan, sanctions placed on China like the ones placed on Russia isn't going to bode well for Xi Jinping's people. Even now China is in crisis so a Taiwan play seems a long way off.

I agree that the West in spite of the excellent intel was caught on the hop because of the wait and see stance, possibly thinking that a conflict was just posturing and thus believed Putin's lies in the lead up to the incursion. We know now of course, what type of "special military operation" was being planned.

Moreover though, Russia's refusal to declare war, even though it is, was and is meant to stymie any incentive to put the West's "boots on the ground". Further, if the West did place those boots into play, then of course Russia could/would say it's an act of aggression and defend with the nukes the Kremlin threatens with.
Surely as a priority all parties would be very keen to avoid the nuclear option?

Yes, it's possible that Russia will say whatever it wants to escalate to whatever level of warmongering it wishes. A tough ask on Ukraine for sure but they've been "at war" with Russia (this time) since 2014. They know the dirty tactics the Kremlin uses including sending in troops with no markings.
For now though and I think prudently, the West has persuaded the best way forward to avoid all out war whilst supporting Ukraine as much as possible.

President Zelensky's words stir up a whole swag of emotions inside me to the point that I'd fight for him!


----------



## 3 hound (19 May 2022)

I agree.


----------



## Craton (20 May 2022)

Most likely propaganda but even if there's an ounce of truth to this disturbing report, well it's not surprising thanks to the decades of the Kremlin inciting Ukrainophobia and playing the long game.

Image is a screen grab from Live Map.


----------



## Craton (20 May 2022)

What will be the fate of Ukraine's Avoz soldiers from Mariupol?


----------



## Pokitren (20 May 2022)

If anyone wanted to bring russia down, russia itself brought the opportunity.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (20 May 2022)

Craton said:


> President Zelensky's words stir up a whole swag of emotions inside me to the point that I'd fight for him!




Great bit of identity politics/ theatre. (I mean that in a positive way)

Thanks for posting it. 

_reply written on Day 86 of a rather stupid invasion._


----------



## 3 hound (20 May 2022)

Craton said:


> What will be the fate of Ukraine's Avoz soldiers from Mariupol?




Weird how leftists in the west have been calling everyone who doesn't align with them facists and Nazis when  they clearly are not and when there are real facists and Nazis on the loose the same people are real careful not to call them that.


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (20 May 2022)

I suspect Putin was partly motivated to invade Ukraine knowing the Economic harm it would cause the West.
Now that Finland and Sweden are seeking NATO inclusion I'm wondering what strategic move he will make next and when - this weekend I wonder.


----------



## 3 hound (20 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> I suspect Putin was partly motivated to invade Ukraine knowing the Economic harm it would cause the West.
> Now that Finland and Sweden are seeking NATO inclusion I'm wondering what strategic move he will make next and when - this weekend I wonder.



I am getting anxiety that we are moving toward WWIII.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am getting anxiety that we are moving toward WWIII.



Well it would certainly put a lid on consumerism and property prices.Lol


----------



## 3 hound (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it would certainly put a lid on consumerism and property prices.Lol



Not for me, I will sell my property and start consuming in a big way until a bomb lands on me.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Not for me, I will sell my property and start consuming in a big way until a bomb lands on me.



When your my age, you should already be well along that path IMO.


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (20 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am getting anxiety that we are moving toward WWIII.



Russia should have air superiority and just bomb the Ukrainian war infrastructure into oblivion shouldn't they? Why haven't they done that? Concerned about intervention from NATO etc?
Doesn't add up to me.


----------



## 3 hound (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When your my age, you should already be well along that path IMO.



Are there any hookers and cocaine involved?


----------



## 3 hound (20 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> Russia should have air superiority and just bomb the Ukrainian war infrastructure into oblivion shouldn't they? Why haven't they done that? Concerned about intervention from NATO etc?
> Doesn't add up to me.



I have no clue what Putin is trying to achieve but I fully believe who will use nukes of pushed.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Are there any hookers and cocaine involved?



No, will you miss them?


----------



## 3 hound (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> No, will you miss them?



Yes.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> I suspect Putin was partly motivated to invade Ukraine knowing the Economic harm it would cause the West.



Not only the  West, plus the Rest. Food insecurity and galloping prices for everything will , and is, causing instability across the world. I don't think many will get in their boats and sail across the Black Sea or White Sea for that matter.


----------



## 3 hound (23 May 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Not only the West, plus the Rest. Food insecurity and galloping prices for everything will , and is, causing instability across the world




You can blame sanctions for that and not Putin.   Sri Lanka and a list of about 100 hundred more countries are at high risk. Ask if they would prefer sanctions or food.


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

IMO the biggest problem for Putin will be public support, the general public will be starting to ask, what is the end game.


----------



## 3 hound (23 May 2022)

This could also start a new world order without the US/Euro/West and the US dollar at the centre. The centre of the new world would be a China, Middle East, Russia, India type of deal. Their manufacturing (and fertility) would surge fuelled by fossil fuels and nuclear power while we continue to stay under replacement level fertility and go broke funding foreign wars, transitioning to renewables and asking dumb questions like "can men have babies" and "what is a women".


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> This could also start a new world order without the US/Euro/West and the US dollar at the centre. The centre of the new world would be a China, Middle East, Russia, India type of deal. Their manufacturing (and fertility) would surge fuelled by fossil fuels and nuclear power while we continue to stay under replacement level fertility and go broke funding foreign wars, transitioning to renewables and asking dumb questions like "can men have babies" and "what is a women".



That's Russia's and China's plan. 
Greed and decadence is bringing about the demise of the West, telling everyone else how to live, while we sip wine in our air conditioned overpriced houses, while driving our polluting cars because E.V's are too expensive and tell the third world we aren't going to sell coal to you because it pollutes. FFS 
We must be the biggest wanker$ in the world. 🤪
Monkeypox will sort a lot out, I wonder if there will be a new pandemic every year?


----------



## 3 hound (23 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's Russia's and China's plan




Ours will not be the first dominant culture to come and go. History from an investor's perspective:


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Ours will not be the first dominant culture to come and go. Peak affluence, decadence , corruption and loss of traditional moral values are some of the key indicators of societal demise.
> 
> Let post the facts care of Dalio;



Yep I think you are spot on, this is the beginning of the rise of the third world.
But that has to be expected, when people expect more than what they put in, it is the beginning of the end.
Wash, rinse, repeat.  
I'm going to pay for the grandkids to learn Mandarin.
It will be interesting to see how we all line up, when we go for invasion compensation, from the Chinese.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2022)

One of the most principled and courageous actions we have seen for a long time. A Russian diplomat resigns over the conduct of the Ukraine war and tells it like it is. I think his full statement deserves recognition.

Hope his family and friends have some cover.

Warmongering, lies and hatred’: Russian diplomat in Geneva resigns over Ukraine invasion​Boris Bondarev issues public statement saying: ‘Never have I been so ashamed of my country’

Andrew Roth, Moscow correspondent
Mon 23 May 2022 17.16 BSTLast modified on Mon 23 May 2022 23.02 BS

A veteran Russian diplomat in Geneva has resigned over his country’s invasion of Ukraine in a rare political protest from within the Russian foreign policy establishment.

Boris Bondarev, a counsellor at the Russian permanent mission to the United Nations in Geneva, wrote in a public statement: “Never have I been so ashamed of my country.”




Read more
“Today the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not about diplomacy,” wrote the diplomat, a 20-year veteran of the Russian foreign ministry. “It is all about warmongering, lies and hatred. It serves interests of few, the very few people thus contributing to further isolation and degradation of my country. Russia no longer has allies, and there is no one to blame but its reckless and ill-conceived policy.”






Boris Bondarev said his decision to resign was ‘very simple’. Photograph: Handout/AP
Bondarev is the highest-level diplomat yet to resign publicly from the Russian foreign ministry over the war, which began in February. In a telephone interview with the Guardian, Bondarev confirmed that he had written the statement and submitted his letter of resignation on Monday.

“The decision was very simple,” said Bondarev. “When you see that your country is doing the worst things and being a civil servant you’re somehow related to that, it’s your decision just to terminate your connection with the government. We all must be responsible. And I don’t want to have any responsibility for what I don’t approve of.”

Bondarev published the statement on his Facebook and LinkedIn accounts and also sent copies to diplomats and media outlets. He said he had walked into work on Monday, submitted his resignation, and walked out.

“The decision was made on February 24. But it took some time to gather some resolve to make it,” he said.

Hillel Neuer, the executive director of the Geneva-based human rights organisation UN Watch, called Bondarev a “hero”.

“We are now calling on all other Russian diplomats at the United Nations – and worldwide – to follow his moral example and resign,” he said.

Neuer also called for Bondarev to be allowed to speak at this week’s Davos forum, a gathering of the world’s political and business elite at a mountain resort in Switzerland.


Bondarev’s statement was also confirmed by the Russian media outlet Kommersant, which said that it “also knows the names of several other diplomats who resigned from the Russian foreign ministry after the start of the ‘special military operation’ in Ukraine, but almost none of them have made public statements about this”.

Bondarev, a counsellor on arms control at the Russian diplomatic mission in Geneva, said that other Russian diplomats have similar feelings about the war but are unlikely to speak out.

“There are people who think the way that I think and see the situation for what it is,” he said. “But I don’t know whether some of them will follow my example. I don’t think that there will be many.”

*He said he had not had any response yet from the foreign ministry after delivering his letter of resignation on Monday.

“I don’t know what the [Russian] reaction will be,” he said. “I don’t know what I am going to do either. No plans.”*

Asked whether he had asked for asylum outside Russia, he said: “I think that if someone offers to help in this difficult situation, I think it would be very gratefully accepted.”

As to returning to Russia, he said that “would not be a very good idea right now”.

In his public statement, Bondarev took aim at top officials such as Vladimir Putin and Sergei Lavrov, calling the Russian foreign minister “a good illustration of the degradation of the system”.

“The aggressive war unleashed by Putin against Ukraine, and in fact against the entire western world, is not only a crime against the Ukrainian people, but also, perhaps, the most serious crime against the people of Russia, with a bold letter Z crossing out all hopes and prospects for a prosperous free society in our country,” he wrote.





Read more
“Those who conceived this war want only one thing – to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity,” he said. “To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. Thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have already died just for this.”

Bondarev is a career diplomat who has worked for the foreign ministry since 2002. He has served as an adviser on nuclear non-proliferation for nearly a decade, first in Moscow and then at Russia’s permanent mission to the UN and other international organisations in Geneva.

During that time, he said, he had stayed on as a diplomat even as relations deteriorated with the west because he felt there was “some room for diplomacy, some room to go back to normal somehow”.

“But now after February 24, we just jumped into an abyss and there can be no going back to normal, no going back to anywhere,” he continued. “Today of course we can see that there can be no negotiations, it’s just all-out war.”









						‘Warmongering, lies and hatred’: Russian diplomat in Geneva resigns over Ukraine invasion
					

Boris Bondarev issues public statement saying: ‘Never have I been so ashamed of my country’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (24 May 2022)

Good story on Putin and how he achieved power.









						Tyrant, war criminal, megalomaniac: Vladimir Putin has many names in the West. In Russia, there's only one that matters
					

Three months into his war, Vladimir Putin has learned the best way to protect power is to hang onto to it — at any price.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Craton (25 May 2022)

One thing that has puzzled me is the silence from Georgia. I mean, they've had a couple of occupied territories under Russian control since 2008 so one would think they'd be sympathetic and on the same page.

A little history first. Russia went into Georgia then Ukraine after NATO's Bucharest Summit April 2008 where:



> 23 - NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.   We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.




Along with their 30 year independence the two countries have more than that in common.
Both have a large majority that are pro-EU and pro-NATO so one would think that Georgia would be in support of Ukraine as much as possible.

Maybe Georgia feels it is too small to have any impact and doesn't want to be shelled into oblivion. However the Georgian government, the Georgian Dream, seems to have taken a few leaves out of Putin's rule book to further it's own agenda.

So what really gives?
Here's a look-see into what I feel should be taken as a matter of urgency.
Putin Is Failing in Ukraine, But Winning in Georgia​From The Bulwark article and reads in part:


> Georgia’s geography may straddle East and West, but opinion polls consistently show large majorities support joining NATO (75 percent) and the EU (88 percent). Georgia’s ruling party, Georgian Dream, rhetorically still supports a Western integration policy. But its actions show the Georgian Dream government is clearly casting its lot with the wrong crowd.
> 
> Particularly since the crisis in Ukraine, Georgia’s governance has increasingly resembled the Russian model, complete with one-party rule and persecution of the opposition. The United States and its European allies need to exercise their influence with Georgia to help rein in these destructive forces. We owe it to the many Georgians who hope to join the EU and NATO to impose travel bans and other sanctions on those who are undermining hope for a future with the West.
> 
> The latest disturbing step in Georgia’s march toward authoritarianism occurred last week when a judge sentenced Nika Gvaramia, the director of leading opposition TV channel “Mtvari Arkhi,” to more than three years in prison on politically motivated charges. The U.S. Embassy in Tbilisi said in a statement that Gvaramia’s case “calls into question Georgia’s commitment to rule of law” and suggested it sends the wrong signal about its Western orientation at a time “when Georgia has an unprecedented opportunity to advance its Euro-Atlantic integration.”


----------



## rederob (3 June 2022)

When Russia invaded, the west hung out Ukraine to dry.
Over 3 months later and with zero military intervention they are now ensuring that Ukraine does not have the means to attack Russia.  
Better yet, any arms supplied are conditional on Ukraine not using them across the Russian border.
So while Russia has open skies over Ukraine, and rains down on civilians and civilian infrastructure, Ukraine is fighting with an arm tied behind its back.

Without Zelenskyy at the helm, and proving himself more capable than every western leader combined, it's very likely that Ukraine would have capitulated to the Russians months ago.  His ability to rally Ukrainians and convince them that this is a fight they must win, is now being thwarted by the international toadies that have paid him lip service and now are angling for a negotiated settlement.  I hope Zelenskyy tells the west where they can stick their negotiated outcome ideas, and that the limited armaments being supplied will be enough for its troops to work miracles against Russia's superior military strength.  

The other festering wound that the west won't heal relates to ensuring Ukraine's many agricultural products can be exported.  The calorific value of those exports is estimated to feed 400 to 500 million people, and much of this goes to poorer nations around the world.  Another thread picks up the issue of food security, and the bottom line here is we really don't care.  It's not at all hard to demine the seas to Odessa's port and get convoy support for commercial vessels to transport grain crops etc out.  But just as the west won't help Ukraine with ground forces or sophisticated armaments, it won't do anything to resolve this food security issue.

History will look back at how pathetic we have been.  They will draw easy comparisons with how everyone knew what Germany was up to prior to the outbreak of WWII, and just let it happen.  It goes to show how cowardly we act.  No problem with a "war on terror" that has no boundaries and is ok because the good guys are doing the right thing.  But as soon as the "enemy" has teeth, we hide behind the victim and hope our words, plus a few toys, are enough. 

There was a YouTube upload I watched a few days back (wish I could find it again) featuring some frontline troops in the Donbas region who were pleading for modern weaponry to fight back the Russians.  I found this instead, as it sums up how Ukrainians feel about the idea of a negotiated settlement:


----------



## DB008 (4 June 2022)

That didn't take long....


Users from Ukraine have posted several American made FGM-148 Javelins for sale on the Dark Web Marketplace, Thief Marketplace. The posting was made less than three hours ago and the seller advertised shipping available from Ukraine, specifically Kyiv. The seller is charging 30,000 USD for what seems to be just the tube. Unseen is the command Launch Unit, and it is unclear if there is a missile in the tube. A full ensemble of the Javelin usually goes for 206K USD, with the Command Launch Unit valued at around 120K USD and each missile at about 80K USD, so this posting is a steal.​​The seller, @weapon_ukraine_big_sale also has several other American weapons systems ranging from Stinger MANPADS, Phoenix Ghost Drones, and smalls arms and ammunition. The United States has reportedly sent 5,500 Javelin tubes to Ukraine, and an unspecified number of command launch units which are needed for firing. The United States has reportedly sent 1/3 of its Javelin inventory to Ukraine in order to combat Russian tanks and other ground vehicles since the February 24th invasion.​













.​


----------



## rederob (11 June 2022)

Russia liberates Mariupol...





(This cemetery extends to the treeline in the background.)


----------



## sptrawler (12 June 2022)

This doesn't sound good for Ukraine, but Biden has been known to slip up a bit, it maybe an indication the bus is coming for Zelensky.









						Biden says ‘Zelensky didn’t want to hear’ warnings that Putin would invade
					

The president acknowledged that the possibility of Putin launching an invasion may have seemed far-fetched: “I understand why they didn’t want to hear it.”




					www.smh.com.au
				



*Washington:* US President Joe Biden said Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky tuned out warnings that Russia would invade his country in the lead-up to the February 24 attack.

“I know a lot of people thought I was maybe exaggerating, but I knew, and we had data to sustain, he was going in off the border. There was no doubt. And Zelensky didn’t want to hear it, nor did a lot of people,” Biden said Friday during a political fundraiser in Los Angeles hosted by Hollywood producer Jeffrey Katzenberg.


----------



## The Triangle (12 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This doesn't sound good for Ukraine, but Biden has been known to slip up a bit, it maybe an indication the bus is coming for Zelensky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He does slip up a bit, maybe sleepy creepy joe meant to say Zelensky didn't want to hear the reasons why Hunter should be appointed to the board of another Ukrainian company? 

Looks like this 'war' is more or less won for Russia.  Russia have the eastern bit of Ukraine.  Can't see Ukraine getting it back no matter how many billions of American tax payer dollars Biden gives to his arms manufacturers.  Only hope is that Putin just dies and Russia shrugs its shoulders and goes home.


----------



## noirua (12 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly what the Chinese think about Taiwan.




11 June 2022 - The American and Chinese defense ministers have held their first face-to-face talks in Singapore. Beijing has said that it will not hesitate to start a war if Taiwan declares independence. Now, US said, we do not support Taiwan independence. For more perspective on this, we're joined by Edward P. Joseph, faculty of Johns Hopkins School.









						Taiwan Relations Act - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 3 hound (18 June 2022)

Bit of a PR nightmare for the west and in particular Germany that they are trying to be seen as supporting freedom and democracy in Ukraine while there is a literal Nazi element in the mix who also happen to be accused of war crimes in the disputed areas.

It's like the cognitive dissonance of marching in pride parades waving Ukraine flags.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (4 July 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (4 July 2022)

The World tour continues.


----------



## The Triangle (4 July 2022)

My tax dollars should be spent on Australians not Ukrainians.    Has Albanese sorted out all the bush fire and flood victims?  A few hundred million would go a long way to engineering controls in NSW and QLD.   Would buy a few firetrucks too.  But hey, just keep printing money like the liberals.









						Ukraine war: Australian PM visits Kyiv, pledges more military aid
					

Anthony Albanese visited the devastated towns of Bucha and Irpin, describing what he saw as a 'war crime'.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2022)

The Triangle said:


> My tax dollars should be spent on Australians not Ukrainians.    Has Albanese sorted out all the bush fire and flood victims?  A few hundred million would go a long way to engineering controls in NSW and QLD.   Would buy a few firetrucks too.  But hey, just keep printing money like the liberals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Maybe or he could be making enemies and spending on pork like Morrison for the sake of local politics.

Albanese is building alliances for our coming future confrontation with China, working the crowd for the EU free trade agreement (think China finally shuts as out of their market)  trying to spread the eggs around baskets, the $100mil much of which is spent in Aus  is small change in the grand scheme of things IMHO.

Whether it works or not who knows still welcome change from the last mob of pamphlets and chest beating with Hawaii holidays in-between.


----------



## 3 hound (5 July 2022)

100's of millions might seem like small change to you but for the vast majority of working people wiped out by fire, floods, lock downs it's a lot of money - geez could you be more tone deaf and insensitive.



IFocus said:


> Albanese is building alliances for our coming future confrontation with China, working the crowd for the EU free trade agreement (




I prefer our leaders prepare for future peace with a strong respectful, open relationship with China and not a future confrontation with them.

The EU and it's worshippers should stop thinking the EU is the whole world, it's not.

May I remind you Australia is more  a part of Asia than it is EU. Your Eurocentric colonialist ideas are outdated.


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2022)

Im surprised the media isnt going ape$hit about Albo being away, when there is a flood disaster on, well I guess this time, those who are paid to look after the hose will be doing their job.
I hope the Federal police are keeping an eye on his rental properties. Lol


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2022)

3 hound said:


> I prefer our leaders prepare for future peace with a strong respectful, open relationship with China and not a future confrontation with them.
> 
> May I remind you Australia is more  a part of Asia than it is EU. Your Eurocentric colonialist ideas are outdated.




Our relationship with China in the future wont be determined by us but by the Chinese as it has until now, they want us to be their vassal state read up on history what happens when you resist that unusually means war same as Ukraine..


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Im surprised the media isnt going ape$hit about Albo being away, when there is a flood disaster on, well I guess this time, those who are paid to look after the hose will be doing their job.
> I hope the Federal police are keeping an eye on his rental properties. Lol





Is Albo on holidays opening churches?


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> Is Albo on holidays opening churches?



He could be, he is definitely on a World tour, I suppose you have to wedge it in just incase there is a lockdown.
But you would think he would leave a bit of meet and greet for later, rather than trying to fit it all in the first 3 months after the election.
Just shows how an extended stint on the sidelines promotes enthusiasm, the RAAF VIP jet hasn't cooled down since the election.


----------



## 3 hound (5 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> Is Albo on holidays opening churches?



No but he's already been nicknamed "airbus albo".


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2022)

I think it is crazy to expect a PM to be here every time there is a flood, bushfire, cyclone etc, a lot people get paid a lot of money to oversee those issue, if it can't be handled without a P.M being here they should be sacked.
I didn't agree with Morrison getting bagged and I don't agree with Albo copping it, but once you have set the precedent well it becomes expected and the norm, plus it's always good to watch them BS their way out of the situation.


----------



## 3 hound (5 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think it is crazy to expect a PM to be here every time there is a flood, bushfire, cyclone etc, a lot people get paid a lot of money to oversee those issue, if it can't be handled without a P.M being here they should be sacked.
> I didn't agree with Morrison getting bagged and I don't agree with Albo copping it, but once you have set the precedent well it becomes expected and the norm, plus it's always good to watch them BS their way out of the situation.




Anthony Overseasy


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think it is crazy to expect a PM to be here every time there is a flood, bushfire, cyclone etc, a lot people get paid a lot of money to oversee those issue, if it can't be handled without a P.M being here they should be sacked.
> I didn't agree with Morrison getting bagged and I don't agree with Albo copping it, but once you have set the precedent well it becomes expected and the norm, plus it's always good to watch them BS their way out of the situation.




You might have missed the reasons, invite to Nato, show the EU we are best mates, pitch we are climate change warriors now, go to Ukraine etc, free trade agreement, patch-up relations to the Frogs (they are the biggest player in the Pacific you know the bit China wants).

Compare that to Hawaiian holiday opening churches. 🤣🤣


----------



## 3 hound (5 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> You might have missed the reasons, invite to Nato, show the EU we are best mates, pitch we are climate change warriors now, go to Ukraine etc, free trade agreement, patch-up relations to the Frogs (they are the biggest player in the Pacific you know the bit China wants).
> 
> Compare that to Hawaiian holiday opening churches. 🤣🤣



How many of those items existed beside the submarine debacle when scomo was on holidays during the fires. The man is not a time traveller to attend things that didn't exist at the time.

Also why would NATO want us in it, NATO is not meant to be the the EU army to take over the world as much as the EU are trying to make it that way.


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> You might have missed the reasons, invite to Nato, show the EU we are best mates, pitch we are climate change warriors now, go to Ukraine etc, free trade agreement, patch-up relations to the Frogs (they are the biggest player in the Pacific you know the bit China wants).
> 
> Compare that to Hawaiian holiday opening churches. 🤣🤣



As long as he's home by bushfire season it should be fine.
By the way did we go back to buying the diesel subs?
Also he probably hasnt been in one spot long enough to organise a lunch menu, let alone a free trade agreement.
The bit China wants, we're sitting on, they already have third world bits of their own, without picking up Frances bits. Lol


----------



## IFocus (6 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As long as he's home by bushfire season it should be fine.
> By the way did we go back to buying the diesel subs?
> Also he probably hasnt been in one spot long enough to organise a lunch menu, let alone a free trade agreement.
> The bit China wants, we're sitting on, they already have third world bits of their own, without picking up Frances bits. Lol




Isn't there a conversation about building more diesel subs to get us through to when the nuclear subs will be ready and obsolete?

For China to take Australia they really need at least one but preferably more than two  secure forward bases, guess where that will be?


----------



## IFocus (6 July 2022)

3 hound said:


> How many of those items existed beside the submarine debacle when scomo was on holidays during the fires. The man is not a time traveller to attend things that didn't exist at the time.
> 
> Also why would NATO want us in it, NATO is not meant to be the the EU army to take over the world as much as the EU are trying to make it that way.





The Chinese move into the Pacific has been talked about for some time its not new, having the French onside is important not that you would rely on them  when push comes to shove still any thing that makes the Chinese blink is worth it.

As for the NATO visit suspect the building relationships was more about setting up support for the free trade agreement, then there is the longer term armaments' and military hardware support to counter the US possible slow reaction should the US elect another Trump US 1st president and we have a problem.


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> Isn't there a conversation about building more diesel subs to get us through to when the nuclear subs will be ready and obsolete?



We already have diesel subs, but if there is a backhander to be made, it is always an option.😂



IFocus said:


> For China to take Australia they really need at least one but preferably more than two  secure forward bases, guess where that will be?



I've already stated that ages ago, Indonesia and Solomons, with possibly a third base in East Timor.


----------



## 3 hound (6 July 2022)

Well the Solomon's are clear where they stand and who they look to and align with, hint: it's not Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07...olice-equipment-for-solomon-islands/101213248


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

Oh the irony, I wonder if the media will go ape$hit about this breach of confidentiality, probably not.
Australia seem to be in a new media friendly paradigm now.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		

French President Emmanuel Macron’s decision to reveal private telephone exchanges in a documentary about his failed efforts to convince Vladimir Putin not to start a war in Ukraine has drawn strongly-worded rebuke from Russia.

“When calls are made at the highest level this of course is confidential, these are closed-doors negotiations,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said


----------



## 3 hound (6 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Oh the irony, I wonder if the media will go ape$hit about this breach of confidentiality, probably not.
> Australia seem to be in a new media friendly paradigm now.
> 
> 
> ...




Don't people like Assange get their lives destroyed over such things.


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

3 hound said:


> Don't people like Assange get their lives destroyed over such things.



That last one the media took to bits over such things, was Morrison, funnily enough it was to defend Macron.
Like I said ironic, but IMO that's our media, crap on our own and kowtow to everyone one else, sniveling bunch of breath wasters IMO.


----------



## 3 hound (6 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That last one the media took to bits over such things, was Morrison, funnily enough it was to defend Macron.
> Like I said ironic, but IMO that's our media, crap on our own and kowtow to everyone one else, sniveling bunch of breath wasters IMO.




Well an unbiased media is essential for a functioning democracy....


----------



## mullokintyre (6 July 2022)

According to The Evil Murdoch Empire , Russia has introduced a new "weapon" into the war.
By occupuying Nuclear plants, surrounding them with guns. mines tanks etc, they have effectively made these items unable to be fired on.
Smart thinking.


> The Russian army is transforming Europe’s largest nuclear power plant into a military base overlooking an active front, intensifying a monthslong safety crisis for the vast facility and its thousands of staff.
> At the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant in southern Ukraine, more than 500 Russian soldiers who seized the plant in March have in recent weeks deployed heavy artillery batteries and laid antipersonnel mines along the shores of the reservoir whose water cools its six reactors, according to workers, residents, Ukrainian officials, and diplomats. The Ukrainian army holds the towns dotted on the opposite shore, some three miles away, but sees no easy way to attack the plant, given the inherent danger of artillery battles around active nuclear reactors.
> 
> The new infusion of weaponry effectively shields the plant from a counter-attack by Ukrainian forces, and amounts to something the carefully regulated atomic-energy industry has never seen before: the slow-motion transformation of a nuclear power station into a military garrison. In a lesser-scrutinised aspect of its war strategy, the Russian army is day-by-day positioning the weaponry around a nuclear plant that is among the world’s largest, using it to cement control of the front line where their advance through southern Ukraine ground to a halt.



This technique may be a useful one in future conflicts, provided of course those doing the attacking think it is also a bad ides to bomb a Nuclear plant.
Mick


----------



## 3 hound (6 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> This technique may be a useful one in future conflicts, provided of course those doing the attacking think it is also a bad ides to bomb a Nuclear plant.





Lol.


----------



## basilio (8 July 2022)

When millions of people start starving to death around the world and overthrow their Governments in anger and despair don't forget which brutal bastard caused the famine.

This is Russia at war with the world.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (10 July 2022)

good copy









						Inside the battle on the Eastern Front
					

I was given access to a secret Ukrainian base




					unherd.com
				




_Beyond Ukraine, Dima is especially positive about two things, or rather, two people. “Elon Musk’s Starlink is what changed the war in Ukraine’s favour,” he tells me. “Russia went out of its way to blow up all our comms. Now they can’t. Starlink works under Katyusha fire, under artillery fire. It even works in Mariupol.”

“I know you British have a complicated relationship with your Prime Minister, but here Boris Johnson has become something of a national hero,” he continues. “The NLAWs you have given us are the best. Easy to use — lock, load and move. Without them we wouldn’t be taking out so many Russian tanks. We knew from the beginning that Britain was a very ancient and important nation. Now we know it’s a country that stands by its word_.”

and another one from the 'southern front'








						Inside the Ukrainian resistance
					

In Kherson, Russian collaborators are being hunted




					unherd.com


----------



## Dona Ferentes (10 July 2022)

and also featuring in this BBC report









						Ukraine-Russia: Hidden tech war as Slovyansk battle looms
					

Ukrainian volunteers are taking part in a largely unseen battle to defend their territory with drones.



					www.bbc.com
				




Dnipro 1's drone intelligence unit. ...._ "IT guys who fight_". All of them are volunteers. Most of them have a background in information technology, and knew each other before the war started.....

............   Despite Russia's advantage in electronic warfare, Dmytro Podvorchanskyi believes his own troops' commercial experience and background in IT will help give them an edge.

While he sees Ukrainians as highly creative, in contrast he believes the Russian military adheres to more rigid military doctrines. One of his men says in a few years they will be better than the Russians, but the key question is whether they have long enough turn the tide.


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## basilio (15 July 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> good copy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I checked out the second story. Gritty, frightening, very real.  This is what  war,invasion and conquest mean. The drive to turn the population into collaborators with the Russian is sobering.  Does one refuse to deal with the Russians and get beaten up/killed by them or take the  30 pieces of silver and have a (figurative)  60 pieces of silver price on your head from loyal Ukrainians ?

Great find and IMV well worth reading to keep up with what is happening in Ukraine.


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## basilio (16 July 2022)

Russian treatment of a Ukrainian doctor they kidnapped, imprisoned and based.

Famed Ukrainian medic Yuliia 'Taira' Paievska describes hell of Russian captivity​Posted 3h ago3 hours ago
Space to play or pause, M to mute, left and right arrows to seek, up and down arrows for volume.





Captured Ukrainian medic records Mariupol efforts on helmet cam.
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article

The captive Ukrainian medic's eyeglasses had long since been taken away, and the face of the Russian man walking past her was a blur.
Key points:​
Taira recorded more than 256 gigabytes of harrowing footage showing her team's efforts to save the wounded in Ukraine
The 53-year-old medic was captured by pro-Russia forces on March 16 after giving her footage to journalists
She was 10kg lighter when she was released after three months, on June 17









						'Shoot me, but I won't confess': Ukrainian medic describes hell of Russian captivity
					

Taira constantly thinks about the prisoners she left behind in a tiny 3m by 6m prison cell where she was held by Russian forces.




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2022)

Change of tactics by Ukraine ?









						Russia claims 'sabotage' as military base in Crimea goes up in smoke
					

Russia blames the blasts at an ammunition storage facility in Crimea on an "act of sabotage" without naming the perpetrators.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Dona Ferentes (23 August 2022)

31 years since independence from the disintegrating USSR (24 Aug)
8 years since the push into Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk
Half a year (180 days) since the most recent invasion/ conflagration erupted


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## Dona Ferentes (19 September 2022)

First snows on the higher peaks of the Carpathians, in the far W of Ukraine.

I notice in many blogs the ground is now wet, and clothing layers are increasing. Conditions are changing. Trench life, and sleep times, will become tougher.

_During my time living in Europe, the apartment block's central heating would start up, on 15 Sept. As greenhorns (ingenue/ mangenue), we'd ask ourselves why. Within a week, it was clearly apparent._


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## noirua (21 September 2022)

Zelenskiy lays out peace formula as arrests at Russia anti-war protests pass 1,000 – as it happened
					

This blog is now closed




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008 (22 September 2022)




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## Value Collector (30 September 2022)

divs4ever said:


> won't be much trading if Russia uses nukes  , the chances are they would multiple launch  that's  something over 2000 warheads  plus some other nasty stuff basically used as decoys  ( they know NATO will NOT use discipline or precision   so will  throw all the dice and see how many Russians survive )



I don’t know if they would launch multiple, that would surely mean the end of russia.

But they might test the resolve of the western nations but doing a small tactical bomb


----------



## divs4ever (30 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know if they would launch multiple, that would surely mean the end of russia.
> 
> But they might test the resolve of the western nations but doing a small tactical bomb



 i disagree , Russia has been incredibly patient so far  , and the way things are going there is nothing they want ( except maybe the gold stockpiles ) in the West  they have almost everything they need inside their own borders 

 send one and  the West sends twenty  , may as well launch them all and see how  many ( NATO ) bases survive


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## Value Collector (30 September 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i disagree , Russia has been incredibly patient so far  , and the way things are going there is nothing they want ( except maybe the gold stockpiles ) in the West  they have almost everything they need inside their own borders
> 
> send one and  the West sends twenty  , may as well launch them all and see how  many ( NATO ) bases survive



I definitely wouldn’t call Russia's invasion patient.

In my opinion the war isn’t about them getting anything from the West, I believe it’s about them trying (and failing) to exert dominance and intimidate the west or maybe they are actual scared of NATO and really do want a buffer zone.


----------



## divs4ever (30 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I definitely wouldn’t call Russia's invasion patient.
> 
> In my opinion the war isn’t about them getting anything from the West, I believe it’s about them trying (and failing) to exert dominance and intimidate the west or maybe they are actual scared of NATO and really do want a buffer zone.



 well the civil war  had been percolating since 2014 DESPITE a peace agreement  signed by France , Germany and Ukraine  , the other signatories  had plenty of times to  deescalate the   the conflict , but no they gave 

 but it is interesting to see Ukraine shaping Western democratic values 

 maybe you would have preferred the NATO-style  interventions  such as Afghanistan , Iraq ,  Vietnam or Yugoslavia


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well the civil war  had been percolating since 2014 DESPITE a peace agreement  signed by France , Germany and Ukraine  , the other signatories  had plenty of times to  deescalate the   the conflict , but no they gave
> 
> but it is interesting to see Ukraine shaping Western democratic values
> 
> maybe you would have preferred the NATO-style  interventions  such as Afghanistan , Iraq ,  Vietnam or Yugoslavia



Well I wouldn’t call it a civil war.

I think the only thing pretecting Russian troops in Ukraine from being obliterated by NATO forces is the Nuclear Threat, it’s pretty much the only card they are holding at this stage.

If they play the full Nuclear Card by launching a full nuclear strike with multiple Nukes it’s the end for them.

How ever they may decide to drop one small nuke basically as a warning shot over NATOs head, that might allow them to extend the game and scare off Ukraines supporters.


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## InsvestoBoy (30 September 2022)

divs4ever said:


> the way things are going there is nothing they want ( except maybe the gold stockpiles ) in the West  they have almost everything they need inside their own borders




Modern economies that are disconnected from the global economy are screwed. 

If they want lives like Cuba (not that I support US sanction against Cuba) then they have "almost everything they need inside their own borders".

Otherwise, nope, it is not going to go well for them and it seems according to quite recent news that even they know this.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


The list of impacts in the article is just staggering.


----------



## divs4ever (1 October 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> Modern economies that are disconnected from the global economy are screwed.
> 
> If they want lives like Cuba (not that I support US sanction against Cuba) then they have "almost everything they need inside their own borders".
> 
> ...



 well Russia for several years  was playing the 'responsible world citizen'  helping with nuclear proliferation treaties  , the war on terrorism ,  trade agreements including cooperating alongside OPEC  and WTO , including honoring sanctions against Iran , Cuba and North Korea 

 seems  Russia has decided independence and the ability to select friends  was more important than joining  'a global cooperative ' ( with mindless obedience )  maybe Putin  couldn't bear to see all the improvement since the fall of the Soviet   Empire  go to waste 

 i grew up  with both 'Iron ' and ' Bamboo' curtains  and have seen then both lower  and both starting to be raised  again 

 just remember Russia  ( as a major exporter  of several commodities ) has not imposed many counter-sanctions yet  ( or proactively  ignored existing sanctions on several nations ) 

 PS i was also alive for the Cuban Missile Crisis  and the US attack on Grenada  ( so to ME the US appears hypocritical ans sanctimonious )

 AND just when you think all is going well there is Serbia  , NATO is due some serious payback over that


----------



## qldfrog (1 October 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well Russia for several years  was playing the 'responsible world citizen'  helping with nuclear proliferation treaties  , the war on terrorism ,  trade agreements including cooperating alongside OPEC  and WTO , including honoring sanctions against Iran , Cuba and North Korea
> 
> seems  Russia has decided independence and the ability to select friends  was more important than joining  'a global cooperative ' ( with mindless obedience )  maybe Putin  couldn't bear to see all the improvement since the fall of the Soviet   Empire  go to waste
> 
> ...



Sadly a bit irrelevant with the thread.
Where there is link is that now,there are 2 major independent economies Russia and China which will actually try their most to collapse the currently failing world order, economically as well,and can live outside the western sphere easily if as a block.
Painfully maybe but they will be warm,have food whereas the West will have BLM, metoo, FB but no heating and maybe no food.
The US has been leaving poisoned pills in recent history all over the world: to @divs4ever list, i would add Kosovo and Panama ..the local population has not the same story about Noriega than what you and I were given, that is sure.
Once worldwide crisis hits, the US will not find much support if broke..ohh except  Australia 🥴 and some EU countries.
In that context , i think we do not really consider the impact on the world economy of what is happening now in the EU.
People were worried by Greece? 
Germany needs 5000 gas tankers to be build to replace the missing pipelines inputs,and terminals..not even considering where the gas would come from..and we start october.
German economy is collapsed.
Putin could be replace by another clown US puppet tomorrow that would change nothing.there is a reason the US blew the pipes...
And even if we are not really aware here Germany is the  EU economy
Collapsing the EU economy in a 3 month period is a major economic event, a slow moving black swan.
We all have plenty of time to react.i somewhat doubt we can be saved by buying VAS or CBA.
Not that i do not appreciate that we are not in a much better situation here.
So buckets and buckets of reasons we should panic and why this could be much worse than the GFC


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## divs4ever (1 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Sadly a bit irrelevant with the thread.
> Where there is link is that now,there are 2 major independent economies Russia and China which will actually try their most to collapse the currently failing world order, economically as well,and can live outside the western sphere easily if as a block.
> Painfully maybe but they will be warm,have food whereas the West will have BLM, metoo, FB but no heating and maybe no food.
> The US has been leaving poisoned pills in recent history all over the world: to @divs4ever list, i would add Kosovo and Panama ..the local population has not the same story about Noriega than what you and I were given, that is sure.
> ...



 DON'T forget India   , India is trying the neutral  , balancing act  , AND if it can start cooperating in a meaningful way with Bangladesh , Sri Lanka , or Pakistan ( ideally all three )

 India ( if it can form a sub-bloc ) can easily rival  a healthy growing China 

 poisoned pills and you neglected Okinawa  ???

 am not 100% convinced it was the US  , ( Norway is well down on the suspect list  but it is there ) the UK is nuts enough to do that ( and they have all but formally declared war on Russia )

 but it won't help the collective West they  had already chosen economic suicide  , now maybe pockets ( in the West ) will remove their current governments ( elected officials AND bureaucrats ) and go through a painful recovery process  .. the UK for example gave themselves the tiniest chance with Brexit and then promptly squandered it 

 Putin will NOT be replaced by a puppet  he might be replaced by a full-on hawk though ( the Russian parliament is awash with them ) . 
 in that case a nuclear winter  is a high possibility  ( North Korea will be among the first to contribute ) ( am thinking India and Pakistan will wait and watch for a while )

 i was busy  on other things during the GFC  ( and just a poor working stiff with a recently deceased mother )   but thanks for the warning  i should buy more popcorn  ready for the education of my lifetime  , maybe some more notebooks as well for the lessons worth recording  ... maybe some extra matches  for the camp-fire to pop the corn  as well 

 and Albo has already  supported the Globalist/climate change line , so there is no hope there 


 but this collapse was always coming , i thought it would be mid-2013  but now we get the extra pain of 8 years of cheap fixes 

 on the plus side ... i get to properly stress-test my portfolio strategy ( and see what i got right ( and wrong )

 PS i was alarmed by Cyprus  that could easily repeat .. here


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## Dona Ferentes (1 October 2022)

divs4ever said:


> DON'T forget *India   *, India is trying the neutral  , balancing act  .........



got that in one


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## divs4ever (1 October 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> got that in one
> 
> View attachment 147542



 i see that as abundant room for growth ( and development spending )  ( and think of the energy efficiency  the local train barely accepts just the people hanging off  sides ( not even the ones on top )


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## bluekelah (1 October 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i disagree , Russia has been incredibly patient so far  , and the way things are going there is nothing they want ( except maybe the gold stockpiles ) in the West  they have almost everything they need inside their own borders
> 
> send one and  the West sends twenty  , may as well launch them all and see how  many ( NATO ) bases survive



IMHO Russia went into Ukraine as it was planning to join NATO and start building nuke silos. Once the Ukraine issue is sorted, Russia will likely put more pressure and possibly even enter Romania and Poland, which have functional "defense" Aegis Ashore systems, which are capable of launching _Tomahawk_ Land Attack Missiles (TLAM) carrying nukes directly into Major Russian cities.

Its a repeat of 1960s Cuban missle crisis where CIA put in launch sites in Turkey and USSR put in launch sites in Cuba, only this time, ROmania/Poland and Ukraine are too close for comfort hence Russia has directly gone in to secure Ukraine.

It's unlikely Russia will launch any nukes at this stage as they have more than enough troops and can just slowly secure Ukraine after which the 2 nuke capable sites NATO has are just across the border and can be easily taken out by drones or missile strikes.

Aegis Ashore ballistic missile defence system in Romania completes scheduled update​
US MDA plans to turn on Polish Aegis Ashore site in June, after years of delay​
Missile defense chief ‘confident’ Poland’s Aegis Ashore ready in 2023​






​


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## divs4ever (1 October 2022)

some think across to Odessa  is likely , maybe as far as Transmistria  ( part of Moldova ) Moldova seems to be going the diplomatic course  if so it should be safe while Putin is in the captains chair ( that might change if Medvedev  , or some others  take charge )

 one might wonder  if Russia  would go and help out Hungary  , if requested ( because Hungary MIGHT consider leaving the EU , but more likely it would be booted out ) 

 Russia MIGHT help out  ( or at least sell advanced weapons to ) Serbia

 personally i think Russia will take a year or two  to rebuild  ( and refurbish the factories ) in the newly acquired regions , and let the West  weaken under the sanctions and civil unrest  , and any reprisals China will inflict over their sanctioning , they will NOT have forgotten Huawei


----------



## divs4ever (1 October 2022)

now IF Russia  were to go on  the expansion path  , i would think Japan  would be a prime target  .. warm-water ports and easy access to Asia  , and South America 

 and a bit of revenge , North Korea would be very willing to be a piece of that payback  ( and so might China  )


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## bluekelah (1 October 2022)

divs4ever said:


> now IF Russia  were to go on  the expansion path  , i would think Japan  would be a prime target  .. warm-water ports and easy access to Asia  , and South America
> 
> and a bit of revenge , North Korea would be very willing to be a piece of that payback  ( and so might China  )




I believe russia will pause at Ukraine. Then try to get nato to decommission the Romania polish launch sites. After all no country wants nukes pointed at them so nearby.

Rest of the world should be going into a big  recession and likely monetary reset with BRICS possibly surviving with new moscow gold standard and china's digital yuan. 

In any case , we are very likely to see a much more divided geopolitical climate going forward.

And so long as the war is on, and rates are going up from inflation, it's gonna be very very bad macro climate for stocks.


Times like this there's no harm buffing up your precious metals portfolio as u never know when the war will blow up.


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## Value Collector (1 October 2022)

bluekelah said:


> I believe russia will pause at Ukraine. Then try to get nato to decommission the Romania polish launch sites. After all no country wants nukes pointed at them so nearby.




What are you talking about? There is no nukes in Romania or Poland pointed at Russia.

The launch sites you are talking about are defence sites, designed to shoot down Russian Nukes.


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## So_Cynical (2 October 2022)

bluekelah said:


> IMHO Russia went into Ukraine as it was planning to join NATO and start building nuke silos.
> 
> It's unlikely Russia will launch any nukes at this stage as they have more than enough troops and can just slowly secure Ukraine after which the 2 nuke capable sites NATO has are just across the border and can be easily taken out by drones or missile strikes.



The annexation that just happened was the original plan IMHO, the plan was to secure a border buffer, taking the whole country was a best case scenario that would of resulted in a puppet govt and the current annexation we now have.

Why Ukraine? because everything else is off the table, Poland, Finland the Baltics etc are off the table as a full NATO response is assured, nuke sites are somewhat irrelevant, NATO has range and tech and Russia surrounded, it would be a very short war.


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## Dona Ferentes (2 October 2022)

staying off thread, but trying to stick to facts






Russia has an estimated nuclear stockpile of 5977 warheads. On the strategic side (long-range weapons designed to attack an enemy directly on home territory), it has 1588 deployed – ready to go – of which about half are on land-based ballistic missiles, with the remainder on submarine-based ballistic missiles, or at heavy bomber bases. Others are in storage or reserve.

On the tactical side – what the NIP calls “non-strategic and defensive” – it’s harder to nail down a precise estimate. Various US intelligence agencies have put the number at between 1000 and 2000. If Putin did deploy a nuclear weapon, analysts agree it would likely be a tactical one.


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## DrBourse (2 October 2022)

This site provides some interesting info on "Who's Who" in the Global Firepower race.





						Global Firepower - 2022 World Military Strength Rankings
					

Reference detailing major and minor global military powers through accumulated statistics and rankings.



					www.globalfirepower.com


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## divs4ever (2 October 2022)

So_Cynical said:


> The annexation that just happened was the original plan IMHO, the plan was to secure a border buffer, taking the whole country was a best case scenario that would of resulted in a puppet govt and the current annexation we now have.
> 
> Why Ukraine? because everything else is off the table, Poland, Finland the Baltics etc are off the table as a full NATO response is assured, nuke sites are somewhat irrelevant, NATO has range and tech and Russia surrounded, it would be a very short war.



 i am thinking Russia will only absorb the areas where the majority is ethnic Russian  , absorbing possibly resentful majorities , is often hard work  ( and a long thankless task ) ( ask England about Northern Ireland )

 Russia will want extra productive regions not areas  riddled with insurgents and resistance group Chechnya should have taught them that 

 now  if they leave a 'rump ' Ukraine it runs the risk of being a failed state  , and that is just as  bad as a hostile region  in your own realm  , now Poland has strengthened it's ties with Western Ukraine  while Hungary and Romania have historic  ties with areas of Western Ukraine 

 would Russia condone the unwanted part of Ukraine  to be carved up by the neighbouring EU nations , and solve the 'poverty trap ' issue


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## SirRumpole (3 October 2022)

Who is killing the great businessmen of Russia ?









						'An epidemic of murder': What Russia's dying millionaires tell us about Vladimir Putin's tenacious grip on power
					

Russia's elite businessmen are dying in more and more suspicious circumstances. Human rights campaigner Bill Browder suspects the hand of the man in the Kremlin.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (3 October 2022)

The victory of Ukraine forces in Lyman and the devastation Russia has left behind.


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## bluekelah (3 October 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What are you talking about? There is no nukes in Romania or Poland pointed at Russia.
> 
> The launch sites you are talking about are defence sites, designed to shoot down Russian Nukes.




Aegis Ashore systems in Romania and Poland are supposed to be "defensive" missile sites loaded with missiles that can intercept ICBMs. They use the *Mark 41 Vertical Launching System* (*Mk 41 VLS*)  that are used on nuclear subs and destroyers








						Aegis Ashore | Missile Threat
					

Aegis Ashore is the land-based variant of the Navy’s Aegis Weapons System and the centerpiece of Phases II and III of the European Phased Adaptive Approach (EPAA). The system incorporates land-based versions of the various components used on Aegis ships, including the deckhouse, AN/SPY-1 radar...




					missilethreat.csis.org
				




However, they are also fully capable of launching Tomahawk missiles which can be loaded with nuclear warheads.








						Tomahawk (missile) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




If you had been following the Russian troop buildup in Feb before the invasion you would have come across this article


			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


AFAIK after the Cuban missile crisis in the 1960s, USA had decommisioned all nuclear missles in Turkey. Currently there are no nuclear missiles directly pointed at Russia from Europe. 

Hence this is a sticking point for Russia as its the closest nuclear response NATO has,  they can just swap some tomahawks with armed warheads into the Aegis launch system and away they go into Russian Cities. Of course NATO can still fly bombers, use their ship/submarine based tomahawks to nuke Russia, but those are not as quick or easy as pressing a button at those launch sites.

At the same time Russia does not have any direct nuclear response capability as they have already withdrawn from Cuba, even had to send their nuke capable bombers back to Russia.


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## bluekelah (3 October 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i am thinking Russia will only absorb the areas where the majority is ethnic Russian  , absorbing possibly resentful majorities , is often hard work  ( and a long thankless task ) ( ask England about Northern Ireland )
> 
> Russia will want extra productive regions not areas  riddled with insurgents and resistance group Chechnya should have taught them that
> 
> ...



The point of all this is to try and prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and allow NATO a strategic military foothold in Ukraine (and putting nuclear weapons even nearer to Russia..

Important things were already happening before this , like the Ukrainian power grid, they were actually in the midst of switching from Russian to European grid and running tests in FEb but Russia then invaded and now its a mess.

Most Ukrainians speak and understand russian, after all they were part of the USSR. Even Kyiv was the ancient capital of the original Russian tsardom/empire. Ukraine is also rich in farmland and resources, I do not think putin would mind taking over the whole country just to stop it falling into NATO hands.


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## Value Collector (3 October 2022)

bluekelah said:


> Aegis Ashore systems in Romania and Poland are supposed to be "defensive" missile sites loaded with missiles that can intercept ICBMs. They use the *Mark 41 Vertical Launching System* (*Mk 41 VLS*)  that are used on nuclear subs and destroyers
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, As I said there is no nukes pointed at Russia is Romania or Poland, the USA abandoned equipping tomahawks with Nukes 10years ago.

The reason Russia is upset with the defensive systems is not because they can be reloaded with nukes, but because they may counter act a Russian attack, so it weakens russias position.

It’s a bit like having a hostile neighbour armed with a pistol, that becomes peaceful because they know you also have a pistol. If you see that neighbour putting on a bullet proof vest and helmet, the peace is at risk because now one sides pistol might be less effective. 

Nukes can be fired from all sorts of equipment, they can even be fired from Artillery, so I don’t know why Russia would be particularly scared of the defence system, except for the fact it reduces their power to attack.


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## wayneL (7 October 2022)

Perhaps this movie should be rerun, instead of crappy race-swapping remakes of The Little Mermaid and Scooby Doo.

Just a thought.


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## DB008 (8 October 2022)

Zelensky






Your browser is not able to display this video.







.​


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## basilio (8 October 2022)

*BIG *news in Crimea. Putin will go ballistic... Crimea is now almost severed from Russian support

Key bridge linking Crimea to Russia hit by huge explosion​Images show burning train carriages and collapsed road sections on the Kerch bridge, a key supply route for Russian troops opened by Vladimir Putin in 2018

*What we know on day 227 of the invasion*
*Russia-Ukraine war – live news*






Fire on the Kerch bridge linking Crimea to Russia after the huge explosion early on Saturday. Photograph: Reuters

Peter Beaumont in Kyiv

@petersbeaumont1
Sat 8 Oct 2022 08.23 BSTFirst published on Sat 8 Oct 2022 06.22 BST


The Kerch bridge from Russia to Crimea, a hated symbol of the Kremlin’s occupation of the southern Ukrainian peninsula and one of Vladimir Putin’s prestige projects, has been hit by a huge explosion.

Images from the bridge showed a fiercely burning fire engulfing at least two railway carriages from a train on the bridge, accompanied by a vast column of black smoke, and one half of the parallel road bridge collapsed into the Kerch Strait.

The explosion, which witnesses said could be heard miles away, occurred before 6am on Saturday while a train was crossing the bridge, with Russian officials blaming it on a car bomb.
“Today at 6.07am (03.07 GMT) on the road traffic side of the Crimean bridge … a car bomb exploded, setting fire to seven oil tankers being carried by rail to Crimea,” Russian news agencies said, citing the national anti-terrorism committee, although that claim could not immediately be verified.









						Key bridge linking Crimea to Russia hit by huge explosion
					

Images show burning train carriages and collapsed road sections on the Kerch bridge, a key supply route for Russian troops opened by Vladimir Putin in 2018




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## noirua (15 October 2022)




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## noirua (17 October 2022)

Putin to turn to 'tactical' nukes in Ukraine? Possible scenarios of what may lie ahead


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## bluekelah (18 October 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, As I said there is no nukes pointed at Russia is Romania or Poland, the USA abandoned equipping tomahawks with Nukes 10years ago.
> 
> The reason Russia is upset with the defensive systems is not because they can be reloaded with nukes, but because they may counter act a Russian attack, so it weakens russias position.
> 
> ...



With landed systems they can launch missiles at anytime without warning. Other forms of deployment require moving the nuclear sub/ship/artillery/bombers into position which would allow much larger window of opportunity to deploy countermeasures.


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## Value Collector (18 October 2022)

bluekelah said:


> With landed systems they can launch missiles at anytime without warning. Other forms of deployment require moving the nuclear sub/ship/artillery/bombers into position which would allow much larger window of opportunity to deploy countermeasures.



They can only fire a nuke if they have a nuke to fire, which they won’t in that system, as I said it’s designed to shoot down nukes, that’s the reason russia is upset.

Mutually assured destruction only works if both sides aren’t wearing bullet proof vest, Russia is upset that NATO is putting on a bullet proof vest, not that it’s pointing guns at them.


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## bluekelah (20 October 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They can only fire a nuke if they have a nuke to fire, which they won’t in that system, as I said it’s designed to shoot down nukes, that’s the reason russia is upset.
> 
> Mutually assured destruction only works if both sides aren’t wearing bullet proof vest, Russia is upset that NATO is putting on a bullet proof vest, not that it’s pointing guns at them.



I would encourage u to read this article from 2019.









						Sunday's US Missile Launch, Explained.
					

Arms Control Twitter has been abuzz since yesterday’s announcement that the United States had conducted a surprise launch of a Tomahawk missile on Sunday afternoon.




					fas.org
				




[
*Why is everyone so worked up about the launcher?*

This is where things get really interesting. The Mk-41 VLS launcher that was used to launch the Tomahawk is the same type of launcher that would be used to launch SM-3 interceptors from Aegis Ashore ballistic missile defense stations in Romania and Poland, once the latter station is completed.]

Usa already started testing tomahawk launching in 2019, the Romanian and polished "defence stations" are now tomahawk capable.

So yeah they can claim the sites are defense only but it's nuke capable as well. Currently we know publicly tomahawks are not equipped with nukes but its not really rocket science to equip them with nukes as the tech already exists.


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## basilio (1 November 2022)

*Ukraine power, water supplies smashed across the country.*
No water, no power = no sanitation, no food, strangled industry

Winter plus no water, no power = mass disease, widespread hunger, civilian deaths beyond measure as cold and hunger take their course

Welcome to Ukraine 1933-4 revisited courtesy of their Russian saviours.









						Russia targets Ukraine energy and water infrastructure in missile attacks
					

As winter looms, Moscow escalates missile attacks on vital utilities such as hydro plants, substations and dams




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Holodomor - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Evidence of widespread cannibalism was documented during the Holodomor:[52][53]



> Survival was a moral as well as a physical struggle. A woman doctor wrote to a friend in June 1933 that she had not yet become a cannibal, but was "not sure that I shall not be one by the time my letter reaches you." The good people died first. Those who refused to steal or to prostitute themselves died. Those who gave food to others died. Those who refused to eat corpses died. Those who refused to kill their fellow man died. Parents who resisted cannibalism died before their children did.[54]


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## basilio (1 November 2022)

More to come from Putin. Clearly determined to turn Ukraine into a festering wasteland.
The end game ? A failed Ukraine state led by a  Ukrainian  vassal. 
All agriculture under the control of Russian entities as well as power infrastructure (nuclear power stations)  and  natural resources.
A population ground into the dirt.

Be interesting to see the Ukraine response.  Perhaps some selective head hunting ?
Russian President Vladimir Putin says attacks on Ukraine infrastructure 'not all we could have done'​Posted 1h ago1 hours ago




 Ukraine said Russia launched 55 cruise missiles on Monday but most were shot down.(AP: Russian Defense Ministry Press Service)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article

Russian strikes on Ukrainian infrastructure on Monday were in part a response to a drone attack on the Black Sea fleet over the weekend, President Vladimir Putin has said during a news conference in Sochi, indicating more action could follow.
Key points:​
Russian strikes left 80 per cent of consumers in Kyiv without water and hundreds throughout Ukraine without power
Ukraine said it shot down 45 cruise missiles Russia launched on Monday
Russia says it will donate 25,000 tonnes of wheat to crisis-hit Lebanon

"That's not all we could have done," he told a televised news conference.
Russia sent a barrage of missiles over the weekend that hit critical infrastructure in Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities.
Officials said 80 per cent of consumers in Kyiv were left without water supplies "due to the damage to a power facility" and hundreds of localities in seven Ukrainian regions were left without power.









						Putin says attacks on Ukraine infrastructure 'not all we could have done'
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin says strikes on Ukrainian infrastructure were in part a response to a drone attack on the Black Sea fleet, indicating more action could follow.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (1 November 2022)

On a lighter note re Vlad (The Impaler) Putin

A first look at Vladimir Putin's exciting new column in the Daily Express​ 28th October 2022 





Go Premium

*GREETINGS like-minded English people. Are you an old, angry white man wanting to talk freely out of your xrse without fear of contradiction? Then this is the column for you.
Here are some exclusive snippets of what will I will be discussing over the coming weeks.

On women*
Battleaxes. Dominant. Impossible to live with. It’s just as well that they’re second-class citizens. See what happens when you give them a bit of power? Your Liz Truss! No woman has led Russia, except the crying woman Gorbachev. I like Margaret Thatcher though. Genuinely terrifying.

*On the LGBTQ+ community*
In Russia there are no lesbians, gays, bisexuals or transgender people. Never have been and never will be. We are all MEN, except for the women. And they are tougher than your weak, snivelling males. You listen to too much ABBA. _Dancing Queen_ is the root of all your decadent Western problems.

*On protestors*
At every mass demonstration, whatever their banners say, what they are really shouting is ‘I need a haircut!’ Round them up like dogs. Shear them like sheep. I know Express readers agree with this. In fact, I think you crazy old bastards would press for harsher punishment even than me.

*On Boris Johnson*
It was a terrible thing that he was stabbed in the back. He was a true champion of Express readers and, if you know what I mean, a true friend to me. One of us. He will be back, of that I have no doubt. There must be some way I – sorry, I mean, you – can help him make Britain great again.

*On the EU*
I despise it. A threat to our sovereignty. No man can call himself a man if he is ordered about by Belgians, Like you, I did everything I could to help Britain leave it. But unlike you I don’t have to suffer the consequences but instead laugh heartily from Kremlin. Ha.









						A first look at Vladimir Putin's exciting new column in the Daily Express
					

GREETINGS like-minded English people. Are you an old, angry white man wanting to talk freely out of your arse without fear of contradiction from those too scared to answer you back? Then this is the column for you.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


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## noirua (8 November 2022)

Zelenskiy open only to 'genuine' talks with Russia
					

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said he was open to talks with Russia, but only "genuine" negotiations that would restore Ukraine's borders, grant it compensation for Russian attacks and punish those responsible for war crimes.




					www.reuters.com


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## Craton (9 November 2022)

Need to enable English sub-titles but one of my fav YouTube channels re. the conflict. Interviews (no, not interrogations) with Russian POW by Lviv Media.

This one is a classic. How a not-so-young, self proclaimed Russian drunkard was coherced into the war.


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## noirua (16 November 2022)




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## moXJO (16 November 2022)

noirua said:


>




Russia denying it was firing in the area. I'd want hard hard proof before any escalation.


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## noirua (16 November 2022)

moXJO said:


> Russia denying it was firing in the area. I'd want hard hard proof before any escalation.



If Russia had not attacked Ukraine then no missiles would have been fired at all. So in every way it is Russia's fault. They are totally responsible. Over and out.


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## rcw1 (17 November 2022)

Good afternoon,
Published New Corp Media today (17/11/22):

Andrew and Nicola Forrest, have invested a headline-grabbing US$500m ($746.3m) as seed funding of a multi billion dollar fund to rebuild Ukraine in just one generation with green digital technology.

Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky hailed the Ukraine Green Growth Initiative on Thursday at the New Economy Forum in Singapore, saying “Andrew and I have agreed we will not replace communist-era rubbish Russian infrastructure, instead we will leapfrog to the latest technology. We will take advantage of the fact that what the Russians have destroyed can readily be replaced with the latest, most modern green and digital infrastructure.”

Dr Forrest, who chairs Fortescue Mining Group and the green hydrogen company, Fortescue Future Industries, will invest the half billion dollars through his and his wife’s private investment company, Tattarang, and predicts that rebuilding Ukraine will be the “ fastest growth economy for a decade or so at least in Europe and for several years in the world”.

Earlier this year Dr Forrest famously described investment in Russia as “blood money’’ and since then he has privately helped fund the first humanitarian grain shipment out of Ukraine in August, and helped Ukrainian farmers with grain storage facilities through his philanthropic organisation Minderoo Foundation.

He has been quietly driving in and out of Ukraine’s capital Kyiv throughout the eight months of the war meeting with Ukraine’s leadership and intensifying those visits in recent months. Around June he also met with Blackrock’s Larry Fink in New York City which helped consolidate the fund’s idea.

Dr Forrest told The Australian the Ukraine green growth initiative is expected to swell to at least US$100 billion and that it will be ready to go from the moment Ukraine is able to begin rebuilding after Russia’s war ends.

“I feel really confident that there'll be a bunch of various institutions and people who have had any appreciation of the economic miracles after World War Two in Germany, or in South Korea. They know that they do not have a downtrodden population here, they have not suffered for years, nor have had a dreadful world war and tyranny up to that point. They've had a free economy, they have suffered an invasion. They're proud, intelligent, highly energised, patriotic people who are very well educated. If there is a scenario where the Marshall Plan could massively accelerate economic growth, it is this.

“But this will not lock in for years after the cessation of hostilities, as happened in World War Two, this will lock in on the first day of the cessation of hostilities and seek immediately to rebuild the primary infrastructure which the Russians are hell bent on destroying. Our discussions with the president's office is that yes, you can do this.’’

Mr Zelensky said the project was particularly timely because of Russia’s terror on Ukraine civil infrastructure.


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## DB008 (17 November 2022)

Money washing

FTX

Dems

Ukraine

Laundry


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## Knobby22 (17 November 2022)

Nah, doesn't wash with me.....boom boom!


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## farmerge (18 November 2022)

Intersting to see that Twiggy is hoping to help out in the Ukraine to the tune of half a billion dollars. obviously this gift of enterprise will reap massive benefits for his foundation by serious percentages, and if Russia is made to pay then the sky will be the limit.


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## mullokintyre (18 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Nah, doesn't wash with me.....boom boom!



Nothing personal like, but I probably wouldn't want to wash with you either.
Mick


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## bux2000 (23 November 2022)

Ukraine quietly abolishes corruption oversight rule
					

Zelensky’s move to cut financial monitoring of public officials breaks Ukraine’s pledge to the EU, anti-corruption activists in Kiev said




					www.rt.com
				




Just saying

bux


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## IFocus (23 November 2022)

bux2000 said:


> Ukraine quietly abolishes corruption oversight rule
> 
> 
> Zelensky’s move to cut financial monitoring of public officials breaks Ukraine’s pledge to the EU, anti-corruption activists in Kiev said
> ...




Quoting Russian news ?


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## basilio (23 November 2022)

This is a day in the life of Joseph Stalin in 1938. Well worth remembering the recent history of Russian dictators. 
Outstanding story. Brings together so many elements of the Man of Steel.


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## DB008 (28 November 2022)

Biden admin scrambles to track $20B in Ukraine aid as​House Republicans warn of audits​​Biden's admin reportedly inspected just 10% of weapons going to Ukraine​between February and November​
President Biden's administration is scrambling to track the nearly $20 billion in military aid it has sent to Ukraine as Republicans warn of impending audits when they take control of the House in January.​​Likely future House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has said his party will not be giving Ukraine a "blank check" to fend off Russia's invasion. A potential audit would determine how much, if any, of the U.S. aid is ending up in the wrong hands. The Biden administration's previous tracking efforts have inspected only a fraction of the aid provided to the country.​​The Republican push to ramp up oversight enjoys some bipartisan support in Congress. Some staunch Ukraine allies fear the party will cut off aid to the country entirely, however.​​Firebrand Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., has vowed to "hold our government accountable" for Ukraine spending, and some of her colleagues across the aisle are echoing the message.​
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...20b-ukraine-aid-house-republicans-warn-audits



.
	

		
			
		

		
	







.
​


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## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

You show me yours, i'll show you mine.









						US Air Force unveils first new bomber in more than three decades
					

Almost every aspect of the B-21 Raider program is classified, as the Pentagon gives the public its first look at the stealth aircraft.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (4 December 2022)

In a not unsurprising development, there are suggestions that foreign supplied weapons are filtering across borders to other  theatres of war and insurgence.
From the Finnish news agency


> The National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) says their preliminary intelligence suggests some weapons sent to Ukraine might have fallen into criminal hands in Finland.
> "Weapons shipped [by various countries] to Ukraine have also been found in Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands," NBI Detective Superintendent *Christer Ahlgren* told Yle.
> 
> International media outlets have reported that the European law enforcement agency Europol has anticipated criminal gangs stashing weapons in border areas. This past summer Europol issued a statement(siirryt toiseen palveluun) warning that the proliferation of firearms and explosives in Ukraine could lead to an increase in firearms and munitions trafficked into the EU via established smuggling routes or online platforms.
> ...



And now the Nigerian president has chimed in as well. From Zero hedge


> The Nigerian government says that foreign-supplied weapons transferred from the West to the Ukrainian government have begun to proliferate in the west African region. The illegal arms have begun to "filter" to the region, Nigeria's president said.
> An urgent warning was recently issued by President Muhammadu Buhari himself. An official statement posted to the website of the Nigerian presidency's office said that Buhari "urged more vigilance and tightening of security around borders, drawing attention to the increased number of arms, ammunition, and other *weapons from the Russia and Ukraine war in the Lake Chad Basin*."
> President Buhari said, "Regrettably, the situation in the Sahel and the raging war in Ukraine serve as major sources of weapons and fighters that bolster the ranks of the terrorists in the Lake Chad Region. A substantial proportion of the arms and ammunition procured to execute the war in Libya continues to find its way to the Lake Chad Region and other parts of the Sahel."
> 
> ...



Of course no evidence is provided that these  weapons have been  traded, but  given the yanks left a lot of stuff in Afghanistan, and still don't really (or admit)  what the value was , it would not surprise to see of that weaponry being traded by the Taliban to the brothers.
Mick


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## sptrawler (20 December 2022)

Well it wasn't as though the EU wasn't told it needed to get its military in order.  



			Puma tank failure is 'heavy setback' for Germany - defence ministry


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## sptrawler (22 December 2022)

Well something needs to bring this pain and suffering to an end, way too much touchy touchy feel good stuff, bring it on get it sorted and move on IMO.
FFS how long do you stop the ongoing bullying, in my experience once civil discussion and bargaining has finished, it is time to sort it out one way or another. Obviously Putin isn't going to play nice, why don't they give him the ultimatum, you chuck a nuke and we will fry you?
Get on with it.
It's like everything else today, don't face the issue, dance around it and hope it goes away e.g house prices, why do they keep going up? because people borrow more to buy them, but why do they let us borrow more? because you ask for more and give them information to pass guidelines, but why didn't they say interest rates could go up? Well because interest rates have never been this low, so who knows? But the long term average on interest rates in Australia is between 5% and 7%, But what is long term average?








						Kremlin warns more arms to Ukraine aggravates war, vows to develop nuclear forces
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin says Moscow will take lessons from the conflict and expand its military forces with special emphasis on nuclear.




					www.smh.com.au
				



*Kyiv: *The Kremlin has warned that increasing the supply of US arms to Ukraine will aggravate the devastating 10-month war ignited by Russia’s invasion, and Russia’s defence minister called for expanding Moscow’s military by at least 500,000 people.
Speaking during a meeting with his top military brass, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Moscow would take lessons learnt in the conflict to “develop our armed forces and strengthen the capability of our troops”. He said special emphasis would go to developing nuclear forces, which he described as “the main guarantee of Russia’s sovereignty”.

Jeez I can't wait to get over these Christmas holidays, I didn't sign up for all these grandkids. 🤪


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## basilio (2 January 2023)

Came across this story about how the USSR dealt with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers left limbless from WW2.  
Grim beyond belief.

One of the appalling sub stories is how General Zhukov sent lines of infantry into German minefields outside Berlin in 1945.  They cleared the mines with their bodies.  This was to save the Russian Tanks. 









						THE SOVIET WAR INVALIDS WERE SHOT DEAD BY THE RULERS
					

"In 1949, before the celebration of the 70th anniversary of the Great Stalin, veterans, invalids of the Second World War, were shot dead in the USSR. Some shot, some taken to the distant islands in the North and remote corners of Siberia for further disposal. Valaam is a concentration camp for in...




					ruuawar.quora.com


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## basilio (2 January 2023)

At Midnight on New Years Eve  it seems that the Ukrainians blasted a vocational college that was housing hundreds of Russian soldiers. 
Absolutely nothing left of it.

It seems the Russians stored their munitions in the basements


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## rcw1 (6 January 2023)

Good morning
Local Media (New Corp) Nice story written about an ADF soldier based in Townsville 3 RAR:

Joshua Green: Townsville soldier recognised with Hassett Award for Ukraine work​A young Townsville soldier has received his battalion’s first ever medal recognition for his work in Ukraine. See how the armoured vehicle expert ‘skinned the cat’.

Daneka Hill

less than 2 min read
January 6, 2023 - 12:00PM
Townsville Bulletin

A Townsville soldier who helped deliver armoured personnel carriers to Ukraine and created training programs for Ukrainian soldiers has been recognised with the Hassett Award.  Corporal Joshua Green from the 3rd battalion (3 RAR) said it meant a lot to receive the award, which recognises outstanding junior leadership.

“I was told to come up with a training program for the armoured vehicles,” Corporal Green said.  “We got tasked to come up with a training package and skin the cat, and I did.”

The training was part of Australia’s overall material assistance to Ukraine.
There was a second, deeper significance when the Hassett Award was handed over to Corporal Green.

The award was created by Sir Francis Hassett who commanded the 3 RAR in Korea - but it’s never been given to a 3 RAR soldier until now.
Corporal Green said it’s a massive honour to be the first.  The Hassett Award was received by Corporal Green in Canberra on November 24.


Kind regards
rcw1


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