# Abbott's counter terrorism measures



## Craton (6 August 2014)

My local fish wrapper reported today that the Abbott govt. wants to introduce new counter terrorism measures which proposes to force internet providers to keep metadata of all our online and phone usage for up to two yrs.

A quick Google Fu: 
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...fight-homegrown-terrorism-20140805-3d65m.html

http://australianpolitics.com/2014/08/05/counter-terrorism-measures.html

No doubt someone has to fund the cost of building the much needed data centres to store all this data. I guess user (you and me) pays again. Apart from privacy issues, I'm not too sure that this will work as Big Brother plans as I've heard that terrorists and criminals are skilled in the use of carrier pigeon, encrypted networks (VPN) and other nefarious means of communication. Why, even old Aussie Post may get a boost in snail mail usage 

The one's targeted as always will seek and fund ways to circumvent any measure to detect, disrupt and detain. So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?


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## burglar (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*



Craton said:


> ... So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?




I propose that we confuse and confound them all by starting an online talk-back radio station.


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*



Craton said:


> The one's targeted as always will seek and fund ways to circumvent any measure to detect, disrupt and detain. So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?




The proposed data retention measures assumes everyone using the internet in this country is a criminal or terrorist. 

That is plainly absurd, and so are the proposed measures. Putting a financial load on the ISP's and then on us, in a broad sweeping but horrendously expensive and inefficient manner is not the best way to tackle the problem of either terrorism or crime.

Well placed intelligence networks that  target the people most likely to be 'persons of interest' is much more likely to be effective. The  terrorist plots discovered in this country have been reported by people close to the perpetrators.

I suggest a campaign to encourage those in the know or to have informed suspicions to report these to the investigators. This is a far more effective way to handle the situation than using a great big sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut.


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

$40 a year allows between 3 and 5 devices per account to avoid this proposed legislation.  A quick anonymous vpn google search will provide plenty of providers with servers located all around the world that do not log and have no ability to link web site access back to the user.  I've been using such a service for a few years now.  partly over privacy concerns, and partly so I can have safe internet access when on holiday.  Anyone using free wifi without a VPN is just asking for trouble IMHO.

SGP Technologies BLACKPHONE allows fully encrypted phone calls end to end.  So unless they've physically bugged ya phone it's safe from eavesdropping.

All it will do is what has occurred in the USA and let law enforcement agencies - and what we define as law enforcement in this country is not just the police - without warrants to trawl through people's personal lives for little to no benefit to society.

Then we'll have the cost of getting all the letters out of the envelopes so now personal data is stored with the meta data - may not be totally automated.  The massive honeypots of data will be so alluring to hackers.  If someone does have incriminating evidence stored, is a verifiable hack of the data enough reasonable doubt to make the data inadmissible as evidence?  How does one confirm the integrity of the data?  Considering how the movie studios got their law suits muddle up so many times you'd have to figure the same sort of mistakes are going to happen when you have hundreds to thousands of times more data.

Considering how members of the Government behaved when previously with Muhammed Haneef, am I right to fear a frack up will be hidden or covered up until a person's life has been destroyed?

I'd also like to add that ISPs are currently NOT storing this kind of data.  The Government is being outright deceitful on this.  The amount of extra information they want to be stored is quite considerable.  Every IP connection that every internet enabled device creates will have to be logged.  An average user would rack up at least a few hundred a day.  Gammers probably a lot more, and those using skype or whatsapping friends would potentially rack up thousands.  Yes, every time you send / receive a whatsapp message there's a data point to be stored.  Every time you skype, use line for a call.  Every time you do a google search it's supposed to be stored.  Pretty much every time you use an app on a phone it will generate multiple data stores.  Apps running background process will create data stores.  Every push email , automated weather, FB update will add to it.

Basically the Govt is planning to generate Everest sized haystacks in the hopes of recording the odd needle location!


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## Knobby22 (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal. 

Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.


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## Craton (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

Thanks for the replies. Similar thoughts as my own although burglar's idea 







> I propose that we confuse and confound them all by starting an online talk-back radio station.



 hadn't crossed my mind. Perhaps we could speak in tongues. 



Knobby22 said:


> I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal.
> 
> Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.




As per:



sydboy007 said:


> I'd also like to add that ISPs are currently NOT storing this kind of data.




ISP's and Telco's do keep logs but not metadata AFAIK unless court ordered to do so.
Dec 2013 and Telstra logging: http://delimiter.com.au/2013/12/10/telstra-logging-customers-web-email-history/



> “Telstra does not routinely collect or store our customers’ telecommunications data to undertake mass surveillance on behalf of Australian national security agencies. Intrinsic to providing telecommunications services is generating data, for example the time, location and duration of telephone calls. We generate this data as part of providing a service to our customers and we store it for as long as it makes sense commercially and legally to do so. For instance, we are required to hold billing data for up to six years to meet out obligations under the Telecommunications Consumer Protection Code.”




Interesting stats from a Mar 2014 opt in USA survey on phone metadata and its content:

http://webpolicy.org/2014/03/12/metaphone-the-sensitivity-of-telephone-metadata/



> At the outset of this study, we shared the same hypothesis as our computer science colleagues””we thought phone metadata could be very sensitive. We did not anticipate finding much evidence one way or the other, however, since the MetaPhone participant population is small and participants only provide a few months of phone activity on average.
> 
> We were wrong. We found that phone metadata is unambiguously sensitive, even in a small population and over a short time window. We were able to infer medical conditions, firearm ownership, and more, using solely phone metadata




So it is very easy to profile and hence, use this information.

Personally, I am very opposed to this proposed measure and have emailed my local MP to convey my concerns and vehement opposition to this draconian measure. I've no issue with "persons of interest" being targeted but to brand all Australians with the same brush is immoral, unethical and un-Australian.

So too with privacy. No amount of govt. guarantee will allay my fears that the data will be safe and secure from misuse, abuse, profiling, hacking and so much more.

Ah Tony, just when I was starting to take a shine to you. Like the Section 18c amendment being quashed, this hair brained Big Brother idea must meet the same inevitable fate.


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*



Knobby22 said:


> I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal.
> 
> Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.




ISPs do collect some form of metadata to help with billing, but a smaller set than what the Govt is proposing to collect.  They do not STORE it for 2 years.  That is where the cost is going to explode.

basically the Govt is doing the half truth to make what they sound believable, but they're really just trying to dupe the public into supporting this.


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## McLovin (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

The party of small government strikes again.

Now we wait for the usual "but if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about" cheer squad.


> On Wednesday morning, Prime Minister Tony Abbott appeared to indicate the web browser history of Australian internet users could be included in the definition of metadata that telcos would then store for two years.
> 
> ‘’It’s not what you’re doing on the internet, it’s the sites you’re visiting, it’s not the content, it’s the sites [where] you’ve been,’




Which makes me think Tony Abbott doesn't know how the interwebs works. Oh do explain Dear Leader how knowing what sites a person is visiting on the internet isn't knowing what they're doing on the internet?


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

Further to the thought bubble process that the Government has been going through.

I missed the announcement that the Govt wants to force people to handover their encryption keys for VPN services.  That's definitely a step loser to the surveillance state.

I've only pasted a few relevant paragraphs but he entire article is worth a read if you want to get a better understanding of what the Government is REALLY proposing to do.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/06/australias_metadata_debate_is_an_utter_shambles/

Within a single day of the prime minister, Tony Abbott, taking to the microphone with attorney-general George Brandis and foreign minister Julie Bishop to announce the plan as a raft of counter-terrorism measures, the PM has:


Broadened the justification for metadata retention from preventing terrorism to crime-fighting “in general”;
Stated that the new laws are needed because carriers already store the data the government wants;
Asserted that metadata retention will involve no cost to carriers because they already collect the data the government wants; and
Broadened the scope of the data collection to Web browsing history, while simultaneously trotting out the national security establishment's falsehood that metadata collection is no more than “reading what's on the envelope”.

In a single day, the prime minister has put himself at odds with statements made by the national security establishment – most usually from the director-general of ASIO, David Irvine – to parliamentary committees examining data retention, security laws, and telecommunications interception laws.

On the need for new laws, Irvine is on the record as saying new data needs to be retained, because the Internet is different from the telephone network, where call data records are required for billing purposes.

*ISPs currently don't keep per-communication metadata records for Web access, for Skype calls, for Tor connections, for e-mails and all the rest. Australia's national security and law enforcement agencies all want that data collected.*

The PM, however, believes it already is collected, telling the ABC's Michael Brissenden that “the metadata we're talking about is information that is already kept”.

“All we want is for the telecommunications companies to continue to keep the person sending the information, the person to whom the information is being sent, the time it was sent, and the place it was sent from,” he said to Brissenden on the national radio programme AM.

The “envelope” metaphor is pervasive. The Register notes that it was used by Irvine as recently as July, and was used yesterday by Alistair MacGibbon of the Centre for Internet Safety (a kind of spook think-tank at the ANU) on Sydney's ABC 702 Drive show in conversation with presenter Richard Glover yesterday (August 5).

The “envelope” metaphor is a dangerous falsehood – and it's one that tripped up the PM in conversation with Channel Nine television, when he decided to expand on it.

“It's not the content of the letter, it's what's on the envelope … it's not what you're doing on the Internet, it's the sites you're visiting. It's not the content, it's just where you've been, so to speak.”

*Once again, the prime minister seems to have contradicted Irvine, who in July said Web browser history is out-of-scope for metadata retention, saying “The principle is that web surfing … or, indeed, Googling 'Al-Qaeda atrocities' … is not picked up by us, not regarded by us as metadata”.*

Then there's the question of why: yesterday's focus on terrorism has been expanded by the prime minister to include general crime-fighting. Quoting again from his interview with Michael Brissenden: “all of the expert advice from our counter-terrorist agencies is that this is absolutely critical, not just in the fight against terrorism, but in crime-fighting more generally.”

*The Register would argue that political confusion about the entire debate – what is metadata, what will be kept, and what the agencies want – is dangerous. It greatly increases the likelihood that the government will be given a legislative agenda by the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), The Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS), the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD) and the Australian Federal Police (AFP), and will enact that legislation without grasping its import until later.*

*What of crypto?
Keep in mind that in the rush to debate yesterday's announcement, nobody seems to have considered the interaction between metadata retention and the Department of the Attorney General's desire to enact laws to force Australians to hand over encryption keys.*

That emerged back in March – sufficiently long ago to have slipped everyone's attention.

At least one thing that's indisputably “metadata” would be the fact that someone's contacted a site offering VPN services, or that their e-mail negotiated a crypto session, or even that a corporate router began its connection to a service provider or another corporate router by negotiating encryption.


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*

Hopefully Labor and the Greens will save us from the government's silliness again, although Labor previously tried to put similar legislation through, but canned it after objections from senior Liberals

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...new-internet-tax/story-fn59niix-1227013916569

Funny how the worm turns isn't it ?


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2014)

*Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures*



SirRumpole said:


> Hopefully Labor and the Greens will save us from the government's silliness again, although Labor previously tried to put similar legislation through, but canned it after objections from senior Liberals
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...new-internet-tax/story-fn59niix-1227013916569
> 
> Funny how the worm turns isn't it ?




i want to know how a Government so intent on removing section 18C can turn around and try to force this on the population.

At least get your facts straight.  Come up with a single definition of what they believe metadata is, why you're proposing to do this, and how you plan to implement it.

I don't think even labor were as inept in a single day talking about a single policy proposal as the Libs have been.

Am i the only one getting the feeling they're trying to annoy as many people as possible with irrelevant policy when the economic fires are smouldering and threatening to fully flame up once the mining CAPEX cliff is reached sometime in the next 12-18 months.  If Abbott is not careful people are likely to start tuning out.

Surely when they're telling us there's a budget emergency that these side shows can be put to the side till the main game - getting the economy going and jobs growth back to above the population growth rate - is sorted out.

Should we start a poll on what what we think the next though bubble policy release will be??


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## banco (6 August 2014)

I'm opposed to it on the basis that it's giving up privacy for not much.  However I don't really buy the "smart terrorists will get around it easily line".  There seem to be a lot of dumb wanna be terrorists out there.  The recent trials in Australia featured a lot of phone tap evidence. If a wanna be terrorist had half a brain they'd know to assume their phone is tapped.

Funny to watch Abbott and co fumble around and screw up every time they try to explain the policy.  It seems like Abbott has never turned on a computer.  They need to roll out Turnbull.


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2014)

The man who fought for the right to be a biggot.

His performance on fox news was dismal.  He seriously has no idea about what he's actually proposing.  He sounded so like Sir Joh at times - "It's it's it's it's..."

He seemed to be arguing that the web site you visit isn't recorded, just the "web address"  He probably means the IP address, but then all that means is you have a number instead of url stored, but if you put that number into a web browser it will tell you the site, so I'm not really sure why he was trying to make out there's a difference between the two.

I have to admit I was quite surprised the fox reported really pinned him down on the issue.

[video=youtube_share;8N4vAdS4xT4]http://youtu.be/8N4vAdS4xT4[/video]


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## sydboy007 (7 August 2014)

for anyone using windows you too can play a mini version of surveillance state.

All you need to do is open a windows command prompt - older system called it the DOS prompt.

Easiest way to bring it up is to click start and type cmd in the search bar

once the command prompt is up type netstat -a

then enter

this will show you every active connection on your PC.

You can ignore any foreign addresses that starts with a 10 or 192.168 as these will be local connections not seen by the Govt.

If you want to see the foreign address converted to a web page then just type netstat -a -f

After being surprised how chatty your PC can be, just imagine trying to store all that info for every internet user in the country for 2 years.

The below is just from having 3 web pages currently open and probably some leftover connections from other pages I've closed down.

Most of it is due to advertising on the pages creating lots of links to download the adds from various sources.  Difficult to weed out all that useless info so it's likely all going to have to be stored.

  TCP    192.168.1.4:49272      a184-85-80-38.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.c
om:http  ESTABLISHED
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  TCP    192.168.1.4:59244      syd01s19-in-f22.1e100.net:https  ESTABLISHED
  TCP    192.168.1.4:60469      ec2-54-206-79-128.ap-southeast-2.compute.amazona
ws.com:https  ESTABLISHED
  TCP    192.168.1.4:61184      a125-56.204-122.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp  ESTABLISHED
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om:http  ESTABLISHED
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## SirRumpole (7 August 2014)

> Should we start a poll on what what we think the next though bubble policy release will be??




Selling the ABC would be a good one. They could float that idea and say it would bring in billions, and then it all would break down in the face of public opinion.


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## overhang (7 August 2014)

I'm personally sick of our privacy and civil liberties being curtailed for security.  I can understand it to some extent but I'm willing to chance that I would rather keep this privacy and run the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack due to the government not being able to capture a webpage from 24 months earlier.  What good is security without freedom, that's the sort of direction we're heading.  If these proposed laws were active in the US before 9/11 it wouldn't have even prevented it.
The ISPs have already come out and claimed this data retention is going to cost consumers upwards of $100 a year, for a government hell bent on reducing cost of living pressures this sure contradicts that.


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## Julia (7 August 2014)

Craton said:


> So too with privacy. No amount of govt. guarantee will allay my fears that the data will be safe and secure from misuse, abuse, profiling, hacking and so much more.



You don't think a huge amount of data is already being stored about you?  Your credit card statement provides a record of where you shop, the store loyalty card if you use one, stores details about everything you buy.  You'll have noticed that the big supermarkets are into much more than food, grog and petrol.  They're into insurance and can easily ascertain from where and how often you buy petrol how much more or less risk you represent from an insurer's pov, ie much less if you tootle round a small regional centre v thousands of kms on open roads.
According to an item on 7.30 last night, they're about to have their banking arm offer loans also.   
Then there's everything you put up on the internet, what you waffle on about on Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin et al.



McLovin said:


> Now we wait for the usual "but if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about" cheer squad.



Can you explain why that's not a pretty valid proposition?  I don't think I'm particularly stupid or unrealistic but I would find it delusional to think the government is going to be even remotely interested in anything I do or what websites I visit etc.


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## Julia (7 August 2014)

overhang said:


> I'm personally sick of our privacy and civil liberties being curtailed for security.  I can understand it to some extent but I'm willing to chance that I would rather keep this privacy and run the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack due to the government not being able to capture a webpage from 24 months earlier.



Well, I'm sure I wouldn't rather be killed by a suicide bomber who just decided to make the supreme sacrifice for his god right beside me than have my phone/internet use scooped up along with that of everyone else.  Much prefer to stay alive, thanks.  And just because no fanatic has yet committed such an atrocity in Australia does not mean there is not such an event being planned right now.

Our intelligence agencies have foiled several such schemes.


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## SirRumpole (7 August 2014)

Julia said:


> You don't think a huge amount of data is already being stored about you?  Your credit card statement provides a record of where you shop, the store loyalty card if you use one, stores details about everything you buy.




Of course there is a lot of information in the hands of corporate interests, but the trade of is convenience of not having to carry large amounts of cash, although if you don't want your buying habits on record you can withdraw cash and use that.

Does having this information justify any more being stored ? That argument never made any sense to me. Unless a stand is taken somewhere imagine where they will go next ? GPS on your car to see if you are speeding ? Hacking in to your web cams at home to see what you are doing (it can be done).

Just think of what hackers could do with the metadata. It could be sold off to people who have an axe to grind with certain individuals. To prospective employers. Insurance companies, finance companies etc. Innocent, but potentially embarrassing web searches could be used for blackmail. Then there is the cost that the ISP's will have to pay that gets passed on to us. 

I really don't think it's wise to assume that the government will always act in our interest, or that they or their agencies are smart or diligent enough to keep the information secure and to only use it for the purposes intended.




> Our intelligence agencies have foiled several such schemes.




Yes they have, but not by data retention schemes. By relatives or friends of the suspects informing on them. That is the best way to combat terrorism, have a good relationship between the community and the intelligence agencies.

I would suggest that the data retention proposals would have exactly the opposite effect.


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## McLovin (7 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Can you explain why that's not a pretty valid proposition?  I don't think I'm particularly stupid or unrealistic but I would find it delusional to think the government is going to be even remotely interested in anything I do or what websites I visit etc.




Because every time the government further encroaches on our privacy the same tired old line is used. 

Sniffer dogs at pubs, train stations, concerts -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter", 

CCTV cameras being installed everywhere -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

Police being given access to people's Opal card history without a warrant -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

Having your ID scanned and recorded in a database when you go into a pub/bar/club -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

So where does it end?


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## overhang (7 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Well, I'm sure I wouldn't rather be killed by a suicide bomber who just decided to make the supreme sacrifice for his god right beside me than have my phone/internet use scooped up along with that of everyone else.  Much prefer to stay alive, thanks.  And just because no fanatic has yet committed such an atrocity in Australia does not mean there is not such an event being planned right now.
> 
> Our intelligence agencies have foiled several such schemes.




That's why I said personally Julia, I'm sure there are many like you who are happy to have their privacy and liberties eroded to feel safe at night but their are others like me that won't.  
So our agencies have managed to foil several planned attacks which would indicate that the agencies already have enough information in their hands to prevent such attacks.


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## sydboy007 (7 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Can you explain why that's not a pretty valid proposition?  I don't think I'm particularly stupid or unrealistic but I would find it delusional to think the government is going to be even remotely interested in anything I do or what websites I visit etc.




The USA surveillance industry said they weren't interested in going through the mundane of people's personal lives.  It was shown that's what they were rummaging through most the time.

I also see this as the thin edge the edge for a constantly increasing surveillance web.  Considering how Muhamed Haneef was treated by members of the current Govt i have little faith the laws would be appropriately regulated against misuse.

I'm sure you have curtains like the rest of is, but if they're not there to hide doing something wrong why have them?  I'd say like most of us you have them for privacy.

The more of our privacy that's eroded the more likely ate to lose out democracy. All the info collected would allow the govt to weedle out activist networks, members of opposition groups.  I don't have enough faith in politicians to not be tempted to use the info for political gain.  They could use metadata to determine people at a protest March or who met an activist's house, all without a warrant.  That's close to see police state.

When the NSW police commissioner may have been intimately involved in funding corruption that's definitely not confidence inspiring!


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## Julia (7 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> Because every time the government further encroaches on our privacy the same tired old line is used.
> 
> Sniffer dogs at pubs, train stations, concerts -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter",
> 
> ...



Simply doesn't bother me, McLovin.  



sydboy007 said:


> The USA surveillance industry said they weren't interested in going through the mundane of people's personal lives.  It was shown that's what they were rummaging through most the time.



Right.   I can just envisage a score of intelligence agents spending their expensive time reading my completely boring emails and posts on stock forums.  If that's the best use they can make of their time, then that's what I'd be worried about, not any invasion of my privacy.



> I'm sure you have curtains like the rest of is, but if they're not there to hide doing something wrong why have them?  I'd say like most of us you have them for privacy.



Just shows you how wrong you can be when you make assumptions.  I only ever draw the curtains during the winter purely to keep the warmth in the room.


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## McLovin (7 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> The USA surveillance industry said they weren't interested in going through the mundane of people's personal lives.  It was shown that's what they were rummaging through most the time.




Surveillance in the US is out of control. The NSA has all but admitted it spies on members of the US Congress. That's the long slippery road that starts out with a bumbling AG explaining the need to be able to keep those baddy terrorists under surveillance.


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## Craton (7 August 2014)

Julia said:


> You don't think a huge amount of data is already being stored about you?  Your credit card statement provides a record of where you shop, the store loyalty card if you use one, stores details about everything you buy.  You'll have noticed that the big supermarkets are into much more than food, grog and petrol.  They're into insurance and can easily ascertain from where and how often you buy petrol how much more or less risk you represent from an insurer's pov, ie much less if you tootle round a small regional centre v thousands of kms on open roads.
> According to an item on 7.30 last night, they're about to have their banking arm offer loans also.
> Then there's everything you put up on the internet, what you waffle on about on Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin et al.
> 
> ...




Ah, and that's why I pay in cash as often as I can. I have refused to use loyalty cards for many years, many years. Call me dumb, call me paranoid, whatever and of course I know that there are huge databases where me details are kept.
For example, a couple of years ago as a service technician for a well know computer company I was advised that that company's email database had been compromised (hacked) and guess what? I started receiving huge amounts of SPAM via that stolen email account.

Being in the IT game I am acutely aware of data and its importance and of its sensitivity. I'm very distrustful of the hidden power (within the data) of FB and the like. As a citizen I'm also acutely aware of the erosion of my civil rights and liberties. This is just another erosion and I'm none too pleased.

FWIW. I ride a motorcycle and no, I'm not in any "gang" but am a member of several Long Distance riding forums and mailing lists. Recently on a Ride To Eat a service station attendant at Nullarbor roadhouse (yes Nullarbor Roadhouse, was there twice over the w/end) commented that we should of had a police escort. WT...? We didn't ride in a group like say, the Rebels but the perception was there. We ride bikes so we must by outlaws. Give me a break...

I'm a curious critter by nature and my online habits and phone calls will prove that. However, my researching bomb making and suicide bombers and like doesn't mean I'm threat either but will raise a flag for the "watchers". Thin edge of the wedge for sure...


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## Craton (7 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> Surveillance in the US is out of control. The NSA has all but admitted it spies on members of the US Congress. That's the long slippery road that starts out with a bumbling AG explaining the need to be able to keep those baddy terrorists under surveillance.




Yep.

The AG bumbling attempt at describing metadata, ha, what a joke. Totally agree, a very slippery slope that will have only one outcome if allowed to continue. Viva la revolution!


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## Knobby22 (8 August 2014)

Is George Brandis an idiot or what? Just an embarrassment as he proves he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Finally the Libs have rolled out Malcolm Turnball to take over and clear the air. 

(Of course if you only get you news sources from the Courier Mail then Brandis is a visionary.)


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## Calliope (8 August 2014)

We must be on the right track then.



> Muslims have reacted with resentment and fury to plans by the government to vastly expand the capture of telecommunications data, lower standards of proof for terrorist offences committed overseas, and force travellers to prove they had travelled to designated areas in the Middle East for a legitimate purpose.






> The plans to bolster terror legislation represent the biggest expansion of counter-terrorism legislation in more than a decade and are in response to a movement of Australian-born young men who have joined the jihadist cause in Syria and Iraq. There are believed to be about 150 Australians who have travelled overseas to take part in the foreign conflicts, and about 60 who are active fighters, including convicted terrorist Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, who was pictured holding the severed heads of Syrian government soldiers. Arrest warrants have been issued for the two men.
> 
> While Islamic community leaders have publicly condemned Israel for its campaign in Gaza, they have also been criticised, including by law enforcement officers, for being less vocal on the bloody conflicts in Syria and Iraq and as Australian extremists such as Sharrouf continue to call on young Australian citizens to join the jihadi cause.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-local-jihadists/story-e6frg8yo-1227017312859


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## Knobby22 (8 August 2014)

Yes, we are. I am really worried about it.

What are we doing about this though?

_Secret departmental operations have estimated that as many as nine in 10 skilled migrant visas may be fraudulent, while an internal inquiry into Afghan visa applicants in 2012 assessed that more than 90 per cent of cases contained "fraud of some type" and raised "people smuggling, identity fraud, suspected child trafficking and national security implications".

Also, a 2010 report reveals that immigration investigators had uncovered a Somali people-smuggling cell in Melbourne linked to terrorist suspect Hussein Hashi Farah, who "is believed to have links to the al-Qaeda offshoot al-Shabab" and who fled Kenyan counterterrorism officials using an Australian passport in 2010._


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...iles-reveal-20140806-3d8wj.html#ixzz39ku1Y7Uo

Seems we don't have enough immigration officials to even chase these up. We are becoming the pathetic country.


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## sydboy007 (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Right.   I can just envisage a score of intelligence agents spending their expensive time reading my completely boring emails and posts on stock forums.  If that's the best use they can make of their time, then that's what I'd be worried about, not any invasion of my privacy.




Possibly your lack of worry is due to you not understanding just how much information that bored or corrupt intelligence agent / police officer can be gleaning from you.  I can see the possibility of a major breach leading to massive racketeering rings based on personal information a person would not like in the public domain.  Think being held to ransom because you went to a sexual health clinic / watch pr0n / bought some marital aids or any of hundreds of other perfectly legal actions that some would like to remain private.  The Government is proposing to have massive data repositories of linked data to be minded.  Every week there's another story of millions of passwords compromised due to a successful hack.  How many hacks go undetected / reported?

Maybe it's not used inappropriately at the beginning, but we only have to look back to the reds under the beds mania in the USA and Australia, how Hoover used his intelligence info against opponents.  The potential to leak personal information to cruel an opponents chances of being elected could be just too tempting for a Government or someone with the access who's got a strong ideological bias.

I can see software being used to start profiling people based on where they go, who they are around, what web sites they go to.  Broad assumptions, as much based on ideology as reality, will make their way into the system and at some point in the future it will be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.  

It is already this way in the USA for Welfare recipients.  From the Divide by Matt taibbi

_The subject was the city's P100 program, under which anyone who applied for welfare could have his or her home searched preemptively by the state. Ostensibly, authorities were looking for evidence that the applicant had a secret job or a boyfriend who could pay bills, or was just generally lying about something in order to cheat the taxpayer out of that miserable few hundred bucks a month.

One Vietnamese woman, a refugee and a rape victim who had only recently come to America, applied for welfare in San Diego. An inspector came to her door, barged in, and began rifling through her belongings. At one point, he reached into her underwear drawer and began sifting around. Sneering, he used the tip of the pencil eraser to pull out a pair of sexy panties and looked at her accusingly. If she didn't have a boyfriend, what did she need these for?

That image, of a welfare inspector sneeringly holding up panties with a pencil end, expresses all sorts of things at once. The main thing is contempt. The implication is that someone broke enough to ask the taxpayer for a handout shouldn't have sex, much less sexy panties.

The other thing here is an idea that being that poor means you should naturally give up any ideas you might have about privacy or dignity. The welfare applicant is less of a person for being financially dependent (and a generally unwelcome immigrant from a poor country to boot), so she naturally has fewer rights._



Julia said:


> Just shows you how wrong you can be when you make assumptions.  I only ever draw the curtains during the winter purely to keep the warmth in the room.




I'm a shift worker and need a dark room to sleep during days.  Other's probably like curtains when they're getting dressed in their bedrooms.  I certainly have my blinds down when doing this, though note the odd neighbour doesn't seem to care / realise they're in plain view when doing the same.  I live in a free country so we have the rights to keep the curtains open or closed.

If the Government was proposing to store the data itself with no external access, limiting the threat of a breach, and access to this data was via a warrant, then I'd have a bit more confidence the system is less likely to be abused.  I'd also like to see minimum jail terms for wilful inappropriate access to the data, along with jail time to anyone who detects inappropriate use and doesn't report it or helps to cover it up.  All access should be logged against some file ref so all access can be linked back to a reason as to why the information was accessed and audits done to confirm the appropriateness of this access.  There should be mandatory reporting of any breaches to the public.  Possibly the privacy commissioner should act as auditor.

I doubt any of the above will happen.  The public will have no idea as to just how the information is being used / abused.


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

Further to what syd was saying, metadata without context is dangerous.

example, if one was engaged in a forum discussion on jihadists, one may want to access some of their crazy websites to use as evidence of their insanity in the discussion. If I accessed 5 jihadist web sites for the purpose of gaining evidence to use against them, some spook may get the idea that I was actually interested in undertaking jihad and could target me, my family or contacts based on that information.

That's just one example of how a lack of context could lead to not only targetting people with no interest in terrorism, but creates red herrings that wastes agency's time and money to investigate for no return.


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## Craton (8 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Possibly your lack of worry is due to you not understanding just how much information that bored or corrupt intelligence agent / police officer can be gleaning from you.  I can see the possibility of a major breach leading to massive racketeering rings based on personal information a person would not like in the public domain.  Think being held to ransom because you went to a sexual health clinic / watch pr0n / bought some marital aids or any of hundreds of other perfectly legal actions that some would like to remain private.  The Government is proposing to have massive data repositories of linked data to be minded.  Every week there's another story of millions of passwords compromised due to a successful hack.  How many hacks go undetected / reported?
> 
> Maybe it's not used inappropriately at the beginning, but we only have to look back to the reds under the beds mania in the USA and Australia, how Hoover used his intelligence info against opponents.  The potential to leak personal information to cruel an opponents chances of being elected could be just too tempting for a Government or someone with the access who's got a strong ideological bias.
> 
> ...




Exactly. To allow such broad sweeping Big Brother tactics is undemocratic and brandishes everyone guilty until proven innocent. All adding to further erosion of our rights.

I'd add that, and to use an Americanism, LEO's already have been given enough power thanks to 9/11 and that there already is enough data stored for LEO's to do their work with. Evidenced in the fact of the Australians illegally fighting in jihads and the two with arrest warrants. 

Of greater concern is the many and varied corruption outcomes one can envisage and the avalanche of hacking attempts that the honey pot of data will attract.

Sure, I've got nothing to hide but I also don't want everything about me put on display so that I'm an open book for all and sundry to use and abuse.


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## Craton (8 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Further to what syd was saying, metadata without context is dangerous.
> 
> example, if one was engaged in a forum discussion on jihadists, one may want to access some of their crazy websites to use as evidence of their insanity in the discussion. If I accessed 5 jihadist web sites for the purpose of gaining evidence to use against them, some spook may get the idea that I was actually interested in undertaking jihad and could target me, my family or contacts based on that information.
> 
> That's just one example of how a lack of context could lead to not only targetting people with no interest in terrorism, but creates red herrings that wastes agency's time and money to investigate for no return.




Again, exactly right. I said that in an earlier post. I'm curious, I like to enlighten my ignorance so my online researching of bomb making, suicide bombers and the like will raise a big red flag to the "watchers" and next thing I'm being raided under suspicion.

Even more likely because I've emailed my opposition to further erosion of my rights to my local MP, as I done regarding my concerns over this proposal. In fact, I'd encourage one and all to do the same.


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## Julia (8 August 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Is George Brandis an idiot or what? Just an embarrassment as he proves he doesn't know what he is talking about.
> Finally the Libs have rolled out Malcolm Turnball to take over and clear the air.



Here is what Mr Turnbull said on "AM" this morning.



> But I want to just clear a few things up - the security services, the police, ASIO and so forth, are not asking the Government to require telcos to record or retain information that they are not currently recording.
> 
> There has been some concern expressed that the Government was proposing that telcos should retain for two years a record of the websites that you visit when you're online, whether that's expressed in the form of their domain names or their IP addresses, in other words, that there would be a requirement to keep a two-year record of your web browsing or web surfing history.
> 
> ...




So I don't see what all the fuss is about.  Google already record every website you visit.  If you have succumbed to any store loyalty cards they record a lot more about you than seems to be being proposed here.  Your bank's software watches your credit card purchases so closely that it lets you know as soon as something outside your normal purchasing pattern occurs.

And syd, don't be so patronising.   Some of you are suggesting you'd be under suspicion because you visited a jihadist website.  That seems a bit silly to me.  Plenty of people will, under the current circumstances, have a look at this sort of thing.   I just don't believe ASIO are going to come and take you away from your nice, middle class retirement existence, Rumpole, for so doing.    If you insist on feeling threatened by this move by the government, why are you not similarly up in arms about the way Google records your every move?


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

> why are you not similarly up in arms about the way Google records your every move?




I don't like Google doing that either, but they don't have the power to throw me in gaol on false pretences, and if they misuse my data I can sue them.

Governments tend to make themselves immune from legal redress that can be used against corporations.


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## Ves (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> So I don't see what all the fuss is about.  Google already record every website you visit.
> 
> If you insist on feeling threatened by this move by the government, why are you not similarly up in arms about the way Google records your every move?



Firstly,  as an initial comment I don't think that it is 100% accurate that Goggle tracks 100% of your internet activities (or as you put it "your every move").  Would like you to clarify this if you know something that I don't.

And secondly, I think this is fundamentally different,  because there is an ability for the individual to "opt out."

The first way of doing this that you instruct Google to limit the information they track (or as you said re: loyalty cards you could avoid as much of Google's reach as possible by avoiding their products and affiliations.  Obviously not ideal as they have a big reach,  but it's a start. Secondly,  if you know what you are doing,  you have the ability to remain anonymous to companies like Google by using methods that are off the beaten path and not usually discussed on public forums / articles.

However,  when it comes to governments there is no ability to opt out.  It is law.  Yes,  a small proportion of individuals and companies will opt out using illegal terms (read:  the people who they most want to track) whilst the rest of us have to "opt in."

That's why people are probably pissed off.  That and the fact that the more information is stored on an ever-increasing amount of databases about you,  is open to security threats or abuse.  Layers upon layers of bureaucracy for little gain.


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## overhang (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Here is what Mr Turnbull said on "AM" this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're comparing the unavoidable mandatory retention of data by the Government to a company that also tracks your data that a consumer has the choice not to use, its apples and oranges.  

As far as what all the fuss is about, we've had the government use several different definitions to what meta data means in the space of a week so I'm a little hesitant to believe Turnbulls watered down version this morning.


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## sydboy007 (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Here is what Mr Turnbull said on "AM" this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because what Turnbull is saying is not factually correct.

* Internet providers don't track and RECORD long term every single IP connection you make.  What they do is track each session and the amount of data that flows through it.  Once that session goes down, the info is of no more value to the ISP.  All they store is the amount of data you have received and sent for billing purposes.  I'd say in storage terms the Govt is looking at storing a minimum 100 times the amount of data for say Ma and Pa doing very minimal basic email and browsing.  Once you get into the amount of storage required for an active teenagers mobile phone, it will likely turn into thousands of times the amount of data stored.  Go back to my post on the 7th at 12:19 AM and see how much data the Govt is asking to be stored as opposed to what is currently stored which is my internet username and IP for the time I was logged on plus the amount of data I used.  That amount of info was from ~40 mins of being online.

* Internet providers do keep long term logs of username mapped to an IP address.  A few times a year my company gets a court order for this kind of information.  All that information can be used is to confirm who was using the IP at a particular point in time ie it can confirm who sent an email or who accessed a web site.  A court order can also compel us to mirror a particular users internet traffic to the police or security agency - the cost of this is borne by the company.

Are you 100% sure that the information collected:

* Will never be hacked
* Will never be accessed for purposes other than a criminal / terrorist investigation?

If not, then what safe guards is the Government proposing to enact to get as close to 100% security for this massive personal pile of data?


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## Knobby22 (8 August 2014)

I hear the whole interview and it was clarified 

This is what Turnbull said.

_As for what the security agencies want, he says they are seeking the traditional telephone records that are currently kept, in some cases, for more than two years.

"That is the caller, the call party, I called you, time of call, duration of call, those records, they want them to be kept for two years," he said.

He says the agencies also want to keep the number assigned to your phone or your computer when you go online, which is known as an IP address, for two years.

"Some ISPs (internet service providers) keep a record for differing periods, but that is information that is already being kept, and ... it's an essential part of an ISP's business."_

So there is no requirement to see who you visit.


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## Calliope (8 August 2014)

All those Abbott haters who were in fear and trembling that the government would pry into the sordid details of their private lives can rest easy.  The mountain that they have been so busily erecting has crumbled into a molehill.



> “This is not some great mass surveillance exercise or mass invasion of privacy of every citizen in Australia,” Mr Irvine said at Parliament House, in a joint press conference with AFP Deputy Commissioner, Andrew Colvin.
> 
> “It is very, very carefully targeted against those people who give us good reason to suspect that they may be engaged in activities which are a threat to national security and the lives of Australians.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...a-retention-laws/story-fn59niix-1227017608824


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## McLovin (8 August 2014)

The chief spy says he won't be spying. Now I can rest easy.


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## Julia (8 August 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> I hear the whole interview and it was clarified
> 
> This is what Turnbull said.
> 
> ...



Quite.  But even then there are apparently people here who will not believe what Mr Turnbull has said.
There have also been interviews with the people running the intelligence agencies on "The World Today".
I didn't hear all of it but the program will be accessible via the ABC's website. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2014/s4063441.htm
The transcript is not up yet but anyone interested can listen to that part of the program.

Point taken about other organisations who collect data about us do not have the powers of government.
No one has yet, however, given me any reason to feel worried about any part of the government accessing any of my patterns of behaviour.  The ATO already knows all my financial information.  
I expect if you were suspected of something a warrant could be obtained to look at anything at all about any of us.  If I worry about anything it's some hacker accessing my banking and online broker details.

There seems to be 100% focus on invasion of personal privacy (which Mr Turnbull has said isn't going to happen) and none on the advice from intelligence agencies that their job will be made easier if this goes ahead.  I suppose that advice will also be dismissed as wrong and unnecessary.    I guess we will all see this situation differently.  I personally feel a hell of a lot more threatened by jihadist fanatics than I do about any part of the government showing an interest in my oh so unexciting life!

Meantime, I won't disrupt this thread by a diversion but will put up a new thread entitled "The Adult Guardian" as an example of how one's rights can really be seriously trampled on.


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

> and none on the advice from intelligence agencies that their job will be made easier if this goes ahead.




If that is the case, then perhaps the cost of this scheme should be paid out of the existing budgets of the intelligence agencies, rather than putting the load on the ISP's and then us.

In any case, I doubt if their jobs would be made all that much easier, as only a very few people would be caught, while the rest of us are all suspects.


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## sydboy007 (8 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> All those Abbott haters who were in fear and trembling that the government would pry into the sordid details of their private lives can rest easy.  The mountain that they have been so busily erecting has crumbled into a molehill.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...a-retention-laws/story-fn59niix-1227017608824




Well, now were up to about the 5th or 6th definition of what's being proposed.

Brandis stated < 48 hours ago that web addresses, technically website IP addresses, would be recorded.  Not totally your browsing history but very close to it.

So if people have been up in arms over the issue it's because the Government has turned it into one big confusing issue.  I know you've probably found Brandis and Abbott eminently clear on what is being proposed, but the rest of us have found their statements contradicting each other and even themselves each time they've fronted the media to _explain_ /sic what they are proposing.

This is just hte latest example of their though bubble policy on the run.


----------



## Julia (8 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If that is the case, then perhaps the cost of this scheme should be paid out of the existing budgets of the intelligence agencies, rather than putting the load on the ISP's and then us.



Perhaps it will.  If any portion of it filters down to you, it's hardly likely to be much, is it?  



> In any case, I doubt if their jobs would be made all that much easier, as only a very few people would be caught, while the rest of us are all suspects.



1.  I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier.  With all due respect to your expertise, of course.

2.  We are not all suspects.  That's just emotive language.  



sydboy007 said:


> So if people have been up in arms over the issue it's because the Government has turned it into one big confusing issue.



Agree that it has been woefully handled.  They should have brought Malcolm Turnbull, in conjunction with people like David Irvine, out in the first place.

George Brandis is becoming more of a liability to the government every day imo, along with the equally unrealistic Eric Abetz.


----------



## sydboy007 (8 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> The chief spy says he won't be spying. Now I can rest easy.




http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/12/nsa-blackmailing-overseers-washington.html

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009...o-blackmailed-by-the-bush-administration.html

----------------

last month the CIA admitted it spied on the senate committee responsible for overseeing it.  

4 months earlier the Director of the CIA claimed that it was not spying on the senate and went further to claim that investigators for the Senate Intelligence Committee had exceeded their lawful access to CIA records and that that constituted spying on the CIA.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

> 1. I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier. With all due respect to your expertise, of course.




Really Julia, the crime and intelligence agencies will take any powers they can get whether they need them or not. 

The more power they have the more likely those powers will be abused. Look at the police states that existed under the Askin and Bjelke-Petersen governments. They were very close to facism, and those powers were used mainly to silence political opposition to those governments. 

I don't trust governments and their agencies enough to believe that those types of situations can't happen again.


----------



## So_Cynical (8 August 2014)

For anyone who hasnt seen the bumbling of Brandis.
~


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2014)




----------



## IFocus (8 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> The chief spy says he won't be spying. Now I can rest easy.





You have a way with words McLovin that I envy.


----------



## banco (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> 1.  I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier.  With all due respect to your expertise, of course.




I think you are being a bit naive.  Government bureaucracies will always want to make their jobs easier and accrue power. A lot of things would make the spy agencies jobs easier doesn't mean we should do them.  Also the kinds of people who care about civil liberties generally don't join spy agencies.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

One expert's assessment of the metadata issue

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-08/pesce-when-it-comes-to-metadata-numbers-can-mislead/5658070


----------



## sydboy007 (8 August 2014)

I'm starting to think that what's happened was a serious case of over reach

Monday night and Tuesday

* Abbot Brandis thought bubble - ISPs to keep a full browsing history for interest access
* Launch it as a response to terrorist threat to get dumping of 18C off the TVs and newspapers.
* Massive back lash against the proposal

Wednesday

* Abbott and Brandis stunned by the lack of Iraqi style welcoming in the streets they had looked forward to.
* Clarifiobuscation by Abbot and Brandis as to will they wont they collect a full browsing history
* Metdata seems to metastasise like a cancer cell.
* Further backlash from the public, growing backlash from Liberal supporter base.
* Brandis funniest home interview

Thursday

* Further clarifobuscation by Abbott and Brandis, sometimes contradicting each other and what they said the previous couple of days
* Growing backlash from all sections of the public 
* Right wing think tanks voicing concerns
* Liberal party room is growing very rowdy on the topic
* Emergency party room meeting.  Abbot and Brandis acknowledge providing ASIO ASIS AFP wet dream has turned out to be a real vote loser with the public.
* Turnbull puts his hand up with a Baldric style cunning plan.  Let's just tell the punters all we want is for ISPs to keep keep a 2 year record for who used what IP address.  We'll spin it that this is what we always meant.  Yes yes, I hear you say but that's totally different from what Abbott and Brandis have said for 3 days, but Turnbull assures them his gentle demeanour and ability to deny any involvement with the previous policy announcements means he will sound believable.

Call my a cynic, but I think the above is pretty much how it panned out.

Explains why Brandis is in a wheelchair with bullet wounds to both feet and Abbott has lost a big toe.


----------



## Julia (8 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Really Julia, the crime and intelligence agencies will take any powers they can get whether they need them or not.
> 
> The more power they have the more likely those powers will be abused. Look at the police states that existed under the Askin and Bjelke-Petersen governments. They were very close to facism, and those powers were used mainly to silence political opposition to those governments.
> 
> I don't trust governments and their agencies enough to believe that those types of situations can't happen again.



Fine with me.  Believe what you will.  As will I.  You seem to be tossing paranoia into the wind with no actual justification.  I'd take a bit more notice of you if you put up some real current time examples of how what is being suggested will actually affect you or me personally.  No one has actually made this clear.

I repeat that I don't personally feel at any risk of being arrested for plotting against the nation, or anything else for that matter.


banco said:


> I think you are being a bit naive.



Of course you do.  You will think negatively about any opinion that doesn't accord with your own.  Again, as with Rumpole, fine with me.



> Government bureaucracies will always want to make their jobs easier and accrue power. A lot of things would make the spy agencies jobs easier doesn't mean we should do them.  Also the kinds of people who care about civil liberties generally don't join spy agencies.



Again, that's quite OK with me.  I'm all for them having all the power they need to protect Australia and am happy to take a chance on their skills in so doing.  Nothing you have ever posted here gives me any reason to believe you are any sort of expert in protecting Australia from terrorism, so I'd prefer to take the advice of people who supposedly do have some expertise in the area.  Their success in foiling some terrorist plans against Australia so far suggests they have a bit of a clue about what they're doing.

If you would like to outline to me just exactly what you believe I'm at risk of from the government holding data as outlined, you might like to put it up here.  I will wait with interest.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

> You seem to be tossing paranoia into the wind with no actual justification. I'd take a bit more notice of you if you put up some real current time examples of how what is being suggested will actually affect you or me personally. No one has actually made this clear.




It's a bit difficult to provide examples of abuse of a system that has not been implemented yet, but the following details what corrupt police are willing to do with information already existing in supposedly confidential databases:-



> Hundreds of police members caught abusing confidential information on operational intelligence database
> 
> 
> HUNDREDS of police members have been caught abusing confidential information stored on the operational intelligence database.
> ...




I would also note that the adult guardian case you quoted does not affect you or me personally, yet you are upset by it, justifiably. If we have to wait until we are personally affected by something that the government does, then it's too late. They have the power and it's been used against us.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

Perhaps we should take a lot more notice of  retired General Peter Leahy with what we may face in the not so distant future.

With the influx of Muslims between 2008 and 2013, thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians, we now have ghettos in Western Sydney growing at an alarming rate particularly in Tony Burke's seat of Watson where 20% of the population in that electorate are Muslims.....Burke will protect these Muslims down to the last and the reason why he does not not want to agree to Abbotts counter terrorism measures is the for fear of losing votes.

Well Mr Burke, wake up to yourself before it comes back to bite you on the bum.

We need to take action now before these radicals grow in numbers.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...head-peter-leahy/story-e6frg8yo-1227018630297

AUSTRALIA needs to prepare for an increasingly savage, 100-year war against radical Islam that will be fought on home soil as well as foreign lands, the former head of the army, Peter Leahy, has warned.

Professor Leahy, a leading defence and strategic analyst, told The Weekend Australian the country was ill-prepared for the high cost of fighting a war that would be paid in “blood and treasure” and would require pre-emptive as well as reactive action.

“Australia is involved in the early stages of a war which is likely to last for the rest of the century,” he said. “We must be ready to protect ourselves and, where necessary, act pre-emptively to neutralise the evident threat. Get ready for a long war.”

Senior intelligence officials have moved to shore up public support for the Abbott government’s tough new security laws, including enhanced data-retention capabilities enabling agencies to track suspect computer usage.

Australian Security Intelligence Organisation director-general David Irvine said the proposed data laws, which require phone and internet companies to retain records for two years, were “absolutely crucial” to counter the jihadist terror threat.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

And here is more evidence of what we are about to face with these Muslim radicals.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...dads-love-failed/story-fn59niix-1227018613923

MAMDOUH Elomar is a man whose “heart has been shattered into a thousand pieces”. The successful Sydney businessman has spent years trying to steer his sons, Mohamed, 30, and Ahmed, 31, away from radical Islam.

He failed.

Ahmed is in jail, having belted a police officer over the head with a pole at a protest in 2012, while *Mohamed is in Syria fighting for the Islamic State. He has been in photographs holding the severed heads of captured Syrian soldiers, taken by his friend Khaled Sharrouf — both are now wanted terrorists and war criminals.

Can the Australian Federal Police succeed where the love of a father has failed?

In the coming months, the AFP is planning to assemble a new unit to manage the threat posed by *returning foreign fighters.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> With the influx of Muslims between 2008 and 2013, thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians, we now have ghettos in Western Sydney growing at an alarming rate particularly in Tony Burke's seat of Watson where 20% of the population in that electorate are Muslims.....Burke will protect these Muslims down to the last and the reason why he does not not want to agree to Abbotts counter terrorism measures is the for fear of losing votes.




Considering the high levels of immigration under how - he has said he was a high immigration PM - I'd find it hard to believe that there's much of a spike in immigrants of the Islamic religion.

If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be quite interested to see it.

For 2012-13 the top 9 countries for migrants were.

Considering malaysia is the only Isalmic dominated country, seems we're not being flooded.  I'd also note I meet a lot of Malays in their own country and here and I'd say theat most of them would make a welcome addition to Australia. 

Country of birth	Arrivals	% Variation
New Zealand	27 015	-10.3
India	                18 395	27.8
China                 18 041	3.3
United Kingdom	11 720	-29.8
Philippines	        6704	        -3.6
South Africa	4585	        -27.3
Malaysia	         3762	        -3.2
Vietnam	         3709	        -4.8
Sri Lanka	         3670	        -15.6


----------



## Calliope (9 August 2014)

Syd's list obviously excludes illegals.



> THE arrival of more than 40,000 boat people in Australia's north since Labor unwound John Howard's border protection policies in late 2008 represents an alarming  threat to Australia's security as well as its social cohesion.
> 
> This boat people phenomenon is essentially a determined Muslim immigration, being part of the stealth jihad, with the vast majority of arrivals being from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.



http://australian-news.net/articles/view.php?id=130


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

> This boat people phenomenon is essentially a determined Muslim immigration, being part of the stealth jihad, with the vast majority of arrivals being from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.




While some jihadists may arrive by boat, I think the majority probably just come on family reunion visas or other legal migration programs, and that is where we need to focus our attention.

People coming here legally from Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, Syria, Somalia are the main threat imo because it's relatively easy to get here due to the lax mainstream migration programs which the current government shows no signs of toughening up.

I think that if I lived under the thumb of the Taliban in Afghanistan, I would want to get out ASAP, and I think that is what drives most boat refugees.


----------



## Julia (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a bit difficult to provide examples of abuse of a system that has not been implemented yet, but the following details what corrupt police are willing to do with information already existing in supposedly confidential databases:-



Aren't we already well and truly aware of the level of corruption in Victoria police?
One would assume the culprits have been appropriately dealt with.  I don't have much sympathy for the thugs in the outlaw motor cycle gangs, and don't see any relationship between this incident and my need to feel fearful if my ISP holds data as the government wishes them to do.



> I would also note that the adult guardian case you quoted does not affect you or me personally



I don't expect Mary ever thought she would be affected either.  Neither do you have any right to assume anything about anyone's personal circumstances.

,







> yet you are upset by it, justifiably. If we have to wait until we are personally affected by something that the government does, then it's too late. They have the power and it's been used against us.



I don't know how many times I have made clear that I do not feel threatened by what the government wants to do here, just as I have made it clear I respect your right to believe your personal freedom is at stake, even though you can't give me an example of what you believe could happen to me.
Please stop telling me what I should think, believe or feel, Rumpole.   I'm quite capable of deciding for myself, thanks.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Aren't we already well and truly aware of the level of corruption in Victoria police?
> One would assume the culprits have been appropriately dealt with.  I don't have much sympathy for the thugs in the outlaw motor cycle gangs, and don't see any relationship between this incident and my need to feel fearful if my ISP holds data as the government wishes them to do.
> 
> 
> ...




OK, so someone who did not feel threatened by a quasi government agency she never knew existed suddenly found herself threatened by one. That's the point, you never feel threatened until something happens to you or someone you know.

As to how your information could be used against you (maybe not you personally but anyone in the general population, because these proposals are not just about you), the possibilities are endless.

 Man wants to spy on his wife, has a friend in the police force who gets details of who the wife has been emailing, maybe that she has been on "men for hire" web sites, etc etc. 

Political parties want dirt on their opponents, again through corrupt police get access to details of web and email metadata, employers want details on their employees social media activities- are the employees bitching about the boss after hours ?, a policeman takes a liking to a young girl he met and gets access to her likes, dislikes, friends, boyfriends (potential competition who he proceeds to frighten off)... 

Just because some of us don't have any imagination, doesn't mean the crooks don't. The fact that warrants are not required to access this data is an open gate for any corrupt cop to dive in and get what they want.



> Please stop telling me what I should think, believe or feel, Rumpole. I'm quite capable of deciding for myself, thanks.




Not trying to do that at all. If you want to live in a nice sheltered world unaware of the dangers, go right ahead, but you are not the only person in this country and a lot of us don't like being spied on for no good reason.

I heard a report on TV today where the head of ASIO said that terrorist plots have been foiled by access to metadata. This indicates that they already have enough powers to do their job and they don't need any more.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so someone who did not feel threatened by a quasi government agency she never knew existed suddenly found herself threatened by one. That's the point, you never feel threatened until something happens to you or someone you know.
> 
> As to how your information could be used against you (maybe not you personally but anyone in the general population, because these proposals are not just about you), the possibilities are endless.
> 
> ...




If you keep your nose clean and don't mess up, you don't have to worry about ASIO of the AFP.


----------



## Calliope (9 August 2014)

Poor ole Rumpy;

What'cha gonna do when they come for you?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> If you keep your nose clean and don't mess up, you don't have to worry about ASIO of the AFP.




How naively trusting of you. A lot of people don't break the law but have things they would rather not be made public. 

Also it's not only the law we have to worry about, presumably employees of the ISP would have access to the data and can we guarantee all of them are incorruptible ?


----------



## Craton (9 August 2014)

As Geordie right points out here: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...want-my-metadata-george-brandis-get-a-warrant

My point exactly, if the security agencies need to act further, get a warrant not give them free, unfetted rein.



> Geordie Guy
> 
> theguardian.com, Wednesday 6 August 2014 12.48 AEST
> 
> ...




Hear, hear!


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Craton said:


> As Geordie right points out here: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...want-my-metadata-george-brandis-get-a-warrant
> 
> My point exactly, if the security agencies need to act further, get a warrant not give them free, unfetted rein.
> 
> ...




 +1  

;


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

> I don't have much sympathy for the thugs in the outlaw motor cycle gangs,




Neither do I , but some of the information was stolen by corrupt cops working FOR the bikie gangs and contained details of informers etc.

Just shows the lengths to which some of our agencies have been infiltrated by crims. We don't know whether the AFP and ASIO have been similarly affected.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> Perhaps we should take a lot more notice of  retired General Peter Leahy with what we may face in the not so distant future.
> 
> With the influx of Muslims between 2008 and 2013, thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians, we now have ghettos in Western Sydney growing at an alarming rate particularly in Tony Burke's seat of Watson where 20% of the population in that electorate are Muslims.....Burke will protect these Muslims down to the last and the reason why he does not not want to agree to Abbotts counter terrorism measures is the for fear of losing votes.
> 
> ...




Labor is softer on travelers in Jihadist  areas because they fear the loss of votes......Labor is not concerned about the security of Australia and the threat of terrorists.......only about their self preservation.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ihadist_areas_than_it_was_on_bosses_back_hom/


----------



## DB008 (9 August 2014)

Just use a VPN.



> *Five Best VPN Service Providers*
> 
> A VPN (virtual private network) is a great tool to protect your privacy and security while you use the internet, as well as a nifty means of working around geo-blocking. Whether you’re at home or using public Wi-Fi while travelling, the best combine great pricing with security features and privacy guarantees that make them worth your trust. This week, we’re looking at five of the best VPN providers, based on your nominations.
> 
> ...





Still paranoid, use a VPN not located in Australia.




> *WHICH VPN SERVICES TAKE YOUR ANONYMITY SERIOUSLY? 2014 EDITION*
> 
> Millions of people use a VPN service to protect their privacy, but not all VPNs are as anonymous as one might hope. In fact, some VPN services log users' IP-addresses for weeks. To find out how secure VPNs really are TorrentFreak asked the leading providers about their logging policies, and more.
> 
> ...


----------



## sydboy007 (9 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Just use a VPN.
> 
> Still paranoid, use a VPN not located in Australia.




No need to be paranoid.  Anyone accessing the internet outside their home should have a VPN provider.  It's roughly 40 USD a year for the peace of mind it brings.  Free public wifi can as often be a way to tempt people to allow someone to monitor all their traffic in the hopes of getting some personal information or even access onto your device if it's securty is not up to scratch - even then it might still get infected.

As I said earlier, the Government is looking to bring in legislation to force you to hand over VPN encryption keys.  Hopefully this will get more air time if they become serious about it.


----------



## Julia (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so someone who did not feel threatened by a quasi government agency she never knew existed suddenly found herself threatened by one.



She could have precluded such a situation simply by previously recognising the need to appoint  someone with Enduring Power of Attorney.

She could further have avoided being slugged with a potent antipsychotic drug by completing an Advance Health Directive, a legally binding document, making clear that she refused any such drug, giving the person with EPOA a legal basis on which to advocate on  her behalf.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Julia said:


> She could have precluded such a situation simply by previously recognising the need to appoint  someone with Enduring Power of Attorney.
> 
> She could further have avoided being slugged with a potent antipsychotic drug by completing an Advance Health Directive, a legally binding document, making clear that she refused any such drug, giving the person with EPOA a legal basis on which to advocate on  her behalf.




Both of these suggestions are good to know, and would slip by a lot of people. 

Googling for "Advance Health Directive" seems to indicate that they vary from State to State. I suppose the solicitor who makes out a EPOA would know the details.


----------



## Craton (10 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Just use a VPN.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The use of TOR has been mentioned elsewhere: https://www.torproject.org but a caveat, even TOR hasn't been excempt from cyber attack. Any guess as to whom and why?
Hint, Naughty Spy Agencies...

From here: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-security-advisory-relay-early-traffic-confirmation-attack

In part reads; 



> SUMMARY:
> 
> On July 4 2014 we found a group of relays that we assume were trying to deanonymize users. They appear to have been targeting people who operate or access Tor hidden services. The attack involved modifying Tor protocol headers to do traffic confirmation attacks.
> 
> The attacking relays joined the network on January 30 2014, and we removed them from the network on July 4. While we don't know when they started doing the attack, users who operated or accessed hidden services from early February through July 4 should assume they were affected.




Privacy and corruption aside, data is power and power is money. Anyone know what the price of a legit email address is on the black market or legit credit card details including number, expiry, name and security code?

A vast array of personal details already attracts a price within this black market. Why even the s/ware designed to steal your details, Trojans, key loggers for example, can be bought too. The honey pot of data that our security agencies want is only going to attract the best hackers coz there is money, and lots of it to be had.

Think we'll be safe? Am I taking this too far?
Perhaps but I've lived too long to ignore the foibles and failings of human nature especially when it comes to fear and greed.


----------



## Julia (10 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Both of these suggestions are good to know, and would slip by a lot of people.
> 
> Googling for "Advance Health Directive" seems to indicate that they vary from State to State. I suppose the solicitor who makes out a EPOA would know the details.



The Advance Health Directive is known as a Living Will in some States, probably different names in most states.
AHD is the Qld version.
You do not need a solicitor.  Go to the State Justice Department website.  At least in Qld and presumably it will be similar elsewhere, there will be a choice which will include both Enduring Power of Attorney and AHD or its equivalent.  Simply download the forms and complete.  Make sure you use the Enduring POA, not the basic POA form which not appropriate.  The AHD needs to be completed in conjunction with your doctor who attests to your capacity to make the decisions therein.  Both documents need to be properly witnessed by a JP, solicitor or equivalent.
Imo everyone should have these documents.

I believe, also at least in Qld, you can buy the forms from a newsagent.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 August 2014)

Julia said:


> The Advance Health Directive is known as a Living Will in some States, probably different names in most states.
> AHD is the Qld version.
> You do not need a solicitor.  Go to the State Justice Department website.  At least in Qld and presumably it will be similar elsewhere, there will be a choice which will include both Enduring Power of Attorney and AHD or its equivalent.  Simply download the forms and complete.  Make sure you use the Enduring POA, not the basic POA form which not appropriate.  The AHD needs to be completed in conjunction with your doctor who attests to your capacity to make the decisions therein.  Both documents need to be properly witnessed by a JP, solicitor or equivalent.
> Imo everyone should have these documents.
> ...




Good advice Julia, thank you.


----------



## Craton (10 August 2014)

Julia said:


> The Advance Health Directive is known as a Living Will in some States, probably different names in most states.
> AHD is the Qld version.
> You do not need a solicitor.  Go to the State Justice Department website.  At least in Qld and presumably it will be similar elsewhere, there will be a choice which will include both Enduring Power of Attorney and AHD or its equivalent.  Simply download the forms and complete.  Make sure you use the Enduring POA, not the basic POA form which not appropriate.  The AHD needs to be completed in conjunction with your doctor who attests to your capacity to make the decisions therein.  Both documents need to be properly witnessed by a JP, solicitor or equivalent.
> *Imo everyone should have these documents*.
> ...




My bolds and absolutely agree 100% Julia.
I too highly recommend having one in place as it takes a lot of pressure off the family (and/or friends) should the worst occur. 

In NSW its called Enduring Guardianship, http://www.publicguardian.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/publicguardian/pg_planning/pg_enduring.html

I was Enduring Guardian for my dearly departed and for my Dad, still am for my Mom. 

Amongst other directives, should I become brain dead I don't want to be kept on life support so, the kids, jointly, are my Enduring Guardians. Set up via our lawyers.


----------



## Calliope (11 August 2014)

If Abbott expects the "moderate" Australian Muslims to protest against this shocking behaviour in Syria and Iraq then he is away with the fairies. Callous brutality and disregard for human life is inbred in them.

"That's my boy'' says proud dad.



> The young son of an Australian jihadist has been photographed gripping the severed head of a slain Syrian soldier.
> Khaled Sharrouf's son, believed to be aged seven, used both hands to hoist the decapitated head up as he posed for a chilling photo.
> His proud father, one of Australia's most-wanted terrorists and a suspected war criminal, posted the photo to Twitter on August 8 with the caption: 'Thats my boy!'.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...itated-head-Syrian-solider.html#ixzz3A2F8RDfa 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Craton (11 August 2014)

That is so sad and very disturbing to see children brain washed like that Calliope. As you say, inbred into them. No amount of data storing will break that cycle.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> If Abbott expects the "moderate" Australian Muslims to protest against this shocking behaviour in Syria and Iraq then he is away with the fairies. Callous brutality and disregard for human life is inbred in them.
> 
> "That's my boy'' says proud dad.




https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...Ld8AWa1IKQDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1203&bih=749

Plenty of fair skinned blue eyed kids in there.

In no way justifying what's going on, but just highlighting that this issue is fairly wide spread.

Just have to look at the ideas in some of the militias in the USA - they'd be more upset about it being about being Muslims than about the children per se.


----------



## Calliope (11 August 2014)

I didn't observe any of the fair skinned blue eyed kids "highlighted" by syd, holding up the heads of their murderous father's beheaded victims. But I suppose another diligent Google search would turn some up.


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 August 2014)

The powerful feeling of holding a gun. The potential to kill, maim or destroy something or some organism from a perceived safe distance.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...Ld8AWa1IKQDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1203&bih=749
> 
> Plenty of fair skinned blue eyed kids in there.
> 
> ...



Man's inhumanity to man such as the images we are now seeing has occurred through many cultures throughout civilised history and that we can't change.

As for the present and future, it has no place and should simply be condemned, not compared.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> Man's inhumanity to man such as the images we are now seeing has occurred through many cultures throughout civilised history and that we can't change.
> 
> As for the present and future, it has no place and should simply be condemned, not compared.




When comments are made in a biased way i think it's fair to highlight that it's a common issue that transcends race / religion / age.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> I didn't observe any of the fair skinned blue eyed kids "highlighted" by syd, holding up the heads of their murderous father's beheaded victims. But I suppose another diligent Google search would turn some up.




I was responding to the specific images within your post.


----------



## Calliope (11 August 2014)

This thread is about countering terrorism in Australia and the only threat at present comes from Islam. Syd's reactive response, to dredge up pictures of fair haired children holding guns, shows his biases not mine. Anyone who ignores the ISIS activity in Iraq or tries to drag in side issues purporting to show that "it's a common issue that transcends race / religion / age" is very naive.


----------



## ghotib (11 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> This thread is about countering terrorism in Australia and the only threat at present comes from Islam. Syd's reactive response, to dredge up pictures of fair haired children holding guns, shows his biases not mine. Anyone who ignores the ISIS activity in Iraq or tries to drag in side issues purporting to show that "it's a common issue that transcends race / religion / age" is very naive.



From my perspective it's naive to ignore the fact that kids have been carefully taught to hate and to kill for generations in many cultures. The first thing I thought of when I read about that tweeted picture (I didn't see the picture till later) was Northern Ireland. 

I think it's also naive, and more importantly it's counter-productive, to forget that most of the Muslims in Australia are Australians by naturalisation (i.e. by choice) or by birth. You don't counter a threat by forcing more people into the group that's threatening you.


----------



## ghotib (11 August 2014)

More on metadata. It's not just that it's intrusive and expensive. It's that it won't work...  according to the Minister for Communications. 

http://www.zdnet.com/au/turnbull-admits-limitations-of-data-retention-proposal-7000032480/

If anyone is naive, surely it's a
 PM who consistently starts consultations AFTER making announcements.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 August 2014)

ghotib said:


> More on metadata. It's not just that it's intrusive and expensive. It's that it won't work...  according to the Minister for Communications.
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/au/turnbull-admits-limitations-of-data-retention-proposal-7000032480/
> 
> ...




Tony Abbott seems to be getting more like Kevin Rudd. Making all these "captain's decisions" that blow up in his face.

"Adults in charge" indeed. I think not.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 August 2014)

ghotib said:


> From my perspective it's naive to ignore the fact that kids have been carefully taught to hate and to kill for generations in many cultures. The first thing I thought of when I read about that tweeted picture (I didn't see the picture till later) was Northern Ireland.
> 
> I think it's also naive, and more importantly it's counter-productive, to forget that most of the Muslims in Australia are Australians by naturalisation (i.e. by choice) or by birth. You don't counter a threat by forcing more people into the group that's threatening you.




Very true.  hate begets hate most of the time.

The surest way to make someone into an enemy is to treat them as one without cause.


----------



## Calliope (11 August 2014)

ghotib said:


> I think it's also naive, and more importantly it's counter-productive, to forget that most of the Muslims in Australia are Australians by naturalisation (i.e. by choice) or by birth.  You don't counter a threat by forcing more people into the group that's threatening you..




You are right ghotib. Most of the 200 Australians fighting for the jihadist terrorists in  Syria and Iraq are Aussie born and bred. They are are obviously representative of large Muslim communities in Sydney and elsewhere. It certainly would be very naive of us to cricicise the activities of their beloved children and grandchidren. We mustn't upset them or as you say they will join the jihadists.

We should be prepared to give their boys a rousing hero's welcome when they return. Perhaps a ticker tape parade in Lakemba.



> Australia has 'by far largest number' of Western fighters in Syria
> 
> An expert from Melbourne University's School of International Relations says Australians make up "by far the largest" contingent of Western recruits to Syrian armed groups.
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/morrison-watching-australians-fighting-in-syria/5050118


----------



## sydboy007 (11 August 2014)

ghotib said:


> More on metadata. It's not just that it's intrusive and expensive. It's that it won't work...  according to the Minister for Communications.
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/au/turnbull-admits-limitations-of-data-retention-proposal-7000032480/
> 
> ...




Fortunately it now sounds, if we can take Malcolm at his word, that the Government just wants to force all ISPs and phone companies to keep their call logs and IP radius logs for a minimum 2 years.

From the sounds of it, some of the new MVNOs were only keeping their call logs for a relatively short period so as to save on storage costs.

My understanding from talking to a few of the senior guys at work who deal with some of the compliance stuff is that there was already a semi legal requirement to keep the IP radius logs for internet users.

I'm still left scratching my head though as to how we went from keep a mini web browsing history to IP radius logs within a few days.  The 2 are so far apart it beggars belief that it was just confusion over terminology.


----------



## banco (11 August 2014)

Turnbull must cringe when other Government Ministers talk about tech stuff.


----------



## Julia (11 August 2014)

ghotib said:


> I think it's also naive, and more importantly it's counter-productive, to forget that most of the Muslims in Australia are Australians by naturalisation (i.e. by choice) or by birth.



Are they?  I don't really see what difference that makes when we have examples such as has been splashed all over the media today of such an Australian Muslim praising his 7 year old child for holding up the severed head of someone who failed to adhere to the Muslim faith.

Could you perhaps offer some examples of the moderate Muslim community in Australia making clear their disgust and revulsion at this jihadist activity?  I've not seen or heard any anywhere.  That does not mean it doesn't exist, and I'd be pleased if you could offer some reassurance on this point.


----------



## Calliope (12 August 2014)

One of the most revolting and disgusting aspects of the degrading of these children is that it couldn't have happened without the connivance of Sharrouf's Anglo-Australian wife, Tara Nettleton, who smuggled their five children (two girls and three boys)  to Syria to join their father.



> It is understood the children left Australia about a month after their father fled the country in December, slipping illegally out of Sydney Airport on his brother’s passport.
> 
> Ms Nettleton is understood to have flown the children to Malaysia in the company of her mother, Karen Nettleton. The family stayed with a relative of Sharrouf — believed to be his sister — in Kuala Lumpur. The family all travelled on return tickets, a ruse, it would seem, designed to ease any suspicion among authorities that Ms Nettleton was planning on taking the family to Syria.
> 
> ...



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=17300093


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you perhaps offer some examples of the moderate Muslim community in Australia making clear their disgust and revulsion at this jihadist activity?  I've not seen or heard any anywhere.  That does not mean it doesn't exist, and I'd be pleased if you could offer some reassurance on this point.




I haven't seen any either. Some muftis did appear after the Cronulla riots, but they seem very reluctant to condemn what is happening in Syria or Iraq.

Makes one wonder where their loyalties lie. 

Islam a religion of peace ? Hmmm.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you perhaps offer some examples of the moderate Muslim community in Australia making clear their disgust and revulsion at this jihadist activity?  I've not seen or heard any anywhere.  That does not mean it doesn't exist, and I'd be pleased if you could offer some reassurance on this point.




On the ABC news last night a Muslim leader was quite obvious with his hatred saying that guy "should not call himself  a muslim and saying he is evil and a bad father." The guy was really angry.


----------



## overhang (12 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Are they?  I don't really see what difference that makes when we have examples such as has been splashed all over the media today of such an Australian Muslim praising his 7 year old child for holding up the severed head of someone who failed to adhere to the Muslim faith.
> 
> Could you perhaps offer some examples of the moderate Muslim community in Australia making clear their disgust and revulsion at this jihadist activity?  I've not seen or heard any anywhere.  That does not mean it doesn't exist, and I'd be pleased if you could offer some reassurance on this point.




Well from this article.


> Lebanese Muslim Association president Samier Dandan says he is very disturbed by the image, and has distanced the Australian Muslim community from it.
> 
> "I stand very far from that concept - this is an act of a lunatic," he said.
> 
> "Even if you are saying to me he made his son lift or carry and take a picture with a decapitated head this is something reflective of something we can all agree - this is an act of a lunatic."




I have no idea if he represents the greater view of the Muslim community but I'm not even sure if there is a general consensus amongst Muslims, hence the division in Iraq.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-11/photo-of-boy-holding-severed-head-the-act-of-a-lunatic/5662202


----------



## McLovin (12 August 2014)

overhang said:


> Well from this article.




And this one...



> Community leader Jamal Rifi said the photos could only be taken "by a very sick person".
> 
> "His actions are deplorable," he said. "There's a lot of anger within the community because he's doing much more damage to Islam when he's pretending to be defending Islam."




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...vered-head-20140811-102t0t.html#ixzz3A8RQKKPI


----------



## Julia (12 August 2014)

Good to read at least some revulsion by Muslims.
Apparently this evening "Insight" will be about the radicalisation of Australian born muslims.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> And this one...
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...vered-head-20140811-102t0t.html#ixzz3A8RQKKPI




The leaders denounced the photograph but did not say anything about the wider subject of jihad.

Syria not a jihad anyway as it's a war between Muslim sects. What do the Imams say about that ?


----------



## McLovin (12 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The leaders denounced the photograph but did not say anything about the wider subject of jihad.




Is this enough for you?



> “I’m going to use my interactions with the local community during my election campaign to talk about radicalisation and inform mums and dads about the signs and behavioural changes in young people that parents need to be aware of,” Dr Rifi said.
> 
> He said he had been “fearful” that his own children could fall under the influence of radical notions of Islam, such as those promoted by Australian terrorists Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, but talking about the issue had been the key. “In my dealings with them I always express my views that the actions of people like Elomar and Sharrouf are not the actions of Muslims and I encourage them to have discussions about these issues to make sure they are less susceptible to extremist ideologies,” he said.
> 
> ...




http://m.theaustralian.com.au/natio...021107822?nk=b2666cd60ee4386c11e1f88f768f8e80

There's some fine guilt by association going on in this thread.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> Is this enough for you?
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.theaustralian.com.au/natio...021107822?nk=b2666cd60ee4386c11e1f88f768f8e80




Good to hear, should be more of it.


----------



## craft (12 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> There's some fine guilt by association going on in this thread.



 Absolutely.

I just hope that decent Muslims are farsighted enough not to think we are all guilty of  "accusation by association"

I don't want be involved in these threads - But time has come to stand up and say these threads/policies/whatever that imply guilt by association disgust me.

Treat people on their merits - not on your prejudices and the radicals will have so much more trouble recruiting.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

> I just hope that decent Muslims are farsighted enough not to think we are all guilty of "accusation by association"




No rational person would assert that all Muslims are responsible for the sins of a few. The fact is that people are being radicalised here. Who is doing this ? It must be someone with some authority in the Islamic community who has an extremist interpretation of the Koran. These people need to be pointed out and isolated for the sake of the moderate Muslims and the community.


----------



## Ves (12 August 2014)

craft said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I just hope that decent Muslims are farsighted enough not to think we are all guilty of  "accusation by association"
> 
> ...



Agree 100%

I find it hard to swallow that people say things like "Well,  they haven't come out and said this or that" -  when really it is a case of "They probably have,   you're just too lazy and fixed in your views to bother looking & listening for it."


----------



## Calliope (14 August 2014)

No, we mustn't infringe on the privacy or rights or priveleges of any minority group, unless we might upset upset them. We are even carrying it to the ridiculous lengths of continuing to pay welfare and disability payments to those murderous Australian Islamic thugs who are now fighting fof the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, obviously with the support of the Australian Islamic community.

And what sort of disability would a guy like Khaled Sharrouf have. He can chop of heads and hold them aloft. and yet he as receiving $383 a week disability allowance before he pissed off using his brother's passport.



> Mr Abbott’s office had previously vowed to investigate options to cease the international portability of welfare payments for people suspected by security agencies of joining militant or terrorist ranks.
> 
> An estimated 150 Australians have travelled to the Iraqi and Syrian war zones, about 60 of whom are thought to be on the front line.
> 
> ...




If other Western countries are as gutless as we are, we will be a pushover for spread of the Islamic State. And yet the majority pf posters think appeasement is the best option so that they will learn to love us.


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2014)

Ves said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> I find it hard to swallow that people say things like "Well,  they haven't come out and said this or that" -  when really it is a case of "They probably have,   you're just too lazy and fixed in your views to bother looking & listening for it."




It's obvious who the lazy one is. If you could get off your couch, perhaps you could dig up some examples of where the Muslim leadership here has condemned their rmembers travelling to Syria and Iraq to participate in The Islamic State terrorist activities and genocide. 

Sure, they have been upset by The Australian graphically exposing these activities, but not by the activities themselves, even though they all knew that these graphic images were previously widely circulated in their community.

This is a typical reaction;



> NSW Islamic Council head Khaled Sukkarieh concurred, describing the latest Sharrouf images as “beyond belief”. “To see photos of a seven-year-old being subjected to this kind of rubbish, we condemn it all in the name of Islam,” Mr Sukkarieh said.


----------



## overhang (15 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> It's obvious who the lazy one is. If you could get off your couch, perhaps you could dig up some examples of where the Muslim leadership here has condemned their rmembers travelling to Syria and Iraq to participate in The Islamic State terrorist activities and genocide.
> 
> Sure, they have been upset by The Australian graphically exposing these activities, but not by the activities themselves, even though they all knew that these graphic images were previously widely circulated in their community.
> 
> This is a typical reaction;




Can you explain how that quote supports your view that the Muslim community's are upset that the media has published these images and not that they're upset with the image itself?  Or am I reading that wrong and it wasn't supposed to support your view?  Do you have any quotes from the community's upset with this being published rather than the act itself?


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2014)

overhang said:


> Do you have any quotes from the community's upset with this being published rather than the act itself?




Yes I do. I just gave you one;



> NSW Islamic Council head Khaled Sukkarieh concurred, describing the latest Sharrouf images as “beyond belief”. “To see photos of a seven-year-old being subjected to this kind of rubbish, we condemn it all in the name of Islam,” Mr Sukkarieh said.




Not a word about the atrocities that produced the heads, it's all about "images". Sharrouf had already tweeted these images to his mates in the Muslim community, to show what a great time he was having, and encourage more recruits to the cause of the Islamic State.

I fully understand the Left's desire not to upset the Islamic Community. After all there are several marginal Labor seats in Sydney's West that hinge on the Islamic vote.


----------



## McLovin (15 August 2014)

It's funny how America is now grappling with how to deal with a militiarised police force that looks like it belong in Baghdad. The statistics on the number of times SWAT is used per year as compared to how often it was 15 years ago is amazing, something like a ten fold increase. Especially when considered against the backdrop of falling crime. The ramp up all started so that police would have a counter terrorist ability. For many in America, especially poor blacks, they now live in a dystopian police state.

When you chip away at people's liberties, this is where you end up...







> Washington: The most striking photographs from Ferguson, Missouri, aren't of Saturday's demonstrations or Sunday night's riots; they're of the police. Image after image shows officers clad in Kevlar vests, helmets, and camouflage, armed with pistols, shotguns, automatic rifles, and tear gas. In one photo, protesters stand toe-to-toe with baton-wielding riot police, in another, an unarmed man faces several cops, each with rifles at the ready.
> 
> What's more, Ferguson police have used armoured vehicles to show force and control crowds. In one photo, riot gear-clad officers are standing in front of a mine-resistant ambush protected vehicle, barking commands and launching tear gas into groups of demonstrators and journalists.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/ferguso...-us-police-20140815-104das.html#ixzz3AQCqOc5Q


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2014)

> That police are eager to use their new weapons and vehicles isn't a surprise. As The New York Times notes, "The ubiquity of SWAT teams has changed not only the way officers look, but also the way departments view themselves. Recruiting videos feature clips of officers storming into homes with smoke grenades and firing automatic weapons."
> 
> That is how we get images like the ones in Ferguson, where police officers brandish heavy weapons and act as an occupying force. We should expect as much when we give police departments military weapons. Already – when it comes to predominantly black and brown communities – there's a long-standing culture of aggressive, punitive policing. Add assault weapons and armoured vehicles, and you have a recipe for the repressive, violent reactions that we see in Ferguson, and that are likely inevitable in countless other poor American neighbourhoods.




Yes, that is pretty disturbing, but in gun crazy USA, perhaps not surprising.

Meanwhile in the UK, British bobbies still do not routinely carry weapons.

Evidence of a cultural disparity there...


----------



## overhang (15 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> Yes I do. I just gave you one;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What is he concurring with?  Because it sounds like he like the rest of us believes the image is beyond belief because who would subject a child to this sort of activity.  In your quote he didn't once blame the media for publishing the images.  If he was talking about the media then why would he say subject a 7 year old to this type of rubbish?  As the media haven't subjected the 7 year told to anything at all but rather the extremists have.  You are looking for something that is there that simply isn't. 


> NSW Islamic Council head Khaled Sukkarieh concurred, describing the latest Sharrouf images as “beyond belief”. “To see photos of a seven-year-old being subjected to this kind of rubbish, we condemn it all in the name of Islam,” Mr Sukkarieh said.




That's funny because I remember Abbott trying very hard to win over those Western Sydney suburbs during election time, didn't he win a few too?


----------



## explod (15 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> It's funny how America is now grappling with how to deal with a militiarised police force that looks like it belong in Baghdad. The statistics on the number of times SWAT is used per year as compared to how often it was 15 years ago is amazing, something like a ten fold increase. Especially when considered against the backdrop of falling crime. The ramp up all started so that police would have a counter terrorist ability. For many in America, especially poor blacks, they now live in a dystopian police state.
> 
> When you chip away at people's liberties, this is where you end up...
> 
> ...




Good points, education and employment opportunities across the planet is what's needed.  We were headed that way once with The Columbo Plan.

Forget big highway infrastructure, armies and trying to impress everyone on the news.

If we do not start to be serious about a new positive direction the child holding the dead head will be coming to a street near to you. Yes and on the streets of the US they are well down this track.

This govunment is a joke.

Suggestions are, tackling the issue of expansionism in particular population growth. No surrogacy, medical assisted pregnancies or any forms of welfare on children to be born could be a start.


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2014)

overhang said:


> What is he concurring with?  Because it sounds like he like the rest of us believes the image is beyond belief because who would subject a child to this sort of activity.  In your quote he didn't once blame the media for publishing the images.




No of course he didn't. How could he? As i told you these images were already common knowledge in rhe Muslim community. There was not a peep out of their leaders, until The Australian splashed them as headlies and put them under the spotlight. 

I don't know who you are referring to as "the rest of us". I imagine they all share your political views. Your views remind me of Neville Chamberlin who  brandished his “piece of paper” and proclaimed “peace for our time”, after returning from Munich. His appeasemnt of the Nazi regime allowed Hitler a free hand to run riot in Europe.

Why do you think the Islamist leaders haven't condemned the atrocities against Christian minorities in Iraq by The Islamic State?



> Vatican calls on Muslim leaders to condemn Christian persecution in Iraq
> Statement suggests dialogue with Islamic representatives may be cut if leaders fail to denounce crimes in name of religion




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...im-leaders-condemn-christian-persecution-iraq


----------



## overhang (15 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> No of course he didn't. How could he? As i told you these images were already common knowledge in rhe Muslim community. There was not a peep out of their leaders, until The Australian splashed them as headlies and put them under the spotlight.
> 
> I don't know who you are referring to as "the rest of us". I imagine they all share your political views. Your views remind me of Neville Chamberlin who  brandished his “piece of paper” and proclaimed “peace for our time”, after returning from Munich. His appeasemnt of the Nazi regime allowed Hitler a free hand to run riot in Europe.
> 
> ...




How could he?  Well quite easily he could come out and say he is upset with the media portraying Muslims in bad light... but he he didn't and most *reasonable* people would interpret that 'he' like everyone else is disgusted by this crime.  But we all know your predisposition prevents you from any rational judgement on this matter.  You wouldn't have the faintest clue but yet make the assumption that the Australian Muslims were passing this photo around like a weekly newsletter amongst each other.  I would accept that there would be a small minority in this group who are extremists and had access to this image before the media.  

Don't even try and attempt to act like you understand my political views on the subject just because I called you out on your rubbish.


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2014)

Of course it's political and you know it. Right here is the reason why the left rubbish Israelis and kow-tow to the Islamists;



> On Monday at the Lakemba mosque, to mark the end of Ramadan, the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association Samier Dandan delivered a speech attacking the Abbott government for its support of Israel and praising the Labor Party for its apparent about-face two days earlier.
> 
> The politics of marginal Western Sydney seats appears to be the driver of the change in Labor’s policy on Israel; namely, that the NSW Labor Right is concerned about the Muslim vote in Sydney.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...nternal-intifada/story-fni0cwl5-1227009197074


----------



## sydboy007 (15 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> No of course he didn't. How could he? As i told you these images were already common knowledge in rhe Muslim community. There was not a peep out of their leaders, until The Australian splashed them as headlies and put them under the spotlight.
> 
> I don't know who you are referring to as "the rest of us". I imagine they all share your political views. Your views remind me of Neville Chamberlin who  brandished his “piece of paper” and proclaimed “peace for our time”, after returning from Munich. His appeasemnt of the Nazi regime allowed Hitler a free hand to run riot in Europe.
> 
> ...




Your logic sounds similar to the child abuse in various Churches that was common knowledge but action was only taken when various media organisation splashed reports of the coverups.

You can be part of a community and not know everything in it.  Maybe the moderate leaders were aware of some horrific photos but hadn't actually seen them?  You take the negative view on anything to do with non Christian religions.

By the sounds of it you're all for another Australian soldier presence on the ground in Iraq and the middle east?  What kind of military solution are you proposing?  Do you expect it to go better than Afghanistan and Iraq?  What's the goals and how will they be achieved?


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> By the sounds of it you're all for another Australian soldier presence on the ground in Iraq and the middle east?  What kind of military solution are you proposing?  Do you expect it to go better than Afghanistan and Iraq?  What's the goals and how will they be achieved?




If that's what it sounds like to you then you are dumber than I thought you were. And of course you take the negative view in respect of non-Islamic religions. You must be having a real problem on whether to support the Sunnis or the Shi'ites who love suicide bombing and beheading each other as well as Chrisitian minorities, and they seem to love their work..


----------



## noco (16 August 2014)

I watched that SBS show Insight presented by Jenny Brockie on Tuesday night and this Mr.Elkholed had been to Syria on a humanity project distributing some $60,000 to the needy....He emphatically warned young Australians against going to Syria.

There was a 19 year old Muslim in the audience in the ISIS uniform and he was being cross questioned for his reason for supporting terrorism in Syria and he keep answering the fact he had to carry out the teachings of the Kuran......There was a blonde headed woman sitting behind him who on occasions kept telling him not to answer.

She left the show half way through and this young man followed suit.......His father, who was in the audience, showed deep concern for his son.....The father could not reason with him to stay in Australia.....that young man was simply a brainwashed zombie........It is the same thing that is happening here in Muslims schools......the Koran clearly states, if you are not a Muslim you must be eliminated.    


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ould-think-again/story-fnihsrf2-1227025996470

*“They want recruits, that’s why they are putting all this rubbish online,’’ he said. “ISIS can’t recruit Syrians, so they need foreigners to join them. I’m hoping their campaign is not a success, but you never know. Time will tell.”

Mr El-Kholed said that during his visits he witnessed IS fighters beheading prisoners during public executions “in front of hundreds of children”, and was lucky to escape injury after being shot at twice at checkpoints in Syria’s largest city of Aleppo.*


----------



## Craton (16 August 2014)

noco said:


> I watched that SBS show Insight presented by Jenny Brockie on Tuesday night and this Mr.Elkholed had been to Syria on a humanity project distributing some $60,000 to the needy....He emphatically warned young Australians against going to Syria.
> 
> There was a 19 year old Muslim in the audience in the ISIS uniform and he was being cross questioned for his reason for supporting terrorism in Syria and he keep answering the fact he had to carry out the teachings of the Kuran......There was a blonde headed woman sitting behind him who on occasions kept telling him not to answer.
> 
> ...




This is what our law enforcement should be targeting. Propaganda and brainwashing content. How is another matter. Could start with the ISP's and the like as they have the capabilities to monitor was is being hosted via their IP addresses. Might take a joint international effort though.

Why even M$ has taken down sites hosted elsewhere: http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-details-updates/

Update: Details on Microsoft Takeover
July 10, 2014·by Natalie Goguen



> Earlier today, we released a joint statement with Microsoft announcing the settlement of the unprecedented and overreaching seizure of 23 of our domains. We are thrilled to announce the settlement of this dispute and are excited to return to work connecting our 18 million users to their website and devices.
> 
> How did this happen?
> On Monday, June 30, 2014, Microsoft obtained a US court order to take control of our most popular domain names used by both our Free and Enhanced Dynamic DNS services. As a result, nearly 5 million hostnames went dark and 1.8 million customer websites and devices became unreachable.
> ...


----------



## sydboy007 (16 August 2014)

Craton said:


> This is what our law enforcement should be targeting. Propaganda and brainwashing content. How is another matter. Could start with the ISP's and the like as they have the capabilities to monitor was is being hosted via their IP addresses. Might take a joint international effort though.
> 
> Why even M$ has taken down sites hosted elsewhere: http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-details-updates/
> 
> ...




From last Sunday 

http://www.zdnet.com/au/turnbull-admits-limitations-of-data-retention-proposal-7000032480/

_Speaking at the GovHack awards in Brisbane on Sunday, Turnbull departed from his set speech after facing a number of questions from the audience on the proposal. He again clarified that web browsing history would not be retained and it would simply be the IP addresses for user accounts.

But he admitted that there were "costs and practicalities" that still needed to be addressed with the internet service providers, in particular with ISPs that have very rapid allocation of IP addresses to users.

*He joked, however, that the tech-savvy audience members for the GovHack awards would have no trouble circumventing any data retention scheme that would be established by the government.*

"Your web surfing history is a matter for you. You've all got VPNs [Virtual Private Networks] anyway, so all of you appear to be somewhere in Iowa when you go online, I know that. Anyway, I won't go on," he said._

I'd love to see a lot of damaging content on the internet blocked, but unless you can get it blocked at the top of the DNS tree it's pretty easy to bypass any country based blocks.  Even China doesn't have 100% success in blocking international content they don't like - they generally end up using a sledge hammer to crack the peanut and block entire domains when they take offence to something.

The fact is it's very cheap and very easy, and getting easier, to avoid most electronic snooping by Governments.


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## Craton (16 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> The fact is it's very cheap and very easy, and getting easier, to avoid most electronic snooping by Governments.




All lot has to do with the fact govts. had no idea of the potential back in the day. To me, they are all still playing catch up.

Your right of course, very difficult  for security agencies to stay ahead of the curve without screening each and every packet header and payload. Oh wouldn't they love that! No, wait, didn't someone say NSA and PRISM?

As I've said before, I don't think what the govt. is proposing will do diddly squat in capturing the targeted groups but will simply create a honey pot of extremely valuable data and force those groups to go even darker. To make matters worse, it will be these very same targeted groups that will seek that very same fat, juicy data either by stealth or by force for their own nefarious means.


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## SirRumpole (16 August 2014)

So, can the govmint find out who is using VPN's ?


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## sydboy007 (16 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> So, can the govmint find out who is using VPN's ?




https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=anonymous vpn

Not if you sign up with the correct one and they're able to resist hacking.

The aussie Govt would know you've connected to the anonymous VPN server, but they have no idea where your traffic has gone afterwards.

Plenty of services advertise the extreme lengths to which they to go to ensure the anonymity of their servers - no hard drives, no form of logging, so even if the servers are taken away there's nothing of use in them.

My VPN provider does the above as well as located some servers in jurisdictions that would not be particularly cooperative with a western govt requesting information.


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## DB008 (16 August 2014)

noco said:


> I watched that SBS show Insight presented by Jenny Brockie on Tuesday night and this Mr.Elkholed had been to Syria on a humanity project distributing some $60,000 to the needy....He emphatically warned young Australians against going to Syria.
> 
> There was a 19 year old Muslim in the audience in the ISIS uniform and he was being cross questioned for his reason for supporting terrorism in Syria and he keep answering the fact he had to carry out the teachings of the Kuran......There was a blonde headed woman sitting behind him who on occasions kept telling him not to answer.
> 
> ...






When they (young, naive, 'easily influenced' Muslims) watch stuff like this....well, it's not going to turn out well...



Wahhabi Cleric Explains Proper Way of Beheading to his Followers: You Should Enjoy Yourselves


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## SirRumpole (16 August 2014)

> The aussie Govt would know you've connected to the anonymous VPN server, but they have no idea where your traffic has gone afterwards.




I suppose even using a VPN could be an indication that people have something to hide. This is supposed to be the underground network for pedophile rings among other things.

Of course, they can be used to deter hacking, so it seems impossible to sort the wheat (innocent users) from the chaff (terrorists and crims).


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## sydboy007 (16 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I suppose even using a VPN could be an indication that people have something to hide. This is supposed to be the underground network for pedophile rings among other things.
> 
> Of course, they can be used to deter hacking, so it seems impossible to sort the wheat (innocent users) from the chaff (terrorists and crims).




* Most companies require you to use one for remote access to the office

* Lots of people use them to say watch Hulu int he USA or BBC iplayer or other online services that geoblock.

I'd say the vast majority of VPN traffic is innocent.

Now the Govt did indicate they were going to legislate they could force the handing over of VPN encryption keys, but to my way of thinking that would only work for a VPN located within Australia.

Pretty much Turnbull has already admitted the policy is easily avoided.  I'd not be surprised in sign ups to the various VPN providers have taken off.


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## noco (17 August 2014)

How barbaric these Muslim radicals are, how desperate they are to give Christians two choices......convert to Islam or be killed.

Once again it is being left to the Americans, the Brits and the Aussies to eradicate this world menace...

What do we have the United Nations for if they can't show some spine to bring ISIS into line.....The UN is a toothless tiger. It is supposed to be the UN roll in preventing these wars.

Why aren't the UN investigating who is supplying the arms and money to this group and impose trade sanctions as has been done to Russia over the Ukraine disturbance?  



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...men-and-children/story-fnb64oi6-1227027038863

Here are a couple of comments to this link which makes a lot of sense.

J*im 4 hours ago

And some Muslim leaders deliebrately fail to mention this, and the growing number of similar barbaric and evil crimes against humanity carried out by ISIS, when they talk of the "noble act" of young men going to the Middle East to "help" their fellow man.  Shameful.
FlagShare
4JohnChristineAlanStephanieLikeReply
peter
peter 4 hours ago

There is but one solution to this problem. There must be a major interdict into Iraq with small bands os SAS or other elite groups co-ordinating air support to destroy supply lines and disrupt communications of ISIS> Then there should be a complete elimination of the ISIS troops as a fighting force. Nothing but complete annihilation will do. Any small remnant will only grow like a rotting lichen elsewhere.  *


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## sydboy007 (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> How barbaric these Muslim radicals are, how desperate they are to give Christians two choices......convert to Islam or be killed.
> 
> Once again it is being left to the Americans, the Brits and the Aussies to eradicate this world menace...
> 
> ...




* The current Iraq mess is due to the coalition of the willing going into Iraq in 2003.  There were no radicals in Iraq prior to this.
* Core ISIL troops were trained by the USA back in 2012 in Jordan in the hopes they'd be able to topple the Assad regime in Syria.  
* Lets not forget the overthrow of Gaddafi orchestrated by the USA and how well that's gone for the Libyan people
* The Taliban morphed from the troops the USA trained in Afghanistan to fight the Russians so many years ago.

Do you see the pattern yet?


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## noco (17 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> * The current Iraq mess is due to the coalition of the willing going into Iraq in 2003.  There were no radicals in Iraq prior to this.
> * Core ISIL troops were trained by the USA back in 2012 in Jordan in the hopes they'd be able to topple the Assad regime in Syria.
> * Lets not forget the overthrow of Gaddafi orchestrated by the USA and how well that's gone for the Libyan people
> * The Taliban morphed from the troops the USA trained in Afghanistan to fight the Russians so many years ago.
> ...




Saddam Hussein did gas thousands of Kurds....so what would you have called Saddam Husein?

Rumpy, I do agree with you regarding the USA.......the Yanks did unwittingly try to force democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan for what ever reason.....Many say it was all about oil but I learned today that the Yanks only purchase about 12.9% of their consumption from the middle east.

Perhaps, those countries like Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan may have been better ruled by their dictators who used an iron fist if anyone stepped out of line....it is called genocide......that seems to be the way it was where there was always fear instilled in the minds of their citizens.

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised


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## sydboy007 (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> Saddam Hussein did gas thousands of Kurds....so what would you have called Saddam Husein?
> 
> Rumpy, I do agree with you regarding the USA.......the Yanks did unwittingly try to force democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan for what ever reason.....Many say it was all about oil but I learned today that the Yanks only purchase about 12.9% of their consumption from the middle east.
> 
> ...




Not denying the dictators of those countries were bad, just that you're calling for more intervention when the mess we we can draw near direct lines to various interventions and each time we seem to have had a much worse outcome.

Pretty much the Americans helped to create the mujahideen in Afghanistan that later morphed into the Taliban that then gave us 9/11 and then the war in Afghanistan and the Iraqi mess.  Then in desperation the US helped encourage the Arab spring which lead to more war in Syria and training of locals there who then turned into core fighters for ISIL and now Iraq is turning into a lawless state similar to what Afghanistan was as a refuge for the Taliban.

So if the Americans hadn't decided to involve themselves in Afghanistan all those years ago, hadn't decided to go into Iraq and while leaving Afghanistan a broken mess, hadn't trained the syrians opposition the art of urban asymmetrical warfare, would we still have the middle east slowly descending into militant Islam?

So exactly how is the USA UK Australia Canada et al supposed to make ti all better when in many ways we caused the mess you see.  Why would anyone else want to get involved in the quagmire?

I say enough is enough.  Buy the least amount of oil from these countries as we can, stop trading with them, ignore them as much as we can, and let them exhaust themselves with their hate until they realise, as the west did a few hundred years ago, that religions shouldn't run countries.  

*I'm sick of my tax dollars going to fund wars on the other side of the world that we have no business being involved in!*


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpy, I do agree with you regarding the USA.......the Yanks did unwittingly try to force democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan for what ever reason....




I didn't write that, it was syd, however I agree that if it wasn't for superpower competition in terms of territory and the arms trade, the ME may be a lot more peaceful than it is now.

The Russians were first into Afghanistan, and the US was first into Iraq, after arming Hussein and making it possible for him to carry out his atrocities.

Probably the US hoped that Iraq would seriously weaken Iran, who the US had serious problems with, including Iran taking US hostages, and Hussein did his best to oblige, the Iraq-Iran war was the longest war of the 20th century and killed hundreds of thousands on both sides.


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## explod (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> Saddam Hussein did gas thousands of Kurds....so what would you have called Saddam Husein?
> 
> Rumpy, I do agree with you regarding the USA.......the Yanks did unwittingly try to force democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan for what ever reason.....Many say it was all about oil but I learned today that the Yanks only purchase about 12.9% of their consumption from the middle east.
> 
> ...




Have a look at the petroleum companies involved in the area, French, USA and the UK.  They pull most of the strings on fuel and want to keep it that way.

The manufacture (as distinct from obvious supply) of arms is another one very much to US companies in roundabout ways of course.

Jennie Brockie's show the last week (SBS) demonstrated very clearly the inroads we could make if parties could be sat down to talk and understand each other.  Many of these terrorists are from poor circumstances with no real education and as young as 12.  Get good TONY to work in this direction.

At the moment the short term chaos is out of control.  When are we going to walk from this approach and help people to understand and in turn to help each other.


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## noco (17 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I didn't write that, it was syd, however I agree that if it wasn't for superpower competition in terms of territory and the arms trade, the ME may be a lot more peaceful than it is now.
> 
> The Russians were first into Afghanistan, and the US was first into Iraq, after arming Hussein and making it possible for him to carry out his atrocities.
> 
> Probably the US hoped that Iraq would seriously weaken Iran, who the US had serious problems with, including Iran taking US hostages, and Hussein did his best to oblige, the Iraq-Iran war was the longest war of the 20th century and killed hundreds of thousands on both sides.




My apology Rumpy mistaking you for Syd.....I trust you were not insulted?


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## noco (17 August 2014)

explod said:


> Have a look at the petroleum companies involved in the area, French, USA and the UK.  They pull most of the strings on fuel and want to keep it that way.
> 
> The manufacture (as distinct from obvious supply) of arms is another one very much to US companies in roundabout ways of course.
> 
> ...





You should talk to the radical Muslims about that....they have one thing in mind and that is World domination and they are trying to do it by fear without favors.
Ex General Peter Leahy predicts this could go on for another 100 years.....you, I and Tony will be long gone by then.


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> My apology Rumpy mistaking you for Syd.....I trust you were not insulted?




No problem, as I generally agreed with what he said


----------



## sydboy007 (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> You should talk to the radical Muslims about that....they have one thing in mind and that is World domination and they are trying to do it by fear without favors.
> Ex General Peter Leahy predicts this could go on for another 100 years.....you, I and Tony will be long gone by then.




You keep ignoring the fact that the WEST created most of it

Arms and training from the west created the Taliban

Arms and training from the west created ISIL

Do you think the insane policy of going for a 3rd round will achieve a different outcome??  3rd times a charm I suppose.

I'm with explod on trying to get these people to realise they're mostly the same and that there's no need to keep on killing each other, but I'm also over us fiddling in the affairs of other countries to either further our own agenda or because we think we know best.

Unless you expect America to keep a perpetual fly over in Iraq, exactly what do you expect them to do and achieve?

When the Govt here is trying push through legislation to make the under 30s destitute if they lose their job, I'd prefer the money we're wasting on our foreign military adventures to be spent at home for the betterment of the Australian people.  The cost of just the Iraq war for Australia was $3B back in 2007 so who knows how much it is now.  The Americans have wasted going on 2 trillion, with forecasts the long tail costs of all the broken soldiers needing support to bring the full cost to $6T.  The Brits went through over 30B pounds in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Canadians had spent $22B by 2008.  What did we get for it?  Hundreds of thousands of deaths and a country more riddled with despair than when it was under the rule of a vicious and cruel dictator.  I don't think we can afford to have that kind of success any more.

Imagine if that money had been spent on building factories and infrastructure to give the locals hope.  People with jobs and a future to look forward to don't strap bomb vests to themselves or go around the world looking to kill someone.  Imagine the universities and schools that could have been built, providing education to girls and encouraging a more secular malaysian / indonesian style of islam.  Definitely harder to implement than your bomb them way, but at least we'd have had a fighting chance of success.


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## Julia (17 August 2014)

explod said:


> Jennie Brockie's show the last week (SBS) demonstrated very clearly the inroads we could make if parties could be sat down to talk and understand each other.  Many of these terrorists are from poor circumstances with no real education and as young as 12.



And therefore absolutely ripe picking for radical Muslims.



> At the moment the short term chaos is out of control.  When are we going to walk from this approach and help people to understand and in turn to help each other.



Explod, I agree entirely with your suggestion, but if only it were that simple.   Just taking our own Australian parliament as an example, the likelihood of both major sides sitting down and sensibly concluding what is best for Australia is pretty much beyond comprehension.  And these are on the whole relatively sensible, educated individuals, unemcumbered by decades of hostility and hatred.

So many people have tried to get warring factions to even sit down and talk.  Little progress has ever occurred.
The idea that Australia, whose own house is far from in order, might have the capacity to effect some peacemaking solution is seemingly fanciful.

Syd, good summary of the counter-productive effects of western intervention in the M.E.   
I find the images of Iraqi people, little kids even, women carrying babies, trudging their way to escape over such hostile ground, with minimal sustenance, immensely distressing, but have had enough of our involvement in their fates.


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## noco (17 August 2014)

Listen to Bridgitte Gabraiel on the history of Islam and the Muslims.

Her book has the title "PEACEFUL MAJORITY IRRELEVANT".

Do listen to what she has to say about the history of Islam long before the Americans became involved.

Also the adjoining links thereafter.



http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...ceful_majority_irrelevant/#.U6UXA6GQa30.email


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## explod (18 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Unless you expect America to keep a perpetual fly over in Iraq, exactly what do you expect them to do and achieve?
> 
> When the Govt here is trying push through legislation to make the under 30s destitute if they lose their job, I'd prefer the money we're wasting on our foreign military adventures to be spent at home for the betterment of the Australian people.  The cost of just the Iraq war for Australia was $3B back in 2007 so who knows how much it is now.  The Americans have wasted going on 2 trillion, with forecasts the long tail costs of all the broken soldiers needing support to bring the full cost to $6T.  The Brits went through over 30B pounds in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Canadians had spent $22B by 2008.  What did we get for it?  Hundreds of thousands of deaths and a country more riddled with despair than when it was under the rule of a vicious and cruel dictator.  I don't think we can afford to have that kind of success any more.
> 
> Imagine if that money had been spent on building factories and infrastructure to give the locals hope.  People with jobs and a future to look forward to don't strap bomb vests to themselves or go around the world looking to kill someone.  Imagine the universities and schools that could have been built, providing education to girls and encouraging a more secular malaysian / indonesian style of islam.  Definitely harder to implement than your bomb them way, but at least we'd have had a fighting chance of success.




Excellent points.


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## DB008 (18 August 2014)

noco said:


> I watched that SBS show Insight presented by Jenny Brockie on Tuesday night and this Mr.Elkholed had been to Syria on a humanity project distributing some $60,000 to the needy....He emphatically warned young Australians against going to Syria.
> 
> There was a 19 year old Muslim in the audience in the ISIS uniform and he was being cross questioned for his reason for supporting terrorism in Syria and he keep answering the fact he had to carry out the teachings of the Kuran......There was a blonde headed woman sitting behind him who on occasions kept telling him not to answer.
> 
> ...






*Abu Bakr, Australian ISIS supporter who stormed off SBS Insight, arrested*



> A MUSLIM teenager who sparked a wave of controversy after storming off the set of SBS Insight has been arrested after racially abusing a cleaner, it has emerged.
> 
> The teen, named by Fairfax as Abu Bakr, allegedly abused the cleaner in an attack last weekend at a Western Sydney shopping centre.
> 
> Bakr, 19, who attracted headlines over his firey performance on the SBS show last week, allegedly threatened and intimidated another man in Bankstown.




http://www.news.com.au/national/abu-bakr-australian-isis-supporter-who-stormed-off-sbs-insight-arrested/story-fncynjr2-1227027662421


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## sydboy007 (18 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> *Abu Bakr, Australian ISIS supporter who stormed off SBS Insight, arrested*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/abu-bakr-australian-isis-supporter-who-stormed-off-sbs-insight-arrested/story-fncynjr2-1227027662421




Gosh.  Those NEW laws have already been so effective.

Oh, actually current laws were already enough....


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## luutzu (18 August 2014)

Is it just me or Abbott always seem like he's applying for position of Deputy Sheriff to the US?


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## luutzu (18 August 2014)

I watched those mob movies and the FBI always seem to have a very hard time trying to catch known criminals over the wiretaps... as in, they know who the crims are, they have bugged the phones and the property, are following them every day... and it's almost impossible to catch them.

Yet somehow it's a good idea to cast a wide net over every one of your citizens in hope of getting some lead.

I think these policy makers should've spent more time watching Columbo rather than CSI.


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## Craton (19 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I watched those mob movies and the FBI always seem to have a very hard time trying to catch known criminals over the wiretaps... as in, they know who the crims are, they have bugged the phones and the property, are following them every day... and it's almost impossible to catch them.
> 
> Yet somehow it's a good idea to cast a wide net over every one of your citizens in hope of getting some lead.
> 
> I think these policy makers should've spent more time watching Columbo rather than CSI.




Great observation luutzu!  Got me laughing, thanks...

Columbo, "...just one more thing." What a classic!


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## luutzu (19 August 2014)

Craton said:


> Great observation luutzu!  Got me laughing, thanks...
> 
> Columbo, "...just one more thing." What a classic!




Yea, Columbo is a classic. 
Haven't seen anything close to it since. Maybe the UK's 'Sherlock' series.

---

With metadata retention... the only good it will do is make Oracle and IBM and the like a lot of money.


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## noco (21 August 2014)

Can this possibly happen here in Australia?......you bet it can..... so be afraid.....be very afraid.

I have been saying for months, Islam is not a religion but a political force who are determined to dominate the world......I say close the doors now to any more Muslims entries......Let what is happening in the UK and Europe be a lesson to all of us here in Australia.

You cannot negotiate with these radicals.......they are deeply brainwashed and they will let nothing stand in their way in the name of Allah. 

Well worth reading and how true it is!!!
This Will Give You Cold Chills!
Geert Wilders is a Member of the Dutch Parliament.


In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: "Who lost Europe ?" Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons in New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,
Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First, I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe ..  Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem ..

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe . These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe .  With larger congregations than there are in churches.  And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden ..  In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim.   Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils.  In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims.  Non-Muslim women routinely hear '*****, *****'.  Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin .  The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves.  Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel ..  I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.

San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering  25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just12 years from now.  Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate.  But there are few signs of that.  The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France .  One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority.  We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey .

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example, against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots.   Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators 'settlers',  because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.  Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet.  His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem.  But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time.  Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed.  Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good.  If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins.  But in its essence Islam is a political ideology.  It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person.  Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.  Islam means 'submission'.  Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.  The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel , first, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz , second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.   Israel is facing the front lines of Jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia .   Israel is simply in the way, the same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel .  It is a war against the West.  It is Jihad.   Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West .  It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning.  It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.  If they can get Israel , they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and Jerusalem ....

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.

Please take the time to read and understand what is written here, Please send it to every free person that you know, it is so very important. 

Snopes’ authentication:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/wilders.asp






________________________________________


----------



## Craton (21 August 2014)

According to Michael Ware, apparently even Bin Laden was horrified at the cruelness of the extreme I.S.

From: http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/08/21/4071673.htm

So how will the anti terrorism proposal stop I.S. and the like exactly?


----------



## SirRumpole (21 August 2014)

Craton said:


> So how will the anti terrorism proposal stop I.S. and the like exactly?




The question that hasn't been answered is what do we do with people like that scum that beheaded the journalist when and if they decide to return here ?

If ISIS win they will probably decide to remain in Syria, but if they lose and assuming they survive they will turn tail and ride for cover, which is back in Australia.

There doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it, unless we can prove that they have actually been fighting for ISIS. Maybe put a blanket ban on anyone travelling to Syria, but there are an estimated 150 Australians already fighting there. Maybe they aren't all fighting for ISIS. How do we find out and then what do we do about them ?


----------



## sydboy007 (21 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The question that hasn't been answered is what do we do with people like that scum that beheaded the journalist when and if they decide to return here ?
> 
> If ISIS win they will probably decide to remain in Syria, but if they lose and assuming they survive they will turn tail and ride for cover, which is back in Australia.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it, unless we can prove that they have actually been fighting for ISIS. Maybe put a blanket ban on anyone travelling to Syria, but there are an estimated 150 Australians already fighting there. Maybe they aren't all fighting for ISIS. How do we find out and then what do we do about them ?




Christmas Island / Naru / Manus Island.  Until they're verified as a non threat they can remain quarantined from society.

Stop the Terrorists - not like it's metadata so even Abbott and Brandis should be able to explain it


----------



## Calliope (21 August 2014)

Craton said:


> So how will the anti terrorism proposal stop I.S. and the like exactly?




I think it is fairly obvious that no half-arsed anti-terrorist proposals will stop the Islamic subjugation of Europe and eventually Australia. In fact they now control 15 Federal seats courtesy of Labor. 



> Although just 2.2 per cent of the population, Australia’s organised Islamic minority is exerting a disproportionate and worrying influence on Australia's Federal parliament.
> 
> At least 15 Federal seats are now in the hands of Islamic voters with populations of between 5 per cent and 22.67 per cent with many more seats likely to swing on the Islamic vote.
> 
> Two seats that have over a 20 per cent Islam component are held by Labor, including Blaxland at 22.67 per cent (Jason Clare) and Watson at 20.25 per cent (Tony Burke)




http://australian-news.net/articles/view.php?id=238


----------



## noco (21 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> I think it is fairly obvious that no half-arsed anti-terrorist proposals will stop the Islamic subjugation of Europe and eventually Australia. In fact they now control 15 Federal seats courtesy of Labor.
> 
> 
> 
> http://australian-news.net/articles/view.php?id=238




Ed Kusek has been very quiet about Islam......Ed is a Labor member in Federal parliament ....he is the one who took his oath with one hand on the Kuran.


----------



## banco (21 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I watched those mob movies and the FBI always seem to have a very hard time trying to catch known criminals over the wiretaps... as in, they know who the crims are, they have bugged the phones and the property, are following them every day... and it's almost impossible to catch them.
> 
> Yet somehow it's a good idea to cast a wide net over every one of your citizens in hope of getting some lead.
> 
> I think these policy makers should've spent more time watching Columbo rather than CSI.




A lot of the terrorists that have been caught in Australia were caught with wiretap evidence (using existing laws).  Thankfully a lot of our homegrown terrorists seem to forget the golden rule that if you are engaged in a criminal conspiracy assume your phone is tapped.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

noco said:


> Ed Kusek has been very quiet about Islam......Ed is a Labor member in Federal parliament ....he is the one who took his oath with one hand on the Kuran.




In Noco's Australia, if China or Japan or other Asian powers were to fight against Australia, there'll be a camp or two outback for all Asian Australians.

Heck, don't think they need to fight against Australia, just fought wars among each other and all Asian Australian are screwed.


----------



## noco (21 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> In Noco's Australia, if China or Japan or other Asian powers were to fight against Australia, there'll be a camp or two outback for all Asian Australians.
> 
> Heck, don't think they need to fight against Australia, just fought wars among each other and all Asian Australian are screwed.




Please explain what your post has to do with that Labor Party Muslim Ed Kusek?


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

banco said:


> A lot of the terrorists that have been caught in Australia were caught with wiretap evidence (using existing laws).  Thankfully a lot of our homegrown terrorists seem to forget the golden rule that if you are engaged in a criminal conspiracy assume your phone is tapped.




I'm all for wiretaps, satellite and other electronic surveillances. 

But to me, they're only useful once you already have your suspect/s. To get a bunch of metadata is a waste of time and money. Not a lot of serious terrorists, organised and trained terrorists, goes to websites or communicate through normal form of communications - I would imagine.

Storing metadata is OK if you have too much money and don't know what else to do about it. But the cost-benefit just isn't there.

For my money, I'd spend those money on training and recruiting spies and agents on the ground; a couple millions or two to turn informers etc.

The 911 hijackers lived in the US for a few years, across a few states, before their planned and organised hijack if I remember right. 

-----
I could be wrong... But I know a thing or two about databases so if my experience from these could somewhat be assumed as similar to the metadata approach, it's doomed.

Databases sounds awesome, sounds like centralised data at your fingertip... but they are very inflexible, any minor changes require months of work and tonnes of money - at least that's what contractors will tell you. 

To use it in this way, on an entire population, and in a rapidly changing information age with new devices and technologies, servers and devices that could be accessed outside your jurisdiction... it's an IT contractor's dream and an intelligence agent's nightmare.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

noco said:


> Please explain what your post has to do with that Labor Party Muslim Ed Kusek?




I'm saying you shouldn't be too quick to judge an entire race or religion like you have in post #148.

There are racist Arabs i'm sure, there certainly are Arabs who use religion of Islam to get terrorists to fight the West etc. etc. 

Ever wonder if there's some instance when Judaism or Christianity has ever been use to fight wars and commit murder and genocide? Christianity became a state religion because the Emperor Constantine was able to use it effectively and turn the tide of his war.

And while I didn't read the entire article you posted in #148, it's a lie that Israel is fighting for Democracy against terrorists blah blah.

It's fighting for its own colonial expansion; it's subjugating an entire people for at least since 1967 for no other reason than wanting to make Israel the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean sea.

To some extend, I honestly don't think you would like Israel too much if you believe what I'm saying about its actions. I'd like to believe that if you take the trouble to look things up, listen to scholars and historians on the subject, that you'll start to see Israel differently too... Just don't hate all Jewish people like you hate all Muslims when you find out.

---

With regards to the outback concentration camps... the US interned all American of Japanese descent during WW2. Built a camp and put guards around them and everything.

So if you look at Arabs overseas fighting their own wars and write and believe the stuff you write, not too far to assume what I am assuming.


----------



## sydboy007 (23 August 2014)

for anyone who'd like to listen about what metadata is by people who are able to explain it, along with the pros and cons of exactly what is stored.

http://phildobbie.com/main/podcasts/crosstalk/item/1324-metadata-what-to-keep


----------



## noco (25 August 2014)

Now I wonder why these 80 Australian Muslim leaders are against Abbott's counter terrorism laws?

Where is Ed Kusek?......He has not said a word about all this.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...inst-tony-abbott/story-fnj45fvb-1227034970939


----------



## sydboy007 (25 August 2014)

For those using the chrome browser you can install the free extension from the chrome store called zenmate.

Very worthwhile if using wifi or a hotel internet connection

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----------



## sydboy007 (25 August 2014)

noco said:


> Now I wonder why these 80 Australian Muslim leaders are against Abbott's counter terrorism laws?
> 
> Where is Ed Kusek?......He has not said a word about all this.
> 
> ...




So glad to see every non muslim in the country out banner waving Team Australia flags in full and unconditional support for counter terrorism laws the Government so far has been unable / unwilling to competently explain.

The Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security (OIGIS) came out a couple of weeks ago and said they have neither the body count or skills to appropriately monitor the use and potential abuse of the new surveillance powers being proposed.

How can we have faith in a system when the watcher of the watchers has admitted it's not able to fulfil it's role competently?

http://www.zdnet.com/au/spy-agency-computer-taps-face-oversight-deficiency-7000032654/


----------



## Craton (25 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> So glad to see every non muslim in the country out banner waving Team Australia flags in full and unconditional support for counter terrorism laws the Government so far has been unable / unwilling to competently explain.
> 
> The Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security (OIGIS) came out a couple of weeks ago and said they have neither the body count or skills to appropriately monitor the use and potential abuse of the new surveillance powers being proposed.
> 
> ...




Not enough watchers eh?
Guess that's one way to create jobs then of course another issue arises, how to screen the screening of potential applicants.


----------



## noco (26 August 2014)

Maybe this will happen on an AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC FLIGHT one day.


Would you believe this!



Hi: I tried to check this out with snopes, neither denied or confirmed...


Subject: Fwd: Flight 297


CANCELLED FLIGHT WOW!!!



They may be "politically incorrect", but at least they had the courage
to report it.

In my opinion, the Muslims are all getting very brave now. Read Tedd
Petruna's story below. Can you imagine, our own news media now are so
politically correct that they are afraid to report that these were all
Muslims?

Unbelievable. Thank God for people like Tedd Petruna.

Tedd Petruna is a diver at the NBL (Neutral Buoyancy Lab) facility at
NASA Houston .. Tedd happened to be on the AirTran Flight 297, from
Atlanta to Houston . Here's his report :

“One week ago, I went to Ohio on business and to see my father. On
Tuesday, the 17th, I returned home. If you read the papers the 18th
you may have seen a blurb about where an Air Tran flight was canceled
from Atlanta to Houston due to a man who refused to get off of his
cell phone before take- off.. The story was only on Fox News. That was
NOT what really happened.

I was seated in 1st class coming home. Eleven Muslim men got on the
plane in full Muslim attire. Two of them sat in 1st class and the rest
seated themselves throughout the plane, in coach class, all the way to
the back. As the plane taxied out to the runway, the stewardesses gave
the safety spiel that we are all so familiar with.

At that time, one of the men in 1st class, got on his cell and called
one of his companions back in coach. He proceeded to talk on the phone
in Arabic very loudly and very, very aggressively. This activity took
the 1st stewardess out of action for she repeatedly told the man that
cell phones were not permitted at that time. He ignored her as if she
were not there. The man, who answered the phone back in the coach
section, did the same and this took out the 2nd stewardess. Further
back in the plane, at the same time, two younger Muslims, one in the
back on the aisle, and one sitting in front of him by the window,
began to show footage of a porno video they had taped the night
before. They were very loud about it.

The 3rd stewardess informed the two men that they were not to have any
electronic devices on at this time. One of the men said "shut up
infidel dog!"

The stewardess attempted to take the camcorder and the Muslim began to
scream in her face in Arabic. At that exact moment, all eleven of the
men got up and started to walk throughout the cabin. I guess that
because of the noise, the flight crew must have decided that there was
something amiss and changed the plane's directions to head back to the
terminal.

The commotion and noise was reaching a feverish pitch, and at this
point I had had enough! I got up and started towards the back of 1st
class when I heard a voice behind me from another Texan twice my size,
say, "I got your back." Then I grabbed the man, who had been on the
cell phone, by the arm and said, "You WILL sit down in your seat or
you WILL be thrown from this plane!" As I "led" him around me to take
his seat, the fellow Texan grabbed him by the back of his neck and his
waist and headed him back to his seat. I then grabbed the 2nd man and
said, "You WILL do the same!"

He protested loudly, but my adrenaline was flowing now and he was
going to go also. Just as I escorted him forward, the plane stopped,
the doors opened and three TSA agents and four police officers entered
the cabin. Myself and my new Texas friend were told to cease and
desist for they had the situation under control.

I was quite happy to oblige, actually. There was still some sort of
commotion in the back, but within moments, all eleven Muslim men were
escorted off the plane. The TSA agents then had their luggage
unloaded. We talked about the occurrence and were in disbelief that it
had happened.

Then suddenly, the door opened again and in walked all eleven Muslim
men! Stone faced, eyes front and robotic, (the only way I can describe
it) and they were reseated. The stewardess from the back had been in
tears and when she saw the men, she was having NONE of it! Since I was
up front, I heard and saw the whole ordeal. She told the TSA agents
that there was NO WAY she was staying on the plane with the Muslim
men. The agent told her that they had searched the men and were going
through their luggage with a fine tooth comb. However, nothing had
been found and that the men were allowed to proceed on to Houston.

The captain and co-captain came out of the cockpit and told the agent,
"We and our crew will not fly this plane!" After a word or two, the
entire crew, luggage in tow, left the plane. Five minutes later, the
cabin door opened again and a whole new crew walked on. Again, this
was where I had had enough! I got up and asked the TSA agent,” What
the hell is going on?

I was told to take my seat. The airlines and TSA were sorry for the
delay and we would be home shortly. I said, "I'm getting off this
plane". The stewardess sternly told me that she could not allow me to
get off. Now I'm really mad! I said, "I am a grown man who bought this
ticket, whose time is mine, with a family at home, and I am going
through that door, or I'm going through that door with you under my
arm, but I AM going through that door!"

And then I heard a voice behind me say, "So am I!" Then everyone
behind us started to get up and say the same thing. Within two
minutes, I was walking off that plane where I was met by more TSA
agents, who asked me to write a statement about the incident. I had
five hours to kill at this point waiting for the next flight to
Houston , so why the hell not give them my statement. Due to the
amount of people who got off that flight, it was canceled. I was
supposed to be in Houston at 6 PM, but I finally got there at 12:30
AM. If you don't believe this, look up the date and then Flight 297
from Atlanta to Houston.

If this wasn't a terrorism dry run, I don't know what is. The
terrorists wanted to see how TSA would handle it, how the crew would
handle it, and how the passengers would handle it. I'm telling this to
you because I want you to know. The threat IS real. I saw it with my
own eyes."

Tedd Petruna

May I request that you keep this going until this incident reaches the
email of all POLITICIANS and the news media!

PEOPLE THAT DELETE THIS TYPE OF EMAIL, REFUSE TO PASS IT ON, OR SIMPLY
DON'T CARE ARE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PEOPLE THAT DO CARE CAN'T MAKE
ANY HEADWAY... THE THREATS ARE REAL.


----------



## boofhead (26 August 2014)

A http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp is a link to the event. Seems Tedd probably wasn't on the flight.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 August 2014)

It's scary how people will try to whip up hatred on the internet. The story is obviously embellished.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2014)

> If this wasn't a terrorism dry run, I don't know what is. The
> terrorists wanted to see how TSA would handle it, how the crew would
> handle it, and how the passengers would handle it. I'm telling this to
> you because I want you to know. The threat IS real. I saw it with my
> own eyes."




This stuff is cr@p. Does anyone really believe that terrorists would draw attention to themselves in such an obvious manner for a "dry run" ? As if anyone would say to the authorities "I'm a terrorist out for a bit of practice for the real thing, my name, address and phone number are ...".

This bit of tripe is just so much redneck propaganda it's laughable that people like noco actually believe it.

Grow a brain matey.


----------



## sydboy007 (26 August 2014)

Polling out today seems to give the truth to the real reasons as to why Abbott and the Govt are trying to whip up a national security scare.

As for noco, that fake report was out so long ago I have to quickly google to remind myself of how many factual errors there were in it.  I suppose latching on to false reports tha further your agenda is OK because it's for TEAM AUSTRALIA.  We may not be Global Police, but hopefully make a decent side kick.


----------



## banco (26 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> This stuff is cr@p. Does anyone really believe that terrorists would draw attention to themselves in such an obvious manner for a "dry run" ? As if anyone would say to the authorities "I'm a terrorist out for a bit of practice for the real thing, my name, address and phone number are ...".
> 
> This bit of tripe is just so much redneck propaganda it's laughable that people like noco actually believe it.
> 
> Grow a brain matey.




I think 90% of Noco's news comes from chain emails.


----------



## Craton (26 August 2014)

noco said:


> Maybe this will happen on an AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC FLIGHT one day.
> 
> 
> Would you believe this!
> ...




noco, the sceptic in me says that's emotional terrorism spin doctoring at it's very worst. Next we'll be hearing about how man didn't land on the moon and that the Twin Towers was a Fed plot. 

Remember ppl, keeping the punters running scared is the best way to control us!


----------



## noco (26 August 2014)

boofhead said:


> A http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp is a link to the event. Seems Tedd probably wasn't on the flight.




Hmmmmmm......the way I read the story is Tedd departed from the plane with some others before it took off so yes he was not on the flight when it took off.....you see this all happened on the aircraft as it was taxing to take off and then returned to the tarmac when the trouble started......He  caught the next plane 5 hours later.

Did anyone else read it that way or are you all following boofhead's analysis of events.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2014)

noco said:


> Did anyone else read it that way or are you all following boofhead's analysis of events.




I read it as just another urban myth.


----------



## noco (26 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I read it as just another urban myth.




An urban myth ha.......perhaps you might like to explain or are you convinced that perhaps what happened to Tedd or Todd is true.......come what may Todd was on the aircraft while on the ground......he got off the aircraft with other people, never got back on and then boarded another flight about 5 hours later.

There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.


----------



## sydboy007 (26 August 2014)

noco said:


> There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.




Isn't that exactly what you've done?  Decided to believe 1 version is 100% accurate and any other version is simply not true and anyone questioning the validity is facetious.

You do realise that "story" was from way back in 2009.  It wasn't a recent event.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp

Analysis: The so-called "eyewitness" who wrote this viral email wasn't even on the plane, according to AirTran officials quoted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Dec. 5, 2009. Tedd J. Petruna was booked on Flight 297, airline records show, but his connecting flight from Akron arrived too late for him to actually board the Houston-bound plane.

AirTran had previously taken issue with many of the specifics of Petruna's self-aggrandizing account, which the company describes as "an urban legend." To be sure, the email contains no shortage of melodrama.

Would a real Muslim terrorist ”” as opposed to, say, one you might see depicted in a Hollywood action picture, or a comic book ”” actually yell "Shut up, infidel dog!" at a flight attendant?

More to the point, would they do so during what is supposed to be an undercover "terrorist dry run"?

You be the judge.

Update #2: Flight attendant affidavits contradict Petruna's claims

Feb. 23, 2010 - Affidavits filed the day of the incident by all three flight attendants aboard Flight 297 describe problems they had dealing with a group of passengers described as "unruly" and "uncooperative," but there's no mention of men in "Muslim garb" shouting threats in Arabic or having physical confrontations with other passengers. View the documents...


----------



## banco (26 August 2014)

noco said:


> An urban myth ha.......perhaps you might like to explain or are you convinced that perhaps what happened to Tedd or Todd is true.......come what may Todd was on the aircraft while on the ground......he got off the aircraft with other people, never got back on and then boarded another flight about 5 hours later.
> 
> There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.


----------



## noco (26 August 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Isn't that exactly what you've done?  Decided to believe 1 version is 100% accurate and any other version is simply not true and anyone questioning the validity is facetious.
> 
> You do realise that "story" was from way back in 2009.  It wasn't a recent event.
> 
> ...




So you are now saying Ted Petruna's account of advents on that flight are completely false.....I find it hard to believe someone could come up with such a story which is near to what the other flight attendants have stated.


----------



## luutzu (26 August 2014)

Craton said:


> noco, the sceptic in me says that's emotional terrorism spin doctoring at it's very worst. Next we'll be hearing about how man didn't land on the moon and that the Twin Towers was a Fed plot.
> 
> Remember ppl, keeping the punters running scared is the best way to control us!




Noco reminds me of the few times I intentionally decided to watch a good horror movie just to get a little adrenaline but ended up turning the lights on all night and a much needed toilet break can wait til morning.

The difference is he seem to already believe in the boogey man and actually believe the stuff he read seriously exists; then set out to scare the heck out of everyone else because he's so convinced they exists. 

Now that's a really scary horror story.


----------



## noco (27 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Noco reminds me of the few times I intentionally decided to watch a good horror movie just to get a little adrenaline but ended up turning the lights on all night and a much needed toilet break can wait til morning.
> 
> The difference is he seem to already believe in the boogey man and actually believe the stuff he read seriously exists; then set out to scare the heck out of everyone else because he's so convinced they exists.
> 
> Now that's a really scary horror story.




What a heap of CODS WADDLE ....stop talking through your chocolate lips...that really is kindergarten stuff if you consider yourself a person of maturity....I suggest you grow up.


----------



## Craton (27 August 2014)

OK, OK, back to attacking the ball.

From: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/39129...-details-on-data-retention.aspx#ixzz3BT5EpLzp



> Update: AGD offers list of data to be stored.
> 
> 
> The Australian Government has offered the telecommunications industry a precise definition of the metadata it wants retained under the banner of national security.
> ...




Sorry but for my liking, lots of conflicting stuff there as opposed to what our pollies were spinning to us. I know it's not done and dusted as per the last sentence. Now tell me, if the data already collected is adequate but the retention time needs to be elongated, why no extend the data retention time?

Tell me, why in the hell does ASIO and AFP want more and more info stored then?

Big Brother tactics just doesn't wash with me as there already are plenty of avenues for the sec. agencies to use other than a blanket cover of all Australia citizens. No, I don't have anything to hide but I sure feel like I have under these proposals. :bad:


----------



## Craton (25 September 2014)

So, recently our security agencies have thwarted a couple of threats WITHOUT the need to implement tougher laws and yet, the govt. persists with this agenda of eroding our rights and branding it an inconvenience for our safety.

I'll look this up soon enough but can anyone tell me what occurred to the laws enacted for the Sydney Olympic games, the post 9/11 tightening and no doubt other laws passed to strengthen security as temporary measures?

No doubt, these have flown under the radar and still in force.

Speaking of rights, I guess the only time we stood up for our rights was at the Eureka Stockade and we all know what happened there. Anyhow, the govt. will have its wishes and we will be apathetic as always. Recent events will no doubt spur support for any counter terrorism measure the govt. dreams up.

Tony speaks of Team Australia but he doesn't speak like a Captain asking for each player to do his or her part. He's just calling on support for his own agenda. Way to go Tony, great way to unite and bond the populace on a common front.


----------



## Julia (25 September 2014)

> Tony speaks of Team Australia but he doesn't speak like a Captain asking for each player to do his or her part




What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton?   How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?

What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?

Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation.  I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.  

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited.  If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here.  Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on.   I don't know who is right or wrong.  But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

> And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.




Definitely right.

It's the same when the US did not get involved in Syria, according to some sections of the community, the US didn't care when Muslims were massacred, but as soon as they try and intervene in Iraq they are capitalist imperialists.

You can never please some people.


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## overhang (25 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation.  I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.
> 
> If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited.  If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.
> 
> ...




Well said Julia, I know we disagree on the measures the government is taking in regards to solving this problem (data retention) but I full agree that no matter what you're going to upset some and please others on these matters.  Same with our military commitment, some will think we should for varying reasons and others will think we shouldn't.  No doubt in years to come we will have the hindsight to look back and discuss the merits of the decisions.  If WMD's were found in Iraq then that war would have been viewed very differently.


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## noco (25 September 2014)

Julia said:


> What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton?   How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?
> 
> What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?
> 
> ...




+1....they are in a catch 22 situation.....damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I am sure the road they have taken will be approved by the majority of Australians.


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## Craton (25 September 2014)

Julia said:


> What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton?   How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?
> 
> What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?




Not in the heavy handed way his is doing that's for sure. I would want him to be extra inclusive of all and asking for our help in keeping a level head and not whipping us into a frenzy such that we give no resistance to any new rules/laws. 
On the one hand the govt. raised the alert level then on the other says to go about your daily life without concern. Seems at odds doesn't it?



> Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation.




Yep and you're not the only one. If we had a Bali style bombing here or if there was a clear threat from ISIL to the Aussie people the situation would be clearer. I sure would like to see some transpiracy not conspiracy from our authorities. Allowing them to enact laws on heresay smacks of the WMD saga.



> I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.
> 
> If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited.  If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.




We have been adequately protected to date. If the govt/sec agencies have real concerns, then they are not sharing that info and are treating us like dummies. This I certainly balk at.



> If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here.  Good luck with that.
> 
> If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.
> 
> And so on.   I don't know who is right or wrong.  But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.




Why is Abbott trying to rush through the new legislation?
We are not at war, yet.

Too right, it is a very tricky, sticky situation especially as we are branded as a Deputy Sheriff of the US of A but I don't like seeing us riding shot gun when there are other avenues to pursue. A new coalition of the willing if you like or better still, support from the Middle East states at the very least. Abbott's New York meeting will shed more light on this no doubt.

FWIW, I don't think the terrorism threat is any more than the intervening years since 9/11, it's always been high IMO. If we think we are isolated from world events because of our remote, island country, we are delusional. Sure our location has insulated us for a time but any realist would know that it was only a matter of time before any unlawful group would make inroads in our fair land.

Russian mafia, Asian Triads, OMC gangs and the like to name a few all have a foot hold here. One doesn't have to be blind Freddy to work out what all the refugee boats were being sent here were for. Anyhow, I agree that whatever the govt. does will not appease all, but to blindly follow and allow further erosion of our so called rights just doesn't wash with me.


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## Julia (25 September 2014)

Craton said:


> Not in the heavy handed way his is doing that's for sure. I would want him to be extra inclusive of all and asking for our help in keeping a level head and not whipping us into a frenzy such that we give no resistance to any new rules/laws.
> On the one hand the govt. raised the alert level then on the other says to go about your daily life without concern. Seems at odds doesn't it?



No.  Not to me.   Seems to me it's a very delicate line for the government to tread between providing adequate warning to the population about what clearly is an increased threat and not inspiring panic.
So far I think they've done a reasonable job on this, not always helped by media whose only aim is increased sales.

If you don't believe there is any increased thread to us recently, I'd suggest you just haven't been paying attention to global events, let alone yesterday's attack on police officers.



> If we had a Bali style bombing here or if there was a clear threat from ISIL to the Aussie people the situation would be clearer.



Australia has been specifically named by ISIS as target.  Maybe check up on some of what is documented in terms of clear threats.



> I sure would like to see some transpiracy not conspiracy from our authorities. Allowing them to enact laws on heresay smacks of the WMD saga.



Hearsay?   Intercepted telephone calls.  Real voices.

There is general agreement that the current situation bears little relationship to the WMD stuff.



> We have been adequately protected to date. If the govt/sec agencies have real concerns, then they are not sharing that info and are treating us like dummies. This I certainly balk at.



that's your perception.  Mine is different.  I've found the fine line between 'need to know' and 'openness' has been reasonably well handled.  We don't know what we don't know.  Some level of trust is required.
If you're not prepared to engage that, then that's up to you.

You say, 'we're not at war yet'.  Perhaps not.  Some would differ on that.   You would seem to recommend that no preparation be made for anything to get worse.  I would disagree.  




> Too right, it is a very tricky, sticky situation especially as we are branded as a Deputy Sheriff of the US of A



That is an outmoded expression which I've not heard for more than a decade.  It's not appropriate in the present context.  There is general agreement throughout much of the world that ISIS is something to be dealt with.
Many ME muslim countries are in accord with this.   No resemblance to the WMD thing.



> A new coalition of the willing if you like or better still, support from the Middle East states at the very least. Abbott's New York meeting will shed more light on this no doubt.



Several ME countries have already participated in air power, I think five so far.  Look it up.  It has been clearly covered on ABC radio all networks.


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## luutzu (26 September 2014)

Julia said:


> What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton?   How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?
> 
> What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?
> 
> ...




In such time, it's actually easier for the gov't to do whatever it is they want.

It gets tough later if the war drags on too long, if ("too many")of our soldiers are harmed, when the economy goes bad because of lower domestic spending, less tourism... That's when gov't change hand.


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## Craton (26 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Several ME countries have already participated in air power, I think five so far.  Look it up.  It has been clearly covered on ABC radio all networks.




I will admit I've not had my ear glued to the radio, stuck in the papers nor eyeballs pressed to the T.V. due to work, family and life in general so will be the first to admit I'm not up-to-the-minute.

I do listen to the ABC radio and watch ABC T.V. when I can and try to keep informed. In fact, on the way home tonight (ha, last night now) I heard about the attack on the naval ADF officer. Regarding ME countries assisting, not enough info has filtered through to me so yes, call me ignorant. I could rave on about good, let them handle the ISIS threat and we'll take care of our own backyard but will desist from going there, oops too late. 

Look, I'm not against the govt. and its agencies doing their jobs, I'm simply against giving them more power than they need. It seems to me from their effort to date that they have more than enough weaponry to keep us safe. I'd also add that no amount of extra power/legislation will stop a determined fanatical extremist mob from acting against us.

Julia, you may be happy to allow the govt. to have its way, I'm not and certainly not without a shadow of a doubt that any new measures are duly warranted.


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## IFocus (26 September 2014)

Our disconcerting certainty in battling terrorism



> We ought to wonder how a Government that weeks ago seemed incapable of attracting and holding our trust is now cast as the solid paternal guardian against nameless dread,





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...rting-certainty-in-battling-terrorism/5767916


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## noco (26 September 2014)

I believe with the 600 Federal police raid made a few days ago and the demonstration that followed later by some 200 Islamic sympathizers, it has perhaps brought them out of the wood work sooner than they wanted to.....No doubt the Feds would have their identities on camera and on record for future use.... It may have been smarter for those demonstrators to have remained out of the picture.

We have some pretty smart cookies in our intelligence operation and this recent episode may well have worked in the Feds favor.

There will continue to be the odd brain washed radical who will endeavor to make himself a martyr......and there will also be some hot head Australians who will try to intimidate Muslims who frequent their haunt.....I certainly do not blame them for protesting against the location of new mosques in light of the fact that Muslims like to have their loud speakers wailing out at 6 am in the morning....I am sure it will continue for some years to come.

Strange as it may seem but I do recall feuds between Protestants and Catholics in Brisbane where I once lived as a kid (late 1930's and early 1940's).....there was so much hatred in those days which brought about many a skirmish between the two groups.......shanghai fights and punch ups were the order order of the day....I had vivid memories of one of our Protestant gang being hit on the ankle with a rock from a shanghai...it severed an artery and claret squirted out like a bloody fountain....fortunately my aunty who was a nurse and lived next door administered first aid and he lived to fight another fight.


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## Calliope (26 September 2014)

Craton said:


> I will admit I've not had my ear glued to the radio, stuck in the papers nor eyeballs pressed to the T.V. due to work, family and life in general so will be the first to admit I'm not up-to-the-minute.
> 
> I do listen to the ABC radio and watch ABC T.V. when I can and *try to keep informed*.




It is not surprising then, that you are so badly informed on security issues. You should try harder.


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## overhang (26 September 2014)

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising then, that you are so badly informed on security issues. You should try harder.




Yes Craton definitely needs  to read some Murdoch press to really get that team Australia vibe http://imgur.com/2TglCpg
Or perhaps Fairfax who put the picture of the wrong bloke as the accused terrorist who stabbed the police across most their tabloids.


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## Craton (26 September 2014)

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising then, that you are so badly informed on security issues. You should try harder.



Yeah, thanks for that. Try harder, you funny.

As if I've got oodles of spare time to keep abreast with the latest developments so as to compete with you learned lot. Living in a remote/regional area I do subscribe to the local fish wrapper and its only today I read in it of the Arab states assisting the US of A and more news of the UN meeting.
Delayed? Sure.
Badly informed? Doubt it.



overhang said:


> Yes Craton definitely needs  to read some Murdoch press to really get that team Australia vibe http://imgur.com/2TglCpg
> Or perhaps Fairfax who put the picture of the wrong bloke as the accused terrorist who stabbed the police across most their tabloids.




Wrong photo! Heard about that and what a shocker thing to do. Journalism fact checking at its best, NOT.

Anyways thanks to all for posting in this thread. Great to see the opposing views and as ever, will keep an open mind to all that is fed to me by our govt. Wont mean I'll accept everything point blank though.


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## Calliope (26 September 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes Craton definitely needs  to read some Murdoch press to really get that team Australia vibe
> Or perhaps Faironly exposure to news Craton's fax who put the picture of the wrong bloke as the accused terrorist who stabbed the police across most their tabloids.




I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.. Apparenly Craton's only exposure to newspapers comes from fish wrappers;



> My local fish wrapper retlyported today that the Abbott govt. wants to introduce new counter terrorism measures which proposes to force internet providers to keep metadata of all our online and phone usage for up to two yrs.


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## overhang (26 September 2014)

Calliope said:


> I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.




Well I was more commenting on the poor journalism that we currently see in mainstream press but yes I do agree with you that it's important to study both sides of the press regardless of political leaning.  In this day and age it's easier than ever to do, you don't need to go out and buy 3 newspapers but can view each paper individually over the Net.


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## Craton (26 September 2014)

Calliope said:


> I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.. *Apparenly Craton's only exposure to newspapers comes from fish wrappers*;




*See, you are funny...:*xyxthumbs

Calliope, I'd counter by saying that to be well informed one would need to be in the thick of things. I'm not and rely on the reporting via our media.

I understand the govt. point of view. I don't agree with it and FWIW, I've no affiliation with any political party nor do I lean one way or the other.


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

Craton said:


> *See, you are funny...:*xyxthumbs
> 
> Calliope, I'd counter by saying that to be well informed one would need to be in the thick of things. I'm not and rely on the reporting via our media.
> 
> I understand the govt. point of view. I don't agree with it and FWIW, I've no affiliation with any political party nor do I lean one way or the other.




You will have to excuse Calliope, he's been away for a while


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## Craton (26 September 2014)

Oh my!

Police investigating a claim that an Australian navy officer was assaulted by two men who threatened to cut his throat in Sydney’s north-west yesterday morning have announced the allegations have been dropped.


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## michael1992 (28 November 2016)

The Abbot's government data laws sucks big time. It the people who suffer whether it is stopping piracy or counter terrorism it the people who suffer from these laws of data retention laws. The people of Australia demand internet freedom and that all. The act of invading privacy is awful.

I have been concerned with the issue and luckily I found VPN that solves all the problem. Whether it protecting piracy or accessing the content. Currently this vpn is offering a two exclusive plan they are offering huge discount do check it out.


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