# Prop Shops in Australia



## Largesse (9 August 2008)

So far i have only been able to find two even though i know more exist

Propex
Tibra Capital


Is there an exhaustive list anywhere?


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## skyQuake (11 August 2008)

Propex, Fusion Derivatives, Transmarket are prop shops that speculate, ie positional stuff.

Tibra, IMC, Optiver (and i think 1 more) are marketmakers for oppies. They're 100% delta hedged but prop nonetheless.
I think only UBS and ML are the only IBs that has a prop trading division in Aus.


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## Ben (12 August 2008)

add gsjbw, jpmorgan and citibank to that list


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## RobinHood (12 August 2008)

Ben, are you sure they have proprietary divisions in Australia?

And I would definitely not be "adding them to that list", they are a whole different league.


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## MRC & Co (13 August 2008)

Do you work for one of them skyQuake?  You sure know a bit about them.


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## Ben (13 August 2008)

RobinHood:

I am sure they have prop divisions here, my mate works at Citi in currency and fixed interest prop, im pretty sure about JP, and i have just interviewed for a position at GSJBW equity prop

Adding them to the list of IBs that have prop in Australia, not making comment about their quality.


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## rossw (13 August 2008)

skyQuake said:


> Propex, Fusion Derivatives, Transmarket are prop shops that speculate, ie positional stuff.
> 
> Tibra, IMC, Optiver (and i think 1 more) are marketmakers for oppies. They're 100% delta hedged but prop nonetheless.
> I think only UBS and ML are the only IBs that has a prop trading division in Aus.




heaps more options market makers

liquid crapital
timber hill
susqehana
jp morgan
and many more smaller players like sandy bay


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## skyQuake (14 August 2008)

MRC & Co: I start with propex in Sept, have la few friends who work/worked in the others so I did my homework lol...
Just so hard to find a good prop place in Aus that actually trades

Prop shops:
Timber hill is computer/algo trading. You won't learn how to trade and I dont think they're hiring. I know the IBs are incredibly elitist and its almost impossible to jump straight in without working in Dealings or Equities for a while first.
My advice is do your research, google and read some forums. Some of them are not what they appear - if it asks for money down, get out.


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## MRC & Co (15 August 2008)

skyQuake said:


> MRC & Co: I start with propex in Sept, have la few friends who work/worked in the others so I did my homework lol...
> Just so hard to find a good prop place in Aus that actually trades
> 
> Prop shops:
> ...




lol yep, agree on most Props, important to do your research.

See you in Sept bud.


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## Ben (15 August 2008)

When did you guys find out about Propex? I am still waiting which I guess means I didnt get it...


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## skyQuake (15 August 2008)

Hey Ben, I was in the first batch of people and they told me a while after the final round. 

MRC & Co, did you speak to Max direct or go through the normal channels? Congrats too


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## MRC & Co (15 August 2008)

Normal channels basically, didn't know there was another way.

I was in the second batch.  

Congrats too mate.


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## Ben (15 August 2008)

so i didnt get in. Oh well my fall back is a job at GSJBW equity prop. Good luck with it fellas and congrats


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## MRC & Co (15 August 2008)

Thanks Ben, very sorry to hear.  

Good luck with GSJBW.


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## flipztacy (15 August 2008)

Hey All

Just wanted to how you would approach prop shope like those mentioned above. what qualification or expereince are they looking for??


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## RobinHood (16 August 2008)

Anyone know much about the TransMarket structure? It seems like quite a solid firm. (Go back to early 80s)

Directional (they appear to be) ?
Salary + Profit split?
Profit split ony (as at Propex)


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## RobinHood (16 August 2008)

flipman:

Trading experience
Intelligence (I don't mean a genius, but you can't be stupid).
Passion for trading

I don't think a degree is necessary...


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## gm500 (17 August 2008)

From what I've heard of Transmarket:

They are more focused around spread trading. They pay a salary aswell as a profit percentage.

They seem closer to an options MM prop firm in their recruitment activities - wanting degree educated/grades etc.

Well respected firm none the less.



Edit: Here is an old Transmarket job ad, which shows kind of what they do:

Australian/Asian Equity Derivative Trader
Australia's foremost proprietary firm seeks traders/ analysts to kick start our equity division.

The position involves:
•	Incorporation of long and short positions
•	CFD trading
•	Pairs trading
•	Butterfly trading
•	Basket arbitrage
•	Technical analysis

Successful applicants will have full discretion on trading strategies with the potential to hire your own team of traders to further expand our equity division.

The ideal candidate will have at least 5 years experience with a proven track record.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2009)

I'm going to submit my resume to a couple of places today. Wish me luck!


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## James Austin (12 January 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> I'm going to submit my resume to a couple of places today. Wish me luck!




good luck Naked,

myself, these places do not appeal.

i wonder if there is much performance pressure?!; 

that's not a bad thing though, some personailities, maybe yours?!, would thrive in such an environment.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2009)

James Austin said:


> good luck Naked,
> 
> myself, these places do not appeal.
> 
> ...




Trading with a group of people would be much more interesting/exciting then trading alone. Plus with my limited capital, I need to take huge risks per day to get where I want to be. 

You don't know pressure until you try and land a flimsy glider in high speed winds on your first solo flight with a bunch of people watching. Dam that was fun


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## MRC & Co (12 January 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> I'm going to submit my resume to a couple of places today. Wish me luck!




Good luck Naked!

Which firms did you submit your resume too?


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Good luck Naked!
> 
> Which firms did you submit your resume too?




Liquid Capital, Propex, Tibra, SIG, IMC Pacific.


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## Trembling Hand (14 January 2009)

Maybe of interest to some of you,

http://seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=79&PageNumber=1&JobID=14737158&cid=jobmail


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## Naked shorts (14 January 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Maybe of interest to some of you,
> 
> http://seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=79&PageNumber=1&JobID=14737158&cid=jobmail




I would absolutely love a job like that, but unfortunately I only have 18 months worth of trading exp.


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## white_goodman (14 January 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> I would absolutely love a job like that, but unfortunately I only have 18 months worth of trading exp.




i find the advertisment silly anyway, if you have 5 years experience and a proven track record you wouldnt need to work for them lol


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## Trembling Hand (14 January 2009)

white_goodman said:


> i find the advertisment silly anyway, if you have 5 years experience and a proven track record you wouldnt need to work for them lol




Yeah why not? Because you already own your own Ferrari


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## Naked shorts (14 January 2009)

white_goodman said:


> i find the advertisment silly anyway, if you have 5 years experience and a proven track record you wouldnt need to work for them lol




If you got a substantial amount of your profits given back to you it might be worthwhile. Imagine getting 20% of your profits back on a billion worth of capital you trade with 

(note: im not saying that this particular job is exactly like this)


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## Trembling Hand (14 January 2009)

20%  I think you will find prop works on a much higher split than that!


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## Naked shorts (14 January 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> 20%  I think you will find prop works on a much higher split than that!




It was an arbitrary number used to explain a point. 

No word back from the prop shops yet


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## MRC & Co (14 January 2009)

Yeh, I hear Singapore is becoming a big destination for global props.  Trying to move in on the Asian markets with quicker connectivity (hence, the intraday part).


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## white_goodman (18 January 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> If you got a substantial amount of your profits given back to you it might be worthwhile. Imagine getting 20% of your profits back on a billion worth of capital you trade with
> 
> (note: im not saying that this particular job is exactly like this)




but what im trying to say is if you have a proven track record for 5 years your capital should be near to the amount that a prop shop would intially give you anyways...


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## MRC & Co (18 January 2009)

white_goodman said:


> but what im trying to say is if you have a proven track record for 5 years your capital should be near to the amount that a prop shop would intially give you anyways...




You can't loose your own money as a prop trader (in a good firm anyways).  

And the connectivity is lightening fast (again in a good firm).

Some firms may offer a retainer (some people like it for the safety aspect).


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## Trembling Hand (19 January 2009)

white_goodman said:


> but what im trying to say is if you have a proven track record for 5 years your capital should be near to the amount that a prop shop would intially give you anyways...




It actually makes very good business sense to use a prop to trade rather than your own capital. And if you are looking to push it you will have much much larger positions than what your own account can do, even after 5 years. The problem with doing your own account is you have to live off your capital so every time you take some out you reduce your trade size. This is much less of a factor in prop. You take earnings and still trade the same size.

+ what MR C has mentioned. 

+ Not to mention the fact that human contact each day is a +.


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## Nick Radge (19 January 2009)

I play golf weekly and socialize with 3 o4 4 prop shop traders and have done for 10-years. Here is how it works if you want to get involved:

There are 3 ways to get involved:
1. Through their own training program, although only a few run these
2. Approach them with your own trading statements
3. Approach them with system test results

Let's assume you have designed a SPI system through Amibroker or some other program and approach one of the Prop shops to get some funding.

They will assess the system as best they can with the information you provide. They needn't know the intricacies or coding. They will just want a general over view of what you are trying to do. 

They will allow you to start trading with a 1 lot with a maximum monthly drawdown - probably around the $3,000 mark.

After 3-months they will assess progress and may allow you to go to 2 contracts and a slightly larger monthly drawdown.

This process is ongoing.

In terms of remuneration you will usually only be provided with a split of the profits. At first, and probably for some time, that split will be about 40% to 50%. The more consistent you become and the lower the drawdown, the larger the split goes. I know a few guys who are now at 80% which is the highest rate that I'm aware of in Australia, but these guys are making $50k every single month without fail. 

if you hit the monthly drawdown amount early in the piece you will be pulled aside and questioned, Depending on how that goes they will more than likely let you continue with a tight leash. If you consistently hit the drawdown amount chances are that they ask you to leave.

Bottom line is that they offer you a chance to prove yourself and the route taken from there depends on consistency, profitability and exposure.


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## jersey10 (19 January 2009)

Nick Radge said:


> I play golf weekly and socialize with 3 o4 4 prop shop traders and have done for 10-years. Here is how it works if you want to get involved:
> 
> There are 3 ways to get involved:
> 1. Through their own training program, although only a few run these
> ...





wow. very interesting.

does this mean there are prop shops in Noosa? I thought they were all in Sydney??


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## Trembling Hand (19 January 2009)

jersey10 said:


> wow. very interesting.
> 
> does this mean there are prop shops in Noosa? I thought they were all in Sydney??




You can trade remote that i know of with Propex and Fusion.


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## MRC & Co (19 January 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You can trade remote that i know of with Propex and Fusion.




Yeh, from what I am aware, Fusion more remote, Propex more at the office.  I imagine connectivity would be best from the office.  

Interesting stats on the systems example Nick.  Very different to the set-up with discretionary trading (for a beginner) that I know of.  6 lots to begin with, a 50% split and DD is sometimes far larger than 3k per month, gets there in a couple days even.  More you earn, larger the split.

In Europe, I hear splits are higher, due to the competition.  90% is not uncommon.


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## Trembling Hand (24 January 2009)

Ok budding futs traders and punch drunk boxers on ice. Here's ya big chance.

http://seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=60&PageNumber=1&jobid=14819036


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## Largesse (24 January 2009)

Do you reckon propex will have a midyear intake?
I've still got a semester left.... 

A job here would be a dream come true for me


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## Trembling Hand (24 January 2009)

Largesse said:


> Do you reckon propex will have a midyear intake?
> I've still got a semester left....
> 
> A job here would be a *dream come true *for me




Only one way to find out....... :

Nothing wrong with making yourself known. They are very approachable.


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## jersey10 (24 January 2009)

Largesse said:


> A job here would be a dream come true for me




Me too, just don't think i have enough knowledge / experience just yet to give it a real go


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## MRC & Co (24 January 2009)

There is generally a mid-year intake also.


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## jersey10 (24 January 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> There is generally a mid-year intake also.




MRC,

do you know what month that would start?

what sort of technical and fundamental knowledge should i be focussing on? just general stuff in books?  on their website / job ad it says applicants with trading experience will be highly considered does this mean they are looking for people who have already developed their own intra day futures trading system and have got statements to prove they have been profitable for a while?


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## Trembling Hand (24 January 2009)

jersey10 said:


> on their website / job ad it says applicants with trading experience will be highly considered does this mean they are looking for people who have already developed their own intra day futures trading system and have got statements to prove they have been profitable for a while?




I can answer that one. No. If you have a futs system you don't start as a trainee.

They want people who *will *be traders. They want people who are keen enough to already have themselves immersed in the markets.


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## MRC & Co (24 January 2009)

March and September are the start months for the two different intakes.

I got no idea on the rest Jersey, I think previous trading experience is more to do with showing you have passion.  Scalping is a COMPLETELY different method to what I was using beforehand.  So had to learn an entire different style.  Your not expected to be a gun trader when you go into their training program, far from it.

Basically what TH said.


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## Largesse (24 January 2009)

I'm _invested_ in the market, but can't afford to _trade_ the markets yet, as much as i wish i could.... wonder if that counts for anything?

Student living.... poverty


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## lesm (24 January 2009)

jersey10 said:


> Me too, just don't think i have enough knowledge / experience just yet to give it a real go




As TH replied to largesse, 'there is only one way to find out'.....go for it.

Even if you are not successful the first time, they will get to know you, you will have a better idea of what they are looking and how to better prepare yourself.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

propex pay u one thousand dollars a month for six mths to 'train'. this is a joke in my opinion. who are they looking for? who can afford to do this?
i didn't continue with my application because of this............

fortunately i received a better job offer anyway!

Dear xxxxxxxxx

Thank you for your recent application to our advertisement on Seek.

Upon reviewing your application we are pleased to invite you to take
part in the next stage of the recruitment process. As numbers are
extremely limited and the response has been overwhelming it is important
that you understand what being a Proprietary Futures Trader entails

You will initially be trained via a mixture of classroom and simulator
based trading. You will then be placed on a live market whilst being
monitored and guided by an experienced mentor. During this 6 month
training period you will be given $1,000 per month to help you cover
your personal expenses.

Upon successful completion of the training course you will be offered
your own account to trade. This account will be funded by Propex and
your income will be generated by the profits you make trading.

If you would like to proceed with your application, please respond to
this email with an answer to the following questions:

1. What qualities do you have that would make you a successful trader?

2. What have you done that demonstrates you can manage risk responsibly?

Please ensure that your answers are no more than 200 words each.

Regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Propex Derivatives


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## RobinHood (17 February 2009)

The trading done at Prop shops such as Propex is very much independent with the edge coming predominantly from each individual separately. Therefore I don't think it would not be economically viable to subsidize losers. When I say losers, I mean economically, anyone beginning to trade.

An IB flow desk or market maker might have a seat generating $10mil annually irrelevant of the trader. The majority of the "edge" can also come from technology, commissions and capital backing. At these places it can make economic sense to subsidize people not generating actual income - but those who are supporting infrastructure and then some trader trainees.


There is only one directional prop shop I know that offers an initial salary ($60k USD) on their 24 month training program. It is in London & NY - called FNYS (First New York Securities). The salary is a draw against profits, and should they not be generated then you are out. There is an article somewhere about the 'second coming of daytraders' on one of their young traders pulling in 8 figures.


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## Trembling Hand (17 February 2009)

whitey1982 said:


> fortunately i received a better job offer anyway!




Funny!! For a trader there is no better _job_ than the chance at swinging a big line. A couple a months hard labour is a very small price to pay.......... For some.



For most they will never make it because in part they want a job with all the crap that goes with it. You are lucky you found this out now. Good luck.


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

Yes, i understand. well, in terms, of a 'better' job, i was offered a market making position. u r right, perhaps the chance to have a big swing is worth it for some, but i feel i made the right decision.


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## MRC & Co (17 February 2009)

whitey1982 said:


> propex pay u one thousand dollars a month for six mths to 'train'. this is a joke in my opinion. who are they looking for? who can afford to do this?




What would you bring to the table over all the other applicants? 

I would say, the thing that attracts people to a place like Propex, is the chance to trade discretionary.  If your a MM, your bound by rules and won't keep much of your profits.


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## jersey10 (17 February 2009)

whitey, 

what exactly does a market maker position entail and why is it a better job than working at Propex?


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## Largesse (17 February 2009)

clearly he was after a solid base salary rather than profit share

understandable for those that need job security or have short term view


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## MRC & Co (17 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> clearly he was after a solid base salary rather than profit share
> 
> understandable for those that need job security or have short term view




Yeh, that is what I imagine he was after.

Not to mention, if you can't trade your way out of a paper bag, MM will offer you a mathematical edge, no?  Discretionary trading will not offer you a thing, you have to take it yourself.


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

i do think it's more of a science than prop trading. 

i prop trade myself, i just don't know how big an account they would offer you after 6 mths, and realistically how much you could earn off that account. 

all good, but yes, job security did come into it...going prop is a much ballsier decision, and hats off to those that go out there and make a living out of it.


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## Largesse (17 February 2009)

so who'd you end up with?

Tibra, optiver or liquid?


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

yeh, one of those three. fingers crossed it all works out anyway. i'll let u know!


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

jersey, here u go:

http://www.optiontradingpedia.com/market_makers.htm

the position i got was options market making.


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## Largesse (17 February 2009)

so you've got an offer from one of the MM's?

whats the pay structure?
whats your base (give a range if you don't want to give specifics)
how is your bonus calculated (assuming you get one)

where are you based out of?
do you start on a trainee salary?

tell me about the application process aswell

chop chop


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

mate, all a bit personal.


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## whitey1982 (17 February 2009)

in terms of application process tho, plenty of arithmetic and iq testing.


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## Largesse (17 February 2009)

not that personal at all seeing as you will be on a template graduate program salary.

realistically i could just call each of the three places and ask the same questions and they would tell me straight out.

but if you want to be all secretive, by all means do so, don't forget you are posting under an anonymous alias aswell.....


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## Trembling Hand (17 February 2009)

whitey1982 said:


> in terms of application process tho, plenty of *arithmetic *and *iq *testing.



 So they are weeding out any traders then


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## RobinHood (17 February 2009)

lol!

most important thing is that you work in something that suits you.
the unfortunate part about MMs doing rv &arb and big trading houses is that its not something you can test out before to see if you like it.


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## rossw (19 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> not that personal at all seeing as you will be on a template graduate program salary.
> 
> realistically i could just call each of the three places and ask the same questions and they would tell me straight out.
> 
> but if you want to be all secretive, by all means do so, don't forget you are posting under an anonymous alias aswell.....




why don't you call them then?

most MM's list their salary offered in adds that commonly come up on seek etc


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## 1080p (19 February 2009)

whitey1982 said:


> propex pay u one thousand dollars a month for six mths to 'train'. this is a joke in my opinion. who are they looking for? who can afford to do this?
> i didn't continue with my application because of this............




Geez, I would happily pay propex $1000 per month for this opportunity. Unfortunately it seems I'm not what they're looking for...


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## white_goodman (19 February 2009)

1080p said:


> Geez, I would happily pay propex $1000 per month for this opportunity. Unfortunately it seems I'm not what they're looking for...




what did they say?

you get to the interview process?


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## prawn_86 (21 February 2009)

Im looking at applying for the MM's (Optiver etc) also this year, as i'll be graduating end of the year. Dont really wanna live in Sydney, but gotta do it i guess...

Im boning up on my fast maths skills at the moment, doing fraction and decimal multiplications etc to try and get in the mind-set again.

Any other tips out there?


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## MRC & Co (21 February 2009)

Go to the Optiver site and do the practice test Prawn, think it's only 10 Qs (real test is like 80).

When they say quick, it means QUICK!!!!!  :car:


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## prawn_86 (21 February 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Go to the Optiver site and do the practice test Prawn, think it's only 10 Qs (real test is like 80).
> 
> When they say quick, it means QUICK!!!!!  :car:




Thanks mate, i have been using this site to practice:
http://www.thatquiz.org/

I average about 85% accuracy and 3s per question for integers and 6s per question for decimals and fractions

PS - I couldnt find the practice test on the optiver site...


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## white_goodman (23 February 2009)

well i sent in my resume to propex today, probably missed the march intake, lets hope i see you around September MRC & Co


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## rossw (23 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Im looking at applying for the MM's (Optiver etc) also this year, as i'll be graduating end of the year. Dont really wanna live in Sydney, but gotta do it i guess...
> 
> Im boning up on my fast maths skills at the moment, doing fraction and decimal multiplications etc to try and get in the mind-set again.
> 
> Any other tips out there?




after i sat the test at optiver i was talking to someone who said they googled it prior to coming in and found some tips somewhere online. so it might be worth a search around.
i'm not sure how much you can study for this stuff. you either know it or you don't. not much time to stop and think.
oh and tibra's one was all logic q's.


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## Trembling Hand (24 February 2009)

A quick post on the why trade for a prop. To counter the "if ya a good trader why would you need to question".

First and most obvious SIZE. With props willing to let you go nuts with size you would need a huge personal account to match that. HUGE. Almost impossible to get there if you don't start there .

Second COST. Try moving size with retail brokerage. Forget it. You will be cut to bits. This alone could save an active trader $50,000 to $100,000 a year!

Third. IT support straight away. 

Fourth. Having a risk manager helping and looking after you. Their interest is aligned with yours. Lot easier falling into a pit when your sitting in a room by yourself and no one looking out for you.

Fifth In spite of the "best job in the world" spiel it gets friggin boring sitting in your own house. Especially when you are youngish. 

Sixth Better execution into the market.

Seven Experience in development of real traders not all the BS out on the web/books/ etc.

Eight With size and cheap brokerage and a experienced risk manager you can take a small expectancy and make a bucket load.

Ninth And this is the winner for me. You can take profits and still trade the same size. Think about it. If you are trading your own capital every time you take money out its like a loss. You are effecting your future earnings because you are reducing your size. Every time you pay your tax bill you reduce your size. There is no way around it when you trade your own capital.




Probably some props could add to this. But the "if you can trade for yourself why" question is because most have a dream that has nothin' to do with the reality of living off trading.


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## mattlaw (24 February 2009)

TH,

Do you work at a prop shop?

Cheers


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## Trembling Hand (24 February 2009)

mattlaw said:


> TH,
> 
> Do you work at a prop shop?
> 
> Cheers




No but wish I did 5 years ago. If I could find one that connects to K200 I would be in there begging tomorrow.

MR C go ask Max to turn on that switch will ya??


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## mattlaw (24 February 2009)

Yeah mate i was just wondering because i always assumed you traded from home and just threw me a bit when you gave all of those advantages for prop shops.

cheers


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## Trembling Hand (24 February 2009)

mattlaw said:


> Yeah mate i was just wondering because i always assumed you traded from home and just threw me a bit when you gave all of those advantages for prop shops.
> 
> cheers




Actually I'm always sniffing around them because of these things. Mainly the added motivation to trade bigger size. But haven't taken the plunge ... yet.


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## BentRod (24 February 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Actually I'm always sniffing around them because of these things. Mainly the added motivation to trade bigger size. But haven't taken the plunge ... yet.




What about starting your own fund and managing OPM TH?

PS..what is  K200??


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## Trembling Hand (24 February 2009)

BentRod said:


> What about starting your own fund and managing OPM TH?
> 
> PS..what is  K200??




Prop has a better profit split. Not to mention a lot easier admin.

K200 is the Korean index. about 300,000 lots done per day. Compared to the SPI of max 30,000 or HSI of 100,000.


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## white_goodman (24 February 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Prop has a better profit split. Not to mention a lot easier admin.
> 
> K200 is the Korean index. about 300,000 lots done per day. Compared to the SPI of max 30,000 or HSI of 100,000.




Kospi??

i think i read something how they allow things to be traded there that arent traded on other exchanges....

(this is just my subconcious memory talking)


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## Naked shorts (24 February 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> No but wish I did 5 years ago. If I could find one that connects to K200 I would be in there begging tomorrow.
> 
> MR C go ask Max to turn on that switch will ya??




Im pretty sure futex in Singapore is connected. Also the max tax payable on income is 21% in Singapore. none of this 49% crap


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## Trembling Hand (24 February 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Im pretty sure futex in Singapore is connected. Also the max tax payable on income is 21% in Singapore. none of this 49% crap




Stinkers nah thanks. On another note see your about to go from FX to FX Futs. Why not index? Plenty of prop in Oz for that.


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## Naked shorts (25 February 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Stinkers nah thanks. On another note see your about to go from FX to FX Futs. Why not index? Plenty of prop in Oz for that.




FX is open more often, so when im overseas I dont have to stick to my market's opening hours. 
If im having a crap day trading, i dont have to wait until the next day until i can trade again, I can simply go and review my plan without having to worry about getting in before the market closes. 

Its also a bigger market, so when I'm able to manipulate it, I get more respect 


Dont many prop shops in oz do fx futs? Propex has a connection to the CME...

Why would you prefer to go index futs over fx futs?

p.s. why are futex stinkers? I havent seen anything negative about them yet.


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 February 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Why would you prefer to go index futs over fx futs?



Because they are closed more often. 


Naked shorts said:


> p.s. why are futex stinkers? I havent seen anything negative about them yet.



No, Singapore = Stinkers.


----------



## Largesse (25 February 2009)

how are you assessed at a place like propex?
how much do you need to be returning to keep your seat?


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> how are you assessed at a place like propex?
> how much do you need to be returning to keep your seat?




1st one as much as any job is my guess!

2nd profitable after cost. Is the easy answer.


----------



## Naked shorts (25 February 2009)

This is what they told me when I went in for the testing

If your not making enough money, it doesn't make business sense to keep you.

They also said it has taken some traders up to a year to become profitable, other 2 months.

i think they said it costs them $2k per month for your seat in the place (others might want to confirm this)


----------



## Largesse (25 February 2009)

but where do you draw the line at "profitable after cost" ? 

Are you considering the opportunity cost of getting someone better in your seat? 

if you are 'profitable after cost' by like $10k for a year, are they seriously going to keep you?


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 February 2009)

Do you seriously need an answer to that?


----------



## Largesse (25 February 2009)

i'll let you be the judge of that


----------



## Naked shorts (25 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> i'll let you be the judge of that




Propex has plenty of free space in their office. So there isnt, imo, some overwhelming need to kick someone out if they have 1 bad week of trading, but if you are just some stagnant trader there is no point in wasting your time and propex's time.

I dont think you should really be worrying about such things, perhaps something better to worry about is how much money you got to make to be included in the top 30 under 30....


----------



## jersey10 (25 February 2009)

what are the demographics of Propex in Sydney??

what percentage would be male?
what percentage would be under 30?
what percentage would be of non-australian background? (asian or european for example)?
how many people would work there in total?


----------



## Largesse (25 February 2009)

i'd also like to know what they usually eat for breakfast?
are they biased towards toast based breakfasts or towards cereals?
if toast, what do they have on their toast? jams mostly?

my mum always said jam has too much sugar in it


----------



## Naked shorts (25 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> i'd also like to know what they usually eat for breakfast?
> are they biased towards toast based breakfasts or towards cereals?
> if toast, what do they have on their toast? jams mostly?
> 
> my mum always said jam has too much sugar in it




You have got to be sh!tting me.


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 February 2009)

Largesse said:


> i'd also like to know what they usually eat for breakfast?
> are they biased towards toast based breakfasts or towards cereals?
> if toast, what do they have on their toast? jams mostly?
> 
> my mum always said jam has too much sugar in it



Hahahahaha


----------



## RoszkoRR (25 February 2009)

Would anyone perhaps have copy of the Optiver test saved on their comp that'd they'II willing to send me/post up? Their site no longer has the link for it.

Thanks guys


----------



## rossw (26 February 2009)

RoszkoRR said:


> Would anyone perhaps have copy of the Optiver test saved on their comp that'd they'II willing to send me/post up? Their site no longer has the link for it.
> 
> Thanks guys




joking right?

a google should give you an idea of what's in the tests.
quick maths, plenty of sites to practise that on
even if you pass the test, the stuff they are actually testing is used day to day once on the job, so learning quick maths overall is much better than just learning whats in the first test


----------



## rossw (26 February 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> They also said it has taken some traders up to a year to become profitable, other 2 months.




which is why I chose not to take a job there.
was just about to get engaged and couldn't do without 6-12 months of minimal/no income


----------



## white_goodman (26 February 2009)

rossw said:


> which is why I chose not to take a job there.
> was just about to get engaged and couldn't do without 6-12 months of minimal/no income




see that would be ideal for a yuong guy like me with no responsibilities... hmm hopefully theyll accept me for tests in september


----------



## rossw (27 February 2009)

white_goodman said:


> see that would be ideal for a yuong guy like me with no responsibilities... hmm hopefully theyll accept me for tests in september




sounds like a good position to be in. their testing wasn't too hard. easier than with the options guys
if i knew about them a few years prior it would've been nice

i'm not that old but i don't think my new wife fancies being a suga mumma while i earn no income for a while. so sim trading / saving and maybe a bit of dax trading after hours seems to be the plan for now


RoszkoRR, i was probably a bit blunt last night. i just meant that it's better just to have quick maths skills overall than worry about 1 trial test that was previously on their website.


----------



## MRC & Co (27 February 2009)

Places like Optiver, Tibra and Propex are completely different.  

They are looking for completely different qualities I would say.

Just don't go into Optiver telling them you want to trade discretionary and don't go into Propex talking about quant trading and market making.  Neither, will get you anywhere but out the door quicker than you came in.


----------



## RoszkoRR (27 February 2009)

rossw, I understand exactly what you mean. I'm in my final year of uni at the moment and just wanted an idea of what type of maths they were testing, especially since at places like Optiver its a once in a lifetime opportunity so to speak (i.e. either you pass or they'ii tell you never to come back again!)

But I will definitely be honing upon my mental maths and hopefully sit for a test in the second -half of the year, whether it be at Optiver, Propex, LCM and/or Tibra.


----------



## rossw (27 February 2009)

just keep an eye on seek etc for when they're doing testing

if a market maker is any good they'll still be growing now (and hence advertising), even though the liquidity has dried up


----------



## white_goodman (3 March 2009)

what amount of employees do these companies such as propex typically have?

I heard that 500 applied for propex for the February intake...


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 March 2009)

white_goodman said:


> I heard that 500 applied for propex for the February intake...




Ha! everyone wants to be a cowboy


----------



## Stormin_Norman (3 March 2009)

how much is a trader generally given to trade with?


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 March 2009)

Stormin_Norman said:


> how much is a trader generally given to trade with?




Lots. If you can build profit LOTS.


----------



## Stormin_Norman (3 March 2009)

what's lots? a general idea of how much?

be nice to compare it to the offer i received.

how much of the lots do they get to keep?


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 March 2009)

Stormin_Norman said:


> what's lots? a general idea of how much?
> 
> be nice to compare it to the offer i received.
> 
> how much of the lots do they get to keep?




Ok best way is to talk to them. Its not all about the amount traded, as my post #75 tried to explain.

From what I have seen max position size for a live trainee is around $150 a tick to start. From there you need to earn size. 

Prop normally starts at 50/50.


----------



## rossw (3 March 2009)

when i got offered a job there (about 1.5 years ago) it was to start with 2 contracts and 50/50
profitability will get you more size
and consistent profitability will got you a better split


----------



## RobinHood (3 March 2009)

White_Goodman
You heard wrong. 500 was the Aug/Sept 07 intake. That's what the guy who told you meant to say 

I imagine even more than 500 tried for Feb 08!


----------



## Tobi (3 March 2009)

RobinHood said:


> White_Goodman
> You heard wrong. 500 was the Aug/Sept 07 intake. That's what the guy who told you meant to say
> 
> I imagine even more than 500 tried for Feb 08!




Do you mean Aug/Sept 08 and Feb 09?


----------



## RobinHood (3 March 2009)

yeah,
thanks


----------



## white_goodman (3 March 2009)

and how many ppl work there? less than 100? kinda depressing its really the only discretionary trader in Sydney that takes trainees...


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 March 2009)

white_goodman said:


> and how many ppl work there? less than 100? kinda depressing its really the only discretionary trader in Sydney that takes trainees...




About 20 - 30 last time I was there.

There is also Fusion - if you *can* trade index futs


----------



## white_goodman (3 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> About 20 - 30 last time I was there.
> 
> There is also Fusion - if you *can* trade index futs




wow so they have say 1600 people interviewing a year? and they get what like 4 tops?


----------



## Stormin_Norman (4 March 2009)

they can be very selective in their recruitment then!

i dont think i could handle the pressure, nor the egos of my fellow traders. those rooms must stink of testosterone.


----------



## RoszkoRR (4 March 2009)

Does anyone know if Fusion hire graduates?


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 March 2009)

RoszkoRR said:


> Does anyone know if Fusion hire graduates?




not as of mid last year.


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 March 2009)

Hey guys just a warning on what looks to be a very dubious lot. TCA Markets seems to be looking for traders in Oz to join their remote traineeship. Only cost  £3995!! If you are tempted do a google search and read all the bad stories.

It's not traditional prop at best but probably its even worst than that. Be careful.


----------



## white_goodman (10 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Hey guys just a warning on what looks to be a very dubious lot. TCA Markets seems to be looking for traders in Oz to join their remote traineeship. Only cost  £3995!! If you are tempted do a google search and read all the bad stories.
> 
> It's not traditional prop at best but probably its even worst than that. Be careful.




so where do i give my credit card details


----------



## Hopeful (10 March 2009)

white_goodman said:


> so where do i give my credit card details




Hey! Get in line, I was here first.


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## RobinHood (11 March 2009)

was thinking..
tibra, liquid, transmarket - when they are making markets in options where is their edge coming from?

the intuition they develop on top of technical skills and the theoretical understanding. do they also have a price ladder with access to order flow (similar to DOM) ? what do they watch all day when adjusting their offers and bids for whatever product they are trading?

I'm talking about new traders here who have just begun on one product...


btw here is a pic of the TCA markets team (taken from their site):







You know its dodgy when there are random people on the site who look totally unrelated to what is being advertised.


----------



## Naked shorts (11 March 2009)

RobinHood said:


> was thinking..
> tibra, liquid, transmarket - when they are making markets in options where is their edge coming from?




Tibra's edge comes from their popped collars.

As for liquid, I always thought they had some kind of mathematical edge, they say they have been very profitable throughout the gfc. 
check out their website, their traders have 22in screens turned in their side, and if you zoom in, it looks like they are watching dom. No price charts here.

And i dunno about trans


----------



## Naked shorts (11 March 2009)

RobinHood said:


> btw here is a pic of the TCA markets team (taken from their site):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here is the guy






He is an actor, and this picture has been filed under "baby boomer business man".

and here is the girl





She is, "business woman portrait"


----------



## sails (16 March 2009)

Not sure where to put this question but thought worth trying here...



rossw said:


> are you sure they're XJO options?
> 
> there are 2 types of index options in australia.. the XJO's and the AP's
> XJO's are on the ASX and based on the XJO index
> ...




I have been going back through some older threads which I missed last year and found this post:

I thought MMs also used the SPI to hedge XJO ETOs.  If they are hedging with the index - how does that work?   Lepos seem pretty illiquid for MMs to use as a hedge.  
eg today there is a fair bit of XJO call volume (approx 4000) but only 20 lots on the March09 lepo.  There is no further activity in lepos up to June09 in XJO.  Admittedly, some of the XJO option activity today would be rollover, but it doesn't account for all of it.

Not sure if Rossw is still around - if not, can any one else help me out?


----------



## prawn_86 (17 March 2009)

Went to the uni careers fair today and Optiver weren't there. They were there this time last year, so i dunno if its an indication of the economic climate, or if they have enough workers... or both


----------



## white_goodman (17 March 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Went to the uni careers fair today and Optiver weren't there. They were there this time last year, so i dunno if its an indication of the economic climate, or if they have enough workers... or both




I think we have one at UTS soon, think Liquid will be there


----------



## Largesse (18 March 2009)

Optiver were definitely at UniMelb career fair


----------



## RoszkoRR (18 March 2009)

Unsw will be having its career fair on the 25th of March and I know 100% Optiver will be there. I think Liquid Capital may also !


----------



## prawn_86 (18 March 2009)

Obviously they are cutting back their travel budgets then. Would be interested to see if they go to Perth...


----------



## skyQuake (19 March 2009)

Another one worth watching out for. 

http://archimedes-global.com/trainning.html

Also known as AGIL

Pay upfront? Sure why not!


----------



## rossw (23 March 2009)

sails said:


> Not sure if Rossw is still around - if not, can any one else help me out?




i pop by from time to time
whats up?


----------



## sails (23 March 2009)

rossw said:


> i pop by from time to time
> whats up?




Thought you had gone!  Yeah, just a quick query on XJO options if you don't mind 

Do you know if the Aus MMs hedge them with the SPI?
If not, do you mind explaining how they are they hedged?

I always thought they were hedged with the SPI - am I wrong?


----------



## rossw (24 March 2009)

been busy with work so hadnt been on here for a couple of weks

lepos or spi, same thing really
lepos only exist from when asx and sfe were different companies


----------



## sails (24 March 2009)

rossw said:


> been busy with work so hadnt been on here for a couple of weks
> 
> lepos or spi, same thing really
> lepos only exist from when asx and sfe were different companies




No worries!

Perhaps the same thing technically, but spi would win hands down on liquidity.  Only 20 June XJO index lepos traded today (as I type) - nothing in April and May.  And yet hundreds of XJO index options traded.  Wouldn't market makers need better liquidity and tighter spreads than offered by index lepos...


----------



## Robb (26 March 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Went to the uni careers fair today and Optiver weren't there. They were there this time last year, so i dunno if its an indication of the economic climate, or if they have enough workers... or both




Optiver will be at the careers fair in Canberra in a few weeks time, in fact, they are actually giving out free T.shirts. Part of a promotion they are doing with winning a trip...

On another slighly related note, is anyone going to play the tradingplaces game this year?


----------



## RoszkoRR (27 March 2009)

Optiver was at my careers fair on Wed, basically they have a competition running where you can win a trip round the world for you and a friend. However the comp is not random, i think it was based on if you passed their barrier test.

Liquid Capital was there also, they got students involved in a mock open outcry market amongst one another. Prizes included 1st=iphone, 2nd= nintendo wii and 3rd=ipod

And as for Trading Places, yes I think I'ii be registering for a bit of fun!


----------



## RoszkoRR (17 June 2009)

Hi all,

Does anyone know what working at Propex is like? I've spoken to a few friends and they say its quite a dodgy place. They advertise as market makers yet from what i have heard  they purely focus on speculation activities?

Can anyone provide some inside into this as well as some prospects of where a graduate such as myself could apply to in terms of trading/options/derivatives in general (hedge funds incl)?

Thanks


----------



## skyQuake (17 June 2009)

RoszkoRR said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Does anyone know what working at Propex is like? I've spoken to a few friends and they say its quite a dodgy place. They advertise as market makers yet from what i have heard  they purely focus on speculation activities?




Lol who have you been talking to? Top place, not dodgy. Market Makers? Where did you hear that from? They're full prop - 100% spec.



> Can anyone provide some inside into this as well as some prospects of where a graduate such as myself could apply to in terms of trading/options/derivatives in general (hedge funds incl)?
> 
> Thanks




Aus in VERY limited in this regard. Theres the MM firms for oppies which are notoriously hard to get into and have terrible retention rates.
Hedge funds almost don't hire. With them its a matter of [(luck + opportunity)*(ability to recognize opportunity*skill)]^(luck)

gl


----------



## Timmy (17 June 2009)

RoszkoRR said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Does anyone know what working at Propex is like? I've spoken to a few friends and they say its quite a dodgy place. They advertise as market makers yet from what i have heard  they purely focus on speculation activities?
> 
> ...




Sounds like you wouldn't like working at a hedge fund, they tend to focus on speculation activities...


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 July 2009)

Anyone got any leads for Prop in Hong Kong? No BS firms, just genuine prop looking to take profitable traders and giving them a decent line?

Any names? Any leads? Any idea of chances of them sponsoring for visa?


----------



## Naked shorts (1 July 2009)

I know Tibra has a HK office.

http://www.tibracareers.com/about-tibra/

Dont know if it would actually be any good or not.


----------



## Tobi (1 July 2009)

Hi Trembling Hand, what does BS firms mean? 

I think there are only some prop trading firms and hedge funds in HK. They all pay a fixed salary to traders. I can't find any prop shop who offer a profit split there. I don't know why they don't have it HK, maybe the culture there doesn't fit the prop shop model. Otherwise the tax saving while working in HK is huge compare to working in Australia. Not to mention the Internet connectivity is also much faster. 



Trembling Hand said:


> Anyone got any leads for Prop in Hong Kong? No BS firms, just genuine prop looking to take profitable traders and giving them a decent line?
> 
> Any names? Any leads? Any idea of chances of them sponsoring for visa?


----------



## johnnyg (1 July 2009)

Tobi said:


> what does BS firms mean?




I believe Bullsh!t.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 July 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> I know Tibra has a HK office.
> 
> http://www.tibracareers.com/about-tibra/
> 
> Don't know if it would actually be any good or not.



looks mostly like stat arb, not pure discretionary prop.




Tobi said:


> Hi Trembling Hand, what does BS firms mean?



 see above post


Tobi said:


> I think there are only some prop trading firms and hedge funds in HK. They all pay a fixed salary to traders. I can't find any prop shop who offer a profit split there. I don't know why they don't have it HK, maybe the culture there doesn't fit the prop shop model. Otherwise the tax saving while working in HK is huge compare to working in Australia. Not to mention the Internet connectivity is also much faster.




yeah doesn't seem like much there!


----------



## Largesse (2 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> looks mostly like stat arb, not pure discretionary prop.
> 
> 
> see above post
> ...





set up your own


i'll be the coffee guy


----------



## feltonw (11 July 2009)

so hows propex? any feedback from those that are working there? I've only heard of them recently.


----------



## RoszkoRR (2 August 2009)

I understand Optiver recruits gradutes on an on-going basis, however apart from the obvious material provided on their site what are they REALLY looking for?

I understand they have these 3 barrier tests which test your ability to process arithmetic quickly. I think I could pass those with flying colours, but even so maybe that still isnt enough?

Anyone have any thoughts!


----------



## rossw (3 August 2009)

why don't you apply and see?
optiver/tibra/imc/liquid etc all options market makers and all have similar entrance requirements - pass some tests and that gets you in the door. where you are trained up into how they trade/market make

asking on a forum prob not the best way to do it


----------



## Largesse (3 August 2009)

RoszkoRR said:


> I understand Optiver recruits gradutes on an on-going basis, however apart from the obvious material provided on their site what are they REALLY looking for?
> 
> I understand they have these 3 barrier tests which test your ability to process arithmetic quickly. I think I could pass those with flying colours, but even so maybe that still isnt enough?
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts!




They want Distinction averages in a quantitative degree before they will even offer you the test.
Assuming you get offered a test, they want to you have very fast arithmetic and logic skills


----------



## mazzatelli (3 August 2009)

Largesse said:


> They want Distinction averages in a quantitative degree before they will even offer you the test.
> Assuming you get offered a test, they want to you have very fast arithmetic and logic skills




Agree with the D average section. 
I thought I would clarify - Quantitative Finance is not a requirement for the MM's, but a degree in Commerce or Mathematics is essential


----------



## Largesse (3 August 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> Agree with the D average section.
> I thought I would clarify - Quantitative Finance is not a requirement for the MM's, but a degree in Commerce or Mathematics is essential




yeh, thanks for clarifying, what I meant was they want you to have completed a degree that requires you to work with numbers, not letters 

so taking a management or marketing stream in commerce won't do you much good


----------



## RoszkoRR (3 August 2009)

Largesse said:


> They want Distinction averages in a quantitative degree before they will even offer you the test.
> Assuming you get offered a test, they want to you have very fast arithmetic and logic skills




In my final year at uni atm doing actuarial/economics and finance. I have a D ave in Economics and Finance so should be able to sit the tests in a few months time. Just brushing up on my technicals in the mean-time....thanks for the comments anyways guys, was hoping maybe someone here had some experience with them.


----------



## skyQuake (3 August 2009)

Some advice here: *you gotta love the maths*. If you don't they will sniff you out and boot you. Be it in the interview or 6 months later.

_Its not a trading role.
_
if you can't do the maths with minimal study (brushing up on speed arithmetics is ok)  chances are its not the place for you.
It has low retention rates and fairly high churn, which kinda justifies its pay structure and progression.
Remember they expect the best in their field, and if you do get in you'll work alongside them. Having said that the skills are not that transferable.


----------



## RoszkoRR (3 August 2009)

skyQuake said:


> Some advice here: *you gotta love the maths*. If you don't they will sniff you out and boot you. Be it in the interview or 6 months later.
> 
> _Its not a trading role.
> _
> ...




I completely agree with you. Maths has formed much of my education so far, from 4u maths in high school to actuarial studies now...its definitely an area that  i am passionate about and enjoy. But the conventional actuarial role is something that does not appeal to me, very bland work soley focusing soley on optimization problems on a day-to-day basis.


----------



## mazzatelli (3 August 2009)

Largesse said:


> yeh, thanks for clarifying, what I meant was they want you to have completed a degree that requires you to work with numbers, not letters
> 
> so taking a management or marketing stream in commerce won't do you much good




LOL looks like I wasn't clear enough
Good points about mgmt and marketing [as if you would want to be an MM after seeing the chicks in marketing]



skyQuake said:


> Some advice here: *you gotta love the maths*. If you don't they will sniff you out and boot you. Be it in the interview or 6 months later.




Like the others have said, you can love the maths, but you have to be quick.
Stochastic calculus and PDE don't help for MM's LOL

EDIT: Just saw your post, you should look for a quant trading role


----------



## Naked shorts (7 August 2009)

RobinHood said:


> was thinking..
> tibra, liquid, transmarket - when they are making markets in options where is their edge coming from?




Dunno why, but have been thinking about this point recently.

If their edge is purely mathematical or derived from technology, they wouldn't need traders to sit in front of screens, some algo would do it all.

So perhaps their biggest edge comes from pulling liquidity at certain points...knowing when to make a market and when not to. This would be based on the emotions of other traders, the kind of thing a computer cannot predict and adapt to easily.


----------



## skyQuake (7 August 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Dunno why, but have been thinking about this point recently.
> 
> If their edge is purely mathematical or derived from technology, they wouldn't need traders to sit in front of screens, some algo would do it all.
> 
> So perhaps their biggest edge comes from pulling liquidity at certain points...knowing when to make a market and when not to. This would be based on the emotions of other traders, the kind of thing a computer cannot predict and adapt to easily.




In their game, the biggest edge is speed. Optiver currently fighting with Tibra over properitary software disputes in the courts... sh*tfest!


----------



## Naked shorts (7 August 2009)

skyQuake said:


> In their game, the biggest edge is speed. Optiver currently fighting with Tibra over properitary software disputes in the courts... sh*tfest!




Then what is the purpose of having traders sit in front of screens? How is the adaptability and initiative of a human adding value?


----------



## Timmy (7 August 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Then what is the purpose of having traders sit in front of screens? How is the adaptability and initiative of a human adding value?




You need someone to turn the computer on.


----------



## white_goodman (8 September 2009)

this is hilarious


----------



## Trembling Hand (8 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> this is hilarious




Yeah very good.


----------



## skyQuake (8 September 2009)

Timmy said:


> You need someone to turn the computer on.




or someone to turn it off when the marketmaking algos become self aware.


----------



## white_goodman (8 September 2009)

skyQuake said:


> or someone to turn it off when the marketmaking algos become self aware.




have they been programmed to follow the 3 laws of robotics?


----------



## Timmy (8 September 2009)

skyQuake said:


> when the marketmaking algos become self aware.




That's when the algos join forums and start bagging out other algos ("Ya' high latency, mean reverting, POS")

ps - love the video thanks White!


----------



## white_goodman (15 October 2009)

Here's one to add to the list:

http://www.silkroadcapital.com.au/

looks like a dsicretionary firm similar to Propex...


----------



## Naked shorts (15 October 2009)

white_goodman said:


> Here's one to add to the list:
> 
> http://www.silkroadcapital.com.au/
> 
> looks like a dsicretionary firm similar to Propex...




Found this
http://twitter.com/silkroadcapital

Wonder if its the same people. They are following Britney Spears


----------



## Timmy (15 October 2009)

Here is a list of prop firms on a wider scale than just Australia.  From 2007, so might be a bit outdated.

List of Proprietary Trading Firms

I have had problems getting that page to load sometimes, here is the Google cached version as well:

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cach...ading-firms-735.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

&DYOR


----------



## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

A nice little spiel on the failures of prop traders:

http://www.smbtraining.com/blog/the-failure-rate-of-a-proprietary-trader


----------



## white_goodman (30 January 2010)

big fan of the smb blog, is there any nws on when Bellas book is out?


----------



## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> A nice little spiel on the failures of prop traders:
> 
> http://www.smbtraining.com/blog/the-failure-rate-of-a-proprietary-trader




"Prop traders" is a very very broad category.  

But can someone pls copy and paste what's on the link onto this thread?  It won't work on my computer...........

BTW, who is 'Bella' White?


----------



## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

MRC & Co said:


> "Prop traders" is a very very broad category.
> 
> But can someone pls copy and paste what's on the link onto this thread?  It won't work on my computer...........
> 
> BTW, who is 'Bella' White?




Ok, got it, thx TH.


----------



## white_goodman (30 January 2010)

MRC & Co said:


> "Prop traders" is a very very broad category.
> 
> But can someone pls copy and paste what's on the link onto this thread?  It won't work on my computer...........
> 
> BTW, who is 'Bella' White?




Hes the MD of SMB im prety sure, hes in the midst of writing a book "way of the prop trader" or something like that


----------



## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

white_goodman said:


> Hes the MD of SMB im prety sure, hes in the midst of writing a book "way of the prop trader" or something like that




Bella is a he?  Lol, thought that was a chicks name.

Ok, cool, thx.


----------



## SMB Capital (30 January 2010)

Mike Bellafiore's (Bella) book One Good Trade: Inside the Highly Competitive World of Proprietary Trading will be out this August.  Thxs for asking.


----------



## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

SMB Capital said:


> Mike Bellafiore's (Bella) book One Good Trade: Inside the Highly Competitive World of Proprietary Trading will be out this August.  Thxs for asking.




Ah, now I get the name!  

A book from an actual trader, should be interesting!  Don't see too many of them around, generally they talk about 'triangle breakouts' and 'H&S' etc 

I thought the same Largesse, incredible response time!


----------



## Largesse (30 January 2010)

SMB Capital said:


> Mike Bellafiore's (Bella) book One Good Trade: Inside the Highly Competitive World of Proprietary Trading will be out this August.  Thxs for asking.





impressive response time


----------



## zbb (15 February 2010)

hey d'ya know if you ken switch  from optiver to a hedge fund? i don't mean to trade, but to grind out numbers etc...


----------



## vivkom (4 March 2010)

Hey Guys
I am new in Sydney, just moved in two weeks back. 
I am lloking for a job in prop trading. I have experience in trading. Can anyone tell me some more names of prop shops in sydney.
Just heard of Tibra, Optiver, Propex and Silkroadcapiltal
Cant find fusion derivatives and Liquid crapital.

Thanks
Viv


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 March 2010)

vivkom said:


> Hey Guys
> I am new in Sydney, just moved in two weeks back.
> I am lloking for a job in prop trading. I have experience in trading. Can anyone tell me some more names of prop shops in sydney.
> Just heard of Tibra, Optiver, Propex and Silkroadcapiltal
> ...




Fusion have changed their name to Aliom. here a retail part of the biz,

http://www.aliom.com.au/

And that about it as far as you go with Sydney. Have you been a prop trader are looking o become one?


----------



## vivkom (4 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Fusion have changed their name to Aliom. here a retail part of the biz,
> 
> http://www.aliom.com.au/
> 
> And that about it as far as you go with Sydney. Have you been a prop trader are looking o become one?




Hey TH
Thanks for the post.
I have been trading on my own for last two years in Indian Stock Exchange (NSE and BSE). Willing to join some trading firm. I have moved to sydney as it is emerging market for prop traders. Not sure if firms here trade in Indian markets or not?

thanks
viv


----------



## vivkom (14 March 2010)

Hey guys
I am exploring opportunities in prop trading. I want to know the working model of  prop shops .. so they share profit .. but what about the loss ???? do they share it or trader has to bear that all ??

thanks
viv


----------



## Largesse (14 March 2010)

You chop the profit with the firm, and wear 100% of the loss if you lose.


----------



## Trembling Hand (16 March 2010)

Here is a newie, for me anyway.

http://seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=81&PageNumber=1&JobID=16944620&cid


----------



## Naked shorts (16 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Here is a newie, for me anyway.
> 
> http://seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=81&PageNumber=1&JobID=16944620&cid




Wow, its rare to see an ad worded like that.... to bad its in the middle of no where.


----------



## Trembling Hand (16 March 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> Wow, its rare to see an ad worded like that.... to bad its in the middle of no where.




You like these two requirements,


Has the ego to become a great trader
Has the humility to stay a great trader

 Whats ego got to do with it.......haha!!


----------



## Timmy (16 March 2010)

West Auckland.

That would be Bondi, right?


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

And another one. This time from Perth. Seems equity focuses rather than futs. Looks like a bit of an industry popping up in Oz.

http://www.gryphonwealth.com.au


----------



## Naked shorts (17 March 2010)

Find any in honkers yet?


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> Find any in honkers yet?




Stopped looking. I will be setting one up myself if I decide to move there.


----------



## Naked shorts (17 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Stopped looking. I will be setting one up myself if I decide to move there.




Whats holding you back?


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> Whats holding you back?




The tug between my wallet and my lungs,


----------



## Naked shorts (17 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> The tug between my wallet and my lungs,




holy sh*t hahaha fu*k that lol!


----------



## prawn_86 (17 March 2010)

Looking out across the city from the 40th floor in Sydney and you can see a nice smog haze also on a sunny day.

**** of a city :


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

prawn_86 said:


> Looking out across the city from the 40th floor in Sydney and you can see a nice smog haze also on a sunny day.
> 
> **** of a city :




Yes but its rarely so thick and constant. As well as there is plenty of space and fresh air 1 hour out of the city. Not so in Honkers.


----------



## skyQuake (17 March 2010)

Is the photo recent? I didn't know its become so bad now, that looks more like mainland china 

Tug between ur wallet and lungs? Well with a large enough wallet, you can buy yourself a pair of shiny new lungs


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

That was 2 years ago.



> Air pollution in Hong Kong is considered a serious problem. It affects flora and fauna in the area, and the health of residents living there. Visibility is currently less than eight kilometers for 30% of the year. Cases of asthma and bronchial infections have soared in recent years due to reduced air quality.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_Hong_Kong

Maybe Japan in the snow would be the place. Good place to hide all the bodies of the blown up traders as well.


----------



## skyQuake (17 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> That was 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_Hong_Kong
> ...




Is there a rebate thing going on? Like with recycling bottles to get 10c ?

-------------------------------------

More importantly, how is the connection speed? Is it markedly less than Aus?


----------



## sleepy (17 March 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Stopped looking. I will be setting one up myself if I decide to move there.




Hi TH,

Why does it have to be Hong Kong?
Couldnt you do something similar anywhere in the world or is is it because of Regs/Time Zone/Snow.... etc

sleepy


----------



## Largesse (17 March 2010)

latency


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 March 2010)

Yep latency. But also opportunity, you have to go where you see the growth & size. 

Also a lot easier becoming an exchange member while you are based in the country, especially Honkers.

And of course there is always the outlier that China has just announced they are going to let futs to be traded over their equities.


----------



## Naked shorts (16 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> And of course there is always the outlier that China has just announced they are going to let futs to be traded over their equities.




mmmmhmmm

http://cmegroup.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3011



> Leo Melamed, chairman emeritus, CME Group, has been honored with an invitation to represent the exchange at the historic ceremonies for the launch of the CSI 300 Index futures by the China Financial Futures Exchange (CFFEX).
> 
> The ceremonies will be held on Friday, April 16, 2010 in Pudong, Shanghai, beginning at 8:40 a.m.


----------



## DeCal (4 May 2010)

For those interested in learning more about trading & market making Student 2 Trader have just released an *exclusive interview with Tibra Capital*.

The interview is with a senior trader and is VERY informative, insightful and a fantastic read.

The interview can be viewed here: http://student2trader.com/trader_interviews

Enjoy the read!

Kind regards
Damon | Student 2 Trader Cofounder


----------



## vivkom (16 June 2010)

Hi Guys
I have been trying to get through in one of prop shops in sydney. I have recently moved here. Does one need to have a financial qualification to get into prop trading. I am an engineer and have been trading on my own for last 2 years.


----------



## Trembling Hand (16 June 2010)

vivkom said:


> Hi Guys
> I have been trying to get through in one of prop shops in sydney. I have recently moved here. Does one need to have a financial qualification to get into prop trading. I am an engineer and have been trading on my own for last 2 years.




What sort of trading? prop shops are interested in intraday futures trading. If you have a few years record of that they would be interested in seeing your results. If not then one way in would be to apply for Propex's 6 monthly trainee program.


----------



## vivkom (16 June 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> What sort of trading? prop shops are interested in intraday futures trading. If you have a few years record of that they would be interested in seeing your results. If not then one way in would be to apply for Propex's 6 monthly trainee program.




Hi TH
I have been trading index futures both intraday and positional. Today I applied for Propex Trainee propgram which they will start in July 2010. 
You seems to be a Prop trader , do you mind telling me what kind of monthly return prop firms are looking for.


----------



## hooikk (18 June 2010)

vivkom said:


> Hi TH
> I have been trading index futures both intraday and positional. Today I applied for Propex Trainee propgram which they will start in July 2010.
> You seems to be a Prop trader , do you mind telling me what kind of monthly return prop firms are looking for.




I think they start advertising/interviewing for applicants in July (but people can apply via their website) but the program starts in September.

I'm going to appy for a position as well, but need to rewrite my resume first. G'luck to both of us


----------



## Trembling Hand (18 June 2010)

vivkom said:


> do you mind telling me what kind of monthly return prop firms are looking for.




Its not so much the return that they base their performance on. They don't want to know you make 10% per month because that probably means you are just a leveraged up nut.

I would frame my performance on a risk adjusted basis. If your normal position sizing is 2 contracts and you average 150 ticks a week then you would say you're good for 15 ticks per contract traded per day.

I cannot talk for them but performance like 15 ticks per day per contract looks pretty good if your trading 20 lots


----------



## vivkom (18 June 2010)

hooikk said:


> I think they start advertising/interviewing for applicants in July (but people can apply via their website) but the program starts in September.
> 
> I'm going to appy for a position as well, but need to rewrite my resume first. G'luck to both of us




Wish you luck.


----------



## vivkom (28 June 2010)

Atlantic Trading Asia another prop shop in Sydney. But no information available online .. cant even find a website. 
Anyone knows about it.


----------



## vivkom (28 June 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Its not so much the return that they base their performance on. They don't want to know you make 10% per month because that probably means you are just a leveraged up nut.
> 
> I would frame my performance on a risk adjusted basis. If your normal position sizing is 2 contracts and you average 150 ticks a week then you would say you're good for 15 ticks per contract traded per day.
> 
> I cannot talk for them but performance like 15 ticks per day per contract looks pretty good if your trading 20 lots




Hi TH
thanks for the information.
But thats tricky isn't it, I can make 15 ticks per contract per day(I trade NSE Nifty index future) while I am trading 2-3 lots based on my capital capacity; but replicating the same on 20 lots will need somewhat different mindset


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 July 2010)

How are you guys going at Propex now? 

Any new firms that are similar to Propex? I'm interested in joining one if I can, see if its possible for me or not, but probably need to be an ex-brain surgeon with 3 briefcases full of certificates to show how intelligent you are to get into any of these firms right? 

Doesn't necessarily have to be in Aus either if anyone knows of any, interested in intra-day futs trading(reading the order book etc), I know a few guys who work at Futex in London and it sounds excellent, but as I said they probably wouldn't take a determined young no-body like me I guess, plus the cost of living in London wouldn't be ideal I would imagine 

Also, do they pay you while you train? Or do you somehow have to move to a different city, find a job, find a place to live, pay rent and expenses AND be in there everyday for them to teach you how to trade? I understand Propex pay 1K a month or something? 

I'm just curious to the possibilities at this stage


----------



## Manifest (23 July 2010)

yeh i'd be interested to know how you guys are going too....
I just received an invite to attend the aptitude test next week for propex. any one else here going??


----------



## supermatt (10 August 2010)

any updates on how the apt test went at propex?


----------



## Manifest (10 August 2010)

> supermatt
> Re: Prop Shops in Australia
> any updates on how the apt test went at propex?




No good for me mate. I was a touch below cut off marks for maths and financial markets section. Wish I had more time to prepare.They have an online course coming out in a couple of weeks which is a scaled down version of their in house training. might look into that.


----------



## RobinHood (8 September 2010)

Hi,
Is anyone here working at an options market making firm? SIG or Optiver?

I'm currently majoring in econometrics/stats at Monash and seeking some advice on entry ...


----------



## mazzatelli (8 September 2010)

RobinHood said:


> Hi,
> Is anyone here working at an options market making firm? SIG or Optiver?
> 
> I'm currently majoring in econometrics/stats at Monash and seeking some advice on entry ...




For SIG - they love poker. Brush up on probability questions [Bayes etc.] and brainteasers [game theory, recursive plays etc] - initial interviews are all based on these.


----------



## spibok (2 February 2011)

http://www.gfin.com.au/

this threads been quiet for a bit but thought i would throw this out there. Anyone know anything about them?


----------



## MeekTrader (11 February 2011)

No but I don't know if the website offers alot of confidence...


----------



## Naked shorts (12 February 2011)

MeekTrader said:


> No but I don't know if the website offers alot of confidence...




agreeed


----------



## Novice1 (6 October 2011)

Hi,

Just wanted to see if anyone was interested in actually joining a prop trading firm in Melbourne?

Please let me know so we can see what the real interest is.

As you may be aware that most prop desks are in Sydney, lets see if there is enough interest in Melbourne?

Thanks


----------



## RobinHood (28 December 2011)

for a a uni student interested in trafigura , vitol etc (trading physicals)

transfer to chemical engineering or continue maths/stats ... ? can I learn all I need about the physicals by starting from the bottom with just a maths degree?

...if you read this m i wanted to send you an update!


----------



## Trembling Hand (19 May 2012)

Two trainee jobs on offer for prop shops in Sydney, Gold coast and Singers,

http://www.seek.com.au/job/22332739?cid




http://www.seek.com.au/job/22332296?


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

I have moved the discussion from SKC's thread here
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24844



Trembling Hand said:


> I have found the way to go. I now have ZERO money in, yet leveraged up 100 times. Prop trading. OPM
> 
> Heaven = no risk + more gain.






craft said:


> Good for you TH but why would anybody provide that incentive package? Do they have other mechanisms in place for controlling the risks you take with their money?






Trembling Hand said:


> Risk control is their business. Why they provide it? Because they get a ride on the back of very profitable traders while cutting duds early. Think about it this way; 1 good trader who works up to swinging a good size will pay for 20 duds that start with the minimum size and get cut early. They trade traders like traders trade the market.





craft said:


> Do they control the risk you take other than through the size of capital allocated.  i.e a micro level of risk control over what you do day to day?
> 
> Once you’ve earned a sizable capital allocation – what’s to stop you upping your risk profile – which is the logical thing to do when there is no downside – I suppose you would be turfed out on your ear if you blew up – but they would still have a major loss and you would still have your share of all those earlier risks that went your way. (sounds strangely familiar)
> 
> ...




Will come back later today. Bit busy at the mo.   :bricks1:


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

> Do they control the risk you take other than through the size of capital allocated. i.e a micro level of risk control over what you do day to day?




Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.



> Once you’ve earned a sizable capital allocation – what’s to stop you upping your risk profile – which is the logical thing to do when there is no downside – I suppose you would be turfed out on your ear if you blew up – but they would still have a major loss and you would still have your share of all those earlier risks that went your way. (sounds strangely familiar)



 You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.



> The incentive structure doesn’t make sense to me – but finding the best traders to trade the capital does.



 It does when they themselves have very little risk exposure to new traders compared to experienced ones who make an annual wage in a day.



> Do you personally trade any different because you have no risk? or is the risk of losing access to the their capital the risk? or is the incentive structure not an issue because they micro control the risk you take?



 I'm trading crap at the moment just because of the performance pressure of extra size. I'm actually more risk adverse! Which is annoying me!


----------



## tech/a (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.
> 
> You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.
> 
> ...




T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.

I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

TH, working for yourself, what would be your % annual return on total capital over the last few years?


----------



## CanOz (25 May 2012)

tech/a said:


> T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.
> 
> I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
> So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
> wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?




If that was the case then why would Prop Shops even exist?

Personally i think its better to play golf with people better than you, it holds you accountable and the competitiveness sharpens the focus and hones the skills. 

IMO, this would be similar, and why many would go with the shops, you have got to be accountable to someone other than yourself for this too. Plus, whether or not you are in their office or not, you are still competing against their traders for performance stats. 

CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

tech/a said:


> T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.
> 
> I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
> So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
> wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?




Nope. I get to size up to levels that are just not possible when trading your own account. The chance to be a real player :grinsking

The other thing is there is no account drag from tax, draw down, and living expenses etc. Hugely underestimated by dreamers who one day hope to trade fulltime.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> TH, working for yourself, what would be your % annual return on total capital over the last few years?




Come on!!  You can't tell everyone how brilliant a trader you are and then not divulge this!  There are others who might also want to try the prop shop experience.


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Come on!!  You can't tell everyone how brilliant a trader you are and then not divulge this!  There are others who might also want to try the prop shop experience.




Whats it to do with prop shops? They couldn't give a rats **** about % return. 

If you go to a prop shop and quote % return they'll know you're a dreamer.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Whats it to do with prop shops? They couldn't give a rats **** about % return.
> 
> If you go to a prop shop and quote % return they'll know your a dreamer.




lol


----------



## craft (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.
> 
> You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.
> 
> ...





If it was my equity being traded – it would be the experienced ones who had just about had enough and knew how to utilise a no downside all upside risk incentive that I would worry about.

I’ve heard of some dodgy prop shops that are more about selling training/software etc but I would think if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and find the good ones and get a zero risk/profit share setup then why wouldn’t you try your hand if that is the sort of trading you are good at?

Thanks for sharing – fascinating.


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> lol




Thus proving my point, retail thinks % return is _*the *_metric. Prop will not.


----------



## skc (25 May 2012)

craft said:


> If it was my equity being traded – it would be the experienced ones who had just about had enough and knew how to utilise a no downside all upside risk incentive that I would worry about.
> 
> I’ve heard of some dodgy prop shops that are more about selling training/software etc but I would think if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and find the good ones and get a zero risk/profit share setup then why wouldn’t you try your hand if that is the sort of trading you are good at?
> 
> Thanks for sharing – fascinating.




The skewed nature of the reward/risk is not dis-similar to problems in investment banks, originator of sub-prime loans, real estate agents, corporate CEOs with their option packages etc etc.

In fact - self funded traders, business owners and professional gamblers are the only ones whose incentives are directly linked to risk.


----------



## craft (25 May 2012)

skc said:


> The skewed nature of the reward/risk is not dis-similar to problems in investment banks, originator of sub-prime loans, real estate agents, corporate CEOs with their option packages etc etc.




Tell me about it - where's the soap box. Maybe I'm just pissed because my reward is linked to risk.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Thus proving my point, retail thinks % return is _*the *_metric. Prop will not.




Trembler you're cracking me up today! 

Prop shop will look at draw downs, frequency of trades, Sharpe, good money management, etc etc.  And then if you have that under control, _what they really want to know is can you make them money_, which is what % return is, yep?


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> And then if you have that under control, _what they really want to know is can you make them money_, which is what % return is, yep?




No sorry you are very wrong. They do NOT look at return or profitability in a % of account capital. For friggin obvious reasons!!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> No sorry you are very wrong. They do NOT look at return or profitability in a % of account capital. For friggin obvious reasons!!




Well it's not friggin' obvious to me!  Perhaps I'll apply to Propex and tell them I lost 70% of my account last year.  That should get me a seat next to yours truly.  We can be trading buddies.


----------



## CanOz (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> No sorry you are very wrong. They do NOT look at return or profitability in a % of account capital. For friggin obvious reasons!!





I bet they must care how unprofitable you are though, and what happens when are unprofitable.

CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Well it's not friggin' obvious to me!  Perhaps I'll apply to Propex and tell them I lost 70% of my account last year.  That should get me a seat next to yours truly.  We can be trading buddies.




Ok I'll spell it out for you. They want traders who can* size up*, are* active* and can survive long term by controlling* their own risk*. 

I've spoken seriously to three different ones. Never did they ask "what % return did you make the last......"

% return is nonsense when they are wanting you to go from 2 lots to 100!!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Ok I'll spell it out for you. They want traders who can* size up*, are* active* and can survive long term by controlling* their own risk*.




Cool.  I can do those three things quite well.  Not sure if I'll make any money for the company, however.  Do I still get a share of the profits?


----------



## sinner (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Trembler you're cracking me up today!
> 
> Prop shop will look at draw downs, frequency of trades, Sharpe, good money management, etc etc.  And then if you have that under control, _what they really want to know is can you make them money_, which is what % return is, yep?




GB, for the record, Sharpe is a measure of returns normalised over time and variance. That means of course that nobody would be examining TH's Sharpe ratio, saying "everything looks under control here, now tell me what your % return was."

Having spoken to a few traders, my understanding is that return profiles are actually not dissimilar between say a daily swing trader and an intraday trader (hinging largely on cyclical vol), it's the massively lowered variance that makes the difference between a Sharpe ratio of 1.5-2 and one of 6. 

If all Propex wanted was a bunch of algos with a nice % return then they would have just payed some quants to make them. What they want is exposure to traders who are: scalable, dynamic and robust. They let the market separate the high Sharpe traders from the dead wood.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

I think of Sharpe as a measure of risk-adjusted return, the higher the number the better.

Surely an algo can be scalable, dynamic and robust?  They want people who make money, which is why I asked how much TH makes.  Why so complicated with everything?


----------



## tech/a (25 May 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. I get to size up to levels that are just not possible when trading your own account. The chance to be a real player :grinsking
> 
> *The other thing is there is no account drag from tax, draw down, and living expenses etc. Hugely underestimated by dreamers who one day hope to trade fulltime*.






> *% return is nonsense when they are wanting you to go from 2 lots to 100!! *




And there it is RIGHT THERE.

And for those trading $5000 of stock
Try it with $500K.---of your money.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2012)

tech/a said:


> And there it is RIGHT THERE.
> 
> And for those trading $5000 of stock
> Try it with $500K.---of your money.




Are you saying psychological factors come into play?  Most of your Aussie stock trades are $5000 lots if I remember correctly?


----------



## havaiana (25 May 2012)

Is this the new breed of prop shop or a scam?

pulsarcap
topsteptrader


----------



## skc (25 May 2012)

sinner said:


> Having spoken to a few traders, my understanding is that return profiles are actually not dissimilar between say a daily swing trader and an intraday trader (hinging largely on cyclical vol), it's the massively lowered variance that makes the difference between a Sharpe ratio of 1.5-2 and one of 6.




What's a good Sharpe ratio? I read that S&P500 long term Sharpe is only 0.4. Does that mean a Sharpe of 2-3 is pretty decent?


----------



## Trembling Hand (25 May 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Are you saying psychological factors come into play?  Most of your Aussie stock trades are $5000 lots if I remember correctly?




Geesus!! what you want my last 5 years tax return!!


----------



## Neutral (2 June 2012)

Are there any Prop shops in Melbourne? I don't want to move to Sydney the coffee is lousy


----------



## sinner (2 June 2012)

skc said:


> What's a good Sharpe ratio? I read that S&P500 long term Sharpe is only 0.4. Does that mean a Sharpe of 2-3 is pretty decent?




Yep, 2-3 is quite good. 

I believe 0.7 is the "benchmark" for finding trading systems with potential. e.g. if you code a super simple system like 30-50 day breakouts 30-50 day time exit and ran it across a basket of futs, the markets/systems which naturally give a Sharpe of >0.7 would be good candidates for trend following systems.


----------



## SuperGlue (2 June 2012)

Neutral said:


> Are there any Prop shops in Melbourne? I don't want to move to Sydney the coffee is lousy




The money is in coffee..............


----------



## skc (2 June 2012)

sinner said:


> Yep, 2-3 is quite good.
> 
> I believe 0.7 is the "benchmark" for finding trading systems with potential. e.g. if you code a super simple system like 30-50 day breakouts 30-50 day time exit and ran it across a basket of futs, the markets/systems which naturally give a Sharpe of >0.7 would be good candidates for trend following systems.




I read somewhere that any system that short volatility is going have a high Sharpe. It will work consistently well for some time... Until it doesn't work. Sort of like the quants model of subprime securities before they go bust. Or shorting the lotto numbers.

One example i can think of is simply long bank hybrids. You have a locked in 200bps outperformance against risk free bonds, with virtually zero volatility in the last 36 months. So you get a great Sharpe ratio. But clearly if things were to go wrong they'd go pretty wrong. Plus it is unlikely you can take that strategy to the prop shops!


----------



## amacdo23 (24 June 2012)

Thought this might be the appropriate thread to post upon given the topic

stumbled across this the other day.
http://www.seek.com.au/Job/22449633/?cid=emailafriend

anyone dealt/ had any experience with Aliom before?


----------



## Trembling Hand (24 June 2012)

amacdo23 said:


> anyone dealt/ had any experience with Aliom before?




Yep I know a few guys there. Good people.


----------



## stock nub (24 June 2012)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned these guys yet.

Amscot which is the online broking division of State One Stock Broking have a equities prop trading desk.

They have offices in Perth and Sydney. Their online broking also pretty much blows everyone else out of the water price wise especially for day traders.

https://www.amscot.com.au/about/opportunities.aspx


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 July 2012)

Ok all you underfunded but excellent ASX traders now there is no excuse not to have that DB9 by the end of the year,




http://www.seek.com.au/job/22677694


----------



## CanOz (11 July 2012)

TH, does the Propex employ these traders for long only? OR can they short?

CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> TH, does the Propex employ these traders for long only? OR can they short?
> 
> CanOz




Both ways is my guess, but I actually have no idea. Will find out and get back later.


----------



## CanOz (11 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Both ways is my guess, but I actually have no idea. Will find out and get back later.




Thanks, just curious as i wouldn't have thought there to be too many ASX equity traders in a market where you can only trade in one direction

CanOz


----------



## skc (11 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Ok all you underfunded but excellent ASX traders now there is no excuse not to have that DB9 by the end of the year,
> 
> View attachment 47844
> 
> ...




TH is this the firm you are with at the moment? or you can't disclose?


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 July 2012)

skc said:


> TH is this the firm you are with at the moment? or you can't disclose?




Yep same.


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (11 July 2012)

Thanks for posting TH. I would love to land a role like that, but lack the 2+ years day trading. I have 4+ in longer trading (2-12 week holing) but i imagine thats not the experience they're after.

Oh well, will keep day trading overseas markets to get the experience. 

Good luck to anyone applying and if you do get in you need to report back on what TH looks like in real life ;P


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> if you do get in you need to report back on what TH looks like in real life ;P




Like this,


----------



## CanOz (11 July 2012)

LOL! I see things have taken a turn for the worse since the snowboarding photos!!

Bloody Prop shops!

CanOz


----------



## CanOz (22 September 2012)

Did anyone take up that last offer from Propex?

CanOz


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (22 September 2012)

I did. Haven't heard of any others on the forum yet


----------



## CanOz (22 September 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> I did. Haven't heard of any others on the forum yet




Really, how did you go?

CanOz


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (23 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> Really, how did you go?
> 
> CanOz




I was accepted into their 4 week online trial in October. If that goes well then I get invited to trade at their Sydney office for a few months on a simulator. If I go well there I get offered a position.

Right now they're sending me lots of material about futures trading and markets which I have to go throug before the trial starts.


----------



## havaiana (4 October 2012)

I did the online trainee course with propex in July.

I didn't make the cut to trade inhouse in Sydney, but was definitely worth the experience. Nothing groundbreaking in the training but just helps to show you the real nuts and bolts of what real traders do and dispel alot of the myths. 

My trading has come a long way since (largely due to the course) and have just started trading full time from home.

Anyone thinking seriously about a trading career i definitely recommend the prop trading route. 

Also want to note that anyone who thinks they can work a fulltime job and do the course at the same time is going to be in for an extremely tiring and stressful month.


----------



## CanOz (4 October 2012)

havaiana said:


> I did the online trainee course with propex in July.
> 
> I didn't make the cut to trade inhouse in Sydney, but was definitely worth the experience. Nothing groundbreaking in the training but just helps to show you the real nuts and bolts of what real traders do and dispel alot of the myths.
> 
> ...




So what were some of your key learning outcomes?


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 October 2012)

CanOz said:


> So what were some of your key learning outcomes?




My guess is that there isn't much to learn but you do have to practise what you know.

That was pretty much my conclusion from spending a few weeks there back in the dark ages (2006 I think).


----------



## havaiana (4 October 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> My guess is that there isn't much to learn but you do have to practise what you know.
> 
> That was pretty much my conclusion from spending a few weeks there back in the dark ages (2006 I think).




Exactly. I learned more by what wasn't in the course than by what was in it. It was more a confidence builder which led me to stop wasting time on a endless mission to find the "secret" and just use what i have already learned over the last few years.

The course was actually very short and basic, just some basic reading (nothing anyone who has been into markets for a couple of years wont already know) and a week of drills.

The rest of the month sim trading. Alot of prop shops seem to use similar drill methods. I wont give away propex's but there is a basic rundown of what one does here:

http://www.jigsawtrading.com/lessons/lesson11.html

Edit: just start from this bit :

"So how is this actually done? At the prop shops, they have a mentor that will set you exercises. Examples of the exercises are:
Stay in the market all day. You cannot close trades, only reverse them. The idea of course is that you get in tune with the flow of the market."


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (5 October 2012)

Agree about the stress of two jobs. I'm mentally exhausted every time my head hits the pillow. 

That being said, agree with T/H it's more about practicing what you know. You'd get killed if you hadn't done any trading before.


----------



## aussiefx (23 October 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Agree about the stress of two jobs. I'm mentally exhausted every time my head hits the pillow.
> 
> That being said, agree with T/H it's more about practicing what you know. You'd get killed if you hadn't done any trading before.




Not true for me. Before Sept i'd never touched futures before. I have traded spot FX for 4 years and have used my knowledge and learned as much as possible to try and trade futures. It's worked well and will be doing the in house training soon.


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (24 October 2012)

aussiefx said:


> Not true for me. Before Sept i'd never touched futures before. I have traded spot FX for 4 years and have used my knowledge and learned as much as possible to try and trade futures. It's worked well and will be doing the in house training soon.




I never said anything about having to have experience in futures trading specifically  I meant that if you've never traded before you'd be in trouble - can be any instrument. Trading concepts are generally the same across all markets you just need to adjust your approach, understand what moves your market, understand your markets behaviour, etc. 

We've got fools in the session who have not traded once - not even practicing on a simulator before the monthly session starts. Then they ask questions like "ive closed all my trades yet my P&L is still fluctuating, why?" Or, "how do i tell how many contracts i have open?" mind you this is a few days into the trial.

So trading is your passion huh?


----------



## aussiefx (27 October 2012)

I have an interview next week after passing the first phase, is it bad etitiquette to ask how much an average trader trades with?


----------



## Trembling Hand (27 October 2012)

aussiefx said:


> I have an interview next week after passing the first phase, is it bad etitiquette to ask how much an average trader trades with?




I can answer that for you. The _average _trader trades anywhere between 1 lot to 300 lots. Then there's the good ones.


----------



## aussiefx (27 October 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> I can answer that for you. The _average _trader trades anywhere between 1 lot to 300 lots. Then there's the good ones.




Hi TH,

I was after an average, 1-300 is more a range of everyone, no?

I'll just stick my neck out and ask.


----------



## skc (27 October 2012)

aussiefx said:


> Hi TH,
> 
> I was after an average, 1-300 is more a range of everyone, no?
> 
> I'll just stick my neck out and ask.




You won't get an answer. They are pretty guarded when it comes to that. The response you'd get is "How long is a piece of string...".

But the trading limit there is much more than what most retail traders would ever hope to trade - as long as you are good enough.


----------



## CanOz (1 November 2012)

Interesting, been watching a few webinars by some scouts, like John Hoagland from these guys....Like an online Prop Shop...

I might give this a go for something to do in the evenings

CanOz


----------



## CanOz (1 November 2012)

CanOz said:


> Interesting, been watching a few webinars by some scouts, like John Hoagland from these guys....Like an online Prop Shop...
> 
> I might give this a go for something to do in the evenings
> 
> CanOz





Joe, is this along the lines of what you were thinking about doing?


----------



## aussiefx (1 November 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> I was accepted into their 4 week online trial in October. If that goes well then I get invited to trade at their Sydney office for a few months on a simulator. If I go well there I get offered a position.
> 
> Right now they're sending me lots of material about futures trading and markets which I have to go throug before the trial starts.




Did you make it to the next part Kurwa?


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (2 November 2012)

aussiefx said:


> Did you make it to the next part Kurwa?




Don't know yet - we finished up on Wednesday this week and haven't recieved any notification yet except for them saying that they would be reviewing results yesterday (thursdays). I figure we might hear something today. Or maybe I was that terrible they're not going to even bother emailing me? 

Have you started in house? How are you finding it?


----------



## aussiefx (2 November 2012)

No, in house starts on 12th November.


----------



## aussiefx (2 November 2012)

I see Guy keeps delaying the results for October group. First Wednesday, then Thursday now Monday. Wonder what the issue is?


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (3 November 2012)

Maybe he's focused on setting up the next batch (i think they got most of their accounts and stuff setup on Wednesday/Thursday) and then who wants to do work on a friday evening?? 

Don't know really, could be lots of things. Have you been trading FX on a retail basis or did you work for a trading firm?


----------



## CanOz (3 November 2012)

If you guys don't make the cut this time, will you consider Topsteptrader?

CanOz


----------



## aussiefx (3 November 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Maybe he's focused on setting up the next batch (i think they got most of their accounts and stuff setup on Wednesday/Thursday) and then who wants to do work on a friday evening??
> 
> Don't know really, could be lots of things. Have you been trading FX on a retail basis or did you work for a trading firm?




I've been trading just my own a/c. 

Never thought to look at futures but glad I did.


----------



## aussiefx (4 November 2012)

CanOz said:


> If you guys don't make the cut this time, will you consider Topsteptrader?
> 
> CanOz




Yes, if I don't get offered a position after the in house training then I'll definitely try the $150k Combine. Based on my performance in the Propex training I'd achieve the requirements so I'll see how things go.


----------



## KurwaJegoMac (4 November 2012)

CanOz said:


> If you guys don't make the cut this time, will you consider Topsteptrader?
> 
> CanOz




I certainly would. Based on the requirements and my time at Propex I think I'd be in the same boat as Aussiefx


----------



## SuperGlue (4 November 2012)

havaiana said:


> The rest of the month sim trading.




On the simulator trading, are you allowed to use your own system/indicators or just price & time only?


----------



## aussiefx (4 November 2012)

SuperGlue said:


> On the simulator trading, are you allowed to use your own system/indicators or just price & time only?




In the 4 weeks they give you, 2 are taken up doing drills. The remaining time is for you trade however you want. P/L is the key, obviously. But also learning from mistakes and showing consistency in your trading.


----------



## havaiana (4 November 2012)

SuperGlue said:


> On the simulator trading, are you allowed to use your own system/indicators or just price & time only?




Whatever you like. xtrader was used for execution, but also had access to CQG's platform for charts etc. Couldn't hold positions overnight and they want you to be pretty active.

With prop you've got guys staring at DOM's to get into and out of trades before anyone else, speed is key, i find it hard to imagine an indicator that will help with that (but i don't really use them so don't know).

I find it hard to see how a one size fits all trading system could work (not suggesting that's what yours is), for example a trading system is unlikely to be able to take advantage of all trading days, on a trending AND range/choppy day, then trending days could be completely different depending on the volatility etc.

My advice would be to be to focus on a market and how it tends to move in different circumstances. Then before each trading day looking more at things like what the levels are for the day (that a large number of traders will be watching) which are you expecting to get tested and what might the reaction be. What sort of day do you expect to see and how are some ways it could likely play out if you are right, how it will likely play out if you are wrong etc. What news is there for the day how could that effect things etc.

Here are some morning reports from propex to get an idea for levels etc. They put them up pretty much every morning
http://www.propex.net.au/alexs-updates/441-morning-spi-report-us-equities-to-the-rescue
http://www.propex.net.au/alexs-updates/440-friday-bond-report-bonds-remain-steady


----------



## aussiefx (9 November 2012)

My 3 month in house training starts the 19th Nov in Sydney.

Mixed feelings going into it as I've heard some mixed reports but also some positive ones.

Will be an experience, either way.


----------



## SuperGlue (9 November 2012)

aussiefx said:


> My 3 month in house training starts the 19th Nov in Sydney.




Congrats, Aus.

Get to put everything you know into practise.

All the best.


----------



## CanOz (9 November 2012)

aussiefx said:


> My 3 month in house training starts the 19th Nov in Sydney.
> 
> Mixed feelings going into it as I've heard some mixed reports but also some positive ones.
> 
> Will be an experience, either way.




Congrats and good luck!


----------



## aussiefx (14 November 2012)

Well the drill week has been interesting so far. They've let us trade in 50 lot clips upto 150. Seems a tad unrealistic for trainee traders but it was fun seeing the P/L move in good chunks.

If anyone knows anyone who has a spare room going for $200-250 a week in Sydney, any info would be appreciated!


----------



## Mr J (17 November 2012)

aussiefx said:


> If anyone knows anyone who has a spare room going for $200-250 a week in Sydney, any info would be appreciated!




Check out Domain.com.au or realestate.com.au, plenty of places with rooms for under $250 (you could get $200 or less in a good area, close to the city).

I appreciate the updates, I'm interested in trying the prop route in the future.

I've been watching the DOM alot recently, I was surprised by how much more natural it felt than looking at charts - the time I could've saved!


----------



## SuperGlue (6 December 2012)

Propex is advertising again for the next intake:

http://www.seek.com.au/Job/proprietary-futures-traders/in/gold-coast-gold-coast/23590535


----------



## Mr J (20 December 2012)

Has anyone done the paid online propex course? I'm thinking of doing it as preparation for the online trial, particularly as I haven't so actively day traded before. The site says it is much of what is covered by the inhouse trainees. It will also be tax-deductable for me


----------



## white_goodman (21 December 2012)

Mr J said:


> Has anyone done the paid online propex course? I'm thinking of doing it as preparation for the online trial, particularly as I haven't so actively day traded before. The site says it is much of what is covered by the inhouse trainees. It will also be tax-deductable for me




i could think of money better spent elsewhere


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (21 December 2012)

white_goodman said:


> i could think of money better spent elsewhere




Agreed, but curious what you'd rather spend it on?


----------



## white_goodman (21 December 2012)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Agreed, but curious what you'd rather spend it on?




8-ball x 5


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (21 December 2012)

white_goodman said:


> 8-ball x 5




lol thought you might say that


----------



## young-gun (21 December 2012)

white_goodman said:


> 8-ball x 5




do you play a lot of pool?


----------



## Mr J (21 December 2012)

white_goodman said:


> i could think of money better spent elsewhere




Thanks, that's all I need to hear


----------



## white_goodman (21 December 2012)

young-gun said:


> do you play a lot of pool?




no more the magic variety


----------



## Mr J (12 January 2013)

Does anyone have any advice for someone undertaking the Propex online trial?


----------



## aussiefx (9 February 2013)

Well it's been a long road but finally made to getting a live a/c. Now it's time to make some money!


----------



## Vixs (11 February 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Well it's been a long road but finally made to getting a live a/c. Now it's time to make some money!




Congratulations.

How do you feel about your trading skills after 3 months preparation? 

Are the skills you are using to trade your new live account ones acquired as part of your training, or skills you already possessed/learned yourself?

How secure/insecure do you feel about trading for an income?

What kind of hours are you working?

The most pertinent to me but also the most invasive, so feel free not to let me know - what kind of income are you hoping or expecting to achieve monthly and yearly - minimum and maximum? Is the entirety at risk or is there a base level + profits?

Appreciate any response.

Thanks.


----------



## skc (11 February 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Well it's been a long road but finally made to getting a live a/c. Now it's time to make some money!




Congrats!


----------



## waza1960 (17 February 2013)

MrJ empty your inbox I can give you some info re propex


----------



## kid hustlr (18 February 2013)

waza1960 said:


> MrJ empty your inbox I can give you some info re propex




Could you also flick this on to me?


----------



## Mr J (18 February 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Well it's been a long road but finally made to getting a live a/c. Now it's time to make some money!




Congratulations, I imagine it is immensely satisfying! I'll be thrilled if I make the cut for in-house.


----------



## aussiefx (18 February 2013)

Vixs said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> How do you feel about your trading skills after 3 months preparation?
> 
> ...




My style of trading has changed out of recognition from 3 months ago, it's been a steep learning curve.

Hours are long, but generally whatever you want to work. 10-12 hr are normal days, however some guys I know easily push 14 hr days regularly. 

Profit/earnings is just too hard to answer. You obviously start out very small but you can get clipped up reasonably quickly. It varies from person to person. I have my own goals but we'll see about them in 3-6 months time.


----------



## Mr J (13 March 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Hours are long, but generally whatever you want to work. 10-12 hr are normal days, however some guys I know easily push 14 hr days regularly.




And well into the AM...


----------



## RobinHood (15 May 2013)

anyone heard of or dealt with tradeview ? melbourne based prop shop.

http://www.tradeview.com.au/


----------



## CanOz (30 July 2013)

Found this free training course while searching for Prop Shops in Shanghai....


----------



## skc (31 July 2013)

Today marks exactly one year since the day I started prop trading, and it has been a very good 12 months. It all started when I asked an innocent question...



skc said:


> Do they take someone like me trading equities?




And thanks to someone's introduction I was offered the chance to interview and subsequently trade equities with them.

I have been trading remote from home so there are actually few differences between prop and trading my own money in terms of day to day processes. I do howoever get access to a wider range of information (e.g. broker reports), opportunity to talk to other traders and better trading platform etc. What I was surprised to find out, was how overall relaxed (it's not just because I am trading remote in my PJs) and supportive the environment is. It's great to have someone reassuring you through periods of drawdown and showing you confidence in your ability.

If you have what it takes I strongly recommend giving it a shot. There's even an online form these days.

http://www.propex.net.au/careers/451-propex-is-now-trading-equities


----------



## skyQuake (31 July 2013)

skc said:


> Today marks exactly one year since the day I started prop trading, and it has been a very good 12 months. It all started when I asked an innocent question...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well done!

They are after all, a business. If you can show you have a consistent edge even in something like poker they might bankroll that too


----------



## CanOz (31 July 2013)

I wonder if we should dig up some articles on the games they used to play on the floor? Likely why the floor traders didn't welcome electronic trading, they lost their edge.


----------



## db94 (31 July 2013)

skc said:


> Today marks exactly one year since the day I started prop trading, and it has been a very good 12 months. It all started when I asked an innocent question...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





wow, someone on here who works for a prop shop  
Ive wanted to get into prop trading for a while now, especially in equities. Gotta finish uni first and hopefully get some decent funds to start trading. You should do a AMA (ask me anything) about the job etc, so others and myself can see what its like to be a prop trader.


----------



## CanOz (31 July 2013)

db94 said:


> Ive wanted to get into prop trading for a while now, especially in equities. Gotta finish uni first and hopefully get some decent funds to start trading. .






> wow, someone on here who works for a prop shop



 There's more than one, and a few ex-prop




> You should do a AMA (ask me anything) about the job etc, so others and myself can see what its like to be a prop trader




this is a great idea, Propex should encourage this if they want more recruits....


----------



## So_Cynical (31 July 2013)

skc said:


> Today marks exactly one year since the day I started prop trading, and it has been a very good 12 months. It all started when I asked an innocent question...




Well done skc, i always knew you were the real deal.


----------



## skc (31 July 2013)

skyQuake said:


> They are after all, a business. If you can show you have a consistent edge even in something like poker they might bankroll that too




Lol. Imagine the day they start an online poker or sports betting desk. A betting floor with 20 big screens showing all the sports you can handle...



db94 said:


> You should do a AMA (ask me anything) about the job etc, so others and myself can see what its like to be a prop trader.




You can AMA, but I don't promise AEA (answer everything asked). Plus I am trading remote in equities so may be it's very different to be in the office doing futures.


----------



## payday (31 July 2013)

I'll take the bait and ask a few questions skc, if I may.
1. What made you take the leap into prop trading?
2. Were you already a successful trader in your own right? Ie able to draw an income solely from trading that you could live off?
3. What are the advantages of prop trading over trading on your own? 
4. Would you go back to trading on your own?
5. Is there high pressure to perform? If so, what are the benchmarks?

Thanks. I may have more questions in the future


----------



## CanOz (31 July 2013)

Kudos SKC, I've always admired your discipline and your self analysis, the stats and stuff you look at. Also, you seem to be an all rounder of sorts, technical but fundamental too...with a knowledge of ASX Stocks, second to none.

Its nice to have a few of the "real deal" around, by that i mean Prop Traders...good enough to trade OP's money. Cool, quiet and confident. I really appreciate all you've contributed.:thankyou:

Congrats on your first year


----------



## skc (31 July 2013)

payday said:


> I'll take the bait and ask a few questions skc, if I may.
> 1. What made you take the leap into prop trading?
> 2. Were you already a successful trader in your own right? Ie able to draw an income solely from trading that you could live off?
> 3. What are the advantages of prop trading over trading on your own?
> ...




payday,

1. All the advantages listed in point 3. But the tipping point was actually the collapse of MF Global and me withdrawing 90% of my funds with them on the Friday night before they folded on Monday morning.
2. Yes. I traded full time for 4 years before joining.
3. I don't want to go through it all here. They are through this thread which you can read. You can also see the hinderence of a private trader here. https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26543&highlight=hidden. Essentially it makes good business sense and it makes good professional development sense.
4. They will have to kick me out. Or in an unlikely scenario - they can no longer increase my size AND I have enough of my own capital to trade such size AND at the same low transaction costs AND I have no fear of counterparty risks.
5. Not at all. The only real demand they've ever made was encourage me to trade my full size limit (as I often don't). But they always let me grow my trading at my own pace, and they always tell me there's higher limit available when I reach my threshold. It's not a pressurised environment at all, but it helps me to develop and continue to reach beyond the comfort zone. There are no benchmarks.

P.S. Thanks everyone for the love.


----------



## VSntchr (1 August 2013)

Lovely to hear SKC, keep that alpha pumping!

The constant drive to keep improving and upsizing is vital IMO and will no doubt ensure your consistent success.


----------



## payday (1 August 2013)

Thanks skc for the reply. Can I just ask a generic question - I have always been confused about the role of a prop shop. They are not fund managers are they? What is the reason for their existence? Is it just a group of traders who get together and share the costs of the more expensive platforms that are out there - like Bloomberg terminals etc and combine their expertise? Also, what does the prop shop get out of you joining them? Do they get a cut of your profits? 
Thanks again


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

SKC

Did you make bonus?


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

> I wonder if we should dig up some articles on the games they used to play on the floor? Likely why the floor traders didn't welcome electronic trading, they lost their edge.




Ive been fortunate enough to spend sometime socially with Nick Radge.
He's floor traded 

London
Singapore
Chicago
Sydney

Every now and then he pops up with some truly riveting stories
Nick lights up!

But generally the edge seemed to be "Floor Knowledge"
Who dealt with who---who handled who
How those on each end of the trade operated.
By knowing the players and how they played you
attempted to front run them or draw in players.

Hand signals
Rapid fire buy sells.
What was size for some hence somethings up.

Alan Pease  must have plied his trade here!
Sadly the color of the floor and its characters are all but gone.

I mentioned recently that I was looking forward to the film
"Wolf of Wall Street" Having read both books.
He tells me that it is pretty close to the mark to how it was.
No need to write a script!
Jordan Belfort now commands $100,000 for 1hr or so speaking engagements.
Now that's one guy who'd be great at a dinner party!

I guess that's the next step from prop!


----------



## skc (1 August 2013)

payday said:


> Thanks skc for the reply. Can I just ask a generic question - I have always been confused about the role of a prop shop. They are not fund managers are they? What is the reason for their existence? Is it just a group of traders who get together and share the costs of the more expensive platforms that are out there - like Bloomberg terminals etc and combine their expertise? Also, what does the prop shop get out of you joining them? Do they get a cut of your profits?
> Thanks again




Prop shops exist to make money. They house traders, *provide them with capital,* market access, IT support etc. As you are trading their capital while they are getting your trading skills, it seems only fair to enter some sort of profit split arrangement. Although some shops may also offer base salary.

What you might be thinking of is a trading room of sorts (I can't remember the proper name) where traders get together, share the costs but trade their own money. That's an entirely different business model. 



tech/a said:


> Did you make bonus?




No. There is no such thing as a bonus for me.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> SKC
> 
> Did you make bonus?




No bonus.


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2013)

skc said:


> What you might be thinking of is a trading room of sorts (I can't remember the proper name) where traders get together, share the costs but trade their own money.





Trading arcade.


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> No bonus.




So I presume no bonuses for either of you.
So a salary plus a share of profit?

I guess what Im getting at is that if you are trading for a share of profit only (and that makes sense) and 
trading approx 100 x the size you'd trade on your own account then you'd need more than 1% to be better off.
As an example.

Is that the way it works.


----------



## kid hustlr (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> So I presume no bonuses for either of you.
> So a salary plus a share of profit?
> 
> I guess what Im getting at is that if you are trading for a share of profit only (and that makes sense) and
> ...




yep

Think TH wrote a piece one time about the benefits of being in a shop, there's arguments either way but for most I would think a shop makes sense.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> So I presume no bonuses for either of you.
> So a salary plus a share of profit?
> 
> I guess what Im getting at is that if you are trading for a share of profit only (and that makes sense) and
> ...




Salary? what is that?


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Salary? what is that?




Some do run salaries.
Plus bonuses --why I asked.
Obviously performance based only.

So to the second part of my query?

If that is the way it works.
How much better than trading your own.

Is the "Average" prop trader earning $100k-$300k
A very good one --more---particularly over $500K

And finally how poor do you have to be before you haven't got a job?


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> And finally how poor do you have to be before you haven't got a job?




Lose money  = out the door.

I've never seen a prop shop pay a salary or a bonus structure its always a % split of profits after cost.

Its 1000000 times better than trading your own capital. Its RISK free!!


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Lose money  = out the door.
> 
> I've never seen a prop shop pay a salary or a bonus structure its always a % split of profits after cost.
> 
> Its 1000000 times better than trading your own capital. Its RISK free!!




Its not entirely Risk free.

*Lose money  = out the door.*


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

Tech as to your answer about how much an average trader makes trading prop? F knows. The most I have seen on the risk screen for one days profit was $120,000. The largest loss I think I've seen is $50,000. But I really have no idea. I'm not in the office so my guess is only slightly better than imagination. :

As to how much I made last month? here is the bottom line from my statement.
...................................Contracts traded........... P & L



LOL hey..... ya win some ya lose some


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Tech as to your answer about how much an average trader makes trading prop? F knows. The most I have seen on the risk screen for one days profit was $120,000. The largest loss I think I've seen is $50,000. But I really have no idea. I'm not in the office so my guess is only slightly better than imagination. :
> 
> As to how much I made last month? here is the bottom line from my statement.
> ...................................Contracts traded........... P & L
> ...




Yes understand
But Im interested in what sort of cut a trader who made $120K in a day would get for himself.
I presume it would be a monthly total.

Or is it a running accumulative.

EG say 120K profit for the month 10% = $12000
next Month loss of say $5000 is that just a cost of business for the prop guys?
Would that get you out the door if it happened for 3 mths--say?

Oh and what happenned last month
The front of it looked unstoppable.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24462&page=120

#2394


----------



## kid hustlr (1 August 2013)

Tech each month you have costs, you minus all these costs (brokerage/desk/software, whatever) from your profit to give you your after cost result. then you split the rest as per your agreement.

The reason TH is vague is because every shop is slightly different and every individual agreement with the shop probably varies slightly also (limits/split % etc)

if you are stuck one month then that rolls over to the next month, if you were stuck 6 months in a row they probably chop you but once again it depends - its a business decision for both parties and the relationship involved will once again vary.

I feel like you are suggesting 'if these guys re so good why don't they do it for themselves'. I think the more successful you are as a trader, the more capital you have and the more experience you have then the more reason to go it alone but once again, every relationship between the shop and trader will vary and it depends on the individual.

Also as TH said, theres no risk. if you blow you're account you just cant pay the mortgage - you don't lose the house. (bad analogy but you get my drift).

- - - Updated - - -



tech/a said:


> Or is it a running accumulative.
> 
> 
> #2394




yes its accumulative


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> But Im interested in what sort of cut a trader who made $120K in a day would get for himself.
> I presume it would be a monthly total.
> 
> Or is it a running accumulative.
> ...




10% LOL Tech you have massively underestimated this game. That is why its just unfathomable that if you can trade you wouldn't give it a go.

Trainees start on 50% split. What do ya reckon they would give to a trader that can take 200 - 300g per month? :

Its a running total. You go into draw down you have to work out. That being said I, just like skc, are always surprised at the level of support. A trader who can trade will be carried for some time. A lot longer than a 3 month rough patch.



tech/a said:


> Oh and what happenned last month
> The front of it looked unstoppable.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24462&page=120
> ...




Not much. More size. It becomes a different game at a certain level. Aint no stops at times.....


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

kid hustlr said:


> Tech each month you have costs, you minus all these costs (brokerage/desk/software, whatever) from your profit to give you your after cost result. then you split the rest as per your agreement.
> 
> The reason TH is vague is because every shop is slightly different and every individual agreement with the shop probably varies slightly also (limits/split % etc)
> 
> ...




Thanks Kid

Yes I do understand the reasoning.

I've heard of very successful Traders who suffer $1 million swings in their accounts
and when 2008 hit know that there were a spate of necking's and many lost the lot 
lifestyle and everything else.

So If you blow up you have at least the ability to do it once risk free.
Doubt you'd get another job though if the blow up was big enough!

Personally I've always been of the "Slow and steady wins the race"--ilk.
Also of the "How many Millions do you want"--group.

For nearly 20 yrs I complained  " If I'm being taxed this much and have made this much" where the hell is it!
Now when i walk around the depot I can SEE where it is!
While friends flashed 1000s around like confetti. Pretty well all of them have confetti and are to old to do anything about it!

Don't get me wrong I'm certainly not against Prop trading or think that those capable of trading it shouldn't.
I'm interested in the discussion.
Interested in the thinking.

*That is why its just unfathomable that if you can trade you wouldn't give it a go.*

My answer is in your Inbox


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2013)

I'm thinking you'd make a good Prop Shop owner Tech. You've obviously got the money to invest. To me, running a prop shop would be a little like trading, cut your losing traders short, let your winners run. This was the impression i got from the book "One Good Trade" as well.

I reckon you'd need a few hundred k to get setup, then several million in risk capital?


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

One of my mates who who was at one of the firms previously has told me that I should go and do it. Unfortunately he didn't make it and to be honest his personality is not at all suited to trading (patience, objectivity, concentration, mathematical probability thinking etc).

I'm currently in a steady, fairly comfortable job which I like but doesn't excite me like trading. The thought has run through my mind to go up to the Gold Coast or Sydney or wherever really. I wonder if I'm missing the opportunity to make a lot of money in something that I'm passionate about and am very well suited to!


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> One of my mates who who was at one of the firms previously has told me that I should go and do it. Unfortunately he didn't make it and to be honest his personality is not at all suited to trading (patience, objectivity, concentration, mathematical probability thinking etc).
> 
> I'm currently in a steady, fairly comfortable job which I like but doesn't excite me like trading. The thought has run through my mind to go up to the Gold Coast or Sydney or wherever really. I wonder if I'm missing the opportunity to make a lot of money in something that I'm passionate about and am very well suited to!




Find something you love to do and you'll never work another day in your life Pav.

I envy you, I'd be in like Flynn.


----------



## skc (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> Its not entirely Risk free.
> 
> *Lose money  = out the door.*




There is no risk on your personal capital. Of course there are other risks like getting hit by a car while you go to the office instead of trading from home...



tech/a said:


> If that is the way it works.
> How much better than trading your own.
> 
> Is the "Average" prop trader earning $100k-$300k
> A very good one --more---particularly over $500K




I have no idea the average but >$500k wouldn't be a stretch at all. In my case, based on my current size, I am ~3.5-4x better off than trading on my own. Plus I can deploy my personal capital into things like fundamental buy and hold strategies 



tech/a said:


> And finally how poor do you have to be before you haven't got a job?




I don't know and I hope I never find out.



Trembling Hand said:


> Tech as to your answer about how much an average trader makes trading prop? F knows. The most I have seen on the risk screen for *one days profit was $120,000. *




That is a sweet number.



Trembling Hand said:


> As to how much I made last month? here is the bottom line from my statement.
> ...................................Contracts traded........... P & L
> View attachment 53636




That is not a sweet number


----------



## boofis (1 August 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> I wonder if I'm missing the opportunity to make a lot of money in something that I'm passionate about and am very well suited to!




How well suited to trading did you think you were before the duck started spoon feeding?


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> One of my mates who who was at one of the firms previously has told me that I should go and do it. Unfortunately he didn't make it and to be honest his personality is not at all suited to trading (patience, objectivity, concentration, mathematical probability thinking etc).
> 
> I'm currently in a steady, fairly comfortable job which I like but doesn't excite me like trading. The thought has run through my mind to go up to the Gold Coast or Sydney or wherever really. I wonder if I'm missing the opportunity to make a lot of money in something that I'm passionate about and am very well suited to!




*Plenty of time*
The markets not going anywhere.
Build a foundation.
then do as you wish.

Ah the exuberance of youth!


----------



## kid hustlr (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> Thanks Kid
> 
> Yes I do understand the reasoning.
> 
> ...




As CanOz said you should run a shop.

Completely agree with your thoughts on lifestyle and the bolded part.

Pretty sure the 100 basis point cut bankrupted one shop. there one day, gone the next!


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

boofis said:


> How well suited to trading did you think you were before the duck started spoon feeding?




Probably pretty good considering I was won multiple online poker tournaments with literally 2,000 participants.

So yeh, I'd say fairly well suited, wouldn't you?


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> Plenty of time
> The markets not going anywhere.
> Build a foundation.
> then do as you wish.
> ...




Yeh I know Tech. You know I'm a patient guy but I guess my thoughts are why not consider doing it if it is likely to achieve multiples of my current salary!!

I'm not seriously considering it but that thought is in the back if my mind.


----------



## skc (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Trainees start on 50% split. What do ya reckon they would give to a trader that can take 200 - 300g per month? :




I think Radge once said on this thread he knew people of 80% split. That's quite amazing to me...



CanOz said:


> I reckon you'd need a few hundred k to get setup, then several million in risk capital?




It's a numbers game. You need a critical mass of traders so the shop's equity curve is smooth. I'd say 15-20 minimum trading various uncorrelated markets and strategies. Then you got to make sure they have room to grow their size and limit as they progresses. The fixed costs are probably quite high as well, you need managers, floor space, IT support, big fat pipe, risk managers, risk systems etc. Then you need to set up the right broker relationships so you get low commission. So I'd say $25m would probably be a bare minimum. 



pavilion103 said:


> One of my mates who who was at one of the firms previously has told me that I should go and do it. Unfortunately he didn't make it and to be honest his personality is not at all suited to trading (*patience, objectivity, concentration, mathematical probability thinking etc*).




Why do you say that? These are awesome qualities for certain quantitative trading strategies.



pavilion103 said:


> I'm currently in a steady, fairly comfortable job which I like but doesn't excite me like trading. The thought has run through my mind to go up to the Gold Coast or Sydney or wherever really. I wonder if I'm missing the opportunity to make a lot of money in something that I'm passionate about and am very well suited to!




Pav, your equity momentum stuff is unlikely to be attractive to Propex. They looks for something that's more active, all terrain and shorter timeframe. Your futures probably look more suitable but I am not an authority on that front. But what's the worst that can happen, you waste 2 hours putting together a CV?


----------



## boofis (1 August 2013)

tech/a said:


> Back in 2012 Pav mailed me with a request for help.
> His trading was erratic and he was dis heartened with his results.






pavilion103 said:


> Probably pretty good considering I was won multiple online poker tournaments with literally 2,000 participants.
> 
> So yeh, I'd say fairly well suited, wouldn't you?




Nope.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

skc said:


> It's a numbers game. You need a critical mass of traders so the shop's equity curve is smooth. I'd say 15-20 minimum trading various uncorrelated markets and strategies. Then you got to make sure they have room to grow their size and limit as they progresses. The fixed costs are probably quite high as well, you need managers, floor space, IT support, big fat pipe, risk managers, risk systems etc. Then you need to set up the right broker relationships so you get low commission. So I'd say $25m would probably be a bare minimum.




Yep and then you need an ASFL and decent trainers and legals and an accountant on site and and and.


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

boofis said:


> Nope.




Yeh because I would adjust straight from poker to trading in 5 minutes? 

And the fact that I was intelligent enough to do everything in my power to get the people and resources around me to be successful is a bad thing? 

I love it when someone comes on and attacks someone personally, it usually means they are doing something right. You wouldn't see me come on and do that. I'm flattered you consider me that significant boofhead.

It's embarrassing that your going back to dig up quotes to post in here. Can't imagine any of the other serious traders in this thread doing that.


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

By my mates qualities I meant that he lacked those not had them.


I know 100% about the way I'm trading momentum in the equities is completely different.  But I'm not a one trick pony. I'm doing well in futures now and applying various tactics.


----------



## boofis (1 August 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> Yeh because I would adjust straight from poker to trading in 5 minutes?
> 
> And the fact that I was intelligent enough to do everything in my power to get the people and resources around me to be successful is a bad thing?
> 
> ...




It's not a bad thing at all that tech helped you, but just don't forget you'd still be **** if he didn't is all I'm saying...that and stop lying to children about the universe. 

Anywho, my trolling is done here, oh and it really is terrible that I would look for evidence (quotes) to form an opinion (you'd still be unprofitable without tech).



And to avoid confusion, I'm boofis. Boofhead is another user lol. Please don't flatter him when you intend to flatter me.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> By my mates qualities I meant that he lacked those not had them.




Those quantities wouldn't be in any of the good prop traders i know. Think of a cunning tick you in the balls street fighter. Then picture someone uglier. That is about perfect.


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

*Ease up boof!*

I couldn't win a hand of poker let alone a tournament!
I've shone the light not walked hand in hand down the road!
Haven't got the time for that and took PAV on as he has a brain
and knows how to use it.

If I can spot one thing its potential---its there in Buckets.
and frankly Pavs No maintenance.

Wish I had more employees like that!

- - - Updated - - -



Trembling Hand said:


> Those quantities wouldn't be in any of the good prop traders i know. Think of a cunning tick you in the balls street fighter. Then picture someone uglier. That is about perfect.





Rambo---Lives on the Sunshine coast!


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## CanOz (1 August 2013)

> Haven't got the time for that and took PAV on as he has a brain
> and knows how to use it.
> 
> If I can spot one thing its potential---its there in Buckets.
> and frankly Pavs No maintenance.




Seems such a shame to waste all of that talent. You really should have a go at TST or Propex Pav. Maybe TopStepTrader is something you could do while you work, see if you have the discipline to pass the combine. If you have that then you'll get funded. Take your stats after a year or so to Propex, bingo, in the big time Pav.

Why play in the minors if you have what it takes for the big time?


----------



## pavilion103 (1 August 2013)

Haha I knew there was an underlying reason for your hostility and it comes out... Wouldn't see such emotion from someone who was more surer of his opinions. 

Yeh lucky I met the one person in the world who could help poor pathetic lowly me learn how to trade. I'd be a rubbish trader into perpetuity if I hadn't met Tech! Not

But he has accelerated my learning greatly, very grateful to him. Very lucky!

Let's keep it on topic boys and no need to derail the conversation like a petulant little child who's friend's toy is newer and shinier than his own!


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Seems such a shame to waste all of that talent. You really should have a go at TST or Propex Pav. Maybe TopStepTrader is something you could do while you work, see if you have the discipline to pass the combine. If you have that then you'll get funded. Take your stats after a year or so to Propex, bingo, in the big time Pav.
> 
> Why play in the minors if you have what it takes for the big time?




I guess if you could win the odd Vegas poker tournament worth 10 million

That would be a good reason---
Mine is another----


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2013)

I just think of it as a sports analogy, play the game while you're young enough, exploit the talent. I guess I'm sort of wishing my life had taken a different turn too. Not that i wasted my life by any means, but i just wish i was young again and able to take a punt on being a full-time Prop Trader at a young age. That's why i envy Pav, Boofis, Kid, Hav, Sky, and Sammy. They're all in the right place, go get 'em, now's your chance.

That's also why i'd love to have the cash to fund traders, would love to see them do really well at it.


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2013)

Two positions Id hate to be in.

(1) Starting out.---The uncertainty--the under capitalization for life itself
(2) Unemployed and considered too old.---The certainty and the under capitalization of whats left of life.

Thankfully I employ myself!


----------



## db94 (1 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> There's more than one, and a few ex-prop




Awesome, i need to get outta the general chat sub-forum and in this sub-forum more. ill take it youre an ex-prop trader?

Also a few question for those that are prop traders, if you can answer 


Whats the difference between doing S&T at say Goldman and working at a prop shop like Propex?

I want to trade but I also want to make a living off it, ive been told that propex tell their new employees not to expect any money for a year or too? is there any truth to this?

Are math skills really that important? or is it just a test to make the numbers smaller?

Any advice for an aspiring trader? like tips, books to read etc

What has been youre best trade ever? what has been youre worst? How did you handle the situation?

Last one, whats the hardest part about being a prop trader?


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2013)

db94 said:


> ill take it youre an ex-prop trader?




lol, no DB, I'm just a semi-retired food industry exec and wanna be Prop trader, but getting too old too quickld:.

If i were in Australia I'd be beating down Guy Bowers door.

Am trying to find some places in Shanghai though, seems there are quite a few Prop Shops moving to Asia with the Dodd/Frank stuff.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

db94 said:


> Whats the difference between doing S&T at say Goldman and working at a prop shop like Propex?



You don't have to wear a stupid suit and cloth around your neck and more importantly you don't have to kiss anyones **** to stay. oh yeah with prop you pick your own hours, days, weeks, months,. Want 6 months off? "No props have fun"



db94 said:


> I want to trade but I also want to make a living off it, ive been told that propex tell their new employees not to expect any money for a year or too? is there any truth to this?



About right for a trainee I would guess.




db94 said:


> Any advice for an aspiring trader? like tips, books to read etc




yeah. Get some bamboo, sharpen it, stick it under your finger nails and slowly insert it into your nail beds over a 4 hour period. Once you are about to be physically sick walk to the corner of your desk and smash your head into the corner of it as hard as you can. Once you wake up call up someone and pretend they are the risk department and beg and promise that you will do better in the arvo and can they increase your daily loss limit just this one (again!).......Then proceed to zig when you should zag. until you dig another hole that makes you spew all over you keyboard. thankfully this blows up your computer and you finally stop trading for the day and go to the pub which will finish up at the_ jack the rippers_ and dropping another $500 that you will not remember tomorrow.. That will get you partly used to trading size...... only partly.



db94 said:


> What has been youre best trade ever? what has been youre worst? How did you handle the situation?




Absolutely no idea either way. I click the buy and sell button about 200 times a day. I can hardly remember a trade number from this morning let alone 5 years ago.



db94 said:


> Last one, whats the hardest part about being a prop trader?




Lots. like should I bother putting shoes and pants on today. :


----------



## payday (1 August 2013)

Do you have to be a short term day trader/scalper to be a prop trader? I am by no means a long term trader but I typically enter about 1-2 trades per day and they are usually closed out within a few hours or days if there is a run on.


----------



## db94 (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> You don't have to wear a stupid suit and cloth around your neck and more importantly you don't have to kiss anyones **** to stay. oh yeah with prop you pick your own hours, days, weeks, months,. Want 6 months off? "No props have fun"



wow that's awesome! so you could potentially do it part-time then? Does anybody do this? I cant imagine this happening.





Trembling Hand said:


> Absolutely no idea either way. I click the buy and sell button about 200 times a day. I can hardly remember a trade number from this morning let alone 5 years ago.



So you're more of a scalper who uses the DOM and technical analysis then say someone who value invests for the medium-long term?


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

db94 said:


> wow that's awesome! so you could potentially do it part-time then? Does anybody do this? I cant imagine this happening.




Part-time as in a a few trades a week no. Part-time as in 6 months a year sure, if you are good enough.



db94 said:


> So you're more of a scalper who uses the DOM and technical analysis then say someone who value invests for the medium-long term?




No, no one scalps any more. I work in, reduce, rebuild and out of ideas all day. That is not scalping its intraday position trading.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> No, no one scalps any more. I work in, reduce, rebuild and out of ideas all day. That is not scalping its intraday position trading.




Why does no one scalp any more?  
edit: don't worry about the second question.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Why does no one scalp any more?




Scalping was what specialist used to do on the NYSE back 20-30 years ago when they had large tick sizes and close to no brokerage because they were members of the exchange. They would own the order book and you would cross the spread to take a position mostly off their inventory.

Those days have long gone. I used to do trades like that on the SPI back in the day. Arb bots have seen that go too.

People like to say they scalp when trading intraday but thats just cuz they are tossers and actually don't know what it is. They just trade intraday.


----------



## skc (1 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> yeah. Get some bamboo, sharpen it, stick it under your finger nails and slowly insert it into your nail beds over a 4 hour period. Once you are about to be physically sick walk to the corner of your desk and smash your head into the corner of it as hard as you can. Once you wake up call up someone and pretend they are the risk department and beg and promise that you will do better in the arvo and can they increase your daily loss limit just this one (again!).......Then proceed to zig when you should zag. until you dig another hole that makes you spew all over you keyboard. thankfully this blows up your computer and you finally stop trading for the day and go to the pub which will finish up at the_ jack the rippers_ and dropping another $500 that you will not remember tomorrow.. That will get you partly used to trading size...... only partly.




Lol. I was wondering why I struggle to size up so much. I will try following the above routine next week.


----------



## craft (1 August 2013)

skc said:


> Lol. I was wondering why I struggle to size up so much. I will try following the above routine next week.




Hi SKC

Is it your pairs trading that you are trading Prop?  I'd imagine trade execution gets pretty hard pretty quick with scale. Must be nice to have some mentors around to help guide through that.

It seems there's a good mutually beneficial opportunity for prop shops and frequent traders.  

A couple of questions if I may.

TH mentioned no risk - question to follow that up.  Is it actually possible to trade your own capital along side? Can you leave your profit in to build. Is their any counterparty risk if you had your own funds/profit in if the prop shop failed?

Also is the profit split after a charge for capital/hurdle rate?


Can't think of the mutually beneficial equivalent for those more investment focused.....yet. Have you heard of anything?


----------



## prawn_86 (2 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> yeah. Get some bamboo, sharpen it, stick it under your finger nails and slowly insert it into your nail beds over a 4 hour period. Once you are about to be physically sick walk to the corner of your desk and smash your head into the corner of it as hard as you can. Once you wake up call up someone and pretend they are the risk department and beg and promise that you will do better in the arvo and can they increase your daily loss limit just this one (again!).......Then proceed to zig when you should zag. until you dig another hole that makes you spew all over you keyboard. thankfully this blows up your computer and you finally stop trading for the day and go to the pub which will finish up at the_ jack the rippers_ and dropping another $500 that you will not remember tomorrow.. That will get you partly used to trading size...... only partly.




haha quote of the thread


----------



## skc (2 August 2013)

craft said:


> Is it your pairs trading that you are trading Prop?  I'd imagine trade execution gets pretty hard pretty quick with scale. Must be nice to have some mentors around to help guide through that.




Yes mostly pairs trading there. Yes sizing up is hard but at my current size, the difficulty comes more from getting used to the increased PnL swings mentally, more so than execution. The order execution takes a bit more time and care, as I need to split my orders and the top line of the market depth no longer has enough volume... but with a bit of practice it hasn't been a huge problem yet.



craft said:


> TH mentioned no risk - question to follow that up.  Is it actually possible to trade your own capital along side? Can you leave your profit in to build. Is their any counterparty risk if you had your own funds/profit in if the prop shop failed?
> 
> Also is the profit split after a charge for capital/hurdle rate?




No there is no facility to put up your own capital. And no there is no capital charge or hurdle rate.

Contrary to one's normal perception to trading, prop shops don't actually tell the trader "Here's $1m, go trade". The shop gives the trader a maximum size (e.g. N contracts, or $X in ASX200 companies with maximum of $Y total exposure) and other parameters like daily stop loss or whether they can hold overnight. But that's it, you don't know how much capital the firm actually set aside to support your trading. You can work out something like "What capital would I need as a private trader to trade these size/parameters?", but that number will be very different to that of the shop.

I don't know about funding costs of the shop, but I'd imagine it would be quite low. For a lot of short term trading strategies, the capital is not there to support positions, but instead to support drawdowns. A shop with 100 good traders will have an infinitely smoother shop-wide equity curve than a single individual very good trader for obvious reasons. So their requirement for drawdown would be much smaller.

Here's an example (all numbers fiticious). Say TH trades 10 HSI contracts which has ~A$12k margin each. So he only really needs $120k to trade that size. But he runs a daily stop of 100 ticks x 10 contracts which equates to ~A$7k, and he wants to keep that daily stop to be 1% of capital, his "notional trading capital" for risk/drawdown purpose is thus $700k. But from the shop's perspective, assuming TH has a positive edge over the long run, they probably only need $150-200k (if that) to support his trade. As TH's drawdown phase would be offset by the positive expectancies of the other 99 traders. 

Equity is a different game again. If CFD providers let any retail mug trades BHP @ 5% margin, imgaine what sort of deal a professionally run prop shop can get with a prime broker. With my market netural pairs, the margin could actually be close to zero.

So any capital put up by the trader is difficult for the shop to workout exactly what proportion of your trading that should account for, and chances are it will either erode the shop's own return, or be quite uneconomic for the trader.

Unless the shop is capital constrained and has more traders wanting to trade larger sizes that it cannot support, getting capital from a trader will not be a priority. The truth is, if a shop ask traders to put up capital, I'd probably question the financial strength of the shop.



craft said:


> Can't think of the mutually beneficial equivalent for those more investment focused.....yet. Have you heard of anything?




A mutual fund manager?


----------



## craft (2 August 2013)

Thanks for taking the time SKC

Your description of capital requirement from the shops perspective is pretty much how I assumed it would be which prompted the question as to whether you could run your own capital along side.

Last question/thinking out loud (ignore if you wish)

Do you get enough time and remaining emotional energy to still maximise your own capital? If you can’t do both adequately does the potential of the prop scale dwarf that consideration – Is there a tipping point? 



skc said:


> A mutual fund manager?




Unfortunately nothing mutually beneficial there along the lines of prop for a budding undercapitalised investor – you’re an outright employee unless you’re the owner and owning a fund means retail customers to keep happy/bamboozled....... 

The closest I have seen to a potential business model is Marketocracy in the US but nothing in Aus that I'm aware of.


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 August 2013)

craft said:


> Thanks for taking the time SKC
> 
> Your description of capital requirement from the shops perspective is pretty much how I assumed it would be which prompted the question as to whether you could run your own capital along side.
> 
> ...




In fact the capital requirements of the prop shop to back a good trader dramatically drops as time goes on. As you don't take all your profit each month, and some take hardly any, the trader actually becomes self funding to some degree by leaving his/her share of profit with the firm.


----------



## craft (2 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> In fact the capital requirements of the prop shop to back a good trader dramatically drops as time goes on. As you don't take all your profit each month, and some take hardly any, the trader actually becomes self funding to some degree by leaving his/her share of profit with the firm.




So you can leave profit in? I sort of read SKC's response as you can't. I would think if you can apply your skills to your own capital at the same time its all the better for the trader (bar possible counterparty risk)


----------



## kid hustlr (2 August 2013)

I assume the only reason not to take all your profit each month would be to smooth your 'monthly equity/payment curve'?

I cant think of any other reason not take your payment as its just idle money not earning you a return? tax perhaps?


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 August 2013)

craft said:


> So you can leave profit in? I sort of read SKC's response as you can't. I would think if you can apply your skills to your own capital at the same time its all the better for the trader (bar possible counterparty risk)




Oh no they prefer you to leave it in. If you were a bit sceptical you would say cuz it is funding their operation. But i see it as building a physiological buffer against draw-down. Its probably somewhere in between but you don't want to have a bad start to the month and be looking at a daily account balance in negative.

Oh but as skc did say you don't have a capital base to work off. You don't use tradition risk management position sizing. in fact you blow the F out of the typical positions sizing models. So it is not a matter of if you have "trading capital" in there or not as that has nothing to do with position size. They don't say ok you max size is 10 contracts + 3 from your own capital.


----------



## craft (2 August 2013)

kid hustlr said:


> I assume the only reason not to take all your profit each month would be to smooth your 'monthly equity/payment curve'?
> 
> I cant think of any other reason not take your payment as its just idle money not earning you a return? tax perhaps?




Surely net funding requirements would enter into the calculations for the Prop shop when negotiating profit split.

- - - Updated - - -



Trembling Hand said:


> Oh no they prefer you to leave it in. If you were a bit sceptical you would say cuz it is funding their operation. But i see it as building a physiological buffer against draw-down. Its probably somewhere in between but you don't want to have a bad start to the month and be looking at a daily account balance in negative.
> 
> Oh but as skc did say you don't have a capital base to work off. You don't use tradition risk management position sizing. in fact you blow the F out of the typical positions sizing models. So it is not a matter of if you have "trading capital" in there or not as that has nothing to do with position size. They don't say ok you max size is 10 contracts + 3 from your own capital.




Thanks

Sorry for the questions - just find it an interesting business and don't know much about it.

Cheers


----------



## skc (2 August 2013)

craft said:


> Do you get enough time and remaining emotional energy to still maximise your own capital? If you can’t do both adequately does the potential of the prop scale dwarf that consideration – Is there a tipping point?




Whether a prop trader finds enough time and effort to invest his own capital is really no different to any other employees in other industries. Perrhaps there's a small element of "Having stared at the market all day do I really want to analyse more investments?". But in actual fact my trading activities and thinking are completely different in mindset to investing. 

I have worked in several different careers prior to trading and actually I find trading to require the LEAST emotional energy. 



Trembling Hand said:


> As you don't take all your profit each month, and some take hardly any, the trader actually becomes self funding to some degree by leaving his/her share of profit with the firm.




I take most of my profit out every month, leaving enough in there for a bad week. But yes it suk when you look at a negative number in your account balance. But then I just look at my account equity curve over the longer term and tell myself it's just a blip.


----------



## aussiefx (7 August 2013)

Another Propex trader here. Whilst I feel their in house training could do with some refinement there is no denying they success they are having with their trainees.


----------



## Trembling Hand (7 August 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Another Propex trader here. Whilst I feel their in house training could do with some refinement there is no denying they success they are having with their trainees.




Hi there aussiefx. What are you trading? Are you in one of their offices?


----------



## aussiefx (7 August 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Hi there aussiefx. What are you trading? Are you in one of their offices?




I'm trading bonds and equities currently. Yep I trade from the office and looking at doing a few nights at home soon.


----------



## CanOz (7 August 2013)

aussiefx said:


> I'm trading bonds and equities currently. Yep I trade from the office and looking at doing a few nights at home soon.




Hey, great to hear you made the cut aussiefx...

You spreading bonds or trading outright directional?


----------



## havaiana (9 August 2013)

Just wondering if anyone from the darkside knows or is able to find out for me what sort of minimum live track record in terms of time I should build up before considering trying to get in by way of the back door?  ... so to speak

I know it will depend on a lot of things but even a guesstimate would be good


----------



## Trembling Hand (9 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Just wondering if anyone from the darkside knows or is able to find out for me what sort of minimum live track record in terms of time I should build up before considering trying to get in by way of the back door?  ... so to speak
> 
> I know it will depend on a lot of things but even a guesstimate would be good




Yeah it is very much dependant on market you want to trade and then how much experience you have. Then of course there is also the in the office vs remote problem. I think whatever the answer is its more favourable to be able to be in one of their offices.


----------



## havaiana (14 August 2013)

Thanks TH

Got another question for any of the prop guys, is there anything in particular your shops are looking for at the moment that could help aspiring candidates get a leg up?

It seems spreading interest could give people an advantage at the moment, anything else? Which asset classes should people be looking at and which ones should they skip (for Australian/Asian shops)?


----------



## db94 (22 August 2013)

ive got a question:

Im currently at uni studying economics and finance at sydney uni. My worry is that ive been hearing that a lot of traders need to know how to program. How much truth is there too this? I just cant get my head around how exactly coding is used to trade as well. 

Would you recommend me learning coding like C++ or java, maybe VBA or even how to use matlab. I might change my major and do computer science

thanks


----------



## CanOz (22 August 2013)

I reckon the Spreaders are all arm chairs economists so I'd think it would do you some good to learn that...especially trading the curve.

Can't understand why a Prop Shop would need coders unless it was designing algoes..


----------



## skc (22 August 2013)

db94 said:


> ive got a question:
> 
> Im currently at uni studying economics and finance at sydney uni. My worry is that ive been hearing that a lot of traders need to know how to program. How much truth is there too this? I just cant get my head around how exactly coding is used to trade as well.
> 
> ...




Not all trading methods require coding. I am sure having some coding skill wouldn't hurt, but it's not a pre-requisite. I personally don't use any coding in my trading... I do use a progrom that someone else has coded, however.

I wouldn't go changing uni major just on the outside chance that coding skill will help you land a job in trading. You still need to know how to trade no matter how good your coding skill is. In other words, if you can't trade, coding isn't going to help your prospects. And if you are looking to be a quant in a investment bank or something... that's a whole different category altogether.

For a young computer literate, well learned person as yourself, you should be able to teach yourself coding as you explore different ways to trade.


----------



## db94 (22 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> I reckon the Spreaders are all arm chairs economists so I'd think it would do you some good to learn that...especially trading the curve.
> 
> Can't understand why a Prop Shop would need coders unless it was designing algoes..




I think I may have been reading info from America. Although the prop shop Optiver (or maybe tibra), stated that they want more maths and computer science than say finance and economics.

I guess it would depend on what youre trading and the company


----------



## CanOz (22 August 2013)

db94 said:


> I think I may have been reading info from America. Although the prop shop Optiver (or maybe tibra), stated that they want more maths and computer science than say finance and economics.
> 
> I guess it would depend on what youre trading and the company




Optiver are market makers...maybe Tibra too. Do you want to trade or just add liquidity?

Find out what SMB's or Propex's qualifications are. Uni not needed i think...


----------



## db94 (22 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Optiver are market makers...maybe Tibra too. Do you want to trade or just add liquidity?
> 
> Find out what SMB's or Propex's qualifications are. Uni not needed i think...





Just trade. I have actually spoken to Guy Bower once or twice from Propex (very helpful) about working as a trader. He said coding can help but isnt that essential. Ill look into SMB, do you have a link, I only got a website for a firm in New York. Are there any other discretionary trading firms? 

Thanks


----------



## CanOz (22 August 2013)

Check out 







> http://www.prop-traders.net/




Can't seem to get it to load but they had a list of Prop Shops around the world...


----------



## db94 (22 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Check out
> 
> Can't seem to get it to load but they had a list of Prop Shops around the world...




thanks


----------



## SilverRanger (13 February 2014)

Hi,

Is it normal for prop shops to have a stop loss clause whereby any losses beyond this amount will be fully payable by the trader himself?


----------



## kid hustlr (13 February 2014)

I'd say so.

For what its worth its just good business to have that clause. 

If you were the type of guy who tried hard over a number of months/years, slowly bled away and then decided to walk away and you were slightly under your clause I HIGHLY doubt they would come after you.

If you walked in there, traded above your size and lost a lot of money (selling volatility or something) then they might come after you.

In effect it's to stop guys coming in and taking a 'free hit'


----------



## skc (13 February 2014)

SilverRanger said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is it normal for prop shops to have a stop loss clause whereby any losses beyond this amount will be fully payable by the trader himself?




Yes if your losses were the result of breaching your contract... e.g. Not stopping when the limit is reached, size too large, trading drunk etc.

I don't know what happens if it's a result of, say... the exchange went down and market moved adversely while that happened, or a large gap in an overnight equity position, or a fat finger!


----------



## Valued (13 February 2014)

What do prop shops do to manage straddles? What happens if one person shorts the Nikkei and another goes long? Is there some system in place to stop this or do they take both of these trades? 

Also, do prop shops only have day traders sitting at screens all day or do they for example have larger more up stairs type traders pulling big volume/money on bigger trades that might last days or weeks? E.g. would a prop shop start risking 1% or 2% of their entire capital on very big EOD trades?


----------



## SilverRanger (13 February 2014)

skc said:


> Yes if your losses were the result of breaching your contract... e.g. Not stopping when the limit is reached, size too large, trading drunk etc.
> 
> I don't know what happens if it's a result of, say... the exchange went down and market moved adversely while that happened, or a large gap in an overnight equity position, or a fat finger!




Yes, it is your second scenario that I am worried about. When that happens the stop loss clause protects the prop shop, not the trader. The downside risk is uncapped and is on you, while the upside is shared, doesn't sound like a fair game to me.


----------



## skc (13 February 2014)

Valued said:


> What do prop shops do to manage straddles? What happens if one person shorts the Nikkei and another goes long? Is there some system in place to stop this or do they take both of these trades?




Don't know but I think any position will be managed at an individual level and at an aggregate firm level. You don't want the whole firm going long Nikkei even when every individual trader is within their limit. Although I doubt this would happen just based on pure probability.



Valued said:


> Also, do prop shops only have day traders sitting at screens all day or do they for example have larger more up stairs type traders pulling big volume/money on bigger trades that might last days or weeks?




Yes. There are traders who hold days/weeks, especially spreaders.



Valued said:


> E.g. would a prop shop start risking 1% or 2% of their entire capital on very big EOD trades?




I highly doubt it.



SilverRanger said:


> Yes, it is your second scenario that I am worried about. When that happens the stop loss clause protects the prop shop, not the trader. The downside risk is uncapped and is on you, while the upside is shared, doesn't sound like a fair game to me.




The downside risk is not uncapped. If you operate within the parameters set for you then your downside risk is $0. 

If your manager says you can hold $1m FGE and it gaps 90% down on you, I don't know if they can come after you. Sure you and your manager probably won't have a job anymore, but you operated within the parameters set for you so it's not a breach of contract.


----------



## SilverRanger (13 February 2014)

skc said:


> The downside risk is not uncapped. If you operate within the parameters set for you then your downside risk is $0.
> 
> If your manager says you can hold $1m FGE and it gaps 90% down on you, I don't know if they can come after you. Sure you and your manager probably won't have a job anymore, but you operated within the parameters set for you so it's not a breach of contract.




Hmm...looks like it all depends on the contract you sign then. From the one that I see you will be liable for losses beyond this limit, even if you operated within the parameters (and hence my question on whether this sort of clause is normal).


----------



## skc (13 February 2014)

SilverRanger said:


> Hmm...looks like it all depends on the contract you sign then. From the one that I see you will be liable for losses beyond this limit, even if you operated within the parameters (and hence my question on whether this sort of clause is normal).




On the bottom left corner of this site you can download a pdf "Guide to Prop Trading" which talks about this issue.

http://www.propex.com.au/about-us/about-propex

Other shops may be different of course.


----------



## Trembling Hand (13 February 2014)

SilverRanger said:


> Hmm...looks like it all depends on the contract you sign then. From the one that I see you will be liable for losses beyond this limit, even if you operated within the parameters (and hence my question on whether this sort of clause is normal).




There is much better deals than that. If you trade within limits (and to be frank they are very large limits and not fixed in stone) there should be no way you are asked to cough of cash. Even when a disaster hits.

Be careful of places that look like a prop shop but are really just trying to sell training & earn rebates on commish.


----------



## skc (19 February 2014)

To all the aspiring traders out there... check this out.

http://www.seek.com.au/job/25826034



> Australia's leading proprietary trading firm is now recruiting Trainee Equities Traders for its Gold Coast office.
> 
> We provide professional traders with the best facilities and support network to build their trading careers. Our management team has decades of trading experience in the futures and equities industries and have been funding and training successful traders for over 10 years.
> 
> ...


----------



## Quantmil (2 March 2014)

Hi Guys,

I am quant trader currently running a few automated strategies on US Equities. What I do is about 90% automated.

I understand that Propex focuses on discretionary trading at least in the training so my question is, could I as a mostly automated trader get a spot there?


----------



## skc (3 March 2014)

Quantmil said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am quant trader currently running a few automated strategies on US Equities. What I do is about 90% automated.
> 
> I understand that Propex focuses on discretionary trading at least in the training so my question is, could I as a mostly automated trader get a spot there?




If you have a method that is profitable and robust, they will certainly be interested to hear what you have to offer. You may have to adapt your algos etc to their systems (I have no idea what you use or what they use for US equities) but it should not be a deal killer.

If you are an experienced trader (which sounds like you are) then apply through Propex's website under experienced trader. The ad above is for relatively less experienced trainees.


----------



## Quantmil (11 March 2014)

I applied and they are interested so far but I believe there is a bit of uncertainty at the moment about the automation.

What I would like to do anyway is move more towards discretionary trading for several personal reasons.


----------



## CanOz (11 March 2014)

Quantmil said:


> I applied and they are interested so far but I believe there is a bit of uncertainty at the moment about the automation.
> 
> What I would like to do anyway is move more towards discretionary trading for several personal reasons.




Is it possible to use your automated systems edge as a statistical edge in your discretionary trading?


----------



## skc (12 March 2014)

Quantmil said:


> I applied and they are interested so far but I believe there is a bit of uncertainty at the moment about the automation.
> 
> What I would like to do anyway is move more towards discretionary trading for several personal reasons.




Nice one. I Am sure there are plenty of intellectual stuff that is transferrable... just stuff in general principles of risk management etc. 

It's worth getting yourself in the door and funded first, and work on the automation part while they let you dabble in discretionary stuff... pretty good reward:risk imo.

Good luck either way.


----------



## DJG (12 March 2014)

Just got this email for you Sydney & Gold Coast people:


----------



## VSntchr (12 March 2014)

I got it too Dangaff.

It crosses my mind from time to time to apply..but so far am happy as I am. Something that I may do in the future though.


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## Quantmil (13 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Is it possible to use your automated systems edge as a statistical edge in your discretionary trading?




Yes that is exactly what I hope to do with Propex.


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## skc (31 July 2014)

Today marks the 2-year anniversary since I joined a prop shop. I've decided to wirte a short commemorative post in numbers.

2717: Number of trades completed

61.95%: Percent of winning trades

21 out of 22: Months profitable

2: Number of months on holidays/paternity leave

28: Longest drawdown duration in days

5: Number of trading limit increases

12: Muliple of current trading limit relative to trading my own capital

10: Hours per day trading / researching / analysing / posting

14: Brokers report read every day

41: Max number of positions held overnight

4: Number of fat finger trades 

2: Number of years ago when I fired this innocent post to TH.



skc said:


> TH is this the firm you are with at the moment?




10,000,000: Thanks to all the fellow forum members whom I have interacted with. You have educated, encouraged, supported, challenged and entertained me through my journey.


----------



## SuperGlue (1 August 2014)

> 21 out of 22: Months profitable



This is more than excellent.  
Wish I could get half of your profitable months.



> 5: Number of trading limit increases



5 increases in two years, you must be the top gun of the prop shop.  
No way for the ordinary trader to achieve trading limit increases except from a prop shop.

SKC, were you performing as good before joining prop shop?


----------



## VSntchr (1 August 2014)

skc said:


> Today marks the 2-year anniversary since I joined a prop shop. I've decided to wirte a short commemorative post in numbers.
> 
> 2717: Number of trades completed
> 
> ...




Well done SKC, I love reading all your posts and I am glad that your wisdom extends to success with your trading operations.

Some solid results there!


----------



## McLovin (1 August 2014)

Great stuff, skc. 

Well done.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2014)

skc said:


> Today marks the 2-year anniversary since I joined a prop shop. I've decided to wirte a short commemorative post in numbers.
> 
> 2717: Number of trades completed
> 
> ...




Good job! Going by the brokers reports and overnight trades, and the TH reference, I take it you're trading stocks with Propex?


----------



## CanOz (1 August 2014)

Truly inspirational results SKC, a great success story!


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## Julia (1 August 2014)

Congratulations, skc.  That's a great result.
I don't mean to be intrusive and just ignore the question if you wish, but I'd be interested to know the reasons you prefer trading at the prop shop rather than doing your own thing at home?


----------



## skc (1 August 2014)

Thanks everyone for the kind words. 



SuperGlue said:


> 5 increases in two years, you must be the top gun of the prop shop.
> No way for the ordinary trader to achieve trading limit increases except from a prop shop.




Or they started me pretty small 



SuperGlue said:


> SKC, were you performing as good before joining prop shop?




Performance (especailly relative performance to say the XJO) was actually better in percentage terms as markets were much more volatile.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> Good job! Going by the brokers reports and overnight trades, and the TH reference, I take it you're trading stocks with Propex?




Yes. I am least unqualified to play in the equities "wading pool".


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## Albert01L (25 August 2014)

Nice comments.


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## skc (25 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Congratulations, skc.  That's a great result.
> I don't mean to be intrusive and just ignore the question if you wish, but I'd be interested to know the reasons you prefer trading at the prop shop rather than doing your own thing at home?




Somehow I missed your question earlier. 

I am trading remotely from home with them. So I retain all the benefits of working from home while gainning the many advantages of working for a prop shop. What I don't get however is the opportunity to sit next to other traders and learn/share/exchange/banter/laugh/swear/drink with them.


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## nulla nulla (26 August 2014)

skc said:


> .....What I don't get however is the opportunity to sit next to other traders and learn/share/exchange/banter/laugh/swear/drink with them.




G'day m8

Well done. Apart from the drinking you can get the rest of the "learn/share/exchange/banter/laugh/swear" here on the ASF forum.


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## investortom (26 August 2014)

Take a look at www.tradeview.com.au - i know they are based in Melbourne and do prop trading.


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## Julia (26 August 2014)

skc said:


> Somehow I missed your question earlier.
> 
> I am trading remotely from home with them. So I retain all the benefits of working from home while gainning the many advantages of working for a prop shop. What I don't get however is the opportunity to sit next to other traders and learn/share/exchange/banter/laugh/swear/drink with them.



Sounds good.  Agree with nulla's suggestion.  I'm not sure whether you seriously like the idea of sitting next to others etc.  or if that bit is tongue in cheek.  Depends how gregarious you are, I guess.


----------



## DJG (23 September 2014)

For Melbourne:

http://www.seek.com.au/job/27306123


----------



## fuzzz (5 October 2014)

Hello, i have a question for aussiefx and skc..

I mostly have experience trading equities and spot forex, those are the 2 instruments i traded the most for around 4-5 years with relatively consistent success in the last 2 years of trading them.  Like every private retail trader it takes a while to build your own capital, so i am at a point now where i would like to take it to the next level and think that prop shops would be the way to go considering all the benefits of joining one of them.  

Aussiefx, as far as i remember after reading the thread, you had a similar story of trading spot forex for around 4 years prior to joining Propex..   so could you trade forex with Propex?  

Skc and Aussifx, you both say that you trade equities through/for Propex..   do you only trade ASX equities? or do you also trade US equities and/or FTSE equities, or any other ones? 

and just in general what instruments does Propex mostly trade or allow/teach to trade for that matter..  equities, futures, forex, currency futures, indexes, bonds?  i remember someone mentioned that you can choose any instrument you want, does that mean they allow and can teach you any of them?

thanks in advance


----------



## skc (5 October 2014)

fuzzz said:


> Hello, i have a question for aussiefx and skc..
> 
> I mostly have experience trading equities and spot forex, those are the 2 instruments i traded the most for around 4-5 years with relatively consistent success in the last 2 years of trading them.  Like every private retail trader it takes a while to build your own capital, so i am at a point now where i would like to take it to the next level and think that prop shops would be the way to go considering all the benefits of joining one of them.
> 
> ...




I don't think Propex has anyone trading FX, although I could be wrong as I don't work in the office and trade in my own little equity bubble. The main instruments are bonds and futures (indexes and commodities). And I think their new trader development courses would be centric around those. It would be surprising if they are able to teach you ANY instrument you choose... that seems impossible in terms of having the expertise available. However, if you are joining as an experienced trader and can over time demonstrate that you know what you are doing, they will probably let you trade most things.

All equity traders as far as I am aware trade on the ASX. I think there may be a guy or two doing ADR arbs etc. 

Let see if aussiefx will respond to you more assuredly. Otherwise, take nothing from what I am saying and just email them yourself to find out.


----------



## CanOz (5 October 2014)

How much capital would it take to open a Prop Trading Firm? Aside from any regulatory costs which may be country specific...

So you'd need some office furniture and hardware - 100k
A rental contract - 50k
Recruitment - 20K
A few months worth of expenses - 20k
Trading capital - 100k per trader

Obviously a business plan would be needed but i am interested in any thoughts here from those with experience or ideas?


----------



## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

fuzzz said:


> and just in general what instruments does Propex mostly trade or allow/teach to trade for that matter..  equities, futures, forex, currency futures, indexes, bonds?  i remember someone mentioned that you can choose any instrument you want, does that mean they allow and can teach you any of them?
> 
> thanks in advance




You would have to trade the FX futures not the spot market. They have no infrastructure for that. And their training program is based around bonds.



CanOz said:


> How much capital would it take to open a Prop Trading Firm? Aside from any regulatory costs which may be country specific...
> 
> So you'd need some office furniture and hardware - 100k
> A rental contract - 50k
> ...




Nah you would need way more than that to do it properly. What happens when you have 10 traders and 4 of them go into a 30g drawdown each and still want to trade the same size? Cut them back to 5 lots and they all walk. Your two top traders want to move 40-50 lots (there is a mil capital just to cover them) and go on a 90/10 split so even though they are killing it you are only getting the crumbs. You could probably bring in some money in ways that help out but when your traders are taking most of the profit its hard to sell the remaining return with all the risk to investors. (though I do have some ideas)

How you going to pay the office manager, risk guys and IT their wages for the first 9 years that you don't make money? 

If you are going to go down the line of proper risk infrastructure with TT/CQG you are looking at way more $'s for set up. 

You are probably going to have to chew a fair amount in legals setup as well, depending on what country you are doing it in.


----------



## CanOz (6 October 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> You would have to trade the FX futures not the spot market. They have no infrastructure for that. And their training program is based around bonds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well I had to ask didn't i!

So seriously, what would be the time that it takes to get profitable? 9 years is unacceptable. If you can't get profitable in three to four years then no one would ever try this.

So how Does one find partners that are interested in this? 

Is this usually a thing that a few trading mates finally get around to doing after years of success themselves?


----------



## TheUnknown (6 October 2014)

9 years lol thats funny and 90/10 is a joke.


----------



## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

CanOz said:


> So seriously, what would be the time that it takes to get profitable? 9 years is unacceptable. If you can't get profitable in three to four years then no one would ever try this.




I'm just guessing but you could probably run it the same way you get stats on any system. Whats the Max drawdown and how long. Remember Prop shops trade traders as a system just like traders trade trades. For survival its basically the same.



CanOz said:


> So how Does one find partners that are interested in this?
> 
> Is this usually a thing that a few trading mates finally get around to doing after years of success themselves?




I think that's how most start. As to how to get OPM for a prop shop that's a discussion for off line. 



TheUnknown said:


> 90/10 is a joke.




Is it?


----------



## TheUnknown (6 October 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> I'm just guessing but you could probably run it the same way you get stats on any system. Whats the Max drawdown and how long. Remember Prop shops trade traders as a system just like traders trade trades. For survival its basically the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well if i had a prop shop and trader wanted to gamble my money for a return of 10% while he keeps 90% i would tell em to jump.


----------



## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

TheUnknown said:


> Well if i had a prop shop and trader wanted to gamble my money for a return of 10% while he keeps 90% i would tell em to jump.




And you would end up with all the really really really good traders doing just that - jumping ship. You would lose your month in, month out, year after year profitable traders and be left with the cr@p. Where would that leave your biz?


----------



## CanOz (6 October 2014)

It's really all risk and return again. The most reliable less risky traders are going to return the least but most consistent profits. The most risky traders may return higher profits or higher losses but either way they're going to be less consistent until they become good enough to demand more of the share. I suspect that somewhere in the middle there will be traders that are developing and returning good profits before you give them more split. I'm starting to see the essence of managing the traders so you keep the best, get rid of the worst and make sure everyone gets paid fair but not too early.....very interesting.

Would there be some advantage in developing your own traders from scratch and binding then into a contract that optimises this progression towards less risk, less reward?


----------



## TheUnknown (6 October 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> And you would end up with all the really really really good traders doing just that - jumping ship. You would lose your month in, month out, year after year profitable traders and be left with the cr@p. Where would that leave your biz?




The way i see it is a good trader wouldn't even bother with a prop shop. whoever is going 90/10 is nuts IMO.

70/30
60/40 

Sounds reasonable and thats for a REAL PRO that is consistant.


----------



## CanOz (6 October 2014)

TheUnknown said:


> The way i see it is a good trader wouldn't even bother with a prop shop. whoever is going 90/10 is nuts IMO.
> 
> 70/30
> 60/40
> ...




The way I see it your lucky that a prop trader is even responding to your posts.

I'm trying to have a decent discussion with an experienced prop trader about a serious and very probable proposal and yet you keep interjecting with your uninformed opinions. Sit back, relax and learn something.

CanOz


----------



## TheUnknown (6 October 2014)

CanOz said:


> The way I see it your lucky that a prop trader is even responding to your posts.
> 
> I'm trying to have a decent discussion with an experienced prop trader about a serious and very probable proposal and yet you keep interjecting with your uninformed opinions. Sit back, relax and learn something.
> 
> CanOz




LOL


----------



## CanOz (6 October 2014)

I'm assuming allot of what the prop shops do to manage risk is also around determining what markets are traded. Perhaps it's less risky to have the new traders spreading bonds or trading equities. Use the gun traders directionally trading indices....when recruiting focus on x amount of trainees for spreading and hiring guns with track records for the stable. It may not look exactly like that but the strategy would have to consider these elements.


----------



## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

TheUnknown said:


> The way i see it is a good trader wouldn't even bother with a prop shop.




Yeah there is zero advantage we are all just crappy losers hoping one day to be a retail trader.


----------



## skyQuake (6 October 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> ...hoping one day to be a retail trader.





LOL

Reaching for the stars I see


----------



## fuzzz (7 October 2014)

skc said:


> I don't think Propex has anyone trading FX, although I could be wrong as I don't work in the office and trade in my own little equity bubble. The main instruments are bonds and futures (indexes and commodities). And I think their new trader development courses would be centric around those. It would be surprising if they are able to teach you ANY instrument you choose... that seems impossible in terms of having the expertise available. However, if you are joining as an experienced trader and can over time demonstrate that you know what you are doing, they will probably let you trade most things.
> 
> All equity traders as far as I am aware trade on the ASX. I think there may be a guy or two doing ADR arbs etc.
> 
> Let see if aussiefx will respond to you more assuredly. Otherwise, take nothing from what I am saying and just email them yourself to find out.





Thanks for your reply SKC.  And thanks to everyone who made this informative thread a great read that it is!

Just have a couple of more general questions if you don't mind..

When you started with them and were an already existing retail equities trader and i assume wanted to stick to the instrument you knew best, is that kind of what you did and just got a hold of them and told them of your preference and they just let you continue on with the equities, instead of trying to teach you commodities and indexes futures?

And also, through their system/broker, are you able to short ASX equities in your regular trading?  Reason i ask is because my ozzy broker for ASX equities doesn't let me short and as far as i know a lot of them don't provide that service, unlike in US for example where its very common to short stocks.


----------



## skc (7 October 2014)

fuzzz said:


> When you started with them and were an already existing retail equities trader and i assume wanted to stick to the instrument you knew best, is that kind of what you did and just got a hold of them and told them of your preference and they just let you continue on with the equities, instead of trying to teach you commodities and indexes futures?




Equities is a separate desk and there's no mixing between the two as far as I know. If you say you want to join as experienced equities trader, that's what you'd be trading. They'd give me some SPI limit to do the occassional hedging if I need it but that's as close to futrues as I'd get.



fuzzz said:


> And also, through their system/broker, are you able to short ASX equities in your regular trading?  Reason i ask is because my ozzy broker for ASX equities doesn't let me short and as far as i know a lot of them don't provide that service, unlike in US for example where its very common to short stocks.




Plenty of shorts available. It would not be a very good prop shop if you can't short. Aussie retail brokers are pretty limited in general, but things do improve on the insto side.


----------



## fuzzz (7 October 2014)

Thanks skc..   i am planning on getting a hold of them at the start of next year, just have some other commitments at the moment and want to build my trading record a bit more...   will post and share my experience on here as i go along


----------



## rb250660 (9 October 2014)

Here's an open ended question for you guys.

How much capital do they give new traders, say from beginner to experienced? Ball park...


----------



## skc (9 October 2014)

rb250660 said:


> Here's an open ended question for you guys.
> 
> How much capital do they give new traders, say from beginner to experienced? Ball park...




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=11988&page=13&p=787079&viewfull=1#post787079


----------



## fiftyeight (9 October 2014)

I am just learning/fluffing around at the moment, but IF I was to get serious and IF I was to be any good, what do Props look for in trading experience?

R:R
P&L
% Return
Draw down
X amount of years trading
Etc, etc .......

I assume a combination of all of the above, but is there anything more important and what kind of time frame will they be looking at, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years of history?


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 October 2014)

fiftyeight said:


> I am just learning/fluffing around at the moment, but IF I was to get serious and IF I was to be any good, what do Props look for in trading experience?
> 
> R:R
> P&L
> ...




I've said many times, % return is not that important as its normally a function of leverage just as much as luck and/or good trading. They want traders who are profitable and want to step up size. It's not that complicated. Just getting the first part seems hard enough.


----------



## tr8de (18 November 2014)

Hi all, 

Is anyone have experience with  following prop shops in Australia.

Would  be interesting to hear from anyone  who  completed their training  or already trading with one of the firm.

Epoch is also running some  competition and  they  are promising the winner is going to get funded.

http://www.traders4traders.com/

and

http://epochacademy.com.au/

Thanks,


----------



## VSntchr (18 November 2014)

tr8de said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Is anyone have experience with  following prop shops in Australia.
> 
> ...




Look more like companies that exist to make profits by having people pay for their 'training'...there are far more reputable places around AFAIK. Propex would be one.


----------



## whackthebid (17 December 2014)

VSntchr said:


> Look more like companies that exist to make profits by having people pay for their 'training'...there are far more reputable places around AFAIK. Propex would be one.




I have checked out Epoch Academys website and on their website they have a competition which says you win training with them if you finish top. However when you click on the competition link on the side menu it says the competition is for a position at their company and 25k to trade with. 

Not sure which one is right but I guess they would change it to just a training program since anyone could find someone experienced in Futures trading to help them with the simulation. I am assuming the training program is the same one they offer for about $1000 on their website.


----------



## joselopezde (24 February 2015)

What are the differences between Propex and Aliom?

Which of these two prop firms would suit better for an 'outright' trader?

Thanks in advance


----------



## prophesa (26 June 2015)

Has anyone dealt with Tradeview.com.au?


----------



## minwa (26 June 2015)

prophesa said:


> Has anyone dealt with Tradeview.com.au?




Which part specifically ? 

I had a chat with them last year re prop trading, Rob seems like a nice guy. Havn't dealt with them further we couldn't come to an agreement, they didn't demand anything unreasonable though. 

If about the coaching/courses I'd think twice about spending a few thousand $ for trading education, with any provider.

They are mostly on the automated side. I beleive their fund made 70% in 2013 & 25% in 2014 upto about Aug, not sure what the year ended at.


----------



## prophesa (26 June 2015)

minwa said:


> Which part specifically ?




Training.
I was looking at doing the education course with them and want to make sure they are the real deal. They seem legit but there are pretty of scams out there so I just wanted to see if anyone has dealt with them.


----------



## skc (20 November 2015)

prophesa said:


> Has anyone dealt with Tradeview.com.au?




http://www.tradeview.com.au/your-tr...ollowUp+Message+4_2014-12-08&utm_medium=email

An interest view with Tradeview's head trader... plus some good links.


----------



## OmegaTrader (20 July 2016)

Hi ! 

I would be interested if anyone has information or experience on the current state of Prop opportunities for trainees.

I am a current Economics and finance grad with a keen interest in markets.

I have found the two main discretionary traders are Propex and Genesis(which is a merger of Aliom and Eprop).

As for Quants the two mainstream I found are IMC and Optiver.

I am ok at maths and programming but not good enough to be a quant 


Cheers

Omega


----------



## RowanC (20 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Hi !
> 
> I would be interested if anyone has information or experience on the current state of Prop opportunities for trainees.
> 
> ...




In terms of the discretionary firms I would strongly suggest you look at Propex over Aliom (Genesis). They have a better system for the new traders and I personally feel you would have a much better chance of success there.

However the type of trading both of these firms offer grads is very competitive, in that you spend your days fighting for queue position and fills across mostly Australian and US interest rate products. These firms will most likely not pay you a wage to learn and it is really sink or swim. You can make it, but it's tough. They take on a lot of traders so in some ways there's nothing to lose to give it a go.

If you are a programmer then IMC and Optiver are clearly better options. These firms will be tougher to get into though.


----------



## OmegaTrader (20 July 2016)

Thanks for the quick response RowanC.

Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.

Any recent insights or experiences you have to offer on the discretionary trading process  would be welcome

Do your work for Propex or have a commission deal? haha  Jokes.

I suppose caveat emptor would apply here. If you wanna be a trader be prepared to suffer. 

You bought into it.
You didn't prepare to be successful too bad.

From a current utilitarian aspect it still more rational to take a 9-5, then be a trainee.

But.....

You can't choose what you are interested in. 

So lucky for supportive parents.



Still, information on how to prepare or any other relevant details would be useful.

I would rather wait and prepare , then jump straight in.


Cheers

Omega


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thanks for the quick response RowanC.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.
> 
> ...




Why not open an account and try to figure out what it is that they do at prop shops? Sounds like good prep to me...


----------



## RowanC (21 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thanks for the quick response RowanC.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.
> 
> ...





Hey Omega

These style of prop firms are basically all based around reading the order book and scalping. It's been a few years since I've been involved with either but they are similar.

The first thing I would do would be to start learning the basics of reading the orderbook. There's a guy called John Grady from nobsdaytrading. He has an ebook. Get a hold of that.

Take a free trial of Xtrader and bring up a couple of DOMs. Maybe the Bund or ZN would be good to start with. Start looking for the buying and selling. That's the name of the game.

I believe Propex would have you starting out trading outright futures with an option to move into spreads. Aliom starts you out on spreads - but tough ones.

In terms of getting into the training program, I'd start brushing up on the mental maths and brainteaser type questions. Search whirlpool and I think you'll find a good example of the questions you'll likely face.

If you are solid at mental maths and show an interest in trading there's a strong chance you'll get in.

My advice would be to try for Propex and learn to trade spreads. Outrights are tough and rely a ton on news and quirky little trades. Spreads I find are far better. I personally find the Aussie products tough in that they are slow moving like the yield curve or STIRs. XT/ZN would be a really good place to start.

If you can program I'd take a look at R and Python. R certainly is a handy tool for modelling spreads and back testing your ideas, that you can then apply to XT/ZN type trades. Quantstrat is a great package.

Good luck.


----------



## OmegaTrader (21 July 2016)

Thank you Canoz for replying and a double thank you to RowanC for the details.

I think will take both of your advice.

Having other peoples insights can allow for more directed approach and easier decision making.

Any other knowledge is welcome 

My plan is to research scalping strategies similar to ones used by the mentioned props.


 Also software and brokers.Demos for a short period. Then to move on to a really small micro account to practice as soon as possible. 

In the background I will be working on my other skills- mental maths, coding, excel,general knowledge  e.t.c. and my own unusual ideas.

After this I will take a punt at applying for prop trading.


I just feel that this is a better to take this time and take a more structured approach learning and practising elements that are relevant to this style of prop trading then to rely on pure luck.

Hopefully then I will have a better chance.


Thanks again.

Omega


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thank you Canoz for replying and a double thank you to RowanC for the details.
> 
> I think will take both of your advice.
> 
> ...




There's a good basic intro to spread trading on Amazon....the books name and author is posted here somewhere, the authors name id Rajan something....i'll try to find more when i'm back home.


----------



## RowanC (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> There's a good basic intro to spread trading on Amazon....the books name and author is posted here somewhere, the authors name id Rajan something....i'll try to find more when i'm back home.




I totally agree with CanOz. A really great intro to spread trading.

http://rajenkapadia.wix.com/tradingthespread


----------



## OmegaTrader (22 July 2016)

Thanks a lot for all the info.

Time to do the hard work


----------



## jmg86 (22 July 2016)

When prop teach you to scalp now days, its not because they actually want you to be a scalper its because they want you to spend your day legging spreads which is 90% of your job.  Getting filled on a bid and offer in an outright market allows you to lean on the entire spread book which is a distinct edge in a market that may trade 1-4 prices a day.  Getting filled on a wider 6 and 9 month spread will get you filled on the bid/offer in the far more competitive 3 months etc etc...

If your going to start trading small on a personal account I would trade STIRS not bonds.  Not because they're better but for a small account getting a DV01 neutral trade can mean you have up to 5 to 4 ratios etc which is quite lumpy for a small account.  STIRS on the other hand are $25 a full tick in their respective currencies and will likely trade 2-4 prices in a a spread market over a month! As such you will be able to build up your size far more consistently as well as hold trades through sessions with a broader view and not be spooked because one leg has gone offered.

Below is the 6 month Eurodollar fly.  It consists of the fly book, two calendar spreads and 3 outright markets which make up the spread.  As you can see on the chart, throughout brexit, the spread only traded 4 ticks the entire month.  Set up something similar in whatever market and just watch how it trades for a few weeks. I.e how does it respond to equity strength, bond strength, currency moves, time of day, do bids and offers trade or does it just lift prices.  Then start going live with 1 lot.  Sim trading is almost useless as half the game is getting filled which isn't accurate in Demo.


----------



## OmegaTrader (23 July 2016)

Hi JMG86

Which platform/ broker would you recommend to do this.

Any resources you could recommend also?


Thanks for the advice mate.

Omega


----------



## CanOz (23 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Hi JMG86
> 
> Which platform/ broker would you recommend to do this.
> 
> ...




That looks like CQG, a pricey 7-800 bucks a month. TT might be able to do this on their new platform, which is cheaper. CQG is the Rolls Royce for spreading now though.


----------



## OmegaTrader (23 July 2016)

Hi Canoz

Thanks for the info.

This seems uneconomical.

It has to be at least cost effective. I know I will lose money during learning but that is why I want to start  micro.

Say I make 20% a year on my total capital after spread/commissions.

Which is very very very very very very unlikely straight away and it could take me 6 months- up to two years to even be profitable.

Given monthly costs: 

At $800 per month I need (800*12)/.2 = $48,000

At $400 per month I need (400*12)/.2 = $24,000

So I need between $24,000 and $48,000 capital.

Not including, money I will lose while learning and extra software/resources.

If I demo then it is a waste of time after I get the basic concepts as per jmg86's comments.

So this is really impracticable unless,



           I can get free/ relatively cheap software +  data etc
 or

           Do some of the analysis myself with more basic data+software,
 or 

           Use similar strategies that are simpler or more geared to a micro account


Keeping in mind that if the skills are not relevant to the current prop market mentioned.

Then... 

I am only doing it for fun/ self-learning and it would not help me in a direct way to have a better chance in being successful at a prop.

Just some of my thoughts.

Cheers

Omega


----------



## RowanC (24 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Hi Canoz
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> ...





Omega

I think in the long run the most significant obstacle that a trader faces (of which there are many) are commissions.

This is only magnified when you start trading spreads. That's actually a reason prop shops like them as they get a cut of the turnover.

To trade the interest rate futures in Australia can also be tricky as there are a limited amount of brokers that offer them.

What might be a good option is something like AMP futures, where you can get XTrader for free and instead of a monthly fee in the range of $400-600, you can pay an additional 50c per contract or something like that.

Now this isn't ideal obviously, but in terms of getting a feel for trading these type of products this might be a good option to start with. Plus with a funded account you get an unlimited demo which will have the products that you want.

That's what I would try.


----------



## OmegaTrader (24 July 2016)

RowanC said:


> Omega
> 
> I think in the long run the most significant obstacle that a trader faces (of which there are many) are commissions.
> 
> ...





Thanks TrentCroad

That sounds much more reasonable.

enough talking from me

just do it

and do it 

and do it.



Cheers


----------



## jmg86 (25 July 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Hi JMG86
> 
> Which platform/ broker would you recommend to do this.
> 
> Any resources you could recommend also?




A book by Stephen Aikin called Trading STIR Futures: An Introduction to Short-Term Interest Rate Futures is pretty much all you need to learn the ins and outs of how these markets trade. 

I terms of platforms I would first exhaust all the free demos from TT and CQG.  In doing so you will get at least 6 weeks worth of free platform to trial on.  Once you have an account you could do the above stuff using CQG Q-trader which i think is $50 odd a month.  All of the above info and order books is available through whats called a spread matrix so really you can get away with one screen easily if you wanted.  Set up accounts with the bucket shops for charts of currencies etc and you should have enough to get a good head start for prop.

Your not going to get rich doing this, punting spreads for $25 a tick but you will will learn with skin in the game and thus expedite your learning unlike sim trading for months on end in an equity market only to be unable to pull the trigger when going live because of your small account.


----------



## OmegaTrader (25 July 2016)

jmg86 said:


> A book by Stephen Aikin called Trading STIR Futures: An Introduction to Short-Term Interest Rate Futures is pretty much all you need to learn the ins and outs of how these markets trade.
> 
> I terms of platforms I would first exhaust all the free demos from TT and CQG.  In doing so you will get at least 6 weeks worth of free platform to trial on.  Once you have an account you could do the above stuff using CQG Q-trader which i think is $50 odd a month.  All of the above info and order books is available through whats called a spread matrix so really you can get away with one screen easily if you wanted.  Set up accounts with the bucket shops for charts of currencies etc and you should have enough to get a good head start for prop.
> 
> Your not going to get rich doing this, punting spreads for $25 a tick but you will will learn with skin in the game and thus expedite your learning unlike sim trading for months on end in an equity market only to be unable to pull the trigger when going live because of your small account.




Thanks a lot for the tips jmg86.

That is the idea. To get feel on micro without losing my life savings to subscriptions, fees and loses  lol

 Then try for prop with some experience.

Rather than try to wing it.

Cheers 

Omega


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## CanOz (5 September 2016)

There is a firm in the UK that will provide prop style clearing fees and risk management. I'll have more info soon but it looks quite promising. You can trade your own capital and they take no split. They also fund traders that want more capital to size up. Obviously a split involved there.

Www.mindfultraders.net

I've got a call tomorrow afternoon with them.


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## minwa (5 September 2016)

CanOz said:


> There is a firm in the UK that will provide prop style clearing fees and risk management. I'll have more info soon but it looks quite promising. You can trade your own capital and they take no split. They also fund traders that want more capital to size up. Obviously a split involved there.
> 
> Www.mindfultraders.net
> 
> I've got a call tomorrow afternoon with them.




I look for red flags first thing in this industry is guilty until proven innocent - you know my views so take it with a grain of salt.

*"Mindful Traders LTD is an Introducing Broker which has a unique arrangement which allows for Independent Traders to gain the benefits of Risk Managed Accounts with lower commissions just like Prop Traders."*

OK so they are a Intro Bro with the brokers acting as risk managers. Sounds to me like a full time broker.

*

Trading Platforms (Pricing Per Month)
EasyScreen Neon Trader - £200
CQG Integrated Client, Q Trader and Trader – Various pricing please ask for details
TT XTrader Standard - Starting at £460 with 1 Exchange, 2 Exchanges at £490
TT X Trader Pro - £1200 

CME Products
Emini S&P – Starting $1.45 per lot
Emini Nasdaq - Starting $1.45 per lot
Mini Dow – Starting $1.45 per lot
Crude Oil (CL) – Starting $1.85 per lot
*

Commissions and monthly fees much higher than what I get from IB - so you really are just paying for their risk management and coaching.

They use a .net domain, while the .com is available for purchase. Broken links on site, site layout is obviously a typical template by popular web developers. Not very professional for a prop/brokerage firm. 

Their address 20-22 Wenlock Road London N1 7GU . 

Google this and you get a virtual office site. "Based in the heart of Central London, Virtual Office MadeSimple is run by a team of dedicated people committed to making sure we exceed our client’s expectations.
With services including mail forwarding, telephone answering, meeting rooms and fax forwarding, a business anywhere in the world can get the full benefit of a central London address." https://www.londonpresence.com/about-us/ 

You also get 2 "businesses" previously registered at the same building that are in trouble. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ulti-million-pound-companies-into-liquidation

Doesn't sound like a ideal address for a reputable prop/brokerage firm.

Now on to the person behind it, Kam Dhadwar. He runs http://www.thetradingframework.com/ . A trading education site (which also uses the same web template as the brokerage site.)

Registered address is Kemp House, 152 - 160 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX. Google this, surprise surprise another virtual office. https://www.yourvirtualofficelondon.co.uk/

Kam also runs http://www.findyoself.com/ - a very typical internet marketing sales site. Enter your email address to change your life. 

Everything looks and leads back to a trading "salesman" - not necessarily bad if his stuff is good. That I have no info on and cant comment on, I just think it's a bit misleading to associate the prop firm term to their business.


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## CanOz (5 September 2016)

How did you get those rates from IB? I thought the Eurex rates were pretty good.


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## minwa (5 September 2016)

CanOz said:


> How did you get those rates from IB? I thought the Eurex rates were pretty good.




I only compared CME


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## CanOz (5 September 2016)

minwa said:


> I only compared CME




Hmm, I'll have to see what TH is getting through IB for eurex.


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## aussiefx (31 March 2017)

Thought id give this a little bump. I traded with Propex for 2 years and left due to personal matters. However, they're looking more promising (son's health) and i've been trading myself for over 20 months and left my employment in February to persue it again full time.

Propex taught me a lot and very grateful. I've heard from a friend that the 10:10 is now just full of algos and spoofing?


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## hedgedhog (16 April 2017)

aussiefx said:


> Thought id give this a little bump. I traded with Propex for 2 years and left due to personal matters. However, they're looking more promising (son's health) and i've been trading myself for over 20 months and left my employment in February to persue it again full time.
> 
> Propex taught me a lot and very grateful. I've heard from a friend that the 10:10 is now just full of algos and spoofing?




Correct, it is 3-4 times thicker on the bids and offers and a lot harder to trade.


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## Gautam (26 October 2017)

Hey guys. Great trade chat ! I have also done some research work in money management using ASX stocks. Hope you will read it and comment it. My key finding is even 36% W/L ratio can beat the Index during uptrend. Here is my work: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/syst...gain-dfp/?trackingId=l4dGA9qt9UYod0+KZLrXvA==


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## tech/a (26 October 2017)

I agree.

I notice you take your trades out before the 1R loss.
There is only 1 1.07 R loss. How do you ratchet your stops
I also note some very wide stops how do you determine you stop level.
It varies on each


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## peter2 (26 October 2017)

I have some concerns about that performance and how you express the results. Your opening capital was 100K, yet the CBA trade (#25) has a value over 220K. How much leverage did you actually use? Your benchmark index didn't use any leverage so a direct comparison is misleading. 

Not withstanding my concerns with the use of leverage, wide iSL and many small R losses, I agree that keeping any losses small is the absolute key to profitable trading.


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## peter2 (26 October 2017)

Sorry, I've made a mistake. the CBA position size is only 22K not 220K. No leverage is used.


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## Gautam (26 October 2017)

peter2 said:


> I have some concerns about that performance and how you express the results. Your opening capital was 100K, yet the CBA trade (#25) has a value over 220K. How much leverage did you actually use? Your benchmark index didn't use any leverage so a direct comparison is misleading.
> 
> Not withstanding my concerns with the use of leverage, wide iSL and many small R losses, I agree that keeping any losses small is the absolute key to profitable trading.




I am not using any leverage. How did you recon that? Please do look at the results again and feel free to make objective comment. I would to find someone taking about weakness of trading results. Thnx


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## Gautam (26 October 2017)

tech/a said:


> I agree.
> 
> I notice you take your trades out before the 1R loss.
> There is only 1 1.07 R loss. How do you ratchet your stops
> ...




I used chart SL. But those are secondary. My primary SL is 1R loss.


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## tech/a (27 October 2017)

Gautam said:


> I am not using any leverage. How did you recon that? Please do look at the results again and feel free to make objective comment. I would to find someone taking about weakness of trading results. Thnx




4 hrs before you posted this Pete corrected his mistake no need for you to come back with a baseball bat 

Good job on your trading


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