# Trading with full time job - possible?



## Twiddle (11 April 2010)

Hi all,

I am wondering if it is possible to do any type of successful trading after a normal work day. For example, 2 - 3 hours a night of dedicated trading after coming home from work.

Basically, is it possible to have a full time job and still make money trading, or is it only really possible to get involved in long term investing?

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## tech/a (11 April 2010)

Unless your the boss you wont be able to day or very short term trade.
But you can end of day trade and or trade Eminis Forex or futures After hrs.


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## Twiddle (11 April 2010)

tech/a said:


> Unless your the boss you wont be able to day or very short term trade.
> But you can end of day trade and or trade Eminis Forex or futures After hrs.




So it is a viable strategy to spend hours at night trading these things?

I am thinking about it from the perspective of; 

      -Is 2 - 3 hours every night enough time to trade effectively
      -Do many people do this?

What I am getting at is, given proper hard work and dedication can it be worthwhile being a trader and having a full time job, or does it really need to be one or the other?

I am deciding whether to embark on some serious learning and hard work to try and make money from trading, but I need to know if it is even feasible before I do.


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## cutz (11 April 2010)

Various european markets start trading in the early evening, 

The DAX for instance fires up at around 5pm.


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## Client (11 April 2010)

Most people trade this way: full-times job first, then you come home and make a trade. Actually, you will have to do a previous middle-term analysis before making a trade, I mean you should prepare for several days and then, when its the best time, open a position. Forget about day trading.


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## vincent191 (11 April 2010)

It is possible to do trading during the day and drive a taxi at night. Otherwise just do research at night and do limited trading during the day when the boss is not watching. The wonders of modern technology.


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## kazzumX10 (15 April 2010)

No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough. Dont believe any marketing fluff from CFD brokers telling you can.


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## tech/a (15 April 2010)

kazzumX10 said:


> No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough. Dont believe any marketing fluff from CFD brokers telling you can.




Once you know how to trade profitably this statement becomes laughable.
Except for the last sentence.


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## nomore4s (15 April 2010)

kazzumX10 said:


> No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough. Dont believe any marketing fluff from CFD brokers telling you can.




Wow, that would have to be the biggest load of cr@p I've ever read.

After the initial learning phase, you can make good coin trading "part-time". Hell a few of us on here learnt how to trade & continue to trade while running businesses during normal working hours.


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## Julia (15 April 2010)

kazzumX10 said:


> No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough.



Utter and complete nonsense!


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## noirua (15 April 2010)

kazzumX10 said:


> No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough. Dont believe any marketing fluff from CFD brokers telling you can.




I have to agree with what you say. If a person works full-time then the only way to trade properly is to use your bosses computers and time - that's theft in my book.


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## nomore4s (15 April 2010)

noirua said:


> I have to agree with what you say. If a person works full-time then the only way to trade properly is to use your bosses computers and time - that's theft in my book.




That's not true noirua, trading EOD charts you don't need to have access to the market at all during business hours.


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## georgey (16 April 2010)

tech/a said:


> Once you know how to trade profitably this statement becomes laughable.
> Except for the last sentence.




I agree with Tech, but don't underestimate the time it may take
to learn, and keep that day job as it really takes the pressure 
off as far as money is concerned. Paper trade for a while, then
very small size for an extended period, there's so much to learn.
Perhaps have a holding time of at least a few days rather than day
trade. Actually, forget about making money for months, years if necessary.
I also think one could forget about placing stops and use their size
(small) as a way of managing risk. Possibly split size in two and
scale in if position goes against you. All this should be decided
in the learning phase as to what works best for you.


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## SmellyTerror (16 April 2010)

I have a full time job.

I trade.

I do pretty well. 
_(Despite being one of the newbiest newbies on these boards: please do not take "I do pretty well" as a declaration of competance)._

*Non-day trading:* I trade two-weekers - break-outs and half-arsed fundamentals. Triggers set each evening - takes half an hour if I'm just tinkering stops, a couple of hours if I'm hunting for new targets. Trades manage themselves during the day. Returns a lot better than having the same money on my home loan.

Some of the most relaxing and educational trading I do is Nick Radge's power setups. Have a look at The Chartist website if you're interested in that sort of thing. If you like, you can just sign up for the systematic setups or growth portfolio, and trade along with his trades while you try to learn what the hell he's talking about. Easy. Perfectly suited to evening trading.

*Day trading:* Evenings are not too bad for Forex trading. Even if you miss the opens there's decent activity at that time. And getting to know the pair(s) you trade at the time you trade it (them) is an important skill to learn.

I don't have real money in this yet (not been doing it long) but I'm getting  from treading water to making consistent (if minute) amounts of fake money. It's fun, it's good evening entertainment for people who don't like TV (_passive_ entertainment - eeyeew) and the data is free.

For an entry level education in Forex, look at http://www.babypips.com/school/ .


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## CanOz (16 April 2010)

Not only do i have a full time job, but a job that I'm at for 12 hours per day in including travel.

I still manage to trade very successfully EOD. My big advantage is out sourcing the analysis, so i only have to enter the trades and manage them. It works great for me.

CanOz


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## Pager (16 April 2010)

Yes its very possible, i earn more from trading than i earn at my day job, tried trading full time but for me i found the isolation and boredom too much, so i took a job i had always fancied doing, took a big pay cut but i earn enough to just cover the bills and the trading income is all extra, so my lifestyle hasn't changed at all thanks to the income i gain from it.

Trade off daily bars, some very simple strategy's work, enter everything into an online platform like IB,s TWS and your up and going.

Check out the Chartist, Nick runs several strategy's that you can enter all your orders in a trading platform the night before if you wish, his stuff works but like everything in trading you need to give it time and be disciplined to build your equity.


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## baby_swallow (16 April 2010)

kazzumX10 said:


> No its not possible despite what else you read. Its all or nothing you have to dedicate all your time and resource to it and even thats not enough. Dont believe any marketing fluff from CFD brokers telling you can.




In the old days is almost impossible. But now, with all this modern communications many markets can now be traded round the clock. At night you can trade the European and  US based markets. That's what I do.


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## cutz (16 April 2010)

noirua said:


> I have to agree with what you say. If a person works full-time then the only way to trade properly is to use your bosses computers and time - that's theft in my book.




Incorrect,

Three time zones, pick the one that suits you needs.


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## Twiddle (17 April 2010)

Thanks very much for all your input. 

It seems like most people think it is possible and many people do it, so I have decided to give it a go.

I have spent the last 3 nights paper trading indicies, DAX, FTSE, NASDAQ, gold, oil, EUD/USD, GBP/USD using a demo account with GFC. (I have no idea if they are any good or not compared to others, they certainly have an ironic name)

I am learning a great deal and so far I can see why people stress money management. I have had a few trades get away from me that I should have cut early. Although, most of them ended up coming back and making me a profit, which they would not have done had i put strict stop losses in place. (This is definitely a point of confusion for me currently) 

So far I have made around 40 trades, with about 35 being positive, and I am up $2,280. I have been spending 2 - 3 hours a night, for three nights. I am managing each trade manually, which I realise is a mistake, and I tend to be cutting my profits far to early from fear they will drop back into the red, hence why out of 35 positive and 5 negative I have only made 2k. (Although truth be told I am happy with that as a beginner and it only being 3 nights work)

Going forward I think i really need to learn how to get the information I need as indicators, which news sites to read, how to get it etc. As currently I am just trading from pattern observation.

And then most importantly i need to implement a system so my trades execute mechanically without my involvement, so I take emotion and fear out of the equation. Trailing stop loss seems to be a great idea, that is the next thing I will explore.

Any pointers anyone could give which be much appreciated.


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## craigj (3 May 2010)

there are plenty of stocks on the asx that you can trade that are range bound buy them at the bottom of the range sell them at the top of the range and set a stop loss if they fall thru their support

i work f/t and earn more on the asx than my day job, morning tea and lunch give u a chance to assess how the portfolio is going and close any trades


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## Nero64 (3 May 2010)

> If a person works full-time then the only way to trade properly is to use your bosses computers and time - that's theft in my book.




That's an interesting comment. I never thought of it like that. I suppose taking advantage of employees time, abusing them and making them feel inferior is a reason to say hey I want to trade because I am bored of my job and you're not going to stop me. 

However my job is to answer the phone and I have missed out on some good trades and lost money due to performing my daily job tasks. I remember Karoon gas opening up at $4.50 2-3 months ago. Straight away I thought to myself I will place an order above at $4.70 to catch it moving forward. Just then the phone rang and I got distracted. Idiotically I place the a limit at $3.70. That day Karoon passed $6 and it then went past $8.50 in the coming weeks. 

I used to trade 3-4 hours during working hours using IG Markets in 2008. I used to use live candlestick charts as well. What is odd is I work in a call centre where people could see my screen. I used to get away with it. 

Then in 2009 they began monitoring staff internet connections. 

I used commsec for the live data feed, but the yellow and black screen stands out too much (certain managers complained) and with all the watchlists and updating I got busted big time - Officially warned. Continued use will lead to dismissal. 

Now I resort to quick checks and 20mins delayed quotes. I still use IB but only briefly to do a quick order. I know they are watching me but I can outsmart them to an extent or get fired and get a better job


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## weird (3 May 2010)

Pager said:


> Yes its very possible, i earn more from trading than i earn at my day job, tried trading full time but for me i found the isolation and boredom too much, so i took a job i had always fancied doing, took a big pay cut but i earn enough to just cover the bills and the trading income is all extra, so my lifestyle hasn't changed at all thanks to the income i gain from it.
> 
> Trade off daily bars, some very simple strategy's work, enter everything into an online platform like IB,s TWS and your up and going.
> 
> Check out the Chartist, Nick runs several strategy's that you can enter all your orders in a trading platform the night before if you wish, his stuff works but like everything in trading you need to give it time and be disciplined to build your equity.




Agree


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## nunthewiser (4 May 2010)

Nero64 said:


> Then in 2009 they began monitoring staff internet connections.
> 
> - Officially warned. Continued use will lead to dismissal.
> 
> Now I resort to quick checks and 20mins delayed quotes. I still use IB but only briefly to do a quick order. *I know they are watching me but I can outsmart them to an extent *or get fired and get a better job





Dear nero.

Please empty your desk and leave the building immediately.

we have been watching you.


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## tech/a (4 May 2010)

Nero64 said:


> That's an interesting comment. I never thought of it like that. I suppose taking advantage of employees time, abusing them and making them feel inferior is a reason to say hey I want to trade because I am bored of my job and you're not going to stop me.
> 
> However my job is to answer the phone and I have missed out on some good trades and lost money due to performing my daily job tasks. I remember Karoon gas opening up at $4.50 2-3 months ago. Straight away I thought to myself I will place an order above at $4.70 to catch it moving forward. Just then the phone rang and I got distracted. Idiotically I place the a limit at $3.70. That day Karoon passed $6 and it then went past $8.50 in the coming weeks.
> 
> ...




Whats making you more?
Trading or your job?
If you dont like your job or management change it.

As much as management controls your wage so to do *you control the profit of a company.*Great staff even in menial tasks bring tremendous improvement to bottomline profitability.
I wont have anyone work in my company who isnt thoroughly enjoying what they do and have pride in their performance.

You can trade in longer timeframes without interfering with your day job.
Just as you dont wish your employer to take advantage of you dont take advantage of your employer---references are worth a lot when climbing the ladder.
*There will be plenty of time to trade.*


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## weird (4 May 2010)

Twiddle said:


> So it is a viable strategy to spend hours at night trading these things?
> 
> I am thinking about it from the perspective of;
> 
> ...




I trade index futures, US market, and ASX ... only dedicating 1 1/2 hours a day, most of time downloading End of Day data takes up the majority of my time, as compared to each system.

Different markets, different systems , different time frames ... so many different ways to make a buck (not an income with this style of trading)  in the markets trading only part-time.

3 educators in the market which I think are worth further investigating are Nick Radge, Gary Stone and Brent Penfold.  All offering end of day systems.


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## CanOz (4 May 2010)

Great points made by T/A and Weird.

First of all, personal integrity. Are you willing to lose your personal integrity over day trading? There are lots of other ways to trade. Sure, i did this too once, when my job wasn't busy and i had absolutely nothing better to do. I soon realized though that my strategy was flawed, and i was riding on the tails of a bull market. In hindsight i could have made more money safely by swing trading, and leaving day trading to the scalpers.

Weird's point is valid too, you don't need much time to trade. I think the key is that once you realize you 'don't need to be right' you can trade systems you buy, services you subscribe to, or you can develop and trade systems on your own.

EOD is the most lifestyle accommodating time frame for me. Perhaps when i retire i can watch the market closer and then, maybe I'll feel like taking a more active role in my trading. For now, 1-2 hrs per day is ample.

Good Luck!



CanOz


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## Twiddle (5 May 2010)

Thanks for replies all.

When you say "End of day trading", what kind of hours are you talking?

6pm to 9pm for example? 

Or are you talking about trading the ASX before the close, like 3:30pm, or something along those lines?


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## baby_swallow (5 May 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Thanks for replies all.
> 
> When you say "End of day trading", what kind of hours are you talking?
> 
> ...




My understanding of EOD trading is you base your trading decisions - entry/exit on the daily closing price. You usually hold positions overnight and sometimes for several days, (as opposed to  daytrading where you make several buy&sell throughout the trading hours).

EOD trading or sometimes called 'position trading' has some advantage over daytrading. It is less stressful when you only do your entry/exit at Open or near Close of the trading day. 

Although most of my trades are daytrades, I also look to ride the long term trend in other markets.


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## nulla nulla (6 May 2010)

Nero64 said:


> That's an interesting comment. I never thought of it like that. I suppose taking advantage of employees time, abusing them and making them feel inferior is a reason to say hey I want to trade because I am bored of my job and you're not going to stop me.
> 
> However my job is to answer the phone and I have missed out on some good trades and lost money due to performing my daily job tasks. I remember Karoon gas opening up at $4.50 2-3 months ago. Straight away I thought to myself I will place an order above at $4.70 to catch it moving forward. Just then the phone rang and I got distracted. Idiotically I place the a limit at $3.70. That day Karoon passed $6 and it then went past $8.50 in the coming weeks.
> 
> ...




I am amazed at the audacity you display. You are an employee receiving a weekly wage to commit 38 hours a week in fullfilment of performance of duties on behalf of your employer. Yet you consider it your right to spend your working hours in pursuit of your own interests and show no guilt or remorse even after being warned to discontinue this practise "....but I can outsmart them..." .


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## Twiddle (6 May 2010)

baby_swallow said:


> My understanding of EOD trading is you base your trading decisions - entry/exit on the daily closing price. You usually hold positions overnight and sometimes for several days, (as opposed to  daytrading where you make several buy&sell throughout the trading hours).
> 
> EOD trading or sometimes called 'position trading' has some advantage over daytrading. It is less stressful when you only do your entry/exit at Open or near Close of the trading day.
> 
> Although most of my trades are daytrades, I also look to ride the long term trend in other markets.




Ok, cheers for that. I suppose there would be room for both EOD type style, and a more active involvement. Currently I am quite attracted to a more active approach and catching short term trends as they happen. I am still trying to figure out whether this a viable strategy or not however.


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## baby_swallow (6 May 2010)

Twiddle said:


> Ok, cheers for that. I suppose there would be room for both EOD type style, and a more active involvement. Currently I am quite attracted to a more active approach and catching short term trends as they happen. I am still trying to figure out whether this a viable strategy or not however.




Yes, you can trade several timeframes concurrently, don't just limit yourself in just one. You are only limited to the size of your account.
Eg. I'm, short FESX (DJStoxx50) on hourly, counter trading ES at 5mins and I also have overnight short positions with CL (Oil).


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## justwondering (25 May 2010)

get a laptop and mobile internet , take it to work and trade? 
depending on job obviously.


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