# I'm a (wannabe) Prop Trader



## kid hustlr (7 February 2014)

Following on from post 179 in this thread I thought I'd start a thread about me being a 'prop trader'

Firstly it still doesn't feel right typing that because as far as I'm concerned I'm still a novice and I could be out the door in 3 months time.

THAT BEING SAID:

*History:*
I put myself through Uni playing online poker and had some pretty good success over a 5 year period from when I was about 19-24. Without going into detail, there was plenty of opportunity to make money for a about a 6-7 year period and I probably caught the last 3-4 years and did pretty well from it. From about 2011 onwards though the games started getting a lot harder and whilst I was still making money from the game my capacity to earn $$ was actually decreasing each year. This combined with the face that I started really finding an interest in financial markets led me to move on. I worked at a Superannuation firm for a year or so and then got taken on by a prop firm in March last year. 

One of the biggest regrets in my life I think will be not locking myself in a room playing poker 100 hours a week from the ages of 19 to 22. I reckon I could have put myself in a really healthy spot financially if I hadn't taken it for granted. That being said I was young and naive and as Phil Collins says 'you don't know what you've lost til you lose it'. Instead I've just got a very healthy 'kick start' in life when compared to the average guy financially.

The reason I harp on about my history is that I think it gave me a huge edge in landing a job trading prop. Trader's eyes light up when the see that I've had success managing my own money and there's a lot of similarities between poker and trading. I was effectively the perfect fit for what my 'mentor' was looking for in that I had no preconceived ideas about trading so he could teach me his way from scratch, yet I naturally had a number of skills that prop traders need.

*Trading:*
I'm hesitant to go into great detail about what I do but in the main I traded the Australian futures interest rate market, specifically the 3 and 10 year bonds however i do venture into the shorter end of the yield curve at times and also keep a pretty close eye on the US treasuries. There's a number of ways to trade these markets by most of the time I'm looking to scalp the market (either through the outright market or spreads) to $$ out of the market.

I initially started on a Sim account and went to my own account in June. My trading size/limits started small and has steadily increased over the past 8 months since being on my own account.

It has been a long road and I am no where near the pot of gold. In fact I have never been paid. I don't have my charts with me on this computer but this MS paint picture gives a pretty good idea of my P+L.





I can go into more detail about my P+L and the breakdown if required although I feel the picture paints itself pretty well. The one thing I will say is don;t under estimate desk fees + brokerage cost as a drag (especially initially). If I had to guess I'd hazard to say I've paid 35-40k in brokerage in the last 8 months.

What gets me up in the morning is the upside potential. I'm happy to work for free for as long as it takes so long as the upside is there. In all honesty if you are trading any kind of size in this market and can average like 1 tick a day then you are living a good life.

A usual day for me is wake up at 6am, watch/trade the last 1.5 hours of the night session and attempt to frame the day/build a bias/build a plan and then head into work for the 830 open of the cash session. Trade til 4.30pm, come home and do exercise/errands and then trade the FTSE from 7pm for a couple of hours. Occasionally if there is data out in the state's ill set my alarm and get up or stay up for that. The hours can vary a little bit and truth be told as I type this now I wonder if 9.5-10 hours of bond trading a day is enough. It's probably not. That being said we go pretty quiet until the states wake up so there is a lull period from 5.10pm til say 10pm so it's hard to do any more hours, I just try to follow the volatility in the main.

Not sure what else there is to cover. If you have any q's fire away and I'll do my best to answer them or kindly ignore them!


----------



## barney (7 February 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> Following on from post 179 in this thread I thought I'd start a thread about me being a 'prop trader'
> 
> Firstly it still doesn't feel right typing that because as far as I'm concerned I'm still a novice and I could be out the door in 3 months time.
> 
> ...




From a wannabe trader I am most appreciative of your input Kid ......... TH inspired and helped me a few years back but I have been unable to replicate his "abilities" even on a small scale ....... Anyone who has gotten as far as you have is a major achievement, so well done!   Any input/information is appreciated


----------



## darkhorse70 (7 February 2014)

Awesome.  Hopefully one day I can get my foot in the door. Being at uni for the past 2 yrs and failing miserably I ordered a trading book 8 months ago and now im hooked. Just got kicked out of uni but honestly its probably the best thing that ever happened. Obviously your situation was much different to mine but do you have any advice to increase the chances of getting into a prop firm apart from the obvious stuff like track record etc.Any words of wisdom would be appreciated haha.


----------



## peter2 (7 February 2014)

Well Kid, you earned some respect for your opening post. Good work getting the job and good work getting back to BE. (btw, great looking 123L buy setup in your pic.)



> Its a little easier waiting for a setup when you actually have one to go by rather than just winging it tick by tick.




Another gem from TH. If you don't have a plan at the start of the session "you're dreaming".

Even though your long bias was wrong if you had waited for a buy setup you wouldn't have been caught out. Of course you also need to know when your bias is wrong and go with what you see. I notice that TH's initial plan was wrong but he wasn't burned by it and ended the period with a small profit. That's good trading. 

I think you need to understand the daily bars, daily highs/lows are really important for an intraday trader. The hourly chart shows an impulsive move down after the RBA news, an attempt to rally back up ending in a range, then an excellent example of a bullish trap (upthrust at 96.06). It's all down after that. 

Set up a plan for the start of your day, but know when you're wrong and be ready to reverse. Make certain that you have a good win when you're right and avoid losing when your wrong. You will do very well being right only 50% of the time.


----------



## Valued (7 February 2014)

Trading is like poker. You must always have a plan for your hand so you must always have a plan for your traders. Instead of your opponent's range of hands you have the market's range of possibilities. 

Here:

*Poker	    * *   Stockmarket*

Bankroll	                                        Capital
Bet Sizing	                                        Position Sizing
Pot Odds	                                        Risk
Hand Reading	                                Volume Spread Analysis
Starting hands	                                Market timing 
Table dynamics                             	Crowd psychology
Cash game                                   	Underlying Asset
Tournament	                                        Derivatives
Rake	                                                Brokerage
Negative variance/downswing	                Drawdown
Doyle Brunson/tight aggressive	        Warren Buffet/Value Investor
Tom Dwan/loose aggressive	                Jesse Livermore/Technical Analyst
Jamie Gold	                                        Market Gurus
Game Theory Optimal	                        Holy Grail
Sklansky dollars	                    No direct equivalent but is referred to indirectly in options financial  models.
G-Bucks	                            No direct equivalent - could be modeled into an advanced form of risk analysis.
Bots/super users	                               Smart Money
Fold	                                              Stop loss
Dead money                                      Averaging down
Raise                                               Pyramiding
Tilt	                                              Gambling/speculating
Range	                                      Similarities in Modern Portfolio Theory and also for market possibilities
+EV	                                               No equivalent used by retail traders.


----------



## Valued (8 February 2014)

One more and actually this one really helped me in drawing a link between poker and trading. Think of trading in harmony with the market as being on the button. If you go long when the indices are rising you are in position. If you go short when the indices are rising you are in position. In these cases you're on the BTN and get to see how the futures act first! if you go long in a bear market or short in a bull market you are out of position. You are blind. it is possible to make money out of position but as you must know as a profitable poker player, you make your money in position.

Btw trading is much better than poker. The edges are huger, the +EV is better, people have no clue so it's like it's 2002 and better yet, this game can't be solved. While poker has become math and science, trading can still be an art. You still have your pot odds (risk), of course. Interestingly, trading risk analysis is no where near poker risk analysis. No one is comparing EV against a market's range like you would with G-bucks in poker. I doubt big hedge funds even know about it unless they have hired poker players. Even Sklansky dollars , which have been in poker for decades, is cutting edge in today's markets in 2014. No one knows what it is and no software has been built to apply it or track it. The reason traders are so behind is that they arn't working with 2% edges. They don't have to use that level of risk analysis to profit. It's insane no one has even figured out Sklansky dollars yet though. I wonder if the prop firms use a similar concept and if they take it as far as g-bucks.


----------



## kid hustlr (8 February 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Awesome.  Hopefully one day I can get my foot in the door. Being at uni for the past 2 yrs and failing miserably I ordered a trading book 8 months ago and now im hooked. Just got kicked out of uni but honestly its probably the best thing that ever happened. Obviously your situation was much different to mine but do you have any advice to increase the chances of getting into a prop firm apart from the obvious stuff like track record etc.Any words of wisdom would be appreciated haha.




Dont worry about Uni in my opinion, just be able to show you are a smart guy/switched on. I walked in on my first interview and asked if I needed to have any knowledge about cost of carry and the basis and I got almost got laughed out of the place.

As far as 'getting in' I think the best think you can do is spend as much time as you can sim trading in front of some big markets. Watch some of the major equity indices and forex markets. Sim trade them, be aware of what their drivers are. I think prop firms are either looking for:

1. junior trainees who they think have some potential
2. seasoned guys with a proven track record.

It sounds like you fit into the first category which is fine but just recognise that the competition is HUGE for something like this, especially in Austrlia where there just aren't that many firms trading prop.

To be honest there is nothing wrong with working a 9-5 and then learning to become a successful a 'retail trader' at night. I've got a lot of respect for someone like Pav who's clearly spent a considerable amount of time learning, but he's now at the point where he's having consistent success and he's done it off of his own back.

FWIW I'm sure skc or TH could chime in with more thoughts here.



peter2 said:


> Well Kid, you earned some respect for your opening post. Good work getting the job and good work getting back to BE. (*btw, great looking 123L buy setup in your pic.*)
> 
> Ha, as I drew it in paint I thought the same thing, buy the swing high!!
> 
> ...




Once again something I'm working on, apart from LETTING MY WINNERS RUN most of my trades are make half/lose half which is tough enough to be profitable as it is, add to the fact that you get swept or cleaned up every now and then (ala this morning and y/d morning) and it's hard to be profitable. I'm right way more than 50% of the time but perhaps just not managing the trades as well I should be.



Valued said:


> One more and actually this one really helped me in drawing a link between poker and trading. Think of trading in harmony with the market as being on the button. If you go long when the indices are rising you are in position. If you go short when the indices are rising you are in position. In these cases you're on the BTN and get to see how the futures act first! if you go long in a bear market or short in a bull market you are out of position. You are blind. it is possible to make money out of position but as you must know as a profitable poker player, you make your money in position.
> 
> Btw trading is much better than poker. The edges are huger, the +EV is better, people have no clue so it's like it's 2002 and better yet, this game can't be solved. While poker has become math and science, trading can still be an art. You still have your pot odds (risk), of course. Interestingly, trading risk analysis is no where near poker risk analysis. No one is comparing EV against a market's range like you would with G-bucks in poker. I doubt big hedge funds even know about it unless they have hired poker players. Even Sklansky dollars , which have been in poker for decades, is cutting edge in today's markets in 2014. No one knows what it is and no software has been built to apply it or track it. The reason traders are so behind is that they arn't working with 2% edges. They don't have to use that level of risk analysis to profit. It's insane no one has even figured out Sklansky dollars yet though. I wonder if the prop firms use a similar concept and if they take it as far as g-bucks.




Not sure about trading being easier, I think there are much smarter minds in the financial markets than the poker tables and always will be. It's far more sophisticated. The potential gains are just so much bigger. I think the 'poker mindset' helps with things like the fact that you can be right and lose money or be wrong and make money. I still think some of my best trades are the ones where I've lost money.


----------



## pavilion103 (8 February 2014)

The similarities between poker and trading is what got me interested too. I knew that if I could be successful in poker I could be successful in trading.

One big advantage that drew me to trading is that unlike poker you don't have to sit at a table all day as the only way to make money. You can have growth portfolios, end of day trading, hold position trades in futures. Plenty of accommodating options.

Poker was fun. Loved reading the books and then playing in the tournaments. My friends were wondering why a few casual games turned into an obsession. But then again I want to win anything I do. Just ask the multiple friends who have "retired" against me in FIFA haha. There is great satisfaction in knowing nothing about soccer and after a year of playing FIFA beating guys who know everything and have owned the game for years haha!


----------



## skyQuake (8 February 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> Not sure about trading being easier, I think there are much smarter minds in the financial markets than the poker tables and always will be. It's far more sophisticated. The potential gains are just so much bigger. I think the 'poker mindset' helps with things like the fact that you can be right and lose money or be wrong and make money. I still think some of my best trades are the ones where I've lost money.




As someone who was a trader before a poker player, I think the only thing 'smarter' about the ones in the financial markets is that they are playing in an expanding ocean rather than a drying up pond. 

Sure the poker boom a few years back were great, but now all the fish are gone. Only the strong players are left!


----------



## Valued (8 February 2014)

For me I had trouble separating profitable poker from gambling. I would go to casinos and play live tables and yet still go play blackjack. Online I ended up playing drunk a lot too. I was profitable when sober and playing my regular games. I lost it all gambling and drinking. I didn't have the discipline to sit there and play for hours upon hours at a time. EOD trading is much better suited to my personality. What I took from poker were the concepts of EV, pot odds, bankroll management/risk and a general mindset of understanding variance in results even where you have a positive edge. I try to draw analogies to poker though in all aspects of trading.

Skyquake yea, in poker the games are tougher as the player pool learns more and more. New players quickly lose their money. In the markets more and more people are piling in so there is always new people to give their cash away.


----------



## darkhorse70 (8 February 2014)

Thanks for the feedback kidhustler. Yeah im just playing sim's at the moment. Just going to try to use that as evidence of improvement. Even though real trading cant compare I treat sim trading dead serious. Anyhow thanks again and GL with your trading.


----------



## skc (10 February 2014)

Kid, I don't have anything too specific to add to your thread, but I thought I'd come in here and give you some love. It's always great to read the story/struggles/success of fellow traders. 



kid hustlr said:


> Firstly it still doesn't feel right typing that because as far as I'm concerned I'm still a novice and I could be out the door in 3 months time.
> 
> It has been a long road and I am no where near the pot of gold. In fact I have never been paid. I don't have my charts with me on this computer but this MS paint picture gives a pretty good idea of my P+L.
> 
> View attachment 56726




I think you should be quite pround of yourself. Your equity curve shows clearly that you are getting it. And considering you only started trading 12 months ago, it is very encouraging. If a prop shop was to cut you lose after you showing that kind of potential they'd be making a mistake.

Keep at it. One of these days that curve would be your P&L for half a morning and you wouldn't even bat an eyelid. 



kid hustlr said:


> A usual day for me is wake up at 6am, watch/trade the last 1.5 hours of the night session and attempt to frame the day/build a bias/build a plan and then head into work for the 830 open of the cash session. Trade til 4.30pm, come home and do exercise/errands and then trade the FTSE from 7pm for a couple of hours. Occasionally if there is data out in the state's ill set my alarm and get up or stay up for that. The hours can vary a little bit and truth be told as I type this now I wonder if 9.5-10 hours of bond trading a day is enough. It's probably not. That being said we go pretty quiet until the states wake up so there is a lull period from 5.10pm til say 10pm so it's hard to do any more hours, I just try to follow the volatility in the main.




I think it always good to show wannabe traders the effort involved. I trade equities - and while the market is only open for 6 hours a day, I easily spend double that amount at my desk doing research or spreadsheets or refining models or reading analysts reports on most days. Trading is simple, but never easy. 



kid hustlr said:


> Dont worry about Uni in my opinion, just be able to show you are a smart guy/switched on. I walked in on my first interview and asked if I needed to have any knowledge about cost of carry and the basis and I got almost got laughed out of the place.




IMHO, for a young person looking at various career choices, my strongest advice is "Keep your options open" and don't go all-in on trading (or becoming a prop trader). Sure, once you get in by all means work your butt off. But skipping Uni to play online poker so you can land an interview is NOT good risk management for the rest of your life career-wise. 

If you are a smart/switched on guy, you will be able to make it in a variety of fields and make just as good/better money as trading and have a rewarding career etc. 



kid hustlr said:


> To be honest there is nothing wrong with working a 9-5 and then learning to become a successful a 'retail trader' at night. I've got a lot of respect for someone like Pav who's clearly spent a considerable amount of time learning, but he's now at the point where he's having consistent success and he's done it off of his own back.




+100. The consistent income + compounding your savings through trading/investment is the most assured way to achieving financial independence. 

I hope I don't come across as trying to talk anyone out of pursuing a trading career. I just think that for most people, other paths would most likely lead to better reward/risk.



kid hustlr said:


> I think the 'poker mindset' helps with things like the fact that you can be right and lose money or be wrong and make money. I still think some of my best trades are the ones where I've lost money.




+1.


----------



## kid hustlr (10 February 2014)

I always like your posts skc.

Agree about the prop trader career view as well. I would never tell someone not to pursue their dream, in fact Im off the opposite view that you should always do something you like over that extra pay check. But there are many ways to skin a cat and trading full time is ridiculously difficult


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 February 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> Firstly it still doesn't feel right typing that because as far as I'm concerned I'm still a novice and I could be out the door in 3 months time.




I would say you are one step away from 'making it'. There is now doubt looking at that equity curve that you have the skills to read and trade the market. Just no two ways around it. The draw down at the start is very common from what I hear. It's not always just the lacking of skill that causes it (though for people just randomly doing stuff that clearly is the cause). You have a whole world of new pressure that is working against you. Desk fees, expensive data, a boss looking over your shoulder, bigger size, not wanting to be the only schmuck in the room not making $$$$s and of cause the internal pressure knowing this is _your _BIG chance so ya don't want to F it up. That makes the difficult days that much harder to trade through. And from that a downward spiral is normally the start.

BUT the fact you traded out of it so rapidly back to BE shows you settled down and traded profitably. You only do that if you *can *trade. That is the hardest of all about becoming profitable. Knowing that you can trade and having the data to show it. You now have. You know what to do. You don't have to read any more stupid books or go in search of 'The Secret Gann' method etc.

There is only one more step I reckon. And its always the last thing AFTER you find the skill. See pic,







skc said:


> I hope I don't come across as trying to talk anyone out of pursuing a trading career. I just think that for most people, other paths would most likely lead to better reward/risk.




Yes its sh!te way to make a living......... but it can be a great way to make a life....


----------



## CanOz (10 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> I would say you are one step away from 'making it'. There is now doubt looking at that equity curve that you have the skills to read and trade the market. Just no two ways around it. The draw down at the start is very common from what I hear. It's not always just the lacking of skill that causes it (though for people just randomly doing stuff that clearly is the cause). You have a whole world of new pressure that is working against you. Desk fees, expensive data, a boss looking over your shoulder, bigger size, not wanting to be the only schmuck in the room not making $$$$s and of cause the internal pressure knowing this is _your _BIG chance so ya don't want to F it up. That makes the difficult days that much harder to trade through. And from that a downward spiral is normally the start.
> 
> BUT the fact you traded out of it so rapidly back to BE shows you settled down and traded profitably. You only do that if you *can *trade. That is the hardest of all about becoming profitable. Knowing that you can trade and having the data to show it. You now have. You know what to do. You don't have to read any more stupid books or go in search of 'The Secret Gann' method etc.
> 
> ...




Great posts SKC and TH, I'm really enjoying this thread Kid... thanks for starting it. 

This one is one of the best all time quotes that likely will sum up why everyone thinks they should become a trader 







> Yes its sh!te way to make a living......... but it can be a great way to make a life....




I really hope you succeed Kid, you're young and hopefully you've got some good mentors / trainers there to give you the proper encouragement. I hope you end up consistently making money do this and you end up having a great life because of it.


----------



## kid hustlr (10 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> I would say you are one step away from 'making it'. There is now doubt looking at that equity curve that you have the skills to read and trade the market. Just no two ways around it. The draw down at the start is very common from what I hear. It's not always just the lacking of skill that causes it (though for people just randomly doing stuff that clearly is the cause). You have a whole world of new pressure that is working against you. Desk fees, expensive data, a boss looking over your shoulder, bigger size, *not wanting to be the only schmuck in the room not making $$$$s** and of cause the internal pressure knowing this is your BIG chance so ya don't want to F it up.* That makes the difficult days that much harder to trade through. And from that a downward spiral is normally the start.
> 
> A couple of things here. The bolded sums up the mentality very well. Nothing worse than hearing everyone's machines light up and knowing they all just made money whilst you were sitting there either doing nothing or going the other way. Everyone is different but the internal pressure one builds on themselves can be a lot to overcome.
> 
> ...






CanOz said:


> Great posts SKC and TH, I'm really enjoying this thread Kid... thanks for starting it.
> 
> This one is one of the best all time quotes that likely will sum up why everyone thinks they should become a trader
> 
> I really hope you succeed Kid, you're young and hopefully you've got some good mentors / trainers there to give you the proper encouragement. I hope you end up consistently making money do this and you end up having a great life because of it.




I appreciate the the kind words and thoughts guys. I've actually taken a little bit out of this thread myself to be honest and I might keep it as a 'quasi blog' type thing where I update it every now and then with how I'm going or any random thoughts I have about my trading.

The major issue for me now is how to move forward. I feel like I have some 'bread and butter' type trades but they only work in certain markets and at certain times, my goal is to keep looking at some other options, building more spread structures and longer term time plays rather than just thinking scalp the whole time.


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> There is now doubt looking at that equity curve that you have the skills to read and trade the market. Just no two ways around it.




Just to clear up my mid trade mistakes...... that was meant to be " There is *no *doubt". Not now....


----------



## skc (11 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> The draw down at the start is very common from what I hear. It's not always just the lacking of skill that causes it (though for people just randomly doing stuff that clearly is the cause). You have a whole world of new pressure that is working against you. Desk fees, expensive data, a boss looking over your shoulder, bigger size, not wanting to be the only schmuck in the room not making $$$$s and of cause the internal pressure knowing this is _your _BIG chance so ya don't want to F it up. That makes the difficult days that much harder to trade through. And from that a downward spiral is normally the start.




Very true. Funnily it's not something I experienced when I first joined. However I did join after trading full time for a number of years. They started me on a small size that was less than what I was doing for myself, so that made the transition quite easy. I also was really casual about it all. I didn't consider it to be a big break (I had little concept about future growth prospects) and I always thought if it didn't work out I'd go back to trading on my own.

But that's all changed now and I definitely want to stay and build up size for as long as they allow me.



Trembling Hand said:


> Yes its sh!te way to make a living......... but it can be a great way to make a life....




Actually I think it's a really good way to make a living. It's just that everyone thinks they qualify (because you only need a drivers licence to open a broker account) when in reality it only works for very few.


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 February 2014)

skc said:


> Actually I think it's a really good way to make a living.




:nono: Don't tell everyone that.


----------



## kid hustlr (11 February 2014)

Blog post #1

Warning - this will be long

So this month hasn't started great for me. These day's a full size 'tick' is worth about 1k and I think after brokerage I'll be circa -2k on the month at this stage. So it's by no means a disaster but at the same time throw the software + desk fees on top of that and it can start to build pretty quickly, especially when I had my eyes set on getting paid this month. Practically, its a tough month for me because February is short + the fact I was away for the first week. All things working against me.

I was so keen to get back into it and truth be told I think this is a bad thing. I feel I've 'pushed it' a little too much and as such I haven't really been trading how I should have been trading. 

Most of my 'bread and butter' type trades are scalp trades. It's how I've been taught and they do work. The problem is they are 'relatively' easy to teach and every local is trying to do the same thing. It makes life difficult and truth be told a lot of the time the R:R isnt there. At times scalping is really effective and as I said it's definitely my bread and butter (although I still need a lot of work) yet lately it has been difficult in this market. I know for a fact a lot of the scalpers in my office have struggled which gives me some solace. When the big boys are in and there is plenty of size floating around, scalping can be tough as you get run over easily.

So in recognition of the fact that I've had a tough start to the month and that most of my 'plays' aren't as effective as I'd like them to be, I'm going to make a few adjustments to how I go about things.

1. *Adjust my hours slightly:* Rather than get up early, work the back end of the night session then trade the day session, I'm going to sleep in an extra hour, come in fresh for the day session (though still prep before hand) and then look to do a second smaller session later on at night when the states open. The states are at their busiest from about 12:30 to 3:30 Sydney time so the later nights will be difficult but it's something I need to get used to. Even if I just keep an eye on it until 11:30 or so then head to bed that's fine.

2. *Adjust how I'm trading the current market:* As above scalping is difficult at the moment. Add to the fact I've been trying to 'push it' and it has gone great for me the last week or so. There's also nothing more frustrating that being correct but just having your timing slightly off and losing money on a trade which turns out to be the right one 20 minutes later. I'm going to have more longer term spread trades on and play my view/bias with a more emphasis. One thing I think I have definitely picked up thanks to tech/a, pav and TH is my context + chart reading ability in recent months. Add to this the fact I feel I've built some experience in the bond market to know how and when to play certain spreads and I think I will have a strong edge here. The major issue will be learning to sleep with a position on (will take some getting used to).

3.* Forget about the FTSE:* It's too hard trying to focus on multiple markets. If in 3 months time I still don't feel I've turned a corner with the prop trading and I walk away, then I can take on the FTSE and become a 'retail trader' until then I need to give this all I've got.

4. *Execution:* I'm still not executing a lot of my trades as well as I would like, I can still be too jumpy at times.

So that sums up my thoughts/plans for the next several months. I plan to re-assess how I am going at the end of March.

*Example trades:*

Below are several trades I took today. There were many others but I want to concentrate on these 2.

The first trade is a trade I MISSED this morning. The second trade was a loser in the early afternoon. Notes on the chart. Opinions are welcome if you feel like providing them.


----------



## skc (11 February 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> So this month hasn't started great for me. These day's a full size 'tick' is worth about 1k and I think after brokerage I'll be circa -2k on the month at this stage. So it's by no means a disaster but at the same time throw the software + desk fees on top of that and it can start to build pretty quickly, especially when I had my eyes set on getting paid this month.




Really stupid question. What's 1 full size tick? From 95 to 96? Or 95.000 to 95.025? Or something else?


----------



## db94 (11 February 2014)

mate loving this thread. As a uni student looking to get into prop trading, this will really help  keep up the good work!


----------



## kid hustlr (12 February 2014)

skc said:


> Really stupid question. What's 1 full size tick? From 95 to 96? Or 95.000 to 95.025? Or something else?




91 to 92.

in the ten years it's '2 half ticks' so say 95.835 to 95.845


----------



## kid hustlr (17 February 2014)

I was going to post another 'update' so to speak but there hasn't been much to report in recent days. 

There's been a little bit of life in the market lately but I just haven't been able to capture any of it and truth be told I feel I'm really struggling lately. Confidence is quite low and at the moment everything I seem to do is wrong.

I know this thread started off on a really good tone about how I felt like I was 'turning a corner' but truth be told I'm just not sure. If I sit down and analyse my results and my trades, like I mean really analyse, I wonder how much of the last few months is luck? how much is just positive variance? 

A lot of things going through my head recently - its part and parcel of not doing well and I could really go into a heap of detail if I wanted to but there's not much point.

End of the day I'm just going to stick with my plan and trade ideas for the next few weeks, give it my all and try to get our of this rut.


----------



## pavilion103 (17 February 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> I was going to post another 'update' so to speak but there hasn't been much to report in recent days.  There's been a little bit of life in the market lately but I just haven't been able to capture any of it and truth be told I feel I'm really struggling lately. Confidence is quite low and at the moment everything I seem to do is wrong.  I know this thread started off on a really good tone about how I felt like I was 'turning a corner' but truth be told I'm just not sure. If I sit down and analyse my results and my trades, like I mean really analyse, I wonder how much of the last few months is luck? how much is just positive variance?  A lot of things going through my head recently - its part and parcel of not doing well and I could really go into a heap of detail if I wanted to but there's not much point.  End of the day I'm just going to stick with my plan and trade ideas for the next few weeks, give it my all and try to get our of this rut.




Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?

For example the following areas:
- psychology - anything?
- clarity with your setups
- clarity with your trade management
- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
- ability to limit risk in trades
- letting trades run 
- etc...

I think it's very important to be clear on the specifics. Rather than just being in a general slump, what is working well? What isn't ? What repeated mistakes are you making? Work on eliminating them.


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 February 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?
> 
> For example the following areas:
> - psychology - anything?
> ...




Good post Pav. You are right. You cannot work on "being a better trader" or "trading well" just as you cannot say "I'm going to be a better person". It means nothing. You have to really drill down and actually work on something to improve it, something specific, while still staying on point with stuff you have previously nailed down.


----------



## kid hustlr (17 February 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?
> 
> For example the following areas:
> - psychology - anything?
> ...




In some parts I'll go into detail, in other parts I won't. Partly because I doubt anyone who doesn't trade the curve day in and day out would understand, and partly because its not my place to reveal 'secrets' - however good or bad they may be - from others who have taught me.

Psychology is definitely something I need to work on. As I've said before my standard style of trading has been scalping. It's a fast style of trading and one where if it goes against me I'm out. I'm now trying to transition into a more medium/longer term type trader because:
a. scalping is very difficult at the moment and
b. they give you more 'room' to let you play an idea or a concept and if trades initially go against you than that's ok (although not ideal). 

Making a change is always going to take time, so the execution and psychology side of things is something I need to work on.

'Clarity with my set ups' 'Clarity with trade management' are similar to above. It's a little slow at the moment as Im adjusting my craft. these are not my major areas of concern right now though.

- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
I'm comfortable with this.

- ability to limit risk in trades
As above, my INABILITY to limit risk is why I'm making the adjustments I am.

- letting trades run 
Definitely something I need to work on. In all aspects.

Truth be told a lot of my trading is/was my ability to read the depth and identify little ways of taking out consistent small profits. Lately this technique has just been blown out of the water and right now I feel like I'd be having more success trading my ideas/views/concepts rather than trading on what I see on a minute to minute basis in the ladder.


----------



## kid hustlr (17 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> Good post Pav. You are right. You cannot work on "being a better trader" or "trading well" just as you cannot say "I'm going to be a better person". It means nothing. You have to really drill down and actually work on something to improve it, something specific, *while still staying on point with stuff you have previously nailed down*.




I should clarify. As above there are some specific areas of my trading I won't go into. Partly because I don't want to and partly because its not my place.

I'm sure you understand, you aren't going to go around telling everyone on a forum how or why you made a certain trade.

---

With respect to the bolded - that's how I'm viewing it. Every now and then I'll get a day where I wouldn't want to be doing anything else other than scalping. I'll trade that accordingly. It's just at the moment these days aren't occurring as often as they have been in the last 8 months.


----------



## pavilion103 (20 February 2014)

Interested to get some regular updates if you're keen to share. Interested to see how you progress in the coming weeks.


----------



## havaiana (20 February 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> Interested to get some regular updates if you're keen to share. Interested to see how you progress in the coming weeks.




Yeah same. If you get a chance it would be good to hear what happens after you get through the traineeship stage and initially start in the office. Is there any more training, or just sim with some advice from a mentor or something?

It's hard when you get to a certain level to take the next step and go on with things. You think that when you find that edge it will be all smooth sailing, but it is just the beginning. I posted a thread a while ago trying to find a mentor to pay to help me out a bit with some more advanced stuff but got no response. I decided to put myself out there a bit and started a blog this week to detail a bit what I do in the hope I will get some feedback and/or an exchange of ideas from people who may be at a similar or higher level than me.

http://theasiansession.blogspot.com.au/

Would be good to get any feedback/advice from any of you guys if you ever have the time to read a post or two.


----------



## kid hustlr (28 February 2014)

havaiana said:


> Yeah same. If you get a chance it would be good to hear what happens
> 
> after you get through the traineeship stage and initially start in the office. Is there any more training,
> 
> ...




Sorry mate I only just saw this.

I can't really comment on the first part of the question because I didn't really have a sim phase 

online. I was lucky enough to have a friend who traded with this company, It just so happened they 

were looking and it just so happened I fit the mould. I was on the sim for 2-3 months whilst he 

decided if he thought I had 'the stuff'. he decided I did so he put me on my account and upped my 

size over time.

its not training per say, if I want to know something or talk about something ill go talk to him. im in 

a room full of traders, we share ideas (sometimes). I remember the first few months I used to print 

stuff out and bug him all the time, lately not so much as I feel like I know the game a bit better. Point 

im trying to make is I didn really go through any set regime, I am in a lucky enough position that I do 

sit next to profitable traders every day.

I’ll have a look at your blog when I get a chance.

You’re right about constantly fighting. That’s what it is, just as you think its starting to turn 

something happens and you’re back to square one. I maintain the fact that there is nothing wrong 

with working a 9-5 and trading at night. Truth be told its probly the smart thing to do.

February disapoointing to me. Graph below. I made a couple of small errors and it cost me, it wasn’t 

a disaster of a month but very disappointing. At the end of the day I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little 

disolusioned and questioning my future. That being said I have this weird optimism and a ‘well you 

may as well have a crack’ attitutude which I think is a really good thing. I’ll have a good go in March 

and see what happens.

Graph itself doesn’t include desk fees so need to add that as well, its not a disaster as I said but I 

wouldn’t want too many like this.





I could go into a lot of detail about a lot of things but at the end of the day I just want to execute my plans and trade well.

Next update the end of march.


----------



## kid hustlr (28 February 2014)

Wow Hav looks like a serious blog. ill start from the beginning some stage over the weekend and try to catch up to speed.


----------



## havaiana (3 March 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> Wow Hav looks like a serious blog. ill start from the beginning some stage over the weekend and try to catch up to speed.




Thanks for the the info

Don't bother with the blog, posts are super long and boring and mainly bitching about how crap I'm trading and how unlucky I am. It will make you dumber. I can sum it up pretty quickly:

Start blog, trade like crap for one and a half weeks, pull my head in last 2 or 3 days and run hot to come out barely in the green. That's about it.


----------



## DJG (12 March 2014)

As I posted in the other Prop Trading thread, I'll also include in this one to ensure no body misses out.

Just got this email for you Sydney & Gold Coast people:


----------



## kid hustlr (31 March 2014)

Another month down. I'm tired so I won't go into a fully in depth post.

Quick Summary:

Trading:

- Traded much better, especially the last week or so and although I need to check I believe this is my best month ever. That's nothing to right home about but its nice to put February behind me with a nice finish in March.
- Adjusting my R:R has helped immensely. Not being so desperate to take profits when I'm in the money has led to a much better R:R overall. It also gives me the confidence to take more marginal trades because I think about the upside possibilities.
- Still need to work on how I manage longer term positions.
- I was so much more patient when in a trade and it helped immensely. Instead of being like 'OMG IM LONG THE BID HOW CAN I MAKE MONEY!' I'm finding myself being calmer and more in control. When I'm trading well my position is irrelevant, I find that I'm just monitoring the market and then thinking about how I can manage my position best rather just praying it goes my way. I'm letting things unfold much better rather than trading panicky.
- Still have a lot of work to do on the FTSE.

Personally:

- Still need to leave trading at work. Finding myself losing too much sleep not being able to turn off.
- I still let my trading mood influence my life mood too much.
- Taking the odd walk and getting out of the office has been very beneficial. If I'm not sitting at my desk desperate to trade I'm probably best off not being there at all.

Other:
- I watched this today. It's very good. I've seen the NO BS beginner course and it was very good. Just hearing about how clearly successful traders trade and think really helps me get 'in the mood'. One thing I should note though is that I need to be careful how much I take in. Sometimes If I'm listening to too many peoples views (be it reading it on this forum or in the office) it influences how I see the market. At the end of the day I have to trade my style and my way and back my bias.

http://www.pricesquawk.com/john-grady/

Summary:
- I can do this. I've come back from a hole twice now. The first time was the learning process and then having a few things 'click'. It took me 7 months and I Had a beginner rebate scheme on my side. The second time my hole lasted 1 month and I had no rebates coming my way. I took it all out of the market myself. Imagine if I keep building my size, imagine if I pick up a few ticks each week on the FTSE, imagine if I'm moving enough volume to also get SFE rebates. It's not that far off.
- Always be active. The best traders are active. This doesnt mean trading every price. This means constantly thinking about what I can be doing to make money.


----------



## CanOz (31 March 2014)

I've got that Pricesquawk installed, its like music to my ears. 

I always used PaceofTape so familiar with the concept but the PriceSquawk has better tones...


----------



## grahamg (2 April 2014)

Keep up the good work Kid Hustlr - Its a process with ups and downs - persistence and gently correcting path is most of whats needed.  It can take a year to get on top of the desk fees from talking to other guys with that challenge, but then it is only relative to the size you are playing with. ie will soon become peanuts.  If you're on one of two possible tradedesk's I'm thinking of - with a guy with a big beard and probably the captain hindsight hat, go unplug his mouse before NFP  

Trembling Hand - Would you be interested in doing a podcast interview down the track? Your wise words in this thread made me recall I used to read your blog years ago, or some forum discussion on how you went from a tent to trader. Correct me if I'm wrong.

CanOz - Glad you're liking the PS trial (and figured out how good it is for Pace) - let me know if can help with anything.


----------



## kid hustlr (2 April 2014)

tx graham.

not with the firm you are thinking about I don't think but there's a few harry hindsights in this office also


----------



## CanOz (2 April 2014)

grahamg said:


> CanOz - Glad you're liking the PS trial (and figured out how good it is for Pace) - let me know if can help with anything.




Thanks Graham....

Like i said i always used PaceofTape (free indicator) just to alert me when the tape was speeding up. Your indicator is interesting and kinda fun to play with but i could see it as a good learning tool.


----------



## kid hustlr (3 May 2014)

This will most likely be my last post in this thread.

Although absolutely tiny I cut my first pay check at the end of April, some 13 months after I started. Whilst this by no means suggests that the only was is up, I feel this thread has run its course in that I don't personally feel I can get anything more out of posting updates.

For me personally now I feel as though I'm at that point where I have learned enough skills in this game to realise that there are ways to be profitable long term. Apart from really going into in depth styles of trading in the markets I trade and discussing possible ideas with guys watching these markets each day, theres not much for me to learn from a 'basics' point of view.

At the end of the day I think the factors which will ultimately decide whether i trundle along and eventually 'bleed out' or truly become successful at this to the point where I do it very lucratively for the rest of my life are as follows:

1. Having the drive to constantly bust my ass each month. Trading is like anything else, you get out what you put in. Put in good quality hours - always be thinking, always be trying something new, always look for the holy grail.
2. Having confidence in myself. It's funny how after a couple of good trades you're on top of the world and vica versa. For me, I keep a level head almost 99% of the time which is a good trait, but I need to keep up the aggresion @ all times. sometimes I can go into my shell when at the end of the day for me personally, I'm best to shake things off - be it good or bad - and then start firing again.


----------



## CanOz (29 September 2018)

SMB Capital Killing it...

https://www.smbtraining.com/blog/weekend-learning-lessons-for-traders-from-smb-4


----------



## Triple B (30 September 2018)

YES SMB has a large amount of videos and webinars. A real prop trading firm with 85% Trading and 15% education. 
Watch and learn. KEEP A TRADING JOURNAL.STATS
you wont regret the time spent watching these


----------



## minwa (1 October 2018)

Triple B said:


> YES SMB has a large amount of videos and webinars. A real prop trading firm with 85% Trading and 15% education.
> Watch and learn. KEEP A TRADING JOURNAL.STATS
> you wont regret the time spent watching these




Don't really know much about SMB but I think I have their videos on some ext HD, will dig it out and have a skip through.


----------



## Triple B (1 October 2018)

minwa said:


> Don't really know much about SMB but I think I have their videos on some ext HD, will dig it out and have a skip through.




Hundreds of vids on you tube .


----------

