# The world punishes the honest and hard working



## Tyler Durden (22 May 2011)

I was talking to my friend earlier, who is in marketing in a large corporation. We were talking about budgets in the context of saving money. He said being under the budget was actually not a good thing. I was like "what? Isn't it good to show your company that you were able to save x amount?" He said if you were under budget, then the next year your budget would be reduced, because it was deemed that you didn't need that much money. He said what they did if they were under budget was to spend the rest of the money on something (_anything_) to reach/exceed the budget. 

So in essence, there really is no incentive to help the company save money. I'm sure that's basic ABC for the corporate go-ers around here.

I also remember talking to other friends about taxation in this country. Someone who devotes their life to work hard as an employee, will inevitably get taxed more than someone who spends their time creating tax-avoidance devices/structures/schemes.

Then there is my experience with Cityrail. I was so used to purchasing a weekly ticket from point A to point B, that one day when my boss asked me to go beyond point B for work, that I forgot to buy a separate ticket. As my luck would have it, a ticket inspector got on that day, and when approached, I just admitted that I had forgotten to buy the right ticket. I copped a fine (although he seemed pretty reluctant to write it up).

Then a few days later, I read in the paper about how Cityrail officers actually have no right to demand that you provide your name and address, so you could just not answer then or give them incorrect details, and thereby avoiding a fine. Additionally, I remember once putting my ticket through the barriers, only to watch a teenager jump the gates and walk out the station, all the while the other Cityrail employees just pretended they didn't see it. Yet when I try to walk through the wheelchair access for my luggage, some refuse to open the gates until they've scrutinised my ticket. So IT'S BETTER OFF TO JUMP THE GATES!!!

So, what's your take on how the world treats the honest and hard working?


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## Glen48 (22 May 2011)

I have heard of people driving around all day in a company car just to get the K's up, most of this gets back to the Law and commonsense. Maybe a better system would to have a few house wives on a panel looking at each case and using  commonsense decide on a resolution and save tying up the courts.
 Also with taxation the more money you have the more you can get away with tax avoidance.
But the good thing is the big leveling stick comes along and the $5M house they purchased at Bondi is suddenly worth $2,5M


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## medicowallet (22 May 2011)

I use legal methods to reduce my tax, and I am not reluctant to do so.

I pay much more tax than the average worker, so I am quite disheartened when people expect me to pay more.


I do so within the law, that should be good enough (especially for the people without motivation to better their own situation). Most successful/wealthy people get there by sacrifice and as soon as the average person realises this the better.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2011)

medicowallet said:


> I use legal methods to reduce my tax, and I am not reluctant to do so.
> 
> I pay much more tax than the average worker, so I am quite disheartened when people expect me to pay more.
> 
> ...




Sorry doc,

I would have replied sooner but I had a coughing fit on a good Flor De Cano Coronas, I was having after a good breakfast, when I read your post.

Name me one person, bar your good self, who has attained riches in Australia, honestly.

On another theme, why should not the world punish the honest and hardworking, what benefit do they bring to the world?

Sir Walter Raleigh, who brought the first tobacco to the Old World, was a scoundrel and blackguard, but without him I would not have been able to enjoy my cigar this morning, that is until you posted.

The world does punish the honest and hardworking, and so it should.

gg


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## Calliope (22 May 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Name me one person, bar your good self, who has attained riches in Australia, honestly.




As I remarked on another thread, no organisation nor individual can become rich except through the gullibility of others, who may or may not be be honest and hard-working.  

The gullible will be punished and rightly so. They are easily sucked into schemes which offer to make the rich.


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## medicowallet (22 May 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Sorry doc,
> 
> I would have replied sooner but I had a coughing fit on a good Flor De Cano Coronas, I was having after a good breakfast, when I read your post.
> 
> ...




Oh I agree, it is difficult to become rich without scamming the system.  It is possible, just much harder.  I think the only good thing about being ethical is bringing others up with you and getting a good reputation, apart from that the corrupt way is much better.

As for one person, I am yet to meet them. 

As an honest, and law abiding citizen, I can offer you the service of helping keep you alive so that you can enjoy that cigar.

MW


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## medicowallet (22 May 2011)

Calliope said:


> As I remarked on another thread, no organisation nor individual can become rich except through the gullibility of others, who may or may not be be honest and hard-working.




I disagree.

I would say it would be difficult to become super rich in a single generation without preying on the gullible. 

eg look at all the property developers who are on the rich list now. All because stupid people are prepared to pay obscene margins for land and property.


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## Logique (22 May 2011)

A bunch of self-funded retirees out there who'll agree with you Tyler. All the same, it's hard to get ahead without some measure of honest graft.


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## nioka (22 May 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Name me one person, bar your good self, who has attained riches in Australia, honestly.



 Lang Hancock for one. There are plenty more. Think "Victa", "Hills hoist", "Triton", J.H.Williams, etc.


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## nunthewiser (22 May 2011)

nioka said:


> Lang Hancock for one.  .




you might want to scrub that one m8 

he got more skeletons than karrakata.

all comes out in the  wash given time and money tho.

blessim and his shadows


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## tothemax6 (22 May 2011)

Its even worse than that, Tyler. That teenager who jumped the gates will probably be in centerlink in a few years - which you will be paying for.

The reality is there is a massive amount of injustice in the world. There are no morals, no legal consistency, no healthy views of what is right or wrong. What people think, do, say, or believe is entirely random - there is no standard of 'good' or 'bad'.

Just focus on the good parts of the world, the parts of your life that you are comfortable with and the things you enjoy. Hating the world for the way it is yields nothing but pain because no individual has the power to correct it.

And sure, some people will say 'but if you don't get angry, if you don't protest, things will never get better'. To them I say: 'people have been getting angry and protesting for hundreds of years, none of it changed anything, indeed often it made things much worse'.


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## Macquack (22 May 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> And sure, some people will say 'but if you don't get angry, if you don't protest, things will never get better'. To them I say: 'people have been getting angry and protesting for hundreds of years, *none of it changed anything*, indeed often it made things much worse'.




Bollocks.

Take Egypt for a recent example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Egyptian_revolution

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)


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## bbker (22 May 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Sorry doc,
> 
> I would have replied sooner but I had a coughing fit on a good Flor De Cano Coronas, I was having after a good breakfast, when I read your post.
> 
> ...




Fair enough, let's encourage the further demise and corruption of Australia to keep the cigars rolling and hope for an African or middle eastern style sh*thole state. I'm sure many here are looking forward to this wondrous vision! 

In the meantime keep the little bleeders honest by feeding them McDonalds and arming them with centrelink to quell possbile uprisings and put off the inevitable. At present only law enforcement supposedly has the right to bear arms and control of the wacky tobacky trade so you've got a head start to pass on the legacy before you go.


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## prawn_86 (22 May 2011)

It does punish the honest. Recently i was pulled over by the traffic police, asked why i had an SA drivers license, told them i had moved from there, they asked when, answered honestly (12 months ago) so they wrote me up a $400 fine because you are supposed to change it within 3 months, which i honestly did not know.

I have now instructed all the guys at work who have interstate licenses to say they are travelling whenever they get pulled over.


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## Glen48 (22 May 2011)

Same as if you get pulled over after a few drinks always say about 10 minutes since your last drink the cops have to let you sit on the side for awhile to make sure they can get a good reading, you hope thewy are in a hurry and will let you go, most are tempted to say 30. mins - 1 hr which means the reading the cops get is correct and you have had time to digest any remaining grog in your mouth.
 I think if you did every thing honestly you would go under as the money you need to make would not go far.

 Black money is all that drives an economy.


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## Gringotts Bank (22 May 2011)

Of the extremely wealthy people I've met, (about 5), most of them had very unusual personalities.  Control is a huge factor - they feel a compulsion to control and manipulate everything and everyone so as to help them turn the greatest profit possible.

Here's what's wrong with that approach - they make other people suffer in the process.  You might say "well so what?".  ok that's fine, until everyone develops that same attitude, wherein all hell breaks loose.  Not everyone can win at the same time.  Watch the football - every week there's 9 winning teams and 9 losing teams.  You could become clever and cheat the salary cap, bribe the AFL or whatever.  Soon enough people will investigate your success because they want what you have.  Once again, problems ensue.

In China for example, corruption and exploitation is so rife that the only way they can maintain an upper class is to maintain a huge underclass to feed off.  They work the underclass to the bone because the rich have seen that they can't safely compete against each other - it would be too uncomfortable.  But there's a day of reckoning coming in china when the underclass get sufficiently informed about how they are being worked by the rich.  At the moment the underclass are kept away from any international websites where they might learn how exploited they are.  The mother of all civil wars is waiting to happen.  Meanwhile the "authorities" crack down harder and harder (read: control and manipulate) the lower classes.  Part of this manipulation is about promising them a car and a house and a flushing toilet..._.if only they work hard enough! _  See?

Getting back to this notion of control.  What is control?  What is manipulation?  It's fear in disguise.  I won't go through the mechanics, but anyone who indulges such behaviours has a lot of fear in them.  Normally it's a fear of exclusion, judgement or poverty that is at extreme levels in the very rich (or anyone who cheats for that matter).  

So, each time someone indulges in dishonesty, manipulation, control tactics or  coercion, they are doing themselves a massive disservice.  They just don't understand that it creates even more and more fear in them.  Fear of loss, fear of exclusion or death or whatever it is.  It's absolutely not worth it.  You get the money, then you struggle to sleep!  For a religious person, it's even worse - you know, karma and all that nonsense?  

I believe it's absolutely possible to be rich and a honest, fair and reasonable man.  I haven't yet proven it to my own satisfaction, thats' why I trade.


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## bandicoot76 (22 May 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Its even worse than that, Tyler. That teenager who jumped the gates will probably be in centerlink in a few years - which you will be paying for.
> 
> The reality is there is a massive amount of injustice in the world. There are no morals, no legal consistency, no healthy views of what is right or wrong. What people think, do, say, or believe is entirely random - there is no standard of 'good' or 'bad'.
> 
> ...




agreed to a point... though getting passionate and angry is ok so long as that passion and anger is informed and thus focussed on the forces most responsible for the corruption that causes the world to be so unfair... yes i'll answer again with another TJ quote (gotta love em!)

 "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and opressions of the body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." 
— Thomas Jefferson


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## Smurf1976 (22 May 2011)

Tyler Durden said:


> So in essence, there really is no incentive to help the company save money. I'm sure that's basic ABC for the corporate go-ers around here.
> 
> ...
> 
> Then there is my experience with Cityrail...



Rule number 1 - don't save the company money unless you are gaining something out of it (recognition, status, promotion, pay etc). Sad but true at least in many (most?) large companies (same in the public service too).

As for Cityrail in Sydney, let's just say I've only ever used their services as a visitor (since I've never lived in Sydney) but they need a very firm kick you know where. If someone has purchased what was sold as the correct ticket and still can't get out of the station, and there is literally nobody around to ask for help, then that's just not good enough. I and several others ended up climbing over the gates just to get out of the train station late at night after a return trip we thought we had correctly paid for earlier in the day. It's not as though we didn't clearly state that we weren't from NSW, didn't know what ticket we needed, and just wanted to go from A to B and back to A at the end of the day. It ain't rocket science to sell someone the correct train ticket...


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## Gringotts Bank (22 May 2011)

One other thing, and hopefully this is of interest:

Control freaks can't trade!  Why?  Because they try to impose the same tactics on the market that they use in life, relationships and business.  What happens when you try to impose control on the uncontrollable beast that is the ASX?  Problems, that's what!  You lose.

And in that sense, trading can be a great teacher.  I'd go so far as to say that if you're losing money trading, then you're full of tension and fear.  Not a nice state.


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## IFocus (22 May 2011)

nunthewiser said:


> you might want to scrub that one m8
> 
> he got more skeletons than karrakata.
> 
> ...




Wittenoom........................


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## Julia (22 May 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Just focus on the good parts of the world, the parts of your life that you are comfortable with and the things you enjoy. Hating the world for the way it is yields nothing but pain because no individual has the power to correct it.



 I've sadly come to believe this.  We all like to think our righteous indignation and genuine protests will yield a result, but it rarely happens, so best we can do is try to preserve our own sanity by understanding the limits of our influence.



Gringotts Bank said:


> So, each time someone indulges in dishonesty, manipulation, control tactics or  coercion, they are doing themselves a massive disservice.  They just don't understand that it creates even more and more fear in them.  Fear of loss, fear of exclusion or death or whatever it is.  It's absolutely not worth it.  You get the money, then you struggle to sleep!  For a religious person, it's even worse - you know, karma and all that nonsense?
> 
> I believe it's absolutely possible to be rich and a honest, fair and reasonable man.  I haven't yet proven it to my own satisfaction, thats' why I trade.



I've only quoted a small amount of a good post.  It's what we would all like to believe is true.
However, there are plenty of people who can indulge in the worst behaviours, careless of the effect on their fellow citizens, and absolutely not give a damn.


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## Tyler Durden (22 May 2011)

Thanks to all those who have responded thus far - many many insightful views.

I'd also like to quote another friend of mine, who once said "if you are willing to put away your morals, you can make lots of money". It almost seems like our morals are limits on our financial ability.


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## Gringotts Bank (22 May 2011)

I used to believe that Durden.  

What helped was seeing just one really good example of effortless ease in making money ethically in business.  Then you know it's possible, but without all the harmful scheming and cheating that 99% of rich people indulge in.

edit:  I'm not down on the rich really, though it might sound like it.  They see the world a certain way, and they act accordingly.  What stops most other people doing the same is fear of karma or hell or whatever your particular religion calls "divine punishment".  They actually believe there's a God who will punish them if they step out of line.  It's such a deeply buried, widely held and sensitive belief that most people have strong gut reactions when it's brought to the surface as I'm doing now!  LOL!  And don't assume that people who have no religion aren't scared of God!  They absolutely are!


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## Glen48 (22 May 2011)

Mr. G Banks you are correct the  few rich people I know/knew all like to talk about how much money they made and how hard they worked, getting up at going to bed at 1 am getting up at 4 am first to work last to leave .

 I also notice they like to control but if you stand up to them they turn to water, drink with the women because they don't like or afraid of male company  chasing some thing that does not exist.


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## tothemax6 (23 May 2011)

Macquack said:


> Bollocks.
> Take Egypt for a recent example.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Egyptian_revolution
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)



We will see in 5 years what replaces the old egyptian regime. Regime changes have so far yielded nothing in Africa or the Middle East in the long run. Take southern africa for instance. When Mugabe conquered Rhodesia, it was hailed as a step in the direction of democracy and racial equality. Today you can go on youtube and type in 'Salisbury Rhodesia'. Compare that with 'Harare Zimbabwe'. No democracy, no racial equality, and mostly starvation in the former 'bread basket of Africa'. 
In the short run people get high on the notion of 'all change is for the best', when in reality most of the time the 'change' they refer to was simply a load of noise and commotion.


bandicoot76 said:


> agreed to a point... though getting passionate and angry is ok so long as that passion and anger is informed and thus focussed on the forces most responsible for the corruption that causes the world to be so unfair... yes i'll answer again with another TJ quote (gotta love em!)
> "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and opressions of the body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."
> ”” Thomas Jefferson



Unfortunately the ideas of Jefferson cannot be broadcast into the heads of the populace. There are competing ideas, and most people either do not put in the investment required to deduce the correct ideas, or are intellectually and moral incapable of deducing the correct ideas, or just don't care.
The theory of memetics better models the minds of mankind than the theory of reason.


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## cynic (23 May 2011)

Fascinating thread.

Whilst I can appreciate that there are those in the world that like to believe that wealth is synonymous with dishonesty and/or unscrupulous business ethics, this need not necessarily be the case. I know of a number of people whom (whilst not quite millionaires) have managed to accumulate sufficient wealth to be totally debt free with their house/s owned outright and 5 or 6 figures in the bank. So it can be achieved by some.

One in particular managed to pay off two mortgages during his working years, despite having significant periods out of work, and often being ineligible for welfare support due to the assets test. This individual was able to demonstrate full compliance with taxation and social security rules and regulations throughout various audits that arose. Due to a limited education, health issues, eccentricity and other circumstances, this individual's income rarely exceeded the "poverty level/bread line". (This isn't just an urban legend - I happen to know this individual exceptionally well - and no this person hasn't inherited any wealth and didn't win any major lottery prizes either!).

Often times the aforesaid individual was accused by certain resentful persons of having "cheated" the system, solely on the basis of others incomprehension (and resentment) in having been "outdone".

Many people like to believe that they are superior by merit of intellect, education, health,business acumen, attitude or wisdom. Some unfortunately succumb to the temptation to (without first examining the facts) condemn anything or anyone that happens to achieve results which challenge one's personal illusion/s of superiority. 

Having said all this, it does seem mysterious that we live in a society where it is legally possible for individuals to accumulate material wealth without having made a commensurate contribution (via work/business participation) to said wealth's production/generation.


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## Gringotts Bank (23 May 2011)

cynic said:


> Fascinating thread.
> I know of a number of people whom (whilst not quite millionaires) have managed to accumulate sufficient wealth to be totally debt free with their house/s owned outright and 5 or 6 figures in the bank. So it can be achieved by some.




More than a few would achieve that level of wealth honestly, cynic.  There are hundreds of thousands of Aussies in that basket, living comfortably without cheating anyone.  For starters, most well paid professionals (doctor, lawyer, engineer) will do that.  Plenty of small business owners as well.

The difference is in the high net worth dudes.  Creating $100's of millions is hard to do without some scheming.


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## trainspotter (23 May 2011)

8 minutes of the Lizard of Oz at his finest. He famously told the nation in 1991 during the televised Senate inquiry into the media, only a fool paid more tax than he had to, and he didn't think politicians were spending his money so well that he wanted to contribute more.


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## Wysiwyg (23 May 2011)

Some people master the art of selling ones investments for more than they cost.

-------------------------------



> Due to a limited education, health issues, eccentricity and other circumstances, this individual's income rarely exceeded the "poverty level/bread line". (This isn't just an urban legend - I happen to know this individual exceptionally well - and no this person hasn't inherited any wealth and didn't win any major lottery prizes either!).



One of those Aussie battler types that achieved his goal within his lifetime.


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## ChaoSI (23 May 2011)

wonderful thread.
I would also like to agree to this statement.

"honesty is the best policy" ... if you enjoy being fined... 
got a parking ticket the other day... $86 for not displaying a ticket. now considering tickets are $7... of the over 15 times i've parked there this is the first fine... so i'm still up -.-
and yeah you could argue the monetary cost of the anxiety of knowing i parked in the wrong place but that doesn't really figure in does it.

morality as we know it is nothing more than a construct derived from an absolute sense of right and wrong, whereas in real life right and wrong aren't absolutes.

one motivation is a fear of what somebody else say was "god" or some kinda of divine justice.
but let's put it this way... if we knew for a fact that this was all there is and there was no divine justice, nobody to answer to for our lives, how many people would maintain their morals? if this is indeed all there is wouldn't we be motivated to make it as good for ourselves (and maybe our progeny) as possible?
In this instance we're really only answerable to ourselves, if we can go to sleep at night... if we can then.. why don't we do those things?


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## Knobby22 (23 May 2011)

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term. 

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.


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## cynic (23 May 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Some people master the art of selling ones investments for more than they cost.
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> One of those Aussie battler types that achieved his goal within his lifetime.




Yes - very perceptive. Careful investment in term deposits and real estate accompanied by the recent (first "Vendors" Grant stimulated) property boom were key factors in this Aussie battler's successes.

Although there are always additional goals to pursue once the original goals have been achieved. 

I believe this individual is now trying to prove a point regarding the possibility of ethical wealth accumulation by striving to add a few more zeroes to the end of the portfolio/bank account balance.


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## ChaoSI (23 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
> Generally right and good wins out long term.
> 
> Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.




we like to believe this.
i'm not saying that it's not true but the thing is.. those rich corrupt people are still relatively happy with their lives too in their own way


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## wayneL (23 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
> Generally right and good wins out long term.
> 
> Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.




A nice thing to believe, but IME untrue. Dishonest people will hang **** on honest people and most ordinary folk do not have the wherewithal to discern fact from fiction.

Ref the story of the feather pillow; good people can end up with diabolical reputations.


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## Gringotts Bank (23 May 2011)

ChaoSI said:


> if we knew for a fact that this was all there is and there was no divine justice, nobody to answer to for our lives, how many people would maintain their morals?




There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier.  I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people.  If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind.  You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you?  Well, most people wouldn't.


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## cynic (23 May 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier.  I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people.  If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind.  You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you?  Well, most people wouldn't.




You clearly haven't met my family!


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## Gringotts Bank (23 May 2011)

lol


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## bandicoot76 (23 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
> Generally right and good wins out long term.
> 
> Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.




AGREED 1000%!  nice quote knobby!!


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## Tyler Durden (23 May 2011)

Another example I have thought of is people who take fake sickies. Their work must then be done by those honest enough not to take fake sickies, yet both get paid the same. Well, actually, the dishonest one gets paid more, because they are being paid for doing nothing for that day.

And then it's a double whammy if the work that has to be re-allocated is mistake-prone, because then the person too honest to take fake sickies gets stuck with the errors!!!


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## Julia (23 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
> Generally right and good wins out long term.
> 
> Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.



Agree, Knobby.  And with that trust comes the essential sense of self respect.

Is self respect a characteristic simply unimportant to some people?   I'd have thought most of us need the good opinions of others to reinforce our own feeling of "OK-ness" but perhaps I'm quite out of step on this?





Gringotts Bank said:


> There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier.  I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people.  If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind.  You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you?  Well, most people wouldn't.



Agreed, GB.  But is our sense of community and the common good now so diminished that we simply don't care what others think about us?


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## Aussiejeff (24 May 2011)

...and then this crap comes along just to reinforce how the "World of politicians punishes the honest and hard working citizens of Oz"... again....



> *We work too hard, say federal politicians*
> 
> 
> FEDERAL politicians say they are overworked and want to cut the hours they spend at Parliament.
> ...



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/we...eral-politicians/story-e6frf7jo-1226061454690

Well, according to the small poll near the bottom of that article, 95% of respondents DON'T think our pollies deserve shorter work hours and more pay. Of course, past experience shows that level of vehement rebuttal by the hoi poloi only serves to encourage said pollies to whip fait accompli legislation through lickety-split. :angry:


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## jaystar86 (24 May 2011)

I want to give an example here of a close family friend of mine and also mentor.  

He started work at 16 without a 'good' education behind him and at some stage in his early work days branched out into his own business.  He built that business up over 30 years to sell it for a very substantial figure (multiples of millions).  During running his business he gathered around him a large property portfolio (I'm aware of 10 properties he has held for a long long time and a few developments he did on the side).  

This gentleman gives a lot of his money (and time) to charities.  He also made every effort in his business to branch out and offer jobs to people that were trying to better themselves in our society.  To my knowledge there are three people who thank him for helping them become financially free (my family is just one of the beneficiaries). 

Since selling his business he has branched out and started helping young business people in there own businesses.  I am one of the beneficiaries of this.  He has never asked me for a stake in my business nor a financial payout for his time/service and his advise has always been amazingly profitable to me (I take him out to dinner and help him in anyway I can to compensate). 

This example (plus one other similar not as good story though) has proven to me that the world doesn't punish the hard and smart worker, it punishes the hard and not smart workers.  Most example I've seen of hard workers failing is because they did something stupid or didn't do something to better themselves. 

I'm happy for people to believe whatever they wish to believe, however, this example to me is why I believe this world rewards those that work hard.  As long as they work hard in the right way (which I believe most people don't do).  

I also believe that the perception of 'wrong doing' or 'negative actions' is just that someones perception.  Take the video of packer before.  Most people take that to say he doesn't want to pay tax (which may be true).  I believe he was saying, he is happy to pay tax but definately doesn't want to pay more then he has too (which also may not be true). 

Regards,

Jayvan


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## ChaoSI (24 May 2011)

jaystar86 said:


> This example (plus one other similar not as good story though) has proven to me that the world doesn't punish the hard and smart worker, it punishes the hard and *not smart *workers.  Most example I've seen of hard workers failing is because they did something stupid or didn't do something to better themselves.




i like this... it's always better to work smart than to work hard. Asian countries are pretty good shows of this (not to say the don't work smart but... yeah)

your example is of a truly excellent human being jay, but as with all this psychology, there will always be the 5% who don't follow the general trend so i guess the question here is.... what is the trend?
in a 95% confidence interval who's the 95% ? the scoundrel nerf herders. or the saintly altruists.


as for the thread, incorporating what jay's said, i think it'd be more correct to say that the world happily takes advantage of people who aren't smart about what they do.

the ability for people to take advantage of one another is a conflict of desires.
if your desire to fulfil your own goals above other peoples (if they are mutually exclusive anyway) then we take advantage.

simply put noone is purely altruistic nor should they be, if we put everyone before ourselves we end up last in line, if we jump the queue then everybody hates us..
just finding a balance.

last point, natural selection in a really screwed up way. (just from what i see at work)
mr ceo rises to the top perfectly able to house and care fully for probably 20 kids... but he only has one.. (or his high powered wife is only able to conceive once due to stress from work)
mr and mrs dole bludging baby bonus scabbers are barely able support their drug habit with tax payers money let alone their children... and yet somehow they're the most fertile people on the planet.... men and women of this SES walk past each other in the street and the girl gets pregnant.....

/end random rant...


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## burglar (24 May 2011)

ChaoSI said:


> ... random rant...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_imported_fire_ant

 Red_imported_fire_ant (RIFA)...." were the first clearcut case discovered of a green-beard gene,[7] by which natural selection can favor altruistic behavior."


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## Gringotts Bank (24 May 2011)

Julia said:


> Agreed, GB.  But is our sense of community and the common good now so diminished that we simply don't care what others think about us?




Julia, yes community seems diminished.  But what caused that?  Answer: being too concerned with what others think of us!

I do my best every day to be totally unconcerned with what others think of me.  It's the only way to live.  And if you live that way then you're authentic.  And if you're authentic then you're happy.  If you're happy then community-mindedness comes naturally.


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## ChaoSI (24 May 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Julia, yes community seems diminished.  But what caused that?  Answer: being too concerned with what others think of us!
> 
> I do my best every day to be totally unconcerned with what others think of me.  It's the only way to live.  And if you live that way then you're authentic.  And if you're authentic then you're happy.  If you're happy then community-mindedness comes naturally.




what if you're authentically concerned with what other people think of you and your happiness is derived from the good opinion of others?


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## Gringotts Bank (24 May 2011)

ChaoSI said:


> what if you're authentically concerned with what other people think of you and your happiness is derived from the good opinion of others?




The thing about that type of happiness is that you become a slave to others.  You become a people-pleaser and you are dependent upon being able to constantly perform up to others' expectations. What happens when you stop working at age 70?  Whom will you please then?  The ladies at the bowling club? Everything about your natural self is subjugated this way.

The happiness that is derived from doing that which you do naturally when you have no concern about what others are thinking - that's more dependable and stable.  It also leads somewhere useful.  It's not a meaningless loop.


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## Knobby22 (24 May 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> The thing about that type of happiness is that you become a slave to others.  You become a people-pleaser and you are dependent upon being able to constantly perform up to others' expectations. What happens when you stop working at age 70?  Whom will you please then?  The ladies at the bowling club? Everything about your natural self is subjugated this way.
> 
> The happiness that is derived from doing that which you do naturally when you have no concern about what others are thinking - that's more dependable and stable.  It also leads somewhere useful.  It's not a meaningless loop.




Some truth there, but man is a social animal. You need friends. You need social intercourse. Being loved and feeling belonging is important. Going fishing or to the footy on your own is not satisfying. Going to see a movie on your own and having no one to discuss it with afterwards is pitiful. Man is not an island.


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## Gringotts Bank (24 May 2011)

There's nothing more attractive than an authentic person.  They always have people wanting to be around them.  That's the (apparent) paradox.

I say apparent because there's nothing paradoxical about it, it just looks that way.  The inauthentic man is trying to please everyone, because he is afraid of not being good enough.  But he gets what he fears - others' judgments.  The authentic man makes no effort to please anyone, because he has no fear of his worth.  He gets what he desires.


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## ChaoSI (24 May 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> The thing about that type of happiness is that you become a slave to others.  You become a people-pleaser and you are dependent upon being able to constantly perform up to others' expectations. What happens when you stop working at age 70?  Whom will you please then?  The ladies at the bowling club? Everything about your natural self is subjugated this way.
> 
> The happiness that is derived from doing that which you do naturally when you have no concern about what others are thinking - that's more dependable and stable.  It also leads somewhere useful.  It's not a meaningless loop.




i'm not diasgreeing that it is a more precarious way to live, but your opinion that your way is the ONLY way to live, and it's not.
relying on social validation is a bit hit and miss but there are people who do that and get along through life. Yes we're more tied to people that we already are but that's the price we pay for being social animals.

besides your role on this planet is defined entirely in relation to other people, 
you are you, but you are also somebody's child, parent, friend, coworker etc you get the point....
like knobby said man isn't an island.

also by your definition, people that rely on the good opinion of others are automatically deemed "inauthentic".
which brings me to the question "how are you defining authentic?" is it any person who cares little for the opinions of others? is that the only criteria ?
authenticity would be just being who you are... if you're codepenedent the be so, sure it's not the healthiest way to be but hey you are what you are.....


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## nomore4s (24 May 2011)

The world punishes the honest and hard working...................


Which is probably why there are so many dishonest & lazy people out there.


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## nioka (24 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> . Going fishing or to the footy on your own is not satisfying.



 Going fishing on my own is one of the joys of my life. Going with others usually leads to problems and is nowhere near as relaxing as being on your own with nature. AND, I usually catch more fish that way. Then if there is no fish I dont have someone pestering me to move or go home early.

I don't agree that the world punishes the honest either nor does it punish the hard working.


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## cynic (24 May 2011)

nomore4s said:


> The world punishes the honest and hard working...................
> 
> 
> Which is probably why there are so many dishonest & lazy people out there.




Well , yes , many of us do enjoy sitting on our ASSe(t)s!

Having said that, many of us did partially earn them first.


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## Knobby22 (24 May 2011)

nioka said:


> .
> I don't agree that the world punishes the honest either nor does it punish the hard working.




I agree. Lazy people are the ones whinging.
Dishonest people are filling our jails.


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## bandicoot76 (24 May 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> Dishonest people are filling our jails.




...and also filling our political parties,govt agencies, the justice/legal system, banks, parliament, senate, company boards, media, lobby groups, unions, education system  etc etc


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## nioka (24 May 2011)

bandicoot76 said:


> ...and also filling our political parties,govt agencies, the justice/legal system, banks, parliament, senate, company boards, media, lobby groups, unions, education system  etc etc




To an extent I agree but not to the point where they FILL them all. They have inFILLtrated but hopefully they don't FILL them. I see more good people than bad ones.


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## Julia (24 May 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> The thing about that type of happiness is that you become a slave to others.  You become a people-pleaser and you are dependent upon being able to constantly perform up to others' expectations. What happens when you stop working at age 70?  Whom will you please then?  The ladies at the bowling club? Everything about your natural self is subjugated this way.



This is a valid point and one which has perhaps been a bit misinterpreted by subsequent posters.  People who constantly feel the need to please others can come across as being needy for approval.  Their lack of personal "OK-ness" doesn't allow them to feel whole unless someone else confers approval on them.
Hence we see these people often being anxious to do what they believe will win approval.

It can be difficult, though, to differentiate these folk from those who do feel fully confident in themselves and then from that base are happy to help others.
(This could go to the whole altruism argument.)



> The happiness that is derived from doing that which you do naturally when you have no concern about what others are thinking - that's more dependable and stable.  It also leads somewhere useful.  It's not a meaningless loop.



Yes, I know what you're saying.  
But perhaps it's sometimes a fine line between this level of confidence and independence and the more pathological disregard for what is good for a community and its members?




Knobby22 said:


> Some truth there, but man is a social animal. You need friends. You need social intercourse. Being loved and feeling belonging is important. Going fishing or to the footy on your own is not satisfying. Going to see a movie on your own and having no one to discuss it with afterwards is pitiful. Man is not an island.



Agree about the discussing of a movie type stuff.  But not necessarily about other activities.
We are all different.  (awful cliche.)
So some of us need the company of others to really enjoy most of what we do, whilst others find constant company inhibiting and irritating.



Gringotts Bank said:


> There's nothing more attractive than an authentic person.  They always have people wanting to be around them.  That's the (apparent) paradox.



Yes it is.  And as above, mostly we find needy people unappealing company.
Confident, happy people who have clear ideas about what they like and dislike are attractive and interesting.



> I say apparent because there's nothing paradoxical about it, it just looks that way.  The inauthentic man is trying to please everyone, because he is afraid of not being good enough.  But he gets what he fears - others' judgments.  The authentic man makes no effort to please anyone, because he has no fear of his worth.  He gets what he desires.



Well described.  But again, it can be easy to fall over that line into being cocky, self opinionated and arrogant.




nioka said:


> Going fishing on my own is one of the joys of my life. Going with others usually leads to problems and is nowhere near as relaxing as being on your own with nature. AND, I usually catch more fish that way. Then if there is no fish I dont have someone pestering me to move or go home early.
> 
> I don't agree that the world punishes the honest either nor does it punish the hard working.



Agree on both points.


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## Tyler Durden (2 July 2011)

Another example I saw recently was on my way to work. My bus travels along a main road with three lanes - the left one is a bus lane. At around 8:30am this road can get pretty packed. 

Most people stay out of the bus lane and patiently wait, but I've noticed time and time again pretigious cars like BMWs and Mercedes driving in the bus lane to get ahead of everyone else. 

I guess it's these type of people who get ahead in life - those who are willing to break the rules.


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## Boggo (2 July 2011)

I think they probably play by the rules and work hard to get their status, the problems start when they get too comfortable in that zone, put themselves above everyone else and then become the Conrad Blacks of the world as the natural order re establishes itself.

_"the first generation clears the land. the second generation clears the debt. the third generation clears the assets" _


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## tothemax6 (3 July 2011)

ChaoSI said:


> last point, natural selection in a really screwed up way. (just from what i see at work)
> mr ceo rises to the top perfectly able to house and care fully for probably 20 kids... but he only has one.. (or his high powered wife is only able to conceive once due to stress from work)
> mr and mrs dole bludging baby bonus scabbers are barely able support their drug habit with tax payers money let alone their children... and yet somehow they're the most fertile people on the planet.... men and women of this SES walk past each other in the street and the girl gets pregnant.....



Welcome to the 21st century.


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## Wysiwyg (3 July 2011)

> last point, natural selection in a really screwed up way. (just from what i see at work)
> mr ceo rises to the top perfectly able to house and care fully for probably 20 kids... but he only has one.. (or his high powered wife is only able to conceive once due to stress from work)
> mr and mrs dole bludging baby bonus scabbers are barely able support their drug habit with tax payers money let alone their children... and yet somehow they're the most fertile people on the planet.



So the Australian welfare system makes it possible or would the types that do this expansive breeding do it anyway without community support? Thus leading to a greater poverty cycle as they experience in parts of Africa where people breed a lot even though they can't support offspring.

Maybe it is simply that on a survival front, financial wealth will guarantee a certain level of survival while on the other hand a large family group will ensure a certain level of survival.


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## Julia (3 July 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> So the Australian welfare system makes it possible or would the types that do this expansive breeding do it anyway without community support? Thus leading to a greater poverty cycle as they experience in parts of Africa where people breed a lot even though they can't support offspring.



You're describing breeding in two very different situations.  In much of Africa, the large numbers of children occur as a result of ignorance/lack of education and inadequate access to contraception.

No such problem here in the great welfare state of Australia, where large families remove the unpleasant burden of having to work.

I recall a particular example of this back when I was working in the welfare sector:
A single woman with six children was bemoaning the fact that the eldest was about to turn 16 and she would (then) lose the family benefit payment for that teenager.
No problem though.  She stated she would just get pregnant again and not only maintain the household budget, but enjoy the baby bonus as well.  She had never worked and clearly did not intend to start.



> Maybe it is simply that on a survival front, financial wealth will guarantee a certain level of survival while on the other hand a large family group will ensure a certain level of survival.



That reasoning makes sense in countries more primitive than Australia where indeed a larger number of children are required to shore up against the likelihood of several of them dying through disease.  Doesn't hold any weight here, however.


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