# Options courses



## novice (6 September 2005)

I know there are a lot of education out there and all claim to be the best and blah and blah.

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through any of the education systems?

1-optionetics

2-Kim Riley

3-Safety in the Market 

what are your opinions?

kind regards


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## money tree (6 September 2005)

+ 4.


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## novice (6 September 2005)

mm???


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## sails (6 September 2005)

Novice, I have done Optionetics in the last couple of years and also Safety in the Market about 8 years ago so not up to date with their current courses, however I think they are still teaching the same ideas.  Will post my opinions later as a bit busy now.  Haven't done Kim Reilley's so can't help there.  Bottom line is I feel the courses were too expensive and overall did not give good value for money spent.


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## wayneL (6 September 2005)

sails said:
			
		

> Novice, I have done Optionetics in the last couple of years and also Safety in the Market about 8 years ago so not up to date with their current courses, however I think they are still teaching the same ideas.  Will post my opinions later as a bit busy now.  Haven't done Kim Reilley's so can't help there.  Bottom line is I feel the courses were too expensive and overall did not give good value for money spent.




.....and I doubt there is anything in the courses that you couldn't find out from a few books for much much less $$$$$.

I haven't done it, but Money Tree's course could be interesting though.


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## money tree (6 September 2005)

the problem with most of the $3000 courses is that they pretend there is some magic secret formula for making money from options, and they tell you its so easy a child could do it.

Trading options IS NOT easy. 

These courses often regurgitate old option strategies that can be read about in a lot of books. The difference is, they will sugar-coat it....

At the end of the day they teach you another way to pick direction. 97% of people cant do that.


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## wayneL (6 September 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> the problem with most of the $3000 courses is that they pretend there is some magic secret formula for making money from options, and they tell you its so easy a child could do it.
> 
> Trading options IS NOT easy.
> 
> ...




Then theres the ones that say covered calls are the holy grail!

Want to go on a two month holiday to Europe? Just write a few covered calls! Too Easy!


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## wayneL (6 September 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> the problem with most of the $3000 courses is that they pretend there is some magic secret formula for making money from options.




Yeah, don't tell you that the secret formula is selling $3000 courses on options! LOL


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## sails (6 September 2005)

Novice, the following is my opinion and understanding based on the time I attended Optionetics:

Positives:
-	Professional seminars with excellent instructors
-	Life time free repeats of the 2 day seminars anywhere in the world
-	Large number of attendees which is good for meeting other traders
-	Good content, but found out later where it was lacking in certain practical areas.
-	Discussion boards and lots of free articles on their site which, but they are also open to the public.  The “ask the traders” section are mostly their instructors.

Negatives:
-	High cost for the 2 day only to find it is just the beginning.  Then there is the ICT course, the masters ICT, the Advanced course, the masters Advanced, etc.  All are several thousand each.  The advanced course is only held in the US, so factor in fares and accommodation as well.  Check out the list of courses and prices in US$ on their website http://www.optionetics.com/products/seminars/store_seminars.asp

-	Costly software and subscription services are demonstrated throughout the 2 days – then you are offered “special” deals (which are genuinely discounted deals compared to normal retail prices)  in the last hour or so of the second day which were only applicable for that day.  

-	Be aware that they can change their software supplier with no warning – this has just happened.   Those who own Advanced Get now find that ProfitSource is the software of choice and seems like all future Optionetics courses may only be using this latest software.  Too bad for those who just recently purchased Advanced Get.  Some unhappy customer comments can be found on the Optionetics discussion board.  

While most students that have attended the advanced courses have glowing reports about the event itself, when asked if it has actually made a difference to their profit, the answers are usually along the lines of  “er… well… no… not really”.  Have heard of the occasional one that is doing OK, but out of the several I have met this is not the case.  I have only done the 2 day course so have no first hand knowledge of their other courses.

One other thing regarding the 300% return or money back guarantee (if it is still the same) – I believe specific conditions do apply so the refund may not be quite so simple.   I have attended two x 2 day seminars over the last couple of years and found that making money with option strategies has been very difficult and has not produced the steady income that we were looking for.  

Yes, we got sucked in by the slick marketing, wonderful testimonials and our need for income.  By the end of the 2 days, you are rationalising with yourself that, after all you are buying a business, so you really should get the proper tools (the software, subscriptions, etc).  However, the problem is that you are going in to a business that has a huge failure rate and takes a lot more than education to make it work.

Hope this helps – let me know if you have any more questions.


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## Synapse (6 September 2005)

Hi Novice,

It's great that you are taking the time to do your own research before committing to any particular Option Trading course...

I personally know over 20 graduates of one of the courses you have mentioned, and you might be surprised to hear that only 1 of them managed to achieve consistant profits for a number of months after completing the course.  Recently, though, they had a situation occur where a single trade failed badly and cost them most (if not all!) of their profits they had made up until that point in time.  Ouch! 

My opinion: I suspect that the courses marketed for thousands of dollars fail to give an accurate enough portrayal of what can go wrong when trading Options.  Furthermore, it seems that their claims of "easy money" are often exaggerated and unlikely to be achievable by the majority of their attendees.  (It makes sense, doesn't it, that if a promoter charges a lot for their course, then they have to make it sound particularly good for anyone to be interested in paying for it?!)

The disturbing part of all of this, is that I have personally noticed first-hand that most people are more interested in chasing fantasies, rather than knowing all the facts about what they are interested in.

Which of the following do you think most people would choose?

1)  An expensive and "professionally" run course, revealing the "secrets" of trading for a living by spending just "minutes a day" with virtually "no risk"; OR

2)  An inexpensive guide that explains how Options work, _without_ making any claims of easy or guaranteed profits, but requires the reader to think for themselves and be responsible for their own trading decisions.

Despite what anyone says, the actions of most people appear to demonstrate that they think choice 1 is the most appealing.  Yet, most people end up losing money trading!?  

Ask anyone who's been in the market long-term (let's say AT LEAST 3 years) to tell you about their trading experiences, and their response usually isn't very glamorous.  These people will tell you that trading takes a lot of discipline, careful money management, dedication and a significant amount of time (especially in the early days) to determine what approach actually works for them and to plan their trades.  Furthermore, most have read many Option Books, spent hours studying Pay-off diagrams and also backtested multitudes of trading systems & strategies...

Here is one simple fact about Options:  For every Contract traded, there must always be another party involved in the transaction taking the opposite side.  Whatever profit one party makes, the other party is losing.  In isolation, Options are simply a way of transferring wealth from one person to another.  *It would be impossible for everyone in the Option's Market to all profit simultaneously.*

Does it seem strange that someone who is successfully trading Options would wish to share their exact trading system with you, knowing that this could potentially lead to a situation where their "successful" system will no longer work due to an eventual lack of participants in the market that are *NOT* using their system?  Furthermore, does it seem strange that they would feel a need to share their winning strategies with you, if it was so easy to generate their own profits consistantly?  And why would they need to create a live seminar environment to share their teachings?  Couldn't it just be written in a book, or distributed via the internet as an EBook for example?

Wouldn't it be tragic if many of the Option Trading Courses on offer were based on one (or more) of the following factors:

a) A method of introducing more people into the market, encouraging trading in a manner which gives the presenter/promoter more trading opportunities by trading a _different_ system to what is being taught.  

b) A method of generating income for the presenter/promoter, as they understand some theory, but are unable to personally achieve the results that they are claiming are so easy to attain.

c) Offering a course which has little more going for it than simply flipping a coin to make trading decisions, but making it _seem_ sophisticated and then counting on the fact that most people would blame themselves, or be too embarassed, or just have too much pride, to talk about their losing trades with others.

d) Not revealing how all traders are disadvantaged with frequent trading, due to the continuous brokerage charges gradually eating away at the wealth being transferred from one participant in the Option's Market to another.  (Without some kind of "edge" to your trading, trading Options long-term will most likely ultimately lead to losses.  Ooops!  I bet that's not something anyone wants to hear!!).

... Ok, so this all probably sounds a bit gloomy by now.  But that's not really my intention.  The point I'm trying to make is that being a successful Option Trader is not necessarily an automatic outcome just from attending a seminar.  In fact, attending some of the seminars on offer could _reduce_ your chances of achieving success!

In my experience, trading Options is an ongoing, evolving process, where many of the most important aspects of it were not revealed to me without experiencing a lot of "real-life" lessons along the way.  It seems that characteristics such as my level of motivation & discipline (and also passion for what I am doing), have become more important than where I source my knowledge.  Indeed, all the knowledge in the world is of no benefit, if it is not applied in some useful way.

I suggest being very careful not to get too caught up in the hype used by many presenters/promoters of Option trading seminars/courses.  Very few people even recover the costs of the course, let alone go on to make a full-time living out of it.  Some end up much worse financially and would have actually been better off reading a book or two to see if Option Trading is something that really was of interest to them.  Believe it or not, trading Options _isn't_ for everyone!

One other point:  I have heard of at least two seemily reputable seminar companies that have very strict policies in place which make requesting a refund very difficult.  I suggest checking out any conditions imposed on issuing refunds before handing over any of your money.

Whichever way you choose to go from here, I wish you all the best with your pursuit of knowledge and achieving your financial goals... 


Kind Regards,

Jason.


P.S.  What I have written is simply my opinion as at the time of writing.  No part of this post should be considered as any form of endorsement, disparagement or investment advice.


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## money tree (7 September 2005)

excellent post Synapse!

I would add that trying to make money from options when you are a novice is like getting in the ring with the heavyweight champ. You cannot realisticly expect to take money from the professionals. they are there to take money from you! If they are smarter, more educated, better informed, more experienced and better funded than you, you must have rocks in your head if you think you can beat them at their own game.

You really need the experience and education (as a minimum) if you want to play this game. And I got bad news for ya: these seminars dont tell you the good AND the bad. 

For example: 

Many seminars claim 'covered calls' produce 4-8% a month with little risk. The truth is, covered calls retain 95% of the same risk as a naked position, and the annual return is improved by only around 5%.

If you want the truth, go with a smaller operator.


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## wayneL (7 September 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> If you want the truth, go with a smaller operator.




I totally agree. But most people don't seem to want the truth. They seem to be happy to be spun a sugar coated yarn. They want to be told they can turn their $1,487.98 (all that's left after paying the educators) into $1,000,000 by next week.

I often go to the free intro seminar of these clowns, just to observe the salesmanship and a bit of mischief making.I once met a guy at on of these, who had forked out $10k to one of the above mentioned concerns... and was considering the $6,000 course on offer.

How much did he have to invest now that he had paid for education? ... *$0.00!!!!!!!!* The six grand was going to go on the never never, and he'd have to save up for trading capital.

And he was wearing one of those silly grins as if he had just joined Amway...SHEESH!

I guess that's why the smaller operators are smaller and will stay smaller....less bullsh.., less hype, expectations are realistic....less customers!

Still, if I was running an education business, that's how I'd do it, even if it meant staying small. After all, a real trader trades! All the rest should just be a sideshow.

Cheers


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## captsunlight (17 October 2005)

Hi Folks
New here and I have also done the optionetics course I thoroughly enjoyed it and learnt a lot, I had read numerous  books prior to attending and the course was like a light going off in my head.
I must be one of those who need it graphically explained I guess.
Was it value for money I think so.

Happy trading


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## SuperTed (18 October 2005)

Now the key test is if you can make money using what you learnt in the course.

Did they talk you into buying the software??


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## happytrader (18 October 2005)

Hi there

Option courses abound and so do extremely profitable paper traders. Also a lot of these people selling courses don't actually trade or are yet to be profitable. So ask them straight up do they trade and are they profitable? 

The absolutely best way to learn to trade options is to beg someone with real results to allow you to sit in and observe them in action. Might be a little difficult but grovelling is a lot cheaper.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## imaginator (19 October 2006)

I have been to Optionetics etc.
I think these educators trying to teach the public about buying options are really smarties.

How many people really make a lot of money from buying options?
U place a bet, u got to hope the price is going to hit, plus the timing must not be too late or it will expire.

My opinion, u know why they are teaching us how to buy options and how good it is blablabla?
Because they are the one making easy money by writing/selling those options.
When u sell an option, u get the money first, it may or may not get exercised.
If doesn’t get exercise, they still get to keep their stock, AND the option money!
If it does get exercised, they sold their stock (usually at a better price than they bought initially), AND the option money!

Now, now


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## Magdoran (19 October 2006)

Fully agree with money tree, Sails (Margaret), Synapse (Jason), and Wayne.


I found myself nodding in agreement right the way through reading Synapse’s articulate and comprehensive post.  It says it all.

Margaret tells it like it is from the inside... and money tree succinctly gets to the core points.

Add Wayne’s sagacious stamp of approval (from the crypt! Ha!)  - What more do you need?


Magdoran

P.S.  Only just saw this thread… nice to see such well answered responses.


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## Hopeful (20 October 2006)

Speaking of options seminars, have I got a treat for you!

Here are some FREE and immediately-available seminars. It is the easiest way to get the basics stamped into your brain - they get to the core quickly. Reading books from cover to cover is taking me a relatively long time (I'm reading ebooks not paper ones BTW), but just click here and there and walaa - a seminar on your screen, I'm addicted to these things!

I'm yet to spend one cent on options education yet my learning curve is very steep at this stage. Donations accepted for this information, PM me for my bank details (only the stuff that folds please, nothing that jingles), cheers!

http://www.888options.com/seminars/webcasts.jsp

http://www.iseoptions.com/education/webinar.aspx

My broker, IB, also has some webinars, but you might need to be a client. Check your own broker's website.


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## Prime (18 November 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Then theres the ones that say covered calls are the holy grail!
> 
> Want to go on a two month holiday to Europe? Just write a few covered calls! Too Easy!




Funny you should say that ....

I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year! 

Did you do the same course as me?


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## wayneL (18 November 2006)

Prime said:
			
		

> Funny you should say that ....
> 
> I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year!
> 
> Did you do the same course as me?




Genius is a bull market.

Stupidity is not realising it, but I'm sure you do.


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## Prime (18 November 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Genius is a bull market.
> 
> Stupidity is not realising it, but I'm sure you do.




... and arrogance is someone using cliche's to disguise their own true capacity


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## wayneL (18 November 2006)

I'll back my capacity against anyone like you any day.

Bring it on.

So far from you, only claims, let's see some substance.


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## Hopeful (18 November 2006)

Prime, how long have you been selling CCs and naked puts (both are the same thing anyway)? 

I'm just wonderin' how you protect yourself from the nasty possibility of a stock that drops through the floor and wipes out all your small profits.

Perhaps you keep your eye on the chart daily and watch out for a moving average to turn negative or something similar?

Do you also do collars? If so, how and when do you do them as opposed to CCs or NPs?

Please tell, thanks.

Options Newbie


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## denl (19 November 2006)

Hi Novice,
I have tried a few option courses also and they have been basically useless.  Options University Master Series and Spotlight Series are both excellent.  I do not get any payment for saying this.  So far Options University is the only course material I have found that delivers excellent quality and usefull training.


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## Prime (19 November 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I'll back my capacity against anyone like you any day.
> 
> Bring it on.




Clearly you took my post as negative ... hmmm ... why did you think it was directed at you?

Since I've joined this forum I've received several esoteric little barbs from so-called experienced traders almost all of whom use overused cliches.

You can be a keyboard warrior all you like ... I wont be drawn.  I'm here to learn, if you're here to teach, then you should check your ego at the office door before you power up your computer.




> So far from you, only claims, let's see some substance.




Ahhh ... It's a pi**ing competiton you're after ... pass.

I wont post details of my accounts; but I will post pics of Italy, Greece, Turkey, Croatia and the Adriatic Coast when I get back.


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## Prime (19 November 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I'll back my capacity against anyone like you any day.
> 
> Bring it on.




... you dont know me ... how can you make judgement.

Don't bother with a reply ... you wont solicit any further response from me.

jerk.


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## ducati916 (19 November 2006)

*Prime* 

It's Sunday, the markets are closed, therefore it must be time for some argybargy.



> Funny you should say that ....
> 
> I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year!
> 
> Did you do the same course as me?






> ... you dont know me ... how can you make judgement.




From your inital post, you in point of fact insinuate that you make profits substantial enough to pay for holidays to Europe. You may in point of fact be paying for the trip by working overtime, or, as you allude, via trading profits.

The fact of the matter is that unless a trading methodology is traded live, or thereabouts, no-one is the wiser. This forum is rife with hindsight trades etc.
Anyone can be profitable in hindsight. It means absolutely nothing.

Therefore, by elimination we can start to make an informed decision;
Viz. that you imply trading profits from trading substantial enough to pay for a trip to Europe...........and no history of live trades to substantiate that implication.

Add to that the rampant use of hindsight trading that is prevalent on many internet forums, increasingly so in Bull markets, that draws the johnny-come-lately experts, and any scepticism to your allusions can be understood in this context.

jog on
d998


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## Prime (19 November 2006)

ducati916 said:
			
		

> *Prime*
> From your inital post, you in point of fact insinuate that you make profits substantial enough to pay for holidays to Europe. You may in point of fact be paying for the trip by working overtime, or, as you allude, via trading profits.




Ok, I stand corrected.  I'll state it a little more clearly.

I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year which is in whole being paid for by my trading profits.



> The fact of the matter is that unless a trading methodology is traded live, or thereabouts, no-one is the wiser. This forum is rife with hindsight trades etc.
> Anyone can be profitable in hindsight. It means absolutely nothing.
> 
> Therefore, by elimination we can start to make an informed decision;
> Viz. that you imply trading profits from trading substantial enough to pay for a trip to Europe...........and no history of live trades to substantiate that implication.




So ... every time I or anyone else make a comment on these forums we are expected to provide a complete trading history ... you've got to be joking.

... and why the double standards ... I dont see anyone else doing that ... and further more, this thread was about Trading Courses ... I was trying to inject a little humour ... 

wanyeL made a comment that abrogated the possibility of making money from CCs from these courses.  Lets see the trading historys that show good profits cant be made and perhaps we can analyse them to find out why the trades failed and then how to improve the system?

For the record, I have calculated my expectacy on CCs and NPs and it sits at +4.872 cents per US dollar traded ... when you factor in monthly turnover, brokers margin lending, thats a return on my capital  of about 9% per month.  I currently have about $114,000 over in the US.  You do the maths and then divide the figure by 0.77 for the exchange rate and you'll get an idea of my monthly income from CCs and NPs.

Yep ... CCs and NPs are gonna give me a nice little holiday in Europe ... and whilst I'm there I expect to visit a few stock exchanges and claim part of the trip on tax!



> Add to that the rampant use of hindsight trading that is prevalent on many internet forums, increasingly so in Bull markets, that draws the johnny-come-lately experts, and any scepticism to your allusions can be understood in this context.




... and to tar everyone with the same brush without knowing them is completely less than insightful and certainly not at all helpful to those interested in expanding their knowledge.

... and I never claimed to be an expert ... john come lately or any other kind.

I've said it before in these forums ... I'm here to learn.  What I do learn, I study, test and put into practice and make it work.  I learn from other peoples mistakes and my mistakes and profit from them.

If people continue to drive new members away by treating them with such disdain and disrespect then this forum site is not going to last


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## ducati916 (19 November 2006)

*Prime* 



> Ok, I stand corrected. I'll state it a little more clearly.
> 
> I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year which is in whole being paid for by my trading profits.




Ok, there now is no confusion at all.
While I do not believe that anyone is claiming money cannot be made from the above strategies, they are warning that the above strategies, particularly writing naked Puts, carries risk that is incommensurate with the reward earned...............and that further, these profits are easiest to come by in a bull market. The information regarding your trading/investing being in the US was not immediately apparent, and thus an assumption of the ASX [which is currently a bull market] was probably made.



> So ... every time I or anyone else make a comment on these forums we are expected to provide a complete trading history ... you've got to be joking.
> 
> ... and why the double standards ... I dont see anyone else doing that ... and further more, this thread was about Trading Courses ... I was trying to inject a little humour ...




No-one expects a past trading history, unless you are solicitating funds to invest on behalf of third parties. However, without some form of track record, why should anyone pay you any notice?

You claim that you make/made profits trading the aforementioned strategies.
On what evidence?
If on the other hand you had maintained some form of public tradeing journal, called in real time, we would not be having this conversation, as you would simply refer me to your thread, blog, website, and the evidence would speak for itself.

As regards double standards..........no double standards at all.
There are a number of people on this forum, and numerous others that do provide real time trading/investment calls.



> wanyeL made a comment that abrogated the possibility of making money from CCs from these courses. Lets see the trading historys that show good profits cant be made and perhaps we can analyse them to find out why the trades failed and then how to improve the system?




Well currently, we have such a thread, not exactly called live, but, dealing with exactly this topic, viz. Covered Call. From time to time options trades [live] do crop up, and they are assidiuously followed.



> For the record, I have calculated my expectacy on CCs and NPs and it sits at +4.872 cents per US dollar traded ... when you factor in monthly turnover, brokers margin lending, thats a return on my capital of about 9% per month. I currently have about $114,000 over in the US. You do the maths and then divide the figure by 0.77 for the exchange rate and you'll get an idea of my monthly income from CCs and NPs.




But there is no record.
Therefore, a total waste of time.



> ... and to tar everyone with the same brush without knowing them is completely less than insightful and certainly not at all helpful to those interested in expanding their knowledge.




Unfortunately, I disagree.
To my mind it behooves the reader to be a hardened sceptic in the realm of Financial markets. Unless there is evidence that categorically provides the verity of the assertions and or premise, nothing should be taken at face value. This is simply a long winded method of advocating the time worn phrase of; do your own research.

As an example, selling a naked Put, gives you a fixed reward, and a risk capped at 100% of the common, magnified by your leverage, this is the antithesis of sound money management. Therefore on what justification would you recommend this strategy? 



> I've said it before in these forums ... I'm here to learn. What I do learn, I study, test and put into practice and make it work. I learn from other peoples mistakes and my mistakes and profit from them.
> 
> If people continue to drive new members away by treating them with such disdain and disrespect then this forum site is not going to last




Well, mabe you were being taught a lesson?
If that is the case, you received exactly that which you sought.

The forum will continue, or it will not.
Forums [internet] tend to have some argybargy, par for the course, try not to be quite so sensitive and repudiate the attack with logical, reasoned, insightful riposte, and your fun shall know no bounds!

jog on
d998


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## ice (19 November 2006)

Prime said:
			
		

> If people continue to drive new members away by treating them with such disdain and disrespect then this forum site is not going to last




Relax, you'll do yourself an injury.   

An excellent forum this, even if much of it is over my head. I doubt it's going to fold anytime soon. 
And anyway respect is a two-way street.

ice


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## Prime (19 November 2006)

ice said:
			
		

> Relax, you'll do yourself an injury.
> 
> An excellent forum this, even if much of it is over my head. I doubt it's going to fold anytime soon.
> And anyway respect is a two-way street.
> ...




You are absolutely correct.

A comment made in jest in an effort to join in and then misinterpreted by others is not my problem.

You are also correct about respect ... I find it very hard to respect others when I'm under unprovoked attack.

I'm going to mellow out ... a nice chardonay on the balcony is in order.


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## Prime (19 November 2006)

ducati916 said:
			
		

> *Prime*
> 
> ... particularly writing naked Puts, carries risk that is incommensurate with the reward earned...............and that further, these profits are easiest to come by in a bull market.




You're going to have to explain these incommensurate risks to me ... either I've been very very lucky trade after trade after trade or ... they are no where near as risky as you claim. Please explain your stand on this issue.

Actually lets discuss this in a separate thread ... I am seriously interested in getting other peoples perspectives

BTW, the AUS market suffered a correction from about 11th May this year and so did the USA ... hardly bullish and I still made profits ... but without any evidence you're just going to have to take my word for it or not ... either way I'm still going to Europe   




> The information regarding your trading/investing being in the US was not immediately apparent, and thus an assumption of the ASX [which is currently a bull market] was probably made.




Another assumption ... I'm starting to see why no one will except my word for things that I say ... they're too busy jumping to conclusions.

Only Tech/a has ever asked me questions ... which I have gladly answered ... gotta say, didn't get much in the way of answers though.




> No-one expects a past trading history, unless you are solicitating funds to invest on behalf of third parties. However, without some form of track record, why should anyone pay you any notice?






> You claim that you make/made profits trading the aforementioned strategies.
> On what evidence?




"On what evidence?" ... "No-one expects a past trading history" ... Correct me if I'm wrong but you just did.




> If on the other hand you had maintained some form of public tradeing journal, called in real time, we would not be having this conversation, as you would simply refer me to your thread, blog, website, and the evidence would speak for itself.




Are there really people out there that air their dirty laundry ... honestly?  I don't run a website or blog ... you cant be serious ... But I'll take this suggestion under advisement ... It would be so easy to fiddle these authentic records that their credibility should never be believed. (I used to run a web server ... ANYTHING can be edited!)




> As regards double standards..........no double standards at all.
> There are a number of people on this forum, and numerous others that do provide real time trading/investment calls.




Good.  Where do I find them? I't will be fun to monitor them.  Mind you, I never purported to provide tips ... all I did was say that I made some good profits.  I don't have to justify them to anyone.  c u in Rome!   (that was humour in cased it was missed)




> Well currently, we have such a thread, not exactly called live, but, dealing with exactly this topic, viz. Covered Call. From time to time options trades [live] do crop up, and they are assidiuously followed.
> 
> But there is no record.
> Therefore, a total waste of time.




I'll check that thread out ... thanks for the pointer.




> Unfortunately, I disagree.
> To my mind it behooves the reader to be a hardened sceptic in the realm of Financial markets. Unless there is evidence that categorically provides the verity of the assertions and or premise, nothing should be taken at face value. This is simply a long winded method of advocating the time worn phrase of; do your own research.




You make it sound like it really matters that someone comes along and tells the truth or not.

In the context of the statement I made;

If I'm lying ... so what ... I'm only kidding myself.
If I'm telling the truth ... so what ... I'm off to Europe.

Either way ... the reader has to make up their own mind ... I said nothing that would cause a reader to lose money if they acted ... even if they could act.  On the flip side, I've seen heaps of posts about ASX direct stocks where opinions were stated without question.  If this isn't a double standard I'm not sure what is.

Lets get back to the original post that caused this angst ...

I said:
"Funny you should say that ....

I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year! "

Note the word funny in my post ...
... did I ever say anything that demanded such intense scrutiny? Did I say anything that demanded that the verasity of my statements be checked and scrutinised to the nth degree. No.




> As an example, selling a naked Put, gives you a fixed reward, and a risk capped at 100% of the common, magnified by your leverage, this is the antithesis of sound money management. Therefore on what justification would you recommend this strategy?




I would justify this strategy when all of the indicators (technical and fundamental) in my system say "Do it!" ... you said it yourself ... "Do your own research".




> Well, mabe you were being taught a lesson?
> If that is the case, you received exactly that which you sought.
> 
> The forum will continue, or it will not.
> Forums [internet] tend to have some argybargy, par for the course,




Lessons should be taught by those qualified to teach them.  I have seen little evidence to date to verify the qualifications of those that seek to "teach".




> ... try not to be quite so sensitive and repudiate the attack with logical, reasoned, insightful riposte, and your fun shall know no bounds!
> 
> jog on
> d998




That is, without doubt the best (and only descent) advice I've had in these forums since I joined.

I trust this response was logical,reasoned and insightful.


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## wayneL (19 November 2006)

denl said:
			
		

> Hi Novice,
> I have tried a few option courses also and they have been basically useless.  Options University Master Series and Spotlight Series are both excellent.  I do not get any payment for saying this.  So far Options University is the only course material I have found that delivers excellent quality and usefull training.




Hi denl,

I've said so on another forum, but once again I will agree with you here. Their's is the only worthwhile course I've seen anywhere. (that's available to retail traders).

Cheers


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## wayneL (19 November 2006)

Prime said:
			
		

> You are absolutely correct.
> 
> A comment made in jest in an effort to join in and then misinterpreted by others is not my problem.
> 
> ...




I need not say anything that Ducati has already said.

But as a point of order: Your initial post in this thread was quoting me. Your comments seemed to be more of an attempt to satirize, than amuse. Therefore if you believe you have been attacked, it was not unprovoked, but rather as the result of said provocation.

All subsequent protestations of injustice from you seem to me to be a case of "He(she?) doth protest too much!"

As far as respect: Until there is some substance from you with regards to your assertions of profitability/expectancy etc, you will receive respect only from the most gullible.

However, everyone is deserving of a chance to prove oneself and as such, I am looking forward to some worthy input.

Cheers


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## ducati916 (20 November 2006)

*Prime* 



> You're going to have to explain these incommensurate risks to me ... either I've been very very lucky trade after trade after trade or ... they are no where near as risky as you claim. Please explain your stand on this issue.




As later stated;



> Quote:
> As an example, selling a naked Put, gives you a fixed reward, and a risk capped at 100% of the common, magnified by your leverage, this is the antithesis of sound money management. Therefore on what justification would you recommend this strategy?




But a naked Put is selling [short] the Put.
As a derivatives pricing is derived from the underlying [common stock for eg.]
If the common stock is delisted [bankruptcy] the common price falls to $0.0
This = 100% loss in the common.
The derivative, will thus lose 100% * leverage, thus, your potential risk is large .........100%*20 = 2000%
Your reward, the initial premium, is fixed.
Therefore, the risk/reward ratio is incommensurate to sound money management.



> I would justify this strategy when all of the indicators (technical and fundamental) in my system say "Do it!" ... you said it yourself ... "Do your own research".




This following statement is precisely why you are taking some criticism.
The technical or fundamental *indicators* that you refer to, are in essence your *entry criteria* They explain nothing about risk. That risk is being assumed, on the trigger of an oscillator, trendline, etc........and or a fundamental factor that correlates * directly to the underlying*. It does not however correlate in a linear equation to the derivative. The relationship is calculated via a non-linear equation, thus, immediately, the risk/reward ratio becomes unbalanced.

This needs to be addressed, and there are many ways to do so, which is the subject of many discussions on this forum and others.
A naked Put as a strategy implies that you do not fully comprehend the position, and hence the comments from other posters.

The naked Put violates this basic principal, due to the unbalanced nature of the R/R ratio, and is thus considered a foolhardy strategy.



> "On what evidence?" ... "No-one expects a past trading history" ... Correct me if I'm wrong but you just did.




If you claim results;



> For the record, I have calculated my expectacy on CCs and NPs and it sits at +4.872 cents per US dollar traded ... when you factor in monthly turnover, brokers margin lending, thats a return on my capital of about 9% per month. I currently have about $114,000 over in the US. You do the maths and then divide the figure by 0.77 for the exchange rate and you'll get an idea of my monthly income from CCs and NPs.
> 
> Yep ... CCs and NPs are gonna give me a nice little holiday in Europe ... and whilst I'm there I expect to visit a few stock exchanges and claim part of the trip on tax!




Then you need the evidence, from a public resource that verifies your claim.
Now I'm not interested in how much money you place in a trade, I'm not interested in how much money you have.............what I am interested in is the % return on a trade, opened and closed in real time, in public, over a period of years preferrably, but that obviously takes time.

Therefore, for discussion and debate purposes, no trading history is required, opinions are free, and yours is as valid as mine etc.

However, when you seek to justify an assertion via the success of your trading...........







> you need to have the evidence to support that stance




Currently, you have no record.
Therefore, don't waste my time with nonsense.



> Good. Where do I find them? I't will be fun to monitor them. Mind you, I never purported to provide tips ... all I did was say that I made some good profits. I don't have to justify them to anyone. c u in Rome!  (that was humour in cased it was missed)




You were lambasted for providing erroneous information without context.
Viz. Profitability without accounting for the high risk nature of those profits, seemingly justified by a trip to Europe. [all carrot, no stick]

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000417

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000004

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000003

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000433



> Lessons should be taught by those qualified to teach them. I have seen little evidence to date to verify the qualifications of those that seek to "teach".




Qualifications will mean different things to different people.
The bottom line, however can always be measured in %return or dollars.
Hence the requirement for a verifiable trading strategy.
I can claim anything I choose.
But can I show you with real time trade calls?
If I can, then, even if I'm a bouncer, I'm qualified.



> I trust this response was logical,reasoned and insightful.




No.
But I appreciate the fact that you are making an effort, therefore I am quite willing to expand on some of your rather hairsplitting observations.


jog on
d998


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## ducati916 (20 November 2006)

And one more example;

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=79;t=000004;p=4#000058

jog on
d998


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## bingk6 (20 November 2006)

prime said:
			
		

> I've said it before in these forums ... I'm here to learn. What I do learn, I study, test and put into practice and make it work. I learn from other peoples mistakes and my mistakes and profit from them.




Hi Prime,

Just a word of advise. If you are here to learn, you should not antagonise one of the very few people on this forum who are genuinely able to broaden your knowledge. WayneL has selflessly spent a great deal of his time discussing the various aspects of options trading in an attempt to raise awareness as  well as to educate. I for one have found his contribution invaluable.

The issue of using NP is a personal one, and as duc has pointed out, it has limited reward and potentially unlimited risk, and is therefore not something you would recommend to everybody. Having said that, I do use NP quite a lot myself, but I understand the implications involved and so I take my chances accordingly.

However, I have also witnessed WayneL's now famous FRX Diagonal spread trade. Notwithstanding the fact that he made a vega risk miscalculation, it was the principal of what he was able to achieve with the usage of volatility skew that really caught my eye. When opportunities such as these arise, he was able to literally "lift" the entire risk curve, so that only at very small range of strikes were the transaction unprofitable. In other words, there were large range of strikes that profitable, a key ingredient in the risk/reward analysis. 

To my mind of thinking, this type of trading is far superior to the NP and I would suggest that you evaluate some of WayneL's previous post to see what you can glean from it, rather than engage in some meaningless debate on chest beating.

Just my


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## Prime (20 November 2006)

bingk6 said:
			
		

> Hi Prime,
> 
> Just a word of advise. If you are here to learn, you should not antagonise one of the very few people on this forum who are genuinely able to broaden your knowledge. WayneL has selflessly spent a great deal of his time discussing the various aspects of options trading in an attempt to raise awareness as  well as to educate. I for one have found his contribution invaluable.




Your assessment of wayneL seems to be on the money.  Over the week-end I spent a considerable amount of time reading other threads in the forum and he clearly demonstrated sound and diverse knowledge of the subject.




> The issue of using NP is a personal one, and as duc has pointed out, it has limited reward and potentially unlimited risk, and is therefore not something you would recommend to everybody. Having said that, I do use NP quite a lot myself, but I understand the implications involved and so I take my chances accordingly.




Ditto.  Risk management and money management and extensive research reduce these risk considerably.




> However, I have also witnessed WayneL's now famous FRX Diagonal spread trade. Notwithstanding the fact that he made a vega risk miscalculation, it was the principal of what he was able to achieve with the usage of volatility skew that really caught my eye. When opportunities such as these arise, he was able to literally "lift" the entire risk curve, so that only at very small range of strikes were the transaction unprofitable. In other words, there were large range of strikes that profitable, a key ingredient in the risk/reward analysis.
> 
> To my mind of thinking, this type of trading is far superior to the NP and I would suggest that you evaluate some of WayneL's previous post to see what you can glean from it, rather than engage in some meaningless debate on chest beating.
> 
> Just my




I'll have to search for it ... it sounds intriguing.

thanks for your 2c


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## bingk6 (20 November 2006)

Prime said:
			
		

> I'll have to search for it ... it sounds intriguing.




Here is the link for it. Lots of valuable info in it. Well worth a read.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3884


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## Prime (20 November 2006)

Thanks for the link ...

I started to read from the beginning ... (always a good place to start) ... the original diagrams that wayneL posted don't seem to display.  I don't spose anyone has a copy of the diagrams?


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