# Are there any recommended trading courses?



## LinSA (1 June 2018)

I want to learn how to trade stocks (or whatever it is called, I am so new I am in Kindy!).  As an absolute total beginner, I need a way to learn that isn't going to be too overwhelming.  Sure I can go on youtube, google, books, but goodness knows what mis information may end up whirling in my head and eventually whirling down my bank account.

I had hoped I could find an organisation to train me.  But I can't see any of them recommended in here.  I have been researching several, most have very dubious backgrounds and absolutely no good reviews from students who have been using their methods for a period of time, well not legitimate ones anyway.  As I previously spent a lot on property training of that kind I am more careful now.  However one that I found Terry Tran - Freedom Traders, seems to have good reviews with people earning good annual profits.  Plus I contacted some of the students and found that they have continued to go well.  This has given me hope.

However I see in this forum that nobody really recommends any of these expensive courses.  But if I don't go to one of them.... where do I learn in a safe way that doesn't chew up my learning while learning the hard way?


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## tech/a (1 June 2018)

This is a good question and one seen many times before worded in different ways.

This is what took my eye



LinSA said:


> But if I don't go to one of them.... where do *I learn in a safe way* that doesn't chew up my learning while learning the hard way?




Truth is you just never know who in the field of training in trading the stock market is reputable.
The old ---if they were that good why would they not just trade.

So in answer to your question---at least the quoted part above.

(1) Any course is part of your training and the cost of it is simply part of the cost of doing business the business of trading. If you could buy a profitable trading business what would you pay?
If it made $250,000 a year after tax then you'd expect around $750,000 to $1.2 million.
So investing a few k in your training is not a biggie. You will have to invest both time and money.
Lots of time! You'll just have to do your due diligence and choose what you want to learn and go and learn it.
(2) Safety and your bank account.
Simply trade a demo account using what you've learned. Trade with your own $s when you have learnt all you can on controlling RISK.

Start with the search function here on topics you'd like to cover.
Look at Pete 2 threads he actually shows you HOW to trade profitably for NOTHING.

There is NO silver bullet.
Just like all businesses.
Some succeed and some (Most fail) in exactly the same business.

Enjoy
Its worth the time and effort.


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## dutchie (1 June 2018)

Hi LinSA
Welcome to ASF.
There is a lot of useful information in here that can start you on your journey.
My personal advise would be not to buy any course (admittedly I am biased as I have never done a course). But you do need to invest in a lot of time.
It's a business/profession and it takes time to run/learn it. It is possible to educate yourself on the internet (including this forum), as you become more educated you are able to be more selective as to what you read and who to trust.
You would do a lot worse if you read some of the threads and some of the posters (including tech/a) here.
ASF is very welcoming and members are generous with their time - just ask a question.
Good luck with your journey.


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## tech/a (1 June 2018)

So here is a *serious question* to all who come to this thread.

*What would you pay for*

Would you pay for a method which showed wether your idea was profitable (For example).
Would you pay to have Can Oz show you how he trades Market profile.
Would you pay for Peter 2 to show you how to trade.
Would you pay for me to teach you VSA. (Volume spread analysis ) and Risk mitigation.
Would you pay T/H to walk you through reading depth.

*What would you pay for?*

Next question.

*What would you pay in $$s.
*
If any of the above or all of the above had a potential of pointing you in the direction
(Subject to available capital) of making $1000 to $100,000 to Multiple times that consistently.

Is this the *ONLY* field where participants either cant find or think that they can become expert enough to become proficient without paid education.

Yet this area of expertise is where we put our hard earned---its more important than any other--financially. We wouldn't put our hard earned in the hands of a novice financial planner---we would want him to get some education----yet we are happy to take control of our own finances but not pay for education cant get more novice than that.!


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## peter2 (1 June 2018)

@LinSA   It's really hard to provide you with suitable information because your initial query is too vague. 

If you want to learn the mechanics of buying and selling stocks, the ASX provides courses/lectures regularly. They also have presentations demonstrating a variety of analytical techniques.  Not for profit organisations like the Aust Investors Assoc (AIA) and Aust Technical Analysts Assoc (ATAA) have monthly presentations from a variety of people involved in the financial industry. I would encourage you attend a few presentations and consider joining one of them. You should also read as much as you can about trading/investing.

While you're doing this research you should take note of the methods that appeal to you. If you have an accounting/economics background you may prefer to research companies and their financial reports in some detail. If you have a science or engineering background then you may prefer to base your analysis on the price charts. Or you may decide you like a bit of each. 

It can get quite overwhelming realising that there's thousands of analytical techniques available to you. I can't recommend any one source for you because I don't know what might suit you. 

Another aspect that you should consider carefully is your own circumstances. Why are you doing this? What have you got to start with?
(Knowledge = nil, business plan = no, money = maybe, time to do this = how much can you spare)
This is a serious business if you want to do it profitably. 

There's no rush. Take your time. The markets will be there when you're ready to start.


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

That is true tech/a... I could spend $5,000 in making mistakes, or I could pay $5,000 for somebody to teach me all the tricks, and save me tons of time, and it is an investment.  Good way to look at it.  And it isn't tens of thousands like we spent on property courses!!!!


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## Mr Bear (1 June 2018)

Plenty of advice but no-one mentioned what they spent time or money..

Some of this is embarrasing but hopefully a confessional will make me feel better..

I spent the following: ( originally I had an obsession trading the SPI )

*Losses*
Trading Tigers $8,800, total scam, my biggest regret and still pisses me off today.

Frank Dilernia - Not sure how much maybe $500 but not for me, I'm sure he's profitable but effectively a glorified moving average. 

Camron Systems - $3,000, conflicted on this as well, didn't make a single dollar out of this, possible it was profitable at some point, I did learn but it was irrelevant, I reckon I spent over 2,000 hours working on this and two years of effort which looking back with my current strategy could have been the most profitable time of my life. Biggest waste of my time not $$ but in aggregate the most expensive thing I wasted my time/money on.

And my very first waste of money was straight out of school and spent $200 on some website that backdated charts to make it look like they were picking the tops and bottoms of trends, years later I read about the guy that ran it, it was a well known scam.

*Profits*
Masters of Applied Finance - $30,000, best investment I made, obviously very costly and not for everyone but I'm passionate about investing and wanted to make finance my life. I learnt things that allowed me to piece everything I learnt prior together, it was that moment of the fog rising and I could see clearly. Out of this is the basis of what I trade today which is back in stocks and not trading SPI contracts.

Bloomberg licence - $30,000 a year, I admit this is extreme but I couldn't trade without it, I reckon I've spent over 10,000 hours researching different strategies on this system, they have almost every piece of information you could possibly think of and various ways to splice it, the data and information is worth every penny.

Plenty of investment books, can't list them all but just read and keep reading, whether it be on this blog or elsewhere, just keep reading and researching is my advice. SSRN is a favourite of mine for academic research and highlights how slim some of the edges are.


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

peter2 yes it is a minefield, so confusing, that is why I thought it might be clever to pay somebody to teach me a method that seems to work for many.  I do have time at home, and am very excited and serious about treating this like a job to work at every day.  I had wanted to do property, but circumstances prevent that for a few years, but this I could do right now once I learn how, even if to just get a little ahead in the beginning and when I get really good make a proper living from it I hope.  I just didn't want to get caught up with any more sharks, I have enough bite marks already


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## luutzu (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> That is true tech/a... I could spend $5,000 in making mistakes, or I could pay $5,000 for somebody to teach me all the tricks, and save me tons of time, and it is an investment.  Good way to look at it.  And it isn't tens of thousands like we spent on property courses!!!!




No relation to Terry Tran? 

Would that someone teaching us all the tricks for a measly $5K be a Mr Tran?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

Huh, I don't understand your question luutzu?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> No relation to Terry Tran?
> 
> Would that someone teaching us all the tricks for a measly $5K be a Mr Tran?




ooooh now I understand.  Yes Terry Tran.  How did you guess that?  There would be a few different ones out there I'd imagine who would all charge a similar amount?  Have you worked with him?


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## tech/a (1 June 2018)

You spent $10s of 000s on property courses.

What did you learn?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

Nothing I can use.  I did the wrong courses, they sounded good at the time.  But now I realise they didn't disclose all of the details and the only way to make it work would not suit us anyway.  Don't want to do that again so am extra cautious.


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## luutzu (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> ooooh now I understand.  Yes Terry Tran.  How did you guess that?  There would be a few different ones out there I'd imagine who would all charge a similar amount?  Have you worked with him?




No. But I might just met someone who does


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

oh ok, that would be good.  Just doing my due diligence now.  I have spoken to a couple of people who have done his course who seem happy.


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## luutzu (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> oh ok, that would be good.  Just doing my due diligence now.  I have spoken to a couple of people who have done his course who seem happy.




You have his website handy?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

Yes it is http://www.thefreedomtrader.com and he is also on Facebook with plenty of reviews.


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## Wysiwyg (1 June 2018)

Don't forget Tim Sykes.  (just joking)


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## cynic (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> oh ok, that would be good.  Just doing my due diligence now.  I have spoken to a couple of people who have done his course who seem happy.



Out of interest, have you tried verifying the efficacy of your "due diligence"  process, via examination of those educators whom disappointed you in the past?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

cynic said:


> Out of interest, have you tried verifying the efficacy of your "due diligence"  process, via examination of those educators whom disappointed you in the past?



What do you mean?  Do you mean I should examine the people I have spent money with before to compare to who I am looking at going with this time?  They are worlds apart in the what they offer and what I can find on them.


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## cynic (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> What do you mean?  Do you mean I should examine the people I have spent money with before to compare to who I am looking at going with this time?  They are worlds apart in the what they offer and what I can find on them.



So are you saying that the educators with whom you have been dissatisfied, didn't have any favourable student testimonials and/or reviews?


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## LinSA (1 June 2018)

No, I was naive.  They were so good at their spiels that what they said sounded perfectly logical and fool proof.  Turns out I was a fool, haha.  

Several of the people offering courses in stocks have reviews but you can see they are just reviews saying 'just finished the bootcamp it was great', which really means nothing.  Some stock course groups don't have reviews enabled, another tell tale sign.  

But this one I am looking at has several reviews saying things like 'I have increased my savings by 15%' and 'I have finished my first year and made 19% profit', well things kind of like that.  So that to me is a good sign.  And that they have a group for people who have joined the course to discuss everything, plus I was able to get in touch with previous participants to see how they have gone.  

So it certainly seems very different.  I am just extra cautious, and when I see non favourable comments in groups like this it makes me wonder if I am just being foolish again.  So that led me to ask whether what I am looking at makes sense or if there is another better way to learn.


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## greggles (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> But this one I am looking at has several reviews saying things like 'I have increased my savings by 15%' and 'I have finished my first year and made 19% profit', well things kind of like that.  So that to me is a good sign.




Lin, I don't mean to be cynical but reviews on the internet are next to worthless. There are more fake reviews on the internet than real ones. The only evidence that someone can trade profitably is broker statements that demonstrate profitable trading. Everything else is just talk.

Why not start with a book for $50 instead of a course for $5000? The outlay is a lot smaller and you will at least learn the basics of the stock market in the process.


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## cynic (1 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> No, I was naive.  They were so good at their spiels that what they said sounded perfectly logical and fool proof.  Turns out I was a fool, haha.
> 
> Several of the people offering courses in stocks have reviews but you can see they are just reviews saying 'just finished the bootcamp it was great', which really means nothing.  Some stock course groups don't have reviews enabled, another tell tale sign.
> 
> ...



I know of a number of other "educators" with whom similarly favourable reviews and testimonials feature. Suffice to say, upon meeting with actual past graduates and speaking with them at greater length,the reality fell a long way short of the impression given by the published testimonials.

However, I cannot speak directly to the quality of Terry Tran's particular offering/s, as I have never studied his materials nor been engaged in discussion about such with anyone who has.

You mentioned speaking to a couple of people who have already done the course.
When and how did you first make their acquaintance?


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## tech/a (2 June 2018)

Like all business its all about the Numbers.

Same with Property 
Same with Trading
Same with coin collecting
Same with Art investment.

Income exceeds expenditure.

I posted this a few years ago.
With regard to TRADING


*There are NO SECRETS* and here they are!

Firstly *ALL* analysis "works" in a bull market. Anyone can make a profit in a strongly trending bull market--just ask your local taxi driver.

Its pretty common knowledge and one of the *TRUE* truisms of trading/investing that the market will trend 30% of the time and either distribute or accumulate in consolidations during the other times--70 %.

Its also true that there will be trends in sometime frame at any one time--during consolidations.

So if we are going to trade/invest profitably we best be able to recognise that we need to find a trend 2 bars or more--in a time frame so we can profit.

Our analysis---at best--- points us to set-ups which give us the ability to anticipate price action both--- Fundamental and Technical. At best its a 50/50 result over very long periods but by identifying where we are in a move (Consolidation or Trend) in a time frame we can be better prepared to trade or invest in the time frame chosen.

We should be constantly looking for set-ups which point to a trend --- be it within a lower time-frame in a consolidation or a breakout in any time frame.

Most trends last longer than expected and most consolidations resist breaking out in either direction longer than expected. 
In the short term we can identify time periods which are likely to trend in a direction for a number of bars ( Trend or Counter trend trades).This can swing the odds in our favour---giving us one string to the bow of profit---*anticipation*.

*Radge* once said that* " It doesn't matter if your wrong---only how long you stay wrong "*

So the best way to minimise loss through being wrong too long is to have either a stop loss---OR a mechanism in your analysis which tells you that your analysis is wrong---quick enough to mitigate risk.

*"Let your winners run"*
The next string to the bow. You need to have either an anticipated target OR a mechanism to determine the end of your trading trend in your time frame which maximises your time in a trade in your chosen direction.

You see there are ONLY 3 ways (Other than Arbitrage) That you can profit from your Trading/Investing.

More aggregate wining profitable trades than aggregate losing trades.
OR
Bigger aggregate Winning trades to Aggregate losing trades.
OR
A combination of both.

So in that thread I mentioned that it doesn't matter if you find your analysis doesn't pan out or you read it wrong.
The reason.

If you know the above and you've put those understandings in place you'll be trading time frames and set-ups that in the long run will deliver you positive expectancy through your trade management and the understanding that there are *NO SECRETS*. 

The traders trap is to constantly buy that new book or try that new trading technique
in the hope that it will find and give an* EDGE*.

That edge is staring you in the face 
*REGARDLESS OF METHOD USED.*


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## investtrader (2 June 2018)

LinSa,
Start with a few books, they are pretty cheap. Try Darryl Guppy 'Trend Trading' and then Mark Douglas 'Trading in the Zone' will help you develop the right mind set.
Alan Hull and Nick Radge and their newsletters are the real deal, if you find you want to use a signal service(and no harm in that). They both have courses (or they used to) which are not a waste of money.
And if you don't want to be a slave to your trading business, try weekly charts/systems.


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## LinSA (2 June 2018)

greggles said:


> Lin, I don't mean to be cynical but reviews on the internet are next to worthless. There are more fake reviews on the internet than real ones. The only evidence that someone can trade profitably is broker statements that demonstrate profitable trading. Everything else is just talk.
> 
> Why not start with a book for $50 instead of a course for $5000? The outlay is a lot smaller and you will at least learn the basics of the stock market in the process.




& cynic also...
The reviews are on Facebook, so all individual real profiles, as in you can click and look at the profiles.  Plus I contacted some who live in Australia and my same state and had a chat to them about it.  I wasn't going to be satisfied this time with a first name only on a web page, I wanted to speak to real people.  There is also a 14 day money back guarantee and in that time I will be able to go into the facebook group which has about 280 people and have a good chat to them.

Book wise, look I am even stumbling over tech/a's response, I just feel having kids has dumbed me down too much to be able to wrap my head around anything too complicated.  I was very cluey, so I have a chance, just got to wake up my brain cells again.  So I am hoping to find something really easy, basic, to get my head around it all, and then I can move up in my knowledge from there as I am aware I will need to study for years to be really proficient in my understanding of this.

A side question, I am hoping to be able to work for an hour a day studying stocks (once I have done my learning about how to do all of this of course), put in my purchase requests (talking US stocks) and try to average 1.25% per month (or 15% per year).  Does that sound reasonable or ridiculous?  Some of the people I spoke to from the course were gaining more than that in their first year.


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## Triathlete (2 June 2018)

Is there a reason to go with US stocks?


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## greggles (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Book wise, look I am even stumbling over tech/a's response, I just feel having kids has dumbed me down too much to be able to wrap my head around anything too complicated.  I was very cluey, so I have a chance, just got to wake up my brain cells again.  So I am hoping to find something really easy, basic, to get my head around it all, and then I can move up in my knowledge from there as I am aware I will need to study for years to be really proficient in my understanding of this.




Lin, your error is believing that becoming a profitable trader is easy and that all you need to do is a course where a "guru" shows you how its done and then you start making easy money. That's a dream, not reality. It doesn't work like that, but the spruikers want you to believe it does because their job is selling you a product to make *themselves* rich, not you.

If doing a course was all you needed to become successful at something you would already be a successful property investor based on the amount of money you have spent on property courses. That didn't work out, so now you are looking for another way to make easy money. Easy money is a dream. Success in anything is a long road paved by hard work and perseverance. 

Here's a book that is widely considered a classic: Come Into My Trading Room : A Complete Guide to Trading

It is exactly 1.157% the cost of a $5,000 course. Doesn't it make sense to dip your toes in first and see if trading financial markets is for you?


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## LinSA (2 June 2018)

greggles said:


> Lin, your error is believing that becoming a profitable trader is easy and that all you need to do is a course where a "guru" shows you how its done and then you start making easy money. That's a dream, not reality. It doesn't work like that, but the spruikers want you to believe it does because their job is selling you a product to make *themselves* rich, not you.
> 
> If doing a course was all you needed to become successful at something you would already be a successful property investor based on the amount of money you have spent on property courses. That didn't work out, so now you are looking for another way to make easy money. Easy money is a dream. Success in anything is a long road paved by hard work and perseverance.
> 
> ...




I never actually said I wanted to make easy money, and I thought I could just do a really quick course and become rich.  I think you have taken what I have said out of context.  I expect to study, spend years of learning, and then more years learning more.  What I have said is I don't have the brain capacity to weave my way through hundreds of books and online articles trying to work out a whole lot of complicated information.  I either need to find the best ones to look at, or find a course that will weed out all the garble for me and give me a good starting place of understanding from where I can start to dip my toes while I continue to learn more.

With the property course, even then I didn't expect easy.  I spent many many hours through the night trying their methods to find in the end that what they told me I could do from Australia around my family could not actually be done and I realistically had to travel over to US, which for family and monetary reasons I could not.  So again, not looking for easy, more than prepared to put in the work, but that learning is all useless to me if I cannot go over there.

I have come in to see if I am silly to spend $5000 for somebody to weed out that garble and get me to a starting point for me to continue my learning with a better understanding, or if there is another method that can get me to that same point without too much confusion and in the same amount of time.


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## Triathlete (2 June 2018)

www.thechartist.com.au/Videos/earn-a-second-income.html


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## willy1111 (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> A side question, I am hoping to be able to work for an hour a day studying stocks (once I have done my learning about how to do all of this of course), put in my purchase requests (talking US stocks) and try to average 1.25% per month (or 15% per year).  Does that sound reasonable or ridiculous?  Some of the people I spoke to from the course were gaining more than that in their first year.




What if I were to say you may be able to get returns like that or more spending 30 mins a week or 30 mins a month? Without looking at charts saying, should this trend line go here or there, what about this support line, hmmm, etc.

80% plus of being able to make money from the market is physocological.

20% or less is technical.

Beginners don't realise this and search and search and search for the magic methods to make money, 'the holy grail'. They buy book after book, do course after course. Also referred to as the beginners cycle by my mentor.

Sometimes it just never clicks for them as they can't get their head around the physocological aspect which is the most important part. You may not realise this until you begin.

You may spend $5k on this course you are talking about, find out all the pieces of his method but then can't trade it over the long term due to physocological factors or it doesn't fit with your lifestyle. if you have a string of losers will you stop, if you go into draw down will you stop, if it takes up to much time will you stop.

Will you have enough confidence in yourself to keep taking trades when you encounter difficulties. Will you start to doubt yourself or the method when things don't go as expected. Where are your expectations coming from.

These are rhetorical questions, but it is likely you will encounter them and many more if you start to trade, regardless of which methods (or from whom you learn them or how much you pay for them), you chose to apply to the market.

The mentor where it all clicked into place for me was and still is Nick Radge of the Chartist, https://www.thechartist.com.au/Press/moving-averages-podcast-with-nick-radge.html this is a very recent 30 min podcast interview and will give you a flavour for Nick and his ideas.

Good luck with your journey.


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## LinSA (2 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> Is there a reason to go with US stocks?



From what I have been told, and what little I know, I can put orders to purchase and go to bed with US stocks.  Can't with Australian, and there is apparently more opportunity over there?  That is all I know though.


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## Triathlete (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> From what I have been told, and what little I know, I can put orders to purchase and go to bed with US stocks.  Can't with Australian, and there is apparently more opportunity over there?  That is all I know though.




Who told you that rubbish???

I have been trading CFD"s and short selling in one ASX top 50 stock and been averaging 8% a month over the last 5 months...


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## LinSA (2 June 2018)

willy1111 said:


> What if I were to say you may be able to get returns like that or more spending 30 mins a week or 30 mins a month? Without looking at charts saying, should this trend line go here or there, what about this support line, hmmm, etc.
> 
> 80% plus of being able to make money from the market is physocological.
> 
> ...



Are you talking belief, manifesting?  I am doing a lot of work around that right now alongside this.  I know one thing about stocks, they seem really exciting.  Based on my experience with things I have done in the past, and what I love to do, it does sound like something I would really enjoy having a go at and trying to succeed at.


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## greggles (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I never actually said I wanted to make easy money, and I thought I could just do a really quick course and become rich.  I think you have taken what I have said out of context.  I expect to study, spend years of learning, and then more years learning more.  What I have said is I don't have the brain capacity to weave my way through hundreds of books and online articles trying to work out a whole lot of complicated information.  I either need to find the best ones to look at, or find a course that will weed out all the garble for me and give me a good starting place of understanding from where I can start to dip my toes while I continue to learn more.



If I have misrepresented what you are setting out to achieve, then I apologise. Just understand that it's not possible to make things so simple that you eliminate all complexity and "weed out all the garble" completely. There is a certain amount of complexity that is inherent, but if you start from the beginning with learning and understanding simple concepts you can build your knowledge slowly. That is really the only way and it's not easy but it doesn't have to be expensive.



LinSA said:


> With the property course, even then I didn't expect easy.  I spent many many hours through the night trying their methods to find in the end that what they told me I could do from Australia around my family could not actually be done and I realistically had to travel over to US, which for family and monetary reasons I could not.  So again, not looking for easy, more than prepared to put in the work, but that learning is all useless to me if I cannot go over there.



At least you have learned from your experiences with real estate courses that expensive courses do not equal success.



LinSA said:


> I have come in to see if I am silly to spend $5000 for somebody to weed out that garble and get me to a starting point for me to continue my learning with a better understanding, or if there is another method that can get me to that same point without too much confusion and in the same amount of time.



Yes, I honestly think you would be making a mistake by going down that route. You will waste a lot of your valuable capital unnecessarily. There is nothing a $5,000 trading course can teach you that you can't learn from a good book on the same topic for much less. Spending more doesn't get you more.

Make a note of some of the suggested books in this thread and investigate further.


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## LinSA (2 June 2018)

greggles said:


> If I have misrepresented what you are setting out to achieve, then I apologise. Just understand that it's not possible to make things so simple that you eliminate all complexity and "weed out all the garble" completely. There is a certain amount of complexity that is inherent, but if you start from the beginning with learning and understanding simple concepts you can build your knowledge slowly. That is really the only way and it's not easy but it doesn't have to be expensive.
> 
> 
> At least you have learned from your experiences with real estate courses that expensive courses do not equal success.
> ...



Thank you.  Yes I sure did learn, thus why coming in and being painful about asking about a measly $5,000.  But really we don't have a lot left to start our journey with so I need to be careful.

A question for you.... could I potentially lose more than $5,000 in mistakes by ending up reading the wrong information or missing important points that others have learned the hard way?  That is what I was thinking the course might offer over the books and really the ONLY reason I am considering it.  I could be wrong, of course that is why I have come in here, but my inkling and with the success of the students who have done his course is that maybe he can point out the pointers I might miss?


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## willy1111 (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I have come in to see if I am silly to spend $5000 for somebody to weed out that garble and get me to a starting point for me to continue my learning with a better understanding, or if there is another method that can get me to that same point without too much confusion and in the same amount of time.




This is a strategy (the 20% part).

Weekend Trend Trader available on Amazon Kindle or 
https://www.thechartist.com.au/e-Books/product/16-weekend-trend-trader-ebook.html

For less than $10.

Simulations of this strategy from 1995 to 2012 show compounded returns in excess of 20%p.a.

I wouldn't be spending $5k, I would start with the above.


----------



## greggles (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Thank you.  Yes I sure did learn, thus why coming in and being painful about asking about a measly $5,000.  But really we don't have a lot left to start our journey with so I need to be careful.




If you don't have a lot left to start your journey then why spend $5,000? It's not a "measly" amount, it's a lot of money.



LinSA said:


> A question for you.... could I potentially lose more than $5,000 in mistakes by ending up reading the wrong information or missing important points that others have learned the hard way?  That is what I was thinking the course might offer over the books and really the ONLY reason I am considering it.  I could be wrong, of course that is why I have come in here, but my inkling and with the success of the students who have done his course is that maybe he can point out the pointers I might miss?




The best way to answer that question is to examine the assumption that a $5,000 trading course contains better or more useful information than a $50 trading book. Turn it around. Could you potentially lose more by relying on a $5,000 trading course than a trading book that has been in publication for 15 or 20 years because that course might give you wrong information or miss important points?

Why do you think the course is more likely to contain better or more information than the book other than having an "inkling" that it may be so?


----------



## LinSA (2 June 2018)

Ok, how about this... I will spend the next two months learning as much as I can.  If I get into August and I am more confused than ever, I will look into the course again.  So any recommendations (and I will look at your messages above) for good non rambling books, online resources etc, I would really appreciate.

And Willy1111 I am intrigued by what you are saying so will go and have a look.

Thanks all.


----------



## tech/a (2 June 2018)

Un Holy Grails
By Radge


----------



## lenny (2 June 2018)

Hi Linsa,

What time frame do you want to trade (intraday, EOD ect)?

What style of trader do you want become (trend, breakout, momentum, rotational)?

What markets/instruments do you want to trade?


----------



## cynic (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Ok, how about this... I will spend the next two months learning as much as I can.  If I get into August and I am more confused than ever, I will look into the course again.  So any recommendations (and I will look at your messages above) for good non rambling books, online resources etc, I would really appreciate.
> 
> And Willy1111 I am intrigued by what you are saying so will go and have a look.
> 
> Thanks all.



If sometime down the track, you do end up looking into Terry's course again, or indeed any financial markets related trading course,  perhaps, before committing too much more of your hard earned, invite a few of those purportedly successful traders, to visit this forum, so that the more experienced ASF members can engage with them, and thereby, hopefully, gauge for future reference, the quality level of the educational content on offer.


----------



## investtrader (2 June 2018)

Good decision. The first thing I did when I started out trading was take a $5000.00 course on trading US stocks ... over 15 years ago. Total waste of money. There is some good advice in the posts above. I suggest you really need to read one or two genuine books on trading. I gave you two and if you really read and understood them you can be successful. To reiterate one is on trading and the other is on the psychology of trading. You could give 100 people a perfectly good system to trade and I reckon about 5 or 10 would make money at a guess.


----------



## investtrader (2 June 2018)

Actually there is a great thread on here , where you could start. Shows a professional trader's routine.
*ASX Momentum Trade Book - Part 2. *


----------



## LinSA (2 June 2018)

Hi Lenny, I have no clue of what all those terms mean.  I know I was happy with the prospect of being able to research each day for about an hour or so, and put in buy/sell orders as I saw fit.  I am not fussed with regards to American or Australian or whatever stocks.  I don't know enough about it all to know exactly what I want to trade in.  I know I was aiming for something like 1.25% per month, or about 15% per year, anything above would be awesome of course.  I am excited by the prospect of regular buying and selling, I like the sound of that more than just leaving it somewhere and waiting.

Investtrader yes I am sure you are right.  There are so many people who don't seem to get it right with stock trading, yet those who do.  I will be one who will, I am determined to!  I will certainly have a look at both of what you recommended.


----------



## Wyatt (2 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Hi Lenny, I have no clue of what all those terms mean.




Follow this trading course. https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/asx-momentum-trade-book-part-2.29971/

It cover hundreds of real trade setups over 3 years - 1200+ replies from interested followers, costs absolutely nothing (and probably save you from yourself) and has been proven to work with all the logic, nuances and pitfalls clearly explained along the way. Best of all its right here under your nose.

Just do it


----------



## tech/a (2 June 2018)

Wyatt said:


> Follow this trading course. https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/asx-momentum-trade-book-part-2.29971/
> 
> It cover hundreds of real trade setups over 3 years - 1200+ replies from interested followers, costs absolutely nothing (*and probably save you from yourself*) and has been proven to work with all the logic, nuances and pitfalls clearly explained along the way. Best of all its right here under your nose.
> 
> Just do it




Quite possibly


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

Comprehension can't be taught. One could read books and do all the courses in the world but without understanding, practical application is set to fail.


----------



## JuniorR (3 June 2018)

I've been trying to learn about the stock market myself and as a beginner in the stock market I have took great interest in watching youtube videos by Ryan Scribner.
I am yet to invest in any shares in the market yet but before I start I plan to try gather as much knowledge as possible through books and google. Basically you don't want to waste to much money on courses / training when you could be saving it towards investing.


----------



## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Comprehension can't be taught. One could read books and do all the courses in the world but without understanding, practical application is set to fail.




I would be interested to know if their are any traders on here that became a  successful trader by just reading some books ..????


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

That is a good point Triathlete.  I would love to hear about how other successful traders learnt, how long they had to study to get started, and what their average returns are.  That would be a good piece if info to know a good place to start.

Wysiwg.... I'd love you to elaborate.


----------



## tech/a (3 June 2018)

Pretty well
Known Radge for over 20 yrs and been to a few seminars but that would total about 
10 hrs 
The rest of the journey took about 10 years to understand how to trade 
The practical application 
First system was 7 years in.

Don’t trade to live 
Super and the challenge 

Super best 38%
Worst -11%

Challenge 
Mainly futures
Best $80k in a year 
Worst $12 K


----------



## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> That is a good point Triathlete.  I would love to hear about how other successful traders learnt, how long they had to study to get started, and what their average returns are.  That would be a good piece if info to know a good place to start.
> 
> Wysiwg.... I'd love you to elaborate.




I saw the video by chat with traders interviewer Aaron Fifield when he did his presentation at Noosa and the average was at least 5 years with the traders that he has interviewed...


----------



## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

JuniorR said:


> Basically you don't want to waste to much money on courses / training when you could be saving it towards investing.




This is how beginners think.....You need to ask how long will it take you to research and test the strategies to see if they work...then you will find that what you learnt in some book or you tube video only works in certain market conditions then what??? 

How many accounts will you blow up or do you just sim trade not the same when you have your own money on the line.....

Obviously if you can find someone who is successful already and has the time to teach you would be the way to go......I did see a post from someone who said it took them around 800 hours of screen time to be successful.

Myself I did courses and a few seminars over a 4 year period...all up cost around $15K....A small cost to pay for a trading business that is profitable and can trade in all market conditions....


----------



## JuniorR (3 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> This is how beginners think.....You need to ask how long will it take you to research and test the strategies to see if they work...then you will find that what you learnt in some book or you tube video only works in certain market conditions then what???
> 
> How many accounts will you blow up or do you just sim trade not the same when you have your own money on the line.....
> 
> ...




I have been following Ryan Scribner and he seems to have very educational videos. He also has a stock market investment course that I may have to look into purchasing. If I am learning a lot through following him I can only see benefits if I pay for the full course. Working a full time job makes it hard to put in many hours of studying but obviously its got to be done to be succesfull.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> This is how beginners think.....You need to ask how long will it take you to research and test the strategies to see if they work...then you will find that what you learnt in some book or you tube video only works in certain market conditions then what???
> 
> How many accounts will you blow up or do you just sim trade not the same when you have your own money on the line.....
> 
> ...




See that is what I was thinking!  I was thinking I could spend hour upon hour upon week upon month upon year weeding through book after book.  I could try out different things that I learn and lose money here there and everywhere while I stumble upon all of the bits I missed.  OR I could learn from somebody prepared to teach me the safe way to trade and give me all of those tips and strategies.

But then everytime I look on forums like this, everybody says I can learn all of this stuff for free and nobody has any good reports from doing any paid courses, well not the ones I have looked at there have been some mentions of other ones.

So I get torn.  

I am looking through any free info I can find right now, but it is all rather confusing.  

I want to be one of those few people who get this worked out.  I am determined.  And I know I will enjoy it.  I know there have been comments about how you can learn all you like but only few will actually 'get it'.  I will be one of those few.  But just working out which is the smartest first step there.


----------



## greggles (3 June 2018)

Lin, you express skepticism about learning how to trade from books and free resources but not once have you expressed any real skepticism about the $5,000 course. You keep coming back to it as though it's the holy grail or gold standard that is somehow guaranteed to "teach you the safe way to trade" and to "give [you] all of those tips and strategies" that you need to know to become a successful trader. You seem to believe this on the basis of Facebook reviews.

You say you're ready to do the hard work and spend years honing your trading skills but then you say:


LinSA said:


> I was thinking I could spend hour upon hour upon week upon month upon year weeding through book after book.  I could try out different things that I learn and lose money here there and everywhere while I stumble upon all of the bits I missed.  OR I could learn from somebody prepared to teach me the safe way to trade and give me all of those tips and strategies.




Yes, learning is hard. It takes years and requires dedication and perseverance and success is not guaranteed. No course, irrespective of how much it costs, is going to make you a profitable trader and give you everything you need. There is no easy way, but that it how you appear to be framing your options: a hard way and an easy way. There is a part of you that seems to believe that the "guru" knows all the answers, when life experience has taught you the exact opposite with property courses.


----------



## lenny (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Hi Lenny, I have no clue of what all those terms mean.  I know I was happy with the prospect of being able to research each day for about an hour or so, and put in buy/sell orders as I saw fit.  I am not fussed with regards to American or Australian or whatever stocks.  I don't know enough about it all to know exactly what I want to trade in.  I know I was aiming for something like 1.25% per month, or about 15% per year, anything above would be awesome of course.  I am excited by the prospect of regular buying and selling, I like the sound of that more than just leaving it somewhere and waiting.




Hi LinSA,
I have been a member of the chartist for around ten years which has been extremely valuable for me making it out of the beginners cycle as Nick likes to call.

Personally I wouldn't commit any money to the market until you ensure you have a strategy with a positive expectancy (edge) and are happy to commit to the strategy long term.

Even then *ALL* strategies with a positive expectancy have what is called a draw down and this is generally where the wheels fall off for about 90% of people and they go looking for a better strategy (the beginners cycle).

I would recommend finding a mentor or a profitable trader to follow who posts their trades until you have the light bulb moment of how the money is made.

Best of luck with your journey.


----------



## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

greggles said:


> Yes, learning is hard. It takes years and requires dedication and perseverance and success is not guaranteed



Agree with you on that point....



greggles said:


> You keep coming back to it as though it's the holy grail or gold standard that is *somehow guaranteed to "teach you the safe way to trade" and to "give [you] all of those tips and strategies" that you need to know to become a successful trader*.




What I found was that it was like going back to school and by learning a module at a time was able to absorb the content and learn in a very organised and systematic process, having access to a mentor while going through the course allowed me to build my confidence and ensure I was understanding the content....this is what I believe is hard with trying to teach yourself from books on your own.....but it is just my opinion.......I know this process worked for me but everyone is different...


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

Greggles.... I have displayed skepticism about both methods, self learning from books, and paying a mentor to teach me in a course.  

I have been concerned that the course won't teach me as much as I think it will and that there is something bad about it all that I am missing.

I have been concerned that self learning will be confusing, take way longer to get started (after all like most beginner traders I am very excited and can't wait to get to the point where I can start doing this!), and possibly I will miss information that will cost me a lot of money while I learn the hard way on my own.

So thus I came in here to ask for opinions on which method is wisest.

I haven't relied upon facebook reviews alone, however they are something to be relied upon more than a website review because you can check into them to see if they are real people.  Plus I have been able to contact and speak to some of them and have been told of their results in the realms of 16+%.  So that has made me think that maybe the course could set me on the beginning of the path I want in a safer manner.

In comparision, while I have been told that I can learn from books for a much cheaper price, I haven't had anybody be able to show me that I can do so in a way that gives me as little confusion as a guided course does, nor that I can avoid making costly mistakes when/if I miss important information when trying to do it on my own.

So with that in mind, while I have said I am willing to try with books first before diving into a course, I have to admit I am not convinced it is the wise choice yet.  I actually really want it to be, as it sure is cheaper!!!

Sure, I want to make this journey as least stressful, as least time confusing, as least confusing in general, and as least risky and costly, as I can.  It doesn't make me lazy, nor mean I am naively thinking that the learning won't go on and on over the years, I know and look forward to all the years of learning.  It just makes me realistic.  Why make life harder on myself than I have to?


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

one thing to bear in mind... I don't know if this makes any difference to anybodies opinion on this... I can try the course for 14 days and get a full refund if I don't think it is for me.  That allows me to start the course, plus access to the group of about 280 people who have done the course and are working with their learnings to chat to and ask all the questions I could want.  That is something to consider maybe?

As I said, I would much prefer to just learn from books, but I have my concerns stated above.


----------



## greggles (3 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> What I found was that it was like going back to school and by learning a module at a time was able to absorb the content and learn in a very organised and systematic process, having access to a mentor while going through the course allowed me to build my confidence and ensure I was understanding the content....this is what I believe is hard with trying to teach yourself from books on your own.....but it is just my opinion.......I know this process worked for me but everyone is different...




I understand that some people need a structured learning environment. It works better for many.

My issue with courses is that ultimately whoever creates the course is just collating and passing on information in a way that attempts to teach by organising that information into lessons or units. In the end you are just left with course materials that are no different in form to a book. I find it hard to justify paying $5,000 for a book, even though I know there is more that goes along with it. But ultimately you are just getting information.

Just like course materials, books are divided up into lessons or units through chapters. The purpose of a book is to inform and teach just like a course. The good authors and books are well known. It doesn't take much research to find them. Five $50 classic books is a total of $250 and you get yourself a wealth of knowledge that has stood the test of time. This book has been teaching people valuable lessons for almost 100 years and it's less than $25. To not start with books seems crazy to me. Even if you need structured learning, good books will give you a basic grounding in any field. If you are an independent learner then books and your own grey matter may be all you ever need.

The only two points I've been trying to make in this thread is to start your education with good books by renowned authors and beware of spruikers. The financial services industry is filled with snake oil salesmen and charlartans and they exist mostly in "education" and trading recommendations. I hate to see others fall prey to them.


----------



## luutzu (3 June 2018)

I can't be the only one seeing what this is, right?

It's understandable to promote your services... we all want to get the message out there, attract (paying) customers. But there is such a thing as ethics and stuff right?

It kind of send the wrong message to attract attention through deception. Unless the core of the course is to deceive your way into profit. 

And dude, I doubt Buffett would give his "blessing" to a course teaching people to trade stocks where you trade in and out, invest some 2% of your capital - that's the "risk" per trade. 

So if Buffett did write back to you, it's just him being a nice bloke.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> I can't be the only one seeing what this is, right?
> 
> It's understandable to promote your services... we all want to get the message out there, attract (paying) customers. But there is such a thing as ethics and stuff right?
> 
> ...




Luutzu, I am totally confused by what you are saying.  Are you just saying you are totally against all courses?  Or you looked into Terry's course and found something you thought I might be missing?


----------



## luutzu (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Luutzu, I am totally confused by what you are saying.  Are you just saying you are totally against all courses?  Or you looked into Terry's course and found something you thought I might be missing?




I am saying that you are promoting Terry's course, in an underhanded way.

Like I said above, I understand the need to promote and all that. Just, you know, shouldn't do it dishonestly. I mean, the members on here who's replying to you, as they do to all new investors seeking some guidance... they're honest and go out of their way to help. Not cool to play around with that.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

Sorry Luutzu, I don't know where you get that from.  You are welcome to look into me if you wish, I am happy to tell you whatever (within reason to protect my family, after all for all I know you could be a crazy person) you need to know about me in order to do so.  I have no connection and am genuinely wondering whether it is silly or clever to do his, or any other, course, or if there is another better way to learn.  Anyway, take from that what you will.  I guess I don't have a need to prove myself to you, but I wouldn't want this thread going astray with that kind of assumption.  Weren't you the person who was going to ask around to friends to see if you could find out any further information for me anyway?  What happened with that?


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

Actually here you go.  I guess there is no harm in you knowing my full name.  But here is proof that I am genuinely looking into his course.  Here he is this morning asking me if I am still considering enrolling.


----------



## minwa (3 June 2018)

Ｔｅｒｒｙ　Ｔｒａｎ　ｐｏｓｅｓ　ａｓ　ａ　ｆｕｎｄ　ｍａｎａｇｅｒ　ｔｏ　ｐｒｏｍｏｔｅ　ｈｉｓ　ｃｏｕｒｓｅ．　Ａｓｋｅｄ　ｆｏｒ　ｉｎｆｏ　ｏｎ　ｈｉｓ　ｆｕｎｄ　ｇｏｔ　ｉｇｎｏｒｅｄ　ａｓ　ｉｔ　ｄｏｅｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｅｘｉｓｔ．　


ＷＴＦ　ｈａｐｐｅｎｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｍｙ　ｆｏｎｔ．．


----------



## greggles (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Greggles.... I have displayed skepticism about both methods, self learning from books, and paying a mentor to teach me in a course.
> 
> I have been concerned that the course won't teach me as much as I think it will and that there is something bad about it all that I am missing.
> 
> ...




Lin, I recommend you start with books and treat each book like a course. Read each chapter and don't move on to the next until you are sure you understand what you just read. Do more research if you are unsure. Then move on to the next chapter and repeat.

Unlike spending $5,000 on a course that may end up being no better than a book, there is no downside to just buying the book first and saving $4,950.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

Ok, I am going to do that.  I am going to start with books, and read read.  Still will keep an open mind with the course, but will read first.  

You realise I may become a pain in the royal a coming in here to ask tons of questions though?  Haha, well I hope not.


----------



## luutzu (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Actually here you go.  I guess there is no harm in you knowing my full name.  But here is proof that I am genuinely looking into his course.  Here he is this morning asking me if I am still considering enrolling.
> View attachment 87658




If you say so. But I don't believe you.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> If you say so. But I don't believe you.



whatevs... that is totally up to you.  Moving along.


----------



## cynic (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Ok, I am going to do that.  I am going to start with books, and read read.  Still will keep an open mind with the course, but will read first.
> 
> You realise I may become a pain in the royal a coming in here to ask tons of questions though?  Haha, well I hope not.



That's wonderful!

There are a number of members of this ASF community, whom will gladly welcome and entertain your questions. 

After all, the sharing of experience derived knowledge, is a very large part of what forums are for!


----------



## peter2 (3 June 2018)

_*I'm aware that there have been posts added while I constructed this post but I'm posting it as is anyway.*_

@LinSA   Luutzu is concerned that you're an insider of Tran's, subtly advertising Tran's trading education business. ASF sees quite a bit of this and as a result, this forum is very cynical of initial posts mentioning a trading business so early in a thread.

It seems that Luutzu has looked at the website. So have I and I also see an entrepreneurial spirit that pushes the boundaries. Calling Buffett's good luck wishes an endorsement of his education business is totally misleading and ethically corrupt (imo). It seems that Tran has done a few presentations in Adelaide as his recent testamonials feature Adelaide members. The "SA" in your forum name also suggests you're from Sth Aust. 

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your initial post was an honest search for information after having been to or heard about Trans trading education business from others. 

It's very hard to get information about Tran's methodology from his website as there's so much marketing fluff.  However, watching two testamonials and analysing the spreadsheets shown in the videos, my initial thoughts are that Tran's blueprint method is robust and the members management of trade risk is surprisingly conservative. 

I've have no idea about the cost of the course, but I assume it's too much. However if they provide 12 months unlimited educational support for their members (not just a forum) the cost will be more reasonable. You may even be able to claim the cost as a tax deduction. Check with your tax accountant first.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> I would be interested to know if their are any traders on here that became a  successful trader by just reading some books ..????



I very much doubt it as from what I have heard and read, learning from doing is the way to trading success. Like an apprenticeship in a way. You are shown the theory and are shown the practical but if one does not comprehend or lacks the personality then all the teaching in the world will make no difference.


----------



## greggles (3 June 2018)

I just went to The Freedom Trader website and there is no detailed information about what you will learn in the course.

This is what it says:


----------



## willy1111 (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Ok, I am going to do that.  I am going to start with books, and read read.  Still will keep an open mind with the course, but will read first.
> 
> You realise I may become a pain in the royal a coming in here to ask tons of questions though?  Haha, well I hope not.




Lin you have opened a can of worms embarking on this journey - you probably feel like there is so much ahead of you that you need to learn - its a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack and you just want to find it as quickly as you can.  You ask here and get more opinions from everyone on where you think you should look, which just makes the haystack appear even larger than before.

This may seem simplistic, but profit from the market is a function of how often you win multiplied by how much you win when you win and how much you lose when you get it wrong.  It is not uncommon for a lot of successful traders/investors to get it wrong 50% of the time and get it right 50% of the time.  The reason they are successful and make money is because when they win, they win 2,3,4,5 times more than when they lose, this plays out over many trades/investments.

There are many different approaches to trading/investing, it is a bit like saying what job shall I do to earn an income.  You could be a cleaner, baker or candlestick maker - there are so many different jobs out there that it is possible to earn an income from, my point is, do you need to know what every job entails before you choose a job?  I would suggest not, and the same applies to the many different ways of trading/investing, all of which can be successfully applied - review enough styles to see what you like and what fits your personality - do you like discretionary, systematic, mechanical, how much time do you want to spend looking at charts each day/week/month, can you back test the approach to build confidence in the performance stats, etc.  Picture yourself doing it into the future, what does it look like.  Are you sitting in front of a computer day in day out for 2-3 hrs, are you just running your scans in less than 10 mins a day/week, put your orders in and get on with life?  Are you doing it for the excitement and challenge of trading or just the financial returns?

For me, it all fell into place with Nick Radge's teachings, so I would suggest starting with his 2 books, Unholy Grails, and Weekend Trend Trader.


----------



## tech/a (3 June 2018)

Hmm nothing there.
Surprisingly bland.
$13,000 to unlock your curiosity

Lots of sizzle no guarantee 

If this guy is a plant this really is the sort of thing that
Kills genuine educators.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

Didn't we discuss this dude before regarding other people paying for his world tour?


> It’s more than possible to support yourself and your family once you ‘get’ how investing and trading really works.



"Get it" for $5000 (hurry, offer ends soon).


----------



## greggles (3 June 2018)

tech/a said:


> Hmm nothing there.
> Surprisingly bland.
> $13,000 to unlock your curiosity



That's the "value". The Freedom Trader Blueprint is $6,990 or $4,990 if you have the coupon.



tech/a said:


> Lots of sizzle no guarantee



Agree. I think if you're going to do a course there should be detailed information about the content that course contains so you know what's being covered and in what depth. How else do you know if the course if appropriate for your needs?


----------



## peter2 (3 June 2018)

How many books do we need to read before we really get it?  The answer is, too many. 
How many courses do we need to take before we really get it? Too many and too many dollars wasted. 

I don't know of any trading educators advertising a 100% success rate for their students/members. 

I won't attempt to dissuade anyone from seeking a trader educator or mentor unless I know the business is a scam.


----------



## LinSA (3 June 2018)

peter2 said:


> _*I'm aware that there have been posts added while I constructed this post but I'm posting it as is anyway.*_
> 
> @LinSA   Luutzu is concerned that you're an insider of Tran's, subtly advertising Tran's trading education business. ASF sees quite a bit of this and as a result, this forum is very cynical of initial posts mentioning a trading business so early in a thread.
> 
> ...



Yeah I don't know what else to say to Luutzu, I showed him the proof I have, but honestly it isn't worth my energy to convince somebody who doesn't want to be.  Not my circus.  I am here to learn what I need to, no time or energy to spare on other peoples assumptions that are out of my control. Sure I guess I can see how maybe he might think that I could put all of that effort into trying to promote a course, at a real stretch as that would be quite a sneaky effort to do it that way, but I have to giggle at that when I know who I really am and my beliefs.  Really I could ask about any book or course and be considered to be doing the same, but I don't know how else to ask without asking, so there you go.  

But I want to know about any training frankly.  Whether it be via book, or a better course that somebody actually knows because they have done it, or whatever.  As I have asked multiple times for recommendations of any and all.

Yes he did come to SA and that is where I am from, I don't know how many times, but my hubby went to his seminar I think last year.  I took a while to be convinced by hubby to look at his webinar after my property course experiences, but haven't been to a live seminar.  I don't really like seminars to be honest, nor those 3 day training courses all these organisations run in Gold Coast as I find them full of motivational garb when all I want is the serious information and instructions.  Even his webinar, I wanted to slap him and say 'look just quit the usual rubbish, tell me what you can teach me, how you will teach me, and what I will get for my money'.  It seems they all go to the same marketing guru's and think we all want to be falsely motivated or something? 

I tried to contact one of the SA testimonials but no reply, but I got a response from one in Qld and another one in another state.

The cost apparently 'as a special price' but I am sure is always the same, is $4,995-.  They don't give 12mths unlimited educational support, it is 6mths in something called an inner circle.  However, they do allow you to continue to re do their training (I assume by looking at their online videos etc), and to stay in the facebook group of people who have done/are doing his course indefinitely.  You have to pay more to continue to be in that 'inner circle', but hopefully maybe you will have learnt enough in that 6mths to not have to?

Yes I thought it looked robust and like the sound of his conservative approach. Argh I keep going from 'do the course' to 'no learn from books first or only', each time any of you say anything!!!  But no, I have said I will start with books.  I will do that at least for a little while to see how it works for me.

But thank you for taking a look and giving me your opinion or information.  That is what I was hoping I could find, some honest and educated ideas and opinions, so I don't think something is great just to find it is a waste of money and time again.


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## LinSA (3 June 2018)

willy1111 said:


> Lin you have opened a can of worms embarking on this journey - you probably feel like there is so much ahead of you that you need to learn - its a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack and you just want to find it as quickly as you can.  You ask here and get more opinions from everyone on where you think you should look, which just makes the haystack appear even larger than before.
> 
> This may seem simplistic, but profit from the market is a function of how often you win multiplied by how much you win when you win and how much you lose when you get it wrong.  It is not uncommon for a lot of successful traders/investors to get it wrong 50% of the time and get it right 50% of the time.  The reason they are successful and make money is because when they win, they win 2,3,4,5 times more than when they lose, this plays out over many trades/investments.
> 
> ...




Yes you are totally right.  I knew I would get differing opinions, but this is doing my head in a bit.  I thought I would be able to decipher between those who are cynical about everything, and those who could give me their experienced information on any effective method of learning, but that has been way harder than I thought.  Now I am the subject of some underhanded promotional activity, haha.

I have a firm idea of the return I want to achieve.  I thought the return I want would realistically mean spending some time working each day.  Sure, if somebody said I can achieve the same outcome with 10mins a week as I could working 2hrs per day, I would be silly to choose the daily one!  But surely to achieve a good return surely there must be work involved.  I enjoy research.  I find it all exciting, but have NO IDEA of any of the different methods or options available to me.  I know that I would find it more boring to leave money sitting in one spot for many many months at a time, I want to do stuff!  See, I have little to no understanding of anything yet, I am a total beginner.  But will add your two books to my list for sure!

And Tech/A and everyone else, yes isn't that whole 'pay now and get it cheaper thing' so transparent?  Why can't they just say 'this is what you get' 'this is how much I am charging' and be real about the fact that you can join any time for that price, as if they would turn a student away anyway?  The fake pressure turns most of us off surely?  But I didn't really think about the fact that it isn't really spelled out as to what you are actually taught, I just took the broad statements and looked/contacted the testimonials to find out what their results were.  I guess maybe I should know more about content?


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## luutzu (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Yeah I don't know what else to say to Luutzu, I showed him the proof I have, but honestly it isn't worth my energy to convince somebody who doesn't want to be.  Not my circus.  I am here to learn what I need to, no time or energy to spare on other peoples assumptions that are out of my control. Sure I guess I can see how maybe he might think that I could put all of that effort into trying to promote a course, at a real stretch as that would be quite a sneaky effort to do it that way, but I have to giggle at that when I know who I really am and my beliefs.  Really I could ask about any book or course and be considered to be doing the same, but I don't know how else to ask without asking, so there you go.
> 
> But I want to know about any training frankly.  Whether it be via book, or a better course that somebody actually knows because they have done it, or whatever.  As I have asked multiple times for recommendations of any and all.
> 
> ...




Wait, so your hubby - that's husband right? - went to one of his seminar last year but you're still wondering if it's worth it. 

You're not on speaking term with the hubby, don't trust his words that it's a good deal and worth looking into? But strangers recommendation after they go to Terry's website would help make up your mind? 

Don't tell me your hubby did Terry's courses, made so much money the prick packed his bags and now live in freedom on some tropical island with a few babes in arms. 

Maybe I'm too cynical. For all I know you may be a single mother trying to make ends meet and Terry's course seem like a good bet.


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## LinSA (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wait, so your hubby - that's husband right? - went to one of his seminar last year but you're still wondering if it's worth it.
> 
> You're not on speaking term with the hubby, don't trust his words that it's a good deal and worth looking into? But strangers recommendation after they go to Terry's website would help make up your mind?
> 
> ...



Luutzu, you are appearing a little crazy, and insulting.  Please refrain from commenting on my post here, or any I have in the future, I don't wish to engage further with somebody of your energy.  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you have gone too far in your crazy talk.  You won't get a response from me.  Does anybody know if there is any way I can block a person from being able to interact with me in this forum?


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## cynic (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Luutzu, you are appearing a little crazy, and insulting.  Please refrain from commenting on my post here, or any I have in the future, I don't wish to engage further with somebody of your energy.  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you have gone too far in your crazy talk.  You won't get a response from me.  Does anybody know if there is any way I can block a person from being able to interact with me in this forum?



Accessible via your "Account", there exists an "people you ignore" feature that can be updated to include members, whose contributions have become too annoying, so that their postings are no longer visible.


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## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wait, so your hubby - that's husband right? - went to one of his seminar last year but you're still wondering if it's worth it.
> 
> You're not on speaking term with the hubby, don't trust his words that it's a good deal and worth looking into? But strangers recommendation after they go to Terry's website would help make up your mind?
> 
> ...



I have never known you to be so funny.


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## LinSA (3 June 2018)

I can't believe that in my first ever post on this forum I have to resort to something you have never had to resort to in 2,860 posts!  Kind of making me a bit wary of posting here to be honest.


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## Modest (3 June 2018)

I would put the 5k aside for now and not pull the trigger on any trading courses or materials until you've spent a solid 6 - 12 months devouring the freely available trading information available online (stockcharts.com is a great starting point) at least then, if you do decide to go with a course, you'll go in with a foundation you can build upon

Just my 2lots worth


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## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> Why can't they just say 'this is what you get' 'this is how much I am charging' and be real about the fact that you can join any time for that price, as if they would turn a student away anyway?



Tech/A already stated that you pay for the curiosity and are lured by the sizzle. If they told prospective ughh clients what is in the course then that would eliminate all the people from those who know at least a little bit about trading to the more experienced.


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## luutzu (3 June 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I have never known you to be so funny.




I have my moments   Not sure why people would ever blocked me though.


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## luutzu (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I can't believe that in my first ever post on this forum I have to resort to something you have never had to resort to in 2,860 posts!  Kind of making me a bit wary of posting here to be honest.





Trust me, I'm sure cynic have thought of doing it many a times. Ain't that right Cynic


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## LinSA (3 June 2018)

cynic said:


> Accessible via your "Account", there exists an "people you ignore" feature that can be updated to include members, whose contributions have become too annoying, so that their postings are no longer visible.



I have 'ignored' him/her, does that mean they can no longer see or comment on my posts, or could they still be putting crazy comments in here to mock me and I am the only one who can't see it?


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## greggles (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I guess maybe I should know more about content?




You should definitely know more about what content is being taught. How else can you know if it's what you want to learn? Even a book has a table of contents or list of chapters. To sell a course for $5,000 with no summary or outline of what is being taught is very strange.


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## cynic (3 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I have 'ignored' him/her, does that mean they can no longer see or comment on my posts, or could they still be putting crazy comments in here to mock me and I am the only one who can't see it?



My understanding, from having been ignored by others, is that I can continue to see the posts of the person who ignored me, but they no longer see my posts.

Edit: From memory, I think I did reply to a post by someone whilst on ignore. I only found out that I had actually been placed on ignore, when he disclosed that fact in one of his subsequent posts.


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## Wysiwyg (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> I have my moments   Not sure why people would ever blocked me though.



I think humour left the cynic house many years ago.  
Anyway, back to the question, are there any recommended trading courses in the world? 
https://www.asx.com.au/education/shares-course.htm


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## LinSA (3 June 2018)

cynic said:


> My understanding, from having been ignored by others, is that I can continue to see the posts of the person who ignored me, but they no longer see my posts.



I think a few might ignore my posts after the way this whole post has gone off!  

Wysiwyg yes I believe I may have stumbled upon and possibly signed up to do that one, it is a free one right?  I should get off here and actually do it!


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## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

greggles said:


> That's the "value". The Freedom Trader Blueprint is $6,990 or $4,990 if you have the coupon.
> 
> 
> *Agree. I think if you're going to do a course there should be detailed information about the content that course contains so you know what's being covered and in what depth. How else do you know if the course if appropriate for your needs?*




Details like this.......

*Analyse Financial Markets and Information *


Market participants
Market efficiency
Understanding technical analysis
Understanding fundamental analysis
Key trading strategies
Key elements of a successful trading plan
Trading software
Setting up a trading account
Using leverage to trade

*Analyse Market Trends                       *

Analysing price based data
Bar analysis
Volume analysis
How to trade using volume
Constructing bar charts
Analysing bar charts
Analysing candlestick charts
Analysing Gann swing charts
Trend analysis and trading with the trend
Techniques for identifying peaks and troughs
*
 Apply Price Analysis to Market Trends *

Understanding Dow Theory
Trading using Dow Theory
Applying Gann's Counter Trend Theory
Trading using Gann's Counter Trend Theory
Trading using Gann Swing Theory
Applying trendlines
The golden rules of trendlines
Trading using trendlines
Managing risk including your money management rules  

Back testing and techniques for determining your overall profitability
* 
Apply Price Analysis to Market Trends*
   Support and resistance

Predicting support and resistance levels

Gann's 50% rule

Trading using Gann's 50% rule

Understanding price ranges

Applying Gann's price ranges and levels

Applying Fibonacci price levels

Applying price extensions and retracements

Using price tables

Trading using price analysis

Strategies for combining price analysis with other trading techniques to effectively trade the market
 
*Apply Pattern Analysis to Market Trends *

Phases of the market
Understanding accumulation and distribution
Continuation patterns
Trading using reversal signals and patterns
Trading using volume and reversal patterns
  Candlestick patterns

Reversal patterns

Reversal signals

Projecting price ranges from continuation and reversal patterns

Strategies for combining price and pattern to increase profits
*On completion of the course you will:*

Have a workable profitable trading plan
Understand and know how to use technical and fundamental analysis
Understand how to analyse and use bar, candlestick, and Gann swing charts
Know how to analyse volume to understand the market sentiment
Understand different market phases and how to take advantage of them in your trading
Understand trends and safely use trend trading methodologies to profit from the share market
Understand a variety of entry and exit trading techniques and know which ones to use for different stocks
Predict future support and resistance price targets
Interpret continuation and reversal patterns and know the exact point when a trend will reverse
Be able to implement and act on money management rules to protect your capital
Have the tools and ratios required to determine your overall profitability
Trade over the short, medium and long term
Understand how to trade in bull and bear markets
Plus a whole lot more that will ensure you achieve your financial goals


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## cynic (3 June 2018)

luutzu said:


> Trust me, I'm sure cynic have thought of doing it many a times. Ain't that right Cynic



Yes. There have certainly been a few occasions, in years gone by,when I had to call upon my willpower reserves in order to restrain myself from doing so.


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## greggles (3 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> Details like this.......




Was that available on the website? After looking in more detail I found this:




But nothing more.


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## Triathlete (3 June 2018)

greggles said:


> Was that available on the website? After looking in more detail I found this:




This was the course I did a number of years ago.....nothing to do with what LinSa is looking into.


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## Wyatt (3 June 2018)

It seems the method is mean reversion with mostly US stocks and many tiny positions, as in 40+. The average position in the clip is only around $500. This would not work on the ASX with our brokerage rates.


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## tech/a (4 June 2018)

The problem with all beginners is

They don’t know what they need to know.
Even with a list like Triatheletes 
If your a beginner. What do you need to know?

There is very specific things you REALLY need eduction on.
Most everything else is interesting but not a requirement for profitable trading.

Some is just a complete waste of time and money


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## greggles (4 June 2018)

And how do people know if they have an aptitude or the right temperament for trading? People ask these questions when they are thinking of studying to become a doctor, lawyer or some other professional role, but not so often when it comes to trading. The spruikers want people believe that anyone can do it when what people should really be asking is: what's involved? what skills are required? what temperament is required? what mindset do I need to develop?

It's not easy and not everyone can do it. Before you part with large sums of money, do your due diligence and ask yourself honestly, is this really for me?


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## LinSA (4 June 2018)

tech/a and greggles, EXACTLY!  That is why I am so lost.  It seems there are so many different ways to do this, how do I know which way to learn.  I think this all sounds like something that would suit me well, but if I know so little how do I know?

From what I know of his particular methods, he teaches you to trade with US stocks but says you can transfer that knowledge to any of the other markets.  He teaches you how to research to make informed decisions.  Risk is limited because you put a max of 1% of your money on any one stock.  You may buy several in the same company but all different purchases.  He teaches you how to pull out when it starts to go down to limit your losses.  You will likely hold onto your purchases for 2/3 months at a time, some you may choose to hold onto longer.  You will be given the name of a broker who only charges $1 in and $1 out.  For the first 6mths (and longer if you pay more) he will show you daily what he is buying and selling to give you an idea of how he does it, he has a 22% success rate on average I believe.  He says you can work about an hour a day usually, however if nothing is going on you may work for about 10 minutes and then come back the next day.  The work is the research, and then you put in your buy/sell orders, and they happen overnight. 

That all sounded about right for what I wanted to do, and sounded like a lower risk method of trading.  I had looked at some others, but they all seemed too complicated and full of bells and whistles in their talks (and spoke of those annoying 3 day seminars which I do not want to go to!) where as I want simple straight forward information. 

But, then I came to the thought 'how do I really know, as I really know nothing of this'?  So I guess reading books might give me some light on that perhaps?  Maybe I will get to see different methods explained in books and work out whether this is the right method for me or not.


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## tech/a (4 June 2018)

22% success rate.
Meaning he has a winning trade 22% of the time?
Or he averages 22% profit on a trade?

Numbers they are important.

There is *ONE THING*

You have to know---whether you learn by books, you tube, mentor, tutorials.

*Will the way you trade be profitable over time.*

How will you know this --- being told that they return X % is *NOT* knowing.
The answer is with rigorous testing of what ever method you are thinking of using.

If YOU cant do this then *DONT TRADE ANYTHING!*


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## Country Lad (4 June 2018)

Travelling at the moment, often remotely, so have only just caught up with this thread and sorry but I can't really be helpful except to say what worked for me. 

Showing my age, I am pleased I started when none of this on-line stuff was around (was involved later on in the start-up of HotCopper, however) and even had to draw my own charts each day from the share price list in the AFR.  If I were starting off now, I would probably do it the same way as I have sufficient curiosity and learn new things quickly.

This may  not suit you at all Lin, but I learnt from a few books which were very basic in those days, trial and error of a few systems and as I improved my results, stared to increase the amounts invested.  My view at the time was that the market was always going to be there so there was no rush in becoming fully involved until I had reached a satisfactory level of confidence.  It also helped trading through a downturn in the early days which is obviously a greater learning experience than a market where all shares are rising.

What was a help for me also was a small trading group of 4 people we formed and would meet weekly to toss around ideas and prospects and to honestly exchange results and how they were achieved.


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## systematic (4 June 2018)

I've just read through the post.  I skimmed some, but tried to read every one of the OP's posts.

You've gotten some really good replies, @LinSA and I doubt I'll be adding much value; but some random thoughts after reading the thread, for what it's worth.  These thought's really aren't in a particular order.


You seem to know that you don't know.  Hey, that's a start!  Better than not knowing that you don't know.  But use that knowledge (that you don't know) to protect yourself.  Don't go throwing $5k (and more importantly, goodness knows how many $k's in trading capital) on something that is uknown (and you've already admitted that you don't know). 


Books: I hear you.  It's catch-22.  You could read every book you can get your hands on - cheap and safe.  But you need the time to do that, and you also need to have the attitude of not trying to find the holy grail...the 'answer'.  Go and read 100 somewhat well selected list of books on investing / trading with the attitude that you just want to learn something you didn't know prior to reading the book...and it'll do you good.  I started out literally as a teenager with no money simply reading every book in that section of the library.  Options, futures, general stock market, fundamental analysis, charting, day-trading, Buffet...any and all.  You sound like you don't have much time for reading...so maybe audiobooks?  If you had to start with books...I'd actually suggest you start with some interview style books (or biographies of great traders).  Why?  Because systems and methods don't matter.  Well, they do.  But the truth is...people have 'won' (made money) with all kinds of different methods of trading, in various time frames, in various markets and asset classes.  Get a basic education if you need to (free info or a book) on 'what are shares' 'what is investing' 'futures markets for dummies' etc.  Just so you know the lingo and some basics!  Read some interviews (Everyday traders by Nick Radge, the Wizards books are popular...biographies also etc) and at least get to hear about different views and approaches to markets.  It's the friction of the different views and approaches that I'd like you to get.  It's frustrating when you have those moments of, 'hey, who the heck is right? Will I ever figure this out?' but at least the win with these types of books is...you won't have wasted your time if you decide it's not for you. Reading people's life experiences and biography type stuff and trying to read between the lines will always be a benefit.  What you want to avoid (if you're saving time) is a book such as, "My Secret System for 5% monthly gains in forex" that you might find in the Kindle store, or whatever.  Go find interviews with investors / traders who really, really have made a great return...and find out _their_ favourite books (they always get asked that question), and go read them.  That would be a better start.  Also, for interviews and time saving...go listen to interview type podcasts...there's loads of them.  Listen to several, not just one.  Be careful here.  Podcasts are often used (not just in the trading world) to 'do the rounds' of promoting oneself.  Nothing wrong with that...but just keep in the back of your mind that the interviewee may be genuine, or they may not.  That's just the reality.  If you manage to do something like this you'll have heard (or read) some people's stories, learned something...maybe learned more of what you don't know (and then go find out)...and maybe even resonate with a couple of people who do offer education, or signal services or whatever, that you may want to investigate further.


You genuinely worry me with several things you repeatedly refer to.  You have said that you are happy working 'x' amount of time per day. You said you know what return you'd be happy with. And you said you think you find this stuff really exciting.  The thing with all that is: nobody cares.  I don't mean that unkindly!  I wouldn't normally say that, but I think it's helpful for you to hear it.  Some people say it like, 'the market doesn't care'.  No one cares what you'd fancy.  The slick marketers of course, sell you on what you'd fancy ('buy this horse racing system...work 1 hour a day...make 6 figures).  I'm not knocking what you're saying, just trying to get you to think.  No one cares about what you want.  The market says, 'bring your money, we'll take it' and the scammers say, 'bring your money, I'll take it'.  No one is there to make sure you get your desired returns and keep your money...but you. However, at least your comment shows that you can filter out all the stuff like day trading, that won't be possible for you anyway.  A couple times you mentioned how this is exciting for you.  On the one hand...that's not bad!  Of course you should be.  I get excited over a new research paper (sad like that), others get excited over getting in deep with company research - that's all good.  But temper that excitement.  It might just be the feeling of context I'm getting when you refer to excitement...but part of me wants to say, 'blow a hundred at the casino for your excitement' because that's not what this should be about.  Again - don't get me wrong.  I enjoy this.  I wouldn't actively trade / invest if I wasn't trying to beat the market return (some people still might, but I wouldn't).  I get that.  Just thoughts.


  The 'course' thing is really difficult.  I can remember looking into them years ago as well, but I'm no longer familiar with all the latest and greatest.  The thing I'd say is...there might be a good course for you, but at least getting familiar with different ways of trading (as above) will perhaps help steer you towards a course that's at least better fitted for where you're at.  It's hard to even recommend you stick with the people who have been around a long time and have an education (there's several Australian trading educators I can think of that have been around for years, and as far as I know they're alright)...but the problem is...how do you know?  I know of one, for example, here in Australia...who seems to have a good reputation, is an author (I've bought a book and enjoyed it for what it was), been around a long time, has done interviews that you'll find on various podcasts, and who sells stuff without a lot of slickster and hoopla (not going to go into details as I don't want to identify them here)...who I literally wouldn't trust or send someone too (even though I might have otherwise) when I saw the way their results changed due to retrofitting the past performance with new rules (and not stating such). When I asked them about it (I kept screen dumps) they gave a reason that simply didn't justify it, in my view.  A new person checking them out would simply think what they offered had a lot better past performance than what the reality was.  I've never sent a cent to this person, no sour grapes. But it makes me mad because I would never do that.  Not without at least showing both sets of results!  Anyway - without going further on that; all that to say - be careful!


One last, probably unhelpful comment to close this post out.  This is more about my philosophy of markets, I guess...you don't have to agree.  The thing is...the market return is your biggest edge.  Even for active investors, the market return is a large component of their edge.  I guess even buying a market index is active, not passive (a kind of momentum strategy).  But still, it's close to a passive investment in equities.  Anything beyond that, i.e. 'active'...you're wanting to achieve something better than that 'passive' option.  It might be better returns (that's me...and perhaps most?) but it might also be: better 'risk-adjusted returns', better consistency of returns, better income return than the market etc.  To accomplish that, you're probably going to either need sheer good luck (hey, let's not forget that some people end up winners through nothing other than dumb luck)...or an informational edge, or an analytical edge or a behavioural edge. Now, I can't speak to discretionary approaches - my mind just can't think like that.  Like tech/a describes above, I'm someone that needs to know, at least historically what I might be able to expect!  But even within the quantitative approach...I believe that the shorter-term you go (which is theoretically desirable, as greater compounding can take place)...the more you are going to need an analytical edge.  i.e. I need a better system than you to win.  This is the kind of 'war' or 'competition' type of thing.  Because 'trading' is more exciting, has greater (theoretical) potential for profit etc, it's what newbies often run into first.  But the thing is...no-one is going to give you their informational or analytical edge.  Knowledge is power.  Or if they do, it probably is going to be at a decent price.  A quick analogy:  1 person using a genuinely winning horse racing system = that person drinking champagne on their new yacht.  Thousands of people using that same horse racing system = that original person scratching under the car seat for one more dollar to buy a cask.  So...for an informational or analytical edge...you'll have to find your own.  Or (presumably) pay a lot for someone else's (assuming it's even available).  A behavioural edge is different.  I can give you a winning system that relies on a behavioural edge (e.g. buy the market index and hold) and the behavioural edge would be actually doing it!  The reality is...most won't.  (Don't read this paragraph the wrong way and conclude that I'm advocating index investing).  I could say, 'buy 50 companies that are relatively or absolutely cheap and have good accounting / fundamental qualities...and rebalance that portfolio every 6 months' and no-one would be like, 'wow - a holy grail'...i.e. there's no secret that these types of stocks have tended to beat the market over time.  But the behavioural edge is in actually sticking with that method, year in and year out.  Anyway - sorry this point might have thrown it off-topic a bit, but there's a point in there, somewhere, that I'm trying to get you to think about.

Good luck - you're getting some good responses, so hang in there.


----------



## Skate (4 June 2018)

systematic said:


> I've just read through the post.  I skimmed some, but tried to read every one of the OP's posts.
> 
> You've gotten some really good replies, @LinSA and I doubt I'll be adding much value; but some random thoughts after reading the thread, for what it's worth.  These thought's really aren't in a particular order.
> 
> ...




*'systematic' said...*
_"You've gotten some really good replies, @LinSA and *I doubt I'll be adding much value*; but some random thoughts after reading the thread, for what it's worth.  These thought's really aren't in a particular order."_

*To the contrary 'systematic'... *

*LinSA* - 'systematic' has nailed it for you....

There are two suggestions I would like to make:
1. Read 'systematic' post *more than once  *
2. Print out 'systematic' post if you have a printer - his words are priceless & succinctly written.

Skate


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## LinSA (4 June 2018)

Skate said:


> *'systematic' said...*
> _"_
> There are two suggestions I would like to make:
> 1. Read 'systematic' post *more than once  *
> ...




Ummm yeah, I had to read and read it to let it sink in, and I still don't think it has yet!


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## systematic (4 June 2018)

Skate said:


> *To the contrary 'systematic'...*




Skate, You are incredibly kind, thank you


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## Redbeard (5 June 2018)

The Stock exchange themselves runs info sessions.  Look on the ASX website for times/sessions. All(most?) are free the last time I looked. Its a good starting place before handing over cash.


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## SamuelSamuel (5 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> I want to learn how to trade stocks (or whatever it is called, I am so new I am in Kindy!).  As an absolute total beginner, I need a way to learn that isn't going to be too overwhelming.  Sure I can go on youtube, google, books, but goodness knows what mis information may end up whirling in my head and eventually whirling down my bank account.
> 
> I had hoped I could find an organisation to train me.  But I can't see any of them recommended in here.  I have been researching several, most have very dubious backgrounds and absolutely no good reviews from students who have been using their methods for a period of time, well not legitimate ones anyway.  As I previously spent a lot on property training of that kind I am more careful now.  However one that I found Terry Tran - Freedom Traders, seems to have good reviews with people earning good annual profits.  Plus I contacted some of the students and found that they have continued to go well.  This has given me hope.
> 
> However I see in this forum that nobody really recommends any of these expensive courses.  But if I don't go to one of them.... where do I learn in a safe way that doesn't chew up my learning while learning the hard way?



Go to https://scholar.google.com.au and research academic papers on financial markets. You will be better off in the long run
Regards
Samuel


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## LinSA (5 June 2018)

Thank you to all members who have put in such interesting and useful responses.

I know I expected to hear differing opinions when I posed this question, but I didn't expect the huge rollercoaster nor that I would so easily join the ride.  There were opinions of it being impossible to just learn from books, to ones that if I want to find an easier way to learn such as courses then I am just looking for an easy road :-/ .  But I guess I knew that would happen.  

I certainly didn't expect the nut bag who asked me to tell him who the course provider was, who I had no intention of disclosing until asked, and then turned around and accused me of trying to sell a course.  I reckon that one isn't just the nut, he actually planted the nut tree!

There have been really interesting points of view, it was really surprising to hear of the psychological view.  That one really intrigues me as I have a background in that area.  

I am going through and taking notes of some of the really interesting responses, the resources, courses, books all mentioned and will go through all of them to decipher what might suit.  Each and every response has been much appreciated, well maybe some of the nutty ones did my head in a bit and I might gloss over them haha, you have all given much food for thought.  I most appreciate the ones who genuinely want to help me clear my path to learning, your responses really stood out.

When the post went a bit astray here and there I considered just pulling it down, but I want to leave this up here as in amongst it all there are some good ideas and food for thought mentioned, and even I will want to go back and have a look here and there.  So thank you again, and if anybody else wants to weigh in with ideas as I see some are still coming they are most appreciated by me and I am sure anybody else who has this same question of 'how do we get started?'.


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## captain black (5 June 2018)

LinSA said:


> There have been really interesting points of view, it was really surprising to hear of the psychological view.  That one really intrigues me as I have a background in that area.




Hi @LinSA ,
The psychological aspects of trading, particularly when it comes to using a discretionary approach, are another interesting area of study.

A couple of recommendations you may wish to look at:

Brett Steenbarger:

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/

Mark Douglas:

https://www.amazon.com/Mark-Douglas/e/B001IGOXOE

At the end of the day all that matters is expectancy. Get the maths of expectancy right and everything else will fall into place.


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## tech/a (5 June 2018)

captain black said:


> At the end of the day all that matters is expectancy. Get the maths of expectancy right and everything else *will fall into place*.




*Yes initially yes*.

But you need to know how to equate what your doing into a testable methodology and you need to know what metrics are needed to equate your expectancy.
Expectancy isn't the be all and end all.
It doesn't help you when your method trades outside of the parameters seen in testing.
How do you know if your method has failed or the market has changed significantly enough to alter your expectancy.

The more you mechanise your trading the more these questions and answers mean.

You have a way to go before understanding a lot of the responses here.
Keep it as simple as you can.


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## captain black (5 June 2018)

tech/a said:


> It doesn't help you when your method trades outside of the parameters seen in testing.
> How do you know if your method has failed or the market has changed significantly enough to alter your expectancy.




Howard Bandy has written extensively on the subject of how to measure when a trading system begins to trade outside it's parameters. I currently have systems auto-trading on the ES, Bund, Kospi and Nikkei mini and continually monitor them using the techniques Bandy outlines in many of his books.

If @LinSA is looking into a quantitative style of trading then Bandy's books are a great starting point.


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## Triathlete (5 June 2018)

greggles said:


> It's not easy and not everyone can do it.




You are right it is not easy and takes time and effort to become good at anything.

 However when you say not everyone can do it....... I would like to break this up a little and say that while I believe anyone can become quite competent and profitable at being a medium to long term trader.....that then does not mean that they can simply change over and trade short term competently or profitably as it requires a different skill set and temperament / mindset.

Most people who first think of a trader think about someone who sits in front of a screen 24/7 which is not always the case....


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## greggles (5 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> However when you say not everyone can do it....... I would like to break this up a little and say that while I believe anyone can become quite competent and profitable at being a medium to long term trader.....that then does not mean that they can simply change over and trade short term competently or profitably as it requires a different skill set and temperament / mindset.




All human being are different. Some are better with their hands, others with their minds. Some are aggressive go-getters, others are quiet and reserved. Some people suffer from anxiety and high pressure jobs would reduce them to a nervous wreck. You can teach someone business theory but that won't make them a good businessman. Temperament, natural talents and inclinations and other aspects of our personalities tend to rule us more than we give them credit for. I'd be a useless accountant because I hate crunching numbers and it bores me silly.

I have no doubt that you could teach most people about trading concepts, for example technical analysis and money management, but that won't make them good or successful traders simply because they may not be suited to it, may not have the temperament for it, or may not be able to successfully apply those concepts in a practical way. Maybe they'd rather be outside ploughing a field with a tractor?


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## Triathlete (5 June 2018)

greggles said:


> All human being are different. Some are better with their hands, others with their minds. Some are aggressive go-getters, others are quiet and reserved. Some people suffer from anxiety and high pressure jobs would reduce them to a nervous wreck. You can teach someone business theory but that won't make them a good businessman. Temperament, natural talents and inclinations and other aspects of our personalities tend to rule us more than we give them credit for. I'd be a useless accountant because I hate crunching numbers and it bores me silly.
> 
> I have no doubt that you could teach most people about trading concepts, for example technical analysis and money management, but that won't make them good or successful traders simply because they may not be suited to it, may not have the temperament for it, or may not be able to successfully apply those concepts in a practical way. Maybe they'd rather be outside ploughing a field with a tractor?



Did they not prove it to an extent with the famous turtle traders???


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## greggles (5 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> Did they not prove it to an extent with the famous turtle traders???



As I understand it, thousands applied to be one of the turtles and only fourteen were accepted. There was a selection process that weeded people out. So in the end, you were left with people who had an interest in trading and who demonstrated some kind of aptitude for it. I have no doubt that you could train those people to be successful traders.


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## Triathlete (5 June 2018)

greggles said:


> As I understand it, thousands applied to be one of the turtles and only fourteen were accepted. There was a selection process that weeded people out. So in the end, you were left with people who had an interest in trading and who demonstrated some kind of aptitude for it. I have no doubt that you could train those people to be successful traders.



Well lets take myself as an example....I had always been someone who only bought shares to hold for the long term... buy and hold and not to trade.Then one day a friend of mine asked me about trading as she wanted to get into it and I had no idea so I decided to find a way to learn to see what trading was all about...saw a company on the business channel that was running courses and as an experiment threw my hard earned money into it and began the process not knowing whether I would be successful or not or whether the course would be any good and even whether I would want to be a trader.

Glad to say that someone with only a Year 10 education could be taught to trade...


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## tech/a (5 June 2018)

Thank god for that 
I repeated year 10


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## greggles (5 June 2018)

Triathlete said:


> Well lets take myself as an example....I had always been someone who only bought shares to hold for the long term... buy and hold and not to trade.Then one day a friend of mine asked me about trading as she wanted to get into it and I had no idea so I decided to find a way to learn to see what trading was all about...saw a company on the business channel that was running courses and as an experiment threw my hard earned money into it and began the process not knowing whether I would be successful or not or whether the course would be any good and even whether I would want to be a trader.
> 
> Glad to say that someone with only a Year 10 education could be taught to trade...



I'm very happy it worked out for you, but you've obviously got an interest in financial markets. I think it probably has less to do with your level of formal education than your willingness to learn and an aptitude for what trading entails - critical thinking, analysis, visual literacy, etc.


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## Triathlete (6 June 2018)

I guess we can keep going around in circles but my view still stands that while I believe you can be taught to trade medium to longer term...short term trading or trying to trade leveraged markets is a completely different beast.......

Where a beginner should start is trying to trade slower moving timeframes such as Monthly and weekly and EOD.....Most start trying to trade hourly and daily and that is there first mistake, then they may have some success and they dive straight into leveraged markets wipe themselves out never to return...

I would not even go near a leveraged market until I could trade profitable for at least 2 years....

Even one of those traders on Aaron Fifield's video said he was trained for 12 months in a hedge fund by professionals goes out on his own and wipes out 2 accounts for 70K so what chance has a beginner got if they attempt it the wrong way?


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## JuniorR (9 June 2018)

I just recently began this free online course:
https://www.asx.com.au/education/online-courses.htm

Sorry if it has already been posted, I believe it has now after reading through the thread.


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## Barn (14 August 2018)

LinSa
I am in exactly the same boat as you. I am also new (just registered on this forum after I read your post) and did have all the same concerns. I also spend too much money in the property game, but as everybody knows, the property market is not the same anymore.

I will spare you all the detail, but I am halfway through my course with Ross Cameron from Warrior Trading. I took the plunge and I must admit that I am quite impressed. This guy (obviously he is making money by selling you the course), but he takes you into his trading room and shows you how HE is doing it. I find his course easy to follow as it's all structured to make sense. He works on a syllabus that teaches you different strategies from which you can pick the one most suited to you. He himself is a momentum trader, but he teaches you different methods, even crypto's, if that is your kind of fish!

As said, I am only halfway through, but I really think that I have invested wisely this time. Look up Warrior Trading with Ross Cameron. There is a lot of his stuff on Youtube. Also reviews. 

My only problem is that he trade on the NYSE and they are active when we are sleeping. I will have to find a way to stay awake which is hard when you work 12 hour shifts like I do!

Nevertheless, check him out. 

PS. I also started by reading books, but found that I was suffering from "information overload". I have put all books away and are only concentrating on his learning material and are enjoying it immensely! 

 Here is the link:     https://www.warriortrading.com/


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## Porper (14 August 2018)

Barn said:


> LinSa
> I am in exactly the same boat as you. I am also new (just registered on this forum after I read your post) and did have all the same concerns. I also spend too much money in the property game, but as everybody knows, the property market is not the same anymore.
> 
> I will spare you all the detail, but I am halfway through my course with Ross Cameron from Warrior Trading.




"...My Challenge to take $583.15 and turn it into $1,000,000.00….Fully Transparent and Fully Verified…"

*Starting Balance on Jan 1 2017: $583.15* 

*Total Gains as of 7/31/2018:  $697,252.25*

Total 2017 Profits: $335,027.71

Total 2018 Profits: $313,213.97

Then this disclaimer...   "These results and performances are *NOT TYPICAL*, and you should not expect to achieve the same or similar results or performance. " haha

Hilarious.  It's over $6000 U.S for the course. Can we ask Barn that you provide the course for free as you must all be multi-billionaires making that much money per year.

Scam and barge pole come to mind.


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## greggles (14 August 2018)

Barn said:


> I will spare you all the detail, but I am halfway through my course with Ross Cameron from Warrior Trading. I took the plunge and I must admit that I am quite impressed. This guy (obviously he is making money by selling you the course), but he takes you into his trading room and shows you how HE is doing it.




Well, it didn't take long to find plenty of others who disagree with your suspiciously positive review:

https://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/warrior-trading/
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/226692-anyone-experienced-warrior-trading-chatroom.html
https://www.valforex.com/2017/09/warrior-trading-review-best-trading-school-or-scam.html

They have a strict no refund policy which means you have no chance of getting your money back if you are dissatisfied with the course.


> All payments made to Warrior Trading in connection with any product purchased or account or service, and any renewal thereof, are non-refundable; and Warrior Trading does not offer, and is not required to provide, any refunds or credits for any reason, including, without limitation, satisfaction or your failure to cancel your account or service prior to its automatic renewal. There is no circumstance in which you will be entitled to, or Warrior Trading is required to provide, a refund or credit for any reason, including, without limitation, satisfaction or your failure to cancel your account or service prior to its automatic renewal.




As I have stated numerous times in this thread previously, I recommend avoiding  so-called "gurus" who promise to teach you how to become a profitable trader for thousands of dollars. These people are making money from selling courses, not from trading. Buy a couple of books by real pros such as Alexander Elder or Mark Douglas for $40 or $50 each and see if trading is for you. Don't spend thousands of dollars under any circumstances.


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## CanOz (14 August 2018)

Everyone must find thier own way....


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## Wysiwyg (15 August 2018)

Ha. I went to the webpage for that course and there were these live notifications coming across of people who have purchased a course or subscription right now. Either people are stupid and the &%^ are making truck loads of money or they are fraudulent automated notifications.


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## Gringotts Bank (15 August 2018)

CanOz said:


> Everyone must find thier own way....




This vibe... this vibe you're doing right now has surrender and immediacy -- *You can trade from that place.*   Just stay loose and feel your way.  Don't think.  Move swiftly without hurrying, and don't make the slightest effort.  Allow that vibe to run on.

And please don't reply.  I don't want a reply.  Just use what you have right now.


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## Triple B (30 September 2018)

No Need to Pay $$
I would start with the ASX stockmarket education course
Then some basic fundamental analysis . plenty online. Decide if you want to invest or trade.
Investing probably requires better uderstanding of fundamentals, the shorter the timeframe the more technical analysis will be used.
Then look at some basic technical analysis. 
I use a method called Wyckoff Method. So named after Richard wyckoff. I believe there is a Wyckoff institute that has been around for nearly 100 years. 
Here is a good intro
https://stockcharts.com/school/doku.php?id=chart_school:market_analysis:the_wyckoff_method

on the same site 
Go to April  2015 to start at the beginning .Some good basic info on how to draw trend lines reverse trendlines support and resistance .
https://stockcharts.com/articles/wyckoff/archives.html
Look up position sizing and risk management.
Paper trade on asx game , trade direct 365 Demo acc. with your new skillz
If you want to pay for a real course SMB capital are a real prop trading firm who also does education.
look em up on youtube.
Good luck .


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## luutzu (30 September 2018)

Triple B said:


> No Need to Pay $$
> I would start with the ASX stockmarket education course
> Then some basic fundamental analysis . plenty online. Decide if you want to invest or trade.
> Investing probably requires better uderstanding of fundamentals, the shorter the timeframe the more technical analysis will be used.
> ...





It's not really true that investing require a longer time frame while trading is for the quick buck. 

Both approach ought to decided and act upon when profit is (believed to be) there for the taking. 

That is, an investor (as opposed to a trader) should only invest when the profit is already there to be had. Just that often, it takes the market a few weeks or a few months or a couple of years... to see and recognise what was seen and slap themselves for their mistake. 

So in that sense, people might see that investing is putting money into a stock/business and over time it'll grow to make you money. It might, it might not. Over time things might do well, or deteriorate and get worst. 

Don't mistake the long-time investing for the long-term.


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## Triple B (30 September 2018)

luutzu said:


> It's not really true that investing require a longer time frame while trading is for the quick buck.
> 
> Both approach ought to decided and act upon when profit is (believed to be) there for the taking.
> 
> ...



The way I see it is :
The bias towards which type of analysis to use shifts as the expected holding time shifts.
If F/A is used and the trade lasts a few weeks when months to years was expected then great . you timed it perfectly .
If you used T/A and the trade lasted a year when you expected to hold a few weeks then thats good to.
Not much point using an hourly chart for an invesment you see lasting months to years.
Nor  is there much point pouring over P/E ratios , competitor prices , forward earnings etc for a breakout  trade that should last a day or 2.  I am talking about your expected holding time not the outlier.


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## luutzu (30 September 2018)

Triple B said:


> The way I see it is :
> The bias towards which type of analysis to use shifts as the expected holding time shifts.
> If F/A is used and the trade lasts a few weeks when months to years was expected then great . you timed it perfectly .
> If you used T/A and the trade lasted a year when you expected to hold a few weeks then thats good to.
> ...




You're right that there's no use looking at "fundamental" factors if the trade is based on market price momentum, expect to ride the gain and get out in a couple days etc.

I don't know how to reliably predict market movement with any accuracy so no comments. 

Was referring to, what I think anyway, might be a misconception in long-term investing. That is, when people talk of longterm investing. i.e. "proper" investing... they tend to think that profit is only possible in it over the, ahem, long time. 

Tryin to point out that while that might very well be the case when you mark your profit to the market price... fundamentally, profit should already be made, at least in your head, the moment you made a decision to buy or to sell. 

The time it take for the market to agree with you, or laugh at you, is just that, time. 

There are exception of course. Namely, you buy in with profit "clearly evident" then over time the business deteriorate so you lose. But that's after the fact.

Or you buy at the wrong (high) price but over time the business hit some unexpected  miracle and it gain... that's just good luck, not long term investing.


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## James3010 (22 September 2019)

LinSA said:


> Thank you to all members who have put in such interesting and useful responses.
> 
> I know I expected to hear differing opinions when I posed this question, but I didn't expect the huge rollercoaster nor that I would so easily join the ride.  There were opinions of it being impossible to just learn from books, to ones that if I want to find an easier way to learn such as courses then I am just looking for an easy road :-/ .  But I guess I knew that would happen.
> 
> ...




Which course did you ending up with?


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## snilson (14 October 2019)

u can get information on web or by the market..


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## tinhat (15 October 2019)

snilson said:


> u can get information on web or by the market..



Hi sn, can you please elaborate more on how you get information by the market?


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## Josephds1 (16 October 2019)

LinSA said:


> I want to learn how to trade stocks (or whatever it is called, I am so new I am in Kindy!).  As an absolute total beginner, I need a way to learn that isn't going to be too overwhelming.  Sure I can go on youtube, google, books, but goodness knows what mis information may end up whirling in my head and eventually whirling down my bank account.
> 
> I had hoped I could find an organisation to train me.  But I can't see any of them recommended in here.  I have been researching several, most have very dubious backgrounds and absolutely no good reviews from students who have been using their methods for a period of time, well not legitimate ones anyway.  As I previously spent a lot on property training of that kind I am more careful now.  However one that I found Terry Tran - Freedom Traders, seems to have good reviews with people earning good annual profits.  Plus I contacted some of the students and found that they have continued to go well.  This has given me hope.
> 
> However I see in this forum that nobody really recommends any of these expensive courses.  But if I don't go to one of them.... where do I learn in a safe way that doesn't chew up my learning while learning the hard way?




Hello LinSa, I am new here and have just seen your post. How far have you come since posting this please? Thanks.


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## NoFOMO (24 April 2020)

Most of what you need to be trade well you can get for FREE


All you only need a Toyota, like this fabulous forums *Trading Fundamentals - Skate's Beginners Version *



Babypips gives you a good basic technical understanding


Don’t trade CFDs, trade US options


If you want a great Macro view of the world listen to religiously. Macrovoices


If you want to keep up with the worlds Macro info Tradingeconomics


If you want a great Bloomberg like platform Koyfin data


If you want a great all-round technical setup platform Tradingview


If you want to learn about how the market works read the front pages of Squeezemetrics

This site is closed for new premium subscriptions because they actually tell you where the markets are going with some accuracy.

If you want a site that you can still get some market direction using the same market analysis for a very small fee  Spotgamma  


If you want to learn to trade the Long Short Hedge fund way Macrovoices  offers a great free course.


Saxo offer the best platform to Aussies, white label and has many more tradable instruments than the American platforms. Also has CFDs that aren’t ridiculously leveraged so you can use them reasonably safely in a LongShort trading strategy


A further warning

Need to voice about Anton Kreil


By reading all the posts around the web I can see few who comment have ever done a Anton Kreil ITPM course


And his defenders here are obviously Anton trolls, or Anton himself. He’s a walking self-promoter who bags everyone else to make you feel your going to miss out, the best FOMO in the learner traders on the Web.  Don’t waste your money.


I’m happy to discuss AntonK course material, just send me an PM.


Anton is overpriced and full of himself and uses your fear and previous trading losses to sell to you.


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## Soren (27 February 2021)

LinSA said:


> I want to learn how to trade stocks (or whatever it is called, I am so new I am in Kindy!).  As an absolute total beginner, I need a way to learn that isn't going to be too overwhelming.  Sure I can go on youtube, google, books, but goodness knows what mis information may end up whirling in my head and eventually whirling down my bank account.
> 
> I had hoped I could find an organisation to train me.  But I can't see any of them recommended in here.  I have been researching several, most have very dubious backgrounds and absolutely no good reviews from students who have been using their methods for a period of time, well not legitimate ones anyway.  As I previously spent a lot on property training of that kind I am more careful now.  However one that I found Terry Tran - Freedom Traders, seems to have good reviews with people earning good annual profits.  Plus I contacted some of the students and found that they have continued to go well.  This has given me hope.
> 
> However I see in this forum that nobody really recommends any of these expensive courses.  But if I don't go to one of them.... where do I learn in a safe way that doesn't chew up my learning while learning the hard way?




Hi LinSA
my recommendation would be to start a savings account and save a fixed amount each week into it.
Only add money to this savings account that you can afford loosing.
Once you've saved a minimum of $1,000 create a stock trading account.
All major banks have a platform where you can trade stock, you just need to create the account.
Keep saving to your Stock savings account and keep buying each time you reach $1,000.
As you're new I would invest in bigger stocks like Coles, Flight Center, Quantas, CSL etc.
Later when you've build your portfolio you can start looking at IPO, growth shares, etc.
The key part here is keep the stock you've invested in don't sell them off, your portfolio will go up and down.
Keep saving into your stock savings account and keep buying in different areas, mining, banks, tech, food....
If you keep doing this you will year in year out over the long run learn a lot and grow you portfolio.
Soren


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## willoneau (27 February 2021)

If interested in learning system trading , read Skates free ebook then his thread.
If interested in discretionary, read Peter2 and Tech/a threads.
There are also fundamental threads that you can read.
But first do research on all three to see were you would start.


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## Value Collector (28 February 2021)

LinSA said:


> From what I have been told, and what little I know, I can put orders to purchase and go to bed with US stocks.  Can't with Australian, and there is apparently more opportunity over there?  That is all I know though.



That's a weird thing to say, what does that even mean?


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