# Are traders a waste of space?



## schnootle (21 November 2009)

After just reading an article on a company called "Tibra", the long time geek in me thought cool, then i found myself thinking what waste of talent and resources on something that doesn't really do anything.

http://www.tibra.com/

They have all the try hard geeky coolness of a technological startup, with none of the product.

The world obviously needs "investors" but other than providing market liquidity do traders provide the economy and society with anything useful for their efforts? Are they a sap on society?

How as a society can we funnel the energy of these sort of companies into solving the worlds real problems?


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## BradK (21 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> into solving the worlds real problems?




Good point! Where are the companies honest enough and not greedy enough not to try to fix the mess THEY created? 

Im p!ssed, so divide what I say by 90

Brad


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## So_Cynical (21 November 2009)

Its not just traders, there's so many professions that do nothing for society and the world in general, half the people that wear a suit and tie are basically worthless to society.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (22 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> The world obviously needs "investors" but other than providing market liquidity do traders provide the economy and society with anything useful for their efforts? Are they a sap on society?
> 
> How as a society can we funnel the energy of these sort of companies into solving the worlds real problems?



Philanthropy. Flow on economic effects.


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## condog (22 November 2009)

I hear your point of view....its a tad extreme

Traders themselves provide a massive amount of emloyment, so I guess you need to question whether contributing to local employment is a contribution to society...

Personally I think its just like spending money at your local shops, your in a small way keeping a roof over someone elses head....

On face value "Ratings agencies do nothing" because they got it so wrong. But if your a banker and know how to bank, a ratings agency is your best and sometimes only means of getting a more informed, educated guess / opinion of the quality of a structured or diverse assett...

Might be worth a lot more thought....


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## wayneL (22 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> After just reading an article on a company called "Tibra", the long time geek in me thought cool, then i found myself thinking what waste of talent and resources on something that doesn't really do anything.
> 
> http://www.tibra.com/
> 
> ...



I was just thinking that someone hadn't come up with argument for a while.

It's a boring one so won't bother to much but let's put it this way:

Society (via government) has done nothing but leech of me ever since I started working. Because of my circumstances, I don't receive value for money. When I needed support, they told me to go jump. 

I support my family, I pay my taxes, I buy stuff, I pay for services, eat at restaurants, contribute to the economy in a million ways.

Aside from that, I have no desire to contribute to society... unless by volunteering. My choice. End of story.

Anybody trying to lay guilt trips on traders can just naff right off.


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## nunthewiser (22 November 2009)

wayneL said:


> I support my family, I pay my taxes, I buy stuff, I pay for services, eat at restaurants, contribute to the economy in a million ways.
> 
> Aside from that, I have no desire to contribute to society... unless by volunteering. My choice. End of story.
> 
> Anybody trying to lay guilt trips on traders can just naff right off.




Amen.


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## matty2.0 (22 November 2009)

Traders and investors maintain the price function of the market economy, among other things (as you've mentioned; liquidity is another function). 
By investing and engaging in arbitrage, they set prices so that the value of securities, commodities and derivatives can be determined. 

It's sort of like maintaining the traffic lights at busy highways - people need to know the right signals so they can move along efficiently and with certainty. From oil prices, commodities, interest rates and securities. 

The market is quite efficient, and this efficiency is needed. If there weren't any 'market' (i.e. traders, investors) then we wouldn't have anyone setting prices, and thus we wouldn't have 'a market'. 

This is important for things such as commodities - farmers and investors need to be able to hedge properly so they need a proper market, or with IPOs - issuers need a market to come to fair value (if not premium value) so that they can raise capital and grow their businesses.

Countries that have highly developed capital and financial markets tend to enable investment flows to happen more efficiently, and thus tend to grow more than countries that don't have developed institutional mechanisms for free flowing financial capital.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 November 2009)

Agree with all the foregoing.

It is what makes Anarchism such an attractive polity.

gg


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## Timmy (22 November 2009)

I like to know what industry/employment those accusing traders of being a waste of space are in.


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## schnootle (22 November 2009)

Timmy said:


> I like to know what industry/employment those accusing traders of being a waste of space are in.




Sorry if i came across rudely. I never intended to accuse anyone of anything, i was simply questioning  whether having ones "best and brightest" aspiring to work for a company like Tibra is a good thing. Whether we would be better off trying to set up systems where people were attracted to industries with direct benefits to the development of their countries.

(I may have been a bit sensationalist earlier, it got attention though)


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## Timmy (22 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> Sorry if i came across rudely.




Schnootle, it is probably I who came across rudely - sorry.  Mine was a brief post and probably was more abrupt than I intended. 
You are certainly not the first to bring this topic up, it generates some interesting discussion.


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## wayneL (22 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> Sorry if i came across rudely. I never intended to accuse anyone of anything, i was simply questioning  whether having ones "best and brightest" aspiring to work for a company like Tibra is a good thing. Whether we would be better off trying to set up systems where people were attracted to industries with direct benefits to the development of their countries.
> 
> (I may have been a bit sensationalist earlier, it got attention though)




The Australian Government wrecked my business via *unfair import duties. Never again will I think in terms of developing a country... because the country cares not about me.

*Import duty was removed on completed furniture, but was kept high on the raw materials we needed to manufacture in Australia.


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## nulla nulla (22 November 2009)

So_Cynical said:


> Its not just traders, there's so many professions that do nothing for society and the world in general, half the people that wear a suit and tie are basically worthless to society.




Why is it that to be of some "worth to society" you have to be a god botherer or volunteer for the homeless kittens society or run a youth group that later on turns out to be a front for organised paedophiles? 
There are so many organisations out there that claim to be of immense "benefit to society" that turn out to be self serving and divisive to society. 

What has "wearing a suit and tie" and being of "benefit to society" got to do with whether or not "traders are a waste of space"?


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## matty2.0 (22 November 2009)

There are many fields in life where the payout can be lucrative, however the social benefits seem limited. 

For example, professional athletes, actors and entertainers. The social benefits of watching sports or film are limited, however what is important in a monetary and economic sense, is that people demand these services and enjoy the benefits received from it (i.e entertainment), and so they are willing to pay the high salaries that the elite in this industry command. The same can be said for resources companies that help with providing the inputs for infrastructure projects however harm the environment in the process of doing so, or non-necessity goods like adult services, luxury goods, high fashion, as well as recreational goods (e.g. tobacco/smoking, horse racing/Melbourne Cup). 

As long as there is demand, there is a market. Economics and markets are not about morals or a social conscience, it just is in an economic sense. But I would argue that traders and investors provide more of a social service to society than say tobacco companies, fashion, or professional athletes.


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## gooner (22 November 2009)

I think you can draw a distinction between types of trading.

OTC markets where the banks effectively bring buyers and sellers together, provide risk transfer, a good credit rating to deal with (albeit recent history does not support this totally), create liquidity etc is an example of a market where you can say those traders are providing a very useful function for the overall economy and provide reasonable added value.

As a theoretical example, if you look at me at home, trading on my PC, then the only value added is really some marginal liquidity. So yes, it really is a waste of space. Except it can help me feed my family and earn an income. Yes I can spend this money and contribute to the economy but this is really me using resources rather than contributing any. You can draw an analogy with retired people. We can't all be traders and we can't all be retired because there would be no one to produce our food, fill our teeth or teach our kids.  If you were to get a list of occupations and order it by those you would get rid of first as not contributing much, then people trading at home would be close to top of the list IMO.

The likes of Tibra, Optiver, Sasquahar (sp?) fit somewhere between these two extremes in my view. They take lots of very smart graduates who want to earn lots of money. But wouldn't it be better if they worked in medical research or something else?

Given I am unemployed, this opinion may seem a tad harsh, but I would have the same opinion if I was a teacher, a doctor etc.  I would quite happily work for one of these trading houses as I need to support my family but would not kid myself that the service provided is a particularly socially useful one.


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## nomore4s (22 November 2009)

I would've of thought just being employed or creating an income is a benefit to the country and society no matter what you are doing.

Traders still pay taxes & spend their money, I personally don't see any difference between a share trader and any other sort of traders- they are all people trying to make a living.

If you tried to ban trading or bring in some sort of regulations restricting traders I think financial markets might collapse.


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## motorway (22 November 2009)

What works is diversity and Freedom

We all can't be anything
All teachers
All Doctors
ALL Volunteers
All Sports Stars etc

Some can be those things ONLY because Others Are other things

Ecosystems are complex
and thrive on Diversity

*Why did God make the Fly ...*

That is the sort of Question being asked
and always gets asked

BEWARE the unintended Consequences of Good Intentions and Planned Improvement.

Traders are at least as useful as the Fly

In the relative modern world
compare the fortunes

Of first Holland  <--1688--> England then the USA
And some where over that same Time line  like eg  Spain

The differences are because of relative--->

Markets, Innovation and freedom .. Plenty of Flies & Traders
Financial innovation and  risk taking

A cascade of evolving niches--> Prosperity


There are NOT enough TRADERS
and more should be TRADEABLE on liquid markets
I see calls for employment contracts to be traded for example..


Motorway


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## gooner (22 November 2009)

nomore4s said:


> I would've of thought just being employed or creating an income is a benefit to the country and society no matter what you are doing.
> 
> Traders still pay taxes & spend their money, I personally don't see any difference between a share trader and any other sort of traders- they are all people trying to make a living.
> 
> If you tried to ban trading or bring in some sort of regulations restricting traders I think financial markets might collapse.




Drug dealing, arms trading, David Tweed's share trading,  offers, Peter Foster's slimming tea, trading property debenture "investments",

Sure drug dealing is generally illegal (except alcohol of course), but are all of the above really creating a "benefit to the country and society"


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## prawn_86 (22 November 2009)

gooner said:


> Drug dealing, arms trading, David Tweed's share trading,  offers, Peter Foster's slimming tea, trading property debenture "investments",
> 
> Sure drug dealing is generally illegal (except alcohol of course), but are all of the above really creating a "benefit to the country and society"




Anything that generates a legal profit must pay taxes so therefore contributes to society. Even tobacco companies in Aus contribute >$10b pa in taxes.

Illegal profits like drug dealing make their way back into the system as the dealers etc have to spend the money pretty much straight away, as it cant be saved or put into a bank account. Hence they blow it on big TVs, stereos etc


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## Mr J (22 November 2009)

gooner said:


> Drug dealing, arms trading, David Tweed's share trading,  offers, Peter Foster's slimming tea, trading property debenture "investments",
> 
> Sure drug dealing is generally illegal (except alcohol of course), but are all of the above really creating a "benefit to the country and society"




Our economy is a service-based economy. Most of these are things we could do ourselves, but these days we choose to pay someone else to do it. In that respect, trading is no different - liquidity for a fee. If trading is not seen as beneficial, then consistency would require the same opinion of most jobs. In this perspective, the only jobs that really provide a service are the ones we can't learn to do ourselves (ones that require deep and focused education). 

Another point of view is that trading has been around since early society, so it is obviously a necessary service. Very few jobs can claim to be have played as significant a role in society.

Wayne's post is spot on.


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## Wysiwyg (22 November 2009)

Mr J said:


> Another point of view is that trading has been around since early society, so it is obviously a necessary service. Very few jobs can claim to be have played as significant a role in society.



Right there answers the question. Case dismissed.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (22 November 2009)

gooner said:


> Drug dealing, arms trading, David Tweed's share trading,  offers, Peter Foster's slimming tea, trading property debenture "investments",
> 
> Sure drug dealing is generally illegal (except alcohol of course), but are all of the above really creating a "benefit to the country and society"



Let's look at the chemicals and additives etc that are in foods and cosmetics etc that so called valuable professions peddle.


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## sinner (22 November 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> Right there answers the question. Case dismissed.




I agree.

I feel like trading is the same as any other business. In the fundamental abstract sense what is the difference between a new farmer and a new trader: you undertake some of your own capital to make potential profit based on supply and demand. 

There is no guarantee that your milk will be bought or your cows won't get eaten by wolves or whatever just the same as there is no guarantee that some investment bank won't move in to sell their position of whatever you just bought.

Farmers take out leverage on their capital to buy the farm, and until some profit is generated the issuer of the debt holds the majority of the position. 

At the end of the day if all goes well and you avoid every roadblock you return some of the capital to the issuer of the debt, some goes to your landlord, some goes on food & clothes, etc. This is the economic result of your productivity, be that milking and slaughtering cows or sitting hunched over a screen analysing charts and news feeds. 

Some small portion remains in your pocket, it goes to the bank account usually and this savings in the bank in turn allows the next farmer with $15,000 to buy a $400,000 farm or the next trader to put down $1000 on the next $40,000 trade he wants to make.

Economic productivity is economic productivity. Think of how many helpdesk/admin/HR/IT staff work at Comsec or Bell Direct? Think government business taxes, council land taxes, think super contributions, etc! This is provided by the clients of these companies i.e.: traders!


That is the way it is currently, be that good or bad.  Maybe one day we will all learn to share and then traders will no longer serve the function they do now.


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## cutz (22 November 2009)

schnootle said:


> After just reading an article on a company called "Tibra", the long time geek in me thought cool, then i found myself thinking what waste of talent and resources on something that doesn't really do anything.




Dunno about that,

I don't know much about what they do but it appears that they may be market makers, a valuable link in the derivatives chain.

Often here when buying/selling options most of the quotes sitting in the order book are placed by market makers, imagine trying to get another retail trader to take the other side.

Actually the oz scene seems to have a lack of competition when it comes to these sort of things.


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## nulla nulla (22 November 2009)

cutz said:


> Dunno about that,
> 
> I don't know much about what they do but it appears that they may be market makers, a valuable link in the derivatives chain.
> 
> ...




I find their claims contradictory. If you are following any of the shares involved and you look at the depth screens, you will see the irregular "buys" or "asks" already in the queues. I fail to see how this is supposed to be their ability to react to "trends" in milliseconds, they are already in the queue?


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## beerwm (22 November 2009)

condog said:


> I hear your point of view....its a tad extreme
> 
> Traders themselves provide a massive amount of emloyment, so I guess you need to question whether contributing to local employment is a contribution to society...




This is such a baseless argument, might aswell pay people to dig holes in outback australia.... cause they will in turn buy food,clothes,shelter and provide employment

- the money recieved from trading is taken from elsewhere, so its a zero-sum equation.

providing liquidity... sure. but at what price?
- a successful trader is being overpaid for providing liquidity, a poor trader is being underpaid [due to their earnings $$$]

: its a service that needs to be there, but not an equitable one

but this is a trading forum, so i doubt you'll get many unbias answers to this question.


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## gooner (22 November 2009)

beerwm said:


> This is such a baseless argument, might aswell pay people to dig wholes in outback australia.... cause they will in turn buy food,clothes,shelter and provide employment
> 
> - the money recieved from trading is taken from elsewhere, so its a zero-sum equation.
> 
> ...




BAM. A total hole blown through the defence. Very well put, Beerwm. Love the digging holes analogy.


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## wayneL (23 November 2009)

beerwm said:


> This is such a baseless argument, might aswell pay people to dig holes in outback australia....



Isn't that pretty much the basis of Australia's wealth right now?


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## theasxgorilla (23 November 2009)

beerwm said:


> - the money recieved from trading is taken from elsewhere, so its a zero-sum equation.




The first part of that statement might be right, but it is no zero-sum game.  The money might have come from someone who borrowed it and then defaulted on their loan.


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## Trembling Hand (23 November 2009)

Of course we are a waste of space if you compare the direct outcome of our "product" to a surgeon or one of the few good teachers but isn't 90% of positions in a services industry the same. Just a heap of middle men passing a heap of electrons from one position to another and taking a bit of the pie for payment?

Would everyone be happier if the wheat farmer made the loaf of bread from his wheat and sold it to the customer without any middlemen milling, transporting, packing, storing, distributing, baking, and then retailing. And the gold prospector refining his meager findings then producing 2 wedding rings each year then finding some soon to be married couples to sell to?

Yes that's the "fair" way to run a society/economy no middle men. I even think I remember what its called. Bronze Age!! lack of widespread specialisation.

Always refreshing to see in action the lack of Australian entrepreneurial spirit. Anyone who has been in business will know that middlemen are an important part of our efficient low cost economy.




But away from the specialisation of our current economy traders greatest use may well be a constant reminder of what freedoms and rewards, both in monetary and time freedom, are available to every man & women if they have the guts and determination to release themselves from the slavery and false sense of security of next weeks paycheck from the boss. Traders, like a sports person, artist or entertainer, if you become an expert in a specialisation that has an uncertain outcome you will be greatly rewarded. To the tune of 100s to 1000s time greater than the gutless wage slave that trades the certainty of next weeks paycheck in a perverse delay of the almost certain redundancy and lack of skill to create income without kissing someones ar$e.

Well maybe not a helpful reminder but rather a constant irratant.


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## wayneL (23 November 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Of course we are a...
> 
> ....but rather a constant irratant.



Great post TH, best one yet.


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## Bushman (23 November 2009)

If you cannot beat the system, profit from the system.


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## Ageo (23 November 2009)

Some jobs might be useless but nothing will ever be as useless then forced government.

Talk about having a dud effect on our economy.

You see even a bum trader who makes money from nothing will still spend it into our economy which doesnt change the overall money supply so in effect all we are doing is exchanging money from 1 hand to another. But when you "create" money for no reason then the game changes.

The only people that can create money is government and people who control them (not civilians). To me they are the biggest waste of space.


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## beerwm (23 November 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> The first part of that statement might be right, but it is no zero-sum game.  The money might have come from someone who borrowed it and then defaulted on their loan.




...then doesnt the bank lose money? and pay less dividends to their shareholders/ or recieve a bailout from the population?


also, i guess it must be said - its also a distribution of wealth from the inable to the able, [unwise to the wise?]

-kinda like a casino


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## shortlist (23 November 2009)

wayneL said:


> I was just thinking that someone hadn't come up with argument for a while.
> 
> It's a boring one so won't bother to much but let's put it this way:
> 
> ...




Two gold stars to WayneL for this post - totally agree.


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## motorway (23 November 2009)

beerwm said:


> ...then doesnt the bank lose money? and pay less dividends to their shareholders/ or recieve a bailout from the population?
> 
> 
> also, i guess it must be said - its also a distribution of wealth from the inable to the able, [unwise to the wise?]
> ...




It can only be ZERO SUM IF markets are homogeneous ..  

Long short POSITIONS , HEDGING , But most of all Very different TIME HORIZONS

Trader A buys on  a dip  off TRADER B who held for 6 weeks and is taking PROFITS.. HE then sells after holding for two days to someone Who is going short on a  small BULGE.. Covers at the low for the DAY where TRADER A re-enters,...

WHAT IS IT ALL THESE TRADERS / INVESTORS want ?  *LIQUIDITY.*

World needs more traders and more things traded.

MORE not LESS Liquidity

And That is a WIN WIN for Everybody

Leads to the cascade of PROSPERITY viz my Earlier post..


Motorway


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## Largesse (23 November 2009)

motorway said:


> It can only be ZERO SUM IF markets are homogeneous ..
> 
> Long short POSITIONS , HEDGING , But most of all Very different TIME HORIZONS
> 
> ...





People should really listen to this Motorway fellow A LOT more.
He is bang on the money with every post.

Can the moderators give this guy a special VIP poster status or something that distinguishes him from the rest of the pack?


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## condog (24 November 2009)

Have you ever seen a bloke banging his head on a brick wall?????

Hmmm something in here seems familiar....


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## Aussiest (24 November 2009)

condog said:


> Traders themselves provide a massive amount of emloyment




I agree with condog, so_cynical and a myriad of other posts here.

I pay tax, therefore i contribute to society. Trading also makes me happy (for the most part), so i am kinder to people. It also frees me up to do what i really want instead of remaining a bitter slave to somebody else's idea.


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## Aussiest (24 November 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> There are so many organisations out there that claim to be of immense "benefit to society" that turn out to be self serving and divisive to society.




I learned this when i worked in the mailing industry and saw how much those well known 'charities' (and we all know who they are) spent on mailing and promotion - millions. Not to mention the wages of all concerned. It really did disgust me, and in a way i felt like those thin malnutrioned people we see on TV were used as tools so we (fat westerners) could exploit even more from them.


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## Aussiest (24 November 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> What has "wearing a suit and tie" and being of "benefit to society" got to do with whether or not "traders are a waste of space"?




Do you know how many of those are miserable? They're the real slaves, chasing dreams manufactured by others in order to 'achieve'... What is real achievement anyway?


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## pilots (24 November 2009)

Aussiest said:


> I learned this when i worked in the mailing industry and saw how much those well known 'charities' (and we all know who they are) spent on mailing and promotion - millions. Not to mention the wages of all concerned. It really did disgust me, and in a way i felt like those thin malnutrioned people we see on TV were used as tools so we (fat westerners) could exploit even more from them.




My wife was giving $5.00 each month to the save the bears lot, we was getting about $10.00 each month in junk mail from them, they get nothing now.


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## Aussiest (24 November 2009)

pilots said:


> My wife was giving $5.00 each month to the save the bears lot, we was getting about $10.00 each month in junk mail from them, they get nothing now.




It just annoyed me. When i finished working at that place and used to receive the same from WHSPA (still donate to WHSPA), it just reinforced what a farce those charities are, and how much the company i worked for (and others like it) used to benefit from those so-called charities.

Having said that though, a distinction needs to be made in relation to sole or unincorporated trading, vs. trading FOR an entity, such as Tibra. Tibra, as an entity, doesn't really offer much in terms of value, to society, except that it employs people. 

Now, if those employees of Tibra can go off and adopt some of the attitudes displayed here, then i could see how they'd be of more value to society.


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## gooner (24 November 2009)

Aussiest said:


> It just annoyed me. When i finished working at that place and used to receive the same from WHSPA (still donate to WHSPA), it just reinforced what a farce those charities are, and how much the company i worked for (and others like it) used to benefit from those so-called charities.
> 
> Having said that though, a distinction needs to be made in relation to sole or unincorporated trading, vs. trading FOR an entity, such as Tibra. Tibra, as an entity, doesn't really offer much in terms of value, to society, except that it employs people.
> 
> Now, if those employees of Tibra can go off and adopt some of the attitudes displayed here, then i could see how they'd be of more value to society.




The main benefit of trading is liquidity - a company like Tibra will run hug books and provide an enormous amount of liquidity. Therefore Tibra's traders would provide more benefit to society working there than they would trading smaller amounts at home


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## Aussiest (24 November 2009)

It depends on how you define "benefits to society". A whole lotta young guns trading with somebody else's money may end up in > cash for Tibra, but how much 'real' benefit to society do each of those young guns individually offer to society if their own moral values aren't in place?

Having a deep order book isn't as much about liquidity as it is about moving the market. But, if Tibra wants to contribute to market liquidity, then i'm all for it


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2009)

The securities industry is where money gets shuffled around at crazy speeds and in vast amounts which offers a perfect breeding ground for exploitation. I have no hard evidence but there are businesses that start up with investment/trader capital solely to ride a sector trend with no (real) intention of achieving stated goals while having  the added bonus of investor/trader paid remuneration.  
For most it isn't about the business but how much money can I get from one point in time to another.

It's all about the churn.


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## bjbcats (28 November 2009)

Interesting thread. Tibra is an interesting business. From what I've read they trade on their own account, not with other peoples' money.

The way Tibra work and the fundamental equality of all participants in the market is I think a bit of a concern. Tibra make their money by arbitrage in the market using real-time micro-second trading. How is any other participant in the market going to compete ? Well, first off you have to stump up $100K+ to become a member of the ASX, then you have stump up another $200K+ to have your server with your real-time trading software located in the ASX premises, plus all the monthly ongoing charges the ASX levy for the privilege. Pretty hard for Joe Punter trading at home to be on an equal footing.

Whilst the likes of Tibra may benefit the market, the massive amounts of money they make don't come out of thin air - it comes from super funds, small traders etc bidding higher or selling lower than they might have had they had the same access to the market information Tibra have by virtue of their faster access to market information. (IMHO, anyway !)


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## Mr J (28 November 2009)

bjbcats said:


> How is any other participant in the market going to compete ?




Tibra is hardly a competitor to most participants. Everyone is playing a different game, feeding and being fed on in return. From the little I've heard about Tibra, it seems that to most they are just a mosquito bite.


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## lasty (28 November 2009)

" it seems that to most they are just a mosquito bite."

Thats being generous.
There are 1000's of these shops with Algo's set at milli seconds.

How do you stand a chance?

Well their time frame differs to yours.
They have limits on the positions they take just like you do.

Dont fear these robots.
They get it wrong like all of us.

I have seen many of these systematic models blow up.


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## Fishbulb (28 November 2009)

BradK said:


> Good point! Where are the companies honest enough and not greedy enough not to try to fix the mess THEY created?
> 
> Im p!ssed, so divide what I say by 90
> 
> Brad




Stop buying their products/services and they'll go away


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## SuperGlue (28 November 2009)

It is part of the food chain.

Just like in the back of the good old days of the "Locals" (sclapers) on the Sydney Futures Exchange floor.

Without them there would not be much liquidity. A point here & there, they are out & happy - high frequency traders - "snail mail" mode ...haha
Compare with the computer driven now.

Then there are the day traders, swing traders, position traders, etc. etc....feeding on each other down the chain line.


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## Naked shorts (30 November 2009)

to correct all the wrong ideas/biases in this thread would be to give away an edge.... so why bother...?


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## nulla nulla (30 November 2009)

It would be interesting to know how Tibra reacted/coped when the market went feral and dropped 3% on Friday 27/11/09. 
Did they have open long positions when the market was down 150 points shortly after opening or are all their position initiated afresh each day?


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## skyQuake (30 November 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> It would be interesting to know how Tibra reacted/coped when the market went feral and dropped 3% on Friday 27/11/09.
> Did they have open long positions when the market was down 150 points shortly after opening or are all their position initiated afresh each day?




They are delta neutral. A day like friday with decent trading volume would be good for them. I'd imagine people dumping stock/oppies at market would have created a few lucrative arb opportunities for them with oppies.


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