# Safety In The Market



## Buy low. sell high

Anybody heard of a company called "Safety In The Market"?

I just got some stuff in the mail from them, with a little booklet etc etc etc

I'd be interested in some opinions, I'll let you know what I think once I've read their stuff.

http://www.sitm.com.au/


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## macca

The truth is out there....................................  

run a search on a few forums, been discussed heaps of times


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## Techbuy

They were running around 10 years ago flogging the GANN system it looks like they have moved on from then.
Its a lot cheaper to get some good books on trading,  

Read guys like Guppy and Elder and I know the guys on the forum will have others they can recommend, then paper trade and read the posts in this forum then apply a small budget and go baby steps and you will achieve the results.

Most of these training  programs charge between $2000 to over $7000, some might be worth considering for learning how to trade options and other derivatives but if you are trading long with no leverage then read the books and play before commiting the cash.


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## Buy low. sell high

macca said:
			
		

> The truth is out there....................................
> 
> run a search on a few forums, been discussed heaps of times



I did, you'd be surprised how many times the words: safety, in, the, and market, come up on stock market forums   

Much easier to make a new thread.


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## Buy low. sell high

Now, I just finished reading their little booklet of 7 steps to safe investing. It was basically a whole bunch of common sense mixed with the importance of learning "technical analysis" which they'll teach you for $2000.

*It has some good basic advice* 
Step 1: Never Put All Your Eggs in One Basket
Basically saying diversify.

Step 2:Cut the Losers with Stops
About stop-losses

Step 3: Always Know Your Destination
About setting profit targets

Step 4: "Never Let a Profit Turn into a Loss"
About profit stop-losses

*Then it tries to get your money* 

Step 5: Turn the Odds in Your Favor
Vaguely talks about technical analysis with giving any insight. 

*back to basic advice* 

Step 6: Make Your Own Decisions
Saying you should stick to your plan

Step 7: "Play it by the Numbers"
Monitor, record, and learn from your experiences.

Pretty basic stuff. Good for an absolute beginner, no need to buy their product though.


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## Dr Doom

BLSH,
I think you just answered your own question. The hardest part now is getting off their mailing list. Better value in a good book (and not neccessarily on the stock market  )


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## Bronte

SITM is a very good course.
So were all the other Gann courses we have done..
Australia, England and Lambert-Gann USA   
So is "Optionetics"
So is "Three Bears"
So is "Home Trader"
So is "Market Analyser"
So is "Rivkin" 
So is "Green Dragon" EW
So have been the *many* other courses we have done.
Education is & will always be extremely important to us.
We shall keep on doing courses and educating ourselves.


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## SpacemanSpoff

Hi all, just have a few questions about various things related to Safety in the Market. Sorry if the questions are kinda dumb, I'm quite new to the stock market in general.

My first contact with SITM was from a friend of a friend who showed me how she trades every day using the SITM system and software. Having never actually seen one of these trading systems before it seemed kind of impressive, and she was obviously very happy with it, using it as one of her main sources of income. She recommended that I go to one of their free seminars to get more details - she also said that if I do sign up, only do the basic course, as the advanced courses were a waste of time in her opinion.

So recently I went to one of these seminars. All the self-promotion of Gann/Bowden and the testimonials got a bit tiresome, and it largely looked pretty dodgy to me - I could see more than a few parallels with Scientology  . BUT the actual 'ABC' swing thing looked like it could possibly work. After all I'd had one person seem to have it work for them, and another friend who attended a seminar said that it made sense to them, and would have tried it but they didn't sign up simply because they didn't have the time to put into it. Don't know if it's relevant, but both have worked for banks most of their lives.

Anyway, after asking the SITM people and confirming with them multiple times about their money-back guarantee, I - probably foolishly - decided to purchase it, planning to read through the book, then if it still seemed useless to me I'd just take it back and ask for a refund.

I've searched the internet for opinions of the company and the majority seem to think that it's either complete garbage or that it has a few good points, but they're definitely not worth the money when you can buy a few books or google them for free. So, at the moment I'm pretty sure I'll be taking it back (once I finish the book), although being able to attend as many basic seminars as you want and their 'trading tutor' support is still kinda keeping me hanging on. However, my questions are:

1. Is there any validity at all to swing trading?
2. I've already seen the software the SITM system uses (called Swing Expert or something), and it seems quite good to me, but mainly because they've made it quite simple to download the data, create the charts, and pick out the 'ABCs' depending on your parameters. Would there be an alternative easy way (i.e. slightly cheaper software) to keep track of patterns like this?

Thanks all!


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## captjohn

Yes,YES,Yes,
These con-men,in boom times come out o' the woodwork to suck in the bunnies....at $2-4,000 a pop..I've attended these out of interest here in perth when they come across ..

quite frankly, on a chart a simple crossing of the MACD will give you the same result as these so-called swings....
They are all great in hindsight but ask them to do them in advance & they coff ,coff coff.
The guarantee ,sounds good too ...but unless you do what they say for 6 months ....kiss it goodbye ....your $$$$thatis.

good luck...PS attend a course at the ASX.
captjohn


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## wayneL

Bronte said:
			
		

> SITM is a very good course.
> So were all the other Gann courses we have done..
> Australia, England and Lambert-Gann USA
> So is "Optionetics"
> So is "Three Bears"
> So is "Home Trader"
> So is "Market Analyser"
> So is "Rivkin"
> So is "Green Dragon" EW
> So have been the *many* other courses we have done.
> Education is & will always be extremely important to us.
> We shall keep on doing courses and educating ourselves.




I worked for a short time for one of these types of clowns (who shall remain nameless) as trader for a short time and had access to dozens of courses because of reciprocal marketing arrangements... including some of those above.

Some would have been useful for beginners. A very few had some really good material. Most were absolute effing crap.

All the well known ones were way too expensive. 

I also got an insight into the ethics of course marketing... diabolical stuff, mostly.

I reckon the most honest, robust, best value for money material that can actually be used to build a profitable trading business comes from Noosa Qld. and is a member here on ASF.

For options, The Options University is good, but up in the more pricey bracket.

FWIW


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## Dr Doom

wayneL said:
			
		

> I reckon the most honest, robust, best value for money material that can actually be used to build a profitable trading business comes from Noosa Qld. and is a member here on ASF.
> 
> FWIW




Excuse my ignorance wayne but who is it?


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## wayneL

Dr Doom said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance wayne but who is it?



Nick Radge


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## Techbuy

wayneL said:
			
		

> Nick Radge




Tell us more and why you are so sure about that and how do we check it out.


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## wayneL

Techbuy said:
			
		

> Tell us more and why you are so sure about that and how do we check it out.




Well I didn't want to become Nicks' marketing agent, but here is his website: www.reefcap.com


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## Bronte

Bronte said:
			
		

> SITM is a very good course.
> So were all the other Gann courses we have done..
> Australia, England and Lambert-Gann USA
> So is "Optionetics"
> So is "Three Bears"
> So is "Home Trader"
> So is "Market Analyser"
> So is "Rivkin"
> So is "Green Dragon" EW
> So have been the *many* other courses we have done.
> Education is & will always be extremely important to us.
> We shall keep on doing courses and educating ourselves.



Comparing the SITM course to many other ones we have done in Australia.
We thought that it was certainly well worth the money.
*"The cost rapidly became insignificant"*
N.B. "all attendees had to sign a strict confidentiality agreement".


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## Bronte

Disclaimer:
Although we got to know David Bowden and many of the staff at SITM.
We have no interest in selling SITM or any other course mentioned


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## wayneL

Bronte said:
			
		

> Comparing the SITM course to many other ones we have done in Australia.
> We thought that it was certainly well worth the money.
> "The cost rapidly became insignificant"
> N.B. "all attendees had to sign a strict confidentiality agreement".












 Yeah we got rich from Gann, but don't ask any questions!!!


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## Bronte

Yes waynel, we got very wealthy. 
It wasn't directly from Gann......
Our wealth came from our Real Estate investments.
The trading just gave us great cashflow.


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## wayneL

Bronte said:
			
		

> Yes waynel, we got very wealthy.
> It wasn't directly from Gann......
> Our wealth came from our Real Estate investments.
> The trading just gave us great cashflow.



I observe you feel the need to let everybody know at every available opportunity. This lead me to think... nah, won't go there.


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## Bronte

Fair enough


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## Pager

I have not done the SITM course but have seen it via a friend who did the course a few years ago (late 90,s), had a read through the manuals, the basic ABC system looks ok and probably works if implemented correctly and with discipline.

They do however advise trading 10% of your account size on each trade   , think it was angled that it only took a small accounts of about $10K to be able to trade Futures and given the risk most ABC trades had from looking at them (would have been around 30 points in the Spi or $750 plus brokerage), risking 10% would mean they could say it only took a $10K account.

A few losing trades in a row and you could be in serious drawdown, hard enough for those who have been trading a while but anyone new to trading I would imagine it would be a nightmare.

Agree with others that there is better value elsewhere and Nick Radges stuff would be a great place to start.   

Cheers

Pager


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## machi

I think Bill Mclarens educational DVD's are pretty hard to beat and better value for $$, if you wanna buy educational material here in OZ..


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## IFocus

I think Waynel has nailed it and agree re Nick Radge haven’t seen any other with the same ethics and ability.

Although had lurked at Reef for many years I became a member of the Chartist only recently to expand my toolbox and regret not joining sooner.

I have no affiliation or connection with Nick Radge blah blah blah just my own experience

Focus


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## Magdoran

While I agree that there are a lot of spruikers out there not offering value for money, we should also recognise the other key variable – the individual.

Key things to think about is what you aim to achieve, in what time frame, with how much effort.  Then you have to consider your innate makeup, and preferences, capabilities, talents etc.

Then you have to ask yourself how much time researching what is available will you put in, and how much money do you realistically want to spend, and what do you think would be value for money.

Here are some simple truths:  the price of a course doesn’t necessarily correspond with quality or guarantee it will fit your persona and style.

You can’t expect to just walk in and be given a cash machine where you flip a switch and money comes out.

Input to an extent reflects output, although luck, talent, and mental attitude are key variables in the mix.  Long term sound market psychology/mindset will triumph over the initial lucky streak often found in a clearly trending market.  Translation – psychology, system, strategy, and analysis working in harmony are the key, (system and strategy deal with money management and positive expectancy).  Personally I think Psychology is number one, and the most elusive quality to develop.

It is unrealistic to expect someone to sell you their unique way to make money.  Even if they offer the foundations, they will always have elements they either won’t of can’t convey to you.

So, the key is to keep an open but discerning mind, and realise that this is a long term journey of discovery and development.  The challenge is to find approaches that work for you, and move in a direction where you can (gradually) improve.

I disagree with this notion that forecasting styles are the same as moving average oscillator styles (MACDs for instance).  Believe me there are some powerful technical styles out there that are significantly superior to many of the basic dime a dozen crossover lagging styles.  Swing trading based on Elliott Wave, Gann, time cycles, and other forecasting styles are vastly different to the moving average/oscillator approaches when effectively employed. Many that detract from these styles in a sweeping fashion usually show a distinct lack or research on the subject.  I’d love to see these people logically tear these theories apart rather than just dismiss them without taking the time to research them fully.  

Just because the rif raff who claim to know these styles and can’t demonstrate their work in advance doesn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that others can’t do this.  I trade this way, and it works for me.  I even put up some demonstrations of some of the concepts on the “Improving Chart Analysis” thread (not that I’m claiming to be an expert – I’m not.  Maybe in 10 years time...). Just something to consider.  Some people are more suited to mechanical styles – it’s all horses for courses.  Just try to find what works for you whether it’s mechanical, intuitive/discretionary etc – perhaps try to be open to ideas, but discerning.

So, while I’m reluctant to recommend anything, I have consistently thought Mark Douglas’ book “Trading in the Zone” is the key text for psychology, and I agree with machi that Bill McLaren is certainly one of the most authoritative sources of knowledge when it comes to charting, and certainly if you are interested in advanced T/A (which requires years of effort to master), I have yet to see better work in this area.  Add to that Prechter’s work on Elliott (EWI aren’t bad), and that should keep the serious budding technical analyst busy for quite some time.  This is about developing your own skills, not relying on others, so it is only appropriate for those willing to spend the time and effort researching and developing their own style.

Food for thought.


Regards,


Magdoran


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## wayneL

H.G. Wells said:
			
		

> ...and I agree with machi that Bill McLaren is certainly one of the most authoritative sources of knowledge when it comes to charting, and certainly if you are interested in advanced T/A (which requires years of effort to master), I have yet to see better work in this area.




Mag,

You've spoken highly of Bill before, and I've only ever heard positive comment (eg machi)

I believe his courses are reasonably priced also, yes?


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## Magdoran

wayneL said:
			
		

> Mag,
> 
> You've spoken highly of Bill before, and I've only ever heard positive comment (eg machi)
> 
> I believe his courses are reasonably priced also, yes?



Hello Wayne (Count),


The Foundations for successful trading DVD set is currently $494.30 AUD.  

The online subscription is (AUD) $242 for 6 months, or $44 per month (only really worthwhile in conjunction with the DVD set).

He’s also just released a new ebook on Trends which is $84.70 AUD (I haven’t seen it so I can’t comment on how good or bad it is).


Regards


Mag


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## CanOz

Magdoran said:
			
		

> Hello Wayne (Count),
> 
> 
> The Foundations for successful trading DVD set is currently $494.30 AUD.
> 
> The online subscription is (AUD) $242 for 6 months, or $44 per month (only really worthwhile in conjunction with the DVD set).
> 
> He’s also just released a new ebook on Trends which is $84.70 AUD (I haven’t seen it so I can’t comment on how good or bad it is).
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Mag




Radge certainly beats that for value, at $50 per month. You get lots of free stuff to, including 3-4 charts with video analysis every nite, the volume spread analysis ebook, a bang for the buck filter, and heaps more. Since i've joined i generally only used it for the educational value, until recently when i started to take trades based on his signals and just sold out of BHP yesterday for a nice profit. 

The funny thing is too...i'm not a big fan of EW but now i find myself staring at patterns of waves jumping off the screen at me, its like its been a passive learning experience in regards to the EW theory. Still a long ways to go but i'm more interested now than i was before.

I have no affiliation with him what so ever but i just think what he is doing is so under rated.

 

Cheers,


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## Magdoran

CanOz said:
			
		

> Radge certainly beats that for value, at $50 per month. You get lots of free stuff to, including 3-4 charts with video analysis every nite, the volume spread analysis ebook, a bang for the buck filter, and heaps more. Since i've joined i generally only used it for the educational value, until recently when i started to take trades based on his signals and just sold out of BHP yesterday for a nice profit.
> 
> The funny thing is too...i'm not a big fan of EW but now i find myself staring at patterns of waves jumping off the screen at me, its like its been a passive learning experience in regards to the EW theory. Still a long ways to go but i'm more interested now than i was before.
> 
> I have no affiliation with him what so ever but i just think what he is doing is so under rated.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



You know, I was reluctant to recommend anything because you run the risk of upsetting people if they don’t get the benefit out of something as much as you do.  It’s just like giving trading recommendations to other traders, if they trade it and it doesn’t work out they can become angry with you, and if they don’t trade it and it works, then can feel resentful… hence I just responded to Wayne's question on price without saying much else.

Hence I don’t want to come over as a spruiker.  But I’ve done a lot of courses and investigated and trialled a lot of styles out there, and just try to think as objectively as I can (although I’m clearly biased on this, but in an informed way if that makes sense? Ha, wheels within wheels and all that!).  What impressed me is that Bill’s been a trader for over 40 years, and even traded on the floor in the US, hence he’s got a lot of experience… and I really have seen no equal (perhaps Prechter at his theoretical best in EW).

Then guess what happens.  We start to get the subjective value judgements coming in.  This course is better than that.  Ok, so be it, I’ve seen both courses in question here, and it doesn’t take a genius to know my opinion.  But it is just that. An opinion based on personal preferences.  I did not make any overt comparison or say “buy this”.  What I did say was that for people seriously wishing to learn technical analysis that the “foundations” was an excellent course – there was no comparison made.

When I see people try to compare value, it is so subjective, and when a newbie T/A person sees $10 difference in the price, they attribute that to the value proposition without considering the content.  I just wonder how many of these people have thoroughly investigated the alternatives.

I didn’t want to get into this, but CanOz, well done, you’ve forced my hand.  I have no affiliation with McLaren either, and while I think Radge is very good for beginners, trying to compare him in the technical analysis capability and putting him higher than Bill McLaren is quite a statement.  I have to strongly disagree here, I see no comparison.

So CanOz, I imagine you have thoroughly looked at both courses, haven’t you?  Please tell me exactly why you think one is better than the other. Please outline the core concepts of McLaren’s patterns of trend and tell me how this is inferior to other courses? 

Have you actually studied McLaren to make such a sweeping statement? How long exactly have you studied Rage, and how long have you studied McLaren?

Since you are so obviously such an accomplished and knowledgeable technical analyst, let’s see your handiwork at charting, and put it up for a comparison with mine. You have made the challenge, so now it’s time for you to put up or shut up.  


Regards


Magdoran


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## CanOz

Magdoran said:
			
		

> You know, I was reluctant to recommend anything because you run the risk of upsetting people if they don’t get the benefit out of something as much as you do.  It’s just like giving trading recommendations to other traders, if they trade it and it doesn’t work out they can become angry with you, and if they don’t trade it and it works, then can feel resentful… hence I just responded to Wayne's question on price without saying much else.
> 
> Hence I don’t want to come over as a spruiker.  But I’ve done a lot of courses and investigated and trialled a lot of styles out there, and just try to think as objectively as I can (although I’m clearly biased on this, but in an informed way it that makes sense? Ha, wheels within wheels and all that!).  What impressed me is that Bill’s been a trader for over 40 years, and even traded on the floor in the US, hence he’s got a lot of experience… and I really have seen no equal (perhaps Prechter at his theoretical best in EW).
> 
> Then guess what happens.  We start to get the subjective value judgements coming in.  This course is better than that.  Ok, so be it, I’ve seen both courses in question here, and it doesn’t take a genius to know my opinion.  But it is just that. An opinion based on personal preferences.  I did not make any overt comparison or say “buy this”.  What I did say was that for people seriously wishing to learn technical analysis that the “foundations” was an excellent course – there was no comparison made.
> 
> When I see people try to compare value, it is so subjective, and when a newbie T/A person sees $10 difference in the price, they attribute that to the value proposition without considering the content.  I just wonder how many of these people have thoroughly investigated the alternatives.
> 
> I didn’t want to get into this, but CanOz, well done, you’ve forced my hand.  I have no affiliation with McLaren either, and while I think Radge is very good for beginners, trying to compare him in the technical analysis capability and putting him higher than Bill McLaren is quite a statement.  I have to strongly disagree here, I see no comparison.
> 
> So CanOz, I imagine you have thoroughly looked at both courses, haven’t you?  Please tell me exactly why you think one is better than the other. Please outline the core concepts of McLaren’s patterns of trend and tell me how this is inferior to other courses?
> 
> Have you actually studied McLaren to make such a sweeping statement? How long exactly have you studied Rage, and how long have you studied McLaren?
> 
> Since you are so obviously such an accomplished and knowledgeable technical analyst, let’s see your handiwork at charting, and put it up for a comparison with mine. You have made the challenge, so now it’s time for you to put up or shut up.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Magdoran




I'll quite happily shut up Mag...given that i don't actively 'study' either of them, i'm sure your analysis would be miles ahead of my immature T/A. I've only been at this part time for about 8 months.....still very much a learner. 

So i'll get off this thread and leave it to you pro's to debate.

Sorry for ruffling any feathers folks.  

Cheers,


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## machi

CanOz said:
			
		

> Radge certainly beats that for value, at $50 per month. You get lots of free stuff to, including 3-4 charts with video analysis every nite, the volume spread analysis ebook, a bang for the buck filter, and heaps more. Since i've joined i generally only used it for the educational value, until recently when i started to take trades based on his signals and just sold out of BHP yesterday for a nice profit.




Do you want quality or quantity?.. 

I have read Nick Radges book Adaptive Analysis,  and found it to be OK as an introduction for beginners, but he material is rather generic for the more experienced trader,  The section on Elliott I found to be primitive, no new ideas there....


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## CanOz

machi said:
			
		

> Do you want quality or quantity?..
> 
> I have read Nick Radges book Adaptive Analysis,  and found it to be OK as an introduction for beginners, but he material is rather generic for the more experienced trader,  The section on Elliott I found to be primitive, no new ideas there.>>>>




I was referring to his site "The Chartist", not his book..which i have also read.

Cheers,


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## Magdoran

CanOz said:
			
		

> I'll quite happily shut up Mag...given that i don't actively 'study' either of them, i'm sure your analysis would be miles ahead of my immature T/A. I've only been at this part time for about 8 months.....still very much a learner.
> 
> So i'll get off this thread and leave it to you pro's to debate.
> 
> Sorry for ruffling any feathers folks.
> 
> Cheers,



Hello CanOz,


I appreciate your honesty and good grace, thank-you.  I’m sorry if I came over too strongly on this issue, but I suppose I do have a passion for it.

I really didn’t want to get into a “this is better than that” slanging match, precisely because everyone will have their own unique needs and perspectives, and it is not for me to say which is better for an individual.  That’s up to them.

If people simply said that they thought “X” was worthwhile for whatever reason, fine, no problem.  I can also respect considered well thought out critiques.

Good luck with your journey and it sounds like you are entering an exciting phase in your technical analysis development.  This is something I share, and the empowerment received by being able to recognise patterns that you couldn’t see before I know is a wonderful feeling.


Regards,


Magdoran


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## BentRod

Canaussieuck,
                      I couldn't agree more regarding the chartist. Great value with the video charts, 4 systems,traders almanac and all the rest of the educational material.



> Do you want quality or quantity?..
> 
> I have read Nick Radges book Adaptive Analysis, and found it to be OK as an introduction for beginners, but he material is rather generic for the more experienced trader, The section on Elliott I found to be primitive, no new ideas there.>>>>




Are you saying that more complex is better??

If so I disagree.

I like Nick's style of EW/trading.

I'll stick with the bloke who called the correction at 5400(and traded it short all the way down) live here on the forum.


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## Bronte

BentRod said:
			
		

> I'll stick with the bloke who called the correction at 5400(and traded it short all the way down) live here on the forum.



Can you post a link please BentRod.....We missed this trade


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## Magdoran

Just a quick clarification here:

I would see doing both courses by McLaren and Radge as complementary.  I would not normally “compare” them since they are addressing quite different aspects of technical analysis.

McLaren does have a section on wave structure which briefly introduces Prechter and Frost’s interpretations of Elliott Wave theory. But it in no way is an in-depth analysis of Elliott Wave theory.

Radge is primarily concerned with EW theory, and has an excellent introduction to using EW analysis, and also a focus on money management and positive expectancy.

I would see these as complementary since they deal with different aspects of trading, and having both areas of knowledge would be beneficial, in my opinion.

McLaren though covers key concepts in charting principles that I think are excellent as a foundation for developing effective technical analysis skills.


Mag


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## Nick Radge

To clarify, my trading course has no Elliott Wave or Volume Analysis. I think the original question was specifically re the course.


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## coyotte

Magdoran:

Is McLaren's DVD you mention the same as the CD set seminar he had by the same title?


Cheers 
Coyotte


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## Magdoran

Since Canaussieuck commented on the online content primarily, my understanding from the online materials that I’ve seen had examples of Elliott Wave numbering approaches incorporated into these.

Also, since the subject of text came up, I thought it was reasonable to sum up a body of knowledge in it’s essence.

My understanding is that Nick’s approach is primarily based on the works of Robert Fisher, and Robert Miner…

Hence my statements were based on the broader sense not the narrow one…


Mag


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## Magdoran

coyotte said:
			
		

> Magdoran:
> 
> Is McLaren's DVD you mention the same as the CD set seminar he had by the same title?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Coyotte



You’ve got me there coyotte – I’ve never seen a cd set, only DVD.  There may be some tapes from the 90s someone has copied to cd out there, but I’m not aware of them…

I’d be interested if you know where you can get them, I have some holes in my McLaren collection…

Maybe it is just a pirated audio version?  The video side of the DVD is vital in my view…

But the DVD I was referring to is the Foundations set, part 1 not the time factor set.


Mag


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## SevenFX

Mag,

I spoke to the Gentleman Himself (Bill Mc) today and for the record, the was very Approachable, Humble, Decent and a wealth of knowledge from what Little my judgements could make.

He did mention his trading started back in the 60's and working on the US floor himself, which I'm sure their would have been lots to learn.

I'm still researching his stuff and leaning to a purchase of both his dvd sets.

Anyway Guys, better get back to *"Safety In the Market" *thread. in all fairness to OP.

Cheers
SevenFX


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## machi

BentRod said:
			
		

> Canaussieuck,
> I couldn't agree more regarding the chartist. Great value with the video charts, 4 systems,traders almanac and all the rest of the educational material.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that more complex is better??
> 
> If so I disagree.
> 
> I like Nick's style of EW/trading.
> 
> I'll stick with the bloke who called the correction at 5400(and traded it short all the way down) live here on the forum.



You just do that man, that’s your decision and I could really not care less, just giving people my honest opinion. Perhaps it just not suit me, or perhaps I think that I am capable of better than the level it tries to teach. Dunno.

As for the XAO 5400 correction call(he actually said that was the top), it was a good one but I know of at least 2 others on this site that also made a similar calls and even more calls on commodities or stocks and they ain’t  even professionals!
It’s easy for one to boast of their achievements isn’t it, but how about their failures.  How about his call in the chartist for TLS to go sub $3 last year, (he was looking for $2.83), how about ZFX before the last peak @$19.04(he was still bullish)  and then again last week(when he was bearish- and the ass covering thereafter)? Out by miles and there are others which I won’t list.

Every Guru has his day, they make 1-2 good calls and they are champions. Then they make 1-2 bad calls and they lose respect quick smart.  Just look back into history....


----------



## Magdoran

SevenFX said:
			
		

> Mag,
> 
> I spoke to the Gentleman Himself (Bill Mc) today and for the record, the was very Approachable, Humble, Decent and a wealth of knowledge from what Little my judgements could make.
> 
> He did mention his trading started back in the 60's and working on the US floor himself, which I'm sure their would have been lots to learn.
> 
> I'm still researching his stuff and leaning to a purchase of both his dvd sets.
> 
> Anyway Guys, better get back to *"Safety In the Market" *thread. in all fairness to OP.
> 
> Cheers
> SevenFX



Hello SevenFX,


That’s impressive that you got to talk with him!

If you are going to look at the DVDs, I’d suggest doing part 1 first (the first set of 2 DVDs).  This should take a minimum of around 6 months to glean, and probably a year or two to master (especially when you replay it a few times, and all those throw away/aside one liners suddenly really make sense).

The time factor DVD is very heavy going.  Bill is very good at conveying the concept as simply as he can, but really mastering this is very challenging since it relies heavily on the grounding from the first set, and then takes a long time to put it all together.  Many do not wish to emark on this leg, and are happy just with the first set... up to you...

I’m still working on this, and seem to find myself making break throughs progressively each year (but then Bill mentions this is the same for him – there’s always something new to learn).

Also, EW theories I have found are compatible with this style, and in fact you can kind of “fuse” the two together since wave structure is a component of McLaren’s style but not his speciality.  You could I suppose embark on both at the same time.

I know wavepicker benefited from the first DVD set which helped his EW work from a pattern perspective.

Hope that helps.


Regards


Magdoran

P.S. I’d do the DVDs first rather than try to tackle “Gann Made Easy” which predates the DVDs, and to an extent was superseded, but if you have an interest in understanding geometric T/A styles, there are some beneficial sections on charting Auburn Motors and US Steel – really freaky time/price concepts embedded in there if you can take the time to work it out, but do the foundations first or it will probably take a lot longer. Mag


----------



## CanOz

machi said:
			
		

> You just do that man, that’s your decision and I could really not care less, just giving people my honest opinion. Perhaps it just not suit me, or perhaps I think that I am capable of better than the level it tries to teach. Dunno.
> 
> As for the XAO 5400 correction call(he actually said that was the top), it was a good one but I know of at least 2 others on this site that also made a similar calls and even more calls on commodities or stocks and they ain’t even professionals!
> It’s easy for one to boast of their achievements isn’t it, but how about their failures. How about his call in the chartist for TLS to go sub $3 last year, (he was looking for $2.83), how about ZFX before the last peak @$19.04(he was still bullish) and then again last week(when he was bearish- and the ass covering thereafter)? Out by miles and there are others which I won’t list.
> 
> Every Guru has his day, they make 1-2 good calls and they are champions. Then they make 1-2 bad calls and they lose respect quick smart. Just look back into history....




You're being disrespectful now mate.   

You could have put it a little more diplomatically. Everyone here will repect you opinions, provided you put them forth with respect to other members in mind.


----------



## Nick Radge

The correct accuarcy is 58%


----------



## Sean K

Gents (and maybe ladies), 

Just be minful while contributing to this thread that when commenting on service providers such as SITM, or Nick Radge, or anyone, that you need to be as objective and factual as possible. 

This is a public forum and any criticism of a service provider, that is not true and accurate, could stir up some trouble.

Cheers,
Sean K


----------



## theasxgorilla

machi said:
			
		

> It’s easy for one to boast of their achievements isn’t it, but how about their failures.




Acknowledging failures is okay...boasting about them I consider a little strange.

BTW, it's possible to be wrong and still make money.  That's the objective after all, isn't it??  You might like to consider this quote from John Kenneth Galbraith:

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof".

Perhaps thats why so many traders are reputed to fail...they get too busy on the proof.  Machi, what do you do?


----------



## wayneL

Bronte said:
			
		

> Can you post a link please BentRod.....We missed this trade




Regarding this post and the later one which you deleted:

It was called well BEFORE the fact... not posted here, but I can vouch for it.

But FWIW, I don't think Nick is into boasting about calls (someone else brought it up). It was "one trade in the next thousand" and it's your a/c balance at the end of the thousand trades that's important.

Re Radge verses Mclaren: There is no "verses". Both have different approaches and both offer sincere, good value information. It's not a contest. It's up to personal preferences.

Cheers


----------



## Bronte

BentRod said:
			
		

> I'll stick with the bloke who called the correction at 5400(and traded it short all the way down) *live here * on the forum.



Thank you waynel for clearing that up, so he didn't


----------



## wayneL

Bronte said:
			
		

> Thank you waynel for clearing that up, so he didn't



I'm wondering about the pedagoguery, in light of your tainted record here.


----------



## Bronte

Very funny Wayne  
You yourself can vouche for some of our calls.


----------



## Nick Radge

Trading is not about making rash calls or pretty charts. Its about making money. There is a distinct difference to analysing a chart then making a trade. The markets are dynamic and one must adjust accordingly. 

Post #5 and #30. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3310&highlight=fibonacci


----------



## SevenFX

Gees,

This thread has gone so far off topic, even the moderators have got in on the action.

Can we pls bring it back on topic, and shift all offtopic stuff in new thread.

SevenFX


----------



## tech/a

Other than Radge,are there any other educators out there who are actually licienced by ASIC.

What is it with people who continually wish to label people who educate others as GURU's.

I guess it comes from those who are "Challenged" in the skills of trading.

90% of traders fail---wow I wonder why.


----------



## Bronte

Nick Radge said:
			
		

> Trading is not about making rash calls or pretty charts. *Its about making money.*



Totally agree with this Nick.  
I had to leave this discussion to make some. 
SITM taught us how to trade Big numbers.

It is not about *how* you make your money.....
We believe, it is about *what* you do with it.


----------



## Kauri

Bronte said:
			
		

> Totally agree with this Nick.
> I had to leave this discussion to make some.
> SITM taught us how to trade Big numbers.
> 
> It is not about *how* you make your money.....
> We believe, it is about *what* you do with it.




   Bronte....
               You surprise me, judging by a photo you posted a while ago there is no way yours can be biggest.      Or can it??


----------



## tech/a

> I had to leave this discussion to make some.
> SITM taught us how to trade Big numbers.




Oh god!
Get me a bucket.


----------



## Bronte

Hehe! Kauri / tech/a

Somewhere in the original 'Trading the SPI' thread.
We discussed Big numbers & Bias's etc in detail.

_I only added the SITM bit to try and keep the thread on topic._
Sorry guys


----------



## Sean K

Come on people, let's get it back on topic. Somehow.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin

tech/a said:
			
		

> Other than Radge,are there any other educators out there who are actually licienced by ASIC.
> 
> What is it with people who continually wish to label people who educate others as GURU's.
> 
> I guess it comes from those who are "Challenged" in the skills of trading.
> 
> 90% of traders fail---wow I wonder why.




Tech,
"Guru" is Indonesian for "teacher".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I went to an ATAA (Australian Technical Analysis Association) meeting in Sydney many years ago. I live in rural Australia and was comforted to be seated beside an  investor/trader from Quilpie in western Queensland.

His mantra which he repeated ad nauseum , during presentations and after was

1. It doesn't matter a stuff where you enter a trade.

2. You need to have good money management, the trade should be part of an overall investment plan, don't over-commit.

3. Have a top loss strategy and stick to it , whether a percentage or a support level breached.

4. Follow the trend

My question is,   How different is the Quilpie advice from SITM and Nick Radge? 

Garpal


----------



## investforwealth

Bronte said:


> SITM is a very good course.
> So were all the other Gann courses we have done..




It's good to hear that you're making money from the techniques of W.D. Gann, because it seems to as though he himself wasn't able to.  I've recently been reading Dr. Alexander Elder's book, _Trading for a Living_, and in it, he writes:

“Various opportunists sell ‘Gann courses’ and ‘Gann software.’ They claim that Gann was one of the best traders who ever lived, that he left a $50 million estate, and so on. I interviewed W. D. Gann’s son, an analyst for a Boston bank. He told me that his famous father *could not support his family by trading but earned a living by writing and selling instructional courses*.”

Is this also true of David Bowden, who it would appear follows in the footsteps of Gann?

Elder continues, “When W. D. Gann died in the 1950s, his estate, including his house, was valued at slightly over $100,000.  The legend of W. D. Gann, the giant of trading, is perpetuated by those who sell courses and paraphernalia to gullible customers.”

Maybe Elder is the one who is full of poop... but I doubt it.


----------



## theasxgorilla

investforwealth said:


> Maybe Elder is the one who is full of poop... but I doubt it.




Whilst Elder has a big following and guru status, I think it would be reasonable to say that he is very narrow-minded with his opinions.


----------



## yonnie

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Tech,
> "Guru" is Indonesian for "teacher".





S**T, are we not in Ozzie now?!?


----------



## Fool

*trading seminars*

has anyone been to one of these ? or had any experience with safety in the market?
they have a "REFUND POLICY" so can you really lose anything by trying them out?? besides your money in the market!!


http://www.sitm.com.au/ 


any advice anyone?


----------



## AndrewM123

*Re: trading seminars*



Fool said:


> has anyone been to one of these ? or had any experience with safety in the market?
> they have a "REFUND POLICY" so can you really lose anything by trying them out?? besides your money in the market!!
> 
> 
> http://www.sitm.com.au/
> 
> 
> any advice anyone?




I attended an introduction after being persuaded to go with a friend, All information seemed to be readily available on the net without the cost. I googled them after the event and was not impressed with some of the results. Sundry clauses with the refund policy.  IMHO


----------



## SevenFX

Actually did their course a 2 years ago, and not happy with a number of things, hence wouldn't recommend them to strangers, asf members or friends for that matter.

Their software which they suggest they give you for free, but charge you 2500-4500 for course depending. (not very stable either and don't intend to upgrade it, and lenghty discussions, so would have had to BUY newer version...funny that)

Their free Data policy for the software runs out after the first year, and cripples (disables) the software from still using it if you don't subscribe to the $600 annual fee.

So the black box technology which they say is yours for life, has the biggest gotchya in it...rendering it useless.

There are far better packages out there, and more stable.

Sorry Love to say how wonderful they are after spending few $$$K with them. butttt

SevenFX


----------



## jammin

I attended an induction type evening recently to see if anything had changed since I did the Starter course back in 1999. The only change seemed to be the prices have gone up since 1999, as you would expect, and there is now software available to save you doing all the entry/exit/RR calcs.
From my 1999 experiences I would recommend them to complete novices who are unable to pull the trigger. They provide excellent support which, if used, would remove those reasons for not entering a trade.


----------



## kam75

For what its worth:

Save your money for trading and read a handful of books by reputable authors.  You may want to start with Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, by Edwin Le Fevre, and How I made 2 Million Dollars in the Stockmarket by the master himself, Nicolas Darvas.  

Alternatively, visit Google.com for sharesmadeeasy.  A free trader's blog that may just show you what others charge 1000's of dollars for.


----------



## beachlife

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I just registered and had to share this.

I did the SITM course a few years ago.  I traded it and lost money so I stopped and did 3 months of backtesting.  The result was a huge loss.  I spoke to my broker and he said most SITM fail within a few months.

Since they offered support I sent my "account executive" my results and told them of my brokers comments.  I was hoping that they would point out some error with my testing and put me on the path to massive riches.  I also made them this offer....

"I will do any course, and use any software, and use any broker, and use any set of rules and trade any market that you nominate.  I will open an account with $20,000 and trade it for one year.  I will give you full access to all trading statements and a daily report of scans and trade decisions.  I will give you ALL the profits made after 12 months of trading, on the condition that the software, data, and training are provided free of charge here in Perth and that, if the account has lost money after 12 months, you will fully refund it.  If your system and training are as good as you say it is then the profits should far exceed the cost of training etc so that is a great offer if you are prepared to put your time and money where your mouth is - I am!!"



The reply from my "account executive" was......



"If you dont mind me asking who is your broker?"


I think that speaks for itself.


----------



## sere

Hi,

Any recent experience with Safety In The Market, during 2009-2010

cheers


----------



## dobsen

I attended a Safety in the Market seminar last night in Sydney and it was good information. Obviously they are selling you a course to get into the market. The whole package was $6480 but if you sign up on the night they would reduce it to $3995.00. Not only that they were offering a 6 months money back guarantee that if you dont make 3 times what the product costs you then you can return everything. 

Suffice to say a few people signed up on the night. Unfortunately for me I have heard the same patter in other seminars and I had already signed up with another company doing Index Trading which I am trying to make work.

What they are explaining sounds OK, the presentation was OK but what I am finding hard to find on the internet is some testimonials from people. The only ones I find are the ones on their site but I want to find others. 

Anyone out there involved in this company and if so how are you going with your trading ?


----------



## will2rob

I had a look at SITM before I started trading last year. Soon as I heard the spiel about the course being $6k but for the night being only $3k if you signed up then and there I knew it was probably a load of hooey. However, they were spruiking a no questions asked, money back guarantee if you weren't satisfied and returned all the materials in sale-able condition provided you hadn't done the weekend training course, which they try to book you into asap before you back out. Once you've gone to the training you're locked in.

I signed up to have a look at the pack. I must confess, I had absolutely no intention of keeping the pack or doing their training, and I certainly had no intention of kissing $6k goodbye.

Upon examination the materials were quite basic. The real hook is that once you've done the basic course, they'll sting you to do the advanced course which is where you'll REALLY learn how to make big money.  I think there is a super dooper advanced course after that where you get to spend a weekend of quality time with Bowden learning how he has made a fortune out of trading. I did some research at the time and I think the figure to become a thetan level 7, sorry, I mean gun trader was in the order of another $12k+.

Anyway, after I perused the pack I rung them and said I wanted a refund. They strung me along for a week or so until I just lobbed on the doorstep of their office with the pack under my arm.  They couldn't avoid me any longer so they tried to quiz me about why I was returning the product.  I told them their guarantee was "no questions asked" so I politely declined to give them a reason. Anyway, I stood my digs and after an hour or so being shuffled up the line  they agreed to give me a full refund. It still took me a couple of weeks to get it out of them.

Based on my experience, I formed the view they were a pack of shonks and I would not recommend them to anyone. They are part of the Hubb financial group who provides the EOD Data you are locked into. Other companies and serviced linked to this mob include  The Hubb Organisation Pty Ltd, Optionetics Pty Ltd and optionsXpress Australia Pty Ltd, Investment Educators Australia and Sharesbulletin.  HUBB has relationships with brokerage firms including optionsXpress Australia Pty Ltd, CMC Markets Pty Ltd and MF Global Pty Ltd. and they get a kickback if you use those brokers.


----------



## georgey

Safety in the market = POSITION SIZING. Because that's free advice
some here are probably not interested.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

will2rob said:


> I had a look at SITM before I started trading last year. Soon as I heard the spiel about the course being $6k but for the night being only $3k if you signed up then and there I knew it was probably a load of hooey. However, they were spruiking a no questions asked, money back guarantee if you weren't satisfied and returned all the materials in sale-able condition provided you hadn't done the weekend training course, which they try to book you into asap before you back out. Once you've gone to the training you're locked in.
> 
> I signed up to have a look at the pack. I must confess, I had absolutely no intention of keeping the pack or doing their training, and I certainly had no intention of kissing $6k goodbye.
> 
> Upon examination the materials were quite basic. The real hook is that once you've done the basic course, they'll sting you to do the advanced course which is where you'll REALLY learn how to make big money.  I think there is a super dooper advanced course after that where you get to spend a weekend of quality time with Bowden learning how he has made a fortune out of trading. I did some research at the time and I think the figure to become a thetan level 7, sorry, I mean gun trader was in the order of another $12k+.
> 
> Anyway, after I perused the pack I rung them and said I wanted a refund. They strung me along for a week or so until I just lobbed on the doorstep of their office with the pack under my arm.  They couldn't avoid me any longer so they tried to quiz me about why I was returning the product.  I told them their guarantee was "no questions asked" so I politely declined to give them a reason. Anyway, I stood my digs and after an hour or so being shuffled up the line  they agreed to give me a full refund. It still took me a couple of weeks to get it out of them.
> 
> Based on my experience, I formed the view they were a pack of shonks and I would not recommend them to anyone. They are part of the Hubb financial group who provides the EOD Data you are locked into. Other companies and serviced linked to this mob include  The Hubb Organisation Pty Ltd, Optionetics Pty Ltd and optionsXpress Australia Pty Ltd, Investment Educators Australia and Sharesbulletin.  HUBB has relationships with brokerage firms including optionsXpress Australia Pty Ltd, CMC Markets Pty Ltd and MF Global Pty Ltd. and they get a kickback if you use those brokers.




A very very wise post mate.

I'm glad you got your dosh back.

gg


----------



## tech/a

About time!

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...nancial-educator-to-court-20101208-18pe6.html


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Safety In The Market.*

I can think of quite a few others they should go after as well!!


----------



## builder2818

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



Ruby said:


> I can think of quite a few others they should go after as well!!




I am surprised that it hasn't happened yet. How do they get away with it?


----------



## tech/a

*Re: Safety In The Market.*

Evidently the way ASIC work is on the weight of numbers principal.
Once there are overwhelming complaints the machine gets going.
The problem is its pretty toothless as all they need to do is place a disclaimer and thats it.
Lots of OR's in their wish list to the court!


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



builder2818 said:


> I am surprised that it hasn't happened yet. How do they get away with it?




They get away with it because not enough people complain and because ASIC is basically a toothless tiger.   I know of two very genuine complaints made to ASIC about fraudulent practices, and they chose not to take action on either of them.


----------



## luke256

*Re: Safety In The Market.*

I've done the SITM courses and never had a problem with the systems or the way they operate. A system may suit one person and be profitable for them. Then for someone else be unprofitable. They have a disclaimer on the website and terms of purchase. Anyone can read these and if they are unhappy with it they can walk away and not buy it.

From what i have seen it is usually not the system but the trader who is too lazy to do the work or don't follow the rules properly.


----------



## Vicki

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



luke256 said:


> I've done the SITM courses and never had a problem with the systems or the way they operate. A system may suit one person and be profitable for them. Then for someone else be unprofitable. They have a disclaimer on the website and terms of purchase. Anyone can read these and if they are unhappy with it they can walk away and not buy it.
> 
> From what i have seen it is usually not the system but the trader who is too lazy to do the work or don't follow the rules properly.




Hi Luke,
I'm currently looking & trying to learn about different ways of trading.

Could you expand on the statement: A system may suit one person and be profitable for them. Then for someone else be unprofitable. 

As I was under the the impression, that was what a system is for?

Forgive my ignorance, it's just that I've heard that "mono" of "you should have an effective system, to follow with discipline, so that even your mother could do it" etc.



> Safety in the Market had also breached the law by claiming that users of its system would be able to trade profitably in financial products, based on a proven system.




So the proven system is working for you?

Could you also specify where people may be going wrong, or missing something?

Interested, because this may assist me in assessing other products or methods.

Regards,
            Vicki


----------



## professor_frink

> Could you expand on the statement: A system may suit one person and be profitable for them. Then for someone else be unprofitable.




For starters we are all different - different people will have different thought processes, certain areas we will have more skills than others, and vice versa. To the novice, who has no understanding of the market at all, the different ways of extracting a profit from the market will all seem to be pretty similar, but the reality is that a lot of them are so different that they wouldn't even be classed as the same sport.

The person who spends all day taking trades off the book and holding the position for a few minutes is playing a completely different sport to the accountant who bases investment decisions off of a company balance sheet and holds for years.

Someone who thrives off shorter term trading based on order flow and technicals and is successful at it, will most likely find that they won't get as much out of trying invest in a company based on an accounting valuation. If they try to do something that they have no interest in, then the drive to succeed at it will be lacking, leading to poor performance.

The basic jist of it all from a psychological perspective is that the early stages of getting into this game should be one of self discovery - finding the area that really interests you should be one of the primary goals.

In regards to buying a canned system from a vendor, this whole process of self discovery is missing. They are basically telling everyone who is looking for direction that they have the answers and all you have to do is spend lots of money buying their courses and competency will follow. Even if the course they are selling can turn a profit, you may find that it doesn't suit you in the slightest, and that you either lose interest, or worse, start fiddling to try and change bits and pieces of it to suit the way you want to be involved in the markets.


The other reason that people buying a canned system from a vendor may fail is that you need to "know" that a system works, and the way it operates in great detail for you to be able to follow it properly. If you go to a seminar for a course, do you think that the vendors of the system are going to give you a breakdown of every single signal that the system has taken over the past 20 years, and tell you how long you may spend in a large drawdown before you get to the point where you recover all your capital and start making money regularly again? Using safety in the market as an example, a lot of the stuff they are peddling is based on Gann, which is hugely alluring for the novice investor, despite the fact that you would have a hard time finding a trader working for any recognisable firm that subscribes to his "theories". 

One of the main features of anyone that peddles Gann is that they will claim that with enough training(and money spent on courses), you'll be able to predict what is going to happen in the market in advance with monotonous regularity. This kind of thinking really appeals to people who don't really know much about the markets, as they think that in order to be successful, you need to be able to predict what will happen more times than you don't. Add in the fact that most people succumb to the illusion of control, and have the need to be right in almost anything they do and you have a recipe for disaster!

The reality is that for the most part, the outcome of any given trade is essentially random, and over time you'll have just as many winners as losers. If you are learning based on the implication that you will be able to predict turning points with regularity, then dealing with the consecutive runs of losers that will inevitably happen when you are trying to profit off this random outcome is going to do untold damage to your faith in the methods that are taught. Unfortunately though, if this reality was the first thing that is taught to you, you are obviously going to have a fairly hard time justifying the 5 figure sum required to do all of the courses these guys are trying to get you to do, which means you aren't very likely to hear this from any educator that is charging this sort of money.

Hope that helps a bit


----------



## TeleSonic

Front page ASIC website....

"ASIC commences proceedings against 'safety in the market'....


----------



## DocK

Posts like this make me wish for a "like" button (or a tick, gold star, thumbs up etc...)  Excellent response Prof Frink,  & well made


----------



## captain black

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



Vicki said:


> I'm currently looking & trying to learn about different ways of trading.




Hi Vicki, just to add a little bit to Prof. Frink's excellent post above I'd recommend having a read through his thread linked below. It's a good example of the "groundwork" many traders put into developing a system and knowing intimately how it works/why it works and when it doesn't work. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20000


----------



## Vicki

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



captain black said:


> Hi Vicki, just to add a little bit to Prof. Frink's excellent post above I'd recommend having a read through his thread linked below. It's a good example of the "groundwork" many traders put into developing a system and knowing intimately how it works/why it works and when it doesn't work.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20000




Thanks cap.
I've been reading through that thread for the past  couple of hours!

I can see the prof. must really hold a 'doctrate' on the subject.
[great reading].

I'm going to dust-off some of my old books, & re-read some material to try & keep up with the thread.lol.

Thanks again guys.

                         Vicki


----------



## tech/a

> For starters we are all different - different people will have different thought processes, certain areas we will have more skills than others, and vice versa. To the novice, who has no understanding of the market at all, the different ways of extracting a profit from the market will all seem to be pretty similar, but the reality is that a lot of them are so different that they wouldn't even be classed as the same sport.




True

*BUT* all are attempting to skew their results to a profit.
Those who know how to do this can do it with any trading strategy they employ.---ANY---provided it isn't a flawed strategy.For those wishing to trade in a discretionary manner then this is imperative!

There is even with "some" educators a confusion of what a system is.
Many believe a system is simply a set of rules---and in reality often thats the case. To me at least thats not a system---its a set of ideas---at best a hypothesis.
The spin doctors can make any Hypothesis look un beatable using hind site.

Knowing HOW to evaluate design and trade a proven system---for those who wish to trade a system is imperative.


----------



## luke256

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



Vicki said:


> Could you expand on the statement: A system may suit one person and be profitable for them. Then for someone else be unprofitable.
> 
> So the proven system is working for you?




Hi Vicki,

The SITM ABC system i was taught is a trend following system that uses stop orders to enter and exit trades. So its not going to work well on stocks/contracts that are moving sideways for extended periods of time (no strong trend) or stocks that gap a lot (stops are not as effective).

So someone trading IAG would not do very well but someone else trading the EURO with the same mechanical rules may make excellant profits. I trade it on the forex markets and do well out of it. So if a person only wants to trade stocks that do not trend much they may lose money trading a trend following system like SITM ABC.

The system is very basic (which i like) and easy to learn, but i think it is the back testing over a long period of time that people fail to do. I test the signals on about 20 years of historical daily data to ensure it has worked consistantly before i trade with it on a particular market. That way i know what to expect i.e how many losses in a row, largest losses, win/loss ratio etc.  

I don't use the ABC trading on stocks as i find it works better on futures and forex. Over time i have adjusted the rules a little to suit each contract.


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## tech/a

*Re: Safety In The Market.*



luke256 said:


> Hi Vicki,
> 
> The SITM ABC system i was taught is a trend following system that uses stop orders to enter and exit trades. So its not going to work well on stocks/contracts that are moving sideways for extended periods of time (no strong trend) or stocks that gap a lot (stops are not as effective).
> 
> So someone trading IAG would not do very well but someone else trading the EURO with the same mechanical rules may make excellant profits. I trade it on the forex markets and do well out of it. So if a person only wants to trade stocks that do not trend much they may lose money trading a trend following system like SITM ABC.
> 
> *The system is very basic (which i like) and easy to learn, but i think it is the back testing over a long period of time that people fail to do. I test the signals on about 20 years of historical daily data to ensure it has worked consistantly before i trade with it on a particular market. That way i know what to expect i.e how many losses in a row, largest losses, win/loss ratio etc.  *
> 
> I don't use the ABC trading on stocks as i find it works better on futures and forex. Over time i have adjusted the rules a little to suit each contract.




Im interested in how you were able to code the ABC formula ---getting around Zig Zag and % correction.
*Ive not yet seen a formula *that can possibly test an ABC type setup.
If you have one and dont wish to make it public I would appreciate a copy by private message.

Id also be interested in your "Numbers".


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## luke256

I dont have any trading software other than the platfrom provided by my broker. I bought the courses back around 1999/2000 before the profit source software was part of the deal. I have heard profit source can help back test ABC signals but i don't have it so i can't say for sure.

I hand draw all my charts and manually test the signals off them. I set up the sitm trading plan sheet in excel to save time calculating % retracements and exit targets. But i still have to enter basic data into excel from the chart such as price of previous swing low and swing top etc.  

I have no idea how it would be coded into trading software and have never seen anyone do it.


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## tech/a

luke256 said:


> I hand draw all my charts and manually test the signals off them. I set up the sitm trading plan sheet in excel to save time calculating % retracements and exit targets. But i still have to enter basic data into excel from the chart such as price of previous swing low and swing top etc.
> 
> I have no idea how it would be coded into trading software and have never seen anyone do it.




So what are your numbers.
% win
Drawdown Peak to valley and initial
String of losses.
Number of trades Tested against.
Etc



> I test the signals on about 20 years of historical daily data to ensure it has worked consistantly before i trade with it on a particular market




If you manually place pivots (swing highs/lows) in excel you'd be still going!!


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## luke256

I'd say it takes about 10 hours to test a years worth of back data manually. Thats drawing daily and weekly bar charts and respective swing charts. Apply the signals and do calcs.

I dont enter all the swings into excel. 
Rough summary of my testing:
1. Draw charts
2. Look for the ABC pattern
3. Then enter the price of Point A., Point B. and the potential point C. So it only requires entering 3 figures. Then excel formula calculates the retracement between A and B. And can project a profit target from the point C. Only requires very basic formulas.  
4. Review results. Largest loss, profits, check if there is any benfit of compounding i.e buy more contracts as account increase etc.

I dont  have exact figures on hand but for the spi i'd say about 6 out of 10 win, the other 4 are combination of break even or loss. The profits on average are about twice the average loss. 3-4 losses in a row can occur. 
The average amount of win/loss can vary quite a bit between years as can the average profit so there just rough figures. Its been a while since i did the calc on the spi using pure ABC (i adjust the rules a bit to suit my trading style) but i think there was a 15% drawdown on one trade that gapped up massively over one of the public holidays in 1984/85 (although i think the volume was 2-3K back then so not that liquid). 15% is based on a 30k account, trading one contract.


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## KIRSTY88

Has anybody done SITM course recently?  I went to their introduction seminar a few years ago but did not sign up, but I went to another one just two nights ago and i signed up for $995 to do a 2 day course, but now I am kind of not sure to go ahead or have my money back?  Has anyone ever used this system/software?


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## joea

KIRSTY88 said:


> Has anybody done SITM course recently?  I went to their introduction seminar a few years ago but did not sign up, but I went to another one just two nights ago and i signed up for $995 to do a 2 day course, but now I am kind of not sure to go ahead or have my money back?  Has anyone ever used this system/software?




Hi.
If a two day course cost that much then you require a document of what you are going to learn.
Once you get that document get back to us and we will tell you what two books to buy to achieve the equivalent knowledge.
Send PM if you like.
joea


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## Garpal Gumnut

KIRSTY88 said:


> Has anybody done SITM course recently?  I went to their introduction seminar a few years ago but did not sign up, but I went to another one just two nights ago and i signed up for $995 to do a 2 day course, but now I am kind of not sure to go ahead or have my money back?  Has anyone ever used this system/software?






joea said:


> Hi.
> If a two day course cost that much then you require a document of what you are going to learn.
> Once you get that document get back to us and we will tell you what two books to buy to achieve the equivalent knowledge.
> Send PM if you like.
> joea




I'd agree with joea, K88.

There are cheaper ways than SITM and you maintain control.

gg


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## joea

luke256 said:


> I dont have any trading software other than the platfrom provided by my broker. I bought the courses back around 1999/2000 before the profit source software was part of the deal. I have heard profit source can help back test ABC signals but i don't have it so i can't say for sure.
> 
> I hand draw all my charts and manually test the signals off them. I set up the sitm trading plan sheet in excel to save time calculating % retracements and exit targets. But i still have to enter basic data into excel from the chart such as price of previous swing low and swing top etc.
> 
> I have no idea how it would be coded into trading software and have never seen anyone do it.




ProfitSource does ABC and 12345 waves. However if you purchase the software you probably require to complete a course called "TRADING kEY".
The graphs are 20 minutes delayed, but not intraday. Daily is the shortest time period.
Better software elsewhere I think. Read the forum.
Can send graphs of both wave if you like.
PS software has Fibonacci built into the (12345 waves) , so time and price are displayed.
joea


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## sails

Joea, unless things have changed, I understand that you HAVE to buy the data for profit source from SITM (or whoever the main company is) otherwise the software won't work.  That means big subs each year - at least that's how it used to be.

The other thing about SITM is that the two day is probably only the beginning of their courses.  There will likely be "secrets" only available in the "next" course and only costing another few thousand grand for each course.  I called it quits up after the video series on Time.  When I started the full number of courses added up to around $25,000 and inflation has probably taken that higher.

Optionetics and SITM used to be run by the same company and both courses same sort of deal with the initial courses just being the sucker ones.


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## joea

sails said:


> Joea, unless things have changed, I understand that you HAVE to buy the data for profit source from SITM (or whoever the main company is) otherwise the software won't work.  That means big subs each year - at least that's how it used to be.
> 
> The other thing about SITM is that the two day is probably only the beginning of their courses.  There will likely be "secrets" only available in the "next" course and only costing another few thousand grand for each course.  I called it quits up after the video series on Time.  When I started the full number of courses added up to around $25,000 and inflation has probably taken that higher.
> 
> Optionetics and SITM used to be run by the same company and both courses same sort of deal with the initial courses just being the sucker ones.




Correct. $685/year for ProfitSource charting with scanner and backtesting etc.
PS allows you to walkback through the charts and watch wave formation  etc.
I use it for Elliott wave, and because I have satellite broadband I can conserve useage.
You do not have to apply the Fibonnaci analysis on 12345 patterns. But manual analysis 
helps with confirmation if necessary.
All futures etc. are available.
PS suits me for now, but may not suit other people.
Incredible charts is supposed to be up grading to intraday charts shortly, but scanning is not brilliant, but would be a step better for people starting out. $220/year.
joea


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## Stumpy1

SpacemanSpoff said:


> Hi all, just have a few questions about various things related to Safety in the Market. Sorry if the questions are kinda dumb, I'm quite new to the stock market in general.
> 
> My first contact with SITM was from a friend of a friend who showed me how she trades every day using the SITM system and software. Having never actually seen one of these trading systems before it seemed kind of impressive, and she was obviously very happy with it, using it as one of her main sources of income. She recommended that I go to one of their free seminars to get more details - she also said that if I do sign up, only do the basic course, as the advanced courses were a waste of time in her opinion.
> 
> So recently I went to one of these seminars. All the self-promotion of Gann/Bowden and the testimonials got a bit tiresome, and it largely looked pretty dodgy to me - I could see more than a few parallels with Scientology  . BUT the actual 'ABC' swing thing looked like it could possibly work. After all I'd had one person seem to have it work for them, and another friend who attended a seminar said that it made sense to them, and would have tried it but they didn't sign up simply because they didn't have the time to put into it. Don't know if it's relevant, but both have worked for banks most of their lives.
> 
> Anyway, after asking the SITM people and confirming with them multiple times about their money-back guarantee, I - probably foolishly - decided to purchase it, planning to read through the book, then if it still seemed useless to me I'd just take it back and ask for a refund.
> 
> I've searched the internet for opinions of the company and the majority seem to think that it's either complete garbage or that it has a few good points, but they're definitely not worth the money when you can buy a few books or google them for free. So, at the moment I'm pretty sure I'll be taking it back (once I finish the book), although being able to attend as many basic seminars as you want and their 'trading tutor' support is still kinda keeping me hanging on. However, my questions are:
> 
> 1. Is there any validity at all to swing trading?
> 2. I've already seen the software the SITM system uses (called Swing Expert or something), and it seems quite good to me, but mainly because they've made it quite simple to download the data, create the charts, and pick out the 'ABCs' depending on your parameters. Would there be an alternative easy way (i.e. slightly cheaper software) to keep track of patterns like this?
> 
> Thanks all!



Hi doing training with them and called the top on N225 there stuff works if you take the time to learn it


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## investtrader

https://asic.gov.au/about-asic/news-centre/key-matters/safety-in-the-market/


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## AussieGannTrader

I have known Safety in the Market for many years, they are 100% legitimate.

I would be surprised if anyone who has actually dealt with them, let alone purchased their material would have anything negative to say about them.

That said, I am sure there are many copies of their material collecting dust on shelves of people who “wasted their money” or more accurately squandered the opportunity contained in the material.

What it is NOT:

It is not a scam
It is not a “get rich quick” system
It is not a Trading Signal / Entry – Exit service


What it is:

comprehensive technical analysis & trading education system, to give people a safe, reliable path to developing their own, profitable trading system based on Gann.
…a fair amount of study / hard work (at least 3 – 6 months+)
…very worthwhile, can produce serious income for people willing to apply themselves…

David is now retired, however they are still active and training.

All of David’s original material was “book based” (for those recall time even before “dial up”, that will make sense), they now have a lot of material in online webinars.

For anyone comfortable with concept, that….

Most people overestimate what they can do in a short time, and underestimate what can be achieved with some time, effort and persistence….

…then Safety in the Market is worth considering.

They basically have about 3 tiers of education / content.

I know a number of people who have made a good living based on the first tier.

That said, I would say, it is about 3 – 6 months of study and most importantly following through on the exercise, etc laid out in the material, to get to a point where you can trade profitably….

…once you are making money, it would be worth considering the next tier/s material. Nothing detracts from the 1st tier material which is great, however they build more complexity, detail and potentially profitability, however again more work / study, for those interested and willing to put the effort in.

They have email support for all students, as well as frequent live webinars.

Anyone who can pass high school math / English, and is willing to persist could go on to make living / attain significant wealth …provided they are willing to do the work.

I do NOT work for them, however I have been a student / customer for many years.

It would be the first place I would send anyone determined to make a serious income from trading....for anyone simply "interested", or looking for "bright and shiny" or "quick money", it may be too much challenge.

Anyone who wants to ask more questions is welcome to direct message me.

The person running it now, is called Di, she is very nice and easily contactable via their website, there zero “hard sell”.

…however it is a lot like my gym membership, paying for it alone does not do much, it takes a little effort to get results! lol


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