# Romancing the SPI



## oldorman (16 December 2012)

Hi all. 
I'm a new member. I've been actively trading spot forex for over 3 yrs with limited results. I think these results are a by product of my internal beliefs that Forex is a scam, not real, pretentious. I think the last straw was watching AUDUSD rally off a interest rate drop for the 1st time in my trading existence. It was probably the only constant that existed for me ie: price goes up or down with an interest rate decision that I've witnessed to be reliable.
As such and with all the tape bombs, spikes and constant manipulation I think I'm over it.
Very difficult to hold a position into another session and overnight. More so over a weekend. With weekend figures out of china, G20 meetings, Euro turmoil and the FED really making things tuff to stick to.
Now I'm not winging even though it may sound like it. I just don't have any more passion that I want to invest in Forex. Even the MT4 platform looks and feels plasticky.
Perhaps I'm digging a big hole here so I'll move forward. I've had a romantic notion of day trading the SPI ever since I read Brent Penfold's book a couple of years back.
I think the validity of a real contract on an exchange in our country with a sizeable tick value and a limited range movement during our day session is very appealing to me.
However I have been reading some of the Spi threads on the forum and it is sounding like the instrument is dying a slow and inglorious death with major players pulling out and liquidity taking a nose dive.
This saddens me as I was really wanting to have a red hot go at day trading. I've been playing with the synthetic version the AUS200 cash on the GFT platform and it looks ok on the surface. What I mean is on a 5min chart there are no gaps and constant movement excluding the open which looks ferocious.
I actually like the way it moves. However I don't really trust the synthetic version enough to get serious with it either beyond a mini contract. Can someone out there tell me it is ok up to a certain dollar value?
12 months back I  setup a IB account with a Ninja Trader platform through a 3rd party broker but I never got beyond the demo stage and pulled the plug on it.
What would be the premium way to trade the instrument with a modest $10K account to get started?
Is it still worthwhile? Will it only get worse ?
OH btw I was reading the Trader girl thread and it just died, was it real or fake in the end?
I likened the style to Marty Shwartz who wrote the book " Pit Bull ".
I could probably go on but I'll leave it there and I would really appreciate some honest feed back from all you experienced guys. Thanks.....


----------



## Pager (16 December 2012)

oldorman said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I have been reading some of the Spi threads on the forum and it is sounding like the instrument is dying a slow and inglorious death with major players pulling out and liquidity taking a nose dive....




As someone who has traded the Spi daily since 2003, that is the SFE contract at $25 a tick not all the other rubbish that some vendors provide these days this is new to me  if anything the Spi is more liquid but it does ebb and flow day to day with liquidity, you get quieter days and busier days if there’s a lot of volatility and uncertainty there’s a lot more activity, as to dying a slow death that’s got to be a joke,  just bring up a chart for the last 10 years and put volume on it, its about doubled since 2003.


----------



## oldorman (16 December 2012)

Pager said:


> As someone who has traded the Spi daily since 2003, that is the SFE contract at $25 a tick not all the other rubbish that some vendors provide these days this is new to me  if anything the Spi is more liquid but it does ebb and flow day to day with liquidity, you get quieter days and busier days if there’s a lot of volatility and uncertainty there’s a lot more activity, as to dying a slow death that’s got to be a joke,  just bring up a chart for the last 10 years and put volume on it, its about doubled since 2003.





That's what I want to hear. I'm only regurgitating what I'm reading in the Derivatives threads  Could you please advise: broker, datafeed, platform exclusive to the spi only. I know it trades under different names: AP is the instrument of the SFE I'm interested in. Platforms I've heard of Its, sycom webIress etc.
Basically which way to begin is what i need to know with minimum ongoing costs.
Halifax, Macquarie futures, IB etc.
I would like to begin in an environment of which I'm not going to want to change as soon as i find out there is better if that makes sense. I've done the yards with Forex brokers and don't want a repeat performance this time around.


----------



## prawn_86 (16 December 2012)

I hate reading blocks of unformatted text so i only got through the first paragraph, but i work in Forex and due to the sheer volume and liquidity i do not see how any-one can think it is a scam.

In fact it is probably the most 'perfect' (in the capitalistic economic defenition) market that mankind has.


----------



## Pager (16 December 2012)

oldorman said:


> That's what I want to hear. I'm only regurgitating what I'm reading in the Derivatives threads  Could you please advise: broker, datafeed, platform exclusive to the spi only. I know it trades under different names: AP is the instrument of the SFE I'm interested in. Platforms I've heard of Its, sycom webIress etc.
> Basically which way to begin is what i need to know with minimum ongoing costs.
> Halifax, Macquarie futures, IB etc.
> I would like to begin in an environment of which I'm not going to want to change as soon as i find out there is better if that makes sense. I've done the yards with Forex brokers and don't want a repeat performance this time around.




IB have everything you need, platform, good rates and data, just type in SPI and select the contract month, otherwise look at Macquarie.

As to Forex, I agree with prawn, there is no scam with forex, the only gripe maybe is the spread some providers put on and then claim its commission free trading, however maybe look at IB, they charge brokerage for there FX trades so the bid/offer you see is what the big institutions see.


----------



## oldorman (16 December 2012)

Yeah sorry I cut and pasted from word 2007 into the thread and it just didn't like it. As I mentioned I'm not getting into any spot Forex debates. Lack of transparency, no volume, no market depth. MT4- who knows what the broker is doing with your order or what plug in he is utilizing. Too many in consistencies with price across different platforms. Oh and my favorite not long ago was a MT5 server which locked up around 7.00pm and  the online support and broker number were synched to a UK one man help desk who said he had no access to MT5 servers at all, you'll have to wait for the morning. LOL
Hey I can't play like that no more........but each to their own maybe I'm getting too old and cynical.


Thanks Pager is their much difference in overhead costs between Macquarie and IB to your knowledege?


----------



## cbc1 (16 December 2012)

Hi m8,

If you go with GFT I think you will find you are trading a CFD!!!! CFD = general massive loss.  

A lot of these providers aren't actually connected to the ASX or other people on the market.  Its literaly you
VS GFT with GFT fixing the prices.... AND LET ME TELL YOU IT ISN'T TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!!!!

The main concern is the profit after the trade.   You will end up with more profit trading Derivatives on the ASX...
You will also be trading against other people on the market not against GFT which is all done internally.  

How to tell the difference?  Simple go to www.asx.com.au , go down the bottom of the page and under products go to Futures and options.  Click on Equity & Index options.  Click on Find a broker.... fill the details then voila
or this link http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/findABroker.do

after chosing one make sure that you GET TO CHOSE THE PRICE YOU ENTER INTO A CONTRACT. No fixed spreads.


Sorry to hear about FOREX.  Mbey you will find ur way on the SPX.


----------



## oldorman (16 December 2012)

Yeah thanks for the link  cbc1 however it's temporarily down but I'll make sure to check it out. Nothing to be sorry about no harm done and GFT is just one of my 4 brokerage accounts to check out all other tradeable instruments. Which i hope to eliminate the other 3 soon.

My wife and I also have a SMSF together which is sitting idle so its good to have access to live charts of all stocks for no cost apart from opening 1 trade a month. I also like their platform and free alerts etc.

My SMSF broker CMC markets chart's are terrible and I like to see more then just end of day data as a lot of hidden patterns form on smaller time frames that you would never know of if you just looked at EOD.


----------



## CanOz (16 December 2012)

If you're serious about being a SPI trader then get on YT and check out Guy Bower. His SPI vids are about the best intro to trading that contract as I've ever seen nowadays. To me, its sucks as a futs market, but then...what do i know...I'm only a sim wizard !

CanOz


----------



## cbc1 (16 December 2012)

Sorry M8,
I thought u meant options......  not futures,  the futures brokers are in the exact same spot on the asx website as the options... just directly beneath the Equity & Index options I mentioned above.  That link might not provide the right brokers.


----------



## oldorman (17 December 2012)

I spoke with a rep from Macquarie this morning. So we have a $10-12.50 trade commision each way. CQG trader platinum @ $380 per month for charts and feed to the SFE.

Other option is JTrader @ $55 per month and early next year they are releasing TTnet @ $80 per month.

I googled the above to take a look at the platforms. I couldn't afford CQG but Jtrader is not badly priced and the look of it seems ok. Anyone using any of the above and any opinions please ?

Does Ninja work well with the APZ1 contract ? I saw a thread mentioning you can't place stops in the platform is that through chart trader, the DOM or both ?

I've read IB is free data does that apply to APZ1 ?
I have some demo experience with NT so I don't mind paying for a license to trade of the chart if it integrates well.

Thanks for the links Canoz and CBC1 I'll need to learn about DOM reading. No experience in that department.


----------



## oldorman (17 December 2012)

Hmm my reply disappeared ?

I must have said something wrong, sorry and doesn't matter. The world doesn't like opinions of opposing views.
Thanks Canoz nice link to see live orders through the DOM.


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 December 2012)

oldorman said:


> Hi all.
> I'm a new member. I've been actively trading spot forex for over 3 yrs with limited results. I think these results are a by product of my internal beliefs that Forex is a scam, not real, pretentious. I think the last straw was watching AUDUSD rally off a interest rate drop for the 1st time in my trading existence. It was probably the only constant that existed for me ie: price goes up or down with an interest rate decision that I've witnessed to be reliable.
> As such and with all the tape bombs, spikes and constant manipulation I think I'm over it.




Why not have a look at 10 different instruments. And see what you like. You could easily waste another 3 years on the spi and still not make money.

here is even a wilder idea. Get data for lots of instruments and backtest/sim everything so you can actually see what works.

Just a crazy idea  



Pager said:


> if anything the Spi is more liquid but it does ebb and flow day to day with liquidity,
> 
> slow death that’s got to be a joke,  just bring up a chart for the last 10 years and put volume on it, its about doubled since 2003.




Pager yes its doing heaps more volume but unfortunately 90 % of its arb bots. 4 to 8 years ago most of the volume was from intraday traders as such it would flick around and run more min to min. Now it just churns a few ticks every 5 min. Thats fine if you can trade it but what I have found is if you stuff up the first 2 trades for the day mostly there is no more movement left to get back to flat let alone make money on the day.

The other thing working against the spi is thats its now sitting at 4500ish. When it was at 6000 or more 0.5% move was 30 ticks now 0.05% move is 22 ticks! When it was down at 4000 it pretty much cleaned out all the prop traders as it simply didn't move enough. I'm sure its trade-able just I reckon there is more bang for ya buck elsewhere.


----------



## oldorman (17 December 2012)

Hi Trembling hand thanks for your reply. 10 different instruments is what i'm trying to get away from, I think a candy shop is a bad idea for those that need to be on a strict protein diet.
I want to concentrate on 1 instrument only at the beginning and I find from the synthetic variant that the small range type movements of late actually suit my style however reading depth of market is another skill I need to learn and acquire.
Please advise appropriate platform for day trading. I'm a chartist first and foremost and I think I'll go the IB route but not sure on charting solution. My start up budget is moderate so I don't want to make a bad choice. Is Ninja worthwhile to pay the license on or stick to the charts in IB or other solution?

I'm also wanting to kick start my SMSF next year so I don't want to invest too much time in day trading more a set and forget method if my setups appear early after the open or do nothing and research stocks approach.

I have 2 very different models I want to work with each in their own environment


----------



## Trembling Hand (17 December 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Why not have a look at 10 different instruments. And see what you like. You could easily waste another 3 years on the spi and still not make money.






oldorman said:


> I'm also wanting to kick start my SMSF next year so I don't want to invest too much time in day trading




Carry on.......


----------



## RADO (23 December 2012)

Hi oldorman you are correct IB does give free quotes for the SPI futures contract @ $5 a trade or $10 round trip.
If you use Amibroker software you can get a data feed from IB to Amibroker via plugin which isnt to hard to set up.
 Sorry to hear about your misfortune with FX trading. FX is a very competitive market. The Brent Penfold book is very 
good especially when it comes to money management. Have you tested your trading system? does it achive positive expectancy?


----------



## oldorman (23 December 2012)

Hi RADO,

Does Amibroker trade of charts, feature a Dom or is it simply just charting? I know Ninja is free with a IB plugin but as only charts no trading off the platform unless you purchase a license.

Trading system ? Well I have a methodology that is quite simply S&R trading.
As trading is really more about psych then anything else, the time spent back testing never really counted for much with me.

I believe if you just take the best setups and not intervene for no reason you will be ok.
But then again I know nothing about the DOM and the order flow of the real contract so it will be a whole new learning curve once again.

FX just did my head in, too many pairs, 24H and hard to not constantly be paying attention too. Again its the psych, I just had enough .


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 December 2012)

Sigh...

Just go with IB, minimum $10K USD to open an account, then get Ninjatrader and use that for charting, IB has their own DOM so bring that up alongside your chart and wallah, problem solvered. 

Amibroker is a waste of time unless you want to develop more systematic style of trading, but it's just charting, well technically it isn't, I think they've released something where you can trade off the chart now, but Ninjatrader is about 1000x easier and cleaner, plus it has the stats you can get from your trading(which you will need the live version for, but its only around 60 bucks a month or so I think). 

You get your free sim account when you open an IB account, so I'd say use that via Ninjatrader and have a go first before risking real $$.


----------



## kid hustlr (23 December 2012)

Whilst we are talking about the SPI.

I'm super confused with the volume numbers I'm looking at.





Picture below is the SPI for the day session (9.50-4.30). Obviously the volume spikes are when the contracts roll but the numbers I'm seeing seem to be A LOT different to the numbers the the ASX gives below in regards to volume traded. They have some 300k volume days and the chart I have doesn't have a day over 100k....

http://www.sfe.com.au/content/prices/rtp15sfAP.html

Am I missing something? Nightly volume? other SPI contracts?


----------



## oldorman (23 December 2012)

Cheers Sam, yeah pretty much the way I'm thinking too.


----------



## CanOz (23 December 2012)

kid hustlr said:


> Whilst we are talking about the SPI.
> 
> I'm super confused with the volume numbers I'm looking at.
> 
> ...




Yeah Kid, i think its the Sycom session volume your missing.

NinjaTrader...who's data is that?


----------



## kid hustlr (24 December 2012)

CanOz said:


> Yeah Kid, i think its the Sycom session volume your missing.
> 
> NinjaTrader...who's data is that?




That's IB data.

Any ideas Can?


----------



## RADO (24 December 2012)

oldorman said:


> Hi RADO,
> 
> Does Amibroker trade of charts, feature a Dom or is it simply just charting? I know Ninja is free with a IB plugin but as only charts no trading off the platform unless you purchase a license.
> 
> ...




No I dont think Amibroker has DOM built in. But you can trade off the chart, I never have because I havent set up that feature. For DOM and placing trades I just use IB's TWS (trader work station). For amibroker Im actually getting my data from esignal which is pretty expensive but really reliable. And I guess its also a backup charting solution for me. Ninja trader is pretty good and a cheaper option. But Amibroker is way better IMO, one of the best charting programs money can buy.


----------



## baby_swallow (1 February 2013)

I only noticed this thread lately...I hope am not too late to reply..

Just to add my 2 cents....

SPI is one of the instruments I trade and I fully agree with TH (see previous post) that although the volume has doubled recently, its actually dominated by trading bots. 
It is dangerous to trade SPI when the US markets volatility is low, especially during Dec-Jan (ie: when big investors  are on holidays). When there is no volatility (or NYSE volume), the SPI is prone to manipulation, (so is the XJO).

It would be "heartbreaking" for a new trader to start "romancing" the SPI if he/she doesn't have an idea why/what causing it to behave like that. Best way is to observe the LIVE price action and paper trade it until you gain confidence.


----------



## kid hustlr (14 February 2013)

Just to follow up on the volume issue.

I'm still not getting the same volume data between Interactive Brokers and what the daily trading report says. I've emailed the ASX to ask so we'll see what they say but I'm not holding my breathe.

Example of what I'm talking about below.


----------

