# Food scarcity



## fergee (9 February 2020)

An average human being can go 3minutes without air, 3 hours in extreme weather conditions with out shelter, 3 days with out water and 3 weeks with out food.

This thread is for anecdotal and scientific measures of food scarcity and food price inflation.

With an exponentially increasing global population, pollution, climate change, tariffs/subsidies and disease threatening our global food production supply chain I see this as a major risk both economically and socially and as such I think it deserves to monitored.

In China we have recently seen the mass culling of swine due to disease and the outbreak of avian flu. America is experiencing a potato shortage due to extreme cold weather. Africa and the middle east are plagued with locusts and Australian farmers are battling drought and bush fires. 

Certain countries are using trade deals to "dump" food products on countries and effectively destroying local business and industries that cant compete. For example EU/China tomato production and its effect on Ghana.or the EU subsidising milk producers and then undercutting Aus and NZ farmers.

For future reference: I am starting this thread in the middle of the Corona virus epidemic 09/02/2020.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 February 2020)

What a good thread @fergee to start. 

I am dusting off an old bush tucker book and making amends to the owner of the local fish and chip shop who I unwisely insulted for closing early due to lack of customers some weeks ago.

gg


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## Sdajii (9 February 2020)

People have more food available to them than ever before. I don't think we're going to see any seriously dramatic issues due to things like milk subsidies; if dairy companies are outcompeted and go down, those businesses may suffer and certain countries may take an economic hit of some small relevance, but people don't need milk, they can just consume something else or buy their dairy products from the other company.

When pigs are regionally slaughtered due to diseases concerns, prices will generally be tempered by associated drop in demand for pork, but if there is an imbalance either the demand reduction will exceed the culls resulting in cheap pork for a while, or demand reduction won't exceed it, meaning people sufficiently keen to eat pork will pay a little more and everyone else will eat chicken and fish for a while. It's really not that big a deal.

The **** will hit the fan when an actual serious disaster means there isn't enough food to feed everyone. That will occur, but probably not in a gradual way. We are still in a situation where significantly more food is produced than required, meaning that a significant percentage is wasted, largely due to indifference (why bother trying to sell the least pretty 20% of the crop when no one will buy it? Just dump it. Why bother eating leftovers from 2 days ago when we can just get something fresh?).

Food will probably become more expensive as the spare capacity is reduced, and at some stage, some actually significant issue will disrupt food production or distribution. A freak weather event stopping the monsoon season from happening in Asia, an all out war stopping distribution networks, a major state carrying out an attack on production and/or distribution, and then things will get interesting. Alternatively, if some major event wipes out a significant percentage of the world's human population, the food shortage may never happen.


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## Dona Ferentes (9 February 2020)

a bit of absolutist certainty here, but I reckon a functioning market economy does a lot better than centrally planned one, both in the basics (provision of food) and higher up the scale of achievement and happiness.


> ''_*No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy,'' Amartya Sen wrote in ''Democracy as Freedom''*_ (Anchor, 1999).





> This, he explained, is because democratic governments ''have to win elections and face public criticism, and have strong incentive to undertake measures to avert famines and other catastrophes.'' This proposition, advanced in a host of books and articles, has shaped the thinking of a generation of policy makers, scholars and relief workers who deal with famine.



https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert-famine.html


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## Value Collector (9 February 2020)

fergee said:


> An average human being can go 3minutes without air, 3 hours in extreme weather conditions with out shelter, 3 days with out water and 3 weeks with out food.
> 
> This thread is for anecdotal and scientific measures of food scarcity and food price inflation.
> 
> ...




As long as we have 70 Billion animals in factory farms being fed a large portion of the worlds crops I don’t think we can claim there is a food shortage. 

I mean feeding one person bacon, requires the amount of crops used to feed up to 10 people corn flakes.

So if there is any “shortage”, it’s because we are feeding crops to chickens, pigs, cows etc in factory farms.


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## Johny5 (9 February 2020)

Soylent Green is the answer


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## SirRumpole (9 February 2020)

The amount of food that supermarkets throw out as waste is mind boggling.

Maybe more attention should be given to preserving foods better. Frozen vegs are just as good as fresh and they last longer for example.


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## Dona Ferentes (9 February 2020)

Johny5 said:


> Soylent Green is the answer



Was there a question?


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## Johny5 (9 February 2020)

Just kidding, Soylent Green is a Science fiction film where they euthanise people and process them into a food called Soylent Green, so it was the answer to the worlds food shortages. Sorry I know not in very good taste, but I couldn't resist.


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## basilio (9 February 2020)

I think we feel a bit smug in our first world environments and seemingly able to buy whatever food we need.
I suggest droughts, floods and extreme CC weather events could challenge these tidy assumptions. Not to mention swine flu knocking off  the worlds pork supply.

Having said that at the moment world food stocks are in an overall healthy position.
http://www.fao.org/worldfoodsituation/csdb/en/


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## Value Collector (10 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The amount of food that supermarkets throw out as waste is mind boggling.
> 
> Maybe more attention should be given to preserving foods better. Frozen vegs are just as good as fresh and they last longer for example.




Yes.

Even a decent chunk of the food that makes it into our homes and restaurants gets wasted, either expires before it’s cooked, or gets scrapped of the plate half eaten.


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## Value Collector (10 February 2020)

fergee said:


> An average human being can go 3minutes without air, 3 hours in extreme weather conditions with out shelter, 3 days with out water and 3 weeks with out food.
> 
> This thread is for anecdotal and scientific measures of food scarcity and food price inflation.
> 
> ...




Soy beans are one of the main food crops grown.

But, Did you know that only 6% of Soy beans grown are eaten by Humans? The Majority are fed to animals, add to that the Corn, rice and other crops fed to animals and you can see that we don’t have a shortage of crop land, we are just wasting the crops we grow feeding animals.


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## basilio (10 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Soy beans are one of the main food crops grown.
> 
> But, Did you know that only 6% of Soy beans grown are eaten by Humans? The Majority are fed to animals, add to that the Corn, rice and other crops fed to animals and you can see that we don’t have a shortage of crop land, we are just wasting the crops we grow feeding animals.




That is really significant isn't it ? Certainly opens the conversation about the effects of our diet on land use and pressure on resources.


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## Sdajii (10 February 2020)

There are some really good points made in this thread. We may have widespread famine one day, but probably not for a long time. If things get at all tricky we have so many ways to make things more efficient, most obviously by eating all the food we produce rather than throwing a large percentage of it away.

I spend a lot of time in Asia, it's interesting when you're in a small town in Asia you often eat almost exclusively local food, often all produced in that province and much of it within a day's commute, but in my hometown of Melbourne it's common to have meals made of little if any food produced within Victoria, with the ingredients coming from multiple continents. Even a lot of unprocessed foods are imported from outside Australia.


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## SirRumpole (10 February 2020)

basilio said:


> That is really significant isn't it ? Certainly opens the conversation about the effects of our diet on land use and pressure on resources.




It all comes down to the number of people we have to feed though doesn't it ?

More people, more animals to feed them, more crops to feed the animals, more land clearing to graze the herds and plant the crops more environmental degradation.

There has to be a carrying capacity of any land area given its rainfall, soil type and suitability but no one seems to have studied this issue in depth, or if they have it's been swept under the carpet.


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## Value Collector (10 February 2020)

basilio said:


> That is really significant isn't it ? Certainly opens the conversation about the effects of our diet on land use and pressure on resources.




Check out this short 56 second video to see the difference in land use needed to support a plant based diet vs Vegetarian with dairy and eggs vs meat eating omnivore


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## Sdajii (11 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this short 56 second video to see the difference in land use needed to support a plant based diet vs Vegetarian with dairy and eggs vs meat eating omnivore





These figures are false. The vego folks use the most efficient forms of plant-based food land and water use and compare them to the least efficient forms of meat production. If we were to use the same style of cherry picking but in the favour of meat, we could actually 'prove' with equal validity that eating meat is more environmentally friendly.

Just as some examples, we can either harvest fish from the ocean or not. Fish are there either way. People who hunt wild game are also using a resource which is there and can either be utilised or not. Even beef, the poster child of environmentalism, think about the fact that the majority of beef produced in Australia is farmed in the arid areas on which it is impossible to grow any plant crops. We can either use that land to produce beef (or we could farm kangaroos or camels or goats or other animals which do well in arid environments) or we can leave it to go completely unused. If we were to compare these to the most intensive forms of plant-based food production, or the least efficient, we would be able to say that eating meat is the environmentally responsible option.

Of course, in reality, there are good and bad forms of both and it's not as simple as one entire category being good and the other bad. Without a doubt, the most efficient way to feed the world is not veganism. It is the most efficient forms of meat and plant production combined. It's sure as heck not these ultra processed, heavily packaged, unhealthy, vegan meat substitute nonsense foods the virtue signalers claim taste better than garbage.

A far more genuine approach to efficient food choices would be to avoid processed and high mileage foods.


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## Value Collector (11 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> These figures are false. The vego folks use the most efficient forms of plant-based food land and water use and compare them to the least efficient forms of meat production. If we were to use the same style of cherry picking but in the favour of meat, we could actually 'prove' with equal validity that eating meat is more environmentally friendly.
> 
> Just as some examples, we can either harvest fish from the ocean or not. Fish are there either way. People who hunt wild game are also using a resource which is there and can either be utilised or not. Even beef, the poster child of environmentalism, think about the fact that the majority of beef produced in Australia is farmed in the arid areas on which it is impossible to grow any plant crops. We can either use that land to produce beef (or we could farm kangaroos or camels or goats or other animals which do well in arid environments) or we can leave it to go completely unused. If we were to compare these to the most intensive forms of plant-based food production, or the least efficient, we would be able to say that eating meat is the environmentally responsible option.
> 
> ...




please show me the facts about how farming soybeans to feed to cattle and pigs is more efficient than using that same farmland to grow soybeans for tofu and other human foods.

do a bit of research to find out how much amazon rainforest is being cleared to grow soybeans and other crops to feed cattle.

do you really think the majority of steaks, bacon and chicken are coming from wild game? or that it would be even possible to feed the world from wild game cost effectively.

and as for wild caught fish, well we already know that the oceans are struggling at their limit, we can’t really double the fish we take.


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## fergee (11 February 2020)

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualising-the-greenhouse-gas-impact-of-each-food/


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## Value Collector (11 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> the majority of beef produced in Australia is farmed in the arid areas on which it is impossible to grow any plant crops. We can either use that land to produce beef (or we could farm kangaroos or camels or goats or other animals which do well in arid environments) or we can leave it to go completely unused.




firstly you are ignoring the fact that cattle farmed in arid areas still normally spend the last 6 months of their life being fattened up in feed lots where they eat grain and soybeans.

secondly, allowing the marginal areas to return to nature would actually be a good thing, as we wouldn’t need as much farm land.

Also, if there is enough water for a heard of cattle to eat and drink, then you have more than enough water to run modern protected cropping such as this,


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## fergee (11 February 2020)

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/10/economy/china-food-prices-coronavirus-pork/index.html   Chinas CPI up 5.4% in January


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## Sdajii (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> please show me the facts about how farming soybeans to feed to cattle and pigs is more efficient than using that same farmland to grow soybeans for tofu and other human foods.
> 
> do a bit of research to find out how much amazon rainforest is being cleared to grow soybeans and other crops to feed cattle.
> 
> ...




Amazing. You fight being pulled up for cherry picking by cherry picking. Great job, mate.


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## Sdajii (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> firstly you are ignoring the fact that cattle farmed in arid areas still normally spend the last 6 months of their life being fattened up in feed lots where they eat grain and soybeans.
> 
> secondly, allowing the marginal areas to return to nature would actually be a good thing, as we wouldn’t need as much farm land.
> 
> Also, if there is enough water for a heard of cattle to eat and drink, then you have more than enough water to run modern protected cropping such as this,





You have clearly never been to a central Australian cattle station. That is, the type of station where the majority of Australia's beef comes from. That type of land absolutely can not be used to farm any plant crop. There are so many factors making plant crops impossible there.

It is true that a lot of cattle raised on land unusable for anything else ends up being fattened up before slaughter, but this still doesn't make them equivalent to the figures being used, and by no means holds any water with the 'veganism is efficient' argument, since it would be perfectly feasible to farm something like goats or kangaroos on that land without any fattening up. You are ignoring the fact that with extremely little input, a large amount of meat can be produced on land which can not be used to grow plants. Sure, we don't always do it efficiently (with plants either, mind you - do you think those ultra processed plant-based foods are made as efficiently as they could be?) but it absolutely is possible.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Amazing. You fight being pulled up for cherry picking by cherry picking. Great job, mate.




cherry picking???

dude, 80% of Beef sold in Australian super markets comes from feedlots, 100% of chicken and 100% of pigs also are raised in feedlots.

It’s actually you missing the point, if we weren’t feeding all those animals crops, we wouldn’t need to farm the marginal land and it could be returned to nature.

And as I said, if you really really really want to use marginal land for some reason, you could using protected cropping.


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## Johny5 (12 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> I spend a lot of time in Asia, it's interesting when you're in a small town in Asia you often eat almost exclusively local food, often all produced in that province and much of it within a day's commute




Reminds me of a time when I was staying in Northern Thailand, went to a tiny village restaurant where they had goodness knows what on the menu. After I left, I noticed a bit of a commotion coming from the bush, it was a few boys that had just trapped a small bird, I'm sure it was on the menu that evening ;-) Nothing goes to waste in these parts of Asia.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 February 2020)

From The Times of London today.

_British farmers hit back at veganism yesterday as they showcased research that suggests eating tofu is worse for the planet than consuming most meats.

At a conference in London, the National Farmers Union (NFU) presented academics and scientists who argued that a meat-free diet could be unhealthy, create more emissions and damage the ecosystem.

One of the speakers, Graham McAuliffe, of the Rothamsted Institute, talked about unpublished work that suggests tofu, a protein substitute made from soy milk, has a worse impact on global warming than lamb, pork and chicken._

I don't mind carnivore or vegetarian food. I cannot cook. I usually wash up and am an entertaining dinner guest._
_
gg


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## SirRumpole (12 February 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> From The Times of London today.
> 
> _British farmers hit back at veganism yesterday as they showcased research that suggests eating tofu is worse for the planet than consuming most meats.
> 
> ...




Talking about an unpublished work is no more than spreading rumours. It's pretty underhand really.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Talking about an unpublished work is no more than spreading rumours. It's pretty underhand really.




Especially as they ain't "woke" I suppose. 

gg


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## Value Collector (13 February 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Especially as they ain't "woke" I suppose.
> 
> gg




If you believe the meat producers lobbyists unpublished research, you probably also believed big Tobaccos lobbyists back in the day.

Hey, I heard 7 out of 10 Doctors smoke camel brand cigarettes, it must mean they are healthy right???


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If you believe the meat producers lobbyists unpublished research, you probably also believed big Tobaccos lobbyists back in the day.
> 
> Hey, I heard 7 out of 10 Doctors smoke camel brand cigarettes, it must mean they are healthy right???



I'll leave this conversation to you, I'm not that invested in it other than to make the odd observation or remark. Neither side would make me break stride to cross the road in their defence.

I do enjoy vegan and carnivore food. Whether the UK Farmer's Union is correct or not you and others can argue in the slow cooker of debate. 

It was published in a paper of record, and I quoted it. Google it for the original article but it's behind a firewall. 

gg


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## Sdajii (13 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> cherry picking???
> 
> dude, 80% of Beef sold in Australian super markets comes from feedlots, 100% of chicken and 100% of pigs also are raised in feedlots.
> 
> ...




Deep breaths, mate. You're arguing against points I only made in your own imagination.

I said the figures were false because they are. In your imagination it seems I claimed something like meat on average being as efficient to produce as plants. I didn't make that claim in the real world. If you must argue with your imaginary Sdaji, please do so only in your imagination.


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## Sdajii (13 February 2020)

Johny5 said:


> Reminds me of a time when I was staying in Northern Thailand, went to a tiny village restaurant where they had goodness knows what on the menu. After I left, I noticed a bit of a commotion coming from the bush, it was a few boys that had just trapped a small bird, I'm sure it was on the menu that evening ;-) Nothing goes to waste in these parts of Asia.




Even in northern Thailand they talk about how people in east Thailand and Laos are crazy and eat anything. In east Thailand and Laos, like everywhere else I've been, I try to find as many new foods as possible and have never found anything I wouldn't eat, however, in east Thailand and Laos (and many other places) I've grossed out and surprised locals when they see me eating things they won't. They do waste some food.


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## Smurf1976 (13 February 2020)

Pity we can't just use any form of energy to run humans.

If we could be electrically powered then it would be less than a 10% increase in power consumption.

Or if we used petrol then just one litre contains enough energy to run an adult human for 4 days.

Not that I recommend connecting yourself to mains electricity or drinking petrol indeed both are sure to kill you.


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## Value Collector (13 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> I said the figures were false because they are. In your imagination it seems I claimed something like meat on average being as efficient to produce as plants. I didn't make that claim in the real world. If you must argue with your imaginary Sdaji, please do so only in your imagination.




The figures aren’t false though, when you look at the reality of 80% of the meat Australians consume coming from feed lots.

the figures are only false compared to your imaginary meat production that doesn’t involve feedlots.

when your imaginary kangaroo and wombat farming system in up and running let me know.


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## Johny5 (13 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> They do waste some food.



I wonder if that is because of religious beliefs.
Another Thai story : I was at at Expats house watching an Australian wildlife documentary, his wife (from Isan region) was watching very intently, when the doco was showing the unusual features of the Platypus she turned to us and said "What do they taste like"


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## Sdajii (13 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The figures aren’t false though, when you look at the reality of 80% of the meat Australians consume coming from feed lots.
> 
> the figures are only false compared to your imaginary meat production that doesn’t involve feedlots.
> 
> when your imaginary kangaroo and wombat farming system in up and running let me know.




The figures are false in that they are based on cherry-picked examples. Yes, on average, plant calories given to humans take less resources than meat calories, but the figures given are an exaggeration of that figure, and further, there is a false implication that all plant calories are better than all meat calories, which is not at all the case.

I never mentioned wombats, and while I do that that farming kangaroos would be extremely efficient, I understand the difference between hypothetical and imaginary, and unlike you haven't confused them with each other, or with reality.


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## Sdajii (13 February 2020)

Johny5 said:


> I wonder if that is because of religious beliefs.
> Another Thai story : I was at at Expats house watching an Australian wildlife documentary, his wife (from Isan region) was watching very intently, when the doco was showing the unusual features of the Platypus she turned to us and said "What do they taste like"




Not to do with religious beliefs in most cases; mostly due to apathy, squeamishness or incorrect assumption of inedibility (much the same as with western people and most others). As an example, when we were emptying the insect traps in Laos I was wanting to eat a lot of the insects they were throwing away or feeding to the chickens. For some reason they thought some of the safe ones were poisonous, and they just didn't seem interested in eating some of the others, or they were squeamish about them. After a few days they didn't try to stop me eating the ones I wanted to. I found in some provinces people happily ate some types which in other areas they wouldn't touch. I've almost never seen anyone in these regions get the marrow out of bones, even though in other parts of the world it is a normal practice, and indeed marrow is the most nutritious part of an animal. Even things like highly nutritious fish skin of some of the most commonly eaten species is commonly discarded in places like north and east Thailand and Laos, and they think I'm strange for wanting to eat it. Western people are particularly squeamish and limited in their ability to recognise what it edible so they often make the mistake of thinking these people will eat anything, but it's just that they eat a lot more than western people do. There's nothing religious about not eating fish skin, various insects, marrow, etc etc. Some of them will avoid eating things like elephant etc. for quasi religious reasons. Things like cat and turtle are avoided by some for quasi religious reasons but most of them in the most food-adventurous regions I've hung out in will eat these things, though they'll often initially deny it to foreigners and only admit to it after they know the foreigner is happy to eat them too. In northern Laos I asked a room full of people aged between about 8 and 50 if they'd eaten cat. They all said no. I pretended to believe them and started talking about how delicious cat was and told stories about how I'd eaten cat in various situations, including in a nearby village when someone's wife cooked it and served it to me as a practical joke, telling me it was pork. I recognised the flavour and said it was cat, they were surprised I knew and didn't care. After telling that story a few people in the room admitted to it and we started talking about how good it was etc etc, and shortly afterwards everyone in the room admitted they'd eaten it.

Pretty funny she'd ask what platypus tastes like! I wouldn't kill one to eat it and I probably will never taste platypus, but in the absolute freak event that I saw one get killed by a falling tree branch or something, I'd definitely cook it up!


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## Johny5 (13 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Pretty funny she'd ask what platypus tastes like! I wouldn't kill one to eat it and I probably will never taste platypus, but in the absolute freak event that I saw one get killed by a falling tree branch or something, I'd definitely cook it up!




I think it may have been because the Platypus was the most different looking (and unknown) creature in the doco, they had Kangaroos, Koalas etc. but many Thais already know about them.

Their are a myriad of reasons for eating or not eating certain types of foods, as you have explained, a couple of other reasons are for luck, as medicine or even as an aphrodisiac. Each to their own I suppose


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## Sdajii (13 February 2020)

Johny5 said:


> I think it may have been because the Platypus was the most different looking (and unknown) creature in the doco, they had Kangaroos, Koalas etc. but many Thais already know about them.
> 
> Their are a myriad of reasons for eating or not eating certain types of foods, as you have explained, a couple of other reasons are for luck, as medicine or even as an aphrodisiac. Each to their own I suppose




Yeah, a belief in karma is part of it. Some South East Asians have told me that we should never kill animals, so I shouldn't eat things like cats and turtles and elephants. When I point out that they have already eaten duck, chicken, pork etc with me, they say things like 'the gods gave us these animals to be eaten' (about as irrational as western people saying much the same thing when comparing, say, pigs and dogs). I am very fond of snakes and they often tell me it's especially important for me never to eat snakes as this would be bad karma. I'm actually pretty fond of chickens though, I mean, they're really quite comical birds and they can be quite friendly and get very attached to people. I've hand raised them and had them really quite attached to me, but hey, they were unfortunate enough to have been given to us from a divine source to be eaten, right? Not as unfortunate enough as the super rare ones which get hunted to extinction because their horns or scales or penis or whatever is a *totally genuine and effective* remedy for impotence in wealthy Chinese men, I suppose. 

For the record, as much as I've never met anyone who can eat a wider array of food than I can and I've only met 3 others who can approximately match it (all Australians, surprisingly, and this is despite the fact that the majority of people I meet are not Australian), I draw the line at anything endangered and deliberately killed, or anything which crosses my ethical line in terms of cruelty.

I haven't eaten koalas but I'd gladly eat them from one of the pest populations. I expect they'd taste fantastic. No idea what platypus would taste like! Most likely I'll never eat either, but if I see the car in front of me send a koala to Heaven I'll gladly take the opportunity.


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## fergee (14 February 2020)




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## fergee (14 February 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green
"Once the data from all 153 vegans, vegetarians and omnivores in the study was taken into account, however, it showed that eating meat was on average worse for the environment."


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## moXJO (16 February 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Even in northern Thailand they talk about how people in east Thailand and Laos are crazy and eat anything. In east Thailand and Laos, like everywhere else I've been, I try to find as many new foods as possible and have never found anything I wouldn't eat, however, in east Thailand and Laos (and many other places) I've grossed out and surprised locals when they see me eating things they won't. They do waste some food.



Thais can eat though. Never seen anything like it.


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## moXJO (16 February 2020)

Johny5 said:


> I wonder if that is because of religious beliefs.
> Another Thai story : I was at at Expats house watching an Australian wildlife documentary, his wife (from Isan region) was watching very intently, when the doco was showing the unusual features of the Platypus she turned to us and said "What do they taste like"



Don't they still eat dog?
I know must Thais won't.


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## moXJO (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this short 56 second video to see the difference in land use needed to support a plant based diet vs Vegetarian with dairy and eggs vs meat eating omnivore




These figures are not right.


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## qldfrog (16 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> These figures are not right.



Do not destroy a feel good idea with figures.what next repeat after me
-Eating meat is bad
-Co2 is evil and cooking the planet
-I drive an EV so produce less co2 than you ugly ICE destroyers and i am green
And you can usually add 
white middle age heterosexual are evil, only the babies are cute in picture
Ranch land here, in the US are  of great effiiency in term of food production, better than the palm oil farms of ex Borneo or the soy beans of ex Amazonia, and no you can't grow wheat or corn there
But you can always tweak your numbers and fit the dream:
Feed premium grain to off land beef in feedlots and yes, it is abysmal.
But that is not the real world.
Eat good food,and not processed ****.
The later including fake meat...


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> These figures are not right.



Are you saying that because you have evidence to the contrary, or just because you are assuming that it’s not right?


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## moXJO (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Are you saying that because you have evidence to the contrary, or just because you are assuming that it’s not right?



This isn't the original of why I thought it was wrong I had a previous page where a farmer with decades of experience had broken down the veg vs meat debate.

But to debunk cowspiracy this link is decent enough.


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## Sdajii (16 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Don't they still eat dog?
> I know must Thais won't.




There are four regions in Thailand, different languages, cultures, races. The Thai people (in the central region including Bangkok) don't eat dog, and I believe in the south they won't either. I'm not sure about the north. In the east they won't openly admit to it with people they're not close to, but most will eat it. If memory serves me it was only about 2 or 3 years ago that Thailand banned dog meat farms. It still goes in but now that it's illegal they're not so open about it.

Not sure who 'they' was referring to in your post. Vietnamese and Chinese are most well known for eating dogs. Dog is a common food in Vietnam (in the north where they're rather xenophobic and racist including to southern Vietnamese they sometimes refuse to sell it to non locals, but they have boiled dogs openly on display), in northern Laos I've seen it openly sold at markets, but in the capital of Laos it's rare and when a restaurants is open about it the western expat community gets angry and insists on demanding the locals change their culture, and when I've pointed out that they're the foreigners and shouldn't be shoving western culture down Asians' throats especially while eating pigs, they are also furious at me.

I haven't been to China where they supposedly boil dogs alive, but if that story is true it's pretty messed up and I actually would think it crosses the line requiring foreigners to say something.


----------



## Sdajii (16 February 2020)

fergee said:


> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green
> "Once the data from all 153 vegans, vegetarians and omnivores in the study was taken into account, however, it showed that eating meat was on average worse for the environment."




"On average" is the key line here. Just because most forms of meat production are environmentally worse than most plant-based food production doesn't mean that the forms of meat production which are less environmentally destructive are also more destructive. The focus, if anything, should be selecting food production which is as efficient as possible, rather than lumping everything into two categories, taking the average of each, and then dumping one entire category. That lunacy is the vegan environmental argument!


----------



## fergee (27 February 2020)

International shipping is down drastically, supply chains are failing and food is sitting at ports worldwide waiting for customs clearance. To make matters worse some places in the world are seeing the hoarding of food and other necessities. 

Even though there is an abundance of food in the world our interdependence on other countries through specialisation, trade and globalisation is now proving to be very fragile system indeed.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2020)

fergee said:


> International shipping is down drastically, supply chains are failing and food is sitting at ports worldwide waiting for customs clearance. To make matters worse some places in the world are seeing the hoarding of food and other necessities.
> 
> Even though there is an abundance of food in the world our interdependence on other countries through specialisation, trade and globalisation is now proving to be very fragile system indeed.



The shipping (or lack of) is a real concern. Something I am concerned about.


----------



## fergee (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> The shipping (or lack of) is a real concern. Something I am concerned about.




NZ and Aussie both have more than enough capacity to independently cover their respected populations calorific needs. 

But the lack of shipping export wise will make a big dent in their economies short to medium term GDP and potentially cause some over leveraged farmers to go under. 

The up side is food may get cheaper as the international market can't be tapped so the domestic market will be flooded with cheaper produce right at a time they may be having their budgets stretched.


----------



## tinhat (28 February 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What a good thread @fergee to start.
> 
> I am dusting off an old bush tucker book and making amends to the owner of the local fish and chip shop who I unwisely insulted for closing early due to lack of customers some weeks ago.
> 
> gg



I'm waiting for your post on bespoke gin distilling.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

fergee said:


> The up side is food may get cheaper as the international market can't be tapped so the domestic market will be flooded with cheaper produce right at a time they may be having their budgets stretched.



Anyone for crayfish?


----------



## qldfrog (28 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Anyone for crayfish?



Last time i check i could only buy Canadian lobsters..
The Aussie one was too expensive, the permit lease alone was at 65 or 80 $ a kg, and then the fisherman has to add his costs fuel boat etc then profit before it reaches the middle man.i am not a chinese millionaire...


----------



## fergee (1 March 2020)

tinhat said:


> I'm waiting for your post on bespoke gin distilling.



Funny you should mention that @tinhat I have been teaching some local boys over here in Japan how to brew their own beer.


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2020)

tinhat said:


> I'm waiting for your post on bespoke gin distilling.



Gin!!!
Do you wanna be a permabear or something.


----------



## fergee (25 November 2021)

Just thought I would bump this thread as inflation starts to be felt and shortages of some items persist. 

Any thoughts on how inflations will effect food security?


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

The biggest issue for health policy planners is the projected health costs that obesity both adult and child  will have on the health budget.

Major health issues related to overfed people is the future crisis not famine.

But yah, there will be some delays on certain premium food items in the future.


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> The biggest issue for health policy planners is the projected health costs that obesity both adult and child  will have on the health budget.
> 
> Major health issues related to overfed people is the future crisis not famine.
> 
> But yah, there will be some delays on certain premium food items in the future.



The worry is for third world countries and poorer nations. Not our fat ar$es.

Just to add to this, Coronavirus already hit a lot of poorer countries for 6. They have been struggling for a while. Inflation is killing them. Soft diplomacy now would work in our favour.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> The worry is for third world countries and poorer nations. Not our fat ar$es.




Third world countries do not starve for any other reasons than:

- corrupt leadership
- religious/ethnic/cultural differences amongst themselves
- war


----------



## qldfrog (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Third world countries do not starve for any other reasons than:
> 
> - corrupt leadership
> - religious/ethnic/cultural differences amongst themselves
> - war



I disagree: if you double fertiliser costs, food price double.
What we are seeing now is POO jumping and so fertiliser price jumping/production decreasing
What we saw with the arab spring was nothing vs what we are heading for, and the Ukrainian war just an excuse
How do you think egyptians can get their food in 2022?
No backyard garden nor in any major city in africa middle east, pakistan, Afghanistan?
The green revolution, the initial one was the fertilizer one, and it enabled mankind to feed 10 billions or even more, so plenty of food and wastage overconsumption was possible


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Third world countries do not starve for any other reasons than:
> 
> - corrupt leadership
> - religious/ethnic/cultural differences amongst themselves
> - war



Lack of tourism has a huge effect on many countries. Everyone from taxi drivers to restaurants  end up feeling it. It takes a large chunk out of the economy. Price of oil, shipping and anything else makes it harder again. 

That's on top of the corruption.


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

We don't have to go back very many decades when our families used to practise the art of conserving food... Pickling, canning, bottling, salting, whatever.

Now we just turn up at a supermarket and expect to buy whatever the hell we want.

In terms of human history, this is actually an anomaly.

My not so very humble opinion, if we want to survive as individual family units, need to get back to those skills.


----------



## Country Lad (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Third world countries do not starve for any other reasons than:
> 
> - corrupt leadership
> - religious/ethnic/cultural differences amongst themselves
> - war



Or just plain dumb decisions

Sri Lanka’s Plunge Into Organic Farming Brings Disaster​The economically troubled country banned chemical fertilizers without preparing farmers, prompting a surge in food prices and worries about shortages.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

Ok add st


Country Lad said:


> Or just plain dumb decisions
> 
> Sri Lanka’s Plunge Into Organic Farming Brings Disaster​The economically troubled country banned chemical fertilizers without preparing farmers, prompting a surge in food prices and worries about shortages.




Add stupidity &; incompetence to my list.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (13 April 2022)

_the impact of higher prices hits the poorest hardest._
Surge in food costs​Soaring prices for cooking oils, cereals and meats meant that food commodities cost a third more than the same time last year, according to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has disrupted the supply of key commodities, including wheat, corn, barley and sunflower oil.​
(Over the past five years, the two countries together have accounted for nearly 30 per cent of the world’s wheat exports, 17 per cent of corn, 32 per cent of barley (a crucial source of animal feed), and 75 per cent of sunflower seed oil, an important cooking oil.)

The war has helped push cereal prices up 17 per cent over the past month, while the cost of vegetable oil jumped 23 per cent.

The surge in food costs has a bigger impact in less affluent countries. In advanced economies, food typically accounts for less than 20 per cent of consumer spending. In developing countries, a much higher proportion of the household budget is spent on food.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Ok add st
> 
> 
> Add stupidity &; incompetence to my list.



In the poorest of areas, most farmers are subsistence farmers, who lack the scale, mechanisation , soil analysis etc that we westerners take for granted. 
They till by hand, plough with horses, donkeys or oxen, harvest by hand and sometimes cart to market with donkeys, horses and oxemn.
The cost of Urea , diesel etc are not of any great concern to them, as they generally consume most of what they produce themselves, with whats left over used as a bartering commodity locally.
Mick


----------



## 3 hound (13 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In the poorest of areas, most farmers are subsistence farmers, who lack the scale, mechanisation , soil analysis etc that we westerners take for granted.
> They till by hand, plough with horses, donkeys or oxen, harvest by hand and sometimes cart to market with donkeys, horses and oxemn.
> The cost of Urea , diesel etc are not of any great concern to them, as they generally consume most of what they produce themselves, with whats left over used as a bartering commodity locally.
> Mick




I am talking about starvation in the third world. Not third world food production.

Starvation in the third world is not correlated to food production. That's why starvation is even more of an obscene crime.

I no longer donate to charities in that space because so little of it if any will end up helping a hungry person eat for all the reasons mentioned.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am talking about starvation in the third world. Not third world food production.
> 
> Starvation in the third world is not correlated to food production. That's why starvation is even more of an obscene crime.
> 
> I no longer donate to charities in that space because so little of it if any will end up helping a hungry person eat for all the reasons mentioned.



Starvation not correlated to Food production?
Thats an interesting take on things, that you might need to expand on to get anyone to  accept that view.
Having lived and worked in Africa, Fiji, Vanuatu and Irian Jaya, I spent a lot of time up close and personal to third world poor.
And I would agree that donating to Charities is  often a waste of resources, but for probably all the wrong reasons.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (13 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In the poorest of areas, most farmers are subsistence farmers, who lack the scale, mechanisation , soil analysis etc that we westerners take for granted.
> They till by hand, plough with horses, donkeys or oxen, harvest by hand and sometimes cart to market with donkeys, horses and oxemn.
> The cost of Urea , diesel etc are not of any great concern to them, as they generally consume most of what they produce themselves, with whats left over used as a bartering commodity locally.
> Mick



Mike, i can guarantee you that all subsistence farmers and smallscale farmer use fertiliser but for the most remote parts of amazon and borneo, all SE asia ,africa and latin america uses fertiliser..do you think the peru farmers rioting now have tractors and harvester.
People can not seem to understand  that: we as the 8 billions on earth are eating oil..not directly but thru fertilizers, and mechanisation in advance countries








						Green Revolution - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## qldfrog (13 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Mike, i can guarantee you that all subsistence farmers and smallscale farmer use fertiliser but for the most remote parts of amazon and borneo, all SE asia ,africa and latin america uses fertiliser..do you think the peru farmers rioting now have tractors and harvester.
> People can not seem to understand  that: we as the 8 billions on earth are eating oil..not directly but thru fertilizers, and mechanisation in advance countries
> 
> 
> ...



And yes we can eat solar energy too,  creating fertilisers from green H2 etc...but we do not currently..so we starve..we as mankind if petrol lacks..or is too expensive which ends up the same for poorer people


----------



## 3 hound (13 April 2022)

@mullokintyre

Yeah it comes as a shock, people think drought = no crops = starvation. Sounds reasonable enough and definitely is a contributor but it assumes food is consumed where it is grown....it isn't except rare special cases.

Even in good seasons with bumper crops food can rot in the field and people starve because the workforce has been mutually wiped out with machetes with opposing sides literally hacking each other's arms off over ancient ethnic differences while the crops rot.

Take Rhodesia/Zimbabwe as yet another example. The literal food bowl of Africa, extremely productive farms where not unusual for an entire family of farmers hacked to death in their homes with machetes....long story short the food bowl of Africa can't even feed itself and had to start printing godzillion dollar notes to buy a loaf of bread.

It's complicated but generally people don't starve because the world doesn't produce enough food.

Look at Australia, you can live a life of relative luxury on the various welfare handouts and not do a day's work but we have people in Australia that go hungry all the time even with good access to welfare and free food.

Having said all that could be some big problems ahead with fertiliser shortages.


----------



## qldfrog (14 April 2022)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-peru-inflation-idUSKCN2M50UG


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> People can not seem to understand that: we as the 8 billions on earth are eating oil..



Ultimately modern food production is effectively an elaborate and inefficient process that converts energy in the manner the term is most widely used, that is fossil fuels and electricity, into a form humans can eat.

Whether we like it or not though it's a reality that humans aren't really powered by traditional agriculture or hunting and gathering now that there's 7.7 billion and rising. We're rather more dependent on machines than most would like to admit.


----------



## 3 hound (14 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ultimately modern food production is effectively an elaborate and inefficient process that converts energy in the manner the term is most widely used, that is fossil fuels and electricity, into a form humans can eat.




Modern  farming is the most efficient and effective system humans have ever invented. The entire system from production to distribution onto the shelves is the most amazing machine we have. 

The problem is most of the population are completely oblivious and ignorant to how food gets on to the shelf at Woolies.


----------



## qldfrog (14 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Modern  farming is the most efficient and effective system humans have ever invented. The entire system from production to distribution onto the shelves is the most amazing machine we have.
> 
> The problem is most of the population are completely oblivious and ignorant to how food gets on to the shelf at Woolies.



Effective definitively but it is not a Greta green dream of soil, vees and sun feeding the world, more oil intensive conversion of fertilisers inyo edible starches, quiet optimised as well with genetic selection, chemical sciences and mechanical engineering


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ultimately modern food production is effectively an elaborate and inefficient process that converts energy in the manner the term is most widely used, that is fossil fuels and electricity, into a form humans can eat.
> 
> Whether we like it or not though it's a reality that humans aren't really powered by traditional agriculture or hunting and gathering now that there's 7.7 billion and rising. We're rather more dependent on machines than most would like to admit.



We have certainly come a long way since we tamed the dog and horse. 

So we are three.

1. Man
2. Horse
3 Hound

gg


----------



## qldfrog (14 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Effective definitively but it is not a Greta green dream of soil, vees and sun feeding the world, more oil intensive conversion of fertilisers inyo edible starches, quiet optimised as well with genetic selection, chemical sciences and mechanical engineering



Apologies for typo,quite..not quiet etc .


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Modern farming is the most efficient and effective system humans have ever invented.



The most efficient use of human labour to feed humans certainly. Can't argue with that.   

In terms of efficiency of other things however, it's not so good.

The energy content of food eaten by the average adult at 8.7MJ per day is equivalent to 0.225 litres of diesel fuel.

Now how much fuel did we use to run the farm machinery, pump water, make fertilizers, transport the food to processing plants and then supermarkets, drive to and from the shop and so on?

It's hard to put a figure on it but I think it's fair to say that rather a lot of energy is being put into the whole process relative to what ends up on the plate. It's efficient in terms of labour, not so good in terms of physics.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 April 2022)

For most Australians food scarcity in 2022 is something that happens overseas. 

There is a difference between relative poverty and scarcity of food. The former can have multiple causes, bad luck, parents status at birth, drug addiction and illness. 

PNG our nearest unstable neighbour has enough food. Timor is back on its feet food wise. Fringe Asia and Africa will suffer from episodic famines. 

Big Food will continue to poison our processed foods with sugar, salt and some cousin of Agent Orange. 

It is all relative. 

gg


----------



## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's hard to put a figure on it but I think it's fair to say that rather a lot of energy is being put into the whole process relative to what ends up on the plate. It's efficient in terms of labour, not so good in terms of physics.




I think there is a fallacy here, you can't compare the energy efficiency of the food production & distribution chain to a Carnot engine. Which is what you are doing without knowing it.

You can only compare our current practices to every other possible mode of production and distribution. That's where you will find current modern farming practices are efficient as they can be.

If you want to talk physics then the real thing that abolished slavery on farms was not the civil war in the US or enforcement of any other laws as you may think. Slavery did not end because humans are nice people. Slavery and every other use of forced labour eg farm animald ended because fossil fuels cost less, gave more work output and os more reliable and efficient than human slaves horses pulling ploughs etc

We actually should be teaching how fossil fuels ended poverty and human misery more than anything else ever and is the sole factor in the massive population growth and unprecedented wealth and comfort most humans enjoy now - HOW DARE YOU..


----------



## mullokintyre (16 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> The most efficient use of human labour to feed humans certainly. Can't argue with that.
> 
> In terms of efficiency of other things however, it's not so good.
> 
> ...



The Salad I made last night had bean sprouts we grew in a bean sprout solarium, lettuce leaves and green capsicums from our garden, added to two fine pieces of eye fillet from beef cattle we raised,  and was topped off with a rare Duriff pressed from our own grapes.
I can  sit back with a smug smile and say "it wasn't me".
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (16 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Salad I made last night had bean sprouts we grew in a bean sprout solarium, lettuce leaves and green capsicums from our garden, added to two fine pieces of eye fillet from beef cattle we raised,  and was topped off with a rare Duriff pressed from our own grapes.
> I can  sit back with a smug smile and say "it wasn't me".
> Mick



Same here, cattle ,garden ,fruits but our own examples are not the rules and the billions in Africa Asia, Europe and even most if Australian are fed on oil based, fertiliser intensive cereals/rice from the us, Europe inc russia and Thailand farms.
Even our butchers's beef is usually force fed feedlot antibiotics and grain


----------



## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

I eat 3 oranges a year, a dozen apples, a few punnets of strawberries and some bananas.

The water, fertiliser, fuel, chemicals and time required to produce that in my backyard or acquire the land and foot the production costs of raising a few cattle to eat is the worst possible economic plan knowable.

If folks want to do that as a hobby, enjoy it but it's not a solution for the vast majority of people...in fact it's impossible.

I buy such small quantities of fruit and veges such that people in the check-out line think I am struggling for cash and offer to pay for them yet most of what I buy goes off in the fridge and is thrown in the bin before I can consume it.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 April 2022)

Much of what we eat depends on our culture. 




3 hound in Korea.

We do as our culture or lack of it decides.

gg


----------



## Dona Ferentes (16 April 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We do as our culture or lack of it decides.
> 
> gg



Nicely skewered


----------



## qldfrog (16 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I eat 3 oranges a year, a dozen apples, a few punnets of strawberries and some bananas.
> 
> The water, fertiliser, fuel, chemicals and time required to produce that in my backyard or acquire the land and foot the production costs of raising a few cattle to eat is the worst possible economic plan knowable.
> 
> ...



I thiñnk you should change diet, get more vegies and fruits in😂


----------



## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I thiñnk you should change diet, get more vegies and fruits in😂



 Overrated.


----------



## moXJO (22 April 2022)

Current bird flu pandemic will be wiping out a lot of poultry. More upward pressure.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I think there is a fallacy here, you can't compare the energy efficiency of the food production & distribution chain to a Carnot engine. Which is what you are doing without knowing it.



Sort of but not quite.

I know that's exactly what I'm doing.  

Modern farming is efficient in terms of labour and so on and beats any other way humans have come up with to produce food.

In pure physics terms however not much of the energy input from the diesel, natural gas (fertilizer) and electricity actually makes it to my mouth. Most is lost along the way. In that sense it's inefficient.

That has relevance in a few ways.

In some cases there's use of things grown directly as a source of energy for machines or as chemical feedstock, building materials and so on. Is that really a good use of land and all the inputs that go into farming? Or would we be better off just using the crude oil, natural gas and so on directly and skipping the entire step of agriculture?

That's not about humans eating it but I'm referring to, for example, burning wheat or corn as fuel to heat buildings. That one's very highly questionable as to whether there's any real benefit once all the inputs used to grow, harvest and transport the wheat or corn are considered. It's doubly dubious when there's credible talk of food shortages.

Then there's meat versus plants. I'm not a vegetarian, so I'm not preaching to anyone, but there must be a significant energy loss in turning grain into meat versus just eating the grain.

My basic point being that the world's crop production could feed more people if we didn't burn some as fuel and if we at least reduced the amount converted into meat.

That's a physics argument yes.


----------



## qldfrog (23 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sort of but not quite.
> 
> I know that's exactly what I'm doing.
> 
> ...



The big heresy is ethanol in fuel:
Great if using agricultural waste but the current scheme in the US is deliberately turning corn into ethanol to add to car fuel(gas in us lingo)
Sadly it takes more oil to create that ethanol energy than produced.
So de facto a pure subsidy to us farming with a clear waste of energy/resource.
Biden just increased in the last week the ratio of ethanol in US fuels....to save petrol following the energy crisis with Russian embargo.
 So wasting more oil, and increasing food shortages..you could not make this up.
With friends like that, who needs enemies
Only bio diesel (vegetable oil) has a positive energy bill.Was true 5y or so ago, and i doubt it has changed


----------



## 3 hound (23 April 2022)

Ethanol is proving to be a scam in environment terms and only really benefits politicians looking to curry favour with the powerful farm lobby.


qldfrog said:


> The big heresy is ethanol in fuel:
> Great if using agricultural waste but the current scheme in the US is deliberately turning corn into ethanol to add to car fuel(gas in us lingo)
> Sadly it takes more oil to create that ethanol energy than produced.
> So de facto a pure subsidy to us farming with a clear waste of energy/resource.
> ...


----------



## Joe Blow (23 April 2022)

Very interesting discussions happening in this thread but not a lot to do with food scarcity. 

I will see what I can do about moving posts into other threads tomorrow (I am on the phone at the moment) but in the meantime can we please get this thread back on topic.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## 3 hound (23 April 2022)

Joe Blow said:


> Very interesting discussions happening in this thread but not a lot to do with food scarcity.
> 
> I will see what I can do about moving posts into other threads tomorrow (I am on the phone at the moment) but in the meantime can we please get this thread back on topic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



My bad, read this after I posted, apologies for creating extra work for you. Will get back on topic.

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (23 April 2022)

Joe Blow said:


> Very interesting discussions happening in this thread but not a lot to do with food scarcity.
> 
> I will see what I can do about moving posts into other threads tomorrow (I am on the phone at the moment) but in the meantime can we please get this thread back on topic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Yeah sorry Joe.

Yep well worthy of its own thread and shouldn't take away from the important topic of this thread.


----------



## divs4ever (23 April 2022)

Joe Blow said:


> Very interesting discussions happening in this thread but not a lot to do with food scarcity.
> 
> I will see what I can do about moving posts into other threads tomorrow (I am on the phone at the moment) but in the meantime can we please get this thread back on topic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



 well i could say hungry ( desperate ) people do despicable things ( to fill the families bellies )

 but unless we double back to  agriculture/aquaculture  where do we go this shortage has been started by decades of unwise policy decisions  , now compounded by unfortunate weather events , some corporations  missing guidance ( fertilizer companies ,some growers , some logistics companies )  one problem leaves you open to further distractions until no progress is made 

  but would we need a gardening   or nutrition thread 

 yes the hood-winked public are starting to notice now  , but this has been brewing for years  ( on an Australian level AND  an international one )

 the current narrative in several nations is that hoarding is BAD , preppers are crazy  and the government will have it all under control


----------



## divs4ever (23 April 2022)

As Commodities Rise, Sugar's Outlook Just Gets Sweeter









						As Commodities Rise, Sugar's Outlook Just Gets Sweeter | Investing.com AU
					

Commodities Analysis by Andy Hecht covering: BRL/USD, US Dollar Index Futures, US Coffee C Futures, US Sugar #11 Futures. Read Andy Hecht's latest article on Investing.com Australia.




					au.investing.com
				




 couldn't resist posting this 

 ( but actually it is the buying power of the dollar cratering  )


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The big heresy is ethanol in fuel:
> Great if using agricultural waste but the current scheme in the US is deliberately turning corn into ethanol to add to car fuel(gas in us lingo)



If it's using waste then sure, that's putting it to a sensible use.

Also there are niche applications where ethanol, regardless of how it's produced, does have huge value as fuel in an engine due to its oxygen content. If the engine unavoidably needs to be used in a confined space well then ethanol has value definitely if it's all mixed and used properly.

Turning corn or wheat into fuel with which to run ordinary road vehicles under normal conditions of use is however an extremely dubious idea. The benefit in terms of fuel use is relatively minor at best and then there's the fertilizer use, water use, land degradation and so on. We're literally turning food into fuel which is rather bizarre considering that a farm turns fuel into food.

Then there's the non-engine uses. I realised after the previous post but many perhaps aren't aware that corn or wheat-fired heaters are a thing. Like this:



That's corn burning there yes. There are similar design heaters that burn wheat or other crops too.

Burning pellets made from waste sawdust from saw milling sure, that makes sense, but burning food?


----------



## divs4ever (24 April 2022)

CF Industries says Union Pacific reductions will shrink fertilizer supply​








						CF Industries says Union Pacific reductions will shrink fertilizer supply
					

CF Industries reported it informed customers it serves by Union Pacific rail lines that shipping reductions would result in nitrogen fertilizer shipment delays during the spring planting season.



					www.weeklycitizen.com


----------



## divs4ever (24 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If it's using waste then sure, that's putting it to a sensible use.
> 
> Also there are niche applications where ethanol, regardless of how it's produced, does have huge value as fuel in an engine due to its oxygen content. If the engine unavoidably needs to be used in a confined space well then ethanol has value definitely if it's all mixed and used properly.
> 
> ...




 yes  , such ideas imply a surplus  of food  ( but maybe they are poor quality crops , you know the rejected stuff  )  while consensus  says food is getting scarcer 

 strange times it seems


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## qldfrog (24 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> yes  , such ideas imply a surplus  of food  ( but maybe they are poor quality crops , you know the rejected stuff  )  while consensus  says food is getting scarcer
> 
> strange times it seems



There is this, indeed rot affected grains etc, but now in EU and US, it has a life of its own and some crops are going that way from start.just a subsidy program in disguise plus an eco narrative.i actually wonder where our ethanol used in our cars here come from?
I somehow doubt it is just sugar cane wastes.
Note: from what i remember,sugarcane based ethanol was energy positive, but not cereals based ones.
Brazil was big on this
I could be proven wrong but vegetable oil and sugarcane ethanol  in cars are the only ones to make kind of sense on an oil saving basis.


----------



## divs4ever (24 April 2022)

i thought sugarbeet  was competitive  to cane on that front , but i could be wrong there ,


----------



## moXJO (24 April 2022)

Reports of water shortages going on in a few countries


----------



## divs4ever (24 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Reports of water shortages going on in a few countries



 yes that  , as well , however that MIGHT be cyclic ( several nations face droughts regularly , so in some places  just another hardship )


----------



## qldfrog (24 April 2022)

An interesting article about energy efficiency of ethanol





						Ethanol fuel energy balance - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 3 hound (24 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> An interesting article about energy efficiency of ethanol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For those that prefer video (corn based ethanol) this is my go to channel for anything technical, EV`s etc.

He is big brain, honest and great communicator. Highly recommend for any layman that wants to understand technology at a rigorous level without BS.


----------



## qldfrog (10 May 2022)

Why farmers are dumping truckloads of avocados
					

A Queensland resident who stumbled upon the scene said there were ‘tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of avocados going to waste’.




					7news.com.au
				



Can you inagine it is cheaper for a producer to dump than pack ,ship and sell.....
At $1 or more a pop retail.
And these have been picked,and can be left in cold storage for ages.
But i noted many avos coming from NZ lately in coles & woolies.
As a Qlder, it makes me sick as avos are eally nature's gift...


----------



## 3 hound (10 May 2022)

Inflation is a supply chain issue they said.


----------



## divs4ever (10 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Why farmers are dumping truckloads of avocados
> 
> 
> A Queensland resident who stumbled upon the scene said there were ‘tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of avocados going to waste’.
> ...



 yes i can ( sadly )

 HOWEVER  if you lived nearby  such a farm  , maybe you could work out a deal  for yourself ( and friendly neighbours )

 PS i remember decades ago  a buddy that was  doing the same with apples and oranges ( and the odd grape haul ) from the Stanthorpe area  , turned out to be worth the round trip from Brisbane  , to load ( it started from regular trips to NSW  , but turned into a side-hustle  in it's own right )

 and  an interstate truckie did similar  with potatoes ( but only loaded up  as part of the usual interstate deliveries )


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2022)

Wonder how bad it gets....


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Wonder how bad it gets....




 in Europe ??

 France a couple of hundred years back  is a fair indication  , starving people quickly lose their veneer of civilization


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (19 May 2022)

Starting to feel a bit like the start of Mad Max 2.


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> Starting to feel a bit like the start of Mad Max 2.



 and MIGHT spiral down  much further  from there  ( depending on where you are living )

students of human nature will understand what i mean 

 some governments gleefully broke up  'a sense of community ' in pursuit of creating a cult


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (19 May 2022)

I'm off to get a full Tank of Diesel


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> I'm off to get a full Tank of Diesel



 tank a Jerry can  , it might be useful  ( later )


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2022)

In french from farming group:








						Guerre en Ukraine : la production de blé n'augmentera-t-elle qu'en Russie cette année ?
					

LA VÉRIFICATION - La présidente de la FNSEA, Christiane Lambert, a alerté sur la baisse attendue des récoltes de blé en France et aux États-Unis. Ses craintes sont-elles justifiées ?




					www.lefigaro.fr
				



Russia this year is getting its biggest wheat harvest even .while EU, USA and South America are hit by bad harvests.
Who is going to get fed this year? 
I guess probably not Ukraine's "friends"


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

good thing India has decided it some help out some desperate neighbors  then


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> tank a Jerry can  , it might be useful  ( later )



 should have read ' take  a Jerry can  , '


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

THE UK IS IN DEEP TROUBLE!


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2022)

Our crops should have a good harvest. So long as the latest mice plague doesn't get traction.


----------



## JohnDe (19 May 2022)

There is no food scarcity, in first world countries.

It is the poor nations that suffer from first world inflation and demand.

_"The US Treasury last month convened a meeting with multilateral institutions to discuss measures to tackle rising food insecurity. Among its own initiatives, the US has allocated new global emergency food assistance bringing the total since February to nearly $2.6bn. It is also looking to mitigate the global fertiliser shortage by boosting domestic production of crop nutrients through a $500mn US Department of Agriculture programme."_​
*World’s poorest nations to receive aid amid soaring food prices*


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (19 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Wonder how bad it gets....


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


>




God, let's hope not. GFC brought similar fears and that turned out to be a blip on the radar.

Biggest threat is the supply lines being so sluggish. Multiple things going on.
Someone was telling me that China had shipped all the containers overseas and none were coming back via China imports.

Not sure if it's true or not.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> THE UK IS IN DEEP TROUBLE!



He notes correctly that higher fuel prices are not driven by the Ukraine war but then goes on to say it's driven by the sanctions.

Nope - the UK and others' big gas price runup got underway many months before reports that Russia was amassing troops at the border. Gas is fuel directly and it also feeds directly into fertilizer prices and thus food prices.

Or in other words, he's right that it's not the war but he's wrong in saying it's due to sanctions. The sanctions added to it but problem as such predates and is deeper than that alone.


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

there are several nasty trends that were accelerating  before the Russian 'military operation ' ( they should have called it a ' police action'  and used the US/Australian involvement in Vietnam , and neighbours  as the maximum limit to tactics  and devices deployed  , after all  apart from angry hippies nobody else in the West complained much )

 the food shortages ( and compounding logistics  problems ) the dedicated push to stop investment in fossil fuel  projects ( and nuclear power plants ) there was a LOT of damage being done to global production  before January 2022  , now SOME may have been 'enemy action ' ( OPEC and China come to mind ) but a lot was being self-inflicted  ( say Victorian energy exploration policy  as an example but NOT unique even in Australia , QLD was doing similar with coal mine development )

 but smart people will see through the Russo-phobia  and their trust in their glorious leaders will erode a little more 

 and am SHOCKED Scotty from marketing thinks he has the narrative under control


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There is no food scarcity, in first world countries.
> 
> It is the poor nations that suffer from first world inflation and demand.
> 
> ...



Sending less of the grain and soybeans we produce to factory farms would also help increase food security. 

It’s a crazy fact that only 6% of soybeans grown are eaten by humans directly, the majority are fed to animals in factory farms and feed lots. It’s a similar story with wheat, corn, rice and other crops, animals in factory farms also consume a large chunk of the fish caught. 

If we collectively ate less meat, there would be lower food prices, and no food insecurity.


----------



## peter2 (24 May 2022)

Noticed huge volume went into the Betashares Global Agriculture ETF ( FOOD) today. 
Over 1 million shares exchanged. Is it a buy or a sell?


----------



## qldfrog (24 May 2022)

peter2 said:


> Noticed huge volume went into the Betashares Global Agriculture ETF ( FOOD) today.
> Over 1 million shares exchanged. Is it a buy or a sell?



i have a substantial packet of these in the discretionary portfolio:+1.52% today so far
more like that please


----------



## divs4ever (24 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Sending less of the grain and soybeans we produce to factory farms would also help increase food security.
> 
> It’s a crazy fact that only 6% of soybeans grown are eaten by humans directly, the majority are fed to animals in factory farms and feed lots. It’s a similar story with wheat, corn, rice and other crops, animals in factory farms also consume a large chunk of the fish caught.
> 
> If we collectively ate less meat, there would be lower food prices, and no food insecurity.



 i have seen some saying we shouldn't be eating soy at all  , so maybe we should be planting more ( normal ) beans and peas   are returning nutrients to the soil


----------



## Value Collector (24 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i have seen some saying we shouldn't be eating soy at all  , so maybe we should be planting more ( normal ) beans and peas   are returning nutrients to the soil



Most of the anti soy stuff has been debunked, but of course the farmers could plant other crops in their place if the demand changed.

Basically a lot of the Anti soy stuff goes back to outdated studies from the 80’s that were based on force feeding mice soy protein which it turns out doesn’t related to humans and were in amounts that no human would ever eat anyway.

Also, there were concerns that the phyto-esterogen in soy would have an adverse affect on Males, but it turns out it does act the same way as Mammal Estero hen and actually has health benefits, where as the Mammal esteogen humans consume in meat and milk from female cows is more dangerous if you are worried about estrogen in take.


----------



## divs4ever (24 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most of the anti soy stuff has been debunked, but of course the farmers could plant other crops in their place if the demand changed.
> 
> Basically a lot of the Anti soy stuff goes back to outdated studies from the 80’s that were based on force feeding mice soy protein which it turns out doesn’t related to humans and were in amounts that no human would ever eat anyway.
> 
> Also, there were concerns that the phyto-esterogen in soy would have an adverse affect on Males, but it turns out it does act the same way as Mammal Estero hen and actually has health benefits, where as the Mammal esteogen humans consume in meat and milk from female cows is more dangerous if you are worried about estrogen in take.




well my gut doesn't like soy  ( not even the sauce )  and there was a Japanese professor  who gave strong warnings on Monsanto's GM soy 

 feel free to grab my share ( of soy )


----------



## divs4ever (24 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


>




might not be that civilized


----------



## Value Collector (24 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well my gut doesn't like soy  ( not even the sauce )  and there was a Japanese professor  who gave strong warnings on Monsanto's GM soy
> 
> feel free to grab my share ( of soy )



I guess people can be allergic to anything, I mean some people can die from the smell of a peanut, but for the rest of us there’s no need to avoid soy or peanuts, in general unless you have an allergy both are pretty healthy.

I will definitely take your share, I love Korean BBQ Tofu


----------



## divs4ever (24 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I guess people can be allergic to anything, I mean some people can die from the smell of a peanut, but for the rest of us there’s no need to avoid soy or peanuts, in general unless you have an allergy both are pretty healthy.
> 
> I will definitely take your share, I love Korean BBQ Tofu



 just seems to sit in my gut , whether soy milk ( or something with soy milk powder included ) and of course the other easy spot soy products )

 unlike my intolerance to garlic , now ( which was overuse in years gone by  ) the soy thing seems to have been most of my adult like ( soy wasn't around much when a was a child/teen  , a bit of soy sauce in an Asian meal was about it )

 but yeah , enjoy


----------



## moXJO (24 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most of the anti soy stuff has been debunked, but of course the farmers could plant other crops in their place if the demand changed.
> 
> Basically a lot of the Anti soy stuff goes back to outdated studies from the 80’s that were based on force feeding mice soy protein which it turns out doesn’t related to humans and were in amounts that no human would ever eat anyway.
> 
> Also, there were concerns that the phyto-esterogen in soy would have an adverse affect on Males, but it turns out it does act the same way as Mammal Estero hen and actually has health benefits, where as the Mammal esteogen humans consume in meat and milk from female cows is more dangerous if you are worried about estrogen in take.




The science isn't clear I thought. There's studies either way.


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> The science isn't clear I thought. There's studies either way.



The science is pretty clear, take a look into it and you will see that most of the negative claims come from a handful of botched studies back in the 80’s that articles just kept repeating for years, but they have since proven to be negative.

In reality humans have eaten soy beans for centuries, and they packed with protein, vitamins, minerals, good fats and carbohydrates and are low in the bad stuff.

There is no need to fear soy beans.

Here is a great article that compares the facts with some of the outdated claims


----------



## StockyGuy (25 May 2022)

Yup, in my own very subjective experience of observing other human primates it's the dedicated dairy lovers who seem to more often exhibit that estrogenic gyno manboobery.  Also bear in mind the Sanitarium So Good soy milk I buy is very well fortified, and is for that reason pretty much a health tonic in itself.


----------



## wayneL (25 May 2022)

Here's another article on Soy.









						Straight Talk About Soy
					

The Takeaway: Soy is a unique food that is widely studied for its estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects on the body. Studies may seem to present conflicting conclusions about soy, but this is larg…




					www.hsph.harvard.edu
				




The thing is both dairy and soybeans are huge industries competing with each other, therefore studies do have a vested interest in the result depending on who is funding it. There also seems to be a political angle to it, which is curious.

That leaves us to interpret the science as best as we can. Additionally I would posit that manboobery might have other factors involved rather that strictly dairy or soy.

I don't shun either but also don't consume much of either.


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Here's another article on Soy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The diary industry needs you to eat dairy, the soybean industry needs you to eat chickens and pigs.

Remember only 6% of soybeans are eaten by humans the bulk of them go to factory farms, so the "Soy bean" industry doesn't really want you to convert to tofu, but the meat and dairy industry want you to stay with them.

So its definitely the meat and dairy industry that has the most to lose and they will try and poison the well for alternatives if they can.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

Humans have been eating dairy products (milk, cheese,  yoghurt)  for a lot longer than they have eaten soy based products.
History is a great teacher.
Mick


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 May 2022)

The only thing I know about soy is that it is used as a protein boost in petfood, esp in cheaper brands, and boy does the flatulence increase.


----------



## divs4ever (25 May 2022)

Afghanistan bans wheat export to meet local needs






						Afghanistan bans wheat export to meet local needs
					

Afghanistan bans wheat export to meet local needs-



					english.news.cn
				




 am surprised they didn't relax that a little  and sell some to Iran ( maybe swap it for some petroleum products ) and help mend fences


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> The only thing I know about soy is that it is used as a protein boost in petfood, esp in cheaper brands, and boy does the flatulence increase.



Maybe you should stop eating it then Dona?
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

From Livewire



That has got to have an impact on food production worldwide.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Humans have been eating dairy products (milk, cheese,  yoghurt)  for a lot longer than they have eaten soy based products.
> History is a great teacher.
> Mick



I doubt that, soy beans have been part of the diet for thousands of years.

Also, most of the worlds population is allergic to dairy at some level.

65% - 70% of the world population is lactose intolerant.


> Most adults (around 65–70% of the world's population) are affected by lactose malabsorption.[5][8] Other mammals normally lose the ability to digest lactose after weaningand this was the ancestral state of all humans before the recent evolution of lactase persistence, which extends lactose tolerance into adulthood.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

I would respectfully disagree with your analysis.
Having read the article in question, the  64% figure relates to Asian populations, the 70% to middle east. The only other area where lactose intolerance is higher than 50% is Oceania. The rest of the world is below 50%
In sub saharan Africa, the so called cradle of civilisation,  its as low as 28%. 
The article says that the mutation in the DNA that causes lactose intolerance, appears to have evolved around 4300 years ago, so prior to that no one was lactose intolerant. 
All mammal milk contains lactose. 
Domesticated cows, goats, sheep and camels have all provided milk for a lot of societies.
According to This article



> Soybean is a species of legume that has a sweet flavour and is native to East Asia. It is first described in Chinese manuscripts in 2850 BC and was first farmed for domestic use by 1100 BC. By the first century AD, soybeans were grown in Japan and over the following centuries, soybean cultivation spread to Indonesia, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Burma, Nepal and India.
> 
> More recently, soybean has been cultivated around the world thanks to its popularity and versatility. It was first introduced to the United States in the 1800s and by the early 1900s, it was a commercial crop, noted for its durability and hardiness.
> 
> Today, the world’s top producers of soy are the United States, Brazil, Argentina, China and India.



So up until recent times, the soy bean was  restricted to East Asia.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would respectfully disagree with your analysis.
> Having read the article in question, the  64% figure relates to Asian populations, the 70% to middle east. The only other area where lactose intolerance is higher than 50% is Oceania. The rest of the world is below 50%
> In sub saharan Africa, the so called cradle of civilisation,  its as low as 28%.
> The article says that the mutation in the DNA that causes lactose intolerance, appears to have evolved around 4300 years ago, so prior to that no one was lactose intolerant.
> ...



A lot of the grain crops we eat came from Asia, even wheat came from Asia, as does rice and many other things humans routinely eat, soybeans were being grown in Europe before potatoes and corn, which came from the Americas, so I don’t know how the location of origin affects anything. 

But , as I said most of the worlds population is lactose intolerant to some level, if you want to exclude most of the worlds population eg Asia, Middle East etc then you do that, but the fact is they exist.

Most mammals are lactose intolerant as adults, just like humans, after all milk is for infants, some human populations adapted to drinking female mammary Secretions as adults however most didn’t.

——————————
Either way whether humans drink milk or not doesn’t really matter, you suggested Soy consumption is a recent thing, which obviously it’s not, it was one of the early crops to be domesticated, and obviously humans would have been foraging on them for thousands of years before they learned to farm them.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would respectfully disagree with your analysis.
> Having read the article in question, the  64% figure relates to Asian populations, the 70% to middle east. The only other area where lactose intolerance is higher than 50% is Oceania. The rest of the world is below 50%
> In sub saharan Africa, the so called cradle of civilisation,  its as low as 28%.
> The article says that the mutation in the DNA that causes lactose intolerance, appears to have evolved around 4300 years ago, so prior to that no one was lactose intolerant.
> ...



One other point, you misread the information about the DNA mutation involving Lactose digestion, the mutation didn’t cause humans to become lactose intolerant, it caused a small number of humans to be able to digest lactose as adults, but about 70% of humans don’t have this adaption, so as adults they can’t digest it.

Humans like all other mammals lose the ability to digest lactose once they wean off their mothers milk, it’s only a small subset of the human population that developed a genetic mutation that has allowed them to carry this ability into adult hood. 

There are by far a much smaller number of people that have trouble disgracing Soy beans than have trouble with diary. 

——————————
I am not promoting Soy, just pointing out that it is not bad for you, and if people are worried about complications related to foods, they should be looking at diary, it’s one of the most heavily promoted foods, with powerful lobby groups and it is actually not that healthy for most of the population.

Even the soy bean growers like to push diary products because globally dairy cows eat a lot more soybeans than are consumed making soy milk, and the meat industry consumes more soybeans than the tofu industry.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2022)

It is an interesting fact though that diary is marketed as being a good source of protein and calcium, but large commercial dairy farms feed their cows soy beans to increase the cows intake of protein and calcium 

But, then because so many of us are lactose intolerant we end up have malabsorption of that diary based calcium and protein.


----------



## qldfrog (29 May 2022)

The banks collapsed in 2008 – and our food system is about to do the same | George Monbiot
					

Massive food producers hold too much power – and the regulators scarcely understand what is happening. Sound familiar, asks Guardian columnist George Monbiot




					www.theguardian.com
				



Being the Guardian, had to be under climate crisis..but some good facts


----------



## Telamelo (29 May 2022)

I love all thing's dairy & soy - no problem whatsoever consuming both.

My serious allergy is rock melon & honey (if from a jar - as honey in cooking I love it no worries/problems). I often eat lemon & honey chicken (my favourite).


----------



## wayneL (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It is an interesting fact though that diary is marketed as being a good source of protein and calcium, but large commercial dairy farms feed their cows soy beans to increase the cows intake of protein and calcium
> 
> But, then because so many of us are lactose intolerant we end up have malabsorption of that diary based calcium and protein.



It's true that there is a correlation between high dairy intake and hi incidence of osteoporosis.


----------



## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Our crops should have a good harvest. So long as the latest mice plague doesn't get traction.



Dude keep up, the rain has either directly destroyed entire crops or the land is so wet that machinery had been unable to get in to harvest them again resulting in entire harvests left to rot. Even grazing on unimproved pastures is suffering.

Yes some will do well others will be completely wiped out coming off 10 years of drought they borrowed heavily expecting a good year to pay for all the drought debt - this was the last straw, many will never farm again.


----------



## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

Soy face and low T soy boy phenomena  seems pretty real to me.

I have not looked at any studies.


----------



## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's true that there is a correlation between high dairy intake and hi incidence of osteoporosis.



Yep, and then the dairy industry fund campaigns that use osteoporosis as a reason for people to consume even more dairy, even though they know that populations with higher dairy intake suffer higher rates of osteoporosis.

The best thing to do to prevent osteoporosis is to get your calcium by eating vegetables and leafy greens and resistance exercise like weights or even swimming.


----------



## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I have not looked at any studies.




I don’t doubt that, not many of the fragile right wing snow flakes that would use those terms have looked at the studies, in those circles appealing to the status quo, logical fallacy’s and using confirmation bias is more common that actually resorting to real evidence.


----------



## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t doubt that, not many of the fragile right wing snow flakes that would use those terms have looked at the studies, in those circles appealing to the status quo, logical fallacy’s and using confirmation bias is more common that actually resorting to real evidence.



Geez settle guy, I thought adding I never looked at studies made it clear it was a joke.

Triggered much.


----------



## divs4ever (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t doubt that, not many of the fragile right wing snow flakes that would use those terms have looked at the studies, in those circles appealing to the status quo, logical fallacy’s and using confirmation bias is more common that actually resorting to real evidence.



 another symptom of recent times  ( the pursuit of conformation bias )


----------



## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Triggered much.




Maybe, I have a couple of Fragile Toxic males of the type I described above in my extended family, when I googled the terms you wrote to see what you were talking about it reminded me of them, hahaha they are such pathetic excuses for men it’s annoying hearing them rant about what a “real man” is and does.

One of them can’t see their kids because of restraining orders, and he has been to jail previously for bashing his wife, yet he has the nerve to call my wife and abuse her because we bought his son a plant based burger at hungry jacks, and he thinks we might turn him into a vegan, which to him is clearly a much bigger crime than bashing the child’s mother and emotionally abusing children 🙄


----------



## wayneL (29 May 2022)

Just a point, such creatures are not always right wing. Plenty of lefties are similarly egregious....


----------



## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Just a point, such creatures are not always right wing. Plenty of lefties are similarly egregious....




Right/Left wing are the most intellectually laziest terms to describe political positions and people.

They usually get used as low IQ attack words when the reptilian brain has been activated as old mate just demonstrated.

I realise the media use the terms a lot to provoke traffic and clicks.

I am an issues voter I have no clue what left or right wing even suppose to  mean in 2022.

In real life nearly everyone is too nuanced, complex and sophisticated to divide simply into two groups of left or right wing...it's obnoxious, dumb and ridiculous.


----------



## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Right/Left wing are the most intellectually laziest terms to describe political positions and people.
> 
> They usually get used as low IQ attack words when the reptilian brain has been activated as old mate just demonstrated.
> 
> ...



I don’t know about that, maybe it’s because I spend a lot of time in America, but I am constantly surprised by how polarised politics is, and the tribalism involved, and how it seems like ideas are clumped together and accepted almost as a religion. 

I mean there is a reason being a republican for example almost a guarantee that your views on certain things like gun control can be predicted.

I am somewhere in the middle, so can see the crazy in both sides.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 May 2022)

> WayneL





> It's true that there is a correlation between high dairy intake and hi incidence of osteoporosis.



Yep, and then the dairy industry fund campaigns that use osteoporosis as a reason for people to consume even more dairy, even though they know that populations with higher dairy intake suffer higher rates of osteoporosis.


Value Collector said:


> The best thing to do to prevent osteoporosis is to get your calcium by eating vegetables and leafy greens and resistance exercise like weights or even swimming.




Both of you gentlemen need to widen your research methods.
From  Australian Institute of health and Welfare


> Risk factors associated with the development of osteoporosis include increasing age, sex, family history of the condition, low vitamin D levels, low intake of calcium, low body weight, smoking, excess alcohol consumption, physical inactivity, long-term corticosteroid use and reduced oestrogen level (Ebeling et al. 2013).



No mention of dairy in there.


> How common is osteoporosis?​Generally, osteoporosis is under-diagnosed. Because osteoporosis has no overt symptoms, it is often not diagnosed until a fracture occurs. It is therefore difficult to determine the true prevalence of the condition (that is, the number of people with the condition). Information about 'diagnosed cases' is likely to underestimate the actual prevalence of the condition.
> 
> An estimated 924,000 Australians have osteoporosis, based on self-reported data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) 2017–18 National Health Survey (NHS) and 20% of people aged 75 years and over have osteoporosis (ABS 2018). This definition of osteoporosis includes people who had osteoporosis or osteopenia.
> 
> ...



So unless one takes the view that its a cumulative effect of dairy intake that causes osteoporsis , its hard to see any correlation other than being old and female.
One of the hypotheses put forward by the vegan   supporters is the the proposition that dairy foods contribute to osteoporosis by ‘acidifying’ our bodies. This claim is especially common in vegan-oriented alternative health media, but also comes up in other internet realms, including those with a Paleo orientation.
This article as well as This article both look at why this is incorrect.
From the second of these two articles


> For those who missed the articles, this hypothesis states that foods high in phosphate leave an ‘acid ash’ after digestion, thereby lowering serum pH. The body supposedly compensates for this and restores normal blood pH by stealing alkaline minerals (such as calcium) from the bones, thus decreasing bone density.
> Because of their phosphate content, milk and other dairy products are usually considered ‘acid-producing’ foods under this hypothesis. Thus, proponents claim that even though dairy contains calcium and other nutrients that can be used to build bone, dairy’s acidifying effect on the body outweighs its calcium content and results in a net loss of bone density.
> 
> Additionally, I came across a 2011 study that specifically addresses the dairy-acid balance-osteoporosis connection. They came to some interesting conclusions that I want to share with you all, and hopefully we can put this issue to rest.
> ...



Mick


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## divs4ever (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am an issues voter I have no clue what left or right wing even suppose to mean in 2022.



 not much anymore  , two paths to a totalitarian end 

 i remember a friends extended quote   ' great minds think alike , but fools never differ '  and sadly  our predestined emperors  seem to be officers on the Ship of Fools


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## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yep, and then the dairy industry fund campaigns that use osteoporosis as a reason for people to consume even more dairy, even though they know that populations with higher dairy intake suffer higher rates of osteoporosis.
> 
> 
> Both of you gentlemen need to widen your research methods.
> ...




What scientists find too often correlates to who funds scientists.

Food/nutrition science in particular seems to be historically corrupted by the farm lobby -:look at the "food pyramid" the modern western world was sold. Every school kids learnt it and those same school kids are probably suffering now because of it.


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## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yep, and then the dairy industry fund campaigns that use osteoporosis as a reason for people to consume even more dairy, even though they know that populations with higher dairy intake suffer higher rates of osteoporosis.
> 
> 
> Both of you gentlemen need to widen your research methods.
> ...



The link with dairy and osteoporosis is the calcium (and it’s malabsorption in diary form)

As the link you put up suggests, low calcium intake is a big risk factor for osteoporosis, so if you are lactose intolerant like 65% to 70% of the population are, then you will be suffering malabsorption of calcium (and any of the other vitamins and minerals) you eat along with the diary products.

This would be made worse if your solution to low calcium is to eat more diary.

However if you instead replace the dairy products with other foods that are naturally high in calcium, then you will absorb a lot more of it, especially because a lot of the vegetable based sources of calcium also have the other minerals and vitamins your body needs to absorb it.


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## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> What scientists find too often correlates to who funds scientists.
> 
> Food/nutrition science in particular seems to be historically corrupted by the farm lobby -:look at the "food pyramid" the modern western world was sold. Every school kids learnt it and those same school kids are probably suffering now because of it.



Yep, in Canada lobbyists went crazy because the school system tried to add some plant based sources of protein to the food pyramid.

As a vegan, the most common question I got asked when family and friends found out I was transitioning to a vegan diet was

1, But how will you get Protein?

2, But how will you get calcium without milk?

The meat and dairy industry has been very successful in marketing.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4970122


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## 3 hound (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, in Canada there was court cases because the school system tried to add some plant based sources of protein to the food pyramid.
> 
> As a vegan, the most common question I got asked when family and friends found out I was transitioning to a vegan diet was
> 
> ...




Vegans are just bad as any other vested interest group in the food industry trying to push their agenda and propaganda onto everyone else except there is a religious cult like vibe among vegans.


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## mullokintyre (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As a vegan, the most common question I got asked when family and friends found out I was transitioning to a vegan diet was



Ah, that explains everything.
I am sure its been said before, but correlation does not  mean the same as causation.
Mick


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## moXJO (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Dude keep up, the rain has either directly destroyed entire crops or the land is so wet that machinery had been unable to get in to harvest them again resulting in entire harvests left to rot. Even grazing on unimproved pastures is suffering.
> 
> Yes some will do well others will be completely wiped out coming off 10 years of drought they borrowed heavily expecting a good year to pay for all the drought debt - this was the last straw, many will never farm again.





We have the second biggest canola crop in history forecast. 
Wheat was records last and this financial year.

You want me to keep up?


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## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Vegans are just bad as any other vested interest group in the food industry trying to push their agenda and propaganda onto everyone else except there is a religious cult like vibe among vegans.



It wasn’t vegans doing anything, just the people in the school system trying to correct the out dated food pyramid to show that “protein” doesn’t just come from animals, and that calcium doesn’t just come from milk, which is kinda important to know, if only to inoculate people from asking silly questions latter in life.

Having lived on both sides, I can tell you it’s the meat eating side that is more cult like, meat eating is based on all sorts traditions and myths just like religion.

As far as “agendas” go, one side wants to push animal products for profit at the expense of both the animals and the humans, while the other side just wants to reduce the harm in the world for no profit, so they are not quite the same.


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## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Ah, that explains everything.
> I am sure its been said before, but correlation does not  mean the same as causation.
> Mick



Yep, correlation does not equal causation, but Diarrhoea and other symptoms of lactose intolerance does mean you won’t be absorbing the the nutrients in the foods you eat for a few hours.


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## moXJO (30 May 2022)

Also a record number of cattle in feed lots.


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## StockyGuy (30 May 2022)

Gotta admit that as a very lactose-tolerant vegan, dairy would be the first thing I'd start taking again if supply of my beloved B12 and D fortified soy, or something similar, became unavailable long term.

All the proud histories of vegetarians, the long lists of famous intellectuals and geniuses who were vegetarians, also the best society-level example of plant-based eating in the case of higher-caste Indians...... all of that was pretty much veganism with only the addition of dairy.

I find lacto-vegetarianism a respectable position, just not the ideal one for me with the current options I have.  Come ultimate, apocalyptic, food scarcity, we might all have to live off the land - fish, hunt etc, till we can get things up and running again.


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## Smurf1976 (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am an issues voter I have no clue what left or right wing even suppose to mean in 2022.



Thinking people sure, they look at issues individually and can't easily be pigeon holed.

There's many who don't however. Some do basically quote a political ideology word for word and no amount of facts, figures and reasoning will persuade them otherwise. Work out which ideology they're on and it's a bit like having a mix tape. If you've heard it before well you know what song comes next.


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## qldfrog (30 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Also a record number of cattle in feed lots.



Australia farming as good as can be,but world wide is a different matter,and food is a weapon.
Let's not forget that this is an engineered crisis.supply chain collapse is not due to covid but covid measures.
Same for fertiliser shortage,oil price etc no physical cause or hardly but political and geopolitical move.
Most famines are due to man made crisis and this remain true,and i am not talking CC here but war, governments decisions


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> We have the second biggest canola crop in history forecast.
> Wheat was records last and this financial year.
> 
> You want me to keep up?




Looking at charts averaged over a whole sector does not represent the lived experience of the devastation in localised areas due yo one in 100 year  flood events  following 10 years of drought - it's about being tone deaf and insensitive.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Gotta admit that as a very lactose-tolerant vegan, dairy would be the first thing I'd start taking again if supply of my beloved B12 and D fortified soy, or something similar, became unavailable long term.
> 
> All the proud histories of vegetarians, the long lists of famous intellectuals and geniuses who were vegetarians, also the best society-level example of plant-based eating in the case of higher-caste Indians...... all of that was pretty much veganism with only the addition of dairy.
> 
> I find lacto-vegetarianism a respectable position, just not the ideal one for me with the current options I have.  Come ultimate, apocalyptic, food scarcity, we might all have to live off the land - fish, hunt etc, till we can get things up and running again.



Lacto-vegetarian is certainly a much lower impact diet that full on meat eating.

How ever my uncle is a diary farmer, and 4 of my cousins work on diary farms, and there is a lot of standard practices in diary farms which I now realise is completely immoral when there a viable alternatives.


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## moXJO (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Looking at charts averaged over a whole sector does not represent the lived experience of the devastation in localised areas due yo one in 100 year  flood events  following 10 years of drought - it's about being tone deaf and insensitive.



I know the difficulties farmers face. But largely, when I make a comment, it's based on overall statistics.


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## moXJO (30 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Australia farming as good as can be,but world wide is a different matter,and food is a weapon.
> Let's not forget that this is an engineered crisis.supply chain collapse is not due to covid but covid measures.
> Same for fertiliser shortage,oil price etc no physical cause or hardly but political and geopolitical move.
> Most famines are due to man made crisis and this remain true,and i am not talking CC here but war, governments decisions



Supply chain is where its all falling to pieces. Multiple issues worldwide feeding into it.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Supply chain is where its all falling to pieces. Multiple issues worldwide feeding into it.




,'Supply chain issues" appears to becoming a catch all phrase that carries no information designed to stop and divert conversation. 

Be refreshing to see our media class be less satisfied with that as a response and dig a bit deeper into cause and effect.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Lacto-vegetarian is certainly a much lower impact diet that full on meat eating.
> 
> How ever my uncle is a diary farmer, and 4 of my cousins work on diary farms, and there is a lot of standard practices in diary farms which I now realise is completely immoral when there a viable alternatives.




I envisage a world where food animals can be raised sustainably and ethically in terms of animal welfare. I fully understand why people are disgusted with some practices that persist...in these cases moral outrage is more than justified.

I don't believe veganism is a solution to feed the human population.

If I can achieve anything of value with my life it will be to contribute something toward shifting practices and attitudes toward more sustainable and ethical food production. For me veganism is niche and not a general solution....not unlike how I view the mainstream solutions to renewable energies.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I envisage a world where food animals can be raised sustainably and ethically in terms of animal welfare. I fully understand why people are disgusted with some practices that persist...in these cases moral outrage is more than justified.
> 
> I don't believe veganism is a solution to feed the human population.
> 
> If I can achieve anything of value with my life it will be to contribute something toward shifting practices and attitudes toward more sustainable and ethical food production. For me veganism is niche and not a general solution....not unlike how I view the mainstream solutions to renewable energies.



I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.

I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.

I started slow, I first stopped buying pig flesh, then stopped cattle, then chicken, then fish and eventually went plant based.

I am not 100% vegan, because I will still eat things that contain honey some times like a musli bar, and I don’t really have a problem with people eating things like oysters or mussels because the don’t have brains, but apart from that I am plant based.

(I don’t eat mussels or oysters though, mainly because I think they are polluted with micro plastics)


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.
> 
> I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.
> 
> ...



A millions of animals die horrible deaths every year due to plant food production....why do your morals stop there?

Also find both interesting and convenient how you arbitrarily you draw the line with animals with brains - very anthropomorphic of you.


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## mullokintyre (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.



And of course Vegans don't have their own prejudices.


Value Collector said:


> I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.
> 
> I started slow, I first stopped buying pig flesh, then stopped cattle, then chicken, then fish and eventually went plant based.
> 
> ...



What do you think happens in the animal kingdom?
All those wildlife doumentaries showing the big feline predators chasing down killing and eating the cute antelopes, Zebras and warthogs.
You don't think the prey suffer at all?
Its the natural world, humans are at the top of the food chain and have their choice.
If you don't want to eat part of the food chain, thats your choice, but thats a first world choice available to wealthy individuals who preach their superiority.
 For the vast majority, tis dog eats dog, so to speak.
Mick


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And of course Vegans don't have their own prejudices.
> 
> What do you think happens in the animal kingdom?
> All those wildlife doumentaries showing the big feline predators chasing down killing and eating the cute antelopes, Zebras and warthogs.
> ...



Well almost all Vegans, like me started out as Meat eaters so we understand your side and the arguments you make because we used to think exactly as you do, so we understand both sides a lot more than some one who hasn’t lived it and done the research.

I spent the first 35 years of my life eating meat, and used to think Vegans were crazy, I used hunt goats and pigs, in summer I spear fished almost every week end I free and wasn’t away with the Army some where, also as I said I come from a family with diary and sheep farming operations, I have sheered sheep etc.

So don’t think I have grown up as some sheltered vegan hippie, Before I became vegan I spent a long timing arguing against the “Crazy Vegans”, but the more I looked into it, and the more I looked at my past with fresh eyes, I realised I was wrong and they were right so I did what any intellectually honest person would do and I started making changes.

I have probably heard (and used myself) all the arguments you are likely to use against veganism and they are all bunk.

For example your argument above is just an appeal to nature, but the obvious answer to that is that just because cruelty happens in nature doesn’t mean we as humans have to add to it, in fact our society Would operate a lot worse if we took our morals from what happens in nature.

If you want to justify your actions with nature then nothing is of limits, eg rape, theft, murder etc are all common in nature, but we all agree they are good.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> A millions of animals die horrible deaths every year due to plant food production....why do your morals stop there?



Yep, that’s true but as I discussed above a large proportion of crops are raised to feed animals in factory farms, eg only 6% of soybeans are eaten humans the bulk are eaten by chicken, pigs and cattle in factory farms.

So if you want to reduce the impact of crop farming, then you should eat less meat.

When you eat a piece of bacon, instead of a piece of toast, that pig you ate (and it’s mother) had to eat probably the equivalent of a whole loaf of bread worth of grain.

So you aren’t just forcing a pig and it’s mother to live in hell, and then be killed at 6 months old, you are also contributing a lot more to the impact of cropping than you would if you just ate the crops directly.

That’s also one of the reasons I doubt actively avoid honey, even though honey isn’t technically vegan, I do think it’s lower impact that sugar cane farming, so I don’t avoid it.


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## JohnDe (30 May 2022)

reading yesterdays and todays debate on the eating habits of humans has been a blast.

I reckon my household has similar 21st century eating habits of the world. 
I'll eat almost anything, though most of my meals are vegetable based, I eat meat around twice a week. My wife is a pescatarian. 
Our son turned vegetarian 4 or 5 years ago, tested veganism for a short time but enjoys his cheese too much. He was partially lactose intolerant as a child, small amounts was fine but not daily (caused his asthma to flare up, which he no longer has). Now he is a vegetarian 99% of the time but has indulged a few times in the past few months. 
My daughter is like her dad, but often comments that we don't have enough animal protein. 
My wife's teenage niece lives with us and is a vegan and has been for about 5 years. She does not stray from it.

You'd think cooking for all would be a problem, but mostly it is not. I grew up in an Italian household and most of our meals were based on the seasons and from the garden, vegetables was the biggest part of our meals, eggs and grains, and then meats and fish. I enjoy cooking, so when I do the family meals I'll modify dishes so that everyone can eat it. If I'm using animal protein I'll either separate part of it and cook two dishes. On some occasions the Vegan will miss out, because cooking three meals is possible and I have done it but I've explained that it is not going to be a regular chore. and so our vegan resident cooks for herself occasionally. 

Life's not that hard. We can eat whatever we like and people can have different opinions, shar them but don't preach them.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, that’s true but as I discussed above a large proportion of crops are raised to feed animals in factory farms, eg only 6% of soybeans are eaten humans the bulk are eaten by chicken, pigs and cattle in factory farms.
> 
> So if you want to reduce the impact of crop farming, then you should eat less meat.
> 
> ...




So you are not against killing of animals for your food production at all. By your morals it shouldn't matter if it was one or one million.

Your moral argument fails, you are a hypocrite.

I am a hypocrite as well but I know it.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> So you are not against killing of animals for your food production at all. By your morals it shouldn't matter if it was one or one million.
> 
> Your moral argument fails, you are a hypocrite.
> 
> I am a hypocrite as well but I know it.




Did you actually want to discuss this in a civilised way, of are you just going to put up a straw man argument and then call names?

I (and vegans in general) fully understand that in the process of raising crops some animals will be harmed, that is kind of unavoidable in some ways, it’s a bit like some animals will be hit by cars some times, but we shouldn’t go out of our way to run over animals.

To answer your question I would say we should farm crops in the lowest impact way we can to reduce the harm, while also understanding that nothing is zero harm.

So if we know that raising crops has ethical and environmental impacts, we shouldn’t also waste them by putting them into factory farms, and we should limit all food waste as much as possible.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Did you actually want to discuss this in a civilised way, of are you just going to put up a straw man argument and then call names?
> 
> I (and vegans in general) fully understand that in the process of raising crops some animals will be harmed, that is kind of unavoidable in some ways, it’s a bit like some animals will be hit by cars some times, but we shouldn’t go out of our way to run over animals.
> 
> ...



Your argument above is also equally valid for food animal production. 

I don't know why you can't see you are only different by degrees.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> For example your argument above is just an appeal to nature,




An appeal to nature is logically valid unless you can demonstrate that we are supernatural.

Vegans are also animals and your existence equates to a lot of energy  consumption, death, cruelty and destruction.

Buddhists have recognised this for centuries. Vegans (what I am getting from you at least) seem to be in denial about it and think they are above it and above nature.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Your argument above is also equally valid for food animal production.
> 
> I don't know why you can't see you are only different by degrees.




I don’t really understand what you are saying, my point is that I choose a plant based diet because it is lower impact than a diet based on animals, I have never claimed it’s zero impact.

Is you argument that because a plant based diet is not zero impact then it’s not worth switching? Because that seems silly.

If one system is having a huge negative impact, an alternative doesn’t have to be zero impact for it to be worth while switching, it just has to be better.




> Vegans are also animals and your existence equates to a lot of energy consumption, death, cruelty and destruction.
> 
> Buddhists have recognised this for centuries. Vegans (what I am getting from you at least) seem to be in denial about it and think they are above it and above nature.




What exactly do you think I am in denial about?

I have admitted straight out that plant based foods have an impact, and that they are not zero cruelty, as I said going plant based just has less cruelty.

You yourself said that you want to help make a change in the way food is made, what changes are you making? How are you trying to reduce animal suffering in the food system.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t really understand what you are saying, my point is that I choose a plant based diet because it is lower impact than a diet based on animals, I have never claimed it’s zero impact.
> 
> Is you argument that because a plant based diet is not zero impact then it’s not worth switching? Because that seems silly.
> 
> ...




Fair questions, roughly speaking; I am moving toward personal involvement in the raising and killing of the animals I consume (in practice it's logistically problematic),  in the appropriate venues I promote low stress animal handling methods. I am heavily involved in motivational based working dog training. I confront cruelty directly. I respectfully spread information about sustainable methods, I intervene in some personal crisis situations to support and shift to more holistic approaches that include the individual as a valuable part of the whole farming system.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Fair questions, roughly speaking; I am moving toward personal involvement in the raising and killing of the animals I consume (in practice it's logistically problematic),  in the appropriate venues I promote low stress animal handling methods. I am heavily involved in motivational based working dog training. I confront cruelty directly. I respectfully spread information about sustainable methods, I intervene in some personal crisis situations to support and shift to more holistic approaches that include the individual as a valuable part of the whole farming system.



So what does all that mean in practice? Are you planning to avoid all animals products except the ones you kill yourself? 

It sounds like you recognise that there are cruelty and suffering issues with the current system, do you really think that the system you are talking about eg. “Killing your own” is a scalable system?

Sorry, to load you up with questions, but since you already accept that the animal agriculture industry is full of suffering, why would you be mad at me for wanting to avoid it and instead use my money on plant based foods?


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

Just incase people are wondering why I am against animal agriculture, check out this video.

This video is from an RSPCA approved slaughter house in Melbourne, that kills the pigs by choking them in a carbon dioxide gas chamber, you can see that it is not a quick death, and unfortunately this is just the end of a long line of suffering.

We don’t even treat our worst criminals like we treat these innocent animals.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So what does all that mean in practice? Are you planning to avoid all animals products except the ones you kill yourself?




It's not a simple thing to set up but that is indeed the plan, I am not there yet and not sure if I will ever have the means to pull it off 100% but gonna give it a good try



Value Collector said:


> It sounds like you recognise that there are cruelty and suffering issues with the current system, do you really think that the system you are talking about eg. “Killing your own” is a scalable system?



I thought I was abundantly clear that I recognise and loath the cruelty in current systems and practices. I am not trying scale anything more than a scale of one. That one would be me (see first comment). 


Value Collector said:


> Sorry, to load you up with questions, but since you already accept that the animal agriculture industry is full of suffering, why would you be mad at me for wanting to avoid it and instead use my money on plant based foods?




Firstly I'm not mad at anyone, it's comments on a frikkin internet forum. You are not important enough to me to get mad at.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I thought I was abundantly clear that I recognise and loath the cruelty in current systems and practices.




But you are still currently supporting that system financially by buying their products right?

I think if you actually spend some time thinking about it, you will realise that moving to a more plant based diet is one of the quickest and simplest ways the average person can reduce the cruelty and suffering they cause, so if it’s something that you care about, maybe ease up on making disparaging comments about plant based diets and veganism, and maybe learn a bit more about how you can increase the portion of your diet derived from plants.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> But you are still currently supporting that system financially by buying their products right?
> 
> I think if you actually spend some time thinking about it, you will realise that moving to a more plant based diet is one of the quickest and simplest ways the average person can reduce the cruelty and suffering they cause, so if it’s something that you care about, maybe ease up on making disparaging comments about plant based diets and veganism, and maybe learn a bit more about how you can increase the portion of your diet derived from plants.




Geez this is getting repetitive, I support some aspects - I have leather boots for work which are mandatory. Like you made a long response about reducing your impact, that applies to me and others as well. I have gave a list of what I am doing about it.  I have said all along we are both hypocrites, I just seem to be aware of my own hypocrisy than you yours.

i haven't started to make disparaging comments about plant based diets in fact I haven't mentioned anything about nutrition at all. Are you even paying attention or are you just playing back all the standard counter arguments you have internalized regardless of what I say.


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## Value Collector (30 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Geez this is getting repetitive, I support some aspects - I have leather boots for work which are mandatory. Like you made a long response about reducing your impact, that applies to me and others as well. I have gave a list of what I am doing about it.  I have said all along we are both hypocrites, I just seem to be aware of my own hypocrisy than you yours.



I don’t believe I am a hypocrite, I say I want to reduce my impact and that’s what I am doing.

You however say you loath an industry, but you still support it with your dollars, so I will accept your view that you are a hypocrite.

You say you want to reduce your impact, but your way of doing it seems pretty in ineffective, you even admit it’s not likely to succeed.

You are of course free to keep doing what ever you want, as I said though if you truly loath animal cruelty, maybe just continue thinking about it and working out effective ways to stop supporting it.

The answer to slavery wasn’t to think of better ways to treat slaves, it was endings slavery.


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## 3 hound (30 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t believe I am a hypocrite, I say I want to reduce my impact and that’s what I am doing.
> 
> You however say you loath an industry, but you still support it with your dollars, so I will accept your view that you are a hypocrite.
> 
> ...




Slavery hasn't ended, it's alive and well as we speak. More misinformation from someone in a privileged position.

Your other points have already been addressed ad nauseum. This is why vegans get called cultists because you repeat the same blind mantras endlessly and seem out of touch with reality.

Have a nice evening.


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## Value Collector (31 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Slavery hasn't ended, it's alive and well as we speak. More misinformation from someone in a privileged position.
> 
> Your other points have already been addressed ad nauseum. This is why vegans get called cultists because you repeat the same blind mantras endlessly and seem out of touch with reality.
> 
> Have a nice evening.



This is why so many people here have blocked you, because instead of having a proper discussion you try to obscure the conversation with red herrings and purposefully don't dress peoples points.

I think I will join the ranks that have blocked you for a while.


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## Sean K (31 May 2022)

Editorial in The Fin:

Cave-in over Ukraine a bad idea​
UN World Food Program estimates that 50 million people around the world are at risk of starvation as a result of Vladimir Putin’s blockade of Black Sea ports adds another grim dimension to his invasion of Ukraine. The WFP notes 20 million tonnes of grain is rotting in silos and commercial vessels around Ukraine, a leading wheat producer. Mr Putin’s onslaught must be stopped. But the impact of the war on grain supplies and global inflation is no justification for Henry Kissinger’s call at the World Economic Forum in Davos for the West to pressure Ukraine into ceding territory to Russia in return for a peace deal.

Dr Kissinger wants Ukraine’s elected government to accept Russia’s illegal 2014 annexation of Crimea and agree to Russian de facto annexation of Donetsk, Luhansk and perhaps Kherson in the Donbas region, where some of the heaviest fighting of the 3½-month war is taking place. After fighting valiantly in defence of their country there is little chance Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and his people will agree. But Dr Kissinger is not alone in his views on a peace deal with Mr Putin. The Russian despot has cultivated support among populist right-wing parties in Hungary, France and Italy. US polls show more Republicans dislike Joe Biden than Mr Putin. The New York Times has urged Mr Biden to counsel Kyiv not to “chase after an illusory win”. In any conflict, a negotiated peace settlement is desirable. But Western intervention to persuade Mr Zelensky to submit to Russian territorial demands would play into Mr Putin’s hands, appeasing an oppressive power. It would bolster him to make new demands against neighbouring states in his pursuit of re-creating the Soviet empire. The war is having a significant impact beyond Ukraine. The threat to food supplies and soaring energy costs are alarming. But the world will pay a heavy price if Kyiv is forced to give in to Mr Putin’s demands. As European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen said in contradicting Dr Kissinger: “Ukraine must win this war, and Putin’s aggression must be a strategic failure.” The West must maintain cohesion in backing Ukraine.


----------



## moXJO (31 May 2022)

Sean K said:


> Editorial in The Fin:
> 
> Cave-in over Ukraine a bad idea​
> UN World Food Program estimates that 50 million people around the world are at risk of starvation as a result of Vladimir Putin’s blockade of Black Sea ports adds another grim dimension to his invasion of Ukraine. The WFP notes 20 million tonnes of grain is rotting in silos and commercial vessels around Ukraine, a leading wheat producer. Mr Putin’s onslaught must be stopped. But the impact of the war on grain supplies and global inflation is no justification for Henry Kissinger’s call at the World Economic Forum in Davos for the West to pressure Ukraine into ceding territory to Russia in return for a peace deal.
> ...



Agree that Russia needs to be ground down and take the L.


----------



## qldfrog (31 May 2022)

Sean K said:


> Editorial in The Fin:
> 
> Cave-in over Ukraine a bad idea​
> UN World Food Program estimates that 50 million people around the world are at risk of starvation as a result of Vladimir Putin’s blockade of Black Sea ports adds another grim dimension to his invasion of Ukraine. The WFP notes 20 million tonnes of grain is rotting in silos and commercial vessels around Ukraine, a leading wheat producer. Mr Putin’s onslaught must be stopped. But the impact of the war on grain supplies and global inflation is no justification for Henry Kissinger’s call at the World Economic Forum in Davos for the West to pressure Ukraine into ceding territory to Russia in return for a peace deal.
> ...



We should fight the Russians to the last Ukrainian, Sri Lankan,etc etc


----------



## divs4ever (1 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> We should fight the Russians to the last Ukrainian, Sri Lankan,etc etc



 well they remember what happened when the Vietnamese  sent back body-bag , after body-bag  

 so the politicians will sacrifice anybody except their voter's children


----------



## 3 hound (1 June 2022)

Feed and fuel your own citizens before sanctions.


----------



## qldfrog (1 June 2022)

3 hound said:


> Feed and fuel your own citizens before sanctions.



Put your country and citizen before geopolitical games of the Reset masters.Should be valid for every country on earth


----------



## divs4ever (1 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Put your country and citizen before geopolitical games of the Reset masters.Should be valid for every country on earth



 doesn't look like a popular concept in the current era  ( in many nations )

 maybe more needs to be disrupted before the restructure


----------



## JohnDe (1 June 2022)

*The Australian Global Food Forum 2022*

The 2022 Global Food Forum in partnership with Visy and supported by the Wall Street Journal, will return to Melbourne on Wednesday 1 June 2022. The Forum will present a world-class line up of industry experts to debate the critical issues facing Australia’s $150 billion agribusiness sector, and take a look forward to the next 10 years of Australian agribusiness.






Global Food Forum
Speakers​
Anthony Pratt
Executive Chairman, Visy

Hayley Morris
Executive Director, Morris Group

Brent Eastwood
Chief Executive Officer, JBS Australia

Anna Speer
Managing Director Greenstock, Woolworths

Brett Hosking
Chairman, GrainGrowers Australia

Tess Camm
Managing Director, Signature Beef

David Williams
Managing Director, Kidder Williams

John McKillop
Chief Executive Officer, Hancock Agriculture and S Kidman and Co

Robert Iervasi
Group Chief Executive Officer, Asahi Beverages

Anthony Di Pietro
Chairman, Melbourne Victory Football Club Group CEO, LaManna Premier Group

Darren Thomas
Group Managing Director, Thomas Foods Internationals

Paul Thompson
Managing Director, Select Harvests

Danny Thomas
Senior Director, LAWD Rural

James Schultz
Chief Executive Officer, Green Collar

Kristi Woolrych
KFC Australia

Becs Willson
Managing Director, Proterra (Australia) Agricultural Fund

Michael Simonetta
Chief Executive Officer, Perfection Fresh Group

Steven Cain
Chief Executive Officer, Coles

Barry Irvin
Executive Chairman, Bega Cheese Group

Ken Chapman
Head of Capital Markets, ASX

Michael Whitehead
Head of Food and Agri Insights, ANZ

Darren O'Brien
President Australia/NZ and Japan, Mondelez International

Martijn Wilder
Global Co-Founder and Senior Partner, Pollination Investment and Advisory Group

The Hon Andrew Robb
Chair, Project Steering Committee, Australian Agrifood Data Exchange

Michelle Gortan
Chief Executive Officer, Macdoch Foundation

Arianna Sippel
Senior Manager GrowAg, Agri Futures

Jonathan Brown
Ambassador, Dairy Australia

Markus Kahlbetzer
Chief Executive Officer, BridgeLane

Fiona Simson
President, National Farmers' Federation

Brendan Foran
Chief Executive Officer, Greening Australia


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## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> *The Australian Global Food Forum 2022*
> 
> The 2022 Global Food Forum in partnership with Visy and supported by the Wall Street Journal, will return to Melbourne on Wednesday 1 June 2022. The Forum will present a world-class line up of industry experts to debate the critical issues facing Australia’s $150 billion agribusiness sector, and take a look forward to the next 10 years of Australian agribusiness.
> 
> ...



Will not be attending, pissed off as I wasn't asked to speak.
Mick


----------



## Dona Ferentes (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Will not be attending, pissed off as I wasn't asked to speak.
> Mick



sad to see they could only muster the B list !!


----------



## wayneL (1 June 2022)

divs4ever said:


> doesn't look like a popular concept in the current era  ( in many nations )
> 
> maybe more needs to be disrupted before the restructure



I don't think most plebeians are even aware of the game TBH.

And the reset Masters will just blame something else when there is more disruption.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

And it 


Dona Ferentes said:


> sad to see they could only muster the B list !!



And just to make  it honest, it was not about the money.
I had asked my manager to waive the standard fee, didn't even ask for travelling  costs.
Mick


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## Dona Ferentes (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And just to make  it honest, it was not about the money.
> I had asked my manager to waive the standard fee, didn't even ask for travelling  costs.



So, no altruistic _Gender Rebalance _signalling, Mick ?


----------



## divs4ever (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And it
> 
> And just to make  it honest, it was not about the money.
> I had asked my manager to waive the standard fee, didn't even ask for travelling  costs.
> Mick



 you probably needed to GIVE THEM money  , some 'non-profit ' groups are like that


----------



## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> So, no altruistic _Gender Rebalance _signalling, Mick ?



I have always hung to the left Dona, so for me  a little Gender rebalancing would require some corrective surgery on the family jewels.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (1 June 2022)

Australia has been good at turning adversity and disadvantage into an opportunity, time to do it again -

"_Australia happens to be one of the world’s big ‘food baskets’,” Mr Pratt will tell the forum, being staged in Melbourne_."



> *Time for Australia to step up as Ukraine war causes food shortage: Anthony Pratt*
> 
> The time has come for Australia to step up to its responsibility to help feed the world in the wake of the shocks and disruptions to the global food system flowing from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, according to packaging magnate Anthony Pratt.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dona Ferentes (1 June 2022)

and another-y

_Singapore is bracing for a shortage of its de-facto national dish, chicken rice, as* major supplier Malaysia halts all chicken exports* from Wednesday._

_Restaurants and street stalls in the city-state are faced with hiking prices of the staple food or shutting down altogether as their supplies dwindle from neighbouring Malaysia, where production has been disrupted by a global feed shortage.

Singapore, although among the wealthiest countries in Asia, has a heavily urbanised land area of just 730 square km and relies largely on imported food, energy and other goods. __Nearly all of its chicken is imported: 34 per cent from Malaysia, 49 per cent from Brazil and 12 per cent from the United States, according to data from Singapore Food Agency _....

_Malaysia, itself facing soaring prices, has decided to halt chicken exports until local production and costs stabilise. __Prices have been capped since February at 8.90 ringgit ($2.80) per bird and a subsidy of 729.43 million ringgit has been set aside for poultry farmers.

Chicken feed typically consists of grain and soybean, which Malaysia imports. But the government is having to consider alternatives amid a global feed shortage._

_Lower-quality feed means the birds are not growing as fast as usual, slowing down the entire supply chain, said [a] poultry farmer_


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## JohnDe (4 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The link with dairy and osteoporosis is the calcium (and it’s malabsorption in diary form)
> 
> As the link you put up suggests, low calcium intake is a big risk factor for osteoporosis, so if you are lactose intolerant like 65% to 70% of the population are, then you will be suffering malabsorption of calcium (and any of the other vitamins and minerals) you eat along with the diary products.
> 
> ...




I thought of you when I read this - 
Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn't drink milk​


----------



## divs4ever (5 June 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well they remember what happened when the Vietnamese  sent back body-bag , after body-bag
> 
> so the politicians will sacrifice anybody except their voter's children



 i meant their OWN children  ( i must have been feeling generous that day )


----------



## Telamelo (26 June 2022)

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/vladimir-putin-hits-new-low-with-disturbing-act/news-story/f868c574828cab5158a2c6918a627963


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 June 2022)

Basically Russia has never cared about hunger, that of others or it's own population. 

Stalin caused huge famines in Ukraine and the Urals, Putin will repeat. The Romanovs did it when they were Czars. 

The average Russian peasant is used to it happening, and lives on vodka and reflected glory from the Empire.

It is to be hoped that the orcs will be stopped at Kyiv or if not further West when Putin decides to go all in. 

gg


----------



## noirua (27 June 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Basically Russia has never cared about hunger, that of others or it's own population.
> 
> Stalin caused huge famines in Ukraine and the Urals, Putin will repeat. The Romanovs did it when they were Czars.
> 
> ...



If Putin wins his war in Ukraine all he will care about is getting cash for all the wheat being produced and in storage.  So he needs to push hard to get in an exporting position before the next harvest comes in. Otherwise they will have to pile the harvest on and alongside last years.




__





						Harvest time in Ukraine | Farms.com
					





					www.farms.com
				




So Putin is now pushed to move on Kiev and surrounding areas. He needs to bring long range rockets into play and supply Belarus to attack from the West.

It looks as if Germany, France, Italy and Spain are wobbling and need to pump about $100 billion in to save Ukraine's
 bacon.

From the point of view of lookers on who are gambling on the eventual outcome only, something has to give during  July and August as recession gets even closer.

Their will be some winners and many losers as the crunch comes and last years supplies of wheat rot once we reach December.


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## qldfrog (27 June 2022)

noirua said:


> If Putin wins his war in Ukraine all he will care about is getting cash for all the wheat being produced and in storage.  So he needs to push hard to get in an exporting position before the next harvest comes in. Otherwise they will have to pile the harvest on and alongside last years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Considering India and China are not boycotting Russia, with a third of the world population or so, i doubt Russian wheat will rot.
They can and will use it and stockpile more recent harvests for next year when the situation will be more extreme as the oil and fertiliser crisis hir6s production


----------



## qldfrog (27 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Considering India and China are not boycotting Russia, with a third of the world population or so, i doubt Russian wheat will rot.
> They can and will use it and stockpile more recent harvests for next year when the situation will be more extreme as the oil and fertiliser crisis hir6s production



And France has lost majority government with far left and or nationalist right in control so Ukraine will be the last of Macron problems.
Do not expect any initiative there.


----------



## noirua (27 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Considering India and China are not boycotting Russia, with a third of the world population or so, i doubt Russian wheat will rot.
> They can and will use it and stockpile more recent harvests for next year when the situation will be more extreme as the oil and fertiliser crisis hir6s production



I meant the Ukrainian wheat in storage.


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## qldfrog (27 June 2022)

noirua said:


> I meant the Ukrainian wheat in storage.



Yes, high chance it rots.Ukraine does not want to remove mines in Odessa supposedly to avoid Russia landing there..fair enough.. Turkey was trying to negotiate that.
What is more surprising is that every tiktok star and his her dog,especially EU leaders or Angelina Jolie can take a train to Kiev Central station but supposedly wheat can not leave the country?
Let you think about that..
But the next Ukrainian crop is gone that is a given, and substantial


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## 3 hound (27 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> What is more surprising is that every tiktok star and his her dog,especially EU leaders or Angelina Jolie can take a train to Kiev Central station but supposedly wheat can not leave the country?




A kid in my small rural  town is now in Ukraine sending pics and stories back thru every social media outlet to raise money for the Ukrainians...these people grew up when gore.com and LiveLeak were active, they should know what happens you end up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people, Nucking Futs.


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## Dona Ferentes (5 September 2022)

If fertiliser enhances crop yield, then Europe is in for another blow


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## divs4ever (5 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> What is more surprising is that every tiktok star and his her dog,especially EU leaders or Angelina Jolie can take a train to Kiev Central station but supposedly wheat can not leave the country?
> Let you think about that..




easy to explain  , Belarus is sanctioned  ( by the EU and US ) so that took care of rail transport , Ukraine   defensively mined the major  ports  cutting sea transport  and transporting weapons and ammunition +  fleeing refugees  took care of the rest  the bulk transport 

 unless  somebody can prove  Russia  hypnotically programmed  stupidity in the Ukrainian regime  , i can't see how Russia is to blame for anything more than profiteering 

 if they REALLY wanted to export the wheat  a 2kg bag of wheat in the luggage of every refugee would have probably solved the problem 

 more efficient would have been removing the cash that is fleeing to foreign banks  off the  trains , but i bet the regime would not permit that


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## mullokintyre (16 September 2022)

Although China  is the largest producer of rice, most of it goes to feed its own population.
The no 2 producer, India, is the largest exporter  of rice by a long way, exporting more rice than the next four nations combined.
Indeed, India provides about 40% of all the  rice exports. (source Statista Rice Exports).
Hence , the alarm in Asian net importing countries to hear that India has severely restricted exports of rice, and introduced tariffs on other exports.
From Bloombergs


> India, the world’s biggest rice shipper, restricted exports of key varieties that mainly go toward feeding Asia and Africa, threatening to rattle global crop markets and exacerbate food inflation and hunger.
> 
> The government has imposed a 20% duty on shipments of white and brown rice, and banned broken rice sales abroad. The curbs apply to roughly 60% of India’s overall rice exports, according to Bloomberg calculations.
> The moves by India, which accounts for 40% of the global rice trade, will put further pressure on countries that are struggling with worsening hunger and soaring food inflation. Rice is a staple food for about half of the world’s population, with Asia producing and consuming about 90% of global supply.
> ...



With yields falling due to high fertiliser prices, things are just getting worse.
Australia is unlikely to benefit much, as we sit at no 57 in world rice producers, with a paltry 260,000 tonnes versus India's 18 Million tonnes.
Might be tough few years at this rate.


----------



## eskys (17 September 2022)

Interesting to see consumer staples was up last night when it had been in the red lately. From my lay person's observation in the past: fear and uncertainty drives this sector. But oddly enough, real estate was up a tad too. Thought higher interest rates are bad for real estate.


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## Dona Ferentes (17 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Although China  is the largest producer of rice, most of it goes to feed its own population.
> The no 2 producer, India, is the largest exporter  of rice by a long way, exporting more rice than the next four nations combined.
> Indeed, India provides about 40% of all the  rice exports. (source Statista Rice Exports).
> Hence , the alarm in Asian net importing countries to hear that India has severely restricted exports of rice, and introduced tariffs on other exports.




And the premium, exported, foreign currency earning basmati might become unavailable or, at the very least, become much more expensive.



> India accounted for 65% of the international trade in basmati rice, while Pakistan accounted for the remaining 35%. Many countries use domestically grown basmati rice crops; however, basmati is geographically exclusive to certain districts of India and Pakistan.



The best basmati comes from the Punjab in Pakistan, in my opinion, and this area has been severly impacted this year by floods.









						Basmati - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## basilio (29 October 2022)

Back to Oz.  This story on how glass house vege farming is taking off is intriguing.
As  the impacts of CC  spread perhaps this will be the new normal ?









						How two veterans of Melbourne's wholesale fruit and vegetable market created Australia’s largest glasshouse
					

Mark Millis and Warren Nichol started Flavorite as part of a quest to grow a tastier tomato. Almost 30 years on, their sons are growing their empire and enjoying the fruits of their labour.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (1 November 2022)

The logic of politicians never ceases to amaze me.
At a time when food costs are soaring,  Jacinta Ahearn has effectively  put a tax on the production of meat.
Might be great for the vegaearians and vegans, but for the rest of the  world who are omnivores, it will add just that little bit more difficulty.
From The evil climate deniers at Murdoch press


> It seems inconceivable that at a time of hyperinflation and global unrest, any government would deliberately destabilise the agricultural sector by introducing policies that would increase costs to primary producers, reduce production, and fuel price increases. Yet that’s what Jacinda Ardern’s Labour government is planning to do.
> Announcing her plan, the Prime Minister boasted: “No other country in the world has yet developed a system for pricing and reducing agricultural emissions, so our farmers are set to benefit from being first movers. Cutting emissions will help New Zealand farmers to not only be the best in the world but the best for the world; gaining a price premium for climate friendly agricultural products while also helping to boost export earnings.”



She does not explain how pricing the emissions  reduces those emissions, unless of course its a tacit admission that some producers will go out of business and thus there will be less emissions.
How being the first movers provides a benefit is not explained, nor is the idea that a tax on a product helps to boost international earnings.
But hey, she is a politician.
They can say anything they like.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (1 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The logic of politicians never ceases to amaze me.
> At a time when food costs are soaring,  Jacinta Ahearn has effectively  put a tax on the production of meat.
> Might be great for the vegaearians and vegans, but for the rest of the  world who are omnivores, it will add just that little bit more difficulty.
> From The evil climate deniers at Murdoch press
> ...




I'm not a fan of the NZ PM, but I see that a politician is like any other person, they have parents, went to school, have a family, care enough to get involved with decision making. If their decisions are wrong, and enough people don't agree, they lose their job.

And since the topic is NZ political decision's I'm not to bothered about what they do with their tax system.

However, my attention was stirred on the mention of meat due to wide range of interests. It is a proven fact that we humans are eating more meat than ever before in our history, it is also proven that high consumption of meat causes many health problems including cancers.

My background diet is Mediterranean, I grew up with meals heavily based on seasonal vegetables for all our meals, meat dishes were only once or twice a week, depending on the season. As the family grew and we became wealthier meat consumption increased, and so did our waistlines.

At 51 years of age, I was diagnosed with Crohn's, at 54 it is in remission. All through diet. I cut red meat consumption down by 3/4, milk by about the same, I basically went back to my childhood Mediterranean diet.

Meat seems expensive but it is so easy and convenient to make a meal that is not only tasty but also filling, that modern society has change its eating habits from healthy to un-healthy in just over 40 years.

If the NZ PM wants to reduce meat production and consumption, and the people vote her in again, well that is how democracy works. Everyone gets a vote, the majority wins, life goes on and we move on.

I love meat, BBQ's, hams, bacon and so on. I just eat a lot less of it these days and become a lot healthier and wealthier at the same time.

Meat consumption is highest across high-income countries (with the largest meat-eaters in Australia, consuming around 116 kilograms per person in 2013). The average European and North American consumes nearly 80 kilograms  and more than 110 kilograms, respectively.​


> On average, participants who reported consuming meat regularly (three or more times per week) had more adverse health behaviours and characteristics than participants who consumed meat less regularly, and most of the positive associations observed for meat consumption and health risks were substantially attenuated after adjustment for body mass index (BMI). In multi-variable adjusted Cox regression models corrected for multiple testing, higher consumption of unprocessed red and processed meat combined was associated with higher risks of ischaemic heart disease, pneumonia, diverticular disease, colon polyps, and diabetes; results were similar for unprocessed red meat and processed meat intakes separately.
> Higher consumption of unprocessed red meat alone was associated with a lower risk of iron deficiency anaemia.
> Higher poultry meat intake was associated with higher risks of gastro-oesophageal reflux disease, gastritis and duodenitis, diverticular disease, gallbladder disease, and diabetes, and a lower IDA risk.
> 
> ...


----------



## divs4ever (1 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Although China  is the largest producer of rice, most of it goes to feed its own population.
> The no 2 producer, India, is the largest exporter  of rice by a long way, exporting more rice than the next four nations combined.
> Indeed, India provides about 40% of all the  rice exports. (source Statista Rice Exports).
> Hence , the alarm in Asian net importing countries to hear that India has severely restricted exports of rice, and introduced tariffs on other exports.
> ...



 i hold SGLLV ( bought in November 2021 ) so i hope you are wrong , but suspect you are correct 

 i noticed today all the 'plain-label ' rice has disappeared from the local supermarket shelves  ( repackaging coming , or all being put into premium products ?? )

 also watch the local fertilizer  producers/distributors ( including WES )  maybe Australia can climb a notch or two in the coming two years ( as producers of rice and fertilizer )


----------



## divs4ever (1 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> From The evil climate deniers at Murdoch press



 ??? 

 ole Rupert was the one leaning on Johnny Howard   to move away from National Party  values 

Rupert only mutters climate-denier stuff because that is where the uncontested AD revenue is ( why fight for  one-tenth  of the virtue-signalling  cash  , when you can get most of the  'outsiders'   cash )

 please note i did NOT debate  'evil '


----------



## basilio (1 November 2022)

I wonder how the floods across Oz are impacting on our grain crops ? And oil seed. And frankly all horticultural activities.

Already looks disastrous and we know there is still more rain to come.  Huge impact on local food supplies, Balance of Payments, stability of farming sector and of course actually feeding people here and overseas.









						Farmers should be harvesting the 'most expensive wheat crop ever' but many can only watch it go under
					

After fertiliser costs doubled and diesel hit $2.40 a litre, many wheat growers will lose this year's harvest to flooding, stirring concerns for the financial and emotional wellbeing of those heavily invested in the crop.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						BOM predicts more wild weather as hail, snow and heavy rain sets in across south-east Australia
					

A blast of air directly from the Antarctic has brought a November snowfall to Alpine areas and temperatures usually seen in June.




					www.abc.net.au


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## divs4ever (1 November 2022)

basilio said:


> I wonder how the floods across Oz are impacting on our grain crops ? And oil seed. And frankly all horticultural activities.
> 
> Already looks disastrous and we know there is still more rain to come.  Huge impact on local food supplies, Balance of Payments, stability of farming sector and of course actually feeding people here and overseas.
> 
> ...



 GNC  is predicting 'difficulties ' not disaster  , of course . GNC might be putting a happy spin on it 

 CGC might be another worth watching  for harvest commentary


----------



## qldfrog (1 November 2022)

divs4ever said:


> GNC  is predicting 'difficulties ' not disaster  , of course . GNC might be putting a happy spin on it
> 
> CGC might be another worth watching  for harvest commentary



rain is overall good for australia..years of great harvests..but maybe not this year; 
grass is growing like mad and cattle and wallabies/roos are happy


----------



## JohnDe (1 November 2022)

basilio said:


> I wonder how the floods across Oz are impacting on our grain crops ? And oil seed. And frankly all horticultural activities.
> 
> Already looks disastrous and we know there is still more rain to come.  Huge impact on local food supplies, Balance of Payments, stability of farming sector and of course actually feeding people here and overseas.
> 
> ...




The farmers are starting to call it a ‘green drought’. 
The farms with crops ready to harvest can’t be accessed because the ground is so saturated the machinery gets bogged.
Young crops can’t be maintained, fertiliser can’t be applied, disease & mildew is a concern.

WA & SA have been spared so far, this and what can be salvaged from the other states will help maintain a supply of food for domestic & exports, though the size will be limited.

The bonus is that our soil and underground water table will be replenished, allowing for some great crops in the future.

Which company stocks to purchase to take advantage?


----------



## JohnDe (3 November 2022)

Finally, some investment in much need Australian grain rail transport. I wonder if this has come about because of the issues in Europe, and Glencore/Viterra see an opportunity of more growth from Australia.



> *Grain giant flags rail return to Eyre Peninsula*
> 
> Grain exporter Viterra is working on a plan to revive Eyre Peninsula train transport with a new standard gauge railway linked to the national network, years after neglected local lines prompted a move to truck freight.
> 
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (3 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The farmers are starting to call it a ‘green drought’.
> The farms with crops ready to harvest can’t be accessed because the ground is so saturated the machinery gets bogged.
> Young crops can’t be maintained, fertiliser can’t be applied, disease & mildew is a concern.
> 
> ...



The country hour today had some interviews with farmers  around Rochester/Boort  in Victoria and they reckon  some areas are a total loss.
One bloke with 4,000 acres under crop says he will be lucky to get enough seed to plant next year.
Mick


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## qldfrog (4 November 2022)

Their ABC is starting putting the narrative in place








						Think food is too expensive? Experts say we're not even close to paying the true cost
					

We are paying more for it in the supermarkets and it's costing farmers more to provide it, but experts say it is not even close to the true price of producing food.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Basically, farners use free water and air, and pollute so they must pay, and so does the consumer.
The Reset program, see the WEF websites, has always been clear:
People will have to end up in cities, farmers will be dispossessed, big agro businesses a la google will take over food production worldwide and feed you worms and tofu meals.you will have nothing be happy and controlled.
Ireland, Netherlands and now nz are already forcing farm closure.
France for the first time is a net food importer 
There is no power more effective than owning food and water supply.
Food scarcity is a certitude when we sabotage fossil fuel production via a green agenda considering than in 2022, food is oil .
So without oil, current population starves.
The "conspiracy" view concludes that WEF plan a huge and quick population kill.i let you make you own view


----------



## Gringotts Bank (14 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The farmers are starting to call it a ‘green drought’.
> The farms with crops ready to harvest can’t be accessed because the ground is so saturated the machinery gets bogged.
> Young crops can’t be maintained, fertiliser can’t be applied, disease & mildew is a concern.
> 
> ...



_"Which company stocks to purchase to take advantage?"_

I s'pose futures:  wheat, soy, corn, sugar, coffee.

It looks very much like an engineered problem; a conspiracy.  But is it possible we engineer everything we experience, both individually and collectively?  We 'engineer' the WEF, Gates and the WHO.  Anyone know what I mean by that?  It's a bit new-agey.


----------



## divs4ever (15 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The farmers are starting to call it a ‘green drought’.
> The farms with crops ready to harvest can’t be accessed because the ground is so saturated the machinery gets bogged.
> Young crops can’t be maintained, fertiliser can’t be applied, disease & mildew is a concern.
> 
> ...



 depends on your time frame  , 

 you might  have some pain this year , but be grinning the next two 

 SHV normally benefits from a weak Aussie Dollar  ( i don;t hold SHV   currently )

 SGLLV MIGHT benefit from a weak currency  and more available water ( i hold SGLLV )

 NAM might benefit as well  , but is usually struggling  for reliable profits ( i do not hold NAM )

 i would have pointed to 'methane emitters' but there is an international war on them ( so only the 'special few'  will get real meat , if all goes to plan )


----------



## eskys (15 November 2022)

What about ELD, divs?


----------



## mullokintyre (15 November 2022)

eskys said:


> What about ELD, divs?



Took a big hit yesterday, and dropped nearly 3 bucks to close at 10.21.
It would appear to be in response to reports of big losses in crops in NSW, Vic and parts of WA, as well as the departure of its MD, and also reported a  20 percent drop in cash flow from last year.
Maybe a turnaround story,  but its not one I would be interested in unless it fell a lot further.
Mick


----------



## eskys (15 November 2022)

Thank you, Mick. Bad fall yesterday, very volatile this morning, looks more settled now but for how long I've no idea.


----------



## divs4ever (15 November 2022)

eskys said:


> What about ELD, divs?



 on my avoid list  because
  A.  i saw  what they did to the preference share holders   when they 'redeemed' them ( so they could mollify the ordinary shareholders )

 B. heard extra tales of woe from  my trader buddy    who had then since the dot.com bubble 

 by the way i gritted my teeth and bought some GNC today @ $7.93  and leaving another order in @ $7.60 ( only small buys )


----------



## eskys (15 November 2022)

divs4ever said:


> on my avoid list  because
> A.  i saw  what they did to the preference share holders   when they 'redeemed' them ( so they could mollify the ordinary shareholders )
> 
> B. heard extra tales of woe from  my trader buddy    who had then since the dot.com bubble
> ...



Did a trade this morning on ELD,  will watch tomorrow.......bit late now to make an attempt


----------



## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> She does not explain how pricing the emissions  reduces those emissions,




It’s makes the product that involves more emissions more expensive than the lower emitting alternatives, so the market should begin to lean towards the lower emitting alternatives.

It’s not about making anyone go out of business, but it is about shifting business towards producing lower emitting products.

For example, if the market begins to move away from beef causing the beef price to drop, some of the farmers that can use their land to produce other products will do so. Reducing the over all production of beef (or chicken or dairy of what ever)


----------



## divs4ever (15 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s makes the product that involves more emissions more expensive than the lower emitting alternatives, so the market should begin to lean towards the lower emitting alternatives.
> 
> It’s not about making anyone go out of business, but it is about shifting business towards producing lower emitting products.
> 
> For example, if the market begins to move away from beef causing the beef price to drop, some of the farmers that can use their land to produce other products will do so. Reducing the over all production of beef (or chicken or dairy of what ever)



 yes that is the whole agenda  , to get us to eat artificial and heavily processed foods ( like Beyond Meat  ) so us peasants have little control of the food chain ( control the food , money , transport , etc etc etc )

 all you had to do was see how many private jets arrived at COP 27  or Davos   to see they care stuff all about what THEY emit ( or the example they set )

 the good thing is such perennial hypocrisy  , turned me completely  against the  'Green/Climate  Agenda )

 fun research .. have a look at what share holdings John Kerry had to divest to become the Biden Admin's new climate czar ( despite banging on  about climate change for about a decade )

 these folks are just gas-bags


----------



## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

divs4ever said:


> yes that is the whole agenda  , to get us to eat artificial and heavily processed foods ( like Beyond Meat  ) so us peasants have little control of the food chain ( control the food , money , transport , etc etc etc )
> 
> all you had to do was see how many private jets arrived at COP 27  or Davos   to see they care stuff all about what THEY emit ( or the example they set )
> 
> ...



I don’t think any one is trying to force you to eat beyond meat, the idea is to eat less meat, what you replace it with is up to you. You can replace it with meat alternatives if you want, or you can replace it with more vegetables etc.

I don’t think beyond meat was designed as a health food, although it is probably healthier than the meat junk foods it was designed to replace.


----------



## divs4ever (15 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t think any one is trying to force you to eat beyond meat, the idea is to eat less meat, what you replace it with is up to you. You can replace it with meat alternatives if you want, or you can replace it with more vegetables etc.
> 
> I don’t think beyond meat was designed as a health food, although it is probably healthier than the meat junk foods it was designed to replace.



they will in the future ( price meats out of the peasants reach )
 i also note wider acceptance of human flesh  ( i hope the folks pushing that have thought carefully .. better to have a chubby oligarch  than a chemical drenched factory worker )


----------



## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

divs4ever said:


> they will in the future ( price meats out of the peasants reach )
> i also note wider acceptance of human flesh  ( i hope the folks pushing that have thought carefully .. better to have a chubby oligarch  than a chemical drenched factory worker )



Well in a world where there is potential food shortages, it is a bit rich for us in the developed world to send the huge quantities of grain to factory farms, in the name of producing meat.

It’s a fact that not many people want to acknowledge, but we dedicate huge amounts of farmland, Water, fertiliser and surprisingly fish just to feed animals on factory farms.

It’s pretty wasteful, I think if we are ever going to feed 11 billion people we will have to be eating a lot less meat, or maybe switch a large portion of meat production to Lab grown meat where we just grow the bits humans want and not the whole animal.


----------



## divs4ever (15 November 2022)

i suspect humanity is taking and unpleasant  turn ,

 food production needs reform but i think it has taken a wrong direction ( at least in the G7 )


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s a fact that not many people want to acknowledge, but we dedicate huge amounts of farmland, Water, fertiliser and surprisingly fish just to feed animals on factory farms.
> 
> It’s pretty wasteful, I think if we are ever going to feed 11 billion people we will have to be eating a lot less meat, or maybe switch a large portion of meat production to Lab grown meat where we just grow the bits humans want and not the whole animal.



Agree as such but I'll argue that to even contemplate a population of 11 billion is insanity.


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agree as such but I'll argue that to even contemplate a population of 11 billion is insanity.



I agree, but with current birth rates, and an improvement in life expectancy in the third world we are on track to hit that.

———————-

Some of the stats on farming are crazy, for example.

70% of all the birds on the planet are farmed poultry. (By mass)

60% of all mammals are livestock, 36% are humans and only 4% are wild animals. (By mass)

We could actually easily feed 11 Billion people with existing farmland, but we can’t feed Billions of animals too.


----------



## divs4ever (16 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I agree, but with current birth rates, and an improvement in life expectancy in the third world we are on track to hit that.
> 
> ———————-
> 
> ...



 so  .. you haven't spent an hour or two in your backyard  

 there are plenty of uncaged   birds ( a pair of bush turkeys ,  wild ducks , usually two , etc etc etc.   ,  , not so many mammals ( a passing fox , the neighbour's cat ,  two species of possums at night , some rodents ), but quite a selection of reptiles  in the backyard here   water dragons, blue-tongues , skinks , at least 3 species of snakes , haven't seen any turtles but there is a creek nearby could be maybe  , maybe the highway on the other-side of the creek takes out the turtles 

 i am guessing selective data  collection again   by the Green Collective


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2022)

divs4ever said:


> so  .. you haven't spent an hour or two in your backyard
> 
> there are plenty of uncaged   birds ( a pair of bush turkeys ,  wild ducks , usually two , etc etc etc.   ,  , not so many mammals ( a passing fox , the neighbour's cat ,  two species of possums at night , some rodents ), but quite a selection of reptiles  in the backyard here   water dragons, blue-tongues , skinks , at least 3 species of snakes , haven't seen any turtles but there is a creek nearby could be maybe  , maybe the highway on the other-side of the creek takes out the turtles
> 
> i am guessing selective data  collection again   by the Green Collective




No, it’s not selective data, it’s true and available from many sources. You can also see it in the stats of where our grain and soybean production go, for example humans only consume 6% of soybean directly the majority go to factory farms.

Think about it, sometimes in the wild you can see a huge flock of birds and it’s a bit of a spectacle, but that flock of birds is less than one shed of chickens on a factory farm and the farm probably has 12 sheds, and down the road is another 12 sheds etc.

As I said it’s hard for some people to believe because it’s mostly kept out of site of us, but dif a little deeper and you will find a lot of info.










						70% of all birds on earth are farmed poultry • Food Security Center
					

Melancholic is definitely how you will feel after reading the study «The biomass distributions on Earth» by Yinon M. Bar-On, Rob




					www.foodsecuritycenter.org


----------



## divs4ever (16 November 2022)

the local birds are regulars  the crows are fourth or fifth generation , ( because the nest is in the front yard) , and the kookaburras are at least third generation the next i across the street  , i suspect the ducks nest close by as well but not so close that the ducklings  wander in the yard 

 modern agriculture looks impressive because they concentrate it  , but nature has it's mass as well , it just moves to where the food is  ( and trees help generate those food sources )

 now sure i would prefer more local fauna than feral ( cats/foxes/toads, rabbits , etc etc ) but given a chance nature does balance things out 

 for example  at a different property the crows  learned  to flip and eat cane toads ( thighs ) leaving room for some green frogs to exist


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## Gringotts Bank (16 November 2022)

So which Aussie food stocks?  Other than ELD.


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## divs4ever (16 November 2022)

i added some extra GNC to the ones i bought yesterday 

 but most will  be looking for quicker returns than i expect from GNC

crunch the figures on SHV  and see if they appeal to you  ( i have had a nice run with them in the past , but no longer hold )

 i hold SGLLV but they are not liquid enough for most people 

 i was finding it tough to find attractive stocks in this sector  , so bought RHL/Ruralco  ( since taken over ) , RFF and D2O  plus some fertilizer exposure via WES

 this sector is liable to have wild swings  , which can be good but scary 

 PS  i have a bias against aquaculture ( fish and shellfish ) but maybe there will be something there that appeals 

 and don't forget grapes/wine and olives , a good entry price there can make or break a 'bottom drawer stock '


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## mullokintyre (16 November 2022)

CKF. When


Gringotts Bank said:


> So which Aussie food stocks?  Other than ELD.



DMP and CKF.  people will still go for pizzas and KFC even  if world war 3 broke out.
And maybe the Beta shares FOOD etf
RFG is to be avoided at all costs as does CGF.
Mick


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## divs4ever (16 November 2022)

a trader buddy  likes AAC , about $1.10 ( but doesn't hold )  , i could never get the numbers to crunch attractively  on that one


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## basilio (18 November 2022)

A new idea to address growing food. 

PRESS RELEASE       21st April 2022​ 
Consortium Plan To Build & Operate Scotland's First Low Carbon, Energy Efficient, Soil-Free Vertical Farms In The Central Belt​ 



A consortium of four British companies have earmarked a series of sites between Dumbarton and Dundee for the locations of Scotland’s next generation of hectare+ scale vertical farms, powered by 100% Scottish renewables. These farms would provide locally produced fresh foods (salads and fruits) to over 60% of the Scottish population.

The vertical farms will help meet the Scottish Government’s ambitions to produce more homegrown fruit and vegetables. Each vertical farm would be powered by locally produced renewable energy. 

Next generation vertical farms use advanced soil-free growing techniques and stack crops in specially designed beds and trays. They minimise water, fertiliser and pesticide use which is highly beneficial to the environment and make use of artificial lighting and climate control to get the desired results.

The V-FAST consortium comprises UK Urban AgriTech (UKUAT), Vertegrow Ltd, Light Science Technologies Ltd and RheEnergise Limited, the UK energy storage company.









						RheEnergise News
					

Our latest achievements




					www.rheenergise.com


----------



## eskys (28 November 2022)

GNC ex dividend tomorrow.....30 cents, full franking, and Elders going on a trot this morning....had me tricked


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## eskys (15 December 2022)

Elders gone for a run again  .....I timed it poorly today.........up another 10 cents  since my exit............consumer staples were red last night, but our consumer staples sector is green...........this is a difficult market to gauge.

Collins Food and Elders were at their all time low this year a few weeks ago


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## divs4ever (15 December 2022)

i would rather hold this sector  for the long haul  but take-overs in Coca-Cola and Ruralco  ruined those plans ( but crystallized  a profit )

 currently GNC , SGLLV and SHV  are my main hopes  but CLV has been the big winner for me  ( i was buying during the powered milk scandals )

weather and FX fluctuations make this a tough game


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## eskys (15 December 2022)

I noticed in the past, punters turn defensive when volatility goes up but VIX is down, divs.

Went to Coles last week, red capsicum were 14.99.......so I bought one. Weather so cold, my capsicums are refusing to grow........food will probably stay this way for a while


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## divs4ever (15 December 2022)

i tilt ( new buying ) into  consumer staples ( and 'safe-havens ') when the economy makes little sense ( to me )  

it is a QLD summer here  , the rain is a bit light on  , but cool weather isn't a problem here currently


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## qldfrog (16 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i tilt ( new buying ) into  consumer staples ( and 'safe-havens ') when the economy makes little sense ( to me )
> 
> it is a QLD summer here  , the rain is a bit light on  , but cool weather isn't a problem here currently



It is cold,colder than usual here in the sunny coast but garden and weeds booming,and grass as well.
My herd very happy and live cattle price crazy at the salesyard..a sign of general good season for our local farmers


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## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> It is cold,colder than usual here in the sunny coast but garden and weeds booming,and grass as well.
> My herd very happy and live cattle price crazy at the salesyard..a sign of general good season for our local farmers



nice to see some folks are looking forward to a relatively happy Christmas 

maybe you need a few goats to tame the weeds ( maybe milkers  so you get some milk along with the weed suppression )


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> nice to see some folks are looking forward to a relatively happy Christmas
> 
> maybe you need a few goats to tame the weeds ( maybe milkers  so you get some milk along with the weed suppression )



Weeds 8n the garden, in the paddocks, it is food for my methane emitting, world destroying cattle.so unPC


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## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

PC translates to Pure C#@p to me 

 so i don't  feel bad about unPC

 last i heard weeds are plants that are unuseful  , i would class cattle fodder as having some use 

 although Victoria seems to disagree with that  and funded the removal  of plants that cattle would eat in harsh times ( and not die from eating them )


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## eskys (16 December 2022)

divs, SHV at it's 12 month low today...had a sensitive announcement yesterday. I missed it, and Elders ran away from me today..........missed it by hair's breadth


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

was after sub $4 for the extra SHV 

 maybe i should enter  an order in the market just in case 

 cheers


----------



## eskys (16 December 2022)

Wow, you make a decision fast. What and how do you base your decision on, divs?


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

eskys said:


> Wow, you make a decision fast. What and how do you base your decision on, divs?



well i had already made a decision to add more  ( just not the precise price  , and i MIGHT  yet move lower on Monday . )

 SHV  is a long term stock but has since i first bought in  during May 2011  has displayed extraordinary volatility ( for a profit making agriculture stock ) 

 now since i am determined to try to buy  pennies are less important  than trying to get a fairly good discount ( not the exact bottom , but if i can get close to the cycle bottom , that's fine by me 

 so a quick glance at the market  depth  ( SHV is more likely to over-shoot the support at $4 , than some stocks )

 sooo do i feel lucky ?? ( hint it was my nickname  in my younger years )

 and having  some stocks rattling around on my 'wish-list ' and waiting   is a useful tool in the tool-box 

 for instance  i waited 3 years for sub 80 cent BPT ,  and when it dropped   i nibbled and nibbled and nibbled ( my av, SP is 52.5 cents )

 now of course  sometimes i am disappointed  ( or very lucky that i missed out , completely )

 warning ... SHV can get whipped around by FX rates , California rain , Californian forest fires  , and Australian rainfall  so  keep the 'risk factor cranked up 

 ergo  my preferred SHV exposure is RFF  ( leases some plantations to SHV )  , but the SHV price now has room to rise in the coming years  ( unlike the $12.80 i reduced at in July 2015 )


----------



## eskys (16 December 2022)

Thank you, lucky divs.

Too late now for me to make an entry and don't want to hold over the weekend. Different from you as an investor.  I agree with you on RFF. Also it pays better dividends.


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

am thinking SHV will take about three to five years to get back   to healthy profits unless it pivots towards the Asian markets , but i have been wrong before


----------



## eskys (16 December 2022)

I hope it doesn't take that long, divs. Three to five years is a long time. You're a monk??


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

eskys said:


> I hope it doesn't take that long, divs. Three to five years is a long time. You're a monk??



it depends on my life expectancy   , , if it is a reasonably short time  , i have enough already  ( if actual inflation stays below 20% )

the cardiologist  told me to 'take these pills or you are dead by Xmas ( 2016 )  and THEN things got really complicated 

 if i live longer or inflation really rockets    i might need some capital growth ( after inflation ) plus the div. income 

 i am already retired   , so have to try and wrangle  a comfortable position  , for the most likely outcomes  

 looks like some interesting times coming  ( for Australia as well )


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## rcw1 (16 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> it depends on my life expectancy   , , if it is a reasonably short time  , i have enough already  ( if actual inflation stays below 20% )
> 
> the cardiologist  told me to 'take these pills or you are dead by Xmas ( 2016 )  and THEN things got really complicated
> 
> ...



Good afternoon divs4ever, 
Get back onto that bicycle mate.

Kind regards
rcw1


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good afternoon divs4ever,
> Get back onto that bicycle mate.
> 
> Kind regards
> rcw1



 LOL 

 someone decided to give me a stress MRI   about a  year and a half  back   ( normally a normal MRI , followed by an eight minute walk on a treadmill   followed by  a second  MRI )

 now given i walked in the door under my on steam  , thinks  started to go astray   , right at the first MRI , were i failed it  .. a completely indecipherable set of images  ( i have had at least 4 in previous years which are unusual but gave good images )

 now i was surprised the major hospital staff confused  , so they had to find  a different machine   for a second try  , ( which seems to have given an acceptable result  )  and then off to the stress bit   which the lady in charge wires me up to the EKG  leads ... takes one look at the readings  and directs to sit on the bed  and waggle my legs !!  after about 20 seconds of that she pumps me full of adenosine  , and records the EKG readout  vehemently opposing any attempt to get me on the treadmill  AND ordered a wheelchair and orderly for the rest of the day  , i still have no idea who was the most stressed in that little saga  ,

 and finally off the the other MRI .. which must have been fairly tame ( for me ) ( no pre-confirmed appointments with the cardiologist  the next  day , or hospital booking  texted over the phone )










						Adenosine Uses, Side Effects & Warnings - Drugs.com
					

Physician reviewed adenosine patient information - includes adenosine description, dosage and directions.




					www.drugs.com
				





 PS they won't even let me drive my own wheelchair  out in public ( but that might be because i joke about playing wheelchair rugby )


----------



## eskys (17 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> it depends on my life expectancy   , , if it is a reasonably short time  , i have enough already  ( if actual inflation stays below 20% )
> 
> the cardiologist  told me to 'take these pills or you are dead by Xmas ( 2016 )  and THEN things got really complicated
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear of your health problems, divs. At our age, things can go wrong, leaky pumpling, the old ticker and what nots. We can only try the best we can to look after ourselves through proper diet, exercise etc.......Keep well, divs, all the best.

My question is a statement; meant to mean you have the patience of a monk, divs. You're certainly a very patient man. Wish I am that patient......have a great weekend.


----------



## divs4ever (17 December 2022)

eskys said:


> Sorry to hear of your health problems, divs. At our age, things can go wrong, leaky pumpling, the old ticker and what nots. We can only try the best we can to look after ourselves through proper diet, exercise etc.......Keep well, divs, all the best.
> 
> My question is a statement; meant to mean you have the patience of a monk, divs. You're certainly a very patient man. Wish I am that patient......have a great weekend.



i lived the first ( almost ) 60 years   like there was no tomorrow 

 now the 'old ticker'  is a bit of a mystery  in among the medical documents   is a hint/theory that the core damage might have been there for years/decades/all my life  , it wasn't until somebody   hooked me up to my first EKG in 2016   a heart issue was noticed  ( sure i always had lung issues ) the first echo-cardiogram  had the technician deeply disturbed  and by the beginning of 2017  i had a full disability pension ( six days after the independent medical  review ) ( even before they managed to put in the stent )

 but many many  years ago  , i did learn  one useful   hint on heart problems  .... whatever you do , DON'T panic ( and consider getting a cab to the hospital  , if you need help quickly  .. but that is a former neighbour's tale )

but there is a time to be patient  and a time to be very quick , getting that timing right is a big help  , that is why i  buy INTO a slide  if it dips lower i have time to buy more   if it is a dead cat bounce  i get a second buying opportunity ( if i want it )

 have a top weekend yourself


----------



## eskys (17 December 2022)

Too early in the morning, my plumbing was a pumpling, haha.

Divs, won't it better to apply for ambulance membership and ring for 000 in case of assistance with heart or breathing issues? I wouldn't be relying on a taxi. What happens if there was an emergency on the way to hospital? How well trained are they in resuscitation, if at all?

Good that you lived a fulfilling life in your younger days, divs. Imagine leaving it till you retired to live it now............just shows, time waits for no one. I've been accused of being short sighted. My reply is 'I don't have all the time in the world". I buy what I want and not wait till sales. Told 2 friends a few weeks ago 'who are you saving your money for? You wait for avo to go on sale before you can eat?' Makes no sense to me.........we work hard for what we have, don't feel guilty for being good to yourself, I said. Silence..........

I'm planning on heading back for a 'smoke' today, divs......again, a very nice weekend, take care, xx


----------



## JohnDe (19 December 2022)

Hong Kong ship has been filling up for over a week, took this photo on Sunday -


----------



## divs4ever (19 December 2022)

eskys said:


> Too early in the morning, my plumbing was a pumpling, haha.
> 
> Divs, won't it better to apply for ambulance membership and ring for 000 in case of assistance with heart or breathing issues? I wouldn't be relying on a taxi. What happens if there was an emergency on the way to hospital? How well trained are they in resuscitation, if at all?
> 
> ...



am in QLD ( and on a disability pension ) and in a semi-civilized  area ( plenty of multi-lane roads for the ambulance to speed along ) and the local hospital ( reasonably well equipped ) has a heli-pad and access to six superior hospitals  , in case things are really messy )
 HOWEVER the taxi is likely to arrive first   and if i NEED an ambulance   the poor paramedics  are looking at a pharmaceutical  mine-field  , i would rather be at the hospital reception  , than sitting in the parking lot at the back while the paramedics  are doing CPR and stuff , obviously if you are losing lots  of fluids [ blood, stomach contents and stuff ]  the taxi option isn't so good ( unless he ran you over in the first place )

 for instance the nitrolingual  to be used only in an emergency triggers a cascade  of consequences  from the existing medications ( some of which are long-lasting ) so from an incident that requires a QUICK trip to the hospital  turns into an extended hospital stay  even if the first incident was only a bad scare  .

 however such a drama is liable to be the highlight of my week currently 

 have fun ( but be careful it is addictive )


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> am in QLD ( and on a disability pension ) and in a semi-civilized  area ( plenty of multi-lane roads for the ambulance to speed along ) and the local hospital ( reasonably well equipped ) has a heli-pad and access to six superior hospitals  , in case things are really messy )
> HOWEVER the taxi is likely to arrive first   and if i NEED an ambulance   the poor paramedics  are looking at a pharmaceutical  mine-field  , i would rather be at the hospital reception  , than sitting in the parking lot at the back while the paramedics  are doing CPR and stuff , obviously if you are losing lots  of fluids [ blood, stomach contents and stuff ]  the taxi option isn't so good ( unless he ran you over in the first place )
> 
> for instance the nitrolingual  to be used only in an emergency triggers a cascade  of consequences  from the existing medications ( some of which are long-lasting ) so from an incident that requires a QUICK trip to the hospital  turns into an extended hospital stay  even if the first incident was only a bad scare  .
> ...



Jeezuz!

Mate, I hope you live a long and happy life just to confuse them all.

True story: many many years ago as a young man I knew a guy in my horse riding sport in his early 50s.

Not one male in his family had lived past 54 due to heart issues. Indeed, he used to have minor heart attacks all the time at horse shows.

2 hours later he'd be  up on his horses and over the sticks again.

He was living life to the full, but none of us expected him to be around for very much longer.

Though I moved away from the state racehorse trainer and was therefore easily trackable via risa.com.au

Last entry was 3 or 4 years ago which would have made him in his late 80s.

Not quite sure what I'm trying to say here but maybe it is a lesson in that... dunno.


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## divs4ever (19 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Jeezuz!
> 
> Mate, I hope you live a long and happy life just to confuse them all.
> 
> ...



have already  done that   , they declared me dead   when mum was 8 and half months pregnant ( and induced me )  .. two weeks later i arrived  and then the chaos began ( both for me and mum )

 now mum finally died in her '80s  from similar problems  to mine  , but doctors still only guess when the damage was actually done  , but it is always amusing  when i get a new technician  doing an echo-cardiogram , such an interesting array of reactions and comments 

 always helpful to have a good ( even if it is twisted ) sense of humor though


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## rcw1 (19 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> am in QLD ( and on a disability pension ) and in a semi-civilized  area ( plenty of multi-lane roads for the ambulance to speed along ) and the local hospital ( reasonably well equipped ) has a heli-pad and access to six superior hospitals  , in case things are really messy )
> HOWEVER the taxi is likely to arrive first   and if i NEED an ambulance   the poor paramedics  are looking at a pharmaceutical  mine-field  , i would rather be at the hospital reception  , than sitting in the parking lot at the back while the paramedics  are doing CPR and stuff , obviously if you are losing lots  of fluids [ blood, stomach contents and stuff ]  the taxi option isn't so good ( unless he ran you over in the first place )
> 
> for instance the nitrolingual  to be used only in an emergency triggers a cascade  of consequences  from the existing medications ( some of which are long-lasting ) so from an incident that requires a QUICK trip to the hospital  turns into an extended hospital stay  even if the first incident was only a bad scare  .
> ...



Get some rum into ya mate

Kind regards
rcw1


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## divs4ever (19 December 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Get some rum into ya mate
> 
> Kind regards
> rcw1



the Bicor ( i am on ) affects me like two bottles of whiskey  a day , there is  a debate that the Entresto ( which i am also on ) increases that effect  ,  so the best i can safely do is inhale cognac ( at least it won't take out my liver )
 but on the flip-slide  the PBS discounts  have probably saved me quite a bit  on alcohol costs ( on what i might have consumed over the last 6 years )

 cheers 🍻


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## JohnDe (21 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Hong Kong ship has been filling up for over a week, took this photo on Sunday -
> 
> View attachment 150654
> 
> ...




Where do you think the Hong Kong grain ship load was heading?



> *Chinese customs move may signal trade thaw for Australian lobster, pearls, Ugg boots and more*
> 
> In a further sign of improving ties between Australia and China, Beijing’s powerful Customs Department has officially encouraged the buying of Australian lobsters, health products, Ugg boots and pearls.
> 
> ...


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## divs4ever (21 December 2022)

hmmm  that might explain the rise in BKL  ( i hold ) share price  recently 

 which is a shame i was hoping to buy more sub $60 

doesn't seemed to have excited the milk/baby formula industry   CLV  ( i hold 'free-carried' ) has been fairly flat and unloved


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## JohnDe (21 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> hmmm  that might explain the rise in BKL  ( i hold ) share price  recently
> 
> which is a shame i was hoping to buy more sub $60
> 
> doesn't seemed to have excited the milk/baby formula industry   CLV  ( i hold 'free-carried' ) has been fairly flat and unloved




I put that down to Christmas. People are preparing for the party and after party, going to the gym, eating relatively healthy, and taking vitamins. All so that they can overindulge and feel good about it during the holidays 💪


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## divs4ever (21 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I put that down to Christmas. People are preparing for the party and after party, going to the gym, eating relatively healthy, and taking vitamins. All so that they can overindulge and feel good about it during the holidays 💪



am not so sure on the partying 

 i know i am in a very tiny microcosm , but family/inter-family tensions  seem to be higher than previous years , maybe healthcare providers might be the better angle


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## JohnDe (21 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> am not so sure on the partying
> 
> i know i am in a very tiny microcosm , but family/inter-family tensions  seem to be higher than previous years , maybe healthcare providers might be the better angle




I was just joking, your comment about BKL reminded me of a conversation a few days ago. 

My wife and I have been going to the same gym for 7 years, our daughter joined u about 6 months ago and she mentioned how busy it has become lately. We told her the story about how every year before any warm holiday, there is an influx from the casual users brigade as they try to trim up and look good. And after the holiday period there is another influx as they try to lose the Christmas pudding. 

Maybe there is the same principle with vitamins 🥤


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## divs4ever (21 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I was just joking, your comment about BKL reminded me of a conversation a few days ago.
> 
> My wife and I have been going to the same gym for 7 years, our daughter joined u about 6 months ago and she mentioned how busy it has become lately. We told her the story about how every year before any warm holiday, there is an influx from the casual users brigade as they try to trim up and look good. And after the holiday period there is another influx as they try to lose the Christmas pudding.
> 
> Maybe there is the same principle with vitamins 🥤



yes i heard the same comment ( well , very similar ) at the gym  where i go for  physio sessions 

 was trying to get an acceptable  entry into VLS  on the same theory 

 was still looking for that BKL top up price though


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## JohnDe (5 January 2023)

JohnDe said:


> Hong Kong ship has been filling up for over a week, took this photo on Sunday -
> 
> View attachment 150654
> 
> ...




Another ship in, the bulk carrier Federal  Ibuki. Under the Panama flag


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