# HomeTrader



## Profitseeker

Hi,

Is anyone a member of hometrader? Went to a course tonight and it was interesting. Pricey though. General gist is the seem to help you develop a trading system. Does any one know any good books or cheaper courses that help you do this?


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## It's Snake Pliskin

*Re: Home Trader*



			
				Profitseeker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Is anyone a member of hometrader? Went to a course tonight and it was interesting. Pricey though. General gist is the seem to help you develop a trading system. Does any one know any good books or cheaper courses that help you do this?




Courses seem to be too expensive and guarantee nothing. 

Many good traders only read books on the subject and do very well. Read Van Tharps Trade your way to Financial Freedom. Louise Bedford's Trading Secrets is good too. Investment Fables is a good book on the fundamentals that I use to complement my technical indicators. Don't kid yourself into believing trading requires all the technical stuff in the world. Simple is good and manageable.

Good luck.
Snake


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## ob1kenobi

*Re: Home Trader*



			
				Profitseeker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Is anyone a member of hometrader? Went to a course tonight and it was interesting. Pricey though. General gist is the seem to help you develop a trading system. Does any one know any good books or cheaper courses that help you do this?




Be wary of such courses. Develop your own trading plan first. Ask: why am I trading / investing? What are my financial goals? What are my limits (gains and losses)? How will I arrange taxation affairs? What research will I do to make an informed decision before trading (ie. Technical Analysis, Fundamental Analysis, a combination or some other approach)? This will help you develop an approach to trading and a system. Systems constantly need maintaining and refining if they're going to be effective. Search the posts on this web site, a lot of experienced people have posted material on systems of trading. Ultimately, it's your money, not theirs! Good luck!


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

I actually went and met the principals of Hometrader here in Adelaide after a friend was hell bent on investing around $6000.

I had coffee with one of them--(Forget his name),and as you could probably imagine had a good old dig around--he was very forthcoming with wads of paper work "verifying" results.

After 2 hrs this is what I found.

(1) They teach you the BASICS of mechanical systems development.
(2) They have the right idea on risk and implementation.
(3) They are not the worst I have seen by far.

*SO WHATS THE CATCH?*

Their systems are based on use with CFD's.
Thats 10 x leverage.
So a system with a 4% return is seen as a 40% return.
What they dont make clear is that any drawdown is also 10 x leveraged.
So the average very good system will have a 12% maximum drawdown.
Simple maths tells you that your broke.
Infact your system is un workable due to capital restraints at around 60% drawdown.

Proof of trading results is based on a monthly competiotion much like here where contestants plavce their trades in a database for a prize--which was only a few hundred $$s in prize value.
As we know there can be spectacular returns on a single months trading particularly when you multiply the result by 10.
There are no 12 mth figures available and I didnt see ANYONES name 2 or 3 times over many months appearing.They could have gone belly up next month!!

I saw some traders trading over $500,000 which i questioned as traders with this amount of capital dont need to "Know" how to trade--they wont be placing 500K in the market without knowledge.

The response was that this was leveraged funds IE 50K X 10.

Conclusion.
Genuine people who are serious about "Wishing" to make succesful traders as the more they make the better their business.
Trainers are only average.Anyone can formulate a 2-4% system return.
15-40% is pretty difficult.The systems developement was what I saw around oscillators---not the best way of devising a profitable system.
Without the leverage then there is not a lot.

A good basic start in systems developement but I personally cant justify the cost--which is on going if you wish to improve.

If you search Reefcap under HomeTrader you'll read the post as it happened ayear or so ago--could have been 18 mths.


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## Milk Man

*Re: Home Trader*



			
				ob1kenobi said:
			
		

> Be wary of such courses. Develop your own trading plan first. Ask: why am I trading / investing? What are my financial goals? What are my limits (gains and losses)? How will I arrange taxation affairs? What research will I do to make an informed decision before trading (ie. Technical Analysis, Fundamental Analysis, a combination or some other approach)? This will help you develop an approach to trading and a system. Systems constantly need maintaining and refining if they're going to be effective. Search the posts on this web site, a lot of experienced people have posted material on systems of trading. Ultimately, it's your money, not theirs! Good luck!




And: *WRITE IT DOWN!*


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

Found it.

*The guy I met and who takes part in the discussion here is JON MAXTED from Hometrader.*

Its a fair length but those who are seriously looking at this or ANY educational purchase I think will get a lot out of it from a number of very experienced Traders.
Like Thomas N40K who was Risk Manager for AB Amro in Tokyo.

Anyway hope this is of value.

http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000372#000000

*Not all educators are SHARKS dont think you can generalise---but knowing WHAT to ask is handy.*


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

ASIC seems to have had a good look at Hometrader
and enforced some changes.

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/lkuppdf/ASIC+PDFW?opendocument&key=017029135_pdf


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## wayneL

*Re: Home Trader*

Good comments Tech, particularly re cfd leverage etc.

A bit of a smoke and mirrors show eh?

As I trade at night I am seeing they are doing heaps of TV advertising after 12AM. The sales style is almost a direct copy of what MLM companies use. (belch)

I thought someone was advertising for network marketing distributers until "Hometrader" was mentioned LOL.

Cheers


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

When I asked Jon Maxtead (The SA CEO) how his portfolio was going he said he didnt trade.
When I asked why he said he would rather concentrate on the business itself.
Strange I thought.

I think showing people how to develop their own system is OK.
Selling them one complete with instructions seems to be the point of conjecture.

Even so I really do believe that understanding,developing and trading a mechanical method is a necessary step in learning how to trade profitably--consistantly.

*Anyone can have a winning trade or 5---few can trade profitably year in year out with enough surplus to claim to be profitable.*


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## jobar

Hi all

I am interested in hearing from anyone that has heard of Hometrader education.

They are Perth based company specialising in trading education using software such as The Boarse, Tradsim and Metastock.

They ask for $6500 for a comprehensive training program where they teach you to trade both long and short side as well as CFD's

I am looking for some impartial recomendations/comments

Regards
jobar


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## wayneL

jobar said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> I am interested in hearing from anyone that has heard of Hometrader education.
> 
> They are Perth based company specialising in trading education using software such as The Boarse, Tradsim and Metastock.
> 
> They ask for $6500 for a comprehensive training program where they teach you to trade both long and short side as well as CFD's
> 
> I am looking for some impartial recomendations/comments
> 
> Regards
> jobar




A few good books + reading Aussie Stock Forums is much cheaper and may be superior.

Cheers


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## kerosam

*re:- Home Trader*

A few friends and I attended a Hometrader's seminar last night. Two of my friends who were quite keen were thinking of signing up.... not cheap, over $6000!!!! 

The fees include classes and one on one mentoring for a year and about $600 per year if the member wants to stay on. Personally, i don't know much in detail but the system appears to be an easy way of trading! As it is only a free and introductional session, demonstration using the software was quite limited.

Anyone in the forum using "Hometrader"? Are they that really effective in winning trades?


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

kero.

Ive written quite a bit on Hometrader here and on Reefcap.
I found them to be pretty straight. Ive seen much worse.

They teach you how to develop your own system using M/S and Tradesim---may have Amibroker as well by now.
Based on CFD's a 2% a year profitable system returns 20% so be a ware of this.
Drawdowns are magnified as well.

Dont know about the $6k wether thats value or not.
Seems to be a lot of clients and not a great deal of negative feedback.
You can usually tell by negative feedback over years whats worth it or not.
Must say hometrader havent been headlines that I know of.

I'd rather pay Radge $6000 (Not that you need invest that much!) at least-----
I *know* he is licienced.
I know hes traded for 20yrs.
I know he can and has designed many profitable Systems in all timeframes.
I know he is transparent.
I know what he teaches is what you *NEED* to know to be profitable.
He knows how to *APPLY* analysis
I've used/using him.
He has both directly and indirectly made me a lot of $$s over the years.
And personally I like the way *he thinks*--no nonsense--this works or that dosent!


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## bruceaw

*Re: Home Trader*

dear tech,
absolute beginner here. was looking at hometrader and was most impressed but have also gagged on the price. have gathered the funds to meet an end of year deal reducing from 8k to 6.5k but at the 11th hour (actually 14th hour..!) am feeling a little nervous.
your last about radge intrigued me. is this nick radge of "the chartist"?

if so, how does it work? certainly the chartist doesn't seem like training to me. certainly HT was attractive to a beginner. many a testimonial from absolute novices posted. including a personal ref from a friend of friend...

i guess my question is: does your recommendation of radge apply to a beginner such as myself? is there training that he also offers?


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*

Bruce.

I think ANY training when your a raw novice can be expensive.

WHY
Because you dont know wether the training your getting is going to be of value.
You need to work through some objectives.
Hometrader is about learning to use software to develope a trading Methodology/System.
This in itself is a good idea and certainly training in this area will be benificial.
But are you ready---infact is anyone ready as a raw novice---to be able to equate if what your learning is sound knowledge.

With any training I think it important to have at least a grounding.
You need to know the basics of technical analysis to get the best from Radge (Of the Chartist) or Hometrader.

To give you hopefully a clearer idea.
I use Radge myself.Ive been in Tech analysis for 12 yrs.
I understand what he's doing and I dont need to be taught analysis I need the *Way he thinks*.
I need his *APPLICATION* of analysis.
I need his Industry knowledge.

As you can see I have defined what I need from a trainer.
I also know that as I advance Nick will have been where I'm heading and be able to mentor in whatever field/area I need guidence and increased knowledge.

*I have confidence and TRUST*---I think you'll agree important in this faceless industry!---not to mention RESULTS!!

If I were you Id be inclined to gain a grounding and find what you NEED to know to help you in your trading THEN go and find a trainer/Mentor to hone that skill/s.

Why not give Nick a Call.
He is very easy to talk to and will help you get going.
Even private mail him.


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## bruceaw

*Re: Home Trader*

wow
thanks tech for your lightening response! AND for your frankness and eruditeness (if that's a word..)

gave them a call and spoke to trish. they sound great. will do more reading tonight. 

but again thanks. your response help me sort out my thoughts on this.

education here i come!

cheers
bruce


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## inenigma

*Re: Home Trader*

Hi,

I haven't attended any of the HomeTrader seminars, but, I have access to the course material (which I would gather would contain the bulk of the course IP).  But, after reading what Tech/a had to say, I think I will get more into Nick Radge.

I have also found Peter Schiff's articles very enlightening....

http://www.safehaven.com/archive-162.htm


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## kam75

*Re: Home Trader*



Profitseeker said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is anyone a member of hometrader? Went to a course tonight and it was interesting. Pricey though. General gist is the seem to help you develop a trading system. Does any one know any good books or cheaper courses that help you do this?




To develop a trading system?  Yeah there's a few books that can teach you this.  Having a suitable trading system to engage the market is the foundation of successful trading.  The most important thing I always say to people is to develop THEIR OWN set of rules to trade by, and not somebody's elses.  Have a read of Stan Weinstein's "The Secrets for Profiting in Bull and Bear Markets."


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## Glen48

*Re: Home Trader*

I am trying GFT only cost is 3.5K to get started and they supply you with a Web site to do your trading. Able to ring any time for advise. You can do offline. I reckon for 6K you could have a good few runs and still be ahead.


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## theasxgorilla

*Re: - Home Trader*



kerosam said:


> Anyone in the forum using "Hometrader"? Are they that really effective in winning trades?




That would be my first question.  Until I get an answer that convinces me that they're able to make money (or at least not LOSE money) in this market then I would not part with $6000 of my hard-earned.  And remember, $6000 is worth more than what it used it be...LCDs, and cars have gone down in price!

Anyone know the answer to this??


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*



> Anyone know the answer to this??




A combination.
Drop in commodities.
Drop in currencies (not just AUSD)
Drop in demand.
Increase in supply.


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## julius

*Re: Home Trader*

I'd strongly recommend reading the posts of Howard Bandy, who is a member of this forum. He is an expert on trading system development and has published a book on the subject. He posts under the username 'howardbandy'.


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## aarbee

*Re: - Home Trader*



theasxgorilla said:


> That would be my first question.  Until I get an answer that convinces me that they're able to make money (or at least not LOSE money) in this market then I would not part with $6000 of my hard-earned.  And remember, $6000 is worth more than what it used it be...LCDs, and cars have gone down in price!
> 
> Anyone know the answer to this??




I have been a member of HomeTrader since 2005 and haven't for a moment regretted paying for the course. It's not a matter of whether "able to make money (or at least not LOSE money) in this market" but whether the education provided to you would give you a reasonable probability of making a success.  The greatest emphasis in HT is on developing your own systems based on simple but effective technical basis and then mechanically trading them. 

Their R&D provides good analysis of extant systems and those developed by them, in order that members can then develop their own and trade them. The backtesting regime used in HT is probably the best there is, which includes elimination of survivorship bias in the backtesting database prepared by HT.  As for making money, the best system developed will lose me money if my head is not in the right place. HT provides absolutely excellent tools to develop systems and the rest is upto the individual trader. 

As for $6,000 buying more LCDs, cars etc., education is an appreciating asset so I wouldn't quibble on the cost of same. 

Cheers,
Raj


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## TradeSim

*Re: - Home Trader*



aarbee said:


> Their R&D provides good analysis of extant systems and those developed by them, in order that members can then develop their own and trade them. The backtesting regime used in HT is probably the best there is, which includes elimination of survivorship bias in the backtesting database prepared by HT.  As for making money, the best system developed will lose me money if my head is not in the right place. HT provides absolutely excellent tools to develop systems and the rest is upto the individual trader.




We will be offering survivorship bias free back testing ability in the next release of TradeSim. Updates are free to registered users and as well the free trial will have this ability so there is no need to pay major $$ for that feature  Also as far as system development goes people might do well to study John's "Tech Trader" system which has been extensively analysed and documented on Nick Radge's forum


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## aarbee

*Re: Home Trader*

That would be a great improvement in backtesting. However, with due respect, as good as TradeSim is for what it does, I reckon that in capable hands, Amibroker is a vastly superior product for backtesting. Used with appropriate database and using  Signal ranking available in Amibroker, MonteCarlo testing becomes redundant and the backtesting accuracy improves vastly. This is just my opinion. 

The seamless scanning, backtesting and optimisation available in Amibroker is to me a great aid in system development. 

Cheers


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## weird

*Re: Home Trader*

Aarbee, I originally came from a Metastock background, and purchased Tradesim years ago to make up for its lack of real portfolio backtesting capabilities and also for the Monte Carlo and system analysis stats of Tradesim, especially the visual presentation. 

I only later came to Amibroker.  I use Amibroker now for all my system development, and agree that it is awesome product and it includes real portfolio backtesting ... and if you are also a wiz bang with the custom metric and portfolio backtester, and Excel you could probably easily produce additional wanted stats and also a Monte Carlo simulator, to analyze your given system if trading a portfolio or otherwise.  Mind you there have been rumors for sometime that some Monte Carlo features might be added, and this will be a welcomed feature to already an excellent and versatile tool.

However, I believe the ability to output trades from Amibroker and pipe them into Tradesim is the best of both worlds (although having this product is due to my software transition). 

I am not a big fan of single path ranking, as it does always really simulate the real trading environment, when it comes to actual orders being filled and your trading plan. Bring on as much possible variance that simulates a real trading environment  ... and see if the system still holds up !


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## shane5705

*Re: Home Trader*

My first venture into the trading world was in 2004.  After reading a number of "puff" promos about trading courses / seminars etc, which all seem to appear around this time of the year, ( New Year, time for a change etc ), I went to a Hometrader intro night.  
Hometrader were the best of the bunch that I had been to.  I signed on for the year and completed their course.  They certainly provided me with a start ,however their course at that time was very shabby in a number of areas and too expensive.  A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and once I started researching deeper for myself, I soon realised that most of their content was of a "cut'n'paste" nature from other peoples work. 
I would not have minded so much except that they charged an absolute premium and the course at that time did not even cover Support & Resistance!
The Brisbane trainers were active Traders and were very helpful with back-up support via e-mail etc.  My advice: spend $600 or whatever they cost now on Guppy Books and CDs' and spend time learning at your own pace.  Shane.


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## TradeSim

*Re: Home Trader*



aarbee said:


> That would be a great improvement in backtesting. However, with due respect, as good as TradeSim is for what it does, I reckon that in capable hands, Amibroker is a vastly superior product for backtesting. Used with appropriate database and using  Signal ranking available in Amibroker, MonteCarlo testing becomes redundant and the backtesting accuracy improves vastly. This is just my opinion.




Given that signal ranking and random trade selection are mutually exclusive do you have any evidence to suggest that one trade selection type is unconditionally superior to the other ??

Also what criteria did you use to determine ranking and how did you determine  it ?? Is this some sort of a formula that has been given to you and what evidence do you have to verify that it always results in an optimum selection of trades ??

And lastly why do you put so much faith in signal ranking as though it is a universal panacea for all trading systems ??

With Monte Carlo analysis I like to stress test my systems so I select worst case entry and exit ordering which means for a long system you enter in at the high of the day and exit at the low of the day and vice versa for a short system. Typically I will run a 20,000 run MC analysis over historical data particularly where there has been market corrections. What I'm trying to do is to use statistical analysis to show up any weaknesses in the system which is something you can't do if you force a particular trade sequence using some arbitrary signal ranking strategy


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## aarbee

*Re: Home Trader*



shane5705 said:


> I soon realised that most of their content was of a "cut'n'paste" nature from other peoples work.
> I would not have minded so much except that they charged an absolute premium and the course at that time did not even cover Support & Resistance!




Shane,
I joined in April 2005 and a year later I must admit, I had feelings similar to yours. However, in the last 1.5-2 years some very new stuff has been introduced. I haven't found all that stuff in books or on trading forums. NOt to say it is not out there. Just that I am happy paying for it to have it delivered to me in a concise form which fast tracks my progress drastically. I for one am time poor and would rather pay for good tuition and spend my available time working on trading psychology and on actual system development incorporating various concepts introduced by mentors who have done the research. I can then concentrate on concepts that interest me rather than re-invent the wheel. There is still a lot of work to be done, but in a focussed manner. I have read a lot of trading books, but without the foundation provided by HT or some equally efficient education system, I for one would not have learnt what I have. Maybe its just me, but books can't effectively substitute live face-to-face teaching.

As for support/resistance, it is still not taught in HT solely because it can't be effectively backtested for mechanical trading. I do believe that for most beginner traders, mechanical systems trading is the way to go and pattern based trading can be learnt as more experience is gained.  

Cheers


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## aarbee

*Re: Home Trader*



TradeSim said:


> Given that signal ranking and random trade selection are mutually exclusive do you have any evidence to suggest that one trade selection type is unconditionally superior to the other ??




No I can't offer you any evidence of unconditional superiority. I could attempt to illustrate my experience though. My Mean reversion system frequently gives upto 30 triggers on days of high volatility. If I place all 30 orders in the market, perhaps 2-3 will actually get executed. Thus, the system performance will have a very great variance as my system rules also state that I can place a maximum of 4 orders on any given day. To get a modicum of rationality in backtesting results, I can rank the 30 triggers by turnover or volatility etc and place only the top 4 orders in the market. I can backtest this very easily with AB by introducing PositionScore function. This makes the MC redundant. However, if MC was required, it can still be done in Excel with no need of the very very pricey TradeSim Enterprise edition. Moreover, in AB I can do the backtesting, optimisation etc. The icing on the cake is of course the automated Walk Forward Backtesting available in AB. 
In more capable (programming) hands than mine, the custom metric features and capability to design the Objective function for backtesting etc are really powerful features. 



TradeSim said:


> Also what criteria did you use to determine ranking and how did you determine  it ?? Is this some sort of a formula that has been given to you and what evidence do you have to verify that it always results in an optimum selection of trades ??




Among the factors that I use for ranking are Turnover, volatility, velocity or displacement. Yes there are formulae that can incorporate these into my backtesting with Amibroker. I wish I was clever enough to do it myself so I rely on some very clever people in HT who help me with it. The survivorship bias elimination protocol developed and provided by HT in my opinion is the very best there is. It gives a lot of confidence in backtesting. The optimisation function available in AB does a very efficient job in determining which signal ranking leads to the highest score vis a vis my objective function in backtesting results. 



TradeSim said:


> And lastly why do you put so much faith in signal ranking as though it is a universal panacea for all trading systems ??




I never said it is the universal panacea. I don't think there is one. As for faith, it has developed by working on both MS/TS and AB. Your belief could very well be different from mine and I wouldn't begrudge that. 

Cheers


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## TradeSim

*Re: Home Trader*



aarbee said:


> This makes the MC redundant. However, if MC was required, it can still be done in Excel with no need of the very very pricey TradeSim Enterprise edition. Moreover, in AB I can do the backtesting, optimisation etc. The icing on the cake is of course the automated Walk Forward Backtesting available in AB.
> In more capable (programming) hands than mine, the custom metric features and capability to design the Objective function for backtesting etc are really powerful features.




I'm curious to know how you would optimise a trading system with random trade selection ?? Which performance metric would you use because as soon as you introduce variance into the system there will not be one unique outcome ??

Yes I have seen MC done in Excel if you are willing to wait a week for the results. We have some users running 100,000 simulations on a 10,000 trade database which is no slouch. Regarding the price of TradeSim Enterprise you need to be fair and tell the whole story before you can compare it to your setup otherwise it is like comparing apples and oranges. 

Firstly there is the HT entry fee which is typically 6K for starters. I have some users who have told me they have paid 10K or more in some cases. Then you have the code pack which is another $450 plus the cost of Amibroker and any of the backtests they run for you. That is a hell of a lot more than TradeSim Enterprise and Metastock together 

Also if the setup you have was such a seamless interface why would you need to pay all of this money just to access it's functionality ?? A lot of the users of TradeSim are not that computer savvy and just want to focus on the aspect of system design and testing. This is why we have designed the interface to be relatively user friendly.

Like I said if you want to learn about system design why not take a look a John's Tech Trader system design which has evolved over a number of years 

As for survivorship bias free backtesting we have designed in a seamless and transparent interface for people to use. They will have access to this in the next beta release and we welcome any feedback and suggestions to make it even better


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## aarbee

*Re: Home Trader*



TradeSim said:


> I'm curious to know how you would optimise a trading system with random trade selection ?? Which performance metric would you use because as soon as you introduce variance into the system there will not be one unique outcome ??




That is the whole point of signal ranking; there is no longer random trade selection. There is indeed a unique outcome. I usually use Avg Annual Profit/Max DD as the custom metric for optimisation. However, I am in the process of developing my own objective function for optimisation. Pls refer to Howard Bandy's "Quantitative Trading Systems". 




TradeSim said:


> Firstly there is the HT entry fee which is typically 6K for starters. I have some users who have told me they have paid 10K or more in some cases. Then you have the code pack which is another $450 plus the cost of Amibroker and any of the backtests they run for you. That is a hell of a lot more than TradeSim Enterprise and Metastock together




I do not suggest that anyone should join HT just to substitute MS/TS. That would be absurd. I can only present my opinion. $450 for the code pack is the best money I have spent in learning to use effective backtesting. It has accelerated my learning curve exponentially. I have no problem whatsoever, paying to learn how to fish for myself, metaphorically speaking. 




TradeSim said:


> Also if the setup you have was such a seamless interface why would you need to pay all of this money just to access it's functionality ?? A lot of the users of TradeSim are not that computer savvy and just want to focus on the aspect of system design and testing. This is why we have designed the interface to be relatively user friendly.




The setup is very seamless, however, it does require a fair bit of knowledge of programming. I am willing to spend time in learning, especially with the help of clever people in HT. I agree the MS/TS is a much simpler proposition and eminently useful for those willing to live within the constraints. 

I just realised (I am a bit slow here) that I am having a discussion with someone who has a very vested interest in the product being discussed, while I am just an average user willing to pay for services whether it's HT or MS or TS or AB. 

FWIW, I have used Tradesim and find it to be an excellent product and relatively easy to use within certain limitations.  AB on the other hand is totally programmable but has increased demands on the user vis a  vis programming knowledge. 

I think the discussion has meandered too wide off topic for this thread.

Cheers


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## TradeSim

*Re: Home Trader*



aarbee said:


> That is the whole point of signal ranking; there is no longer random trade selection. There is indeed a unique outcome. I usually use Avg Annual Profit/Max DD as the custom metric for optimisation. However, I am in the process of developing my own objective function for optimisation. Pls refer to Howard Bandy's "Quantitative Trading Systems".




Actually you have given me some good ideas  I am in the process of implementing them. It's good to have the best of both worlds I suppose 

The only criticism I would have is it is a bit of a leap of faith to rely on a single path back test as a good indicator of future performance. That's why I like to use as much statistical variance and stress testing as possible.


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## theasxgorilla

*Re: - Home Trader*



aarbee said:


> As for making money, the best system developed will lose me money if my head is not in the right place. HT provides absolutely excellent tools to develop systems and the rest is upto the individual trader.




Actually, part of it is up to the trader, and part of it is up the market conditions, hence my original question.  Sounds like HT offer a range of different systems for budding new traders to go forth and develop off of.  I see you've mentioned that you are working with a mean-reversion based system.  What are some of the others types of trading strategies that HT offer "templates" for?


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## aarbee

*Re: - Home Trader*



theasxgorilla said:


> What are some of the others types of trading strategies that HT offer "templates" for?




Following are some of the types of systems developed and taught in HomeTrader. The Oz markets are used though they have systems for the US market and are presently researching mods to the systems for other exchanges to incorporate the peculiarities of different markets. 

Trending Following  : Long, Short - Long, Medium, short term
Reversal systems
Mean Reversion : Long and Short
Rotational : Long and short trend systems.
Pairs Trading : These systems did not work out well and they are researching it further. 
Rotational Mean Reversion : This is in the pipeline.

Strictly mechanical trading systems are used and encouraged. 

Cheers


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## tech/a

*Re: Home Trader*



> Strictly mechanical trading systems are used and encouraged.




Nothing wrong with that.
I think the steepest learning curve I found was/is during systems developement.
You learn a great deal about what doesnt work and why.
You soon learn why a system is likely to work.
And much much more.


----------



## rahman

*Re: Home Trader*

Just been to the intro seminar...it's only $4900 now...I can't see much value in that!   heaps of free value out there if your willing to work and learn as opposed to paying these smart business people to show you the basics of CFD's


----------



## G-reg

*Re: Home Trader*



tech/a said:


> Bruce.
> 
> As you can see I have defined what I need from a trainer.
> I also know that as I advance Nick will have been where I'm heading and be able to mentor in whatever field/area I need guidence and increased knowledge.
> 
> *I have confidence and TRUST*---I think you'll agree important in this faceless industry!---not to mention RESULTS!!
> 
> If I were you Id be inclined to gain a grounding and find what you NEED to know to help you in your trading THEN go and find a trainer/Mentor to hone that skill/s.
> 
> Why not give Nick a Call.
> He is very easy to talk to and will help you get going.
> Even private mail him.





Hi Tech,

Just nwe to the whole trading game and am going to attend a Hometrader seminar tomorrow night. I noticed with interest your mention of "Radge" and giving Nick a call.

Is this someone that I can talk to get some training - and if so how can I contact them/him?


----------



## kam75

*Re: Home Trader*



rahman said:


> Just been to the intro seminar...it's only $4900 now...I can't see much value in that!   heaps of free value out there if your willing to work and learn as opposed to paying these smart business people to show you the basics of CFD's




Nah, too much to pay up front!  To hell with that.


----------



## G-reg

*Re: Home Trader*

Thanks for the prompt reply tech.

Have been to the site and will contact Nick


----------



## stekmer

*Re: Home Trader*

Went to a Home Trader full day course last weekend.
It was promoted as $798 worth for $98 - fortunately I got a last minute offer of a discounted rate of $49 for a full day session covering some financial basics plus CFDs, FX.etc.

It was said to include the following:
*Trading 2009*
• Full Day of Training (RRP $299) detailing money making strategies for shares, CFDs and FX from Australia’s most respected educators. See the detailed course outline here.
• FREE copy of Trading Software (RRP $440). All attendees will receive a copy of The Bourse which is a package used by professional traders and brokers across Australia.
• Trading Platform. This multimarket, low latency trading platform used by institutional traders globally.
• Live Trading Room Access (RRP $59.25). Watch a professional FX trader trade LIVE from your personal computer at home.
• 100% Money Back Guarantee – If at the end of the training day you are not completely satisfied with the Trading 2009 program; just tell us and we will return your course fee and you can keep the software and training materials!

I suppose it was worth the $49 but I'm glad I didn't pay more. 
About 70% was legitimate education and the other 30% a sales pitch for HT and Your Trading Room.

The 'free copy' of The Bourse software however turns out to be the 14 day free trial that is available to anyone who visits the web site and completes a basic registration page. Suggesting the free trail actually had a value of $440 I think was just a bit misleading.

No idea what the Trading Platform is and haven't been contacted about the 3 days 'free' access to Your Trading Room site as yet ......

I've also read that StoneBridge (the new owners of Home Trader) are Tricom re badged after a $1.35 million fine from the ASX.

The $6,000 training fee seemed a bit steep but the more I discover the less keen I have become.


----------



## cadmec

*Anyone done the Home trader Course?*

Hi All,
I am only new at share trading, and last night i attended the " Home Trader Seminar".
My Question to the more experienced people or in fact any one who may have done the course, it this course value for money, or is it another "black box of tricks" another scam to rip people off.

your thought would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance
Frank


----------



## TradeSim

*Re: Anyone done the Home trader Course?*



cadmec said:


> Hi All,
> I am only new at share trading, and last night i attended the " Home Trader Seminar".
> My Question to the more experienced people or in fact any one who may have done the course, it this course value for money, or is it another "black box of tricks" another scam to rip people off.
> 
> your thought would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> thanks in advance
> Frank




From my experience I have got nothing good to say about this company. You would be better to look for another course or read some of the many recommended books etc.

I have posted my feelings about them on my own website 

Regards
David


----------



## TradeSim

*Re: Home Trader*

Also read the company announcements for Capital Intelligence to see what is really going on with this company:-

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=CPT


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Home Trader*

Mate, if the Black Box was that good why would they bother sharing it with anyone?

gg


----------



## Karen S

I did the Hometrader course back in 2003 and stopped trading in about 2007 because I just wasn't making any money (although I didn't lose any money either).  I am thinking about getting back into trading again.

Does anyone on the forum use Hometrader?  If so:

1. Are you consistently making money
2. What are the provided systems like? Are the continuously profitable or are they variable?

Also, whatever happened to Capital Intelligence, the company that used to own Hometrader?  I see it now has another name.

Thanks for your comments in advance.

Cheers

Karen


----------



## tech/a

Karen.

My comments with regard to Hometrader are in this thread.
They arent the worst.
After 16 yrs of trading the Systems path in my view is one of the best paths a new trader can take.
The years (around 2) to become proficient enough to code systems (and they only need to be simple---simple works!) is well worth the effort.

You'll learn WHY a method/idea/hypothesis will work or fail.

You need to know if the idea you have as a trading plan will be profitable.

You just cannot tell this without 
(1) trading it and suffering the success or failure) or 

(2) exhaustively testing the idea and deriving a blueprint to compare you live trading---going forward to.

**Once you have this knowledge trading gets really exciting as you learn the advantages of Position sizing/Leverage/and compounding.

But thats only when you have a profitable system and some capital behind you.

The best publication on the ** topics I have found is an Australian guy Brent Penfold---'The Universal Principals of Successful Trading.'


----------



## Karen S

Thanks for your reply Tech/A

I am certainly glad that I did the course and I don't begrudge the cost of the course.  It did teach me how to design a system and I learned a lot of background information that I thought was invaluable.  Some people might be able to learn this from books.  I couldn't have.  I need to see the practical implementation to be able to learn.

I think that trading is a career and education costs.  I spent about $10,000 getting a law degree so I don't have a problem with spending money learning how to trade.  I am now a property developer and I regularly read on forums about how Real Estate courses are rip offs and how the same information is contained in books.  But sometimes a $5000 course can give just one idea that you might not have picked up in a book that can make you $100,000.  4 years ago my husband did a $3000 property course that everyone thought was a complete rip off.  Twelve months later we were able to both quit our day jobs and become full time property developers.  None of the ideas in that course were unique, but reading a book would not have had the same impact that the course did.

So I come into this forum with several years' experience in coding and trading systems.   The only problem was they were not consistently profitable!  (Kind of a big problem really!).  My husband and I are now in a position where we want to make some money to supplement our income with a view to having several streams of passive income coming in, in case we want to stop property developing.

My background with Hometrader makes it an obvious choice to go back to.  However, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the BEST choice.  So I am keen to hear about other options.

Cheers

Karen


----------



## aarbee

Karen S said:


> I did the Hometrader course back in 2003 and stopped trading in about 2007 because I just wasn't making any money (although I didn't lose any money either).  I am thinking about getting back into trading again.
> 
> Does anyone on the forum use Hometrader?  If so:
> 
> 1. Are you consistently making money
> 2. What are the provided systems like? Are the continuously profitable or are they variable?
> 
> Also, whatever happened to Capital Intelligence, the company that used to own Hometrader?  I see it now has another name.
> 
> Thanks for your comments in advance.
> 
> Karen




Hi Karen,

I second Tech's choice of trading book. Am half way through it and already know that I would be reading it atleast a couple of times. There is a lot there.
Re HT, I have sent you a PM.

Cheers


----------



## tech/a

> My husband and I are now in a position where we want to make some money to supplement our income with a view to having several streams of passive income coming in, in case we want to stop property developing.




The problem is simple and one traders have to deal with when a market fails to trend for years on end.

You need to be able to short trade as well as long.
You can trade the XJO through the SPI
Crude
Currencies
Gold
To name a few.
You can even trade the emini's to cut your teeth.

Of course you'll have to re learn what is a profitable method in Futures.
You'll also need a good data supplier for Tick data for testing or shorter timeframe data.

Your overall situation is complex.
I develop myself and trade.
Primary income is my Company.
Passive income when I leave it to staff.
Ever thought of buying a business which you could take a passive role in?

It will take some years to develop your trading business.


----------



## ROE

*Re: Anyone done the Home trader Course?*



cadmec said:


> Hi All,
> I am only new at share trading, and last night i attended the " Home Trader Seminar".
> My Question to the more experienced people or in fact any one who may have done the course, it this course value for money, or is it another "black box of tricks" another scam to rip people off.
> 
> your thought would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> thanks in advance
> Frank




My thought is if any system that can make people lot of money
why the hell do they bother selling it to anyone?
just use it and make easy money 

The best system that they came up with guarantee return is the training course and that is their top secret weapon


----------



## Lyndon

Hi All

Does anyone know what happen to "Home Trader" in Adelaide? They used to have other offices interstate as well. A Google only brings up a phone number & something about making an appointment. They used to be on Greenhill road and ran trading courses.

Thanks for your time.

Regards

Lyndon


----------



## rnr

Lyndon said:


> Hi All
> 
> Does anyone know what happen to "Home Trader" in Adelaide? They used to have other offices interstate as well. A Google only brings up a phone number & something about making an appointment. They used to be on Greenhill road and ran trading courses.
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Lyndon



Hi Lyndon,

I'm reasonably certain that they are no longer in business.

Cheers, Rob


----------



## myrtie100

Hometrader were bought out by BBY, who then went into administration.


----------



## Lyndon

rnr said:


> Hi Lyndon,
> 
> I'm reasonably certain that they are no longer in business.
> 
> Cheers, Rob



Hi Rob

Thanks for the info. Anything comparable around today?


----------



## Lyndon

myrtie100 said:


> Hometrader were bought out by BBY, who then went into administration.



Hi
OK, thanks for clearing that up. I find it kind of sad. We spent a fair bit of time there and don't believe it was smoke and mirrors. Sadly for us we put our coin in just before the GFC. The system got us out without loosing anymore than our plan allowed for. We have been very slack, as we just gave up after that. Really kicking ourselves as at the least we should have just kept paper trading. Now starting from scratch. Have our old parameters and Hometrader books but it is a LONG TIME ago, so will take us quite sometime to get our heads around it all again.
Thanks again for your reply.
Regards
Lyndon


----------



## myrtie100

Lyndon said:


> Hi
> OK, thanks for clearing that up. I find it kind of sad. We spent a fair bit of time there and don't believe it was smoke and mirrors. Sadly for us we put our coin in just before the GFC. The system got us out without loosing anymore than our plan allowed for. We have been very slack, as we just gave up after that. Really kicking ourselves as at the least we should have just kept paper trading. Now starting from scratch. Have our old parameters and Hometrader books but it is a LONG TIME ago, so will take us quite sometime to get our heads around it all again.
> Thanks again for your reply.
> Regards
> Lyndon



No worries Lyndon.
Take a look at Nick Radge, The Chartist.  He trades in the same way and may offer something helpful to get you going again.
All the best.


----------



## Lyndon

myrtie100 said:


> No worries Lyndon.
> Take a look at Nick Radge, The Chartist.  He trades in the same way and may offer something helpful to get you going again.
> All the best.



cheers


----------



## feduchin

Lyndon said:


> cheers



HI, I joined HomeTrader late in 2005. I think I paid about $5,000 for a full course. I was very impressed, and after the initial course I received free training, orientation and further trading for another 7 years. (I trained again, free, 2011-12..)
Initially I trained in "Share Trading"; only on the 'bull' side; and frankly it turned out to be GREAT. My coach throughout 2006 was Jeff Bryant, a real cantankerous sod, but very good. (He's in Brisbane area now I think; I saw him on Facebook.)
I went live on January 1st 2007, traded for the full year up to about Jan 22, 2008. Around 25th the market went truly south...
During that 12 months odd I 'used' $20,000 and made a profit of about 24%!! I thought that was pretty good, considering half the country lost its trousers, so to speak..
I faithfully and _mechanically _used the system in 2007; Jeff and I planned and tested it MANY times. 
My system 'kicked' me out in January 2008 and would not 'allow' me to reinvest for at least 8 months; the market was so bad..
Then I was a bloody fool and took my money out and did some other bloody silly thing, and lost most of it!
NOW I want to get back into it, since it was about the only profitable business that I had done for 20+ years!
I have FULL records or what I did! But I'm finding it difficult to know how to use it; it was so long ago!
I haven't read all the posts here (I used to be a member), have you seen any useful tips?


----------



## Lyndon

feduchin said:


> HI, I joined HomeTrader late in 2005. I think I paid about $5,000 for a full course. I was very impressed, and after the initial course I received free training, orientation and further trading for another 7 years. (I trained again, free, 2011-12..)
> Initially I trained in "Share Trading"; only on the 'bull' side; and frankly it turned out to be GREAT. My coach throughout 2006 was Jeff Bryant, a real cantankerous sod, but very good. (He's in Brisbane area now I think; I saw him on Facebook.)
> I went live on January 1st 2007, traded for the full year up to about Jan 22, 2008. Around 25th the market went truly south...
> During that 12 months odd I 'used' $20,000 and made a profit of about 24%!! I thought that was pretty good, considering half the country lost its trousers, so to speak..
> I faithfully and _mechanically _used the system in 2007; Jeff and I planned and tested it MANY times.
> My system 'kicked' me out in January 2008 and would not 'allow' me to reinvest for at least 8 months; the market was so bad..
> Then I was a bloody fool and took my money out and did some other bloody silly thing, and lost most of it!
> NOW I want to get back into it, since it was about the only profitable business that I had done for 20+ years!
> I have FULL records or what I did! But I'm finding it difficult to know how to use it; it was so long ago!
> I haven't read all the posts here (I used to be a member), have you seen any useful tips?



Ditto, We are in EXACTLY the same boat. We have most if not all our Hometrader paperwork. It is indeed a long time ago. We are quite busy with work commitments so it will take sometime for us to get back into this. We stopped for the same reason, market went south, at the same time my partner had a major accident. So after our system kicking us out we never went back to it. Like you, we are rather pissed off with ourselves! At the least, why didn't we just keep paper trading??????????????????????? Nothing to loose, would have maintained our skills, been even more confident off our systems etc etc.
Well, we can change many things but the past is not one of them.
We are fully committed to get back into trading! That said, it will take time. If I'm honest, it will probably be two years before we trade again. A year to get our heads around all the HT notes etc, another to back test and be confident of what we are doing. If HT started up again tomorrow, with the same platform and ethics, we would most likely sign up again. It would be SO much easier to just go to classes 2 or 3 times a week for 6 months and then be fully back up to speed.
As we relearn our skills I'm happy to pass on what I can.

Regards

Lyndon


----------



## feduchin

Lyndon said:


> Ditto, We are in EXACTLY the same boat. We have most if not all our Hometrader paperwork. It is indeed a long time ago. We are quite busy with work commitments so it will take sometime for us to get back into this. We stopped for the same reason, market went south, at the same time my partner had a major accident. So after our system kicking us out we never went back to it. Like you, we are rather pissed off with ourselves! At the least, why didn't we just keep paper trading??????????????????????? Nothing to loose, would have maintained our skills, been even more confident off our systems etc etc.
> Well, we can change many things but the past is not one of them.
> We are fully committed to get back into trading! That said, it will take time. If I'm honest, it will probably be two years before we trade again. A year to get our heads around all the HT notes etc, another to back test and be confident of what we are doing. If HT started up again tomorrow, with the same platform and ethics, we would most likely sign up again. It would be SO much easier to just go to classes 2 or 3 times a week for 6 months and then be fully back up to speed.
> As we relearn our skills I'm happy to pass on what I can.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Lyndon



Lyndon,
SO good to hear!
My biggest worry is how to get SOME company to supply readings from the ASX Top200 for (am I right?) the past 6 weeks..
THEN to remember how I applied it to the spreadsheet that I THINK was supplied by Jeff Bryant; however I know that I do have whatever-it-was I used.
I little 'precis' of how you are doing that; since it is the daily information etc that's important; would be valuable to me, although to be honest I'm probably merely trying to save myself a lot of revising... Lazy bugger.
Cheers; by the way I'm in Sydney; you're probably somewhere else in the world..
Quentin


----------



## Richard Dale

What sort of "readings" are you after?


----------



## peter2

There are some readings that even Norgate data can't provide.


----------

