# Stock courses



## juststarting (22 June 2009)

I attended a seminar on the weekend and one of the speakers was Lyn Summers and she has a stock trading course called "Stockcourse" - has anyone done this course and if so was it worth the $7000?


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## beamstas (22 June 2009)

I doubt any course is worth $7000


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## Mr J (22 June 2009)

$7000? That buys you plenty of learning power by trading yourself. I can't speak of the course, but I wouldn't consider it if I was in your situation.


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

juststarting said:


> I attended a seminar on the weekend and one of the speakers was Lyn Summers and she has a stock trading course called "Stockcourse" - has anyone done this course and if so was it worth the $7000?




Same old marketing rubbish. Offer a secret, in this case knowledge from the States LOL!!, then talk alot about supporting clients and helping them help themselves. That we are in it together, while the only thing that they are into is your pocket 

Ask to see her live trading statements to prove to you that she actually has something to sell rather than snake oil. Would like to see that on youtube rather than the rubbish she has up-chucked there now.


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## Sean K (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Ask to see her live trading statements to prove to you that she actually has something to sell rather than snake oil.



Get your $7000 snake oil here. Roll up, roll up!


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## prawn_86 (22 June 2009)

Has anyone thought about all those poor snakes used in the making of the oil?


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## Sean K (22 June 2009)

Found this on Lyn:




> *Lyn Summers - Trader & Mentor*
> 
> Lyn Summers is the third child of seven siblings, born into a family who lived in a three-bedroom housing commission home in Melbourne. Lyn left school at the age of 15 and worked as a cashier to help support her family. During this time she found herself thinking, 'There must be more to life than this...'
> 
> ...




Do you think she might have written this?

monumental success worldwide 
admired for her mentoring 
people flock 
trade the markets with excitement 
creating an incredible life


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## -Bevo- (22 June 2009)

juststarting said:


> I attended a seminar on the weekend and one of the speakers was Lyn Summers and she has a stock trading course called "Stockcourse" - has anyone done this course and if so was it worth the $7000?




I haven't done that course but I can give you and answer anyhow "No Way" that's a very expensive education if your new to trading and a expensive education even if your already trading, for a fraction of that price a beginner should start with reading some books and a software program such as Amibroker.

Theres also a number of useful resources on the internet, also on this forum if you search the beginners lounge there are a number of topics for newbies.


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

So just out of curiosity....

What should be charged for teaching someone how to trade?

I ask because the firm I work for does run a program teaching people how to trade. I'm curious what you guys think that is worth?

Cheers

Sir O


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> I ask because the firm I work for does *run a program teaching people how to trade*. I'm curious what you guys think that is worth?




This is a very dubious and in my not very humble opinion a misleading statement. To think you can give someone a couple of basic "skills" learnt over a handful of lessons and then they are able to take them to market to trade is at the heart of the stock education scam.

If they said to their potential clients that they where teaching you the basics to build on that would be acceptable and in that case the amount charged should be in line with other introductory courses put on for every other subject. That would be in the $50 to $100 an hour.

But they don't. They spew BS about riches from a couple of hours work. What does your firm say the clients are getting Sir O?


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> This is a very dubious and in my not very humble opinion a misleading statement. To think you can give someone a couple of basic "skills" learnt over a handful of lessons and then they are able to take them to market to trade is at the heart of the stock education scam.
> 
> If they said to their potential clients that they where teaching you the basics to build on that would be acceptable and in that case the amount charged should be in line with other introductory courses put on for every other subject. That would be in the $50 to $100 an hour.
> 
> But they don't. They spew BS about riches from a couple of hours work. What does your firm say the clients are getting Sir O?




TH I'm trying *not* to identify the company that I work for, I'm also deliberately not giving you a) a price we charge b) everything that we provide c) full legal disclaimers. I do NOT want to be seen as using this website for promotion. This is a very small part of our business and yes we do teach people the basics and this is well understood by our clients.  We are not in the "stock education scam" as you put it. However I can see I was perhaps a bit brief sooo...for the cost of the course (which is not cheap) you get...

A charting package

Large technical handbook about 250 pages, which explains jargon, gives worked examples uses a trading diary to track progress etc etc etc.

1 years subscription to a publication giving technical set-ups. 

Two day workshop using live trading accounts (which you can reattend if you wish for a nominal fee run quarterly).

So TH - if you were designing a course to teach people the basics, what would you include and what would you charge?

Cheers

Sir O


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

I've already answered that. The same as any other education for a hobby


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I've already answered that. The same as any other education for a hobby




And what would you include for your $50 - $100 per client per hour?

Handbooks?

Presentation notes?

Computer packages?

Memberships?

Or just the scintillating brilliance that is you in front of an audience? 

If you don't get the relevance of the question TH - this is what determines whether the business activity is one that returns a profit or one that merely wastes your time and resources. Every resource you provide has to have a cost associated with it otherwise you will find yourself out of business.

You also need to try and figure out how many people would attend TH's Training program  $100 per person per hour might be excellent money with 10,000 attendees...probably won't make as much with only 2.

There has to be a cost appropriate to the activity, otherwise it's merely charity.


Cheers

Sir O


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> And what would you include for your $50 - $100 per client per hour?
> 
> Handbooks?
> 
> ...



LOL

That is my point. If the industry wasn't full of the churn and burn merchants blowing up all the punters who are yet to find the cheaper resources more efficient and honorable education providers would have a market to do what they do best, provide the basics at a basic cost.

But instead the industry is full of scammers that cannot make it in the industry they profess to be experts at. They play to peoples fear and exploit it to cover their own cost and profits rather than being honest about what they can really offer. Not much more than the basics at best.


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> So TH - if you were designing a course to teach people the basics, what would you include and what would you charge?




If I wanted them to succeed a Huge account and lots of practise. Something trading courses NEVER provide.

If I wanted to just profit from them I would just provide hope.


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## Pager (22 June 2009)

Whats utter dogs doo doo to one person may well be beneficial to another, trading IMO is a very personal thing to do, the successful trader could show 100 people exactly what and how he trades and most would still **** it up and loose money.

The educators are able to charge like wounded bulls as there are plenty of people prepared to cough up a few $$$ to learn what they think would be an easy way to make money if only they knew how , without realising its IMO one of the hardest ways to make a living.

I think there's also a perception that unless you charge a decent wedge for your course or educational services then your not the real deal  there are a few exceptions but on the whole many seeking to learn about trading use the "you pay for what you get" mentality, thing is though its a universe away from buying a vacuum cleaner or microwave


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> If I wanted them to succeed a Huge account and lots of practise. Something trading courses NEVER provide.
> 
> If I wanted to just profit from them I would just provide hope.




ROFL - TH  I'm sorry I just have to take the piss...I can't help myself.

Newb Student: "Um hello...is this Trembling Hand's Training course?"

TH: "Why yes it is son. You got your $100 an hour?"

Newb: "Um yes right here sir.  Sir? I hear you are very successful that's why I've come to you to learn sir."

TH: "Excellent Kid, excellent, you'll find we don't do anything fancy round here, just cheap efficient teaching resources. In fact you'll find the only thing you need to become a proficient is a Huge account and lots of practice."

Newb: "Ahh... um that easy?"

TH: "No Kid it's bloody hard work practicing, But look I've got a prepared example for you, step over here."

Newb: "Um what's with the water wings sir?"

TH: "These represent your Huge account"

Newb: "Oh....really? Um Shouldn't they be huge sir?"

TH: "What? You think I'm made of floaties Kid? Now walk over here will you?"

Newb: "Um it appears to be a cliff sir..... and um sir I can't help noticing a swirling vortex of chaotic water at the bottom sir."

TH: "Yep to step off the cliff you need balls of steel kid, just like you would when you are trading. That first step takes courage kid.  The chaotic water represents the market, sometimes it all moves in one direction like a big wave, other times it's just choppy with dangerous undercurrents, sometime you are just gonna get rolled and you need to learn how to handle yourself in those kinds of conditions."

Newb: "I...seee.   and how do I learn to handle myself?"


TH: "Experience"

Newb: "Oh. Um surely a boat-"

TH: "Experience kid."

Newb: "A surfboard maybe?"

TH: "Experience!"

Newb: "Oh um...ahh...I can see a man in a wetsuit down there sir... oh but he appears to have a shark fin taped to his back?"

TH: "Yup that's Eddie Groves."

Newb: "Oh.  and um is Mr Groves there to help me out if I get in trouble?"

TH: "No he's there to take a huge bite out of your back end if you get too close to him, see just like the real market."

Newb: "and um were you planning to tell me this before or after I'd jumped in sir?"

TH: "Oh No you'd have learn soon enough, that's the benefit of experience. Just be thankful we couldn't get Bernie Madoff at short notice, that guy'll take your leg off at the knee."

Newb: "oh..goody. Um Sir?"

TH: "yes Kid?"

Newb: "What's with the pin?"

TH: "Well it's simple. I merely make a small hole in the floatie, and you have to learn how to swim before all your air runs out. Simple cost effective teaching method, used it hundreds of times. So Kid there's the deep end in you get."

Newb: "Um Sir?  I'm afraid of the drop...and the water...and Eddie Groves."

TH: "Don't worry kid, all you need is experience. Besides I've got a cure for your nervousness."

Newb: "Really? is it a boat sir?"

TH: "No my foot."

Newb: "Aaarrggghhhhh"

TH: "Good luck kid! Remember..experience!!!"



@TH - some people learn wit the sink or swim approach to teaching...others find it a tad difficult.

Cheers

Sir O


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## Timmy (22 June 2009)

Sir - start on a Simulator, not getting chucked in at the deep end.  So the cliff and swirling water is just on a screen at first.  Sort of like a Wii, sink or swim in the comfort of your own lounge room.


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

I am obviously upsetting one of sir O's income "streams" by the amount of time he put into the last post


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I am obviously upsetting one of sir O's income "streams" by the amount of time he put into the last post




Yes TH It's very upsetting. Keep telling yourself that.  You made a difference.

@ Timmy - Not according to TH.  All you need is a huge account and lots of practice.  I might beg to differ to that statement and actually agree with you that some methodology, systems, risk management techniques, position sizing, self discipline and training (either self taught or with a mentor) might be handy, but who am I to argue eh?

Cheers

Sir O


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Yes TH It's very upsetting. Keep telling yourself that.  You made a difference.
> 
> @ Timmy - Not according to TH.  All you need is a huge account and lots of practice.  I might beg to differ to that statement and actually agree with you that some methodology, systems, risk management techniques, position sizing, self discipline and training (either self taught or with a mentor) might be handy, but who am I to argue eh?
> 
> ...




What is this dude on.

A desk jockey has all the answers hey 

Not only to why you should buy his course though its not working for him cuz his still jobbing away trying to shave other peoples money.

But what I'm about. This is why this place is full of it.

experts that cannot do it.


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## ThingyMajiggy (22 June 2009)

Would be an interesting comparison. 

Trader A with a huge account and lots of practice

vs

Trader B with a 2 day course using a live trading account.


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> What is this dude on.
> 
> A desk jockey has all the answers hey
> 
> ...




Well TH in my not so humble opinion (hey that sounds familiar hint hint - tell me if I'm being too subtle).  Perhaps I'm using humour to suggest *you* are full of it.  Of course not everyone is as brilliant as you I am sure, and our motives behind running these courses have absolutely nothing to do with the financial well being of our clients and instead are designed to feather our own nests because we cannot "do it".  No I get it - all us guys in the financial industry are evil sods who need to be tarred and feathered right? /sarcasm

Just because a a teaching course also needs to not hemorrhage cash flow from other areas of the business, does not make us greedy bastards. I might not have my gold toilet seat yet, but the lessons I teach others are the same ones I've used for financial stability.  

Try not to be too prejudiced towards people within the industry in future TH.  We're not all Wolves of Wall street you know?

Cheers

Sir O


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## warezwana (22 June 2009)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Would be an interesting comparison.
> 
> Trader A with a huge account and lots of practice
> 
> ...




I'd like to know that outcome but my money is on the huge account/virtual and practice.... 



Sir Osisofliver said:


> Just because a a teaching course also needs to not hemorrhage cash flow from other areas of the business, does not make us greedy bastards. I might not have my gold toilet seat yet, but the lessons I teach others are the same ones I've used for financial stability.
> 
> Try not to be too prejudiced towards people within the industry in future TH.  We're not all Wolves of Wall street you know?
> 
> ...



'Not all greedy bastards'...  I'd like to actually see ONE that's not. Maybe lets see a Training Company put up and shut up.. Train the newb's FREE and just ask for what they think is a fair payment once they start actually trading for real. Call it 'Results Based Payment'.... IF I was trained in this manor I know I'd pay well if I was sure I was going to make well....!!!
They are all just trained by this trader of the century, or know this Trader of the century and are mentored by blah blah blah... I seriously think the only REAL way is through reading and TRYING...
My reasoning... Optionetics 250'000 students so they say, ok SO 
          250'000 (student base so they say)
          x $3'000.00
    $750'000'000.00
                               Don't forget to add the 50% or so people that 
                               have paid for Platinum/ProfitSource etc not to
                               mention the $2000 to learn to use it... 
                               ok add maybe a conservative 
      350'000'000.00
     1050'000'000.00 
                               Anyone tell me why George or Alex trade the markets... pfffft  but im not bitter, im just out of pocket 
Just my 2c

Anyone read 'Wolves of Wall Street' I saw that and was thinking it looked interesting to read!


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## waza1960 (22 June 2009)

I think there is a good alternative course for those interested I'm doing a diploma course in share trading ATM and I think its quite good.I'm not going to mention the name of the course because I don't want to be accused of promoting it  but if you google you would find it.I think it is good because it is reasonable value for money in that it does cost a bit under 6k but there are hundreds of hours study involved with assignments and case studies which really make you think about the subject matter.I really hesitated to post this information as I'm sure it will open up some critisism but I feel its important to make all study options known.While I commend and admire the successfull traders and their opinions on this forum I don't go along with the proposition that experience and practise are the only ways of being successfull i.e you can lose a lot of money gaining experience any way my


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Try not to be too prejudiced towards people within the industry in future TH.  We're not all Wolves of Wall street you know?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Sir O




Nah Sir O you were the one that took offence from my post saying that if someone claims to be an expert and promises their course is worth $7000 ask for proof that they can make it work. 

You were the one that chose to align yourself with the original poster snake oil salesman. not me.

And you still haven't answerd me to why every other hoppy course cost about 1/10 of trading courses.


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

waza1960 said:


> .While I commend and admire the successfull traders and their opinions on this forum I don't go along with the proposition that experience and practise are the only ways of being successfull i.e you can lose a lot of money gaining experience any way my




WTF 

I didn't say practise with real money. I have never said that.  EVER!!!!!!

And if you think that what is in your course is the difference between profit and loss why is that everyone knows that stuff but so very few can make real money from that knowledge


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## kam75 (22 June 2009)

juststarting said:


> I attended a seminar on the weekend and one of the speakers was Lyn Summers and she has a stock trading course called "Stockcourse" - has anyone done this course and if so was it worth the $7000?










What sort of a dumbass would pay someone $7,000 bucks for a stockmarket course?  As if there wasn't enough information available on the net.


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## tech/a (22 June 2009)

Hmmm
I dont know that I agree with most here.
I'm actually siding with SirO.
Also with T/H.

Frankly a sound education in anything would be/is $1000s.
Have a look at your HEX payments.
Go learn to fly a plane or a Chopper.
If you think your education in trading ISNT costing you $1000s think again.

Years ago I did an Advanced Business Management Diploma with The Uni of Adelaide.
It was $5k ea and I had 3 staff with me.

Now I thought "Ive been in business 25 yrs what can a bunch of academics teach me?"
I came out with the answer---Plenty!
But will also say that I got more out of it than my staff!
Thats why you get more from a book on the second read.

But I agree with T/H.
I want to know my teachers can actually Do!
That they are the real deal.
If I'm satisfied then I'll the assess value for money.


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## Aussiest (22 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Just because a a teaching course also needs to not hemorrhage cash flow from other areas of the business, does not make us greedy bastards. I might not have my gold toilet seat yet, but the lessons I teach others are the same ones I've used for financial stability.
> 
> Try not to be too prejudiced towards people within the industry in future TH.  We're not all Wolves of Wall street you know?




There would have to be a small % of providers that are in it for the right reasons. 

From what you've said Sir Osisofliver, your company provides charting software, reading material and other tangible aids. Teach a man/woman to fish, and they'll fish forever. If a provider is teaching principles of share trading and technical analysis and can substantiate this, then i don't see a problem using their services if this is what you require.


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> Frankly *a sound education *in anything would be/is $1000s.
> Have a look at your HEX payments.
> 
> If you think your education in trading ISNT costing you $1000s think again.



 yes the underlying being the important bit. Whats on offer from these dudes that professe to hold the secrets is not sound education.

And there is no recourse once you find out they will not deliver the promised dreams. Unlike most other education.



tech/a said:


> Go learn to fly a plane or a Chopper.




Well that's a fine example. The diff between a flying course and the average stock course is literally 100000000 miles. To teach flying.

You have an accredited license.
You have to be audited,
You have to have insurance,
You have to actually be able to fly.

Apparently to teach trading you have to just promise BS.


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## Iggy_Pop (22 June 2009)

Before paying $7K for a course, give yourself some time to read books on trading (there are a few good books mentioned on this forum), and use the internet, magazines to get an understanding of the market and trading. Some of the newsletters providers have a free trial and this also is helpful in learning trading.  

Then if still a bit unsure, look at training from a selection of training providers and get an understanding of what you are getting for your money.

A practice account is one way to learn but it is different when it is real money

All the best


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## skyQuake (22 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> And there is no recourse once you find out they will not deliver the promised dreams. Unlike most other education.




orly?

So if i want my HECS removed for all those CAPM and EMH topics in finance i can do that?


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## Timmy (22 June 2009)

skyQuake said:


> all those CAPM and EMH topics in finance i can do that?




Sucker


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## Trembling Hand (22 June 2009)

skyQuake said:


> So if i want my HECS removed for all those CAPM and EMH topics in finance i can do that?




That was your dream  :


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## tech/a (23 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> yes the underlying being the important bit. Whats on offer from these dudes that professe to hold the secrets is not sound education.
> 
> And there is no recourse once you find out they will not deliver the promised dreams. Unlike most other education.




Don't know about that---there are failures in everything.
Unfortunately MOST education wont allow a failure regardless of how in competent they are.
Mind you you'll soon know you cant fly a plane *AND* cant trade!




> Well that's a fine example. The diff between a flying course *and the average *stock course is literally 100000000 miles. To teach flying.
> 
> You have an accredited license.
> You have to be audited,
> ...




Average stock course yes.

But good educators ARE licienced--with THEIR OWN licience not a rented one!
They have proven track records that can be audited.
They can actually trade.

But if you wish to learn DIRECTLY from these people you'll have to pay and pay what its worth which is more than a few 100 dollars.

Most people want the dream.
Most people want the dream for free.
They fool themselves that its cheap.
When accounts are wiped out how cheap is cheap?


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## Sir Osisofliver (23 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah Sir O you were the one that took offence from my post saying that if someone claims to be an expert and promises their course is worth $7000 ask for proof that they can make it work.



 Actually TH I took offence at being called a desk jockey who couldn't do it and a scam artist who was having one of his income streams upset.  







> You were the one that chose to align yourself with the original poster snake oil salesman. not me.



I think I've fairly well differentiated what we do from what was described by the OP's comment to not be confused with a snake oil salesman.







> And you still haven't answerd me to why every other hoppy course cost about 1/10 of trading courses.



 You;re right I didn't. But that may be because I have no idea what other people charge and frankly don't care.  FYI if you take away the cost of the software (which is provided by a third party), the remaining cost of our course works out less than $100 an hour, so by your own definition the course we do would seem to be good value for money.

Tech A has hit upon an important consideration.  Some _educators_ are licenced (or refered to as RTO's Registered Training Organisations).  What this means of course is that if they produce educational material....they cannot make stuff up.  Perhaps that is something to look for when you see these things advertised.


TH perhaps this might help explain why I think _*some*_ training courses are worthwhile.......


Tell me what you don't know about trading and the market.  Ok I know that is a loaded question, how can you tell me what you don't know?  You have no way of knowing what it is that you don't know.  You also have no way of knowing how important what it is you don't know is.  It might be something simple along the lines of "What is a partly paid security?" Brisconnections anyone?  

Where you are at the moment, having built up a vast amount of knowledge and skills, what you don't know is probably relatively small and probably not going to damage you, as opposed to someone who is yet to learn those hard won lessons that you yourself learnt. But whilst you were in that position of not knowing what you now know, _you were just as vulnerable to that lack of information_. THAT is what I want to protect and educate people about, and that is what a well designed educational course *should* do.

Cheers

Sir O


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## Nick Radge (23 June 2009)

> You have an accredited license.
> You have to be audited,
> You have to have insurance




There are various levels of educators:

1. Full ASIC licensed. These need to show that they have the skills to provide the service and that these skills have been learnt from actually working in the business - not just studying it trading one's own account. They also need to have adequate indemnity insurance, be externally audited, provide ASIC all trading statements when requested, prove any claims made and complete ongoing education.

2. Rented ASIC license. These are usually held by people who don't qualify for some of the above yet have a product that they wish to operate under a license. There are a few operators who will 'lease' their license out to 3rd parties.

3. Accredited Training Courses. These people do not hold any ASIC license but have gained some accreditation for being able to teach others, in this case, trading. Anyone can do the course by walking in off the street and become accredited without any prior education in the markets. Subjects: Select a profitable company in a timely and accurate context; Determine the purchase price of a share; Select stock market strategies; Implement a trading plan; Trade options with use of leverage strategies; Determine portfolio requirements; Apply basic communication skills; Operate a Personal Computer; Using a keyboard; Use business technology.

4. Others. These tend to be people who have not thought to get a license or who would like to circumnavigate the reasons for getting a license. A very large proportion of operators fall into this category. Some mean well, others not so.  

As usual - "its buyer beware" and "if its too good too be true, then it usually is"


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## Trembling Hand (23 June 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> You;re right I didn't. But that may be because I have no idea what other people charge and frankly don't care.  FYI if you take away the cost of the software (which is provided by a third party), the remaining cost of our course works out less than $100 an hour, so by your own definition the course we do would seem to be good value for money.




Yes well there you go. We agree.



Trembling Hand said:


> If they said to their potential clients that they where teaching you the basics to build on that would be acceptable and in that case the amount charged should be in line with other introductory courses put on for every other subject. That would be in the $50 to $100 an hour.
> 
> But they don't. They spew BS about riches from a couple of hours work. What does your firm say the clients are getting Sir O?



I see now why you went off rambling about my large capital and practise comment. The section in blue should of been separated. It was not meant to implicate you in the education scam. It was just an enquiry as to what you offered to clients. As stated in the same post we agree. Even on price 

BUT I have written plenty here on the learning to trade subject and my position has always been that the basics are just that, the basics building blocks. What separates the successful and the struggling punter is the practise (sim or backtest not real $$'s) and the large account to sustain drawdowns and not needing to make 400% each year to beat cost and make the effort worth while. These two points are skipped over by _most _educators just to get the punters in the door.


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## tech/a (23 June 2009)

> Tell me what you don't know about trading and the market.



Good point.

But then also.
Tell me what you DONT need to know about trading the market.


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## beamstas (23 June 2009)

Not all educators are there to rip you off.
This thread is getting a bit long for my attention span, i've only done one "course"/"seminar"/"workbook" (i guess it qualifies as a stock course? ) and it is WELL worth the money.


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## juststarting (23 June 2009)

Thank you to everyone that replied.  I know absolutely nothing about the stock market and certainly nothing about options, but I know many of you are very experienced traders, can anyone out there tell me if they have had personal experience doing a course and what price would be fair. I have to crawl before I can run.


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## warezwana (23 June 2009)

juststarting said:


> can anyone out there tell me if they have had personal experience doing a course and what price would be fair.




I can shamefully say I was suckered into the slick sales of Optionetics as a blinded newb and *NO*...thats a *NO* I do not think their course is one to take $3000-4000 best spent on books, questions on the forum and hours and hours and even more hours of Virtual trading.

My current direction as a newbie might be where your at also (or could head) - trying to get AmiBroker set up with some sort of settings to run scans and backtesting and apply some buy/sell signals... My spare time - buying Calls and selling Puts.


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## Sir Osisofliver (23 June 2009)

Nick Radge said:


> There are various levels of educators:
> 
> 1. Full ASIC licensed. These need to show that they have the skills to provide the service and that these skills have been learnt from actually working in the business - not just studying it trading one's own account. They also need to have adequate indemnity insurance, be externally audited, provide ASIC all trading statements when requested, prove any claims made and complete ongoing education.
> 
> ...





I mentioned RTO (Registered Training Organisation).  An RTO (which has nothing to do with ASIC licence holders) is able to accredit specific courses, a requirement of which is that the presenter/slash teacher has Cert IV qualifications (registered trainer). It's an education department thing.  

It means that a company that has an ASIC licence AND is an RTO can run courses that comply with CPD (Continuing Professional Development) point requirements, can give examinations, and can issue professional acreditation within that course.  Eg Kaplan Higher Education Pty Ltd holds an RTO (I think).

Cheers

Sir O


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## Ruby (28 June 2009)

Sir O........ I have been following this thread with great interest and would like to add my view....

I don't agree that all trading courses are a scam.  I started my trading career with one - quite expensive - in 2000, and it was well worth every penny.  Just reading books is not enough.   You need a mentor - someone to guide you through the minefield, keep you on the right track, give you support

There are some very honest people selling very good courses, with lots of follow up support, who also produce trading statements.  I know some of them.

If someone spends months preparing and writing a course, using years of hard-won expertise, collecting data for examples, testing strategies, and then has to bear the cost of marketing etc, then he / she is quite justified in charging suitabley for services.  Otherwise it is just not viable.

In the end it comes down to value for money, and that is difficult to determine.  Word of mouth is a good way....... 

I also once worked for a share trading educator in Bris, and their couse is a big rip-off - absolute rubbish - antiquated and full of padding.  Do lots of research !!


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## Medici (29 June 2009)

For $7000 i could buy some BHP today for a day trading


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## wayneL (29 June 2009)

*Perceived Value*

Can I ask a rhetorical question of the forum? Let's say you are in the market for a course... tech analysis, options, whatever. You find three separate vendors of courses that all sound like they are offering what you think you want:

Course A is $500
Course B is $2000
Course C is $5000

Which one would you buy?

In the cold light of day, and presuming all offered comparable information, the $500 course is a no brainer, but people tend to prefer to pay for the more expensive courses because of "perceived value"

Folks think more expensive must be better.

On the other side of the trade, the vendor is thinking - How many courses do I have to sell to make a million?

Is it just as hard (or perhaps even harder) to sell a $500 course as a $2-5000 course?

You have to sell 2000 $500 courses to make a million.
You have to sell 500 $2000 courses to make a million.
You only have to sell 200 $5000 courses to make a million.

What is the demand at each price point.

How much marketing effort and expenditure is required to achieve the above results?

It's an interesting question, because here is the detail on some option courses I have stumbled across recently

A covered call course for $297 USD
A put spread course for $5000 AUD
A comprehensive and very good entire option trading course for $2000 USD

The covered call course is quite good for what it is teaching, but I could write up a pamphlet and cover the same thing in probably 5000 words.

The put spread course is outrageously poor value, the less said there the better.

The "whole enchilada" course seems quite good value as it covers just about everything in a very capable fashion.

Yet the laughable put spread course is pulling in plenty of muppets coughing up $5k for what again could be covered in about 5000 words or less.

The same clown is doing a one on one day trading options course for $20k  Yet when I asked him on his forum - why day trade options instead of CFDs or futures - He couldn't give a sound answer.

Further more pressing questions were deleted. (I was damaging that "perceived value" )

It's a fascinating marketing study.. well I find it interesting anyway.

Any thoughts?


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## prawn_86 (29 June 2009)

Going slightly off topic here Wayne, but as you may know i study a marketing degree and perceived value is a big part of what we get taught.

Im happy to talk about it in another thread if you think its worthy.

Essentially (and obviously) people/co's should try and increase their perceived value as much as possible. The higher the perceived value, the higher the profit margin. Think Lexus and Toyota. Essenially the same parts, just tweaked a little, yet sells for so much more because of the 'luxury' tag they have attached to the brand.

I could go on about this for hours, but i'll stop here...


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## Nero64 (29 June 2009)

http://shop.elder.com/shopexd.asp?id=340

roll up roll up 

Dr Alexander Elder's trading camps in the carribean

price US$2475

Something is not quite right. Having a trading camp on an island where chicks are toplesss on the beach and bars are like pickup joints. How could you conentrate on trading. Surely you could learn all his trading ideas in his 4 books and study guides. I have nearly read two of his books. I prefer him to Van Tharp.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (30 June 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Going slightly off topic here Wayne, but as you may know i study a marketing degree and perceived value is a big part of what we get taught.
> 
> *Im happy to talk about it in another thread if you think its worthy.*
> 
> ...




Prawn,

I would love to hear all about it if you have the time.


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## wayneL (30 June 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Prawn,
> 
> I would love to hear all about it if you have the time.




Yep me too.


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## Nick Radge (30 June 2009)

I tend to agree with Prawn. Perceived value is something we see a lot of. People compare our $330 course to others at over $5000 and usually go with the $5000. I actually just spoke to a gentleman yesterday who attended our $220 seminar in Melbourne last year. Who said to me just yesterday that he sat in the seminar waiting for the sales spiel for the $5000 course thinking the $220 was an introductory course. It never came.

My view is twofold on both parties:

The Client - 
1. expects a higher value course to provide more profitable strategies
2. tends to be in a hurry to make profits and is in 'fast track' mode

The Seller:
1. High value seller looks for one off sales without expectation of repeat business
2. Low value seller looks for repeat business and reputation

We have clients who have been with us for over 10-years and will buy anything new we offer. Same with someone like, Colin Nicholson, Alan Hull and Daryl Guppy - we never get a single Guppy book, its always full sets of 4 or 5. 

There is a course here in Noosa that does weekend seminars, 2-days, for over $5000. All the info is presented very stylishly, but its also found on the ASX website for free.

Interested in your views to Prawn.


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## tech/a (30 June 2009)

Lower pricing repeat business is good business,if of course results and feedback remain positive.

Client bases increase --- word of mouth increases.
So the one off pedlars dont care what feedback they have---they have their money and are gone.

Sound educators with continuing proven track records will grow as will their following/client base.
Value then becomes very real to both the client and the educator.

Client--genuine value
Educator--loyalty


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## dasmith1973 (30 June 2009)

Wandering off topic too...perception of value seems to me to be a key driver.  This question (what course do I do?) comes up many times doesn't it as a person starting out is trying to find their way (me included in the beginning).  I admit I have done a course myself & in hindsight I have thought at times 'why did I spend that money' but for my personal situation it did provide the education I required at the time & commenced my trading journey. With the knowledge I have now I would do it differently but that's called hindsight isn't it & now my perception of value has changed!

I can see a few issues that needs to be wrested with:

Firsly there is the basic legal or moral question, ie is the course / presenter ripping me off or making faudulent claims. That's what these forums are great at, sifting the wheat from the chaff, but once that is sorted you are left with the 2nd even more difficult question of value.

How do I value the proposed information (ie course etc) & is a personal question.  I come from a professional field (engineering) where you realise a person's time & information does have value & is worth paying for.  When you add up the numbers ($/hr, cost of materials, hire etc) its not hard to see why a person has to charge at least some reasonable amount to cover costs, then there is the value of the information (or Int property it could be called), even if its repeating information found elsewhere it has value doesn't it, you are paying someone to collate the information for you!

What's hard sometimes as its overlapped by the first point isn't it as a lot of 'interesting' claims are made by vendors.  I have no problem with someone choosing a $200 or $2K course as long as they genuinely get 'value' whatever that is.

The other option of course is to DYI (do it yourself) but again takes time & money, it can't be escaped, education takes time & money.

There certainly are a lot of options out there & I hate to give a recommendation as everyone is different, at least the forum discussions highlights the junk & gives some ideas about what might be worth trying.

The one thing I will note it the one training area I think is lacking is for those interested in modelling, backtesting, programming etc, that takes a lot of personal time to figure out & very few, maybe 1 organisation actually teaches it (for a fair number of $ of course).  If I had more time I would write one myself!

just my personal 2c of babble...........

Chrs, Dave


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