# The Science Thread



## SirRumpole (27 April 2016)

Hopefully this thread will allow some lateral thinking apart from politics.

Fascinating...


No brain? No problem! Single-cell slime mould can learn


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/slime-mould-can-learn-even-without-brain/7363176
--


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## CanOz (27 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hopefully this thread will allow some lateral thinking apart from politics.
> 
> Fascinating...
> 
> ...




Well this is actually a stock forum, in case you didn't notice?


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## SirRumpole (27 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> Well this is actually a stock forum, in case you didn't notice?




What does "General Chat" mean ?

Maybe we should get rid of the Gay Marriage and other unworthy threads too ?


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## Knobby22 (27 April 2016)

Good idea though. We have some very strange threads in the General area, on religion and other subjects.

Anyone watch Catalyst last night?
It appears the main way to stop short sightedness is bright sunshine!


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## SirRumpole (27 April 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Good idea though. We have some very strange threads in the General area, on religion and other subjects.
> 
> Anyone watch Catalyst last night?
> It appears the main way to stop short sightedness is bright sunshine!




I wish we knew that 60 years ago , I've been very myopic all my life.


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## CanOz (27 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> What does "General Chat" mean ?
> 
> Maybe we should get rid of the Gay Marriage and other unworthy threads too ?




I was just suggesting that maybe you could CONTRIBUTE to the main purpose of the forum? Or do you hunt out trading and investing forums to pester the f*** out of the Liberals?


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## SirRumpole (27 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> I was just suggesting that maybe you could CONTRIBUTE to the main purpose of the forum? Or do you hunt out trading and investing forums to pester the f*** out of the Liberals?




Damn, you found me out !


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## pixel (27 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> I was just suggesting that maybe you could CONTRIBUTE to the main purpose of the forum? Or do you hunt out trading and investing forums to pester the f*** out of the Liberals?



Much as I come here for share trading discussions, and much as I value ASF as the focal point for everything related to the stockmarket, I reckon a Science thread is a wonderful idea.
If the Lib-Nats are as anti-Science as they are anti-Gay and anti-so-much-else, then it's about time the f*** got pestered out of them and they left this thread to those who prefer a positive discussion of scientific topics..


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## basilio (27 April 2016)

Excellent idea for a thread.  Probably a bit broad but hopefully an interesting an constructive addition to ASF.  Makes me think.
Cheers


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> Well this is actually a stock forum, in case you didn't notice?




I think science is a very important topic for investors.

I think the best investors often have a very broad based interest in gaining knowledge in all areas, including science.

A couple of years ago I was asked by a young friend of the family what he should study to become a good investor, I said everything, eg you need to have good English and maths skills, and a good understanding of science, geography, history, business and offcourse a deep understanding of capital markets and various types of securities etc.

I certainly don't think a thread on science is out of place in an investment forum general chat.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I think science is a very important topic for investors.
> 
> I think the best investors often have a very broad based interest in gaining knowledge in all areas, including science.
> 
> ...




A good understanding of human nature and psychology helps too.


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## orr (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I think science is a very important topic for investors.
> 
> I think the best investors often have a very broad based interest in gaining knowledge in all areas, including science.




Computer science has remade the world and is continuing to... QUB's port automation; look at the struggle of the MUA just to keep the jobs they have as we speak. As this unfolds into broader logistics, we're already well down the path, the demand for labour will plummet  The interstate truck drivers days are numbered.

A modern computerised rotary dairy is a model of sublime production. Herd health analysis, production per cow all integrated into broader farm management.

The French Submarine announcement... designed to be nuclear powered, ours will be diesel/electric, 30 year build programme. South Australia has its current Royal Commission into the Nuclear Fuel Cycle. A lot could change in thirty years.

The next 'Australian of the Year' is likely to believe we evolved from aliens... 

Give us the Gonski reforms or give us intellectual obscurity.    

And mind you there's a 'bob' in a 'Meth Lab' for the gamers.

Science so much for everyone.


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

orr said:


> .
> 
> Science so much for everyone.




lol, Dawkins sums it up in 3 seconds


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## qldfrog (28 April 2016)

And this is the place where we could release the latest on fusion as per:http://www.lockheedmartin.com.au/us/products/compact-fusion.html

As a result I put a bit of cash in their shares LMT in the US


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

If Heston Blumenthal has turned cookery into a science, why not?

Good idea for a thread me thinks as the arts of science permeates all aspect of our lives including stock/trading.

HFT algo's, T/A s/ware and the whole host of tools we have at our disposal being made available thanks to the science of numbers and such.


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## skc (28 April 2016)

All you need to now about science...


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

NASA puts viewers on the surface of Mars in 360-degree video by Curiosity space rover


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...e-surface-of-mars-in-360-degree-video/7367124

Almost looks inviting doesn't it ?


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

Of particular interest is the: Rise of the machines/Digital Disruption.

Our lives will be very different before we know it thanks to "autobots". I'd never thought I'd live to see the day of driverless cars but there ya go.

Where to after the robot vacuum cleaner and home automation?

Just a taste: http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/26/hover-camera-drone-zero-zero-robotics/

[video]https://youtu.be/TCWbIrE5bmI[/video]


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Craton said:


> Of particular interest is the: Rise of the machines/Digital Disruption.
> 
> Our lives will be very different before we know it thanks to "autobots". I'd never thought I'd live to see the day of driverless cars but there ya go.
> 
> Where to after the robot vacuum cleaner and home automation?




Public confidence is the key to more automation.

I would quite happily have an automated vacuum cleaner, but I'd be less happy about automated taxis or public transport where there was no human able to take over in case of a program glitch.

Of course there is also a place for computers taking over when the human driver has gone to sleep.


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Public confidence is the key to more automation.
> 
> I would quite happily have an automated vacuum cleaner, but I'd be less happy about automated taxis or public transport where there was no human able to take over in case of a program glitch.
> 
> Of course there is also a place for computers taking over when the human driver has gone to sleep.




Yeah. Confidence and TRUST. Two big factors me thinks.


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Public confidence is the key to more automation.
> 
> .




Warren Buffet actually mentioned driverless cars as being a possible future risk to his vehicle insurance businesses.

He feels that in the future years, as driverless cars become more common place, vehicle accidents will be reduced so much, that there will be downward pressure on premium prices, reducing the float (the money he holds onto and earns interest on in between collecting it and paying claims)

________________________________

Here is an interesting video talking about the "swarm learning" of the auto pilot tesla cars, when one car learns something, it teaches the rest.


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

Craton said:


> Yeah. Confidence and TRUST. Two big factors me thinks.




there is also some ethical problems to work out.

eg. if the car meets a situation where it has to choose between hitting a person or swerving and hitting a power pole which does it take.

hitting the pole will save the life of the person, but who will buy a car programed to put the occupant at more risk???


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Warren Buffet actually mentioned driverless cars as being a possible future risk to his vehicle insurance businesses.
> 
> He feels that in the future years, as driverless cars become more common place, vehicle accidents will be reduced so much, that there will be downward pressure on premium prices, reducing the float (the money he holds onto and earns interest on in between collecting it and paying claims)
> 
> ...





Couldn't the insurers just come up with new insurance? I bet they will.

Say, insure passengers/predestrians in case one of those many auto-piloted cars  didn't see them? Jack up premium due to "increased risks" from "untested" technologies - say taxis or couriers or truck companies who automate their fleet but have no driver - that's a big risk deserving higher premiums and businesses will pay for it because they would have saved heaps on cutting plenty of payrolls head off.

It's not like insurers are, or has ever been, insuring really risky stuff. They just insure perceived risk that on average happen a couple times, at most, in an average client's lifetime.

Buffett is probably a very nice guy. But he's a capitalist... and we know how nice and honest capitalist can be.


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> there is also some ethical problems to work out.
> 
> eg. if the car meets a situation where it has to choose between hitting a person or swerving and hitting a power pole which does it take.
> 
> hitting the pole will save the life of the person, but who will buy a car programed to put the occupant at more risk???




Good point.

I guess it will depends on who will pick up the tab. Probably best that we'd then not insure the car; or only insure it with companies that have no holdings in the developers of these auto-pilot.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> I was just suggesting that maybe you could CONTRIBUTE to the main purpose of the forum? Or do you hunt out trading and investing forums to pester the f*** out of the Liberals?




*NO BRAIN...NO PROBLEM FOR THAT LOW TYPE OF ACTION.*


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Couldn't the insurers just come up with new insurance? I bet they will.
> 
> Say, insure passengers/predestrians in case one of those many auto-piloted cars  didn't see them? Jack up premium due to "increased risks" from "untested" technologies - say taxis or couriers or truck companies who automate their fleet but have no driver - that's a big risk deserving higher premiums and businesses will pay for it because they would have saved heaps on cutting plenty of payrolls head off.
> 
> ...




At the end of the day the price charged for insurance is affected by actuarials, the insurance companies compete on price very aggressively, as the actuarials begin to reflect lower and lower numbers of actual accidents occurring premiums will come down.

most insurers are in the business for the float, and accordingly charge the bare minimum for their premiums so as to sell a lot more premiums, and are ok with not earning much of an underwriting profit as long as it provides them a float and they can cover their costs and claims.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

orr said:


> Computer science has remade the world and is continuing to... QUB's port automation; look at the struggle of the MUA just to keep the jobs they have as we speak. As this unfolds into broader logistics, we're already well down the path, the demand for labour will plummet  The interstate truck drivers days are numbered.
> 
> A modern computerised rotary dairy is a model of sublime production. Herd health analysis, production per cow all integrated into broader farm management.
> 
> ...




But how do you plan to get it all past the Greens and the unions?


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> *NO BRAIN...NO PROBLEM FOR THAT LOW TYPE OF ACTION.*




I guess the tone of this thread had to suffer sometime.

What a shame, as it doesn't involve politics or trashing other people I didn't think it would appeal to you.


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> At the end of the day the price charged for insurance is affected by actuarials, the insurance companies compete on price very aggressively, as the actuarials begin to reflect lower and lower numbers of actual accidents occurring premiums will come down.
> 
> most insurers are in the business for the float, and accordingly charge the bare minimum for their premiums so as to sell a lot more premiums, and are ok with not earning much of an underwriting profit as long as it provides them a float and they can cover their costs and claims.




Yea, that's how I'd put it too if I own or run an insurance business.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I guess the tone of this thread had to suffer sometime.
> 
> What a shame, as it doesn't involve politics or trashing other people I didn't think it would appeal to you.




OK Rumpy.....you did ask for it....But one poster suggested it would a good thread to pester the F*** out of the Liberals....I thought you wanted to keep politics out of this thread..Perhaps you should give Canoz a smack on the hand for being a naughty boy.

But on the serious side.

How about a nuclear powered car manufactured in South Australia by robots?..No unions....no strikes...No lunch breaks...No smokos.....No penalty rates.....No holiday pay...No leave loading.

What a wonderful world it would be!!!!!!!!


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Warren Buffet actually mentioned driverless cars as being a possible future risk to his vehicle insurance businesses.
> 
> He feels that in the future years, as driverless cars become more common place, vehicle accidents will be reduced so much, that there will be downward pressure on premium prices, reducing the float (the money he holds onto and earns interest on in between collecting it and paying claims)




Actually I think Buffet was either talking tongue in cheek or being very generous. If he thought driverless cars were a threat to his business he should have shut up and quietly sold out of insurance and bought Tesla shares.


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

Derek makes some awesome videos on you tube, where he takes a topic most people take for granted, and see's how the average person explains it, he then tries and teach the actual science behind it.

Here is his video on how the sun works.


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## Joe Blow (28 April 2016)

Folks, let's try and keep this thread civil and free of political debate please. There are enough other threads to discuss politics in, let's leave this one for purely science related discussion.


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## Value Collector (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Actually I think Buffet was either talking tongue in cheek or being very generous. If he thought driverless cars were a threat to his business he should have shut up and quietly sold out of insurance and bought Tesla shares.




you be the judge, if he is serious.

I think he is very serious.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> you be the judge, if he is serious.
> 
> I think he is very serious.





OK, serious and honest, good on him.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

Joe Blow said:


> Folks, let's try and keep this thread civil and free of political debate please. There are enough other threads to discuss politics in, let's leave this one for purely science related discussion.




Yes Joe..I agree.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Derek makes some awesome videos on you tube, where he takes a topic most people take for granted, and see's how the average person explains it, he then tries and teach the actual science behind it.
> 
> Here is his video on how the sun works.





Geez, can you believe how ignorant some people are ?


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Here is an interesting video talking about the "swarm learning" of the auto pilot tesla cars, when one car learns something, it teaches the rest.




Swarm learning is great in theory, but ripe for hacking by terrorists or the PLA.


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## cynic (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Geez, can you believe how ignorant some people are ?




Yes I certainly can. That video has brought up one of my pet hates, namely Einstein being credited with one of Newtons discoveries.

E=mc^2 is in fact just another way of expressing Newton's kinetic energy formula!

It is truly amazing how this is seldom noticed!


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## noco (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Derek makes some awesome videos on you tube, where he takes a topic most people take for granted, and see's how the average person explains it, he then tries and teach the actual science behind it.
> 
> Here is his video on how the sun works.





Great post VC....Very informative.


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## qldfrog (28 April 2016)

Craton said:


> Yeah. Confidence and TRUST. Two big factors me thinks.



but you drive everyday with morons crossing your way in 2tons truck/cars and zipping by within 30 cm at 90km/h
would you not trust a computer more than the statictics of 
% of ice addict driver, 
"i got my licence (if any) by paying  a cousin in Bangalore", 
"I had no money to repair the brakes etc"
once dead , who cares if you have someone to blame...
I like driving for whatever pleasure is left when the game is to nab you to increase state revenues, but taxi wise, i would go for a robot any day


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> Great post VC....Very informative.




Er no sorry, that type of video is one of my pet hates. Too much hype and trying to get ignorant/stupid people to understand wastes too much time. I'm sure it could be done a lot more efficiently.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Er no sorry, that type of video is one of my pet hates. Too much hype and trying to get *ignorant/stupid people* to understand wastes too much time. I'm sure it could be done a lot more efficiently.




Rumpy, please note...Joe has asked you to keep things civil...If you cannot follow his request then you should delete this thread.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> Rumpy, please note...Joe has asked you to keep things civil...If you cannot follow his request then you should delete this thread.




I was talking about people on the video, not anyone here.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

qldfrog said:


> but you drive everyday with morons crossing your way in 2tons truck/cars and zipping by within 30 cm at 90km/h
> would you not trust a computer more than the statictics of
> % of ice addict driver,
> "i got my licence (if any) by paying  a cousin in Bangalore",
> ...




Yes, but if a human hits you you can sue them for your broken leg, try suing a computer chip.


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

qldfrog said:


> but you drive everyday with morons crossing your way in 2tons truck/cars and zipping by within 30 cm at 90km/h
> would you not trust a computer more than the statictics of
> % of ice addict driver,
> "i got my licence (if any) by paying  a cousin in Bangalore",
> ...




Yes, we share the road with other road users, doesn't mean we trust them per se.

That's not the type of trust I was referring to. Currently, I doubt a computer driven car can stop a roo, emu, bush pig, deer, moose or a tyre blow out and the like.

I was thinking along the lines of trusting that no nefarious use of the technology would ensue. You know, like hacking, privacy issues and the like.

My bad for not making that clear from the onset.


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## cynic (28 April 2016)

Craton said:


> Yes, we share the road with other road users, doesn't mean we trust them per se.
> 
> That's not the type of trust I was referring to. Currently, I doubt a computer driven car can stop a roo, emu, bush pig, deer, moose or a tyre blow out and the like.
> 
> ...




A further issue is the way in which humans become enamoured with technology. I have lost count of the number of times I have had fruitless arguments with customer service staff whom are quite simply unable to entertain the possibility of computer error.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I was talking about people on the video, not anyone here.




You could have fooled me old mate.


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

cynic said:


> A further issue is the way in which humans become enamoured with technology. I have lost count of the number of times I have had fruitless arguments with customer service staff whom are quite simply unable to entertain the possibility of computer error.




That'll be funny. I can just see it now, the occupant in the driverless car going ballistic because the battery went flat after the low battery warning LED/Meter failed.

You do raise a point though. Computing for the masses is still a relatively new phenomenon, one which the world has embraced all too eagerly but we are still coming to terms with it and assimilating it into our ways of life.

Obviously those support staff don't know that most things created by man will eventually wear or/and fail. To err is human, to really stuff up takes a computer.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Craton said:


> Obviously those support staff don't know that most things created by man will eventually wear or/and fail. To err is human, to really stuff up takes a computer.




Or their programmers.

How many glitches with Windows have there been over the years, and still are ?


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> How many glitches with Windows have there been over the years, and still are ?




There's a very good reason why "new" software is used with caution (or not at all) when it comes to things that really matter such as controlling industrial facilities and the like.

In some cases it's simply a matter of using something very generic (and that does include Windows) but deliberately being behind the times. Let them release it and sort out all the bugs which generally takes until the next version is released. Then look at the old one as something that's now extensively tested and a candidate for critical application use.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's a very good reason why "new" software is used with caution (or not at all) when it comes to things that really matter such as controlling industrial facilities and the like.
> 
> In some cases it's simply a matter of using something very generic (and that does include Windows) but deliberately being behind the times. Let them release it and sort out all the bugs which generally takes until the next version is released. Then look at the old one as something that's now extensively tested and a candidate for critical application use.




Yes, very wise.

I tried to use the same philosophy by keeping windows XP, but then then b.gg.rs pulled support for it.


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## noco (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, very wise.
> 
> I tried to use the same philosophy by keeping windows XP, but then then b.gg.rs pulled support for it.




i switched to 7 and then to 10 and back to Windows 7.....I did not like the 10 set up.


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I tried to use the same philosophy by keeping windows XP, but then then b.gg.rs pulled support for it.




XP is definitely still in use for some industrial etc applications since it's now old enough to be tested very thoroughly. As a bonus, in that situation there's zero need for support - install it and run it unchanged until something else eventually replaces it. No issue with viruses when you're not connected to anything external anyway.


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Or their programmers.
> 
> How many glitches with Windows have there been over the years, and still are ?




There's so Alt Shift Delete to restart once they glitched.

Auto-pilot could change a few industry, but not sure how much acceptance they'll get from the public.

Train, Trams could be control remotely for some time now... but the public still want a driver there. So don't think we'd want to see trucks or taxis zipping around our roads without a driver there either.

Freight train, mine sites... sure. On public roads, can't see it for another few generations. But then they have auto-reverse parking, reverse with camera on a sedan so maybe it's just me.


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## Craton (28 April 2016)

Have any of you city folks seen this in operation yet?


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## Smurf1976 (28 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Auto-pilot could change a few industry, but not sure how much acceptance they'll get from the public.
> 
> Train, Trams could be control remotely for some time now... but the public still want a driver there. So don't think we'd want to see trucks or taxis zipping around our roads without a driver there either.




We've been running major hydro power stations in Tas (elsewhere does it too) by remote control for decades. So we can and do start, run and stop major power stations with literally nobody there.

But once you put people on any sort of vehicle, well then things change and I agree that people like to know that there's a human there ready to take control even if they're not actually needed as such.

Some things are automated that many wouldn't realise. Many years ago techs at a radio station explained to me how they'd gone about automation. All the announcing was pre-recorded and it didn't take long to record the entire shift, the announcer just recorded one announcement after another without needing to wait for the music to play. That was all just files on a computer, as was the music (this was back in the days when the idea of playing music using a computer was still quite new) and same for the advertising. So it was all just a case of the computer playing the files one after another to do an overnight broadcast. The only technical complexity was the weather, but they had all possible temperature announcements pre-recorded and a simple thermometer linked into the system determined which one was played when weather updates were given, the announcing being such as to avoid mention of whether or not it was raining or windy and just give the temperature - that was deemed sufficient information to make the broadcast appear "live" for those listening and that was the intent.


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> We've been running major hydro power stations in Tas (elsewhere does it too) by remote control for decades. So we can and do start, run and stop major power stations with literally nobody there.
> 
> But once you put people on any sort of vehicle, well then things change and I agree that people like to know that there's a human there ready to take control even if they're not actually needed as such.
> 
> Some things are automated that many wouldn't realise. Many years ago techs at a radio station explained to me how they'd gone about automation. All the announcing was pre-recorded and it didn't take long to record the entire shift, the announcer just recorded one announcement after another without needing to wait for the music to play. That was all just files on a computer, as was the music (this was back in the days when the idea of playing music using a computer was still quite new) and same for the advertising. So it was all just a case of the computer playing the files one after another to do an overnight broadcast. The only technical complexity was the weather, but they had all possible temperature announcements pre-recorded and a simple thermometer linked into the system determined which one was played when weather updates were given, the announcing being such as to avoid mention of whether or not it was raining or windy and just give the temperature - that was deemed sufficient information to make the broadcast appear "live" for those listening and that was the intent.




You guys don't have, and not planning to have, any nuclear power station down there right? 

It, now, makes a lot of sense to operate a radio station like you said.  Learning something new everyday.

Man, with all these automation and the gutting of higher education and technical training, what the heck will the economy be like in the future? 

We better get on with educating the population before the mines and oil fields run out. Curently it's mining/resources and finance... definitely can't just add day trading to the mix.


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## luutzu (28 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Derek makes some awesome videos on you tube, where he takes a topic most people take for granted, and see's how the average person explains it, he then tries and teach the actual science behind it.
> 
> Here is his video on how the sun works.





That's too much gimmick for me. 

Here's a better one.


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## pixel (29 April 2016)

IMHO, Windoze is not Science; it is an operating system that fools consumers into believing they can match it with everybody, when in reality all they do is chat with their mates, watch movies, or share family photos.

A very small minority of High School kids may "get it" and think in terms of logical concepts, process classes, and interactions. They may go on and build systems like this:
*http://www.itnews.com.au/news/woods...dium=newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter*

or this: *http://guppy.mpe.nus.edu.sg/srg/*

That aside, Computer Science is only a small subset of the broad field of Science. What makes it special is the fact that its creations can be employed to answer questions in nearly every other field of scientific value, be it Biochemistry, Meteorology, or Engineering. And for every one of those Science disciplines, we have ASX-listed companies that apply themselves to solve problems and create saleable products. Examples include APY, BNR, DYE, NEU, PIQ, SOR and hundreds more.


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## Value Collector (29 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Er no sorry, that type of video is one of my pet hates. Too much hype and trying to get ignorant/stupid people to understand wastes too much time. I'm sure it could be done a lot more efficiently.




There is actually method to his madness, he did his PHD thesis one how to make films to teach physics.

What he learned is that when he made normal video simply explaining the facts, most veiwers that hold misconceptions on the topic zone out when questioned about the topic continue to hold the misconceptions.

In his thesis he showed his style of video, has the best chance of viewers picking up new information.


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## Value Collector (29 April 2016)

pixel said:


> , we have ASX-listed companies that apply themselves to solve problems and create saleable products.




Yep, a lot of good science happens in private(non government) companies.

This little Gem is not part of Berkshire Hathaway, but it started out in 1928 with one patent and one product and grew it's self to the point Warren Buffett bought it for Billions.


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## basilio (29 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> There is actually method to his madness, he did his PHD thesis one how to make films to teach physics.
> 
> What he learned is that when he made normal video simply explaining the facts, most veiwers that hold misconceptions on the topic zone out when questioned about the topic continue to hold the misconceptions.
> 
> In his thesis he showed his style of video, has the best chance of viewers picking up new information.





Very impressive.  Have to have a look at his videos .  I do like his style and his idea of how to present new information is a great teaching method.

Thanks


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2016)

pixel said:


> IMHO, Windoze is not Science; it is an operating system that fools consumers into believing they can match it with everybody, when in reality all they do is chat with their mates, watch movies, or share family photos.
> 
> A very small minority of High School kids may "get it" and think in terms of logical concepts, process classes, and interactions. They may go on and build systems like this:
> *http://www.itnews.com.au/news/woods...dium=newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter*
> ...




The point is that many of the new science inventions like driverless cars contain chips running computer code. 

I was asking how can we trust the software in these devices when giant corporations like Microsoft still write Operating Systems with errors, glitches or unforeseen side effects ?


----------



## Value Collector (29 April 2016)

basilio said:


> Very impressive.  Have to have a look at his videos . Thanks




Minute Physics also has some good videos.


----------



## Value Collector (29 April 2016)

basilio said:


> I do like his style and his idea of how to present new information is a great teaching method.
> 
> Thanks




This one is interesting, because all the people he interviews to find misconceptions are actually other scientists.


----------



## Value Collector (29 April 2016)

The last video was "How" trees can get tall.

This one is "why" they got tall, it is an explanation of stable vs unstable systems also.


----------



## pixel (29 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The point is that many of the new science inventions like driverless cars contain chips running computer code.
> 
> I was asking how can we trust the software in these devices when giant corporations like Microsoft still write Operating Systems with errors, glitches or unforeseen side effects ?




My answer would be: Windoze tries to be all things to all people on all hardware using all kinds of external devices. Just consider how difficult - nay: impossible - it is to bring a mere hundred people to maintain a civil discussion on a contentious topic. 

A driverless car doesn't run on windows. It uses a single-purpose chip with single-purpose software.
No, I'm not saying it's easy. But you can use a Windows-based program to make certain that every combination of inputs has been considered and leads to a defined outcome. Some of these outcomes may still result in damage, especially in cases of mechanical component failure, but you are dealing with a finite system that has a finite number of possible states. That makes it possible to ensure that every one of these states - no matter how large the number - results in a known outcome.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2016)

pixel said:


> My answer would be: Windoze tries to be all things to all people on all hardware using all kinds of external devices. Just consider how difficult - nay: impossible - it is to bring a mere hundred people to maintain a civil discussion on a contentious topic.
> 
> A driverless car doesn't run on windows. It uses a single-purpose chip with single-purpose software.
> No, I'm not saying it's easy. But you can use a Windows-based program to make certain that every combination of inputs has been considered and leads to a defined outcome. Some of these outcomes may still result in damage, especially in cases of mechanical component failure, but you are dealing with a finite system that has a finite number of possible states. That makes it possible to ensure that every one of these states - no matter how large the number - results in a known outcome.




Easy fix. Just put a self-destruct function like they do in all them sci-fi movies.

Interesting these discussion. And there I was thinking it'd just be getting the car to drive from A to B and not hit things in front of it.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2016)

pixel said:


> That makes it possible to ensure that every one of these states - no matter how large the number - results in a known outcome.




I'll take your word for it but I find it hard to believe that every possible combination of circumstances could be considered with current technology.

Maybe they could do it with quantum computing but that's a different kettle of fish and we can't yet reduce quantum computers to the size of a fingernail.


----------



## noco (29 April 2016)

Thought this link might be of interest.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/31454537/cactus-skin-aids-electric-car-efficiency/

*A cactus-inspired skin could hold the secret to creating a more efficient electric car.

That's the proposition from CSIRO and Korean scientists in a paper published in the scientific journal Nature on Thursday.

They've created a membrane that holds water like cactus, one they say has the potential to boost the performance of fuel cells in electric cars.

Currently electric cars must carry a power-sapping radiator, water reservoir and humidifier to ensure their fuel cells stay cool.

CSIRO researcher Cara Doherty says the membrane in the fuel cell works in a similar way to tiny pores in the skin of a cactus that close to conserve water in dry conditions and open at night to absorb moisture.

"The (membrane's) cracks widen when exposed to humidifying conditions, and close up when it is drier," she said.

"This means that fuel cells can remain hydrated without the need for bulky external humidifier equipment."

Professor Doherty says it makes the cells up to four times more efficient in hot and dry conditions.

The collaborative research could also be applied to existing technology including machines for water treatment and gas separation.*


----------



## noco (29 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> That's too much gimmick for me.
> 
> Here's a better one.





Here is more on the Sun.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/31465315/solar-flare-captured-by-nasa/#page1


*NASA captures solar flare in mesmerising 4k video

    Yahoo7
    Published 9 hrs, 5 mins ago

Share

The US space agency, NASA, has released a stunning video of a solar flare earlier this month, which was reportedly so powerful it caused radio blackouts around the world.

The mid-level M-class flare was caught in high definition and makes for some incredible viewing thanks to NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory.

The video shows a series of images taken every 12 seconds across 10 different colour spectrums, showing the full range of radiation the sun throws out. Source: NASA Solar Dynamics Observatory
*


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> You guys don't have, and not planning to have, any nuclear power station down there right?




No chance of that. Couldn't afford it for a start. 

But remote control of hydro stations is a pretty old idea now. It started out running things that were close by but by the 1960's there was enough confidence to design an entire new scheme with 7 stations all controlled from the one location (so there's nobody actually at the power stations to operate them). That was all hard wired stuff but by the 1970's there was enough confidence to do it with another new station via wireless communications from a long way away.  

There's a lot of fail-safe stuff in all of that. Even if control is lost as such, shutdown is fully automated if an alarm triggers (vibration, temperature and so on).



> It, now, makes a lot of sense to operate a radio station like you said.  Learning something new everyday.




I'm told by those in the industry that a lot comes down to economics. People like the idea that they're listening to a "live" broadcast but actually doing it live means that you've got an announcer sitting there the whole time and that comes at a cost. It varies by station but in general quite a few seem to have gone for actual live broadcasting during daytime when the number of potential listeners and thus advertising revenue is highest but do it all pre-recorded after hours when the economics of radio are are far less attractive in general.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 April 2016)

pixel said:


> A driverless car doesn't run on windows. It uses a single-purpose chip with single-purpose software. No, I'm not saying it's easy. But you can use a Windows-based program to make certain that every combination of inputs has been considered and leads to a defined outcome. Some of these outcomes may still result in damage, especially in cases of mechanical component failure, but you are dealing with a finite system that has a finite number of possible states. That makes it possible to ensure that every one of these states - no matter how large the number - results in a known outcome.




What concerns me about driverless cars is the ability to test for things that are highly unusual but which may occur. For example, a human knows that a plastic bag blowing in the wind poses no real threat to the car or occupants but that a plastic bag sitting on the road filled with something may well be a serious hazard. Both look the same, one isn't a threat but the other could be.

Or something totally random happens. A tree falls across the bonnet of the car whilst you're driving at highway speeds (that actually happened to me). The car hasn't run into anything, there's nothing in front of it, but all of a sudden you've got a tree across the bonnet and that's definitely a problem.

So it's random stuff like that that I see could be difficult to test for. How does a driverless car respond to an aircraft landing on the road in front of them? Or the simple threat that unconstrained farm animals are spotted standing right beside the road and there may well be one on the road around the next bend? And so on.

With something like a power station or even a railway there's a limited number of things that can go wrong so every possible combination can be tested. Bearings getting hot. Unexpected head loss. Vibration. Something on the train tracks ahead. Etc. But with a car on a road there's a huge number of possible scenarios as to what could happen.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2016)

How the mighty can fall.

Large Hadron Collider: Weasel shuts down world's largest particle accelerator


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-30/large-hadron-collider-shut-down-by-a-weasel/7372752


----------



## bellenuit (30 April 2016)

*Did Life Begin in what is now Western Australia?*

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpres...possible-life-on-earth-4-1-billion-years-ago/


----------



## Value Collector (30 April 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *Did Life Begin in what is now Western Australia?*
> 
> https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpres...possible-life-on-earth-4-1-billion-years-ago/




Do you have Netflix?

There is an awesome 4 part series called a time travellers guide to Australia ( or something like that), in the documentary section. Its pretty good, talks about the origin of life in western Australia, and traces our animal evolution through geologic time.

-------------------------------------------------

Talk about linking two threads together, you probably won't find that Doco on the US netflix Rumpy.

Here it is the ad for it, its on Netflix at the moment.


----------



## basilio (30 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> This one is interesting, because all the people he interviews to find misconceptions are actually other scientists.





What an amazing blast!!! Yeah I think I know something -  like hell.. Always good to realise how complex the world is and the contribution that good science makes to our understanding of it.

__________________________________

Also loved the discussion on sea level.  The effect of continents, local gravitational anomalies.  Thanks again.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> This one is interesting, because all the people he interviews to find misconceptions are actually other scientists.





You convinced me VC, I just subscribed to his channel.


----------



## basilio (30 April 2016)

noco said:


> Thought this link might be of interest.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/31454537/cactus-skin-aids-electric-car-efficiency/
> 
> ...




Nice work Noco.

Thanks


----------



## qldfrog (30 April 2016)

basilio said:


> Nice work Noco.
> 
> Thanks



Saw  that as well, thanks Noco, not often I can be in agreement with you.Have all a nice week end and let's try to keep that thread independent of the political sided views


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2016)

May sky guide: The Eta-Aquariid meteor shower, constellations and planets

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-02/may-sky-guide/7356040


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2016)

From running shoes to carbon sinks: four surprising uses for algae

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/futuretense/four-surprising-uses-for-algae/7370620


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> From running shoes to carbon sinks: four surprising uses for algae
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/futuretense/four-surprising-uses-for-algae/7370620




When ever I hear hype about algae, I always think back to this video, the algae discussion starts at 22.10 mark, its a good video that discusses the business and economics side of the fuel and chemical industry, and why a lot of the biofuel / biochemical stuff just doesn't work in the real world.

The whole video is a great lesson on the chemical industry.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2016)

Three planets discovered orbiting nearby cool small star 'best places to look for life'

Planets could be habitable.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...-orbiting-nearby-ultracool-dwarf-star/7376862


----------



## qldfrog (3 May 2016)

supraconductivity:
a step nearer?
https://www.inverse.com/article/11182-scientists-may-have-figured-out-how-to-harness-superconductors?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=int-eng&utm_campaign=promoted


----------



## SirRumpole (5 May 2016)

Budget 2016: Scientists live to fight another year


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...scientists-live-to-fight-another-year/7382722


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2016)

Inside a dooms day seed bank.

800 kms from the north pole, under the permafrost seeds from the worlds food crops are stored at minus 18 degrees, incase dooms day events or disease threaten a food crop species.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2016)

The real world will end very soon...


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-06/brisbane-man-set-to-open-world-first-hologram-centre/7386716
--


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2016)

Flying boats or flying dreams: Could futuristic seaplanes revolutionise air travel?

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ic-seaplanes-revolutionise-air-travel/7382834


----------



## SirRumpole (11 May 2016)

A vaccination for heart attack and stroke?

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ccination-for-heart-attack-and-stroke/7395712


----------



## cynic (11 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> A vaccination for heart attack and stroke?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ccination-for-heart-attack-and-stroke/7395712




Whilst this is indeed relevant to science, it might be better suited to the immunisation thread, especially given that controversial topics tend to quickly dominate the threads in which they are discussed.


----------



## pixel (11 May 2016)

cynic said:


> Whilst this is indeed relevant to science, it might be better suited to the immunisation thread, especially given that controversial topics tend to quickly dominate the threads in which they are discussed.




is it controversial?
They're looking for volunteers. Can't see it made compulsory. 
I'd happily volunteer, but unfortunately, I'm well above the age group they're looking for.

I'd much rather see the topic discussed here, with focus on the scientific aspects, rather than in a place inviting emotions and controversy. just my


----------



## cynic (11 May 2016)

pixel said:


> is it controversial?
> They're looking for volunteers. Can't see it made compulsory.
> I'd happily volunteer, but unfortunately, I'm well above the age group they're looking for.
> 
> I'd much rather see the topic discussed here, with focus on the scientific aspects, rather than in a place inviting emotions and controversy. just my




I agree that they're looking for volunteers now, but have genuine concerns about the possibility of future mandation.

I would be very interested to know how AUSPICE came up with the notion that cardiovascular events are vaccine preventable. Before looking into it, I  am of the suspicion that it is based upon some identified statistical correlations. I would ideally like to know what those correlations were and how their analyses led to the perception that such ailments are vaccine preventable.

Edit: just noticed that there is a full transcript on the linked article that partially answers my question.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2016)

Creatures of the deep: What NOAA's Okeanos Explorer found in the Mariana Trench


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-12/creatures-of-the-deep-sea-photographed-mariana-trench/7407326


----------



## Value Collector (16 May 2016)




----------



## Tisme (16 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


>





Don't forget Lard;  I always make my pie pastry from lard.

I'm no expert, but this from the internet so it must be true:




> Food Myth 4: Heart disease in America is caused by consumption of cholesterol and saturated fat found in animal products such butter, bacon, and lard, and tropical fats such as coconut oil and palm oils.
> Truth: No scientifically valid study has ever shown a link between saturated fat consumption and heart disease. A recent meta analysis concluded "that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of Coronary Heart Disease or Coronary Vascular Disease."
> 
> Throughout the years that heart disease was on the rise in America (1920-1960), the consumption of animal and tropical fats declined, while the consumption of highly inflammatory hydrogenated and refined vegetable oils increased dramatically. This correlates to the now widely accepted theory that unchecked and chronic inflammation is the underlying, unifying cause of heart disease, atherosclerosis, diabetes and a host of other health issues.
> ...




and:


http://empoweredsustenance.com/lard-is-healthy/


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2016)

I never realised honey was high in sugar. I'll probably have to cut down before I get too big to fit through the door.


----------



## luutzu (16 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


>





cool.

Now, are Capilano's Capilano-branded honey more, or just as, effective as Allowie's honey at this? 

Manuka's better you say?

Thought we'd make it a trifecta at picking on VC day.

My folks use and recommend garlic pickled in honey. Tastes barely tolerable, but you'd get used to it long before the high blood sugar would kill you.


----------



## cynic (16 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> cool.
> 
> Now, are Capilano's Capilano-branded honey more, or just as, effective as Allowie's honey at this?
> 
> ...




I recall trying a half strength concoction of something like that after a friend of mine visited a Chinese herbalist. Whilst there may well be therapeutic benefits in concoctions that are less than pleasant ,I  sure as hell did feel sick whilst drinking it!


----------



## basilio (16 May 2016)

Interesting see how close we are to cost effective solar thermal power plants.
These plants operate 24/7 and would have similar output to current coal fired  plants but without the coal or the pollution.



> *Tantalisingly close': is solar thermal energy ready to replace coal-fired power?*
> 
> Australian projects are viable already – now the industry needs investors willing to take a risk on large-scale renewable energy
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...rmal-energy-ready-to-replace-coal-fired-power
    D


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2016)

basilio said:


> Interesting see how close we are to cost effective solar thermal power plants.
> These plants operate 24/7 and would have similar output to current coal fired  plants but without the coal or the pollution.
> 
> 
> ...




That's the problem basilio, sending silly erroneous statements, to somehow baffle the gullible. 
The statement, these plants generate 24/7 is a ridiculous statement, they operate when there is solar generation and have limited storage.
If it is an overcast day, they do sod all.

You may be better served reading reality, rather than making it up as you go along. We all want renewable to work, it is just most of us have a realistic appreciation of the difficulties.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/wor...ge-plant-to-begin-generation-this-month-22860


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> That's the problem basilio, sending silly erroneous statements, to somehow baffle the gullible.
> The statement, these plants generate 24/7 is a ridiculous statement, they operate when there is solar generation and have limited storage.
> If it is an overcast day, they do sod all.
> 
> ...




Not quite true



> Molten salt storage
> The 150 MW Andasol solar power station is a commercial parabolic trough solar thermal power plant, located in Spain. The Andasol plant uses tanks of molten salt to store solar energy so that it can continue generating electricity even when the sun isn't shining.[56]
> 
> A variety of fluids have been tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, but Rockwell International[57] selected molten salt as best.[58] Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmospheric pressure, provides a low-cost medium to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with today's steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. Molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries to transport heat, so industry has experience with it.
> ...




Main problem with solar thermal I believe is keeping the reflectors clean. Needs a lot of staff and water.


----------



## cynic (16 May 2016)

Years ago I recall seeing the head of an electronics retail chain discussing a solar powered wristwatch which consisted of a small sundial attached to a wristband. A customer had sent in a letter asking how this watch may be used to tell the time during the night. The  customer was sent a pocket flashlight in reply.


----------



## basilio (16 May 2016)

Your problem SP is you don't actually read the articles.  Solar Thermal power stations do store energy in molten salt tanks for night time use. That's why they are seen as potential replacements for base load power stations

They do operate overseas. They may not yet be perfected. But they are not imaginary or ridiculous. Do your research.  The article  you quoted was excellent and realistic.  Did you read it ?


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2016)

basilio said:


> Your problem SP is you don't actually read the articles.  Solar Thermal power stations do store energy in molten salt tanks for night time use. That's why they are seen as potential replacements for base load power stations
> 
> They do operate overseas. They may not yet be perfected. But they are not imaginary or ridiculous. Do your research.  The article  you quoted was excellent and realistic.  Did you read it ?




I do know that, actually if you went back about three years, I was the one who posted up the Spanish sodium storage facility in the first place.

What I am saying is, as usual, the people with a mission put forward ridiculous statements about the current status of renewable energy.
They make outlandish statements and hold them up as banners, to support the ridiculous statement that fossil fuel is already obsolete.

At this point in time, it is a nonsense and people should stop, harping on about it, in an effort to support their argument.

With regard the article, no I didn't read it, still haven't, too busy with grand kids.

But I do know from experience, we are a long way from achieving base load generation, from solar.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2016)

I have now read the article, and as I said, the problem is when we have multiple days of poor sunlight.

We as humans at this stage have not got the ability, to control the weather, yet we require  electricity 24/7 rain, hail or shine.

It is a bit like the electric car, they are great, but how many kva do they require to charge them?

Maybe Smurph can explain how much electricity, you will draw overnight, charging your 90kw/hr battery. 
Also if your house in on a distribution system, that could handle the charge rate.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2016)

Maybe we are that bored, that we are re hashing old threads.
 I just re read the first few pages of "The future of energy generation and storage".

Seems to me we are just recycling.


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe we are that bored, that we are re hashing old threads.
> I just re read the first few pages of "The future of energy generation and storage".
> 
> Seems to me we are just recycling.





Well then let's amp it up and talk inquisitive science rather than boring partisan science:

eg 1

http://www.domain.com.au/news/googl...ink-widget&utm_campaign=c-all-alwayson_nonffx

eg 2

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...rth's-spin-axis-shifted-by-melting-ice-sheets


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2016)

First transplant of a stiff from a stiff

First US penis transplant recipient, 64-year-old Massachusetts man, recovering well

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-17/first-us-penis-transplant-performed-on-64-year-old-man/7419920


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2016)

HMAS Sydney: 3D reconstruction reveals more details of Australia's biggest naval disaster

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-16/hmas-sydney-wreck-3d-reconstruction/7408688


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2016)

Want to build a moon base? Easy. Just print it


https://theconversation.com/want-to-build-a-moon-base-easy-just-print-it-59070


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> Well then let's amp it up and talk inquisitive science rather than boring partisan science:
> 
> eg 1
> 
> ...




Cheers for those links Tisme, both very interesting.

I must say, they are a real breath of fresh air, into an otherwise stale debate.

The google solar application will be brilliant, if proven reliable, it will give terrific guidance on size of appropriate installation.

Also the World moving its axis, may well be a major contributor to the current global warming debate, but the blind believers will debunk it.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Want to build a moon base? Easy. Just print it
> 
> 
> https://theconversation.com/want-to-build-a-moon-base-easy-just-print-it-59070




Had a chance some weeks ago to look at the full moon with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon... 

Then there's our own Sun - the size of a literal pixel compare to the largest sun  we've managed to identified being a 20c coin. And I heard that our tech has only managed to "see" some 4% of the universe.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Had a chance some weeks ago to look at the full moon with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon...
> 
> Then there's our own Sun - the size of a literal pixel compare to the largest sun  we've managed to identified being a 20c coin. And I heard that our tech has only managed to "see" some 4% of the universe.




Mathematically, apparently intelligent life has probably existed in the universe, scary when you think about some of the people you know.

https://www.inverse.com/article/149...odds-intelligent-extraterrestrial-life-exists


----------



## pixel (18 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Had a chance some weeks ago *to look at the full moon *with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon...




Like this? Snapped from our backyard with a Kodak Z990:








(Not sure if they're uploaded in full size 4000x2256)


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I never realised honey was high in sugar. I'll probably have to cut down before I get too big to fit through the door.




Lol, what did you think it was made of?

I wouldn't worry about sugar, your brain won't function without it, as long as your total calories are in balance you will be fine.

You have a bunch of people trying to avoid carbs, and others trying to avoid fats, I reckon you shouldn't avoid either, just don't over eat (or drink) calories.

I find a squirt of honey on my weet bix is a great energy kick in the morning.



luutzu said:


> cool.
> 
> Now, are Capilano's Capilano-branded honey more, or just as, effective as Allowie's honey at this?
> 
> ...




You should definitely by the capilano active 10+ manuka rather than the  allowrie (that creates the healthiest profit margins)

As far as allowrie  vs regular capilano, probably just pick the one that suits your taste.


----------



## Joe Blow (18 May 2016)

I have asked that this thread please remain politics free. In accordance with that request I have removed a few posts that were political and intended solely to provoke others.

Let's keep this thread about science, and leave politics to the political threads.


----------



## noco (18 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Lol, what did you think it was made of?
> 
> I wouldn't worry about sugar, your brain won't function without it, as long as your total calories are in balance you will be fine.
> 
> ...




Here are some details of the difference between cane sugar and honey.

My first drink in the morning for the past 55 years has been apple cider vinegar and honey which is excellent for arthritis and helps to keep the kidneys and urinary track in good order...I have used honey as a replacement of white cane sugar which is poison in my books....They say arthritis is hereditary but we really only inherit our parents bad habits...My parents and siblings ( all now deceased) were all inflicted with arthritis but in my old age I am reality free.....All were high consumers of white cane sugar......I also recommend the use of ginger which is anti-inflammatory and a terrific aid for a healthy prostrate....I make my own ginger tea from raw ginger and have at least 2 cups every day.

Strange as we speak, my dear mother passed away today 31 years ago at the ripe old age of 88

I have also been helping a nurse in Guyana in her research for possible cures of pressure ulcers ( bed sores) in bed ridden old people......I suggested to her use Manuka honey which I believe is only available in Australia and New Zealand....Clean the wound with an antiseptic first and apply the Manuka...Ungvita ointment is another great cure for pressure ulcers. 

For better brain function we need at least 2000mg of Omega 3 per day.

http://foodwatch.com.au/blog/carbs-sugars-and-fibres/item/honey-is-it-healthier-than-sugar.html


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2016)

noco said:


> Here are some details of the difference between cane sugar and honey.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks For the link.

I think most that regularly consume honey feel the benefits, I sure hope those that worry about sugar don't avoid honey.

My father swears by a daily breakfast of mashed dates, Ginger and honey on toast.


----------



## noco (18 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Thanks For the link.
> 
> I think most that regularly consume honey feel the benefits, I sure hope those that worry about sugar don't avoid honey.
> 
> My father swears by a daily breakfast of mashed dates, Ginger and honey on toast.




Did you know a can of Coca Cola contains 13 cubes of white cane sugar?


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2016)

noco said:


> Did you know a can of Coca Cola contains 13 cubes of white cane sugar?




In Australia it does, in the USA it contains zero cane sugar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I drink about 1 or 2 cans of Coke a day, sometimes I put rum in it, everything in moderation I rekon, it's all about finding out what works for you, and your life style.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> In Australia it does, in the USA it contains zero cane sugar.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I drink about 1 or 2 cans of Coke a day, sometimes I put rum in it, everything in moderation I rekon, it's all about finding out what works for you, and your life style.




Do they have a sugar tax in the USA ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Do they have a sugar tax in the USA ?




I don't think so, My response was a bit tongue in cheek, they don't have "cane sugar" in the soft drinks, they use corn syrup. Because of the climate (and government assistance) its cheaper to produce corn syrup than cane sugar.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2016)

What are the different types of sugar? So how do these sugars affect your body, and should we be worried?


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> In Australia it does, in the USA it contains zero cane sugar.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I drink about 1 or 2 cans of Coke a day, sometimes I put rum in it, everything in moderation I rekon, it's all about finding out what works for you, and your life style.




I worked on an American base, their coke tasted like ours, but with added sugar, everything they eat seemed much sweeter.


----------



## luutzu (18 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Mathematically, apparently intelligent life has probably existed in the universe, scary when you think about some of the people you know.
> 
> https://www.inverse.com/article/149...odds-intelligent-extraterrestrial-life-exists




Didn't know thye have an equation for that. But yea, ET is definitely out there. And the day they "discover" us is as scary as the day Columbus discover America (Hawkin said it alright?)


----------



## luutzu (18 May 2016)

pixel said:


> Like this? Snapped from our backyard with a Kodak Z990:
> 
> View attachment 66718
> 
> ...




Nice pics. That's some camera to be able to take that.

But the telescope we got was much clearer - was a full moon and so bright it gave us white spots afterwards. Well worth it though. I never really appreciate the moon being so "real", if that makes sense.

btw, does the moon rotate pixel? I remember the crater due East on your pic was at the bottom (remember 'cause I call it the moon's a hole, haha)... or it's just another crater with the Sun reflecting differently... 

There's this 3D gear where we could download apps on any smart phone and explore Space or architectural landmarks. Incredible stuff.


----------



## luutzu (18 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> ...
> 
> 
> You should definitely by the capilano active 10+ manuka rather than the  allowrie (that creates the healthiest profit margins)
> ...




Was checking it out the other day and you guys got these crazy branding stuff going. "nutty" taste of honey because it's from some walnut tree? Serious? You guys are taking a playbook from Blackmores or what?

It's all honey to me. As long as no sugar syrup in it, and if it's on sale, it'll work fine.

Tastes good on cereal though. And my folks recommend the use of honey instead of sugar if we want our cool drinks sweet.


----------



## luutzu (18 May 2016)

noco said:


> Here are some details of the difference between cane sugar and honey.
> 
> My first drink in the morning for the past 55 years has been apple cider vinegar and honey which is excellent for arthritis and helps to keep the kidneys and urinary track in good order...I have used honey as a replacement of white cane sugar which is poison in my books....They say arthritis is hereditary but we really only inherit our parents bad habits...My parents and siblings ( all now deceased) were all inflicted with arthritis but in my old age I am reality free.....All were high consumers of white cane sugar......I also recommend the use of ginger which is anti-inflammatory and a terrific aid for a healthy prostrate....I make my own ginger tea from raw ginger and have at least 2 cups every day.
> 
> ...




Have you tried Yarrow?

One of those cure-all plant my dad recommends. He has it fresh with hot water couple times a day. Could eat it as salad too. 

There's this Japanese fungus/bateria drink that's highly effective. Kind of like those Yakult drink but here you can make it yourself... With black tea, cup of sugar and a few litre of water for about 8 days... it's sweet and gasy like Coke but apparently the sugar/sweet are digested by the bateria so it's no longer "bad" sweet.

But yea, coffee and a beer now and then might also be as effective.


----------



## pixel (18 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Nice pics. That's some camera to be able to take that.
> 
> But the telescope we got was much clearer - was a full moon and so bright it gave us white spots afterwards. Well worth it though. I never really appreciate the moon being so "real", if that makes sense.
> 
> ...




Hey Luutzu,
I selected a 1,600th of a second on 5.6 aperture, which probably accounts for a little graininess. The moon's position was also close to the horizon, just above neighbours' roof top, which adds atmospheric distortion.

As regards the moon's rotation, the axis is tangential, not radial. That's because the moon has a tidal lock on earth, alwais showing the same side towards Earth. That means one axial rotation takes exactly as long as the turn around the Earth. However, the location where you see the main crater - at about 2 o'clock on my photo - depends from where you view it on Earth. I take it you're looking from the Northern hemisphere.


----------



## cynic (18 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Was checking it out the other day and you guys got these crazy branding stuff going. "nutty" taste of honey because it's from some walnut tree? Serious? You guys are taking a playbook from Blackmores or what?
> 
> It's all honey to me. As long as no sugar syrup in it, and if it's on sale, it'll work fine.
> 
> Tastes good on cereal though. And my folks recommend the use of honey instead of sugar if we want our cool drinks sweet.




Try a bit of yellowbox on your cereal one day, and then a bit of leatherwood the next and note the difference in taste.


----------



## pixel (19 May 2016)

cynic said:


> Try a bit of yellowbox on your cereal one day, and then a bit of leatherwood the next and note the difference in taste.




or from WA: Peppermint Tree, Red Gum, and Jarrah
I use the Peppermint Tree honey to sweeten my cup of Green Tea in the morning;
Red Gum's antibacterial properties are close to Manuka's;
while Jarrah honey's properties exceed Manuka's by about half again, which accounts for the premium.

see https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66434&d=1461663637

Each has its own distinctive taste that is unmistakable.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Nice pics. That's some camera to be able to take that.
> 
> But the telescope we got was much clearer - was a full moon and so bright it gave us white spots afterwards. Well worth it though. I never really appreciate the moon being so "real", if that makes sense.
> 
> ...




Were you looking at the moon through a Newtonian telescope eg a reflector telescope. Because they flip the image, so what you are seeing it the reverse and upside down of the actual image. The moon always shows the same side.




luutzu said:


> Was checking it out the other day and you guys got these crazy branding stuff going. "nutty" taste of honey because it's from some walnut tree? Serious? You guys are taking a playbook from Blackmores or what?
> 
> It's all honey to me. As long as no sugar syrup in it, and if it's on sale, it'll work fine.
> 
> Tastes good on cereal though. And my folks recommend the use of honey instead of sugar if we want our cool drinks sweet.




A honeys taste is determined by the flowers the producer the nector, there are huge differences in the flavour of the honey that comes from different plants.

If you are eating the standard blended honey, you won't notice much difference, because these are blended to give a consistent taste, but if you try a few different specialty types eg yellow box, manuka, blue gum, iron bark, etc etc you will pick up differences.

You can also notice differences in colour.


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2016)

Having started beekeeping, our earlier harvest was VERY clear honey (clover) and very light subtle in taste; whereas the late season (brushbox) was very dark and quite strong;
hardly comparable, but both sweet indeed! 
Indeed, I encourage people to have a try and variety in taste  is always welcome in my opinion
Eat good honey!


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

This article is a bit disturbing for those of us that like honey.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/death-and-extinction-of-the-bees/5375684


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

You may be better off being overweight according to this study.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ated-with-lowest-mortality/7417938#transcript


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

pixel said:


> Hey Luutzu,
> I selected a 1,600th of a second on 5.6 aperture, which probably accounts for a little graininess. The moon's position was also close to the horizon, just above neighbours' roof top, which adds atmospheric distortion.
> 
> As regards the moon's rotation, the axis is tangential, not radial. That's because the moon has a tidal lock on earth, alwais showing the same side towards Earth. That means one axial rotation takes exactly as long as the turn around the Earth. However, the location where you see the main crater - at about 2 o'clock on my photo - depends from where you view it on Earth. I take it you're looking from the Northern hemisphere.




Have no idea about aperture and things  Just happy with an iPhone and its knock-off Instagram features. But will definitely look into a proper camera like yours in future though.

I didn't know any of that about the Moon. Only thought it might be fixed to Earth from that Transformers movie - the Dark of the Moon, hence there's a Dark Side of the moon... see, don't just learn how bad Michael Bay is at most movies 

But yea, was taking the telescope from home in Sydney. Maybe it was what VC said about the Newtonian telescope so the main crater was flipped and appear at the bottom for me, hence from Northern Hemisphere from sounds of it.

Man, amazing all the these natural wonders around us. I have to get out more.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

cynic said:


> Try a bit of yellowbox on your cereal one day, and then a bit of leatherwood the next and note the difference in taste.




Thanks Cynic.

Now that you guys mentioned, I guess there's a real difference. 

Guess I never notice it because I always take honey with something else, and often take it when have those cold and flu.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Having started beekeeping, our earlier harvest was VERY clear honey (clover) and very light subtle in taste; whereas the late season (brushbox) was very dark and quite strong;
> hardly comparable, but both sweet indeed!
> Indeed, I encourage people to have a try and variety in taste  is always welcome in my opinion
> Eat good honey!




You know those waxy honey combs? Are they edible?

Went through some country town a few years back in Aus and some honey jars sell honey with it.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> hence there's a Dark Side of the moon....




There is no dark side of the moon, the moon spins on its axis just like the earth (just a lot slower), so all sides experience day and night about once a month, its just that the same side always faces earth, so the best term to describe the "other" side of the moon would be the far side.

When the moon looks like a wafer thin crescent or is completely black, the far side is lit up in broad day light, and if viewed from the other side, would be "full"


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Were you looking at the moon through a Newtonian telescope eg a reflector telescope. Because they flip the image, so what you are seeing it the reverse and upside down of the actual image. The moon always shows the same side.




I guess it was Newtonian. don't know anything about these stuff... only read up a bit once I couldn't find the Moon with it 

It's one of those cheap ones, well... $220 or something isn't that cheap, but for a bit more there's those with proper balance and scoping. Where we live the Moon have to be high for us to see it and can't really lock on properly if it's too high... 

Strange how the stars look the same through it - I guess slightly bigger dot. But yea, can't wait til the kids are older and we go camping. Took them out for an hour that night, they saw a bit of the moon but got half dozen mosquito bites... good one Dad


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> You know those waxy honey combs? Are they edible?
> 
> .




Sure is.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> There is no dark side of the moon, the moon spins on its axis just like the earth (just a lot slower), so all sides experience day and night about once a month, its just that the same side always faces earth, so the best term to describe the "other" side of the moon would be the far side.
> 
> When the moon looks like a wafer thin crescent or is completely black, the far side is lit up in broad day light, and if viewed from the other side, would be "full"




ah see. I guess you can't learn and guess stuff from movies then 

YouTube here we come.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Sure is.





Sweet!

And there I was thinking I'd have to squeeze it out and get my hands dirty 

Will buy it next time, for sure.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> ah see. I guess you can't learn and guess stuff from movies then
> 
> YouTube here we come.




If you are interested, this article explains why the earth and moon are "tidally locked".

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/02/side-moon-always-faces-earth/


----------



## noco (19 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> You know those waxy honey combs? Are they edible?
> 
> Went through some country town a few years back in Aus and some honey jars sell honey with it.




Chewing the honey comb is good for hay fever suffers but to the best of my knowledge you do not swallow it.


----------



## pixel (19 May 2016)

noco said:


> Chewing the honey comb is good for hay fever suffers but to the best of my knowledge you do not swallow it.




AFIK swallowing some wax isn't dangerous, there just isn't any nutritional value in it. You can chew on it like you do on chewing gum, but unlike chewing gum, the spat-out wad can still be put to use, e.g. roll it flat and wrap it around a wick for a nice-smelling beeswax candle. 

When I asked whether eating beeswax was dangerous, Google showed me this answer:


> You can eat beeswax. Before extracting, much of the nation's honey was sold in comb form, and people either ate both honey and comb together, or 'chewed out' the honey and spit out the wax. I've done both.
> 
> Your body does not extract any nutrients, fiber, etc. from it (for it has none), and the wax will just pass through your system, but you can eat as much of it as you like without any harm.
> 
> The only caveat here, is that you want to know where the wax is from. Chemicals such as pesticides and bee medications can be absorbed by the wax. Chemicals have been found in foundation. If you use foundationless frames, the bees will produce beautiful, very thin wax (no thick mid-rib like foundation) that is fresh and perfect for eating or chewing



and another thread here: http://morenature.com/blogs/nature-news/36239748-honey-beeswax-health-benefits-for-good-skin-hair


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

Time to take antibiotic resistance seriously.

How much ab's are being pumped into chickens, beef and farmed fish ?

Do the politicians have the guts to take on vested farming interests here and overseas ?



> Ten million people could die by 2050 unless sweeping changes are agreed upon to tackle mankind's increasing resistance to antibiotics, which can turn common ailments into killers, a new report warns.
> 
> Commissioned by the British Government, the Review on Antimicrobial Resistance outlined steps to fight the emergence of "superbugs" as infections become immune to existing drugs, allowing minor injuries and common infections to become deadly.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

How much do you know about flu ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-19/flu-quiz-vaccinations-contagion-and-misconceptions/7425882


----------



## noco (19 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> How much do you know about flu ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-19/flu-quiz-vaccinations-contagion-and-misconceptions/7425882




Rumpy, I have some good news for you.

This a true and honest story about myself.

On September 22 1998, I was unfortunate to be stricken with  a growth the size of a can of coke attached to my heart and left lung.......It was removed, together with the 4 lymph glands,  in an open heart surgery and it found to be malignant...My surgeon advised me I had less than 4 years to live......I did  had radium treatment for 6 weeks but the radium scared the left lung down to a capacity of 10%.

Whist the radium may have saved my life, it did leave me with bronchioextesis  and very susceptible to severe chest infections some 3 times per year and bed ridden for a week at a time......I was prescribed anti-biotics which were kept on the refrigerator at all times and as soon I felt the infection coming on, it was a reach for the anti-biotics.......But we found each infection started to become immune to the anti-biotics and I would be prescribed a new one.

Some 3 years ago a friend told me about ground CASSIA CINNAMON...So I googled it and found all the benefits of it being anti infection....I commenced taking one level teaspoon on my rolled oats each and every morning.....Since then I have not had a cold, influenza, sore throat or a chest infection in those 3 years.

My lady Doctor asked me some 6 months ago why I have not asked for a prescript for anti-biotics....Of course I told her what I was taking daily...She shrugged her shoulders and said, well don't stop.

As you know we all have those flu injections every year and more often than not many people still get the flu and that is what was happening to me until 3 years ago....This year I tried to refuse the injection to be my own guinea pig to prove a point that flu injections are bloody useless but she insisted I have one and I did so just to pacify her.

I also take 2000mg of Omega 3 each morning.

I do hope this will be of some help to you and other ASF members.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2016)

noco said:


> Rumpy, I have some good news for you.
> 
> This a true and honest story about myself.
> 
> ...




That's very interesting noco. Sorry about your health problems, but I'm glad you got over them . 

I'll have a look for the cinnamon, the more we can reduce the use of antibiotics the better.

A friend of mine recently had to go to hospital for a relatively minor ailment, was out in 3 days but had picked up a gastro infection in hospital and had to go back. She's been in hospital for three weeks and can't walk at the moment.

That's how bad the superbugs are these days even in supposedly sterile areas.


----------



## noco (19 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That's very interesting noco. Sorry about your health problems, but I'm glad you got over them .
> 
> I'll have a look for the cinnamon, the more we can reduce the use of antibiotics the better.
> 
> ...




Yeah..I guess I can thank my lucky stars that I am still alive and as you probably have worked out over time that I am now in my late eighties....But I am a realist as we don't live forever....I am in my twilight years and now take one day at a time....Am still a keen lawn bowler, a game I took up some 30 years ago and play at least 6 games of chess every day with guys from all around the world...Most of them cannot speak English but we all talk the same chess lingo......It pays to keep the body and the mind active 7 days a week.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

noco said:


> Rumpy, I have some good news for you.
> 
> This a true and honest story about myself.
> 
> ...




Dam noco. You're messing up my impression of you... you got a heart?  jk. 

Don't know what to say... 

Look up Yarrow. I translated a few pages for my dad and it sounds like it does a lot of stuff. Then if you want to start a few patch of it I can post it up your way.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If you are interested, this article explains why the earth and moon are "tidally locked".
> 
> http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/02/side-moon-always-faces-earth/




There's just no good reason to remain ignorant of anything nowadays ha. 

thanks guys.


----------



## noco (20 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Dam noco. You're messing up my impression of you... you got a heart?  jk.
> 
> Don't know what to say...
> 
> Look up Yarrow. I translated a few pages for my dad and it sounds like it does a lot of stuff. Then if you want to start a few patch of it I can post it up your way.




luutzu, they say I have a heart of gold, gentle,caring and polite.......Have spent several years in Rotary giving up weekends to execute projects for the community.....spent some years in multi cultural work in my city and have been known to give the shirt off my back to someone in need.

The way some portray me on this site is nothing like I am in person......I was a pugilist in my younger day and still know how to fight a fair fight.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2016)

FFS noco 

THIS IS A SCIENCE THREAD

Take politics elsewhere


----------



## noco (20 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> FFS noco
> 
> THIS IS A SCIENCE THREAD
> 
> Take politics elsewhere




Yes..you are so correct..My apology.....I did overlook the title of the thread.

It was in answer to luutzu and the political side has now been deleted.


----------



## luutzu (20 May 2016)

noco said:


> luutzu, they say I have a heart of gold, gentle,caring and polite.......Have spent several years in Rotary giving up weekends to execute projects for the community.....spent some years in multi cultural work in my city and have been known to give the shirt off my back to someone in need.
> 
> The way some portray me on this site is nothing like I am in person......I was a pugilist in my younger day and still know how to fight a fair fight.




I have to look up "pugilist". 

Don't mind me or members on AFS noco. I think most like you anyway... don't agree with you on things, but they're not mean. Quite civil actually. what's wrong with internet forums nowadays?

Yea, I know a few people who were very kind and generous... they still are, just they became more jaded and develop a harder shell to crack. Mostly it's because they have seen their kindness being abuse and them being taken advantage off way too many times. 

That's why it's best to have no friends, and no expectations.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2016)

I think most people that say they had a flu injection but still got the flu, didn't really get the flu.

The "flu" is one of those terms that gets used for pretty much any sickness people get that has a runny nose of cough as a symptom.

Both my Mum and dad and my father in law have both told me they are angry because they got sick even though they had a flu injection, but I don't even think they had the influenza virus.


----------



## Tisme (20 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I think most people that say they had a flu injection but still got the flu, didn't really get the flu.
> 
> The "flu" is one of those terms that gets used for pretty much any sickness people get that has a runny nose of cough as a symptom.
> 
> Both my Mum and dad and my father in law have both told me they are angry because they got sick even though they had a flu injection, but I don't even think they had the influenza virus.




Yes everyone who gets a cold insists it is the flu. I had the flu once and it knocked me out, in bed for a week.

I had a flu shot Monday a few days back and this morning I woke up with the sweats and a head feeling like an allergy in play, stinging eyes, saltwater nose and generally s4it..... I must be getting a reaction to the choice of politicians.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I think most people that say they had a flu injection but still got the flu, didn't really get the flu.
> 
> The "flu" is one of those terms that gets used for pretty much any sickness people get that has a runny nose of cough as a symptom.
> 
> Both my Mum and dad and my father in law have both told me they are angry because they got sick even though they had a flu injection, but I don't even think they had the influenza virus.




Hard to tell the difference, since a normal cold and the flu have similar symptoms.

Also it's possible that they did pick up the "flu" or a cold at the doctors office when they got the shots, the flu shots take about a week to give protection.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hard to tell the difference, since a normal cold and the flu have similar symptoms.
> 
> Also it's possible that they did pick up the "flu" or a cold at the doctors office when they got the shots, the flu shots take about a week to give protection.




Yeah, except the real flu generally makes you feel like you are about to die, where as colds etc tend to be more towards the annoying side of the scale.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2016)

Amazing how cats get around.


Cat tracking program makes owners re-think pets' behaviour and how they manage their moggies


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...m-makes-owners-re-think-pet-behaviour/7431248


----------



## Tink (21 May 2016)

Since this is a Science thread, this belongs in here -

Orderly Universe, Orderly Site.

1. Science cannot answer the questions of ultimate reality
_
The creation of space and time at the origin of the universe is an event forever hidden in the deep unobservable past. We are likely to never know, with any objective certainty, what the source of this event was. The same is true of the origin of life, the rise of consciousness, and the basis of free will. While it is entirely normal that we would want conclusive answers to these great questions, what we are actually left with is simply existence as we find it. From that, we can pursue discoveries with passion, and hope to have the wisdom to understand what the universe is telling us.

Consequently, the constant implication (by many popularizers of science) that science has answered these questions (or is on the verge of answering these questions) is unethical and cavalier with regard to the evidence. The impetus for this cavalier conduct is highly questionable, particularly given the fact that the output of this conduct isn’t an advancement on a cure for cancer or cleaner air over our cities – which are the actual hopes and dreams of the public who pays for science – but is most often social, political, and even legal in nature.

As it turns out, the greatest consequence of these questions is how we as groups and individuals choose to treat each other. This fact only underscores the necessity that we understand the limits of our knowledge, and call upon ourselves to respect rationality and intellectual freedom among all people._

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=27938&page=70&p=895741&viewfull=1#post895741


----------



## noco (21 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hard to tell the difference, since a normal cold and the flu have similar symptoms.
> 
> Also it's possible that they did pick up the "flu" or a cold at the doctors office when they got the shots, the flu shots take about a week to give protection.




IMHO, I believe the flu is an extension of a cold to a chest infection......Both normally start off with a sore throat, the cold breaks and then can develop further to the chest. 

That level teaspoon of cinnamon every day is the answer and more reliable than flu injections.

For those who suffer a sore throat I recommend a mug full of grape fruit juice, 1/2 teaspoon of cayenne pepper and 1/2 bush honey......Gargle with the mixture every hour on the hour for 6 hours....do not swallow the mixture....Sore throat should be gone in 6 hours.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I think most people that say they had a flu injection but still got the flu, didn't really get the flu.




Common cold = runny nose, cough etc.

Flu = painful joints and lying flat on your back for a week.

Zero chance you're going to work, school or wherever if you've actually got flu. You'll be lying in bed the whole time or in my case I found lying on the floor was actually more comfortable. Gets boring after a few days of that.


----------



## noco (21 May 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Common cold = runny nose, cough etc.
> 
> Flu = painful joints and lying flat on your back for a week.
> 
> Zero chance you're going to work, school or wherever if you've actually got flu. You'll be lying in bed the whole time or in my case I found lying on the floor was actually more comfortable. Gets boring after a few days of that.




I have forgotten what all that is like now as it has been 3 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2016)

noco said:


> I have forgotten what all that is like now as it has been 3 years.




I haven't had flu, or even a cold for about 4 years. The only times I have got them is when I visited Melbourne or Sydney.

As I'm retired and live in a rural area I don't come into contact with a lot of people. That obviously helps avoid transmission.

Fingers crossed that I haven't jinxed myself.


----------



## noco (21 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't had flu, or even a cold for about 4 years. The only times I have got them is when I visited Melbourne or Sydney.
> 
> As I'm retired and live in a rural area I don't come into contact with a lot of people. That obviously helps avoid transmission.
> 
> Fingers crossed that I haven't jinxed myself.




What ever works...don't stop.

Ya gotta watch those city slingers.....They can be very dangerous.


----------



## pixel (21 May 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Common cold = runny nose, cough etc.
> 
> Flu = painful joints and lying flat on your back for a week.
> 
> Zero chance you're going to work, school or wherever if you've actually got flu. You'll be lying in bed the whole time or in my case I found lying on the floor was actually more comfortable. Gets boring after a few days of that.




That would be what women call "The Man-Flu".


----------



## macca (21 May 2016)

noco said:


> IMHO, I believe the flu is an extension of a cold to a chest infection......Both normally start off with a sore throat, the cold breaks and then can develop further to the chest.
> 
> That level teaspoon of cinnamon every day is the answer and more reliable than flu injections.
> 
> For those who suffer a sore throat I recommend a mug full of grape fruit juice, 1/2 teaspoon of cayenne pepper and 1/2 bush honey......Gargle with the mixture every hour on the hour for 6 hours....do not swallow the mixture....Sore throat should be gone in 6 hours.




Sounds OK but when travelling it is rather difficult, when I am out and about I take with me a small spritzer bottle with professionally made colloidal silver water in it.

Lots of contact with many different people can lead to all sorts of bugs being in the air, if my throat feels a bit rough I simply open my yap and spray inside it and down my throat a few times. A mouthful of water to wash it down and I have really noticed how rarely I get the tour bus bug.

I also found that my grandkids are very keen to share the latest bug doing the rounds at their school so after a visit I give myself a few squirts and I no longer get the latest gastro bug from my grandkids


----------



## Value Collector (22 May 2016)

Tink said:


> 1. Science cannot answer the questions of ultimate reality
> l]




Thats a big claim, how do you know that?

It's seems silly to make claims like that, I mean 100years ago you might have said "science can't put a man on the moon" but the fact is science can in fact put a man on the moon, so that claim was false, the fact that something hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean the thing can't be done.

Science has unlocked so much more knowledge about the the origins of human life and the universe than any religious text has, offcourse there is still things we don't know, but the answer to that is more science, not more fairy tales.


----------



## Value Collector (22 May 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Common cold = runny nose, cough etc.
> 
> Flu = painful joints and lying flat on your back for a week.
> 
> Zero chance you're going to work, school or wherever if you've actually got flu. You'll be lying in bed the whole time or in my case I found lying on the floor was actually more comfortable. Gets boring after a few days of that.




Yeah, and it's not "the flu" unless it's caused by the influenza virus, so even if you have those symptoms, it doesn't mean you should self diagnose it as the flu, and then claim the injection didn't work.

The flu shot protects you from the influenza virus, not all the other stuff.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2016)

You wouldn't think this would happen to young and fit people. I haven't heard of it happening before, but as Aussies were involved...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-22/australian-who-died-on-everest-is-identified/7435228


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2016)

Mars to appear at its biggest, brightest tonight as planet moves into opposition

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...e-biggest,-brightest-in-over-a-decade/7435276


----------



## luutzu (22 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Mars to appear at its biggest, brightest tonight as planet moves into opposition
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...e-biggest,-brightest-in-over-a-decade/7435276




Bright moon the other night and so I stepped outside. Looked up and see a new bright "star" that weren't there before so thought cool... will check it out soon... then can't be asked. It'll still be there next time right?


----------



## Craton (23 May 2016)

macca said:


> Sounds OK but when travelling it is rather difficult, when I am out and about I take with me a small spritzer bottle with professionally made *colloidal silver* water in it.
> 
> Lots of contact with many different people can lead to all sorts of bugs being in the air, if my throat feels a bit rough I simply open my yap and spray inside it and down my throat a few times. A mouthful of water to wash it down and I have really noticed how rarely I get the tour bus bug.
> 
> I also found that my grandkids are very keen to share the latest bug doing the rounds at their school so after a visit I give myself a few squirts and I no longer get the latest gastro bug from my grandkids




Yep, it works real well I reckon macca. Might be the only way to combat the so-called "super bugs" going forward.

When my then infant daughter was a burns victim (she fell hands first into the dying embers of an o/night camp fire), her burns were treated with a silver salve, Silvadene I think it was called, and I wondered back then of the healing properties of silver.

Interestingly, the term "blue blood" stems from the days of yore when the aristocracy ate and drank from silverware, too much silver in the body can turn the skin blue. I'm lead to believe they were less prone to sickness as well.

Smurfs? Why the skin turns blue.


> Enthusiasts of colloidal silver believe the metal's antibacterial properties will keep them from getting sick. There's no proof it works, but there is proof that taking too much can leave people permanently blue.
> 
> To find out how that happens, Hurt's team added silver to chemical mixtures to mimic the conditions in the human stomach and intestines, and also created a mock-up of human skin tissue.
> 
> ...




Toxicity: How much silver is too much?

Having used colloidal silver and will do so again if the need arises. E.g. When I was a dog owner, everytime I changed the dog's drinking water, I'd place a teaspoon or two into the dog's water containers to stop algae/mould forming. As soon as I stopped using the colloidal silver, algae/mould would start forming within a few weeks.

Using a small mouthful as a mouth wash, I've had great results.

As a side note re. colloidals, among other things colloidal *gold* can be used for tumor detection and gene therapy.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2016)

Craton said:


> Yep, it works real well I reckon macca. Might be the only way to combat the so-called "super bugs" going forward.
> 
> When my then infant daughter was a burns victim (she fell hands first into the dying embers of an o/night camp fire), her burns were treated with a silver salve, Silvadene I think it was called, and I wondered back then of the healing properties of silver.
> 
> ...




Silver also used on cooling towers when client can afford it


----------



## Value Collector (23 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Bright moon the other night and so I stepped outside. Looked up and see a new bright "star" that weren't there before so thought cool... will check it out soon... then can't be asked. It'll still be there next time right?




The brightest "Stars" are pretty much always planets, there are a few bright stars but the first to start appearing at sun down are normally planets. you should be able to see mars and Saturn above the moon tonight.

I love it when you can catch a satellite, normally you don't have to wait more than 15mins or so within 2 hours of the sun set and you will see what looks like a faint star gliding across the sky, if you catch the space station it is very bright.

-------

Actually the space station in visible from Sydney at 5.36 this afternoon. here is its schedule.


https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/sightings/view.cfm?country=Australia&region=New_South_Wales&city=Sydney#.V0KkNI9OLIU


and here is its current position. 

http://www.isstracker.com/


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> The brightest "Stars" are pretty much always planets, there are a few bright stars but the first to start appearing at sun down are normally planets. you should be able to see mars and Saturn above the moon tonight.
> 
> I love it when you can catch a satellite, normally you don't have to wait more than 15mins or so within 2 hours of the sun set and you will see what looks like a faint star gliding across the sky, if you catch the space station it is very bright.
> 
> ...




That's awesome. Thanks VC.

Never knew you could actually see satellites or the ISS. 

What telescope do you have there to see them? Just your normal one? Depends on the zoom/lens ey?


----------



## Value Collector (24 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> That's awesome. Thanks VC.
> 
> Never knew you could actually see satellites or the ISS.
> 
> What telescope do you have there to see them? Just your normal one? Depends on the zoom/lens ey?




You don't need a telescope to see the space station or other satilites, you can easily see them with the naked eye.

The space station will be brighter than all the stars, it will just look like a big star gliding across the sky, you can generally only see them within 2 hours of sun set though, because they have no lights on them, so you need to be close enough to sunset that it's getting dark, but the satilites a few hundred kilometres above are still lit up by the sun.

There is so many satellites up there, you should be able to spot one within 15mins once you know what to look for.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2016)

Anyone else heard of Tony Seba?  Short story is he is an energy disruption guru who believes that  within just 15 years conventional energy production and transport will have been rendered obsolete by the revolution taking place in batteries, solar power and electric cars.

Certainly worth considering in the context of how significant scientific progress can be in our future.  Also has huge implications for many current industries and investments.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/e...-as-we-know-it-tony-seba-20160519-goz5bm.html

http://tonyseba.com/portfolio-item/clean-disruption-of-energy-transportation/

________________________________________________________________

On a very similar track have a look at these comments from the CEO of AGL Energy


> *GL Energy's Andy Vesey sees batteries 'changing the world'
> *
> Date
> May 24, 2016 - 6:08PM
> ...




http://www.theage.com.au/business/e...eries-changing-the-world-20160523-gp26pi.html


----------



## basilio (24 May 2016)

For anyone interested in a more detailed analysis of why and how energy disruption will occur  in a very short time check out this presentation.

Very compelling.  One wouldn't want to be in a dead end industry..



Keynote - 100% electric transportation and 100% solar by 2030 - AltCars Expo


----------



## cynic (24 May 2016)

I've been hearing about the inventive genius of this guy for decades now, and would dearly love to see some of his discoveries explored more deeply.

Whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of the information contained in the following site, it's coverage of certain examples of Nikola's discoveries does appear to tie in with information I'd already encountered elsewhere.

http://altered-states.net/barry/tesla/


----------



## Tisme (25 May 2016)

cynic said:


> I've been hearing about the inventive genius of this guy for decades now, and would dearly love to see some of his discoveries explored more deeply.
> 
> Whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of the information contained in the following site, it's coverage of certain examples of Nikola's discoveries does appear to tie in with information I'd already encountered elsewhere.
> 
> http://altered-states.net/barry/tesla/





Anyone in the electrical engineering sphere knows all too well about Nicky.  Myths seem to have attached themselves to him e.g. Over unity generators, Zero point energy, Orgone energy.


----------



## Tisme (25 May 2016)

They reckon the part of the brain that rates the pain response has been identified. All these years I have teased my sisters that men have a lower threshold of pain because they are hunters and don't fall pregnant. At last recognition:


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> Anyone in the electrical engineering sphere knows all too well about Nicky.  Myths seem to have attached themselves to him e.g. Over unity generators, Zero point energy, Orgone energy.




The typical "mad professor", but a very influential one in the electricity business.

Wireless transfer of power was a great idea, but it would have been 'free energy' so no one would finance it.


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Wireless transfer of power was a great idea, but it would have been 'free energy' so no one would finance it.




not to mention incredibly wasteful, the amount of energy lost into the environment would be huge.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> not to mention incredibly wasteful, the amount of energy lost into the environment would be huge.




Yeah, but it's still a cool idea if the wastefullness could be reduced.


----------



## luutzu (25 May 2016)

basilio said:


> For anyone interested in a more detailed analysis of why and how energy disruption will occur  in a very short time check out this presentation.
> 
> Very compelling.  One wouldn't want to be in a dead end industry..
> 
> ...





Interesting.

The problem I have with his assumptions and conlcusions, and this is just top of my head out of thin air stuff... are:

1. He's ignoring the real life political, influence peddling, lobbying and other form of capitalist inventiveness to affect policies and adoption rate; and only look at the real economic benefits as though all consumers are given facts, as though all the oil barons and masters of the universe will stop aside and let the most innovative and most efficient entreprenuer win. 

If we assume market efficiency, capital and law are given to those with best solution... world will be at peace and most politicians will be out of a job; and greenies communists won't have such a hard time convincing people of the dangers of CC. 

2. Not sure if his cost curve was assumed independently of the reduction in new cars needed. 

If EV and self-driving cars meant 80% of new cars no longer needed - i.e. sell less cars - will the scale economics still be there to bring that costs down?

3. If self-driving capabilities are there and so widespread as to make 80% of road/freeways obsolete because humans are generally inefficient driver etc., why not adopt it to public transport system - say smaller buses, put it on a shuttle van/minibus;

The car as a service, yea that was good... maybe he meant for it to apply to all areas and not just the city/metro yuppies.

Solar is interesting. From experience I noticed that for around $3k and 16 panels, our entire house could live off the solar system and only need to pay something like $3 a quarter - that was over summer, so will cost a bit more in winter. So solar is really something. 

But then with the utilities and their buybacks, such efficient and clean ways to power our homes are made to appear "uneconomical". 

I heard that China is making a lot of headways into solar and other alternative sources. Mainly because pretty much all the current sources of fossil fuel are occupied (liberated?) and their energy security requires alternatives so the comrades are really backing it.

Compare that to the US and most Western countries - Canada and Australia being closely linked to the fossil economies... we're lagging in these clean innovation. Not from the lack of skills, just the lack of political will.


----------



## luutzu (25 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The typical "mad professor", but a very influential one in the electricity business.
> 
> Wireless transfer of power was a great idea, but it would have been 'free energy' so no one would finance it.




Induction charging is a form of wireless transfer... it's being used on the new trams for Sydney. So no overhead cables... and predestrian won't get electrocuted if they step on it either


----------



## Value Collector (25 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Induction charging is a form of wireless transfer...




What percentage of the power is lost into the environment, is it more efficient than an over head wire? or just more "sexy"

A lot of the examples I have seen lose a lot of energy, a bit like shining a spot light onto a solar powered device to run it, eg a lot of the energy misses the receiver and only a certain percentage of the energy that does hit the receiver is converted into electrical current.


----------



## luutzu (25 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> What percentage of the power is lost into the environment, is it more efficient than an over head wire? or just more "sexy"
> 
> A lot of the examples I have seen lose a lot of energy, a bit like shining a spot light onto a solar powered device to run it, eg a lot of the energy misses the receiver and only a certain percentage of the energy that does hit the receiver is converted into electrical current.




Don't know the % lost. I'd imagine it couldn't be much since the charging/receiving are right next to each other and only activates along with the tram. But I'm no electrical engineer - just your typical connect red to red kinda guy.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 May 2016)

Schrodinger's Bird brings quantum quirkiness alive in an animation and exhibition that draws on Schrodinger's cat, superposition, and "spooky action at a distance"


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-25/schrodingers-bird-the-art-of-mind-bending-physics/7426472


----------



## Tisme (26 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> not to mention incredibly wasteful, the amount of energy lost into the environment would be huge.




Path loss and space loss e.g.

https://www.pasternack.com/t-calculator-fspl.aspx


----------



## SirRumpole (28 May 2016)

If brainwaves can be transmitted and received, then telepathy is surely possible.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...ives-brain-signals-tested-st-vincents/7455874


----------



## Value Collector (28 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If brainwaves can be transmitted and received, then telepathy is surely possible.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-...ives-brain-signals-tested-st-vincents/7455874




If you implanted a transmitter and a receiver into our heads I guess, lol.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> If you implanted a transmitter and a receiver into our heads I guess, lol.




Someone will do it sometime.


----------



## explod (28 May 2016)

Value Collector said:


> If you implanted a transmitter and a receiver into our heads I guess, lol.




A very good text on this "The Intuitive Edge" shows clearly that we communicated via brain waves prior to language. 

Ever noticed a flock of a hundred small birds in flight change direction together instantly.  Yep all tuned into the lead bird.  Many clear scientific tests in this text.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 June 2016)

http://thescienceexplorer.com/techn...-characters-advanced-civilizations-video-game

Some of the oldest and most respectable religions on the planet were saying the same thing.  ie., we have no idea what reality is.  All we know about the world is what our mind presents us.  "The object is the perceiving of it"... and all that stuff.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 June 2016)

http://thescienceexplorer.com/brain...stincts-are-more-accurate-analytical-thinking

Rings true for me.


----------



## basilio (10 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> http://thescienceexplorer.com/brain...stincts-are-more-accurate-analytical-thinking
> 
> Rings true for me.




Interesting idea... but I don't believe that Elon Musk thinks our current world is only a one in a billion chance of being "real".

I'd take another thought experiment. Let's imagine that in a thousand other video worlds there is a cataclysm.  The world is wiped out.  How would such an event effect a person living it through a computer ?  A bit scary but when you  close the computer down you can step outside into the real world.

It is much like the especially vivid dreams which seem very lifelike .. unlike you properly wake up.

On the other hand if we blow our real world for keeps then the next time we wake up it will be in ... ? We certainly wont be re booting Game of Thrones et al. In my view  there is more tangible reality on earth than in a computer network.
.......................................
_
But I have to say the mathematical concepts of parallel universes is fascinating._


----------



## Tisme (10 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> http://thescienceexplorer.com/techn...-characters-advanced-civilizations-video-game
> 
> Some of the oldest and most respectable religions on the planet were saying the same thing.  ie., we have no idea what reality is.  All we know about the world is what our mind presents us.  "The object is the perceiving of it"... and all that stuff.




Can you elaborate on that a bit for us GB? Like who specifically is saying that on behalf of the skyfairy brigade?


----------



## basilio (10 June 2016)

*Metal Memory *

I was just introduced yesterday to the concept of metal objects that can be twisted into all sorts of shapes and then thrown into hot water and immediately returning to the shape they were before the distortions.

WOW!! Looks like magic (In fact this is the basis of a few magic tricks).  Quite fascinating and worth a diversion for an hour or so.




..................................................  .................................

It also looks as if new developments can make this product quite revolutionary

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a15773/shape-shifting-metal-alloy/


> *This Breakthrough Shape-Memory Metal Practically Never Wears Out*
> 
> A new shape memory material stays strong even after tens of millions of transformations. It may finally pave way for widespread usage of the futuristic materials.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2016)

*Australian mini-satellites undergo space testing before launch later this year*


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-...s-undergo-space-testing-before-launch/7509888


----------



## Gringotts Bank (14 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Can you elaborate on that a bit for us GB? Like who specifically is saying that on behalf of the skyfairy brigade?




Sorry, just saw this now.  A: The non-dualist religions (includes Gnosticism, Zen, Buddhism, Christian Mysticism, Taoism, New Age thought, Neo Platonism... etc etc).  In non-duality, there's no sky fairy.  *If* they ever use the word 'God', it has to be carefully interpreted, because they're not speaking about a man with a beard, a thing or even an experience.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism


----------



## Tisme (17 June 2016)

Scared of lightning and what it does to you?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Scared of lightning and what it does to you?





Interesting. Today's version of the plasma ball.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2016)

Can plant-based meat be better than the real thing?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-17/the-rise-and-rise-of-plant-based-food/7508752


----------



## pixel (19 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Can plant-based meat be better than the real thing?




Definitely NOT, if you ask me.
Humans evolved as Omnivores. Pretending otherwise is unnatural.


----------



## pixel (19 June 2016)

Drones: sometimes useful, sometimes not so welcome.
The fightback has begun...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/X27-2WDIZR0


----------



## noco (3 July 2016)

Does any mechanically minded people on this forum know or know how to find out the following :-

What is the advantage of using Octane 98 over 95 or 92 fuel in a car engine?

Does it offer improved fuel efficiency, higher performance  and less engine wear?


----------



## basilio (3 July 2016)

noco said:


> Does any mechanically minded people on this forum know or know how to find out the following :-
> 
> What is the advantage of using Octane 98 over 95 or 92 fuel in a car engine?
> 
> Does it offer improved fuel efficiency, higher performance  and less engine wear?




Google,  read,  evaluate ??


----------



## noco (3 July 2016)

basilio said:


> Google,  read,  evaluate ??




Thanks bas.. I will give it a go.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 July 2016)

The more octane, the more energy, so the less feul required if the car is tuned to tske advantage.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 July 2016)

HD 131399Ab: Scientists discover strange planet with three suns


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-08/scientists-discover-strange-planet-with-three-suns/7579512


----------



## AlterEgo (8 July 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> The more octane, the more energy, so the less feul required if the car is tuned to tske advantage.




Higher octane does *not* mean more energy. They all have the same energy content in the fuel. Higher octane rating just means more resistant to detonation, or pinging. High performance engines that are built for and tuned to the higher octane fuel can make more power due to using more ignition advance, increased compression ratio, or higher boost pressure. If your car is not tuned to take advantage of it, you won't make any more power. You only need a high enough octane rating so you don't get any pinging. Any higher octane rating than that won't make any difference.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 July 2016)

AlterEgo said:


> Higher octane does *not* mean more energy. They all have the same energy content in the fuel. Higher octane rating just means more resistant to detonation, or pinging. High performance engines that are built for and tuned to the higher octane fuel can make more power due to using more ignition advance, increased compression ratio, or higher boost pressure. If your car is not tuned to take advantage of it, you won't make any more power. You only need a high enough octane rating so you don't get any pinging. Any higher octane rating than that won't make any difference.




I fell for the myth.
http://www.motoring.com.au/myth-busting-high-octane-fuel-will-make-a-car-faster-7513/


----------



## basilio (3 August 2016)

How many people here follow Professor Brian Cox ? Exceptional scientist and communicator.  Just watched his latest series on The Forces of Nature.  
Fascinating ideas and the trips to various parts of the globe and different cultures  to explore the ideas is brilliant. Well worth the time.

[video]http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/forces-of-nature-with-brian-cox/ZW0469A001S00[/video]


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2016)

basilio said:


> How many people here follow Professor Brian Cox ? Exceptional scientist and communicator.  Just watched his latest series on The Forces of Nature.
> Fascinating ideas and the trips to various parts of the globe and different cultures  to explore the ideas is brilliant. Well worth the time.
> 
> [video]http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/forces-of-nature-with-brian-cox/ZW0469A001S00[/video]




He's an excellent communicator in all strands of science. The best I've seen.


----------



## pixel (7 August 2016)

Brought across from the off-topic discussion in another thread:
*
The Mystery Of Dark Energy*

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/727305283889/the-mystery-of-dark-energy

It's an update on recent theories on Cosmology. I heartily recommend watching it while it's still available at "SBS on Demand".


----------



## cynic (7 August 2016)

pixel said:


> Brought across from the off-topic discussion in another thread:
> *
> The Mystery Of Dark Energy*
> 
> ...




I am not able to view that particular documentary without setting up an account and downloading a specific app.

Are you able to give a summation of the case presented for the dark energy hypothesis?

If it's similar to the basis for belief in dark matter, then it most certainly contains at least one critical flaw.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2016)

Tassie devils evolving resistance to facial tumour disease.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-31/tasmanian-devils-developing-cancer-resistance/7798338


----------



## bellenuit (2 September 2016)

You learn something new every day. Interesting video on the square root of 2 and how it relates to the A series of paper sizes (A4 etc.)


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2016)

Some good news in the fight against super bugs.


Melbourne scientists make breakthrough in fight against antibiotic-resistant superbugs


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-...end-to-antibiotic-resistant-superbugs/7837352


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2016)

> Capilano Honey is pleased to confirm the launch of the world’s first clinically-tested prebiotic honey, Beeotic.
> Consuming prebiotic rich foods can help the good bacteria in your gut grow, improving the good-to-bad bacteria ratio and therefore helping improve your digestive health.
> Hitting shelves from 19 September, Beeotic is the result of extensive research and a world-first clinical study conducted through the University of New South Wales (UNSW) to identify the widely recognised, but until now unproven, prebiotic health potential of select Australian honeys.  The focus of the clinical study was to scientifically validate the specifications of a prebiotic honey to deliver consumers certainty around its potential health and wellness benefits.
> The clinical study found that at a dose of 14mL, approximately one tablespoon per day, certain honeys significantly raised the levels of good bacteria and suppressed potentially harmful bacteria in the digestive tract.  Furthermore, levels of good bacteria decreased once the participants stopped taking the honey for a period of time.
> ...


----------



## Gringotts Bank (27 September 2016)

Probably good for the CZZ share price (very nice packaging), but honey is just straight sugar so... you know, you can get those prebiotics in low-sugar yoghurts if you like that sort of thing?


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> you know, you can get those prebiotics in low-sugar yoghurts if you like that sort of thing?




I think you are talking about *pro*biotics. eg the actual bacteria

A *pre*biotic is what allows the probiotics to grow and multiply, it sets up the favourable conditions in the gut for the good bacteria, sugar is not just sugar and honeys aren't just honey, different types of honey have different benefits.

probiotic - a microorganism introduced into the body for its beneficial qualities

Prebiotic - a non-digestible food ingredient that promotes the growth of beneficial microorganisms in the intestines.



> There are various types of sugar derived from different sources. Simple sugars are called monosaccharides and include glucose (also known as dextrose), fructose, and galactose. The table or granulated sugar most customarily used as food is sucrose, a disaccharide.




different honeys contain different molecules of sugar, and other elements are different between honeys also, flavour, colours etc are different, but not just that, the are lots of other differences, that make honey from different sources active in other ways.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 December 2016)

OCD cure in under 20 minutes - one symptom, anyway.  Very cool.  Howie had/has an extreme, chronic case, apparently.  I've just been reading up about him online.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2016)

Zoomable Google Earth timelapse of Earth over the last 30 years.


https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/
--


----------



## SirRumpole (1 January 2017)

*Diet key to feeding the world in 2050 without further deforestation, modelling suggests*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...ut-destroying-forests/7339644?section=science


----------



## bellenuit (16 January 2017)

*IBM’s Watson gives proper diagnosis for Japanese leukemia patient after doctors were stumped for months*

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ibm-watson-proper-diagnosis-doctors-stumped-article-1.2741857

My comment....

What I find fascinating, even scary, about trends in AI is that it will soon reach a point where machines understanding of things (medicine, science whatever) will start increasing at not just an exponential rate, but an explosive rate. 

Let's take this scenario. We have two scientists that are renowned in two different areas of science. Perhaps chemistry and evolutionary biology. Both are experts in their own fields, but likely only have the knowledge of an intelligent layperson in the field of the other. Although projects can bring people from different disciplines together to work on common problems, it may be that one person who has expertise in diverse disciplines is able to gain an insight into problems that a group of people with the same overall body of knowledge cannot (perhaps due to personal rivalries, communication skills etc.). If our two renowned scientists were tasked with acquiring the same expertise in the other scientist's discipline as they have in their own, it would probably not be possible, particularly if achieving that skill level required a lifetime of study and practice. 

Now we have two robots that each have been fed the knowledge of those two disciplines (one each) as Watson has on medicine. I am looking a few years into the future with this scenario. The robots may have equivalent skills in their area of expertise as the respective renowned scientists had. But for one of the robots to acquire the expertise of the other may simply be a trivial communications task of perhaps downloading a few gigabytes of code.  And that doesn't just apply to two disciplines. It could apply to all bodies of knowledge, the only constraints being memory capacity and processing capability which are increasing exponentially annually (Moore's Law where it still holds).

And where you may have only a dozen or so scientists that have similar knowledge levels of our two scientists in their areas of discipline, you could create thousands of robots with the multi-discipline advanced knowledge.

I would think that this capability is probably less than 10 years away and its potential for good and bad is likely beyond our comprehension, but hopefully not beyond our control, which would be very scary indeed.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2017)

bellenuit said:


> I would think that this capability is probably less than 10 years away and its potential for good and bad is likely beyond our comprehension, but hopefully not beyond our control, which would be very scary indeed.




As long as we have control over the power switch.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2017)

Good to see a scientist as AOTY instead of a sportsman.



*Australian of the Year awards: Biomolecular scientist Alan Mackay-Sim receives 2017 honour*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-25/australian-of-the-year-2017-winners-alan-mackay-sim/8212694

--


----------



## basilio (2 February 2017)

Very interesting article in The Guardian on a computer program that analyses the data in scientific papers and then flags errors,  or possibly deliberate fraud.  Well worth a read.
The long read
* The hi-tech war on science fraud *
The problem of fake data may go far deeper than scientists admit. Now a team of researchers has a controversial plan to root out the perpetrators

by Stephen Buranyi


Wednesday 1 February 2017 17.00 AEDT

748 Shares
 342 Comments 

One morning last summer, a German psychologist named Mathias Kauff woke up to find that he had been reprimanded by a robot. In an email, a computer program named Statcheck informed him that a 2013 paper he had published on multiculturalism and prejudice appeared to contain a number of incorrect calculations – which the program had catalogued and then posted on the internet for anyone to see. The problems turned out to be minor – just a few rounding errors – but the experience left Kauff feeling rattled. “At first I was a bit frightened,” he said. “I felt a bit exposed.”

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/01/high-tech-war-on-science


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## SirRumpole (8 February 2017)

How good are you at high school science ? I only got 6/10. No cheating now !
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/back-to-school-science-quiz/8236324
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/back-to-school-science-quiz/8236324


----------



## boofhead (8 February 2017)

9 out of 10 - El Nino got me.


----------



## skyQuake (8 February 2017)

I love these multiple choice questions where an algo does its best to trick you but actually gives you the answer...

Q:What do the letters DNA stand for?

If we look at the frequecy of word fragments in the multiple choice:

oxy (2)
ribo (2)
nucleic (3)
acid (2)

too ez!

6/10 - Cool I passed yr10


----------



## pixel (8 February 2017)

8/10 - muffed greenhouse effect and El Nino
I feel embarrassed


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## luutzu (8 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How good are you at high school science ? I only got 6/10. No cheating now !
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/back-to-school-science-quiz/8236324




Got five wrong in a row. 

So I stop because I'd rather not know how I'd fail the rest


----------



## cynic (8 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How good are you at high school science ? I only got 6/10. No cheating now !
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/back-to-school-science-quiz/8236324



7/10 for me. It was more akin to a general science knowledge test and my memory of ph scales and a couple of other things failed me.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

cynic said:


> 7/10 for me. It was more akin to a general science knowledge test and my memory of ph scales and a couple of other things failed me.




One being the climate change question?

haha


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> One being the climate change question?
> 
> haha




8/10


----------



## cynic (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> One being the climate change question?
> 
> haha



I wouldn't feel too bad if that had been the case, but surprisingly it was the ph, dna computer, and virus question/s that got me.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

cynic said:


> I wouldn't feel too bad if that had been the case, but surprisingly it was the ph, dna computer, and virus question/s that got me.




Well played.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Our own Space Agency ? Sounds good to me.



*Why it's time for Australia to launch its own NASA*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-13/na
sa-australia-should-launch-its-own-space-agency/8264408

Then again, we can't even design a reliable energy grid, so what hope have we got ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 March 2017)

I expect technology for spiritual growth will become big business in decades ahead.  In the way of products, there's already a lot to choose from, but without much in the way of end-user uptake it's hard to judge effectiveness.  Down the track when VR, fMRI and advanced AI team up, I think we will be able to trigger massive shifts in consciousness at the flick of a switch - the technological equivalent of a massive psychedelic trip, but tailored to the individual and safe to navigate.

Being able to rapidly alter one's conscious state will be a sought after skill in the future because it's strongly correlated with the ability to heal illness and disease.  Yes, I have evidence...


----------



## basilio (4 April 2017)

Great to see Professor Brian Cox in Australia.  Great scientist and very accessible.  Has something to say about politicians too.

* Professor Brian Cox on elections: don't vote for politicians who say they have all the answers *


*Marcus Strom*

For physicist Brian Cox, working out how to vote is a simple question of applying a scientific method.

"Look across the political landscape of any country, identify the people with blustering certitude and don't vote for them," he said.
Professor Cox, anointed by David Attenborough as his broadcasting successor, believes the humility required in good science could teach our politicians a few lessons.

"Science is not a collection of absolute truths," he said. "Scientists are delighted when we are wrong because it means we have learnt something."
"I think that the scientific way of thinking is the road to better politics. The value of science is in embracing doubt."






	

		
			
		

		
	
 Professor Brian Cox (left) rehearsing with Julia Zemiro for ABC's Stargazing Live at Siding Spring observatory near Coonabarabran. Photo: ABC

*The British particle physicist said "politicians need to approach the public not by saying 'this is absolutely right' but by saying this is the best thing to do based on what we currently know.*

"Politicians need to embrace doubt as much as scientists do."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/tec...hey-have-all-the-answers-20170403-gvc6hu.html


----------



## Tisme (4 April 2017)

basilio said:


> Great to see Professor Brian Cox in Australia.




Did you notice the promo with canvas like background, the gum tree branches stuck in a vertical log held in place by stones and the campfire spaying live cinders into the virtual bush?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (2 May 2017)

So interesting.  High quality research finds that gluten sensitivity in non-coeliacs is *due to belief in same*.  I've often thought this about food allergies in general, even the life threatening nut and seafood allergies.  Belief is powerful.

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/gluten_sensitivity_may_not_exist.html


----------



## Tink (3 May 2017)

imv, we need more voices here in Australia.

Where is the science?



----------------------------------
_
Chaos in Australian Education
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/chaos-in-australian-education.25851/page-6_


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2017)

Tink said:


> imv, we need more voices here in Australia.
> 
> Where is the science?
> 
> ...





Are you trying stymie my equal opportunity for a high paying ABC job by suggesting my gonads are in some way a determinant of maleness. Shame on you Tink, sure I might be butch but I'm still a sensitive female with lotsa facial hair and a penis as it turns out.


----------



## pixel (3 May 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> even the life threatening nut and seafood allergies. Belief is powerful.



So, how do you talk a one- or two-year old child out of the "belief" that the peanut he just ate is great and he should just breathe normally? Or when your precious little Princess breaks out in hives after eating a strawberry?

I do agree though that a lot of "warnings" in the nutrition area is influenced either by marketing of some specific product - from supplements to special (and extra-expensive) food lines, or exaggeration and generalisation of rare sensitivities - many of which may well originate in the minds of hypochondriacs.

Marketing snake oil to a herd of insecure sheeple is a Billion-Dollar industry.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (3 May 2017)

pixel said:


> So, how do you talk a one- or two-year old child out of the "belief" that the peanut he just ate is great and he should just breathe normally? Or when your precious little Princess breaks out in hives after eating a strawberry?




Don't get me wrong, food allergies can be fatal and you don't want to mess around when there's an emergency.

But in terms of how all this food allergy thing came to be (when previously it hardly existed), there seems to be a heavy learned element.  Kids mirror their parents like nobody's business.  If the parent is anxious, the child picks up on it in an instant.  If you pair 'anxious parent' with 'strawberry' (like Pavlov's dogs), then the child will learn to reject it very quickly.  If food is used as a way to settle an upset child, then the effect will be doubled.  If the child is particularly sensitive, the reaction can be extreme, like anaphylaxis.

'Belief' wasn't quite the right word.  'Expectation through association' would be better.  Expectation generated through the association of paired stimuli.  The child doesn't need to have developed cognitive processes for it to happen.

Researchers probably won't ever investigate this the way they should, because of ethics concerns.  But the link posted gives an insight as to how these things develop.


----------



## Tink (5 May 2017)

You are entitled to your view, Tisme.

imv, not even animals stoop to this level of delusion.
Pumping up children with drugs, surgery etc.
A litter of pups brings three boys and one girl.

There are two sets of bathrooms -

Ladies and Gentlemen
Men and Women
Boys and Girls.

This is my view.
---------------------------------------

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/feminism.29219/page-11_


----------



## Tisme (5 May 2017)

Tink said:


> You are entitled to your view, Tisme.
> 
> imv, not even animals stoop to this level of delusion.
> Pumping up children with drugs, surgery etc.
> ...




I think that is a very sensible view.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 May 2017)

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(14)01213-5?_returnURL=http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0960982214012135?showall=true

Can draw all sorts of conclusions from this.  In general it's more complimentary of left wingers.


----------



## basilio (21 May 2017)

*Scientists Discover The Oldest, Largest Body Of Water In Existence–In Space*
*Around a black hole 12 billion light years away, there’s an almost unimaginable vapor cloud of water–enough to supply an entire planet’s worth of water for every person on earth, 20,000 times over. *

*By Charles Fishman3 minute Read*

Scientists have found the biggest and oldest reservoir of water ever–so large and so old, it’s almost impossible to describe.

The water is out in space, a place we used to think of as desolate and desert dry, but it’s turning out to be pretty lush.

Researchers found a lake of water so large that it could provide each person on Earth an entire planet’s worth of water–20,000 times over. Yes, so much water out there in space that it could supply each one of us all the water on Earth–Niagara Falls, the Pacific Ocean, the polar ice caps, the puddle in the bottom of the canoe you forgot to flip over–20,000 times over.

https://www.fastcompany.com/1769468/scientists-discover-oldest-largest-body-water-existence-space

*
*


----------



## basilio (23 May 2017)

*This is really cool...*

I was sent this link to a  presentation by Nate Hagens. I thought it was one of the most holistic analysis of where we are, where we are going and why humans find it exceptionally difficult to recognise problems and tackle them effectively (unless they are almost literally under our noses).
Be very interested to hear other responses.

A bit about Nate.

_Nathan John Hagens is a former Wall Street analyst, turned college professor and systems-science advocate. Nate has an MBA with Honors from the University of Chicago and a PhD in Natural Resources/Energy from the University of Vermont. He is on the Boards of Post Carbon Institute, Institute for Integrated Economic Research, and Institute for the Study of Energy and our Future. He teaches a class at the University of Minnesota called "Reality 101 - A Survey of the Human Predicament”. 

Nate, partnering with environmental strategist DJ White, has created the “Bottleneck Foundation”, a nonprofit initiative designed to help steer towards better human and ecological futures than would otherwise be attained. The “Bottlenecks” are the cultural, biological, and technological challenges which will arise as energy and terrestrial biomass begin their long fall back toward sustainable-flow baselines this century. The “Foundation” part of the name is a tip of the hat to Asimov’s “Foundation” series of novels, about an organization designed to mitigate the negative effects of societal simplification. BF is dedicated to making “synthesis science” accessible to a new generation of engaged people, through educational materials and projects which demonstrate that reality is a lot different than our culture currently thinks it is.



_


----------



## basilio (31 May 2017)

*Have you ever wondered *how Physicists are able to measure how much thrust an ICBM produces? After all they have to design and build it to successfully go into orbit - and get it right.
It seems that a key factor in this process is creating an enormous* EXACT *series of weights that can be used to discover have much force is being created in a situation.

Enter the the worlds heaviest weight. 1million pounds broken down to 20 x 50,000lb units accurate to .0005%. 
Gets really fascinating when they talk about adjusting the pile for the difference in gravitational force at the  site and the effect of displacement of air which in fact makes the pile more buoyant - and adjustments have to be made accordingly.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (31 May 2017)

Interesting. 
It's all in the mind.  Just like trading.  The moment anxiety creeps in, you're done.  Profits evaporate!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...h-risk-wrongly-diagnosing-food-allergies.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/latest-edition/5643520/Hot-air-behind-allergies
http://www.aol.co.uk/living/2011/09/14/are-food-allergies-all-in-the-mind/


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2017)

What we have learned so far from the Mars Curiosity Rover.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-05/mars-curiosity-rover-five-year-anniversary/8750588


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2017)

*The pros and cons of artificial intelligence.*


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-07/explainer-what-is-artificial-intelligence/8771632


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Did a human or a robot create these art works ? 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-12/quiz-was-this-art-made-by-a-human-or-a-robot/8790232


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2017)

Just add AI.  

https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/02/megabots-eagle-prime-robot-duel/


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Did a human or a robot create these art works ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-12/quiz-was-this-art-made-by-a-human-or-a-robot/8790232




I scored 4/6 correct.

What happens when we have a droid that looks so human-like we don't know the difference?  I think Musk and others are correct to be issuing warnings about AI.  But there's no stopping it.  Oh no.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2017)

Not good.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> But there's no stopping it. Oh no.




There is no stopping it but it has to be managed or it will cause the economic system to collapse.

If a large proportion of the workplace is put out of work, who will be able to afford to buy the goods and services produced by the bots ?

Governments will have to tax the machines and give the money to the consumers.


----------



## Tisme (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no stopping it but it has to be managed or it will cause the economic system to collapse.
> 
> If a large proportion of the workplace is put out of work, who will be able to afford to buy the goods and services produced by the bots ?
> 
> Governments will have to tax the machines and give the money to the consumers.




If you saw what I saw yesterday the next phase of automation/robotics is upon us. And Aussie developed too.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> If you saw what I saw yesterday the next phase of automation/robotics is upon us. And Aussie developed too.




So what was it ? An automated Christopher Pyne ?


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no stopping it but it has to be managed or it will cause the economic system to collapse.




Generally for most of history as automation takes jobs in certain industries, more new industries pop up and people can earn money.



> If a large proportion of the workplace is put out of work, who will be able to afford to buy the goods and services produced by the bots ?




Firstly, unemployed people will get a base level welfare.

But you are missing the point here, business and the economy has never been about "Money",

money is just

1, a unit of account,

2, a medium of exchange

3, short term store of value

The point of business is not to "make money", its to produce goods and services which can be traded with other produces of goods and services for the things we need and want.

Employees are currently part of the supply chain, so they get a cut of the production.



> Governments will have to tax the machines and give the money to the consumers.




The machines will have owners, the production of the machines belongs to the owners of the machines, the owners will be taxed on their production just as they are now.

The owners of the capital will have an ability to either pay a larger share of their production in tax because they won't have as many employees to share it with creating more tax dollars or they can reduce prices, putting products and services into the economy much cheaper, hence lowering the cost of living.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But you are missing the point here, business and the economy has never been about "Money",




It depends on the way you look at things. Why do you invest ? To make money or just for the thrills ?


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Why do you invest ? To make money or just for the thrills ?




Both, But "Money" is only useful because it can be traded for a product or service.

It's the products and services produced in an economy that are the real source of value.

I mean if you couldn't spend the money you earn whats the point of it? you wouldn't want money, you would look to exchange your products directly with other producers, because its their products you really want.

Every one in business only wants money because it is the medium of exchange that we use to get products and services from other producers, or we can use it to buy means of production (invest) so that we can get more products and services accruing to us later,

Money is just a credit note.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Money is just a credit note.




Of course, but that doesn't detract from my point that the economy depends on the circulation of money.

For every good or service produced there has to be someone willing and able to buy it, otherwise the good or service goes unused and the provider of that service loses money and may go out of business.

Unless we go to a totally socialist economy, money going around keeps the economy going.


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course, but that doesn't detract from my point that the economy depends on the circulation of money.




No, it depends on the circulation of goods and services, it's just at this current time, Money is what we use for the medium of exchange and the unit of account. Currencies can come and go.

By the way I am not saying we are going to get rid of money, just that the key to a strong economy is a strong system of goods and services production.



> For every good or service produced there has to be someone willing and able to buy it,




Off course, thats how it has always been. When you own a system that produces a lot of a certain product or service, you trade the excess with other produces to get a range of different products you need and want, we call this buying and selling and currently use money as the medium of exchange.





> otherwise the good or service goes unused and the provider of that service loses money and may go out of business.




This happens all the time in business. 

*But if a group of investors owned a really efficient Egg laying operation, all managed by robots, do you really think he would have trouble selling their *eggs?

I mean the people that owned the Bread factories, butter factories, baked bean factories, the bacon producers, the providers of transport, warehousing, clothing, airline seats, cars, haircuts, massages, surfing lessons, tea, coffee, and a million other products and services in demand from the egg producers.

*All the other industries listed above all would want the egg producers eggs, and the egg producers will trade their eggs (via the market, using cash) to secure the products and services they need.
*
they don't need employees, they just need other producers producing products and services that can be traded.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> If you saw what I saw yesterday the next phase of automation/robotics is upon us. And Aussie developed too.




Go on then.  What did you see?
Or is this a teaser and we have to guess what sort of awesomeness you're involved with?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> they don't need employees, they just need other producers producing products and services that can be traded.





You are saying that a small group of factory owners using only machines with no employees can keep businesses going amongst themselves without selling to a mass market and where unemployment is around 100% ? 

Please give examples of where this has happened.


----------



## Tisme (12 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what was it ? An automated Christopher Pyne ?




Poor old Chris will be lucky to survive the preselection scrap heap next election.

I'm not sure I can divulge what it is, but I'll ask the gyrogearlooses if there is any commercial inconfidence problems next week


----------



## basilio (12 August 2017)

If you want to see what a future with widespread automation looks like check out "Humans" .  Outstanding series that hypothesis the development of highly effective robots that look and and act human.

The crunch comes when they gain consciousness..

*Humans (TV series)*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Humans
AMC official website* www.amc.com/shows/humans
_*Humans*_ (stylised as *HUM∀NS*) is a science fiction television series that debuted on 14 June 2015 on Channel 4 and AMC. Written by the British team Sam Vincent and Jonathan Brackley, based on the award-winning Swedish science fiction drama _Real Humans_, the series explores the themes of artificial intelligence and robotics, focusing on the social, cultural, and psychological impact of the invention of anthropomorphic robots called "synths". The series is produced jointly by AMC in the United States, and Channel 4 and Kudos in Britain.

Eight episodes were produced for the first series, which concluded on 2 August 2015. The second eight-episode series premiered in the UK on 30 October 2016 and concluded on 18 December 2016. A third series was commissioned in March 2017 and is set to premiere in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humans_(TV_series)


----------



## Value Collector (13 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are saying that a small group of factory owners using only machines with no employees can keep businesses going amongst themselves without selling to a mass market and where unemployment is around 100% ?
> 
> Please give examples of where this has happened.



I never said a small group, it would be of the same scale we have now.

I mean there would still be a mass market, because there would still be taxation funded welfare, and there would never truly be 100% unemployment.

and when society realized that the main way to increase you earnings above the welfare level was to own part of the system rather than work for the system, more people would become investors.

People would start asking children "what type of companies do you want to own when you grow up" rather than "what type of job do you want"


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I mean there would still be a mass market, because there would still be taxation funded welfare, and there would never truly be 100% unemployment.




It would have to be businesses paying most of the taxes to support the welfare system.



Value Collector said:


> and when society realized that the main way to increase you earnings above the welfare level was to own part of the system rather than work for the system, more people would become investors.




How can people on welfare afford to become investors if they spend most of their welfare on the cost of living ?


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I never said a small group, it would be of the same scale we have now.
> 
> I mean there would still be a mass market, because there would still be taxation funded welfare, and there would never truly be 100% unemployment.
> 
> ...





I don't think that will happen. Equity Mercantile societies will inevitably devolve to the few in charge, with govt intervention redistributing wealth in the absence of personal ownership.

What should logically occur is that manufactured products will become/relegated to, a primary commodity that is mined from production houses for use in new secondary industries which were once the tertiary industry. The new tertiary industries will be the driver of production and extraction.

The question is what that tertiary industry will be and will it be one of those epoch leaps that only the few innovators have knowledge of at the moment.


----------



## Value Collector (13 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It would have to be businesses paying most of the taxes to support the welfare system.
> 
> 
> 
> How can people on welfare afford to become investors if they spend most of their welfare on the cost of living ?




The taxes are already funded by business, all tax revenues come from the out put of businesses, either directly as company tax, or as a tax on the income paid to employees. 

In the future where there is mass automation an little need for human labour, "welfare" won't be stigmatized, everyone will get a payment of enough to live on.

If you want to increase your base income you could invest in the system via owning equity or debt.

Also, you could seek employment in areas where people want human interaction  e.g. Producing art, entertainment (think of the kids making 1000's on YouTube), giving lessons on surfing, music, coaching etc


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The taxes are already funded by business, all tax revenues come from the out put of businesses, either directly as company tax, or as a tax on the income paid to employees.
> 
> In the future where there is mass automation an little need for human labour, "welfare" won't be stigmatized, everyone will get a payment of enough to live on.
> 
> ...




It would be good if it turned out that way, I hope it does. 

Capitalism will have to take a hit, as your scheme sounds more like socialism. Not that I think that there is anything wrong with that as long as everyone is looked after.


----------



## Value Collector (14 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be good if it turned out that way, I hope it does.
> 
> Capitalism will have to take a hit, as your scheme sounds more like socialism. Not that I think that there is anything wrong with that as long as everyone is looked after.




I think the best societies are the ones that are a mix of capitalist and socialist ideals.

E.g. I want society to encourage and reward people that Invest their money back into the economy, or work hard, or come up with new ideas and inventions, or take long shot risks that come good.

But I also want to look after those that get the short straw, by being born with a disability, or bad parents, or just bad luck.

but yeah, I think automation will bring great benefits to society in the next 100 years just like it has in the last 100 years. 

And we should all be looking to own part of it.

If the rich are getting richer, it's only because the poor are focusing on working for the system rather than owning the system.

Everyone should be raising their kids to invest.


----------



## Tisme (14 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I think the best societies are the ones that are a mix of capitalist and socialist ideals.
> 
> E.g. I want society to encourage and reward people that Invest their money back into the economy, or work hard, or come up with new ideas and inventions, or take long shot risks that come good.
> 
> ...




Your general arguments in post are very much socialistic. You can deny it, but you appear hard left, quite happy to accept ubiquitous social blending, govt control and ordered society.

I don't blame you for being confused what constitutes left and right, with many so called Liberals here suffering the same condition, even accusing me of being a leftie when they are the ones who behave like like old skool socialists. (hint read ALP policies from first 75% of 20th century)

Age will afford you clarity from the exuberance of argumentative youth and the fallacious social campaigning that goes with it.

BTW Oz people have always invested e.g. banks, property, pensions


----------



## Value Collector (14 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Your general arguments in post are very much socialistic. You can deny it, but you appear hard left, quite happy to accept ubiquitous social blending, govt control and ordered society.
> 
> I don't blame you for being confused what constitutes left and right, with many so called Liberals here suffering the same condition, even accusing me of being a leftie when they are the ones who behave like like old skool socialists. (hint read ALP policies from first 75% of 20th century)
> 
> ...




I am simply not a hardline left or right person, I am probably in the sensible position of being somewhere in the middle,  on social issues I am quite liberal, and on fiscal issues normally more conservative, however I can see that eventually there will be mass unemployment, so the hard line conservatives will have to give up their position eventually.

Age had brought me closer to the left, if you had seen me in my 20's, you would have seen a much more conservative staunch supporter of the right, but as I have gotten older I can see the silliness of those that lean to far to the right on social issues


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> E.g. I want society to encourage and reward people that Invest their money back into the economy,




People work hard and also invest their money into the economy by buying the goods and services that business produces. 

Without consumers there is no economy.


----------



## Value Collector (14 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> People work hard and also invest their money into the economy by buying the goods and services that business produces.
> 
> Without consumers there is no economy.




If two people work equally hard, in the same jobs but person A spends 100% of their money on consumption each week, where as person B only spends 90% and invests 10% back into business.

Don't you think over time the guy that invested 10% of his labour earnings deserves to have that saved capital produce an extra return for him?

I think after 10years of doing that he deserves to be earning more each year than the person who only contributed labour, and consumed all they produced.


----------



## qldfrog (14 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The taxes are already funded by business, all tax revenues come from the out put of businesses, either directly as company tax, or as a tax on the income paid to employees.
> 
> In the future where there is mass automation an little need for human labour, "welfare" won't be stigmatized, everyone will get a payment of enough to live on.
> 
> ...



Very nice, and hope you are right, the point you forget is 5 to 6 billion people starving in their homeland, even more brainwashed than we are who see people smelling roses and getting money for nothing on the other side of the border/sea ;automation will affect them too, and no safety net there


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Don't you think over time the guy that invested 10% of his labour earnings deserves to have that saved capital produce an extra return for him?




Of course, that is how the system works , if you have spare cash invest it and get a return, it's obviously a matter of how much spare cash you have.

If you want people to invest more in business then maybe something should be done about housing affordability where most of people's spare cash goes into paying back housing loans and not investing capital.


----------



## Value Collector (14 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Very nice, and hope you are right, the point you forget is 5 to 6 billion people starving in their homeland, even more brainwashed than we are who see people smelling roses and getting money for nothing on the other side of the border/sea ;automation will affect them too, and no safety net there




The answer to that is more investment, continue growing the economy globally.

There is no reason (apart from political reasons), why the continent of Africa could not be super productive.


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2017)

http://www.healthyfoodteam.com/nasa-confirms-earth-will-experience-15-days-darkness-november-2017/



> There have been many reports about the changes our planet Earth could endure in the months and years to come but many of them didn’t really pan out, making us question everything we read on the internet. But this time, NASA confirms what’s been circling the web recently – our planet Earth will experience total darkness for 15 days in November 2017 starting from November 15 to November 29.


----------



## pixel (22 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.healthyfoodteam.com/nasa-confirms-earth-will-experience-15-days-darkness-november-2017/



do we really have to put up with this kind of rubbish?
In case you didn't notice: *This is the SCIENCE threa*d, not Flat Earthers Bugle.


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2017)

pixel said:


> do we really have to put up with this kind of rubbish?
> In case you didn't notice: *This is the SCIENCE threa*d, not Flat Earthers Bugle.






So you're saying it won't happen!


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

The earth turned dark the day Trump was elected.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> So you're saying it won't happen!



yes, it it complete crap.

1, adding hydrogen wouldn't cause an explosion the sun is made of hydrogen

2, even you did add hydrogen, it would be so little compared to the mass of the sun, nothing would happen.


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> yes, it it complete crap.
> 
> 1, adding hydrogen wouldn't cause an explosion the sun is made of hydrogen
> 
> 2, even you did add hydrogen, it would be so little compared to the mass of the sun, nothing would happen.




It was intended to be a light hearted post. LOL. I recognised it as a rehashed spoof of many years ago and marvelled at its persistence.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> yes, it it complete crap.
> 
> 1, adding hydrogen wouldn't cause an explosion the sun is made of hydrogen
> 
> 2, even you did add hydrogen, it would be so little compared to the mass of the sun, nothing would happen.




Plus the fact of Venus and Jupiter getting "close" !!!


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2017)




----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2017)

This relates to a topic discussed in another thread.

It shows that splitting a brain, can result in two separate personalities being present inside one body. which brings up a whole host of questions for those people that believe  their personality is not the result of the brain, but instead part of their "soul", e.g. does splitting the brain cause the soul to be split? does it make a new soul appear? or is there no such thing as a soul, and what we call the soul is just the brain?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (22 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> does it make a new soul appear? or is there no such thing as a soul, and what we call the soul is just the brain?




In many traditions, the soul is the same as the Akashic record. After death, the record attracts a new body in accord with unmet desires in this life.  Who knows?  Anything's possible.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> In many traditions, the soul is the same as the Akashic record. After death, the record attracts a new body in accord with unmet desires in this life. .




But is there any evidence that suggests that is true, and not just a fictional story?



> Anything's possible




How do you know any thing is possible? to me it seems logical that many things might be impossible, and "anything is possible" is a claim that would require evidence.

It seems impossible that a mind can exist independent of a physical brain.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It seems impossible that a mind can exist independent of a physical brain.




You can buy a copy of Windows 10 separately from a PC, but one is useless without the other.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You can buy a copy of Windows 10 separately from a PC, but one is useless without the other.




I don't think thats the best analogy.

The analogy of the brain being hardware is fine, but the mind isn't the software, its the end result of the "software" and "hardware" so to speak.

e.g. end result of the program running on your computer is not the software itself, its a property of the software.

But either way, hardware and software are still physical things, and as I said a mind there is no evidence of a mind existing outside of a physical brain, its all based on the physical.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But either way, hardware and software are still physical things,




Software is not physical, it's a set of instructions. It can be held or transferred in a variety of ways, but it is actually a product of a mind, so maybe our software is a product of a mind unknown to us.


----------



## cynic (22 August 2017)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study/
I think this might have some relevance to the latest discussion.

The only thing that surprises me is that science has taken so terribly long to just begin to acknowledge, the existence of such phenomena, despite same having been anecdotally reported by mankind throughout the centuries.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study/
> I think this might have some relevance to the latest discussion.
> 
> The only thing that surprises me is that science has taken so terribly long to just begin to acknowledge, the existence of such phenomena, despite same having been anecdotally reported by mankind throughout the centuries.




Interesting.

It's pretty hard to explain an experience of someone describing what actually happened while they were unconscious, other than to accept mind/body separation.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Shocking research on brain performance.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-...c-shock-to-make-it-perform/8822400?technology

--


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting.
> 
> It's pretty hard to explain an experience of someone describing what actually happened while they were unconscious, other than to accept mind/body separation.



It certainly presents a challenge to some of the popular conceptions(or dare I say it - misconceptions!) about the relationship (or absence thereof) between consciousness and the physical brain.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Software is not physical, it's a set of instructions. It can be held or transferred in a variety of ways, but it is actually a product of a mind, so maybe our software is a product of a mind unknown to us.




Software is physical, the "set of instructions" exists in a physical form, yes it can be copied, from a physical medium to another physical medium, but it always is physical, whether its on a physical cd or physical hard drive , and it most exist on a physical medium, and it requires a physical medium to run.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting.
> 
> It's pretty hard to explain an experience of someone describing what actually happened while they were unconscious, other than to accept mind/body separation.




What about those who can exist in 'witness mode' whilst unconscious?  Such people exist, apparently.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting.
> 
> It's pretty hard to explain an experience of someone describing what actually happened while they were unconscious, other than to accept mind/body separation.





SirRumpole said:


> Interesting.
> 
> It's pretty hard to explain an experience of someone describing what actually happened while they were unconscious, other than to accept mind/body separation.




I don't find such stories impressive at all, I mean it seems normal to me that a brain in distress during the process of dying, might experience all sorts of things some real some imagined.

I have dreams all the time that include sounds that I can hear in my sleep.

for example I have dreamed that I was sitting in the lounge room listening to my alarm clock go off, before final waking up in bed and turning my alarm clock off, there is no reason to believe I was actually in the lounge room in some non physical way any more than any other dream I have had, e.g just because I dream about playing with Jennifer Lawrence does mean I actually did, its just my imagination running wild during dream state.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't find such stories impressive at all,




Because they don't support your pre existing beliefs.

If people can give an accurate explanation of what goes on around them while they are unconscious then I think we should accept that there is more going on than just a physical brain.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If people can give an accurate explanation of what goes on around them while they are unconscious then I think we should accept that there is more going on than just a physical brain.




Why would you jump to that conclusion, first you would have to rule out a host of other possibilities.

1, Did the person actually have zero brain function? or are we just assuming they had no brain function?

 I doubt they had the person on a brain scanner, so we can't say for sure. But it is possible that a person that is unconscious can still hear conversations and other sounds that give them certain information, enough information to form a some what accurate lucid dream.

2, It can be same with talking to psychics, people tend to count all the information the psychic says that they can relate to, but forget all the things that don't add up.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why would you jump to that conclusion, first you would have to rule out a host of other possibilities.
> 
> 1, Did the person actually have zero brain function? or are we just assuming they had no brain function?
> 
> ...




We can't even remember what goes on around us when we are asleep, let alone with almost no brain function.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We can't even remember what goes on around us when we are asleep, let alone with almost no brain function.




At certain stages of sleep people can be aware of things going on around them, as I said I often have dreams where sounds from the real world filter in and become part of my dreams, I have had everything from the alarm clock, the neighbours lawn mower, dog barking, ambulance sirens and even the chatter of visitors all became parts of my dreams.

But, also who says the type of unconsciousness a dying brain is experiencing is the same as a sleeping brain, What if as the brain is dying it goes into some last ditched survival mode and fights to get information and form it into some sort of understanding of whats going on around it.

there are loads of possible explanations, the fact the person wakes up from a "near death experience" shows they weren't actually dead, and their brain could of been doing all sorts of things.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> At certain stages of sleep people can be aware of things going on around them, as I said I often have dreams sounds from the real world filter in and become part of my dreams, I have had everything from the alarm clock, the neighbours lawn mower, dog barking, ambulance sirens and even the chatter of visitors all became parts of my dreams.




So has anyone validated that these dreams represented reality after you woke up ?

If not , they are just dreams.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So has anyone validated that these dreams represented reality after you woke up ?
> 
> If not , they are just dreams.




Yes, and I have also validated them myself, e.g. woken up and found my grandmother in the kitchen talking to family, or woken up and heard the lawn mower / alarm clock etc still going on, even though I dreamed for a few minutes a lucid dream that included these sounds.

But, I think what you have to understand is that the brain can often collect and process information unconsciously with out you realising it, for example there are Blind people that experience "Blind Sight", eyes are healthy, but their brains cannot show them images, but certain tests show that their brain still processes the information collected without them being aware of it, and they can know things without "seeing them"

It doesn't seem impossible to me that an unconscious persons brain might still be collecting information if their eyes and ears are still open, and some of that information can be recalled later of becomes part of a dream.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, and I have also validated them myself, e.g. woken up and found my grandmother in the kitchen talking to family, or woken up and heard the lawn mower / alarm clock etc still going on, even though I dreamed for a few minutes a lucid dream that included these sounds.




I think it's quite possible that you weren't fully asleep and you were simply listening to what was happening and interpreted that as a dream.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why would you jump to that conclusion, first you would have to rule out a host of other possibilities.
> 
> 1, Did the person actually have zero brain function? or are we just assuming they had no brain function?
> 
> ...




I may have made an error in posting the link to that article here, as due to the controversy surrounding this topic, further discussion may be better suited to the metaphysical/science/scepticism/thread.

With any potentially groundbreaking claim, a healthy degree of scepticism is certainly warranted, as is consideration of the full spectrum of possibilities when attempting to draw conclusions.

My understanding is that the possibility of continued brain function was ruled out due to the patients having been in cardiac arrest during that time. 

(One might rightly question this presumption, particularly in light of more recent scientific findings.)

My further understanding, is that the study was able to verify that at least one of the patients had valid (i.e. not imagined) recollections of actual events which occurred throughout the period of his cardiac arrest.

The conclusion, to the abstract, indicates that further large scale investigation into the phenomena is warranted by the study findings.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300957200003282


----------



## Tisme (23 August 2017)

My wife haunted the house for about 3 months after passing and on her birthday for about three years. The cat would wale and pupils dilate. The electrics with whistle and bells would go off.

I'm looking forward to being a nuisance ghost


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's quite possible that you weren't fully asleep and you were simply listening to what was happening and interpreted that as a dream.




No, as I said these were dreams that included clearly imagined elements, and the external sounds were part of the dream.

Also it works that other way, I have spoke to both my wife and my sister while they were "sleep talking", and both have reported that while I was talking to them they were dreaming about some situation and my conversation entered their dream.

People also sleep walk, 

and also hallucinate when very tired, which is another form of reality blending with the dream world during various stages of conciseness.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, and I have also validated them myself, e.g. woken up and found my grandmother in the kitchen talking to family, or woken up and heard the lawn mower / alarm clock etc still going on, even though I dreamed for a few minutes a lucid dream that included these sounds.
> 
> But, I think what you have to understand is that the brain can often collect and process information unconsciously with out you realising it, for example there are Blind people that experience "Blind Sight", eyes are healthy, but their brains cannot show them images, but certain tests show that their brain still processes the information collected without them being aware of it, and they can know things without "seeing them"
> 
> It doesn't seem impossible to me that an unconscious persons brain might still be collecting information if their eyes and ears are still open, and some of that information can be recalled later of becomes part of a dream.




"One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room."

So in addition to your suggestion that "eyes and ears are still open" a periscope (or similar ocular enhancement) might also be required, to support your ardent scepticism of the findings of this particular study!


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> My understanding is that the possibility of continued brain function was ruled out due to the patients having been in cardiac arrest during that time





As I said with out a brain scan being done who is to know?


> My further understanding, is that the study was able to verify that at least one of the patients had valid (i.e. not imagined) recollections of actual events which occurred throughout the period of his cardiac arrest.



As I said, unconsciousness is not as simple as on/off, varying brain states result in varying levels of consciousness, even some forms of consciousness that seem like the person in unconscious, were the person them selves may not know their brain is collecting and processing information.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> "One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room."
> 
> So in addition to your suggestion that "eyes and ears are still open" a periscope (or similar ocular enhancement) might also be required, to support your ardent scepticism of the findings of this particular study!




in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.

We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.
> 
> We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.



I shall resist the temptation to proffer a snide response.

Yes! The work of scientific pioneers, in forging to expand the frontiers of current scientific knowledge, while faced with a society plagued with zealots religiously clinging to limited conceptions of experienced reality, does indeed create its stresses.

Perhaps a revisitation of all scientific findings to date is now in order!

So just how much of the (so called) "science" to which you profess, could reasonably survive your strictures regarding the conclusive exclusion of hallucinations, which by your own accounts can be "very vivid"?

Edit:I forgot to mention, I do not subscribe to the view that science is in any way attempting or seeking to invoke "the supernatural".  In my view it is merely seeking to expand mankinds knowledge and understanding of the mysteries of all existence and, as such, science continues to be a work in progress.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm looking forward to being a nuisance ghost




You fulfill that role quite well already.    (jk)


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> So just how much of the (so called) "science" to which you profess, could reasonably survive your strictures regarding the conclusive exclusion of hallucinations, which by your own accounts can be "very vivid"?





in science you seek to verify your answers in multiple ways, using controls to try and rule out other possibilities, and you make sure your experiments can be repeated by others etc.

In regards to the discussion at hand, I would want the subject to be under going a brain scan that confirmed no brain activity was happening before we ruled out brain activity as a possible cause.

Also, I would seek to get the subject to reveal some "new information" that wouldn't have been possible for them to have picked up on either consciously or subconsciously in any other way than besides having a genuine out of body experience.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.
> 
> We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.




Well I hope that science will continue to study the subject and come to a definite conclusion before I die, otherwise I'm not going.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.
> 
> We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.




The way you know that what you call 'real world' ranks above hallucination is because it feels more real. 
But when you're in a dream state, you think that's the ultimate reality too.  And then at some point, if you're capable of lucid dreaming, you think "wait... I'm dreaming!" and you try to wake up.  Then you manage to wake yourself up only to find that it was a false awakening, and you're still dreaming. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening

Advanced spiritual practitioners tell us that the states they visit are more real than this reality (ie. the one we think of as ultimate 'real' reality).  There's no way for us to know this reality is the ultimate reality.  It may be another dream, or a dream within a dream.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> in science you seek to verify your answers in multiple ways, using controls to try and rule out other possibilities, and you make sure your experiments can be repeated by others etc.
> 
> In regards to the discussion at hand, I would want the subject to be under going a brain scan that confirmed no brain activity was happening before we ruled out brain activity as a possible cause.
> 
> Also, I would seek to get the subject to reveal some "new information" that wouldn't have been possible for them to have picked up on either consciously or subconsciously in any other way than besides having a genuine out of body experience.




My understanding, is that this study was an attempt to further investigate the validity of matters for which there had already been an accumulating body of anecdotal evidence, which in and of itself,  would readily satisfy all of your expressed objections to date.

This leads me to believe that your dissatisfaction is based upon your tacit objections. However, until such objections are brought to the surface, I cannot reasonably by expected to afford them any accommodation.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Advanced spiritual practitioners tell us that the states they visit are more real than this reality (ie. the one we think of as ultimate 'real' reality). .




that sounds like something a user of hallucinogenic drugs might say.

either way, its a claims that would require evidence before it could be taken seriously.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> already been an accumulating body of anecdotal evidence, which in and of itself,  would readily satisfy all of your expressed objections to date.
> 
> .




the plural of "anecdotal" is not "Data"


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> My wife haunted the house for about 3 months after passing and on her birthday for about three years. The cat would wale and pupils dilate. The electrics with whistle and bells would go off.
> 
> I'm looking forward to being a nuisance ghost




I can hear the chains rattling already.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> the plural of "anecdotal" is not "Data"



Thankyou for offering to share one of your more profound insights!

And your point is....
....what exactly?

Are you truly dismissing that body of anecdotal accounts as largely comprised of misinformation, (rather than information)?

 How about we stop beating around the bush and start talking about the real issue that you have with the AWARE study's findings?


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> Are you truly dismissing that body of anecdotal accounts as largely comprised of misinformation, (rather than information)?




I am saying that a large body of anecdotal claims doesn't mean something is true, for example, there is a large body of anecdotal claims of alien encounters, this isn't evidence that alien encounters are actually happening, its just evidence that people are saying they are happening.

The reasons for the large body of alien encounter claims can vary from hallucination to attention seeking, drug use and many other things.

--------------------

10 years after his best selling book was published this boy has admitted he made up the whole story of going to and returning from heaven.



Do you you think he is the only one that has made up stories for money, fame or attention?

add, the made up stories to the hallucinations, dreams and unconscious information gathering etc and you get a "Large body of anecdotal stories" non of which are real.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> that sounds like something a user of hallucinogenic drugs might say.
> 
> either way, its a claims that would require evidence before it could be taken seriously.




I'm anti-drugs, as a general rule.  

Evidence?  How would evidence be possible?  The only evidence would be experiential.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am saying that a large body of anecdotal claims doesn't mean something is true, for example, there is a large body of anecdotal claims of alien encounters, this isn't evidence that alien encounters are actually happening, its just evidence that people are saying they are happening.
> 
> The reasons for the large body of alien encounter claims can vary from hallucination to attention seeking, drug use and many other things.
> 
> ...




Rather than continuing to entertain your customary playing of the usual "fraud" and/or "hallucination" trump cards from the acclaimed tarot deck of the sceptics, how about we talk about the real issue that has you so vehemently opposed to the findings of the AWARE study?


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> Rather than continuing to entertain your customary playing of the usual "fraud" and/or "hallucination" trump cards from the acclaimed tarot deck of the sceptics, how about we talk about the real issue that has you so vehemently opposed to the findings of the AWARE study?




Interesting question. I'm surprised by the strong opposition of some to the possibility of life after death. One would have thought it would be a more pleasant thing to believe in , rather than to believe we just go back to dust and it's the end for us.

I think the sceptics generally have a disregard for religion and must try and prove them wrong at all costs, in the mistaken belief that religion "owns" life after death because of all their supernatural teachings. I think religions are fooling themselves and others with their brand of "fire and brimstone"; ie obey us or go to hell.

 Therefore its possible to keep an open mind about life after death from a non religious perspective instead of just trying to debunk the whole issue because you don't like religion.


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> how about we talk about the real issue that has you so vehemently opposed to the findings of the AWARE study?




Which findings?


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting question. I'm surprised by the strong opposition of some to the possibility of life after death.
> .




I don't have an opposition to life after death, after all I don't want to die either.

But I have an opposition to jumping to the conclusion that there is life after death before we have a good reason to think that it exists.


> One would have thought it would be a more pleasant thing to believe in , rather than to believe we just go back to dust and it's the end for us.




Yes it would be, but the fact that a belief might be comforting doesn't increase its chance that it is true, and I would much rather believe a cold hard truth, than a comforting lie. But not every one does.



> I think the sceptics generally have a disregard for religion and must try and prove them wrong at all costs,




you have that backwards.

the burden of proof is on the ones making the claim, its not up to sceptics to "prove things wrong"

All of my discussion here has been related to other possible explanations that would need to be ruled out before we could accept the claim that consciousness exists outside of brains.



> Therefore its possible to keep an open mind about life after death from a non religious perspective instead of just trying to debunk the whole issue because you don't like religion




as I said, its not about debunking things, its about making sure something is true before believing it.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Which findings?



How about we start with the ones that gave rise to your perceived need to accuse Dr Parnia et al. of fraud!

Edit: I am now convinced this discussion is better suited to the metaphysical/sceptical/science/religion thread so I would be happy, if at all possible, to see my posts accordingly moved.


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Evidence?  How would evidence be possible?  The only evidence would be experiential.




a brain scan that made sure the brain wasn't processing information might be a start, before you assume the brain is not functioning.

Also if the person is saying they left their body and watched from the corner of the room, maybe researchers could hide signs on the top of shelves that could only be viewed by a person floating high in the corner of the room with a code on it.

If the person comes back and says, yeah I sore this hidden message with XXXX code on it, maybe that would carry more weight.

But saying people sore a light or felt peaceful etc, there is nothing that suggests this isn't all happening in their brain.


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> How about we start with the ones that gave rise to your perceived need to accuse Dr Parnia et al. of fraud!
> 
> Edit: I am now convinced this discussion is better suited to the metaphysical/sceptical/science/religion thread so I would be happy, if at all possible, to see my posts accordingly moved.



when did I call Dr parnia a fraud?


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## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am saying that a large body of anecdotal claims doesn't mean something is true, for example, there is a large body of anecdotal claims of alien encounters, this isn't evidence that alien encounters are actually happening, its just evidence that people are saying they are happening.
> 
> The reasons for the large body of alien encounter claims can vary from hallucination to attention seeking, drug use and many other things.
> 
> ...






Value Collector said:


> when did I call Dr parnia a fraud?



Actually I may be in error, it appears that I may have mistaken one of your references to the pronoun "he" as meaning "Dr Parnia", when it may have been that you meant it in reference to somebody else. If that is the case then I sincerely apologise and ask that my response be revised to read "How about we start with the findings that gave rise to your perceived need to strongly doubt the integrity of Dr Parnia et al!"


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> "How about we start with the findings that gave rise to your perceived need to strongly doubt the integrity of Dr Parnia et al!"




I am not even sure who Dr Parnia is, or where I have said I doubt his integrity, or which findings you are talking about.


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## pixel (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I hope that science will continue to study the subject and come to a definite conclusion before I die, otherwise I'm not going.



I am fully aware of the need to go. Otherwise, we'd long ago have started eating babies.
I am also fully aware that we can't be sure what's on "the other side" of physical death, while we're still on "this side". All I have to go by is observable evidence and conclusions drawn by analogy. And on balance, I find it far more likely that consciousness (regardless of the number of sub-"conscious" dream levels) only exists in connection with living cells, predominantly of the brain and nerve variety. Picking up on the hardware/ software analogy, software only becomes "real" when it's loaded into the RAM hardware. A jpeg image of my avatar needs to have a medium, be that a pattern inside a computer chip, or pixels on a flat screen. Even in transit from my computer's RAM, via the Internet, onto your display screen, where it's reduced to bits in a wave pattern rushing through wires or "empty space", there won't be any pixels of Pixel without the physical Pixel having existed in person. (And don't anybody deny that a cat is a person  )

Once the "hardware", i.e. the living organism and specifically the nerve cells, is gone, no new "software", i.e. thoughts and dreams and consciousness, can be generated. Only pictures, copies, recorded shadows survive, and they remain in a very static and sterile form.

For me personally, the above is backed by sufficient evidence to carry me through life with a peaceful mind. If, against all expectation, consciousness (a term I prefer to "soul") can somehow migrate across and exist without the living organism that generated it, I'll do my utmost to get back in touch and let you know I was wrong. (... assuming I can find the time off more important tasks, like haunting the current crop of "World Leaders", or re-programming the software in religious nutters' brains...  )


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## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not even sure who Dr Parnia is, or where I have said I doubt his integrity, or which findings you are talking about.



What!!?
If that is truly the case, then how did you come to be so acutely aware of one particular aspect of his methodology, and how did we come to be engaged in a discussion centred on his actual research findings?


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

pixel said:


> Picking up on the hardware/ software analogy, software only becomes "real" when it's loaded into the RAM hardware.




So that CD with Windows on it does not actually exist ? 

Anyway, you are right, we can't be sure what lies on the other side if there is one. I have anecdotal evidence to go by , but I'm sure sceptics would dismiss it as illusory so I won't repeat it here.

To each their own on this subject I think.


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## pixel (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So that CD with Windows on it does not actually exist ?



It does exist, but it's a static copy. Dead. Unchanging.
Unless some functioning ("living") hardware is coming along to change it. The original "Master", from which yours is a static copy, can only be changed if it's loaded into a "live" hardware brain.

Within this analogy, the "image" you have of "Pixel" is being built inside YOUR hardware (brain) and only you can change it as new bits and pixels enter your input port(s). Once the connection breaks and no new data arrive at your end, your copy is static. Mind you, it's unlikely to ever be a true, identical copy. But without the Pixel software running and changing shapes inside the Pixel hardware, the original will no longer change and give you a valid reason to change your static copy.


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> What!!?
> If that is truly the case, then how did you come to be so acutely aware of one particular aspect of his methodology, and how did we come to be engaged in a discussion centred on his actual research findings?



I still have no idea about which findings you are talking about, and which methodology or where I said I disputed the findings.

Did you link it some where?


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## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I still have no idea about which findings you are talking about, and which methodology or where I said I disputed the findings.
> 
> Did you link it some where?



Yes!


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## pixel (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I still have no idea about which findings you are talking about, and which methodology or where I said I disputed the findings.
> 
> Did you link it some where?



Google Dr Parnia 
e.g. https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page


> In 2008, a large-scale study involving 2060 patients from 15 hospitals in the United Kingdom, United States and *Austria* was launched.



(my highlights)

I would raise a few concerns in the context of the above study:

All 2000+ patients had been resuscitated from cardiac arrest. As far as I'm aware, cardiac arrest may be a precursor to death, but the patient is not dead.
If Cardiac arrest equates Death, why not interview patients undergoing Open Heart surgery? Or any surgery where the heart stops beating, regardless whether intentionally or by accident.
Only two patients reported "visual" memories from the period during which their hearts hadn't been beating. The rest mentioned either nothing at all, or talked about sounds and dreams.
Another interesting link in the same context:
http://skeptiko.com/sam-parnia-claims-near-death-experience-probably-an-illusion/


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## Tisme (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Therefore its possible to keep an open mind about life after death from a non religious perspective instead of just trying to debunk the whole issue because you don't like religion.




I still go and sit in front of the grave and have a chat, so I'm guessing my primitive is still strong. So far I haven't sighted any psychopomps or astral projections, but I have a feeling I might some time in the future when my turn comes.


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I still go and sit in front of the grave and have a chat, so I'm guessing my primitive is still strong. So far I haven't sighted any psychopomps or astral projections, but I have a feeling I might some time in the future when my turn comes.




Yep, we will all find out for sure one day.


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> Yes!



Ahh ok you are talking about the article that describes the study.

I have no problem with the data of the study or The findings.

My problem is people jumping to the conclusion that the findings some how prove life after death.

Basically all the study's findings are is that 39% of people reported some sort of awareness while they were unconscious, as I have explained I have no problem with that as I said there are natural reasons this can occur.

I would expect that people might be dreaming or having some sort of experience related to their brain being in distress as it heads towards death or comes back from the edge.

And one guy reported out of body experience, I have no problem with the study reporting his account, because they aren't claiming it actually happened, they are just reporting his account, which may be an hallucination, or even a fraud, or a mixture of real information And imagined.

The fact we may experiance various levels of consciousness and dream states as we die doesn't surprise me, but yeah the before we jump to supernatural conclusions we need to rule out other more logical causes.


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## cynic (23 August 2017)

pixel said:


> Google Dr Parnia
> e.g. https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page
> (my highlights)
> 
> ...




For those patients undergoing heart surgery, does the blood flow carrying oxygen to the brain cease?

If not, then that would likely be the reason for not including them within the study.

As to your other concerns/comments, my understanding is that the majority of those 2060 patients perished, with only 330 surviving. 

140 of those survivors were qualified for a stage one interview with only 101 of those progressing to the stage two interview.
 7 reported experiences that are typically referred to as (and/or associated with) NDE/OBEs. 
As you have already rightly mentioned, 2 of those were able to recount having witnessed events pertaining to their resuscitation.


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## cynic (23 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Ahh ok you are talking about the article that describes the study.
> 
> I have no problem with the data of the study or The findings.
> 
> ...



I trust that it is now understood that my purpose in posting those articles to this thread, was (and still is), to highlight that those findings present some definite challenges to popular scientific conceptions about consciousness and the role of the physical brain in supporting same.


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## Value Collector (23 August 2017)

cynic said:


> I trust that it is now understood that my purpose in posting those articles to this thread, was (and still is), to highlight that those findings present some definite challenges to popular scientific conceptions about consciousness and the role of the physical brain in supporting same.



I am not sure the findings are challenging for neuroscience, I think they actually go along with what would be expected.

People have been reporting seeing "the light" etc for a long time, as I said nothing suggests it's anything more than just a symptom of a brain on its way out. 

It's not the claim about "seeing the light" that's a problem, it's assume that "seeing the light" means something supernatural is happening.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure the findings are challenging for neuroscience, I think they actually go along with what would be expected.
> 
> People have been reporting seeing "the light" etc for a long time, as I said nothing suggests it's anything more than just a symptom of a brain on its way out.
> 
> It's not the claim about "seeing the light" that's a problem, it's assume that "seeing the light" means something supernatural is happening.




To me this simply comes back to questions regarding the validation (where possible) of those recounted observations.

The basis for belief that brain activity was absent, seems to rely heavily on the supposition that such activity ceases inside 10 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

 Provided that the supposition is correct (perhaps it isn't!), then current scientific conceptions surrounding the relationship (or absence thereof) between consciousness and physical brain activity, would definitely need to be revisited in light of such findings.

(My preference is not to emphasize any metaphysical implications that could potentially arise, in the event that a study of this nature, succeeds in conclusively validating the reported observations of someone claiming to have experienced an NDE/OBE.)


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

In regards to near death experience.

A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and they are on the verge of heaven.

However, I think the feeling of Peacefulness and wellbeing might be attributed to low oxygen.

What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports  that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"

I think its possible people on the verge of dying might get the same feeling, and this would combined with "seeing the light", creates the "Near death experience",


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In regards to near death experience.
> 
> A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and the are on the verge of heaven.
> 
> ...





Except this happens when people are conscious, not unconscious.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Except this happens when people are conscious, not unconscious.





so what?

If that guy in the video was allowed to continue till he passed out, who's to say the sense of euphoria wouldn't continue to go on after he out cold for a while, and as his brain shut down he may "see the light" etc. Then as we bring him back, he may end up feeling the euphoria and light illusions again and report a near death experience, that is simply part of the process of dying.

We can't rule out that a person in the process of dying, even if they seem totally unconscious, is not still able to experience thoughts or feelings inside their brain, I don't think brain activity goes to zero the moment a person passes out, it can continue for a while on the way out, and also start up on the way back in before the person seems concious. Even people in comas sometimes report hearing the voices of relatives that visited etc.


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> so what?




So you are distracting from the point, which is the experiences of people near death, no blood flow to the brain with people who are simply experiencing a temporary deprivation of oxygen.

The two are not comparable.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So you are distracting from the point, which is the experiences of people near death, no blood flow to the brain with people who are simply experiencing a temporary deprivation of oxygen.
> 
> The two are not comparable.




So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?

I think that might be a perfect situation for hypoxia to occur.

Your only argument against it is that the person was "unconscious", but it is totally possible that thoughts and feelings in the brain can carry on for a while after the person has seemed to have lost consciousness and for them to begin for a while berfore the person wakes up.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In regards to near death experience.
> 
> A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and they are on the verge of heaven.
> 
> ...





Those whom have experienced an NDE or OBE, will assure you that their experience was distinctly different, in a number of respects, to what is being described in that video.

Nice try though!


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?




Well , who knows for sure. I hope you get your wish and return to dust after you die (no offence meant) , my ghost will come and put flowers on your grave.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

cynic said:


> Those whom have experienced an NDE or OBE, will assure you that their experience was distinctly different, in a number of respects, to what is being described in that video.
> 
> Nice try though!




How so?

1 in 5 said they had a sense of usual peacefulness, I can't see why this can't be the result of hypoxia.

Some reported seeing the sun, or bright flashes, I can't see why this couldn't be just brain activity, I would expect a brain in distress to be doing all sorts of crazy things, Boxers etc often report "seeing stars" when they are drifting in and out of consciousness, combine that with hypoxia and a prolonged experience, suddenly you are seeing flashes of light and feeling great, "gee must be heaven" lol.

of those in the study 39% report some sort of awareness, but many couldn't give any details, this could be explained by the brain coming in and out of consciousness as they are resuscitated, I as I have said I doubt its simple on and off, most likely there is a sliding scale progression between fully aware and totally brain dead.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well , who knows for sure. I hope you get your wish




I don't think I am the one with wishful thinking.


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## pixel (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> most likely there is a sliding scale progression between fully aware and totally brain dead.



Considering the number of cells in a human brain, that would be the most plausible assumption. Far more plausible than believing that the Billions of cells somehow communicate *"Attention! At the count of Three, Everybody switch off ! one ... two ... "*


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## Gringotts Bank (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports  that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"




You realize that at the 2 min mark he is, for all intents and purposes, dying?


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## pixel (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?



Now, THAT doesn't take much to verify. One of these gadgets will suffice:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/122594847699
As an Asbestosis sufferer, I've got one, and I can categorically confirm that my oxygen levels drop quickly to 50%. It only takes a few steps for the muscles to gobble up most of the available oxygen, leaving not enough for the brain. Without medical intervention - i.e. bottled oxygen - the brain will react swiftly and show me lots of swirling stars. Rest assured, there's nothing dreamlike, subconscious, or metaphysical about it, purely physical - physiological.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> How so?
> 
> 1 in 5 said they had a sense of usual peacefulness, I can't see why this can't be the result of hypoxia.
> 
> ...



Regretfully this discussion seems to have become more heavily focussed on the scepticism surrounding the metaphysical implications that might potentially arise from findings of such studies. That was not my intention when posting to this particular thread.
 I have just posted a youtube vid of an NBC report, to bellenuits science/religion/metaphysics/scepticism  thread, and would be more than happy to continue this discussion there.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> You realize that at the 2 min mark he is, for all intents and purposes, dying?




Yeah exactly, as are the people in the study that reported "Near death experiences"

Can't you see the connection?

e.g. people in the process of dying report "Near death experiences" where they felt unusual sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, they often attribute this to being on their way to heaven, however as it turns out it could just be the result of hypoxia, induced by low or no blood flow to the brain.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

cynic said:


> Regretfully this discussion seems to have become more heavily focussed on the scepticism surrounding the metaphysical implications that might potentially arise from findings of such studies. .





Actually it hasn't, I put up a video of a Doctor putting himself through a scientific experiment, where he lowered his oxygen levels, and reported similar feeling of peacefulness and wellbeing to what the Near death experience people reported, I then suggested that this state of low oxygen might also be the cause of the feeling during Near death experience.

But if you only want to discuss it as a "mystery", and not explore any possible scientific explanations, then yes I guess you put you post in the wrong thread.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Actually it hasn't, I put up a video of a Doctor putting himself through a scientific experiment, where he lowered his oxygen levels, and reported similar feeling of peacefulness and wellbeing to what the Near death experience people reported, I then suggested that this state of low oxygen might also be the cause of the feeling during Near death experience.
> 
> But if you only want to discuss it as a "mystery", and not explore any possible scientific explanations, then yes I guess you put you post in the wrong thread.




No, that was never my intention in this thread!

This was the right thread at the outset, but we seem to be having a discussion that is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings!


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

cynic said:


> but we seem to be having a discussion that is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings!




His "findings" seem pretty bland, and I was actually discussing them, I was discussing possible causes of some of the things he was reporting, thats the whole reason I uploaded the Dr doing the hypoxia experiment, Because hypoxia like symptoms were part of his findings.

But either way, Dr Parnia himself has said he thinks near death experience might be an illusion, and I tend to agree, and I don't know which "Findings" impress you, but it all seems rather bland to me, except for one guy that had the "out of body experience", which as I said could easily be a vivid hallucination, mixed with some real information his was receiving via senses that were still active, e.g. unconsciously hearing what the Dr's are saying, a bit like how you can influence the dreams of a sleep talker by suggesting things to them.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> His "findings" seem pretty bland, and I was actually discussing them, I was discussing possible causes of some of the things he was reporting, thats the whole reason I uploaded the Dr doing the hypoxia experiment, Because hypoxia like symptoms were part of his findings.
> 
> But either way, Dr Parnia himself has said he thinks near death experience might be an illusion, and I tend to agree, and I don't know which "Findings" impress you, but it all seems rather bland to me, except for one guy that had the "out of body experience", which as I said could easily be a vivid hallucination, mixed with some real information his was receiving via senses that were still active, e.g. unconsciously hearing what the Dr's are saying, a bit like how you can influence the dreams of a sleep talker by suggesting things to them.



I believe that you and I are already perfectly well aware of the true intention underlying your posting of that video.

Whilst the content is suited to discussion in a science thread, it is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings.

I have already indicated that I am happy to further this discussion in another thread. The reason for now preferring that thread, over this one, is that I consider it to be better suited to the accommodation of the ardent scepticism that typically arises when religious zealots are confronted with findings running counter to their deeply entrenched beliefs.


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2017)

I believe studies have been done in surgical theatres where "coded objects" were place around the room and subjects were able to identify them later.

If I find that research, I'll post it here.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

cynic said:


> I believe that you and I are already perfectly well aware of the true intention underlying your posting of that video.





Ok, you have completely lost me again, you seem to prefer to talk in riddles than just say what you mean, So I have now lost interest.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I believe studies have been done in surgical theatres where "coded objects" were place around the room and subjects were able to identify them later.
> 
> If I find that research, I'll post it here.




Dr Parnia, in the study we have been discussing, placed hidden pictures above the beds, however none of the subjects were able to identify them, including the guy that said he had the out of body experience.


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## bellenuit (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dr Parnia, in the study we have been discussing, placed hidden pictures above the beds, however none of the subjects were able to identify them, including the guy that said he had the out of body experience.




A rhetorical question. If one is having an out of body experience, what organ is used to see objects.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

bellenuit said:


> A rhetorical question. If one is having an out of body experience, what organ is used to see objects.


----------



## cynic (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dr Parnia, in the study we have been discussing, placed hidden pictures above the beds, however none of the subjects were able to identify them, including the guy that said he had the out of body experience.



True, but that's not quite the whole story now, is it?
If you'd examined a little further, you would know exactly why that guy didn't see any of the placed symbols! 

He was in one of the rooms where none were placed!!

His experience was corroborated from his recounted observations of events between his cardiac arrest and subsequent resuscitation.


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## Gringotts Bank (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah exactly, as are the people in the study that reported "Near death experiences"
> 
> Can't you see the connection?
> 
> e.g. people in the process of dying report "Near death experiences" where they felt unusual sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, they often attribute this to being on their way to heaven, however as it turns out it could just be the result of hypoxia, induced by low or no blood flow to the brain.




Yeh but heaven isn't a place or a realm, it's a state of mind (according to those who know).  You enter it by withdrawing from the self.  Self has no form, it's just an output of the hardware/software, so as the brain is deprived of oxygen that software stops functioning, so bliss is experienced.  The natural state.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

cynic said:


> His experience was corroborated from his recounted observations of events between his cardiac arrest and subsequent resuscitation.




As I said I am kinda of done with the discussion with you.

Also, as I explained earlier, I saw nothing that could rule out his "observation of events" wasn't just him hearing the events taking place and any visuals totally imagined.


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## Value Collector (24 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh but heaven isn't a place or a realm, it's a state of mind (according to those who know).  You enter it by withdrawing from the self.  Self has no form, it's just an output of the hardware/software, so as the brain is deprived of oxygen that software stops functioning, so bliss is experienced.  The natural state.




So heaven is just death??? a lot of people are going to be disappointed,


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## Gringotts Bank (24 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So heaven is just death??? a lot of people are going to be disappointed,



Death of the ego, yes.  There's scientific support for this now.


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## cynic (24 August 2017)

bellenuit said:


> A rhetorical question. If one is having an out of body experience, what organ is used to see objects.




https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1025010015662
Not exactly an answer to your question, but, apparently some blind people have experienced the ability to see during NDEs.


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2017)

This guy was "dead" for several days. He woke up when an autopsy was about to be performed on him.

He told doctors about visiting out of his body with a sick child and what was wrong with the child. The doctors confirmed what he said about the child.

He turned from an atheist into a priest because of his experience.

http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/some-people-were-dead-for-several-days.html


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## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> This guy was "dead" for several days. He woke up when an autopsy was about to be performed on him.
> 
> He told doctors about visiting out of his body with a sick child and what was wrong with the child. The doctors confirmed what he said about the child.
> 
> ...




Is there a report from a credible source about this?

Anything written in independent media etc from around the time it actually happened? Even like A local news paper article about it or something from around the time it is said to have happened.

Otherwise how do we know it wasn't just a story that was made up?

I mean I can link stories of people that claimed to be abducted by aliens, but that doesn't make it true.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Is there a report from a credible source about this?




The case was on a BBC Horizon program called "Afterlife" some years ago.

I would think that the BBC would check it out thoroughly before broadcasting it.


----------



## Tisme (25 August 2017)

Odd how these type of threads start out as a mutual discovery and quickly form into one or two who argue the crossed arms negative, thereby shutting down the opportunity to explore the boundaries.


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The case was on a BBC Horizon program called "Afterlife" some years ago.
> 
> I would think that the BBC would check it out thoroughly before broadcasting it.



I doubt it, those sort of shows are generally labeled as "entertainment only" 

But yeah, this all appartrently happened in 1976, so see if you can find references to it from that time, or actual medical records from that time. Otherwise I would just say it's another case of a BS religious conversion story that's been made up to impress the flock.

----------------------

Plenty of claims out there, is this proof of aliens

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ials-revealed-the-meaning-of-life-to-him/amp/

If you don't think this claim is evidence for aliens you should be able to see why the claim you link is also unimpressive.


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Odd how these type of threads start out as a mutual discovery and quickly form into one or two who argue the crossed arms negative, thereby shutting down the opportunity to explore the boundaries.



Isn't asking for evidence part of " exploring the boundary" 

This is a science thread.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I doubt it, those sort of shows are generally labeled as "entertainment only"




I suggest you take it up with the BBC.

Horizon has always been a serious investigative program. If you have never watched it I wouldn't write it off as negligently as you do.


----------



## Tisme (25 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Isn't asking for evidence part of " exploring the boundary"
> 
> This is a science thread.





Not if you are trying to expand a conversation. Proofs should be left at the end so that the whole subject can be overviewed, discussed freely  and workshopped. If you shut the gate on one aspect you can be severing a link to a broader issue.

There are so many logical holes in people "seeing the light", but this thread is about something that is prima facie illogical, so applying objective rules to a subjective discussion is counter productive IMO.

My wife was an aethiest and was so when she passed away, but ten years earlier she was in ICU after a world first operation and all but gone to heaven. She heeded my pleas to not leave me and later recounted how she too was in a peaceful state in a bright environment... she didn't seem to fear death after that and perhaps explains why she died with a smile on her face...beats me.


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Not if you are trying to expand a conversation. Proofs should be left at the end so that the whole subject can be overviewed, discussed freely  and workshopped.





So which part did you take offence to? was it me asking if rumple had any other accounts of the man waking up after days in a morgue?

Because I think that is important, before we discuss the topic to far its important to find out if the actually event happened, e.g. did the guy die for several days and then wake up. because if that didn't happen, whats the point of discussing the rest of the claim.


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I suggest you take it up with the BBC.
> 
> Horizon has always been a serious investigative program. If you have never watched it I wouldn't write it off as negligently as you do.




Well you are the the one that made the post here saying "This guy was "dead" for several days" I was was just wondering if you had actually looked into the claim to see if the reports are substantiated by independent sources from that time.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but if that happened I would think it would make international news, at the very least it would make interesting local news, and be in some medical journals.

I tried to find stuff myself, but I can't find anything written about until a decade after it was said to occur.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Well you are the the one that made the post here saying "This guy was "dead" for several days" I was was just wondering if you had actually looked into the claim to see if the reports are substantiated by independent sources from that time.




A bit hard to get records from Russia.



> Forgive me if I am wrong, but if that happened I would think it would make international news, at the very least it would make interesting local news, and be in some medical journals.




If the guy was a dissident I don't think the Russians would be giving him publicity.



> I tried to find stuff myself, but I can't find anything written about until a decade after it was said to occur.




He probably had to get out of Russia first.

In any case I reported that as information for those of an open mind to consider. You will never be happy untill your late great aunt comes knocking on your door but others may be interested.


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A bit hard to get records from Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As I said, I am pretty sure it would have made international news, at least in the medical profession.

But even if we give the story the benefit of the doubt, and say maybe the story was hidden by the KGB, and maybe no medical records were kept, and maybe he told no one until he got to America, and maybe he didn't make it up to help build his profitable church.

But, why are there more cases of people waking up after 3 days being dead?

Even if his situation was covered up, with millions of people dying each year all around the world, why don't we have more examples that are well documented???



> In any case I reported that as information for those of an open mind to consider. You will never be happy untill your late great aunt comes knocking on your door but others may be interested.




Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

But I don't think my request was to extraordinary, a simple request for evidence that he died and was in the morgue for 3 days shouldn't be hard to prove.

Forget about the NDE, I would be impressed by the dying for three days bit, but as I said if that were possible shouldn't we have more examples, (that are well documented)


----------



## pixel (25 August 2017)

now for some conventional Science:
Babylonians seem to have used a much simpler concept of Trigonometry than we do with our sin and tan complexities. KISS over 3000 years ago 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-...ocks-simpler-trigonometry-mathematics/8841368


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## SirRumpole (25 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Forget about the NDE, I would be impressed by the dying for three days bit, but as I said if that were possible shouldn't we have more examples, (that are well documented)




A simple search bought up more cases of people who woke up in morgues.

Whether they satisfy your "documentation" standard is up to you, I'm not arguing the toss anymore.


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2017)

i don't know how it will work but it sure oh is exciting. musk thinks AI will explode and i think he's right.  and that we are in danger of what he has described to be quite similar to terminators. i think the potential for them to develop the AI to control a terminator is not that difficult at all, BUT the  mechanical engineering is way off (not software intelligence for a terminator in the battlefield).  as musk puts it, the network intelligence will get so deep that it will take off.  when you have a bunch of computers working stuff out together , things happen fast enough.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 August 2017)

grah33 said:


> i don't know how it will work but it sure oh is exciting. musk thinks AI will explode and i think he's right.  and that we are in danger of what he has described to be quite similar to terminators. i think the potential for them to develop the AI to control a terminator is not that difficult at all, BUT the  mechanical engineering is way off (not software intelligence for a terminator in the battlefield).  as musk puts it, the network intelligence will get so deep that it will take off.  when you have a bunch of computers working stuff out together , things happen fast enough.




It's possibly already happened, in a way.  We live in a universe where we don't know what's going on, and yet there's obviously some enormous intelligence orchestrating everything.  Call it Nature, Physics, God or whatever you want, it's undeniable that something is holding the planets in place and digesting your food.  You don't do either of those things with your own volition.

When AI approaches human intelligence, the thing will accelerate so incredibly fast we won't have time to blink.  It will be like a looming event, and I suppose it will reach a level compatible with Nature itself.  Then it has to decide whether we get to know what's happening.  The way it is right now, we've been treated like mushrooms.  We have no idea why we're here or what life's about.  That may happen again with AI.

The news headlines may be like "We're approaching singularity" and then the next day "It happened... we know it happened, but we don't know where or what it is any more".


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 August 2017)

In other words, it may get God-level smart and decide to keep us in the dark as to how the breakaway happened.  One can only assume that with exponential growth, it would very quickly approach Nature itself in terms of its behaviour and characteristics.  But then again it was always part of Nature to begin with, as we are.  So it may be more like a merging event.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 August 2017)

Do humans worry about what the ants are doing?  No, they barely consider them.  And ants don't know about humans.  It may be the same when AI really takes off.  It will be so far beyond us, we won't even be able to register it, unless we get stepped on.  Hopefully it wears ripple soles to give us half a chance.


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> In other words, it may get God-level smart and decide to keep us in the dark as to how the breakaway happened.  One can only assume that with exponential growth, it would very quickly approach Nature itself in terms of its behaviour and characteristics.  But then again it was always part of Nature to begin with, as we are.  So it may be more like a merging event.



sick!  i saw this clip where it happens, and then it invents technology and makes the robot dissapear to protect itself.  in that case , it would have invented new technology to best solve the problem at hand (avoiding humans), very quickly.

on another note, given the net and information going on everywhere, they  should be able to discover whatever else there is to discover faster now.  then again,  some nukes are very likely to go off too.  they're setup to immediately fire back at each other.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2017)

Your genetic tests are available to life insurance companies, and may be used to deny you insurance.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/genetic-testing-can-mean-you-are-denied-life-insurance/8843596


----------



## cynic (26 August 2017)

https://m.phys.org/news/2016-12-verlinde-theory-gravity.html
It's still early days on this one, but I do find it both refreshing and exciting, that some scientists, in their efforts to better understand our universe, are still willing to question some of the more popular and deeply entrenched scientific theories.


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Your genetic tests are available to life insurance companies, and may be used to deny you insurance.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/genetic-testing-can-mean-you-are-denied-life-insurance/8843596




A bit like your driving record can cause you to be denied, or pay a higher price for your motor vehicle insurance.


----------



## Tisme (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Your genetic tests are available to life insurance companies, and may be used to deny you insurance.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/genetic-testing-can-mean-you-are-denied-life-insurance/8843596




So how does that gel with arguments about apparent DNA driven lifestyle choices, like promiscuous sex,  unsanitary sex, etc. Will they pay higher premiums or will the govt regulate on the basis they are just like us, but different enough to be protected from people just like us?

Is this ABC TV agenda to avoid insurers targetting a future discovery DNA link that causes aberrant high risk behaviours?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A bit like your driving record can cause you to be denied, or pay a higher price for your motor vehicle insurance.




You can't do anything about your genetics, but you can choose to drive safely.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Is this ABC TV agenda to avoid insurers targetting a future discovery DNA link that causes aberrant high risk behaviours?




Maybe there could be a genetic test for Left/Right political tendencies to filter ABC reporters ?


----------



## Tisme (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe there could be a genetic test for Left/Right political tendencies to filter ABC reporters ?





Be interesting to profile the ABC staff to see where their ancestral roots lay. My bet is the ones who want to destroy the remnants of the ABC's traditional British pedigree are the ones whose parents blew in from trashed countries.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Be interesting to profile the ABC staff to see where their ancestral roots lay. My bet is the ones who want to destroy the remnants of the ABC's traditional British pedigree are the ones whose parents blew in from trashed countries.




Plus the ones who blew in 50,000 years ago.


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A bit like your driving record can cause you to be denied, or pay a higher price for your motor vehicle insurance.




Why does that matter? all sorts of things outside of your control determine aspects of insurance.


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You can't do anything about your genetics, but you can choose to drive safely.



Why does that matter? all sorts of things outside of your control determine aspects of insurance.

It's up to the insurance companies which risks they want to insure, at the end of the day its the other insurance customers that will be paying the claims.

If some people have pretty good genetics and are lower risk, their insurance should be lower, if someone has bad genetics maybe they should pay a little extra, or if it is really bad, perhaps private health insurance is not the right option, maybe the whole of society need to help those people via the public system, rather than rely on the smaller group of insurance customers,


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why does that matter? all sorts of things outside of your control determine aspects of insurance.




If taking a genetic test enables earlier diagnosis , prevention , a longer life and more premiums paid, then it's in the insurance companies interest that they be done. Turning people off taking genetic tests by threatening higher premiums is a lose/lose situation for everyone.

People should not be required to tell companies the results of their tests, it's between them and their doctor. 

As it is, insurance companies make $billions, so if they lose a few here and there they win a lot more and they can suck it up as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As it is, insurance companies make $billions, so if they lose a few here and there they win a lot more and they can suck it up as far as I'm concerned.




Insurance companies are in the business of collecting premiums and paying claims, premiums rise to match claims, it's the customers who will absorb any losses.

If an insurance company could save you $300 a year by making sure none of your fellow customers had certain pre exisiting genetic problems, would you join that company, or pay the higher premium to the other company?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If an insurance company could save you $300 a year by making sure none of your fellow customers had certain pre exisiting genetic problems, would you join that company, or pay the higher premium to the other company?




I don't believe people should be denied insurance for factors beyond their control.

A genetic predisposition does not indicate a definite outcome.


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't believe people should be denied insurance for factors beyond their control.
> 
> A genetic predisposition does not indicate a definite outcome.



But would you accept a test that allowed you to source cheaper insurance?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But would you accept a test that allowed you to source cheaper insurance?




I refer you back to my original comment. The requirement to disclose the results of genetic tests to insurance companies deters people from having them and therefore results in the premium holder not taking up potential early treatment and therefore a longer life, which would be  good for insurance companies as well as the premium holder.


----------



## bellenuit (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't believe people should be denied insurance for factors beyond their control.
> 
> A genetic predisposition does not indicate a definite outcome.




A genetic predisposition statistically does indicate a definite outcome and that is why insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone if those more likely to have health problems are to be covered at no additional cost. But I do agree that they should be covered by the public system or perhaps the public purse could pay the additional premium to have them in the private system.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

bellenuit said:


> A genetic predisposition statistically does indicate a definite outcome and that is why insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone if those more likely to have health problems are to be covered at no additional cost. But I do agree that they should be covered by the public system or perhaps the public purse could pay the additional premium to have them in the private system.




* Insurers have taken the risk for decades without knowing about genetic tests and they are still in business. 

* Premium payers have accepted the level of premiums for that time.

* Shareholders have accepted the returns.

There should be a limit as to how much companies should be able to invade your private space, they don't need to know every last item about people's private lives. Insurance is a risk, as I said they already win more than they lose otherwise they would not be in business.


----------



## bellenuit (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> * Insurers have taken the risk for decades without knowing about genetic tests and they are still in business.
> 
> * Premium payers have accepted the level of premiums for that time.
> 
> ...




But there was no choice. Premiums have been higher than they needed to have been which may have deterred some people from taking out private policies. So those who did the right thing by insuring their own health have been penalised.

I agree that insurance companies should not be able to invade every aspect of your private space. But a predisposition to having infirmities that are costly to the insurer should be something they are entitled to know. And as I said, I am not suggesting they not be covered in any way, but either they stay on the public health system, or Government subsidises their additional risk premium if they are to be insured privately.

When one travels overseas, pretty much all travel insurance policies do not cover existing ailments. Should these too be kept secret with no repercussions if some costly overseas health event is a result of a pre-existing ailment?


----------



## Value Collector (28 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> * Insurers have taken the risk for decades without knowing about genetic tests and they are still in business.
> 
> * Premium payers have accepted the level of premiums for that time.
> 
> ...





SirRumpole said:


> * Insurers have taken the risk for decades without knowing about genetic tests and they are still in business.
> 
> * Premium payers have accepted the level of premiums for that time.
> 
> ...




In the past people just got sick and died, however now more and more medical treatments are available, and they are very expense, now it's a great thing we can keep more people alive, but it does increase the amount of claims, the price of the claims, and the duration of the claims.

So medical insurance costs will continue to rise.

No I think if someone happens to be born with a genetic disorder that costs a $1,000,000 society as a whole should take care of that, putting the cost onto those families with health insurance just increases the cost of those with health insurance, and means more people will avoid it.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2017)

bellenuit said:


> When one travels overseas, pretty much all travel insurance policies do not cover existing ailments. Should these too be kept secret with no repercussions if some costly overseas health event is a result of a pre-existing ailment?




A pre existing ailment is a known condition, a genetic test is not a known condition. People who have a genetic pre disposition to a disease do not necessarily develope it.

As I have said at least twice now, if you  punish people for having genetic tests then people won't have them, potentially increasing costs to the health system and insurers.


----------



## bellenuit (29 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A pre existing ailment is a known condition, a genetic test is not a known condition. People who have a genetic pre disposition to a disease do not necessarily develope it.
> 
> As I have said at least twice now, if you  punish people for having genetic tests then people won't have them, potentially increasing costs to the health system and insurers.




But insurance is based on probabilities, so a predisposition to a disease will result in a certain percentage of that population eventually developing it. And if certain conditions result in significant costs to the health insurance industry, then they should have the right to mandate that those wanting health insurance test for those preconditions, if the science now allows it.

The health insurance industry has the right to vet potential clients just like banks and other lenders have the right to vet their potential clients. 

Motor insurance policies now require higher premiums from those living in certain post codes, because statistically those areas have higher car thefts than others. If you park your car on the street rather than a closed garage your premium is also likely to be higher. Just like medical preconditions, where you live or where you park your car doesn't mean it will be stolen, but statistically over the population of insured, there will be more cars stolen from those postcodes or from street parked cars. 

If society deems that unfair, then let society bear the cost of the increased risk through government backed policies or government subsidised policies.


----------



## Tisme (29 August 2017)

bellenuit said:


> But insurance is based on probabilities.




No,  its based on risk and actuarial science. It combines things like risk assessment, probability, mathematics in general, knowledge of business, demographics, lifestyle, risk mitigation, control measures, etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2017)

> If society deems that unfair, then let society bear the cost of the increased risk through government backed policies or government subsidised policies.




Sure, the government should get back into insurance and run it as a not for profit business.


----------



## Value Collector (29 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, the government should get back into insurance and run it as a not for profit business.



You would be surprised by how little underwriting profit the industry makes.

As a whole the insurance industry generally pays out more in claims and expenses than it earns in premiums.

The insurance industry survives on interest it earns on its float.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The insurance industry survives on interest it earns on its float.




And also this interesting piece that Life Insurance companies make money on lapsed policies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wm-scott-page/the-life-insurance-indust_b_1937246.html


----------



## Value Collector (29 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And also this interesting piece that Life Insurance companies make money on lapsed policies.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wm-scott-page/the-life-insurance-indust_b_1937246.html



the insurance business is super competitive, and that keeps profit margins (if there are any), very small, the lapse ratio would already be taken into account, and used to reduce premiums charged.

The important number is the "Combined Ratio"

Thats the figure that tells what percentage of the premiums were paid out as claims and expenses e.g. a number above 100 means more than the total premiums collected were used.

2010 - 101.5%
2011 - 106.5%
2012 - 102.5%
2013 - 96.4%
2014 - 97.4%
2015 - 98.0%
2016 - 99.2%

As you can see on average it is pretty wafer thin margins, especially when you factor in that the later figures tend to get revised upwards over time, because some claims have long term payments,

e.g. the best year there is 2013, but it may not end up looking as good once all the payments add up over the next 20 years, on those longterm claims.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> the insurance business is super competitive, and that keeps profit margins (if there are any), very small, the lapse ratio would already be taken into account, and used to reduce premiums charged.
> 
> The important number is the "Combined Ratio"
> 
> ...




Hardly worth them being in business its it ?


----------



## bellenuit (29 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> No,  its based on risk and actuarial science. It combines things like risk assessment, probability, mathematics in general, knowledge of business, demographics, lifestyle, risk mitigation, control measures, etc.




Yes, as I said, it is based on probabilities.


----------



## Value Collector (29 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Hardly worth them being in business its it ?




As I said, most of them rely on the interest earned on the funds (the float), while they hold them, So any increase or decrease in claims, is passed on to policy holders.

-----------------------

Warren Buffetts company Berkshire Hathaway is one of the biggest Insurance companies in the world, and his primary goal in the insurance business is to generate a large pool of "Float" which he can invest.

If his insurance companies collect $1000 in premiums, but end up paying out 102% in claims and expenses, he looks at it as being able to borrow $1000 at 2% interest.

If its a good year and he only has to pay out 99%, he looks at it as having being paid $10 to borrow the funds at 0% interest.

It's all about holding onto a large pool of float for the insurance companies, and keeping claims as close to the premiums as possible, increasing claims causes increasing premiums.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It's all about holding onto a large pool of float for the insurance companies, and keeping claims as close to the premiums as possible, increasing claims causes increasing premiums.




If the insurance business is on such a knife edge , I wonder if it's a good idea that people rely on corporate entities to provide it, when they could go bust if faced with extraordinary circumstances. Better to have the governments doing it I'd say.


----------



## Value Collector (29 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If the insurance business is on such a knife edge , I wonder if it's a good idea that people rely on corporate entities to provide it, when they could go bust if faced with extraordinary circumstances. Better to have the governments doing it I'd say.




The insurance claims are backed by the float, and then the insurance company has its shareholders capital at stake, and then the insurance companies are generally insured by a reinsurance company, so there are multiple layers of capital backing policies, as long as policies are sold at the correct price, and courts don't force insurance companies into paying settlements on things that weren't covered in the contract, things should be fine.

----------------------------------

Here is warren talking about how low interest rates are forcing the cost of insurance premiums up, because most companies can not earn as much on their float any more, especially in Europe where there are negative interest rates.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 August 2017)

Anyone see the TV program Sex War Robots (SBS)?

I've never seen anything so depressing and frightening!  The whole world is suddenly going to become unrecognizable due to the AI explosion.  That is unless we/it self destructs in a robot war.

Whilst nothing appears to be changing at 'street level', when the street level change _does _appear, things are likely to get hectic in a big way.


----------



## Tisme (5 September 2017)




----------



## bellenuit (15 September 2017)

After 20 years in space and the last 7 spent orbiting Saturn and its moons, Cassini completed its amazing mission just 30 minutes ago when, as planned, it crashed into Saturn. Congratulations NASA.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 September 2017)

Sad to hear the mission has ended. What a great little scientist it was. (Sorry for the anthropomorphism).


----------



## Tisme (25 September 2017)

4 side hydraulics:


----------



## basilio (25 September 2017)

That was a fascinating theory of how the Pyramids were built. Floating the building blocks up a water lift on the side of the pyramids ! I reckon it would be worth just developing such a techology today to see how it would work.
The comments on the You Tube site raise many questions.


----------



## Value Collector (10 October 2017)

I found this fascinating


----------



## cynic (13 November 2017)

It seems that nothing truly lasts forever, not even universal speed limits:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=120095&page=1


----------



## bellenuit (13 November 2017)

cynic said:


> It seems that nothing truly lasts forever, not even universal speed limits:
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=120095&page=1




Interesting....

However, when I came to this part; _This produces an almost identical light pulse that exits the chamber and travels about 60 feet before the main part of the laser pulse finishes entering the chamber;_ my reaction was the same as that stated by one scientist towards the end: _Aephraim Steinberg, a physicist at the University of Toronto, said the light particles coming out of the cesium chamber may not have been the same ones that entered, so he questions whether the speed of light was broken_. 

Still, if these experiments eventually prove that the speed of light is not constant and an absolute limit, it might open up some new breakthroughs in physics, just as Einstein's and others did when they hypothesised and then was subsequently proved that time itself is not constant throughout the universe.


----------



## cynic (13 November 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Interesting....
> 
> However, when I came to this part; _This produces an almost identical light pulse that exits the chamber and travels about 60 feet before the main part of the laser pulse finishes entering the chamber;_ my reaction was the same as that stated by one scientist towards the end: _Aephraim Steinberg, a physicist at the University of Toronto, said the light particles coming out of the cesium chamber may not have been the same ones that entered, so he questions whether the speed of light was broken_.
> 
> Still, if these experiments eventually prove that the speed of light is not constant and an absolute limit, it might open up some new breakthroughs in physics, just as Einstein's and others did when they hypothesised and then was subsequently proved that time itself is not constant throughout the universe.



Anyone familiar with the way electrons flow when an electric potential is applied to a conductor, will likely have gravitated to a similar opinion to Steinberg's. (I happen to share that particular view)

However, this discovery does, at the very least, present a credible challenge to popular conceptions concerning the speed of light and its dependence upon the presence of a conducive medium.

Given the outcome of that experiment, do we truly know the maximum potential speed of a single photon?

Do we truly know that aether doesn't exist?

Edit: Apart from his plagiarisation of Newton's formula for kinetic energy, Einstein's theories were utter rubbish and proved how easy it is to bamboozle otherwise intelligent people, including himself!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (20 November 2017)

Holy ****.  Give it 5-10 years and equip it with next gen arsenal of weapons and it will make Robocop look like a kid's toy.  For real.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 December 2017)

Speaking of genes in another thread, here is how we are going to abolish evolution and design our own.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...-gene-editing-more-accurate-and-safer/9185320


----------



## basilio (22 December 2017)

An opportunty to understand   Carbon 12, 13 and 14 (che ??) and how the changing proportions of these isotopes in the atmosphere are part of the evidence that CC is due to human emissions of greenhouse gases.

--------------------------------
_*Carbon Isotopes Part1 The basics.*

For the average citizen, who perhaps has a rudimentary grasp of general science, one problem with the topic of climate science is that it is such a huge subject which draws on a wealth of knowledge from many different science disciplines. It is easy to get lost in the weeds of this detailed knowledge which informs our conclusion that the current changing climate is due to human emissions of greenhouse gases. The broad strokes of climate science may be grasped with a limited amount of scientific knowledge: carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases absorb and release heat (infrared radiation)...burning fossil fuels releases CO2 into the atmosphere and this increasing amount can be measured...more CO2 in the atmosphere will mean more heat energy in the climate system causing climate to change. But that basic knowledge is grounded on many more complicated lines of evidence: the weeds, which can often be very confusing to the science novice._

https://skepticalscience.com/From-eMail-Bag-Carbon-Isotopes-Part-1.html


----------



## basilio (22 December 2017)

The new generation of life we have created.


----------



## bellenuit (3 January 2018)

I just watched this on Netflix. I can highly recommend it to those who have access:

*The documentary about Google DeepMind's 'AlphaGo' algorithm is now available on Netflix

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...-algorithm-is-now-available-on-netflix-2018-1*


----------



## SirRumpole (22 January 2018)

Microbes can turn your mobile phone into a goldmine (in about 50 years).



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-22/how-your-old-phone-is-a-tiny-gold-mine/9330994


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2018)

I posted this video in the Elon thread, But I thought it should be here to.

Succesful test of the falcon Heavy rocket with 3 of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing successfully to be used again.

Between the 25.00 and 27.30 minute mark you see the landing of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing perfectly.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I posted this video in the Elon thread, But I thought it should be here to.
> 
> Succesful test of the falcon Heavy rocket with 3 of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing successfully to be used again.
> 
> Between the 25.00 and 27.30 minute mark you see the landing of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing perfectly.





An incredible feat for a private company.

That dual booster landing was incredible.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That dual booster landing was incredible.




It's like something from an old thunder birds episode, Hahaha.


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I posted this video in the Elon thread, But I thought it should be here to.
> 
> Succesful test of the falcon Heavy rocket with 3 of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing successfully to be used again.
> 
> Between the 25.00 and 27.30 minute mark you see the landing of the first stage rockets returning to earth and landing perfectly.





 Incredible! Thankyou VC


----------



## bellenuit (8 February 2018)

Great long distance amateur footage of the booster landings.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2018)

Brian Cox on the mysteries of the universe.

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/nightlife/brian-cox/9406668


----------



## Value Collector (10 February 2018)

Under Sea cables transport 99% of the global intercontinental Internet Data.






Cutting one open.



Animated map of the global cable network.



Telstra Corporation is one of the big global owners of under sea cables, Owning or partially owning cables all over the world.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Telstra Corporation is one of the big global owners of under sea cables, Owning or partially owning cables all over the world.




Great, lets run a few to China and use them for internet hacking.


----------



## basilio (10 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Under Sea cables transport 99% of the global intercontinental Internet Data.





That is so cool. Thx !


----------



## basilio (10 February 2018)

Did anyone else check out the high speed camera video ? Again fascinating.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Did anyone else check out the high speed camera video ? Again fascinating.





Yep, that's pretty cool alright !

I don't know who that bloke is but he makes some excellent videos.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Did anyone else check out the high speed camera video ? Again fascinating.




Speaking of slow motion cameras,

This guy use’s a slow motion camera to show exactly how tv’s work,

Quite interesting,


----------



## luutzu (12 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It's like something from an old thunder birds episode, Hahaha.




Not to rain on the parade, but do we know the condition of those returned boosters?

I've seen a doco on the Space Shuttle where some rocket scientist was saying that the sales pitch that won the Shuttle its funding was the cheap, economical, reusable pair of boosters and shuttle.

That you'd just dust them off and they're ready to go again etc.

Reality was that the cost to inspect, fix, repair, tests etc. to get them back on platform ready to take astronauts and hundreds of millions worth of payloads... it's not just dusting it off and ready to go.  Might have been cheaper to just design and manufacturer enmass, use once and thrown out for scraps. 

So I don't know, there are hundreds of thousands of moving parts in these things. Each one must be tested and reviewed to make certain they're safe for relaunch. Not an easy task considering that one reason Columbia [?] blew up was due to just a seal in the booster being too cold and stiffened because the launch day was colder than expected. That alone caused the fuel leak and the disaster.


----------



## bellenuit (13 February 2018)

Happy Birthday Darwin.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Not to rain on the parade, but do we know the condition of those returned boosters?
> 
> I've seen a doco on the Space Shuttle where some rocket scientist was saying that the sales pitch that won the Shuttle its funding was the cheap, economical, reusable pair of boosters and shuttle.
> 
> ...




That rocket was actually using reused parts that had previously been used in another launch.

Space ex is already manufacturing these rockets cheaper than anyone else, and is designing them to be reusable, I am not sure what the limit is, but I guess they will continuously make improvements.

As they say, we wouldn’t have a commercial airline industry if we burned the 747 at the end of each flight.


----------



## bellenuit (13 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> That rocket was actually using reused parts that had previously been used in another launch.
> 
> Space ex is already manufacturing these rockets cheaper than anyone else, and is designing them to be reusable, I am not sure what the limit is, but I guess they will continuously make improvements.
> 
> As they say, we wouldn’t have a commercial airline industry if we burned the 747 at the end of each flight.




Do you know how the booster rockets made their way back to Cape Kennedy (?). I presume they had to reverse direction (as the Falcon Heavy veered off over the ocean shortly after launch) and make their way back under some independent control and using left over fuel.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Do you know how the booster rockets made their way back to Cape Kennedy (?). I presume they had to reverse direction (as the Falcon Heavy veered off over the ocean shortly after launch) and make their way back under some independent control and using left over fuel.




This animation shows it all.

However the stage three that lands on the ocean barge in the animation actually tipped over on the actual launch, and had to be pulled from the sea.


----------



## bellenuit (13 February 2018)

Great, thanks. Answered all my questions. Fantastic achievement.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> This animation shows it all.
> 
> However the stage three that lands on the ocean barge in the animation actually tipped over on the actual launch, and had to be pulled from the sea.





I wonder how long it will be untill they offer joy rides on those boosters.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> That rocket was actually using reused parts that had previously been used in another launch.
> 
> Space ex is already manufacturing these rockets cheaper than anyone else, and is designing them to be reusable, I am not sure what the limit is, but I guess they will continuously make improvements.
> 
> As they say, we wouldn’t have a commercial airline industry if we burned the 747 at the end of each flight.




It looks great and yea, chances are the new tech and all that mean a lot less repair and costly inspection/re-test to relaunch. 

Rockets travel at higher speed, to higher altitude so would need to stand a lot more stress etc. than the typical Boeing. And no, we'd still have commercial airline if we need to replace it after a few trip: re-sell to Third World countries at mate's rate.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> It looks great and yea, chances are the new tech and all that mean a lot less repair and costly inspection/re-test to relaunch.
> 
> Rockets travel at higher speed, to higher altitude so would need to stand a lot more stress etc. than the typical Boeing. And no, we'd still have commercial airline if we need to replace it after a few trip: re-sell to Third World countries at mate's rate.



I mean if the aircraft was single use, we wouldn’t have an airline industry.

Space ex built their rockets from scratch, I am pretty sure what ever drawbacks you can think of they have already thought of and have either solved or are in the process of solving.

One thing that they did say in the book, is that some conventional nasa launches cost up to $1billion, because so much time and effort goes into making them 99.9999% reliable, however Elon pointed out you could do the same launch for $50 Million and get maybe 95% reliability, and when you do lose that 1 out of 20, the savings more than cover the cost of a relaunch and new cargo.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2018)

Elon watching the take off, and then answering some questions.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I mean if the aircraft was single use, we wouldn’t have an airline industry.
> 
> Space ex built their rockets from scratch, I am pretty sure what ever drawbacks you can think of they have already thought of and have either solved or are in the process of solving.
> 
> One thing that they did say in the book, is that some conventional nasa launches cost up to $1billion, because so much time and effort goes into making them 99.9999% reliable, however Elon pointed out you could do the same launch for $50 Million and get maybe 95% reliability, and when you do lose that 1 out of 20, the savings more than cover the cost of a relaunch and new cargo.




Don't know about that 95% reliability though. If it's cargo, yea, maybe. Just don't put that on the brochure if that cargo is more than electronics; and maybe contain astronauts. 

I'm not sure how you could get a 95% reliability to be honest. How would the engineer work that out?

I mean, are all the parts around 95% or some parts must be 100% while others are 90%, others less important 70% etc. 

I know there are tolerances and no need to get it 100% but then how do you fudge the 5% tolerance? Might as well try to get close to 100%. 

Kudos to Musk and his team of geniuses... But i'd go with the folks at NASA. Try to get it 100% and the result might reach maybe 95%.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Don't know about that 95% reliability though. If it's cargo, yea, maybe. Just don't put that on the brochure if that cargo is more than electronics; and maybe contain astronauts.
> 
> I'm not sure how you could get a 95% reliability to be honest. How would the engineer work that out?
> 
> ...




The idea is that simply going for Those last few percentage points of reliability causes you to spend a lot more money with demishing returns, eg adding back up components of the back ups etc.

Off course we are talking about cargo flights, which almost all launches are.

There are reasons to go for reliability sometimes, eg human, and that could be achieved by using the new rockets for humans and older ones for cargo.

But spending an extra $500 Million to reduce the risk of losing a $50million cargo from 1 in 20 to 1 in 1000 doesn’t make sense, unless you are spending the governments money and a spotless carreer is important to you.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2018)

bellenuit said:


> (as the Falcon Heavy veered off over the ocean shortly after launch) .




This video explains why rockets turn and seem to start flying horizontally rather than straight up.

The example of the canon at 25 seconds in explains the principle.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2018)

*Oxford student uses ordinary camera to capture atom in prize-winning photograph*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/atom-photo-taken-with-ordinary-camera/9445288


----------



## bellenuit (14 February 2018)

Although your eyes might tell you differently, these two photos are exactly the same. For instance, the kerbs should appear parallel if the two photos are identical, but to me they seem at slightly different angles.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Although your eyes might tell you differently, these two photos are exactly the same. For instance, the kerbs should appear parallel if the two photos are identical, but to me they seem at slightly different angles.
> 
> View attachment 86281



Yeah that’s weird


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Although your eyes might tell you differently, these two photos are exactly the same. For instance, the kerbs should appear parallel if the two photos are identical, but to me they seem at slightly different angles.
> 
> View attachment 86281




An allegory that even an individual will engage in self conflict to prove him/herself right at the expense conciliation.


----------



## fiftyeight (16 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Under Sea cables transport 99% of the global intercontinental Internet Data.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Seen these vids the other day somewhere else. Blew me away tbh. Had never thought about it before. Seems like the network is vast enough to with stand attach during hostilities/war...

But I wonder if there are enemy states out there that pre-installed some kind of cutting device on enough cables to shut down a continent/country if provoked???


----------



## Country Lad (16 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Under Sea cables transport 99% of the global intercontinental Internet Data.




Well, there you go - the Cloud is actually underwater.  And here I was thinking it was on the servers in Shifty Brothers garage.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)




----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)

Proof I AM the centre of the universe 

Turn sound on


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Proof I AM the centre of the universe




Mind boggling indeed.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 March 2018)

Our Space Agency is on the way.



http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ntdown-for-an-australian-space-agency/9579364

--


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 May 2018)

Blue and black or gold and white?

Yanny or Laurel?

I toggle between both, but not willfully.


----------



## bellenuit (16 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Blue and black or gold and white?
> 
> Yanny or Laurel?
> 
> I toggle between both, but not willfully.




You are missing the link, but I am 'Yanny' all the way. I hear nothing that is in the least like 'Laurel'

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trend...l&ns_source=facebook&ocid=socialflow_facebook


----------



## cynic (22 May 2018)

An interesting discourse on willpower and some common misconceptions:


----------



## Sdajii (22 May 2018)

cynic said:


> An interesting discourse on willpower and some common misconceptions:




Thanks for sharing this, cynic. I think it's some really interesting and valuable information, I really enjoyed it and it does a lot to explain us. A lot of people could benefit greatly from this. I have extreme willpower when I choose to use it, and this has helped me to understand how some people are so lacking in it, and also explained why I have failed in the few times I have. It really resonated with me, thank again!


----------



## Value Collector (22 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Proof I AM the centre of the universe
> 
> Turn sound on





I didn't realise there was stars smaller than Jupiter.

It made me wonder why Jupiter has not turned into a star.


----------



## Value Collector (22 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I didn't realise there was stars smaller than Jupiter.
> 
> It made me wonder why Jupiter has not turned into a star.




So I just looked it up,

Turns out Jupiter would need to be about 80 times its current mass before it turned into a star, however at that mass it would actually be smaller in diameter due to the increased gravity making it more dense.

So yeah, Stars are much heavier than Jupiter, however the smaller stars may look slightly smaller than Jupiter even though they have a lot more mass due to them having more gravity.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> So I just looked it up,
> 
> Turns out Jupiter would need to be about 80 times its current mass before it turned into a star, however at that mass it would actually be smaller in diameter due to the increased gravity making it more dense.
> 
> So yeah, Stars are much heavier than Jupiter, however the smaller stars may look slightly smaller than Jupiter even though they have a lot more mass due to them having more gravity.




Neutron stars are about the size of a city with a mass 1.5 times the sun.

Mind boggling to contemplate.


----------



## Tisme (22 May 2018)

The centre of the milky way is Sagittarius so best view is 30deg south ...good excuse to visit Coffs Harbour


----------



## Craton (23 May 2018)

My good self along with my partner will be attending our local Star Party record making attempt tonight. We broke the record three years ago and plan to do it again!

I encourage all ASF members to take a break from watching charts and screens and get out there to help with the attempt. There are Star Parties happening all across Australia, it is fun and for those short, quiet 10 minutes when the attempt is in progress, you get to contemplate the universe, everything and all that is.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2018)

Alien transmission received ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-23/search-for-aliens-finds-mysterious-radio-signal/9788202


----------



## Sdajii (24 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Alien transmission received ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-23/search-for-aliens-finds-mysterious-radio-signal/9788202




It's bad enough when clickbait is out there, but it's annoying when other people repeat it. No, it's not aliens, they just had nothing interesting going on so wrote a story about the possibility of finding aliens.


----------



## Craton (26 May 2018)

Woohoo! New record has been set.

Was great to be out under the stars, rugged up against the cold, chilly night with my special someone... and all the other loonies.


----------



## Tisme (30 May 2018)




----------



## cynic (30 May 2018)

An interesting discourse by a neuroscientist about the brain's role in translating sensory data when forming perceptions of reality:


----------



## Tisme (31 May 2018)

cynic said:


> An interesting discourse by a neuroscientist about the brain's role in translating sensory data when forming perceptions of reality:





And here was me thinking the imbeciles who fail to put together a cogent position against my arguments had small brains, when in fact all it takes is losing a pinky!


----------



## cynic (31 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> And here was me thinking the imbeciles who fail to put together a cogent position against my arguments had small brains, when in fact all it takes is losing a pinky!



A pinky sized chunk of cerebellum, containing more neural connections than stars in our galaxy!

So smaller brains could indeed explain the phenomena you are observing.


----------



## cynic (31 May 2018)

An interesting opinion piece on Occam's razor:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/08/occams-razor/495332/


----------



## basilio (5 June 2018)

I thought this live map of the wind patterns around the earth is cool.
Check out the storm in West Australia.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#curre...raphic=113.87,-20.55,1106/loc=114.246,-16.166


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2018)

basilio said:


> I thought this live map of the wind patterns around the earth is cool.
> Check out the storm in West Australia.
> https://earth.nullschool.net/#curre...raphic=113.87,-20.55,1106/loc=114.246,-16.166




Yep, that's cool alright.

Nice find bas.


----------



## basilio (6 June 2018)

Science ?  Perhaps more Engineering.

Came across this guy who produces scores of short effective explantions of engineering solutions/issues. 
Worth a look.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 June 2018)

basilio said:


> Science ?  Perhaps more Engineering.
> 
> Came across this guy who produces scores of short effective explantions of engineering solutions/issues.
> Worth a look.





Just to be picky, but the opening shots were of a Hawker Hurricane, not a Spitfire.

Otherwise, a good vid.


----------



## Redbeard (6 June 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I didn't realise there was stars smaller than Jupiter.
> It made me wonder why Jupiter has not turned into a star.




"The last thing you need is a sense of perspective" Hitchhikers GTTG

Jupiter didnt turn into a star because it isnt big enough to collapse and "ignite", a red dwarf would have started out a a cloud planet many many times bigger.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 June 2018)

Methane levels on Mars show seasonal variation.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...-ancient-molecules-odd-methane-levels/9843918


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2018)

Water from dry air.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-09/water-harvesting-from-desert-air/9836908


----------



## Tisme (9 June 2018)

Here you go:


----------



## SirRumpole (11 June 2018)

Sydney professor to get award from Vlad.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...-green-wins-$820k-global-energy-prize/9853372


----------



## basilio (11 June 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Sydney professor to get award from Vlad.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...-green-wins-$820k-global-energy-prize/9853372



Professor Green was an exceptional figure in developing and commercialising solar panels.
He deserves the recognition. I thought it was gracious (and good optics..) to make  such an award to a world citizen.


----------



## cynic (15 June 2018)

Have you ever wondered what might be happening in the physical brain when decisions are made?

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-05-01-how-decisions-form-brain-physical-basis-cognitive-process


----------



## Tisme (15 June 2018)

New business for body snatchers?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...erspec-head-transplant-ethics-1215-story.html


----------



## basilio (21 June 2018)

Brain surgery ? It isn't rocket science.. After all the Incas were pretty good at it.

*South America’s Inca civilization was better at skull surgery than Civil War doctors*

By Lizzie WadeJun. 8, 2018 , 11:00 AM

Cranial surgery without modern anesthesia and antibiotics may sound like a death sentence. But trepanation—the act of drilling, cutting, or scraping a hole in the skull for medical reasons—was practiced for thousands of years from ancient Greece to pre-Columbian Peru. Not every patient survived. But many did, including more than 100 subjects of the Inca Empire. A new study of their skulls and hundreds of others from pre-Columbian Peru suggests the success rates of premodern surgeons there was shockingly high: up to 80% during the Inca era, compared with just 50% during the American Civil War some 400 years later.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...on-was-better-skull-surgery-civil-war-doctors


----------



## Tisme (27 June 2018)

https://www.naturalnews.com/2018-06...lar-system-long-before-humans-came-along.html



> ..................In this paper, Wright makes a mind-boggling assertion that alien civilizations may have lived in our solar system long before us. Then it was _bye-bye, see ya later_ for them. Wright writes that there are certain “technosignatures” that space scientists should be looking for, particularly in ancient Earth, pre-greenhouse Venus, or a wet Mars. He says that while these technosignatures would be incredibly old, there still is a possibility that they can be found..........cont


----------



## Tisme (2 July 2018)

Ancients of the Milky Way:


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Ancients of the Milky Way:
> 
> View attachment 88088




Looks like an ancient milk bottle. A Milky Way alien obviously.


----------



## fiftyeight (14 July 2018)

Starting the indoctrination process early


----------



## explod (30 July 2018)

Can you believe these worms came to life again after being frozen for 42,000 years.
*"Worms frozen in permafrost for up to 42,000 years come back to life*
By The Siberian Times reporter
26 July 2018
Nematodes moving and eating again for the first time since the Pleistocene age in major scientific breakthrough, say experts.





Awake after 42,000 years... Picture: The Siberian Times

The roundworms from two areas of Siberia came back to life in Petri dishes, says a new scientific study. 

‘We have obtained the first data demonstrating the capability of multicellular organisms for longterm cryobiosis in permafrost deposits of the Arctic,’ states a report from Russian scientists from four institutions in collaboration with Princetown University.

Some 300 prehistoric worms were analysed - and two ‘were shown to contain viable nematodes’.

‘After being defrosted, the nematodes showed signs of life,’ said a report today from Yakutia, the area where the worms were found.

‘They started moving and eating.’ "


http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...rost-for-up-to-42000-years-come-back-to-life/


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2018)

News on our space agency.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...-australian-space-agency-can-succeed/10107396


----------



## Tisme (26 August 2018)

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/02/22/gobekli-tepe-noahs-ark-lost-atlantis/

Armenians, Noah, Gobekli Tepe and the big wet.


----------



## Tisme (26 August 2018)




----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2018)

Australian scientists develop the world's most accurate clock.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-02/adelaide-scientists-develop-worlds-most-precise-clock/10192574


----------



## Tisme (12 October 2018)

"A study of hundreds of years of family trees suggests a man's genes play a role in him having sons or daughters. Men inherit a tendency to have more sons or more daughters from their parents. This means that a man with many brothers is more likely to have sons, while a man with many sisters is more likely to have daughters."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211121835.htm


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2018)

Maps of the world:

https://www.farandwide.com/s/what-m..._source=twi&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=268654


----------



## Knobby22 (15 October 2018)

Tisme said:


> "A study of hundreds of years of family trees suggests a man's genes play a role in him having sons or daughters. Men inherit a tendency to have more sons or more daughters from their parents. This means that a man with many brothers is more likely to have sons, while a man with many sisters is more likely to have daughters."
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211121835.htm




My Dad had three brothers and two sisters.
I have two brothers and two sisters.
I have one son and one daughter.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2018)

Might pay to get  yourself  RFID wallet or pouch to store your spare and useful car key.


----------



## basilio (22 October 2018)

*Understanding how ice keeps water cool.

kS Analogy 15 - Ice Tea and Temperature Rise
Posted on 16 October 2018 by Evan, jg
Tag Line*
Even on a hot day, as long as your glass of tea has ice it is a nice, cool drink. Only when the ice disappears does your drink start to warm up.

Elevator Statement
The height of a balloon above the ground is not proportional to the amount of hot air you put into the envelope.1 In fact, when you first start filling a balloon all that happens is that the hot air causes the envelope to lift off of the ground, applying tension to the basket and its occupants, but there is no upward motion of the balloon at that point. You pump in more and more hot air, and if select US Senators were standing by they would likely proclaim that there is absolutely no effect of hot air on the balloon. 

The problem, of course, is that a huge amount of hot air must be injected into the balloon just to overcome the weight of the envelope, the basket, and its occupants. As long as the upward force is less than the downward, restraining force, nothing happens. But once the upward force overcomes the downward force, up you go, and any small addition of hot air2 at this point causes you to accelerate faster and faster skyward.

Ever wonder why you put ice cubes into your water and not cold rocks? The difference between ice and rocks is that the temperature of a cold rock will slowly increase along with the liquid it is trying to keep cold, and will do no better keeping the liquid cool than the cool liquid itself. Cold rocks do nothing to keep your drink cool.

However, ice is effective because as long as there is ice in your glass, the combination of ice and tea will stay near 0°C. As soon as the ice melts and is completely gone the temperature of your tea starts to rise, and soon your drink becomes warm and tasteless. We have all used ice in our drinks, but likely without ever realizing that the reason for using ice is that by definition, the temperature of ice cannot rise above 0°C, whereas a cold rock will easily warm up past 0°C. So if there is ice in your glass, it stabilizes the temperature to near 0°C. Read on in the next section to learn about the property of ice that keeps your ice tea near 0°C.

In the last 40 years we’ve lost about 50% of the Arctic ice area and about 70% of the volume.3 Time to ask Earth’s bartender for more ice for our drink, lest the temperature of the Arctic becomes too warm.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/SkS_Analogy_15_Ice_Tea_Temperature_Rise.html


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## basilio (24 October 2018)

*A Climate Catastrophe Paved the Way for the Dinosaurs’ Reign*
“The need to understand strange events like the Carnian Pluvial Episode has taken on new urgency."

In Italy, the dawn of the greatest empire in the history of the world is marked, not by broken marble pediments strewn across the seven hills of Rome, but modest three-toed footprints pressed into rocks far to the north, high in the Italian Alps. They were left by coastal dinosaurs patrolling the tidal flats of a tropical lagoon over 230 million years ago, and they’re among the earliest in Earth’s history. Perhaps more remarkable, though, than this sudden appearance of dinosaurs in ancient Europe, are the strange rocks which host them. The legendary reptile trackways appear just above crumbling bands of red clay that cut through the cream-colored peaks of the Dolomites—a striking dash in the strata that marks one of the most bizarre climate events ever.

Almost a quarter-billion years ago, rains soaked the arid wastes of the supercontinent Pangaea for more than a million years. When the floodwaters retreated, a new world was born.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/10/dinosaurs-dolomites/573286/


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## basilio (24 October 2018)

*Did a GIANT ASTEROID  destroy the dinosours ? 
*
In the past 35 years science came to the conclusion that a giant asteroid hit Mexico 66 Million years ago and threw up a cloud of dust as well as catastrophic impact effects that caused the near immediate extinction of most of life on earth.
*
But what if this theory is wrong ? *This is a fascinating story*.*

*The Nastiest Feud in Science*
A Princeton geologist has endured decades of ridicule for arguing that the fifth extinction was caused not by an asteroid but by a series of colossal volcanic eruptions. But she’s reopened that debate.

Gerta Keller was waiting for me at the Mumbai airport so we could catch a flight to Hyderabad and go hunt rocks. “You won’t die,” she told me cheerfully as soon as I’d said hello. “I’ll bring you back.”

Death was not something I’d considered as a possible consequence of traveling with Keller, a 73-year-old paleontology and geology professor at Princeton University. She looked harmless enough: thin, with a blunt bob, wearing gray nylon pants and hiking boots, and carrying an insulated ShopRite supermarket bag by way of a purse.

I quickly learned that Keller felt such reassurances were necessary because, appropriately for someone who studies mass extinctions, she has a tendency to attract disaster. Long before our 90-minute flight touched down, she’d told me about having narrowly escaped death four times—once while attempting suicide, once from hepatitis contracted during an Algerian coup, once from getting shot in a robbery gone wrong, and once from food poisoning in India—and this was by no means an exhaustive list. She has crisscrossed dozens of countries doing field research and can claim near-death experiences in many of them: with a jaguar in Belize, a boa in Madagascar, a mob in Haiti, an uprising in Mexico.*

Keller had vowed not to return to India after the food-poisoning debacle. But, never one to avoid calamity, she’d traveled to Mumbai—and gotten sick before her plane had even landed; an in-flight meal had left her retching. Keller was in India to research a catastrophe that has consumed her for the past 30 years: the annihilation of three-quarters of the Earth’s species—including, famously, the dinosaurs—during our planet’s most recent mass extinction, about 66 million years ago. She would be joined in Hyderabad by three collaborators: the geologists Thierry Adatte, from the University of Lausanne; Syed Khadri, from Sant Gadge Baba Amravati University, in central India; and Mike Eddy, also from Princeton. They picked us up at the airport in a seat-belt-less van manned by a driver who looked barely out of his teens, and we began the five-hour drive to our hotel in a town so remote, I hadn’t confidently located it on a map.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/dinosaur-extinction-debate/565769/


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## Darc Knight (24 October 2018)

Cliffs pls Bas


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## basilio (19 November 2018)

How good science works. 
*Scientists acknowledge key errors in study of how fast the oceans are warming*

A major study claimed the oceans were warming much faster than previously thought. But researchers now say they can’t necessarily make that claim.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/ener...st-oceans-are-warming/?utm_term=.8c0aeadc8bb8


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## basilio (8 December 2018)

Understanding the Great Extinction of 252Million  years ago.

*When a Killer Climate Catastrophe Struck the World's Oceans*
The worst extinction in Earth’s history offers chilling predictions for the planet’s future—and for humanity’s efforts to keep climate doom at bay.

Identifying a killer can be difficult when it seems like every murder weapon imaginable has been used in the crime, and when the victim is the entire planet. About 252 million years ago, a rich and wonderful world was annihilated in the worst mass extinction ever: the end-Permian, a catastrophe with no close competitor in Earth’s history. Volcanoes of a truly preposterous scale erupted in Siberia over many thousands of years, loosing all manner of chaos on the world. Rounding up, everything died.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/12/oxygen-loss-during-mass-extinction/577537/


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## basilio (8 December 2018)

More research on past oxygen starvation in the worlds oceans
*A Foreboding Similarity in Today’s Oceans and a 94-Million-Year-Old Catastrophe*
The ocean is suffocating—but not for the first time.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/01/suffocating-oceans/550415/

*Burning Fossil Fuels Almost Ended All Life on Earth*
A road trip through the geological ruins of our planet's worst mass extinction.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/07/a-road-trip-to-the-end-of-the-world/532914/


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## basilio (12 January 2019)

*Understanding the worlds climate through ice cores. *Great pics, great story


* A frozen history of climate change – in pictures *
Scientists at EastGrip are examining ice from as far back as the last ice age. Photograph: Anna Filipova

Shares
242

Buried deep under the Greenland ice sheet is a unique archive of life on Earth 40,000 years ago. Scientists are using this information to try to predict future changes to the planet

Photographs by Anna Filipova

Fri 11 Jan 2019 18.30 AEDT 

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...limate-change-greenland-ice-sheet-in-pictures


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## Darc Knight (13 January 2019)

Check out U.S. Navy's latest Destroyer U.S.S. Zumwalt: 182m long, with stealh capabilities so she looks like a small fishing boat on radar








Interesting to note that the famed "Boomer" submarines seem to be being phased out and the use of Nuclear reactors on Submarines makes their stealth abilities problematic, making our deisel tubs handy little things @sptrawler 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Zumwalt


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## luutzu (13 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> Check out U.S. Navy's latest Destroyer U.S.S. Zumwalt: 182m long, with stealh capabilities so she looks like a small fishing boat on radar
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So... lots of fishing boats will better be careful lest they get blown out of the water?


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## Darc Knight (13 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> So... lots of fishing boats will better be careful lest they get blown out of the water?




Yea, you're in a fleet of other fishing boats and this thing casually tries to "mingle in" you'd be getting the hell outta there quick smart


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## Xendragon (14 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> Check out U.S. Navy's latest Destroyer U.S.S. Zumwalt: 182m long, with stealh capabilities so she looks like a small fishing boat on radar
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its a pity they cant afford projectiles for the advanced guns on this thing. It still has plenty of missile fire power though. Maybe they will pull the guns out and fit something else eventually.


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## Ann (21 January 2019)

Not exactly sure where this should be dropped but here is probably as good as anywhere. 

I read a great book called "Bad Pharma" by Ben Goldacre, and also worked for a couple of drug companies as a detailer way back, so this comes as no surprise.

* Physician-targeted marketing is associated with more opioid overdose deaths, new study finds *

By Sarah Toy
Published: Jan 20, 2019 12:26 p.m. ET

_*Number of payments to doctors is the thing most associated with opioid-related overdose deaths, more so than the amount paid *
Opioid-related overdose deaths are higher in areas of the country where there’s increased marketing of opioid products to physicians, highlighting the role the pharmaceutical industry plays in the opioid epidemic. 


A new study found that both deaths from opioid overdose and opioid prescriptions rose in areas of the country where physicians received more opioid-related marketing from pharmaceutical companies, such as consulting fees and free meals, according to an analysis of national data from 2013 to 2015 published in JAMA Network Open. Researchers looked at pharmaceutical marketing information from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Open Payments database, linking it with data on county-level opioid prescribing and overdose deaths from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention databases. 


Interestingly, researchers found the number of payments to doctors in an area had the greatest association with prescription numbers and opioid-related overdose deaths, more so than even the amount paid. Areas with a higher number of payments per capita saw increased opioid prescribing rates and more opioid-related overdose deaths. 


For every three additional payments made to physicians per 100,000 people in a county, opioid-related overdose deaths were 18% higher, the study found.  _More......
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/p...s-new-study-finds-2019-01-18?siteid=rss&rss=1


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## basilio (21 January 2019)

Great find Ann. Agree with you about being unsure where to drop it. Maybe a thread about the role of Big Pharma ?


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## Ann (21 January 2019)

basilio said:


> Great find Ann. Agree with you about being unsure where to drop it. Maybe a thread about the role of Big Pharma ?



Not sure there would be enough for a thread nor am I interested Bas. The article quotes research statistics, that is why it landed in the science thread.  I could get into a discussion about statins their efficasy/side effects/over prescriptions/dodgy science but then I would be harangued as a 'statin denier' added to that it holds no interest for me, there is little or nothing further for me to learn. I am over bloody doctors and pharmaceutical drugs I learned years ago from the close professional contact I had with doctors as a medical detailer, never ever to take anything they suggest other than for an immediate short term remedy. They are rewarded for their product support in greater and lesser degrees by the pharmaceutical companies.


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## qldfrog (22 January 2019)

statin denier?
You mean like showing a whole country like scotland having the same frequency of heart arest before and after the use of statins decreases cholesterol levels
To put oil on the fire, cholesterol is to heart attack what CO2 is to global earming, a consequence.
A healthy body has low choresterol and also..(not so)..low heart issues


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## qldfrog (22 January 2019)

Note.i do not say global warming creates
 co2..just that creating co2 often adds to global warming


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## Ann (22 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> statin denier?
> You mean like showing a whole country like scotland having the same frequency of heart arest before and after the use of statins decreases cholesterol levels
> To put oil on the fire, cholesterol is to heart attack what CO2 is to global earming, a consequence.
> A healthy body has low choresterol and also..(not so)..low heart issues



I wasn't having a go at Bas about being called a 'statin denier' it is a real term and they are adopting the same tactics as is proving so succesful for the GW political lobby. Create fear and confusion, fear alone will make people compliant. Check out the link....
https://www.csicop.org/si/show/statin_denialism


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## qldfrog (22 January 2019)

No misunderstanding here Ann,
Nor was it a peak at Basilio
Just liked the Denier analogy in the brushing off any counter argument in front of ideology based propaganda fed conviction.


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## qldfrog (22 January 2019)

Interesting article in your link.
Nevertheless mentioned that between 70 and 250 people have to take statins for life to no use for one who will benefit.and maybe as a side effect which could be gained with aspirin for example.
My position on statins was confurmed by the abc catalyst report which was aired a while back.i can not access abc sites as i am in china now nor can i google but if anyone is interested, it is worthwhile watching
Hope it help,reduce stress and blood pressure,be active eat healthy and tgat will be much better fir you than popping a statin daily.
Not easier and less money for pharmas i know


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## Ann (22 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Interesting article in your link.
> Nevertheless mentioned that between 70 and 250 people have to take statins for life to no use for one who will benefit.and maybe as a side effect which could be gained with aspirin for example.
> My position on statins was confurmed by the abc catalyst report which was aired a while back.i can not access abc sites as i am in china now nor can i google but if anyone is interested, it is worthwhile watching
> Hope it help,reduce stress and blood pressure,be active eat healthy and tgat will be much better fir you than popping a statin daily.
> Not easier and less money for pharmas i know




I saw that show as well, the whole might of the Pharmaceutical industry came down on the ABC and they withered. This is the sort of massive attacks whistleblowers have to cope with. It is a brave man or group who will stand up to the massive power of the $B backed machine.

https://ama.com.au/ausmed/abc-dumps-controversial-statins-program


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## Ann (22 January 2019)

This discussion is starting to drag this thread off Topic. I will start another thread later. I have thought of a good topic just need to decide on a title.


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## Ann (22 January 2019)

...and back to more science related subjects.

I have just started reading The Weather Makers by Tim Flannery.

He made mention of glaciers in New Guinea. I had never imagined such a tropical area could have still been supporting glaciers from the 'little ice-age.' From 1500 years ago, according to Lonnie G. Thompson, Research Scientist, Byrd Polar and Climate Research Center, University Professor, School of Earth Sciences. The Ohio State University..

I have a couple of photos side by side.
The ones with the most glaciers was taken in November 1988 and the other was taken in December 2017.

That purple coloured round object in the recent photo is a massive copper mine called the Grasberg Mine. I cannot imagine why anyone would be allowed to mine virtually on top of an ancient relic of such major importance. Imagine the damage they have done to those glaciers with all the blasting, drilling heavy vehicular traffic. It must have shattered some of the glaciers with this sort of concussion. How could this have ever been allowed? Money, everything has a price.
_

The *Grasberg mine* is the largest gold mine and the second largest copper mine in the world.[1][2] It is located in the province of Papua in Indonesia near Puncak Jaya, the highest mountain in Papua. It has 19,500 employees. It is mostly owned by Freeport-McMoRan (FCX)_

_The icefields around Puncak Jaya are rare. You won’t find glacial ice for another 4,500 kilometers (2,800 miles) to the north on Japan’s Mount Tate, which lies outside the tropics where glacial ice is more common. Within the tropics, the closest glacial ice can be found 11,200 kilometers (6,900 miles) away on Mount Kenya in Africa. Like tropical glaciers elsewhere in the world, the glaciers on the slopes around Puncak Jaya have been shrinking and scientists estimate they could be gone within about a decade.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/91716/glaciers-in-the-tropics-but-not-for-long




_


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## basilio (24 January 2019)

Good find Ann. Your right about the willingness of mining interest to do anything in pursuit of a buck. One of the outcomes of this process in New Guinea was the OK Tedi mining disaster.

*Ok Tedi environmental disaster*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search




Ok Tedi mine
The *Ok Tedi environmental disaster* caused severe harm to the environment along 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) of the Ok Tedi River and the Fly River in the Western Province of Papua New Guinea between about 1984 and 2013. The lives of 50,000 people have been disrupted. One of the worst environmental disasters caused by humans, it is a consequence of the discharge of about two billion tons of untreated mining waste into the Ok Tedi from the Ok Tedi Mine, an open pit mine in the Western Province of Papua New Guinea.

This mining pollution, caused by the collapse of the Ok Tedi tailings dam system in 1984 and consequent switch to riverine disposal (disposal of tailings directly into the river) for several decades, was the subject of class action litigation, naming Ok Tedi Mining Limited and BHP Billiton and brought by local landowners. Villagers downstream from Ok Tedi in the Fly River system in the Middle Fly District and the southern and central areas of the North Fly District, in particular, believe that the effect on their livelihood from this disaster far outweighs the benefits they have received from the mine's presence in their area. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ok_Tedi_environmental_disaster


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## basilio (24 January 2019)

This is a fascinating gooey story. Learnt lots..

*No One Is Prepared for Hagfish Slime*
It expands by 10,000 times in a fraction of a second, it’s 100,000 times softer than Jell-O, and it fends off sharks and Priuses alike.

Ed Yong  11:46 AM ET




A car is covered in hagfish, and slime, after an accident on Highway 101.Reuters

 Share
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At first glance, the hagfish—a sinuous, tubular animal with pink-grey skin and a paddle-shaped tail—looks very much like an eel. Naturalists can tell the two apart because hagfish, unlike other fish, lack backbones (and, also, jaws). For everyone else, there’s an even easier method. “Look at the hand holding the fish,” the marine biologist Andrew Thaler once noted. “Is it completely covered in slime? Then, it’s a hagfish.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/hagfish-slime/581002/
http://www.southernfriedscience.com...rushed-by-hagfish-frequently-asked-questions/


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## Ann (24 January 2019)

This is posted elsewhere but felt it was interesting enough to be repeated on the science thread.

*Antarctic Sea Ice Reaches New Maximum Extent*

_Two weeks after a new record was set in the Arctic Ocean for the least amount of sea ice coverage in the satellite record, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum—and set a record for a new high. Sea ice extended over 19.44 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) in 2012, according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC). The previous record of 19.39 million kilometers (7.49 million square miles) was set in 2006.

_


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## basilio (15 March 2019)

Just for fun. This is worth a read.
*Top 10 Intriguing Things That Make Ice Incredible*
https://listverse.com/2019/03/13/top-10-intriguing-things-that-make-ice-incredible/


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## basilio (24 March 2019)

Ever wanted to understand why trains just can't go up hills ? Interesting and clever


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## SirRumpole (30 June 2019)

Great news for our rocket scientists.

Sydney uni team wins international competition in US.

Let's hope there are jobs here for them otherwise they will go elsewhere.

https://sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/...ketry-team-wins-at-spaceport-america-cup.html


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## basilio (12 July 2019)

I thought this latest example of how fast Artificial Intelligence is moving is fascinating  and scary.

There are now relatively simple computers and programs that have learnt to play Texas holdem *and beat the best human players in the world.  *Strategy, bluff, probability , incomplete information. 

The program teaches itself and then goes out and thrashes the best human players in the world.

 
*My poker face: AI wins multiplayer game for first time *
Pluribus wins 12-day session of Texas hold’em against some of the world’s best human players

Ian Sample Science editor

 
 @iansample 
Thu 11 Jul 2019 19.00 BST   Last modified on Thu 11 Jul 2019 19.55 BST


 
Shares
31

 
Stressful hand … a player gets a message during the first day of the World Series of Poker in Las Vegas last week. Photograph: John Locher/AP
Rack up another win for the machines. An artificial intelligence called Pluribus has emerged victorious from a marathon 12-day poker session during which it played five human professionals at a time.

Over 10,000 hands of no-limit Texas hold’em, the most popular form of the game, Pluribus won a virtual $48,000 (£38,000), beating five elite players who were selected each day from a pool who agreed to take on the program. All of the pros had previously won more than $1m playing the game.

What counts as a beating for humanity ranks as a milestone for AI. No computer program has ever achieved superhuman performance against multiple poker players. A forerunner of Pluribus named Libratus made its name two years ago by trouncing top human players, but that program only played one-on-one.

“It’s the first time AI has achieved superhuman performance in a multiplayer game,” said Tuomas Sandholm, who developed Pluribus with his PhD student Noam Brown at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. The ability to beat five players at a time in such a complex game of bluff and hidden information opened up new opportunities for AI to tackle real world problems, he said.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...ayer-game-for-first-time-plurius-texas-holdem


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## SirRumpole (12 July 2019)

If you like that bas, get a load of this.

_For the first time, scientists have used artificial intelligence to create complex, three-dimensional simulations of the Universe. It's called the Deep Density Displacement Model, or D3M, and it's so fast and so accurate that the astrophysicists who designed it don't even know how it does what it does._

https://www.sciencealert.com/ai-sim...t-even-its-creators-know-how-it-s-so-accurate


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## basilio (12 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> If you like that bas, get a load of this.
> 
> _For the first time, scientists have used artificial intelligence to create complex, three-dimensional simulations of the Universe. It's called the Deep Density Displacement Model, or D3M, and it's so fast and so accurate that the astrophysicists who designed it don't even know how it does what it does._
> 
> https://www.sciencealert.com/ai-sim...t-even-its-creators-know-how-it-s-so-accurate




*Fharque! *That is scary. The genie is well an truly out of the bottle.
I wonder what the computer would show for the fate of the earth if it was fed in the parameters around global warming ?


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## SirRumpole (12 July 2019)

basilio said:


> I wonder what the computer would show for the fate of the earth if it was fed in the parameters around global warming ?




It would probably self destruct.


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## SirRumpole (3 August 2019)

Ever thought the Universe was warped ?

Our galaxy certainly is.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...d-map-of-milky-way-shows-warped-shape-cepheid


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## basilio (25 August 2019)

Came across more info on AlphaZero.  This is the new computing system that basically teaches itself. 
Essentially it was given the rules of chess and with no other input became the best chess player in the world* in under a day.* That is how long it took to keep playing chess games against itself and create a system that would overwhelm other computers as well any mere human.

Disturbing story on the power of  AI.

*AlphaZero: Shedding new light on chess, shogi, and Go *

In late 2017 we introduced AlphaZero, a single system that taught itself from scratch how to master the games of chess, shogi (Japanese chess), and Go, beating a world-champion program in each case. We were excited by the preliminary results and thrilled to see the response from members of the chess community, who saw in AlphaZero’s games a ground-breaking, highly dynamic and “unconventional” style of play that differed from any chess playing engine that came before it.

https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphazero-shedding-new-light-grand-games-chess-shogi-and-go


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## SirRumpole (25 August 2019)

basilio said:


> Came across more info on AlphaZero.  This is the new computing system that basically teaches itself.
> Essentially it was given the rules of chess and with no other input became the best chess player in the world* in under a day.* That is how long it took to keep playing chess games against itself and create a system that would overwhelm other computers as well any mere human.
> 
> Disturbing story on the power of  AI.
> ...




Very interesting.

I think that future military tactics may be decide by such algorithms.

God help us.


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## basilio (30 August 2019)

*The first recorded automobile fatality happened in 1869 in Ireland. *
The victim was a women scientist who was also raising 8 children mostly on her own.
Fascinating story on many levels.

*The First Fatal Car Crash*
Mary Ward, a naturalist and astronomer, decided to go for a ride in her cousin’s homemade automobile.

Sam Kean  7:00 AM ET









An 1860s Rickets steam carriage, akin to the car that Mary Ward fell from.National Motor Museum / Getty

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...-scientist-was-first-car-crash-victim/597037/


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## qldfrog (18 September 2019)

Interesting
https://interestingengineering.com/...that-generates-renewable-electricity-at-night


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## qldfrog (23 September 2019)

Interesting way to store energy
In Chinese
https://m.igetget.com/share/course/article?id=5Yejy8dqoQD9JoQQZxKR1r0xpgmWk3&from=timeline
I try to find an english site but you can auto translate in google


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## qldfrog (23 September 2019)

Here it ishttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw1uaAuQiYCwuCtZq3gZxcYa&ampcf=1
I might have missed it before but @Smurf and @SirRumpole may be interested


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

The slip rate along the San Andreas earthquake fault ranges from 20 to 35 mm /yr. producing 4.7 terra zeta szuahgq of energy.  A steel bar attached to one side slides along another on the far side at slight angle and which is about 239 m. long or a bit more. This bar bends slightly and the energy is released to light 12386 houses.


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## SirRumpole (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> The slip rate along the San Andreas earthquake fault ranges from 20 to 35 mm /yr. producing 4.7 terra zeta szuahgq of energy.  A steel bar attached to one side slides along another on the far side at slight angle and which is about 239 m. long or a bit more. This bar bends slightly and the energy is released to light 12386 houses.




Can you provide a link to that ?


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

Absolutely , but high tensile strength obviously.
*Welded Chains | Steel | Coil | Machine | Passing Link | Proof ...*

https://www.chain-cable.com › Chain Cable › Welded Chains
 passing link welded chains, . ... For an even faster response time, call us at 847-808-8885.
*San Andreas Fault - Wikipedia*

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › San_Andreas_Fault


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## basilio (25 September 2019)

Energy Vault concept. Intriguing

https://energyvault.com/


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

Australian driverless truck technology may be used in NASA Mars mission.

Our Space Agency on the move ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...-trucks-driving-australias-moon-race/11539914


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## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Australian driverless truck technology may be used in NASA Mars mission.
> 
> Our Space Agency on the move ?
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...-trucks-driving-australias-moon-race/11539914




I still more excited about our driverless trucks moving Iron Ore, HAHA


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## qldfrog (1 October 2019)

Maybe not the ideal location
This is an answer to the suggestion of throwing money to build up an ev industry and my thinking it can not work here



SirRumpole said:


> NASA ?



Can you compare the US business ecosystem to us?
Tax rate, red tape, green tape, work legislation, minimum wage,tax code complexity,etc
Look at the state of NASA now after years of socialisation/europeanisation of the US society.
They have to borrow Russian rockets to even send supplies to the ISS
People blame budget cut, their 2020 budget is 22 billions USD and they still benefit of trillions invested in military expenses
They became old tired administrative
Military R and D creates a fertile environment for advances: jobs for uni graduates, critical mass etc
But we are becoming the world biggest importer of weapons (ABC yesterday)
Do we think the Boston Dynamics robots are going to work in factories?

This is pretty scary actually....

Leaders yes and reflection of military expenses yes,we may not want and anyway can not afford
We have to start nimble but throwing money is rarely the way to go
I could write for ages how the system works here in Australia,
 how i devised 3 apps/ softwares  and 
How the "system" limited crashed them
One is still used by a corporate giant  but not spread: corporate giant fear of competition ,monopoly, impossibility of getting research funding or bank founding to start a standalone business
That is number one
Second was health related: you know the saving lives...no one touch it because of liability potential: better let people die than saving some in case it may not work a few percent of case: western system of suing and blaming
3rd one was offering a cheap option in competition with a not for profit tax funded organisation
$50 vs $2000.who do you think win?
So if i build an app to help refugees in women shelters to reduce their greenhouse gas emission and explore their sexual diversity, i can guarantee grants and money flowing, but for a life or technology affecting work, good luck if you are not in #trend
My last (and this will be the last) work is now China owned and world patent pending ..
But the startup there was running in an environment which can not be compared with us here in Australia, and this is why we do not have an Australian office/branch..nor of course factory
I commuted with china for 1.5 year..welcome CO2..
I have the feeling we need anasty shock if we are to ever change and produce proper science here, or we will just carry on our slow Argentina-tion


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2019)

The slime is back !

A blob that has no brain but can learn and communicate.

Is it a real fun guy ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-17/paris-zoo-unveils-blob-organism-with-720-sexes/11610804


----------



## wayneL (13 January 2020)

This ertainly gels with my three decade-long experiences with equine exercise physiology and nutrition.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2020)

wayneL said:


> This ertainly gels with my three decade-long experiences with equine exercise physiology and nutrition.





In that case he should state which studies are false and back it up with evidence.

This is like saying "50% of police are corrupt". It's easy to say but a lot harder to prove.


----------



## wayneL (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case he should state which studies are false and back it up with evidence.
> 
> This is like saying "50% of police are corrupt". It's easy to say but a lot harder to prove.



My experience, anecdotal of course is that is more like 85%. But I can't prove that objectively.

There is however, a well-known crisis of repetitionin the scientific process in many Fields.


----------



## qldfrog (14 January 2020)

A few articles i read are pointing to a fact which makes a lot of sense:
As we all know, magnetic poles are moving rapidly lately..has happened before and will happen again
But there are multiple side effects quite logical, a change of magnetic pole location will have significant effect on magma flows known to be mostly iron, and by changing flows,, we can expect an increase /changes of earthquake and volcanic activity, with thinking about it potentially some volcanos turning live again while others would die
I do not think this should draw much polemics but sure people will get angry anyway
Another personal twist is: if poles changes then radiation exposition do too, as different areas of earth will be subject to different level of protection from our magnetic field
If these high energy  particles and light waves hit open sea instead of ice or land, can we not expect some effects: be it skin cancers, plancton growth,even overall thermal balance..aka global warming or cooling?


----------



## basilio (14 January 2020)

That was an interesting story Wayne quoted.
For the record it is worth checking out the original paper.

In medical research there is always a challenge to ensure research around drugs is valid. Big Pharma takes a very close interest in ensuring its interests are served .

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(15)60696-1.pdf 
Comment1380 www.thelancet.comVol 385 April 11, 2015View Pictures/UIG via Getty ImagesRichard HortonOffl ine: What is medicine’s 5 sigma?


----------



## basilio (17 January 2020)

I'm sure  a number of  posters would be aware of the double split physics experiment which opened the door to quantum physics.

But if you havn't seen/heard of it or want to refresh your memory and its implications this 5 min explainer is well worth a look see.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 January 2020)

basilio said:


> I'm sure  a number of  posters would be aware of the double split physics experiment which opened the door to quantum physics.
> 
> But if you havn't seen/heard of it or want to refresh your memory and its implications this 5 min explainer is well worth a look see.





Weird.

But fascinating.


----------



## qldfrog (17 January 2020)

ni


basilio said:


> I'm sure  a number of  posters would be aware of the double split physics experiment which opened the door to quantum physics.
> 
> But if you havn't seen/heard of it or want to refresh your memory and its implications this 5 min explainer is well worth a look see.




Nice one, as to be honest, I remember the experience name and I saw it/have vague recollections yet can not even remember the concept. good refresher @basilio


----------



## bellenuit (17 January 2020)

I've just finished reading this, which I think is one of the best and entertaining explanations of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity as it relates to time travel. It clearly explains why time travel (into the future) is not just some mathematical abstraction but will someday be possible when we have the means to reach the speeds necessary to notice material differences in the elapse of time as witnessed by different observers. Even today, technology such as GPS requires that minute differences in elapsed time due to the speed of satellites in orbit needs to be taken into account, otherwise the positioning of tracking devices on earth would be out by many metres.

The book is described as being written for intellectually curious people and does not require any math beyond junior high school level (Pythagorus' theorem is about as advanced as it gets). In fact the book goes out of its way to avoid mathematical formulae, which are kept to footnotes for those who are interested in such stuff. 

I haven't seen it in bookstores, but the person who gave it to me said it is available on Amazon (you may have to access the US site) in hardback and Kindle soft copy formats.


----------



## qldfrog (18 January 2020)

More technology than science :
Merging diesel efficiency with petrol responsiveness
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/40725ac89fd8117367beeffe38444abf


----------



## IFocus (18 January 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I've just finished reading this, which I think is one of the best and entertaining explanations of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity as it relates to time travel. It clearly explains why time travel (into the future) is not just some mathematical abstraction but will someday be possible when we have the means to reach the speeds necessary to notice material differences in the elapse of time as witnessed by different observers. Even today, technology such as GPS requires that minute differences in elapsed time due to the speed of satellites in orbit needs to be taken into account, otherwise the positioning of tracking devices on earth would be out by many metres.
> 
> The book is described as being written for intellectually curious people and does not require any math beyond junior high school level (Pythagorus' theorem is about as advanced as it gets). In fact the book goes out of its way to avoid mathematical formulae, which are kept to footnotes for those who are interested in such stuff.
> 
> ...




Thanks bellenuit $15 Amazon out of the UK


----------



## basilio (22 January 2020)

As  a follow up to the double slit experiment consider this video - and in particular the conclusion.


----------



## basilio (22 January 2020)

So.  Does consciousness create reality?


----------



## macca (30 January 2020)

Today is the day....................

Astronomers are keeping a close eye on two satellites they fear could collide on Thursday morning, potentially littering an already crowded sky with dangerous space junk.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...t/news-story/514c1c9f2b728f79939d1090ed54a089


----------



## IFocus (13 February 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I've just finished reading this, which I think is one of the best and entertaining explanations of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity as it relates to time travel. It clearly explains why time travel (into the future) is not just some mathematical abstraction but will someday be possible when we have the means to reach the speeds necessary to notice material differences in the elapse of time as witnessed by different observers. Even today, technology such as GPS requires that minute differences in elapsed time due to the speed of satellites in orbit needs to be taken into account, otherwise the positioning of tracking devices on earth would be out by many metres.
> 
> The book is described as being written for intellectually curious people and does not require any math beyond junior high school level (Pythagorus' theorem is about as advanced as it gets). In fact the book goes out of its way to avoid mathematical formulae, which are kept to footnotes for those who are interested in such stuff.
> 
> ...




I am sure I ordered this book but ended up with "The Order of Time" by Carlo Rovelli which completely destroyed my understanding of time.


BTW you are all just events.


----------



## bellenuit (15 February 2020)

Douglas Hofstadter, the author of _Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid_ is 75 today. A great book that I have attempted to fully read many times but failed. The book explores common themes in the lives and works of logician Kurt Gödel, artist M. C. Escher, and composer Johann Sebastian Bach. The book expounds concepts fundamental to mathematics, symmetry, and intelligence. It won a Pulitzer prize for General Non-Fiction.

An interesting conundrum/paradox in the book, which I hadn't encountered before, but came across today is:

*How many errors do you see in the sentence below? 
"This sentense has three erors."*

It seems obvious, then not so obvious as you think more about it.


----------



## bellenuit (16 February 2020)

Actually on further consideration, it really is just a variation of the paradoxical statement:

*This statement is false.*


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2020)

Is the Universe hanging on a string ?

https://www.space.com/more-universe-dimensions-for-string-theory.html


----------



## Joules MM1 (17 April 2020)




----------



## basilio (22 April 2020)

Thought this was great..


----------



## Joules MM1 (4 May 2020)

The New York TimesVerified account @*nytimes*  May 2, 2020 

New data from space is providing the most precise picture yet of Antarctica’s ice, where it is accumulating most quickly and disappearing at the fastest rate, and how the changes could contribute to rising sea levels.

*A satellite lets scientists see Antarctica’s melting like never before*
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...climate-change.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

excerpt:
ICESat-2, he said, “reveals the process of change, and without understanding those processes you have no ability to make predictions.”

“It really just gives us this incredibly crisp, unified picture.”


----------



## basilio (5 May 2020)

An excellent overview by Dr Anthony Fauci on the how scientists establish the origin of the COVID 19 virus.
Also offers sound advice on deciding what sources should be trusted in this  contested discussion

*Fauci: No scientific evidence the coronavirus was made in a Chinese lab*
In an exclusive interview, the face of America’s COVID-19 response cautions against the rush for states to reopen, and offers his tips for handling the pandemic's information deluge.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...he-coronavirus-was-made-in-a-chinese-lab-cvd/


----------



## basilio (10 May 2020)

I thought was a really cool video on how Japanese honey bees combat giant killer hornets.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2020)

The fascinating behaviour of rotating bodies.


----------



## Joules MM1 (25 May 2020)

hydrogen in Aus


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 May 2020)

benthic


----------



## SirRumpole (28 May 2020)

Astronomers find "missing matter".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-28/astronomers-find-universe-missing-matter/12291788


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Astronomers find "missing matter".
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-28/astronomers-find-universe-missing-matter/12291788



My mate works for AARnet,  and was involved in the SKA. It was always about bandwidth. (Best job he'd been involved with, he said)


----------



## wayneL (7 June 2020)

I've always viewed concerns over 5G as a storm in a teapot and perhaps tin foil hat material.

But then I spot this.... Hmmmm


----------



## basilio (7 June 2020)

Debunking 5G .


----------



## wayneL (7 June 2020)

I don't think Werner's cites are  CV related bas (and I'm certainly not on board with that). Haven't deep dived into it yet, but an interesting rabbit hole to go down some time.


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2020)

You wouldn't put your head in a microwave or read a book in front of a radar so caution is required, the shorter the wave, the more potent it becomes.
Am i afraid of 5g, not really, will it cause cancers.. aka mutations..most probably but as 0er mobile phone etc, always remember that the energy/ exposure decreases by the cube of the distance
So a phone near your male parts or by your ear is quite different from one on the table 1m away.
Moderation...
Not having an antenna on your bedroom window etc
We get hit by cosmic solar waves, background radiation,EM fields etc
In my view, quite harmless but not fully harmess


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> .. wouldn't put your head in a microwave or read a book in front of a radar so caution is required, the shorter the wave, the more potent it becomes.
> Am i afraid of 5g, not really, will it cause cancers.. aka mutations..most probably but as for mobile phone etc, always remember that the energy/ exposure decreases by *the cube of the distance.*
> So a phone near your male parts or by your ear is quite different from one on the table 1m away.
> Moderation...
> ...



I didn't think modern cell phones emit 'ionising' radiation

And, though it doesn't mean anything (coincidence, correlation, causation), as emerged in popular culture, “_Every day_, it has been estimated, between _one_ and _five_ of your _cells turns cancerous_ and your immune system captures and kills them" =- Bill Bryson; _The Body - a Guide for Occupants. W_ith some 37 trillion cells in the body, there's a lot going on._
_
Old TV sets were essentially_ Cathode Ray Oscilloscopes. _When I did my NSW Radiation Operators Certificate in 1980, the notes mentioned the Act had been changed in the sixties to specifically exclude TV's from being radiation devices. The old saw about sitting too close and damaging your eyes was nonsense, but useful; a bit further away diminishes exposure to radiation by the cubic power law. 

Any building built of granite emits radon gas in measurable amounts; in Aberdeen, Scotland, its quite high. Exposure to 100 mSv a year is the lowest level at which any increase in cancer risk is clearly evident.


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> I didn't think modern cell phones emit 'ionising' radiation



Where did i mention 'ionising'?
4g but all others 3g 2g etc as well are emitting energy which is absorbed by the walls the cells inc your body.
We are cooking ourselves and some of this energy will statistically alter some molecules.
Stats will say that yes some people will have cancer due to 4g but true, most not, or not because of 4g.
On the other hand, 4g will save lives
A balance
4g has shorter wave lengths more energy, and least range as more easily absorbed instead of rebounding.
Just basic physics so yes it is more dangerous than previous bands
No hystery but also no denial


----------



## basilio (21 July 2020)

Did you know ?
Breakfast time


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Did you know ?
> Breakfast time





Who is the bird on your icon bas ?


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Who is the bird on your icon bas ?



A fierce feminist from the Red Army? 
Cute regardless


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

I came across this story a couple of years ago but the wonder of it all still astounds me. 
The story is well worth a read and I suggest the book would make a great present for an inquiring mind.

*Do Trees Talk to Each Other?*
A controversial German forester says yes, and his ideas are shaking up the scientific world

...  Wohlleben has devoted his life to the study and care of trees. He manages this forest as a nature reserve, and lives with his wife, Miriam, in a rustic cabin near the remote village of Hümmel.

Now, at the age of 53, he has become an unlikely publishing sensation. His book _The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate_, written at his wife’s insistence, sold more than 800,000 copies in Germany, and has now hit the best-seller lists in 11 other countries, including the United States and Canada. (Wohlleben has turned his attention to other living things as well, in his _Inner Life of Animals_, newly issued in translation.)

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-trees-180968084/


----------



## dutchie (12 August 2020)

This what Mathematics and Science is all about - great design

Not the  2+2 = 5  bullsh@t


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (14 August 2020)

Amazing..the power of the brain..
This is the real next new frontier


bellenuit said:


>


----------



## bellenuit (17 August 2020)




----------



## basilio (17 August 2020)

Fascinating Bellenuit. Good find.

This story on how AI fills in the  knowledge gaps *very* quickly and learns at a startling rate segues into that article.
*Batteries Not Included*
*..*
Artificial Childhood
For decades, humans have worked to advance the capabilities of machines. By evolving and programming the “genetic” code of computers, we have advanced technology, reduced our own cognitive loads, and subsequently gained the freedom to imagine the next application of our innovations. Recently, we took a quantum leap and allowed machines to learn and to teach each other. In other words, we programmed AI – and it, in turn, began programming itself.

In 2011, AI took a new step toward truly passing the Turing test with the birth of a sub-discipline of machine learning known as deep learning. Deep-learning algorithms seek to truly replicate the way the human brain works by building connections between synapses. Most recently, Google’s DeepMind began inputting imagination-augmented agents (I2As) into its software, which helps the AI sort valuable predictions about its environment from predictions with little value. The era of synthetic imagination is upon us.
https://miscmagazine.com/batteries-not-included/


----------



## basilio (30 August 2020)

One of the best explanations of how chaos theory is behind a range of everyday phenomena  and how the maths works.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 September 2020)

Can negative mass exist ? 

(No , it's not antimatter).


----------



## basilio (13 September 2020)

Have to say this story blew me away. 
The capacity of sharks and humans to be affectionate.


----------



## Joules MM1 (15 September 2020)

Potential sign of alien life detected on inhospitable Venus
					

Scientists said on Monday they have detected in the harshly acidic clouds of Venus a gas called phosphine that indicates microbes may inhabit Earth's inhospitable neighbor, a tantalizing sign of potential life beyond Earth.




					www.reuters.com
				




".. on Earth phosphine is produced by bacteria thriving in oxygen-starved environments. The international scientific team first spotted the phosphine using the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope in Hawaii and confirmed it using the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA) radio telescope in Chile. 

“With what we currently know of Venus, the most plausible explanation for phosphine, as fantastical as it might sound, is life,”


----------



## basilio (27 October 2020)

Looks like there is water, and apparently a lot of it, on the moon.  ! A really big deal in terms of  any future human settlements.








						Water spotted hiding in broad daylight on the Moon
					

Scientists have long suspected that large amounts of frozen water lurk on the Moon in deep, polar craters that never see the Sun — but they've now detected water molecules in a pockmarked, sunlit region near its south pole.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (27 October 2020)

It is fantastic, water on the moon means we can have a moonbase. We can set up industry on the moon. We can explore the stars.* 
It is a game changer!*









						Water spotted hiding in broad daylight on the Moon
					

Scientists have long suspected that large amounts of frozen water lurk on the Moon in deep, polar craters that never see the Sun — but they've now detected water molecules in a pockmarked, sunlit region near its south pole.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Joules MM1 (5 November 2020)

more than 3d


----------



## basilio (1 December 2020)

This is* BIG.. *You may have heard of the capacities of  the computer program Deep Mind.  It basically learns skills  by itself at a breathtaking space.

After it taught itself chess and Go it went from zero to trouncing the best human players in the world within weeks.

But this was just the warm up. Check out this story and perhaps consider the industries that will get a powerful boost from this capacity.









						DeepMind AI cracks 50-year-old problem of protein folding
					

Program solves scientific problem in ‘stunning advance’ for understanding machinery of life




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2020)

basilio said:


> This is* BIG.. *You may have heard of the capacities of  the computer program Deep Mind.  It basically learns skills  by itself at a breathtaking space.
> 
> After it taught itself chess and Go it went from zero to trouncing the best human players in the world within weeks.
> 
> ...




I'm sure that there are some big traders on the ASX that could make use of it if it can make predictions .


----------



## basilio (4 January 2021)




----------



## Joules MM1 (7 January 2021)

They spent 12 years solving a scientific puzzle. It yielded the first COVID-19 vaccines.
					

Long before anyone knew of SARS-CoV-2, a small band of government and university scientists uncovered a prototypical key that unlocked life-saving immunizations.




					www.nationalgeographic.com
				




*They spent 12 years solving a puzzle. It yielded the first COVID-19 vaccines.*
*Long before anyone knew of SARS-CoV-2, a small band of government and university scientists uncovered a prototypical key that unlocked life-saving immunizations.*

more science .....


----------



## noirua (31 January 2021)




----------



## Joules MM1 (19 April 2021)

#water

gets my vote


----------



## basilio (19 April 2021)

That Solar Dome is a fascinating idea.  The first commercial model is due for completion this year. Well worth keeping an eye on.






						News & updates - Solar Water
					






					www.solarwaterplc.com


----------



## Joules MM1 (20 April 2021)

a first, man-made flying machine takes off on another planet
Ingenuity on the incline
$BTC on the decline


(apparently its the equiv of an earth-bound chopper achieving 100k height in terms of atmospheric conditions)
..take that aliens !!


----------



## basilio (20 April 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> a first, man-made flying machine takes off on another planet
> Ingenuity on the incline
> $BTC on the decline
> 
> ...





I'll tell you what will be even more interesting.. If Ingenuity is beetling around and suddenly it gets shot out of the Martian sky !
That will turn a few heads...


----------



## Joules MM1 (20 May 2021)

9,992 km² is the size of Melbourne

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/04a8...at&fit=max&s=341fbadff5107c3680358be69aa022da













						World’s largest iceberg, nearly four times size of New York City, forms in Antarctica
					

The 3,320 square kilometre slab of ice dubbed A-76 broke off Ronne shelf and is floating in Weddell sea




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Joules MM1 (20 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Hopefully this thread will allow some lateral thinking apart from politics.
> 
> Fascinating...
> 
> ...




thanks, @SirRumpole 
..and if you do have a brain with fam history of PD or Alzheimer's 
excerpt:

*A New Drug Cleans Neurons and Reverses Symptoms*

In an encouraging finding, Dr. Cuervo and her team developed a novel drug that shows potential for treating Alzheimer's. "We know that CMA is capable of digesting defective tau and other proteins," said Dr. Cuervo. "But the sheer amount of defective protein in Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases overwhelms CMA and essentially cripples it. Our drug revitalizes CMA efficiency by boosting levels of a key CMA component."








						Experimental drug shows potential against Alzheimer's disease: Removing 'garbage' from brain cells improves memory in mice
					

Researchers have designed an experimental drug that reversed key symptoms of Alzheimer's disease in mice. The drug works by reinvigorating a cellular cleaning mechanism that gets rid of unwanted proteins by digesting and recycling them.



					www.sciencedaily.com


----------



## Joules MM1 (7 June 2021)

https://cires.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/spheres/pdf/Spheres_2021.pdf
		


great reading for sciency type people.
 contents:


----------



## Knobby22 (7 June 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> https://cires.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/spheres/pdf/Spheres_2021.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Love to go to the navigating a new arctic lecture.


----------



## basilio (8 June 2021)

Learn something new every day.

_The Earth is far more alive than previously thought, according to “deep life” studies that reveal a rich ecosystem beneath our feet that is almost twice the size of all the world’s oceans.

Despite extreme heat, no light, minuscule nutrition and intense pressure, scientists estimate this subterranean biosphere is teeming with between 15bn and 23bn tonnes of micro-organisms, hundreds of times the combined weight of every human on the planet._









						Scientists identify vast underground ecosystem containing billions of micro-organisms
					

Global team of scientists find ecosystem below earth that is twice the size of world’s oceans




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (12 June 2021)

Wind powered car - that goes faster than the wind... Mark 1


----------



## basilio (13 June 2021)

Science Daily is an excellent website that brings together new and sometimes older science stories across all fields.
Go lose yourself..









						ScienceDaily: Your source for the latest research news
					

Breaking science news and articles on global warming, extrasolar planets, stem cells, bird flu, autism, nanotechnology, dinosaurs, evolution -- the latest discoveries in astronomy, anthropology, biology, chemistry, climate & environment, computers, engineering, health & medicine, math, physics...



					www.sciencedaily.com


----------



## basilio (13 June 2021)

Another science based site but also focused on the interaction science and society.





__





						The Latest From Undark - Undark Magazine
					

Undark is a non-profit, editorially independent digital magazine exploring the intersection of science and society.




					undark.org


----------



## Joules MM1 (8 July 2021)

words of the week geomorphologic sedimentologic


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

Genetic engineering is alive and well.








						Are designer babies and supersoldiers inevitable?
					

Saving lives or playing God? We consider where the gene-editing revolution might lead.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Genetic engineering is alive and well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Anything that can be done will be done, by someone anyway.


----------



## orr (17 September 2021)

Just like to give 'a best of luck' to the Chinese effort out in the Gobi Desert with Their Thorium molten salt reactor... 
A flicker of true hope in an outherwise distructive self impovrishing nuclear tub thumping paranoid week.
Can we ask the Yanks to throw in the specs from the Oak Ridge work, as a bonus, with what ever outdated tech they'll flog us? They're sending the hooks down for the 'Thresher' now.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 October 2021)

strange radio bursts from the centre of the galaxy.

Maybe some potential investors out there.   









						What's causing a strange radio signal from the centre of the Milky Way?
					

Astronomers are baffled by a mysterious radio signal coming from near the centre of our galaxy that appears and disappears randomly.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (16 October 2021)

Scientists have discovered a new planet. 
2000C summer temperatures  and in winter (500C)  it rains.... aluminium..









						Meet TOI-3362 b —  the 'blazingly hot' planet with metal rain
					

Queensland scientists have helped confirm the discovery of an "extremely unusual" new planet, with temperatures above 2000 degrees,  aluminium rain, and a rare orbit.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Joules MM1 (16 October 2021)

@SirRumpole a  weekend tv moment


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2021)

I bet there was a queue at the space station toilet after the thruster incident.








						Space station situation with Russian module misfire more serious than stated: report
					

The space station spun far more than the reported 45 degrees, according to NASA flight director Zebulon Scoville.




					www.space.com


----------



## basilio (19 October 2021)

Dwarf planets in our Solar System.  How many can you name ?  WTF are they anyway ??









						A Visual Introduction to the Dwarf Planets in our Solar System
					

Since dwarf planets started being classified in 2005, nine have been recognized. Here we visually introduce the dwarf planets in our solar system.




					www.visualcapitalist.com


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2021)

Fascinating video on how radiation can effect election results, and lots of other things.


----------



## basilio (5 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Fascinating video on how radiation can effect election results, and lots of other things.





That was an absolutely fascinating video. The *fact *that random cosmic particles can and do interfere with computer programs including the examples offered is a lesson in chaos. I suppose the most challenging question would be "What if there was a serious solar flare or similar event which damaged every electronic chip in the world "


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2021)

basilio said:


> That was an absolutely fascinating video. The *fact *that random cosmic particles can and do interfere with computer programs including the examples offered is a lesson in chaos. I suppose the most challenging question would be "What if there was a serious solar flare or similar event which damaged every electronic chip in the world "



I think humans might be fried if we got a flare that big, but if a  nuclear weapon got hit and changed a command to 'fire' that would be a problem?


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## basilio (5 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think humans might be fried if we got a flare that big, but if a  nuclear weapon got hit and changed a command to 'fire' that would be a problem?




Not really Rumpole. The massive solar flare of 1859 fried the electric telegraphs systems of the time  and created some spectacular sights around the world.  Such an event would  burn out every computer chip that it hits. But it isn't the right sort of energy to directly kill people. 

The stock market might look a bit sick though. (Actually there wouldn't be a stock market for some time after such an event. )









						A Perfect Solar Superstorm: The 1859 Carrington Event
					

In 1859 a massive solar flare spewed electrified gas and subatomic particles toward Earth, wreaking havoc on telegraph networks.




					www.history.com
				











						This Multi-Trillion Dollar Disaster Is Coming, And Solar Astronomy Is Our Prime Defense
					

The NSF's new, cutting-edge solar observatory shows us the Sun as never before. Here's why we need to know.




					www.forbes.com


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## basilio (8 November 2021)

In the 21st Century we use negative numbers without thinking.  They are just part of the maths we learn at school and obviously play a critical role in solving many technological problems.

But when did "imaginary" numbers first come to be used? How did Egyptians or Persians or the Chinese deal with "minus 6 cows " ?

Well they didn't.  Ancients Maths was rooted in the real world. But at some stage this changed.

Veritasium explores the development of maths and the role of Maths duels in Italy in the 1500's as drivers of  a maths discovery that underpins all the science of the 21st Century. Fascinating.


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## SirRumpole (13 November 2021)

Another excellent video by Veritassium, this time on human perception, and why we don't always perceive the truth.


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## mullokintyre (14 November 2021)

A company in the US has found a new novel and carbon free way to launch satellites into outer space.
The company is called Spin Launch
FromCNBC


> Spinlaunch is an innovative new space technology company that has created an alternative method for putting 200 kilogram class satellites into low earth orbit. Unlike traditional fuel-based rockets, SpinLaunch uses a ground-based, electric powered kinetic launch system that delivers a substantially less expensive and environmentally sustainable approach to space access.
> SpinLaunch, which is building an alternative method of launching spacecraft to orbit, last month conducted its first test flight of a prototype in New Mexico.
> The company is developing a launch system that uses kinetic energy as its primary method to get off the ground – with a vacuum-sealed centrifuge spinning the rocket at several times the speed of sound before releasing.
> 
> ...



When they finally get that spin arm to 100% of its designed speed, you would want to be a long way away from it, as any failure would be the equivalent of a rocket pad launch destruction.
if they do prefect it, it would likely be unsuitable  to launch humans into space, as the centrifugal forces would be a tad higher than the 15 or so that is the physical limit to  most humans.
Mick


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## basilio (14 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> A company in the US has found a new novel and carbon free way to launch satellites into outer space.
> The company is called Spin Launch
> FromCNBC
> 
> ...




Interesting concept. If it works - ground breaking.
First question I would have is "What is the effect of air friction on the rocket  and it's contents when it is released and speeding into the orbit ? .  It clearly begins at maximum velocity and is starting it's journey at sea level height with the densest atmosphere.

Second thought. This could be a devastating ICBM  propellent. I'm guessing it would have guidance systems that could direct the  rocket  to a target.  Travelling at hypersonic speeds it would  have a devastating first strike capacity.


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## basilio (14 November 2021)

Went looking  for more info on Spin launch.
Certainly looks like a goer. The clearly sorted out the friction issues very early on.
And no surprise to discover that the US Defense Depatment is one of the early funders and they intend to move the launch site to coastal regions.

The Video is an excellent review of previous and current ways of accelerating rockets and armaments. Also does an excellent job of examining the the physics behind the rockt.








						Startup SpinLaunch completes first test flight with wild rocket-flinging launch system
					

The alternative rocket system reached 'tens of thousands of feet' in altitude, the company says.




					www.space.com


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## SirRumpole (20 November 2021)

How is power transferred from the power station to your home ? 

Electrons moving through wires right ?

Wrong.


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## basilio (2 December 2021)

What you can see when you have  a Very Large Telescope. (Yep. the true name for this observatory )









						Meet the nearby black holes that are set to collide and create a 'monster'
					

Astronomers have discovered a pair of supermassive black holes that are the closest to Earth ever observed – and they're on a collision course with each other.




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (31 December 2021)

Great description of analog vs digital computers.


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## mullokintyre (1 January 2022)

basilio said:


> What you can see when you have  a Very Large Telescope. (Yep. the true name for this observatory )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't wait for the FLT to be built.
Mick


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## basilio (26 January 2022)

Veritasium always offers some mind blowing scientific ideas in a very accessible form.

This discussion  and exploration of a "simple" mathematical equation takes us on roads we couldn't imagine.  Fascinating.
(21 million+ views. That is far out.)


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2022)

'Spooky' new space object found using Murchison Widefield Array telescope in WA.









						'Very, very spooky' signals point to first detection of space phenomenon
					

Combing through data from an outback telescope, astronomers discover a mysterious object in our galaxy that's never been seen before.




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2022)

It's fusion Jim, but not as we know it...

Interesting to see energy is now being measured in units of the chocolate biscuit.   









						This reaction had the energy of half a chocolate biscuit, but it could change the game for nuclear fusion
					

This marks a milestone on the way to nuclear fusion power — and perhaps sustainable electricity generation — using lasers.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (27 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's fusion Jim, but not as we know it...
> 
> Interesting to see energy is now being measured in units of the chocolate biscuit.
> 
> ...



Actually, when you think about it, the successful production of a net positive energy gain fusion reactor would be a game changing result that would almost outweigh anything achieved in the last thirty years.
The ripple effects not only for energy production, but for climate  alarmists, Electric  transport of all varieties, reduction of smoke and diesel particulate pollution in poor countries, removal of fission waste that can be turned into weapons, reduction of large cross country high voltage transmission lines and interconnectors, and probably lots more I have not even thought of.
Mick


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## basilio (27 January 2022)

Just watched Professor Brian Cox talking about the takeaways from Don't Look up.  This is a movie that has the premise of a couple of scientists who discover a comet is on a collison course with earth  in 6 months and attempt to get governments to take action to save all life on earth.

Sadly.. we don't make it...

Brian Cox is just brilliant. Well worth a look and think IMV. As is Don't Look Up.


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## wayneL (30 January 2022)

Bad science, especially medicine. (Hmm the mind boggles)


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## basilio (1 February 2022)

News flash.
Scientists know nuttin. They just make numbers up to look impressive.

‘I just make most of this stuff up to be honest’ admits Professor Brian Cox​ 





*Professor Brian Cox has revealed today that he ‘just tends to make **** up’ when it comes to massive numbers and facts about the universe.*

Speaking about his popular BBC documentary Universe, Professor Cox, who is actually a musician and does physics for a laugh revealed most of the ‘facts’ and information in the programme about the universe are simply made up on the spot in order to sound really cool.









						'I just make most of this stuff up to be honest' admits Professor Brian Cox
					

Professor Brian Cox has revealed today that he ‘just tends to make **** up’ when it comes to massive numbers and facts about the universe.  Speaking about his popular BBC documentary Universe, Professor Cox, who is actually a musician and does physics for a laugh revealed most of the ‘facts’ and i




					newsthump.com


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## moXJO (1 February 2022)

basilio said:


> News flash.
> Scientists know nuttin. They just make numbers up to look impressive.
> 
> ‘I just make most of this stuff up to be honest’ admits Professor Brian Cox​
> ...



Who knew all your posts were 'Science based'.


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## basilio (1 February 2022)




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## basilio (1 February 2022)

A 750km 'megaflash' across three US states breaks record for longest lightning bolt
					

A single bolt of lightning that stretched across Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi in April 2020 is the longest on record, according to the World Meteorological Organization.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (19 February 2022)

Fish yabber on all the time.   That is not fishy..

It seems the main topics are sex ,food and Donald Trump.









						Hums, honks and boops? That’s just fish chatting about sex and food
					

New research reveals the staggering scale of underwater sound communication, starting with sturgeon 155m years ago




					www.theguardian.com


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## SirRumpole (23 April 2022)

The shocking toll of leaded fuels.


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## basilio (25 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The shocking toll of leaded fuels.





What a find.  I enjoy/appreciate




Veritasium    11.7M subscribe

very much.  This however was one of the truly elite pieces of research and presentation.
The story of how leaded petrol  was developed and went on to poison hundreds of millions of people  and damage our ecosystem is horrific.

*There was no accident here. From day one the inventor and the company realised how dangerous the product was.  It was killing their workers for a start as well as poisoning the inventor. *The painstaking research to identify the effects of this lead on health, mortality and mental illness is excellent. If you go to the You Tube link all the research and collaborators are identified*.*

Also well worth checking out the WREN organisation that sponsored this video. It has some great projects.

Nice find Rumpy


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## SirRumpole (25 April 2022)

basilio said:


> What a find.  I enjoy/appreciate
> View attachment 140809
> Veritasium    11.7M subscribe
> 
> ...




Thanks bas. Reply to Veritassium's YouTube channel and get notifications of his new videos.


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## SirRumpole (25 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Thanks bas. Reply to Veritassium's YouTube channel and get notifications of his new videos.




Subscribe, not Reply.


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## wayneL (25 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The shocking toll of leaded fuels.




Super interesting, especially with regards to general intellect. For a helluva a long time I have noticed humans IMO used to have greater linguistic skills than at least over my own lifetime and have always wondered why.

This could explain that.


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## macca (25 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Super interesting, especially with regards to general intellect. For a helluva a long time I have noticed humans IMO used to have greater linguistic skills than at least over my own lifetime and have always wondered why.
> 
> This could explain that.



I thought it was texting that has caused the loss of the ability to speak in sentences


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## basilio (9 July 2022)

At last. A practical use for 3 D printers.  Lets  3D print a rocket that will take people to outer space and even Mars !!


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## basilio (9 July 2022)

Check out  the Relativity Space company that is 3D building this rocket. Lift off will be later this year.









						Relativity Space
					






					www.relativityspace.com
				











						Archives
					






					www.relativityspace.com


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## wayneL (9 July 2022)

basilio said:


> At last. A practical use for 3 D printers.  Lets  3D print a rocket that will take people to outer space and even Mars !!




Nott as high tech as rocket ships, but we've found a practical use for 3d printers, for remedial work in our field.... Very useful in fact.


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## SirRumpole (9 July 2022)

basilio said:


> At last. A practical use for 3 D printers.  Lets  3D print a rocket that will take people to outer space and even Mars !!





3D printers have been producing medical parts for years.


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## basilio (9 July 2022)

basilio said:


> At last. A practical use for 3 D printers.  Lets  3D print a rocket that will take people to outer space and even Mars !!





My comment was very tongue in check.  Yes we know that 3D printing has now become very effective at producing a wide range of products. The critical difference with this company and it's rapid production of entire rockets is the 10/100 fold improvement in the size and complexity of their 3D printing.

For example they are producing intricate rocket engines which normally have thousands of individual tubes each spot welded to a precise spot in one piece. These units are structurally stronger than any current unit and  10-100 times cheaper to construct.

This video is one for the engineers and industrial designers on ASF. The company and its skills are well worth noting. 

From what I have seen I think this company will be making a profound impact on teh stock market as well as engineering almost everything. Great IT skills. Great mechanical capacity.


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## SirRumpole (15 July 2022)

A major problem for future moon missions, dust.


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## basilio (23 July 2022)

Another superb presentation from Veratitisum.  He does an outstanding job of explaining critical science facts and discoveries in very accessible ways.  This one on the importance of nitrogen and how the Haber process revolutionized  agriculture is up there with his best work.


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## basilio (23 July 2022)

If you take  the trouble to check out the Nitrogen story make sure you finish watching the video. The last few minutes offer an insight into an organisation supporting creative ways to draw down CO2 from the atmosphere to mitigate human caused global heating. WREN supported this video and in return Veritasim critiqued and supported them









						Our Projects | Wren
					

Meet the projects that Wren members support to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.




					www.wren.co


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## mullokintyre (2 August 2022)

Scientists are puzzled as to just why the earth has started spinning faster.
From  the mind Unleashed


> The Earth recently completed a rotation faster than ever before at* 1.59 millisecond under 24 hours*, and the consequences for how we keep time have experts around the world alarmed.
> 
> It could be the first time in world history that global clocks will have to be sped up.
> 
> ...



And heres me thinking that the fact that time seemed to fly these days was just because I am getting old(er).
It was kinda predictable that  climate change would get a place in the pantheon of possible causes.
It was also predictable that the headline says the fastest day ever, despite the fact we have only been able to measure at such time frames  for the past 250 years. It could pale into insignificance  compared to some of the dooseys that have built up the past before atomic clocks came on the scene.
Mick


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## PZ99 (2 August 2022)

Now we know why people are living longer


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## Knobby22 (4 August 2022)

Terry Pratchett.


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## basilio (4 August 2022)

James Lovelock has died at 103. He was a brilliant scientist and not afraid to develop whole new ways of seeing the world.
At 100 years of age he gave an interview with The Economist on how humanity could survive global warming.


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## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

Silly French sausage. 









						French scientist owns up after star photo revealed to be spicy sausage
					

A director at France's Atomic Energy Commission apologises after his 'distant star' tweet turns out to be a slice of chorizo.




					www.abc.net.au


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## wayneL (30 August 2022)

Just a little snippet from our old friend Karl Popper:

It brings into sharp focus a recent discussion on the scientific method on a different thread. One very important component of that seems to have been neglected of late, especially by those "following the science"; namely, falsification.

FYI


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## wayneL (2 November 2022)

The replication crisis:

fOlLoW tHe ScIeNcE


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## SirRumpole (2 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> The replication crisis:
> 
> fOlLoW tHe ScIeNcE





Part of the Scientific process is to continually re-examine the work of others to detect errors and fraud.

The detection process has worked, so yes you can trust the science.


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## wayneL (2 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Part of the Scientific process is to continually re-examine the work of others to detect errors and fraud.
> 
> The detection process has worked, so yes you can trust the science.



Quite so.

But can we trust "The Science" as presented to an obviously gullible, government, bureaucracy,  media, and ultimately the public?

I'm people invoke the "follow the science" mantra, it is invariably invoked as some sort of gospel. We saw this with the giant fraud be covered pandemic and MRNA injekshuns.

Reset and all sorts of other fields, including..... climate change.

Test everything my friends, believe nothing, especially if governments are pushing it.


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## SirRumpole (6 November 2022)

The world's most important numerical algorithm.

How the Fast Fourier transform allowed us to detect nuclear tests, and other things.


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## basilio (12 November 2022)

Anyone interested in the worlds highest jumping robot ?

A robot that can jump 31 metres high . Higher than a ten story building.  Bit like  the the Superman of robots.  Clever and fascinating.


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## wayneL (29 December 2022)

2022:


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## Knobby22 (29 December 2022)




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## wayneL (29 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> View attachment 151016



I pink thing should have been Anthony "I am the science"Fauci.

You know, the bloke that lied to us all and got everything wrong.


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## basilio (30 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> I pink thing should have been Anthony "I am the science"Fauci.
> 
> You know, the bloke that lied to us all and got everything wrong.



You really do need some  professional help don't you Wayne ?  

Please,  for your own sake,  get a grip on yourself and stop  just making up poisonous  rubbish that has as much relevance to reality as a George 'Psycho'  Santos CV.


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## SirRumpole (30 December 2022)

basilio said:


> You really do need some  professional help don't you Wayne ?
> 
> Please,  for your own sake,  get a grip on yourself and stop  just making up poisonous  rubbish that has as much relevance to reality as a George 'Psycho'  Santos CV.




Feeding the troll bas ?


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## wayneL (30 December 2022)

So you guys go straight for the ad hom before doing your due diligence?  

Just do some googling before take the L, guys.


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## SirRumpole (30 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Just do some googling before take the L, guys.



We do wayne, but most of the stuff we find doesn't support your pre-conceived opinions, so you wouldn't be interested.


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## wayneL (30 December 2022)

That's not an argument, just slightly more subtle ad hom.

L


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## wayneL (30 December 2022)

Outright lie, or just plain wrong. If plain wrong, why?


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## Knobby22 (31 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Outright lie, or just plain wrong. If plain wrong, why?




The original vaccine was highly effective in most people stopping you catching it. This is because the original virus was not fully adapted to humans, in fact your dog could catch it.

As the virus evolved it spread more easily as it had different ways of entering the human body and the vaccine became less effective in stopping you catch it but still effective in preventing getting very sick.

The latest versions of the virus are less damaging as they concentrate mainly on the upper respiratory tract like normal colds and are much less likely to kill you however the vaccines have not kept up so now offer little protection.

This is all proven with hospital figures where, especially with Delta and the previous virus forms, most of the deaths were unvaccinated people. The USA and UK in particular drive this home.
As I have said before my sister saw this in action in Australia but since we had lockdowns we didn't have massive spreads of the earlier viruses.


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## mullokintyre (31 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The original vaccine was highly effective in most people stopping you catching it. This is because the original virus was not fully adapted to humans, in fact your dog could catch it.
> 
> As the virus evolved it spread more easily as it had different ways of entering the human body and the vaccine became less effective in stopping you catch it but still effective in preventing getting very sick.
> 
> ...



Everything you said is true, however, from the outset, the authorities had no idea as to how the  virus would evolve.
The lockdowns, the mandated vaccinations, were against a virus that you have said yourself was not yet  fully adapted to humans.
Now that it has, all of those previous responses have gone out the window.
From a purely scientific perspective, that makes little sense, unless you subscribe to the concept of go overboard just in case.
The question needs to be asked and debated:
Were 
(a) these methods justified based on what the medical folk knew or did not know at the time?
(b) Given what they know now, were they justified then, and are they justified today?
(c) is the price paid worth it?
It is very difficult to have these debates because  most people merely label the opposite with a perjorative label and sit back smugly saying I won that argument.
To whit, see the tweet from a Health professor  from UNI NSW sociology Professor.
No need to debate  the Barrington declaration when you can label them filth



Mick


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## wayneL (31 December 2022)

The jab was never any good at stopping transmission of anything, original or not.

It never worked. That was all camel dung.


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## Knobby22 (31 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> The jab was never any good at stopping transmission of anything, original or not.
> 
> It never worked. That was all camel dung.



It did work. I certainly don't believe U can change your mind though.

Also, I would point out that Trump and all the mainstays of Fox news took the jab. Think about what that means. They were willing to lead you into danger while not doing it themselves. The death rate for male 60 year olds to the early version of the virus was nearly 2%.

They treated the viewers like a wooly animal just so they could get them to behave in a certain way.


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## mullokintyre (31 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It did work. I certainly don't believe U can change your mind though.
> 
> Also, I would point out that Trump and all the mainstays of Fox news took the jab. Think about what that means. They were willing to lead you into danger while not doing it themselves. The death rate for male 60 year olds to the early version of the virus was nearly 2%.



In those early days, the vaxes were not even developed, much less distributed and jabbed. 
The question is, how many of these were vaxed or non vaxed, and how many of the general population were vaxed/non vaxed.


Knobby22 said:


> They treated the viewers like a wooly animal just so they could get them to behave in a certain way.



I think that has been a consistent theme of the authorities the world over.
Mick


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## basilio (1 January 2023)

Something you have always wondered about ...
Why does the US Government have a huge warehouse which stores and sells almost everything. 

For example a jay of peanut butter for around $1000 ?
Another great science story from Veritassium


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## basilio (2 January 2023)

When you thought  you couldn't be surpised...

*The Murky Details Of Octlantis, A City Built And Run By Octopuses*
Red octopus against black background
Sko/Getty Images    
By Cynthia Griffith/Dec. 19, 2022 2:34 pm EST

Regardless of where you reside, city life is something most people can picture. Characterized by looming skyscrapers, streetside cafes, and bumper-to-bumper traffic jams, cities are a huge part of modern culture. They serve as backdrops in movies, sure, but in real life, their purpose is larger still. According to the World Bank, cities house approximately 56% of the global population and are highly regarded as centers of trade, commerce, and innovation.

When you close your eyes and picture a city, you're probably imagining narrow streets and busy intersections, corporate employees standing in subways, and the smell of local street food wafting through the air. But what do you think a city would look like if it was built and run by a different species — say, for example, octopuses? Yes, octopuses: those clever, tentacle-clad sea creatures with massive roving eyes and bulbous heads.

Oddly enough, you don't have to imagine that. One such city does already exist beyond the realm of imagination, and according to Science Alert, it bares a somewhat haunting resemblance to cities built and run by humans. Here's a deep dive into the fully submerged, octopus-inhabited metropolis.

Read More: https://www.grunge.com/1142778/the-murky-details-of-octlantis-a-city-built-and-run-by-octopuses/


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## mullokintyre (3 January 2023)

basilio said:


> When you thought  you couldn't be surpised...
> 
> *The Murky Details Of Octlantis, A City Built And Run By Octopuses*
> Red octopus against black background
> ...



I always have a bit of laugh when people, be they scientists or otherwise, compare the behaviour of non human organisms with the behaviour of humans.
The assumption  underlying it all is the assumption that humans are the preeminent species on the planet. So if another species behaves in a human like manner (including communicating with each other0, then that species must be more intelligent than the other species who  demonstrate no such behaviours.
I wonder if it has ever occurred to these writers that octopi regard themselves as the pre eminent species, and that humans showing behaviour similar to their own makes humans a little more intelligent than other species? Could it be that we are regraded by them as merely another predator that is put on earth by the Great Creator Octopus(TM) to test them? Does the GCO regret creating humans?
You could swap octopi for any other species and it would be equally valid.
We are a vain lot.
Mick


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## basilio (3 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> I always have a bit of laugh when people, be they scientists or otherwise, compare the behaviour of non human organisms with the behaviour of humans.
> The assumption  underlying it all is the assumption that humans are the preeminent species on the planet. So if another species behaves in a human like manner (including communicating with each other0, then that species must be more intelligent than the other species who  demonstrate no such behaviours.
> I wonder if it has ever occurred to these writers that octopi regard themselves as the pre eminent species, and that humans showing behaviour similar to their own makes humans a little more intelligent than other species? Could it be that we are regraded by them as merely another predator that is put on earth by the Great Creator Octopus(TM) to test them? Does the GCO regret creating humans?
> You could swap octopi for any other species and it would be equally valid.
> ...



Indeed !! Octopus are very, very intelligent. There are some fascinating clips on You  Tube showing how clever the are.

As far as  interaction with people My Octopus Teacher was an amazing story of how a diver and a common ocean octopus  developed a close bond. Well worth checking out.









						My Octopus Teacher - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Watch My Octopus Teacher | Netflix Official Site
					

A filmmaker forges an unusual friendship with an octopus living in a South African kelp forest, learning as the animal shares the mysteries of her world.




					www.netflix.com


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## sptrawler (3 January 2023)

basilio said:


> Indeed !! Octopus are very, very intelligent. There are some fascinating clips on You  Tube showing how clever the are.
> 
> As far as  interaction with people My Octopus Teacher was an amazing story of how a diver and a common ocean octopus  developed a close bond. Well worth checking out.
> 
> ...



Have you ever thought their education system, might be better than ours? 🤣


----------

