# When does the MINI SPI contract start trading?



## Hopeful (26 October 2006)

Well, first of all I'm expressing a hope that SFE will launch one soon.

I'm a brilliant paper trader but a real suck-**** actual SPI trader - the reason is that $25 per tick scares the halloweens out of me! I'm  over-sensitive to even small losses.

So, if there were a MINI SPI with $5 per tick I think I could quit my day job.

Or on the other hand, is there anything else I can trade based on the SPI that won't have me smashing my furniture should a ten-tick loss occur?


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## Bobby (26 October 2006)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Well, first of all I'm expressing a hope that SFE will launch one soon.
> 
> I'm a brilliant paper trader but a real suck-**** actual SPI trader - the reason is that $25 per tick scares the halloweens out of me! I'm  over-sensitive to even small losses.
> 
> ...



IG markets will let you trade a $5 a point contract based on the SPI, its got a 3 point spread in market & a 5 point out of market.


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## yogi-in-oz (26 October 2006)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Well, first of all I'm expressing a hope that SFE will launch one soon.
> 
> I'm a brilliant paper trader but a real suck-**** actual SPI trader - the reason is that $25 per tick scares the halloweens out of me! I'm  over-sensitive to even small losses.
> 
> ...






Hi Hopeful,

..... if a 10 point loss on the SPI scares you, 
then you're trading the wrong markets, with
your emotions and you will NEVER win !~!

Repeat: "Scared money NEVER wins."

So, keep trading the stock market, until you learn
how to trade with your emotions intact ..... if not, 
trading our SPI will likely be very stressful for you, 
not giving you any rest, at all ... !~! 

Take heart ..... not everybody was meant to trade
24-hour markets, like our Aussie SPI, anyway.

happy days

  yogi


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## spitrader1 (26 October 2006)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Well, first of all I'm expressing a hope that SFE will launch one soon.
> 
> I'm a brilliant paper trader but a real suck-**** actual SPI trader - the reason is that $25 per tick scares the halloweens out of me! I'm  over-sensitive to even small losses.
> 
> ...



if 25.00 a tick scares you, so should 5.00. the spi is not something to taken on with fear or doubt in the back of your mind.


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## happytrader (26 October 2006)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Well, first of all I'm expressing a hope that SFE will launch one soon.
> 
> I'm a brilliant paper trader but a real suck-**** actual SPI trader - the reason is that $25 per tick scares the halloweens out of me! I'm  over-sensitive to even small losses.
> 
> ...




Hi Hopeful

Looks like your paper trading is revealing to you really useful information. Maybe you could ask yourself why you are allowing yourself to be distracted away from your purpose of 'giving up your day job' by small losses.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Hopeful (31 October 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> IG markets will let you trade a $5 a point contract based on the SPI, its got a 3 point spread in market & a 5 point out of market.




That's daylight robbery! You'd have to make 8 points just to break even, crikey! Which poor fools are using IG? Pity them and their short trading careers.

CMC seem to be a much better deal - they have a two-point spread and no commissions.


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## DT_Futures (9 November 2006)

dont quit your job
to make a living trading you ned more then $5 a contract...

emotion is everything...

trade the dow if you want lower points $5 a point per contract, commisions are as low as 1.13 if you get the right broker.

good luck


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## >Apocalypto< (5 February 2007)

the above posts are a wealth of knowledge please take all of that information to heart.

all i can say is paper trading is nothing to the real thing!

good trading hopeful


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## Hopeful (16 February 2007)

DT_Futures said:
			
		

> dont quit your job
> to make a living trading you ned more then $5 a contract...
> 
> emotion is everything...
> ...




I wouldn't agree that $5 per tick is necessarily insufficient, would depend on your strike rate , average number of tick gains versus losses, and the other usual factors. But anyway you are missing the point ie that with $5 ticks my emotions don't trump my trading method. The  :fan when your guts rules the way you trade rather than sticking with your plan.

Case in point: I've recently been trading the Mini Nasdaq futures with some encouraging results (based on an admittedly very small sample of trades so far). It moves enough such that at even $5 per tick gives a decent return on a decent intra-day run, but the $ value of stop losses are small enough not to make me   and go nuts doubling up to recover losses (hey, done that too recently on the SPY futures!).


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## Pager (16 February 2007)

My   

At $5 a tick you would need brokerage of no more than $2 per side to make it worthwhile. 

Not sure how liquid a $5 contract would be, can’t see any of the major players showing any interest so maybe some big spreads and low volume for trading which wouldn’t be good.

The Spi is by comparison to other futures markets is a pussycat contract to trade, most days slippage is minimal, there’s always a good amount of contracts on the bid and offer and spreads usually only 1 point, this is for the day session, the night session is a different kettle of fish.

If $25 a point on the Spi is frightening don’t even contemplate the Hang Seng   ,  tick size is only a bit higher but boy does this market move on occasion, get the wrong side of such a move and the word “slaughtered” would be appropriate for the slippage you get stung with. 

Cheers

Pager


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## professor_frink (16 February 2007)

I agree pager- can't see there being much volume on a mini spi.

Hopeful,
Between the mini nikkei and the mini HSI there shouldn't be a problem finding trades at all during the day!



			
				Pager said:
			
		

> If $25 a point on the Spi is frightening don’t even contemplate the Hang Seng , tick size is only a bit higher but boy does this market move on occasion, get the wrong side of such a move and the word “slaughtered” would be appropriate for the slippage you get stung with.




The mini contract could be a good place to start to get a feel for this market Pager(if your interested of course)- it's 1/5th the size of the full one, so it won't burn you too bad while you get a feel for how the market moves.


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## Pager (16 February 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> The mini contract could be a good place to start to get a feel for this market Pager(if your interested of course)- it's 1/5th the size of the full one, so it won't burn you too bad while you get a feel for how the market moves.




Thanks prof but im already trading the Hang Seng, my slippage comments were from experiance, still with the slippage it can be a great contract to trade, get the right side of one of its directional moves and boy can you make a quid   .


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## professor_frink (16 February 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> Thanks prof but im already trading the Hang Seng, my slippage comments were from experiance, still with the slippage it can be a great contract to trade, get the right side of one of its directional moves and boy can you make a quid   .



Sorry Pager I didn't know  

Yeah the slippage thing is something that worries me a little(I'm still on my 'L' plates with the HSI).

So far I haven't experienced much in the way of slippage yet, though I'm only entering on limit orders, and haven't been chasing it if it runs away from where I want to enter.I've copped 2 points max slippage on a stop order, which has been good(or lucky, I'm not sure which yet  )

Hopefully it will be a while before I step in front of one of these massive moves(fingers crossed!)


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## Pager (16 February 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> Sorry Pager I didn't know
> 
> Yeah the slippage thing is something that worries me a little(I'm still on my 'L' plates with the HSI).
> 
> ...




Good luck with the HS, if you have only copped 2 points that is very good going for this market, be prepared as i guarantee you this market will get you one day, about 2 weeks ago i got slipped 60 points   thats on top of my original stop   , on the flip side it can move hundreds of points in just a few minuetes or less.

Cheers

Pager


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## professor_frink (16 February 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> Good luck with the HS, if you have only copped 2 points that is very good going for this market, be prepared as i guarantee you this market will get you 1 day, about 2 weeks ago i got slipped 60 points   thats on top of my original stop   , on the flip side it can put on hundreds of points in just a couple of hours or less.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Pager



 gee I hope it's a long, long time before that happens to me!

If you don't mind me asking what date was that?


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## Pager (16 February 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> gee I hope it's a long, long time before that happens to me!
> 
> If you don't mind me asking what date was that?




Hi prof, more than a couple of weeks, time flys eh   

Friday 5th January got caught long and a short sweep order took all the longs to the cleaners  

Market then rcovered and ended the day up a couple of hundred points


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## professor_frink (16 February 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> Hi prof, more than a couple of weeks, time flys eh
> 
> Friday 5th January got caught short



ahh- vicious spike around 2:30 maybe?? It kind of stands out on that day!

It's spikes like that, that show up all to regularly, that made my mind up not to try and adapt my spi/nik system for the HSI- I'd get caught out on those moves quite often! Had to go back to the beginning and design a method from scratch that tries to avoid that-god I hope I've succeeded!

anyhow- gotta run, the girlfriend will be getting angry if I'm not off the computer soon


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## Pager (16 February 2007)

You just missed my edit prof   , was actually at the start of trade and i was long off the open.

You must have tick data ?.

cheers

Pager


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## professor_frink (16 February 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> You just missed my edit prof   , was actually at the start of trade and i was long off the open.
> 
> You must have tick data ?.
> 
> ...



oh ok-that's an even worse spike  

Not pure tick data- just collect IB's data in amibroker(my main database is in 1 minute intervals unfortunately-I've had to set another one up that stores data in 15 second intervals for my move into the HSI.


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## Hopeful (18 February 2007)

I did trade the Nikkei for a while, I traded the 500-yen-per-tick one in Japan on the Japanese market, but I found it to be hard to trade - liquidity was good but range was slow and tight. I gave it up.

Is the mini nikkei you speak of like that? Which exchange, what code? Thanks


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## Pager (18 February 2007)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Is the mini nikkei you speak of like that? Which exchange, what code? Thanks




Here you are Hopeful, heres the info from the Osaka exchange it trades on, have not traded it myself.

http://www.ose.or.jp/e/futures/ind_225mini.html


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## Hopeful (20 February 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> Here you are Hopeful, heres the info from the Osaka exchange it trades on, have not traded it myself.
> 
> http://www.ose.or.jp/e/futures/ind_225mini.html




Thanks, Pager. Actually, that is the same one I traded before without much success. I'll go have a look at the Hang Seng and see if it's a little more exciting.


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## Hopeful (20 February 2007)

Hey, you guys were right about the Hang Seng futures market, that sucker MOVES! 

The HS is HK$50 per tick (only US$6 but it makes incredibly large ranges even on a one-minute chart) and that is way too roller-coaster-puke-up for me.

But the mini would only be $1.30 USD per tick - that much I can prolly handle.

I'm love the chart, it looks so liquid and volatile, just what a day trader needs!

Is the mini very liquid? The full-sized one certainly is, here's a one minute chart:
Hang Seng Index Futures February


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## professor_frink (20 February 2007)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Hey, you guys were right about the Hang Seng futures market, that sucker MOVES!
> 
> The HS is HK$50 per tick (only US$6 but it makes incredibly large ranges even on a one-minute chart) and that is way too roller-coaster-puke-up for me.
> 
> ...



The mini is nowhere near as liquid. It will generally do about 10 000 contracts a day. If you only want to move a couple of contracts it shouldn't be a problem,depending on your style of trading and execution skills.


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## Hopeful (16 March 2007)

Just wanted to pop in and praise the Hang Seng. I've been using the full contract chart and trading with the mini, although not as liquid the full, the mini is very suitable for day trading - much better than the SPI (IMHO). Thanks to those who put me on to it. Cheers.


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## Hopeful (16 March 2007)

March 16th, 2007 update. The morning session has just finished and what a morning it was! The HS moved up in a nice trend giving anyone with simple TA skills the chance to enter several times with low risk. Compare it to the SPI and you'll see that it is clearly much more liquid and produced a much clearer smoother chart. Goodbye SPI.


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## Pager (17 March 2007)

Hopeful said:
			
		

> March 16th, 2007 update. The morning session has just finished and what a morning it was! The HS moved up in a nice trend giving anyone with simple TA skills the chance to enter several times with low risk. Compare it to the SPI and you'll see that it is clearly much more liquid and produced a much clearer smoother chart. Goodbye SPI.




The Hang Seng does good volume but take a look at the bid/ask spread its often 5 points or more, take a look at how many contracts are on the bid and offer?, its often very thin with only a handful of contracts either side a lot of the time   , not sure why considering the volume is about 4 times or more the Spi and that usually has a tight spread and plenty on the bid and offer??????. 

As you have said this market moves and can move very quickly, but get the wrong side of it and it will kick you in the teeth before you can blink, slippage is the norm for this market its very rare I don’t get any!, if you trade it eventually it will get you not just for a few slippage points but 30/40/50+   that I will guarantee.

On the plus side, get the right side of a move and the rewards are very good, just be prepared to hang (excuse the pun!)In there and kop the losses on the chin as over time returns can be very good.

Cheers

Pager


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## Pager (17 March 2007)

Hopeful

Another market you may want to consider with a smaller tick size is the MSCI Taiwan Index that trades on the SGX Exchange in Singapore, US$10 per tick and it does very good volume.

Cheers

Pager


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## Hopeful (18 March 2007)

Ｐａｇｅｒ，　I have found that the spread for the HS mini is almost always 1 to 5 ticks wide, most of the time I've been able to get filled somewhere between the two, but if I see a particularly strong reason to get in I'll just take the offer. I don't think the wide spread is a big problem because of the way it dances all around the place and allows limit orders to get hit pretty quickly.

The most important aspect of trading the MHS for me is that one tick is only worth $10 HK, it's such a small amount that it doesn't freak me out too badly (but still does a little) - this means I can trade my plan and not let my lack of nads get the better of me. Also, as I'm only doing one contract at a time the lack of volume doesn't matter to me - I only need one lot (or two to reverse).

Your cautionary note (getting on the wrong side of a big move) is noted! However, if my trading plan is any good (which I think it is) then I should already be out or reversed when the big move happens. But "should" and "will" are a little different. I'll post my comments here as I gain more experience with it.

I'll have a look at the MSCI Taiwan index on Monday - it might even be better than the Mini HS?

Cheers.


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## Hopeful (18 March 2007)

Pager said:
			
		

> Hi prof, more than a couple of weeks, time flys eh
> 
> Friday 5th January got caught long and a short sweep order took all the longs to the cleaners
> 
> Market then rcovered and ended the day up a couple of hundred points




Hey, I know this is a long shot but does anyone have sierrachart tick data for January the 5th for the HSI futures contract? I would like to see what may have happened to me if I had been trading that day (I doubt I can get a backfill on an already-expired contract). Thanks heaps.


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## professor_frink (11 April 2007)

Howdy Hopeful

You still trading the MHI? If you are, how are you finding it now that you've got a few trades under your belt?


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## Hopeful (12 April 2007)

professor_frink said:


> Howdy Hopeful
> 
> You still trading the MHI? If you are, how are you finding it now that you've got a few trades under your belt?




I haven't been all that active but I can make a judgment at this point; the MHI, although not as liquid as the HSI, is plenty liquid enough for day trading. It mirrors the HSI closely enough to hardly notice and difference. I haven't been stuck in any trade that went against me with any ferocity ... yet. As I said before, this market as far superior to the SPI for very short-term day trading - makes me wonder why I bothered with the SPI at all. 

For example: Pull up a one-minute chart of the HSI for today (Wednesday the 11th of April). You will see it had a simple trend line break about 15 minutes before lunch. Had you bought it then (20315), or even at the start of the afternoon session(20345), you wouldn't have had any reason to exit (23.6% Fib and red candles) until about 25 minutes after the start of the afternoon session (20430). At least 100 points. You could have re-entered on the basis of a trend resumption 15 minutes after that and exited after a repeat of the previous range ( it went a little over ) for another 100+ points.

Of course that's a lot of ifs buts, maybes, and could haves - and furthermore I wasn't even there to trade it (darn day job!), but my point is is that it's a great market to trade - the best I've found so far! I'm _hopeful_ that I can make this a good part-time income.


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## CanOz (12 April 2007)

How closely does the HK HS34, follow the HSI? This is not as broad as as the HSI correct? 

Cheers,


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## professor_frink (12 April 2007)

Hopeful said:


> I haven't been all that active but I can make a judgment at this point; the MHI, although not as liquid as the HSI, is plenty liquid enough for day trading. It mirrors the HSI closely enough to hardly notice and difference. I haven't been stuck in any trade that went against me with any ferocity ... yet. As I said before, this market as far superior to the SPI for very short-term day trading - makes me wonder why I bothered with the SPI at all.
> 
> For example: Pull up a one-minute chart of the HSI for today (Wednesday the 11th of April). You will see it had a simple trend line break about 15 minutes before lunch. Had you bought it then (20315), or even at the start of the afternoon session(20345), you wouldn't have had any reason to exit (23.6% Fib and red candles) until about 25 minutes after the start of the afternoon session (20430). At least 100 points. You could have re-entered on the basis of a trend resumption 15 minutes after that and exited after a repeat of the previous range ( it went a little over ) for another 100+ points.
> 
> Of course that's a lot of ifs buts, maybes, and could haves - and furthermore I wasn't even there to trade it (darn day job!), but my point is is that it's a great market to trade - the best I've found so far! I'm _hopeful_ that I can make this a good part-time income.




One thing I've been very wary of is buying/selling just before the lunchbreak, as the gaps can be fairly severe, and not always sympathetic to the morning trend. Only time I've ever held has been when I've got set pretty early and am sitting on fairly decent gains- worst case then is losing some open profit, not having a loss blow out on me.

Days like yesterday are great to trade, and haven't been that uncommon since I started trading it(though I only started at the end of January, just as it was making a top)

Good luck with it in the future hopeful Hope it's nice to you!



CanOz said:


> How closely does the HK HS34, follow the HSI? This is not as broad as as the HSI correct?
> 
> Cheers,



What's the HK HS34 canuck?


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## CanOz (12 April 2007)

professor_frink said:


> One thing I've been very wary of is buying/selling just before the lunchbreak, as the gaps can be fairly severe, and not always sympathetic to the morning trend. Only time I've ever held has been when I've got set pretty early and am sitting on fairly decent gains- worst case then is losing some open profit, not having a loss blow out on me.
> 
> Days like yesterday are great to trade, and haven't been that uncommon since I started trading it(though I only started at the end of January, just as it was making a top)
> 
> ...




Its a CFD indice contract, and it has a mini available too, still trying to find out exactly what indice it is, i figured it must be a group of say 34 large caps....still looking.

Prof, do you use Pivot Points on your indices and on what times frames?

Cheers,


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## professor_frink (12 April 2007)

CanOz said:


> Its a CFD indice contract, and it has a mini available too, still trying to find out exactly what indice it is, i figured it must be a group of say 34 large caps....still looking.
> 
> Prof, do you use Pivot Points on your indices and on what times frames?
> 
> Cheers,



Sounds like it would be the Hang Seng canuck, that's roughly how many co's are in it(I think )

Yes, generally use pivots for the indicies, but don't use them for the Hang Seng. Use them for the nikkei, and mainly for the opening period. On the nikkei, I use daily pivots, and will keep an eye on weeklies as well.

The most common timeframes to use them on are daily, weekly and monthly. Weeklies and monthly pivots can be used for swing trading as well as intraday.

If you want to look into them a bit further, John L. Person has a book out called "A complete guide to technical trading tactics- how to profit using pivot points, candlesticks & other indicators". 'twas a good read 

There an absolutly huge amount of information on pivots on the net though, google is your friend in this instance


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## CanOz (12 April 2007)

professor_frink said:


> Sounds like it would be the Hang Seng canuck, that's roughly how many co's are in it(I think )
> 
> Yes, generally use pivots for the indicies, but don't use them for the Hang Seng. Use them for the nikkei, and mainly for the opening period. On the nikkei, I use daily pivots, and will keep an eye on weeklies as well.
> 
> ...




I've got that book in front of me now actually! Just finished Brent Penfold's Trading the SPI, first read.

Pivots, thanks, don't hear you guys talk much about them thats why i was curious.

Cheers,


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## professor_frink (12 April 2007)

CanOz said:


> I've got that book in front of me now actually! Just finished Brent Penfold's Trading the SPI, first read.
> 
> Pivots, thanks, don't hear you guys talk much about them thats why i was curious.
> 
> Cheers,




In the SPI thread, most of the charts I've posted have at least the dailies on them. There are a few charts with weekly+monthly pivots as well. And some clues on how you could possibly use them

If you are going to have a look at them, I should make a suggestion- they are a fairly subjective way of looking at the market, so spend a bit of time looking at charts forming in real time, with the pivots from whatever timeframe you are looking at stuck on there- Like any other indicator, how you handle the days they don't work so well is the most important part


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## CanOz (12 April 2007)

professor_frink said:


> In the SPI thread, most of the charts I've posted have at least the dailies on them. There are a few charts with weekly+monthly pivots as well. And some clues on how you could possibly use them
> 
> If you are going to have a look at them, I should make a suggestion- they are a fairly subjective way of looking at the market, so spend a bit of time looking at charts forming in real time, with the pivots from whatever timeframe you are looking at stuck on there- Like any other indicator, how you handle the days they don't work so well is the most important part




Excellent advice Prof, thanks you.

Cheers,


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## Hopeful (21 April 2007)

Professor Frink, I had a pretty bad "week" (I can only trade 4 or 5 morning sessions a week and one full day) trading MHI. My limit orders weren't getting filled and I ended up taking much bigger losses than intended because of it. The point you made about the five-point spread is making more sense now. 

I'm now in the red by a few thousand HKDs, not that it's a big deal but psychologically it doesn't help my ability to pull the trigger. Not only that but I managed to miss many of the nice big moves but was very good at catching the false breakouts and whipsaws  . 

Why is it that the big moves are so elusive but the little ones are constantly begging to be traded?


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## Hopeful (30 April 2007)

HSI had a strong morning down today. I traded poorly but still managed to pull a few pennies out. Days like this are easy to trade. More please. Thought we might have been in for another big China drop this morning when it fell 500 points in an hour. Touch wood.


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## professor_frink (30 April 2007)

Hopeful said:


> Professor Frink, I had a pretty bad "week" (I can only trade 4 or 5 morning sessions a week and one full day) trading MHI. My limit orders weren't getting filled and I ended up taking much bigger losses than intended because of it. The point you made about the five-point spread is making more sense now.
> 
> I'm now in the red by a few thousand HKDs, not that it's a big deal but psychologically it doesn't help my ability to pull the trigger. Not only that but I managed to miss many of the nice big moves but was very good at catching the false breakouts and whipsaws  .
> 
> Why is it that the big moves are so elusive but the little ones are constantly begging to be traded?




Sorry hopeful, completely missed this post 

Sorry to hear you've hit a bit of a rough patch, I hope it's getting better now

I went through a similar stage in missing quite a few great moves over the space of a week or so, and picked up pretty well all of the losers

I've found that there are days where you will miss good moves if you aren't prepared to chase the market recklessly. There isn't much you can do about it.

I'm only upset when I miss out on a move because I hesitate at the critical moment, or aren't paying attention when I should be. Unfortunately, that still happens(stupid internet and television has left me with the attention span of a toddler!)

If your plan is sound, then get back in there and keep swinging

I think you'll find it was Pager talking about the spreads. But either way, it's something to always be aware of. It can look pretty horrible at times!


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## chops_a_must (15 August 2007)

Thanks for the fantastic read fellas.

I shall come back in a few months time now that I have my eyes wide open.

Time to get my head down and to learn all this stuff...

By the looks of it, the HSI might be better to trade than the SPI... interesting.


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## Hopeful (26 August 2007)

I don't trade it much anymore, I'm day trading US stocks daily now, doing well. But that's not to say that the HS isn't any good for day trading, it is, but it is also terrible when there's no volatility or major moves - I got badly chopped up many times. Catch the HS on a good day and you can score a small fortune in a matter of minutes. I'm learning the same thing the hard way in the US markets - if the market is flat just leave it alone and walk away 'cos you'll either lose or get nothing, waste of time. Look at the HS for Friday the 24th (August) and compare it to the 17th or 21st.


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