# Optionetics Course - Is it good?



## WaySolid

Does anyone have feedback on Optionetics? http://www.optionetics.com.au/

They run "free" seminar evenings and have a decent looking website, beyond that I don't know anything about them.

WaySolid


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## positivecashflow

*Re: Optionetics*

I have listened to their 15 CD set (4 times now) and read their notes (borrowed!) and have found it very very good. I am also attending the free seminar on Nov 7. I have found that by following what they have taught, is very easy and profitable. I know 2 people who have attended their two day course as well as their advanced course. They also have high praise for it and are making great money following the strategies taught. Once I make enough from following what I have learned then I will definately take their 2 day course and their advanced course too... What they teach though is for the US markets. I will definately recommend getting your hands on their material and experiencing their philosophies and strategies first hand... Visit their US site www.optionetics.com and subscribe to their free newsletter and browse the site.. I definately give them a thumbs up... (just ask JetDollars  ).

Cheers,

J.


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## positivecashflow

*Re: Optionetics*

Oh another good thing about them is that once you attend their 2 day course you can re-attend any future 2 day course in any location around the world!  Pretty cool...

Cheers,

J.


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## still_in_school

*Re: Optionetics*

Hi PositiveCashFlow,

great to hear your response about optionectics, but im still very weary, i know of some people who have attended there courses and are only getting very mild results such as 5% returns a month, and some very complex spreads like condors and butterfly spreads and all...

im not against optionectics, but honestly i do believe you would be better off putting your money towards good books and a good derivatives option broker...

im not quite sure if you trade options, but i do trade options on a daily basis, and what i can tell you is, it is very, very fast game, not only is it fast... there is much higher risk and psychology level, you must have... its just like a tolerance that is needed.

Cheers,
sis


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## still_in_school

*Re: Optionetics*

sorry... about the 5% return a month to the forum members, but 5% return on a high risk investment, is not worth it... 

its almost like gambling and punting your money away...


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## positivecashflow

*Re: Optionetics*

Hi SIS,

I guess it all depends on the application of what people have learnt from the course.  I don't believe that trading options has to be as fast a game as your playing... For example take a directional spread that expires in 3 months, or maybe put on a calendar spread that has the long option that expires in 2007.  I like to pick positions where I can sleep at night!

Cheers,

J.


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## JetDollars

*Re: Optionetics*

Still_In_School,

If I can make 5% per months then I would be very happy because 5% per month over one year is a 60% return of your capital. I don't think many people can grow 60% a year on there capital.

If I can make a return of just 20% annually I would be very happy at this stage of my starting journey.

So SIS, what is your target per month in % base on your capital? Have you achieve it in the last 3 months?


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## markor

*Optionetics - Dodgy?*

What's everyones thoughts?


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## markor

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*

Sorry Guys,
Didn't realise this had been posted in ' General ' . I limited my search to this section only  

Markor


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## The Barbarian Investor

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*

had a look in General and couldn't see it  

They've been on the TV a lot of late in WA anyhow


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## sails

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*

Hi markor,

I just did a search in the derivatives forum and there are a few threads there where Optionetics has been discussed - here is the link:  https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=14786

 To be honest, I wish I had not spent the money on Optionetics.  It has taken me many months of hard work and research on the internet, reading books, countless hours of backtesting, etc  to fill the gaps they did not teach at the 2 day.  They have several other courses (all several thousand each) where they teach more advanced techniques, so don't think you will get a full options education with the first course.  The 2 day seminar really only teaches the basics and they spend a lot of time illustrating expensive software - they know how to market so by the time you finish the 2 day seminar you feel like you absolutely must have it.  They make it look so easy at the seminar - but, in reality, I have found it just as easy to lose money as make it - same as in any trading.  Might suit some people, but we found it was not good value for money.   

Cheers,
Margaret.


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## wayneL

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*

I went to one of their introductory seminars. (I go to many of these for a bit of entertainment)

I was impressed with their salesmanship, it is smooth as Margaret points out. Fortunately I have done a lot of sales training, so recognised the techniques straight away. I did buy Fontanills' book, "The Option Course".

The book was OK, but waffles _ad naseum_ to get to a point. It only needed to be as third as thick. But for $39 (or whatever) it's a hell of a lot cheaper than $3,000.00 for a two day course and most likely contains more information.

If anyone has there heart set on blowing a few k on a course I would suggest checking out www.options-university.com

You will recognise all the same Yankee style NLP marketing, but I have listened in on a few of their free conference calls. They DO know their stuff and seem to be very sincere in giving thier knowledge.

I have no financial connection, of course, but they seem good. www.thinkorswim.com give away a lot of free info as well.

Ultimately, nothing replaces doing the hard yards, just like Margaret says, and a lot of the best info is free. You just have to be passionate about learning all the nuances. 

You have to look at is as an apprenticeship. You cannot learn it all in a short period of time, and even us old timers receive a few surprises from time to time. 

Is the journey worth it? Yes it is as long as people understand the damage that can be done to an account, and to make sure your arse is covered. Eventually you become a master and the $$$$, quite naturally follow.

Forums such as this one are a great place to ask questions. There are lots of folk like Margaret or myself who will gladly share what we know. 

Cheers


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## The Barbarian Investor

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*

hi Wayne

Did you see the ad's in Todays West for another Options Course..including a Full Page Spread?

OPTIONS 21 

TBI


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## RichKid

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



			
				markor said:
			
		

> Sorry Guys,
> Didn't realise this had been posted in ' General ' . I limited my search to this section only
> 
> Markor




No probs Markor, I've moved that thread to the Derivatives thread and merged the most similar optionetics threads.


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## wayneL

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



			
				The Barbarian Investor said:
			
		

> hi Wayne
> 
> Did you see the ad's in Todays West for another Options Course..including a Full Page Spread?
> 
> OPTIONS 21
> 
> TBI




Had a look at their website.

Well they don't promote covered calls as the quick and easy way to become the next Soros. So thats a good sign.

But for $4k for a weekend? 

To my mind an options course can only be of value if knowledge is trickle fed over a period of months. There is WAY too much to absorb in a weekend. So even if the quality of the information is quite good, it will largely be a waste of money.


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## wayneL

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> If anyone has there heart set on blowing a few k on a course I would suggest checking out www.options-university.com
> 
> Cheers




Just a correction to the URL and NOT a recommendation...information purposes only: www.optionsuniversity.com


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## Mofra

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



			
				The Barbarian Investor said:
			
		

> hi Wayne
> 
> Did you see the ad's in Todays West for another Options Course..including a Full Page Spread?
> 
> OPTIONS 21
> 
> TBI



Howdy,

I went to one of the introductory days a few months ago, it was refreshing to hear someone who skipped the basics and didn't even entertain the notion of options as being an "easy way to build capital" like some of the others seems to do.

Personally I would rather pay $300 for a few good books than pay 10 times that amount for the same information, but with coloured powerpoint slides.


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## Thinking

*Re: Optionetics Course- Is it good?*

Hi all,

Im new here and i would really appreciate your feedback on the Optionetics course as they are coming back in May 06 and i would love to get into Optionetics as it all sounds good but they will not give me any names as to people who have completed the 2 day course for $4k to see what they thought.

Sounds all too easy to make money but my gut says it cant be, so i need to know as many people as possible who have completed the course and whether they made lots of money?


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## sails

*Re: Optionetics Course- Is it good?*



			
				Thinking said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Im new here and i would really appreciate your feedback on the Optionetics course as they are coming back in May 06 and i would love to get into Optionetics as it all sounds good but they will not give me any names as to people who have completed the 2 day course for $4k to see what they thought.
> 
> Sounds all too easy to make money but my gut says it cant be, so i need to know as many people as possible who have completed the course and whether they made lots of money?



We did the 2 day course at least a couple of years ago now and while there is nothing wrong with their content, the price tag is enormously high for what you get when there is no guarantee that you can actually make money let alone keep the trading account you start with   .   And then be prepared to spend a few more thousand on software and subscriptions.  And then check out this link for all their seminars which teach you the more advanced techniques http://www.optionetics.com/products/seminars/store_seminars.asp  You will need deep pockets!  

Yes it is real easy to make money with options provided you pick the right conditions (and options are multi-dimensional), but *much easier to lose it*.    Out of all the contacts and people I met doing the course, I only know of two traders personally that took the 2 day course and were making money and one of them was a professional trader before doing the course.  We went to a local group meeting which eventually folded up due to lack of interest.   While I haven't heard from any in a while now, the last I knew is that most were disillusioned, had given up or had moved on to do other courses in the hopes of making it work.    

Anyway, have a look at the posts #11 and #12 in this thread - there are some links there that may help.  If options trading were that easy I'm sure this forum would be alive with successful option traders - but there is actually very little interest at all despite the large membership.

Sorry - this is probably not what you wanted to hear - but this has been our experience.  Feel free to PM me if you want more information.


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## LOVE_OPTION

*Re: Optionetics Course- Is it good?*

i think people here are trying to say, save your money, and use that money to buy book and test the market instead.
you will learn more this way. but it will take alots of time and hardship. to done well in option. i must master yourself most of all.
hope this help.


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## newman

*Re: Optionetics Course- Is it good?*

I went to the freebie - ie. long sales promo for the $4000 course - and got sucked in. I took the pack home and had a look at it.  It seemed to me there was just as good material to be got for free or from a few $30 books.  I took it back and got my refund.  It just didn't seem to be $$$ of value to me.  Maybe for others.


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## Nick Radge

*Re: Optionetics Course- Is it good?*

Good words newman.

Read Sheldon Natenberg's book "Option Volatility and Pricing" (and it's an easy read) at least 5 times and read Wayne's posts and blog. All up you'll be out of pocket $50 or so and yet ahead of the pack by a long margin.

If you have any questions PM me or I'm sure Wayne would be more than willing to help out. It'll save you several thousand $$ and I have no doubt that both of us have the knowledge/trading experience of at least those guys.


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## clancyfish

*optionetics*

Hi all,
I went to an optionetics free seminar (2hrs) yesterday for interests sake only and no intention of signing up for their $4,000 course.  It was an interesting to see this guy from the States doing an extremely hard sell on their product.  He basically spent 2 hours convincing every one that they could make a minimum of $50,000 a year and if you work up to 10 hrs a week on option, you could be looking at making $250,000.  He made the statement that because options are a leveraged instrument, the option will increase considerably more in value than the actual movement in the underlying share, so basically with a straddle you just can't lose unless it goes sideway and then you get out with a 15% loss.

What was sad about this whole event was that 60% of the audience would have been in their 70's and a few of them signed up.  The guy was really pressurising everyone by saying 'what part didn't you get about making lots of money?' when most of us didn't sign up.

oh well, predators everywhere.


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## wayneL

*Re: optionetics*



			
				clancyfish said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I went to an optionetics free seminar (2hrs) yesterday for interests sake only and no intention of signing up for their $4,000 course.  It was an interesting to see this guy from the States doing an extremely hard sell on their product.  He basically spent 2 hours convincing every one that they could make a minimum of $50,000 a year and if you work up to 10 hrs a week on option, you could be looking at making $250,000.  He made the statement that because options are a leveraged instrument, the option will increase considerably more in value than the actual movement in the underlying share, so basically with a straddle you just can't lose unless it goes sideway and then you get out with a 15% loss.
> 
> What was sad about this whole event was that 60% of the audience would have been in their 70's and a few of them signed up.  The guy was really pressurising everyone by saying 'what part didn't you get about making lots of money?' when most of us didn't sign up.
> 
> oh well, predators everywhere.




Thanks for the run down Clancy. As you know I've got an obsession with these types of clowns and the inaccurate bilge they spew forth.

But I'll refrain from an extended rant except to say that the long straddle is perhaps one of the most greeks sensitive strategies there is.

I went along to one of their 2hr seminars for a laugh a couple of years ago  and was horrified at what they were suggesting in regards to the straddle.

A good lesson in marketing though, very slick.


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## DTM

Yes totally agree that its not worth the money.  They sell on the greed factor and "you could be rich too with little or no work at all".  Unfortunately I was sucked in to spending thousands when a $30 book would have taught me more.


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## RichKid

DTM said:
			
		

> Yes totally agree that its not worth the money.  They sell on the greed factor and "you could be rich too with little or no work at all".  Unfortunately I was sucked in to spending thousands when a $30 book would have taught me more.




Hey DTM!

Haven't seen you here for a loooong time! Hope all is well and that your trading education is going well.

I find that worked examples are the best way to learn, Wayne's threads have been one of the best (thanks Wayne!), we've also got Magdoran willing to help people out so maybe more people will migrate from those crooks promising everything. Guy Bower's book has lots of sample questions and answers too. I really do feel sorry for these older people who may not recover from a catastrophic loss, ASIC should be sending observers to these meetings the same way Fair Trading and ACCC send people to check on businesses. Do we have to wait for another financial tragedy before they act? There will be many victims once this bullmarket is over...


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## Pager

I attended one of there free intro seminars in Sydney about 10 days ago.

Its all very slick and hard sell, the presenter was very good and by the end Options sounds like a no brainer and the path to untold wealth, then comes the sales pitch which I thought very clever, “How much” well $6K then a 5 min spiel on how much would you pay for learning so much, College Uni etc all mentioned and compared for value at this stage “But wait” sign up tonight for a special only $4K !!, “there’s more” sign up with a friend or your partner and they only pay $1500 !!!.

What do you get, a 2 day intensive seminar with 2 of the Worlds best options traders, 4 manuals that put the encyclopaedia Britannica to shame, 9 DVD’s, 8 Audio Cd’s, about 48 hours worth !, a money back guarantee (conditions apply).

By the end people were climbing over themselves to sign up, guy next to me asked if I wanted to be his partner and we would split the combined cost, I declined but he had no problems finding a taker.

There course may well give you a good idea of Options trading and the different stratagys but so might spending $30 or $40 on a book such as "Getting started in Options" by Michael Thomsett.

Cheers

Pager


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## TraderPro

RichKid said:
			
		

> Hey DTM!
> 
> Haven't seen you here for a loooong time! Hope all is well and that your trading education is going well.
> 
> I find that worked examples are the best way to learn, Wayne's threads have been one of the best (thanks Wayne!), we've also got Magdoran willing to help people out so maybe more people will migrate from those crooks promising everything. Guy Bower's book has lots of sample questions and answers too. I really do feel sorry for these older people who may not recover from a catastrophic loss, ASIC should be sending observers to these meetings the same way Fair Trading and ACCC send people to check on businesses. Do we have to wait for another financial tragedy before they act? There will be many victims once this bullmarket is over...





In my opinion - if you're really driven and determined to succeed and like to experiment and explore - you'll pick it up anyway. So I think the course is a rip off.

But I understand how others can use the course, people who don't have enough time to experiment - or are too scared... etc...

I also dislike the hard sell in these types of "free seminars" - but its simply the art of selling - they have been doing it for years - and it must work for drumming up business.

This company is an international one... here was one of the rip off sites I found:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff118527.htm


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## sails

With all these courses, I feel that what they teach is generally OK.  Optionetics does teach the basics in their 2 day seminar, but what they don't tell you at their introductory night is that the 2 day is only the beginning.  If you want to learn seriously about options, there are many, many more courses - all several thousand each.

It's the price tag that is overdone - something like paying $100 for an icecream - nothing wrong with the icecream itself - just overpriced.


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## Fugazi

I've almost finished listening to the (borrowed) optionetics cd's, and I've found them really good. But I have my reasons. There's a few important lessons I've learnt.

1. How to separate the marketing bull from the actual information (I think). I was a pretty reasonable salesman in a former life, and these guys can sell!!
2. An understanding of the terminology and some of the theory of options trading (I am a _complete_ novice)
3. If it sounds too easy, it probably is (a phrase I find I'm repeating very often to friends who are keeping up with my learning curve)
4. To do a search on ASF before I shell out for anything trading related.

My summation of the CD's: if you know absolutely nothing about options, it's a real convenient way to learn something. 2 weeks worth of commutes without dodgy DJ's telling me about the traffic & weather that I can't avoid anyway.

I reckon I will have a crack at options sooner or later, but it will be after a couple of $30-$50 books and lot of searches on this forum, not $4000 minimum spend with Optionetics


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## Pager

Recived this Email from Optionetics today   

Wow ive been offered a sure thing here   

 


This holiday season, give yourself a gift that could pay you dividends for years to come – wealth-building strategies from Optionetics. 

Regardless of your trading skill level or risk tolerance, our comprehensive curriculum can help you learn how to profit in the markets – and achieve a higher level of financial security than you have ever thought possible.
It all starts with the 2-day Optionetics Seminar!
(read below for an incredible time-sensitive tuition discount!)
This acclaimed educational event demystifies the world of options trading by breaking down key concepts into easily digestible pieces.
Avoiding overly theoretical or technically complicated material, our 2-day seminar reveals the core building blocks for making money in the markets, along with: 
more than two dozen high-profit, low-risk, low-stress trading strategies
insider tactics that professional traders use to find high-probability trades
tried-and-true secrets for entering and exiting trades 
trading techniques for up, down and sideways markets
keys to creating a fail-safe master trading plan
… and so much more!


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## Hopeful

Oh, you got the same mail I did , something like "claim your free gift now!" only to waste my time opening it to find that I have to pay them thousands of dollars to recieve my free gift. What is this wonderful gift you ask? It's a "discount", well gee thanks a lot.

I've got Fontanills' book already which I'm sure covers everything the seminar does, so why would anyone spend $ooo for something you can get for less than $100? Not to mention the many good free webinars out there. Why pay so much for it? Me no understand.


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## wayneL

Hopeful said:
			
		

> Oh, you got the same mail I did , something like "claim your free gift now!" only to waste my time opening it to find that I have to pay them thousands of dollars to recieve my free gift. What is this wonderful gift you ask? It's a "discount", well gee thanks a lot.
> 
> I've got Fontanills' book already which I'm sure covers everything the seminar does, so why would anyone spend $ooo for something you can get for less than $100? Not to mention the many good free webinars out there. Why pay so much for it? Me no understand.




Eggs Ackley!

I am quite sure you have already done so, but I would look further afield than Georgie Peorgie's book.


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## Jacobite

I attended the free seminar in Hong Kong last night.  It was a good sell, thankfully, with hindsight (and research), I am glad that the available training dates did not work for me 

Scott Lam was good, no doubt about it.  The story about his graddaughter though was OTT. 

In the end about 3 people put their hands up to sign-up straight-away (i wondered if they were plants).  I felt uneasy that it was such a hard-sell to sign-up straight away - if it was such a good concept, then why sell so hard to sign-up there and then? 

So I employed number 3 of the recommended investment skills that Scott advocated himself - RESEARCH!  I am glad I did, it seems that the 300% return or money back guarantee is not as straight as it seems.  It also seems like the investment required to get payback is beyond what I am currently willing to risk.

As a beginner, I still feel that Options as a concept is worth exploring more and could give some good return, so I will turn to the recommended books now and not to Optionetrics.


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## Mofra

Jacobite said:


> As a beginner, I still feel that Options as a concept is worth exploring more and could give some good return, so I will turn to the recommended books now and not to Optionetrics.



Howdy Jacobite,

Nick Radge's post #22 is as true today as when he wrote it.

As a part timer (concentrating on net credit spreads) I would probably be smack bang in their target market; however with a few books, WayneL's homepage & a fairly comprehensive trading diary, I doubt there is anything a slick course could offer you that would be worth either the dollars or time.


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## arthuryeo

Fugazi said:


> I've almost finished listening to the (borrowed) optionetics cd's, and I've found them really good. But I have my reasons. There's a few important lessons I've learnt.
> 
> 1. How to separate the marketing bull from the actual information (I think). I was a pretty reasonable salesman in a former life, and these guys can sell!!
> 2. An understanding of the terminology and some of the theory of options trading (I am a _complete_ novice)
> 3. If it sounds too easy, it probably is (a phrase I find I'm repeating very often to friends who are keeping up with my learning curve)
> 4. To do a search on ASF before I shell out for anything trading related.
> 
> My summation of the CD's: if you know absolutely nothing about options, it's a real convenient way to learn something. 2 weeks worth of commutes without dodgy DJ's telling me about the traffic & weather that I can't avoid anyway.
> 
> I reckon I will have a crack at options sooner or later, but it will be after a couple of $30-$50 books and lot of searches on this forum, not $4000 minimum spend with Optionetics




I am new here. I have reading all the threads on Optionetics and Platium Pursuits and agree that the cost is too steep. 

Is there anyone kind enough to lend me the course cds and notes. I would be happy to pass him my copy of  Rick Ottons Wrap Course, and The Trust Magic Book and a couple of options trading ebooks.  I will pay for all the couriers charges.

Thanks for your kind considerations.

Arthur
Melbourne.


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## Timmy

Ca va!

I am offering a course in learning to speak French (or another language if you prefer).  It is a weekend course and costs only $4,000.  I'll even chuck in some books and CDs.

Sounds ludicrous?  Yep.  But I think this is a good analogy, you wouldn't expect to learn a new language in a weekend, would you?  Maybe you can...but wouldn't you think you would more likely learn it over the course of months or a year?

OK, so you know my position on the weekend options course, now for a serious point.

A few years ago I went along to class for adults (they let me in anyway) to learn to speak French.  Once a week, for about 3 months (I think), plenty of homework, cost a few hundred dollars (I think, might have been less than$150).  I was going on holiday and wanted enough French just to get by.  I achieved my goal and have subsequently forgotten it all, but thats not the point.  

The point is that not everyone is going to learn from books and CDs, so spending $100 on some options texts is probably not going to be a successful strategy for many people.  There is a need for a middle ground, someone with good knowledge of options offering a course stretched over a few months, once a week, offered through a reputable learning organisation (I took my French course through WEA), costs maybe $150 - $200.  I don't see the person running the course making a lucrative career out of it, but the sort of person who wants a lucrative career selling options education is not the sort of person you would want running the course.

Anyway, just a thought.  And no, I wont be teaching it, my knowledge of options, while better than my knowledge of French, wouldn't cut it.

Au revoir (I still got it!)


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## wayneL

Come' ca va Timmy, great analogy.

If I can add a little bit too it; imagine taking a weekend course in French and then going to Paris to close a business deal with some snaky Parisian merchant.

_Yer gonna get shafted, because you won't know nearly enough._

So a weekend course is useless. A book(s) is/are better, but the only real way is through immersion. Get around option traders who know what they are doing (via internet if not in possible in person). Ask dumb questions on forums such as this (but remember the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked). The CBOE runs free online seminars. Do some paper trading and/or*small* scale real time trading. (I don't recommend paper trading on options)

Learn those bloody greeks like the back of your hand, contrary to what all the snake oil merchant will tell you, they really are the key to long term success; because whether you realize it or not, you *are* trading them.

It is often said that options profesionals are the meanest, nastiest and sneaky traders on the planet. I don't think that's true, they just know what they are doing and trade opportunities as they present themselves.

Salute! (I'm learning frog language at the moment too. So far I know how to order two baguettes from the baker  )


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## Timmy

wayneL said:


> If I can add a little bit too it; imagine taking a weekend course in French and then going to Paris to close a business deal with some snaky Parisian merchant.




Thank-you wayneL - that idea sounds ideal for the Advanced Course #1, conducted the following weekend.  Another $4,000 (plus airfares, accommodation and meals of course).


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## wayneL

Timmy said:


> Thank-you wayneL - that idea sounds ideal for the Advanced Course #1, conducted the following weekend.  Another $4,000 (plus airfares, accommodation and meals of course).




...and don't forget the $4,000 software!


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## GreenTreeFrog

wayneL said:


> Do some paper trading and/or*small* scale real time trading. (I don't recommend paper trading on options)
> 
> Learn those bloody greeks like the back of your hand, contrary to what all the snake oil merchant will tell you, they really are the key to long term success; because whether you realize it or not, you *are* trading them.




Hi - first time poster on here but regular on many other forums.

I attended an Optionetics seminar yesterday with someone who has been to them before. He was keen to sign up but I definitely was not. I found the presenter... creepy and sweaty. 

Anyway - I have ordered a couple of books that I have seen recommended several times:

The Psychology of Trading
Options as a Strategic Investment

I am hoping these books will help me start on the road to successfully trading options.

I was just wondering, wayneL, why you do not recommend paper trading options and can you explain more about getting to know Greeks. Do you mean
Theta, Delta etc? 

Thanks!


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## Boggo

The CBOE has a free downloadable interactive software that will teach you the greeks etc, well worth a look.

http://www.cboe.com/LearnCenter/Software.aspx

Mike


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## wayneL

GreenTreeFrog said:


> I was just wondering, wayneL, why you do not recommend paper trading options



Because of the shifting spread and that the last traded price does not represent the tradeable price.

It's not too bad if you can sit in front of a screen and take available bids and asks, otherwise it is just too easy to delude yourself



GreenTreeFrog said:


> and can you explain more about getting to know Greeks. Do you mean
> Theta, Delta etc?



Yes. Also how changes in price/time/volatility changes the behaviour of the greeks.

It's not rocket science, but it is more complicated than other derivatives and takes time to get it consolidated in your mind via the learning process. \/

unconscious incompetent => conscious incompetent => conscious competent => unconscious competent


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## cmh888

GreenTreeFrog said:


> I found the presenter... creepy and sweaty.




I had to laugh when I read this. I attended an introductory workshop this week. The next day I had 2 missed calls on my mobile phone and two emails asking for feedback. I decided that I could either give polite feedback or honest feedback. Here is the honest feedback I emailed back ... haven't heard back from them!?!

My feedback on the 2 hour free workshop is that I did learn a few things that I had not known previously, however I found the style of the presenter annoying and, at times, patronising. Given that this was an introduction to trading strategies for options and an invitation to attend further workshops, I was somewhat bemused when the presenter spoke so much about his own family, and was self-indulgent enough to even include their photographs in his slideshow. 

As someone who was interested in learning a bit more about options trading, I did take away a few new pieces of information, however did not expect to have to listen to a stranger rant about loving one another. Did he assume that those attending were somehow morally lacking and that it was his job to set them straight? More like a church service at times. I also found his ground rules and constant reference to his own sense of humour terribly tiresome. It is Optionetics who should be thankful for the attendance, not the other way around. 

Unfortunately for your company, I can spot a well-rehearsed salesman a mile off. The 'funny guy, family man who got rich, don't ask questions unless they are on my terms and I won't take a breath so you don't get the chance' approach is very transparent.


----------



## wayneL

cmh888 said:


> Unfortunately for your company, I can spot a well-rehearsed salesman a mile off. The 'funny guy, family man who got rich, don't ask questions unless they are on my terms and I won't take a breath so you don't get the chance' approach is very transparent.



It's a lot like an Amway presentation when you think about it.


----------



## mmonkey

Boggo said:


> The CBOE has a free downloadable interactive software that will teach you the greeks etc, well worth a look.
> 
> http://www.cboe.com/LearnCenter/Software.aspx
> 
> Mike




Thanks Mike for the URL, I heard people talking about (CBOE and fidelity) but I don't know where to find it.  I'll download their software and practice it!


----------



## porkpie324

*optionetics*

If this Q has been requested previously please forgive me.
  There is a series of introductory seminars being organised by Optionetrics, has anyone attended one and if so was it of value, also if any experianced option traders would like to comment on the above please do.
  I am thinking of options rather than CFD's in these present market conditions, after trading CFD's successfully for about 18 months up until Nov last year, I'm finding the market is not trending as well now making CFD's difficult, porkpie


----------



## peter2

Learning to trade options profitably takes a lot of work. There is a lot to learn. There is a lot to understand. Optionetics will sell you the education or you can buy the books recommended many times in this forum. Optionetics will sell you educational seminars and audio-visual aids which will explain most of the details and market requirements of each option strategy. You will be on your own with the books and will have to go though the option strategies in a very detailed manner. It depends on how you learn best, by being shown or finding out by yourself.

Directional trading is perhaps the easiest to start with. Do you have a profitable trading system already? Do you have software that will scan the market looking for the setups you want to trade?  If not, then you will need something and then you will have to learn how to use it efficiently. Scanning software is a necessary "tool of the trade". Optionetics will recommend one product, but there are many available. Do you understand what you may need and do you have the time to look?

The best way to understand the effect of the greeks is to backtest your trading setups and follow the value of multiple options day by day in concert with the price charts. You will need to do this over and over again for as many of your setups as possible. This will take a lot of time. You will need access to a database of historic option prices to backtest your trading strategies. Optionetics will sell you access to their database. I am sure there are others available, maybe even a free one somewhere. You will have to learn to use the option analysis software. Will you teach yourself or pay someone to help you?

The 2-hr sales pitch is just that. It aims to sign you up. Optionetics will provide a stack of useful information for you once you sign. Will this make you successful, absolutely not. IMO 90% of Optionetics students will not be profitable. You have to work damn hard to "get it". 

I was at one of the 2d seminars recently and there were a lot of people that have never traded shares. They signed up to make profits trading options, but know nothing about trading shares, know nothing about TA, know nothing of managing the risks in trading. It is going to be a long hard journey for many before they even get to the option "greeks". 

Are you prepared to work damn hard to become successful in this career?

----------------------------------

porkpie324: The market may not be trending, but there are a stack of cfd tradable shares that are in very good trends, some up, most down.


----------



## sophieyan

sails said:


> With all these courses, I feel that what they teach is generally OK.  Optionetics does teach the basics in their 2 day seminar, but what they don't tell you at their introductory night is that the 2 day is only the beginning.  If you want to learn seriously about options, there are many, many more courses - all several thousand each.
> 
> It's the price tag that is overdone - something like paying $100 for an icecream - nothing wrong with the icecream itself - just overpriced.




Yep, I think there are a lot more to be learned about it.  I was doing finance in the university, and most of courses are about derivatives. Spent at least one year to learn options. It is not that easy to get the whole piture in just two day courses.  Once you understand the whole thing, it is so much fund in it, like playing games.  The money you make is the money other people might lose.  I recently watch closely on the options of ausssie gold coys, like GBM, ALD, RND ect.  Get ready to make money!!!


----------



## robe4

Have done the optionetics basic course paid $260.00 for coursework books and c/ds, have had some luck with trading but rather get adviced from a broker who deals in options. You will find this on their website.


----------



## sophieyan

robe4 said:


> Have done the optionetics basic course paid $260.00 for coursework books and c/ds, have had some luck with trading but rather get adviced from a broker who deals in options. You will find this on their website.




Can u post the useful website? Thx


----------



## RichKid

sophieyan said:


> Yep, I think there are a lot more to be learned about it.  I was doing finance in the university, and most of courses are about derivatives. Spent at least one year to learn options. It is not that easy to get the whole piture in just two day courses.  Once you understand the whole thing, it is so much fund in it, like playing games.  The money you make is the money other people might lose.  I recently watch closely on the options of ausssie gold coys, like GBM, ALD, RND ect.  Get ready to make money!!!




Hi Sophie,

Welcome to ASF! You'll find lots of great threads in this Derivatives forum. It'll be interesting to see what you think of the material here in comparison to what you were taught at uni. Please feel free to contribute in those threads if you see something of interest.

btw, those co's you refer to suggest that you trade co issued options rather than eto's...is this correct? Just curious.


----------



## RichKid

sophieyan said:


> Can u post the useful website? Thx




Try googling it Sophie and please read the ASF Code of Conduct and Posting Guidelines please, this'll help you make the best of the site.


----------



## JHB888

After cancelling out a few times I finally went along to an Optionetics seminar at North Ryde the other day.  The presentation was certainly slick, perhaps too slick, options trading cannot be this simple and the idea of learning a complex subject in 2 days did not sit well with me at all, only one person of about 25 put their hand up so we all either missed the point or we were not quite as gullible as expected.  The slick 'this is my grandaughter' presenter also mentioned that the classes may have up to 250 people present.  How can you learn a complex subject in 2 days, how can you even grasp the basics with 250 other people?? 
No, for $4k I would expect a far more personal touch.  I have a 3 book set of Trading Essentials that I'm going to use instead, they seem to be quite comprehensive and well structured AND didn't cost me $4k.  Also Mr Snake Oil failed to mention the mega dollar software and advanced training I discovered only by doing my research and reading these blogs.  All in all $4k could well end up $4k++++++ which to me is unethical, misleading and very, very expensive.  Having said that, if the Optionetics course did deliver on its promise even $4k+++++ could be value for money.  But are you prepared to take the chance?  Not me.  If anyone has any experience with the Trading Essentials course I would appreciate some feedback.


----------



## Grinder

Yeah I cut my teeth on trading essentials awhile back (if it's by Brent Price that is) and found it to be an easy and enjoyable read in 3 modules that maps out the basics of option trading in a very simplied manner. However, tends to be alittle one dimmensional at times, from what I can remmember it was suited to the market a few years ago that is different to what is happening now. Either way, it's a good entry point to get you started.


----------



## JHB888

Thanks Grinder nice to know I'm on the right track, at least initially.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

Grinder said:


> Yeah I cut my teeth on trading essentials awhile back (if it's by Brent Price that is) and found it to be an easy and enjoyable read in 3 modules that maps out the basics of option trading in a very simplied manner. However, tends to be alittle one dimensional at times, from what I can remember it was suited to the market a few years ago that is different to what is happening now. Either way, it's a good entry point to get you started.




I also bought trading essentials, was a bit light on what it gave you for the price I felt but all in all I learnt a lot from it and I am happy I bought it. The second book on options and writing options strategies taught me a lot. Was set out in a very easy to understand manner as well.

What did u guy's think of the cci share buying method, I did have a few winning trades off it while the market was cursing up.


----------



## Grinder

>Apocalypto< said:


> What did u guy's think of the cci share buying method, I did have a few winning trades off it while the market was cursing up.




Didn't use it as wasn't doing any cc, but liked the idea of it.


----------



## section61

Hi all

This is my first time here, I went to the 2 hour free seminar the other day and it was quite interesting, probably because I don't know much about trading although already got two acounts (E-trade and CMC), but haven't started trading yet due to the fact that I don't know enough knowledge and money to start trading.

I thought the seminar was quite good and didn't sign up for the 2 day course yet due to the lack of extra cash.  I didn't sign up for that 2 day course, however the next day the salesman rang me and asking me what was the reason that didn't sign up, so i told him i don't have enough money.  So he offered me that they are having this special package offer which has the 2 CD and 2 books (but no 2 day course unless the purcahse the full packate), so i orded a couple of days later for $199 (the actuall cost was $500 but this is a special offer).  I should receive it on Monday and going to start reading ASAP.  the orignal full package was about $5995 or something, but people attended the free seminal received anohter $1800 discount.  Anyway, the salesman said, if i want to purchase the full package before the 15th and 16th of june for the 2 day seminar I would received a another $300 something off the already discounted price which turns out to be $3490 if i purcahse before the 15ht of June.

I don't know much about trading that's why I am here for and I don't know if i am being galiable or what.  But is it worth of my time and money.  They have those seminars and sounds like it's going to cost a lot of money if you make a big money out of their knowledge to be worth of attending their semiars later on.  I would like to hear what people have got to say about this.  Option trading sounds like fun, and the example they used in the freeseminar sounds not as risky as many would think provide follow the strategie or guideline.  

Am i being sucked in??? Please let me know know.  They also claimed that if you don't make 300% profit in 6 month you will get your money back, in my case i would have to make $9000 on top of $3000 (package cost).  I also briefly asked the guy on the phone, what's a good amount to if i was to follow their strategies and start trading which he said $2000 with $200 max per trade and spread out to 10 trades.  Does any one got any advice to what have mention here please feel free.  I am just here to learn and make money of course so I can do my own studies during the day and not have to have work too much which affects my studies. 

Cheers.


----------



## MRC & Co

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



wayneL said:


> But for $4k for a weekend?
> 
> To my mind an options course can only be of value if knowledge is trickle fed over a period of months. There is WAY too much to absorb in a weekend. So even if the quality of the information is quite good, it will largely be a waste of money.




Despite not having done the course, I think this statement is 100% true and most important for anybody looking to do an options course.

It took me a week of study just to get my head around some very basic strategies (spreads, naked puts, covered calls and DITM) and the lingo, let alone any depth of understanding.  In a weekend, would have gone straight over my head.


----------



## Trembling Hand

section61 said:


> Am i being sucked in??? Please let me know know.  They also claimed that if you don't make 300% profit in 6 month you will get your money back, in my case i would have to make $9000 on top of $3000 (package cost).  I also briefly asked the guy on the phone, what's a good amount to if i was to follow their strategies and start trading which he said $2000 with $200 max per trade and spread out to 10 trades.




Get that in writing so when you blow up after a couple of trades you can ask them for your money back.

10% of a tiny account in an options trade!! 
I want to be a market maker:dance:


----------



## sails

Trembling Hand said:


> Get that in writing so when you blow up after a couple of trades you can ask them for your money back.
> 
> 10% of a tiny account in an options trade!!
> I want to be a market maker:dance:




I don't think it's that's simple.  There used to be a number of trades that had to be completed in that time to qualify for a refund.  And then a trade was not just a trade.  I have heard that optionetics may consider a multi-legged strategy one trade in order to qualify for the refund - which is treated differently to broker statements. 

Found this on the ripoffreport site which explains about the refund policy in the past:  http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/118/RipOff0118527.htm.  If it has changed now, it would pay to read the fine print very carefully and get them to clarify in writing what they mean by one trade.

In any case, 36 trades in 26 weeks is a lot of trading for a total newbie and, to my knowledge, Optionetics don't offer to refund one's losses during this refund period - only the education cost.  This risk of large losses would be extremely high for new traders who have only completed the basic 2 day course.  Yes, it is only the starter course...

IMHO, 300% in 6 months is somewhat optimistic :headshake 

I have done the 2 day and then went to a local group of Optionetic students.  I only know of one that was making consistent money after 6 months and he was an ex bank trader of many years.  And he didn't use the Optionetic strategies we had been taught - he was purely a directional trader and just bought puts and calls


----------



## Grinder

Sec61,

I have'nt done the course so I won't comment on whether your being suckered in, but what I can say is options is'nt for everyone. You will soon find out if it's for you, as it takes time and commitment, much more than a short course. IMO if you find you are passionate about the learning process this will go along way.


----------



## kam75

I attended their free seminar about 3 years ago in Brisbane.  The presenter was the worst used car salesman I've ever seen.  My god, was he terrible.  There was over sign up for their course that night.  No one put their hand up!  I stayed behind and heavily questioned the salesmen regarding trading tactics, buy and sell signals etc.  These guys didn't even know what an in the money option is.  So I walked out, last.  

Look, I keep saying this to everyone I meet - Stay away from mobs that sell these courses.  There are no shortcuts to trading profitably.  No magic potions or indicators.  Its and art that you learn over time.  Go out and read a handful of books by reputable authors. Start with 'Reminiscences of a Stock Operator', by Edwin Le Fevre, and 'How I made 2 Million Dollars in the Stockmarket' by the master himself, Nicolas Darvas. 

Alternatively visit Google.com for sharesmadeeasy. A free trader's blog that may just show you what others charge 1000's of dollars for.


----------



## wayneL

kam75 said:


> I attended their free seminar about 3 years ago in Brisbane.  The presenter was the worst used car salesman I've ever seen.  My god, was he terrible.  There was over sign up for their course that night.  No one put their hand up!  I stayed behind and heavily questioned the salesmen regarding trading tactics, buy and sell signals etc.  These guys didn't even know what an in the money option is.  So I walked out, last.
> 
> Look, I keep saying this to everyone I meet - Stay away from mobs that sell these courses.  There are no shortcuts to trading profitably.  No magic potions or indicators.  Its and art that you learn over time.  Go out and read a handful of books by reputable authors. Start with 'Reminiscences of a Stock Operator', by Edwin Le Fevre, and 'How I made 2 Million Dollars in the Stockmarket' by the master himself, Nicolas Darvas.
> 
> Alternatively visit Google.com for sharesmadeeasy. A free trader's blog that may just show you what others charge 1000's of dollars for.




What does Darvas trading (basically bog standard trend trading) have to do with options?


----------



## kam75

wayneL said:


> What does Darvas trading (basically bog standard trend trading) have to do with options?




I use Darvas to time my trade entries and profit exits.


----------



## wayneL

kam75 said:


> I use Darvas to time my trade entries and profit exits.




So how are you meshing Darvas trading and options. Obviously going long delta, but how do options enhance your Darvas method over straight shares?


----------



## DennisTheTrader

I dont recommend Optionetics, but if you're really really interested in this course and dont want to fork out over $5K for it, 1 word   ......ebay


----------



## korrupt_1

I keep getting junk mail from them.

They send out these really important looking 'tickets' that have bar codes and numbers that makes them look really professional. ADMIT ONE... blah blah

Sent by OFF-PEAK MAIL - with URGENT(*) written on the front of the envelope.

These guys are no better than Reader Digest's Sweepstakes.... bunch of w@nker$...

Anyone doing a hard sell... telling you how easy it is to be rich... run in the oposite direction as fast as you can!!!


(*) Anyone sending an urgent mail... would not be sending it by off-peak... how dumb do these people think we are?


----------



## paulchow2k

Trembling Hand said:


> Get that in writing so when you blow up after a couple of trades you can ask them for your money back.
> 
> 10% of a tiny account in an options trade!!
> I want to be a market maker:dance:




Hey mate,
I also want to be a market maker. Spend about 3 months @ CBOE learning about options from the market maker and you should see the time decay value on their books! I hung with a very small time market maker and he makes US$30k per day and that's over the weekend while the market is close.

I'm back in australia so no longer interested in options in Oz. Gone back to equities....

Paul


----------



## wayneL

paulchow2k said:


> Hey mate,
> I also want to be a market maker. Spend about 3 months @ CBOE learning about options from the market maker and you should see the time decay value on their books! I hung with a very small time market maker and he makes US$30k per day *and that's over the weekend while the market is close.*



So lets all go long gamma over the weekend and close out Monday morning then.

Easy money?

You should have noticed that weekend theta is largely priced in by Friday close.


----------



## kam75

wayneL said:


> So how are you meshing Darvas trading and options. Obviously going long delta, but how do options enhance your Darvas method over straight shares?




For liquid stocks that show a large potential to the upside and form a Darvas Box, I will at place an order to purchase at or slightly in the money call options on the breakout of the Box. Will exit the position if my premium doubles or when my timestop is reached.

Regards
kam75
_____________________________
http://www.sharesmadeeasy.com


----------



## viviennet

Hi there - I went to the Optionetics 'Free Seminar' today in Perth. I'm glad I went but did not sign up to spend $4k on some CD's, DVD's and books. Options really interest me so I came home and did some research. Heaps is available - the ASX site is excellent and have learned a lot just this arvo. If you are keen enough you will find the info you need. There was no way I was going to sign up for the 2 day workshop and after reading these threads I am so glad I didn't. Wow "Mr Muffin Top" has a $36,000 watch that he wanted us to know about, and his 100 properties! yes its sad that his grandaughter has CF but making us say how beautiful she was TWICE was wierd, I wanted to show him a photo of my grandaughter then he would know what beautiful was! How come his wife was not up there for all of us to see, are they still together??Getting the people to stand up who were going to do the course and leaving us inferior people left to sit must be a way of feeding the fat boys ego and it left me cold so I just walked out! Typical American style crapiola!!


----------



## mazzatelli1000

viviennet said:


> Hi there - I went to the Optionetics 'Free Seminar' today in Perth. I'm glad I went but did not sign up to spend $4k on some CD's, DVD's and books. Options really interest me so I came home and did some research. Heaps is available - the ASX site is excellent and have learned a lot just this arvo. If you are keen enough you will find the info you need. There was no way I was going to sign up for the 2 day workshop and after reading these threads I am so glad I didn't. Wow "Mr Muffin Top" has a $36,000 watch that he wanted us to know about, and his 100 properties! yes its sad that his grandaughter has CF but making us say how beautiful she was TWICE was wierd, I wanted to show him a photo of my grandaughter then he would know what beautiful was! How come his wife was not up there for all of us to see, are they still together??Getting the people to stand up who were going to do the course and leaving us inferior people left to sit must be a way of feeding the fat boys ego and it left me cold so I just walked out! Typical American style crapiola!!




Alas --- ASF has saved a potential victim!!!!

I wish you well on your journey of options education


----------



## wayneL

viviennet said:


> and his 100 properties!



Poor bastard! :


----------



## kam75

viviennet said:


> Hi there - I went to the Optionetics 'Free Seminar' today in Perth. I'm glad I went but did not sign up to spend $4k on some CD's, DVD's and books. Options really interest me so I came home and did some research. Heaps is available - the ASX site is excellent and have learned a lot just this arvo. If you are keen enough you will find the info you need. There was no way I was going to sign up for the 2 day workshop and after reading these threads I am so glad I didn't. Wow "Mr Muffin Top" has a $36,000 watch that he wanted us to know about, and his 100 properties! yes its sad that his grandaughter has CF but making us say how beautiful she was TWICE was wierd, I wanted to show him a photo of my grandaughter then he would know what beautiful was! How come his wife was not up there for all of us to see, are they still together??Getting the people to stand up who were going to do the course and leaving us inferior people left to sit must be a way of feeding the fat boys ego and it left me cold so I just walked out! Typical American style crapiola!!





These salesmen use all sorts of emotional tactics to make you buy.  Good to hear you did not get conned in!

Regards
kam75
_____________________________
http://www.sharesmadeeasy.com


----------



## Aussiest

viviennet said:


> Hi there - I went to the Optionetics 'Free Seminar' today in Perth. I'm glad I went but did not sign up to spend $4k on some CD's, DVD's and books. Options really interest me so I came home and did some research. Heaps is available - the ASX site is excellent and have learned a lot just this arvo. If you are keen enough you will find the info you need. There was no way I was going to sign up for the 2 day workshop and after reading these threads I am so glad I didn't. Wow "Mr Muffin Top" has a $36,000 watch that he wanted us to know about, and his 100 properties! yes its sad that his grandaughter has CF but making us say how beautiful she was TWICE was wierd, I wanted to show him a photo of my grandaughter then he would know what beautiful was! How come his wife was not up there for all of us to see, are they still together??Getting the people to stand up who were going to do the course and leaving us inferior people left to sit must be a way of feeding the fat boys ego and it left me cold so I just walked out! Typical American style crapiola!!




Wow, it sounds like the Landmark Forum. And, like a sales guy i recently encountered. They try to make you think there is something 'wrong' with you for not joining in.

I haven't been to an Optionetics seminar, but seeing it's adds on tv put me off.


----------



## DORA

I was at the same seminar.. I do not understand why are people so upset by this salesman?  Do you have to like a salesperson to by the product? What if he was different and fit all your expectations? Would the product be any different? Would you by it?


----------



## wayneL

DORA said:


> I was at the same seminar.. I do not understand why are people so upset by this salesman?  Do you have to like a salesperson to by the product? What if he was different and fit all your expectations? Would the product be any different? Would you by it?



Perhaps there was a suspicion that he wasn't being completely honest.


----------



## DORA

Honest salesman?!


----------



## mazzatelli1000

DORA said:


> I was at the same seminar.. I do not understand why are people so upset by this salesman?  Do you have to like a salesperson to by the product? What if he was different and fit all your expectations? Would the product be any different? Would you by it?




Please spare us

Snake oil alert


----------



## Aussiest

DORA said:


> Do you have to like a salesperson to by the product?




And 'by' the way, it's 'buy', not by.

No wonder you were sucked in by him..


----------



## aacantona

*Re: Optionetrics - Dodgy?*



MRC & Co said:


> Despite not having done the course, I think this statement is 100% true and most important for anybody looking to do an options course.
> 
> It took me a week of study just to get my head around some very basic strategies (spreads, naked puts, covered calls and DITM) and the lingo, let alone any depth of understanding.  In a weekend, would have gone straight over my head.




2 days, a few weeks...i've spent the last 4 years effectively studying and writing about options markets. The best that a 2-day course can offer you is a pamphlet-like education.


----------



## DORA

I was not “sucked in” by this man, but I was not irritated by him either. I ”know” that they are all great family men, with hundreds of properties, and that they are soooo rich that they do not have to work, but they chose to because they love it. I also think that was very bizarre to show photos of his family. But, I did not care about him. I wanted to see what is offered by this company, and yes, I sign in and bought the homestudy knowing that I can bring it back on the first seminar and get the full refund if I did not like it. I have watched first dvd (twice) so far and I think it is really great. 
By the way, English is not my first language and I am sure that you will find more spelling mistakes in my posts. .


----------



## wayneL

DORA said:


> I have watched first dvd (twice) so far and I think it is really great.




Compared too....?


----------



## Derived

The guy who is promoting all aspects of Optionetics is probably working for them. Poor way to promote my friend. I trade options myself, I took crash course that cost me about 3,500 dollars over about 8 months. Everyone and anyone who has access to a computer can access this course, (and some funds of course!). It's called, "do it yourself". Trading on the market CANNOT be done successfully without some intial losses, (smarter ones tend to minimise these losses from the outset) however, every single trade you lose YOU MUST learn from. Simple as that. Google some good trading tools, such as William Gann. I'll tell you because if we all eventually follow some similar rules - which traders generally due - then the art of auto-suggestion works even better and better ... (etc) - new traders become 'seasoned' traders and the more 'experienced' ones tend to make more money. I love trading because the more you trade the more you learn - don't forget that you are part of the market you trade in, don't try to outsmart or predict it. Simple logic will always outwit. I have learnt this. In the first few months of trading I read about 5 books, then I traded - broke even for a few months, lost a few, made a few, now i am consistently closing above 3-5K a month. Not bad for 3years  trading while studying full time.


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## StockLearner001

I recently attended a free seminar of Optionetics. As an special offer for those who joins the course on that night, they guaranteed to return your course fee if you donot earn 300% of course fee within 6 months following their strategy. I just enlisted my name without paying anything and supposed to pay them by next Tuesday i.e. 18/11/2008 to avail the offer and guarantee. After reading all the comments about Optionetics, feeling really confused about the course. 

Any one of you have any idea about this offer ? I mean it seems like ok to try the course with 4K and get back your money if it doesn't provide you with the guaranteed return. 

Appreciate your comments.

Thanks.

Wahab


----------



## brty

Stocklearner,

Have you actually read this thread??

The waste of your time and money is explained on the previous page. You may get the education money back, but they will not pay for your losses.

Read the whole thread!!

brty


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## StockLearner001

Derived said:


> The guy who is promoting all aspects of Optionetics is probably working for them. Poor way to promote my friend. I trade options myself, I took crash course that cost me about 3,500 dollars over about 8 months. Everyone and anyone who has access to a computer can access this course, (and some funds of course!). It's called, "do it yourself". Trading on the market CANNOT be done successfully without some intial losses, (smarter ones tend to minimise these losses from the outset) however, every single trade you lose YOU MUST learn from. Simple as that. Google some good trading tools, such as William Gann. I'll tell you because if we all eventually follow some similar rules - which traders generally due - then the art of auto-suggestion works even better and better ... (etc) - new traders become 'seasoned' traders and the more 'experienced' ones tend to make more money. I love trading because the more you trade the more you learn - don't forget that you are part of the market you trade in, don't try to outsmart or predict it. Simple logic will always outwit. I have learnt this. In the first few months of trading I read about 5 books, then I traded - broke even for a few months, lost a few, made a few, now i am consistently closing above 3-5K a month. Not bad for 3years  trading while studying full time.





Thanks BRTY. Derived appreciate if you please provide the particulars of the books you followed to have some ideas. Coz, theres whole lot of books out there and it is really difficult to select a few good ones. ASX education seems to me quite helpful. Planning to read some more on options and being an experienced person you are now, value your suggestion.


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## cutz

Hi,

Some suggested reading on options,

Options, A Complete Guide For Australian Investors and Traders, - Bower, this book is a good primer, Options As A Strategic Investment - McMillan, this book gets you in the mood and if you still can't get enough, Options Volatilty And Pricing - Natenberg. All available from the ASF bookshop.

Cutz.


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## OzWaveGuy

Some thoughts: 

Some Stockmarket courses use emotive techniques to make you 'feel good' and to coerce you into believing you can walk out with everything you need, even a 'support group' to help you when you have doubts (although they can't recommend you buy or sell), nice music, great videos etc etc. The courseware is pre-prepared so every trade is 'obvious' and the exit is obvious as well.

Whilst many courses provide a level of value to the beginner, they do not necessarily turn a beginner into a knowledgeable investor or trader once the feel good weekend is over.

I do not personally dislike these courses, having done one many years ago it was beneficial -  however you need to understand that this will be one step in a multi-step process to become proficient in what your seeking to achieve.

Many courses are simply a business, the instructor may or may not be a trader. For many, it's easier pulling 100 people into a 2 day course for $2500 a head and earning a cool 250k (before expenses) with very little risk v's earning 250k on the market (esp under the current market conditions).

In summary - plan out your strategy, talk to people who have been thru the course. Research the instructors, you should look for ones that are solid professional traders that will help you with YOUR style of investing or trading. Avoid the 'feel good' courses.


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## StockLearner001

cutz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some suggested reading on options,
> 
> Options, A Complete Guide For Australian Investors and Traders, - Bower, this book is a good primer, Options As A Strategic Investment - McMillan, this book gets you in the mood and if you still can't get enough, Options Volatilty And Pricing - Natenberg. All available from the ASF bookshop.
> 
> Cutz.




Thanks alot. These will keep busy for some time. Thanks again.


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## jackson8

StockLearner001 said:


> Thanks alot. These will keep busy for some time. Thanks again.




if you have shareware program you will be able to find the ebook written by george a fontanills  ...........one of or the founder of the optionetics course

with 576 pages it basically covers everything that you would probaly pay thousands for


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## StockLearner001

jackson8 said:


> if you have shareware program you will be able to find the ebook written by george a fontanills  ...........one of or the founder of the optionetics course
> 
> with 576 pages it basically covers everything that you would probaly pay thousands for




Thanks Jackson. I ll try to find it tonight.


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## chris2009

Hi all,

Thanks for all the info about Optionetics i was thinking about getting the course and went to a seminar. I didn't get the course and i agree that there are other sources for the information. I want to ask if anyone knows of any investment clubs around Melbourne where people get together to exchange ideas and knowledge about options? I am readings lots of materials but i find it hard to get information on things like, what software people use to analyse options, or what a good broker is and what are good or bad fees for trading options. I came across the "thinkorswimm & eTrade" brokers on the net that look interesting to me anyone got any feedback or suggestions on good brokers and trading tools? 

any advise is much appreciated.


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## sails

chris2009 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for all the info about Optionetics i was thinking about getting the course and went to a seminar. I didn't get the course and i agree that there are other sources for the information. I want to ask if anyone knows of any investment clubs around Melbourne where people get together to exchange ideas and knowledge about options? I am readings lots of materials but i find it hard to get information on things like, what software people use to analyse options, or what a good broker is and what are good or bad fees for trading options. I came across the "thinkorswimm & eTrade" brokers on the net that look interesting to me anyone got any feedback or suggestions on good brokers and trading tools?
> 
> any advise is much appreciated.




Hoadley has good options software.  The basic version of his Options Strategy Evaluation Tool is free: http://www.hoadley.net/options/strategymodel.htm.  There are lots of demos on the site and a lot of info on options as well.  

The basic version is a good starting point, however, after a while you may find you need the paid version which entitles you to updates for one year.  

Australian brokers are difficult because of their high fees and the difficulty of being able to trade option spreads on line.  Some of them don't seem to understand option exercise/assignment and charge horrendously high fees on exercised/assigned stock. 

 IB would have to be the best on fees especially for small lots, but I have found customer service can be a bit more difficult.  Also, if trading options with IB, you do have to fully understand their policy on option assignment and, to the best of my knowledge, you only have the first 10 minutes of the day to deal with it before IB starts randomly closing out your other positions.

There's been a lot written about brokers already at ASF - and some of it fairly recent - try doing some searches to see what you can find.


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## long88

here is my 2 cents on optionetics/options market.

after attending their seminar, and asking for a refund (which i got), i am still today learning on how to pull money out of market.

so far i have donated some $$, although I do have some big winner as well, (Maybe i should have really join optionetics heh ?) key here is cut the losses and let winner run.

What i have found out so far is, all of the material given on 2 day seminar is just a basic stuff, they cover basic strategy which is enough to get you going, nothing more (you need to pay more for their software, advanced classes).

What i think more important is:

- Technical analysis (Macd, ADX, DMI+, DMI-, stocastic), standard deviation probability.
- Greek (especially volatility)
- How fast is the market/vehicle going to be.
- Direction Forecast (up, down sideways).

After checking all above, apply the strategy that is suitable according to your forecast. There is no right or wrong answer, only money to be made or loss.

it is not an easy game, as we are playing against all the smart player out there.

Hoadley software is ok, but i find that i can only do 4 legs, cannot do 6 legs (although there is section for it, but the result are not accurate).



go to www.cboe.com 

I find  lot more knowledge over there than any other sites, pay attention to dan sheridan tv and his greeks (make sure you understand "The Greek" effects).

Hope this helps people who is starting out.

Cheers


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## sails

long88 said:


> ...
> Hoadley software is ok, but i find that i can only do 4 legs, cannot do 6 legs (although there is section for it, but the result are not accurate)....




Are you only using the free Hoadley version?  That could explain why you can't get the six legs to work.  The free version only allows four legged strategies.


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## long88

sails said:


> Are you only using the free Hoadley version?  That could explain why you can't get the six legs to work.  The free version only allows four legged strategies.





yes it is free one so far, as i am using optionsxpress for most of the payoff diagram.

and i calculate greek by hand (excel).

Is Hoadley one is accurate in terms of calculating greeks ? i find it a bit hard to get a match between the market price and theoretical price that is quoted on hoadley, that is why i still havent pay for it.


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## sails

long88 said:


> yes it is free one so far, as i am using optionsxpress for most of the payoff diagram.
> 
> and i calculate greek by hand (excel).
> 
> Is Hoadley one is accurate in terms of calculating greeks ? i find it a bit hard to get a match between the market price and theoretical price that is quoted on hoadley, that is why i still havent pay for it.




All the imputs into Hoadley must be correct.  I don't have Hoadley loaded up at present, but will let you know the imputs I use when I get time.  

To get a match between market price and theo price in Hoadley, you must have the correct amount of volatility entered.  (Hoadley can work out the IV for you based on the current market price - there are buttons for this purpose - they are positioned in the upper right hand on my Hoadley screen.)  Dividends and xdiv dates must also be properly entered if they are applicable to the stock you are analysing.


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## long88

sails said:


> All the imputs into Hoadley must be correct.  I don't have Hoadley loaded up at present, but will let you know the imputs I use when I get time.
> 
> To get a match between market price and theo price in Hoadley, you must have the correct amount of volatility entered.  (Hoadley can work out the IV for you based on the current market price - there are buttons for this purpose - they are positioned in the upper right hand on my Hoadley screen.)  Dividends and xdiv dates must also be properly entered if they are applicable to the stock you are analysing.




Thx for that, it looks like it is worth purchasing now.


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## sails

long88 said:


> Thx for that, it looks like it is worth purchasing now.




I don't subscribe every year as one gets 12 months of downloads and the software continues to work even after the subscription runs out.  You just can't continue to download upgrades for free after 12 months. 

I found Hoadley great for playing around with different strategy ideas before deciding to run live with them or not.  Loved the comparison ability and the volatility analysis diagrams.  There a a lot of very useful features - have a look at the demos on the Hoadley site for more info.


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## long88

sails said:


> I don't subscribe every year as one gets 12 months of downloads and the software continues to work even after the subscription runs out.  You just can't continue to download upgrades for free after 12 months.
> 
> I found Hoadley great for playing around with different strategy ideas before deciding to run live with them or not.  Loved the comparison ability and the volatility analysis diagrams.  There a a lot of very useful features - have a look at the demos on the Hoadley site for more info.




i am already using it, just for the sake of payoff diagram (for aussie market).

although i can see how the volatility impact by playing on the numbers. but i never get the theoretical value to match trading value, moreover the market here is aus so wide in spread, always lose on buying and selling. god damm the market maker.


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## sails

long88 said:


> i am already using it, just for the sake of payoff diagram (for aussie market).
> 
> although i can see how the volatility impact by playing on the numbers. but i never get the theoretical value to match trading value, moreover the market here is aus so wide in spread, always lose on buying and selling. god damm the market maker.




Yeah, that's one of the many downsides of the Aus market.  I am finding limited opportunities with options here in Aus, however, trading at night is out of the question at the moment, so I'm stuck with the what we've got here.  

Bid/ask spreads are wider than normal - certainly not helped by the current elevated IVs.  If you are trading something like BHP, it is sometimes worth watching market depth closely for another retail trader on the opposite side who is coming in closer to that mid point.  I have often been able to get better prices by being patient and waiting for such an opportunity.  It really depends on how urgently you need to get the deal done.

Also, I have found if the MMs think you are a bit desperate, they will play harder to get.  It's a bit of a tactical game, IMO


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## long88

sails said:


> Yeah, that's one of the many downsides of the Aus market.  I am finding limited opportunities with options here in Aus, however, trading at night is out of the question at the moment, so I'm stuck with the what we've got here.
> 
> Bid/ask spreads are wider than normal - certainly not helped by the current elevated IVs.  If you are trading something like BHP, it is sometimes worth watching market depth closely for another retail trader on the opposite side who is coming in closer to that mid point.  I have often been able to get better prices by being patient and waiting for such an opportunity.  It really depends on how urgently you need to get the deal done.
> 
> Also, I have found if the MMs think you are a bit desperate, they will play harder to get.  It's a bit of a tactical game, IMO





hi sails, here is what i done. i sleep at around 11 or 12 at night, then woke up at 5:30 or 6 in the morning, and US market is still open.

remember last 2-3 hour will determine the outlook for tomorrow, you dont have to be awake to follow the market direction, there is nothing we can do anyway to control it, just flow with it, set your stop loss at the same time if your outlook not changed.

cheers


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## wayneL

FYI - Lifted from another forum, but do not know the source:



> ...
> Was Fontanills really Wall Street's most respected hedge-fund manager? I asked the optionsXpress chief. "He ran a hedge fund that generated very nice returns for the years it was open," Fisher said. After saying Fontanills -- who still runs seminars under contract -- isn't an optionsXpress employee, Fisher's firm sent me 17 books by Fontanills and put me in touch with Chicago Board Options Exchange educator Jim Bittman, who said he taught similar techniques.
> 
> OptionsXpress gave me excerpts from a 2001 letter that Fontanills sent to investors in his Pinnacle Investments of America fund. These showed gains of 48% for 1998 and 83% for 1999, and a 24% loss for 2000. There was no mention of how much money was involved.
> 
> The fund's account custodian was a Salomon Smith Barney broker in Hallandale, Fla., named Jose A. Gomez -- Fontanills' friend and cousin. But e-mails from Fontanills to Gomez's boss on Sept. 10, 2001, show that Fontanills was trying to stop Smith Barney from liquidating his fund's account. "This will cause serious losses," wrote Fontanills, "and will essentially put us out of business." Neither Smith Barney nor the Options Clearing Corporation knew how to price his positions, Fontanills argued. Fontanills says he prevented big losses by moving the account.
> 
> In 2002, Smith Barney fired Gomez and the NASD then barred him for failing to provide information to investigators. (Barron's couldn't determine the nature of the inquiry.)
> 
> Fontanills ultimately closed the hedge fund, he says. "Managing money for other people is different from managing your own money," he told me in an interview.
> 
> The Bottom Line
> OptionsXpress shares look overvalued after a strong run. The firm's bid to boost growth by buying a seminar group seems ill-advised, based on the record of the group's founder.
> 
> But Fontanills came to grief managing his own money, too. In June 2003, he opened a New York account with the French-owned broker Fimat. By November, according to a complaint Fimat filed in Manhattan's federal court, Fontanills had run up losses of more than $6 million. When he refused to honor margin calls, Fimat liquidated his positions and sued him for the $6 million. Fontanills again argued Fimat didn't know how to price his sophisticated options strategy or calculate the margin requirements. The dispute wound up before arbitrators, who ordered Fontanills to pay Fimat $1.8 million with costs. He paid.
> 
> ...
> After 10 years of applying his Optionetics strategies, Fontanills' wealth wasn't what you might expect. When opening his Fimat account in 2003, he listed his net worth as $4 million. Four months earlier, his sworn financial statement in a Massachusetts divorce court represented his personal net worth as $7,150, plus another $473,500 in a trading business. His annual income, he told the court, was less than $15,000.
> 
> "Both financial statements were correct at the time they were made," Fontanills said in an e-mail last week. He has a new trading business, incorporated in the name of his current wife, called the Robo Trader Algorithmic Trading Fund.
> ...


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## mazzatelli

Ugh, looks like he is resorting to algos and high freq. IMO the quant model is dead.


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## wayneL

wayneL said:


> FYI - Lifted from another forum, but do not know the source:




Here is the source of the Fontanills excerpt:

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB125392859854942915.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoobarrons


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## Menage

I did my Options study through Options University in the USA ( via correspondance & CDs etc) very very good theory from Random walk, Bell Curve, Options pricing, Greeks ( inc secondary) & every strategy commonly used.After this study I knew a lot about options but did not have a clue about Trading & in fact had never placed a trade in my life so I then did a 3 month mentoring course with Paul Wise at Options 21, during this curve I learnt how to trade, read charts, identify patterns etc & today some 8 months later I am doing pretty well with my Options trading, the beauty of it is that I am doing it all & nil brokers are giving me suspect recomendations. Yes it cost me a few Grand all up but I dont believe it would add up to more than an Optionetics education. I have not done Optionetics so I cant comment however I can tell you that the above two providers are well worth every cent that I spent with them.


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## wayneL

Menage said:


> I did my Options study through Options University in the USA ( via correspondance & CDs etc) very very good theory from Random walk, Bell Curve, Options pricing, Greeks ( inc secondary) & every strategy commonly used.After this study I knew a lot about options but did not have a clue about Trading & in fact had never placed a trade in my life so I then did a 3 month mentoring course with Paul Wise at Options 21, during this curve I learnt how to trade, read charts, identify patterns etc & today some 8 months later I am doing pretty well with my Options trading, the beauty of it is that I am doing it all & nil brokers are giving me suspect recomendations. Yes it cost me a few Grand all up but I dont believe it would add up to more than an Optionetics education. I have not done Optionetics so I cant comment however I can tell you that the above two providers are well worth every cent that I spent with them.



From what I've seen of Ron Ianeri, I have a lot of time for him. He seems very genuine in teaching people what they need to know.

Never heard of Paul Wise, but looking at their site, they look pretty genuine too. Expensive, but you get Optionvue thrown in with the cost by the look of it.

IMO a different kettle of fish to The Big O and the pathetic dross that is generally available in Oz.

Good luck with it, sounds like you got a great start.


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