# University killing in USA



## bel532 (17 April 2007)

When will the Americans learn that guns kill?

They need a strong person like John Howard with the determination to withstand the assault from some in his own constituency and change the gun laws. It hasn't been perfect but it's been a change in the right direction.

Before people become too virtuous just remember we had our own massacres in the Melbourne suburb of Clifton Hill and Tasmania. We should grieve for all those families who are in pain from the loss of loved ones.


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## Mousie (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> we had our own massacres in the Melbourne suburb of Clifton Hill and Tasmania. We should grieve for all those families who are in pain from the loss of loved ones.




Not to forget the Monash Uni killings in 2002; I was asleep in the halls when it happened though


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## constable (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> When will the Americans learn that guns kill?
> 
> They need a strong person like John Howard with the determination to withstand the assault from some in his own constituency and change the gun laws. It hasn't been perfect but it's been a change in the right direction.
> 
> Before people become too virtuous just remember we had our own massacres in the Melbourne suburb of Clifton Hill and Tasmania. We should grieve for all those families who are in pain from the loss of loved ones.




After this years federal election they can have him!


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

constable said:


> After this years federal election they can have him!




When Johhny has gone we will remember him with nostalgia as a period when 'We never had it so good'!

I wonder if the Labour Party will stuff up the economy a la Whitlam. Who knows, maybe it has learnt something from that disastrous period when money seemed to drop from trees and they chased the 'funny money' trail a la Khemlani. Hawke and Keating certainly did, so there is some hope!


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## constable (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> When Johhny has gone we will remember him with nostalgia as a period when 'We never had it so good'!
> 
> I wonder if the Labour Party will stuff up the economy a la Whitlam. Who knows, maybe it has learnt something from that disastrous period when money seemed to drop from trees and they chased the 'funny money' trail a la Khemlani. Hawke and Keating certainly did, so there is some hope!




Turn it up, a three year old could have ridden the commodity boom that the liberals have unsurpisingly put down to great fiscal policy. 
Regardless of that its going to be a tough ride who ever runs the government next.


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## Julia (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> When Johhny has gone we will remember him with nostalgia as a period when 'We never had it so good'!
> 
> I wonder if the Labour Party will stuff up the economy a la Whitlam. Who knows, maybe it has learnt something from that disastrous period when money seemed to drop from trees and they chased the 'funny money' trail a la Khemlani. Hawke and Keating certainly did, so there is some hope!




Does ramping count if it's political rather than stock related????


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## krisbarry (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> When will the Americans learn that guns kill?




What a stupid comment, guns don't kill, people kill


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## krisbarry (17 April 2007)

Its about time governments impliment in schools a "mental health" subject and start to assess mentaly unstable people at a very young age.

Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.

Humans are not like robots....given enough stress, bad experiences in life etc and access to weapons, any sain person can become unstable and let loose.

The trick is to teach stabilitly in the mind, no mater the circumstances.


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## Mousie (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Its about time governments impliment in schools a "mental health" subject and start to assess mentaly unstable people at a very young age.
> 
> Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.
> 
> ...




God help us if there're anymore governmentalisation of every little issue that crops up every now and again.

Don't you guys see the point? It's isolated incidents like this that the government pounces on to seize what little is left of our privacy inch by inch till it gets a mile high. Every little tragedy, legislate this. Every little discontentment, legislate that. It's a no-brainer: "we're just doing what the people say they want us to do" else they'll not get votes (and money and power)!

As for mentality courses? C'mon...enforced subjects are the reason why I hated going to school. Get 'em kids out in the real world ASAP to see what life's all about is what I say!


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

constable said:


> Turn it up, a three year old could have ridden the commodity boom that the liberals have unsurpisingly put down to great fiscal policy.
> Regardless of that its going to be a tough ride who ever runs the government next.





Turn it up, there was a commodity boom in the 70's during Whiltam's time and he and his party, inspite of the boom, was able to stuff it up. Whilst one can't deny that the present minng boom has helped the current Government, it also true that it came into power BEFORE the current boom (three years out of eleven) . Remember how, during that period, and before the mining boom, we rode through the SE Asian economic crisis?

That is not to say that the present Government has done everything perfectly, economically speaking, but that is never going to happen, no matter which Government is in power. I really thought that the First Owners Grant was a bad mistake and contributed to the steep rise in property values, which, whilst it was well appreciated by property owners, has made it very difficult for those on the 'first rung' to aquire a home. And, of course, there was all that money thrown around to persuade women to have more babies!

It's not a perfect world!


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## Julia (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Its about time governments impliment in schools a "mental health" subject and start to assess mentaly unstable people at a very young age.
> 
> Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.
> 
> ...




Oh, Lord, what else will we expect governments and/or the education system to do for us?

Whilst it's undoubtedly possible to teach stress control techniques, much of the mental illness which provokes such pathological behaviour as this would simply not be managed with such measures.


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## Wysiwyg (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Its about time governments impliment in schools a "mental health" subject and start to assess mentaly unstable people at a very young age.
> 
> Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.
> 
> ...




Man that is powerful truth.

No one is made aware of the reasoning behind these events and smaller lead up events.

Are the causes and antagonists ever the victim.No, it is everyones fault and they won`t hurt me any more.


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## constable (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Turn it up, there was a commodity boom in the 70's during Whiltam's time and he and his party, inspite of the boom, was able to stuff it up. Whilst one can't deny that the present minng boom has helped the current Government, it also true that it came into power BEFORE the current boom (three years out of eleven) . Remember how, during that period, and before the mining boom, we rode through the SE Asian economic crisis?
> 
> That is not to say that the present Government has done everything perfectly, economically speaking, but that is never going to happen, no matter which Government is in power. I really thought that the First Owners Grant was a bad mistake and contributed to the steep rise in property values, which, whilst it was well appreciated by property owners, has made it very difficult for those on the 'first rung' to aquire a home. And, of course, there was all that money thrown around to persuade women to have more babies!
> 
> It's not a perfect world!




Sound like your older than me bel so correct me if im wrong but wasn't much of australia's pain back then the result of Whitlam stripping industry of protective tarrifs? If thats the case then it was really labor that set up the level playing field policy the same one that Howard so often promotes as his parties own.
Dont get me wrong I think both the major partys suck.


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## dhukka (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> *They need a strong person like John Howard with the determination to withstand the assault from some in his own constituency* and change the gun laws.




This has to be the funniest thing I've read today and possibly this month although I did just finish reading American Psycho so proabably not this month but definitely today.



bel532 said:


> We should grieve for all those families who are in pain from the loss of loved ones.




Why should we?


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

dhukka said:


> This has to be the funniest thing I've read today and possibly this month although I did just finish reading American Psycho so proabably not this month but definitely today.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should we?




Don't you like the truth? Maybe it hurts too much.


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## dhukka (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Don't you like the truth? Maybe it hurts too much.




The truth? Well the truth can be relative but here is my version of it. John Howard is a lying, weak, emasculated whelp with his face firmly implanted in the illiterate chimp G.W. Bush's ********. He has consistently lied on various issues and went against public opinion to send troops to Iraq the justification for which was based on more lies. Little Johnny boy was in the right place at the right time and any suggestion that Australia's current prosperity has anything to do with Liberal party politics is a joke. 

No I'm not a sychophantic labour supporter, I'm of the same opinion as constable that both major parties bite big time.


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## constable (17 April 2007)

dhukka said:


> The truth? Well the truth can be relative but here is my version of it. John Howard is a lying, weak, emasculated whelp with his face firmly implanted in the illiterate chimp G.W. Bush's ********. He has consistently lied on various issues and went against public opinion to send troops to Iraq the justification for which was based on more lies. Little Johnny boy was in the right place at the right time and any suggestion that Australia's current prosperity has anything to do with Liberal party politics is a joke.
> 
> No I'm not a sychophantic labour supporter, I'm of the same opinion as constable that both major parties bite big time.




"emasculated whelp" ....i like it!


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

constable said:


> "emasculated whelp" ....i like it!





Sounds like emasculated DRIBBLE to me. It might be better to keep it to yourself and dhukka or it might be contagious and we will all be spouting the same dribble! 

You and dhukka obviously do not have very good reading skills as I did not attribute all the benefits of the sound economy over the last eleven years to the Liberal Government. But to deny that its policies had a significant influence on the economy is to deny reality.

It would also be welcome if you did not use foul, abusive language.


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## nomore4s (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Its about time governments impliment in schools a "mental health" subject and start to assess mentaly unstable people at a very young age.
> 
> Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.
> 
> ...




lol, Our schools are flat out teaching our kids to read and write at any decent level, let alone handing that sort of subject over to them. I think it would be a bit dangerous.


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## wayneL (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> What a stupid comment, guns don't kill, people kill



I wonder why nobody ever challenges this?

Can  person kill without a gun?

Some can.

Can a gun kill without a person?

No.

Can a person kill 31 others in 20 minutes without a gun? 

Not without some planning and some other weapon. (bomb, mass poisoning or something)

The truth is that guns greatly enhance the humans ability to kill. He couldn't do the same damage with a walking cane or an empty can of coke could he.

At the other end of this logic, why not allow people to carry machine guns, 3 kg of c4 and a packet of detonator, suitcase nukes? These don't kill people, people kill people.


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> What a stupid comment, guns don't kill, people kill




I can't totally disagree with you, but possessing weapons, especially guns, makes killing easier!


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## dhukka (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Sounds like emasculated DRIBBLE to me. It might be better to keep it to yourself and dhukka or it might be contagious and we will all be spouting the same dribble!
> 
> You and dhukka obviously do not have very good reading skills as I did not attribute all the benefits of the sound economy over the last eleven years to the Liberal Government. But to deny that its policies had a significant influence on the economy is to deny reality.
> 
> It would also be welcome if you did not use foul, abusive language.




Well what would be the point of a forum if we kept our opinions to ourselves? Even though your opinions sound like they come from the back of a cornflakes packet I welcome your views. More grist for the mill. 

If my language offends your delicate sensibilities maybe you should put your bible down and pick up a linguistics book. I recommend *Practical English Usage* by _Michael Swan_. It has a whole chapter devoted to the use of swear words and their very practical application to the English language.


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## doctorj (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> But to deny that its policies had a significant influence on the economy is to deny reality



I can think of two economic policies - GST and workplace reform.  Aside from those, what significant policy has the government enacted to support this boom?  To my mind, they're riding on the coat tails of the changes put in place by Keating and previous labour governments.

Howard's liberals have squandered a fantastic opportunity, control of both houses of parliament, by not taking on the big issue facing Australia's economy - the inefficient, unweildy tax system.  The tax act makes a fantastic door stop, but for everything else its many times too big.  I'd love to see a simpler tax system - lower rates of tax offset by fewer deductions, and the resulting reduced collection costs.



bel532 said:


> It would also be welcome if you did not use foul, abusive language.



Lets not get too carried away.  Politicans are faced with much worse every day.  Keating-esque insults like that are part of their business.


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## dhukka (17 April 2007)

doctorj said:


> I can think of two economic policies - GST and workplace reform.  Aside from those, what significant policy has the government enacted to support this boom?  To my mind, they're riding on the coat tails of the changes put in place by Keating and previous labour governments.




Exactly, in the words of Paul Keating: 

_"Costello must wake up every morning and think there is a rainbow shining out of his ********" _from the Latham diaries.


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## bel532 (17 April 2007)

dhukka said:


> Well what would be the point of a forum if we kept our opinions to ourselves? Even though your opinions sound like they come from the back of a cornflakes packet I welcome your views. More grist for the mill.
> 
> If my language offends your delicate sensibilities maybe you should put your bible down and pick up a linguistics book. I recommend *Practical English Usage* by _Michael Swan_. It has a whole chapter devoted to the use of swear words and their very practical application to the English language.




The use of swear and abusive language is usually a sign of a person with very poor language skills and/or very poor logical thought. I wonder where you fit in?

If, in your opinion, my ideas come from the back of a cornflakes packet, your ideas, judging by your language, must come from the bottom of a garbage bin.


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## wayneL (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> The use of swear and abusive language is usually a sign of a person with very poor language skills and/or very poor logical thought. I wonder where you fit in?
> 
> If, in your opinion, my ideas come from the back of a cornflakes packet, your ideas, judging by your language, must come from the bottom of a garbage bin.



What's worse, a bit of colourful language, or extreme sycophancy/partisanship?

BTW the swearing => poor language skills link is a non sequitur. My best man at my wedding has an IQ of 150 and language skills I can only covet, yet drops the F word frequently and liberally.

It is just an entrenched part of Australian idiom. (and nearly everywhere else too)


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## 2020hindsight (17 April 2007)

doctorj said:


> Keating-esque insults like that are part of their business.



Keating had people grovelling around in vomit as I recall .     nothing if not vivid, lol.

IMO Johnny H did a good job getting rid of guns after Port Arthur (one of his first real tests), but obviously the gun lobby would disagree, and cripes, I wish they were paying as much attention to preventing "re-stocking" of pistols etc coming through customs - allegedly easily available for organised criminals   

Final comment.  Why o why do these people have to kill other happy, mentally healthy, onlookers before killing themselves.  Why don't they just cut to the final act of the play , and skip the rest 

Wayne, here's something to remind you of your best man - Mind you , trouble with being best man, you never get a chance to F***ing prove it  

This bloke in the cartoon would give Billy Connolly a run for his money lol. Billy C without his F***ing vocab would be like Sampson without his F***ing hair lol.


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## dhukka (17 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> The use of swear and abusive language is usually a sign of a person with very poor language skills and/or very poor logical thought. I wonder where you fit in?




More grade school platitudes and easily the 2nd funniest thing I've read today. Keep them coming.


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## Prospector (17 April 2007)

Well, maybe the question is why is the US so different from other countries who have just as high a percentage of gun ownership.  eg Canada, Germany.

I have always thought the main threat to US security will come from within and not from external terrorist threats.


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## Boyou (17 April 2007)

Hi all concerned citizens. Seems to me this thread has mostly gone off the rails.Started out as a response to yet another senseless act and has deteriorated into Right/Left political slugfest... Ho Hum.


I won't get involved that

 But I would like to comment on wayne L's words...that guns greatly enhance our ability to kill. I think the operative word here is LEVERAGE.The gunman certainly had lots of that when he opened fire on (presumabely) unsuspecting pupils.He had the will and the gun supplied the leverage

It's a sad day..


Cheers Y'all


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## drillinto (17 April 2007)

A pertinent film ==> http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/index.php


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## Buster (17 April 2007)

Hey Dhuk..



dhukka said:


> The truth? Well the truth can be relative but here is my version of it. John Howard is a lying, weak, emasculated whelp with his face firmly implanted in the illiterate chimp G.W. Bush's ********. He has consistently lied on various issues and went against public opinion to send troops to Iraq the justification for which was based on more lies.



Sounds like you've described pretty much any politician to me..  



dhukka said:


> Little Johnny boy was in the right place at the right time and any suggestion that Australia's current prosperity has anything to do with Liberal party politics is a joke.



Can't agree here though, after seeing the mess the previous Govt made, and the tough calls that Johnny and Co initially had to make to turn things around, I think that some good calls (be them flukes/lucky timing or meditated) have been made..   



dhukka said:


> No I'm not a sychophantic labour supporter.



 Nor I, However I'm a firm believer of the 'if it aint broke dont fix it' and 'better the devil you know' Philosophy.  Some may say there is plenty broken, but I believe not so much as in the past..

As I've said previously.. POLITICS = Poly (many) tics (blood sucking parasites).. 

[on topic] Many years ago when I was (ironically) on a 'Advanced Gun Course' we had an American instructor flown out who made a comment during the 'Bryant' shootings in Tazzie, that this would'nt happen in the US as many people carry guns.. His mentality was the by the time the gunman (or woman) had shot 2 or 3 people, the little ol' lady (or man) in the next room/aisle/house would pull out her six shooter from the handbag and blow him away..

Couldn't get through to him that one armed nut every 4 or 5 years killing 20 - 30 is preferable to 20 -30 armed nuts killing 2 or 3 people every year..

And YES!!! We should grieve for the INNOCENT victims and the relatives/friends of those killed and wounded, it's a terribly sad and traumatic time for them.. can't believe anyone could be so blasÃ© as to ask why.. 

Regards,

Buster


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## constable (17 April 2007)

Boyou said:


> Hi all concerned citizens. Seems to me this thread has mostly gone off the rails.Started out as a response to yet another senseless act and has deteriorated into Right/Left political slugfest... Ho Hum.
> 
> 
> Cheers Y'all




sory boyou id woz all my folt , i just tryed to say dat johney wood be on the rocknroll wid out work and dat da yanks can take him ova , but dat bel bloke got real pooey an dafensiv on hes own fread ova it! i he wants da fight  bout how com he's got gooda speling and wryting  and betta than me im gonna meet him at da lock room at playtime


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## Boyou (17 April 2007)

Way too funny constable! 


I am amazed ..and chagrined by your riposte!

BTW I note you are a Ballarat boy.I was born in that fair city.Spent the first 23 years of my life in Wendouree.Small world ..is it not? May I enquire of your history in in 'rat? 

Cheers Ya'll


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## insider (17 April 2007)

You know what... this stuff never happens at TAFE... if you want to be safe go to TAFE...


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## 2020hindsight (17 April 2007)

Interesting that Clinton stood up to the gun lobby, at least to stop imported assault weapons - but that it has since lapsed under Bush.  
The problem in USA is obviously endemic.  Does anyone still think that Lee Oswald acted alone for instance.  Or that the assassinations of both JFK and of Martin Luther King weren't seriously sinister slurs on the entire establishment. 

we have all seen countless westerns with a bunch of hombre blokes
who will shoot up any pest 'n who makes war zones look a hoax
when they're tired of their incestin, using bullet holes for jokes
then John Wayne or Charlton Heston use the corpse to put out smokes.

you'd have thought that in Australia , given our ancestral roots
we'd be equally a failure when it came to bar room coots 
...
now they handcuff you and jail ya if you own a thing that shoots
...
now our menfolk use a dahlia to impress a girl. - and suits


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## Halba (17 April 2007)

The guy wasn't american he was a chinese national on a student visa and attended that college...does that make a difference? At least this time an american didn't do it.


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## moXJO (18 April 2007)

I was on reading an American forum board last night and they were 99% against banning guns(It was actually 100% but maybe I missed one post in a real long thread).Their argument was that if someone had a gun they could of shot him.Arguments also popped up that a criminal was less likely to come to your place of work or home if he knew you were armed.Also that the people if armed ,could rise up against the government if need be.Hitler disarming the people before slaughtering the jews was given as an example.

There were a few AUS and CADs trying to reason but it fell on deaf ears.They fully believe that guns protect their way of life.That and they believe they are the greatest nation on earth.And after a ribbing told aussie posters that AUS has just upgraded from mud huts, are a 3rd world country, need US to fight our battles and our broadband is gumtrees with wires with cups on the end.Well they got one right.


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## chops_a_must (18 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Children need to be taught about how to stay mentally stable so these sorts of tragedies do not occur.



Lol! Yeah, but in Australia _we give_ nutjobs guns. They are called soldiers.

And who cares anyway? They are Americans. It's not like we are grieving for the 50 or so Iraqis the yanks are killing each day.

Just another "caring contest"!


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## nizar (18 April 2007)

Prospector said:


> Well, maybe the question is why is the US so different from other countries who have just as high a percentage of gun ownership.  eg Canada, Germany.
> 
> I have always thought the main threat to US security will come from within and not from external terrorist threats.




Yep thats so true.
Those Yanks are so obsessed about anti-terrorism and airport checks etc, but if all they did was put security at the school gate they wouldve been able to stop so many deaths.
I mean, they had 2 hours notice...  

And they sent an email? LOL wat a joke.


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## nizar (18 April 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> And who cares anyway? They are Americans. It's not like we are grieving for the 50 or so Iraqis the yanks are killing each day.




Solid point.
I agree.


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## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

Prospector said:


> Well, maybe the question is why is the US so different from other countries who have just as high a percentage of gun ownership.  eg Canada, Germany.
> 
> I have always thought the main threat to US security will come from within and not from external terrorist threats.



Yep I'd agree prospector.
No question rampant gun ownership makes it easier for the rabid baddies to be armed, end of story.   To argue guns because "it means that the goodies can also be armed" has gotta be crazy.
I mean, it's not as if you'll get the first shot in (you can bet on that one!)

As for assault weapons, automatics, semi automatics sheesh - madness.  You don't need a semiautomatic to shoot a deer - I mean it's unlikely to shoot back for chrissake - take a lead from "the Deerhunter" and only use one round 

And surely we in Aus are on the right track - surely we have a better chance of rounding up criminals (incl terrorists I guess) if all we have to do is find them in possession of an illegal weapon and that carries a substantial jail term  - although 
a) that's rarely reported I concede, and
b) it is the same principle as disarming the Solomon Islanders using unarmed Aussie policemen - they have more effect that armed ones - but try telling that to an American 

PS I'm told the term "redneck" is illegal in USA.   - 
PS maybe that should read a very "ill eagle "


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## bel532 (18 April 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Lol! Yeah, but in Australia _we give_ nutjobs guns. They are called soldiers.
> 
> And who cares anyway? They are Americans. It's not like we are grieving for the 50 or so Iraqis the yanks are killing each day.
> 
> Just another "caring contest"!




Get it right. The Iraquis are killing each other, Sunni v Shia etec etc..


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## chops_a_must (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Get it right. The Iraquis are killing each other, Sunni v Shia etec etc..




So why are we compensating families for the people we are killing?

Get it right. Geez.


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## bel532 (18 April 2007)

doctorj said:


> I can think of two economic policies - GST and workplace reform.  Aside from those, what significant policy has the government enacted to support this boom?  To my mind, they're riding on the coat tails of the changes put in place by Keating and previous labour governments.
> 
> 
> Howard's liberals have squandered a fantastic opportunity, control of both houses of parliament, by not taking on the big issue facing Australia's economy - the inefficient, unweildy tax system.  The tax act makes a fantastic door stop, but for everything else its many times too big.  I'd love to see a simpler tax system - lower rates of tax offset by fewer deductions, and the resulting reduced collection costs.
> ...




But they are TWO very IMPORTANT changes to our econonmic policies and should not be dismissed so lightly. And, of course, you have not mentioned the Trade Agreement with the USA, which, over time, will benefit OZ. 


Everyone wants a simple tax system, but it seems beyond  the capabilities of any political party to achieve. Do you remember the Simple Tax system introduced by Keating that was anything but simple and, accordingly, was aborted before it was born?


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## bel532 (18 April 2007)

doctorj said:


> I can think of two economic policies - GST and workplace reform.  Aside from those, what significant policy has the government enacted to support this boom?  To my mind, they're riding on the coat tails of the changes put in place by Keating and previous labour governments.
> 
> Howard's liberals have squandered a fantastic opportunity, control of both houses of parliament, by not taking on the big issue facing Australia's economy - the inefficient, unweildy tax system.  The tax act makes a fantastic door stop, but for everything else its many times too big.  I'd love to see a simpler tax system - lower rates of tax offset by fewer deductions, and the resulting reduced collection costs.
> 
> Lets not get too carried away.  Politicans are faced with much worse every day.  Keating-esque insults like that are part of their business.






nizar said:


> Yep thats so true.
> Those Yanks are so obsessed about anti-terrorism and airport checks etc, but if all they did was put security at the school gate they wouldve been able to stop so many deaths.
> I mean, they had 2 hours notice...
> 
> And they sent an email? LOL wat a joke.




Are you really suggesting that there is no threat from fanatical Muslim terrorists? If you are, then you must be living in cuckoo land, or, like an alcoholic, living in denial.


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## bel532 (18 April 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> So why are we compensating families for the people we are killing?
> 
> Get it right. Geez.




YOU get it right. By far the MAJORITY of deaths in Iraq are due to fantical Iraquis killing each other or, is your mnd so prejudiced, you can't see what's in front of very own eyes?.


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## Kimosabi (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> When will the Americans learn that guns kill?




Guns are cool, ban bullets...


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## doctorj (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> But they are TWO very IMPORTANT changes to our econonmic policies and should not be dismissed so lightly. And, of course, you have not mentioned the Trade Agreement with the USA, which, over time, will benefit OZ.



Two 'important' economic policies rolled out in the last 10+ years.  I'm not sure that's anything to be ranting about.



bel532 said:


> Everyone wants a simple tax system, but it seems beyond the capabilities of any political party to achieve. Do you remember the Simple Tax system introduced by Keating that was anything but simple and, accordingly, was aborted before it was born?



My history on this isn't so good, but there is a Simple Tax System in the Tax Act that various people can qualify to use.  I don't know if this was introduced by the Keating government, but good luck if he did.

There isn't a lack of political ability to simplify the tax system, but intead to my mind a lack of political will.



bel532 said:


> Are you really suggesting that there is no threat from fanatical Muslim terrorists? If you are, then you must be living in cuckoo land, or, like an alcoholic, living in denial.



There's also a significant threat from fanatical Americans (one has the keys to the oval office now, in my opinion), but that's beside the point. I believe the threat from Muslims is over represented as that's where the political will is right now.  There are many other great threats to human rights going on at this very moment (Zimbabwe, much of North Africa, China etc etc), but we here about the muslims.  Ironically, this aids the terrorists cause as innocent moderates caught in the cross fire are easily converted into angry extremists.



bel532 said:


> YOU get it right. By far the MAJORITY of deaths in Iraq are due to fantical Iraquis killing each other or, is your mnd so prejudiced, you can't see what's in front of very own eyes?.



There's a bigger issue at play here.  There's significant evidence that particular groups within Iraq are being supplied and encouraged by Iran in sort of a proxy war with the US.  Soldiers are dying, iraqis are dying and children are dying.  I'd wager there wouldn't be anywhere near the number of deaths in iraq every day if the americans weren't there.  For every 1 innocent american person that died at the hands of terrorists on september 11, dozens of innocent iraqis have died directly as a result of actions of the coalition fores.  Who are the terrorists now?

One thing we can all agree on is this is a tragedy.  50 odd people had their lives ended or significantly affected by the actions of a single person a couple of days ago.  A whole community will never be the same. I applaud Australian gun laws and if anything, believe they could go further.  The american gun lobby has more blood on its hands this week.


----------



## chops_a_must (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> YOU get it right. By far the MAJORITY of deaths in Iraq are due to fantical Iraquis killing each other or, is your mnd so prejudiced, you can't see what's in front of very own eyes?.




You are right. I can't see fantics in front of my own eyes because I have no idea what the hell they are.

I don't care if Islamic groups are killing each other more than we are. The point was that western nations are killing civillians.


----------



## ironchef (18 April 2007)

LOL ITS BEL532 EVERYONE   our young victim of right-wing rhetoric.

Bel532 will have you believe that before the Americans invaded Iraq, there was no electricity, water supply, daily massacres, basic standard of living in Iraq. (which are simply true!)

He'll also brand you as a terrorist/spy/idiot/non-patriot if you question his views and opinions (and rightly so!!! Damn you if you can't comprehend 'simple truth'). We should all remember that he's right and we're all wrong...



bel532 said:


> Don't you like the truth? Maybe it hurts too much.






bel532 said:


> Sounds like emasculated DRIBBLE to me. It might be better to keep it to yourself and dhukka or it might be contagious and we will all be spouting the same dribble!






bel532 said:


> Get it right. The Iraquis are killing each other, Sunni v Shia etec etc..





bel532 said:


> You and dhukka obviously do not have very good reading skills






bel532 said:


> The use of swear and abusive language is usually a sign of a person with very poor language skills and/or very poor logical thought. I wonder where you fit in?






bel532 said:


> you can't see what's in front of very own eyes?.






bel532 said:


> Are you really suggesting that there is no threat from fanatical Muslim terrorists? If you are, then you must be living in cuckoo land, or, like an alcoholic, living in denial.




I suspected that there might be a link between Islamic Barbarian Terrorist Killers (that hate freedom, candy and rainbows) and this 23 year Korean dude... bel532 has cleared it up for us... its no longer a suspicion.. its now *FACT*



This was all from this thread.... For all of you interested in bel532's other teachings and prophecies please visit: The Gold Mine of Unbiased Information... There is much to learn from this man.


----------



## constable (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> YOU get it right. By far the MAJORITY of deaths in Iraq are due to fantical Iraquis killing each other or, is your mnd so prejudiced, you can't see what's in front of very own eyes?.




Is it possible bel for you to debate seriously without stooping to personal insults to highlight your points? or was the whole thread set up for this reason? because it seems as though anyone who presents an opinion against yours you immediately ridicule them! Try a little more tact big fella!


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

ironchef said:


> LOL ITS BEL532 EVERYONE   our young victim of right-wing rhetoric.
> 
> Bel532 will have you believe that before the Americans invaded Iraq, there was no electricity, water supply, daily massacres, basic standard of living in Iraq. (which are simply true!)
> 
> ...




What on earth is all your babble about? I presume from this babble that you support terrorism. Is that right? Then please leave this country and live with those people (mad Muslim terrorists) you so admire. You could ask Hicks where to go, I am sure he can help you.


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

constable said:


> Is it possible bel for you to debate seriously without stooping to personal insults to highlight your points? or was the whole thread set up for this reason? because it seems as though anyone who presents an opinion against yours you immediately ridicule them! Try a little more tact big fella!




I suggest that you, and your mates on this site, learn some tact and stop abusing the English language!


----------



## BIG BWACULL (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> I suggest that you, and your mates on this site, learn some tact and stop abusing the English language!



No you stop it, no you stop it, no you stop it, MUMMY he wont stop it. Bel get to your room  LOL


----------



## junmonkey (18 April 2007)

Halba said:


> The guy wasn't american he was a chinese national on a student visa and attended that college...does that make a difference? At least this time an american didn't do it.




Actually, I think it was a young korean man who stayed in the US since 1992, meaning he was brought up in the US. I think if he was brought up in Korea, he would have just killed himself and not the others.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> I suggest that you, and your mates on this site, learn some tact and stop abusing the English language!



Well hell I think the english language is a F***ing joke for a start!!


----------



## nizar (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Are you really suggesting that there is no threat from fanatical Muslim terrorists? If you are, then you must be living in cuckoo land, or, like an alcoholic, living in denial.




Oh yeh, on this point, if the bloke wasnt Asian, instead Arab or from Middle Eastern or Muslim background, he wouldve been labelled as a TERRORIST for sure.

Interestingly enough, i havent seen him mentioned with the word terrorist.

Gotta love the media


----------



## robert toms (18 April 2007)

Are you the same bel352 that advocates that the Americans bomb anyone that disagrees with them...or that they deem troublesome to them ?
If so,you must have a sneaking admiration for the gunman in this killing spree.He did not negotiate ...just shot the living daylights out of them.
Do you deem violence as a first resort acceptable?
Perhaps this murderer gained inspiration from Rambo,Bruce Willis,Arnie Schwarzenegger,the Coalition of the Willing,posts on ASF...who knows?
You wanted the Americans to bomb the Iranians as a first resort...blessed are the peacemakers....
I think that anyone that has had even a  passing acquaintance with violence tries to avoid it ...there are some that are fascinated by it,as long as they are not on the receiving end of course !


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

I reckon Bel's after Bill O'Reilly's job on Fox


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Well hell I think the english language is a F***ing joke for a start!!





Your English writing skills are so admirable. It's that the only word you could consuier to express your point of view. I wonder if your verbal skills are any better. I doubt it.


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Your English writing skills are so admirable. It's that the only word you could consuier to express your point of view. I wonder if your verbal skills are any better. I doubt it.



Trivial Pursuit:

Did you know that "fart" used to be the polite term for passing wind?

Even Michel de Montaigne the French nobleman and philosopher regularly used vulgar terminology in his "Essays".

Swearing is with us, is such a minor transgression compared to general hard-heartedness; accept it.


----------



## constable (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Your English writing skills are so admirable. It's that the only word you could consuier to express your point of view. I wonder if your verbal skills are any better. I doubt it.




"It's that the only word you could........"
Hmmm great writings skills there , try editing your insults b4 u post!


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

robert toms said:


> Are you the same bel352 that advocates that the Americans bomb anyone that disagrees with them...or that they deem troublesome to them ?
> If so,you must have a sneaking admiration for the gunman in this killing spree.He did not negotiate ...just shot the living daylights out of them.
> Do you deem violence as a first resort acceptable?
> Perhaps this murderer gained inspiration from Rambo,Bruce Willis,Arnie Schwarzenegger,the Coalition of the Willing,posts on ASF...who knows?
> ...





What on earth are you rambling on about? Where did I state that I wanted the Americans to bomb the Iranians as a first resort? Where did I state that I deem that violence as a first resort is acceptable? However I do state that it is accepable as a pre-emptive strike, if you have credible evidence that you, or your country, is about to be attacked eg Pearl Harbour, 9/11 etc.

Perhaps this murderer gained INSPIRATION, not from American TV, but from all those Muslim fanatics who are constantly on a REAL killing, murdering spree, which includeds their own brethern. I am sure you admire them, after all they are NOT Americans.


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> What on earth are you rambling on about? Where did I state that I wanted the Americans to bomb the Iranians as a first resort? Where did I state that I deem that violence as a first resort is acceptable? However I do state that it is accepable as a pre-emptive strike, if you have credible evidence that you, or your country, is about to be attacked eg Pearl Harbour, 9/11 etc.



How about attacking a country where there was no proof of any sort of credible evidence of any sort of attack, like...................... Iraq?



bel532 said:


> Perhaps this murderer gained INSPIRATION, not from American TV, but from all those Muslim fanatics who are constantly on a killing, murdering spree, which includeds their own brethern. I am sure you admire them, after all they are NOT Americans



This is called spin.... of the extremely transparent and incredible variety. Hell, even Bill O'Reilly didn't think of that! lol


----------



## nizar (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> Perhaps this murderer gained INSPIRATION, not from American TV, but from all those Muslim fanatics who are constantly on a REAL killing, murdering spree, which includeds their own brethern. I am sure you admire them, after all they are NOT Americans.




THis is hilarious - i never met anybody who was so fooled by the media.
Do some REAL research buddy before posting - and i mean more than watching CNN and channel 9.
Your making a fool of yourself.


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

wayneL said:


> How about attacking a country where there was no proof of any sort of credible evidence of any sort of attack, like...................... Iraq?
> 
> 
> This is called spin.... of the extremely transparent and incredible variety. Hell, even Bill O'Reilly didn't think of that! lol




I repeat, where did I advocate violence as a first resort under ANY circumstances? Stop blowing your horn or you will get a hernia. Answer the question.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

Here's a quote I put on the "does anybody watch ABC" thread this morning
Sadly it's about killing and another sort of university.



2020hindsight said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1899913.htm  Al Qaeda group says Iraq a 'university of terror'




But before I quote from it, here's one of GW Bush's quotes (remembering that, when we went to Iraq, the number of terrorists there could be counted on your fingers and toes.   
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm
Bush :- "*You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror*." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006


> The head of an Al Qaeda-linked group in Iraq says the country has become a "university of terrorism", producing highly qualified warriors, since the 2003 US-led invasion.
> 
> In an audio recording posted on the Internet, Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, leader of the self-styled Islamic State in Iraq, said his fighters were successfully confronting US forces in Iraq and had begun producing a guided missile called al-Quds 1 or Jerusalem 1.
> 
> ...



http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=letterman+george+bush  Letterman on GW Bush (well some Americans can laugh at least) 

Here are some other quotes from that "Bushisms" website (would you trust your children's and your grandchildren's futures to this man)   :-



> Iraq is a very important part of securing the homeland, and it's a very important part of helping change the Middle East into a part of the world that will not serve as a threat to the civilized world, to people like -- or to the developed world, to people like -- in the United States." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 3, 2007
> 
> "Suiciders are willing to kill innocent life in order to send the projection that this is an impossible mission." --George W. Busy, Washington, D.C., April 3, 2007
> 
> ...


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

nizar said:


> THis is hilarious - i never met anybody who was so fooled by the media.
> Do some REAL research buddy before posting - and i mean more than watching CNN and channel 9.
> Your making a fool of yourself.




The bigger fool is the person who considers everyone else but himself a fool. Ever heard of Alice in Wonderland, where the King wore no clothes, but no one noticed. Do you want a clue?

By the wayI am NOT your buddy.


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> I repeat, where did I advocate violence as a first resort under ANY circumstances? Stop blowing your horn or you will get a hernia. Answer the question.



Which question be that? You haven't asked me any question.

BTW, regarding the insults emanating from your keyboard; you know not what you do. See clause 2 at this link


----------



## robert toms (18 April 2007)

Calm down Bel 352...We only get dial up in our area so I have not got a line open constantly.
Now ,I  quickly searched through "Middle East set for disaster' posts and you are right ,as far as I can see you did not advocate bombing Iran.If I did misrepresent what you said ,I unreservedly apologise.
However,I did get the picture of one very aggressive person...pleased with the bombing campaign in Bosnia,aggrieved that the USA had to do the "heavy lifting" in Afghanistan and calling people cowardly.
Do you know how many countries the USA has bombed since WW2?


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> The bigger fool is the person who considers everyone else but himself a fool.



Hoisted by his own petard


----------



## bel532 (18 April 2007)

robert toms said:


> Calm down Bel 352...We only get dial up in our area so I have not got a line open constantly.
> Now ,I  quickly searched through "Middle East set for disaster' posts and you are right ,as far as I can see you did not advocate bombing Iran.If I did misrepresent what you said ,I unreservedly apologise.
> However,I did get the picture of one very aggressive person...pleased with the bombing campaign in Bosnia,aggrieved that the USA had to do the "heavy lifting" in Afghanistan and calling people cowardly.
> Do you know how many countries the USA has bombed since WW2?




I am certainly NOT an aggresive person but I am an assertive person, there is a marked difference (I learnt that the hard way from a very, very aggresive CEO). I will answer the rest of  your question later (maybe tomorow) as I need to take the dog for a walk prior to dinner and then watching Dateline on SBS.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> The bigger fool is the person who considers everyone else but himself a fool. Ever heard of Alice in Wonderland, where the King wore no clothes, but no one noticed. Do you want a clue?
> 
> By the wayI am NOT your buddy.



hey bel the kings new clothes is Hans Christian Andersen 
But I'm sure Lewis Caroll also enjoyed it. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZYzbkk5X4M
Do we want a clue?
depends,  do you have one to give us?


----------



## constable (18 April 2007)

Can we rename this thread to Bel's sensitive ego? 
And we could keep it open just so during the day we can stop by and have a laugh at the freak.hahahahaha


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

junmonkey said:


> Actually, I think it was a young korean man who stayed in the US since 1992, meaning he was brought up in the US. I think if he was brought up in Korea, he would have just killed himself and not the others.



spot on junmonkey
so that means he's a 23 year old who emigrated to USA at the age of (about) 8.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900777.htm 


> 'American dream'.  Cho's family were living a tough life in South Korea before they emigrated to the United States in search of the American dream, news reports say.
> 
> Cho was a "very quiet and well-behaved" boy when he lived with his family in a modest rented apartment in northern Seoul before the family left for the United States in 1992, their former landlord said.   "I was just shocked when I was visited and told by (South Korean) police yesterday that the gunman was a boy who used to live in my apartment," Lim Bong-Ae, 67, was quoted as saying by Yonhap news agency.   "I remember him as a quiet and well-behaved boy. I just can't believe he did it," she said.
> 
> ...



1. sounds like his folks were looking for the American dream, but ended up in an American nightmare 
2. Apparently he was taking photos of girls legs under his desk during lectures, hence needed individual tutoring.   I couldn't help thinking of that idiot (somewhere in Aus) who was photographing up girls dresses with a camera on his shoe.  Do we run him in as a potential mass murderer? obviously it's bludy difficult to get these things right prior to the sanity "snapping"    

PS It would (obviously) be totally unreasonable to take it out on South Koreans.  They have enough to deal with -  e.g. massive concrete anti-tank walls on the 38th parallel border with the North (resembling the Great Wall of China) with arches with explosives all ready charged that can be dropped down to block the way of any tanks that might be chasing them as they retreated  ..  real healthy place to grow up .


----------



## nizar (18 April 2007)

constable said:


> Can we rename this thread to Bel's sensitive ego?
> And we could keep it open just so during the day we can stop by and have a laugh at the freak.hahahahaha




I agree.
Hahahahahahahaha


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2007)

Let's stick to the debate from now on folks.

Everybody has had a nice go at each other, but any further _ad hominem_ comments from either side will be deleted/edited.

Thanks guys/gals.


----------



## constable (18 April 2007)

wayneL said:


> Let's stick to the debate from now on folks.
> 
> Everybody has had a nice go at each other, but any further _ad hominem_ comments from either side will be deleted/edited.
> 
> Thanks guys/gals.




well said from now on im going to take it out on my dumbels


----------



## nizar (18 April 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> What a stupid comment, guns don't kill, people kill




Stop the Clock.

Get it right.

Actual quote is:
"Guns dont kill people. People kill people" - DMX in _Romeo Must Die_


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900952.htm
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=261951
hatred of the wealthy etc etc 
not sure how that fits with accusations of photographing girls legs etc under uni desk   which incidentally is what one of his lecturers (lady prof) said on PM last night )

presumably a wealthy person can afford to pay someone else to take the photos  

I'll let others comment further.
One sick dude.
You're not OK (hence I judge you unworthy to live), I'm not OK (bang)  

what a shame he didn't reverse the order 
 I'm not OK... end of story.

PS I notice he took off his glasses for this photo before his final killing spree - hopefully he missed a few people as a result


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

Poor form to joke at a time like this but ....

the masochist and the sadist ....

the masochist says to the sadist  " HIT ME,  HIT ME!!!"

and the sadist grins back and replies  "noooo,  I wonnn't  "


----------



## wayneL (19 April 2007)

I have had to delete some posts here.

Please, stick to the debate without making personal insults.

Thanks


----------



## bel532 (19 April 2007)

robert toms said:


> Calm down Bel 352...We only get dial up in our area so I have not got a line open constantly.
> Now ,I  quickly searched through "Middle East set for disaster' posts and you are right ,as far as I can see you did not advocate bombing Iran.If I did misrepresent what you said ,I unreservedly apologise.
> However,I did get the picture of one very aggressive person...pleased with the bombing campaign in Bosnia,aggrieved that the USA had to do the "heavy lifting" in Afghanistan and calling people cowardly.
> Do you know how many countries the USA has bombed since WW2?




Do you know how many innocent people have been killed by fanatical  Muslims in the last thirty years, starting with the Munich Olympics?

 I suppose you consider the bombing of Sebrenica by the Americans (because the Euros didn't have the guts) unacceptable? You obviously would have preferred  more slaughter of Bosnian Muslims by the Serbs. And the Dutch received medals for their cowardice!


----------



## wayneL (19 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> *Do you know how many innocent people have been killed by fanatical  Muslims in the last thirty years, starting with the Munich Olympics?*
> 
> I suppose you consider the bombing of Sebrenica by the Americans (because the Euros didn't have the guts) unacceptable? You obviously would have preferred  more slaughter of Bosnian Muslims by the Serbs. And the Dutch received medals for their cowardice!



Probably about 1% of those blown up by fanatical Americans.


----------



## nizar (19 April 2007)

Bel.
Why cant you just answer the question?

If you dont know, i'll give you a clue, its SEVERAL.
They just done get the same media coverage.


----------



## bel532 (19 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Bel.
> Why cant you just answer the question?
> 
> If you dont know, i'll give you a clue, its SEVERAL.
> They just done get the same media coverage.




Save me time. Repeat the question.


----------



## bel532 (19 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Bel.
> Why cant you just answer the question?
> 
> If you dont know, i'll give you a clue, its SEVERAL.
> They just done get the same media coverage.




What's the question? Give me a clue.


----------



## nizar (19 April 2007)

robert toms said:


> Do you know how many countries the USA has bombed since WW2?




Bel, I mean this question.


----------



## happytown (19 April 2007)

I remember this as being worded slightly differently, however Elbert Hubbard (US author) at least once exclaimed:

"So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private citizens will occasionally kill theirs"

cheers


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 April 2007)

happytown said:


> I remember this as being worded slightly differently, however Elbert Hubbard (US author) at least once exclaimed:
> 
> "So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private citizens will occasionally kill theirs"
> 
> cheers




How long do you think man has been killing man?

The mind is a complex distortion of reality.


----------



## stoxclimber (19 April 2007)

I'm very impressed by the level of maturity shown by all parties.


----------



## siempre33 (19 April 2007)

the plan is to take guns away from the people, I'm convinced of that...

"The so-called Port Arthur massacre, which we were told was carried out by the "lone nut gun man", Martin Bryant, was used to implement National Gun Laws in Australia." 

Virginia Tech, another manufactured massacre?
look at this in-depth study of guv black-ops in this regard....

http://www.shootersnews.addr.com/snportarthur.html


----------



## happytown (19 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> How long do you think man has been killing man?




string and the question of length



Wysiwyg said:


> The mind is a complex distortion of reality




particularly to those susceptible to deception, manipulation et al

cheers


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900952.htm
For the record, although it's serious "diatribe" as they say. 
[di·a·tribe = n.   A bitter, abusive denunciation].


> "You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," Cho Seung-Hui said in one of 29 video files included in a package of writings, pictures and videos mailed from Blacksburg where Virginia Tech university is located.  "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.
> 
> "Thanks to you I die like Jesus Christ,  to inspire generations of the weak and the defenceless people," he ranted.
> 
> ...



You wonder was he the victim of some sort of bullying as a youth maybe? - something ingrained from pre-seven year old memories. ?  Shame he didn't pick up on Jesus' message about forgiveness leading to mental health.


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900952.htm
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=261951
> hatred of the wealthy etc etc
> not sure how that fits with accusations of photographing girls legs etc under uni desk   which incidentally is what one of his lecturers (lady prof) said on PM last night )
> ...




Interesting 2020 that in a western or "civilised" society that the killing of humans is more newsworthy or shocking than in an (for example) an African nation where life is considered, duh, less important.


----------



## bel532 (19 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting 2020 that in a western or "civilised" society that the killing of humans is more newsworthy or shocking than in an (for example) an African nation where life is considered, duh, less important.




The reason is obvious. In Africa the massacre, mutiliation and killing of 'innocents' is almost a daily occurence, and, unfortunately, to a certain degree, we become immune to it. Prime examples are :

Ruanda,  .

Darfur,

Somalia and, last, but not least

Zambia

It is a very sad fact that, compared to Western countries, the killing of humans on a comparatively large scale is quite common in Africa and to a lesser degree in parts of South America and Asia.

This daily occurence dulls the senses and we assume it is all a part of living in those countries. This is the reason that some people in the West suffer, from what is known as 'aid fatigue', especially in regards to Africa. What has the billions of dollars donated to that continent ever achieved except to line the pockets of brutal dictators?


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> The reason is obvious. In Africa the massacre, mutiliation and killing of 'innocents' is almost a daily occurence, and, unfortunately, to a certain degree, we become immune to it. Prime examples are :
> 
> Ruanda,  .
> 
> ...




bel532... To send a U.N. army to these lawless nations and go through them like a dose of salts would have to be easier than trying to alter the psyche of Iraqis.

Like beauty, justice is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting 2020 that in a western or "civilised" society that the killing of humans is more newsworthy or shocking than in an (for example) an African nation where life is considered, duh, less important.



got me thinking here wysiwyg 
1. I guess you're referring to their relative acceptance of such crazed behaviour - and I'm sure bel is right when he says they become, if not "immune to it", then certainly their senses are "deadened to the daily occurrence".  
2. hence you'd think if anyone was entitled to go crazy, it would be these poor people in the refugee camps
3. same goes for the level of suspect sanity in detention camps in Aus of course, 
4. the flip side also is the relative "newsworthiness CNN style" of one "western" life compared to one of "the third world" 

e.g. when they write about something like the Tsunami in Aceh, compared to the EQ in San Fran for instance  
apart from the fact that one was a 7.1 richter EQ compared to 9.1 (which I think is 100 times more powerful), there was several orders of magnitude more people killed.  Needless to say, both were horrible things to hear about , but so often in the news "six killed in USA/Canada/Aus etc" takes headlines over "1600 killed in EQ in third world - even distant "cousins" in first world - such as regions around Turkey for goodness sake, and we are about to celebrate Anzac with them as brothers ! 



> Partial list of earthquake dead released. Killed in (1989) San Francisco included Jeffrey Choi, 50; Yuk Lin Lau, 34; Scott Dickinson, 3 1/2 months; Donald McGlinchy, 59; and Diane Laufer, 40. Timothy Moss, 40, of San Francisco, was killed on the Cypress Freeway.
> 
> Portland Red Cross chapter shipped bread and other supplies to earthquake victims in San Francisco.
> 
> ...






> TSUNAMI IN ACEH.  On 26 December 2004, a 9.1-magnitude underwater earthquake caused a tremendous tsunami that devastated Aceh Province, Indonesia, resulting in the deaths of some 128,715 people (as of 18 April 2005). This tragedy evoked great concern internationally. Governments, multilateral organizations, international, national and local NGOs, religious organizations, ethnic organizations, professional organizations, educational institutions and others have rushed to provide aid to the people of Aceh.
> 
> note estimate increased ..."More than 200,000 people were killed when an earthquake beneath the ocean sent giant waves crashing ashore". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4559404.stm




note  "We were hit by ten (10) times the amount of explosive power of World War II, including the atomic bomb," hence..
"they were hit by 1,000 times the amount of explosive power of World War II, including etc,"


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## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> This daily occurence dulls the senses and we assume it is all a part of living in those countries. This is the reason that some people in the West suffer, from what is known as 'aid fatigue', especially in regards to Africa. What has the billions of dollars donated to that continent ever achieved except to line the pockets of brutal dictators?



I have this discussion with my daughter on a regular basis - she is however still hell bent on going to Africa to work in an orphanage  - so maybe the next generation are more open minded (hope so)


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## stoxclimber (19 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting 2020 that in a western or "civilised" society that the killing of humans is more newsworthy or shocking than in an (for example) an African nation where life is considered, duh, less important.




Well, I think that you would find that if you went to an African news website [and I did, just to check], the shooting wasn't getting that much coverage itself. What's your point? People relate to things that are closer to home..


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## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

pretty complex one - 
the other easy comparison already made in other posts here

32 killed in Virginia, vs 
90 killed per day on average this year in Iraq.
you're right stox, not "so close to home", - then again - 
where's "home" these days,  ?

or maybe  "not as far away as you'd like either "


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## Wysiwyg (20 April 2007)

stoxclimber said:


> Well, I think that you would find that if you went to an African news website [and I did, just to check], the shooting wasn't getting that much coverage itself. What's your point? People relate to things that are closer to home..





I think I understand what you are saying.If a family member or someone we knew was the victim it would be a different view.

I may have inadvertently suggested that all people are equal which is definately not the case.


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## Brujo (20 April 2007)

Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying.  I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that.  Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.  

Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda.  Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.

The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana.  Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 April 2007)

Brujo said:


> Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying.  I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that.  Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.
> 
> Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda.  Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.
> 
> The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana.  Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!





To sum things up it is in the connection/bond/tie we feel to others and the loss of that connection/bond/tie.The stronger the bond (supposedly )the greater the loss.And don`t the media play on it. Just as stoxclimber pointed out.

Oh and I can`t leave myself out....my comments are part of it too.(so maybe I just keep quiet and `let it be`)For tomorrow it will be another subject


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## chops_a_must (20 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> To sum things up it is in the connection/bond/tie we feel to others and the loss of that connection/bond/tie.The stronger the bond (supposedly )the greater the loss.And don`t the media play on it. Just as stoxclimber pointed out.
> 
> Oh and I can`t leave myself out....my comments are part of it too.(so maybe I just keep quiet and `let it be`)For tomorrow it will be another subject




It's been basically spoken about here, probably not as eloquently as what follows. This clip sums it up pretty well.

And I haven't had a chance to have a philosophy w**k for a while. :

Gabriel Marcel (the man who coined the termed existentialism) on the topic:


> Say, for instance, that I am told of some misfortune with which I am asked to sympathise: I understand what I am told; I admit in theory that the sufferers deserve my sympathy; I see that it is a case where it would be logical and just for me to respond with sympathy; I even offer my sympathy, but only with my mind; because, when all is said and done, I am obliged to admit that I feel absolutely nothing… [W]hat remains in me is the rather embarrassing awareness that, after all, *THESE ARE PEOPLE I DO NOT KNOW – if one had to be touched by every human misfortune, life would not be possible; it would indeed be too short. The moment I think: After all, this is a case, No. 75,627 – it is no good, I can feel nothing[!]*
> 
> 'On the Ontological Mystery' from 'The Philosophy of Existence' (1933)




It's a really beautiful read as a whole as well.


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 April 2007)

Brujo said:


> The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana.  Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!



You're right Brujo, that is a classic example.  I wonder if the reality is worse - that many missed it altogether? 

Not saying that there wasn't more to read about with Diana, but it would have been equally possible to miss the nun's passing altogether (in those hardcopy newspaper days) with the feeding frenzy about Diana's story.   Just chewing a bit of mental gum on the topic here :-

1. In the past, we bought papers, and we were treated like dumb proletariat, incapable of mental ampidexterity or rather multi-tasking ?  Can't blame the press entirely,  (- I never buy papers these days, but I always look at the headlines when I buy lunch, and compare that with the actual story I find on the web , lol - always good for a laugh  - headlines in particluar can twist / distort the truth unbelievably).  

2. I mean if one kid was spruking "Diana killed in horrifc circumstances complete with intrigue - several conspiracy theoeries, love triangles,  etc read all about it "

and the kid up the road is spruking "Mother Theresa dies after long illness, born in Skopje, Kosovo, devoted her life to working with the poor, Nobel Peace Prize, cared for thousands of dying till she died herself,  malaria and failure of the left heart ventricle suspected contributors ...but , hey, death predictable after a good innings".

There's be no contest which would sell more.  

3. But Hopefully the fact that news is now something you "scan" and "select" off the net rather than buy a paper for instance will start to get rid of the need for distorted attention seeking headlines. (newspapers - now to get rid of the commercial channel sensationalising).  I mean not difficult to select BOTH topics quickly, and apportion appropriate time to each topic.  

4. There might even be a bit more self analysis "We the press and you the public are responsible for Diana having to run some desperate gauntlet from unethical pesterering by people trying to get photos of her every move - to feed some ridiculous public appetite" 

5. After the Lindy Chamberlain matter, half the press could have been convicted of "perverting the public sense of decent behaviour" and forced to do community work IMO.  

6. Changing the topic completely, you wonder how much time the pollies devote to announcing "Corruption discovered in toad hall" during a big distraction. I wonder what will be disclosed on 28 april during the final of the world cup cricket 

7. Another complete change of tack (sorry) - I think I heard this morning that there are other mentally suspect students being reported on    Anyway it wouldn't be surprising if a few more were rounded up , knee jerk reaction etc.



> Mother Teresa suffered a heart attack in Rome during 1983, while visiting Pope John Paul II. After a second attack in 1989, she received a pacemaker. In 1991, after a battle with pneumonia while in Mexico, she suffered further heart problems. She offered to resign her position as head of the Missionaries of Charity. However, the nuns of the order, in a secret ballot, voted for her to stay. Mother Teresa agreed to continue her work as head of the order.
> 
> In April 1996, Mother Teresa fell and broke her collar bone. In August of that year she suffered from malaria and failure of the left heart ventricle. She underwent heart surgery, but it was clear that her health was declining. On March 13, 1997 she stepped down from the head of Missionaries of Charity and died on September 5, 1997, nine days after her 87th birthday.etc


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## bel532 (20 April 2007)

Brujo said:


> Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying.  I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that.  Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.
> 
> Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda.  Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.
> 
> The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana.  Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!




You can't compare the event of 9/11  with AIDS, the latter,  in the main, is a self inflicted disease due to those engaging in unprotected sex with mutiple partners. The deaths due to 9/11 (inspite of the anti-American sentiments on this site) were NOT self inflicted.

Frankly I had very little interest in the demise of Princess Diane, tragic as it was, as, IMHO, she was just a 'pretty face'. All the fuss over her untimely was just over the top. The comparision between the media's treatment of Princess Diane's death and that of Mother Theresa is very apt.

The reason people make a big fuss over one person's death, especially a so called celebrity', is that they can easily relate to one person and one single event. It's very difficult to be in a constant sense of mourning over the thousands that die every die through malnutrition, war, AIDS etc. The tsunami in Indonesia maybe the exception, possibly because it was a SINGLE event that occurred on our doorstep.


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> a. You can't compare the event of 9/11  with AIDS,
> b. the latter,  in the main, is a self inflicted disease due to those engaging in unprotected sex with mutiple partners.
> c. The deaths due to 9/11 (inspite of the anti-American sentiments on this site) were NOT self inflicted.



a. agreed
b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,-  but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) -   are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)
c. ( Y/N answer?) -  I'd agree.

As for being anti-American, here's a quote from a website posted elsewhere. 


> "Ideological Quagmires" - had this interesting comment about the USA...(by an american obviously)
> http://iq.mythicflow.com/
> 
> Quote:
> ...



Now there is a American who calls it like it is (IMO), yet a self-styled "pro-USA" American, who maintains his right to free speech and all those things that America should stand for, used to stand for, - and can think beyond the spin doctored rhetoric that comes out of Washington. 
Note Theodore Roosevelt's take on what qualifies as "treasonable to the American public..."


> Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official.~Theodore Roosevelt
> *That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.* ~Theodore Roosevelt


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## 2020hindsight (20 April 2007)

MEMORIALS
1. As for Brujos comment about theories that Americans "get over 9/11 ..." - 
no way would I deny the Americans the right to erect a memorial to 9/11 (just as we have a few to Bali victims etc) - and the best way to "get over it" IMO is not to "deny it", but to let them live on in our memories and get on with a healthy life regardless (IMO - just my way of tackling grief I guess). 

2. I really like that memorial in Kings Park Perth, where on the anniversay of Bali (12 October) the suns rays at sunrise strike a memorial stone with all the 16 (?) names of Wassies killed - very very well done Perth 

3. getting back on thread by a long circuitous route lol - I'm sure that Virginia will end up with a memorial - 

4. just as Port Arthur (I'm fairly sure (?) ) has one - 
 though as for that I may stand to be corrected .  I think that the cafe for instance has been demolished yes ?  Nobody wanted to have that vivid a reminder, and a simple memorial with a clean start was considered a "better" option. (as I recall).  Pls correct me if I'm wrong tassies.


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## 2020hindsight (20 April 2007)

Bali 2002 Memorial , Kings Park , Perth
http://www.donaldsonandwarn.com.au/Architecture/Bali/bali.html


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## Rafa (21 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,-  but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) -   are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)




I know this is way off topic.... but i have heard this many times and i must admit i am confused...

if you are NOT going to follow the teaching on sex with multiple partners, why DO you follow the teachings re use of condoms.

seems rather strange to me... 
you can't have it both ways... if your gonna be flouting the teaching on pre marital sex, you might as well flout the teaching on wearing condoms!

blaming the vatican, etc seems like a easy 'out' IMHO.


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## 2020hindsight (21 April 2007)

Rafa, How would I act if I was in charge of preventing AIDS in Africa?
I would be treating them like red blooded humans for a start.

I would tell MBeke that he's an idiot and to put Nelson Mandela back in charge ( the fool seems to be in denial about a link between hetrosexual sex and AIDS - I just wish that was a joke , like the Egyptian in de-NILE about it as well) 

I would acknowledge that Africans were entitled to some sex before they die at some ungodly early age due to horrificly low life expectancies,

I would show them the Grim Reaper ads we used to have in Aus rather than invent some story that God only intended sex with a view to procreation / reproduction whatever.  (I note they are thinking about bringing those ads or something like them back - as reference I quote Chaser lol)

THings I would NOT do include

Sitting back with the likes of Fred Nile - or people who smugly say or imply "ahhh, see I told you not to sin,  and now you have AIDS!"  

And I would not be so , mmm, lets call it blinkered, or "unpragmatic" as the Vatican, where the Pope conveniently ignores the fact that in effect we withheld the supply of morally-available-condoms to them, and hence they could only have sex playing some horrible game of Russian Roulette .  Couldn't do what young unmarried adults are doing in almost every other country around the world (possible exception of Vatican itself, but then again ... they seem to find ways around it as well )

PS Maybe you didn't see a recent post on the "Anyone Watch Aunty" thread . Here it is again - yet another of GW Bush's theories down the gurgler 
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1899734.htm Abstinence-only programs don't work: report

PS I would not make jokes about it either - AIDS might once have been a problem for the 3 H's
Homosexuals,  Hyperdermic uses, Haitians.  It is now across all walks of life - including innocent little kids born to innocent mothers  (how dare we judge them as sinners sheesh)
and NEVER was just a gay problem despite the countless "jokes"  over the years - Anally Inserted Death Sentence: etc  sheesh.

Hell if we are going to start judging gays, apart from the fact that only a moron would misquote the Bible that way, 
the "Church" has its fair share of gays as well - and probably the highest percentage per capita in the world. 
(I add the word "probably" in case any particular "Church" is brave enough to sue me on the matter .)

Proceeds from this song donated by Elton John to Aids victims.  About the only song of his I like . 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQn4CT6xTx0


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## Rafa (22 April 2007)

thanks for your comments 2020...
it certainly is a complicated matter, and a very tragic story all up. I certainly agree with most of your sentiments.

I notice you have writting something about population control in the drought thread...

pandemics and diseases are, as i am sure you are aware, is natures way of population control...

to bring it back to the topic... incidentally, so is giving guns to everyone... i.e. law of the jungle.


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## 2020hindsight (22 April 2007)

I'm sure we agree on some other topics Rafa , lol. - maybe not that one, (and it happens to be one I feel strongly about - that and my right to a beer fridge downstairs)  but it has nothing to do with this thread I concede.  I might post a poem on the subject - at least there I can claim poetic licence, and no one is entitled to criticize there. - unless it's done in a poem 

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/other/eureka.htm
Here's an incidental comment more out of interest. Eureka Stockade - note the comment :-


> A member of the Independent Californian Rangers Revolver Brigade can be seen at right, firing his revolver at the troops swarming over the breastwork.



Californian pistols at Eureka? slightly topical?
Another minor point - the Eureka flag was designed by one of the Canadians there.
Eureka was 1854 - American Civil War was 1861 - 65 .  
Somewhere from similar "rough hewn granite" we have managed to carve two democracies, one that believes in guns by the million, ...
and one (the saner one) that doesn't


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## bel532 (23 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> a. agreed
> b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,-  but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) -   are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)
> c. ( Y/N answer?) -  I'd agree.
> 
> ...




I stand by my statement that AIDS, in the main, is a self inflicted disease, but, with the rider, that this applies to the Western World. In Sub Saharan Africa it is somewhat different in that the males, because (a) their macho attitude to sex and (b) the poverty of the region, the AID virus is transmitted through anal intercourse, which, in that region of  world is practised as a form of contraception. 

It is evident that the GAY community is losing and/or ignoring the 'safe sex' message, at least in Vic, where there has been a rise in AIDS related infections due to their increased proclivity to engage in unprotected sex. The advent of powerful drugs has possibly given them a feeling of invincibilty.

You may call my opinion as 'outdated', but I prefer to call it 'realistic'. You are probably just being 'politically correct', well that's your choice.

I can't dispute your argument re the Vatican's attitutude towards sex. Its attitiude to sex is the prime reason  it has lost so many of its priests and nuns and is failing to attract them in sufficient numbers, although, I suppose, this maybe comensurate with falling church attendances. I have known a number of ex priests and nuns who have suffered mental agony in attempting to reconcile their beliefs with their innermost feelings and subsequently left the Catholic Church.


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## 2020hindsight (23 April 2007)

bel532 said:


> I can't dispute your argument re the Vatican's attitutude towards sex. Its attitiude to sex is the prime reason  it has lost so many of its priests and nuns and is failing to attract them in sufficient numbers, although, I suppose, this maybe comensurate with falling church attendances. I have known a number of ex priests and nuns who have suffered mental agony in attempting to reconcile their beliefs with their innermost feelings and subsequently left the Catholic Church.



bel, Are you saying that you think that (at least some) potential nuns and priests don't go there because they want a normal sexual life themselves , maybe marriage etc?  If they left to pursue a normal life good on em. In being honest and avoiding suspected lulus in the church's teachings, they are well on the way to an honest life.  And still leaves plenty of opportunities in World Vision etc where the aid is delivered without religious strings attached. 

My comments were more about what they tell others to do, not themsleves - I mean , sex is not a "sin", although unprotected sex is getting pretty close to "about as bludy stupid as you can possibly be") ( and of course knowingly risking passing on AIDS is attempted murder)

But for those things that DO qualify as sins (non sex matters) - I wish they spent as much time talking about "lead us not into temptation" and less about  "forgive us our trespasses".

And obviously I disgree with you 300% on your attitude to AIDS being self inflicted.  Even if it is the result of said stupidity, (actual percentage I'm guessing is about 66% compared to innocents about 33% - pure guess), ....I would say "forgive them father because they know not what they do, and we the church refuse to adjust our blinkers to help them, and prefer them to gamble with death about our arguably ludicrous edicts!".  

Sometimes I wonder if the first world is happy to let the AIDS epidemic run wild - all the more oxygen and resources for them in the future    (and btw, that's what I would call a "sin")

PS your comment about gays in Vic - I guess I would have to agree that the sympathy they deserve if they gamble is about the same as any other stupid gambler who lost.  I'd still feel sorry for em - but I concede, they were given every chance to avoid it. (not like the third world)


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## 2020hindsight (23 April 2007)

Would you sell a weapon to this man?
The Yanks seem to be determined to maintain his rights to such access - it's his right!
And I suspect NEWT GINGRICH should be taken to task for telling untruths. - or if true, then at least not publuic massacres (weapons amongst gangs I concede are harder to collect / rein in )

http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1904169.htm 


> More guns could have prevented US uni massacre: advocates
> Gun advocates in the United States say last week's massacre at Virginia Tech university may not have happened if students were allowed to carry concealed guns on campus.
> 
> *"This is a huge nail in the coffin of gun control," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defence League.*
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1903906.htm  University massacre may lead to minor changes of US gun laws


> TONY EASTLEY: Even with all the national soul searching over the Virginia Tech shootings, there seems little energy for a national gun debate, let alone a revision of America's gun laws.
> 
> There seems to be little moment for a blanket crackdown on any weapons, with one former high-profile politician claiming that Australian-style laws certainly didn't work.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (28 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIY_q-rbND8&NR=1
Virginia Tech - The Gunsman's Story - Newscast (Sick)
heaps of posts there of course.


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## Brujo (29 April 2007)

I never said that _I_ believe Americans need to get over 9/11, merely was referring to an article or quote that I saw.  I personally still get a bit emotional when I see the footage from that shocking day.

And agree, 9/11 was a deliberate effort directed at destroying lives, compared to AIDS which is more preventable.

But I can't subscribe to the view that AIDS is self-inflicted.  Maybe yes in developed nations, but the real death toll is ocurring in the third world, where it is nearly impossible to educate about AIDS and to give people access to prevention methods.

The comparison to the daily AIDS toll still, to me, is a real eye-opener and reality check. Similar to me whinging about not getting motivated to exercise to get rid of my spare tyre and then seeing a 30-year-old stroke victim getting spoon-fed in my mother-in-law's nursing home!

It's all relative!!!


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## 2020hindsight (29 April 2007)

Brujo
yep, you qualified that comment at the time (get over 9/11) - still you said it was food for thought, so .. I was just "chewing it over" 

Giuliani sure isn't about to forget.  Arguably too far the other way (never was prepared to talk to them even before 9/11).

Interesting article in Time about President Fuhgeddaboutit (Rudiy Giuliani is apparently frontrunner for Republican ticket) - current NY Mayor.  Not even prepared to talk to Arabs - "*in 1995 he unceremoniously kicked Arafat out of the UN related concert *for world leaders at the Lincoln Centre - just after Israel agreed to Palestinian self rule" - Clinton administration were courting Arafat at the time, but Giuliani said "I would not invite Arafat to anything anywhere any place." etc.  As Time concludes "*when it comes to diplomacy, Fuhgeddaboutit*"

"The second incident occurred just after 9/11. Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Tala handed Giuliani a cheque for USD $10 million to help relief efforts, but the cheque was accompanied by a press release in which the Prince said it was time to get to the roots of the problem in the Middle East, which included Palestinians "slaughtered" by Israel "while the world turns thye other cheek".  *Giuliani refused to accept the money. "There is no moral equivalent [for the 9/11 attacks]" he said.*  "And to suggest that there's a justification for it only invites this happening in thefuture.  It is highly irresponsible and very very dangerous." 

They (TIME) go on to say that they probably would do the same (paraphrasing),  BUT "*there is a difference between what is appropriate for a mayor and what is appropriate for a President*"   "*'I don't forget' is not a sufficiently flexible foreign policy doctrine"*

The following is NOT the same TIME article, just someone (US) writing to the editor at TIME. 


> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1615166,00.html
> 
> In "President Fuhgeddaboutit" [April 23], Joe Klein concluded that since Americans are tired of distinguishing between Sunnis and Shi'ites and tired of our disastrous involvement overseas, we would opt for a "fuhgeddaboutit" foreign policy. Americans want an end to the Iraq war, while Rudolph Giuliani supports the troop surge. Americans are also concerned about our international standing in the world. I think we would embrace a person who would talk to Arabs and, yes, even distinguish between Sunnis and Shi'ites. After suffering through eight years of the most corrupt, arrogant Administration, the last thing Americans want is a rude, corrupt, belligerent bully like Giuliani in the White House. I, for one, will take pragmatism and diplomacy any day.  Carol .., BLUE LAKE, CALIF.



meanwhile he is apparently frontrunner...  Both McCain or Giuliani seem locked into prolonging the Iraq war it seems (as I read it). despite " growing public calls for US troops to return home rapidly".  You would have to expect that there's a good chance that Democrats will get in in 2008 yes?


> http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1906620.htm
> McCain formally launches White House bid
> Republican Senator John McCain has formally confirmed he is running for the White House, seeking to revive a campaign bogged down by missteps, controversy over his support for the Iraq war, and lacklustre fundraising.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 April 2007)

Correction to prevoius - Mayor of NY until Dec 2001.
Just to get back on thread  - he was tough on crime and was pretty successful apparently..


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani Rudolph William Louis Giuliani III (born May 28, 1944) is an American lawyer, prosecutor, businessman, and Republican politician from the state of New York.
> 
> Giulani became a popular figure as a United States Attorney prosecuting medium/high-profile cases, including cases against organized crime and the tax evader Marc Rich. He served two terms as Mayor of New York City (1994–2001), during which time he was credited by many with initiating improvements in the city's quality of life and with a massive reduction in crime that would by 2005 make *New York City the country's safest major city*."
> 
> Others, however, criticized him as divisive and authoritarian[2] and disputed his role in reducing crime.[9] He gained notoriety for his use of the "perp walk" as a prosecutorial tool.[10] He then gained national attention for his appearances in the media during and after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center[3] that led him to be *named Time's 2001 Person of the Year[4] and be knighted by Queen Elizabeth II*.[5] His high media profile in the days following the attacks earned him the nickname "America's Mayor."




But again , that TIME article summarises that "The next US President is going to haveto be a nimble diplomat, willing ttalk tocountries people don't like and leaders considered abhorrent".

As that lady implies in her letter to the editor, when you're in a mess like the world is in at the moment, you have to be a bit pragmatic surely. 


> .... I think we would embrace a person who would talk to Arabs and, yes, even distinguish between Sunnis and Shi'ites. After suffering through eight years of the most corrupt, arrogant Administration, the last thing Americans want is a rude, corrupt, belligerent bully like Giuliani in the White House. I, for one, will take pragmatism and diplomacy any day



 This is the legacy of GW Bush - others will have to sort it out.


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## 2020hindsight (1 May 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200705/s1911471.htm
gee this must have been a tough decision  
doh


> Virginia tightens gun laws after uni massacre
> The US state of Virginia has moved to tighten its gun laws in the wake of last month's massacre on the campus of Virginia Tech University.
> 
> Virginia Governor, Timothy Kaine, has banned people who have been ordered to have involuntary mental health treatment from purchasing guns.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 May 2007)

A couple of nice songs written for the kids who died. 
- some talented people out there. - to "help the healing"  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G0hdZeK7ss  Virginia Tech Memorial-There's No Sunset in Virginia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPy1c3IT1V0&NR=1 Say My Name - Virginia Tech Tragedy Tribute


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