# Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Beijing



## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser will make her own protest over China's treatment of Tibet, refusing to attend the Beijing Games in August.

It will be only the second Olympic Games the four-times gold medallist has not attended since making her Olympic debut in Melbourne, in 1956.

"As a spectator, I am making my own statement by not going," Fraser told AAP.

"I support the Tibetans [but] I don't support the violence that the protesters are creating.

"It's a shame it's taken place during the torch relay but I don't think it will dampen the Olympic spirit at all," she said.

China should also never have been awarded the right to host the Games on account of their human rights record, she said.

"Mainly because of the human rights and what they've done to Tibet.

"When you hear the Tibetans tell their terrible stories about what the Chinese Government has done to them, and what their forces have done to them, it is just awful."

The future of the international Olympic torch relay is now in doubt after pro-Tibetan demonstrators shadowed the Olympic torch relay as it progressed through Europe, violently clashing with police and officials on the streets of London and Paris this week.

Local interest in the Games will remain strong even if the International Olympic Committee cuts the torch relay short, Fraser said.

"Here in Australia we are sport mad and we will watch the Olympics [on television] whatever happens in China," she said.

Fellow former Olympic swimmer Susie O'Neill has also spoken out over the torch controversy, saying the relay had been hijacked by protesters and should be scrapped.

"Everyday, everybody is talking about the Olympics but you've got bad publicity. So I'd probably just scrap it if it was me," O'Neill told ABC radio today.

"In retrospect I suppose it was pretty obvious that it was going to happen, [but] I just get a little bit angry when people use the Olympics as their protesting forum. It's so removed from politics."

The torch relay will continue in San Francisco tomorrow.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/fraser-boycotts-oympics/2008/04/09/1207420459674.html


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## sam76 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Another person jumping on the band wagon.

Even though she won't be going in any "Official" capacity, she doesn't win any respect from me.

Sport and politics shouldn't mix, Dawn

Her loss.


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## kyme (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

I saw her on tv saying she wouldn't go. Complained about some previous visit 10 years or so ago re wheelchair games or something. Her grievance was  about atrocious toilet/ shower facilities for handicapped people. Did say she wasn't sure of todays conditions, but didn't stop her critisicm. Disappointing to see her jumping on bandwagon.


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## Agentm (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

i think any young swimmer, will not understand why the regular legend dawn fraser is suddenly not going to support them.. there are many mentors that supported dawn in her career, and she is iconic and an inspiration to any team.. 

i guess sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand, and this time the team has to go without a legend that can generate amazing drive in atheletes..  huge call really..


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## juw177 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



> "It's a shame it's taken place during the torch relay but I don't think it will dampen the Olympic spirit at all," she said.




Ignorant woman. And isn't she "dampening the olympic spirit" by supporting the stir up?


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## Broadside (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Well if she feels strongly about it, I say all power to her for sticking to her beliefs.  It doesn't need to be taken as a slight to those who are going, it's a personal decision.


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## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Spot on Broadside.

Ignorant is not an appropriate description for someone voicing his/her own judgement call and she has. 

Pull your head in juw and get over the fact that there are a great number of people worldwide that support Tibet; over the next few days China will continue to be embarassed (I say few days because the tourch relay will end up being abandoned).


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## Timmy (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Aussie2Aussie said:


> It will be only the second Olympic Games the four-times gold medallist has not attended...




The other was?  Hope it wasn't Sydney...


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## metric (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

with 'our dawn' not there, the need for nations to provide 'replacement flags' has lessened.


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## juw177 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Aussie2Aussie, I see from your past posts you really want to find other people who will validate your prejudices against China.

There are people that share your views, rest assured, but you should also think for yourself instead of following the white Australian herd.


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## sam76 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

.....


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## Timmy (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



sam76 said:


> .....





LOL Sam...


opcorn:


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## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

juw, you really have shown your true colour.

As I have said before you make me laugh......I know exactly your type - let me guess, your about the same height as your mum (but you wish you were dads height), you feel threatened by anything that challenges your view of the world, your first experience with death was when you came home and told the wife that you had killed a deer for dinner, you both decided that you wouldnt tell the kids what kind of meat it is, but you would give a clue and let them guess. 
Your kids were eager to know what the meat was on your plates, so they beg you for the clue.

'Well' you said, 'It's what mummy calls me sometimes'.

One of your kids then screamed, 'Don't eat it.. its a f*cking ********!!!!!!!!


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## Pronto (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Will anyone really care (or even remember) by 8/8/08 whether Dawn is there or not?


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## metric (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> Aussie2Aussie, I see from your past posts you really want to find other people who will validate your prejudices against China.
> 
> There are people that share your views, rest assured, but you should also think for yourself instead of following the white Australian herd.




thats a bit rough. keep the racism out of it eh?!


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

gee whiz
the third thread on this


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## Prospector (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

I thought she just said that if she was a competitor now she would not be competing. Well, that was what she said on the ABC tonight.


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## doctorj (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> Ignorant woman. And isn't she "dampening the olympic spirit" by supporting the stir up?



Good on Dawn for standing up for what she believes and not bowing to those that claim there are times for morals and times to ignore them.


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## juw177 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



metric said:


> thats a bit rough. keep the racism out of it eh?!




None intended. I'm done with this silliness.

Was pointing out that he does not speak too kindly of minorities and the Chinese, apologies for the wrong use of words. And it looks like Aussie2Aussie just can't just let it go and makes a new thread on it.


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## juw177 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



doctorj said:


> Good on Dawn for standing up for what she believes and not bowing to those that claim there are times for morals and times to ignore them.




Yep. Brave of her to do what she believes is right. Ignorant because she does not know much about China and jumping on bandwagon.


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## doctorj (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> Ignorant because she does not know much about China and jumping on bandwagon.



No one does because international media access to China and freedom of the Chinese press is so limited.

What does make it out are stories of human rights abuse, violence, intimidation and many other morally offensive things. 

A quick search of Google shows that there are reports of human rights abuse in the contemporary media dating back to 1959.


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Prospector said:


> I thought she just said that if she was a competitor now she would not be competing. Well, that was what she said on the ABC tonight.



Prospector, 
I agree - Certainly she said that (and possibly since then she has said more than that maybe? ) - but in any case, it's one thing for a spectator to boycott the games (big deal) and another for a sportsperson. (who has trained for 4 years for this).  

Certainly in the ABC video she says the following (in answer to a question unheard)  "well the best thing for them to do about it, if they feel as strongly about it as they feel they do  (?) .. is not to go to Beijing and that is a strong boycott within themselves  - not that they  are being asked to boycott by anyone,  or by the Olympic Federation - but if they feel as strongly as that then they shouldn't go  - because they are not going to enjoy Beijing, not going to enjoy the Olympic Games, and they are not going to perform well.  

"Myself personally, I would be thinking twice about it, because I feel very strongly and I support the Tibetans, and I do believe that China is not doing the right thing by them as far as their human rights are concerned."  



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/09/2211827.htm
> click on video :"Dawn Fraser on whether she would boycott Beijing. See the full interview on ABC TV's Midday Report". (ABC News)



Midday Report not available as transcript yet.

PS As per A2A'a first post..



> "As a spectator, I am making my own statement by not going," Fraser told AAP.
> 
> "*I support the Tibetans [but] I don't support the violence that the protesters are creating*.


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Aussie2Aussie said:


> Dawn Fraser : ....
> 
> Local interest in the Games will remain strong even if the International Olympic Committee cuts the torch relay short, Fraser said.
> 
> "Here in Australia we are sport mad and *we will watch the Olympics [on television] whatever happens in China*," she said..




Hey - surely a TRUE boycott is not to watch it 

(PS I'd call that a sham protest Dawn, and lacking in cred   )



> Fellow former Olympic swimmer *Susie O'Neill *has also spoken out over the torch controversy, saying the relay had been hijacked by protesters and should be scrapped.
> 
> "Everyday, everybody is talking about the Olympics but you've got bad publicity. So I'd probably just scrap it if it was me," O'Neill told ABC radio today.
> 
> "In retrospect I suppose it was pretty obvious that it was going to happen, [but] I* just get a little bit angry when people use the Olympics as their protesting forum. It's so removed from politics*."



:iagree:


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## doctorj (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Would people have the same qualms about people not going to the olympics if it were being held in say, Zimbabwe, instead of China?

Australian cricketers haven't been going to Zim for some time, but it hasn't provoked the same protests as refusing to go to China for the Olympics.


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

dj, 
I posted somewhere that I didn't blame the cricketers for not going to Pakistan. 

To be honest I was thinking (mainly) that their safety couldn't be guaranteed (rather than political protest).    

PS I'm not aware of any sportsmen/women who have refused to go to Beijing yet, have you? (I've not long got home from work )


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

ps .. 
Main reason she's not going to go to Beijing is probably that she's too old to climb flagpoles ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_Fraser


> In 1965 Fraser retired from swimming, after the Australian Swimming Union placed her under a ten-year ban. Things had come to a head when, at the Tokyo Olympics, she marched in the opening ceremony against their wishes, wore an old swimsuit (which angered sponsors) because it was more comfortable, and, it was alleged, she climbed a flagpole in Emperor Hirohito’s palace, taking the Olympic flag.


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## Julia (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



2020hindsight said:


> "Myself personally, I would be thinking twice about it, because I feel very strongly and I support the Tibetans, and I do believe that China is not doing the right thing by them as far as their human rights are concerned."
> 
> 
> .




I've just picked out this part of 2020's post for convenience, not especially directing the question at you, 2020 but rather to everyone who has stated their "support for Tibet".

Perhaps I'm ignorant and ill informed or perhaps I've just not been all that fascinated, but could someone please explain to me just what they are supporting Tibet over?

I hear "human rights" frequently.  Could you describe exactly how China is denying Tibetans human rights?

What else do Tibetans want?

I'm not in any way challenging the view that Tibet has a case against China.  I'm just unclear as to exactly what China is doing to Tibetans?

With thanks.


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## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> None intended. I'm done with this silliness.
> 
> Was pointing out that he does not speak too kindly of minorities and the Chinese, apologies for the wrong use of words. And it looks like Aussie2Aussie just can't just let it go and makes a new thread on it.





Show me one example!

You wont because they dont exist. You trust that others wont look, while you make untrue statements.

You are truly a pathetic individual juw. Dont apologise when your intent was clear and you got called on it.

It appears to me that only one racist appears constantly on this site, review your own rants while you are at it.


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## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> Ignorant because she does not know much about China and jumping on bandwagon.




What would you know of her knowledge on anything??

Why jumping on the bandwagon - because her view is different to yours.


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## Bill M (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Julia said:


> Could you describe exactly how China is denying Tibetans human rights?
> With thanks.




Tibetan monks and children killed by Chinese troops
SOURCE 

It said an 18-year-old monk was killed and a 30-year-old monk was critically injured when security agents fired into the gathering.
SOURCE

Tibet's exiled government said Saturday that about 30 people had been killed during unrest in Lhasa, as Chinese troops locked down the city amid fierce international scrutiny ahead of the Olympics.
SOURCE

These are just a few of many similar reports.


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## Aussie2Aussie (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

And it is not just Tibet, lets not forget Chinas active support for North Korea, the Burmese military government and whats happening in Sudan to mention just a few.

Now before I get taged for being a racist agian, juw who sees everything in black and white (really) will come back with his usual racist slurs against me but put simply I am not a fan of Chinas foreign policy  and never have been.

If it makes you feel better juw, I dont agree with the US governements policy in Iraq nor on how they handled Afganistan and the Americans arent Chinese although they do have a large percentage of hispanics and negros - so I guess you can get me on that one.

The Chinese government actually believes the crap they put out about what a great bunch they are so they are absolutely shocked when others attack them, the same goes for the chinese people because they dont actually know everything that the government does due to censorship, not only at home but abroad as well.


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## juw177 (9 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Aussie2Aussie, please relax, it is only an internet forum. You dont need to take this so personally. It is not like you involved in the Olympics or is affected as a result of what is happening abroad.

It seems there are 2 versions of that original article. smh has conveniently omitted some paragraphs that condemned the boycotts.... strange, censorship perhaps?


http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...ijing-bombshell/2008/04/09/1207420464005.html


> Athletics legend and Olympic torch relay-runner Ron Clarke has weighed into the debate, saying the International Olympic Committee should not give in to protesters by cancelling the relay.
> 
> "That just encourages (them), every time they have a torch relay or have an Olympic event the best thing to do is to attack it and get more publicity,'' Clarke told AAP.
> 
> ...


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## juw177 (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Bill M said:


> Tibetan monks and children killed by Chinese troops
> SOURCE
> 
> It said an 18-year-old monk was killed and a 30-year-old monk was critically injured when security agents fired into the gathering.
> ...




But you still havent answered the question of what the Tibetans want and how Chinese are denying human rights.

We all know they get violent and clash with police and one side says this many people died and the Chinese officials says this many people died. They both have reason to exaggerate so who is right? At least the Chinese officials have released names of the innocent people killed by the current protest, not just a meaningless estimate.

You can always rely on western media to sympathise with Chinese dissidents.


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## INORE (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Well...my two cents...my cousin travis nederpelt has been training his whole god damn life for the olympics.....his parents have sacrificed everything to get him to this level and now people want him and hundreds of other competitors to just forget those life sacrifices....you idiots....take your protests into a forum with your own money and sacrifices and stop f*cking up the lives of all these athletes...


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## 2020hindsight (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

Inore, I also sympathise with those athletes. 
Here's Lisa Forrest's book btw. 
http://shop.abc.net.au/browse/product.asp?productid=165117


> BOYCOTT
> *In 1980, at the height of the Cold War, the Fraser government told the Australian Olympic Federation to boycott the Moscow Olympics, in response to the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan.* The AOF refused. *By the time the Australian team marched into the Opening Ceremony, the controversy had split Australian public opinion. *
> 
> The Olympic team had defied pressure from the highest levels – and unprecedented public criticism – and Australian sport would take years to recover. *Lisa Forrest was just sixteen when she was named captain of the women's Olympic swim team.* Boycott recounts her experiences of this bitter rift, at the height of the Cold War.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

PS You wonder if, as soon as Lisa heard that the 2008 Games would be in China , she knew there would be controversy, and set about writing that book, knowing it would hit the bookshelves in the midst of the furore.


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## Prospector (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*

I heard this morning that Dawn didn't go to Athens either!   

Aussie2Aussie, I am not a fan of our previous Government's Foreign Policy in Iraq, (as are many on this forum); so where exactly does that place our love for Australia, hmm?


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## Bill M (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> But you still havent answered the question of what the Tibetans want and how Chinese are denying human rights.



The Tibetans want an end to the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Here is a terrible list of how Chinese are denying human rights.

1. The peaceful buddhist country of Tibet was invaded by Communists China in 1949. Since that time, over 1.2 million out of 6 Tibetans have been killed, over 6000 monastaries have been destroyed, and thousands of TIbetans have been imprisoned.

2. In Tibet today, there is no freedom of speech, religion, or press and arbitrary dissidents continue.

3. The Dalai Lama, Tibet's political and spiritual leader, fled to India in 1959. He now lives among over 100,000 other Tibetan refugees and their government in exile.

4. Forced abortion, sterilization of Tibetan women and the transfer of low income Chinese citizens threaten the survival of Tibet's unique culture. In some Tibetan provinces, Chinese settlers outnumber Tibetans 7 to 1. 

More here at the source


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## chops_a_must (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



INORE said:


> Well...my two cents...my cousin travis nederpelt has been training his whole god damn life for the olympics.....his parents have sacrificed everything to get him to this level and now people want him and hundreds of other competitors to just forget those life sacrifices....you idiots....take your protests into a forum with your own money and sacrifices and stop f*cking up the lives of all these athletes...




I don't think anyone is seriously asking athletes to boycott. But it is going to be tough for a lot of athletes to emotionally deal with their joy etc. and the fun that they usually have with each other in the village, and the "spirit" of the games, when they know the citizens of the country they are in, are being murdered, and treated even more harshly, simply because of the fact that they themselves are there.

The fact that the IOC are disallowing the athletes their own voice, not allowing free contact with media, not allowing athletes to blog from the village freely for example, is ensuring that the games automatically become political. And you have to ask, why the hell aren't the athletes allowed to do whatever the hell they want outside of competition? After all, it is about them... isn't it?... Obviously not...


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## juw177 (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Bill M said:


> The Tibetans want an end to the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Here is a terrible list of how Chinese are denying human rights.
> 
> 1. The peaceful buddhist country of Tibet was invaded by Communists China in 1949. Since that time, over 1.2 million out of 6 Tibetans have been killed, over 6000 monastaries have been destroyed, and thousands of TIbetans have been imprisoned.
> 
> ...




Hmm, not again.
Almost all of that except maybe (3) is down right false. The Tibetan population actually tripled under Chinese rule. Today there is freedom of religion, and Tibetans are exempt from one child policy. I will not go into detail, but a search on google and you will find out what is really behind the dubious free tibet movement.

First some common history, the Mao cultural revolution period was tough on all minorities not just Tibetans.
Before Chinese rule, Dalai Lama enslaved the Tibetan population.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...ly-cloak/2007/05/22/1179601410290.html?page=1


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## Prospector (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



chops_a_must said:


> The fact that the IOC are disallowing the athletes their own voice, not allowing free contact with media, not allowing athletes to blog from the village freely for example, is ensuring that the games automatically become political. And you have to ask, why the hell aren't the athletes allowed to do whatever the hell they want outside of competition? After all, it is about them... isn't it?... Obviously not...




Athletes and officials have for many Olympics been required to sign these documents, so this is nothing new.  As far as the media goes, these clauses are designed to ensure that the athlete is able to concentrate on what they do best, which is compete, so any media opportunities are well managed.  They are designed to also limit the fiasco that can occur with security issues like Bombs (as in Atlanta); and the issue of the rower, Sally, from the last Olympics, although several athletes broke their contracts by speaking to media independently.  Too many people got hurt in that fiasco to let that happen again.  The clauses actually protect the athletes, which is probably hard to see as an outsider.


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## chops_a_must (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Prospector said:


> Athletes and officials have for many Olympics been required to sign these documents, so this is nothing new.  As far as the media goes, these clauses are designed to ensure that the athlete is able to concentrate on what they do best, which is compete, so any media opportunities are well managed.  They are designed to also limit the fiasco that can occur with security issues like Bombs (as in Atlanta); and the issue of the rower, Sally, from the last Olympics, although several athletes broke their contracts by speaking to media independently.




Yes, but what I am saying is that this method of ensuring that there are "no politics" at the games, automatically posits that they are inherently political. That's all I was saying. I understand why they do it, but at the same time, because of this, saying that the games are politics free, or should be, is completely laughable.

In terms of the contracts the athletes have to sign, what if they don't? Could you then have a situation where an athlete clearly earns a spot, but for ethical/ business/ commercial reasons imposed by the body (aside from drug testing etc.), that the athlete can't tolerate for religious or personal beliefs or what have you, is dumped from the team?

So it's pretty easy to see that right through, it is political.

I just do not understand why athletes shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion while over there. Especially considering a lot will have them on the human rights matter, they are human after all.


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## Julia (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Bill M said:


> The Tibetans want an end to the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Here is a terrible list of how Chinese are denying human rights.
> 
> 1. The peaceful buddhist country of Tibet was invaded by Communists China in 1949. Since that time, over 1.2 million out of 6 Tibetans have been killed, over 6000 monastaries have been destroyed, and thousands of TIbetans have been imprisoned.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your response, Bill.  However, the source could hardly be described as unbiased, could it!

I just wonder where all the outrage was when all the years of bloodshed and denial of any vestige of human rights has been happening in so many countries in Africa?   Would it all change for them if they could find a round faced, smiling, charismatic monk?


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## juw177 (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Julia said:


> I just wonder where all the outrage was when all the years of bloodshed and denial of any vestige of human rights has been happening in so many countries in Africa?   Would it all change for them if they could find a round faced, smiling, charismatic monk?




Has been happening for decades. In resource rich Africa, instead of free the Tibetans, it is free the gorillas and kick the African poachers off their homeland. (but that is another topic). Western media love to drum up gorilla conservation in Africa.

I guess the point is powerful people will always find guise to divide and pillage another country.


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## Aussie2Aussie (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



juw177 said:


> Hmm, not again.
> Almost all of that except maybe (3) is down right false.




juw, is there in China today, freedom of speech, religion, or press?


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## Aussie2Aussie (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Julia said:


> Thanks for your response, Bill.  However, the source could hardly be described as unbiased, could it!
> 
> I just wonder where all the outrage was when all the years of bloodshed and denial of any vestige of human rights has been happening in so many countries in Africa?   Would it all change for them if they could find a round faced, smiling, charismatic monk?




The greatest supporter of african dictators today is China, would the african populace be happier "if they could find a round faced, smiling, charismatic monk"? - absolutely.

Why are there problems in Sudan? Primarily because of Chinas desire to retain access to Sudans oil - 80% of Sudans oil goes to China, and China wants to keep it that way.


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## Prospector (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Aussie2Aussie said:


> Why are there problems in Sudan? Primarily because of Chinas desire to retain access to Sudans oil - 80% of Sudans oil goes to China, and China wants to keep it that way.




I heard this on the radio over the weekend.  I think Russia too was mentioned.

Everything bad in this world seems to come back to one think, OIL!  Or maybe two, RELIGION.


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## Aussie2Aussie (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Prospector said:


> I heard this on the radio over the weekend.  I think Russia too was mentioned.
> 
> Everything bad in this world seems to come back to one think, OIL!  Or maybe two, RELIGION.




Agree and its always those that just want to live thier lifes that suffer the most.

There is a massive battle going on worldwide for energy, the USA is loosing big time, China stole a big jump on them.

One aside, those same oil fields in Sudan are reported to be guarded by up to 4,000 Chinese PLA soldiers.


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## disarray (10 April 2008)

i'm finding the resurgence of chinese nationalism accompanying the whole olympic thing to be extremely interesting. its also amusing that the irony of the whole situation is totally lost on the chinese nationalists - namely 

1. the issue is largely one of tibetan nationalism vs chinese nationalism in the first place

2. chinese nationalists in the west are extremely vocal with their views while they are living in a society that guarantees freedom of speech and expression, unlike the homeland they are defending

3. chinese jump up and down when other nations such as japan or taiwan express any form of nationalism (yasikuni shrine etc.)

4. racial themes are prevalent (such as violence against Han, "native" references) yet aren't being discussed. whenever white society finds itself in conflict with another culture the race card is the first one played, its neat that asians aren't considered racist (although we know the truth is another matter). i wonder how the africans will fare should they come into conflict with chinese expansionist plans in continental africa?

nationalism has many many critics and as long as people express nationalist sentiments they will come in for a schelacking from the left. the torch protest relays in europe were especially virulent and bear the hallmark of socialist / anarchist / globalist / radical green alliances who frequently take up with an allied cause (freedom, human rights etc.) and engage in aggressive action.

the olympics is just a sideshow, turning attention to china while issues of nationalism, human rights and so on are aired. generally the chinese are reclusive and inscrutible so its not common for this level of attention to be shone upon it, but should they become the world power they are striving to be, it will be a lot more common.


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## Aussie2Aussie (10 April 2008)

All very good points disarray.


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## 2020hindsight (10 April 2008)

*Re: Australian Olympic legend Dawn Fraser to boycott Bejing*



Prospector said:


> I heard this morning that Dawn didn't go to Athens either!



Was she protesting eating olives maybe? 

PS I am totally for keeping diplomatic pressure on China to improve human rights record - Tibet, Darfur, Burma included. 
As Rudd is currently doing. 
Just that it's not a problem-belong-athletes, thassall (imo). 

PS Gee the Aussie Olympic athletes must be getting alarmed at the way things are going


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## Pager (10 April 2008)

Would Dawn be doing this if she was still swimming today? Probably not, the only people who will suffer from the stupid out bursts by ex Olympians are the current crop of athletes.

Keep politics out of sport.


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## 2020hindsight (10 April 2008)

disarray said:


> the torch protest relays in europe were especially virulent and bear the hallmark of socialist / anarchist / globalist / radical green alliances who frequently take up with an allied cause (freedom, human rights etc.) and engage in aggressive action.





Aussie2Aussie said:


> All very good points disarray.




hey A2A, I thought you were in favour of the (virulant anarchist) torch protests


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## juw177 (10 April 2008)

For those wondering why all of a sudden the US are jumping up and down about violence in Darfur when the US has military bases all over Africa sponsoring wars that cost billions of lives. You guessed it, because China got a piece of the pie... and lots of media censorship.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/ten-reasons-why-save-darfur-is-a-pr-scam/
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/...its-time-to-demilitarize-us-policy-in-africa/



> “Save Darfur will not say exactly how much it has spent on its ads, which this week have attempted to shame China, host of the 2008 Olympics, into easing its support for Sudan. But a coalition spokeswoman said the amount is in the millions of dollars.”


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## Aussie2Aussie (11 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> hey A2A, I thought you were in favour of the (virulant anarchist) torch protests




Again an assumption by you, if you can show where I even suggest that I did I would be surprised.


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## juw177 (11 April 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> Again an assumption by you, if you can show where I even suggest that I did I would be surprised.




You never supported anything Beijing Olympic, you wanted a olympic boycott. As I said before, you are taking this thread a little too personally.


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## Aussie2Aussie (11 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> You never supported anything Beijing Olympic, you wanted a olympic boycott. As I said before, you are taking this thread a little too personally.




Where on earth in my last response do you see me taking anything you say as personal, (although you calling me a racist would be enough provocation) can you distinguish between you saying "I thought you were in favour of the (virulant anarchist) torch...." and me replying, which is a natural response to a question, with "Again an assumption by you, if you can show where I even suggest that I did I would be surprised." as taking things personal.

Can you see the difference between Olympic boycott and tourch relay?

Back on the meds juw!

Now thats personal.


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## 2020hindsight (11 April 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> Again an assumption by you, if you can show where I even suggest that I did I would be surprised.



Guess I assumed that you started this (third) thread because you agreed with it - especially when you went on to back broadside (post #7),  - but I guess you are saying now that you don't feel strongly about the issues, just that Dawn isn't going to Beijing.  

PS I concede that there are demonstrations and demonstrations.  - violent and nonviolent.   Just that the way you were talking, I figured you were ready to be seen in public holding a placard at least.  - Maybe not.


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## Aussie2Aussie (11 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Guess I assumed that you started this (third) thread because you agreed with it - especially when you went on to back broadside (post #7),  - but I guess you are saying now that you don't feel strongly about the issues, just that Dawn isn't going to Beijing.
> 
> PS I concede that there are demonstrations and demonstrations.  - violent and nonviolent.   Just that the way you were talking, I figured you were ready to be seen in public holding a placard at least.  - Maybe not.




1. I started this thread because it is a news worthy item that would have been lost in the "boycott" thread. 

2.  2020 says "assumed that you started this (third) thread because you agreed with it". I dont see anywhere in the lead story where anyone mentions Fraser as agreeing to it. Is it both you and juw that cant comprehend what you read. Get over the fact that this is the "3rd" olympic thread - I have noted your comments the other 2 times.

3. The torch protests is an entirely different matter to boycotts, which is what juw referenced "hey A2A, I thought you were in favour of the (virulant anarchist) torch protests". So why confused??
3a. Boycott - response to others thread, expressed an opinion, in favour.
3b. Dawn Fraser - posted thread, expressed an opinion, in favour of her right to choose.
3c. Torch protests - subject introduced into thread - part of thread story (Fraser actually says "its a shame" and that she against the violence that its happening), no expressed opinion

4.  I backed Broadside, because to call someone ignorant as juw did, implies that he was aware of her understanding of the issues, which I doubt he does and implies that her understanding is flawed, which I have yet to be convinced that it is.


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## juw177 (11 April 2008)

Maybe he does not like to disrupt the torch relay but he sure disrupted his thread.


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## Aussie2Aussie (11 April 2008)

I agree juw, 2020 should not have responded to my question to you.

So, do you want to answer?


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## 2020hindsight (11 April 2008)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-boycott11apr11,1,1995138.story


> A Japanese craftsman's one-man Olympic boycott
> The maker of iron shots favored by elite shot-putters refuses to produce any for the Beijing Games to protest China's Tibet policy.
> By Bruce Wallace, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
> April 11, 2008
> TOKYO -- Masahisa Tsujitani is getting a lot of attention these days for a man who has spent much of the last 40 years bent over a lathe in a garage workshop, where amid the sharp smell of burnt oil and iron he grinds out some of the finest 16-pound shots ever tossed by Olympic athletes....






> "I feel badly for the athletes who won't get to use my shots, but after Tibet I know I'm right," he said last week. "Enough is enough."
> 
> With his one-man boycott of the Games, Tsujitani has become a reluctant hero here among those unhappy with the muted response of politicians to China's crackdown on dissent in and near Tibet. Japan's political class has uttered barely a peep of protest, with Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda saying only that he would "welcome talks between the concerned parties in a way acceptable to both sides."
> 
> ...




ok - Japanese politicians are wimps.
At least Rudd told em straight 

PS You'd think a lump of steel would be pretty easy to make 

PS A2A, I didn't realise I was answering your question. - but thanks for your response.  I am personally pretty confused on this one myself. Would be brilliant if there was some sort of acceleration of the move to "meaningful autonomy" that the Dalai Lama has publicly expressed as his preference for Tibet.   I just hope the Olympics is also a success.- for the sake of the sportsmen/ women who have given 4 years of training to this.  

Incidentally I was responding to the general trend of a few threads on this - including Superfly's boycott thread - references to Hicks and Haneef etc (??) 

and Disarray's broad swipe back there that people who participate in public demonstrators tend to be fringe-dwellers i.e. 
a) to protest anything anywhere implies that you're from the looney left
b) except for this one for some reason. 

PS I have never carried a placard either.


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## 2020hindsight (11 April 2008)

continued..
"China - an opportunity or a threat" - interesting turn of phrase 



> Top-level relations have since thawed, even as the Japanese public remains conflicted over *whether to treat China as an opportunity or a threat*.
> 
> Unlike his most recent predecessors, Fukuda has been an advocate of a Beijing-friendly foreign policy, calling China an indispensable partner and nurturing the warming diplomatic mood.
> 
> No government officials were allowed to meet the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, during a 10-day visit to Japan last fall shortly after Fukuda took office. And diplomats here acknowledge that Fukuda is loath to take a hard line over Tibet ahead of Chinese President Hu Jintao's arrival next month for a summit that Tokyo is eager to see go off without a hitch.





> Still, Tsujitani doesn't want the athletes to be hurt by a boycott, and said it was a pity they won't be able to use his shots. The politicians should stay away, he said. Not the athletes



.
sounds like he's got the shots, and Beijing can go skip rope.


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## >Apocalypto< (11 April 2008)

F#@K Dawn Fraser!


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## 2020hindsight (11 April 2008)

continued

... kind of ironic that the Japanese would judge the Chinese on Human rights 

this show currently on SBS :-



> As It Happened
> Friday, April 11, 8.30pm
> Channel: SBS
> Duration: 60 minutes
> ...



"barbaric acts that cost the lives of 15 million Chinese "
"but the older soldiers didn't just want to kill them, they wanted to rape them first"


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## robert toms (12 April 2008)

Yes I watched the show,I have read accounts of Nanking over a long period.
Human rights...as the SBS programme said that the Japanese considered Chinese as inferior .When this happens human rights are not considered.
The inferior become a kind of sub-human group and any treatment dished out to them does not register on the conscience scale.
Just a few examples...the Nazis attitude to Jews,the Jews to Palestinians,the US to Iraqis (torture etc),the attitude to Vietnamese during the conflict with the US...they were portrayed as devoid of human feelings etc,what sort of people would throw their children overboard ? etc etc etc
When you de-humanise the others you are able to treat them how you wish...without resorting to your conscience.
I do not think that anything in Tibet approaches these scenarios...


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> When you de-humanise the others you are able to treat them how you wish...without resorting to your conscience.
> I do not think that anything in Tibet approaches these scenarios...



agree with all of that rob 
(not that we should ignore the Tibetan plight obviously)

:topic btw, leading into anzac day and all, remember that China lost a lot more than we did in WWII. (in fact a lot of countries did - when you include the civilian casualties)    

Poland 16.10% (majority Jewish)
Russia 13.77% 
...
China 3.8%
...
NZ 0.67%  
Aus 0.58%
.....
USA 0.32%

There were twelve times the percentage of Chinese who died at the hands of the Japanese, 
 than Americans (USA) who died on all fronts in that war.  
I guess what I'm trying to say is, when we lecture the Chinese about what it feels like to be persecuted - I'm guessing they already know.  

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...43736&highlight=disproportionately#post143736


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

kennas posted this article on POLITICS thread. ..
Imagine subjecting other countries to Brendan's bs were he to become PM.  
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23525541-2,00.html



> The third was Dr Nelson's inability this week to articulate a clear position on China and Tibet - he was even contradicted by senior colleagues - as the Prime Minister performed strongly on the issue on the last leg of his 17-day world tour.
> 
> ... this week insisted the Prime Minister should attend the Olympics even though other democratic leaders were considering staying away from the opening ceremony in protest at China's recent crackdown in Tibet.
> 
> ...




I heard Nelson being interviewed on ABC yesterday - full of criticism against Rudd - then against the Chinese - then against etcetc .  Then he was asked "so, if the AOC decided to boycott the Olympics, would you support that?" - 
answer "that is a matter entirely for the AOC".

as Charlie Brown would say, "hey, I've got an idea! - maybe I could be wishy one day - and washy the next!!"


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

Beijing Airport's New Terminal Set to Open
 The New Beijing Airport Terminal 3 Looks Similar To A UFO

The world's biggest airport opened in Beijing last month

It is 17% bigger that all five terminals at London;s Heathrow airport put together.  - will serve 50 million people annually by 2020 
(and what will that do to global warming and/or pollution). 

The triangular skylights meant to look like scales of a dragon etc.



			
				2020 said:
			
		

> Then he was asked "so, if the AOC decided to boycott the Olympics, would you support that?" -
> answer "that is a matter entirely for the AOC".



PS correction to previous... on recollection, I think the question was "so, if the AOC decided to boycott the Olympic *Torch relay*" - sorry.
but the answer was a complete hide-behind-the-AOC's-apron.


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

:topic , The architecture olympics?

PS maybe a lot of that steel (44,000 tonnes) in the "Birdsnest" is Australian origin?  started as red dirt in the Pilbara?  now the main arena for the next Olympics? - complete with a few molecules of the Abs and the settlers and the explorers and the Dirk Hartogs and the Dampiers and their crews etc who wandered the Pilbara,  - a few molecules of their ashes end up mixed with the iron ore? maybe?

 Bird's Nest - Herzog & De Meuron in China.

 Architecture Olympics * T3 Beijing Stadium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxzFxHR660&NR=1


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