# Earth Hour Tonight



## agro (29 March 2008)

I might as well contribute my bit to the earth and my own savings in electricity 



> Earth Hour is an international event that asks households and businesses to turn off their lights and non-essential electrical appliances for one hour on the evening of 29 March at 8PM local time until 9PM to promote electricity conservation and thus lower carbon emissions.




anyone else participating?


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## GreatPig (29 March 2008)

I did even better: turned all that stuff off for about 8 hours between midnight and 8am. 

GP


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## agro (29 March 2008)

GreatPig said:


> I did even better: turned all that stuff off for about 8 hours between midnight and 8am.
> 
> GP




valid point caus i do that too


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## Aussiejeff (29 March 2008)

Heard a chap from the VIC electricity generating mob this morning, warning that when everything gets switched back on tonight at the same times, there is the possibility of blackouts occuring due to temporary overload. 

Also that they will have to try and "soak up" the sudden drop in generation demand (do they have big resistance loads?) to try and decrease the expected load fluctuations. So maybe the hoped for reduction in generation emissions might not be so great?

Good topic for Smurf to comment on!


AJ


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## agro (29 March 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Heard a chap from the VIC electricity generating mob this morning, warning that when everything gets switched back on tonight at the same times, there is the possibility of blackouts occuring due to temporary overload.
> 
> Also that they will have to try and "soak up" the sudden drop in generation demand (do they have big resistance loads?) to try and decrease the expected load fluctuations. So maybe the hoped for reduction in generation emissions might not be so great?
> 
> ...




never really thought about that but who says everything will be switched on all at 9pm? 

never the less, would b interesting to c the number of babies born comes months after this ocassion


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

couple of funny comments on ABC ...
There's a footy match in Goulburn or somewhere - the options include
a) dim the lights only, or 
b) have them all running around with battery powered miner's helmets


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## trishan9390 (29 March 2008)

Reading somewhere that last year Sydneysiders managed to cut electricity consumption in the hour by 10.2%. Fair effort that. I expect a bigger reduction this year. I won't be home at 8pm tonight, but I will switch everything off before I go out.

Someone also said to look at the skyline at 8pm and you should notice a marked difference.

I know here in Melb Fed Square will be switching off lights, parliament house is another and the harbour bridge in Syd.


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## agro (29 March 2008)

trishan9390 said:


> Reading somewhere that last year Sydneysiders managed to cut electricity consumption in the hour by 10.2%. Fair effort that. I expect a bigger reduction this year. I won't be home at 8pm tonight, but I will switch everything off before I go out.
> 
> Someone also said to look at the skyline at 8pm and you should notice a marked difference.
> 
> I know here in Melb Fed Square will be switching off lights, parliament house is another and the harbour bridge in Syd.




yes which was equivalent to the yearly pollution output of 50,000 cars

i am no greenie but with the funny weather of late i think every bit counts


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## GreatPig (29 March 2008)

trishan9390 said:


> Someone also said to look at the skyline at 8pm and you should notice a marked difference.



You won't be able to see the smog so easily?

GP


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## Julia (29 March 2008)

I won't be doing anything any differently.  Even the organisers have conceded it is a symbolic event.


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Heard a chap from the VIC electricity generating mob this morning, warning that when everything gets switched back on tonight at the same times, there is the possibility of blackouts occuring due to temporary overload.
> 
> Also that they will have to try and "soak up" the sudden drop in generation demand (do they have big resistance loads?) to try and decrease the expected load fluctuations. So maybe the hoped for reduction in generation emissions might not be so great?
> 
> ...



Yes there is some possibility of blackouts if there is a sudden large increase in load at 9pm. Other than hydro and gas turbines (not gas-fired steam turbines) the power stations can't ramp up too quickly in response to a very sudden increase in load. 

As for the "soak up" bit, what they mean is one of two things:

1. Boilers have a minimum fuel throughput below which they can not reliably operate. This varies but is 20 - 65% of maximum rating depending on the boiler design and fuel being used. If you need to run generation below that level then you just keep burning fuel and let the excess steam out (ie total waste of the fuel). 

Hydro turbines can run anywhere from 0 to 100% load without technical problems BUT they do lose efficiency at either low or very high load. For most schemes, peak efficiency is at 60 to 90% of full load.  Running at low efficiency reduces total annual output since the water volume is limited - coal or gas plants will thus run more to make up for this loss.

2. Some loads are able to be switched on in order to keep demand up. Remote switched off-peak hot water in Qld and NSW and water pumping in various locations are most of that load.

That said, I'd be surprised if total load fell more than 1% at the most which can be easily accommodated.

...

I will post some figures for total load in Qld, NSW/ACT, Vic, Tas and SA so you can see for yourself if it had any impact. Times will be 19:30, 20:30 and 21:30 local time. Earth Hour runs 20:00 - 21:00.

I will also post figures from 2 weeks earlier (not using last week as it was easter which has a significant impact on load) so you can see the normal variation in power demand between those times on a Saturday night.


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

I'm guessing that it's sure to be only a symbolic gesture
- heck the kids will have such fun lighting candles they'll probably more than compensate in a negative sense
- having said that, the message will hopefully get into their little heads that energy comes at a price
- or reinforce that concept if it's not already there
- and they'll take that with em through to adulthood 
- and that surely can't be a bad thing 

PS I suspect kids get a fair bit of this sort of grilling at school these days anyways.


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## Wysiwyg (29 March 2008)

It will be interesting to see who posts on ASF during that time.


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

smurf said:
			
		

> I will post some figures for total load in Qld, NSW/ACT, Vic, Tas and SA so you can see for yourself if it had any impact. Times will be 19:30, 20:30 and 21:30 local time. Earth Hour runs 20:00 - 21:00.



thanks smurf  
I was gonna ask how you'd check the 20:30 value without turning on your computer   - in line with wysiwyg's post.  
btw (off topic) but how do you check the level of Eucumbine btw.  ? thanks in advance.



Wysiwyg said:


> It will be interesting to see who posts on ASF during that time.



heck wys, you never know, Joe might nail his green credentials to the mast and close down the site for an hour


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> heck wys, you never know, Joe might nail his green credentials to the mast and close down the site for an hour



then again, given the number of Kiwis round here, from 8pm Auckland to 9pm Perth is 5 hours I guess.  (or 3 hours Syd - Perth)


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## moneymajix (29 March 2008)

:iagree:

Yeh, I will participate. I have the beeswax candle ready.

I think it is more than symbolic as it gets people thinking about how they use electricity each day.

Has spread quickly and this year many countries are participating after starting in Sydney last year. 




A great Aussie idea similar to Clean Up day which has spread worldwide.


:walker:


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 March 2008)

I'm a little concerned that all you big city people will become disorientated in the dark. 

What with seeing the night sky for possibly the first time and then maybe knockover some candles.

You might inadvertently set fire to your houses or units.

Maybe you should have a dry run and just close your eyes for 60 minutes and stay awake during the experience, then if things get out of hand you can open your eyes. 

But then living in a big city you may not want to open your eyes. 

Better to turn the lights off. 

I will be watching TV and leaving my lights on. 

gg


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

beeswax - gee whiz mm - you da boss 

The missus says she's either 
a) watching , or 
b) videoing 
the swimming and that's that! - and taking the hour "later" - 
(maybe to coincide with London ?  - just a jest  )

So I've conceded, you might as well watch then  - because to video it (record) then playback is probably twice (or three times) the energy. 

PS maybe the TV channels should close down


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What with seeing the night sky for possibly the first time ..



Bludy good point.
They should've had an earth hour during the passage of Halley's Comet in 
Jan/Feb 1986 for starters (from memory) 
bludy light pollution


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## Wysiwyg (29 March 2008)




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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

Lady in the shower with her husband
knock at the door
she wraps herself in a towel 
she looks through window - notices it's the neighbour Bob 
opens the door  "hi Bob" 
"say, dont forget Earth Hour"!
"ok" she says
"btw" he says "I'll give you $800 if you drop your towel"
she ponders for a while, then thinks, heck 800 is 800 !!
drops the towel. 
Bob feasts his eyes, then thanks her, hands over the $800, and leaves.
she returns to the shower with her husband
"who was that?" he asks
"just Bob the neighbour"
"aahh great - and did he give you the 800 bucks he owes me?"  

PS .  You can even do half power posts!  (which only make sense when you highlight them 

PS it's a trick I learnt speed reading.


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## agro (29 March 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


>




exactly what i might do.. under a candle 

looking foward to seeing the number of participants within my area..

doubt the local council will turn of the street lights though


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## Kimosabi (29 March 2008)

We are obviously close to the apex of Sheeple conditioning...

Why don't we have something useful like a build you own Hydrogen Water Fuel Cell to install in your car to save the consumption of Fossil Fuels Night instead of this stupid Earth Hour bullsh1t...





To watch all 673 Hydrogen Fuel Cell videos on Youtube, click here ==> http://au.youtube.com/results?search_query=hho+fuel+cell&search_type=

And for all you Global Warming Dupes out there, I'm predicting the Southern Hemisphere winter to be one of the coldest on record, I'm even going predict snow falling on Cottesloe Beach this winter...


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

mate just rang from Auckland 
 says the house is in pitch darkness - for earth hour etc - 
and asks me "is it 9 oclock yet?"


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2008)

There has been a bit of a drop in load in NSW/ACT, Vic and Tas. Between 2 and 4% depending on location.

More info to come.


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## Spaghetti (29 March 2008)

We have the candles buring already. Still not time up here but someone in my house very eager.... (like do we need THAT many candles) lol.

I must say the candlelight makes my living room looks gorgeous. However I did trip over the dog already and have fire department number at hand.


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## freddy2 (29 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> We have the candles buring already. Still not time up here but someone in my house very eager.... (like do we need THAT many candles) lol.
> 
> I must say the candlelight makes my living room looks gorgeous. However I did trip over the dog already and have fire department number at hand.




You do realise that the amount of pollution put out by the candles is significantly more than if you just left your lights on?


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## The Ferret (29 March 2008)

I was going to drape my entire house and property with lighting effects, spot lights and fairy-lights strung out to form the word "RUBBISH"...

But, alas, didn't have time to organise it in time. There's always next year I guess....


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## MRC & Co (29 March 2008)

We can sure tell who is not contributing by who is online now! At least those in this timezone!


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## Spaghetti (29 March 2008)

ooops


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## Spaghetti (29 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> We can sure tell who is not contributing by who is online now! At least those in this timezone!




Battery power !


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## TheIceMan (29 March 2008)

what a load of hogwash that was.

it was so symbolic, I'm suprised some labour strategist hasn't adopted it as govt policy yet.


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

well symbolic or not , it was an emphatic vote for energy conservation (and/or awareness at least). 
My street still in darkness , and it's 9.25 

PS Unfortunately (just now) I took the dog for a walk to soak up the atmosphere, and accidentally set off someone's garage driveway remote sensor 

PS Iceman, - the world has adopted it man - Australia is a leader yet again 

PS tayser (next post , but I'll edit this one instead of a new post) - daughter is in CBD Sydney - says it's had absolutely no effect there (iho).


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## tayser (29 March 2008)

I have a clear view of Melb's CBD with southbank in the foreground: Eureka's aviation warning lights were switched off (stupidity), many apartments - in the tower itself and all the other CE pieces of **** - still had lights on and it looks as if the 101 and 120 Collins St building owners only decided to switch the spires off and Rialto's owner decided to turn the neon's off - still many lights on.  Yawn?


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## The Ferret (29 March 2008)

TheIceMan said:


> what a load of hogwash that was.
> 
> it was so symbolic, I'm suprised some labour strategist hasn't adopted it as govt policy yet.




Agreed. Rubbish... not a single atom of CO2 saved. It's a sham.

Should be called "Girth Shower"....


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## TheIceMan (29 March 2008)

2020 - I think your street is in darkness because everyone else has gone out.

Just love those in todays paper who were asked whether they would turn their lights off. Answer: I would if I was home but I'm going out tonight.


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2008)

Figures to come later but a few observations around Hobart (been for a bit of a look around town).

Virtually 100% of CBD buildings dark. But then that's normal on a Sat night anyway so nothing really different. Only really notable things were the Tasman Bridge lights being off, the council has turned off the Salamanca fairy lights as well as their own building's decorative lighting. Wrest Point turned off the floodlights. Marine Board building looked very black. Hydro building is occupied but still only a couple of lamps seemed to be on. 

Only one that looked sus was lights on in the MBF building. A few on in the Police and Fire stations but that's likely to be legit. Parliament house still floodlit but arguably necessary for safety and security given the location and it is Saturday night. 

Noticed a few household lights going out at 8 but it was a minority. I'd guess maybe 15% at the most.

I'm aware of one instance which has skewed the most commonly looked at NEMMCO data which doesn't include most small generation sources (including most wind farms). The output changed significantly during Earth Hour thus producing a larger drop in output from the major generation sources than would otherwise have been the case. Possibly legit for operational reasons and not an attempt to skew the data as such but it did have that effect.


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## tigerboi (29 March 2008)

What a non event dreamed up by the al gore crowd,just another con job believed by the disciples,numbskulls


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## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

TheIceMan said:


> 2020 - I think your street is in darkness because everyone else has gone out.



lol - probably some truth in that iceman - then again, there were plenty of lights on at 7.55pm  

I just stayed at home and gave the fridge a workout


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## Wysiwyg (29 March 2008)

agro said:


> exactly what i might do.. under a candle
> 
> looking foward to seeing the number of participants within my area..
> 
> doubt the local council will turn of the street lights though




Well agro i didn`t eye one word because there was cleaning to be done (with elbow grease) and beyond an hour disappeared real quick and it was fun doing things by candle light.

No neighbours in eyesight of me turned off, which is understandable.How did you go or are you still reading?


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## roland (29 March 2008)

An hour without security lighting must be a Godsend for our local criminals - probably a red circle day on the calander for the "darker" sides of our communities


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2008)

Looking at actual load changes and assuming that most turned the lights back on at 9pm, I would say the overall drop is roughly as follows (rounded to the nearest 0.5%). 

This is somewhat subjective since load is constantly variable anyway.

Qld -2.5%
NSW -1.5%
Vic - 2.0%
Tas - 2.5%
SA - Nil

Sorry but I don't have data for WA and NT.

For some actual facts and figures (make of them what you will). All figures are in MW and are load within the state rather than generation.

19:30 local time 2 weeks ago / today 

Qld - 6313 / 5980 
NSW/ACT - 9485 / 8612 
Vic - 6824 / 5802 
Tas - 1209 / 1341 
SA - 2278 / 1405 

20:30 local time 2 weeks ago / today

Qld -  5876 / 5519 
NSW/ACT - 9245 / 7950 
Vic - 6758 / 5583 
Tas - 1232 / 1328 
SA - 2234 / 1375 

Looking at those figures, seems to be a small effect in Qld, NSW, Vic and Tas but again nothing really happened in SA.

The above data half way through the event suggests a larger drop in NSW than does my estimate based on what happened at 9pm. So the overall effect seems to be 2 - 5% depending on what assumptions you make etc.

Some official figures are being compiled but again they have the problem that each day is different anyway to it's not a simple exercise to compare with / without Earth Hour. Weather is a far greater driver of overall demand than Earth Hour and no two Saturday nights have exactly the same weather (needs to be recent to avoid skewing due to economic growth etc) which makes a fair analysis difficult.

Qld and Tas have a high proportion of industrial load which will tend to mask any drop in household consumption. SA is very much at the other end by both local and world standards - it's one of the few places where residential load is the dominant influence on overall consumption. And Earth Hour looks to have been a fizzer in SA.

Overall, I'd accept any figure between 2 and 5% as being valid for total electricity consumption. Too many complexities to be any more precise than that. Any claim of 10, 20% etc is either outright wrong or is looking only at part of the grid with a high concentration of city buildings etc and not at the grid and power stations as a whole.


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## Julia (29 March 2008)

TheIceMan said:


> what a load of hogwash that was.
> 
> it was so symbolic, I'm suprised some labour strategist hasn't adopted it as govt policy yet.



Ice Man, you are clearly not up to speed!  They just love it.  Even heard the good Mr Rudd all the way from America this evening saying what a great idea it was.   Ah, we just love symbolism.  Sounds great to the masses but we don't actually have to do a thing.


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2008)

TheIceMan said:


> 2020 - I think your street is in darkness because everyone else has gone out.
> 
> Just love those in todays paper who were asked whether they would turn their lights off. Answer: I would if I was home but I'm going out tonight.



Anecdotally, there do seem to be quite a few more people out and about tonight. There was actually a bit of a party feel (NYE style) around town and that was only at 8:30.

Considering all the taxis, cars etc being used I suspect that total CO2 emissions have probably increased overall. Less from power stations, more from exhaust pipes.


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## TheIceMan (29 March 2008)

I think they may have missed a great photo opportunity (will have to check my papers tomorrow).

Can you imagine, Penny Wong and Peter Garrett cuddled up on the banks of Sydney harbour holding a candle, overlooking a silhouette of the harbour bridge.


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## blehgg (30 March 2008)

haha, 

Nova in Brisbane was tryin to get everyone laid ~ 

Best way to pass an hour I guess ~ and you don't need any electricity


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## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

blehgg said:
			
		

> Best way to pass an hour I guess ~ and you don't need any electricity



so would they call that man-made GW ? - or woman-made? 
What's that old joke?
Do you smoke after intercourse?
Gee, I don't know, - never looked ! 



			
				smurf said:
			
		

> Overall, I'd accept any figure between 2 and 5% as being valid for total electricity consumption



Say Smurf, Thanks for all those calcs / effort 

But - Suppose instead of 20% of houses turning off 100% of their lights for one night - 
you had 100% of houses turning off 20% of their lights (etc) every night....( i.e. a more reliable thing where the waste power wasn't diverted to making steam.. )
would you not expect a more significant reduction. 

(not to mention more efficient off-peak hot water systems etc)

Btw, claims of 10% by Energy Australia ...
then again between 7.30 (when everyone was frantically cooking  and/or microwaving) and 8.30, might give a distorted result . 

Also 57% participation in sydney according to polling . 

http://wwf.org.au/news/congratulations-sydney-earth-hour-2007-results/



> Congratulations Sydney! Earth Hour 2007 results
> 02 Apr 2007
> 
> More than 2 million Sydney residents joined Earth Hour on Saturday March 31 between 7.30 and 8.30 by flicking the switch, turning appliances off stand-by and enjoying an hour of quiet darkness, according to poll results.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Btw, claims of 10% by Energy Australia ..




oops - sorry - did that in a hurry before Insiders 
that was 2007 results lol. 

Too early for official results for last night (2008) yet apparently. 

http://voanews.com/english/2008-03-29-voa4.cfm


> Environmentalists say more than *370 towns and cities across Asia, Europe and North America *will also take part in Earth Hour this year.
> 
> Environmentalists say *last year more than two million people and two thousand businesses turned off their lights for one hour in Sydney, cutting energy consumption by 10 percent*.
> 
> Other cities officially involved in "Earth Hour" include Atlanta, Montreal, Odense and Tel Aviv along with communities in the South pacific island states of Tuvalu and Fiji.


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## Prospector (30 March 2008)

Nope!  Didnt change a thing last night.  I guess my question is why the big city buildings need their lights on after say 10pm any night!  Imagine how much power that would save.

Over the weekend we were told that BHP's mine up North will be require the equivalent of half of all of South Australia's electricity consumption.  And people seriously think turning of their domestic lights will make a difference! 

Well, Adelaide experienced a 3,000 year Heat wave event; the average for the first half of March was 37 degrees, so everyone bleated global warming as this was 10+ degrees above average; the last half of March has averaged 19 degrees - which is about 9 degrees below average; and that the average temperature for March was 'AVERAGE' 

Does that mean that Adelaide is all done with global warming?


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## agro (30 March 2008)

well i switched all lights off except for the tv

i consider tv an essential item that provides me with entertainment


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## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

"Let there be dark" 

well it's a damn sight more meaningful than genesis. 
I mean day 1 "Let there be light"
and day 4 "Let there be the Sun"


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## Julia (30 March 2008)

Brisbane residents interviewed on ABC Radio this morning drove to the top of Mt Cootha (?spelling) to look at all the lights of Brisbane being extinguished.
They couldn't see any change during the entire hour and got caught in traffic jams both ways.

The point has already been made about candles versus lights.
Here's an extract from yesterday's paper from a reader:

"Every standard sized candle, when burnt completely, releases 15 grams of carbon dioxide whether it is beeswax, soy or paraffin-based.  The lady depicted (in a photo) is burning 28 candles, creating more than four times the CO2 supplied by coal power to light one old fashioned 100-watt bulb for an hour."

I wonder if the same people who turned their lights out can say they never go to see - or even participate in - any sort of motor racing?
"Today, 135 cars will be lined up for time trials from 10.30am - 5pm (in Gatton, Qld).  It's a popular day because from 6pm there's three hours of burn outs, smoking doughnuts and, to tthe thrill of those who love this skill, an appearance by the master doughnut spinner, RJ Bruno."
(.... from the Courier Mail 29.3.08)


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> so would they call that man-made GW ? - or woman-made?
> What's that old joke?
> Do you smoke after intercourse?
> Gee, I don't know, - never looked !
> ...



The 10% is believable since Energy Australia is looking at only part of the grid - that which doesn't include major industry etc.

It's like a bus company saying public transport use went up 10% whilst ignoring that there was no change in train, ferry or tram use because they're only counting bus passengers.

Yes if there was a 20% reduction in lighting on an ongoing basis then that would make a difference. Lighting is still only a minority of energy use however and will shrink anyway with the move to more efficient lighting.

It's a bit like saying that cutting lawnmower use will save petrol - it will but not by much since mowers aren't the major use anyway. All helps though but to be honest if we're going to encourage consumers to do less of something then switching off workplace comuputers, flying less and driving smaller cars will achieve a lot more than turning off a light or two.


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> Nope!  Didnt change a thing last night.  I guess my question is why the big city buildings need their lights on after say 10pm any night!  Imagine how much power that would save.
> 
> Over the weekend we were told that BHP's mine up North will be require the equivalent of half of all of South Australia's electricity consumption.  And people seriously think turning of their domestic lights will make a difference!



The media reporting of the BHP mine issue is, to be perfectly honest, outright sensationalism at its worst.

Bottom line is that they are planning an expansion so need more energy to run it. They're NOT going to leave Adelaide in the dark as a result and nor are they "taking half the state's power". Indeed with Kyoto signed it can't possibly add to total emissions anyway - just as Earth Hour can't lower them because they are fixed at a pre-determined level.

Quite simply, BHP wants to buy something (power) so they're talking to potential suppliers about how to supply it. As long as whatever means they use (1) has emissions counted in Australia's total and (2) doesn't break any laws then it's really a matter between two PRIVATELY OWNED companies. It's not like they're asking the taxpayer to spend on their infrastructure - it's private investment and will presumably have to comply with the rules just like all other privately owned industrial facilities.

The BHP mine expansion represents, if pursued properly, the single best opportunity to get a geothermal industry up and running in Australia. A nice big STEADY load within SA - just what's needed to balance the incredibly peaky load that SA has now. It's that peak which makes power so expensive in SA by the way - unlike industry, householders keep switching their big loads on and off and all do it at much the same time which adds massive costs. Hence Qld etc with more industry has far cheaper power.

Environmentally, the worst possible outcome is that BHP doesn't get the power so just ships the ore overseas to China etc for processing. If that happens then the resultant emissions won't be part of any Kyoto cap and thus will add to total CO2 emissions which isn't the case now in Australia.


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## gambier33 (30 March 2008)

I was at a birthday party last night and at 8 pm the lovely host lit a heap of candles and turned the lights off for the "make me feel better hour".  Most of the candles were of the "tea?" candle type that have the wax contained in a small aluminium cup.  

I couldn't help but wonder how much energy had been used in an aluminium smelter somewhere to make that container.  Any idea?  I suspect our carbon footprint was greater than it would have been if we had left the lights on!


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

agro said:


> well i switched all lights off except for the tv
> 
> i consider tv an essential item that provides me with entertainment



You do realise that watching TV in the dark is ergonomically a bad idea? Far too much contrast with a bright small screen against a black background.


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## Prospector (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> Bottom line is that they are planning an expansion so need more energy to run it. They're NOT going to leave Adelaide in the dark as a result and nor are they "taking half the state's power". Indeed with Kyoto signed it can't possibly add to total emissions anyway - just as Earth Hour can't lower them because they are fixed at a pre-determined level.




I didnt actually think they were going to grab all our power and be left in the dark, I guess my point was more that 1 company uses half the power of 2 million domestic users, then really, what we people do domestically just doesnt cut it!

If there is a fixed amount that can be used under the Kyoto protocol, and BHP needs to use it for production, then what exactly, or by whom, must be given back in order for BHP to get the power it needs?

I also read today that Virgin Blue was holding a 3000 strong dinner by candlelight to do their bit last night.  Only problem was, people flew in from all around Australia to attend. Hmm!


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

gambier33 said:


> I couldn't help but wonder how much energy had been used in an aluminium smelter somewhere to make that container.  Any idea?  I suspect our carbon footprint was greater than it would have been if we had left the lights on!



Ever wondered why aluminium smelters are always located where power is cheapest? They are effectively a means of exporting electricity in solid form. Hence smelters in Qld, NSW, Vic, Tas, NZ, South America, Canada etc but none in NT or WA which mine the ore. All run on either hydro or cheap coal.

About 17kWh to make one kilogram of the stuff. And that's just the smelter - turning bauxite into alumina is also very energy intensive.


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## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> (Turning off lights) It's a bit like saying that cutting lawnmower use will save petrol - it will but not by much since mowers aren't the major use anyway.



nice analogy with the mowers. 
It's still better to turn out a candle and curse the darkness - but only just 

Malcomn Turnbull's Compact fluorescents - his only real ontribution here? - incidentally not a word about their mercury content. 

Gee I wish someone would point out the fact that they should not be disposed of in a normal bin! (That goes for Choice Magazine as well). 

http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticl...0008&p=1&title=Compact+fluorescent+lightbulbs

PS Earth Hour is a symbolic thing sure - I doubt that the organisers pretend otherwise.  It's all about getting a mindset implanted into the populus about waste etc.


----------



## Timmy (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> but again nothing really happened in SA.
> 
> And Earth Hour looks to have been a fizzer in SA.




Maybe our fellow Australians in SA are less amenable to lemming-like/bandwagon behaviour than elsewhere.

If EH raises awareness then its a good thing, but really, how hard is it to turn out a light when you leave a room etc.?  Do this for all the other hours, not just one and we can make a difference ...

BTW thank-you Smurf for the solid information.


----------



## Timmy (30 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> I also read today that Virgin Blue was holding a 3000 strong dinner by candlelight to do their bit last night.  Only problem was, people flew in from all around Australia to attend. Hmm!




Is this true?  If so ... what do lemmings eat for dinner, something that doesn't require thought I imagine?


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> I didnt actually think they were going to grab all our power and be left in the dark, I guess my point was more that 1 company uses half the power of 2 million domestic users, then really, what we people do domestically just doesnt cut it!
> 
> If there is a fixed amount that can be used under the Kyoto protocol, and BHP needs to use it for production, then what exactly, or by whom, must be given back in order for BHP to get the power it needs?



Kyoto caps total emissions. So if I buy a tonne of coal and set it on fire in the driveway then that simply means someone else, somewhere else has to pollute less. I haven't added to total emissions.

Same with motorsport, christmas lights or anything else. They're not adding to total emissions since they're going to be a set level anyway. 

It's hard to be specific as to what actually happens to achieve the emissions cap - government is still working that out. But it comes down to limiting the output of some other polluting activity somewhere. So could be more public transport, greater use of renewables etc.

BHP will have to use some renewable energy just like everyone else by the way. It's the law. Only trouble is the previous government set the % rather low but no doubt that will be changed now (given Rudd's support for the issue etc).


----------



## Prospector (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> Kyoto caps total emissions. So if I buy a tonne of coal and set it on fire in the driveway then that simply means someone else, somewhere else has to pollute less. I haven't added to total emissions.
> 
> Same with motorsport, christmas lights or anything else. They're not adding to total emissions since they're going to be a set level anyway.
> 
> ...




Yep, but in our current water situation (where again we only have a small amount of water to divvy up) it is the farmers and domestic users who have had their quotas cut through drastic restrictions, while industry (and that includes coke a cola and beer production, as well as the miners and other industries) have had no restrictions at all.  So once again, it will be the easy targets who shoulder the responsibility.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> Yep, but in our current water situation (where again we only have a small amount of water to divvy up) it is the farmers and domestic users who have had their quotas cut through drastic restrictions, while industry (and that includes coke a cola and beer production, as well as the miners and other industries) have had no restrictions at all.  So once again, it will be the easy targets who shoulder the responsibility.



Can't argue with that.

In the context of energy it is lights, christmas lights, motorsport and so on that are the "easy" targets despite being a minority of energy use.

Smelters and mines are the traditional target in order to minimise the impact on votes.

What really concerns me though is that mainland Australia is now in the situation Tasmania was in 25 years ago - an inability to easily increase energy supply. As was the case in Tas, I fear the result will simply be greater reliance on raw materials production with overseas processing. It gave Tas the "woodchip wonderland" and could easily end with SA etc exporting unprocessed ores.

When you go to lower value production you have to scale it up massively to make the financials work. Look at the forests in Tas if you want to see where that leads.

As for the media and Earth Hour, don't take your math lessons from whoever wrote this.



> Energy authorities say the impact of last night's Earth Hour event was the equivalent of two large power stations being temporarily shut down
> 
> ...We're still finalising the data, but we do believe that there was at least 1,000 megawatts reduction across the national grid




What's wrong with it? Well 1000MW isn't even one _large_ power station and certainly not two. Large is typically taken to mean 2000MW or thereabouts with NSW and Vic both having plants that size or larger (Qld comes close too).


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> ..greater reliance on raw materials production with overseas processing. It gave Tas the "woodchip wonderland" and could easily end with SA etc exporting unprocessed ores.



so 
a) could that be how we are achieving Kyoto targets whether or not we are /were signed up?, and
b) why we complain about China's (emerging) carbon footprint, when they are doing the hard hards of turning mountains of ore into steel for us to import - no mess, no questions asked.   Hey, we've got clean hands here - but those Chinese - such polluters!
c) I guess as long as we export uranium, we are at least letting others turn ore to steel with minimum environmental effect.


----------



## Timmy (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> What's wrong with it? Well 1000MW isn't even one _large_ power station and certainly not two. Large is typically taken to mean 2000MW or thereabouts with NSW and Vic both having plants that size or larger (Qld comes close too).




Thanks for the facts Smurf ... be interesting to measure the hot air coming from the PR machines.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> so
> a) could that be how we are achieving Kyoto targets whether or not we are /were signed up?, and
> b) why we complain about China's (emerging) carbon footprint, when they are doing the hard hards of turning mountains of ore into steel for us to import - no mess, no questions asked.   Hey, we've got clean hands here - but those Chinese - such polluters!
> c) I guess as long as we export uranium, we are at least letting others turn ore to steel with minimum environmental effect.



Basically yes. A lot of offshoring of emissions will go on I'm sure. Kyoto etc really only works if there are no such loopholes - otherwise its effect is that of an _economic_ treaty and not an environmental one.


----------



## Julia (30 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> I also read today that Virgin Blue was holding a 3000 strong dinner by candlelight to do their bit last night.  Only problem was, people flew in from all around Australia to attend. Hmm!




Prospector, they may have had candles on the tables but I doubt they were the only source of lighting.  There has been much publicity about Mr Branson's little party here in Qld and this is the first time I've heard anything about a connection to the dreaded Earth Hour.  No sign of any candles in the report in today's paper, featuring all the beautiful people.

Honestly can't remember now, but I think Mr Branson was here in Oz to shortly announce some new service, probably to L.A.


----------



## Aussiejeff (30 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> Anecdotally, there do seem to be quite a few more people out and about tonight....




Shhhh..... don't let the house-breaking gangs know that these Earth Hours are a felons best friend.... (darker environment, more empty houses - they gotta love that!).

Anyone know whether house break-in crimes peaked last night between 8-9?


AJ


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

Last year Sydney alone 
This year 30 million people in 380 towns worldwide.
that's pretty strong leadership you gotta admit. 

Even google website ... (changed colour lol - yeah right - no question this is symbolic, but that's as it was meant to be) 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/30/2202912.htm?section=justin


> Switch off, save planet message goes global
> Posted 1 hour 7 minutes ago
> 
> People switched off lights around the world on Saturday, dimming buildings, hotels, restaurants and bars to show concern with global warming.
> ...





> Google goes dark
> In a tip of its virtual hat to the event, *the background of Google's home page turned to black from white* on more than a dozen country sites including Google.com. A message on the site read: "We've turned the lights out. Now it's your turn."





> *Organisers of Earth Hour said that while switching off a light for one hour would have little impact on carbon emissions, the fact that so many people were taking part showed how much interest and concern at the climate crisis had taken hold*.


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## Happy (31 March 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> Kyoto caps total emissions. So if I buy a tonne of coal and set it on fire in the driveway then that simply means someone else, somewhere else has to pollute less. I haven't added to total emissions.




I am bit cynical about 1 hour saving planet exercise.
If people litter, throw cigarette butts, do not recycle, why would they want to participate in this exercise?

Again, vocal minority in action would be nice if it caught up, but I doubt very much.

As to capping emissions, I think it will be focused on production side.

You dig up so much coal, there is going to be so much CO2 produced, and it will be taxed accordingly.

Cost will be passed on to consumers and if consumer has any choice, can pick up dearer option but cleaner if is from vocal minority, or cheaper if is from majority.

Tax on pollution producing products will eventually make them unattractive as non-polluting will be cheaper, not necessarily to produce, but to sell.


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## Calliope (26 March 2011)

If everybody in the world participated in tonights Earth hour it would be the equivalent to China stopping carbon emissions for 45 seconds.

If you like to make a symbolic gesture, fair enough, but don't expect it to have any environmental impact

Red more.  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...mmer-by-the-hour/story-e6frg6ux-1226028322610


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## sails (26 March 2011)

Yes, it's ridiculous.  Symbolic only for carbon tax believers.

Lights will be staying on in this house - as much as a protest against carbon tax as anything else.

Grandkids need to learn to question controversial theories being apparently taught as fact in schools.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 March 2011)

sails said:


> Yes, it's ridiculous.  Symbolic only for carbon tax believers.
> 
> Lights will be staying on in this house - as much as a protest against carbon tax as anything else.
> 
> Grandkids need to learn to question controversial theories being apparently taught as fact in schools.




We in Townsville will miss it thanks to daylight saving in NSW.

It's so good to live in a state where a chook knows it's a chook, unlike the population of Balmain and other areas in NSW who imo are all chooks.

I love you Queensland.

gg


----------



## Dowdy (26 March 2011)

There's a facebook group called: * National Carbon Onset Day!!! March 28th *




> On March 28th lets all turn on as many lights as possible!!! Come on everyone, it will be fun! Let's show those bleeding heart liberals that we can make a point too!!
> 
> Let's keep the electrical company's in business and possibly even create some jobs!!!!





Sound like a good idea to me


----------



## Gringotts Bank (26 March 2011)

I don't go for this 'saving' idea at all.  My idea of "Energy Australia" is that you'd use however much you want, whenever you want, powered by the sun, wind and tide.


----------



## trainspotter (26 March 2011)

What a crack up. Do the "do gooders" believe they are actually saving anything with this arm waving hysteria? The electricity company will continue to shove coal and gas into the furnace to boil water to drive a turbine to generate electicity irrespective of them turning off lights.

Now wait a minute ........ What would happen if everyone turned there lights/airconditioning etc all back on at the same time? DOH ! More coal and gas for the furnace to cover the "spike" in energy use.


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## sails (26 March 2011)

trainspotter said:


> ...Now wait a minute ........ What would happen if everyone turned there lights/airconditioning etc all back on at the same time? DOH ! More coal and gas for the furnace to cover the "spike" in energy use.




Do you think the carbon believers would have even thought of those implications?  They would surely just put everything back on with a warm fuzzy feeling that they have done something nice for "earth".  How deluded can some people be?...  Too busy trying to knock Abbott off his perch?

Problem is that this whole carbon tax debacle doesn't appear to be well thought out at all.  Only Flannery has had the decency to let us know that it would take 1,000 years for a carbon tax to make any difference...lol 

If it weren't for the money grab, I might have been more willing to look at it.  But the money grab speaks volumes that this is not about carbon reduction, it's all about the money.


----------



## Prospector (26 March 2011)

Gosh, I haven't posted in over a year but feel compelled to do so on this thread.  I think it is all wank.  There is the Grand Prix in Melbourne this week, and all the carbon emissions that involves even just getting the cars here, then there is the race itself.  We had the Clipsal Race here last week, same deal.  And tonight we have the Crows versus Hawthorn football match under lights.  If we were the least bit serious about cutting down on carbon emissions then none of these events would occur.  But no, we have to have the Copenhagens, the Earth Hours, and then, this stupid carbon tax just so we can pat ourselves on the back and say we care.  Well, we are such arrogant and stupid people to think we can stop climate change because mother nature has been changing the climate for millions of years and she is much better at it than we are.


----------



## sails (26 March 2011)

Prospector said:


> Gosh, I haven't posted in over a year but feel compelled to do so on this thread.  I think it is all wank.  There is the Grand Prix in Melbourne this week, and all the carbon emissions that involves even just getting the cars here, then there is the race itself.  We had the Clipsal Race here last week, same deal.  And tonight we have the Crows versus Hawthorn football match under lights.  If we were the least bit serious about cutting down on carbon emissions then none of these events would occur.  But no, we have to have the Copenhagens, the Earth Hours, and then, this stupid carbon tax just so we can pat ourselves on the back and say we care.  Well, we are such arrogant and stupid people to think we can stop climate change because mother nature has been changing the climate for millions of years and she is much better at it than we are.




Totally agree and good to have you back, Prospector...


----------



## Logique (26 March 2011)

Will I have to unplug all my electrical devices at 9:29pm to avoid a massive power surge as everyone turns on their lights at once? Or is this an urban myth?


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 March 2011)

Logique said:


> Will I have to unplug all my electrical devices at 9:29pm to avoid a massive power surge as everyone turns on their lights at once? Or is this an urban myth?




lol
Stay away from Balmain, as well, they are making a Wicker Man, in which to torch a worker who has not voted for the Greens. 

gg


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## Ageo (27 March 2011)

If your looking for me im the house that looks like a xmas tree..... im calling it "light hour"


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## OzWaveGuy (27 March 2011)

Ageo said:


> If your looking for me im the house that looks like a xmas tree..... im calling it "light hour"




Good idea. I can say that I participated in Light Hour last night.


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## Prospector (27 March 2011)

thankyou Sails.  life intervened over the last few months but hopefully on track now.  I went to the football last night and they kept repeating the message that if the lights go out, then to stay seated and the emergency lights would be activated.  We thought then that the spike at 9.30 when the feel goods turned their lights back on, and the theory it might cause a blackout, might have been taken seriously by the AFL.  In any event, at 9.30 the Crows supercharged and whooped Hawthorn.  Maybe there was some good in it after all! :


----------



## Calliope (27 March 2011)

Prospector said:


> thankyou Sails.  life intervened over the last few months but hopefully on track now.




Welcome back Prospector. Your insight has been missed.


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## medicowallet (27 March 2011)

In a show of defiance, I had all of the external lights on.

I also praised my wife when she happily put both the heater and airconditioner on at the same time.

And the great part is that I got such a sense of satisfaction, because even though it cost me money, I knew that I was not warming the planet, the sun was a couple of hours earlier.

www.solarcycle24.com


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## medicowallet (27 March 2011)

Logique said:


> Will I have to unplug all my electrical devices at 9:29pm to avoid a massive power surge as everyone turns on their lights at once? Or is this an urban myth?




Thanks, you have just inspired a shirt I shall get printed!!!

"medicowallet - protecting the naive from power surges since 2007"

Thanks!


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## Smurf1976 (27 March 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Now wait a minute ........ What would happen if everyone turned there lights/airconditioning etc all back on at the same time? DOH ! More coal and gas for the furnace to cover the "spike" in energy use.



Lights - not too much of an issue since they don't use much power anyway.

Air-conditioning - if everyone switches this on all at once then there is a real possibility of a system black (ie total shutdown of the grid) across Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic and SA. Tas would cope fairly well due to the operating characteristics of hydro turbines, whilst it's a bit questionable what would happen in NT (probably be OK but it's a bit questionable).

That said, if they did it at precisely the same time then the system will go down for sure due to the start up loads of air-conditioners. You'll overload every distribution transformer in the country if people try that.


----------



## Ferret (28 March 2011)

Some disturbing posts here.  

I can understand that people might prefer not to participate in earth hour for various reasons.  They might find it inconvenient.  They might think it pointless because it doesn’t directly reduce resource usage.  They might simply have no personal desire to reduce their resource usage.  Fair enough.  Don’t participate.  

But to go out of your way and turn extra lights on to protest against earth hour?  Why is raising awareness and encouraging people not to be wasteful such a bad thing? Is it so bad that people feel they need to act to stop it?  

This isn’t an attack on personal freedoms.  No one is being forced to change.


----------



## OzWaveGuy (28 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> This isn’t an attack on personal freedoms.  No one is being forced to change.




Oh please, what utter nonsense

Here's some *"non-attacks on personal freedoms"* measured in pallet loads of $50pound notes. I wonder who's paying for this "no loss of personal freedom"


----------



## Ferret (28 March 2011)

OWG,

Utter nonsense?  Did someone knock on your door and say “Sorry, sir.  This is earth hour.  You’re going to have to turn all your lights off.” ?

Your response misses my point entirely.  This isn’t another global warming debate.  It is to encourage people to think a little about whether they are wasting resources.  

Fortunately, most people would prefer to pass on a half decent world to their children.  If you think its so great to thumb your nose at that, live for a while in China and see what happens when no one gives a *@#% about sustainability.


----------



## OzWaveGuy (28 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> OWG,
> 
> Utter nonsense?  Did someone knock on your door and say “Sorry, sir.  This is earth hour.  You’re going to have to turn all your lights off.” ?
> 
> ...




Gee, the only thing you'll be passing on is taxes that lead to nothing but poverty. 

Nobody is knocking on my door cause they're at home with candles staring into a dark corner. Although just prior to that there were: Earth Hr ads all over TV, Ads on the Radio, poster ads, Kids at school were being programmed about dangerous life giving CO2 and earth hr is the token effort to remind them about Green indoctrination. 

Yep, that's it, Earth Hour has nothing to do with the $80B climate change/disruption/warming campaign that's been running for 25+ yrs that's a proven fake. Earth Hour is instead, simply a reminder to not waste stuff. 

How about we don't waste $80B on useless propaganda and invest that into innovation.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> This isn’t an attack on personal freedoms.  No one is being forced to change.



Yet.

I think that many will still have the water restrictions firmly in their mind. You know, the ones that some governments wanted to keep in place even as the dams overflowed for no reason other than to restrict usage for the sake of it.

Government already has a seriously bad track record when it comes to this sort of thing. Sadly, conservation and socialism seem to be joined at the hip. Note the repeated calls to ban cars in various locations, force people to catch trains to work and so on.

And of course government has already banned light bulbs as such. Surely that is the ultimate point being made here - conservation of natural resources YES, centralised control over everything we do NO.

As for the general perception that Earth Hour this year was a failure, whereas it had been a success in previous years, I would suggest that has a lot to do with the general public becoming tired of the whole CO2 issue.


----------



## Julia (28 March 2011)

OzWaveGuy said:


> Gee, the only thing you'll be passing on is taxes that lead to nothing but poverty.
> 
> Nobody is knocking on my door cause they're at home with candles staring into a dark corner. Although just prior to that there were: Earth Hr ads all over TV, Ads on the Radio, poster ads, Kids at school were being programmed about dangerous life giving CO2 and earth hr is the token effort to remind them about Green indoctrination.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more.  Ferret, can you see what OWG is saying here, and the utter irony of the so called earth hour?  It's romantic, sentimental absolute nonsense.




Smurf1976 said:


> And of course government has already banned light bulbs as such. Surely that is the ultimate point being made here - conservation of natural resources YES, centralised control over everything we do NO.



Agree.   The majority of the population are not awake to the level governments are attempting to interfere with our autonomy.  When they finally wake up it will be too late.



> As for the general perception that Earth Hour this year was a failure, whereas it had been a success in previous years, I would suggest that has a lot to do with the general public becoming tired of the whole CO2 issue.




I sincerely hope you are right in this.


----------



## Ferret (29 March 2011)

No, I don't agree at all.  If you don't agree with earth hour, don't participate.

But turning all your lights on during earth hour is the sort of selfish behaviour you see from little children.  

The message that sends is "I don't give a damn about my world.  I'm going to live it up now and I don't care what the world's like after I'm gone".


----------



## IFocus (29 March 2011)

Extraordinary thread and replies, interesting behavior people not even thinking about saving energy or the future implications I guess it would be the same as having 1 hour free of whinging on ASF..............impossible.

Sounds so much like the yanks lets just burn it all good one guys.


----------



## OzWaveGuy (29 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> The message that sends is "I don't give a damn about my world.  I'm going to live it up now and I don't care what the world's like after I'm gone".




That's it,  live by candles now so that those living in a 1000yrs can thank you for the unmeasurable *0.00005 Deg C* difference in world temperature. 

*according to* Flannery, the world won’t be safer until your grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren are on the scene.

Of course this assumes that Government actually invests in the right technology and manages the wealth of new taxes and not throw money to the wind as currently demonstrated.

Utter nonsense lapped up by gullible "we have to be seen to do something but not achieve anything" crowd.


----------



## Ferret (29 March 2011)

OWG,

You are so fixated on global warming that you can’t see this is about raising awareness so that people try to avoid resource waste.  

Hey, but we’re ok.  Australia is a rich country.  We can afford to use what we want.  I’ll just jump in the 4WD and head to the supermarket for a case of bottled water shipped half way around the world.


----------



## medicowallet (29 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> OWG,
> 
> You are so fixated on global warming that you can’t see this is about raising awareness so that people try to avoid resource waste.
> 
> Hey, but we’re ok.  Australia is a rich country.  We can afford to use what we want.  I’ll just jump in the 4WD and head to the supermarket for a case of bottled water shipped half way around the world.




We all know it is not about resource waste, it is about AGW propaganda, please don't take us all for fools.

Will you happily pay my tax if I personally decrease my carbon footprint to pre-2000 levels?

Because even if I do, I still have to pay a tax for no reason whatsoever. Can you not see the stupidity?

Why has carbon dioxide gone up 5% since 1998 and temperature stayed the same?
What is happening with the sun?

Please people, open up your inquisitive minds and stop taking the extremely well remunerated IPCC scientists word as gospel. Without global warming (read climate change), they would be on $30k looking at graphs on a pentium 3, as opposed to travelling to conferences around the world, staying in top class hotels, and hobnobbing with fellow "believers". I wonder if there is any incentive to make a position in the face of having no evidence that humans are causing dangerous global warming.


----------



## sails (29 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> No, I don't agree at all.  If you don't agree with earth hour, don't participate.
> 
> But turning all your lights on during earth hour is the sort of selfish behaviour you see from little children.
> 
> The message that sends is "I don't give a damn about my world.  I'm going to live it up now and I don't care what the world's like after I'm gone".




Ferret, I didn't turn on any more lights than we normally use, but do want the grandchildren to learn to question things.  Kids that question nothing are prime targets for cults, drugs and other bizarre groups.  

 I want them to know that scientists are not agreed on this issue and as I understand it, even Flannery himself states that if the entire world reduces some carbon, it might make a little difference in 1,000 years.  Don't you think that kids should be told when things are controversial and especially, if Flannery is right, that anything we do to reduce carbon is probably futile in the bigger scheme of things?  There is enough fessing up to do just with Santa Claus, tooth fairy and easter bunny...lol

Reduction of carbon is far more about a wealth distribution tax to win the next election, IMO, and has almost nothing to do with carbon.  It is exactly the "feel good" about looking after earth that Ms Gillard is counting on to get her tax in place and then use those funds to placate many who will then go on to vote for her because they are better off.  That is, until she likely breaks that promise too.

I honestly believe that our kids are being brainwashed at an early age.  It might explain Ms Gillards interest in education as our kids are future voters and, hopefully, explains my reasoning for not participating in the "feel good" of earth hour.

I am all for teaching kids to respect and care for their environments, homes and those that live around them.  But when carbon reduction will do such a futile amount to care for earth, I do believe they should know the truth.


----------



## Calliope (29 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> Hey, but we’re ok.  Australia is a rich country.  We can afford to use what we want.  I’ll just jump in the 4WD and head to the supermarket for a case of bottled water shipped half way around the world.




A slab of imported Heinekin would be better.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 March 2011)

Ferret said:


> No, I don't agree at all.  If you don't agree with earth hour, don't participate.
> 
> But turning all your lights on during earth hour is the sort of selfish behaviour you see from little children.
> 
> The message that sends is "I don't give a damn about my world.  I'm going to live it up now and I don't care what the world's like after I'm gone".



Agreed about turning all the lights on.

Anyway, I note that my pet mice are still coping quite satisfactorily with resource constraints. Food supply is one full bowl per day and there's only so much space in the maze where they prefer to sleep (they've got a proper mouse house but don't seem to like sleeping in it, probably because the maze is warmer).

Now, if a few mice can work out the basics of resource availability and make a decision not to keep breeding in response to that, then you'd think that humans would be able to understand the same logic. It seems not - we're still collectively obsessed with the notion that constant growth is somehow going to work on a finite planet.


----------



## sails (29 March 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> ...Now, if a few mice can work out the basics of resource availability and make a decision not to keep breeding in response to that, then you'd think that humans would be able to understand the same logic. It seems not - we're still collectively obsessed with the notion that constant growth is somehow going to work on a finite planet.




Sounds like an interesting experiment, Smurf, but then the mice are not paid to have babies...lol

If this is the problem, then surely the baby bonus should be stopped instead of inflicting carbon tax if less humans means less carbon.  I have heard it said that that some of the boat arrivals breed like rabbits once they get here and they get paid to do so, and if this is so, stopping the baby bonus would surely do much more than the carbon tax in addressing a controversial problem.

Ahh, but if the baby bonus is cut, then the lower income/welfare people might not vote for labor.  However,  they are more likely to do so if they get generous handouts from the "big polluters".  So, again, it confirms in my own mind that carbon tax is not actually about carbon reduction, it is more likely a wealth distribution scheme for the purpose of getting votes for the next election...


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## OzWaveGuy (30 March 2011)

*Population Explosion?*

Like in the early 70's, the population debate has once again thrived and is evident in the MSM in Australia.

I hear words like population "explosion" and "sustainable development". I don't know how these terms are defined throughout the various reporting mechanisms as they are used in differing contexts so it's easy to get swept away in the headlines. Like anything, ask yourself -what are the facts?

Has anyone really looked at the growth rates around the world? They are in decline.

Australia and the UK have an increasing growth rates most likely due to the immigration policies,  China has been discussing lifting their 1 child policy in order to lift their growth rate from near zero.

Here's the query I used for the graph below:  link





I suggest when discussing Population growth ask yourself: what is the context? over what period? in which country? and what are the current immigration polices of those countries.

In Australia (ABS has the exact numbers), we have roughly 350k+ immigrants enter Australia each year.


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## IFocus (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



OzWaveGuy said:


> Like in the early 70's, the population debate has once again thrived and is evident in the MSM in Australia.
> 
> I hear words like population "explosion" and "sustainable development". I don't know how these terms are defined throughout the various reporting mechanisms as they are used in differing contexts so it's easy to get swept away in the headlines. Like anything, ask yourself -what are the facts?
> 
> ...





Link that to rising resource / energy usage then multiply by a guesstimate about how many more consumers will come on line to live like us happily bragging about leaving  all the lights on then you a context.


We are screwed.


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## wayneL (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



IFocus said:


> We are screwed.




Eat, drink, be merry, for tomorrow we die.


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## OzWaveGuy (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



OzWaveGuy said:


> Like in the early 70's, the population debate has once again thrived and is evident in the MSM in Australia.




I should have also added this to the bottom of my original post:

"In addition, the hysteria evident in the 21st century also resembles the same hysteria from 40 yrs ago: food production, climate change (cooling), fuel shortages, air pollution that would block out the sun to name but a few. 

The difference today is the ability of the internet and msm to propagate hysterics rapidly and with relative ease. Communication technologies also provide the ability to change from one class of hysteria to another or run several in parallel in order to drive social change and acceptance.

This strategy of imaginary fears will guarantee an ideological following that becomes psychologically "trapped" for extended periods of time where facts or alternative views have little hope of influence. This repeat of the 70's hysterics is occurring in plain sight today and will continue until this depressive social mood cycle comes to an end or a new greater class of hysterics is adopted."​


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## OzWaveGuy (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



wayneL said:


> Eat, drink, be merry, for tomorrow we die.




Yep


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## sails (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



OzWaveGuy said:


> ...The difference today is the ability of the internet and msm to propagate hysterics rapidly and with relative ease. Communication technologies also provide the ability to change from one class of hysteria to another or run several in parallel in order to drive social change and acceptance...




The internet also allows for others to challenge those hysterical views - but I suppose that is why the alp would like to censor the internet.


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## Wysiwyg (30 March 2011)

*Re: Population Explosion?*



OzWaveGuy said:


> Has anyone really looked at the growth rates around the world? They are in decline.



From these figures for India we can see that there has indeed been a declining annual population growth rate in recent years. Nevertheless the population had increased from 369,880,000 in year 1950 to 1,155,830,000 in year 2010. *Population had* *multiplied more than three times in 60 years* and an example of compounding population growth. Note the projection for lower growth rate toward 2050.


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