# Education



## Glen48 (15 March 2012)

I was read about education and I don't  know about ewe's but my worst 3 yr at skool were trying to pass grade 1 English.
I wonder how make could pass a school exam now  how much we have been taught and how much forgotten, is an education worth the time and money.
The article I read suggest kids would be better of doing time in a business not as child labour but to get an idea how a shops/car yard etc runs the mechanics of the whole thing as well as some schooling.  
 To day we are lucky you can look up Youtube and build a house or change spark plug true we didn't know PC would be around 40 yrs ago but any one can get an grounding on any subject or solve any problem even how to work out  pumpkin PI.

 Most kids have learnt more by the time they are teen than any time inn history via the net/ TV /Youtube/ Movies/ DVD etc. 

My own experience has been I have learnt more since leaving school and wonder if it was worth while doing time.

How may were trained in one field and now doing some thing completely different now.


----------



## tech/a (15 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> I was read about education and I don't  know about ewe's but my worst 3 yr at skool were trying to pass grade 1 English.
> I wonder how make could pass a school exam now  how much we have been taught and how much forgotten, is an education worth the time and money.
> The article I read suggest kids would be better of doing time in a business not as child labour but to get an idea how a shops/car yard etc runs the mechanics of the whole thing as well as some schooling.
> To day we are lucky you can look up Youtube and build a house or change spark plug true we didn't know PC would be around 40 yrs ago but any one can get an grounding on any subject or solve any problem even how to work out  pumpkin PI.
> ...




Few will get a start without an education to a level of reading and simple mathematics.
With so much competition for jobs out there most employers I know including myself look for more than simply education.
Stability/life experience/reliability/desire/ambition/passion.
These qualities ---- after education tip the scales.

But without step one you won't get to step two.
The further you go and the better you perform--- I have found--- the more you'll find of the other qualities.

*It seems if you can commit to your education then it's highly likely you'll commit to your chosen field.*


----------



## dutchie (15 March 2012)

Its true that you can learn a lot with life experiences other than attending school.
The internet is a fantastic resource for self education (I used it to teach myself trading, like most others I will assume).

However the two most important subjects of reading (and writing) and mathematics are the basis of any education. These subject skills need to be gained at school as most parents are unable to do educate their children and the internet does not adequately cover them (at present).


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2018)




----------



## Tisme (9 June 2018)

https://quillette.com/2018/06/03/bryan-caplans-case-education-review/

*"Bryan Caplan’s ‘The Case Against Education’ — A Review"*


----------



## Tink (15 June 2018)

*A World Split Apart — Commencement Address Delivered At Harvard University, June 8, 1978*

Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/SolzhenitsynHarvard.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn


----------



## Tisme (27 August 2018)

Tete a tete


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2018)

dutchie said:


> Its true that you can learn a lot with life experiences other than attending school.
> The internet is a fantastic resource for self education (I used it to teach myself trading, like most others I will assume).
> 
> However the two most important subjects of reading (and writing) and mathematics are the basis of any education. These subject skills need to be gained at school as most parents are unable to do educate their children and the internet does not adequately cover them (at present).



Yes go to the supermarket, when there is a power failure, it is "old" workers please man the checkouts.
The younger generation appear to lack mental arithmetic skills, I'm not sure if it is lack of teaching it, or just being used to electronic aids.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2019)

Well the kids apparently are sliding on the academic stage, so we might as well work on their fitness levels.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...protest-climate-inaction-20190315-p514f1.html


----------



## basilio (22 April 2019)

Read and weep. 
Just appalling. 

* Our schools are beyond breaking point – where is the outrage? *
John Harris
Bone-headed reforms and deep cuts have left our education system is a scandalous state of disrepair
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2019)

OMG at last the penny drops, first it was make kids stay at school until 17, then get them all to go to Uni whether they had the ability or not, now the experts are saying maybe kids should be doing a trade.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-12/university-vs-tafe-what-will-lead-to-a-higher-income/11399662

Yes and maybe they should start at 15, not 17 when they already know everything.
Also while we are at it, maybe they should learn their times tables, rather than how to march down George Street.
That would be novel.


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2019)

I hope there are some people, who care about our falling education standards.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...an-on-tests-for-children-under-eight/11405900


----------



## sptrawler (14 August 2019)

At last, they are going to ban some calculators from exams, to ensure the student can actually do some formulae manually.
Well I suppose they are testing for mathematical aptitude, not data entry ability.

https://www.smh.com.au/education/hs...sw-students-teachers-say-20190813-p52gmt.html


----------



## sptrawler (14 August 2019)

Uni's are changing from deterring cheating, to detecting cheating, guess what they are finding heaps. Who would have thought.

https://www.smh.com.au/education/ch...w-detection-methods-used-20190814-p52gz4.html


----------



## basilio (14 September 2019)

I think most forum members would know of John Marsden.  He is a well known children's author.

John however also runs his own school.  He takes the view that children aren't helpless and should be allowed to get dirty, hurt their knees, work with knives, light fires...

Check out this entry.

*Are you sure we are the right school for you?*

We encourage an active engagement with the world. That includes using public transport to explore Melbourne, playing in the school’s extensive gardens and 1100 acres of bush, riding bikes, climbing trees, going on many camps and trips.
We’ll be direct, honest, thorough and responsible in communicating information to students about sex and relationships, appropriate to the students’ age and developmental stages.
We encourage students to use toasters, stoves, blenders, microwaves, cutlery.
According to our assessment of students’ maturity and abilities, we may teach them to use axes, log splitters, saws and other tools.
Similarly, we may teach students how to light fires, and may expect them to start and maintain fires in fireplaces, and fuel stoves in classrooms.
We comfort students who are upset, we hug, we’re tactile. We may play rambunctious roughhousing games like British Bulldog or Capture the Flag.
During maintenance activities students may be up ladders, changing light globes, using hammers, vacuum cleaners and electrical tools.
We assess children who want to come here, but previous academic success or failure is not a factor in that assessment. Destructive and/or self-destructive behaviour is a factor. We’re very pleased to see evidence of creative interests, selflessness and empathy in students who apply for places.
We don’t provide written reports on students at the end of every term, semester or year. But we are always happy to supply such reports on request, or to meet with parents and children to discuss progress.
We are very happy for parents to be involved in the day-to-day life of the school, in all kinds of rich, exciting and rewarding ways. However we are not happy with parents who want to impose their own agendas on the school, and we don’t tolerate parents who attempt to bully the school, teachers, or other students.

Please recognise that we will not suit everybody. If you are not comfortable with the items on this list, we will not be the right school for you.

Of course as teachers it is up to us to raise students to a level where they can engage in the activities mentioned above in a safe and mature way. That is what a teacher does. That’s what the word teacher means. “Aim not where they are, but where they should be.”
http://www.candlebark.info/educational-approach/are-you-sure-we-are-the-right-school-for-you
https://www.theguardian.com/society...pandemic-ive-never-seen-this-level-of-anxiety


----------



## sptrawler (15 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I hope there are some people, who care about our falling education standards.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...an-on-tests-for-children-under-eight/11405900




Well it looks as though the penny has dropped regarding Universities, they actually may be going back to quality rather than quantity, you never know working from the top down might take education back to something useful rather than a child minding facility.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...oveted-university-status-20191015-p530sh.html


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Well it looks as though the penny has dropped regarding Universities, they actually may be going back to quality rather than quantity, you never know working from the top down might take education back to something useful rather than a child minding facility.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...oveted-university-status-20191015-p530sh.html




About time.


----------



## sptrawler (24 October 2019)

OMG talk about admitting a complete failure in a system. IMO

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...dents-in-years-11-and-12-20191023-p533ma.html

From the article:
_Maths experts applauded the move but said schools faced a dire shortage of specialist teachers and warned that years of careful teacher recruitment and training was needed to turn the promise into reality_.

It is about time the system was rewound back to teacher training colleges, where a persons ability to teach, was just as important as being able to pass a course. Our education system is an absolute shambles IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (24 October 2019)

Another indication of a failing system.IMO

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ria-s-brightest-students-20191024-p533pe.html

From the article:
_Thousands of Victoria’s brightest students will be enrolled in accelerated programs as part of a new multimillion-dollar package to help high-achieving children engage and excel.

Almost 50,000 pupils from grades 5 to 8 will be signed up to intensive online and face-to-face lessons, under the $60 million Student Excellence Program announced on Thursday, with a teacher at every government school to be trained to run the classes_.

Maybe they will return to teaching them maths.


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2019)

At last progress, a step in the right direction IMO.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...-primary-school-teachers-20191024-p5340q.html

Just throwing more money at a failing system was the height of stupidity.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2019)

I read in the paper, that the violence and bullying among the young, has been brought about by the lack of respect for authority.
Well what an enlightening statement, amazing it has taken them so long to work it out.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2019)

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...dents-need-a-bigger-push-20191210-p53iow.html
From the article:
For the first time, Australia failed to exceed the OECD average in maths, and the nation's results in reading and science has declined since Programme for International Student Assessment testing began in the early 2000s.


----------



## sptrawler (15 January 2020)

I just saw first hand an example of how bad our education system is, Aldi were selling books today on how to teach your children math's and english, people were queuing up to buy them. 
I suppose you don't want children too bright, then they might not want to take days off, to attend protest rallies.


----------



## macca (15 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just saw first hand an example of how bad our education system is, Aldi were selling books today on how to teach your children math's and english, people were queuing up to buy them.
> I suppose you don't want children too bright, then they might not want to take days off, to attend protest rallies.




It is sad that people think it is necessary to buy their own but good that the parents are interested in the kids progress at school and are prepared to get involved in making it happen


----------



## BlindSquirrel (5 February 2020)

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...port-struggling-students-20200203-p53xf4.html
"State School Teachers’ Union of WA senior vice-president Paul Bridge said as teachers used their own money for basic items such as paper and pencils, at the same time private schools built performing arts centres and swimming pools using taxpayer funds.

Mr Bridge said the solution came down to needs-based funding for public schools.

“Instead we have a federal government which throws money at private schools using out-and-out rorts such as dedicated infrastructure funds for private schools that state schools cannot access,” he said."

Obviously a partisan comment from a left-wing source but there is something wrong here. 

Instead of paying through the nose for private education for our kid-squirrels we're supplementing their knowledge with home learning along with their mixing with the local underprivileged ones at the local primary school. Unfortunately that school seems more interested in not leaving the dullards behind than pushing the capable ones higher.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 February 2020)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Unfortunately that school seems more interested in not leaving the dullards behind than pushing the capable ones higher.




That's most of the problem I think. The "everyone gets a prize attitude".

STEM has most likely been deprecated because it's just too hard  in favour of climate change and Indigenous history .


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

Is there any wonder private schools are doing well, and KME education centres are full steam ahead, in those places they can probably get rid of teachers that can't teach.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/tea...heir-degrees-report-says-20200219-p542cq.html
From the article:
_One in two aspiring teachers are failing to finish their degree within six years, and the number of students accepted into education courses with ATARs lower than 50 has grown fivefold over the past decade.

Yet many of those studying teaching are of an "unknown academic standard" because they are not using an ATAR or past study results to enter the degree, a report by Sydney University academic Rachel Wilson has found_.

Probably the best statement in the whole article IMO was:
"_Performance in the first year of university is a much better indicator of successful completion than ATAR or school results," she said. "I agree that academic performance is important for teachers, but how we measure that performance is also important_."

All they have done in the last 10 years is throw more and more money at it, well they need to sort the problem and money isn't it. IMO
Ejecting those that aren't suitable, from the course, would be a good start, this everyone's a winner mentality is going to wreck Australia.
All that will happen if it continues as is will be, more will send their children to private schools and private tuition.
The reason we have so many crap teachers, is because we make the kids go to school until they are in their 20's, then they realise maybe I need to lower my expectations and then try and find a job.
If as a while back, some left at 15 years old to do trades, some left at 17 years old to do semi professional jobs and then the best went to Uni, we wouldn't need half the teachers we have now.
Bring back TAFE, training hospitals and apprenticeships, stop this nonsense that everyone and their dog has to go to Uni. Just admit it is a big stuff up and go back to the future.
My rant for the week.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Bring back TAFE, training hospitals and apprenticeships, stop this nonsense that everyone and their dog has to go to Uni. Just admit it is a big stuff up and go back to the future.




Agreed.

We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn. 

I think people who want to teach maths and science should have degrees in those subjects. And I think we should have specialist high schools for teaching STEM subjects. That would be good for teachers because they know that the kids there want to learn STEM and good for the students because they will know that the teachers know what they are talking about.

The "classic" high schools would teach history, arts, economics, geography etc for those who want to go in that direction.


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed.
> 
> We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn.
> 
> ...



They can't seem to accept that not everyone is academically inclined, interested or gifted, to make the kids continue on and on while still underachieving just demotivates them and makes them angry.
The theory behind keeping kids at school and making them do minimum year 12, was to prepare them for the 'jobs' of the future, well guess what the future is here but the technical jobs en masse didn't arrive.
The problem is brickies, sparkies, welders, scaffolders, T.A's, mechanical fitters, diesel fitters, plumbers, check out people, storemen, P.A's etc are still needed and guess what year 12 doesn't help them, just shows them they wasted 2 years of their lives.
Best thing I ever did was remove my then 15 year old daughter from school, then pay for her to go through a business training college, she left there and became a legal secretary, then para legal secretary, then P.A to a barrister and office manager.
With her school grades she would have continued as a c-d student.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> They can't seem to accept that not everyone is academically inclined, interested or gifted, to make the kids continue on and on while still underachieving just demotivates them and makes them angry.
> The theory behind keeping kids at school and making them do minimum year 12, was to prepare them for the 'jobs' of the future, well guess what the future is here but the technical jobs en masse didn't arrive.
> The problem is brickies, sparkies, welders, scaffolders, T.A's, mechanical fitters, diesel fitters, plumbers, check out people, storemen, P.A's etc are still needed and guess what year 12 doesn't help them, just shows them they wasted 2 years of their lives.




Why train our own kids when we can just import tradies from O/S ?

FFS tradies get paid more than uni graduates in some cases, give our kids a chance to earn some big money.


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Why train our own kids when we can just import tradies from O/S ?
> 
> FFS tradies get paid more than uni graduates in some cases, give our kids a chance to earn some big money.



Just another example of politicians social engineering, getting it wrong and wanting to throw money at it, rather than admit it and bl@@dy fixing it.
Dumb $hit IMO.
If we went back to the old way, we would need half the teachers, therefore we would probably end up with those who actually want to be teachers.


----------



## macca (20 February 2020)

I agree with the latest posts but imagine the dramas with the Teachers Unions, the changes made since the unions started deciding the curriculum in NSW have all headed in the wrong direction.

Funny, the direction change occurred much the same time as new habit of advertising during the election campaigns.

We are friends with four ex-teachers, all over 55 years, all took early retirement, all say the same thing, we are teachers not brain washers.

One lady was attacked by a 10 year old boy with a ruler, she held his arms to protect herself while the class captain rushed next door to get another teacher. Between them they managed to hold him until the class captain got the headmaster.

Our friend got suspended, the helper got a severe reprimand.

The kids parents demanded she be sacked, she took early retirement because she was too stressed to continue working, 30 years experience, commendations, years of being favourite teacher, presents at year end, letters of appreciation for her care, all meant nothing

The kids and the unions are running the schools in NSW, the government has very little say.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2020)

macca said:


> I agree with the latest posts but imagine the dramas with the Teachers Unions, the changes made since the unions started deciding the curriculum in NSW have all headed in the wrong direction.
> 
> Funny, the direction change occurred much the same time as new habit of advertising during the election campaigns.
> 
> ...




Was that at a public or private school ?


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Was that at a public or private school ?



Well Rumpy, my FIL was a headmaster (rest his soul) and a very good teacher, he took early retirement, because he couldn't stop the teachers union making his job impossible.
He went to the school at 7.30am and came home from the school at 5.00PM. He expected teachers at the school at 8.00 am and to leave at 4,00 pm, that wasn't acceptable, in the end nothing was acceptable.
He became a dinosaur, teaching became about a job with 12 weeks holidays a year, but there was a pay ceiling because it wasn't a university degree.
Well that was fixed, then the problem became, why do we have to do stuff in our time?
So student free days came in, so now it became a 13 week holiday job, why wouldn't you want some of that?
Well because it is a pain in the butt, unless you have a natural bent toward teaching, but that isn't part of the competency requirements.
So we end up with a system full of teachers, wanting the holidays and work times(9-3), but not wanting the pain of students.
Also because students have to stay at school to year 12, you have a lot of students who don't want to be there, all in all it is a pretty screwed up system that wont be fixed by throwing more money at it. IMO
From my observations, primary school has become a babysitting facility for teachers, waiting out their time untill the next school holiday.
Sad maybe, but when I find my grandson doesn't know his times tables, or have any understanding of basic addition or subtraction going into grade 4, I think I have every right to be pizzed.
In 4 weeks the wife has done wonders.
The whole system needs a reset.


----------



## qldfrog (21 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed.
> 
> We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn.
> 
> ...



Qld has the academies:
My son went thru:
https://qa.eq.edu.au/
Prime public education, in our case for STEM.
You have also academic achievers streams in other public schools
Kelvin Grove for example where you can get some uni units in y10..says it all about uni....
Hope it helps
But some primary teachers did some damages....in term of motivation, tall poppies cutting, sexism, the usual...
Some were very good too and pointed us to that selective escape.
But 1 good and 1 bad does not do one average sadly.
I pity the good teachers to be honest


----------



## macca (21 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Was that at a public or private school ?




It was at a NSW public school.

The sad part is that so many good people who choose to be teachers, are drowning in a flood of PC and propaganda.

They simply do not get the opportunity to actually "teach" as we older students would know it


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2020)

macca said:


> It was at a NSW public school.
> 
> The sad part is that so many good people who choose to be teachers, are drowning in a flood of PC and propaganda.
> 
> They simply do not get the opportunity to actually "teach" as we older students would know it




Yes, I'm afraid the combination of Left Wing unions and Right Wing governments have trashed the education system.


----------



## IFocus (21 February 2020)

My son trained as a high school teacher (he is a caring type of person really smart guy) did not pursue a career after completing his prac at a public schools WA and NSW, said the kids were rabid and he was powerless it was a system thing nothing to do with unions.  

All under Liberal federal and state governments.

He now manages a private company and I sleep at night


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> My son trained as a high school teacher (he is a caring type of person really smart guy) did not pursue a career after completing his prac at a public schools WA and NSW, said the kids were rabid and he was powerless it was a system thing nothing to do with unions.
> 
> All under Liberal federal and state governments.
> 
> He now manages a private company and I sleep at night



IMO it started when Labor made year 12 just about mandatory, also in W.A a lot can be laid at Carmen's feet, teachers union to State politics, to Premier, to Federal.
It has been in freefall since teaching became a degree, which was done to push their pay up and IMO pushed the standard down.
Similar to what competency standards have done to the trades, now that was the Liberals, they are all useless.


----------



## Tink (24 February 2020)

Parents deserve the right to choose which school best meets the needs of their children, writes Hannah Pandel.

The war over school choice has been reignited and once again, opponents of market-based education reforms entirely miss the point.

A national study released in April this year analysed the cognitive outcomes of 4,000 Australian primary-school children at government and non-government schools. Th e study, entitled ‘Does School Type Affect Cognitive and Non-Cognitive Development in Children?’ declared that ‘sending children to Catholic or other independent primary schools has no signifi cant effect on their cognitive and non-cognitive outcome’.

These results have been met with the inevitable response from critics of non-government schools, who have taken the opportunity to denounce school choice, and call for increased funding for government schools. This is easy to refute. If any point is to be taken from this study regarding funding, it is that school choice has not destroyed government schools; rather, they have been able to achieve results comparable to those of non-government schools with less funding. Competition works. But why let the truth get in the way of a good cash-grab opportunity?

While calling for increased funding for government schools, Save Our Schools spokesman Trevor Cobbold went so far as to say that, ‘If you think you are getting some advantage in education outcomes from sending your child to a private school rather than a government school, think again’.

Cobbold’s response is typical of people who wilfully ignore the myriad of reasons that more and more Australian parents have when choosing to enrol their children in nongovernment schools.

Yes, academic outcomes are a priority for parents when it comes to selecting a school for their children. But it is not the only factor. This is the conclusion of a 2013 study by the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, ‘More Than Scores: An Analysis of Why and How Parents Choose Private Schools’. It found that academic results did not even factor in the top ten reasons parents choose non-government schools.

Earlier research goes further. A study published in 1997 by David Figlio and Joe Stone entitled ‘School Choice and Student Performance: Are Private Schools Really Better?’ found that parents may still choose to send their child to a non-government school even if there are no academic advantages.

As Figlio and Stone found, parents were flocking to the non-government school sector because they tended to provide their students with a more disciplined environment, a religious education, or a greater opportunity to participate in extracurricular sports.

This is precisely because parents think about much more than just academic achievement when choosing a school. The Australian literature also overwhelmingly supports this. ‘Factors Affecting School Choice’, a report from the Independent Schools Council of Australia, found that the most important reasons as to why parents chose to send their child to nongovernment schools were the good facilities, good teachers, and the supportive and caring environment.

And a study by the Australian Council for Educational Research found that the most common factor influencing parents when choosing whether to send their child to a government or non-government school was ‘the extent to which the school embraced traditional values to do with discipline, religious or moral values, the traditions of the school itself, and the requirement that a uniform be worn’.

Again, academic achievement did not feature as the most significant factor. This is in recognition of the fact that it is no longer acceptable for schools to only equip their students with knowledge and skills.

Our world is highly competitive, fast-paced and constantly changing. To provide stability, parents are turning to schools they believe will give their children the best opportunity to succeed while promoting traditional values in a supportive and disciplined environment.

    IT IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE FOR SCHOOLS TO ONLY EQUIP THEIR STUDENTS WITH KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS. WE DEMAND MORE

School choice comes down to one simple thing: parents want to be able to choose a school that best matches the needs of their child and their own values. This may mean they choose a single-sex school, on the basis that they believe the educational and social outcomes will be greater for their child in that environment. They may prefer a school espousing religious values that mirror their own, as opposed to a secular one, a feature of all Australian government schools. They may select a special school for their disabled child because they feel that school can better cater for their specific needs.

And they may choose to send their child to the same school that they attended, their parents attended, and their grandparents attended purely on the basis that family and tradition is important to them above all else.

It is unacceptable for any organisation or government to decide that none of these reasons are acceptable. It is the right of the parent—informed by their own values and their own priorities—to make the decisions they believe are best for their children. Even the UN recognises this, and have enshrined it in Article Thirteen of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which commits all signatories, of which Australia is one, ‘to have respect for the liberty of parents … to choose for their children schools, other than those established by public authorities … to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions’.

Education is more than academia. If that were not the case, the controversy surrounding the ideological nature of the National Curriculum would not exist. All aspects of the education system whether they be the subjects enshrined in the National Curriculum, the principles upheld by the schools, or the textbooks used in the classroom—are value-laden. It is for this reason that parents must have the definitive power to choose what these values are (at least to the best of their abilities), as they will ultimately influence their children’s future values and decisions.

A major strength of nongovernment schools is that they are directly accountable to parental values. If they stray from the ideas important to their community, parents will inevitably withdraw their children and search for a more suitable alternative.

School choice empowers parents to control their child’s education and the values they are being taught in schools. The fact that we have an education system which gives parents the power to choose what is best for their children is something to be celebrated, not lamented.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2020)

Tink said:


> As Figlio and Stone found, parents were flocking to the non-government school sector because they tended to provide their students with a more disciplined environment, a religious education, or a greater opportunity to participate in extracurricular sports.




Really, they just want their kids away from the riff-raff.


----------



## Tink (24 February 2020)

I have always said, I agree with choice.

Private and public.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2020)

Tink said:


> I have always said, I agree with choice.
> 
> Private and public.




Absolutely, separate systems, separately funded.

You want private schools, get private funding.


----------



## Tink (27 February 2020)

The *Western canon* is the body of high culture literature, music, philosophy, and works of art that is highly valued in the West: works that have achieved the status of classics. However, not all these works originate in the Western world, and such works are also valued throughout the world. It is "a certain Western intellectual tradition that goes from, say, Socrates to Wittgenstein in philosophy, and from Homer to James Joyce in literature".[2] The word canon is derived from ancient Greek _κανών, kanṓn_, meaning a measuring rod, or standard. The Bible, a product of ancient Jewish culture, from the Levant, in Western Asia, has been a major force in shaping Western culture, and "has inspired some of the great monuments of human thought, literature, and art".[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_canon


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2020)

Teachers are not to blame for falling educational standards ! It's inequity !

I reckon this is a "look over there" article. Teachers play their part in the education system, a big part. So do syllabuses and funding. Everyone is blaming everyone else on this issue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...-problem-australia-schooling-funding/12034350


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Teachers are not to blame for falling educational standards ! It's inequity !
> 
> I reckon this is a "look over there" article. Teachers play their part in the education system, a big part. So do syllabuses and funding. Everyone is blaming everyone else on this issue.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...-problem-australia-schooling-funding/12034350



No body is actually doing anything about any of it, as you say it just disolves into white noise and finger pointing.
Well the improvement in the grandson, in two months is unbelievable, now he knows his times tables.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> No body is actually doing anything about any of it, as you say it just disolves into white noise and finger pointing.
> Well the improvement in the grandson, in two months is unbelievable, now he knows his times tables.




Can't believe they don't teach times tables in schools. (Of course I believe you when you say it).

Maybe calculators and computers have made them passe ?


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> .
> 
> Maybe calculators and computers have made them passe ?



The problem with that is they have no underlying understanding of what they are doing, or what to expect as an outcome, when putting the numbers into a calculator.
Thought I would google it and see if it is just the grandson, or if is the way things are done now. It seems other people have complained.
https://thewest.com.au/opinion/letters/get-back-to-teaching-times-tables-ng-b88322555z


----------



## macca (9 March 2020)

If we used to be among the best world standards then we should simply return to the way we used to do it

Strictly reading writing and arithmetic with 10% of social stuff until they get to year 7 then they can use electrical aids.

They simply do not learn the mechanics of it all if using aids.

A famous quote in our family........... I can't read I am only Seven you know..............

I could read when I was four


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2020)

Interesting Q&A tonight.

The Aussies wanted to talk about social inclusion while the Chinese parent wanted to talk about education standards.

Shows just why we are lagging behind in education achievement.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

It will be interesting to see if the naplan results improve, when children are schooled online, during the crisis.
Just a thought.


----------



## macca (25 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see if the naplan results improve, when children are schooled online, during the crisis.
> Just a thought.




Online schooling is unlikely to change the subject matter, unfortunately

If the grandparents were to step in and home school in the old fashioned way then Naplan results would be spectacularly better in 2 months


----------



## BlindSquirrel (26 March 2020)

macca said:


> If the grandparents were to step in and home school in the old fashioned way then Naplan results would be spectacularly better in 2 months








Sit down and study!!


----------



## sptrawler (24 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting Q&A tonight.
> 
> The Aussies wanted to talk about social inclusion while the Chinese parent wanted to talk about education standards.
> 
> Shows just why we are lagging behind in education achievement.



Well Rumpy, now we have a situation where teachers don't want to go back to school, why would they? When they can stay at home 365 days on full pay, great work if you can get it.
Education and teachers have really hit a low point, god knows where Australia will end up, like I said early in the thread teachers today love the job and conditions, just need to get rid of the kids.
Well they think they have struck gold with the virus.IMO


----------



## dutchie (26 April 2020)

I think the USA should replace "Women Studies" and a lot of the other BS courses with *Geography*.



I'm assuming that Australians would do better in this exercise.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2020)

Now the virus is abating, we can get back to our normal gripes, this is a great read and shows what a state our education system is in.
We have thrown billions of extra funding at education and what do we have to show for it? Falling educational standards and falling behavioural standards, social engineering gone mad IMO.
It wont be long before the kids are running the schools and the teachers are doing as they are told.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...0-p54rm5.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Now the virus is abating, we can get back to our normal gripes, this is a great read and shows what a state our education system is in.
> We have thrown billions of extra funding at education and what do we have to show for it? Falling educational standards and falling behavioural standards, social engineering gone mad IMO.
> It wont be long before the kids are running the schools and the teachers are doing as they are told.
> 
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...0-p54rm5.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true





The proportion of male teachers in schools continues to fall. This is one of the main reasons for a decline in standards imo. Nothing against women teachers but there needs to be more "strong" male role models in schools who can stand up to disruptive students and their parents.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The proportion of male teachers in schools continues to fall. This is one of the main reasons for a decline in standards imo. Nothing against women teachers but there needs to be more "strong" male role models in schools who can stand up to disruptive students and their parents.



Unfortunately no male in his right mind would become a teacher, it takes one person to fabricate something and the rest of your life would be ruined, it will eventually become such a mess that schools will become a thing of the past.
They will be just places to keep kids off the street, then when that fails it will be learn from home IMO, the PC crew have completely destroyed schools IMO.
Schools were a place of learning both academically and socially, now they are place where both teachers and students don't want to be.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

Another example of how the education system has gone backwards, despite the extra funding and extra resources.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...s-to-suspending-students-20200731-p55hfm.html


----------



## macca (3 August 2020)

Teenagers are Always going to be testing the boundaries, they are genetically programmed to do just that.

By relaxing the limits on their behaviour we have simply allowed them to get to the dangerous level where people are killed.

It used to be much stricter, they still tested the boundaries but had further to go before being deadly.

My last business had 80% teenagers and young men as clients, we had absolutely zero tolerance for any swearing, shouting, pushing etc, on the premises, one warning then barred for week. 

Warned again, barred for a month............................

Any loud mouth who fired up was quickly shut down by their own mates because they knew that they would all be barred.

Boundaries need to be placed well before any level that becomes dangerous


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

macca said:


> Teenagers are Always going to be testing the boundaries, they are genetically programmed to do just that.
> 
> By relaxing the limits on their behaviour we have simply allowed them to get to the dangerous level where people are killed.



Yes it was pretty obvious 30-40 years ago, bad behaviour was dealt with quickly.
Now bad behaviour is condoned, as long as it is based on a cause, whether that cause is righteous or not is decided by the media.
So the lines of acceptable behaviour have become more and more blurred and it wont be until society falls to anarchy that it will be reigned in, until then it just makes good t.v fodder.
IMO when society collapses, the media will be fully regulated and censorship will be re introduced, the early stages of it are happening with social media.
Anyway drifting a bit off topic, but social media and entertainment media are responsible for a lot of ideology adopted by youth, so it is in a way education related.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2020)

Another example of the effect public debate can have on people's behaviour IMO.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...gh-school-students-violent-girl-gang/12598628


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

Well it has taken a long time, but it sounds as though there is a realisation that the old system was pretty good. Sounds like a re introduction of the 'junior certificate' yeh.
Possibly a movement away from the,'don't test them untill they get to uni, it only stresses them', then find out they can't read and write when they get there.
https://www.smh.com.au/education/push-for-naplan-to-be-expanded-into-new-test-for-all-students-20200828-p55q9v.html#:~:text=The new test would be,NSW, Queensland and the ACT.&text=Year 9 students would no,also sit the new test.
From the article:
_NAPLAN, the standardised test of every Australian student's literacy and numeracy skills, could be replaced by a new, broader test that also includes science, technology and a greater focus on critical and creative thinking.
*Year 9 students would no longer sit the revamped test, with students to be assessed in year 10 instead*. All students in years 3, 5 and 7 would also sit the new test.

The year 9 test is characterised by high absenteeism and low achievement, the review found.

The test would also be moved from May to as early in the school year as possible, to prevent schools "teaching to the test" to lift their results.
Students and teachers should also get results within one week of the test, instead of months later, the report recommends. This would make the test a better measure of each students "starting point" for the school year.

Science and technology would be added to the competencies students are tested on, along with a test of each student's critical and creative thinking.
The writing component of the test would also be changed dramatically to discourage schools from taking formulaic or rote approaches to the test that have been the subject of long-standing criticism.
The new test would be called Australian National Standardised Assessments (ANSA).

The review was conducted by Emeritus Professor Barry McGaw, Emeritus Professor Bill Louden and Professor Claire Wyatt-Smith, and considered standardised assessment practices around the world, the uses of NAPLAN data and the content and delivery of the assessment itself.
Laureate Professor John Hattie, of the University of Melbourne Graduate School of Education, said he saw merit in creating a new test that prioritised science.
"At this stage the problem is that NAPLAN leads to competition between schools and a narrowing of what kids do to prepare to pass the test," Professor Hattie said_.

It hasn't taken long for the teachers to complain:
*TEACHERS WARN NAPLAN REPLACEMENT ‘EVEN WORSE’*
A war of words has erupted over the proposed replacement for NAPLAN with Queensland’s powerful teachers’ union warning it could “compound student suffering”, but others say it’s time to overhaul the more than decade-old test.


----------



## macca (2 September 2020)

Dear Oh me, we can't have the little petals suffering.........................

I read recently where shrinks were saying we need to teach kids that the world is not perfect and kids need to learn how to lose, what it feels like to be told No and they do need to study if they want a job

It was in relation to the increase in teenage suicide and I found it very sad that the transition to adulthood has become all too hard for some ill prepared kids.

Social media bullying, poor educational standards with the wrong priorities and in some cases slack parents is a terrible mix.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

macca said:


> Dear Oh me, we can't have the little petals suffering.........................
> 
> I read recently where shrinks were saying we need to teach kids that the world is not perfect and kids need to learn how to lose, what it feels like to be told No and they do need to study if they want a job
> 
> ...



Unfortunately that is what happens, when the fox gets control of the hen house.
It hasn't only happened in teaching, nursing has gone the same way.
My MIL has had a brain bleed and is in hospital, she comes from generations of nurses, like everyone on her side is a bloody nurse.
Cutting a long story short, the lack of accountability, lack of leadership, lack of care is shocking my other half is ropeable.


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Really, they just want their kids away from the riff-raff.




there is also the prestige factor, so people just want to look good to friends and family.


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2020)

dutchie said:


> I think the USA should replace "Women Studies" and a lot of the other BS courses with *Geography*.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that Australians would do better in this exercise.





I don’t know, I think if you spent half a day asking random Australians in the street to identify countries, you would end up with enough footage to fill a short YouTube video and make aussies appear dumb.

I personally know people that would struggle with that map.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

On the same theme, in the past it was a case of suck it up princess and get on with it, now we have the media pandering to those facing life's education a recession.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-real-taste-of-recession-20200902-p55rs0.html
From the article:
*Young Australians set to get their first real taste of recession*
*Anna Thwaites was a toddler during Australia's last recession. This time, she's 32 and facing an uncertain future with limited job prospects.

Ms Thwaites was made redundant from her full-time job as an editor at publishing company Scribe in April. She is yet to find another job — although she hasn't been looking just yet.
After negotiating her way onto JobKeeper, she has managed to stay on top of the bills during the COVID-19 lockdown.
"I've been granted this absolute fluke, in capitalism and life, to be paid enough money to cover rent and food and not have to work," she said.

But with the wage subsidy payments set to begin reducing from the end of this month, Ms Thwaites is preparing for the difficult task of finding work in the middle of a severe economic downturn.
*
FFS this has happened three times to people 60 years or older and there was no subsidy payments, why the fluck is it news now, in 30 years time she will be held up by the same media as one of the lucky ones* .
Most 60 year olds have only had minimal super, she will have 50 years of super*


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2020)

Everyone's starting to jockey for position, gentlepeople start your engines.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...with-disabilities-report-20200902-p55rrm.html
From the article:
_The number of students with disabilities in the public education system is predicted to grow by 50 per cent in the decade to 2027, and they will need twice as many specialist teachers and thousands more support classrooms.

Six new special needs schools will also have to be built every year if diagnosis and enrolment rates continue and policy settings do not change, modelling by Boston Consulting Group (BCG) for the NSW Department of Education found.

The confidential report, obtained under freedom of information laws, prompted mental health experts to call for a major investment in disability support staff, training and resources for schools, saying teachers are not equipped to respond_.


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2020)

OMG all in one day's media.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ds-of-complex-classrooms-20200901-p55rf1.html
From the text:
_A standard education degree is no longer enough to prepare prospective teachers for the challenges they will face in a job that has changed beyond recognition, the former head of the NSW Education Standards Authority has told an inquiry.

Tom Alegounarias, who also used to lead the NSW Institute of Teachers, said education degrees should emulate medical ones and require a few years of on-the-job training before a teacher became fully qualified_.

Wow does that mean that teaching is more about keeping the kids engaged, rather than having a teachers degree? Maybe we should go back to teacher training specific institutions, you know before we made it a degree, when teachers could actually teach.
It's about time teachers were measured against outcomes, if the same teacher produces students that perform well below standard, they should be checked against the norm for those students. If the students were performing normally pre that year and post that year then it should be investigated.
If an electrician was responsible for poor wiring, they would be investigated, if a doctor had numerous poor outcomes they would be investigated. It isn't rocket science IMO.
Just my opinion


----------



## sptrawler (21 January 2021)

Interesting article from the productivity commission re vocational training outcomes, if you ignore the headline, it is quite interesting and a good read.IMO









						Australian government urged to try and recover student loans from the dead
					

Productivity Commission suggests vocational students should be charged minimum upfront fees to avoid perceptions of ‘free money’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2021)

The 10 year old grandson said last night that Naplan starts today, it will be interesting to see if there is any changes in performance, due to parents home schooling during the lockdowns.  








						1 million students will start NAPLAN tests today, but is it possible to just opt out?
					

Some parents say NAPLAN tests are so stressful they bring their children to tears — but it is possible for students to skip them?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (11 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The 10 year old grandson said last night that Naplan starts today, it will be interesting to see if there is any changes in performance, due to parents home schooling during the lockdowns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I got a laugh when the Qld teachers union reccomended that teachers "exempt" their students from NAPLAN.

They are dead scared it will expose their own failings.









						Teachers' union tells its 47,000 members to withdraw their own children from NAPLAN
					

The Queensland state school teachers' union has told its members and principals with children to withdraw them from this year's NAPLAN test.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2021)

Legal loophole which allows NSW students to take knives to school shocks Premier Gladys Berejiklian​








						Berejiklian 'taken aback' to learn students can take knives to school on religious grounds
					

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian says she has been shocked to learn students can take knives to school on religious grounds and pledges to take action against a law that "doesn't pass the common sense test".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Legal loophole which allows NSW students to take knives to school shocks Premier Gladys Berejiklian​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe the Somali students could take the Jile, with them, it wouldn't be long before teachers would be carrying arms, we are a weird Country in a lot of ways. 









						Jile - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2021)

It sounds as at least a couple of people have the right idea, let's hope the outcomes match the rhetoric.








						Students must learn about Western heritage to defend democracy: Tudge
					

Education Minister Alan Tudge declared the school funding wars over and said it was time to talk about teaching and standards.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Mr Tudge also declared the national school funding wars over, and said it was time to focus on education standards and teaching methods as he pursues his target of putting Australia back among the best-performing countries by 2030.
Mr Tudge addressed the Centre for Independent Studies on Tuesday night alongside Indigenous leader Noel Pearson, under whom he worked as the deputy director of Pearson’s Cape York Institute for three years between 2006 and 2009.

He outlined his priorities for education, which included addressing standards in university teacher training, embedding “effective teaching practices” in the curriculum, and ensuring a balanced approach to history and civics.
“We won’t get anywhere unless we get the pedagogy [teaching methods] right,” said Mr Pearson, who alongside Mr Tudge is a strong advocate for direct - or teacher-led - instruction, rather than the teacher acting as the ‘guide on the side’.

Mr Pearson also said Indigenous education would improve if governments made a commitment to lift all schools.

“At some point the Closing the Gap targets will become redundant - useless, possibly … and it’s because the differentiation of expectations of Aboriginal children are so far removed from the rest of Australia,” he said.
“We’ll just permanently have low expectations of Aboriginal kids. We should have the same expectations of Aboriginal children as we have for the rest of the community, for other Australian children.”

Loading
Remote schools struggled to attract teachers and support, partly because state ministers left them in the “too hard basket”, Mr Pearson said.
“Unless the government uses its funding authority in a strategic way to stop them and get the changes that are needed, we won’t make the progress we want to see.” He would like to see a federal minister remain in the job for five years.
Mr Pearson said he would also like to see 20 minutes a day of academic learning in the pre-school years, “not just play”, to offset the disadvantages faced by students who do not have books at home, nor parents who can help them.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

As we have said on many occasions, the problem with education, is the same problem with hospitals.
It has all become about the service providers and not about the service they are supposed to provide.
It has become about conditions and  wages, rather than about outcomes IMO.
That may sound harsh, but sometimes the truth is harsh, the problem today is the truth isn't very often acceptable.
Today's norm is, don't upset anyone, don't tell them they are not up to standard, tell them that it is all good the problem is no one appreciates how hard it is.
Meanwhile outcomes continue to fall.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As we have said on many occasions, the problem with education, is the same problem with hospitals.
> It has all become about the service providers and not about the service they are supposed to provide.
> It has become about conditions and  wages, rather than about outcomes IMO.
> That may sound harsh, but sometimes the truth is harsh, the problem today is the truth isn't very often acceptable.
> ...




Very true.

In regards to hospitals there was an article on the ABC which I can't find where a little girl died in a hospital and all the staff were worried about was their image.

Of course such events can be brought about by under-funding and often it's those on the front line that cop the brunt while the suits in the offices get off scot free, but it would have been a better look if the doctors and nurses paid some attention to bereaved family instead of to themselves.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Very true.
> 
> In regards to hospitals there was an article on the ABC which I can't find where a little girl died in a hospital and all the staff were worried about was their image.



When it was hospital based training, those with the wrong attitude were steered toward other professions that suited their personalities, now if someone passes the course they are given a badge. The same problem exists in teaching.
Some professions should never be university courses, especially when a major component of the profession is personality based, as well as technically based.
But that is what you get when vested interests, conflict with political parties.


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Interesting article, on the requirement of university academics to declare any foreign political affiliations.








						Unis push back on plan for academics to list foreign links
					

One proposal would see only academics involved in sensitive research or from high-risk countries required to disclose their links to overseas political parties.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Universities are pushing to limit the number of academics required to disclose their membership of overseas political parties under proposed new foreign interference measures as the government refuses to abandon the requirement entirely.


----------



## sptrawler (19 December 2021)

Hopefully the push to new technologies such as renewables, H2 and nuclear, will lead to a requirement for more exciting and interesting courses at schools, rather than just herding the masses through the arts degree gate sausage machine.









						Defence scrambles to train nuclear scientists for 'exciting roles' on AUKUS program
					

Students and public servants are being enticed with generous scholarships to study nuclear science and engineering so they can begin "exciting roles" on Australia's new nuclear submarine program.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

University axes Arts degree.









						Federation Uni decision to cut arts degree 'destructive and short-sighted', union says
					

Federation University announces it will cut its Bachelor of Arts program due to declining enrolments and steep fee increases, a move the union describes as "shameful".




					www.abc.net.au
				




This is due to declining enrollments.

Just wondering what others think about the BA degree.

Does it give useful skills in today's world, or is it just a refuge for Lefty intellectuals ?


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> University axes Arts degree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They can still go to the cities and learn. There is importance to BA degrees to society. 
I've been harping on for a while now about the terrible state of education in this country. It's a deadset pain acquiring new skills or interests. 

I believe there is currently some kind of "internet education revolution" going on. Well at least that's what Tony Robbins keeps pitch about in endless youtube ads


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> University axes Arts degree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Australia has to get back to an engineering and scientific based education system, there is a huge opportunity presenting as the clean energy wave spreads through all industries, new technologies, new processes, new materials, we have to take the opportunity to improve our educational standards for our kids sakes. If not we will just continue down the path of importing our highly paid skilled workers and making our kids social workers, baristas and table waiters.

It wasn't long ago in the places like the light industrial areas of Melbourne, that Australians had the skills and inspiration to design and build great cars.








						Drive Flashback: Australia's first proper sports car
					

The road to a mass-produced Australian sports car is paved with crashed hopes and dreams. In the 1960s and '70s, the Bolwell brothers came closest.




					www.drive.com.au
				




A list of some great Aussie inventions.








						20 Australian inventions that changed the world
					

Australians can be an ingenious bunch. Here are some of the best inventions to have come out of the nation.




					www.australiangeographic.com.au
				




Unfortunately not many arts degrees lead to a product that can be on sold to put bread on everyone's plate, inventions and new processes, efficiency improvements in existing processes, those are the things that bring sustainable recurring income to the country and maintain our welfare, health and education systems in the long term, when the raw materials that currently pay the bills are depleted.
Or indeed as is happening now with coal in the future it will no longer supply the large amount of income it has done in the past, what replaces that income? We need to get an engineering and scientific backbone to our economy...... 

Unfortunately the universities reducing the arts degrees and increasing the scientific and engineering courses doesn't change the underlying problem Australia has IMO, which is poor standards in the lower schooling years, all it will do is encourage more overseas students to take up the new positions available in the universities as our kids aren't doing the STEM subjects required for the higher level degrees.
I personally think going back to teaching the kids the times tables would be a good start, at least they then have an ability to use mental arithmetic, I do know it has moved my grandson from hating math's to being second top in grade 6 and actually now enjoying math's. 









						Challenges for STEM education not yet met
					

The world is one of fast-changing technologies, shifting job descriptions and new industries arising overnight that should be good for STEM students but challenges persist.




					www.afr.com
				



The world is one of fast-changing technologies, shifting job descriptions and new industries arising overnight.

While this could prove a potential gold-mine for students of science, technology, engineering and maths (STEM), Australia's school performance in these subjects has not been improving and ingrained gaps in socio-economic and gender attainment are not shifting, says the Australian Council for Education Research (ACER).

Continuing decline in performance​Timms was the co-author of an ACER policy insight paper, _The Challenges of STEM Learning in Australian Schools_, published in May this year. The paper acknowledges that Australia has been talking about STEM education for 20 years but the results are not good.

"Set against Australia's desire for strong, comprehensive and equitable STEM education is evidence that our education systems are not up to the challenge," said the paper, co-written by Kathryn Moyle, Paul Weldon and Pru Mitchell.


The paper says recent results of national and international tests show a continuing decline in performance by Australian students and concerns persist that Australia does not have sufficient teachers qualified to teach STEM.

Education departments need to do more work on increasing teacher capacity and teaching quality in STEM. School systems have to support STEM education opportunities and facilitate effective partnerships with tertiary education, business and industry.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia has to get back to an engineering and scientific based education system, there is a huge opportunity presenting as the clean energy wave spreads through all industries, new technologies, new processes, new materials, we have to take the opportunity to improve our educational standards for our kids sakes. If not we will just continue down the path of importing our highly paid skilled workers and making our kids social workers, baristas and table waiters.
> 
> It wasn't long ago in the places like the light industrial areas of Melbourne, that Australians had the skills and inspiration to design and build great cars.
> 
> ...




Excellent response sp.

It would be interesting to know how many secondary school teachers have BA's , as opposed to qualifications in what they actually teach, especially Maths and Science.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

Yes @SirRumpole the teachers have way too much say in their own KPI's and the levels of achievement they have to attain, IMO they have become 'sacred cows' nothing can be said about their outcomes and they can never be blamed, the media and politicians are way too quick to protect them from scrutiny. Why that is the case I don't know, maybe it is political connections and social connections?
We are just constantly moving the goal posts down, in order to cover a failing system, I'm not saying that there aren't any good teachers, of course there are, I just believe they are far outnumbered by poor teachers, sadly.
I asked the grandson how he was doing at math's, as we only taught him his multiplication tables a couple of years ago, when he couldn't answer simple mathematical problems at home during covid lockdown.
He said he was really enjoying it and doing well, they were starting to learn algebra, year 6. So I asked how are the kids that don't know their multiplication tables going, he said they are struggling, so pressing further I asked how are the doing when they have to do a test, to which he said if they can't do the test they are given a test that they can do.
Look maybe I'm too critical, but I just can't see how poverty isn't going to rise in Australia, if our kids can't achieve a reasonable level of education. IMO what we have at the moment is a negative feedback loop, where we are pushing through teachers in a sausage factory like manner, in the name of improving teacher to student ratios.
The problem is IMO, the quality is being sacrificed in the name of quantity.
How you fix that? I'm sure there are experts who know, but are not allowed to say, but a good start would be ensuring that the teachers are actually competent to teach.
For the past 20 years, teachers pay and conditions have been improved in the name of improving outcomes, that hasn't happened, another tack has to be taken before it is too late IMO.
It isn't just teaching that is suffering from a poor education system, it permeates through to a poor workforce, poor math's skills limits the quality of any profession that relies on it for the quality of the end product and leads to the situation where quality labour has to be imported.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes @SirRumpole the teachers have way too much say in their own KPI's and the levels of achievement they have to attain, IMO they have become 'sacred cows' nothing can be said about their outcomes and they can never be blamed, the media and politicians are way too quick to protect them from scrutiny. Why that is the case I don't know, maybe it is political connections and social connections?
> We are just constantly moving the goal posts down, in order to cover a failing system, I'm not saying that there aren't any good teachers, of course there are, I just believe they are far outnumbered by poor teachers, sadly.
> I asked the grandson how he was doing at math's, as we only taught him his multiplication tables a couple of years ago, when he couldn't answer simple mathematical problems at home during covid lockdown.
> He said he was really enjoying it and doing well, they were starting to learn algebra, year 6. So I asked how are the kids that don't know their multiplication tables going, he said they are struggling, so pressing further I asked how are the doing when they have to do a test, to which he said if they can't do the test they are given a test that they can do.
> ...



You can't get teachers with experience in the subject matter right now.
Latest example for me was my sons electrician teacher at tafe. He came out of retirement and cannot teach to save his life. No one else available.

 The whole class literally found out there was actually a book they were supposed to buy beginning of the year-last week. This is after endless tests and the teacher teaching the wrong subjects for each test. My son had to strong arm the teacher into letting them all go get the book immediately from the shop. The teachers excuse was that he "didn't like teaching like that". 

Another recent one was a friend going to English classes with a teacher that couldn't speak English properly.

Primary and high schools are a bloody right off.
There's some good teachers around. But there's a damn majority of sht ones. 

Not that kids or parents would be great to deal with.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> You can't get teachers with experience in the subject matter right now.
> Latest example for me was my sons electrician teacher at tafe. He came out of retirement and cannot teach to save his life. No one else available.
> 
> The whole class literally found out there was actually a book they were supposed to buy beginning of the year-last week. This is after endless tests and the teacher teaching the wrong subjects for each test. My son had to strong arm the teacher into letting them all go get the book immediately from the shop. The teachers excuse was that he "didn't like teaching like that".
> ...



Like I said it is the quality of a lot of teachers and also just because someone knows the subject doesn't mean they can teach it, a lot of teaching the skill is the ability to communicate and keep the student engaged.
I personally think teaching should be taken out of universities again and teaching specific institutions should be re established as before when there were teacher training colleges.
Then there was a selection process and entrance interview, just because someone likes the idea of teaching, it doesn't always follow they have the right personal traits to be a teacher, the current system has no filter as long as someone completes the course they get a certificate and a badge.
To me that system is destined to fail, when a major component of the skill set can't be taught or measured, yet universities aren't designed to deal with that.
For example how do you get a teacher interested in the outcomes, when the main driver for them taking up the profession was to get maximum holiday time and work that aligned with school times?
I'm not saying that all teachers have that attitude, but in the same breath I would be surprised if some didn't especially when it has one of the lowest university entrance requirements.
I'm not trying to have a go here, just saying that we need desperately to improve our teaching standards and the past method of throwing money at it hasn't worked so as with a lot of things maybe a back to the future approach should be tried.

On a side note @moXJO , I'm a sparky and so is my oldest son, he works in the mines really smart kid, year 12 physics, chemistry, maths 2 & 3 calculus etc.
He wants to get his house paid off, then wants to become a TAFE teacher, he is 44. When he was a kid he used to help his younger siblings with their homework, at the company he worked for in the Goldfields they used to let him teach the apprentices for 4hours a week, he is the sort of guy the TAFE system needs.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes @SirRumpole the teachers have way too much say in their own KPI's and the levels of achievement they have to attain, IMO they have become 'sacred cows' nothing can be said about their outcomes and they can never be blamed, the media and politicians are way too quick to protect them from scrutiny. Why that is the case I don't know, maybe it is political connections and social connections?
> We are just constantly moving the goal posts down, in order to cover a failing system, I'm not saying that there aren't any good teachers, of course there are, I just believe they are far outnumbered by poor teachers, sadly.
> I asked the grandson how he was doing at math's, as we only taught him his multiplication tables a couple of years ago, when he couldn't answer simple mathematical problems at home during covid lockdown.
> He said he was really enjoying it and doing well, they were starting to learn algebra, year 6. So I asked how are the kids that don't know their multiplication tables going, he said they are struggling, so pressing further I asked how are the doing when they have to do a test, to which he said if they can't do the test they are given a test that they can do.
> ...




To me, the only answer is (which will never be done because the unions will throw a tantrum) is for the Federal government to create 'polytechnics), specialising in STEM and competing with State schools, provide finance for uni students doing appropriate subjects and financing it by cutting  funds it now provides to private schools.

That way, it can select students on merit, not their parent's income and we have the best chance of the best people having the skills we need.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> To me, the only answer is (which will never be done because the unions will throw a tantrum) is for the Federal government to create 'polytechnics), specialising in STEM and competing with State schools, provide finance for uni students doing appropriate subjects and financing it by cutting  funds it now provides to private schools.
> 
> That way, it can select students on merit, not their parent's income and we have the best chance of the best people having the skills we need.



Exactly, we used to have polytechnical schools like WAIT ( Western Australian institute of Technology), they changed them all over to universities, then the purpose gets watered down and lastly the subjects and courses that attract the high paying O/S students take precedence.
Then it follows the rest down the same path, sausage factories concerned with quantity, rather than quality and local content.
To be honest IMO, it started going down hill when a lot of high level politicians with a background in teaching attained office, since then it has become a festering mess for everyone except the teachers.

the Perth Technical College

History. Curtin University was founded in 1966 as *the Western Australian Institute of Technology*. Its nucleus comprised the tertiary programs of the Perth Technical College, which opened in 1900. The university's Bentley campus was selected in 1962, and officially opened in 1966.









						Western Australian Institute of Technology, 1966 to 1986, history - About | Curtin University
					

Emerging in 1966 as one of Australia's largest and innovative Colleges, The Western Australia Institute of Technology (WAIT) grew quickly.




					www.curtin.edu.au
				




The reason it will never go back, is as you say the unions will throw a tantrum, because a lot of the political motivation behind the move was to make the jobs a degree job, which then attracted more money.
When people went to WAIT or a polytechnic, they only received a certificate or a diploma, they had to go to university to get a degree, answer make everything a degree make every institution a university and water down the course.
They old filtering system ensured the best rose to the top and everyone attained a level where they could perform to their abilities, now every one is the same and the Australian degree has been devalued as has the product. I never went to Uni, but I worked alongside many people who did and the difference in abilities of engineers is huge, as it is in most fields today, due to the decline in education standards and the removal of filters like the junior certificate, leaving, matriculation etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Exactly, we used to have polytechnical schools like WAIT ( Western Australian institute of Technology), they changed them all over to universities, then the purpose gets watered down and lastly the subjects and courses that attract the high paying O/S students take precedence.
> Then it follows the rest down the same path, sausage factories concerned with quantity, rather than quality and local content.
> To be honest IMO, it started going down hill when a lot of high level politicians with a background in teaching attained office, since then it has become a festering mess for everyone except the teachers.
> 
> ...




I was thinking of polytechnics as an alternative to State secondary schools, although the TAFE sector also needs rejuvenation.

Polytechnic secondary schools would give students a better grounding in STEM so that there would be an easier transition into Uni STEM courses, instead of the unis having to do remedial courses in Maths etc. Poly students wouldn't have to sit through useless classes in social equity and the like and would be able to concentrate on getting useful skills, and they could make a better choice whether they wanted a trade qualification or Uni degree.


----------



## IFocus (5 August 2022)

Would have told this story before, son did a secondary teaching degree, he was going to save the world until he did his prac then he saw the assaults', false actuations and the way teaches were treated that's all before you talk about the pay.

He is now a manager of a company best choice he ever made.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would have told this story before, son did a secondary teaching degree, he was going to save the world until he did his prac then he saw the assaults', false actuations and the way teaches were treated that's all before you talk about the pay.
> 
> He is now a manager of a company best choice he ever made.




That's disappointing. It probably says a lot about why politicians send their kids to private schools.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would have told this story before, son did a secondary teaching degree, he was going to save the world until he did his prac then he saw the assaults', false actuations and the way teaches were treated that's all before you talk about the pay.
> 
> He is now a manager of a company best choice he ever made.



A well raised capitalist. Good for you.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would have told this story before, son did a secondary teaching degree, he was going to save the world until he did his prac then he saw the assaults', false actuations and the way teaches were treated that's all before you talk about the pay.
> 
> He is now a manager of a company best choice he ever made.



Yep non of it bodes well for our education system, as you say there is a guy that is needed in the education system, but what is there for him?
Our society is an absolute mess, we have car thieves chasing police around in stolen cars, teachers getting bashed by students, elderly getting raped, assaulted and robbed and we project an impression that we are more concerned with the perpetrators welfare than the victims IMO.
We are certainly living in strange times.
Your son is fortunate he is obviously smart and has his head screwed on, but there aren't as many company managers jobs as teaching jobs that need better teachers.
As for kids bashing teachers, who are there to help them improve their lives, well you can't do anything about that because as we all know in every bad person there is a good person just waiting to get out, all they need is a big hug and they will stop hurting you.🤣
Prisons are full of them.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would have told this story before, son did a secondary teaching degree, he was going to save the* world until he did his prac then he saw the assaults', false actuations and the way teaches were treated that's all before you talk about the pay.*



Yes police have similar issues, we are breeding a lack of respect for authority, which is another area of Australian society that will end badly  IMO.

But does it all stem back to the fact discipline is no longer in fashion for children, just ask them nicely and if the don't do as they were asked, then beg, bribe, whinge, whine and nag them until the adult looks like the child and brings out the big guns "count to three", but never get past two over and over again.
That one just commands instant respect, but more often a lollie, you see it in the shops every day in the shops.

This guy was just given 10 months non parole period, for bashing police with a baseball bat, I guess if that policeman receives long term health issues, that's life. He probably should not have got his head in the way of the bat.









						'Inadequate' police bashing sentence triggers calls for law overhaul
					

A sentence imposed for a Warrnambool man who attacked two police officers with a metal baseball bat has sparked outcry.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (5 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> University axes Arts degree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Firstly, my son was at Ballarat University  when they changed the name to Federation University.
Like a lot of his friends there, they just referred to it as FU.
Which just about sums up the attitude of the Universities to its customers, the students.
Back in the early 90's when i was working in Irian Jaya, I needed some thing totally unrelated to my work as an outlet.
Not being a TV watcher, I started a remote  arts degree  through Deakin University with a major in the history and Philosophy of science.
I would select the required books from a list , and they would be air freighted to me. System worked really well.
The nature of the remote learning meant that one could do the course all year round by taking 'summer semester subjects" when the  usual university  courses where shut down over summer.
I learnt a number of things from this exercise.
1. When I did my  Engineering Degree, I had about 35 hours of lectures, pracs and tutorials per week. An arts degree was about 15 hours of lectures and tutorials with zero pracs each week.
2. When you have been working for a number of years, have people reporting to you, and have to manage your time  carefully, doing extra curricula study is significantly easier than when at 17 you are marched off to uni from the shelter of high school.
3. An arts degree is about as useless as t1ts on a bull, and as relevant as  a  speech by Gina Reinhart on living as a poor person.
They don't even offer the  concept of arguing about ideas, its toe the left wing line or fail.
All you have to do is quote parts of various prescribed books to pass.
The only part I enjoyed was when we had compulsory weekend  get togethers of the remote learning students,  where i took the opposite view of whatever the previous earnest young  student had put forward.
 It was dead easy to show that they really did not understand what they read or wrote by pointing out their obvious contradictions, or demonstrating what happens in the real world  as distinct from what happens in theory.
So, from my observations, if they lose the arts degrees, the world is unlikely to fall apart.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (5 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> A well raised capitalist. Good for you.




Haha actually his politics, social conscience are to the left of me...


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Haha actually his politics, social conscience are to the left of me...



All he has to worry about then,  is the people who work for him, playing on his social conscience.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2022)

Here is an article on the subject of University degrees, from a group which are usually left leaning and agrees with my assessment.









						Universities turn degrees into toilet paper
					

Earlier this year, Productivity Commission data revealed that 47.8% of Australians aged under 25 were enrolled in a bachelor degree at university. In turn, it confirmed that the Rudd Government’s goal to increase university participation rates to 40% have been exceeded. According to data...




					www.macrobusiness.com.au
				



Earlier this year, Productivity Commission data revealed that 47.8% of Australians aged under 25 were enrolled in a bachelor degree at university. In turn, it confirmed that the Rudd Government’s goal to increase university participation rates to 40% have been exceeded.


According to data published on the federal government’s Course Seeker website, this explosion in enrolments has been achieved by scraping the bottom of the barrel, with 221 different bachelor degrees offering university places to students with Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR) scores below 50 – the bottom 10% of high school leavers:



> “Low university-entry scores for teaching degrees is a growing concern”, [*Australian Education Union president Correna Haythorpe warned*]…


----------



## macca (8 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Here is an article on the subject of University degrees, from a group which are usually left leaning and agrees with my assessment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think that it is a poor commentary on the educators of Australia, to encourage people who basically failed the High School exam to attend Uni simply stupid.

We end up with Unis full of people who should not be there, clogging up resources and tutors and hampering those who should be there.

Those who inevitably fail, end up with a Uni debt that when they eventually find there niche, perhaps driving a backhoe, they have to repay a debt that they should have been strongly advised against incurring.

Ego tripping for educators does not help Australia when we need trades and truck drivers


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2022)

macca said:


> I think that it is a poor commentary on the educators of Australia, to encourage people who basically failed the High School exam to attend Uni simply stupid.
> 
> We end up with Unis full of people who should not be there, clogging up resources and tutors and hampering those who should be there.
> 
> ...



Yes it is the down side of not having a continuous testing programme in schools, where a young person can judge for themselves how they are going academically and make a honest decision as to whether they should go on.
As with most things that politicians get involved in, it ends up a mess and our education system is no different, the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't work anymore.
The politicians have to feel they are making a difference, whether they have the ability to improve things is questionable, most things they change they stuff up.
40% of students will go to uni whether they are smart enough or not and they will devalue the degrees of the 10% who should be there, yep Australia the smart country.
Give out toilet paper degrees and import technical skills, magic.
The one thing you will never hear from politicians, "look I think we have stuffed this up, let's rewind back to the way it was". 😂


----------



## MovingAverage (8 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes it is the down side of not having a continuous testing programme in schools, where a young person can judge for themselves how they are going academically and make a honest decision as to whether they should go on.
> As with most things that politicians get involved in, it ends up a mess and our education system is no different, the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't work anymore.
> The politicians have to feel they are making a difference, whether they have the ability to improve things is questionable, most things they change they stuff up.
> 40% of students will go to uni whether they are smart enough or not and they will devalue the degrees of the 10% who should be there, yep Australia the smart country.
> ...



Problem is Uni’s are not about education these days—they are about making money. This is why they are so focused on giving out toilet paper degrees to anyone and everyone because that is where the money is at.


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2022)

@SirRumpole at last a glimmer of hope.









						Forget the fads: Maths teachers urged to focus on traditional teaching methods
					

A new report says teachers are often misinformed about how students learn and what works in the classroom.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Maths teachers should ditch “faddish” practices and focus on proven methods such as using clear and detailed instruction and teaching algorithms.

A new report from the Centre for Independent Studies says that teachers are often misinformed about how students learn and what works in the classroom.

The report, _Myths are Undermining Maths Teaching_, calls for a focus on traditional education methods such as explicit teaching, involving the explanation and demonstration of new skills, instead of “inquiry-based learning”.
Opposing education academics say teachers should be able to use their professional judgment to decide the best teaching methods on a case-by-case basis.

Australian student achievement in the OECD-run Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) has declined more steeply and consistently than any other country except Finland. This downward trend has been greatest in mathematics. Compared with the top-performer, Singapore, the Australian students who sat the most recent PISA test in 2018 were three years behind in maths.

“Helping teachers to substitute faddish and evidence-free practices with proven, effective teaching will lift outcomes of students,” Powell said.

The report argues in favour of explicitly teaching students mathematics skills first and later encouraging independent practice and application of skills.

“While some students may thrive with true inquiry-based learning, their success is an exception rather than the standard outcome,” the report said.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2022)

Like I've said over and over teaching and nursing need to go back to the future, to a previous system that had a much better outcomes.
Rather than just making professions a degree, to give pay rises for no improvement of outcomes and to secondly entice paying students.
The problem here is no responsibility of outcomes IMO, the triage nurse has a degree, but she probably can't act on her assumptions despite a degree, without a doctors approval.
So is the problem the nurses degree lacks competence, therefore why have a degree, or the procedures lack the trust in the nurses degree? So why have a degree.
Either make nursing degrees up to the requirements of entry level doctors levels, or get back to where it was before all this nonsense happened making nurses a university course.
Before anyone pays out, the wife did her hospital based RN training in the mid 70's and then did a degree in 2006, so don't try to tell me how to suck eggs.
If nurses are going to be responsible, they need to be vetted better and paid better, it is a doubled edged sword.
Many wouldn't make it, but those that did, would be worth something.









						Triage nurse tells inquest into WA girl’s sepsis death that exhausted staff were ‘under pressure’
					

Jacqueline Taylor tells court she was running desk alone with 96 patients on afternoon Aishwarya Aswath presented




					www.theguardian.com
				



_A nurse who inspected Aishwarya Aswath at a Perth hospital has told an inquest into the girl’s death that her triage score was appropriate but says time constraints prevented a more thorough assessment.

Seven-year-old Aishwarya died of sepsis in April last year, hours after presenting to the Perth children’s hospital emergency department with a fever and unusually cold hands.


She had been left in a waiting room for more than 90 minutes, despite her parents pleading with staff to escalate care as her condition deteriorated.
An inquest into her death is examining why their concerns were not acted upon earlier._


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A nurse who inspected Aishwarya Aswath at a Perth hospital has told an inquest into the girl’s death that her triage score was appropriate but says time constraints prevented a more thorough assessment.




So is the problem training or workload in this case ?

Hopefully the inquest recides.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So is the problem training or workload in this case ?
> 
> Hopefully the inquest recides.



That is the $64,000 question, I think the nurses should be given more authority to make decisions, they do a degree so their level of responsibility should be commensurate with their training.
Having to seek a doctor all the time, must take up a huge amount of the ED nurses time, if the diagnosis is standard and the required procedure is standard, why can't a university graduate nurse commence the procedure.
There seems to be a lot of double handling and waiting around involved.
As you say hopefully the inquest comes up with answers, it would be soul destroying for the parents, getting the child to hospital and waiting around as she passes away.
The nursing staff must feel terrible also, not being in a position to do anything.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2022)

Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.









						Is education or immigration the answer to our skills shortage? We asked 50 economists
					

Among the top economists surveyed was the man who designed Australia’s higher education loans scheme – who described funding for vocational education as a “mess”.




					theconversation.com


----------



## SirRumpole (30 August 2022)

A good move by the US government.

All taxpayer funded research to be made freely available by 2025.









						The US has ruled all taxpayer-funded research must be free to read. What's the benefit of open access?
					

Lack of free access to research leads to discrimination, both in academia and for us all. The new guidance from the US is a huge step in the right direction.




					theconversation.com


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.



Of course it is, sending kids on to uni whether they are good enough or not is crazy, when we are screaming out for tradespeople.
The main issue is, the Governments don't want to go back to supplying services, when they can just contract it out to the private sector.
I was at a meeting with a manager in a large government organisation, he said they were going to contract out a lot of the maintenance work, I asked how will the apprentices get the experience, his answer we are not here as a training ground for apprentices who will go to the private sector anyway.
I said that is exactly what we are and should be, at least the apprentice is given a comprehensive grounding of the fundamentals, working for a company that does things to a standard not to a budget. That was back in the 1990's and I don't think anything has changed.
I should have saved my breath.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Of course it is, sending kids on to uni whether they are good enough or not is crazy, when we are screaming out for tradespeople.
> The main issue is, the Governments don't want to go back to supplying services, when they can just contract it out to the private sector.
> I was at a meeting with a manager in a large government organisation, he said they were going to contract out a lot of the maintenance work, I asked how will the apprentices get the experience, his answer we are not here as a training ground for apprentices who will go to the private sector anyway.
> I said that is exactly what we are and should be, at least the apprentice is given a comprehensive grounding of the fundamentals, working for a company that does things to a standard not to a budget. That was back in the 1990's and I don't think anything has changed.
> I should have saved my breath.




I wonder whether trades are attractive to enough people these days.

There is the image of dirty tradies in the dust , mud, hot roofs , septic tanks etc when a lot of the young generation seem to want a clean life in front of a PC doing 'management' type stuff.

I reckon the pay rates for electricians, plumbers metal workers etc will have to increase a lot to compensate.

Maybe people here who are or were tradies can add more.


----------



## mullokintyre (6 September 2022)

Melbourne University is offering a course in learning how to do an appropriate acknowledgement of country ceremony.
from Melb Uni





This is why I think the Unis have become captured by ideology.
Firstly, for a non indigenous person to be conducting an acknowledgement  to country ceremony, its purely cultural appropriation. How on earth can a non indigenousvperson conduct such a ceremony, its logically all wrong.
secondly, why would an indigenous person need to be told about something that is part of their own culture.
only 990 bucks for the course though, pretty good value.
mick


----------



## SirRumpole (6 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Melbourne University is offering a course in learning how to do an appropriate acknowledgement of country ceremony.
> from Melb Uni
> View attachment 146419
> 
> ...



What can you say ?

Next they will make it compulsory.

Not joking.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.



Education is the answer, whether it improves, is the question.








						Students struggling in maths start high school up to five years behind advanced peers
					

A survey of 228 teachers also found that most primary school teachers feel under-trained to differentiate their lesson plans so that advanced students can be stretched and slower students can catch up.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Primary school students who struggle with maths are starting high school as much as five years behind their more advanced classmates, setting teachers an almost insurmountable task to close the gap.

Thirty-six per cent of Australian primary school teachers surveyed by Oxford University Press said many of their students were beginning high school without important foundational skills in maths such as knowing their times tables or using estimation to predict answers.
Those students are far more likely to begin secondary school disengaged from mathematics and to experience anxiety about learning maths, increasing the risk that they will fall further behind.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Education is the answer, whether it improves, is the question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is very sad. Maybe remedial classes could be set up, but I wouldn't trust teachers to have the required knowledge either.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> That is very sad. Maybe remedial classes could be set up, but I wouldn't trust teachers to have the required knowledge either.



Re introducing the times table, in primary school, would be a great start IMO. 
Way too much time spent on social engineering and no time spent on teaching basic maths.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Re introducing the times table, in primary school, would be a great start IMO.
> Way too much time spent on social engineering and no time spent on teaching basic maths.



I'm surprised they don't do times tables any more. It's the foundation of all Maths.

Maths is seen as something for Geeks when in fact it is an indispensible part of education.

Advanced Maths is not for everyone, but for scientists and engineers you can't go anywhere without it.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm surprised they don't do times tables any more. It's the foundation of all Maths.



Thats because maths  in now recognised as a symbol of white supremacy.
From Scientific American


> Racism, sexism and other forms of systematic oppression are not unique to mathematics, and they certainly are not new, yet many in the field still deny their existence. “One of the biggest challenges is how hard it can be to start a conversation” about the problem, Sawyer says, “because mathematicians are so convinced that math is the purest of all of the sciences.” Yet statistics on the mathematics profession are difficult to ignore. In 2019 a _New York Times_ profile of Edray Herber Goins, a Black mathematics professor at Pomona College, reported that “fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans.” A 2020 NSF survey revealed that out of a total of 2,012 doctorates awarded in mathematics and statistics in the U.S. in 2019, only 585 (29.1 percent) were awarded to women. That percentage is slightly lower than in 2010, when 29.4 percent of doctorates in those areas (467 out of 1,590) were awarded to women. (Because these numbers are grouped based on sex rather than gender, that survey did not report how many of those individuals identify as a gender other than male or female.)



What of course the article omits to mention is what percentage of the students even studying math are Afro American.
Maybe they prefer something easier, like  studying the origins of RAP music.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Thats because maths  in now recognised as a symbol of white supremacy.
> From Scientific American
> 
> What of course the article omits to mention is what percentage of the students even studying math are Afro American.
> ...



I could go on about things like this, but creeping political correctness is evident in so many places.

Merit should be what it's all about, not social or gender identity, no wonder our education standards are declining.

Of course, the user pays education system in the US is contributing, a good education over there requires a rich mommy or poppy, but the trends here are not good as well.









						Australian students slip in global maths, reading and science rankings
					

A worldwide study of more than half a million 15-year-olds shows Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (6 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I could go on about things like this, but creeping political correctness is evident in so many places.
> 
> Merit should be what it's all about, not social or gender identity, no wonder our education standards are declining.
> 
> ...



The Chinese students don't need a rich mommy or poppy to make the grade.
You really only need mildly interested parents or grandparents.
Thhe higher the level of interest, the better the outcome.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Chinese students don't need a rich mommy or poppy to make the grade.
> You really only need mildly interested parents or grandparents.
> Thhe higher the level of interest, the better the outcome.
> Mick



So the schools are only there to provide child care facilities?


----------



## sptrawler (20 October 2022)

@SirRumpole they are starting to highlight the problem, hopefully they solve it eventually.




__





						Education: Maths to become compulsory for NSW Year 11 and 12 students
					





					amp.9news.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (20 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @SirRumpole they are starting to highlight the problem, hopefully they solve it eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It was compulsory in my day, when was it dropped ?


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It was compulsory in my day, when was it dropped ?



I don't know, but here is another article ing the problem, standards are continuing to fall in both maths and reading.








						Reading standards for year 9 boys at record low, NAPLAN results show
					

Despite overall results from this year’s NAPLAN tests being stable there are still some areas of concern.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know, but here is another article ing the problem, standards are continuing to fall in both maths and reading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We continue to throw money at education, we have supposedly the best trained teachers, our students are socially aware, we have extensive sex education, bullying for being gay, transgender, non binary, or  non white is being addressed, yet our standards in the things that are needed as part of life skills are falling. 
We have an army of people willing and well qualified and willing to enter into a myriad of social employment opportunities within the government, but cannot get enough doctors, nurses, software engineers or tradies.
Yeah, the solution is just throw more money at it.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

The NSW government is proud to announce that they will be including Aboriginal language part of the school syllabus.
From NSW Government 


> Students in NSW will soon be able to learn from the highest quality Aboriginal languages syllabus in the country with the release of a new Aboriginal Languages syllabus.
> Minister for Education and Early Learning Sarah Mitchell said NSW is proudly home to more than 35 Aboriginal Language groups, and more than 100 dialects of those languages.
> "This is the first major redevelopment of how Aboriginal languages are taught in our schools in 20 years,” Ms Mitchell said.
> “The new syllabus gives students valuable opportunities to learn the language of their local area and develop an understanding of Aboriginal languages and cultures.
> ...



Unfortunately, the department did not elaborate on where exactly they will find the qualified teachers fluent in any of the 35 languages and 100 dialects, but hey, never let  these small details get in the way of a feel good story.
Mick


----------



## macca (5 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The NSW government is proud to announce that they will be including Aboriginal language part of the school syllabus.
> From NSW Government
> 
> Unfortunately, the department did not elaborate on where exactly they will find the qualified teachers fluent in any of the 35 languages and 100 dialects, but hey, never let  these small details get in the way of a feel good story.
> Mick




the literacy rate is plummeting already so lets forget about that and teach them how to spell words of the local language which are unlikely to ever be used in the commercial or academic world.

How does one assess progress or learning when every tribe has a different language, it would be impossible to set a curriculum or an examination.

Then again, that would probably suit the teachers union, they certainly hate the NAPLAN test.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2022)

macca said:


> the literacy rate is plummeting already so lets forget about that and teach them how to spell words of the local language which are unlikely to ever be used in the commercial or academic world.
> 
> How does one assess progress or learning when every tribe has a different language, it would be impossible to set a curriculum or an examination.
> 
> Then again, that would probably suit the teachers union, they certainly hate the NAPLAN test.




The woke Left wing unions have taken over a Right wing government.

What a hoot.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 December 2022)

It is often said that  things that evolve in America today, will reach Australian shores in six months (or is it six years?).
Over the past few years, males have all but dissappeared from American Universities.
According to  American Greatness


> Zoom courses, a declining pool of students, and soaring costs all prompt the public to question the college experience altogether.
> Nationwide undergraduate enrollment has dropped by more than 650,000 students in a single year—or over 4 percent alone from spring 2021 to 2022, and some 14 percent in the last decade. Yet the U.S. population still increases by about 2 million people a year.
> 
> Men account for about 71 percent of the current shortfall of students.
> ...



I guess it could be argued that this is good and starts the reversal of years of gender bias.
The real problem though lies elsewhere within the system.
The bizarre growth in Admin will eventually strangle the Ivy league unis.


> At Yale University, administrative positions have soared over 150 percent in the last two decades. But the number of professors increased by just 10 percent. In a new low/high, Stanford recently enrolled 16,937 undergraduate and graduate students, but lists 15,750 administrative staff—in near one-to-one fashion.



if all those admin persons were replaced with teaching staff, you could have almost one on one teaching - gotta be a good outcome right?



> Skeptical American employers, to remain globally competitive, will likely soon administer their own hiring tests. They already suspect that prestigious university degrees are hollow and certify very little.
> Traditional colleges will seize the moment and expand by sticking to meritocratic criteria as proof of the competency of their prized graduates.
> Private and online venues will also fill a national need to teach Western civilization and humanities courses—by non-woke faculty who do not institutionalize bias.



So,  the relevance of the big universities will eventually diminish until their status is nit worth worrying over.
Mick


----------

