# Buying vs. Selling Volumes



## Ben10 (28 August 2008)

How do i find out on a daily basis the volumes of sales of a particular stock compared to purchases? I use Etrade and when i go to market depth > last 10 trades, i am unable to tell what is what?? Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Not sure what you mean. For every 1 share purchased there needs to be 1 share sold?


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## Ben10 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

What i want to know is how do i tell if more shares are being bought or sold throughout the day.


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## doogie_goes_off (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Ben10, methinks you are considerably confused, I am guessing you are looking at the 10 highest bids and 10 lowest offers that are currently in the market. These are not sales, you need to look at corse of sales to see what trades (1 purchase for one sale). Can someone help ben out with how to see this on e-trade. I suggest you do some serious research using the ASX site etc before you start buying and selling shares or you'll find out some very hard lessons. Hope this helps.


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## skyQuake (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

but it takes 2 parties to trade. 1 to buy and 1 to sell.


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Ben

Number of shares bought *MUST* = Number of shares Sold.


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## Timmy (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I think Ben may be looking for a separation of transactions that occur by sellers hitting the bid versus transactions that occur by buyers lifting the offer?

Just clarify your query a little if you can please Ben?


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Timmy if that is the case unless you have sophisticated Proprietary software you carn't for the ASX.


If it wasn't the case then,

A man walks into the Bottle shop and buys a slab of beer.

How many stubbies were purchased? 24 (by the man)
How many stubbies were sold? 24 (by the bottle shop)

Number bought *MUST* = Number sold.


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## Aussiest (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I think i get what you're saying Ben. You want to guage the number of people selling the stock (dumping it) vs. the number of people buying the stock (eager to have it). In other words, you want to see whether the stock is in demand or not (being _bought _vs. being _sold off_).

You can do this by looking at the daily candle chart in E*Trade. The red candles (usually black) indicate that the sellers are selling at the buyers nominated (bid) price (being sold off), whereas the green candles (usually white) suggest that buyers are stepping up to the mark and buying at the sellers 'ask' price, which means that the seller is in control.

Am i right? Can somebody confirm this for me? 




Green candles (usually white) indicate that the buyers were willing to pay what the seller was asking, therefore, the share was being more heavily _bought _during this time. This is a snippet of a daily chart.


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## tcoates (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Sounds like he wants to know -

* for a given parcel of shares.... the number of buyers who took up that parcel.

* whether there was one buyer, buying all the shares on offer.

How to do this. No idea.

Tim


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## doogie_goes_off (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Sorry Ben I just did not understand your question. Methinks you are going to find out if you provide clarification. There are always plenty of helpers on ASF.


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## Ben10 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Aussiest said:


> I think i get what you're saying Ben. You want to guage the number of people selling the stock (dumping it) vs. the number of people buying the stock (eager to have it). In other words, you want to see whether the stock is in demand or not (being _bought _vs. being _sold off_).
> 
> You can do this by looking at the daily candle chart in E*Trade. The red candles (usually black) indicate that the sellers are selling at the buyers nominated (bid) price (being sold off), whereas the green candles (usually white) suggest that buyers are stepping up to the mark and buying at the sellers 'ask' price, which means that the seller is in control.
> 
> ...




CORRECT!!! 

I am aware of candlesticks however these are displayed the next day after trading. I want to know if you can find out this information in real time? 

For example on Etrade in the 'Last 10 Trades' section, if i see, say 10,000,000 @ $0.40, can i ascertain whether this is 10,000,000 shares that have been bought or sold? 

Hope this is making sense, i am eating lunch at work while i type lol


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## Aussiest (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

The only way you can tell in real time would be to watch the order screen (market depth) and see the price action, eg, are the stocks being sold at the buyers designated price, or at the sellers designated price?

You could also do it if you had facilities for a daily, minute by minute chart, but it looks like E*Trades smallest time increment is 1 month. Correct me if i'm wrong?!

You may wanna try the ASX website, there may be a minute by minute charting facility there. Not sure though...

Actually, just had a look. They've only got daily charts as far as i could tell. Perhaps with a bit more searching, you could find something...


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Ben10 said:


> I am aware of candlesticks however these are displayed the next day after trading. I want to know if you can find out this information in real time?



Not true you can have live data down to sec periods for candle charts



Ben10 said:


> For example on Etrade in the 'Last 10 Trades' section, if i see, say 10,000,000 @ $0.40, can i ascertain whether this is 10,000,000 shares that have been bought or sold?



It doesn't really matter. As they were both bought by someone and sold by someone else. How are you going to take any info from that?

The only thing you can take from that is if the price was higher or lower from previous sales. thats what intraday charts are for. 1 transaction in isolation means nothing.


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## motorway (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

http://stocknessmonster.com/

Select trades ( not quote )

enter ticker eg BHP

Read the action trade by trade from the bottom

green + and red -

it is delayed though


motorway


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## Ben10 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Thanks for your help guys

So stoked i found ASF


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## Aussiest (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I just realised that Trembling Hand will probably come back and say "that's 10,000,000 shares that have been _bought _and _sold_"!

But, you wanna know whether the buyer or seller determined the price . I really just wanted an excuse to use that emoticon :


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## Aussiest (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> The only thing you can take from that is if the price was higher or lower from previous sales. thats what intraday charts are for. 1 transaction in isolation means nothing.




Yes, true. :


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## Ben10 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

^ hahaha


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## Wysiwyg (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Ben10 said:


> ^ hahaha




If you want real time data (course of trades, charts et cetera) then Etrade Pro has this real time.Cost is about $70/month and less if you trade stock.


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## skyQuake (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Aussiest said:


> I just realised that Trembling Hand will probably come back and say "that's 10,000,000 shares that have been _bought _and _sold_"!
> 
> But, you wanna know whether the buyer or seller determined the price . I really just wanted an excuse to use that emoticon :




Yep, so basically you want to know whether buyers are hitting the ask, or sellers are hitting the bid. They have it as TICK in the US but as far as I know, Aus doesnt have anything close, some prop might sell it but never have caught a hint of it.


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## Surly (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

An interesting question and something i try to work out when watching the last trades screen.

Is the buyer or the seller the offscreen party?

I look forward to any answers.

cheers
Surly


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## Greg71 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I have wondered about this also. If anybody knows what this means, please explain.







On the chart, BHP had an up day, yet is the leading "Sell". Anyone know how to interpret this?


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## Wysiwyg (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



skyQuake said:


> Yep, so basically you want to know whether buyers are hitting the ask, or sellers are hitting the bid.




With a live `course of trades` it can be seen whether the bid is hit or the ask is hit but I don`t know how to work out if the days action was bearish, neutral or bullish, apart from a chart candle, OHLC etc.

I don`t know of any platform that indicates whether each specific trade was a buy or a sell.They just indicate the transaction (s) took place.


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Greg71 said:


> I have wondered about this also. If anybody knows what this means, please explain.




I know nothing much about Commsuc but is that just stats on Commsucs transaction? Not the overall market.


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## MRC & Co (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Wysiwyg said:


> With a live `course of trades` it can be seen whether the bid is hit or the ask is hit but I don`t know how to work out if the days action was bearish, neutral or bullish, apart from a chart candle, OHLC etc.
> 
> I don`t know of any platform that indicates whether each specific trade was a buy or a sell.They just indicate the transaction (s) took place.




VSA will show you a similar picture which you can use EOD.

Volume, spread (also known as range of the bar), and close.  Add in gaps and where abouts the bar is in context of the chart.  Approaching resistance or support?  How much effort (how much volume hit the market and how large was the spread?), and what was the outcome (where did it close?).  If you get a lot of effort with a good outcome (can also be a gap) over resistance or support then you are looking good.  If volume was extreme, watch out for the gap turning out to be an exhaustion gap and professional money distributing into that quick buying foray by the retailers.  Large marbuzos etc can also see the same outcome. This is where it is important to see price get on with it, or at least form a consolidation pattern with decreasing volume on or above the support or resistance line.  

IB shows whether the bid or ask was hit on equities.  Just like it does with futures.


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## JackJackJack (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

The demand index - as found in Metastock and probably quite a few other charting programs.


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## Greg71 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> I know nothing much about Commsuc but is that just stats on Commsucs transaction? Not the overall market.




When I log into my account, that is on display. It's nothing to do with my portfolio, just a general info. thing. 

I don't get it, how can a stock be a higher sell? What puts it into the sell column as opposed to being in the buy column?


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## Panacea (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Greg71 said:


> I don't get it, how can a stock be a higher sell? What puts it into the sell column as opposed to being in the buy column?




Newbie guess...

Hypothetically, there are 10 sellers each selling 10 shares. A buyer places an order for 100 shares. The stock has been sold 10 times and bought once. IE, a greater number of 'sells' than 'buys'.


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## MRC & Co (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



MRC & Co said:


> on or above the support or resistance line.




This should be on or infront not above.  Above for resistance (looking for longs), below for support (looking for shorts).


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## Trembling Hand (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

It says "Comsucs most popular stocks"

Its just commsucs transactions. Has nothing to do with the overall market. It just means that a lot of Comsucs customers have sold today


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## nomore4s (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Greg71 said:


> When I log into my account, that is on display. It's nothing to do with my portfolio, just a general info. thing.
> 
> I don't get it, how can a stock be a higher sell? What puts it into the sell column as opposed to being in the buy column?




Greg71,

This is purely commsucs stats.

Meaning more of commsecs customers where selling BHP but not buying them. Obviously the buyers were comming from different brokers.

A pretty useless lot of stats imo, who really cares what commsec customers are buying or selling as they are only part of the market.

lol, TH beat me to it.


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## Greg71 (28 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

That makes sense.

Thanks.


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## skyQuake (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



nomore4s said:


> Greg71,
> 
> A pretty useless lot of stats imo, who really cares what commsec customers are buying or selling as they are only part of the market.




Oh I dont know about that... Commsuc is pretty much pure retail crowd, taking an opposite view may yield some good results


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## tech/a (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Lets look a bit closer at buy sell volume
How can we tell if high volume is buying OR selling?

Believe it or not its pretty easy!


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## fimmwolf (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I would say that is sellers volume as there's nothing on the chart to indicate a reversal


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## fimmwolf (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

I guess it could also be people shorting the stock as well (is that technically buying ??)

Either way, wether they are buying short positions or panic selling long positions, the result is the same.


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## tech/a (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



fimmwolf said:


> I would say that is sellers volume as there's nothing on the chart to indicate a reversal





So then your saying people are selling the stock in this high volume bar.

Is the bar then a sign of strength or weakness


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## fimmwolf (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

hmm......shorter range on the last bar. Maybe the down-trend momentum is dying  

Still closed lower though


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## Trembling Hand (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Tech what is the date for that large volume day?? 

Very important you are not confusing shifting of the furniture for a thunder storm.......


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## BradK (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Ben10 said:


> ^ hahaha




Hey... off topic alert! How did you get away with less than one hundred charactres???????????


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## tech/a (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

TH

I know what your getting at.
It wasnt the last Thursday of the month.

Ive not posted the price or dates in the hope that some smartie like myself doesnt search for the stock and cheat!---thats what Id do!

100 characters

This post isnt in the individual stock section.


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## MichaelD (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

You can easily tell if the bid or ask are being hit by simultaneously watching live market depth and course of sales. Turning that information into a positive expectancy trading system - now THAT'S the important question.

As for CommSec's most popular stocks list - I personally find this list invaluable. Almost all of the time, I'm buying what other CommSec clients are selling and vice versa. That makes me feel happy (and makes me profitable). When I'm going the SAME way - that makes me feel uneasy.


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## fimmwolf (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



> You can easily tell if the bid or ask are being hit by simultaneously watching live market depth and course of sales.




Yes, but what can we tell using only the chart provided by tech/a  ??


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## Trembling Hand (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



tech/a said:


> I know what your getting at.
> It wasnt the last Thursday of the month.




I just like to try and prove signals wrong before I take them as being right.


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## MichaelD (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



fimmwolf said:


> Yes, but what can we tell using only the chart provided by tech/a  ??




A very, very deep question indeed, far deeper than the mere specifics of the question.

What does a chart show? What can a chart show? What can't a chart show? What can't a chart do?

But I defer a direct answer to those that have greater chart reading expertise than I aspire to.

(I'm very nihilistic today - been reading some of Ed Seykota's work).


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## Kauri (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

one periods action on  its own shows me... be interested.. nothing more.. nothing less...

  it is the following days that prove/ disprove the initial action... mind you I am not looking to capture all of the trend.. the middle will make me ..whatever...

  Everyone trades their own trades in their own way for...aaaaaahh...  now where is that tread of JULIAS  on halcolism...

Slainte
............Kauri


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## MRC & Co (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



fimmwolf said:


> I would say that is sellers volume as there's nothing on the chart to indicate a reversal




Island reversal perhaps.

Trend looks up, hasn't intersected the most recent pivot high yet.  

Sellers tried to close that gap, buyers absorbed them and the bar closed in the higher portion.  I would prefer if that bar did close the gap though and the gap down bar had some more volume, it was pathetic.  No clear indication here for me, but I would want that gap to close soon or for prices to get on with it and proove an island reversal.  

Perhaps post some live charts tech so then I can proove myself wrong 3 times in real-time.  

No idea the outcome of this chart though.


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## brty (31 August 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Hi I'll play,

Buyers and sellers came out to play, short term trend was down, longer trend up. There was enough buying strength to accommodate all the sellers in a narrower range than the previous day, with the close in the top third of the range.

Market bullish for mine.

brty


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## brty (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Hi,

Tech, it is just furniture shifting after a bit of detective work.

Friday after option expiry, WPL May 08.

brty


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## tech/a (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



brty said:


> Hi,
> 
> Tech, it is just furniture shifting after a bit of detective work.
> 
> ...




Clever brty.

Was the Friday NOT the day of expiry.
Now the chart has been exposed no point in continuing the other examples in it.

Anyway if you have a look at enough charts you'll pick it up.

All this watching wether bids or asks are hit------


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



tech/a said:


> Was the Friday NOT the day of expiry.
> Now the chart has been exposed no point in continuing the other examples in it.
> 
> Anyway if you have a look at enough charts you'll pick it up.
> ...




Sorry tech have not yet got your point. Was this not options expiry.


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## brty (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Tech,

A lot of the shenannigans associated with options expiry happen on the Friday.

I'll give you an example.

Back in the early '90's I made a terrible mistake in closing out an options position. Instead of selling 4 calls on BHP, I bought 4 more about 2 weeks before expiry. At the time I had many long and short option positions, I didn't check the contract note that was sent.

I was long 8 BHP contract at expiry, all in the money. I did not realise this error until after the market closed on the Thursday. Even though my account balance was not large enough to pay for the $120k trade I worked out a deal with my broker to have those shares assigned to me, and traded out of the position the following day.

That volume of trading occurred on the Friday, very much to do with option expiry.
I'm not currently trading options, so am not 100% up with the latest rules there, but assume many participants that are assigned shares after the close of trade upon option expiry will trade out of those positions the following day.

brty


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## tech/a (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Was under the impression expiry was the Thursday.
Stand corrected if it was the Friday.

Agree with you both with regard to expiry.

I will find other examples.
There are 1000s.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

It is on Thursday but most of the transactions happen after the market is closed. So the Brokers report them before the market opens Friday. That is why the Volume shows up on Friday.


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## Timmy (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

There are a few softwares that will display the bids being given or the offers being paid.  This is subject, of course, to your data input allowing the software to do so and even the data provided by the exchange allowing your software to do so.  End of day data, for instance, doesn't show this info (AFAIK) so it wont matter what software you use, it isn't there to display.

What software will do this?
Ensign
Investor R/T
Market Delta
are 3 that come to mind, but there are more.  The ones I am familiar with come out of the US, nothing local that I know of (I hope to be shown to be wrong on this).

Investor R/T is the one I am most familiar with, some discussion of it here.

Whether the bid/ask info is of any value to you is another debate.


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## kam75 (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Ben10 said:


> How do i find out on a daily basis the volumes of sales of a particular stock compared to purchases? I use Etrade and when i go to market depth > last 10 trades, i am unable to tell what is what?? Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated




What you want to use is the On Balance Volume (OBV) indicator.
It will let you determine whether its buying pressure (buyers in control) or selling pressure (sellers in control) of the stock price at the time.  You can use OBV on any time frame, even intraday.  Go to Etrade click on interactive chart and display OBV for the timeframe you're interested in.  Use the intraday chart with OBV to gauge buying or selling pressure for the last 10 trades were.  Easy Peezy.

Regards
kam75
_____________________________
http://www.sharesmadeeasy.com


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## Timmy (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



kam75 said:


> What you want to use is the On Balance Volume (OBV) indicator.




The OBV indicator is going to give an approximation only, due to the assumptions upon which the calculation of the OBV indicator is based.

This is from Steven Achelis' book _Technical Analysis from A to Z_, available free on-line at 
http://www.equis.com/Customer/Resources/TAAZ/?c=3&p=82

"When the security closes higher than the previous close, all of the day's volume is considered up-volume. When the security closes lower than the previous close, all of the day's volume is considered down-volume."

So, individual deals are not assessed to ascertain whether it was the offer paid or the bid given on each deal, rather the assumptions referred to in the above quote are applied.


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## MichaelD (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Hmmm

"OBV is calculated by adding the day's volume to a running cumulative total when the security's price closes up, and subtracts the volume when it closes down. 

For example, if today the closing price is greater than yesterday's closing price, then the new 

OBV = Yesterday's OBV + Today's Volume

If today the closing price is less than yesterday's closing price, then the new 

OBV = Yesterday's OBV - Today's Volume

If today the closing price is equal to yesterday's closing price, then the new 

OBV = Yesterday's OBV"

(from stockcharts.com)

So, if the PRICE goes up, the OBV goes up. If the PRICE goes down, the OBV goes down, and if the volume is large, it goes up/down more.


Doesn't seem to add any new information to the picture.

(aka just another lagging indicator)


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## cuttlefish (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> It is on Thursday but most of the transactions happen after the market is closed. So the Brokers report them before the market opens Friday. That is why the Volume shows up on Friday.





This is correct as TH has said. Options trading goes till 4:20 p.m. and assignment can occur later as I understand it (up till 7pm?).  Assigned stock for put writers appears in their account the next day, for naked call writers that are assigned they can purchase for delivery on the following day without incurring late settlement penalty (t+4).  So there would also be a lot of options related trade the day after expiry.


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## nomore4s (1 September 2008)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Kauri said:


> *mind you I am not looking to capture all of the trend.. the middle will make me ..whatever...*




Wise words that most traders fail to understand imo


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## LostInTransit (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> Timmy if that is the case unless you have sophisticated Proprietary software you carn't for the ASX.
> 
> 
> If it wasn't the case then,
> ...




I have heard the term 'there are more buyers then sellers'. How's that fit in to your equation?  

And can you give me example of 'there are more buyers then sellers' when this can occur?


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## Timmy (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



LostInTransit said:


> I have heard the term 'there are more buyers then sellers'.




There certainly can be more buyers than sellers (but not more shares bought than sold).  In my experience that line is a bit of a throwaway line, meaningless.


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## nunthewiser (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

i think he talking about market depths and what "appears " to be more buyers to sellers .........

easy to manipulate market depths if one feels so inclined on low cap stocks 

market depths mean squat in my view UNLESS on the top lines , and even then they only a rough guide as most of the frantic actions comes from left field and not in the depths at all

only my opinion


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



LostInTransit said:


> I have heard the term 'there are more buyers then sellers'. How's that fit in to your equation?
> 
> And can you give me example of 'there are more buyers then sellers' when this can occur?




Go back to my apple example from the other thread. 1 farmer sells 100 apples to 100 buyers who bought 1 apple each.

So only 1 seller and 100 buyers but still number of XYZ sold = XYZ bought.


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

If you are referring to market depth screen I have attached a screen shot of BHP.

what it is is a look a the current orders sitting in the market. As you can see at that instant there was more orders for shares to sell (40,920) in the 5 price levels above the last trade than there was buy (25,723) orders below the last trade. But that means nothing.


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## motorway (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> Go back to my apple example from the other thread. 1 farmer sells 100 apples to 100 buyers who bought 1 apple each.
> 
> So only 1 seller and 100 buyers but still number of XYZ sold = XYZ bought.




But then there will still another 100 buyers
who urgently wanted apples too

This farmer had sold all his apples

But

They were willing to pay a higher price
such that a farmer from interstate shipped his apples over

and this lot of apples sold at a much higher price compared to the first lot

So price in the end reveals
a  lot of things about the volume --->about the buyers and sellers

All volume is a buy and sell
price movement tells you which was absorbed



Key --->always look for absorption


motorway


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## tech/a (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



nunthewiser said:


> market depths mean squat in my view UNLESS on the top lines , and even then they only a rough guide as most of the frantic actions comes from left field and not in the depths at all
> 
> only my opinion




Most sence Ive seen you make.

M/W just makes sence.


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## skyQuake (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



motorway said:


> All volume is a buy and sell
> price movement tells you which was absorbed
> 
> 
> ...




Care to elaborate on the absorption bit? ta


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## Timmy (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Tech - no fighting pls.


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## Timmy (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



skyQuake said:


> Care to elaborate on the absorption bit? ta




Yes please Motorway?


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## nunthewiser (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

removed last post as bored with the drama


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



nunthewiser said:


> market depths mean squat in my view UNLESS on the top lines , and even then they only a rough guide as most of the frantic actions comes from left field and not in the depths at all
> 
> only my opinion




Of course lots to counter that. Just not in retail land. 

Tech will never agree but if he cannot do it its not possible.


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## nunthewiser (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> Of course lots to counter that. Just not in retail land.
> 
> Tech will never agree but if he cannot to it its not possible.





yep ..... the old days of the "u boat " parked either side of the depths doing the shuffle have kind of fallen by the wayside ....... still see on occasion the odd mighty big players parking either side and pushing it where they want but not as often as in the past 

on the last bit i make no comment


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



nunthewiser said:


> yep ..... the old days of the "u boat " parked either side of the depths doing the shuffle have kind of fallen by the wayside ....... still see on occasion the odd mighty big players parking either side and pushing it where they want but not as often as in the past




I forget the exact figures but more than 50% of the worlds futs are executed through a price ladder like the one I have above. Why? because it provides an edge.

Most high frequency futs traders spend 90% of their time looking at a DOM? Why? Because they see patterns develop that most retail punters hope to see in a chart *after *it occurs.

I tried to show something of that edge in my scalping thread and of course someone came up with the "slight expectancy" line. If someone could show me a good expectancy where the average loss was a fraction higher than the cost of brokerage I would be very interested. 

until then the no edge in DOM = I cannot so no one can.


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## nunthewiser (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> I forget the exact figures but more than 50% of the worlds futs are executed through a price ladder like the one I have above. Why? because it provides an edge.
> 
> Most high frequency futs traders spend 90% of their time looking at a DOM? Why? Because they see patterns develop that most retail punters hope to see in a chart *after *it occurs.
> 
> ...




i do not trade futures so cannot comment ...... definately not disagreeing with what you saying 

merely pointing out my observations on my trading and watching of various ASX listed stocks 

have seen your threads and DOM useage and yes can see how it works for you and those that CAN read it


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## skyQuake (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> I forget the exact figures but more than 50% of the worlds futs are executed through a price ladder like the one I have above. Why? because it provides an edge.
> 
> Most high frequency futs traders spend 90% of their time looking at a DOM? Why? Because they see patterns develop that most retail punters hope to see in a chart *after *it occurs.




How about the algos? Would have thought algos don't use price ladder to execute. 



> I tried to show something of that edge in my scalping thread and of course someone came up with the "slight expectancy" line. If someone could show me a good expectancy where the average loss was a fraction higher than the cost of brokerage I would be very interested.
> 
> until then the no edge in DOM = I cannot so no one can.




Do you mean an edge in scalping with charts??


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## tech/a (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> I forget the exact figures but more than 50% of the worlds futs are executed through a price ladder like the one I have above. Why? because it provides an edge.
> 
> Most high frequency futs traders spend 90% of their time looking at a DOM? Why? Because they see patterns develop that most retail punters hope to see in a chart *after *it occurs.
> 
> ...




So 
Explain this.
90% trade by looking at DOM
That means 90% of trades dont appear in DOM
They just fly in from Cyberspace.
If 90% of volume comes outside of DOM
how then can you explain an edge.

Your not placing your order in DOM
The large traders if they did place their orders in DOM wouldnt be telegraphing their intention.

Sure there are successful traders scalping but there are many many disasters as well.

I'm not against it just not into Psycho Trading.


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



skyQuake said:


> How about the algos? Would have thought algos don't use price ladder to execute.



Sorry that should of said discretionary trades.


skyQuake said:


> Do you mean an edge in scalping with charts??



No sorry poorly worded. I meant if there was no edge how would you explain the size of the loss being not much more than the cost of brokerage. So I would love to see the average loss of a large expectancy system, losses would be winners


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



tech/a said:


> So
> Explain this.
> 90% trade by looking at DOM
> That means 90% of trades dont appear in DOM
> ...




Two things Tech. Where the fark did you get 90% from. 

And this is the big one to get into your Muppet brain again!!

Who said that those that can get an edge from DOM take it from the crap thats sitting in it?? Get this in your brain now. For any 1 transaction to occur 50% has to be sitting in the DOM and *the OTHER 50% has to hit whats already in the DOM.* Its the later that scalpers read.

Just like any sentiment it has a used by date.


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## skyQuake (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



tech/a said:


> So
> Explain this.
> 90% trade by looking at DOM
> That means 90% of trades dont appear in DOM
> ...




Theres also arb bots and spoofers who will sit in the depth. Also, a lot of scalpers place exits in the market but enter from cyberspace..
Just look at how thin SPI is 



> Your not placing your order in DOM
> The large traders if they did place their orders in DOM wouldnt be telegraphing their intention.
> 
> Sure there are successful traders scalping but there are many many disasters as well.
> ...




They spoof and hit spoofs  and occassionally, fill insto orders too!


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## tech/a (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Yeh got it.
Always have.
Your reading increases in buy sell volume as it hits market you just get in the right side early enough to buy and sell size in a few ticks.

Volatility scalpers paradise.
Flat scalpers death.


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



tech/a said:


> Yeh got it.
> Always have.
> Your reading increases in buy sell volume as it hits market you just get in the right side early enough to buy and sell size in a few ticks.




Or my number 1 top hit on the HSI wait for the 15 -20 tick push up and then stand in front of it. Snap back. let the panic players pay you 15 - 20 tick profit. Thats a 10 sec trade max.

You cannot feel that looking at a chart as you cannot see who is hitting who. Not enough detail.


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## Broadway (2 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*



Trembling Hand said:


> Or my number 1 top hit on the HSI wait for the 15 -20 tick push up and then stand in front of it. Snap back. let the panic players pay you 15 - 20 tick profit. Thats a 10 sec trade max.
> 
> You cannot feel that looking at a chart as you cannot see who is hitting who. Not enough detail.




Must be scary when it absorbs your contracts and then just keeps going against you. I guess you dont worry too much because you get more winners than losers. Your stop is about 10 ticks on this play?

btw, I agree we head up in the next 24-48hrs, tonnes of volume support in ES and europe. How often do you get a bullish night after a straight up kospi day? I was pissed that the spi didnt ride the kospi wave today, great gdp number and it acts like it was thrown a poisoned bone. Spat it right out.
:angry:


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## Tradesurfer (10 September 2009)

*Re: Buying vs Selling Volumes*

Something I think thats somewhat simple but should be added to this thread especially because it is located in the beginner lounge.

"More buyers than sellers"

"Volume of 100 means that a buyer and seller exchanged 100 shares"

"Buyers and sellers have to be equal"

In reverse order #3, and #2- that is correct.

#1 is also correct and why stocks move up or down in the simplest form. But with an explanation.

Someone mentioned that if 100 apples were sold at a farm and the farmer was the seller, then whoever bought them would be the buyer.

There are two parties period. If No One wants to buy, no sale even though in theory the farmer has already placed a limit order to sell his apples.

But the variable with trading is that market makers or specialist put up their own capital and are a 3rd person in the room sort of speak.

So if the person walks into the farm and wants to buy apples but the farmer declines, the market maker would step in and take the other side.

The market makers and specialist set the price largely based on supply and demand. In other words, they try and find a price where buyers and sellers will want to meet and trade.

So in the "more buyers than sellers" comment- yes you can have more buyers than sellers where traders, funds, whoever want to buy but no one is selling, the 3rd party steps in to take the other side of the trade. Since no one is selling and they are taking the risk, they will raise prices to whatever level in order for buyers and sellers to meet again.

Don't want to turn this comment into a debate about market makers etc- but since this is in the beginners lounge wanted to make that distinction. 

Hope that helps a bit. Rather than give a complex exchange process description tried to keep it simple


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