# A Bad Trader



## aBadTrader (2 August 2014)

hi all - I just registered today to the forum. As my name indicates, I am a bad trader. The only success I have found is in buy and selling retail products. I love it, actually. But back in 2012, I tried my hand in shares and CFD's.

When I began, I had delusions of grandeur - setting up stops so short you would have to kneel down to pat its head, and limits so long that the best bionic eye could not catch a glimpse of, and in turn lost money. The money I lost, was insignificant - however, that did not stop me. Learning a lesson, I came back with a vengeance, with some new information, and then lost again.

Repeated this cycle about 10 times, before I gave up and went back to the only investing I know - buying retail products, and retailing them. Currently I am in the process of building a retail store online because my initial industry is on a downturn and I need something to fall into. But I still could not get the fact that I had failed so utterly miserable on trading indexes.

So, I've opened up another play money account with IG, and am trying to learn the ropes.

So many of you here are just fantastic and carry so much knowledge up there in your noodles - where can I go to learn these skills. I have come to the realization long ago that this game is not something to earn big bucks really fast and is not a "get rich quick" scheme that so many others perceive it to be.

Thank you for your time


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## burglar (2 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> ... So many of you here are just fantastic and carry so much knowledge up there in your noodles - where can I go to learn these skills ...




Hi aBadTrader,
Welcome to ASF!

Why not here?


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## CanOz (2 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> where can I go to learn these skills.




www.propex.net.au


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## DJG (2 August 2014)

I assume your "play money" account is real money. Thought about a demo account?

If you don't mind me asking, what is your retail store?


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## aBadTrader (2 August 2014)

DJG said:


> I assume your "play money" account is real money. Thought about a demo account?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what is your retail store?




Thank you for the welcome! Much appreciated  I am already a lurker, merely now a registered one with an empty portfolio.

Oh, when I say "play money" I do mean a Demo Account - hance why I opened "another", they are only valid for, I'm sure it's 30 days or something, or is it a fortnight, I can't remember.

I'm tinkering with support and resistance and only trying to take a few ticks rather than my old style of greedy "see where it goes". I'm also taking advice of some forum members who say that if a trade turns back on you, don't hold onto it, breaking even is better than losing.

So much to learn. But you know there is one thing that I can't bring myself to do and that is to set a stop at a price that is relevant to movement rather than my emotion. Stops are one thing that have hurt me severely in the past.

Oh and I shall be checking that website ASAP. Cheers for the replies 

If you don't mind, Dangaff, I'd like to keep that to myself for now. Not because there is anything shady about it but I'm generally a very private person by nature


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## pixel (4 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> hi all - I just registered today to the forum. As my name indicates, I am a bad trader. The only success I have found is in buy and selling retail products. I love it, actually. But back in 2012, I tried my hand in shares and CFD's.
> 
> When I began, I had delusions of grandeur - setting up stops so short you would have to kneel down to pat its head, and limits so long that the best bionic eye could not catch a glimpse of, and in turn lost money. The money I lost, was insignificant - however, that did not stop me. Learning a lesson, I came back with a vengeance, with some new information, and then lost again.
> 
> ...



Welcome BT, and congrats on plucking up the courage to ask questions and aspiring to become "a Better Trader".

First though, let me start my answer with a counter question: What were the lessons you've been learning? When you say you came back with a vengeance ... what was it that made you believe your learning enabled you to try again ... TEN times?

I gather you must know quite a lot about buying and selling retail goods. Have you analysed the recipe for success in that endeavour? Could it be that you - even if only subconsciously - know what your customers are after, and then find a source where to buy those goods in bulk at a lower price than your retail customers are prepared to pay?
If your answer is Yes: You have the solution. There is no difference to share trading! Find a stock that others are (or soon will be) willing to buy; then see if you can buy it at a low enough price for a profit.

Just as with retail trading, you won't succeed 100% of the time. Otherwise, there won't be any end-of-year or stocktake sales, where duds and leftovers get flogged to the public.
So you'll have to give a stock picking/ trading method time to prove its statistical effectiveness, Ten stops and restarts within what? a year? 18 months? That's definitely not enough. From personal experience, I would suggest paper-trading for at least 3 months, better six, before the true merit (or otherwise) of a methodology becomes apparent. And you may have noticed that, until now, I haven't even mentioned a word of Technical vs Fundamental analysis. Because as long as your method is sound and you apply it consistently, both approaches can provide *on average* a positive expectancy, meaning the resultant method leads you to more profitable trades than stopped-out losses.

Two main reasons why I chose Technical Analysis: 
1. T/A makes it easier to automatically "backtest" a system, evaluating how an algorithm would have performed over a period in history; that way, your months of paper-trading can be multiplied many times without costing you a cent, by simulating the system over as many years as you can get data history.
2. I'm far more technically-minded and find studying financial reports a drag. (I can also write my own algorithms and test programs, which helps...)

One thing I'm wary of and won't make a part of my selection process: I don't rely on reports, broker valuations, crib sheets, or subscribe to newsletters that promise to highlight the next Big Thing. 
Correction: I do take notice of some "recommendations" - but I use them as warning flags that tell me when it's better to get off a hyped-up rally sooner rather than too late.
(I don't chase Holy Grails either, i.e. I don't follow every new method that promises even higher returns: "Simply sign up at $xxxxx, and we'll help you make an average of 34% or 67% or whatever ..." The honest truth is that those offers are only benefiting the sellers, not the students. Special case of retail trading: Create a demand for a product that costs little or nothing to produce, then persuade customers to pay a high price.)


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## aBadTrader (4 August 2014)

pixel said:


> Welcome BT, and congrats on plucking up the courage to ask questions and aspiring to become "a Better Trader".
> 
> First though, let me start my answer with a counter question: What were the lessons you've been learning? When you say you came back with a vengeance ... what was it that made you believe your learning enabled you to try again ... TEN times?
> 
> ...




Thanks so much for taking the time to write that post - I'll do my best to have a crack at it.

At the time I came back with a vengence, I hadn't learned a thing, hence why I lost. I came back trying to predict spontaneous moves based on market reports, then fell into the trap of "it was short term, but I'll make it long term now", purely to make myself feel better. BAD attitude.

I don't know what my customers want - I just "try" to find niche products in industries that are consistent. At this time I am a wholesaler and my new retail venture is going smoothly but slowly. I'm not a guru - but your post and question certainly motivates me!

So far I am just learning T/A for trading index's. At the moment, as mentioned just support and resistance. I believe that breaks above or below a certain price point indicates excess pressure to buy/sell which could yield a small profit.

But hey, I'm still learning  Once I am comfortable to move onto the next lesson, I shall, but for now, I need to get a handle on this one 

This is NOT easy


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## pixel (5 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> Thanks so much for taking the time to write that post - I'll do my best to have a crack at it.
> 
> At the time I came back with a vengence, I hadn't learned a thing, hence why I lost. I came back trying to *predict* spontaneous moves based on market reports, then fell into the trap of "it was short term, but I'll make it long term now", purely to make myself feel better. BAD attitude.
> 
> ...




Hey BT,

Let me pick two highlighted items in your latest:
1. Whenever I see the word "predict", I suspect the writer still has to "get it". Trade planning is not about "predicting" the next move, but *assessing the relative odds* of three different outcomes: Is it more likely for the sp to rise? fall? or move sideways? Most of it is pure guesswork based on experience - either from the study of general chart behaviour - study candlesticks, patterns, volume, ... - or more complex indicators/ signals. But even if the odds favour, say, a bounce off an inverted Hammer at the bottom of a decline, we cannot predict that it will happen, but only make a decision at this time based on the 3:1 likelihood. If it turns out that, this time, the sp follows a less-likely course, *we must have a Plan B* - which usually means abort the trade and stop further losses. What if we stopped out too early? As a wise man once said, "I'd rather be out of the Market, trying to get in, than in the Market, desperate to get out."

2. Don't believe for a second anyone that tries to tell you trading profitably is easy. Trading is a trade. You don't become a good plumber by attending a $10,000 2-night seminar on plumbing. Nor do you become a good electrician by buying 5 CDs for $995 and listening to some news reader mouthing platitudes. All three take dedication and an apprenticeship of several years' duration. 
... and an ongoing learning process to stay abreast of new developments that help avoid emerging hazards.

But it's a challenge that many people find stimulating. and a few lucky ones even make a living from it.


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

You need to do alot of critical thinking. Once you know the basics, you follow the simple do's and dont's. You have to figure out what you did wrong and really understand why it was not the right thing to do. By really UNDERSTANDING it means that you are smart enough not to make that same mistake twice. After a while you will realise what trades/setups/trading style you have the most success in. 

Dont beat yourself up.like any art it takes a long time to get good at. Just dont go blowing all your cash away. You are at your worste when you first begin, there for its logical to play smaller to lose less haha.

GL man. Oh yeah and one personal advice from a noob. Dont be impulsive. Wait for the perfect setup like your life depends on it. Maybe it might take months or a year but so what.


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## tech/a (5 August 2014)

> Oh yeah and one personal advice from a noob. Dont be impulsive.*Wait for the perfect setup *like your life depends on it. Maybe it might take months or a year but so what




There are better setups.
But Id like to put your observation in 
another way.

Wait until the chart is screaming at you---go long OR go short.
Don't predict but *anticipate*.
If your analysis is NOT validated don't hang around.
Validation in my view must be immediate.

*Get used to being wrong you'll be wrong often.*

Learn to make decisions often. *DONT WAIT MONTHS OR YEARS!*

A setup on a 3 min chart isn't going to govern the price action for the next
5 days (well it might on very rare occasions).
A Daily chart is best used for background when using smaller timeframe charts.


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

pixel said:


> Hey BT,
> 
> Let me pick two highlighted items in your latest:
> 1. Whenever I see the word "predict", I suspect the writer still has to "get it". Trade planning is not about "predicting" the next move, but *assessing the relative odds* of three different outcomes: Is it more likely for the sp to rise? fall? or move sideways? Most of it is pure guesswork based on experience - either from the study of general chart behaviour - study candlesticks, patterns, volume, ... - or more complex indicators/ signals. But even if the odds favour, say, a bounce off an inverted Hammer at the bottom of a decline, we cannot predict that it will happen, but only make a decision at this time based on the 3:1 likelihood. If it turns out that, this time, the sp follows a less-likely course, *we must have a Plan B* - which usually means abort the trade and stop further losses. What if we stopped out too early? As a wise man once said, "I'd rather be out of the Market, trying to get in, than in the Market, desperate to get out."
> ...




This is all wonderful advice and sorry I have not learned to Multi-Quote, or rather don't have the time for it (lol, i know) but this post is in regards to all replies.

Point well taken - I used the term "predict" loosely. I am not trying to predict as much as I am trying to anticipate moves of the market based on my strategy. Currently after 3 days of trading I am up a very tiny amount, copped some heavy losses and got those losses back.

In my losses I try to analyze where I went wrong - why my entry point did not work, and I learned from my mistakes, but let me assure you those mistakes can and will happen again, which I combat with cutting losses short.

I am purely reading candle sticks, support and resistance; that's all. I don't use any indicators, they have burnt me in the past and all the YT videos I watched, especially on stochastics, have proven to add little value to a trading strategy.

I back test my theory in the most crude fashion - by using a random index chart scrolled back to a random position and scroll right tick by tick looking for an entry and then scroll right again tick by tick to see how I fare. So far this is the method that is getting me more wins than losses or an even amount on both sides.

This is NOT easy, but my God, do I ever get a kick out of it.

I envy you traders who trade solely for a living. Just the mere thought of making a correct anticipation with your edge, and cashing in from it in the comfort of your own home (yet discomfort of your racing mind ) is indeed such a gratifying and surreal feeling that I just cannot get enough of.

Thank you all for your input, it really does help and though you have no obligation to place your input I appreciate wholeheartedly the time you all have taken to educate this bad trader.

cheers


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

Yeah like tech/a said, when the charts screaming at you. If you have doubts then imo its going to go wrong haha.


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Yeah like tech/a said, when the charts screaming at you. If you have doubts then imo its going to go wrong haha.




Depends on your personality I guess - I always have doubts. Doubts fuel my theories on where to cut losses. Doubts, though, keep me away from some hefty profits ie. last nights DOW futures, but eventually managed to catch a wave after I saw a buy signal and my working orders opened.

Then I went to bed, to find my theory was more than ample, as I missed out on 40 points. Sleep - it is our enemy!


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## pinkboy (5 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> GL man. Oh yeah and one personal advice from a noob. Dont be impulsive. Wait for the perfect setup like your life depends on it. Maybe it might take months or a year but so what.




Dont give 'personal advice' if you yourself don't have the background to warrant as such.  Even from 'a noob'!


pinkboy


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

pinkboy said:


> Dont give 'personal advice' if you yourself don't have the background to warrant as such.  Even from 'a noob'!
> 
> 
> pinkboy




Oh come on Pink it's just a lesson from his experience - he most likely is already further than I am education wise and I appreciate the input. But I see where you're coming from  Always nice to see the experienced fellows looking out for the newbie


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

Abadtrader what im trying to say is that if youve done enough research and put enough homework in your mind is at ease. If youve thought of all the possible moves it might take. Hence at every acrion the price takes you habe a general idea of what is going on. On the other hand if youve done 1hr of looking at a chart amd have only thought of a few what of scenarios etc then you or I find it personally more of an anxious wait. However when you are very confident and have went over your projections a hundred timez in your head you find flaws or you become more certain of your choice.

Pinkboy what are ypu on about.  Its my personal experiemce from one year of paper trading. I treat it as serious or try to as the real deal. I didnt tell him what to do. Just what to avoid. And in reality its a common sense thing. Im not telling him some speculative idea. Its a shared consensus among every one I presume. Do your homework and if you have doubts then its your subconsious guilt telling you, you havent done enough to be sure. Peace out


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Abadtrader what im trying to say is that if youve done enough research and put enough homework in your mind is at ease. If youve thought of all the possible moves it might take. Hence at every acrion the price takes you habe a general idea of what is going on. On the other hand if youve done 1hr of looking at a chart amd have only thought of a few what of scenarios etc then you or I find it personally more of an anxious wait. However when you are very confident and have went over your projections a hundred timez in your head you find flaws or you become more certain of your choice.
> 
> Pinkboy what are ypu on about.  Its my personal experiemce from one year of paper trading. I treat it as serious or try to as the real deal. I didnt tell him what to do. Just what to avoid. And in reality its a common sense thing. Im not telling him some speculative idea. Its a shared consensus among every one I presume. Do your homework and if you have doubts then its your subconsious guilt telling you, you havent done enough to be sure. Peace out




Totally agree with you there Horsie - and indeed it is advice from a safety point of view and I respect that.

I too also treat my paper trades as real. I try to go one better and try to mimic what my reaction might be to a particular price. As mentioned above, what I might do for the day when testing out a new strategy is take a random index chart and then scroll to a random point and tick the candles one by one, making entries into the market and seeing how it all pans out. I take note on paper (excel) the times I've won, lost and broken even, trying to minimize loss amounts and take relatively profitable win amounts.

But still a long way to go - and I'm enjoying myself considerably in the process


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## Julia (5 August 2014)

pinkboy said:


> Dont give 'personal advice' if you yourself don't have the background to warrant as such.  Even from 'a noob'!
> inkboy




dh, when you say stuff like 







> Wait for the perfect setup like your life depends on it. Maybe it might take months or a year but so what.



from a position of zero real experience, seems to me pinkboy was acting pretty reasonably in drawing the attention of the OP to that inexperience.


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> dh, when you say stuff like
> from a position of zero real experience, seems to me pinkboy was acting pretty reasonably in drawing the attention of the OP to that inexperience.




I'm so sorry guys - I didn't intend for the thread to arouse a potential row but the manner in which I interpreted DH's comment was merely wait for your optimal (or AN optimal) signal for your entry point. 

Wouldn't it be safe to say that although generalized, it is still viable advice which combats compulsive entry and exit?


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## tech/a (5 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> I'm so sorry guys - I didn't intend for the thread to arouse a potential row but the manner in which I interpreted DH's comment was merely wait for your optimal (or AN optimal) signal for your entry point.
> 
> Wouldn't it be safe to say that although generalized, it is still viable advice which combats compulsive entry and exit?




No Its terrible.

If you don't want sound advice (After asking for it) 
I'm sure many of us wont bother to reply to your queries.

His reply is exactly what holds back people from learning *HOW* to trade!


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

Haha you guys analyse every single word in a sentence like a darn professor. It was a figure of speech and should be taken in context. For example be sure that youve done enough research and it feels right to put on the trade. Dont just put it on because it feels semi right. 

I rekon some people would critize top world traders comments to if they didnt know who was sayin it 


To many people on here ego tripping. 

Dont take my advice man, was never a good teacher but its honest advice and intended for the best.

Adios


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

tech/a said:


> No Its terrible.
> 
> If you don't want sound advice (After asking for it)
> I'm sure many of us wont bother to reply to your queries.
> ...




Just trying to keep the peace. If no one wants to reply to me then that's fine - I'll just continue reading. Sorry about the mess.


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

No need to apologize. I wasnt fazed. Maybe some others were.


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## burglar (5 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> Just trying to keep the peace. If no one wants to reply to me then that's fine - I'll just continue reading. Sorry about the mess.




Don't be sorry.

You are in the beginner's lounge, you are here to learn!


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## aBadTrader (5 August 2014)

burglar said:


> Don't be sorry.
> 
> You are in the beginner's lounge, you are here to learn!




Thanks Burglar


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## tech/a (5 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> To many people on here ego tripping.
> 
> 
> 
> Adios




That-----will definately stop me posting.


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## pinkboy (5 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Haha you guys analyse every single word in a sentence like a darn professor.
> 
> Perhaps you should say this to yourself each and every time you post, and go over your post.  You have a bad habit of just typing without actually engaging much more of your brain than what is coming off your fingertips.
> 
> ...




All with the best interests of all, yet my opinion I am responsible for.  Julia did endorse fully what was meant in my earlier post in this thread.

pinkboy


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## Julia (5 August 2014)

tech/a said:


> No Its terrible.
> 
> If you don't want sound advice (After asking for it)
> I'm sure many of us wont bother to reply to your queries.
> ...



It would seem that's exactly what has already happened.  No responses from the people who are the most qualified to offer a useful view.


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## CanOz (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> It would seem that's exactly what has already happened.  No responses from the people who are the most qualified to offer a useful view.




Totally agree...only riddles and puzzles


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

Tech, you can post as manych as you want. Ill take what you offer and use it. It doesnt matter if I like you or not.

Pinkboy high light the flaw in my advice taking into consideration what I really meant. Every one trades in a different time scale. For a intra day trader, day trader etc a perfect set up will look different. So you tailor the advice to your own. You guys hi jacked the thread. You guys had to have a whinge. Im sure your comments would get crapped on by elite traders. Unfortunately there are very few if any on this forum to call you out on your flaws. I guess thats why you guys have big egos. You want to be the centre of attention and have to pick every little detail some one posts to make yourselves feel big. Haha.

And stop trying to type like your some british scholar. Half the stuff you say tech, I cant even make out. I know you think you are very intelligent but maybe if you took the initiative to try and relate to others, your good advice .

I told him the advice was from a noob. I still stand by my advice. I love it though you guys pump me up to keep tearing through it. To keep turning the page and study till I make it. Thankfully I have an asset which alot of use dont have much of. Time hahaha


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## darkhorse70 (5 August 2014)

By the way soory abadtrader. I wont comment again.  Good luck man.


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## barney (6 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> By the way soory abadtrader. I wont comment again.  Good luck man.




Howdy darkhorse ....... I like to read between people's line's a bit, and from where I sit I'd say you are genuinely decent young fellow with good intentions in regard to helping others .... On that score alone I would encourage you not be discouraged

Below I have Bolded out a few of the other things you said in that same post you copped a bit of a bashing over ...... For a so called noob, you actually gave some fairly sound general advice 

What you said about waiting "forever"(that's an over exaggeration) for the good trades to come along was obviously another over exaggeration to make a point, however it was still better that an experienced Trader such as *Pinkboy* pointed it out just in case there was any confusion to other new traders .... As it turned out *aBadTrader* picked up what you were trying to convey anyway, so there you go!  




darkhorse70 said:


> You need to *do alot of critical thinking*. Once you know the basics, you follow the simple do's and dont's. You have to figure out what you did wrong and really *understand why it was not the right thing to do*. By really UNDERSTANDING it means that you are smart enough not to make that same mistake twice. After a while you will realise what trades/setups/trading style you have the most success in.
> 
> Dont beat yourself up.like any art *it takes a long time to get good at*. Just *dont go blowing all your cash *away. You are at your worste when you first begin, there for *its logical to play smaller to lose less *haha.
> 
> *GL man*. Oh yeah and one personal advice from a noob. *Dont be impulsive*. Wait for the perfect setup like your life depends on it. Maybe it might take months or a year but so what.





As you can see I also Bolded* GL man*  ...... people underestimate the amount of luck involved in making good trades  ..... 

The fact that you have also wished a perfect stranger Good Luck also says something about you personally .... you keep on posting!!



*Burglar* pretty much summed it up ... see below



burglar said:


> Don't be sorry.
> 
> *You are in the beginner's lounge, you are here to learn*!


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## aBadTrader (7 August 2014)

Uhh... I appreciate the advice, but am a little disappointed about the attitude being shown in a beginner's lounge. I do admire though, the attitude of the experienced and successful, and I'm not looking to be coddled, though. so in a way I appreciate that too 

Thanks for everyones advice. I take it all with a grain of salt and continue to read and practice and get experience.

I'll try to minimize the newb questions.

regards


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## burglar (8 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> ... I'll try to minimize the newb questions. ...




No! No! No!
Do not minimise the newb questions.

If it happens that other posters are disagreeable 
on you're thread, tell them to go have Hall Sex.




> Hall Sex
> Noun.
> 
> Typically performed by a married couple
> ...


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## pixel (8 August 2014)

burglar said:


> No! No! No!
> Do not minimise the newb questions.
> 
> If it happens that other posters are disagreeable on your thread, tell them to go have Hall Sex.




agree +100% (except with the spelling : )


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## tech/a (8 August 2014)

Could you just point out where anyone has asked 
that beginners questions are not welcomed or frowned upon?

Could you also point out specifically the ego posts?

Could you also point out where my observation and comments relating to bad advice given are in fact in correct?

Could you also clarify for me that the beginners lounge is for Beginners to ask and answer their own questions?

If experienced traders are welcome are they expected not to comment on bad advice as they see it?

The market is brutal and as 90% + of traders fail and its pretty clear from the experienced people here that Bad Trader and Dark horse are tracking down that road!

After 14000 posts and around 3500hrs of posting charts and writing up/passing on 20 yrs of experience is seen as nothing more than an ego trip.-------good luck you'll need it.

Oh and 


> Thankfully I have an asset which alot of use dont have much of. Time hahaha




Yes but *I'm where you want to be!*.


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## pinkboy (8 August 2014)

> Thankfully I have an asset which alot of use dont have much of. Time hahaha






tech/a said:


> Yes but *I'm where you want to be!*.




Ive got to point out that Im not an experienced trader myself, nor even or ever will work in anything remotely trading related. HOWEVER, I rate my experience investing in property and business  highly and can crossover that experience to the finance sector.  I can spot what is good, fair and poor advice and pointed that out.  My current portfolio is a boring one, and only in the $100,000s of ASX Top 50 shares unlike my businesses and property in the $millions, but this should somewhat change in the coming years.

Have to agree with tech/a.  Experience does not equal ego, it qualifies and quantifies that particular persons advices with real life backup.  If you want to butt heads with ego, go to a cycling or triathlon forum where everyone is a self appointed alpha.

Im 31 and phasing to retirement myself.....so Im pretty sure I have some time up my sleeve also.


pinkboy


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## Tradelikespock (9 August 2014)

pixel said:


> One thing I'm wary of and won't make a part of my selection process: I don't rely on reports, broker valuations, crib sheets, or subscribe to newsletters that promise to highlight the next Big Thing.
> Correction: I do take notice of some "recommendations" - but I use them as warning flags that tell me when it's better to get off a hyped-up rally sooner rather than too late.
> (I don't chase Holy Grails either, i.e. I don't follow every new method that promises even higher returns: "Simply sign up at $xxxxx, and we'll help you make an average of 34% or 67% or whatever ..." The honest truth is that those offers are only benefiting the sellers, not the students. Special case of retail trading: Create a demand for a product that costs little or nothing to produce, then persuade customers to pay a high price.)




Amen. That's why it's so hard for me to sell on my website because 1.) Stigma of expensive crap courses and 2.) Honest selling doesn't sell.  

It's easier to entice when vendors like newsletters parade their "1,800%" gains and make you have delusions of grandeur than to say "We'll teach you money management then show you practical application."


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## darkhorse70 (9 August 2014)

Thanks barney. Appreciate the support. Abit of support goes a long way for me anyway. Tech im not saying your advice is bad. Im just saying you are 'ego tripping' because you deliberately want to bash the opinions of another (myself in this case) if you dont want to agree with it. It feels as though you are trying to prove your worth by destroying my opinion (in this case) or mocking it sarcasticly. I personally would never bash some ones advice or put them down. Dont get me wrong I argue with every one I know. I feel its the best way to learn. But im just saying you take some ones statement personally and are threatened by it hence I said ego tripping. I feel pink boy jumped on my back and you because of a previous thread I made about my ambitions in life and again feel threatened. Yes its ignorant but dreaming big is one of the keys to sucess as long as your still sort of rational haha. And I just got defence because I felt my advice although over exaggerated was a fair advice. I didnt claim any magic formula or such. The moral of my advice was make sure youve done enough hw and you guys were tryna pick a fight then also trying to blame abadtrader for not listening to your advice which he was and you guys also created a scene for nuthing. Im not going to lie I would be happy to know what you know but you know what. It might be destiny or not but I stumbled upon an article by mike bellafiore saying he was over whelmed by the amount of info there is on tradingm he thought if you know it all, its the only way to success. But he figured out 20% is relavent and the rest is junk and just confusing. To sum it up, stick to the basics, actually commit to them and I reckon you can become successful. Oh and by the way tech the article you sent me regarding volume analysis was the best article ever. So ill gove you that haha. Show me your asset balance and ill tell you if I want to be where you are at. You are 60 years old im assuming, you started trading at 40 so no I wouldnt want to be in your shoes. This is my journey and yeah success or failure itll be a life lesson either way. By the way sorry julia, this time im not going to use paragraphs ( I forgot haha), and im not going to proof read this so dont quote me haha. By the way I promised myself I wouldnt open this thread, just because its negative vibes and a distraction but I felt like I had to say thanks to barney hence this reply. Anyway take care peeps, no hard feeling tech, youve helped me the most on this journey so I got to thank you. Adios


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## tech/a (9 August 2014)

No the statement is wrong.
There is no other way to say it.
How you take the statement is yours --- you own it.

You don't have to be right to be very profitable.
Your statement ----- and your not alone---is
One that most beginners make after a string if losses.

You see as Radge once said
It doesn't matter that your wrong
But it does matter how long your wrong.

So nothing personal here either.
Simply an observation which I felt
Needed to be corrected. Just like
I would pull you back if I saw you stepping in front
Of a bus!


I can be wrong 90 % of the time yet profitable
I can be right 90% of the time yet go broke!

It's NOT about being right.


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

But you are just playing with my words. Haha


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

So are you endorsing laziness and cutting corners? You see three charts. One of the three posses patterns, volume or whatever you use to analyze your stock which gives you the most likely hood of an outcome. You would obviously go with that option. My point was dont just jump on any signal just because it posses some characteristics of a good stock. Im just saying this because ive foubd my self many times being tempted by stocks which were part good but they had some ifs and maybes. Ive also found some stocks which were so perfect to me that the move was so predictable  and when it moved you werent shocked at all.


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

Tech your cooking my brain. Every advice can be contradicted. Every advice is a shade of grey. Every rule has an exception. This is not science but an art.  You can even point out flaws in the most elite of traders. I dont know what to say hahahaha


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

Im gna take that back. Are you endorsing lack of discipline/patience.
/impulsive behaviour? All I was saying is dont be impulsive. Wait for the roght oppurtunities. We understand probability and all that plays a factor. Cut your losses short, let your winners run yada yada yada haha. Every trading style is different.


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

Why dont you take on 20 random trades. You are still being very selective with your stocks. If you skew the odds in your favour and your R/R etc theb yeah you can have a few winners which wipe all your losses but I highly doubt you could come out infront if you just took on every trade.


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## tech/a (10 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> So are you endorsing laziness and cutting corners?




Define cutting a corner---when I trade I only see a pattern supported with other technical evidence within the landscape of a chart---I completely ignore Fundamentals---if this is cutting corners to you then ---a resounding YES!



> You see three charts. One of the three posses patterns, volume or whatever you use to analyze your stock which gives you the most likely hood of an outcome.




Youll note that I have said thet there are BETTER setups rarely PERFECT setups (Which you are suggesting you should find). If I find something on a chart i wish to trade which indicates that I can anticipate a profitable trade in the direction I wish to trade---then yes---Ill take it. Have I been exhaustively thorough?? Is it a perfect setup??
---no of course not ---but it is a setup which I can anticipate a positive profitable trade.



> You would obviously go with that option. My point was dont just jump on any signal just because it posses some characteristics of a good stock. Im just saying this because ive foubd my self many times being tempted by stocks which were part good but they had some ifs and maybes. Ive also found some stocks which were so perfect to me that the move was so predictable  and when it moved you werent shocked at all



.

In most cases yes I would. It would generally be dependent on time frame.
When trading Futures Indexes I do it all the time. Many ifs and maybe's



> Tech your cooking my brain. Every advice can be contradicted. Every advice is a shade of grey. Every rule has an exception. *This is not science but an art.* You can even point out flaws in the most elite of traders. I dont know what to say hahahaha




Its BOTH.

To those who don't understand how they trade everything is a shade of grey.
When you know exactly how YOU trade then everything is *BLACK* and *WHITE!*
Until it is you've not finished your journey!



> Im gna take that back. Are you endorsing lack of discipline/patience.
> /impulsive behaviour? All I was saying is dont be impulsive. Wait for the roght oppurtunities. We understand probability and all that plays a factor. Cut your losses short, let your winners run yada yada yada haha. Every trading style is different.




Some would certainly see some of my trading as impulsive and many would in hind site. I see a trade---I see it proven or dis proven. 

Whats a right opportunity---its the one that's NOT A LOSER---and you can only be 100% sure of that in hind site!

Sure every trading style seems different but I guarantee you the great ones will be looking for the Yada yada yada.



> Why dont you take on 20 random trades. You are still being very selective with your stocks. If you skew the odds in your favour and your R/R etc theb yeah you can have a few winners which wipe all your losses but I highly doubt you could come out infront if you just took on every trade.




Every profitable trader will tell you that once you have a winning method its Size and frequency which will increase profit. I have never suggested RANDOM TRADES.
I have said and continue to say that there is *NEVER* a perfect setup.
Only better ones than others.
The perfect setup can only be adjudicated *AFTER* the fact not before or as its presented.

Finally here is a method which Trembling hand has shown here.
This is a days trading and yes its different.
But it does show many very important things a trader (Budding one) should be aware of.
See what *YOU* can find!


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

So you grilled me for saying perfect instead of better. See to me the trades which YOU are assuming are better in my mind that would go in the perfect set up. Why? Because youve seen a million charts and you ca  diffrentiate between the good and the bad. The ones with higher probability rates etc. Thats my idea of perfect. Finding the setups that you are good at and going big. Obviously there is no such thing as perfect in this industry. Its all about odds.

Nuthing you are saying to me is a revelation. Im agreeing with every thing you are saying. You just put it vetter in words.

As for what can I find on on that photo. Is this a test? I see


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## darkhorse70 (10 August 2014)

61% win rate. 48 out of 79 or so. He started off positive had some losing trades. Maybr he started tradong smaller etc but then he started getting positive. Broke above BE. I guess he would have started trading bigger as he got positive. Seeing as he was only positive 240 maybe he didnt get much bigger. I dont know what im meant to see on this chart. Maybe if I stare at it for a while ill get more info out of it but im just about to eat pizza and relax infront of the fire place. Maybe watch a doco on stock market frauds or triunphs haha.


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## CanOz (10 August 2014)

tech/a said:


> Define cutting a corner---when I trade I only see a pattern supported with other technical evidence within the landscape of a chart---I completely ignore Fundamentals---if this is cutting corners to you then ---a resounding YES!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Great post Tech!


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## Sir Osisofliver (11 August 2014)

aBadTrader said:


> hi all - I just registered today to the forum. As my name indicates, I am a bad trader. The only success I have found is in buy and selling retail products. I love it, actually. But back in 2012, I tried my hand in shares and CFD's.
> 
> When I began, I had delusions of grandeur - setting up stops so short you would have to kneel down to pat its head, and limits so long that the best bionic eye could not catch a glimpse of, and in turn lost money. The money I lost, was insignificant - however, that did not stop me. Learning a lesson, I came back with a vengeance, with some new information, and then lost again.
> 
> ...




Hi Abadtrader, Sir O here, have a look at the thread in my signature, you might find some useful stuff....

Ok So in my reading of what you, (and others) have written I'm seeing something that I think needs to be brought to your attention, so here it is....

It took me many years to figure out that the way that other traders trade was not massively relevant to *me*. Sure looking at the methodology of certain traders is useful, it can stimulate ideas and creativity, but here's the kicker... *those traders built that system/strategy/philosophy for themselves.* 

You speak to any successful trader and this sits at the core of what they do. They don't follow other people, they forge their own path, with something that is designed for them..... But before they can build something for them, they have to understand *themselves and the resources that they have*.

So how much do you know about you? Are you the sort of person who enjoys action and excitement? Does the idea of doing 78 trades in a single trading session a) excite or b) frighten you?  Does the idea of holding a position for 12+ months sound a) prudent or b) as boring as watching paint dry?

The above are just some examples of the kinds of things that as trading concerns, impact one thing...our emotional state. As emotional beings we have emotional bias based upon our experience, maturity and other factors. For about 40% of us, we only learn by doing, I hear the statement "Unless there is real money on the table its meaningless." (because of the now emotional engagement being made). This is not true for everyone, some of us indeed do learn by testing. For some traders they attempt to remove all emotion with rules and systems, but this is still an *emotional* decision. (I have learned because of negative experiences that colour my trading experience, not to trust my emotions, therefore I will eliminate them from my trading system). To some people, trading without discretionary influence sounds like pure insanity.

To some using purely technical information for their decision process is da bomb, for others all those squiggles on a chart are just Greek to them and fundamental information is where the real game is. 

One of the things I tell new people to the industry and trading is that in my experience the best starting point is you, and understanding yourself.  If you can do this right, it will significantly cut down the amount of time it takes to become proficient and give you a greater chance of success. This is why only 20% of what we see around us in terms of trading information is relevant..*to us*. I would therefore highly encourage you to do some deep navel gazing and have a think about how this might impact your trading style going forward......

To me this is what Tech was saying about shades of grey vs black and white. If I know myself and I see a new idea/system/strategy/indicator/piece of advice/whatever, if I lack knowledge about myself, that "whatever" is lost in a sea of grey. I don't know if it applies to me or not. If I know myself, I can say... relevant/not relevant, black/white pretty easily.

So my suggestion to you is.... "nosce te ipsum, tu ipse es" - "Know thyself, be thyself"

Good luck on your Journey.

Cheers

Sir O


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