# Trading in Domain Names?



## netfleet (25 May 2009)

Is anyone involved?  In Australia the trading of domains has only been permitted since June last year so it's a pretty new industry.

However things are gathering pace with tremendous ROI but hampered by a real lack of liquidity as there are so few players.

However just like bricks and mortar, this virtual real estate:

1) is in finite supply
2) can be rented (generally 'parked' with ads via Google)
3) developed
4) bought and sold

So would you investment experts consider domain trading a bonafide (albeit extremely niche) industry?  I'd very much appreciate some thoughts from a trader's perspective.

I'm talking .AU of course - I don't think there can be any arguments that many people have made millions investing in .COM over the years.

Thanks very much

David


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## white_goodman (25 May 2009)

i dont really understand.... so what you think of a popular or wanted website name and then sell it one day to someone?

what like i register www.aussiestocks.com.au or something?


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## netfleet (25 May 2009)

Yes that could be an example of a successful trade.

Personally I have registered around 2,500 .au domains over the last few years.  These cost me a little over $30K p.a. in renewal fees.  However they make more than twice that in advertising income.  So it's a cash positive investment from that POV

Plus, they are on average steadily appreciating in value and I sell a handful every month.  Every single business that wants a website needs a domain so as long as that number is increasing, so is demand.  And supply is limited so I'd like to think values will increase.

Eg webdesign.net.au was registered a few years ago (costing $25 every 2 years) and sold a couple of weeks ago for $10,000.

Another example is cloudcomputing.com.au - we hand registered that about 4 years ago and put an informational site on it.  Now cloud computing is big business and the likes of Dell & Sun have shown interest in buying it from us.

Some areas of domains are so limited in numbers that their value has a floor.  Eg 2-letter com.au domains (such as ab.com.au or pq.com.au)  They were available a few years ago to hand register but now will never sell for less than $1,000.

IMO it's an exciting speculative industry with an extremely low cost of entry.  A few hundred dollars can register a dozen or so carefully picked domain names which may be worth thousands down the line.


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## nunthewiser (25 May 2009)

i,ll have 20 thanks

where do i sign?


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

And thus the ceaseless monetisation of our little corner of the Internet rolls on.... if only Robert Elz wasn't forced to hand over com.au to Melbourne IT in the mid '90s we might still have some integrity and an ability to stop phishing attacks on Australian financial institutions.

*sigh*

m.


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

netfleet, how do you get a value for your names, generic are more valuable for instance but what are they worth ? I mean you wouldn't give up a generic name for nothing, they're irreplaceable.


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> And thus the ceaseless monetisation of our little corner of the Internet rolls on.... if only Robert Elz wasn't forced to hand over com.au to Melbourne IT in the mid '90s we might still have some integrity and an ability to stop phishing attacks on Australian financial institutions.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> m.




You talk about integrity and you're on a share trading forum LOL how's the short selling going today ???


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## nunthewiser (25 May 2009)

had a friend make a few bucks creating domain names 

was a very creative young man tho and was quite a few years back

can be done but not my cup of tea


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## gfresh (25 May 2009)

Are you just gambling on speculation that somebody may actually want the names you register in future? The hit/miss ratio must be pretty high. 

I don't see why anybody should have to pay big dollars paid for simply a name, many of which are just common words? It isn't actually anything tangible where any constructive effort has been put into producing the item. You click a couple of boxes, and there is your domain name. 

Those rubbish "nothing" placeholder sites which are simply advertising pages give me the irrits, I don't quite why they should be allowed to exist, they serve no purpose as any productive part of the internet..

I've had domain names I've let go in the past, only to go to the sharks who re-register them, simply to capture traffic from the former name and goodwill created from the website to stick stupid advertising banners on them.. I think that is pretty low to piggyback off what somebody else has helped establish as a name.


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> You talk about integrity and you're on a share trading forum LOL how's the short selling going today ???




It's completely different.  Domain names are based purely on TRUST, there is no effective regulation and very few checks & balances.

Want to steal some ASF members across to a new forum? Go register aussiestockforum.com & aussiestockforms.com, make them look fairly similar and start phishing a few of the lesser clued ASF members.  

m.


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> It's completely different.  Domain names are based purely on TRUST, there is no effective regulation and very few checks & balances.
> 
> Want to steal some ASF members across to a new forum? Go register aussiestockforum.com & aussiestockforms.com, make them look fairly similar and start phishing a few of the lesser clued ASF members.
> 
> m.




Same with a company name if you're that keen go for it.
Anyone would be welcome to the lesser clued ASF members, what on earth would anyone want them for:


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Same with a company name if you're that keen go for it.



But that's the point.  In the past if you wanted a .com.au you had to PROVE it was a business, with an ACN, and the domain name had to look something like your registered business name or trading name.



> Anyone would be welcome to the lesser clued ASF members, what on earth would anyone want them for:



It's an example to illustrate the unregulated nature of the .com namespace, that's all.  

Phishing attacks weren't common when control of .com.au was wrested away from Elz, nobody really thought through the impact of deregulating things.  We are now seeing the impact of it, every day, and the attacks are getting much more sophisticated.  Oh well, at least it keeps me in a job.

m.


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## investorpaul (25 May 2009)

Netfleet do you actually approach companies saying that you have a domain name they may be interested in? or do you simply wait for them to approach you?


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## nunthewiser (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> Phishing attacks weren't common when control of .com.au was wrested away from Elz, nobody really thought through the impact of deregulating things.  We are now seeing the impact of it, every day, and the attacks are getting much more sophisticated.  Oh well, at least it keeps me in a job.
> 
> m.




what exactly are "phishing" attacks ?

excuse my naivety i just dont know what it stands for


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> But that's the point.  In the past if you wanted a .com.au you had to PROVE it was a business, with an ACN, and the domain name had to look something like your registered business name or trading name.
> 
> 
> It's an example to illustrate the unregulated nature of the .com namespace, that's all.
> ...




It was easy to get a doman name even then... you just had to register a business name similar to the domain name, easy. 

You didnt actually have to run a business just have the registered name.

I think netfleet has shot through, we may have been the target of a viral marketing exercise.


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> what exactly are "phishing" attacks ?




When you're on the end of the pier and catching phish then other phishermen come along and set up next to you taking all your phish away.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> what exactly are "phishing" attacks ?
> 
> excuse my naivety i just dont know what it stands for




http://lmgtfy.com/?q=phishing+attack


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## Aussiest (25 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> we may have been the target of a viral marketing exercise.




Yeah, somebody should get on his or her website and waste their (netfleet's) time :


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## nunthewiser (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=phishing+attack





hahahahah funny link


thanks mr burns


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## netfleet (25 May 2009)

marklar said:


> And thus the ceaseless monetisation of our little corner of the Internet rolls on.... if only Robert Elz wasn't forced to hand over com.au to Melbourne IT in the mid '90s we might still have some integrity and an ability to stop phishing attacks on Australian financial institutions.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> m.




phishing is nothing to do with domaining.  And I don't think there has ever been a phishing attack using a .AU domain name.  The namespace is highly regulated (some would say overregulated).

Think of the last time you got an email pretending to be from a bank.  Check out the link - it's never a .au domain.



MrBurns said:


> netfleet, how do you get a value for your names, generic are more valuable for instance but what are they worth ? I mean you wouldn't give up a generic name for nothing, they're irreplaceable.




Valuation is a tricky business - esp with less than one year of sales history to benchmark.  There is real value in SEO too (search engine optimisation) not to mention the impact of ROI a memorable domain can have on optimisation.

Put it this way, if I was launching a new website (maybe a new business), I'd be happy to spend a few hundred to a few thousand to have a half decent domain if I'm going to try and market it at all (rather than compromise on a crappy hand-registered name)



gfresh said:


> Are you just gambling on speculation that somebody may actually want the names you register in future? The hit/miss ratio must be pretty high.
> 
> I don't see why anybody should have to pay big dollars paid for simply a name, many of which are just common words? It isn't actually anything tangible where any constructive effort has been put into producing the item. You click a couple of boxes, and there is your domain name.
> 
> ...




Yes it is hit and miss but if the 'type-in traffic' (the holy grail for domainers) meets or exceeds your $25 every 2 years, you can afford to play the numbers game and hold thousands of them.

I understand your point re the placeholder sites but remember if they weren't registered what would you see?  "This page can not be displayed..."  At least a parked site might give you some useful links (albeit ads)



investorpaul said:


> Netfleet do you actually approach companies saying that you have a domain name they may be interested in? or do you simply wait for them to approach you?




The former is very very hard.  For example I tried to flog debitcard.com.au to the banks.  They wouldn't listen so I spent a few hundred developing it and now if you search for 'debit card' in Google, my little site is number 2, way above all the financial institutions.  Now perhaps they might be interested - after all they all spend millions promoting products just like these



Aussiest said:


> Yeah, somebody should get on his or her website and waste their (netfleet's) time :




You are more than welcome   Look it wasn't a 'viral marketing' excercise by any means.  I am just genuinly interested in a trader's assessment of such an investment.  Most people in domains (myself included) do not have your skills but just fell into it one way or another.

Of course it is in my interests for more people to invest & trade as it's good for the site.

Anyway I'm happy to answer any questions about it - you'd be surprised to the extent of it & who are involved (did you know Fairfax owns 33,000 .au domains and another Australian listed company owns around 550,000 domains)


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## Aussiest (25 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> Look it wasn't a 'viral marketing' excercise by any means.  I am just genuinly interested in a trader's assessment of such an investment.  Most people in domains (myself included) do not have your skills but just fell into it one way or another.
> 
> Of course it is in my interests for more people to invest & trade as it's good for the site.
> 
> Anyway I'm happy to answer any questions about it - you'd be surprised to the extent of it & who are involved (did you know Fairfax owns 33,000 .au domains and another Australian listed company owns around 550,000 domains)




Well, seeing as you asked...

I think the domain name business is a great business to be in. By the looks of it, you have done quite well. I do think, however, that you need to have a lot of IT knowledge.

The only thing is i think it's a bit lecherous sometimes. For example, if somebody has a business and somebody else rushes off to register the domain and then tries to sell it back to them at an extremely elevated price.


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## MrBurns (25 May 2009)

Aussiest said:


> Well, seeing as you asked...
> 
> I think the domain name business is a great business to be in. By the looks of it, you have done quite well. I do think, however, that you need to have a lot of IT knowledge.
> 
> The only thing is i think it's a bit lecherous sometimes. For example, if somebody has a business and somebody else rushes off to register the domain (i know a savvy business person should think of this, but until recently, domain name registration was not a concern for a majority of business owners).




You cant take someones elses business name ie: Coke or something like that, that's cyber squatting and there are penalties but you can take excellent domain names that businesses *should *have thought of but didnt.


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> phishing is nothing to do with domaining.  And I don't think there has ever been a phishing attack using a .AU domain name.



Gotta start somewhere.  As I said, DNS is based around trust, you have an opportunity to leverage that trust through registering dodgy domains. 


> The namespace is highly regulated (some would say overregulated).



And yet...


> For example I tried to flog debitcard.com.au to the banks.



So you, having no financial qualifications or license yet were able to register a domain in .com.au that was ultimately destined for one of the banks.  I'm sorry but that is hardly regulated at all.  Mr Elz would have told you to get stuffed.


> Think of the last time you got an email pretending to be from a bank.  Check out the link - it's never a .au domain.



Correct, it's from a registry that is cheaper than .com.au. and most people don't understand the difference.


> Put it this way, if I was launching a new website (maybe a new business), I'd be happy to spend a few hundred to a few thousand to have a half decent domain if I'm going to try and market it at all (rather than compromise on a crappy hand-registered name)



So eBay and Google were all household words before they got started? And they paid a few hundred thousand dollars to get their domain names?


> I understand your point re the placeholder sites but remember if they weren't registered what would you see?  "This page can not be displayed..."  At least a parked site might give you some useful links (albeit ads)



It's no better than Verisign implementing wildcard DNS entries in .com and .net 6 years ago.  IT WASTES TIME AND NETWORK BANDWIDTH!  

In case you can't tell, I have very little time for people that domain squat.

m.


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## netfleet (25 May 2009)

Aussiest said:


> Well, seeing as you asked...
> 
> I think the domain name business is a great business to be in. By the looks of it, you have done quite well. I do think, however, that you need to have a lot of IT knowledge.
> 
> The only thing is i think it's a bit lecherous sometimes. For example, if somebody has a business and somebody else rushes off to register the domain and then tries to sell it back to them at an extremely elevated price.




You really don't need any IT knowledge at all.  Of course it helps especially when it comes to developing but I'm no techie by a long, long shot.  Business (and trading, I suspect) acumen is the main thing.

What you are referring to in your 2nd paragraph is known as cybersquatting.  A simple phone call to auDA (the domain name regulator) will strip the registrant of the domain.  This is not the case in other countries though where you have to lodge a formal complaint to the WIPO



marklar said:


> ...
> 
> So you, having no financial qualifications or license yet were able to register a domain in .com.au that was ultimately destined for one of the banks.  I'm sorry but that is hardly regulated at all.  Mr Elz would have told you to get stuffed.
> 
> ...




Sorry but you're wrong with debitcard.com.au.  Are you saying that I have no rights to that domain?  It should have been left dormant until a financial institution registered it on a whim?  Have a look at the site - you may even find it useful.

It's the business of publishing to a large extent.  Is there anything wrong with me publishing relevant information on a wide range of subjects using generic domain names?  Even if it is supported by advertising (as is most publishing of course)

And, phishers do not use .com domains rather than com.au to save money!  The different between US$7 pa and A$12.50 pa is not going to sway them from their eveil schemes to scam people out of thousands of dollars.  I reiterate, they don't use com.au because of the regulation (you need an ABN for example)

Not sure what you mean with ebay & google - these are not generic domains.  But, just say some canny speculator, many many years ago had registered a heap of nonsense domains that he thought sounded quite good and coule be considered 'brandable' would that be so wrong?

If they had have done that & the now Ebay fancied the name, they probably would have bought it from the speculator for a few hundred bucks (after all it wouldn't have had much inherent value prior to the building of the brand).  All sounds pretty fair to me.  A developer buying a block of land from a land owner.

With all that said, it is quite a wild west type industry and I can understand and respect your concerns.  It's so new (esp in Australia) that boundaries are continually being pushed and tested.  But, so some extent that adds to the appeal - being involved in something that's so new & exciting.


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## marklar (25 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> Sorry but you're wrong with debitcard.com.au.   Have a look at the site - you may even find it useful.



OK, lets have a look.  First "Apply" link for an ANZ Everyday Visa Debt card redirects to: 
*Link removed*

s2d6.com is an affiliate link site and doubleclick - an advertising site.
Strange that neither of them is ANZ... maybe I won't give whatever site I end up with my personal details thanks all the same.


> Is there anything wrong with me publishing relevant information on a wide range of subjects using generic domain names?  Even if it is supported by advertising (as is most publishing of course)



Yep.  I work for a financial institution that may or may not be being hijacked by your site, redirecting potential customers to sites that are not controlled by said financial institution; you better believe I have a problem with that.


> Not sure what you mean with ebay & google - these are not generic domains.



Exactly.  They started what many would claim to be a successful business with a domain name that was publicly available, not something high-priced from a squatter.  If eBay wasn't available it might have been fBay instead.


> With all that said, it is quite a wild west type industry and I can understand and respect your concerns.  .



LOL! It hasn't been the wild west since the dotcom boom ten years ago.

Best of luck with your business model dude, I've got a rack of 28.8k modems taped together if you want to start an ISP.  I'll even help you get some cheap advertising space on GeoCities 

m.


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## Gerkin (26 May 2009)

I have a few domains registered, both with .com and .au. I always buy both the .com and .au (in my pty ltd name) at the same time. I'm looking at starting to develop some of them into websites with affliate links and advertising, in the hope to a) create revenue and b) flog them off later.
It sure is a new however if you stick with what you know you can make money out of it.


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## netfleet (26 May 2009)

marklar said:


> OK, lets have a look.  First "Apply" link for an ANZ Everyday Visa Debt card redirects to:
> *Link Removed*
> 
> s2d6.com is an affiliate link site and doubleclick - an advertising site.
> ...




Are you seriously suggesting that this site is actually 'hijacking' potential customers of the ANZ??!!  

You correctly identified the link as being an affiliate link - set up expressly by ANZ so that they can identify us as referring a client to them and pay us a referral fee if they go on and apply for a debit card.

Precisely the same as the ING ad on this site which redirects to:

'http://clk.atdmt.com/goiframe/115563027/151180890/direct/01'

The ANZ approached us through an aggregator of such affiliates to place this link on their site.

Your response is an absolute classic case of fearing what you don't understand.  

Because you can't grasp what it's all about, the words 'redirect', 'affiliate, 'advertising site' all take on sinister meanings to you and the online advertising world is a scary place full of scammers and traps.

You pretend to have a handle on phishing and squatting but in both cases in this thread you've defined them incorrectly.

If I registered ebay.com.au in 1996 for example, way before the company was conceived and then the now Ebay came along and bought it from me, then IMO that's perfectly fair.  I reiterate - it's equivalent to a land owner being approached by a company that plans to build their worldwide headquarters there.  Should that land owner never have bought the land.  Should he have left it there to be claimed by someone else?

Here is a definition of squatting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersquatting

As you can see it relies of trading off the goodwill of an existing brand.

Anyway, I didn't come on here to defend the industry.  It exists and is thriving whether you like it or not.  People are allowed to make money online without breaking any laws or crossing ethical boundaries.

My real question was whether the Australian domain industry, in particular could be considered a viable trading marketplace or whether the market is just too small and/or reliant on luck.  The fact is the vast majority of domain owners are hobbysist with a couple of dozen names registered or bought using less than scientific methods but they seem to do OK.

Dark Blue Sea a listed Australian company, have put a more business-like approach to their domain names (mainly .com's)

Say they register 1,000 domains for $7 pa.  They might receive an everage income of $4 pa per domain.  That equates to a loss of $3.  However they also have calculated that they have a 1% chance of selling each domain pa for $500 which effectively adds a further $5 pa of value onto each domain.  So, on average theire revenue is $9/per domain and a holding cost of $7/domain.

Applying this logic they have registered over 500,000 such names.

Plus, as more people come online, the average value of the domains will increase.

Does this make solid trading sense to you guys?


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## marklar (26 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that this site is actually 'hijacking' potential customers of the ANZ??!!
> 
> You correctly identified the link as being an affiliate link - set up expressly by ANZ so that they can identify us as referring a client to them and pay us a referral fee if they go on and apply for a debit card.



I never said it WAS hijacking potential customers, but you admit it's a domain that is outside your control and outside ANZ's control.  I don't know who s2d6.com is, why should I trust them to redirect MY web browser?  They may be trustworthy today, but who is to say they will be tomorrow?  What is my legal recourse with them if they do something nefarious with my personal details? 

You know what? If I want to go to ANZ and apply for a card I'll jolly well type in www.anz.com.au thanks all the same.



> Your response is an absolute classic case of fearing what you don't understand.
> 
> Because you can't grasp what it's all about, the words 'redirect', 'affiliate, 'advertising site' all take on sinister meanings to you and the online advertising world is a scary place full of scammers and traps.



LOL! You have no idea who I am or what my experience or expertise is, but part of my job is to educate end users to NOT click on links they don't trust. I don't trust your links, I'll tell my end users not to trust them either.


> You pretend to have a handle on phishing and squatting but in both cases in this thread you've defined them incorrectly.



It all relates back to an abuse of TRUST (see, that word keeps coming up again).  What you do with that abuse of trust once you've exploited it is really beside the point.  



> If I registered ebay.com.au in 1996 for example, way before the company was conceived and then the now Ebay came along and bought it from me, then IMO that's perfectly fair.  I reiterate - it's equivalent to a land owner being approached by a company that plans to build their worldwide headquarters there.  Should that land owner never have bought the land.  Should he have left it there to be claimed by someone else?



Many local councils have development caveats on their land, use it or lose it; they can tell you what you can and cannot build on it and you can be taxed on its value and your improvements on it, this does not happen with domain names.  Land is a finite and tangible resource, a domain name is neither, it's not an equal comparison.



> Anyway, I didn't come on here to defend the industry.  It exists and is thriving whether you like it or not.  People are allowed to make money online without breaking any laws or crossing ethical boundaries.



And now you're making the same arguments that spammers make. Congratulations! That's a mighty nice hole you're digging for yourself.



> Plus, as more people come online, the average value of the domains will increase.
> 
> Does this make solid trading sense to you guys?



I'm sorry but it doesn't to me.  Based on last years' figures there are over 11 million names in the .au namespace, 625 million throughout the greater Internet (.au is ranked 12th after .net, .com, .jp, .de, .it and a couple of other countries) and a year ago ICANN further relaxed the rules for Top-Level domains.  The namespace is getting bigger in leaps & bounds.... quick go hoover it all up at $7 pa, maybe someone will want to buy it.  :silly:

You going to start selling IPv6 addresses too?

m.


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## Gerkin (27 May 2009)

This has just become a self promoting thread from a new poster only interested in putting his own business forward.


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## netfleet (27 May 2009)

marklar said:


> I never said it WAS hijacking potential customers, but you admit it's a domain that is outside your control and outside ANZ's control.  I don't know who s2d6.com is, why should I trust them to redirect MY web browser?  They may be trustworthy today, but who is to say they will be tomorrow?  What is my legal recourse with them if they do something nefarious with my personal details?
> 
> You know what? If I want to go to ANZ and apply for a card I'll jolly well type in www.anz.com.au thanks all the same.




You certainly suggested it.  Anyway, by the same token, I hope you will be advising your fellow forum members not to click on the ads on this forum which use the exact same technology.  The very ads that support the running of the forum.



marklar said:


> LOL! You have no idea who I am or what my experience or expertise is, but part of my job is to educate end users to NOT click on links they don't trust. I don't trust your links, I'll tell my end users not to trust them either.




That's fine.  You're right I have no idea what your job is or your area of expertise.  However I do know that it's not in domains and yet you are persisting in trying to discredit the industry.



marklar said:


> And now you're making the same arguments that spammers make. Congratulations! That's a mighty nice hole you're digging for yourself.




Hmmm I'm not sure I understand? What hole?



marklar said:


> I'm sorry but it doesn't to me.  Based on last years' figures there are over 11 million names in the .au namespace, 625 million throughout the greater Internet (.au is ranked 12th after .net, .com, .jp, .de, .it and a couple of other countries) and a year ago ICANN further relaxed the rules for Top-Level domains.  The namespace is getting bigger in leaps & bounds.... quick go hoover it all up at $7 pa, maybe someone will want to buy it.  :silly:
> 
> You going to start selling IPv6 addresses too?
> 
> m.




Correction.

There are approx 1.2m .au domain names (you are out by a factor of 10)
There are approx 160m domain names in total (you are out by a factor of about 4)
ICANN have not yet relaxed the rules for TLDs - this is forcast to take place next year not last year.

Anyway, the relative size of the .au market does not necessarily indicate whether it's a viable market or not.  What's the relative size of the ASX globally?

I'm sorry Mark but I'm a bit bemused by your attack on what I do for a living.  You don't know what it's all about and again, I think it must be driven by fear (of the unknown).

You have tried to adopt an authorative postion relating to domains and the internet but have demonstrated a real lack of knowledge in this area.  

1) Incorrectly stated that in the mid nineties, the handover of control of .au namespace control to MelbourneIT resulted in phishing attacks.  There has not been *a single* documented attempt at phishing using a .au domain name (this mistake concerns me as you stated preventing these attacks kept you in a job  )
2) Incorrectly defining (cyber)squatting
3) Suggesting that one of my sites could be 'hijacking' visitors when it was just using the exact same technology as many thousands of other sites (including this one)
4) Mistakenly estimating the numbers of registered domains by many many times.

So, my suggestion is - stop trying to discredit this little industry.  You aren't succeeding and your arguments are riddled with holes and in many cases are just plain wrong.  There's no way I would even thing about doing the same with your industry (share trading) however I felt about it because I know and accept I don't have any knowledge.



Gerkin said:


> This has just become a self promoting thread from a new poster only interested in putting his own business forward.




Nonesense.  I haven't even mentioned my business name and have spent nearly all the time defending an unprovoked attack on 'my' industry.

I am guilty of being a new poster though, you got that right.  Nice welcome you guys give around here by the way.....


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## Gerkin (27 May 2009)

But you did show us one of your links? As I said its in the interest of self promotion. You have only talked about your business, and you have dropped in your affiliate advertising website, Why don’t you go in and actually talk about stocks like this forum is for?


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## MrBurns (27 May 2009)

Gerkin said:


> But you did show us one of your links? As I said its in the interest of self promotion. You have only talked about your business, and you have dropped in your affiliate advertising website, Why don’t you go in and actually talk about stocks like this forum is for?




This is the general forum you can talk about anything you want , if you dont like the thread dont contribute. Simple.

Domain names can be gold, if you have a good one it will make you a lot of money IF you know how to use it.


----------



## Gerkin (27 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> This is the general forum you can talk about anything you want , if you dont like the thread dont contribute. Simple.
> 
> Domain names can be gold, if you have a good one it will make you a lot of money IF you know how to use it.




Bit strange how someone comes on, provides affiliate links for which they get paid for isnt it?

Hey i might as well come on here, put my website as my signature, all the people on this site see my website then you go to it, then you would click on the affilaite advertising and then i get paid. Yeah i might just do that, easy.


----------



## MrBurns (27 May 2009)

Gerkin said:


> Bit strange how someone comes on, provides affiliate links for which they get paid for isnt it?
> 
> Hey i might as well come on here, put my website as my signature, all the people on this site see my website then you go to it, then you would click on the affilaite advertising and then i get paid. Yeah i might just do that, easy.




God idea but you wont get rich on the clickthroughs from here


----------



## Gerkin (27 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> God idea but you wont get rich on the clickthroughs from here




Course i wont but it was essentially the same thing he was doing ie self promotion. If you dont agree show me one post of his about another topic?


----------



## netfleet (27 May 2009)

Gerkin said:


> Bit strange how someone comes on, provides affiliate links for which they get paid for isnt it?
> 
> Hey i might as well come on here, put my website as my signature, all the people on this site see my website then you go to it, then you would click on the affilaite advertising and then i get paid. Yeah i might just do that, easy.




It was marklar who posted the link after his investigation to try and discredit me.  Don't worry though I'll only get paid  if someone on this forum happens to 

a) click on the link
b) then sign up for a debit card with ANZ within 60 days

In reality how likely is that?  Do you think that's my grand plan and why I've been spending all this time responding to this thread?

Look, my motivation for posting here is to get a genuine feel for what more traditional Aussie traders might think about domain trading.  

I think my question has been answered to some extent...

No, we don't understand, we don't want to understand, we're afraid of things we don't understand and we're happier with our stocks and shares.

Ah well... good luck to you all.  I had thought forums were all about sharing information, ideas and expertise but I must be wrong.


----------



## MrBurns (27 May 2009)

It didnt seem like self promotion to me  and I really dont care anyway as I'm interested in the subject matter, those in here who arent just p#@# off for goodness sake !


----------



## Aussiest (27 May 2009)

I remember registering a .com domain name a few years ago (it didn't previously exist - i came up with the name). I did it over the phone, and at the time the call taker commented on what a good name it was. I assume he 'flagged' it. I eventually let the name expire. My choice. 

However, immediately after it expired, i noticed it had a whole bunch of links on it and was for sale on a premium domain names website, for 10X the amount i paid for it. 

Fair enough, i let the name expire. However, i do find it down right thievery that the domain name was swallowed up by the registrar and put on the market for an inflated price rather than being offered back to the consumer at fair value.

My only conclusion is that these people rarely have ideas of their own and that their business survives on opportunistic methods. 

Nothing against you NetFleet, i would hope that you would operate with more ethics :. This particular company i will never use again due to their inflated prices and lack of ethics.

I actually have a pretty good .com.au registered. I wonder how i'd go about setting up links and making $ out of it?


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## MrBurns (27 May 2009)

Aussiest said:


> I remember registering a .com domain name a few years ago (it didn't previously exist - i came up with the name). I did it over the phone, and at the time the call taker commented on what a good name it was. I assume he 'flagged' it. I eventually let the name expire. My choice.
> 
> However, immediately after it expired, i noticed it had a whole bunch of links on it and was for sale on a premium domain names website, for 10X the amount i paid for it.
> 
> ...





There's really nothing unethical about that, you let the name expire, they took it up and worked with it, you didnt. 

It really sounds more like sour grapes from your end.

I had a great number plate once, I handed it back and someone else took it straight away, now I regret it, my fault, end of story.


----------



## Aussiest (27 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> It really sounds more like sour grapes from your end.




It is sour grapes. However, i've learned my lesson.

My points of contention were:

1. It was my name, they didn't think of it
2. They must have flagged it when i first registered it as the day after it expired it appeared with links etc.
3. Their business operates on vulcherous and opportunistic methods.

I wouldn't have cared if another consumer had have grabbed it. It just really annoyed me that they grabbed it and hiked the price up.

It's a little different to your number plate example. It's not like VicRoads (or wherever you are) took it back from you and hiked the price up 10-20 times. There are regulations for that.

Anyhow, enough said.


----------



## Taltan (27 May 2009)

Its an interesting industry, and many have done very well off it over the last 15 years. I guess unlike real land the main issue is the assumption of finite supply. For example you could have 100 million ".au" registrations and the OSI convention gurus could decide that ".aus" can now be used. I'm not a tech head but I believe Internet 3 is a new concept and I assume its conventions have yet to be determined.

Other than that it should make good money and I would look at say a place like India where internet use is growing a lot faster than Australia.


----------



## netfleet (27 May 2009)

Ah, so maybe there is a bit of interest here after all.  Great.



Aussiest said:


> I remember registering a .com domain name a few years ago (it didn't previously exist - i came up with the name). I did it over the phone, and at the time the call taker commented on what a good name it was. I assume he 'flagged' it. I eventually let the name expire. My choice.
> 
> However, immediately after it expired, i noticed it had a whole bunch of links on it and was for sale on a premium domain names website, for 10X the amount i paid for it.
> 
> Fair enough, i let the name expire. However, i do find it down right thievery that the domain name was swallowed up by the registrar and put on the market for an inflated price rather than being offered back to the consumer at fair value.




Some registrars in the US have gone a step further with 'domain sniffing'.  This is where they analyse people's checks for domain availability and have automated programs that count the number of queries that people make.

If there are x amount of queries, they grab the domain for themselves assuming that these availability checks indicate a certain level of demand out there.

Moral of the story is - if you're interested in a domain name & it's available, grab it quick because merely checking the availability might mean it gets snaffled from under you!



Aussiest said:


> I actually have a pretty good .com.au registered. I wonder how i'd go about setting up links and making $ out of it?




You have 2 real options for making money out of a domain.  Easiest is to 'Park' it - this will use a third party (like Namedrive, Sedo or Fabulous (an Australian listed company)) who act as an aggregator and plaster it with relevant ads.  You get paid a few cents if people click on the ads (after Google's cut & the aggregator's cut of course) - think of this as your 'dividend' on the investment.

Dead easy takes 5 minutes to set up an account and 30 secs to add a domain.

So shoes.com.au would have ads by Reebok, Nike, John's Sports shoes etc..

A lot of people hate these sites but my view is it's better than nothing from a users point of view (because the ads are relevant) and a good temporary option while you work out what to do with it.

The other option is to develop it.  You can still make money from ads but developing real content and building links (something you wouldn't bother with a parked domain) will mean you should start to show up in the search results and get traffic that way.  You also get a better yield this way as you can cut out the parking middleman and sometimes even the all powerful Google.

Takes much longer but it is an investment in your virtual property...



Taltan said:


> Its an interesting industry, and many have done very well off it over the last 15 years. I guess unlike real land the main issue is the assumption of finite supply. For example you could have 100 million ".au" registrations and the OSI convention gurus could decide that ".aus" can now be used. I'm not a tech head but I believe Internet 3 is a new concept and I assume its conventions have yet to be determined.
> 
> Other than that it should make good money and I would look at say a place like India where internet use is growing a lot faster than Australia.




The good thing about Australia is that trading has only been allowed since last June so the only options to make money up til then were to monetise or develop.

Your example of a new extension being released (eg .aus) is a very real risk to values of existing domains.  However if it did happen there could be fantastic opportunities too - you might be able to get flowers.com.aus for example.

However .AU is pretty firmly entrenched (esp com.au) so will always have strong demand.

India is a great opportunity with only a 7% internet penetration and over 1billion population.  Language and culture differences could be a real problem though.

Same with China - potentially a massive market.  But be careful, I heard of a guy who paid big bucks for a name in mandarin script that he thought meant poker.  Turned out it did but a poker like you would use to stoke a fire...

There are still plenty of opportunities in Australia though.  As long as more and more people put up websites, the demand keeps growing.  Unlikely anyone will turn a $25 rego fee into $100,000 (those days are gone) but to turn it into $200 or $500 is very achievable...


----------



## Aussiest (27 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> 'Park' it - this will use a third party (like Namedrive, Sedo or Fabulous (an Australian listed company)) who act as an aggregator and plaster it with relevant ads.  You get paid a few cents if people click on the ads (after Google's cut & the aggregator's cut of course) - think of this as your 'dividend' on the investment.
> 
> Dead easy takes 5 minutes to set up an account and 30 secs to add a domain.
> 
> ...




So, if i parked my domain with a 3rd party provider, would i:

1. have to pay a monthly hosting fee? Or does provider pay this?
2. be able to get full control of my domain back whenever i like (eg, use it for other things)?

Does the 3rd party provider ask for the auth code and registry key?

How difficult is it to use a formerly parked domain for a business website?

Other option: in relation to building links myself, i'm assuming i'd approach relevant business with web-addresses? Not sure on how to charge payment... Would i have to include some content, eg, an "About Us" section, and perhaps some informational blurb?!

Thanks for answering NetFleet, really quite interesting


----------



## netfleet (27 May 2009)

Aussiest said:


> So, if i parked my domain with a 3rd party provider, would i:
> 
> 1. have to pay a monthly hosting fee? Or does provider pay this?
> 2. be able to get full control of my domain back whenever i like (eg, use it for other things)?
> ...




No problem at all - you are very welcome.

Parking is very easy.

You don't have to pay for hosting - you just change the Nameservers at the registrar to point towards their web server.
You can take the domain back at any stage (just change the nameservers to wherever you host your website)
You will be paid for every ad click on the domain
You definitely do not give any passwords or auth keys!

There's no problem using a formerly parked domain as a new website.  The opposite can raise problems... if you, for whatever reason, let a highly developed website go and park the domain instead, Google will recognise the lack of 'proper' content and devalue its search ranking.

Building the site is a whole new discipline.  Not so much to do with domains as it is to Search Engine Optimisation (SEO).  (although a good domain gives you a great headstart).

But in a nutshell, get as much unique quality keyword rich content as you can and build as many possible incoming links as you can (Google judges each incoming link to a site as a 'vote' for the site & rewards it with a higher position in the search engines).

You can buy links but if Google catches you, you may get penalised!

The best way is to organically do this - create content that is good enough for people to voluntarily link to from their website and blogs etc.

Once the site is up and running you can then add ad feeds from Google which will automatically generate relevant ads to the webpage (clever stuff - Google will 'read' the page to get a sense on the subject and present advertsiser's ads that fit.  They then charge the advertiser & pass on a few cents to you, the website publisher)

Hope this helps!


----------



## marklar (27 May 2009)

Oh my goodness, that last post is pure gold!  Go on, antagonise Google and see what that gets you.

I'm done arguing with this guy, I have my suspicions why he is here as do some of you.  I urge you to exercise caution and Do Your Own Research before you consider investing in "Domaining" or "Domaineering" or whatever buzzword it is called these days.  Talk to your friends who work in I.T., explain what his business model is to them and see what reaction you get.

netfleet is in my ignore list now, but if anyone else would like to discuss anything I've raised in this thread with me by PM feel free to do so.

I now return you to your usual programme 

m.


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## MrBurns (28 May 2009)

marklar said:


> Oh my goodness, that last post is pure gold!  Go on, antagonise Google and see what that gets you.
> 
> I'm done arguing with this guy, I have my suspicions why he is here as do some of you.  I urge you to exercise caution and Do Your Own Research before you consider investing in "Domaining" or "Domaineering" or whatever buzzword it is called these days.  Talk to your friends who work in I.T., explain what his business model is to them and see what reaction you get.
> 
> ...




You're joking, no one is going to invest in domain names unless they know what they're doing unless they're complete dopes.


----------



## netfleet (28 May 2009)

marklar said:


> Oh my goodness, that last post is pure gold!  Go on, antagonise Google and see what that gets you.
> I'm done arguing with this guy,




Great!  I'm still a bit bemused as to the motivation behind your unprovoked attack so thank you for leaving me alone now...



marklar said:


> I urge you to exercise caution and Do Your Own Research before you consider investing in "Domaining" or "Domaineering" or whatever buzzword it is called these days.
> m.




Finally marklar, you're talking some sense.  "I urge you to exercise caution and Do Your Own Research before you consider investing..." should surely be a golden rule in any investment.  Well said.

In terms of risk, there is considerable risk in that there is a danger you rush out and register a heap of names that are essentially worthless (or worth less than their renewal fee).  

The best advice I could give to anyone investing in domains is to always have an end-user in mind.

Think what sort of business or person would place value in that name.

As an example of how not to do it, in the US, domainers started getting a bit carried away with the domain name market and ended up registering every single combination of 4-letter.com domains (all 456,976 of them)

Naturally when this "LLLL.com buyout" (4-letter.com domain) was completed, because there were no more available combinations, the price of these rare domains increased on the aftermarket.  It got to the stage where the absolute minimum you'd get for an LLLL.com was $50 or something.

So for a while there it was great - people had rushed out registered 1,000 names for $7 and could expect a bare minimum of $50,000 if they were to sell them all.

However this was not sustainable - it was in effect a kind of ponzi scheme and when this dawned on people and people realised there really was no value in JQXZ.com, prices collapsed and a lot of people lost a lot of money (the people who had bought in at $70 especially).

I'm sure you would have seen this exact situation in the stock market before.

So, the two pieces of advice I would give potential investors to mitigate risk would be:

1) Remember the end-user
2) Start small.  A domain here and a domain there is how all successful investors started - learning along the way.  Thankfully you can start with as little as $25.


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## theasxgorilla (29 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> You certainly suggested it.  Anyway, by the same token, I hope you will be advising your fellow forum members not to click on the ads on this forum which use the exact same technology.  The very ads that support the running of the forum.




Google says they'll do no evil.  Believe it or not, that counts for a lot.  The eyes of the cyber world watch their every move.  Unfortunately netfleet you have neither the profile nor the reputation.  With 26,000+ members and millions of monthly visitors ASF does.

Marklar is right, your sites/portals/whatever should not be trusted by any users.  You said yourself you're not that technical so you're probably not qualified to understand why.


----------



## Aussiest (29 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> No problem at all - you are very welcome.
> 
> Parking is very easy.
> 
> ...




Thanks NetFleet, that is very helpful.

Just as a matter of interest, how much is realistically possible to make with just one parked website? I'm assuming, not much. 

I'm gathering i would still have to pay for _some _sort of hosting?


----------



## Uncle Barry (29 May 2009)

Good morning.
Netfleet, mate don't think twice, your light years ahead of most and on the right track !

And to all the knockers, (no names, no addresses and its not me, ) I know someone who now makes over...over 1 mil AU Dollars with Netfleet's concept and or ideas.

Its 100% legal..... no problem there.

This person spends far less time in his 'business" than 99% of the posters here trying to make a dollar from the Markets.

And I think it would be fair to ask, how many people posting here make OVER 1mill from their efforts in the Market ?

Kind regards,
UB
Netfleet, mate, please don't tell anybody more, PLEASE !
Just forget to tell ANYONE.....got the message.

Think, there is only one cake, if you cut it into too many slices, you will only get a few crumbs ...think
thanks.


----------



## netfleet (29 May 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> Google says they'll do no evil.  Believe it or not, that counts for a lot.  The eyes of the cyber world watch their every move.  Unfortunately netfleet you have neither the profile nor the reputation.  With 26,000+ members and millions of monthly visitors ASF does.
> 
> Marklar is right, your sites/portals/whatever should not be trusted by any users.  You said yourself you're not that technical so you're probably not qualified to understand why.




I'm sure that ASF is a more trusted site than my site for you guys.  But that's not the point.  ING doesn't trust ASF anymore than it does my sites.  That's why they employ a third party affiliate company to vet all sites before doing business with them.

ASF and my sites have had to follow the exact same criteria to be allowed to show affiliate ads like these.

Dangerous to judge a site's trustworthiness by the number of visitors and/or members as well so keep that in mind.

Golden rule with any web use is, if you don't trust a site/link/company err on the side of caution.  Thankfully I think most visitors on my site see it for what it is - a fairly simple debit card comparison site where they can gather some info & then go on and apply for cards if they want.



Aussiest said:


> Thanks NetFleet, that is very helpful.
> 
> Just as a matter of interest, how much is realistically possible to make with just one parked website? I'm assuming, not much.
> 
> I'm gathering i would still have to pay for _some _sort of hosting?




You assume right 

My best parked domains earn a few dollars a day at best.  So, for one domain, it's hardly worth setting things up tbh.

However whilst $2/day doesn't sound like much, if your holding costs are just a $25 renewal every 2 years (or 3.4c/day) then it's fantastic.  All you then need to do is find a way to multiply by 10,000!

Then on top of that, you supplement your income with sales.

And no, you don't have to pay a cent in hosting (or other charges) because the parking company make a clip on your income. 

For each click, the advertiser pays Google say $1.20.  Google take their cut of 70c.  The Parking Company take a cut of 20c and you, the publisher get 50c.




Uncle Barry said:


> Good morning.
> Netfleet, mate don't think twice, your light years ahead of most and on the right track !
> 
> And to all the knockers, (no names, no addresses and its not me, ) I know someone who now makes over...over 1 mil AU Dollars with Netfleet's concept and or ideas.
> ...




Thanks Uncle Barry for the support!  I understand exactly what you are saying re the cake and for a couple of years, I was steadily acquiring profitable domain names on the quiet enjoying the lack of much serious competition.

However, these days, I've taken a change of direction and whilst I still acquire a handful of domains each day, I'm keen to see real trading activity build up like it has overseas and to do that, the industry needs more buyers and sellers.  To that end, I'm happy to talk with anyone who has an interest in the industry.

Sorry Uncle Barry, I see your point but even if the cake is all chopped up and in crumbs, there is still money to be made if people actually start trading their crumbs


----------



## theasxgorilla (29 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> Dangerous to judge a site's trustworthiness by the number of visitors and/or members as well so keep that in mind.




Some would like to suggest this is the case due to all the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) surrounding cyber threats but actually it's an extremely efficient method.  It's a matter of common business sense.  A site with a lot of visitors/members is an asset to the site owner.  Successful site owners, as a rule of thumb, are motivated to protect their asset and it's reputation, and more importantly, can afford to do so.



netfleet said:


> Golden rule with any web use is, if you don't trust a site/link/company err on the side of caution.




Exactly, so remind me again why I'd turn up to a domain name that I arrived at by accident with a list of links and start clicking through them???


----------



## netfleet (29 May 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> Some would like to suggest this is the case due to all the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) surrounding cyber threats but actually it's an extremely efficient method.  It's a matter of common business sense.  A site with a lot of visitors/members is an asset to the site owner.  Successful site owners, as a rule of thumb, are motivated to protect their asset and it's reputation, and more importantly, can afford to do so.




Wrong again.  Sheep mentality.  If lots of people are doing something it must be right & reputable.  For an example of a site with all sorts of dodgy characters have a look at http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ - and it has nearly 300,000 members - 3,000 online at any given time so, by your logic must be extremely reputable?



theasxgorilla said:


> Exactly, so remind me again why I'd turn up to a domain name that I arrived at by accident with a list of links and start clicking through them???




How do you mean arrive by accident?  If you are still talking about debitcard.com.au, you would probably have found it by searching for 'debit card' in Google, hardly by accident.  

Then you would realise it's a comparison site for debit cards.  

So, you might read a review of each card, then perhaps click a link which would take you to the official card provider's site where you then might apply for a card. (exactly like what happens if you click on the ads on this site)

Tell me, please, what is so wrong with that?


----------



## MrBurns (29 May 2009)

That site debitcard.com.au has a Google page rank of zero, so you must get bugger all traffic.


----------



## netfleet (29 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> That site debitcard.com.au has a Google page rank of zero, so you must get bugger all traffic.




You're right we don't get much.  However it is still number 2 in Google for a search 'debit card' so that's the main source.  Plus we get the 'holy grail' of domainers - type-in traffic.

Believe it or not but plenty of people just type in what they are looking for and add a 'com.au' into their address bar, assuming a site relevant to the subject will pop up.

Saying that though high PageRank doesn't necessarily imply high traffic.  ASF is only PR3 - I have sites which are PR5 which receive much less traffic.


----------



## theasxgorilla (29 May 2009)

netfleet said:


> Wrong again.  Sheep mentality.  If lots of people are doing something it must be right & reputable.  For an example of a site with all sorts of dodgy characters have a look at http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ - and it has nearly 300,000 members - 3,000 online at any given time so, by your logic must be extremely reputable?




We must be talking about two different things.  I'm referring to the technical security risk of clicking through links at one of these sites where someone has setup a link list while they squat a domain name, hoping to generate click through traffic and thereby an income, and eventually if they're lucky to sell the name itself for a profit.



netfleet said:


> How do you mean arrive by accident?  If you are still talking about debitcard.com.au, you would probably have found it by searching for 'debit card' in Google, hardly by accident.
> 
> Then you would realise it's a comparison site for debit cards.
> 
> ...




Again, we are probably talking about two different things.  I am referring to people registering purposely misspelled domain names, or slight variations of reputable domain names hoping to catch unbeknowst surfers and get them to click through links of the phony page.

What you describe above is not the business of domain name trading that you described in detail earlier.


----------



## MrBurns (29 May 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> We must be talking about two different things.  I'm referring to the technical security risk of clicking through links at one of these sites where someone has setup a link list while they squat a domain name, hoping to generate click through traffic and thereby an income, and eventually if they're lucky to sell the name itself for a profit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think the original post was aimed at discussing domain name trading but quickly moved to the use of domain names to make money as link farms.

Trading domain names would be like watching grass grow, it's not exactly a thriving business as far as I know.

Promoting domains to carry Google ads for instance to generate income is a big industry to the point where there are probably too many sites devoted to this purpose, they are usually boring and very obvious, BUT if it works who am I to knock it ?


----------



## Aussiest (30 May 2009)

Netfleet, 

Do you guys design/build websites?


----------



## netfleet (1 June 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> We must be talking about two different things.  I'm referring to the technical security risk of clicking through links at one of these sites where someone has setup a link list while they squat a domain name, hoping to generate click through traffic and thereby an income, and eventually if they're lucky to sell the name itself for a profit.
> 
> What you describe above is not the business of domain name trading that you described in detail earlier.




Ah OK.  Yes, two different things.  However, at some risk I will defend what you are talking about anyway.

Firstly, please read the definition of cybersquatting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersquatting  It all depends on a trademark or a brand.

Registering a completely generic name and getting Google to dump a bunch fo relevant ads on it with the hope to make a few cents through clicks and possibly sell it one day is not the same and, in my opinion, perfectly legitimate.

Whilst I admit, sites like these do not generally deliver as much value as a well thought out content rich commercial site on the subject matter, again, in my opinion, these links/ads are better than nothing at all. 

For an example, I'll ironically suggest www.cybersquatting.com.au (note:  please do not click on any links) as one of these type sites.



MrBurns said:


> I think the original post was aimed at discussing domain name trading but quickly moved to the use of domain names to make money as link farms.
> 
> Trading domain names would be like watching grass grow, it's not exactly a thriving business as far as I know.
> 
> Promoting domains to carry Google ads for instance to generate income is a big industry to the point where there are probably too many sites devoted to this purpose, they are usually boring and very obvious, BUT if it works who am I to knock it ?




Link farms are again a different  type of site - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_farm - sites that are put together withg links aimed at gaming Googles search algorithm.

I think it's a shame when shady activities like 'squatting' and 'link farms' get incorrectly tied up in this business.  It's not what it is about.

In terms of actual trading, you are right - trade is VERY thin on the ground.  It's a cagey affair with the lack of trading history (sale prices) meaning sellers err on the side of caution with high asking prices & buyers are conservative with their offers.  However when you can earn revenue in the interim with parking (see above) and sales when they do happen generally tend to give an ROI of at least 2000%, it's still a viable business.



Aussiest said:


> Netfleet,
> 
> Do you guys design/build websites?




We've developed a few but usually we outsource when we do it.  Our skills are rather in the domain and business side of web publishing.  If you are looking to put together a site, feel free to PM me and I can give details of some good designers.


----------



## theasxgorilla (25 June 2009)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/24/2607581.htm?section=australia

Ooops.  The limited is set to become limitless.  Here's where the comparisons between virtual and real real estate must end.

I heard a rumour the other day that it will soon become possible to just register _.companyname_. And that to do so you have to be _the_ company.


----------



## netfleet (13 August 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/24/2607581.htm?section=australia
> 
> Ooops.  The limited is set to become limitless.  Here's where the comparisons between virtual and real real estate must end.
> 
> I heard a rumour the other day that it will soon become possible to just register _.companyname_. And that to do so you have to be _the_ company.




Yes this could turn the whole domain industry on its head... if it works.

The idea is that anyone can apply to manage their own extension (the bit after the dot - eg 'com.au') and then 'sell' domain names to other people.

Eg a company could apply to run .kids.  So anyone in the world who has a kid related website could register mycompany.kids for example.  There's talk of a state government supported .sydney which would be for sydney based businesses to showcase their websites.

The opportunity is grabbing the premium generic domains (these releases are called 'landrushes' for good reason) for potential resale down the line.  Eg you register lawyers.sydney, cars.sydney etc.

The thing will be whether the public will take to them.

The cost of running a registry is considerable.  Costs US$200K to apply (non-refundable).  If multiple entities apply for the same one, the right to run the registry will be auctioned off to the higher bidder.

The cost to manage a registry will be a further $200K pa minimum (no marketing).

So to make back your US$400K investment in the first year, you'd need to convince a lot of people to buy domain names.  Say 25,000 people paying $20pa (allowing for a margin for the registrar).

That, IMO, is a big ask when most people already have a domain and, rightly or wrongly, are quite happy with it.

The other thing is confusion.  There's a real chance that the public might just be so confused they don't take to it at all and it's a big flop with the existing extensions remaining strong.

It will be very interesting that's for sure...


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## netfleet (20 January 2010)

I know this is an old thread but I thought you might be interested in a particular domain name that sold on Monday.

forex.com.au

Went for $30,000.


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## tigerboi (20 January 2010)

netfleet said:


> I know this is an old thread but I thought you might be interested in a particular domain name that sold on Monday.
> 
> forex.com.au
> 
> Went for $30,000.




netfleet you could be helpful to me...i work for an interstate transport company with 30+ trucks with depots in sydney,melbourne(2) & brisbane.i found out the boss didnt have a website so i bought the domain...what do you think?

ive scoped out some real big names that if they dont renew when the time comes im ready to pounce at 12.01am...any advice?tb


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## Aussiest (20 January 2010)

netfleet said:


> I know this is an old thread but I thought you might be interested in a particular domain name that sold on Monday.
> 
> forex.com.au
> 
> Went for $30,000.




Who was the lucky registrar?


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## netfleet (21 January 2010)

tigerboi said:


> netfleet you could be helpful to me...i work for an interstate transport company with 30+ trucks with depots in sydney,melbourne(2) & brisbane.i found out the boss didnt have a website so i bought the domain...what do you think?
> 
> ive scoped out some real big names that if they dont renew when the time comes im ready to pounce at 12.01am...any advice?tb




I'm not entirely clear what you mean.  If you've registered your bosses company name with a com.au at the end, you're basically cybersquatting.  Probably not too good for career prospects when they find out!!  If I've misunderstoopd and you've grabbed it for him then I apologise & good on you for taking the initiative to do so!

As for scoping big generic domains that may drop, that can be very luctarive.  Trouble is, sought after names will generally be available for no longer than 15 milliseconds before they are re-registered.  This occurs at a random time between 11:30am and 6pm AEST.  So, by hand, you don't have a chance!

Best bet is to use an Australian 'domain backorder' service.




Aussiest said:


> Who was the lucky registrar?




The new owner is a well known domainer.  I expect he will develop and use the power of the domain to drive heaps of forex related traffic to the site.  I'm sure you guys know better than I how lucrative that whole area is so I'm sure he'll get a return on the investment.

The lucky 'registrar' is Domain Central which is owned by Australian Style which is owned by someone you guys are probably very familiar with - Nick Bolton.

As they were the registrar that successfully grabbed the name for the new owner, in exchange for $30,000, they made a clear profit of about $29,980 (revenue less the wholesale cost of a 2 yr registration)


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## tigerboi (22 January 2010)

i must be a squatter then? i did grab it so no one else would however my truck has now done 850 kms on the clock,so id like a new one soon? it may pay off but atm the boss isnt into tech stuff.

shouldnt it be considered an astute business purchase rather than squatting?

if i see an opportunity im going to grab it
...tb


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## LukeMoulton (22 January 2010)

netfleet said:


> forex.com.au
> 
> Went for $30,000.




Nice! 

We had an aussie domain + website sell recently on Flippa for $20,000 mumzone.com.au


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## danbradster (22 January 2010)

I am an internet marketer, but I'd never do this.  I think domain squatters are very annoying.  They buy up thousands of domains, charge massive prices in the hopes of only selling 1% of their holdings, and with 10,000% markup this is fine for them.  This leaves no good or even decent domains available at their original price of $10, only decent domains for $1000+ or good domains for $10,000+.....at least that's how it works for .com.



LukeMoulton said:


> Nice!
> 
> We had an aussie domain + website sell recently on Flippa for $20,000 mumzone.com.au




Spam, spam, spam.  Thanks for that LukeMoulton, employee of Flippa.com.


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