# In memory of the dead of 9/11



## Garpal Gumnut (11 September 2008)

Let us spare a few moments thought for the thousands murdered by Islamic Terrorists on this day seven years ago at the Twin towers and elsewhere in the US.

I enclose a picture of "the falling man". 

Their murderers need to be chased to the ends of the earth to ensure the continuation of the freedoms given to us by the Enlightenment. 

gg


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## Timmy (11 September 2008)

Thank-you GG, well said.


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 September 2009)

Lest we forget the innocents killed by the Islamist godbotherers.

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 September 2009)

OK my language is a bit strong, a cousin of mine was killed in the Twin Towers.

However the lack of response to this post on such an important anniversary points to the lassitude of the West and the strength of the Islamists.

Its a bit like the situation before WW2 when the European and North american governments acquiesced to Hitler's fascist ideology.

Let us hope another Churchill is out there to draw the line.

Please do not reply if you agree, until tomorrow, as it will be interesting to see this important anniversary pass without comment.

gg


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## Knobby22 (11 September 2009)

For me the significance was ruined when Bush used the feeling we had to let him attack Iraq for his own reasons and stuffing up the war with Afghanistan.
Now we are going to end up with mullahs running Iraq. 

Pure hate is not a good enough reason to let politicians twist things.


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## Uncle Barry (11 September 2009)

Good evening.
GG, "OK my language is a bit strong"

*NOT strong enough and NOT descriptive, enough !*
Kind regards,
UB


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## Judd (11 September 2009)

And let us remember that the deaths on that day included people from some 90 nations.  And also remember that of those workers who died in the Twin Towers there were also followers of Islam who did not, like most Muslims, have murder in their hearts.


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## Bobby (11 September 2009)

Just can't understand why that turd osama binladen still is on the lose .

 The answer could be ~ why do the billion + followers of Islam do little to help catch the rat ?

Ready to be called a racist again  :


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## Happy (11 September 2009)

I am sad, that this continues to this day.
There are suicide attacks almost daily.

We had some attacks planned and picked up in Australia too, but prosecution process is drawn and some penalties give enough time to plot things 5 or 6 times in a lifetime if one is determined.

We have to go by the book, we cannot do this, we cannot do that, and we cannot even deprive sleep of interrogated person because it is naughty.
Getting information out of suspects is almost impossible to achieve.

How I see it? 
Well I see that DEMOCRACY is like gangrene it is well advanced already.


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## wayneL (11 September 2009)

Happy said:


> How I see it?
> Well I see that DEMOCRACY is like gangrene it is well advanced already.




...and your answer Happy?

Condolences GG


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## Happy (11 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> ...and your answer Happy?
> 
> Condolences GG





Few changes, before it is too late.


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## wayneL (11 September 2009)

Happy said:


> Few changes, before it is too late.




such as?


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## Uncle Barry (11 September 2009)

Such as,

If you have the NUKE, then don't fool around, use the blo...dy thing and the next lot won't then think its fun, because they will know EVERYTHING they stand for will be melted into ash !

UB


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## Bobby (11 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Such as,
> 
> If you have the NUKE, then don't fool around, use the blo...dy thing and the next lot won't then think its fun, because they will know EVERYTHING they stand for will be melted into ash !
> 
> UB




Tell us more UB , where would you have nuked back then ?


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> OK my language is a bit strong, a cousin of mine was killed in the Twin Towers.
> 
> However the lack of response to this post on such an important anniversary points to the lassitude of the West and the strength of the Islamists.
> 
> ...




Are you a yank GG? It's typical arrognace of yanks to think that 3,000 of their citizens getting barbecued should make the world stop 8 years after the event. The United States is and has been the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth for the last century, 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to the atrocities committed by the United States. And no, you don't get a pass for knowing someone who died, that's just self-indulgent dribble.


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## nunthewiser (12 September 2009)

uh oh 

well that post should liven up this thread a bit

however i do agree on this point 



> The United States is and has been the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth for the last century, 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to the atrocities committed by the United States.


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## wayneL (12 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Such as,
> 
> If you have the NUKE, then don't fool around, use the blo...dy thing and the next lot won't then think its fun, because they will know EVERYTHING they stand for will be melted into ash !
> 
> UB




The problem is that you melt the innocents to ash (to use your mixed metaphor), poison the earth, the atmosphere etc. You also condone anyone else with some sort of grievance with a nuke to do the same.

Then you have Bobby's point; where exactly do you drop it/them?

Such dramatic escalation can only provoke a further "chain reaction" of unintended consequences. 

If they do have suitcase nukes, as suspected, they will go right on ahead and use them on us.

There is also the lingering doubts as to who the exact perpetrators of 911 were. I'm not convinced by the official version and neither are a lot of people.


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## wayneL (12 September 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> uh oh
> 
> well that post should liven up this thread a bit
> 
> however i do agree on this point



It's a point that has a lot of sympathy out there.


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## nunthewiser (12 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> It's a point that has a lot of sympathy out there.





my oath it does , including mine for those that are or were affected by this disgraceful and sad act

i was agreeing with part of dhukkas  post re the u.s


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## Tink (12 September 2009)

Yep a sad day..

I still remember turning on the TV that morning wondering if it was for real or a movie?

I couldnt believe it..


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## It's Snake Pliskin (12 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> *will be melted into ash* !UB



Uncle Barry,
Do you see the error in the above quote. I'm having problems with my eyesight tonight, but it did stand out after persisting with the flash to the right.


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## wayneL (12 September 2009)

FYI

In today's Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ak-Barack-Obama-9-11-government-cover-up.html



> America was behind the 9/11 atrocities, says actor Charlie Sheen
> By PAUL THOMPSON
> Last updated at 10:38 AM on 11th September 2009
> Comments (303)
> ...


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> Are you a yank GG? It's typical arrognace of yanks to think that 3,000 of their citizens getting barbecued should make the world stop 8 years after the event. The United States is and has been the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth for the last century, 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to the atrocities committed by the United States. And no, you don't get a pass for knowing someone who died, that's just self-indulgent dribble.




No dhukka, I'm not a yank.

You have your opinion and I have mine. The difference between the West and Islamists is that you are free to express your opinions and don't have some godbothring nutter with an explosive belt or a plane full of innocent travellers bearing down on you as you go about your business.

9/11 is not a drop in the ocean. Some folk tend to criticise the US for anything that goes wrong in the rest of the world, Idi Amin, Karzai, Bin Laden, Castro and other patriarchal godormarxbothering monsters. But their own societies threw them up.

I take your point about not expecting a free pass for grief. Its a normal human emotion and perhaps shouldn't be expressed in a forum that throws up geniuses like you.

At least I know what I am now.

gg


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## Tink (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> It's typical arrognace of yanks to think that 3,000 of their citizens getting barbecued should make the world stop 8 years after the event. The United States is and has been the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth for the last century, 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to the atrocities committed by the United States. And no, you don't get a pass for knowing someone who died, that's just self-indulgent dribble.




Whats government decisions got to do with innocent lives lost?

I dont understand this reasoning..

I think all big atrocities should be reflected upon, who cares how far down the track and where...

History should never be forgotten


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## OzWaveGuy (12 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> FYI
> 
> In today's Daily Mail:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ak-Barack-Obama-9-11-government-cover-up.html




Most of the points that Sheen has raised are fair points. As with any murder investigation, all loose ends need to be tied, there shouldn't been any issue in tying these loose ends up (yet there is).


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## websman (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> No dhukka, I'm not a yank.
> 
> You have your opinion and I have mine. The difference between the West and Islamists is that you are free to express your opinions and don't have some godbothring nutter with an explosive belt or a plane full of innocent travellers bearing down on you as you go about your business.
> 
> ...





Thanks for the great posts Garpal Gumnut!


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## websman (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> Are you a yank GG? It's typical arrognace of yanks to think that 3,000 of their citizens getting barbecued should make the world stop 8 years after the event. The United States is and has been the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth for the last century, 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to the atrocities committed by the United States. And no, you don't get a pass for knowing someone who died, that's just self-indulgent dribble.





Ignorance at it's best.... If everybody was like this fine individual, terrorist would have a much easier job.


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> No dhukka, I'm not a yank.
> 
> You have your opinion and I have mine. The difference between the West and Islamists is that you are free to express your opinions and don't have some godbothring nutter with an explosive belt or a plane full of innocent travellers bearing down on you as you go about your business.
> 
> ...




But that's the whole point GG, the US has never been able to mind it's own business, consistently interfering in the lives and affairs of other nations when it has no business doing so. The message that Senator Ron Paul has argued about 'blowback' is a prescient one, ie. if you meddle in other people's affairs, expect some retaliation.


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

Tink said:


> Whats government decisions got to do with innocent lives lost?
> 
> I dont understand this reasoning..
> 
> ...




Precisely, 9/11 was not a big atrocity, the outpouring of reflection is disproportionate to the event and to have someone come on a forum and castigate a largely Australian audience about their lack of reflection reeks of arrogance.


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## wayneL (12 September 2009)

FYI :hide:


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

websman said:


> Ignorance at it's best.... If everybody was like this fine individual, terrorist would have a much easier job.




A typical throw away line, noone is suggesting that you tolerate terrorism, just realize that the actions of your government have repercussions.


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## Sean K (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> Are you a yank GG? It's typical arrognace of yanks to think that 3,000 of their citizens getting barbecued should make the world stop 8 years after the event.



I am not surprised you have tried to hijack this thread away from it's true intent.

I can not say any more as I will have to infract myself.


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## Uncle Barry (12 September 2009)

Good morning,
Dear Snake P,

"will be melted into ash" 
"Do you see the error in the above quote. I'm having problems with my eyesight tonight, but it did stand out after persisting with the flash to the right."

*NO !*
Not at all, not one wee little bit !
And I ask you, have you seen a human body that has had 1000degrees plus applied to it, for a time, if you had, you would not be asking this rather silly question.

Kind regards,
UB
now, I don't think you need me to carry on about what happens to a body etc, *more so when we start to remember the horror of September 11....... *
thank you !


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 September 2009)

Its sad to think of all those people 8 years ago, heading off on holidays or business trips on planes, riding the subway into work, driving or walking to the Towers, cleaners, hospitality workers, police, firies, finance workers, tourists, not realising that it would be their last day on earth , all because of a warped belief in god by the Islamist murderers.

gg


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## websman (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Its sad to think of all those people 8 years ago, heading off on holidays or business trips on planes, riding the subway into work, driving or walking to the Towers, cleaners, hospitality workers, police, firies, finance workers, tourists, not realising that it would be their last day on earth , all because of a warped belief in god by the Islamist murderers.
> 
> gg




amen...


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## websman (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> A typical throw away line, noone is suggesting that you tolerate terrorism, just realize that the actions of your government have repercussions.




You're a sick individual.....


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## It's Snake Pliskin (12 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good morning,
> Dear Snake P,
> 
> "will be melted into ash"
> ...



Good Morning,

Dear Uncle B,

Let's try this:

melted to liquid, or burnt to ash. Nothing melts to ash.

Actually I have seen the shadow of a body that is still on the steps of a bank from the blast in Hiroshima.


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## Mr J (12 September 2009)

Tink said:


> Whats government decisions got to do with innocent lives lost?
> 
> I dont understand this reasoning..
> 
> ...




It can be argued that few are innocent. Even children can pick a side.

Attrocities should be reflected upon, only so we know what we're capable of and what to expect in the future. History shouldn't be forgotten, but much of it is overlooked. Such as some people talking of 9/11 and forgetting everything the US has done to mess in other nation's affairs. Of course, the US has been no worse than any other historical superpower.



			
				Garpal Gumnut said:
			
		

> Its sad to think of all those people 8 years ago, heading off on holidays or business trips on planes, riding the subway into work, driving or walking to the Towers, cleaners, hospitality workers, police, firies, finance workers, tourists, not realising that it would be their last day on earth , all because of a warped belief in god by the Islamist murderers.




They could have been hit by a car, bus, mugged and murdered on the street, come home and find their spouse with another person, flip and kill them both. Not so long ago that French plane dipped into the Atlantic. Not so long ago a Tsunami wiped out a couple of hundred thousand people. Once we die, the damage is done - it doesn't really matter how we die.


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## dbcok (12 September 2009)

As long as we mourn other humans that have been killed ,before their time,in tragic  circumstances-be they Australians,Americans ,Afghanis,Iraqis,Jews,Palestinians etc.
The information that we are fed puts undue emphasis on certain groups.Some  seem to be  more worthy human beings than others.


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Its sad to think of all those people 8 years ago, heading off on holidays or business trips on planes, riding the subway into work, driving or walking to the Towers, cleaners, hospitality workers, police, firies, finance workers, tourists, not realising that it would be their last day on earth , all because of a warped belief in god by the Islamist murderers.
> 
> gg






As others have pointed out, innocent deaths are not unique to 9/11. People die every day going about their business - a drunk driver swerves into oncoming traffic and wipes out a family, a juiced-up meth-head holds up a convenience store and shoots the clerk.   

Self-serving arguments that emphasize the loss of innocents prevents  important questions being asked and results in an opportunity lost. Why do a select group (that do not represent the majority) of Islamic fundamentalists want to murder US citizens? Is it because of radically misguided religious beliefs? Most definitely that is part of it. But could it also be because of decades of US foreign policy of meddling in the affairs of others?  Is it not reasonable to expect some retaliation when you invade other countries and usurp governments around the world under false pretexts? 

Asking these questions does not prevent you from tracking down those responsible and bringing them to justice. It doesn't represent adopting a soft stance against terrorism. It is the position of a thoughtful reflective people, instead of a narrow-minded nationalism that uses the same justifications as the alleged terrorists.


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## Uncle Barry (12 September 2009)

Dear Snake.



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Good Morning,
> 
> Dear Uncle B,
> 
> ...




Sorry, you are very wrong, I said before.
When a human body ............. hey, not going down this path, more so today !
Suggest you just phone a Undertaker and talk to him/her/them about what happens .

If you chose to think other wise, well bully for you, your problem if you just cannot understand.

The shadow, your claim, do you think they was nothing... only a shadow..surely not ?

The ash from a human body is that super fine, its like super fine talcum powder and blows away so easy, YOU just might be suprised.


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> 9/11 is not a drop in the ocean.
> gg




It certainly isn't, if that happened in Collins St Melbourne or Pitt St Sydney imagine how you'd feel then, and they would if they could, don't doubt it.

Any animal that cuts the throats of air hostesses doesn't deserve to just die they should suffer first.

They should just nuke any place that supports Muslim extremism, would save a lot of time and the lives of worthwhile humans.


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> As others have pointed out, innocent deaths are not unique to 9/11. People die every day going about their business - a drunk driver swerves into oncoming traffic and wipes out a family, a juiced-up meth-head holds up a convenience store and shoots the clerk.
> 
> Self-serving arguments that emphasize the loss of innocents prevents  important questions being asked and results in an opportunity lost. Why do a select group (that do not represent the majority) of Islamic fundamentalists want to murder US citizens? Is it because of radically misguided religious beliefs? Most definitely that is part of it. But could it also be because of decades of US foreign policy of meddling in the affairs of others?  Is it not reasonable to expect some retaliation when you invade other countries and usurp governments around the world under false pretexts?
> 
> Asking these questions does not prevent you from tracking down those responsible and bringing them to justice. It doesn't represent adopting a soft stance against terrorism. It is the position of a thoughtful reflective people, instead of a narrow-minded nationalism that uses the same justifications as the alleged terrorists.




I think the US has done a pretty good job of being global policeman, not an easy job and if it wasn't for them you might be speaking Japanese now so don't go assuming the moral high ground.

Nothing justifies what the Islamis terrorists do ,they are sub human and should be exterminated like any other vermin.

The US is just about the only thing that stands between us and the forces of evil.

I'm with them all the way.


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## Krusty the Klown (12 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think the US has done a pretty good job of being global policeman, not an easy job and if it wasn't for them you might be speaking Japanese now so don't go assuming the moral high ground.




Not "might" be - "WOULD" be speaking Japanese. 

The Yanks stopped them at the Battle of the Coral Sea, Guadalcanal and we stopped them in New Guinea.

All the Poms did to help us like they said they would was surrender Singapore.

The plans for the occupation of Australia during 1942 by the Japanese are still in the National archives of Japan.

The Australian Government were prepared to give up all territory north of the Queensland border. The tank traps are still visible around here.

That's why we support them in any military action they enter - we are still their ally and this alliance is the only way the Australian governments (Liberal or Labor) can protect the nation.


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## Peanut (12 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think the US has done a pretty good job of being global policeman, not an easy job and if it wasn't for them you might be speaking Japanese now so don't go assuming the moral high ground.




Hear Hear.

As for the likes of those individuals who describe the US of A as terrorist nation - get help.  Dial 1800-I-have-an-inferiority-complex.

Lets hope we never see another terrorist atrocity remotely resemblying the scale of 9/11.


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## dhukka (12 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think the US has done a pretty good job of being global policeman, not an easy job and if it wasn't for them you might be speaking Japanese now so don't go assuming the moral high ground.
> 
> Nothing justifies what the Islamis terrorists do ,they are sub human and should be exterminated like any other vermin.
> 
> ...




This is why you shouldn't leave your keyboard unattended in the presence of children.


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

dhukka said:


> This is why you shouldn't leave your keyboard unattended in the presence of children.




Spoken like a true hypocrite, knocking the US while enjoying their protection.


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## Stan 101 (12 September 2009)

It certainly was a terrible tragedy. Let's just hope 8 years on that those affected directly have started to get back on track with their lives and the need for revenge diminishes.

Revenge will only mean more innocent people and their families will needlessly suffer.


cheers,


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> It certainly was a terrible tragedy. Let's just hope 8 years on that those affected directly have started to get back on track with their lives and the need for revenge diminishes.
> Revenge will only mean more innocent people and their families will needlessly suffer.
> cheers,




I don't think you'd ever gert over that.

There's a small element of revenge but the urgent task is to disable the forces that did this so it cant happen again, a damn hard job.


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## Stan 101 (12 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I don't think you'd ever gert over that.




I agree, but you do learn to cope and find strategies to get on with life. You never forget but one day it just doesn't hurt as much as it once did. You tend to remember the good times of the lost ones and even further down the track you may actually smile when you think of them or smell a scent you associated with them.

It's the healing process. That said, late at night when the mind wanders tears can still flow.




cheers,


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> I agree, but you do learn to cope and find strategies to get on with life. You never forget but one day it just doesn't hurt as much as it once did. You tend to remember the good times of the lost ones and even further down the track you may actually smile when you think of them or smell a scent you associated with them.
> It's the healing process. That said, late at night when the mind wanders tears can still flow.
> cheers,




Yes, you go on because you have to, you remember fondly and tears do flow, the loss of a friend or loved one is the greatest reality check you can get.
The senseless way these lives were taken would be hard to come to terms with though.
These people would have a lot of support though, and they need it.

Doesn't seem like 8 years, they aren't able to put it our of their minds for very long it's such a large issue.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yes, you go on because you have to, you remember fondly and tears do flow, the loss of a friend or loved one is the greatest reality check you can get.
> The senseless way these lives were taken would be hard to come to terms with though.
> These people would have a lot of support though, and they need it.
> 
> Doesn't seem like 8 years, they aren't able to put it our of their minds for very long it's such a large issue.




Thanks Burnsie,

May we end this thread for another year?

gg


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## MrBurns (12 September 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks Burnsie,
> 
> May we end this thread for another year?
> 
> gg




Request granted ........RIP all those lost.


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## gav (13 September 2009)

Krusty the Klown said:


> Not "might" be - "WOULD" be speaking Japanese.
> 
> The Yanks stopped them at the Battle of the Coral Sea, Guadalcanal and we stopped them in New Guinea.
> 
> All the Poms did to help us like they said they would was surrender Singapore.




During my time in the Solomon Islands I saw a lot of the wreckage left behind from the battle that occurred some 50 years before I arrived.  Whilst I marched past old wreckages, it sent a chill down my spine imagining what it must have been like back then.  It made me realise how easy I had it compared to the soldiers of another era.


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## Krusty the Klown (13 September 2009)

gav said:


> During my time in the Solomon Islands I saw a lot of the wreckage left behind from the battle that occurred some 50 years before I arrived.  Whilst I marched past old wreckages, it sent a chill down my spine imagining what it must have been like back then.  It made me realise how easy I had it compared to the soldiers of another era.




I have some friends who dived on some of the wrecks in Ironbottom Sound, they said it was like a time capsule. It would be very interesting to see.


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## Mr J (13 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Revenge will only mean more innocent people and their families will needlessly suffer.




Such as the 100,000 or so dead Iraqis that had nothing to do with it? I hope they're happy, because I can't imagine that will lessen the motivation of those that have similar goals to those who acted in 9/11.


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## Sean K (14 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Such as the 100,000 or so dead Iraqis that had nothing to do with it? I hope they're happy, because I can't imagine that will lessen the motivation of those that have similar goals to those who acted in 9/11.



The coalition deliberately killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians?

Crikey.


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## Stan 101 (14 September 2009)

kennas said:


> The coalition deliberately killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians?
> 
> Crikey.




Probably not intentionally but it is a bloody poor record anyway you try to fudge the figures. Imagine any other industry where such atrocious "mistakes" go unchecked. hell, the Japanese kill a few bloody whales and the outrage is worldwide. Kill 100000 human beings and it's justified because of 9/11.

According to Dr David Kilcullen (senior advisor to Condoleezza Rice and General David Petraeus) *over 3000 civilians each and every week were killed in Iraq in 2006.*

That is basically a 9/11 victim rate being played out every week. Tough justice. Imagine if that were to be happening on US soil...This sort of death goes on and the West wonders why hate filled revenge just keeps growing...

They kill 3000 of ours and we kill 100000 of them..and on and on.They use sneaky tactics, we use a sledgehammer. It is all killing.


Like I said in a previous post, it's just a bloody tragedy all round..


Cheers,


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## Timmy (14 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> According to Dr David Kilcullen (senior advisor to Condoleezza Rice and General David Petraeus) *over 3000 civilians each and every week were killed in Iraq in 2006.*




Stan are you implying by posting this quote that it was the coalition forces that were killing 3,000 civilians per week?


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## Stan 101 (14 September 2009)

Timmy said:


> Stan are you implying by posting this quote that it was the coalition forces that were killing 3,000 civilians per week?




The victims are casualties of war either directly or indirectly. US don't invade Iraq, those people don't die the way they did.


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## Timmy (14 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> The victims are casualties of war either directly or indirectly. US don't invade Iraq, those people don't die the way they did.




So, you are saying the coalition forces killed these people?


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## swm79 (14 September 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Probably not intentionally but it is a bloody poor record anyway you try to fudge the figures. Imagine any other industry where such atrocious "mistakes" go unchecked. hell, the Japanese kill a few bloody whales and the outrage is worldwide. Kill 100000 human beings and it's justified because of 9/11.
> 
> According to Dr David Kilcullen (senior advisor to Condoleezza Rice and General David Petraeus) *over 3000 civilians each and every week were killed in Iraq in 2006.*
> 
> ...




Spottswoode: From what I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.N.C.E has gathered, it would be 9/11 times 100.
Gary Johnston: 9/11 times a hundred? Jesus, that's...
Spottswoode: Yes, 91,100.
Chris: Basically, all the worst parts of the bible.


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## dbcok (14 September 2009)

Regarding civilian casualties in Iraq.
Isn't the invading power (coalition) responsible for the safety of the civilians ?
They overturned Saddam and took responsiblility ,in that way the coalition was culpable.
However I do not think that coalition either understood or were really fair dinkum about the safety of civilians.
Perhaps they were just plain incompetent.


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## Krusty the Klown (14 September 2009)

dbcok said:


> Regarding civilian casualties in Iraq.
> Isn't the invading power (coalition) responsible for the safety of the civilians ?
> 
> Perhaps they were just plain incompetent.




More like too much committee decisions by committees thousands of miles away from the ground. Communicating these policies through networks where intentions get misinterpreted. Like Chinese whispers.

The estimates of the amount of illegal deaths when Saddam were in power were about 100,000 per year for 20 years, so the Coalition may have actually reduced the ongoing death toll.


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## Mr J (14 September 2009)

kennas said:


> The coalition deliberately killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians?
> 
> Crikey.




If you read the post I quoted, you will see that intention has nothing to do with it. The US wanted revenge, and the result has been a bloodbath.



Timmy said:


> Stan are you implying by posting this quote that it was the coalition forces that were killing 3,000 civilians per week?




Of course they are. Not all intentionally or directly, but that doesn't take away from the fact that these people are dying because of the coalition's presence.



> The estimates of the amount of illegal deaths when Saddam were in power were about 100,000 per year for 20 years, so the Coalition may have actually reduced the ongoing death toll.




That figure does not seem reasonable to me, especially if it doesn't include the Iran-Iraq war. If you are including the war, that is not a reasonable figure as Iraq was not in a state of war when the Coalition forces invaded.


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## Krusty the Klown (14 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> That figure does not seem reasonable to me, especially if it doesn't include the Iran-Iraq war. If you are including the war, that is not a reasonable figure as Iraq was not in a state of war when the Coalition forces invaded.




That figure was from when Saddam came to power until he was deposed, so yes it does include the conflict with Iran.

Does it really matter whether Iraq was at war in 2003? 

The people of Iraq were still dying after the Iran war finished, right up until Saddam was chased out of power. Remember the Kurds?

That figure is what I read somewhere at the time of the Coalition entry. I don't actually remember if the figure comes from the coalition or the independant press.


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## dbcok (14 September 2009)

It isn't a Saddam versus coalition competion .We will never know the numbers regarding the death toll under either.
However as Colon Powell  said something like "we broke it (Iraq) and now we own it"
Well the coalition were not successful in providing for the security of the population.
Indeed they handed over to a government that has inherited the same security problems.It is still broke.


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## Mr J (14 September 2009)

Krusty the Klown said:


> That figure was from when Saddam came to power until he was deposed, so yes it does include the conflict with Iran.
> 
> Does it really matter whether Iraq was at war in 2003??




It does matter if people weren't dying at a rate of 100k per year when the coalition invaded.


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## Krusty the Klown (15 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> It does matter if people weren't dying at a rate of 100k per year when the coalition invaded.




Ok, I see what you're saying.

What I'm trying to say is that if the death toll has started to reduce p.a. then that can't be a bad thing.

The problem before the coalition went there is most of the deaths were unreported.


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## Timmy (11 September 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us spare a few moments thought for the thousands murdered by Islamic Terrorists on this day seven years ago at the Twin towers and elsewhere in the US.
> 
> I enclose a picture of "the falling man".
> 
> ...




Indeed.  Thank-you for this thread GG.


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 September 2011)

We head in to the week which will commemorate the tenth anniversary of 9/11, a cowardly act, committed by quasi-religious fascists and godbothering lunatics.

It is moot to consider how the world has changed since then, and how little the murderers gained by the perpetration of the atrocity.

It is good that the West is prepared to defend and protect the principles of enlightened freedom and democracy which were defended in wars past.

It is to our credit that we still defend the right of those fascists and their Australian apologisers to disagree with the ideals of freedom and democracy as long as they do so peacefully.

gg


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## orr (8 September 2011)

Does anyone remember in those hectic days of reportage following the attacks, a clip of a posse of reporters hurriedly folowing Muhomad Attas father, trying to escape them, through the streets of Cairo and then he stops turns to them and says "yes, yes I'll will give you an interview, I'll give you an interview for $20,000. Made payable to the Orphans of Palestine" the following claque stopped to a man, mute, and he slowly walked away

Fisk asked this most important of all Questions then, and he asks it again now.  
*For 10 Years, We've Lied to Ourselves to Avoid Asking the One Real Question*

Robert Fisk's ZSpace Page
Join ZSpace


By their books, ye shall know them.

I'm talking about the volumes, the libraries – nay, the very halls of literature – which the international crimes against humanity of 11 September 2001 have spawned. Many are spavined with pseudo-patriotism and self-regard, others rotten with the hopeless mythology of CIA/Mossad culprits, a few (from the Muslim world, alas) even referring to the killers as "boys", almost all avoiding the one thing which any cop looks for after a street crime: the motive.

Why so, I ask myself, after 10 years of war, hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, lies and hypocrisy and betrayal and sadistic torture by the Americans – our MI5 chaps just heard, understood, maybe looked, of course no touchy-touchy nonsense – and the Taliban? Have we managed to silence ourselves as well as the world with our own fears? Are we still not able to say those three sentences: The 19 murderers of 9/11 claimed they were Muslims. They came from a place called the Middle East. Is there a problem out there?

American publishers first went to war in 2001 with massive photo-memorial volumes. Their titles spoke for themselves: Above Hallowed Ground, So Others Might Live, Strong of Heart, What We Saw, The Final Frontier, A Fury for God, The Shadow of Swords... Seeing this stuff piled on newsstands across America, who could doubt that the US was going to go to war? And long before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, another pile of tomes arrived to justify the war after the war. Most prominent among them was ex-CIA spook Kenneth Pollack's The Threatening Storm – and didn't we all remember Churchill's The Gathering Storm? – which, needless to say, compared the forthcoming battle against Saddam with the crisis faced by Britain and France in 1938.

There were two themes to this work by Pollack – "one of the world's leading experts on Iraq," the blurb told readers, among whom was Fareed Zakaria ("one of the most important books on American foreign policy in years," he drivelled) – the first of which was a detailed account of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction; none of which, as we know, actually existed. The second theme was the opportunity to sever the "linkage" between "the Iraq issue and the Arab-Israeli conflict".

The Palestinians, deprived of the support of powerful Iraq, went the narrative, would be further weakened in their struggle against Israeli occupation. Pollack referred to the Palestinians' "vicious terrorist campaign" – but without any criticism of Israel. He wrote of "weekly terrorist attacks followed by Israeli responses (sic)", the standard Israeli version of events. America's bias towards Israel was no more than an Arab "belief". Well, at least the egregious Pollack had worked out, in however slovenly a fashion, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had something to do with 9/11, even if Saddam had not.

In the years since, of course, we've been deluged with a rich literature of post-9/11 trauma, from the eloquent The Looming Tower of Lawrence Wright to the Scholars for 9/11 Truth, whose supporters have told us that the plane wreckage outside the Pentagon was dropped by a C-130, that the jets that hit the World Trade Centre were remotely guided, that United 93 was shot down by a US missile, etc. Given the secretive, obtuse and sometimes dishonest account presented by the White House – not to mention the initial hoodwinking of the official 9/11 commission staff – I am not surprised that millions of Americans believe some of this, let alone the biggest government lie: that Saddam was behind 9/11. Leon Panetta, the CIA's newly appointed autocrat, repeated this same lie in Baghdad only this year.

There have been movies, too. Flight 93 re-imagined what may (or may not) have happened aboard the plane which fell into a Pennsylvania wood. Another told a highly romanticised story, in which the New York authorities oddly managed to prevent almost all filming on the actual streets of the city. And now we're being deluged with TV specials, all of which have accepted the lie that 9/11 did actually change the world – it was the Bush/Blair repetition of this dangerous notion that allowed their thugs to indulge in murderous invasions and torture – without for a moment asking why the press and television went along with the idea. So far, not one of these programmes has mentioned the word "Israel" – and Brian Lapping's Thursday night ITV offering mentioned "Iraq" once, without explaining the degree to which 11 September 2001 provided the excuse for this 2003 war crime. How many died on 9/11? Almost 3,000. How many died in the Iraq war? Who cares?

Publication of the official 9/11 report – in 2004, but read the new edition of 2011 – is indeed worth study, if only for the realities it does present, although its opening sentences read more like those of a novel than of a government inquiry. "Tuesday ... dawned temperate and nearly cloudless in the eastern United States... For those heading to an airport, weather conditions could not have been better for a safe and pleasant journey. Among the travellers were Mohamed Atta..." Were these guys, I ask myself, interns at Time magazine?

But I'm drawn to Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan whose The Eleventh Day confronts what the West refused to face in the years that followed 9/11. "All the evidence ... indicates that Palestine was the factor that united the conspirators – at every level," they write. One of the organisers of the attack believed it would make Americans concentrate on "the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel". Palestine, the authors state, "was certainly the principal political grievance ... driving the young Arabs (who had lived) in Hamburg".

The motivation for the attacks was "ducked" even by the official 9/11 report, say the authors. The commissioners had disagreed on this "issue" – clichÃ© code word for "problem" – and its two most senior officials, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, were later to explain: "This was sensitive ground ...Commissioners who argued that al-Qa'ida was motivated by a religious ideology – and not by opposition to American policies – rejected mentioning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... In their view, listing US support for Israel as a root cause of al-Qa'ida's opposition to the United States indicated that the United States should reassess that policy." And there you have it.

So what happened? The commissioners, Summers and Swan state, "settled on vague language that circumvented the issue of motive". There's a hint in the official report – but only in a footnote which, of course, few read. In other words, we still haven't told the truth about the crime which – we are supposed to believe – "changed the world for ever". Mind you, after watching Obama on his knees before Netanyahu last May, I'm really not surprised.

When the Israeli Prime Minister gets even the US Congress to grovel to him, the American people are not going to be told the answer to the most important and "sensitive" question of 9/11: why?


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## Tink (8 September 2011)

A very sad moment in history and heartbreaking hearing the stories again.

I feel for all the families that lost their loved ones.


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## Calliope (8 September 2011)

orr said:


> When the Israeli Prime Minister gets even the US Congress to grovel to him, the American people are not going to be told the answer to the most important and "sensitive" question of 9/11: why?




Okay, so you believe the 9/11 attacks were justified. Do you have any other agenda besides blaming the Jews?


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## Sdajii (8 September 2011)

The terrorists really did win with '911'. They wanted to freak the western world out, they wanted to financially harm the western world, they wanted to kill people and they wanted us to lose freedom. They did all that, probably to a far greater extent than they hoped, but only because we're stupid.

Even on the actual day, more people probably died at work in accidents than were killed in the attack. But still, people fear terrorism more than going to work, driving a car, riding a horse, having a boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse or just about all of the things we commonly do which are more likely to kill us than terrorism. So we're stupid for being scared of it. Financially they screwed us because we got scared, and because we put an insane amount of money into securities measure - wonderful things like screening innocent travellers at airports, wasting time, costing money, freaking them out more, confiscating innocent items (I had a spoon confiscated from me for Pete's sake! What was I going to do? Feed the pilot some soup?  ). Financially screwing us takes money away from things like healthcare, road safety programmes, educating kids not to use drugs, etc etc, and the vast majority of deaths from 911 have been indirect ones resulting from those issues. All the restrictive laws we now have, as well as our collective mindset really has resulted in a big loss of freedom. Remember how much more relaxed things were 10 years ago? How much less regulated things were? It has been so long now that it's difficult to remember that things were ever any different.

The only way to beat terrorism is to shrug your shoulders and say "Meh, even if you want to blow yourselves up, it's not going to directly hurt us that much". Sure, put meaningful security measures in place to stop people flying aeroplanes into buildings, but that's really not such a difficult task, it can be done without wasting money or freaking people out.

The world did totally change that day, but we were the ones who made it change, they just nudged us in the right direction.


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## McLovin (8 September 2011)

Sdajii said:


> The terrorists really did win with '911'. They wanted to freak the western world out,




They sure did. And they made airport travel a steaming mess of paranoia and useless officialdom dressed up as "keeping us safe".

It's time to move on world.


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## orr (8 September 2011)

Calliope said:


> Okay, so you believe the 9/11 attacks were justified. Do you have any other agenda besides blaming the Jews?




The CIA's own report into the attacks cited "BLOW BACK"(do you need an explanation of that term?). What Fisk is trying to bring attention to, is the feeling on the "Arab Street" that allowed something as malevolent as Al Qaeda to fester so successfully...'Blissful domestic ignorance of the effects of foreign policy'.
  The Jews? Which ones in particular? Anthony Loewenstien, the zionists, the Israeli's, Areil Sharon, He'd be good to chat with about with couple of refugee camp massacres, Sabra and Chatila 1700 Palestinian dead for which he was personally responsible. What is it that you don't know about 1948, 1967  UN resolution 242, or are we Blissfully ignorant? Sort of makes Fisk's point,  doesn't it.


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## Calliope (8 September 2011)

Sdajii said:


> The world did totally change that day, but we were the ones who made it change, they just nudged us in the right direction.




Yes, we are easily panicked. :topic Ten years ago a 12 year old boy was abducted and murdered not far from where I live. This event has changed the lives of parents and children in S/E Qld and the scare campaign has now got new legs after finding his remains. This campaign against "stranger danger" aims to prevent children from living normal adventurous lives.

The other day I smiled at a toddler in Coles. who not knowing about stranger danger smiled back at me. I suddenly realised that if her mother had been brainwashed I could become one of the "usual suspects." Her mother also gave me a charming smile. It made my day. All is not lost.


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## Julia (8 September 2011)

Calliope said:


> Yes, we are easily panicked. :topic Ten years ago a 12 year old boy was abducted and murdered not far from where I live. This event has changed the lives of parents and children in S/E Qld and the scare campaign has now got new legs after finding his remains. This campaign against "stranger danger" aims to prevent children from living normal adventurous lives.



This case has become some sort of peculiar obsession for the State government and the media.  Without wishing to detract from the grief of the Morecambe family, I can't help wondering how the parents of the thousands of other missing young people must be feeling, given the extraordinary resources devoted to this one boy.



> The other day I smiled at a toddler in Coles. who not knowing about stranger danger smiled back at me. I suddenly realised that if her mother had been brainwashed I could become one of the "usual suspects." Her mother also gave me a charming smile. It made my day. All is not lost.



And hopefully you'll keep on smiling at children, Calliope.  We must not be coerced into this whole stranger danger philosophy.  Before they all get too carried away, it might be good to remember that most assault against children comes from within their own family or at least from someone they know well.


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## Happy (8 September 2011)

orr said:


> ...
> 
> question of 9/11: why?




Are you sure your post belongs here?


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## Happy (8 September 2011)

Sdajii said:


> The terrorists really did win with '911'. They wanted to freak the western world out, they wanted to financially harm the western world, they wanted to kill people and they wanted us to lose freedom. They did all that, probably to a far greater extent than they hoped, but only because we're stupid.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...





Political correctness instead of fixing the problem treats everybody as potenitial terrorist.

(less than 100ml of anything in transpared bag, no scissors, nail files, body scans and on and on …)


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## orr (8 September 2011)

Happy said:


> Are you sure your post belongs here?



Do you really want me to answer that Question. Because if you do. You answer this Question first 'do you consider Robert Fisk a Journalist or a polemicist?'


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 September 2011)

I guess for me the picture of the falling man epitomises the bizarre dance that the west now engages with fascism in the form of Al Qaida and other Islamist terror organisations.

The falling man is you and I, our family and our descendants. He is everyman, going about his business, fallible, guilty of small vices and foibles. He is muslim, atheist, christian, agnostic, hindu and animist, just a bloke trying to feed himself and his family, and then one fine day he has a choice put upon him, jump from a great height to death, or die in flames. 

And this is put upon him by fascists. So sure in their ideology.

May they rot in Guantanamo, on the plains of Afghanistan, Pakistan and wherever they lurk in London, Paris, Jedda or who knows Sydney.

Remember the falling man. Or woman. He or she is you.







gg


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## bellenuit (8 September 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I guess for me the picture of the falling man epitomises the bizarre dance that the west now engages with fascism in the form of Al Qaida and other Islamist terror organisations.
> 
> The falling man is you and I, our family and our descendants. He is everyman, going about his business, fallible, guilty of small vices and foibles. He is muslim, atheist, christian, agnostic, hindu and animist, just a bloke trying to feed himself and his family, and then one fine day he has a choice put upon him, jump from a great height to death, or die in flames.
> 
> ...




Well said GG.  9/11 was an attack on every decent person everywhere. No justification for it full stop.


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## Glen48 (8 September 2011)

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/4914.html

It's been nearly 10 years since the attacks of 9/11 and the media is
> gearing up to blast you with a warped version of events dubbed the
> 'official story'. They'll tell you anything and everything to
> convince you that the official story is the 'only' story, but they
> won't talk about World Trade Center Building 7. 
> 
> Why is that?


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 September 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I guess for me the picture of the falling man epitomises the bizarre dance that the west now engages with fascism in the form of Al Qaida and other Islamist terror organisations.
> 
> The falling man is you and I, our family and our descendants. He is everyman, going about his business, fallible, guilty of small vices and foibles. He is muslim, atheist, christian, agnostic, hindu and animist, just a bloke trying to feed himself and his family, and then one fine day he has a choice put upon him, jump from a great height to death, or die in flames.
> 
> ...






Glen48 said:


> http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/4914.html
> 
> It's been nearly 10 years since the attacks of 9/11 and the media is
> > gearing up to blast you with a warped version of events dubbed the
> ...




I suppose there will always be crazy rationalisations of mass murder, it brings to mind the books of Toben and Hicks, which go against any rational argument.

gg


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## Calliope (8 September 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I suppose there will always be crazy rationalisations of mass murder, it brings to mind the books of Toben and Hicks, which go against any rational argument.
> 
> gg




The people who contrived this murderous attack were evil. Anyone who tries to justify the mass murder is also evil, or psychopathic.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 September 2011)

Calliope said:


> The people who contrived this murderous attack were evil. Anyone who tries to justify the mass murder is also evil, or psychopathic.




The perpetrators were, evil and bad, cloaked in the madness of fascism.

gg


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## Happy (9 September 2011)

orr said:


> Do you really want me to answer that Question. ...




Trying to trick me?

I asked first, so you answer first, (please)

Fair?


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## McLovin (9 September 2011)

It looks like the media is about to go into a 9/11 frenzy for the next few days. Great.


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## basilio (14 August 2020)

Thought this Executive Summary of the 9/11 Commission Report was worth posting.

*THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT*
*Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States *
*EXECUTIVE SUMMARY*​
We present the narrative of this report and the recommendations that flow from it to the President of the United States, the United States Congress, and the American people for their consideration. Ten Commissioners-five Republicans and five Democrats chosen by elected leaders from our nation's capital at a time of great partisan division-have come together to present this report without dissent. 

We have come together with a unity of purpose because our nation demands it. September 11, 2001, was a day of unprecedented shock and suffering in the history of the United States. The nation was unprepared. 

*https://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Exec.htm*


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