# Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis + FX



## bingk6

Hi all,

A few days ago, I came across a company called Traders International who provides courses on day-trading of the S&P500 “E-minis”. I logged on to one of their webseminar a couple of days ago as they were giving a live demo, using one of their techniques (double tops and double bottoms, together with proprietary stochastic and MACD technical indicator settings, whose values they did not divulge ) to pick very short term direction trades (most completed within 20 minutes). 

The gist of it was as follows:

1)	Every E-mini contract would cost $1000 each to establish. 
2)	Every point that the S&P500 moved was worth $50 per contract
3)	You had the choice to enter both long and short positions

During the course of the demo, the instructor traded 5 contracts (each time) at market price when their indicators gave either a buy or sell signal. Immediately after confirming that the order had gone through, the instructor would issue 2 sell orders (a profit target and stop loss order). If the original trade was a long position and lets say it was entered at 2000, the profit target would be set to 2002 (2 points above initial trade) and the stop loss set to 1998 (2 points below initial trade), and vice versa if the initial trade was a short trade.      

The amazing thing (to me, at least) was that out of 8 completed transactions, 7 were successful and had hit their profit target while the losing transaction was stopped out. With my very basic understanding of these things, the P/L on the profitable trades could be calculated as follows

	Cost to initiate trade	$5000 		(5 contracts x 1000/contract) 
	Profit 			$500/trade 	(5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract)

Similarly, the P/L for the loss making trade = -$500

As you can see, the 8 transactions would have yielded $3000 (6 net successful), from an initial investment of $5000, a return of 60% on one night.

Furthermore, the brokerage for trading from their recommended US broker could be as low as $2 to enter the trade and $2 to exit the trade, so over 8 completed trades would come to a paltry $32.

In essence, the methodology has been structured to give an equal potential gain and loss on each transaction and then to make money using their proprietary technical indicators to give the trader a better than even chance of getting it right. I guess if the probability of getting it right is >50% (even if it is only a little above 50%), then it pays to run as many transactions through the system as possible, especially considering the ridiculously low brokerage.

I have to say, based on what I have seen at least, that this is almost too good to be true. Perhaps I had misunderstood some of the things the instructor said (it was after all 4:00am in the morning   ). 

I am also baulking over their sizeable joining fee of approx U$5500.   

Has anybody else had anything to do with Traders International, and if so, any feedback ??.

Also does anybody else trade these “E-minis” and are the returns (assuming the same 7/1 win ratio) anything like what I have described above (or am I still in Disney land !! after 2 days  )

Bingk6


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## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



			
				bingk6 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> A few days ago, I came across a company called Traders International who provides courses on day-trading of the S&P500 “E-minis”. I logged on to one of their webseminar a couple of days ago as they were giving a live demo, using one of their techniques (double tops and double bottoms, together with proprietary stochastic and MACD technical indicator settings, whose values they did not divulge ) to pick very short term direction trades (most completed within 20 minutes).
> 
> The gist of it was as follows:
> 
> 1)	Every E-mini contract would cost $1000 each to establish.
> 2)	Every point that the S&P500 moved was worth $50 per contract
> 3)	You had the choice to enter both long and short positions
> 
> During the course of the demo, the instructor traded 5 contracts (each time) at market price when their indicators gave either a buy or sell signal. Immediately after confirming that the order had gone through, the instructor would issue 2 sell orders (a profit target and stop loss order). If the original trade was a long position and lets say it was entered at 2000, the profit target would be set to 2002 (2 points above initial trade) and the stop loss set to 1998 (2 points below initial trade), and vice versa if the initial trade was a short trade.
> 
> The amazing thing (to me, at least) was that out of 8 completed transactions, 7 were successful and had hit their profit target while the losing transaction was stopped out. With my very basic understanding of these things, the P/L on the profitable trades could be calculated as follows
> 
> Cost to initiate trade	$5000 		(5 contracts x 1000/contract)
> Profit 			$500/trade 	(5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract)
> 
> Similarly, the P/L for the loss making trade = -$500
> 
> As you can see, the 8 transactions would have yielded $3000 (6 net successful), from an initial investment of $5000, a return of 60% on one night.
> 
> Furthermore, the brokerage for trading from their recommended US broker could be as low as $2 to enter the trade and $2 to exit the trade, so over 8 completed trades would come to a paltry $32.
> 
> In essence, the methodology has been structured to give an equal potential gain and loss on each transaction and then to make money using their proprietary technical indicators to give the trader a better than even chance of getting it right. I guess if the probability of getting it right is >50% (even if it is only a little above 50%), then it pays to run as many transactions through the system as possible, especially considering the ridiculously low brokerage.
> 
> I have to say, based on what I have seen at least, that this is almost too good to be true. Perhaps I had misunderstood some of the things the instructor said (it was after all 4:00am in the morning   ).
> 
> I am also baulking over their sizeable joining fee of approx U$5500.
> 
> Has anybody else had anything to do with Traders International, and if so, any feedback ??.
> 
> Also does anybody else trade these “E-minis” and are the returns (assuming the same 7/1 win ratio) anything like what I have described above (or am I still in Disney land !! after 2 days  )
> 
> Bingk6





Essentially, that's basically how it works, but they've presented the best case scenario.

You will have losing days as well. I trade eminis and quite a few trade the SPI here as well (the aussie version)

$5k is an outright rort though.

For a free grounding in emini trading (and a similar methodology) try www.woodiescciclub.com 

But be careful... they kike to sugar coat things as well.

Good luck


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## bingk6

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> Essentially, that's basically how it works, but they've presented the best case scenario.
> 
> Good luck




WayneL,

Thanks for your contribution once again. Don't know what this forum will do without contributions from yourself, sails and Mag etc etc.

I understand what you are saying, I guess the interesting thing for me was that these 8 transactions were traded on live data, in a chat room style format between the instructor and the various people who had booked in to view the demo at that time. We were able to watch the double tops and bottoms as they formed, to initially prepare the order and to activate the order once the final confirmation came. The steps looked structured and methodical to me.  

I guess that the fact that they were prepared to demonstrate their techniques using live data is a plus.

Bingk6


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## Kauri

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

*1) Every E-mini contract would cost $1000 each to establish. 
2) **Every point that the S&P500 moved was worth $50 per contract
3) You had the choice to enter both long and short positions*
       Are you sure, most brokers will give you $5 a point on approx $1000 margin.   


_
_ 
*the 8 transactions would have yielded $3000 (6 net successful), from an initial investment of $5000, a return of 60% on one night.*
*         Cost to initiate trade $5000 (5 contracts x 1000/contract) 
Profit $500/trade (5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract)
*
*Cost to initiate trade $5000 (5 contracts x 1000/contract) 
Profit $500/trade (5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract*)
_Even at the claimed $50 a point_ by taking 2 points profit a trade 
2x50 = $100 per completed trade, which on 8 trades (6 net successful), would be $500, a return of 10% on one night.


*could be as low as $2 to enter the trade and $2 to exit the trade*
         could be???  what conditions need to be met to qualify for that rate??

           No mention of platform/data/exchange/access fees?   


           I think I'd be cautious ........


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## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



			
				Kauri said:
			
		

> *1) Every E-mini contract would cost $1000 each to establish.
> 2) **Every point that the S&P500 moved was worth $50 per contract
> 3) You had the choice to enter both long and short positions*
> Are you sure, most brokers will give you $5 a point on approx $1000 margin.
> 
> 
> _
> _
> *the 8 transactions would have yielded $3000 (6 net successful), from an initial investment of $5000, a return of 60% on one night.*
> *         Cost to initiate trade $5000 (5 contracts x 1000/contract)
> Profit $500/trade (5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract)
> *
> *Cost to initiate trade $5000 (5 contracts x 1000/contract)
> Profit $500/trade (5 contracts x 2 points x $50/point per contract*)
> _Even at the claimed $50 a point_ by taking 2 points profit a trade
> 2x50 = $100 per completed trade, which on 8 trades (6 net successful), would be $500, a return of 10% on one night.
> 
> 
> *could be as low as $2 to enter the trade and $2 to exit the trade*
> could be???  what conditions need to be met to qualify for that rate??
> 
> No mention of platform/data/exchange/access fees?
> 
> 
> I think I'd be cautious ........





Just to clarify some of these points.

There are several different emini contracts, the most popular of which, along with their point values are below

emini S&P 500:
$50 per point; minimum tick = .25 of a point i.e. $12.50 per tick

emini Dow:
$5 per point; minimum tick = 1 point i.e. $5 per tick

emini Nasdaq 100:
$20 per point; minimum tick = .5 of a point i.e. $10 per tick

emini russel 2000:
$100 per point; minimum tick = .1 of a point i.e. $10 per tick


Commission is generally around $2-$3 per side.

Margin for daytrades are generally 50% of initial margin, though some brokers are as low as $500

All in USD of course

Cheesr


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## Milk Man

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



> In essence, the methodology has been structured to give an equal potential gain and loss on each transaction and then to make money using their proprietary technical indicators to give the trader a better than even chance of getting it right. I guess if the probability of getting it right is >50% (even if it is only a little above 50%), then it pays to run as many transactions through the system as possible, especially considering the ridiculously low brokerage.



 I use this same principal to swing trade forex. The only difference being that the take profit side is set 10% larger than stop loss. My contention being that less than 1/10 trades will not make this new level that would have made the 50/50 level (if you get my drift). I also only take positive carry positions. I recently had Kaveman code up my system for me and numbers ranged from 45% wins to 70% wins over a 12 month period. Hence im pretty comfortable to trade the system.


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## bingk6

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



			
				Milk Man said:
			
		

> I use this same principal to swing trade forex. The only difference being that the take profit side is set 10% larger than stop loss. My contention being that less than 1/10 trades will not make this new level that would have made the 50/50 level (if you get my drift). I also only take positive carry positions. I recently had Kaveman code up my system for me and numbers ranged from 45% wins to 70% wins over a 12 month period. Hence im pretty comfortable to trade the system.




Hi Milk man,

Just to clarify, I take the < 1/10 figure to mean that once you reach the 50/50 profit target that there is a > 9/10 probability that it will reach higher to the additional 10% ???   

In any case, the 45% - 70% are damn good odds. I understand that these stats were generated from the forex market, but 2 questions:

1) do you believe similar percentages can be achieved trading other instruments, eg indexes or individual stocks, and
2) were these numbers derived from system back-testing or were they actual trades?

At 45% - 70%, one could almost comtemplate letting the automated system generate all the buy/sell orders (with appropriate profit target/stop loss settings off course) and just check the health of your monthly balace   Off course the brokerage will have to be real cheap to even contemplate this.


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## yogi-in-oz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Hi folks,

DOW/S&P500 ..... looking ahead, mostly positive
cycles coming into play, in September 2006:

04-05 September 2006 ..... long

08-19 September 2006 ..... long ..... big rally here??? ... 

     22 September 2006 ..... equinox ... negative cyce here.
                                        = selloff???

..... and then, mostly negative, until 16 October 2006.

More later.

happy trading

  yogi


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## Milk Man

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hey dude, 
Just thought id answer some of your questions.



			
				bingk6 said:
			
		

> Hi Milk man,
> 
> Just to clarify, I take the < 1/10 figure to mean that once you reach the 50/50 profit target that there is a > 9/10 probability that it will reach higher to the additional 10% ???
> 
> *Thats what I reckon considering most go way past my take profit anyway. I guess the market will have the final say on that one.  *
> 
> In any case, the 45% - 70% are damn good odds. I understand that these stats were generated from the forex market, but 2 questions:
> 
> 1) do you believe similar percentages can be achieved trading other instruments, eg indexes or individual stocks, and
> 
> *Indexes and commodities maybe but I'm a bit dubious on shorting stocks, WayneL could say better than me.*
> 
> 2) were these numbers derived from system back-testing or were they actual trades?
> 
> *Initial manual backtesting suggested 55-70% wins I think, I real time tested for a couple of months and this confirmed that. I had kaveman code the system to amibroker for me so I could test a larger timeframe and make sure I hadn't missed any trades. The results were about 45-70% wins.*
> 
> At 45% - 70%, one could almost comtemplate letting the automated system generate all the buy/sell orders (with appropriate profit target/stop loss settings off course) and just check the health of your monthly balace  Off course the brokerage will have to be real cheap to even contemplate this.




I noticed you mentioned brokerage. Forex has no brokerage (not with my broker anyway), they use buy/sell spreads to make their money. For example, they buy off another trader and then sell to me slightly higher (for a long).

Hope that helps. (do read below message though  )


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## DT_Futures

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

a good website if your interested in day trading futures in the US is www.tradethemarkets.com

they have a live trading room and custom indicators too, pretty good, expensive though, how ever if your smart enough you can pick everything up in the trading room...

check out there indicators too. there also expensive, but for more info on them PM me, dont pay for them off them, ill tell you how to get them cheaper...
and no i dont work for them...lol

but they do offer a good seervice.


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## NettAssets

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Traders International have a 1 day course coming up in Perth 8th Oct.

Its about $A500.00 and I guess its mostly a push to get you to spend the $US5000 for the full course and live trading room at $A125 odd a month (a few months worth in the $5000). There was an hours intro. last weekend at a seminar I went too , they are mainly trading the EMS&P500 so $50 a point as WayneL said. I have been trading the system they showed in the intro (as much as I wrote down anyway)  in the Sonray game and Its doing pretty well so far without their indicators. Ive been watching a couple of hours a night and trading about 3 times.
NA


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## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



			
				DT_Futures said:
			
		

> a good website if your interested in day trading futures in the US is www.tradethemarkets.com
> 
> they have a live trading room and custom indicators too, pretty good, expensive though, how ever if your smart enough you can pick everything up in the trading room...
> 
> check out there indicators too. there also expensive, but for more info on them PM me, dont pay for them off them, ill tell you how to get them cheaper...
> and no i dont work for them...lol
> 
> but they do offer a good seervice.




Agree.

We even have a thread on them

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4204

It's not too hard to work out the indicators.

Cheers


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## fyewchasukses

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi all, I am new to this forum site.

I am interested in getting into Eminis trading and wanted to get in contact with anyone who is trading the eminis markets regularly. I would like to find out your views and what you're trading and so forth.

I have been interested in signing up with Traders International, but am a bit reluctant to pay the $7000AUD fee.
Is anyone here signed up with them?

Any feed back would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Hayden


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## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



fyewchasukses said:


> Hi all, I am new to this forum site.
> 
> I am interested in getting into Eminis trading and wanted to get in contact with anyone who is trading the eminis markets regularly. I would like to find out your views and what you're trading and so forth.
> 
> I have been interested in signing up with Traders International, but am a bit reluctant to pay the $7000AUD fee.
> Is anyone here signed up with them?
> 
> Any feed back would be much appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Hayden




Hi Hayden,

Although you are new to this forum, are you new to trading or quite experienced?  If you have a good amount of experience then I suppose you would not even be entertaining the notion of spending $A7,000 for this scheme, so I will assume you are fairly new to it all.  That’s ok, we all start somewhere!  

Have a read of this thread (posts above) before you spend $A7000 with anyone.  Also, there is a HUGE amount of information about trading the eminis available on the net, all at NO cost.   

Initially spend some time on the website of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) and read everything you can there first about the exchange and the emini contracts.  It is not necessarily easy reading, but if you do not understand something that is fine, sit with it, re-read it, ask them questions (the exchange is more than happy to answer email queries).  Ask questions here too.

If you want to find out about trading methods there is plenty of that available all over the net too.  Find some forums with a focus on trading these emini instruments, there are plenty of people who will exchange information and advice.  Now, I am biased (because this is what I do), but I think you could do far worse than adopting an approach based on the works of Richard Wyckoff, start with some Volume Spread Analysis (VSA) and learn from there.  I will dob in “tech/a” (start with his most recent posts, he concentrates on ASX shares, but the principles are the same) and “motorway” as the best information on this type of analysis.  As I said, this is the style of analysis/trading I use, so I am biased and others will have other ideas but don’t listen to them (joking!).  Have a look at this thread, the posters here are active in these markets and it would be more than worthwhile reading their contributions.  Start with the most recent posts and work back.

You will need to find a method that works well for the parameters within which you wish to trade – capital available, risk tolerance, time available, skill set, and so on.  It is very tempting to think that you can buy all that you need for the $7,000 fee.  You can’t.  All the promoters of these various schemes will tell you can (prices may vary…).  Some of the promoters will pose as disinterested third parties on forums such as this one, beware.

The emini equity indices are FANTASTIC markets to trade.  Low brokerage, huge liquidity, huge scope to expand the size of your trading as you get better.  Here comes the … BUT … it is not an easy road, and you WILL have to do A LOT of work.  You WILL have to spend a lot – try to make it the spending of time rather than money, because the time you spend in effective work and learning of this stuff will give you a much bigger return at much lower risk and with a much great probability of success.  You WILL NOT be successful with it with a $7,000 box.

What else…  Someone immeasurably smarter than me has said that there is more to this game (trading the eminis) than meets the eye, and that it requires much more than you think.  Never a truer word has been spoken.  You will not find the answers in a week cruising the net for information.  I would suggest you spend at least 6 months intensive learning; launch yourself up the learning curve during this stage.  The learning process never stops, but it levels off somewhat.  

By all means start trading well before the end of the 6 months; actually being involved and doing will teach you a lot.  You may (most likely will) lose some money during this phase, but keep it very limited.  During this phase make sure you use stop losses (if you cannot use stop losses DO NOT get involved in any futures market) and exit all positions by the close of the “Regular Market Hours” at 4.15pm NY time (check the CME website for earlier closing times on approaches to holidays etc.).  More on stop losses – they are a trader’s best friend.  They are tough love, but they are love.

Hope this helps.


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## professor_frink

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

excellent post Timmy



fyewchasukses said:


> Hi all, I am new to this forum site.
> 
> I am interested in getting into Eminis trading and wanted to get in contact with anyone who is trading the eminis markets regularly. I would like to find out your views and what you're trading and so forth.
> 
> I have been interested in signing up with Traders International, but am a bit reluctant to pay the $7000AUD fee.
> Is anyone here signed up with them?
> 
> Any feed back would be much appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Hayden




Hi Hayden,

You'll have to ask yourself whether you'll get even close to $7K of value out of a course. Personally, I don't think any course is going to give you that. IMO, the hardest part of daytrading is the psychological aspect of it. How will you handle the waiting that can be involved before you take a position? How will you react when a position moves against you whilst you are in a trade? Developing the discipline to sit and wait for an entry signal, and then to execute the trade without hesitation, and to be able to keep your stop in the appropriate place for the entire length of the trade is 100 times more difficult than you think it will be before you start trading. This is something that you need to learn yourself- I'd be very surprised if you can be taught this by anyone else. Everyone has different levels of patience/can handle different levels of drawdown within a trade,etc, so you really need to get in there and start doing it to find out what you are comfortable with. How will you feel if you spend $7K, only to find out that the methods they are selling don't sit very well with you, and you find you have to go back and design something else that you are comfortable using?


To start with I would suggest the following-

get some decent software and some data for the markets you plan on looking at. You need to become familiar with the way the markets you are following move during the day, so that you can find a method that you are confident will make a profit. 

From there once you've come up with a strategy that you think you can implement successfully, move on to trading on a sim. You need to prove to yourself that you can actually execute in real time what you've been looking at on static charts. Once you have proven that you can make consistent profits on a sim, then move on to trading live with 1 contract and prove that you can turn a profit when there is real money on the line. If you find that you are having problems executing a strategy you come up with live, then you need to stop trading with real money/ on the sim straight away and go back to the beginning and start again. The goal should be to spend as much time as you can preparing before you risk a cent, so that you can give yourself the best possible chance to keep your capital whilst you are learning.

How much experience you have at trading will probably determine how long it'll take before you can make a profit consistently. I had been trading EOD for a few years before I moved into daytrading, and it took me about 5 months before I really started getting it and was turning a regular profit. If you haven't done any trading before, expect it to take quite a bit longer- no matter what people trying to sell you a $7K course tell you- you won't be the next Marty Schwartz by the end of next week- it takes quite a bit of time to get consistent.

Hope this helps a bit.


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## ithatheekret

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread with this .

Below is an ugly chart , I think we'd all agree to that by now so it was a pointless comment but one that I felt had to be made .

The 1390 close is well below the surface , , the next moves are quite critical for the S&P . for starters they now would have to exceed 1431 to get the snorkel working and close above it with further advances immediately in the prevailing sessions .

Below that are a few points of critical interest starting at 1380 , next 1370/68ish and below that is a nasty 1340/30 area , if this last area fails , the next closest area I have is around 1245 then 1200 .

Only the cos. books no where it will go now .


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## hspbx99

*Traders International?*

re: www.tradersinternational.com

Has anyone heard of or joined Traders International.  They concentrate on the E-Minis.  I've been to a couple of their seminars but would like to hear if any success/horror stories/ or just comments.

Thanks.


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## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International?*

I have mixed comments about these guys. I spoke to a guy who has started their course and he was pretty happy with it. He did say he was a little disappointed with how much educational material there was, but other than that he had positive things to say about the trading room he was in (the european one). He was only trading on a simulator at that stage, I'm not sure how he's doing with cash now.

A few things on the downside:
1. The client testimonial video on their website includes one of their own salespeople! I have worked in marketing in the past, and that sort of thing is an absolute no-no - a real shocker! That alone raised a red flag about these guys for me.
2. There's a LOT of negative comments about them on the net (so check out other websites), although many of those comments seem to be about what the company was like in the past.
3. One of their sales lines is something like "make $500-$1000 a day trading", they don't mention that that sort of income should only be expected after a few years - one of the common bits of mis-information that goes around about trading is the expected income in the first few years.

If you want to know the reality of trading, you may want to have a look at this video: http://puretick.com/video/thetruth/ 

I looked at Traders International, and after seeing this video decided to join PureTick instead, and am extremely happy with them. If you'd like to know more about them (I don't want to turn this post into some sort of sales spin) please feel free to email me directly. Cheers.


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## theasxgorilla

*Re: Traders International?*

There is an existing thread dedicated to discussion of this.  I'm merging these comments in.

ASX.G


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## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi everyone,iam new to this forum and also to trading.Ive been looking at the traders international website and their results seem to be impressive in the live trade rooms.Is it really all its made out to be,or just clever marketing?
My aim with eminis trading is to get a consistant return of 10% on my money anything above would be a bonus,is this unrealistic for a novice?It appears that traders International are averaging a much higher return than that?Any information from experienced eminis traders would be greatly appreciated,thanks.


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> Hi everyone,iam new to this forum and also to trading.Is it really all its made out to be,or just clever marketing?




I will answer your question with another,

Whats the probability that a novice will make money in any zero sum game from professionals?

Stats are about 1 in 1000.

see here


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Here is another Question.

If you had a business and went to purchase a new piece of equipment and didn't know if it would help make you biz more profitable what would that say?

You have know idea what you are doing? 

Save your money and do some research on day trading after you have become a little more educated you will be able to asses if the $7000 is worth it. The fact that you don't know if it is or not would suggest any purchase is VERY risky.


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## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

thanks for the input trembling hand,however do you think that by undergoing the Traders International trading course in eminis,i will have sufficient skills to at least be able to do simulated trading with the aim of eventually going live after a few months,and the attraction to traders international for me is access to their live trading room and their pro traders who give buy or sell signals,is it unreasonable to expect that if i follow these traders buy/sell signals i will be profitable,or am i being optomistic?


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> do you think that by undergoing the ****** ******* trading course in eminis




Why in the hell would anyone want to trade US Fut Mr spamster?

Currently the US market opens @ 1:30 AM!!

As a former Bakery owner I can tell you the idea that you are trading the NIGHT SHIFT is ridiculous. There are stacks of Futures markets to trade during Asian day hours.

Could you please give me one other profession where you can do a part time course and beat seasoned professions. One where for you to make money you must take it from someone else.


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## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

thats why iam asking traders with experience about TI,and i know that when something sounds too good to be true it usually is,but they're website seems to be convincing.Have you seen their live trading results?Couldnt i follow they're pro traders indicators and make a profit?I'am genuine,and not a spamster,just trying to work out if this course is worth the pricetag,the hours dont bother me,ive recently sold a business and i would really like to get into day trading,any help or tips would be appreciated,thanks


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> thats why iam asking traders with experience about TI,and i know that when something sounds too good to be true it usually is,but they're website seems to be convincing.Have you seen their live trading results?Couldnt i follow they're pro traders indicators and make a profit?I'am genuine,and not a spamster,just trying to work out if this course is worth the pricetag,the hours dont bother me,ive recently sold a business and i would really like to get into day trading,any help or tips would be appreciated,thanks




OK. I don't see any long term results on their web site. I also painfully went through the first 12 testimonials from them and not 1 said they are live and making money.

If  you are deadly serious about day trading please read this blog back to front. This guy coaches newbies through to the Biggest of the big. He knows exactly what it takes to make money.  (He even wrote about one of my blog articles recently  )

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/

Three things from him that are a prerequisite of profitable day trading.

1. Find your niche. That's market as well as approach. Highly unlikely that the 'system' will gel with your head. as well as the instrument.

2. Account size. It will take a lot more to survive than you think. probably $50,000 grade would be minimum. I would say much more.

3. And to reach expertise in any field you require 10 years of specific deliberative practice. 

Spend a couple of $100 on some books, open a small account for practice then see if they are of interest to you.
Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

thanks alot trembling hand,i appreciate your help


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi szandor,

I suggest you have a read of my first post (#18). 

Going into day trading is just like choosing to go to law school or med school. Don't expect to get a murder trial or brain surgery after week 1, or even after year 1. In other words, if you really want to make a living out of it, it is a serious commitment of time and resources (financial and personal).

As I mentioned in my first post, if you want to know the reality of trading, you may want to have a look at this video: http://puretick.com/video/thetruth/ 

From what I see of their advertising and cost I think you could do a lot better than TI, if you are really serious about day trading. Feel free to email me if you'd like to know more about the Puretick guys - I've been with them for a month and am very happy with how they teach, their realistic view of what it takes to become a successful day trader, and their trading calls. 

I hope that helps you make your decision.

PS - Ignore the comment someone made about having to get up at 1:30am - if you are serious about it, you will do it. I live in NZ and I jump out of bed at 3am every day, and love every moment of it.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Rockhoundnz said:


> PS - Ignore the comment someone made about having to get up at 1:30am - if you are serious about it, you will do it. I live in NZ and I jump out of bed at 3am every day, and love every moment of it.




It has to be asked why don't you trade Asian hours??. I always luv these responses.


----------



## julius

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

well I have heard the $7k doesn't buy you alot...as far as I know they scalp a moving average system

the live trade room is supposed to be good though, profitable entries if you take them


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

I have nothing new to add but will only repeat some of the better responses ... they seem to have been missed ???



Trembling Hand said:


> Could you please give me one other profession where you can do a part time course and beat seasoned professions. One where for you to make money you must take it from someone else.




Anyone interested in TI come up with one yet?  



Trembling Hand said:


> OK. I don't see any long term results on their web site. I also painfully went through the first 12 testimonials from them and not 1 said they are live and making money.




Anyone interested in TI find some long-term results?  Anyone *verified *there are people making money from this ... <cough>... System ?



Trembling Hand said:


> If  you are deadly serious about day trading please read this blog back to front. This guy coaches newbies through to the Biggest of the big. He knows exactly what it takes to make money.  (He even wrote about one of my blog articles recently  )
> 
> http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/




Any feedback on this blog?


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

I think that people's concerns regarding highly publicised trading systems are valid. A forum of this type is a reasonable place to ask questions. I am curious to know why only people ignorant of the trading system post their comments?  Is it simply a matter of knocking what you don't understand? 

Why is it that there are no comments from people that have actually paid for the course? 

I see this pattern of responses to these types of questions on most forums.


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Reading some old threads I have noticed that a few customers have posted their comments on several high profile trading education retailers in ASF. These few informed posts get buried with time so that when someone asks about one of these companies, a new thread is started. 

Perhaps the moderators should move new queries to the end of these older threads so that the few informed posts are more easily accessed.


----------



## IFocus

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



peter2 said:


> I think that people's concerns regarding highly publicised trading systems are valid. A forum of this type is a reasonable place to ask questions. I am curious to know why only people ignorant of the trading system post their comments?  Is it simply a matter of knocking what you don't understand?




I am afraid the sales formula sounds all to familiar the final nail is the price.   



> Why is it that there are no comments from people that have actually paid for the course?




Good question why isnt there?



> I see this pattern of responses to these types of questions on most forums.




With out some clear indication of performance record assumed or real then yes you will see the same responses


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> It has to be asked why don't you trade Asian hours??. I always luv these responses.




Simple: Volume, and the fact my trading mentor trades the Dow eminis, so I do as well. If you can find a good teacher for the Asian markets and the market has sufficient volume then go for it.


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

In all fairness, I have heard of some satisfied TI clients. The thing I didn't like was their marketing - claiming people can earn $500 to $1000 a day, but not pointing out that realistically you won't do that in the first few years of trading, and then having one of their own staff in their online testimonial video - to me that just makes them look bad, whether they are or not.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Rockhoundnz said:


> Simple: Volume, and the fact my trading mentor trades the Dow eminis, so I do as well. If you can find a good teacher for the Asian markets and the market has sufficient volume then go for it.




That's what I thought you would say and I am sorry but when does a Newbie need 600 contracts on the Bid and Ask to learn to trade(ES). It is just a ridiculous reason told to newbies as a selling point that is false. Their is more than enough volume in all the Asian index Futures to trade. Even the Aussie SPI has a constant 5 - 20 on the bid ask with no gaps. 

What is it about that volume that you need to get up @ 3am 

Really how many contracts(round trips) do you do in a day? 1 to 5 or 500 to 5000?


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> That's what I thought you would say and I am sorry but when does a Newbie need 600 contracts on the Bid and Ask to learn to trade(ES). It is just a ridiculous reason told to newbies as a selling point that is false. Their is more than enough volume in all the Asian index Futures to trade. Even the Aussie SPI has a constant 5 - 20 on the bid ask with no gaps.
> 
> What is it about that volume that you need to get up @ 3am
> 
> Really how many contracts(round trips) do you do in a day? 1 to 5 or 500 to 5000?




600 contracts is huge on bid and ask even for the Dow eminis, 50 either side would be more normal. The volume of that market provides less choppiness, which is good if you're scalping. For me the really *important factor *is where my chosen mentor is located and what he trades - it just happens that is the states. I don't really see what the issue is about getting up at 3am. If people really want to learn how to trade then work hours will mean little - it's the sort of thing that weeds out the losers who think trading should be like sitting back and watching TV as opposed to going to law school. If you can find a great mentor that will teach you to trade the Asian markets then go for it - and then the work hours are a little bonus. I'd love to trade the Australian markets in the future... if someone would bother to provide a Tradestation feed for the ASX... it astonishes me that this isn't available - probably the single most popular charting software around and you can't use it for the ASX...


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Getting back to the point of this thread - finding the right teacher takes precedence over anything else. If TI can provide great teaching then nothing else matters. I spent a LONG time checking out various trading rooms etc before I settled on Puretick, and I'm pleased I did. So, the real message is do your homework on your mentor, just as you would if you were choosing a good law school. Learn from the best.


----------



## Nick Radge

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



> if someone would bother to provide a Tradestation feed for the ASX




Esignal plugs straight into TradeStation. Works fine.


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> I will answer your question with another,
> 
> Whats the probability that a novice will make money in any zero sum game from professionals?
> 
> Stats are about 1 in 1000.
> 
> see here




This answer, or implied answer, is a little misleading. Trading isn't a zero sum game, it's actually a negative sum game if you take commissions into account. Also, there's actually no need to take money from professionals - there are plenty of newbie traders out there who don't take the advice of a good teacher and don't use stops to provide money for the market. So the real question should be "are you truly willing to make the effort required to be a successful trader?" All those seminar rooms full of people at some learn-to-trade-after-two-weeks presentation who think "yeah, I'm willing to make the effort", when really they're only there because they actually believe that they can make $1000 a day after reading a couple of books, taking a month long course, and spending a couple of weeks on a simulator. The reality is that trading is a career just like medicine is a career - would you want your doctor performing surgery on you after the same length of time? I think not.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi all,

I'm new to Aussie Stock Forum and was interested to see there was a topic in relation to Traders International. 

I have had a read through the post on this topic and I can understand why there are people who are wary of Traders International.  I was at first but still decided to take the plunge.  Nothing ventured nothing gained.  The initial investment is high but the level of support you receive and the fact that there is a trading room with someone calling the trade suits me fine.

The other aspect I like is the fact that they send out text messages when a signal develops during the non cash hours.  This has often allowed me to take some trades that have gone to profit and not have to worry about getting up at 1.30am as I had hit my profit target for the day.

The system is not for eveyone however to dismiss the system without seeing it for yourself is a bit harsh. This is just my opinion and no I am not a spammer I am an actual member just trying to give a balanced view.

Hope it proves to provide some help to those who are after some information from someone who is actually using the system.


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> The system is not for eveyone however to dismiss the system without seeing it for yourself is a bit harsh.




I've seen it and dismiss it ... glad I am not being harsh!
For those who do want to dismiss it without seeing it, you will save a lot of time!:


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Timmy,

It's fair enough to dismiss it after having seen it but to encourage others to do so is actually an in justice to those that are considering the system.  I have had great results from it and it will pay for itself in no time.

My results to date (both in simulation and live) have been outstanding.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> My results to date (both in simulation and live) have been outstanding.




Best way to shut up the skeptical is to post your trades real time in the an appropriate thread. Like this one. Or send some statements to some senior members.

One problem with TI is their kick backs for recruiting other members. Always makes people skeptical that the praise is genuine as many have an interest in it looking like "THE" system.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Ive been doing some research into these trading systems over the last few months (ie TI,puretick etc),and despite myself being a novice in trading,iam beginning to think that these systems do work,maybe not as profitably as they claim,but i think they definitely imo give the trader a better than 50-50 chance of making a successful trade.If you can consistantly get a better than a 50% successfull trade result(and Ti for example claim approx 70% from memory),then just going by probability and numbers if you consistantly follow the 'system' you will be profitable.
 If i were to implement a system that could consistantly on average give me a 55% success rate for example with a 10% stop loss,i would be profitable wouldnt i?Obviously on a $1000 contract that isnt much,but using 10 contracts and it starts to look attractive.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Timmy,
> 
> It's fair enough to dismiss it after having seen it but to encourage others to do so is actually an in justice to those that are considering the system.  I have had great results from it and it will pay for itself in no time.
> 
> My results to date (both in simulation and live) have been outstanding.




AWOOGA!

VI alert!


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Sorry wayneL but what does "VI alert!" mean?

As stated previously I am new to the forum so not too sure of all of the terminology used here.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> Ive been doing some research into these trading systems over the last few months (ie TI,puretick etc),and despite myself being a novice in trading,iam beginning to think that these systems do work,maybe not as profitably as they claim,but i think they definitely imo give the trader a better than 50-50 chance of making a successful trade.If you can consistantly get a better than a 50% successfull trade result(and Ti for example claim approx 70% from memory),then just going by probability and numbers if you consistantly follow the 'system' you will be profitable.
> If i were to implement a system that could consistantly on average give me a 55% success rate for example with a 10% stop loss,i would be profitable wouldnt i?Obviously on a $1000 contract that isnt much,but using 10 contracts and it starts to look attractive.




szandor,

Your theory is right.  I too am a novice and just recently went live after being in simulation.  So far I am finding that the system works.  Time will tell how successful it is in the long term.


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

TI member: If you only recently went "live" then you are indeed a novice.

Your statement describing your results to date as " outstanding" is misleading if you have only recently started trading with your own money. You are only starting to experience the emotional tugs of fear and greed. At this early stage ignorance is bliss.

Would you mind telling us how long it took you to get the required number of consecutive winning trades in simulation mode? I am aware of this requirement and understand its benefits as an accomplishment and as a confidence booster prior to going live.

Other comments about the education and support that you experienced would be of interest.


----------



## Nick Radge

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



> imo give the trader a better than 50-50 chance of making a successful trade.If you can consistantly get a better than a 50% successfull trade result(and Ti for example claim approx 70% from memory),t




A 70% trader can be a losing trader.

A 30% trader can be a winner.


----------



## IFocus

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Nick Radge said:


> A 70% trader can be a losing trader.
> 
> A 30% trader can be a winner.




My win loss been as low as 40% this year and account still going up currently at 53% and very happy to stay at this level.

I have this secret fool proof method that I could let you all in on for.......sorry I hang out with Galahs........


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

How can a 70% successful trader with a +/- 10% 'gamble' be a losing tarder?


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> How can a 70% successful trader with a +/- 10% 'gamble' be a losing tarder?




What does "+/- 10% 'gamble' " mean?


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

From what I understand,TI only usually go long/short 2 points.


----------



## Nick Radge

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



> How can a 70% successful trader with a +/- 10% 'gamble' be a losing tarder




Lets say you make 10 trades, have 7 wins and 3 losses. You are a 70% trader.

Lets say those seven wins make you $1000 each for $7000.
Lets say the three losses lose you $3000 each for a loss of $9000.

You are a 70% trader. You are also a loser.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

yes but if you work on a stop loss of 10%,the maximum you can win or loose is 10% or 2 points per trade per contract.So if you're a 70% trader using the Ti system for example and you have a $1000 contract,you'll win $700,loose $300 with a profit of $400.Thats the attraction of the system,you only win or loose 2 points per trade if you stick to the system.So if they're continually averaging approx 60-70% success per trading day,my question is how can you loose if you follow their system and take all the trades??


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Yes, the figures quoted by TI do have a positive edge. This strategy is designed to get many small wins and needs the high W% to be profitable. You need to ask yourself if this style of trading suits you. Ignore the 5%-10% claims. Can you sit at the monitor for hours patiently waiting for the trading setups? Do you have the discipline to wait for the perfect setup, near enough is not good enough. If you had three consecutive losing nights will you be able to take the next signal?  Remember these results are acheived by educated and experienced traders. They make very few mistakes. If you forget to place your SL and the market moves quickly against you, your losses will be 50 - 100%. Are you willing to put the effort in to learn it, practise it and then stick with it for as long as it takes?

How can you lose? You will lose by not learning, not practising, making mistakes, getting distracted, etc......
If this trading style dosn't suit you, you will find a way to lose.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



peter2 said:


> TI member: If you only recently went "live" then you are indeed a novice.
> 
> Your statement describing your results to date as " outstanding" is misleading if you have only recently started trading with your own money. You are only starting to experience the emotional tugs of fear and greed. At this early stage ignorance is bliss.
> 
> Would you mind telling us how long it took you to get the required number of consecutive winning trades in simulation mode? I am aware of this requirement and understand its benefits as an accomplishment and as a confidence booster prior to going live.
> 
> Other comments about the education and support that you experienced would be of interest.




Peter2,

Firstly, I acknowledged that I am a novice.

Secondly, I do not believe that my statement of "outstanding" was misleading as I made it perferctly clear that I had great results both in Sim as well as on my live account.  I was in Sim from the 8th of Jan till the 27th of Feb.  During that time I traded for 33 days.  Out of the 33 days I only had 6 losing days.  My total ROI for that period was over 400% after brokerage.  If that is not an outstanding result I don't know what is.  Since I have gone live I have only traded for 7 days.  In that 7 day period I have managed to get a return of 55.20% after brokerage.  To *me* that is an outstanding result as well.  

Thirdly, I treated my simulation as if it was a real.  I did this deliberately in order to prepare myself for when I went live.  I have had losing days since going live however my preperation during Sim has helped me understand that, that is part of trading.  Not every single one of your trades can be winning however I have faith that if I follow the methogolgy in the long run I will be ahead.  So I do not believe I am being ignorant in relation to what I can expect to achieve.  I would however agree with you that ignorance is bliss that is why unlike you I do not dismiss any trading system unless I have seen the system myself and tried it to determine if it works or not and wether it suits my style of trading.  

In relation to your request for information on education and support, the education is not that complex.  Learning the signals is quite simple and you could probably obtain the information or similar information quite easily.  For me it is the support that really attracts me to the system. They run daily support sessions not only in relation to the technical aspects of trading but more importantly on the psychology of trading.  Also the fact of being in a trading room and building up relationships with other trades who will support you on days you may be struggling by reassuring you that all will be ok in the long run is a huge benefit to *me*.

I can assure you that all of my posts are honest as I personally have nothing to gain from this.  I purely want to try to provide a balanced point of view for those that are seriously considering the system and want to make an informed decision before they take the plunge.  My question to those that are quick to dismiss the system is how successful are you in your trading and how long did it take you to reach that level of success?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Peter2,
> 
> Firstly, I acknowledged that I am a novice.
> 
> Secondly, I do not believe that my statement of "outstanding" was misleading as I made it perferctly clear that I had great results both in Sim as well as on my live account.  I was in Sim from the 8th of Jan till the 27th of Feb.  During that time I traded for 33 days.  Out of the 33 days I only had 6 losing days.  My total ROI for that period was over 400% after brokerage.  If that is not an outstanding result I don't know what is.  Since I have gone live I have only traded for 7 days.  In that 7 day period I have managed to get a return of 55.20% after brokerage.  To *me* that is an outstanding result as well.



These numbers could have been plucked out of your @rse for all we know. 

Can you verify them? If not, just do some live trades on here so we can follow along.  You do not have to say why you enter or exit, you don't have to give anything away, just when and the price traded at.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

wayneL,

See the attachment.  It is a snapshot of the performance of my live account from ninja trader from the 29/02/08 (my first live date) till today.  At this stage I only trade 1 contract and have a total profit of $587.50 before brokerage.  I would be interested to see who else is willing to prove their system works as I just have.

Either put up or shut up.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> wayneL,
> 
> See the attachment.  It is a snapshot of the performance of my live account from ninja trader from the 29/02/08 (my first live date) till today.  At this stage I only trade 1 contract and have a total profit of $587.50 before brokerage.  I would be interested to see who else is willing to prove their system works as I just have.
> 
> Either put up or shut up.



Cheers,

Be sure to keep us updated... say after 50, 100, 1000 trades.

FWIW I keep a running expectancy of my most recent trades. It is amazing how it ebbs and flows.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> See the attachment.




I don't see any attachment TI?

An obvious criticism is that your real trading has been going only for 2 weeks, so  it will be interesting to see how its going, like Wayne said, after a longer period.  Good on you for putting your trades up, it is a very rare thing for people promoting these type of systems and goes a good deal of the way to answering the skeptics (like me).


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?




Wayne,

On the 1 contract I trade ($1000.00) I have made $550 profit.  Hence 55% return in 7 trading days.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?




Some quick back of envelope calcs:

Cost to join TI $7,000

Generally accepted cash reserve needed to trade 1 contract ~$15,000

Hardware, software, office costs etc. minimum $3,000

Total setup costs ~$25,000

550/25000 = *2.2%*


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Timmy said:


> I don't see any attachment TI?
> 
> An obvious criticism is that your real trading has been going only for 2 weeks, so  it will be interesting to see how its going, like Wayne said, after a longer period.  Good on you for putting your trades up, it is a very rare thing for people promoting these type of systems and goes a good deal of the way to answering the skeptics (like me).




Timmy,

I had it on a previous post but then realised I had my account details so took it off and blanked them out.

I know it is early days but so far so good.  Better than what I was expecting.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Wayne,
> 
> On the 1 contract I trade ($1000.00) I have made $550 profit.  Hence 55% return in 7 trading days.




OK don't take this the wrong way, but there is a saying amongst older hands that goes: Minimum margin = minimum intelligence.

i.e. The margin you're using is irrelevant to your % return. On that basis most winning futures trader could post truly startling percentages. The reality is, as my previous post, the actual capital employed in setup costs, margin and cash reserves is much higher and is the figure that should be taken into account when calculating profit.

To calculate profit on margin employed is BS.

Not wishing to be harsh, but that's just the truth.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> Some quick back of envelope calcs:
> 
> Cost to join TI $7,000
> 
> Generally accepted cash reserve needed to trade 1 contract ~$15,000
> 
> Hardware, software, office costs etc. minimum $3,000
> 
> Total setup costs ~$25,000
> 
> 550/25000 = *2.2%*




wayneL,

Why are you so negative?  Even given your calculations (which I might add are incorrect because you can trade an emini contract with as little as $1000.  Hardware, software, office costs are nill as I already had them in place prior to even considering trading.  So at my calculations total setup costs are $8,000) a 2.2% return on TOTAL investment in 7 trdaing days is still great in my opinion.  

By the way just picked up another trade on S&P at 8.40.20am and got 2 points (10%) entry was at 1320.50.

That now takes my return on total investment to 2.6%


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> wayneL,
> 
> Why are you so negative?  Even given your calculations (which I might add are incorrect because you can trade an emini contract with as little as $1000.  Hardware, software, office costs are nill as I already had them in place prior to even considering trading.  So at my calculations total setup costs are $8,000) a 2.2% return on TOTAL investment in 7 trdaing days is still great in my opinion.
> 
> By the way just picked up another trade on S&P at 8.40.20am and got 2 points (10%) entry was at 1320.50.
> 
> That now takes my return on total investment to 2.6%




Not negative mate, just interested in fair reportage of the facts. 

PS Read my post again re margin. 

Keep us updated.


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Many thanks, TI member. I was trying to highlight that it does take some time and effort to learn and practice before trading this method live. Many people expect to start making profits quite quickly after their purchase. 

Like WayneL I don't like the way TI state their results (% of margin used) especially when the broker is being very flexible with their margin requirements. The TI marketing takes advantage of this flexibility. ROI is return on the total investment capital that you have available for trading. As this is a business there are start up and ongoing costs that must be offset before a profit is realised.

Enjoy the journey that you have started. I would be interested to know how you are progressing in a few months time.


----------



## julius

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Well, I watched someone who live trades the TI trading setups last night and all I can say is that it is legit.

Pretty basic signals, MACD & a moving average oscillator, bullish/bearish divergence type trades...from what I saw last night the rules are very strictly adhered to.

They have a number of commentators who call out the set ups live and talk them through, manage your exits, etc

All of the previous trading calls are available in recap videos, nothing dodgy there.

My only criticism was the way profits were refered to in % terms, but that's just a semantic thing really.

The 7k is steep to be sure, but it does seem like it buys you a profitable system, which you could argue is worth alot more than that...


----------



## conpute

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi I have been with Traders International for about a year. Just wanted to put a note in regarding cost.
The initial 7k buys you the education course ongoing support and 5 weeks in the live room.
In 5 weeks you will need to continue to attend the live room as it is not sufficient time to learn the methods and be competent to go it alone. The ongoing expense is the about $295 US per month.
You will also need your own charts if your serious (live room can be used but often there can be lag etc or room has problems so is not a good ongoing choice for serious traders) this will cost $145 to $180 US per month.
If you set up your live account as per instructions you will also have a $50 fee per month for your trading dome and a $30 fee every three months, for your account.
So if you want to do the course, then attend the room for a year, have  a live account you will need for the first year about $7 K AU then about $4500 US to get through the first year. 
You can carry on without the room, after a period of time, that is what I and many others I have met from my membership do, but you do miss out on a lot by doing this, I feel like I am out in the dark a lot now....but the ongoing expense is to steep for a lot of members to accommodate so we have little choice. It can be difficult to when new things are introduced as you do not find out to after room subscribers and unless you subscribe you do not get to see anything in action.
The results shown at the site are correct and the methodology is fantastic, but the results do not show the fact that you do not get on to all the profitable trades (they take off to fast or you are not bought in to the trade) but you do get into all the stopped out trades (they always come back and get you).
I have been at this for almost a year, and I am now making a small profit most weeks, but I am only using 1 contract. (it would be a great profit if I used 10) but it takes some time to build up your account to increase contracts and it takes quite some time to work out a trading plan that suits you and work on your mindset.
I will be continuing on I hope for many years to come, and hope that some time soon I will see some return for my hard effort and for the money I have spent so far. 
My only disappointment is that I really feel that the 7 k should give you more room time, the methodology can be learnt in a day but it take practise to get yourself organised, and 5 weeks just is not enough practise. You will then need to be continually paying a further $500 us every month to carry on your live room and chart access. 
Most of the traders that I know (and I certainly don't know that many) are at about the same stage as me...We all say that learning to trade is one of the hardest things we have ever done and that we wish we could afford the room.


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Thanks for the comments Julius and conpute.  Conpute - those ongoing fees are very steep, especially after a $7,000 entry fee ... are the indicator parameters disclosed to you so you could set up the charts on some alternative charting package (like Amibroker or Metastock), this could be a cheaper option if the parameters are disclosed to you?

Also Conpute, re the execution problems such as not getting on to all the trades (and yes, the losing trades always get filled, and that's not just a market cliche it is a logical outcome of any sytematic approach), what sort of broker are you using, are you able to input bracket orders, stop-in orders etc. ? These should enable a fill under pretty much most circumstances.  What contract are you trading, while the US index contracts all appear very liquid, some are more liquid than others?  Does the 'system' work on only certain contracts?  

Now, whats the story with the $50 trading dome fee/month and the $30 fee every three months?  Those sound like fees from a broker?  Are TI getting commissions from the broker for introducing clients?  There are plenty of other futures brokers in the US.  Some charge higher fees, but some charge no fees at all (beyond per-trade commissions).  Have you investigated other brokers?  By the way, can I clarify, trading dome, does that refer to the depth of market ... I imagine it does but want to check.  Just back to brokers, I know one broker in the US that charges no fees beyond commish, free charting (very good charting too - if you have your parameteres I see no reason why you couldn't set up charts on this broker's platform - at no further cost to you ...... now having said that you will want to compare their commission charges, I know they are not the cheapest around).

As to working out a trading plan that suits you ... isn't that what TI is supposed to provide?  

Trading room - and calling out trades.  This might be just me but in the US index futures market trying to get onto a trade that is being 'called out' is an almost certainty of missing the entry, or at least getting set at sub-optimal price, if the 'system' is profitable there should be no need for following someone calling out trades ... maybe this is just an experience/confidence thing ... and that is fair enough if you are inexperienced ... Potential entries can be pre-loaded into the broker software prior to the triger ... if the trigger is hit then you are in, if no trigger then the orders are cancelled with one click on the mouse or one button.

Sorry for all the questions and comments Conpute, but it seems to me you have spent a lot of money, and are expected by TI to spend even more (don't do that), but I think a few of the members on this board could help you out with suggestions in improving your execution, setting the system up in a lower-cost charting package, and so on.  You have spent a lot, but if you are happy with the basic system then you can move forward from here.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

This can all be done for free at www.woodiescciclub.com

You get the setups, trading room, trades called etc., all for nix.

***For information only - not an endorsement.


----------



## julius

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

wayne, from people who know the room well :

you also get a BS strategy

you also get people who lie about charity donations

you also get people who can't trade giving trading calls


----------



## peter2

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Thanks conpute, a really good post. 
How about skyping with a few of the  members so that you can help each other to spot the setups?
Or, one person can join the room and then skype to his mates.

Good luck with your trading.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



julius said:


> wayne, from people who know the room well :
> 
> you also get a BS strategy
> 
> you also get people who lie about charity donations
> 
> you also get people who can't trade giving trading calls




LOL

All true. But it struck me that the indicators/method that TI use (going by what's said here) is conceptually very similar to Woodie's system. And you don't have to pay $$$$$ to find that out.

There was a very good trader a few years ago, a lady called "geo". No nonsense, no BS. Went for the larger swings on a 13 minute chart using woodies signals. As good a day trader as I've ever seen.

Being a no-nonsense sort of gal, she got sick of the BS and left... which was a shame.... The point is that there is nothing wrong with the signals. The problem is trying to turn it into a mechanical system. 

The success is in the discretion of which signals to take, and which to not take.

There are so many systems (well not systems, but methods) that work using the same philosophical basis. For example, many use a MACD 3,10,16 method. It is conceptually identical to the cci. (and really interprets none other than straight price action using moving averages, CCI does this as well)

There are just so many freely available methods that work, providing the R/R parameters and position sizing are right, that to pay 7k +++++ seems crazy. 

At 7k a pop, do you think the TI mob even need to trade? Nope. The money is in selling the system.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

The costs associated with TI are expensive,but so are the costs of being inolved in any business thats your own.Having been in business for the last 7 years,i can tell you that the costs of being with TI arent that much,if what they claim to offer is legit.For example if you wanted to buy an existing business,for every $1000 profit per week you need to spend approx $100,000 on goodwill.Now if the claims by TI are legit you should be able to make $1000 a week with an investemt of about $20,000,and the attraction is that it is possible to make much more than that with little additional investment


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

FWIW Check this video out:

http://madscalper.com/videos/riskVreward/riskVreward.html?aid=8160

It's an ex woodie dude showing one of the strategies potential R/R.

In the world of day trading, nothing works, unless it does. It's up to the individual.

Edit to add: ***again, for information only - not an endorsment.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> The costs associated with TI are expensive,but so are the costs of being inolved in any business thats your own.Having been in business for the last 7 years,i can tell you that the costs of being with TI arent that much,if what they claim to offer is legit.For example if you wanted to buy an existing business,for every $1000 profit per week you need to spend approx $100,000 on goodwill.Now if the claims by TI are legit you should be able to make $1000 a week with an investemt of about $20,000,and the attraction is that it is possible to make much more than that with little additional investment



You're not buying goodwill, you are buying something you can get for free... worse still, a crutch. You are relying on the ability of someone completely outside your control.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

well supposedly you're buying an education.And basically i think for a complete novice to be successful without access to a live trading room and watching the so called pro's do their thing would be very hard,thats just my opinion being a novice.Now apart from the 7 grand and a few other bits and pieces,aren't the other costs assocciated just the cost of doing business,ie charts,brokerage,platforms etc?
 Iam not trying to defend TI,iam not even a member,iam just trying to work out if an investment of my time and money will be worth the risk,ie are the chances of me making money realistic.
 Also has anyone investigated the live trade room offered by puretick?They charge US299 a month for access and no joining fee?


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

This is what makes me sceptical. They talk about there system being 70% correct and making 50% on invested money per day or whatever ....etc.
If you do the maths you would be a raving idiot to sell it for anything.

take that system to the ES with 500 contract position.(plenty of volume to swing such size)
500 ES X 10 points per day(500*$50*10points) is $250,000

That's 5 million per month. you need 700 new customer per month to take that not including all the expensive marketing dept & sales & accounting you would need probably double.

It simply doesn't make sense. Stick a couple of traders in a room and make a couple of hundred mil a year


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> well supposedly you're buying an education.And basically i think for a complete novice to be successful without access to a live trading room and watching the so called pro's do their thing would be very hard,thats just my opinion being a novice.Now apart from the 7 grand and a few other bits and pieces,aren't the other costs assocciated just the cost of doing business,ie charts,brokerage,platforms etc?
> Iam not trying to defend TI,iam not even a member,iam just trying to work out if an investment of my time and money will be worth the risk,ie are the chances of me making money realistic.
> Also has anyone investigated the live trade room offered by puretick?They charge US299 a month for access and no joining fee?




Fair enough. But is the price for the education fair? That's my question. 

Don't know puretick. Another mob that offers day trading edumacation is tradethemarkets.com who charge a monthly subcription fee... plus run the odd seminar. They seem pretty legit and would be a better proposition for beginners (as could puretick if legit). At least you can opt out well before laying out 7k.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> At 7k a pop, do you think the TI mob even need to trade? Nope. The money is in selling the system.






Trembling Hand said:


> This is what makes me sceptical. They talk about there system being 70% correct and making 50% on invested money per day or whatever ....etc.
> If you do the maths you would be a raving idiot to sell it for anything.
> 
> take that system to the ES with 500 contract position.(plenty of volume to swing such size)
> 500 ES X 10 points per day(500*$50*10points) is $250,000
> 
> That's 5 million per month. you need 700 new customer per month to take that not including all the expensive marketing dept & sales & accounting you would need probably double.
> 
> It simply doesn't make sense. Stick a couple of traders in a room and make a couple of hundred mil a year




'zactley.


----------



## szandor

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

50% return on investment does sound like bull*hit,I thought they claimed a 71/2-10% return on investment,which is all I am hoping for.If I can consistently get a 71/2% return on my investment a day I would be very happy and more than willing to spend 7 odd grand to achieve this.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> Fair enough. But is the price for the education fair? That's my question.




Wayne,

In my opinion it is.  The $7k buys you lifetime membership.  That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work.  That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.

Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS.  I find that most perplexing.

Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades.  I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



szandor said:


> 50% return on investment does sound like bull*hit,I thought they claimed a 71/2-10% return on investment,which is all I am hoping for.If I can consistently get a 71/2% return on my investment a day I would be very happy and more than willing to spend 7 odd grand to achieve this.




Its just dumb to even quote a return. I have never seen anyone but newbies and liars talk like that. Experienced futures traders simply don't talk in return on margin.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> Its just dumb to even quote a return. I have never seen anyone but newbies and liars talk like that. Experienced futures traders simply don't talk in return on margin.




Trembling hand,

I mean I have over 70% success in the trades I take.  Not 70% return on margin.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Wayne,
> 
> In my opinion it is.  The $7k buys you lifetime membership.  That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work.  That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.
> 
> Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS.  I find that most perplexing.
> 
> Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades.  I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.



LOL

In two years time, you will think differently... if you survive (and I hope you do).

Cheers


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades.  I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.




That's great. As you have just gone live you must be ecstatic. I have been trading futures for years, full time nearly 3 and I have a win/loss at about 55%. At times its been as high as 90% for some weeks but my most profitable weeks were not the ones that had a high win loss ratio. When you have a couple of hundred trades done you can then start to judge your real expectancy.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

LOL, have finally started reading The New Market Wizards the very next line I read after my last post is from William Eckhardt,

the desire to maximize the number of winning trades(or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance.​
But boy does it help flog systems.


----------



## chops_a_must

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> LOL, have finally started reading The New Market Wizards the very next line I read after my last post is from William Eckhardt,
> 
> the desire to maximize the number of winning trades(or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance.​
> But boy does it help flog systems.




That's right. My most profitable futures trading strategy has been trading intraday breakdowns. Only just shy of 40% winners. But with an expectancy of about 1.2R, the winners are massive.


----------



## conpute

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi,

Traders International is releasing a new indicator this week actually as stated by TI member, it is supposedly showing 85% success rate, it has already been launched to room subscribers already and will be launched to non subscriber tonight. I am not 100% sure on this but have been told by a few member that it will be only available in the room...non subscribers will get room access for 2 weeks for free to see the new indicator in action after which we will then no longer have access unless we subscribe...many of us non subscribers are hoping that it will be available to put onto our own esignals charts but I believe this is not the case at the moment, (one subscriber said this was to protect it from getting out to non members) but may be in the future. So the new indicator may not be available to all TI member. Until I have visited the launch session tonight none of this is confirmed, only what I was told by subscribers who have attended there launch already.


----------



## conpute

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Timmy just to answer your questions.

"Now, whats the story with the $50 trading dome fee/month and the $30 fee every three months? Those sound like fees from a broker?"

Yes this is broker fees, we are encouraged to use the recommended broker as I there has been a discount arranged for us and the trading margins are reduce. We also recieve exceptional support as TI members...but I do not know what support level you get not being a member so have nothing to compare this to. 

The Trading Dome I use is Strategy Runner, the is the dome of choice by TI and they run education classed on using and setting up this dome, so logically new members who do not have previous experience will choose this platform. TI state they get no kick backs from any of these parties, but as there are so many members they are able to negotiate on behalf of us all for better, service, fees margins etc.

"As to working out a trading plan that suits you ... isn't that what TI is supposed to provide?"

TI assist you in creating a trading plan you can send it in and they will critique your plan and assist you in getting it right for you. They do not put out one plan for all as this would assume we are all the same sort of trader. We are encouraged during our sim trading time to find a way of trading that suits our personality and build a plan from this. Some traders are aggressive traders will jump on more trades and take more risks. I am a very conservative trader, I take less trades waiting for high probability trades.

"trying to get onto a trade that is being 'called out' is an almost certainty of missing the entry"

The trades are not normally called out intime for you to get on them, rather they are discussed as they are forming as there is a probabal trade accuring on such and such trade, this is the confirming candle, then it is up to us as traders to decide if this trade meets our personal plan and if so get on to the trade when it has confirmed. The time to get on to a trade varies as you know, when the confirming candle has completed, you then need to get on at close price and as I said sometimes you miss out. This is not TI fault or the traders fault, sometimes it just moves off fast and you just miss out...this does not bother me, there is always another trade around the corner and we are taught never to chases a trade.

We use esignal charts as they are the charts used in the room, and they are the charts that TI support by way of full education in setting them up etc for the TI methodology. 

Sor for beginners like myself it is best to go with the flow so that everything you are using for your trading is all supported in one place, with heaps of videos and classes  to help you understand these platforms. You do not have to use these products though you may use any you choose, but you will need to know how to use them as they can not support every platform, so pick one and support it fully.
You may use any broker you wish, but if you have trouble with the TI recommended broker you may contact TI and they will act on your behalf to help clear up the matter, so you have a bit of added insurance that you are not just a number to some big broker firm. I have nothing but praise for the recommended firm, they have answered all my emails in less than an hour sometimes in 5 mins, and the trading desk pick up evertime with an actual person ready to help you. Not sure if this is because of TI or they are just a great borker firm.

As I have said Ti is fantastic, they have great training and support, a fantastic product, and if your consistent and disciplined I believe 100% that you can make a career out of trading the TI methodology, I would not continue on night after night if I though otherwise.

My only beef with TI is the small amount of room time your receive, the ongoing cost of the room and the possibility that with new indicators coming out over the nest few weeks may only be available in the room.

If the room amount is affordable to you I highly recommend TI, if your on  a tight budget and can not afford the room then it will make the program very difficult for you. 
Of course if these new indicators are as successful as they say and all the back studies etc. are correct then the room will be a small price to pay for there use I guess, but I still like to have everything on my own charts to manipulate as I see fit, to be dependent on the room is not a good option as they do have there amount of down times, issues and lag, like any program I guess.

Subscribers are also sms all potential trades, it states possible trade forming on such and such chart...this allerts you to go and have a look at your own charts or room charts and prepare for a possible signal..this allert service is only in pre market not cash market. It would not be possible in cash market as it moves to fast, and you are generally there watching anyway.

They are also introducing the ability to place trades in premarket by mobile, so if your were out, got a sms of a potential trade you can mobile in and say if it confirms put me in. That is a fantastic idea..and may also make the room subscription worth the $$.

I you have any more questions re TI I will answer them honestly.
I do not know if there is better programs as I was recommended to this by a family member and new nothing about day trading. I also wanted to be using the same program so we could support each other.


----------



## julius

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Wayne you make a valid point re: revenue from selling the system

but the flip side of it is - if they didn't charge alot for the system they claim is profitable would you be more or less worried ? there has to be some incentive to sell the system right...

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Automated-Computer-Forex-System-Trade-4x-easy-MT4-EA_W0QQitemZ150223976010QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3769QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

same goes for the chat room - yes it is expensive & ongoing... but this means they have a vested interest in keeping the system working

there's a moral debate at play here because most of us who post on ASF are self educated (ie. forums), so the idea of paying for education doesn't neccesarily sit well

your right, 6 months down the track many people who forked out the 7k may have a different outlook, but from what I saw, at the very least they shouldn't be any poorer, which wouldn't be a bad start in itself. how easy is it to lose 7k trading derivatives ?


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi  Con,

Have to apologise, from your first post it appeared you were having a tough time (and I am not surprised) but now I see you appear to to be fine.  Belief is a great thing, please let us know in a few months time if it has tallied with reality.



conpute said:


> supposedly showing 85% success rate




85% success rate, hey?  Bullsh*t. Sorry but I don't know how else to phrase it.

Good luck Con


----------



## chops_a_must

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



julius said:


> how easy is it to lose 7k trading derivatives ?



Incredibly.

Check out high probability trader's blog.

P.S. I'd love to see the results when everyone begins trying to enter on the same point and moving the market...


----------



## julius

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



chops_a_must said:


> Incredibly.
> 
> Check out high probability trader's blog.
> 
> P.S. I'd love to see the results when everyone begins trying to enter on the same point and moving the market...




link me please


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> Wayne,
> 
> In my opinion it is.  The $7k buys you lifetime membership.  That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work.  That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.
> 
> Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS.  I find that most perplexing.
> 
> Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades.  I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.





I'm not so sure about whether 7K is worth it for what you get from TI. For the same 7K you can get 18 months or more in the Puretick trading room - and after a while of being in the room if you have 2 successive profitable months you can join the Puretick alumni where you pay almost nothing to stay in the room. That seems like much better value to me (which is one of the reasons I joined Puretick).

Time is a big factor in a trading education - many successful traders were losers for several years, but because they had sufficient capital they were able to turn themselves through the experience they gained by time in the market.


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Guess that is why they charge the $7K.


Teach you their system
Have someone mentor you through your early trades

Newbies with no such support can lose much more than $7k.

The question really is, will they deliver what they promise?


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> Best way to shut up the skeptical is to post your trades real time in the an appropriate thread. Like this one. Or send some statements to some senior members.
> 
> One problem with TI is their kick backs for recruiting other members. Always makes people skeptical that the praise is genuine as many have an interest in it looking like "THE" system.




<BURP> oh...excuse me ... too much spam...

Well, some fabulous posts on this thread, the one I quoted above being the best I reckon.

Precious little posting of trades going on to show what a great system this TI mob has.  

In the abscence of posting trades can we at least get a spreadsheet showing the kickbacks received by existing members for signing up new suc ... sorry new members?  How much of the $7K does an existing member get?  Do you get a greater proportion the more newbies you sign up?  Do you have to buy soap products too or is that just Amway?

Nearly dinner time here, looks like spam again.  With a BS sauce .... mmmm....BS.


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



nighteyes said:


> Guess that is why they charge the $7K.
> 
> 
> Teach you their system
> Have someone mentor you through your early trades
> 
> Newbies with no such support can lose much more than $7k.
> 
> The question really is, will they deliver what they promise?




True, but the problem is that 7K only let's you in for a few months. Realistically, you can't become a good trader in that length of time. Having a coach for a year or more is the way to go.


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Definitely agree with that

Guess I'll find out for sure now cos I decided to bite the bullet and try it? Time will tell if I end up cursing my impulsiveness


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Out of curiosity Rockhoundnz

How are you finding puretick. From what I read of his postings and others about them, he seemed pretty genuine in his belief that his system will help noobs overall.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Goodluck with it Nighteyes.  I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Thanks TI


----------



## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



nighteyes said:


> Out of curiosity Rockhoundnz
> 
> How are you finding puretick. From what I read of his postings and others about them, he seemed pretty genuine in his belief that his system will help noobs overall.




I'm very happy with Puretick. They're approach is realistic and with the goal of helping you become a great trader over the time it really takes (years). Their calls are great - the track record on their website is real, and achieveable. The trading room is great with lots of nice people in it, and Alex does his best to answer as many questions as possible. I couldn't be happier really. I also like their pricing - at US$299 a month I can afford to stay with them for 18 months or more for the same money as I'd get just a few months with TI. Please feel free to email me if you have any other questions about them (same goes to anyone else that's interested in them).


----------



## skitz_82

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Hi guys, 

Just thoughts I'd post up a reply about Traders International.

This is a longish post so ignore if you don't have the patience lol.


My background, I'm currently into property investment and I have just finished renovating 2 units in the last 6 months from which I will be taking the tidy profits to invest more shares into portfolio margining or and also to buy the Traders International course. I am new to eminis but I am not new to share trading and property investment, but thought trading eminis would help provide cashflow.

My thoughts on TI as TI Member suggest is that they are legit, and so far I haven't really been able to fault them so far. I have watched a few of their webinars and been to that $500 course night which I managed to get for free. All their results are transparent, and you can check them the website, they even list the trades, day, time, short/long, which index etc.

By ASIC they are only allowed to list 10% profit/loss ratio, with around 70% probability of winning. Noobies will follow the 2point profit/loss while more advanced traders will use still a 10% loss with scale out, or trailing stop losses to clock around 20-40% returns, so even if you have a 50/50 winners losers, you're more likely to make back your money as winners are more profitable than what you'd loose.

Yes 7000 AUS is alot to fork out, they are currently being marketed by Empowernet, Eminis Global from 21 Century Academy (which is reputable) and a few other companies. There are other options you can opt for which is what I will be doing, 3 payments of ~2500 or Half of 3500 and the rest in 10 payements over 10 months or something similar. You need around $2-4k to start trading to be able to sustain the loses for newbie mistakes and not have that scarcity mentality. This is just the price of trading, which I don't consider to be high as an investor.

I agree the hidden costs are high especially those on a budget, eg. room access, data feeds etc, but I think this is a small price to pay for the amount of live support you get which I think is important. I've seen the course from a mate who is making a tidy profit from it too, and the material is pretty basic, but who said things needed to be complicated to make $$?

All in all, I guess since I spent the better half of a few months making my profit from renovations, I'm willing to spend the money as I would rather not waste my time combing free material off the net (sometimes free advice is the most expensive advice), and learning it from scratch. 

I also don't believe it takes years to be profitable from it. I can relate, I spent 3 years learning fitness and nutrition to almost personal trainer level, to get it right, but I taught a out of shape mate how to do a body transformation in 6 weeks, who was a total newbie, who pretty much clocked almost a 6 pack in 6 weeks. He just profited from my 3 years of experience, and we put together a solid diet/exercise plan and had strict discipline and focus, this would be very similar to investing. Now I'm thinking why wouldn't I want to do the same? I'm a newbie so I rather pay someone to teach me and save my own time. Like I learnt at the Anthony Robbins seminar, find the best and model them.

Sorry about the long post and off tangent topics, but I did want to post my thoughts. I won't mention much more till I trade live in 2-3 weeks time, so I can prove the results and show how good/bad they are. I will try to will remain neutral (maybe slightly above) but I will post accurate repsentations of my results, I will also look into Puretick for comparisions. Hopefully this will get me towards my Alfa Romeo 8c spider by the end of the year =D

Cheers!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



skitz_82 said:


> ...21 Century Academy (which is reputable)



You lost me right there skitz, LOL

Suspected VI


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Wayne,

I think you misunderstand the post from skitz_82.  The reason 21Century was mentioned favourably is because 21Century are a marketing partner of Traders International - they cross-sell each others products for good-sized commissions all round.  Of the $7000 initial start-up cost of the scheme, about $3000 will go to the seller as commission, then the ongoing expensive fees which the real users of Traders International have posted about so unhappily provide a trailing commission, again in the realm of 40% commission to the seller.  Make no mistake Wayne, the talking up of 21Century is a pure cross-promotion, there is a LOT of money being earnt out of Traders International and its not by the users I can assure you.

The post from skitz_82 is the next level of forum spamming.  The poster sounds all reasonable and down-to-earth, but anyone with a clue about marketing can see the sophisticated nature of the spam and see the buttons he is pushing.  It is easy to take advantage of people when you know about these buttons.

Yes, he agrees the fees are too high, and then cleverly says "but ... (the but is always a dead giveaway) ... a small price to pay..."  Very clever indeed.   Look then how the spammer outlines the easy payment options, how he portrays himself as a successful investor - oh yes this one is slick.  He even has a mate who is "making a tidy profit" - of course.  In a way you have to admire him, he is cleverly earning the commission dollars.  The 'kickbacks' to existing members to the scheme for signing up new members is also a very clever, insidious way of preventing the truth being told.  It is advantageous to fool others into spending for the 'system' and to keep quiet about the schemes problems and losses in the hope of recovering your losses.

To readers of this scam, don't be fooled.  The spammers are getting more sophisticated, that is all.  They are relying on your gullibility.  You know what they say about a fool and his money are soon parted, well this spammer is taking advantage of this to earn a $3,000 commission on the initital $7,000 scheme fee and the ongoing, hidden fees.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

A five star post there Timmy. But perhaps I was being too obtuse, that's exactly what I mean by VI (vested interest).

You laid out the whole ruse to a "T".


----------



## RichKid

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Great pick up there Timmy. 

Skitz has used all the sales tricks from establishing credentials ('successful property investor with spare cash and experience in shares') and feigning empathy with those who might prefer to find substitutes (eg 'the course isn't cheap but it's worth' it....'free advice is the most expensive') to pushing the buttons of people struggling to change for the better (couldn't lose weight/get fit and now he is so good he teaches others how to do it, all in just six weeks). 

Talk about cross selling internally- this guy will make you wealthy, healthy and happy, just fork out your hard earned pronto)....etc etc, and with a name like Anthony Robbins thrown in there for good measure. But he's not as crude as some others, just be prepared to lose a few k along the way, the pain is part of the game, that should keep the poor punter hooked a bit longer than in the less sophisticated schemes. Utterly shameless.

21st century academy caught my eye too, see what ASIC had to say about them- ASFers can search our forums for discussion of how they operate and who's behind it.


----------



## barney

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

When someone comes on ASF and their first post is a sales pitch, thats about as subtle as being hit between the eyes with a sledge hammer. :bonk: Been happening a fair bit lately I've noticed. You'd think these "sellers" would be a bit smarter than that ........ Doh :homer:

I've watched the TI intro DVD ........... nothing wrong with it ......... but if you can use a MACD and Stochastic indicator, you don't need to part with thousands of dollars ................ As Wayne and others have eluded to on this and other threads, the psych aspect of trading with real money is where most traders come undone ..... myself included ................ and you can't "teach" someone how to fix that.

Have a good weekend gentlemen .... I'm off to play lawn bowls, which is about the full extent of my physical capabilities nowdays. 
                    :run:


----------



## professor_frink

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Rockhoundnz said:


> I'm very happy with Puretick. They're approach is realistic and with the goal of helping you become a great trader over the time it really takes (years). Their calls are great - the track record on their website is real, and achieveable. The trading room is great with lots of nice people in it, and Alex does his best to answer as many questions as possible. I couldn't be happier really. I also like their pricing - at US$299 a month I can afford to stay with them for 18 months or more for the same money as I'd get just a few months with TI. Please feel free to email me if you have any other questions about them (same goes to anyone else that's interested in them).




Interesting to see puretick mentioned here. I had no idea they were so expensive. They have reps/spruikers posting at another forum I visit from time to time, and I can't really say I've seen anything posted by them there that would motivate me to pay $50 a month for, let alone 300

From what I have seen here in this thread, and from other spruikers for these types of chatroom/mentoring setups, most people would be much better off spending time on open, free forums like this one(and a few others) reading posts, and talking to other traders that are trading the markets they are interested in. Doesn't cost anything, and most would be surprised at what can be learnt for free by talking to the traders that are out there.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



professor_frink said:


> Doesn't cost anything, and most would be surprised at what can be learnt for free by talking to the traders that are out there.




Yes and the first thing they would probably learn is to stop talking in return on margin. How dangerous are these IDIOTS who take thousands from the first time punter and don't even set them up with the right metrics to be profitable.

I have never seen an experienced trader quote return on margin numbers. Only spruikers.


----------



## skitz_82

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Well guys thanks for the flame, even though I was posting my honest thoughts. I just got back from helping a mate with his renovations work and read a whole bunch of posts thinking I'm trying to scam everyone, nice to be hated.

I don't mean to sound like a sales pitch and I'm sorry if I did, as I don't actually work for 21st century academy or TI, nor have I ever worked in a sales career. I just felt bad TI member was getting flamed for posting his posts which I thought wasn't a bunch of sales pitch and mumble, so I thought I'd defend him.

I don't see why we can't post some positive information about our thoughts and reccomendations especially since there are so many negative ones.

Yes I have been to a Anthony Robbins Seminar in Sydney, but I don't see anything wrong with promoting Anthony robbins as I learnt alot from the seminar which I went to last year. Why do you recomend a good book or restaurant without working for them.

I'm not a rich millionaire entrepeneur, but I am working on my way there, aren't we all? Why pay for a course? Why do you pay to go to University instead of paying to go to the local Tafe, or would you rather try to learn a degree from the Internet and free information?

My properties are legit and are in a area called Queanbeyan NSW which is on the border of Canberra, and if you're in the local area passing by in Canberra I dont' mind showing you the property and sales information and the renovation work either just personal message me, and no I didn't make money from them by a magical wand or book, it was called hard work and research and some advice.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, I guess we all do, so I applaude you guys for having success doing things your own way, but don't just flame people cause they are doing things differently.

Those who are TI memebers already I would like to catch up though to discuss. Maybe I'll have to do day trip if you're near by.

Well keep up the work everyone, I don't see that I would have to justify what I posted earlier, its just what I thought, but this was a fair go, if not well I can't change the minds of everyone. 

----
I must be quite good at sales, however as I was doing all these advanced techniques without even knowing, so good on me.

I used an analogy of fitness because thats what I enjoy doing as a passion, and I can relate it to investing. I taught a mate a process for fitness in this case and taught him shortcuts which I spent some time learning. Anythign wrong with this? 

And when did I claim to make people healthy, wealthy and happy, I've just been talking about my experiences, and I havent' asked anyone for their money either, nor do I want it.

21st Century Academy and Empowernet  I heard about from a friend which was how I got introduced to Anthony Robbins Seminar. So yes they are all Interlinked, but thats how they promote each other. So I can see how this seems as a sales pitch. TI is marketed by 21st, and empowernet, and a few companies, I think thats just how they work. Well fair go, I won't mention anything else, cause it seems a bit futile. Just my thoughts.


----------



## chops_a_must

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Given the obvious benefits to ramping this business, perhaps anyone spruiking it should be automatically banned?

Also, Wayne... if that is your new blog... well done. Looks great, I love it.

I make sure I click the ads on blogs I like... so, that wont be a problem.


----------



## skitz_82

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

I will ask the moderator to remove my first post, I did not intend to market, offend or try to scam people, since I am not actually asking anyone for their money nor do I want to be seen that way.

This was a post about TI so I thought I'd mention what I thought about TI. Mention of other companies, was just a stated fact because thats how they market each other, I forgot how it would seem like a marketing pitch.

Obviously if you're paying down the mortage and struggling with bills it would not be smart to put your life savings and hope it all on this course. Do your due dilligence with seminars and courses but try to get a more netreul view from people who have had good and bad experiences from any course or seminar.


----------



## barney

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



skitz_82 said:


> I will ask the moderator to remove my first post, I did not intend to market, offend or try to scam people, since I am not actually asking anyone for their money nor do I want to be seen that way.
> 
> This was a post about TI so I thought I'd mention what I thought about TI. Mention of other companies, was just a stated fact because thats how they market each other, I forgot how it would seem like a marketing pitch.
> 
> Obviously if you're paying down the mortage and struggling with bills it would not be smart to put your life savings and hope it all on this course. Do your due dilligence with seminars and courses but try to get a more netreul view from people who have had good and bad experiences from any course or seminar.





Hi Skitz,  I'm sure you are a decent guy (nothing wrong with sales), but the fact that it was your first post is what swayed it for me ........... If you are promoting TI ..... fine with me ..... everyone has to make up their own mind whether they pay for info etc or not, but, you'll probably find most at ASF are a little mor savvy than most ............. If you had already posted 100+ posts on various other subjects/topics, your post would have carried a lot more weight .............. Just my observation ........... I'm sure others would agree......... All the best.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



chops_a_must said:


> Given the obvious benefits to ramping this business, perhaps anyone spruiking it should be automatically banned?
> 
> Also, Wayne... if that is your new blog... well done. Looks great, I love it.
> 
> I make sure I click the ads on blogs I like... so, that wont be a problem.



Thanks Chops

I'm hoping it turns into something useful.


----------



## Bigglesaust

*Traders International  v's PureTick for Eminis*

Hi gang, 

there have been a number of post on TI and puretick i've seen on the site however many are a few years old. I was wondering if there wasn any recent feedback on the systems that both use and the benefits of either   . Any feedback on these guys would be interesting as i'd like to look at Eminis but am conscious of the 7k investment upfrom for TI for example and ongoing costs

thanks 

Nigel


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Yes Traders Int. keeps spamming this forum but no-one will post any results!  They are very defensive and obviously have things to hide.  Good commissions if you can get a job selling their product though - the salesman gets about $3000 of the $7000 sale price!


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International  v's PureTick for Eminis*



Bigglesaust said:


> Hi gang,
> 
> there have been a number of post on TI and puretick i've seen on the site however many are a few years old. I was wondering if there wasn any recent feedback on the systems that both use and the benefits of either   . Any feedback on these guys would be interesting as i'd like to look at Eminis but am conscious of the 7k investment upfrom for TI for example and ongoing costs
> 
> thanks
> 
> Nigel




Please use there correct name. Futures! If you are going to pay someone over $7000 you would at least expect they tell you the right names. Instead of some warm and fuzzy cuddly name. Futures!!!!


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Bigglesaust said:


> Hi gang,
> 
> there have been a number of post on TI and puretick i've seen on the site however many are a few years old. I was wondering if there wasn any recent feedback on the systems that both use and the benefits of either   . Any feedback on these guys would be interesting as i'd like to look at Eminis but am conscious of the 7k investment upfrom for TI for example and ongoing costs
> 
> thanks
> 
> Nigel




Nigel

I did a lot of searching on the net and chose David Marsh, Puretick and TI to look further into.

After a lot of indecision, I took the plunge and went for TI. Jury is still out but it looks promising for me. More than happy to share the results of my play account with you (warts and all).

The ongoing monthly costs are fairly high ($250-500US) depending on which option you take. Other hidden costs I found was broker costs of $50US for each withdrawal.

There is also a cost for eSignal (the charting software by another crowd) but this is not essential, at least for the noobs like me. Don't know the costs yet, waiting for a reply from the company.

I am interested in how Rockhoundnz is doing with Puretick too and have so far not found anyone who has tried the David Marsh system as i would love to hear how they are doing.

For the more senior posters, I am not a spruiker, just a noob looking for answers and looking for a place to share experiences, both good and bad. In reading the posts so far, it seems easier to share bad experience but sharing good or mildly positive news takes some courage.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



nighteyes said:


> Jury is still out but it looks promising for me. More than happy to share the results of my play account with you (warts and all).




We would all welcome some actual trading results.

The funny thing is the best way to shut us up is to do just that. But no one ever does


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> We would all welcome some actual trading results.
> 
> The funny thing is the best way to shut us up is to do just that. But no one ever does




Hi Trembling Hand

I will try and post the results of my play trading account and send you the URL if you like. That would actually be a help to me to maintain discipline knowing I have someone else looking over my shoulders before I commit any real money cos the only one I will be fooling is myself otherwise.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



nighteyes said:


> Hi Trembling Hand
> 
> I will try and post the results of my play trading account and send you the URL if you like. That would actually be a help to me to maintain discipline knowing I have someone else looking over my shoulders before I commit any real money cos the only one I will be fooling is myself otherwise.




The best trading tool is your own trading journal with full and honest results. Especially a running expectancy. Very easy to ignore the bad and over emphasize the good.

So whether you post it or not don't make a trade without documenting it. If you let the trades go without recording them you are wasting the biggest chance you have got of getting better.

One thing that I think that helps is starting your P&L a new at the start of the month. Gives you a point to wipe the slate clean and try and not repeat mistakes that you did last month.


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> Best way to shut up the skeptical is to post your trades real time in the an appropriate thread. Like this one. Or send some statements to some senior members.
> 
> One problem with TI is their kick backs for recruiting other members. Always makes people skeptical that the praise is genuine as many have an interest in it looking like "THE" system.




I just thought I would quote TH here again because there is little posting of trades going on.  If anyone decides to post some trades there are some ground rules, that TH has already stated above.

1. The trades should be posted REAL TIME, this is the only way to maintain credibility.  It is all to easy to make yourself look like a legend by posting bodgy trades after the event.  Have the thread open, a reply ready to go and straight after you make your buy or sell, post it on ASF. Anything else is open to fraudulent behaviour or manipulation.  Some of these attempts at fraudulent postings are laughable in their transparency.
2.  Posting of real time trades need then be backed up by sending some statements to senior ASF members.  These will be treated in confidence.


----------



## nighteyes

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

TH

That is a very good point wrt having a proper controlled environment as I have been doing both real and play/testing in the same account so even though I believe I have been fairly disciplined, I would never be sure.

I will request a new demo account and use that for the next 5 days. I was intending to go to live by this time next week so wont have the time after that.

Timmy, the trades are recorded as transactions in the SR account and are 'live' as far as demo accounts are concerned i.e. the getting in and out of trades are progammatically set and not the result of actual transactions. The SR report gives it warts and all.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> We would all welcome some actual trading results.
> 
> The funny thing is the best way to shut us up is to do just that. But no one ever does





TH,

Very suprised with this post.  I have posted my results from my LIVE account back on page 4 of this topic however it still doesn't seem shut you up or others who have such a negative view of a system that you have never tried.  

What you and others like you are doing to this forum is causing it to lose a lot of credability.  All you do is attack someone who has an opinion (which they are entitled to and often more educated about).  This sort of behaviour/bullying only discourages people who have a positive experience with a system you don't agree on from posting any comments for fear of being attacked.

I think you should all take a good long hard look at yourselves and start showing the appropriate behaviour to create a fair and balanced forum.


----------



## chops_a_must

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> TH,
> 
> Very suprised with this post.  I have posted my results from my LIVE account back on page 4 of this topic however it still doesn't seem shut you up or others who have such a negative view of a system that you have never tried.
> 
> What you and others like you are doing to this forum is causing it to lose a lot of credability.  All you do is attack someone who has an opinion (which they are entitled to and often more educated about).  This sort of behaviour/bullying only discourages people who have a positive experience with a system you don't agree on from posting any comments for fear of being attacked.
> 
> I think you should all take a good long hard look at yourselves and start showing the appropriate behaviour to create a fair and balanced forum.




I think someone with credibility should at least be able to give accurate percentage results, not the tripe that you have posted, and the questions of such which you didn't respond to properly. You just began to attack a very experienced and credible trader.

If I use your calculations, I am doing something like 20% per week. Which is complete crap. That's my target for a year!

You'd have someone like TH going at a rate of return at probably a 1000% per week or something ridiculous on this method.

Smarten up before you accuse others of credibility issues. Otherwise, you will continue to be flamed. Especially when people touting this TI bollocks clearly have absolutely no idea.

I think this thread should be locked, because it is just spam.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> TH,
> 
> Very suprised with this post.  I have posted my results from my LIVE account back on page 4 of this topic however it still doesn't seem shut you up or others who have such a negative view of a system that you have never tried.
> 
> What you and others like you are doing to this forum is causing it to lose a lot of credability.  All you do is attack someone who has an opinion (which they are entitled to and often more educated about).  This sort of behaviour/bullying only discourages people who have a positive experience with a system you don't agree on from posting any comments for fear of being attacked.
> 
> I think you should all take a good long hard look at yourselves and start showing the appropriate behaviour to create a fair and balanced forum.



Rubbish! LOL

This forum has maximum credibility exactly because we question. To question and verify is scientific. 

...and the bitter truth, is that most of us know about the vested interest of TI members to sign new people on. SPAM is endemic on the internet and despite the laughable attempt at subterfuge, people can sniff out spammers from a mile away... even sophisticated spam.

Look, there a quite a few FREE trading rooms on IRC (apart from woodie) where you will learn far more than TI will ever teach you... FREE!

Your paying 7 big ones ferchrissake for something that lots of folks are more than happy to give away.

TH's post is not negative in the slightest, it merely asks for verification. That's positive because you can prove it if you want.

If you want to prove yourself and your system, you've been told what to do, post real time trades.

And ferchrissake, anyone who post results as a % of margin will be flamed mercilessly.


----------



## TI Member

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

I'll put the challenge out to those who critise me and my results.  How about you post how well you are trading.  In my opinion you still have a long way to go from convincing me of how successful your trading system is.

Put up or shut up.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> I'll put the challenge out to those who critise me and my results.  How about you post how well you are trading.  In my opinion you still have a long way to go from convincing me of how successful your trading system is.
> 
> Put up or shut up.



No one is criticizing you, just asking for verification of your claims.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> I'll put the challenge out to those who critise me and my results.  How about you post how well you are trading.  In my opinion you still have a long way to go from convincing me of how successful your trading system is.
> 
> Put up or shut up.




Sorry to offend but 1 day doesn't make a system. To build some sort of credibility you are gonna need more than 1 day!!

As far as results. You could have a look here or the SPI thread or email me with your statements and I will more than happy send you mine.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Guys

Check out this TI video from Friday's trading. http://www.tradersinternational.com/recaps/2008/03/28/28.html

One of the most atrocious examples of hindsight trading I've ever seen. Anybody who's been around index futures longer than 45 seconds will see this instantly.


----------



## hissho

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



> "anyone who post results as a % of margin will be flamed mercilessly"




Just being curious, may I ask why? I guess maybe it's because it's too dangerous to think that way? I know a lot of spammers love doing that...

thanks
hissho


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



hissho said:


> Just being curious, may I ask why? I guess maybe it's because it's too dangerous to think that way? I know a lot of spammers love doing that...
> 
> thanks
> hissho



Yes,

It in no way reflects the amount of capital required to trade futures. 

Also day margin varies among brokers and at different times.

Some brokers will let you trade on $500 margin, some $1,000, some at half the overnight margin. Recently IB suspended day margins for a time because of the volatility.

This begs the question; what margin should we calculate profits (and losses) on.

For a fair dinkum trader, margin is inconsequential as you will need some cash reserves (most say a minimum in the region of $15,000 per ES contract) in order to trade properly and to have a chance at long term survival.

This is the figure profit and loss should be calculated on... total capital.


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



TI Member said:


> What you and others like you are doing to this forum is causing it to lose a lot of credability.




T I Spammer lecturing on credibility - that is just too hilarious!

How about this for credibility T I Spammer ... you make significant money frrom kickbacks when you sign up a new member to your scheme ... how about detailing the kickbacks, just to add to your <ahem> credibility ?


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> It in no way reflects the amount of capital required to trade futures.
> 
> 
> For a fair dinkum trader, margin is inconsequential as you will need some cash reserves (most say a minimum in the region of $15,000 per ES contract) in order to trade properly and to have a chance at long term survival.
> 
> This is the figure profit and loss should be calculated on... total capital.




A food business doesn't get in a litre of milk for $1 dollar, sell it for $2 dollars and then say they are making 100% return.(unless they are idiots)

They work out all their takings subtract all their expenses get a net profit then divide it over their initial investment. That is their return. You cannot sell a biz on the last sale through the cash register. Same with trading it ain't the last good trade you did. Its the last week, months, Quarter etc.

You cannot trade Futures on minimum margin. You need 10 to 20 times minimum margin to run this business. If they had their customers best interest in mind they would tell them this. They would not EVER quote return on minimum margin. But they haven't got their customers best interest in mind they just want to numb their brains with nice fairy tales like 50% return on margin.


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## chops_a_must

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> Guys
> 
> Check out this TI video from Friday's trading. http://www.tradersinternational.com/recaps/2008/03/28/28.html
> 
> One of the most atrocious examples of hindsight trading I've ever seen. Anybody who's been around index futures longer than 45 seconds will see this instantly.




AHahahahahaha!

In the first minute it looks like they skip over 5 massive losses.

Why pay 7k for someone telling you that it's at a pivot point or fib level?

And there isn't anyway to test those adequately I do not think... so they are just forking out huge bucks for a discretionary trader's entries.

So much for the proven 70% accuracy...


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## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International  v's PureTick for Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> Please use there correct name. Futures! If you are going to pay someone over $7000 you would at least expect they tell you the right names. Instead of some warm and fuzzy cuddly name. Futures!!!!




What's wrong with "eminis"? It's more specific than "futures" and the name is used commonly amongst traders including the floor traders.


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## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



Trembling Hand said:


> You cannot trade Futures on minimum margin. You need 10 to 20 times minimum margin to run this business. If they had their customers best interest in mind they would tell them this. They would not EVER quote return on minimum margin. But they haven't got their customers best interest in mind they just want to numb their brains with nice fairy tales like 50% return on margin.




This is good advice - the number of newbie traders you hear about starting with $2000 is just a joke. Being under capitalised is one of the most common reasons for blowing out an account.


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## Rockhoundnz

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*



wayneL said:


> Rubbish! LOL
> 
> This forum has maximum credibility exactly because we question. To question and verify is scientific.




I totally agree with this - you can't argue with hard facts. Having said that, we should be cautious not to over-interpret the results of one person - just because an individual has good or bad results doesn't mean that the room they belong to does (although, it's probably unlikely that a room member will significantly outperform the trading room and choose to stay in the room). And it's not always easy to post live results, especially with scalp trades or short-term retracement trades - for instance, some of the Puretick trades are over within a few seconds to a few minutes. Puretick do post the trade by trade track record for each day on their website though - does anyone know if TI do that?

I think it is also valuable to get some subjective feedback about various trading rooms as well as just trading results - I'm sure people want to know what it's like being in a room and so on, not just whether the trades are good. 

Similarly, the reason I first posted in this thread wasn't to post my trading results, but to let people know the reasons I chose Puretick over TI, because I thought that might be useful for others trying to decide whether to go with TI or someone else. Some of my reasons (that related to TI) were these:

1. TI has an online client testimonial video in which Peter Elsworth (he's the grey-haired Australian you see in most of the sales vids that TI have - just search for Traders International on YouTube to see those) and he is portrayed as being a client giving a testimonial in the video - which I think is very misleading on TI's part (they should at the very least delete his testimonial). I think they've made a real marketing no-no there.

2. For $7000 you get a few months membership to TI (someone please correct me if I'm wrong there), whereas for the same amount of money I'm getting 20 months worth of membership to Puretick, plus Puretick gives me the chance to join their 'alumni' and pay almost zero subscription fee once I have had two consecutive months of profitable trading results, which I really like.

I hope that information is useful in helping people decide whether TI is the sort of operator they want to deal with.


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## caribean

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Switching the guru voice off, was much easier to take,
There were some great opportunity's to take trades, but not using some divergence, or indicator...did you spot the little bear trap?
I don't know for sure (i don't know that many pro traders), but, i don't think an experienced trader would be using such "indicators" to trade.
The only reason he or she would use indicators is to create a mechanical "system" a new trader can follow blindly, so it can be flogged as a "system".
Entry might be precise enough, but if you use the same indicator for an exit
then you'll miss 3/4 or worst of a given move, just my opinion.


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Traders International  v's PureTick for Eminis*



Rockhoundnz said:


> What's wrong with "eminis"? It's more specific than "futures" and the name is used commonly amongst traders including the floor traders.




No its not. Tell me whats the difference between Futures contracts and your "eminis"??

What floor traders?? the only futures exchange that still has trading pits is NYBOT & a couple on the CME. I don't see what you mean about "floor traders" what have they to do with anything? They account for a tiny portion of futures contracts. And are mostly covering Agriculture.


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## Selecta

*Traders International FX*

Is anyone on ASF signed up with Traders International and following their supposedly highly successful FX trading room with Erica Villalon?

Big claims of around 6000 pips since September last year.  I know there is plenty of negativity on their emini programs and previous incarnations.

Funnily enough though no-one that i can find in my extensive 'google' searches is raving about their latest success.  

Curiousity is killing me though.... someone? anyone?

Thanks

Selecta


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## professor_frink

*Re: Traders International FX*



Selecta said:


> Funnily enough though no-one that i can find in my extensive 'google' searches is raving about their latest success.




that should say quite a bit then shouldn't it!



Have moved this into the existing TI thread


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## professor_frink

*Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis*

Just on this mob, I cam across this site discussing Traders International today:

http://www.tradersnarrative.com/caveat-venditor-117.html



> An interesting bit of drama played out a few days ago inside the EliteTrader messageboard. After becoming a paid sponsor, Traders International started posting about their star trading teacher Franz Shoar (Faramarz Vahdatshoar).
> 
> At TI, Franz, was supposedly trading the spoos live, and pulled in hundreds of thousands of dollars a day on average. For a fee, he was willing to teach anyone by letting them look over his shoulder.






> We were told not soon after that yes, Franz was on a simulator. Those dollars that he was throwing around were just digits dancing on the monitor and were not really in play.
> 
> Next thing we know, Franz “retired”, due to bad health; TI’s website was overhauled and all mentions of Franz excised and the threads on ET were also erased.


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## baby_swallow

*Re: Traders International FX*



Selecta said:


> Curiousity is killing me though.... someone? anyone?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Selecta




TI method is ultra scalping taking signals from divergence of price to MACD and Stoch. Most of the time, it doesnt work, especially during trend days.
Almost all  of the followers (students) blow their aacounts within 3 months of tutoring. They are like  Lemmings blindly following their leader to the abyss.  
Better off giving your $7000 to charity, or go to the casino you have better odds of winning.


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## Selecta

I'd almost forgotten about TI but went back to their site recently to look at the results....horrible couple of months on the FX by the looks of it.  No wonder they haven't called me recently......

Selecta


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## RazzaDazzla

Guy I know just told me himself buying a $5k course with Traders International and now he is a "Futures Trader" trading $10 a tick.

My stomach sank when he told me how much he'd forked out. 

Is he onto a ridgy didge organisation here that's going to help him in the long run, or is he in a holding pattern in the beginners cycle?


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## Timmy

RazzaDazzla said:


> Is he onto a ridgy didge organisation here that's going to help him in the long run, or is he in a holding pattern in the beginners cycle?




I would suggest the latter, but hey, live and learn.


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## RazzaDazzla

Timmy said:


> I would suggest the latter, but hey, live and learn.




I suspected that may be the case.


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