# Time to spare, direction to head?



## y0ud (24 June 2008)

Just stumbled across this forum and cant wait to sink my teeth into it.

 I have recently opened a business which leaves me a lot of downtime in front of a computer screen with a lonely internet connection. I have always been interested in trading, but have only recently kick myself into gear and begun reading a few books thinking about bigger investments. After browsing and running into a few areas of trading I'm no so familiar with, i have been left with a few questions. I have a base knowledge of most areas of trading, but would like to know which area would most suit my needs.

Gaining stability from the business is the first priority as it is the location of most of my capital haha. Second highest priority would be figuring out which area of trading i will enjoy and be most successful in. I plan to devote as much time investing my money as i do earning it. Thirdly, i would like a house asap.

-I'm young and can afford (and have the desire) to take high risks
-Plan to devote a high percentage of my income towards the investments
-I'm well disciplined and know where to leave parts of my brain
-Will be able to focus 8+ hours per day on these investments
-Always enjoyed "the rush of the marketplace"

any help/direction will be appreciated!

thanks and i look forward to trawling through this forum!


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## wayneL (24 June 2008)

y0ud said:


> Just stumbled across this forum and cant wait to sink my teeth into it.
> 
> I have recently opened a business which leaves me a lot of downtime in front of a computer screen with a lonely internet connection. I have always been interested in trading, but have only recently kick myself into gear and begun reading a few books thinking about bigger investments. After browsing and running into a few areas of trading I'm no so familiar with, i have been left with a few questions. I have a base knowledge of most areas of trading, but would like to know which area would most suit my needs.
> 
> ...




Are you attracted to fundamental, or technical analysis? 

Do you want to 'trade' or 'invest'?

What time frame are you looking at... minutes? days? months? years?

This is the information we need to confuse you properly.


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## Sakk (24 June 2008)

wayneL said:


> This is the information we need to confuse you properly.




I like it. 

I would add that you should read several trading books, get an understanding of the different styles and see which one you gravitate towards.


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

3 views, 2 replies. i like.


A have a 6 year lease at the moment, which comes with a slight chance we may have to relocate. I would like to spend the next few months researching trading whilst i get the business running smoothly. I want a few safe investments along the way (money for a house aside), but basically want to spend the 6 years learning the ropes and throwing some money around.


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## tech/a (24 June 2008)

> I have recently opened a business which leaves me a lot of downtime in front of a computer screen with a lonely internet connection.




No offence--but

Personally Id be using that time to grow my new business.
If youve got so much down time your not doing enough to grow your business.

Trading can be addictive and expensive both in terms of time and money.
80/20 rule.
Spend 80% of your time in your business and only 20% on trading (and that 20% not in business hrs!).

When you have so much business that your staff looks after it and you can release time for yourself to investigate pet projects---then you'll be in the position to devote time---more so than money!


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## Trembling Hand (24 June 2008)

tech/a said:


> Personally Id be using that time to grow my new business.
> If youve got so much down time your not doing enough to grow your business.




I agree 100%. Learning to trade/invest is a waste of time if you are running a business. You will be robbing from your business's time and resource's to lose money in trading. 

Concentrate on your business and make trading a hobby if you have to. And like all hobbies they cost money. You would be mad to let that distract from income generating especially in a new biz. After a couple of years you may wish to swap that around and have trading as your main income source but don't do that with anything but a very successful established biz.


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## kenny (24 June 2008)

Hi y0ud,

What we are all actually saying is "Welcome to ASF! Hope you enjoy your stay."

Please don't let the the allures of trading distract you from building your business. The early stages are the most vulnerable and yet the most open to devoted attention. Like a relationship. 

Cheers,

Kenny


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## Timmy (24 June 2008)

Some divergent views, as you have pointed out y0ud.  Some pretty good traders advise to spend the time on your business.  Probably good advice, but ... some thoughts (not necessarily coherent) and questions for you to answer, only to yourself, don't have to share the answers.

What is the purpose of the business (sounds like a dumb question but not everyone is in business to maximise profits)?  If the purpose is profit maximising, how much do you think you will make? (Again, this is for you to answer to yourself).  Can you make more money by trading?  (You wont even know this without going through the hard yards of learning heaps and giving it a go, so something to think about rather than answer definitively).

You say you have started a new business, so you are probably better off taking the 'spend the time on your business' advice, so maybe my ideas are not helpful, but maybe they will become useful.  Trading can be a business too.  Difficult business and I think you have to be passionate about it be a consistent success at it.  If you have that passion, don't let it fade.

ps.  If you do decide to pursue trading as a business would be a great idea to study the posts on ASF of wayneL, tech/a and Trembling Hand.


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## white_goodman (24 June 2008)

wayneL said:


> Are you attracted to fundamental, or technical analysis?
> 
> Do you want to 'trade' or 'invest'?
> 
> ...




what is more commonly used tech anlaysis or fundie, should you use a combo of both?

do people that use tech anlaysis pay any attention to market announcements or financial projections or purely price and volume?


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

thanks for all the responses! Quickest replying forum i have ever been a part of.

Without saying to much, the business is like running a storage facility. it will require me to open and close doors. Zero staff, Very low maintenance. I am aware of how much time i will have to spend on growth and maximizing profits and that is why i am here on this forum, asking the questions about trading i am asking.

That said, I do not know what level of day trading i am interested in, IF AT ALL. I don't know enough about it yet, which is why i am here hoping to be pointed in the right direction. I like the basic fundamentals of the highs and lows of day trading and would love to be involved. But to what degree (if at all) is where i need help.  

Concerns for my business aside, back to the questions at hand.

The way I'm looking at day trading, at what ever level it may be, is buying and selling on a very regular basis. Requiring strategies, research and discipline. Hopefully adding a bit of extra income to my life on a daily basis.


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## prawn_86 (24 June 2008)

Hi Y0ud, welcome to ASF.

For some starting reading I suggest these links in order (top to bottom):

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9904

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20 (search through this sub forum, its gold)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1345

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10405

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8896

That should keep you going for a while. Also learn to use the advanced search function. It saves a heap of time and questions.

cheers

Prawn


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## tech/a (24 June 2008)

> Quickest replying forum i have ever been a part of.




We all have too much time on our hands and should be growing our business.


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## SGB (24 June 2008)

Hi Y,

If I could throw something in also that has not been mentioned.

Its important to understand that trading is work, ongoing work that never stops. 
Its not gambling, wishing or hoping something may happen. Its actual work, whether you decide to incorporate it fulltime, a hobby, or a second income.

SGB


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## Trembling Hand (24 June 2008)

y0ud said:


> Concerns for my business aside, back to the questions at hand.
> 
> The way I'm looking at day trading, at what ever level it may be, is buying and selling on a very regular basis. Requiring strategies, research and discipline. Hopefully adding a bit of extra income to my life on a daily basis.




Good I hope you enjoy the years ahead that it takes to become profitable. In the mean time two things,

1. Your goal should be to learn correct skills to trade. Therefore forget about making money especially "extra income to my life on a daily basis". If you are talking about daytrading that will require at least 6 months on a sim probably more then about a year building execution skills and comfort with swinging some volume. As 95% of punters ignore this,

2. Make sure you don't lose more than a few % of your capital in the first  year. Do this by starting out extremely small.

As these will probably be ignored welcome to the best zero sum game in town.


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

fantastic forum haha, seriously, hats off to you all.


i am not looking to me a trade/invest for the next 12 months at the VERY least. I plan to research, read and practice as much as i can before i put a REAL cent into anything. Basically i want some opinions on what is most suited to my situation. Im looking to devote a lot of time to trading. I will budget to take big risks and would like to know which area of trading is the most volatile, or exciting even. cfd vs forex etc etc. i would be happy to put forward anywhere upwards of 30 hours a week to trading and learning the ropes. I also am well disciplined and will never get emotion in the way.

so from the view of someone in the know, which area of trading would suit my ways of thinking best (This is pre me reading into all areas to discover this for my self) ?


thanks so much for the links and advice.


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## prawn_86 (24 June 2008)

Sounds to me that if your after volatility and excitment rather than profits you should just head off to the casino 

Seriously though, its just a matter of you finding a style and platform that suits you. We cant do that for you


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## tech/a (24 June 2008)

*As these will probably be ignored*

Which leads me to a couple of my favorite quotes.

_Many receive advice, few profit by it._ 
Followed with
_A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice_

All the best.


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## Timmy (24 June 2008)

Hey y0ud, the business,  self-storage type thing?  Where is it located?  What's it called?  (Minor plug should be OK for someone who has started such an interesting thread!).


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## Trembling Hand (24 June 2008)

tech/a said:


> *As these will probably be ignored*




Where have I heard that before. :horse:


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Sounds to me that if your after volatility and excitment rather than profits you should just head off to the casino
> 
> Seriously though, its just a matter of you finding a style and platform that suits you. We cant do that for you




haha, it was on the cards, don't you worry.

spark has turned to flame



brb, finding style and platform



I am running a series of rehearsal studios, recording studios and music schools/courses called Aesthetic Studios.


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## awg (24 June 2008)

y0ud said:


> fantastic forum haha, seriously, hats off to you all.
> 
> 
> I also am well disciplined and will never get emotion in the way.




 I would'nt be too sure about the emotion.

As a new trader, am finding this part as hard as any other.

Was feeling completely gutted after Friday, got stopped out of nearly all my previously profitable positions AND picked a loser in a 2 horse race..my day trade stopped out, the alternative up 54%!

My hard built profits wiped down to almost nothing. Was'nt as though the market was really bad either, but my stocks got hammered, (then closed above my stops)


In respect of trading, there is so much info on this forum, online and in bookshops, is hard to digest. Will take months to get a handle, also 3 steps forward and 2 back sometimes

If you are serious, you will probably want some trade evaluation software such as Tradesim, so you can evaluate your intended methods.

I have a similar situation , in that I am involved in a business, but my activity is largely passive, so that I have time.

I will say that day-trading or very short term requires ABSOLUTE 100% concentration ( in my very limited experience ). ANY distraction whatsoever
can and probably will cost you. You are glued to the screen, and you must maintain your focus and concentration.

Everybody must start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.   

tony


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

i have had a lot of hurdles with person/money management issues involved with getting this business up and running. Received some really valuable information about leaving emotion at the door, and has proved a pivotal step. i hope to apply it to trading and will no doubt be another hurdle in this instance.


I'm inclined to think that i will only be treating day trading as a hobby (a big hobby at that, taking up many hours of the day). i will only be putting money in that i will be willing to loose and in no way relying on money made/lost in day trading.


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## Trembling Hand (24 June 2008)

y0ud said:


> Received some really valuable information about leaving emotion at the door, and has proved a pivotal step. i hope to apply it to trading and will no doubt be another hurdle in this instance.




The old emotion gem 

Can anyone out there site some evidence that emotion is the diff between winning and losing??

Its simply skill that is needed. Any emotions that are adverse are coming from lack of SKILL causing distress and irrationality. just because you are non-emotion doesn't stop you from sitting at your computer each day and giving away your capital. In fact I would say emotions are the only thing that does help you and motivate you.


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## SGB (24 June 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> The old emotion gem
> 
> Can anyone out there site some evidence that emotion is the diff between winning and losing??
> 
> Its simply skill that is needed. Any emotions that are adverse are coming from lack of SKILL causing distress and irrationality. just because you are non-emotion doesn't stop you from sitting at your computer each day and giving away your capital. In fact I would say emotions are the only thing that does help you and motivate you.




I hear what your saying TH

The problem with the word emotion is it is such a generalised word used in society today to explain a host of emotions.

But the real problem is; not taken any responsibility for that emotion and just calling it an emotional decision or reaction.
For example it’s a lot easier to say that I was emotional in that trade instead of the real cause, **** I was just getting plain *greedy* to not set my stoploss. Or, I sold out to soon because I was *scared* I would loose my profit. Or I was *fearful* to hit the mouse button because I didn’t have confidence in my decision. 

Yes it is skill, but skill brings confidence which makes us *Happy.* 

SGB


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## y0ud (24 June 2008)

its a line to be drawn


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## MRC & Co (24 June 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Its simply skill that is needed. Any emotions that are adverse are coming from lack of SKILL causing distress and irrationality.




I sometimes make emotional trades and nearly everytime I do, I loose $$$ 

Despite having a robust trading methodology which has yielded positive results over hundreds of trades.  

Sometimes I get over excited and take rediculous set-ups!  Afterwards I am so pizzed, no idea why I took them in the first place, except for a sudden rush!  Nearly ALWAYS loose when I make emotional trades and have made quiet a few over the past couple years.  

I think that must be a bit of a gambling streak!  Never knew I had it in me until I started trading!  Slowly making fewer and fewer emotional trades, but occassionally it still comes over me!  So frustrating because it wipes out some of the gains I made that month!  

Trades this month, up nearly 3k, emotional trades this month, down 600!  Not a happy camper considering I need to live off these profits for the time being!


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## Trembling Hand (24 June 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Sometimes I get over excited and take rediculous set-ups!  Afterwards I am so pizzed, no idea why I took them in the first place, except for a sudden rush!  Nearly ALWAYS loose when I make emotional trades and have made quiet a few over the past couple years.




You may wish to put these in the "emotional trades bin" and work on being less emotional or control the RUSH. Joining the growing industry of trading Psychology. But go to a good Psychologist, Psychiatrist or Counselor about an emotional problem and mostly they will treat the cause of the emotion not the emotion. 

Or put it this way. Is the only thing that you have improved on since you started trading as a newbie is being less emotional?? Has that been the main/only improvement? Or has it been that you have developed trading skills so you are not sitting around taking distressful trades?


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## Sakk (24 June 2008)

Trading should be just like a manufacturing production line.

See the setup, place the trade, manage the trade.  Wait for next setup and repeat.  However we're not robots.

Ed Seykota says something on the lines of "Acknowledge your emotions whilst trading. Feel them and let them pass. Stick to the system"

You need to trade without responding to your hopes, fears, expectations and other emotions.  Operate your system invisibly, without seeing yourself.


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## y0ud (25 June 2008)

take the red pill?


i think a formula/strategy can be applied to most money concerns to free it from swaying emotions. should be risk, not fear.


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## Trembling Hand (25 June 2008)

y0ud said:


> take the red pill?


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## MRC & Co (25 June 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> You may wish to put these in the "emotional trades bin"
> 
> Or put it this way. Is the only thing that you have improved on since you started trading as a newbie is being less emotional??




Yes, they are going to the bin!  I also find I generally take more emotional trades on intraday futures, probably due to the fact I know I can set a tight stop but can make a lot more if it does go my way.  Just greed getting the better of me!  I have just cut out watching futures constantly, only setting pre-determined parameters and trading them just like equities but on intraday timeframes.  

No, definately have improved in many other aspects also, far less risk being taken now (hedging along with tighter stops and smaller position sizing) with even greater gains, not to mention, consistency!


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## y0ud (25 June 2008)

slightly off topic, but has anyone seen equilibrium? i wonder how they would go on asx


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