# Claiming travel as a tax deduction



## waz (2 October 2009)

Not long ago I was talking to a high school geography teacher who told me they claim all their overseas holidays as a tax deduction. Travel agents do the same thing. We all know its a massive rort that they and other people in certain occupations get away with. Why? Because they can. So why not the rest of us.

So Im thinking of going overseas for a while and Im wondering what I can do to claim it as a tax deduction. Does anyone know what occupations can claim this?
What are the rules around it?

I was thinking the easiest thing I could do is buy an investment property for say $5, then spend $5,000 on a trip to inspect it once a year to find a tennent

Another idea is for me to do a professional course which is related to my job function. Then claim the cost of my course and the associated travel to complete it. I could just find a cheap $500 course, then spend another $5,000 on the associated travel 

Any other ideas? Im a stong believer in tax 'minimisation', its something that we should all be doing. If some people get to do it, then why not me.


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## Soft Dough (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> Not long ago I was talking to a high school geography teacher who told me they claim all their overseas holidays as a tax deduction. Travel agents do the same thing. We all know its a massive rort that they and other people in certain occupations get away with. Why? Because they can. So why not the rest of us.
> 
> So Im thinking of going overseas for a while and Im wondering what I can do to claim it as a tax deduction. Does anyone know what occupations can claim this?
> What are the rules around it?
> ...




While people are at it, are spouses accompanying me on my "conference" tax deductable too?

I mean the prime minister's wife gets paid to go with the prime minister by the taxpayer, why should the masses be treated differently?

PS LOVE the investment property one!


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## prawn_86 (2 October 2009)

Travel agents *cannot* claim their holidays as a tax deduction, My partner is a travel agent and we looked into this, there is even a specific section on the ATO sight.

If their entire trip has been sponsored as such or is for a specific work related product then they can claim it, but they cant claim their personal holidays. If they travel somewhere for a day conference, they can claim the costs of that day, but none others if they stay longer. So your example of $5k worth of travel for a course would not work unless it was just for the duration of that course, and you were travelling 1st class, 5 star hotels etc (of course you can go and do things after the classes at night).

Of course you can simply say it was for work purposes, but then that is tax evasion etc, which is an issue for a different thread.


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## springhill (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> Not long ago I was talking to a high school geography teacher who told me they claim all their overseas holidays as a tax deduction. Travel agents do the same thing. We all know its a massive rort that they and other people in certain occupations get away with. Why? Because they can. So why not the rest of us.
> 
> So Im thinking of going overseas for a while and Im wondering what I can do to claim it as a tax deduction. Does anyone know what occupations can claim this?
> What are the rules around it?
> ...




My understanding is you can claim a % of the 'property investment' holiday, but you can only legally claim the percentage of time you spent looking for a tenant/inspecting the property.
Example $5000 holiday, you spend 10% of the time on the property, you can claim $500.


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## waz (2 October 2009)

Thanks prawn_86, while we know that they 'should not'. We all know that many people are and getting away with it.

The school teachers I have spoken to who go on 'personal holidays' for their 6 week summer break are claiming it as a work related expense and have being getting away with it.

Plus we all know that most property investors who have interstate property are spending 95% of their property inspection time on personal activities. How convenient to organise your property inspection trip the same weekend that your freind interstate is getting married. 'Oh I was just int he neighbourhood and thought id pop in'.

Yup, I think your right springhill, although I doubt people would put down 10%. I will just tell the ATO that I like to count the bricks to make sure that all 76,485 are still there. That took up a good 95% of my time on my holiday.


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## prawn_86 (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> Thanks prawn_86, while we know that they 'should not'. We all know that many people are and getting away with it.
> 
> The school teachers I have spoken to who go on 'personal holidays' for their 6 week summer break are claiming it as a work related expense and have being getting away with it.
> 
> Plus we all know that most property investors who have interstate property are spending 95% of their property inspection time on personal activities. How convenient to organise your property inspection trip the same weekend that your freind interstate is getting married. 'Oh I was just int he neighbourhood and thought id pop in'.




I would suggest that all these things constitute tax evasion rather than minimisation, and if the ATO were to investigate they would have a very strong case to prosecute.

As springhill said you can claim the % time. Anything more than that is illegal and is definitely not condoned by ASF.


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## skc (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> So Im thinking of going overseas for a while and Im wondering what I can do to claim it as a tax deduction. Does anyone know what occupations can claim this?
> What are the rules around it?
> 
> I was thinking the easiest thing I could do is *buy an investment property for say $5*, then spend $5,000 on a trip to inspect it once a year to find a tennent
> ...




Where do you find investment property for $5?

One idea I know someone has is to invest in a small hotel / resort, and claim holiday accommodation expense as study tours.

Unsure about legality, how much you need to invest or how much you can claim etc. 

For example, investing $100 in a listed pub group and start claiming every trip to the pub as a tax deduction would likely not be viewed positively.


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## matty2.0 (2 October 2009)

tax office is not dumb. 

i did this a few years back for an investment conference and eventually ended up paying it back in tax when the ATO inspected my deductions.


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## springhill (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> Yup, I think your right springhill, although I doubt people would put down 10%. I will just tell the ATO that *I like to count the bricks to make sure that all 76,485 are still there*. That took up a good 95% of my time on my holiday.




 LMAO i'm into some weird **** but thats one kinky fetish you got there.... hmmmm now there's an idea for a new thread......


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## stocksontheblock (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> Not long ago I was talking to a high school geography teacher who told me they claim all their overseas holidays as a tax deduction. Travel agents do the same thing. We all know its a massive rort that they and other people in certain occupations get away with. Why? Because they can. So why not the rest of us.




You do know this is a wonderful urban myth, don’t you? In certain circumstances 'parts' of a holiday for an academic are tax deductible, yet not the 'whole' family holiday for a high school teacher. I think the teacher you were talking to was possibly pulling your leg.



> So Im thinking of going overseas for a while and Im wondering what I can do to claim it as a tax deduction. Does anyone know what occupations can claim this?




I know plenty of occupations that you can do this with, however, what occupation do you have? Or are you looking to make one up? In which case you can’t do it, as any 'travel' must be associated with what you do.

So, you can’t attend an IT conference in - say Las Vegas, while you are an accountant. They are not related. It should also be understood that any expenses you wish to claim must be for the duration only of the 'course' etc you are attending. So, if the course/conference was for 3 days then you can claim the airfare there and back and the hotel for the 3 days, yet if you were there 2 weeks the rest would not be a deduction. And it will only apply to you – not your family etc.



> What are the rules around it?




Depends on what you are looking to do. However, generally, the rules are tight(ish) as the ATO is awake to this sort of – let’s call it, fraudulent activity.



> I was thinking the easiest thing I could do is buy an investment property for say $5, then spend $5,000 on a trip to inspect it once a year to find a tennent




Once again, the expenses have to be reasonable, and can only be claimed for the time actually spent doing the job. So, if you use an agent to manage the property and they are finding new tenants you cannot claim a 2 week holiday to oversee it - sorry, yet that’s out of scope as you are paying an agent which is an expense, and hence deductable.

You can claim a night, possible 2 to inspect or talk to the agent etc. Yet you would have no hope of claiming more. People may, and I am sure some will tell you can, yet if you get audited you will be done.

P.S. If you find this $5 property let me know, I’ll take 20.



> Another idea is for me to do a professional course which is related to my job function. Then claim the cost of my course and the associated travel to complete it. I could just find a cheap $500 course, then spend another $5,000 on the associated travel




The course must be recognised!

However, remember, you have to spend this money to get it back, and if your income is not high enough to make such high deductions then you are no better off.


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## gooner (2 October 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Travel agents *cannot* claim their holidays as a tax deduction, My partner is a travel agent and we looked into this, there is even a specific section on the ATO sight.
> 
> If their entire trip has been sponsored as such or is for a specific work related product then they can claim it, but they cant claim their personal holidays. If they travel somewhere for a day conference, they can claim the costs of that day, but none others if they stay longer. So your example of $5k worth of travel for a course would not work unless it was just for the duration of that course, and you were travelling 1st class, 5 star hotels etc (of course you can go and do things after the classes at night).
> 
> Of course you can simply say it was for work purposes, but then that is tax evasion etc, which is an issue for a different thread.




prawn_86

I'm an accountant so can only claim very little - a bit of internet use, a bit of mobile use, my MBA when I did it, however usually lucky if I can claim more than a thousand dollars or so.

My wife was a travel consultant. She never claimed for holidays, but she did claim for overseas trips to inspect places to sell to customers and I accompanied her. My costs were out of my own pocket and not tax-deductible, but my wife's were fine. We even provided details to ATO once or twice when they requested. I think the line is a grey one for a few occupations such as travel consultants.

There was a case where an architect successfully claimed for travel costs for a 4-week European tour (i.e a holiday) looking at all the buildings.


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## waz (2 October 2009)

I was being sarcastic when I said buy a house for $5.

However here is a nice house which can be bought for less than $10,000
http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...ory-St_Lansing_MI_48912_1111419198?source=web

Its in Detroit, so I guess I will need about 6 months to find myself a tenant in this ghost town. (Again, I being sarcastic here to prove the point, Im not going to actually do it).

So it looks like we have 2 types of people here.
1. Those that think its impossible and an urban myth.
2. Those that think it is possible as long as you are reasonable and dont appear to be rorting the tax system by only claiming the correct portions of your travel.

'Reasonable' is in the eye of the beholder.

Stocksontheblock, my buddy took a week holiday to Hawaii with 4 of her best friends, plenty of alcohol was drunk and dancing was done. All part of academic research of course.

PS. I work in IT as a contractor, so I guess I can goto Las Vegas for that IT convention.


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## gooner (2 October 2009)

waz said:


> I was being sarcastic when I said buy a house for $5.
> 
> However here is a nice house which can be bought for less than $10,000
> http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...ory-St_Lansing_MI_48912_1111419198?source=web
> ...




Various professions advertise trips to Aspen, Niseko etc for conferences. There are lectures at 8 am with breakfast and 5pm with tea, but nothing during the day. Funny that.

All tax deductible, as I understand.


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## Julia (2 October 2009)

This thread reminds of one year when I claimed the cost of my dog on my tax return, including purchase price of the dog, all veterinary expenses and food etc for the year.

They accepted this on the basis that I was carrying in the course of my work Schedule One drugs and needed the dog to protect me and the drugs.


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## gooner (2 October 2009)

Julia said:


> This thread reminds of one year when I claimed the cost of my dog on my tax return, including purchase price of the dog, all veterinary expenses and food etc for the year.
> 
> They accepted this on the basis that I was carrying in the course of my work Schedule One drugs and needed the dog to protect me and the drugs.




Hmmm

I have two Siberian Huskies. Not much snow in Sydney, but if I lived in Thredbo, perhaps I could claim as part of my travel expenses


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## Julia (2 October 2009)

I tried it again the next year, but apparently the clerk who processed the return didn't have the same sensibilities about dogs and it was rejected.

Huskies are gorgeous.  How easy are they to train?  Any pics?
(Apologies for being off topic.)


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## matty2.0 (2 October 2009)

gooner said:


> Hmmm
> 
> I have two Siberian Huskies. Not much snow in Sydney, but if I lived in Thredbo, perhaps I could claim as part of my travel expenses




Fabregas is going to Barca ... according to rumors.


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## gooner (3 October 2009)

Very short replies to off-topicalities



Julia said:


> I tried it again the next year, but apparently the clerk who processed the return didn't have the same sensibilities about dogs and it was rejected.
> 
> Huskies are gorgeous.  How easy are they to train?  Any pics?
> (Apologies for being off topic.)




Huskies in general are very hard to train. Eldest one was a nightmare, although youngest one showed promise. Unfortunately, as the younger one got older, he learned stubborness from the eldest one

Tried to post photo but too big for ASF



matty2.0 said:


> Fabregas is going to Barca ... according to rumors.




That rumour is always around. Contract is to 2014 so at least we are guaranteed a good price if he does go.


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 October 2009)

I was able to claim my recent trip to Kazakhstan, the clubs, the soccer and all the grog.

So leave off the ATO.

They are a good bunch of people.

They have a very difficult job to do getting money off wage earners and are exposed to constant abuse.

I think they do excellent work.

I won't quote Kerry Packer on taxes and guvment.

Sorry I cant help meself, I will.

"Of course I am minimising my tax. And if anybody in this country doesn't minimise their tax, they want their heads read, because as a government, I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be donating extra!"

gg


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## Krusty the Klown (3 October 2009)

waz said:


> it is possible as long as you are reasonable and dont appear to be rorting the tax system by only claiming the correct portions of your travel.




The crucial word here is "reasonable". The tax department must use this word when applying tax law the same way the word is used throughout the rest of our legal system.

So if you are husband and wife taxpayers earning $100,000 p.a. combined and spend $5,000 inspecting a rental property over 2 weeks, this would be deemed "unreasonable" as it is quite clear that you don't spend $130K p.a. on living expense. Reasonably you could claim 2 return airfares, one night's accomodation and any meals over the same time frame. Alcohol is not allowed as a deduction for any reason, as is any other entertainment expense.



> 'Reasonable' is in the eye of the beholder.




Not when it comes to law, including tax law, "reasonable" is in the eyes of our legal system.

Just because geography teachers say they successfully claim $5K holidays as an expense for the whole family just means they haven't been caught yet, it doesn't make it a legal precedent.

Sorry to burst your bubble guys.......

P.S. I would be curious GG, as to how you were able to claim grog as a deduction.


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## So_Cynical (3 October 2009)

Is traveling etc to an AGM deductible?


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## nunthewiser (3 October 2009)

So_Cynical said:


> Is traveling etc to an AGM deductible?




YES 

and also visits to head offices / operations and various other visits to listed companys general goings on 

is often a visitor to various agm,s etc BUT one has to watch the proportions one claims if staying for more than actual business 

even overseas 

Troy resources has operations in Brazil by the way


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## Largesse (3 October 2009)

would travel expenses incurred to attend an interview for a new job in another city be deductible?
(melb to syd)

what about expenses incurred from having to travel to that city to organise new housing as a result of getting that job?


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## refined silver (3 October 2009)

If you a small business owner, you could organise your next work training at the Whitsundays with sessions at 8:30am and 5pm.

Most medical conferences are overseas, people sign-in and then skip all the lectures, unless they are presenting one, and then skip the others. The ATO accept this. (Of course the ATO could try get video confirmation of lecture attendance, but then the docs could quickly produce a sick note )


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## wiseguy (3 October 2009)

what about claiming trading courses that run for 4 week(ends)?


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 October 2009)

Claim it all boys and girls , claim it all.

They can only knock it back.

Then say no speeka da English or start crying.

Crying always works.

Kerry never carried any cash, and never had receipts.

gg


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## surfingman (3 October 2009)

wiseguy said:


> what about claiming trading courses that run for 4 week(ends)?




Yep, If you have assessable income which is related to this deduction I would claim it.


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## So_Cynical (3 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> YES
> 
> and also visits to head offices / operations and various other visits to listed companys general goings on
> 
> ...




Troy has Casposo in Argentina too...and i own a few EVG shares as well and they have property's in the Dominican republic, Peru and Venezuela. :bandit:

LOL i could have 2 weeks touring 5 country's in central and south America and claim most of the costs. :cuckoo:


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## Gerkin (6 October 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Travel agents *cannot* claim their holidays as a tax deduction, My partner is a travel agent and we looked into this, there is even a specific section on the ATO sight.
> 
> If their entire trip has been sponsored as such or is for a specific work related product then they can claim it, but they cant claim their personal holidays. If they travel somewhere for a day conference, they can claim the costs of that day, but none others if they stay longer. So your example of $5k worth of travel for a course would not work unless it was just for the duration of that course, and you were travelling 1st class, 5 star hotels etc (of course you can go and do things after the classes at night).
> 
> Of course you can simply say it was for work purposes, but then that is tax evasion etc, which is an issue for a different thread.




I disagree with you Prawn. There is anexus between travel and selling travel, if you are rewarded by way of commission. Look at the following case.

►	Decision Impact Statement – [2008] AATA 896, Re Carlos Sanchez and FCT
The Tax Office has released a Decision Impact Statement on the AAT's October 2008 decision in [2008] AATA 896, Re Carlos Sanchez and FCT. 
The Tribunal found that overseas travel expenses incurred by the taxpayer (a travel sales consultant) were allowable deductions. The Tribunal said the applicant's calling as a travel sales consultant required degrees of knowledge and skill that would benefit from personal experience of the travel components he sold to his customers, and that the overseas travel in question had directly contributed to that knowledge and skill.
However, the Tribunal upheld the Commissioner's decision to deny deductions for "food and incidentals", as these claims could not be directly substantiated. 
In the Tax Office's view, the Tribunal's decision correctly applied established principles of deductibility. Its fact sheet, Travel agents - what travel expenses can I claim?, would be amended in accordance with the findings. 
The Decision Impact Statement is available here:
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?DocID=LIT/ICD/2007/3667/00001


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## prawn_86 (6 October 2009)

We simply got our info from here:
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/79470.htm

Where it states:


> travel expenses on a holiday are not deductible.




Obviously according to the case you cited this may change, but has not done so yet...


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## Gerkin (6 October 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> We simply got our info from here:
> http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/79470.htm
> 
> Where it states:
> ...




Thats only an ATO interpretation of the law, I have heard they are currently preparing a new interpretation on this.


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## Krusty the Klown (6 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> would travel expenses incurred to attend an interview for a new job in another city be deductible?
> (melb to syd)
> 
> what about expenses incurred from having to travel to that city to organise new housing as a result of getting that job?




No and no.


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## gooner (6 October 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> We simply got our info from here:
> http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/79470.htm
> 
> Where it states:
> ...




prawn_86

The key word is "holiday". If you go to to Europe on holiday as a travel agent, the costs are not tax-deductible. If you go to Europe on a fact finding mission to improve your knowledge of Europe as a place to sell as a travel agent, then the costs are deductible. Even though you may do exactly the same things whilst you are there on "holiday" and on a "fact finding mission".


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## waz (6 October 2009)

So as long as you take a paper and pen, go to a few museums, an AGM and bring home a map, you should be sweet.

Escondida here I come.

PS> I knew there was a reason why James Hardie has their AGM's in exotic locations. And I thought it was just to get out of asbestos obligations.

It aint that hard to turn a holiday into a fact finding mission.


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## So_Cynical (6 October 2009)

My mums going with Hubby (the sparky) to the US next year for a big do put on by Clipsal (i think) a few seminars etc mostly tax deductible.


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## wildkactus (6 October 2009)

guy's there is another way around this move os or stay geater then 183 days outside oz, go to a nice little tax free country then tax is no problem anymore.

we have a few right on our door step only a couple of hours flight away.

I made the move a couple of years back, now only come back to oz for the parents and a little business.

have friends that do the 6 months in oz and 6 months os, but for me I was going to do this then found the rest of the world.

happy deducting.


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## jono1887 (7 October 2009)

wildkactus said:


> guy's there is another way around this move os or stay geater then 183 days outside oz, go to a nice little tax free country then tax is no problem anymore.
> 
> we have a few right on our door step only a couple of hours flight away.
> 
> ...




hong kong is a tax free country??


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## Largesse (7 October 2009)

15% personal income tax rate in Honkers....

compared to our top MTR, it would feel like it was a tax free country.....


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## gooner (7 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> hong kong is a tax free country??




jono 1887

Used to live there. As I recall 15% flat tax on salary income and no tax on investment income. Not exactly tax free, but not far off being tax free. And as I recall, I used to get my work to package up my holiday expenses which made them effectively tax deductible (rent as well).


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## ChilliBlue (7 October 2009)

What is so wrong about paying tax?

No one wants to pay tax, but if we did not, then think of all the private/government consortiums that would make us pay for general every day things.


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## rock86 (7 October 2009)

wildkactus said:


> guy's there is another way around this move os or stay geater then 183 days outside oz, go to a nice little tax free country then tax is no problem anymore.
> 
> we have a few right on our door step only a couple of hours flight away.
> 
> ...




Wrong. The ATO has changed legislation for that this year. It requires you now to have proof that you will be living in that country for a period of (I think) 2 years and greater. Eg. the proof would be buying a house, rental agreement etc.

Alot of wealthy people that used to use the old tax legislation are now going to have some hefty tax bills


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## Grinder (7 October 2009)

wildkactus said:


> guy's there is another way around this move os or stay geater then 183 days outside oz, go to a nice little tax free country then tax is no problem anymore.




or you can set up an offshore trust in Oz then become a PR of Canada, all worldwide income cannot be taxed under immigration law by Canada for the first 5 years. After that you can choose to become a citizen and keep the trust, whereby all income generated from another country (the US) cannot be taxed


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## Largesse (7 October 2009)

ChilliBlue said:


> What is so wrong about paying tax?
> 
> No one wants to pay tax, but if we did not, then think of all the private/government consortiums that would make us pay for general every day things.





i think alot of peoples problem with paying tax is that they feel as if they are subsidizing a) stupidity b) laziness and c) the excesses of few, among other things.


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## Gerkin (7 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> 15% personal income tax rate in Honkers....
> 
> compared to our top MTR, it would feel like it was a tax free country.....




Look at the cost of living difference.

You need to be earning about 180K plus for it to be worthwhile.

I have looked at this oppurtunity before


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## Largesse (7 October 2009)

180k HKD isn't all that much.....


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## Gerkin (7 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> 180k HKD isn't all that much.....




When looking for jobs in HK, figures quoted for expats are always in AUD or USD.

I was referring to 180K AUD.

Rent for a sh*tty flat is abot 2K per month. You would need to be spending at least 4K pm on rent. Thats where I got my figures from when comparing it to Australia.


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## Largesse (7 October 2009)

AUS - 180k AUD gross = approx 120k net of basic income tax
HK - 180k AUD gross = approx 153k net of basic income tax

My rent is 400pw for a 1br in inner sydney, or 20800pa.
You say rent would be 4k pm in HK, so 48kpa

AUS After rent and tax = 99200
Hk After rent and tax = 105000

very primative comparison and not taking into consideration alot of things, but HK just edges on that comparison and probably is on par if assuming that other general costs of living (eating, clothing) are higher in HK... which I would disagree with from my short experience living there.


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## Gerkin (7 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> AUS - 180k AUD gross = approx 120k net of basic income tax
> HK - 180k AUD gross = approx 153k net of basic income tax
> 
> My rent is 400pw for a 1br in inner sydney, or 20800pa.
> ...




I agree with general living expenses. However throw in a few more holidays back to Aus each year, a few treks around Asia living the Expat life and youd probably be just under.

I


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

rock86 said:


> Wrong. The ATO has changed legislation for that this year. It requires you now to have proof that you will be living in that country for a period of (I think) 2 years and greater. Eg. the proof would be buying a house, rental agreement etc.
> 
> Alot of wealthy people that used to use the old tax legislation are now going to have some hefty tax bills




yes they have and I as well as most of the people I know who are doing it apply the abode test which means we have the os country as our abode. like we have rental apartments, phones, bank accounts etc.

the only way this works is you do have to make the move os.

Happy Trading.


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

Grinder said:


> or you can set up an offshore trust in Oz then become a PR of Canada, all worldwide income cannot be taxed under immigration law by Canada for the first 5 years. After that you can choose to become a citizen and keep the trust, whereby all income generated from another country (the US) cannot be taxed




yes thats another way, but canada is too cold for me.

Happy trading


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> hong kong is a tax free country??




Hong Kong is tax free if you do not conduct business there.

as their tax system is territorial based IE only what happens within their borders is taxable.

Happy Trading


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

ChilliBlue said:


> What is so wrong about paying tax?
> 
> No one wants to pay tax, but if we did not, then think of all the private/government consortiums that would make us pay for general every day things.




Nothing, Its the amount that you pay, IMHO you pay too much in OZ for not enough return.

Happy Trading


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

Gerkin said:


> Look at the cost of living difference.
> 
> You need to be earning about 180K plus for it to be worthwhile.
> 
> I have looked at this oppurtunity before




not so you can live in Hong Kong quite well if you don't live in the middle of it all
I used to live on the harbour in central (CBD) and paid about USD10K a month for an apartment.
now I live in house out in the new territoies for USD1500 a month, and the cost of food and daily supplies is about the same as OZ, its where you live in HK that makes it sooo expensive. eat and live local and its quite reasonable.
where I am in the new territoies there are heaps of Expats, so its quite interesting at times.

Happy Trading


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## Largesse (7 October 2009)

wildkactus said:


> not so you can live in Hong Kong quite well if you don't live in the middle of it all
> I used to live on the harbour in central (CBD) and paid about USD10K a month for an apartment.
> now I live in house out in the new territoies for USD1500 a month, and the cost of food and daily supplies is about the same as OZ, its where you live in HK that makes it sooo expensive. eat and live local and its quite reasonable.
> where I am in the new territoies there are heaps of Expats, so its quite interesting at times.
> ...




I heard the downside to living in the territories is that some of the places are practically gated communities, and everyone has their nose in each others sh.t. alot like you'd expect to see on that desperate housewives show.
and along with that you have a whole love of bankers/traders/financiers wives with too much time on their hands just looking to find trouble.

just what i heard anyway.
i've family that are expats there but live on old peak road


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## wildkactus (7 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> I heard the downside to living in the territories is that some of the places are practically gated communities, and everyone has their nose in each others sh.t. alot like you'd expect to see on that desperate housewives show.
> and along with that you have a whole love of bankers/traders/financiers wives with too much time on their hands just looking to find trouble.
> 
> just what i heard anyway.
> i've family that are expats there but live on old peak road




Yeah you do, you have to pick your place, I am north up near the border, the bankers and the like don't come this far up, some friends live on the outer islands and they have a great heap of space for the kids and no city types.
its a great place and a lot bigger then just the city, which a lot of people never see.
Happy trading


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## Julia (7 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> i think alot of peoples problem with paying tax is that they feel as if they are subsidizing a) stupidity b) laziness and c) the excesses of few, among other things.



That's quite true.  There's a pretty good case for less tax and more user pays imo but I suppose that's always going to be politically unappealing.  Plus those who use the most services usually contribute the least in revenue.


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## jono1887 (8 October 2009)

Julia said:


> That's quite true.  There's a pretty good case for less tax and more user pays imo but I suppose that's always going to be politically unappealing.  Plus those who use the most services usually contribute the least in revenue.




Precisely.. taxes should be minimal to provide general infrastructure, healthcare, education and defense. Everything else such as welfare payments should be abolished. The money is going to people who least deserve it IMO


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## gooner (8 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Precisely.. taxes should be minimal to provide general infrastructure, healthcare, education and defense. Everything else such as welfare payments should be abolished. The money is going to people who least deserve it IMO




Jono1887

Let's hope you never find yourself unemployed with a family to support and can't find a job. And let's hope that you get a high paying job to put money into super so that you have a decent pension, rather than a minimum wage job where you can not afford to save money for your retirement. Let's hope that you are not crippled for life next week by an industrial accident so that you can never work again.

Because if any of these do happen, you will be out on the street without a house begging for food, because the Government has abolished welfare payments.

Of course you may already be wealthy, so have a safety net and don't give a rats a**e about your fellow human beings.  Fortunately most Australians do give a rats a**e and would never vote in an extremist government that would abolish welfare payments


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## Largesse (8 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Precisely.. taxes should be minimal to provide general infrastructure, healthcare, education and defense. Everything else such as welfare payments should be abolished. The money is going to people who least deserve it IMO




Dumb post.
There is definitely a place for welfare in our society, particularly people with disabilities and the marginalised, however welfare in it's current form is a disgrace. 
Supporting the middle class is just ridiculous, and a system where I could qualify for Youth Allowance so I could sit on my ass while at Uni when my parents collectively earn well over $500k pa is absurd and while I will take anything I am 'entitled' to, it's a joke that I have access to it.

Cut out unjustified welfare payments, reform the unemployment criteria and add this to the already implemented gradual phase out of seniors pensions and we should be able to lop a solid 5%+ off all MTR's, possibly even more.

P.S. Now that i've posted that i'm going to go have a squizz at the current social services budget allocations and run the ruler over it, i'm bored enough here at work. I wonder if Wayno left any detail in it....

Edit: Gooner pipped me at the line


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## Julia (8 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Precisely.. taxes should be minimal to provide general infrastructure, healthcare, education and defense. Everything else such as welfare payments should be abolished. The money is going to people who least deserve it IMO



That's very harsh, jono.  I would hate to live in a country without a decent welfare system.  Gooner has made the points that I would have.

None of us know when we may need assistance.   And, in contrast to what you say above, there are many people who don't receive anything like the assistance they deserve, e.g. people with severe disabilities.

Some time, when you have a spare hour, take yourself to some of the grottiest, most disgusting caravan parks that exist in your town/city and think about how it would be to live in a place like that.  All it takes, jono, is for you to develop a mental illness and be unable to properly manage your life as a result.  Instead, you are pretty defenceless against every creep who will steal from the small welfare income you have, and otherwise abuse you.

You seem to imagine life is a business over which everyone is able to exert total control.  Just ain't so, sunshine.


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## jono1887 (8 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> Supporting the middle class is just ridiculous, and a system where I could qualify for Youth Allowance so I could sit on my ass while at Uni when my parents collectively earn well over $500k pa is absurd and while I will take anything I am 'entitled' to, it's a joke that I have access to it.
> 
> Cut out unjustified welfare payments, reform the unemployment criteria and add this to the already implemented gradual phase out of seniors pensions and we should be able to lop a solid 5%+ off all MTR's, possibly even more.




This is why the current system is so ridiculous.. half my friends that went to a private school with me last year managed to get onto Youth Allowance even though most of their parents are able to drive them to school in BMWs and Mercs... Yet I don't qualify because I have to many liquid assets 

The way the system is currently set up is pathetic and allows the people who don't deserve it to get our hard earned tax dollars. Also.. many of the people on lower incomes and gov't benefits waste our money on alcohol and cigarettes anyway. A lot of the time its their fault for not having savings by the time they retire. I could probably live of a 20k/yr income and still manage to save 5k a year. Over 40yrs working that would yield 200k if properly invested, I over that time.. probably 1M. People on low incomes can save if they wanted to, its just that they choose not to...


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## prawn_86 (8 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> People on low incomes can save if they wanted to, its just that they choose not to...




I thinks it more that they dont know how to, as it is never taught. How can we have a society where management of one of the most important factors in our life (money), is not taught even the slightest bit in schools? Not one national class/subject on budgeting, money management, debt etc

Off topic sorry


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## Gerkin (9 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> This is why the current system is so ridiculous.. half my friends that went to a private school with me last year managed to get onto Youth Allowance even though most of their parents are able to drive them to school in BMWs and Mercs... Yet I don't qualify because I have to many liquid assets
> 
> The way the system is currently set up is pathetic and allows the people who don't deserve it to get our hard earned tax dollars. Also.. many of the people on lower incomes and gov't benefits waste our money on alcohol and cigarettes anyway. A lot of the time its their fault for not having savings by the time they retire. I could probably live of a 20k/yr income and still manage to save 5k a year. Over 40yrs working that would yield 200k if properly invested, I over that time.. probably 1M. People on low incomes can save if they wanted to, its just that they choose not to...




Yes there are a few who can rort the system at that age, these guys usually make good accountants as they are able to find loop holes for clients - I have many friends who have done the whole youth allowance thing. I even was asked why I bothered working 2 days a week as an accountant whilst finishing my last year of uni, when i can get youth allowance.

Second point, I have seen family members and friends require the dole for various reasons in their lives, this was usually forced upon them through death of a husband, rudundancy. I hope you never require it.


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## Largesse (9 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> This is why the current system is so ridiculous.. half my friends that went to a private school with me last year managed to get onto Youth Allowance even though most of their parents are able to drive them to school in BMWs and Mercs... Yet I don't qualify because I have to many liquid assets
> 
> The way the system is currently set up is pathetic and allows the people who don't deserve it to get our hard earned tax dollars. Also.. many of the people on lower incomes and gov't benefits waste our money on alcohol and cigarettes anyway. A lot of the time its their fault for not having savings by the time they retire. I could probably live of a 20k/yr income and still manage to save 5k a year. Over 40yrs working that would yield 200k if properly invested, I over that time.. probably 1M. People on low incomes can save if they wanted to, its just that they choose not to...





Ok your follow up post just confirmed your idiot status.
There is absloutly NO WAY you could live off 20k a year and save 5k on that with out some form of PARENTAL OR GOVERNMENTAL SUPPORT.

15k pa gives you a grand total of $288 per week. That is before rent, before transport costs, before food, before electricity/water/gas/council rates, before clothing, before insurance, before a ****e load of other essentials (internet/telephone considered nearly essential in this day and age?)

What about raising a kid one day? Costs there as well. let alone the costs involved with trying to find someone who wants to share their life with you

But i guess if you want to go live like a hobbit in a stolen caraven on crown land out in the bush you could manage it. But living as a part of society, i challenge you to prove that its possible for an extended period of time.

Cost of living in Australia is HIGH, champ.

Dumb post 2.


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## waz (9 October 2009)

How did my thread on travel rorts get hijacked about general disgust on our unfair tax system????? 

Actually I think Jono1887's post is very valid. Another way to live of 20k a year is just go live in a cheap country, walk instead of use cars/public transport, grow your own food, etc. Yes it will become difficult if you have kids.
Although if you are on your own, 20k is plenty.

I lived in India at a beach resort and had everything I needed for just $200 a week. So thats only 10k a year. Ofcourse during that time, I didnt have to purchase an education, or incur any medical costs.

PS. Insurance, clothes, gas, internet, phone are not essentials to everyone.

Smart post Jono1887


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## Largesse (9 October 2009)

India is not Australia.

Living standards in Australia > Living standards in Australia.


Jono's post was clearly implying living in Australia as well.

Remains a dumb post.


P.S. In Australia, and living as part of society, yes they are.


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## Gerkin (9 October 2009)

Waz,

Yes you can live in India for that, but you wouldnt be getting benefits form the Aussie Govt


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## waz (9 October 2009)

And exactly what benefits is the Australian governement providing me.

If I never get sick, I never have to see a doctor or goto a hosipital. (I last used my medicare card in Feb 08)
If I live in an area with no crime, I never need the police
If I live in a peaceful country, I will never need a defence force
If I own no car, I never pay greenslip/registration/insurance
If I make my own clothes and I dont grow, I never need to buy them
If I have electricity, I dont need gas
If I have no friends, I dont need a phone
If I dont own a computer, I dont need internet

There is a guy who lives on the cliff near Bondi (he has a beautiful camp site set up), his quality of life is fantastic. Im sure he lives on less than 20k a year. 

Whats to say I need to live in Mcmansion, drive a car and be a consumer and have kids to be part of Australian society.


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## Largesse (9 October 2009)

Please point me to this magical place where there is no sickness, no crime, no threat of war, where cars grow on trees, where electricity is free and the appliances that use it are as well, where you will remain sane with out friends, and where you can remain an integrated part of society with out a computer.

Give up on this stupid argument


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## Julia (9 October 2009)

waz said:


> And exactly what benefits is the Australian governement providing me.
> 
> If I never get sick, I never have to see a doctor or goto a hosipital. (I last used my medicare card in Feb 08)
> If I live in an area with no crime, I never need the police
> ...




Waz, I get what you're saying, but simply living in a community implies acceptance of the need to support its weakest and most needy members.
So your Bondi bloke above - if he were to really be a demonstration of the principle you're describing - would probably need to live out in the bush, miles from any services.

Might start a separate thread on welfare as it's obviously a topic which provokes some fairly strong feelings.


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## jono1887 (10 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> Ok your follow up post just confirmed your idiot status.
> There is absloutly NO WAY you could live off 20k a year and save 5k on that with out some form of PARENTAL OR GOVERNMENTAL SUPPORT.
> 
> 15k pa gives you a grand total of $288 per week. That is before rent, before transport costs, before food, before electricity/water/gas/council rates, before clothing, before insurance, before a ****e load of other essentials (internet/telephone considered nearly essential in this day and age?)
> ...




$288 a week is plenty.. I live in a share house with other students for $160/week (incl rent, electricity, internet, water, insurance).
Food costs are $50-60/week and transport (weekly 2 zone bus ticket) $11.60.

Grand total of $231.60 a week... with $50 remaining for movies, entertainment ect ect...

*oh and phone bill is only $10/month... $2.5/week (I'm on 3 and so are all my friends and fam, so 500min free calls a month) 
and get clothes from the op-shop, you can get brand name clothes for under $15 :

Living on 15k a year on decent living standards is very easy. I have uni friends that live on less then me.. the can eat on only $30/week by pooling together and cooking larger meals which they share. Also, there are far cheaper rooms in brisbane for ~$100-120 with elec/net/water included. 

I'm neither living in a caravan park or like a hobbit, I have all the essentials required for decent standard of living all for under 15k a year.


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## jono1887 (10 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> India is not Australia.
> 
> Living standards in Australia > Living standards in Australia.
> 
> ...




My post was not a dumb post.. I admit that if you were to have a family it would be different. But as you can see from my previous post, living on your own.. you can easily get by with 15k a year with internet, electricity, water, rent, food and transport (if you are willing to with with bus/train/ferry)..


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## Julia (10 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> My post was not a dumb post.. I admit that if you were to have a family it would be different. But as you can see from my previous post, living on your own.. you can easily get by with 15k a year with internet, electricity, water, rent, food and transport (if you are willing to with with bus/train/ferry)..



You can only do this because you're sharing with other people.
Doubt you will want to do that when you grow up.


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## jono1887 (10 October 2009)

Julia said:


> You can only do this because you're sharing with other people.
> Doubt you will want to do that when you grow up.




Well my point was that it is possible to live with decent living standards with 15k per year. However, if you were to be with a partner and both of you had 15k/yr.. it would be quite easy to get by renting a 1BR apartment...


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## Largesse (10 October 2009)

sorry jono, still remains a dumb post.

you suggested you could live of 15kpa for 40 years so you could save 5k year to then retire on.

your above mentioned student living arrangement scenario is simply not feasible nor will it be even close to desirable for an extended period of time.


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## jono1887 (10 October 2009)

Largesse said:


> sorry jono, still remains a dumb post.
> 
> you suggested you could live of 15kpa for 40 years so you could save 5k year to then retire on.
> 
> your above mentioned student living arrangement scenario is simply not feasible nor will it be even close to desirable for an extended period of time.




I was referring to the bare minimum for living.. Anyone who is in a 20k a year job at the moment and is not able to climb up the job ladder in 40 years of work has some serious problems...


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## Largesse (10 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> I could probably live of a 20k/yr income and still manage to save 5k a year. Over 40yrs working that would yield 200k if properly invested






you made the statement.


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## nunthewiser (10 October 2009)

any chance of moving this discussion to the appropriate thread so i can get some info on what listed head offices/operations  are in london for next years notting hill carnival please


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