# Burma Cyclone Relief



## Agentm (6 May 2008)

time to open the pockets up and tip in..

this one is getting bigger by the hour, and each hour a life needs our help..

do what you can, and consider contributing in some way..

hearing deaths of 250,000  is considered here!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/05/2236143.htm


----------



## Julia (7 May 2008)

It would be good to see Burma's own military getting in and doing something about helping their population and cleaning up the chaos.  The government has still not agreed to allow aid organisations access to all the areas involved.
Last I heard they have refused aid from the USA.  
Good to know the military junta cares so deeply for its people.


----------



## numbercruncher (7 May 2008)

> "The United Nations is asking the Burmese government to open its doors. The Burmese government replies: 'Give us money, we'll distribute it'. We can't accept that," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner told parliament.




http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23658581-952,00.html


Erm wouldnt asking for Food, Medicine ,tents etc be more appropriate ?


----------



## Pronto (7 May 2008)

Like the Tsunami disaster, Australians will give generously to Myanmar. 

But I sometimes wonder how generous the recipients would be if the boot was ever on the other foot, and we needed help...


----------



## numbercruncher (7 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Like the Tsunami disaster, Australians will give generously to Myanmar.
> 
> But I sometimes wonder how generous the recipients would be if the boot was ever on the other foot, and we needed help...




Maybe they would offer 20 million heavily armed soldiers to assist with the cleanup ?


----------



## robert toms (7 May 2008)

Julia said:


> It would be good to see Burma's own military getting in and doing something about helping their population and cleaning up the chaos.  The government has still not agreed to allow aid organisations access to all the areas involved.
> Last I heard they have refused aid from the USA.
> Good to know the military junta cares so deeply for its people.




I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.
I believe it had to be accompanied by military personnel.
The mind boggles...kidnap a few Burmese officials...shunt them off to Guantanamo ....torture them to see how much oil,if any, Burma had...and then attack Burma....just being fanciful.
However the Burmese obviously do not trust the US...and you cannot blame them for that!


----------



## Superfly (7 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.
> I believe it had to be accompanied by military personnel.




There is a US carrier group within two days sailing of Myanmar, and if you want any aid to get to people in need you will need transport of the helicopters that the US Navy will provide...



> The mind boggles...kidnap a few Burmese officials...shunt them off to Guantanamo ....torture them to see how much oil,if any, Burma had...and then attack Burma....just being fanciful.
> However the Burmese obviously do not trust the US...and you cannot blame them for that!




Anti-Americanism shinning through again, even when the only real hope for thousands of soon to be sick from lack of clean drinking water survivors is the US Navy, thats right RT, US Navy help.... 

China is such a great friend of this Monk murdering regime, would think that they would be all over this, more than the limited help offered so far....maybe the regime is more afraid of the Chinese on their soil than western powers... how many Guantanamos do the Chinese have hidden away RT....


----------



## Superfly (7 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.




Good faith to who ?.. the kind locals of Burma who are in real trouble and President Bush is wanting to help....   or the murderous military regime..



> I believe it had to be accompanied by military personnel.




Really, who do you think is going to fly the helicopters, drop food aid and give medical treatment... not the teenage soldiers of the Burmise regime...



> The mind boggles...kidnap a few Burmese officials...shunt them off to Guantanamo ....torture them to see how much oil,if any, Burma had...and then attack Burma....just being fanciful.




Have you ever even been to Burma... its poor, real poor... try finding an ATM or a good hospital... this is another crime that China has its finger prints all over.



> However the Burmese obviously do not trust the US...and you cannot blame them for that!




You are talking about the regime in control of Burma (some thanks to China), not the average Burmise, who would love to be able to live like the US backed Thai's do next door.... 
These poeple have no time for your anti-Americanism RT, they would love to live in the US backed west.. why dont you ( RT ) go and live in a non-western country and see how much you hate the US then....


----------



## Julia (7 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.



Can you explain what strings are attached and how you know this?




> I believe it had to be accompanied by military personnel.



Well, of course.  Obviously can't depend on the Burmese military to unload the planes and distribute aid, not to mention flying the planes etc.
Heard an account on ABC Radio this evening where one load of aid which did get through was hampered by no forklift being available.  The entire load had to be moved shoulder to shoulder by individuals.  Whatever else you may say about the US military, they are highly organised.




> However the Burmese obviously do not trust the US...and you cannot blame them for that!



So they prefer to allow their people to die?


----------



## numbercruncher (7 May 2008)

Maybe if the USA stopped providing so much aid and help to the world (via taking on more debt), people might appreciate them more ? They pretty much provide as much food aid to the world each year as everyone else combined.


----------



## robert toms (8 May 2008)

Julia,I am a great listener to overseas radio services,so that I get a view other than the guff that we are fed here in Australia.I think that 'strings attached" info came from German news services,very early in the piece.I doubt whether you will here anything like that from Australian news services.
Let their people die ? What the state of play is in Burma we would have to know more than we get from Australian news services,
I feel  that in the collective SE Asian memories, is the lack of concern that the US showed for people in Laos,Cambodia  and Vietnam....I am sure that you can see  why US intentions,whether fair dinkum or not,are treated with suspicion.What is the real agenda?That is maybe what the Burmese are asking.
All of us are judged by our past actions.


----------



## Superfly (8 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> Julia,I am a great listener to overseas radio services,so that I get a view other than the guff that we are fed here in Australia.




That does not get you of the hook for the anti-American bull*hit that you tried to pedal..



> I think that 'strings attached" info came from German news services,very early in the piece.I doubt whether you will here anything like that from Australian news services.
> Let their people die ? What the state of play is in Burma we would have to know more than we get from Australian news services




Well I'm in SE Asia now, not far but far enough from were this is all being played out and it is as bad as what you hear, even the birds are trying to eat the food left waiting to be moved, dead bodies everywhere, hard to get food to people when everything is under water, or blocked by downed trees, also the military is mainly made up of a couple of tribes, who hate many other tribes and so help who they like....



> I feel  that in the collective SE Asian memories, is the lack of concern that the US showed for people in Laos,Cambodia  and Vietnam




More b/s...
Trying to widen your arguement about the US... well out of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma and Thailand which one has a better standard of living for the past 20 years... Thailand.. why.. because of the US... 



> ....I am sure that you can see  why US intentions,whether fair dinkum or not,are treated with suspicion.What is the real agenda?That is maybe what the Burmese are asking.
> All of us are judged by our past actions.




Ask the Burmese !!! will say again... the starving Burmese mother and her children are not concerned with your anti US agenda RT, they would love to have food & water just to live now... 

The government is nervous about ALL aid, not just the US as you are RT....


----------



## numbercruncher (8 May 2008)

Im wondering if RTs agenda is actually just Anti-Western ?

He claimed in the Anzac Day thread (of all places) that Aussie soldiers were running about skiting about how many Iraqis they had killed, citing a vanished newspaper article as evidence


----------



## tigerboi (8 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.
> I believe it had to be accompanied by military personnel.
> The mind boggles...kidnap a few Burmese officials...shunt them off to Guantanamo ....torture them to see how much oil,if any, Burma had...and then attack Burma....just being fanciful.
> However the Burmese obviously do not trust the US...and you cannot blame them for that!




Ah yep didnt take long for the anti USA stuff to start makes me wonder how many would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2...5th columnists at work everywhere...tb


----------



## roland (8 May 2008)

well, at 7PM I heard on the news the Burmese Govt decided to allow a US Military aid aircraft to come in, just now at 8:30PM they just announced in a news flash that the permission had been recinded.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 May 2008)

tigerboi said:


> Ah yep didnt take long for the anti USA stuff to start makes me wonder how many would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2...5th columnists at work everywhere...tb




were you ever in the army tb?


----------



## Julia (8 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> Julia,I am a great listener to overseas radio services,so that I get a view other than the guff that we are fed here in Australia.I think that 'strings attached" info came from German news services,very early in the piece.I doubt whether you will here anything like that from Australian news services.
> Let their people die ? What the state of play is in Burma we would have to know more than we get from Australian news services,
> I feel  that in the collective SE Asian memories, is the lack of concern that the US showed for people in Laos,Cambodia  and Vietnam....I am sure that you can see  why US intentions,whether fair dinkum or not,are treated with suspicion.What is the real agenda?That is maybe what the Burmese are asking.
> All of us are judged by our past actions.



And I suppose all the photographs and television pictures are manufactured, not the real thing, just some old stuff recycled to fulfil the propaganda machine from the evil West?

And Tim Costello et al from World Vision, and the doctors from Medicine San Frontieres (?sp?) are all also part of the great Western spin?

And the military junta in Burma is a caring, sharing government whose only mission in life is the welfare of its people?


----------



## Happy (9 May 2008)

I think that UN should have mandate to step in fast during such times of crisis, but sit on hands for years soft spine organisation will probably miss the human tragedy alltogether, not the first time.


----------



## Superfly (9 May 2008)

Aid plane landed in Burma... all supplies seized by the military when unloaded.. now enough food to feed thousands of people sits on the tarmac...


----------



## juw177 (9 May 2008)

Julia said:


> Can you explain what strings are attached and how you know this?




I can't really say exactly but I do know Burma gets a lot of crap from the west:
-unfair sanctions (does the UN ever talk about Israel as a rogue state?)
-downright biased news coverage where the government is seen to do no right

This sort of stuff does not happen unless there is an interest in that country. You just need to look at all the puppet governments all over the world. What do they get in return for funding rebel groups in other countries? It is the same thing as when they send in "humanitarian aid" to tell people how to run their own homeland.

I believe the people that go and help are doing out of the goodness of their hearts but the organisation itself involves a lot of foreign policy politics and PR (often to defame the other country). I am highly skeptical of any organisation that rides into a country on a white horse to tell them they are morally superior. Why don't we see stories about how humanitarian aid not being able to help the thounsands dying in Iraq from the American occupation? But there are gorilla funds in Africa to protect gorillas from poaching by displacing native tribes.

I am all for helping the Burmese. But I can understand why their government is acting this way towards foreigners.


----------



## numbercruncher (9 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> Aid plane landed in Burma... all supplies seized by the military when unloaded.. now enough food to feed thousands of people sits on the tarmac...




Shocking Behaviour ....



> Burma junta seizes UN aid shipments which would have fed 95,000






> News of the seizures comes amid growing fears that the death toll could even overtake Boxing Day Tsunami levels unless urgent action was taken to help those left homeless by Cyclone Nargis.
> 
> The warning, which comes as 17 Britons including expats and backpackers remained missing, said that as many 200,000 were already dead or dying.
> 
> ...




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/burmamyanmar/1941117/Myanmar-cyclone-Burma-junta-seizes-aid-shipments.html


Now someone will turn that around and say Evil Westerners feeding Burmese junta or something ?


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> > I can't really say exactly but I do know Burma gets a lot of crap from the west:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## doctorj (10 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> II believe the people that go and help are doing out of the goodness of their hearts but the organisation itself involves a lot of foreign policy politics and PR (often to defame the other country). I am highly skeptical of any organisation that rides into a country on a white horse



As long as that 'white horse' comes laden with food, water purifiers and shelter who cares?

The point is that there was an immense natural disaster and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are likely to be without shelter, clean drinking water and food. 

Why not sort this out first and then start politiking.

What's worse is the very people who are making these decisions to prevent aid from getting in and getting to where its needed are more than likely not in need of anything more serious than their next mojito.

More importantly, why aren't China pulling Burma into line?  Are they worried about losing their influence over a country that all but guarantees them limitless access to exploit the oil in the North?  And if they are worried that the spread of Western medicines and food will reduce their influence - why aren't they using their military base(s) in Burma to supply the aid themselves?



juw177 said:


> I am all for helping the Burmese. But I can understand why their government is acting this way towards foreigners.



You can understand why a military dictatorship is forcing scores of people to suffer, if not die?  Surely that brings 'cutting of your nose to spite your face' to a whole new level.


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

100's of aid workers wanting visa's to Burma.... and the Burma embassy in Bangkok closed up today for a public holiday !!! will not be open till monday..

Not that the visa's would be issued anyway.... local TV here showing scenes from so called hospitals in Burma.... terrible injuries, no real medical treatment.... outside by rivers dead bodies everywhere....people in shock...


----------



## juw177 (10 May 2008)

doctorj, I think you misinterpret my post. I was simply pointing out to Julia that humanitarian organisations are not always what they seem.

It has nothing to do with what is best for Burma. They need all the aid they can get.

I do however find the mass media spin questionable. They have always jumped on any chance to spin a negative story about the junta. Not to mention that these are not first hand reports since they are banned from Burma.

Burmese government has not rejected aid shipments. They simply said they will distribute them themselves. Supplies from all over the world have already been flown in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7389607.stm

There is also no evidence that Burma is rejecting ALL foreign aid workers. There are already aid workers on the ground and more visas are to be granted. It seems it is only the journalists that are getting rejected.

Again, before someone misinterprets the above, I am simply stating the facts. 


And finally, thanks for the entertaining post from the number 1 George Bush fan on ASF... Superfly.


----------



## numbercruncher (10 May 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by robert toms
> I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.
> 
> ...







> Originally Posted by juw177
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So we dont lose track of who we are talking to, it seems Robert Toms and juw77 are the one and the same ? Or were you just replying on Roberts behalf juw77 ?


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> doctorj, I think you misinterpret my post. I was simply pointing out to Julia that humanitarian organisations are not always what they seem.




You may try to tone it down now, but you are wrong

Not much of a relpy to my post either Juw.... again because you are wrong... you are pushing the Chinese line... and it is wrong....



> It has nothing to do with what is best for Burma. They need all the aid they can get.




Same attiude as China, China has pledged 5 million plus, but then says that Burma sovereignty must be up held....  sounds same as you are saying Juw.... hmmm 



> I do however find the mass media spin questionable. They have always jumped on any chance to spin a negative story about the junta.




Spoken like a true Chinese robot...



> Not to mention that these are not first hand reports since they are banned from Burma.




WRONG !!!!!  You are totally wrong here.... even Dan Rivers from CNN has been inside Burma.... 



> Burmese government has not rejected aid shipments. They simply said they will distribute them themselves. Supplies from all over the world have already been flown in.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7389607.stm




Nothing compared to what is waiting to be flown in, and where is most of that already flown in aid right now.... not where it is needed, due to the Burmise government that you are defending.... this government was shooting poeple a few months ago, and now you want to trust them... 



> There is also no evidence that Burma is rejecting ALL foreign aid workers. There are already aid workers on the ground and more visas are to be granted. It seems it is only the journalists that are getting rejected.
> 
> Again, before someone misinterprets the above, I am simply stating the facts.
> 
> ...




Facts are that WFP does not just drop and leave, in any country in the world aid must be distributed by the aid workers, or what you get is young men turning up taking all the aid and old ladies and children get nothing. 

Also are you saying that the Burmise military can get aid to people better than western help could...even if they had the equipment to deliver ( which they do not ), the military is tribal and will take care of some and not others...letting a few aid workers with only what they can carry on their back is not going help much....that is what is happening.... and again for you Juw...
Letting in a few aid workers that can only carry hand luggage is not going to help much... and then restricting their movements while inside the country...


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

Also the Burmise military spent a large amount of time chasing Dan Rivers from CNN down inside Burma, while doing nothing to aid the people in the area's which CNN was filming...

Juw... to say that their are no "first hand reports" is absolutely WRONG... 

....what you have been saying is a disgrace when one considers the misery that is going on in Burma right now...

This is not China Juw.... what time is it in downtown Beijing just now ?


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> were you ever in the army tb?




... considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20....what has this got to do with current events...


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> So we dont lose track of who we are talking to, it seems Robert Toms and juw77 are the one and the same ? Or were you just replying on Roberts behalf juw77 ?




.... dumb & dumber ....

Neither could care less about the common people of Burma.... it's just opportunism to bad mouth the west.....


----------



## juw177 (10 May 2008)

I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case. But that seems to have taken a back seat to bashing the Hezboliah coup (without mentioning that they enjoys majority support in Lebanon).

Hey Superfly, if you are in SE asia, what are you doing to help the situation? Or are you hanging out at the red light district? For someone so obnoxious about US superiority over asia, what are you doing there? I have been to Thailand and I am very familiar with the bald white guys from the bottom of the social ladder back home who go traveling there being all arrogant to the Thai locals. It is very similar to the way you write about asia.


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

tb]Ah yep didnt take long for the anti USA stuff to start makes me wonder how many would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2...5th columnists at work everywhere...tb[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=2020]were you ever in the army tb?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Superfly said:


> ...  considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20....what has this got to do with current events...




superfly,
tb says he questions if people who question US motives would have been prepared to fight in WWII “when we were being attacked” - (He chooses a legitimate call to arms I notice - which doesn’t apply to Iraq for instance.)

I simply asked had he been in the military.  At the time I posted it, I thought it was relevant – possibly you’re right – possibly it isn’t.   

Either was (whether he’s been in the military or not) I can’t see what right he has to question whether people who question US motives are right to do so, - - or question whether they would join up to defend Australia “if we were attacked”

Presumably you and he would prefer to swallow it all "hook line and sinker" - "all the way with LBJ" as we used to say in out ignorance back in the 60s.  



> considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20.



Agreed that Burma isn’t relevant to whether tb has been in the army or not. – then again army service is arguably relevant to whether he thinks that people who question US motives would join up to defend Australia. 

Back to that first post…
"would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2"
Did US put their hand up to defend England (and the "free world") in WWII?. (pre Pearl Harbour)

Did GW Bush ever put his hand up to defend the US?
or Clinton for that matter?
granted there was no legitimate call to arms in Vietnam, so the comparison is not perfect. 

me? was I in the military ? - yes.
Did I go to Vietnam? - no, but I helped bury several soldiers who came back 

PS you want to hear women cry SF - just go to a military funeral, and wait till there's an order for the firing party to "fire".  Sheesh.


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> superfly,
> tb says he questions if people who question US motives would have been prepared to fight in WWII “when we were being attacked” - (He chooses a legitimate call to arms I notice - which doesn’t apply to Iraq for instance.)
> 
> I simply asked had he been in the military.  At the time I posted it, I thought it was relevant – possibly you’re right – possibly it isn’t.
> ...




Hmmm... one thing the US did do is the lend/lease agreement pre PH...which enabled England to keep fighting... but understand what your getting at there, although I do not totally agree with you on that.


----------



## Superfly (10 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case. But that seems to have taken a back seat to bashing the Hezboliah coup (without mentioning that they enjoys majority support in Lebanon).
> 
> Hey Superfly, if you are in SE asia, what are you doing to help the situation? Or are you hanging out at the red light district? For someone so obnoxious about US superiority over asia, what are you doing there? I have been to Thailand and I am very familiar with the bald white guys from the bottom of the social ladder back home who go traveling there being all arrogant to the Thai locals. It is very similar to the way you write about asia.




What are you talking about "obnoxious to the US over Asia".... wrong again... very very wrong...

What I'am i doing here... I work out of here ( nough said this is the internet)...secondly if you know SE Asia so well, then I'm more than happy to meet you down at RCA or if your in Singas then St James or Clark Quay and you can see if I'm some bald old guy from the bottom of the social ladder who hangs out with you fish source breath male tourist Chinese Go-Go bar junkies who the only time you Chinese ever get a good looker is by paying up bigtime to all the bar girls... and the girls laugh at you behind your backs.."little men"..."easy money maak maak" !!!  

Anyway this is about Burma...not about me or you do... me or you are not straving having just lost half your family with a government who doesn't care about the situation, just about the governments own survival...


----------



## IFocus (10 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case.




The Junta is delaying aid supplies of that there is no question the reasons given are minor and irrelevant when considering the number of lives at stake.

Clearly we are talking about a military dictatorship that is committing deliberate genocide against its own people which is nothing new with military dictatorships generally. 

They are only ever about serving themselves and cronies never about serving the people.


----------



## Julia (10 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> A
> Juw... to say that their are no "first hand reports" is absolutely WRONG...




Yes, completely wrong.  I have heard several first hand reports on ABC Radio.


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

Well if the Yanks want to regain some kudos in "the region", they could try spending  50 or 100 times as much as they currently do in Laos to defuse UXO unexploded bombs left over from Vietnam days - I mean, what did the Laotians ever do to the US ?? 
Heck even 100 times more would still be 1/300 th of what they spend in Iraq.     

(You wonder what McCain would say to a proposal to increase expenditure 100 fold , - since he dropped a stack of them). 

http://www.boston.com/news/world/as...us_ups_aid_to_clear_unexploded_bombs_in_laos/



> US ups aid to clear unexploded bombs in Laos
> By Frederic J. Frommer, Associated Press  |  December 27, 2004
> 
> WASHINGTON -- Nearly 30 years after the end of the Vietnam War, the United States is increasing aid to help remove unexploded ordnance that continues to kill people in the former war zone, especially *in Laos*, *where 2 million tons of bombs were dropped.*
> ...




So allocation in 2005 was "$2.5 million for bomb removal in Laos, up from $1.4 million"



> Nearly a third of the bombs failed to explode, becoming "de facto antipersonnel mines," according to a Human Rights Watch report. The bombs have killed some 6,000 Laotians since the end of the fighting.
> 
> "Every time I go to Laos I meet fresh bomb victims who have lost an eye or a leg or two," said Jim Harris, a retired Wisconsin school principal who helps educate people about the experience of Laotian refugees in his state.
> 
> ...




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/


> One thing is certain about the Iraq war: It has cost a lot more than advertised. In fact, the tab grows by at least $200 million each and every day.




So let's get this straight - 
 the US is prepared to increase aid allocation to remove 40 year old unexploded US bombs to US2.5 mill.. (wow)
.......
*and meanwhile it is spending $200 mill per day in Iraq  (= 30,000 times the spending rate) *:eek3:

Or if you prefer, they spend as much every 18 minutes in Iraq as they spend per annum ($2.5mill) cleaning up the mess they left 30 years ago in Laos 



> Since the end of the Vietnam War, the millions of yellow cluster bombs that litter Laos have claimed more than three times as many dead as the World Trade Center attacks.
> 
> Thanghon is one of the “lucky” thousands who have survived. Sitting in a wheelchair, she talked through a translator in Vientiane, the backwater capital of a backwater country that lies curled like a sleeping cat along the Mekong River.
> 
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 May 2008)

Sometimes a people just go with a regime and no matter how much we in Australia try to understand, we fail to do so.

The Burmese, Koreans and Cambodians have a long history of this. The Germans from 1933 to 1945 behaved similarly. The Japanaese and Serbians have done the same in the past.

It seems fashionable today for people in the West to berate themselves or their government for a failure to "help" these people.

A good example now is the Iraq/Afghanistan war on terrorists.

The Burmese people have tolerated this regime and any unsupervised aid will go to bolster the regime.

I feel very sorry for the poor people as individuals and family groups, but not for the "Burmese People" as a nation. 

I normally donate to International Relief, but I'm not so sure on this one.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 May 2008)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080510/ap_on_re_as/myanmar_cyclone

Need I say more.

gg


----------



## Superfly (11 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> I mean, what did the Laotians ever do to the US ??




In 1967 Gen Westmoreland wanted a full scale invasion of Laos & Cambodia and increased bombing of the North... steps to win the war but Washington refused, and so a 500,000 strong army group remained penned inside South Vietnam taking terrible losses due in part to a jungle supply line inside Loas & Cambodia... Laos gave the NVA unrestricted access to move equipment within its borders, equipment that allowed fighting in the South... it was called the Ho Chi Minh trail and that is why, because of this supply line that Loas and Cambodia was so heavily bombed...



> (You wonder what McCain would say to a proposal to increase expenditure 100 fold , - since he dropped a stack of them).




20/20....... You mock President Bush for not having a military record, and then knock J McCain for having a military record....

which one is it.... 



> So allocation in 2005 was "$2.5 million for bomb removal in Laos, up from $1.4 million"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe this is for another thread 20/20.... this thread is about Burma and still you managed to start posting your anti-US ravings.......


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> 1. Laos gave the NVA unrestricted access to move equipment within its borders, ....  and that is why, because of this supply line that Loas and Cambodia was so heavily bombed...
> 
> 2. You mock President Bush for not having a military record, and then knock J McCain for having a military record....which one is it....
> 
> 3. this thread is about Burma and still you managed to start posting your anti-US ravings.......



1. yep - but I repeat Laos did nothing to US  - and were bombed mercilessly as a result.  - AND SFA HAS BEEN DONE to rid the place of UXO unexploded ordnance.!

2. Bush has been branded a ChickenHawke by thinking Americans.  McCain has gone out of his way to prevent any investigation into his treatment as a POW.  And he himself has admitted to second thoughts about what he was doing to the defenceless people below on whom he was dropping napalm etc when there was an accidental fire  - takes a real hero to drop napalm 

3. I didn't start the anti-US "ravings" - just pointing out some legitimate facts as to why the US wouldn't be welcomed with open arms thassall.  

 "Chickenhawk" by Roy Zimmerman

 "Saddam Shame" by Roy Zimmerman

"wringing our hands asking why do they hate us".....


----------



## juw177 (11 May 2008)

Speaking of US hypocrisy, Bush rejected French, Russian, Cuban and Venezuelan aid when hurricane Katrina happened. Many died as a result of the poor response by the white house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

And of the ones they did not formally reject, they only accepted 4.7%.



> When other countries offered the United States $854 million in cash and oil as foreign aid to help the areas devastated by Hurricane Katrina, they merely accepted 4.7% of the total aid offered, the rest went uncollected. There is no reason for not accepting the available resources, other than that aid is a political tool. The United States wanted to avoid the political influence aid has on the policies of the recipient nation."


----------



## IFocus (11 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> Speaking of US hypocrisy, Bush rejected French, Russian, Cuban and Venezuelan aid when hurricane Katrina happened. Many died as a result of the poor response by the white house.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
> ...




Just a slight difference between the infrastructure and capability to respond to a disaster the size affecting Burma. 

Your raising smoke screens supporting a Junta............Juntas are the ultimate example of power corrupts, total power corrupts totally.......... as the people of Burma are experiencing now.......


----------



## juw177 (11 May 2008)

IFocus said:


> Your raising smoke screens supporting a Junta............Juntas are the ultimate example of power corrupts, total power corrupts totally.......... as the people of Burma are experiencing now.......




I read the same mainstream news reports as you so you do not need to echo it.

Total power belongs to the US. Not the Junta. Who is imposing the sanctions that is causing the population to suffer? Who has interest in keeping the country from developing?
*
Burma is a resource rich country. They are also the second largest heroine producer in the world (behind Afghanastan which overtook Burma's number 1 spot after the American invasion). If history has taught us anything, unless the profits from the resources are going to the USA, the covert operations and propaganda against the government will not end.
*
I hope the victims receive the relief they desperately need but I will not for a moment believe the mainstream hype that their government is conspiring to kill their citizens.


----------



## wildkactus (11 May 2008)

In the local media here in HK it has been reported that some of the regional and top generals have been relabeling aid shipments (what little that has got throught) with their own names and making it look like the aid is coming as a gift from them.

I guess this is just more of their propaganda machine at work, making the uneducated believe that they are the best choice for their country and that they don't need the help from the rest of the world.

anyway we all know where this will end and it won't be good for the local people.


----------



## juw177 (12 May 2008)

wildkatus: I read that too but I continue to see through the hypocrisy. What about our advertising wasteland? When a corporation donates to a charity, they too will make sure everyone knows. And how much do western political parties spend on dirty advertising campaigns leading up to an election and who are funds them?

As long as the generals are getting the aid through I dont care.


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> I read the same mainstream news reports as you so you do not need to echo it.




Lost me?



juw177 said:


> Total power belongs to the US. Not the Junta. Who is imposing the sanctions that is causing the population to suffer?





Hmmm maybe you could read up on the history of Junta's I was referring to Junta's in general (excuse the pun)not just Burma. 
They are about total power being held by a small group of individuals and holding it / exercising it through violence on the population of their own country.
The US,China,Russia,Japan and most European countries have exercised violence against other countries often with the tacit support of their respective populations.



juw177 said:


> Who has interest in keeping the country from developing?




I think the Generals are the only ones who benefit, history is full of dictatorships and regressive living standards Burma is nothing new. 
But you choose to blame the US?



juw177 said:


> *
> Burma is a resource rich country. They are also the second largest heroine producer in the world (behind Afghanastan which overtook Burma's number 1 spot after the American invasion). If history has taught us anything, unless the profits from the resources are going to the USA, the covert operations and propaganda against the government will not end.
> *




Obviously Burma is not that resource rich other wise the US would have already invaded!




juw177 said:


> I hope the victims receive the relief they desperately need but I will not for a moment believe the mainstream hype that their government is conspiring to kill their citizens.




Seems that they just shoot the odd monk for disagreeing I know I know more western news bias.
As we cannot talk to anyone in Burma that holds a dissenting view (like San Suu Kyi) you completely perverse the concept of bias

juw177 its looks like you are a fervent supporter of the Junta and hater of the US at any cost be it human, so be it


----------



## juw177 (12 May 2008)

IFocus, I think you are the one that should read up on the history of Burma and the opium trade. You do not understand the extent of US foreign policy against the defenseless third world. The number deaths caused by their secret wars dwarfs anything from these so called "communist military dictatorships": funding of rebel groups, overthrowing of governments, terrorism, assassinations and sanctions. All to benefit a small group of elites. This information can easily be found on the internet, documentaries, etc.

Burma is yet another defenseless country on the list that could do nothing to harm the west. And we will keep hearing propaganda about Aung San Suu Kyi, the monks protest, and now the handling of the relief until a puppet government is installed.


----------



## juw177 (12 May 2008)

IFocus said:


> As we cannot talk to anyone in Burma that holds a dissenting view (like San Suu Kyi) you completely perverse the concept of bias




It is the exact opposite. The media's sole responsibility is to find dissidence.


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> IFocus, I think you are the one that should read up on the history of Burma and the opium trade. *You do not understand the extent of US foreign policy against the defenseless third world.* The number deaths caused by their secret wars dwarfs anything from these so called "communist military dictatorships": funding of rebel groups, overthrowing of governments, terrorism, assassinations and sanctions. All to benefit a small group of elites. This information can easily be found on the internet, documentaries, etc.




Oh but I do and 1st hand, was in central America when the US funded the Contra"s I supported the Sandinistas.

I was also in Chile when the US supported General Augusto Pinochet. I got to see what a Military dictatorship was like 1st hand. 

But what has this to do with the Burmese Junta stoping the UN, Oxam and the like distributing food / water  and the things required to quell the onset of disease.

In a word "nothing" their motives are solely about sustaining total power. 

Remember I have seen this 1st hand, not a news clip, not some ones opinion, not indoctrination but the reality of a Military Junta. 




juw177 said:


> *And we will keep hearing propaganda about Aung San Suu Kyi*, the monks protest, and now the handling of the relief until a puppet government is installed.




Detention since her party winning the popular vote, is that propaganda?........

BTW my own politics are some where left of the communist party.......that represents the people not oppress and kill them for sake of power.


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> It is the exact opposite. The media's sole responsibility is to find dissidence.




The media is a business to make profits for its owners if you are a trader its fundamental to understand this very point.

Once this is grasped then you can start to understand the basis and direction of bias.

Of course state run media has a different agenda the two are not to be confused


----------



## juw177 (12 May 2008)

IFocus said:


> But what has this to do with the Burmese Junta stoping the UN, Oxam and the like distributing food / water  and the things required to quell the onset of disease.




I appreciate that you have seen more than me.

And to answer your question, it is not so simple. The countries they represent are enemies of the Burmese government. Also, they are not rejecting the aid supplies, maybe they think they can adequately distribute the aid themselves. Last I read, they have been letting in aid. Plus, no country, even in a crisis will open its doors and invite anyone to enter.

You may well be right and that the government does not care that a few more thousands die. I am just not so quick to judge.


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2008)

Indonesia pretty much did this in Banda Ache in the middle of a civil war much to the dismay of its own military.
But this was a government that acted in the best interests of the people not in the interests of maintaining power.

Australia committed $1Billion and you can bet there were strings attached as the Australian government would have wanted influence in Indonesian affairs. 

Note the Indonesians still quite happily tell the Australian government to bugger off


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> I appreciate that you have seen more than me.




A blind man often sees more

In the market its our thinking that counts


----------



## juw177 (12 May 2008)

Another difference is that the Indonesian government co-operates with the US.

Yes, I would also expect people who trade stock to be a bit skeptical of media spins. Separating the facts from the hype is important in this game.


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 May 2008)

Getting back on track...

An interesting, but controversial idea from Capt. Hornblower's team - forced regime change in Burma!

If any regime around the world currently deserved the full weight of the UN Military on it's heads, it's those pr***'s! They are only going to knowingly kill 10's of thousands more of their own people anyway through Genocidal Neglect. Why not invade the scum and free the people once and for all?

Generally, I'm anti-war unless there is a VERY good reason to be involved. The JUNTA reason has festered for far too long... 

Ideas?



AJ


----------



## Superfly (17 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Getting back on track...
> 
> An interesting, but controversial idea from Capt. Hornblower's team - forced regime change in Burma!
> 
> ...




One word.. China...

China the other great murderous regime in the region, will ( same as North Korea, Vietnam ) not allow this Burmise regime to fall... why... because China does not want western powers on it's borders... this is another crime by China..


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> One word.. China...
> 
> China the other great murderous regime in the region, will ( same as North Korea, Vietnam ) not allow this Burmise regime to fall... why... because China does not want western powers on it's borders... this is another crime by China..




..who we support with massive exports of raw materials for their Ultimate Power Quest!

Funny. We worry about China's economy "becoming overheated" - then feed the flames ever higher! 


AJ


----------



## Superfly (21 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> > And we will keep hearing propaganda about Aung San Suu Kyi, the monks protest, and now the handling of the relief until a puppet government is installed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> One word.. China...
> 
> China the other great murderous regime in the region, will ( same as North Korea, Vietnam ) not allow this Burmise regime to fall... why... because China does not want western powers on it's borders... this is another crime by China..




Well without supporting either the Burmese or Chinese regimes, you can hardly blame China for this... not after noting the US' interference in it's own region and support of pro US tyrants. 

The obstruction in getting aid to it's people is no less revolting however.


----------



## juw177 (21 May 2008)

haha Superfly = CIA robot. Do you do anything here except blindly echo the Washington line?

The Junta may be treating their people like crap but you can bet that the people that are sponsoring the overthrow of the government are not doing it out of their own kind heart.

How can Brown be saying that it is a "man made humanitarian crisis" when he is supporting the muderous occupation of Iraq? Some people need to be educated on history and what the rallying calls for democracy and humanitarian aid in another country have resulted in.

If anyone is wondering why there is a US interest in Burma, this article discusses it:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ17Ae01.html


----------



## Superfly (26 May 2008)

juw177 said:


> > haha Superfly = CIA robot. Do you do anything here except blindly echo the Washington line?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Superfly (5 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> > I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Superfly (6 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> How can Brown be saying that it is a "man made humanitarian crisis" when he is supporting the muderous occupation of Iraq? Some people need to be educated on history and what the rallying calls for democracy and humanitarian aid in another country have resulted in.




Your watching way to much CCTV ....


----------

