# Depression



## krisbarry (26 September 2006)

Anyone suffered it?

I have!

Come on fess up, there must be at least 1000 members on this board that have suffered it over the past year.

(5000+ members on ASF and 1 in 5 people suffer with depression)


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## wayneL (26 September 2006)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> Anyone suffered it?
> 
> I have!
> 
> ...



 Do you mean the occasional depression that everybody gets from time to time, or clinical depression?

But oh yeah!!!!! Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Never saw a quack about it(bad move IMO, they just fill you with drugs). Instead, got into philosophy, confronted my shadow self, had a massive soul search, got to actually know myself.

Very painful and I was lucky to put myself on the right track for me! I am actually glad I went through it. But I feel for people who are going through it, it can be very rough.


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## nelly (26 September 2006)

Hi
I knew I was in trouble when I couldn't remember when I last ate anything, let alone do anything else. I hadn't picked up the mail in God knows how long, [my phone had been cut because I hadn't paid the bill] I didn't care about anything. I just knew I was deep into 'mis-er-rable' and had no reasonable explanation for it.
One of my friends whisked me off to the quack.
3 mths on anti-depressants helped a bit, [I paid the phone bill] but I also went off to some councelling.......nothing like self-help if you ask me.
What scared me was the total apathy I felt, I'm lots of things but apathetic and self-absorbed is not one of them.
Anyway since that time 5 years ago I have been prone to feelin' the 'slump' but I can self talk myself up again.   

I am still determined to be cheerful and happy, in whatever situation I may be; for I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances. 
Martha Washington (1732 - 1802)​
Cheerful


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## Sean K (26 September 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi
> I knew I was in trouble when I couldn't remember when I last ate anything, let alone do anything else. I hadn't picked up the mail in God knows how long, [my phone had been cut because I hadn't paid the bill] I didn't care about anything. I just knew I was deep into 'mis-er-rable' and had no reasonable explanation for it.
> One of my friends whisked me off to the quack.
> 3 mths on anti-depressants helped a bit, [I paid the phone bill] but I also went off to some councelling.......nothing like self-help if you ask me.
> ...





Well done Nelly! One of the hardest things is taking the punt on Zoloft, or whatever, and when you do, it changes your life. All it is is a shift in chemical imbalance, and then some talk too...Great stuff!


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## Judd (26 September 2006)

WayneL and nelly have summed it up pretty well.  I can relate to the comments.  There is a big difference between feeling anxious and being in the grip of the black dog.  Sadly, it is all lumped in under the term mental health so everyone seems to be depressed!

Apparently, being anxious is normal.  Standing on a road and a car comes at you.  You're anxious.  Normal.  Fight or Flight time.

It's when there is absolutely no reason for being anxious that the bugger really grabs you.  It's even too hard to bother about taking your own life.  Dangerous when they shine like a light bulb about to expire.  Mind made up, course of action is clear.

Been close.  Watchful now.


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## barney (26 September 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi
> I knew I was in trouble when I couldn't remember when I last ate anything, let alone do anything else. I hadn't picked up the mail in God knows how long, [my phone had been cut because I hadn't paid the bill] I didn't care about anything. I just knew I was deep into 'mis-er-rable' and had no reasonable explanation for it.
> One of my friends whisked me off to the quack.
> 3 mths on anti-depressants helped a bit, [I paid the phone bill] but I also went off to some councelling.......nothing like self-help if you ask me.
> ...





Hey guys, Now you are talkin' my language........I'm kinda not proud of it, but at the same time I'm no longer ashamed of it  ....I,ve been on anti-D's for over 2 years......actually just weaned myself off them in the last couple of weeks (maybe its the good vibes I get around here   Clinical depression is a common problem, nothing to be ashamed of (says my doctor).  I am actually a very positive person (towards others) but internally ,struggle with self satisfaction......so if you suffer,  you don't have to suffer alone (don't be afraid to talk  about it)......I am pretty lucky with family support etc. and I think that is important/fortunate.  Cheers, Barney


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## krisbarry (26 September 2006)

This thread will certainly be a hot little one, as much discussion takes place about the best treatments/cures/effects for clinal depression and releated disorders.

But lets also think about it from the trading perspective.

How many billions of dollars have be lost when people trade in depressed states of mind?

on the flipside...

How many billions of dollars have been won when people suffering with bi-polar take extreme risks when feeling elevated in manic episodes?

Then the medications that treat depression, any sufferer will tell you they numb your head, what effect does this have on your trading abilities?


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## wayneL (26 September 2006)

Just one point which could help certain people.

Booze!

Apparently can be a big factor in depression and it could help to give it a miss. FWIW


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## krisbarry (26 September 2006)

There is two sides to that story....

I hear 1 beer a day is good for depression (I think it is the barley that helps)

But yes you are right booze is a central nervous system depressant.

If I drink excessive, which is rare now-days I get very depressed for a few days afterwards.

...But I still think a casual drink now and then is very good for calming the nerves and relieving depression


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## barney (26 September 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Just one point which could help certain people.
> 
> Booze!
> 
> Apparently can be a big factor in depression and it could help to give it a miss. FWIW




Confession is good for the soul............ I know I drink too much nowdays, (did not drink at all virtually till 26 y.o........thats the year I got married   .........my wife just clobbered me......ouch!!............... Seriously a few beers is "good therapy" for me, but you are right Wayne, too much, or more to the point; too much for the wrong reasons is detrimental.........for me, its a fine line, but I am aware of it.............Barney.


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## Julia (26 September 2006)

I'm interested to know that anti depressants have in fact helped some members.
I'm often concerned about the increasing number of people being put on medication when quite possibly some counselling and behaviour modification therapy could work really well.  Two people I know have gone from moderately depressed to suicidal after starting on Zoloft.

Some years ago, "Depression" was usually classified into "Reactive" and "Endogenous", with a reactive depression being the 'normal' response we feel to e.g. loss, severe illness, relationship breakdown etc.  In other words, in these circumstances it would be unusual NOT to feel depressed and sad.
Such sadness usually gradually improves with the passage of time.

But 'endogenous depression' (now usually termed 'clinical depression') occurs without any apparent precipitating factor and was really well described by Nelly, with an overwhelming apathy being described by many people.
It seems that this sort of depression responds usually to anti depressants.

My concern comes from the fact that so many depressed people present to GP's who don't refer them on for psychiatric or psychological assessment and simply prescribe the "one size fits all" anti-depressant medication.
I'd just like to see more of an individual assessment carried out before the wholesale medicating of every depressed person.

Julia


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## noirua (26 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> I'm interested to know that anti depressants have in fact helped some members.
> I'm often concerned about the increasing number of people being put on medication when quite possibly some counselling and behaviour modification therapy could work really well.  Two people I know have gone from moderately depressed to suicidal after starting on Zoloft.
> 
> Some years ago, "Depression" was usually classified into "Reactive" and "Endogenous", with a reactive depression being the 'normal' response we feel to e.g. loss, severe illness, relationship breakdown etc.  In other words, in these circumstances it would be unusual NOT to feel depressed and sad.
> ...





Some people who suffer from depression have " Bipolar disease " and this is often not recognised in many parts of the world.  A rating is given, where a few experts are able to recognise it, and those with a rating above 80 come into the high risk category. Some famous actors and singers etc., suffer from the disease, or some call it a complaint, and it often makes them more capable at the time of their act and then later sends them into a dark depression.

The following link will take you to the website of a very sad case in Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK, that appeared to go unrecognised. If you tend to get upset about sad cases then DON'T click-on this link:  http://www.cowley.free-online.co.uk/Service.html


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## nelly (26 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> But 'endogenous depression' (now usually termed 'clinical depression') occurs without any apparent precipitating factor and was really well described by Nelly, with an overwhelming apathy being described by many people.
> It seems that this sort of depression responds usually to anti depressants
> Julia




Hey Julia, just a note...my quack did straight away want to put me on Prosaic or Zoloft but I refused. I really wanted to kick this thing in the head myself [I can be stubborn] I took a mild anti-depressant [cipramol/talehexol/celapram] and opted for a shrink, which was imo the best option for me. I do think too many people go for the 'quick fix' and that some quacks use that option for expediency sake. So my advise would be to do the research and find and stick to a quack who will spend the time getting to know you and don't be afraid to speak up when you don't understand fully what is being prescribed.

cheerful


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## nelly (26 September 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> but internally ,struggle with self satisfaction......so if you suffer,  you don't have to suffer alone (don't be afraid to talk  about it)......I am pretty lucky with family support etc. and I think that is important/fortunate.  Cheers, Barney




Hi ya Barney...
"A neurosis is a secret that you don't know you are keeping."
It's great u have a support system, I think that is the singular most important thing to have in life [but you have to utilise it] and.... give yourself a break every now and again.

Cheerful :band


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## It's Snake Pliskin (27 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> I'm interested to know that anti depressants have in fact helped some members.
> I'm often concerned about the increasing number of people being put on medication when quite possibly some counselling and behaviour modification therapy could work really well.  Two people I know have gone from moderately depressed to suicidal after starting on Zoloft.
> 
> Some years ago, "Depression" was usually classified into "Reactive" and "Endogenous", with a reactive depression being the 'normal' response we feel to e.g. loss, severe illness, relationship breakdown etc.  In other words, in these circumstances it would be unusual NOT to feel depressed and sad.
> ...




Julia I've done Zoloft before and it gave me temperatures and nervous type shakes. I started on another that kept me up all night, then settled on a third drug that was good. I ditched them all after about 2-3months. I needed this after nearly dying. (Not in La or NY by the way  )

Change your attitudes and approach to life and find things that challenge you - Barney you are doing it now, keep it up.


For the fools doing weed you are frying your brains big time and will damage your personality permanently!


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## nelly (27 September 2006)

Yep S.P. your so right, I know a few people who after bouts of heavy duty pot smokin' presented with drug induced schizophrenia of one form or the other. Now they all have that knee jerking thing happening, one digs things out of his arm or leg regularly looking for C.I.A. tracking devices.  
And guess what..... they all still smoke! :22_yikes: 

Cheerful


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## barney (27 September 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Yep S.P. your so right, I know a few people who after bouts of heavy duty pot smokin' presented with drug induced schizophrenia of one form or the other. Now they all have that knee jerking thing happening, one digs things out of his arm or leg regularly looking for C.I.A. tracking devices.
> And guess what..... they all still smoke! :22_yikes:
> 
> Cheerful




Hi Nelly/Snake/others,

RE: One of the bands I worked with in Sydney ("The Civilians") : The roadies used to have bongs for breakfast..............now theres a good start to the day  :kiffer:


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## wayneL (27 September 2006)

I was watching a program a few weeks ago (can't remember the show) and they were talking about manic depressives.

Apparently, if offered a magic pill that would make them normal (whatever that is) most said they would not take it. 

The feeling was that the manic times were so high, such a buzz, that it was worth going through the devastating lows of depression. 

Just thought that was interesting.


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## barney (27 September 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I was watching a program a view weeks ago (can't remeber the show) and they were talking about manic depressives.
> 
> Apparently, if offered a magic pill that would make them normal (whatever that is) most said they would not take it.
> 
> ...




Hey Wayne, Makes sense.  I guess we are all like that to a point.........things always seem a lot better when we've just gotten over a "bad spell" (like after my wife beats me up!  .......Highs and lows are normal so long as they don't get to extremes.


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## mrWoodo (27 September 2006)

For me, Cipramil probably my life, seriously! Zoloft for me was a definite no-no - made me 'zombie-like' and even more apathetic.

6 months of that woke me up enough to get out of a 2 year doldrum. Was very wierd first few weeks on it, the euphoria I would go through was bizarre esp after being on such a low for so long. Once I 'stabilized' things got back to normal - It's not an overnight process, but I think it's human instinct to get yourself back to a happy state.

Now I look back on it and shake my head at it all - There were a few days when I would stare at the ceiling and not have the nerve to even get out of bed. Anxiety / panic attacks couple times a day, etc. Putting up a brave face, being the happy socialite, etc but getting home and falling to bits.

You'd be suprised at how many people you know may have had depression one time or another. Some ppl you come across might not understand and think you're so 'weak' but unless they've been there, it's not something they could ever relate to.


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## Julia (27 September 2006)

This is a really interesting thread.

Nelly, your point about doctors and doing your own research is well made.
Some years ago I felt depressed and tearful, no energy, everything was a huge effort.  Went to Dr who said "change of country, lots of stress, etc etc - you need anti depressants".  Didn't make sense to me.  I was happy about the change and didn't feel stressed in any usual sense.  So I insisted on a check on the biochemistry - lo, it came back with a low thyroid reading.  A few weeks on the appropriate thyroxine replacement and I was fine!  
I just feel doctors, whether because of time constraints, or just lack of interest, are much too fast to pump out prescriptions for drugs.

Wayne, that comment from people with bipolar fascinates me too.  I have a friend who is bipolar and is fine when he takes his medication.  But after a while he says "I don't need this crap" and stops it.  Doesn't take long for a manic phase to emerge, frenetic activity, can't stop talking, does rash things etc, but is incredibly happy, and then he crashes into a suicidal depression.

Thanks to everyone who is prepared to relate personal experiences.  I think it's reassuring to know how other people manage this apparently increasing problem.

Just on that, why do you think there seems to be such an increase in depression?  Is it because it's more widely talked about, recognised and treated?  Or is there an increasing tendency to label oneself and others as depressed when in fact - as someone has already pointed out - mood swings and feeling anxious or sad is simply a normal part of being human?

Julia


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## nelly (27 September 2006)

Morning everyone.......I think if your behaviour/emotional state affects your social or personal relationships you need to check it out. It is not normal human behaviour. Yes we all have our ups n downs but anything wildly outside of this needs treatment/councelling........or mayb just a long holiday in the Bahamas.  

cheerful


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## krisbarry (27 September 2006)

Its been an increadible struggle for me over the past 5 years.  4 out of 5 people in my family have suffered it and it goes way back through the family history.

On my worst days I would just sit in my room and cry all day for no reason at all.  I sometimes cannot even venture outdoors as I would just cry in-front of people.

My self esteem just plummets and I cannot even hold a conversation.

Depression does wonders for my share-trading and account balance  

Medication has helped, but massive side effects.


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## nelly (27 September 2006)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> Its been an increadible struggle for me over the past 5 years.  4 out of 5 people in my family have suffered it and it goes way back through the family history.
> 
> On my worst days I would just sit in my room and cry all day for no reason at all.  I sometimes cannot even venture outdoors as I would just cry in-front of people.
> 
> ...




I wish I could in good conscience give you some advise, [of course I have an opinion]    but as I'm not a Dr will refrain. I'm sure you have checked out your options as far as a change in meds, all I will say is I empathise and wish you 'luck.' 
post script: Do you have that famous 'someone to talk to'?

cheerful


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## krisbarry (27 September 2006)

Here are some of the medications and techniques I use to cope with depression:

(Meds)

Aropax
Cipramil
Zoloft

(Alternatives)

Fish Oil
St John's Wort
Multi-Vitamins
Bananas

(Techniques)

Sunshine
Lifting Weights
Walking
Yoga
Meditation
Deep Breathing Exercises
Watching a comedy movie
Listening to music
Socialising
Sleep
CBT
Stop thought techniques
Self bullying stop techniques

But on some days in which I try so much of this on my list that it cannot relieve the depression I just give up!


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## noirua (27 September 2006)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> Here are some of the medications and techniques I use to cope with depression:
> 
> (Techniques)
> 
> ...





How can you do all this after spending so much time on ASF?


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## Happy (27 September 2006)

OK we’ve worked out how to fight it with various degree of success, however Chinese way of medical practice is to prevent ills happening in a first place.

Triggers ?
Between others

Could be chemicals – including ones we can smell in new car or house, supposedly new house is quite poisonous for about 2 years, could be longer.

Lifestyle including expectations of others that we are trying to live up to 
Could be lack of quality rest – even noisy neighbourhood after a while can affect in negative way, possibly even mobile or cordless phone too close to head at night – lets remember these things emit energy 24/7
Even live electrical cables

Also if our body is positioned East – West or North – South

Could be underground water, which supposedly can affect us up to 10 metres – supposedly indicator is if cat loves to sleep on our bed you should move your bed by at least 2 metres, as cats love to sleep on watercourse. 
Supposedly dogs have similar requirements in this regard to humans.

While talking about that with friends, they say it is impossible and follow their opinion with hundreds of reasons why, so suppose they are right.


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## Julia (27 September 2006)

STC

I'm really sorry that you have had/are having such a bad time with this.

You've listed some really good "management techniques" there.
Any form of exercise is good in that if done to a sufficiently sustained and intense level will produce endorphin release.

Could I just suggest that talking to family and friends is probably much less useful than talking to a counsellor.  (a) family/friends usually don't have any training in how to listen effectively, and (b) they are too connected with you to be objective.

After I left a destructive marriage, I had repetitive nightmares which relived the person trying to kill me.  I constantly woke up terrified and the awful feeling stayed with me most of the day.  Finally went to see a psychologist and talked it all through (had never discussed it with anyone properly), and now only ever get the very occasional nightmare when I feel very anxious about something.

Julia


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## x2rider (27 September 2006)

hi folks 

 Hi Julia 
 Having come so close to the edge a couple of years ago and having been to the counsellors for "treatment . I think I have found that there was just really nothing in it for me . 
 I found them way easy to talk to and you end up pouring out your guts to them but I found there was no magic cure that they could give me . The pills made me feel worse and your friends seem to stop visiting as much as they used to . Ã don't know why . You are still the same person you were before but things just seem to change in people . They probably don't even know it or notice it them selves but it is there  
 I know it still effects me greatly and it lingers just below the surface and some times doesn't take much to bring it to the surface . Just spilling sugar over the bench top while making a coffee can just seem like the end of the world sometimes . 
So I work.  I wake  myself up a couple of hours before I need to go to work because sometimes it just takes that long to get things working and get on the right track for the day .
 I like to listen to music and find it helps some times but other times music can be quite destructive as well . 
 Just one question though and it is just an observation . Why do people think that a good holiday in an exotic place will be the cure for depression . Your just moving it to a different place . It's always with you and will still be there when you get home 
 Cheers Martin


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## barney (27 September 2006)

So many people suffering here that I don't know where to start.........my sympathies with all who are troubled.......if anyone would like to discuss and get some genuine empathy/hopefully solutions, please private message me (my best friend is a psychologist....and he suffers from depression)....Cheers,  Barney.


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## MalteseBull (27 September 2006)

yes back in the sons of gwalia days


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## nioka (27 September 2006)

Remember it is all in the mind. So are dreams. Treat it like one and move on.


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## Julia (27 September 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> Remember it is all in the mind. So are dreams. Treat it like one and move on.




Nioka,

With respect, that comment is guaranteed to make people suffering from severe depression feel a thousand times worse.  The whole point of a real clinical depression is that the person just cannot move on.  If they could, they would!

I guess you have never known anyone with an incapacitating depression.  It simply removes your capacity to act normally.  Telling someone in this situation to "move on" is frankly useless.  Your comments are completely ignoring the consideration of the brain's biochemistry and placing the problem in the category of "motivation".  It's just not that simple.

I'm all for positive self talk etc etc and personally I've always been able to sort of "flow with periods of depression" and come out the other side.  But I've known many people who simply can't do this and who are absolutely incapacitated and/or suicidal without professional intervention.

Julia


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## Julia (27 September 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> So many people suffering here that I don't know where to start.........my sympathies with all who are troubled.......if anyone would like to discuss and get some genuine empathy/hopefully solutions, please private message me (my best friend is a psychologist....and he suffers from depression)....Cheers,  Barney.




Well, yes, but there are psychologists and psychologists.  A close friend of mine is a psychologist but she honestly has no real understanding of depression.  She is deeply religious and her answer is to ask for God's help!!!
She's a great person and a good friend as long as we don't discuss religion.
But I would never go to her in her professional capacity!

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (27 September 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Lifestyle including expectations of others that we are trying to live up to
> Could be lack of quality rest – even noisy neighbourhood after a while can affect in negative way, possibly even mobile or cordless phone too close to head at night – lets remember these things emit energy 24/7
> Even live electrical cables



I would very strongly suggest that nobody should be sleeping with a mobile phone anywhere near them. If you must keep it in the bedroom for some reason (such as being on call for work etc) then on the floor in the corner or some other place well away from you is the place for it.

Radio comms safety 101 - you don't expose yourself to above background levels of RF radiation if you wish to live a long and healthy life. You keep any transmission antenna as far away from the body as possible, preferably locating it in a fixed position and connecting the equipment via shielded cables. Amateur radio enthusiasts ignoring these basic principles are known to not live too long. 

Mobiles send RF straight into your body 24/7 - not exactly rocket science that you don't want to be sleeping with one.

That said, there is no _proof_ in a strict sense of any danger. An observed relationship but no strict proof. Just like there is no actual proper _proof_ that cigarettes or asbestos are dangerous to health. A causal relationship yes, but that's not strictly defined _proof_. 

IMO it's treading a _very_ thin line to be saying that "there's no proof mobies aren't safe" given the virtual impossibility of proving such a danger even where (as with cigarettes or asbestos) it has been observed often enough to be accepted as reality. _Something_ must be causing the rise in brain tumors  ...


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## scranch (27 September 2006)

nioka,
Depression is of the mind,not in the mind.A big difference as to cause and effect.
Brian


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## nelly (27 September 2006)

x2rider said:
			
		

> hi folks
> Just one question though and it is just an observation . Why do people think that a good holiday in an exotic place will be the cure for depression . Your just moving it to a different place . It's always with you and will still be there when you get home
> Cheers Martin




Hi Martin.....sorry I sounded flippant when I was going for a bit of levity, of course you are right.
cheerful


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## dr00 (28 September 2006)

my partner is an occupational therapist working in the voluntary psychiatric ward at perth's biggest hospital, so the following is from her  

Depression is a huge topic and people on here have brought up heaps of different issues - too many for me to talk about but i will cover a few. 
I always tell my patients never to come off their meds without talking to their doctor beceause of side effects, risk of relapse etc etc. So many people stop taking them cos they feel better and then 2-3 months down the track have relapsed and feeling suicidal. It is also really important to tell your doctor if the meds aren't helping cos they should. There are so many different anti depressants out there and different combinations so can take a while to find the right one - if you're not feeling better within 4-8 weeks, go back and get them re-assessed. Studies have shown that combination therapy (medications and psychotherapy) is the most effective treatment for depression. 




			
				Julia said:
			
		

> This is a really interesting thread.
> 
> Nelly, your point about doctors and doing your own research is well made.
> Some years ago I felt depressed and tearful, no energy, everything was a huge effort.  Went to Dr who said "change of country, lots of stress, etc etc - you need anti depressants".  Didn't make sense to me.  I was happy about the change and didn't feel stressed in any usual sense.  So I insisted on a check on the biochemistry - lo, it came back with a low thyroid reading.  A few weeks on the appropriate thyroxine replacement and I was fine!
> I just feel doctors, whether because of time constraints, or just lack of interest, are much too fast to pump out prescriptions for drugs.




I agree with what you have said Julia and in order for a proper diagnosis of any mental illness to be made organic causes need to be ruled out. I work in a tertiary hospital and we screen every pt that comes in to rule out any organic causes. It is not uncommon that we pick up on physical problems that can impact on people's mental state. 

From an OT point of view I talk to pts alot about how their depression (or other mental illness) impacts on their ability to function in day to day tasks. Anxiety and feeling sad or low are normal responses but it is when they are persistent or impacting on your ability to engage in day to day activities that it becomes a problem and you need to seek professional help. If you're not getting the help you need from the GP dont be afraid to present to ED for a brief psych admission to sort out meds, psychotherapy, CBT and regular follow up care through a mental health clinic etc. 

I know this is a bit medical but i strongly believe that medications have a role in treating the symptoms of depression and then doing some psychotherapy in conjunction once some of the symptoms have lifted a little, ie slightly clearer mind, improved concentration etc. 
If anyone wants any info from me ie education, where to get help, coping strategies etc on an informal basis i am more than happy for people to pm dr00 and i will do my best. 
Cheers for reading what I have to say - in case you cant tell i am passionate about mental health!


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## barney (28 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Well, yes, but there are psychologists and psychologists.  A close friend of mine is a psychologist but she honestly has no real understanding of depression.  She is deeply religious and her answer is to ask for God's help!!!
> She's a great person and a good friend as long as we don't discuss religion.
> But I would never go to her in her professional capacity!
> 
> Julia




Hi Julia, Enjoy your posts, obviously a caring person............Re my last post.....Just want to clarify I wasn't indicating that I wanted to "refer" anyone to see my friend the Phsycologist..........I was just trying to point out that anyone (even phsycologists) can suffer from Depression....Cheers Barney


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## nioka (28 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Nioka,
> 
> With respect, that comment is guaranteed to make people suffering from severe depression feel a thousand times worse.  The whole point of a real clinical depression is that the person just cannot move on.  If they could, they would!
> 
> ...



Been there twice so I know what I'm talking about. The first time treated with all sorts of pills which worked but had lots of problems, particularly getting off them. 
 A few years later with another problem I was at the bottom of the pit again when I was told that it is only in the mind, examine the mind, get busy, get active, and get your mind busy on other things. It worked and still works for me. It's worth a try.


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## tech/a (28 September 2006)

*Depression*

I cant even think about it!!


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## Julia (28 September 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> Hi Julia, Enjoy your posts, obviously a caring person............Re my last post.....Just want to clarify I wasn't indicating that I wanted to "refer" anyone to see my friend the Phsycologist..........I was just trying to point out that anyone (even phsycologists) can suffer from Depression....Cheers Barney



Hi Barney

Yes, I realised that.  It was just that your post reminded me of how different mental health professionals have their own weakness in the therapy areas, as well as being vulnerable themselves.

Cheers
Julia


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## Julia (28 September 2006)

tech/a said:
			
		

> *Depression*
> 
> I cant even think about it!!



Because????

Julia


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## nioka (28 September 2006)

tech/a said:
			
		

> *Depression*
> 
> I cant even think about it!!



Don't . Thinking about it compounds the problem. There are plenty of better things to think about. It is a nice sunny day here and after all it IS the first day of the rest of your life.


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## macca (28 September 2006)

Hi Stop the clock,

I noticed that you have tried a few alternative treatments, have you ever tried SamE ?

My wife used this when a bit down and found it helped, she suffers from the blues a bit, but not too severely.


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## Happy (28 September 2006)

> From ABC, September 28, 2006
> Depression patients urged to exercise
> 
> 
> ...




Article right on cue.

Of course there is other end of spectrum, with exercise junkies, who have to do weights 5 to 6 hours a day to feel reasonable.
During physical activity our body produces narcotic - feel good substance, unfortunately adictive.

Everything best in moderation


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## x2rider (28 September 2006)

Hi folks . 

 Don't worry Nelly . I though that A holiday would be the thing as well in the early stages but just found out that I could of been surrounded by  bikini clad woman on a remote beach and I think I still would of found something that would just keep me from enjoying it .

 After a while you just always tend to see things through dark glasses and it is hard to find cheer in anything . And I found that when it was finally time for me to go over the edge it happened after a really good day at work . couldn't explain what it was but I felt that it was just the thing to do . I think it was the only time in the  last few months that I had ever done anything with any sort of conviction . I almost felt like I was actually watching myself go through it all from a distance and just couldn't stop  
 I know now when I am not feeling to good . My trading is bad and when a trade goes against you , You just tend to sit there and watch it as though you are punishing yourself for being so stupid . And although the button to sell is right in front of you it just seems like the hardest thing to push it .

 I still surprise my friends sometimes by just turning up on their doorstep and just wanting to be around other people gives me security when things just don't seem to be working out .  They probably wonder why I have come around just for no reason but maybe they understand . 

 I think the worst thing with depression is 
A. not knowing that you have it 
B. the people that tell you just to get over it . 
You think maybe they should try it once , but then you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy 
 Cheers Martin


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## Julia (28 September 2006)

x2rider said:
			
		

> Hi folks .
> 
> Don't worry Nelly . I though that A holiday would be the thing as well in the early stages but just found out that I could of been surrounded by  bikini clad woman on a remote beach and I think I still would of found something that would just keep me from enjoying it .
> 
> ...




Hello Martin

That's just such a great post.  Gives more insight into how depression actually IS than many of the so called learned academic textbook descriptions.
Thank you and my very best wishes.

Julia


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## Wysiwyg (28 September 2006)

My say is (which is helpful)........I caught depression and found that by removing,fighting off and ignoring the depressants I achieved a better quality of life.I now have more respect and less baggage.

I cut tv ,radio ,newspapers, bullies , and false people out of my life. 

This is an excerpt from a web site I found when  needed some answers.I don`t go there much anymore but is good for reference.It covers heaps of stuff and if anyone wants to view the web site then I will paste it to them.

Remember: you are not a victim but a target.

- from Bully in Sight, by Tim Fields

top tips to take control

The first thing to recognize is that you are not alone, but you probably are one of the first few to attempt to identify, what you are going through as work place bullying. Hang on in there.

Psychologically I believe this has a bearing on how you think about the whole situation. You are a good person who is with out doubt well respected and probably admired by peers, colleagues and service users. By valuing yourself, you will begin to establish a clear picture of what is going on and why. 

Nobody has the fundamental right to tarnish or harm you or your reputation as an individual...... :grenade:


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## tech/a (29 September 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Because????
> 
> Julia




I get depressed.


No no no only kidding---yes I know its a serious topic but I have this problem with humour,its evil!


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## cogidubnus (29 September 2006)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> Anyone suffered it?
> 
> I have!
> 
> ...



When I was kid grew up in depression. My father use to shoot rabbits for stew. There was no christmas presents, life was very tough. My sister died because she was ill. we were very young and I hardly remember now.


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## cogidubnus (29 September 2006)

On lighter note we arrive in adelaide. the city has changed much since i was here 15 years ago. my back packer friends are fun and are have good time. i now almost speak fluent japanese    time forgives all hates    we will keep driving to Perth   life is good. i am happy with aex gold silver etc.


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## Julia (2 October 2006)

There was an interesting interview this morning on Radio National's "Life Matters" programme with Prof Martin Seligman to whom I have referred when we've discussed this topic in the past.  For anyone interested, the details will be on the ABC's website usually from tomorrow.

He teaches at one of the US's large universities and has for some years written widely on the general theme of "learned optimism".   His point is that there tends to be a focus on depression, disorders, and disease etc., and that by altering the focus somewhat onto more affirming aspects of our lives we can gradually adjust the way we think.

He's not proposing that this is a substitute for medication in people who are severely depressed but rather that it's an adjunct, or possibly a preventative measure for people who just feel their lives are dull and boring.  His simple suggestion, for a start, is to routinely think about three things every day that we can be grateful for in our lives.  Sound too simplistic?  Possibly.
However, a person I know who was hospitalised for severe depression says he finally made his way out by just using the phrase "fake it till you make it"
feigning cheerfulness even when he didn't feel all that great.  These days he's a happy and productive member of society and has completed a degree in about half the usual time.

Professor Seligman's other suggestion is that more of us get involved in doing something for others.  Studies have measured how good people felt after (a) doing something 'fun', or (b) helping another person, and the people who had done something altruistic felt a far greater sense of satisfaction.

Julia


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## macca (3 October 2006)

I have been reading a book about cholestrol and the associated misinformation over the weekend, it seems that one of the side effects of cholesterol reducing (statin) drugs can be depression.


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## idribble (3 October 2006)

Scary stuff!

Worth noting for family members is the following.

"The only information a family member or Doctor can act on is from the person themselves, and they are in no condition to provide decent information."


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## Wysiwyg (3 October 2006)

This site is choc full of ideas and answers.You can heal yourself. :bekloppt: 


www.thisisawar.com/Authors.htm


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## krisbarry (3 October 2006)

Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> This site is choc full of ideas and answers.You can heal yourself. :bekloppt:
> 
> 
> www.thisisawar.com/Authors.htm




Thanks for the website, very interesting links.

I have to disagree about self-healing, it aint that simply!

I have even studied psychology at university level, but that aint gonna self heal me from the mirage of mental illness.

It takes professional help to implement skill sets to re-program the brain and guide patients to better health.

Its like the Nurse who learns how to nurse patients to better health but fails to keep herself/himself healthy. 

Learning is one thing but implimenting that knowledge into practical steps takes professional help, much practise, guidance and support.


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## Wysiwyg (3 October 2006)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> Thanks for the website, very interesting links.
> 
> I have to disagree about self-healing, it aint that simply!
> 
> ...





Hi there S.T.C.,

                    thanks for pointing out the other extreme. To encompass a complex subject the answers are not in the words alone.I want people to help themselves by gaining a better understanding.

Good vibes, W


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## kaveman (4 October 2006)

Depression is a very complex problem. Self help is fine for minor cases. Medication can help manage it, if you can find a med that works without bad side effects. The best help is managing your life style to reduce stress factors. Of course with depression it is difficult to do much of anything to help yourself as the depression affects your thinking and emotional stability. You may not be able to make any changes because you simply cannot be bothered, or work out for yourself what needs to be fixed/changed. Family or very close friend is definitely the best help you can have.


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## nelly (4 October 2006)

TUESDAY, Oct. 3 (HealthDay News) -- New insights into how genes affect an individual's response to particular drugs could someday speed the effective treatment of depression, researchers say.

Reporting in the Oct. 4 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, scientists say variations in a serotonin transport gene accurately predicted which patients would respond to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) drugs such as Prozac.

They also identified key variations in the norepinephrine transporter (NET) gene. Those variants predicted response to nortriptyline, an antidepressant in a class of drugs called norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (NRIs).

"I don't think this is going to change the way we treat depression, but it's another piece of the puzzle that will help us individualize treatment," said Dr. Julio Licinio, chairman of psychiatry at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. He was not involved in the research.

The study, conducted by researchers in the United States and Korea, shows "that it's important to look at gene variants in terms of treatment response," Licinio said.

Some 30 percent to 40 percent of patients fail their first drug treatment for major depression. Experts say that, right now, it's not possible to predict with any degree of accuracy which drug will work best for each patient.

Clinicians are pinning future hopes on "pharmacogenetics," or genetic factors that influence an individual's response to drugs.

There's reason for some optimism. Previous studies have shown that polymorphisms (individual differences in the DNA sequence) in the serotonin transporter gene might predict response to SSRIs, which include drugs such as Celexa, Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft.

Ethnic variations may also play a role. Prior studies have shown that gene variants linked to poor response to SSRIs among white patients were actually associated with a good response in Japanese and Korean patients.

"This raises some basic genetic questions about what exactly is the signal coming from the polymorphisms as to function and as to interaction with the drugs," Bernard Carroll, co-author of the research and scientific director of the Pacific Behavioral Research Foundation in Carmel, Calif., said in a prepared statement. "And it serves as a caution that results found in one ethnic group can't necessarily be transposed straight across to another ethnic group."

The new research was conducted at Samsung Medical Center in Seoul and was supported by the South Korean Ministry of Health and Welfare.

The study authors tracked the outcomes of a group of 241 Koreans diagnosed with major depression that had begun, on average, in the individuals' early-to-mid 50s.

The researchers were interested in two different types of antidepressants and associated pathways in the body: SSRIs and the serotonin transporter gene, as well as NRIs and the associated norepinephrine transporter (NET) gene. 

Participants were treated for six weeks with an SSRI (either Prozac or Zoloft) or the NRI nortriptyline (brand names Aventyl or Pamelor).

Individuals who carried the "GG" polymorphism of NET had a better rate of response to NRI treatment than to SSRI treatment (83.3 percent and 58.7 percent, respectively).

"That's a 25 percent difference in response rate, so that is going to have a major impact, we would predict, on clinical practice," Carroll said.

The research also confirmed that response to SSRIs was associated with a genetic variation in the serotonin transporter gene.

Although the findings are preliminary and need to be replicated, particularly in a white population, "we're certainly optimistic that it's going to stand up," Carroll said.

More than half (56 percent) of Koreans and about 45 percent of whites have the GG polymorphism, the researchers noted.

"This is likely to still be a major finding in [whites] if the replications studies hold up," Carroll said. "If our findings are confirmed and if this genotyping is taken up in clinical services, then the market for SSRI drugs as first-line treatment will fall by around 50 percent. Another implication is that new drug development will shift to dual-action agents."

"The word is now out that depression is a very serious disorder with major public health and economic consequences," he continued. "There is a great deal of motivation on the professional side to do a better job of treating depression and this genetic prediction is an obvious place to start." 

More information

For more on depression, visit the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health.

Some info' I thought was interesting.
cheerful


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## barney (4 October 2006)

Hi Nelly, Re your above post..........It is interesting...........Funny thing about Doctors prescibing Drugs for all to use.........when we get reports like this, it indicates that even the Doctors are "shooting in the dark" a lot of the time..........Knowledge is everything (particularly in the share market!) All the best, Barney.


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## Wysiwyg (6 October 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> Hi Nelly, Re your above post..........It is interesting...........Funny thing about Doctors prescibing Drugs for all to use.........when we get reports like this, it indicates that even the Doctors are "shooting in the dark" a lot of the time..........Knowledge is everything (particularly in the share market!) All the best, Barney.




Wonder why they put candles in pumpkins?Symbolistic maybe.The movies link the image to fear (eyes and teeth). 

Anyway most may not be interested but I know that setting and working toward goals changes the minds focus , sort of like a shift in consciousness away from the depressive/supressive situation.Something that I still find challenging to overcome is the self talk we all have.You know , those words that swirl around 24/7 in mind (the chatterbox).Taped and reinforced from conception.You know , the tapes (words,emotions,sensations,experiences)from our parents and citizens.

To quieten the chatterbox does require knowledge of it and meditation is a recommended  practice to control it.Some people have a purring cat while others have a full decibel rock concert or the sad violin playing (to use anologies).To overcome depression I think people have to see and understand what has/is happening and then apply comfortable techniques.The practices come in many forms and the words I CAN will help.
NOW is the time to get out of that rut and give something lovely to a fellow hoomun. 
P.S....criticism is welcome....and I don`t always practice what I preach... :alcohol:


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## krisbarry (6 October 2006)

Speaking of negative self-talk, I am in the process of challenging my own self talk.

I am using the stop thought techinque, then challening the thought and replacing it with a thought that is positive.

The more I practise these techniques the more positive my self-talk track will become and therefore the less depressed days I will have, and the less medication I will need to take.

I can honestly say that it is working already.

*The mind is such a powerful thing, what was learned, needs to be unlearned!*


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## Milk Man (6 October 2006)

Funny you should raise this STC. I have been helping a friend with depression and came across this site, moodgym.anu.edu.au, which helps analyse and re-correct negative thought patterns. Having had depression myself I can safely say it is right on the money.


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## Julia (6 October 2006)

Yes, the negative/positive self talk does work imo.  It's a variation of the "learned optimism" philosophy that I described earlier.

Btw, nortryptilene (or versions of that drug) has been used to treat depression for more than 30 years.

Julia


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## yogi-in-oz (6 October 2006)

Hi folks,

Don't normally get time to get involved in these general topics,
but this one is an exception ..... that's because it is a quality
thread and some of the info below may be of some help for 
sufferers of deep depression.

Most people would agree, if stress and depression can be 
overcome, without the need for ANY drugs, then we have a 
better chance of living a normal and happy life.

Using the mind for self-healing has been around for  
centuries, but the use of positive self-talk and other
techniques can now be complemented by another powerful
tool, in the form of guided imagery.

In counselling, some clients respond well to guided imagery, 
when being treated for anxiety, grief, loss, stress, as well as
depression, such is the power of the mind and the best part 
..... it's drug-free !!

Once learned, you have these simple skills for life and when
used frequently, they become second-nature and very fast in 
their implementation, with some impressive results. 

Of course, that's not good news to those who are addicted to their meds ..... 

For more info about Sandy Macgregor and his "Piece of Mind"
program, go to:

www.calm.com.au

..... highly recommended.

-----

Spiritual healing is also another drug-free avenue to explore 
for some folk dealing with depression ..... but, that's a
discussion for another day !~!

happy days

  yogi


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

Found a quote on http://www.wisdomquotes.com "The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy, amidst the simple beauty of nature...."

If I tell you the author I think it will mean more....(Anne Frank)


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## wayneL (7 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Found a quote on http://www.wisdomquotes.com "The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy, amidst the simple beauty of nature...."
> 
> If I tell you the author I think it will mean more....(Anne Frank)




I like that one too 20/20


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

My guess is that you have to trick your mind into being positive - like for instance fall in love  - with Apollo maybe, that round ball of warmth that greets us every morning (unless you live in Melbourne that is lol - but then, so what, its still once a week ). Maybe make a contract to give something three times a day - paganism? probably, depends if the gift is easily achievable, and doesnt tread on the bishop's toes....and of course the giving is the greatest healer of all. Sorry - you guessed it, here comes another of those bloody poems.     

THE SUNSHINE SALESMAN  

Lady would you like to buy the soul of a sunrise, 
Chirping from the treetops, yodelling its birth; 
Melt in the mellow of its crystal fragrance - 
Christened with a dewdrop - Guess how much it's worth. 
Well....Normally they retail for about ten a penny, 
Depending on the packaging and somewhat on the style, 
But.. 'Sposing that you promise to embrace it just a moment, 
It's yours...for the price of a wakening smile. 

Lady can I tempt you with the nectar of a noontime  
Listen to the honeybees, busy buzzing by.. 
"Bright gold sunshine lady, hug yourself an armful 
Flowers at your ankles, Fire in the Sky" 
Well.. Normally again it is really quite expensive, 
Litres cost a Lire, and a gallon costs three, 
But .. 'Sposing that you promise to look just once skyward, 
and Tune in to the laughter.. then its all yours free. 

Lady have you watched in the sobbing of a sunset 
How Apollo staggers , how his blood spills, 
Nestles in his grave in the far horizon 
Bitter sweet death in the western hills. 
Now.. Best price I can give you for the master's magic - 
Last rites included - is a dime for two; 
But.. 'Sposing on your face I see just one tear of gratitude - 
My sale has been rewarded, and that tear will do.  

I'm not gonna say you had to be there (again ) - because - we are all of us "there"  every day of our lives   - might help   cheers


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I like that one



Wayne - did you ever pick up a hint in her book that Anne Frank ever became depressed - personally I cant remember lol, but I dont think so - amazing isnt it if she didnt - of if she did she rose above it  - and only 13 years old in 1942 when the family went into hiding.    
By the way thanks for that website with all that wisdom and quotes and words and stuff 
I see in Wikipedia that her diary (apart from being translated in most languages) also became an opera. heart wrenching stuff.
"Described as the work of a mature and insightful mind.. " well not bad for 13 anyway.

and the irony of her quote below.. "the best rememdy to being unhappy is to go outside" .....sheesh - as if she could do that


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## nelly (7 October 2006)

Hi everybody..lotsa good info on this thread huh.

Some of my 'self talk' goes something like this.....

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
- Mark Twain

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
- Robert Heinlein

The game of life is not so much in holding a good hand as playing a poor hand well.
- H.T. Leslie

I have one for most situations which cause me to negatively 'self talk' .
What really helps is reading the paper....there is always someone much worse off than I. And yes I do tell myself to get over it and get on with it and I actually listen to myself sometimes. If it doesn't work I keep a mild sedative handy [just in case I see a snake    which I also keep handy] and get a good nights sleep and try again the next day.

[sorry for ramblin'].....have a good one


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## Bobby (8 October 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> If it doesn't work I keep a mild sedative handy [just in case I see a snake    which I also keep handy] and get a good nights sleep and try again the next day.



Yes I see your point nelly, those trouser snakes are potent


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## nelly (8 October 2006)

I'm not sure how to take that Bobby.[chuckle]


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## nioka (8 October 2006)

The game of life is not so much in holding a good hand as playing a poor hand well.
- H.T. Leslie:[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Probably the best comment yet on ths subject.


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## billhill (8 October 2006)

Just thought I'd share a couple of these articles that might aid people suffering depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16650900&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16331126&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

Both omega 3 and exercise have been shown to aid in reducing symptoms of depression. The articles above are actually abstracts from clinical experiments so if your wary of information on the internet this is a reliable source. Hope these help.


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## chops_a_must (18 August 2007)

Thought I'd contribute to the thread due to this being the time of the year that usually strikes me, as I have a cyclical depression, or perhaps even a mild form of cyclothymia (an atypical form of bi-polar) - which leads me to have periods of major depression and periods (albeit it much shorter unfortunately) of hypomania. So at these times I can read excessive amounts compared to normal; have extremely good recollection (on top of having a usually photographic memory anyway) and insomnia. But yes, I'm now at the start of my cycle that usually leads to 3-4 months of hell. And to top it off, I've had stuff to deal with this week that has set me back quite a way (separate from the market).

From between the ages of 18 and 21, I spent most of my time in and out of psych wards. Was very close to death on many occassions. Was nearly effectively braindead twice apparently. A side effect from medication also almost killed me, as a bout of tardive dyskinesia put my throat muscles into spasm and nearly crushed my wind pipe. I also had a temporary psychotic side effect from a drug called reboxetine, over powering 5 security guards during this. Apparently, it was "a miracle drug", but it just happens to randomly effect people's heart rates, randomly stimulate adrenaline production and crash and spike blood sugar levels. They are still prescribing it I believe...

Basically we had tried everything, and by the end of all this, I was totally unable to function in really any practical capacity. Although I managed to maintain good grades at UNI  . I had tried 15-20 anti-depressants. They either had no effect or the side effects outweighed the benefits. I remember having a panic attack after just one beer when on escitalopram. When I asked my doctor about this, his response was, "Oh no, you can't drink when on these." But this was at a time when I was trying to socialise to shake it, which I needed to do. So as a total last resort, I was put on dexamphetamine. It worked. I could actually function at last! And that's all that people with serious mental illness want, to be able to function. And I resent the fact that a large part of my life was wasted by trying the same things again and again.

Geez... this is getting long winded, lol! Anyway, 6 months later with a new psychiatrist, I explained that I wanted to be able to socialise and drink moderately whilst being on an anti-depressant. He gave me one. I didn't know there was one; I was never told. So I came off the speed and have made continual progress while on the oldest of all anti-depressants, Prozac/ Lovan/ Fluoxetine (same thing). And throughout this time I've recognised that when I crash, or just before, I stop reading, and when I'm recovering, I begin again. So, personally that has been the biggest help to me to recognise, being that I need to continually read. Even sitting on the grass at uni is all the social interaction I need to get my brain on the straight and narrow at times.

Julia, I know you wanted opinions on various treatments. I think I can offer some opinions.

In terms of therapy styles, DBT is far more effective than CBT. Long term impacts of CBT are totally negligible. It's just a method to get people out of wards quicker. 90% of people 3 months later are no better off after CBT.

In terms of medications (in order of success rates), Effexor has the best success rate (but the majority of people can't tolerate it, I was allergic to it), followed by the very first AD, Prozac or more commonly Lovan. It's also non reactive so you can drink and have fun on it without a problem. Escitalopram from what I know is next, although you cannot drink on it because it can kill you, and Avanza. I wouldn't recommend this one because of the weight gains, which in my mind is more likely to increase depression. Ciprimal is also OK, but the Escitalopram is a better version of it. These are the only meds I know of that have success above the placebo rate.

Zoloft is commonly prescribed but I've never seen it help anyone. I used to describe it as having a "zoning out" effect, but someone here called it zombie like, which is apt.

Julia,
I'm not sure if you realise but prolonged levels of anxiety will destroy your thyroid... the doctor's diagnosis and the physical hormone levels in my mind support each other.

I'm also a big believer in physical therapies, both exercise and body work to overcome depression and mental illness. Certainly since I began having regular work done, my rounded and hunched shoulders have been largely corrected, which is how a depressed person presents. I'm not sure if you can rid the internal problems without also aiding in relief from the external presentation and vice versa.

In fact I've spoken to some people about the above point, and it led to me being told that in some european countries one of the standard treatments for schizophrenia is massage. Because they have massive problems in being able to draw their own bodies, and situate themselves in space/ or have a total lack of spatial awareness, it helps them to gain this control and to be able to centralise thoughts and feelings more readily.

And even in my own work, it's quite obvious to see that people hold emotional problems in their body. This is no more evident than in myofascial release sessions.

Cheers,
Chops


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## CanOz (18 August 2007)

Top quality post Chops. 

One particular item that stands out to me is being able to recognise the symptoms again when they present themselves. To me its like being a place that you didn't like...at all, and you'll never forget the experience.

Having suffered severe clinical depression in the past i can relate somewhat, however i do realise that your case seems more severe than anything i experienced for sure. Interesting too what you say about the physical side of it, as i was nearly cripled by the back pain associated. 

I remember going through the yellow pages thinking, "I need help, quickly". I was drinking 6-8 beers every evening, no food...crying non stop from the moment i got home from work until i went to bed...tossing and turning with insomnia. But i only missed one day of work through this whole period. That day i just could not get out of bed...I think i cried all day. I lost over 12 kgs in 6 months.

Zoloft probably saved my life, that and the kind help of a great Physcologist that now lives in NZ, i'll never forget him. I didn't take him long to figure out what was wrong with me, i was a textbook case! Within 3 weeks of starting to take Zoloft the back pain stopped and i started feeling better.The zombie/dizziness lasted well after i stopped taking it though. 

From time to time i still suffer a milder form of whatever came over me the first time, but its manageable for me now on my own. One things for sure, if it ever gets to the stage that i cannot manage it i'll know for sure, as i said you'll never forget the feeling once you've had it.

Thanks for your post Chops and i sincerly wish you good health.

Cheers,


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## Flying Fish (18 August 2007)

My experience with depression is very unusual. In my teen and twneties and even to mid thirties, I suffered from serious depression, resulting in drinking etc. suicidal tendencies general hate of society people etc.I scrambled my way through some uni courses and basicially just watched about 20 years of my life evaporate. I was embarrased to seek treatment and basicially lost touch withg the few friends I had. To make things worse I gave up trying to have a serious relationship, and didn't even bother attempting dating.

On top of all this the loniliness was the worse thing. Absolute negativity in everything I did.

Then a few years back, I left the city and went north. Things changed immediately!! It must have been the weather or the dull grey drabbiness of the city because now I am surrounded in beautiful green hills, marvelous blue seas and beaches. and everything I seem to do  is more posistive. I am so happy and while I regret those wasted years of my youth, I look back and see ait as an experience. My only hope is that I live to a ripe age and stay fit and healthy to enjoy whats left of my life.

I could never live in a big city again, and I attribute this to my depression.

I guess its a state of mind, and sometimes I wonder if the tablets the doctors readily give out for this condition are really the solution.

Anyway thats my input.


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## BradK (18 August 2007)

Hi all, 

What an interesting thread - thought I might lay on the couch and share my experience if that is all right. 

I suffered from depression about 5 years ago. I used to go to bed at night and could feel it well up. I hated nights. I never sought treatment. 

One night, I was lying in bed early about 7.00pm on a daylight savings night. I thought, 'f&*k this! - I'm going for a run' ... I then started to exercise reguarly, and found that this helped immensely. I would run whenever the 'well up' came. 

Then, after about 2 months, I just 'forgot' and I have never been depressed since. ... and I dont run anymore - I really should though!!! LOL 

I am now pretty upbeat about life. I put my experience down to two things; 

1. I think that exercise must have released some chemical into my brain that doctors would have probably released with a drug (?)

2. Now, I work teaching HSC kids, and at the end of each year, get the pleasure of seeing them go off into the big wide world. For all the hard things about school teaching and the HSC, that is surprisingly a very optimistic part of it. 

I still get emails all the time from my kids asking about jobs advice, for references, telling me about marriages, babies, etc. 

I guess for all my religious up bringing, and even current 'mega-church' attendance with all its prosperity crap (hey its fun!) - I hold onto the one thing I have never been told by a minister; 

"LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT" 

I should also say that I know that this is just MY experience, and would never presume that depression is something just 'to get over'. My experience was relatively easy compared to others on here, and I empathise greatly. 

Oh well... think I might put the baby in a the pram and go for a run

Cheers
Brad


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## 2020hindsight (18 August 2007)

chops et al - here's how Shakespeare put it 
(PS I just posted this on message thread )...
of course the more you study modern first-world-man, the more you are entitled to be depressed - but let's not go there 
do what BradK does / did - headphones , treadmill, bit of sweat - sweat once a day like the Sparticans  

They say salt water is the cure for everything - tears, sweat, or the sea 


> Hamlet: II, ii
> HAMLET:  I have of late--but
> wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, *forgone all
> custom of exercises;* and indeed it goes so heavily
> ...




"lost all my mirth, *forgone all  custom of exercises*; "
see !! - even Shakespeare realised you had to exercise  

PS I also empathise greatly - my mum had a bout of serious depression for a few years there. - old history now though.


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## 2020hindsight (18 August 2007)

a quick comment from the gallery - but I found myself in more arguments (and apologies lol)  this fortnight (of bear market) than I did in the previous 12 months of bull market.  

methinks the bear from hibernation wakes
his joints are stiff, his mood is proper foul
and spreads contagious manners and headaches
and greets the glorious sunrise with a growl     (2020)



> Merchant of Venice: I, i
> ANTONIO: In sooth, I know not why I am so sad:
> It wearies me; you say it wearies you;
> But how I caught it, found it, or came by it,
> ...




Other Shakespearian quotes with "sad"...  http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=sad&mode=k


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## Bushman (18 August 2007)

To all who have shared their painful memories so eloquently and with such fortitude, I admire your courage and am heartened by your recovery. 

Money is one thing. Your health and capability to enjoy life is another thing all together. 

My sincerest well wishes to your continued and joyous journey through this wonderful adventure we call life's path. 

Bushman


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## Julia (18 August 2007)

BradK said:


> Hi all,
> 
> What an interesting thread - thought I might lay on the couch and share my experience if that is all right.
> 
> ...



Interesting to hear your experience, Brad.  Exercise, in sufficient quantity and of sufficient intensity, releases endorphins which are the body's natural opiates.  
This is apparently the basis on which George W. Bush dealt with his alcoholism - i.e. replaced the "high" of the booze with the high of exercise.


----------



## Boyou (18 August 2007)

I am amused at the way mind can work! When I first spotted the title of this thread I thought it concerned the current market jitters ie A Depression coming..(and perish the thought..I might add)

Was almost releived when I read the first post by it's creator.Not making light of this very debilitating condition at all ..just feeling a sense of releif,because somebody chose to go a bit "public" and so many have offered thoughts and  EMPATHY (A wonderful word)

I have had bouts of depression over the years.At times I think I have it licked but the Dog is never too far away...I am heartened to read the openess of the posters here and  their individual journeys and strategies for dealing with  this all to common condition.
 After all, it is probably at the root of so many other problems .Why do alcholics drink? Heroin addicts might have been seeking refuge from an inner storm the first time they shot up.
Thanks STC for starting the ball rolling and all contributors (wether sufferers or not) And remember you don't have to suffer from depression to "suffer" You just have to be married or related or have a close friend who does, to know the devestating effect it can have.

Finally ..apropos of 2020's post ..loved your poem about the Bear! ...very Sheakspearian. I add my own few words.

                  LIFE:         We are all in it together..........

Cheers Ya'll


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## cuttlefish (18 August 2007)

Over the past few six months I've been finding my way out of an episode of extremely deep depression/trauma.  The few things I've learnt that could help people that find themselves in similar situations are:

No matter how hard it is and how much your mind is having trouble coping with it, get out of bed and get into the shower, you just have to have a leap of faith that even though it sounds like it will be too difficult it will actually move you on forward through the day, and every day you go forward you put things further behind you.

Force yourself outside and into some hard labour or exercise. If necessary get someone to force you if they can but if you can do it on your own you'll cope better.

Seek out genuine friends and ask for help but be aware that you will only get out of this on your own, the support is only a temporary measure don't begin to rely on it or take it for granted. The support will not be there forever if you don't move on yourself, and make sure you reciprocate once you're out of the woods.   Don't get hung up on the people who you expected support from but didn't get it from, just be thankful for the ones that are there.

Actively control your thoughts until you find some sort of sanity. Force yourself to avoid the circular thinking and move forwards. Force yourself to read, watch television, work, do your taxes, crossword puzzles, anything.  ANY activity of any kind will help this process so most of all find activity to do.  Even if you can only concentrate 1 minute in 30 its a start. Also be aware that nobody will truly understand your situation/state of mind, so don't expect them to.  Also watch out for the trap once you've gotten a little way out of the woods and don't need as much mental discipline of falling back into the circular thinking habit.

Avoid day time naps even if your exhausted, sleep at night - the faster you get into a normal sleep routine the better. Similarly set the alarm and force yourself out of bed in the mornings. 

Start to understand yourself and what you need to be happy, think about what a happy life would mean for you and it will help to identify the obstacles that are preventing it.

Have faith that time does heal and if you take the positive steps you will find a path out of it. Take the pressure off yourself, help others to take the pressure off as well.


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## Flying Fish (18 August 2007)

"LIFE: We are all in it together.........."

Fantastic!!!


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## 2020hindsight (18 August 2007)

and/or ...
Life? no one gets out of it alive ??

Back to depression - when you hear people speaking candidly about it - either here or on youtube etc, it surely must help ? (yes?)) 
 CAN ANY ONE RELATE TO THIS? (BIPOLAR DISORDER)
STEVEN FRY THE LIFE OF A MANIC DEPRESSION'T 

Robbie Williams :- (laughing) "I don't have manic depression, I just get "dead upset!!"



> So unimpressed but so in awe
> Such a saint but such a wh-ore
> So self aware so full of ****
> So indecisive so adamant
> ...



Not sure how sorry I feel for Robbie Williams lol - 
but sad to see people not as happy as they might be / ought to be / should be    

As "Madonna" says ....

"I wonder if there's something wrong with me- but then I think - it's more just something that I need help with - so that I can feel better."


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## krisbarry (18 August 2007)

Its quite interesting how this thread popped up out of the depths of depression, in such a horrid few weeks on the market.  I forgot I even started this thread till it surfaced again.

Now I would feel that over 50% of traders/investors are suffering a little situational depression from the current market.  Thats is to be expected, and very normal.

The strange thing about depression is the misconception of it, and how it can strike in times of despair or completely out of the blue.

I am learning about trigger points for depression, some of which I will list below.  These things I try and avoid or minimize, and I know they trigger episodes of depression that can last for days/weeks/months at a time.

- Not enough sleep (late nights)
- Too much socialising (not enough time alone)
- Too much alcohol
- Stressful events
- Working to much
- Back to back negative events or setbacks
- negative self talk
- comparing levels of wealth/career/materalistic possessions etc
- Saying yes to people - too much, too often
- Being around negative people
- keeping up with others
- Over scheduling/ over comitting
- Too much debt
- Over-spending


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## Wysiwyg (18 August 2007)

Sources......from what I see there are two sources of depression.Internal and external.
The internal source is i.m.o. from the subconscious , negative self talk and the assosciated poor diet/exercise .For example first thoughts when waking up is...I want to stay in bed, what will I do today, I`m tired, not hungry, have I got enough money and many more that I don`t want to depress anyone with.*These thoughts can be changed ,switched or  substituted for **more positive healthy thoughts*.Help is needed in understanding the workings of mind so the source is found and countered.Easier said than done because everyone learns at a different pace.

The external source is the one that I can`t deal with mainly because it is out of my control.The people (yes fellow humans) that are suppressive.We do it to each other and it is a tit for tat,dominance and submission or beat the other person down situation.Ego related in by suppressing another individual one gets a feeling of "winning" ,of control and of assumed safety in life.Some even get lauded by their peers for beating someone down.

These suppressive people are the ones who bring depression on.Examples of suppressive people are the `type` that hate skin colour, that hate skinny kids, that hate fat people, that hate red heads, that hate foreigners, that hate another footy club supporter, that hate you looking at them, that hate anything you say, that hate  babies crying, that hate women, that hate men, that hate religion, that hate work, that hate you and the list goes on.The victims sooner or later become depressed.This dis-ease is worldwide from presidents to preachers.It is a dis-ease of mind.

So as you can see I think that the external source of depression is more common in everyones lives and we all do it to greater or lesser degrees.



*please note that the word hate is substituted for dislike,don`t like,beat up and put down.


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## Flying Fish (18 August 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> Its quite interesting how this thread popped up out of the depths of depression, in such a horrid few weeks on the market.  I forgot I even started this thread till it surfaced again.
> 
> Now I would feel that over 50% of traders/investors are suffering a little situational depression from the current market.  Thats is to be expected, and very normal.
> 
> ...




Material wise yes. What would happen if someone close to you killed themself for no reason?


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## cuttlefish (18 August 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Sources......from what I see there are two sources of depression.Internal and external.
> The internal source is i.m.o. from the subconscious , negative self talk and the assosciated poor diet/exercise .For example first thoughts when waking up is...I want to stay in bed, what will I do today, I`m tired, not hungry, have I got enough money and many more that I don`t want to depress anyone with.*These thoughts can be changed ,switched or  substituted for **more positive healthy thoughts*.Help is needed in understanding the workings of mind so the source is found and countered.Easier said than done because everyone learns at a different pace.




Wysiwyg - to some extent I see these thoughts/behaviours as the symptoms rather than the source of depression, and yes treating the symptoms can help in reducing the further damage that could result from not addressing them (e.g. suicide/self harm, relationship breakup(s), loss of income/assets, inflicting harm on others etc. all of which would only further exacerbate the depressive state) - however the initial cause(s) of the depression condition are often complex - sometimes even if it seems straightforward to outsiders. 

For example health problems, relationship breakup, loss of a loved one, other trauma (accident, assault etc.) might seem like obvious causes but it can still be complex for the individual concerned, and the ramifications of these sorts of events vary from individual to individual depending on their own life history, their own expectations of themselves, of others and of life in general, and other life history factors including a history of other adverse events or depression.


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## 2020hindsight (18 August 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> material wise yes. what would happen if someone close to you killed themself for no reason?



FF  If  I could just add my agreement with Bushman - 



Bushman said:


> To all who have shared their painful memories so eloquently and with such fortitude, I admire your courage .....Bushman




and maybe yet another verse of amateur poetry ... (and hoping it's not an insult) 

Sometimes a man or woman has to search some tracks alone
praps find some missing pieces of some play,
despite the senses numbing from the pain of things unknown
to face another jigsaw-ridden day.

Sometimes a deed illogical can play on loved one's minds
if only they had waited 'stead of acted
as Newton said of bodies and the friendly force that binds 
for every act, another is reacted.


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## Sprinter79 (19 August 2007)

I might add my experiences here, as both someone who has experienced depression, and someone who lives with someone with significant depression, does that make sense :

A bit of background, our parents seperated when I was 17 and my brother was 12. I was going into Uni, and he was going into high school. The first night dad spent away was Christmas eve. Bad timing........ oooo yeah.

My brother developed problems before I did, but that was possibly because he had me for a father figure, and I sucked at it.

I'm 28 now, and the hardest part when dealing with his depression is trying to talk logically to someone who isn't thinking logically. Even after 10 years of trying to help, sometimes I just beat my head up against a brick wall. I can't win no matter what. 

I can't really offer much advice to help those who live with those with depression, sometimes just listening to them vent is the best thing to do.. don't offer advice, or tell them they're wrong, just listen.

As for my own battles, my response to my parent's split was to develop Chronic Fatigue Syndrome when I was 19, and half way through my degree. I was also an elite level sprinter, so the study, the stress and all the other crap just built up and pushed me over the edge. Without going into too much detail, CFS and depression are very closely linked.

Anyhoo, i've dealt with my own demons as well as trying to help my brother out over the years, and I've always had the CFS in the background. The clinical treatment for CFS is anti-depressants, and I've found lexapro to be the best. Zoloft left me like a zombie, and another one, i can't remember its name, made me put on weight.

I can atest to the exercise points already raised. Going from a highly active elite level athlete to being bed riden was the most depressing thing of all. Once i could get out and run again that was great, but I've never been able to return to my pre CFS levels. 

I've been getting pretty good at picking my lows with the CFS, and that leads to a low in my moods 3-4 days after i first identify it. My workplace is pretty good, and supportive, so I can work from home when I need to. If it gets too bad, I take a day off and sleep. 

I apologise if it hasn't made too much sense, but my bro's having a pretty bad night, and I'm dead tired, but I'm trying to make sure he's safe for the night. I've written this over a few hours now. I might tidy it up in the morning.


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## 2020hindsight (19 August 2007)

Sprinter79 said:


> I was also an elite level sprinter, so the study, the stress and all the other crap just built up and pushed me over the edge. Without going into too much detail, CFS and depression are very closely linked....
> 
> I can atest to the exercise points already raised. Going from a highly active elite level athlete to being bed riden was the most depressing thing of all. Once i could get out and run again that was great, but I've never been able to return to my pre CFS levels.
> ...
> I apologise if it hasn't made too much sense..



No need for any apologies m8 - 
Here's Shakespeare again - you at least qualify for the "express" bit  - so you're ahead of most of us here.  


> What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
> how infinite in faculty! *in form and moving how
> express* and admirable!




that man can be the youthful record holder
who makes most dust as up the straight he tearest
perhaps medals are more meaningful and golder
when sportsmen rate as brothers best and fairest 

and praps as legs need oil and heads get older
its hard (three legged race) to beat a mare
praps sometimes carry brothers on your shoulder
you can wear these 'minor' medals - shoulders square. !

again - apologies if this trivialises your predicament - anyway
Sounds like you also qualify for the "best and fairest" 

PS any sprinting or sporting thing is obviously (presumably) a mind game at the best of times (and presumably more so at the worst of times ?) . I wouldn't know - I can never see the winners, because I'm lost in the crowd of also-rans


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## Sprinter79 (19 August 2007)

Hahaah, that is brilliant mate, brilliant.

Made my morning 

Cheers!


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## Bluesky (19 August 2007)

Excellent thread guys.


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## Julia (19 August 2007)

Sprinter, thank you for a really interesting post.  Psychologists and physiologists have for years been suggesting a  link between CFS and depression but there seems to have been a marked resistance amongst CFS sufferers to accept this connection.

I do wish you all the best.  Good onya.

Julia


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## Sprinter79 (19 August 2007)

Julia said:


> Sprinter, thank you for a really interesting post.  Psychologists and physiologists have for years been suggesting a  link between CFS and depression but there seems to have been a marked resistance amongst CFS sufferers to accept this connection.
> 
> I do wish you all the best.  Good onya.
> 
> Julia




Thanks Julia for the kind words 

I personally think the resistance from the sufferers point of view is to do with the stigma associated with depression. There is a massive stigma with CFS, and after having dealt with that, the last thing these people need is have to fight through another stereotype.

Over the years, and I've had CFS for 10 years now, I'm always thinking which came first... Was I depressed cause of all the family **** going down, and it presented with a physical breakdown as opposed to a mental one, OR, did i get depressed because I could no longer do what I could do before I got sick? 

Its hard to explain to people what it's like. I was a highly active 19 year old, I'd just won WA's version of the Stawell Gift and was quite successful at uni. I had a pretty decent social life, but it all came crashing down for whatever reason. And then for people to say its all in your head, you're making it up for attention is very hard to take. It's little wonder that there is that resistance to the link.

Maybe its because I'm an exercise physiologist that I'm more able to accept the link?


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## chops_a_must (19 August 2007)

CanOz said:


> Top quality post Chops.
> 
> One particular item that stands out to me is being able to recognise the symptoms again when they present themselves. To me its like being a place that you didn't like...at all, and you'll never forget the experience.
> 
> Having suffered severe clinical depression in the past i can relate somewhat, however i do realise that your case seems more severe than anything i experienced for sure. Interesting too what you say about the physical side of it, as i was nearly cripled by the back pain associated.




Thanks so much for the empathy, and please accept mine in return.

I don't mean to be preachy, but I think human touch is the most underestimated form of healing. I would hazard a guess, and you dont have to say yes or no, but the pain was probably in the upper of the middle back and upper back leading to soulders and neck. 

If you are still having dips into depression, try actually getting some physical work done. After all, you are in the land that specialises in this!!  Acupuncture is fantastic for these treatments! Even when clients present to me in a "depressed" state (I wont write that of course), I generally do gentle but effective forms of massage on their shoulders, upper back and neck. It's often enough to start them progressing.

Another thing you can do when feeling this way ( I use my massage table). Is to lie on a bed, or a table with your arms outstretched over the ends. It forces your slumped shoulders back, opens your chest and takes the pressure off your upper back.

Hope this has been of some help.

Cheers,
Chops.


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## 2020hindsight (19 August 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Acupuncture is fantastic for these treatments!



and whatever else you can say about acupuncture, you can't say it's pointless


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## chops_a_must (19 August 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> and whatever else you can say about acupuncture, you can't say it's pointless




Ahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahhahahaha! 

Mate, you have to write a book or something...


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## 2020hindsight (19 August 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Mate, you have to write a book or something...




m8 - when you've been around as long as I have, all your jokes are so old that you can pretend that they're coming into fashion again - 
have a good one - here's luck for this week - en garde , market !!






PS At the moment I'm not having depression - but I sure as hell regret some of my trades, - and I guess that means I'm experiencing regression? adios amigos


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## Julia (20 August 2007)

The following paragraph appears in a novel I'm reading at present.  It offers a reflection on the current determination to have lots of people making the drug companies rich.

"But that was before the world changed on September 11.  Now anything that could be blown up seemed as though it might get blown up.  The whole country had come down with a bad case of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Bad for us.  Good for Eli Lilly and Pfizer and Merck.  Eventually, they'd put Prozac and Zoloft and Paxil in the drinking water, see whether that kept the anxiety at bay.  Because nobody really wanted to figure out anything anymore, not when the knots in the world's psyche had gotten so tight that untying them might mean unraveling a preconception or two.  Better to keep the serotonin flowing, bathe our brains in the calm water of denial."


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## Happy (21 August 2007)

Well, almost confirms that we should remove cause, not just treat symptoms.


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## 2020hindsight (21 August 2007)

Julia said:


> ....... Eventually, they'd put Prozac and Zoloft and Paxil in the drinking water, see whether that kept the anxiety at bay.



hey Julia, does that go for the cat's drinking water as well ?


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2008)

Repost of #67...

Found a quote on http://www.wisdomquotes.com


> "The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy, amidst the simple beauty of nature...."




If I tell you the author I think it will mean more....(Anne Frank) 

I post it here, beside the humourous one below.  Hopefully, with a combination of humour and "seeing the important stuff through the other stuff" ,  we can all end up seeing this thing through.  

Personally I took a screen shot today at the very lowest point (about 10.30am) of my now-pathetic portfolio lol,  just to be able to have evidence to show myself later - "hey you survived even that" ... 

or as Buddha would say "This too shall pass"


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## Happy (7 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Repost of #67...
> 
> Personally I took a screen shot today at the very lowest point (about 10.30am) of my now-pathetic portfolio lol,  just to be able to have evidence to show myself later - "hey you survived even that" ...





In 6 to 8 weeks time you’ll have a look at that screenshot again and you’ll say yourself: it wasn’t that bad then.


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## Glen48 (7 October 2008)

When things go bad people buy Drugs, Grog and turn to Gambling.
After reading this post I have decided to buy share in Anti D companies I feel better now.
I sold my house to avoid the crash and am now fighting fire ans thinking how good it was in the frying pan.
Can some one tell me what will happen in the morning so i can get a good nights sleep?


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2008)

Happy said:


> In 6 to 8 weeks time you’ll have a look at that screenshot again and you’ll say yourself: it wasn’t that bad then.




fair enuf Happy, you could well be right lol 

but in that case, I'll take another screen shot - And I'll reminisce(one day) 
..."hey I survived even THAT  "


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## nioka (7 October 2008)

Glen48 said:


> Can some one tell me what will happen in the morning so i can get a good nights sleep?



You will wake up in the morning and it will be the first day of the rest of your life.  DON"T WASTE A MINUTE OF IT.


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## CoffeeKing (7 October 2008)

Glen48 said:


> Can some one tell me what will happen in the morning so i can get a good nights sleep?




That depends on where you live, what is the first thing you think of after waking up and which side of the bed you get out of...
My beds against the wall so I can only get out on the good side  LOL


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## Muschu (10 October 2008)

A couple of comments, for what they're worth, from an ex-psychologist who has, like everyone, experienced life issues.
Depression is a very serious issue and Julia's description apt.  
There are many people seriously troubled and/or in trouble because of the current economic situation.  Some of these may well suffer from what Julia called reactive [or exogenous] depression.  Some may even develop an endogenous [clinical] condition as a result.  Neither of these should ever be taken lightly.  I am not qualified to comment on the medication issue other than to say that medication has proven to be a great aid to many and that it can be a challenge to "fit" the medication to a particular patient and condition.
I see a reactive depression to the market downturn as a step more serious than the "grief" that is associated with loss. In this case the grief is over a dollar loss of course - but this can be tied to issues of percieved failure to provide family security for example.  Grief is a very normal condition - very normal.  But this and reactive depression are, most commonly, temporary.  
However, whatever form it takes, grief and depression benefit from openness with trusted others - whether this be family, societal support groups or individual professionals.
There is an aspect to this forum that I think may be unhelpful.  The vast majority of us are here to share and learn.  It is my opinion that there are a few contributors who regularly promote themselves as teachers / experts with an element of gloating of their success and demonstrated capacity to do better than others.  For these few ASF almost seems a competitive site and an outlet what is possibly insecurity.
This unhelpfulness, this "I told you so" mentality is not productive and I would hope it dissipates.  
I suspect there are many on this forum who are in legitimate grief or in a reactive depression - and they have every right to be.
If you are in this situation I suggest you don't bottle up your feelings but seek support from the people or organisations most suitable for your situation.
Best wishes

Rick


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## Julia (10 October 2008)

Rick, thanks for a timely and very appropriate post.   I share your concern about the people on this forum who seem to be celebrating current events.

To those people could I suggest perhaps just tempering your comments in the light of all the less financially sophisticated people who will be in complete despair about the destruction of their retirement plans, or those who have regarded the share market as the best place to hold their funds whilst saving for a deposit on a home.

If this continues, companies will fail and jobs will be lost.  Human misery will be experienced at levels not seen for many decades.   

Let's try to be just a bit supportive of one another instead of crowing about how smart we are.


----------



## chops_a_must (10 October 2008)

Julia said:


> Rick, thanks for a timely and very appropriate post.   I share your concern about the people on this forum who seem to be celebrating current events.
> 
> If this continues, companies will fail and jobs will be lost.  Human misery will be experienced at levels not seen for many decades.



I don't think anyone is celebrating these events Julia.

Most are fully aware of the reality of the direness of this situation.


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## Whiskers (10 October 2008)

Julia said:


> Rick, thanks for a timely and very appropriate post.   I share your concern about the people on this forum who seem to be celebrating current events.
> 
> To those people could I suggest perhaps just tempering your comments in the light of all the less financially sophisticated people who will be in complete despair about the destruction of their retirement plans, or those who have regarded the share market as the best place to hold their funds whilst saving for a deposit on a home.
> 
> ...




Yes, I agree here Rick and Julia.

It's an unhealthy, even morbit sense of vengeance that some are perpetuating.

The simple truth is that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because a relative few unethical people and illegal activity drove the markets a bit high, justice doesn't equate to irrational hysteria to drive the market down to punish and pay back the few that led the scandal and the whole of society in the process.

Remember you all have parents, brothers, sisters and children, some of which might just get tipped over the edge by just the sort of hopelesness, fear and panic that some of you are advocating or perpetuating.


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## Calliope (11 October 2008)

All the recent dismal talk about the sky falling reminded me of one of my favourite headlines which I saw in the local paper a few years ago.

The story was about some layers of the atmosphere which measurements had shown were closing in on the earth. The headline said;


CHICKEN LITTLE VINDICATED


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## agro (11 October 2008)

i am depressed with what's going on atm,

i have never felt so insecure in my life before

and i am almost 60


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 October 2008)

I was in my barber's the other day, he is a bit of an intellectual. I was reading a magazine , I think it was a science magazine, New Science or something, anyway it had an article in it that said that the more psychiatrists and counsellors there are in an area the more that people suicide.

So maybe the posters who say "s**t happens and just get on with it are better off in a situation like that. 

Suicide and depression was low in England during World War 2. 

Losing all your dough is not depression.

Its losing all your dough.

Tell a bloke he should be depressed and send him to a trickcyclist and he'll start believing he is depressed. 

Someone who tops himself or herself because they have lost all their money is not depressed. He or she has lost all their money and can't bear the shame or the poverty or cannot see other riches apart from money or wealth or prestige.

The same day I was in the chemists and i was sat in a chair waiting for the chemist to do whatever they do for 10 minutes while they get a packet down from the shelf. I was sat in a chair and couldn't help overhearing the chemist giving out the dope to people and every second bugger was on an antidepressant.

They should have a bus outside chemists that take them to see the sea, or a mountain or a flower, or a concert rather than all this talk about depression.

gg


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## CAB SAV (11 October 2008)

agro said:


> i am depressed with what's going on atm,
> 
> i have never felt so insecure in my life before
> 
> and i am almost 60




Gutsy, keep your chin up & don't look for a quick solution through the market,let it flow, but be assured it will recover. 
I'm going out for tea for my best mate's birthday tonight, he his down a fair bit in the market and i know he is depressed but he nearly got killed last week in a fire and feels better in the sense that family & close friends rallied around him and thats what counts.


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## agro (11 October 2008)

CAB SAV said:


> Gutsy, keep your chin up & don't look for a quick solution through the market,let it flow, but be assured it will recover.
> I'm going out for tea for my best mate's birthday tonight, he his down a fair bit in the market and i know he is depressed but he nearly got killed last week in a fire and feels better in the sense that family & close friends rallied around him and thats what counts.




true

i am very thankful that i am still alive and have not been struck by cancer or the alike


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## Aussiejeff (11 October 2008)

agro said:


> true
> 
> i am very thankful that i am still alive and have not been struck by cancer or the alike




Mate, I am 57 and have suffered bouts of depression since 1981 when my paternal grandfather died from prostate cancer. My paternal grandmother died next year 1982. My uncle died in 1983 from lung cancer aged 59, my dad died in 1985 at the age of 65 from multiple myeloma. The depression took the form of mood swings and bouts of fatigue which I totally ignored.

Then I had a reasonable few years when my family weren't dying. I wasn't too depressed then as I remember.

My mum died in 2004 from oesophegal cancer, my favorite auntie in 2005 from stomach cancer and my best mates father (like an uncle) shortly after in the same year from liver cancer. The depression after the last of those three deaths in quick succession saw me in hospital a few times with panic attacks, muscle spasm, all sort of weird stuff happening. Bad dark mood swings (not violent - just in my own little silent world) and various unnaccountable health issues have lead me to be placed initially on Epilem (not so good for mee - gave me tremors) and now onto a trial of Zoloft 50mg by my new doctor.

Hopefully they work! Seem ok so far. They must be ok since I am cracking the odd funny in the middle of the Worst Financial Crisis In Living Memory! 

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this in here to let you and others know it's ok to talk about it. We are all in this big rocking boat together.

Cheers, mate.


aj


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## 2020hindsight (11 October 2008)

sorry if this is seen as irreverent ...

but the old story of the bloke who goes to the shrink, who talks to him for a while.   Then announces , "I'm sorry but I've concluded you're crazy"...

Bloke says "I want a second opinion!"

"Ok" says the shrink,  "you're ugly too" 

PS Was listening to the radio today ... "I was born under a wandering star" ...  (Lee Marvin).  Anyway there's one line there ...

"I can't remember a scene that didn't look better looking back "....

And I thought to myself  .. THAT's how I plan to feel about the last week on the market lol.


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## Julia (11 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I was in my barber's the other day, he is a bit of an intellectual. I was reading a magazine , I think it was a science magazine, New Science or something, anyway it had an article in it that said that the more psychiatrists and counsellors there are in an area the more that people suicide.
> 
> So maybe the posters who say "s**t happens and just get on with it are better off in a situation like that.



I know what you mean, GG, but it might be a bit simplistic for people with a genuine biological depression.   I have a friend who is bipolar, feels fine with medication but hates the side effects.  So she goes off it.  Fine for a few days and then she just falls apart.  Can't do anything.  Reluctantly returns to the medication and is "normal" again in about five days.
I've never felt this level of despair, despite experiencing extreme grief and sadness as a result of some of life's events.  But I think that's different from the biological depression described above, and it probably only exacerbates that sort of depression to say "oh hell, just move on".

For those people who are feeling depressed as a result of market losses, surely that's a very normal and reasonable reaction.  When we are in such a mess as we are now, with the people running the show apparently devoid of any idea as to how to fix the problem, it would be odd not to be upset and anxious.   It's hard to throw one's thoughts forward to the time when inevitably there will be a recovery, especially as Agro says, when he is nearly 60.   Really hard.





> Suicide and depression was low in England during World War 2.



Yes, that's quite true.  In fact I don't think the word "depression" was even around then, in anything other than the financial sense.   It has become part of our common language these days to the extent where normal human sadness is being pathologised and treated as an illness.  I guess it's hard for GP's (which is often where the prescribing occurs) in their brief consultations to sort out the biological/endogenous from the normal reactive state.

I've also sometimes wondered if the reduction in the suicide rate during WWII had something to do with a nation, Great Britan, banding together against an enemy.   That is a very different phenomenon from the personal wealth loss we are seeing at present.  Leadership may also have something to do with it.
Churchill had the capacity to rally his people, whereas all of our world at present lacks any sort of coherent or believable leadership.





> Losing all your dough is not depression.



I don't know about that.   As above, depends how you define depression.
I think for most people, especially if they are not young, it's a terrible shock.
Poverty is dreadful.







> Tell a bloke he should be depressed and send him to a trickcyclist and he'll start believing he is depressed.



There's something in that.   We have developed a culture of depression and have been encouraged to view every somewhat flattened mood (which everyone experiences from time to time) as significant pathology which requires treatment.





> Someone who tops himself or herself because they have lost all their money is not depressed. He or she has lost all their money and can't bear the shame or the poverty or cannot see other riches apart from money or wealth or prestige.



Hard to be categorical about this.   For someone who had other issues, impending poverty could be the last straw.  I doubt very much it would be about prestige.





> The same day I was in the chemists and i was sat in a chair waiting for the chemist to do whatever they do for 10 minutes while they get a packet down from the shelf. I was sat in a chair and couldn't help overhearing the chemist giving out the dope to people and every second bugger was on an antidepressant.



Agreed.   I'd prefer to see people referred to a psychologist or counsellor to learn some coping techniques rather than endlessly viewing a solution as something that comes in pill form.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 October 2008)

Thanks Julia,

I accept your points.

Sadness is not depression.

People topping themselves in adversity is not an illness in my way of seeing things.

Calling it an illness is like the godbotherers calling it a sin.

gg


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## Muschu (12 October 2008)

Very well put Julia and accepted GG.

Sadness, in my opinion, is akin to grief.  It is serious at the time but tends to diminish.

Clinical depression is not resolved by having a lamb roast with Tom Cruise and watching the sun go down over Scientology HQ.  It can be very resilient and remove enjoyment of life. Sufferers need support in a form that suits their circumstances.

In my view depression can be latent and apprear as post-traumatic stress [PTSD].  My father-in-law was trapped behind Japanese lines in Singapore during WW2.  He escaped, never spoke about his experiences, much later developed depression and carried PTSD to his grave.  He never sought support - like many of his generation.
A friend who was seriously injured in Vietnam developed mental reactions 25 years after his service.  With support he is now very well.

I hope you all have a pleasant Sunday.  

Best wishes

Rick


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## SirRumpole (21 March 2018)

A man who has everything he could reasonably expect still suffers from depression.

Go figure...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-21/james-packer-resigns-from-crown-resorts/9570344


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## Gringotts Bank (21 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A man who has everything he could reasonably expect still suffers from depression.
> 
> Go figure...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-21/james-packer-resigns-from-crown-resorts/9570344




Clearly he _doesn't_ have everything.


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## Knobby22 (21 March 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Clearly he _doesn't_ have everything.



He has made some terrible mistakes and lost a fortune. His ego is hurting, he isn't matching up to his Dad. I feel for him.


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## SirRumpole (21 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> He has made some terrible mistakes and lost a fortune. His ego is hurting, he isn't matching up to his Dad. I feel for him.




He's still worth $4 billion.

He got into the wrong business pandering to a few high wealth gamblers and hanging out with politicians.

If he ran a media business or anything that did something useful then it might give him more satisfaction and less stress.


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## CanOz (21 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A man who has everything he could reasonably expect still suffers from depression.
> 
> Go figure...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-21/james-packer-resigns-from-crown-resorts/9570344




Depression is beyond being about having everything....


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## Gringotts Bank (21 March 2018)

CanOz said:


> Depression is beyond being about having everything....



Depression is caused by unrelenting anxiety.  Anxiety is the persistent wanting of something one does not have.  To simplify, depression is caused by excessive wanting.

The mind is capable of locking onto an external 'object' of desire (like money, relationships or fame... or even say the well-being of others or world peace) and wanting it to the point of sickness.  If it gets what it wants, then you risk addiction - it all depends on the degree of wanting.  Unrelenting anxiety can't be handled by the brain for very long before it shuts down to preserve the system (shut down = depression).

It is possible (but difficult) to have very little and want for nothing, and therefore be happy.  You can still see this happening in some parts of south east Asia or the Pacific Islands.  On the other hand you can own a superyacht and be depressed that your father never loved you, like James.  It's the persistent wanting that causes all the problems.


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2018)

Depression can also result from accumulated loss. We are expected to get back up after life events knock us down. Some do, some don't. Certainly dwelling on loss is not a way out of the tunnel.


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## Gringotts Bank (21 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Depression can also result from accumulated loss. We are expected to get back up after life events knock us down. Some do, some don't. Certainly dwelling on loss is not a way out of the tunnel.




Yes but loss = wanting.

Whether loss makes you sick or not depends entirely on the degree of mental attachment to something you no longer have.  The reptilian brain is designed to release massive bursts of cortisol when you lose, and cortisol feels hideous.  So you have to make the brain do something which isn't entirely natural ... stop grasping.  Either that or start winning again, and win in a hurry.  I remember in the '87 crash people were jumping out of buildings; but equally there would have been those who weren't too fussed.


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## moXJO (21 March 2018)

His old man was real hard on him as a kid.  He was always living in that shadow. Rich or poor- fathers failing their sons lead to long term damage.


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2018)

Maybe you should understand cortisol better. Try this site below and/or take a psychology doctorate.

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/the-role-of-cortisol-in-the-body


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2018)

Sometimes people just want to be a nobody.


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## sptrawler (24 March 2018)

I think a lot of depression is brought about, because people have self made expectations and expectations placed on them by others, that is why it is important to remember old phrases.
They were designed to be short, to the point and easy to remember, because when they were phrased, not many could read and write. eg
Treat others, as you would like to be treated.
Everyone knows something, you don't, you just have to listen.
You have two ears and one mouth, use them accordingly.
If you have given it your all, you can't blame yourself for failure, it just wasn't your bag.

The problem today is, everyone is a genius on social media and can't wait to tell you.
Mr and Missus "Joe average" gets a job on morning T.V, all of a sudden they know everything, and have a captive audience to tell it to.
We are way too open to what other people have to say, and seem to take it on board, whether it is right or wrong.
People who have stuffed their live's completely, may well be giving advice on social media.
You don't have to make every post a winner, being conservative might not win every day, but at least you have something left if it all turns to $hit.
I've walked a very conservative path, always worked for wages, never got a 10 bagger, but I'm comfortable.
Allow for the worst, hope for the best, is my motto. I don't expect any handouts, that way you don't get disappointed.


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## sptrawler (24 March 2018)

If I had my way, facebook would be shut down tomorrow. Just my opinion, but I can't see any value in it.
My guess is most people suffer a degree of depression, it is just some don't seem to have the ability to put it to the back of their mind.
I know I do, I've had some terrible things happen, but even though I tear up occasionally, I know folding won't help.


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## Smurf1976 (24 March 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yes but loss = wanting.
> 
> Whether loss makes you sick or not depends entirely on the degree of mental attachment to something you no longer have.




Surrounding circumstances and a sense of justice plays a big role there too.

A loss due to natural or otherwise unavoidable circumstances is one thing.

Being a victim of some sort of injustice, either perceived or real, is entirely different and especially so if whatever is lost is something that matters.


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## explod (24 March 2018)

Interesting thread.  My Dad lost his Mother to suicide when he was 14 and became very subdued.  When 20 doctor advised his father to take him to the pub for a few beers to loosen him up.  They lived on a remote farm and he toiled hard.  At 24 joined the air force and served in ww2. Was in a nasty crash and just after I was conceived was discharged.  1945. We later settled on a farm,  i was the eldest and 7 further siblings arrived later.  We lived in a hut for a start,  no phone,  power,  hot water or washing machine.  Dad became upset often and abused Mum often and would shoot through to the pup.  Often remember her at the table sobbing into her hands. She'd been a city girl.  I tended to help my younger siblings without thinking much about anything else.  My next Brother (who died four years ago and I miss)  would cling to Dad's legs mostly crying.   My next Brother was subdued,  but often very ill with asthma would try to help also.   In the hut we three slept together with Brother two in the middle,  he would wet the bed most nights,  over myself and then brother 3.   I could write 1000's of words on how bad my childhood was but I pushed it aside and rose an optimist who did well in managing people.   However I lacked self confidence which became very destructive later in life. 

When I view others I see nothing in some and empathy to others.  I think we can only really feel the bumps in a road we have ourselves travelled.   I have pondered opening up for some time but suddenly tonight felt a need to share it here.  Too much for now, its cot time but will hit with the horrors of my police career and failed first marriage in the next day or so.


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## Gringotts Bank (24 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> Surrounding circumstances and a sense of justice plays a big role there too.
> 
> A loss due to natural or otherwise unavoidable circumstances is one thing.
> 
> Being a victim of some sort of injustice, either perceived or real, is entirely different and especially so if whatever is lost is something that matters.




If there's injustice, then there's a desire for justice or retribution.  If there's something lost, then there's a desire for its return.  _Every_ single human problem can be defined in terms of thwarted desire or more specifically, the clinging/yearning it tends to create.  Why define human suffering in terms of clinging/yearning?  Because a precise definition of suffering allows the possibility of a solution.

Clinging/wanting/yearning is what creates anxiety, and anxiety is what creates depression.  Both are suffering.  It doesn't matter if you yearn for world peace, the well being of others of a huge pile of cash - it's all suffering and all feels the same.  It's damaging.

There's only two approaches - 1] get what you want (or at least enough to maintain your chemical balance of neurotransmitters), or 2] do something to the mind to prevent clinging/yearning.  The second option generally involves spiritual techniques which I don't think anyone is interested in.  Sometimes it can be achieved with distraction, but that's always problematic.  There's nothing new in any of this, but clarity is essential.  No topic is more important to understand than human suffering because it happens to everyone to some degree or other.


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## Wysiwyg (25 March 2018)

explod said:


> I think we can only really feel the bumps in a road we have ourselves travelled.



Your story will help others feel not alone with their own dealings. Onlookers can empathise, try to examine ones head and postulate reasons why but only the individual knows the truth. Let it be,  let it be, there will be an answer, let it be.


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## basilio (30 March 2018)

Perhaps a joke on depression ?


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Perhaps a joke on depression ?





Some good chemistry there.


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## basilio (23 December 2020)

This story might not seem to fit the thread but in fact the relentless searching for lost objects, communicating with people, exercise and achievement seem to be a very therapeutic fit for  Tim.


*Tim started tinkering with a metal detector two years ago, now he specialises in finding 'lost treasures'*
By Megan Macdonald
Posted  1hhour ago, updated 29mminutes ago





 Tim Chandler's hobby quickly bloomed into an obsession.(ABC News: Megan Macdonald)









						Tim started tinkering with a metal detector two years ago, now he specialises in finding 'lost treasures'
					

When residents of a Tasmanian beachside suburb lose precious items in the sand, they often turn to metal detector enthusiast Tim Chandler for help.




					www.abc.net.au


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