# WAM - WAM Capital



## System (1 April 2012)

WAM Capital Limited (WAM) is an investor in listed Australian equities. WAM concentrates mostly on small to medium industrial companies and the portfolio is managed by Wilson Asset Management (International) Pty Ltd.

http://wamfunds.com.au//WAM-Capital/Tabs/WAM-Tab-Overview.aspx


----------



## jono64a (3 September 2013)

System said:


> WAM Capital Limited (WAM) is an investor in listed Australian equities. WAM concentrates mostly on small to medium industrial companies and the portfolio is managed by Wilson Asset Management (International) Pty Ltd.
> 
> http://wamfunds.com.au//WAM-Capital/Tabs/WAM-Tab-Overview.aspx




Very good performance, but you pay for this with 1% p.a. plus performance fees. This would have been money well spent not too long ago, but recently its share price has overtaken NTA.


----------



## piggybank (23 December 2013)

P&F daily...


----------



## waimate01 (24 December 2013)

Just be aware with WAM that when you read their reports which show their impressive outperformance, that this is outperformance you do not see. They've got lovely tables that show how much they exceed the market, month after month, year after year. But that is before everything. Your return will be much less, and much more like the market. 

What WAM does achieve is an impressive franked dividend, and that's nice. But when you see their figures, just remember they have very little to do with you.


----------



## GlobeTrekker (9 March 2015)

Can anyone tell me why WAM, an LIC with 48% of its gross assets sitting in cash & fixed interest (over $300m) needs to undertake a new capital raising via SPP and placement to "provide WAM with additional funds to invest in the stockmarket as opportunities present themselves"?  Why not just invest the considerable cash reserves that it is already sitting on (and has been for some time)?  It has been bugging me that they're charging 1% on Gross Assets when they hold so much cash, and now they're raising more?


----------



## pinkboy (11 March 2015)

GlobeTrekker said:


> Can anyone tell me why WAM, an LIC with 48% of its gross assets sitting in cash & fixed interest (over $300m) needs to undertake a new capital raising via SPP and placement to "provide WAM with additional funds to invest in the stockmarket as opportunities present themselves"?  Why not just invest the considerable cash reserves that it is already sitting on (and has been for some time)?  It has been bugging me that they're charging 1% on Gross Assets when they hold so much cash, and now they're raising more?




Looks like WAM invested a lot more into the market this month reading their NTA report.  Most likely due to the anticipated $190mil injection from the SSP.

Their NTA is also rapidly catching the SP in recent months.  Perhaps parity soon and be not a bad buy with a current 6.8% FF yield and 2.5% discount in DRP.


pinkboy


----------



## GlobeTrekker (11 March 2015)

pinkboy said:


> Looks like WAM invested a lot more into the market this month reading their NTA report.  Most likely due to the anticipated $190mil injection from the SSP.
> 
> Their NTA is also rapidly catching the SP in recent months.  Perhaps parity soon and be not a bad buy with a current 6.8% FF yield and 2.5% discount in DRP.
> 
> ...



Yes, looks like you're right pinkboy, they spent up big in February.  They bought quite a bit of HHV (their top holding now) which is an LIC that has done very well lately and still trading at a fairly decent discount.  Interesting that their top 2 holdings are LICs.

I thought WAM was trading at too high a premium for a while there to be good value but their price has come back a bit since the SPP & placement even though NTA went up by a reasonable amount.  While the SPP & placement at $1.90 may've led to a drop in share price, its probably had a marginally positive effect on NTA.  Certainly worth a look if that premium drops further.


----------



## waimate01 (13 March 2015)

GlobeTrekker said:


> Can anyone tell me why WAM, an LIC with 48% of its gross assets sitting in cash & fixed interest (over $300m) needs to undertake a new capital raising via SPP and placement to "provide WAM with additional funds to invest in the stockmarket as opportunities present themselves"?  Why not just invest the considerable cash reserves that it is already sitting on (and has been for some time)?  It has been bugging me that they're charging 1% on Gross Assets when they hold so much cash, and now they're raising more?




It's all about making Geoff Wilson wealthier.  Not that I necessarily have a problem with that - Geoff seems like a lovely bloke who pays a very nice franked dividend.


----------



## pinkboy (27 March 2015)

waimate01 said:


> It's all about making Geoff Wilson wealthier.  Not that I necessarily have a problem with that - Geoff seems like a lovely bloke who pays a very nice franked dividend.




Certainly.  Purchased a bit below and a bit above 2 pesos.  With it still trading cum dividend, quite possibly top up even more in the next month or so.

Market cap @ $900mil is starting to look like a big boy. 

pinkboy


----------



## Muschu (23 May 2015)

Marcus Padley gave this quite a wrap in my local paper today..... Certainly a good yield.  I'd never heard of WAM.

Anyone interested in this company?  

(I'm pretty much retired and becoming more conservative .... And probably over-invested in the banks.... I also hold ARG, AFI and TLS).

Your thoughts are very welcome.


----------



## qldfrog (24 May 2015)

Got some around 2$ went down to 1.9 
now rising again so no loss here but a bit puzzled by the share price:
was not following the rises of the ASX which was unexpectedL
I was expecting some correlation even with a defensive bias.
Handled the last weeks fall very well
Anyway, on paper very nice so I hold and keep holding


----------



## Miner (25 May 2015)

Muschu said:


> Marcus Padley gave this quite a wrap in my local paper today..... Certainly a good yield.  I'd never heard of WAM.
> 
> Anyone interested in this company?
> 
> ...




Motley Food recommended it. I bought but lost patience and sold it off. Probably mistake. It has decreased by 2 % over one year but has the potential. All Wilson scrips are pretty good and per Motley, this is the best one.It has 6.94% yield
But DYOR. Motley often canvases some scrips where they hold personally.


----------



## pinkboy (25 May 2015)

Personally I hold as well.  With a market cap approaching $1bil, and a current yield of 7% FF, it is not a small LIC anymore.

My portfolio is made up of ASX Top 50, plus WAM as my Midcap coverage.

Again, as I learn more, and evolve my strategy, I feel I will move away from individual stocks in time and DCA into more LICs and ETFs.  Still trading slightly above NTA, but the gap is closing.  Very interested to see how it has fared over May.


pinkboy


----------



## Muschu (25 May 2015)

pinkboy said:


> ......
> Again, as I learn more, and evolve my strategy, I feel I will move away from individual stocks in time and DCA into more LICs and ETFs.  Still trading slightly above NTA, but the gap is closing.  Very interested to see how it has fared over May.
> 
> pinkboy




Many thanks for this and the other replies.  It is the case that the current price is very close to that of 12 months ago, although there was a high of $2.11 over that period.

I am very interested in your comment, PB, into LICs and ETFs.  [What does DCA stand for?]

I am pretty much retired and hold AFI and ARG.  Beyond that I hold traditional stocks such as the banks, TLS, WES and the like.

But I do like the thought of moving away from individual stocks!!  [At my age ......]  

Any further comment or elaboration welcome.

Regards

Rick


----------



## pinkboy (25 May 2015)

Muschu said:


> Many thanks for this and the other replies.  It is the case that the current price is very close to that of 12 months ago, although there was a high of $2.11 over that period.
> 
> I am very interested in your comment, PB, into LICs and ETFs.  [What does DCA stand for?]
> 
> ...




DCA is Dollar Cost Averaging.  It just means punching in regular amount over a long period regardless of price, and reinvesting all dividends.  WAM also gives a decent 2.5% discount in its DRP.

I hold 12 other top 50 stocks all 100% FF, but I would like to revise my strategy and perhaps only hold ETFs and LICs.  WAM looks after the midcap market, whereas AFI/ARG/MLT looks after the top end of town.

Another LIC Im watching closely is CDM, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.


pinkboy


----------



## Muschu (25 May 2015)

pinkboy said:


> DCA is Dollar Cost Averaging.  It just means punching in regular amount over a long period regardless of price, and reinvesting all dividends.  WAM also gives a decent 2.5% discount in its DRP.
> 
> I hold 12 other top 50 stocks all 100% FF, but I would like to revise my strategy and perhaps only hold ETFs and LICs.  WAM looks after the midcap market, whereas AFI/ARG/MLT looks after the top end of town.
> 
> ...




Thanks PB.  Yes I do know dollar cost averaging but didn't recognise the acronym.  This is not a strategy that I want to use - and is one I consider too risky - not wanting to take a chance on following a company into oblivion. 

However I will investigate the LICs, and WAM especially.  WAM seeks to have broken a little higher recently but I haven't checked the momentum.

Many thanks


----------



## qldfrog (25 May 2015)

Muschu said:


> Thanks PB.  Yes I do know dollar cost averaging but didn't recognise the acronym.  This is not a strategy that I want to use - and is one I consider too risky - not wanting to take a chance on following a company into oblivion.



As I understand from the thread, pinkboy is using DCA on ETF and LICS, not individual stock so highly reducing the risk you mention.Probably a strategy I should consider too


----------



## GlobeTrekker (31 May 2015)

I've switched from holding individual stocks to exclusively holding LICs.  I like the diversification they offer and if you time it right, you can pick them up at a decent discount to NTA, which is where LICs can have an advantage over ETFs (which pretty much stay at their NTA).  I switched when I found I didn't have enough time to do lots of research into individual stocks, though that said I still spend a fair bit of time researching each LIC, what it holds, its premium/discount history etc.  I'm holding a bit of WAM (and its cousin WAX) and CDM, they used to trade at a fair premium, though this has come back a bit for WAM, and CDM now seems to be trading at a slight discount so they're starting to look like better value.  CDM holds some international shares as well as Aussie.  There are also quite a few other LICs that hold mostly international shares if you want a bit more diversification away from Aussie shares (PMC, TGG, MFF, HHV, PGF are the bigger ones).  CTN is an LIC that specialises in smaller companies if you want a bit more diversification in Aussie shares, there are a few others that do this.

Muschu, if you're holding AFI and ARG then you probably don't need to hold additional individual bank shares, as they each hold a fair chunk of the big 4 in their holdings.  ARG currently has around 22% of its holdings in the big 4 banks and AFI has over 30% in the big 4. They each hold a fair bit of Telstra too.


----------



## Muschu (17 August 2015)

I see WAM announced their results and dividend today.  Both appear UP but the market reaction minimal. I know the liquidity is low but wondering if there is an opportunity.
Any thoughts from the more knowledgeable? 
Many thanks


----------



## Muschu (17 August 2015)

Muschu said:


> I see WAM announced their results and dividend today.  Both appear UP but the market reaction minimal. I know the liquidity is low but wondering if there is an opportunity.
> Any thoughts from the more knowledgeable?
> Many thanks




Think I got this wrong!  Profit down due to increased management costs / fees but dividend up?


----------



## WRiley (16 December 2016)

WAM is now near an all-time high, circa 2.40. Rate hike did not seem to have affected it !

http://wilsonassetmanagement.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/5.-WAMNTA-November-16-1.pdf

But Gross Assets seemed to have dipped compared to October 2016, highly because of the Fixed Interest and Cash position. Anybody knows its loan numbers, eg total liabilities, debt-to-equity ratio, etc ??


----------



## WRiley (20 December 2016)

Mkt is running up in spite of anything negative happening in the world, BUT WAM seems to stay at 2.40. ... If WAM mirrors the All Ords, the SP should be going up too,... why is this not happening ?


----------



## McLovin (20 December 2016)

WRiley said:


> Mkt is running up in spite of anything negative happening in the world, BUT WAM seems to stay at 2.40. ... If WAM mirrors the All Ords, the SP should be going up too,... why is this not happening ?




It doesn't mirror the All Ords, it benchmarks to it. If you have a look at the WAM portfolio it's very much mid/small cap weighted. And they have been getting pummelled of late.


----------



## WRiley (20 December 2016)

McLovin said:


> It doesn't mirror the All Ords, it benchmarks to it. If you have a look at the WAM portfolio it's very much mid/small cap weighted. And they have been getting pummelled of late.




Tq McLovin for the clarification,... are the mid/small caps being affected badly by events unfolding in the US ? Any opinions of when a turnaround will take place ?


----------



## Junior (21 December 2016)

WRiley said:


> Tq McLovin for the clarification,... are the mid/small caps being affected badly by events unfolding in the US ? Any opinions of when a turnaround will take place ?




Small caps have had an awesome run for the past year until a couple months ago, now seeing funds move out of small caps and into large caps.


----------



## WRiley (21 December 2016)

Junior said:


> Small caps have had an awesome run for the past year until a couple months ago, now seeing funds move out of small caps and into large caps.
> 
> View attachment 69154




Tq Junior,... funds could be shifting their strategy and their allocation because of the improving sentiment. Large caps should run-up first when the economy picks up ! So,... time to pick-up some good small caps now ??


----------



## Tightwad (22 December 2016)

i've topped up my small cap fund and i'm still looking at some small caps, i'm willing to wait it out - can't get too excited about most large caps.  eventually things should swing back, have seen comments from fund managers indicating the same


----------



## WRiley (22 December 2016)

Tightwad said:


> i've topped up my small cap fund and i'm still looking at some small caps, i'm willing to wait it out - can't get too excited about most large caps.  eventually things should swing back, have seen comments from fund managers indicating the same




Tq Tightward. What index(indices) do you use to view the performance of the Small Caps and Mid Caps ?


----------



## Tightwad (23 December 2016)

the midcap 50 and small ordinaries here should cover it http://www.asx.com.au/products/index-charts.htm


----------



## Iggy_Pop (12 February 2017)

After following WAM for a few years, decided to buy a parcel. Have been waiting for a dip but does not happen much. Thought owning some will give access to any SPP which seem to happen most years. I am after dividends as I get closer to retirement as part of  my retirement plan. Already own a few LICs with large Cap shares and was after some in the mid to small cap area and WAM seems to be the pick despite higher management fees than others. Have been looking at MIR as well but have not bought any.

Iggy


----------



## Tightwad (13 February 2017)

i picked up a few after a dip a while ago and i'm up about 12%, better than my small cap fund.  pretty confident with them, i like what i see in the media and they put out some good info.  they have a lot of holdings i like and some that i wouldn't have the confidence to buy myself.


----------



## WRiley (13 February 2017)

Tightwad said:


> the midcap 50 and small ordinaries here should cover it http://www.asx.com.au/products/index-charts.htm



Tq Tightwad, a very useful site here !


----------



## WRiley (13 February 2017)

Iggy_Pop said:


> After following WAM for a few years, decided to buy a parcel. Have been waiting for a dip but does not happen much. Thought owning some will give access to any SPP which seem to happen most years. I am after dividends as I get closer to retirement as part of  my retirement plan. Already own a few LICs with large Cap shares and was after some in the mid to small cap area and WAM seems to be the pick despite higher management fees than others. Have been looking at MIR as well but have not bought any.
> 
> Iggy



Welcome onboard, Iggy,... let the professionals catch the good mid and small caps for us. Paying them well is justified since the job is not easy,... After all, they've been doing a good job too. Till now !


----------



## GlobeTrekker (15 February 2017)

WAM's price is now at around 24% premium to NTA which is the highest its ever been I think.  Geoff Wilson has been doing very well but I'm not convinced that such a high premium is justified.  Sold some recently, but still holding some, so I'm happy to be wrong!


----------



## WRiley (15 February 2017)

GlobeTrekker said:


> WAM's price is now at around 24% premium to NTA which is the highest its ever been I think.  Geoff Wilson has been doing very well but I'm not convinced that such a high premium is justified.  Sold some recently, but still holding some, so I'm happy to be wrong!



It's good to be cautious,...on my part, my Average Price is slightly below 2.40, hence the margin of safety is there. I averaged down all the way from 2.44,... I think, can't remember,... the higher this price goes, the larger my margin-of-safety,...


----------



## Muschu (24 March 2017)

Given their dividend, is there any reason why WAM should not be preferred to the likes of AFI, ARG and MLT?  I hold all of these bar AFI...


----------



## WRiley (24 March 2017)

WAM is into small and mid -caps. What abt the other three ?


----------



## Muschu (24 March 2017)

WRiley said:


> WAM is into small and mid -caps. What abt the other three ?




Largely blue chips...  MLT for example
Top 20 Investments at 28 February 2017 Market Value $ m Share of Total Assets % 
Westpac Banking Corporation 352.2 11.9 Commonwealth Bank of Australia 256.0 8.6 National Australia Bank 152.2 5.1 W H Soul Pattinson 147.3 5.0 Wesfarmers Limited 121.1 4.1 ANZ Banking Group 104.1 3.5 BHP Billiton 90.9 3.1 Bank of Queensland 86.6 2.9 Woolworths Limited 74.8 2.5 Telstra Corporation 72.2 2.4 CSL Limited 69.8 2.4 Bendigo and Adelaide Bank 69.8 2.4 Perpetual Limited 68.5 2.3 AGL Energy 65.1 2.2 Macquarie Group 56.6 1.9 AP Eagers 51.9 1.8 Suncorp Group 44.0 1.5 Brickworks Limited 40.2 1.4 Transurban Group 38.7 1.3 Blackmores Limited 37.6 1.3


----------



## WRiley (24 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> Largely blue chips...  MLT for example
> Top 20 Investments at 28 February 2017 Market Value $ m Share of Total Assets %
> Westpac Banking Corporation 352.2 11.9 Commonwealth Bank of Australia 256.0 8.6 National Australia Bank 152.2 5.1 W H Soul Pattinson 147.3 5.0 Wesfarmers Limited 121.1 4.1 ANZ Banking Group 104.1 3.5 BHP Billiton 90.9 3.1 Bank of Queensland 86.6 2.9 Woolworths Limited 74.8 2.5 Telstra Corporation 72.2 2.4 CSL Limited 69.8 2.4 Bendigo and Adelaide Bank 69.8 2.4 Perpetual Limited 68.5 2.3 AGL Energy 65.1 2.2 Macquarie Group 56.6 1.9 AP Eagers 51.9 1.8 Suncorp Group 44.0 1.5 Brickworks Limited 40.2 1.4 Transurban Group 38.7 1.3 Blackmores Limited 37.6 1.3



Tq. For myself,.. I think I can handle the blue chips myself without going through MLT and then having to pay them mgmt. fees. My investment objectives are clear,...
It's only that at this moment, I may need help with the smaller players,... hence, buying into WAM !


----------



## pinkboy (25 March 2017)

WRiley said:


> Tq. For myself,.. I think I can handle the blue chips myself without going through MLT and then having to pay them mgmt. fees. My investment objectives are clear,...
> It's only that at this moment, I may need help with the smaller players,... hence, buying into WAM !




Besides the fact that you effectively have at risk 1 out of every 5 shares with WAM (25% premium), you might want to check out the management fee structure for Wilson Asset Management. They take stiff profit dollars off the table which can't be used to grow the business or pay out dividends to WAM shareholders as effective as say MLT, AFI or ARG all with low <.2% management fee and steady growth dividends.

ARG, AFI and MLT are much bigger beasts with different investment strategy than WAM so cant really be directly compared.

pinkboy


----------



## WRiley (25 March 2017)

pinkboy said:


> Besides the fact that you effectively dont own 1 out of every 5 shares with WAM (25% premium), you might want to check out the management fee structure for Wilson Asset Management. They take stiff profit dollars off the table which can't be used to grow the business or pay out dividends to WAM shareholders as effective as say MLT, AFI or ARG all with low <.2% management fee and steady growth dividends.
> 
> ARG, AFI and MLT are much bigger beasts with different investment strategy than WAM so cant really be directly compared.
> 
> pinkboy



Hmm,.. a point there you have, pinkboy,.. Yeah, I've heard that WAM hammers hard on the mgmt. fees, but I was always thinking that if they are able to deliver, why not let them earn the fee ?
I understand that MLT goes after the blue chips. What do ARG and AFI go after ?


----------



## GlobeTrekker (25 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> Given their dividend, is there any reason why WAM should not be preferred to the likes of AFI, ARG and MLT?  I hold all of these bar AFI...



As I said in a previous post, WAM is now trading at a big premium to NTA (over 26% now) which is a bit of a concern, though I guess if he keeps performing then maybe its justified.  I'm holding WAM but not buying anymore.  The other three are now trading at slight discounts to NTA which is good for big LICs that essentially follow the index. I've bought a bit more of each recently.



WRiley said:


> Tq. For myself,.. I think I can handle the blue chips myself without going through MLT and then having to pay them mgmt.



  None of those three charge separate management fees and performance fees like other LICs (including WAM) do, and their Management Expense Ratios (MERs) are very low - MLT's is only 0.12% of total assets, less than most ETFs.


----------



## pinkboy (25 March 2017)

WRiley said:


> Hmm,.. a point there you have, pinkboy,.. Yeah, I've heard that WAM hammers hard on the mgmt. fees, but I was always thinking that if they are able to deliver, why not let them earn the fee ?
> I understand that MLT goes after the blue chips. What do ARG and AFI go after ?




Because they still take a nice slice of the pie even when they don't perform = lower profits to pay out shareholders.

Why not do some research of the other companies yourself? They announce their portfolio every month.

pinkboy


----------



## Muschu (25 March 2017)

I've looked at their portfolios and [as a conservative investor] am happy with having some of MLT, ARG and WAM. Nothing against AFI btw.

I have 17 other holds in my SMSF atm but, particularly in volatile times, these I find easier to sleep with... WAM, and I won't go check right now, has the highest ff dividend - about 6% I think.

My online immediate access cash a/c is paying 2.15%


----------



## GlobeTrekker (26 March 2017)

WRiley said:


> I understand that MLT goes after the blue chips. What do ARG and AFI go after ?



All three go mostly for blue chips.  One small difference is MLT and AFI hold a higher percentage of their portfolio in the big 4 banks (around 30% of their total portfolio) as compared with ARG (21% of its total portfolio).


----------



## WRiley (26 March 2017)

GlobeTrekker said:


> All three go mostly for blue chips.  One small difference is MLT and AFI hold a higher percentage of their portfolio in the big 4 banks (around 30% of their total portfolio) as compared with ARG (21% of its total portfolio).



Tq GT,... appreciated your insights. I do invest directly into the large-caps, hence, if I do invest into any of these three LICs, I'd be duplicating my investment strategy. But investing into WAM would be diversifying, I would say,....


----------



## peter2 (12 April 2017)

*WAM* goes XD tomorrow and there seems to be some early weakness. Today and yesterday had some above average selling (supply). 

With an NTA ~2.00, possibly the price has gone too high and the premium too large. 

I've sold near the highs and plan to wait for the XD drop and additional dip that usually follows. I'll still wait for an up day as a signal bar.


----------



## Belli (21 April 2017)

I don't hold this particular LIC but have been watching it for sometime.  While it does have a high yield, there are two reasons why I'm reluctant to place funds.

The first being the high management/performance fees which appear to go to external management companies associated with some of the Directors (I notice they still take Director's fees as well.)

The second is I've noticed that after almost every dividend payment, they seem to place shares with "professional and sophisticated" investors and the amount of shares issued just happen to be the difference between shares issued under the DRP and the number of shares if ALL shareholders participated fully in the DRP .  In other words, retail minnows such as myself would likely be diluted.  Not too sure about that approach.


----------



## Tightwad (21 April 2017)

yep, slightly miffed about that, bought a heap recently and i'd like to top up at that price.


----------



## WRiley (21 April 2017)

Anybody heard of the up and coming WAM Microcap ? Anybody here wants to be the early bird investors ?


----------



## Tightwad (22 April 2017)

i'd look at it, but i already have a microcap fund (doing terribly at the moment) and about 30% in lic's with small to midcap.  should probably add some boring stuff to my folio.


----------



## GlobeTrekker (22 April 2017)

Belli said:


> The second is I've noticed that after almost every dividend payment, they seem to place shares with "professional and sophisticated" investors and the amount of shares issued just happen to be the difference between shares issued under the DRP and the number of shares if ALL shareholders participated fully in the DRP .  In other words, retail minnows such as myself would likely be diluted.  Not too sure about that approach.



As an existing investor, I'm happy whenever they do this as it actually increases the NTA per share for everyone else when they sell shares at a premium to NTA.  If the current NTA is $1.93 and they are selling these new shares for $2.37, it will increase NTA (marginally for such a small placement though) for all existing shares.  It would be a different story if they were selling at a discount to NTA, which would have a detrimental effect on the NTA of existing shares.  Sometimes after a professional placement they'll later offer the same deal to existing investors through an SPP, wait and see I guess.



WRiley said:


> Anybody heard of the up and coming WAM Microcap ? Anybody here wants to be the early bird investors ?



Yep, very interested in this.  A chance to buy into Wilson's expertise in this area at NTA, without having to pay the current 25%+ premiums that exist for his other companies like WAM and WAX.


----------



## WRiley (22 April 2017)

Tightwad said:


> i'd look at it, but i already have a microcap fund (doing terribly at the moment) and about 30% in lic's with small to midcap.  should probably add some boring stuff to my folio.






GlobeTrekker said:


> Yep, very interested in this.  A chance to buy into Wilson's expertise in this area at NTA, without having to pay the current 25%+ premiums that exist for his other companies like WAM and WAX.




Thank you for your replies.

If a microcap fund out there is doing terribly, chances are this space is not that easy to do. How can we be sure WAM can perform the same with that microcap fund as they have performed with the small and mid-cap (WAM) and WAX,... though I don't know what WAX invests into ?


----------



## AlwaysBeClosing (22 April 2017)

Newb question here..

I'm looking at the charts and the buyers/sellers, yet the prices don't seem to match up - why are the buyers' prices higher than the offers from the sellers?


----------



## WRiley (22 April 2017)

AlwaysBeClosing said:


> Newb question here..
> 
> I'm looking at the charts and the buyers/sellers, yet the prices don't seem to match up - why are the buyers' prices higher than the offers from the sellers?



I used to have this thinking as yours too,... until I started thinking in the following way : Investors who wish to BUY must look at column : Buyers, and investors who wish to Sell must look at column : Sellers. Then we'll be in the right frame of mind !


----------



## Tightwad (22 April 2017)

seems most of the small cap funds have been hammered lately, i'd be worried if it was only mine under performing.  my issue with mine is it seems they hardly hold any cash and held onto the previous dividend.


----------



## WRiley (23 April 2017)

Tightwad said:


> seems most of the small cap funds have been hammered lately, i'd be worried if it was only mine under performing.  my issue with mine is it seems they hardly hold any cash and held onto the previous dividend.



Hmm,... yr small-cap fund hardly holds any cash ? You're right,... kinda dangerous there,... what fund and fund co is this pls ?


----------



## Muschu (23 April 2017)

Is the WAM micro-cap available now or still in the future?  Any ticker at this point?


----------



## Tightwad (23 April 2017)

WRiley said:


> Hmm,... yr small-cap fund hardly holds any cash ? You're right,... kinda dangerous there,... what fund and fund co is this pls ?




ausbil microcap, seemed they were on 5% cash a while ago, 12% now if what i've read is accurate.


----------



## peter2 (23 April 2017)

AlwaysBeClosing said:


> Newb question here..
> 
> I'm looking at the charts and the buyers/sellers, yet the prices don't seem to match up - why are the buyers' prices higher than the offers from the sellers?




WAM is currently in a trading halt. No shares can be traded. However orders to buy and sell can be placed into the system while it's closed and we're seeing those orders that have been placed.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 April 2017)

AlwaysBeClosing said:


> Newb question here..
> 
> I'm looking at the charts and the buyers/sellers, yet the prices don't seem to match up - why are the buyers' prices higher than the offers from the sellers?




Date is Sat 22 April = pre market.

http://www.ampcapital.com.au/smsf-s...uary/understanding-asx-market-trading-periods


----------



## AlwaysBeClosing (23 April 2017)

Thank you, all, that makes sense now!


----------



## GlobeTrekker (24 April 2017)

Muschu said:


> Is the WAM micro-cap available now or still in the future?  Any ticker at this point?



WAM Microcap Limited was registered as a company with ASIC last month but isn't available to buy yet, expected to launch in the next few weeks. Don't know if it has a ticker yet.

http://wilsonassetmanagement.com.au/2017/04/20/wam-bam-thank-maam/


----------



## peter2 (15 May 2017)

WAM is unlikely to make the ASX shockers thread but it's still capable of providing a shock. 
Today's price plunge to 2.25 is a shock. I've been waiting for a HL to re-buy as it's been a good conservative post div. earner over the past few years. 

When they were raising capital six months ago I was wondering how they were going to invest it. The small/mid cap sector that they invest in had a great run up for the prior two years. That's underpinned their good performance (and made the cap raising so successful). That sort of quick growth doesn't persist. One only needs to look at the XEC (emerging companies index) to see what's happening to that sector. 

Currently WAM is involved with starting a micro-cap fund and being involved with CYA that also invests in the same sector. 

I think WAM has taken their eyes off the ball and it's hit them in the head.


----------



## willy1111 (16 May 2017)

WAM micro is set up to invest in companies sub $300M market cap at time of entry.

With WAM Capital now worth 1.2B, taking a small position in companies sub $300M isn't likely to contribute  a material return on the overall fund, thus the reason to create a new smaller fund.

I'd expect the returns to be quite volatile but possibly as good as the returns WAM capital enjoyed in the early days. 17% compounded over 17 years is a pretty good track record.


----------



## WRiley (17 May 2017)

willy1111 said:


> WAM micro is set up to invest in companies sub $300M market cap at time of entry.
> 
> With WAM Capital now worth 1.2B, taking a small position in companies sub $300M isn't likely to contribute  a material return on the overall fund, thus the reason to create a new smaller fund.
> 
> I'd expect the returns to be quite volatile but possibly as good as the returns WAM capital enjoyed in the early days. 17% compounded over 17 years is a pretty good track record.



With WAM Micro being setup,... will the mgmt lose sight of WAM Capital in future, and they focussed all they have onto the new fund ? Is this something common in such fund mgmt companies ? Ie,... setting up new funds whenever possible and then set aside the older, performing ones ?


----------



## Ianvestor (2 July 2017)

willy1111 said:


> WAM micro is set up to invest in companies sub $300M market cap at time of entry.
> 
> With WAM Capital now worth 1.2B, taking a small position in companies sub $300M isn't likely to contribute  a material return on the overall fund, thus the reason to create a new smaller fund.
> 
> I'd expect the returns to be quite volatile but possibly as good as the returns WAM capital enjoyed in the early days. 17% compounded over 17 years is a pretty good track record.




I expect WMI to outperform WAM in the future. Microcaps has arguably been the strength of the Wilson brand especially in the early days as you mentioned, and so you get that with WMI. The success and increased size of WAM means it will not buy the good smaller opportunities to the extent it used to. Strangely though you can buy WMI much closer to its NTA.


----------



## WRiley (3 July 2017)

Ianvestor said:


> I expect WMI to outperform WAM in the future. Microcaps has arguably been the strength of the Wilson brand especially in the early days as you mentioned, and so you get that with WMI. The success and increased size of WAM means it will not buy the good smaller opportunities to the extent it used to. Strangely though you can buy WMI much closer to its NTA.



Means WMI is cheaper compared to WAM,... which is normal because WMI has just been launched, and investors are more careful. I think WMI will be more volatile given its investments into such small-cap companies,.....


----------



## Dona Ferentes (9 July 2020)

WAM Capital has declared a final 7.75 cents per share fully franked interim dividend, to take the full year total to 15.5 cents per share.

WAM Capital reports that before fees and taxes the investment portfolio's 2.8 per cent fall for the year beat the 7.2 per cent fall of the S&P/ASX All Ordinaries Accumulation Index by 4.4 per cent.

The portfolio's top holdings by weighting at the period end were Elders, Bapcor, IDP Education, Austal and Infomedia. 

_- trades above its NTA (at least recently, this was the case)_


----------



## finicky (18 January 2021)

Good December Half results, remembering they keep a fair bit of cash in reserve during doubtful times. Weekly chart looks more bullish than not to me.

Held
Sentiment: Hold

"The WAM Capital (ASX: WAM) Board of Directors announced today a fully franked interim dividend of 7.75 cents per share, currently representing an annualised fully franked dividend yield of 6.9%, *total shareholder return of 26.8% in the financial year to date* and strong investment portfolio outperformance."

The WAM Capital investment portfolio increased 22.8%^ in the financial year to date, outperforming the S&P/ASX All Ordinaries Accumulation Index by 7.1%^ with an *average cash holding of 11.0%.*

Weekly


----------



## baby_swallow (19 February 2021)

Anybody knows what's goin' on with WAM?
Since the last post, by @finicky , the share price have been dropping for two weeks.
Last week,  Feb 8-12, volume spiked to 14+ million, which is the largest in the last 10 yrs.
What is more interesting is that last week's volume is larger that the 2nd week of March 2020
- the height of the pandemic news.
Some big guys are liquidating?....moving their funds to somewhere else?.....they must know something
we don't.
.




-


----------



## finicky (19 February 2021)

I hadn't noticed, WAM being just a long term hold for me. Out of the ordinary negative volume for sure.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (19 February 2021)

January 2021 Investment Update  ... Pre-tax NTA of $1.81

still trading well above this level.

when WAM took over Wealth Defender (destroyer?) Equities WDE in 2017, they offered WAM shares - then trading at similar premium - or cash. The targets took the shares and then sold (as you would). WAM dropped a bit when higher than normal volume disturbed the usual sleepy trading. <a lot of _buyers n holders _in the shareholder base>

Now looks like AYS and CLF corporate moves are in the end game ... something similar happening?


----------



## finicky (19 February 2021)

Feb 19 (Reuters) - Wam Capital Ltd 

HY PROFIT BEFORE INCOME TAX $233.4 MILLION, UP 144.1%
HY REVENUE FROM ORDINARY ACTIVITIES $258.8 MILLION, UP 117.8%
DECLARES INTERIM DIVIDEND OF 7.75 CENTS PER SHARE


----------



## Dona Ferentes (4 May 2021)

And maybe a shake up of the portfolios amongst the 7 LICs run by Wilson.

_It is understood the Wilson Asset Management team has spent the past week or two marketing WAR, or *WAM Strategic Value*, to existing clients and financial planning groups, to make sure the cash rolls in when the offer opens later this month.

The $225 million IPO was slated to be priced at $1.25 a share, according to a presentation given to potential investors, with the first $125 million reserved for existing WAM investors (dubbed the Wilson Asset Management Family).

Firm founder Wilson will personally manage the WAR portfolio and target anything trading at a discount to its underlying asset values. His primary focus will be on other listed investment company and listed investment trusts, the presentation said.

Of course WAM's no stranger to LIC and LITs. The firm already has 18 positions worth $147.7 million and trading at an average 14.3 per cent discount to their asset backing, the presentation said. It would make sense if some or all of those ended up inside WAR, given its strategic objectives.

Those positions include shares in the likes of high-profile LICs run by L1 Capital and VGI Partners, where WAM is already a shareholder, as well as smaller offerings from the likes of Naos Asset Management, Antipodes Partners, Spheria Asset Management and Thorney.

Taylor Collison and Morgans are named as joint lead managers to WAR's IPO._


----------



## finicky (4 May 2021)

Narrowed it down to a punt on any targets yet @Dona Ferentes?  ⚗️
Quid pro quo $ODY, although I shouldn't give that away.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (4 May 2021)

I compiled this about a month ago
*discount ..... Market Cap ........ Code and Name*
-25% ............. $34million .......... GC1 ....... Glennon Small Companies
-23% ............ $723 million ......... CIN ...... Carlton Investments
-22% ............ $105 million ......... TOP ..... Thorney Opportunities
-22% .............. $75 million ......... OZG ..... OzGrowth
-21% ............. $47 million .......... NAC ...... Naos Ex-50 Opportunities
-17% ............. $121 million ......... NSC ...... Naos Small cap Opportunities
-14% ............. $139 million ......... TEK ....... Thorney Technologies
-11% ............. $127 million ......... SEC ...... Spheria Emerging Companies
-11% ............. $225 million ......... QVE ...... QV Equities
-10% ............. $154 million ......... WIC ...... WestOz
-9% ................ $98 million .......... SNC ...... Sandon Capital

There are a few "alternative" and International LICs but they may be harder to unwind (and some are too big)
-9% ................ $95 million ........... AEG ..... Absolute Equity Performance
-18% .............. $462 million ........ PGF ...... PM Capital Global Opportunities
-14% .............. $53 million .......... PAF ...... PM Capital Asian Opportunities
-15% .............. $879 million ........ VG1 ...... VGI Partners Global Investments
-14% .............. $505 million ......... APL ..... Antipodes Global Investment
-16% .............. $120 million ......... TGF ..... Tribeca Global Natural Resources
-23% ............... $23 million ........... LRT ...... Lowell Resources Fund


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 December 2021)

WAM Capital will absorb junior listed investment companies Westoz Investment Company and Ozgrowth in a triple _*all share*_ merger that gives WAM Capital more than $300 million of assets for $271.5 million.

Westoz and Ozgrowth shareholders will receive WAM Capital scrip as part of the agreed deal. The transaction takes WAM Capital assets to $2 billion. The deal is accretive for WAM Capital, as the new shares will be issued at a premium to the value of its underlying assets.

Westoz and Ozgrowth are presently managed by Westoz Funds Management, under the Perth based Euroz Hartleys Group, which itself is a shareholder in both LICs (as is WAM Capital). The listed Euroz Hartleys is the product of the 2020 unification of the two Western Australian wealth management groups.

A scheme meeting is likely to be held in April 2022 for Westoz and Ozgrowth shareholders to vote on the proposals, which are not interdependent. Ozgrowth shareholders will receive 0.168 WAM Capital shares for each Ozgrowth share held were the deal struck on their respective November 30 valuations, and Westoz shareholders would get 0.652 WAM Capital shares for each Westoz share held.


----------



## finicky (28 December 2021)

Both on your list @Dona Ferentes 💡


----------



## divs4ever (28 December 2021)

however  WIC deploys investment cash NOTHING like WAM  , i have had 10 years  to buy WAM ,  but bought WAX in September 2011 (  @ 70 cents   and still hold some )
 held OZG  between December 2011 ( bought @ 14.5 cents ) and May 2018 ( sold @ 18 cents )
 bought WIC in July 2011 ( @ $1.115 ) , July 2015 (  @ 94.5 cents )  and January 2016 ( @ 78 cents ) and  exited in  July 2018 ( @ $1.185  ) bought back in April 2020 ( @ 77 cents ) and still hold

now for some reason Geoff Wilson  thinks i really want his WAM LIC  now ( when i could have bought in much cheaper  years ago )

 ummm hey Geoff  , maybe some of us retail buyers realize all LICs are NOT the same ( strategy )  you have influence more than a half dozen LICs  why wouldn't you have offered  say WAX  or WMI or even WAA  , and give us something kinda like the risk range we have  already 

  PS i bought OZG ( when i had them ) and WIC ESPECIALLY for their WA  focus  , putting a 'M' on WA won't fool all the holders 

 PPS  i bought BKI as a better fit for me  for a stable conservative strategy  ( at a fair price )


----------



## finicky (28 December 2021)

Yes very different choices to WAM and I guess WMI would be a closer fit. I see WIC and OZG both hold a lot of cash and gold related stocks*
WIC: Cash 18%, Gold 29% (including 3% of KCN and 11% of WAF
OZG: Cash: 21%, Gold 35%
* as at November's monthly statement6


----------



## divs4ever (28 December 2021)

WIC and OZG appear to be trading a big part of their  holdings , maybe 'buy the rumor sell the news ' but they have been surprisingly resilient  over the last 10 years ( although div. leveling has probably kept the retail folk holding ) it will be a hard strategy to replace with a LIC  if the takeover completes


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

Bell Potter report of 17 December.  Is the reduction in performance from the five year mark compared with some of the other LICs due to WAM's habit of acquiring other LICs?  I don't know if that is the case but there seems to be a drag on performance looking at MIR (same category - I hold MIR) and the larger LICs such as ARG (I hold) and AFI.


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

Goodness me.  Just had a look at some MER's.

ARG: 0.18%
AFI: 0.18%
MIR: 0.7%
WAM: 1% and performance fee

Why is WAM charging that for what doesn't appear to be a stellar performance as of late?

Or, alternatively, why are investors prepared to pay that?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (29 December 2021)

Goodness indeed.

I have always seen GW and his merry troupe as being marketers of product; to me, the _McGuigans _of the LIC space. The Wilson team has been assiduous at doing presentations, of reaching out and there is definitely a loyal cohort of sticky investors who hear the story.

But , and I won't dig down to recent Annuals, when I looked at it more intensely, the annual payout was much more driven by capital gains, often under 12 months, rather than paying through dividends received, and that must impact those longer term numbers. The headline is the story.

And the Monthly updates only list the Top 20 in alphabetical order. Too much trading?

Like you, @Belli, I hold the first three but not WAM. I have a few WMA which was a screaming buy (but still under NTA).


----------



## finicky (29 December 2021)

@Belli Good at publicity? Following from that - brand. A lot of pople would recognize and have a positive reaction to the name. Example is the campaign led by Geoff Wilson against Labor's policy to ditch franking credit refunds. They're always coming up with flurries of ASX announcements - I've stopped reading them. Image would mostly account for me buying them Apr 2019 at close to today's price.
The chart had been performing well for years before that.
I'm pretty sure I would have noted the steady franked dividend even for bad years. Not that expensive if you look at return on equity. I continue to quite like them as a place to park and feel a bit reassured by the cash they hold in reserve and their readiness to increase that. But what distinguishes them is probably mostly brand.


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

I only noticed there was a a bit of chatter about WAM on this forums and became curious - a bad habit really. 

I don't know much about GW's products to be honest.  I think WAM is more of a trader than any of the other older LICs and the LIC Capital Gain Discount doesn't apply as a consequence.


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2021)

that lack of discount nearly always dulls my interest in a LIC ,

 the other question i haven't seen asked ( anywhere i have been watching ) is what is the critical  mass-size of WAM ??

it is currently trying to absorb PAF , WIC , and OZG ( and EZL )  but not much of those 3 portfolios  fits nicely inside the WAM mandate  , which means selling , transferring to a stable-mate , or starting another LIC

this can't be easily compared to the SOL absorption of MLT 

 so the WAM expansion  just seems to be about getting more funds under-management ( or taking out rivals )

 given the current WAM mandate  surely it has a maximum size to limit being a cost-efficient fund ( not warp the market during portfolio shifts   wrecking the price )


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2021)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Goodness indeed.
> 
> I have always seen GW and his merry troupe as being marketers of product; to me, the _McGuigans _of the LIC space. The Wilson team has been assiduous at doing presentations, of reaching out and there is definitely a loyal cohort of sticky investors who hear the story.
> 
> ...



 yes some like WAX turn over the portfolio vary aggressively   just a the constant swirl of names on the 'top 20' list is a fair indication of that

 ( but to me in WAX's case that is  acceptance  , if it were happening in say BKI and QVE  i would find the less attractive )

 and also Geoff Wilson has made unsuccessful raids on several other LICs  one might wonder  if analyzing  investment ( inside the portfolio ) opportunities  is a primary focus there ( i think the call it PNI now  after a name/ticker change )


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Goodness me.  Just had a look at some MER's.
> 
> ARG: 0.18%
> AFI: 0.18%
> ...



 when i was looking  at LICs  ( to buy )  only WAX seemed to justify the fees charged in the Wilson stable   ( i don't mind paying the fees WHEN then can actually outperform   my guesstimate  benchmark )

  i found QVE  and BKI  more suitable  when  comparing the WAM  mandate  to equivalent peers ,  but if LICs  like AFI , ARG , AUI  or  even CIN and WHF were to drop in price    without being caught in a disaster , they are still included in my low priority watch-list  and could easily get moved near the top of the list .


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Bell Potter report of 17 December.  Is the reduction in performance from the five year mark compared with some of the other LICs due to WAM's habit of acquiring other LICs?  I don't know if that is the case but there seems to be a drag on performance looking at MIR (same category - I hold MIR) and the larger LICs such as ARG (I hold) and AFI.
> 
> View attachment 134861



on that list i also hold CAM  , BKI ,  but to the newcomers  CAM  has changed it's mandate several times in the last few years  and managed to do so without a major stumble  ( and stumbles are easy  if you start wandering outside your comfort zone )


----------



## Dona Ferentes (3 January 2022)

Belli said:


> ARG: 0.18%, AFI: 0.18%, MIR: 0.7%
> WAM: 1% and performance fee
> 
> Why is WAM charging that for what doesn't appear to be a stellar performance as of late?



not having a go, because quite often MER isn't the total cost incurred to run a company; did you get those numbers from the Bell Potter spread?

From the latest Monthly reports:
AFI : Management cost: 0.14 per cent, no performance fees. 
ARG : MER 0.14% (_ Internal management structure ensures low operating costs and no external fees_)
MIR :  Management cost: 0.50 per cent, no performance fees. (_... and it has been coming down as FUM increases; Feb 2020, 0.61 per cent_)
WAM : can't find anything in the Monthly update. Probably there in the Annual Report. I'll believe yr numbers.

I just did an IRR report for assets I hold, to 31 Dec. Some pleasing numbers for the LICs; consistent too.
Returns include franking and are for ......... 12 months .... 3 years .... 5 years .....10 years ... Since inception (early 2007 incl GFC)
Australian Foundat. - Ordinary Fully Paid (AFI) ... 21.17% ... 18.52% ... 13.70% .... 14.31% ... 8.76%pa
- Argo Investments - Ordinary Fully Paid (ARG) ... 27.16% ...16.09% ... 12.08% .... 13.50% .... 8.34%pa
Mirrabooka Invest. - Ordinary Fully Paid (MIR) ... 29.41% ... 25.07% ... 12.59% .... 19.90% .... 12.35%pa

Of course, some say these are "_buy and hold_" or '_set and forget_" but that isn't necessarily true. The management of each is making decisions all the time (" _actively managed in a tax-aware manner within a low cost structure _") ; plus there is the opportunity to participate in rights issues/ SPPs and enhance returns if so inclined (Buy if below NTA; Sell if above NTA) .


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> not having a go, because quite often MER isn't the total cost incurred to run a company; did you get those numbers from the Bell Potter spread?





All good.  I was even lazier than that and got them from the ASX product list.

As for WAM much like others in the stable.  Who gives a rats about Directors fees when there is $30M flowing out in management and performance fees.  To whom I wonder - actually I don't.


----------



## Ann (3 January 2022)

Belli said:


> As for WAM much like others in the stable. Who gives a rats about Directors fees when there is $30M flowing out in management and performance fees. To whom I wonder - actually I don't.



I remember when this was listed back in '99 for $1. Geoff was pumping it in Shares Magazine, it was his first fund. I got a company report from them as back in those days there were no charting systems and I attempted to do it on a fundamental basis.
After reading through all the information very carefully I decided it wasn't for me. Hidden in all the gumph in various sections there were a couple of hidden words in different sections. BAM and MAAM. I thought to myself...funny man, WAM, BAM, thank you MAAM! No thank you SIR!
Then I did a bit more research and found his old man Carl Wilson appeared a bit dodgy. So decided if father like son best to keep clear.

_*Fund founders clipped*_​_

Two young guns who were raised in the halcyon days of the venerable Melbourne broking firm McIntosh (now Merrill Lynch) have found themselves in a spot of bother with the taxman.

Carl Wilson and Graeme Little, who went on to found and run Greenchip Funds Management - which advocated shares in small companies over blue-chip stocks - will have to pay the ATO a hefty sum over unpaid tax on a $500,000 deduction each of them claimed as part of an employee share plan.

Little settled the dispute with the Tax Office for an undisclosed sum but Wilson told the court that he had to withdraw from settlement negotiations "following a police raid on [his home/office] that was thought to be in connection with [the offshore tax scheme crackdown] Operation Wickenby" in October 2005.

To add to his woes, Wilson will have to pay the tax he owes, plus interest going back seven years and a hefty penalty, after the court threw out his case.

The fund was wound up at the end of 2000.

Wilson has left the country and is building a funds management business in Europe and Dubai._









						Dying sheep gives UBS the heave-ho
					

Michael Evans banished some gnomes to the back of the garden, next to the compost heap.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## divs4ever (3 January 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> not having a go, because quite often MER isn't the total cost incurred to run a company; did you get those numbers from the Bell Potter spread?
> 
> From the latest Monthly reports:
> AFI : Management cost: 0.14 per cent, no performance fees.
> ...



 i hold WAX   and that WAM  estimate  ( because you are talking performance fees ) is about right  BUT  i expect a high-fee fund to produce the goods most of the time  .. now WAX has done very nicely for me  , but what of the other stable-mates ??

 add to that WAM's acquisitive tendencies  and you might wonder how much of that  out-performance is strictly predatory take-overs since it ISN'T trying to acquire LICs operating in the same investing  theme  ( if it were it would be chasing  say , MIR , AMH or WHF )


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

I had a look (my mistake) at WAM.  I see the claim is it returned 16.4% since inception and compared that return to the ASX All Ords Accumulation Index.  Seems it is done that way as the ASX Accumulation does not take taxes and fees into account so the reported return is also before fees and taxes.  Seems fair enough apart from the fact the ASX Accumulation Index doesn't take 8% in fees from revenue income.

If anybody wishes to invest in the GW products on offer do so by all means and I hope it works for them.  Not sure if some understand how much they are paying to get that dividend.

I'll stick with the plodders LICs I hold and the smaller MIR along with the two ETFs.  Probably the worse thing an investor can do is fiddle with their holdings looking for that edge.  Broad based, low-cost diversified holdings work well. Keep buying no matter the circumstances and allow time and compounding to do their work.


----------



## divs4ever (3 January 2022)

i 'fiddle ' by adding more LICs ( and ETFs ) at opportune  moments  ( and several are DRPed )  ,  some plodders  like IBC  and BKI and some  adaptable  ( like  CAM and CDM ), and some rather adventurous ( like WAX  and WIC )

 obviously the trick is to get the entry ( and top up ) prices close to right 

now i don't live and breathe 'bigger is better ' in the LIC/ETF  world  sometimes smaller means agile and nimble  ( see CDM in March 2020 ) compared to me  BUYING selectively in that month ( because i had already taken some profits at sensible levels , in the previous 3 months )

 but then i am retired  , i can watch the markets ,  go to some medical appointments or just nap  , the members out there still earning an income have other priorities , so make other choices


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

divs4ever said:


> i 'fiddle ' by adding more LICs ( and ETFs ) at opportune  moments  ( and several are DRPed )  ,  some plodders  like IBC  and BKI and some  adaptable  ( like  CAM and CDM ), and some rather adventurous ( like WAX  and WIC )
> 
> obviously the trick is to get the entry ( and top up ) prices close to right
> 
> ...




I am also retired.

I also attend medical appointments.

I nap sometimes.

I am not earning a wage

I don't fiddle.

I don't watch the markets constantly but infrequently (when I have funds and am going to buy)

Result is VAS will pay me a five figure sum in distribitions this January and VGS not all that far from one.

It did not require me to buy selectively or chase the smaller and agile.  That is a speculative mindset not an investing one.  As for BKI there are better in my view.














And IBC?


----------



## divs4ever (3 January 2022)

yes IBC  which currently is the majority of  my bond/corporate debt exposure  , not super fantastic performance  but ( corporate ) bonds could come back in the next 5 years . 

 i am mostly chasing divs at a fair price  , one day ARG ( or AFI or AUI )  will come down to an acceptable price . it just hasn't happened yet ( while i have been watching )

 PS i find fiddling more productive  than watching TV or Twitter , but to each his own


----------



## Belli (4 January 2022)

Post #99 makes no sense whatsoever.  "bonds could make a comeback in the next 5 years."  Really?  No evidence provided apart from a wild guess.

Not going to bother with the poster any longer.


----------



## divs4ever (4 January 2022)

Central banks  will not provide  'easy money '  forever   , you simply cannot keep your credibility  by saying your economy is strong and growing  while maintaining easy credit for years , 

 EVENTUALLY business will have to go back to the money markets  to fund expansion  , would any  sensible business want the government to be their chief financier  , now one question i haven't seen answered  is  have the newer commercial banks lost their ability to assess risk  properly  given the recent history of Federal Governments  throwing them a life-line when they hit trouble


----------



## Iggy_Pop (12 January 2022)

I have WAM in my portfolio to gain exposure to small and mid cap shares. Have to admit the performance has dropped recently but these things happen and generally they swing around over time. I hold many Aussie large cap shares through ETFs and LICs, but wanted some diversication. I also have a few International ETFs and a bunch of Australian REITs to balance out my portfolio. 

For me, owning WAM saves me the time and effort to reseach, buy and sell the mid/small cap shares. From my own experience, they have done a better job than me, and yes the fees are 0.8% but comparitively, the small/mid cap shares have not been a great hunting ground but WAM has been good. As I am in retirement, the dividends and franking credits are nice too.  WAM to hold some dividends back to smooth out the dividend flow, and some of the LIC take overs seem to be about getting some franking credits

And I also agree with the comments, VAS, AFI, ARG etc are all good shares to hold for the long term, but they are mainly large cap.

Iggy


----------



## finicky (6 June 2022)

Wow, my small WAM holding has just gone under water after holding for more than 3 years (bought April 2019). I see Geoff Wilson has been littering the announcements with App 3Y's of substantial on market purchases, all to no avail so far.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 June 2022)

WAM used to run at about a 20% premium to NTA, as announced at the start of each month. This has been trimmed.
Also, there's a bit of a sectoral rotation. The *S&P/ASX Small Ordinaries* is down nearly 16% year to date, while its big brother the *ASX200* has dropped a more modest -3.6%. Some former small-cap darlings have led the descent, and if these are stocks in the 3Ys, then the active money can calculate a roaming NTA ahead of the monthly.
EDIT: I note MIR is also on the slide, the May NTA is $2.85 whereas it had been in the low to mid 3's for quite a while before. It is still holding, but for how long?


----------



## divs4ever (6 June 2022)

finicky said:


> Wow, my small WAM holding has just gone under water after holding for more than 3 years (bought April 2019). I see Geoff Wilson has been littering the announcements with App 3Y's of substantial on market purchases, all to no avail so far.



 yes , that is the risk of an aggressive player like Geoff  , the question is do you stick ( and maybe average down  if it slides say 10% , below your entry  ) or start looking for a graceful ( profitable ) exit 

 i hold WAX (  bought @ 70c  back in September 2011 ) now SO FAR i look fine , but given the style  i half-expect to face the same quandary in the future 

 and of course many simply faint at the GW fee structure 

 good luck  

  i am still puzzled over the recent GW strategy with the WAM acquisitions  now had he acquired MLT , yes i could see the synergy  , but surely PNI  was the logical vehicle for some of the take-overs


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 June 2022)

divs4ever said:


> and of course many simply faint at the GW fee structure



correct. Avoid


divs4ever said:


> i am still puzzled over the recent GW strategy with the WAM acquisitions  now had he acquired MLT , yes i could see the synergy  , but surely PNI  was the logical vehicle for some of the take-overs



SOL took MLT,


----------



## divs4ever (6 June 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> correct. Avoid
> 
> SOL took MLT,



 yes but WAM taking over MLT  made more sense to me  

 both WAM and SOL would have offered scrip deals  , it would be interesting to hear from members that were MLT holders  if they would have preferred  WAM over the choice they made 

 ( i hold SOL )

 PS i hold WAX ( with an equally high fee structure  ) but WAX so far   , has performed to counter-balance those fees and the higher risks WAX takes  BUT that can't go on forever  , one day i am likely to face the same choices as finicky is facing today


----------



## finicky (6 June 2022)

@divs4ever I'm not considering selling, although I will be disinclined to buy any Wilson products in future. I only hold 2,000 WAM so not a big deal. I didn't even look at MERs before the revelations on this thread. As said previously I was uncritically sucked in by the allure of the Wilson brand + the dividend yield. I also have a sml WAX holding.


----------



## Belli (6 June 2022)

The concept of WAM possibly taking over MLT instead of SOL doing it is nothing more than a bubble from an overworked and fevered imagination.  Who were the substantial holders of MLT but SOL, ARG, and AFI.  Combined blocking vote and WAM's investing style does not match with a more staid approach.

MLT was offering a substantial dividend with the merger plus it's price really went uphill on the merger announcement.  That would be a trader's delight.

Then MLT did get Hunter Hall on the cheap when GW was also punting for it.


----------



## divs4ever (6 June 2022)

finicky said:


> @divs4ever I'm not considering selling, although I will be disinclined to buy any Wilson products in future. I only hold 2,000 WAM so not a big deal. I didn't even look at MERs before the revelations on this thread. As said previously I was uncritically sucked in by the allure of the Wilson brand + the dividend yield. I also have a sml WAX holding.



 i absolutely noticed the WAX fee structure before buying BUT for WAX they were ( and still are  at MY buying price ) producing the returns 

 like you a have a relatively small holding in them  , but i understood the high activity higher risk strategy  , which offset my original desire to hold ( most ) stocks long term ( 10 years plus )

luckily for me i didn't fall for the GW salesmanship  and managed to avoid several other opportunities to by other GW offerings  ,  

 BTW  the Wilson brand  isn't the only LIC like that still available on the ASX    ( high portfolio turnover-higher risk )

 BTW i hold several other LICs with different styles/strategies that i am NOT good at (  a bit like hiring a  specialist  for a specific task )   and the passive ETFs  don't tackle


----------



## divs4ever (6 June 2022)

Belli said:


> The concept of WAM possibly taking over MLT instead of SOL doing it is nothing more than a bubble from an overworked and fevered imagination.  Who were the substantial holders of MLT but SOL, ARG, and AFI.  Combined blocking vote and WAM's investing style does not match with a more staid approach.
> 
> MLT was offering a substantial dividend with the merger plus it's price really went uphill on the merger announcement.  That would be a trader's delight.
> 
> Then MLT did get Hunter Hall on the cheap when GW was also punting for it.



 i thought GW might have offered either WAM or WLE scrip  but yes i can see how some would not have  been attracted  by GW's performance fees and high MER  ( especially if you were patient and 'cherry-picked' ARG or AFI at good entry prices )


----------



## JohnDe (9 June 2022)

Another on my price watch list has popped up. This is looks underpriced.

Time for some research.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (9 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Another on my price watch list has popped up. This is looks underpriced.
> 
> Time for some research.



Well, the NTA at end of April was $1.76 and shares were trading around $2.00; since then the general market has ground down so I would expect the new NTA to be even lower. If WAM is trading above $1.85, then it's not underpriced, _imo_


----------



## Iggy_Pop (30 November 2022)

I have decided to move on from WAM, it was one share I thought would look after it self, but with the NTA declining  along with the share price, decided to move on with PL8 as the replacement. WAM seem to be focussed on bonuses from raising the funds under management, where apparently they made a good profit with some LIC takeovers, but the NTA seems to be in decline. Decembers NTA report will be a good indicator, but in the mean time I have moved on. Good luck to WAM shareholders, maybe it is a good time to buy in, but the dividend reserve doesn't have much left, so if dividends cannot be sustained, we will see a share price drop. I have liked the dividend from WAM for a number of years, but will be interesting to see how it goes down the track.

Iggy


----------



## monkton (1 December 2022)

Iggy_Pop said:


> I have decided to move on from WAM, it was one share I thought would look after it self, but with the NTA declining  along with the share price, decided to move on with PL8 as the replacement. WAM seem to be focussed on bonuses from raising the funds under management, where apparently they made a good profit with some LIC takeovers, but the NTA seems to be in decline. Decembers NTA report will be a good indicator, but in the mean time I have moved on. Good luck to WAM shareholders, maybe it is a good time to buy in, but the dividend reserve doesn't have much left, so if dividends cannot be sustained, we will see a share price drop. I have liked the dividend from WAM for a number of years, but will be interesting to see how it goes down the track.
> 
> Iggy



I sold the last of my WAM a few months ago, been steadily selling down for a while, felt a sigh of relief that I'd moved on from it for all the reasons you've mentioned here. Was one of the first Lic's I'd bought many years ago.
Think I did a comparison & realised my returns, on a total return basis, would have been much better if I'd invested in VAS or one of the 'boring' old school Lic's instead. Still hold WLE & small holding in WMI.


----------

