# The tax man



## trainspotter (3 September 2009)

Well, here I am again at tax time and looking down the barrel of another fine year of giving the ATO a bundle of cash. My accountant has done the right thing by the letter of the law and has made the necessary deductions as required. I do not feel any wealthier for my endeavours for some reason. Almost to the point whereby I am thinking of giving it one last Hurrah and closing everything down to a bare minimum. I employ about 26 people directly and about 43 indirectly. If I shut down so do they! The amount of regulation and paperwork is driving me insane, this is not a whinge by the way. Just an observation. 

YES all you Laborites and communists out there I have kept you and your bleeding hearts and artists in the custom they have become used to but I am getting tired of feeding the masses. To tax me as much as you do will effect the overall income of Australia. If I decide to downscale then a large chunk will disappear on the income stream of middle Australia. 

There is no incentive for me to place my balls in the vice and take the risks I do to be punished for my "good fortune". I would be better just to sit back and take the gravy train like everyone else. Afterall the government will provide for me ........... won't they ? 

Tax rates 2008-09
Taxable income
 Tax on this income

$1 – $6,000 Nil

$6,001 – $34,00 15c for each $1 over $6,000

$34,001 – $80,000 $4,200 plus 30c for each $1 over $34,000

$80,001 – $180,000 $18,000 plus 40c for each $1 over $80,000

$180,001 and over $58,000 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000


----------



## trainspotter (3 September 2009)

30% tax rate on a company !!! Mein Gott !!!

http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/44266.htm


----------



## tech/a (3 September 2009)

Similar.
My Bass,Payroll,Personal and Company tax,not to mention Work Cover,is enough to make your eyes water.

Love it!!


----------



## knocker (3 September 2009)

Why not just sell up and retire. Its what I did. no point running a business nowdays, especially in this economic climate, and things will get worse


----------



## trainspotter (3 September 2009)

I employ people just to keep the bloody paperwork trail in line ! Where is the incentive?? Do I charge the Guvmt for being a tax collector ? Afterall I collect GST and remit on every BAS statement so therefore I am an employee under the letter of the law? It is geting ludicrous the amount of time I spend pouring over paperwork and paying accountants to keep everything up to date. 1/3 of my income and 1/3 of my time is devoted to keeping these bloody bureaucrats in a freeeking JOB !


----------



## Buckeroo (3 September 2009)

Hasn't been too bad (we'll hope not, haven't got the final notice from the accountant yet) - the government has assisted with a nice new 4x4

And I did get the unwanted pleasure of watching a lot of people spending their stimulus hand outs!

Cheers


----------



## Mr J (3 September 2009)

And that's just income tax. Plenty of other taxes out there.



> the government has assisted with a nice new 4x4




In other words, other people or yourself have paid for it.

Trainspotter, as much as Aussie tax pisses you off, just be glad you're not paying 60% (or some other ridiculous amount) in Denmark etc.

I'd love to see how the Governments spend the money. Just how much is put to productive use, and how much is wasted in bureaucratic mess. And they want a pay rise .


----------



## wonderrman (3 September 2009)

retire and move overseas were the tax rates are low. live in europe, tax rates in lichtenstein are small apparently. i would sail too. 

or you could live in aus for 6 months and overseas for the other 6 months, then you wouldn't be classified as resident for tax purposes - so I'm lead to believe.

w.


----------



## gooner (3 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> 30% tax rate on a company !!! Mein Gott !!!
> 
> http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/44266.htm




trainspotter

Yes, but when the company pays this as dividends to you, you get the tax back as franking credits So profits of $100, tax of $30, dividends of $70, but dividends come with $30 of franking credits.

When you get the dividends, effectively you declare the full $100, but the $30 is treated as a prepayment of tax. If you earn less than $6,000 you will get the  entire $30 back.

Downside, for you , given you sound like a plutocrat, is that you are probably on the top tax rate so when you get your $70 dividend the government wants $15 of it.


----------



## Buckeroo (3 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> In other words, other people or yourself have paid for it.




Hence the smile, I'll be paying for it over the next few years unless I retire & let my kids pay for it - only kidding

I can though, let you in on how they spend our tax payers money - by putting plaques in every school showing everyone how good the labor political party is! It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious attempt in undermining our democracy.

Cheers


----------



## gooner (3 September 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> Hence the smile, I'll be paying for it over the next few years unless I retire & let my kids pay for it - only kidding
> 
> I can though, let you in on how they spend our tax payers money - by putting plaques in every school showing everyone how good the labor political party is! It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious attempt in undermining our democracy.
> 
> Cheers




Buckeroo

Firstly, let me say that is one of the most stupidest policies that waste money that I have every seen. 

Julia Gillard's sole defence (at least when i have heard her) is that she is continuing the coalition policy.  And if that is the best she can do, it is obviously a very crap policy.


----------



## knocker (3 September 2009)

wonderrman said:


> retire and move overseas were the tax rates are low. live in europe, tax rates in lichtenstein are small apparently. i would sail too.
> 
> or you could live in aus for 6 months and overseas for the other 6 months, then you wouldn't be classified as resident for tax purposes - so I'm lead to believe.
> 
> w.




That's what I do


----------



## Mr J (3 September 2009)

That's fine Buckeroo, as far as I'm concerned it should have been your money anyway. I would love to know the level of inefficiency and how much most are being overcharged. If I was earning serious money, I'd be quite pissed off that almost half goes to these thieves.


----------



## Buckeroo (3 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> That's fine Buckeroo, as far as I'm concerned it should have been your money anyway. I would love to know the level of inefficiency and how much most are being overcharged. If I was earning serious money, I'd be quite pissed off that almost half goes to these thieves.




Mmmm, I think the only way you will find that out is by becoming a politician

Actually, I don't mind paying taxes, as long as its spent well. But as you say, the current government is not very apt in managing our taxes. 

I see today their IR laws are in tatters as well - and still the general public have total & utter confidence in KRudd - beats me as to why this is.

Cheers


----------



## adobee (3 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Well, here I am again at tax time and looking down the barrel of another fine year of giving the ATO a bundle of cash. My accountant has done the right thing by the letter of the law and has made the necessary deductions as required. I do not feel any wealthier for my endeavours for some reason. Almost to the point whereby I am thinking of giving it one last Hurrah and closing everything down to a bare minimum. I employ about 26 people directly and about 43 indirectly. If I shut down so do they! The amount of regulation and paperwork is driving me insane, this is not a whinge by the way. Just an observation.
> 
> YES all you Laborites and communists out there I have kept you and your bleeding hearts and artists in the custom they have become used to but I am getting tired of feeding the masses. To tax me as much as you do will effect the overall income of Australia. If I decide to downscale then a large chunk will disappear on the income stream of middle Australia.
> 
> ...






OHHH DAM Straight ...
You pay to the letter of the law and make a small error and get a letter for $2.78 interest you didnt declare on a bank account whilst some other prick doesnt declare any income at all !!!!!!!!

Aus tax is insane.. dont mention stamp duty on properties !!!

Small business needs a break.. every quarter I look at my account and this yeah made some money.. them pay gST, bas, payg, plus 10k+ in insurances just to protect me if some fool falls over and then... the account is again empty !!!!!!!!!!

and whats left after my taxes .. i pay $20+ a day to travel to work on private roads in NSW ... in traffic that is bumper to bumper.. on roads my taxes should own !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Amor_Fati (3 September 2009)

From memory Australia is pretty close to the middle in terms of taxation levels for OECD countries. 

Singapore is very attractive, I might try to get a job there in a few years.

From Wikipedia:


> Tax rates for individual residents
> Chargeable annual income bracket 	Rate
> For the first S$20,000 	                0%
> S$20,000 - S$30,000 	                        3.5%
> ...




1 Singapore $ = 82c Australian
So earn $320,000 pay $47,600 tax. I could live with that.



I do not understand why Rudd and his government are borrowing so much money (that will be repaid from higher taxes) to heat up the economy that the RBA is readying itself to cool down by raising interest rates. Could anyone enlighten me?


----------



## nunthewiser (3 September 2009)

considered putting everyone on contract? . ie they have there own ABN,s and operate as individual businesses contracting to you ?........ saves a sheetload of headaches and runaround ...... there is a few bits and pieces to it but i have done it the past in that industry we spoke of i had in perth and it worked well for me .

i realise different industry etc etc but there MAY be a way out of this nightmare tax problem if one looks outside the box and sacks the lot and rehire the buggers under individual contracts  and if you want to keep the cream of the crew happy keep them how they are but let the rest go subby


----------



## knocker (4 September 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> considered putting everyone on contract? . ie they have there own ABN,s and operate as individual businesses contracting to you ?........ saves a sheetload of headaches and runaround ...... there is a few bits and pieces to it but i have done it the past in that industry we spoke of i had in perth and it worked well for me .
> 
> i realise different industry etc etc but there MAY be a way out of this nightmare tax problem if one looks outside the box and sacks the lot and rehire the buggers under individual contracts  and if you want to keep the cream of the crew happy keep them how they are but let the rest go subby




You've been in the ring too long nunnas

Round two is about to begin


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

Amor, just don't plan on buying an expensive car in Singapore. I'm sure it's one of those places with ridiculous import taxes for exotic/luxury cars.

Singapore sounds good - low tax, what I guess is great infrastructure, blending of cultures, get by on English etc. I don't think it's as expensive as Sydney either?


----------



## prawn_86 (4 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Singapore sounds good - low tax, what I guess is great infrastructure, blending of cultures, get by on English etc. I don't think it's as expensive as Sydney either?




Not sure about renting or purchasing costs of a place in SIngapore, but you can live dirt cheap there. Eat in the markets for about $4 for a huge meal, taxis are cheap, clothes etc are about 20% cheaper than Aus. Singapore travel details are also available on my forum.


----------



## swm79 (4 September 2009)

TS how is your company set up?

do you have a large (and) close strong family? 

do you have a self managed super fund?

there are ways to get around paying a lot of tax.... granted, you will still need to pay tax and go through all of the paperwork etc which is a pain in the proverbial but "thems the breaks"

i'd talkl to your accountant about how to better structure your affairs.

if he hasnt suggested the money from your company filtering through a trust he's not doing his job... if he doesnt know how to set it up or doesnt have any experience in that area - he isnt very good.


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Amor, just don't plan on buying an expensive car in Singapore. I'm sure it's one of those places with ridiculous import taxes for exotic/luxury cars.
> 
> Singapore sounds good - low tax, what I guess is great infrastructure, blending of cultures, get by on English etc. I don't think it's as expensive as Sydney either?




As long as you happy to live in a country that suppresses dissent, abuses migrant workers has detention without trial fine.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/en/regions/asia-pacific/singapore

Most of us prefer to live in a freedom loving democracy like Australia where  we can pretty much do and say what we want.

Oh and tax is low in Singapore, but housing is very expensive - unless you are wealthy, expect to live in a cramped apartment


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

> As long as you happy to live in a country that suppresses dissent, abuses migrant workers has detention without trial fine




This is fine, as long as I have the ability to leave.



> ost of us prefer to live in a freedom loving democracy like Australia where we can pretty much do and say what we want.




We're given more latitude than in most nations, but you don't really believe that you live in a democracy and that you're free, do you? Probably another discussion for another thread .



> Oh and tax is low in Singapore, but housing is very expensive




That's expected since Singapore is an island. I'm okay with an apartment, as long as it's no smaller than the one I currently have (about 60sqm).


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> There is no incentive for me to place my balls in the vice and take the risks I do to be punished for my "good fortune".




That alone TS is worth a thread. We pay a price, a heavy one, for the disincentive to innovate and take risk.


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

I wrote "As long as you happy to live in a country that suppresses dissent, abuses migrant workers has detention without trial fine."

To which the reply was



Mr J said:


> This is fine, as long as I have the ability to leave.




Methinks you don't understand the meaning of "detention without trial"




Trembling Hand said:


> That alone TS is worth a thread. We pay a price, a heavy one, for the disincentive to innovate and take risk.




TH and TS

Perhaps you can give some idea on what expenditure you would cut to fund your massive tax cuts? Private school subsidies and private insurance subsidies perhaps?  Easy to say "cut taxes" but not so easy to cut expenditure


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

gooner said:


> TH and TS
> 
> Perhaps you can give some idea on what expenditure you would cut to fund your massive tax cuts? Private school subsidies and private insurance subsidies perhaps?  Easy to say "cut taxes" but not so easy to cut expenditure




Thats an easy one Gooner. I'm a bit busy right now trying to earn money for redistribution to people who don't earn but,

What about a war on middle class welfare to start. The tax that takes money from many to only hand it back as a vote buying exercise after 100s of pubic "servants" have put their grubby little mits on it. Not only is it wasted in inefficiencies by the exact people who we know should not touch money but then they hand it back trying to pick winners for you!! like they know whats best for you to do with your hard earned.

FFS and the plebs love it. Baby bonus, School projects with signs "funded by the Feds" what a joke. Inspite of what seems to be popular opinion we would do fine without the amount of "help" from them.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

To the above point. Classic example is the biggest ever Government paid for, read tax payers, project. The NBN. A project to win votes in Tassies built exactly opposite to ALL those that are in the industry and wanting to put their own money on the line.

It says a lot about how the Aussies Polly thinks that we vote in. Its madness in my silly mind that we take leads from them for what is the responsibility of the free market. 

This is the cost we happily pay it seems


----------



## nunthewiser (4 September 2009)

knocker said:


> You've been in the ring too long nunnas
> 
> Round two is about to begin





? what was wrong with my post ?

it gave options  

i cant see too many other suggestions of options other than "sell up " or " leave the country "


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

> Methinks you don't understand the meaning of "detention without trial"




I do, but I think it's quite unlikely I'd be detained, so it is an acceptable risk. Of course I'd be pissed off if I was detained without a trial, but I would have made my choice and would live with it.



> This is the cost we happily pay it seems




I agree with you, but we whinge and don't do anything about it. Few of us try to change anything, not that we could even if we wanted to. We're mostly limited to personal protests, like retiring, downsizing, or moving overseas.


----------



## moXJO (4 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Similar.
> My Bass,Payroll,Personal and Company tax,not to mention Work Cover,is enough to make your eyes water.
> 
> Love it!!




Ditto....here comes the rant

My workers comp per employee is ridiculous, and even with their own abn there is no getting around it (I wouldn’t be willing to risk them not being covered anyway). There just seems to be red tape and fees behind every door. On top of this workcover seem to be inventing more and more time wasting exercises for me to complete. 

I'm beginning to wonder if all this effort is really worth the time away from family. I have had builders go broke on me the day before they were going to hand me a cheque. I have had to chase money, take risks and pay what seems like a $hit load of taxes. Building cycles are also a bugger and can chew through all the profits you made in the previous boom. No wonder people go on wages.


Ahhhhh thats better, end rant


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> What about a war on middle class welfare to start. The tax that takes money from many to only hand it back as a vote buying exercise after 100s of pubic "servants" have put their grubby little mits on it. Not only is it wasted in inefficiencies by the exact people who we know should not touch money but then they hand it back trying to pick winners for you!! like they know whats best for you to do with your hard earned.
> 
> FFS and the plebs love it. Baby bonus, School projects with signs "funded by the Feds" what a joke. Inspite of what seems to be popular opinion we would do fine without the amount of "help" from them.






Trembling Hand said:


> To the above point. Classic example is the biggest ever Government paid for, read tax payers, project. The NBN. A project to win votes in Tassies built exactly opposite to ALL those that are in the industry and wanting to put their own money on the line.
> :




Hmmm, find myself agreeing with Trembling Hand here. First time, I can recall it happening - better check with the wife am not turning into a rabid right winger.

Industry policy - stupid trying to pick winners.

Baby bonus - as if we need more people in Australia or globally. Stupid.

School buidling - agree the plaques are a waste of money. As is money on private schools - they already have plenty. But building toilets and stuff for public school is a reasonable idea

NBN - agreed. If it's such a great idea, let Telstra and Optus bulid it. I'm quite happy with speed I get now. Except when it get shaved at the end of the month


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

gooner said:


> Hmmm, find myself agreeing with Trembling Hand here. First time, I can recall it happening - better check with the wife am not turning into a rabid right winger.



 Thats it Gooner. do not fight, come over to the darkside. :vader:


----------



## moXJO (4 September 2009)

On something a bit different. If you owe the ATO I think there is a 13%pa charge on top of what you owe. How much % is it if they owe you money?


----------



## Kez180 (4 September 2009)

knocker said:


> That's what I do




There is also the issue of source as well as residency, if you are a resident for tax purposes you get taxed on income from all sources, both Australian and overseas (Subject to DTAs) if you are a non resi for tax purposes then you are still taxed on Australian sourced income. You also have a different set of marginal tax rates...


----------



## skc (4 September 2009)

HK has the best tax system.

Maximum personal income tax ~15%, usually done on 2 sheets of paper. Rents paid on primary residence is tax deductible, and there are deductions for babies and supporting your parents.

When I worked there as expat. the locals were complaining that they pay up to 1 month of their salary in tax. 1 freaking month! I told them in Australia you worked for the government until April before you start earning for yourself.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

Skc how long and when were you there? Did you like it?


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

> HK has the best tax system.




City-states should, since their population density makes infrastructure more efficient. Imagine the drop in tax-burden if Sydney no longer had to support the infrastructure of the rest of the state.


----------



## Uncle Barry (4 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Well, here I am again at tax time and looking down the barrel of another fine year of giving the ATO a bundle of cash. My accountant has done the right thing by the letter of the law and has made the necessary deductions as required. I do not feel any wealthier for my endeavours for some reason. Almost to the point whereby I am thinking of giving it one last Hurrah and closing everything down to a bare minimum. I employ about 26 people directly and about 43 indirectly. If I shut down so do they! The amount of regulation and paperwork is driving me insane, this is not a whinge by the way. Just an observation.
> 
> YES all you Laborites and communists out there I have kept you and your bleeding hearts and artists in the custom they have become used to but I am getting tired of feeding the masses. To tax me as much as you do will effect the overall income of Australia. If I decide to downscale then a large chunk will disappear on the income stream of middle Australia.
> 
> ...




Good afternon Trainman
Welcome to Australia where 
the more you work, 
the more your risk, 
the more that is taken away from you and 
the more that is given to those that don't work or don't risk.
who find 
the more they cry and
the more they vote for Labour, the red team
the more they are given, conrade.

Welcome to the land of the Commies.

Kind regards,
UB


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Skc how long and when were you there? Did you like it?




TH - I also lived there for 4 years back in 1989 up to 1993. Still got friends there and they say it hasn't changed much. Been back a few times as well but not for about 6 or 7 years. I loved my time there as a 25 year old single professional. Had a great apartment overlooking the harbour, paid well, low tax, plenty of bars restaurants and clubs. However, now married with young kids, not for me - too much pollution, not enough green space, don't want to live in an apartment. Depends what you want really......



Mr J said:


> City-states should, since their population density makes infrastructure more efficient. Imagine the drop in tax-burden if Sydney no longer had to support the infrastructure of the rest of the state.




LOL - the rest of NSW is normally complaining about supporting Sydney. And the rest of Australia about supporting NSW (at least QLD and WA anyway). Certainly there are some benefits - one layer of Government, less long motorways and rails system, although HK's are fairly impressive particularly the MTR (Mass Transit Railway). However, city states do not have significant agricultural or other natural resources and have to import these. Effectively they rely on their people, not the land. Personally I put it down to the industriousness of the Chinese rather than being a city state.


----------



## skc (4 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Skc how long and when were you there? Did you like it?




I was there for 18 months, during SARS no less, but still had a ball.

There are many things to like...night life, food, shopping etc. Easy enough for expats as most speak some level of english. Public transport all good. There are obviously not as many nice parks and open spaces like in Aus, but the country side and beach are still quite relaxing. 

2 best things though (aside from low tax)..

1. Travel - I read somewhere that, from say Sydney, a 4-hour flight radius will get you to Perth, NZ and PNG. From HK, a 4-hour flight radius will cover 1/4 of the world's population.

2. Cheap nanny / maid if you hate house work. Standard rate is ~HK$4K per month (<$700 aussie). Slavery is alive and well there.

Working for a salary can be a bit tougher as people probably work longer hours and most don't go home until their boss does. But I assume you will be working for yourself right?


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

I've been there twice last year as a tourist for a couple of weeks. I did like it then but the only two things is the pollution was just Horrendous!! & I spend most of my weekends in the bush or on the push bike. 

Wonder what i would find to substitute that?

As for work, no probs worrying about the boss.  And I thing I have seen somewhere traders profits are Tax free


----------



## skc (4 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I've been there twice last year as a tourist for a couple of weeks. I did like it then but the only two things is the pollution was just Horrendous!! & I spend most of my weekends in the bush or on the push bike.
> 
> Wonder what i would find to substitute that?
> 
> As for work, no probs worrying about the boss.  And I thing I have seen somewhere *traders profits are Tax free*




There is no such thing as CGT. Now that doesn't sound fair does it!

There is also no such thing as avoiding air pollution. Most of their pollution comes from the factories up north in China. So the only solution around that is for another GFC to shut those factories down.


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I've been there twice last year as a tourist for a couple of weeks. I did like it then but the only two things is the pollution was just Horrendous!! & I spend most of my weekends in the bush or on the push bike.
> 
> Wonder what i would find to substitute that?
> 
> As for work, no probs worrying about the boss.  And I thing I have seen somewhere traders profits are Tax free




TH

Did you got to Lantau Island - fair amount of bush there. Some of the other islands not too bad. Never got into biking when there (although do some now), so can't really comment, except to say there are plenty of hills, so if you like hill climbs, perfect. But watch out for the traffic.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 September 2009)

gooner said:


> TH
> 
> Did you got to Lantau Island - fair amount of bush there. Some of the other islands not too bad. Never got into biking when there (although do some now), so can't really comment, except to say there are plenty of hills, so if you like hill climbs, perfect. But watch out for the traffic.




I did do one walk with a friend. Cannot remember the Island but it was funny. About 1 hour walk, very easy track, to climb this hill and get to the top to see this nice vista of Forest lead down to the beach and right in the middle of the bay............ A huge big coal fired power station!! lovely.


----------



## rock86 (4 September 2009)

wonderrman said:


> retire and move overseas were the tax rates are low. live in europe, tax rates in lichtenstein are small apparently. i would sail too.
> 
> or you could live in aus for 6 months and overseas for the other 6 months, then you wouldn't be classified as resident for tax purposes - so I'm lead to believe.
> 
> w.




Don't know if anybody has said this yet, but the government has changed this and you are no longer able to do this. Is alot more strict now. EG. have to show a primary place of residence overseas and are going to stay there for at least 2 years etc. Have a look on the ATO for the new rules.


----------



## overit (4 September 2009)

This article may be of use to some. Does this mean if you now want to move overseas for work you must stay there for 2+years to make benefit of any tax haven from your new host country or otherwise the gubymint will still collect the difference in tax revenue.




> Expats tax crackdown a king hit
> 
> Andrew Main, Business editor | June 29, 2009
> 
> ...


----------



## nunthewiser (4 September 2009)

Trainspotter .... if you do not wish to move overseas or retire or sell up etc etc etc . scroll back and run my idea via your accountant . theres lots of ways to cook a fish m8


----------



## knocker (4 September 2009)

overit said:


> This article may be of use to some. Does this mean if you now want to move overseas for work you must stay there for 2+years to make benefit of any tax haven from your new host country or otherwise the gubymint will still collect the difference in tax revenue.




Typical of this corrupt Kruddement. When will the mindless masses wake up to what this self serving little pr!ck is doing to this country.


----------



## knocker (4 September 2009)

Perhaps you can give some idea on what expenditure you would cut to fund your massive tax cuts? Private school subsidies and private insurance subsidies perhaps?  Easy to say "cut taxes" but not so easy to cut expenditure[/QUOTE]

How about cutting travel expenses for a beloved leader and his merry band?


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

gooner said:


> LOL - the rest of NSW is normally complaining about supporting Sydney. And the rest of Australia about supporting NSW (at least QLD and WA anyway). Certainly there are some benefits - one layer of Government, less long motorways and rails system, although HK's are fairly impressive particularly the MTR (Mass Transit Railway). However, city states do not have significant agricultural or other natural resources and have to import these. Effectively they rely on their people, not the land. Personally I put it down to the industriousness of the Chinese rather than being a city state.




They might complain, but let's see how they do when their markets, services and infrastructure is taken away. They need a market and centre to move their goods, and to provide them infrastructure. As for HK, I would say it's down to the wealth of being a key trading centre. There are quite a few similar examples in history.



knocker said:


> > Perhaps you can give some idea on what expenditure you would cut to fund your massive tax cuts? Private school subsidies and private insurance subsidies perhaps?  Easy to say "cut taxes" but not so easy to cut expenditure
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Disbanding the state governments would be a start.


----------



## knocker (4 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> They might complain, but let's see how they do when their markets, services and infrastructure is taken away. They need a market and centre to move their goods, and to provide them infrastructure. As for HK, I would say it's down to the wealth of being a key trading centre. There are quite a few similar examples in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Disbanding the state governments would be a start.




That too. Another example of polies double dipping. Why the hell do we have so many bloody finance ministers, when all they do is line each others pockets.

Get rid of state governments and while we are at it get rid of the bloody union jack on our flag.


----------



## rock86 (4 September 2009)

knocker said:


> That too. Another example of polies double dipping. Why the hell do we have so many bloody finance ministers, when all they do is line each others pockets.
> 
> Get rid of state governments and while we are at it get rid of the bloody union jack on our flag.




Yeh agree with ya on both, Rudd says that both are on his agenda, the disbanding of state governments more at the forefront.... but we'll see. It needs to happen


----------



## Mr J (4 September 2009)

Hey, if Rudd achieves that, I'll forgive the damage he has done. It's actually quite amazing how useless the state governments are, well at least that of NSW is useless. I still can't figure out how they actually spend their share of the tax, and other fees and fines.


----------



## rock86 (4 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Hey, if Rudd achieves that, I'll forgive the damage he has done. It's actually quite amazing how useless the state governments are, well at least that of NSW is useless. I still can't figure out how they actually spend their share of the tax, and other fees and fines.




Ex-New South Welshmen, now living in QLD. And Anna Bligh ain't no better, how they voted her in for another term is beyond me, honestly


----------



## trainspotter (4 September 2009)

Companies are set up just fine thanks to everybodies for the insightful quips as to how to structure myself better for reducing tax. This is not the issue I was raising. It is the endless amount of paperwork that goes along with it to satisfy the tax department. They already have the bloody BAS done quarterly so they already know your gross turnover to begin with. Along with PAYG for employees, SGC regulations, Workers comp, public liability etc etc it gets a frigging DRAG ! Then ya gotta pay them TAX on top of it .... where does all the bloody money go? Is it necessary for the PM to be overseas all the time? Why don't they look at cutbacks in their own departments instead? I have a full time person just data entering the accounts and then a CPA to report to the ATO. If I cutback then I do not have this hassle. The price you pay for being entrepreneurial I suppose? 

Hey Nun, most of the guys are subbies with ABN's etc BUT you still have to have insurance for them as well !! Even though they have their own too !!


----------



## nunthewiser (4 September 2009)

No worries , i figured you and your numbers man would have already covered most avenues on how to make life easier , just thought i,d add my 2 cents just in case you missed it in the world of red tape and handouts 

cheers


----------



## Vizion (4 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> YES all you Laborites and communists out there I have kept you and your bleeding hearts and artists in the custom they have become used to but I am getting tired of feeding the masses. To tax me as much as you do will effect the overall income of Australia. If I decide to downscale then a large chunk will disappear on the income stream of middle Australia.




Quick question, has all that happened in the last 12 months because I was under the impression we had been under a liberal government for the previous 11 years.

Not that I disagree with the general feeling of your post but lets be fair here. We are a small nation & if we don't tax people on a sliding scale as we do nothing would ever get built. its the nature of the beast.



adobee said:


> and whats left after my taxes .. i pay $20+ a day to travel to work on private roads in NSW ... in traffic that is bumper to bumper.. on roads my taxes should own !!!!!!!!!




Since a cheap dual carriageway with average traffic over it  is a minimum cost of $250,000 per k I seriously doubt you have paid for more a fraction of your journey...

We have more rd length per head of population that almost any other country on earth and only 20 odd million to tax for that. 

Lets just put that into perspective on one project shall we. The Gateway duplication is costing 11 billion there are a couple of million people in Brisbane to pay for that & then we have  hospitals etc etc etc etc & you think your personal taxes cover that do you? you do the maths... 

Oh & last but not least If you don't love it leave, your bloody lucky to be living here at all, you could be in RUSSIA where if your house burns down you don't own the land it stands on and even very large companies can & do get taken over by physical force.


----------



## So_Cynical (4 September 2009)

gooner said:


> Buckeroo
> 
> Firstly, let me say that is one of the most stupidest policies that waste money that I have every seen..




So u missed the last 4 years of the Howard Govt? the endless work choices and dob in a terrorist TV commercials at $10000 a pop....$100000 a day.


----------



## gooner (4 September 2009)

So_Cynical said:


> So u missed the last 4 years of the Howard Govt? the endless work choices and dob in a terrorist TV commercials at $10000 a pop....$100000 a day.




Nope, saw them - they were a waste of money as well.


----------



## Macquack (4 September 2009)

Trainspotter, is this thing tax deductible?


----------



## knocker (4 September 2009)

Macquack said:


> Trainspotter, is this thing tax deductible?




Doesn't he use it for work. Then it would be tax deduction. Wonder if you can claim travel for boats like you can for cars? Anyone know? i.e.


----------



## GumbyLearner (4 September 2009)

knocker said:


> Doesn't he use it for work. Then it would be tax deduction. Wonder if you can claim travel for boats like you can for cars? Anyone know? i.e.




What kind of corporate personality (ie. Pty Ltd, Trust, Partnership, Skase wannabe etc..) owns it?


----------



## Buckeroo (5 September 2009)

knocker said:


> Doesn't he use it for work. Then it would be tax deduction. Wonder if you can claim travel for boats like you can for cars? Anyone know? i.e.




Entertainment expenses. Providing on board business meetings for ASF posters

Cheers


----------



## gav (5 September 2009)

*Call for reforms of tax lurks as negative gearing frenzy hits*

http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,28323,26029676-5017313,00.html

"LANDLORDS are claiming $11 billion in tax deductions a year as a negative gearing frenzy grips the property market."  

But what I found interesting, for those here with businesses whinging about how much tax you pay...

"As the Henry Review examines how to reform our tax system, the Herald Sun also revealed *more than half of Australian companies pay less than 5 per cent tax.
*
Treasury figures reveal only a quarter of companies, or about 92,000 businesses, pay more than 15 per cent tax on their total earnings."

"The corporate tax rate is 30 per cent, yet 182,000 companies pay less than five cents in the dollar on their total earnings. And thousands pay no tax at all."

Sounds like you business owners out there need new accountants! :

One of my income streams taxed me incorrectly this year, and I've been left with a nasty bill also.


----------



## tech/a (5 September 2009)

knocker said:


> Why not just sell up and retire. Its what I did. no point running a business nowdays, especially in this economic climate, and things will get worse




Rubbish.

I have no intention of retiring.
My Father retired at 54 at the time considered wealthy.
Today nothing more than a pensioner (who owns a 42 acre farm).
His $$s have been eroded by inflation and so to will those who sell up today and retire.

I'm happy to have others run my company while I enjoy what I have of life.
I love the challenge of business and relish these times---where my competitors sound like you and I make sure they hurt as much as possible.

Business is about relationship building and those built in tough times generally pass the test of time.


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

knocker said:


> Doesn't he use it for work. Then it would be tax deduction. Wonder if you can claim travel for boats like you can for cars? Anyone know? i.e.




LMAO ... When she is used for commercial purposes then the running costs are part of the expenses that are used to LEGALLY minimise the overall nett profit to the parent company *ie* diesel. When she is used to harbour cruise/entertain then she is being used for PRIVATE purposes which you cannot claim as a deduction. You cannot claim a travel allowance for boats.


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> Entertainment expenses. Providing on board business meetings for ASF posters
> 
> Cheers




YES Buckeroo .... You are going to be my next guest speaker at the AGM. All deductible and minutes of the meeting will be recorded and handed to the accountant who will LEGALLY claim this cost under expenses.  Can anyone tell me why I am paying a fuel excise on the diesel that goes into my boats when there are no roads in the ocean? I pay a "Marker conservation" fee to the DPI for all the navigational markers by the way. Alright ....... I do claim back the fuel excise as per Diesel Fuel Rebate Scheme introduced in 1982.


----------



## gooner (5 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> LMAO ... When she is used for commercial purposes then the running costs are part of the expenses that are used to LEGALLY minimise the overall nett profit to the parent company *ie* diesel. When she is used to harbour cruise/entertain then she is being used for PRIVATE purposes which you cannot claim as a deduction. You cannot claim a travel allowance for boats.




Trainspotter,

If you use it to travel from home to work, not deductible. But if you use to travel between two work locations then it would be tax-deductible. So if you use the boat to travel between your office in Melbourne and your office in (ahem) the Whitsundays then running costs are tax deductible.

Of course you need to have an office in the Whitsundays.........


----------



## Buckeroo (5 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> YES Buckeroo .... You are going to be my next guest speaker at the AGM. All deductible and minutes of the meeting will be recorded and handed to the accountant who will LEGALLY claim this cost under expenses.




Anything to help TS and I will be sure to charge you astronomically so as to cover all operating & depreciation costs of your humble yacht.

Cheers


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

gooner said:


> Trainspotter,
> 
> If you use it to travel from home to work, not deductible. But if you use to travel between two work locations then it would be tax-deductible. So if you use the boat to travel between your office in Melbourne and your office in (ahem) the Whitsundays then running costs are tax deductible.
> 
> Of course you need to have an office in the Whitsundays.........




Like my post says Gooner ... Commercial operations, then all expenses are deductible. Private use is not tax deductible. It is a floating office so technically I could be a right bastard and claim the lot but thankfully my accountant is doing the right thing and making sure that a percentage is used for private use.


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> Anything to help TS and I will be sure to charge you astronomically so as to cover all operating & depreciation costs of your humble yacht.
> 
> Cheers




LOLOL ... funny how the income matches the expenses at every AGM I have attended !!!!! Pffffffffffffffttttttttttt !!!!


----------



## Macquack (5 September 2009)

trainspotter said:


> LMAO ... When she is used for *commercial purposes* then the running costs are part of the expenses that are used to LEGALLY minimise the overall nett profit to the parent company *ie* diesel. When she is used to harbour cruise/entertain then she is being used for PRIVATE purposes which you cannot claim as a deduction.






trainspotter said:


> ... Commercial operations, then all expenses are deductible. Private use is not tax deductible. *It is a floating office *so technically I could be a right bastard and claim the lot but thankfully my accountant is doing the right thing and making sure that a percentage is used for private use.




Trainspotter, is that 'fair dinkum' your office?

As a matter of interest, what percentage to you attribute to private usage?


----------



## Krusty the Klown (5 September 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> Entertainment expenses. Providing on board business meetings for ASF posters
> 
> Cheers




Sorry to burst the bubble guys, but entertainment expenses for a business are no longer tax deductible.

I hate being a pedant!


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

Macquack said:


> Trainspotter, is that 'fair dinkum' your office?
> 
> As a matter of interest, what percentage to you attribute to private usage?




One of them yes. How else would I have so many photos of the same boat with me on it? Goes with the pearl farm. One of the aerials plugs into mobile phone for network coverage which in turn plugs into laptop. Laptop plugs into bigscreen TV for presentations. Also handy for excel spreadsheets to be placed on screen to show the workers on the farm which shell to go and get from different lines.  Picture of Seadoo on deck with the 24 footer grey boat being towed behind.  Other picture is from the bow looking at sunrise and the "splash"

Haven't really sat down and worked out the percentages but it depends on the usage at the time. Guessing about 35% is private stuff. Harbour cruises and stuff like that cannot be attributed to the pearl farm. 

Krusty - If I have an AGM on board the boat and a "guest speaker" (we just happen to have it at the pearl farm) then I think you will find it is tax deductible. If not then I am in a world of pain cause the accountant has been doing so??


----------



## trainspotter (5 September 2009)

Pearl farm operation is from November until June/July depending on water temperature. Therefore if boat is used July thru to October cannot claim expenses. Crappy COLD weather anyhow during winter months so boat tends to have maintenance performed (desal plant filters and rubbers replaced etc).

Now back to the bloody tax man - As I have a more complex arrangement with 4 seperate companies performing seperate duties it becomes a nightmare with paperwork. I guess I am just p!ssed that every time I look around I am paying more out, either GST or tax to the ATO yadda yadda yadda. It would be easier just to stop playing the game and stop productions. LOL


----------



## johnnyg (6 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> My Father retired at 54 at the time considered wealthy.
> Today nothing more than a pensioner (who owns a 42 acre farm).
> His $$s have been eroded by inflation and so to will those who sell up today and retire.




Putting that one down in my notes. Might have to start charging happy customers for your words of wisdom tech.


----------



## gooner (6 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> I have no intention of retiring.
> My Father retired at 54 at the time considered wealthy.
> ...




I think the lesson there is to ensure that when you retire (particularly if you do as early as 54) then you put a fair amount of wealth in assets that are not eroded by inflation - property, gold, energy shares, equities generally ('cept banks of course).

If you retire at 54, your life expectancy is probably another 30 years - that's a long time to survive if you only have cash at 4% pa.

And tax is shocking on cash - no 50% CGT benefit.

Must say, current super rules work OK - all money in super is tax free when withdrawn as I understand. So get $1m of equities in your super fund, you can pretty much live off dividends at 5% and still get capital growth.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 October 2018)

Bill 'shock' Shorten has already signalled his intention to deny franking credits to retirees (pollies can still get them though!). The Coalition aren't blameless either, with their current $1.6mill tax cap on super balances.

It's called social engineering, and the elderly are seen as easy targets. No matter that they've slaved away for 40 years and paid all their tax.



> Richard II, now became king of England. John of Gaunt, Richard's uncle, took over much of the responsibility of government. He was closely associated with the new poll-tax (a tax on every adult) that was introduced in February 1377. *Four pence was to be taken from every man and woman over the age of fourteen.*
> 
> In 1379 Richard called a parliament in an attempt to raise money to pay for the war against the French (later known as the Hundred Years War). After much debate it was decided to introduce a second poll tax. It was to be a graduated tax, which meant that the richer you were, the more tax you paid. For example, John of Gaunt had to pay £6.13s.4d., whereas a poor peasant was only charged 4d.




The reasoning behind taxation stretches way back and doesn't really fit the definition of social engineering . Labor want to raise more funds to cover their profiligacy when next elected government. Liberal are near running a surplus budget for the first time in 10 years. (2019-20)


----------



## willy1111 (5 October 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Bill 'shock' Shorten has already signalled his intention to deny franking credits to retirees (pollies can still get them though!)




Geoff Wilson from WAM Capital is taking the fight to them with a petition - has been getting a bit of media coverage, but only has 17,000 odd thousand signed the petition.  

With more than a million people effected by it, surely he should be able to get a lot more signatures, just a matter of getting the word out there.

For those wanting to sign the petition http://wilsonassetmanagement.com.au/petition/


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2018)

ATO computers can't make legally binding decisions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-05/tax-office-computer-says-yes-federal-court-says-no/10341548


----------



## BlindSquirrel (23 July 2019)

This thread will do, I guess:
While I'm still learning to play nice with CFDs, I've managed to lose a bit of money this last financial year. Am I able to carry these forward in preparation for the time in future when I might "get it" and start making money with them? I'm sure that if I trade well then these gains will be classed as income and the taxman will want a cut...


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> This thread will do, I guess:
> While I'm still learning to play nice with CFDs, I've managed to lose a bit of money this last financial year. Am I able to carry these forward in preparation for the time in future when I might "get it" and start making money with them? I'm sure that if I trade well then these gains will be classed as income and the taxman will want a cut...




Any losses should be able to be written off against profits in that year.

Capital losses can be carried forward.

But probably speak to accountant.


----------



## rnr (24 July 2019)

@BlindSquirrel 
If you Google the statement below you will get access to a considerable amount of info for you to consider.

CFD taxation on gains and losses - ATO Community


----------



## barney (24 July 2019)

rnr said:


> @BlindSquirrel
> CFD taxation on gains and losses - ATO Community




It depends on how the ATO perceives your trading exploits. ie. Trading as an Investment or trading as a business. Link below:-

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Capi...ng-as-investor-or-share-trading-as-business-/


----------



## BlindSquirrel (24 July 2019)

From what I can surmise, it is assessable on revenue account and any net losses are non-commercial losses.
So I'm correct in that if I win, I get taxed; if I don't then I don't get to offset it against my income and can't carry if forward for future. I'd best git gud soon then!

Thanks to all for your help.


----------



## rnr (24 July 2019)

barney said:


> It depends on how the ATO perceives your trading exploits. ie. Trading as an Investment or trading as a business. Link below:-
> 
> https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Capi...ng-as-investor-or-share-trading-as-business-/




@barney 
As per your link, the guidelines as laid out, albeit in a broad-brush format, are sufficient to determine whether you are a trading or investing. Your actions will need to back up your choice.


----------



## rnr (24 July 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> From what I can surmise, it is assessable on revenue account and any net losses are non-commercial losses.
> *So I'm correct in that if I win, I get taxed; if I don't then I don't get to offset it against my income and can't carry if forward for future.* I'd best git gud soon then!
> 
> Thanks to all for your help.




@BlindSquirrel 
I don't understand how you have arrived at that conclusion.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (24 July 2019)

I should clarify: I don't get to offset the losses against my regular salary. I can offset those losses against profits from trading CFDs but the excess losses are not able to be carried forward or offset against regular income.

ATO on non-commercial losses: "You can't claim a loss for a business that is little more than a hobby or lifestyle choice. Even if it has business-like characteristics, if it is unlikely to ever make a profit and doesn't have a significant commercial purpose or character, you can't offset the loss against your other income."


----------



## barney (24 July 2019)

rnr said:


> Your actions will need to back up your choice.





[COLOR=#000000]Yeah you are kind of judged relative to how you trade, so the ATO/Tax man/ accountant you use may determine how your trading (tax wise) is structured …[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000000]Given it's a bit of a grey area taxation wise, best each person gets suitable personal advice relative to their own circumstances …… my circumstances are likely different to most …. but in saying that, the previous ATO link is a good guide to start with and discuss with your accountant.:)[/COLOR]
ps Sorry about the "bold" and apparently "green"… It happens from time to time and I have no idea how to fix it lol


----------



## rnr (24 July 2019)

barney said:


> [COLOR=#000000]Yeah you are kind of judged relative to how you trade, so the ATO/Tax man/ accountant you use may determine how your trading (tax wise) is structured …[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=#000000]Given it's a bit of a grey area taxation wise, best each person gets suitable personal advice relative to their own circumstances …… my circumstances are likely different to most …. but in saying that, the previous ATO link is a good guide to start with and discuss with your accountant.:)[/COLOR]
> ps Sorry about the "bold" and apparently "green"… It happens from time to time and I have no idea how to fix it lol




@barney

Yes Barney I totally agree with your comment in relation to getting independent advice, however there is a large amount of info on the ATO site that will allow you to be prepared for that interview with a tax accountant.

And here's me thinking you were just making a bold statement to my reply!


----------



## barney (24 July 2019)

rnr said:


> @barney
> 
> Yes Barney I totally agree with your comment in relation to getting independent advice
> 
> And here's me thinking you were just making a bold statement to my reply!





Bold!! …….. mmmm …… not my style  lol …….


----------



## HelloU (25 July 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> This thread will do, I guess:
> While I'm still learning to play nice with CFDs, I've managed to lose a bit of money this last financial year. Am I able to carry these forward in preparation for the time in future when I might "get it" and start making money with them? I'm sure that if I trade well then these gains will be classed as income and the taxman will want a cut...



https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?docid=TXR/TR200515/NAT/ATO/00001


----------

