# EFX Group - Welcome



## efx_justin (24 January 2008)

Hello Everyone ~

This is Justin LeBlang from EFX group. A client of ours recently informed me of this site and said there might be some users who have questions I may be able to answer - so here I am. 

I'm not here to promote EFX....however I will make myself available to anyone who has questions, concerns or just wants to talk about Forex in general. 

I look forward to hearing from you.


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## tayser (24 January 2008)

Hi justin,

Sorry, broken record first question 

Any update on offering AUD denominated accounts? Or at least some reporting mechanism which can historically report our profit / loss (which is currently recorded in USD) in AUD on our statements?

And also, this is slightly more technical: can you confirm how the akamai technology will work?  i.e from my understanding the price quotes we'll see in the FX Board and Level II - in Navigator or Remote Trader - are streaming from a proxy farm in Australia, yet our orders need to travel to your data centre somewhere on the US west coast - is this correct?

thanks again.

cheers.


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## nizar (24 January 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Hello Everyone ~
> 
> This is Justin LeBlang from EFX group. A client of ours recently informed me of this site and said there might be some users who have questions I may be able to answer - so here I am.
> 
> ...




Hi Justin,

I have been following your FF Thread with interest.

I have a question for you:
Does EFX have server-side automated trading and if not yet when will this become available?

Thanks.


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## KamiCrazy (24 January 2008)

I recently asked MBT/EFX about forex accounts in AUD denominations and they said no.

It didn't seem like they had any plans to implement it either.


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## efx_justin (25 January 2008)

nizar said:


> Hi Justin,
> 
> I have been following your FF Thread with interest.
> 
> ...




nizar ~ 

At this time we do not offer server-side automated trading in house, though some third party providers do offer such services via our API. 

It is our goal in 2008 to offer automated trading....stay tuned for that announcment. NO ETA though.


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## efx_justin (25 January 2008)

tayser said:


> Hi justin,
> 
> Sorry, broken record first question
> 
> ...




tayser ~ 

No word on non-USD denominated accounts, though it is a goal of 2008. 

With regards to your next question; 

Actually, this is not correct. First of all, this does not apply to Navigator. Secondly, in regard to Remote Trader, the Akamai technology speeds the process of finding a more direct route between our servers and you. Typically, there is a fixed way that information will route throughout a country. So to us the US as an example, if I’m in New York and connected to LA, the information might pass through 25 routers back and forth. Each touch of a router slows information slightly (all measured in milliseconds). The concept of the Akamai technology is that it hops out of the local chain and looks for faster ways to get there. This might involve catching a direct route from New York to LA. The key is that it gets out of the country as fast as possible in making the connection. Having said that, obviously, the further away from us you are, the more distance information has to travel. That is unavoidable. We are an ECN, which means that there is a lot of benefit to having your orders sitting on our server when possible as you can be hit on the bid and ask. However, outside of that type of scenario, you would obviously have a slight degradation in time between when you click a button and when the order gets to us versus someone down the street from us. But it should all still be in milliseconds and should not affect your trading.

Hope this helps.


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## tayser (25 January 2008)

Thanks for clarifying.  

I might end up biting the bullet and opening a standard account in a month or two, I'll hold out for AUD though.


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## efx_justin (26 January 2008)

tayser said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> I might end up biting the bullet and opening a standard account in a month or two, I'll hold out for AUD though.




Hopefully by then I'll have some good news for you.


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## nizar (26 January 2008)

efx_justin said:


> nizar ~
> 
> At this time we do not offer server-side automated trading in house, though some third party providers do offer such services via our API.
> 
> It is our goal in 2008 to offer automated trading....stay tuned for that announcment. NO ETA though.




Hi Justin,

2008 looks like its gonna be a great year then!
But what do you mean by "ETA" ?


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## Stormin_Norman (26 January 2008)

tayser said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> I might end up biting the bullet and opening a standard account in a month or two, I'll hold out for AUD though.




What makes you want to wait for that company in particular? I have been dealing with www.gft.com.au/ and they seem quite good, and have AUD accounts.


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## Sean K (26 January 2008)

nizar said:


> But what do you mean by "ETA" ?



Must have an Army background.

ETA: Estimated Time of Arrival
FLOT: Forward Line Own Troops
FOB: Forward Operating Base
BSG: Brigade Support Group

....

You get the picture.

All useful terms for discussing the market...


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## tayser (26 January 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> What makes you want to wait for that company in particular? I have been dealing with www.gft.com.au/ and they seem quite good, and have AUD accounts.




I have a feeling that their retail accounts are only a deal desk / market-making platform, these kinds of brokers actively deter people from scalping.  

EFX are an ECN and only care about the commission they get from your trades - the market-making is done at the bank / liquidity level (i.e EFX are like E*trade or CommSec: they route orders to the banks (exchanges in the equities example)) whereas brokers who are the market-maker need to hedge your positions in order for them to remain profitable and when you scalp & are only in the market for seconds, they don't have time to react.

Interactive Brokers are an ECN as well, but you need $10k to open an account, it's only $400USD at EFX.  Put it this way, if a true blue Aussie FX ECN started up for retail-level accounts, I'd jump ship immediately, ASIC/APRA regulation, bank deposits in Australia, reporting all in AUD (as well as proper financial year end statements on June 30)... yes please.


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## >Apocalypto< (26 January 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> What makes you want to wait for that company in particular? I have been dealing with www.gft.com.au/ and they seem quite good, and have AUD accounts.




Mate please, 

GFT are a market maker, EFX is a ecn. on top of that I would choose IG or CMC over GFT any day of the week. just compare their spreads!

On another note there XJO index is really rubbish I was on the phone with another member last year talking shop, he has a account with GFT we compared the xjo index price GFT and IG offered GFT showed a price 20 point above were the xjo went that day during our market times! (not overnight)

IG was 2 over GFT 20 over the day high of the actual xjo. Mate apart deal book 360 GFT are a joke. and yes I have had a demo with them.

Anyway sorry for the rant Justin. From a FX point of view you will save a fortune on over priced spreads trading EFX over GFT. That's a no brainer!

Norman not a personal shot.


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## Stormin_Norman (26 January 2008)

Trade_It said:


> Mate please,
> 
> GFT are a market maker, EFX is a ecn. on top of that I would choose IG or CMC over GFT any day of the week. just compare their spreads!
> 
> ...




no, that's why i asked the question.

on the practical difference between ecn's and market makers:

i take positions for a more extended period of time then many on here discuss. 2 or 4 point spread on the AUD/USD does not really worry me, as i am not looking to slice the edge of the inter hour cycles.

however, if being a market maker means that their price quoted is significantly different from the major bank market (in a negative effect) that is a concern.

and you say gft are a joke, ambit only after using a demo of their system. what led you to that conclusion?


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## >Apocalypto< (26 January 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> no, that's why i asked the question.
> 
> on the practical difference between ecn's and market makers:
> 
> ...




Hi Norman,

I think they're are a joke for two reasons. The spreads are two high. No matter what your trading style those 1-2 extra pips add up on all the stops and they know that.. 2 the sales people there are way too pushy, one guy there was calling me once a week to get me to go live even after I explained to him I want to run demo for a month to get to know the deal book. He did not listen and kept calling me. On the last call I told him I would not have money to trade for 3 months. He has never called back 

They have to keep their price and the interbank as close as possible or customer would leave. Market makers are famous for re quoting and jacking spreads at news releases. 

If u traded a pair like the Looney USD/CAD or the swissy USD/CHF then the savings you would get trading with EFX as opposed to GFT are quite significant. Like Tayser said EFX are commissioned based and GFT are spread based.

Apart from the data feed deal book is a good program I will give them that. It's very similar to Meta trader 4 as well. Look I don't hate them, based on my personal experience they're not for me. 

If your happy and things are going well, then great.


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## efx_justin (31 January 2008)

I wrote this for another forum about a year ago...I have to break it into two parts for it to fit on the forum, but I think you'll find it very informative. 

Part 1. 

*How Does a NDD Actually Work?*

There are many keys to understanding the Forex markets, and there are many parallels between the Forex markets today and the stock market back in 1995 and 1996 when ECN technology like ISLD and ARCA were coming about. The non-deal-desk system is the really the beginning step of the process of making the Forex markets a truly “transparent” market with “best pricing” available electronically straight to the customer. In order for there to ultimately be a true market for Forex (such as exists for stocks and futures); companies will need to take several steps to move away from the traditional (and rigged) deal desk systems. I’d like to discuss many of those steps now.

I do want to say up front that I work for a non-deal-desk platform (EFX GROUP / MBTF). I don’t want there to be any confusion about that. If someone thinks that any of my points are biased because I work for a NDD platform and not a traditional deal desk platform, I’d be happy to discuss it with them here or in private, and I will respond to any comments/questions.

These are the things that I think separate a true NDD platform, such as ours, from other platforms, and then I have some comments about the Forex market and the average Forex trader beyond that.

1)	Direct access to the biggest piece of the market possible. This is really the key to it all. A deal desk is basically a trader trading against a professional on a desk who can decide when and when not to sell to them. An NDD platform, before everything else, has no one working for the platform whose job and income are based on making money against the clients of the firm. When we execute a trade, it is executed purely electronically, without bias, without human intervention, and at the best price that our system could find at the time. I think this little fact is something that people overlook. We are paid on the commission on the trade, just like in the stock, futures, and options markets. Our incentive is therefore to get the best price possible to keep the customers happy. Deal desk platforms operate in an entirely different manner. They only make money when the clients lose money. Playing with a deal desk is like gambling in Vegas. It always favors the house because of the spread. They control if and when you get executed. We have interest in the spreads being tight and the executions being the best that they can be. In fact, the better that we do for our clients, the better that we do overall.

2)	Execution should be no different whether you are closing or opening a trade. Many of the traditional deal desk platforms separate positions as “open” versus “closing,” which is what leads to something like “hedging.” The reason that they do this is because they believe that the average Forex client loses 6.7% per month in Forex (NOTE: that is the average based on their system, which means some people make and some people lose). Therefore, when someone is closing a position, they usually just accept the other side. When someone is entering a position, they might not. Why should this be the case? Why should someone who is long the EURUSD and selling it get a better fill than someone who is shorting the EURUSD at the same moment? They shouldn’t. I’ll talk about hedging in a moment.

3)	A related point here is therefore anonymity. The system should not care where the trade is coming from. It should not care whether that person is starting a new position or closing an existing one in the same direction. Try opening an account with a deal desk platform and trading for six months. If you are making money, then open a second account under a different name. Try to buy in both accounts at the same time. The new account will get filled, while the account that is making money might get slipped or requoted at the same moment. Why is this the case? Because the platforms (all of them) profile their clients, trade against them, and make sure that the clients who are making money start to get worse fills. Remember that if you were the guy on the desk and you took the opposite side of every trade, you would want to slow down the people that were making money too because they are making money against you by default. A true NDD platform shouldn’t care who the trade is coming from when it executes. I can tell you right now that when it comes to the EFX GROUP / MBTF system, a sell order to close a long position and a short order that are put in simultaneously on the EURUSD will be filled at the prevailing market price together, period.

4)	No requoting. Deal desks mark certain accounts as “A list” clients. This means that the clients are good traders that are showing signs of being successful. “B list” clients are the rest of the client base. “B list” clients are set to auto-execute against the platform because they lose on average. “A list” clients are not. In fact, "A list" clients in a fast market are often shown pop-up windows that say “The price is no longer here, would you prefer to pay this price.” NDD platforms never requote. Either the order is marketable, or it isn’t.

5)	A non-deal-desk system lets you know everything that they are making off of you. Would I rather trade on a deal desk, where I spend 3 pips to buy the EURUSD, and then later, 3 pips to sell the EURUSD, or would I rather trade on a system that lets me get executed by the true market, which includes customers and banks, with the narrowest spreads possible, and get charged a fee. The answer is the latter.

6)	ECN vs. STP vs. Deal Desk. It needs to be made clear that there are really more than two types of platforms. A deal desk is a fixed spread platform where the desk makes their money in the spread trading against all of their customers. This rigs the market against the retail trader because they aren’t seeing true market quotes. The platform can move their quote wherever they need if they want to fill the client. STP (Straight Through Processing) platforms execute directly from the retail client to the banks. The more banks and liquidity in the system, the better the fills for the customer. ECN (Electronic Communications Network) platforms let customer orders interact with other customer orders. Non-deal-desk (NDD) platforms are either the second or third type of platform. EFX GROUP / MBTF are both. We have over a dozen banks in our network which customers execute against directly (STP), but we now also allow customers to hit other customers (ECN) inside of the standard pip increments of the banks. We do not shave anything against customer executions.


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## efx_justin (31 January 2008)

Part 2:

Having said all of that, I’d like to make a few additional points about the Forex markets, execution, and our platform.  In reality, the retail Forex world is made up largely of unsophisticated traders who have not traded anything before. You can usually recognize these people because they are looking to trade at higher margin levels and expect executions that the market cannot provide. The Forex markets are more highly leveraged than the futures market. We offer 100 to 1 leverage. Professionals rarely use 20 to 1 leverage. Retail traders with no experience are constantly looking for higher leverage, up to 400 to 1, which shows their lack of experience. Few of these traders last long in the Forex markets.  In addition, there are many people who think that they are “entitled” to fills because they want to buy at certain prices. This happens most commonly on “news spikes” due to economic data. People try to place market orders on the news and then are surprised if their fills arrive within a split second, but 30 or 40 or 50 pips away from where the market was before the news. Few of these people actually understand what they are trading. Let’s consider a few points.

In exchange rate terms, $0.01 of movement between the Euro and USD is 100 pips. That means that if news comes out and the EURUSD moves 30 pips in a second, that’s $0.003. In other words, it is not measurable in real terms. However, a trader trading at 100 to 1 margin may expect that they should be filled at a price that existed before the news hit. When I ask traders if they would be willing to sell the EURUSD at the price it was trading at before news hit that caused a 30 pip spike, they say no. But they expect that banks will make those prices available. In other words, they aren’t willing to accept the consequences of a “market.” Trading on economic news in the Forex world is the most dangerous type of trading that one can do. Having said that, let’s consider what the various platforms offer to protect the trader.

Traditional deal desk platforms offer very little in this regard. The trader is either buying or selling or doing nothing. Orders are largely market and stop (market) orders. However, STP and ECN platforms (which are both NDD platforms, and EFX handles BOTH of these types of orders) execute any marketable orders instantaneously. That means if you are a buyer at the market and there is a seller at a price and no one has bought from him/her ahead of you, you are filled at that price. It is a true market. There is nothing that says that you deserved to get filled 20 pips back because that would have made you money.

The Forex market has come a long way in the last two years. Traders should look for platforms that offer the following:

1)	Fraud protection in the form of Fidelity bonds.
2)	Segregation of client money.
3)	True executions.
4)	Lots of liquidity.
5)	A good variety of order types, which professional traders should use to control their risk. No one should EVER place a market order when they can limit themselves to fills 5 or 10 pips above the market.

On a true STP/ECN Forex platform, no trader that understands executions should ever have issues with getting extremely bad fills (slippage). Everything should be in-line.

I have spent a lot of time watching thousands of people trade the Forex markets. Forex is a very exciting market with massive liquidity. With platforms like EFX GROUP / MBTF, which offer true STP and ECN technology, it should be a true “trader’s market,” as long as that doesn’t suggest to traders that they are entitled to fills that don’t exist in fast markets or that reckless use of market orders should always be rewarded. 

When the exchange rate between the Euro and the US Dollar moves $0.01 in a day, that’s 100 pips. This is a microscopic move that is only remotely tradable because of the leverage used in the Forex markets. I think a lot of people have expectations that go well beyond reason when it comes to the Forex markets.  I think that things are moving closer to a centralized market place with good regulation about the limits to which a seller or buyer can price themselves away from the market but still fill a retail client. I think within a year or two, platforms like EFX GROUP / MBTF will have completely altered the landscape of Forex just like ISLD and ARCA did in the US stock market back in 1995-7. In the meantime, stick to the platform that safeguards your money, gives you the most options, and provides you with direct, unhindered access to the liquidity that is out there. Make sure that your funds are secure from fraud and protected from co-mingling with your platform. Make sure that your funds are held on-shore, not off-shore. 

With all of that, it’s just about your trading skills.


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## efx_justin (31 January 2008)

tayser said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> I might end up biting the bullet and opening a standard account in a month or two, I'll hold out for AUD though.




Update on non-USD accounts:

I was given this post from our VP in regard to the issue of foreign currency deposits.

“The process of accepting foreign deposits took a turn that was unexpected in December. We made all of the arrangements easily with our primary bank to accept foreign deposits, which required that an additional deposit be held with them. To expedite the process, we were allowing wired funds only, no foreign checks, as part of the risk of foreign deposits is that other countries allow funds to clear for trading the minute that the check arrives, and that can obviously put us at risk if the funds don’t ultimately clear. So we were ready to go.

From a programming perspective, it is actually quite simple to allow Navigator to become based in another currency. That part is quite easy, and the trading would function properly.

We ran into a different issue. At the end of the day, you have PnL and commissions that have to be paid to us. Let’s say that your account is GBP-based. While the system can obviously convert the commission rate at the time of the transaction to equate to your standard account commissions (let’s call it $5 per $100,000 US, which is the basic commission for retail customers), we don’t actually receive that in USD until we convert. It is not feasible to convert on a constant basis throughout the day, and yet, the exchange rate will fluctuate by the point of settlement. That means that between the time that the trade is run and the time that we would choose to convert the currency back and forth, it might not be $5 per $100,000 (could be higher, could be lower, but it becomes a variable). At the same time, PnL has to end up in customer accounts based on transactions that occurred at the bank level through us in USD. Again, based on the change in the exchange rate, this puts MB at substantial potential risk and leaves a lot of uncertainty. Obviously, when anything becomes variable in business, even if it could fall into your favor potentially on any given day, it has to be analyzed differently.

Since coming to this realization, we are having various discussions with parties to see what we can do, and we will make an ultimate decision once we have explored all options thoroughly and believe that we have the best solution, most importantly for our global customer base. Obviously, we will then let the public know. I will not give an ETA on this process. We pride ourselves on doing what we say that we can do, and this one definitely caught us off-guard just as we thought we were ready to go. For that, we definitely apologize.

Chris”

That’s all I can give you guys on this one for now.


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## nizar (31 January 2008)

Thanks justin for your contributions, good stuff.


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## efx_justin (31 January 2008)

nizar said:


> Thanks justin for your contributions, good stuff.




Thank you Nizar - you're welcome.


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## Temjin (31 January 2008)

Thanks for the detailed explanation as well EFX_Justin. It was very enlightening. 

So my understanding so far is the retail forex industry was largely dominated by deal desk brokers for an extended period of time, and it is only till recently, brokers like you are now offering STP and ECN platforms that have the potential to revolutionise the industry? 

To tell the truth, I have heard very little about the differences between Deal Desk & STP/ECN platforms 2 years ago. It is only in the last year that more and more people (i.e. the general, unsophisticated traders) start to talk about it. 

Looks like the forex retail industry has still a long long way to go. 

Another question, would you offer "any size" trade like OANDA? 

I don't know if OANDA is a market maker or a true ECN, but I have heard conflicting reports on this and it seem to be somewhere in the middle.

Regardless, the ability to make any size trade based on a fixed commission (with minimum) is very attractive to me. This gives us tremondous advantage when it comes to taking full advantage of our position sizing strategies.


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## Stormin_Norman (31 January 2008)

thank you for that information justin. that is what i had been trawling the internet for, and you provided it in one fowl swoop. 

the non-biased formation of your system is really appealing.

could i ask a favour.

one trade (in + out) is supposedly worth 4 pips on the AUD/USD. that in AUD equates to $40 per trade (all else like desk dealings held equal).

at say .9000 AUD/USD rate, what would a simultaneous entry and exit cost me under the ecn/efx system?


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## tayser (31 January 2008)

I assume $40 means you're trading with a standard lot (100,000)?

$9USD ($10AUD) @ 0.9000 in roundtrip commission (1pip) on EFX + spread.


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## Stormin_Norman (31 January 2008)

tayser said:


> I assume $40 means you're trading with a standard lot (100,000)?
> 
> $9USD ($10AUD) @ 0.9000 in roundtrip commission (1pip) on EFX + spread.




atm the spread is 1 pip. so it would be half the price.

the spread then is out to 3. so it would be the same price as currently.

i understand how the price is reflected. it seems like a much better system then being fed through a drip tube via a market maker.

i have just downloaded your demo, is there a graph add-on or something? because i cant seem to replicate the graphs i see other's using efx do.


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## ithatheekret (31 January 2008)

I'm interested , what is the minimum account Justin ?

I'm not worry about the currency regime , I always like to know the open for business times though . 

One example : 25/12/07 The Emps birthday , all my platforms bar one weren't open , forcing me to crawl to my brother to use his Oanda a/c . 

Which saw Japanese interests play with the Yen that day , I manage a piece of the action , but the difficulties was the fact that all profit was in my brothers name , who copped the tax for it . It's a lot of paper work with the ATO .

I used to have an Oanda account myself , but closed many shops when we moved back out to the country . Have been thinking of opening another due to there open times and market availablity to the trader .

If you can do the same I'm very interested , because I have had slippage problems before with Oanda and there's no real phone services except for service difficulties .

I have a few FX a/c but I try to keep them for seperate trades if at all possible , so there is no conflict in my margin when movements counteract positions held , some I'm willing to ride out , others [positions] force me to close out the position to enable further coverage in the moving instrument .

Feel free to PM me and I will send you my email address for correspondence .

regards ,

Mark


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## nizar (31 January 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Professionals rarely use 20 to 1 leverage.




Tend to agree.
Here is something I found on another article:



> Yet leverage has a point of diminishing returns, says Todd Crosland, chief executive officer of Interbank FX. By analyzing trends among Interbank's some 10,000 accounts, he noticed "the good money managers who trade with us and make money in this market just use a little bit of leverage, like 5-to-1," he says.




Temjin - OANDA is a market maker.


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## Temjin (31 January 2008)

nizar said:


> Tend to agree.
> Here is something I found on another article:




Because successful money managers tend to have millions of dollars (if not tens or even hundreds) under management. By then I would have significantly reduced my position size through reduction of leverage for fear of moving the market or just getting bad fills. When real professionals play with hundred of millions of dollar, leverage become non-existance. 



> Temjin - OANDA is a market maker.




They seem to operate like an ECN as well, but also as a market maker. As you posted, the automatic trader that was interviewed was probably making lots of money. A deal desk would have got rid of the guy by making his fills misersable. hehe


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

Temjin ~ 

You're very welcome. 

_So my understanding so far is the retail Forex industry was largely dominated by deal desk brokers for an extended period of time, and it is only till recently, brokers like you are now offering STP and ECN platforms that have the potential to revolutionize the industry? _

This is correct – ECN trading in the Forex markets is still a fairly new concept, but the concept of ECN has been around for a long time and since it revolutionized the stock market with groups like Island and ARCA, don’t be surprised if over the next 24 months you see more and more brokers trying to offer their version of TRUE ECN. 

_Looks like the Forex retail industry has still a long long way to go._

It does, but things are getting there and over the past 4 years we have already seen tremendous changes that have only been beneficial for the industry. 

_Another question, would you offer "any size" trade like OANDA? _

EFX does not differentiate between mini and standard accounts. We offer the ability to handle increments as low as .1 lot or 1000 currency units and open an account with as little as $400. A true ECN STP platform with good working relationships with the banks should be able to achieve this. 

_I don't know if OANDA is a market maker or a true ECN, but I have heard conflicting reports on this and it seem to be somewhere in the middle._

I prefer not to comment as I try not to concern myself with other brokers, but I’ll refer you back to “How Does an NDD Actual Work” article…from there you should be able to ask Oanda enough questions to decide the truth.  

_Regardless, the ability to make any size trade based on a fixed commission (with minimum) is very attractive to me. This gives us tremendous advantage when it comes to taking full advantage of our position sizing strategies._


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> thank you for that information justin. that is what i had been trawling the internet for, and you provided it in one fowl swoop.
> 
> the non-biased formation of your system is really appealing.
> 
> ...




Stormin ~ 

You're welcome. 

Commissions are based on total dollar amount traded: $5.00 per 100,000 USD traded. Here are some examples including the AUD/USD; 

*USD/JPY *	 $5.00 per 100,000 traded ($10.00 roundtrip) + 1 pip = 2 pips total

*USD/CAD*	$5.00 per 100,000 traded ($10.00 roundtrip) + 1 pip = 2 pips total

*USD/CHF* 	$5.00 per 100,000 traded ($10.00 roundtrip) + 1 pip = 2 pips total

*EUR/USD* 	$5.00 * EUR Exchange Rate 	($1.48) = $7.40 ($14.80 roundtrip) $14.80 + 1 pip = 2.5 pips

*AUD/USD *	$5.00 * AUD Exchange Rate 	($0.89) = $4.45 ($8.90 roundtrip) $8.90 + 1 pip = 1.9 pip total approx

*GBP/USD*	$5.00 * GBP Exchange Rate 	($1.99) = $9.95 ($19.90 roundtrip) $19.90 + 1 pip = 3 pips total

**For higher volume traders are commissions do scale down **


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

*FOR EVERYONE: *

For those who have just downloaded our demo:

Training material - http://www.efxgroup.com/events.php

You may also email me at justin@efxgroup.com for my "Trading Layout" which I built for the Navigator. Many traders have found it very clean and easy to use. 

I will also send you a detailed PDF with Order Type examples.


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

ithatheekret ~ 

Minimum deposit to open an account is $400 which you can trade as little as .1 lot or 1000 currency units. 

EFX is open 24 hours a day (closed Friday at 5pm EST and reopen Sunday at 5pm EST) for traders who are outside of the US and need to contact us...I suggest using our LIVE HELPER found on our website at www.efxgroup.com.


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## ithatheekret (1 February 2008)

Thanks Justin will visit and look the site over  , the minimum is very low , I was thinking more around 10-15K , but I like to bring profits out straight away and keep a till float to operate with , if you understand what I mean ....

Where are you based ?


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> Thanks Justin will visit and look the site over  , the minimum is very low , I was thinking more around 10-15K , but I like to bring profits out straight away and keep a till float to operate with , if you understand what I mean ....
> 
> Where are you based ?




I certainly do...

We have offices in Phoenix, Arizona and El Segundo, California.


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## ithatheekret (1 February 2008)

That's the first gold star you've got .... US based no worries .


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> That's the first gold star you've got .... US based no worries .




WOOHOO!


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## ithatheekret (1 February 2008)

Are you in the desert or in the LA County office ?


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> Are you in the desert or in the LA County office ?




I personally am in the desert - Scottsdale, AZ to be exact. Busy week here...we have the Phoenix Open Golf Tournament and the Super Bowl.


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## ithatheekret (1 February 2008)

Ah , that's why I asked , who you got the Giants or the Patriots ?

I've got $300 on the Giants to win .


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> Ah , that's why I asked , who you got the Giants or the Patriots ?
> 
> I've got $300 on the Giants to win .




Trading against the trend?


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## ithatheekret (1 February 2008)

Just a contrarian  and the odds were good . risk /reward ratio


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## nizar (1 February 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Stormin ~
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> ...




What does the + 1 pip mean?

Does this mean that the spread for all these pairs mentioned above is typically 0.5 pip?

So that the total (round trip) spread cost is 1 pip?

I'd love to see those GBP/JPY spreads come down, though I understand yours are already one of the best in the market.


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## efx_justin (1 February 2008)

nizar said:


> What does the + 1 pip mean?
> 
> Does this mean that the spread for all these pairs mentioned above is typically 0.5 pip?
> 
> ...




The majority of our currency pairs will have a 1/10th - 1 PIP spread at any given time - of course during times when the market is slow (banks are closed) the spreads might widen slightly, but whose trading at those hours anyway? 

GBP/JPY has an average spread of 3-5 pips...thats pretty good. Sometimes you'll see at 2, but just figure 3-5.


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## tayser (4 February 2008)

Justin, just some administrative questions...

When you're a live client, what sort of reports are available?  Is there simply a monthly statement which gets emailed / mailed out, or is there a facility whereby we can generate our own statements based on the timeframes we specify?  Also is there any option to obtain reports in excel/csv formats?

Australia's financial year is July 1 to June 30, and to be compliant with the ATO we simply need a total for profit, a total for loss and a total for commissions charged for that year (we need to report profit + commission - loss in $AUD on our tax returns) - do you have any mock up / dummy statements available that we can get a look at?  

Throwing this question wide open to anyone:  When we are recording P/L in a non-AUD currency and on a frequent basis - such as when trading with an EFX account, will just getting the AUD/USD exchange rate for the end of the day suffice for converting our USD into AUD?  or does the ATO require the exact exchange rate (To the pip!) on AUD/USD at the time when each single P/L is realised?

I'm trying to think of what extra administrative tasks we need to do when trading in a non-AUD currency, i.e if we can elect a single exchange rate for the day then that would be the simplest, but if its the exchange rate at the time of realising the P/L then you have a fair bit of work to do, and when you want to go straight back into a trade, it might adversely affect it (well with my trading style anyhow)....

cheers.


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## Stormin_Norman (4 February 2008)

tayser said:


> Throwing this question wide open to anyone:  When we are recording P/L in a non-AUD currency and on a frequent basis - such as when trading with an EFX account, will just getting the AUD/USD exchange rate for the end of the day suffice for converting our USD into AUD?  or does the ATO require the exact exchange rate (To the pip!) on AUD/USD at the time when each single P/L is realised?




i'd ring them up/email them and ask. perhaps even its just the exchange rate at the time of the exchanges? (ie deposit the money in and withdraw it out).

will efx deal with australian shelf companies?


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## disarray (4 February 2008)

because the money in your account is held overseas, it is out of the influence of the ATO.

eg. you send $10,000 to the US to open your EFX account and trade your way to $100,000 (well done). the ATO isn't involved, it has nothing to do with them until you bring the money home so pips, points, exchange rates, gains or losses are irrelevant for taxation purposes.

now bringing the money home is another matter. so say you now have $100,000 in your EFX account and decide to bring all that money home for safe keeping, the first $10,000 you don't declare because it was the original $10,000 you sent out of the country in the first place. the next $90,000 is added to your taxable income and you have to pay tax on that at whatever your rate is.

basically the ATO has nothing to do with your trading account because it is held overseas, it is only when you bring the money back into the country that the ATO gets involved and by this stage all individuals gains/losses/exchanges etc. have already been factored into your account balance, theres no need to overcomplicate things.

looking for ways to bring the money back while minimising tax is another matter entirely


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## tayser (4 February 2008)

I understand what you're saying (although I'm a bit iffy on the 'it's out of the influence of the ATO bit), and quite obviously I want to bring money back into Australia! 

But the concern is how / when you convert to AUD from USD.  I do want to regularly withdraw from EFX and bring back to Australia so I can live etc.

Anyhow, I took storming_norman's advice, I sent an email to the ATO re: when you have to convert (i.e when it's realised, or when you bring the money back into Australia), I'll post the response when I get one.


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## efx_justin (5 February 2008)

tayser said:


> Justin, just some administrative questions...
> 
> When you're a live client, what sort of reports are available?  Is there simply a monthly statement which gets emailed / mailed out, or is there a facility whereby we can generate our own statements based on the timeframes we specify?  Also is there any option to obtain reports in excel/csv formats?
> 
> ...




Tayser ~ 

Live clients have access to FULL reporting of all trading activity broken down by four types of reports; 

1. *Cash Activity* - this report will show all deposits/withdrawals/debits & credits.

2. *Trade Confirmation* - this report will break down each and every trade that executed; trade date, buy/sell, volume, symbol, price, PnL

3. *Order History* - this report will give you a history of all trades executed or not (stops, limits, market orders, etc).

4. *Account Statement* - this report you'll use for taxes and financial reporting. A full report of your opening and closing balance, premiums debited or credited, PnL on trades & total commissions.


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## tayser (5 February 2008)

And the frequency of the reports?  Configurable by user or on a set timeframe like monthly?  

cheers.


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## efx_justin (5 February 2008)

tayser said:


> And the frequency of the reports?  Configurable by user or on a set timeframe like monthly?
> 
> cheers.




Daily, Monthly, Yearly, Start Date.


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## IFocus (5 February 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> Ah , that's why I asked , who you got the Giants or the Patriots ?
> 
> I've got $300 on the Giants to win .




ithatheekret looks like a good start to the week.....


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## ithatheekret (5 February 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Trading against the trend?




Trend reversal ........

PS...... Hi IFocus , Every week is a good week as long as the sun keeps rising in the morning and I'm there to see it , they just made it and that was good enough .


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## ithatheekret (5 February 2008)

Just saw Tyree take the catch , he got it ......... on the back end of the ball and held it on his dome , unreal , the pass   was pretty darn good too .

After seeing Tyree point towards his mum ( in heaven ) that money is headed for the Salvos .


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## >Apocalypto< (5 February 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Stormin ~
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> ...




Personaly I find some of the pairs too expensive. You can get a better deal at a dealing desk. I have used the efx demo and spreads can move to 2 pips on all the majors at times. ig cmc offer locked 2 pip or 20$ round trip on a trade (10 lots or standard contract) and I am not sending my money overseas with wire fees. 

Justin when do volume discounts kick in?


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## efx_justin (6 February 2008)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Personaly I find some of the pairs too expensive. You can get a better deal at a dealing desk. I have used the efx demo and spreads can move to 2 pips on all the majors at times. ig cmc offer locked 2 pip or 20$ round trip on a trade (10 lots or standard contract) and I am not sending my money overseas with wire fees.
> 
> Justin when do volume discounts kick in?




Hi Apocalypto ~

If you email me at justin@efxgroup.com, I'll be more then happy to send you the full volume breakdown report. 

Interesting that you say "you can get a better deal at dealing desk", because here is a post from another forum that just goes to show this isn't a very accurate statment. 

_Those that might be interested in ONE live experience between two different brokers here it is.

The trade is Long the GBP/JPY. EFX account 360,000 long or 36 minis TS 40,000 or 4 minis. Both with a stop market at 211.20 for the full amount.

TS fills are 
10,000 211.118
20,000 211.097
10,000 211.085

average of around 10 pips lower then stop.

EFX fills are 
180,000 211.19
90,000 211.18
90,000 211.18

average of around 1.5 pips lower then stop

I might also add that the entry on this trade was a stop limit with 2 pip spread EFX got me in the trade at the 2 pip limit as it went through the area the first time. TS went through came back and touched when up and then came through before getting filled. Quite interesting experience..._

The above post was on ForexFactory by forum member drkyle today 2:39pm.

In the argument about cost, I think many traders forget it's not just about the spread or commission, but more importantly the fill.


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## ithatheekret (6 February 2008)

I've lost count of the amount of times I see candles roar into my set entries and limits , not EFX can't comment there ...... others , one BIG one too ......... and the order is still sitting there after the event . 

To put it bluntly it sux !

Even a brokerage I use has the same problem , Justin would know them ......  a Swiss mob .


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## >Apocalypto< (6 February 2008)

efx_justin said:


> Hi Apocalypto ~
> 
> If you email me at justin@efxgroup.com, I'll be more then happy to send you the full volume breakdown report.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply Justin,

I trade fx with IG markets right now. I have never had any fill problems at all. I always have 3 data sorces open at the same time while I trade. IG are always on the money or at times a pip out for a second or two max.

At the current exchange rate on the euro usd I can make a round trip for $20us per contract. I see on efx its 1 pip spread and around 7$us per side which makes roughtly 24us to make the same trade.

But in fairness on other pairs like usd/chf and usd/cad you're miles infront. I mainly trade the eur/usd and swissy so that is a minor issue to me. I have never seen a order take longer then 1-2 seconds to be filled with IG. mini or standard.

Not having a crack at u. I am just curious as the eur/usd is the markets most liquid pair. I know that your rates are directly linked to the current value of the cross.

cheers


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## efx_justin (7 February 2008)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Thanks for the reply Justin,
> 
> I trade fx with IG markets right now. I have never had any fill problems at all. I always have 3 data sorces open at the same time while I trade. IG are always on the money or at times a pip out for a second or two max.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply...I know you weren't taking a crack - I enjoy the feedback. 

If you don't need a market order, it's not a bad idea to place a limit order inbetween the spread....won't always get filled since it is a limit order, but this will dramatically decrease the spread if you are filled and allow for all others traders on the system to see your order. 

For Example: 

GBPJPY is 209.16 X 209.19 and I want to go long. I place a limit order to long at 209.175. My order is reflected in the Market Depth and the new quote becomes 209.175 X 209.19. Thus becoming 1.5 PIPS tighter then the quote provided by our liquidity providers and much more attractive to any traders looking to go short. 

Now instead of having a 3 pip spread when doing a market order, I placed a limit order and was only out 1.5 pips. Take it one step further and place a limit order at 209.165 and if I had gotten filled I would have only been out .5 pips on a currency pair that most brokers have a 7-10 pip spread on.


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## Stormin_Norman (7 February 2008)

what's the difference between mbtrading and efx? they seem almost identical to me, down to the software.


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## efx_justin (8 February 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> what's the difference between mbtrading and efx? they seem almost identical to me, down to the software.




EFX is the arm of MB that specializes in Forex. MB Trading offers all asset classes (stocks, options, futures, Forex) and thus offers software solutions that suit traders for all markets. Many of the owners of MB also own EFX, but EFX is set up to train people that are largely Forex-only traders.

• MB and EFX both use the same execution technology and pricing.

• Both have the same Help Desk for off-hours support.

• Both EFX and MB have the Navigator software as a front-end option.

• Only EFX has EFX Remote Trader - a web based platform for global access. 

• EFX offers discounted charting with many 3rd party providers. 

• EFX’s daytime help desk and on-line tutorials are designed to help you learn how to use our platforms. We’ll spend as much time as possible walking you through how to trade on the system.

• Any upgrades to the overall execution platform that MB implements will also apply to EFX.

• EFX may add software upgrades, new front-end, or even advanced Forex-only order routing via our front ends that MB may never offer.

That’s pretty much the way to look at it.


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## efx_justin (5 March 2008)

*MB Trading Acquires EFX Group*

Hey Guys ~ 

This was sent out today to our clients: 

Dear EFX Clients,

Effective March 1st, EFX Group has been acquired by Manhattan Beach Trading, Inc. (MBTI), the financial services holding company of MB Trading Futures, Inc. (MBTF) and MB Trading. Your account is already held at MBTF, and therefore nothing will change for your account except forthcoming changes in accessing information regarding your account. Currently, the EFX website permits access to your account through its secure login and will continue to do so. Over the course of the next few weeks we will change this to access information from your account at www.mbtrading.com/fx.

The EFX team will still be available to answer your questions about how to use the platform, how the technology works, new account info, Live Helper, etc.

Over the next few weeks our operation is going to expand to help educate people about all markets that MBTI’s subsidiaries cover: including Stocks, Futures and Options. The EFX team will continue to be involved in providing you the level of service that you have become accustomed to. We have attached the Press Release related to the acquisition via the following link: EFX NEWS

Thank you for your support of EFX Group over the years - we look forward to working with you under the prestigious name of MB Trading.

Feel free to contact us directly with any questions.

Just thought you might like to know.


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## Stormin_Norman (7 March 2008)

E FX OPTIONS 

net worth: $5,128,233	
capital required: $5,000,000	
excess capital: $128,233	-96.97% (change in excess capital)

have merged with

MB TRADING FUTURES INC.	

net worth:$7,017,099	
capital required: $5,000,000	
excess capital: $2,017,099	-61.94% (change in excess capital)

to form a broker

net worth: $12,145,332
capital required: $5,000,000
excess capital: $7,145,332   +354.24% (change due to merger)

figures dated  2007-12-31 source: http://www.brokerontop.com/small_futures_commission_merchant.htm


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## Nick Radge (7 March 2008)

Justin,
What do you think about trading the GBP/JPY?


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## efx_justin (8 March 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> E FX OPTIONS
> 
> net worth: $5,128,233
> capital required: $5,000,000
> ...




Stormin Norman ~ 

I must correct you - E FX Options and EFX Group are two completely separate companies. EFX Group an introducing agent for MB Trading has been acquired by Manhattan Beach Trading, not E FX Options. 

Additionally, a companies “net worth” and their “adjusted net cap” are two completely different things…it’s important to note that. Adjusted Net Capital is what the firm has on deposit with the NFA; it has nothing to do with the companies Net Worth. 

Just making sure the correct info is out there.


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## efx_justin (8 March 2008)

Nick Radge said:


> Justin,
> What do you think about trading the GBP/JPY?




I think its a great pair...lots of liquidity, a great ADR (Average Daily Range) and with us a very attractive spread of 3-5 pips on average.


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## nizar (8 March 2008)

Nick Radge said:


> Justin,
> What do you think about trading the GBP/JPY?




It gives some massive trends.
I havent done the testing yet but I suspect the payoff would still be handsome in spite of the (relatively) wide spread.


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## tayser (12 March 2008)

Something to consider re: EFX commissions, volume and account size, straight from the horses mouth on FF: http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost.php?p=1896984&postcount=1763

Start @ $50 per million traded then there's other tiers at $40 per million and $30 per million.  

Justin, what sort of account size and volume would you need to be putting through EFX on a monthly basis to get to the $30 per million tier?  And am I to assume this is not automatic and we should ring up and negotiate when we think we're in a position to do so?

Just a rough guesstimate on the tiers would be nice.

roundtrip pip commissions of 0.5-0.6 on AUD/JPY, 1.10-1.20 on GBP/JPY and 0.9-1.0 on EUR/JPY is very enticing for scalpers ($30/million) 

Cheers.


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## efx_justin (13 March 2008)

tayser said:


> Justin, what sort of account size and volume would you need to be putting through EFX on a monthly basis to get to the $30 per million tier?  And am I to assume this is not automatic and we should ring up and negotiate when we think we're in a position to do so?
> 
> Cheers.




Hi Tayser ~ 

It really depends on the style of the trader - someone with $100,000 in their account might only place 1 or 2 trades in increments of 500,000...while another trader with the exact same amount might place 20-25 trades in increments of 500,000. So while the first trader did roughly a $1M in volume that day, the other trader with the same account might have done $20M in volume. This is just an example...but you certainly understand what I mean. 

Correct, the commissions do not adjust automatically and I would advise you to contact our offices to discuss such changes.


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## Stormin_Norman (24 March 2008)

apologies justin. i was looking at U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission data and couldnt find efx listed at all in that case.

how much is the net value of the merged new company?


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## nizar (24 March 2008)

tayser said:


> roundtrip pip commissions of 0.5-0.6 on AUD/JPY, *1.10-1.20 on GBP/JPY *and 0.9-1.0 on EUR/JPY is very enticing for scalpers ($30/million)




That would be beautiful.


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## efx_justin (25 March 2008)

Stormin_Norman said:


> apologies justin. i was looking at U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission data and couldnt find efx listed at all in that case.
> 
> how much is the net value of the merged new company?




Hi Stomin ~ 

MB Trading Futures has a current reported Net Cap of $7 million, this of course is only for our FCM. MB Trading which is our securities firm - is also a member of SIPC and FINRA.


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