# Rudd Government failings vs. achievements



## sam76 (16 April 2010)

Add to list cut and paste into new post

*Failings:*

ETS
Home insulation
Boat People
Grocery watch
Fuel watch
Internet filter


*Achievements:*


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## Fishbulb (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



sam76 said:


> Add to list cut and paste into new post
> 
> *Failings:*
> 
> ...



...


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## sam76 (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

dunno if three dots are classified as an achievement or failing there champ.


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

Failings:

ETS
Home insulation
Boat People
Grocery watch
Fuel watch
Internet filter
BER (Big Error Rate & Builders Early Retirement)
Aboriginal Housing Northern Territory


Achievements:

Rudd speak
The Apology
Tax on luxury cars over $57,000 increased from 25% to 33%
Tax loophole on share options plugged


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## pilots (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

You are both being very unfair on our Mr Rudd, give me some time and I will find some thing he has done, a lot of builders of shonkey schools has made money, the beer stores made good money with the $900 pay out to all the no hoper's, come on be fair, He just needs more time and money to fix EVERY THING.


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## Fishbulb (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



sam76 said:


> dunno if three dots are classified as an achievement or failing there champ.




Take a closer look - Champ.


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## sam76 (16 April 2010)

hahahahahah

must be blind


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## sam76 (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

Trainspotter you missed a couple that fish bulb added 


FIXED



trainspotter said:


> Failings:
> 
> ETS
> Home insulation
> ...


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## drsmith (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

I'm no fan of the present administration but what about the Coalition's policy positions. We know where they stand on the ETS but what about anything else ?


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## Fishbulb (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> I'm no fan of the present administration but what about the Coalition's policy positions. We know where they stand on the ETS but what about anything else ?




The thread topic reads - *Rudd Govt's failings etc*

I'm sure there's plenty of similar topics where the Libs are concerned. You could start one yourself.


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## pilots (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> I'm no fan of the present administration but what about the Coalition's policy positions. We know where they stand on the ETS but what about anything else ?




I seem to remember that when they took over the country was in the RED,  when your lot took over it was in the black, when the Lib's get to take over again, you will find that Australia won't have enough red to print out our debt.


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## todster (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



pilots said:


> I seem to remember that when they took over the country was in the RED,  when your lot took over it was in the black, when the Lib's get to take over again, you will find that Australia won't have enough red to print out our debt.




Real pity we cant sell Telstra again


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

Failings:

ETS
Home insulation
Boat People
Grocery watch
Fuel watch
Internet filter
BER (Big Error Rate & Builders Early Retirement)
Aboriginal Housing Northern Territory
Computers for every child in every school
Broadband roll-out
Massive turnover in ministerial staff (should this be an achievement?)


Achievements:

Rudd speak
The Apology
Tax on luxury cars over $57,000 increased from 25% to 33%
Tax loophole on share options plugged
Removing discrimination in legal matters for homosexuals 
Amendment to Trade Practices Act to stop large firms bullying small competitors
Utegate Win which flushed out Turnbull and other miscreants
Henry Tax Review (which no one has seen and is yet to be released)


Not sure on the Liberal policies as they seem to be reactionary to the drumbeat of PM Rudd.


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## drsmith (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*

To win the next election the coalition is going to need credible policy alternatives.

Just focusing on the ALP's failings as a government won't be sufficient.


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> To win the next election the coalition is going to need credible policy alternatives.
> 
> Just focusing on the ALP's failings as a government won't be sufficient.




Very true drsmith http://www.liberal.org.au/ does not really outline any policies as such but focus's on the negative approach of discredit. I guess this is why they are called the opposition?


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## Whiskers (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> I'm no fan of the present administration but what about the Coalition's policy positions. We know where they stand on the ETS but what about anything else ?




Quite the point I think.

From the reaction to your post so far, it seems some of these guys have finally found a thread title where they can narrow down the discussion to bury themselves into their hatred and ridicule and exclude any positive critique/discussion for a better way forward.  

Poor souls! They're in a rut.


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## Calliope (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



Whiskers said:


> From the reaction to your post so far, it seems some of these guys have finally found a thread title where they can narrow down the discussion to bury themselves into their hatred and ridicule and exclude any positive critique/discussion for a better way forward.




No need to throw a hissy fit. You are free to list his achievements. It is a very short list and includes no "courageous decisions". You are also free to indulge your hatred of Howard, if that is your preference.


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## drsmith (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



trainspotter said:


> Very true drsmith http://www.liberal.org.au/ does not really outline any policies as such but focus's on the negative approach of discredit. I guess this is why they are called the opposition?



I just hope that over the next few months they step up to the plate swinging with policy positions so that they not only present themselves as an opposition but also as an alternative government.

That might also encourage the current government to lift its game as well.


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## sam76 (16 April 2010)

some of his achievements seem to be dubious....

rudd speak?


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> I just hope that over the next few months they step up to the plate swinging with policy positions so that they not only present themselves as an opposition but also as an alternative government.
> 
> That might also encourage the current government to lift its game as well.




One would hope so drsmith but from what I can make out it seems like both parties are forming policy on the run. I believe when Abbott was asked to reveal his Health Reform Program he refused to unveil his masterplan.

"I'm the opposition. My job is to ask the questions," he told reporters outside his Sydney home. "My job is to scrutinise Mr Rudd's proposal."

Achievement - Frequent Flyer Points
Ability to speak Chinese !

Fail - Workchoices Abolished (could be an achievement?)
Unable to help Stern Hu and was reprimanded by China for being an upstart


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## Whiskers (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



Calliope said:


> No need to throw a* hissy fit*. You are free to list his achievements. It is a very short list and includes no "courageous decisions".





:holysheep:



> *hissy fit*: *A sudden outburst of temper*, often used to describe female anger at something trivial. Originally regional from American South. Thought to originate from contraction of "hysterical fit."
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hissy+fit




 :silly:




> You are also free to indulge your hatred of Howard, if that is your preference.




But as I originally pointed out that's (apparently) against the thread rules.  :


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## Calliope (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



Whiskers said:


> But as I originally pointed out that's (apparently) against the thread rules.




I was suggesting you start your own thread.


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## Whiskers (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



Calliope said:


> I was suggesting you start your own thread.




Not interested in starting a critical thread for crititism sake. 

In this case I'm not going to bragg about Rudds achievements either cos the failings are starting to weigh a bit too heavily.

so no point in rubbing the salt into the wound... prefer to throw out some positive alternatives when crititism is warranted... cos crititism alone is a futile and depressing exercise.


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

Back on track please ....... :horse:

Achievement: The Rudd Government spent more than $49 million of taxpayer money on 418 media advisers (keeping people employed !)

Fail: The Rudd Labor Government has awarded $784 million worth of consultancy contracts since the 2007 election ...... no wait ... could be an achievement?


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## Calliope (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



Whiskers said:


> so no point in rubbing the salt into the wound... prefer to throw out some positive alternatives when crititism is warranted... cos crititism alone is a futile and depressing exercise.




So start your positive threads, but I don't think they will get much traction.



> Back on track please .......




Sorry Trainspotter. I was trying to help another guy who ran off the track.


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## Whiskers (16 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Back on track please ....... :horse:




lol, yes I retire.


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## Julia (16 April 2010)

Achievement:  offering the government guarantee on retail deposit.
Unnecessary from a banking point of view, but calmed nervous investors.
Presumably also made the government a few bucks in the fees paid by the banks for the privilege.

Achievement:  demoted Peter Garrett.  Getting rid of him entirely would have been better.


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## BBand (16 April 2010)

Has expanded the English dictionary with wordings that I'm sure many of his followers do not comprehend, but are in awe of - acheivement?


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## noco (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> I just hope that over the next few months they step up to the plate swinging with policy positions so that they not only present themselves as an opposition but also as an alternative government.
> 
> That might also encourage the current government to lift its game as well.




There was old saying during the war," Don't fire 'till you see the whites of their eyes".

So I hope the Coalition do not reveal their policies untill closer to the election, otherwise "ME TOO" is bound to steal them.

Patience dear man, patience is a virtue.


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## Calliope (16 April 2010)

Achievement: Setting an example to his front bench on how to be humble and caring when visiting the sick or "sending thoughts and prayers" to grieving relatives of newsworthy deceased.

Failing:  Neglecting to send "thoughts and prayers" to relatives of those killed in the home insulation stuff-ups.


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## Surly (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> To win the next election the coalition is going to need credible policy alternatives.
> 
> Just focusing on the ALP's failings as a government won't be sufficient.




Mr Rudd had many many wonderful policies at the last election. NONE of which have been fulfilled, which is much the point of this topic.

cheers
Surly


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## moXJO (16 April 2010)

*Achievement* (hopefully)
*national school curriculum* I think this is a good idea provided they don't dumb students down.

*University funding?* was money given to the unis before?


*Failing*
*Knowledge summit* What the frick did that achieve
*Management of policies* I like some of the ideas labor has, just the way they implement them sucks really bad


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## trainspotter (16 April 2010)

We have a CLAYTON'S government - the government you have when you don't have a government.

The Rudd Labor Government has awarded over $940 million worth of consultancy contracts since coming to power just 2 years ago. Analysis of the top 40 federal departments and agencies over the last four years shows that the Rudd government is the highest spending Government in Australian history on consultants. Lindsay Tanner claims that Labor ‘has cracked down hard’ on spending. Sorry Mr Tanner – but that just doesn’t add up.


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## Space Invader101 (16 April 2010)

It's always the way.  You vote Labor and they create massive debt.  You vote Liberal and they're left to clean up Labors mess.

Ruddy got rid of work choices for the insecure workers who voted him.  Now it's time to get rid of him before we end up like Greece.


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## wayneL (16 April 2010)

*Achievements:*

Spin


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## So_Cynical (16 April 2010)

sam76 said:


> Add to list cut and paste into new post
> 
> *Failings:*
> 
> ...



*
Achievements*: Odds on to win the next election...according to all 5 betting agency's taking bets on this years election....funny cos the right wing of the ASF just cant see what all 5 betting agency's see.


http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/04/16/betting-market-friday-10/

~


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## wayneL (16 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> *
> Achievements*: Odds on to win the next election...according to all 5 betting agency's taking bets on this years election....funny cos the right wing of the ASF just cant see what all 5 betting agency's see.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/04/16/betting-market-friday-10/




Election victory has something to do with achievements? 

ROTFL

If that were so, no opposition would ever win and the Libs would still be in power.


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## drsmith (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



noco said:


> There was old saying during the war," Don't fire 'till you see the whites of their eyes".
> 
> So I hope the Coalition do not reveal their policies untill closer to the election, otherwise "ME TOO" is bound to steal them.
> 
> Patience dear man, patience is a virtue.



At the same time they don't want to be saving all their ammo for the final battle otherwise by then the war might be lost.


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## inenigma (16 April 2010)

*Re: Rudd Government failings vs achievements*



drsmith said:


> To win the next election the coalition is going to need credible policy alternatives.
> 
> Just focusing on the ALP's failings as a government won't be sufficient.




Mate....

You've been lost in space for a long, long time...


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## So_Cynical (16 April 2010)

wayneL said:


> Election victory has something to do with achievements?
> 
> ROTFL




Ask any main stream political organisation what there trying to achieve and the answer will be power, and that power comes via the ballot box.

Victory is the only achievement that matters in politics...tell me Wayne, what do you think Maxine McKew greatest political achievement is?


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## drsmith (16 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Ask any main stream political organisation what there trying to achieve and the answer will be power, and that power comes via the ballot box.



Lets hope that the aquisition of that power does not drift too far from the well being of the population as a whole.

That's what I fear is happening.


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## So_Cynical (16 April 2010)

drsmith said:


> Lets hope that the aquisition of that power does not drift too far from the well being of the population as a whole.
> 
> That's what I fear is happening.




Of course its happening...always has and always will, that's 2 party politics..Do you think that work choices was for the well being of the population as a whole.?


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## wayneL (16 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Ask any main stream political organisation what there trying to achieve and the answer will be power, and that power comes via the ballot box.
> 
> Victory is the only achievement that matters in politics...tell me Wayne, what do you think Maxine McKew greatest political achievement is?




Maxine who?

Well one would hope they are trying to achieve power to implement their vision for the country.

That's what scares the 5h1t out of me about Labor.


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## Julia (16 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Ask any main stream political organisation what there trying to achieve and the answer will be power, and that power comes via the ballot box.
> 
> Victory is the only achievement that matters in politics...tell me Wayne, what do you think Maxine McKew greatest political achievement is?



The question is not being asked of a political organisation but of ASF members.
Of course all political parties want power.
The notion that they should actually have as their aim to improve the lot of the electorate is no doubt quaintly old fashioned.



noco said:


> There was old saying during the war," Don't fire 'till you see the whites of their eyes".
> 
> So I hope the Coalition do not reveal their policies untill closer to the election, otherwise "ME TOO" is bound to steal them.
> 
> Patience dear man, patience is a virtue.



I don't really agree, noco.   For every day that the Libs just knock everything the government suggests, but fail to put up an alternative, is another nail in their political coffin imo.

I can still hear Tony Abbott when he was elected leader saying "the role of the opposition is to oppose".  And he has ever since done nothing else.
The public on the whole dislike continued negativity.

Much goodwill could be created with voters by just occasionally agreeing that something the government proposed was reasonably sensible, e.g. the means testing of private health rebate.

By either not having any policies, or refusing to discuss these, Mr Abbott is taking the extreme risk of voters building up a sense that he is incapable of producing anything other than criticism and will turn off him permanently.

Remember, Mr Abbott has a history of foot in mouth and generally unfortunate statements, and simply can't afford to create any more negativity amongst voters.  Instead he needs to negate much of his record if he wants to be taken seriously, and start producing some realistic policies.
Otherwise, people will just stop listening at all.

Don't let your obvious political affiliation blind you to the reality of Mr Abbott's electability or otherwise, noco.


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## So_Cynical (16 April 2010)

wayneL said:


> Maxine who?




Exactly...she will only ever be remembered as the first woman, and only the second person, to unseat a sitting Australian prime minister in his own electorate.

And that's because she WON, and that's what politics is all about, the winners get to make the decisions and the losers get to do whatever losers do.


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## trainspotter (17 April 2010)

Back on track here. Lotsa wheel spinning at the moment.

Achievement: Ability to con the voting public with undecipherable rhetoric.

Fail: Causing translators to mass suicide after one of his speeches in a foreign country.


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## sam76 (17 April 2010)

I've given up on the original list, lol

I tried to make it neat but the people have spoken.

randomness rules.  

Failings - National Broadband Network


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## Calliope (17 April 2010)

Failing; Retaining the tax on interest on bank savings at one of the highest in the developed world. 

Okay, it all very well for a socialist government to hate the banks; but why take it out on the depositors. There is a whisper that they will offer some relief under the Henry review, but only if you lock your deposits in for five to ten years. What retiree in their right mind would do that.


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## drsmith (17 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Of course its happening...always has and always will, that's 2 party politics..Do you think that work choices was for the well being of the population as a whole.?



I was meaning from an overall perspective rather than from an individual party or specific policy perspective.

If it is then Rome will eventually burn.


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## drsmith (17 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Failing; Retaining the tax on interest on bank savings at one of the highest in the developed world.
> 
> Okay, it all very well for a socialist government to hate the banks; but why take it out on the depositors. There is a whisper that they will offer some relief under the Henry review, but only if you lock your deposits in for five to ten years. What retiree in their right mind would do that.



I wonder whether that will lead to banks lowering longer term deposit rates as more money would then be chasing these.

Rather than introducing more distortions and holes in the tax revenue net, they should be fixing existing ones and lowering the overall rates of tax.


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## So_Cynical (17 April 2010)

sam76 said:


> Failings - National Broadband Network




LOL .. how the hell can a network we don't have be a failing?  it wont be finished for more than half a decade! .. oh right because we don't actually need state of the art, next generation broadband..we should just struggle along with the mish mash of networks we have.


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## Julia (17 April 2010)

Given the technology the government is pursuing for this project is said to be almost obsolete already, how worthwhile do you think it's going to be by the time it's actually in place, So Cynical???

And then how many householders are actually going to want it, given the no doubt considerably higher cost?

Just might have been good to have done some damn feasibility studies first.


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## snowking (19 April 2010)

Is it just me or does every time Rudd puts forward something that falls flat on its face he pulls something else out of his hat to take away the attention from his failings??

eg NBN onto ETS onto Health....what is next when health ends up down the gurgler? Tax Reform...

Surely there is only so long he can do this before the smokescreen clears!


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## noco (19 April 2010)

snowking said:


> Is it just me or does every time Rudd puts forward something that falls flat on its face he pulls something else out of his hat to take away the attention from his failings??
> 
> eg NBN onto ETS onto Health....what is next when health ends up down the gurgler? Tax Reform...
> 
> Surely there is only so long he can do this before the smokescreen clears!




It is hard to beleive with all Rudd's failings that he still preferred Prime Minister, although today's Neilsen poll indicates Labor has lost 2% points and the Coalition has gained 2% points after preferencial voting.


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## Julia (19 April 2010)

Noco, do you have a link to that poll?

When I looked on the Neilsen website the following is what I got for latest poll.  This is obviously very out of date:



> Trends & Insights
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cornnfedd (19 April 2010)

Anybody added in changing the foreign ownership laws for housing therefore pushing up the average house price for the average australian?


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## noco (20 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Noco, do you have a link to that poll?
> 
> When I looked on the Neilsen website the following is what I got for latest poll.  This is obviously very out of date:




Julia, I saw it on SKY News yesterday. Sorry I can't give you a link except going to SKY NEWS.


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## Mofra (20 April 2010)

noco said:


> It is hard to beleive with all Rudd's failings that he still preferred Prime Minister, although today's Neilsen poll indicates Labor has lost 2% points and the Coalition has gained 2% points after preferencial voting.



I don't know many who approve of Rudd at PM, but I know a few who think the Mad Monk is worse.

We aren't exactly spoiled for choice in Federal parliament these days.


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## Whiskers (20 April 2010)

Mofra said:


> I don't know many who approve of Rudd at PM, but I know a few who think the Mad Monk is worse.
> 
> We aren't exactly spoiled for choice in Federal parliament these days.




Yes I think Abbot may fall into the same catagory as Kim Beazly, only worse, as more of an 'ok I'll give it a go' sort of leader as opposed to the achievement of Rudd (and Howard) who is much more passionate about leadership.


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## Calliope (20 April 2010)

Mofra said:


> I don't know many who approve of Rudd at PM, but I know a few who think the Mad Monk is worse.
> 
> We aren't exactly spoiled for choice in Federal parliament these days.




You got that right. We can only hope that one day the country will throw up a statesman. However we will never know, because he (or she) will have Buckley's chance of being elected.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

Cash bonus$$$$$
Allegedly saved us from black hole
And propped up Hardly Normal


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## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

todster said:


> Cash bonus$$$$$
> Allegedly saved us from black hole
> And propped up Hardly Normal




Is this an achievement or a failure?


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## c-unit (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Is this an achievement or a failure?




Definitely a failure. Big waste of cash, which unfortunately will have to be paid for by those who didn't even receive it.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

Can you explain to me why Oz was one of the few countries in the world not to experience the "R" word
I'm all ears like Tony Abbott


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## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

todster said:


> Can you explain to me why Oz was one of the few countries in the world not to experience the "R" word
> I'm all ears like Tony Abbott




1) Australian banks had limited exposure to SUB PRIME MORTGAGES
2) The export of minerals is a significant contributor to Australia’s GDP. Other countries relied on NON ESSENTIAL GOODS AND SERVICES.
3) RBA immediately dropped rates to 3.25% (still higher than anywhere else thusly attracting global monetary funds to the interest rate)
4) We are small fry in the global scheme and a 2 bit player in macro economics. (300 million people in America, 127 million in Japan, 61 million in UK etc etc)
5) Imports fell 7% and Exports fell only 2.7%
6) We had relatively LOW net foreign debt unlike other countries  
7) I could go on and on and on and on ...........

But you already knew all of this ... didn't you !?!?!??!?! 

Similarly to Australia, Japan’s banks had limited exposure to sub-prime mortgages. In the beginning of 2008, after a long recession, Japan had its Non-Performing Loan problem as well as deflation under control and its economy was growing at a slow but steady pace. When the crisis hit, Japan suffered tremendously from the sudden drop in demand for cars and electronics from overseas. The economy spiraled back into negative growth. Although the Japanese financial system was unaffected, the drop in exports was solely responsible for the degradation of the economy.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> 1) Australian banks had limited exposure to SUB PRIME MORTGAGES
> 2) The export of minerals is a significant contributor to Australia’s GDP. Other countries relied on NON ESSENTIAL GOODS AND SERVICES.
> 3) RBA immediately dropped rates to 3.25% (still higher than anywhere else thusly attracting global monetary funds to the interest rate)
> 4) We are small fry in the global scheme and a 2 bit player in macro economics. (300 million people in America, 127 million in Japan, 61 million in UK etc etc)
> ...




No i didn't know all that,great reply anyway i will have to take your word on it.
But it did remind me that the government had to guarantee these bulletproof banks thats an achievement surely.
If pumping all that cash into the economy didn't help i think your trains half empty and mines half full


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## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

todster said:


> No i didn't know all that,great reply anyway i will have to take your word on it.
> But it did remind me that the government had to guarantee these bulletproof banks thats an achievement surely.
> If pumping all that cash into the economy didn't help i think your trains half empty and mines half full




Take my word for it ... all facts.

The Guvnmt guaranteed the deposits for the banks to stop Mummy & Daddy investors from pulling their CASH out of aforementioned bank thusly reducing their fund raising capabilities. Rule of thumb is said bank must have a certain amount of liquidity (cash deposits) to be used as collateral therefore the RBA will loan them money at x% which they then on loan to you at y%. Also other global monetary finds operate the same way but require a little bit more than reserve cash on hand. That's another story.

The pumping of the stimulus cash into the economy has caused WHAT exactly? Pink Batt Fiasco? BER Catastrophe? $900 x 3 to dead beats to spend at Harvey Norman on Japanese TV's we imported? Where do you think the money came from to SPLURGE such largesse? Rudd has borrowed heavily on the never never and WE as taxpayers will have to pay it back. Toot toot ... all aboard .. the train has left the station.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Take my word for it ... all facts.
> 
> The Guvnmt guaranteed the deposits for the banks to stop Mummy & Daddy investors from pulling their CASH out of aforementioned bank thusly reducing their fund raising capabilities. Rule of thumb is said bank must have a certain amount of liquidity (cash deposits) to be used as collateral therefore the RBA will loan them money at x% which they then on loan to you at y%. Also other global monetary finds operate the same way but require a little bit more than reserve cash on hand. That's another story.
> 
> The pumping of the stimulus cash into the economy has caused WHAT exactly? Pink Batt Fiasco? BER Catastrophe? $900 x 3 to dead beats to spend at Harvey Norman on Japanese TV's we imported? Where do you think the money came from to SPLURGE such largesse? Rudd has borrowed heavily on the never never and WE as taxpayers will have to pay it back. Toot toot ... all aboard .. the train has left the station.




Why are all people who earn less than x amount of $ dead beats,some one has to collect the rubbish and serve you at restaurants
If they all spent there cash on TVs at Hardlys why didn't it show in your lower imports comment.
As for the mummy and Daddy investors who are obviously not as switched on as an experienced operator as yourself,the point was the backing of the banks was an achievement as the thread mentioned somewhere.
Ps i bet you drive a volvo no Saab


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## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

todster said:


> Why are all people who earn less than x amount of $ dead beats,some one has to collect the rubbish and serve you at restaurants
> If they all spent there cash on TVs at Hardlys why didn't it show in your lower imports comment.
> As for the mummy and Daddy investors who are obviously not as switched on as an experienced operator as yourself,the point was the backing of the banks was an achievement as the thread mentioned somewhere.
> Ps i bet you drive a volvo no Saab




ROFL !! Dead people, people living overseas are deadbeats who did not deserve the stimulus package!! Nowhere did I mention a $ value on pride that there is a certain workforce who are taking the rubbish out or serving me in restaurants?? LOLOLOL ... hardly factual.

*"The Australian government has been forced to defend its economic recovery plan after it emerged that 16,000 dead people had recieved $900 stimulus payments meant to protect the country against recession."*

I would take this as gross mismanagement?? Only 14.4 million dollars. LOLOL

Ummmm ...... could be that Harvey Norman had the TV's in stock by any chance and were having trouble selling them?? PMSL ......... FAIL !

An achievement? Then yes ... it was to calm the poor unwashed masses who were led to believe we were a lot worse off then we really were !!

Leave the mode of transport out of the conversation and let's stick to the task at hand shall we? 

*Achievement -* Bank guarantee to give comfort to Mummy & Daddy's to keep their money in a bank that was rock solid to begin with.

*Fail - *Sending millions of dollars to dead people !!


----------



## todster (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Take my word for it ... all facts.
> $900 x 3 to dead beats to spend at Harvey Norman on Japanese TV's we imported?
> 
> Sorry mate i took this as you meaning deadbeats spending there bonus at Harvey Norman and the people who were eligible earn less than x amount of $s
> Don't Know where i got that idea from ROFL


----------



## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

I should have clarified the details in my original post better. Mia Culpa !

Was trying to relay that buying TV's in Harvey Norman with the $900 x3 was good for Harvey Norman and not much else.


----------



## todster (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> I should have clarified the details in my original post better. Mia Culpa !
> 
> Was trying to relay that buying TV's in Harvey Norman with the $900 x3 was good for Harvey Norman and not much else.




Yeah it's all good mate,Mia Culpa who's she


----------



## So_Cynical (20 April 2010)

Since you seem to have all the answers trainspotter perhaps you can tell me why all 5 agency's taking bets on this years election have the Govt as a very short priced favourite to win, and the coalition as  an extreme outsider, given almost no chance of winning. 

I await your wisdom with eager anticipation.


----------



## JimBob (20 April 2010)

The Rudd government have a decent list of failures compared to their successes as listed in this thread, but this doesnt mean that voters think that Liberal could do any better - hence the bookies odds.  At the moment, the Liberals dont really have any policy positions at the moment and it looks like we will have to wait until closer to election time to see what they have to offer.


----------



## noco (20 April 2010)

todster said:


> Can you explain to me why Oz was one of the few countries in the world not to experience the "R" word
> I'm all ears like Tony Abbott




Don't forget this wasteful Labor Government inherited a very healthy base of a $22 billion surplus, which they (Labor) blew in a very short time.The previous Government would have implimented the same scheme at half the cost and far more efficiently, just as they did in the Asian financial crisis. But you did not hear all the blah,blah, blah from Howard/Costello like you have from Rudd.


----------



## noco (20 April 2010)

Everyone will recall all the propaganda from Labor before the 2007 election about 10 interest rate rises in a row during the previous Governments term.
We have now had 5 interest rate rises in 7 months with more to come.
I wonder what Rudd and the 'goose' will say when they get up to the 10th and maybe more.


----------



## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Since you seem to have all the answers trainspotter perhaps you can tell me why all 5 agency's taking bets on this years election have the Govt as a very short priced favourite to win, and the coalition as  an extreme outsider, given almost no chance of winning.
> 
> I await your wisdom with eager anticipation.




So_Cynical ... you have completely missed the main thrust of my posts. I do not have all the answers. I am merely pointing out the failings of the content of the Labor Party and what they have provided thus far. I have also had the same affordability of duplicity with the following post.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=549324&highlight=tony+abbott#post549324

As a NON BETTING KIND OF PERSON and since Rimfire won the Melbourne Cup at 80/1 odds in 1948 I reckon there is still a chance of an outsider winning a forgone conclusion even though the 5 agencies taking bets have the encumbent Govt clearly ensconced to win the next election. As you have reviewed .. this seem's like a conclusion with a fait accompli that cannot be negotiated. But at what cost I ask you So_Cynical ... at what cost?


----------



## noco (20 April 2010)

JimBob said:


> The Rudd government have a decent list of failures compared to their successes as listed in this thread, but this doesnt mean that voters think that Liberal could do any better - hence the bookies odds.  At the moment, the Liberals dont really have any policy positions at the moment and it looks like we will have to wait until closer to election time to see what they have to offer.




Well JimBob, that was the Labor Party tactics prior to the 2007 election, but now they and the media are critical of Abbott for not releasing their (the Coalition) policies.

Swan keep saying before the 2007 election you will have to wait. We will release our policies to the timing of our choice.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

noco said:


> Don't forget this wasteful Labor Government inherited a very healthy base of a $22 billion surplus, which they (Labor) blew in a very short time.The previous Government would have implimented the same scheme at half the cost and far more efficiently, just as they did in the Asian financial crisis. But you did not hear all the blah,blah, blah from Howard/Costello like you have from Rudd.




Minus Telstra Noco


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## Julia (20 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Since you seem to have all the answers trainspotter perhaps you can tell me why all 5 agency's taking bets on this years election have the Govt as a very short priced favourite to win, and the coalition as  an extreme outsider, given almost no chance of winning.
> 
> I await your wisdom with eager anticipation.



This thread is about Rudd's failings vs achievements.
There are other threads about polls, into which your above betting agency comment would better fit.
And the polls seem to be suggesting rather less overwhelming success for Rudd than this.

Further, see JimBob's post below:



JimBob said:


> The Rudd government have a decent list of failures compared to their successes as listed in this thread, but this doesnt mean that voters think that Liberal could do any better - hence the bookies odds.  At the moment, the Liberals dont really have any policy positions at the moment and it looks like we will have to wait until closer to election time to see what they have to offer.



And that's exactly the point.  Rudd's superiority in the polls at present imo represents much less any liking from the public for him, or any conviction about the success of his policies, than a reflection of the woeful quality of the Opposition.


----------



## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

I dips me lid Julia ... I dips me lid.


----------



## trainspotter (20 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Since you seem to have all the answers trainspotter perhaps you can tell me why all 5 agency's taking bets on this years election have the Govt as a very short priced favourite to win, and the coalition as  an extreme outsider, given almost no chance of winning.
> 
> I await your wisdom with eager anticipation.




Pol Pot and Stalin also enjoyed a similar popularity ... it didn't last.


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## todster (20 April 2010)

Well if MR Rudd wins the next election after all these failings that would have to be the achievement to end all achievements and end this debate


----------



## So_Cynical (20 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> So_Cynical ... you have completely missed the main thrust of my posts.




LOL no i don't think i did...i pretty much nailed it.

Liberals/nationals can only do good, have a right to rule and make only small mistakes on the rare occasions they they do make mistakes.

Labor is evil, can only do bad, and makes a mess of everything...and yet somehow there going to win this election...if only all the poor deluded Australians that support Rudd & Co could see what you do...then we would all live in a perfect, right wing, totalitarian dictatorship. 



Julia said:


> This thread is about Rudd's failings vs achievements.




Oh come on...just like the Health reform thread is about health reform...right. 



trainspotter said:


> Pol Pot and Stalin also enjoyed a similar popularity ... it didn't last.




Just like little Johnny and Co....oh those were the days.  No ETS talk, Green house gases were something that affected the rest of the world, all we had to worry about were 700 Iraqis on boats trying to que jump, one or two harmless local white supremacists and bludging wharfies....ah the good old days.


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## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL no i don't think i did...i pretty much nailed it.
> 
> Liberals/nationals can only do good, have a right to rule and make only small mistakes on the rare occasions they they do make mistakes.
> 
> ...




You might want to go in search of a bigger hammer if you think you have nailed it !! LOLOLOL 

Good to see you can actually disseminate the clean from the dirty politics and break it down to it's simplest form so that the Neanderthals and Troglodytes can understand the machinations of the Westminster two party preferred system we have here in Banana Republic Land. Well done So_Cynical ... I could not have done this justice or got down to such a lowbrow level to elucidate this to the comrades and brothers wearing their blue singlets with King Gee shorts and Winnie Reds hanging from the corner of their mouths.

Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh yes ..... them were the days young whippersnapper, affordable housing, steady interest rates, money in the bank, land of milk and honey. Then I woke up, don't delude yourself So_Cynical .... I am prepared to knock whichever Party is not leading this country in the manner it deserves, make no mistake about that. Waste and reckless spending has driven out good judgement and the voting people are blinded by spin and rhetoric like a cheap magic show. 

How about this for an idea So_Cynical .... instead of blowing $900 x 3 and calling it a stimulus package, add in the Pink Batt money and then throw in the BER Scheme monies to boot do you think this would have been enough to cover some of the costs of this hospital reform? DOH !


----------



## noco (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> You might want to go in search of a bigger hammer if you think you have nailed it !! LOLOLOL
> 
> Good to see you can actually disseminate the clean from the dirty politics and break it down to it's simplest form so that the Neanderthals and Troglodytes can understand the machinations of the Westminster two party preferred system we have here in Banana Republic Land. Well done So_Cynical ... I could not have done this justice or got down to such a lowbrow level to elucidate this to the comrades and brothers wearing their blue singlets with King Gee shorts and Winnie Reds hanging from the corner of their mouths.
> 
> ...




Well spoken trainspotter. By the way what has happened to Rudd's ETS?

Is Penny Wong gone to sleep, on holidays, on sick leave or has Rudd deported her to China?

The ETS semms to be dead and buried!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## todster (21 April 2010)

noco said:


> Well spoken trainspotter. By the way what has happened to Rudd's ETS?
> 
> Is Penny Wong gone to sleep, on holidays, on sick leave or has Rudd deported her to China?
> 
> The ETS semms to be dead and buried!!!!!!!!!!!




Why would Penny be deported to China?
Oh dear not the race card so early in the morning please
BTW she was born in Malaysia


----------



## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

Penny Who ?? And what is an ETS ??? Ooooooopsies .. another slight of hand to take our eye off the prize. Let's now attack Health Reform, afterall it worked for Obama and they even named it Obamacare. I think we could call this one Kruddhealth. Te he !

Achievement: Greatest singular, progressive, visionary reform of the Health and Hospital sytem in Australia.

Fail: Lack of detail or structure to implement the above in a manner to derive efficiencies.


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## pilots (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Penny Who ?? And what is an ETS ??? Ooooooopsies .. another slight of hand to take our eye off the prize. Let's now attack Health Reform, afterall it worked for Obama and they even named it Obamacare. I think we could call this one Kruddhealth. Te he !




DON'T knock the EST, all them hard working people needed a Holiday, you are just sore that you and I paid for it..


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## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

pilots said:


> DON'T knock the EST, all them hard working people needed a Holiday, you are just sore that you and I paid for it..




LOL@pilots ... they still have 150 people on staff for this dept. and ZERO result. Pigs in the trough, pigs in the trough.


----------



## bunyip (21 April 2010)

How Rudd blows your billions
Andrew Bolt
Friday, March 12, 2010 at 07:11am 




THINK you must now have heard the worst of Kevin Rudd’s colossal waste of your billions? 

Think nothing could top Rudd’s spending $1.5 billion on free insulation so dodgy that he must spend an estimated $450 million more to pull it out or make it safe? 

Then check out this shack above. 

It’s actually a school library being built at Stuarts Point with cash from perhaps the most scandalously wasteful of all the Rudd Government’s “stimulus” packages. 

How much would you pay for it, do you think? $150,000? $200,000, tops? 

Ha! Try $931,000, sucker. And that’s out of your pocket, too. 

For a contrast, check what you’d get for less than a quarter of the price if the school had cut out the Government middlemen and simply picked a whole house off the shelf from a builder. 

Ezyhomes, for instance, offers a 182sq m house called the Outlook (below), with a huge central area just right for a reading or teaching area, as well as three bedrooms you could use for the books, or knock out to make bigger spaces. Add toilets, kitchen and veranda and you’d still have change from $220,000. 



Or check what the Australian Construction Handbook of 2008 says you should actually pay for a single-storey primary school building - around $1300 per square metre, actually, or about a tenth of what Stuarts Point’s library costs. 

This is not a lone example, either. All round the country you’ll find the same astonishingly inflated prices for buildings knocked up in a hurry under rush-rush-Rudd’s Building the Education Revolution, set up last year to hurl $16.2 billion into quick-quick building projects for schools to “save” us from a catastrophic recession that the Reserve Bank now admits was just one of our milder downturns. 

This waste is worst in the $14 billion of that money that went on primary schools, which were given just a couple of months to ask for, plan and start building their choice of hall, library, shade or classroom. 

And what you saw with Rudd’s disastrous free insulation scheme is now unfolding with these BER projects. Too much money chased too few builders, who naturally quoted mad prices for jobs they barely cared if they didn’t get. 

So Eungai Public School in NSW spent $850,000 for just a two-room classroom. Berwick Lodge Primary, in Victoria, was quoted $200,000 by a Government project manager to move a sewer and stormwater drain - more than three times what private contractors told the principal the job was worth. 

A Wollongong school couldn’t even buy a school hall for its $2.5 million, even though the one it was quoted was less than half the size of the hall a nearby Catholic school had built for half the price. 

Nor does this scandal stop at the overcharging. Many schools asked for or were offered buildings they didn’t really need, and said yes only for fear of missing out on a freebie. 

For instance, Yapeen Primary School, near Castlemaine, was given $150,000 of BER money even though it has just two students and may soon close. 

Coincidentally, perhaps, the principal has twice stood as a Labor candidate. 

The reports of overcharging and waste in this massive program, administered by Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard, are so overwhelming that the auditor-general is now investigating where the money went, and is also asking primary school principals to say in confidence whether they got value for these billions. 

I’m yet to speak to a builder who thinks they did. 

“I’d say a figure of $1000 a sq m is a very good ball-park figure (for school buildings),” the prominent head of one of the country’s biggest home builders told me, asking not to be identified. 

“The price for this Building the Education Revolution stuff is phenomenally much higher than that. There’s been a feeding frenzy and people could charge what they liked. 

“You could get a couple of houses off the shelf for a fraction of the price of what they’re paying for (a small library).” 

The Opposition estimates that of the $16.2 billion being spent, as much as $9 billion will be frittered away, and no one can be sure that’s not just spin. After all, this Government’s mismanagement of spending already rivals anything Gough Whitlam ever perpetrated. 

The Herald Sun’s s front page report yesterday on the latest scheme to be rorted came almost as a comic interlude, since the Government’s Solar Hot Water Rebate - another “stimulus” package - at least involves less than $1 billion (just) of your money. 

Consider: here’s a “green” scheme that’s meant to pay $1600 a pop to install solar hot water systems in (only) private homes, but which instead pays for banks of up to 17 free hot water showers at a time for small football clubs like Koondrook-Barham’s, and without even hooking the units up to those feel-good solar panels. 

Is anyone in Canberra looking after your money? Hello? 

The answer, I fear, is no. In fact the carelessness with which this Government spends billions of our now-vanished national savings on rubbish is so monumental that few voters seem able to grasp it. 

Take the utter ****-up the Government made of its signature “stimulus” package - its plan to stick free insulation into the homes of people who hadn’t thought it worth their own good money. 

On Wednesday, while most of the Canberra press gallery was off reporting on the Indonesian President’s visit, Greg Combet, the Assistant Minister for Energy Efficiency and for Fixing Government Disasters, finally slipped out the statistics that show the staggering scale of this waste. 

I’ll spare you the adjectives, and give you just the numbers that tell the tale. 

Homes installed: 1,200,000. 
Cost so far: $1.5 billion. 
Installers killed: 4. 
Homes given bad insulation: 160,000. 
Homes now at risk of fire: 78,500. 
Homes burned: 105 
Homes at risk of electrification: 1500. 
Homes with incomplete insulation: 95,000. 
Homes with fraudulent installations: 5000. 

THAT adds up to about 340,000 homes given bad, dangerous, incomplete or even non-existent insulation, including 50,000 now so dangerous that Combet says they must have the stuff the Government installed ripped out or protected by the installation of safety switches. 

The cost of fixing up this disaster? Perhaps $450 million, warns the National Electrical Contractors Association, not including the $41 million the Government is paying to retrain the people it threw out of work when it belatedly scrapped its mad scheme.  

Your money again. What an incredible, incredible waste. 

Oh, but we meant well, cries the Government. We had to spend all this to save you from the recession. 

Oh, really? Sinclair Davidson, professor of institutional economics at RMIT University, has compared the size of Rudd’s “stimulus” spending to those of other developed countries, and concludes: “The Australian stimulus was massive compared to most other OECD economies while our unemployment performance was average. 

“As I keep saying, the Government panicked and spent far too much money that we now know was poorly allocated on projects that were not carefully thought through.” 

True. Your billions have gone on insulation that’s now being removed, and some schools that should be closed. 

It’s gone on “cash splashes” that went down the pokies, and on pink batts that sent houses up in smoke. 

It’s gone on massive margins charged by name-my-own price builders and on insulation shonks who charged for work they never did. 

It’s gone on Saturday showers for footballers, and on rush orders for Chinese exporters wondering who’d need so much of their shoddy stuff so fast. 

Oh, but there’s one statistic I haven’t yet given. How many ministers have lost their jobs for sending your cash to the scheizenhausen? 

But you know. It’s zero.


----------



## Calliope (21 April 2010)

Excellent post bunyip. It doesn't augur well for the implementation of the health reform package. The chances of much of this money filtering through to the work face is remote. 

It shows what happens when we trust economic amateurs to run the Government. Cost efficiency is not in their vocabulary.


----------



## bunyip (21 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Excellent post bunyip. It doesn't augur well for the implementation of the health reform package. The chances of much of this money filtering through to the work face is remote.
> 
> It shows what happens when we trust economic amateurs to run the Government. Cost efficiency is not in their vocabulary.





The same thought occurred to me too Calliope. Given the appalling incompetence of the Rudd government in their handling of their various policies, reforms, and stimulus packages etc, it's difficult to feel confident of their ability to efficiently implement their health reform package. Or anything else for that matter.


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## So_Cynical (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> LOL@pilots ... they still have 150 people on staff for this dept. and ZERO result. Pigs in the trough, pigs in the trough.




Trainspotter im wondering if you have ever heard of something called the Australian Green house office? im guessing you haven't so let me fill you in a little...*The AGO was created by the Howard Govt* in its first term as basically a political move to show the electorate that the govt was serious about GHG issues and spending money to do something about it....while ignoring Kyoto

This office handed out grants to projects totalling over 200 mill from memory, and according to the linked document, spent around 50 million annually for 5 years on public servants....running a program. giving away money to organisations that already had money so they could produce plans for projects that never reduced GHG's....over 400 million spent and ZERO result.

Just for the record.

http://www.environment.gov.au/about/publications/budget/2004/paes/pubs/ago.pdf


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## bunyip (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Trainspotter im wondering if you have ever heard of something called the Australian Green house office? im guessing you haven't so let me fill you in a little...*The AGO was created by the Howard Govt* in its first term as basically a political move to show the electorate that the govt was serious about GHG issues and spending money to do something about it....while ignoring Kyoto
> 
> This office handed out grants to projects totalling over 200 mill from memory, and according to the linked document, spent around 50 million annually for 5 years on public servants....running a program. giving away money to organisations that already had money so they could produce plans for projects that never reduced GHG's....over 400 million spent and ZERO result.
> 
> ...




This thread is about Rudd, not Howard.
The Howard government is no longer in power. Rudd is. 

Nobody but a fool would be happy with the way Rudd is splashing money around like a drunken sailor.
Nobody but a fool would be happy with his handling of the illegal immigration issue.
Nobody but a fool would be happy that many millions of dollars of the stimulation package went into the pokies. 
Nobody but a fool would be happy that tens of millions of dollars of the economic stimulation money went overseas to people who no longer live in Australia.
Nobody but a fool would be happy that our money is being used to buy unneeded school buildings at three or four times the normal price.
Nobody but a fool would be happy with the total stuff up and enormous expense of the home insulation scheme.

Rather than trying to defend Rudd while you throw stones at a previous government that's no longer in power, perhaps a more responsible attitude would be to ask yourself if you're happy with Rudd's performance so far.


----------



## nioka (21 April 2010)

It may be time to remember that it is the SAME public "servants" that work implementing the Rudd program that worked implementing the Howard program. Maybe it is the failings of the public service that should be called to account.


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## So_Cynical (21 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> perhaps a more responsible attitude would be to ask yourself if you're happy with Rudd's performance so far.




Overall yes...would be helpful if the senate would actually pass some of the Govt's legislative agenda...pretty hard to get any major reforms happening without the senate at-least cooperating a little....but that's politics.


----------



## noco (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> LOL@pilots ... they still have 150 people on staff for this dept. and ZERO result. Pigs in the trough, pigs in the trough.




trainspotter, those 154 ETS staff together with another 146 have been transferrd to help sort out the HOME INSULATION DEBACLE, so they are now gainfully employed, at a cost of course to the tax payer.


----------



## noco (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Overall yes...would be helpful if the senate would actually pass some of the Govt's legislative agenda...pretty hard to get any major reforms happening without the senate at-least cooperating a little....but that's politics.



Thank goodness we have a watch dog senate and not a lap dog senate to scrutinize and monitor the good from the bad Rudd policies otherwise we could be in  even worse cicumstances than we are now. I understand the senate has passed more than 80% of the Governments legislative agenda. What do expect 100%? I hope not!!!!!!
Rudd keeps demanding the senate gets out of the way. What does Rudd want? A DICTATORSHIP. Must I remind you we live in a democracy. He would like nothing more than to be Emperor Rudd and treat our citizens like he treats his staff.


----------



## moXJO (21 April 2010)

Julia said:


> And that's exactly the point.  Rudd's superiority in the polls at present imo represents much less any liking from the public for him, or any conviction about the success of his policies, than a reflection of the woeful quality of the Opposition.




Yup exactly..... Just look at NSW state govt.


----------



## drsmith (21 April 2010)

noco said:


> Rudd keeps demanding the senate gets out of the way.



Paul Keating called them unrepresentative swill but he at least had goals beyond the political.

Perhaps the answer is an ALP government with a Coalition controlled Senate. Then nothing would happen and that might be a good thing.


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## todster (21 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> How Rudd blows your billions
> Andrew Bolt
> Friday, March 12, 2010 at 07:11am
> 
> ...




As you seem to be up to speed on these issues could you give me a rough estimate of how much of this money would return to government coffers through taxes


----------



## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Trainspotter im wondering if you have ever heard of something called the Australian Green house office? im guessing you haven't so let me fill you in a little...*The AGO was created by the Howard Govt* in its first term as basically a political move to show the electorate that the govt was serious about GHG issues and spending money to do something about it....while ignoring Kyoto
> 
> This office handed out grants to projects totalling over 200 mill from memory, and according to the linked document, spent around 50 million annually for 5 years on public servants....running a program. giving away money to organisations that already had money so they could produce plans for projects that never reduced GHG's....over 400 million spent and ZERO result.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the segway So_Cynical ... still waiting for a reply from previous posts but Oh well ...... you get that.

Yesssssssssss little Johnny did take seriously Global Warming and looooooooong before an ETS ?? You did question me about "The good 'ol days" with NO ETS, green house gasses were something that affected the rest of the world, all we had to worry about were 700 Iraqis on boats trying to que  (sic) jump," ?? Slipped your mind did it? LOLOLOL 

So ALL this money that had been previously spent with it's mountains of data and knowledge were completely ignored by Herr Rudd and Co only to propogate another Dept. to investigate what had already been discovered? ROFL.

This was all done PRIOR to Copenhagen (GG our secret codeword is out in the public domain) prior to Al Gore fantacism (where is he by the way, must be with Penny Wong) and long before it became a catch cry of the collective masses bleating carbon neutral vehicles and eco friendly co habitation environments.


Is this the best you can come up with So_Cynical? A fart in a bottle? (make sure it is not methane) Next time don't bring a knife to a gun fight or I might just have to get serious. :


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## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

nioka said:


> It may be time to remember that it is the SAME public "servants" that work implementing the Rudd program that worked implementing the Howard program. Maybe it is the failings of the public service that should be called to account.




I have s sudden found respect for this navel gazing knowledge. They are paid by the hour by the way irrespective of who their masters are!


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## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

todster said:


> As you seem to be up to speed on these issues could you give me a rough estimate of how much of this money would return to government coffers through taxes




At last count it was over 8 BILLION DOLLARS of waste !!  OMFG ! If you are looking at a tax rate then sadly I cannot be of much help as the ATO have gone silent on this matter.


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## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Overall yes...would be helpful if the senate would actually pass some of the Govt's legislative agenda...pretty hard to get any major reforms happening without the senate at-least cooperating a little....but that's politics.




Happy with what exactly ?? Please explain? I look forward to the achievements according to So_Cynical of the Labor Guvment and all it's glory.


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## todster (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Thanks for the segway So_Cynical ... still waiting for a reply from previous posts but Oh well ...... you get that.
> 
> Yesssssssssss little Johnny did take seriously Global Warming and looooooooong before an ETS ?? You did question me about "The good 'ol days" with NO ETS, green house gasses were something that affected the rest of the world, all we had to worry about were 700 Iraqis on boats trying to que  (sic) jump," ?? Slipped your mind did it? LOLOLOL
> 
> ...




Segway is that where you get them foot long rolls from lol


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## So_Cynical (21 April 2010)

noco said:


> Thank goodness we have a watch dog senate and not a lap dog senate to scrutinize and monitor the good from the bad Rudd policies otherwise we could be in  even worse cicumstances than we are now. I understand the senate has passed more than 80% of the Governments legislative agenda. What do expect 100%? I hope not!!!!!!
> Rudd keeps demanding the senate gets out of the way. What does Rudd want? A DICTATORSHIP. Must I remind you we live in a democracy. He would like nothing more than to be Emperor Rudd and treat our citizens like he treats his staff.




Back in the good old days the Democrat's used to control the senate and actually let the coalition get there bills thru...until they stupidly (Meg Lees) approved the GST legislation...which Rudd is stealthily now trying to claw back from the states...if only Johnny hadn't given it all away. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Lees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)


----------



## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Back in the good old days the Democrat's used to control the senate and actually let the coalition get there bills thru...until they stupidly (Meg Lees) approved the GST legislation...which Rudd is stealthily now trying to claw back from the states...if only Johnny hadn't given it all away.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Lees
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)




A true insight of galactic proportions .. some rationale at last ! BRAVO , BRAVO, clap clap clap !


----------



## So_Cynical (21 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Thanks for the segway So_Cynical ... still waiting for a reply from previous posts but Oh well ...... you get that.
> 
> Yesssssssssss little Johnny did take seriously Global Warming and looooooooong before an ETS ?? You did question me about "The good 'ol days" with NO ETS, green house gasses were something that affected the rest of the world, all we had to worry about were 700 Iraqis on boats trying to que  (sic) jump," ?? Slipped your mind did it? LOLOLOL
> 
> ...




Previous post...segway huh, you made a silly comment about public service waste and i responded with a Howard Govt example...and now your ranting and clearly lost the plot.

You were so coherent just a couple of pages ago...what happened?

Sarcasm is so easily lost on a forum...Howards green house office was created as a political stunt, a 400 million dollar distraction, so he and other ministers could say they were doing something about 'global warming" while withdrawing from IPCC meetings and Kyoto framework discussions.

They spent 400 million on nothing...i remember a wave project up in the Kimberly got 7 million for a feasibility study...but you wont ever see a tidal energy project up there, the money was totally wasted.


----------



## bunyip (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Overall yes...would be helpful if the senate would actually pass some of the Govt's legislative agenda...pretty hard to get any major reforms happening without the senate at-least cooperating a little....but that's politics.




OK - so overall you're happy with the Rudd governments performance. You're easily pleased - most of us don't regard continuous incompetence, reckless spending, one stuff up after another, and massively increased debt as satisfactory performance from a government.

It seems that even Rudd himself disagrees with you, judging by his recent comment of _*'We're taking a whacking in the polls, and quite frankly, we deserve a whacking'. *_
This was nothing less than a surprisingly candid admission of the serious shortcomings and substandard performance of himself and his government.


----------



## bunyip (21 April 2010)

todster said:


> As you seem to be up to speed on these issues could you give me a rough estimate of how much of this money would return to government coffers through taxes




Todster ol' son - I wouldn't waste my time in trying to give you such an estimate. Since you're the one who wants an estimate, I'll let you provide your own.

I do hope though, that you're not silly enough to suggest that Rudd's outrageous and irresponsible expenditure is justified on the basis of the taxes it generates for the government!


----------



## noco (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Back in the good old days the Democrat's used to control the senate and actually let the coalition get there bills thru...until they stupidly (Meg Lees) approved the GST legislation...which Rudd is stealthily now trying to claw back from the states...if only Johnny hadn't given it all away.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Lees
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)




Yes,Comrade KRudd has an ulterior motive for clawing back the GST and we all know what he is hidding.
The Labor Party were going to wind back the GST. All talk and no action.
The Labor states love it. So tell me dear so cynical, what don't you like about the GST?


----------



## So_Cynical (21 April 2010)

noco said:


> So tell me dear so cynical, what don't you like about the GST?




I didn't say i didn't like it, just said in a round about way that Johnny made a mistake giving it all to the states and now i get the impression Rudd's trying to get some back via the health reform.

The states love the GST cos its a growth tax that just grows and grows with the economy...if Rudd can get some back it will be another great achievement from this can do government...i just hope they have a DD election and clean out the senate.


----------



## trainspotter (21 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Previous post...segway huh, you made a silly comment about public service waste and i responded with a Howard Govt example...and now your ranting and clearly lost the plot.
> 
> You were so coherent just a couple of pages ago...what happened?
> 
> ...




A silly comment about public waste??  I am ranting and losing the plot? I am still waiting for a response from previous posts but once again I digress to keep the harmonious relationship in ASF. 

So you would prefer this Labor Guvt to sign up for an ETS that cripples the economy? Are you aware that the top 3 electricity polluters of China pour more Co2 into the atmosphere in 1 month then the UK does in one year? Are you aware that Australia in it's entirety is less than 0.2% Globally of the whole warming fiasco?? And you want me to talk about waste and sarcasm?? Where is this ETS now So_Cynical?? Where is Penny Wong and her cohorts claiming this is the most important moral global issue we have ever faced? Where are the salespeople? Who has been out there arguing passionately and compellingly that climate change is real, and urgent? As everyone agrees, the Prime Minister has been missing in action for a year or more. His minister, Penny Wong, is robotic. Peter Garrett has been sidelined. Only Greg Combet has summoned up any discernible passion on the topic and he now heads up the Pink Batt Fiasco??? Copenahgen = FAIL

Yes dear little Johnny wasted tax payers money on "schemes" that they thought were appropriate during their time in politics. No one is disputing this So_Cynical. Was it a waste at the time ... YES .... was it a waste of time and money NOW ?? I would think not if all this information has been passed onto the relevant authorities who would use this to formulate an informed response and NOT try and rush into signing a deal that China, the U.S. and other major polluters have so far refused to sign. WHY IS THIS SO ??

Wasted, sarcasm, silly comments, political stunt ... call it what you will So_Cynical ... it appears what was good for Johnny is even better for KRudd.


----------



## todster (21 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> Todster ol' son - I wouldn't waste my time in trying to give you such an estimate. Since you're the one who wants an estimate, I'll let you provide your own.
> 
> I do hope though, that you're not silly enough to suggest that Rudd's outrageous and irresponsible expenditure is justified on the basis of the taxes it generates for the government!




No you use a dozen schools out of how many as an example,is there any out there that got what they wanted or is the whole scheme corrupt.Cmon.
The money is in the economy as planned i suspect
And they will get a good slice back through tax
A big part of construction materials are actually OZ made believe it or not
bricks mortar steel,cheer up fellas WA and QLD will float your busted **** states


----------



## bunyip (21 April 2010)

todster said:


> No you use a dozen schools out of how many as an example,is there any out there that got what they wanted or is the whole scheme corrupt.Cmon.
> The money is in the economy as planned i suspect
> And they will get a good slice back through tax
> A big part of construction materials are actually OZ made believe it or not
> bricks mortar steel,cheer up fellas WA and QLD will float your busted **** states




Yes, there may well be some schools out there that got what they wanted. 
That, however, does not excuse the outrageous waste of taxpayers money on Rudd's ill-considered and poorly managed schemes, whether it's spending on schools or home insulation or whatever. 
If you're looking for return through taxes, you'll always get more return on money invested wisely than on money wasted irresponsibly.

Like you, I fully understand the concept of government spending to sell goods, create jobs and produce revenue for government coffers. 
But trying to justify *completely irresponsible and reckless expenditure* on the basis of the taxes it produces, is about as silly as trying to justify the drug trade on the basis of how many jobs it creates and how much taxation revenue it produces.

If you're not concerned about your money being splashed around recklessly, you should be. It's you and me and everyone else who has to pay for it sooner or later.


----------



## todster (22 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> Yes, there may well be some schools out there that got what they wanted.
> That, however, does not excuse the outrageous waste of taxpayers money on Rudd's ill-considered and poorly managed schemes, whether it's spending on schools or home insulation or whatever.
> If you're looking for return through taxes, you'll always get more return on money invested wisely than on money wasted irresponsibly.
> 
> ...




You know i read the newspaper daily watch  a bit of news,this is the only place and afew letters to the editor that i ever hear about it.
No one seems to care.
Not trying to justify,just a little balance 
Drugs trade,jobs,tax your comparison has lost me


----------



## Calliope (22 April 2010)

It is a refreshing change that the Rudd gang have tacitly admitted that they can't manage the home insulation scheme and have decided to abandon it

It's only a matter of time before they come to the same conclusion about the BER, the Agoriginal housing scheme, the  Broadband scheme and eventually the health reform fiasco.

It's a shame that so many billions have to go down the gurgler, before they come to their senses and realise they are incapable of managing anything.

It will be interesting to see them trying to put a positive spin on their failure. Probably;

Blame Howard,

Blame Abbott,

They did it to save Australia from recession,

Etc.


----------



## todster (22 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> It is a refreshing change that the Rudd gang have tacitly admitted that they can't manage the home insulation scheme and have decided to abandon it
> 
> It's only a matter of time before they come to the same conclusion about the BER, the Agoriginal housing scheme, the  Broadband scheme and eventually the health reform fiasco.
> 
> ...




It depends on your perception of failure.
Come election time the masses will decide.
A small part of me hopes for a Lib win just to see Barnaby and The Monk steering the ship


----------



## bunyip (22 April 2010)

todster said:


> You know i read the newspaper daily watch  a bit of news,this is the only place and afew letters to the editor that i ever hear about it.
> No one seems to care.
> Not trying to justify,just a little balance
> Drugs trade,jobs,tax your comparison has lost me




It would be stretching it to say that nobody seems to care. But it's probably true to say that not enough people care to do anything about it, such as voting this hopelessly incompetent government out at the next election. This kind of lethargy is one of the problems in Australia - the average person is  too mentally lazy to keep themselves up to date with what our government is doing, and to hold them accountable for their actions.

My mention of the drug trade was in reference to another thread on this forum in which one poster attempted to justify the drug trade on the basis of it's economic contribution to Australia. For outright foolishness, that's on a par with trying to justify Rudd's horrific waste of money on overpriced school buildings and home insulation schemes, on the basis of how much taxes they'll generate for the government.

You're not trying to justify Rudd and Gillard splashing out three or four times the normal price for school buildings? Pleased to hear it. However, your comment about how much tax this scheme will generate for the government gave me the very clear impression that you were in fact trying to justify Rudd's appalling waste of our money.

I presume we're agreed then - government spending on these various schemes will certainly generate revenue for the government, but nothing justifies the incompetent and financially wasteful manner in which these schemes have been implemented.


----------



## noco (22 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> I didn't say i didn't like it, just said in a round about way that Johnny made a mistake giving it all to the states and now i get the impression Rudd's trying to get some back via the health reform.
> 
> The states love the GST cos its a growth tax that just grows and grows with the economy...if Rudd can get some back it will be another great achievement from this can do government...i just hope they have a DD election and clean out the senate.




Well So_Cynical you want Rudd to have control of the senate. Do you want Emporer Rudd to become a dictator like Magabe. If it happens, he will do anything to stay in power including vote rigging. The Labor Party already do it now with the fake use of Family First just to gain preferences and it is well known in Townsville there has been many so called 'independant candidates' (Labor plants) at various local, state and federal levels  who insist on giving their preference to Labor. Most of the locals know they are just Labor Party stooges. It has been proved in Townsville some Labor voters have voted up to ten times at different polling boths and Rudd turns a blind eye to it instead of bringing in some legislation to produce some ID when voting. They are a shifty lot up here, beleive me.
Even Labor's local Townsville branch did not have a say who would be their candidate at the next election. Rudd  used his power to over ride the locals decision to promote his mate Tony Mooney, a recycled Ex Mayor.

You stated that stupid Meg Lees gave Howard the power to introduce the GST, so you obviously did not like it for one reason or another.

Now So_Cynical, what have you got to say about the Home Insulation Program being scrapped? Yes I know, your answer will be "look at all the jobs it created to get us out of the GFC." Don't worry about the cost to fix it, plenty more money where that came from. 

My God, how can you still say Rudd has done a good job. I hate to think how his so called Health Reform will turn out. But then again on his so called plan, he can blame the states if things go wrong heh!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

todster said:


> You know i read the newspaper daily watch  a bit of news,this is the only place and afew letters to the editor that i ever hear about it.
> No one seems to care.
> Not trying to justify,just a little balance
> Drugs trade,jobs,tax your comparison has lost me




Welcome to media 101 todster.


----------



## todster (22 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> It would be stretching it to say that nobody seems to care. But it's probably true to say that not enough people care to do anything about it, such as voting this hopelessly incompetent government out at the next election. This kind of lethargy is one of the problems in Australia - the average person is  too mentally lazy to keep themselves up to date with what our government is doing, and to hold them accountable for their actions.
> 
> My mention of the drug trade was in reference to another thread on this forum in which one poster attempted to justify the drug trade on the basis of it's economic contribution to Australia. For outright foolishness, that's on a par with trying to justify Rudd's horrific waste of money on overpriced school buildings and home insulation schemes, on the basis of how much taxes they'll generate for the government.
> 
> ...




Value for money would be a better description
As i have learnt in here there's a big difference between whats somethings value compared to cost
Theres more schools in a 10km radius from my house than you mentioned
and some have the Fed Gov sign out the front and i have heard zero negative response,very selective reporting me thinks
To the average punter you go and vote because you have to,check local Gov elections for example.


----------



## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

todster said:


> Value for money would be a better description
> As i have learnt in here there's a big difference between whats somethings value compared to cost
> Theres more schools in a 10km radius from my house than you mentioned
> and some have the Fed Gov sign out the front and i have heard zero negative response,very selective reporting me thinks
> To the average punter you go and vote because you have to,check local Gov elections for example.




Todster you do realise that the school is NEVER going to complain for fear of missing out on any future funding? Also that school teachers are probably right up there with wharfies when it comes to militant union action? You do realise that the media is a pack of card carrying Laborites? Journalists have to be a member of the AJA or they simply do not get a job. Sound familiar? No ticket No start kinda stuff.

How can you get factual reporting when the system let's you down? Ming Chow Kluddy sees all and knows all and is a very good media manipulator. All  those mornings with Mel & Koshie were a means to an end to get in tight with the mums and dads as they slurped down their Weetbix in the morning and to make Joe Hockey look like a fat dunce who is easily flustered into saying the wrong thing. DOH !


----------



## todster (22 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Todster you do realise that the school is NEVER going to complain for fear of missing out on any future funding? Also that school teachers are probably right up there with wharfies when it comes to militant union action? You do realise that the media is a pack of card carrying Laborites? Journalists have to be a member of the AJA or they simply do not get a job. Sound familiar? No ticket No start kinda stuff.
> 
> How can you get factual reporting when the system let's you down? Ming Chow Kluddy sees all and knows all and is a very good media manipulator. All  those mornings with Mel & Koshie were a means to an end to get in tight with the mums and dads as they slurped down their Weetbix in the morning and to make Joe Hockey look like a fat dunce who is easily flustered into saying the wrong thing. DOH !



Easy fixed lock all schools down employ security guards from NZ with dogs and Johns your uncle
Hey the good old days


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## Calliope (22 April 2010)

I'm surprised that you guys take this todster seriously. I can only repeat the one-liner;

"Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience."


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## nioka (22 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> I'm surprised that you guys take this todster seriously. I can only repeat the one-liner;
> 
> "Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience."




We are all fools in someones eyes. At what level are your continuous Rudd bashing posts? They are becoming monotonous and repetitive.


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## Calliope (22 April 2010)

nioka said:


> We are all fools in someones eyes. At what level are your continuous Rudd bashing posts? They are becoming monotonous and repetitive.




Sorry about that. Perhaps, if you can't think of any achievements, you should log off.


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## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

nioka said:


> We are all fools in someones eyes. At what level are your continuous Rudd bashing posts? They are becoming monotonous and repetitive.




You will also see that I equally have bashed the mad monk for his lack of identity and the fact that the more he stays quiet the better off he is in the polls. LOLOL Tony Abbott for PM I think is the thread.


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## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> I'm surprised that you guys take this todster seriously. I can only repeat the one-liner;
> 
> "Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience."




Never a truer word spoken comrade Calliope !


----------



## nioka (22 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Sorry about that. Perhaps, if you can't think of any achievements, you should log off.




I'll log off. You beat me with experience.


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## nioka (22 April 2010)

Had to log back on after finding what may be the answer to the high cost of the school improvement plan.

" Three contractors are bidding on a school extension.

A canberra contractor works out some figures and comes up with $90,000. He explains the price as $40,000 for labour,$40,000 for materials and $10,000 profit. The Melbourne based contractor goes into discussions with his staff and comes up with $70,000 and explains it with $30,000 for labour, $30,000 for materials and $10,000 profit.
The Sydney contractor doesn't even consult the plans etc but straight out quotes $170,000. The government official askes how he arrived at that price. The Sydney bloke whispers to the official "$50,000 for you, $50,000 for me and we hire the Melbourne bloke to do the job.

"done" is the reply. And that may be the answer to how a stimulus plan works.


----------



## drsmith (22 April 2010)

nioka said:


> The Sydney bloke whispers to the official "$50,000 for you, $50,000 for me and we hire the Melbourne bloke to do the job.
> 
> "done" is the reply. And that may be the answer to how a stimulus plan works.



There's no practical reason why this could not happen. The Sydney contractor would obviously have to declare the full amount on his tax ($170k, $100k profit) so the negotiated outcome may be different in that it is equal after taking into account the Sydney bloke's tax on the $100k profit.

The official can then spend his share (perhaps after hiding it under the bed for a little) thus satisfying the government criteria of economic stimilus. That then gives the government a warm, fuzzy feeling as they have maintained economic growth and helped those who are politically alligned with them.

God help us!


----------



## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

*FAIL *


*THE Rudd Government has broken its promise to build 260 new childcare centres. *

Child Care Minister Kate Ellis today said a new report showed there were 65,780 long day care vacancies every day and out of pocket costs for working families had halved so there was no need to deliver the pledge.

Ms Ellis claimed if the Government built more child care centres it would "threaten the viability'' of those already operating and could hurt families.

Kevin Rudd had promised his Government would build 260 early learning and child care centres to help working families. Now only 38 of those centres will be built.

"The evidence tells us that an injection of more centres could threaten the viability of existing services and cause disruption for Australian families, just as the market is settling after the collapse of ABC Learning,'' Ms Ellis said.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...hildcare-centres/story-e6frfku0-1225856967587

It just gets better and better ! Ever tried to get a position for your kids in Daycare?? I don't know where they get their intel from BUT I can assure you there is a waiting list and NOT an oversupply !


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## noco (22 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> *FAIL *
> 
> 
> *THE Rudd Government has broken its promise to build 260 new childcare centres. *
> ...




And the Rudd controlled media lets it all slip through to the keeper. That's our Prime Minister!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## moXJO (22 April 2010)

noco said:


> And the Rudd controlled media lets it all slip through to the keeper. That's our Prime Minister!!!!!!!!!!




That should be on the achievement list.


----------



## bunyip (22 April 2010)

nioka said:


> Had to log back on after finding what may be the answer to the high cost of the school improvement plan.
> 
> " Three contractors are bidding on a school extension.
> 
> ...




Well however it works, there's corruption in there somewhere. There will be an investigation of some kind, and hopefully Julia Gillards head will be on the line if the truth ever comes out.


----------



## sam76 (22 April 2010)

Fail:

Rudd government promising 260 new child care centres before election and only delivering 38 before pulling the plug citing 'not needed' 

How many votes did that buy before hand and lose today...

This government is pathetic.


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## Julia (22 April 2010)

Yep, and according to Chris Urhlman on the 7.30 Report this evening, hardly any journalists turned up to the press conference announcing the non-building of the promised childcare centres because the advice of the announcement gave no indication what it was about.

In the event the reduction in centres was quietly buried in the middle of a larger amount of waffle.

And significantly, the news was dwarfed by the football scandal.
Surely no one thinks that's just a coincidence.

In fact, though, I'm quite happy that my tax dollars are not funding more child care centres.  That should be the province of private enterprise, imo.


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## noco (23 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Yep, and according to Chris Urhlman on the 7.30 Report this evening, hardly any journalists turned up to the press conference announcing the non-building of the promised childcare centres because the advice of the announcement gave no indication what it was about.
> 
> In the event the reduction in centres was quietly buried in the middle of a larger amount of waffle.
> 
> ...




Julia, the reason these events are not highlighted by the media is because the Labor Party have deeply infiltrated into a very large percentage of the media. This is typical communist tactics whereby they control the media to prevent adverse comments which would be too critical of Rudd. If those announcements like the reduction in preschool centres and the scrapping of the Home Insulation scheme had been made by the Coalition, the media would have been all over them.

Make no mistake, when Rudd was in China he undoubtly learnt how that Government operates to prevent adverse comments by controlling the media. But he has not gone as far as China once did and shoot dissidents for disagreeing with the Government. They may still do. I don't know what the latest is and perhaps many others don't either.

Many of us will remember how communism infitrated into unions in the 50's and 60's with the sole objective of creating havoc in big business. Their modus operandi was to create discontent with workers, create financial strain on Western economies and turn workers into beleiving communism was a better way of life. Make no mistake Russia wanted to achieve world domination, but fortunately their propaganda failed. The communist party even had their radio station in Austarlia at one stage.

Rudd also wants to stay in power and control of the media is his weapon.


----------



## trainspotter (23 April 2010)

EPIC FAIL - Child Care Centre broken promise - Why hasn't the opposition leader Tony Mad Monk Abbott got hold of this and beaten it to death like an Iraqi prisoner of war? Where is Joe Hockey? He used to go toe to toe with Hung Chow Kluddy and now they put up Abbot vs Gillard on the morning show? WTF?? I watched it this morning and could not drink my coffee I was so disgusted. Apparently it is the Liberals fault that ABC learning centres went broke because some of the board members had a lien to the Liberal Party? I mean WTF? They even showed some footage of Gillard in Feb 2010 saying the Govt is doing somehting about the Child Care Centres placement as there was a massive shortage !! Come April 23rd and now there isn't a massive shortage and the Govt has done NUFFIN ??? I really mean it this time WTF?? Where is the media coverage on this? And the dopey, jug eared,  fitness fanatic, anti abortionist thickhead at the other end of the table didn't do a damn thing other than say "SeaEagles should get the Premiership for 2007!" I cannot fuggen believe it?? W T F is that all about ???


----------



## Calliope (23 April 2010)

nioka said:


> Had to log back on after finding what may be the answer to the high cost of the school improvement plan.
> 
> " Three contractors are bidding on a school extension.
> 
> ...




I note you rapid back flip. Are you listing this as a Rudd Governmant achievement?


----------



## nioka (23 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> I note you rapid back flip. Are you listing this as a Rudd Governmant achievement?




No. I'm published that as an example of "no matter what the government of the day does with the best of intentions the bureaucrats will stuff it up."


----------



## trainspotter (23 April 2010)

*FAIL* - TAXPAYERS are to pay more than $4 million for an audit of the Federal Government's failed Green Loans Program - with fraud squarely in its sights. 

Aspects to be investigated include false reports, claims for non-existent properties and excessive claims.

Federal Climate Change Minister Penny Wong says reported breaches by home assessors trained for the scheme will also be investigated

Before the last election, Labor pledged to grant no-interest loans of up to $10,000 to improve energy efficiency in up to 200,000 homes. The $300 million program was to fund measures such as solar panels and low-energy lighting but the Government axed the botched scheme in February.

The loans are no longer available but assessments are still being carried out.

"Obviously the Government has become aware of some anecdotal evidence and potential cases of non-compliant activity as potentially fraudulent activity under this program," Senator Wong said.
*
The audit will cost $4.28 million and involve scrutiny of 9000 assessments.*


----------



## Calliope (23 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> *FAIL* - TAXPAYERS are to pay more than $4 million for an audit of the Federal Government's failed Green Loans Program - with fraud squarely in its sights...
> The audit will cost $4.28 million and involve scrutiny of 9000 assessments.[/B]




The government is in overdrive to sweep all their balls-ups under the carpet before the election. Guess who gets the bill.


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2010)

nioka said:


> No. I'm published that as an example of "no matter what the government of the day does with the best of intentions the bureaucrats will stuff it up."



Flood any sector of the economy with money and they know what's going to happen.


----------



## noco (23 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> The government is in overdrive to sweep all their balls-ups under the carpet before the election. Guess who gets the bill.




Calliope, didn't you know the buck stops with Kevvie!!!! That's our PrimeMinister!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Calliope (23 April 2010)

Children overboard?


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> The government is in overdrive to sweep all their balls-ups under the carpet before the election. Guess who gets the bill.



We'll know the election's close when he starts ordering the navy to sink the boats.


----------



## trainspotter (23 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Children overboard?




The most insightful cartoon commentary I have seen in a very, very long time !


----------



## Julia (23 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> *FAIL* - TAXPAYERS are to pay more than $4 million for an audit of the Federal Government's failed Green Loans Program - with fraud squarely in its sights.
> 
> Aspects to be investigated include false reports, claims for non-existent properties and excessive claims.
> 
> ...



And Peter Garrett is still receiving a Cabinet Minister's salary!
***** unbelievable!.



Calliope said:


> Children overboard?



That's one of the funniest cartoons I've seen in ages.  Thanks, Calliope.



drsmith said:


> We'll know the election's close when he starts ordering the navy to sink the boats.



  So true.


----------



## Macquack (24 April 2010)

noco said:


> Julia, the reason these events are not highlighted by the media is because the Labor Party have deeply infiltrated into a very large percentage of the media. *This is typical communist tactics *whereby they control the media to prevent adverse comments which would be too critical of Rudd.
> *Many of us will remember how communism infitrated into unions *in the 50's and 60's with the sole objective of creating havoc in big business. Their modus operandi was to create discontent with workers, create financial strain on Western economies and turn workers into beleiving communism was a better way of life. Make no mistake Russia wanted to achieve world domination, but fortunately their propaganda failed. The communist party even had their radio station in Austarlia at one stage.
> 
> Rudd also wants to stay in power and control of the media is his weapon.




Watch out for those "reds under the bed".


----------



## bigdog (24 April 2010)

Kevin Rudd like a "lantern"; he is very bright but needs to be carried.


----------



## Calliope (24 April 2010)

Macquack said:


> Watch out for those "reds under the bed".




I think you would be under there with them.


----------



## Calliope (24 April 2010)

Even Laurie Oaks had woken up to what a nasty failure Rudd really is. I would be interested to hear the spin the Rudd-lovers put on this cowardly behaviour.

*A cowardly way to lead*



> ONE of the defining moments of the 2004 election campaign came when Mark Latham ducked out the back door of a building in Hobart to avoid facing angry Tasmanian timber workers.
> 
> Kevin Rudd did not resort to sneaking out of rear entrances when he went to Hobart on Thursday, but he was dodging an unpleasant duty just the same.
> 
> ...




http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/opinion/a-cowardly-way-to-lead/story-e6freakc-1225857700645


----------



## noco (24 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> I think you would be under there with them.




Good one Calliope, I agree.These sort of people don't telegragh their moves and motives, but the one's even with half a brain can read between the lines.


----------



## Julia (24 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Even Laurie Oaks had woken up to what a nasty failure Rudd really is. I would be interested to hear the spin the Rudd-lovers put on this cowardly behaviour.
> 
> *A cowardly way to lead*
> 
> ...



Yes, and further he had Kate Ellis deliver the news about the non-building of the promised childcare centres.
What I find amazing is that he doesn't seem to get how quickly we all realise that he's only prepared to deliver the good news stories, and that he'd score way more brownie points by being prepared to do the bad news as well.

He's pretty erratic:  not so long ago that he pursued every available media outlet with his peculiar and over-the-top mea culpa about how he had failed!


----------



## Calliope (24 April 2010)

*Rudd the Rat*

Rudd has ratted on Wong, Garrett and Combet and now Ellis.. It's only a matter of time before he rats on Gillard (BER scandal), Evans (boats shambles) and eventually Roxon when the health plan hits the fan, and of course Conroy (idiocy).

He has left the running of health with the states after finally realising that the only things his governments can run are stuff-ups. He is as cunning as a sewer rat and he always passes the buck when his grand plans fall in a heap.

His ministers will have to strike first before he rats on all of them. None of them have any reason to trust him.

The night of the long knives is imminent.


----------



## noco (24 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> *Rudd the Rat*
> 
> Rudd has ratted on Wong, Garrett and Combet and now Ellis.. It's only a matter of time before he rats on Gillard (BER scandal), Evans (boats shambles) and eventually Roxon when the health plan hits the fan, and of course Conroy (idiocy).
> 
> ...




It is inconceivable that this weasel of a Prime Minister of ours is still holding high popularity ratings even after all his failings, lieing, cheating, spin and passing the buck.
He should be sacked. Are the average Joe Blow so naive not to be able to see through this rotter?


----------



## Julia (24 April 2010)

OK, Noco, in the very unlikely event that Mr Rudd were to disappear, who would you like to see take his place?

Do you seriously think Tony Abbott would do a good job of running the country?


----------



## Knobby22 (24 April 2010)

Julia said:


> OK, Noco, in the very unlikely event that Mr Rudd were to disappear, who would you like to see take his place?
> 
> Do you seriously think Tony Abbott would do a good job of running the country?




And that's the point.
The opposition need to be ready to lead. At the moment they appear not to be.


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

Julia said:


> OK, Noco, in the very unlikely event that Mr Rudd were to disappear, who would you like to see take his place?
> 
> Do you seriously think Tony Abbott would do a good job of running the country?




Julia, if you go back in history, a big majority thought the same thimg about John Howard in the 90's.

Abbott would have to be 100% better than Rudd after all the distasters he (Rudd) has created for this counrty.

He has a higher education  than Rudd, is a Rhode scholar and has had considerable parliamentry experience. He is, imho, more intelligent than he looks.I would not be too critical of the man untill we see how he performs.

People are critical of the man because of his ears, or his too many ums when he speaks. One cannot do much about the way one looks, but when he gets trained to act like Rudd, people will most likely say he is a good fellow.


----------



## bunyip (25 April 2010)

noco said:


> It is inconceivable that this weasel of a Prime Minister of ours is still holding high popularity ratings even after all his failings, lieing, cheating, spin and passing the buck.
> He should be sacked. Are the average Joe Blow so naive not to be able to see through this rotter?




Yes Noco - the average Joe Blow is too blind and naive to see through Rudd.
Earlier on this thread we had a Rudd lover claiming to be happy overall with Rudd's performance so far! 
There are plenty of people just like him who are unwilling to open their eyes and see this government for what they are.
This sort of blind devotion to a politician or a political party is similar to the way some people are blindly devoted to a religion, even when the people in the highest office in that religion are involved in crimes against humanity, such as sexual molestation of children.
It's no different with politics - some people are always going to support a political party no matter how incompetent and dishonest they are.


----------



## Calliope (25 April 2010)

bunyip

You are right. It is because Rudd is  an expert at focussing his largesse at the right targets. The recipients are now locked on hoping for more, such as promised improved (and free) health services.

The Coalition have Buckley's chance of dislodging Rudd, mainly because they can't afford the army of spin doctors and advisers that Rudd has on call. Their job is to gloss over Rudd's failures with weasel words and distractions.

An unbiased Canberra press gallery would help.The time will come however when even they will realise this incompetent fool is a fraud, and they will be forced to come clean. The leader of the pack is Laurie Oakes, but the scales are starting to fall from even his eyes.


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> bunyip
> 
> You are right. It is because Rudd is  an expert at focussing his largesse at the right targets. The recipients are now locked on hoping for more, such as promised improved (and free) health services.
> 
> ...




Thank goodness we have the likes of Andrew Bolt to bring out Rudd's failings, lies, deceipt, broken promoses and spin.


----------



## Julia (25 April 2010)

noco said:


> Abbott would have to be 100% better than Rudd after all the distasters he (Rudd) has created for this counrty.



You'd have to hope so, but I simply don't feel confident of that, not just regarding Tony Abbott, but also the overall standard of the Coalition.
(Just consider how many ill considered statements Barnaby Joyce has made, for example.  I find the idea of him being in charge of the nation's finances just as concerning as with Mr Swan.)



> He has a higher education  than Rudd, is a Rhode scholar and has had considerable parliamentry experience. He is, imho, more intelligent than he looks.I would not be too critical of the man untill we see how he performs.



He has been leader of the opposition for a few months now, and seems no less inclined to float his thought bubbles and speak before thinking his answer through.  e.g. remember the furore that he was "going to demand that the young women of Australia remain virgins until they marry", simply because he said that was what he wanted for his daughters.
Yes, of course this is the media behaving badly, but when asked the question, why wouldn't he way more tactfully have said that that was a very personal question and one each woman would have to answer for herself, or something like that.  It's politically stupid to give the media any excuse at all for twisting a controversial remark.



> People are critical of the man because of his ears, or his too many ums when he speaks. One cannot do much about the way one looks, but when he gets trained to act like Rudd, people will most likely say he is a good fellow.



If someone expresses criticism about his ears, then they were critical of him for more important reasons before that.  No one who seriously believes in him as a person or likes his policies (whatever they may be, we don't really know yet), is going to worry about his damn ears!

And he does need to get some coaching to eliminate all the ums from his speech.  It's sometimes so pronounced one's attention is diverted from what he's actually trying to say.

I can't stand Rudd, but I'm also aware that to automatically assume the opposition will be better is a bit naive.


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

Julia said:


> You'd have to hope so, but I simply don't feel confident of that, not just regarding Tony Abbott, but also the overall standard of the Coalition.
> (Just consider how many ill considered statements Barnaby Joyce has made, for example.  I find the idea of him being in charge of the nation's finances just as concerning as with Mr Swan.)
> 
> 
> ...




Julia, come close to election time, I believe you will see a more agreesive opposition. At the present time Abbott does not have to do a lot as we see Rudd shooting himself in the foot more and more every day.

 I also beleive Abbott should hold back any opposition polices for as long as he can before the election. Abbott will have plenty of 'amo' to fire at Rudd in the next few months, that is of course, if there is not a revolt in the Labor Party in the meantime and it has been intimated.

Do you really think Rudd's ministry is any better than Abbott's shadow ministry? At least Barnaby Joyce speaks the truth and from the heart, has more financial credentials than Tanner(refer to my earlier post on Tanner's credentials) and does not lie through his teeth like Swan. Abbott also has a mostly youthfull shadow ministry who do appear to be learning fast.

A lot of people are very naive when it comes to personl image. If a politician has a nice toohy smile, can laugh and show some wit, a hell of a lot of people take that into consideration rather than their policies or their  gigantic failings. It's called wooing. There are  lot of stupid people out there who get sucked into this type of image, that's why you hear so much about Abbott's ears. Fortunately, you and I don't fall into that catagory.


----------



## Chris45 (25 April 2010)

noco said:


> If a politician has a nice toohy smile, can laugh and show some wit,



Peter Beattie LOL


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

Chris45 said:


> Peter Beattie LOL




Yes Chris, I'm pleased someone is getting my drift about these fake images. If it tastes good it must be good.


----------



## IFocus (25 April 2010)

> Julia, if you go back in history, a big majority thought the same thimg about John Howard in the 90's.




They were right he was a lying little rodent but your Liberal party membership and right wing bias will over look that.



> Abbott would have to be 100% better than Rudd after all the distasters he (Rudd) has created for this counrty.




Abbott was a  Howard hit man nothing more ask Hanson.



> He has a higher education  than Rudd, is a Rhode scholar and has had considerable parliamentry experience. He is, imho, more intelligent than he looks.I would not be too critical of the man untill we see how he performs.




Abbott has form in government plenty to be critical of. 



> People are critical of the man because of his ears, or his too many ums when he speaks. One cannot do much about the way one looks, but when he gets trained to act like Rudd, people will most likely say he is a good fellow.




To be honest I haven't seen the big ear thing why would you when he is such a hypercritical fool after making policy on the run for which he betrayed Malcolm for.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2010)

IFocus said:


> Abbott was a  Howard hit man nothing more ask Hanson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I trust that we can assume from these musings IFocus, that you are not Tony Abbott's greatest fan.

What do you think of the Ruddmeister's achievements versus failings?

gg


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I trust that we can assume from these musings IFocus, that you are not Tony Abbott's greatest fan.
> 
> What do you think of the Ruddmeister's achievements versus failings?
> 
> gg




GG, you should not have wasted your asking i-focus as he has tunnell vision and turns a blind eye to Rudd's failings.

Rudd has achieved two things:-
* said sorry to the aboriginals.
* signed the Kyoto protocol.

You could say that's about all he has achieved without a stuff up.


----------



## noco (25 April 2010)

IFocus said:


> They were right he was a lying little rodent but your Liberal party membership and right wing bias will over look that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You seem to assume I am a member of the Liberal Party or right wing and the word A-S-S-U-M-E makes an ass out of you and me.

I don't be long to any party. I have voted Labor at times and for all you know I may support the Greens, the Climate Sceptic Party, Family First or an Independant.

If you  A-S-S-U-M-E  I am right wing, then I  A-S-S-U-M-E YOU ARE A LEFT WING. Now I-Focus,  to satify my curiousity  would you be so good as to define what a left wing is and the principles of their beliefs in comparison to a right wing.

Now Rudd goes to church on Sunday's, does a press photo shoot on the steps and doesn't tell lies!!! He lies through his teeth on the church steps.

I believe the terminology of a hit man is a criminal who  does assinations for money. Is that the way you portray Tony Abbott? I hope for your sake Abbott does not pick up on you tarnishing his name in this manner for you could find yourself with a defamation case on your hands.

How can you say Abboott makes policy on the run, when Rudd in negotiations with the states changed his policy, which was written on the back of an envelope, every hour within two days. He kept adding bits and pieces to sweeten the states in handing over 30% of the GST. Is that not policy on the run?

Rudd made policy on the run when he said he would revamp the Home Insulation Scheme on the 1st June, only to scrape the whole deal leaving hundreds out of work and sending some firms broke.

He promised 260 odd child care centres, has built 36 or less and has now gone back on his word and scraped the program.

Now I would brand Rudd as a hypocrite, a liar, a muddler and a spin doctor in the first order. Even his one time buddy Laurie Oaks has now branded him GUTLESS.


----------



## Calliope (26 April 2010)

Rudd has his spin doctors are hard at work to come up with more ways to divert the masses attention from all the s**t he has landed himself in, just in case they should become disenchanted with his never-never health plan before the election.

Ah! Perfect!  The masses become very emotive about Anzac Day. We can work on this for five years until it's 100 years old in 2015. We shall then have the greatest heart-string tugger of all times. And we will get those two old has-beens Fraser and Hawke to drive it. But everyone's input is valued.

Rudd, Hawke and Fraser couldn't give a stuff about Anzac tradition except to use it as a manipulative cynical exercise.

Sadly this applies to most politicians. You will see them fall in line. Otherwise it is a perfect wedge.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 April 2010)

noco said:


> GG, you should not have wasted your asking i-focus as he has tunnell vision and turns a blind eye to Rudd's failings.
> 
> Rudd has achieved two things:-
> * said sorry to the aboriginals.
> ...




noco mate, IFocus must be basket weaving at the Freeo markets today or finishing off the quilt of the Ruddmeister for the Lodge.

gg


----------



## sam76 (26 April 2010)

noco said:


> Rudd has achieved two things:-
> * said sorry to the aboriginals.
> * signed the Kyoto protocol..




all 'achieved' in the first couple of months in office... 

he should have quit then, lol


----------



## Julia (26 April 2010)

"Four Corners" should be interesting tonight.  It's about the government's refusal to heed warnings that people could die if the insulation installers are not properly trained, their response to those issuing the warnings apparently being that the urgency of job creation was more important.


----------



## IFocus (26 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I trust that we can assume from these musings IFocus, that you are not Tony Abbott's greatest fan.
> 
> What do you think of the Ruddmeister's achievements versus failings?
> 
> gg





Achievements would be acting aggressively ahead of the curve during the start of the GFC putting a floor under housing / securing commercial lending / securing confidence in Australian banking / maintaining cash flows in small businesses / low unemployment.

Starting down the road of real health reform, whether this gets up or not remains to be seen if it does then it will allow following governments to move it further to really be reform. 

On the political front maneuvering the Liberals over to the extreme right by playing Howard's game of wedge politics with Nelson / Turnbull (both moderates) to keep them out of power. 

Failings, 
Allowing housing to continue in bubble territory with out a plan. 
Not winding back the stimulus fast enough
As covered in the thread schools / insulation spending, wasting money is one thing house fires and deaths are unacceptable.

Not least not being serious about ending whaling unlike Liberal shadow environmental minister Greg Hunt.


----------



## IFocus (26 April 2010)

> You seem to assume I am a member of the Liberal Party or right wing and the word A-S-S-U-M-E makes an ass out of you and me.
> 
> I don't be long to any party. I have voted Labor at times and for all you know I may support the Greens, the Climate Sceptic Party, Family First or an Independant.




If you voted for any of the last 4 then I have vastly misread you.





> If you  A-S-S-U-M-E  I am right wing, then I  A-S-S-U-M-E YOU ARE A LEFT WING. Now I-Focus,  to satify my curiousity  would you be so good as to define what a left wing is and the principles of their beliefs in comparison to a right wing.




This covers it quite well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_politics




> Now Rudd goes to church on Sunday's, does a press photo shoot on the steps and doesn't tell lies!!! He lies through his teeth on the church steps.




Politics by its nature is about spin and lies the Liberals do the same hence my comment about your bias.



> I believe the terminology of a hit man is a criminal who  does assinations for money. Is that the way you portray Tony Abbott? I hope for your sake Abbott does not pick up on you tarnishing his name in this manner for you could find yourself with a defamation case on your hands.




Your comments on Rudd are not tarnishing his name? I think Tony is proud of the fact he set up a trust fund to attack One Nation and get Hanson and Ettridge jailed.



> How can you say Abboott makes policy on the run, when Rudd in negotiations with the states changed his policy, which was written on the back of an envelope, every hour within two days. He kept adding bits and pieces to sweeten the states in handing over 30% of the GST. Is that not policy on the run?




Abbott is aspiring to be PM Rudd already is, Abbott has to convince the swinging voter hes not going to extend his personal beliefs as policy like he did as a minister.  If he continues to change his position then what is he really going to do as PM.

Rudd on health was negotiating again Howard did the same when dealing with the states water being a good example. 

BTW I am not a big fan of Rudd 



> Rudd made policy on the run when he said he would revamp the Home Insulation Scheme on the 1st June, only to scrape the whole deal leaving hundreds out of work and sending some firms broke.
> 
> He promised 260 odd child care centres, has built 36 or less and has now gone back on his word and scraped the program.




Yep populists government



> Now I would brand Rudd as a hypocrite, a liar, a muddler and a spin doctor in the first order. Even his one time buddy Laurie Oaks has now branded him GUTLESS.




Isn't the net / Australia wonderful we can say these things and not get sued or shot............hang on some one is knocking on the front door


----------



## IFocus (26 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> noco mate, IFocus must be basket weaving at the Freeo markets today or finishing off the quilt of the Ruddmeister for the Lodge.
> 
> gg





Actually in Freo beating a drum with the Hare Krishna's


----------



## professor_frink (26 April 2010)

Let's try not to make this personal folks.

Anything further will be deleted and infractions issued.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 April 2010)

IFocus said:


> Achievements would be acting aggressively ahead of the curve during the start of the GFC putting a floor under housing / securing commercial lending / securing confidence in Australian banking / maintaining cash flows in small businesses / low unemployment.
> 
> Starting down the road of real health reform, whether this gets up or not remains to be seen if it does then it will allow following governments to move it further to really be reform.
> 
> ...




I don't agree with many of your views , but the failings and achievements of Rudd are well thought out and presented, and I would defend your right to express them.

Apologies for the basket weaving and quilt remarks.

gg


----------



## IFocus (26 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I don't agree with many of your views , but the failings and achievements of Rudd are well thought out and presented, and I would defend your right to express them.
> 
> Apologies for the basket weaving and quilt remarks.
> 
> gg




No need for apologies GG always enjoy your humor even at my expense.


----------



## noco (26 April 2010)

IFocus said:


> If you voted for any of the last 4 then I have vastly misread you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for that link I-Focus, but I had been there many moons ago. I was hoping for your personal interpretations of right and left wing politics without you having to research it first.

I am disappointed in the reaction of some people and the media when Abbott opens a suggestion for debate and it is then taken as Coalition policy or policy on the run!


----------



## Julia (26 April 2010)

Did anyone watch "Four Corners"?

It thoroughly dispelled the suggestion that the media, in particular the ABC, is essentially an arm of Rudd & Co.
It was factual, clearly set out with timelines, and is a devastating indictment of the government's insulation scheme.

It would seem impossible after this for taxpayer dollars not to fund an inspection of every single installation, not just foil.


----------



## Julia (26 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Apologies for the basket weaving and quilt remarks.
> 
> gg






IFocus said:


> No need for apologies GG always enjoy your humor even at my expense.



Aw, that's just so nice, fellas.  Let's keep this generosity of spirit happening.


----------



## cutz (26 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Did anyone watch "Four Corners"?
> 
> It thoroughly dispelled the suggestion that the media, in particular the ABC, is essentially an arm of Rudd & Co.
> It was factual, clearly set out with timelines, and is a devastating indictment of the government's insulation scheme.
> ...




Yep,

I agree, all homes affected require electrical inspections. Can’t believe some officials  have been so naive to think that jobs should come before safety, thought the other way round applies in Australia.

I wonder how insurance companies will handle the situation considering it now appears that some of the work was non compliant.

Also good to see the unions sink the boot in.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Aw, that's just so nice, fellas.  Let's keep this generosity of spirit happening.




Perhaps we need the best from each side of politics and get rid of the boofheads.

A Government of National Unity.

gg


----------



## drsmith (26 April 2010)

Good idea gg.

At the federal level that would result in a much smaller government and eliminate state governments alltogether.


----------



## Calliope (26 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Did anyone watch "Four Corners"?
> 
> It thoroughly dispelled the suggestion that the media, in particular the ABC, is essentially an arm of Rudd & Co.
> It was factual, clearly set out with timelines, and is a devastating indictment of the government's insulation scheme.
> ...




Anyone who watched this program tonight would have been disgusted at the treatment of the Fullers by Rudd and Garrett following the death of their son Matthew and the injuries to his girlfriend by electrocution.

As you say Julia, it was a fearless exposure and devastating indictment of the Government and especially of Rudd and Garrett for not only ignoring the warnings but denying that they were even advised. Rudd refuses to release the warnings passed on to him by Garrett by claiming they were "cabinet in confidence", which is is a lie.

If we had an independent justice system, I have no doubt that a case could be mounted  against Rudd ("the buck stops with me") for criminal negligence, if not manslaughter.

Rudd the Rat, must be brought to account, and before the usual suspects jump to his defence I suggest they watch a replay of this program.


----------



## So_Cynical (26 April 2010)

People/parents always want to blame someone when there's loss and that's understandable...just a shame that media organisations always want to exploit that, these kids died because the people/company's doing the installs were just in it for the fast money....legally its the employer that has the duty of care..isn't it?

And before you all start carrying on about training...i installed Foxtel satellite for 2 years and have been in a thousand roofs, what training or qualifications did i need to do that? none and my insurance company QBE was ok with that.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 April 2010)

Not content with electrocuting people installing insulation, it seems we're about to have another round of deaths this time installing the National Broadband Network.

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/04/26/142175_tasmania-news.html

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Government handing out $ to shonky contractors is a waste of my taxes and yours - we pay a fortune for a rotten standard of work just to meet some artificial deadline. And then we pay an army of public servants to administer all the contracts.

It would be much cheaper and more effective for a large scale, long term project like this one to simply buy machinery (excavators etc) and hire some workers to do the job properly. There may be an inefficiency or two here and there, but at least we'll end up with a proper job being done and it should be done safely. And the huge saving in administrative costs will be worth a fortune in itself.

I've never heard of this "Power and Electrical" mob by the way. Not sure who they are but it's some sort of contractor.


----------



## bunyip (26 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Perhaps we need the best from each side of politics and get rid of the boofheads.
> 
> 
> 
> gg




That might be a tall order....politicians who are not boofheads in one form or another are about as common as policewomen walking the beat in g strings.


----------



## drsmith (26 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Did anyone watch "Four Corners"?
> 
> It thoroughly dispelled the suggestion that the media, in particular the ABC, is essentially an arm of Rudd & Co.
> It was factual, clearly set out with timelines, and is a devastating indictment of the government's insulation scheme.
> ...



I would go further and ask, has the ABC declared war on the current ALP government ?

Where Peter Garrett and Kevin Rudd avoid questions towards the end of the program is especially condemming. They looked like two crooks trying to avoid questions about their shady activities. Not a good look with something as serious as this, especially on the national broadcaster.

It would be interesting to know whether either were given prior opportunity to appear formally on 4-Corners (and refused) or not ?


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> That might be a tall order....politicians who are not boofheads in one form or another are about as common as policewomen walking the beat in g strings.



Boofhead politician of the year: First prize to date.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...ith-adele-carles/story-e6frgczx-1225858415742

When he was face down on a chair sniffing stale farts, someone should have had the foresight to give him a good swift kick up the bum, all way our the door.

Instead he was made WA state treasurer.


----------



## Calliope (27 April 2010)

Whatever has happened to "our greatest moral challenge"? 

It's been deferred three years. Rudd's ideas of morality are very flexible.. The ETS is now on the "maybe sometime in the future" list along with health reform.

A big win for the sceptics.


----------



## noco (27 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Did anyone watch "Four Corners"?
> 
> It thoroughly dispelled the suggestion that the media, in particular the ABC, is essentially an arm of Rudd & Co.
> It was factual, clearly set out with timelines, and is a devastating indictment of the government's insulation scheme.
> ...




Julia, a Royal Commission is the only way to bring out the truth and frankly, i can't see that happening. The communications between Garrett and Rudd are locked away in cabinet documents which they say is confidential.

My God, if that is not a cover up I'll walk to Bouke backwards.


----------



## bunyip (27 April 2010)

drsmith said:


> Boofhead politician of the year: First prize to date.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...ith-adele-carles/story-e6frgczx-1225858415742
> 
> ...




LOL.....except that it's no laughing matter when dishonest, dishonourable, or corrupt politicians are retained by their party, and in some cases even allowed to go higher up the ladder. 

Maybe I'll start a thread titled 'Political Boofheads' where we can name and shame corrupt and dishonourable politicians.


----------



## Julia (27 April 2010)

drsmith said:


> I would go further and ask, has the ABC declared war on the current ALP government ?



Probably too much to hope for, but for once they did not spare the government in their approach.



> Where Peter Garrett and Kevin Rudd avoid questions towards the end of the program is especially condemming. They looked like two crooks trying to avoid questions about their shady activities. Not a good look with something as serious as this, especially on the national broadcaster.
> 
> It would be interesting to know whether either were given prior opportunity to appear formally on 4-Corners (and refused) or not ?



I don't know whether they were invited to appear on the programme (you'd imagine so) but they were invited to comment and declined.



Calliope said:


> Whatever has happened to "our greatest moral challenge"?
> 
> It's been deferred three years. Rudd's ideas of morality are very flexible.. The ETS is now on the "maybe sometime in the future" list along with health reform.
> 
> A big win for the sceptics.



It has been obvious for some time that this didn't have a hope of getting through the Senate.
Why was the announcement made about it this morning?  Or late last night?
Pretty damn obvious:  to divert attention from the "Four Corners" programme and its follow up where Greg Hunt has been demanding a Royal Commission.
And the media, like the obedient flunkies they are, have been dutifully going with the ETS abandonment as the lead item on every news bulletin, well the ABC anyway.


----------



## Calliope (27 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> LOL.....except that it's no laughing matter when dishonest, dishonourable, or corrupt politicians are retained by their party, and in some cases even allowed to go higher up the ladder.
> 
> Maybe I'll start a thread titled 'Political Boofheads' where we can name and shame corrupt and dishonourable politicians.




I think, bunyip. that you should put them into categories. Sure, "Boofheads" would rate high on the list. But there are also, rats, liars, cowards, cheats, grafters, blackmailers and other nasties.

Perhaps you could group them under "scum"; especially those who have gravitated to the top of the cesspool.

P.S. I see you have already started the new thread.


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## drsmith (27 April 2010)

Julia said:


> Probably too much to hope for, but for once they did not spare the government in their approach.
> 
> I don't know whether they were invited to appear on the programme (you'd imagine so) but they were invited to comment and declined.



If they were approached beforehand to appear on the program (it would be extraodrinary if otherwise), they obviously declined and the ABC took sufficient exception to that to put a mic and camera under their noses anyway.


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## cornnfedd (27 April 2010)

What ETS? What? Who? huh? Oh the working familes of Australia blah blah the ETS? wait, oh yeah ETS, no sorry election, thanks.

(possibly the best post ever on this forum)


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## trainspotter (27 April 2010)

More failure of epic proportions:- 

The Federal Government has dumped work on a US-style debates commission to come into effect in time for this year's election campaign. 

The decision came after the Press Gallery Committee refused to back a watered down version of the original proposal for the commission to oversee a minimum of three leaders' debates during an election campaign. 

The Government says it cannot meet the press gallery's demands. 

That means there are two debates between Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott remaining but no guarantee that they will take place during the official election campaign. 

The writing was on the wall after the daytime television debate between Mr Rudd and Mr Abbott last month. 

The Government counted that debate as one of the three it has promised even though an election has not even be called. 

In 2007 Labor's then national secretary Tim Gartrell called for the three debates to be held on Sundays to reach the widest possible audience, with the final debate to be held on the Sunday before polling day. 

But now in Government, Labor is demanding something very different. 

It wants "up to three debates across the election season", not the campaign, and it will not guarantee a debate on the weekend before polling day. 

It also wants only three people to sit on a debates commission instead of the recommended five. 

Liberal Party federal director Brian Loughnane says given Mr Rudd's backflips this week, it is not surprising he is trying to avoid scrutiny during the coming campaign.

"We're strongly committed to three debates and we believe that today's decision [on emissions trading] by the Prime Minister makes the need for debates even greater because he's clearly going to try to sneak through the campaign without giving details of his plans for the next three years," he said.

"It's really important that Mr Rudd does face up to the same level of scrutiny in the next campaign that he wanted in the last campaign."

Mr Loughnane says the Liberal Party is committed to three debates during an election campaign should it get back into power.


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## Calliope (28 April 2010)

I think there is now one thing we can all agree on;  

Kevin Rudd is the greatest moral challenge of our times.


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## Julia (28 April 2010)

A fairly hard-hitting, realistic assessment of Mr Rudd's backdown on climate change by Paul Kelly in "The Australian" today:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-climate-retreat/story-e6frg6zo-1225859076778

An excerpt:



> S retreats go, they come no bigger than Kevin Rudd's delaying of his once cherished emissions trading scheme - one of the most spectacular backdowns by a prime minister in decades.
> 
> If you want an equivalent, think of Gough Whitlam delaying Medibank, Paul Keating deferring the float, Bob Hawke folding on the abolition of the tariff or John Howard surrendering on his GST.
> 
> ...


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## Julia (28 April 2010)

The PM in Copenhagen on December 17 last year:


> The time has come for a grand bargain between the past and the future.  Each and every one of us here will be judged as individuals.  For what we say.  For what we do.  And for what we fail to do.
> 
> Words without deeds are a dead letter.  There have been millions of words spoken here, but as one of our colleagues said, it is time to stop talking and start working.




The PM on November 6 last year, at the Lowy Institute in Sydney:


> When you strip away all the political rhetoric, all the political excuses, there are two stark choices:  action or inaction.
> 
> We choose action, and we do so because Australia's fundamental economic and environmental interests lie in action.  Action now.  Not action delayed.
> 
> Now the Liberals and Nationals have said wait for Copenhagen and for President Obama's scheme.  What absolute political cowardice.  What an absolute failure of leadership.  What an absolute failure of logic.




What absolutely delicious irony!


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## trainspotter (28 April 2010)

Has really descended into a Pythonesque farce - reminds me of the Dead Parrot Sketch !

Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT or ETS in this case.


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## noco (28 April 2010)

Julia said:


> The PM in Copenhagen on December 17 last year:
> 
> 
> The PM on November 6 last year, at the Lowy Institute in Sydney:
> ...




Julia, can't wait for Rudd's next opinion poll rating. If he has not dropped at least 10 points, I will have lost faith in human nature to judge this megalomaniac  Prime Minister of ours.


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## moXJO (28 April 2010)

Julia said:


> The PM in Copenhagen on December 17 last year:
> 
> 
> The PM on November 6 last year, at the Lowy Institute in Sydney:
> ...




I like how they blame (what happened to stopping the blame game) the libs for shutting them down in the senate. If they were that passionate about it why not just call a Double D. 
Ohhhh because they wanted to serve a full term  
Using the excuse of having the senate shut them down is just a convenience for labor not a hindrance; otherwise they would call a DD.


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## moXJO (28 April 2010)

noco said:


> Julia, can't wait for Rudd's next opinion poll rating. If he has not dropped at least 10 points, I will have lost faith in human nature to judge this megalomaniac  Prime Minister of ours.




Libs have done nothing to prove any form of capable leadership though. I hope they have been doing a lot of work behind the scenes.


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## Mister Mark (28 April 2010)

The job of an oposition is to question government and when time is appropriate release alternative policy to present themselves as an alternative government, that time is rapidly approaching i hope. What a shame (not) to see this government the 2nd ever in Australian history to be elected out after one term.


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## Calliope (28 April 2010)

moXJO said:


> Libs have done nothing to prove any form of capable leadership though. I hope they have been doing a lot of work behind the scenes.




Yes, any future prospects the Libs have for ousting Rudd are now at the tipping point. As the biblical Saul said: 

"God has delivered him into my hands"

If Abbott can't grasp this opportunity to highlight Rudd's failures and cowardice and gain the upper hand, he will go down in history with Rudd as a failure too.

Unfortunately I don't think he has the capacity. Imagine what a Howard or a Keating could have done with all these free kicks.


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## noco (28 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Yes, any future prospects the Libs have for ousting Rudd are now at the tipping point. As the biblical Saul said:
> 
> "God has delivered him into my hands"
> 
> ...




Calliope, Abbott really does not have to do much at this stage; Rudd is shooting himself in the both feet and with holes in them he won't be able to walk on water; he will just sink to the bottom.

Timing is everything in politics and IMHO Abbott will be more agressive closer to election time. If he goes too early on his policies, electors tend to forget and will only remember the last minute spin and propaganda from Rudd. The unions have gone too early on their Work Choices scare campaign which may be forgotten come election time. If you want to be a devil, you have to think like a devil.


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## Calliope (28 April 2010)

noco said:


> Calliope, Abbott really does not have to do much at this stage; Rudd is shooting himself in the both feet and with holes in them he won't be able to walk on water; he will just sink to the bottom.
> 
> Timing is everything in politics and IMHO Abbott will be more agressive closer to election time. If he goes too early on his policies, electors tend to forget and will only remember the last minute spin and propaganda from Rudd. The unions have gone too early on their Work Choices scare campaign which may be forgotten come election time. If you want to be a devil, you have to think like a devil.




Forget policies. Abbott's policy making skills don't mount to much. What we need now is aggression...a pit bull. not a terrier yapping repetitively about big taxes. I can't think of anyone on his front bench who could pull it off. Talk about wasted opportunities.

He may prove me wrong. I hope so.


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## BrightGreenGlow (28 April 2010)

Since when was 'the apology' an achievement anyways? How did it help us? How did it help our natives find jobs or cause less trouble? Not being racist but I don't think saying sorry was an achievement, just a political vote from the natives??


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## So_Cynical (28 April 2010)

moXJO said:


> I like how they blame (what happened to stopping the blame game) the libs for shutting them down in the senate.




So even though you state the libs shut it down it in the senate, you somehow don't hold them responsible for stopping the ETS :screwy: the media is going on with a similar line..somehow its Labor's fault that the senate didn't pass the ETS
twice.

It mite take me a while but im sure somewhere i can find the 2 voting records that will clearly show all Labor senators voting for it...and pretty much everyone else voting against.


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## snowking (28 April 2010)

I'm sure you or anyone else could pull up voting records from the Senate, however that is a side issue that detracts from the real issue, which is Rudd's position reversal, or at least extreme moderation. 


Rudd's words in an interview in the last week
" The implementation of a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme in Australia will therefore be extended until after the conclusion of the current Kyoto commitment period, which finishes at the end of 2012. By the end of that period, the Governments around the world will be required to make clear their commitments for the post-2012 period. And that will provide therefore the Australian Government at that time, at the end of 2012, with a better position to assess the level of global action on climate change prior to the implementation of a CPRS in Australia. "
http://www.pm.gov.au/node/6708

Nelson's words in 2008 when Rudd was intent on implementing the policy
"There are risks for Australia if we implement an emissions trading scheme before the rest of the world signs up to a new post-2012 global agreement" 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/pyrrhic-victory/story-e6frg7ef-1111116880577

After describing it as  "the great moral and economic challenge of our time" it is interesting to note his position is now the same as then opposition leader Brendan Nelson, who he and the Labor party so openly chastised for taking that stance.


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## trainspotter (28 April 2010)

Irrespective So_Cynical Ching Fan Kluddy stated thusly - "The rest of the world is being slower to act on appropriate action on climate change. It's very plain that the correct course of action is to extend the implementation date." 

So is it the rest of the worlds fault now? YES you are right - The Libs have changed their stance since Howard who was elucidating to a CPRS that never happened. Abbott and Minchin spring to mind as the pallbearers of such wonderful news of a nothing tax that will cripple Australian industry along with the concessions to the coal industry. OOOOOOoooooooooops ! 

Like you have stated previously ... "Thats politics to change your mind" or words to this effect (because I can't be bothered trolling through the previous boards for the info)

Moral challenge ....... Pfffffffttttttttttt !


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## Calliope (28 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> It mite take me a while but im sure somewhere i can find the 2 voting records that will clearly show all Labor senators voting for it...and pretty much everyone else voting against.




You are So_Gullible.


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## So_Cynical (28 April 2010)

You guys are so desperate to spin this away from the coalition deniers to the policy back down...spin spin spin spin.

Are you guys all on a young liberals spin for the day mailing list or something?


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## Calliope (28 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> You guys are so desperate to spin this away from the coalition deniers to the policy back down...spin spin spin spin.
> 
> Are you guys all on a young liberals spin for the day mailing list or something?




The great So_Cynical is just a pussy cat. A little bit of Rudd spin and you become So_Gullible.


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## moXJO (29 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> So even though you state the libs shut it down it in the senate, you somehow don't hold them responsible for stopping the ETS :screwy: the media is going on with a similar line..somehow its Labor's fault that the senate didn't pass the ETS
> twice.
> 
> It mite take me a while but im sure somewhere i can find the 2 voting records that will clearly show all Labor senators voting for it...and pretty much everyone else voting against.





 I love how you stir us right of center voters. 
It is labors fault. If you want to go ahead and claim this is the greatest moral challenge yada yada, then they could have easily just called a double dissolution after the libs stopped any of their polices. If they still didn’t have the numbers in senate they can go to the GG (I think?) and get it through.  *So labor had options* But lets face it, Rudd was just full of it. Whatever motives he had at the time, they soon evaporated at Copenhagen  

Not sure labor was that passionate about the policy, or they would not have let it drift away so easily. Blaming the libs is a cop out after the speech Rudd gave. If it were that important he could have put the wheels in motion, instead he flaked once again. Yes libs stopped it in the senate (thank God) but labor stopped it once voters began to backlash and it threatened their popularity. Liberal in senate is labors safety net and convienent excuse when they cut bad policy. Otherwise a DD would have been called by labor. Hell labor is still blaming Howard 

Didn’t libs burn you on a business deal Cyn? And that’s the reason for the bias towards labor?


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## noco (29 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> You guys are so desperate to spin this away from the coalition deniers to the policy back down...spin spin spin spin.
> 
> Are you guys all on a young liberals spin for the day mailing list or something?




So_Cynical you getting nasty agian!

Being a father, a grandfather and a great grandfather, I can't see me taking too much notice of the young Libs. I have lived through the hard knocks era and am mature enough to come to my own conclusions relating to politics.

You must admit you've taken a few whacks around the ears from many on ASF lately and that is your perogative to express your monomania.


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## trainspotter (29 April 2010)

So this cartoon is a figment of my imagination then in regards to Phan Ngyuen Kluddy as to how the rest of Austrlalia sees our PM?


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## nioka (29 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> You guys are so desperate to spin this away from the coalition deniers to the policy back down...spin spin spin spin.
> 
> Are you guys all on a young liberals spin for the day mailing list or something?




Here here! ( also from a father,grandfather and great grandfather)and from someone that also voted for the coalalition government for more than 50 years when they WERE something to be trusted and respected.


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## Calliope (29 April 2010)

A picture is as good as a thousand words. I dedicate it to So_Cynical who doesn't seem to understand text.


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## trainspotter (29 April 2010)

Here's the list so far:

1   Said Sorry several times.

2   Ratified Kyoto as it is about to expire without  successor.

3  Organised "best and brightest  summit" - if anything useful came out of that, I missed  it.

4  Set up "fuel watch", a costly fiasco  since abandoned.

5  Set up "grocery watch"  another costly fiasco since abandoned.

6  Established  the Australian Social Inclusion Board. This rarely heard of  bureaucracy was set up because "Every Australian should have an opportunity  to be a full participant in the life of the nation. Unfortunately, too many  Australians remain locked out of the benefits of work, education, community  engagement and access to basic services. This social exclusion is a  significant barrier to sustained prosperity and restricts Australia's  future growth". If there is any evidence to support this argument it  wasn't included in the announcement. The Board has been described as "the  biggest waste of tax dollars imaginable, towards some more Rudd-style  feel-goodism". That was in May 2008. It probably did seem a big waste of tax  dollars then, but it's been turned into a drop in the ocean by what's happened  since. 

7  Set up the home insulation  program - what a disaster! It was a disaster because Rudd so  wanted the Feds to be able to claim the credit he gave it to his Dept of  Environment. This feel-good department, whose Minister's previous experience  was lead singer with a rock band, is full of environmental scientists and  climate change disciples with zero experience in dealing with the real world  or delivering real programs.  Four deaths, a minister demoted, (not  sacked or had his salary reduced) and $50 million to former union heavy Greg  Combet to fix it, and Combet says that may not be enough. And the claimed  environmental benefits were grossly exaggerated. Rudd said he took full  responsibility but I don't what that means - he's still PM, he's still drawing  his salary and privileged superannuation benefits. 

8   Set up SIHIP (Strategic Indigenous Housing and Infrastructure  Program). This program was initiated by a Memorandum of Understanding  in September 2007. In July 2009 the ABC reported on its Lateline program that it was yet to build a single house.  That was despite $45.54 million of its $672 million budget having been spent.  A government report dated August 2009 said the program was being criticised  as: too slow to deliver; its governance was overly bureaucratic; the program  is too costly in terms of unit cost of housing and administration. The revised  program budget is still $672m with each new house expected to cost $450,000 or  $529,000 after factoring in a proportion of administration costs and  "contingencies". As at 1 February 2010, 2 of a target of 750 houses and  70 of 2,500 refurbishments had been completed.

9  Sent  money direct to taxpayers and non-taxpayers to spend on large  screen imported TV's to stimulate the economy and avoid the effects of what  Rudd and Swan called the worst depression since the 1930s. In fact  unemployment was 11% in 1991 and in 2009 didn't get to 6%, which not too many  years ago would have been regarded as virtually full employment. Remember  Beattie's target 5%? But if you can't maintain your popularity rating by  sending money to voters what can you do?

10  Promised  that every child in every school in Australia would get a  computer. This program is moving so slowly that most of the people who  were high school students at the time of the promise will have left school  before they see a new computer.

11  Set up  the $70m green loans mess - people gave up their jobs,  paid $3,000 for qualifications and insurance to be trained as assessors, only  to find the demand for green loans had been grossly exaggerated, many more  assessors were trained than the program envisaged, and there was no work for  most of them. The Courier-Mail reported on 2 Feb 2010 that: "The Federal  Government predicted up to 200,000 home-owners would take up the loans and  only 1,000 have done so ....instead of training 1,500 to 2,000 well-qualified  assessors the Government permitted a blow-out and it is now estimated there  will be up to 11,500 well-qualified assessors". The program has now been  transferred to Penny Wong's department - that should fix  it. 

12  Turned a good budget surplus into such a  huge debt that our grandchildren will have so much trouble  servicing it that our population will have to increase rapidly. Blamed the  global financial collapse while steadfastly refusing to give any credit to  Howard or Costello for leaving them an excellent budget position to work  with.

13  Didn't include any major infrastructure in  the stimulus package because the effects would be felt too slowly  (except for duplicating school halls and gyms).

14  Set up  the home solar hot water initiative which was abruptly  ended three weeks early with eight hours notice. This caused chaos in the  industry, and many people intending to lodge applications missed out. Peter  Garrett blamed a cost blow-out from the original estimate of $150 million to  $750 million a year for the cut-back.

15  Disbanded  "Work Choices". He had to do this because it was the unions'  self-funded campaign against it that got him elected. Replaced it by giving  back powers to the unions and re-instating the Industrial Relations Club. Set  up Fair Work Australia with what seems to many as an over-representation of  people with union backgrounds.

16  Changed the previous  government's immigration laws so successfully that the  exponential blow-out in illegal boat arrivals created a need for a lot more  accommodation on Christmas Island.

17    Has recently suspended the processing of  applications for permanent visas until after the election. presumably hoping  there won't be a dramatic build up on Christmas Inland and that the electors  will forget about the whole situation by the next  election. 

18  Said "the science is in on climate  change" and claimed the Emissions Trading Scheme would fix  it. Labelled sceptics as  deniers.

19 Attempted to railroad the ETS through the  Senate before Copenhagen for no other reason than it would  have allowed Rudd to strut the world stage.

20 Went  to Copenhagen taking 114 government free-loaders with  him (one of the largest of the 190 delegations), at huge cost to  the Australian taxpayer and the world's environment. I haven't seen any  announcement of the cost of the junket (and I doubt I ever will), but I'm sure  that whatever was going to be achieved, at least 100 of the free-loaders were  superfluous to requirements. And it was fairly predictable that nothing would  be achieved.

21 Refuses to debate the use of nuclear  power generation to reduce pollution because it's against ALP and  union policy.

22 Has opened one of 2,650 promised  "trades training centres", one of 260 promised child care centres in schools  and TAFEs, and 2 of 31 promised GP Super  Clinics.

23 Attracted 752 retired nurses back  into the profession using a return-to-work bonus. When they  announced this scheme Labor hoped 7,750 would take up the  offer.

24 Removed Labor's original election 2007  promises from the ALP website.

25 Promised to  take Japan to court on whaling, but now says that will  not be until November, probably after the election. As time goes on, I find  I'm becoming less convinced about who is really at fault  here, Japan for fishing in international waters, or the protesters  for disrupting a legitimate commercial  operation.

26 Has so far kept the Henry tax review  secret for political reasons. Last week Rudd was saying it  wouldn't be released until after the election. Wiser heads have since made him  realise people won't vote for a new tax system when they don't know what's in  it. And there must be something nasty in it, either unpalatable to the voters  or inconsistent with ALP policy, or it would be heralded as another triumph  for the Rudd government.

27 Announced he will keep 30%  of the state's GST to fund 60% of their hospital costs. The 60%  funding will have strings attached. The states have not been given any of the  details, just the executive summary, and he expects them to agree to the  proposals without knowing what the strings are, or what he might take back  with the other hand under the Henry tax review. The announcement doesn't  explain how it will improve delivery of hospital services, but it will  probably add another layer of bureaucrats to the health  system. Australia already has 450,000 bureaucrats looking after 290,000  health professionals. The announcement was hurriedly made in March 2010 after  it had been pointed out that he had imposed a June 2009 deadline on himself  for reform of the hospitals system. Perhaps this explains the lack of details.  Refer back to the criticisms of SIHIP above. I think it'll be deja vu all over  again. Rudd said if the states block his plan he will take it to a referendum,  which of course is just grandstanding.

28. Turned Gillard  loose with $16.7 billion to give building contractors, states and  bureaucrats a feast in return for COLA.s and unwanted libraries and gyms Ë† the  insulation racket all over again in spades.

29  Last week  he trotted out five senior ministers to criticise the Senate for  being "obstructionist". The 5 were Jenny (SIHIP) Macklin, Penny (ETS)  Wong, Lindsay (clean nose) Tanner, Nicola (new hospital system) Roxon, and  Greg (Mr Fixit) Combet. I think Rudd is lucky the Senate has been  obstructionist because if it wasn't he'd have more failures to add to his  already impressive list. I noticed Julia was too smart to join the line-up of  losers, and has managed not to be associated with too many of the above  "achievements" Ë† actually lying low while the schools building fiasco and  criminal activities are unfolding. But watch your back,  Kev.


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## trainspotter (29 April 2010)

As you might have guessed, I think Rudd's a dud. But everyone's  entitled to their own opinion, and if I've missed some real achievements I  sincerely apologise.

I can't wait to hear how he will try to turn these "achievements"  into something which will encourage the Australian electors to give Labor and,  equally important, the unions another chance! 

Of equal importance will be what the Liberals put forward  to convince the electors that they will be any better.   

They will have plenty of cheap shots to fire but that is  NOT the main game from an opposition seeking to become the government.  They need to develop and put forward sound, well thought out and costed  policies to get Australia out of the mess into which Labor has dropped us.


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## moXJO (29 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> You guys are so desperate to spin this away from the coalition deniers to the policy back down...spin spin spin spin.







> Oh, so it’s all the fault of the Liberals?
> 
> I must have misunderstood the numbers in our senate.  I thought that it would take The Liberals, The Nationals, CLP, plus at least one other senator to block any legislation in the senate.  Let me check…
> 
> ...



Yes perhaps the ETS was just bad policy considering greens helped shoot it down. In reality I am happy Rudd backed away from the ETS.


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## Calliope (29 April 2010)

The greatest moral challenge of our times is to stop this megalomaniac being re-elected.

But I don't think we are up to it. Morality is not our strong suit.


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## drsmith (29 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Here's the list so far:
> 16  Changed the previous  government's immigration laws so successfully that the  exponential blow-out in illegal boat arrivals created a need for a lot more  accommodation on Christmas Island.
> 
> 17    Has recently suspended the processing of  applications for permanent visas until after the election. presumably hoping  there won't be a dramatic build up on Christmas Inland and that the electors  will forget about the whole situation by the next  election.



Don't forget the reopening of Curtin.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...of-curtin-centre/story-e6frgczf-1225855718569


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## Boggo (29 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Here's the list so far:
> 
> 15  Disbanded  "Work Choices". He had to do this because it was the unions'  self-funded campaign against it that got him elected. Replaced it by giving  back powers to the unions and re-instating the Industrial Relations Club. Set  up Fair Work Australia with what seems to many as an over-representation of  people with union backgrounds.




That is a bit of a joke in some areas too, Tiger Airlines for example are backdating recently hired pilot contracts to 31 December to avoid their obligations under the Fair Work Act, they are not the only ones apparently.


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## nioka (29 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Morality is not our strong suit.




You said it. I only thought it was not your strong one.


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## Julia (29 April 2010)

A further fail was the hysteria about swine flu including the admonition for everyone to be vaccinated.  The appropriate quantity of vaccine was purchased but the population declined to succumb to the hysteria and the vaccine sits there if not already out of date, soon will be.


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## overhang (29 April 2010)

Julia said:


> A further fail was the hysteria about swine flu including the admonition for everyone to be vaccinated.  The appropriate quantity of vaccine was purchased but the population declined to succumb to the hysteria and the vaccine sits there if not already out of date, soon will be.




What gives you that impression Julia? Last I heard only 60% of the order had been delivered to date and I haven't heard anything of these stock piles you speak of.


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## noco (29 April 2010)

trainspotter, with your long list of Rudd's failings, the monmaniacs may have been silenced.
That list was so comprehensive, nobody and I mean nobody, not even the monomaniacs can deny Rudd is a dudd and and while he has come up with hare brain ideas, his delivery has been atrocious.
I can't begin to imagine how his health reform could ever succeed after all the debacles that you have listed.


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## Julia (29 April 2010)

I remember hearing that towards the end of the swine flu episode last year on ABC Radio.  What was suggested was that because any flu varies from year to year, any unused stocks would be useless for 2010.

I've just tried to check and have discovered that there were 37,636 cases of swine flu last year.  I can find no record of how many people were vaccinated.

Here is an extract from a recent statement from Nicola Roxon:


> “We purchased 21 million doses of the vaccine, so there are absolutely sufficient for the community,” Roxon said. “It has quite a long shelf life, it can be provided throughout this flu season.”




It was quite widely reported that far fewer Australians than the government had expected actually taken up the urging to be vaccinated last year, and given what a fizzer swine flu turned out to be (in the majority of people), it's hardly likely to be different this year.

In addition, the severe adverse reaction experienced by several young children to this year's flu vaccine, including a death, will almost certainly deter more people from being vaccinated against either swine flu or seasonal flu.

Cannot find any reference to your suggestion that only part of the delivery has been received.


----------



## bunyip (29 April 2010)

Julia said:


> A further fail was the hysteria about swine flu including the admonition for everyone to be vaccinated.  The appropriate quantity of vaccine was purchased but the population declined to succumb to the hysteria and the vaccine sits there if not already out of date, soon will be.




But on the other hand, Rudd would have been widely condemned if he'd taken no precautions and swine flue had turned into the deadly pandemic that many health experts were warning about. The government can't be blamed for the fact that very few people took the opportunity to be vaccinated. Sometimes governments are damned if they do and damned if they don't.


----------



## Julia (29 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> But on the other hand, Rudd would have been widely condemned if he'd taken no precautions and swine flue had turned into the deadly pandemic that many health experts were warning about. The government can't be blamed for the fact that very few people took the opportunity to be vaccinated. Sometimes governments are damned if they do and damned if they don't.



Yes, that's quite true.


----------



## bunyip (29 April 2010)

My understanding about these diseases is that some years they can be much worse than others - although swine flu turned out to be a bit of a fizzer last winter, there's no guarantee that will be the same story this winter.
I wouldn't like to see our government become complacent on this issue. I'd much rather them be prepared for a pandemic that never eventuates, than be totally unprepared for a pandemic that does.
I'm going overseas in August and I'm damn sure I'll be having a swine flu jab before I go. Even if I wasn't going overseas I think I'd still be having it.


----------



## overhang (29 April 2010)

'The Federal Government has priority over commercial providers. This year, it ordered 4'.7 million doses of vaccine. So far, 60 per cent of the order has been delivered."
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2877743.htm  This actually suggests a shortage of flu vaccines this winter.  I'm uncertain which vaccination the government has on order as the original vaccination was only for the h1n1 but this years seasonal flu shot now includes h1n1 as well as the 2 common strains of flu.  
Also back when the government ordered the initial 21 million it was believed that 2 vaccinations would be required per person but was later deemed unnecessary from further trials.


----------



## bunyip (30 April 2010)

nioka said:


> Here here! ( also from a father,grandfather and great grandfather)and from someone that also voted for the coalalition government for more than 50 years when they WERE something to be trusted and respected.




I find it difficult to comprehend how anybody can regard Kevin Rudd as someone who can be _*'trusted and respected',*_ given his continued dishonesty, his grandiose plans on which he's mostly failed to deliver, his incredible stupidity in the illegal immigration issue, and his woeful incompetence on so many issues.

Trainspotter sums him up pretty well in Post 228.


----------



## Calliope (30 April 2010)

bunyip said:


> I find it difficult to comprehend how anybody can regard Kevin Rudd as someone who can be _*'trusted and respected',*_ given his continued dishonesty, his grandiose plans on which he's mostly failed to deliver, his incredible stupidity in the illegal immigration issue, and his woeful incompetence on so many issues.
> 
> Trainspotter sums him up pretty well in Post 228.




I would rather trust a sewer rat than the Rudd gang.


----------



## So_Cynical (30 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> I would rather trust a sewer rat than the Rudd gang.






bunyip said:


> I find it difficult to comprehend how anybody can regard Kevin Rudd as someone who can be _*'trusted and respected',*_ given his continued dishonesty, his grandiose plans on which he's mostly failed to deliver, his incredible stupidity in the illegal immigration issue, and his woeful incompetence on so many issues.
> 
> Trainspotter sums him up pretty well in Post 228.





Thought it would be a good time to check in with crikey.com.au and see how the online bookies are seeing this weeks political events and how they have impacted on the 2010 election betting odds.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/04/30/the-big-catch-up/

Looks like the Liberal spin offensive has failed dismally, Labor has had a tiny downward shift in support after the best couple of weeks the coalition have had, under the leadership of "1 vote Tony"....looks like the "greatest moral challenge of our times" spin diversion has come to nothing.
~


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2010)

Votes only count when we are having an election.


----------



## So_Cynical (30 April 2010)

drsmith said:


> Votes only count when we are having an election.




Oh com on...we are in pre election mode...have been for weeks.

Henry review on Sunday and 9 to 12 weeks for that to settle in, along with the health reform conclusion and a few other good news events, then its election time...why do you think they sat on the Henry tax review for 3 months???

Early spring election i would think, ill see if i can find any likely dates?


----------



## DVEOUS (30 April 2010)

Woeful Rudd an inept PM

·       Andrew Bolt          ·     From Herald Sun   ·       April 13, 2010 7:57PM

KEVIN Rudd spent his first two years in power smashing stuff.

Now, in this election year, he's spending up to $1 billion of your money to fix the damage.

That's right: Rudd is spending at least $1 billion to fix the havoc he's unleashed by handing out free insulation, splurging on overpriced school buildings, relaxing boat people laws, letting in an unsustainable 300,000 people a year and more.

Oh, I know. You think I'm far too hard on a Prime Minister with the air of a particularly methodical Christian dentist. But one disillusioned day you will hear from many who now work with him that how Rudd seems is bizarrely different to how he is.

I don't just mean that this publicly prissy churchgoer is privately a foul-mouthed, arrogant, paranoid and abusive control freak, but that many of his brightest ideas swiftly flop. 
The truth is his uncanny skill at spinning has so far saved Rudd's reputation as a manager.

But check the substance rather than the image and you find he already qualifies as possibly the most incompetent prime minister since World War II. And, no, I haven't forgotten Whitlam.

Take Monday's announcement that his Government will now spend another $14 million on a taskforce to tackle the massive rorting of its $16.2 billion school stimulus scheme.

This so-called "Building the Education Revolution" spendathon was always destined to be a colossal waste.

To spend so much so fast on school halls, shade-cloths and a few classrooms and libraries was to blow a fortune on fripperies that had little to do with making children smarter or more civilised.

But even I couldn't predict the scandalous rorting which followed. In NSW, for instance, builders have charged at least $800,000 a time for more than 40 covered outdoor learning areas which official state government costings say should cost just $250,000.

From Perth to Sydney, schools have complained of receiving trash for your cash - useless canteens at half the size for twice the price, libraries with no shelves or with heating that would kill if the windows were closed; single classrooms costing double what you'd pay for a package home; and fire-fighting tanks that weren't asked for.

In Victoria, even a dying school with just two children was given $150,000, and from everywhere came complaints that BER developers were charging "management fees" of up to 21 per cent.

That's all your money, folks. Blown in what some now call the Builders' Early Retirement fund.

Now the Government is spending even more of your money - $14 million - on a taskforce to stop the looting of what's left of our $16.2 billion. Or to seem to.

Why did Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard only now announce this "safeguard" when it's been clear for months that your taxes were being wasted like never before in our history?

Three reasons, all squalid. First, Channel 7 last weekend mainstreamed this scandal, running a devastating report on its Sunday Night current affairs show.

Second, it's election year, and setting up a taskforce makes it seem like you're dealing with a problem, at least for now.

And, thirdly, although Gillard refuses to admit it she has got an advance report on this BER racket from the Auditor General that is likely to be devastating, and it's a fair bet she set up her taskforce to short-circuit the criticism she'll get when it's released.

This BER rorting is the biggest waste by Rudd so far, with anything up to $8 billion thrown away. But the more graphic symbol of his incompetence - of having to spend millions to fix what he caused by spending billions - is his free insulation scheme.

Again, it didn't make sense from the start for Rudd to spend $2.5 billion of your money to install free insulation in the homes of people who thought it wasn't worth doing with their own cash.

It's even crazier now we know Rudd barged ahead even after his own department was warned in writing a year ago that rushing out these freebies could attract shysters, burn down houses and kill people.

It all happened, just as Rudd was warned, with four installers now dead, 120 homes set on fire and more than 300,000 houses fitted with potentially lethal, incomplete or near-useless junk.

TO fix the disaster and compensate the losers, the Government may now have to spend anything up to $1 billion, with the National Electrical Contractors Association estimating repairs alone could cost $450 million.

It also means taxpayers must pay millions to take out insulation that Rudd made them pay millions to put in. It couldn't get crazier.

Correction. It already has. See, Rudd meant this giveaway to "stimulate" the economy and put people in jobs.

But the day before Easter (a good time to bury bad news) his Government announced, in effect, that his insulation scheme had killed off the very industry he'd meant it to help.

The Government said it would now give insulation manufacturers $15 million to help them stockpile all the batts and foil they can no longer sell, now that Rudd's scheme has stuck the stuff in a million more ceilings.

Those stockpiles of unsaleable batts are a clear sign that these once healthy businesses have been poleaxed.

Indeed, an industry which once predicted Rudd's free insulation plan would create 4000 jobs now says its collapse has cost the jobs of 6000.

Or even 8000, says Dandenong's Fletcher Insulation, which warns that every insulation manufacturer may shut this year, at least temporarily.

That's why Rudd has spent another $41 million of your money to help retrain the people sacked from an industry he spent billions to "stimulate".

And still this lunatic incompetence doesn't end. To fix this mess before the election, Rudd has switched his entire emissions trading team on to it.

Remember them? They're the 154 public servants Rudd originally hired to work on what until this year he called "the greatest moral, economic and social challenge of our time" - the man-made global warming he told us his great new green tax on everything would help stop.

But that tax is now blocked in the Senate, and public support for it is falling like a batt out of hell, so Rudd has put "the greatest moral, economic and social challenge of our time" on the backburner, and set his $57 million-a-year team of planet-savers to work on insulation instead.

And still this comedy is not done.

Rudd last weekend froze the processing of refugee applications from Sri Lanka and Afghanistan to stop the tide of boats he unleashed by weakening our boat people laws two years ago.

Boat people were a problem John Howard had fixed, cutting arrivals to just 18 boats over six years. Rudd unfixed that problem by going soft, so he's now luring in more than 10 boats a month.

The Christmas Island detention centre is filled to bursting, and fixing this will cost hundreds of millions more of your dollars, with the 2000 people who've arrived just this year costing some $80,000 each to process.

Then there's the whole new "Department of Population" Rudd abruptly created this month to hose down the alarm he'd raised by not only letting in a record 300,000 immigrants last year, but by then happily endorsing predictions that our population will explode to 36 million by 2050.

And we still don't know how much in total we must pay for all Rudd's other failures - FuelWatch, Grocery Watch, the scrapped tender of his first broadband scheme, the lobbying for his new pan-Asian body, the botched Green Loans plan, the rorted solar hot water scheme, the "Ideas Summit" fiasco and the new nuclear disarmament body.

Still, more amazing than this waste is that Rudd retains the air of a man who knows just what he's doing, and is across every detail.

Watch him now sell his latest multi-billion-dollar plan - a health shakeup that Ken Baxter, former head of the premier's department in Victoria and NSW, warns will create a bureaucratic monster that will eat money.

But look at Rudd. See how assured and competent he seems, even as his last schemes still fall around his ears?

Amazing gift, that, and you're paying billions for it.


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Oh com on...we are in pre election mode...have been for weeks.
> 
> Henry review on Sunday and 9 to 12 weeks for that to settle in, along with the health reform conclusion and a few other good news events, then its election time...why do you think they sat on the Henry tax review for 3 months???
> 
> Early spring election i would think, ill see if i can find any likely dates?



While in front, the team you're barracking for hasn't won yet. The opposition will however need to lift it's game and quickly.

It's been a woeful performance so far from both sides.


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## So_Cynical (30 April 2010)

DVEOUS said:


> Woeful Rudd an inept PM
> 
> ·       Andrew Bolt          ·     From Herald Sun   ·       April 13, 2010 7:57PM
> 
> ...




Dude you just can do massive cut and pastes like that...please see this thread.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10373

Oh and thanks for the spin. 



Joe Blow said:


> Please do not infringe the copyright of others on ASF.
> 
> I see a lot of people reproducing whole articles and/or not posting a link to or identifying the original source of quoted material.
> 
> ...


----------



## bunyip (30 April 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Dude you just can do massive cut and pastes like that...please see this thread.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10373
> 
> Oh and thanks for the spin.




So Gullible

You can call it spin or whatever you like, but I notice you have no answer to it. Normally if someone feels they have solid grounds on which to refute something, they'll outline their reasons and then back their arguments with sound logic and solid reasoning. You have been unable to do so, preferring instead to refer to polls that show Rudd is still in favour with people like you who follow him with blind devotion despite his inept performance.

In an earlier post you claimed to be 'happy with Rudd's performance overall'. 
Maybe you'd care to elaborate - on what basis are you happy with Rudd's performance overall?

And while you're at it, please feel free to refute what Andrew Bolt says about Rudd. Make sure you back your views with sound logic and solid reasoning - if you can't do that then you'll only be confirming what many on this forum already believe - that you have no substance.


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## So_Cynical (1 May 2010)

bunyip said:


> So Gullible
> 
> You can call it spin or whatever you like, but I notice you have no answer to it. Normally if someone feels they have solid grounds on which to refute something, they'll outline their reasons and then back their arguments with sound logic and solid reasoning. You have been unable to do so, preferring instead to refer to polls that show Rudd is still in favour with people like you who follow him with blind devotion despite his inept performance.




Sound logic and solid reasoning Hey  bunyip i doubt anything i could say to you or the rest of the ASF right would be seen as sound logic and solid reasoning....i mean i couldn't even convince calliope that the Coalition defeated the ETS legislation...lol some how he doesn't think that 37 votes actually beats 32 so you can see ive no hope here.

----------------

Ok here's some Sound logic and solid reasoning for ya.....the election betting charts i keep posting point to overwhelming public support for the Rudd Labor Govt, and yet you and the ASF right keep posting pages of arguments and information and articles that point out the aleged failings and bungles of this Govt, and yet week after week and month after month the support is unwavering.

Now the betting and election projections are no illusion, there based on hard numbers and good science (lol just like the ETS was ) and so cant be argued against...there fore its safe to call the ASF right and in fact all coalition voters, a large minority...now experience and reasoning leads me to believe that when a minority feels threatened and vulnerable they can react with great venom and hostility....as we have seen here at ASF.

This hostility and delusion in the face of over whelming evidence to the contrary, logically leads me to think that the ASF right is a disillusioned fringe group that feels disenfranchised and threatened by the policy's of a progressive, reformist Labor Govt, and there ranting's here are nothing more than the ranting's of any other fringe group...and not representative of the majority.

Therefore are irrelevant...hows that for Sound logic and solid reasoning.


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## bunyip (1 May 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Sound logic and solid reasoning Hey  bunyip i doubt anything i could say to you or the rest of the ASF right would be seen as sound logic and solid reasoning....i mean i couldn't even convince calliope that the Coalition defeated the ETS legislation...lol some how he doesn't think that 37 votes actually beats 32 so you can see ive no hope here.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> ...




As usual you exhibit the classic signs of someone who can't compete in an argument. So you attempt to discredit those who put forward the argument, rather than refuting the argument itself by presenting solid counter-arguments. 
The polls show nothing more than how gullible the voting public are. It's highly unlikely that any government will be voted out after just one term, no matter how bad they are. The average voter tends to be pretty slow on the uptake - it takes him much longer to open his eyes and accept that his heroes are not up to the job. 

This thread is about Rudd's failings vs his achievements. Trainspotter, Andrew Bolt and others have presented a long list of Rudd's failings. You call it spin because you know it's true and you're unable to refute it.
If the Rudd government is really as good as you think, then their list of achievements will completely outnumber and overshadow their failings.
That list of Rudd failings from people like Trainspotter, Andrew Bolt and others, should pale into insignificance beside the list of impressive Rudd achievements that you and his supporters can put up. 
So let's see something of substance from you - how about you list all of Rudd's achievements and see how they stack up against his list of failings. It's that sort of information, rather than polls, that will give a more accurate picture of how good or bad this government is.


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## gooner (1 May 2010)

Looks as though price of Penfolds Grange will go down by $100 a bottle but cheaper wine will more than double in price.

OK for Rudd the millionaire, but hard on the rest of us

http://www.smh.com.au/national/its-shaping-up-to-be-a-great-year-for-grange-20100430-tzaj.html


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## trainspotter (1 May 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Sound logic and solid reasoning Hey  bunyip i doubt anything i could say to you or the rest of the ASF right would be seen as sound logic and solid reasoning....i mean i couldn't even convince calliope that the Coalition defeated the ETS legislation...lol some how he doesn't think that 37 votes actually beats 32 so you can see ive no hope here.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> ...




Election betting charts are your platform? Who left the keys out for the liquor cabinet? You keep changing your position once cornered, a very Labor thing to do I notice. You reckon that the media are "alleging" Chung Phat Kluddy has made these failings and bungles ?? WTF ........ no seriously ... WTF?? These are cold hard facts of reality So_Cynical, not allegations, not a ranting fringe attack, no lunatics on the grass stuff. The truth is out there So_Cynical for all to see. The underbelly of this Government has been exposed to the public and quite frankly it has come up lacking in intestinal fortitude (no double disillusionment on ETS) and it has no backbone (backflip on child care & pink batts) ...... these are just a few examples of the failings of this Government. I have posted a very good list of the failings, waiting for you to respond to the achievements.

Me thinks you are merely trolling now as your vecture has changed from being slightly sublime in it's clarity to bordering on the ridiculous. Nay, I have changed my mind, you have lost the plot. Learn to admit defeat gracioulsy in the eyes of overwhelming odds. You are wrong. Pure and simple. 

The diatriabe that you throw up is banal and the inane and repetitive comments are not helping your cause. I respect your right to an opinion. Please bear in mind my right to criticise your right. 

So what if they are winning in the polls ... does this make what they are doing is good for the country? Good for the people? Sadly you would say yes to these questions because you are blinded by PM Kevin Rudd and his doctorate of spin.

Achievement - Able to brainwash apparently smart people into arguing split definitives with nonsense that is actually trolling. It's a sad, sad day when this happens.


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## IFocus (1 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> While in front, the team you're barracking for hasn't won yet. The opposition will however need to lift it's game and quickly.
> 
> It's been a woeful performance so far from both sides.




The opposition is the reason Labor are going so well in the betting. The real issue with Liberals is the fact there is so much dead wood still hanging around from Howard's cabinet Abbott being number one. 

They bring all that baggage along with them that loss the Liberals the last election.

When you have some one putting themselves up for PM who cannot even keep their composure in public when dealing with Gillard of all people well you are not fit for the office.

Abbott has done the Liberals good service to pick up the polls but Australians wont cop him as PM.

Looking along the front bench and its bare of any potential but some from the Liberals have hope for Scott Morrison still he is a few years experience away. 

Labor had the same problem after Keating i.e. Crean and Kim Beasley.

Until the power base moves from the current Howard clique its opposition for the Liberals I think no matter what Labor gets up to.


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## trainspotter (1 May 2010)

Liberal achievement ... allowing the Labor Party to get ahead in the polls by being inept as an opposition and failing to point score with the voting public when there is so much chum in the water


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## Julia (1 May 2010)

IFocus said:


> The opposition is the reason Labor are going so well in the betting. The real issue with Liberals is the fact there is so much dead wood still hanging around from Howard's cabinet Abbott being number one.
> 
> They bring all that baggage along with them that loss the Liberals the last election.
> 
> ...



I agree, IFocus, including the potential for Scott Morrison who is probably the Libs' best performer at present.

Bunyip, the figures So Cynical is putting up are not polls at all, just betting odds.  The actual polls are far closer.


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## bellenuit (1 May 2010)

Can someone explain how the DD works please.....

I was reading an article in The Australian today and the writer was on about what a gutless politician Rudd is. He mentioned that if Rudd really wanted to get his ETS, he could have called for a DD and put it to "a joint sitting of parliament" where Labor are in the majority. I am going from memory, but I think that was the way it was put.

So a DD just doesn't involve dissolution of both houses and an election called for both, but also allows both house to vote on the bill together? Is that the only circumstances that a joint sitting is allowed under? 

I had assumed up to now that all the DD did was allow a new election of both houses and they would have to still get a majority vote in the new senate to get their bill passed.


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## Julia (1 May 2010)

Explanation here, bellenuit:
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...ad_binary/pbp961.pdf;fileType=application/pdf

And this from Antony Green, election analyst:



> The mechanics of the constitution on early elections are clear in broad outline. The House of Representatives has variable terms, the Senate fixed staggered terms. Where the two chambers are in conflict, Section 57 of the Constitution is a deadlock resolution provision allowing for a double dissolution of both the House and the full Senate.
> 
> The current House was elected on 24 November 2007. Its term is for three years timed from its first sitting after the election, 12 February 2008. So if the government does not call an earlier election, the House of Representatives will expire through the effluxion of time on 11 February 2011. Under the timetable for elections set out in the Constitution and the Electoral Act, the last possible date for a House election is 16 April 2011.
> 
> ...


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## bellenuit (2 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Explanation here, bellenuit:
> http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...ad_binary/pbp961.pdf;fileType=application/pdf
> 
> And this from Antony Green, election analyst:




Thanks Julia.


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## Bigukraine (2 May 2010)

So cigs up by ave $2 a packet to try and stem the flow of current smokers and new one's..... plus a advert block on branding cigs and more picture's of toes falling off...........BUT..... approx $5bill over 4 years in extra rev from the smokers for tax for hospitals...... so are the admitting defeat on stopping people to smoke and take the rev anyway..... basically admitting over 4 years nothing will change but will make sure funds spent on health + tax increase on mining royalaties , how much more (labour or liberal) of this BS can the ave aussie take!!!!!  ps i don't smoke


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## So_Cynical (2 May 2010)

Julia said:


> the figures So Cynical is putting up are not polls at all, just betting odds.  The actual polls are far closer.




Betting odds are based around the polls...Julia we have 2 party preferred voting, so the green % in your picture, count as Labor % and prob 3 of the 7 "other" %...so works out to 56% Labor V 44% Coalition...and that's a political massacre, that's what the betting odds reflect.


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## noco (2 May 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Betting odds are based around the polls...Julia we have 2 party preferred voting, so the green % in your picture, count as Labor % and prob 3 of the 7 "other" %...so works out to 56% Labor V 44% Coalition...and that's a political massacre, that's what the betting odds reflect.




So_Cynical, after a disasterous 2 weeks for Rudd, the next poll may be very different.
So don't count your chickens before they are hatched!


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## sam76 (2 May 2010)

Failing:  Listening to Henry re: Tax reform.


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## bunyip (4 May 2010)

I see on the news tonight that Rudd's personal approval rating has taken a dive, and the opposition are now ahead of Labor in the polls.
Looks like people are starting to wake up and open their eyes to this government.


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## Julia (4 May 2010)

Here are the actual poll results:
http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_up... Leaders Ratings + Personalities + Issues.pdf


Primary Vote is Labor 35    Coalition  43

Two Party Preferred is   Labor  49     Coalition  51

Rudd satisfaction rating is down from 50 to 39!

That's all pretty different from So Cynical's betting odds.


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## trainspotter (4 May 2010)

noco said:


> So_Cynical, after a disasterous 2 weeks for Rudd, the next poll may be very different.
> So don't count your chickens before they are hatched!




You are a true genius noco ........ true genius !


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## trainspotter (4 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Here are the actual poll results:
> http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_up... Leaders Ratings + Personalities + Issues.pdf
> 
> 
> ...




It seems to be quite different to So_Cynicals betting odds now doesn't it?

I was watching Nick Minchin the other night on TV and he claims that it is not possible fo the Libs to block anything in the senate as they do not have the majority? Apparently the Greens offered Labor a deal which was rejected to get the ETS through?? Hmmmmmmmmmm the plot thickens !


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## Julia (4 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> I was watching Nick Minchin the other night on TV and he claims that it is not possible fo the Libs to block anything in the senate as they do not have the majority? Apparently the Greens offered Labor a deal which was rejected to get the ETS through?? Hmmmmmmmmmm the plot thickens !



When they have blocked legislation to date it has been with the votes of the crossbenches, i.e. Xenophon, Fielding et al.

And yes, as I understand it, the Greens did offer Labor a deal on the ETS, based on an interim carbon price.  I don't think Rudd or Wong even bothered to have a discussion with Bob Brown on this.

By the time the Greens came up with their offer, I think Rudd & Wong had woken up to the loss of interest in the electorate in climate change.


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## todster (4 May 2010)

achievement solved skilled labour shortage in one day


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## trainspotter (4 May 2010)

Julia said:


> When they have blocked legislation to date it has been with the votes of the crossbenches, i.e. Xenophon, Fielding et al.
> 
> And yes, as I understand it, the Greens did offer Labor a deal on the ETS, based on an interim carbon price.  I don't think Rudd or Wong even bothered to have a discussion with Bob Brown on this.
> 
> By the time the Greens came up with their offer, I think Rudd & Wong had woken up to the loss of interest in the electorate in climate change.




You mean Rudd was Wong on his climate change policy through the senate? (sic joke)


----------



## Calliope (5 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> You mean Rudd was Wong on his climate change policy through the senate? (sic joke)




Wudd went Rong?


----------



## noco (6 May 2010)

One can't help being amused at the Auditor Generals enquiry into the BER rorting. How weak!!!!!

We need a Royal commission into this venture as well.


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## trainspotter (6 May 2010)

*"Miss me yet? By the way ...... how is that change thingy going for you now?"*


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## Calliope (6 May 2010)

Ha! Who set the terms of reference? Never set up an enquiry, unless you know the outcome.

The report said "An examination of individual BER projects was outside the scope of the audit"

Fail :shake:


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## bunyip (6 May 2010)

That intrepid defender of all things Labor, So Cynical, seems to have gone quiet since Rudd fell behind in the polls, and announced his intention to target miners in what amounts to a desperation tax grab.

So Cynical, where are you son, are you still with us?
Your thoughts please lad, on the latest opinion polls? And while you're at it we'd be interested in hearing your take on Rudd's audacious plan to slug  miners to pay for his wild and imprudent spending spree and numerous money-wasting escapades!


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## Calliope (6 May 2010)

> Those who are feeling the crunch are outraged that they have to pay for what they see as politicians' mismanagement of their country's economy.




That's Greece of course. But does it ring a bell?:1zhelp:


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## todster (6 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> *"Miss me yet? By the way ...... how is that change thingy going for you now?"*




I'm earning more now than when he steering the ship and paying less tax
Not much seems to be directly affecting my little world
Have a beer and relax a bit
Theres about 10 people who just rehash the same old lines
Get over yourselves your not that important


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## pween (7 May 2010)

I wish I was smart enough to say this as I think it summs up RUDD perfectly



Michael Kroger writes on - and writes off - Kevin Rudd:

    Like life itself, one day Kevin Rudd’s Prime Ministership will come to an end. Calls to Cate Blanchett to check on the progress of baby Iggy will be met with the butler telling him “Ms Blanchett is busy, could you possibly ring back on another occasion”. He will then realise that celebrities have a thousand fans but John Button only one funeral. As a former Prime Minister once said “remember that it is not about you, it is only about the position you hold”.

    Like a boy in a lolly shop with a stack of blank cheques, Kevin Rudd is a man hopelessly out of his depth.  Easily the worst Prime Minister in living memory. 

    Nowadays he hardly ever refers to former Prime Ministers Hawke, Keating or Howard by name, thinking of them as irrelevant to Australia.  He views them more as reluctant but necessary local administrators of a scorched earth nation in post-Mad Max environment.  A wasteland where the main role of the three former PMs was to preserve as much petrol as they could and keep the fledgling scrap metal compounds in place until someone could rescue the survivors.

    How else should we account for everything that Rudd does as having to be ‘big’, ‘landmark’, ‘historic’, ‘root and branch’, ‘the first time’ and so on?  It is as if Hawke, Keating and Howard did absolutely nothing as Prime Ministers.  Don’t worry about Gough he will just be delighted that after the passing of more then 30 years Australia has produced a Prime Minister worse than him.

    It is Rudd and his fellow blow-in Penny Wong that had to save us from the great moral issue of our time.  Vital to our nation’s future the CPRS bill had to be passed by 3pm on some Friday back in October or November, not a minute later.  What an embarrassment to them this high-pressure hoax became. Surprisingly the world did not end in 2009 after all.

    Rudd also needed to save the nation from a looming recession by plundering our national savings and putting us into debt for years.  But, of course, a man with no experience in running a business of any size at all would panic and overreact to the crisis because he failed to take notice of or give credit to John Howard or Peter Costello for having Australia in a position where we entered the GFC in a much better state than any other Western nation.  This is because in his mind there really was no economic management before Rudd. His election was year 0.  Charging into the GFC with all of the incompetence and inexperience of a financial markets wood-duck, Rudd spent billions of taxpayer’s money on hair brain schemes that have made Australia a laughing stock internationally. 

    Have you noticed how Rudd never now attends all of those international forums you couldn’t keep him away from in his first year as PM?  The gain for international leaders is the loss to Australia’s hospitalised who have to endure Kevin Rudd exploiting their illness for cheap photo opportunities. The second last thing Australians deserve or need is such an incompetent Prime Minister trying to run the hospital system.

    The “Building the Education Revolution” has also been a farce and an embarrassment to both Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard.  With Peter Garrett, these three ministers are lucky they are not company directors otherwise they would be prosecuted by ASIC, cross examined by liquidators and sued by shareholders.  It is a pity that some years ago our business leaders did not demand of our politicians that any corporate governance rules applying to them would be willingly accepted if the politicians imposing them agreed to be bound by the same rules.

    Some weeks ago, the Prime Minister was passionately in favour of “a big Australia”. You know that when a process driven politician like Rudd declares himself passionately in favour of something, it means he has only just discovered the idea, this is especially true in his case given that this passionate belief like most of his ideas, only lasted a few weeks until he realised his passionate belief was not shared by the voters.

    If you add closure of the insulation scheme, the failure of Grocery Choice and Fuel Watch to the debacle over the Green Loans scheme, his border protection policies and the now failed child care centre scheme, you are right to conclude that Kevin Rudd’s hide is much thicker than that of any politician we have ever known in this country.

    Having been responsible for some of the greatest policy failings this country has ever seen, he would be forgiven for being so humiliated that together with Gillard and Garrett, they never showed their faces in public again.

    Agree with him or not on the policies, the only runs Rudd could say he has scored are the two apologies and the signing of Kyoto which only saw him capitalise on the work done over many years by others. Just like a footballer whose only game for the year is the winning Grand Final in which he was selected due to other player injuries.

    With such a record of failure and incompetencies, he should not claim credit for any success in relation to his policies pertaining to the GFC which were by good luck rather than good management.  He inherited the best economy in the Western world, spent too much money and working families now have six interest rate rises as a result of it. 

    Kevin Rudd has now announced a disastrous new tax regime which will seriously damage the mining industry.  The last thing Australians need is Kevin Rudd trying to overhaul the tax system.  Another fiasco looms. What Kevin Rudd needs is less power, less money, less influence and fewer Cabinet Ministers prepared to go along with this circus.  Anyone with a nodding acquaintance of politics in this country knows that Colin Barnett and John Brumby were right.  Why give any more power to a man whose Prime Ministerial record is bad beyond belief and whose period in office will be ridiculed by history?

    Kevin Rudd now leads a Government in crisis.  His capacity to deliver anything successfully must be severely shattered.  He is a man without friends in the Labor Party.  He is a loner.  Not only without friends, but with a huge number of enemies inside his own Party.  Why would the electorate keep liking a man so intensely disliked by those that know him best.


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## Julia (7 May 2010)

From the above comment by Michael Kroger:



> Have you noticed how Rudd never now attends all of those international forums you couldn’t keep him away from in his first year as PM? The gain for international leaders is the loss to Australia’s hospitalised who have to endure Kevin Rudd exploiting their illness for cheap photo opportunities.



That's quite true.  In the beginning he was never here.  Now he's seemingly a bit too embarrassed to strut the world stage as he did last year.

But to be fair, Michael Kroger is hardly a dispassionate observer.


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## pixel (9 May 2010)

from http://rettmer.com.au/TrinityHome/Trinity/Musings.htm

*The Prime Minister And The Guru*
An ancient fable​Once upon a time, in a land far, far away (on the edge of a wide and deep tranquil Ocean, actually), there lived a Prime Minister, governing his people. (They didn't like Kings very much, and Queens they had far too many in a City around The Cross. Nobody took them serious.)

There was not much to govern either, because the Gods of the Land had blessed the people with intellect, the land with riches for the picking --- and digging and shipping and flogging --- and the sky with sunshine, so everybody lived happily ever before.

And the Prime Minister, who had a way with words and a mellifluous organ to boot, claimed credit for providing people with intellect and the land with riches, and his court criers published the myth that the sun shone from before him and behind.

And the people couldn't care less because they lived happily ever before - but I mentioned that already.

However, governing is a costly business, especially when one has to rely on consultants and advisors and lobbyists and wise men in huge numbers to tell one, how best to spin the facts into woollen caps that people may wear over their eyes.

So it came to pass that the Prime Minister found the coffers empty, but the consultants and wise men and soothsayers demanded their pay. "Not a problem," he said. "We simply divert the cashflow from all the riches that get dug and shipped and flogged through our coffers, and share only that what may overflow, spreading it as gifts across all the people. Because it seemeth not meet that the loot should benefit only those that do all the digging and shipping and flogging. The people that do nothing of the sort will agree that it should be shared - and there is a great multitude of them that carrieth me through the next election."

And so it was decreed. --- except ...

A number of people stayed awake and did not like the idea. They were mainly those that had initially organised what to dig, where to ship, and negotiated all the flogging and fleecing and cashflow. They also refused to wear the woollen caps over their eyes. They foresaw a future with empty coffers and without any overflow at all. And they likethed it not one bit.

And so it came to pass that word got out on the streets "The Prime Minister is no longer as Beloved as he used to be." And there was great Hue and Cry among the cohorts of sycophants, hangers-on, lipopygian chairwarmers, and wise men. They afeared that their cashflow might dwindle away with the Prime Minister's chances of retaining Office.

And the Prime Minister's consultants consulted their tea leaves, and "Lo and Behold" they cried. "Our beloved Prime Minister is not sufficiently beloved any more. Let us send him to consult a real Guru who knows what to do to remain beloved."

And so it came to pass that the Prime Minister saddled his flying chariot, filled it with magic juices and food and drink to carry him and his retinue to the Land where the Guru liveth. And his retinue were many, and the fair maidens serving the food and drinks were shapely and well-instructed in the tastes of their beloved Prime Minister - lest he hit them with a tantrum.

And into the cave of the Guru he went, leaving his retinue well behind. And he spake in his mellifluous voice and said "O Guru, tell me what I have to do to be beloved again, at least until the next election."

And the Guru sat there and said nothing.

So he repeated his request in Mandarin.

And still the Guru sat and said nothing.

At last, the Guru's manservant appeared out of the dark and told the Prime Minister "Yon Guru speaketh not Mandarin." Upon which the Prime Minister demanded "Well then, tell him Who I Am and translate!"

"Oh, the Guru understandeth what you said the first time, but you omitted the password. I am sure your mother taught you basic enough manners."

And the Prime Minister swallowed his pride and several words that initially appeared on his tongue, and uttered the ancient word of magic ritual: "PLEASE".

And lo and behold, the Guru immediately spake and spake thusly: "If you want to be beloved by your people, you must display one character trait in everything you say and and let your flunkies say about you."

"Well, what is this magic trait then?" asked the Prime Minister, and after an awkward moment of silence, remembered to add the password "PLEASE".

"That trait is sincerity" replied the Guru. "Go forth and practice sincerity till you have it down pat. Once you manage to convincingly fake that, you've got it made."


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## trainspotter (9 May 2010)

todster said:


> I'm earning more now than when he steering the ship and paying less tax
> Not much seems to be directly affecting my little world
> Have a beer and relax a bit
> Theres about 10 people who just rehash the same old lines
> Get over yourselves your not that important




You should be down on bended knee thanking your lucky stars that due to JH & CO who left the country in the economic state of financial bliss that Rudd inherited to get us through the GFC. As for us 10, we do but try to educate the great unwashed masses into a crystaline point of clarity but alas I feel we are failing. Get over yourself indeed.


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## Logique (10 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> *"Miss me yet? By the way ...... how is that change thingy going for you now?"*



Nice post.  It may be beginning to dawn upon the Liberals just how idiotic they were not to give Peter Costello the last 18 months - 2yrs of the term as Leader/PM - to show if he was electable for the next term. Instead we get this lefty bureaucrat and a communist spin-doctor as deputy.

As we watch the hard-won national surplus frittered away, along with our national prosperity, and as national debt rises, what wouldn't we give to have Costello back as PM or Treasurer.

This morning we see in the media a poll saying it's Labor-50% / Coalition-50%, so there is hope yet.


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## todster (10 May 2010)

Logique said:


> Nice post.  It may be beginning to dawn upon the Liberals just how idiotic they were not to give Peter Costello the last 18 months - 2yrs of the term as Leader/PM - to show if he was electable for the next term. Instead we get this lefty bureaucrat and a communist spin-doctor as deputy.
> 
> As we watch the hard-won national surplus frittered away, along with our national prosperity, and as national debt rises, what wouldn't we give to have Costello back as PM or Treasurer.
> 
> This morning we see in the media a poll saying it's Labor-50% / Coalition-50%, so there is hope yet.




mmmmmm nice post can you run me through the hard-won bit


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## noco (10 May 2010)

noco said:


> So_Cynical, after a disasterous 2 weeks for Rudd, the next poll may be very different.
> So don't count your chickens before they are hatched!




Must have been a bit pyschic So_Cynical. The last couple of polls reveals it all. People have finally woken up to this DUDD Primeminister of ours.


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## bluecheese101 (10 May 2010)

Disastrous Rudd Policies:
*ETS *– Fair enough it can’t get through the Senate. But don’t dump it, just 
shelve it.
*Home insulation* – Cowboys shouldn’t have been allowed to take up the work, only licensed insulators in the first place.
*Boat People *– Do you have any idea have overcrowded Christmas Island is? Start sending thse people back.
*Grocery watch* – Its purely a information tool and cannot physically lower prices. 
*Fuel watch *–Again, another information tool
*Internet filter* – I’m more offended by the idea then by the content.
Aboriginal Housing Northern Territory – How could anyone stuff this up?
*Computers for every child in every school –* Cringe factor
*Broadband roll-out –* Why not nation-wide wireless?

Rudd has been a total disappointment, but keep in mind it doesn't come down to one person but a whole team. In fact, probably several hundred people when you include Ministers, minister's departments, other MPs, strategists, lawyers. His back flip on policies is just incredible. I can't understand it - if you don't think you can fulfill your policies, then don't make them in the first place. Is that unfair to say? I hate Swan more then Rudd; he reeks of incompetence. Bring back Costello any day.

However having said all of this, Tony Abbott does scare me. I'm yet to see any voting-potential from him ether.


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## trainspotter (10 May 2010)

Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more ... Will be interesting to see what the polls do after the BUDGET !


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## Julia (10 May 2010)

The Opposition are alleging that Swan's budget will contain some very creative accounting, e.g. the mining supertax will be included, even though discussions continue on this, and it may not even get through the Senate.

And wasn't there something a few days ago about the cost of the NBN not being included due to some similarly creative move?

I hope the Opposition gets some forensic accountants to go through Swan's budget with great care.


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## bluecheese101 (10 May 2010)

Julia said:


> The Opposition are alleging that Swan's budget will contain some very creative accounting, e.g. the mining supertax will be included, even though discussions continue on this, and it may not even get through the Senate.
> 
> And wasn't there something a few days ago about the cost of the NBN not being included due to some similarly creative move?
> 
> I hope the Opposition gets some forensic accountants to go through Swan's budget with great care.




Agreed. Keep a ear open for the words "Working Families" and "Temporary Deficit". What I would give to see Malcolm Turnbull as PM...


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## sam76 (10 May 2010)

http://www.ruddthedud.com/


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## bluecheese101 (10 May 2010)

sam76 said:


> http://www.ruddthedud.com/




No doubt good for a laugh. However attack the policies and not the man.


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## Whiskers (10 May 2010)

Re the concern about our National Debt: It's not the end of the world for Aus.

Of course the debt and how it's spent are two different issues.

I'm not sure what year this chart relates too, but for those not too versed in the economy of the world, the general picture is that Aus has very low debt compared to a lot of the world especially our mineral competitors in South America and Africa and Canada.

Also our main customer, China, is relatively well positioned.


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## trainspotter (10 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Re the concern about our National Debt: It's not the end of the world for Aus.
> 
> Of course the debt and how it's spent are two different issues.
> 
> ...




Must have been prior to the Rudd spendathon.


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## Whiskers (10 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Must have been prior to the Rudd spendathon.




Maybe, but a very quick search reveals our debt was estimated at 14.7% in 2008 and 18.6% 2009. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html

Still very low by international standards.

A more comprehensive and detailed list here. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html

Since I'm spoon feeding someone who is quick on critique and slow on research... :
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1496/PDF/01_Debt.pdf

and given we have a lobor gov which historically tends to increase spending on social welfare reforms as opposed to a Lib gov which tends to cut back spending and social welfare, we are still in reasonable condition.


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## trainspotter (10 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Since I'm spoon feeding someone who is quick on critique and slow on research... :
> http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1496/PDF/01_Debt.pdf




About time you did your job for a change instead of me carrying you everywhere!


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## Julia (10 May 2010)

Whiskers, your persistent attempts to paint the government in golden light are becoming just a tad over the top.

I don't think too many of us would particularly mind the level of debt if it had been incurred to fund something useful.  Instead, it has been thrown around on stupid cash handouts, then schemes that a child would have known were vulnerable to extreme rorting.  And it continues.  Schools continue to line the pockets of the big construction companies which are being paid roughly twice what they should for very simple buildings.

Now they have picked a fight with our most productive sector.  How bloody stupid.  Why not engage in constructive consultation?

It's their arrogant attitude which is so irritating on top of their sheer incompetence that is clearly waking people up to reality, as shown in the last two polls.


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## Whiskers (10 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Whiskers, your persistent attempts to paint the government in golden light are becoming just a tad over the top.
> 
> I don't think too many of us would particularly mind the level of debt if it had been incurred to fund something useful.  Instead, it has been thrown around on stupid cash handouts, then schemes that a child would have known were vulnerable to extreme rorting.  And it continues.  Schools continue to line the pockets of the big construction companies which are being paid roughly twice what they should for very simple buildings.




Nah, I'm not setting out to paint anyone, the gov or opposition, in any light or side with anyone, just getting to the facts and reality in a legal and economic like manner as opposed to some crying foul or wolf at every turn a la the introduction of the GST, saying 'Sorry' and many other dynamic changes or media beat-ups.

As I have said before I tend to be more pragmatic than critical. I'm just trying to get to the facts to be in a better position to gain from any change than those who seem intent on just making a lot of noise.

Re noise... 

Just a quick comment re the recent Auditor general report into that school spending... as I recall he found about 5% (not sure if it was projects or cash) was not wisely spent. 

While it was concerned at some of the examples the media highlighted, it seems even they have not been able to demonstrate that percentage is far wrong. 

Similarly with the insulation scheme, I've previously said I'm not impressed that so much gov money reportedly had to be spent to rectify the bodgy installations... but it since seems that the gov has held back a lot of payments to installers until their claims have been checked.

*Re the insulation scheme*, hands up all that didn't do their own research and helped perpetuate the scheme by applying for something for nothing. Not me!

I knew the insulation rebate was not only not effective insulation but a waste of money, hence the reason why I didn't even contemplate applying.

Of course the deaths issue, as unpalatable as it may be to some, always rested on the employers under long established workplace laws... as has been indicated with the first of the criminal charges against employers as I recall under the Electricity Safety Act.



> Now they have picked a fight with our most productive sector.  How bloody stupid.  Why not engage in constructive consultation?




A bit dramatic isn't it. A conflict of interest certainly, but hardly a fight with our most productive sector, more a fight with some conglomerates that in the gov's view, are taking too much cash offshore. There is a difference which one has to seperate before shooting innocent victims in the crossfire.



> It's their arrogant attitude which is so irritating




Agree. I have said that previously. 



> on top of their sheer incompetence




Agreed not the most competant, but I think you are tending to over react a bit there.



> that is clearly waking people up to reality, as shown in the last two polls.




I suspect I was one of the first to point this out, but, one poll doesn't make an election win.

Also, I don't like or trust politicans per-se... hence *my pragmatic approach to find the facts, and annoyance at scaremongers who are either politically biased or just like to cry wolf for the hell of it, or some who just get hysterical (behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion) when expressing themselves. *


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## moXJO (11 May 2010)

Whiskers your chart only goes to 2008
Also our personal debt is more of a worry


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## moXJO (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Just a quick comment re the recent Auditor general report into that school spending... as I recall he found about 5% (not sure if it was projects or cash) was not wisely spent.




Don't think he was checking vaule for money either Not sure if that 5% is right.



> And it noted that it was unable to address widespread complaints about value for money in individual projects because of its limited terms of reference.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/schools-watch/ber-auditor-finds-some-progress-on-jobs/story-fn56ulhe-1225862452369


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Nah, I'm not setting out to paint anyone, the gov or opposition, in any light or side with anyone, just getting to the facts and reality in a legal and economic like manner as opposed to some crying foul or wolf at every turn a la the introduction of the GST, saying 'Sorry' and many other dynamic changes or media beat-ups.
> 
> As I have said before I tend to be more pragmatic than critical. I'm just trying to get to the facts to be in a better position to gain from any change than those who seem intent on just making a lot of noise.
> 
> ...




In a legal and economic manner? WTF .... you a lawyer now? Nowhere have I seen the "a la" GST as being cried foul? Wait .... there was one comment about a month or so ago but it did not blip the radar. Saying SORRY is a dynamic change ?? WTF ... no seriously .... WTF??

The auditor general was hamstrung from the get go Whiskers. 16.2 billion was spent on the BER of our money and a 5% wastage is acceptable to you? So therefore $810,000,000 is acceptable as a waste proportion according to your figures?? WTF ??? This money could have gone to HOSPITALS, DOCTORS and POLICE for crying out loud !!!!!!!!! What the hell is wrong with you??

What about the insulation scheme? 2.5 billion spent there and a 5% wastage is another $125,000,000 WASTED ! GIVE THE MONEY TO HEALTH ! GEEEEEEEEEZZZZUUUUUUUZZZ .... and  you wonder why we get upset? BUT WAIT ........ billions more to be spent to fix and clean the stuff !!!!! Ya got to be kidding me Whiskers. 

We are business people that cannot tolerate waste because it comes off our bottom line _*ie*_ PROFIT !! We cannot tolerate incompetent staff because they cost us money through lost productivity. We cannot have an incompetent and spendaholic government that is sending us towards a debt that is going to be hard to handle. What part of this do you fail to understand???

As for giving us a definition of "hysterical" - are you an English teacher now?

It appears your version of pragmatism is as bent as mine.


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Whiskers also wrote _"Of course the deaths issue, as unpalatable as it may be to some, always rested on the employers under long established workplace laws... as has been indicated with the first of the criminal charges against employers as I recall under the Electricity Safety Act."_

Is this a legal matter you are attempting to highlight? The report to the Goverment from the experts was presented to Peter Garrett who chose not to read it for a 10 month period before the excreta hit the spinning blades. They clearly outlined this would happen (the deaths that is, which is according to you "unpalatable to some") It should not have happened .... period. 

So if it was the installers fault why did PM Rudd sideline Garrett, kick him to the back bench out of harms way, HALT the insulation scheme and promote Combet to clean up the mess? Then call for an inquiry which the Govt is refusing to attend to be asked some questions only to label it a "Liberal stunt" ???

ALL FACTS ....... not some Liberal, hysterical, emotional, diatribe.

You claim not to be representing any particular faction or party. You claim to be a practicing pragmatist as well. You sure are doing a lousy job of disguising it.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

I agree with you trainspotter. If you think the home insulation and school buildings programe were a rort, wait untill the N.B.N gets underway and thats not to mention Canberra running hospital funding. They are also going to fund extra nurse and doctor training, can't wait to see all the household pets enrolled for assistance with training.


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## Julia (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Just a quick comment re the recent Auditor general report into that school spending... as I recall he found about 5% (not sure if it was projects or cash) was not wisely spent.



Whiskers, the government cleverly ensured that the auditor-general was not to look at 'value for money'.  This, of course, is the total point of our objections.  So what sort of a further waste of money is what is being paid to the auditor-general?  The combination of stupidity and spin is breathtaking.


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## Calliope (11 May 2010)

Rudd cannot back down from the resources super tax. He can't survive another back down, and besides he is using the money for health reform. He can use the wedge on the opposition, i.e. if you reject the super tax you reject health reform.



> Yesterday, in a meeting of Labor MPs in the wake of the polling collapse of support for the ALP, Mr Rudd said he would not back down over the proposed resources tax but was prepared to negotiate with the mining companies over "transitional arrangements" and "implementation".
> 
> Facing confrontation from the mining industry and confusion over the new resources tax, senior Labor figures are warning that Mr Rudd cannot afford to "back down" on the resources super-profits tax after his dumping of the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme last month.
> 
> But the Labor states of Queensland and South Australia joined the Liberal government in Western Australia to criticise the new tax and demand changes.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...ners-on-rent-tax/story-e6frgd66-1225864761723


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

moXJO said:


> Don't think he was checking vaule for money either Not sure if that 5% is right.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/schools-watch/ber-auditor-finds-some-progress-on-jobs/story-fn56ulhe-1225862452369




I'll clarify below, moXJO.



Julia said:


> Whiskers, the government cleverly ensured that the auditor-general was not to look at 'value for money'.  This, of course, is the total point of our objections.  So what sort of a further waste of money is what is being paid to the auditor-general?  The combination of stupidity and spin is breathtaking.




By looking at value for money in individual projects, do you mean an independant costing of every project? That cost would have been significant and I don't recall any governments going to that length to scrutinise their own spending programs. Please provide evidence if that's what you think is the norm.

From moXJO's link...



> Ms Gillard said today that *the report found that 95 per cent of school principals saw the program as providing “ongoing value to their school and school community*”.




I don't recall whether is was Gillard or someone else where I heard that 95% of school principals were relatively happy with the work they got.

*But, since 'value' is a rather subjective term, there is more than one way to ascertain whether there was widespread reckless or frauduland spending and the Auditor General found that 95% of School principals were relatively happy.*

Now that doesn't necessairly mean the same as each project construction is value for money compared to third party estimates, but it's an indication that the sort of bad examples highlighted in the media are probably not as widespread as some would have us believe. 

Given the hundreds of projects undertaken, the few bad one's I've seen are certainly bad, but certainly not an extreme number in the total scheme of things. As a mate of mine used to say, sometimes **** happens. I recall some departmental investigation was indicated re some of these cases. There may have even been some sackings or reallocation of duties and still time for fraud charges if applicable. Be a bit patient to let (or get involved in the process of) justice take it's course and see what eventually pans out. 

*As subjectivity goes, what criteria do you use to gauge value for money, micro or macro, fiscal or economic?* Should the gov use the same criteria as you or a private entity?

Is the baby bonus for example value for money... and using what subjective or objective criteria?

Now, I repeat again, I'm also not happy at the poor quality of a canteen building, about double the expected cost of other buildings and getting something other than what the school wanted... nor was I happy with the cost of the 'Pacific Solution' under howard or the current cost of detention centers... I'm just pragmatic about it since at the end of the day the collective voter has the say.

Governments are often not the most cost effective operators. For example during all my school years, and then some, I can recall the State Public Works Department turning up at school regularly sanding back and repainting what seemed to be a perfectly good paint job. 

Being a pragmatist, please provide some real data to make your case not just headlines. I'm sure the opposition and certain parts of the media have investigated widely, show me their data if you think they have more.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

Hello Wiskers, If you were unhappy with the "Pacific Solution" and the current cost of detention centres. You are going to be really happy with the current  Governments latest of housing the asylum seekers or que jumpers in hotels. That should blow the cost out nicely.


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Whiskers also wrote _"Of course the deaths issue, as unpalatable as it may be to some, always rested on the employers under long established workplace laws... as has been indicated with the first of the criminal charges against employers as I recall under the Electricity Safety Act."_
> 
> Is this a legal matter you are attempting to highlight? The report to the Goverment from the experts was presented to Peter Garrett who chose not to read it for a 10 month period before the excreta hit the spinning blades. They clearly outlined this would happen (the deaths that is, which is according to you "unpalatable to some") It should not have happened .... period.




Agree it should not have happened. BUT, as I said before *the long standing workplace safety laws already compelled the employer to provide a safe work place for their employees *as indicated by recent charges being laid, in this case under the Electrical Safety Act.

Realistically, workplace accidents happen all the time. Sometimes the employers fault, sometimes the employees carelessness.



> So if it was the installers fault why did PM Rudd sideline Garrett, kick him to the back bench out of harms way, HALT the insulation scheme and promote Combet to clean up the mess?




*You're overlapping two different and legally seperate issues*. Firstly, as I've said before, I believe the scheme was an all of gov decision, mainly Rudds, but Garratt was demoted to take some anti gov sting out of the issue and appoint a more seasoned operator to defuse it. Partly economic and partly political.

Secondly, if you seriously think an employer can argue loop holes and a scheme prone to abuse (by weakness of policing) as a defence for ignoring long standing workplace safety laws and common law, or even to mitigate his/her responsibility under those laws, you are seriously uninformed legally.

From an administritive financial, economic and policing perspective the scheme was lacking, but none of that negates already inacted and long established workplace safety or common law.

*In a nutshell, those dodgy opertators took a chance at thinking they could cut corners and get away with it, similar to what drunk drivers do every day, endangering other peoples lives... and at least one so far has been charged.*

Your rationalle is somewhat like blaming the gov for poor road condition causing a death. It comes down to the law of negligence. If the party was familiar with the road by driving on it regularly, that is a mitigating circumstance. They knew the deterioting road condition and took the risk. If it was say that roadworks was happening and no signage was in place that's a different matter. The motorist would have a case.

Similarly, workplace safety laws (signage) were long in place and these dodgy installers chose to ignore them. That's entirely their responsibility as is any death that occurred as a result.


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## drsmith (11 May 2010)

Administration is a critical component of any scheme.

If all the responsibility falls on the operators and none on the government as administrators, then why have government in the first place ?


----------



## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

sptrawler said:


> Hello Wiskers, If you were unhappy with the "Pacific Solution" and the current cost of detention centres. You are going to be really happy with the current  Governments latest of housing the asylum seekers or que jumpers in hotels. That should blow the cost out nicely.




Yeah, this is a hell of a mess. While the Howard approach was certainly more effective in stopping illegal arrivals it pushed the boundaries of empathy, compassion and international law.

On the other hand Rudd over-reacted to the compassion side and despite some policy tightening or at least freezing the processing, they really need to do a lot more to stop them from leaving Indonesia.

A simple solution seems to be to flatly refuse to process anyone, or at least give priority to, anyone who applies for political asylum from say our embasy in Indonesia. That would considerably alter the incentive to pay smugglers I would have thought.


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Whiskers wrote "Just a quick comment re the recent Auditor general report into that school spending... as I recall he found about 5% (not sure if it was projects or cash) was not wisely spent. " ........ then has changed his stance to "principals are 95% saw the program as providing ongoing value to their school and school community". *Make up your mind. *Of course school principals are going to say they are happy with the funding. If they object, guess what happens ....... no more funding for you matey boy.

Your attempts at trying to justify the rationale smacks of socialism and not pragmatism as you have so conveniently labelled yourself. Me thinks Whiskers is trolling for bait. Then suddenly you chunder down the road of a legal scope? Not enough rope to hang yourself with? WTF ???

There are that many more points in your voluminous, inective, narrative that reek of BS and spin it should be put down as roadkill.

Last but not least you have devised a further enticement in your post that gives John Howard a spray for the cost of the "Pacific Solution" ........ where the hell is this relevant? Me thinks you are simply trolling again.

It is not possible to have a meaningful debate with someone who has not a grasp on the facts at hand ..... like Peter Garrett had the report for 10 months prior to reading it from the experts warning him that this would happen (deaths, rorting etc) Now if he was a good Minister part of the funding would have gone into TRAINING the corporations to the correct methods OR even better yet, have a task force of experts overseeing the jobs were performed correctly.

Back to the topic RUDD is a FAIL ....... full stop.

Achievement - The ability to have apparently intelligent people troll for replies.

Last post from me on this subject. Getting boring and wasting time.


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> Administration is a critical component of any scheme.
> 
> If all the responsibility falls on the operators and none on the government as administrators, then why have government in the first place ?




I see your point, drsmith, but the short answer is that, as far as I can tell, it was not the intention in the administration of the scheme to vary or replace long standing workplace safety law. 

Intent is the basis for interpreting new law in particular if some aspect is not expressly stated. The law says that unless there was at least an intent to change existing workplace laws, then it is implied that they are not changed.


Similarly with fraud, but it may be easier to escape a fraud charge, depending on the application detail and a case by case basis.


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## drsmith (11 May 2010)

Regardless of the intention, workplace safety law in this instance could not be effectively policed because of the way the scheme was administered.

I would go further and question the intention given that advice regarding safety was ignored.


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> It is not possible to have a meaningful debate with someone who has not a grasp on the facts at hand ..... *like Peter Garrett had the report for 10 months prior to reading it from the experts warning him that this would happen (deaths, rorting etc)*




That was the administritive and political mistake Garrett made, albeit at the behest of Rudd. Hence his linited demotion as opposed to sacking.



> Now if he was a good Minister *part of the funding would have gone into TRAINING the corporations to the correct methods *OR even better yet, have a task force of experts overseeing the jobs were performed correctly.




*BUT, installing insulation in existing homes was not a new concept or work decsription. It had been done millions of times under existing workplace laws.*

This is the point. *There was already long standing workplace safety laws that said* that if you instruct an employee to work around/near electrical infrastructure, you must firstly investigate and if necessary consult an electrician and or *at least turn off the electricity supply before doing work*.

Certainly more training and policing would have been better, but as I explained above legally, it in no way disolves the responsibility of dodgy operators to ignore long standing practice to at least turn off the electricity.

I understand the electricity was left on so they could use fans and lights on the homes electricity supply to work, rather than say bring their own power supply. Clearly negligence as was not checking their work for current afterwards.

*Show me something in the scheme that said to ignore long standing practice and safety laws, trainspotter.*

Ignorance is no excuse for incompetence or negligence.


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> Regardless of the intention, workplace safety law in this instance could not be effectively policed because of the way the scheme was administered.
> 
> I would go further and question the intention given that advice regarding safety was ignored.




But most trade jobs are not checked by someone else. Just like every tax return is not checked by the tax office. Policing is limited to suspicious behaviour, complaints and an ocassional random audit. 

In hindsight it certainly seems wise to have had a requirement that every installer get an electrical certification after completion of each job... but that would not necessairly have saved employees from getting electricuted during the job... and given an already shortage of electricians and likely delay, would it really have stopped dodgy installers?

I agree and said repeatedly, it was an inefficient insulation method and expense of money, but that doesn't absolve the dodgy operators of their legal responsibilities.

*I didn't apply for the rebate, so I can't be accused of justifying it or perpetuating it by participating in it, like some. *


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Ignorance is no excuse for incompetence or negligence.


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## moXJO (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> *BUT, installing insulation in existing homes was not a new concept or work decsription. It had been done millions of times under existing workplace laws.*
> 
> This is the point. *There was already long standing workplace safety laws that said* that if you instruct an employee to work around/near electrical infrastructure, you must firstly investigate and if necessary consult an electrician and or *at least turn off the electricity supply before doing work*.
> 
> .




All true, the problem is every man and his dog ran out to become an batt installer. You also had guys start up as sole traders and had no experience except for a 2 week course (think it was that long?). So they had no old hands to point out the risks, fresh guys to the industry just don't see dangerous situations. And they would not have been there if the govt didn’t mismanage it to such a degree
So imo the government created a dangerous situation by throwing so much stimulus in such a short period of time. It was all done in a very shoddy manner. The government left huge holes in the scheme to be rorted, and created a very dangerous situation. In all my years I have not seen anything like it (except maybe BER)
 All the guys that were in it for years are now facing bankruptcy after the ar$e was torn out of the industry. So no it was very badly managed by the government. It had huge problems and now they are ripping it back out FAIL


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Responses for Insultation should be directed here: - 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=553054&highlight=insulation#post553054


:topic


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## bunyip (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Yeah, this is a hell of a mess. While the Howard approach was certainly more effective in stopping illegal arrivals it pushed the boundaries of empathy, compassion and international law.
> 
> On the other hand Rudd over-reacted to the compassion side and despite some policy tightening or at least freezing the processing, they really need to do a lot more to stop them from leaving Indonesia.
> 
> A simple solution seems to be to flatly refuse to process anyone, or at least give priority to, anyone who applies for political asylum from say our embasy in Indonesia. That would considerably alter the incentive to pay smugglers I would have thought.




The solution would appear to be zero acceptance of any immigrants who don't apply through the legal channels. They want to come here, either they apply through the legal processes or they miss out. 
That way we can't be accused of being anti-immigration or lacking in compassion or whatever. Not that I think we should give a stuff what anyone else thinks - this is our country to run as we see fit, and the rest of the world can shove their opinions up their jumpers.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

Whiskers with regard the insulation rebate. When the last Government enacted the vehicle L.P.G rebate the customer had to pay for the conversion then remit the invoice through medicare and take the car in for a vehicle examination before the customer was refunded. From what I understand with the insulation rebate the insulation supplier sent in an invoice and was paid. This led to installers going halves with bogus recipients. Thats the problem with throwing money around, there is a lot of people who will work out how to rort it. The other moral problem is what about all the responsible, enviromentally caring people who payed to put insulation in their own homes and then have to subsidise putting insulation in other peoples houses. This is the problem you have a Government making grandiose statements without taking into consideration the effect on WORKING FAMILIES who are trying to get ahead of their own backs. I hope there are plenty of people with new plasmas that can vote for them. Because NORMAL WORKING FAMILIES get SOD ALL.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

Jeez you have got me going. The next thing coming through the Rudd spin machine is the extra money to pensioners. From the feedback from my Mum it has been swallowed up by increases in rent,electricity. so all they are doing is stopping pensioners eating dog food. Then what about all the mums and dads with Telstra shares "Buy them and look after your own future" I know they were floated by the Liberals but at the time the Labour party said "$3.40 all you are doing is looking after your fat cat mates". The next float over $7 woopee. Now you have the Government deciding you want high speed internet BLAH BLAH BLAH


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> What about the insulation scheme?






trainspotter said:


> *Last post from me on this subject*. Getting boring and wasting time.




Lol... you're starting to sound like Rudd. 


That's my final offer. there will not be any extra cash... -> another offer with more cash.

I'm not backing down on this matter... -> backdown.



trainspotter said:


> Ignorance is no excuse for incompetence or negligence.




...-> not quite last post! 



> Responses for Insultation should be directed here: -
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/for...ion#post553054




Oops, and yet another post,   and... back to the top... who persued the digression.


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## drsmith (11 May 2010)

There are two major problems with this government as I see it.

1) Failure to implement policy satisfactorily. This could be a product of too much power in the hands of too few few (or one ?) within the ALP leading to policy formulation and implementation from a too narrower perspective.

2) An ideology too far towards re-distributing the economic pie and not enough towards growing it (socialism).

This government is no Hawke/Keating government sadly.


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## trainspotter (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Lol... you're starting to sound like Rudd.
> 
> 
> That's my final offer. there will not be any extra cash... -> another offer with more cash.
> ...




LOLOLOL Whiskers ... you really need to learn how to spell old ****. Once again you have FAILED just like Rudd. 

The subject I was referrring to was the Insulation Debacle which you have focused on in this thread. I posted the "ignorance is no excuse for incompetence or negligence" is that you are displaying for your inabilty to grasp the most basic of comprehension on the subject matter at hand.

I also posted that the manure you are spreading belongs in another thread ... off topic again and getting boring.

Yes I have posted again in response to your trolling. Well done Whiskers ... I believe you will go far in the Labor Party. *slow hand clap and exit stage right*

Back to the topic RUDD is a FAIL ....... full stop.

Achievement - The ability to have apparently intelligent people troll for replies.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

Rudd Government failings can be summed up as: Kev says "put your hands on your heads" Kev says "put your hands on your hips" . OH that didn't work Kev says"put your head between your legs and kiss ****** "you know the rest


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## todster (11 May 2010)

If Whiskers stopped posting what would the usual suspects quote?


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## Julia (11 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> By looking at value for money in individual projects, do you mean an independant costing of every project? That cost would have been significant and I don't recall any governments going to that length to scrutinise their own spending programs. Please provide evidence if that's what you think is the norm.



Whiskers, you appear to have unlimited time to construct verbose and largely illogical posts.  That's quite up to you.  But if you imagine I'm going to trawl through the various media to find you verbatim quotes of the rorting, then you will be sorely disappointed.

To be candid, I'm now convinced you are just trolling.  Your remarks don't demonstrate any genuine capacity to consider the realities.

I will just say two things:

There was a detailed report in "The Australian" a few weeks ago which quoted the costs for a considerable proportion (more than half) of the schools building as being *double per square metre*for a simple single storey hall or library compared to a *multi storey office block in the much more awkward building situation of a CBD, including elevators, multiple ablution facilities per floor etc etc.*.



> I don't recall whether is was Gillard or someone else where I heard that 95% of school principals were relatively happy with the work they got.



Of course they're going to say that unless the outcome is really badly built.  There is no suggestion that the actual buildings have been substandard, just that they are simply not value for our taxpayer dollars.



> *But, since 'value' is a rather subjective term, there is more than one way to ascertain whether there was widespread reckless or frauduland spending and the Auditor General found that 95% of School principals were relatively happy.*



It's not subjective at all, if you simply compare cost per sq metre for like buildings.

The schools were not permitted to get their own quotes for what they wanted and were not permitted to ensure there was real value for money.
Instead large contracts to major construction firms were let. these firms building in various extra 'project fees' and similarly euphemistic terms to cover the excessive cost.
Some parent teacher associations raised strong objections but were overruled.  It is, however, due to their persistence that any investigation at all is happening.




> Given the hundreds of projects undertaken, the few bad one's I've seen are certainly bad, but certainly not an extreme number in the total scheme of things. As a mate of mine used to say, sometimes **** happens. I recall some departmental investigation was indicated re some of these cases. There may have even been some sackings or reallocation of duties and still time for fraud charges if applicable. Be a bit patient to let (or get involved in the process of) justice take it's course and see what eventually pans out.



Terrific, Whiskers.  Let's just all sit back and smile, and say oh well it will all work out in the end!  For god's sake, some of us actually care about how our tax dollars are spent, especially when we have people struggling to exist on miserable benefits, people who are homeless, who can't get a hospital bed etc.  Where is your sense of priorities?





moXJO said:


> All true, the problem is every man and his dog ran out to become an batt installer. You also had guys start up as sole traders and had no experience except for a 2 week course (think it was that long?).



Ah moXJO, you exaggerate.  The course was two whole days.  I know this because one of the quotes I got came from a bloke who was a carpenter.
He said when he came to do the quote:  "This is the easiest money I've ever made in my life, I'm just raking it in for doing next to nothing."
He went on to say that all he had to do was spend five minutes on the internet to register, go down to the Gold Coast and sit through people talking about insulation for two days, no questions asked at the end or assessment of the competence of the participating would-be installers, and off he went.

He came back and was able to employ as many additional installers as he wanted, none of whom were required to do the course or have any qualifications or experience.  All was just okey dokey as long as he himself had done the two days.

He quoted 50% more than did the two long established firms from whom I also received quotes.  Although I had no intention of using this shyster, I suggested he needed to reduce his quote to be more reasonable if he wanted the work.  "Not on your life", he said, "I have as much work as I need at the price I'm charging".
So there you are, there's a first hand example of the sort of crap that has gone on.

And here's one more:  I eventually decided I wouldn't have the insulation installed after all, so cancelled the arrangement I'd made with a well known national firm.  To my amazement, several months later, a bunch of paper arrived in the mail, declaring that insulation was installed to the exact value of $1600 (the amount of the subsidy) in September at my address.
Would I please sign the attached form and return so they could claim from the government.

I reported this fraud to the government hotline, and guess what, Whiskers?
They just didn't want to know about it.  Didn't want to take down the name of the firm or any other details.  So much for the government wanting to know about any rorting.
So I sent the details to the Opposition.  They were decidedly more interested.


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## Whiskers (11 May 2010)

bunyip said:


> The solution would appear to be zero acceptance of any immigrants who don't apply through the legal channels. They want to come here, either they apply through the legal processes or they miss out.
> That way we can't be accused of being anti-immigration or lacking in compassion or whatever. Not that I think we should give a stuff what anyone else thinks - this is our country to run as we see fit, and the rest of the world can shove their opinions up their jumpers.




Yes, largely agree, but we are for better or worse, party to international conventions that compell us to at least process and accept some political asylum sekers that land on our shores. 

But I think a much stronger case could be made that most, especially those who travelled past numerous embassies and paid smugglers to get them onto our shores en mass, should be treated prima facie as conspiring to attempt illegal entry and simply deported to their home country. Assylum should not even be considered from those who demonstrate, criminality, an attempt to circumvent the law.


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## Bobby (11 May 2010)

Great last post Julia , still shaking my head !!

Cheers Bob.


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## sptrawler (11 May 2010)

Well Jullia, I haven't had first hand experience like you,`but anyone can see what a disaster would happen with Rudd running the hospitals with 30% of the G.S.T and the $43 billion for the NBN


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## Whiskers (12 May 2010)

Julia said:


> Whiskers, you appear to have unlimited time to construct verbose and largely illogical posts.




No and No. You just don't get that I was just pointing out the facts as the law stands.

I've yet to be proven wrong or even challenged on the legal aspects... just too much emotional finger pointing. 

Now I don't care how much you blame Rudd or even if he gets voted out... *my concern is that too many people are giving the dodgy operators and fraudsters a free ride and not at least equally blaming them.*

I refer you back to my earlier drunk driver examples. Hotel open hours is another forseeable recipe for trouble that the gov doesn't always post extra police to protect people from themselves or from others. It happens all the time but is no excuse for people to break the law and endanger others in the process. 



> It's not subjective at all, if you simply compare cost per sq metre for like buildings.




But you highlight exactly my point. 

By subjective (opinion) you see the cost in isolation that single buildings should be compared to optimum price controls.

I acknowledge that it would be best for gov's to perform work at optimum costs, but the reality is that rarely happens either at local, state or fed levels at the best of times.

But, your 'subjective' view (opinion) doesn't acknowledge two things:


The exceptional circumstances of the GFC and the macro objective (factual economic benefit) of the scheme that most economists say was a good thing... to get a heap of construction underway in a hurry to boost employment, business activity and avoid going into recession, and

the cost premium for getting work organised in a hurry.

An objective (measurable facts) view of the stimulus by most economists say it was necessary and successfull in stimulating economic activity, reducing unemployment and avoiding recession.

Also the subjective view (opinion) of most economists say that the greater good of paying lots of people to build something, as opposed to paying the dole (and doing nothing) and successfully avoiding a recession, is value for the additional cost of the urgency of this work in the greater economic good.   

Just highlighting the difference in subjective value of the scheme... but I know it doesn't ease the pain of those exorbitant cost examples from a local point of view.


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## Logique (12 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> There are two major problems with this government as I see it.
> 
> 1) Failure to implement policy satisfactorily. This could be a product of too much power in the hands of too few few (or one ?) within the ALP leading to policy formulation and implementation from a too narrower perspective.
> 
> ...



Well said Dr Zachary. The May budget is a house of cards, because it is based on expected future revenue from the miners. The govt simply refuses to comprehend the industry dynamics of the Australian resources industry. Except that is, when they want to criticize the former government - ie '..the Coalition only had a surplus because of the resources boom..'.

The budgetary effects of the proposed 'Canadian Miners Stimulus Package' (RSPT), would imho surprise the govt to the downside. We are already seeing domestic projects shelved in favour of overseas ones.


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## trainspotter (12 May 2010)

Once again I reiterate that responses to the "Insulation Debacle" be placed in the appropriate thread. This is directed at YOU Whiskers. BTW ... Julia knocked you out of the park. FAIL ~ !!


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## nioka (12 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Once again I reiterate that responses to the "Insulation Debacle" be placed in the appropriate thread. This is directed at YOU Whiskers. BTW ... Julia knocked you out of the park. FAIL ~ !!




As I see it, Whiskers replied to a post here. ????????????????????????? As todster inferred, what would you have to post about if there were no posts by Whiskers.

At least Whiskers is putting forward rational arguments. You can't say that about a lot af the biased anti Rudd regardless posters.

Try posting about a stock. After all this used to be a stock forum.

P.S. This post is made just to feed the trolls.


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## trainspotter (12 May 2010)

nioka said:


> As I see it, Whiskers replied to a post here. ????????????????????????? As todster inferred, what would you have to post about if there were no posts by Whiskers.
> 
> At least Whiskers is putting forward rational arguments. You can't say that about a lot af the biased anti Rudd regardless posters.
> 
> Try posting about a stock. After all this used to be a stock forum.




I would prefer to post nothing then read inaccurate statments. I would prefer to read inaccurate statments in the correct thread and then post a response inaccurately. 

Whiskers responses are not rational. Once cornered the inducement is to change tactic or simply not answer the question. Some of the people that post in here are DEFINITELY anti PM Kevin Rudd. I am anti a government that squanders money and produces wastage. I have given the Leader of the Opposition Tony Abbott a serve of venom in other threads as well. 

BTW this thread is titles "Rudd Government failings vs. achievements" and not about the legalities of the Employment Act. But you with your IQ of 142 would understand this nioka. Andy Warhol had an IQ of 86 by the way. 

I am more than happy to continue this discussion in the appropriate thread about the "Insulation Debacle". 

As far as I am aware this is the "General Chat" part of ASF and not the Investment Section or Stocks. It is allowable to post freely in here as a member is it not? 

P.S. - Loved your P.S.


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## Whiskers (12 May 2010)

Logique said:


> Well said Dr Zachary. The May budget is a house of cards, because it is based on expected future revenue from the miners.




I agree there. It's got the job ahead of it to get it all through the senate in tact. But as someone suggested, they may succeed in winning over the greens to get the numbers.



> The govt simply refuses to comprehend the industry dynamics of the Australian resources industry.




I think they do based on Henry's report. But there's no doubt it's a dareing proposition. See the Mining Tax Grab - How will it pan out thread https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19464



> The budgetary effects of the proposed 'Canadian Miners Stimulus Package' (RSPT), would imho surprise the govt to the downside. We are already seeing domestic projects shelved in favour of overseas ones.




BUT Canada cannot sustain that stimulus for long and the miners know that. It will only be a tempory handout. Look at the level of their debt compared to Aus at my previous post #293 & #295.



trainspotter said:


> Once again I reiterate that responses to the "Insulation Debacle" be placed in the appropriate thread. This is directed at YOU Whiskers. BTW ... Julia knocked you out of the park. FAIL ~ !!




What's up mate.

Troll: someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community.

As pointed out earlier you led the thread off topic and are now crying foul because all your trolling failed to get the result you wanted.

As I am trying to point out ad nauseum, some of you don't or can't:

destinguish the legal issues from the political, and
my concern is that too many people are giving the dodgy operators and fraudsters a free ride and not at least equally blaming them for perpetuating the problem.

To say it's all the gov's fault is just plain nonsense.

Further to the subjectivity of the value for money point, you might recall a similarar controvosy when Howard sent our troops to war set up privately run detention centres, the Pacific Solution and compiled a bailout of his brothers failed company. The costs were substantial and while many didn't like it, the greater economic good was the justifing end regardless of the isolated cost of the war, individual detention centre's or concern re mates favours.

I repeat again, inefficient spending on projects if you want to cost them in isolation is nothing new for gov. It's not ideal, just pragmatic that it happens sometimes in their haste to achieve a greater good.

PS: trainspotter, mate... concentrate, focus... I'm focused on the subjectivity of some of the blame for the gov failings.


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## Happy (12 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> ...
> 
> I repeat again, inefficient spending on projects if you want to cost them in isolation is nothing new for gov. It's not ideal, just pragmatic that it *happens sometimes in their haste to achieve a greater good.*
> ...





I am not too happy about the reason and the ultimate aim of *greater good* which in my opinion is to be just re-elected.


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## sam76 (12 May 2010)

I started the thread

I say let 'er rip.


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## Calliope (12 May 2010)

I just watched the 7.30 report, with Kerry O'Brien interviewing Rudd. Rudd refused to answer any questions. He responds to any question with a set spiel which we have heard over and over coming out of his prissy mouth. He would talk under wet cement.

O'Brien tried to pin him on why he wouldn't go to a double dissolution on the "greatest moral challenge of our times" the ETS, and even implied that it was cowardice. Rudd got rattled but raved on without answering the question.

What a rat!


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## noco (12 May 2010)

Calliope said:


> I just watched the 7.30 report, with Kerry O'Brien interviewing Rudd. Rudd refused to answer any questions. He responds to any question with a set spiel which we have heard over and over coming out of his prissy mouth. He would talk under wet cement.
> 
> O'Brien tried to pin him on why he wouldn't go to a double dissolution on the "greatest moral challenge of our times" the ETS, and even implied that it was cowardice. Rudd got rattled but raved on without answering the question.
> 
> What a rat!




Yes Calliope, he was absolutely pathetic. Blamed everything and everybody but himself. So much for the "BUCK STOPS WITH ME". He just cannot help himself with his spin and BS!!!!!!!!!

I was waiting for O'Brien to ask him why he (Rudd) reneged on taking over the hospital system like he said he would instead of offering a watered down funding arrangement.


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## nioka (12 May 2010)

noco said:


> Yes Calliope, he was absolutely pathetic. Blamed everything and everybody but himself. So much for the "BUCK STOPS WITH ME". He just cannot help himself with his spin and BS!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I was waiting for O'Brien to ask him why he (Rudd) reneged on taking over the hospital system like he said he would instead of offering a watered down funding arrangement.




Funny the different way different people see things. I thought that Kerry was pushing Rudd hard ( contrary to some posts here that said O'Brien goes softly softly on Labour). I thought that Rudds responses were reasonable and consistant with events that have unfolded.


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## noco (12 May 2010)

nioka said:


> Funny the different way different people see things. I thought that Kerry was pushing Rudd hard ( contrary to some posts here that said O'Brien goes softly softly on Labour). I thought that Rudds responses were reasonable and consistant with events that have unfolded.




nioka, I guess that's your perogative to express faith in a dead horse, because even if he wins the next election their will be a LABOR party revolt to depose of the carcass a soon as possible, like within 3 months after the election.


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## Julia (12 May 2010)

nioka said:


> Funny the different way different people see things. I thought that Kerry was pushing Rudd hard ( contrary to some posts here that said O'Brien goes softly softly on Labour). I thought that Rudds responses were reasonable and consistant with events that have unfolded.




I agree that Kerry did display some objectivity in pushing Mr Rudd quite hard.
Don't think there was much more he could have done to counter Mr Rudd's determination to avoid the question.

It was really a fairly pointless interview in that there was no way Mr Rudd was going to say "well, yes, Kerry, you're absolutely right:  in shelving the ETS I am indeed displaying the great moral cowardice I alleged against the Opposition".

For me, all the interview achieved was the sense that, prior to the election, someone at the ABC has told K. O'Brien that he absolutely has to be seen to be impartial to both sides.


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## nioka (12 May 2010)

When I say that Rudds comments were reasonable







noco said:


> nioka, I guess that's your perogative to express faith in a dead horse, because even if he wins the next election their will be a LABOR party revolt to depose of the carcass a soon as possible, like within 3 months after the election.




That is an example of what i mean when i say people see things differently. You assume I am actually promoting Rudd and Labor and faith in a dead horse. You are wrong.

1. The horse is sick, not dead.
2. When I say Rudds comments were reasonable you assume that I agree that he fully answered all questions while I mean "what other way would a politition answer the question in the lead up to an election".
3. You see Labour probably losing the next election. I don't.
4. If he did win you say he will only last 2 to 3 months. If he wins, and I suggest he will, I see him being a hero again within the party.
5.You assume I am a staunch Labor supporter. I am not. I will vote for the Libs again BUT NOT WITH ABBOTT leading them.


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## trainspotter (12 May 2010)

nioka said:


> When I say that Rudds comments were reasonable
> 
> That is an example of what i mean when i say people see things differently. You assume I am actually promoting Rudd and Labor and faith in a dead horse. You are wrong.
> 
> ...




Hear hear nioka ! What is written is easy to be taken out of context. Good to see that you have the judgement of Solomon on this one.


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## trainspotter (12 May 2010)

sam76 said:


> I started the thread
> 
> I say let 'er rip.




If you pay the speeding fines I will get you to the airport on time BUT let's do it in the appropriate thread. The "Insulation Debacle" is where it belongs. Like I wrote, I am more than happy to be engaged in the frontal lobe joustings of a worthy adversary. Bring it !

*Sorry ... did not see the K. O'Brien interview.* Judging by the posts Mr Rudd covered himself in glory yet again.


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## Calliope (12 May 2010)

Julia said:


> For me, all the interview achieved was the sense that, prior to the election, someone at the ABC has told K. O'Brien that he absolutely has to be seen to be impartial to both sides.




I don't think so Julia. I just think that O'Brien finds Rudd obnoxious.


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## Whiskers (12 May 2010)

Happy said:


> I am not too happy about the reason and the ultimate aim of *greater good* which in my opinion is to be just re-elected.




The greater good is basically a case of the end justifying the means.

Yes Happy, their main aim (end) is indeed to be re-elected... but I think while they succeeded in the greater good of averting a recession, the (means) over-baking the insulation scheme in particular may still hurt their re-election chances.




sam76 said:


> I started the thread
> 
> I say let 'er rip.




Lol... whatever you say boss.


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## GumbyLearner (13 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> The greater good is basically a case of the end justifying the means.
> 
> Yes Happy, their main aim (end) is indeed to be re-elected... but I think while they succeeded in the greater good of averting a recession, the (means) over-baking the insulation scheme in particular may still hurt their re-election chances.
> 
> ...




So Krudd, Swan & Co are benthamites?

Well, where's the Panopticon for taxpayers??


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## Calliope (13 May 2010)

The cornered rat loses its cool.



> Opposition climate change spokesman Greg Hunt likened Mr Rudd's inflamed display to former Labor leader Mark Latham.
> 
> "It appears that under the slightest pressure, the Prime Minister is looking increasingly out of control," he said.
> 
> "He is making wildly erratic decisions and morphing into Mark Latham, but without the conviction," Mr Hunt said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...ction-kevin-rudd/story-e6frgczf-1225865756135


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## bunyip (13 May 2010)

Let Us Pray

This is from a church minister:

We were in slow-moving traffic the other day and the car in front of us had a ‘Prime Minister Rudd’ sticker on the rear window which read: "Pray for Our Prime Minister Rudd, Wayne Swan and Anna Bligh  Ref:- Psalm 109:8".

My husband's Bible was lying on the dash board so he picked it up, opened it to the scripture and read it. 
He started laughing. Then he read it to me. I couldn't believe what it said. I had a good laugh, too. 

Psalm 109:8
"Let his days be few; and let another take his office. " 

At last - I can voice a Biblical prayer for the entire Labour Parliament members. 
Let us all bow our heads and pray.


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## gav (13 May 2010)

LOL Bunyip!  Here's my prayer:

Dear Lord,

I know that I don't talk to you that much, but this past year you have taken away my favourite actor, Patrick Swayze, my favourite actress, Farah Fawcett and my favourite musician, Michael Jackson. 
I just wanted to let you know that my favourite prime minister is Kevin Rudd.

Amen


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## trainspotter (13 May 2010)

Rudd07 - Out by 11


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## todster (13 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Rudd07 - Out by 11




Is that a failure or achievement or both?


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## trainspotter (13 May 2010)

todster said:


> Is that a failure or achievement or both?




LOLOLOL todster .... I like the way you think !

Achievements- 
1. rescuing the economy from the global financial crisis;
2. commitment to limit real spending growth to 2% a year;
3. the resources rent tax;
4. greater transparency in superannuation arrangements (including inappropriate financial advice and a stop to commissions);
5. improved quality of life in our schools;
6. investment in social housing;
7. tempering the Howard Government’s workplace reform;
8. apology to aborigines and some gains in aboriginal poverty;
9. review of the qualifying age for the Age Pension to 67 years;
10. generous increases in pension payments;
11. cutbacks in salary sacrifice for superannuation e.g. reducing the cap from $100,000 to $50,000;
12. My School website;
13. implementing the Paid Parental Leave Scheme;
14. reform of bank regulation e.g. on bank capital;
15. youth allowance provision;
16. big new investment in public hospitals;
17. addressing homeless people;
18. investment in nation building infrastructure;
19. investment in jobs and training;
20. fairer and more sustainable private health insurance and incentives (admittedly, a broken promise)

(Most of the above are generalisations and have not really been inplemented or made as policy through the senate yet.)

Fail - Getting angry with Kerry O'Brien and looking like a complete goose to the voting public.


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## c-unit (13 May 2010)

Just watched the 7:30 report then. It makes for brilliant viewing! Rudd's absolutely lost it, can't believe he said something like "Listen mate, I stayed up for 3 days and 3 nights trying to get a climate agreement which is a lot tougher than your life in 7:30 report land".

LOL! Kerry won't like that. Hilarious. Perhaps Kerry will declare war.


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## noco (13 May 2010)

The following extract is from Mary Venon's "ABOUT TOWN" Townsville Daily Bulletin 13/05/2010.

Australia Post created a new stamp displaying a piture of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and has recently suspended a recall of the stamps requested by Mr. Rudd after a special commission inquiry finding. The Prime Minister had been told the stamp was not sticking to envelopes and, enraged, he demanded a full investigation. After a month of testing and spending $1.73 million, a special commission presented the following findings:

1) The stamp is in perfect order.

2) There is nothing wrong with the adhesive.

3) People are spitting on the wrong side of the stamp.


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## todster (13 May 2010)

noco said:


> The following extract is from Mary Venon's "ABOUT TOWN" Townsville Daily Bulletin 13/05/2010.
> 
> Australia Post created a new stamp displaying a piture of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and has recently suspended a recall of the stamps requested by Mr. Rudd after a special commission inquiry finding. The Prime Minister had been told the stamp was not sticking to envelopes and, enraged, he demanded a full investigation. After a month of testing and spending $1.73 million, a special commission presented the following findings:
> 
> ...




Geez they must be retarded in Townsville stamps have been self adhesive for a few years now


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## matty77 (13 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> 2. commitment to limit real spending growth to 2% a year;
> .




if you factor in the spending they are going to do on the NBN it is nowhere near 2% per year.


http://www.news.com.au/business/fed...wo-great-fiddles/story-fn5dkrsb-1225865800512



> THE Government's claim to fiscal rectitude is an utter sham. Wayne Swan's budget is built on two great fiddles.
> 
> Appropriately, the fiddles relate to the Rudd Government's two great stupidities -- the National Broadband Network and the Emissions Trading Scheme.
> 
> ...


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## Julia (13 May 2010)

The following is one of the comments following Terry McCrann's article:


> Let me put it in VERY SIMPLE terms for you. This budget is for 2010. If NBN does not kick off in 2010, 2011 or even 2012, WHY SHOULD IT BE LISTED HERE. I am damned sure that the public already know about it, unless one has been completely obtuse. Have you done your own personal budget For This Year, and listed in it what you plan on spending a couple of years down the track?




That seems fair enough, doesn't it?  The ETS has been shelved indefinitely, so surely it's right not to include the cost of it in the 2010 budget.  And I've also criticised the non-inclusion of the NBN, but again that doesn't kick off in this financial year, so fairly reasonably should not appear?

However, I may be completely misunderstanding how the budget is constructed and be quite wrong about this.
Does anyone have proper understanding of how it's supposed to work?

Perhaps Tony Abbott will this evening shed some light on this.


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## noco (13 May 2010)

todster said:


> Geez they must be retarded in Townsville stamps have been self adhesive for a few years now




Yes todster, we are all well aware that stamps are self adhesive even in Townsville. We  also lead a relaxed life in Townsville and can appreciate the humour expressed by Mary Vernon with lots of laughter, albeit at the expense of our Prime Minister, who, would have jumped in boots and all had the statement been true.

Hope you too have a sense of humour and have LOL!


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## Whiskers (13 May 2010)

matty77 said:


> if you factor in the spending they are going to do on the NBN it is nowhere near 2% per year.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/business/fed...wo-great-fiddles/story-fn5dkrsb-1225865800512






Julia said:


> The following is one of the comments following Terry McCrann's article:
> 
> 
> That seems fair enough, doesn't it?  The ETS has been shelved indefinitely, so surely it's right not to include the cost of it in the 2010 budget.  And I've also criticised the non-inclusion of the NBN, but again that doesn't kick off in this financial year, so fairly reasonably should not appear?
> ...




One bit in the article also says;



> One bit of fine print says the reserve includes provisions for "future equity investments" in the NBN. This is subject to the Government's final response to the implementation study and, accordingly, "is not disclosed".




with the emphasis on 'equity' which is technically different to spending.

Not sure about McCrann. But he certainly has a bee in his bonnet.



> Appropriately, the fiddles relate to the Rudd Government's two great stupidities -- the National Broadband Network and the Emissions Trading Scheme.




He seems to be getting ahead of himself, worrying about (political) planning for projects up to three years or more away, even if they do get off the ground.

As far as I can tell the budget is technically correct.  The significant thing that he is muddling is the difference between 'Planning' and 'Budgeting'... which blunts his arguement on financial and economic grounds... except maybe for those who don't have a good accounting understanding.


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## bunyip (13 May 2010)

Another failing of the Rudd government - a woefully under-funded aged care sector. 
To be fair, aged care was woefully under-funded by the Howard government as well. In fact I can't think of any government that's provided adequate funding to the aged care industry. 

But a solution might be at hand for senior citizens - see below.

_SENIOR HEALTH CARE SOLUTION.

So you're a sick senior citizen and the government says there is no nursing home available for you - what do you do? 

Our plan gives anyone 65 years or older a gun and 4 bullets. You are allowed to shoot 2 MPs and 2 Ministers – not necessarily dead.   

Of course, this means you will be sent to prison where you will get three meals a day, a roof over your head, central heating, and all the health care you need!  New teeth - no problem.  Need glasses, great. New hip, knees, kidney, lungs, heart?  All covered. (And your kids can come and visit you as often as they do now). 

And who will be paying for all of this?  The same government that just told you that you they cannot afford for you to go into a home. 

Plus, because you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income taxes anymore. 

IS THIS A GREAT COUNTRY OR WHAT?_


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## Whiskers (13 May 2010)

You've excelled again, bunyip. lol 

On a serious note, I'm sure I heard an old chap on the Sunshine Coast somewhere say he was going to stand as a canditate on the platform of doubling the age pension... at least I think he was serious. 

Given the high aged population on the coast, he'll no doubt get some votes and preferences may even decide a seat.


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## noco (13 May 2010)

Another failure by the Prime Ministers Department press advisers.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...tection-spending/story-e6frgd86-1225866094500


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## sam76 (28 May 2010)

Here's another one...

Rudd treats us like mugs with latest backslide on government ads May 28, 2010 - 12:44PM



* ...the Rudd Government has decided to suspend its own flimsy guidelines for policing taxpayer funded advertising in order to get $38.5 million worth of ads praising its tax reforms on the air. Pronto.*



Kevin Rudd comes to office in 2007 promising he will not abuse the process of government funded advertising like the Howard Government did so egregiously.

If climate change was the "great moral challenge of our time" government advertising, according to Rudd in 2007, was "a long term cancer on our democracy."

He wins. He appoints the Auditor-General to police government ads.

The Auditor-General runs a ruler over everything, thinking he’s doing his job (given the cancer and all that). He asks lots of questions.

The government gets annoyed and bones him.

The government installs a new independent committee of former public servants to play the Auditors’ role.

These public servants report to the government, (unlike the Auditor-General, who is independent from Government and reports to the Parliament.)

To cap off the backflip, it amends it own guidelines to give itself more discretion to bypass even the new watered down process in order to respond in cases where someone in the government decides there is a ‘‘compelling reason’’ to ”” how can I put this delicately ”” go for broke at the taxpayers expense. Then, today, it fulfils its own disappointing prophesy.

It takes advantage of its new ‘‘flexibility’’.

It decides it won’t even bother with its new watered down accountability process and just whacks ads on the air.


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...ackslide-on-government-ads-20100528-wja5.html


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## trainspotter (28 May 2010)

Find below Kevin’s Report card for 2008, 2009 and 2010.
Mark of F ++++++++

• Save the whales – FAIL++++++
• Fuelwatch, $21M – FAIL+++
• Kids Laptops – FAIL+++
• National Broadband Network ($4b-$7B-$43B): To cost about $20,000 a connection – FAIL+++++++
• Mining Super Profit Tax – Share Market and Superannuation values crash – FAIL +++++++++++++
• Grocery Watch/Choice – dumped $13 million vow – FAIL++
• Federal takeover of hospitals by mid 2009 if no improvement. – EPIC FAIL+++
• Hospital Reform – just take the money from the States – FAIL+
• Schools Stimulus Infrastructure Program (BEBR - Builders Early Retirement Fund) – FAIL+++
• Bribe to Free To Air TV Stations – FAIL++
• Refugees: how many boats so far? – FAIL+++++++++
• Refugees suspension backflip – FAIL++++
• 2020 Summit - 1000 B&B; minds, $2+m = 9 usable ideas - EPIC FAIL+++++++
• Batts in , Batts out – SUPER DUPER 2 BILLION DOLLARS MEGA FAIL++++++
• Kill off Insulation Industry – FAIL+
• Upcoming Huge Budget Deficit – FAIL++++++
• Mining Tax – FAIL++++++++++
• Childcare Centre Building program scrapped – FAIL++
• Carbon emissions reduction - LPG conversion subsidies phased out – FAIL++
• Carbon emissions reduction (2): household solar rebate axed 9/6 – FAIL++
• ETS - Greatest Moral Challenge of our Time – FAIL+
• Return Schapelle Corby to Australia – FAIL+++
• Fight inflation genie – Oops GFC – FAIL++++
• Taxes up (gas, diesel,transport, alcopops) – inflationary – FAIL+++++
• Arresting Iranian leaders: stunt – FAIL+
• Bank guarantee - over 200,000 accounts frozen from September 2008. – FAIL+++
• Cash Splash 1 –borrowed – FAIL
• Cash Splash 2: borrowed $42B – FAIL
• Work Choices/fair work: awards backflips – tourism/food industry dispensation but farmers will be out of work. – FAIL+++
• Defence: cut expenditure & build weaponry? – FAIL
• Homeland Security Department – “non-core promise” broken Nov 28, 2007 – FAIL
• The buck stops with me – so where are you? – FAIL+++++++++++
• Tough Decisions – Ahh never – FAIL+++++++++++++
• Securing Murray/Darling water – FAIL+++++
• IVF: cuts. – FAIL++
• Medicare/private health: rebate same/lie – FAIL+++
• Dental scheme: gone 22.Cataract surgery: costs doubled – FAIL++++++
• Superannuation: government needs it more than us. – FAIL
• Home Savers Grant: fizzer, lack of people saving – FAIL
• First Home Owners grant: lifted, inflating house prices – FAIL
• GP super clinics - $275M. – FAIL++++
• Non-compulsory university union fees: voted down – FAIL
• Worker share options – blunder – FAIL
• Ruddbank – FAIL
• Reduce consultancies by $112 million = increase to $800 million (6354 consultancies) – FAIL
• Govt will pay small business invoices on time = takes a lot longer – FAIL
• No nuclear Waste Dump NT – election promise – broken June 2008 – FAIL
• $15 million to rural research & development corporations – election promise – broken May 2008. – FAIL
• A - E reporting on childcare standards & universal pre-school for 4 year olds – election promise – broken June 2009 – FAIL
• ALP Uranium Policy/stance – in tatters. Garrett approves uranium mine. – FAIL
• Diplomacy – Japan – biggest customer – FAIL+++
• India – Uranium contract – FAIL .
• USA – conversations (real/imaginary) released to media. – FAIL
• China, May 2009 – “difficult to deal with” Australia led Asia Pacific Body – thud. – FAIL
• Boost funding for aboriginal Legal Aid – lie – actuality = cuts to funding in first budget. – FAIL
• Scale back Intervention – ignored review recommendations. – FAIL
• Homes /renovations for indigenous – not one shovel lifted to date – FAIL++++
• Digital TV –Conroy, 2008, slash $22m from costs of changeover, original estimate $16m now to cost $66m – FAIL
• Cheaper Better Childcare – Govt regulations will see Childcare costs going up by about $1500pa on July 1, 2010 – FAIL++++++++++
• Internet Filter – FAIL
• Funding Equivalent Hospital Beds – Sorry Kev, can’t sleep in those equivalent Beds – FAIL++++++


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## dutchie (28 May 2010)

Whiskers said:


> On a serious note, I'm sure I heard an old chap on the Sunshine Coast somewhere say he was going to stand as a canditate on the platform of doubling the age pension... at least I think he was serious.




He might have a chance as the way this government is spending money they will be running on the policy of - double the pension age!


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## Logique (28 May 2010)

From the Gillard for PM thread, but just as relevant here:

Gillard for PM? She already is. 

Just look at the policies coming out of the 'politburo'. Class warfare, gender warfare. The politics of envy. Capitalism must be attacked. Borrow heavily to fund the social agenda, and run up the national debt.

Economically, how is that working out for european democratic socialism at the moment. 

Das vydanya, comrade.


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## trainspotter (2 June 2010)

*EPIC FAIL - *In its pitch for office in 2007, Labor vowed to cut $3 billion over four years in what it called "wasteful" spending, including $395m on consultants. Guess what proletarians - Spending is now over 1 billion on external cosultants. The rate of hiring consultants surged after Wayne Swan's first budget last year. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...nsultants-advice/story-e6frgczf-1225796280748

Look at the date November 11th 2009. 470 million per annum or 235 million every six months so therefore 940 million PLUS 235 million = over a billion dollars spent of YOUR MONEY. But but but he promised to reduce this "wasteful" spending.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF minus.


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## sam76 (24 June 2010)

Lasting one term as PM - FAIL

being beaten up by a Ginger _AND _a girl - MEGA FAIL!!!

lol


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## dutchie (24 June 2010)

KRudd blurted out all the things he was proud at his farewell speech.

What were they again......?


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## billGhah (17 July 2010)

Rudd's aspirations in song:

In youtube, search "The Herd Piss Take" 

Funny as, and great clip from Julia at the end


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