# Road incidents



## Happy (17 February 2008)

> From Nine MSN
> Sunday Feb 17 08:54 AEDT
> FAMILY RUN DOWN BY DRUNK TEENAGED DRIVER
> 
> ...





What is more often occurring that not only substance is involved, but:



> vehicle was unregistered and uninsured and the driver was unlicensed




How can you possibly have any form of compensation if driver with no assets is unlicensed, uninsured and vehicle unregistered?


----------



## Pat (17 February 2008)

What a joke! That kid should be castrated so he can't plant his seed. All we need is more people without a brain. Being drunk is not an excuse!


----------



## Julia (17 February 2008)

Happy said:


> What is more often occurring that not only substance is involved, but:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly have any form of compensation if driver with no assets is unlicensed, uninsured and vehicle unregistered?



This is the great advantage of the NZ Accident Compensation Commission.
Everyone pays a levy, much as we do here with Medicare levy, then when there's any sort of accident, medical costs and subsequent compensation are determined by a Board and paid for by the central fund.  The lawyers here don't want it, of course.  Just imagine the fees they would miss out on.


----------



## Judd (17 February 2008)

Happy said:


> How can you possibly have any form of compensation if driver with no assets is unlicensed, uninsured and vehicle unregistered?




Maybe you can sue the Nominal Defendant to gain compensation.  But probably not as the driver/vehicle has been identified.

See link below for NSW

http://www.maa.nsw.gov.au/default.aspx?MenuID=111

I'm pretty sure that there is similar legislation on other states.

Regards


----------



## happyjack (17 February 2008)

The vehicle may well have been insured and registered however it is a condition of both of these systems that the driver  be licensed and sober, It is an automatic thing that if you are unlicensed or drunk then the vehicle is automatically uninsured and unregistered. in fact I think if you are drunk then you may automatically be unlicensed as well. I do hope the police can confiscate the car

There was a time when the juvenile driver would have found himself in the navy, his parents obviously can't control him and he needs discipline, but we don't do that anymore

Happyjack


----------



## sam76 (17 February 2008)

Happy said:


> What is more often occurring that not only substance is involved, but:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly have any form of compensation if driver with no assets is unlicensed, uninsured and vehicle unregistered?





I'm assuming you're refering to the driver being the victim in this instance.

That's usually how the law sees it.

:rolleyes


----------



## Happy (10 April 2008)

> From ABC, 10 Apr. 08
> 
> HOON LAWS ARE WORKING: POLICE COMMISSIONER
> 
> ...





What worries me most is this bit - 



> and was driving without a licence.




In other words, law is far law abiding people.

What are they going to do? They will take his license away, which he did not have in a first place for several years.
If car was stolen, are they going to pancake it, or confiscate it?

What is going to stop him driving without license?
- At least I think I know an answer to this question.


----------



## Happy (20 April 2008)

> From ABC, 20 Apr. 08
> 
> 60PC OF DISQUALIFIED DRIVERS STILL DRIVE: STUDY
> 
> ...




Not all 28,000 don’t know how to drive, but don’t deserve to be on our roads, but proof that as said above, law is only for those who obey it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 April 2008)

Happy said:


> How can you possibly have any form of compensation if driver with no assets is unlicensed, uninsured and vehicle unregistered?



In Tas at least I'm pretty sure the MAIB (Motor Accidents Insurance Board) would pay medical costs, loss of income etc to a third party whether or not the vehicle that caused it was registered and the driver licensed. But if no rego then they won't pay for the driver / owner's injuries. That's my understanding at least.


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

Highly unlikely we've heard the end of this one yet..
The bloke screeches to a halt in front of numerous cyclists (including Olympians training) - who crash into him.  
Allegedly someone calls out to him to stay because so many are hurt and the cops have been called.
He takes off - leaves the scene of a crime/accident/ whatever - allegedly he and his mate think its funny. 
Someone has the sense to copy his number plate..
Now he's being "interviewed".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/09/2240072.htm


> Kersten in on-air clash with 'goose' driver
> Posted Fri May 9, 2008 12:00pm AEST
> Updated Fri May 9, 2008 12:24pm AEST
> 
> ...




so his car stalls - and he has to screech to a halt?  (at least) half in their lane?  then takes off from scene?  -  sounds like a smartass conman to me 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/09/2239961.htm


> Police continue cyclists crash investigation
> Posted Fri May 9, 2008 10:41am AEST
> 
> Kersten says the crash has temporarily affected his training for the Olympics.
> ...


----------



## tigerboi (10 May 2008)

Dont forget 2020 he aint been charged after being interviewed by the police,not being there its hard to comment as we did not see what happened.

Now myself being a b-double driver try to give cyclists as much room as i can as when i pass them im always worried about them getting sucked in between my trailers,saturday morning is when they hit the roads in big numbers so i try to get back to the yard early to avoid the traffic.

2 things cyclists must do.stay 2 abreast in the fog line & get some brighter clothing & night lights.i dont really worry about them not paying rego etc,they must stay off the road away from the big bangers...tb


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

tigerboi said:


> Dont forget 2020 he aint been charged after being interviewed by the police,not being there its hard to comment as we did not see what happened.




True , but it sounds like there's 50 witnesses to say his version is total fabrication  - possible class action etc  

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/cyclists-dispute-drivers-account/2008/05/09/1210131264145.html



> Huss was driving his sedan along Southern Cross Drive at 6.45am on Thursday when he encountered a large group of cyclists returning from a training ride.
> 
> The speed limit for vehicles was 80kmh and Huss was obliged to slow. "I've got in front of, overtaken all of the cyclists, and while I'm sort of in the middle lane … another car in front of me, he has slowed down. I've accelerated to get into the left lane - and I just got a car two days that is a gas and petrol thing - and it backfired, the airbox popped."
> 
> ...


----------



## Happy (27 May 2008)

> From ABC, 27 May. 08
> 
> TEEN SPEEDER AVOID JAIL OVER FATAL
> 
> ...





Maybe brain injured, maybe just got “good advice”.

Hope they keep an eye on him and possible miraculous recovery later on.


----------



## tigerboi (27 May 2008)

*Re:BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*




2020hindsight said:


> True , but it sounds like there's 50 witnesses to say his version is total fabrication - possible class action etc




"Sounds like" doesnt mean proof...just remember hes only been charged with leaving the scene of an accident...

bike riders are a very big hazard to all drivers,if it wasnt a dedicated bike lane then they shouldnt be riding on that road...

the breakdown lane is not for bikes unless stated,southern cross drive in morning peak hour...brain dead action......tb


----------



## Happy (27 May 2008)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



tigerboi said:


> ..brain dead action......tb






 When I am on the road on my pushbike I am mindful of cars and I never execute my right to be on the road and take good part of whole lane.

It is probably because as car driver I see how it looks from the other side of windscreen.

I have a lot of bad memories how pushbike riders behave on the road; sometimes I think they are deliberately taking whole lane just because they can, not to mention that traffic lights don’t apply to many of them.


----------



## tigerboi (27 May 2008)

*Re:WANNABE OLMYPIAN RIDERS CAUSE ACCIDENTS*



tigerboi said:


> Dont forget 2020 he aint been charged after being interviewed by the police,not being there its hard to comment as we did not see what happened.
> 
> Now myself being a b-double driver try to give cyclists as much room as i can as when i pass them im always worried about them getting sucked in between my trailers,saturday morning is when they hit the roads in big numbers so i try to get back to the yard early to avoid the traffic.
> 
> 2 things cyclists must do.stay 2 abreast in the fog line & get some brighter clothing & night lights.i dont really worry about them not paying rego etc,they must stay off the road away from the big bangers...tb




Heres what i said before..

You got 2 types of bike riders,the pusbiker who rides his bike & the you got the pros in this accident,who think they can ride 3 abreast in peak hour taking up a lane.....not on,it is these riders you will find that are getting run over more than the guy who goes for a pedal...

it dont matter if you are a wannabe olympian,sydney peak hour is not the place...let me tell you,these riders cause alot of prangs when you have to use the next lane(sorry car in that lane wannabees need this lane..!)tb


----------



## Happy (23 January 2009)

> From ABC, 22 Jan. 09
> CHASED DRIVER 'WAS DISQUALIFIED UNTIL 2058'
> 
> Police in New South Wales say a man they chased from the Hawkesbury to the Hunter Valley overnight had already been disqualified from driving for the next 49 years.
> ...





There are more and more incident when there is driver without license often in unregistered and uninsured car and we (legal system) seem to be out of our wits what to do with it.

I see it this way if somebody cannot obey our law we lock him or her up so they cannot break it.

Fair and simple and of course the usual - work in locker to pay for their keep.
And no tax payer funded sex change while there either.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



			
				tigerboi;297499bike riders are a very big hazard to all drivers said:
			
		

> if it wasnt a dedicated bike lane then they shouldnt be riding on that road[/B]...



Correct that they shouldn't be riding in a breakdown lane. But if there's no bike lane then the proper place for them to be riding is to take up one complete traffic lane. Those behind need to either travel at the same speed as the bike or overtake safely in another lane just as they would overtake a car or other vehicle. If they can not overtake safely then don't overtake.

I can follow the argument about cyclists not paying rego etc but I must point out that much the same applies to SUV's etc as well. They're paying rego, but they're not paying twice as much as a small car despite taking up twice as much space on the road etc. So cyclists aren't the only ones getting a subsidy.


----------



## Happy (24 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



Smurf1976 said:


> I can follow the argument about cyclists not paying rego etc but I must point out that much the same applies to SUV's etc as well. They're paying rego, but they're not paying twice as much as a small car despite taking up twice as much space on the road etc. So cyclists aren't the only ones getting a subsidy.





While I agree with you, I think the real problem is not subsidy but the speed.

Bikes are pushing it to keep 50 k/hour and if there is one lane, big traffic, drivers have no room to pass safely, they start to speculate – shouldn’t bikes be more courteous and give away their right to clog the full lane.

I have always more time than I need to reach the destination as I give myself bit of margin of safety for traffic, some road obstructions and even time to stop and answer call of nature if I have to.

But many drivers have no luxury or foresight to do it this way and being always too late additional -unfair obstacle- in their opinion makes them aggressive to the point of taking excessive risk, injuring or effectively murdering pushbike rider/s.

I personally as push bike rider never execute my right of lane hogging, just cannot bring myself to do it.


----------



## tigerboi (24 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



tigerboi said:


> Dont forget 2020 he aint been charged after being interviewed by the police,not being there its hard to comment as we did not see what happened.
> 
> Now myself being a b-double driver try to give cyclists as much room as i can as when i pass them im always worried about them getting sucked in between my trailers,saturday morning is when they hit the roads in big numbers so i try to get back to the yard early to avoid the traffic.
> 
> 2 things cyclists must do.stay 2 abreast in the fog line & get some brighter clothing & night lights.i dont really worry about them not paying rego etc,they must stay off the road away from the big bangers...tb






Smurf1976 said:


> Correct that they shouldn't be riding in a breakdown lane. But if there's no bike lane then the proper place for them to be riding is to take up one complete traffic lane. Those behind need to either travel at the same speed as the bike or overtake safely in another lane just as they would overtake a car or other vehicle. If they can not overtake safely then don't overtake.
> 
> I can follow the argument about cyclists not paying rego etc but I must point out that much the same applies to SUV's etc as well. They're paying rego, but they're not paying twice as much as a small car despite taking up twice as much space on the road etc. So cyclists aren't the only ones getting a subsidy.




as i pointed out previously bike riders are dangerous especially on a saturday morning...today 1 rider killed on the m4...

where do you get the idea that bike riders are allowed to take up one lane & cause absolute chaos to traffic???

bike riders do not have the right to disrupt the other drivers...

like i said happened...bike riders out on saturday mornings thinking they are allowed to take up a lane...bang

got no problem sharing the road as a professional driver however cars & trucks have priority...

bike riders be told...metro highways are not training grounds...tb


----------



## GreatPig (24 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



tigerboi said:


> where do you get the idea that bike riders are allowed to take up one lane



For most Australian road rules, bicycle and cars are treated the same.

The only rules relating to this specifically for bicycle (and motorcycle) riders are that they must not ride more than two abreast, unless overtaking, and when riding two abreast, must not be more than 1.5 metres apart (rule 151 - this link is to the NSW road rules, but the same Australian road rule is identical).

Two riders riding 1.5 metres apart would essentially take up a whole lane.

GP


----------



## johenmo (25 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



tigerboi said:


> as i pointed out previously bike riders are dangerous especially on a saturday morning
> 
> like i said happened...bike riders out on saturday mornings thinking they are allowed to take up a lane...bang
> 
> got no problem sharing the road as a professional driver however cars & trucks have priority...




*So true*.  Live in Ballarat n cycling is big here BUT they ride in "packs", 3 or 4 abreast on the main roads (70 or 80 speed limits) and traffic is slowed to the 20/30 km/hr.  Overall the behaviour is arrogant.

When I was at primary school, the exercise books had cyclist pictures on the back n said *ride single file*.

Yes, they have right to ride on the road.
No, they don't have the right to slow the traffic.
If the police didn't have bigger issues, I'd love for them to get nailed and fined for something.

And when I see them on ring road, with a freakin' bike/walk path on the side of the road (where I ride to work) and traffic slowing to try get past each other because they are in the lane and not keeping to the side, I am amazed at the arrogance.

Gee, thinking about it is really starting to P*** me off!  Time for a soothing cuppa.

Hey! There's a thread on ASF about what to ban.  How about cycling?
.  Will let some comedian do apiece about furtive cyclists riding in desolate places in the midst of night.  Give the boy racers a run for their money? LOL


----------



## MrBurns (25 January 2009)

If you ride a bike on a public road these days you're an idiot, it's dangerous enough in a car.


----------



## Julia (25 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you ride a bike on a public road these days you're an idiot, it's dangerous enough in a car.



Agree.   Where I live there is a great bikeway running nearly 20kms along the seafront.   Never see the lycra clad cyclists on this - they're always on the road which is very busy.


----------



## dutchie (25 January 2009)

Spot on Mr Burns.

Bicycle and motorbike riders are an accident waiting to happen.

Cheers


----------



## MrBurns (25 January 2009)

dutchie said:


> Spot on Mr Burns.
> 
> Bicycle and motorbike riders are an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> Cheers




Yes and the both say we should look out for them, in all seriousness, it's not my life on the line. 
They're just looking for trouble. 
I almost never see a motorbike when on the road they're all over the place passing inside, speeding all the time, in your blind spot and so on.
Get lost I say and if I hit you you better hope my car doesnt get scratched.


----------



## gav (25 January 2009)

I had to slam on the breaks at St Kilda Road today, friggen cyclist ran a VERY red light and I almost took him out.  A lot of them think they can do what they want, its not like a traffic camera will get their number plate 

What's worse is I personally know how quickly life can change for a cyclist. My Dad was a cyclist, just riding on country roads.  After being hit my a hoon, he had to sell the farm, has a 30cm steel rod in his back for the rest of his life (and nearly died on operating table), spends majority of the day in bed or doing rehab and on painkillers, huge stress on marriage, fighting the TAC, while the guy who hit him lost his licence for a pathetic 3 months.  Australia Day 2009 will mark the 2yr anniversary of the tragedy. Most ppl say he's lucky to be alive, but he doesn't see it that way...

I know there are good and bad cyclists, good and bad drivers... But to any cyclist who reads this, remember - its YOUR life that will be changed forever if something goes wrong


----------



## MrBurns (25 January 2009)

gav said:


> I had to slam on the breaks at St Kilda Road today, friggen cyclist ran a VERY red light and I almost took him out.  A lot of them think they can do what they want, its not like a traffic camera will get their number plate
> 
> What's worse is I personally know how quickly life can change for a cyclist. My Dad was a cyclist, just riding on country roads.  After being hit my a hoon, he had to sell the farm, has a 30cm steel rod in his back for the rest of his life (and nearly died on operating table), spends majority of the day in bed or doing rehab and on painkillers, huge stress on marriage, fighting the TAC, while the guy who hit him lost his licence for a pathetic 3 months.  Australia Day 2009 will mark the 2yr anniversary of the tragedy. Most ppl say he's lucky to be alive, but he doesn't see it that way...
> 
> I know there are good and bad cyclists, good and bad drivers... But to any cyclist who reads this, remember - its YOUR life that will be changed forever if something goes wrong




Wel said, I hope things improve for you from here on.


----------



## tigerboi (26 January 2009)

*Re: BIKE RIDERS IN PEAK HOUR BREAKDOWN LANE*



GreatPig said:


> For most Australian road rules, bicycle and cars are treated the same.
> 
> The only rules relating to this specifically for bicycle (and motorcycle) riders are that they must not ride more than two abreast, unless overtaking, and when riding two abreast, must not be more than 1.5 metres apart (rule 151 - this link is to the NSW road rules, but the same Australian road rule is identical).
> 
> ...




just so you know...the rider was hit by a truck on the m7 which has a cycle way...truck driver has not been charged...

got no probs as a professional driver sharing the road...when traffic permits it,but you are not allowed to disrupt traffic by riding 3 abreast...

dont forget we have got 1m more cars on the road in sydney in the last 25 years which means peak hour is constant...

imo riders are taking a big gamble...tb


----------



## Sean K (26 January 2009)

Cyclists shouldn't be on the road and don't have the same rights?


----------



## numbercruncher (26 January 2009)

My pager just went off MVA with entrapment  - take it easy on the roads folks, plenty of temporary Australians out and about ...


----------



## GumbyLearner (26 January 2009)

Hahahaha 

Qld cop booked for speeding while Commissioner Bob is sitting in the front seat of the car.

“As a service, we are constantly asking drivers to obey the road rules and pay attention to the road conditions,” Mr Atkinson said. 

“This incident does not diminish the importance of that message. 

“As police officers who enforce the road rules, we are put under much greater scrutiny than the general public about such matters, which is why we have informed the media about this matter.” 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24964904-2702,00.html

I wonder if they can retrospectively book the likes of Terry Lewis for the bad **** he was involved in.

Scrutiny!!! you mean like the Fitzgerald enquiry.  Welcome to Dodge Vegas!


----------



## Happy (22 March 2010)

> Fatal collision driver 'crashed car last year'
> 05:30 AEST Mon Mar 22 2010
> 
> The unlicensed driver who killed a family of three in Canberra at the weekend had been in a coma only 10 months ago after crashing another stolen car.
> ...






I just cannot agree with Police being blamed for tragic death of 3 innocent persons following the pursuit that reportedly was even called off.

This blame should be solely on driver that did not stop on Police request.

Why don’t silly people go further and blame car manufacturer or petrol station or RTA for building road where this tragedy happened?

In this twisted logic they are all to blame!


If they did what I propose to keep unlicensed criminals in locker this would not happen either!

Remote immobilisers or at least speed limiters would be great tool too.


----------



## JimBob (22 March 2010)

There has been quite a bit of talk on the local radio about police pursuits this morning.  In QLD, they said that the penalty for driving off on police is the equivalent of a $200 fine.  If there is more of a deterant, like a 2 year minimum jail sentence for driving on police leading to a pursuit, it might discourage people from trying their luck.  This guy would have been locked away too.

It is a tough call, but I dont think you can just let criminals be able to drive off without police following.


----------



## todster (22 March 2010)

Happy said:


> I just cannot agree with Police being blamed for tragic death of 3 innocent persons following the pursuit that reportedly was even called off.
> 
> This blame should be solely on driver that did not stop on Police request.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bushman (22 March 2010)

todster said:


> Happy said:
> 
> 
> > Why are the police hellbent on catching someone in a stolen $1000 car?
> ...


----------



## WaveSurfer (22 March 2010)

Happy said:


> ....This blame should be solely on driver that did not stop on Police request.....




Couldn't agree more. 



> Ms Webbe’s mother Debbie yesterday said she was angry at authorities.
> 
> "I'm devastated — I want the police to pay for what has happened," she was quoted as saying.




You have got to be kidding me. Your kid should not have been in the stolen car in the first place Debbie. Blame everyone but yourself hey... :nosympath

My heart goes out to the victims families.


----------



## Whiskers (22 March 2010)

Bushman said:


> todster said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly my thoughts. In this case, the cost to society of trying to recover a beat up Mazda 626 has been the cost of four lives, including three innocent parties.
> ...


----------



## roland (22 March 2010)

At the very least, it would make sense to have all the traffic signals in the chase area to be turned to red - along with the pedestrian signals. Better than no warning at all, and with a little public education people would immedialtely know that something was going on.


----------



## Bushman (22 March 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Bushman said:
> 
> 
> > In any case it's a tough call for the police to know the driver of a speeding stolen car at night. I'd say 99% of drivers pull up when the police sound the siron or persue.
> ...


----------



## Tink (22 March 2010)

Happy said:


> This blame should be solely on driver that did not stop on Police request.




Yep I agree


----------



## DocK (22 March 2010)

Bushman said:


> Whiskers said:
> 
> 
> > Definitely not blaming the police. They have a very tough job to do and need to make split second judgements that can have strong consequences. In this instance, the officers involved were simply following their protocols. Thus it is more a case for the legislators.
> ...


----------



## Bolle (22 March 2010)

I favour pursuit... Plus, you never know what else might be going on in the car - sometimes a driver takes off, turns out they have 20kg of heroin in the car, or two teenage girls tweaked out on GHB, or some terrified little kid, or unlicensed firearms... i hate when people drive like maniacs, i really wish there were much larger penalties for it.  It's so dangerous, and almost always an example of willful, wanton destruction and disregard for the lives and property of others.

But then, i'm also in favour of the death penalty.  I really do think some people just abuse the life that has been given them.

Mind you, i don't mind cyclists on the roads.  Yeah it's a hassle and it slows me down sometimes (very rarely), but i do wish there were more bikes than cars - the air would be so much nicer to breathe.  I've seen what happens when a cyclist gets hit by a car (not pretty), but motorbike accidents are far worse.  I like bicycles, but i'm not a fan of the moronic motorcyclists that weave in and out of traffic, invisible to most drivers, dipping in and out of the line of vision, undertaking in the parking lanes... so stupid.  It's like natural selection waiting to happen...


----------



## dutchie (22 March 2010)

Know it would never happen but I would like to see drivers who run away from police and are chased by them charged:
1. If driver kills someone -premeditated murder
2. If driver does not kill anyone - potential premeditated murder (half the sentence of a premeditated murder conviction)


----------



## awg (22 March 2010)

IMO, Police would not give serious consideration to abandoning chases, for the simple reason that it would send a completely untenable message to criminals.

That is, do your crime, and speed off in a stolen car.

Do any other countries have a "no pursuit" strategy?


----------



## Boyou (22 March 2010)

awg said:


> IMO, Police would not give serious consideration to abandoning chases, for the simple reason that it would send a completely untenable message to criminals.
> 
> That is, do your crime, and speed off in a stolen car.
> 
> Do any other countries have a "no pursuit" strategy?




Entirely agree with this sentiment.If police had a policy of non pursuit the consequences would be far worse than they have been up to now.

A free for all would most probably ensue...not just for criminals leaving the scene of a crime ,but for all the car hoons out there who take malicious pleasure in disrupting traffic on our streets

Time to ask ourselves this simple question..if my loved ones were in the carnage caused by this most recent example.What would I want the legislators to do about it? 

Time to bring back the death penalty...a speeding car is potentially more lethal than a speeding bullet.If there is a live body to be hanged ..hang them high  

Cant beleive how this issue has stirred my emotions! ..must be a reaction to grief..


----------



## WaveSurfer (22 March 2010)

Boyou said:


> Entirely agree with this sentiment.If police had a policy of non pursuit the consequences would be far worse than they have been up to now.
> 
> A free for all would most probably ensue...not just for criminals leaving the scene of a crime ,but for all the car hoons out there who take malicious pleasure in disrupting traffic on our streets
> 
> ...




Agreed, agreed and agreed.

My brother, his wife and young child live in Canberra. You can imagine how quickly I jumped on the phone when I heard the news brief "Young couple and infant killed 200m from home by stolen car in Canberra". The actual suburb was mentioned and it is where they live.

The passenger is as much to blame as the driver. She had the choice not to get in the car in the first place.... Just as responsible IMO. 

Hang 'em' and hang 'em' high. Good one.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/canberra-crash-death-mother-blames-police-20100322-qpo2.html



> "I can see he's done wrong but (stealing a car is) a petty little crime," she told Radio 3AW.






Boyou said:


> a speeding car is potentially more lethal than a speeding bullet




It's safe to say that a car doing 200km/hr is waaaaaaay more lethal.




> "Yes, Justin may have a little bit to do with it but ... you know."




Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.   :swear:


----------



## newbie trader (22 March 2010)

Did anyone watch the 7pm report tonight and see them interview the civil libertarian lawyer? Anyone agree or disagree with his views?

N.T


----------



## Boyou (22 March 2010)

What report was that? 

7PM? ..could have been the ABC news or SBS. 

Details ,please


----------



## newbie trader (22 March 2010)

Boyou said:


> What report was that?
> 
> 7PM? ..could have been the ABC news or SBS.
> 
> Details ,please




Its a less newsworthy show on channel 10, but the interview was quite good. 

N.T


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Its a less newsworthy show on channel 10, but the interview was quite good.
> 
> N.T




What was the general jist of what the bloke was talking about N.T. ?


----------



## Boyou (22 March 2010)

Thanks N T

I avoid the commercial news ..


----------



## moXJO (22 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Did anyone watch the 7pm report tonight and see them interview the civil libertarian lawyer? Anyone agree or disagree with his views?
> 
> N.T




Yes I wanted to vomit. 
I think a lot of aussies are over the kid gloves used on offenders. We have hundreds of police pursuits around the country and this one unfortunately did not end well. But to call an end to police pursuits . IMO it's time to start putting the blame back on offenders and their family. If you break the law and it all goes to hell you are not a victim.


----------



## Boyou (22 March 2010)

Well put moXJO

"If you break the law and it all goes to hell you are not a victim"

You are ,of course,a perpetrator .I did not see the 10 news report ,but ,judging from your comments ..I get the gist of it ..

This issue will not be dealt with by the likes of Civil libertarian lawyers..they have a vested interest in maintaining their stance vis a vis "victims".There are no gray areas here...

Speeders must be stopped! They Kill good people...........


----------



## newbie trader (22 March 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> What was the general jist of what the bloke was talking about N.T. ?




I think he was generally contending that high speed Police chases should only occur when "it is a matter of life and death" and that Police know at the time whether it is a hostage situation etc etc...Although when asked what the Police can do instead he tried to dodge the question by again saying "only if it is a matter of life and death"...the panel (for what its worth) seemed to think that a mixture of education and technology was needed in respect to drivers, so it did not really answer the question of what the police can do instead of engauging in high speed pursuits. I would not say that it is the polices' fault by any means they are just doing their job and working within rather limited constraints...I think moXJO's remarks are spot on.

N.T


----------



## Boyou (23 March 2010)

Thanks for the expo on the actual report,N T

IMO ..the issue is one of clarity.We all NEED TO KNOW..

The police need to know the black and white of the issue.(So they can make the split second decisions required when there is no time for indecision)
.AND... the speeders need to know the outcomes of their actions.I have expressed my opinion on that already..
The community ,as a whole need to know they have some safety on the road...that's you and me ,mate .and your mum ,dad ,sister brother ,lover ,wife..


----------



## newbie trader (23 March 2010)

Boyou said:


> Thanks for the expo on the actual report,N T
> 
> IMO ..the issue is one of clarity.We all NEED TO KNOW..
> 
> ...




I wonder if the system the Americans use in high speed chases is somewhat the same as ours, if not then how efficient it is...

N.T


----------



## drsmith (23 March 2010)

What's the penalty for refusing to blow in the bag ?

Perhaps it should be the same in relation to refusing police request to stop.


----------



## Tink (23 March 2010)

drsmith said:


> What's the penalty for refusing to blow in the bag ?
> 
> Perhaps it should be the same in relation to refusing police request to stop.




Yep, what is the penalty?

I am glad I didnt watch the show as just reading the news reports is enough to get annoyed with that mother

Stealing cars is a minor crime?

How about stealing for a second time and driving at 200ks

When is enough?

I am all for the police as I have said before - they have my vote


----------



## moXJO (23 March 2010)

drsmith said:


> What's the penalty for refusing to blow in the bag ?
> 
> Perhaps it should be the same in relation to refusing police request to stop.




Heard someone on the radio say it was $200 if you drive off on police, not sure how accurate that is though. If that is the figure, then it's not much off a deterrent.


----------



## Happy (23 March 2010)

moXJO said:


> Heard someone on the radio say it was *$200 *if you drive off on police, not sure how accurate that is though. If that is the figure, then it's not much off a deterrent.




Wander what is it in real terms payment, when offender is unemployed ?

Also, we have 10 or is it now 20 fold increase in unlicensed drivers driving, stolen or uninsured and/or unregistered cars.
What are we doing about that?
(Law and order is for people who comply, blatant multi-repeat offenders should be locked up so physically cannot re-offend)

While ago I saw report (cannot find it now), that one drink driver will not have his license back until is 135 years old.
And he is caught driving drunk quite often, suppose if Police kept an eye on him they could just attend his antics and nothing else.


----------



## newbie trader (23 March 2010)

drsmith said:


> What's the penalty for refusing to blow in the bag ?
> 
> Perhaps it should be the same in relation to refusing police request to stop.




I thought you are able to refuse to blow into it but then the police have the power to take you into the station?

N.T


----------



## drsmith (23 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> I thought you are able to refuse to blow into it but then the police have the power to take you into the station?
> 
> N.T




Found this for South Australia. Not sure how up to date it is.

http://lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch10s08s03s08.php



> Refuse Breath Test: [Road Traffic Act 1961 s 47E]
> 
> First Offence
> 
> ...




What proportion of chases involve vehicles which are driven by the owner/associates of the owner (not stolen) ?

Surely technology can play a role to catch up with the driver later. In WA for example you no longer get a windscreen sticker for registration.


----------



## Happy (23 March 2010)

From post #63 above: 



> Subsequent Offence
> 
> $1500-$2500; automatic licence disqualification of not less than 3 years; plus 6 demerit points





Bit silly as points re-set in 2 years time if I remember it correctly, but not the worst piece of legislation I’ve seen.
(Unless there is clause that demerit points apply after person comes out of jail as welcome back to real world)


----------



## drsmith (23 March 2010)

It might be a more effective deterrent than a $200 fine.


----------



## $20shoes (23 March 2010)

I once worked for a small company in Adelaide who manufactured a car alarm that would disable your engine remotely. It did this in a very safe manner – cycling the ignition on and off for about 1 minute and with ever increasing delays between the “off” period and “on” period. This gave the driver time to safely maneouver/stop the car before it was completely disabled. For the fist 20secs it feels like your car wants to stall. The alarm was hooked into the pager network, so was effective in the wider metropolitan area.  It was a big hit in South Africa where they were targeting a car-jacking problem. I always thought how effective this would be if these alarms were compulsory and police had powers to disable the car if and only when a pursuit was underway.  Too costly to implement and liberty issues….I know…. But still, the technology is there….


----------



## Whiskers (23 March 2010)

I like that idea $20shoes.

How was it wired to the car and could a thief easily deactivate it?


----------



## Buckfont (23 March 2010)

In the U.S.A, when you`re driving through areas where there are roadworks being preformed there is always,

1) a speed limit, usually 15-20mph.

2) Very large signs indicating that, if any roadworker is injured in whatever way,

    There is a minimum $25000.00 fine and/or 3 years imprisonment.

No speeding in the those areas because they all know too well that the law means business.

Wouldnt think it would be too difficult to implement here.

 Oh sorry, I forgot about the civil libertarians and the the likes of Skye Webbe`s mother.


----------



## $20shoes (23 March 2010)

Whiskers said:


> I like that idea $20shoes.
> 
> How was it wired to the car and could a thief easily deactivate it?




It was wired in such a way that it was difficult to disengage the alarm altogether without also disabling the car. But I'm sure, given enough time and expertise, thieves might find ways to bypass it. 
It was an interesting idea that's for sure. But there would be considerable obstacles in trying to mandate this for all new vehicles.


----------



## Happy (23 March 2010)

$20shoes said:


> I once worked for a small company in Adelaide who manufactured a car alarm that would disable your engine remotely. It did this in a very safe manner – cycling the ignition on and off for about 1 minute and with ever increasing delays between the “off” period and “on” period. This gave the driver time to safely maneouver/stop the car before it was completely disabled. For the fist 20secs it feels like your car wants to stall. The alarm was hooked into the pager network, so was effective in the wider metropolitan area.





Often we hear people say:
*If it saves one life it is worth it.*

Unfortunately groups opposed to it claim that loss of power can cost lives too.
Of course there can be instances that somebody might be killed when instead of driving 200k an hour will slow down for 20 seconds, but I would take the risk if I could make that decision.

Looks like another great issue for referendum!


----------



## drsmith (23 March 2010)

If you thought driving and using a mobile phone at the same time was bad, check out the Sky News Perth thunderstorm video.

http://player.video.news.com.au/theaustralian/#_IO6vOxUX6_e0ApzKA7kJWb_NEZBFYId

At about 30 seconds a reporter is doing a recorded interview from inside a car while driving down a freeway at the height of the storm. She even looks over her shoulder towards the camera in the back seat.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 March 2010)

Buckfont said:


> In the U.S.A, when you`re driving through areas where there are roadworks being preformed there is always,
> 
> 1) a speed limit, usually 15-20mph.
> 
> ...



My experience working on roads was always that speed limits, generally 40 km/h, were routinely ignored by the vast majority of motorists.

Best way to stop them seems to be to deliberately create a situation that will make them slow down. Just throw some gravel on the open part of the road, leave a hose lying across it etc. Mud works really well - those with the "hot" cars don't seem to like getting them dirty and hence slow down.

Alternatively, a call to Police requesting a speed camera be set up is effective. Likewise a road worker standing beside the road armed with an ordinary camera and a notebook - most don't realise that Police generally will act on reports of law breaking drivers from roadworks crews and the official proceedure, as per the law, is to take note of all offending vehicles.

The law is the law and there's a damn good reason why those working on the roads don't want trucks especially (yes truck drivers certainly are massive offenders on this one and they're the ones that scare the **** out of the workers for obvious reasons) hurtling through worksites at such speed as to have no chance of stopping safely. 

Car drivers aren't much better, nor are cyclists disobeying directions (and directly placing themselves in serious danger as a result when they end up in the middle of a worksite in the blind spot of machinery operators etc). Bus drivers at least tend to slow down, even if they do run over cones and signs rather a lot. Worst of all though are those who drive onto a road that is actually closed, and then have the nerve to make legal threats and abuse workers when their car is damaged - worth noting that not once did I ever hear of them getting a payment (and I'm aware of one situation where insurance wouldn't pay either).

Personally, I see no reason not to put a speed camera in every worksite. It's clearly a situation where it might actually save a life.


----------



## newbie trader (23 March 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> My experience working on roads was always that speed limits, generally 40 km/h, were routinely ignored by the vast majority of motorists.
> 
> Best way to stop them seems to be to deliberately create a situation that will make them slow down. Just throw some gravel on the open part of the road, leave a hose lying across it etc. Mud works really well - those with the "hot" cars don't seem to like getting them dirty and hence slow down.
> 
> ...





A lot of roadworks I have noticed now have a police car just sitting there with its lights flashing, which i'd say would slow down the traffic, its quite a good idea.

The last week or so ive noticed 2 or 3 incidents of pretty bad road rage (seems to be becoming more common). Has anyone else noticed this? Australian drivers are very impatient (ute drivers seem to abide by their own road rules and etiquette), i've driven around both Thailand (for 5 weeks) and Cambodia (1 week) where there are basically no road rules and yet everyone is so patient and well manered on the roads.

N.T


----------



## Happy (24 March 2010)

I always have cars really close intimidating me to go faster in road works zone.

Whenever I can, I pull over to let them through.

Often it rewards me with Police trap further down the road giving me instant gratification.


----------



## jancha (24 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> A lot of roadworks I have noticed now have a police car just sitting there with its lights flashing, which i'd say would slow down the traffic, its quite a good idea.
> 
> The last week or so ive noticed 2 or 3 incidents of pretty bad road rage (seems to be becoming more common). Has anyone else noticed this? Australian drivers are very impatient (ute drivers seem to abide by their own road rules and etiquette), i've driven around both Thailand (for 5 weeks) and Cambodia (1 week) where there are basically no road rules and yet everyone is so patient and well manered on the roads.
> 
> N.T




I noticed the same in Bali.
 They have no road rules other than the small give way to the big and if you're a visitor in an accident it's your fault because you shouldn't be there.
I think the reason why they're so patient is because the public doesn't tolerate violence or bad manners and it's frowned upon.
I reckon that if all bad drivers took a few weeks of driving over there they're come back reformed. ( That's only if they survived it)


----------



## WaveSurfer (24 March 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> ....The law is the law and there's a damn good reason why those working on the roads don't want trucks especially (yes truck drivers certainly are massive offenders on this one and they're the ones that scare the **** out of the workers for obvious reasons) hurtling through worksites at such speed as to have no chance of stopping safely.....




I remember reading this about a year ago:

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2009/03/03/truck-driver-court-roadworks-deaths/
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2009/01/16/sunshine-coast-road-madness-three-killed/

Not only are the road workers at risk, so are other motorists abiding by the rules!


----------



## WaveSurfer (24 March 2010)

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I was actually up there the previous day and went through the exact same works. There was AMPLE signing for km's before you had to stop.


----------



## Happy (24 March 2010)

What I don’t like is road works left with the same speed limit over public holidays or weekends.

Sure, there is some danger as sometimes not all lanes are available for traffic, but without machinery being used and road workers not there, 40 k limit is bit rich.

And I treat it as insult to my intelligence, I complained numerous times about it but have no idea if any of my comments were taken seriously. 

But remember in Tasmania that on weekend speed limit was higher than during road works during the week, so motorists are not treated with contempt in every State.


----------



## newbie trader (24 March 2010)

WaveSurfer said:


> Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I was actually up there the previous day and went through the exact same works. There was AMPLE signing for km's before you had to stop.




I was driving along the logan motorway between probably 10pm and 1am (picking my sister up from a party) and there were significant roadworks going on. It was very frustrating as there were police cars booking people for speeding even though they were sitting before any signage indicating that there were roadworks ahead and that you needed to slow down (roadworks were around a bend in the highway and hence no one could see them). I'm just lucky that I saw the flashing lights on the police car ahead of time and slowed down immediatley like many other drivers in front and behind me (they were in the process of booking people anyway). I'm not sure whether the police were at fault or the workers forgot to place the appropriate signs. It was, however, fine coming the opposite way as there were signs indicating the change in speed and then police cars beyond that.

(No I did not miss any of the signs).

N.T


----------



## newbie trader (24 March 2010)

Happy said:


> What I don’t like is road works left with the same speed limit over public holidays or weekends.
> 
> Sure, there is some danger as sometimes not all lanes are available for traffic, but without machinery being used and road workers not there, 40 k limit is bit rich.
> 
> ...




Maybe Kevin's holding that one up his sleeve as another election promise for further down the track!

N.T


----------



## drsmith (24 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> (No I did not miss any of the signs).
> 
> N.T



Are you sure ?

Either that or the police were booking those for driving over the normal speed limit.


----------



## Buckfont (24 March 2010)

WaveSurfer said:


> I remember reading this about a year ago:
> 
> http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2009/03/03/truck-driver-court-roadworks-deaths/
> http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2009/01/16/sunshine-coast-road-madness-three-killed/
> ...




Well WaveSurfer, if that bloke on the Sunshine Coast as I said, had have been in the states, He would be in the clink by now.

I get really infuriated when I attempt to obey the road rules an in turn get expletives, middle fingers and tailgating. Touching the brakes to get them to back off only inflames the situation.

The court system has a lot to answer. But thats a whole new can of worms in itself.


----------



## WaveSurfer (24 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> I was driving along the logan motorway between probably 10pm and 1am (picking my sister up from a party) and there were significant roadworks going on. It was very frustrating as there were police cars booking people for speeding even though they were sitting before any signage indicating that there were roadworks ahead and that you needed to slow down (roadworks were around a bend in the highway and hence no one could see them). I'm just lucky that I saw the flashing lights on the police car ahead of time and slowed down immediatley like many other drivers in front and behind me (they were in the process of booking people anyway). I'm not sure whether the police were at fault or the workers forgot to place the appropriate signs. It was, however, fine coming the opposite way as there were signs indicating the change in speed and then police cars beyond that.
> 
> (No I did not miss any of the signs).
> 
> N.T




Don't know what it is about that area mate, but I was booked for speeding because of poor signing on the same motorway. Out of the blue comes a 40km/hr sign from a 100km/hr zone. I was like What The and instantly took the foot off the gas looking where the roadworks crew were.

Next thing I have the blue flashers up my behind (literally seconds from when I first saw the sign). I argued and argued that you can't expect someone to safely go from 100km/hr to 40km/hr in the time I had. I was pointing to the sign saying you have to be kidden me look at where we are now mate!!! Probably abt 300m-400m back.

Long story short, he did me for 10km over the limit instead of 40. But yeah, I wasn't a happy chappy. lol

My only speeding fine in the last 11 years.

I find out later that they must by law decrement the speed from 100 to 80 to 60 then to 40


----------



## WaveSurfer (24 March 2010)

Buckfont said:


> ....I get really infuriated when I attempt to obey the road rules an in turn get expletives, middle fingers and tailgating. Touching the brakes to get them to back off only inflames the situation....




I hear ya there mate. I just keep slowing down ever so slightly without touching the brakes. A flick of the windscreen washers I found helps a lot of the time 

Just look oblivious to the fact when they fly past with the birdie out the window.

Oh sorry, didn't see you there. lol


----------



## newbie trader (24 March 2010)

WaveSurfer said:


> Don't know what it is about that area mate, but I was booked for speeding because of poor signing on the same motorway. Out of the blue comes a 40km/hr sign from a 100km/hr zone. I was like What The and instantly took the foot off the gas looking where the roadworks crew were.
> 
> Next thing I have the blue flashers up my behind (literally seconds from when I first saw the sign). I argued and argued that you can't expect someone to safely go from 100km/hr to 40km/hr in the time I had. I was pointing to the sign saying you have to be kidden me look at where we are now mate!!! Probably abt 300m-400m back.
> 
> ...




Yes! That is what happend, basically they were sitting right on the 40kmph (youre jogged my memory a bit more) where the speed goes from 100kmph (the normal speed) to 40...Its actually quite dangerous for both motorists and workers...today on the way home from a gym a major road (normally 60kmph) had road works and there was signage in this order - roadworks ahead, 60kmph roadworks ahead, 40kmph roadworks. This seems to be more than adequate and if the workers are serious about their safety then they should assure their is ample warning. Are you able to contest your fine (although it may not be worth it).

N.T


----------



## Boggo (24 March 2010)

A new fix for tailgaters...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Bond-fan-invents-flame-throwing-scooter.html


----------



## drsmith (24 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Yes! That is what happend, basically they were sitting right on the 40kmph (youre jogged my memory a bit more) where the speed goes from 100kmph (the normal speed) to 40...



If they were sitting on the 40 (next to the sign) and pointing anything towards the oncoming traffic to measure speed then they would have been measuring the speed in the 100 zone.

Also of note, fixed speed cameras measure the speed of a vehicle some distance before passing the camera. If the police used the same technology (Doppler radar) they would have to do the same although I don't know how far back they would have to stand.


----------



## WaveSurfer (24 March 2010)

newbie trader said:


> Yes! That is what happend, basically they were sitting right on the 40kmph (youre jogged my memory a bit more) where the speed goes from 100kmph (the normal speed) to 40...Its actually quite dangerous for both motorists and workers...today on the way home from a gym a major road (normally 60kmph) had road works and there was signage in this order - roadworks ahead, 60kmph roadworks ahead, 40kmph roadworks. This seems to be more than adequate and if the workers are serious about their safety then they should assure their is ample warning. Are you able to contest your fine (although it may not be worth it).
> 
> N.T




Agreed there mate about the ample warning. Especially on a 100km/hr motorway. Not uncommon to see idiots doing 160+ too. Every time I go to the sunny coast I am passed by at least one goon doing ludicrous speeds. Must be the air up that way. lol j/k. I love it up there.

I probably could contest it but I'd say it would be one mutha of a mission to do it now. I believe you can contest the fine before you pay it easy enough (in court though). I certainly will if it ever happens again. I just avoid the logan motorway now if I can.

Dr's post also has me thinking. I did ask to see the gun and it did say 80. But where he actually got me and where he was sitting I have no idea. Ahhh well, live and learn.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2010)

Normal practice is to break the speed down in 20 kmh increments, although in some circumstances 30 km/h change is acceptable.

First sign - symbolic "Workman Ahead" sign (orange and black sign that looks like someone shovelling a pile of dirt) with the speed sign. On a 100 km/h road that would be an 80 sign.

Then comes the slower speed signs.

There may be some variations between states and what the normal practice is, but that's how it's done in Tasmania. Only real exception is if it's a 110 km/h road, in which case it's a 30 km/h drop as the first sign will be 80 (not 90). 

One big problem with all of the above however is that the standards don't necessarily suit the works being done in all situations and/or would create massive traffic delays if applied. In my experience we always used discretion and commonsense, often not actually putting out the 40 signs if it was a congested site with little space to locate the signs (eg inner city areas with parking, bus stops etc all over the place). Traffic would be slower than 40 in that situation anyway and extra signs just introduced more problems than they solved when motorists are already looking out for workers, cyclists, traffic lights, pedestrians and so on.


----------



## noirua (16 September 2018)




----------



## noirua (9 March 2022)

Florida couple found dead 'most vicious' crime police chief has seen in 20 years: 'Deranged'
					

A husband and wife were stabbed and their throats were slashed while riding bikes in Daytona Beach, Florida, police said. They are now searching for the person who did it.




					www.foxnews.com


----------

