# Animal rights and ethical food production



## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Animal rights activists protest against egg farmers.

Do they have a valid point or are they just Leftist/Marxist troublemakers ?

If we knew more about how animals were treated in producing food, would it change our eating habits ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...demonstrate-at-bendigo-chick-hatchery/7648708


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If we knew more about how animals were treated in producing food, would it change our eating habits ?




Ignorance is bliss as they say, most of us like to think a chickens laying  eggs for us is a stress free life, but modern factory farming techniques can be cruel to say the least.

Seeing these precious little day old chicks being feed into a grinder alive certainly doesn't make me feel good about the industry.

Like male diary cattle, Male chicks are a waste product that gets discarded by the industry.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Great Poem.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Young male calves are taken from their mother and killed, so that we can milk the mum and get the milk she produced for him. Females are also removed, this is hard on both the calf and the mother.




Waste Product of the dairy industry, 90,000 male calves are shot in Britain each year.


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

OK, so I'm cutting down on milk and cheese. I use margarine instead of butter, so that's a relief on my conscience.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

The reason we left the trees and it wasn't from eating fruit and leaves.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so I'm cutting down on milk and cheese. I use margarine instead of butter, so that's a relief on my conscience.




Check out the vegan sections in Coles and Woolies, you will be surprised they are starting to get some really good selections, the veggie delights brand has some good stuff in the freezer and refrigerator section.

I have switched to Nuttlex for margarine, because it turns out all the other margarines still contain dairy.

and I use almond milk now also.

Also beer is vegan haha,


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so I'm cutting down on milk and cheese. I use margarine instead of butter, so that's a relief on my conscience.




You do know there is a 30+% elevated risk over butter of death because of the trans fats in margarine. The saturated fats in butter have not been shown to increase the risk of strokes, diabetes or heart disease.


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## Smurf1976 (1 March 2018)

If every Australian was taken on a tour inside a chicken battery then the cage egg industry would be outright dead just like that. It's absolutely horrendous what goes on.

Been there, seen inside and the whole thing is a throwback to the sorts of things which were acceptable 50+ years ago. It belongs in the same place as officially sanctioned racial discrimination, blatant sexism, people smoking inside offices and using asbestos as a filler in children's crayons. It should have stopped years ago and that it hasn't means that regulation is a necessary step.

In my view five years would be reasonable for an outright ban on this practice in Australia or the import of products produced using it.

The farmers will bleat a bit about costs but they've had _decades_ to transition away from this practice so I don't have much sympathy there. If they haven't done it already then pretty obviously they're trying to cling on to the battery system. In any event we're talking about eggs and chicken here not wages rates or petrol. If the cost doubles or even triples then the broader economic consequences are close to zero since chicken and eggs are very minor components of consumer spending or business inputs. 

For anyone who thinks it's acceptable I suggest getting two friends and finding an old phone box with a door. Now spend a few days, 24 hours per day, with all three of you living in that phone box and no you can't leave for any reason whatsoever. That's literally how cramped these chicken batteries are.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> You do know there is a 30+% elevated risk over butter of death because of the trans fats in margarine. The saturated fats in butter have not been shown to increase the risk of strokes, diabetes or heart disease.




Can you provide a link to a study?

You can get margarine with 0% trans fat, eg the Flora brand and the one I recommended above is less than 0.1% trans fat.

While dairy based butters and animal products in general are higher in saturated fats which contribute to heart disease, which is Australia's largest killer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascular_disease


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> You do know there is a 30+% elevated risk over butter of death because of the trans fats in margarine. The saturated fats in butter have not been shown to increase the risk of strokes, diabetes or heart disease.




Not necessarily so.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...pert-answers/butter-vs-margarine/faq-20058152


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> If every Australian was taken on a tour inside a chicken battery then the cage egg industry would be outright dead just like that. It's absolutely horrendous what goes on.
> 
> Been there, seen inside and the whole thing is a throwback to the sorts of things which were acceptable 50+ years ago. It belongs in the same place as officially sanctioned racial discrimination, blatant sexism, people smoking inside offices and using asbestos as a filler in children's crayons. It should have stopped years ago and that it hasn't means that regulation is a necessary step.
> 
> ...




And, Unfortunately even if the eggs are free range, you still have the problem of killing all the male chicks and the eventual slaughter of the adult hens.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

As I said in the other thread I am not a Vegan, am basically vegan except I am eating seafood about 3 times a week, So zero red meat, poultry, eggs and dairy.


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## wayneL (1 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> If every Australian was taken on a tour inside a chicken battery then the cage egg industry would be outright dead just like that. It's absolutely horrendous what goes on.
> 
> Been there, seen inside and the whole thing is a throwback to the sorts of things which were acceptable 50+ years ago. It belongs in the same place as officially sanctioned racial discrimination, blatant sexism, people smoking inside offices and using asbestos as a filler in children's crayons. It should have stopped years ago and that it hasn't means that regulation is a necessary step.
> 
> ...



Veterinary students often turn vego, at least temporarily , after their first tour of an abbatoir. 

While Im not philosophically against using animals as food, the methodology of such is important. Cruelty in the process is just not cool... 

Hence,  the coolness of missus taking our own eggs to the local asian restaurant for use in our meals. 

The interesting thing is how the staff start to think about this stuff.

Positive,  rather than scolding activism.


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## Smurf1976 (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> You do know there is a 30+% elevated risk over butter of death because of the trans fats in margarine.



I haven't bought either butter or margarine for over a decade now.

I'm trying to remember what the point of them was? There's enough fat in most people's diets already so no need to literally spread more on.


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## wayneL (1 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I haven't bought either butter or margarine for over a decade now.
> 
> I'm trying to remember what the point of them was? There's enough fat in most people's diets already so no need to literally spread more on.



There is a genetic quotient,  either a glycotropic or lipotropic metabolism. 

I am literally starving without some significant portion of fat in my diet.  Missus is the exact opposite,  fat is completely contraindicated...  Interesting at dinner time.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Can you provide a link to a study?
> 
> You can get margarine with 0% trans fat, eg the Flora brand and the one I recommended above is less than 0.1% trans fat.
> 
> ...




I'm sure you can find one that isn't peer reviewed by the anti butter plebs like wiki is. The trans fat myth dates back to the dark ages post WW2 where some bloke had the outcome and used matching data to prove it, disregarding the sets that didn't agree with his predisposed findings.

As I recall it was published in the UK about 3 years ago and combined about 50 surveys of over 1 million sample bodies.  I made a point of reading it because I like butter and was advised by my Doctor there was also anecdotal evidence linking it to prevention of diabetes

I want to say Cambridge Uni, University of Canada and another in USofA ...New York?  There many articles back in the 90's of how Harvard reckoned you doubled your chances of death eating trans fats instead of butter.

The reduction in heart disease and cardio vascular failure , while people are getting hugely fat is not the migration to trans fats from saturated, but noticeably the increase away from trans fat to the omegas, because the US Food and Drug Admin have mandated its elimination from their country's food supply.

Obviously if you too much of anything ........


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm sure you can find one that isn't peer reviewed by the anti butter plebs like wiki is. The trans fat myth dates back to the dark ages post WW2 where some bloke had the outcome and used matching data to prove it, disregarding the sets that didn't agree with his predisposed findings.
> 
> As I recall it was published in the UK about 3 years ago and combined about 50 surveys of over 1 million sample bodies.  I made a point of reading it because I like butter and was advised by my Doctor there was also anecdotal evidence linking it to prevention of diabetes
> 
> ...




Either way, spreads with zero or near zero Trans fat are widely available, as I said Nuttlex which is the only spread with zero dairy in it has less than 0.1% trans fats


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Either way, spreads with zero or near zero Trans fat are widely available, as I said Nuttlex which is the only spread with zero dairy in it has less than 0.1% trans fats




But the fact remains there is no evidence that butter is any worse than even omega-3 and you don't get super fat on butter like you do on the highly prevalent omegas.

It's not just vascular you have to worry about, the stress on muscles and joints because of obesity will make for an uncomfortable retirement.

And we must learn from history, unless you are from a lactose intolerant gene pool

"A casual look at the races of people seems to show that those using much milk are the strongest physically and mentally, and the most enduring of the people of the world. Of all races, the Aryans seem to have been the heaviest drinkers of milk and the greatest users of butter and cheese, a fact that may in part account for the quick and high development of this division of human beings.”

_History of Agriculture of the State of New York 1933_


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Vegan body building, shows its a myth that you need animal protein to grow muscle.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> "A casual look at the races of people seems to show that those using much milk are the strongest physically and mentally, and the most enduring of the people of the world.




Actually milk might be quite bad for you, increasing you chance of death by 15% for every glass you have of daily intact.


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## moXJO (1 March 2018)

Do you eat organic foods VC?


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Actually milk might be quite bad for you, increasing you chance of death by 15% for every glass you have of daily intact.






Yeah I must admit I have had to modify what milk I can drink to either "Heart Smart" or "Zymil Light". But the uncomfortable started as soon as Parmalat bought Pauls so I don't know what they did to it.

Lactase enzymes are prevalent in 85% of Causcasians, 76% Slavs and 10% of Africans and Asians.

If you get coeliac, crohn's, or any myriad of other bowel damage the production of the lactase enzyme can stop and the cramps, bloating, etc begin. 

Solution: abstinence, lactose free milk or "Lacteeze"

Bad benefits of Vegan diets:

liver toxins, thyroid vitamin A deficiency, slow reduction in stomach acid and inefficient nutrient and mineral absorption, tooth decay, lower sperm count.


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## wayneL (1 March 2018)

Let's look at humans in evolutionary adaptation terms,  what do we see. 

Vis a vis,  what might be the natural human's diet? What did we evolve to eat?


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Do you eat organic foods VC?




I don't avoid them, but I don't seek them out either.


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## moXJO (1 March 2018)

My diet is shocking. And yet I maintain a sporty physique. But here's to kicking out at 60.
Apparently all food is bad for you now. 

I'm actually concerned over some of the pesticides and pgrs they pump into vegetables now.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> Let's look at humans in evolutionary adaptation terms,  what do we see.
> 
> Vis a vis,  what might be the natural human's diet? What did we evolve to eat?




Probably mostly vegan diet, with some termites, bugs and worms thrown in.

Some how we became dependant on B12, so that proves we ate animal products, but that could have come from Insects originally, in the way that chimps and other primates will eat insects readily, and in the last 100,000 or so years we have moved further up the food chain.

An interesting point to note is that our bodies can store up to 12 months supply B12, which kind of suggests it wasn't and every day food, and have been rarely eaten, maybe a few times a year and hence the need to store it


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## wayneL (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Probably mostly vegan diet, with some termites, bugs and worms thrown in.
> 
> Some how we became dependant on B12, so that proves we ate animal products, but that could have come from Insects originally, in the way that chimps and other primates will eat insects readily, and in the last 100,000 or so years we have moved further up the food chain.
> 
> An interesting point to note is that our bodies can store up to 12 months supply B12, which kind of suggests it wasn't and every day food, and have been rarely eaten, maybe a few times a year and hence the need to store it



What is interesting are the biological contradictions... Intestine length,  teeth morphology,  natural equipment (lack of claws etc ) and our current diet. 

And then you have the paradox of the Inuit. 

Confusing


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> What is interesting are the biological contradictions... Intestine length,  teeth morphology,  natural equipment (lack of claws etc ) and our current diet.
> 
> And then you have the paradox of the Inuit.
> 
> Confusing




I think a lot of that is just misconceptions spread by those trying to justify meat eating.

For example, they say our teeth are designed to eat meat, and the use the canines as an example, but have you seen a gorillas teeth?

Much bigger canines than humans, yet it has a plant based diet.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> Let's look at humans in evolutionary adaptation terms,  what do we see.
> 
> Vis a vis,  what might be the natural human's diet? What did we evolve to eat?




I was the discovery of the bbq that resulted in us having smaller stomaches and bigger brains....apparently:

https://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I was the discovery of the bbq that resulted in us having smaller stomaches and bigger brains....apparently:
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html




But our ancestors weren't sitting at desks most of the day. They consumed a lot of energy chasing, killing and cooking their food.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> But our ancestors weren't sitting at desks most of the day. They consumed a lot of energy chasing, killing and cooking their food.





Yeah but physiologically we aren't 50 years in on our existence as a species. 

The examples of vegans thrown up as proofs are invariably supermen and women who do a lot of resource consuming chasing/exercise and I dare say administer a lot of supplements to stay that way.

I'm not sure if we are getting a true picture of the health benefits. Back when I was a boy we had plenty of vegetables, salads, pulses, nuts and a small serving of meat; chicken was an easter and xmas treat.

Back then the old blokes were shorter, retired at 65 and died at 66, even the ones who didn't smoke. Nowdays we have life prolonging medicines and less arduous work and we live longer by about 20 years all in one or two generations and they aren't all vegans. The current 30 somethings are tipped to live to 100 and the twenty something 120. once again they aren't all vegans, far from it enmasse.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> But our ancestors weren't sitting at desks most of the day. They consumed a lot of energy chasing, killing and cooking their food.




Which ancestors are you talking about?

if you look at chimps for example (they aren't our ancestors but we share a common ancestor), their diet is largely fruit, nuts, seeds and vegetables, along with some insects and bugs, yes they eat a bit of meat too, but not often, certainly less than we currently eat.

If you look at gorillas (we also share a common ancestor with gorillas, just a bit further back) they eat no meat, and are bigger and stronger than the average human.

But, what our ancestors did isn't as important as what is best for us today, we can live well on a diet without animal products, so I think morally its best for us to avoid as much animal products as we can, especially when it involves the thinking creatures like mammals and birds.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> The examples of vegans thrown up as proofs are invariably supermen and women who do a lot of resource consuming chasing/exercise and I dare say administer a lot of supplements to stay that way.
> .



The average vegan is low on 3 nutrients, the average omnivore is low in 7.

regardless if we are vegan or omnivore, we all need to make sure we are getting what we need


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Which ancestors are you talking about?
> 
> if you look at chimps for example (they aren't our ancestors but we share a common ancestor), their diet is largely fruit, nuts, seeds and vegetables, along with some insects and bugs, yes they eat a bit of meat too, but not often, certainly less than we currently eat.




I'm just saying that the early human race probably needed meat for energy, protein and brain development because they needed more energy as they were generally more active, whereas these days with a more sedentary lifestyle we don't need that much protein.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm just saying that the early human race probably needed meat for energy, protein and brain development because they needed more energy as they were generally more active, whereas these days with a more sedentary lifestyle we don't need that much protein.




I don't think hunter gathers spent too much time in the gym or running around in their Lorna Janes,


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I don't think hunter gathers spent too much time in the gym or running around in their Lorna Janes,




They didn't need to.


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## Tisme (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They didn't need to.




I don't know what they did all day, but of anything like aborigines they weren't constantly on the go.

Some graphs: notice how the rise and fall in transfats is suspiciously similar to rise and fall of heart disease we were constantly told was because of saturated fats.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-graphs-that-show-what-is-wrong-with-modern-diet#section4


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## qldfrog (1 March 2018)

about chimps, they actually crave meat and go into bloody and amazingly/scary cunning hunts, a few google search will leave you with video you will not see on TVs.
The more I know about chimps, the scarier I get, and they are like our twin brothers evolutionary wise


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> needed meat for energy, protein and brain development because they needed more energy as they were generally more active, whereas these days with a more sedentary lifestyle we don't need that much protein.




Protein comes from plants, anyone eating a range of plants and grains is going to get more than enough protein, However if you avoid plant based protein and instead go for meat you not get enough fibre and suffer problems from a fibre deficiency. 

It's a myth that you need meat for protein, or that going vegan will cause a protein deficiency.


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Protein comes from plants, anyone eating a range of plants and grains is going to get more than enough protein, However if you avoid plant based protein and instead go for meat you not get enough fibre and suffer problems from a fibre deficiency.
> 
> It's a myth that you need meat for protein, or that going vegan will cause a protein deficiency.




Yes we know that now, but I doubt if our hunter/gatherer ancestors had the dietary knowledge that we have now.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

qldfrog said:


> about chimps, they actually crave meat and go into bloody and amazingly/scary cunning hunts, a few google search will leave you with video you will not see on TVs.
> The more I know about chimps, the scarier I get, and they are like our twin brothers evolutionary wise




Yeah, I said they ate meat. but its not an every day thing, it's not even an every week thing.

They eat a relatively small amount, every now and again. 

As I said we need vitamin B12, but our bodies can store 12 months worth in the liver, So thats a sign that animal products weren't an every day thing.

--------------
Also on the topic of B12, 

80% of the B12 supplement produced get fed to farm animals, because the factory farming method produces animals that a deficient in B12.

So rather than cruelly farming animals, feeding them B12 so then we can eat them and get the B12, Why not just eat cruelty free plant diet then eat the B12 supplements our selves?


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## Value Collector (1 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> but I doubt if our hunter/gatherer ancestors had the dietary knowledge that we have now.




Meat consumption didn't boom to the levels it is at now until farming took off, (except for areas where humans moved to such as the arctic where plants don't really grow, so they started eating more fish and seals)


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## fiftyeight (1 March 2018)

Disregarding the evolutionary, environmental, dietary and health side of things, is there an ethical way to eat red and white meat (cow, pig, lamb, chicken)?

As a meat lover this thread has definitely got me thinking about things


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Disregarding the evolutionary, environmental, dietary and health side of things, is there an ethical way to eat red and white meat (cow, pig, lamb, chicken)?




Probably not now that we know what goes on in the process of putting these things on the table.

And then there is the problem of eating intelligent species at all. OK so they can't communicate but they feel pain and have concern for their offspring etc. 

I don't think most people consider these things. Will it make me give up eating chicken and eggs ? (I don't eat beef and pork anyway usually).  Maybe, maybe not, but every time I do eat these things I won't enjoy them as much as I used to.


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## fiftyeight (1 March 2018)

My grandparents owned a small dairy and orchard farm, so as a young child I spent a lot of time out there. The cows had plenty of green grass and plenty of room to roam around. However I was never up for milking and was not privy to a lot of the stuff discussed here.

Re diary, I could easily never eat diary again, we already use almond milk due to taste. Eggs I can pass on as well.

Cows and pigs are not primates. I am not convinced that a cow or pig farmed on something like a small hobby farm who is in the routine of walking through a "barn" every afternoon and was discretely and subtly pulled away from the herd for slaughter has any different quality of life than a cow or pig left in the field until natural death by age or predator.

I know this is not common practise but surely it exists?


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2018)

Re dairy, time for a change of pace...


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## moXJO (2 March 2018)

I like the idea of clean eating,  but people need to be careful in the vegetables they select. The majority from supermarkets and fruit and veg shops are packed full of pesticides and growth hormones.

Sometimes the smaller shops are worse as there are no real checks. And some of the smaller farmers that go to sydney  markets are shocking.

I know some of the chemicals they use to make fruit and veg swell and get bigger. Theres all kinds of tricks to get your fruit and vegetables to market with increased weight and bug free.
And its still easy to get those chemicals that you are not suppose to be using.

There is a list of the 12 most contaminated fruit/veg on the net. There are also online delivery services that deal in organics. 

I don't think there are a lot of articles dealing with all the  pgrs and pesticides  (there was a supposed ban, but I still see guys using the bad ones).

Meat and veg is full of all kinds of c.rap to get it to market in the most profitable manner. And the only way you know whats in it is testing or grow your own.


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## Tisme (2 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> I like the idea of clean eating,  but people need to be careful in the vegetables they select. The majority from supermarkets and fruit and veg shops are packed full of pesticides and growth hormones.
> 
> Sometimes the smaller shops are worse as there are no real checks. And some of the smaller farmers that go to sydney  markets are shocking.
> 
> ...




Lotsa stuff coming in from third world countries....even garlic ffs.

If people saw the prawn and fish farms in Asia they wouldn't buy the crap from Woolies... actually they probably would because don't want to know, just the govt and white spot.


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## moXJO (2 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Lotsa stuff coming in from third world countries....even garlic ffs.
> 
> If people saw the prawn and fish farms in Asia they wouldn't buy the crap from Woolies... actually they probably would because don't want to know, just the govt and white spot.



Yeah I've seen a few small farms. They eat the chicken shite that falls from the cages above the pond. 
 I have also seen rat meat turned into chicken skewer sticks, yum yum.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Disregarding the evolutionary, environmental, dietary and health side of things, is there an ethical way to eat red and white meat (cow, pig, lamb, chicken)?




This video shows pigs being slaughtered in Australia by the Carbon dioxide exposure method.

This is meant to be humane, But you can see the way they are freaking out and gasping for breathe.




But, does the pig actually suffer, the answer is yes.

This video below is a test done years ago to see whether the pig would suffer in the gas chamber, they fed a pig in a seal chamber for a few weeks to get it used to walking in and out, once it was used to entering the chamber they filled it with gas till it passed out, they then revived the pig and tried to feed it in the chamber again, the pig refused to enter the chamber and preferred to starve for 3 days, that is a clear sign that the process induces severe suffering.

it shows that for decades we have known the gas method causes suffering, yet we still do it.


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## luutzu (2 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Yeah I've seen a few small farms. They eat the chicken shite that falls from the cages above the pond.
> I have also seen rat meat turned into chicken skewer sticks, yum yum.




Not only chicken's... There are always a cubical over the pond too. Those aren't for fish watching.


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## moXJO (2 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Not only chicken's... There are always a cubical over the pond too. Those aren't for fish watching.



They had their house over it,  so everything went in.


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## Value Collector (3 March 2018)

A 100 year old Vegan, (now 102).

Worked as a doctor till he was 95, and still is bright as a spark.


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## fiftyeight (3 March 2018)

This thread has definitely got me thinking about my current diet. My sister has been a very strict vegetarian for about 20 years and I have always just brushed it off.

Start of a healthier diet?


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## Value Collector (3 March 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> View attachment 86467
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice one mate, I have felt so much better since I went Pescatarian. I have learned there are so many good alternatives for dairy, There are some great vegan cheese, milk, ice cream, yogurt etc at Woolies now, and woolies and Coles both stock some great Vegan meat free stuff, like ham, mince, pies, chicken, sausages etc.


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## Tisme (3 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> A 100 year old Vegan, (now 102).
> 
> Worked as a doctor till he was 95, and still is bright as a spark.


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## Wysiwyg (4 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> And then there is the problem of eating intelligent species at all. OK so they can't communicate but they feel pain and have concern for their offspring etc.



There is no thought from a cheetah when it chokes out the gazelle. Why do you have it? Billions of years of life had no compassion for what it consumed.


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## SirRumpole (4 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Lotsa stuff coming in from third world countries....even garlic ffs.
> 
> If people saw the prawn and fish farms in Asia they wouldn't buy the crap from Woolies... actually they probably would because don't want to know, just the govt and white spot.




I deliberately avoid food imported from China, Thailand , Vietnam etc.


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## Value Collector (4 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> There is no thought from a cheetah when it chokes out the gazelle. Why do you have it? Billions of years of life had no compassion for what it consumed.




Just to let you know, Every vegan and vegetarian has heard people say such things a million times, and it just shows more about a persons ignorance on the subject or their stupidity, it is not seen as a smart arguement.

There is no thought from a lion when he kills a females cubs and then rapes her, did you really want to use lion habits as a basis of our actions or morality? 

Humans have developed empathy, and most of us don’t want to put other thinking creatures through unnecessary pain and suffering, and eating meat is unnecessary, and when faced with the reality of what goes on to supply our food, a lot of people don’t want to support it.

Humans are not carnivores, we are omnivores that can thrive on a plant based diet, so we have no need terrorize and enslave other thinking mammals or birds.


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## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Just to let you know, Every vegan and vegetarian has heard people say such things a million times, and it just shows more about a persons ignorance on the subject or their stupidity, it is not seen as a smart arguement.



A million times is a lot of times. Make that a million and one now.



> There is no thought from a lion when he kills a females cubs and then rapes her, did you really want to use lion habits as a basis of our actions or morality?



Humans go to jail if caught carrying out those actions. Are you aware of the difference human beings place on animal activities? Have you ever seen a lion in court being prosecuted? It is obvious to the simpleton that the two are not the same.  



> Humans have developed empathy, and most of us don’t want to put other thinking creatures through unnecessary pain and suffering, and eating meat is unnecessary, and when faced with the reality of what goes on to supply our food, a lot of people don’t want to support it.



Since humans can kill swiftly then I think it should be done. Anything else borders on enjoyment from causing pain or watching suffering and that is not good.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Have you ever seen a lion in court being prosecuted?




A few have been shot for being a danger to humans.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Humans go to jail if caught carrying out those actions. Are you aware of the difference human beings place on animal activities?
> .



exactly, so we understand that just because a lion does something it isn’t right for a human to do it, so why would you try and justify putting an animal though unnecessary pain with such an example?



> Since humans can kill swiftly then I think it should be done. Anything else borders on enjoyment from causing pain or watching suffering and that is not good




Did you watch the video of the pigs being suffocated to death in the video I posted, that is hardly “swift”, not to mention the poor conditions they live in while alive.

Unfortunately many animals suffer in the process, the system is’t anywhere near perfect.

If you took the time to research what actually goes on you might change your tune.

The system it’s self isn’t perfect, but watch this video of turkeys being abused in an Ingham slaughter house.


----------



## Tisme (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> J
> 
> Humans have developed empathy, .
> 
> .




because they have the time and the brain capacity to do that = because of meat.

Eating berries and weeds results in lower aptitude and IQ children because the B12 substitutes don't pass to the womb.

Of course vegans always maintain they done well at scholl and make better loyf choices.


----------



## Tisme (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A few have been shot for being a danger to humans.




and they don't cook their kill


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> exactly, so we understand that just because a lion does something it isn’t right for a human to do it, so why would you try and justify putting an animal though unnecessary pain with such an example?



Killing and eating prey is the necessity of life. Killing for pleasure or to cause suffering is not. The method of killing is as varied as the creatures. The example of a cheetah kill is just that. The cheetah does not have emotion and pity for the gazelle.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2018)

The cows still in pasture and about to be killed have no idea and happily chew away. Its the process of moving animals up the ramp that they begin to get terrified. They can hear the animals ahead of them and there is a fair bit of panic and fear. The killing might be quick, but it can be brutal depending on method.

I admire people like VC and his thoughtfulness towards the suffering of animals.  He also lives by his convictions.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2018)

To add I've shot and killed for food before. And thats quick. The factory environment isn't and there is suffering before the animals are killed. 

People take it for granted having their meat neatly packed in little plastic trays ready to cook in supermarket shelves. 

A good portion of the population wouldn't last 10 minutes in an abattoir.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> because they have the time and the brain capacity to do that = because of meat.




Really, so why aren't carnivores the most empathetic? there are plenty of examples of Herbivores with more brain capacity than carnivores.


> Eating berries and weeds results in lower aptitude and IQ children because the B12 substitutes don't pass to the womb.




Have you got a link to some actually scientific study that supports that claim, also you don't need red meat to get B12, Seafood has it. and given that B12 is in the blood, I doubt it doesn't make it to the baby in the womb.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Killing and eating prey is the necessity of life. .




For lions yes, but not humans.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> The cows still in pasture and about to be killed have no idea and happily chew away. Its the process of moving animals up the ramp that they begin to get terrified.




Not to mention that the "cows in the pasture", is a diminishing thing, more and more cattle are spending longer and on feed lots, standing in dirt or their own poo rather than the nice grassy hills in the cartoon farm yard images.





> To add I've shot and killed for food before. And thats quick. The factory environment isn't and there is suffering before the animals are killed.




So have I, it wasn't that quick though, I shot the goat through the shoulder blades, it took about 1 minute to get to it due to steep ground, I found it still alive looking terrified, so I cut it's throat which again wasn't very quick, I cannot imagine it was a nice death.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

I believe (lol) that humans have developed a belief and hence practice toward the swift killing of animals for food because we as a whole want to move away from pain and suffering. To view pain and suffering is distressing for all but the insane so it is as a whole we want to move away from it. Without thought it would not matter.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> For lions yes, but not humans.



Don't include me in your assessment of the human species.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Don't include me in your assessment of the human species.




The fact is that non human carnivores kill to eat because they can't do anything else. A vegetarian diet is not suitable for them. Humans can get by without meat, it's just that we have become accustomed to it through our development. 

Just because we needed it 50,000 years ago does not mean we need it now.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Modern factory farming far from the image that the marketing companies try to sell.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

How the fast food industry and mega supermarket chains created the industrial farming practices.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact is that non human carnivores kill to eat because they can't do anything else. A vegetarian diet is not suitable for them. Humans can get by without meat, it's just that we have become accustomed to it through our development.
> 
> Just because we needed it 50,000 years ago does not mean we need it now.



I can see this going the way of a postal vote.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I believe (lol) that humans have developed a belief and hence practice toward the swift killing of animals for food because we as a whole want to move away from pain and suffering. To view pain and suffering is distressing for all but the insane so it is as a whole we want to move away from it. Without thought it would not matter.




People eating meat want don't want their food to go through pain and suffering, and they want to think they are killed swiftly, but often that is not what happens.

But take a look at the pigs in this video, does it look swift? and remember this is best practice in Australian slaughter house, If I knew this went down I wouldn't be eating bacon, hence why I have given it up.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

I prefer instant death as the best method. That should be best practice and enforced by law.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Animal cruelty in another form.

Certainly not instant death.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-of-australian-forest-to-be-lost-in-15-years


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I prefer instant death as the best method. That should be best practice and enforced by law.




If you knew the meat industry wasn't using methods that induce instant death, while also having poor animal welfare standards in the farming and transport process, would you still support the industry and eat their products?

It's not just how they die, but how they live.

Do you still want to eat bacon if the pigs lives like this, and then died in a painful death in a gas chamber?


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Animal cruelty in another form.
> 
> Certainly not instant death.



But it was alright to clear the land, kill the animals and pollute the waterways for Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane etc.? It's okay for the ones that came before and now they say, nope, too much. Laughable. Surely Indonesia, Africa and South America have greater land clearing issues than Australia.

I strongly agree there needs to be a huge government rethink on urbanisation. Because there is so much open space there is a tendency to spread far and wide.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> .? It's okay for the ones that came before and now they say, nope, too much.




What came before bears little resemblance to whats happening now. Of course there comes a point where the magnitude of any action is "too much". Too much beer, too many cigarettes, too much sugar etc.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> If you knew the meat industry wasn't using methods that induce instant death, while also having poor animal welfare standards in the farming and transport process, would you still support the industry and eat their products?
> 
> It's not just how they die, but how they live.
> 
> Do you still want to eat bacon if the pigs lives like this, and then died in a painful death in a gas chamber?



 What about all the industries you are invested in that kill flora and fauna for your financial gains. Don't think you are not a big contributor. You are.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> What about all the industries you are invested in that kill flora and fauna for your financial gains. Don't think you are not a big contributor. You are.




Yep, that's a fair point. Ethical investing can be just as productive as ethical eating.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> What came before bears little resemblance to whats happening now. Of course there comes a point where the magnitude of any action is "too much". Too much beer, too many cigarettes, too much sugar etc.




Sustainability

avoidance of the depletion of natural resources in order to maintain an ecological balance.
It is possible but the progress is soooo slow. The global warming stuff kicked things along a bit but it is government that must make the changes because people are an apathetic majority of DILIGAF's. 

And there is the economic cost.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, that's a fair point. Ethical investing can be just as productive as ethical eating.



Ethical stock investment? Nice catch phrase but does not exist. Maybe lesser yes.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> What about all the industries you are invested in that kill flora and fauna for your financial gains. Don't think you are not a big contributor. You are.




You didn't answer my question, can you answer my question?

But the animal farming industry has the same or bigger impact than other industries on the environment and land, but on top of that their product involves direct pain and suffering of their feedstock, which is live animals.

eg, Some people say things like "Growing wheat requires that animals be killed too" (pest control etc)

and yes that is true, But farming cattle requires more acres of crops be used to feed the cattle so has the same if not more impact for pest control, but then the added amount of killing the actual cattle.

Cattle need to eat about 5kg of food for every 1 kg of body weight they put on, So growing all that food puts extra stress on the environment, and if you really want to reduce the impact of wheat and corn farming, you need to reduce the amount of cattle.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Animal cruelty in another form.
> 
> Certainly not instant death.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-of-australian-forest-to-be-lost-in-15-years



Isn't that what a Greens Party should be lobbying for? Instead they are more concerned with petty b.s. and poofters getting a marriage certificate. Priorities with people is getting what they want first and foremost and the environment later.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Isn't that what a Greens Party should be lobbying for? Instead they are more concerned with petty b.s. and poofters getting a marriage certificate. Priorities with people is getting what they want first and foremost and the environment later.




I agree.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> You didn't answer my question, can you answer my question?



No I would not eat pig that had been tortured prior. I will see if there are any companies that have a swift killing process. Time wise I think instant is preferable and the production line orderly and stressless. I don't know if there are any practices that do.

Oh and how come these companies you tubed us have not been named and put on a public avoid list?


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> No I would not eat pig that had been tortured prior.




Well, most of the bacon and other pig products come from pigs killed vis the CO2 suffocation method post above, which isn't a nice death as you can see, and most of them come from high intensity farms, which is not a good life.

neither their life or death is good.




> I will see if there are any companies that have a swift killing process.




The fastest is probably electrocution, but as you will see in videos online a certain percentage don't die and end up having a horrible time.




> Oh and how come these companies you tubed us have not been named and put on a public avoid list?




Dude, they are all like that, the "Best practice methods" do not guarantee a pain free death, and as far as the blatant cruelty of staff, when its brought to the attention of the slaughter house they normally get warnings, and promise to retrain staff etc etc, very little happens.

The best thing to do is just to boycott the entire industry, al I said have been saying there is lots of good alternatives.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2018)

This is where Spam comes from.

If you can't stand watching what goes on in this video, you shouldn't be able to stand giving them your money.





Anyone for a nice glass of milk?


----------



## fiftyeight (14 March 2018)

So MUCH to wife’s surprise as lifelong red meat lover I have made a massive change to my diet. To be honest I have not even watched most of the videos VC has posted as I find them too difficult watch.


Dairy and eggs were easy as we were already drinking soy as we both prefer the taste and I hate making a mess in kitchen in the morning so rarely ate eggs haha.


Red meat is gone. A good Rogan Josh will be missed but there are heaps of good vego Indian options.


The hardest for me will be pork. I love it. I am not eating it at the moment, but I am sure I will be able to find a local ethical farmer/butcher who I personally will be happy with. Others will disagree but we all have our own definition of what is ethical.


Eating on site has been a bit challenge. I have eaten chicken twice though I did not enjoy it at all and won’t be eating it again, how quickly things change. I think I will have to start bringing some smoked salmon to site or something. I cannot eat tinned tuna twice a day for 2 weeks.


I guess where I differ from a few here and is that at times I won’t be super strict. My sister has been a SUPER strict vegetarian for 15 – 20 years (different spoons when cooking) and it is a pain in the a$$. When going to family dinners or parties the host has to cook a separate meal or she is stuck with a very un-appetising meal. Close family and friends are fine but at times it has been difficult. My current thinking is (may change as this is very new), when in my control I will eat a diet very similar to pescatarian, however if I in a situation where there is no reasonable option I will eat something I usually don’t, i.e. at a mates house watching the footy and we grab pizza for dinner I will just eat whatever is served  


So yeah very early days but there has been a massive change in my diet, I don’t see me ever going back to the way I previously ate. I will look around for more ethical pork and I need to find a cheaper way of eating lots of seafood haha


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2018)

Well I've come to realisation that basically all our food is so pumped with poisons whether it be growth hormones, antibiotics, fertilisers, pesticides, preservatives, salt, sugar, nitrates and whatever that the less of it we eat, the healthier we will be.

It's going to be tough, and maybe I won't make it but I'm going to cut down on food per se. With so much stuff including seafood coming from you know where the choice of healthy food is pretty limited these days.


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2018)

Yeah, I had a salad for lunch a few days ago.....  

Hey it's a start.


----------



## fiftyeight (18 March 2018)

Lack of subtitles is not ideal, but seems like a much better option.



Vice article where Australians are choosing inert gas asphyxiation  as a form of euthanasia. Fingers crossed this thread is not derailed by euthanasia discussion


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Lack of subtitles is not ideal, but seems like a much better option.
> 
> Vice article where Australians are choosing inert gas asphyxiation  as a form of euthanasia. Fingers crossed this thread is not derailed by euthanasia discussion




Has the gas been ethically treated or have the bottles been caged?


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)




----------



## fiftyeight (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Has the gas been ethically treated or have the bottles been caged?




Unfortunately it has been bottled. I can only justify this by the fact as a percentage of the life span of the nitrogen atom it only spends a small amout of time bottled.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Unfortunately it has been bottled. I can only justify this by the fact as a percentage of the life span of the nitrogen atom it only spends a small amout of time bottled.





Disgraceful treatment of free radicals?:


----------



## Value Collector (24 April 2018)

Dairy Farm using flames to disinfect cows.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 April 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Dairy Farm using flames to disinfect cows.





I think we all believe you, it's shocking and disgusting, but I don't watch such videos because I don't have the stomach to.


----------



## Tisme (24 April 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Dairy Farm using flames to disinfect cows.




Disgraceful


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we all believe you, it's shocking and disgusting, but I don't watch such videos because I don't have the stomach to.




I don't have the stomach for it either, but it's the truth, and I decided if I couldn't stomach the facts I shouldn't be able to stomach the products.

Not only is there terrible things happening to the animals behind our curtains of ignorance that he hide our eyes behind, but the industry is lying to us about the health benefit of their products.

------------

Who here has been told that Milk is needed for strong bones? probably every one.

However, the countries with the highest milk consumption also have the weakest bones, and the highest rates of osteoporosis, and higher rates of cancers caused by high levels of hormones.

The lies are spread by the milk and dairy industry.


Non graphic video about the risks with dairy.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)




----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


>





And here's me thinking narcissism was dead. He could of thought up a better script than using manic sarcasm as his preferred vehicle over the lies about italian cars and the porsche.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> And here's me thinking narcissism was dead. He could of thought up a better script than using manic sarcasm as his preferred vehicle over the lies about italian cars and the porsche.




I guess after 17 years of being told constantly you need to eat meat to get protein we can let him off for his sarcastic remarks, He is another example for you that you don't need meat to be an athlete.

I can tell you, as soon as you give up meat, its like every time some one notices that you don't eat meat they become an arm chair nutritionalist repeat the same protein and vitamin myths to you, I understand his frustration.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I guess after 17 years of being told constantly you need to eat meat to get protein we can let him off for his sarcastic remarks, He is another example for you that you don't need meat to be an athlete.
> 
> I can tell you, as soon as you give up meat, its like every time some one notices that you don't eat meat they become an arm chair nutritionalist repeat the same protein and vitamin myths to you, I understand his frustration.




That has come through in your previous posts. 

I'm still inclined to the dietary mix of the 50s and 60s where, in healthy families,  the vegetable volume was high and meat portions small.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> That has come through in your previous posts.
> 
> I'm still inclined to the dietary mix of the 50s and 60s where, in healthy families,  the vegetable volume was high and meat portions small.




The less meat the better, a family that gives up meat can reduce their carbon foot print by more than they would if they gave up their car or got solar panels.

Even if you are willing to put aside the horrific treatment of animals thats involved, we still have to deal with the fact that Meat production (especially cattle) contributes more greenhouse gases than all the worlds Cars, planes, trains and trucks combined.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> The less meat the better, a family that gives up meat can reduce their carbon foot print by more than they would if they gave up their car or got solar panels.
> 
> Even if you are willing to put aside the horrific treatment of animals thats involved, we still have to deal with the fact that Meat production (especially cattle) contributes more greenhouse gases than all the worlds Cars, planes, trains and trucks combined.




It's about 20% of the population eat about 45% of greenhouse emissions? About 70% of Oz emissions are sheep and cattle, but when you take out the renewables (e.g. crops, weeds, etc)  req'd to support the production it's about 10%?


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> but when you take out the renewables (e.g. crops, weeds, etc)  req'd to support the production it's about 10%?




The crops and weeds come no where near offsetting the carbon released when the natural bush was cleared to make room for the farms. (bush and rainforest is being cleared all over the world and in australia to make room for cattle and the cropland needed to feed the cattle)

Not to mention the green house gases released from mining and break down of the fertilisers. (it can take over 4 times the amount of fertiliser to produce meat than it takes to produce food crops for humans)

Also the main problem is methane, which is 16 times more potent than carbon dioxide, yes the crops remove carbon dioxide, but then the cattle turn that into methane.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> The crops and weeds come no where near offsetting the carbon released when the natural bush was cleared to make room for the farms. (bush and rainforest is being cleared all over the world and in australia to make room for cattle and the cropland needed to feed the cattle)
> 
> Not to mention the green house gases released from mining and break down of the fertilisers. (it can take over 4 times the amount of fertiliser to produce meat than it takes to produce food crops for humans)
> 
> Also the main problem is methane, which is 16 times more potent than carbon dioxide, yes the crops remove carbon dioxide, but then the cattle turn that into methane.




Methane is CH4

Total sink (hydroxyls and troposphere loss) of methane emissions is something like 98% ?

Tree loss is a one off. The grass and cereals are renewables to offset current production.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Methane is CH4
> 
> Total sink (hydroxyls and troposphere loss) of methane emissions is something like 98% ?
> 
> Tree loss is a one off. The grass and cereals are renewables to offset current production.




the total amount of methane in the atmosphere is growing, because it takes a long time to break down into carbon dioxide, methane released today can have an effect for 100 years, it not like it just breaks down right away.


> Methane in the earth's atmosphere is a strong greenhouse gas with a global warming potential (GWP) 104 times greater than CO2 in a 20-year time frame; methane is not as persistent a gas as CO2 and tails off to about GWP of 28 for a 100-year time frame.[4][11] This means that a methane emission will have 28 times the impact on temperature of a carbon dioxide emission of the same mass over the following 100 years. Methane has a large effect but for a relatively brief period, having an estimated lifetime of 8.9±0.6 years in the atmosphere,[12] whereas carbon dioxide has a small effect for a long period, having an estimated lifetime of over 100 years.
> 
> One of the most significant consequences of using a GWP 100 year time horizon for all GHGs regardless of their lifetime and warming potential is in sequestration. Here it leads to a serious underestimation, by a factor of approximately 3, for the volumes of CO2 sequestration which would be required to counter the warming effects of a given volume of methane. On the other hand, the benefits of rapid direct reductions of methane are also thought to be substantially obscured by this choice of warming time horizon for methane.[13]




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane



> Tree loss is a one off. The grass and cereals are renewables to offset current production.




Tree loss is a once off, but that carbon will remain in the atmosphere till the trees are allowed to grow back.

The grass and cereals do not offset the 100 year effect of the methane they are converted into, nor do they offset the other gases released by the fertilisers used and the energy used to mine the fertilisers etc.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> the total amount of methane in the atmosphere is growing, because it takes a long time to break down into carbon dioxide, methane released today can have an effect for 100 years, it not like it just breaks down right away.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane
> ...





Australian cattle and livestock industry is targetting 0% net gain within a decade I think it is.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

27% of human contributing emissions are livestock. Human emissions are 64% of total, so livestock is ~17% of total.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Australian cattle and livestock industry is targetting 0% net gain within a decade I think it is.




Feel free to link some documents showing how they intend on doing that.

But even if the climate change wasn't a problem, I dare you to watch this video footage from a Sydney slaughter house, (0.50 mark) and see if you can trust what this industry says, or stomach eating an animal that has been processed like this.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> 27% of human contributing emissions are livestock. Human emissions are 64% of total, so livestock is ~17% of total.



Just to be clear live stock is more that Cars, Trucks, planes, ships and trains combined.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Feel free to link some documents showing how they intend on doing that.
> 
> But even if the climate change wasn't a problem, I dare you to watch this video footage from a Sydney slaughter house, (0.50 mark) and see if you can trust what this industry says, or stomach eating an animal that has been processed like this.





I've been in abattoirs so I know what goes on in our slaughter houses. The actions in that video are gross violations and I would advocate imprisonment for all involved. Similarly I don't supported live exports outside Australia, religious branding, etc.

The subject is jumping around a bit: advantages of a vegan diet, greenhouse gases, cruelty to animals, etc.

I'm not privy to the objectives, tactics and strategies being applied for net zero emissions, but merely revealing the aim.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm



> According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].
> 
> There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].
> 
> For some researchers, evidence of these complex communication systems -- emitting noises via gas when in distress -- signals that plants feel pain. Others argue that there cannot be pain without a brain to register the feeling. Still more scientists surmise that plants can exhibit intelligent behavior without possessing a brain or conscious awareness


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm




I think we had better start living on synthesised protein pills.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we had better start living on synthesised protein pills.




Plenty of protein in Plants mate, protein comes from plants, when you eat an animal you are getting second hand protein.

for example Peanut Butter has more protein than mince meat, and when you eat spaghetti bolognese, you get more protein from the Pasta than you do the meat, if you eat weetbix, the weetbix has more protein than the milk.

It's a myth that you need animal products for protein.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Plenty of protein in Plants mate, protein comes from plants, when you eat an animal you are getting second hand protein.




Didn't you read the bit that says plants feel pain ?


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Didn't you read the bit that says plants feel pain ?




Plants don’t feel pain, but even if they did then we should definitely avoid eating meat, because Cattle eat a lot more plants than you do, so eating the plants yourself rather than feeding them to the animals then eating the animals is more efficient.

Also, plants create fruits for the purpose of animals eating them, a fruit is the bribe a plant gives an animal to help it spread its seeds.

Apples exist because the apple trees want an animal to eat the apple flesh and then discard or poop out the seeds and helping spread those seeds.


----------



## Value Collector (3 May 2018)

A friend just shared this link with me,

It shows Kosher Slaughter of lambs in Australia, The Jews will only eat the front legs because that is the only part that is considered Kosher.

So if you are eating lamb in Australia, there is good chance that your lamb has ben killed this way, because the rest of the lamb is sold into the regular meat market, only the front legs are sold as kosher.

I challenge you to watch this video before you eat Lamb again, If you can't bare the thought of watching the video, then simply don't eat Lamb (or any meat)


Click where it says "watch on facebook", then click to uncover video.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2018)

I don't eat lamb, so I'll pass.


----------



## fiftyeight (3 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> The actions in that video are gross violations and I would advocate imprisonment for all involved. Similarly I don't supported live exports outside Australia, religious branding, etc.




Agree with both of the above points


----------



## Value Collector (3 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> The actions in that video are gross violations and I would advocate imprisonment for all involved..




No Charges were laid.

The casual staff member was fired, and the full time staff member were allocated to other duties inside the abattoir.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No Charges were laid.
> 
> The casual staff member was fired, and the full time staff member were allocated to other duties inside the abattoir.




Beggars belief, but I guess it helps cement your argument against the industry and eating habits.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (3 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No Charges were laid.
> 
> The casual staff member was fired, and the full time staff member were allocated to other duties inside the abattoir.




It looks horrible to us, but it's possible that some such animals don't suffer the way we imagine they might.

Suffering requires self-awareness, and afaik it's uncertain whether animals like pigs and cattle have that awareness.  Certainly they feel pain - that's obvious.  But suffering is what makes pain intolerable.  Without suffering, pain is just another sensory input to the brain.  Pain itself, even severe pain, is not particularly problematic in the absense of self-awareness.

Consider a newborn baby boy.  Cutting the foreskin off with a sharp scalpel [no anaesthetic], he screeches in pain, but there's no suffering.  Despite being fully conscious sensory beings, babies have absolutely no self-awareness.  That comes around age 2.  The recoil/reaction is more like a hard-coded neurological response.

Some animals appear to have a degree of self awareness - dolphins, chimps, dogs etc.  Treating these sorts of animals this way, as they do in certain asian and arab countries is completely unacceptable.  Not so sure about the lower animal forms.  If it turned out they did have self awareness, then we shouldn't kill them for any reason, least of all food.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2018)

If we want to stamp these things out it's a matter of having the right inspection procedures. Random and secret audits with video evidence that things are above board.

This is where animal activists probably do a better job than employed inspectors because they really believe in what they are doing. Impassive inspectors can be got at. There could be some "learnings" there.


----------



## Tisme (4 May 2018)

*Humane Society International*
Do you have 10 seconds help us stop the killing of dogs and cats for human consumption in Indonesia, and the cruel industry that profits from animal suffering and slaughter?

Sign the Dog Meat-Free Indonesia petition urging President Joko Widodo to ban this cruelty and save countless dogs and cats from a horrible fate.




Sign the petition. Urge the President of Indonesia to ban the cruel dog and cat meat trade.
Click "Sign Up" to join the fight!
Sign Up
ACTION.HSI.ORG

https://goo.gl/o6WLNT


http://www.hsi.org/news/press_relea...528.835813060.1516701446-647046328.1511267462


----------



## Gringotts Bank (4 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> *Humane Society International*
> Do you have 10 seconds help us stop the killing of dogs and cats for human consumption in Indonesia, and the cruel industry that profits from animal suffering and slaughter?
> 
> Sign the Dog Meat-Free Indonesia petition urging President Joko Widodo to ban this cruelty and save countless dogs and cats from a horrible fate.
> ...




Can you in your wildest dreams imagine Widodo reading a petition and changing the law?

Change requires serious power, and for the most part, power lies with the rich, the well-connected, the politicians and big business.

The new trend is to use shaming (social media and the press) to bring people to justice - and that can be powerful - but some people are shameless and it doesn't work on them.  If the perpetrator is powerful and shameless, nothing can be done except wait for things to change...which they will eventually.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (4 May 2018)

Politicians won't do anything because they are gutless.  They don't want to upset our 'neighbours'.  Well Trump has proved that if your lovely neighbours (NK, China, Russia) are behaving like ar.seholes, then you can call them to account.  But it takes guts to do that.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> But it takes guts to do that.




And a few thousand nukes.


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> It looks horrible to us, but it's possible that some such animals don't suffer the way we imagine they might.
> 
> Suffering requires self-awareness, and afaik it's uncertain whether animals like pigs and cattle have that awareness.  Certainly they feel pain - that's obvious.  But suffering is what makes pain intolerable.  Without suffering, pain is just another sensory input to the brain.  Pain itself, even severe pain, is not particularly problematic in the absense of self-awareness.
> 
> ...




I think you are working of 1950's pseudoscience.

Such myths have even been used to justify human slavery before.





> Some animals appear to have a degree of self awareness - dolphins, chimps, dogs etc.  Treating these sorts of animals this way, as they do in certain asian and arab countries is completely unacceptable.  Not so sure about the lower animal forms.




Can you explain scientifically what separates a dog and a pig in terms of intelligence and ability to suffer ?

You are simply conforming to cultural bias, you see pig and being different to a dog simply because you have been raised to see them differently.



> If it turned out they did have self awareness, then we shouldn't kill them for any reason, least of all food




That part of you logic is working, but the rest of your logic is working of some rather seriously flawed beliefs.


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Certainly they feel pain - that's obvious.  But suffering is what makes pain intolerable.  Without suffering, pain is just another sensory input to the brain.  Pain itself, even severe pain, is not particularly problematic in the absense of self-awareness.



The pain / pleasure principle. Moving away from pain and toward pleasure is what ensures continuity of life. Yes humans have descriptions for their "emotional" content.


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> The pain / pleasure principle. Moving away from pain and toward pleasure is what ensures continuity of life. Yes humans add descriptions to their "emotional" content.




Yes, and humans are not as different as we like to think when it comes to other animals, especially the mammals.

I am sure that it is comforting for people eating a steak to console themselves with thoughts like "cows don't really suffer anyway" "they are treated well before I paid to have them killed" etc etc But those thoughts are based on wishful thinking, not facts.


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 May 2018)

I am surprised cattle/sheep have not learned from their past relative's experiences and fight or flight. Seems their memory banks are not effective to keep them alive.


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I am surprised cattle/sheep have not learned from their past relative's experiences and fight or flight. Seems their memory banks are not effective to keep them alive.




They are been bred of the years to non violent and passive, eg. Farmers keep the nice ones as breeders and the troublesome ones were slaughtered early without becoming breeders.

But if you have watched videos inside slaughter houses, you definitely see sheep and cattle trying to fight and escape, for example that sheep one, did you watch the face book video I shared above, the sheep were doing their best to escape even after their throats were cut some were trying to escape.

In the video you see it take 2 big men to hold some of the sheep down, they are definitely fighting for their lives, very sad.

It is hard to watch, But I highly recommend it, especially if you eat meat you owe it to the animals to see what they see and what they are forced to endure, at least then you can make an informed decision on whether your taste for meat is worth the cost you are forcing these innocent animals to pay.


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It is hard to watch, But I highly recommend it, especially if you eat meat you owe it to the animals to see what they see and what they are forced to endure, at least then you can make an informed decision on whether your taste for meat is worth the cost you are forcing these innocent animals to pay.



I have no emotion killing a creature to eat. I think it should be done swiftly and there is a serious ethical issue if the kill is prolonged. All said before.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I




Pain and suffering are two different things.  Pain on its own is not a problem.  Only with self-awareness can suffering emerge - then it's a 'problem'.

I'd doubt cattle would suffer much.  Pigs might.  But since we can't know for sure, bashing and cruelty should be condemned and punishable.


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I have no emotion killing a creature to eat.




Even when you don't need to?

Are you ok killing all creatures? eg are there any species you wouldn't be ok killing?



> I think it should be done swiftly and there is a serious ethical issue if the kill is prolonged.




Why is there only an ethical issue if the killing is prolonged? 

I mean I agree with you that prolonging the killing process is terribly unethical, but if you agree that prolonged suffering during the killing process is unethical, then isn't the entire killing process unethical to begin with?


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'd doubt cattle would suffer much. .




What are you basing that on?

Is there science that says they don't? is there anything grossly different about their Brains or nervous system that makes you think that?

I am sure its a comforting thing for you to believe but I doubt it is true.

In all my research I haven't come across any modern studies that agrees with your position, as I said its 1950's stuff you are saying, and remember it wasn't to long ago that blacks were considered to be lower creatures.


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Cattle are mindless robots,

They are intelligent perhaps even more intelligent than dogs.

Check out this video, you will see cows can learn to open gates, release other cows from devices, turn on taps, and even pump water using a pump.

(this is not a graphic one, its a happy video)


----------



## Value Collector (4 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Pigs might.  But since we can't know for sure, bashing and cruelty should be condemned and punishable.




The current method of killing pigs in Australia is Terrible even when it all goes to plan.

if you like bacon watch this video, you will see the Hell Australian pigs go through as they are suffocated with Co2, people that clean these killing cages say they often find pig hooves that have been ripped of by the pigs struggling so much.



and this is one of the USA's plants that make spam and other ham products.


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> And a few thousand nukes.




and Twitter


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> The current method of killing pigs in Australia is Terrible even when it all goes to plan.
> 
> if you like bacon watch this video, you will see the Hell Australian pigs go through as they are suffocated with Co2, people that clean these killing cages say they often find pig hooves that have been ripped of by the pigs struggling so much.
> 
> ...





First we can't pray, now we can't eat. Dam it man.


----------



## fiftyeight (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> if you like bacon watch this video, you will see the Hell Australian pigs go through as they are suffocated with Co2, people that clean these killing cages say they often find pig hooves that have been ripped of by the pigs struggling so much.




Why is the use of inert gas not more wide spread?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Cattle are mindless robots,
> 
> They are intelligent perhaps even more intelligent than dogs.
> 
> ...





I like happy videos. 

But it does raise the question that if we don't raise cattle for products , then why have them at all ? They just take up pasture space that could be used for growing crops.

Do we just let them become extinct ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (4 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Cattle are mindless robots,
> 
> They are intelligent perhaps even more intelligent than dogs.
> 
> ...




Intelligence has no correlation with self-awareness.  Did you read what I wrote about circumcision without anaesthetic? Why does nobody worry about that?  Simply because there's no self-awareness in a newborn.

What you're doing is imagining you are the pig/cow being bashed and then thinking how horrible that would be.  A fish will battle for its life if pulled from the ocean, but it's just a lump of flesh with a computer program in it.  Survival is simply part of its programming, built in by nature.  And it doesn't think "how unfair this is".  It's just a mindless lump of flesh.  The higher order the animal, the more careful we need to be, that's all.


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Why is the use of inert gas not more wide spread?




What do you mean?


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I like happy videos.
> 
> But it does raise the question that if we don't raise cattle for products , then why have them at all ? They just take up pasture space that could be used for growing crops.
> 
> Do we just let them become extinct ?




You can keep some as pets if you really want some around. ( but yes I think I would prefer not breeding cows if we are going to just kill them, especially when life in the feedlots is crap and then the death is horrifying)

But wildlife is going extinct because we are bulldozing natural habitat to make way for cattle and the crops used to feed cattle.

So if we had reduced demand for cattle meat, we could have more natural wildlife, and you can have a few cows as a novelty if you want.


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Intelligence has no correlation with self-awareness.  Did you read what I wrote about circumcision without anaesthetic? Why does nobody worry about that?  Simply because there's no self-awareness in a newborn.
> 
> What you're doing is imagining you are the pig/cow being bashed and then thinking how horrible that would be.  A fish will battle for its life if pulled from the ocean, but it's just a lump of flesh with a computer program in it.  Survival is simply part of its programming, built in by nature.  And it doesn't think "how unfair this is".  It's just a mindless lump of flesh.  The higher order the animal, the more careful we need to be, that's all.




I know exactly what you are saying, what I am saying is that your opinion is based on old beliefs, and it is not true based on current scientific and medical thinking.

Studies are showing babies experience pain.

Also even if human babies weren’t “conscious” or “self aware” due to their brains being under developed, how does that prove that adult animals with fully developed brains don’t have self awareness.

Where is your evidence? 

Show me a scientific study that proves that there is something about the brains of other mammals that prevents them from experiencing suffering.

This video talks about the current evidence debunking the old theories that’s babies don’t experience pain.


----------



## fiftyeight (5 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> What do you mean?


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2018)

fiftyeight said:


>





I am guess they avoid helium due to cost and practicality.

I am pro any improvement that can reduce pain and suffering during the killing process, however I still think it is far from being ethical even if there was zero pain during the slaughter process for 2 other reasons.

1, The living conditions at farms are generally terrible

2, I am not sure there is a sound argument that shows its ethical to kill some of our target species even if it were pain free, eg. even if I could painlessly kill you, it still would be murder.



This video shows some of the living conditions we put these intelligent animals in, and the diseases they live with without medical treatment.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> First we can't pray, now we can't eat. Dam it man.



Rolling on the floor laughing.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Even when you don't need to?
> 
> Are you ok killing all creatures? eg are there any species you wouldn't be ok killing?
> 
> ...



It is like when I go to the toilet. I don't have to explain it to anyone.


----------



## lindsayf (5 May 2018)

Interesting but disturbing thread...


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is like when I go to the toilet. I don't have to explain it to anyone.




Well this is a discussion thread, but you don't have to take part if you don't want to.

I would just ask that you take some time to think about the your choices and the impact they have on the innocent victims of those choices, Do some research and push past any wishful thinking you might have.

-----------------------
*Just to clarify where I am going from on this topic*

*I ate meat for the first 35 years of my life, and used all the excuses and arguments generally thrown around by those who eat meat and believed not of the myths.

I have fought and debated this topic from the meat eaters side for a long time, (people here should know how much I like a good debate and genuinely try my best to figure out the correct position to hold).

However the more debates I got into with vegans, the more I realised my opinions were deeply flawed,  and that slaughtering animals and eating their meat was not a moral option, So I changed my position and gave up eating meat. 

After multiple debates where I attempted to defend eating meat, I have realised there is no good argument I can think of for it, every common argument used to support it is flawed, I am open to be proved wrong and welcome any feed back, but I am pretty sure that there is no reasonable argument that can justify slaughtering animals for meat, diary or eggs.*


----------



## Tink (6 May 2018)

Here is a different view, VC

_http://www.watoday.com.au/national/...making-it-more-difficult-20180423-p4zb4v.html

https://twitter.com/DavidLeyonhjelm_


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I am open to be proved wrong and welcome any feed back, but I am pretty sure that there is no reasonable argument that can justify slaughtering animals for meat, diary or eggs.




Morally I think you are right.

I would like to see some studies showing that we can get our desired levels of nutrients from plants alone without totally destroying the natural environment by clearing for farming lands.

How about seafood ? Aren't fish creatures too ?


----------



## Tisme (6 May 2018)

Pain receptors or not, vegans are tearing apart, chopping & dicing and eating living things!!

Take the irony of the Venus Flytrap : https://www.theatlantic.com/science...trap-counts-the-struggles-of-its-prey/424782/


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2018)

The future of meat ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-05-06/vegan-alternative-plant-based-meat-grown-in-lab/9726436


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Morally I think you are right.
> 
> I would like to see some studies showing that we can get our desired levels of nutrients from plants alone without totally destroying the natural environment by clearing for farming lands.
> 
> How about seafood ? Aren't fish creatures too ?




All the vitamins and nutrients we need are found in plants, except vitamin B12, however B12 is already added to some vegan food or you can just take a B12 pill once a week, but there is no rush, your body stores between 1 and 5 years worth of B12.

Also, 80% of the B12 vitamins produced gets used by the factory farms, so it’s more efficient if we just ate the supplement ourselves.

By reducing meat consumption, we reduce the total amount of farmland needed.

Some seafood is acceptable in my opinion, seaweed is good and mussels and oysters don’t have brains, and some other seafood have such simple brains they may not have the self awareness that birds and mammals have.


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2018)

Tink said:


> Here is a different view, VC
> 
> _http://www.watoday.com.au/national/...making-it-more-difficult-20180423-p4zb4v.html
> 
> https://twitter.com/DavidLeyonhjelm_




Why don’t animals deserve to have rights? 

It appears his only arguement is that if we give them rights we might not be able to kill them to make shoes.

He says we don’t put an animal on trail if they steal food, and he is correct, we don’t do that to young children either, but no one here would agree that children don’t have rights, or that we should kill them to make shoes.


----------



## luutzu (6 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The future of meat ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-05-06/vegan-alternative-plant-based-meat-grown-in-lab/9726436




Don't they already have that already? It's called Chicken McNugget 

Ther's also "pink slime" use as meat fillers in sausages and those grinded up meat. 

This is why the Asians in Asia prefer a head to go with their meat - evidence that it's actual meat.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Pain receptors or not, vegans are tearing apart, chopping & dicing and eating living things!!
> 
> Take the irony of the Venus Flytrap : https://www.theatlantic.com/science...trap-counts-the-struggles-of-its-prey/424782/




The “plants tho” arrgement against veganism is complete bunk.

For starters the animals that meat eaters kill, eat many more plants than the vegans eat directly, so if you really care about plants, don’t eat animals that are fed plants.

It is really just a lame arguement that people cutting animals throats use to justify their actions

Also many fruits and vegatibles are produced by plants with the purpose of having an animal eat them, think of an apple, an apple is a bribe the plant uses to get an animal to help spread its seeds.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The future of meat ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-05-06/vegan-alternative-plant-based-meat-grown-in-lab/9726436




Check out the impossible burger, I can’t wait to try one of these things.


----------



## Tink (7 May 2018)

VC, you are entitled to your view, and as I have said, I care for animals.
I also had a lady who is a professional dog breeder tell me that she was not happy with what they were trying to regulate in Melbourne.

When I see you standing up for humans and babies, I will listen to your side.

Your Orwellian - two legs bad, four legs good.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

Tink said:


> VC, you are entitled to your view, and as I have said, I care for animals.




does this represent "care for animals" to you?

do you support live  male chicks being fed into a meat grinder?





> When I see you standing up for humans and babies, I will listen to your side.




I don't see the atrocities happening inside the food industry happening to humans.

What happens in the animal industry is just as bad or worse than the Holocaust, and it happens on an enormous scale, much bigger than the nazi's holocaust.


> Your Orwellian - two legs bad, four legs good.




Tink, you are the one here willing to turn a blind eye to cruelty based on the number of legs an animal has.

You seem fine with a cow having her baby shot so that you can steal her milk she made for him, or a male chick sent through a meat grinder alive because he is worthless compared to his egg producing sister.

Instead of automatically resisting animal rights groups, why not take a look at whats happening first.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I don't see the atrocities happening inside the food industry happening to humans.




I think Tink is probably referring to abortion.


----------



## Tink (7 May 2018)

In lawless Melbourne, there is no protesting allowed to do with humans on private property.

Yet these vegans storm restaurants, stores with no restraints to do with as they please.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think Tink is probably referring to abortion.




If she is anti abortion, then wouldn't it logically follow she should be against putting babies through a meat grinder or shooting them, or sitting their throats?

oh, but just because they are a different species they shouldn't have the right to not be put through pain and suffering.

call me crazy, but I see a living and breathe fully functional animal with the ability to suffer as having more rights than a lump of cells that doesn't even have a brain, whether those cells have human dna or chicken doesn't bother me its not capable of suffering yet, but once it is capable of suffering I also don't care whether it has human or chicken dna, we need to avoid causing it undue suffering.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

Tink said:


> In lawless Melbourne, there is no protesting allowed to do with humans on private property.
> 
> Yet these vegans storm restaurants, stores with no restraints to do with as they please.




But are you for or against male chicks being fed into a grinder alive?


----------



## Tink (7 May 2018)

So you think it is fine to murder babies because it is a boy or a girl?

You talk about family here but total opposite to do with humans.


----------



## Value Collector (7 May 2018)

Tink said:


> So you think it is fine to murder babies because it is a boy or a girl?




No tink, Thats the food industry. eg Male chickens and dairy cattle are killed.

So, I ask again.

Why are you avoiding the question?

*Are you ok with male chicks being fed into a meat grinder alive?*



> You talk about family here but total opposite to do with humans.




Nope, as I just explained my thoughts are identical, I believe both humans and animals deserve rights and to be treated respectfully once they are fully formed once they are alive and capable of experiencing suffering etc. 

you are the one making a distinction based on species, not me.

*Please stick to the thread topic, there are already other threads about abortion*


----------



## tinhat (7 June 2018)

What I find interesting is how cheap chicken meat is now. $3 per kg at the supermarket (as advertised by Aldi). God knows what sort of life these chickens live.

What are the margins? What are we eating?


----------



## Tisme (26 September 2018)

$2,500 and a trip home..... that'll send a message to the community:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/man-poisoned-wedge-tailed-eagles-in-gippsland-jailed/10298426


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> $2,500 and a trip home..... that'll send a message to the community:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/man-poisoned-wedge-tailed-eagles-in-gippsland-jailed/10298426




He should have got 6 months at least.

Eagles kill vermin and that helps farmers. I can't see any logic in what he did.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 October 2018)

Chicken nuggets from feathers.

No animal slaughter needed.

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/prog...own-from-feathers-to-go-on-sale-soon/10397808


----------



## SirRumpole (1 November 2018)

A third of Britons have stopped or are reducing meat intake says report.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...r-reduced-meat-eating-vegan-vegetarian-report

Implications for the meat export industry obviously.


----------



## noirua (1 November 2018)

Going a bit off topic. Many African farmers have problems increasing crops because they do not have a bank account and paying for fertilisers is a problem. Plans from some, noting that much fertiliser comes from Zambia, is the creation of a new crypto currency token.
https://blog.getwala.com/dala-and-w...tegic-partnership-to-lend-10m-in-327244473b30


----------



## Tink (3 November 2018)

https://twitter.com/DavidLeyonhjelm


----------



## Ann (3 November 2018)

Tink said:


> https://twitter.com/DavidLeyonhjelm




Geez I just hate looking at something without a warning that it is horrifying and revolting. Please in future Tink a simple, considerate warning would be appreciated.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2019)

Gates and Branson invest in synthetic meat.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/201...re-investing-in-a-mysterious-new-kind-of-meat


----------



## Value Collector (13 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Gates and Branson invest in synthetic meat.
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/news/201...re-investing-in-a-mysterious-new-kind-of-meat




Virgins “free snacks” on all domestic flights are now vegan, Richard can see the writing on the wall.


----------



## Value Collector (13 January 2019)

When I discuss the animal suffering in the food industry with meat eaters, the three most common myths that I hear are 

1, But, In Australia we treat animals well, only overseas methods create suffering.

2, Animals don’t suffer because humane slaughter practices are used.

3, animal suffering is only in isolated cases.

The following video is an Australian documentary, all cases unless labeled otherwise are from Australian animal processing.

I think if you eat meat, eggs or dairy you need to watch this.


----------



## qldfrog (14 January 2019)

I eat meat and eggs, both produced and processed within my property.i give a name to my steers and have absolutely no problem to that consumption and neither would should any level headed person.
It should not be a war against meat but against industrialisation of it.
Just remember that what you replace it as a vegan/vegetarian  is intensive farming for soya/cereals.
Aka ecosystem dead as in european wheat field deserts, heavy fossil fuel usage, fully cleared amazonian rainforest and Borneo palm 
plantations.
Compare it with hillside sheeps grazing, cattle in switzerland and meadows with edge in Britain.
And yes productivity is lower, but we are back to the #1 problem:
Too many bloody humans

So let's tackle source of the problems, forbid live exports, reinstate local abattoirs and do not buy your meat in Woolies.
As an individual, buy organic meat if you can not grow yours
My view


----------



## Value Collector (14 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I eat meat and eggs, both produced and processed within my property.i give a name to my steers and have absolutely no problem to that consumption and neither would should any level headed person.
> It should not be a war against meat but against industrialisation of it.
> Just remember that what you replace it as a vegan/vegetarian  is intensive farming for soya/cereals.
> Aka ecosystem dead as in european wheat field deserts, heavy fossil fuel usage, fully cleared amazonian rainforest and Borneo palm
> ...




Dude, most of the worlds commerciallly produced grains that are causing environmental damage are used to feed animals.

Take meat out of our diets and we would need 10 times less farm land.

Any “level headed person” should be able to take a step back and see reducing meat consumption is not only better for the environment, but reduces animal suffering.

Forget about live export, Australian animal agriculture is horrific as it is.


----------



## fiftyeight (14 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Any “level headed person” should be able to take a step back and see reducing meat consumption is not only better for the environment, but reduces animal suffering.




As mentioned in this thread, I have taken a lot on board and have changed my eating habits due to this thread and the ideas discussed.

From a purely ethical animal rights point of view, I have no problem with @qldfrog producing and consuming meat in this way, I would buy some my self.

Is it sustainable to feed the world a western diet using ethical farming methods similar to @qldfrog probably not. Who knows maybe GMOs and battery powered trucks will allow for a massive increase in grain production on land already being farmed.


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> From a purely ethical animal rights point of view, I have no problem with @qldfrog producing and consuming meat in this way,




How do you know?

He didn’t actually give any details about his methods, you are just assuming small scale must be small impact.

The golden rule of morality is to treat others as you would want to be treated in their situation.

Now, would any one here put their hand up to trade places with one of the animals who is going to have their throat cut by qldfrog? Or would they let qldfrog treat their pet this way?

If not why not?

Killing an animal for entertainment, is  not moral in my opinion, and in a world with loads of meal alternatives, eating meat is not a necessity, so it is entertainment.


----------



## ducati916 (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> How do you know?
> 
> He didn’t actually give any details about his methods, you are just assuming small scale must be small impact.
> 
> ...




There are a number of weaknesses with your arguments:

(a) the golden rule is susceptible to the criticism of the 'egoist'. The egoist can consistently pursue their own self-interest and demonstrate no inconsistency in recommending that others also do so, as one example.

(b) the argument that eating meat is not a necessity, does not lead to a valid conclusion that eating meat is entertainment. That is simply incorrect and a non sequitur.

jog on
duc


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## fiftyeight (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> How do you know?
> 
> He didn’t actually give any details about his methods, you are just assuming small scale must be small impact.




That is getting a bit nit picky, you know what point I was making. No there were no specifics on his methods, I assumed (yes I know dangerous) that if he is giving his steers names, that they are treated with respect during life and slaughter.

My general point still stands, if animals are farmed and slaughtered with respect and care I have no issue with eating their meat.

I dont think farming and slaughtering an animal is entertaining, we may enjoy the meal it provides but the slaughtering is not 'entertainment'. I look forward to enjoying meat from a lab.

This goes the same with hunting. I went down the rabbit hole to find out why people would want to kill an animal for sport, and found a group of hunters who take great care in selecting older targets outside of breeding times. They then stalk the prey to get close enough that a kill shot is a high probability. They then slaughter the animal and consume most of the animal. Joe Rogan practises this style of hunting, there are a number of vids and chat on him and hunting. This does not tickle my pickle but I have no issue with this style of hunting. As before can it sustain a world population eating a western style diet, no.



Value Collector said:


> The golden rule of morality is to treat others as you would want to be treated in their situation.




Animals feel pain and have memories, hence why I have changed my eating habits, but we do not need to apply high human morality standards to the same degree to all animals as we apply them to other humans.


----------



## fiftyeight (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> How do you know?
> 
> He didn’t actually give any details about his methods, you are just assuming small scale must be small impact.




That is getting a bit nit picky, you know what point I was making. No there were no specifics on his methods, I assumed (yes I know dangerous) that if he is giving his steers names, that they are treated with respect during life and slaughter.

My general point still stands, if animals are farmed and slaughtered with respect and care I have no issue with eating their meat.

I dont think farming and slaughtering an animal is entertaining, we may enjoy the meal it provides but the slaughtering is not 'entertainment'. I look forward to enjoying meat from a lab.

This goes the same with hunting. I went down the rabbit hole to find out why people would want to kill an animal for sport, and found a group of hunters who take great care in selecting older targets outside of breeding times. They then stalk the prey to get close enough that a kill shot is a high probability. They then slaughter the animal and consume most of the animal. Joe Rogan practises this style of hunting, there are a number of vids and chat on him and hunting. This does not tickle my pickle but I have no issue with this style of hunting. As before can it sustain a world population eating a western style diet, no.



Value Collector said:


> The golden rule of morality is to treat others as you would want to be treated in their situation.




Animals feel pain and have memories, hence why I have changed my eating habits, but we do not need to apply high human morality standards to the same degree to all animals as we apply them to other humans.


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## Tink (15 January 2019)

*Veganism* is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals.* A follower of the diet or the philosophy is known as a vegan (/ˈviːɡən/ VEE-gən).[c] Distinctions may be made between several categories of veganism. Dietary vegans (or strict vegetarians) refrain from consuming animal products, not only meat but also eggs, dairy products and other animal-derived substances.[d] The term ethical vegan is often applied to those who not only follow a vegan diet but extend the philosophy into other areas of their lives, and oppose the use of animals for any purpose.[e] Another term is environmental veganism, which refers to the avoidance of animal products on the premise that the industrial farming of animals is environmentally damaging and unsustainable.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism*


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> That is getting a bit nit picky, you know what point I was making. No there were no specifics on his methods, I assumed (yes I know dangerous) that if he is giving his steers names, that they are treated with respect during life and slaughter.
> 
> My general point still stands, if animals are farmed and slaughtered with respect and care I have no issue with eating their meat.
> 
> ...




Is there a “respectful” way to kill something that doesn’t want to die?

I don’t think it is nit picking, he might be cutting the animals throat, now he might be well intentioned and try to do it quickly etc, but can’t imagine it being very pleasent for the animal.

I have shot animals before, and cut their throats, I come from a farming and hunting family, I know you can say all the well intentioned words and justifications you like, but that doesn’t change the experience of the animals.

And if it doesn’t want to die, but we kill it anyway for something as trivial as “I liked the taste for the 30 seconds it was in my mouth” what does that say about us.

If we admit that animals feel pain, can suffer etc in similar ways to humans, why wouldn’t we apply similar moral standards?


----------



## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

Tink said:


> *Veganism* is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals.* A follower of the diet or the philosophy is known as a vegan (/ˈviːɡən/ VEE-gən).[c] Distinctions may be made between several categories of veganism. Dietary vegans (or strict vegetarians) refrain from consuming animal products, not only meat but also eggs, dairy products and other animal-derived substances.[d] The term ethical vegan is often applied to those who not only follow a vegan diet but extend the philosophy into other areas of their lives, and oppose the use of animals for any purpose.[e] Another term is environmental veganism, which refers to the avoidance of animal products on the premise that the industrial farming of animals is environmentally damaging and unsustainable.[22]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism*




Yes Tink, thank you for providing the definition of veganism.

I class myself as an ethical vegan.

However, I am not a “dictionary definition” vegan, eg I will still use products derived from insects, and some seafood that doesn’t have a brain eg mussels and oysters etc.

But I won’t use any products from mammals, birds, reptiles, fish etc etc.

Basically the more advanced an animal is and the more capable of experiencing pain and suffering, the more I am repulsed by it.

Eg, I am less repulsed by the idea of people eating a prawn than cattle, dairy or eggs etc.


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## SirRumpole (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Yes Tink, thank you for providing the definition of veganism.
> 
> I class myself as an ethical vegan.
> 
> ...




Has your veganism made any difference to your personal health ?


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Has your veganism made any difference to your personal health ?




I have lost about 5kg of fat, I am not saying you can’t put on weight being vegan, you definately can.

But for me, I found that after dinner of lots of meat like I used to eat, I would feel sluggish for the rest of the night.

But, since cutting out meat It’s like my body digests my dinners easier, so I have more energy in the evenings and tend to take my dog for a walk or be active in other ways rather than just sit in front of the tv.

This flows on to other benefits to, having the energy to exercise etc increases consentration, and I find I read better than I used to at night.


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## Humid (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I have lost about 5kg of fat, I am not saying you can’t put on weight being vegan, you definately can.
> 
> But for me, I found that after dinner of lots of meat like I used to eat, I would feel sluggish for the rest of the night.
> 
> ...



What does your dog eat?


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

Humid said:


> What does your dog eat?




Dog food, and certain left overs from our meals.

Are you asking if my dog is vegan?

 The answer is no, dogs are different from primates, humans thrive on a vegan diet, I don’t think dogs would, but the food I feed her is made from a combination of plant based ingredients and fish protein and oil, She does really good on it, I would be open to trialing food made from more vegan ingredients.

I am also open to having vegan pets in the future, eg a goat.


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## Humid (15 January 2019)

I work away a lot and stay in camps where all food is put on for you and I mean lots of food.
I do notice my eating habits change to a more vegetables and salads and less meat.
It’s easy when someone’s doing the cooking for you


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## fiftyeight (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Is there a “respectful” way to kill something that doesn’t want to die?
> 
> I don’t think it is nit picking, he might be cutting the animals throat, now he might be well intentioned and try to do it quickly etc, but can’t imagine it being very pleasent for the animal.
> 
> If we admit that animals feel pain, can suffer etc in similar ways to humans, why wouldn’t we apply similar moral standards?




Yeah it is nit picky. Very. If the animal suffers during slaughter, I hardly find that respectful or caring so your point is moot.

I did not say that animals experience pain in a similar way to humans.


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## qldfrog (15 January 2019)

For anyone interested, Lind and Miko are the two steers we have currently,
Yes i named these
 i do not name the chooks but do for the rooster.
I can hardly bear the hypocrisy in the selfishness of being vegetarian or reducing meat and yet having a purely leisure dog or cat.my own sister an example
Farm dogs or guide dogs are obviously excluded.

This is the plague of this century, dumbed down arguments force fed to believe in Black and White positions, based on limited sciences and selected research.
Does anyone believe we can grow anything in our australian sheeps and cattle ranches or in mountains area?Do you have any idea of the soil benefitting of proper cattle land use?
Against burn off if you let it vacants?
Are you ready to cut an extra 1/10 of ranches surface from the amazon or borneo to grow the equivalent in vegetarian protein, and then where do you get the petrol for that?
I hate industrial food production and so understand a limited consumption to quality product, but i hate fanatics 
Anyway, no point reasoning with jihadists, must be so easy mentally to follow the flow and the ambient brainwash and propaganda
Let's watch The project and ABC to get informed..
Qldfrog,
 Gilet jaune


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> Yeah it is nit picky. Very. If the animal suffers during slaughter, I hardly find that respectful or caring so your point is moot.
> 
> I did not say that animals experience pain in a similar way to humans.




Do you think they don’t suffer pain in a similar way to humans?

I ask you again,  Is there anyway you can kill an animal that doesn’t want to die respectfully? 

There are rapists that drug their victims, before they rape and kill them, the victim never suffers and doesn’t even know they were raped and killed, is that respectful murder?


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> For anyone interested, Lind and Miko are the two steers we have currently,
> Yes i named these
> i do not name the chooks but do for the rooster.
> I can hardly bear the hypocrisy in the selfishness of being vegetarian or reducing meat and yet having a purely leisure dog or cat.my own sister an example
> ...




How is it hypocrisy for a vegan to have a pet.

I actually rescued my dog from the pound, look after her well and don’t plan to use her for her body when she reaches a certain weight.

I am against puppy farms etc, but can’t see a problem with giving a home to an animal in need.

As far as Australia’s sheep and cattle stations, a lot are on marginal land that could just be returned to nature, as I said vegan diets require less farm land, so the marginal land could be let go.

If we stopped feeding 70 Billion animals in factory farms, we would have no problem feeding the 7 billion humans with a fraction of the existing crop lands.


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

You think vegans are extremists, yet you can look at “Lind and Miko” and see no problem with cutting their throats when you get hungry, rather than just eating something else.

I think the only difference is that If I looked at Lind and Miko in the eyes, I would see them as “someone” to be respected, you see them as “something” to be used.

Yet you say I am extreme, just because I would rather have baked beans and avocado on toast for breakfast, rather than an animal that screamed and struggled for its life.


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## Value Collector (15 January 2019)

Yeah, it’s vegans that believe the propaganda


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## SirRumpole (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> You think vegans are extremists, yet you can look at “Lind and Miko” and see no problem with cutting their throats when you get hungry, rather than just eating something else.
> 
> I think the only difference is that If I looked at Lind and Miko in the eyes, I would see them as “someone” to be respected, you see them as “something” to be used.
> 
> Yet you say I am extreme, just because I would rather have baked beans and avocado on toast for breakfast, rather than an animal that screamed and struggled for its life.




Baked beans on toast loses its magic after a while. 

But I agree with your underlying view. Land clearing for grazing to feed increasing population is killing the environment .


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## fiftyeight (15 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Do you think they don’t suffer pain in a similar way to humans?
> 
> I ask you again,  Is there anyway you can kill an animal that doesn’t want to die respectfully?
> 
> There are rapists that drug their victims, before they rape and kill them, the victim never suffers and doesn’t even know they were raped and killed, is that respectful murder?




I am not sure animals do 'want' anything. I am yet to be convinced that an animals consciousness is similar enough to humans to apply the same moral code. I am not saying they dont have any consciouness at all, but currently (I am open to change, just like I did with my diet) I think it is different enough to apply a different moral code. It still requires a moral code, again hence why I have changed my diet.

Really??? That last 'question' does not even need a response.

Its funny that your posts in this thread played a large part in me going down this rabbit hole, yet because I arrived at different conclusion to you, it seems to be an issue.

If your goal is reduce the consumption of meat or at least reduce the consumption of unethical meat you are going about it the wrong way and are providing ammo to the vegan/vegetarian bashers


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> I am not sure animals do 'want' anything. I am yet to be convinced that an animals consciousness is similar enough to humans to apply the same moral code. I am not saying they dont have any consciouness at all, but currently (I am open to change, just like I did with my diet) I think it is different enough to apply a different moral code. It still requires a moral code, again hence why I have changed my diet.
> 
> Really??? That last 'question' does not even need a response.
> 
> ...




It pretty clear to me that a pig prefers not to feel pain.

Given the choice the pig will choose to avoid pain and suffering and choose comfort.

I am totally confused by your first sentence, animals aren’t robots.


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## ducati916 (16 January 2019)

The issue is fairly clear cut.

Do animals have rights?

If yes:

(a) where do those rights originate from; and
(b) what are those rights.

If no:

(a) ought we as humans, if meat is not a necessity, desist from killing them for food.

VC is hopelessly confused and is simply arguing from a personal bias or value.

jog on
duc


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## fiftyeight (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It pretty clear to me that a pig prefers not to feel pain.
> 
> Given the choice the pig will choose to avoid pain and suffering and choose comfort.
> 
> I am totally confused by your first sentence, animals aren’t robots.




Animal consciousness is different enough to ours that a different moral code is required.

The words 'prefer' and 'feel' to me have human subtext/connotation, not sure that is the right way to explain what I am saying. The way 'I' prefer something or feel something is very different to the way a pig feels something.

Yes a pig will avoid pain, but a clam will also avoid negative stimuli.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> Animal consciousness is different enough to ours that a different moral code is required.




How so?

Humans are a species of animal, what evidence is there to suggest that our consciousness is so different to the other mammals that we shouldn’t  give them the very basics of our moral code. Eg I am not saying we should give them the rights to vote, just choose to eat a plant instead of using them for their bodies.

Choosing to avoid animal products isn’t the most we can do, it’s the least we can do, I really get confused when people think avoiding animal products is extreme, it’s nothing when you think about it.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

If you want to see things from my perspective, and how vegans see the world. Take a moment to watch this video.

It’s not graphic, but it shows how vegans think, and compares it to beliefs you probably already hold.


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## fiftyeight (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> How so?
> 
> Humans are a species of animal, what evidence is there to suggest that our consciousness is so different to the other mammals that we shouldn’t  give them the very basics of our moral code. Eg I am not saying we should give them the rights to vote, just choose to eat a plant instead of using them for their bodies.
> 
> Choosing to avoid animal products isn’t the most we can do, it’s the least we can do, I really get confused when people think avoiding animal products is extreme, it’s nothing when you think about it.




We are a very different species of animal. A chicken is not self-aware, it does not think about the future or the past,  it may have some ‘memory’ of where food is stored but it does not make an emotional connection with the past or future.


I will give the video a watch when I have a chance. My wife has changed somewhat with me, but as most of the other videos posted were so graphic, I could not convince her to even start watching them. The gore videos serve some purpose but I feel they may just push people further in to ignorance of factory farming, based on my sample size of my wife and immediate family haha


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> We are a very different species of animal. A chicken is not self-aware, it does not think about the future or the past,  it may have some ‘memory’ of where food is stored but it does not make an emotional connection with the past or future.
> 
> 
> I will give the video a watch when I have a chance. My wife has changed somewhat with me, but as most of the other videos posted were so graphic, I could not convince her to even start watching them. The gore videos serve some purpose but I feel they may just push people further in to ignorance of factory farming, based on my sample size of my wife and immediate family haha




What evidence do have that suggests a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering? 

You seem to put them on the same level as an unthinking robot, I don’t think that view is based on science. 

Do say only humans have self awareness is silly.

I think people need to see the graphic videos, because people act like a cow is transformed into a steak by some magical process, it was watching the graphic videos that changed my mind.


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## luutzu (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I have lost about 5kg of fat, I am not saying you can’t put on weight being vegan, you definately can.
> 
> But for me, I found that after dinner of lots of meat like I used to eat, I would feel sluggish for the rest of the night.
> 
> ...




Does it also made you moody and more of a pain in the backside? 

But you're right though. Damn it, meat doesn't taste as good as it used to after reading your lectures.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> meat doesn't taste as good as it used to after reading your lectures.




I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.

Eg, I used to love spicy chicken wings, today in Las Vegas I had roasted cauliflower cooked in hot wing sauce, man did it hit the spot.

My wife had spaghetti with vegan meat balls, turns out all the flavor comes from the pasta and sauce, beef is just basically a filler, because these vegan meat balls taste the same.

At Disney the other day I had vegan bangers and mash, again the meat in he sausage does nothing, because all the flavor comes from the mash and mushroom gravy.

Check out photos of the meals I mentioned above.

All are 100% vegan, and 100% delicious.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

Breakfast / lunch yesterday.

Wife had vegan waffles, and I had sliders made with “impossible burger”


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## Value Collector (16 January 2019)

Dinner last night.

I had another version of vegan chicken wings and we shared a vegan pizza with soy based cheese.


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## SirRumpole (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.




Yeah  think you are right. Meat is pretty tasteless really and needs some sort of sauce , gravy spices and herbs to make it interesting.

I think most of us who come from a "meat and three veg" background have been indoctrinated by our parents that meat is an essential part of our diet, but things are changing.


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## Humid (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Dinner last night.
> 
> I had another version of vegan chicken wings and we shared a vegan pizza with soy based cheese.





Value Collector said:


> Dinner last night.
> 
> I had another version of vegan chicken wings and we shared a vegan pizza with soy based cheese.




Have you figured out yet why no one comes to your bbqs...

Why does everything you make imitate meat


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## fiftyeight (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> What evidence do have that suggests a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?
> 
> You seem to put them on the same level as an unthinking robot, I don’t think that view is based on science.
> 
> ...




I did not say “a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?” I didn’t even suggest it?


To suggest chickens have the same level of self- awareness as a human is silly.


They definitely experience pain, but they experience pain and suffer differently to humans. Suffering is another example of words that have strong human sub connotation/subtext, to me anyway. To me part of suffering is dreading the future and remembering the past. I know chickens have some kind of memory of negative experiences, but I highly doubt there is an emotional response.



I agree, I wish people would watch, but the fact is they don’t. My wife and most of my immediate family flat out refused to watch them. It is a fact of life that some people are happy in their ignorance, even if they know they are blissfully ignorant. My mum is one of these. She works for DCP and deals with some horrific stuff, but when it comes to eating animals she is blissfully ignorant by choice.


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## fiftyeight (16 January 2019)

Haha I am on site at the moment at the end of a long swing of the same food everrrrrrrrrrrrry day. I dont care meat or vegan, I just need some good food!!!!!!


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## luutzu (16 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.
> 
> Eg, I used to love spicy chicken wings, today in Las Vegas I had roasted cauliflower cooked in hot wing sauce, man did it hit the spot.
> 
> ...




Yea, I had vegan meals now and then when helping my dad with some work at the temple. 

It tastes really nice. Not bland or anything. 

Been paying attention to the meat diet in general. From that doco Food.inc I was surprised to hear the amount of water it takes to feed cattles etc. 

World food supplies can't keep up at projected population. So it'll either be continued famine, war, starvation... or we could mixed up and eat less meat product, consume less milk.. switch to more plant product. 

Here's a great interview where the guy explain the inefficiency of growing all the plant feed to feed livestocks so that we then consume the same protein through their meat. 

Not to mention all the antibiotics, cruelty to animal.


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## SirRumpole (16 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Been paying attention to the meat diet in general. From that doco Food.inc I was surprised to hear the amount of water it takes to feed cattles etc.




It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.

But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.
> 
> But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.




Livestocks also drink. So the plant feeds takes up water, fed to the livestocks who also drank water. 

I think they say it takes some 50 [?] gallon of water to produce 1L of milk. 

On top of that, animal grazing damages the surroundings. There's pollution runoffs; dead grass and trees; methane etc.

To reduce land, breed more per m2; that get them sick and die... to reduce that they fed them crapload of anti-biotics. That get pass onto us consumers... we get more immune to typical viruses and so it's just a walking pandemic waiting for happen.

The argument the guy in that video made make a lot of sense. 

That there are currently hundreds of millions of people who are food insecure. i.e. going to bed hungry. There isn't enough land or resources to possibly grow all the feed to grow livestocks to feed the world's population. 

But if, instead of growing feed for animals to then feed us richer folks... the whole world could be fed with enough protein if the land and resources devoting to feeds are diverted to feeding human directly.

I don't think we all need to go strictly vegan. Just know that there are alternatives and it might be better for us and the environment.

Having said all that, I'm still eating meat though. Will try to switch... very, very slowly.


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## Value Collector (17 January 2019)

Humid said:


> Why does everything you make imitate meat




It doesn’t, what I showed was just a sample of things I have been trying while traveling.

But, I ate meat for 36 years, I didn’t become vegan because I hated the meals I was eating, I became vegan because I didn’t like the process behind creating some of the ingredients.

So if I can have a pizza with soy cheese, or bangers and mash without cattle flesh etc I am a happy chappy.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> I did not say “a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?” I didn’t even suggest it?
> 
> 
> To suggest chickens have the same level of self- awareness as a human is silly.
> ...




They don’t need to have exactly the same self awareness as humans to disserve he basic dignity of not forcing them through the slaughter process.

I think their awareness would be much closer to humans than you give them credit for.

I am Sure they don’t have the same intelligence as humans, but that’s a separate thing to self awareness and ability to suffer.

Suffering is not all about dread and remembering the past, It can be totally in the moment, I have put people through resistance to introgation training, where we restrict their ability to move around, and within a few hours they are in the hurt locker suffering, they don’t need high intelligence to suffer, they aren’t thinking about the past or the future, just wanting to get out of he stress position they are in at that moment.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.
> 
> But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.




Think about this.

You have to feed a cow 10 bowls of corn to get the same amount of calories of meat as you would get from eating just 1 bowl of corn yourself.

So, we are crops huge amounts of crops to feed to animals in feedlots, plus the animals drink loads of water, plus huge amounts of water are used and polluted to wash away their poop.

The simple stat is that there are 70 Billion animals living in factory farms, consuming vast quantities of crops.

If the cropland used to feed the animals, was used instead to crop plant based food for humans we could survive using a lot less land, water, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, fuel and antibiotics.


----------



## noirua (17 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Think about this.
> 
> You have to feed a cow 10 bowls of corn to get the same amount of calories of meat as you would get from eating just 1 bowl of corn yourself.
> 
> So, we are crops huge amounts of crops to feed to animals in feedlots, plus the animals drink loads of water, plus huge amounts of water are used and polluted to wash away their poop.




'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'

It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.

The *manure* is *used* as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. *Cow dung* "chips" are *used* in throwing contests and *cow* pie bingo is played as a game.


----------



## Humid (17 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It doesn’t, what I showed was just a sample of things I have been trying while traveling.
> 
> But, I ate meat for 36 years, I didn’t become vegan because I hated the meals I was eating, I became vegan because I didn’t like the process behind creating some of the ingredients.
> 
> So if I can have a pizza with soy cheese, or bangers and mash without cattle flesh etc I am a happy chappy.




Fair enough 
But I never really get the seafood and cheese bit and my triple cream Brie with nitrate free ham wood fire pizza is not replaceable


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

Humid said:


> Fair enough
> But I never really get the seafood and cheese bit and my triple cream Brie with nitrate free ham wood fire pizza is not replaceable




Cheese- there are plenty of good plant based pizza cheeses now that don’t require slaughtering calves and their mothers.

Pig flesh - did you watch any of the “dominion” video I linked above, if not watch the first 5 minutes or so and you will see it if all the animal farming, pig farming is probably the most horrible. 

Seafood - even if the target species is low on the self awareness and ability to suffer scale, “by catch” is a major issues, causing a lot of higher animals such as dolphins, seals, turtles, sharks etc etc to suffer, so Besides farmed mussels and oysters Which have no brains and whose farming is low impact, I avoid seafood.

———-
I think the big difference between you and I, is you look at the end product, in its neat packaged form and think “I would be crazy to give that up”, where as I look at the process, and I think “I would be crazy to eat that”


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

noirua said:


> 'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'
> 
> It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.
> 
> The *manure* is *used* as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. *Cow dung* "chips" are *used* in throwing contests and *cow* pie bingo is played as a game.




All the feed you mentioned has an impact on the environment to produce.

It uses land, water, fertilizer, insecticide etc etc to produce, all those resources would be better used to make human food directly.

Did you ever see the simpsons episode where homer attempts to make money selling bacon fat?

Bart points out that homer only got 14 cents for the fat, But Marge had paid several dollars for the bacon.

That’s like your arrguement of using cow manure as a fertilizer, what you are getting back from the manure is much less than what was stripped out by creating the cattle feed.

Also animal manure from farms is a major source of water pollution and human disease.


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

The amounts of waste are so huge they soak into ground water, and spill over and run off into water ways.

If this was human waste, it would be illegal, no farmers treat their waste to the standards that should be required.


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

This is the type of factory farming I agree with.




But factory farming is a lot different once it involves animals.


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## luutzu (19 January 2019)

noirua said:


> 'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'
> 
> It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.
> 
> The *manure* is *used* as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. *Cow dung* "chips" are *used* in throwing contests and *cow* pie bingo is played as a game.




yea, but how many of us get to enjoy the cow dung throwing contests and bingos?


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> yea, but how many of us get to enjoy the cow dung throwing contests and bingos?




Haha, as kid on my uncles dairy farm we used to play a game of chance where we jump on the cow pats, if you were lucky they were dry solid, if you were unlucky the centre was still green liquid and you sank into it, if you were really unlucky you slip and put your ass into it.

As fun as such dare games are, the unspoken horrors that happen there make such games, and the milk and cheese, seem disgustingly trivial.

Bottle feeding the calves seemed fun to a kid, until you realize that the reason you are bottle feeding them is because they have been ripped from their mother, and on Tuesday they will be thrown on a truck to the slaughter house.

But hey, people like cheese right?


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## luutzu (19 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Haha, as kid on my uncles dairy farm we used to play a game of chance where we jump on the cow pats, if you were lucky they were dry solid, if you were unlucky the centre was still green liquid and you sank into it, if you were really unlucky you slip and put your ass into it.
> 
> As fun as such dare games are, the unspoken horrors that happen there make such games, and the milk and cheese, seem disgustingly trivial.
> 
> ...




Since you put it that way... Man, you trying to ruin everyone's meal or what? 

My wife went vegan for months during her uni years after watching similar videos. When I was in VN I saw live pigs screaming as they're all stuffed into cages for shipping, turning pink from the sun burn.

Oh ey, I heard that drinking soy milk, or too much of it, stops the men's fertility and stuff.

I'll reduce my milk intake. Probably just switch to soy completely. Wife's already doing it. You're going to ruin my ice cream too man.


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## Value Collector (19 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Since you put it that way... Man, you trying to ruin everyone's meal or what?
> 
> My wife went vegan for months during her uni years after watching similar videos. When I was in VN I saw live pigs screaming as they're all stuffed into cages for shipping, turning pink from the sun burn.
> 
> ...




Soy doesn’t have negative affects on men, those studies have been debunked.

If you are really worried about affecting your hormone levels etc, then you should definately avoid drinking the milk and eating the bodies of pregnant female mammals.

Soy has “phyto-estrogen”, eg plant based estrogen, which has been proven to have no negative affects.

However, cows milk and the bodies of cows, has huge amounts of mammal hormones, which alter your internal chemistry.

So if you want to be manly, stop drinking cows milk that’s full of estrogen, and stop eating the bodies of female mammals, that contain female hormones.


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## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

So, why am I against dairy.

Watch this video from the 1 minute mark.

There is no gore, but you will see what has to happen for the mothers to keep producing milk for you, their babies are taken away at birth, and sent to slaughter so that you can have their mothers milk for your coffee.

Switching to soy milk, rice milk, almond milk, oat milk etc etc is as easy as just taking a different carton of the shelf, and you can avoid sending babies to slaughter.

The mothers are also slaughtered after 4 years of milk production, when they would normally live 20 years +


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## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Soy doesn’t have negative affects on men, those studies have been debunked.
> 
> If you are really worried about affecting your hormone levels etc, then you should definately avoid drinking the milk and eating the bodies of pregnant female mammals.
> 
> ...




Oh man, you've definitely ruined my meat eating habit. There's a reason I don't eat meat with identifiable body parts. Well, except for Chicken Feet at Yum Cha but then thinking about the stuff they steps on.

You sure about soy thing? I mean it's fine with me personally 'cause I like the taste of soy. That and I've done my part advancing Australia's population growth. 

btw, I heard from a wise, life-long vegan that some people couldn't take a vegan diet because it doesn't have enough protein or something. He was saying you don't need to go completely vegan, just more plant than usual until you get used to it.

The other guy was saying he tried a vegan restaurant once and his whole body shakes soon after he have to grab a whole BBQ chicken to get better.

Is that a sort of addiction you get off slowly. Know the mix of plant to eat for the right amount of all the protein and stuff?


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## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Oh man, you've definitely ruined my meat eating habit. There's a reason I don't eat meat with identifiable body parts. Well, except for Chicken Feet at Yum Cha but then thinking about the stuff they steps on.
> 
> You sure about soy thing? I mean it's fine with me personally 'cause I like the taste of soy. That and I've done my part advancing Australia's population growth.
> 
> ...




Yep, the soy phyto-estrogen thing has been debunked, it turns out that phyto-estrogen, eg estrogen from plants actually blocks the negative affects of regular estrogen.

Plants have heaps of protein, Infact all protein comes from plants, no animal can produce amino acids, it all comes from plants.

Think about it, the biggest and strongest primate eg the gorilla is completely vegan, so are the animals that people eat to get their “protein”

So if you can’t get protein from plants, where do all these vegan animal like cows get theirs?

——-_

CHECK OUT THESE VEGAN BODY BUILDERS, I bet they would fold most of us in half, shows you don’t need to be cruel to be buff.


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## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

This body builder has NEVER eaten meat, vegetarian since birth, and vegan in his adult life.


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## qldfrog (24 January 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-are-the-real-weapons-of-climate-destruction
From the guardian...so must be the source of truth
This match my understanding of a well managed ecosystem including sustainable hunting, woodfire burning,etc


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## Value Collector (24 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-are-the-real-weapons-of-climate-destruction
> From the guardian...so must be the source of truth
> This match my understanding of a well managed ecosystem including sustainable hunting, woodfire burning,etc




It would be impossible to produce the amount of cattle that is currently produced without feedlots.

And I would not call the destruction of natural bushland and actual natural ecosystems to create empty paddocks producing nothing but grass for cattle a “healthy ecosystem”.

There is a reason most meat is produced in factory farms, and it has been known since Adam smith wrote the wealth of nations.

The reason is grazing land is not very productive, the industry can produce far more meat, for far less cost, by using the land to grow energy rich crops like corn and feeding the crops to the animals kept in pens.

This process has allowed the number of cattle that exist to explode to numbers never before seen on planet earth, and hence the methane levels also rise.

The only solution is to stop producing so many animals, and instead eat the crops ourselves, and let unneeded marginal farmland return to nature.


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## noirua (27 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It would be impossible to produce the amount of cattle that is currently produced without feedlots.
> 
> And I would not call the destruction of natural bushland and actual natural ecosystems to create empty paddocks producing nothing but grass for cattle a “healthy ecosystem”.
> 
> ...




It depends if you are taking only an Australian view or worldwide.  Many countries don't have marginal farm land. In fact there are curtailments in Europe where much of the land is left fallow. Fair enough, in places like Corner Gate, Phillipson in Far North South Australia the grazing area is enormous just to feed few cattle.


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## Value Collector (28 January 2019)

noirua said:


> It depends if you are taking only an Australian view or worldwide.  Many countries don't have marginal farm land. In fact there are curtailments in Europe where much of the land is left fallow. Fair enough, in places like Corner Gate, Phillipson in Far North South Australia the grazing area is enormous just to feed few cattle.




My point is, if the population increased the amount of plants based foods in the diet, we would require much less farmland.

So those farmlands that are less profitable, would be able to be returned to nature or used for some other purpose.

Or at least we would be able to stop clearing natural bushlands to create more and more farms.


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## luutzu (29 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It would be impossible to produce the amount of cattle that is currently produced without feedlots.
> 
> And I would not call the destruction of natural bushland and actual natural ecosystems to create empty paddocks producing nothing but grass for cattle a “healthy ecosystem”.
> 
> ...




Less war and famine too I reckon.

Don't remember the stats, but heard that a very large chunk of land cleared in places like S/America are to simply grow feed for livestocks.

With urbanisation, high population growth yet much of the fertile land are dedicated to provide feed to animals whose meat are only affordable to the well off half... some half the world's human population are food insecure.

That's almost as dumb as turning corn to ethanol for fuel.


----------



## Tink (29 January 2019)

*Has vegan activism gone too far?*

An interactive map that shows Australians where the nation’s farms and abattoirs are has been praised by animal rights activists, but labelled “despicable” by the federal government.

Agriculture Minister David Littleproud hit out at the map launched by animal rights group Aussie Farms, saying the “stupidity” of activists might “ironically” cause the death of the very animals they claim are being exploited.

The Nationals MP said the map detailing the location of these properties and abattoirs published by Aussie Farms, including home addresses, could pose biosecurity risks by encouraging vigilantes to break onto properties.

Speaking on The Project, National Farmers’ Federation president Fiona Simson even claimed Aussie Farms was engaging in “terrorist activity” by subjecting Australia’s “family farms” to such unverified exposure.

“Here in Australia we are about family farms... they’re mums and dads and kids... so, by having their private and personal details published... I think really it is stepping over the line,” she said.

Mr Littleproud said the map is promoting illegal activity.

“They’re creating an attack list for animals activists to go and trespass, to break the law,” Mr Littleproud told ABC Radio National on Tuesday.

https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/a...p/news-story/d8f4774c61e6c2e2cc42468ce80d0a44


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## SirRumpole (29 January 2019)

Tink said:


> An interactive map that shows Australians where the nation’s farms and abattoirs are has been praised by animal rights activists, but labelled “despicable” by the federal government.




Interesting dichotomy, public interest vs individual privacy.

Basically I think it's likely to divide the community and possibly stir up violent confrontations, but it's also just putting the truth in easily accessible form.

Should people be banned from publishing such data ? I don't think so but at the same time I don't think it's particularly responsible to do so.

I'd be interested to hear what VC thinks about it.


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## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

Tink said:


> *Has vegan activism gone too far?*
> 
> An interactive map that shows Australians where the nation’s farms and abattoirs are has been praised by animal rights activists, but labelled “despicable” by the federal government.
> 
> ...




The question you pose shouldn't be "Has veganism gone to far" it should be has "Activism gone to far"

at the end of the day, all the information on the map is public information, they have just aggregated it.

The real reason the farmers are worried is because they only survive because the average person has no idea what goes on inside of these production facilities or what they are like, calling them farms is a massive stretch.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting dichotomy, public interest vs individual privacy.
> 
> Basically I think it's likely to divide the community and possibly stir up violent confrontations, but it's also just putting the truth in easily accessible form.
> 
> ...




I talked about this the other day with a friend, who thought activists entering a property should be charged with trespass.

My question to him was, "If your neighbour locked his dog in his car on a hot day, and refused to let him out, would you enter the property, break the window and save the dog"

His answer was yes, he felt the dogs welfare over ruled the trespass laws, and he is correct.

In Australia it is actually illegal to commit animal cruelty, and the 1979 legislation extends that to denying vet treatment to animals in your care.

The reason police almost never end up placing charges that stick most of the time, is because the "activists" always find animals in these facilities that require vet treatment or who are being denied basic welfare, So just like you would be within your rights to enter a property to provide emergency care to a dog trapped in a care, so are you within your rights to enter a pig or chicken farm to provide care to an animal that is being mistreated by the people looking to profit from the sale of its body.


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## noirua (29 January 2019)

Going on a vegan diet is up to an individual.  I was always told that those who quit smoking are worse antagonists than those who have never smoked. Those who become vegans are equally so. If everyone on planet Earth became a vegan most of the population would starve to death. I say no more.


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## noirua (29 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I talked about this the other day with a friend, who thought activists entering a property should be charged with trespass.
> 
> My question to him was, "If your neighbour locked his dog in his car on a hot day, and refused to let him out, would you enter the property, break the window and save the dog"
> 
> ...




I spent some time in the states and the attitude to an intruder is fill them full of lead. That did happen when a man heard a disturbance downstairs and found an intruder and emptied his gun into him. The police arrived, shook his hand and said, "well done".
On another occasion it went pear shaped. A man shot an intruder dead. The police arrived and mistakenly thought he was the intruder and shot him dead as well. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/03/us/man-mistaken-for-intruder-and-shot-by-police-trnd/index.html


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## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

noirua said:


> Going on a vegan diet is up to an individual.  I was always told that those who quit smoking are worse antagonists than those who have never smoked. Those who become vegans are equally so. If everyone on planet Earth became a vegan most of the population would starve to death. I say no more.




Why do you think most people would stave to death?

We would have far less mouths to feed, eg we currently are feeding over 70 Billion animals, if we didn't have to feed the 70 Billion + animals, we could focus on feeding the humans.

I am not saying every person in the third world etc, should turn vegan, just our western food systems should start moving away from producing animals, and focus on producing plant based foods.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> so are you within your rights to enter a pig or chicken farm to provide care to an animal that is being mistreated by the people looking to profit from the sale of its body.




In theory yes, but as far as the law goes ?

What does the law say about animal mistreatment ? Just the fact that an animal is on a farm is not mistreatment according to the law even though it may be in your opinion.

I can see nasty things happening if activism goes too far in this area, even though the activists may be right on occasions.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

noirua said:


> I spent some time in the states and the attitude to an intruder is fill them full of lead. That did happen when a man heard a disturbance downstairs and found an intruder and emptied his gun into him. The police arrived, shook his hand and said, "well done".
> On another occasion it went pear shaped. A man shot an intruder dead. The police arrived and mistakenly though he was the intruder and shot him dead as well.




Yeah, what's your point? are you saying we should move to the American gun culture?


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> In theory yes, but as far as the law goes ?
> 
> What does the law say about animal mistreatment ? Just the fact that an animal is on a farm is not mistreatment according to the law even though it may be in your opinion.
> 
> I can see nasty things happening if activism goes too far in this area, even though the activists may be right on occasions.




The fact is these "farms" are not really "farms" as the public would see it.

And if every time they activists enter they are finding animals that need vet care and are being mistreated, they can't really be found guilty, hence why they tend to get off without charge.

The activists aren't just randomly raiding properties, they generally conduct a lot of research, and often when they find a producer who they are pretty sure is mistreating animals, they do covert missions to plant hidden cameras etc to get evidence (which is probably illegal, but hey they give ****) 

Once they have the evidence they will stage a larger scale protest, and arrange to remove the animals that are suffering if they can.

Take a look at the hidden camera footage of on this "Farm", its not overly graphic, but see if you yourself would say this facility is a farm?


----------



## noirua (29 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting dichotomy, public interest vs individual privacy.
> 
> Basically I think it's likely to divide the community and possibly stir up violent confrontations, but it's also just putting the truth in easily accessible form.
> 
> ...




I think the makers of the map and the activists who praised it should be sentenced to 6 months cleaning out pigsties and collecting cow pats.


----------



## Darc Knight (29 January 2019)

Tink said:


> *Has vegan activism gone too far?*
> 
> An interactive map that shows Australians where the nation’s farms and abattoirs are has been praised by animal rights activists, but labelled “despicable” by the federal government.
> 
> ...




"A Nationals MP" ......... "Speaking on The Project, National Farmers’ Federation president Fiona Simpson"
These people wouldn't be biased and pushing a certain agenda would they 

Be careful what you post VC, vids of Bodybuilders juiced to the gills on Steroids, particularly IFBB Pros isn't credible. Its all about endorsements from dirty supplement companies.

The trend now for strength athletes is to go full carnivore. I couldn't/wouldn't do it but I know a World Champion and some other very strong people who do.

Maybe animal products should be outlawed.Sticking live chicks into grinders and all the other atrocities that happen is just wrong.
Anyone else notice people who Hunt tend to be or become pi$$ poor people ethically?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> "A Nationals MP" ......... "Speaking on The Project, National Farmers’ Federation president Fiona Simpson"
> These people wouldn't be biased and pushing a certain agenda would they
> 
> *Be careful what you post VC, vids of Bodybuilders juiced to the gills on Steroids, particularly IFBB Pros isn't credible. Its all about endorsements from dirty supplement companies.
> ...




I believe the fitness/gym muscle crew are eating human placentas now to give them strength, the poor little small balled darlings.

How I wish I'd collected all the Gumnut birth placentas, and the bastards' births placentas, and the grandchildrens' births placentas.

At the going rate these muscled muppets pay I estimate somewhere between $250 and $500 thousand would be a realistic estimate.

I couldn't touch them myself. Gimme a steak or a pork chop or some veal any old day.

gg


----------



## Darc Knight (29 January 2019)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I believe the fitness/gym muscle crew are eating human placentas now to give them strength, the poor little small balled darlings.
> 
> How I wish I'd collected all the Gumnut birth placentas, and the bastards' births placentas, and the grandchildrens' births placentas.
> 
> ...




That was a trend years ago. Seems to have faded now. Some shocking stuff happens. Because a lot of Bodybuilders have body image problems they are good targets for any "next big thing" product. Supplement companies are scum bags.
Some women still use placentas as a beauty treatment I'm told.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

That would be


Darc Knight said:


> "A Nationals MP" ......... "Speaking on The Project, National Farmers’ Federation president Fiona Simpson"
> These people wouldn't be biased and pushing a certain agenda would they
> 
> Be careful what you post VC, vids of Bodybuilders juiced to the gills on Steroids, particularly IFBB Pros isn't credible. Its all about endorsements from dirty supplement companies.
> ...




Which of the body builders I posted use steroids?

As far as I know they are all clean eating type vegans.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I couldn't touch them myself. Gimme a steak or a pork chop or some veal any old day.
> 
> gg




Is there really a difference?


----------



## Darc Knight (30 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> That would be
> 
> 
> Which of the body builders I posted use steroids?
> ...




The biggest scam in Bodybuilding etc is people on Steroids advertising Supplements. The steroids make you amazingly big and ripped. You either claim "natty" or avoid answering the question of steroid use. People then associate your amazing body with the Supplements you endorse. The second biggest scam is Personal Trainers on Steroids - "you let me train you (for a fee) and you can look like me".
Back to your videos. I scanned those vids of yours, for that I'll never forgive you. The one with the young fellas (called Bro's), two aren't real big and just good lighting, fake tans and a pump makes then look like they even lift. One is certainly geared and probably not just Steroids but also using a lot more dangerous cutting drugs like Clenbuterol.
The IFBB is a non tested Bodybuilding federation - where the big boys go. I've been lifting for over 30 years due to an involvement in Martial Arts, Boxing and various Sports, I've known a lot of Steroid users, and a few dealers. (I haven't taken Steroids but have tried two PEDs). I've known two IFBB competitors, one open about his use, the other denied use and was ridiculed by other competitive Bodybuilders. To compete in the IFBB you pretty much need to be on Steroids as basically everyone else is.


----------



## Darc Knight (30 January 2019)

That being said, I agree with what you're doing VC. We wouldn't/shouldn't treat other Humans the way we do Animals, so why do we? Just because they're weaker - and that's wrong!


----------



## qldfrog (30 January 2019)

Yes high priced australian sheep placenta beauty products in luxury and airport shops in china.
I have nothing against this.less waste but not keen on it myself


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> The biggest scam in Bodybuilding etc is people on Steroids advertising Supplements. The steroids make you amazingly big and ripped. You either claim "natty" or avoid answering the question of steroid use. People then associate your amazing body with the Supplements you endorse. The second biggest scam is Personal Trainers on Steroids - "you let me train you (for a fee) and you can look like me".
> Back to your videos. I scanned those vids of yours, for that I'll never forgive you. The one with the young fellas (called Bro's), two aren't real big and just good lighting, fake tans and a pump makes then look like they even lift. One is certainly geared and probably not just Steroids but also using a lot more dangerous cutting drugs like Clenbuterol.
> The IFBB is a non tested Bodybuilding federation - where the big boys go. I've been lifting for over 30 years due to an involvement in Martial Arts, Boxing and various Sports, I've known a lot of Steroid users, and a few dealers. (I haven't taken Steroids but have tried two PEDs). I've known two IFBB competitors, one open about his use, the other denied use and was ridiculed by other competitive Bodybuilders. To compete in the IFBB you pretty much need to be on Steroids as basically everyone else is.




Either way, steroid users generally eat loads of meat, right?

Even if those guys are on steroids (which I am not convinced off)
The video clearly shows you don’t need to eat meat, if some one is plannng on using animal products and steroids to get big, they can simply switch the animal products for plant based foods, the steoroids arguement is a red herring, because most steroid users are not vegan.

I linked the videos to simply show that you don’t need animal products to get big, you can get the same results from plant based foods, whether you choose to use steroids or not is a side issue, and not related to your food choices.


----------



## Darc Knight (30 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Either way, steroid users generally eat loads of meat, right?
> 
> Even if those guys are on steroids (which I am not convinced off)
> The video clearly shows you don’t need to eat meat, if some one is plannng on using animal products and steroids to get big, they can simply switch the animal products for plant based foods, the steoroids arguement is a red herring, because most steroid users are not vegan.
> ...




As a natural you'd certainly be at a disadvantage from a hormonal perspective not eating Meat. As far as I know Beef is far superior for boosting your natural hormones.
Interestingly you don't see a lot of Vegan Top athletes, sure a few but not the same percentage as in the general population. A vegan athlete's diet is much harder to get right.
More likely to need Roids if a Vegan Bodybuilder too.

When I've trained eating limited Meat for a few years I didn't look great, the lack of animal fats I'm assuming.


----------



## Darc Knight (30 January 2019)

VC, if wanna check out the limits of a natural Bodybuilder check out Layne Norton. A Man who lives and breathes natural Bodybuilding and Powerlifting, did his PhD on Protein. Probably the most knowledgeable and experienced on the subject.
Compare his condition to anyone else claiming natural.


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> As a natural you'd certainly be at a disadvantage from a hormonal perspective not eating Meat. As far as I know Beef is far superior for boosting your natural hormones.
> Interestingly you don't see a lot of Vegan Top athletes, sure a few but not the same percentage as in the general population. A vegan athlete's diet is much harder to get right.
> More likely to need Roids if a Vegan Bodybuilder too.
> 
> When I've trained eating limited Meat for a few years I didn't look great, the lack of animal fats I'm assuming.




The only USA weight lifter to qualify in the last olympics was vegan.

I think you should do a bit more research about vegan athletes.


----------



## Darc Knight (30 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> The only USA weight lifter to qualify in the last olympics was vegan.
> 
> I think you should do a bit more research about vegan athletes.




See previous post.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 April 2019)

Were the protests today reasonable ?

OK in public places but keep off private property I say.

 I sympathise with their views but if you annoy people in the process of your protest it's counterproductive imo.


----------



## Value Collector (8 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Were the protests today reasonable ?
> 
> OK in public places but keep off private property I say.
> 
> I sympathise with their views but if you annoy people in the process of your protest it's counterproductive imo.




I haven’t seen anything about the protests.

But as I have mentioned before, we are dealing with living, feeling animals, so minor things like trespass laws are irrelevant when it comes to shining a light on their suffering.

Eg. I think we would all agree laws against trespass and break and enter take a back seat if you are walking into someone’s land to smash a window to save 1 dog from a hot car.

So walking into someone’s land who is abusing animals on a mass scale is not extreme, the abuse is.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> So walking into someone’s land who is abusing animals on a mass scale is not extreme, the abuse is.




Isn't that a job for the appropriate authorities ?


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## Tink (8 April 2019)

Here it is, VC

38 people were arrested.


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## Value Collector (8 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Isn't that a job for the appropriate authorities ?




So if there is no one shining a light on these things, how are authorities going to know what happens.

Also, how are laws going to change if people aren’t showing what is happening?

I know a lot of the footage that caused me to become vegan was taken illegally.

Without seeing what was actually happening behind the curtain, I used to believe in the happy cow myths


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## Value Collector (8 April 2019)

Tink said:


> Here it is, VC
> 
> 38 people were arrested.





It’s not what I would recommend.

But it’s a pretty big issue they are trying to draw attention to.


----------



## PZ99 (9 April 2019)

Unfortunately, this sort of illegal militant behaviour will only evoke anger from the very people they're trying to draw attention from and that's exactly what happened in Melbourne.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/6602af8e996426c749837bb10c7ad65c

Talk about throwing stones from a glasshouse.


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## IFocus (9 April 2019)

Nice to see some real activism next stop the banks and government.


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## Value Collector (9 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Unfortunately, this sort of illegal militant behaviour will only evoke anger from the very people they're trying to draw attention from and that's exactly what happened in Melbourne.
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/6602af8e996426c749837bb10c7ad65c
> 
> Talk about throwing stones from a glasshouse.




Views of the animals rights film that they were trying to promote have gone through the roof.

So while you will always have the idiots posting "Bacon" in response to a serious issue, a lot more eyes are people focused on the message.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Views of the animals rights film that they were trying to promote have gone through the roof.
> 
> So while you will always have the idiots posting "Bacon" in response to a serious issue, a lot more eyes are people focused on the message.




What is your evidence that "views of the animals rights film that they were trying to promote have gone through the roof " ?

gg


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## Value Collector (9 April 2019)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What is your evidence that "views of the animals rights film that they were trying to promote have gone through the roof " ?
> 
> gg




I have a few vegan groups on my Facebook news feed, and one of them had the makers of the film talking about it.

I don’t doubt there claim, images of their signs have been broadcast on national tv and social media round the world


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## wayneL (16 April 2019)

Stolen from FaceAche, from a guy called Tom Marland:
****
“Vegandals”

I did a post last week about “vegans”. It went a bit viral - it reached 500,000 people. Not bad for sitting on the front deck on my iPhone.

I’ve rightly coped a bit of constructive criticism from some vegans about painting them all as vandals. 

There are many vegans quietly chewing on their lettuce, sipping on soy lattes minding their own business. 

But for some it’s a chance to shout down and impose their idiotic ideology on others. 

To avoid offending the former, I’ll started calling the later, Vegandals.

I’m happy for vegans to eat the food I don’t and I’m happy for them not to eat the meat that I do. 

But I can’t cop these vegandals. 

They want both their food and mine too!

A vegandal’s first issue is farming, killing and eating animals for food is not only cruel but unnecessary.

A vegandal’s second proposition is that livestock emit a lot of methane and thus are bad for the environment. Livestock also eat crops and drink a lot of water that could be used by humans.

The first reality is that livestock (cows, sheep, goats etc) eat grass (cellulose) and through their highly refined rumens are able to convert that grass into protein. 

58% of Australia’s land mass grows grass naturally. It’s not suitable for farming but is highly adaptive to extensive (non intensive) livestock grazing.

Livestock do eat fodder crops on farms and in feedlots. However 86% of this produce is inedible to humans.

Vegandals argue that those inputs could be better put to growing plant based protein. 

Putting aside the fact plant based protein tastes like paper and needs a lot of sauce and wine to digest, it is also very hard and expensive to grow in the first instance and even harder to grow to a standard that someone could (or would want) to eat.

You only have to walk into a Coles or Woolworths and see the wonderful fresh produce on display and then walk out the back and see how much is thrown away to work out humans are picky bastards.

You only have to go to a packing shed and see what is thrown away as “seconds” to work out that growing fruit and vegetables is a hard business.

You only have to drive past a crop wilting in the paddock to work our markets and seasonal conditions are fickle.

Simply converting areas used for grazing livestock or used to supply feed for livestock to areas for human consumption isn’t a simple process.

The amount of water, fertiliser, pesticide, investment and management required to produce commercial crops for human consumption is immense.

Crops like chick pea, soya bean and mung beans are also very difficult to grow. 

Mung beans aren’t colloquially referred to as “mongrel beans” for better marketing.

Pulse crops are highly water reliant, are highly susceptible to seasonal changes (too hot, too cold), are loved by insects and are thirsty on soil nutrients. 

They need even larger amounts of fertiliser, herbicide and insecticides than conventional crops to survive. This is even before you have to harvest them, fumigate them, store, transport and sell them.

Pulse crops are usually grown as rotation crops around other more reliable and consistent crops like cotton, sorghum, wheat, cane or other vegetables.

If the crop comes off, it’s a bonus. If India impose a 40% tariff on imports because we beat them in cricket or won’t give them a coal mine - it’s a bugger. If it fails completely it is ploughed in as fertiliser as it’s a good legume for fixing nitrogen for other crops.

Vegandals also tend to like organic produce. You can grow organic pulse crops but the risks are even higher and more unpredictable.

Organic farming is great but it also needs more plowing (diesel), more soil disturbance (sediment run off) and more water. More ploughing also releases more soil carbon and greater inputs to replace. These inputs are usually replaced by livestock grazing through integrated management systems.

High yield organic produce for human consumption can’t be grown everywhere because not everywhere has enough water or the right climate to produce them.

The problem with pulse crops (or any crop) is they aren’t very flexible. For instance, if it’s dry you can move a cow to paddock with grass, put them on agistment, feed them or put in a feedlot. 

You can’t pick up a pulse crop and move to where it has rained. They just die.

Trying to rely solely on plant based protein opens up a really problematic situation - starvation.

So you’ll either need bigger dams (eek), more rainfall or you’ll need more water efficient, pest resistant varieties. These will need some form of GMO or synthetic manipulation. 

I have clients who are organic wheat farmers. They were the only organic wheat farmer in Australia to plant and harvest spelt (gluten free) wheat last year. They won’t do it again as it didn’t make enough money for the risk.

On their normal crops they aim for 1 bumper crop in 10. 4 out of 10 to break even and 5 failures. Failure is not producing enough to harvest for human consumption. This is in 25 inch rainfall on deep black soil country. 

They only survive because they can offset the failed crops by feeding the stubble off to livestock or selling the lower yield crop as hay (for livestock) or feedlot mix (for livestock). The livestock is the underwriter. Without the livestock there would be no wheat farmer. 

The prime hard goes into bread. The remainder into making the sausage.

Admittedly there are some exceptional farmers who produce crops year in year out purely for human consumption. They are rarer than a Greens voter in Barcaldine but they are out there. However the bank only loans them money to plant on the basis that there is a fall back market if the seasons don’t work - that’s livestock markets.

Some of these really exceptional farmers farm without artificial fertiliser, herbicides or pesticides. However the large majority are zero til and rely heavily on artificial inputs to survive.

The risks for a farmer to grow produce at a high enough level for human produce is difficult. Asking them to do it without the back up of livestock is impossible as it is commercially unviable.

If a vegandal is happy with non organic and GMO pulse crops - the fun doesn’t stop there.

The irony is lost on most vegandals when they champion protein crop farmers over livestock producers, when one has to consider the amount of “animals” that are killed through farming. Farmers hate bugs so they spray them. Birds eat bugs. Lizards eat bugs. No bugs no birds and lizards. 

Farming paddocks also aren’t great for trees. One, they do damage to tractors when they drive into them and also it’s a pain to change the GPS to get around them.

However, intensively farmed areas are important as they produce our high quality food and fibre. But so is grazing in grasslands and woodlands as an offset.

Pulse crops don’t grow under trees but cows can.

Also, as I’ve said before, to produce 1 kg of tomatoes takes 10 times more inputs than to produce 1 kg of chicken. That’s because a chicken can convert lower quality feed into higher quality protein. A tomato converts water and nutrients into - well a tomato. To get that tomato to a high enough quality so it won’t be thrown in the seconds bin needs higher inputs.

I’m honestly not sure what the conversion of soya bean v meat to protein is. It matters little because no one in their right mind would grow a soya bean crop for human consumption without the fall back to sell their lower quality product for livestock feed.

A soya bean doesn’t exist without a highly refined ruminant.

I know it’s hard for some to see livestock farmed, trucked and slaughtered.  But we have to put our big boy and big girl pants on and understand that our food sources - vegetable, fruit, grains and meat are all inter-related and reliant upon each other. One can’t survive without the other.

We also have to understand the complex market dynamics that goes into producing our food and the huge risks our farmers take each day.

Ideas of flipping our entire food production system on its head because it suits your ethical viewpoint might make a cool Uni assignment but it’s not based in any reality or rationality.

I’ve also nominated “vegandal” for the word of the year. Trade marks pending.


----------



## Value Collector (18 April 2019)

tinhat said:


> God knows what sort of life these chickens live.




They don’t really get a life.

The females are killed at 4-6 weeks old, the males are killed the day they hatch.

The male chicks are considered worthless to both the egg and meat industry, so are either shredded alive or choked to death on carbon dioxide.

Watch he first 30 seconds of this video to see how cheap (and expensive) chicken and eggs are created.


----------



## aus_trader (19 April 2019)

tinhat said:


> What I find interesting is how cheap chicken meat is now. $3 per kg at the supermarket (as advertised by Aldi). God knows what sort of life these chickens live.
> 
> What are the margins? What are we eating?



I know mate, scary. I have also seen similar priced cuts like chicken Maryland and chicken wings at the local shops and supermarkets.

Rather than being happy to pay less for food, I am concerned when I see $3/Kg chicken and $1/Lt milk ! Which country are we living in ? 1st, 2nd or 3rd world ? Even if there was a category below 3rd, they would treat their animals with more respect by valuing their life (meat) or their life giving products (milk, eggs) at a decent price.

I am not vegetarian or anything or not trying to influence anyone. Neither am I a farmer or producer trying to increase my own profits. But I would like to see some form of animal justice, and that baby male chicken slaughter video really showed the attitude and value given to animals.


----------



## aus_trader (19 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> They don’t really get a life.
> 
> The females are killed at 4-6 weeks old, the males are killed the day they hatch.
> 
> ...





Thank you for posting Value Collector. I don't want to give a 'like' since it could be confused with being interpreted in the wrong way. As in if I like the slaughter. Absolutely not, this is appalling to see newly hatched chicks suffering like that. Some of them took multiple shredding blade cuts before the suffering ended, how cruel !


----------



## So_Cynical (19 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Watch he first 30 seconds of this video to see how cheap (and expensive) chicken and eggs are created.





~
That's brutal...somehow that just should not be allowed, dont know what the alternatives are but thats just wrong.


----------



## Value Collector (19 April 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> ~
> dont know what the alternatives are but thats just wrong.




I chose to slowly start cutting out and substituting animal products, it took me a while but I am now practically 100% vegan.

The only animal products I eat every now and then are mussels and honey, which aren’t technically “vegan”, but mussels don’t have a brain so I am fine with eating them.


----------



## Value Collector (19 April 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Thank you for posting Value Collector. I don't want to give a 'like' since it could be confused with being interpreted in the wrong way. As in if I like the slaughter. Absolutely not, this is appalling to see newly hatched chicks suffering like that. Some of them took multiple shredding blade cuts before the suffering ended, how cruel !




Yeah it is pretty crazy, you can see why the vegan groups are protesting so hard against this stuff.

Unfortunately a lot of people in the media try and shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message.

This documentary is based on Australian farming practices, all footage is of Australian farms and slaughter houses, it’s the video the protesters have been trying to get Australians to see, because for some reason the average person seems to think Australian farms and slaughter houses are humane.


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## aus_trader (19 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah it is pretty crazy, you can see why the vegan groups are protesting so hard against this stuff.
> 
> Unfortunately a lot of people in the media try and shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message.
> 
> This documentary is based on Australian farming practices, all footage is of Australian farms and slaughter houses, it’s the video the protesters have been trying to get Australians to see, because for some reason the average person seems to think Australian farms and slaughter houses are humane.





As consumers we need to be aware of these practices. Only then there can be changes made at a State and National level to protect the welfare of these farm animals. The problem is as you said, the information is hidden and people are not aware of what they are consuming.

Yes it's going to cost more to purchase animal products produced using humane practices but I think most people will be happy to know how it was produced and pay the higher price. If on the other hand the longer the injustice practices continue and the more awareness of it happens people will either change the system or they will more away from consuming animal products.

We don't need more quantity at the cheapest prices, but what we need is quality I think. So if buying some chicken or ham or milk becomes more of a luxury type item, personally I say 'so be it'. If that was the case, I will only buy meat, poultry, milk, eggs and any other animal products that I know has been produced like in the good old days allowed to run around freely in farms and fed and looked after and treated kindly.

The problem now is it's quite hard to find such quality produce as most stuff is mass produced in confined spaces such as battery chickens and other animals as shown in the video documentary. I am going to reduce the animal product consumption and replace it with vegetarian options. I think my family will be healthier with such a change as well.

Thank you very much for sharing this information. I've been living in the dark, being unaware of this kind of animal mistreatment.


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## MARKETWINNER (19 April 2019)

Will the following happen?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...20--male-chicks-could-avoid-death-by-grinder/

https://www.cnet.com/news/how-crispr-could-save-6-billion-chickens-from-the-meat-grinder/


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## Ann (19 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah it is pretty crazy, you can see why the vegan groups are protesting so hard against this stuff.






MARKETWINNER said:


> Will the following happen?
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...20--male-chicks-could-avoid-death-by-grinder/
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/news/how-crispr-could-save-6-billion-chickens-from-the-meat-grinder/




This is not an appropriate thread to be talking about these things guys. Inghams produce chicken meat. Both male and female birds are grown for meat. Chicks don't go through the grinder for chicken meat as they use both sexes for food. It just happens for egg layers. Go and take your protest over to FRM thread.


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## Value Collector (19 April 2019)

Ann said:


> This is not an appropriate thread to be talking about these things guys. Inghams produce chicken meat. Both male and female birds are grown for meat. Chicks don't go through the grinder for chicken meat as they use both sexes for food. It just happens for egg layers. Go and take your protest over to FRM thread.




Yes, any chicks that are found to be weak, sick or have deformation are still send to the grinder.

The fate of the healthy chicks in the meat industry isn’t any better either.




This stuff is relevant to the future Ingham. Change is happening eventually raising animals for food will be obselete, growing just the meat itself, or even complete moves to plant based diets will happen.


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## aus_trader (19 April 2019)

MARKETWINNER said:


> Will the following happen?
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...20--male-chicks-could-avoid-death-by-grinder/
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/news/how-crispr-could-save-6-billion-chickens-from-the-meat-grinder/



Certainly hope so


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## Value Collector (20 April 2019)

MARKETWINNER said:


> Will the following happen?
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...20--male-chicks-could-avoid-death-by-grinder/
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/news/how-crispr-could-save-6-billion-chickens-from-the-meat-grinder/




As I mentioned below, the weak sick or deformed will likely still get minced.

Not to mention all the females end up going to slaughter any way once their temporary use as egg laying machines ends after 12 months or so.


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## aus_trader (20 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> As I mentioned below, the weak sick or deformed will likely still get minced.
> 
> Not to mention all the females end up going to slaughter any way once their temporary use as egg laying machines ends after 12 months or so.



True. I suppose it's still a small step in the right direction.

I may be dreaming, but it would be great if there was a way to purchase the animal products that are produced in the old fashioned way. There was a time long ago when farm animals were allowed to run around in large open spaces, treated well with kindness right until put down including the slaughter process. Till then I would be a minimalist consumer.


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## Value Collector (20 April 2019)

aus_trader said:


> True. I suppose it's still a small step in the right direction.
> 
> I may be dreaming, but it would be great if there was a way to purchase the animal products that are produced in the old fashioned way. There was a time long ago when farm animals were allowed to run around in large open spaces, treated well with kindness right until put down including the slaughter process. Till then I would be a minimalist consumer.




I won’t eat any meat until the day we can grow it in a lab without having to slaughter an animal, there are so many great alternatives these days.

I don’t think there is a humane way to kill some thing that doesn’t want to die.

————-

If any one is interested in learning about alternatives, the 22 day vegan challenge is a good place to start.

https://challenge22.com/

Or I am happy to chat via PM to any one that needs ideas or tips about how to replace animal products.

When I first decided to go Vegan I thought is would be really hard, But I found a great Vegan community on Face Book and it turned out to be Very easy.

Becoming a vegan is probably the thing that I am most proud of, to me it out weighs all my other achievements including my military service and business achievements, because it’s something I feel is truly the best moral path, and is about helping others, but still requires you to go against the status quo with little or no support from from most other people around you.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I won’t eat any meat until the day we can grow it in a lab without having to slaughter an animal, there are so many great alternatives these days.




How about fish ?


----------



## Ann (20 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> How about fish ?




That would be a pescatarian, not a vegan to eat fish Rumpy.



Value Collector said:


> I won’t eat any meat until the day we can grow it in a lab without having to slaughter an animal, there are so many great alternatives these days.




Feel free to eat your manufactured, 'naturally' flavoured, enzyme filled, fake foods which your body and immune system won't recognize folks. In the past vegans ate whole foods and were very healthy apart from the lack of the essential Vitamin B12, which is only available from meat or synthetic vitamin supplements. Nowadays as veganism is becoming such high fashion demand foodstuff, the manufacturers are going to be gearing up in conjunction with the supermarkets to bring you an array of faked and tasty looking 'steaks', 'hamburgers', 'schnitzels', 'sausages', 'bacon' 'cheese' even vegan pizza. It will be great, you will be able to congratulate yourself that you are 'saving the animals' by eating 'Frankenfoods', the 'meat' you eat when you are not eating meat. Before you put the first bite into your mouth you need to read a well researched book called  'Swallow This' by Joanna Blythman.

I am going to stay with my home cooked roast chicken, roast potato, baked pumpkin, cauliflower and green beans swathed in organic butter, followed by poached fresh pears and cream tonight. Before I take my first mouthful I will thank the creature who gave up its life so I may live. As far as the emotive chic grinding is concerned, nature has a natural protection, it is called shock. The chics will feel nothing, it is too quick.


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## Value Collector (20 April 2019)

————-


SirRumpole said:


> How about fish ?




For 6 months or so I was eating fish before I went vegan but now I don’t except for some shell fish like mussels occasionally (they don’t have brains, not technically vegan, but Harmless, so I am not a dictionary definition vegan.)

The fishing industries affect on intelligent sea life like dolphins, sharks, turtles etc is huge, and I believe fish can suffer so I avoid them.


----------



## Value Collector (20 April 2019)

Ann said:


> That would be a pescatarian, not a vegan to eat fish Rumpy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My diet has never been healthier.

That photo I posted above is of a vegan schitzel, which was literally a pattie made of veggies, with spicy bread crumbs, with tomato based sauce and some vegan cheese.

If you think a hormone, antibiotic filled broken body made of saturated fat and cholesterol of a bird that lived in its own **** is healthier, you need your head read.

————

Offcourse there is vegan junk food, just like their is animal product Junk food, but so what?

I vegan hamburger isn’t more dangerous than a meat one, if anything it’s healthier.

———-

The funny thing is the first thing people say about Veganism is “I like pizza and burger to much” so we say “you get get all hat stuff vegan” then they say “oh, that’s not healthy you must just be eating junk”, but they were the ones saying those are the foods they would miss.


----------



## aus_trader (20 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Becoming a vegan is probably the thing that I am most proud of, to me it out weighs all my other achievements including my military service and business achievements, because it’s something I feel is truly the best moral path, and is about helping others, but still requires you to go against the status quo with little or no support from most other people around you.



Bit hard to join this good path at the moment, as you mentioned there is very little support around you from family or friends. But I have decided to go on a minimalist adventure in terms of purchasing food/produce from now on and I believe my family will be supportive of this. We will be growing more of our own fruit and vegetables (already growing some) and I am thinking of having a small chook pen and a worm farm to really push the organic presence in my life.


----------



## aus_trader (20 April 2019)

Ann said:


> I am going to stay with my home cooked roast chicken, roast potato, baked pumpkin, cauliflower and green beans swathed in organic butter, followed by poached fresh pears and cream tonight.



Sounds scrumptious Ann !


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## Value Collector (21 April 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Bit hard to join this good path at the moment, as you mentioned there is very little support around you from family or friends. But I have decided to go on a minimalist adventure in terms of purchasing food/produce from now on and I believe my family will be supportive of this. We will be growing more of our own fruit and vegetables (already growing some) and I am thinking of having a small chook pen and a worm farm to really push the organic presence in my life.




As I said don’t hesitate to shoot me a PM if you want to talk about finding alternatives etc, also there are plenty of awesome face groups etc.

——-
The bad thing with home chook pens is you still end up having to buy female chooks to stock it, and they had brothers who ended up in the grinder.

To me it’s easier to just avoid eggs.

———

Whether it’s factory farm, organic, free range, corn fed etc etc they all generally come from the same hatcheries, and end up in the same slaughter houses.

Don’t let the catch words fool you, that’s just marketing.

Have some avocados on toast instead.


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## aus_trader (21 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> As I said don’t hesitate to shoot me a PM if you want to talk about finding alternatives etc, also there are plenty of awesome face groups etc.
> 
> ——-
> The bad thing with home chook pens is you still end up having to buy female chooks to stock it, and they had brothers who ended up in the grinder.
> ...



Love avocado on toast !

I know someone who has a nice chook pen that has only hens from what I remember, but still produces eggs (organically from feeding kitchen scraps and seeds). Have to find out a bit more about it...


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## Value Collector (21 April 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Love avocado on toast !
> 
> I know someone who has a nice chook pen that has only hens from what I remember, but still produces eggs (organically from feeding kitchen scraps and seeds). Have to find out a bit more about it...




So my first question would be “where did they get the hens?”

If they bought they from a produce store or some other commercial supplier of laying hens, then they most certainly came from a supplier that kills all the males.

My wife’s aunty keeps a load of hens, and she asked me whether I would eat some of her eggs because her hens are “happy”.

My answer was simply that if she had extra I would rather her fed them to some one who wasn’t vegan, so that they could offset eggs that person might buy any way, because I am happy with my avocados or hummus.

I also said that if she absolutely had eggs to waste, I would feed them to my dog to offset non vegan dog food she would other wise be eating, and that maybe if she is over producing she should buy less hens from the hatchery.

——-
Also removing eggs from the hens every day stimulates them to lay more, which puts more stress on their body.


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## So_Cynical (21 April 2019)

We owe so much to the humble chicken yet treat them so badly..


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## aus_trader (21 April 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> We owe so much to the humble chicken yet treat them so badly..



humble cow too: milk, cheese, butter, yogurt,  gelatin, leather (cow hide) and beef. Even whey protein used for bulking up the body builders !


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## So_Cynical (4 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> If you have a grill’d burger shop near you, go and try the “beyond simply grilled burger”.




I have lunch at a grill’d occasionally - so i have a choice now between a fake $10 gourmet burger or a $10 real meat gourmet burger, no choice really - im going for the real thing.


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## Ann (4 May 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> I have lunch at a grill’d occasionally - so i have a choice now between a fake $10 gourmet burger or a $10 real meat gourmet burger, no choice really - im going for the real thing.




...but nooooo! Think about the planet, you will be responsible for the planet burning to a crisp because all of those farting cows! However, if one slaughters the beast, he is unlikely to fart!
Ergo carnivores are saving the planet from farting cows!


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## Value Collector (4 May 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> I have lunch at a grill’d occasionally - so i have a choice now between a fake $10 gourmet burger or a $10 real meat gourmet burger, no choice really - im going for the real thing.




I go the other way eg. If it’s the same price, and same enjoyment for me, I take the option that doesn’t require an animal to enter a slaughterhouse.

I don’t see moving to plant based meats as trading down, I see it as trading up. To me it’s a superior product.

If you are accepting a minced animal patty for the same price of $10, you are accepting an inferior cheaper product.


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## Value Collector (4 May 2019)

Ann said:


> .However, if one slaughters the beast, he is unlikely to fart!
> Ergo carnivores are saving the planet from farting cows!




I understand your response is sarcastic, as you would realize that the warehouses full of unhappy animals turning truckloads of grain into methane wouldn’t exist in the first place unless people are paying to buy their dead bodies.

So you aren’t solving the problem by purchasing meat, you are helping fund it.


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## Value Collector (4 May 2019)

galumay said:


> I dont doubt there will be some initial growth in a new product like this, but how sustainable is that growth? Its just a type of pattie, the margins will get squeezed as there is no barrier to entry and the % of the population who are vegan/vegetarian is still tiny.
> 
> Regardless, once the hype is removed these businesses are just commodity food producers which has not historically been a particularly high margin sector nor has it generally had much enduring competitive advantage.
> 
> On the other hand one can look at the craziness of milk companies performance in the share market and I guess that suggests anything is possible!




It’s been growing for 9 years, so it’s far from a fad.

Also 93% of the people buying he burgers are not vegan, there is a growing base of people looking to reduce meat consumption that aren’t vegan or vegetarian.


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## galumay (4 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It’s been growing for 9 years, so it’s far from a fad.




That sort of indicates just how slow the growth has been!



Value Collector said:


> Also 93% of the people buying he burgers are not vegan, there is a growing base of people looking to reduce meat consumption that aren’t vegan or vegetarian.




That sounds awfully like a fad if true, and still leaves us with the reality that once you remove the fad & hype its just secondary food production, low margin, no enduring competitive advantage. 

I just cant see fake meat companies being wealth creators for investors in the medium to long term, that doesnt mean there wont be more fake meat sold to fast food chains and supermarkets. 

I get that you might like the product, and even hold some personal ethics that align with eating fake meat, or a personal dietary belief that less animal protein is more healthy, but as an investor none of that should inform your decision about the quality of an investment.

ps I just realised we are having this discussion in the Ingram's thread so we are about as far off topic as we could get, I see you have a thread started on the fake meat company so I will follow up any further discussion there.


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## Value Collector (5 May 2019)

galumay said:


> That sort of indicates just how slow the growth has been!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wouldn’t call growing sales from $0 to over $100 Million in 9 years slow growth.

Time will tell, but I think you have under estimated the growing trend towards alternatives.


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## aus_trader (5 May 2019)

Ann said:


> ...but nooooo! Think about the planet, you will be responsible for the planet burning to a crisp because all of those farting cows! However, if one slaughters the beast, he is unlikely to fart!
> Ergo carnivores are saving the planet from farting cows!




Expected this from So_Cynical perhaps but not you Ann, but cynically funny !
I guess if the animal is treated well in life and put to rest without torture it's all good. I'm thinking a way to put it down in a fraction of a second with a blade like laser beam (to be invented in the future). Even better if we could copy the green alien laser beam used by 'The Predator' (see movie with Arnie) which cauterises the wound as it cuts through flesh, so there is no blood spill.


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## Value Collector (5 May 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Expected this from So_Cynical perhaps but not you Ann, but cynically funny !
> I guess if the animal is treated well in life and put to rest without torture it's all good. I'm thinking a way to put it down in a fraction of a second with a blade like laser beam (to be invented in the future). Even better if we could copy the green alien laser beam used by 'The Predator' (see movie with Arnie) which cauterises the wound as it cuts through flesh, so there is no blood spill.




I am thinking that the better option is just to get the meat without the need for the animal in the first place, rather than thinking of ways to slaughter it.

Whether that be plant based meat alternatives, or simply growing the chicken breast without having to grow the whole living breathing animal.

————

In my mind, even if the slaughter was painless and the animal never knew it happened, it’s still wrong to do it when you don’t have to.

I mean If a serial killer was drugging his victims drinks, putting them to sleep before cutting their throats and eating their bodies, we would still think that was wrong.

When he stood up in court and defended his actions by saying “my victims had good lives up until I drugged them and cut their throats, they never felt anything”, we wouldn’t look at that as being honorable.

Nor would we say things like, it’s his personal choice what he eats at the end of the day.

Or, it’s your choice to avoid eating humans and I support your right to be a non human eater, but you really have to shut up and just let the cannibals eat human flesh if they want, it’s their choice.


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## aus_trader (5 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I am thinking that the better option is just to get the meat without the need for the animal in the first place, rather than thinking of ways to slaughter it.
> 
> Whether that be plant based meat alternatives, or simply growing the chicken breast without having to grow the whole living breathing animal.
> 
> ...



I was just thinking of a better/quicker way in the meantime since I can't see all the animal farming businesses going out of business anytime soon...


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## galumay (6 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I mean If a serial killer was drugging his victims drinks, putting them to sleep before cutting their throats and eating their bodies, we would still think that was wrong.




In the past some societies cannabilism was practised, it wasnt wrong in their culture.

In nearly all societies today eating animal meat is not even considered in the context of right or wrong, its just what omnivores like homo sapiens do. 

I think where the issue gets emotional is when people try to push their personal dietary choices onto others with some sort of imagined moral imperative. I dont care if you are a vegan, or a vegatarian, on a keto diet, gluten free, more power to you and your choices - but start trying to tell me what I can or cant eat, or that i am 'wrong' for choosing a particular dietary habit then you are going to get a very pointed "F*$% Off, and mind your own business."


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## Value Collector (6 May 2019)

galumay said:


> In the past some societies cannabilism was practised, it wasnt wrong in their culture.
> 
> In nearly all societies today eating animal meat is not even considered in the context of right or wrong, its just what omnivores like homo sapiens do.
> 
> I think where the issue gets emotional is when people try to push their personal dietary choices onto others with some sort of imagined moral imperative. I dont care if you are a vegan, or a vegatarian, on a keto diet, gluten free, more power to you and your choices - but start trying to tell me what I can or cant eat, or that i am 'wrong' for choosing a particular dietary habit then you are going to get a very pointed "F*$% Off, and mind your own business."




If they killed and ate some one against there will, that would be wrong regardless of the culture.

You are mistake what is lawful, with what is moral, they are to different things.

You are also mistaking what is a personal choice vs a moral choice.

Eg smoking is a personal choice, because the only person you harm is you, so it’s your choice, I don’t give a crap if people smoke.

However, if your habit is generating innocent victims, it no longer is a personal choice, it becomes a moral choice.

There is lots of legal ways to act immorally, this does not make it ok though.


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## galumay (6 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> If they killed and ate some one against there will, that would be wrong regardless of the culture.




No, its about context and perspective - it would be wrong by our standards/morals. It was morally fine, right, and legal in those cultures that practised it. 

I think you are mistakenly viewing morality as some sort of absolute.  

Generally the majority of a society has certain moral values that are widely and deeply shared - but morality is also dynamic in society, many practices that were considered immoral a generation or two ago are now accepted, hence there are always practices that are in a state of flux, where some people consider them moral, and others maintain them to be immoral. Morality also varies with things like religious belief, political beliefs and cultural background.

Your distinction between moral and personal choice doesnt really make sense to me either, our personal morality (belief in what is wrong or right), informs our personal choices. I think a moral choice is just a personal choice that aligns with your personal morality, not a different thing based on effect as you seem to imply.

ps I think its time to stop the philosophical discussion, we have dragged the thread even further off topic and ending up discussing cannabilism in a thread about a chook farming business has probably set some sort of undesirable record! So I shall sign off and let the chook farmers have their say.


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## Value Collector (7 May 2019)

galumay said:


> No, its about context and perspective - it would be wrong by our standards/morals. It was morally fine, right, and legal in those cultures that practised it.
> 
> I think you are mistakenly viewing morality as some sort of absolute.
> 
> ...




As I said something being moral is different to it being legal.

If you are innocent and don’t want to die, it is wrong for someone to kill you, regardless of their personal beliefs or the beliefs of their peers.

I do t believe in morality is subjective or absolute, but it is objective.


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## wayneL (8 May 2019)

If only we could convince all the other carnivorous animals to become vegan,  we could all live in peace...


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## aus_trader (8 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> If only we could convince all the other carnivorous animals to become vegan,  we could all live in peace...



Yeah, that'll stop one of the neighbouring cats  from eating the native birds and leaving a whole circle of shredded feathers in my garden every other week


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## noirua (26 April 2020)

#BREAKINGNEWS – HUGE NEWS! Today is #WorldDayForLaboratoryAnimals and Beagle Freedom Project is thrilled to announce that we have rescued 29 beagles used in animal testing in South Korea!




	

		
			
		

		
	
We are conducting this rescue in partnership with our friends at Beagle Rescue Network in South Korea. Beagle Freedom Project made a commitment to save them by sponsoring their rescue so that they could be released, otherwise the rescue could not have happened.


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