# How safe is your super?



## nioka (15 September 2012)

I don't visit ASF very often these days and one of the reasons is because I have lost faith in stocks as a sound and safe investment. Investing in stocks is no longer a case of putting some money into a company as part of financing a company that will use that money to the advantage of both the company and the shareholder while at the smae time providing the facility to withdraw that money at short notice should it be required. The company you invest in should use that money wisely and make reasonable endeavours to protect its value.

Instead we have a gambling casino where the odds are stacked against the small investor and the funds (including large super funds) are in the hands of these greedy operators that take enormous risk with that money. They compete with each other in a winner takes all manner, using high frequence trading methods that are not available to you and I. The profits they may make using your funds do not feed back to you as they are milked off in performance bonuses, management fees etc. 

You can't expect any help from the ASX as they are part of the scheme. Dare I call it a scam not a scheme ?. Nor can you expect help from ASIC as they are an impotent waste of tax payers money. ( I have made numerous complaints to ASIC about a public company that has 1900 shareholders and that company has not held an annual meeting or issued a financial statement for 4 years, without any action to correct this.)

In addition, as I have posted here in the past, the year I started work (1947) the government of the day started deducting a small percentage of everyones wage that was to go into a special fund that would give everyone an aged pension. A few years down the track another governmemt transferred those funds into the consolidated account and said that the pension would be paid out of that account. Further on another government introduced the means test that meant that those that had contributed the most probably recieved the least.

 Think about it. How safe IS your super.


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## waza1960 (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*

I got my super out early for these and other reasons....

 The elephant in the room could be the Industry Super funds (Controlled by the Unions) how secure are they
  Considering the corruption exposed in unions lately how much freedom  do they have to rort the system?
  Having Unions in control of Super Funds would be like having Michael Jackson in charge of a preschool IMO


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## tech/a (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*

I've always had one rule.

If you can't control it then dont invest in it.
So while it can be argued we cannot control how
Any investment performs my statement is related
To the actual physical control of your funds.
IE giving your super to a managed fund or financial planner or
Property developer---- heaven forbid.

SMSF and personal education particularly in risk/portfolio
And investment strategy diversification is the solution.

Put in the effort.

* TAKE CONTROL *


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## Julia (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



tech/a said:


> I've always had one rule.
> 
> If you can't control it then dont invest in it.
> So while it can be argued we cannot control how
> ...



Agree entirely.  However, there will always be some who are simply not capable of doing this and many more who are so apathetic that they don't even know how their Super is invested.
You can't save people from themselves.


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## Julia (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



nioka said:


> In addition, as I have posted here in the past, the year I started work (1947) the government of the day started deducting a small percentage of everyones wage that was to go into a special fund that would give everyone an aged pension. A few years down the track another governmemt transferred those funds into the consolidated account and said that the pension would be paid out of that account. Further on another government introduced the means test that meant that those that had contributed the most probably recieved the least.



The exact same thing happened in New Zealand in the 60's.

Nioka, as I recall many of your postings here some while ago, you seemed to be going for some very speculative companies.  Apologies if my memory is faulty but I thought you bought quite a lot of one/some of the Centro entities when it all fell over at the time of the GFC?  

Do you still hold LYC?

Perhaps your level of disappointment might have been less had you chosen e.g. the banks whose SPs are not far below what they were pre GFC and which have paid decent dividends and franking, + eg MND, CCV (no doubt others) which are quite well up on pre GFC prices.


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## tech/a (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



Julia said:


> Agree entirely.  However, there will always be some who are simply not capable of doing this and many more who are so apathetic that they don't even know how their Super is invested.
> You can't save people from themselves.




No you can't.
But if my posts helps stop one poor bugger 
From handing over life's savings to a scammer
Then I'm a happy guy.
Bank interest is better than being scammed.


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## ROE (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



nioka said:


> I don't visit ASF very often these days and one of the reasons is because I have lost faith in stocks as a sound and safe investment. Investing in stocks is no longer a case of putting some money into a company as part of financing a company that will use that money to the advantage of both the company and the shareholder while at the smae time providing the facility to withdraw that money at short notice should it be required. The company you invest in should use that money wisely and make reasonable endeavours to protect its value.
> 
> Instead we have a gambling casino where the odds are stacked against the small investor and the funds (including large super funds) are in the hands of these greedy operators that take enormous risk with that money. They compete with each other in a winner takes all manner, using high frequence trading methods that are not available to you and I. The profits they may make using your funds do not feed back to you as they are milked off in performance bonuses, management fees etc.
> 
> ...




I havent have any issues with the stuff you mentioned, sure a bad investment here and there due to bad management but that is part of acceptable risk.

over all my dividend and captial gain is far superior from any other form of asset.

You need to put time and effort in evaluate companies and its management..
there are heaps of good company that look after small shareholders very well...

flt arp dmp nvt cda

there are good and bad apples in all industries you need to sort them out, they are all have similar qualities and trademark..

the bad guys usually award themselves crazy option, leverage up for short term profit,spins, dont accept mistakes.
after a while you spot them just like you can tell the naughty kids in the class if you are their teachers


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## McLovin (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



ROE said:


> I havent have any issues with the stuff you mentioned, sure a bad investment here and there due to bad management but that is part of acceptable risk.
> 
> over all my dividend and captial gain is far superior from any other form of asset.
> 
> ...




+1

More often than not it's "investors" who are actually treating the market like a casino, looking for that next big thing or that speccy mining company that could be the next Atlas/FMG.


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## nioka (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



Julia said:


> .
> Nioka, as I recall many of your postings here some while ago, you seemed to be going for some very speculative companies.  Apologies if my memory is faulty but I thought you bought quite a lot of one/some of the Centro entities when it all fell over at the time of the GFC?
> 
> Do you still hold LYC?
> ...




I have no problem with MY investments generally. I will admit that I did well from Centro but do not hold now. With LYC I do still have a fair sized holding and that has been obtained by trading the "ups and downs". However LYC is an example of manipulation by shorters and many small investors have lost plenty through the manipulation that continually triggers a stop loss. I have an exit value and will sell when it reaches that point. Lyc will not reach the potential indicated by earlier fundamentals. Lynas is a good example of continual manipulation with its share price. I do hold over 200,000 LYC and they are all "freebies" from trading them over a three year period. Made possible because of the gross manipulation that has been obvious there. There must be losers for me to accumulate freebies and that is the point that I make.

My disappointment is not with my own investments but I see so many people my age that are doing it tough because they relied on managed funds to produce an acceptable income in their retirement. I still hold some speculative stocks however I have transferred a large portion of my capital into commercial real estate. I do have a considerable investment in a research and development unlisted public company but I am a director of that company so the situation there is different. I know where the buck stops in that case. (I also know where it goes.)

Good to see you are still a regular poster.


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## Julia (15 September 2012)

*Re: How safe is your super.*



nioka said:


> I have no problem with MY investments generally. I will admit that I did well from Centro but do not hold now. With LYC I do still have a fair sized holding and that has been obtained by trading the "ups and downs". However LYC is an example of manipulation by shorters and many small investors have lost plenty through the manipulation that continually triggers a stop loss. I have an exit value and will sell when it reaches that point. Lyc will not reach the potential indicated by earlier fundamentals. Lynas is a good example of continual manipulation with its share price. I do hold over 200,000 LYC and they are all "freebies" from trading them over a three year period. Made possible because of the gross manipulation that has been obvious there. There must be losers for me to accumulate freebies and that is the point that I make.



Thanks for the reply, Nioka.   You don't say how long you have held LYC.  I see from the chart that if you'd held from the beginning of the GFC until mid 2011 you'd have made a decent profit, well over $200K for your 200,000 shares.  So I'm a bit surprised to know that you're still holding as that $200K profit would pretty much now all have been given back.   I am, however, guessing on the timing.  Would be interested to know when you bought in.
Would you care to share what your 'exit value' is?



> My disappointment is not with my own investments but I see so many people my age that are doing it tough because they relied on managed funds to produce an acceptable income in their retirement.



Sure, and plenty of younger people who will now have to work a lot longer.
It just underscores what has been said above:  i.e. that people need to - wherever possible - educate themselves sufficiently to make appropriate choices about how their funds are invested.

I cannot believe the number of people I've spoken to since the GFC who, when I've asked how their Super is invested, have absolutely no idea.  They don't know whether it's all in equities, Australian or international, how much is in cash etc etc.  

I don't want to comment on your assertion that this is because of market manipulation.
I think a much greater factor is the apathy of individuals and their refusal to take responsibility for their own fortunes.


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## ROE (16 September 2012)

I have LYC as a specs, it's not investment grade and I have no issues with it what so ever.
specs stocks in my definition are business that are yet to generate +ve cash flow 

when I buy stocks I already factor in system risk (manipulation, bad management, shorter etc...)

Shorter and manipulator only last while a company is in a bad shape and face uncertainty.
Short term focus investors worry long term investor like me I have a different view...

I still hold LYC and I'm still down like 20% but I have a different view in 2-3 years from now..
Shorter can go crazy, manipulator can do what the hell they can I dont mind...

once its position improve and it shows the market the money stock price will reflect it...

Shorters are a type of investors that take opportunity and pick off company wrong footed move.
I have no issues with them, you just have to learn to live with them...they aren't going away
and they aren't stop shorting just because people bitching about it...

If you invest in specs stock you got to have a view that you can afford to 
lose the lot of it without even losing a night sleep.

Lot of people on hotcopper invest in LYC  are not investors they are like spoil kids gambling on the market 
if things dont go their way they scream manipulation, corruption and whatever they can conjure up at the time.
They demand management has to answer their annoying little questions etc....


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## gav (16 September 2012)

nioka said:


> In addition, as I have posted here in the past, the year I started work (1947) the government of the day started deducting a small percentage of everyones wage that was to go into a special fund that would give everyone an aged pension. A few years down the track another governmemt transferred those funds into the consolidated account and said that the pension would be paid out of that account. Further on another government introduced the means test that meant that those that had contributed the most probably recieved the least.




I'm only 29, but this is what concerns me most about Super. The rules change, from how much extra you are allowed contribute, to the way you can access it.  My Dad will be 55 next year and if he "retires", he can start drawing on it straight away (tax free).  However, my Mum will have to wait until she is 60 due to her date of birth.  

I do not trust the govt and expect them to keep shifting the goal posts and imposing more restrictions; especially on those who've set themselves up well enough that they could retire early.  For this reason, I do not contribute any more than the bare minimum to my super, despite the massive tax advantages it offers.  I get taxed a lot more on my trading profits than I would if I put it in super, but at least I know the money is mine and I can do what I want with it.


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## leyy (19 September 2012)

I have finally got my accountant to set up a corporate trustee for my SMSF and will be rolling all my funds and (familly's funds) into this super. Looking forward to taking direct control on my investments.

Who would you trust to manage your retirement funds? Who has your best interests? 

A fund manager who does not know you or  your financial circumstances or yourself?


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## Crows (19 September 2012)

I was putting an additional percentage of my pay into super a few years ago, but when I saw that the age you can access it was increased, that soon stopped! I'd rather put that money into companies I feel will do well and know that at the end of the day that money is mine to do with as I please. With the way life expectancy is going, I could see them pushing us out even further for when we can access super. Granted I'm no where near retirement (unless I win lotto! Woo, wishful thinking is here) so that's my view on what I think my future may hold.

Personally my plan is; save for retirement based on what I will have in the bank, not what my super could add. For me, super will be seen as an added bonus (assuming I live to the age where I can access it!). I don't intend on relying on super getting me to retirement, after all we could see the worst GFC in history hit when I go to retire, who knows. I don't know about anyone else, but that's my view on it at this point in time.


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