# Religion preying on our youth



## Sean K (6 October 2006)

Once again, the church (any church) is going about it's insidious business of trying to brainwash the youth of our society and poison their brains with the concepts of 'faith', heaven and hell, fire and brimstone, blah blah blah......

In the one corner we have every sub cult of the Christian faith starting a Non Government Organisation (read: Religious Cult) trying to display the virtues of their faith by sucking every last dollar they can get out of you so that 30% of it goes to the starving masses in Africa, (while the rest goes to 'administration’ – read ‘my comfy lifestyle’), only to provide a 'perfume smoke screen' designed to bamboozle your brain into thinking that their particular view of the world is righteous. 

While on the other hand, we have Religious Cults initiating ‘Youth Days’, to in reality, trap young impressionable children for a few hours and ply them with all manner of sensory illusions to convince them that if they submit to God, and follow His rules, and put 10% of your money in the coffers, they will go to heaven. 

Please children, see through the lies, and see the world for what it is. Don't waste your time on such follies. Invest in the market instead! 

(Note: I’m not holding) 


Pope visit to attract 600,000
Jill Rowbotham
Religious affairs writer 
October 06, 2006

SYDNEY'S Randwick Racecourse will be the setting for a papal mass expected to attract as many as 600,000 people marking the conclusion of the World Youth Day festival in July 2008.

Cardinal George Pell made the announcement today in the presence of papal representatives who have been in Sydney for a week inspecting facilities and discussing plans for the five-day event, which takes place every three years. 

According to organisers it will attract more than 100,000 overseas visitors, which exceeds the number who came for the Olympic Games, and inject $100 million into the NSW economy. 

"World Youth Day is a very significant human and religious occasion," Cardinal Pell said. "It is an explicitly Catholic celebration but it is something that will be offered to all young Australians who are interested."

Pope Benedict XVI will follow in the footsteps of his predecessors, John Paul II and Paul VI, who each conducted masses at the racecourse. 

The mass on Sunday 20th July 2008 will be preceded by an overnight vigil at the venue. Hundreds of thousands will make the "pilgrim's walk" there on the previous afternoon from various points across the city. 

Those who don't fit into the racecourse will spill across into Centennial Park. 

President of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, which oversees World Youth Day preparations, Archbishop Stanislaw Rylko said Sydney's advantages included its world class facilities and its warm and friendly people. 

"I hope that World Youth Day 2008 in Sydney will become an important milestone in the life of the church in Australia and in the life of the whole society in Australia," Archbishop Rylko said.


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## juddy (6 October 2006)

The Howard government has encouraged this with the spending of $22 billion dollars over 3 years on private schools, the majority of which teach some type of religious doctrine. It's not only cults, this is where it really starts.


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## barney (6 October 2006)

HI Kennas and Juddy, I see and respect where you guys are coming from, and actually agree with lots of your sentiment..........but...........I think we should give young people credit for not being so gullible as to "be brainwashed" by what the "church" tells them........IMO most of the brainwashing is instigated by "misinformed" parents (who often think they are doing the right thing.....cause they were/have been brainwashed as well.....its an ongoing cycle)..........

I personally dont have a problem with the philosophies of the christian/or any  faith....it's the way that humans taint/misinterpret them that causes most of the problems...........I actually have a great relationship with God (whoever or whatever he or she may be) cause my view is to be totally open minded..........

I actually think that there is a family of Gods!!!! (Don't laugh!)  (Gods are simply a higher life form than humans IMO, and PS....Don't tell me "gods/ higher life forms" can't exist..........because MAN is an example that "higher" life forms DO exist........We are here....(or are we??)  

Humans who think that they are top of the life chain are IMO no different to religious leaders who tell you that "their" way to salvation is the "only" way..........  (deluded)  ...........we are just a small speck in the overall working of the Universe.....our importance is only in our OWN minds............my view is ...........be humble to how life exists/started, and how it was "created/evolved or whatever" (cause its Bl**dy COMPLEX) ..........

There is far too much we don't know/understand about "life" to try and "impart" our own limited opinions/knowledge on others, so I say sit back....watch...listen....think.....and learn....(and then accept you know very little!!  

PS...My opinions are in no way meant to be judgemental on others opinions, simply my own observations,     Cheers, Barney.


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## x2rider (6 October 2006)

Hi Kennas 

 I don't think it is that it is just the young people that seem to be be getting trageted , It is also the vulnerable that are almost more at risk 
 This is seen through the springing up of "christian " groups who offer hope to people , provided you are willing to part with a reasonable portion of your income . This can be seen in some groups by the fact of the poeple feeling pressured into donating money in the guise that they will not ony attain gods grace but also acceptance from fellow parishoners . 
 I think that as times become tougher and things get harder people look for something to believe in . 

 I had a catholic Boys school education and it pretty much turned me off any sort of religion .  What is worse . People that go to chruch because they have to or to be seen , or people that don't go to church , but behave themselves in the world and are nice people .
 Gee  I think I just went off on a tangent there  
 Cheers Folks 
 Martin


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## barney (6 October 2006)

x2rider said:
			
		

> Hi Kennas
> 
> I don't think it is that it is just the young people that seem to be be getting trageted , It is also the vulnerable that are almost more at risk
> This is seen through the springing up of "christian " groups who offer hope to people , provided you are willing to part with a reasonable portion of your income . This can be seen in some groups by the fact of the poeple feeling pressured into donating money in the guise that they will not ony attain gods grace but also acceptance from fellow parishoners .
> ...





Hi X Rider.............Just my observation, but "religion" is MAN made.........and therein lies the problem..............Man assumes "he" knows all, when in fact we know "bugger all"!!...............Religion is just a word...........but to know "God" we need to be Humble and Receptive to the"meaning of life" (not the Monty Python version!!   .......As I said above, I believe I have a concept of "God", and I believe he/she has "kept an eye" on me in my life..............I swear at "God" all the time (no I'm not crazy),........Realistically,.........Humans are a complex life form........If there  is a God/s, then it stands to reason that he/she/whatever form, is a higher more complex lifeform..............and you know what else ...............Our "God/s probably have their own "God/s" who "look after" them............Humans limit themselves far too much through ego to accept that they are actually  fairly insignificant in the overall scheme of things.............Not trying to be smart here........I'm serious about this stuff.............I am an empty vessel...........my importance is only significant to those that see it as significant.................Most will be bored with this "crap" I speak, but some  might see some "truth" in it......... All the best, Barney.


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## watsonc (6 October 2006)

The religious will never be able to prove the existence of their god/s. Remember: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence."

I could say that I worship a green dragon flying around in outer-space that has magical powers! I cannot prove its existence, nor can anyone prove it does not exist. Until I prove it exists, I'm a lunatic basically! The burden of proof rest on the person/s making the claim. Until the religious actually prove something, it is simply wishful thinking.

I don't understand why today, with all our scientific advancement, education and technology, why people believe in ancient stuff written by Bronze Age Goat Herders, who were trying to explain their world without science in a primative age.


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## Smurf1976 (6 October 2006)

Oh yes, let's donate some $ to help the starving millions in Africa.

Meanwhile, the church sits atop an outright fortune and encourages _more_ children being born thus making the problems in poor countries where people are starving worse. Outright hipocrisy that fails even the most basic test of logical thinking - unless the real objective is something other than putting an end to people starving.

That said, the money doesn't seem to be finding it's way to Hobart - the chruch seems to be leaving the strip club alone now. No doubt they've remembered the reason the main cathedral in Hobart ended up with an entertainment venue out the back in the first place - they're in financial trouble and under administration. First it was a gay nightclub without problems, then that became a mainstream club as the demise of the largest competitor loomed. Then the church found a problem with that (music too loud, funny that a nightclub would have loud music...) and now it's back open as a strip club. Huge fuss at first but it all went quiet incredibly quickly when the church got caught stealing the strip club's property. I seem to recall that the Bible finds stealing to be a bit of a problem... High principles disappear rather quickly when the church needs some $ it would seem.


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## barney (6 October 2006)

watsonc said:
			
		

> The religious will never be able to prove the existence of their god/s. Remember: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence."
> 
> I could say that I worship a green dragon flying around in outer-space that has magical powers! I cannot prove its existence, nor can anyone prove it does not exist. Until I prove it exists, I'm a lunatic basically! The burden of proof rest on the person/s making the claim. Until the religious actually prove something, it is simply wishful thinking.
> 
> I don't understand why today, with all our scientific advancement, education and technology, why people believe in ancient stuff written by Bronze Age Goat Herders, who were trying to explain their world without science in a primative age.




Hi there Watsonc,  With all due respect (and I do respect yours, and any one elses opinion)................"scientific advancement" is just another word (well two words   ) for "ACCEPTING" what the "scientists" tell you!!..............You are believing what "MAN" tells you about how "MAN" evolved/ etc...........(remember the world was once FLAT!! and if you believed otherwise you would have been called an  absolute "LUNATIC").............   Man knows "Nothing"..................for example........Did you know that in every living cell in the human body, there are more "Moving Parts" than in any "man made " machine ever designed  (and we once believed that the human cell was made up of not much more than an atom of  electrons and neutrons etc.)............and that is a fact "accepted" by "MAN".................I'm not trying to be smart or condecending........I just think that the sooner we (humans) wake up to the fact that we know "very little".....the more we will learn.......................PS Anyone looked at "String Theory".......interesting stuff!!..........God (whatever perspective you take of God) is real..........from the point of view that Humans are NOT the "top of the chain"..............and if we are the "top" of the chain.........then the chain is very weak!!.......Cheers, Barney.


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## watsonc (6 October 2006)

Not sure what your point is Barney

Science is a self correcting process. It was science that proved that there was more than we believed to be in a human cell.  I don't really know why you mentioned the theory of evolution. Scientists have been trying to seize the crown of Charles Darwin since his first book 'Origin of Species' was written in 1859. To this day his general theory remains intact. If evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, I would accept it. I would not continue on and have blind faith that the theory of evolution was still correct.



> Did you know that in every living cell in the human body, there are more "Moving Parts" than in any "man made " machine ever designed




Yes nature is very complex, more complex than anything man has designed. So What.

I never said humans were at the top of the food chain, and because we are not at the top of the food chain does not imply that a god/s are real.
You mentioned that humans apparently know 'nothing', the argument from incredulity creates a god of the gaps. Gods were responsible for lightning until we determined natural causes for lightning, for infectious diseases until we found bacteria and viruses, for mental illness until we found biochemical causes for them. God is confined only to those parts of the universe we do not know about, and that keeps shrinking. 

Cheers


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## wayneL (6 October 2006)

[mod hat on]I just want to step in here quickly before this progresses too far. By all means have a robust discussion, but please respect the beliefs of others. Argue with logic, science, common sense, whatever, but do not use the tactic of mock and ridicule[/mod hat off]

Thanks


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## barney (6 October 2006)

watsonc said:
			
		

> Not sure what your point is Barney
> 
> Science is a self correcting process. It was science that proved that there was more than we believed to be in a human cell.  I don't really know why you mentioned the theory of evolution. Scientists have been trying to seize the crown of Charles Darwin since his first book 'Origin of Species' was written in 1859. To this day his general theory remains intact. If evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, I would accept it. I would not continue on and have blind faith that the theory of evolution was still correct.
> 
> ...





Hi again Wat,  Its difficult when we (I) write stuff down to get the right "vibe" to it......I was in no way attacking your views etc.......... I have the utmost respect for everyones views etc. ..........I kinda like to think outside the "box" a bit thats all.............I was bought up in a "christian" household, but would be "thrown out" of a christian church if I put my "opinions" across, nowdays.............Basically I like to think that "life" is far too complex for us as humans to "think" that we understand/know what is really going on....thats really all I am saying...............we need to be "open" to "new discoveries".......and I agree; Science gives us that, but in saying that science is only "human discovery", and it is more often than not, either proven false, or "improved" upon with time..............I appreciate your comments.......I am simply trying to get others interested in "freeing up" any "dogmatic" views they may have, cause I've found since I've done this, things tend to "make more sense".....if that makes any sense   ...............PS I'm not normally this serious, but I like discussion on "higher planes" of life so to speak.........after all.........we should all question where we came from etc. otherwise we can tend to become "self centered".....and this is counter productive imo,         All the best, Barney.  PPS This is my "normal" state of mind when not serious!!..... :taz:


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## weird (6 October 2006)

> Please children, see through the lies, and see the world for what it is.




Kennas, please tell us what the world really is then ? Perhaps we are all just your dream and none of this is real


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## Julia (6 October 2006)

Interesting discussion.  Wayne (as moderator):  as I read through the thread I was actually thinking that people were being pretty good about debating the topic and not the person.

I'm completely opposed to religion in the sense of doctrine-based groups, whether it be Christian, Muslim or anything else.  I'm not sure what attracts people to religion other than the inherent human need to "belong".   Doing some work with people on the edges of our society allows me to see how the churches suck them in, simply because they are desperately lonely.
And to this end, I guess I'd have to say the churches are actually doing something useful.  If the quid pro quo for friendship a lonely person has to offer the church is simply his/her presence at some fellowship group, then I don't mind listening to that person telling me that they have "found Jesus".
If their life is less miserable as a result, then it's surely not up to me or anyone else to impose my views to the contrary.

And while I'm trying to be even handed here, a thousand bouquets to the Salvos who are always down there with anyone in the gutter or wherever they are needed.  They are the only group as far as I know who don't ask for allegiance to their God as a condition for offering their help when it is needed.

Julia


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## billhill (6 October 2006)

Religion is simply a tool of humans. Most people do not realise that many hardcore religious believers actually have genes that predispose them to believing in a higher power. Possible reasons for this are that faith helps to keep people alive in the worst of situations which in Darwins theory is competitive advantage. Religion seems to be a product of evolution and though i think it has become incredibly corrupted it has its good points. 

I think most people would agree that the ten commandments even today make perfect sense for a peaceful and harmonious society. Religion can teach people good values. Bad people take religion and shape it to fit their motives. This is what has occured to most religions and hence they have a bad rap. As long as a religion does not negatively affect people who are not members i have no problem with people believing what they want. But as soon as these people force their beliefs on others that is a BIG no no. It doesn't matter whether your hindu, Christian, Muslim or athiest as long as you beleive in being a good person it shouldn't matter.

Billhill


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## wayneL (6 October 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion.  Wayne (as moderator):  as I read through the thread I was actually thinking that people were being pretty good about debating the topic and not the person.




Julia,

Just trying set the right tone. This can be a contentious issue and wanted to remind folks before anyone gets carried away.

Cheers


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## weird (6 October 2006)

Well I have not really seen a debate, just a whole lot of negative comments directed towards those who believe in a major religion, by those who don't.

Now telemarketers on the other hand ! Let's get 'em !


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## Sean K (6 October 2006)

ooooh, I have so much to add right now but the shiraz won't let me. Everything is blurry.....

I knew when I started this that it would require moderation, so well done, but at the same time, many people jump on these forums for this reason - to have the opportunity to discuss their beliefs in the world, and why they are here.  

So, sorry I can't add too it right this second....Must drink water with some berocco.....talk later....


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## 2020hindsight (6 October 2006)

Albert Einstein ...."What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altogether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life. "

What an idiot that Einstein was !!!
(Sorry Ive been surfing those quotes of WayneL's again )http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_religion.html

Another by AE :- "Scientists were rated as great heretics by the church, but they were truly religious men because of their faith in the orderliness of the universe."

So... until we define the term "religion" , Plato my friend, I refuse to argue. 

"Im of a Grecian extraction - owed more than this Grecian earns,
Plato my forebear refused to make argument till one defined all one's terms,
Funny how fashions have shifted , sometime it even unlearns, 
my wife can argue on nothing till morning 
to hell with Platonic concerns " .....

I'm of Italian extraction, Opera brings me to tears, 
Julius Caesar was one of my Grandaddy's Uncle's etcetera's peers; 
Funny how fashions have shifted, Passions have changed through the years, 
I like the opera, he liked the roaring of Gladiatorial cheers. 

I'm of Egyptian extraction, Trinket sales on Golden Mile, 
Ramses the third was my distant Great-greatuncle, (There was a ruler with style!); 
Funny how fashions have shifted, Sphinx watching on all the while - 
I like to punt on a gullible tourist trade, He the Royal Punt on the Nile. 

I'm of a Kenyan extraction, Homo and Rectus were ‘rels’, 
I like to scout o'er the great broad savannah while Staying at five star motels; 
Funny how fashions have shifted, New-fangled whistles and bells, 
I use a camera to search out wild animals, They used a rock axe and yells.

I'm from Neanderthal's hometown, We both like party and rave, 
I like my beard trimmed a neat Van-Gogh goatie, He didn't like much to shave; 
Funny how fashions have shifted, Subtle things how we behave, 
I met my wife in a nightclub in Dusseldorf, He clubbed his wife in some cave. 

Of all my distant relations, First was the miracle son,
I get to exercise 10 zillion body cells, Proto the Zoan had one; 
Funny how fashions have shifted, Proto you son of a gun, 
He didn’t get to have one raw emotion, I write strange ditties for fun.
ahh hek - guess you had to be there


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## Sean K (6 October 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> HI Kennas and Juddy, I see and respect where you guys are coming from, and actually agree with lots of your sentiment..........but...........I think we should give young people credit for not being so gullible as to "be brainwashed" by what the "church" tells them........IMO most of the brainwashing is instigated by "misinformed" parents (who often think they are doing the right thing.....cause they were/have been brainwashed as well.....its an ongoing cycle)..........
> 
> I personally dont have a problem with the philosophies of the christian/or any  faith....it's the way that humans taint/misinterpret them that causes most of the problems...........I actually have a great relationship with God (whoever or whatever he or she may be) cause my view is to be totally open minded..........
> 
> ...




Barney, really want to catch up on this tomorrow, when the brain is connected with the fingers....


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## weird (6 October 2006)

Kennas, after you sleep it off, I'm still curious why Christianity is bugging you so much to make this original post. Are you starting out on your trip on the Road to Damascus ?


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## barney (6 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Barney, really want to catch up on this tomorrow, when the brain is connected with the fingers....




You may have started a monster here Kennas...................PS As the (drunk) comedian on the Footy show said..........I've had a couple of beers.........well a few..............................................A LOT............. ..........Had a couple myself tonight (not working...again!) so we might have been a good match!   Its interesting to read everyones slant on "religion" etc................I reckon most people don't give it much (in depth) thought...............we all get wrapped up in our day to day lives and can become very selfish (not on purpose), but when it all boils down to it, everyone should have a concept of where they came from/meaning of life etc (and you don't have to be "churchy" to do that) A devout atheist has probably contemplated his existence more than most, because he has come to the conclusion that he is just that..........One of my best friends is an atheist, and I would trust my life with him more than almost anyone.............My wife has never been a "church goer", yet has "christian" values that put most "christians" to shame............As Bullhill said earlier....as long as you are a good person....which I agree with, but then you could ask....who determines what a "good" person is..............If there is no God for eg.  what is wrong with being a totally selfish uncaring whatever..............Some would say.that is anti-social....but why do people have to be "sociable".....To fit in??!  To be accepted...to Belong etc..........Is this "normal" or abnormal?   Who really knows.................In the end it is up to the individual to work out their own philosophies on life.............so in my opinion the only disservice people can do to themselves is to NOT contemplate their origin and where they may be on their exit!  ...............bit like Technical Analysis       ............ .....Enough rambling (think I've sobered up     Cheers to all..........Sorry if I bored you.

Hey 20/20, Did you write that "piece?"   Well done if you did...... I liked the bit about "clubbing" the wife in the cave.........funny............


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> 20/20, Did you write that "piece?".....



Puts a new slant on "night clubbing" with the missus yes? lol.
Mate here's one slightly more serious ... 

IF I WERE GOD 
If I were the God of Light ..in the Christian twist of the word,
And some Bishops pretended I’d said that a gay man's excluded, or “Heaven’s deferred”,
I’d probably question their motives..and tell them their vision was blurred, 
Or lacking in empathy, praps homophobic, and certainly downright absurd.
We’re no two the same .. so let’s tone down the blame..
(And judging ..and sledging ..and pastlife redredging)
And the heat and the hate incurred.

If I were the God of Love..as the Islamic followers say,
And men draped in BLACK! said that wives should be stoned, if suspected of going astray,
And just on the word of some madman..and quoting My name all the way,
To kill her by pellets from rampaging zealots, - I’d probably lean towards “nay”.
- You’ll guess how I dress, from my rainbow caress 
of my wife-world, my life-world, my not-without-strife world,
So lovingly sculptured  from clay.

If I were the God of the Righteous, and I mean in the global sense
And somebody said that the answer was “might”, and that killing was not an offence,
Or a volunteer bomber could somehow find “Bliss”, from the moment of impact and hence-
I’d prob’ly say “Son, just give-it-a-miss, ..and don’t be so God-damned dense!.”
Salvation my boy is a well informed joy, 
(Enlightened, less frightened, and ranting-much-quietened,)
where you argue – like gents - at the fence.

If I were the God of the Living, ..and somebody came up and said
That some quote from some Biblical text or Koran..predicted some horrible dread,
Abandoned by Keeper, some monster Grim Reaper who mega-throws worlds on their head ! - 
I’m here, just ignore it (cos I never saw it), and don’t be so easily lead.
Predictions like that .. when the world was flat.. 
(Begotten, forgotten, from-some-old-dude’s-jottin’)
are inept (you can take it as read).

But…But…But (sigh)
But If I were the Mother of Nature, ..and my world was a breaking shell,
And someone was pouring black oil on my birds…and poisoning, slowly, the well,
And deserts were growing like wildfire.. and wildfires were burning like Hell, 
I’d be just a tiddy- wee-bit concerned, …And I’d probably opt to sell !! 
Or make a new pact to clean up my act, 
(this dome, my home, where I love to roam)
and try to make patient well;
And stare down their eyes when they rabidly foam, 
while ringing some Heavenly bell.

needless to say I wish we'd spend more time arguing about what we are going to leave behind (this planet) than about whether we are gonna go to Heaven or not


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## barney (7 October 2006)

> needless to say I wish we'd spend more time arguing about what we are going to leave behind (this planet) than about whether we are gonna go to Heaven or not




Point well made and well taken 20X2 (Notice I put it in green in respect for the earth!!) 
You could perhaps start a poets thread!!

Heaven is a concept I know nothing about other than what we were "taught" (or should I say brainwashed  growing up in sunday school. ................ Not sure I'd want to live forever.......having enough trouble getting to 50   Might have something to do with the rediculously late hours I stay up till


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

> Not sure I'd want to live forever.......having enough trouble getting to 50.  Might have something to do with the ridiculously late hours I stay up till



Lol - like the dyslexic agnostic insomniac my friend - stayed awake ... YEAH YEAH WE KNOW!! lol
(personally I have no doubt at all that theres a dog) 
BTW, you know what DNA stands for i assume -     National Dyslexic Assocn. 
-  Leave you and the late shift to sort out all these problems mate - to the tune of that gently weeping guitar of yours  Me - I've decided that these problems are probably still gonna be around tomorrow lol. adios amigo - maniana


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## 2020hindsight (7 October 2006)

Barney - found a couple of quotes - that could have been written specifically for part-time working musos:- http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_religion.html or was it cat_ ethics I forget.
Barbara Ehrenreich: Personally, I have nothing against work, particularly when performed, quietly and unobtrusively, by someone else. I just don't happen to think it's an appropriate subject for an "ethic."

Barbara Ehrenreich: I was raised the old-fashioned way, with a stern set of moral principles: Never lie, cheat, steal or knowingly spread a venereal disease. Never speed up to hit a pedestrian or, or course, stop to kick a pedestrian who has already been hit. From which it followed, of course, that one would never ever -- on pain of deletion from dozens of Christmas card lists across the country -- vote Republican.


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## barney (7 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Barney - found a couple of quotes - that could have been written specifically for part-time working musos:- http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_religion.html
> 
> Barbara Ehrenreich: Personally, I have nothing against work, particularly when performed, quietly and unobtrusively, by someone else. I just don't happen to think it's an appropriate subject for an "ethic."
> 
> Barbara Ehrenreich: I was raised the old-fashioned way, with a stern set of moral principles: Never lie, cheat, steal or knowingly spread a venereal disease. Never speed up to hit a pedestrian or, or course, stop to kick a pedestrian who has already been hit. From which it followed, of course, that one would never ever -- on pain of deletion from dozens of Christmas card lists across the country -- vote Republican.




Very funny 40 (Do you like the way I've abbreviated your name??)

Some great quotes on that link.............here's one I liked ..........

Mark TWAIN

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.


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## Sean K (7 October 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Kennas, after you sleep it off, I'm still curious why Christianity is bugging you so much to make this original post. Are you starting out on your trip on the Road to Damascus ?




Hi Weird, It's not just Christianity, but all religion that, well, doesn't completely bug me, but amaze me. There are many good values taught through religion, but they need not be based on religion. Most of the 'good' things about religious teachings are pretty well common sence. Do not kill, steal, yada yada. I mean really, we don't need an entire institution to tell us these common sence things. 

All religion fascinates me and the study of why we have invented it. As one poster said, it's a product of the human species, a result of our culture. God did not make us, we made God. In our image no less. 

(Must say, all of this is obviously just IMHO, of course)

While religion has done some good things around the world, (and some despicable) the time for religion is coming to an end. We understand how the world works in the most part now. We have secular governments and legal systems that control society. (Religion through history was also a mechanism of control). We do not need the 'Gods' to support us in too many ways now because we understand what the sun is, where rain comes from, and why crops fail. The last thing remaining unanswered really is the origin of the Universe and what was before....But is religion answering that for us? No, it does not. Find an answer to that in any of the good books. The answer from religion is simply that God was there and made all this up for us out of cosmic dust, which came from where......??

Anyway, my original point for this post was that religion tries to trap young people and influence them in believing the churches views and indoctinate them while they are vulnerable. That's why the majority of Primary schools around the world are actually run by churches. It's why parents also unwittingly are encouraged to ensure their children go to church early in life before they can think for themselves. Children should be taught to think first and then decide if religion is what they want. And NGOs should not be allowed to preach AT ALL when they are providing 'humanitarian' support, with money granted by the Government. (World Vision is the main culpret here)

Let's create a secular world where all laws and ethics are based on logic and common sence, that are based on what's best for the greater number in our culture right now, and not on some extraterrestrial's ramblings to some old schizophrenic dudes in the desert thousands of years ago.


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## barney (7 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Hi Weird, It's not just Christianity, but all religion that, well, doesn't completely bug me, but amaze me. There are many good values taught through religion, but they need not be based on religion. Most of the 'good' things about religious teachings are pretty well common sence. Do not kill, steal, yada yada. I mean really, we don't need an entire institution to tell us these common sence things.
> 
> All religion fascinates me and the study of why we have invented it. As one poster said, it's a product of the human species, a result of our culture. God did not make us, we made God. In our image no less.
> 
> ...




Hi there Kennas, Hope the wines worn off   Nearly lunchtime..........might be time for a midday chaser   (I meant coffee!)

I agree to much of your sentiment, even if I differ on the God bit (Actually the bit about the schizophrenic dudes in the desert made me chuckle....very funny   ...............The way I look at it, no amount of anyone "preaching" here is gona change yours or my mind re what we believe/think.........but I still think it is good to keep an open mind re "God/creation/evolution of life etc" For my part I have felt a "presence" looking after me" most of my life, and I dont mean that in a wimpy way.........I've had a lot of crap dealt up to me over the years, as we all no doubt have............I don't "use" God as a crutch for my woes.......I'm actually more inclined to have a joke with "him/her/whatever" and often "give him a serve" about stuff.............Lets face it, IF God is real (I believe God"s" not just one, cause life is about families....male and female...its the basic concept behind everything...why would God be any different?)   Anyway if he is our overeseer, (and thats my concept of "my" God ) then he has to be able to take a joke, and criticism...and he does IMO.............Anyway maybe I'm a bit weird (but I'm not schitzo.....I promise   

PS Re the kidz in school..Its a difficult problem...........perhaps we should simply concentrate on teaching them good values and leave the "religious stuff" out of it..........dont really know....I guess I'd much prefer my children to be taught christian values than atheism for example......Cheers Barney


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## Sean K (7 October 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> Hi there Kennas, Hope the wines worn off   Nearly lunchtime..........might be time for a midday chaser   (I meant coffee!)
> 
> I agree to much of your sentiment, even if I differ on the God bit (Actually the bit about the schizophrenic dudes in the desert made me chuckle....very funny   ...............The way I look at it, no amount of anyone "preaching" here is gona change yours or my mind re what we believe/think.........but I still think it is good to keep an open mind re "God/creation/evolution of life etc" For my part I have felt a "presence" looking after me" most of my life, and I dont mean that in a wimpy way.........I've had a lot of crap dealt up to me over the years, as we all no doubt have............I don't "use" God as a crutch for my woes.......I'm actually more inclined to have a joke with "him/her/whatever" and often "give him a serve" about stuff.............Lets face it, IF God is real (I believe God"s" not just one, cause life is about families....male and female...its the basic concept behind everything...why would God be any different?)   Anyway if he is our overeseer, (and thats my concept of "my" God ) then he has to be able to take a joke, and criticism...and he does IMO.............Anyway maybe I'm a bit weird (but I'm not schitzo.....I promise
> 
> PS Re the kidz in school..Its a difficult problem...........perhaps we should simply concentrate on teaching them good values and leave the "religious stuff" out of it..........dont really know....I guess I'd much prefer my children to be taught christian values than atheism for example......Cheers Barney




My concept of my personal 'God' is my karmic force which is shaped by me and the environment I am in. Kaos has it's role in all life, but we can shape our life by our decisions and the 'force' that is overseeing me is simply all the factors of life drawn together at each moment; controlling, influencing, directing, and protecting me. Perhaps the same as your 'God'. Nothing special, or cosmic, about mine though. It's just the sum of me and my environment. Maybe a bit prosaic and boring, but it's more real to me than the spirit world which seems to be out of my control.


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## hector (7 October 2006)

kennas,

Found this link while hunting for ute accessories that might interest you regarding church influence over its members

http://www.blueys.com.au/meaningoflife.htm 

"CHURCH BURNOUT SYNDROME

Church Burnout Syndrome (CBS) is a disease that I believe afflicts many Christians. I am an expert on the subject - I suffered from it for over 20 years. Thank God I now know the cure, and already above I have shared that cure with you above.

What are the root causes of CBS ?

Our "Christian tradition" hands it to us on a plate - we swallow it without question. From Day One in Sunday School, we are taught the Ten Commandments as the standard of personal performance in the Christian life.
As we reach puberty we are further depressed by the teachings of Matthew, which church leaders use to show us its not just physical performance that is required of us, but mind/heart self-control as well. (While Jesus was teaching the Pharisees the true meaning of the Law, they interpret these teachings as the model for New Testament behavior.) We're branded as rebellious when we fail to make the grade. We also see the hypocrisy of our teachers, which fuels our rebelliousness
If we do question what we are taught, we are branded "disruptive" or worse still we have a "poor spirit" and are encouraged to "worship with another congregation more in tune with your own ways".
Some church leaders preach faith, but then fail to trust God to speak into the hearts of His people as He has promised He will do. Lacking trust in God to lead His people individually, many (most ?) leaders take over in ways that are the exact opposite of Biblical teaching. They ignore 1 Peter 5 - they become "masters" over us (for our own good of course, because we are spiritually immature.)
Most churches are into "behaviour modification" rather than "spiritual revelation". They fail to realise, in spite of the weight of human history, that the only permanent changes that take place in the human heart and mind are changes that require zero personal effort.
Most churches appear to interpret Scripture from the perspective of "the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". They are predominantly "sin conscious" rather than "God conscious".
They need our money to promulgate "the system", so they twist and manipulate Scripture to gain the necessary control. Just as sewers breed rats, so the manipulation of Scripture breeds CBS."

Cheers


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## kerosam (7 October 2006)

i wonder if the general public or media distinguishes the difference between 'catholics' & 'evangelicals' when the word 'christian' pops up?   

regarding, science in christianity, has anyone has read books or articles from "Answers in Genesis" (www.answersingenesis.org)? it can be a good place to start about creation. Personally, if i want to know about a particular subject, I prefer to 'do my own research' then rely on what the media says.   

my 2 cts.


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## nelly (8 October 2006)

I kinda liked this...

If they know of him at all, many folks think Ben Stein is just a quirky actor/comedian who talks in a monotone. He's also a very intelligent attorney who knows how to put ideas and words together in such a way as to sway juries and make people think clearly. The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary, Sunday, 12/18/05. Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife. Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. If this is what it means to be no longer young , I t's not so bad. Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to. In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.​Of course I don't mean this to cast dispertion on anyone...I just thought it was well....... u decide what u think of it.


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## juddy (8 October 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> I I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.




The world has always been "going to hell", and religion has never been able to prevent it. In fact, historically, it has been the cause of much of the problems. And once again the major current crisis affecting the world have been caused by it. 

Time to try a world without it.


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## kerosam (8 October 2006)

i guess if anyone is against any religion, he/she can surely find flaws in them e.g. the crusades and inquistion... but let's not forget that non-religious figures like Pol Pot, Stalin and Idi Amin did their fair share of destroying millions of people.


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## weird (8 October 2006)

Heres one which will put me with the looney fringe.

If one has seen miracles then this would certainly reinforce ones belief. Lets say the miracle was healing. 

There is often no scientific explanation why someone with a terminal disease can suddenly be healed after a religious experience. And sceptics often attribute it to the mysterious power of the human mind.

But what if an animal was healed, and not a person ? What do we attribute that to.

For some people religion is not merely a belief but something very real and living.


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> . And sceptics often attribute it to the mysterious power of the human mind....But what if an animal was healed, and not a person ? What do we attribute that to.



Wierd I for one would love to know more details here.  You have opened up a truly original theory which has never seen the light of day in my experience or in my mental wanders through this topic.  

I'm one of the sceptice you mention - although I would say that the evidence is overwhelming that positive attitude can achieve wonders, whether or not gods help is involved.  (hek - the depression thread has alluded to self help many times - and what's that if not positive thinking).  The old quote "we can do whatever we believe we can do - with God's help" - should in my opinion be shortened by 3 words.

But an animal ? - yep I concede - that would be interesting   I'll probably still remain sceptical ( to be honest).  I mean there is such a thing as statistical scatter.  

PS was it a chimpanzee, maybe  lol   By the way - a REAL sceptic would say you must have taught it to put its hands together so...   But I wouldn't say that .
PPS as I mentioned in another thread... Do religious people gain strength from religion? Sure they do. It was proven by the Koreans in the 50's that the most religious were the hardest to brainwash - and by the way these were Muslims.
PPS a corny poem to finish with :-
since long ago all lions know, religion's heaven sent
religions prey upon our youth - but there's a catch for Lent
....
they put religion in their dens - while praying to St Michael
and so the lions preyed with them - and so completes the cycle.


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## happytrader (8 October 2006)

Distraction is a powerful tool.

While its easy to be distracted by the idea of religions being the bad guys, the reality is there are actually plenty of families out there preying on their own offspring. Breeding their own little cults.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## nelly (8 October 2006)

I for one being christian found this disturbing....very disturbing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM&eurl=

check it out....
The 'spin' man puts on everything......


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## nelly (8 October 2006)

juddy said:
			
		

> The world has always been "going to hell", and religion has never been able to prevent it. In fact, historically, it has been the cause of much of the problems. And once again the major current crisis affecting the world have been caused by it.
> 
> Time to try a world without it.




Hi juddy hows it going?
If you know anything about Muslims you'd know that their teaching does not advocate harming, terrorizing anyone. [not enough time I have to dash out] it's the radical ideology in all 'religion' that sees everything askew. Slanted for their own purpose.
I do not think religion is the cause of the trouble in the world as a whole today.

Will check in later....cheers


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> I for one being christian found this disturbing....very disturbing.....



WHATT!!  Good grief Charlie Brown !!!

Nelly for once I agree with you lol. (not the christian part - the very disturbing part)

teacher: "I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in ..um.. in Pakistan and in Israel and Palestine and all those different places (looks like she wouldn't know if the world was flat or round, let alone where Pakistan is - I personally wouldnt have picked Pakistan as an example of people laying down their lives):silly:
kid1: "you know a lot of people die for God and , and, they're not even afraid (smiles, looks contented and confident in this philosophy)
kid2: "You know its kinda like being trained to be warriors - but in a much funner way" (smiles)

Sheesh is this lady going to apologise when these kids "lay down their lives" as she asks?  Fruitloop material.

Thank god for the funny side of USA? -  Charlie Brown, Doonsbury.  You'd have to assume they are starting to get swamped by the extremists however. (please tell me I'm wrong).
I took the family through some bible belt, not far from Grand Canyon as I recall  - "and here is the 9 oclock news, they have just discovered proof of genesis 13/99" etc etc for ten minutes " -  :nuts:   
wowo Not sure I want to march beside these people - they'll lead us off a bloody cliff!!

PPSI remember the movie of Ghandi - almost dead after fasting for weeks - asks a Hindi follower beside him " I want you to adopt a Moslem boy " , reluctnat "ok", - "but" continues Ghandi " I want you to bring him up as a Muslim" - now there was an example of a beautiful extremist.
Maybe ask this lady :silly:  if she'd be interested in following that example (instead of Osama)


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

voiceover :- "This camp is by many accounts perhaps a small and extreme slice of what some say is a growing intensifying evangelical youth movement "

Theres that word "perhaps" = Mate it is looney tunes personified!!

lol - what is it? a spade or a shovel is by many accounts perhaps a metal implement used, some say, for digging.


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

Be interesting to hear what the Pope would say about that website / footage- him being a reluctant member of Hitler youth and all.


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

> True Forgiveness: Amish mourn killer of five schoolgirls
> Sunday Oct 8 11:37 AEST
> AP - Dozens of Amish neighbours came out to mourn the quiet milkman who killed five of their young girls and wounded five more in a brief, unfathomable rampage.   Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was buried Saturday in his wife's family plot behind a small Methodist church, a few kilometres from the one-room schoolhouse he stormed on Monday. His wife, Marie, and their three small children looked on as Roberts was buried beside the pink, heart-shaped grave of the infant daughter whose death nine years ago apparently haunted him, said Bruce Porter, a fire department chaplain from Colorado who attended the service.http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=150635




As I understand it, JC had pretty much one principal principle "forgiveness works!".  It has to be the backbone of a heap of psychology.  I get the feeling (reading the above news) that the Amish would understand this better than most.  And are the healthier for it. 
I would guess that JC's intention was that forgiveness should be unqualified, forgive, forget etcetc.  However I found a couple of quotes which suggest that not all Americans think that way 

Hillary Rodham Clinton: In the Bible it says they asked Jesus how many times you should forgive, and he said 70 times 7. Well, I want you all to know that I'm keeping a chart.

John F. Kennedy: Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.  (try the CIA and the FBI john, ... et tu  Hoover?)

nor a pom...
William Blake: It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend.


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

> Don Hirschberg: Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.



Lol.  I was wondering if anyone can think of a smart bit of repartee here lol...

a) presumably an agnostic has one of those blue/red/blonde/brown/auburn conglomerates that show up in hollywood from time to time - preferably with  dreadlocks in question marks,   
b) So what have you got against gloss pink, Don
c) Just because youve got dandruff Don, much of which you're not even aware of...
d) At least bald people are easily shown not to be hiding any horms
e) I have a lot more trust in hair restorers than I do in heaven and hell?
f) Calling Galileo a bald heretic is like saying the world is flat.
g) Calling Science a religion is like taking all the fun out of wild speculation
h) ...



> Jimmy Buffett : Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care.


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## Happy (8 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> f) Calling Galileo a bald heretic is like saying the world is flat.




I was bit surprised to hear that universe is flat, it makes those pre-Copernicus look as if they knew something.

Another bit of info grabbed my attention that some Muslim taxi drivers refuse pick up clients with alcohol and clients with guide dogs.

I wander how this will pan out?


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> I was bit surprised to hear that universe is flat, it makes those pre-Copernicus look as if they knew something.
> 
> Another bit of info grabbed my attention that some Muslim taxi drivers refuse pick up clients with alcohol and clients with guide dogs.




lol you got me - technically more correct to say the earth revolved round sun 
I copy this from a previous post   ( to Bloved as I recall) 


> I think Galileo 1564 - 1642 takes the cake for the Semmelweis award, at least for the 17th century - over his opinion that the Earth revolved round the sun, although the church insisted otherwise. "G was forced to recant his views and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. Following his recantation, G is said to have murmured Eppur si Muove (still itmoves). He was finally cleared of heresy by a Vatican commission in 1992!" Who said the church wasnt heavily into forgiveness.




Yes Ive found Muslim taxi drivers who frown bigtime on drinking - they don't drink why should others etc - quote the Koran etc.  Never realised there was a problem with guidedogs though - presumably its the dog thats the problem?
Where are we heading m8? well nowhere in that taxi at least   (dont ask me).


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## Mofra (8 October 2006)

Once again, we can't seem to see the wood for the trees. 
It isn't following a particular faith, but the _application_ of said faith that holds to most trepidation for the general populace (read: most vocal members of the popular media).

When two groups of people are fighting over who has the better "imaginary friend", the semantics of whichever ancient text they follow would seem a little irrelevent.


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## Happy (8 October 2006)

Extrapolating this unwillingness to do something, imagine if doctor refused life saving treatment on religious grounds.

Actually anybody serving community, refusing service on religious grounds should not be in service industry.

Our leaders will have to think of something.

I wander how penalties for spitting are going?
Are introduced laws upheld, or blind eye is turned for a while to cater for religious reasons?


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## nelly (8 October 2006)

True Forgiveness: Amish mourn killer of five schoolgirls
Sunday Oct 8 11:37 AEST
AP - Dozens of Amish neighbours came out to mourn the quiet milkman who killed five of their young girls and wounded five more in a brief, unfathomable rampage. Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was buried Saturday in his wife's family plot behind a small Methodist church, a few kilometres from the one-room schoolhouse he stormed on Monday.

Hey 20/20...
The forgiveness these people have shown and the ethics they obviously live by are more then admirable IMHO... [No wonder they frown on ties with the outside world.] If more people had hearts and minds along those lines we would be a lot better off.
cheerful


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## wayneL (8 October 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> I for one being christian found this disturbing....very disturbing..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM&eurl=
> 
> ...




If people have ever wondered why I think the USA is the most dangerous country on the planet...these are the types of folk with their finger hovering over the red button.

Yessirree these are the Christian Zionists.


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## Julia (8 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Extrapolating this unwillingness to do something, imagine if doctor refused life saving treatment on religious grounds.
> 
> Actually anybody serving community, refusing service on religious grounds should not be in service industry.




Happy,

I can assure you there are doctors out there who will never refer a woman for a termination of pregnancy and will not prescribe oral contraceptives to ummarried women!!!  Yes, really!

Julia


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## 2020hindsight (8 October 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> . ..will not prescribe oral contraceptives to ummarried women!!!  Yes, really!Julia



Ill stick with the uncontroversial one Julia lol - but there's a couple more promises to add to the new years day citizenship commitment ...

I promise   ( I promise) 
that if become a taxi driver or a doctor (that if i become a taxi driver or a doctor)
that I do solemny swear ( sorry - I refuse to swear ) 
 nono -- ok we'll skip that part 
that I will pick up someone carrying a sixpack and/or prescribe contraceptives to unmaried women"   (that I will pick up women using contraceptives ) 
nono , you have to read the page...

PS don't forget the Pope (who knows about these things, after all he goes out each Friday night and celibates) says that you go to hell if you use oral contraceptives   and eternity is a long time to be stoking fires.


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## nelly (9 October 2006)

20/20 have u been taking humour pills or summmit.......your posts have been very....how to say it......well funny...haha funny.
[the only laugh i've had all day]
Thanks!
cheerful :70:


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## 2020hindsight (9 October 2006)

Id like you all to raise your hand and sing the national anthem - 
But firstly have a gander - look at all the rest and count'em
If any of you reckon that there's more in here than 4???..
then sorry but youve failed test one - and there's the flaming door.

Now crowd around the three of you and here's a simple question
how many times has Shane Warne been accused of bold incest-ion
And also how do googlies fly when he is on his metal?
You've No idea? well sorry love, try next year's test my petal.

Now...two of yous, and one more test - The Kelly gang was how big?
I'm sorry these are so damned easy - (thats a bludy dig )
1000 you say - damned if I know, - that sure sounds too many !
So sorry mate youre out as well, its surely less than twenny.

OK mate congrats, last one, promise - for the koala bear,
Repeat for me the words intact of "Vance Australia Square"
"Australians all eat ostriches?" - well that'll do for now..
Now here's your piece of fancy paper - face the queen and bow ...


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## macca (9 October 2006)

Hi Julia,

On that subject, I think it is Merriwa in NSW where the only pharmacy in town refuses to stock contraceptives on religious grounds (RC).


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## bunyip (9 October 2006)

Here's an example of the claptrap that religions use to brainwash kids in Australian schools.....

When two of my children attended a private Catholic primary school in a rural town, one of the teachers was telling a story at assembly one Monday morning.
The story was the wondrous tale of Farmer Brown, who planted his crop but then ran into a patch of dry weather. Not a problem.....Farmer Brown prayed to God to send down rain on his crop. And God sent down the rain and Farmer Browns crop grew strong and healthy and produced a bountiful harvest.

There were many farming families who had kids at that school, and quite a few of these farmers and/or their wives were present at that assembly, myself included. As this silly little twit of a teacher was telling this ridiculous yarn, making out that farmers can simply call for rain any time they want, and God will oblige, the farmers present were looking at each other and rolling their eyes in disbelief and disgust. The entire district was at the time in the grip of a severe drought. My own sorghum crop had failed and I'd already fed it off to cattle. The various churches had held numerous 'pray for rain' meetings.
But the drought continued, yet here was this silly little female teacher, fresh out of Brisbane on her first teaching job in the bush, brainwashing the kids and even telling us adults that farmers could get rain any time they want, simply by praying for it.
This sort of thing goes on in schools of all religions, not just Catholic.

Was just watching a segment on TV about the severe drought in the Golburn Valley. The city of Golburn is in dire straits with regard to water. One of the church congregations has held a 'pray for rain meeting' every weekend for the last four years, yet the drought goes on and the water storages continue shrinking. When it finally rains, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Golburn Christian community will be spruiking about the power of prayer.

Bunyip


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## 2020hindsight (9 October 2006)

macca said:
			
		

> Hi Julia,On that subject, I think it is Merriwa in NSW where the only pharmacy in town refuses to stock contraceptives on religious grounds (RC).



A.   Being (sadly) serious - deadly serious - for a minute - (and stating the well known obvious)  there are plenty of third world countries where condoms arent used because the church disapproves.  (Why doesnt the church keep its nose out of sex? - stick to the teachings of JC?).

I guess you'd have to say that Heaven will be overcrowded with the victims who obey this anticondom instruction, .... and it will get damned lonely in hell, where they used em.   Forgive those missionaries for they know not what they are doing...  

B.  Speaking of missionaries - and a 180degree change of direction - I remember a bible-belt-judge in USA (mormon as I recall) ruling that a young man who had killed his father was sentenced to become an overseas missionary for 2 years - "go out into the world and tell people how to behave - bring em to jaysus !!" - what a cheek lol.  I wondered if that judge really thought of how stupid and hypocritical that sentence was - but I bet he wouldn't understand my concerns even if I painted them in ten foot letters.    

Like the old red indian said -   when the white man came, we had the land, and he had religion .... now we have religion, and he seems to have most of the land.  Such an honourable breed those pioneering christians.
"religion is the opiate of the masses" - as every US president, and every army colonel has known since JC was a boy in nappies.

PS Bunyip 







> the power of prayer



- not wrong mate - and if I didnt believe it before, I sure realise by now that you've seen it up close and personal.   My cousin had a property for 3 years - no rain - before she realised the roof leaked - but I gotta feeling she had more sense than to blame God for either the drought or the rain.  Maybe global warming, but not God   "so dry that the trees were chasing after the dogs" as they say.


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## rocket_science (11 October 2006)

Bunyip, I'd like to hear the teacher's version of what was actually said before deciding on who has their facts straight and who hasn't.

I doubt very much that anyone would tell a story in which they guarantee that every one who prays to God asking for rain, sunshine.....a new ferrari   .....that their wishes will be granted on every single occassion.

If you want guarantees for wish-lists then try looking for an ancient bottle washed up on some deserted beach and hope there is a jeanie inside


----------



## bunyip (11 October 2006)

rocket_science said:
			
		

> Bunyip, I'd like to hear the teacher's version of what was actually said before deciding on who has their facts straight and who hasn't.
> 
> I doubt very much that anyone would tell a story in which they guarantee that every one who prays to God asking for rain, sunshine.....a new ferrari   .....that their wishes will be granted on every single occassion.
> 
> If you want guarantees for wish-lists then try looking for an ancient bottle washed up on some deserted beach and hope there is a jeanie inside




I'm telling it how it happened. Believe it or disbelieve it...it's all the same to me.
Incidentally, I didn't say she told a story in which she guaranteed that everyone who prays to God asking for rain, sunshine, a new Ferrari or whatever, will have their wishes granted on every single occasion.

What she did was tell a fanciful story about a farmer who prayed to God to send down rain on his crop, and God complied with his request. The clearly implied moral of her story was that God delivers when asked for help.
This is similar to the sort of nonsense that was constantly fed to me in Sunday school, which my mother forced me to attend every Sunday between the ages of about four and twelve.

Bunyip


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## rocket_science (11 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> I'm telling it how it happened. Believe it or disbelieve it...it's all the same to me.
> Incidentally, I didn't say she told a story in which she guaranteed that everyone who prays to God asking for rain, sunshine, a new Ferrari or whatever, will have their wishes granted on every single occasion.
> 
> What she did was tell a fanciful story about a farmer who prayed to God to send down rain on his crop, and God complied with his request. The clearly implied moral of her story was that God delivers when asked for help.
> ...




your comment earlier:



> But the drought continued, yet here was this silly little female teacher, fresh out of Brisbane on her first teaching job in the bush, brainwashing the kids and even telling us adults that farmers could get rain any time they want, simply by praying for it.




this is telling me that you were saying that the teacher's story said that farmers could get rain any time they wanted simply by praying - which to me means that you are saying that she said that prayers will be answered in the affirmative every single time, guaranteed.

I think you most probably misunderstood the message she was tying to convey or maybe she wasn't as clear as she could have been.

Either way I doubt very much the story was as you described so that is why I'd like to hear her version of the story she told.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 October 2006)

I can tell you that the third world can get it seriously mixed up ...
a) where was it ? somewhere they thought they'd pay homage to the "ole fella he lib long sky" - and made a special Easter tribute - trouble was they nailed Father Xmas to the cross 
b) I can tell you that you can buy prayers in Philippines - specially round Cebu - on small cards - one prayer I recall you could put under a pillow and you'd immeditely get over the flue - and also (the same prayer) under the pillow of a woman in labour would mean an immediate and painless delivery.
Wouldn't it be terible if you went to bed with the flue, and woke up with a baby !


----------



## bunyip (11 October 2006)

rocket_science said:
			
		

> your comment earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A few months ago we had on this forum a character called Bullmarket. 
He had a habit of attempting to cast doubt on people who related real life stories and incidents.
He ended up getting banned, much to the relief of the forum generally.
You're not Bullmarket in disguise are you?


----------



## Bobby (11 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> A few months ago we had on this forum a character called Bullmarket.
> He had a habit of attempting to cast doubt on people who related real life stories and incidents.
> He ended up getting banned, much to the relief of the forum generally.
> You're not Bullmarket in disguise are you?




Its bull for sure , easy to tell by the phraseology !
What a  poor plasticine intellect


----------



## Julia (11 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> A few months ago we had on this forum a character called Bullmarket.
> He had a habit of attempting to cast doubt on people who related real life stories and incidents.
> He ended up getting banned, much to the relief of the forum generally.
> You're not Bullmarket in disguise are you?




Well, Bunyip, I don't know much about the "in disguise" bit - not much of a disguise when the warped personality shows through so clearly.

You'll have to do better than that, bull.

Julia


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## petee (11 October 2006)

hi all..i think before any of us attacks or judges the church..we should look at our own lives to see what we r actually doing to help others and the poor..as Julia stated..the salvation army are doing so much work worldwide to comfort the poor and oppressed thru war etc..world vision does so much and many others..who are we to judge these ppl who could trade shares and be selfish and money hungry..no they give their time and efforts to comfort others..judge and u will be judged


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## pacer (12 October 2006)

Havn't you guys got something better to do than crap on about the philosophy of us educated monkeys....get a life....go fishing....Wierdo's.......kill the Thread and go catch  fish before all the Japs get'm....and good luck 'cause the Japs got most of 'em already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wayneL (12 October 2006)

pacer said:
			
		

> Havn't you guys got something better to do than crap on about the philosophy of us educated monkeys....get a life....go fishing....Wierdo's.......kill the Thread and go catch  fish before all the Japs get'm....and good luck 'cause the Japs got most of 'em already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Pacer,

Thank you for your opinion, which one can glean from your rant, if one looks hard enough.  

Some people actually enjoy discussing such topics, even perhaps more than fishing. I have had several immensly pleasurable exchanges on the subject, some close to the point of action stations.

Politics... same deal. 

Gets the blood up... exersizes the brain... good stuff.

Cheers


----------



## barney (12 October 2006)

pacer said:
			
		

> Havn't you guys got something better to do than crap on about the philosophy of us educated monkeys....get a life....go fishing....Wierdo's.......kill the Thread and go catch  fish before all the Japs get'm....and good luck 'cause the Japs got most of 'em already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Hey Pacer,  what are you still doing up at 3.30 in the morning .......... hasn't that Burbon kicked in yet??    We all know you go to church on Sundays so dont deny it     Cheers, Barney.

PS I like the new photo Wayne ............still waiting for the "bear" to return ..... my "shorts" are getting tight!!


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## wayneL (12 October 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> PS I like the new photo Wayne ............still waiting for the "bear" to return ..... my "shorts" are getting tight!!




Thanks  

I figure if I can trick the cosmos in thinking I've turned super bullish, it's bound to tank....


...and looks whats happened since I put the Dent photo up and the "Dow 2,000,000 by 2008" comment up. It's tanked it (with a little bit of help from Mr Ben)


----------



## barney (12 October 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> I figure if I can trick the cosmos in thinking I've turned super bullish, it's bound to tank....
> 
> ...




Arh, so I see, I hadn't looked for a couple of hours .......... down 42 points as I type  ... make that 49 points ............ that bear works fast    .......make that 64 points .........by the time I finish this sentence it'll be  71 ...........whoa there .............. 62 ............coming back ............... 59 ................... 52 .... now I'm getting dizzy ..............  47 .......... I think the bear fell off his bike Wayne !.................... 46 ............ 44......... 47 ...... He's back on   ....... 55   good fight back   only skinned his knees!

PS Sorry guys...pretty much off topic here ............  :topic   forgot which thread I was in!


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> I'm telling it how it happened. Believe it or disbelieve it...it's all the same to me.  Incidentally, I didn't say she told a story in which she guaranteed that everyone who prays to God asking for rain, sunshine, a new Ferrari or whatever, will have their wishes granted on every single occasion. Bunyip



1. When it comes to rain dances and the like, (or even trading I guess) its hard to overstate the importance of timing.
2. Hope springs eternal in the human breast / chest as applicable.
3. Even a heathen red indian's.
4. Even country folk I guess.
5. For the church to get involved, like that teacher - my bet is she's working on the "double or nothing" system. 
PS as for Bullrush whatever, what was it Shakespears said - the quality of mercy is not strained it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven ? 

PS Rocket science - you keep up that dancing Id say we're gonna get rain for sure.


----------



## bunyip (12 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> 1. When it comes to rain dances and the like, (or even trading I guess) its hard to overstate the importance of timing.
> PS Rocket science - you keep up that dancing Id say we're gonna get rain for sure.




Talking of rain dances.....not sure if this is true or not but it makes an amusing yarn anyway.
Out on the central Queensland gemfields, at a pub in a little town called Anakie (I'm sure some of you have been there), a well known local called Jimbo was as drunk as a lord one night during the 1969 drought.

The blokes at the bar were discussing the drought, or more specifically, when it was going to break. Jimbo says "I'll break the drought tonight for you if you like...I'll do one of my rain dances. Matter of fact I'll do it right now".

So Jimbo staggers outside, followed by a crowd of people, and does a red Indian style rain dance outside the pub. By morning the sky was overcast and later that day, rain set in. And not just a bit of rain either....the story goes that it rained for a week and broke the drought.

Anyway, that's the story......as I said, not sure if there's any truth in it. But some of the locals out there vow and declare it's true!

Bunyip


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## Sean K (12 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Talking of rain dances.....not sure if this is true or not but it makes an amusing yarn anyway.
> Out on the central Queensland gemfields, at a pub in a little town called Anakie (I'm sure some of you have been there), a well known local called Jimbo was as drunk as a lord one night during the 1969 drought.
> 
> The blokes at the bar were discussing the drought, or more specifically, when it was going to break. Jimbo says "I'll break the drought tonight for you if you like...I'll do one of my rain dances. Matter of fact I'll do it right now".
> ...




LOL

Is Jimbo now a declared diety in what I imagine to be a large Aboriginal population?


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## 2020hindsight (12 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> So Jimbo staggers outside, followed by a crowd of people, and does a red Indian style rain dance outside the pub. By morning the sky was overcast and later that day, rain set in.



Mate - do the math - say it rains once per 3 years and you drink 3 beers a night - thats 1 chance in 1000 to avoid paying for a shout for a month (100 beers)!! Or 1 in 10 chance for a free beer!  might try it myself next time Im out west 

PS I knew a bloke at Rubyvale (just up the road from Anakie) - digging for sapphires obviously - He was the only bloke on the gemfields with a piano lol.  But there was method in his madness - practiced "religiously" every day - then ...when we went into the pub in town, he would sit at the piano - and - neither of us ever paid for a beer as far as I recall 

I also remember the well being poisoned by someone - throwing in soap suds - sheesh - everyone got sick.  After that we went to pub quite a lot.

PPS - your rain dancing friend would have been super popular on the gemfields - after decent rain , you can "spec" for sapphires and find em on the surface "all over the place"  - sure I found at least one that way lol.


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## bunyip (12 October 2006)

Ahhhh......I see that Rocket Science or Bullmarket or whoever he is, now has the honour of having 'on permanent holiday' attached to his name.

Great stuff Joe......keep horsewhipping the silly bugger off this forum every time he shows up, and sooner or later he might just get the message that he's not wanted here.

Bunyip


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## pacer (12 October 2006)

Dunno about there being a GOD but now I belive in hell.....I'll never drink vodka again!!!!!

What a bummer of a day....went for a sauna and couldn't even work up a sweat.......DOH!

Did make $450 on CFD's though so it wasn't all bad....if only I could do that every day and give up the EVIL funny juice, I'd be alot happier......but a bored christian/buhddist geek trader with no life....lol...


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## Rocket Scientist (13 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Ahhhh......I see that Rocket Science or Bullmarket or whoever he is, now has the honour of having 'on permanent holiday' attached to his name.
> 
> Great stuff Joe......keep horsewhipping the silly bugger off this forum every time he shows up, and sooner or later he might just get the message that he's not wanted here.
> 
> Bunyip




Huh ??? things aren't always what they seem


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## Rocket Scientist (13 October 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> A few months ago we had on this forum a character called Bullmarket.
> He had a habit of attempting to cast doubt on people who related real life stories and incidents.
> He ended up getting banned, much to the relief of the forum generally.
> You're not Bullmarket in disguise are you?




No, I think you have me confused with someone else  :


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 October 2006)

Rocket Scientist said:
			
		

> No, I think you have me confused with someone else




Rocket - maybe I can act as arbitrator. (ps Im in kamakazie mode) 



> this is telling me that you were saying that the teacher's story said that farmers could get rain any time they wanted simply by praying - which to me means that you are saying that she said that prayers will be answered in the affirmative every single time, guaranteed.  I think you most probably misunderstood the message she was tying to convey or maybe she wasn't as clear as she could have been.  Either way I doubt very much the story was as you described so that is why I'd like to hear her version of the story she told.




What exactly is your problem with Bunyip's story? - The message is surely a common one - "kids are taught to expect prayers to deliver" Do you contest this? Do you believe otherwise? On what evidence would you tell kids to believe in miracles?


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## 2020hindsight (13 October 2006)

rocket_science said:
			
		

> or maybe she wasn't as clear as she could have been.



- maybe she didnt know what she was saying - or maybe she had her fingers crossed behind her back ?.  in any event it's a "reductio ad absurdum" - or "a questionable contribution to the thread"


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## nizar (13 October 2006)

I found this email while i was cleaning up my inbox. It was sent to me sometime ago. I think it may be relevant for discussion here.



> An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the
> problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new
> Christian students to stand and.....
> 
> ...




I love the conclusion:  *"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"*


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## 2020hindsight (13 October 2006)

nizar said:
			
		

> .. I think it may be relevant for discussion here. I love the conclusion:  "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"



Nizar, I enjoyed reading your answer  but I dont see the answers to the questions asked ... let's assume that you are right - that the iron gets sharpened.  I could as easily relate a story of when I asked a Physics professor "why does the volkswagen manual say that you should accelerate around corners" - he came back after a few days with the answer "you have to keep the traffic moving" !

Apart from the fact that it is all about negative steer and dynamic friction being less than static friction,  (which neither he nor I understood at the time) ... it illustrates the point that Professors are only human as well.

Guess I could insist that the question be answered before moving on, but to be honest it really isnt that important - Bunyips story was 
a) self contained,
b) had a moral, and was worth the telling, and
c) there was little or no point is claiming that he had misunderstood the person who made the claim that prayers for rain would help. 

We should all probably move on, without gettin bogged in the detail.


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## nelly (30 October 2006)

Thanks for that nizar.........
Cheerful


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## Sean K (30 October 2006)

My God! Here we go again. The govenment using the tax payer dollar to subsidise schools to employ chaplains to provide 'spiritual guidance' (read brainwashing). Don't we live in a secular society? The sooner government stays completely out of the religious game, and religion stays behind closed doors and only accessable if you ask for it, the better we'll all be.

I wonder how much Sheik Taj in a-bin al-Hilarious has been handed to incite hatred against mainstream Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20667879-1702,00.html


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## Sean K (30 October 2006)

At least the Democrats are thinking logically.

*Plan is inappropriate, say Democrats*
October 30, 2006

The federal Government's plan to employ chaplains at schools across Australia is another example of an inappropriate marriage between religion and politics, the Australian Democrats say.

Prime Minister John Howard announced the $90 million program yesterday, saying it was entirely voluntary and not designed to favour chaplains of any one religion.

Under the program, which aims to provide grief counselling and spiritual guidance to students, all schools will be able to apply for subsidies of up to $20,000 a year to employ a chaplain.

However, Democrats leader Lyn Allison said the move risked blurring the line between church and state.

"We say government schools should be secular and this money would be much better spent on school counsellors or youth workers," Ms Allison told ABC radio today.

"Essentially, what's happening is the prime minister is asking taxpayers to fund what is essentially a religious activity."


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## Julia (30 October 2006)

Kennas

I understand your objections, but there are already many schools which employ chaplains.  Through my involvement with Youth Mentoring, I've met the two blokes at the two local State High Schools, and believe me, religion is not what they're on about.  They're realistic and tuned into teenagers' problems.  They will answer questions if a student is into religion but don't instigate any discussion about that.  

Last year I was mentoring a 15 year old girl who had some very "challenging" behaviours.  She was consistently suspended for some pretty outrageous acts. However, she declared that she "loved God", so when she was in need of someone to talk to at school she chose the Chaplain rather than the counsellor.  

They're not walking round in clerical garb etc. and,  from the way they are greeted warmly by the students on the campus, and from comments from the teachers plus my own contact, I think these people can only have a positive effect for the schools.  (Well, that is if they are all like the two I know.)

Julia


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## Rafa (30 October 2006)

The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.

end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...

Frankly, even tho I am no Howard lover... i applaud this move to put some substance and morality back into the education system. 

I think most people are seeing the results of the policies that was brought in previously re 
1. politcal correctness, 
2. all this crap about there is no right or wrong, its up to you concience, bla bla bla... 
3. etc...

and the results of these policies are looking right at them in the form of their kids... 
and the results are there to see right now with the nutcase muslim preachers getting away with talkin utter tripe, 
and the results will be seen in the next fed election when even more votes leave the nothing parties like the democrats!

The beginning of the end of all civilisations is when they forget their roots and their core beliefs and end up standing for nothing!


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## zed327 (30 October 2006)

Religion sucks! Keep it out of our school and let our kids free think and not get manipulated when they are young and easy to twist thier minds.


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## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.
> 
> end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...
> 
> ...





Rafa, should it be religion that brings this morality to our children? Or, why don't we teach general good values that lead to a better society without having to attach dogma to it. 

Not all religion is 'moral' as you have presumed. 

The beginning of the end of civilisation is when we stop thinking freely and cling to ancient values and traditions based on cultures developed in the Middle East 2-3000 years ago. Yes, that's where Christianity, Judaism and Islam all come from. Asia.


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## stockGURU (30 October 2006)

Religions place should be in the home and the church (or in religious schools), not in what should be a secular state funded education system.

Keep religion out of our public school system.


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## Space Cadet (30 October 2006)

agrees with Rafa



			
				Rafa said:
			
		

> The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.
> 
> end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...
> 
> ...


----------



## professor_frink (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.
> 
> end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...
> 
> ...



Don't you watch 60 minutes Rafa- Attachment parenting is the way of the future! No need for religion now- children are to be breast fed until they're 10, must sleep with their mother till they're a teenager, and they aren't to be disciplined......ever. It's the only way to raise well adjusted kids with no mental problems whatsoever


----------



## Rafa (30 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Rafa, should it be religion that brings this morality to our children? Or, why don't we teach general good values that lead to a better society without having to attach dogma to it.
> 
> Not all religion is 'moral' as you have presumed.
> 
> The beginning of the end of civilisation is when we stop thinking freely and cling to ancient values and traditions based on cultures developed in the Middle East 2-3000 years ago. Yes, that's where Christianity, Judaism and Islam all come from. Asia.




These general good values you talk about, all stem from religion. (incidentally, you forgot the other religions that stem from India... Hinduism, Buddhism, etc)

The ancient values and traditions you talk about...  I for one am not big on ancient tradition and ritual, especially if you do it as a matter of routine rather than meaning.

However, the core values of 'respect', 'love thy neighbour', 'do good unto others', all the stuff that you feel you need to teach kids, all comes from religion. 

You take that out, you take out the reason to be good and do good things, Things like Karma, Heaven, etc...

I am not advocating the dogmatic following of any one particular religion, or even that everyone needs to beleive in one GOD, many Gods, or even no GOD at all!.... 

But I am not about to discount the role the many religions played over the last 7000 years ...  knowing the  the alternative expreriment that has been in operation in the last two decades is proving to be such a spectacular disaster... (and now the Prof tells me about this new method on 60 minutes... well, GOD help us all!!!     ) Its amazing how clever we think we all are, just cause we've invented the aeroplane and the mobile phone!!!)

Still, if the majority of us are happy with that, thats fine, VOTE DEMOCRATS! Just don't complain about the 'how back in the old days when you could leave your house door open, etc, etc...


----------



## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> These general good values you talk about, all stem from religion. (incidentally, you forgot the other religions that stem from India... Hinduism, Buddhism, etc)
> 
> The ancient values and traditions you talk about...  I for one am not big on ancient tradition and ritual, especially if you do it as a matter of routine rather than meaning.
> 
> ...




Your argument fails because religious values did not spring from thin air, nor God. They wre developed from existing cultural laws of the day. Religion is based on culture, not the other way around. Your premise is a common misconception which can't be used as a supporting argument to belief in the supernatural.


----------



## Rafa (30 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Your argument fails because religious values did not spring from thin air, nor God. They wre developed from existing cultural laws of the day. Religion is based on culture, not the other way around. Your premise is a common misconception which can't be used as a supporting argument to belief in the supernatural.




I disagree with that...I highly doubt that Christianity was based on existing Jewish culture...

I mean, most Jews thought Jesus was an idiot... cause the culture at the time was an 'eye for and eye'... stone the criminal... He preached the exact opposite, including 'don't waste your time on empty rituals imposed by rabbi's' and was subsequently executed for that! Hardly the work of someone trying to fit into the existing culture.

Christianity was a new way to live..... It helped create a new culture, the one you reside in today, that gave you the freedom to do the thiings you wanted, within moral boundaries of right and wrong. 

Yes, Humans then took religion and formed their own establishments and institutions around this, and have screwed things up again, but thats another story...

But regardless, it helped create our culture and civilisation that you now take for granted.

So, when you talk about religion and culture, and as to what came first, I think your missing the point (like the chicken and the egg)... They are intertwined... One cannot exists without the other...


----------



## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> I disagree with that...I highly doubt that Christianity was based on existing Jewish culture...
> 
> I mean, most Jews thought Jesus was an idiot... cause the culture at the time was an 'eye for and eye'... stone the criminal... He preached the exact opposite, including 'don't waste your time on empty rituals imposed by rabbi's' and was subsequently executed for that! Hardly the work of someone trying to fit into the existing culture.
> 
> ...




Rafa, I think you'll find all of the 'religions of the book', ie Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are actually sects of the Cult of Abraham. They all worship his God: Yahwah. 

The basis of the three religions (apart from one God) are the Ten Commandments (Islam puts a slightly different spin on it) which are part of The Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament.

From Wikipedia:

The Ten Commandments, or Decalogue, are a list of religious and moral imperatives which, according to the Hebrew Bible, were written by God and given to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of two stone tablets. They feature prominently in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.


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## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Oh, and I might be convinced at some point that religion and culture are intertwined somehow, but at the moment, I still think culture comes first. We invented religion and God in our own image, not the other way around. IMO of course!


----------



## Rafa (30 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Oh, and I might be convinced at some point that religion and culture are intertwined somehow, but at the moment, I still think culture comes first. We invented religion and God in our own image, not the other way around. IMO of course!




Fair enough, as i said, i am not fussed whether you belive in one GOD, many GODS or no GOD... (eg Buddhism...)... Religion is more that just that... is a way to live.



> The basis of the three religions (apart from one God) are the Ten Commandments (Islam puts a slightly different spin on it) which are part of The Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament.




Christianity is more that just the Old Testament Abraham stories... That is still something that is used by fundamnetalist christians, muslims and jews to justify getting women to wear hijabs, amongst other crazy things!

I highly doubt you'll be able to fine one quote from Jesus (who incidentally founded Christianity, and not Abraham, etc...), when talking about a way to live, that is remotely close to the popular culture at the time... which included blaming women for seducing men... something the fundametal islamist are still carrying on about!

Infact, when he was asked quite clearly, as to how to live life... he said forget about Moses's commandments.... Just follow these two... Love God and Love they neighbour!

As a christian, I am still struggling to work out why the old testament is even part of the bible.... I guess its is more a history lesson, if anything...


----------



## Space Cadet (30 October 2006)

IMO of course  I think Rafa has it the right way round.

The Ten Commandments, which teach us what values and morals we should live by came first and then various cultures, idealogies etc have flowed from then over the ages.

The world is a mess now because over the centuries various groups have either rejected the Ten Commandments alltogether, developed their own agendas and idealogies and misinterpreted and twisted whatever scriptures suit their cause to justify their actions and views.

Maybe if the whole world just took a deep breath and went back to basics then eventually our world will not self destruct as it appears it will - sooner rather than later.  I think we're not far off the point of no return at the moment.


----------



## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Fair enough, as i said, i am not fussed whether you belive in one GOD, many GODS or no GOD... (eg Buddhism...)... Religion is more that just that... is a way to live.
> 
> Christianity is more that just the Old Testament Abraham stories... That is still something that is used by fundamnetalist christians, muslims and jews to justify getting women to wear hijabs, amongst other crazy things!
> 
> ...




Yeah, the Old Testament is a pretty scary read. The New Testament is Christianity, and yes, it's all about love and forgiveness, not fire and brimstone. The reason for this is the type of society people were living in at the time. It suited a purpose. The Tribe of Moses, needed fire and brimstone to control the people under extremely harsh conditions, and to fight wars to take their land as ganted to them by God. Yahweh, at that time, was actually the God of War and just one of the Gods of the Elohim. (Exactly when he became the One God is unclear) He suited Moseses cause in leading the Israelites out of The Sinai. He was a motivational tool more than anything. 

I'm not actually sure if Jesus officially formed 'Christianity'. Christianity is based on him, but it wasn't until the Council of Nicea that Christain doctrine was formalised. Up till then it was a whole mix of ideas with many contradictions. (Haven't you read the Da Vinci Code?   )


----------



## Rafa (30 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Yeah, the Old Testament is a pretty scary read. The New Testament is Christianity, and yes, it's all about love and forgiveness, not fire and brimstone. The reason for this is the type of society people were living in at the time. It suited a purpose. The Tribe of Moses, needed fire and brimstone to control the people under extremely harsh conditions, and to fight wars to take their land as ganted to them by God. Yahweh, at that time, was actually the God of War and just one of the Gods of the Elohim. (Exactly when he became the One God is unclear) He suited Moseses cause in leading the Israelites out of The Sinai. He was a motivational tool more than anything.
> 
> I'm not actually sure if Jesus officially formed 'Christianity'. Christianity is based on him, but it wasn't until the Council of Nicea that Christain doctrine was formalised. Up till then it was a whole mix of ideas with many contradictions. (Haven't you read the Da Vinci Code?   )




the old da vinci code... yeah, i saw the movie too, not too bad that one.


Agree with your points about Yahweh... certainly Jesus preached about a new age, metrosexual so to speak, God!    much to the annoyace of the fire and brimstrone rabbi going around at that time.



I fail to see how teaching everyone about Jesus's teachings can do any harm at all.... but yes, keep the dogma and the fundamentalism out of it.

Is that possible???... 


But then, is it really possible to teach most humans about morality and appropriate behaviour without the concepts of God, karma, heaven and hell, etc... So far, that answer is sounding more like NO as well...


----------



## Sean K (30 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> But then, is it really possible to teach most humans about morality and appropriate behaviour without the concepts of God, karma, heaven and hell, etc... So far, that answer is sounding more like NO as well...




Yes, I agree that teaching right and wrong through logic and reason is very difficult. It's easier to answer the tough questions about right and wrong and why we are here, origin of the universe, etc, with the answer 'because God says'. Or 'God made it so'. This is the easy option and one indoctrinated into children by parents and the church becasue it's easier to explain and an easy way of controlling children, and society for that matter: Do that and you go to HELL!!!   ..etc. Be good and you go to Heaven.  Easy! It's much more difficult for us to reason and convince children, and most people, through logic, that they should be 'good', for the betterment of themselves and others. Much tougher. By hey, why not try it?


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree that teaching right and wrong through logic and reason is very difficult. ...Do that and you go to HELL!!!   ..etc. Be good and you go to Heaven.  Easy! It's much more difficult for us to reason and convince children



Kennas - you're probablyXXX definitely right, but it's more of a veiled threat.  ( and Im not talking about being attacked by moslem women ).  And works best on 3 year olds I guess. My kids were never Christened, so they'd wonder what the HELL I was talking about if I carried onlike that.   I just tell em "an honest man/woman is the noblest work of God" - and that's the only time I mention God - I then swing across to the honesty bit.  BTW now that they're teenagers etc, doesnt matter what I say anyways. They tell me what values they have adopted.   I agree with you that the church should stay out of schools.  well meaning but....  In the army (just as in society and I guess in schools) there's no question that religion is used as a manipulative tool, "the opiate of the masses" 
PS   Lol - this is really a plug for poetry thread #84  .

Quote :- "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet " - Napoleon Bonaparte 1769 - 1821

Praps I would agree that :-  "If is conceivable that religion may be morally useful without being intellectually sustainable" - John Stuart Mills 1806 - 1873. ??  Still cant see justification for govt funding for religious instruction.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Praps I would agree that :-  "If is conceivable that religion may be morally useful without being intellectually sustainable" - John Stuart Mills 1806 - 1873. ??  Still cant see justification for govt funding for religious instruction.



Not that I'm gonna burn the missus' bra over this. 

In thinking about it some more -  maybe the "opiate" of religious instruction is better than some of the other opiates being offered to kids these days.   Just as long as they stick to morality in preference to "ringing those heavenly bells" - and giving those bad boys in the corner lessons on how to stoke fires.


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

I got a pretty big issue with Religion as a whole. And im known to speak alot about religion to my friends and such. 

But i believe that there should be rules for religion, as to not force people to join them but let them choose. Also not to allow a religious view in parliament, when you bring a certain religious view into parliament you are saying 'stuff you' to other religions. 

Such as the big thing about pornography and sex, theres been a load of research and surveys about whether or not adults should be allowed to choose pornography, usually it was 60%+ in favour of allowing adults to choose to view pornography, the research showed that there was no effect to adults that view pornography and that the people that were affected were more suseptable (dont know how to spell that) to any type of addiction such as gambling. Though because of the churches power and of there stronghold on parliament, noone listens to all the research and of the peoples views. 

Church and religion also gives a grim view on sex as being something to be ashamed about and sinful when in actual fact its the total opposite, you create children with sex, Jesus was able to have sex (he was made in the human image), Mary having immaculate conception is seen to be a miracle and thats it, it doesnt show that having sex is wrong. 

(Yes i know im rambling)

Though you have to just see around the world and you will see religion everywhere and then the Religion complains about dropping numbers one everything (sex, pornography, violence).

Ive been to Hillsong, the big church thats always in the news for making millions and millions in profit. And you feel pressured to join, you join cause either your friends join, or cause your friends or other people push you so that you can be holy. And then after you join from them pushing you they say it was you who chose and not them pushing you. They teach each other that not to separate themselves from the World but never join the World. (most of my friends are Christians, for me to be able to see them I usually would have to go to the Church, to see them.)

I believe religion door knocking should be illegal, religion going into private work areas should also be illegal (strip clubs). This should be illegal as it is just preying on the deprived, if you go to a begger and say ill give you $100 to cluck like a chicken in the street they will, if you go to a place like a strip club that society looks down upon and say that if you join us you will be saved from all your sins, of course some will join. 

(Theres my rant over, I think for now)


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

Just thought ill post this link. Pretty interesting read of Stephen Baldwin interview.

http://ksexradio.com/ksexblog/post/index/33/Actor-Stephen-Baldwin-to-appear-on-KSEX-Wanker-Show


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## 2020hindsight (31 October 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> I believe religion door knocking should be illegal, religion going into private work areas should also be illegal (strip clubs). This should be illegal as it is just preying on the deprived, if you go to a begger and say ill give you $100 to cluck like a chicken in the street they will, if you go to a place like a strip club that society looks down upon and say that if you join us you will be saved from all your sins, of course some will join.



Joshy
just a quik rant in reply:-
1. Mormons knocking on Aussie dorrs sheesh - I guess the needy countries dont have ready access to Big Macs. 
2. Mind you Macdonalds is nearly a religion in itself these days - at least to the teenagers.
3. I think youve got a better chance of converting the begger - and the stripper taking you up on the "$100 cluk like a chicken" offer
4. btw never thought of a strip club being a work place b4 
5. I'm sure you'd agree that the Salvos are welcome anywhere,  - and my guess is that even the stripper would interrupt her act to donate - such is the RESPECT for a TRULY philanthropic church.


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## Space Cadet (31 October 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> ............Such as the big thing about pornography and sex, theres been a load of research and surveys about whether or not adults should be allowed to choose pornography, usually it was 60%+ in favour of allowing adults to choose to view pornography, the research showed that there was no effect to adults that view pornography and that the people that were affected were more suseptable (dont know how to spell that) to any type of addiction such as gambling.............
> 
> .............Church and religion also gives a grim view on sex as being something to be ashamed about and sinful when in actual fact its the total opposite, you create children with sex, Jesus was able to have sex (he was made in the human image), Mary having immaculate conception is seen to be a miracle and thats it, it doesnt show that having sex is wrong...........




JoshyJ, either I am missing something or you are contradicting yourself to some extent.

You say that research (of which you don't quote any sources) showed that pornography had no affect on adults and then later in the same sentence you say that some actually were affected and that they were more susceptible to gambling or whatever - so which is it? Does the research show some adults are affected or that none are affected?

I also disagree that churches and religion give a grim view of sex.

I think you'll find most, if not all, teach that sex should be reserved for within the institution of marriage between a man and a woman because of the stability and bond etc etc that the institution of marriage is supposed to bring when a man and woman marry.  

So the only question is whether people accept this or not and that is a whole new ball game and discussion which could go on forever but IMO the above does not portray sex as grim.


----------



## Sean K (31 October 2006)

Space Cadet said:
			
		

> I also disagree that churches and religion give a grim view of sex.




Funny how many churchy people I know call having sex 'having a naughty'. 

I think the original reasons for keeping sex in marriage was to control people and society to some extent. Way back when we didn't know how to control reproduction. Now we can control it, so lets just relax and enjoy it.   

Oh, hang on, we can't because we're not allowed to use condoms or contraception because 'life is sacred'. Sperm is sacred? Geesh!


----------



## Space Cadet (31 October 2006)

We could go on forever and round in circles discussing this until we each disappear up our own orifices lol 

Suffice to say that there are numerous references in the New Testament that say having sex outside of marriage (and I mean between a man and woman married to each other and not to someone else..lol..) is comitting adultery.

And that's good enough for me.


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

Well ive heard lots of highly respected in political and religious circles as saying that as long as you are having sex for fun you are sining even if your married, the only way to have sex without sining is for reproduction purposes.


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

Space Cadet said:
			
		

> JoshyJ, either I am missing something or you are contradicting yourself to some extent.
> 
> You say that research (of which you don't quote any sources) showed that pornography had no affect on adults and then later in the same sentence you say that some actually were affected and that they were more susceptible to gambling or whatever - so which is it? Does the research show some adults are affected or that none are affected?
> 
> ...




Sorry if it confused you, what i mean by it is, that those who say they were affected were usually affected cause of mental instability and not cause of the pornography itself, like children who play out violence cause of video games. 

Its like the usual story where the exwife complains saying that pornography caused there breakup as she couldnt satisfy her exhusband anymore. When what would of been the reason that pushed him to pornography in the first place.


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Funny how many churchy people I know call having sex 'having a naughty'.
> 
> I think the original reasons for keeping sex in marriage was to control people and society to some extent. Way back when we didn't know how to control reproduction. Now we can control it, so lets just relax and enjoy it.
> 
> Oh, hang on, we can't because we're not allowed to use condoms or contraception because 'life is sacred'. Sperm is sacred? Geesh!




Thing is when you think of how its a way to control people is when you hear the stories/news reports of how people are not having enough children, and they wonder hopelessly what to do or just give the normal speech "please have children".


----------



## Rafa (31 October 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> Its like the usual story where the exwife complains saying that pornography caused there breakup as she couldnt satisfy her exhusband anymore. When what would of been the reason that pushed him to pornography in the first place.




your beginning to sound like a certain mufti.... blaming the wives again, but this time, for turning to pornography!!!

Whats next.....???


----------



## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> your beginning to sound like a certain mufti.... blaming the wives again, but this time, for turning to pornogrophy!!!
> 
> Whats next.....???




I'm not blaming just the wife im just saying maybe there relationship was in trouble before the husband even started to get into pr0n. (if someone starts watching pr0n, there has to be something that got him to do it, even if it might just be curiosity.)


----------



## Space Cadet (31 October 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> Well ive heard lots of highly respected in political and religious circles as saying that as long as you are having sex for fun you are sining even if your married, the only way to have sex without sining is for reproduction purposes.




If you are using contraception then yes, I believe you are as well.

The intent, and we can go around in circles ad-infinitum on this one as well, behind having sex in marriage apart from giving your spouse love and pleasure should be to leave open the possibility of producing a new life every time and I am sure that you know there are times when the probability of a woman becoming pregnant is at a maximum and a minimum, so IMO that eliminates the need for contraception. 

So imo, according to most churches teachings I think you'll find that couples are free to have sex during marriage whenever they like without it being a sin as long as they leave open the possibility of producing human life by limiting their sexual activities to the times during the which the probability of a woman becoming pregnant best suits their plans.


----------



## nioka (31 October 2006)

Look at it this way: We live in the lucky country because, in the past that is, we live and are governed on CHRISTIAN principles. The 10 commandants are the best basis for living in harmony that I can think of. Has anyone got a better set of principles???


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## weird (31 October 2006)

> I think the original reasons for keeping sex in marriage was to control people and society to some extent. Way back when we didn't know how to control reproduction. Now we can control it, so lets just relax and enjoy it.




Kennas,

Just curious, which team do you bat for, if you know what I mean ?

I understand why homosexuals would have issues with the teachings of Christianity and the Church.


----------



## Space Cadet (31 October 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> Look at it this way: We live in the lucky country because, in the past that is, we live and are governed on CHRISTIAN principles. The 10 commandants are the best basis for living in harmony that I can think of. Has anyone got a better set of principles???




The 10 commandants    - were they in Hogan's Heroes???    - sorry couldn't resist   

*But I agree 100% with your post.*


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## JoshyJ (31 October 2006)

and Christian principles, came from Jewish principles.


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## Julia (31 October 2006)

Space Cadet said:
			
		

> If you are using contraception then yes, I believe you are as well.
> 
> The intent, and we can go around in circles ad-infinitum on this one as well, behind having sex in marriage apart from giving your spouse love and pleasure should be to leave open the possibility of producing a new life every time and I am sure that you know there are times when the probability of a woman becoming pregnant is at a maximum and a minimum, so IMO that eliminates the need for contraception.
> 
> So imo, according to most churches teachings I think you'll find that couples are free to have sex during marriage whenever they like without it being a sin as long as they leave open the possibility of producing human life by limiting their sexual activities to the times during the which the probability of a woman becoming pregnant best suits their plans.




Without meaning any disrespect to the poster, I'm astonished to find this view expressed in 2006!

Julia


----------



## Julia (31 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> your beginning to sound like a certain mufti.... blaming the wives again, but this time, for turning to pornography!!!
> 
> Whats next.....???



Ah, yes, Rafa.  But even worse, what about the wives who may enjoy a bit of pr0n themselves???

Julia


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 October 2006)

Space Cadet said:
			
		

> and I am sure that you know there are times when the probability of a woman becoming pregnant is at a maximum and a minimum, so IMO that eliminates the need for contraception.



Shhesh - and I thought gambling on the ASX was frought with danger !!  
Cadet - lets say you have a 5% chance of getting it wrong - so after 10 years you have , well several extra kids that you didnt expect?  (the only thing saving you from a complete disaster is the fact the the missus wont fall pregnant twice in the same 9 months!).

This is lunacy man.  Just because rubbers (and pills etc etc) weren't invented when JC was a virile young man doesnt mean to say they are a sin!!  

Do you think the disciples knew that the world was round for instance?

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/jesus-christ-superstar/the-last-supper.html
"Always hoped that I'd be an apostle
Knew that I would make it if I tried
Then when we retire we can write the gospels
So they'll still talk about us when we've died".

PS let's not even talk about the thousands dying of AIDS throughout the third world because some idiot in Rome ( no names no pack drill) tells these poor unfortunates that it's a sin!  (In the event of gettin AIDS please contact our complaints dept in the Vatican .....ring ring  ..... ring ring....."we appreciate your call, and one of our operators will be with you asap" - "hello - yes well the bad news - you've got AIDS, but the good news is...fanfare....drum roll.... you will go to HEAVEN because you didnt use a condom... yeahhh")


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## JoshyJ (1 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Ah, yes, Rafa.  But even worse, what about the wives who may enjoy a bit of pr0n themselves???
> 
> Julia




Gotta love that stereotype that women never watch pr0n. When even if they freely express that there are girls that are promiscuous, actually choose to go into adult industry and show off that they watch pr0n. Society sees it as a male only domain. 

Just wondering who here believes that donations actually help third world countries or who here believes that donations hinder the growth or goes around the actual problem (such as going around politics such as how there are talks/reports on how the African ministry destroy businesses with bulldozers simply cause they are making a pretty good wage and that business is growing).


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## Space Cadet (1 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Without meaning any disrespect to the poster, I'm astonished to find this view expressed in 2006!
> 
> Julia




Why would you be so astonished that this view is expressed in 2006?

After all, hasn't it been at least the Catholic Church's view since day 1?

And yes, I'm sure there are a number of Catholics who don't accept this view but as far as I can tell the greater majority do.


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Kennas,
> 
> Just curious, which team do you bat for, if you know what I mean ?
> 
> I understand why homosexuals would have issues with the teachings of Christianity and the Church.




Weird question weird.

Does it actually matter?

Are you homophobic, prejudice, scared, of the evil poofs?

I'm hetrosexual buddy, but there's nothing wrong with that!


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

I have a question:

Is Space Cadet and Bullmarket in disguise?


----------



## Space Cadet (1 November 2006)

2020hindsight

There have been numerous cases where couples have conceived children even though they used contraception at the time.  So contraception is not 100% fail safe.

So the options open to a couple who had an unplanned child while not using contraception are the same as those open to a couple who did use contraception and still were "unlucky" to conceive a child.


----------



## Rafa (1 November 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> and Christian principles, came from Jewish principles.




well, don't think there is much similarity between christian and jewish principles at all, besides the one God bit...

If that were the case, Jesus wouldn't have been hung! Sure, there may be some rituals and garments that are common, but don't get confused between rituals and principles.




			
				Julia said:
			
		

> Ah, yes, Rafa.  But even worse, what about the wives who may enjoy a bit of pr0n themselves???
> 
> Julia




hehe, nice one Julia...





its amazing, when it all boils down to it, the only problem people seem to have with religion, is to do with sex!


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> well, don't think there is much similarity between christian and jewish principles at all, besides the one God bit...
> 
> If that were the case, Jesus wouldn't have been hung! Sure, there may be some rituals and garments that are common, but don't get confused between rituals and principles.
> 
> its amazing, when it all boils down to it, the only problem people seem to have with religion, is to do with sex!




1. JC was a Jew.

2. Just sex? 

What about Jihad, witch hunts, The Crusades, prevention of blood transfusions, Catholic v Protestant wars in GB, Martydom, The Spanish Inquisition, English and Spanish colonialism forcing conversion to Christianity and the destruction of indigenous cultures around the world, Balkans religious cleansing, Massacre of half a million 'Communists' by religion in Indonesia, forced conversion to one of the 5 'approved' religions in Indonesia forcing many animists to cease practicing traditions beliefs, abuse of children by clergy..............

I could keep going for the entire day and not make a trade.......the list is endless!


----------



## Julia (1 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> I have a question:
> 
> Is Space Cadet and Bullmarket in disguise?



Seems likely to me, Kennas.

Julia


----------



## JoshyJ (1 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> well, don't think there is much similarity between christian and jewish principles at all, besides the one God bit...
> 
> If that were the case, Jesus wouldn't have been hung! Sure, there may be some rituals and garments that are common, but don't get confused between rituals and principles.
> 
> ...




My point was that JC was Jewish and that Christianity came from the Jewish Religion.


----------



## Nicks (1 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Without meaning any disrespect to the poster, I'm astonished to find this view expressed in 2006!
> 
> Julia




Well you did disrespect the poster. He / She is entitled to his view, and its not really a bad one is it? It is not one that I subscribe to but it certainly isnt a negative one if he / she chooses to practice it.
For the record I am non religious and dont share Space cadets views, but good on you for having them and stick to them. There are certainly many negative religious ideas out there and space cadets views dont seem to be negative to me.
Im sure there are views of mine and yours that others would be astonished with. Thank God (excuse the pun) we are in Australia and free.


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

Good on Space Cadet for not seeing logic and reason??? What the?

Good on the Taliban for sticking to their ideals too. Go Taliban! Go!! 

This overall argument is very difficult as there seems to be (in the most part) two types of people in this world.

One who believes in reason and can not understand religion. 
One who believes in religion and can not understand reason.


----------



## JoshyJ (1 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Good on Space Cadet for not seeing logic and reason??? What the?
> 
> Good on the Taliban for sticking to their ideals too. Go Taliban! Go!!
> 
> ...




And what Christianity isnt the same in sticking to their ideals too?


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

JoshyJ said:
			
		

> And what Christianity isnt the same in sticking to their ideals too?




Joshy, The point is that just because you 'stick to your ideals' does not make you a genius, or a saint. I think this is an extremely dangerous value in regard to religious beliefs. It's this devout stoicism that leads us to religious conflict all over the world.


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## Space Cadet (1 November 2006)

I'm not getting the impression that anyone in here is saying that they are a genius or saint for sticking up for their views.

What I see in here so far is just different people expressing their own views.

Kennas - I don't think anyone is sticking up for their personal views in here anymore than you or anyone else is sticking up for theirs.

The only ones I see around the globe trying to impose their view on the world atm are a small minority of twisted people claiming to be Muslims who are putting bombs to the rest of the world's head and saying we will blow you up unless you become one of us.


----------



## Sean K (1 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> What about Jihad, witch hunts, The Crusades, prevention of blood transfusions, Catholic v Protestant wars in GB, Martydom, The Spanish Inquisition, English and Spanish colonialism forcing conversion to Christianity and the destruction of indigenous cultures around the world, Balkans religious cleansing, Massacre of half a million 'Communists' by religion in Indonesia, forced conversion to one of the 5 'approved' religions in Indonesia forcing many animists to cease practicing traditions beliefs, abuse of children by clergy..............




Space Cadet,

Yes, just our views. We are being very polite today.   

I would like to add to the list of atrocities and discraseful interferences committed by all religions in the name of God that I listed above with the most recent 'moral' church sponsored program to stop therapeutic cloning.

These are not extremists. 

From The Age:

*Cloning bill has numbers*

Matthew Franklin and Patricia Karvelas
November 01, 2006

THE Senate looks almost certain to clear the way for scientists to conduct experiments involving therapeutic cloning.

Supporters of a private member's bill to be debated next week are confident they will have the numbers to win the conscience ballot despite intensifying lobbying against the move by churches and pro-life groups.

The bill, put forward by former health minister Kay Patterson, would lift a ban on cloning, also known as somatic nuclear cell transfer.

Under the research technique, a scientist injects adult genetic material into a human or animal egg which has had its nucleus removed. The resulting embryo is grown for up to 14 days and stripped of stem cells for use in research and creation of therapies to treat diseases.

While supporters see cloning as a means to cure illness, critics baulk at the creation of human life for research purposes.

Supporters of the bill said the only remaining obstacle to its passage was increasing pressure from interest groups and fears by some senators that voting for the law could cost them their electoral preselection.

"Some states have not yet completed their preselection seasons," said one senator.

"It's true that some people might vote against this bill even though they agree with it."

The comments came as opponents continued to flood senators with emails on cloning.

A website linked to the Australian Christian Lobby, which can be used as a platform from which to email a politician, has been the origin of more than 7000 emails in the past week and 17,149 since the debate began.

More than 11,800 people have signed the site's online petition opposing the bill. The email flood continued as cloning opponents rejected a report produced on Monday by the Senate's community affairs committee, which voted 5-3 to recommend that the bill be passed.

Catholic Health Australia chief executive Francis Sullivan said the report showed the scientific community was far from settled on the need to clone embryos. "The report does canvass many issues but fails to face head-on the fundamental issue at stake - that scientists wish to deliberately create human life to directly destroy it," he said.

Australian Federation of Right to Life Associations spokeswoman Kath Woolf said the Senate report was biased.


The church, interfering with politics and holding back the human race.


----------



## weird (1 November 2006)

> One who believes in reason and can not understand religion.
> One who believes in religion and can not understand reason.




There are 10 types of people, those you understand binary and those that don't.

I think you may want to increase the list to:

One who does not believe in religion and can not understand reason.
One who believes in reason and understands religion. 

Here are some of the latter,

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html


----------



## Rafa (1 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> The church, interfering with politics and holding back the human race.




I would say politics (man made) is whats caused a lot of the problems you mentioned in the first place! (and yes, religious institutions aren't immune from politics themselves)

Dogmatic following of any sort of rule or regulation is only going to lead to disaster... (Just like you typcasting people into two extremes...)


> One who believes in reason and can not understand religion.
> One who believes in religion and can not understand reason.




On the other hand, treating everyone the way you would like to be treated, having respect for all life (and the planet which allows us to live) and giving praise to a higher power (be it God, Mother Nature, etc)... for the good things... is the central message of most religions... 

Kennas, how can you go wrong with that?


----------



## Julia (1 November 2006)

Nicks said:
			
		

> Well you did disrespect the poster. He / She is entitled to his view, and its not really a bad one is it? It is not one that I subscribe to but it certainly isnt a negative one if he / she chooses to practice it.
> For the record I am non religious and dont share Space cadets views, but good on you for having them and stick to them. There are certainly many negative religious ideas out there and space cadets views dont seem to be negative to me.
> Im sure there are views of mine and yours that others would be astonished with. Thank God (excuse the pun) we are in Australia and free.



No, Nicks, I don't think I did disrespect the poster at all.  Had I done that I would have rubbished the view, and disagreed with it, probably presenting my own view in contradiction.  I didn't do any of that.  I merely offered a commentary on the mores of life in 2006.  Completely objective.  No judgement either way.

Julia


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## Space Cadet (1 November 2006)

Thanks for the support Nicks, but no offence was taken 

I have a pretty thick skin and I don't waste time getting upset from any cowardly personal attacks in chat forums 

Any personal attacks on other users I put down to coming from people whose shoe size is higher than their IQ


----------



## Nicks (1 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> No, Nicks, I don't think I did disrespect the poster at all.  Had I done that I would have rubbished the view, and disagreed with it, probably presenting my own view in contradiction.  I didn't do any of that.  I merely offered a commentary on the mores of life in 2006.  Completely objective.  No judgement either way.
> 
> Julia




sorry, not rubished or disagreed, just 'astonished' at his view, kindly without disrespect or judgement

and space cadet wasn't offended, 'I don't waste time getting upset from any cowardly personal attacks in chat forums'

you know what they say about discussing religion and politics....


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

Space Cadet said:
			
		

> I don't waste time getting upset from any cowardly personal attacks in chat forums ...I put down to coming from people whose shoe size is higher than their IQ



space cadet - your "IQ" and your "courage" would appear to be limited to what you are instructed to think - since by coincidence it coincides with Rome. 

As for shoe size - you'll never fill the shoes of the likes of most of the independent thinkers out there - or probably many in here either.  I'll keep my shoe size a secret.


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## pacer (1 November 2006)

Is *bourbon* a religion*?*.......I have a few religously and I do ok.....I'll have one right now, and toast to your spirtual health everyone.......cause thats all that matters realy.....once you've turned to dust - it's the next blokes turn.

What you do on this earth probably has stuffall to do with the other side, if there is one......different entities.......Religion is just a tool to control the masses with fear.....*religion is politics*.......don't be fooled!


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## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> "IQ" and "courage"



Here's a Challenge space cadet:-
1. Firstly , on IQ - this permanent holiday of yours - you wouldn't by any chance be travelling in the same van as Rocket Science maybe (who by coincidence is also on permanent holiday - and even has an animated avatar) ? (post #60), -  Feel free to tell me this is a coincidence.- which leads to the challenge ... 
2. "courage" -are you brave enough to list all your nicknames past and present - I'm sure you'd agree that hiding behind new nicknames isnt all that brave really, IF it applies to you.


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## retroaugogo (1 November 2006)

How to trap an atheist: Serve him a fine meal, then ask him if he believes there is a cook."  Author: Unknown

"The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer."  Author: Unknown

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." Author: Aquinas, Thomas



Come on guys don't give up.Look harder!


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

retroaugogo said:
			
		

> How to trap an atheist: Serve him a fine meal, then ask him if he believes there is a cook."  Come on guys don't give up.Look harder!



I have no problems with your comments Retro - but I cant condone overpopulation and rampant AIDS in the third world - being exacerbated by Rome. 
BTW - can you?
(PS - How to trap a Christian who is more interested in heaven than what's happening out there - take him to the third world - and hav him ask some kid when he last had a fine meal)


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## weird (1 November 2006)

The Blind Men and the Elephant

A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"

The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.

"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'

"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.

"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.

"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.

"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."

Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift,

          O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim 
          For preacher and monk the honored name! 
          For, quarreling, each to his view they cling. 
          Such folk see only one side of a thing. 

          Jainism and Buddhism. Udana 68-69: 
          Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant


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## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

pacer said:
			
		

> ...once you've turned to dust - it's the next blokes turn.



 - pacer - spoken like a true blue philosopher - even an all black one lol.

Like the old saying ...
In life there are two things to worry about - whether you're well or whether youre sick
if youre well you have nothing to worry about - if youre sick you only have two etcetc
whether you'll live or whether you'll die - If you'll live you have nothing to worry about - if you die you only have two etcetc
whether you'll go to heaven or to hell - if you go to heaven you have nothing to worry about - if you go to hell, you'll be so busy shaking hands with all your old mates (mere mortal sinners after all) to have any time to worry.   (PS anyone who hasnt heard that one hasn't toasted a round in a pub).

PS some people ad lib with the starting line, eg
"In life there are two things to worry about - "whether your wife loves you or doesnt"
then "whether your dog loves you or not"
then "whether anyone loves you or not"
then "whether you're rich or poor"
then "whether you're well or sick" etc from the top) 

Here's some ideas for a new starting line to consider :-
"whether the next generation will thank us or not"
"whether the world is going downhill or not"
Translated into "pacer" ...(I recall you posted one about the water level of the property you  bought) - "Will my property be above high tide mark"


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Buddhism...Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant



Weird , I love this sorta thing , and I could listen to the Dalai Lama for hours -except that I lost a lot of confidence in him when he announced that some kid found in China or whereever was DEFINITELY the reincarnation of some great Buddhist Monk.  Once again I thought to myself - the basic message of churches / religions so often gets tied up with gobblegook.  Christianity is largely (if not all) about forgiveness imho - Buddhisn largely (all?) about man blending with nature.  But I'm happy for you Christians and/or Buddhists to confirm or otherwise - Youre probably right - most of us around here are too set in our ways to be flexible ...or as you say ...
"each to his view they cling. 
Such folk see only one side of a thing.."

At the risk of offending, I dont think this parable has much "teeth".  I mean its a bit like the blind man who finds the elephant in his back yard eating grass. - Never having seen an elephant , he assumes its trunk is a tail, and he studies its movements carefully with his hands (and imagination) .. He suddenly becomes ALARMED.  . 
He rings his friend - "mate there's this wierd animal in the front yard" 
"what's it like?" came the reply - 
"well its got this tail "
" ahh probly just a horse or something -
" NONO , it gets grass with its tail" - 
"ahh probably just a monkey or something" ... 
" but but - you should see where its stuffing the grass!!". 

PS I love making "alternative conclusions" for parables and quotes and stuff.  - Even when I put them forward myself  - it helps to see "more than one side ofthe thing"


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## bluefin (1 November 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Here's a Challenge space cadet:-
> 1. Firstly , on IQ - this permanent holiday of yours - you wouldn't by any chance be travelling in the same van as Rocket Science maybe (who by coincidence is also on permanent holiday - and even has an animated avatar) ? (post #60), -  Feel free to tell me this is a coincidence.- which leads to the challenge ...
> 2. "courage" -are you brave enough to list all your nicknames past and present - I'm sure you'd agree that hiding behind new nicknames isnt all that brave really, IF it applies to you.




2020

I am a self funded retiree and so yes I suppose you could say I am on permanent holiday nowadays 

It's also common knowledge that I change my nic whenever I get tired of my current one.  I have done it for years - on this and other sites as well.

*Those that I know personally, I tell them my new nic when I change it.*

Whether anyone else knows which nic I am using doesn't interest me at all. 

 My view is that it's the content of my posts that people can take for what they think it's worth.  The nic under which I post is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

I've mentioned on this site under other nics that I change regularly and so you shouldn't be surprised if you've read my other posts.

And I know that other users on this and other sites also change their nic's periodically


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## nioka (1 November 2006)

retroaugogo said:
			
		

> To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." Author: Aquinas, Thomas!




Says it all.

If religion is the only thing preying on our youth we are in a good state.


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## 2020hindsight (1 November 2006)

bluefin said:
			
		

> I am a self funded retiree and so yes I suppose you could say I am on permanent holiday nowadays  It's also common knowledge that I change my nic whenever I get tired of my current one.



Gr8 m8, can I just ask that you keep adding that clue that you're "on permanent holidays".  Also can we refer to you as "the bloke who's on permanent holidays" - helps to understand the messages presented in the various posts.  
(My dog never misses a post btw, her idea of the morning paper lol). 

Btw , I dont see much evidence of your claim that people were cowardly back there ? - (let's accept that changing nics is ok and move on).


			
				 Space Cadet / On Permanent Holidays said:
			
		

> I have a pretty thick skin and I don't waste time getting upset from any cowardly personal attacks in chat forums
> 
> Any personal attacks on other users I put down to coming from people whose shoe size is higher than their IQ


----------



## bluefin (1 November 2006)

2020

I didn't accuse anyone in particular of being cowardly if you go back and read my post.

IMO Nicks misinterpreted Julia's post - I thanked him for his support but said that I took no offence at Julia's post and then made a general comment on how I see users who personally attack others - nothing more, nothing less.


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## Julia (1 November 2006)

Ok, so now we've had our obligatory dose of Bullmarket for the month in the form on Space Cadet and Bluefin, there will probably be a week or two before the next persona graces the forum.

The sad thing is, bull, if you're reading this, that you've actually got a lot of good stuff to offer amongst the dogma and dross.  Just a pity you feel obliged to be antagonistic and threatening when you're called to account.

And to 2020:  You've made some really thoughtful and interesting contributions to this thread.  Good to see someone with the capacity to clearly present their view but without being critical and unnecessarily antagonistic towards those who put forth the opposite view.  Ever considered a career in mediation??

Julia


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## 2020hindsight (2 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> And to 2020:  Ever considered a career in mediation??



Julia, thanks, lol - kind words, totally UNWARRANTED lol.   My kids fight really well together  - I'd like to say that my attempts at mediation had helped over the years, but to be honest Ive decided that my "help" there is counterproductive.  These days, I let them fight, and I stick to meditation instead .

Bluefin I suspect likes a stirr, and gets it lol.  (tell me if Im wrong Bluefin).  Bit like that Realist character lol.  Who elsewould have the "courage" to start a thread asking would people miss them ? lol  .  BTW, I wonder how he's going chatting up the French ladies.  My guess is that after a couple of weeks (or words?), they'll pick him as an FSL  "French as a second language".

He should have learnt (in French).."no this is my natural colour"
"as for the green tinge - well my mother was a blond who married a prince - but then my father turned into a frog" lol.  Sorry Im taking cheap shots at him when he's not here to defend himself. As if he'd care lol.


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## 2020hindsight (2 November 2006)

bluefin said:
			
		

> I am a self funded retiree and so yes I suppose you could say I am on permanent holiday nowadays



Buefin, when I said below helps to know who's posting , which in turn  "helps to understand the messages presented in the various posts" - here's an example:-

You are presumably 60+?, with a name like space cadet.  And here we all were wasting our breath trying to help you prevent unwanted pregnancies.  ?
I mean it's worth arguing with a youngster on these things - who nose , might stop them getting over confident when playing the Vatican Roulette game (personally Id stick to the casino for the other 29 days of the month).

But in your case, we were wasting our breath.  And  Hence I believe that you were stirring 
PS unless of course you have a young mistress on the side lol


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

10 signs you are a religious nut case:

#10 -- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

#9 -- You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that humans were created from dirt.

#8 -- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

#7 -- Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the male first-born babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" -- including women, children, and trees.

#6 -- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods consorting with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

#5 -- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is about a couple of generations old.

#4 -- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects -- will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering, and yet you consider your religion the /most/ "tolerant" and "loving."

#3 -- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor "speaking in tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" your choice of religions to be the correct one.

#2 -- You define .01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers, and consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% /failure/ was simply the will of God.

#1 -- You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but you still call yourself a Christian.


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

*Two Catholic clergy face court in NZ*
November 2, 2006 - 10:29AM

Two Catholic clergy extradited from Australia to face child sex charges have been bailed to appear in court early next year in New Zealand.

In Christchurch District Court, Judge David Saunders granted the bail without plea and allowed a change of address next week as part of their bail terms.

Their address on bail remains suppressed, though it is known they will remain in New Zealand.

A second suppression order forbidding any further publication of images of the two men remains in place.

The court papers listed the charges that brother Rodger Moloney, 71, and father Raymond Garchow, 59, will face.

*Moloney is charged with four counts of anal intercourse with a person aged under 16, 11 charges of doing an indecent act on a boy aged 12 to 16, and two charges of inducing a boy aged 12 to 16 to do an indecent act.

Garchow is charged with three counts of doing an indecent act on a boy aged 12 to 16, and five of inducing a boy of that age to do an indecent act.*

Rob Harrison of Auckland was defence counsel for the appearance.

He passed up to the judge a memorandum about the bail conditions and suppression orders, which had also been counter-signed by crown prosecutor Kerryn Beaton.

The pair will not have to appear for the pre-depositions conference on January 18 as long as counsel is present. That session may set a date for a depositions hearing.


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## Nicks (2 November 2006)

Ok, movnig on from misinterpretations, sorry Julia and Spacecadet,  just remember when talking religion and politics this can happen....

That said I like talking about these two subjects. I respect everyones view (so long as the views dont support harm to another person) Here is my view:

- Too many people on earth.
- I am athiest.
- I respect people who believe in religion thats non fanatical and non harming. Many good people who do many good things. I agree with some of the things and concepts some of the religions have.
- I dislike and disagree with some things in some religions, some more than others and am totally against some.
- I believe in being a good person and helping others.
- I have no problem with sex outside of marriage (marriage is a thing we invented, but it is a nice thing though)
- I believe religion should not interfere with research or contraception, however they are free not to practice either.
- We are creatures on earth just like the rest, have blood, brains, hearts and limbs like many other creatures and lucky enough to have probably the highest intelligence, just like horses are lucky enough to have higher intelligence than mice.
- We most probably evolved to get where we are now (ie would be different creatures to our ancestors 500,000 years ago who would be different to both of our ancestors again 5000,000 years ago etc etc)
- Religion has no place in politics, other than representation from someone elected, just like the rest of us expect representation
- Those elected are often (not always) sc**bags concerned often with their own self interests.
- I dont like smoking and cigarette butts  : )

I could go on. Just thought some people might be intested in my views as I have been many of yours. I guess there is something in here that everyone can find to disagree with!!

Cheers
Nick


----------



## weird (2 November 2006)

> Two Catholic clergy face court in NZ




Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, school teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?


----------



## Rafa (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> #1 -- You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but you still call yourself a Christian.




Only a fundamentalist christian fanatic or a fundamentalist aethiest/agnostic fanatic, (is that you kennas), would know so much about the Bible, Christianity and Church History...

Because for them, the literal meaning is more important than the intent...

I know what it is to be a Christian, and that is straight out of Jesus's mouth...

Love God and Love they Neighbour...

The Gospels are the only account is Jesus' actual teachings.
Everything is else in the Good Book is written by Man, and hence should be treated as such.


----------



## Rafa (2 November 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, school teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?




I think Kennas is saying all Catholics are child molesters...
Just like you are saying all Judges, Police Officer and teachers are too...       

Kennas, this ain't the US mid terms, you do not need to resort to cheap shots and mud slinging to prove your point!


----------



## Sean K (2 November 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, School teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?




You are correct, but aren't clergy supposed to God's messengers etc. This supports my contention that we are all just human. No one is actually special. Why would I confide in these type of people and trust them with my spiritual guidance (and children) when they are just as deranged as the next person. These people are the representatives of the church. The example of what the church and the religion stands for. 

When priests and ministers are sprouting how to live a 'moral' life, they MUST be beyond reproach. The few bad eggs (well, seemingly quite a few) have reduced the priesthood's credibility to zip. 

I do want to talk about Antioch soon. The cult of the Catholic Church in Australia responsible for brainwashing children......


----------



## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> I think Kennas is saying all Catholics are child molesters...
> Just like you are saying all Judges, Police Officer and teachers are too...
> 
> Kennas, this ain't the US mid terms, you do not need to resort to cheap shots and mud slinging to prove your point!




Sorry, not slinging mud. Presenting a news article from The Age this am. 

And definately not saying all Catholics are child molesters obviously. You must be just having a joke with me....I know some great Catholics, but I do discuss religion with them and disagree with them on why they need to get their morals from the book and The Pope (that guy living in a castle in Italy which houses the worlds greatest treasures - many pillaged from The Crusades and Spanish Conquests), and not just from what is best in the society they are living in right now.


----------



## weird (2 November 2006)

Kennas,

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

"Jesus didn't choose Judas to betray him. But Judas was always free, and he used his freedom to allow Satan to enter into him, and by his betrayal Jesus was crucified and executed. But God foresaw this evil and used to accomplish the ultimate good: the redemption of the world.

The point is, sometimes God's chosen ones betray him. That is a fact that we have to confront. If the early Christians had focused only on the scandal caused by Judas, the Church would have been finished before it even started to grow. Instead they recognized that you don't judge a movement by those who don't live it but by those who do. Rather than focusing on the betrayer, they focused on the other eleven on account of whose work, preaching, miracles, and love for Christ we are here today. It is on account of the other eleven-all of whom except John were martyred for Christ and for the gospel they proclaimed-that we ever heard the saving word of God, that we ever received the sacraments of eternal life."


----------



## Rafa (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Sorry, not slinging mud. Presenting a news article from The Age this am.





Well, look like taking cheap shots to me, rather irrelevant....


Anyway...

I tend to agree that power vested in humans is always dangerous, eg dictatorships, royal dynasties, etc, etc... Yes, and all the worlds great musuems contian artifacts from historic conquests... Lourve, the Hermitage, British Museum, etc... Why... that was humans do, we collect stuff!




SO back to your question...


> why they need to get their morals from the book





well, you gotta base it on something, and i'd rather base it on something that has stood the test of time... 

you asked a few pages to go... why not give this new method a shot... well, if you are happy to treat your kids as monkeys in a lab, go for it... I for one am not.



Sadly, the results of these 'social' experiments, just to appease a philosophy students trying to get their PhD are present in society today.

Its started 20-30 years ago, and we are already turning out kids with no sense of identity, purpose and goals, resulting in the highest numbers (% wise) of alcoholism, drug use, complete lack of an understanding of what is right and wrong... indulging in short term consumerism for temporary happiness... 


i could go on and on...


Its easy for you and me kennas, we already have our sense of identity and purpose firmly set in stone... and have the power to think for ourselves and make informed decisions.


you have to start thinking of future generations tho


as noika said...


> If religion is the only thing preying on our youth we are in a good state.


----------



## Happy (2 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 2, 2006
> 
> Home-grown terrorists 'a serious problem in Aust'
> 
> ...




Part of the problem is that a lot of people just live here in Australia.

Somebody comes here at some stage, embraces the culture and way of life, or brings in own values and hates part or all of what is here, brings up children, guides them certain way and as above quote suggests, some might be blown to pieces as confirmation of –theory-.

But if this happened in UK, and we have the same system or at least very similar why we can expect something else?


Today’s vote on Nine MSN - 

Poll: Do you fear a terror attack in your home town?

http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http://news.ninemsn.com.au/vote%


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

I didn't see the comment from Noika before. 

My question then..

Why not remove religion from the equation, and then there's nothing preying on our children.

My point in placing the article in this thread is that the 'brothers' raped and abused children. While any old person in the street may be capable of this, as you pointed out, it's mearly adding an extra argument to my point, that religion preys on youth in many ways. Weather that's by trying convert them while they are young and vulnerable, or sexually assault them.


----------



## weird (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> or sexually assault them.




Kennas, read the responses to your arguments ... this is just getting abit silly now ... I think you will find sufficient apologetics on the internet that will answer almost any of your questions anyhow.

C.S.Lewis has quite a few excellent books which explain Christianity (such as Mere Christianity).

He has a very good explanation of one of the more unpopular Christian’s views on sex.

Come back to us with better arguments.


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## Rafa (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> that religion preys on youth in many ways. Weather that's by trying convert them while they are young and vulnerable, or sexually assault them.





What happened to you when you were young kennas???




If you think removing religion will remove the sexual assualts, or terrorism, or whatever other evils, then i'm afraid you are very naive.

you need to separte the two... the divine from the man made.

Evils are committed by humans kennas... and will continue to be comiited as long as we are around!

And politicians will use whatever they can to gain power, religion is just one of the motivating factors in incite wars

Nationalism, Racism, are two more... i am sure you can name many more... u know the old British policy of Divide and Rule...


So whats next, when religion is wiped out and there are still wars, then abolish countries.... then abolish cultures, then abolish race... (not sure how besides genocide)...


If you really want utopia kennas, you should stop focussing on getting rid of religion, but rather focus on getting rid of greed, envy, etc...


But you will fail, because these traits, are part of being human.
And we certainly don't want to work towards getting rid of ourselves!


----------



## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> What happened to you when you were young kennas???
> 
> If you really want utopia kennas, you should stop focussing on getting rid of religion, but rather focus on getting rid of greed, envy, etc...
> 
> ...




Nothing really. Just started thinking one day.   

Oh, I do agree! Humans are just animals fighting for survival. Ultimately, it's why we do everything and anything.


----------



## Sean K (2 November 2006)

weird said:
			
		

> Kennas, read the responses to your arguments ... this is just getting abit silly now ... I think you will find sufficient apologetics on the internet that will answer almost any of your questions anyhow.
> 
> C.S.Lewis has quite a few excellent books which explain Christianity (such as Mere Christianity).
> 
> ...




The point is that young children are taken advantage of by people in authority and power. What greater power than the Priest?


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## 2020hindsight (2 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Well, look like taking cheap shots to me, rather irrelevant....SO back to your question...
> Sadly, the results of these 'social' experiments, just to appease a philosophy students trying to get their PhD are present in society today.
> 
> Its easy for you and me kennas, we already have our sense of identity and purpose firmly set in stone... and have the power to think for ourselves and make informed decisions.




Rafa
cheap shots? - I read Kennas posts - then your replies - and I conclude that this is all going - if not over your head - then intentinoally in one ear and no attempt to intercept / question / crossexamine the concept before it emerges from the other!!

Social experiments - if you are referring to stem cell research, so championed by Chris Reeve (superman) as a ray of hope for quadraplegics, I agree that we should have a consistent set of morals - nothing to do with JC that one - try Plato, and probably thousands of thinkers - no millions - before that.     But are you saying you won't partake in the benefits of this research?  - maybe we should get a list of PhD studies, research that directly help the likes of you and me, here now today, and based on "questionable" ethics in your eyes.  (like the Jehovahs Witnesses who interpret the Bible that you shouldn't have blood transfusions - "OVER my dead body " as they say  -  idiotic of course, but at least you can give them credit   for having the courage of their convictions)

PS Weird ,  you mention "Mere Christiamity "  - NOW you're talking.  Lets concentrate on the worthy teachings of the carpenter.  Forget the heaven and hell stuff.  

BTW theres absolutely no question (you'll agree I hope) that JC thought that the world was flat  - or would you chritians here contest that ?  _ And these days "wise men" who wlak around the desert following stars are treated with some academic ... ummm ... suspicion.


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

This thread seems to have gone down the Christain v Reason perspective which is understandable given the demographics of ASF members, but I would like to state that I did not intend this. My contention is that ALL religions try to get hold of children as young as possible, before they can think for themselves, and convert them to their particular faith. 

One of the most threatening things occuring around the world atm, imo, is the Islamic schools brainwashing children in societies that are very poor and unsettled. With no prospects for work and perceived to be opressed by the Western Christain world, these children are the Jihadists and martyrs of the future. 

Anyone seen Syriana? There is a tremendous example of how Muslim youth are recruited to be suicide bombers. Scarey.


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## Rafa (2 November 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Rafa
> Social experiments - if you are referring to stem cell research, so championed by Chris Reeve (superman) as a ray of hope for quadraplegics,
> 
> ....
> ...





2020, you haven't obiously read anything i have written either...
By social experiments, I am talking about what is happening, and been happening in our public schools for the last 20 years... and the results that are presenting themselves daily...

The social experiment i am referring to was...
'lets not teach kids what is right and wrong, based on faith or religion, or whatever, rather lets teach them that anything goes, as long as you really beleive it to be true... ! lets not teach them about respect, discipline, morality, history, etc, etc... 

That is what i meant!


and about the world being flat... 
Once again, there is no where in the Gospels Jesus proclaiming the world is flat and always will be!

Please don't blame him for the people in the middle ages held onto this dogma, wherever it came from!

As i have said all along, the followers of all religions are only human, are are swayed by greed, enny and a lust of power!

And the classic example is the terrorist movement today... 


But what i was saying to Kennas earlier, is you remove religion, there are other motivating forces for war.... Nationalism, Racism, etc... Don't think removing religion will solve that problem.


Humans will continue fighting, cause its all about survival, and its in our nature to be envious, greedy, power hungry, etc. Don't blame religion for that!

Erradicating religion, as the social experiment in western public schools has shown, only does more harm than good.


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> But what i was saying to Kennas earlier, is you remove religion, there are other motivating forces for war.... Nationalism, Racism, etc... Don't think removing religion will solve that problem.
> 
> Humans will continue fighting, cause its all about survival, and its in our nature to be envious, greedy, power hungry, etc. Don't blame religion for that!
> 
> Erradicating religion, as the social experiment in western public schools has shown, only does more harm than good.




I do agree that the route cause of all problems is humans themselves. Religion is just the vehicle often used to justify action. (that doesn't make it ok)

So, let's get rid of all the humans.   Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved!  Serious.


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## Rafa (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> So, let's get rid of all the humans.   Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved!  Serious.




i like that     
not to metion the benefits to the environment...


But in all seriousness, as long as we have different religions, races, cultures, hair colours, eye colours, skin colours, etc, etc... some wise politician will try to use that to gain power.


But imagine how boring the world would be if we were all the same!


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> i like that
> not to metion the benefits to the environment...
> 
> But in all seriousness, as long as we have different religions, races, cultures, hair colours, eye colours, skin colours, etc, etc... some wise politician will try to use that to gain power.
> ...




Well, if the female half all looked like Prospector I'd be happy.


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## Bobby (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> So, let's get rid of all the humans.   Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved!  Serious.




Yes Kennas the worlds population is stuffing up the planet, nature will cull billions in the future, this culling will be called an act of god by the convoluted


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## anon (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> I do agree that the route cause of all problems is humans themselves. Religion is just the vehicle often used to justify action. (that doesn't make it ok)
> 
> So, let's get rid of all the humans.   Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved!  Serious.





Religion used to be the driving force behind the Catholic Church. Now it's the driving force behind the Muslims. 


Go back a couple thousand years when population was a tiny fraction of what it is today. Romans had a fine army which subjugated a lot of Europe, including the British Isles, North Africa, Palestine etc. Before them there was Alexander The Great. After them there were Vikings, Barbarians.. Then Ghenghis Khan. Then Muslims. Space was not the objective. Getting rid of 80% of earth's population isn't going to fix that problem. But it would reduce the greenhouse gasses.

anon


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## Sean K (2 November 2006)

anon said:
			
		

> Religion used to be the driving force behind the Catholic Church. Now it's the driving force behind the Muslims.
> 
> 
> Go back a couple thousand years when population was a tiny fraction of what it is today. Romans had a fine army which subjugated a lot of Europe, including the British Isles, North Africa, Palestine etc. Before them there was Alexander The Great. After them there were Vikings, Barbarians.. Then Ghenghis Khan. Then Muslims. Space was not the objective. Getting rid of 80% of earth's population isn't going to fix that problem. But it would reduce the greenhouse gasses.
> ...




Good point anon. Ghenghis Khan!! Wasn't he a tree hugger?! Imagine if he had have had nuclear weapons? 

Perhaps I need to refine my reasons for deleting 80% of the pop....

Just how the hell do we live in peace????????????????

Or, is it just a pipedream?


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## new girl (2 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> This thread seems to have gone down the Christain v Reason perspective, but I would like to state that I did not intend this.
> 
> One of the most threatening things occuring around the world atm, imo, is the Islamic schools brainwashing children in societies that are very poor and unsettled.






Hi Kennas,

It's good to finally see you and Rafa agreeing on something. Peace at last!! 

You both come across as genuinely terrific guys, just different point of view (reminds me of technical vs. fundamental analysis!! I'm starting to believe by the way after what you said about CTO back in August). 

In my opinion, religion has no place in politics, values influenced by religion are welcome as long as they don't involve meat of any sort. 

No one should dispute science in any way. However, I don't think it offers anything for the spirit (unless you want to start jumping off couches because you're in love with someone half your age!) 

People are entitled to have a spiritual view of life without being ridiculed or having to apologise for it. The problem with the mufti and his gang is that they can only achieve their spiritual freedom by depriving me of mine and to that I say NO!!!

I do believe though that we need all switched-on people to join forces and focus on the THE most threatening issue. 

As 2020 always says, lots of love to you all.


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## 2020hindsight (3 November 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> 2020, you haven't obiously read anything i have written either...By social experiments, I am talking about what is happening, and been happening in our public schools for the last 20 years... and the results that are presenting themselves daily...That is what i meant!
> 
> and about the world being flat... Once again, there is no where in the Gospels Jesus proclaiming the world is flat and always will be!..Please don't blame him for the people in the middle ages held onto this dogma, wherever it came from!
> 
> ...




Apologies for the misunderstanding - we might agree on a few things after all - but I suspect disagree on more - hey - as long as we argue "like gents at the fence".  Peace seems to be reigning here - I'll slowly slip out.  :hide: 

New Girl - agree with (almost) everything you say lol- (laughs out loud) .


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## 2020hindsight (3 November 2006)

ALL EXTREMISTS SHOULD BE SHOT !!!!!!

ahhh SHUDDUP!!!!!


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## Boggo (2 July 2012)

Four Corners on ABC 2 may have some interesting insights to this topic tonight.


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## CanOz (2 July 2012)

Good Grief Boggo, ld: well done for digging this one up!

CanOz


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## Julia (2 July 2012)

Yet Cardinal Pell still says the church is dealing appropriately with this stuff.
How is it possible for the Catholic Church to be so exposed for its filthy abuse over so many years and yet still even keep functioning?


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## Boggo (2 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> Good Grief Boggo, ld: well done for digging this one up!
> CanOz




Worth keeping in everyones mind CanOz 



Julia said:


> Yet Cardinal Pell still says the church is dealing appropriately with this stuff.
> How is it possible for the Catholic Church to be so exposed for its filthy abuse over so many years and yet still even keep functioning?




Big $$$ influences in the right areas Julia. Pell is as crooked as they come but he is just doing what he has to.


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## Boggo (2 July 2012)

Julia, your PM Inbox is up to your quota limit.


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## lindsayf (2 July 2012)

Just about finished reading 'God is not Great' by Christopher Hitchens.
This is a powerful critique of all religions and brilliantly put together.
Makes me wonder how any of these archaic and baseless institutions can survive at all....but then we are very odd mammals arnt we!


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## Julia (3 July 2012)

Boggo said:


> Julia, your PM Inbox is up to your quota limit.



Sorry, Boggo.  Now cleared.


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## jersey10 (3 July 2012)

lindsayf said:


> Just about finished reading 'God is not Great' by Christopher Hitchens.
> This is a powerful critique of all religions and brilliantly put together.
> Makes me wonder how any of these archaic and baseless institutions can survive at all....but then we are very odd mammals arnt we!




I have spent hours watching Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins in debates on youtube and come to the same conclusion.  It is really quite sad and disheartening how pathetic and selfish people are in their delusions regarding religion.  Give it another hundred or so years and i think it will all be over with.


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## Sean K (3 July 2012)

jersey10 said:


> I have spent hours watching Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins in debates on youtube and come to the same conclusion.  It is really quite sad and disheartening how pathetic and selfish people are in their delusions regarding religion.  Give it another hundred or so years and i think it will all be over with.



It's hard to tell how much longer we will assign the unknown to a supernatural extraterrestrial who selected the tribes of Israel as his chosen people. One step closer I suppose with the LHC about to create life.


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## Sean K (4 July 2012)

kennas said:


> It's hard to tell how much longer we will assign the unknown to a supernatural extraterrestrial who selected the tribes of Israel as his chosen people. One step closer I suppose with the LHC about to create life.



And, perhaps the missing link discovered. 

*Higgs boson-like particle discovery claimed at LHC*
By Paul Rincon
Science editor, BBC News website, Geneva

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18702455


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## farmerge (Wednesday at 7:20 PM)

Just saw on the arvo news this afternoon that Cardinal George Pell has given up the ghost. So, now we will never know the truth. Perhaps St Peter has given him a roadmap to the nether regions below


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## basilio (Wednesday at 8:26 PM)

farmerge said:


> Just saw on the arvo news this afternoon that Cardinal George Pell has given up the ghost. So, now we will never know the truth. Perhaps St Peter has given him a roadmap to the nether regions below




Maybe. Maybe not.  I wouldn't be surprised if more information doesn't come out about George Pell after his death. I think his behaviour with regard to the avalanche of clerical abuse of children over a very long period of time will be rightly seen as  unconscionable.


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## SirRumpole (Wednesday at 8:46 PM)

basilio said:


> Maybe. Maybe not.  I wouldn't be surprised if more information doesn't come out about George Pell after his death. I think his behaviour with regard to the avalanche of clerical abuse of children over a very long period of time will be rightly seen as  unconscionable.



There is a question of flogging a dead horse that can't defend himself.

We've already seen that unsubstantiated allegations can cause miscarriages of justice.


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## basilio (Wednesday at 10:20 PM)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a question of flogging a dead horse that can't defend himself.
> 
> We've already seen that unsubstantiated allegations can cause miscarriages of justice.




There is no need to flog any dead horses about Cardinal Pell personally.
I was referring to hundreds of cases of clergy who abused thousands of children in the time that Archbishop Pell was  responsible for overseeing the clergy in Ballarat and then Melbourne.

Broken Rites has detailed these cases the effect it had on communities across Australia.

Father Gerald Ridsdale's life of crime and the church's cover-up. Background article​ 
This* Broken Rites *article is the most comprehensive account available about how the Catholic Church shuffled a paedophile priest, Father Gerald *Ridsdale*, from parish to parish for three decades while he committed sexual crimes against children. Broken Rites has been researching Ridsdale since May 1993, when he went to court for his first sentencing, accompanied by a bishop as his support person. Broken Rites began supporting Ridsdale's victims, resulting in five more court cases for Ridsdale between 1994 and 2020. More victims (now middle-aged) are still contracting the police about incidents from many years ago, and therefore Ridsdale (still in jail) is having his jail time increased. In October 2022, after Ridsdale pleaded guilty regarding two more of his victims, a court added two more years to Ridsdale's current jail sentence. _(By a Broken Rites researcher, article updated 05 January 2023.)






						Broken Rites Australia |    - researching the Catholic cover-up
					






					www.brokenrites.org.au
				



_


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## farmerge (Yesterday at 12:23 AM)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a question of flogging a dead horse that can't defend himself.
> 
> We've already seen that unsubstantiated allegations can cause miscarriages of justice.



Hmm  secrets taken to the grave


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## basilio (Yesterday at 7:44 PM)

farmerge said:


> Hmm  secrets taken to the grave




Not really.  The Royal Commission into Institutional Child abuse questioned Cardinal Pell extensively on his roles in the Catholic Church when the abuse of children by priests under his jurisdiction  was an ongoing disaster. This is a summary of their findings. Its worth taking 10 minutes to read in full.

George Pell: what the five-year royal commission into child sexual abuse found​Un-redacted report released in 2020 revealed how archbishop failed to take proper steps to act on complaints about dangerous priests

The child sexual abuse royal commission in 2020 released a bombshell un-redacted report examining the failings of George Pell during his time as an assistant priest, bishop, auxiliary bishop and cardinal in Australia.

The report found he both knew about child abuse, particularly within the Victorian diocese of Ballarat, and failed to take proper steps to act on complaints about dangerous priests.

The findings – which Pell always disputed – were arrived at after an exhaustive, five-year royal commission.

Here’s what the commission found about Pell’s conduct.

Pell’s knowledge of child abuse by paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale​
Gerald Ridsdale is one of the country’s most notorious paedophile priests.

He committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat, and continues to be convicted and sentenced for his crimes, most recently in October.

Pell lived with Ridsdale for a time in the 1970s, accompanied him to court in 1993, and offered to provide character evidence for him.









						George Pell: what the five-year royal commission into child sexual abuse found
					

Un-redacted report released in 2020 revealed how archbishop failed to take proper steps to act on complaints about dangerous priests




					www.theguardian.com


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## farmerge (Today at 12:28 AM)

basilio said:


> Not really.  The Royal Commission into Institutional Child abuse questioned Cardinal Pell extensively on his roles in the Catholic Church when the abuse of children by priests under his jurisdiction  was an ongoing disaster. This is a summary of their findings. Its worth taking 10 minutes to read in full.
> 
> George Pell: what the five-year royal commission into child sexual abuse found​Un-redacted report released in 2020 revealed how archbishop failed to take proper steps to act on complaints about dangerous priests
> 
> ...



Guilty they cried, but no was interested, too much power from within for the authorities to take and make the hard call. Just a slap on the wrist and then scamper off to a safe haven.


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