# Social Engineering



## Tisme (28 July 2017)

It appears the "Safe Schools" program is an onion agenda:

I think this is a must watch for anyone who lives in the normal world:



http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Very disturbing if true.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Very disturbing if true.




Her incorrect usage of the word "theory" is annoying, she sounds like the type of person that would say "Evolution is just a theory, its a theory, its just a theory", because they have no idea what that word actually means in the scientific context.

But once we are past that she also seems like a real alarmist thats prone to over reaction, I mean removing your Teenager from a high school because they dared mention "dildos" during sex education seems crazy to me.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But once we are past that she also seems like a real alarmist thats prone to over reaction, I mean removing your Teenager from a high school because they dared mention "dildos" during sex education seems crazy to me.




What she was complaining about was that parents were told "safe schools" was about anti bullying when in reality it was about an attempt to brainwash students into some sort of minority sexual agenda. If this is the case it should be stopped as NSW has apparently.

I've no idea if it's true, I don't have kids at school so maybe someone who does can enlighten us.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> in reality it was about an attempt to brainwash students into some sort of minority sexual agenda. If this is the case it should be stopped as NSW has apparently.
> .





What an alarmist might call brain washing to a minority sexual agenda, a rational person might just call explaining that different sexualities exist, and that it is ok.

I think sexual education is important, part of that is explaining the basics of reproduction, but I also see nothing wrong with getting into the topic of sexuality, sexually transmitted diseases, and even discussing mastubation. 

When I was at school the sex ed class discussed masterbation for about 2 mins (that was enough for me, lol), but it never discussed sexuality, I think that it should have though.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What an alarmist might call brain washing to a minority sexual agenda, a rational person might just call explaining that different sexualities exist, and that it is ok.
> 
> I think sexual education is important, part of that is explaining the basics of reproduction, but I also see nothing wrong with getting into the topic of sexuality, sexually transmitted diseases, and even discussing mastubation.
> 
> When I was at school the sex ed class discussed masterbation for about 2 mins (that was enough for me, lol), but it never discussed sexuality, I think that it should have though.




If they are going to do that then parents should have a right to attend those classes and know what is going on.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2017)

Perhaps we should introduce a unique Christian response to the issue of homosexuality. How about the Westboro Baptist Church.? (The URL is for real)

http://www.godhatesfags.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If they are going to do that then parents should have a right to attend those classes and know what is going on.



Why? 
Do you feel the need to have parents attend any other classes?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why?
> Do you feel the need to have parents attend any other classes?




You have a problem with parents attending their kids classes and seeing what value they are getting for their taxes ?


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You have a problem with parents attending their kids classes and seeing what value they are getting for their taxes ?



I actually asked you Why you feel parents would need to attend.

Then I asked you if it was all classes or just the sex ed ones.

I mean did you want parents interfering in the history classes, math classes or science classes.

Never in all my high school years did I ever see anyones parents attend any class.


> what value they are getting for their taxes ?




I am a tax payer, should I be allowed to go along and sit in classes?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Never in all my high school years did I ever see anyones parents attend any class.




We had open days frequently when I went to school.


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2017)

Think about my poor son who is intersex with two transgender parents. Always fun when mum plays at the local primary schools dad's footy day and dad go to the monthly mums luncheon. 

So people need to get out a little bit more, a child who can find access and they all can, to the internet is exposed to far, far worse, no cotton wool in internet land.

I cannot believe how square some people are.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We had open days frequently when I went to school.



but did parents regularly sit in classes out side of organised open days?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but did parents regularly sit in classes out side of organised open days?




There was nothing stopping them if they wanted to and some did.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There was nothing stopping them if they wanted to and some did.



Would you have wanted your parents sitting in on your sex ed class?

Remember we are talking about teenagers, who have reached or are on the cusp of reaching sexual maturity. At some point the Childs rights to be educated is outweighed by the parents rights to keep their child in a bubble.

Just because your parents happen to have certain beliefs or prefer to see you as a child rather than the young adult you are becoming doesn't mean they have the right to censor or distracted you from your education.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Would you have wanted your parents sitting in on your sex ed class?




It wouldn't matter what I as a child wanted, the parents were paying for the education and have a right to see whats going on.

Sex education in my day was always a parents/students arrangement.



> At some point the Childs rights to be educated is outweighed by the parents rights to keep their child in a bubble.




Educated by who according to what standards ? To say that parents have no rights in this matter is absurd.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

And anyway, what has bullying got to do with sex education ?


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Educated by who according to what standards ? To say that parents have no rights in this matter is absurd.




The parents rights do take a back seat when it comes to education.

For example to you think a parent has the right to deny schooling? 

If you agree a parent doesn't have the right to deny a child education in general, then it's just a matter of where the line gets drawn, and that line will be disagreed upon by some, but I think a child's right to sex education over rides a parents rights


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> For example to you think a parent has the right to deny schooling?




Denial is different to actually knowing what their children are being taught. In that I believe parents do have a right to know.


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but I think a child's right to sex education over rides a parents rights




Agreed. 
Education starts in the home, if you do not have a clear and open communication with your child, then it is you that has the problem, not the education system. Discussing sex, peoples sexual orientation should start early, it is human and normal.

I for one, find it amusing when my 11 year old comes home telling me that they had to fit a condom on a banana, but then I have a child that at the age of 3 came out of the bathroom with a stiffie, asking me, if dad, my dick goes hard, there must be a reason/purpose?

Openness and transparency is something every parent should engage in with their offspring.

We should encourage our children to question, not suppress them.

Off I go to try my high heels on.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Denial is different to actually knowing what their children are being taught. In that I believe parents do have a right to know.




I have never heard parents demanding to know what is being taught in the physics or chemistry lab, yet for some reason when it comes to sexuality all bets are off.

It's the responsibility of the education system to teach and prepare children for adulthood, we have schools because we understand that the vast majority of parents don't have the knowledge, time or drive to teach their children everything they need to know.

I don't think that just because a topic makes a parent squeamish or it goes against their religious beliefs or something that it should stop children being taught it.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I have never heard parents demanding to know what is being taught in the physics or chemistry lab, yet for some reason when it comes to sexuality all bets are off.




I don't think most parents would agree that they have no right to know what their children are being taught. Most parents may not know about physics or chemistry, but they know about sex, it's how their children came about remember ?

Yours sounds a very arrogant attitude. Are you a parent yourself ? 

Being treated like an ignorant mushroom by Lefty government bureaucrats is one of the main reasons that private schools are so popular imo.

Anyway what has anti bullying got to do with sex (for the second time) ?


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Anyway what has anti bullying got to do with sex (for the second time) ?




Everything.

It is you SIR that seems to be taking offense to your children being introduced to ideas that do not align with your ideologies, no doubt you are a Christian or Catholic that stills believes the church wasn't implicit in hiding horrendous sexual acts against children by their own.

If you don't like what state schools have to offer, send your children to a private school, it is your choice.

Shame those high heels didn't fit my manly feet, I would have look good in a set of Jimmy Cho's


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2017)

satanoperca said:


> If you don't like what state schools have to offer, send your children to a private school, it is your choice.




As a taxpayer I have every right to question how my money is being spent and I'll thank you not to tell me to go elsewhere. 

At least the NSW government saw some sense and banned this gender bender indoctrination program masquerading as "anti bullying". One small step for commonsense.


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As a taxpayer I have every right to question how my money is being spent and I'll thank you not to tell me to go elsewhere.
> 
> At least the NSW government saw some sense and banned this gender bender indoctrination program masquerading as "anti bullying". One small step for commonsense.




So well said by a straight man.


----------



## Tisme (28 July 2017)

satanoperca said:


> So well said by a straight man.




He's a recovering socialist for crying out loud; don't bite the hand that once fed your Sideshow Bob abstraction narrative.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 July 2017)

Some parents take an active interest in educating their children whilst others don't. That's reality and schools necessarily cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to things (like sex education) which could lead to quite a bit of trouble down the track if not taught at all.

Some parents always amaze me really. Won't take the kids up the mountain (with a sealed road all the way to the top) because it's too cold. Not going to the Show because it's too expensive. Can't even be bothered taking the boys along to an open day at the local fire brigade. Sad but true.


----------



## fiftyeight (28 July 2017)

I am assuming (dangerous to assume I know) that left, right, religious, atheist or other agree that there are people with different sexuality to their own. Just like there are people of different cultures we may or may not agree with.

So bringing it back to bullying, yes sexuality and everything that entails should be discussed (not promoted), just as in the same way as we learn about cultures which are not our own to promote the idea that we are equal not matter our differences and nobody should bullied


----------



## Wysiwyg (28 July 2017)

In life, sex and money are the only things that matter. You can live without one but the desire for both is irrepressible. Puberty is the right age to learn about reproduction but participation should be discouraged until independence (free from parental control).

Disagree about gender 'conditioning' comment in the video. Physiological gender is actual, mentally derived gender is choice.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Most parents may not know about physics or chemistry, but they know about sex, it's how their children came about remember ?




And some of them are only parents because they missed the lesson on safe sex and birth control.

Also, having enough knowledge to breed, doesn't mean you have enough knowledge to educate your children about the different forms of human sexuality, or that you are willing to pass this information on.

There is a practical reason for teaching this, in the average school, about 10 children will be LGBT, about 20 of the children will parent LGBT children later in life, 40 of them will be grand parents to LGBT children, 60 of them will have friends or family that come out as gay, and 120 are likely to have a co worker or neighbor that's LGBT.


----------



## Tink (29 July 2017)

imv, public schools need to get back to the basics of reading and writing, rather than all this political correctness.
Good on her for having her say.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/chaos-in-australian-education.25851/

We attended private schools.
Sex education was organised after hours with children and parents.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> And some of them are only parents because they missed the lesson on safe sex and birth control.
> 
> Also, having enough knowledge to breed, doesn't mean you have enough knowledge to educate your children about the different forms of human sexuality, or that you are willing to pass this information on.
> 
> There is a practical reason for teaching this, in the average school, about 10 children will be LGBT, about 20 of the children will parent LGBT children later in life, 40 of them will be grand parents to LGBT children, 60 of them will have friends or family that come out as gay, and 120 are likely to have a co worker or neighbor that's LGBT.




I doubt if its necessary for the kids to manufacture vaginas in class, if what the video says is true.


----------



## Tisme (29 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if its necessary for the kids to manufacture vaginas in class, if what the video says is true.




There are breeds of predators who will take advantage of any assembly of children to satisfy their own moral corruptions. This one appears to be state sanctioned ring of people who get their rocks of filling kids heads with garbage and watching them play with pinky bits and sex toys. 

Not so long ago these people would be hauled before the courts, their names mentioned in the newspaper and gaol time, but today we encourage it. Parents will eventually just be cows that breed children to be handed over to the state for conditioning....males will be culled.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2017)

> But in recent months, Safe Schools has come under sustained attack by critics who claim it promotes "radical gender theory" or believe Ms Ward's history as a *hardline Marxist* is too extreme.




http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/s...founder-roz-ward-removed-20161216-gtctgs.html


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if its necessary for the kids to manufacture vaginas in class, if what the video says is true.



Who knows what the kids were actually asked to do in the class? the lady seems very alarmist and is probably prone to exaggeration.

But either way, I don't think its something to worry about.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Who knows what the kids were actually asked to do in the class?




The parents should know, that's the point.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

Tink said:


> We attended private schools.
> Sex education was organised after hours with children and parents.




Tink, Your organisation isn't a shining example here.

There has been case after case of sexually repressed adults within your organisation sexually molesting children within their care, ad your anti contraception teachings have helped spread aids.

You bang on about schools daring to talk about sexuality, and your PC rants, But yet you are quite about the culture of child molestation and cover up's within your own organisation.

Your organisations culture has a long history of producing sexuality repressed perverts that molest children behind closed doors, Maybe mow you own lawn first.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The parents should know, that's the point.



That lady in the video said all the content is available online, and the school was happy to talk to her.

I am not sure what you expect, do you want teachers to have a meeting with parents about the topics covered in every class?


----------



## fiftyeight (29 July 2017)

Tink said:


> imv, public schools need to get back to the basics of reading and writing, rather than all this political correctness.




Agree with you on this one, and further to the point there should be NO public funding for any religious schools as that is just teaching kids about stuff their parents should teach...like you said


----------



## Tink (29 July 2017)

I have said this before, the unsafe school program, needs to be removed.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That lady in the video said all the content is available online, and the school was happy to talk to her.
> 
> I am not sure what you expect, do you want teachers to have a meeting with parents about the topics covered in every class?




If she is right, what was online didn't cover the actualities of the class. I doubt if the online content specifically mentioned making vaginas or masturbating.

In any case you are missing the point. This is supposed to be about *Safe Schools not sex education*.

People can be bullied for all sorts of reasons not just gender alignment, so why concentrate on the ins and outs (pardon the expression) of just sexuality ?

How about the kids with an intellectual or physical disability, of other races, whose parents aren't as well off as the rest etc ? These sorts of things are much more likely to occur in a cohort than one or two gay, lesbian or transgender children if they are even aware of such things at that age.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In any case you are missing the point. This is supposed to be about *Safe Schools not sex education*.
> 
> People can be bullied for all sorts of reasons not just gender alignment, so why concentrate on the ins and outs (pardon the expression) of just sexuality ?




The website identifies LGBT issues to be a particular focus due to the high rates of reported abuse, these are pretty high numbers.


61 per cent of LGBTI young people report experiencing verbal homophobic abuse

18 per cent report physical homophobic abuse

69 per cent report other types of homophobia, including exclusion and rumours

80 per cent of respondents experienced the reported abuse at school.

http://www.education.vic.gov.au/about/programs/health/Pages/safe-schools-coalition.aspx?Redirect=1





> These sorts of things are much more likely to occur in a cohort than one or two gay, lesbian or transgender children if they are even aware of such things at that age.




Do you have any stats on that.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

Tink said:


> I have said this before, the unsafe school program, needs to be removed.



what is your main problem with it? and how does that problem stack up with the rampant child molestation that has been happening in your catholic schooling system at the hands of those sexually repressed.

Your churches practices have failed children and adult members alike.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2017)

> Do you have any stats on that.




What % of school children are LGBTI ? What % are of different races ? What % with a disability ? How many are obese, too thin, too short , too tall etc. ?

Gender issues a a much smaller problem than other factors.

You can quote 60% of LGBTI being abused, but that is likely to be 60% of a very small number.

And even then, why go into specifics about their sexuality ?. Just tell other kids not to bully anyone for any reason. That covers all the bases.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

There is some pretty sobering suicide statistics for members of the LGBT Community.

• The rate of suicide attempts is 4 times greater for LGB youth and 2 times greater for questioning youth than that of straight youth. 

• Suicide attempts by LGB youth and questioning youth are 4 to 6 times more likely to result in injury, poisoning, or overdose that requires treatment from a doctor or nurse, compared to their straight peers. 

• In a national study, 40% of transgender adults reported having made a suicide attempt. 92% of these individuals reported having attempted suicide before the age of 25. 

*• LGB youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection. *

• Each episode of LGBT victimization, such as physical or verbal harassment or abuse, increases the likelihood of self-harming behavior by 2.5 times on average.


---------------------
I think the bolded text confirms why its important to increase understanding in the community,


----------



## Tink (29 July 2017)

If you want to run your religion, VC, make the school private.


----------



## fiftyeight (29 July 2017)

Tink said:


> If you want to run your religion, VC, make the school private.




???? Why do my tax dollars have to prop up religious schools? 

Religious schools should be 100% privately funded or preferably banned. Religion should be taught out side of the schooling system either at home or by appropriate religious "authority"....... But then I guess how would you indoctrinate young children


----------



## Tink (29 July 2017)

What religion are you talking about?


----------



## fiftyeight (29 July 2017)

All


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2017)

Tink said:


> If you want to run your religion, VC, make the school private.




More deflection tink? Anything to avoid the truth that your organisation failed children, I can see through your smoke and mirrors show tink.


----------



## Tink (30 July 2017)

I would rather look at the people that built this country, not the ones that are trying to destroy it.

I thought you said you wanted the truth.

Christianity is a part of our culture.
No Christianity, no western culture.

I don't agree with your political correctness.

Since it is a taxpayer funded school, I hope they are celebrating all our public holidays.
It is a part of this nation.

This is my view.


----------



## Tisme (30 July 2017)

Tink said:


> I would rather look at the people that built this country, not the ones that are trying to destroy it.
> 
> I thought you said you wanted the truth.
> 
> ...





I'm still trying to figure out who started exploiting human vulnerabilities in getting mass people onside condoning, even promoting once abhorent behaviours? You can't even talk about past taboos, without someone jumping in lecturing about the wrong of that history and throwing in all sorts of spurious and unrelated supporting argument. 

Is otherwise intelligent individuals joining a chorus to sing the anthem of things like the "safe schools" LGBTxyz agenda a Baader- Meinhoff brain fart, obeying a synchronicity worm put their by someone in the past or just a herd mentality in play? Or is it just that people like me who refuse to be part of a herd mentality are a rare breed, forever treading water in a sea of mediocrity.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> Or is it just that people like me who refuse to be part of a herd mentality are a rare breed, forever treading water in a sea of mediocrity.




Yes, you are one in a million. 

This Safe Schools thing is a perfect example of minority  interest groups hijacking an agenda at the expense of the majority.

Other examples are family trusts, negative gearing, corporate tax cuts, superannuation tax discounts, power companies....


----------



## Tisme (30 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, you are one in a million.
> 
> This Safe Schools thing is a perfect example of minority  interest groups hijacking an agenda at the expense of the majority.
> 
> Other examples are family trusts, negative gearing, corporate tax cuts, superannuation tax discounts, power companies....




And here's me thinking there is the few who fight back against the drone, rote conscribed people: e.g.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Just tell other kids not to bully anyone for any reason. That covers all the bases.




Agreed in theory but bullying is pretty entrenched in society at all levels unfortunately and tends to be most concentrated among those making decisions since that's what bullies are naturally attracted to - controlling others.

I'd love to see it stamped out but it won't happen in my lifetime.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 July 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed in theory but bullying is pretty entrenched in society at all levels unfortunately and tends to be most concentrated among those making decisions since that's what bullies are naturally attracted to - controlling others.




Definitely there are corporate psychopaths in many areas of life.

I wonder if they started off as schoolyard bullies that were never corrected. I wonder if they can be corrected at a young age or whether it's just part of their nature. We might need to ask a psychologist about that.


----------



## fiftyeight (30 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> This Safe Schools thing is a perfect example of *minority*  interest groups hijacking an agenda at the expense of the majority.




Not sure about this one. LGBT may be a minority group but recent polls supporting same sex marriage suggest a majority of population support this minority group and education about them.

This same sex marriage thing is a perfect example of minority interest groups hijacking an agenda at the expense of the majority.


----------



## Tisme (30 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What % of school children are LGBTI ? What % are of different races ? What % with a disability ? How many are obese, too thin, too short , too tall etc. ?
> 
> Gender issues a a much smaller problem than other factors.
> 
> ...





Abuse 1 gentle boy in a school and you are already at 33.33% threshold. Do you remember me putting the actual "attempted" & achieved suicide numbers versus percentage on the old board and our resident arguer going silent on it after that.


----------



## Tisme (30 July 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed in theory but bullying is pretty entrenched in society at all levels unfortunately and tends to be most concentrated among those making decisions since that's what bullies are naturally attracted to - controlling others.
> 
> I'd love to see it stamped out but it won't happen in my lifetime.




Every kid gets bullied at school in one aspect or another. When they really went to town back in the pre sissy days it was grist for the mill to call any male victim a "fag" or "homo". These days some damaged teacher or guidance councillor on lunch duty with a hand counter, probably clicks maniacally adding each kid on the receiving end of a name callout as homos and then grooms them into readiness at the onset of puberty.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 July 2017)

As per our Code of Conduct, it is unacceptable and may lead to dismissal if queers are abused. The party line is inclusion of all human beings regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference. 'Bullying' is an online course completed by all personnel outlining what is not acceptable in the company. This surely leads to a better world since one third of most peoples lives are in the workplace and a place where most interact.

While on the subject of workplace, they are devising their own system of things. Rules, regulations, prosecutions and verdicts are now 'the way we do business'. The accused legal representative may be a Union Rep. if the accused are in a Union.


----------



## Value Collector (31 July 2017)

Tink said:


> I would rather look at the people that built this country, not the ones that are trying to destroy it.




Do you think none of them were Gay?

Yet again Think, you are focussing on the spreading of your religion at the expense of the children who have suffered abuse (strange you refuse to comment on that), and at the expense people who are born of different sexualities.

In your perfect world Gays would just stay in the closet, people would stay in unhappy marriages and never divorce, there would be insufficient sex education but that would be covered up by babies being forcible adopted out by teenage mums.

Your "good ole days", had a lot of human suffering hidden in behind closed doors.


----------



## Tink (1 August 2017)

If you want to eliminate our traditions/public holidays out of our public schools, then make them private.

As I mentioned, the ABC ran shows on pedophiles, are you going to mention them too?
And why we should be understanding them.

There are males and females - we have two sexes.

Teaching children lies and pumping them with medication is not what schools should be doing.

Get back to the basics of maths, reading, writing.

As I said, information nights were set up for us out of school hours with children and parents.
They should do the same in the public system.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2017)

Removing children from their parents, is seen as wrong, sometimes it is the only way.IMO

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/welfare-used-on-sex-with-kids-ng-b88552545z

The cashless society, is on its way and not before time.


----------



## basilio (1 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Removing children from their parents, is seen as wrong, sometimes it is the only way.IMO
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/welfare-used-on-sex-with-kids-ng-b88552545z
> 
> The cashless society, is on its way and not before time.




Thats an interesting perspective. So can we assume that in a cashless society "someone" can monitor all peoples purchases to make such they arn't used for anti social purposes ? Is that the intention to build a better, purer society?
So would that include excessive gambling ? Spending  money on escorts when you are married, partnered or committed ? Doing any illegal drugs ? Buying your kids/your partner/yourself the wrong stuff ??

Will we extend this cashless society to all pension receivers ? Old Age?  Disability ? Single parents ? Will they all have to justify the last dollar they spend ? Who to ?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Thats an interesting perspective. So can we assume that in a cashless society "someone" can monitor all peoples purchases to make such they arn't used for anti social purposes ? Is that the intention to build a better, purer society?




It's a bit contradictory from a Liberal government that believes in 'individual responsibility', but the fact is that a lot of welfare recipients smoke, drink, gamble or inject their welfare payments and don't look after their kids if they have them.

Of course people will say that cashless welfare stigmatises welfare recipients, but no government measures are all completely pure.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a bit contradictory from a Liberal government that believes in 'individual responsibility'




These libs are sellouts. Either they believe in it for everyone, or they don't believe in it at all.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

Tink said:


> If you want to eliminate our traditions/public holidays out of our public schools, then make them private.
> 
> .




I don't want to eliminate any of those things, I just want to avoid teaching religions as if they were fact. I am happy for children to be taught about your religion as part of a myths and legends type program, just like we learned about the greek legends etc in school.



> There are males and females - we have two sexes.




Agreed, but you "gender" doesn't necessarily match your biological "Sex"

and there and there are multiple sexualities.

Sex is whats between your legs.
Gender is what you go to bed as.
Sexuality is about who you go to bed with.



> Get back to the basics of maths, reading, writing.




So no religion, cool. but yeah there is plenty of other things kids need, science, history, physical education and health (which includes sexual education)


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

> So no religion, cool. but yeah there is plenty of other things kids need, science, history, physical education and health (which includes sexual education)




I think the concern is that some of the  "other things" are interfering with teaching of the skills that children need to actually get a job in the real world.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> "other things" are interfering with teaching of the skills that children need to actually get a job in the real world.




Really? I think being a fit and healthy, mentally well adjusted person with social skills is one of the most important things when applying for a job, not to mention that avoiding teenage pregnancy and STD's gives people a huge leg up when it comes to higher education.

So yeah I think there is a real place in schools for health education including sex education, I mean it's not like to much of the work week is actually used on these topics.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Really? I think being a fit and healthy, mentally well adjusted person with social skills is one of the most important things when applying for a job,




Even if they can't read, write or add up.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Even if they can't read, write or add up.



Do you really think it's a choice? ofcourse you can do both. 

Any way, who says the only way to learn reading and writing is in dedicated "reading and writing classes", reading and writing skills can be built up through all sorts of study.

Eg, reading course material in a health class is still improving reading skills.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

*Wake-up call: Australian students fall behind Kazakhstan in maths and science ra**nkings

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ths-and-science-rankings-20161129-gszvt1.html*


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> *Wake-up call: Australian students fall behind Kazakhstan in maths and science ra**nkings
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ths-and-science-rankings-20161129-gszvt1.html*




Insert Borat meme.

Great success.  I like.


----------



## fiftyeight (1 August 2017)

Tink said:


> Get back to the basics of maths, reading, writing.




Good then we do not need ANY religious schools?


----------



## basilio (1 August 2017)

This conversation about "getting back to basics" in education, "reading, 'riting and 'rithetric" and "being able to get a job" as somehow the pride and centerpoint of education is so, so lame.  The fact that many people seem to espouse these concepts in such a simplistic way is probably a poor reflection on our teaching and understanding what "an education" could/should be.

Bit of reality. *Education has always had a basic social engineering component in its make up.* The education system wherever and whatever it comprised was about transmitting intended social mores  to a new generation. Ancient Rome, Medieval England, Victorian England, Soviet Russia, 20th Century Australia everywhere the concept of what we want our next generation to look like was a bedrock of education.

*It is never value neutral.*  In that sense the question to ask is "What social mores do we want our children to grow up with?" Will they be co-operative or fiercely individual and competitive ? Will they respect all people and cultures or believe there is "one true faith" and anyone else is very much second best. Will they enjoy learning about new things and the world for its own sake or will they see learning as focused mostly on very specific outcomes ie getting a job ?

*Basic skills. *I'll sum up a teaching philosphy I used. " Learning how to ask a question. Learning where to look for the answers. Learning how to smell the BS". Of course one can learn how to read. But how do we learn whether what you read is worthwhile,  honest and useful?  We can learn how to write as well. But again "How are we going to use this skill?" Making Advertising ads for houses? Constructing creative lagal frameworks for totally dodgy busineses? Making up lies to advance evil causes? Ditto Maths. And this doesn't even touch the fact that Science, Languages, History, Geography, Health Education, Creative Arts and a score of other subjects offer a richness to life that is essential if we are developing a whole new person.

*Back to the topic. *Once upon a time gays were deranged, criminal or depraved. Just look at the laws that existed barely one generation ago.  Hetrosexual sex was circumscribed with a very particular ideology, largely religious. The concept that people could have sexual relations outside a male/female sanctified wedding was very bolshy.
Do we still think these precepts are "right" ? How do we want our children to behave towards friends and themselves if they don't fit these structures? What type of "social engineering" do we want to see in schools ?


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> *Wake-up call: Australian students fall behind Kazakhstan in maths and science ra**nkings
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ths-and-science-rankings-20161129-gszvt1.html*




I have three points on this topic.

1, Just because it has "Stan" on the end of its name, doesn't mean its a backward low grade country that we should be ashamed to be beaten by. it's actually a progressive nation with mandatory schooling, making lots of investments into science and technology.

2, Its quite a small country, with a spread out population, one of the most disperse population in the world, I wouldn't be surprised if the study focussed only on students from its capital, ignoring those in rural tribal areas, this probably skews the results higher.

3, Developing nations in general generally have more attentive students, e.g. the Average Aussie or American child sees school as a chore, the developing nations see it as a new privilege. So as other nations catch up in wealth terms, it will be harder for western nations to stay at the top of the lists.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

basilio said:


> What type of "social engineering" do we want to see in schools




I can't recall any 'social engineering' when I was at school, although we did 'social studies', which I can't remember much of anyway.

Lets face it , the world is moving fast technology wise and it takes enough time for kids to keep up with that instead of indoctrinating them to be your version of model citizens whatever that might be. 

Parents have a responsibility to guide their children's social development, schools can't do everything. I agree that critical reading and comprehension is vital to sort out the fake news from the real thing.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I have three points on this topic.




Apologies to Khazkhstan, but we are falling behind others as well, eg 18th to 28 th in year 4 maths and similar results in other STEM areas.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Apologies to Khazkhstan, but we are falling behind others as well, eg 18th to 28 th in year 4 maths and similar results in other STEM areas.



A better measure would be how we rate against ourselves, e.g., are getting worse, are are we just progressing more slowly than others.

But either way, as I said, having a whole host of nations that have a population hungry for improvement will make it harder to stay near the top, unless our young get equally hungry.



> Its quite a small country, with a spread out population




when I said this I meant small population, the land mass is huge.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A better measure would be how we rate against ourselves, e.g., are getting worse, are are we just progressing more slowly than others.




That's apparently why we have NAPLAN, but the teachers don't like it because it reveals their deficiencies.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I can't recall any 'social engineering' when I was at school, .





So the girls didn't get shuffled off to Home economics class, while the boys did metal work or wood work?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So the girls didn't get shuffled off to Home economics class, while the boys did metal work or wood work?




I believe boys and girls could do either woodwork/metalwork or H.E., it so happened that boys usually chose the woodwork and girls chose the Home Economics.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I believe boys and girls could do either woodwork/metalwork or H.E., it so happened that boys usually chose the woodwork and girls chose the Home Economics.



When my Mum was in school Home economics was a mandatory thing for girls and only girls. So I guess yes, social engineering has always been around.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> When my Mum was in school Home economics was a mandatory thing for girls and only girls. So I guess yes, social engineering has always been around.




 See, even back then boys missed out on all the good classes.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 August 2017)

There is some trial and error going on with the females in male suited and historically male jobs. Dirty, hot, smelly, physically demanding work is something challenging for awhile but the novelty wears off and easier positions are sought. Few are "fair dinkum" and go on with it.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> There is some trial and error going on with the females in male suited and historically male jobs. Dirty, hot, smelly, physically demanding work is something challenging for awhile but the novelty wears off and easier positions are sought. Few are "fair dinkum" and go on with it.




 It's more about proving a point about so called equality than any desire to do the work.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's more about proving a point about so called equality than any desire to do the work.



From the top (and I would loike to know where the ideology comes from) the percentage of female to male has to move higher. If you want some facts on percentage I can dig up the e-mail quoting the numbers. It is not about the right person for the job so much theses days but diversity and inclusion. Suitability, aptitude, fair dinkum no longer a prerequisite. It's laughable.


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's more about proving a point about so called equality than any desire to do the work.



I don't agree, a lot of it is just about earning money, women aren't driving mining equipment in the pilbra to prove a point any more than a guy is, they want money.

Also, do you think that more women are becoming Doctors now rather than limiting themselves to being Nurces because they are simply trying to prove a point? 

Every where I go now I see young women taking on roles that were never really open to them before, I love it.

For years society kept half of the talent on the sidelines, imagine what we can achieve when we use the whole team.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also, do you think that more women are becoming Doctors now rather than limiting themselves to being Nurces because they are simply trying to prove a point?




No argument there, but medicine is an intellectual pursuit not one that requires physical strength like lumberjacks or whatever so it's not a 'dirty job' as such. I've nothing against women doing whatever they want and are capable of doing, but as always there are a few who want to promote an 'equality' agenda and employers are taking them not necessarily on merit but because either they have jumped on the equality bandwagon or are afraid of repercussions from the feminist or migrant mafia if they don't play ball.

What do you think about women in combat positions in the Armed Forces ?


----------



## qldfrog (2 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> For years society kept half of the talent on the sidelines, imagine what we can achieve when we use the whole team.



Unemployment doubling, house price doubling and salary/morgage slave doubling.More profit for childcares, Can not wait;
The ATO either
Discrimination based on sex in office work in mining companies (and others) to rebalance the figures irrespective of talent/skills, reduced BHP dividends, where do I stop? The sky is the limit but hey why should we spoil a good story.This is not a black and white story...can I still say that?


----------



## basilio (2 August 2017)

More thoughts about Social engineering. Prime consideration is creating a particular view of the world that conforms to certain expectations.
The latest blockbuster Dunkirk offers an example of social engineering which many people would not appreciate until it's pointed out.

* Why the lack of Indian and African faces in Dunkirk matters *
Sunny Singh
The blockbuster purports to be a historical portrayal, but in fact it’s a whitewash. And these decisions help corrode societal attitudes

• Sunny Singh is a British-based writer. Her latest novel is Hotel Arcadia



‘The French army deployed at Dunkirk included soldiers from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and other colonies, and in substantial numbers. But we don’t see them.’ Photograph: Bros/Kobal/REX/Shutterstock

*Shares*
28k
 
* Comments*
 468 
Tuesday 1 August 2017 17.00 AEST   Last modified on Tuesday 1 August 2017 21.19 AEST

What a surprise that Nigel Farage has endorsed the new fantasy-disguised-as-historical war film, Dunkirk. Christopher Nolan’s movie is an inadvertently timely, thinly veiled Brexiteer fantasy in which plucky Britons heroically retreat from the dangerous shores of Europe. Most importantly, it pushes the narrative that it was Britain as it exists today – and not the one with a global empire – that stood alone against the “European peril”.

To do so, it erases the Royal Indian Army Services Corp companies, which were not only on the beach, but tasked with transporting supplies over terrain that was inaccessible for the British Expeditionary Force’s motorised transport companies. It also ignores the fact that by 1938, lascars – mostly from South Asia and East Africa – counted for one of four crewmen on British merchant vessels, and thus participated in large numbers in the evacuation.

But Nolan’s erasures are not limited to the British. The French army deployed at Dunkirk included soldiers from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and other colonies, and in substantial numbers. Some non-white faces are visible in one crowd scene, but that’s it. The film forgets the racialised pecking order that determined life and death for both British and French colonial troops at Dunkirk and after it.

This is important, firstly, because it is a matter of factual accuracy in what purports to be an historical portrayal – and also because it was the colonial troops who were crucial in averting absolute catastrophe for the allies. It is also important because, more than history books and school lessons, popular culture shapes and informs our imagination not only of the past, but of our present and future.

The stories that we share among ourselves give us the vision of our individual and collective identities. When those stories consistently – and in a big budget, well-researched production like Dunkirk, one must assume, purposefully – erase the presence of those who are still considered “other” and less-than-equal, these narratives also decide who is seen as “us” as opposed to “them”. Does this removal of those deemed “foreign” and “other” from narratives of the past express a discomfort with the same people in the present? More chillingly, does it also contain a wish to excise the same people from a utopian, national future?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-african-dunkirk-history-whitewash-attitudes


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What do you think about women in combat positions in the Armed Forces ?




Fine with it. If a chopper was coming to extract me, would I care about the gender of the pilot or the door gunner, of course not, when a sapper goes forward to clear a land mine or IED would I care about the gender, of course not, I really can't think of a role that couldn't be filled by women.



Female sniper unit.



This Female sniper nearly dies, laughs it off.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I believe boys and girls could do either woodwork/metalwork or H.E., it so happened that boys usually chose the woodwork and girls chose the Home Economics.



When I was at school cooking, sewing, metalwork and woodwork were all compulsory subjects regardless of gender.

There's no reason why boys can't thread needles or use a sewing machine and there's no reason why girls can't use a lathe or welder indeed there was no choice given.

Normal public high school in Tas. Is it not the same in other states?


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Unemployment doubling,




Since when?

Looks like historical lows to me.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> When I was at school cooking, sewing, metalwork and woodwork were all compulsory subjects regardless of gender.
> 
> There's no reason why boys can't thread needles or use a sewing machine and there's no reason why girls can't use a lathe or welder indeed there was no choice given.
> 
> Normal public high school in Tas. Is it not the same in other states?




What you say may be the go now, I was talking 50 years ago.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 August 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> When I was at school cooking, sewing, metalwork and woodwork were all compulsory subjects regardless of gender.
> 
> There's no reason why boys can't thread needles or use a sewing machine and there's no reason why girls can't use a lathe or welder indeed there was no choice given.
> 
> Normal public high school in Tas. Is it not the same in other states?



Yes in Qld. we swapped Home Ec. with the girls for Wood and Metal work for a short time. Our class learned how to use a recipe and baked an apple crumble pie. Thanks for reminding us how well organised and real-life-educational public schools were. Certainly prepared me for life after parental control but I would have preferred financial education as compulsory learning too.


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Normal public high school in Tas. Is it not the same in other states?




That was the Norm in the 90's when I went through High school, but the 50's were different.

However the claim was that "Social engineering" in the education system (and society), was a new development. I was just pointing out that gender based "Social engineering" has been the norm for along time, and is not a new thing.

it's not random chance that in prior generations, Females were nurses while doctors were mostly Male, Females were pressured to stay at home while husbands worked, it was "engineered that way.

Australia had 25 Male prime ministers before we had a female one, now I guess that could be random chance, but I doubt it, without the coin of the toss being rigged, its very hard to get 25 heads in a row.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I really can't think of a role that couldn't be filled by women.




How about if you had a leg blown off by a mine and you only had one skinny female to carry you 20 km to the nearest aid station ?


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How about if you had a leg blown off by a mine and you only had one skinny female to carry you 20 km to the nearest aid station ?




Change that to "One Skinny Male" and you are in the same place.

At the end of the day, all front line troops will be physically fit, and in that kind of Evacuation there are all sorts of jobs on the go, and I wouldn't care about the gender of 

If you were in that situation would care if the person was female that was,

Applying combat first aid 
On the radio calling in help
Returning fire and providing security to the people assisting you
Pilot or door gunner on the chopper thats coming to lift you out
part of the medic team on the chopper who will stabilise you in flight


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2017)

Well, it seems that women aren't too keen on the combat roles.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-25/ban-lifted-but-few-women-apply-for-combat-roles/4650772

Which seems to indicate that the "women in combat" campaign was a feminist push for superficial "equality" rather than actual suitability for the role.


----------



## qldfrog (2 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Since when?
> 
> Looks like historical lows to me.



Tiime to start having a critical view of stats, plenty of sites can give you an apple for apple comparison, current rate of unemployment >10% if comparing with figures from post war/great depression
even without going to that period:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ment-different-stories-from-the-jobs-numbers/
and for OZ
http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll/unemployment/underemployment-estimates


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it seems that women aren't too keen on the combat roles.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-25/ban-lifted-but-few-women-apply-for-combat-roles/4650772
> 
> Which seems to indicate that the "women in combat" campaign was a feminist push for superficial "equality" rather than actual suitability for the role.



You wouldn't expect the 8000 existing women in defence just to abandon their established career paths in their current jobs and head over to the infantry where they would start from scratch, nor would you expect a sudden rush of female recruits wanting to be the first to trail blaze a path.

These things take time, however at my reserve unit where I currently serve, we have a female, she is a police officer in civilian life and is proving a pretty solid member of our team.


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Tiime to start having a critical view of stats, plenty of sites can give you an apple for apple comparison, current rate of unemployment >10% if comparing with figures from post war/great depression
> even without going to that period:
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ment-different-stories-from-the-jobs-numbers/
> and for OZ
> http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll/unemployment/underemployment-estimates



So you think adding women to the labour market creates unemployment???

Please explain how that works, 

If anything is putting pressure on employment levels it's mechanisation, because all things being equal, adding more available labour increase the number of products and services that can be produced, and raises living standards.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> These things take time, however at my reserve unit where I currently serve, we have a female, she is a police officer in civilian life and is proving a pretty solid member of our team.




Good to hear it, I hope it works out.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> all things being equal, adding more available labour increase the number of products and services that can be produced, and raises living standards.



Agreed assuming all things are indeed equal.

Problem is there's a lot of "leakage" of that productive opportunity these days with the production taking place offshore and, unfairly to Australian business, generally in low wage countries.


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If anything is putting pressure on employment levels it's mechanisation, because all things being equal, adding more available labour increase the number of products and services that can be produced, and raises living standards.



No doubt about mecanisation [and now computer power/AI], but this is also the oft quoted rhetoric  used by the pro immigration camp in Europe with a good 40y of matching experience and abysmal "success"; As for raising living standards, tell that to any people struggling to pay a mortgage on inflated house price, yet GDP is booming indeed..
There are figures, there is always a twist and there is the real world.
Women do not have the choice to go to work, they have to now due to economic constraints which were not there in the 1950's, feel free to see that as a plus and look how happy the ladies commuters are satisfying their newly found freedom of slaving away for the next corporation/department.
Anyway, always a pleasure to push the contrarian buttons with you VC


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you think adding women to the labour market creates unemployment???



it does when there are no jobs around, and so create a deflation/lowering for all, save as immigration.
When needed aka war effort, more contributors are a benefits, when unneeded, the less the better


----------



## Tisme (3 August 2017)

basilio said:


> More thoughts about Social engineering. Prime consideration is creating a particular view of the world that conforms to certain expectations.
> The latest blockbuster Dunkirk offers an example of social engineering which many people would not appreciate until it's pointed out.
> 
> * Why the lack of Indian and African faces in Dunkirk matters *
> ...





I fail to understand why it's important to write the nonsense in the article you have posted. The setting is the 1930's and the troops were seconded to the primary protagonists. That is how it was and how it will always be at that time.

There seems to be a constant attempt to make everyone apologise for the way things were several lifetimes ago. This writer should heed his/her advice about "popular culture shapes and informs our imagination not only of the past, but of our present and future" and keep things in context, preserving the  past...that and grow up instead of persistently knocking what's been as if it was an evil being.


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I fail to understand why it's important to write the nonsense in the article you have posted. The setting is the 1930's and the troops were seconded to the primary protagonists. That is how it was and how it will always be at that time.
> 
> There seems to be a constant attempt to make everyone apologise for the way things were several lifetimes ago. This writer should heed his/her advice about "popular culture shapes and informs our imagination not only of the past, but of our present and future" and keep things in context, preserving the  past...that and grow up instead of persistently knocking what's been as if it was an evil being.



I know it is not politically correct but when the war started , you had very few colonial troops in Europe and you would not have seem many[ if any ] non white face in Dunkerque.


----------



## Tisme (3 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> I know it is not politically correct but when the war started , you had very few colonial troops in Europe and you would not have seem many[ if any ] non white face in Dunkerque.





We were taught there was about 100k plus soldiers from Algiers and other French empire countries


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> We were taught there was about 100k plus soldiers from Algiers and other French empire countries




What happened to those Algerians and French at Dunkirk?

Saw the movie... pretty well made. Amazing how you could turn a military disaster into a kind of victory. I guess it is a victory seeing how if those troops weren't brought back to fight another day... yikes.


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> I know it is not politically correct but when the war started , you had very few colonial troops in Europe and you would not have seem many[ if any ] non white face in Dunkerque.




Here is a news reel of the King and queen inspecting Indian troops Early in the war.




I found this news reel of Indian troops in France prior to the Dunkirk evac.


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> What happened to those Algerians and French at Dunkirk?
> 
> Saw the movie... pretty well made. Amazing how you could turn a military disaster into a kind of victory. I guess it is a victory seeing how if those troops weren't brought back to fight another day... yikes.





Let's just say that 40k British troops were left behind and transported by the Germany to worker camps. There are plenty of pictures showing the skin colours of the various soldiers marching form train stations to the shore, including French colonials.


----------



## qldfrog (4 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> We were taught there was about 100k plus soldiers from Algiers and other French empire countries



In the north of France, I have serious doubts.But hey I could be wrong;
There were huge amount of colonial France soldiers involved no doubt there, but they were mostly not affected in the north of France;
a reminder as well as Algeria was a french department with millions of french citizen living there, not just a colony same as south africa


----------



## qldfrog (4 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Here is a news reel of the King and queen inspecting Indian troops Early in the war.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




First newsreels from UK:  midlands
second unknown, anyway I am sure you know better ..


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> First newsreels from UK:  midlands
> second unknown, anyway I am sure you know better ..





Of course he does, but facts never get in the way of the argument. Who could have missed the 1k man Force K6 Royal Indian Army Service Corps who were Punjabi and Pashtun muslims handling mules and horse among the 400k armed forces ensemble. One of the depleted companies got captured and imprisioned.


----------



## qldfrog (4 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Of course he does, but facts never get in the way of the argument. Who could have missed the 1k man Force K6 Royal Indian Army Service Corps who were Punjabi and Pashtun muslims handling mules and horse among the 400k armed forces ensemble. One of the depleted companies got captured and imprisioned.



Another 50 year and any movie about WW2 will have as many women as men fighting, a good 20% of transgenders , at least 50% of the women/men being gay; all german baddies will be white, christian and male, all freedom fighter coloured (any but white) and muslim;
No one ever smoking/drinking and all women wearing trousers while nazi commanders will be displayed as Trump caricatures taken from the 2017 TV selected newsreels
I so look for the future


----------



## Value Collector (4 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> First newsreels from UK:  midlands
> second unknown, anyway I am sure you know better ..



What is your point, you said you doubted there was any Indian forces in the area at the early stages of the war, the news reels show there was.


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Another 50 year and any movie about WW2 will have as many women as men fighting, a good 20% of transgenders , at least 50% of the women/men being gay; all german baddies will be white, christian and male, all freedom fighter coloured (any but white) and muslim;
> No one ever smoking/drinking and all women wearing trousers while nazi commanders will be displayed as Trump caricatures taken from the 2017 TV selected newsreels
> I so look for the future




In 50 years time there won't be any French, English or even franglais spoken in a re-enactment. The whole cast will be Chinese and with a forward to the film stating they invented Dunkirk 2000 years before the English Channel was dug by their Han descendants using gelignite.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> In 50 years time there won't be any French, English or even franglais spoken in a re-enactment. The whole cast will be Chinese and with a forward to the film stating they invented Dunkirk 2000 years before the English Channel was dug by their Han descendants using gelignite.




No, there's no need to invent and retell Dunkirk. The Chinese already have their own Dunkirk moment about 1800 years ago, in China.

It was during the Three Kingdoms period, the waning years of the Han empire. T'sao T'sao - who controls the imperial house - marches the "Han" army South/West; chasing Liu Pei and his little colony by the YangTze [or one of the major rivers]. 

Liu Pei and his commanders have to abandon the city, but, according the popular myth, the civilian so loved him they want to follow him. So they marched, had a few minor skirmishes... got to the river and there were no boat. 

If Liu Pei and his army were captured, the second Kingdom to the East will also fall to T'sao T'sao. But lucky for the movie series, Zhuge Liang managed to bring enough ships, convinced the Eastern kingdom of Sun for a few ships and they got away just in time. 

From this "Dunkirk" moment, the two minor kingdoms managed to form an alliance, defeat T'sao T'sao's naval assault a few years later at Red Cliff... ending his own personal command to "unite" the empire. Dragging the wars on for another generation when the sons of a little known general to T'sao T'sao usurped the throne from T'sao's Son, then work on wiping out the other two kingdoms soon after.

But they might re-tell the story of Admiral Zheng during the Ming era... laying historical claim to that 9-dash lines and them strings of pearl to Africa. The South China seas almost done; they're working on Sri Lanka's port; doing deals in Pakistan.


----------



## basilio (4 August 2017)

The article I posted on how "Dunkirk" deliberately overlooked almost all non European involvement in the evacuation of the BEF is quite accurate. The Indian Service Corps was a significant part of supporting the retreat. Moreover,  the Indian armed forces were an essential part of the Allied war effort after Dunkirk when the British Army was being reconstructed as a result of the losses suffered.

In the same way the support of the African units was an important part of the whole WW2 effort. The question raised in article posted is *"Why are these facets of WW2 ignored ?" *Perhaps the uncomfortable reason is that in 2017 Europe is trying to stem millions of economic refugees from Africa and doesn't want to see them as worthy of any consideration?

Again I suggest it comes back to who is telling the story and the picture they want to create.

*What’s Fact and What’s Fiction in Dunkirk*
*John Broich*

*.. (Much excellent information in the body of this story. Well worth a read)*

*What’s missing from the film that a historian might add?*

*In the film, we see at least one French soldier who might be African. In fact, soldiers from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and elsewhere were key to delaying the German attack. Other African soldiers made it to England and helped form the nucleus of the Free French forces that soon took the fight to the Axis.*

*Soldiers from West and North Africa were key to delaying the German attack.*
*There were also four companies of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps on those beaches. Observers said they were particularly cool under fire and well-organized during the retreat. They weren’t large in number, maybe a few hundred among hundreds of thousands, but their appearance in the film would have provided a good reminder of how utterly central the role of the Indian Army was in the war. Their service meant the difference between victory and defeat. In fact, while Britain and other allies were licking their wounds after Dunkirk, the Indian Army picked up the slack in North Africa and the Middle East.*

*John Broich is an associate professor of history at Case Western Reserve University and the author of London: Water and the Making of the Modern City and the forthcoming Squadron: Ending the African Slave Trade.*

*http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/07/20/what_s_fact_and_what_s_fiction_in_dunkirk.html*


----------



## basilio (4 August 2017)

Just for interest on the question of what happened at Dunkirk.
the French and British were not on teh same page as far as the evacuation at Dunkirk. Worth checking out this historical account.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...g fixed bayonets, rifle fire and oars&f=false


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> No, there's no need to invent and retell Dunkirk. The Chinese already have their own Dunkirk moment about 1800 years ago, in China.
> 
> .




Well there you go the Chinese invented everything, including conflict


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

basilio said:


> The Indian Service Corps was a significant part of supporting the retreat.




You wanna back that up with the war records and fact?


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Well there you go the Chinese invented everything, including conflict




No they didn't invent conflict. They've always been peaceful... all those provinces and 100+ ethnic minorities thought to sacrifice their own inferior culture for the greater Han majority to rule over the land of their ancestors.

I guess they're also first in that white-washing of history too 

Seriously, just expanding your horizon McGee... what with being a historian and all.

I mean we're all ethno-centric, thinking our own culture are first and all that. Reminds me of that Luc Besson's Joan of Arch movie... the poster had a tag line that goes something like: 800 years ago, history's first woman warrior defeated the English barbarians.

There's Mulan during the Tang; there's the two Trinh Sisters defeating the Han imperial forces.


----------



## basilio (4 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> You wanna back that up with the war records and fact?




Check the reference I have already provided.


----------



## basilio (4 August 2017)

SUBSCRIBE NOW 






	

		
			
		

		
	
 43°c





	

		
			
		

		
	
 12:29 Dhuhr
Abu Dhabi, UAEFriday 4 August 2017

*Four Indian companies were present at Dunkirk*


Although not visible in Christopher Nolan's new film, Indians were on the beach and on the rescue ships





*The National staff *
July 29, 2017

_Updated: July 29, 2017 07:21 PM_




Soldiers of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps on parade at their camp in the north of England, on September 2, 1940. Fox Photos / Hulton Archive / Getty Images
Indian troops were involved in the Second World War right from the beginning.

Though fully mechanised by 1939, when the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) went to France, it became clear that the British army still needed pack animals for transport.

Four Indian Animal Transport companies – 2,500 mules and their handlers – of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps arrived in France from Bombay (now Mumbai) in December 1939 and were given the name Force K-6.

Three companies of Force K-6 were evacuated to safety from Dunkirk, but had to leave their pack mules behind, giving them away to local people in France. But the fourth company was captured by the Germans. Most of the men died in Nazi prisoner of war camps.

Historians record that during the chaos of the retreat, the Indian forces showed determination and discipline. Troop commander Jemadar Maula Dad Khan, was awarded the Indian Distinguished Service Medal for “magnificent courage, coolness and decision” when his men came under fire from both air and ground on the approach to Dunkirk in May 1940.


Read more: Debate kicks off over lack of Indian faces in Hollywood war epic 'Dunkirk'


His citation reads: “When his troop was shelled from the ground and bombed from the air by the enemy, he promptly reorganised his men and animals, got them off the road and under cover under extremely difficult conditions. It was due to this initiative and the confidence he inspired that it was possible to extricate his troop without loss in men or animals.”

Force K-6 remained in Britain for a time and in 1944 returned to India to join the Burma campaign. By then the Indian army had expanded to nearly 2.5 million men – the largest volunteer force in history.

Indian sailors – known as lascars – on merchant ships and other non-military vessels also took part in the Dunkirk evacuation, rescuing stranded soldiers.

About 5 million servicemen from the Commonwealth served with the forces of the British empire during the Second World War. Of those, almost half were from south Asia.

Despite the film’s omissions, and despite not being dubbed into any Indian language, Dunkirk took in US$2.4m (Dh8.8m) on its first weekend, making it the biggest opening of an English-language film in India.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/asia/four-indian-companies-were-present-at-dunkirk-1.615207

And for a wider perspective..
https://www.thenational.ae/world/as...-faces-in-hollywood-war-epic-dunkirk-1.615115

http://www.open.ac.uk/researchproje...attle-and-evacuation-dunkirk-operation-dynamo


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2017)

basilio said:


> SUBSCRIBE NOW
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Is this Nolan's way of getting back at the Yanks (or following its example?) for their U-571 where it was the yank that captured Enigma? 

Where's Mel Gibson and his pom-bashing movies?


----------



## basilio (4 August 2017)

History is always interesting..  Who creates it, who writes it up, who decides what's important.
That is Social Engineering.  Helping to create the picture of world *as we want to see it.*
The conversation about the movie Dunkirk both here and and around the world throws light on the role of media in constructing history as some would like to remember.  Dunkirk is  a particularly excellent movie and well regarded because it seems honest and accurate. Clearly there are a thousand other war movies which are bascially fluff and propoaganda.

In that context it would have been good value to have noted the presence of more than just English and French soldiers at Dunkirk. I found another story on how the Indian presence at Dunkirk was whitewashed out of history.

* Ashdown tells how father stood by Indian troops *

*Shares*
194

Patrick Wintour, chief political correspondent

Thursday 9 November 2000 10.22 AEDT

Sir Paddy Ashdown revealed yesterday how his father was brought before a court martial for refusing to comply with an order to abandon Indian troops under his command during the Dunkirk retreat.
The order had been "idiotic and disgraceful", said Sir Paddy, who was a Royal Marine captain before he was leader of the Liberal Democrats. His father, who ended the war a colonel, was in the Royal Indian Army Service Corps, based in the Punjab. In 1939 he took a platoon of Indian soldiers and their troop of mules as one of four mule trains to join the British Expeditionary Force in France.

During the BEF's 100-mile retreat in June 1940, the order went out from a senior British officer to set loose the mules and the Indians; the British officers were ordered to make their way to Dunkirk for evacuation, since officers were in short supply.

Sir Paddy's father, John, disobeyed, turning loose the mules but marching his platoon to Dunkirk without loss. There he secured a berth for them all on the last ship out before the jetty was bombed. Back in England, he was reunited with his wife, Lois, but court martialled for disobeying an order. The court martial was subsequently thrown out, according to Sir Paddy.
*
The Ministry of Defence, when first approached about the story by the Southall-based TV company Zee TV, said its archive department had after two days been unable to find any record of Indian troops at Dunkirk; it also reported it had lost the records of Indian Army court martials. Zee TV located a record of the Indian troops' presence in hours at the Imperial War Museum. The ministry then asserted that the command to cut loose the Indians and mules, made by a single officer, did not amount to an official order. 

Sir Paddy said last night: "It may seem that the order was a racist one in the context of our time, but my father thought simply that these were his men, he was responsible for them, and he must bring them back. That was the beginning and the end of it."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/nov/08/patrickwintour*

Topics


----------



## SirRumpole (4 August 2017)

Speaking of China...

Chinese chatbots run amok.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-...ted-after-questioning-communist-party/8773766


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2017)

basilio said:


> SUBSCRIBE NOW
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I already posted there were only 1k Indian troops (4 companies) compared to the 400k fighting men. If you prorated on that basis you might see an Indian freckle. This is a nonsense and more or less an insult to the families of the majority who were white men of the British army.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Thats an interesting perspective. So can we assume that in a cashless society "someone" can monitor all peoples purchases to make such they arn't used for anti social purposes ? Is that the intention to build a better, purer society?
> So would that include excessive gambling ? Spending  money on escorts when you are married, partnered or committed ? Doing any illegal drugs ? Buying your kids/your partner/yourself the wrong stuff ??
> 
> Will we extend this cashless society to all pension receivers ? Old Age?  Disability ? Single parents ? Will they all have to justify the last dollar they spend ? Who to ?




With regard the age pension, my guess is they will have to, eventually.


----------



## basilio (7 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I already posted there were only 1k Indian troops (4 companies) compared to the 400k fighting men. If you prorated on that basis you might see an Indian freckle. This is a nonsense and more or less an insult to the families of the majority who were white men of the British army.




Why be so ungracious Tisme? What is the downside in acknowledging the wider role of the British Empire in the war and Dunkirk ? How is recognising the support and bravery of the Indians on land and in the boats demeaning the remaining troops?
Not cool...


----------



## pixel (7 August 2017)

basilio said:


> key to delaying the German attack.



*The real key to delaying the German attack was a deliberate order by the Fuehrer himself.*
He considered the British as close to his Aryan ideal as could be. Based on that bias, he gave specific orders to delay the attack and "let them swim home" - in the vague hope the British might see the light and join his efforts to rid Europe of non-Aryans.
He may have had good reason to hold that belief. Not only had the British displayed a similar Superiority Complex (Britannia Rules the Waves) and regarded "natives" from other continents as inferior; but even King Edward VIII, brief as his reign may have been, continued to maintain a cordial relationship to the German Regime.


----------



## qldfrog (7 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Why be so ungracious Tisme? What is the downside in acknowledging the wider role of the British Empire in the war and Dunkirk ? How is recognising the support and bravery of the Indians on land and in the boats demeaning the remaining troops?
> Not cool...



I think it is just the response to relentless manipulation of figures to suit nowadays PC view of the world, which I am afraid you do not seem to see as it fits your "belief";
Non european were an infime minority in dunkirk but that fact does not fit with your view so let's change the past;
Neither Tism or I deny the war effort imposed on the colonies, and while Dunkirk was happening you had millions of colonials including Australians.. being moved into the war forces, but at that stage and in that location, zip or not far from that; sorry;
Not the same story for the liberation troups, the africa war but whatever you can type, facts are still (probably not for long) there
look at VC response previously on this thread to my affirmation, reread what i wrote, reread his answer and "rephrasing of what i wrote".Should I even bother?
It is a sad time for truly liberal and humanist people.Fake news are not Trump's exclusive domain, and they become the norm.
I personally find it worse (sad) when coming from people who probably think they have some integrity (roughly the left) than when rubbish come out of Andrew Bolt and cie.Hope long lost there
Not personal Basilio, I am sure you and others: VC, Pixel are well meaning
One of my grandfather ended up in a prisoner of war camp in Germany after than first wave, I personally met/had holidays, spent weekend as a child with a rescapee of Auschwiz: not that many did believe me, and learnt a lot of non PC facts;
And even here I had for dear friend one of the few hundreds of initial French in exile forces who started with nothing in London, a few boats and no colonial forces then and I tend to have a greater respect for their stories and the facts I learnt than whatever we want people to be brainwashed into .As they pass away, the history get rewritten and selected propaganda newreels are supposed to show me how wrong I am, and how wrong they were? I will stop there on this subject: I have not even seen the movie and am in no way interested


----------



## fiftyeight (7 August 2017)

I am lost, I am hoping the conservatives on the forum can set me straight.

Howard changed the Marriage Act with no plebiscite? Why do Liberals insist a plebiscite to change it again?


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Why be so ungracious Tisme? What is the downside in acknowledging the wider role of the British Empire in the war and Dunkirk ? How is recognising the support and bravery of the Indians on land and in the boats demeaning the remaining troops?
> Not cool...





Because it diminishes the film, it diminishes everything that the film hopes to convey, but adds racism, partisanship, division, politics, but worse it adds the cancerous 2017 social stigmatisation onto a 1940s society.

In 1940 two nations did something that was extraordinary by that era's standards, but impossible by today's selfish who prefer to denigrate and derogate, who pray at the alter of the individual rather than achievements of the many.

It was propaganda back in the day, but it galvanised a nation and its empire to fight the good fight. We all know how thankful they were that the USA got involved later on, but we also know how much they detested the USA taking the credit for all the hard work. We don't need to glorify 1000 Indians stable boys taking the credit for the many.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Because it diminishes the film, it diminishes everything that the film hopes to convey, but adds racism, partisanship, division, politics, but worse it adds the cancerous 2017 social stigmatisation onto a 1940s society.
> 
> In 1940 two nations did something that was extraordinary by that era's standards, but impossible by today's selfish who prefer to denigrate and derogate, who pray at the alter of the individual rather than achievements of the many.
> 
> It was propaganda back in the day, but it galvanised a nation and its empire to fight the good fight. We all know how thankful they were that the USA got involved later on, but we also know how much they detested the USA taking the credit for all the hard work. We don't need to glorify 1000 Indians stable boys taking the credit for the many.




Couldn't they at least have one Indian extra to show that others were there too?

If it weren't for the French guy in the movie I would still think Dunkirk was all British, and wouldn't have bothered to look up what country it's in - I thought it was Sweden all these years. I mean, France fell in a matter of weeks so I assumed no Allied forces woulds till be there.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2017)

pixel said:


> *The real key to delaying the German attack was a deliberate order by the Fuehrer himself.*
> He considered the British as close to his Aryan ideal as could be. Based on that bias, he gave specific orders to delay the attack and "let them swim home" - in the vague hope the British might see the light and join his efforts to rid Europe of non-Aryans.
> He may have had good reason to hold that belief. Not only had the British displayed a similar Superiority Complex (Britannia Rules the Waves) and regarded "natives" from other continents as inferior; but even King Edward VIII, brief as his reign may have been, continued to maintain a cordial relationship to the German Regime.




Really? I did not know that.

Saw a doco some years back and remembered the rain also played a role in delaying the Nazi advances by a couple of days. But I could be wrong.

Yea, Hitler greatly admired the US too. He ordered the Volkswagen be built as Ford and his Model-T was - affordable for the masses. Heard from Chomsky that he modelled his 1000 year Third Reich on US expansion across North America. 

But then all these psychos copy one another. All want to build a new Rome and be their own Ceasar.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2017)

pixel said:


> He considered the British as close to his Aryan ideal as could be.




Might explain why Trump seems to like Putin so much.


----------



## Tink (8 August 2017)

Fifty eight,

The Marriage Act has been between one man and one woman.
The natural process of having children.
It follows common law.

What was done by Howard, was agreed by both parties.

Family (father, mother, child) is the bedrock of society, and needs no government intervention.

-----------------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/gay-marriage.3680/


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> Couldn't they at least have one Indian extra to show that others were there too?




Yes and why not throw in a Chinaman, a Mexican, a Swede, a Norwegian, a unicorn, Luke Skywalker, etc. I'm sure they were all there.

Have a looksee at the bottom left of this picture and consider the majority .... you know the old George St John saying "ask not what can she do for me, but what can I do for her?" which even as recent as the 1950's shows people still considered the collective over the individuals.


----------



## Value Collector (10 August 2017)

Tink said:


> Fifty eight,
> 
> The Marriage Act has been between one man and one woman.



 Laws are easily changed, simply change the wording to "Between two people" and its done.



> The natural process of having children.




Thats got nothing to do with marriage.

the law doesn't state marriage is for breeding purposes, people that both don't want or can't have children are still able to be married under the law.



> Family (father, mother, child) is the bedrock of society, and needs no government intervention.




Again nothing to do with marriage.

You don't have to be married to have children, and you don't need to have children to be married.

-----------------------------


----------



## Tink (10 August 2017)

same sex already have civil unions which gives them the same rights as heterosexual couples.

Marriage is between one man and one woman.
The GOLD standard.
That is equal, in my view.

Two people and genderless?
Where we can't say
boy and girl
mother and father
ladies and gentlemen
husband and wife.

Not interested in political correctness and trying to strip our culture.

This is my view.
-------------------

Good to see we have a plebiscite and the public will have their say.


----------



## PZ99 (10 August 2017)

Tink said:


> Good to see we have a plebiscite and the public will have their say.



If the public vote yes for marriage equality will you accept the outcome?

Just curious


----------



## SirRumpole (10 August 2017)

PZ99 said:


> If the public vote yes for marriage equality will you accept the outcome?
> 
> Just curious




Just curious as to why the gay community did not accept the results of all the previous Parliamentary votes on this issue.


----------



## PZ99 (10 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Just curious as to why the gay community did not accept the results of all the previous Parliamentary votes on this issue.



Because they didn't have their say. It just went through and that was the end of it.

There was no democratic process. So this whole thing about it being a moral issue that should be decided by the people smacks of rank hypocrisy IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 August 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Because they didn't have their say. It just went through and that was the end of it.




They are getting their say now.

In any case the gay community were lobbying the politicians so they had their say before.



> There was no democratic process. So this whole thing about it being a moral issue that should be decided by the people smacks of rank hypocrisy IMO.




A Parliamentary debate is not democratic, so the people should have their say, er no wait a minute the people aren't democratic either. Maybe an AI program should decide.


----------



## Tink (10 August 2017)

Just to make it clear that though I stand up for traditional marriage, doesn't mean I treat anyone any differently.
I have said this before.

They are all men and women.


----------



## PZ99 (10 August 2017)

It's just that in recent times I have read that Christian groups are increasingly supporting marriage equality but I don't know whether that's from their own beliefs or from fear of being discriminated if they don't. Maybe it's not as much of a social engineering thing but one of tolerance and/or the accepting of change?


----------



## SirRumpole (10 August 2017)

PZ99 said:


> It's just that in recent times I have read that Christian groups are increasingly supporting marriage equality but I don't know whether that's from their own beliefs or from fear of being discriminated if they don't. Maybe it's not as much of a social engineering thing but one of tolerance and/or the accepting of change?




The Christian religion is a broad church (amen), and there are progressives and Conservatives. You won't find any degree of consensus in either Christianity or Islam about homosexuality because both religions know that they have members that are gay, but unfortunately for them the Good Book says that homosexuality is a sin.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-homosexuality/


----------



## fiftyeight (10 August 2017)

Tink said:


> Just to make it clear that though I stand up for traditional marriage, doesn't mean I treat anyone any differently.
> I have said this before.
> 
> They are all men and women.




Just to make it clear, even though I think the idea of marriage is dumb, I 100% support everybody's right to make that decision for themselves.

My "wife" and I celebrated our love and commitment to each other in front of our family and friends.We even stole some of the traditions of marriage as we thought they were a good idea. The celebrant was not registered and nothing official was lodged. We chose to celebrate our love in our way. If others feel the need for the government to recognise their love that is their choice.

This is what I don't get, I think the idea of marriage is dumb but if two people want to do it that is up them. You think the idea of 2 men marrying is dumb but you choose oppose it with every fibre of your being. We both think the idea of 2 men marrying is dumb but you want to get involved in their choice. THAT IS DUMB


----------



## sptrawler (10 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> *Wake-up call: Australian students fall behind Kazakhstan in maths and science ra**nkings
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ths-and-science-rankings-20161129-gszvt1.html*




Wow in the eighties, when I went to pick up my wife from Uni, all the Asian students were in the Library and the Aussies were in the on campus bar.
I wondered how long it would be, before the results would show up. LOL

Best we talk about gay marriage and a Republic, much more in line with the media, than students performance and or our economy.


----------



## MrChow (10 August 2017)

What if in 100 years time it all reverted back would that be social engineering of that generation?


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

Tink said:


> same sex already have civil unions which gives them the same rights as heterosexual couples.
> 
> Marriage is between one man and one woman.
> The GOLD standard.
> ...




"gold standard"?

Yes, the good old traditional marriages between a man and a woman... no fights, no extra-marital affairs, no abuse.


----------



## pixel (11 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The Christian religion is a broad church (amen), and there are progressives and Conservatives. You won't find any degree of consensus in either Christianity or Islam about homosexuality because both religions know that they have members that are gay, but unfortunately for them the Good Book says that homosexuality is a sin.



At a time (thousands of years ago) when those "Gods" were invented, your tribe's survival depended on a strong population with genetic diversity. Obviously, the rulers and law makers of the time had figured out that too much inbreeding wouldn't be such a good idea and could lead to (insert your favourite: Tasmania, Europe's Royalty, ...). Hence they permitted their men to raid neighbouring tribes and take women as prisoners and sex slaves. (Read it up in the Pentateuch.) Wasting some good strong semen up another man was counter-productive, hence forbidden and sinful. The Rulers didn't care how a guy felt, whether a woman enjoyed being bred, or whether a member of the tribe would have preferred to live with a same-sex partner. Such behaviour was a waste of scarce resources that wouldn't add to the variety of the tribe's gene pool, therefore it was Sin. Better to set an example and lose a few deviants (by stoning) than to allow a larger number to disobey "God's Commandments".

The thing that irks me in this day and age is the fact that Earth is suffering a massive problem of overpopulation, yet we stick to those ancient tribal rites that only exacerbate the problem. Muslims insist they have to outbreed Infidels. Upholders of "our Great Western Christian Culture" lament the threat of being outbred and want to prevent any of their "perfectly good sperm" being wasted. And all of that in the name of some fictitious Superman who allegedly created mankind in his image.

If that were true, and this all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving mythical figure had made men and women: *Why did he make some of them gay? Why didn't he simply give every man the right hormonal balance to be attracted to women - ideally only to the one (or four) allotted to him? And vice-versa?*
Making some gay, some lesbian, some even more confused, when you could avoid all the pain and heartache, not to mention jealousy and violence and coveting, seems like a cruel hoax to me and doesn't comply with the "all-loving" attribute. It's what one would rather expect from a sadistic creator, with a touch of masochism thrown in, considering he is said to have returned to get himself killed for getting it wrong. Why not plan ahead and get it right the first time!
As Heinlein put it: "A rather sloppy way to run a Universe..."


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> "gold standard"?
> 
> Yes, the good old traditional marriages between a man and a woman... no fights, no extra-marital affairs, no abuse.




I never fought with my wife, no extra marital affairs, no abuse so I guess I should vote yes because of it?


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I never fought with my wife, no extra marital affairs, no abuse so I guess I should vote yes because of it?




I was pointing out the obvious about that "gold standard" McGee. 

Not sure when a free and democratic country get the right to decide who other people should marry, what gender-specific love is appropriate. 

Even parents don't get to decide who their kid ought to marry.


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

pixel said:


> At a time (thousands of years ago) when those "Gods" were invented, your tribe's survival depended on a strong population with genetic diversity. Obviously, the rulers and law makers of the time had figured out that too much inbreeding wouldn't be such a good idea and could lead to (insert your favourite: Tasmania, Europe's Royalty, ...). Hence they permitted their men to raid neighbouring tribes and take women as prisoners and sex slaves. (Read it up in the Pentateuch.) Wasting some good strong semen up another man was counter-productive, hence forbidden and sinful. The Rulers didn't care how a guy felt, whether a woman enjoyed being bred, or whether a member of the tribe would have preferred to live with a same-sex partner. Such behaviour was a waste of scarce resources that wouldn't add to the variety of the tribe's gene pool, therefore it was Sin. Better to set an example and lose a few deviants (by stoning) than to allow a larger number to disobey "God's Commandments".
> 
> The thing that irks me in this day and age is the fact that Earth is suffering a massive problem of overpopulation, yet we stick to those ancient tribal rites that only exacerbate the problem. Muslims insist they have to outbreed Infidels. Upholders of "our Great Western Christian Culture" lament the threat of being outbred and want to prevent any of their "perfectly good sperm" being wasted. And all of that in the name of some fictitious Superman who allegedly created mankind in his image.
> 
> ...





It's either that God is a bit of a prick. Or that His followers just make up stuff about what He deem important or acceptable.


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> I was pointing out the obvious about that "gold standard" McGee.
> 
> Not sure when a free and democratic country get the right to decide who other people should marry, what gender-specific love is appropriate.
> 
> Even parents don't get to decide who their kid ought to marry.




Yes we should dismantle everything and run free among the candy canes, without any ordered society. It's 2017 and we don't need old rulz anymore.


----------



## Skate (11 August 2017)

pixel said:


> And all of that in the name of some fictitious Superman who allegedly created mankind in _*his*_ image."




*Minor Correction - Genesis 1:26*
Then God said, "Let Us make man in *Our* image, according to _*Our*_ likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 

Sorry for interrupting...

Carry on.


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2017)

Tink said:


> same sex already have civil unions which gives them the same rights as heterosexual couples.






So recognise their marriages too, what difference does it make in your life?


Tink said:


> Just to make it clear that though I stand up for traditional marriage, .




you mean like the ones in the bible, where where they have multiple wives?

Or the Bible ones where men marry their slaves?
or the ones in the bible where men sell their daughters?

Which version of traditional do you mean?


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's either that God is a bit of a prick. Or that His followers just make up stuff about what He deem important or acceptable.



The God of the bible is equal parts stiff and war monger.

I prefer Maui, lol there is no need to pray he'll just say your welcome.

think about it, if maui doesn't exist, why do we have coconuts? (check mate christians)


----------



## pixel (11 August 2017)

Skate said:


> *Minor Correction - Genesis 1:26*
> Then God said, "Let Us make man in *Our* image, according to _*Our*_ likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
> 
> Sorry for interrupting...
> ...



Has it ever occurred to you that the translators could have made a mistake?
Like using the Royal Plural because they may have thought it more appropriate for The Lord? They got it right when they translated the 10 Commandments: "I am ...". Remember also that, at the time when the English version was compiled, the idea of Trinity - "Three in One" - had already been conceived and marketed for over a thousand years. 
When the Pentateuch was put together, old Yahweh was very much solo and very macho. Which is understandable, considering he graduated from the office of God of War in the usual assortment of special-purpose gods that occupied the minds of pre-Mosaic tribes in the region.


----------



## luutzu (12 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The God of the bible is equal parts stiff and war monger.
> 
> I prefer Maui, lol there is no need to pray he'll just say your welcome.
> 
> think about it, if maui doesn't exist, why do we have coconuts? (check mate christians)





Yea, the Abrahamic God is a real SOB. He sure know how to hold a grudge... so Eve made a mistake and disobey you about the Apple. Don't put a juicy apple tree in the middle of endless lawn then get upset when the fruit's eaten - that's entrapment.

 And if you're upset, do you really need to condemn all the kids for generation upon generation? 

I remember catching an episode of that "Touched by an Angel" show some decades back. Some one asked the Irish looking Angel where was God during WWII, the Holocaust.... "He wept". He what? 


btw, your Disney owe me a marble coffee table top. My son was doing his Maui routine, jump with both feet on the thing and it cracked in half dude.


----------



## Tink (12 August 2017)

View attachment 66682


If the titanic sunk in 2017


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2017)

Tink is this the Traditional marriage you are talking about? these are the rules the bible lays out for marrying your slave.

(Note, you can have more than one wife, you just can't deny the first wife food and sex)

*Exodus 21:7-11*
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 *But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.*

10 *“If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy.* 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.


----------



## Tisme (12 August 2017)

So you think you have full control.....


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2017)

This is social conditioning propaganda from the the right of politics

Caption reads:


> You can't trust Labor with marriageA change to the Marriage Act would remove fundamental rights to free speech and freedom of religion. Labor's shadow Attorney General, Mark Dreyfus, this week said that Labor had removed exemptions (ie protections for free speech) before and is willing to look at it again. A yes vote in the marriage plebiscite would allow Labor to remove protections for churches and religious celebrants, and give free reign to the radical safe schools program. If you care about religious freedom, please share and vote no.


----------



## basilio (13 August 2017)

Tisme started this thread with a video from parents "outraged" at the sexualisation of their children through the Safe Schools program.  I suggest it would be useful to discover *who* these outraged people are, *their political agenda *and *the lies they spead *about the Safe Schools program to encourage the community to reject the Safe Schools curriculum material - and join an ultra-conservative Liberal Party

Check out the whole story

* Who's behind the Safe School videos? The concerned mums' political connections *


*Farrah Tomazin*
Marijke Rancie peers intently into the camera and calls on Victorian parents to "get really angry".

Her outrage is directed at Safe Schools, a program the Melbourne mother claims is trying to "erase gender", expose children to dildos in the classroom, and teach them how to masturbate using household items.

Current Time 0:15
/
Duration Time 1:50

More videos
*'Safe Schools is teaching your children anal sex'*
A parent's social media plea to fight the Safe Schools program has gone viral, but she fails to mention she's a Liberal Party member.

"I kid you not, the rumours about this program are 100 per cent true – this program sexualises children!" Rancie declares, in a 14-minute video that has so far been viewed online more than 4 million times.

"Safe Schools is teaching your children anal sex and anal sex positions. It's teaching them STIs like it's no big deal. The concept is hyper, hyper-sexual. I'm not OK with that. This is grooming."







Anti-Safe Schools campaigner and Liberal member Marijke Rancie. 
Rancie's claims have been disputed by the Victorian Education Department but if clicks are anything to go by, there's no doubt her video has struck a chord since it was uploaded on her Facebook page "Politicalpostingmamma", and later on an anti-Safe Schools website called You're Teaching Our Children What.

But why does this supposedly parent-driven website have the same server and registrar as the Australian Christian Lobby? Why has there been a sudden resurgence in campaigning activity against Safe Schools in recent months: from travelling roadshows and viral posts, to angry letters to principals and politicians?

And should Rancie have disclosed on the video that she's a Liberal Party member, part of growing network of so-called "mumma warriors" who are waging what critics claim is essentially a right-wing political war dressed up as a "grassroots" movement?

.In the corridors of power at Spring Street, in the suburban branches of Liberal heartland, and in the meeting rooms of the party's Exhibition Street headquarters, a stoush over the party's internal culture 
At its centre is Marcus Bastiaan, the charismatic 27-year-old who who has made it his mission to re-energise the Liberals' conservative base through a membership drive targeting everyone from Mormons and Evangelical Christians to Probus and ethnic community groups. Safe Schools, according to one Bastiaan ally, has been "a good recruitment tool"

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/w...ms-political-connections-20170811-gxukuu.html


----------



## Tisme (14 August 2017)

I'm guessing no one has a problem with this, because they have the right, just like any of us. 'Sick" is such a subjective word  LOL

http://www.m2voice.co.uk/after-sick...donkey-disgraced-animal-gets-perfect-revenge/


----------



## satanoperca (14 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing no one has a problem with this, because they have the right, just like any of us. 'Sick" is such a subjective word  LOL
> 
> http://www.m2voice.co.uk/after-sick...donkey-disgraced-animal-gets-perfect-revenge/



Open the flood gates, we need millions of these donkey f--ker coming into this country.

I cannot believe that article and it's content are real and if they are, please help us all. 

Having a wank is seen worse than f---king a helpless animal.

I need to find a new forum that doesn't expose me to this, I am just an innocent being.


----------



## basilio (14 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing no one has a problem with this, because they have the right, just like any of us. 'Sick" is such a subjective word  LOL
> 
> http://www.m2voice.co.uk/after-sick...donkey-disgraced-animal-gets-perfect-revenge/




Ha, ha, ha, ha ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.,ha,ha,ha  ad nauseum 

Really and truly do you or anyone with more than 2 working neurons actually believe that piece of rubbish ?  Did you get any clues from the other ridicululous  stories around it ?  Come on folks you run big businesses.   Your articulate. There is evidence of intelligence in most of your comments.

*How on Gods earth can't you see that that poisonous dribble is just that ?*
(But perhaps you do and are just taking the urine .. )


----------



## Joe Blow (14 August 2017)

Folks, this thread is about social engineering, so please discuss the topic at hand.



> The use of centralized planning in an attempt to manage social change and regulate the future development and behavior of a society.




There's no need to dive into the gutter and turn ASF into a dumping ground for "news" articles that would be more at home at The Daily Mail. This thread has gone way off topic and I'm asking everyone nicely to please get it back on topic. Some intelligent discussion about actual examples of social engineering would be good to see.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Some intelligent discussion about actual examples of social engineering would be good to see.




The ABC's pushing of the YES vote on SSM for example ?


----------



## Joe Blow (14 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The ABC's pushing of the YES vote on SSM for example ?




If you like, sure. However, I think we've probably had enough links to articles about muslims and donkeys and other similar gutter press rubbish.

I'm all for intelligent, well reasoned, constructive discussion and debate and I think that's what most people would prefer to see here at ASF.

(I'm not suggesting you have posted such stuff SirR, just commenting generally)


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2017)

No problem Joe, I omitted a  from my last post.


----------



## Tisme (15 August 2017)

OK

So someone was offended by the click bait I posted. If this was a Social Engineering uni class it would be a legitimate tool to gauge the response of protagonists. 

What boundaries are deemed inappropriate; certainly that piece is fairly benign by facebook and twitter standards, their users well used to those kind of posts? Obviously the mods on this forum have their own thresholds as do any members.

Social engineering is a real pain for many exasperated people who think society is moving in the wrong direction. Facebook and Twitter followers are more likely to want change, because they are at the coal face of the impetus for huggy huggy change. Don't believe me, then count the number of your friends proclaiming SSM and who are females who post those incessant life's rules memes.


----------



## PZ99 (15 August 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Some intelligent discussion about actual examples of social engineering would be good to see.



The stock market is a perfect example of social engineering 
One financially gains from exploiting anothers' weakness...


----------



## Tisme (21 August 2017)

The trouble with social engineering is that it is so insidiously ridiculous that any obsequious notion can be true:

I must admit I am puzzled why there is a such a movement and why society (especially women in this instance) is so easily manipulated into joining into a chorus of words they patently haven't investigated past the drivel layer of social media.

Are we being manipulated by global govts as a means to an end ... eg rest control from our superstitions to enhance their own?



> And this, I argue, reveals what is really at issue here. There was no _demand_ for "gay marriage" and this has nothing to do with gay rights. Instead, it is a strategic move in the modern state's drive to assume direct control over the reproduction of the population, bypassing our interpersonal encounters. This is not about natural justice, but the desire on the part of biopolitical tyranny to destroy marriage and the family as the most fundamental mediating social institution.




http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/04/23/3743531.htm


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 August 2017)

Interesting why business leaders are taking on the role of social engineers by enforcing diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Merit is no longer the primary consideration. Workplace "governance" is the grass roots of a cultural change.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Are we being manipulated by global govts as a means to an end ... eg rest control from our superstitions to enhance their own?




I think social engineering has its roots in the Far Left who want to take enterprise, innovation and free thinking out of society and replace it with a Marxist view of the world where individuals are subservient to the State and nobody owns anything or does any thinking for themselves.

This is the Lee Rhiannon view of the world, but the mainstream Greens are waking up to the fact that she is a loose cannon and hopefully they will throw her out soon.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 August 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting why business leaders are taking on the role of social engineers by enforcing diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Merit is no longer the primary consideration. Workplace "governance" is the grass roots of a cultural change.




This is not new W. 

Mr. Cadbury of halal chocolate fame was a follower of the religion known as Quakers and built model villages for his workers which were airy and conducive to good health.

Mr. Trump of the brilliantine hair has legalised plastic bottles of water in National Parks in the USA, so as to provide more profits and a few jobs for people who bottle tap water to sell to muppets, presumably at the behest of some of his seedy golfing mates who profit from such muppets. 

Mr. Joyce, the head of Qantas pursues a marriage equality agenda as the CEO of a multi-million Australian company.

Merit is in the eye of the beholder, and is executed with the power of the guy with power.

Interestingly social mores revert to the mean eventually.

gg


----------



## Tisme (21 August 2017)

And this is the counter measure to social manipulation, the govt manipulating the manipulators with the public the ones affected:



> Governments are starting to recognize that fake news is something that must be actively fought. Various government agencies are now setting up services to debunk stories that they consider to be false. They are also considering imposing regulations and punishing sites that do publish misinformation.





https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us...ws-cyber-propaganda-the-abuse-of-social-media


----------



## SirRumpole (21 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> And this is the counter measure to social manipulation, the govt manipulating the manipulators with the public the ones affected:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We need more "Fact Checkers" in the media.


----------



## qldfrog (21 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> punishing sites that do publish misinformation.



Is anyone waking up to what that means?
The west is becoming scarier by the day ; even before robot killers roam among us
A nice parallel:
for the lefties: nazi germany,
for the right inclined: pravda during the soviet time;
The truth is in the eyes of the beholder as the current SSM shows us daily


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2017)

Govt going to force 5000 welfare recipients to drug testing, so they can cure them.. Orwellian LNP at work


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Govt going to force 5000 welfare recipients to drug testing, so they can cure them.. Orwellian LNP at work




Good idea.

I object to my money being injected or smoked (also drunk and maybe they should be breathalysed as well).

I also fear for the kids of some of these addicts. Maybe if the parents get their welfare managed the kids will get a better deal.


----------



## qldfrog (22 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Good idea..



honestly, I doubt it will have any effect
they will sell bread or nappies at half price to the neighbour and smoke/inject anyway.or revert to stealing to get the cash...But I see the point, less the practicality


----------



## McLovin (22 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> honestly, I doubt it will have any effect
> they will sell bread or nappies at half price to the neighbour and smoke/inject anyway.or revert to stealing to get the cash...But I see the point, less the practicality




The underlying theory is fine, but like you say in practise it will create so many outcomes that anyone with a half a brain can see coming...home break-ins, robberies, car theft. If it was that easy to cure an addict they would have done it decades ago.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

McLovin said:


> If it was that easy to cure an addict they would have done it decades ago.




No one said it was easy, but as this strategy hasn't been tried before who is to say it won't work ?

Give it a try, and if it doesn't work, can it.


----------



## McLovin (22 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No one said it was easy, but as this strategy hasn't been tried before who is to say it won't work ?
> 
> Give it a try, and if it doesn't work, can it.




It has been tried though in WA...



> THE cashless welfare card championed by mining billionaire Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest” has done nothing to reduce methamphetamine use and instead backfired by leading to a crime surge, prostitution and rorting, WA’s leading Aboriginal health group warns.
> 
> Aboriginal Health Council of WA chairwoman Michelle Nelson-Cox said no drop in meth use had been seen in the East Kimberley, one of two sites in Australia where the Turnbull Government has been trialling the initiative for the past year. She also said the card was still being used as a currency for drugs.
> 
> ...




http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...a/news-story/adc141c9c21467e3c33b6355ff682c29

And in the NT...



> There has been a substantial decrease in per capita alcohol consumption from the mid-2000s. However, this decrease started well before the NTER [Northern Territory Emergency Response] and is almost certainly driven by factors other than income management.
> 
> The number of alcohol-related presentations to emergency departments and admissions to public hospitals by Indigenous people in the Northern Territory has increased dramatically since the mid-2000s.
> 
> ...




http://caepr.anu.edu.au/sites/defau...ent in the Northern Territory_full report.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

McLovin said:


> It has been tried though in WA...




Well, I guess we have to take both sides views with a grain of salt.

The government reckons it's been a success (defending its idea), and the Aboriginal Health Council (quite possibly a mouthpiece for a community that wants unrestricted cash handouts) says it's a failure.

Neither of them appears to have produced any actual data, so I guess we all remain in the dark about the actual effects.


----------



## McLovin (22 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I guess we have to take both sides views with a grain of salt.
> 
> The government reckons it's been a success (defending its idea), and the Aboriginal Health Council (quite possibly a mouthpiece for a community that wants unrestricted cash handouts) says it's a failure.
> 
> Neither of them appears to have produced any actual data, so I guess we all remain in the dark about the actual effects.




Did you read the second paper I posted? It has more data than you could shake a stick at, and was commissioned by the government.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2017)

McLovin said:


> Did you read the second paper I posted? It has more data than you could shake a stick at, and was commissioned by the government.




In that case I hope someone asks Christian Porter about it so we can hear his side of the story.

Nick Xenophon seems a hard man to please and it seems he's going to support the trial.


----------



## cynic (22 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We need more "Fact Checkers" in the media.



Given the current day prevalence of humans seemingly oblivious to the distinction between facts and opinions thereof, my concern is that the introduction of more "Fact Checkers" will only give rise to the need for more "Fact Checker" checkers.

I believe that, rather than delegating such an essential cognitive function, people need to learn how to think and reason for themselves.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2017)

McLovin said:


> The underlying theory is fine, but like you say in practise it will create so many outcomes that anyone with a half a brain can see coming...home break-ins, robberies, car theft. If it was that easy to cure an addict they would have done it decades ago.



I agree.
The other thing the libs seem to be trying to introduce is a cashless society. There has been a lot of talk of doing away with the larger notes.
There is a larger plan being carried out and it will all tie in neatly in the end.

Targeting cash from the poorest end of society and their ability to get it at it. 

Worst bunch of freedom destroying libs for a while.


----------



## luutzu (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No one said it was easy, but as this strategy hasn't been tried before who is to say it won't work ?
> 
> Give it a try, and if it doesn't work, can it.




It's not being implemented because it work elsewhere, or because they want to "try" to save the poor from themselves.

It's being implemented to further reinforce the ravings from the likes of the Murdoch press and other patriots telling us that those on welfare are there because they are lazy and/or drug abusers. That there are so many drug users on welfare that the gov't have to spend more money to test them - why else would the gov't spend money if the problem is so far and few right?

This has been tried in the US. And when these drug tests hasn't produce enough cases to kick desperate people off of welfare, they'll try coupons or food stamp. You know, when people are poor, are down on their luck, the thing to do is to publicly shame them and tell them how screwed up they are. 

That's how you "help" lift them out of that dependence on the generous safety net... or make it so bad they just kick themselves out and either go get a job or just rob somebody.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> This has been tried in the US. And when these drug tests hasn't produce enough cases to kick desperate people off of welfare, they'll try coupons or food stamp. You know, when people are poor, are down on their luck, the thing to do is to publicly shame them and tell them how screwed up they are.




The drug problem has got worse over the decades despite "war on drugs" in the US and elsewhere.

Maybe people who take drugs and sell their kids to get drug money should be publicly shamed into getting help to get off the drugs.  If we keep feeding their habit they will keep doing it.


----------



## luutzu (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The drug problem has got worse over the decades despite "war on drugs" in the US and elsewhere.
> 
> Maybe people who take drugs and sell their kids to get drug money should be publicly shamed into getting help to get off the drugs.  If we keep feeding their habit they will keep doing it.




The "War on Drugs" was a pretext for the US peace-keeping missions in South America. Just that it was so well played that some doctors and health managers actually buy it too. 

"Just say No" does not work. Public shaming... people who can be shamed are the ones that need help; those who profit and deal in drugs just cannot be shamed - it's their business model.

Heard a while back from some US expert that these kind of drug tests are just the Nanny State's way of shaming ALL welfare recipients. And shaming them not for drugs or misuse of what little they're receiving, but for being too "lazy" to not find work that ain't there. 

Paying tax is apparently all our duty. For the greater good and all that bs. But when people fall and need some help, it's go screw yourself you parasite.


----------



## Tisme (23 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> The "War on Drugs" was a pretext for the US peace-keeping missions in South America. Just that it was so well played that some doctors and health managers actually buy it too.
> 
> "Just say No" does not work. Public shaming... people who can be shamed are the ones that need help; those who profit and deal in drugs just cannot be shamed - it's their business model.
> 
> ...





Mate you are like an old pair of slippers. Too good to replace and ragged around the edges.


----------



## basilio (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The drug problem has got worse over the decades despite "war on drugs" in the US and elsewhere.
> 
> Maybe people who take drugs and sell their kids to get drug money should be publicly shamed into getting help to get off the drugs.  If we keep feeding their habit they will keep doing it.




Are you aware of how and why the"drug problem" in the US has exploded in the past 20 years ? There are many reasons but the role of the drug companies in promoting opiod use with legal prescription drugs has created one of the overwhelming problems in terms of addiction and deaths.
One would also argue that the destruction of millions of manufacturing jobs as created a desperate underclass of people who see drugs as way to block out the reality the live in.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...w-purdue-pharma-helped-spark-opioid-epidemic/


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Are you aware of how and why the"drug problem" in the US has exploded in the past 20 years ? There are many reasons but the role of the drug companies in promoting opiod use with legal prescription drugs has created one of the overwhelming problems in terms of addiction and deaths.




So we learn from the US and don't let it happen here. The US is getting to be a basket case in more ways than one, and I feel sorry for the many decent Americans who have to live in an increasingly turbulent society.

But we still have to deal with ice, ecstacy, amphetamines and other designer drugs that are causing even more damage than the traditional ones.

I really can't see much solution other than locking addicts up and giving them treatment until the drugs are out of their system and untill they dob in whoever sold them the stuff.

And maybe this welfare thing is another way of getting to the pushers by identifying the addicts so they can lead police to the suppliers.


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Are you aware of how and why the"drug problem" in the US has exploded in the past 20 years ? There are many reasons but the role of the drug companies in promoting opiod use with legal prescription drugs has created one of the overwhelming problems in terms of addiction and deaths.
> One would also argue that the destruction of millions of manufacturing jobs as created a desperate underclass of people who see drugs as way to block out the reality the live in.
> 
> http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...w-purdue-pharma-helped-spark-opioid-epidemic/



 Agree with what yousay here bas, but wonder if you see the irony


----------



## Tisme (23 August 2017)

basilio said:


> Are you aware of how and why the"drug problem" in the US has exploded in the past 20 years ? There are many reasons but the role of the drug companies in promoting opiod use with legal prescription drugs has created one of the overwhelming problems in terms of addiction and deaths.
> One would also argue that the destruction of millions of manufacturing jobs as created a desperate underclass of people who see drugs as way to block out the reality the live in.
> 
> http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...w-purdue-pharma-helped-spark-opioid-epidemic/





Like weed and the shareholders who are profiting from it?


----------



## luutzu (23 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> Mate you are like an old pair of slippers. Too good to replace and ragged around the edges.




Taking that as a compliment  ?

Who need friends when you're having too much fun offending people's sensibilities, right?


----------



## luutzu (23 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So we learn from the US and don't let it happen here. The US is getting to be a basket case in more ways than one, and I feel sorry for the many decent Americans who have to live in an increasingly turbulent society.
> 
> But we still have to deal with ice, ecstacy, amphetamines and other designer drugs that are causing even more damage than the traditional ones.
> 
> ...




Confucius says, when those of high position and responsibilities work diligently to create a fair and productive society, setting good examples and providing opportunities to all under Heaven; the people will be gainfully employed and will themselves follow the law and regulation without needing to be reprimanded.

When those in government are corrupt and self-serving, making policies that favour friends and masters at the expense of the masses; then create fines and penalties to punish small crimes and misdemeanours, that's entrapment and it's messed up, y'all. 

Or was it Lao Tze?


----------



## Tisme (23 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> Taking that as a compliment  ?
> 
> Who need friends when you're having too much fun offending people's sensibilities, right?





Yep, but yes compliment ... you're getting rusty


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> Confucius says, when those of high position and responsibilities work diligently to create a fair and productive society, setting good examples and providing opportunities to all under Heaven; the people will be gainfully employed and will themselves follow the law and regulation without needing to be reprimanded.



Isn't that Communism?


----------



## luutzu (23 August 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Isn't that Communism?




The second scenario? Both Communism and Capitalism.  

The first is theoretical. It's what's promised with the second being what's delivered.

Oh, another fortune cookie: Confucius says, all know the Way; Few walk it.


----------



## Tisme (27 August 2017)




----------



## cynic (27 August 2017)

Tisme said:


>




Insightful clip in that it shows just how easily people can delude themselves when pursuing ideals. 

Everybody has full freedom to express their views with only one proviso, namely, all expressed views must agree with mine!!!


----------



## wayneL (28 August 2017)

So we are in about December in Nineteeneightythree.

All the mainstream politics is virtue signalling about race, SSM and transgenderism, weather as climate alarmism etc. All the really important **** </sarc>.

Meanwhile.....


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

Remember when Victoria first and then Australia introduced legislated invitro fertilisation and we were guaranteed it would never be used for other than hetro sexual married couples. And we all fell for it.

We were so naive back then in 1988, but now we know that legislated social changes won't lead on to different outcomes than what we have been told.  Yep no fooling us anymore.


----------



## Value Collector (30 August 2017)

Tisme said:


>




I hate to say it but she is correct, free speech doesn't mean you have the right to a soap box where ever you want.

If I want to ban a person from speaking at my home or business I can, My right to free speech doesn't give me the right to go into any school of my choice and demand to be listened to.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2017)

The Land of The Free with it's sacred Amendments on Free Speech came to a similar conclusion to VC a few years ago.  It was a response to the Westbro Baptist Church protesting against gays, the US military, and the general rottenness of Western Civillisation.

_*Laws limiting funeral protests*

In response to the protests conducted by Westboro members at Indiana funerals, a bill was introduced in the Indiana General Assembly that would make it a felony to protest within 500 feet (150 m) of a funeral. The bill provides penalties of up to three years in prison and a $10,000 fine for those found to be in violation of the law. Shortly before this bill was signed members of the church had threatened to protest in Kokomo, Indiana, at a funeral service that was being held for a soldier who was killed in Iraq. On January 11, 2006, the bill unanimously (11–0) passed a committee vote,[133] and while members of the church had traveled to Kokomo to protest, they were not seen during or after the funeral service. On May 23, 2006, the state of Michigan banned any intentional disruption of funerals within 500 feet (150 m) of the ceremony. Violating the statute would be a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison and a $5,000 fine for the first offense and up to four years in prison and a $10,000 fine for a subsequent offense.[134]


On May 17, 2006, the state of Illinois enacted Senate Bill 1144, the "Let Them Rest In Peace Act", to shield grieving military families from protests during funerals and memorial services of fallen military service members. A first-time violation of the Act is a Class C misdemeanor, punishable by up to 30 days in jail and a $1,500 fine and a Class 4 felony for a second or subsequent offense, which is punishable by one to three years in state prison and a fine of up to $25,000.[135]


On May 29, 2006, President George W. Bush signed into law the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act (Pub.L. 109–228), prohibiting protests within 300 feet (91 m) of the entrance of any cemetery under control of the National Cemetery Administration from 60 minutes before to 60 minutes after a funeral.[136] Penalties for violating the act are up to $100,000 in fines and up to one year imprisonment.[136] T*he bill garnered overwhelming bipartisan support in Congress with a 408–3 vote in the House, with 21 not voting, and a unanimous vote in the Senate.[136]*


On January 11, 2011, the state of Arizona held an emergency legislative session to pass a bill barring protests within 300 feet (91 m) of a funeral and within an hour from its beginning or end. The bill was swiftly signed into law ahead of the January 12 funeral of those killed in the 2011 Tucson shooting.[137][138]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church_


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2017)

so you ladies believe that it is ok for universities to promote one extreme of political thought and exclude all others?


----------



## Value Collector (30 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> so you ladies believe that it is ok for universities to promote one extreme of political thought and exclude all others?



Simply saying its not against "free speech".

Nothing is stopping the speaker renting a hall, and inviting students to come along and listen, they won't be jailed, so they have free speech.

The speaker can also limit who speaks at their rented hall, limiting the people at the event down what ever lines they want, that doesn't breech free speech either.


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I hate to say it but she is correct, free speech doesn't mean you have the right to a soap box where ever you want.
> 
> If I want to ban a person from speaking at my home or business I can, My right to free speech doesn't give me the right to go into any school of my choice and demand to be listened to.




One of those conundrums. I mean nobody wants Germaine Greer except the ABC's QANDA for example. And I'd like ban the constant queue of "what about me" on QANDA as well.

But Universities are traditionally places where the various schools invite nut jobs and the venerable to contrast their ideas with common sense on the Tisme Scale, if only to parade the effects of drugs, alcohol and senility on the brain for 5h!ts and giggles.

It doesn't help that the pompous tart,  suffering physical rigour trumping vigour, on the clip, who probably hung around the sisters collegiate at Uni, is trying to explain her pomposity to a pompous old moribund twit who probably spent his time at Oxford getting his arse paddled by a monocled professor of rum, bum and gramophone records.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I hate to say it but she is correct, free speech doesn't mean you have the right to a soap box where ever you want.




No she isn't.

Universities should be institutions of free thought and free expression, the very place where a multitude of ideas are tossed around, chewed over, analysed with rigour and logic and thrown out if they are bs.

Universities are for teaching critical thinking, not for mollycoddling shrinking violets. Uni students aren't children any more, if they have been properly thought to fliter out bs then the fruitcakes will be sharply dealt with.


----------



## Value Collector (30 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No she isn't.
> 
> .




If I ask a University to provide me a soap box from which I can lecture students, and they deny me, have I been denied my rights to free speech?

The answer in no.

Whether you think the university did the right thing is another topic, my comment simply relates to the claim is was denying free speech.

For example, Richard Dawkins would probably be banned from giving a biology lesson at many religious schools, because he would discuss evolution, this rule might not create a good education for the students, but it is not a violation of free speech.



> Uni students aren't children any more, if they have been properly thought to fliter out bs then the fruitcakes will be sharply dealt with.




should a jewish kid who just really wants to study to become a dentist have to put up with a nazi speaker who wants to preach anti jewish stuff?


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2017)

Precisely so Horace.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> should a jewish kid who just really wants to study to become a dentist have to put up with a nazi speaker who wants to preach anti jewish stuff?




I suggest he doesn't attend the lecture.


----------



## Value Collector (30 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I suggest he doesn't attend the lecture.



but should he have to put up with the abuse he might face should the person promoting the hate speech convince say 5% of those who listened that jews were lesser humans?


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but should he have to put up with the abuse he might face should the person promoting the hate speech convince say 5% of those who listened that jews were lesser humans?



that's no less offensive than some of the extreme left wing crap being promoted in universities


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but should he have to put up with the abuse he might face should the person promoting the hate speech convince say 5% of those who listened that jews were lesser humans?



that's no less offensive than some of the extreme left wing crap being promoted in universities


----------



## Value Collector (30 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> that's no less offensive than some of the extreme left wing crap being promoted in universities



such as?


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> that's no less offensive than some of the extreme left wing crap being promoted in universities



 and here


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

Just incase you fell for the Billy Shorten indignation speech today about false advertising in the No campaign today.

Here is the Safe School promotional partners that infested Frankston School at the time Cella White pulled her son out for being encouraged to wear a dress to school :

https://minus18.org.au/

Their modus operandi :



> The government-funded program by the Safe Schools Coalition is designed to promote inclusiveness for ‘same sex attracted, intersex and gender diverse’ students, but critics say it is indoctrinating children in sexual identity politics under the pretence of a bulling program.


----------



## bellenuit (30 August 2017)

I don't know if it is applicable in this particular case, but the broader and more and more frequent issue  is not saying that a speaker should have the right to demand the universities give him/her a forum to speak his/her views.

In many cases speakers have been invited to give talks or attend debates, but then have been dis-invited by the student union or college board because that persons views would be seen as offensive or hurtful to some. They demand that universities provide safe spaces for students and safe spaces mean in their definition a campus wide ban on anyone that the alt-left disagree with. And this does not relate to neo-nazis, but in many cases those who have moderate views not palatable to radical feminists or the alt-left.

Worse still, the ban applies to any event held on campus even when it will only be attended by those who want to attend.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 August 2017)

Gee whiz. Puberty and the sexual identity phase is opening right up. I think the goal is to teach acceptance and when Tommy turns up in a dress it is okay. Schools for straight students only is one solution for those parents desiring their children are not in classrooms with alternate sexual preference students. A bit like adult life choice where straight people don't go to gay venues, parades and social events.

Equal does not mean the same. My example is - there are many types of cats in the world but they all don't live together. The engineers see all people as equal. They are friggin not.


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

Meg Ryan Conditioning:

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/meg-ryan-theory





> T_his article was taken from the February 2012 issue of Wired magazine._
> 
> _This article was taken from the February 2012 issue of Wired magazine. Be the first to read Wired's articles in print before they're posted online, and get your hands on loads of additional content by_ _subscribing online_.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (30 August 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> My example is - there are many types of cats in the world but they all don't live together. The engineers see all people as equal. They are friggin not.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 August 2017)

Looks like a cat version of the McGregor - Mayweather weigh-in. So the cat mouthing off there should get TKO'd when the biff is on.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 August 2017)

Anyone interested in starting a campaign? I am not happy about the demands being placed by minority groups. The 'Happy as it is' campaign is for all people who wish to leave things as they are. You had nothing to do with the plight of Aboriginal people, you have natural sexual orientation, you integrate into Australian lifestyle, you earn an income and you mind your own business. Bloody simple.


----------



## Tisme (31 August 2017)

Energy company application form:


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

WTF ? Electricity is now being socially engineeered ?


----------



## basilio (31 August 2017)

What does Intersex mean ?  Interested in learning more ?
https://minus18.org.au/index.php/first-person/item/847-im-intersex-heres-what-that-means


----------



## Tisme (31 August 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Anyone interested in starting a campaign? I am not happy about the demands being placed by minority groups. The 'Happy as it is' campaign is for all people who wish to leave things as they are. You had nothing to do with the plight of Aboriginal people, you have natural sexual orientation, you integrate into Australian lifestyle, you earn an income and you mind your own business. Bloody simple.




That would be discrimination. You can't discriminate if you are white + hetro  and most importantly + identify as a male.


----------



## Tisme (31 August 2017)

basilio said:


> What does Intersex mean ?  Interested in learning more ?
> https://minus18.org.au/index.php/first-person/item/847-im-intersex-heres-what-that-means




I think we all know what that is. I'm wondering who decided to throw them under the LGBT bus? Congenital physical defects aren't the same as self mutilation and lifestyle choices.


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> ICongenital physical defects aren't the same as self mutilation and lifestyle choices.




Wow and I wonder why there is so much hatred in our society.

Defects, I hate to be an intersex person at your dinner partner. So Joe, you are defective as you were not born the norm, male or female. You must feel great about yourself you are not one of us.

Self Mutilation, WTF. 

Lifestyle choices - whether being LGBT is a choice or not, really is not of your business. They are asking you to be gay, so don't ask someone to be straight.

As for whether a boy can wear a dress or that be it a girl can wear pants, who cares, it is only clothing, hardly the end of the word stuff.

Our society can never more forward if we have so many closed minds.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> As for whether a boy can wear a dress or that be it a girl can wear pants, who cares, it is only clothing, hardly the end of the word stuff.




The number of LGBTI children at school must be so small that it doesn't warrant filling normal kids minds with tripe while they are trying to learn skills that they will need to get a job, go to uni etc.

Just tell them to respect differences, we don't need them fantasizing about being gay or playing with dildos or vaginas in class.


----------



## Value Collector (31 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The number of LGBTI children at school must be so small that it doesn't warrant filling normal kids minds with tripe while they are trying to learn skills that they will need to get a job, go to uni etc.
> .





if the average class size is 30 kids, that could be just under 1 lgbti child per class, not to mention that even those that aren't LGBT themselves have about a 1 in 20 chance of having a lgbt child later in life and a 1 in 10 chance of having an lgbt grandchild.

when you factor in the chances of a persons friend, work colleague, neighbour etc etc might be lgbt, then the chances are even higher that they will be around lgbt people, I think it is worthwhile to teach about it and try and reduce the stigma that surround this group, if we do a good job of it, in 20 years it won't be needed.


----------



## Tisme (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> Wow and I wonder why there is so much hatred in our society.
> 
> Defects, I hate to be an intersex person at your dinner partner. So Joe, you are defective as you were not born the norm, male or female. You must feel great about yourself you are not one of us.
> 
> ...





What hatred? Who do you know is driven to hatred by my posts?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> if the average class size is 30 kids, that could be just under 1 lgbti child per class, not to mention that even those that aren't LGBT themselves have about a 1 in 20 chance of having a lgbt child later in life and a 1 in 10 chance of having an lgbt grandchild.
> 
> when you factor in the chances of a persons friend, work colleague, neighbour etc etc might be lgbt, then the chances are even higher that they will be around lgbt people, I think it is worthwhile to teach about it and try and reduce the stigma that surround this group, if we do a good job of it, in 20 years it won't be needed.




Well, it's a matter of how you teach it. As I said a factual explanation of differences would suffice, it would probably only take one lesson. Kids don't need their heads filled with rubbish about fantasizing about being gay if they are not, if you are going to go down that path why not get gay kids to fantasize about being straight instead ?


----------



## Value Collector (31 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it's a matter of how you teach it. As I said a factual explanation of differences would suffice, it would probably only take one lesson. Kids don't need their heads filled with rubbish about fantasizing about being gay if they are not, if you are going to go down that path why not get gay kids to fantasize about being straight instead ?



What us you really source for this lesson that taught kids to fantasize?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What us you really source for this lesson that taught kids to fantasize?




http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/safe-schools-coalition/
http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/all-of-us/
http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/lesson_2edited.pdf


----------



## Logique (31 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> such as?



Are you that naive VC? 

If you want a career as an academic, there are required views on politics, climate change, feminism 2.0 and environmental policy. Identify as a conservative: watch you career stall.


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/safe-schools-coalition/
> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/all-of-us/
> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/lesson_2edited.pdf




So what, role playing, cannot see the harm, it is trying to teach tolerance, empathy and understanding.

Something that seems to lack on this forum.


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> So what, role playing, cannot see the harm, it is trying to teach tolerance, empathy and understanding.
> 
> Something that seems to lack on this forum.



Rubbish.

Almost all of us are happy to be inclusive,  but no matter how tolerant and empathetic I feel,  there is no way I ever want to be put in a position of imagining a gay relationship for myself, no way ever.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

Another example of social engineering ?

Personally I think this guy is a nutter, but should he not be allowed to argue a case ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-31/anti-vaxxer-kent-heckenlively-denied-australian-visa/8859586

There doesn't appear to be any racism, homophobia, naziism involved, just a view contrary to current thinking.


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Almost all of us are happy to be inclusive,  but no matter how tolerant and empathetic I feel,  there is no way I ever want to be put in a position of imagining a gay relationship for myself, no way ever.




empathy
ˈɛmpəθi/
_noun_

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Imagine
ɪˈmadʒɪn/
_verb_

*1*.
form a mental image or concept of.
I can only imagine a world were can actually show empathy.

Interesting words, imagine, it is without hurt to anyone else. 

Where would the world be without imagination?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> I can only imagine a world were can actually show empathy.




So we can't show empathy to a sick animal without imagining we actually are that animal ?


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2017)

Exactly,  I don't need to have the snot bashed out of me to feel empathy for victims of violence. 

Neither have I ever been to war, yet feel for what people have gone through. 

I don't need to imagine a relationship with a another man to understand than there can be love like there can be between man and woman. 

But, I prefer not to imagine it thanks very much.  Just as I imagine a hetro relationship may be not something a gay or Les person may want to imagine.


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> Neither have I ever been to war, yet feel for what people have gone through.




How do you feel for something without having experienced it, unless you imagine what it feels like.


----------



## Value Collector (31 August 2017)

Logique said:


> Are you that naive VC?
> 
> If you want a career as an academic, there are required views on politics, climate change, feminism 2.0 and environmental policy. Identify as a conservative: watch you career stall.




when I said "such as" I was asking for specific examples that were worse than a nazi preaching hate and telling jewish people they were lessor humans.

If you want to quote me, why not answer the question? because it was a genuine question.


----------



## Value Collector (31 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/safe-schools-coalition/
> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/all-of-us/
> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/lesson_2edited.pdf



Are you talking about this bit




> Lesson 2 is of particular concern as the teaching materials encourage students to become, or at least think about becoming sexually active, as indicated in the following comment, “Invite students to imagine themselves in the role of a young person who is aged 16 years or older and is going out with someone they are really into.”




It's not "teaching kids to fantasise about being gay"

I think the claims being made but the anti LGBT crowd are pretty over blown.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Are you talking about this bit
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It appears you didn't read the whole bit.

Second column at the top

"while the character of those on the right hand side of the column is going out with someone of the opposite sex".

We are talking 11 year olds here. This sort of stuff is quite inappropriate.


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> How do you feel for something without having experienced it, unless you imagine what it feels like.



so you're suggesting that I should be sodomized in order to understand that men may have feelings for each other


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

Oh please, give me something intelligent to discuss.

Imagination has got nothing to do with physicality.

Anyone, often find the ones that are narrow minded are the same one buying strapons for their wives to use on them.

Maybe you just might like it.


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2017)

Intelligent? Say what?

It was you that suggested people cannot empathize unless they role-play a gay relationship. Absurd.

As to my and my wife's sexual proclivities, well, I ain't gonna ask anyone to role-play what we enjoy.

Get it?


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

wayneL said:


> so you're suggesting that I should be sodomized in order to understand that men may have feelings for each other




I will help you out a little, as I have empathy for those that are a little slow.

I did not say you need to be sodomized in order to understand, they are your words.

I simply stated, that in order to understand an experience or feeling that one hasn't experienced themselves personally they are required to use their imagination.

Empathy is about how others feel, in order to be empathetic, if one has not experienced the situation, they have to image what it would feel like.

As imagination doesn't require an act that is physical, I cannot see the harm done if children are asked to role play a situation. 

We or I should say, some of us live in the 21st century and so do my children, they have access to information that past generations did not. times do change, and one must change with them.

11 year olds are what was 16 years olds of the last generation and 20 years olds of the previous.

Do you not think they have access to pr0n at age eleven. 

Do you believe that all access to the internet are denied to children or should I say stopped by their parents. If you do you are naive.

Our whole society has been based on imagination, religion. Prove that God exists and prove me wrong, but it is only our imagination that has created a god(s) and our belief that one exists.

Just like it is some peoples belief that it is wrong for a boy to wear a dress, or two same sex individuals to get married. It doesn't effect anyone physically.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> I simply stated, that in order to understand an experience or feeling that one hasn't experienced themselves personally they are required to use their imagination.




The bottom line is that people can imagine that they are someone else, but their imagination could be completely wrong because it is only imagination ie they are making things up.

To have complete empathy, people must *experience* what they are having empathy with, and no straight person is actually going to go through a gay experience, so trying to teach children to have empathy through imagination is a false concept.


----------



## satanoperca (31 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> so trying to teach children to have empathy through imagination is a false concept.




So based on your comment, no one can show empathy unless they have experienced the same situation.

So unless you have been raped by a priest, you cannot show empathy to a victim of the church.

Or a child cannot show empathy to another child if they are say a paraplegic, dying of cancer or have lost a mother or a father unless they themselves have been in that situation.

So you are not empathetic to those who are dying as you have not died yourself, as by your statement imagination is a false concept.

This discussing is about role playing not physically doing.


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2017)

I am actually starting to lose empathy because of all this ****. 

#### 'em.... anyone that wants to above their lifestyle choices down my throat,  whatever they are. 

And I am using my vote to say so.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2017)

satanoperca said:


> So based on your comment, no one can show empathy unless they have experienced the same situation.




I'm saying empathy has little to do with imagination. It comes from within, it can't be taught.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It appears you didn't read the whole bit.
> 
> Second column at the top
> 
> ...




You think that is "teaching kids to fantasise about being gay", I think thats a very alarmist choice of words.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You think that is "teaching kids to fantasise about being gay", I think thats a very alarmist choice of words.




The fact is that people can be bullied for numerous reasons; being tall, short, fat, thin, wearing glasses, having a learning disability, having poor parents you name it.

I don't need to "imagine" being any of these to know that bullying anyone is wrong. That is why "Safe Schools" is too narrow in just focussing on LGBTI. If students are just faced with this particular case they may take it out on other kids who have other "differences".

Safe Schools should be broadly based not narrow focussed as it is now, which is the result of it being run by a few people with their own barrows to push.


----------



## cynic (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact is that people can be bullied for numerous reasons; being tall, short, fat, thin, wearing glasses, having a learning disability, having poor parents you name it.
> 
> I don't need to "imagine" being any of these to know that bullying anyone is wrong. That is why "Safe Schools" is too narrow in just focussing on LGBTI. If students are just faced with this particular case they may take it out on other kids who have other "differences".
> 
> Safe Schools should be broadly based not narrow focussed as it is now, which is the result of it being run by a few people with their own barrows to push.



It seems we may also need a "safe" societies programme with a heavy focus on alerting the populace to the importance of not bullying each other over perceived transgressions of political correctness.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact is that people can be bullied for numerous reasons; being tall, short, fat, thin, wearing glasses, having a learning disability, having poor parents you name it.
> 
> I don't need to "imagine" being any of these to know that bullying anyone is wrong. That is why "Safe Schools" is too narrow in just focussing on LGBTI. If students are just faced with this particular case they may take it out on other kids who have other "differences".
> 
> Safe Schools should be broadly based not narrow focussed as it is now, which is the result of it being run by a few people with their own barrows to push.




As I have already showed you, out of all the groups, LGBT people have the highest rates of suicide, and the rates are especially high where they have been rejected by family etc.

Reducing the stigma would mean reducing the number of families that reject them and lower bullying etc.

If you could lower the rates of suicide down to the rates of suicide caused by bullying associated with wearing glasses or being short, it would be a good thing.



> people can be bullied for numerous reasons; being tall, short, fat, thin, wearing glasses, having a learning disability, having poor parents you name it.




you saying that, reminds me a bit of this


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2017)

Value Collector said:


> As I have already showed you, out of all the groups, LGBT people have the highest rates of suicide, and the rates are especially high where they have been rejected by family etc.




10% of 2% LGBTI may be a lot less than 1% of 20% of other causes. We need to know the overall numbers in order to make sense of your argument.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> I am actually starting to lose empathy because of all this ****.
> 
> #### 'em.... anyone that wants to above their lifestyle choices down my throat,  whatever they are.
> 
> And I am using my vote to say so.




I don't think asking for equal rights is "shoving their lifestyle down your throat"


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 10% of 2% LGBTI may be a lot less than 1% of 20% of other causes. We need to know the overall numbers in order to make sense of your argument.




If you see a certain group that's in trouble, why can't you just help them? even if they are a minority.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If you see a certain group that's in trouble, why can't you just help them? even if they are a minority.




And ignore the majority who needs help as well ?


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And ignore the majority who needs help as well ?



no one said ignore the majority. we have over time focussed on many different social issues, So far over the last 100 years or so the lgbt issue have been ignored, I see no problem with shining a light on them for a while.


----------



## Tisme (1 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And ignore the majority who needs help as well ?




These are actual, not attention seeking, not for publicity, not attempted:

38.3/100k of 85 year and over men of commit suicide (women 6.4)
25.5/100k of men between 40 and 44 commit suicide (women 9.4)
14.3/100k of males between 15 and 19 commit suicide (females 5.6)

overall 74.7% of them are males. The age standard rate is 10.7/100k and of that 16.3/100k are males and 5.4/100k for females.

The question is how many homosexuals are there.. say 400,000? How many who actually suicided were homosexuals in a typical year?


----------



## basilio (1 September 2017)

The issue of the consequences of passing a Marriage Equality Bill has created much concern. 
Have you ever worried about the possibility your children might turn into birds as a result of this dangerous idea ?

* 'My child is a bird': another version  of Coalition for Marriage's no campaign ad – video *

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-coalition-for-marriages-no-campaign-ad-video


----------



## Tisme (1 September 2017)

A bit of a pattern:

4.6% of teenagers between 14 and 19 reckon they are homosexuals
6.5% of twenty somethings reckon the same thing
4.3% of thirty somethings have figured out they are still gay
2.8% are clinging to the cause when they are in their 40s
1.7% are left by the time they are in their 50s, residual recruiters?

Born with it eh? Must be contagious in the 20's and gradual immunity kicks in after that? 

Social conditioning means these actual figures are false by any definition, but heh


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> Social conditioning means these actual figures are false by any definition, but heh




Not necessarily.  _*If*_ homosexuality is learned, one would expect such a drop away in prevalence with age.  This would happen as a result of a natural insight into the sort of partners one attracts and how they have qualities of the same sex parent.  It may become clear that attraction is based upon unmet subconscious needs from childhood.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't think asking for equal rights is "shoving their lifestyle down your throat"



It is not a question of equal rights,  it is about changing legal definitions, alongside other cretinous leftist dystopian agendas.

And sorry, yes it is being shoved down our throat.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> These are actual, not attention seeking, not for publicity, not attempted:
> 
> 38.3/100k of 85 year and over men of commit suicide (women 6.4)
> 25.5/100k of men between 40 and 44 commit suicide (women 9.4)
> ...




We don't know, but I think you will find that the majority of suicides are those whose (hetero) marriages have broken down, farmers or businessmen who have gone bust or people with a mental illness in general. 

To say that suicide is primarily a gay thing prompted by bullying is to over simplify the situation to absurdity.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2017)

The loss of hope, the loss of situation,  unemployment, poverty, personal anguish,  dealing with old age,  dealing with illness, particular mental/social problems. Yep all part of the sadness of people ending their life.

The trauma/drama of dealing with disrespect and disgust because of ones sexuality is only one factor in the overall suicide rate. But if we choose as a society to not trash people because of their sexuality those people have a better life. 
What is is the downside of such an action ? Is it also possible that respect /understanding for those differences will extend to our  understanding and support of other stresses that people endure and improve their quality of life ?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2017)

basilio said:


> What is is the downside of such an action ?




The downside of letting radical homosexuals like Roz Ward getting into the vulnerable minds of 11 year olds is that they have their views distorted by people with a singular barrel to push that ignores all the other causes of potential bullying that may in fact pose a greater problem. 

By all means point out gender confusion as a factor in bullying , but there are many others as I've pointed out before, so let us not get lost in one forest and ignore the others.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2017)

basilio said:


> The loss of hope, the loss of situation,  unemployment, poverty, personal anguish,  dealing with old age,  dealing with illness, particular mental/social problems. Yep all part of the sadness of people ending their life.
> 
> The trauma/drama of dealing with disrespect and disgust because of ones sexuality is only one factor in the overall suicide rate. But if we choose as a society to not trash people because of their sexuality those people have a better life.
> What is is the downside of such an action ? Is it also possible that respect /understanding for those differences will extend to our  understanding and support of other stresses that people endure and improve their quality of life ?



A pathetic piece of paper isn't going to stop anyone trashing anyone basilio.

....and I wonder if anyone else noticed the astonishing irony/contradiction /hypocrisy in your position here.

As far as suicide is concerned,  did you know veterinarians have four times the suicide rate of the general population,  most of those in large animal practice... so if figures were isolated to large animal practitioners, the stats would be even more horrific.

In my own profession,  stats are not kept,  but anecdotally the numbers are substantively higher.... and nary a gay man to be seen.

So if I may stray of topic to make a point,  what are you lefty luvvies gonna do for us?? Or doesn't that fit in your poisonous agenda?


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> A bit of a pattern:
> 
> 4.6% of teenagers between 14 and 19 reckon they are homosexuals
> 6.5% of twenty somethings reckon the same thing
> ...




There has probably always been the same percentage of gays, how ever now they can just live more openly, rather than pretend to be straight and live in love less relationships.

It's getting a lot easier for a teen to admit he is gay now than it was 50 years ago, I expect a large number of gays that are in their 50's and 60's now and did live as heterosexual, will just maintain the image for the wife and kids, and throw off the numbers.


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> ....and I wonder if anyone else noticed the astonishing irony/contradiction /hypocrisy in your position here.
> 
> As far as suicide is concerned,  did you know veterinarians have four times the suicide rate of the general population,  most of those in large animal practice... so if figures were isolated to large animal practitioners, the stats would be even more horrific.




Are you against helping them?

There is nothing saying we can't assist people in multiple areas, but ignoring the specific problems of any group isn't going to help.

For example suicide is a huge problem among returned soldiers, these are my brothers, but I am not going to say we need to stop trying to help gays ( or veterinarians) we can focus on more than one group at once, just because we are doing certain things to help reduce the stigma associated with being LGBT doesn't mean we suddenly stop helping soldiers with ptsd or any other group.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2017)

That is a very long and tenuous bow to say a stupid piece of paper will stop them topping themself.... they already have 99% of that via civil union. 

Puleeeze, if we want to help in that regard, we should be going down a completely different path.


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Not necessarily.  _*If*_ homosexuality is learned, one would expect such a drop away in prevalence with age.  This would happen as a result of a natural insight into the sort of partners one attracts and how they have qualities of the same sex parent.  It may become clear that attraction is based upon unmet subconscious needs from childhood.




I don't know why there is a pattern and I'm sure a polarised argument could be made, but I can say I socialise with three relevant women who, oddly, had seven year lesbian relationships and all three lost interest and ended up with men. They are every open about their love lifes, but in real life I'm a great listener and I don't judge ... that is what forums and the social sheriffs who inhabit them are for LOL .

I have an obviously bent niece who, of her own choosing, manages to hide her relationships from the family and started off dating boys.

Counter balancing that I remember back in 1989 and a gruff middle aged consulting engineer who seemed to hate everyone and everyone hated him in Brisbane and beyond; I'm one of those people who's too dosey to do the crowd bidding.  He invited me to his flat just around the corner from the office to discuss some leading edge technology he needed for a an island development. We had a couple of long necks, had some laughs and that was that, until about four months later and he turned up my offices and he looked worried. His soul mate had gone to Sydney and he was heartbroken. My advice was to follow him and he did and he thanked me later for being a confidante.

Often one to attend parties in New Farm where I have real estate, and being New Farm is like camp central, I actually do associate with many queers and sisters and yes we are happy social friends, which is why I like to ask how it is that so many people on the YES campaign maintain they have "friends" who are gay, yet the odds don't stack up. If they did have so many friends who are gay, how come they don't admit that many of them don't give a fig about marriage rights and openly admit to a preference of promiscuity compared to monogamy.

My concern with social conditioning is why so many people who obviously have no real insight into the sisters and brothers scene, are so eager to bang the drum. As a marketing tragic, I recognise the various methods being used to develop brand hysteria, but I am in awe that brand fatigue hasn't kicked in yet.... which I suppose is because there are a lot of suppressed protesters looking for a cause


----------



## basilio (2 September 2017)

Who said marriage was compulsory Tisme ? Who says many gays arn't sexually active  ( as are many non gays ) ?  I wouldn't.  
I'd also agree that on the whole gay people are more sexually active than straight people. 
That has zilch to do with allowing gay people who wish get married to get married. They want to make a public long term committment to their partner. Fine. Other people don't. Also fine.

I can recognise your cynicism as a marketing tragic. Perhaps on this issue it is a simpler case of many people recognising that all consenting adults  in civil society should have the opportunity to be married if they wish. In the past particular religious and social conventions wouldn't accept such an idea. But times have changed
_____________________________________

*The issue of suicide in our community. *Anyone heard of Beyond Blue ? Life line ?  Mens Sheds ? Then there are a score of  particular organistion that focus on youth, older people, retruned soldiers,  men, women. As far as the professions go I understand dentists, doctors,  *psychiatrists* are also over represented in suicide stats.

So what is the problem with recognising that LGBTI people need and deserve support ?


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> That is a very long and tenuous bow to say a stupid piece of paper will stop them topping themself.... they already have 99% of that via civil union.
> 
> Puleeeze, if we want to help in that regard, we should be going down a completely different path.




The conversation about suicide rates started because Rumpole brought up the safe schools program, I wasn't just commenting on marriage rights.

But yes, equal marriage rights is part of the bigger picture to help reduce the stigma, and get society to accept these relationships for what they are, as I have said before gay marriages already exist, its just about getting the government to recognise them.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (3 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> My concern with social conditioning is why so many people who obviously have no real insight into the sisters and brothers scene, are so eager to bang the drum.




Interesting post thanks.

I can answer this part.  These drum-bangers are people who want to feel that their own particular issues and insecurities (whatever they might be) will be accepted in the community.  It belies low self-esteem.  Acceptance is so important in life, isn't it?   I think it's good to promote it.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 September 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Acceptance is so important in life, isn't it?   I think it's good to promote it.



Rejection is a part of life which shapes who we are in many ways. The reality (via observation & experience) is people do not accept each other for many reasons. Tossing a tantrum through to being violent with someone for being rejected leads to further rejection, restriction and conflict. Sooner or later we learn to accept other people don't want us personally or our goods and services and we move on. Some people believe persistence will overcome rejection and waste many years in attempts to sway individuals and groups into accepting them. Yes handling rejection is something we all do in different ways when it is simply best to accept it and move on.


----------



## Tisme (4 September 2017)

Pyne and Birmingham into "oriface" politics:



> Indeed, it appears that Australia is entering into a Brave New LGBTI World dominated by orifice politics, courtesy of a federal Coalition government so desperate to suck up to the progressivist elites that it is happy to sacrifice the physical and mental health of a generation of young Australians.






> Despite her power and influence, Ward’s academic qualifications are very basic. She doesn’t possess a doctorate or any qualifications in medicine, but holds only a *BA (Hons), and an MA in Gender Studies *from the University of Sussex in the UK.





https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/dumb-sodomy-cash/


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> *I'm thinking she*'s the result of a dalliance between Pyne and Birmingham



Gender neutral Tisme! You defiant little anti-communist purveyor of all things interesting.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 September 2017)

On the subject of youth suicide, I heard of a school in Melbourne who had a number of students who actually took their own lives because they couldn't achieve the academic results that their parents wanted.

I wonder where there this sort of thing is discussed in the "Safe Schools" program ?


----------



## Tisme (4 September 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Gender neutral Tisme! You defiant little anti-communist purveyor of all things interesting.






I hate Illinois Nazis almost as much as Bolsheviks, I do.


----------



## Tisme (4 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> On the subject of youth suicide, I heard of a school in Melbourne who had a number of students who actually took their own lives because they couldn't achieve the academic results that their parents wanted.
> 
> I wonder where there this sort of thing is discussed in the "Safe Schools" program ?





Was it because they were gay and the principal wouldn't let them marry? Cos if it's gay related it's a serious issue that needs a whole statewide reeducation program to punish the straight students of their heartless ambivalence.


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 September 2017)

> The founder and coordinator of the Safe Schools Coalition Australia (SSCA) is an avowed Marxist who lives in a fantasy world where communism supports free love and LGBTI lifestyles. The ascension of Roz Ward to the position of sexuality commissar for Australian schools is therefore an unforgivable indictment of federal and state governments.



Two points to a trend line. Yassmin (Islam is the most feminist religion) Abdel-Magied promotion to speaker of all that is soothing and now Roz (I don't have a homosexual agenda) Ward calling shots on the education of Australian children.

note - the article is from March 2016..


----------



## SirRumpole (4 September 2017)

Roz Ward might like to go and live in Russia. I don't think Vlad likes homosexuals very much.


----------



## Tisme (4 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Roz Ward might like to go and live in Russia. I don't think Vlad likes homosexuals very much.




or unions


----------



## basilio (4 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> On the subject of youth suicide, I heard of a school in Melbourne who had a number of students who actually took their own lives because they couldn't achieve the academic results that their parents wanted.
> 
> I wonder where there this sort of thing is discussed in the "Safe Schools" program ?




I know of at least one top Melborne private school that has around one suicide a yearat VCE levels related to academic  presssure largely from the school and, I assume, parents as well. It would be interesting to see what the effects of the very high expectations are on the rest of the school community.

Re. whether this would be discussed in the "Safe Schools" program. Couple of obvious responses.

1) The Safe School program was established to open the conversation about non straight sexuality and "different "children. It's intention is to reduce bullying and disrespect for students who don't fit the mold. 
2) Which top achieving Private Schools want to open a public conversation on the consequences of their drive to achieve the best academic results ?  Who wants to open that can of worms. ?

On the topic of how Private Schools keep up the excellent  results check out this story. I can guarantee the same process happens in Melbourne schools.  It's one of dirtiest secrets of the Private school system. Certainly a very effective way of social engineering.

* Schools around England ejecting 'underperforming' sixth-formers *
Testimony from parents and students suggests St Olave’s grammar school is just one of many institutions ‘weeding out’ students




St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington. Photograph: Gareth Fuller/PA


Sally Weale and Carmen Fishwick

Wednesday 30 August 2017 19.58 BST   First published on Wednesday 30 August 2017 13.08 BST

Dozens of parents and pupils have contacted the Guardian complaining that schools in different areas of the country are ejecting sixth form students half way through their two-year A-level course after failing to achieve sufficiently high grades.

Some of the schools identified are in areas where there are a high number of grammar schools, including Kent, Buckinghamshire and Lincolnshire, though non-selective schools elsewhere are also implicated.

The testimony from parents and students suggests the practice is widespread, and is having a detrimental effect on students. One student who lost their sixth form place last year described the “trauma and a feeling of not being good enough from being kicked out of your own school”.

They were responding to a Guardian callout following exclusive revelations that a leading state grammar school, St Olave’s in Orpington in the London borough of Bromley, is facing legal action from parents after their children were told their places were being withdrawn after they failed to get sufficiently good grades at the end of year 12.

Following the Guardian’s reports, MPs across the political spectrum expressed concern about the practice and its impact on students. Orpington’s Conservative MP, Jo Johnson, said he had raised the issue with the education minister as well as the head of St Olave’s.

“St Olave’s is a highly selective school and I obviously have no problem with having a GCSE entry requirement for a sixth form – but once pupils are in on that basis, it is surely for the school to push them to do well, not to throw them out (unless their behaviour is bad).

*In their words: a former St Olaves’ student, who asked to remain anonymous*
_ 
“I didn’t get the minimum three Bs. They told me to speak to the assistant head. At that point I was worrying. They told me I’d have to sign a contract if I wanted to be able to continue into year 13. The contract said that the school would have the right to instantly kick me out at any point in year 13 if my performance dropped below a B grade, and I’d be closely monitored.


“I left in tears, partly because of the grades and partly due to the utter lack of humanity and sympathy that was shown to me. Mental health wise, there’s so much stress on people, you can see it in some people’s faces. They’re weighed down. Some of the teachers do try to sympathise.


“No wonder the school is near the top of the league tables. The headmaster needs to realise that the school would be nothing without the pupils. If you only take in academically brilliant students then it’s obviously going to ensure your grades and stats are good. If a school takes you on, it’s their duty to take you through the years until the end no matter what your result.”_

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ack-ejection-of-underperforming-sixth-formers
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...berg-in-a-system-all-about-delivering-results
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...eak-students-are-treated-as-collateral-damage


----------



## SirRumpole (4 September 2017)

basilio said:


> Schools around England ejecting 'underperforming' sixth-formers




Indeed, it's well known that a lot of top private schools in the country adopt this sort of practise.

Can't have the riff raff dragging down the school's name can we ?


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder where there this sort of thing is discussed in the "Safe Schools" program ?



According to the website they are focused on LGBTI issues. The focus for "Safer Schools" must include all facets of psychological/physical bullying and mental health issues.


----------



## Tisme (4 September 2017)

basilio said:


> I know of at least one top Melborne private school that has around one suicide a yearat VCE levels related to academic  presssure largely from the school and, I assume, parents as well. It would be interesting to see what the effects of the very high expectations are on the rest of the school community.
> 
> Re. whether this would be discussed in the "Safe Schools" program. Couple of obvious responses.
> 
> ...




The public high school principals do that here in Queensland to keep the OP levels up and thus funding and prestige. Turn 17 and out on the street without even a high school certificate = generational social security and poverty


----------



## basilio (6 September 2017)

* At last men are joining our conversation about toxic masculinity *
Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett
Yes, the likes of Chris Hemmings and Robert Webb are now seeing the truth of what feminists have been saying for decades. But it’s a relief to have them onside

 
In Be A Man, Chris Hemmings deconstructs the strict gender roles that men are expected to inhabit. Photograph: Alamy

*Shares*
190
 
* Comments*
 1,191 
Contact author

 
@rhiannonlucyc

Wednesday 6 September 2017 09.00 BST   Last modified on Wednesday 6 September 2017 12.30 BST

Chris Hemmings used to be a lad. He was, all in all, the sort of lad that I – and no doubt many other young women – would have avoided at university. We know the type well. Part of a rugby club that rejoiced in the objectification and humiliation of women, these lads would throw full pints in their female classmates’ faces, or choose them as victims for their game of “hot leg” (where you piss down a girl’s leg as she is dancing with you, holding on to her so she cannot move away, as your friends leer and hers, presumably, stand horrified and powerless). Hemmings never did “hot leg” himself but he did, he says, egg on others. When he looks back on those years, he is disgusted with himself.

Hemmings was on the frontline of what the media called “lad culture”. Now he has written a book, Be a Man, about toxic masculinity, deconstructing and lamenting the strict gender roles that men are expected to inhabit – roles that, largely, seem to make them unhappy. It comes in the wake of books on manhood by Robert Webb and Grayson Perry. Feminists should be pleased, though no doubt some are bemused and irritated that this – the idea that patriarchy is bad for all of us – is what they have been saying for decades: but instead of praise they have received rape and death threats.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-toxic-masculinity-chris-hemmings-robert-webb


----------



## Tisme (7 September 2017)

Familiar method/style of open discussion?


----------



## Logique (7 September 2017)

Trust a Greens MP to come up with this in NSW.

Lie through your teeth at the interview about being pregnant, then run to the Anti-Discrimination board when you're found it!

This is the new gender equality, Greens style.







> http://www.smh.com.au/business/work...ination-during-pregnancy-20170906-gybu6t.html
> A legal exemption that allows employers to refuse to hire someone *who knew they were pregnant* when they applied for the job is being *targeted for abolition*.
> 
> Two subsections in the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 allow employers to dismiss women who knew they were pregnant when they applied for a job.
> ...


----------



## basilio (7 September 2017)

What does it mean "To be a Man ?" or "To be a Woman" ? I posted the article on Chris Hemmings discussing his shame at his behaviour towards women when he was a young rubgy player. Clemintine Ford takes this conversation further. 

Food for thought.

* Clementine Ford: Why is challenging gender norms still seen as a radical act? *






*Clementine Ford*
51 reading now
 Show comments
If you weren't convinced of the mass social compulsion to assign gender to things before you had children, you should certainly be aware of it after they enter your life. From the moment a pregnancy is announced, the question of whether the still-forming fetus is a girl or a boy is often foremost in people's minds.

Parents who choose to reveal the sex of their baby can be assured of a swag of gifts that accord with ideas of boyhood and girlhood. The former is dominated by khaki, navy blue and rich red, with cars, trucks and other modes of transportation often acting as motifs. The latter invites splashes of pink and purple, this time with emblems of butterflies, fairies and princesses.

.....Primary school students on the Isle of Wight were recently the subject of a BBC documentary exploring the benefits of making a classroom gender neutral. The class of 23 seven-year-olds spent a term in a gender neutral environment, with statements like "boys are caring" and "girls are strong" hung on the wall alongside statements affirming that all students "can be anything".

One teacher was asked to retire his use of the terms "sweet pea" for girls and "mate" for boys, and noted his own personal development following the conclusion of the experiment. That same teacher now believes "gender neutrality is something we need to look at as a country and somehow get into the curriculum".

The experiment's architect, Dr Javid Abdelmoneim, says it is about "giving children a full development so they can achieve absolutely anything they want.

"I'd challenge any sane and sensible adult to say we don't want that."

And yet there are plenty of adults who maintain a weird kind of terror around gender expression in kids. A face painter recently went viral with a thread on Twitter as she outlined what she saw as a contributing cause of male violence in America. She recounted an interaction with a four-year-old boy who had asked for a butterfly to be painted on his face. His mother denied his request, insisting instead that he get something "for boys". The mother then turned to the boy's father, "a big guy in a jersey", and had him confirm that he didn't want his son having a butterfly on his face.

The boy's parents taught him that day to associate shame with anything considered feminine and to apply that shame to himself for wanting it. He ended up miserable, with a skull and crossbones in place of the butterfly he had wanted.

When I read stories about little boys who have their softness and love for beautiful things shamed out of them by parents ruled by their own fear, my heart breaks.

This is why it's so important to break down rigid learning around what gender is and isn't supposed to be. It's why the choice of clothing distributors (like Britain's John Lewis this week) to remove gender labels from their products is so important, and why we should also condemn the decision of schools such as Bendigo's Girton Grammar to teach their girl students how to walk in high heels to prepare them for "life after school".

Because what does it really mean, this insistence that we let "boys be boys" and "girls be girls"?

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/lif...ll-seen-as-a-radical-act-20170905-gyb6r7.html


----------



## basilio (7 September 2017)

For those who are interested in why people have joined The Greens and the type of society they envisage Senator Janet Rice maiden speech is a good read.

*First Speech in Parliament of Senator Janet Rice*

https://greensmps.org.au/articles/first-speech-parliament-senator-janet-rice


----------



## basilio (7 September 2017)

What could our society look like if children could be born in artificial wombs? We are getting very close to this situation.  This article and the book it is based on explores some implications.

* Artificial wombs could soon be a reality. What will this mean for women? *
Technology is well on the way to realising ectogenesis, improving premature baby survival and increasing fertility options. But it also has other, more frightening, implications.



The biobag artifical womb is intended to improve the survival rates of premature babies. Photograph: Jellyfish Pictures/Getty Images/Science Photo Library RM

*Shares*
3739
 
* Comments*
 514 

Helen Sedgwick

Monday 4 September 2017 16.53 BST   Last modified on Monday 4 September 2017 22.00 BST

We are approaching a biotechnological breakthrough. Ectogenesis, the invention of a complete external womb, could completely change the nature of human reproduction. In April this year, researchers at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia announced their development of an artificial womb. The “biobag” is intended to improve the survival rates of premature babies and is a significant step forward from conventional incubators. Their results show that lambs (at the equivalent of a premature human foetus of 22-24 weeks) are able to successfully grow in the biobag, with the oldest lamb now more than one year old.

Researchers at Cambridge University, meanwhile, have also kept a human embryo alive outside the body for 13 days using a mix of nutrients that mimic conditions in the womb. The embryo survived several days longer than previously observed and research only stopped because they were approaching the 14-day legal limit for the length of time an embryo can be kept in a lab. In other words, our ethics rather than our technology are now the limiting factor.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/04/artifical-womb-women-ectogenesis-baby-fertility


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2017)

basilio said:


> our ethics rather than our technology are now the limiting factor.




May the Almighty save us (if there is one).


----------



## Tisme (7 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> May the Almighty save us (if there is one).





I think someone better come up with one ..stat!


----------



## basilio (7 September 2017)

Talking about Social Engineeering let's have a look at how the behaviour of the elite in our society is formed and protected. And at the consequences of this socialisation.

* How shocking sexism becomes normal in 'elite' environments *
 


*Jane Gilmore*
 Follow on Twitter 

25 reading now
 Show comments

 facebook SHARE 
 twitter TWEET 
 email 
  

  

  


Anyone following the recent spate of stories about sexual harassment and exploitation of girls in Australia's elite schools and universities might find Tuesday's allegations of "a toxic culture of harassment and predatory behaviour" at Macquarie Group eerily familiar.

Up-skirting, "alpha-male culture", "predatory behaviour towards a female staff member" and stalking are among the claims made in a letter from lawyers planning a class action against the investment bank.


Allegations included a claim a former stockbroker cut off a woman's ponytail at the office.  Photo: Simone Becchetti/Stocksy
An ex-Macquarie staffer claimed a former stockbroker cut off a woman's ponytail at the office. "He put the hair on her desk, right in front of her. She was so shocked she didn't say anything," they said. Complaints were made but no action was taken.

The Macquarie Group told Fairfax Media that it takes all allegations of inappropriate behaviour very seriously and denied that any current staff members were involved in any of the allegations.

*Related Articles*

*Macquarie staff 'victims of upskirting, predatory behaviour'*
*A twisted version of masculinity breeds sexual abusers*
It's difficult to imagine a modern workplace where men could assault women and it's not just seen as normal behaviour, but a "funny story" to tell around the office. But perhaps looking at the path these men take to get to such positions might explain how it might happen

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/lif...al-in-elite-environments-20170905-gybky9.html


----------



## basilio (7 September 2017)

And social engineering again  in our elite private schools
*The epidemic of rape culture in schools can no longer be ignored *
*...*
A secret Facebook group known as 'Blokes Advice' was also recently closed after leaks from within revealed some users were, again, posting naked photographs of women without their consent – and in some cases, encouraging each other to bombard the victims with further harassment. Additionally, screenshots showed some members gleefully joking with each other about rape and paedophilia.


_     We are approaching a crisis point with the way masculinity is constructed and excused, particularly the  burgeoning kind that is formed in school playgrounds and the hallways of cyberspace._

 
When punished for this behaviour, these boys and men (and their supporters, of which there are sadly many) claim their actions were taken in good humour and not abuse. How dare they be accused of violence – these things are jokes. And besides, if those girls didn't want their photographs paraded around for men to laugh at and use to vilify them, they shouldn't have taken them in the first place.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/lif...can-no-longer-be-ignored-20160817-gquv53.html


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2017)

basilio said:


> It's difficult to imagine a modern workplace where men could assault women and it's not just seen as normal behaviour, but a "funny story" to tell around the office. But perhaps looking at the path these men take to get to such positions might explain how it might happen




Would be interesting to see a breakdown of abusers by all-male or co-ed schools.

I think it's a sexual deprivation factor that causes boys to fantasize rather than actually talking to girls from an early age.


----------



## satanoperca (7 September 2017)

basilio said:


> And besides, if those girls didn't want their photographs paraded around for men to laugh at and use to vilify them, they shouldn't have taken them in the first place.




This statement by the author I have great issues with, it is just not that simple. The word "girls" and not mature adults gives it away. 

The teenage years are hard to navigate for the best of people, we all made mistakes, blame is not the answer.

The real issue today is lack of accountability via the internet which provides in many cases to much anonymity.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Would be interesting to see a breakdown of abusers by all-male or co-ed schools.
> 
> I think it's a sexual deprivation factor that causes boys to fantasize rather than actually talking to girls from an early age.




Rumpole, you do overgeneralize.

I went to a Christian Brothers School and had quite a healthy sexual interaction with the local Convent school girls. Oh to be young again.

gg


----------



## Tisme (10 September 2017)

satanoperca said:


> This statement by the author I have great issues with, it is just not that simple. The word "girls" and not mature adults gives it away.
> 
> The teenage years are hard to navigate for the best of people, we all made mistakes, blame is not the answer.
> 
> The real issue today is lack of accountability via the internet which provides in many cases to much anonymity.




The argument those filth who gang raped a girl then cited Koran and "she was asking for it" because she wasn't wearing to to toe Arab wear is finding its way into mainstream oz culture.... another one for the Bolsheviks


----------



## Tisme (10 September 2017)

I wonder what social manipulation restraints are placed on auditors of social manipulation programs? The ABS is obviously constrained, even Facebook edits posts they deem contrary to the prevailing engineering, microsoft resists al govt interference of privacy .......


----------



## moXJO (11 September 2017)

Toxic masculinity, rape culture and the rest of the gender neutral crap is a long line of bs blame forced on young men.
Sweden is the perfect example of failure of enforcing gender neutral policy.

Young men are not happier being feminized. The fact clem ford and other feminists think they know what men think or feel,  along with lumping all men into the rapist mindset- speaks volumes.

Schools are failing young men and if anything, are causing sexism to become worse.

Lad culture doesn't just target women...  it targets everyone. And its not as prevalent as its made out to be. "Rape culture"  has been hysterically blasted out across the land as hardcore fact. Abuse and peoples entitlement mentality does not discriminate between either sex.

Feminist ignore the mental health of a lot of rapists and abusers. These guys are sick fcuks rather than toxic masculinity having anything to do with it. The same sick fcuks that rape those weaker in jail.
Want it to reduce? 
Then target $hit parenting. Ensure education and a decent environment.
 But na lets just blame men and do nothing but whinge about it.

Pushing 'toxic' white feminism from hate filled delusional social media saps- above fostering an equal rights mindset will only make it worse.
Respect for others wellbeing and rights will go further then the crap being preached from some of the 30 something yo white chicks on social media.

Women should have the same rights and treated with respect. But if anyone isn't up to the physical demands of a job then society shouldn't be weakened by set quotas or lower standards.


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2017)

Hmmm toxic masculinity. 

My profession is perhaps one of the few remaining bastions of masculinity.  It's got everything,  utes, tool fetish, bashing hot steel, intellectual rigour,  lots of scars, courage to get under a 700kg beast that that sometimes seems intemt on killing you,  mostly female clients.

A farrier is a man's man. 

Out of the hundreds of guys I've known over the years,  there have been exactly two who have toxic personalities. 

Chivalry and respect abounds in my world you liberal feminist imbeciles. The abberation is not the norm.


----------



## basilio (11 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> Chivalry and respect abounds in my world you liberal feminist imbeciles.



Spoken like a true gentleman .....


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2017)

basilio said:


> Spoken like a true gentleman .....



Okay basilio,  lets see you put your money where your mouth is.  I'm inviting you to travel with me for a week, meet my clients,  my wife,  my family,  to judge first hand my gentlemanliness.

Got the cajones?


----------



## basilio (11 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> Okay basilio, lets see you put your money where your mouth is. I'm inviting you to travel with me for a week, meet my clients, my wife, my family, to judge first hand my gentlemanliness.
> 
> Got the cajones?




Really!! ??
So gracious. So generous. So Wayne.

A magnificient open hearted offer to host a person he has never met and (almost) only ever trashed online delivered with a sneer and kick in the cajones.
_____________________________________
Sometimes it is possible to extend an olive branch Wayne. Just gotta make sure it doesn't look like a piece of 4x2 with a few nails sticking out. Defeats the purpose doesn't it ?


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2017)

My, such cynicism.

I in fact host people I've never met before all the time, other farriers, vets and sometimes interested owners, it is nothing out of ordinary and though you may choose not to believe it, the offer is genuine, if you want to take it up.


----------



## basilio (11 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> My, such cynicism.
> 
> I in fact host people I've never met before all the time, other farriers, vets and sometimes interested owners, it is nothing out of ordinary and though you may choose not to believe it, the offer is genuine, if you want to take it up.




I'm sure you do Wayne, I'm sure you do..

But  I doubt you would have couched your invitation to them in the same language as you used on a public forum to me. The dissonance is deafening.
A question of grace Wayne.


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2017)

LMAO bas

Much worse language than your tender ears could bear, but see,  in my world,  nobody is scouring communications,  desperately trying to find a way to be offended.


----------



## Macquack (11 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> My profession is perhaps one of the few remaining bastions of masculinity.  It's got everything,  utes, tool fetish, bashing hot steel, intellectual rigour,  lots of scars, courage to get under a 700kg beast that that sometimes seems intemt on killing you,  mostly female clients.
> 
> A farrier is a man's man.



I suppose if no one is going to give you a rap then you have to give yourself a rap.

No mention of beer. Where I come from, you have to drink tons of piss to be a man's man.

Yeah, and "utes" are just toy trucks.


----------



## wayneL (12 September 2017)

Macquack said:


> I suppose if no one is going to give you a rap then you have to give yourself a rap.
> 
> No mention of beer. Where I come from, you have to drink tons of piss to be a man's man.
> 
> Yeah, and "utes" are just toy trucks.



I'm partial to the occasional Guinness, but tonnes of piss a great way to turn yourself into a dithering old fool with cirrhosis. A full size b-double would be cool Macquacker.... God knows Id be able to carry even more gear around. 

But the pragmatic reality is that's is a bit large to back down the breezeway of a barn.... and who wants to pay that much rego unnecessarily?


----------



## orr (12 September 2017)

Social Engineering... you can, if stretched,  draw a crooked line to 'My one's bigger than your one' I 'spose'.

Keep going _girls_, this is gold...
As an observation, It's noted that the above banter coincides with the commencement of the 'Footy' finals. Social Manipulation?


----------



## Tisme (12 September 2017)

Looks like the machines are going to sort us into groups, now that we aren't allowed to go with our own inbuilt identikit systems :


Artificial intelligence can accurately guess whether people are gay or straight based on photos of their faces, according to new research suggesting that machines can have significantly better “gaydar” than humans.

The study from Stanford University – which found that a computer algorithm could correctly distinguish between gay and straight men 81 per cent of the time, and 74 per cent for women – has raised questions about the biological origins of sexual orientation........

..........
*Grooming styles*
The research found that gay men and women tended to have “gender-atypical” features, expressions and “grooming styles”, essentially meaning gay men appeared more feminine and visa versa. The data also identified certain trends, including that gay men had narrower jaws, longer noses and larger foreheads than straight men, and that gay women had larger jaws and smaller foreheads compared to straight women...................







https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...hoto-whether-you-re-gay-or-straight-1.3214062

and the response:

http://mashable.com/2017/09/11/artificial-intelligence-ai-lgbtq-gay-straight/#SACB6qlDvOqo


----------



## Logique (12 September 2017)

orr said:


> Social Engineering... you can, if stretched,  draw a crooked line to 'My one's bigger than your one' I 'spose'.
> Keep going _girls_, this is gold...
> As an observation, It's noted that the above *banter coincides with the commencement of the* '*Footy*' *finals*. Social Manipulation?



I heard that!


----------



## Tisme (13 September 2017)

Govt and opposition introducing legislation to control the debate about SSM. Censorship of voice has managed to regain most of it's former self pre the social revolution.

Of course it's preposterous to think that people's opinions won't get an airing via social media, texts, groups, etc. Getup and Safe Schools will be immune.


----------



## basilio (17 September 2017)

Well any Government legislation certainly won't affect the quality and content of discussion on ASF.

We have already well proved that the SSM marriage survey has absolutely FA to do with SSM.  Rather it is all about the the takeover of Western Civilisation by the forces of Darkness, Abnormality and improper Social Engineering.
And given that is the *absolute, certain fact* of the matter any other arguments about equality or acceptance, are simply Trojan Horse arguments that should be rejected as totally specious....

After all why bother with facts and reality when a decent scare campaign is so much more effective ??


----------



## SirRumpole (17 September 2017)

basilio said:


> And given that is the *absolute, certain fact* of the matter any other arguments about equality or acceptance, are simply Trojan Horse arguments that should be rejected as totally specious....




Quite right.

All the No voters should be hate f***ed untill they change their ways.


----------



## Tisme (17 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite right.
> 
> All the No voters should be hate f***ed untill they change their ways.





It's 2017...aparrently that's a magic pudding number when the past is to be despised.


----------



## wayneL (18 September 2017)

basilio said:


> Well any Government legislation certainly won't affect the quality and content of discussion on ASF.
> 
> We have already well proved that the SSM marriage survey has absolutely FA to do with SSM.  Rather it is all about the the takeover of Western Civilisation by the forces of Darkness, Abnormality and improper Social Engineering.
> And given that is the *absolute, certain fact* of the matter any other arguments about equality or acceptance, are simply Trojan Horse arguments that should be rejected as totally specious....
> ...



Waaaaaah nobody wants to agree with me...


----------



## Tisme (18 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite right.
> 
> All the No voters should be hate f***ed untill they change their ways.





Which is a really hard ask, because some have a strong innate survival of the species and social codec. It's those people who are the reason we are the dominant species and genetically they cannot betray their inbuilt programming. They are largely immune to abherant bahavioural programming.

Every tribe has it's glue class, plastic class and solvent class. Leadership glue class has always been the elite few who aren't disparaged by the weak who would rather form nannyman groups rather defend the tribe....  you know .... traitors of the species.


----------



## basilio (18 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> Every tribe has it's glue class, plastic class and solvent class. Leadership glue class has always been the elite few who aren't disparaged by the weak who would rather form nannyman groups rather defend the tribe....  you know .... traitors of the species.




You mean like "gender traitors "?
Right on Tisme.  Tell it like is. 
I can remember the good old days when true leaders kept their position with the bull whip and rope. No nannies then...


----------



## Tisme (18 September 2017)

basilio said:


> You mean like "gender traitors "?
> Right on Tisme.  Tell it like is.
> I can remember the good old days when true leaders kept their position with the bull whip and rope. No nannies then...




No traitors to the human kind. The same ones who well sell their heritage and others to win an argument for winning the sake of an argument. It won't be me waking up in a pool of guilt when all the things we Australians wanted as different to the old world dross are given away in exchange for soothing hurt feelings.

Some people just don't value what they have and all too willing to give it away to be part of an obedient, ordered society


----------



## Tisme (22 September 2017)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...ed-in-anything-mla-says/8964916?sf115721639=1


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...ed-in-anything-mla-says/8964916?sf115721639=1




The forgotten generation.


----------



## Value Collector (22 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The forgotten generation.






> lack of government support for heterosexual, white men




Heterosexual white men are the government, So I guess they can only blame themselves.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Heterosexual white men are the government, So I guess they can only blame themselves.




Yeah that's true, but they get hen pecked by people like Tanya Plibersek and Penny Wong.


----------



## Tisme (22 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah that's true, but they get hen pecked by people like Tanya Plibersek and Penny Wong.




and the rest of the disproportionately high number of gay politicians with bums on seats


----------



## basilio (22 September 2017)

*What happens when you turn off the traffic lights at a busy intersection ?*
I thought this exercise in social conditioning is very interesting. How will people respond when they have to "negotiate" their way through a  busy intersection without traffic lights to determine who goes first. Well worth reading to the end.

Thoughtprovoking.

* What happens if you turn off the traffic lights? *
When Amsterdam removed signals from a busy junction, it made journeys faster and interactions more pleasant. Now the approach is being copied across the city






The pilot is part of a larger mobility strategy across Amsterdam to make more room for cyclists and pedestrians, which means limiting space for vehicles. Photograph: Patricia Toth McCormick/Getty Images

*Shares*
17
 
* Comments*
 9 

Meredith Glaser

Friday 22 September 2017 06.00 BST

On a foggy Monday morning in May 2016, 14 Amsterdam officials, engineers and civil servants gathered nervously at Alexanderplein – a busy intersection near the city centre with three tramlines – where many people were walking, driving, and, as in any Dutch city, riding bicycles. With a flip of a switch, the traffic controls were shut off for all transport modes, in all directions.

This live pilot project came about as a result of the rapid growth in cycling in some Amsterdam neighbourhoods. Nearly 70% of all city centre trips are by bicycle, and more space is needed on the bike networks. Traffic designers are deviating from standard design manuals to accommodate this need. Among the tactics being used are the removal of protective barriers, altering light phases, reducing vehicular speed limits and designating entire corridors as “bicycle streets”. Designers have created their own toolbox of solutions for other Dutch cities to use.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...at-happens-if-you-turn-off-the-traffic-lights


----------



## Tisme (24 September 2017)

So what % of the population uptake does it start being natural and normal just like the rest of the population?


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 September 2017)

Obviously she does what she wants with her body but to say "I'm pushing the beauty industry forward" is a fabrication. Her body is now obviously abnormal like this.


----------



## luutzu (24 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> So what % of the population uptake does it start being natural and normal just like the rest of the population?





People doesn't need to be "normal". They can be just as God made them, or as they made of themselves.

What they need is a law that doesn't permit some idiot discriminate or otherwise persecute them for it when they does no one any harm, just maybe offend (some) others their sense or good-taste, God's will or intolerable upbringing.


----------



## luutzu (24 September 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Obviously she does what she wants with her body but to say "I'm pushing the beauty industry forward" is a fabrication. Her body is now obviously abnormal.




Most, just about all, supermodels are abnormal. They're anorexic and as flat as a board. Hardly any man's man definition of beauty in a female.


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 September 2017)

luutzu said:


> Most, just about all, supermodels are abnormal. They're anorexic and as flat as a board. Hardly any man's man definition of beauty in a female.



Supermodels model clothes that are affordable by wealthier women. Not there to model their looks for men. Anyway most average bitches shop at KMart or Target unless their partner (note genderless ) is loaded.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> So what % of the population uptake does it start being natural and normal just like the rest of the population?





That is one stupid woman.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That is one stupid woman.




It also shows the stupidity of the US medical system that allows resources to be used in such a frivolous way.


----------



## luutzu (25 September 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Supermodels model clothes that are affordable by wealthier women. Not there to model their looks for men. Anyway most average bitches shop at KMart or Target unless their partner (note genderless ) is loaded.




Yea true. They actually are there to model clothes and not to turn men on. Which makes sense now that you pointed it out because them being skinny, flat and with that "you can't afford this" look only attracts rich a holes 

Overpriced clothes does feel good though. Sure beats the typical Kmart offerings. I guess the rich do have good taste sometimes.


----------



## pixel (25 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That is one stupid woman.



I find her looks creepy; but I can't say anything about her mental capacity. Assuming that. as an electrician, she earned enough money to spend $500k on changing her body, she must have some brains. You and I might choose a different hobby, but it's her choice. I know some people who pay that amount of money on membership in a club that lets them walk long distances, every so often hitting a little ball with a crooked stick. That isn't exactly my idea of an intelligent way to spend my day either.
So, each to their own.


----------



## Tisme (25 September 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Supermodels model clothes that are affordable by wealthier women. Not there to model their looks for men. Anyway most average bitches shop at KMart or Target unless their partner (note genderless ) is loaded.


----------



## Tisme (26 September 2017)

Here's a classic example of engineering in play. 

He's started with a personal bias conclusion and reverse engineered it disguised as some kind of King Solemn wisdom.

https://theconversation.com/attitud...3?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitterbutton


----------



## basilio (28 September 2017)

Social engineering from across the ditch.
Can we support a special cause ?


----------



## satanoperca (28 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> So what % of the population uptake does it start being natural and normal just like the rest of the population?





That is fantastic, got to love what people will do. Finally so social engineering at its best.

You have to love this stuff.

Lets see how big a man can get with steroids or far a female body can be transformed with surgery. 

Surely we can break 8 seconds - 100mtr sprint with a little help. Who cares about being natural.

Is anyone interested in investing in my new startup?

Chain of brothels, no humans, just sex robots, onto a winner.

Gay marriage is so per say!


----------



## luutzu (29 September 2017)

I guess this could be filed here.

I guess final version goes with "hits civilians" instead of "cause casualties". 

As in "A U.S. missile strike hit civilians". Did it kill them? Cause casualties?

We report, you decide.

I guess it couldn't have killed any civilians because of that "missile malfunction". 


I prefer Reuters because they often report straight from the news wire. BUt I guess it was a matter of time before commentaries and emphasis shape that wire.


----------



## Tisme (3 October 2017)

Some people don't deserve to be considered as intelligent. A victim of the tattoo mindless:

http://www.ntd.tv/2017/10/02/young-model-could-lose-vision-after-botched-eyeball-tattoo/


----------



## SirRumpole (3 October 2017)

Tisme said:


> Some people don't deserve to be considered as intelligent. A victim of the tattoo mindless:
> 
> http://www.ntd.tv/2017/10/02/young-model-could-lose-vision-after-botched-eyeball-tattoo/




What can one say ?


----------



## Tisme (3 October 2017)

Gender/diversity appointments versus merit didn't work out so well for Tracey Gaudry,

and maybe linked to that news:

Luke Hodge looks like he might get back into the game at the Lions


----------



## Tisme (6 October 2017)

So you can say you read it here first FMD!

https://theconversation.com/whose-b...es-can-shape-our-relationship-with-dogs-84273

You need to read the link, but:




> *Whose best friend? How gender and stereotypes can shape our relationship with dogs*
> October 3, 2017 5.41am AEDT
> *Authors*
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2017)

The debacle with Lisa Wilkinson and women's pay equity, is starting to show what a joke, our social engineering is.
Lisa should be paid the same as Karl:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...ine-bought-a-pr-disaster-for-$200,000/9058950
So she left to join channel 10.

Hughsey takes a pay cut because it isn't fair he gets paid more than his co host.
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...ate-langbroek-pay-parity-20171018-gz3ocm.html

Now Lisa is apparently on more money than her co host.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...y/news-story/c9ac58a1eb91d2455cb8449afec265fc

We really have lost the plot, Political Correctness out of control.


----------



## wayneL (19 October 2017)

Nineteeneightyfour, though late, has finally arrived.


----------



## Boggo (19 October 2017)

sptrawler said:


> We really have lost the plot, Political Correctness out of control.




An urban park in autumn. Mist, leaves, squirrels. Two young dogs sit talking at a remove from their owners. One of them is squatting over a puddle.
“You probably think I’m doing a wee,” says one.
“I wasn’t presuming to make a judgment,” says the other.
“Well I’m not,” says the first. “I
am steaming my froo-froo with rainwater to promote pudendal health.”
“Well, you knock yourself out.”
“I read about it on Goop when I was hunting for a vitamin supplement that will help me to get over this terrible listlessness I’ve been feeling ever since the referendum.”

“SQUIRREL!” shouts the other dog suddenly, leaping up, pointing, panting.
“And?” says the snowflake dog.
“It’s a freaking squirrel! Let’s get it!”
“I don’t eat red meat any more. I find that a chargrilled aubergine, peeled and mashed with tahini, makes for a more than adequate “mock-squirrel”. And if you drizzle a little linseed oil over the top, for the correct balance of Omega three and six fatty acids, combined with a regular programme of cardiovascular . . .”
“Nobody’s going to eat it, you clown. We’re just going to scare the bejesus out of it, like always.”

“That squirrel has as much right to enjoy this park as the rest of us.”
“You what?”
“Some of my best friends are squirrels.”
“No they’re not.”
“True, but I wish they were. Then people could see how open-minded and progressive I am. I’d even be cool with it if my daughter went out with a squirrel. In fact, I’d like to go out with a squirrel myself. I’m hoping to meet one at yoga.”

One of the humans whistles loudly and shouts, “Rex!”. Neither dog moves.
“You off then?” says the old dog.
“No,” says snowflake dog. “I don’t approve of gender-determinant names. I refuse to be sexually pigeon-holed. How do they know I’m a boy?”
“From your massive dangly knackers and horrid, red, stubby penis?”
“That’s just biology. Gender is a social construct.”
“What if they called you Regina?”
“No good. They need to recognise my right not to be defined at all. For my gender, like my sexuality, is subjective and fluid.”
“You’re a genderqueer dog?”
“Yes.”

“Woof!”
“How dare you?”
“I just said, ‘woof’.”
“Which is a traditional expression of patriarchal lust and disrespect.”
“I’m a dog. ‘Woof!’ is just what I say.”
“Find some other way to say it.”
“Another way to say ‘woof’?”
“This is my safe space.”
“It’s a park.”

“It’s a relic of empire, is what it is. These were hunting grounds that were owned by a king, not democratically elected, where dogs were worked, unpaid, in dreadful conditions, and to the great harm and impoverishment of other animals. It’s an elitist symbol which needs to be torn down and . . .”
One of the humans throws a stick. The dogs regard it. They do not move.
“You not going after it, then?”

“You heard what I said: this whole park is a colonial throwback. I come here to poo and stretch my legs but I assert my right not to be governed by outmoded rules and conventions which are quite out of touch with modern thinking.”
“He’s actually shouting ‘fetch, Rex’ now. What are you going to do about that?

“I am going to record it on my snoutcam is what I am going to do. And use it as evidence of bullying in the workplace. We millennials will not be pushed around.”
“Millennial? You’re only four.”
“Yes, but in dog years that’s 28, which means I was born in 1989; slap on the demographic.”
“But you weren’t, you were born in 2013.”
“Don’t you dare impose your phallocentric numerical system on my right to be who I am.”

“I’m going to get that stick.”
“I’m going to get a tattoo. Of a weepy face emoji.”
“See you around.”
“I hate Donald Trump.”

The older dog trots off to pick up the stick and delivers it to the humans. The younger dog gets on a bicycle and heads off for a coffee and a squiz at The New Statesman before his reiki class.


----------



## IFocus (19 October 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The debacle with Lisa Wilkinson and women's pay equity, is starting to show what a joke, our social engineering is.
> Lisa should be paid the same as Karl:
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...ine-bought-a-pr-disaster-for-$200,000/9058950
> So she left to join channel 10.
> ...





It's been downhill ever since they got the vote, stats show women are ridiculously overpaid.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2017)

IFocus said:


> It's been downhill ever since they got the vote, stats show women are ridiculously overpaid.



Is that right, I never knew that. By the way, good to see you back.


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The debacle with Lisa Wilkinson and women's pay equity, is starting to show what a joke, our social engineering is.
> Lisa should be paid the same as Karl:
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...ine-bought-a-pr-disaster-for-$200,000/9058950
> So she left to join channel 10.
> ...





Does Lisa really think she is the same drawcard as Karl?  I don't think so and I'm not drawn to either of them


----------



## Macquack (20 October 2017)

Tisme said:


> Does Lisa really think she is the same drawcard as Karl?  I don't think so and I'm not drawn to either of them



Karlos is not a drawcard, he just has friends in high places.

When Karl separated from his wife, and was living on the streets, he moved into one of Jamie Packer's spare penthouse apartments. Just shows how much of a tight arse he is. Multi-million dollar salary and he had to freeload.


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2017)




----------



## Tisme (1 November 2017)

I think this bloke is trying to engineer too:


----------



## Tisme (1 November 2017)

Just saying it as it is in nature: 

http://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_notecards/chapter_5.html

With early adolescence, 8-12 years of age in males and 8-10 years of age in females, chimpanzees begin to show significant differences in their behavior. Males spend more time with adult males patrolling the perimeters of their home territory, to detect and pursue chimpanzees of other communities. Females remain close to their mothers and begin to show adolescent swellings that signal the reproductive status of the female to males. Young females learn to be mothers by watching their mother and helping her with younger siblings.

At 13-15 years of age, late adolescent male chimpanzees spend most of their time with adult males and females in estrus (sexually receptive), remaining peripheral to the main body of the community. During this period of time, young males attain dominance over all females. Late adolescent chimpanzees, 11-13 or 14 years of age, begins with the onset of estrus cycles and adolescent sterility and ends with females being able to successfully reproduce. Consortships, the distancing of a male and female from the group for sexual privileges, first occur at this time. Some females transfer to another community for a brief period of time, and reproduce with males in that community. Returning females are often pregnant or carrying an infant.

Chimpanzees are mature at 16-20 years of age. Old age begins at 33 years of age in the wild. We now know wild chimpanzees live to be much older than first thought. Wild chimpanzees may live to be 40 or 50 years old or more.


----------



## Tisme (2 November 2017)

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/...933-44935886-34507660ad98fd6f64c9e187a7bb0a08




> President Donald Trump slammed Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., early Wednesday for his role in launching the program that reportedly allowed an extremist onto American soil.
> 
> Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov, 29, a green card holder from Uzbekistan, mowed down pedestrians and bicyclists in a rented truck Tuesday afternoon in lower Manhattan before crashing into a school bus. He then got out of the vehicle brandishing imitation firearms and shouting “Allahu akbar.”
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2017)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/uluru-a-history-of-disrespect-atop-the-rock/9107750

Well it will be certainly interesting, to see how it affects tourism, if at all.


----------



## Value Collector (3 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/uluru-a-history-of-disrespect-atop-the-rock/9107750
> 
> Well it will be certainly interesting, to see how it affects tourism, if at all.




Looks like I will have to get there before OCT 2019, I have always wanted to climb Uluru, So I will have to plan a trip Sooner rather than Later.


----------



## sptrawler (3 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Looks like I will have to get there before OCT 2019, I have always wanted to climb Uluru, So I will have to plan a trip Sooner rather than Later.



Yes it is definitely worth the effort. The view of the Olgas and Mt Connor are amazing.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/uluru-a-history-of-disrespect-atop-the-rock/9107750
> 
> Well it will be certainly interesting, to see how it affects tourism, if at all.




Some people will still have their hands out while cutting down on the cash supply.


----------



## qldfrog (3 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Yes it is definitely worth the effort. The view of the Olgas and Mt Connor are amazing.



I climbed the rock and it was an amazing sight. I would not bother going there if not for climbing; the Olgas are better and when I was there Mt Connor was an unexpected great amazing sight indeed
I was young and foolish.I will push my son to go ASAP and climb Ayers Rock while he can


----------



## Tisme (22 November 2017)

https://www.memecenter.com/fun/7195...will-identify-california-as-the-retarded-land


----------



## Tisme (23 November 2017)

Here's another organisation to watch.

My bet is that taxpayer dollars support this programming too.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2017)

Tisme said:


> Here's another organisation to watch.
> 
> My bet is that taxpayer dollars support this programming too.




Link ?


----------



## Tisme (23 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Link ?



http://thestellaprize.com.au/schools/


----------



## luutzu (23 November 2017)

Brandis had been putting our tax dollars to good use fighting hate groups like the Juice Media because... It's "not genuine satire"? 

I guess he has a point though. Watching gov't policies speeches versus actual policies is genuine satire.


----------



## Tisme (24 November 2017)

Just putting this here in anticipation:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...e/news-story/57135dcf199ce2882608cdbf956453db



> FAIRYTALES could be at risk in public schools from moves to degrade the much-loved stories for gender bias.
> 
> Preschool books and toys could also be audited to determine whether they promote gender stereotypes, under a Victorian government plan to address family violence.
> 
> ...


----------



## basilio (24 November 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://thestellaprize.com.au/schools/




Here is the Board of Stella Prize.  
http://thestellaprize.com.au/about/board-staff/


----------



## basilio (24 November 2017)

Perhaps it worth looking at Curriculum developments with some sense of objectivity rather than anything Andrew Bolt offers.

A bit more about the _Resilience, Rights and Respectful Relationships_ program now being rolled out in response to the Royal Commission on Family Violence findings on reducing family violence.

https://theconversation.com/respect...tion-isnt-about-activating-a-gender-war-67296


----------



## Tisme (24 November 2017)




----------



## Wysiwyg (28 November 2017)

Telstra boss telling the crowd data collection and analysis will become more so.
Yesterday I tried to view a website for gifts and I could not get past a questionaire on my likes and dislikes. After that block I wanted to tell them that I look for what I want, not you (or algorithm) offering me what you think I want. This in your face, in your life stuff has no future if online shoppers and mobile device users reject it. Reject the monitoring, don't answer questions, switch off your device location.


----------



## Tisme (3 December 2017)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/502532d05aa769bb6960db5092668ea2


Here's one for our apologists and engineers ..... a conundrum for them



> *Fear not, conservatives, tell it like it is*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2017)

Here's another one, where children are given no boundaries, or penalties.
Where you can do what you like, because it is everyone else's fault, where there is no fault laid on the perpetrators.
Can't wait to see how the do gooders, will reign in this sort of behaviour, nothing will happen until it starts happening in Canberra.
But it won't happen there, because it is a Company town, and the family would be made to leave.IMO

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/baby...ki-party-spirals-out-of-control-ng-b88679306z

I know I'm being hard and the kids, they didn't mean it, jeez I'm sorry for saying anything. 
My Bad.


----------



## Tisme (4 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Here's another one, where children are given no boundaries, or penalties.
> Where you can do what you like, because it is everyone else's fault, where there is no fault laid on the perpetrators.
> Can't wait to see how the do gooders, will reign in this sort of behaviour, nothing will happen until it starts happening in Canberra.
> But it won't happen there, because it is a Company town, and the family would be made to leave.IMO
> ...




By looks of it they would also be shielded from discipline because of ethnicity?


----------



## basilio (4 December 2017)

I can certainly see why "Milo the Man" could be a poster boy for some posters on ASF.  Just manages to  skewer anything and everybody  left of Genghis Khan with such a deft fun loving stiletto you'd be in stitches forever. (Just don't worry about any pesky facts.  They only spoil the story.)

Very droll indeed.


----------



## basilio (4 December 2017)

While we are on the topic of how the world turns these days perhaps this view is worth considering.


----------



## luutzu (4 December 2017)

An American billionaire saying tax cuts for the rich doesn't help the poor.


----------



## Tisme (5 December 2017)

Here's a classic example of "them" people frustrated at not ever being able to pass themselves off as "us"  

Seriously though, did these kids never get any parental guidance about the world not being fairy floss, unicorns and what farcebook memes would have you believe.?


----------



## Tisme (7 December 2017)

So many people so jealous of the apex male they have to attack it:


----------



## wayneL (7 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> So many people so jealous of the apex male they have to attack it:
> 
> View attachment 85102



Clem hasn't heard of women's only classes or modesty curtains at public pools?

Im the context of militant equality, men are already discriminated against.


----------



## Logique (8 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/502532d05aa769bb6960db5092668ea2
> Here's one for our apologists and engineers ..... a conundrum for them



Media today saying Milo Y.'s management are refusing to pay the Victorian Government $50k for costs of policing outside the Melbourne meeting, saying "..sue us".

It was a legal meeting. Here's a thought Premier Bracks, what about the Leftist troublemakers paying the bill?


----------



## Tink (8 December 2017)

Why should they pay for an event that was scheduled.

Victoria - the CRIME state.

What happened to Andrew Bolt walking to his meeting?

What happened to Margaret Court walking to her meeting?

--------------------------------------------------

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/i-dislike-daniel-andrews-intensely.32824/page-4_

--------------------------------------------------

This was just before the Bourke St rampage -

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...s-or-a-sign-of-the-welfare-state.31012/page-5_


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2017)

Logique said:


> Media today saying Milo Y.'s management are refusing to pay the Victorian Government $50k for costs of policing outside the Melbourne meeting, saying "..sue us".
> 
> It was a legal meeting. Here's a thought Premier Bracks, what about the Leftist troublemakers paying the bill?





Right on.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

Tink said:


> Why should they pay for an event that was scheduled.
> 
> Victoria - the CRIME state.
> 
> ...




Most events are charged by police to provide security.

eg, Concerts and festivals, the Sydney easter show etc all pay for a police presence.

From memory I think the easter show paid about $1.2 Million for the police presence there for the duration of the show.

They charge about $150 / hour per police officer


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2017)

so if you don't pay the taxpayrr funded coppers, the thugs are free to run amok.

there is something intrinsically wrong with that.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2017)

wayneL said:


> so if you don't pay the taxpayrr funded coppers, the thugs are free to run amok.
> 
> there is something intrinsically wrong with that.




And if you do pay the coppers then the thieves and robbers take advantage of the fact that the copsa are at a concert or whatever.

Surely events should pay private security to do the work.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

wayneL said:


> so if you don't pay the taxpayrr funded coppers, the thugs are free to run amok.
> 
> there is something intrinsically wrong with that.




I think it just comes down to if you request additional police presence at your Event, they charge you for that extra presence you are getting over and above what every one else is getting.

eg. If a bank requested to have a police officer stand at their door 9 - 5 every day, they would be charged.

You don't have to have extra police presence, you can just wait for a thug to come and commit a crime and then call the police just like anyone else, but if you want a large police presence to provide security as a deterrent then you have to pay for that.

Other wise, why would anyone pay private security or body guards,  just request 10 cops to hang out at your business or event 24 hours a day waiting for something to happen.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Surely events should pay private security to do the work.




They can and do.

Police offer a different service, eg they can arrest and remove move people easier, and have almost unlimited back up if things go wrong.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

I found this document that explains a bit about police charges and event planning etc.

Basically if you are operating an event, you can pay to have additional police rostered on to provide event security to your event.

These police are additional police that have been rostered on especially for the duration of your event, and will focus on only you event, eg they won't be called away for any general duties, they are part of a special "task group" assigned to your event only.


> Commissioner’s Foreword
> 
> The New South Wales Police Force administers “user charges” policing services in accordance with Government policy.
> 
> ...




http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/9066/Policy_-_User_Charges_-_Final.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I found this document that explains a bit about police charges and event planning etc.
> 
> Basically if you are operating an event, you can pay to have additional police rostered on to provide event security to your event.
> 
> ...




I didn't read it all, but I gather that the "paid for" police would be those who would be otherwise off duty and would be getting overtime for event control ? If so, that's fair enough if they are not taken away from normal duties.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I didn't read it all, but I gather that the "paid for" police would be those who would be otherwise off duty and would be getting overtime for event control ? If so, that's fair enough if they are not taken away from normal duties.




Also, whether you charge for an event makes a difference. If the organisers or sponsors are making a commercial gain, then the tax payer is not expected to provide additional security free of charge.

If it's a free event or for charity, the police provide the additional security for free.





> A 100% exemption for user charges applies where an event meets both the organisation and event criteria.
> 
> Organisation Criteria
> 
> ...


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2017)

I guess the question is whether the additional police were requested


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2017)

Fb part from Lib Dems:

The following email to the Victorian Police Minister Lisa Neville was sent by party member AJ Frost. He poses a reasonable set of questions to the Minister. In terms of protecting people’s fundamental rights are the police being a part of the solution or a part of the problem?

EMAIL:- 

"I have been following the events around Milo Yiannopoulos and his tour around Australia.

One point that stood out to me was the intent of Victoria Police to invoice his promoters for the costs of the police presence at the protests outside his event.

While on one hand I can understand the argument for financing police services on something approximating a user-pays basis, it concerns me that too much discretion in such matters could function as a powerful tool for shutting down events, particularly events concerning political speech, that the state government of the time happens to disagree with.

Are there any official, publicly viewable guidelines for when an event will incur such a fee? If so, could you please direct me to or provide a copy of these guidelines?

Further, it seems clear that the protesters involved in this case, namely antifa and associated far-left groups, protest political events like Mr Yiannopoulos' speech with the intent of shutting them down through sheer inconvenience, financial or otherwise.

Has it been considered what impact the invoicing decision will have, in terms of creating future incentives for these groups to protest more frequently, in greater numbers, and with behavior that will maximize police expense, knowing that their political enemies will bear the cost? Is there any reason that, given the decision to finance the police presence directly rather than through general revenue, no attempt seems to have been made to bill the organizers of the protests themselves?"


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2017)

wayneL said:


> I guess the question is whether the additional police were requested




In that link I provided, it also says the police can deploy to your event if they feel they need to for public safety reasons and pass any cost on to you.

Eg, if your private security arrangements are not good enough and aren't handling a situation.


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2017)

wayneL said:


> Fb part from Lib Dems:
> 
> The following email to the Victorian Police Minister Lisa Neville was sent by party member AJ Frost. He poses a reasonable set of questions to the Minister. In terms of protecting people’s fundamental rights are the police being a part of the solution or a part of the problem?
> 
> ...






If I a promoter hires Beyoncé, and books out concerts in cities across Australia, the police will want to be present to ensure public safety.

These costs will be passed along to Beyonce and her promoters.

How is Milo different?


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If I a promoter hires Beyoncé, and books out concerts in cities across Australia, the police will want to be present to ensure public safety.
> 
> These costs will be passed along to Beyonce and her promoters.
> 
> How is Milo different?




If it's a commercial event requiring extra policing, charging them is fair enough. Just from personal experiences, the police force now charges (extra) for everything.

My mum was involved in a car accident, no one was injured with the other driver being at fault. The guy don't want to admit he was at fault and so the cop was called. 

They told us over the phone that we better resolved it ourselves because if they come out they'll have to fine someone. Sure enough they did fine the other guy.

On another occasion my then gf was in an accident. She was at fault and no one's denying that. But it was an accident. It wasn't reckless driving but still she got fined. Then also charged for the fire and ambulance services.  

That seem to go a bit far isn't it? I mean taxpayers already pay for the police services... when an accident happen, isn't it part of their job to respond? Public safety and such... why the extra charge?

And apparently, if your house gets broken into and no one was home but your stuff get stolen, call the insurance because cops don't chase property theft anymore.


----------



## Logique (9 December 2017)

Who pays the bill for extra police at union demonstrations?  

There's plenty of politics in this, in the People's Republic of Victoria.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> If it's a commercial event requiring extra policing, charging them is fair enough. Just from personal experiences, the police force now charges (extra) for everything.
> 
> My mum was involved in a car accident, no one was injured with the other driver being at fault. The guy don't want to admit he was at fault and so the cop was called.
> 
> ...



Yeah they don't bother with a lot of crimes now. I had $20000 worth of tools stolen and one of my work vehicles knocked off this year.
Cops found the van parked on a football field after someone called it in. I saw some cctv cameras next door that had filmed the thieves pulling up in another car. Cops didn't even bother checking it out.
The only way they find stuff is if someone gives them a tipoff.


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> They told us over the phone that we better resolved it ourselves because if they come out they'll have to fine someone. Sure enough they did fine the other guy.




Had he broken a Law or road rule? 

If so I think its completely fair to fine the person, a fine is a perfectly acceptable punishment, better than jail.



> On another occasion my then gf was in an accident. *She was at fault and no one's denying that*. But it was an accident. It wasn't reckless driving but still *she got fined*. Then also charged for the fire and ambulance services.




What was the situation? I don't really believe you can say "she was at fault" but then say "its an accident".

I think if something is your fault, you should pay to fix it, so its fair for her to be charged the fire and ambulance, maybe pay a fine.



> That seem to go a bit far isn't it? I mean taxpayers already pay for the police services... when an accident happen, isn't it part of their job to respond? Public safety and such... why the extra charge?




It is their job to respond, but if you caused a scene that was your fault, isn't it also fair that you cover some of the cost?


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

moXJO said:


> Yeah they don't bother with a lot of crimes now. I had $20000 worth of tools stolen and one of my work vehicles knocked off this year.
> Cops found the van parked on a football field after someone called it in. I saw some cctv cameras next door that had filmed the thieves pulling up in another car. Cops didn't even bother checking it out.
> The only way they find stuff is if someone gives them a tipoff.




yea, it's getting ridiculous. 

We had our car stolen a few years back. Someone eventually called in and the cops picked it up, towed it to their forensic lab somewhere because it was stolen during a break in with us inside the house.

So after they're done with checking the car for prints, they called us and said we have to pay them for the tow and the storage. 

I mean, the car costs maybe $2,000 if we sell it. Yet the tow and storage at their warehouse goes for some $500. And it was stolen.


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Had he broken a Law or road rule?
> 
> If so I think its completely fair to fine the person, a fine is a perfectly acceptable punishment, better than jail.
> 
> ...




She was at a traffic light turning right. She misjudged the oncoming car's distance and it bummed into her car. 

So technically it was her fault. But she wasn't under the influence or reckless... it was an accident, right?

I mean we can always say that any accident was due to recklessness, but there are certain degree. Maybe intend to harm or reckless speeding. I don't think the police are permitted that kind of judgment. All they do is if they turn up, someone will get fined to cover the cost.

Maybe one day we'd get fine for infringement and a second fine for bothering the officer to have to fine us.

It's easy to say it's fair to fine people... but man, most average people are on a very tight budget. Sometime a few hundred dollars could send them broke. 

So with my gf's then fines. Her car was totalled. It was a relief that no one was injured... but she was at uni, pay $250 or more for the "reckless driving", about the same amount each for the ambulance and the fire service. And this was back when her part-time job earn about $250 a week.


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2017)

Logique said:


> Who pays the bill for extra police at union demonstrations?
> 
> There's plenty of politics in this, in the People's Republic of Victoria.




*One man thinks justice consists in paying debts, and has no measure in his abhorrence of another who is very remiss in this duty and makes the creditor wait tediously. But that second man has his own way of looking at things; asks himself Which debt must I pay first, the debt to the rich, or the debt to the poor? the debt of money or the debt of thought to mankind, of genius to nature? For you, O broker, there is not other principle but arithmetic. For me, commerce is of trivial import; love, faith, truth of character, the aspiration of man, these are sacred;*


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> *One man thinks justice consists in paying debts, and has no measure in his abhorrence of another who is very remiss in this duty and makes the creditor wait tediously. But that second man has his own way of looking at things; asks himself Which debt must I pay first, the debt to the rich, or the debt to the poor? the debt of money or the debt of thought to mankind, of genius to nature? For you, O broker, there is not other principle but arithmetic. For me, commerce is of trivial import; love, faith, truth of character, the aspiration of man, these are sacred;*




Back on the meds again?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2017)

More population, more crime, police resources probably haven't kept up, they have to prioritise.

As long as they solve the serious crimes like drug trafficking, murders, assaults etc then I suppose they are doing their real jobs.

But they seem to have plenty of radar traps on the roads to get revenue.


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Back on the meds again?





Emerson my son Emerson


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> More population, more crime, police resources probably haven't kept up, they have to prioritise.
> 
> As long as they solve the serious crimes like drug trafficking, murders, assaults etc then I suppose they are doing their real jobs.
> 
> But they seem to have plenty of radar traps on the roads to get revenue.




Make minor road works an 80klicks zone for miles either side on a 100km motorway and put a camera in .... that's the QLD way to raise revenue


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> More population, more crime, police resources probably haven't kept up, they have to prioritise.
> 
> As long as they solve the serious crimes like drug trafficking, murders, assaults etc then I suppose they are doing their real jobs.
> 
> But they seem to have plenty of radar traps on the roads to get revenue.




love how the cops parked at end of 80k zone pointing to 60k. 

There's this camera at an intersection I thought weren't necessary because it's a bend and just up ahead is another one. Saw it removed so thought wow, that former premier with fine taste for expensive, but free, wine really did deliver on his promise to remove cameras that's just put there to raise revenue. That was nice.

Recently found that they simply moved the camera to the smaller road of that 3-way intersection.


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Emerson my son Emerson




He's probably a little less racist than Kipling. Maybe put Mark Twain in the weekly dosage. But whatever you do, don't go the full Rudyard.


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> More population, more crime, police resources probably haven't kept up, they have to prioritise.
> 
> As long as they solve the serious crimes like drug trafficking, *murders*, assaults etc then I suppose they are doing their real jobs.
> 
> But they seem to have plenty of *radar traps on the roads* to get revenue.




More people die in road accidents than due to murder.

So while solving murder cases is important, it is not more important than reducing road deaths.

Also, I don't have any problem with offsetting the large cost of policing with fines from those people caught breaking the law.

Either way the public is paying for the police service, Fines just push part of those payments onto those caught breaking the law.

I have paid my fair share of fines due to my stupid behaviour when I was young, and yes the fines hurt, but they did curb my behaviour, also they didn't hurt as much as the possible negative affects of my behaviour.


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Make minor road works an 80klicks zone for miles either side on a 100km motorway and put a camera in .... that's the QLD way to raise revenue




Road works are a big problem area for crashes.



> it is estimated that nationally each year at least 50 deaths and 750 injuries occur in crashes at roadworks with a cost of more than $400 million




So the reduced speed limits are there for a reason, and are enforced to try and make people obey them. enforcement costs money, I am happy for the people violating the rules and putting others at risk to foot the bill 

http://acrs.org.au/files/arsrpe/Paper 36 - Debnath - Occ Road Safety in Action.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also, I don't have any problem with offsetting the large cost of policing with fines from those people caught breaking the law.




There is a lot more money to be made by siezing the assets of drug traffickers than fining people for exceeding the speed limit by 10 kmh.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> yea, it's getting ridiculous.
> 
> We had our car stolen a few years back. Someone eventually called in and the cops picked it up, towed it to their forensic lab somewhere because it was stolen during a break in with us inside the house.
> 
> ...



They asked me if I wanted to get the car dusted. I said is it even worth it? 
All these bs CSI shows make people think we have all these methods that work 90% of the time. When the truth is you are lucky if you can lift a fingerprint that can be used.
I knew it was all bs,  they said it was "F'all chance" so I clutched it and drove it back.


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot more money to be made by siezing the assets of drug traffickers than fining people for exceeding the speed limit by 10 kmh.




Every couple hundreds per click counts. 

That and it's more bang for the buck. 

Hope we don't go the way of some US states where the cops get to seize assets of those they suspect are up to no good. Like pulling over a druggie-looking guy, see a few grand of cash he claims he's bringing along to "buy a car"... then you take it. 

Can he really afford to sue the police department if you've taken all his savings? And he has no car to drive around?


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

moXJO said:


> They asked me if I wanted to get the car dusted. I said is it even worth it?
> All these bs CSI shows make people think we have all these methods that work 90% of the time. When the truth is you are lucky if you can lift a fingerprint that can be used.
> I knew it was all bs,  they said it was "F'all chance" so I clutched it and drove it back.




Not sure how they'd match a fingerprint (if any) against people they're not out there catching. I just don't see them doing that CSI print matching against their database on your one.

I guess the cop there was trying to save you some money. And the hassle of having to clean up the dust after you pay them to take it back.

Thing is, seems that small-time crooks know this and so they're more tempted to break in and steal properties. 

A cop actually called me back to question our report of the "stolen" car. He asks how could they take our stuff first, then came back later for the car? That doesn't make sense.

I told him that our crappy car isn't on premium two-way insurance. So if it's lost it's lost. We're not trying to scam the insurer. Oh, OK. 

At least they did try to do some detective work I guess.


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2017)

Look at that, $1.5Trillion in tax cuts to the rich. But that's not enough... how are you going to pay for that?  Why you take it from the poorest and most vulnerable people in your society, obviously. 

You really can't make up how nasty these farkers are.


*U.S. tax revamp still incomplete as Republicans eye social program cuts*
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Even before completing their overhaul of the U.S. tax code, Republicans in Washington have begun turning their attention to changes and possible cuts in the social safety net of government programs for the poor, children, elderly and disabled Americans.

President Donald Trump, House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan and other Republican officials in recent remarks have made clear that welfare or “entitlement reform,” as they often call it, will be a top priority for them in 2018.

“Next year, we’re going to have to get back to entitlement reform,” Ryan said on a radio talk show on Wednesday

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...blicans-eye-social-program-cuts-idUSKBN1E22MD


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot more money to be made by siezing the assets of drug traffickers than fining people for exceeding the speed limit by 10 kmh.



I am not sure about that, but you can do both,

Speeding fines offset the cost of enforcing speed limits, and seizing drug money and assets can offset the cost of that.


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Look at that, $1.5Trillion in tax cuts to the rich. But that's not enough... how are you going to pay for that?  Why you take it from the poorest and most vulnerable people in your society, obviously.
> 
> You really can't make up how nasty these farkers are.



The plan for an impending war is to keep the U.S.A. team lean, mean and hungry for fighting while topping up the rich so they can survive the confrontation.


----------



## Tink (10 December 2017)

The violent left have hijacked Melbourne.

How many events were closed down.


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Road works are a big problem area for crashes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah OK ,  woteva.  WE are talking roads without any works happening except at night and that's on the shoulders with steel crash barriers. Tke last LNO premier saw it for what is was and wanted to introduce 100k during non works times (daytime) and 80k for actual work times.

We can all play the contrary game, but fact is they are ridiculous rules and great revenue raisers


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2017)




----------



## sptrawler (11 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Look at that, $1.5Trillion in tax cuts to the rich. But that's not enough... how are you going to pay for that?  Why you take it from the poorest and most vulnerable people in your society, obviously.
> 
> You really can't make up how nasty these farkers are.
> 
> ...




So What Asian welfare system do you propose?
Please put one forward, that offers more than a "Western System" and I'm sure lots will flock there.
I know our systems aren't brilliant, but please show us one of the Asian systems that is better or equal.
Also don't come up with the "money" crap, Australia gets 8 million tourists, How many do Thailand get? Also Thailand makes heaps of  cars Nissan Navara RHD utes for a start, all Triumph motor bikes, a new Ducati plant has been built there.

Yet you go on and on about how we don't give enough, I hope you have renounced your other citizenship.LOL

Just joking, but don't pull on the heartstrings too much, you will kill us.lol


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So What Asian welfare system do you propose?
> Please put one forward, that offers more than a "Western System" and I'm sure lots will flock there.
> I know our systems aren't brilliant, but please show us one of the Asian systems that is better or equal.
> Also don't come up with the "money" crap, Australia gets 8 million tourists, How many do Thailand get? Also Thailand makes heaps of  cars Nissan Navara RHD utes for a start, all Triumph motor bikes, a new Ducati plant has been built there.
> ...




What are you talking about?

There's no "Asian" or "Western" systems of welfare. There's just a system that either take care of its poor and its elderly or tell them to go tell somebody who cares.

Why do you think Western societies in the modern era (defined as post WW2) became so rich and prosperous?

They don't get there by having the very rich at the very top pissing down on the poor, take money from the poor and shower it on the rich... then have its "leaders" tell the poor to go get a job.

Name any third world, impoverished country in the history of the world, up to now, that doesn't have a tiny few elite owning everything. 

So if the US, or Australia, make policies where wealth is taken from the poor, leading to, say, the top 3 richest Americans having the same wealth as the bottom half; or the top 10% owning all the wealth with some 20% at the bottom having negative asset...

If a "Western System" that created that... why is it any more special than what's found in VN or China or the ME etc. etc? Freedom? Democracy?

--------
It's not about being soft or weak and humane or whatever... even though it is humane. But looking at it from a purely economic point of view... national wealth are not generated by taking from the poor and giving it to the rich. 

Give the poor money and they can buy and create demand, increased demand increase investments leading to jobs and increased income, increased tax revenue etc. etc.

That and it's not too bad to have your own people sheltered, fed, educated, less family-breakdown; less crimes and violence.


So listening to those Senators lecturing how the poor, the sick and the elderly being parasites; how children shouldn't have healthcare or their parents food stamp because the gov't is broke and have no money... all during a debate where they literally argues to sign into law a tax code that will hand over some $1.5Trillion [that's with a Tee] to the very rich...

That's not just immoral, it's economic suicide. 

You want to see how the West decline into a Third World... that's an example of how.


----------



## qldfrog (11 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yeah OK ,  woteva.  WE are talking roads without any works happening except at night and that's on the shoulders with steel crash barriers. Tke last LNO premier saw it for what is was and wanted to introduce 100k during non works times (daytime) and 80k for actual work times.
> 
> We can all play the contrary game, but fact is they are ridiculous rules and great revenue raisers



just want to point out this goes for years with changing start of the 80k limit zone, to make sure you get caught..the one I am talking is the freeway north of Brisbane from Northlakes onwards toward the sunshine coast, been going on for 3y or so, barriers are still there but nothing done...


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2017)

qldfrog said:


> just want to point out this goes for years with changing start of the 80k limit zone, to make sure you get caught..the one I am talking is the freeway north of Brisbane from Northlakes onwards toward the sunshine coast, been going on for 3y or so, barriers are still there but nothing done...





It's the same in Britain. They have permanent road work barriers as you enter each district along the motorways, each with a camera.... I'm guessing there is a revenue sharing scheme in place between county and crown


----------



## SirRumpole (11 December 2017)

Out here in NSW country town they don't bother removing the "Roaworks" signs until weeks later.

Fortunately they don't have the manpower to police all the locations.


----------



## Value Collector (11 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Out here in NSW country town they don't bother removing the "Roaworks" signs until weeks later.
> 
> Fortunately they don't have the manpower to police all the locations.




I also find country people (in general), drive pretty fast because the distances can be long and they "Know their roads", perhaps it makes sense to leave the signs up a bit longer to warn people of changes.


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> It's the same in Britain. They have permanent road work barriers as you enter each district along the motorways, each with a camera.... I'm guessing there is a revenue sharing scheme in place between county and crown




They also send police cars around school pick-up and drop off hours too. You know, to save the children.

Then while they're at it, might as well take a drive around the neighbourhood and fine people who park funny.


----------



## dutchie (11 December 2017)

Americans are weak. Their universities are a joke.
If all it takes is a logo on a cap to make you tremble in fear.

Fordham University Republicans wearing MAGA hats are kicked out of campus coffee shop for violating 'safe space' in calculated stunt designed to 'test' to the store

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cked-coffee-shop-MAGA-hats.html#ixzz50to6oMv1


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> Americans are weak. Their universities are a joke.
> If all it takes is a logo on a cap to make you tremble in fear.
> 
> Fordham University Republicans wearing MAGA hats are kicked out of campus coffee shop for violating 'safe space' in calculated stunt designed to 'test' to the store
> ...




How has Trump MAGA, again?

At home, he's destroying the working poor [aka, the "Middle Class"] and other parasites.

Literally taking some $400B from senior citizens and children food and healthcare program, handing it over to people like himself.

Gutting regulations on banks, environment protection, consumer protection from banks and financial institutions... Those laws that he and his party can't yet remove they put in place managers who would not enforce it.

Abroad he threatens nuclear war with N.Korea. When is it cool to threaten wiping out an entire country? And if that were happen, what would the consequences to neighbours and the region be, even if the war/s don't turn nuclear?

In the Middle East, to help Bibi's domestic trouble... and to make the Avengelical Christians at home a bit happier knowing that Rapture is a few steps closer... he just publicly declare something you don't really need to say because it's already been done.

That put American soldiers and diplomats at greater risk. Heightened security alerts costs money.

But I guess it's all worth it because Bibi can say that the great Donald edged the Trump name into a great and historical city. Kinda like graffiti, just more brass and in 3D. That and Bibi gets to tell the"violent left" to stop protesting against laws designed to protect him from probes into his alleged corruptions.

Why focus on small stuff like whether or not the PM takes money from businessmen, or make law against one media proprietor if the favoured ones promised to play ball... why such petty stuff when we got Arabs to deal with.


----------



## Tisme (12 December 2017)

Dr. Michelle Cretella, president of the American College of Pediatricians, says it’s “institutionalized child abuse."


----------



## bellenuit (12 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Dr. Michelle Cretella, president of the American College of Pediatricians, says it’s “institutionalized child abuse."





Even as a layman, that came across as very simplistic. She seemed to suggest that the conversion is done because (in many or most cases) the doctors are intimidated by threats of suicide by the "confused" patient. From what I know, the patient undergoes a long period of observation and diagnosis and only when it is apparent that the only conclusion is that there is a mismatch between the psychology and the physiology and it is in the patients best interests to go with the psychology, that the conversion through surgery and hormones takes place. That is not to say that there are not some extremists that want to push gender conversion as a political tool and care little for the well being of the person, either short time or long time.

It is interesting the source of the video. The Daily Signal is an arm of The Heritage Foundation, a right wing conservative organisation in the US. If they are so interested in the health of US citizens, they would not be the pusher of anti Affordable Health Care (Obamacare) propaganda, which they regard as having no positive virtues. This is a list of such topics on their website (they have a whole section just attacking Obamacare).

http://dailysignal.com/category/obamacare

Look at the other sections and it is obvious that it is just another GOP mouthpiece, not too unlike Fox News.


----------



## Tisme (15 December 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Even as a layman, that came across as very simplistic. .




That's how American communicate ...using simplistic lingo and props. She has to have some smarts to hold the position she does.


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2017)




----------



## basilio (18 December 2017)

*How to engineer an all out race war.
*
A bright spark managed to obtain the style guide to writers who wished to contibute to the Daily Stormer. This is the key net site for promoting hatred of the Jews and a return to the glories of the  White Supremacy and the Third Reich.

Quite chilling clever. The key point .?
*"The key, per Anglin, is to maintain the site’s veneer of “non-ironic Nazism masquerading as ironic Nazism.”*

First examples from the article.
*1. Always blame the Jews.*

Anglin writes that the Daily Stormer is “designed to spread the message of nationalism and anti-Semitism to the masses.” To that end, he notes that authors’ “prime directive” is singular: “Always Blame the Jews for Everything.”

"As Hitler says, people will become confused and disheartened if they feel there are multiple enemies. As such, all enemies should be combined into one enemy, which is the Jews. This is pretty much objectively true anyway, but we want to leave out any and all nuance. So no blaming Enlightenment thought, pathological altruism, technology/urbanization, etc. just blame Jews for everything."

Anglin goes on to assert that Jews should be blamed “for the behavior of other nonwhites” as well as white women. “Women should be attacked, but there should always be mention that if it wasn't for the Jews, they would be acting normally.”

*2. Go easy on the swear words, heavy on the racial slurs.*

Contributors are discouraged from “an overuse of profanity” which “can come across as goofy.” But Anglin recommends liberal use of racial epithets, and even offers a helpful list of specific “allowed and advisable” slurs.

https://www.alternet.org/media/12-most-insane-rules-biggest-neo-nazi-website-internet


----------



## basilio (18 December 2017)

The nutshell of the daily Stormers style guide.




	

		
			
		

		
	
 Daily Stormer style guide
Let’s see that one more time.

This is obviously a ploy and I actually do want to gas kikes. But that’s neither here nor there.
*
Remember this the next time you find yourself wondering if perhaps they don’t mean it quite like that. Because they always, always do. *
___________________________________
Have you ever wondered why the Alt Right uses outrageous, bad humour to say really ugly things ? Yeah. It's just a clever ploy to make a sick joke of hate and violence.

_Remember this style guide the next time an alt-righter says something so hammily outrageous that you begin to doubt its sincerity. This is by design. The Daily Stormer and other groups like it want you to be unsure if you should take them seriously. Andrew Anglin wants you to think he’s just a troll, that he’s spouting incendiary crap for no other reason than to get a rise out of you. Remember that the irony and the coy misdirection are all in service of tricking people into following him on his path toward a white supremacist state. This is what he believes.
_
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/daily-stormer-nazi-style-guide_us_5a2ece19e4b0ce3b344492f2


----------



## basilio (18 December 2017)

Learn about Andrew Anglin and Der Stormer.  Very potent and effective Alt Righter.

*About Andrew Anglin*
Andrew Anglin is the founder and editor of the neo-Nazi Daily Stormer website. Styled after popular image-heavy Internet forums like 4chan and 8chan, the Daily Stormer is dedicated to spreading anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism, and white nationalism, primarily through guttural hyperbole and epithet-laden stories about topics like alleged Jewish world control and black-on-white crime. As of April 2017, the site ranked 13,137th globally and 5,597th within the United States, according to Alexa.

*In his own words*
“Fear. _Now is the time for it_ … We want these people to feel unwanted. We want them to feel that everything around them is against them. And we want them to be afraid.”
—“Female Hajis Fear to Wear the Headtowel in Public After Trump Win—You Should Yell at Them”

“The fact is, when you give women rights, they destroy absolutely everything around them, no matter what other variable is involved … Even if you become the ultimate alpha male, some stupid bitch will still ruin your life.”
—“Brad Pitt Losing Weight and His Mind After Whore Wife Ruins His Life”

“Jews, Blacks and lesbians will be leaving America if Trump gets elected—and he’s happy about it. This alone is enough reason to put your entire heart and soul into supporting this man.”
—“Get Em Outta Here: Glorious Leader Calls for Kike Lena Dunham to Leave America,” April 26, 2016

*“*The day is coming when we’re going to tear down the hoax [Holocaust] memorial in Berlin and replace it with a statue of Hitler 1,000 feet tall.”
—“SS Auschwitz Guard Dies Days Before Scheduled Lynching by Kikes,” April 8, 2016

“I ask myself this, in all things: WWHD? (What Would Hitler Do?). To be slightly more honest/specific, I ask myself what Hitler would do if he’d been born in 1984 in America and was dealing with this situation we are currently dealing with and also really liked 4chan and Anime. Hitler was, ultimately, the symbolic (and in some ways actual real life) culmination of traditional Europeanism.
—“Andrew Anglin Exposed,” March 14, 2016

“My problem with blacks is that I have come to understand that their biological nature is incompatible with White society, and that we will never have peace as long as they are among us, given that irrational outbursts of brutal violence are a part of their nature.”
—“Blacks Loved Slavery and Regretted its End,” Feb. 20, 2014

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/andrew-anglin


----------



## Tisme (31 December 2017)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/tr...k-in-the-nanny-state-of-australia_a_23076349/

Pussy Oz:



> *A Man Walks Into A Bar In The Nanny State Of Australia...*
> *Having your ID recorded to get a beer is not normal.*
> 14/08/2017 10:44 AM AEST | Updated 14/08/2017 10:50 AM AEST
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (31 December 2017)

basilio said:


> Learn about Andrew Anglin and Der Stormer.  Very potent and effective Alt Righter.
> 
> *About Andrew Anglin*
> Andrew Anglin is the founder and editor of the neo-Nazi Daily Stormer website. Styled after popular image-heavy Internet forums like 4chan and 8chan, the Daily Stormer is dedicated to spreading anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism, and white nationalism, primarily through guttural hyperbole and epithet-laden stories about topics like alleged Jewish world control and black-on-white crime. As of April 2017, the site ranked 13,137th globally and 5,597th within the United States, according to Alexa.
> ...




They are just nonsensical quotes from Yang in retaliation for Yin having too loud a voice in recent times.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/tr...k-in-the-nanny-state-of-australia_a_23076349/
> 
> Pussy Oz:



It's a lot to do with the older generation causing it. Glassings/fights became a regular thing in pubs late 90s to 2000,  so we ended up with plastic cups and scans.
Pubs have gone to dirt anyway. Everyone sits around on their phone.


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2018)

We just need a group hug.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...of-control-in-melbourne-minister-says/9296476

The Sudanese just need somewhere to settle, no one in Africa wants them apparently, so we just need to embrace them and give them a chance of a decent life.
Once they are loved and feel wanted, they will put down their machete's and stop behaving badly.


----------



## Tisme (2 January 2018)

basilio said:


> *How to engineer an all out race war.
> *
> A bright spark managed to obtain the style guide to writers who wished to contibute to the Daily Stormer. This is the key net site for promoting hatred of the Jews and a return to the glories of the  White Supremacy and the Third Reich.
> 
> ...




Interesting concept. I might have a looksee


----------



## Tisme (2 January 2018)

sptrawler said:


> We just need a group hug.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...of-control-in-melbourne-minister-says/9296476
> 
> ...




They might be right, we could be the first place in world history where black Africans aren't six to twelve times more likely towards crime than the normal modal. We need a postal survey to settle this or even a hand holding chain STAT!


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2018)

I wonder if Labor and x benchers will back Dutton's plan.
Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton says he will consider deporting African gang members if they are on temporary visas.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 January 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if Labor and x benchers will back Dutton's plan.
> Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton says he will consider deporting African gang members if they are on temporary visas.




Good idea. Get rid of the trouble makers.

I bet Tanya will be out there crying over the vicious ba$tards.


----------



## sptrawler (4 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Good idea. Get rid of the trouble makers.
> 
> I bet Tanya will be out there crying over the vicious ba$tards.




Well Albenese, is the first out of the blocks, saying Dutton is playing politics.

The disgraceful degeneration of "Australian behaviour", is obviously going to continue, as being politically correct is far more important than demanding decent behaviour.
Christ knows how bad things have to get, before Labor take it seriously. 
On one hand they say give them a home, then when they go on a welfare funded rampage, they say don't worry about it.
I guess as was pointed out recently in the press, it is the age pension that is costing the most, so worry about that. lol


----------



## sptrawler (4 January 2018)

The really funny part will be, when Labor turn around and say, "we had them in detention centre's, it the Libs fault for closing them down".
Watch this space.lol


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2018)

Could it be that we are finally turning our backs on the post 80's and finding things to get hurt and indignant about? 

https://www.2gb.com/indigenous-leader-jacinta-price-couldnt-care-less-about-changing-the-date/


----------



## SirRumpole (6 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> Could it be that we are finally turning our backs on the post 80's and finding things to get hurt and indignant about?
> 
> https://www.2gb.com/indigenous-leader-jacinta-price-couldnt-care-less-about-changing-the-date/




"It's a choice to feel offended".

Exactly.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> "It's a choice to feel offended".
> 
> Exactly.




Like a drug to some. Hate, loathing,


SirRumpole said:


> "It's a choice to feel offended".
> 
> Exactly.




The opiate of people who are born failures and will never amount to much as individuals.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> "It's a choice to feel offended".



They seek definitions such as recognition and respect. The melding of races has forever been a difficult process.


----------



## Tisme (15 January 2018)

hmmm hmmm


----------



## Tisme (15 January 2018)

Might be a good read:

*Microaggression and Moral Cultures*
*
Authors: Bradley Campbell1 and Jason Manning2
*



> Campus activists and others might refer to slights of one’s ethnicity or other cultural characteristics as “microaggressions,” and they might use various forums to publicize them. Here we examine this phenomenon by drawing from Donald Black’s theories of conflict and from cross-cultural studies of conflict and morality. We argue that this behavior resembles other conflict tactics in which the aggrieved actively seek the support of third parties as well as those that focus on oppression. We identify the social conditions associated with each feature, and we discuss how the rise of these conditions has led to large-scale moral change such as the emergence of a victimhood culture that is distinct from the honor cultures and dignity cultures of the past.


----------



## basilio (16 January 2018)




----------



## Tisme (16 January 2018)

Loved South Carolina..... great place and very inclusive. North Carolina on the other hand would rather shoot exotics than tolerate them. 

I guess that's the benefit if being a frequent world traveller, you get to know the truth first hand rather than have to look for your own Green brand on youtube.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> Loved South Carolina..... great place and very inclusive. North Carolina on the other hand would rather shoot exotics than tolerate them.
> 
> I guess that's the benefit if being a frequent world traveller, you get to know the truth first hand rather than have to look for your own Green brand on youtube.




You have friends in the South? That does kinda explain a lot


----------



## Tisme (17 January 2018)

luutzu said:


> You have friends in the South? That does kinda explain a lot





In real life I'm really quite likeable, even to Greens and Marxists in denial of their racist and xenophobic agendas. 

Many of the friends I have made in the "south" are actually black, although some of them insist they are "Irish", which is a perverse badge of honour in the USofA....apparently being merely American is not enough for many.

I suspect you would be a great friend too, especially given your penchant not to take yourself too seriously....are you "Irish"?


----------



## luutzu (17 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> In real life I'm really quite likeable, even to Greens and Marxists in denial of their racist and xenophobic agendas.
> 
> Many of the friends I have made in the "south" are actually black, although some of them insist they are "Irish", which is a perverse badge of honour in the USofA....apparently being merely American is not enough for many.
> 
> I suspect you would be a great friend too, especially given your penchant not to take yourself too seriously....are you "Irish"?




Many of your friends are black? That's an improvement on "I have a black friend" and "one of our lawyers is a Jew" 

I have the luck of the Irish, but I don't drink so I can't be Irish.


----------



## Tisme (17 January 2018)

luutzu said:


> Many of your friends are black? That's an improvement on "I have a black friend" and "one of our lawyers is a Jew"
> 
> I have the luck of the Irish, but I don't drink so I can't be Irish.





No what I think I said was "many of the friends I have made in the "south"". So of the three friends I made ....... (JK)


----------



## basilio (17 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> In real life I'm really quite likeable, even to Greens and Marxists in denial of their racist and xenophobic agendas.





So true .. !! Clearly you and Donald Trump must almost be brothers. Rich, famous, women falling at their feet (or being tripped..) .  And your world views are also startingly similar.  Bit like "Twins "

Cheers..


----------



## Tisme (17 January 2018)

basilio said:


> So true .. !! Clearly you and Donald Trump must almost be brothers. Rich, famous, women falling at their feet (or being tripped..) .  And your world views are also startingly similar.  Bit like "Twins "
> 
> Cheers..




I'm rather cheered that you think I'm President of the USofA material...thankyou for the compliment.

PS I am not apologising for liking women... I know it's not camp enough for you and not your cup of tea, but there is something rather attractive about the female form to quite a few males....still.


----------



## cynic (17 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> ...
> 
> PS I am not apologising for liking women... I know it's not camp enough for you and not your cup of tea, but there is something rather attractive about the female form to quite a few males....still.



Well, when people start calling you a homophobe for being such an unashamedly open heterophile, don't come crying to me!

I want no part in any drama triangle of your, or anyone else's creation!


----------



## Tisme (18 January 2018)

cynic said:


> Well, when people start calling you a homophobe for being such an unashamedly open heterophile, don't come crying to me!
> 
> I want no part in any drama triangle of your, or anyone else's creation!




It a burden that would kill a normal man, but I'm prepared to shoulder it merely on stubborn principle.


----------



## Tisme (20 January 2018)




----------



## Tisme (22 January 2018)

Another display of just how rooted the the Labor Party has become in the mire of nanny state, conflict evasion and capitulation of its original intent and dogma.... Greens lite, which is not much to be proud of when the nation is being reshaped as an apologist AustralDenmark.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/c...d/news-story/e0ddba70abdb536ecc4fb415d5a4d1ea



> *GOLDOC issues invites to Comm Games staff to celebrate Invasion Day as critics call it PC gone mad*
> GREG STOLZ, EXCLUSIVE, The Courier-Mail
> January 21, 2018 12:00am
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (22 January 2018)

> It comes as Games chairman Peter Beattie said he would ignore GOLDOC guidelines to not call people “ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls” for fear of causing offence.




This would cause offense to whom I may ask ?


----------



## Tisme (22 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> This would cause offense to whom I may ask ?




Give 'em time and the usual two suspects plus one will respond


----------



## Tisme (22 January 2018)

Proof of fact:


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 January 2018)

We all need to engage a Think Stopper (with cleanable strainer) to get back in balance.


----------



## Tisme (23 January 2018)

*Intersectional Feminism*

Here you go, another you need to learn to keep ahead of the pack. Even the bleeding obvious needs a good name to define it, regardless a child could figure out that any human social condition is multivariate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...t-the-hell-is-it-And-why-you-should-care.html



> *Intersectionality *is a term that was coined by American professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989. The concept already existed but she put a name to it. The textbook definition states:
> 
> _
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2018)

I have a feeling the cashless society, will arrive faster than I first thought.

I have noticed Woolies and Coles have installed more card only self checkouts, than cash or card checkouts.

My SMSF accountant, has informed me there will no longer a requirement to forward bank statements, when new software is up and running.

Amazon has opened a store with no checkouts.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-23/amazon-opens-supermarkets-with-no-checkouts/9351504

It will be interesting to see, when the discontinuation of the $100 note, is announced.


----------



## moXJO (23 January 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I have a feeling the cashless society, will arrive faster than I first thought.
> 
> I have noticed Woolies and Coles have installed more card only self checkouts, than cash or card checkouts.
> 
> ...



I don't think they would get rid of cash altogether. Cyber attacks could bring a country to its knees.


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2018)

moXJO said:


> I don't think they would get rid of cash altogether.




I don't think they will get rid of it altogether either, just the large denomination notes.
They will have to keep cash circulating for tourists, small transactions etc.


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2018)




----------



## Tisme (7 March 2018)

Mental illness is often a hidden malady as we ourselves witness here time and time again

So for those nutters I give you a score card to date:


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2018)

"Feminist calls her own sons potential rapists"

Is that the way she raised them to be ?


----------



## Tisme (7 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> "Feminist calls her own sons potential rapists"
> 
> Is that the way she raised them to be ?




Fruit rarely falls far from the tree.

I like this one, reminds of the infantile rants you see on twatter and some discussion boards :


----------



## moXJO (7 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Mental illness is often a hidden malady as we ourselves witness here time and time again
> 
> So for those nutters I give you a score card to date:




Hahahaha



> It's happening: the 19-year-old Jared Allard, son of insane feminist writer Jody Allard, has submitted his resume to _Daily Wire_ Editor-in-Chief Ben Shapiro after being offered a possible internship during a segment on Friday's _Ben Shapiro Show_ podcast.


----------



## Logique (7 March 2018)

Is there any chance of the Qantas CEO clearing off back to Ireland, and desist from socially engineering Australian society.

We'll try to manage Australian social mores without you mate. Don't let the gate hit you on the way out.


----------



## Tisme (7 March 2018)

Logique said:


> Is there any chance of the Qantas CEO clearing off back to Ireland, and desist from socially engineering Australian society.
> 
> We'll try to manage Australian social mores without you mate. Don't let the gate hit you on the way out.





Won't happen. The well executed infiltration of these types into corporations and govt has reached a tipping point where they now manage the social agenda vacuum created by weakened governments. 

They even use their own flawed propaganda as basis for truth that they can then laminate with more propaganda ...it's a marketer's dream. 

Twatter is now being flooded by Tim Cook's grooming, using his corporation as the  machinery to achieve that.

It's literally the fabled boys club coming to life.


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Won't happen. The well executed infiltration of these types into corporations and govt has reached a tipping point where they now manage the social agenda vacuum created by weakened governments.



Oh come on. These men are leaders and Australia needs more leaders.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Oh come on. These men are leaders and Australia needs more leaders.




Yes you are right. I was being foolish


----------



## Tink (8 March 2018)

Same as I said about Melbourne, and the Margaret Court Arena.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/same-sex-marriage-yes-or-no.33354/page-109#post-974954

--------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-7


----------



## basilio (9 March 2018)

The shift in public understanding of many issues, particularly around women and gay people,  is clearly obvious.  But it hasn't just happened overnight. 

It just makes it so much harder to ridicule women.  To disbelieve scores of shared experiences of abuse and harrassment "because women can't be trusted" . To treat gay people as at best deviants or worse a danger to the whole moral fabric of our society.

Excellent article in The Guardian explores this in detail.

*Big point.
It was a  conservative judge in California who pushed though the test case for gay marriage.
*
* Feminists have slowly shifted power. There’s no going back *
Rebecca Solnit
The #TimesUp and #MeToo movements are a revolution that could not have taken place without decades of quiet, painstaking groundwork

Thu 8 Mar 2018 17.00 AEDT   Last modified on Fri 9 Mar 2018 02.48 AEDT


  

*Shares*
1991




A young protester at a Time’s Up rally in London in January 2018. Photograph: Chris J Ratcliffe/Getty Images
This International Women’s Day comes five months after the revelations about Harvey Weinstein’s long campaign of misogynist punishments of women first broke, and with them more things broke. Excuses broke. Silence was broken. The respectable appearance of a lot of institutions broke. You could say a dam broke, and a wall of women’s stories came spilling forth – which has happened before, but never the way that this round has. *This time around, women didn’t just tell the stories of being attacked and abused; they named names, and abusers and attackers lost jobs and reputations and businesses and careers. They named names, and it mattered; people listened; their testimony had consequences. Because there’s a big difference between being able to say something and having it heard and respected. *Consequences are often the difference.

Something had shifted. What’s often overlooked is that it had shifted beforehand so that this could happen. Something invisible had made it possible for these highly visible upheavals and transformations. People often position revolution and incrementalism as opposites, but if a revolution is something that changes things suddenly, incrementalism often lays the groundwork that makes it possible. Something happens suddenly, and that’s mistaken for something happening out of the blue. *But out of the blue usually means out of the things that most people were not paying attention to, out of the slow work done by somebody or many somebodies out of the limelight for months or years or decades.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/feminists-power-metoo-timesup-rebecca-solnit*


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2018)

basilio said:


> The shift in public understanding of many issues, particularly around women and gay people,  is clearly obvious.  But it hasn't just happened overnight.
> 
> It just makes it so much harder to ridicule women.  To disbelieve scores of shared experiences of abuse and harrassment "because women can't be trusted" . To treat gay people as at best deviants or worse a danger to the whole moral fabric of our society.
> 
> ...




Shouldn't that be in the fake news thread?


----------



## moXJO (9 March 2018)

basilio said:


> * Feminists have slowly shifted power. There’s no going back *



Of course there is going back.
 War or poverty will explode any gains. Anything that brings back humans base needs of survival will destroy the illusion. 
Go to any poor community and drug affected area for a preview. Try any war zone of a previous prosperous nation. 

It's the new reality for now. Nothing is constant.


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Of course there is going back.
> War or poverty will explode any gains. Anything that brings back humans base needs of survival will destroy the illusion.
> Go to any poor community and drug affected area for a preview. Try any war zone of a previous prosperous nation.
> 
> It's the new reality for now. Nothing is constant.



Good observation but that denigration and sexual control shite must never happen. It's all back slapping, smart ass and holier-than-thou on both sides until people need (or don't need in some cases) to band together when times are tough.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2018)

So where do we stand with Barnaby Joyce's continual pillorying in the media with "rumours" of at least 10 allegations of sexual assault against him ?

He's either a dead set dirty old man or maybe a few trivial things are being blown out of proportion, or maybe it's all just innuendo ?

I don't like the man, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with media beat ups like this with un-named accusers hiding behind "protection of sources".


----------



## moXJO (9 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Good observation but that denigration and sexual control shite must never happen. It's all back slapping, smart ass and holier than thou on both sides until people need (or don't need as the case may be) to band together when times are tough.



People shouldn't be racist, bigoted,  sexist, etc. But in reality all this acceptance is a thin veneer over human nature.  People stick with their own. 

When shtf, its usually religion that fills the gap. But violence is the first go to stick. 
The places or people that I have been/ talked to, generally tell the same story. The things you think that are important aren't.

Even a quick trip to Asia will teach you what your life is really worth and how far 'rights' are respected.

And currently Australia is right in the firing zone of some major regional changes. 

I think for a lot of minorities the #metoo is a white focused thing and ignorant in its own right. "White feminazis" should be the catchphrase.


----------



## moXJO (9 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> So where do we stand with Barnaby Joyce's continual pillorying in the media with "rumours" of at least 10 allegations of sexual assault against him ?
> 
> He's either a dead set dirty old man or maybe a few trivial things are being blown out of proportion, or maybe it's all just innuendo ?
> 
> I don't like the man, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with media beat ups like this with un-named accusers hiding behind "protection of sources".



Court of law or he is "innocent till proven guilty" I guess.
I'm sure Barnaby went to the police himself to make the accusers come forward. 
The flip side is that wouldn't you sue for slander if you were innocent?  Not sure how that works though.


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> People shouldn't be racist, bigoted,  sexist, etc. But in reality all this acceptance is a thin veneer over human nature.  People stick with their own.



I don't think so. All those things are beliefs as opposed to unintelligent human reactions. Aside from that, 'because they do it' should not be the go to excuse. The excuse most people use to explain their unintelligent human reactions. We can accept or reject individuals and groups on their behaviour and if that behaviour aligns with one's own, not on their skin colour, religion or sex. We are programmed by parents and society to a large degree so it does take some self reflection and unlearning. Some of those programmed beliefs aren't easy to overwrite but can be done.


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

Demise of the Slutwalk:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...n/news-story/348c498d23df8e8eeed807ecb16ff8eb



> .
> Tim Blair Blog Posts
> *FUN POLICE IMPOSE SJW-ENDORSED LYCRA PROHIBITION*
> Tim Blair, The Daily Telegraph
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> People shouldn't be racist, bigoted,  sexist, etc. But in reality all this acceptance is a thin veneer over human nature.  People stick with their own.
> 
> When shtf, its usually religion that fills the gap. But violence is the first go to stick.
> The places or people that I have been/ talked to, generally tell the same story. The things you think that are important aren't.
> ...




Check out what happened in Rhodeasia, when the black indigenous population, took over.
Then check out what is currently happening in South Africa, with regard farmers.
It is interesting reading, and really does show, it doesn't matter who is in control, racism happens.

No doubt when people of Asian heritage, far outnumber those of European heritage, in Australia.
The Europeans will feel disenfranchised, as the Aboriginals do, it is just a fact of a growing population in a constant sized World.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

https://www.theage.com.au/entertain...riginal-adoption-segment-20180313-p4z46h.html

It begs the question, why bother?
You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don't, both will incur compensation one way or another.

The sooner Asian domination in Australia happens, the better, then we can move on from this 'British guilt trip'. IMO


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> https://www.theage.com.au/entertain...riginal-adoption-segment-20180313-p4z46h.html
> 
> It begs the question, why bother?
> You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don't, both will incur compensation one way or another.
> ...





From my observation, the white guilt complex is usually megaphoned by people with non anglo surnames.... you know ... those people!


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> From my observation, the white guilt complex is usually megaphoned by people with non anglo surnames.... you know ... those people!



Actually its sprouted by whites. Check out any sjw page. Its the same whites that adopt other cultures  (eg: Aboriginal) and try and fight the fight for them. Guess what they don't want you too. Guilt then infects their minds into "I'm a victim" mode. 
Enough of the "poor me" syndrome. We basically won the "born lucky lotto".


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Actually its sprouted by whites. Check out any sjw page. Its the same whites that adopt other cultures  (eg: Aboriginal) and try and fight the fight for them. Guess what they don't want you too. Guilt then infects their minds into "I'm a victim" mode.
> Enough of the "poor me" syndrome. We basically won the "born lucky lotto".




Being picky I know, but are white anglo (british) or european white ... like e.g. the leader of the Greens?


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Being picky I know, but are white anglo (british) or european white ... like e.g. the leader of the Greens?




Indoctrinate don't discriminate.


I wonder if the Chinese destroy themselves as much as the whites do?

There does seem to be an agenda to push hate for white males. Or apologizing a damn lot.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)




----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)




----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/queer-engineering-purdue-social-justice-warriors/

it's like a virus:



> Having all but ruined humanities education, the Social Justice Warriors now turn to the STEM fields. Purdue University has hired Donna Riley as its new head of its School of Engineering Education.  Here’s an excerpt from Prof. Riley’s biography page at Smith College, where she taught for 13 years:


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

F#@kme!

The expected attack on white fellas, but also Trekians.

I'm starting to understand why gullible and impressionable minds promote this kind of hysteria ...  they are empty vessels with no purpose and no industry in life, preferring to take out that frustration  by making life miserable for everyone, especially whitey.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/42382/



> MIT librarian: Tech workplaces plastered with Star Trek posters, other geeky stuff is non-inclusive to women
> DAVE HUBER - ASSISTANT EDITOR •MARCH 5, 2018
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## wayneL (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/queer-engineering-purdue-social-justice-warriors/
> 
> it's like a virus:



Wow,  postmodern thought is really gonna work well in STEM! 

Hey, but then again, maybe my accountant can "feel" that my income is no more than 18k


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> F#@kme!
> 
> The expected attack on white fellas, but also Trekians.
> 
> ...





> Bourg, a self-described “butch and queer” cis woman and “feral librarian” who’s been “misidentified too many times to ignore,” noted she wants to bring to librarianship “a sociological lens and a feminist perspective.”



Enough said.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

For the young'ns

How the baby boomers were socially engineered:


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

Actually I meant this one ... check out PTA women's responses ...early Greens!!


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

Another triumph for all the advocates of children being frogmarched into a narcissist brave new world of individual gratification and self importance:


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

*"New* Another triumph for all the advocates of children being frogmarched into a narcissist brave new world of individual gratification and self importance:" Tisme the Glorious

You really are a nasty, unrelentless prat.  Does  it come naturally Tizzie or do you have spend loong hours practising your particular brand of sophisticated abuse on anything else with a pulse that can't escape your attentions ?  Your truly pathetic. In my view these posts degrade ASF and would certainly kick away many potential participants.
______________________________

Cyber Bullying is the common  bullying with wings and turbocharged.  Why would any reasonable person be so contemptuous of efforts to knock it on the head ?

(And this is not asking Tisme for a response. You have made your nasty, poisonous points. Keep em)


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Cyber Bullying is the common bullying with wings and turbocharged. Why would any reasonable person be so contemptuous of efforts to knock it on the head ?




How do you know that was his intention ?


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> How do you know that was his intention ?




"Another triumph for all the advocates of children being frogmarched into a narcissist brave new world of individual gratification and self importance:"  Tisme

That was the introduction to the video. I suggest such a contemptuous comment is the normal Tisme way to trash something he thoroughly despises.


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

Tisme said: ↑
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/queer-engineering-purdue-social-justice-warriors/

I read the article in full.  Thought the classtoom practices used in her teaching were excellent. Certainly going to make the students think more deeply and understand the topics in greater detail. 

Interestingly enough a number of other responses to the article  from engineers echoed that point.

Beaker Ben says:
 April 1, 2017 at 1:00 pm

I was ready to lampoon some goofy liberal college professor but I’m really underwhelmed by this. These teaching methods are unusual for a STEM college course, not because they aren’t beneficial to students but because they take so much extra work for the teacher. For example, it’s far easier for me to teach a subject than help prepare a group of students to teach it. Some of it is dressed up in wording that drives normal people crazy – “Breaking the Western hegemony” – but the example given is just to show students that other cultures made contributions to science and engineering also. It’s still thermodynamics.

Nick says:
 April 2, 2017 at 6:20 pm

From my own experience as an aerospace engineer (gas turbines engine actually), I do Agree fully with beaker Ben below. The names used (feminist theory?) sounds strange or cringe-worthy depending on your beliefs, but the actual teaching methods described are very useful and can work very well in STEM. But it does require a lot more work from the instructor/teacher and also from the students. Normalizing mistakes, especially, lead to group think when it is not done enough (intersestingly, it seems to be a very western thing (dare I say North American?). Anyways – terminology does sounds … extreme? But the practices described are good news and definitely not a concern.

Eric says:
 April 15, 2017 at 8:20 am

I wonder why a “conservative” publication feels compelled to go after fan favorite Mitch Daniel’s school? And one of the top engineering schools in the nation at that. Is it simply that she uses words too long for you to understand? There’s nothing in the articles you’ve cherry picked that indicates she’s not a top flight engineering professor – in fact, that she got hired at far-right Mitch Daniels own personal fiefdom, and a top engineering school that is very jealous of its reputation, indicates that she must be beyond good at teaching. Anyone but a conservative could figure that out.


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> *"New* Another triumph for all the advocates of children being frogmarched into a narcissist brave new world of individual gratification and self importance:" Tisme the Glorious
> 
> You really are a nasty, unrelentless prat.  Does  it come naturally Tizzie or do you have spend loong hours practising your particular brand of sophisticated abuse on anything else with a pulse that can't escape your attentions ?  Your truly pathetic. In my view these posts degrade ASF and would certainly kick away many potential participants.
> ______________________________
> ...




So it's OK for you to bully and spit vitriol like those kid's posts too? Early adopter no  doubt?


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> How do you know that was his intention ?




He doesn't, he just arcs up when he sees my posts,

Comprehension is not everyone's cuppa tea.


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> He doesn't, he just arcs up when he sees my posts,
> 
> Comprehension is not everyone's cuppa tea.




Nah Tisme I totally get you - you poisonous little toad. (Now that's proper vitriol isn't it  ?  The sort of stuff you think kids and everyone else should harden up to?  As you note so clearly in your post. )

It isn't hard to comprehend you. It's writ large.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2018)

Some people should join the Australian Cricket Team.


----------



## wayneL (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Nah Tisme I totally get you - you poisonous little toad. (Now that's proper vitriol isn't it  ?  The sort of stuff you think kids and everyone else should harden up to?  As you note so clearly in your post. )
> 
> It isn't hard to comprehend you. It's writ large.



Was that a microaggression?


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Nah Tisme I totally get you - you poisonous little toad. (Now that's proper vitriol isn't it  ?  The sort of stuff you think kids and everyone else should harden up to?  As you note so clearly in your post. )
> 
> It isn't hard to comprehend you. It's writ large.




 Still no comprende to Banbury Cross


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

Droll Tizze my old xart.  Very droll. 
But frankly I prefer this Banbury Cross.


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Droll Tizze my old xart.  Very droll.
> But frankly I prefer this Banbury Cross.






Next time I visit Scores in Manhattan, I'll let them know what a wild boy you are and ask for a visitor pass.

If you graduate that I'll get you into Treasures in Las Vegas..... see how caring and sharing I am.


----------



## Humid (23 March 2018)

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/03/22/10/15/dapto-death-ray-neighbour-dispute


Could this be Tisy& bas in real life......


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2018)

Humid said:


> https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/03/22/10/15/dapto-death-ray-neighbour-dispute
> 
> 
> Could this be Tisy& bas in real life......




Yeah but, yeah but, no.

If Bas was in the mix, he'd be attacking with his vast plurality of protagonist language skills.


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Next time I visit Scores in Manhattan, I'll let them know what a wild boy you are and ask for a visitor pass.
> 
> If you graduate that I'll get you into Treasures in Las Vegas..... see how caring and sharing I am.




That is SO so sweet Tizzie.. Really is.  Will you be going in your own personal Lear jet or can you borrow Don's plane ?  Are you sure you can get a leave pass for such a trip ? The basement oops office must be very cozy. Just can't see you leaving it for such wild adventures...


----------



## basilio (23 March 2018)

Scoring at Scores.
https://www.thecut.com/2015/12/robin-hood-strippers-scores-c-v-r.html


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2018)

Political correctness ruining the film industry  ?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...ling-australian-cinema-filmmaker-says/9571006


----------



## Value Collector (24 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Political correctness ruining the film industry  ?
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...ling-australian-cinema-filmmaker-says/9571006




They can make what ever movies they want, they just can’t get government funding unless they meet certain criteria.

If he wants to make a Christmas movie or an edgy film, just seek private funding, the industry shouldn’t be relying on government hand outs.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> If he wants to make a Christmas movie or an edgy film, just seek private funding, the industry shouldn’t be relying on government hand outs.




Yes I agree that there should be no government handouts for any film makers.


----------



## Tisme (24 March 2018)

basilio said:


> That is SO so sweet Tizzie.. Really is.  Will you be going in your own personal Lear jet or can you borrow Don's plane ?  Are you sure you can get a leave pass for such a trip ? The basement oops office must be very cozy. Just can't see you leaving it for such wild adventures...




Not wild for me, perhaps yourself? I take it you are declining the invitation so we'll leave that at that shall we.


----------



## Tisme (25 March 2018)

Jobs quota Essential Energy ...best qualifications and statistical fit for job:


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Jobs quota Essential Energy ...best qualifications and statistical fit for job:
> 
> View attachment 86725



Is that real?


----------



## Tisme (25 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Is that real?




yep


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> yep



Jesus help us.
If everyone is meant to be treated the same,  you have to wonder why you need to tick boxes


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Jesus help us.
> If everyone is meant to be treated the same,  you have to wonder why you need to tick boxes





Difficult time for employers. They have effectively had their competitive differentiation eliminated in favour of becoming a surrogate public service, for fear of govt backed litigants.

We have tertiary institutions giving out Kelloggs Degrees, vocational trainers signing off on 16 week apprenticeships, etc and employers are making job decisions based on skin colour, ethnicity and genital obsession.


----------



## wayneL (26 March 2018)

And this is why Asia is going to kick our ass.

Unless we collectively wake up it is the end of days for our culture.

Yes I do think it is that serious and yes the asians are laughing their backsides off at us.

It is utterly embarrassing


----------



## wayneL (26 March 2018)

These sjw pissants are worried that someone might have microaggressed them, meanwhile,  China is plotting total hegemony.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Difficult time for employers. They have effectively had their competitive differentiation eliminated in favour of becoming a surrogate public service, for fear of govt backed litigants.
> 
> We have tertiary institutions giving out Kelloggs Degrees, vocational trainers signing off on 16 week apprenticeships, etc and employers are making job decisions based on skin colour, ethnicity and genital obsession.




The TAFE sector has been ruined by neglect for decades and Christopher Pyne and Co have tried to do the same to the Uni's.

Time to go back to the old days. Up the standards, make sure only the best (not the richest) go to Uni and do courses that are in demand, and strengthen the TAFE sector so we can once again train electricians, diesel mechanics and other skills that we need.


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Difficult time for employers. They have effectively had their competitive differentiation eliminated in favour of becoming a surrogate public service, for fear of govt backed litigants.
> 
> We have tertiary institutions giving out Kelloggs Degrees, *vocational trainers signing off on 16 week apprenticeships*, etc and employers are making job decisions based on skin colour, ethnicity and genital obsession.





SirRumpole said:


> The TAFE sector has been ruined by neglect for decades and Christopher Pyne and Co have tried to do the same to the Uni's.
> 
> Time to go back to the old days. Up the standards, make sure only the best (not the richest) go to Uni and do courses that are in demand, and *strengthen the TAFE sector so we can once again train electricians, diesel mechanics and other skills that we need*.



Dedicated apprentice training was phased out when businesses started downsizing and becoming more efficent in the 90's. The apprentices that were given a lower standard of training are now the tradespeople of today. Obviously their lower standard skills and work ethics are passed on to present apprentices. Also as Tisme pointed out the employers choice of apprentice doesn't address suitability and commitment nowadays, rather a percentage of the workforce has to be x, y or z.
It is disappointing to see so many apathetic Aussie workers being given jobs. This could also be a byproduct of employer retention policies where longevity and reward for commited employees is becoming less so.


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> And this is why Asia is going to kick our ass.
> 
> Unless we collectively wake up it is the end of days for our culture.
> 
> ...



I strongly agree with this.
Its not going to end well for us.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> And this is why Asia is going to kick our ass.
> 
> Unless we collectively wake up it is the end of days for our culture.
> 
> ...




Asia is a long way from kicking our ass. When they do, it's because they changed the way they treat their exploited workers and clean up their environment... and maybe pay some respect for the minorities and doing things like providing access ramps for the disabled.

The problem with Western economies lately is that we're one foot into the future and a thousand feet still left back in the 20th century.

The futurists are dreaming some stupid crap like going to space for a holiday and heading to Mars for some reason. Next level down are simple middle-man kind of business like most retailers and time-wasting crap call social-networks that sells people's privacy then apologise for it like they didn't know how their business model operate.

Then there's your consultants and financial wizards on the stock, the commodity, the futures, the real estate the you name it market. 

The stuff they trade, sell, move between... most of them are manufactured overseas, by exploited workers working for companies who pays them diddly and screw their living environment in one go.

But we're told that we should compete against that. Do we really want to?

I know, we have no choice it seem. 

Maybe educate the kids, retrain the old, make investment to entice that capitalism nonsense to make use of them. Compete on a different ground. 

But yea, we're screwed the way we're going.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The TAFE sector has been ruined by neglect for decades and Christopher Pyne and Co have tried to do the same to the Uni's.
> 
> Time to go back to the old days. Up the standards, make sure only the best (not the richest) go to Uni and do courses that are in demand, and strengthen the TAFE sector so we can once again train electricians, diesel mechanics and other skills that we need.




Our education system, at both the "higher" and the technical/trade level, seem to me to be training specialists only. 

I mean it's good to specialise as it mean more pay, higher quality and all that. But we need to widen up that definition a bit. 

You have highly paid, and presumably very smart, people who know very little outside of their field. Maybe they don't need to, but a bit of knowledge around your specialty would be helpful.

Then there are trades who are very good at one thing but doesn't know anything related to it. For example, a concretor know how to pour and level concrete but not trained on how to set out the building, or read a freaking construction/engineering plan. There are brickies who can lay bricks well but don't know how to set out or level... and with time and budget being tight, they actually learn, by themselves, on the job as they do it. 

We're told we're in a fast changing economy... yet we're teaching people one skill set. Yea, that's not going to help them when their job redundant.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Jobs quota Essential Energy ...best qualifications and statistical fit for job:
> 
> View attachment 86725




You sure you answered that correctly? No disability? 

Maybe the data collected can be use against equal opportunity. Who knows. Maybe it showed too many colored folks here so better add a few Whities to the mix.


----------



## wayneL (26 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Asia is a long way from kicking our ass. When they do, it's because they changed the way they treat their exploited workers and clean up their environment... and maybe pay some respect for the minorities and doing things like providing access ramps for the disabled.
> 
> The problem with Western economies lately is that we're one foot into the future and a thousand feet still left back in the 20th century.
> 
> ...



It's  not economic,  Grasshopper,  as dire a that situation is. 

It's cultural,  aided  and abetted by...  Ourselves


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2018)

wayneL said:


> It's  not economic,  Grasshopper,  as dire a that situation is.
> 
> It's cultural,  aided  and abetted by...  Ourselves




Seeing how we're multi-cultural... aren't we already winning?

I mean, the Chinese and Japanese all think that because their "countrymen" are the one and the same, are brothers... they become too trusting and complacent. 

We in the West, we know who's who and who's from where (most of the time). It keeps us sharp, doesn't it? 

Seriously though, I find Western cultures a lot better than Asians. Not because Western culture are superior or such, but it's more tolerant. 

There are good and bad in every culture... just that in a multi-cultural society, you get to see it better and can choose to ignore the crappy stuff and adopt the better, more progressive part. 

btw, it's no longer "multi-cultural". It's "Harmony". Sing as one... be as one... back to White now I guess. None of that diversity nonsense I guess.


----------



## Tisme (27 March 2018)

Mark Latham Column:



> HOW UNIVERSITY EMPLOYMENT QUOTAS ARE HURTING OUR KIDS’ EDUCATION
> 
> Mark Latham’s Tuesday Column:
> 
> ...


----------



## bellenuit (27 March 2018)




----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The TAFE sector has been ruined by neglect for decades and Christopher Pyne and Co have tried to do the same to the Uni's.
> 
> Time to go back to the old days. Up the standards, make sure only the best (not the richest) go to Uni and do courses that are in demand, and strengthen the TAFE sector so we can once again train electricians, diesel mechanics and other skills that we need.




I think you will find if you go back in history, labor pushed for 50% of kids to finish year 12 and go to uni, constantly making statements to apportion blame doesn't make it correct.

Otherwise I do agree with you, that we need to go back to the days, when kids were encouraged to pursue an education and employment commensurate with their abilities.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I think you will find if you go back in history, labor pushed for 50% of kids to finish year 12 and go to uni, constantly making statements to apportion blame doesn't make it correct.




Sure, I'm quite prepared to blame Labor for "reverse elitism", as usual their hearts sometimes overrule their heads. Trying to get more people to uni doing whatever degrees the students wanted as the end result instead of managing the demand for courses on the basis of economic need was a failing which should be corrected.


----------



## wayneL (28 March 2018)




----------



## luutzu (28 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I think you will find if you go back in history, labor pushed for 50% of kids to finish year 12 and go to uni, constantly making statements to apportion blame doesn't make it correct.
> 
> Otherwise I do agree with you, that we need to go back to the days, when kids were encouraged to pursue an education and employment commensurate with their abilities.




With the exception of physical disability, we're all capable of doing whatever it is we're taught to do. 

Sure, some would find it easier than others to do certain line of work. Some are "naturally" talented... but if given the opportunity, all human are capable. 

Was listening to Confucius' The Analects... If your plan is one year, plant rice; if ten years, plant trees. If your plan is 100 years, educate children.

Another one... Education breeds confidence. Confidence breeds hope. Hope breeds peace.


I find that those who don't excel at schools are often the smarter ones. I mean, they're too smart to take those boring crap seriously when there's a whole world out there to see and learn.

But of course when they do not rote learn and behave, they either fail to get into uni or leave school early. Get a job, get a family and a mortgage... little to no cash, little opportunities to read and learn from others... and pretty soon their social status and mental acuity decline and are seen as either coolies or labourers compare to the "smart" doctors and lawyers and other rich people.


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2018)

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/new...se-of-genderneutral-parenting-20180409-h0yjzc

One can only hope I'm around to see how the current SJWs handle this when they become Grandthems and can't cope with the sterile society and family structure they have spawned. By then handling a baby will probably need a birthcow licence and anyone touching it will be a pervert.



> When Bobby McCullough and Lesley Fleishman, a couple from Brooklyn, New York, agreed that they were going to raise their child as a "theyby" — an individual who's raised as neither a girl nor a boy specifically until the child is old enough to vocalise their own gender — it was only after a lot of careful consideration . . . and some social media research.
> 
> In fact, Bobby first came across the concept when he saw a news article about how a Canadian baby was issued a genderless birth certificate. The soon-to-be father joined a Facebook group that was dedicated to the "theyby" movement.
> He told _New York Magazine_ that the gender-neutral parenting style aligned with how he and Lesley view gender constructs.
> ...


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2018)

For those who can handle critical thinking and many lettered words:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/H...nd1Z0NpUldsMGRUcnZLSGNqU1Z1cHhDbWhkZFVUcmlNNA


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2018)

Twatter is great for cutting to the chase.

I wonder what surnames and pinky bits get you a seat on the RDC and $340k of taxpayer money/annum.



> @KeiraSavage00 Apr 11
> 
> Race Discrimination Commissioner Tim Soutphommasane says Australian CEO's, Academics, Politians are 'Too White'. He calls for 'cultural targets & quotas' instead of merit based hiring. Leave your resume at home next job interview, take your Ancestry DNA results instead. #auspol


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2018)

Body identity:


----------



## basilio (13 April 2018)

You can certainly choose your "sources for stories" can't you Tisme?

Thoughtful, articulate, well researched writers .... Nooo. Instead you use Paul Joseph Watson. Alt Right troller for Info wars. Incessant woman hater. Peddler of conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory.


----------



## cynic (13 April 2018)

basilio said:


> You can certainly choose your "sources for stories" can't you Tisme?
> 
> Thoughtful, articulate, well researched writers .... Nooo. Instead you use Paul Joseph Watson. Alt Right troller for Info wars. Incessant woman hater. Peddler of conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory.



Not sure how you justify your claims here bas, especially when just a couple of posts earlier, Tisme posted an insightful opinion piece, authored by none other than:
"_Lyell Asher is an associate professor of English at Lewis & Clark College."_


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2018)

cynic said:


> Not sure how you justify your claims here bas, especially when just a couple of posts earlier, Tisme posted an insightful opinion piece, authored by none other than:
> "_Lyell Asher is an associate professor of English at Lewis & Clark College."_





he's just trolling for the sake of bathing in my afterglow. He's like the kid who hangs around the big boys hoping for recognition. With some luck he'll form a duet with the twit and provide a semblance of worthwhile "constructive" criticism.


----------



## basilio (13 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> he's just trolling for the sake of bathing in my afterglow. He's like the kid who hangs around the big boys hoping for recognition. With some luck he'll form a duet with the twit and provide a semblance of worthwhile "constructive" criticism.




Well thank you Tizzie ! And a like as well !  My God what is the world coming to. 

I do offer constructive comments and observations Tizzie but frankly you can't get it. And really ...you're just not worth the trouble of talking to.


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2018)

It's tough outside the safe zone eh bas?


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> Well thank you Tizzie ! And a like as well !  My God what is the world coming to.
> 
> I do offer constructive comments and observations Tizzie but frankly you can't get it. And really ...you're just not worth the trouble of talking to.





LOL


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

Conrad's usual wordsmithing:

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/con...-christians-to-confronting-the-abortion-issue



> It is reasonable to assume that the sociopolitical disease of oppressive political correctness will become more constricting and life-threatening to the human capacity for deductive reasoning and liberality of mind until it is forcefully attacked by a widely applied cultural germicide. Instances are regularly reported of steadily more virulent outbreaks of this affliction, which is now so pernicious and widespread, millions of Canadian adults are carriers of it. A particularly alarming recent outburst was when the federal government decreed that applicants for the Canada Summer Jobs Program check off (not sign, but the effect is the same) an “attestation” that “the job and” (the applicant organization’s) “core mandate respect individual human rights in Canada, including the values underlying the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as well as other rights. These include reproductive rights and the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, religion, race, national or ethnic origin, colour, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation or gender identity or expression.”
> 
> In an Applicant Guide, it is further stipulated that “The government recognizes that women’s rights are human rights.” (Surely no one now contests that and the point need not be laboured.) However, “This includes sexual and reproductive rights — and the right to access safe and legal abortions. These rights are at the core of the Government of Canada’s foreign and domestic policies.” No application would be considered without the attestation being checked as agreed to by the summer job program applicant.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

wayneL said:


> It's tough outside the safe zone eh bas?




Doesn't take much does it  ,  even when "doing him slowly".


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> he's just trolling for the sake of bathing in my afterglow. He's like the kid who hangs around the big boys hoping for recognition. With some luck he'll form a duet with the twit and provide a semblance of worthwhile "constructive" criticism.




That is an interesting insight Tisme.

You have never left the  playground have you ? You still glory in the days you relentlessly dominated your social groups and enforced your position with acolytes by ridiculing or terrorising suitable victims.

Perhaps it's time to cool your heels with a week of lunch time detentions outside the DP's office and a behaviour card in class.
Or maybe we can really have a go on ASF and turn it into a proper riot ? Yeah ?


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> That is an interesting insight Tisme.
> 
> You have never left the  playground have you ? You still glory in the days you relentlessly dominated your social groups and enforced your position with acolytes by ridiculing or terrorising suitable victims.
> 
> ...




Mate you already played all your cards with the constant trolling, coarse language and personal insults directed at me... you are on record. You were played and yet even when you try to change the landscape you repeat the same errors.

I don't "terrorise" anyone, I just put up incontrovertible facts that some people find intimidating and contestable. You can always tell a poster in a weak position :- they use incongruous discordant issues to argue, they cherrypick out of context facts, argue for the sake of arguing, character assassinate, they regurgitate obsequious drone mantra, servile to political pop culture, dodgy pedigree in discussion board protocols of e.g. irony, etc.

The recent attack posts by our resident member with the paranha nic is worth you revisiting to see how displaced emotions, illogical claptrap and consequent backpeddling makes him vulnerable to the big boys in the playground.

You're an educator and you are not a fool, you should be open to new ideas and alternative opinions....just saying.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

New Ideas . Alternative opinions Tisme ? Sure. No probs.

Alternative facts on the glories of white civililisation, repeated poisonous barbs at women,  at the entire Muslim community, the gay community, and anyone who questions these atttacks,  the snide comments on the Jewish conspiracy. Nuh. 

"You don't terrorise anyone " Don't make me laugh...  I've sat opposite any number of little Tismes bleating the same dribble while other staff members are dealing with the detritus left behind the "non  terrorisers". It's just pure BS.


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> New Ideas . Alternative opinions Tisme ? Sure. No probs.
> 
> Alternative facts on the glories of white civililisation, repeated poisonous barbs at women,  at the entire Muslim community, the gay community, and anyone who questions these atttacks,  the snide comments on the Jewish conspiracy. Nuh.
> 
> "You don't terrorise anyone " Don't make me laugh...  I've sat opposite any number of little Tismes bleating the same dribble while other staff members are dealing with the detritus left behind the "non  terrorisers". It's just pure BS.





You're just angry with your inner conflicts and I'm the convenient whipping boy. It's not a betrayal of conscience to accede to your natural instinct and discard the engineered garbage you have ingested over the years of reading the marxist rule books that are published bureaucratic policy.... public servants are inclined to sub tribal inculcation ... it's safe.

Remember those men you admired when you were a boy, the positive strong willed blokes who weren't interested in the paltry and petty, men's men ... you could be that person.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

Yes,  I'm angry with inner conflicts Tisme. Right on.

I'm devastated that we have allowed the self interested liars in the fossil fuel industry and their camp followers to wreck our capacity to tackle the most overwhelming problem we have ever faced - human cause climate change. I have to keep a lid on that because as the world heats up I can only see chaos.

I'm devastated at the demonisation of all Muslims as potential terrorists. When one sees the destruction caused by the invasion of Iraq on a lie and the ongoing mess in Syria and elsewhere all fueled by Western greed for oil .. Yeah not happy.

And "men's men" ?  Those "positive, strong willed blokes who wern't interested in the paltry and petty" ?  Right on Tisme. But *what exactly* are those fine sentiments supposed to mean ?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> I'm devastated at the demonisation of all Muslims as potential terrorists.




Of course not all Muslims are terrorists, but if they align with a violent ideology then they are potential terrorists and there is no denying that they are in our midst and prepared to strike.

A small number certainly, but a threat nonetheless.


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> Yes,  I'm angry with inner conflicts Tisme. Right on.
> 
> I'm devastated that we have allowed the self interested liars in the fossil fuel industry and their camp followers to wreck our capacity to tackle the most overwhelming problem we have ever faced - human cause climate change. I have to keep a lid on that because as the world heats up I can only see chaos.
> 
> ...




So you personify your "devastation" by constantly denigrating me? What, in your behaviours, doesn't mirror the attack on western culture being waged by the outsiders? Ever stopped to think that it is the legacy and industry of the west that allows you the luxury to white ant it?


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

Netflix also engineering & inventing racial and cultural schisms. Even the target audiences are getting antsy at being type cast in society under the cloak of the fallacious notion of workable multiculturalsim :

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a18817/netflix-algorithms-black-movies/


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> So you personify your "devastation" by constantly denigrating me? What, in your behaviours, doesn't mirror the attack on western culture being waged by the outsiders? Ever stopped to think that it is the legacy and industry of the west that allows you the luxury to white ant it?




Nope. I challenge your nastiness, your depiction of western superiority, your attacks on Muslims, your attacks on women, gays and those you don't support your attacks.
Your attempt to classify these as part of some attack on  true Western culture is dribble.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course not all Muslims are terrorists, but if they align with a violent ideology then they are potential terrorists and there is no denying that they are in our midst and prepared to strike.
> 
> A small number certainly, but a threat nonetheless.




Hmm. So if I read you correctly your saying
1) The Islamic religion is in itself a violent ideology (*Utterly*  disagree with that premise.)
2) Therefore anyone who says they are a Muslim is a potential terrorist.
3) They are all around us and prepared to strike  at any time.

Want to re-consider that proposition Rumpy ?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> Hmm. So if I read you correctly your saying
> 1) The Islamic religion is in itself a violent ideology (*Utterly*  disagree with that premise.)
> 2) Therefore anyone who says they are a Muslim is a potential terrorist.
> 3) They are all around us and prepared to strike  at any time.
> ...




Bas, I've said before that you only need to look at countries where Islam is the religion and the law.

Floggings, beheadings, child slavery, denigration of women and death for apostates.

If we let this religion spread here in this country, we are in a lot of trouble.

What is to reconsider ?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2018)

i know this is too long but is good & funny please read to the end.

*Company Memo*
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:          All Employees
DATE:    November 24, 2015
RE:        Gala Christmas Party
I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23rd, starting at noon in the private function room at the Grill House.
There will be a cash bar and plenty of drinks!  We'll have a small band playing traditional carols... feel free to sing along.  And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus!
A Christmas tree will be lit at 1:00 PM.  Exchanges of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10.00 to make the giving of gifts easy for everyone's pockets.
This gathering is only for employees!
Our CEO will make a special announcement at that time!
Merry Christmas to you and your family,
Patty
*Company Memo*
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:          All Employees
DATE:    November 25 2015
RE:        Gala  Holiday  Party
In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees.  We recognize that  Hanukkah is an important holiday, which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year.
However, from now on,  we're calling it our "Holiday Party."  The same policy applies to any other employees who are not Christians and to those still celebrating Reconciliation Day.
There will be no Christmas tree and no Christmas carols will be sung.
We will have other types of music for your enjoyment.
Happy now?
Happy Holidays to you and your family,
Patty
*Company Memo*
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:        All Employees
DATE:    November 27, 2015
RE:          Holiday  Party
Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table, you didn't sign your name...
I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that  reads, "AA Only", you wouldn't be anonymous anymore.  How am I supposed to handle this?
Somebody?
And sorry, but forget about the gift exchange, no gifts are allowed since the union members feel that $10.00 is too much money and the executives believe $10.00 is a little chintzy.
REMEMBER: NO GIFTS EXCHANGE WILL BE ALLOWED.
Patty
*Company Memo*
FROM:  Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
To:        All Employees
DATE:    November 28, 2015
RE:        Generic  Holiday  Party
What a diverse group we are!  I had no idea that December 20th begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating and drinking during daylight hours.
There goes the party!  Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon at this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employees' beliefs.  Perhaps the Grill House can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party or else package everything for you to take it home in little foil doggy baggy.  Will that work?
Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Weight Watchers to sit farthest from the dessert buffet, and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms.
Gays are allowed to sit with each other.  Lesbians do not have to sit with Gay men, each group will have their own table.
Yes, there will be flower arrangement for the Gay men's table.
To the person asking permission to cross dress, the Grill House asks that no cross-dressing be allowed, apparently because of concerns about confusion in the restrooms.  Sorry.
We will have booster seats for short people.
Low-fat food will be available for those on a diet.
I am sorry to report that we cannot control the amount of salt used in the food .  The Grill House suggests that people with high blood pressure taste a bite first.
There will be fresh "low sugar" fruits as dessert for diabetics, but the restaurant cannot supply "no sugar" desserts. Sorry!
Did I miss anything?!?!?
Patty
*Company Memo*
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:          All Friggin Employees
DATE:    November  29, 2015
RE:          The Friggin Holiday Party
I've had it with you vegetarian pricks!!!  We're going to keep this party at the Grill House whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the "grill of death," as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your friggin salad bar, including organic tomatoes.
But you know, tomatoes have feelings, too.  They scream when you slice them.  I've heard them scream.  I'm hearing them scream right NOW!
The rest of you friggin weirdoes can kiss my ass.  I hope you all have a rotten holiday!
Drive drunk and die,
The Bitch from Hell!!!
*Company Memo*
FROM:  Joan Bishop, *Acting Human Resources Director*
DATE:    November  31, 2012
RE:        Patty Lewis and  Holiday  Party
I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery from her recent nervous breakdown and I'll continue to forward your cards to her at the asylum.
In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.
Happy Whatever!
Joan


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

We do not want to  become fundamentalist Islamic states. In fact we also don't want to be ruled by Orthodox Jews or the Westbro Baptist Church. But tarring 1.5 billion people with the one brush and wanting to treat them all like potential terroriists is well and truly over the top.

I came across a good source of information on Islam which could broaden the discussion. 

https://theconversation.com/why-is-islam-so-different-in-different-countries-51804

The  full complement of articles can be found here.
https://theconversation.com/au/topics/understanding-islamic-state-24785


----------



## basilio (14 April 2018)

Re The Christams Party
Oldie but goodie .!!


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> But tarring 1.5 billion people with the one brush and wanting to treat them all like potential terroriists is well and truly over the top.




Well, I guess the problem is, if we don't know who are terrorists and who are not, what do we do ?


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> We do not want to  become fundamentalist Islamic states. In fact we also don't want to be ruled by Orthodox Jews or the Westbro Baptist Church. But tarring 1.5 billion people with the one brush and wanting to treat them all like potential terroriists is well and truly over the top.
> Y
> I came across a good source of information on Islam which could broaden the discussion.
> 
> ...



The terrorist issue is important,  but the least of the worries.  The big concern is cultural incongruity. There are some Muslim societies culturally congruent with ours, most aren't however. 

That is the issue, culture,  not religion... Hence culturally incongruous Christians, or whatever. 

Contrast Malayan, v Arabic Muslims. 

Huge difference.


----------



## Tisme (14 April 2018)

basilio said:


> Nope. I challenge your nastiness



 I'm not nasty, just forthright 







> , your depiction of western superiority,



 you expect me to betray my birthright? 







> your attacks on Muslims,



 not the people, but the disease 







> your attacks on women, gays



 never, that's you not reading what I write because of rage 







> and those you don't support your attacks.



 only when they ride in with guns blazing or they are just plain stupid people



> Your attempt to classify these as part of some attack on  true Western culture is dribble.



 You are patently out to sabotage western values, it's so chumpy I could carve it, which is why I suspect you are not an anglo breed, but someone who carries childhood baggage of hurt feelings from your peers and using skin tone as an excuse for it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2018)

Islam subjugates women, even in non Muslim countries.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-18/abused-muslim-women-denied-right-to-divorce/9632772


----------



## Tisme (30 April 2018)

Nearly every mass killer is a man.... shame on you!




> Nearly every mass killer is a man. We should all be talking more about that
> 
> 
> 
> ...




https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men


----------



## moXJO (30 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Nearly every mass killer is a man.... shame on you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow.... Any lunatic thought gets published these days.

I guess the patriarchy won't let the women out of the kitchen to commit mass murder


----------



## qldfrog (30 April 2018)

Hi Basilio:


basilio said:


> Hmm. So if I read you correctly your saying
> 1) The Islamic religion is in itself a violent ideology (*Utterly*  disagree with that premise.)
> YES
> 2) Therefore anyone who says they are a Muslim is a potential terrorist.
> ...


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Nearly every mass killer is a man.... shame on you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do we know whether those mass murderers are slaughtering more men than women?
If so, maybe it could be argued that they are doing a public service by reducing the level of "toxic masculinity" in society!!


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun" 

2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 

3. Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". 

4. Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"  

5. Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 

6. Quran 4:34: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." 

7. Quran 4:24 "Forbidden to you are married women, except those whom you own as slave

Interesting that people still don't see Islam as being evil.


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> 1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"
> 
> 2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
> 
> ...



Some interesting excerpts!
Were those in keeping with the surrounding context?
Out of interest, have you read the Quran in its entirety?
I haven't, but based upon the muslims I have personally encountered, a  number of those cited verses , do not appear to be truly representative of their lifestyle.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> 1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"
> 
> 2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
> 
> ...




We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible? 

And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

Nice, good to know that you guys support beating up your wife if she disobeys you. Cynic then I would welcome those people you mention because they aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible?
> 
> And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.



Luutzu, happy to do a comparison count of you finding all the evil verses in the old testament vs the Quran. There are many more where that came from. PS Not religious by the way before anyone uses ad hominem.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Luutzu, happy to do a comparison count of you finding all the evil verses in the old testament vs the Quran. There are many more where that came from. PS Not religious by the way before anyone uses ad hominem.




Have you met Value Collector 

All religious text are full of violence and rubbish. Most who follow it ignore a whole lot of stuff, get to the bits where if they go worship daily/weekly, pay a fee to the preacher and volunteer to clean up or recruit, they have a good chance of going to Heaven.


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Nice, good to know that you guys support beating up your wife if she disobeys you. Cynic then I would welcome those people you mention because they aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran



Where in my post did you identify me as expressing support for the beating of wives?!

Please do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly, or not at all!


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

cynic said:


> Where in my post did you identify me as expressing support for the beating of wives?!
> 
> Please do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly, or not at all!



I was being sarcastic given I thought you were defending those verses. You can google just the verse numbers itself and see the context.


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> I was being sarcastic given I thought you were defending those verses. You can google just the verse numbers itself and see the context.



Okay, thanks for clarifying.
From your responses, would I be correct in deducing that you haven't read the Quran in  its entirety?

Would I also be correct in deducing, that you hold a preference to judging adherence to Islam, based upon departure from a select few, isolated samplings, rather than observation of the overall level of adherence to the doctrine in its entirety?


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

cynic said:


> Okay, thanks for clarifying.
> From your responses, would I be correct in deducing that you haven't read the Quran in  its entirety?
> 
> Would I also be correct in deducing, that you hold a preference to judging adherence to Islam, based upon departure from a select few, isolated samplings, rather than observation of the overall level of adherence to the doctrine in its entirety?



No I haven't, most would probably have not either what is your point? I once saw a debate where a "Muslim" girl couldn't even name the five pillars of her faith and she got caught out for that. Sometimes these people just don't know the full extent of their religion and just label themselves as such. But does it still make those verses any less evil? I don't know what preferences you are referring to, but I read and I see that it's ok to beat your wife if she disobeys you or behead all non-believers and make my judgement from what I have read as being evil, as simple as that. If I'm not mistaken, your logic is because the Quran has some good parts then it should excuse the bad parts like beating your wife? Is that right?


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

TikoMike said:


> No I haven't, most would probably have not either what is your point? I once saw a debate where a "Muslim" girl couldn't even name the five pillars of her faith and she got caught out for that. Sometimes these people just don't know the full extent of their religion and just label themselves as such. But does it still make those verses any less evil? I don't know what preferences you are referring to, but I read and I see that it's ok to beat your wife if she disobeys you or behead all non-believers and make my judgement from what I have read as being evil, as simple as that. If I'm not mistaken, your logic is because the Quran has some good parts then it should excuse the bad parts like beating your wife? Is that right?



You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".

I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
So I do not feel that I understand the tree well enough, to confidently predict the fruit it will produce.
So I have chosen to judge the tree, to date, according to the fruit that I happen to have witnessed it producing.

Rather than accede to an invitation to excuse specific verses, based upon the presence of others, my preference is to highlight my concerns, about the generalisation of the muslim populace, by hypothetical application of a similar methodology and logic to your own.

If one were to "cherry pick" a few verses from the Quran, which clearly extolled the virtues of peaceful behaviour and prohibited needlessly harmful acts in relation to the treatment of others, would one then be entitled to declare that many of the jihadi terrorist acts, witnessed to date, were not performed by true practitioners of Islam, because they were "not following the rules of the Quran" ?

Edit: futhermore,would one also be then entitled to express amazement, at people still not recognising Islam as being good?


----------



## TikoMike (30 April 2018)

cynic said:


> You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
> You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".
> 
> I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
> ...




Why are you all of sudden trying to talk like an academic and using words that are not commonly used? But anyway I will try to answer with what I am interpreting what you are trying to say.

If I am cherry picking verses then you are also cherry picking just the "virtuous" verses to say that it is not evil, so it's a fallacy to use that argument. By the way there are many many more "evil" verses than the ones I quoted.

Regarding the Jihadi part, oh but there is a high chance they are following all the rules of the Quran, one might say better than any other so called follower of Islam. They behead all non-believers and have their wives covered and beat the **** out of them if they don't obey. They will also face a cow towards the city of Mecca, cut its throat and let it bleed out before eating it for it to be halal. It would seem they follow much of it to a tee. How is it that you know they don't follow the "virtuous" parts of the Quran, are you with them 24/7 and also know how often they pray? You can watch how faithful they are to Islam with the beheadings, the stoning of women and other violent parts of the Quran available on many "watch people die" websites showing these videos. There is usually a new video of these acts every day popping up showing how faithful they are to Islam.


----------



## fiftyeight (30 April 2018)

cynic said:


> You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
> You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".
> 
> I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
> ...




If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.


----------



## cynic (30 April 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.



When did I ever say that cherry picking of verses, in pursuit of one's hateful agenda, was reasonable?
I believe that my posts here are highlighting the irrationality of such an approach!!
Was I failing to deliver on the abovementioned intention?


----------



## cynic (1 May 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Why are you all of sudden trying to talk like an academic and using words that are not commonly used? But anyway I will try to answer with what I am interpreting what you are trying to say.
> 
> If I am cherry picking verses then you are also cherry picking just the "virtuous" verses to say that it is not evil, so it's a fallacy to use that argument. By the way there are many many more "evil" verses than the ones I quoted.
> 
> Regarding the Jihadi part, oh but there is a high chance they are following all the rules of the Quran, one might say better than any other so called follower of Islam. They behead all non-believers and have their wives covered and beat the **** out of them if they don't obey. They will also face a cow towards the city of Mecca, cut its throat and let it bleed out before eating it for it to be halal. It would seem they follow much of it to a tee. How is it that you know they don't follow the "virtuous" parts of the Quran, are you with them 24/7 and also know how often they pray? You can watch how faithful they are to Islam with the beheadings, the stoning of women and other violent parts of the Quran available on many "watch people die" websites showing these videos. There is usually a new video of these acts every day popping up showing how faithful they are to Islam.



I once accidentally interrupted a work colleague during one of his daily prayer sessions.

From my experience of him, he was devoutly religious, and not at all violent. 

So are you trying to tell me that you somehow know, he wasn't following "much of it to a tee", when he neglected to behead me and strike off my fingertips?

Given that, by your own admission, you are not acquainted with all verses, how did you determine the nonexistence of instructions, forbidding needless acts of violence?


----------



## Darc Knight (1 May 2018)

There are certainly voilent verses in the Quran particularly the verses of Mohamed, whereas Christianity, being based on the New Testament is about forgiving everything. Before someone posts a verse from the Old Testament remember the New Testament teaches forgiveness even if something is a Sin according to the Old Testament.

I do think we need to "push back" against Islam but still be tolerant and inclusive.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible?
> 
> And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.





New Testament revises the old testament.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.




Who told you that?


----------



## fiftyeight (1 May 2018)

cynic said:


> When did I ever say that cherry picking of verses, in pursuit of one's hateful agenda, was reasonable?
> I believe that my posts here are highlighting the irrationality of such an approach!!
> Was I failing to deliver on the abovementioned intention?




It was not aimed at you specifically, I could of worded it better. Theists do quote specific verses to justify positions for both good and bad. Early morning TV and my brief time at a cathloic school were filled with quoting verses.


----------



## fiftyeight (1 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Who told you that?



It was an acid flashback


----------



## wayneL (1 May 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.



I find both scenarios disingenuous.  As pointed out above,  the new testament supercedes the old. 

In fact,  I think a case could be made, Via the NT,  that any form of religious legalism is a crock of shyte and not supportable in the Christian context (as much as organized churches may try).


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> New Testament revises the old testament.




Wait, it's not the 2nd part of a trilogy.


----------



## cynic (1 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wait, it's not the 2nd part of a trilogy.



Aren't you forgetting about the recently discovered Gospel according to Noirua which, God willing, may serve as the Newer Testament.

And failing that, the zealous efforts of antitheistic crusaders, are sure to provide us their revisionary instalment! 

That is, of course, presuming they don't simply burn and delete every copy, replacing it with a manifesto of "tried before and failed, but let's pretend all that never really happened, so this can be declared as progressive" ideology.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wait, it's not the 2nd part of a trilogy.




Of course it is, but policy at the moment is the second act


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash



> *Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash*
> 
> After criticism of student Keziah Daum’s Twitter post showing her wearing the traditional _qipao_, Chinese commenters call it cultural appreciation, not appropriation
> 
> ...


----------



## bellenuit (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash




This claim of cultural appropriation was nicely dismissed by Machael Shermer (I think) when he said: _Culture *IS* appropriation._

And I would add, the more appropriation the richer the culture.


----------



## cynic (2 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> ...
> 
> And I would add, the more appropriation the richer the culture.



Wouldn't that depend upon what it is that is actually being appropriated, and whether or not it can readily assimilate with, (rather than assault) extant cultural values?


----------



## bellenuit (2 May 2018)

cynic said:


> Wouldn't that depend upon what it is that is actually being appropriated, and whether or not it can readily assimilate with, (rather than assault) extant cultural values?




It would be if that was how it happened. But it is not something that is controlled by a committee where someone decides what is good or bad about another culture and thus determines what should be appropriated or rejected.

The reality is that for various historical and geographic reasons such as migration, war, travel, trade, refuge etc. different cultures have come in contact with each other and traits from each get absorbed into a new culture. What gets absorbed will likely be those traits that seem most beneficial to the new emerging culture or in some cases those traits that are most dominant. 

The fact that this commingling has been positive in general is demonstrated by the fact that those cultures that have undergone considerable intermixing usually are regarded as more advanced in areas like science, music, medicine, literature etc.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

Frank Chung@franks_chung




news.com.auMAY 1, 20182:23PM


“_Blackie Blackie Brown _is a wild, twisted, hilarious origin story by provocative social commentator Nakkiah Lui,” the play’s synopsis reads. “Add a mystical quest, bloodcurdling vengeance and a dose of potent political venom, and a new superhero is born.”

The story follows “mild-mannered archaeologist Dr Jacqueline Black”, played by Megan Wilding, who uncovers a mass grave “somewhere in the Australian bush”.

“She picks up a skull and is overpowered by the spirit of her great-great-grandmother ... BAM! Blackie Blackie Brown has arrived and she is a cold-blooded vigilante,” the website says.

_*“Her mission: kill all the descendants of the men who massacred her ancestors. White people, watch out. This isn’t about forgiveness. And it’s not about reconciliation.”*_

The play blends “high-octane stage action” with “heart-pumping visuals”. Actor Ash Flanders plays “every single white person she needs to kill”. “You’ll be laughing out loud one second, squirming in your seat the next,” it says. “Your white meat is DONE, motherf**ker.”

Ms Wilding last month told _TimeOut_ she “couldn’t have asked for anything better” than to have her debut in this show. “It’s right up my alley and it’s so shocking,” she said.

Ms Lui, who also created the award-winning play _Black is the New White_ and is the co-writer and star of the ABC’s _Black Comedy_, tweeted earlier this month, “#BlackGirlMagic is taking over Australian entertainment and decolonising the f**k outta it!”






Writer and actress Nakkiah Lui.Source:News Corp Australia

In 2014, she told Fairfax the play grew out of a short story, based on her own great-great-grandmother, who was suspected to have been the only survivor of a massacre by English settlers. “We can’t confirm it yet but it’s a story I grew up hearing,” Ms Lui said.

“You have films like _Django Unchained_, which played in every Hoyts. A hugely popular movie about the way African-American people were treated in the USA through slavery. It is fascinating that they could sell their story in that way.”

Ms Lui received a $40,000 Australia Council grant for the show, produced by Redfern-based theatre company Performing Lines — which has received nearly $9 million in Australia Council grants since 2008.

The NSW government’s Create NSW chipped in nearly $27,000 in 2015, while the Victorian government’s Australian Centre for the Moving Image provided in-kind support through access to its green-screen studio.

Communications Minister Mitch Fifield said under its legislation, the Australia Council’s funding decisions were made at “arm’s length” from the government.

“The Australia Council advises the development of the work received some funding in 2014,” he said. “It is for the Australia Council to explain its processes, decisions and judgments. I haven’t seen the work, but the description of it isn’t to my taste.”

A spokesman for Create NSW said applications for annual program funding were assessed by “independent panels of peers who then make recommendations to the minister, however neither the minister [nor] Create NSW are involved in the programming decisions of recipient organisations”.

“_Blackie Blackie Brown_ received funding of $26,509 in 2015 through the then Arts NSW Arts & Cultural Projects fund for a two-week creative development of the project, having also been recommended through an independent assessment panel,” he said.

Ms Lui has been contacted for comment. _Blackie Blackie Brown_ premieres on May 12.


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2018)




----------



## Tisme (15 May 2018)

Full video


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2018)

Tisme said:


>




I couldn't figure out what her point was....  Apart from invoking free speech for herself but making an ipso facto  case for silencing others.


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2018)

wayneL said:


> I couldn't figure out what her point was....  Apart from invoking free speech for herself but making an ipso facto  case for silencing others.





Girls go through that argumentative phase, some earlier, some, later ... it must be a rotten feeling later on in life when it surfaces in the memory banks.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Girls go through that argumentative phase, some earlier, some, later ... it must be a rotten feeling later on in life when it surfaces in the memory banks.



The misandrous are stirring, cashed up and ready for a fight.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Full video




God help America.


----------



## Tisme (8 June 2018)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...neutral-toys-lara-croft-rey-star-wars/9836160



> Amid a downturn in global toy sales, Australia's Toys 'R' Us stores going into voluntary administration and closure of the firm's American and UK arms, a quiet revolution is underway in the toy world.
> 
> The gendered distinctions of the infamous pink and blue toy aisles are starting to break down.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (20 June 2018)

Secrets revealed:


----------



## Tisme (24 June 2018)

The experts can't figure out why residents are fleeing in record numbers. 

Maybe it because of the meddling in personal freedoms, social suffocation and burial of she'll be right.


----------



## basilio (29 June 2018)

The story of _Three Identical Strangers_ is going to be one of the big documentaries on this year. I understand it will have quite compelling observations on the nature vs nurture debate. Well worth a look when it comes out. (See it cold.. don't look for the story before the film..)


----------



## moXJO (29 June 2018)

basilio said:


> The story of _Three Identical Strangers_ is going to be one of the big documentaries on this year. I understand it will have quite compelling observations on the nature vs nurture debate. Well worth a look when it comes out. (See it cold.. don't look for the story before the film..)




Amazing story. I remember hearing it years ago.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

Don't start telling jokes, you'll end up a murderer:


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Don't start telling jokes, you'll end up a murderer:





Some of these social nannies should get a life.


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2018)

These the same people who want to ban Australia Day?

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-mayors-call-for-end-to-african-gangs-talk


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2018)

The left wing push to a more tolerant, less aggressive(well passive aggressive is o.k apparently) future, where out kids can grow up to be respectful and more tolerant seems to be hitting a speed hump ATM.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-p...-assaults-in-the-past-18-months-ng-b88928791z

Yes you just have to give them free reign, turn the other cheek and they will respond, can't wait to see how it all unfolds. 
Now if a child who doesn't like school misbehaves, they get time off, that should work. 
Teachers should just have a group hug, you know circle the wagons, for protection.


----------



## fiftyeight (16 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> These the same people who want to ban Australia Day?
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-mayors-call-for-end-to-african-gangs-talk




Not wanting to start another debate on this one

BUT, haha

Am I a left wing social nannie because I am open to changing the date but have no desire to not ban it?


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The left wing push to a more tolerant, less aggressive(well passive aggressive is o.k apparently) future, where out kids can grow up to be respectful and more tolerant seems to be hitting a speed hump ATM.
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-p...-assaults-in-the-past-18-months-ng-b88928791z
> 
> ...



Quote from the story -
“*Quite often the parent will come into the school and supports the indefensible behaviour of the student.* There is a very, very different attitude from a large number of parents from what there was 15 years ago and certainly from when I was at school.”
End quote.

So the idiots (informal) of yesteryears have gone on to breed.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Quote from the story -
> “*Quite often the parent will come into the school and supports the indefensible behaviour of the student.* There is a very, very different attitude from a large number of parents from what there was 15 years ago and certainly from when I was at school.”
> End quote.
> 
> So the idiots of yesteryears have gone on to breed.




So that is only a recent phenomena?


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> So that is only a recent phenomena?



The quote bolded section?


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> The quote bolded section?




Of course the parent will blame the school, they have been told endlessly, that children should be respected and only misbehave because of poor adult management.
The last thing people do these days is take responsibility, it is always someone else's fault.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Now if a child who doesn't like school misbehaves, they get time off, that should work.
> Teachers should just have a group hug, you know circle the wagons, for protection.



It is happening in our workplace too. I notice attitudes have changed regarding care and respect for other people and other peoples equipment. The phrases "tell someone who gives a %^&#", "who gives a ^&%#", "I don't give a &^%#" have become more common. Equipment abuse and team work is at all time lows. It is a contagion and the supervisors turn a blind eye.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is happening in our workplace too. I notice attitudes have changed regarding care and respect for other people and other peoples equipment. The phrases "tell someone who gives a %^&#", "who gives a ^&%#", "I don't give a &^%#" have become more common. Equipment abuse and team work is at all time lows. It is a contagion and the supervisors turn a blind eye.




Yes unfortunately, the more you allow the boundaries of society to relax, the more society pushes them.
Then you get the ones who like order, feeling their efforts are futile and they rebel in a low level manner as you describe.
IMO the political and media agenda is so dysfunctional in Australia, that there is no obvious line delineating right and wrong in society. 
No matter what one party says is wrong, the other side will explain away the bad behaviour as not the perpetrators fault, it runs through all aspects of life.
I heard a comedian said, it is becoming impossible to have comedy any more, political correctness has gone mental.
It will end up badly IMO.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes unfortunately, the more you allow the boundaries of society to relax, the more society pushes them.



High profile people and the media mass have extended the boundaries of social communications. Trash talk is a communicable dis-ease and worse when it leads to physical expression.


----------



## Tisme (17 August 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Trash talk is a communicable dis-ease and worse when it leads to physical expression.




Reminds me of those "Brawl Hall" forums when the witless tries to get cute with a seasoned professional....it invariably ends up with the former foul mouthed calling out the latter for a face to face and a session of brutality.... strange given they are both avatars.


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2018)

So the latest is the outrageous use of "vagina" to marginalise and discriminate against transgender people. It must now be called the "front hole" ...... true.

And they wonder why I pick on the dingbats here for encouraging this seriously stupifying nonsense upon the mentality deranged in society.....did someone make a bet sometime to prove humans truly are, by and large, rote learned walking and talking imbeciles or is this just a bad dream ?


----------



## moXJO (11 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> So the latest is the outrageous use of "vagina" to marginalise and discriminate against transgender people. It must now be called the "front hole" ...... true.
> 
> And they wonder why I pick on the dingbats here for encouraging this seriously stupifying nonsense upon the mentality deranged in society.....did someone make a bet sometime to prove humans truly are, by and large, rote learned walking and talking imbeciles or is this just a bad dream ?



I did hear about this the other day.
Funniest thing I heard in a while.


----------



## Darc Knight (11 September 2018)

Is this Public Service policy now - front and back hole?


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2018)

To all you haters of Tisme, be on your best behaviour from now on:

https://www.southyorks.police.uk/find-out/crime-prevention-advice/hate-crime/

"
*What is hate crime?*
Hate crime is an incident or crime which is perceived to be motivated by prejudice or hostility (or perceived to be so) against a person’s:


Race – nationality, ethnicity, skin colour and heritage
Faith – religion, belief, non-religious belief
Disability – physical, hearing and visual impairments, mental ill health and learning disabilities
Sexual orientation - people who identify as lesbian, gay, bi-sexual or heterosexual
Gender identity - people who identify as ‘trans’ including transgender or transsexual people
It can include things like:


Physical assault
Damage to property
Offensive graffiti
Arson
*Inciting hatred online*

Just listen to Sarah and her piano and feel the love:
*
*


----------



## Darc Knight (11 September 2018)

We don't hate you Tis, well at least I don't. I actually find "the Tis" quite entertaining, although I doubt poor Bas would feel the same


----------



## fiftyeight (11 September 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> We don't hate you Tis, well at least I don't. I actually find "the Tis" quite entertaining, although I doubt poor Bas would feel the same




I find Tis funny, as long as the topic is not something I care about


----------



## luutzu (11 September 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> We don't hate you Tis, well at least I don't. I actually find "the Tis" quite entertaining, although I doubt poor Bas would feel the same




"The 'tis"... good one. 

I prefer Bas' Tizzy though. McTizzy


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> We don't hate you Tis, well at least I don't. I actually find "the Tis" quite entertaining, although I doubt poor Bas would feel the same




Apart from the abusive vulgar language, the offer to sort me out face to face and complaining to the mods, I'm sure she doesn't hold any malice .... 

I can't think what I might have posted that would have caused any anxiety


----------



## Darc Knight (11 September 2018)

Brb. Finding a Bas post to like


----------



## SirRumpole (11 September 2018)

I HATE HATE.


----------



## wayneL (11 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> Apart from the abusive vulgar language, the offer to sort me out face to face and complaining to the mods, I'm sure she doesn't hold any malice ....
> 
> I can't think what I might have posted that would have caused any anxiety




Face to face?!?! 

Jeez,  I haven't even had the honour of that offer.  Wouldn't miss that for the world


----------



## satanoperca (11 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> Apart from the abusive vulgar language, the offer to sort me out face to face and complaining to the mods, I'm sure she doesn't hold any malice ....
> 
> I can't think what I might have posted that would have caused any anxiety




This is the funniest post I have read in my time on this forum.

Who would have thought Tisme, that you might piss people off, not anxiety, just down right anger.

Not doubt you will have your normal retort, but as I say to my son, some times it is easy to just suck it up.


----------



## satanoperca (11 September 2018)

wayneL said:


> Face to face?!?!
> 
> Jeez,  I haven't even had the honour of that offer.  Wouldn't miss that for the world




Wayne, so you don't feel left out, I have a real problem with people who like horses, so next time I up north or your down south, I think we need to face off, 20 paces and guns drawn


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2018)

satanoperca said:


> This is the funniest post I have read in my time on this forum.
> 
> Who would have thought Tisme, that you might piss people off, not anxiety, just down right anger.
> 
> Not doubt you will have your normal retort, but as I say to my son, some times it is easy to just suck it up.




I'm sure your son hangs off your every word.


----------



## satanoperca (11 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm sure your son hangs off your every word.



You will have to ask him, he is his own person. 
Be interesting to see a debate between the intellectual Tisme and a 12 year old, but then again he does have a good bull**** detector, so it might not be much of a debate.


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2018)

satanoperca said:


> You will have to ask him, he is his own person.
> Be interesting to see a debate between the intellectual Tisme and a 12 year old, but then again he does have a good bull**** detector, so it might not be much of a debate.




I take it you have come for a tanty fix? 

If your son is his own person, why are you boasting about coaching him in the ways to suck up inferiority?


----------



## wayneL (12 September 2018)

satanoperca said:


> Wayne, so you don't feel left out, I have a real problem with people who like horses, so next time I up north or your down south, I think we need to face off, 20 paces and guns drawn



Well, I'm kind of with you there. Most horse owners are freaking Fruit Loops


----------



## satanoperca (12 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> I take it you have come for a tanty fix?
> 
> If your son is his own person, why are you boasting about coaching him in the ways to suck up inferiority?




Nothing to do with inferiority, but twist it how you will, you seem to take delight in that.


----------



## sptrawler (16 September 2018)

So now music festivals are evil and need shutting down, because people are taking drugs? How does that correlate.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...val-overdoses-at-penrith-20180916-p50422.html

So I take it, they must have been shoving the drugs down the concert goers throats, we really have a skewed take on responsibility. IMO
What about the 90% of people that probably enjoyed the concert, and didn't take drugs, they have to be punished?
We really are becoming a weird society.IMO


----------



## Tisme (17 September 2018)




----------



## Tisme (20 September 2018)

Is it lack of parental stoicism?

http://thefederalist.com/2017/02/28/blame-parents-share-sudden-emergence-trans-kids/

_..............
The question answered itself after reading Laurie Frankel’s September essay in the New York Times, “From He to She in First Grade,” followed by her ardent reviews of transgender promotional material in January’s Publisher’s Weekly. Not for nothing did her initial unbosoming appear in the Fashion and Style section of the Times.Transgender is in vogue. It has become the next new thing, an accessory to the prevailing ideology of self-fulfillment.

Transgender is a route to celebrity, a cause for special attention and concern. It carries the privileges due a living symbol of all things beyond the bounds of ordinary life and its drab conventions. It is a mission. In the words of the authors of “The Transgender Child: A Handbook for Families and Professionals”: “It is a very exciting time to be raising gender-variant and transgender children. . . . Congratulations. You are helping to change the world.”........_


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> Is it lack of parental stoicism?
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2017/02/28/blame-parents-share-sudden-emergence-trans-kids/
> 
> ...




I reckon it's the fault of that Roz Ward woman  going around schools teaching kids to be gay.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...g/news-story/fbf7624b707d861b8a1bb3e9b16e903b


----------



## Tisme (21 September 2018)

Research agreeing with Jordan Peterson's observation of Scandinavian countries = gender is innate not learned or chosen:


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2018)

Science is racist and misogynistic Tisyou.  </sarc>


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2018)

In my opinion, this is how screwed up our social systems are getting.
A few years ago they stopped announcing the number of suicides, because they felt it encouraged more suicides, obviously that concept is out the window.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...-year-five-student-attempted-suicide/10299004

I guess it now depends on the message, rather than the outcome. Where is this all leading, FFS
What do they want, no stress forever, well who the fluck is going to fund that?
What outcome do the left wing want, everyone on a meth pipe, just knowing how it should be?
My rant for the day, they are getting shorter, like my patience.


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2018)

Here is another aspect to social engineering, where the result of murder in Australia, is probably better than life in another Country.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...its-australia-day-murder-20180924-p505nd.html
What's the down side?
Just my opinion, but it is a weird scenerio.


----------



## Tisme (30 September 2018)




----------



## sptrawler (1 October 2018)

OMG we really are becoming a "nanny state", now they want to stop people taking selfies in dangerous places. 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/startling-reason-experts-calling-no-selfie-zones-001141936.html

When will go back to an era, where people were expected to take responsibility for their own actions.

What will the sign say? "No taking pictures of yourself falling from a cliff"


----------



## SirRumpole (1 October 2018)

sptrawler said:


> OMG we really are becoming a "nanny state", now they want to stop people taking selfies in dangerous places.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/startling-reason-experts-calling-no-selfie-zones-001141936.html
> 
> ...




Natural selection if you ask me.


----------



## moXJO (6 October 2018)

Mein kampf rewritten as feminist journal and accepted. Feminazi now a legitimate label.


----------



## Tisme (6 October 2018)

moXJO said:


> Mein kampf rewritten as feminist journal and accepted. Feminazi now a legitimate label.






So these three are to blame for the present situation?


----------



## sptrawler (10 October 2018)

More 'Left Wing' bullying, they said all they wanted was to have marriage rights for gay people, the same as hetrosexual couples.
Now the front moves on. 

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...-sex-discrimination-laws-20181010-p508sw.html

What about those in the community, that don't want their children exposed to homosexuality, obviously the left don't want that as an option even if they are prepare to pay for it.

We really do appear to be losing the plot. IMO

From a personal perspective, I just wish silly Billy cared as much about blue collar workers who have become self funded retirees, as he doe's  about gay's and lesbians.
Obviously they are more important, and I'm past my use by date, so I'm not a vote catcher unless I'm being demonised.
This has to end badly IMO.
But I guess the SMH, has to find something for silly Billy to hang his hat on, jeez lowering the debate down to this, really takes the piss. IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (10 October 2018)

sptrawler said:


> More 'Left Wing' bullying, they said all they wanted was to have marriage rights for gay people, the same as hetrosexual couples.
> Now the front moves on.




Won't comment on this.

Too contraversial for such an august forum as this.


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2018)

I see silly Billy is taking it on board, more votes, from the loony left. Let's get it happening.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...religious-discrimination-20181010-p508su.html

From the article:
_Opposition Leader Bill Shorten called on Mr Morrison to make the report public before the Wentworth byelection on October 20 so voters could consider the findings, while he also added that he would not support any new laws to discriminate against children in education_.

IMO Silly Billy would say anything, as long as he gets the big chair, and the trappings, it is just so ffing sad.
I'm just pleased I'm not 20 year old voter, it isn't about who will do the best for Australia, it is about who hasn't got their nose in the trough IMO.
Australia, has become a side show, for Canberra.


----------



## PZ99 (11 October 2018)

Why does a school need to know if a child is gay in the first place?


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Why does a school need to know if a child is gay in the first place?



Because sexuallity awareness is an issue, too many children aren't aware which sex they are. Just google when should children be aware of their sexuality, or when should children be aware of their gender. 
It has become a whole new field and they are just scratching the surface, in a few years kids will have gender and bias name tags, they will have to wear them going to pre primary. IMO
The World has gone mad.
Just find another cause or idea, that can generate an income, then get those who work to pay for it. Then they pay taxes and the money keeps going in a circle, what a ffking mess.


----------



## PZ99 (11 October 2018)

It sounds like a conflicting narrative to me. For decades it's been illegal to discriminate against an employee for being gay but it's OK for religious schools to do it to students... social engineering at its very best IMO. Can't see how that's going to work.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2018)

If some schools want a private club they should finance it from their own membership not put their hands out for public funds.

On the other hand if some staff are gay they shouldn't be flaunting or preaching that either in public or private schools, sexuality should not come into their job.

If some kids are gay, well that's just the way it is, they need an education too.


----------



## Tisme (11 October 2018)

sptrawler said:


> More 'Left Wing' bullying, they said all they wanted was to have marriage rights for gay people, the same as hetrosexual couples.
> Now the front moves on.
> 
> https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...-sex-discrimination-laws-20181010-p508sw.html
> ...




Pre election stunts are starting up with this kind of nonsense, tax cuts for small business, etc.

It would be worthwhile these proponents for non discrimination of gays in schools to actually talk to their school children and realise that there is next to none. The generation of teachers, Principals and the children now attending generally DGAF if you are the dog with two heads, they are generally numb to any kind of surprises = early Ipad games and social media groomed already.


----------



## Junior (11 October 2018)

So how does this work?  Are the kids vetted when they enter a school at 5 years old to determine the likelihood of them being homosexual?  Or do you wait for evidence when they hit puberty and then expel them?


----------



## Tisme (11 October 2018)

Junior said:


> So how does this work?  Are the kids vetted when they enter a school at 5 years old to determine the likelihood of them being homosexual?  Or do you wait for evidence when they hit puberty and then expel them?





My guess it would be weeding out the ones who parade their homosexual badges as protest which would cause distraction to the purpose of schooling; similar to weeding out the phobes who cause chaos.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2018)

https://www.jccf.ca/essaycontest/

*2018 Essay Contest – Compelled Speech and Gender-Neutral Pronouns*






Bill C-16, _An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code, _was passed into law by the Parliament of Canada in June 2017. This law amends the Criminal Code and the Canadian Human Rights Act to add gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination. The Ontario Human Rights Commission has stated that _“_refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the _Code_, including employment, housing and services like education._“_ As gender identity legislation and policies are being instituted across Canada, there are concerns that freedom of expression rights could be impeded by Bill C-16 and similar provincial statutes across Canada.

The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms asks students at Canadian colleges universities to answer (in 2500 words or less) the following question:

*Should Canadians be required by law to use gender-neutral pronouns? Why or why not?*
*Prize*
1st – $1,500           2nd – $1,000           3rd – $500



*Eligibility*
This contest is open to students currently enrolled at Canadian colleges and universities, and to those who will be entering post-secondary studies in September 2018.



*Deadline*
The deadline to submit essays is October 31, 2018. Submit your essay using the form below, or email it to *mkennedy@jccf.ca*.



*Judging Panel*
Essays will be reviewed and marked by an esteemed panel of judges, including Andrew Lawton (Waterloo), Danny Hozack (Calgary), Barbara Kay (Montreal), Nigel Hannaford (Calgary), John Robson (Toronto), Norm Machida (Calgary), Sam Goldstein (Toronto), Robert Donick (Kelowna) and Jared Brown (Toronto).


----------



## Tink (19 October 2018)




----------



## Tink (6 March 2019)




----------



## Logique (6 March 2019)

Nanna's pilfered tax refund and strip mined retirement assets are going to have to stretch a long way in Chairman Shorten's Australia


----------



## basilio (6 March 2019)

All  you need to know about MAFS.  (Married at.............)

_"At least half the ‘contestants’ appear to be already deranged when they start the process and by the end of it are completely bonkers and everyone gets on Twitter to kick them on their way to the psych ward. The experts who match them should be charged with endangering life.”  David Hughes Twitter

https://twitter.com/DHughesy_


----------



## wayneL (6 March 2019)

basilio said:


> All  you need to know about MAFS.  (Married at.............)
> 
> _"At least half the ‘contestants’ appear to be already deranged when they start the process and by the end of it are completely bonkers and everyone gets on Twitter to kick them on their way to the psych ward. The experts who match them should be charged with endeangering life.”  David Hughes Twitter
> 
> https://twitter.com/DHughesy_



Life in the postmodern world you helped create bas


----------



## basilio (6 March 2019)

wayneL said:


> Life in the postmodern world you helped create bas




Really Wayne ?  You don't mind what baseball bat you use in your culture war do you ?  I assume we are also to blame for Donald Trump, CC , the death of Bambi and the universal spread of child sex abuse via the Church's. 
Yeah


----------



## moXJO (6 March 2019)

basilio said:


> All  you need to know about MAFS.  (Married at.............)
> 
> _"At least half the ‘contestants’ appear to be already deranged when they start the process and by the end of it are completely bonkers and everyone gets on Twitter to kick them on their way to the psych ward. The experts who match them should be charged with endangering life.”  David Hughes Twitter
> 
> https://twitter.com/DHughesy_



It says more about us as a society that this is what tv producers have to come up with to rate well.
Apparently the rumor is they are mostly paid actor's.


----------



## wayneL (6 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Really Wayne ?  You don't mind what baseball bat you use in your culture war do you ?  I assume we are also to blame for Donald Trump, CC , the death of Bambi and the universal spread of child sex abuse via the Church's.
> Yeah



Well, Trump,  yes,  indirectly... and lots of other stuff which would make a very long list. But that's just lump it under the Great Moral, intellectual, and logical schism as it exists today.


----------



## dutchie (7 March 2019)

Tink said:


>




I think there should be more men in woman's sport.


----------



## Tink (7 March 2019)

Why would you call it a woman sport/competition, if there are no women?


----------



## dutchie (7 March 2019)

Tink said:


> Why would you call it a woman sport/competition, if there are no women?



Oh, we would still let women compete.


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2019)

Perhaps, considering the intersectional postmodern cultural Marxists believe gender is a social construct,  we should abolish gendered events altogether. 

<sarc>


----------



## Tink (7 March 2019)

They should have men, women and mixed teams, imv


----------



## Darc Knight (7 March 2019)

Tink said:


> They should have men, women and mixed teams, imv




"Mixed"? Or mixed up?

Depends on the Sport.

"Nature rules Daniel son!"


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

The media really need a reality check IMO, dangerous drinking and letting off steam, when on active service OMG. 
Maybe the SAS should be given free iPads and lifetime subscriptions to netflicks with backpack satellite dish , that could keep them grounded and entertained while they are behind enemy lines. 😜
All great reading.  








						Defence chief informed of infamous bar 'The Fat Ladies Arms' in 2015
					

A publicly available document reveals the Chief of the Australian Defence Force was told years ago about an unauthorised bar and dangerous drinking at the special forces base in Afghanistan, despite telling Senate Estimates he did not know if it was a "physical location".




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The Chief of the Australian Defence Force was told almost six years ago about SAS soldiers drinking alcohol, often to excess, in an unauthorised bar known as "The Fat Ladies Arms" on their Afghanistan base.
In March, Lieutenant General Angus Campbell was asked in Senate Estimates if he had ever visited the unauthorised bar.

"I was unaware of it. I never visited it and have not sighted it. I don't even know if it was a physical location or if it was a concept around which drinking occurred," he said.
ABC Investigations has been told some SAS soldiers drank home-brew spirits at The Fat Ladies Arms, and that in one incident a pistol was discharged into the ceiling by a drunken SAS soldier.
In another incident, a female Special Operations Task Group soldier has told ABC Investigations she woke up semi-naked in an SAS operator's bed at Tarin Kowt after being plied with home-brew spirits at the Fat Ladies Arms in 2012


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The media really need a reality check IMO, dangerous drinking and letting off steam, when on active service OMG.
> Maybe the SAS should be given free iPads and lifetime subscriptions to netflicks with backpack satellite dish , that could keep them grounded and entertained while they are behind enemy lines. 😜
> All great reading.
> 
> ...




What sort of people is the ADF training I wonder.

Pretty unprofessional at the least.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> What sort of people is the ADF training I wonder.
> 
> Pretty unprofessional at the least.



I guess they are training the types that you drop in behind enemy lines, the ones who usually have to fight hard, also play hard unfortunately.








						SAS troops in Afghan chopper rescue drama
					






					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
In the biggest battle involving Australian soldiers since the Vietnam War, Special Air Service troops helped rescue 36 American survivors of a downed Chinook helicopter under attack in Afghanistan.
The Defence Department revealed yesterday that 100 SAS soldiers are playing a key role in what has been described as the bloodiest battle of the Afghan conflict.

One patrol in Afghanistan's Shahi Valley prevented the American troops who survived the helicopter crash on Tuesday from being overrun by al Qaeda and Taliban forces, then directed a rescue.
The Commander of Special Operations, Brigadier Duncan Lewis, told a news conference in Canberra yesterday that the SAS was providing half of the special forces contingent to Operation Anaconda, aimed at "squeezing" 1000 alQaeda fighters out of their mountain stronghold.








						The SAS man who wouldn't stay quiet
					

Britain's government has spent five years trying to gag Mike Coburn




					www.irishtimes.com
				



From the article:
Bravo Two Zero. For many people those three words conjure up the image of the soldier hero: the special-forces trooper - the kind of cool-minded killer who could go anywhere and seemingly do just about anything. It was the call sign for a British Special Air Service (SAS) patrol during a mission in the 1991 Gulf War that was "compromised" behind enemy lines. Three of the eight-man team were killed, and four captured and tortured, while trying to destroy Scud missile launchers in north-west Iraq. One managed to escape by foot across the desert into Syria.








						How a daring daylight raid broadcast on live TV made the elite British SAS back into a household name
					

Operation Nimrod was a success, and because much of it was caught on live television, it propelled the SAS into the public spotlight.




					www.businessinsider.com.au
				



The hostage-takers were members of an obscure Arab terrorist organization who opposed Ayatollah Khomeini and wanted Iran to give autonomy to Arabistan, or Khuzestan Province, a small but oil-rich province in southwest Iran.

Their intrusion began an ordeal that would end with a spectacular raid by the UK’s top special-operations unit, the Special Air Service (SAS), on May 5.





__





						List of SAS operations - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I guess they are training the types that you drop in behind enemy lines, the ones who usually have to fight hard, also play hard unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Letting off steam is fine.

It doesn't excuse everything though.

But I agree the media is oversensitive to certain things.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Letting off steam is fine.
> 
> It doesn't excuse everything though.
> 
> But I agree the media is oversensitive to certain things.



I grew up in mining Towns where worse happened in the front bar, than being reported happening in a front line wet canteen.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

Interesting comments by the usually left leaning Gratton Institute, I wonder how the media will take it? It does smack of discrimination and will anger some.
I bet a few politicians choked on their weeties, when they read it and probably thought "I'm glad it wasn't me, that said the comment". 😂 








						'Stop taking migrants who are old and speak bad English': Call to rethink Australia's immigration policy
					

Australia's immigration policy is not attracting migrants who pay economic dividends, according to a Grattan Institute report that calls for a complete revamp of the visa system.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
When Australia's borders reopen to migrants there is an opportunity to change the makeup of people accepted to work and live in our nation permanently.

Key points:​
Think tank the Grattan Institute and others are calling for a revamp of Australia's skilled migration program
The report suggests that post-COVID, Australia should shift from taking older workers with less proficient English to younger and more highly skilled workers
The federal government has launched a parliamentary inquiry into Australia's skilled migration program, which is due to report back by July
Australia is simply not attracting the right migrants — the ones who pay economic dividends — according to a Grattan Institute report that calls for a complete rethink of immigration policy.
Grattan's report argues that if we want to innovate our businesses, grow the economy and slow the rate of our ageing population, we need to stop taking older migrants with poor English language skills.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting comments by the usually left leaning Gratton Institute, I wonder how the media will take it? It does smack of discrimination and will anger some.
> I bet a few politicians choked on their weeties, when they read it and probably thought "I'm glad it wasn't me, that said the comment". 😂
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe we should stop letting them bring in their old parents under family reunion too.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I climbed the rock and it was an amazing sight. I would not bother going there if not for climbing; the Olgas are better and when I was there Mt Connor was an unexpected great amazing sight indeed
> I was young and foolish.I will push my son to go ASAP and climb Ayers Rock while he can



As you said frog, it is a long way to go to look at a rock, climbing it the view was amazing. Well it looks as though we were right, not many going there, even with everyone holidaying at home.








						Outback tourism body calls for JobKeeper to be reinstated
					

Tourism Central Australia is calling for JobKeeper to be reinstated so the region's struggling tourism and hospitality industries are kept alive.




					www.abc.net.au


----------

