# IFL - Insignia Financial



## oldblue (14 January 2010)

It's quite a while since the merger with AUW - about time this stock had its own thread. Besides, the SP has increased from about $2.50 in March to around $6.00!

Anybody else holding/interested?


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## skc (14 January 2010)

oldblue said:


> It's quite a while since the merger with AUW - about time this stock had its own thread. Besides, the SP has increased from about $2.50 in March to around $6.00!
> 
> Anybody else holding/interested?




May be a takeover premium built but I don't think that's happening soon, given that the banks have bigger eggs to fry and integration challenges on all the other recent acquisitions.


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## oldblue (5 February 2010)

Is it just takeover speculation that has IOF up 11c today in an otherwise very wobbly market, or is there some other news that we should know about?


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## oldblue (24 January 2011)

Almost a year since the last post on IFL.

SP in that period has gone from around $6 to $8.

No recent news so I assume it's just general interest in the sector. Anyone else holding - or with a view?


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## sptrawler (24 January 2011)

There is still a lot of consolidation to happen  in the super sector. As the baby boomers come through it is going to take economy of scale to fill the shortfall between increasing  withdrawls and deminishing contributions. If the smaller companies don't merge I would assume they may suffer cash flow problems. The bigger companies will also suffer but to a lesser degree. My feeling is that IOOF is a big enough market name to either make it a possible take over or an attractive merger partner for the smaller players. So it is a bit of a win win situation, it either gets bigger through friendly merger or gets bought out by one of the big players.
My thoughts only and I do hold through the AUW merger.


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## Julia (24 January 2011)

sptrawler said:


> There is still a lot of consolidation to happen  in the super sector. As the baby boomers come through it is going to take economy of scale to fill the shortfall between increasing  withdrawls and deminishing contributions. If the smaller companies don't merge I would assume they may suffer cash flow problems.



This very point was made in an article in the "Weekend Australian", including even the suggestion that some funds might need to be frozen.  Thin end of the wedge?


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## sptrawler (24 January 2011)

The thin edge of the wedge indeed, these funds have been able to do just about anything with our money with minimal accountability. The test will come when the short fall between withdrawls and contributions has to be made up by investment based performance. Then we will really see who the best fund managers really are.

My gut feeling is that there will be such a shortfall the government will have to step in and take over a lot if not all the superfunds before they loose it all.
From memory I am sure I read somewhere that back in the 1950's we had a similar pension scheme to the U.K( where everyone payed in and and everyone got a pension). The government of the day said all too difficult we will put it in consolidated revenue and just pay the pensions. We all know what happens from there means, test then spend it all, then say hang on we need a superannuation gaurantee system so you can fund your own pension. Hang on haven't we all ready been here, boy I am sure getting more cynical as I get older, I am starting to get more like my dad every day.


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## oldblue (24 January 2011)

Thanks, folks. Good to have sparked some discussion here!

Any other views on IFL's position/strength in the coming new scenario?

I hold, but I'm a bit ambivalent as to whether they have sufficient clout to hold their own when things hot up.


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## sptrawler (24 January 2011)

They are not carrying a lot of baggage like some of the bigger funds and do a lot of business selling administration services to smaller boutique funds. This should enable them to absorb these smaller providers at minimal cost as things get tougher for them. Also when IOOF becomes big enough one of the larger players should mop them up. At the moment with a P/E of 17.3 it looks as though a lot of this is factored into the price


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## Julia (24 January 2011)

sptrawler said:


> From memory I am sure I read somewhere that back in the 1950's we had a similar pension scheme to the U.K( where everyone payed in and and everyone got a pension). The government of the day said all too difficult we will put it in consolidated revenue and just pay the pensions.



This is exactly what happened in NZ at that time.  People trustingly paid into a National Superannuation Fund and then, whacko, off it all went into consolidated revenue.  In New Zealand's case, however, to their credit super is still not means tested and available to everyone when they retire, unlike here.

It does, however, there form part of one's total taxable income so probably limits how much can be paid to some individuals.



> We all know what happens from there means, test then spend it all, then say hang on we need a superannuation gaurantee system so you can fund your own pension. Hang on haven't we all ready been here, boy I am sure getting more cynical as I get older, I am starting to get more like my dad every day.



If you're getting more cynical, it's with very good reason.


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## notting (2 September 2011)

I don't normally like to buy stocks when they are trading ex.
However I think this mornings reaction is a little over the top.
Have been grazing on this.


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## piggybank (25 February 2015)

I'm surprised to see that this stock has failed to have anyone contribute to the thread in 4.5 years especially given its recent run up. In that the last 21 trading days only 2 of them have been down days, maybe I shouldn't have said that given that they deal with the dead

Some insight into the company's business - InvoCare Limited (IVC) owns and operates funeral homes, cemeteries and crematoria around Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. Key funeral brands are White Lady Funerals, Simplicity Funerals and Singapore Casket. IVC also operates two Chinese memorial gardens, Lung Po Shan Chinese Memorial Gardens and Po Fook Shan Asian Memorial Gardens.


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## Julia (25 February 2015)

piggybank said:


> I'm surprised to see that this stock has failed to have anyone contribute to the thread in 4.5 years especially given its recent run up. In that the last 21 trading days only 2 of them have been down days, maybe I shouldn't have said that given that they deal with the dead
> 
> Some insight into the company's business - InvoCare Limited (IVC) owns and operates funeral homes, cemeteries and crematoria around Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. Key funeral brands are White Lady Funerals, Simplicity Funerals and Singapore Casket. IVC also operates two Chinese memorial gardens, Lung Po Shan Chinese Memorial Gardens and Po Fook Shan Asian Memorial Gardens.



PB, I'm a bit confused.  You comment on IOOF on the IOOF thread but then go on to describe the activities of Invocare.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 June 2015)

Another Financial Planner obscenity is unfolding at IOOF.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/ioof-shares-tumble-15pc-on-news-of-scandal-20150622-ghu32g.html

The leaders of this fund seem to have abandoned all good governance principles, if this article from the SMH is to be believed. 



> "It is the case that from time to time, IOOF identifies unit pricing errors sourced from externally managed or its own funds on each occasion, the error is carefully reviewed and if material, reported to ASIC."
> 
> Last week Fairfax Media put over 50 questions to IOOF including several questions relating to unit pricing errors. IOOF did not respond to those questions.
> 
> ...




As Malcolm Fraser famously advised, keep your money close, preferably under the bed. 

Financial Planners are wont to salivate over lazy money, and if the SMH is to be believed manipulate unit prices. 

IOOF is now at 9.23 , a drop of over 13% in one day.

gg


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## notting (22 June 2015)

Gotta look at the source.
There are few better buying opportunities than when a disgruntled employee mouths off.
I went long at 8.94. which was about a 17% discount to the previous days close on the back of that desperate for attention SMH report.
If there is follow through to the downside tomorrow I'll be out quick, but I doubt that.
A disgruntled employee is a great 'face saver' as well as a good reason to think it's a load of crap and that they are no worse than any other fundy doing just fine as muppets make the slow and enduring return to the markets after the GFC.  
There's still infinite cash floating around and IFL, MFG, MQG and the like are all set to bolt higher if this Greece thing blows over.  Even it doesn't it'll just be blip.  
They seem to want to keep them in the Euro even if they default.  That should stem contagion. If they go broke, print money and bail em out.


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## Garpal Gumnut (7 July 2015)

notting said:


> Gotta look at the source.
> There are few better buying opportunities than when a disgruntled employee mouths off.
> I went long at 8.94. which was about a 17% discount to the previous days close on the back of that desperate for attention SMH report.
> If there is follow through to the downside tomorrow I'll be out quick, but I doubt that.
> ...




Just wondering what your thoughts are?

8.86 on decreasing vol yesterday.

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/company.do#!/IFL

gg


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## notting (7 July 2015)

MD Christopher Kelaher appearing voluntarily to the senate inquiry regarding barking dog ex employee.
All the other guys are overseas!
"How much has the share price dropped since the allegations Mr Kelaher?"
"Is this a crises Mr Kelaher?"
"Do your share holders think this is a crises?"
"We're concerned about victimisation of the whistle blower, Mr Kelaher."
Their now debating the meaning of a 'first and final warning.'

Conclusion of the hearings -
Senators are morons and not qualified to make meaningful inquiries.


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## Garpal Gumnut (7 July 2015)

notting said:


> MD Christopher Kelaher appearing voluntarily to the senate inquiry regarding barking dog ex employee.
> All the other guys are overseas!
> "How much has the share price dropped since the allegations Mr Kelaher?"
> "Is this a crises Mr Kelaher?"
> ...




While I have never been a fan of Sen.Dastyari, I must admit he performed well today in asking the MD of IFL, a Mr. Kelahar, some pointed questions about the practices in the HR, Research, Investment and Advisory departments of this beleagured Financial Planning operation, IOOF.

We must have been watching different Senate hearings, Notting, as he appeared to ask some very pointed questions which still have not been adequately answered. 

Financial Advisors are even more dangerous to investors, the bigger they get. Good governance seems to be without of IOOF.

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 July 2015)

notting said:


> MD Christopher Kelaher appearing voluntarily to the senate inquiry regarding barking dog ex employee.
> All the other guys are overseas!
> "How much has the share price dropped since the allegations Mr Kelaher?"
> "Is this a crises Mr Kelaher?"
> ...




I thought it was just me, notting, but the SMH Business Day reporter also picked up on my feeling, that the Senators had Mr. Kelahar in a "gotcha" moment at the Senate Inquiry yesterday. 

This does not bode well for the IFL price. 



> IOOF chief executive Chris Kelaher says the company did not report serious allegations of misconduct by senior staff to the corporate regulator despite the company investigating insider trading and front running six years ago.
> 
> Mr Kelaher made the explosive admission at a Senate hearing on Tuesday when he was grilled over allegations the financial services company covered up poor behaviour by staff. IOOF, which has a market value of $2.6 billion, sells financial advice, superannuation, investment management and trustee services.




http://www.smh.com.au/business/ioof-boss-admits-company-never-reported-suspected-insider-trading-to-asic-20150707-gi6nmg.html

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 July 2015)

notting said:


> Gotta look at the source.
> There are few better buying opportunities than when a disgruntled employee mouths off.
> I went long at 8.94. which was about a 17% discount to the previous days close on the back of that desperate for attention SMH report.
> If there is follow through to the downside tomorrow I'll be out quick, but I doubt that.
> ...




Did you decide to jump today, notting, or are you hanging in there.

A chart does not bode well for the gents and ladies at IFL, all good Friends. 







It looks as if a recent triangle is trending down with a pick up in volume. 

Time to put a helmet on. 

A loss of 24% in half as many days is bad.

gg


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## notting (8 July 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Did you decide to jump today, notting, or are you hanging in there.
> 
> A loss of 24% in half as many days is bad.
> 
> gg




Nope, I'm only down 5% and I it's entering a support zone.
Watch what it does there.


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 July 2015)

notting said:


> Nope, I'm only down 5% and I it's entering a support zone.
> Watch what it does there.




My best wishes for you.

Google "confirmation bias." 

You originally went long at $8.94 and  said you would get out if it went south. It is now at $8.38.

gg


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## sptrawler (8 July 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Did you decide to jump today, notting, or are you hanging in there.
> 
> A chart does not bode well for the gents and ladies at IFL, all good Friends.
> 
> ...




I became involved when they bought out Aust wealth management, sold them a couple of years ago, and kicked myself ever since.

The bruises are healing well at the moment, just shows, you never know what is around the corner.


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I became involved when they bought out Aust wealth management, sold them a couple of years ago, and kicked myself ever since.
> 
> The bruises are healing well at the moment, just shows, you never know what is around the corner.




So true spt

So true. 

I have been out of gambling stocks to my detriment over the last 9 months. 

And they are retreating as will the Chinese gamblers.

And IFL is a huge gamble atm. When the constipated get relief as an old company like this does, watch out.

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 July 2015)

It is interesting that there seems to be a pattern to the delinquency of IOOF ( IFL ).

Firstly they have poor internal governance, going back many years. 

When IOOF have uncovered insider trading and front running they have elected to deal with it in-house rather than referring it to regulators.

From the SMH.



> The investigation by Fairfax Media has uncovered a trove of internal documents and whistleblower testimony that show IOOF has investigated  misconduct by its staff on several occasions and in nearly every instance, including incidents of insider trading and suspected front running, dealt with the matter in-house rather than notifying the Australian Securities and Investments Commission.




And then they compound this by electing to price units differently for investors. 

From the Financial Review



> The Australian Financial Review can also reveal IOOF's cash management trust division is plagued by regulatory breaches and unit pricing errors that have led to some clients receiving distributions that are too high, diluting the distributions to other customers in the division.




A Royal Commission is warranted. 

What are CBA, Macquarie and other instos up to?

gg


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## notting (8 July 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My best wishes for you.
> 
> Google "confirmation bias."
> 
> ...




I'll get out but only when it falls through significant support and I didn't buy this one in one chunk hence the 5%, which will not get bigger than 10% if it breaks support and I have to run. Given it cracked the low after the plunge set on the 25th, that would have been a good time to sell.  But  given the market was so negative today, I thought I'd give it a little more squeezy space.


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## sptrawler (9 July 2015)

The problem I had with IFL, was like most other superannuation styled companies, they seem very opaque.

The only one I'm still exposed to is AMP, mainly because they had their ar$es smacked, when they had to divest the U.K division.


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## notting (21 July 2015)

Now that trade is in the green with it's head above first resistance point. 
Take some off, watch to see if it wants to go any higher volumes not that encouraging on it's way up.
Needs to get through 9.20 with attitude to be heading back to where it came down from.


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## notting (30 July 2015)

Got rid of the rest at 9.25 because it ran up on the back of it's results which were largely achieved prior to the scandal.  It didn't respond well to the senate hearing in the end and so this quarter will be the one that shows reputation damage in the form of customers putting their money elsewhere. 
It is hitting it's head on resistance and needs to get through with volume.  
I'm really just taking a belated stop loss which has been profitable.


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## sptrawler (20 October 2016)

Well I've dipped my toe back in at $8.50, the changes to the super rules, will result in a return to mainstream.IMO


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## So_Cynical (21 October 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well I've dipped my toe back in at $8.50, the changes to the super rules, will result in a return to mainstream.IMO




The fund managers are getting hit, there is a big switch on to ultra low cost index ETF's etc, a lot of money moving out of high cost poorly performing managed funds into low cost index ETF's.


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## sptrawler (21 October 2016)

So_Cynical said:


> The fund managers are getting hit, there is a big switch on to ultra low cost index ETF's etc, a lot of money moving out of high cost poorly performing managed funds into low cost index ETF's.



That's a good point, but won't it also lead to a consolidation of smaller funds?
Trying to get a decent dividend these days, is getting harder and harder.


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## Ves (21 October 2016)

sptrawler said:


> That's a good point, but won't it also lead to a consolidation of smaller funds?



Industry consolidation to this point has certainly driven IFL's earnings growth.  They've done a good job in integrating their previous acquisitions into their structure so far.

One investment thesis behind a holding in IFL is that they can continue acquiring some of the smaller funds, financial planning businesses etc. and integrating them into their vertically integrated platforms and increasing their scale.  The main thing to watch out for is the bigger players stepping over themselves to pay exorbitant prices on the smaller players  (ie. bidding wars).

It's an interesting business model I think.  I follow IFL a bit,  but don't hold at this point.  The best time to buy Fund managers (and other market linked businesses) seems to be during periods of big market declines because some investors invariably have a habit of extrapolating poor market returns too far into the future.


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## Klogg (21 October 2016)

Ves said:


> It's an interesting business model I think.  I follow IFL a bit,  but don't hold at this point.  The best time to buy Fund managers (and other market linked businesses) *seems to be during periods of big market declines because some investors invariably have a habit of extrapolating poor market returns too far into the future.*




On this point - have you by any chance taken a look at PTM recently? Given they have a larger focus in Asian markets (where markets have not performed too well), it sort of correlates with what you said (bolded)

It's got my interest so far (enough to keep a watch on it at least).


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## Ves (21 October 2016)

Klogg said:


> On this point - have you by any chance taken a look at PTM recently? Given they have a larger focus in Asian markets (where markets have not performed too well), it sort of correlates with what you said (bolded)
> 
> It's got my interest so far (enough to keep a watch on it at least).



I haven't looked at PTM closely for a while,  I actually meant to but inadvertently forgot. 

I did see that they announced a buy-back,  which to me looks like Kerr Neilson is sending a message to the shorters.  He's obviously got a pretty good record,  which makes me think it deserves some attention in itself.


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## McLovin (21 October 2016)

Ves said:


> I haven't looked at PTM closely for a while,  I actually meant to but inadvertently forgot.
> 
> I did see that they announced a buy-back,  which to me looks like Kerr Neilson is sending a message to the shorters.  He's obviously got a pretty good record,  which makes me think it deserves some attention in itself.




There's two parts to a FM business. Performance and distribution. PTM has the performance (although they've had a bit of flat spot lately) but they've never really invested in the distribution. They never paid advisor commissions, back when that was a thing and they've tended to go easy on the ad spend and their sales team is tiny (think of how many fund managers underperform consistently but manage to grow FUM...they're really marketing businesses). When they're posting industry leading returns cash will flow just because its chasing the highest returns. But in a period of sub-par returns the lack of a properly developed distribution/marketing arm can really exacerbate outflows.


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## Ves (21 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> There's two parts to a FM business. Performance and distribution. PTM has the performance (although they've had a bit of flat spot lately) but they've never really invested in the distribution. They never paid advisor commissions, back when that was a thing and they've tended to go easy on the ad spend and their sales team is tiny (think of how many fund managers underperform consistently but manage to grow FUM...they're really marketing businesses). When they're posting industry leading returns cash will flow just because its chasing the highest returns. But in a period of sub-par returns the lack of a properly developed distribution/marketing arm can really exacerbate outflows.



Thanks.  Really good points.  

The key person risk re Kerr Neilson is also interesting. I see him as the heart and soul of the company,  and they're also inseparable.   In effect,  they probably haven't needed to do much advertising because his reputation in the investment community precedes itself.  It's hard to know how big his influence still is and what happens when he's no longer there.

As a really crude value determinant a P/E of 15 and dividend somewhere above 6% (currently) probably isn't going to blow the lights out going forward IMO.  Might still beat the market. But I'd still like heaps more blood on the streets  (aka GFC or 2010/2011 kind of thing).


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## Klogg (21 October 2016)

> There's two parts to a FM business. Performance and distribution. PTM has the performance (although they've had a bit of flat spot lately) but they've never really invested in the distribution. They never paid advisor commissions, back when that was a thing and they've tended to go easy on the ad spend and their sales team is tiny (think of how many fund managers underperform consistently but manage to grow FUM...they're really marketing businesses). When they're posting industry leading returns cash will flow just because its chasing the highest returns. *But in a period of sub-par returns the lack of a properly developed distribution/marketing arm can really exacerbate outflows*.




This is exactly why I am looking at it. Without the distribution component, they're really dependent on returning more than the relevant indices. 
The reversal of the current FUM flow is likely once out-performance occurs.

(I'm failing to figure out when this may occur... I'd have to understand their holdings in the relevant funds to do so I guess.)



Ves said:


> As a really crude value determinant a P/E of 15 and dividend somewhere above 6% (currently) probably isn't going to blow the lights out going forward IMO.  Might still beat the market. But I'd still like heaps more blood on the streets  (aka GFC or 2010/2011 kind of thing).




FWIW - there's almost $300m of cash and term deposits there with no significant debt, so might be worth adjusting accordingly.


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## Ves (21 October 2016)

Klogg said:


> FWIW - there's almost $300m of cash and term deposits there with no significant debt, so might be worth adjusting accordingly.



Agree.


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## kermit345 (21 October 2016)

I'm employed within one of IFL's subsidiaries and I have to say their product offering is pretty good in terms of being easy to administer, cost-effective and good investment choice. A lot of the portfolios we put together for clients are index based these days simply because out of the 500+ active funds available there are a very small handful that actually outperform the index after fees - particularly on australian shares as our market is just so small that anyone who outperforms for a year or two eventually has too much FUM inflow that they just become market centric anyway.

Put it this way, IFL's fees are very well positioned and even compete with the industry funds in terms of super administration. That alone plus their investment funds and the natural progression of super (being required to contribute 9.5% per annum) should see a natural increase in their share price over time. That combined with the healthy dividend makes me think their a pretty good long-term proposition.


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## skc (21 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Thanks.  Really good points.
> 
> The key person risk re Kerr Neilson is also interesting. I see him as the heart and soul of the company,  and they're also inseparable.   In effect,  they probably haven't needed to do much advertising because his reputation in the investment community precedes itself.  It's hard to know how big his influence still is and what happens when he's no longer there.
> 
> As a really crude value determinant a P/E of 15 and dividend somewhere above 6% (currently) probably isn't going to blow the lights out going forward IMO.  Might still beat the market. But I'd still like heaps more blood on the streets  (aka GFC or 2010/2011 kind of thing).




Re: PTM

Quite a few articles of late by this mob regarding their prospects. Of particular note is what McLovin said about performance vs flow. Apparently the Morningstar "star" rating for funds is very important for inflows... and PTM funds are about to lose their high start rating as the rating is based on weighted 5yr return against benchmark. So recent under performance by PTM funds will really start to bite even more.

Sorry can't find the article which talked about this... hopefully you can find it with a quick google. 

http://www.morphicasset.com/exclusive-content/platinum-asset-management-the-end


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## Ves (21 October 2016)

skc said:


> Re: PTM
> 
> Quite a few articles of late by this mob regarding their prospects. Of particular note is what McLovin said about performance vs flow. Apparently the Morningstar "star" rating for funds is very important for inflows... and PTM funds are about to lose their high start rating as the rating is based on weighted 5yr return against benchmark. So recent under performance by PTM funds will really start to bite even more.
> 
> ...



Thanks mate,  that's an interesting blog post.   It's good for our benefit that they've publically discussed the reasoning for their short  (well,  there's probably more to it than that).

All said,  I really admire how Kerr Neilson has run the ship over there.  Lets his investing do the talking and leaves the sales bull**** to everyone else.  Unfortunately some of the Funds have hit a bit of a rough patch by the looks of it.


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## McLovin (21 October 2016)

skc said:


> Re: PTM
> 
> Quite a few articles of late by this mob regarding their prospects. Of particular note is what McLovin said about performance vs flow. Apparently the Morningstar "star" rating for funds is very important for inflows... and PTM funds are about to lose their high start rating as the rating is based on weighted 5yr return against benchmark. So recent under performance by PTM funds will really start to bite even more.
> 
> ...




Far be it for me to second guess Kerr Nielsen, but the buyback sort of leaves me scratching my head. Aside from playing a game of chicken with a bunch of shorters what purpose does it serve? It's not like PTM needs capital and so wants to prop up its SP for a raise. It doesn't seem like the best sort of thing to be preoccupying management with and Kerr Nielsen doesn't seem like a guy who is that interested in a p!ssing contest.

Interesting about the Morninstar rating and the effect it has on fund flow.


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## ukulele (28 November 2016)

Interesting day. Market broadly moves down, IFL has a wide up day with strong volume. Perhaps a move back into "bond like" stocks, or am I missing something?


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## Muschu (26 June 2017)

I'm no technical analyst but bought into this one on an uptrend not so long ago at $9.  It continued to do well but seems to have peaked for the moment.
I'm considering adding but wondering whether there is a retracement in the wind and where a buying point may be.
Any TA suggestions on where the chart is heading please?


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## tech/a (26 June 2017)

*IFL*

Technically its still strong

This currently looks like a pull back.
Just draw in a trend line and keep a
look at that.

Be wary if you see a *very* high volume down day with range.


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## Muschu (26 June 2017)

tech/a said:


> *IFL*
> 
> Technically its still strong
> 
> ...




Don't really know how to draw in a trend line Tech/A but noticed a tiny gap in chart around $9.46... Of any significance?


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## tech/a (26 June 2017)

Muschu said:


> I'm no technical analyst but bought into this one on an uptrend not so long ago at $9.  It continued to do well but seems to have peaked for the moment.
> I'm considering adding but wondering whether there is a retracement in the wind and where a buying point may be.
> Any TA suggestions on where the chart is heading please?






Muschu said:


> Don't really know how to draw in a trend line Tech/A but noticed a tiny gap in chart around $9.46... Of any significance?




Not really (The gap)

See chart






	

		
			
		

		
	
See chart


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## Muschu (26 June 2017)

Thanks for that..... And I get the point about volume.... That aside, maybe around $9.60 ...


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## sptrawler (26 June 2017)

I've had these since they took over Australian Wealth Management, a long time ago. Apart from the scandal they got into a couple of years ago, they've been generally a good investment.


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## So_Cynical (26 June 2017)

One of the few fund managers not getting sold off.


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## greggles (8 August 2017)

Release of the FY 2017 Financial Results has seen IFY jump six percent today.



> *Result overview*
> 
> UNPAT of $169.4 million (2H16/17: $90.0 million, up 13% vs 1H16/17)
> Final proposed fully franked dividend per share of 27 cents per share - up 4% vs 1H16/17
> ...


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## skc (8 August 2017)

greggles said:


> Release of the FY 2017 Financial Results has seen IFY jump six percent today.




Good growth in advisors and FUM and solid costs management... and holding it's gains despite a weak negative market. The chart's been strong leading into the result and pushing 5 year highs ($11).


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## peter2 (18 July 2018)

IFL has been caught up in the selling in the financial sector, but there are bullish signs. 
Today's minor BO of a small consolidation looks promising. IFL will need the market and other financials to rally. Target is the old highs at 11.50.


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## peter2 (24 July 2018)

Supply swamped the IFL market yesterday and sent prices down. An ugly day for a short term trader and there's no reason for me to hold it any longer.


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## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

That's a big change of heart, in a short period of time Peter.


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## peter2 (24 July 2018)

Yep, a short term trader has to adapt quickly. That huge down day was ugly, especially without any news. Now if I was a medium term holder I'd put my iSL below the last low (8.60) and I'd not be too concerned about the spike down. I wouldn't like it that I'd be losing a little but there's nothing to do yet. 

I wouldn't be the only retail trader to have a sell order below the low at 9.00. This is a good level to probe if I was an insto buyer. I'd sell a little to spook the retail traders (like P2) and buy all they're selling. I know this happens, so it's worth keeping an eye on the price moves today and tomorrow. If it's a "stop hunt", price should rebound quickly. 

As I write this, price is now back above today's open. This sort of rebound can be anticipated by a intra-day trader. 



What I'm trying to point out is that there are opportunities for all types of traders if you've got a plan appropriate to your trading style. 
A medium term trader with a conservative iSL is not concerned. They're OK.
A short term trader with a tighter iSL sells quickly and looks for another opportunity. They're OK.
An intraday trader looks for high volume and waits for their setups at interesting levels. They're OK.


----------



## peter2 (24 July 2018)

Traders have problems when they mix trading styles. 
eg. A medium term trader wants to hold IFL because the opportunity looks great and uses a tighter iSL so that they can buy more shares than if they select a more conservative iSL. One big down day and they're in trouble, but they don't sell quickly because they think the price won't fall any further. We know what happens next.
eg. A short term trader uses a larger iSL and buys fewer shares than they should. They're risking less but they'll make less when they get it right. 
eg. A short term trader sells after the big down day and then immediately looks for an intra-day setup to re-enter. Does this trader have an edge using another trading style? Probably not.

It's a fascinating business isn't it.


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## HelloU (24 July 2018)

peter2 said:


> ........ especially without any news. Now if I was a medium term holder I'd put my iSL below the last low (8.60) and I'd not be too concerned about the spike down.......



hey, are u talking a trailing stop here cos in profit from much earlier trade or are u talking just a looser initial stop from the recent buy in here in posts above? I am having difficulty with ur intended context of this bit and can read it both ways...which is ok with me for both....just unsure which one u meant.


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## HelloU (24 July 2018)

maybe u answered that whilst I was typing...I will read what u wrote


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## peter2 (24 July 2018)

sptrawler commented on my apparent quick change of heart re IFL. I tried to say that this is OK for a shorter term trader. In fact it's necessary. 

A medium term trader could have bought the BO like I did but select a more conservative iSL (below 8.60). In this case the trade is carrying a small loss but there's no need to sell after the huge down day. This trader can wait to see if this much lower price will attract "value" investors. Today's price action looks like it did as price has bounced.


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## HelloU (24 July 2018)

thx, sorta worked out from your 2nd post that u were talking about MT/LT buy scenario if entry was timed at ur wednesday post........(not some previous historic entry).

(it was always clear this was a comparison to a ST set up)


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## notting (30 October 2018)

Seems to be riding mirroring AMP down which I would say is a tad unfair!!
For longer term hold this is buying opportunity when it isn't making a lower low!!!


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## sptrawler (30 October 2018)

Picked up a few today, I can't see how there will be too much disruption, to their model. Once the dust settles from the Royal Commission, I would expect the business to pick up, they also added the ANZ business which should increase the bottom line.


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## jbocker (7 December 2018)

Down 35.7%. OUCH. That is a big drop and looks like it might take a while to sort out with top management being threatened with disqualification by APRA.
Unlike banks that can sell off their financial advising woes and still have their banking business. Is THE bread and butter going to toast for IOOF?


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## sptrawler (7 December 2018)

This IMO may be seen as a test case.
Just my opinion.
I do hold and hope they have better council, than APRA.


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## jbocker (7 December 2018)

sptrawler said:


> This IMO may be seen as a test case.
> Just my opinion.
> I do hold and hope they have better council, than APRA.



Good Luck SP. Going to be very interesting for this industry.


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## sptrawler (8 December 2018)

Well even if it goes ar$e up, it is only money, there is a lot more to be lost in the next 3 to4 years. IMO


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## So_Cynical (8 December 2018)

jbocker said:


> Good Luck SP. Going to be very interesting for this industry.




The only winner i can see so far is EQT - Equity Trustees, up 4.3% today closing close to an all time high, EQT mostly just do trustee services.


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## sptrawler (8 December 2018)

So_Cynical said:


> The only winner i can see so far is EQT - Equity Trustees, up 4.3% today closing close to an all time high, EQT mostly just do trustee services.



One would guess it will be hard for IOOF, someone has to cop a spanking, and they are probably the low hanging fruit.
Both sides of politics will want this bedded down before the election. IMO
It is causing a lot of angst in the electorate.
From the voters perspective, not only is the asx tanking and the capital falling, but every day in the media they are being told the people holding their money are ripping them off.
Then they expect further problems after the election, it isn't a rosy picture. Imo


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## So_Cynical (8 December 2018)

IOOF has lost 2.5 billion in market cap since August -50%


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## Miner (8 December 2018)

Almost overnight IFL fate gone south. With the allegation probably the final blow could be much worse than Royal Commission on AMP. Who knows the next company?
I always had a respect on perceived ethical values with IFL but I was wrong.


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## HelloU (10 December 2018)

2009 event
already been thru civil actions
asic investigated already

in a country where the employment growth industry is looking over the shoulders of others not sure who the winners of this are expected to be .....but i see plenty of losers


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## tinhat (10 December 2018)

For those of you who don't know the history behind IOOF and mutual/friendly funds more generally, there is perhaps some irony in these events. Friendly or Mutual societies were a common form of savings and insurance association formed and owned by their members to benefit their common financial interests. They were the most common structure for insurance businesses until relatively recent times.

IOOF was a mutual fund formed in 1846 by the Independent Order of Odd Fellows.

It was only in recent times in Australia that these mutual associations decided it was in the interests of their members and their future efficient market operations to transition from member owned institutions to a shareholder owned corporation. Usually members, comprising policy and account holders made a small windfall profit from being allocated shares through the corporatisation process which unlocked the intrinsic capital value of the businesses as listed corporations.

IOOF demutualised in 2002. Other examples of now demutualised and corporatised mutual societies/associations include the Australian Mutual Provident Society, formed in 1848 and NRMA Insurance, formerly owned and operated by the National Roads and Motorists Association.

The same process has happened with most of the producer cooperatives which once saw the processing, distribution and marketing of primary production such as cheese and dairy (for example, Murray Goulburn Co Ltd). These farmer cooperatives were owned by and for the benefit of the farmers. How did that work out for the farmers?

In all these cases bankers, advisors, brokers and management and the original cooperative and mutual members all made a quick short-term windfall. Whether those members or society at large have benefited in the long run, especially given the poor state of market and corporate oversight in this county, is another matter.


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## sptrawler (10 December 2018)

tinhat said:


> In all these cases bankers, advisors, brokers and management and the original cooperative and mutual members all made a quick short-term windfall. Whether those members or society at large have benefited in the long run, especially given the poor state of market and corporate oversight in this county, is another matter.




the only co op that I can think of that has done o.k, is Wesfarmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesfarmers

Good write up tinhat.


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 December 2018)

Please excuse me for being a muppet if this question is idiotic.

How much of the IOOF muppet superannuant's money depends on the share price of IFL (IOOF)?

Is there a run on IOOF assets by retirees and superannuants with assets in IFL ?

Are we in a Manny Cassimatis Storm Financial scenario?

gg


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## sptrawler (29 December 2018)

I think there will be a big rebound, once the dust settles from the RC. 
Also I would expect a lot of consolidation in the super sector, as regulatory requirements become more onerous and are strictly enforced. 
Well for the short to medium term.


----------



## sptrawler (19 February 2019)

Great set of numbers from IOOF.

Ist Half 2019 results


----------



## sptrawler (19 February 2019)

Up 16% today.


----------



## bigdog (19 February 2019)

Motley Fool reports
https://www.fool.com.au/2019/02/19/ioof-share-price-surges-on-unexpectedly-solid-results/

*IOOF share price surges on unexpectedly solid results*
Cale Kalinowski | February 19, 2019

The* IOOF Holdings Limited * (ASX: IFL) share price skyrocketed today, closing 16.42% higher at $6.17. This comes after the company posted a solid set of interim results despite a bruised reputation after the financial services provider was slammed by the Royal Commission.

IOOF achieved a 200% increase in statutory net profit after tax (NPAT) driven by one-off items including a $34 million profit from the sale of the company’s corporate trust business.

The numbers were also solid on an underlying basis, with 6% growth in underlying NPAT. Acting CEO, Renato Mota said that the result was a reflection of the strength of the company’s diversified business model. The acquisition of ANZ Wealth Management also benefited the result.

The company acknowledged that trust needed to be rebuilt and changes made that will lead to better outcomes for clients. “IOOF is fully supportive of Royal Commission recommendations that will lead to a better, stronger financial services industry for the benefit of all Australians,” Mr Mota said.

IOOF hasn’t yet felt the full impact of the Royal Commission. The company signaled additional compliance and regulatory costs in the range of $20 – $30 million which will be incurred commencing immediately and into FY20.


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## Ann (24 February 2019)

...and a chart. Other than the PVI (Positive Volume Index) which is not rising, all the other indicators are looking positive. Money flow, MACD, Volume, NVI (Negative Volume Index) are all looking fine.
The area that gives me concern for IFL is the falling overhead resistance line coming from March 2018 and the 200day SMA which is running pretty close to that falling resistance line. Both of these areas may cause a barrier and will need a solid push to get above them. Interesting to watch.


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## sptrawler (24 February 2019)

Thanks for that Ann, I have been a long term holder and added more when they went under $5.
It would be nice to have a win for a change.
Your comments are as always, great to hear.


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## Ann (24 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for that Ann, I have been a long term holder and added more when they went under $5.
> It would be nice to have a win for a change.
> Your comments are as always, great to hear.



Thank you for the kind words sptrawler, I must admit to being a bit bearish about many stocks at the moment, so fingers crossed it does the right thing for you!


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## tech/a (24 February 2019)

I’m afraid when you look at volume and this current high 
Within the gap it looks very bearish 
To alter this view IFL needs to break strongly away from this 
Topping pattern on volume


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## sptrawler (24 February 2019)

I will be looking to reduce on most of my stocks, in preperation for the Bill, but this was a dollar cost averaging requirement, a massive restructure is happening at my place. Lol


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## Ann (25 February 2019)

tech/a said:


> I’m afraid when you look at volume and this current high
> Within the gap it looks very bearish
> To alter this view IFL needs to break strongly away from this
> Topping pattern on volume



Hi Tech/a, try as I might and I have just again spent an hour or so going through my trading books to try to get a grip on Volume as an indicator of price movement, nothing really clear. What exactly are you seeing in the Volume that gives you a bearish view in this instance? I will give a two month view of price and volume if you could explain it to us, I am not seeing anything other than one big increase followed by three lower but still better than average volume. What am I missing?  What would you look for in the volumes if there was going to be a price rise?


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## tech/a (25 February 2019)

Ann

*Great question.
*
Although experience plays a large part and 1000s of charts will give you that
As an answer to your question it would be useless. But after I give you the answer
you should be able to look at Volume AND Range differently each time you see a
chart and add it as part of your analysis.

So where volume occurs is important and what happens straight after it appears 
adds more to the story being read.

High volume either means that 
(1) It is seeking out supply and happy to pay more as the Stock is in demand (Bullish)
OR
(2)Supply is meeting demand as it comes in and continues.(Bearish)

*Bullish*
Range will be wider than normal in the direction of the move.
Often accompanied with a gap.
OR
Volume will occur with no real consequence to range withing a 
consolidation often prolonged after a down move. This can 
precede a bullish move as supply is exhausted. Moves up 
from here are often on modest volume OR Wide range appears.
There can be multiple high volume bars before price moves appreciably 
forward.

*Bearish*

The opposite to Bullish with price behaving similarly but dropping
In IFL's case Price is filling the gap.
Bars are getting shorter on moderate volume meeting current supply.
To move forward supply needs to slow to the point where demand searches higher
prices to be filled and here we will see range increase.
So an increasing range in either direction--supported by volume or not indicates
(1) Supply over coming demand---Bearish
(2) Demand searching for supply ---Bullish.

Low volume and low range supports consolidation at a level.

*Ann*

You will find this a fascinating topic 
Once you get a grip on it you will be able to see what most cant.
Right now IFL is at a really interesting point.
Fail (Likely) or continue (Cant see signs YET!)

Provided liquidity is present you can see this in all time frames.


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## Ann (25 February 2019)

tech/a said:


> You will find this a fascinating topic
> Once you get a grip on it you will be able to see what most cant.
> Right now IFL is at a really interesting point.
> Fail (Likely) or continue (Cant see signs YET!)
> ...




Thank you Tech/a, I will spend time on this, much time!


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## Ann (25 February 2019)

Looking purely at volume on an EquiVolume chart, I can't see any large volume pressure over the last 18 months. As there has been no selling pressure IFL has been able to close the gap. The only resistance I can see now is the falling overhead resistance line.


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## peter2 (25 February 2019)

Volume should be considered along with the range of a bar. In the IFL equivolume chart there are three significant high volume bars. 





1. Massive gap down with very high volume. This is significant and definitely selling pressure as the close was far lower than the top of the gap. 
2. Another high volume bar (equivolume bars indicate volume size by their width) but this time the range is much lower than the previous bar. This indicates demand absorbed the supply as the range was smaller. 
These two bars could be considered a selling climax as the last of the longer term holders have sold. 
Low volume drift up is an automatic reaction to the low prices, but the low needs to be tested. 
3. This is a significant sign of demand as the volume was high and the range bigger than all bars since #1. 

Price still hasn't filled the gap created by the #1 bar and there'll be supply near 7.00 as many holders will probably be relieved to get the chance to sell after a horrible ride down. Expect some resistance here and in time at your sloping resistance line. With more time this line may meet price near the 7.00 level.


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## tech/a (25 February 2019)

tech/a said:


> To alter this view IFL needs to break strongly away from this
> Topping pattern on volume




Looks like it is doing better than I thought.


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## Ann (26 February 2019)

IFL has had a retrace today (not shown on this delayed price chart) after yesterdays effort to seal the gap, let's see if the recent high volume at a high of 6.26 will give it a floor from which to try for another rise?


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## Ann (3 March 2019)

The main index holding IFL is the $XXJ, this has just stepped over the 200dsma which is a very bullish sign for Financials. It has been struggling to rise above this since early in February and now it has had four out of five days this week above that level.

Back to IFL - I see a falling overhead resistance line about to be challenged as well as the all important 200dsma. Looking at the EquiVolume chart I can see selling pressure up to $7.40. Twiggs Money Flow is showing positive inflows and the NVI (Negative Volume Index)(not show) is in positive territory as well. 
My thoughts are bullish, let's see how it copes with the falling overhead resistance.


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## Ann (9 March 2019)

An update, it appears the long term overhead falling resistance line saw the price roll away from it. There is a very long term support line coming from 2007 at $6.14. Let's see if this can offer some price support.


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## HelloU (9 March 2019)

(this thing fell out of the 100)


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## Ann (9 March 2019)

HelloU said:


> (this thing fell out of the 100)



It may be sold upwards as the funds slowly divest themselves. I have noticed this sometimes in the past with a S&P rebalance. Let's see this time.


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## So_Cynical (9 March 2019)

Price looks to be rolling over - will go sub 6 before we see a come back.


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## Ann (11 March 2019)

There was a front page headline on the online AFR today. I am not a subscriber so no idea if it will have any impact.

* Timber fight another blow to IOOF *
By Adele Ferguson
Beleaguered wealth group IOOF faces a forest of problems, including fresh legal action over a timber business.


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## Luckysevens7 (15 March 2019)

Class action to be filed against IOOF: www.ioofclassaction.com.au/


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## JTLP (15 May 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> Price looks to be rolling over - will go sub 6 before we see a come back.




Where does this sit with you now? $5.47 and some headwinds, but a comeback on the cards?


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## notting (15 May 2019)

I'd be very cautious about this stock.
The legal actions against it are potentially very large and the CEO finally ran away after a 10 year stint of arrogantly snubbing regulators.


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## So_Cynical (15 May 2019)

JTLP said:


> Where does this sit with you now? $5.47 and some headwinds, but a comeback on the cards?



Well at some point we will see a comeback or it goes to oblivion, we could revisit 4 something or bounce along a bit, if you like the stock its cheap again.


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## JTLP (3 June 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> Well at some point we will see a comeback or it goes to oblivion, we could revisit 4 something or bounce along a bit, if you like the stock its cheap again.




$4 something might be on the cards. Not looking pretty.


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## sptrawler (27 June 2019)

They seem to be trimming down, probably for the fight ahead, IOOF sold off its 70% share of Ord Minnett. 
Booked an $83m profit, but the court case, over its superannuation arm, starts on Monday

https://www.smh.com.au/business/mar...al-with-management-group-20190627-p521ye.html


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## HelloU (28 June 2019)

my head said there was meant to be some news on the naughty corner by the end of fiscal? is there a date?

(licence or similar)


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## notting (1 July 2019)

> Lawyers for former IOOF managing director Chris Kelaher say the prudential regulator's claims against him are "vague" and "unarticulated".
> 
> The Australian Prudential Regulation Authority is seeking orders to disqualify Mr Kelaher from acting as a superannuation trustee.
> 
> ...




*'Not a breach in itself' *is all the court will hear of all that, so far!


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## sptrawler (25 July 2019)

Reasonable set of numbers from IOOF, considering.
I do tentatively hold. 

https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20190725/pdf/446w1x58gx1vjb.pdf

Also the outcome of the APRA court case, against IOOF directors, doesn't seem to be a foregone conclusion.

https://www.afr.com/chanticleer/ioof-claims-apra-shifted-court-goalposts-20190720-p5295c

From the article:
_While it is always difficult to speculate on the outcome of such a complex case, it seems clear that APRA’s first big legal case in a generation is no lay down misere.

If APRA was to lose, there will be inevitable questions for Byres about whether APRA was too eager to get legal action going after being criticised so heavily by the royal commission for an apparent lack of toughness.

At rough estimates the legal bills run up by all sides could top $20 million. If the worst happened, and APRA was ordered to pay the respondents’ costs, then Byres' budgetary woes would moun_t.


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## sptrawler (21 August 2019)

IOOF to give its end of year results on Monday- 26 August.

Also they seem to be actively sorting the APRA licence requirements.
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20190820/pdf/447ndp1fpl7jd0.pdf

From the article:

_APRA licence conditions An independent reviewer engaged by IOOF to review the ongoing status and quality of compliance with the APRA licence conditions identified 145 actionable items within the overarching initiatives which were required to be implemented for the quarter to 30 June 2019. A previous update on progress was provided to the market in April 2019. The independent reviewer has finalised their report for the quarter to 30 June 2019 which notes: • All 145 actionable items required for validation for the quarter to 30 June 2019 have been completed. • The four actionable items relating to the implementation of the Office of the Superannuation Trustee which were outstanding for the quarter ended 31 March 2019, have been completed_ .

Hopefully this will see them out of the woods.
I do hold IFL.


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## Faramir (21 August 2019)

IOOF has been on my watchlist since it's fall from grace last Dec 2018. I am not sure why I haven't put the time into investigating/studying IFL. Maybe I was dreaming of being a contrarian with IFL. I must admit I don't understand this stock. I really at least try to understand why it got got into trouble in the first place. (Re: Banking Royal Commission might give me a hint or am I way off track????) This company seems too complex for me. (I have poor concentration abilities, I need simple businesses to look at.)

No wonder I sit on the sidelines and just various announcements. Good luck @sptrawler I hope next Monday will be a good day for you.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2019)

Faramir said:


> IOOF has been on my watchlist since it's fall from grace last Dec 2018. I am not sure why I haven't put the time into investigating/studying IFL. Maybe I was dreaming of being a contrarian with IFL. I must admit I don't understand this stock. I really at least try to understand why it got got into trouble in the first place. (Re: Banking Royal Commission might give me a hint or am I way off track????) This company seems too complex for me. (I have poor concentration abilities, I need simple businesses to look at.)
> 
> No wonder I sit on the sidelines and just various announcements. Good luck @sptrawler I hope next Monday will be a good day for you.



Yes Farimir, as with all these investment style companies, there seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors, I have had them for a long time back when they swallowed Australian Wealth Management.
They expanded and grew very quickly, who knows maybe too quickly. Also they seemed to always be stepping on APRA's toes.
Anyway I'm just hoping they come through this RC fallout, if they do they will climb quickly IMO, if they don't well I've probably done my dough. 

As you say Monday will tell a lot, inflows and outflows of funds under management, will show which way sentiment is going.


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## HelloU (22 August 2019)

agree SP that report will be the line in the sand .......... so reluctant to say out loud how divs and stuff seem to come back to the share price in these sorts of situations (rather than a previously held div level that lifts the sp back up - previous like for like was 27cents). Dunno ......


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2019)

Well a good set of numbers for IOOF, if you take out the provisioning for dodgy behaviour.
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20190826/pdf/447trffvb2kvqd.pdf

From the article:
Underlying NPAT up 3.4% to $198m
Statutory profit down 67% after provisioning.
Total funds under management up 18.7% to $149.5 billion.
Fully franked dividend 19cents.
I do hold.


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## notting (26 August 2019)

notting said:


> I'd be very cautious about this stock.
> The legal actions against it are potentially very large and the CEO finally ran away after a 10 year stint of arrogantly snubbing regulators.




Was trading at 5.64 when I made the above observation.
Is now at 4.80 with a large cut to it's dividend.  The dividend being a reason why many Muppets would still hold it. ( I like Muppets they are basically innocent share holders that often get taken along for unexpected rides!)

The most important announcement amidst it's reporting is this -
It increased it *customer compensation costs from guidance of just $10 million in December* last year *to $235 million* today.
Whilst operations have been good in the current low return and wild environment, the operational performance numbers are largely due to banks tossing away their wealth management funds and companies like IFL being able to lap them up at good prices, it's important to note the culture which IOOF claim to be changing whilst offering up guidance like the above!!
Let's face it, it's a wealth manager, guidance is their thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IFl's record on treating the customers is one of the *most illegal* out of all the transgressions of wealth managers and the banks as found by the RC.  However they still managed to perform, unlike AMP.

Those in the know suspect the compensation number could end up in the Billions and how could you trust that it won't when 10 turns into 235 from one reporting season to another.  What will the next guidance be you might want to ask!!?


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2019)

notting said:


> Was trading at 5.64 when I made the above observation.
> Is now at 4.80 with a large cut to it's dividend.  The dividend being a reason why many Muppets would still hold it. ( I like Muppets they are basically innocent share holders that often get taken along for unexpected rides!)




I resemble that remark.
I suppose you could call it a poor dividend, but I guess it depends what you compare it to?
A full year dividend of 44.5 cents, pretty close to 10% fully franked, compares pretty well with most others.
Could go pear shaped, but I guess it depends when you bought them and what you paid.


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## notting (26 August 2019)

The risk is actually around 650m in compensation for IOOF .  The billions was collectively along with AMP.
They could manage that over time but  it could be pretty destructive to dividends for the next  6 or so years and if the markets go hay wire because fund managers stock valuations go absolutely nuts in these climates and the shi7 hasn't even hit the fan yet. Soo much potential volatility.  You may be able to pick  it up under a dollar in the next 18 months.
There has not been much reputational damage in the ordinary world yet, but the news papers will take care of that when all the fines start mounting up and execs start getting jail sentences (hardly a good marketing look) that could also effect inflows dramatically not to mention outflows à la AMP!!


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2019)

notting said:


> The risk is actually around 650m in compensation for IOOF .  The billions was collectively along with AMP.
> They could manage that over time but  it could be pretty destructive to dividends for the next  6 or so years and if the markets go hay wire because fund managers stock valuations go absolutely nuts in these climates and the shi7 hasn't even hit the fan yet. Soo much potential volatility.  You may be able to pick  it up under a dollar in the next 18 months.
> There has not been much reputational damage in the ordinary world yet, but the news papers will take care of that when all the fines start mounting up and execs start getting jail sentences (hardly a good marketing look) that could also effect inflows dramatically not to mention outflows à la AMP!!



That is all very true, but faint heart and all that, it wasn't long ago that BHP were $12, because a dam in South America let go and 19 people were killed.
WBC agreed to a $35m fine to ASIC, but they were taken to court anyway, then WBC was cleared and awarded costs.
Not saying it will end well for IFl, but it isn't a foregone conclusion it will be as you paint it either, that is the nature of the game you never make a killing from a sure thing in the share market. IMO
Without risk, the reward is never very startling, usually mediocre at best.
IOOF have provisioned for over $182m after independent assessment, it all depends on what the courts decide is misconduct, as opposed to poor choice by investors I suppose.
Just my opinion.


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## sptrawler (27 August 2019)

More complete report on IFL performance and situation. I do hold IFL.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/markets/ioof-sets-aside-235m-after-advice-review-ng-s-1963559


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## HelloU (28 August 2019)

HelloU said:


> agree SP that report will be the line in the sand .......... so reluctant to say out loud how divs and stuff seem to come back to the share price in these sorts of situations (rather than a previously held div level that lifts the sp back up - previous like for like was 27cents). Dunno ......



so will say it now out loud ....... (divs and stuff seem to come back to the share price in these sorts of situations) ...... and SP now seems a little too high for now on the historical return/risk scenario at 12cents ..........

anyway, still dunno.


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2019)

HelloU said:


> so will say it now out loud ....... (divs and stuff seem to come back to the share price in these sorts of situations) ...... and SP now seems a little too high for now on the historical return/risk scenario at 12cents ..........
> 
> anyway, still dunno.



Oh well another for the bottom draw lol. 
I still feel there is a better than even chance that IFL will come through the RC fallout o.k, they are still attracting inflows, which is a lot better than can be said about AMP.


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## HelloU (28 August 2019)

i see the in as well, and the new name to make it work ..... and have 2 thoughts (cos I have no idea). 
1. if the money tucked away does get used then $5 will look expensive, and
2. if the money tucked away does not get used then $5 will look cheap.

that is all i have got - and does not help at all.


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## notting (29 August 2019)

Bottom lines -
Just remember we are at the end of the Cycle not the beginning.
This is not the time to speculate on a fund manager with questionable credibility and a CEO who has jumped ship!

Both MQG and MFG the best an most brilliant fund managers in this country and arguable the world (done much better than Goldman Sachs since 2008 in terms of real money expansion for instance,) have just done capital raising.  This is as good a indicator as you will get that the sh&t is about to hit the fan. They are ahead of the gain and geared up for what's to come.
MQG especially is very reluctant to do CRs as it is so reputable to do the right thing by share holders.  So it's serious!


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## HelloU (29 August 2019)

notting said:


> Bottom lines -
> Just remember we are at the end of the Cycle not the beginning.
> This is not the time to speculate on a fund manager with questionable credibility and a CEO who has jumped ship!
> 
> ...



hey, this is not a comment on your post as i have not read it yet ..... coz my head is spinning ..... cos the end of a cycle is the beginning of the next cycle (by definition) ....love ur work btw and laughing (hopefully with you but if not I will laugh alone - I can do a lot of things alone)


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## sptrawler (30 August 2019)

notting said:


> Bottom lines -
> 
> Both MQG and MFG the best an most brilliant fund managers in this country and arguable the world (done much better than Goldman Sachs since 2008 in terms of real money expansion for instance,) have just done capital raising.  !



You do realise they went to $15 post GFC, from memory the Government guarantee saved their ar$e.
I remember this, because a couple of mates had them and were arguing whether to offload them or keep them. They both kept them and have done really well.
Wish I had bought in, hindsight is a wonderfull thing.


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## sptrawler (6 September 2019)

notting said:


> Bottom lines -
> Just remember we are at the end of the Cycle not the beginning.
> This is not the time to speculate on a fund manager with questionable credibility and a CEO who has jumped ship!
> !




IFL has a rocket under it, does someone know something I don't?


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## notting (11 September 2019)

That's not a rocket, it's just running up to its div payment, after which it will most likely be more like and stone in a pond. Big demand for divs in general is helping at the moment too.
I'm waiting for this correction in gold to play out then will be going hard into that!!.
The world is on fire, literally.
Then there is the financial system -


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## HelloU (11 September 2019)

wasn't the div 19cents?  dunno and not checking

this has run near 70cents or something, dunno and not checking ...... 

maybe the old index self fulfilling prophecy in play?? the more they buy the more they have to buy to keep up??

Last day today cum so will be interesting tomoz.


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## sptrawler (11 September 2019)

HelloU said:


> wasn't the div 19cents?  dunno and not checking
> 
> this has run near 70cents or something, dunno and not checking ......
> 
> ...



Well if ASIC go down in flames with WBC court case, it will be interesting to see how much appetite they have, to keep rolling out litigation.
I think the price is a reflection of confidence, that they have a good chance of clearing their name.
Interesting times, I do hold.


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## notting (11 September 2019)

There is resistance here at 6.
If it stays above that after the div payment it will be very strange indeed!


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## HelloU (11 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Well if ASIC go down in flames with WBC court case, it will be interesting to see how much appetite they have, to keep rolling out litigation.
> I think the price is a reflection of confidence, that they have a good chance of clearing their name.
> Interesting times, I do hold.



I see asic are having another crack at that. 
Agree Notting, and certainly I raise my eyebrows at the present (which again proves I have no idea) .... talk of ANZ thing getting priced in ..... dunno.


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## notting (20 September 2019)

*Massive - *
Update on Federal Court proceedingsIOOF welcomes today’s decision by the Federal Court of Australia in relation to proceedings brought by APRA against IOOF’s APRA regulated entities (IOOF Investment Management Limited and Questor Financial Services Limited) and five individuals who were responsible persons of those entities at relevant times. The Court held that IOOF’s APRA regulated entities and the five individuals did not contravene the Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Act 1993 (Cth). The Court also declined to make the disqualification orders sought against the five individuals,and awarded costs in IOOF’s favour. IOOF is currently reviewing the written judgment in detail and expects toissue a further announcement in due course.


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## sptrawler (20 September 2019)

notting said:


> *Massive - *
> Update on Federal Court proceedingsIOOF welcomes today’s decision by the Federal Court of Australia in relation to proceedings brought by APRA against IOOF’s APRA regulated entities (IOOF Investment Management Limited and Questor Financial Services Limited) and five individuals who were responsible persons of those entities at relevant times. The Court held that IOOF’s APRA regulated entities and the five individuals did not contravene the Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Act 1993 (Cth). The Court also declined to make the disqualification orders sought against the five individuals,and awarded costs in IOOF’s favour. IOOF is currently reviewing the written judgment in detail and expects toissue a further announcement in due course.




I said it wasn't a lay down mazaire, APRA and ASIC are going to lose a LOT of taxpayers money IMO.
A lot of the problem IMO is the press is so used to getting whatever they write, come to fruition, that everyone thinks anything they write is fact.
The problem for APRA and ASIC is the courts only deal with facts, not warm politically correct, feel good intentions.


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## notting (20 September 2019)

This is a huge result.
It wasn't just the press it was people like MQG who saw the damage to be significant not just from APRA and ASIC but from follow up class actions that would have been very strong on the back of a conviction.
Now they got nothing.
There could be an appeal but not likely to be upheld.
Whilst there are still headwinds for the financial markets coming into US elections and the realization of the Trump Tax Cut Trillion Dollar Deficit Man vs God knows what market crashing Democrat he will be up against. Then a potential market explosion in China.  Could be a very ugly period for fundies but not today it seems!


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## sptrawler (20 September 2019)

notting said:


> This is a huge result.
> It wasn't just the press it was people like MQG who saw the damage to be significant not just from APRA and ASIC but from follow up class actions that would have been very strong on the back of a conviction.
> Now they got nothing.
> There could be an appeal but not likely to be upheld.
> Whilst there are still headwinds for the financial markets coming into US elections and the realization of the Trump Tax Cut Trillion Dollar Deficit Man vs God knows what market crashing Democrat he will be up against. Then a potential market explosion in China.  Could be a very ugly period for fundies but not today it seems!



My guess is a lot of APRA and ASIC's court actions will be reviewed, to make a decision whether to proceed or not, it will be interesting.
With regard Trump and China, it will be sorted and the main driving theme, for Trumps election campaign. This could be the start of the ASX breaking the shackles, just my gut feeling, which in the past has turned out to be wind.


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## sptrawler (23 September 2019)

notting said:


> This is a huge result.
> !



You are not kidding notting, $6.30 this morning.
I wonder if the IOOF managers, will have some recourse against APRA, for being stood down?


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## sptrawler (23 September 2019)

I wonder if this is the beginning of the road back for IOOF, $4.80 one month ago, $6.70 today. 
Maybe the charts will show it is just a flash in the pan, I hope not, I do hold.


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## Faramir (24 September 2019)

@sptrawler I think long term IOOF will return its formerly self (share price wise). I am left wondering should have I taken a contrarian position one month ago when things did look grim??? Well I said I don't understand this type of business - best to sit on the sidelines and wonder what would have been than to take a gamble. It would have been a gamble for me because I was not expecting last week's court case ruling to come out.

Good luck sptrawler, I hope it turns out OK for you in the long run.


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## sptrawler (17 October 2019)

IOOF to pick up ANZ's wealth management for $825m, a reduction of $125m on the original agreed price, due to changing market conditions.
That is as long as APRA approve it, big jump in share price on the news.
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20191017/pdf/449l56vqk960x0.pdf
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20191017/pdf/449l62rtt3djtg.pdf

I do hold IFL.


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## sptrawler (18 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is a lot of APRA and ASIC's court actions will be reviewed, to make a decision whether to proceed or not, it will be interesting.



APRA has decided not to appeal the decision against the Federal Court rulings, that ruled against them regarding IOOF entities and managers.
https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20191018/pdf/449m9zv4x6shqs.pdf


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## sptrawler (24 October 2019)

IOOF quarterly accounts showing an increase in inflows, price rising accordingly.

https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20191024/pdf/449tjlyr6d8qf0.pdf

I do hold


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## sptrawler (11 November 2019)

Still looking good, I may have survived this one, well and truely in the black.
For now.


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## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

IOOF have taken a $36.4m hit to its profit, since picking up the ANZ super and investment arm, now to see if the purchase was worthwhile or a white elephant.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/ban...fit-falls-after-anz-deal-20200218-p541rt.html

I do hold.


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## sptrawler (30 April 2020)

IFL market update figures sound reasonable.

https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200430/pdf/44hdjtsmd78j0x.pdf

Still holding.


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## sptrawler (25 May 2020)

Class action against IFL dropped.
https://www.moneymanagement.com.au/...sed-class-action-against-ioof-settles-quietly
From the article:
_The class action had been brought by law firm Quinn Emanuel Urquhart and Sullivan on behalf of shareholders who had acquired an interest in IOOF’s shares between 27 May, 2015, and 9 August, 2018, with the company saying at the time the action appeared to be based on evidence given to the Royal Commission and that APRA had commenced legal proceedings against certain officers of IOOF

The APRA action which appeared to underpin the class action failed in court last year.

IOOF noted that it was making no payment to the plaintiff, its lawyers or the litigation funder and was very happy with the outcome_.


Still holding.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2020)

Latest update by IFL, on FUM and money flows.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/ban...flows-execs-take-pay-cut-20200730-p55gu1.html

Still holding.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2020)

Ioof to buy MLC from NAB for $1.4billion, well this will be very interesting.
https://www.theage.com.au/business/...th-business-in-1-4b-deal-20200831-p55qsr.html
The deal will swell IOOF's funds under management to $510 billion, with $173 billion of this in superannuation monies. Mr Mota said scale was critical for the company's success.
It looks like a make or break moment to me. They will have to be nimble to take on the industry funds.

I do hold.


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## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

After careful thought and wanting to save some capital, I've thought discretion is the better part of valour and lightened up considerably.


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## wabullfrog (17 September 2020)

@sptrawler looks like you got out just in time. 

Down near March levels with lots of unhappy share owners on HC as well as burning a few Sub Underwriters.









						Subbies ready for red ink at IOOF
					

Sub-underwriters are set to be hit with the year's first big shortfall.




					www.afr.com
				




Wonder how close it is to bottoming out?


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## Chronos-Plutus (17 September 2020)

wabullfrog said:


> @sptrawler looks like you got out just in time.
> 
> Down near March levels with lots of unhappy share owners on HC as well as burning a few Sub Underwriters.
> 
> ...




I haven't really been following this however it looks like a dilution tantrum stemming from the acquisition of MLC. Not sure how profitable MLC is or why NAB want to offload it.

What doesn't make sense to me is why have IOOF done a massive equity dilution to raise funds to acquire MLC when the regulators haven't given approval?





*(https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200831/pdf/44m40s3w3vwb9d.pdf)*





(https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200831/pdf/44m40v723jmmv7.pdf)


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## Chronos-Plutus (17 September 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I haven't really been following this however it looks like a dilution tantrum stemming from the acquisition of MLC. Not sure how profitable MLC is or why NAB want to offload it.
> 
> What doesn't make sense to me is why have IOOF done a massive equity dilution to raise funds to acquire MLC when the regulators haven't given approval?
> 
> ...





This whole deal looks back-the-front to me:

Do miners just start raising money to mine the ground without regulator approval? 

Do airlines just start raising money to fly their aircraft into any country without regulator approval?

Maybe IOOF comes good; but like I said, the deal doesn't make sense to me.


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## sptrawler (17 September 2020)

It has a huge smell about it, why would NAB sell, why would IOOF buy, how do you make money selling super and make enough to pay dividends and management fees. When industry funds are not paying dividends only management fees.
As a niche player, they were smart, nimble, clever and sharp.
This time, maybe that sharp they cut themselves, I would love to know the reasoning, on how they expect to outperform enough to justify the outlay on the purchase
Just my thoughts.

I don't hold


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## sptrawler (17 September 2020)

The other thing that I wonder about is, when there is a huge amount of dilution, will there be a share consolidation at a later date?
Eventually everyone gets sick of riding the horse into the ground, I have done it enough times, to just jump off when it gets weird.lol
Again just my thoughts.


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 September 2020)

Let's hope this isn't happening to IOOF:






Image is an adaptation of Gary Varvel's work (https://garyvarvel.com/)


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## Johnny1980 (21 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It has a huge smell about it, why would NAB sell, why would IOOF buy, how do you make money selling super and make enough to pay dividends and management fees. When industry funds are not paying dividends only management fees.
> As a niche player, they were smart, nimble, clever and sharp.
> This time, maybe that sharp they cut themselves, I would love to know the reasoning, on how they expect to outperform enough to justify the outlay on the purchase
> Just my thoughts.
> ...



NAB is getting out of Wealth management just like all the other banks. It’s not their core business. IOOF has obviously jumped on the opportunity even though it will stretch out its resources to the max. Time will tell if it nails the transition but the history certainly remains on its side. Also I don’t see the regulators objecting to IOOF acquiring MLC over some equity firm from US trying to make a quick buck. I’m holding and topped up at 3.10.


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## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

Johnny1980 said:


> NAB is getting out of Wealth management just like all the other banks. It’s not their core business. IOOF has obviously jumped on the opportunity even though it will stretch out its resources to the max. Time will tell if it nails the transition but the history certainly remains on its side. Also I don’t see the regulators objecting to IOOF acquiring MLC over some equity firm from US trying to make a quick buck. I’m holding and topped up at 3.10.



The regulators agreed with the takeover, the market is still to be convinced on the merits of the move.


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## wabullfrog (24 February 2021)

HY21 results seem ok

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/a...pdf?access_token=00076aItZ6EDDLvqPTvFd31zmOWo


11.5cps dividend which includes a 3.5cps special dividend. Still a long way short of what they were paying a few years ago.

Early release super $699m for HY21

MLC acquisition still expected to be completed by June 2021. Currently awaiting APRA s29


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## sptrawler (24 February 2021)

NPAT $65.9m, that would want to improve a lot, to justify a $1.4b outlay, time will tell.


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## wabullfrog (7 June 2021)

IFL completed acquisition of MLC on 31 May. Share price has finally risen above $4 but still a long way short of the $7 it was in Jan 2020.



			https://www.ioof.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/431843/2217354.pdf


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## wabullfrog (27 August 2021)

Highlights from IFL Full Year Presentation










Market reaction yesterday, the big red one.


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## divs4ever (27 August 2021)

i would like to watch longer before i  decide if invest more into this stock 

 i worry if it has over-expanded 

 i have resisted averaging down  from my $8.67  entry price 

 DYOR


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## Dona Ferentes (28 October 2021)

> “The results achieved over the quarter are in line with expectations,” said Renato Mota, chief executive of IOOF. “During a period of significant transformation, *all our businesses grew, *assisted by investment gains.”




SPIN

IOOF suffered net investor redemptions from its financial advice and funds management units in the September quarter, although increases in fund holdings helped to push up overall assets under management and administration.

There was $1.4 billion in *net outflows* during the quarter while market gains of $2 billion pushed overall funds under management to $98.3 billion.

Funds under administration edged $1.8 billion higher to $222.8 billion despite *net outflows* of $900 million as *market gains *added $3.4 billion to the overall total.


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## sptrawler (4 November 2021)

Dona Ferentes said:


> SPIN
> 
> IOOF suffered net investor redemptions from its financial advice and funds management units in the September quarter, although increases in fund holdings helped to push up overall assets under management and administration.
> 
> ...



Not a good look when a company wants to change its name after 175 years, kind of indicates how much good will they apportion to their brand IMO.

*Insignia Financial*

Financial services giant IOOF has launched its first significant rebrand in 175 years of operation and announced it will change its name to *Insignia Financial*.22 Oct 2021

DNH


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## divs4ever (10 December 2021)

Change of Company Name Following approval at the IOOF Holdings Ltd Annual General Meeting on 25 November 2021, we are pleased to announce that the change of name process with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission has now been completed and the Company’s name has been changed to Insignia Financial Ltd.
 Attached is a consolidated constitution which incorporates the amendments approved by shareholders on 25 November 2021. The ASX listing code for the Company will remain the same, IFL. -ENDS

 DYOR

 i hold IFL ( deeply in the red )

 i see name  ( and/or ticker-code ) changes as a red flag  in most circumstances 

 ( it strongly hints your brand is trashed )


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Change of Company Name Following approval at the IOOF Holdings Ltd Annual General Meeting on 25 November 2021, we are pleased to announce that the change of name process with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission has now been completed and the Company’s name has been changed to Insignia Financial Ltd.
> Attached is a consolidated constitution which incorporates the amendments approved by shareholders on 25 November 2021. The ASX listing code for the Company will remain the same, IFL. -ENDS
> 
> DYOR
> ...



Another one of my dogs, sold out when they said they were going to buy MLC off NAB.
It certainly says something when you bin the goodwill that is attached to your 200 year legacy FW's IMO.
Another one I held that did the same thing was Candle, changed the name to Clarius and strapped themselves in for the rapid slide down the pit.


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## divs4ever (10 December 2021)

i may yet  regret not doing the same 

 i probably should have suggested it for gg's Dogs of December  , but i think gg was looking  something that MIGHT have a reason to go positive 

 this is still very low priority on my top-up list  ( or average-down  which is probably more  accurate   , since i am down more than 50%  , so far )


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i may yet  regret not doing the same
> 
> i probably should have suggested it for gg's Dogs of December  , but i think gg was looking  something that MIGHT have a reason to go positive
> 
> this is still very low priority on my top-up list  ( or average-down  which is probably more  accurate   , since i am down more than 50%  , so far )



I wasn't saying they won't come good, but IMO the reason the banks got out of super was because it is difficult to compete with funds that don't pay a dividend, having to beat them on performance when you have a 4% dividend handicap will be difficult IMO.
Just my reasoning, hope you get back in the black, I lost about 30% on them from memory, bought in around $5, when they where a nimble clever operation.


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## divs4ever (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wasn't saying they won't come good, but IMO the reason the banks got out of super was because it is difficult to compete with funds that don't pay a dividend, having to beat them on performance when you have a 4% dividend handicap will be difficult IMO.
> Just my reasoning, hope you get back in the black, I lost about 30% on them from memory, bought in around $5, when they where a nimble clever operation.



 mine set me back $8.67   , but i see several coming headwinds  , one being the persistent government meddling ( by word and regulation ) in the investment/Super industry  , now several local players  have been brutally savaged  and IFL MIGHT leverage that   for a future turn-around  ,  but comparing  it to the JHG  i have bought  during the same period ( i  held some as Henderson  before that)

 i guess one might ask if the difference is management or geo-political risk  ( one is up more than 50% and the other down 50% in the same 4 years )

 now that turn-around possibility  is what has kept it on the potential top-up list   , but when do i concede those brief hints of growth  are just  attempts to buy their way out of trouble ( with certain asset sellers  staying on the hook  to cover expected adverse outcomes )

 still that investments in this industry  have been mostly a  positive outcome  ( BTT @ $2.30  turned into PDL )   even PAC  has finally got back to break-even .

  this is my 'dog' in the sector   , but the question is  is it also opportunity  winking at me  

 DYOR

(  similar to  when i backed up the truck  for those 40 cent BSL  sure they consolidated later  to give an effective buy-in price of $2.40   , or is IFL still on the long and winding road down  like OST/ARI )


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## System (13 December 2021)

On December 13th, 2021, IOOF Holdings Limited changed its name to Insignia Financial Limited.


----------

