# Not enough money in the bank account!!!



## hitmanlam (20 December 2006)

Lol.  I've got a problem.  Hoping someone could help me.  

I was doing abit of intra-day trading yesterday.  And I was planning to sell a certain share by the end of the day at 4pm.  So i would only pay/receive the net difference on my bank account.  Anyways, i didn't get the chance to sell them by 4pm.  So i had to hold them overnight.

So i just want to know what happens from here?  

Do they still take it out of my bank account and I receive a huge overdraft (over 20k) plus maybe a fine?  Or can i sell them 2morrow (which is today) and maybe the T + 3 rule applying and only receive/pay the net difference in my bank account.

Lol.  I should have never let this happen.


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## noirua (20 December 2006)

hitmanlam said:
			
		

> Lol.  I've got a problem.  Hoping someone could help me.
> 
> I was doing abit of intra-day trading yesterday.  And I was planning to sell a certain share by the end of the day at 4pm.  So i would only pay/receive the net difference on my bank account.  Anyways, i didn't get the chance to sell them by 4pm.  So i had to hold them overnight.
> 
> ...




Phone them up and ask them. It never pays to sit there and hope everything will be OK.


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## bigt (20 December 2006)

On a similar note, I have noticed that if I place an order with NAB trading, the money is removed from my account...even if the order is not placed...this can be quite annoying as orders can be cancelled etc, the money should only be removed on the settlement date...days after the trade..am I making sense?


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## nioka (20 December 2006)

bigt said:
			
		

> On a similar note, I have noticed that if I place an order with NAB trading, the money is removed from my account...even if the order is not placed...this can be quite annoying as orders can be cancelled etc, the money should only be removed on the settlement date...days after the trade..am I making sense?



One of the reasons I left NAB and went to Westpac. Try them.


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## Happy (20 December 2006)

My HSBC account has the money all the time, money are simply reserved for planned BUY transactions.


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## ctp6360 (20 December 2006)

NAB is pathetic. They take the money instantly but when you sell you don't get it for ages. And WORSE, during times when I am trading, my bank account will do things like reset to $0 even when there is meant to be hundreds of thousands, and things like that. I wouldn't doubt they have made mistakes with my balance in the past.


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## Nick Radge (20 December 2006)

hitmanlam,
Your trade will incur a "failure" fee. Is usually circa $70 or so depending on the broker.


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## noobs (20 December 2006)

Nick,

Out of curiosity does that mean that the orignal trade will actually fail? 
And if not how do they go about recouping the funds if you don't sell the next day etc. Is it based on $70 a day etc?


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## constable (20 December 2006)

noobs said:
			
		

> Nick,
> 
> Out of curiosity does that mean that the orignal trade will actually fail?
> And if not how do they go about recouping the funds if you don't sell the next day etc. Is it based on $70 a day etc?



From my experiance with westpac the trade will stand and they will try and direct debit the ac again the following day with another 80 bucks tacked on to it! If push comes to shove they would eventually resell the shares on your behalf and you would also be responsible for any shortfall on the sale. (havent been there myself !)


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## noobs (20 December 2006)

Cheers for the reply Constable and a merry xmas to whoever reads this post!


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## Prospector (20 December 2006)

As others have said, it is quite scary what Nab do with your accounts sometimes.  Like zero's in the balance, zero's in the share portfolio and so on.

I think all that would happen is that a fee would be imposed for each day payment wasnt made. But you should check - bound to be on the website somewhere


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## insider (20 December 2006)

You'll get fined $50 if you're with Comsec unless you can transfer money into the account by the end of T3... This is how it was a year ago so it might have changed since... It's cool   the bank will get some more money for nothing... I'd call the bank as well...


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## stock_man (20 December 2006)

I trade using Comsec, and actually take advantage of what you have done.

In their T+3 settlement rules, it outlines that if you purchase on day 1, then sell anything on day 2, the difference is settled on day 3.

On the odd ocassion I buy shares on day 1, hold overnight, then sell them on day 2 before the close. This allows me to use more than I would of my own money, a form of leveraging I guess. Of cause this style comes with huge risk.

I did this once on a stock that received a speeding fine, so I was forced to wait till day 3. I got the $50 fine from Comsec, and $35 for the bounce on my bank account.....


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## barney (20 December 2006)

stock_man said:
			
		

> I trade using Comsec, and actually take advantage of what you have done.
> 
> In their T+3 settlement rules, it outlines that if you purchase on day 1, then sell anything on day 2, the difference is settled on day 3.
> 
> ...




Howdy Stockman,  I know what you are saying here ...... my best/worst was three fines in a week and a half ($200 ODD DOLLARS) ........ I got a polite phone call ...... They suggested I may be terminated as a client  if it kept happening (I  said good, cause I might stop losing money!! .. and they changed their tune very quickly, case they have made literally thousands of dollars off my commissions in the last year or so)  The T+3 thing can get a bit confusing when you have multiple trades running day after day ......... Anyway it was all sorted out ...........  Cheers, Barney.


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## PureCoco (20 December 2006)

welll something interesting happened I put a bid in ede mid afternoon .41 (there were 6 of us at this price).  Up until 4pm today it was .415 so my bid and money was sitting with them - red dragon.  Having a look at 4.30pm they put through 3 lots of .41 @ 4.10 pm and the other 3 (one of which was mine) got left behind another 3 hours later the money was back in my account!  Why don't they take all the bids at .41 cents?


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## Freeballinginawetsuit (20 December 2006)

PureCoco said:
			
		

> welll something interesting happened I put a bid in ede mid afternoon .41 (there were 6 of us at this price).  Up until 4pm today it was .415 so my bid and money was sitting with them - red dragon.  Having a look at 4.30pm they put through 3 lots of .41 @ 4.10 pm and the other 3 (one of which was mine) got left behind another 3 hours later the money was back in my account!  Why don't they take all the bids at .41 cents?




As simple as no seller to fill your buy, the seller at 41 cents was filled by the buy orders higher on the 41 cents depth.


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## kransky (21 December 2006)

i'm with comsec

say i have no cash in my account..

if i BUY shares of company A on day 1 worth 10k then SELL shares of company B worth 10k on day 2 or day 3 will i get a fine or do they just take the net? (ie zero)

??

with this T+3 business then you could hypothetically buy and sell huge amounts of shares (worth much more than the cash you have) as long as you didnt hold them for longer than 2 days.. right? i know its risky but you could do it?


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## barney (21 December 2006)

kransky said:
			
		

> i'm with comsec
> 
> say i have no cash in my account..
> 
> ...




Hi Kransky,    Comsec will pro rata your sell against your buy,but you only get one days grace (not three, due to the fact that your sell order has to be cleared in three days as well ... its an on going calculation) eg. If you buy on day 1, you will have to sell by the end of day 2, but if you sell on day 1 you can buy up till the end of day 3 and the transactions will still be settled (unless of course there is a shortfall on the balance, then you will need  to top up the account)

My advice for what its worth is DONT buy more shares than you can afford to own, unless you are "certain" (and there are no certains in trading), cause sooner or later you will get burned ...........Been there done that ........ the old Trading Halt/Trading Suspension will wipe you out if you get caught holding more shares than you can afford and the SP bombs (Three letters that I will never forget  CDU ....... I'll be paying for that one for the next 5 years or so ............... Sound money management is the traders best weapon
of defence .......... Thanks to all my teachers around here.  All the best, Barney.


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## pacer (21 December 2006)

Nice one Barney.....nothing like advice from a bloke that got burned...Merry Xmas Barney, and I hope you make it all back .....with care and pitience.....


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## clowboy (21 December 2006)

kransky said:
			
		

> i'm with comsec
> 
> say i have no cash in my account..
> 
> ...




No, your limited to I think 10, 000 + a portion of your share value + cash in account for "top shares" and less for other random shares.


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## nioka (21 December 2006)

constable said:
			
		

> From my experiance with westpac the trade will stand and they will try and direct debit the ac again the following day with another 80 bucks tacked on to it! If push comes to shove they would eventually resell the shares on your behalf and you would also be responsible for any shortfall on the sale. (havent been there myself !)



Only after rhe 3 day settlement date.


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## kransky (21 December 2006)

thanks for the advice and info... never thought of the old "trading halt" problem.. 

oh and never imagined any undervalued stock i pick out would tumble


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## hitmanlam (21 December 2006)

Thanks guys for your great response.

I read the conditions today and found the answer.

T+3 rule.

We will offset payments when you buy & sell within a short time.  CommSec will transfer the net amount to or from your account when you either:

- Buy shares and then sell shares on the same day or the next trading day.
- Sell shares and then buy shares on the same day or the next two trading days.

So you can hold a share overnight and sell the next day and they will only take the difference.  However, i actually held them for two days so this rule doesn't apply.  Anyways, I finally got my act together and phoned comsec.  They said that they will put an early settlement on my sale order which would then net it off.   Anyways, the fee is $54 for the early settlement which is immaterial really when your talking about K's being overbought.

I guess you learn from your mistakes.  I would have NEVER known this rule if this didn't happen.


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## kaveman (22 December 2006)

Scares me to think of people trading with money they do not have


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