# FiftyEight Fluffs Around In Futures



## fiftyeight

Time to start my own thread as I attempt to become more organised and more focussed at the Futures game.

Initially it will just be a place for me to brain dump about brokers, data, software etc. I have a few ideas of how I want to progress but I assume this will change as I figure stuff out. So I hope this turns into a more concrete learning plan and eventually a Trading Journal. 

Currently I play around with SPI and the FTSE and use thechartist for EOD US equities. I did not think I could do any better than thechartist so I did not spend much time looking at equities. I also find EOD quite boring.

At the moment I am working a 3:1 roster but eventually I will find an equal time roster to give me more time at the screen also because my roster the posts will be a bit sporadic. 

I originally started trading futures with a sport bet winning so I really was just having some fun and was lucky enough not to blow up my account and got on a few winners. I now want to take it a bit more seriously. 
I have decided to trade the HSI mini for a few reasons, they are cheap, move around, the hours are perfect and if I am any good I may be able to transfer the skills gained directly to the HSI. I have no idea if this market will suit me but seems like as good of a place to start as any. 

My current plan is to buy Ninja Trader, find an appropriate data feed and then execute through IB. I will spend time learning NT while I try and get a feel for the MHI. I don’t want a system but I do want to learn some basic coding and improve my Excel skills so I can start testing some ideas. Very simple ideas that have been looked at before but I’d like to look at them myself.

Then I need to look at how I will organise my day, a trade plan, some rules to follow, risk management and a bunch of stuff I have not even thought of yet.

On site at the moment but I will add as time permits and I have new ponderings.


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## pavilion103

Good luck


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## tech/a

> I have decided to trade the HSI mini for a few reasons, they are cheap, move around, the hours are perfect and if I am any good I may be able to transfer the skills gained directly to the HSI. I have no idea if this market will suit me but seems like as good of a place to start as any.




Like it.

Post up some charts and trades when you can.
Whats the HSI mini Code?


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## Trembling Hand

When trading the MHI don't use that data. Its locked with the HSI and that is where the signals and movement comes from. So chart the HSI, execute on the MHI. 

But its a very good contract to learn on. Just like trading the big boy but 1/5 the dollar amount. Good idea.


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## IFocus

Good one 58 look forward to following the journey all the best Pav proved its all possible.........


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## pavilion103

Any rough goals? Or not at this stage?


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## fiftyeight

tech/a said:


> Post up some charts and trades when you can.
> Whats the HSI mini Code?




MHI, yeah I will be posting charts and trades but this is sometime away



Trembling Hand said:


> When trading the MHI don't use that data. Its locked with the HSI and that is where the signals and movement comes from. So chart the HSI, execute on the MHI.




Will keep that in mind cheers. 



pavilion103 said:


> Any rough goals? Or not at this stage?




Goals or dreams haha? 

My immediate goals are to get NT setup, find a data feed, learn NT and some basic coding. Post up what ever I find.

Dreams, quit work and trade full time For me that would require about $100k/year  

IB was easy, dump some money into an account fire up TWS and away I went. This data stuff is already doing my head in. Reading reviews about stuff I have no idea about yet, esignal might be the way to go so far


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> MHI, yeah I will be posting charts and trades but this is sometime away
> 
> 
> 
> Will keep that in mind cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> Goals or dreams haha?
> 
> My immediate goals are to get NT setup, find a data feed, learn NT and some basic coding. Post up what ever I find.
> 
> Dreams, quit work and trade full time For me that would require about $100k/year
> 
> IB was easy, dump some money into an account fire up TWS and away I went. This data stuff is already doing my head in. Reading reviews about stuff I have no idea about yet, esignal might be the way to go so far




Honestly, IB is good enough to trade the HSI or MHI. It's not ideal to match with NT, BUT if your on a budget it will do....I think Macquarie Bank has a futures broker with HKFE data....


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## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> Honestly, IB is good enough to trade the HSI or MHI. It's not ideal to match with NT, BUT if your on a budget it will do....I think Macquarie Bank has a futures broker with HKFE data....




I lived in 3 states, got married and changed career in 2015, everything is on a budget this year haha

If I can get away with using IB that would be ideal.

My wish is to be able to play a days trading after I get off work at a fast play back speed, play around with all the add ons NT has like Market Profile, and to be able to run simple historical tests similar to what TH has posted before.


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## VSntchr

fiftyeight said:


> I lived in 3 states, got married and changed career in *2015*, everything is on a budget this year haha




January has been a busy month for you my friend


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## fiftyeight

Haha typing out replys during lunch with a bunch of people talking


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## Lone Wolf

Best of luck Fiftyeight. Hope you can get your roster sorted out ok.

First time I've logged in for a while, good to see you're still pushing ahead while some of us remain broken down on the side of the road. I hope this thread reads of a succuessful journey in the months/years to come.


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## fiftyeight

Working but mainly laptop issues have made progress slower than I'd like. Considering switching to MAC but using parallels (not even sure what that is) to run NT does not excite me. Other current option is the Acer S7


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## waterbottle

fiftyeight said:


> Working but mainly laptop issues have made progress slower than I'd like. Considering switching to MAC but using parallels (not even sure what that is) to run NT does not excite me. Other current option is the Acer S7




What sort of issues? Maybe someone can help


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## fiftyeight

As in it's pretty old, spent a lot of time in and out of a back pack and is now warning me to back up everything as the hard drive is about to crash haha at least I got a warning


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## waterbottle

fiftyeight said:


> As in it's pretty old, spent a lot of time in and out of a back pack and is now warning me to back up everything as the hard drive is about to crash haha at least I got a warning




Ah. Well retailers seem to be running regular sales so it might be a good time to buy one. 
Having said that, I would think that order entry on a laptop would be difficult. I feel that a physical mouse is more responsive and easier to handle compared to a touchpad.


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## fiftyeight

waterbottle said:


> I feel that a physical mouse is more responsive and easier to handle compared to a touchpad.




Yeah I agree, I use a physical mouse when ever I can.

Current thinking is a mac air may just run NT for what I want. I will try pick one up off of gumtree, if I hate mac and want to get rid of it nothing lost. If I like mac I will upgrade to a pro at some stage in the future.

If I go the NT with IB data route, will I be able to play back the days trading with DOM by downloading the data at night or will I have to leave my laptop on and connected to the net and record the data to play back at a later stage? Apologises if I have miss used some terminology.

Not much really to post at this stage. Apart from the initial setup I am re-reading some of the threads I first read when I joined ASF. There is some awesome stuff on this forum


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## fiftyeight

Had the morning off today so had a little play around with TWS book trader on the MHI. I was watching the HSI and executing on the MHI but found the histograms did not match in shape or where specific prices where traded. 

I had it set for 5 point stop loss and 10 point target.  Got my stop to BE a couple of times and let 1 run a little. But I was chopped up by commission and hit my session limit.

Ill get back to playing with NT.


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## kid hustlr

turn the P+L column off i reckon


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## CanOz

Fifty-eight, why would the two histograms match? They are two different instruments....??


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## fiftyeight

kid hustlr said:


> turn the P+L column off i reckon




Yeah I will give that a go next time. That pic was more to show how much commish drag there is 



CanOz said:


> Fifty-eight, why would the two histograms match? They are two different instruments....??




Yeh did not expect them to match but thought similar. As the day has progressed the overall shape is much more similar. This is no help though as the shape is developing earlier in the day and trying to trade off it. Still this afternoon there are differences.

Say for example I wanted to trade off of 24780 on the HSI on the right, do I take the trade on the MHI and not worry about the difference as the HSI will move the MHI or wait for it to unfold on the MHI?  

TH mentioned to have the HSI up but trade the MHI as the HSI leads the MHI, I may have misunderstood.


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## fiftyeight

Watching the HSI today and kept seeing this 50 lot bid pop up. Always seemingly getting pulled before it was filled. This went on for 5 - 10 mins.

Only theory I can come up with is someone selling to punters trying to front run it. Seems like a good place for a short but are they that obvious??? Lets see how the day pans out?

Any other suggestion on what might be going on?

Apart from that I have recognised no faces, not sure I am even looking at people


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## fiftyeight

It was happening in this area


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## ThingyMajiggy

If it was just flashing up and disappearing again(ie. fake) then yeah it's probably someone/an algo actually getting short on the other side, selling into people/algos who are seeing that are thinking the market is "strong".


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## CanOz

That sounds to me like a classic spoof 'em up to sell higher. The market participant scares the market up, all the while selling more at a better price. Used to see this almost daily on the Dax if it was a rotational type day....Good work Fifty-eight!


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Yeah I will give that a go next time. That pic was more to show how much commish drag there is
> 
> 
> 
> Yeh did not expect them to match but thought similar. As the day has progressed the overall shape is much more similar. This is no help though as the shape is developing earlier in the day and trying to trade off it. Still this afternoon there are differences.
> 
> Say for example I wanted to trade off of 24780 on the HSI on the right, do I take the trade on the MHI and not worry about the difference as the HSI will move the MHI or wait for it to unfold on the MHI?
> 
> TH mentioned to have the HSI up but trade the MHI as the HSI leads the MHI, I may have misunderstood.




Yeah, the MHI is being led around by the HSI, so use the latter for information and the former for execution.


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## fiftyeight

Haha what a waste of a morning figuring out how to export out of NT. Got there eventually but damn I am an id!ot


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## fiftyeight

Bit of consolidation on the days lows and previous S/R 

Which way will we go? Looking at the daily I'll guess bounce off the resistance and into the previous range


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## fiftyeight

I am awesome at this game

Enquire within for assistance in what not to do


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## fiftyeight

Watching both BookTrader and NT DOM today.

Booktrader and NT seem to show orders going through at market 1 or 2 lots most of the time and then on NT you will see something larger like 10 or 20 go through

Booktrader never (at best rarely)  shows these larger orders going through, any ideas on what is actually happening will be greatly appreciated?


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## fiftyeight

Was not at my comp the entire day today, but here are a few charts looking back at the action.

I am still not confident looking back at charts that I have it correct, so still a LOT of screen time before I can do it in real time..... and accurately haha


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## tech/a

*Don't say I don't give you something for nothing.*

Now its up to you to best implement it!
Just got the big move on the DAX 1 hr 40 ticks.




This is the foundation of our trading methodology (Kris and I)
There is a lot more but that's all I'm giving out.
*No Its not for sale.*

But start here and keep refining Your IMPLEMENTATION--its well worth the effort!
All time frames and all Index futures we have looked at so far.
5 of them.---including HSI.

*REALLY HIGH VOLUME!*


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## fiftyeight

Haha you have given me plenty for nothing 

You make it look so easy, but as you have said many times before it is all about the practical application.

I have mentioned this before but its something I am still pondering. When looking at volume I dont think it is just a case of oooooooo high volume its going to reverse.  

Is it high relative to the past few bars, volume through out the day, volume at similar times of the day over the past few days, volume in similar sitiuations or as I suspect a combination of all. 

All part of screen time and gaining an understanding/feel for when something looks out of place


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## fiftyeight

Thinking about this again this morning, who was buying if the longs were covering


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## Sakk

tech/a said:


> *Don't say I don't give you something for nothing.*
> 
> Now its up to you to best implement it!
> Just got the big move on the DAX 1 hr 40 ticks.
> 
> View attachment 61879
> 
> 
> This is the foundation of our trading methodology (Kris and I)
> There is a lot more but that's all I'm giving out.
> *No Its not for sale.*
> 
> But start here and keep refining Your IMPLEMENTATION--its well worth the effort!
> All time frames and all Index futures we have looked at so far.
> 5 of them.---including HSI.
> 
> *REALLY HIGH VOLUME!*





tech 

I also use high vol bars for both set up and closing positions or partial close.

I use the 1min chart for viewing high vol bars then a 2 Range chart for entries.

You dont automatically short or go long on high vol bars BUT you can use them as set ups/warnings to look for reversals or close out a potion or partials.  As tech said create your method around this info.  

See attached chart, the entries are at the lime green levels but off a tick chart.  Todays action was clean and i'm done for the day.  I made several other trades within that price action but based around other setups which have taken me years to refine but they are just as simple.

I'm still new to trading the HSI (trading the MHI atm though) and am testing my approach to see if its valid as i've come from FX trading.  

Here's the chart, hope it helps.


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## fiftyeight

Mornings efforts.

Tried to focus on volume and and the levels I had marked up this morning. Also had the DOM open which kept me out of a few spots when I seen a large order not getting pulled out of the way as soon as it went bid or ask. 

Still over trading with some absolutely terrible entries but not too fussed about that yet as I am still looking for my set/ups, patterns and faces. Once I have some idea ill try and get more selective.

Today I was taking 2 lots with a 10 point stop on both and then a 20 and 40 point profit target. As I have a bad habit of letting winners come all the way back on me my rule is to never push the 20 point out but I can bring it in if I feel the need. 

The 40 point target is a bit more flexible but if I start pushing it out I tighten the stop to prevent giving back to much. This still needs a bit more pondering at experimentation.

The stop loss and profit targets are not based on any testing, I just needed to start somewhere


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## tech/a

One equity curve for short trades only on one method we are currently playing with.
The base is as I have pointed out.


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## fiftyeight

tech/a said:


> One equity curve for short trades only on one method we are currently playing with.
> The base is as I have pointed out.
> 
> 
> View attachment 61894




Your playing around looks a lot more impressive than mine haha

Base as in the red line of the max draw down or base as in it is a short method based on volume spikes as we were  discussing before


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## fiftyeight

Sakk said:


> I'm still new to trading the HSI (trading the MHI atm though) and am testing my approach to see if its valid as i've come from FX trading.
> 
> Here's the chart, hope it helps.




Thanks for the chart Sakk, nice to have someone in the same market. You seem a bit further along than me,  why the swap to the HSI.

I did spot those set ups as well, just executed poorly compared to yours


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## Sakk

fiftyeight said:


> Thanks for the chart Sakk, nice to have someone in the same market. You seem a bit further along than me,  why the swap to the HSI.
> 
> I did spot those set ups as well, just executed poorly compared to yours




A lot more points on offer in a much shorter time


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## fiftyeight

I just seen this one pop in the DOM on rising volume and around some resistance from yesterday and overnight.

The order at 95 didnt seem to budging and then a couple of orders stacked in front of it which also did not seem to budging. Price seem to respect these orders and got a little pop. I bought at 104. Once the price moved up there was no support behind so I closed both trades out for 17 points profit. It then dropped back down.

No idea if they were real bids but the story seem to be strong enough to buy, but with a lack of volume coming in and in a falling market I was looking for the exit door pretty quick.

With a sample size of 1 who knows if it will work again


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## Wysiwyg

fiftyeight said:


> With a sample size of 1 who knows if it will work again



 With 1440 minutes in a day, this observation could be very random.


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## fiftyeight

Wysiwyg said:


> With 1440 minutes in a day, this observation could be very random.




That was my point????


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## fiftyeight

How my day finished

Much quieter afternoon

Many things to look at over the weekend if I get time

I should probably make a rule that I will post if I am trading in the morning so I dont cherry pick winning days


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## Wysiwyg

fiftyeight said:


> That was my point????



That was my affirmation!


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## fiftyeight

I am not too sure of the logic here at all and need to further investigate just having a play around with stuff...

I was playing around with Excel this afternoon and graphed Volume vs Range

If you had a day with huge volume in the morning session but with a tiny range (not even sure these days exist) then the afternoon is likely to trend so to increase the range.

And if there was a large range on tiny volume and no volume is coming in the afternoon session then it is likely to revert back towards the open.


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## DeepState

fiftyeight said:


> I am not too sure of the logic here at all...




Here is analysis for S&P which shows the same relation.  It is for daily data on the front month futures contract for the last 10 years. Please note that spread is divided by closing price to standardize for proportional movement.  A 100 point spread when the market is at 1,000 is different to a 100 point spread when the market is at 10,000.

The scatter shows there is a positive relationship as per your chart.  The table provided basically says 'this relationship is probably not by luck'. I won't adjust for all the formal stuff, because the point will still stand. You will find this relationship to be near universal for market aggregates.

The implications are not what you are espousing.

What is happening is that, when people trade, they do so partly because they need to change exposure due to portfolio level movements, but mostly because they disagree with each other.  Volume is a proxy for disagreement.  

Spread tends to be wide when there is uncertainty.  In high uncertainty, people have all sorts of opinions and, when they conflict, they trade.

The reason why the relationship is not even stronger is that there are times when volume is low and yet spread is large.  This occurs when something hit the market and it re-assessed the valuation.  Yet, largely, the market participants agreed about the impact.  You can form the obverse argument for low spread and high volume.

The relationship between spread and volume is not likely to lead you in a direction that is money making from the perspective of directionally sourced position taking.


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## fiftyeight

Awesome post DS greatly appreciated

A few gems to keep my mind busy this weekend, I am sure ill have a few more questions later.

I love the detailed and well thought out content you often find on ASF, then I realise that I am competing with the same people


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## fiftyeight

On sim this morning, lets how I go after a rather large weekend


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## fiftyeight

Could not get focused this morning, too early on some too late on others. Barely watching the DOM. After commish I am about flat. Time to call it quits for the morning


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## fiftyeight

I will have another crack this afternoon and hopefully spot a few setups to post


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## fiftyeight

Pretty much a repeat of this morning efforts. Missed a few and then chased it resulting in less than ideal entries


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## fiftyeight

DeepState said:


> What is happening is that, when people trade, they do so partly because they need to change exposure due to portfolio level movements, but mostly because they disagree with each other.  *Volume is a proxy for disagreement.*
> 
> Spread tends to be wide when there is uncertainty.  In high uncertainty, people have all sorts of opinions and, when they conflict, they trade.




I have thought about this post over the last few days and the section I have quoted. As I am at the very early stages of understanding the markets, this will make a great starting point when I am attempting to make sense of a situation.


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## tech/a

> Volume is a proxy for disagreement.




So who wins who loses and what tells you this?


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## tech/a

And this


.


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## Nortorious

tech/a said:


> And this
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 61924




The first three I would say the sellers are winning based on the fact volume has come in and is making lower highs. The fact the bar closed on the lower half is a bit of a clue as well. 

Probabilities favour those prices on the respective charts heading downwards (at least in the short term, hard to say how long for without any background context).

The fourth chart, is heading upwards. Based on how I would trade this, each time it made a step up, volume expanded which indicates to me demand is pushing it higher. Not much volume whilst it is going sideways or on down bars. Again play the probabilities and the fourth chart would be heading higher.

Things can change on a dime though, so always have a stop loss in place and trail it....


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## DeepState

tech/a said:


> So who wins who loses and what tells you this?




Some win, some lose. I don't have their names - for the most part. Disagreement simply states they have differing views.  It says nothing about who is more correct.  If they trade amongst themselves for reasons outside portfolio rebalancing activity (which is small relative to total volume), but don't disagree, they must really like feeding their broker for some reason, including for reasons like getting some thrill/dopamine-hit just for placing a trade (which is a real world phenomenon...as should be amply apparent).  The relationship isn't 1-to-1.  There is a relationship nonetheless. 

There are research pieces into this if you need a door stopper for the weight-test.  One of your contacts should be able to get hold of it easily enough.

Here's another example.  Much simpler. When ASF threads are full of agreement, volume drops.  When there is disagreement, like, say, on religion/politics....you get volume.  Pretty straight-forward.


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## fiftyeight

Lets see how this goes haha

Looking at the area I highlighted, to me it looks like no real supply came in near the days highs but also a lack of demand from the bull to push it any higher. Sold back down to the lows, where the bull have stepped back in. I would be going long 



Second picture the bar you have highlighted finishes on its lows, not convinced either way on this one and would let it play out a few more bars

The pull backs were all supported. The high seen no  excessive supply come in and then we have a ultra high volume bar closing in the middle of the bar. I would have a crack at going long but cautious of so much supply suddenly entering


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## fiftyeight

DeepState said:


> The relationship isn't 1-to-1.  There is a relationship nonetheless.




Which relationship are you referring to here sorry?


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## DeepState

fiftyeight said:


> Which relationship are you referring to here sorry?




Between measures of uncertainty/disagreement and volume.  For example, your chart showed volume correlated meaningfully with intra-day spread (a proxy for uncertainty). 

There is much else that goes on, but the relationship is super-clear from a statistical viewpoint and also evident to people who trade against each other for a living.  Without disagreement, there is no market or price discovery in uncertainty.


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## fiftyeight

Having a flutter this morning


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## fiftyeight

Thats it I am out here


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## tech/a

fiftyeight said:


> Thats it I am out here
> 
> View attachment 61929




16 straight losses
You getting stopped or are you just wrong from the get go?

Are you trading with or against the prevailing trend?
Are you trying to pick reversals?

There has to be a reason for such a spectacular run of losses.
What is it?

Do you feel like your guessing?


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## fiftyeight

Its 8 straight losing trades as I am buying 2 lots at a time.

I used to (apparently still do) have a bad habit of trying to pick bottoms. Not really sure why but fell back into old habits and kept trying to buy the whole way down any time I seen something resembling strength (clearly I was wrong)

I am cr@p a picking bottoms which is why I have been attempting to buy and sell pull backs within the prevailing trend...... today not so much.

But yeah I think I was just guessing this morning


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## tech/a

fiftyeight said:


> Its 8 straight losing trades as I am buying 2 lots at a time.
> 
> I used to (apparently still do) have a bad habit of trying to pick bottoms. Not really sure why but fell back into old habits and kept trying to buy the whole way down any time I seen something resembling strength (clearly I was wrong)
> 
> I am cr@p a picking bottoms which is why I have been attempting to buy and sell pull backs within the prevailing trend...... today not so much.
> 
> But yeah I think I was just guessing this morning




OK next time try one thing.
Identifying setups that are telling you the trend is continuing.
If there is no trend apparent look for indications of what's happening within the consolidation.
Are the big boys buying or selling. Where is the EFFORT?


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## fiftyeight

Went and chased a white ball around the bush yesterday and late to the comp this morning. Some good help on my thread and private message that I will read through digest later today.

But for now back at it


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## fiftyeight

Dug my self a hole again

Some less than ideal entries again but this time also 2 fat finger trades and profit target missed by a point or 2. Will stick at it this morning and see if I can get back to BE


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## darkhorse70

Dont beat yourself up. its going to take hundreds if not thousands of runs before you 
See any sort of consistancy imo.
.
Just try to look at what you did and didnt do well and try to not do it again next run.


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## fiftyeight

No salvaging done just more digging, might change my name from 58 to the "The Shovel"

Cheers DH, not concerned yet. No even close to where I expect consistent results

I am going for a run and will come back this arvo for some revision and go over a few ideas ppl have suggested


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## CanOz

A podcast on using a VWAP in your trading...this is an equity trader.

Inbox is full fiftyeight...


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## fiftyeight

Just listened

WOW that guy can freakin talk and talk and talk


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## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Just listened
> 
> WOW that guy can freakin talk and talk and talk




Yeah, too right he can. I had to push myself a little bit to get through it all. Nothing new, but not often that you can hear the vwap spoken about...

CanOz


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## fiftyeight

So I spent most of the last couple of days doing inductions for my return to work next week. 

Would of been nice to finish on a high so I spent the next few weeks on site under the illusion that I can make it as a trader but reality may push me to study harder.

Ill muck around this morning downloading a few weeks of data so I if I get a chance (doubtful) I can sim.

Also after doing a little bit of research on VWAP a lot of people seem to use it. I am not convinced yet as it closely approximates a SMA and that did not help me at all last week. But the SMA was on my chart, was I using it? Not really. So I am going to hunt around for some stuff on VWAP to watch and read while am away.


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## DaveDaGr8

Hey FiftyEight,

Just out of curiosity, are you just simming or are you playing with real money ? and how long have you been playing the futures game ?

I only ask because i have been looking at diversifying into futures over the last few weeks. I have read almost half of Pav's thread ( what an eye opener that is ) and anything and everything i can find.

Pav seems to have made his mark in 2 years, so i was eager to follow your road as well. 

cheers,


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## fiftyeight

Real money for US equities

And after getting a bit lucky on the FTSE last year I have taken a step back and only sim. Every now and then I will donate a small amount of money on the MHI.

I probably started looking at futures at the same time as PAV but due to various reasons never really committed to it as much as PAV. I consider that I have only really started fluffing around in futures when I started this thread.


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## fiftyeight

Last post was over a month ago.

I have not given up yet, but my plan kind of fell apart. 

Scored a gig with an 8:6 roster . Had to complete some additional training while back at home so no screen time or any trading study at all really. I have finished this lot of training so all ready to get back in to it. 

Now we get a roster change to 2:1 

I think this pretty much rules out what I was trying to do on the HSI, after I have a break and catch up on stuff I will be lucky to get 3 days at the screen every 3 weeks.

Depending on how the roster is set up, I think I will be able to watch the first 90 mins of the FTSE open about half the time. So I might try figure out something around that.

I do want keep fluffing around with futures just need some freakin consistency. If I find time to make something work I will keep my thread alive 

Or I will lose my job and have all the time I need to stare at a screen


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## fiftyeight

FTSE 100 Index: Initial $4,500.00 Day Trading Margin $1,500.00

So how does margin actually work, I have had enough in IB to do what I wanted but looking at AMP again.

Is that in Pounds or $US

Is it $4,500 per contract or $1,500 per contract?

Should probably know this already but I was only ever trading a small % of capital so I never looked


----------



## fiftyeight

About to finish "Reminiscence Of A Stock Operator".

I really enjoyed it, recommendations of something similar but maybe more recent?


----------



## barney

fiftyeight said:


> About to finish "Reminiscence Of A Stock Operator".
> 
> I really enjoyed it, recommendations of something similar but maybe more recent?




In my humble opinion, as far as learning in a real world situation, you can't really do much better than read the below two threads in their entirety ........  Simply some of the most poignant and eye opening stuff ASF has to offer 

Young Ivant turned a few thousand dollars into almost half a million before being blind sided by his belief in where the market was heading.  

Some of the commentary etc on the threads is worth its weight in gold, and every bit as valuable as Reminiscence of a Stock Operator 

The Input from some of the "old ASF brigade"  ie. MRC and Co.  Nun the Wiser, Cartman, SKC and Trembling Hand to name a few is invaluable.  I never get tired of mulling over both the threads, and always seem to pick up a bit more valuable info every time I do!

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=14967&highlight=trading+strategy+blows+goats


https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15319


----------



## banco

fiftyeight said:


> About to finish "Reminiscence Of A Stock Operator".
> 
> I really enjoyed it, recommendations of something similar but maybe more recent?




Pitbull by Marty Schwartz is very good.


----------



## fiftyeight

Cheers

2 threads I have skimmed over before but will have another look. I have been re-reading threads lately and I am getting a lot more out them on the second read so they will be next on my list.

I have learnt so much from this site, it is a fantastic forum!!!!!!

Ill add Pitbull to my list as well, looks like something I will be able to read late at night or while travelling


----------



## fiftyeight

barney said:


> Young Ivant turned a few thousand dollars into almost half a million before being blind sided by his belief in where the market was heading.




Finished those 2 threads again. Ivant was an interesting character indeed. Some good advise in the threads.

Before reading the thread, I was pondering something similar. Starting with a tiny bankroll with IG setting a target and then aggressively trading until I reach it, if I reach it. It is how I have built a few poker bankrolls and sports betting accounts. It is how I got my initial money that I started playing with futures. Trick is to know when to cash out.

But I am yet to find an edge or system or something I want to have a crack with yet.


----------



## fiftyeight

With a sample size of 1 week, trading volume spikes was a success haha. My IG account went from $990 to $2300 so this weeks target is $5800 : To be honest I just got lucky fading a couple of the highs and lows. No idea how I will go on the open as I was only able to watch the markets from about 17.30 to 20.00 wst. Home this week so will hopefully catch a few opens.

Looking for something really specific gave me some structure and reduced my trade frequency which has always been way to high. So for now it is something for me to focus on my week home while fluffing around on replay


----------



## fiftyeight

AHHHHH

I hate CFDs. Someone want to spot me $10k so I can play with reals?


----------



## Trembling Hand

fiftyeight said:


> AHHHHH
> 
> I hate CFDs. Someone want to spot me $10k so I can play with reals?




Just what you need from $2 a tick to $25 Euro per tick!


----------



## avion

fiftyeight said:


> AHHHHH
> 
> I hate CFDs. Someone want to spot me $10k so I can play with reals?




AMP futures only need 2.5k margin. I recommend more


----------



## fiftyeight

Trembling Hand said:


> Just what you need from $2 a tick to $25 Euro per tick!





Hence why I would rather someone else fund my bankroll


----------



## fiftyeight

avion said:


> AMP futures only need 2.5k margin. I recommend more




Haha I need much more than $2.5k if I want to play for more than 1 night


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Haha I need much more than $2.5k if I want to play for more than 1 night




You don't have to trade the nut case Dax, trade the FESX. It will teach you to read the depth better, you have more time to make decisions, its 95% correlated to the DAX, margin is only 500 eur.


----------



## fiftyeight

I love that it is a nut case 

Just because I love it does not mean I am any good at it, will have a look at the FESX tonight


----------



## tech/a

fiftyeight said:


> I love that it is a nut case
> 
> Just because I love it does not mean I am any good at it, will have a look at the FESX tonight




DAX is fine
Its just those that trade it!

You know the best thing about it-----

When it *clearly* shows its intentions it generally runs 50 ticks + 
with time to jump on.
You can see depth being munched


----------



## fiftyeight

tech/a said:


> You can see depth being munched




 Are you watching the DOM?


----------



## fiftyeight

Stumbled across this while day dreaming, I wonder if these plates belong to any one on ASF 

Do me mates rates, I have


----------



## fiftyeight

I have read over and over that many newbs have issues with letting profits run. I have the opposite and tend to let them come way too far back.

Multiple contracts or CFDs help this issue, but where to place my limit order?

DS has argued on another thread and I have since checked for my self a stop or limit will in it self will not increase profitability but I feel it will help in this situation as it is solving an operator error not so much a system error....if that makes sense.

This coupled with the randomness of the market and I am already in the trade and have paid brokerage, would it be better for me to use a really tight stop at a predefined level rather than a limit. It may come back against me or it may take off but I have paid the brokerage so why not have a look?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> I have read over and over that many newbs have issues with letting profits run. I have the opposite and tend to let them come way too far back.
> 
> Multiple contracts or CFDs help this issue, but where to place my limit order?
> 
> DS has argued on another thread and I have since checked for my self a stop or limit will in it self will not increase profitability but I feel it will help in this situation as it is solving an operator error not so much a system error....if that makes sense.
> 
> This coupled with the randomness of the market and I am already in the trade and have paid brokerage, would it be better for me to use a really tight stop at a predefined level rather than a limit. It may come back against me or it may take off but I have paid the brokerage so why not have a look?




I think it depends to a degree what you're trading. Fast markets and you'll be just looking for a fill. Sometimes I'll use limits and sometimes stop orders. That's the great thing about using a DOM, its fast. If i can get in on a limit on some kind of pull back then i might try. I may just use a stop order just inside a level that i'm 90% sure will break...I may just want a fill and not care too much about the entry, it just a matter of getting in because i have a belief that the reward will be worth that extra risk. If the market drops 10 points in a matter of seconds to an area that i consider worth participating and shorts cover quickly before 'bam' sellers once again hit the bids, i just want to get short.

If on the other hand you're trading thicker markets, you'll likely be more concerned about que position and using limits. If you have to chase then you'll pay, which is not good on thick markets like the FESX that may only run 3 or 4 ticks and then turn back on you.

Thats my only view on stops versus limit orders....


----------



## fiftyeight

My DOM skills are crap would probably cost me more trying to squeeze out a few extra points.

I was more thinking, say even for a EOD system using a trailing stop if you as usual, then when it come time to take profit instead of simply selling at market or letting a profit limit being taken out jam a stop in real tight. May get taken out may take off again?


----------



## fiftyeight

I have an unsubstantiated overwhelming desire to be short today..... probably should look for for longs


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> I have an unsubstantiated overwhelming desire to be short today..... probably should look for for longs




I do too, but then the 6J and the 6E just sold off like crazy....the ES has got a flattop where there looks to have been a held offer...


----------



## fiftyeight

Trigger finger is sooo itchy, still waiting for :vader:

:vader: is a "fader" setup I am trying to work on, pretty much just a huge relative volume spike


----------



## CanOz

Well i wasn't going to trade, but my momentum play showed and i stole 10 points, off to the pub, a good weeks in the books.


----------



## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> Well i wasn't going to trade, but my momentum play showed and i stole 10 points, off to the pub, a good weeks in the books.




Good work, free night at the pub.

I wont be on much longer either but 2 positives from this arvo, I did not lose any $$$ (defiantly missed some though) and I spotted something to put on the investigate list


----------



## fiftyeight

Something I have been thinking about lately is how to better/earlier identify a breakout, failed breakout and a stop run


----------



## History Repeats

fiftyeight said:


> Something I have been thinking about lately is how to better/earlier identify a breakout, failed breakout and a stop run




I thought you were reading VSA and Wyckoff books, i reckon people should reread few time at least. Also search through and learn Tech/a's post. 

As for your question this might be a bit of help.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22010

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20906


----------



## fiftyeight

History Repeats said:


> I thought you were reading VSA and Wyckoff books, i reckon people should reread few time at least. Also search through and learn Tech/a's post.
> 
> As for your question this might be a bit of help.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22010
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20906





I have read them but you are correct, maybe worth a re read now I have stared at a screen for a few more hours


----------



## fiftyeight

So many more orders sitting in the DOM on the FDXM compared to the FDAX but volume is much greater on the DAX.

Are the orders sitting on the books on the FDXM to kind of lock the price to the FDAX and stop someone from sweeping the book of the FDXM?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> So many more orders sitting in the DOM on the FDXM compared to the FDAX but volume is much greater on the DAX.
> 
> Are the orders sitting on the books on the FDXM to kind of lock the price to the FDAX and stop someone from sweeping the book of the FDXM?




Market maker....


----------



## fiftyeight

Market Maker setting orders to stop a sweep and to essentially lock the price to the DAX?

Please tell me I got something correct on my first guess for a change ?


----------



## fiftyeight

Back on site, so what better way to spend a Sat night. Purchase Jigsaw and try and figure out how to fit everything onto a 22inch screen. 

This may take a few attempts


----------



## CanOz

Yeah, that's my main beef with jigsaw, takes too much valuable screenestate. I'd rather have more doms than charts...if I had to choose, just sayin....not popular with the "price action" crowd...


----------



## fiftyeight

Does anyone have some resources on order flow on thin markets?

There is plenty of "stuff" out there on order flow but not much on thin markets like the DAX and HSI


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Does anyone have some resources on order flow on thin markets?
> 
> There is plenty of "stuff" out there on order flow but not much on thin markets like the DAX and HSI




The best way to learn is to do Petes excercises. Use only the Dom for a few weeks. You don't see as much stuff going on as there used to be, but still see some stuffing of the book, spoofing, icebergs etc....the main thing is to get familiar with execution. Try setting up some pre programmed stops etc...can be handy. Enjoy!


----------



## fiftyeight

Still working through his stuff. I am just finding some of it not applicable to thin markets, or maybe bad tradesman blames his tools..... that reminds me I need new golf clubs.

Lesson one for example, focusing on orders executed, the DAX moves so fast it often re-prints over old levels before I have time to read it let alone figure out what is going on.

I will complete the stuff on jiggy and hope something clicks soon.

Note, this is not a reflection on Jiggy, I am really enjoying it. It just would be nice to see more thin market specific educational material


----------



## fiftyeight

PS

Short 105*58* at $5 a point 

Just seems like an ideal place to be short :1zhelp:


----------



## fiftyeight

This is where I struggle (time of writing I am short at 10558 and market is 10522

Apparently newbs let loseres run and cut profits. I am the opposite, ill cut the **** out of something that moves against me but I LOVE to hold winners.......allllllll the way back to BE

My stop is now at BE, lets see what happens tonight ........


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> This is where I struggle (time of writing I am short at 10558 and market is 10522
> 
> Apparently newbs let loseres run and cut profits. I am the opposite, ill cut the **** out of something that moves against me but I LOVE to hold winners.......allllllll the way back to BE
> 
> My stop is now at BE, lets see what happens tonight ........




Lol...that was me, I was the same!


----------



## fiftyeight

58

Told you 58 rules allll


----------



## fiftyeight

I don't love being taken out at BE but I had a plan. I wanted to get short at what I perceived a high and then let it play out. If something unexpected happened I was printing $$$. It was a very small portion of my funds.

Plus if I picked a top I would look a ASF master!!!  :


----------



## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> Lol...that was me, I was the same!




I am getting better with this. Instead of changing how I work I am trying to scale in and scale out.


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> I am getting better with this. Instead of changing how I work I am trying to scale in and scale out.




Yeah exactly, trading with 1 contract is the big issue. I like to go all in scale out on my bread and butter plays, then working on scaling in scaling out on rotational fade days....


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> Yeah exactly, trading with 1 contract is the big issue. I like to go all in scale out on my bread and butter plays, then working on scaling in scaling out on rotational fade days....




Just curious Can, how many bread and butter setups do you have? And what makes them "Bread & butter"? Do they occur every day or just ones that you know the best or have the most success with?


----------



## CanOz

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Just curious Can, how many bread and butter setups do you have? And what makes them "Bread & butter"? Do they occur every day or just ones that you know the best or have the most success with?




On trend days i have a couple of ways to get into a trade that suits my risk tolerance. On rotational days they still show up, but just not as frequent as they need the follow through order flow or they just don't _follow through_...They're bread and butter to me because for some reason they work for me, more than they fail.

TH inspired me to look for ways to trade rotational days and I've got a good play I'm practicing now, but I've not traded it live yet. I'm reluctant to call them plays or setups because its just a way to get involved.


----------



## fiftyeight

Really need to flip faster.

I am much better now at not letting my bias get me in to toooooooo much trouble. But while I am waiting paitiently for a retest or something I am missing the next move waaaay too often.

Also Can, is this what you are talking about when you say its a will bid market, lots of orders going through on the offer


----------



## CanOz

Well to me a well bid market is thick on the bids as the offers keep getting swept...like shorts tripping over themselves to hit the exits....

What's that data feed? Eurex has 20 levels of depth for punters. You can change your setup in jiggy to show all 20.


----------



## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> Well to me a well bid market is thick on the bids as the offers keep getting swept...like shorts tripping over themselves to hit the exits....
> 
> What's that data feed? Eurex has 20 levels of depth for punters. You can change your setup in jiggy to show all 20.




CQG, will have a play around with it over the xmas break. I have been paying less attention to the depth recently and more attention to what has actually traded, possibly because its a fancy new piece of information I have not had before. Last night while I was having a brain explosion the offer seemed thicker but it kept on grinding higher.

Really enjoying jiggy, starting like to see little things happen. Cannot trade off of them yet but something is maybe, kinda, sort of starting to appear


----------



## fiftyeight

To my brain explosion. Very disappointing night last night :bad:, blew through my daily stop and dropped a few $K. 

Did many many things wrong. To list a few, blew through my daily stop, had a target in my head that I wanted to achieve pre xmas, had NT troubles but didnt wait until I got them fixed before trading, was not patient...........

Things I learnt, daily stops are easy to obey when they are not tested (had a pretty good run recently). I got close to my daily stop before NT decided to cooperate then blasted through it and barely gave it a thought. Then the frustration came in to play and the mistakes kept on coming. The daily stop is in place to stop the brain explosion.

What I found incredibly frustrating last night was that my bias was correct but I just couldnt get it right. A few initial stops taken out by a tick or 2, a few BE taken out by a tick or 2 and then moving my SL up to lock in some tiny insignificant profit to have it taken out on a pullback by a tick or 2. My bias is wrong so often I do not get frustrated by it but I found last night very frustrating last night.

I think there was a common theme last night of frustration leading to mistakes which lead to more frustration which caused more mistakes.

I would like to blame the initial NT issue for it but I should of just stuck to my daily stop.

May need to review my daily routine, currently getting up at 3 to hit the gym, review the previous nights trade and a bit of study, work 11+ hours, race back to my room, log on to NT by 5.20ish while still wearing my work gear, try fit in shower and dinner, call wife and bed by 10ish. 

Maybe I can blame "Decision Fatigue" for last nights brain explosion (article is worth a read if you have not come across it before)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-from-decision-fatigue.html?_r=0

Well, a few days to stew over it during xmas. Not sure what is worse, having so long to think about it or being on site over xmas haha

I hope everyone has a fantastic Xmas and New Year :xmaswave


----------



## prophesa

fiftyeight said:


> To my brain explosion. Very disappointing night last night :bad:, blew through my daily stop and dropped a few $K.
> 
> Did many many things wrong. To list a few, blew through my daily stop, had a target in my head that I wanted to achieve pre xmas, had NT troubles but didnt wait until I got them fixed before trading, was not patient...........
> 
> Things I learnt, daily stops are easy to obey when they are not tested (had a pretty good run recently). I got close to my daily stop before NT decided to cooperate then blasted through it and barely gave it a thought. Then the frustration came in to play and the mistakes kept on coming. The daily stop is in place to stop the brain explosion.
> 
> What I found incredibly frustrating last night was that my bias was correct but I just couldnt get it right. A few initial stops taken out by a tick or 2, a few BE taken out by a tick or 2 and then moving my SL up to lock in some tiny insignificant profit to have it taken out on a pullback by a tick or 2. My bias is wrong so often I do not get frustrated by it but I found last night very frustrating last night.
> 
> I think there was a common theme last night of frustration leading to mistakes which lead to more frustration which caused more mistakes.
> 
> I would like to blame the initial NT issue for it but I should of just stuck to my daily stop.
> 
> May need to review my daily routine, currently getting up at 3 to hit the gym, review the previous nights trade and a bit of study, work 11+ hours, race back to my room, log on to NT by 5.20ish while still wearing my work gear, try fit in shower and dinner, call wife and bed by 10ish.
> 
> Maybe I can blame "Decision Fatigue" for last nights brain explosion (article is worth a read if you have not come across it before)
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-from-decision-fatigue.html?_r=0
> 
> Well, a few days to stew over it during xmas. Not sure what is worse, having so long to think about it or being on site over xmas haha
> 
> I hope everyone has a fantastic Xmas and New Year :xmaswave





You have a pretty hectic routine there. We all make mistakes in trading but I think it's positive that you are able to recognise the issue so now you can work on it. Good luck with it and I hope you become a better trader learning from these mistakes.


----------



## CanOz

58, I can totally relate to the daily stop thing. A couple of scenarios I had recently: One day I hit my daily stop, back in October or November. At that stage I didn't have my planning Checklist. After that daily stop, where I actually exceeded my DS by over 2x, I put together the planning document. 

The next time I stopped trading for the day was just short of my daily stop, not sure exactly why, but I took a shot on a day that didn't play to my strengths and I lost. Something about being better prepared enabled me to get over the FOMO, pack up and call it a night....because I knew on a day that suited my style, I'd get it back and more. This might not help, but it helped me be a little more disciplined with my daily risk.

That's a crazy schedule, agree.

Not sure I'd be trading a live account in that situation.


----------



## fiftyeight

So after a long break over xmas its time to get back to it. Schedule remains roughly the same as about, not ideal but all good. My only change will be to place less pressure on trading every night.

So I finally went to upgrade my NT and received this email haha



> As of March 11th, 2015 CQG is no longer available for purchase for new clients and in order to be grandfathered into use with CQG you will need to have a live license key prior to this date. I am unable to locate any previous license key under your name and email address.
> 
> In order to further assist you with purchasing please respond providing any previous live license key.




Any suggestions on who to use if I want to keep using NT?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> So after a long break over xmas its time to get back to it. Schedule remains roughly the same as about, not ideal but all good. My only change will be to place less pressure on trading every night.
> 
> So I finally went to upgrade my NT and received this email haha
> 
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on who to use if I want to keep using NT?




Just use their brokerage, they're fairly competitive I think. It's iqfeed data, which is good data.


----------



## Trembling Hand

CanOz said:


> Just use their brokerage, they're fairly competitive I think. It's iqfeed data, which is good data.




Do you know if they let you use Australian servers like CQG?


----------



## CanOz

Trembling Hand said:


> Do you know if they let you use Australian servers like CQG?




Nah, not sure. I know that rhythmic has a server in Japan and they're the same feed. When I asked they didn't mention Australia though.


----------



## fiftyeight

A few emails back and forth with NT brokerage this morning . Will give them a go. I  don't need anything lighting fast 

Or back to IB. I know people use but I just seen a few annomlies  when using IB data with NT compared to TWS and this game is already hard enough to start second guessing data


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> A few emails back and forth with NT brokerage this morning . Will give them a go. I  don't need anything lighting fast
> 
> Or back to IB. I know people use but I just seen a few annomlies  when using IB data with NT compared to TWS and this game is already hard enough to start second guessing data




So basically you can only use NT to execute trades IF you use thier brokerage?

The other option is to use NT for charting and analysis and then execute on the IB Dom. Otherwise, if your stuck on the Jigsaw Dom, then maybe use multi-charts or something else? With multi-charts, you could likely use a good data feed like CQG and then execute through IB. 

Also, check out Stage 5 with Sierra chart. From what Future.io members say, its the least resource heavy intraday kit.....I think S5 clear through AMP, so i think thier servers are still accessible. 

Sierra and Jigsaw


----------



## Caveroute

fiftyeight said:


> Any suggestions on who to use if I want to keep using NT?




NT data providers listed here - https://www.ninjatraderbrokerage.com/trading_platform/data_providers

Is use CQG continuum - with no problems. 

NT brokers listed here - http://ninjatrader.com/BuyPlatform , scroll down to see the dropdown.  I use the NT Brokerage, IB is listed there amongst others.


----------



## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> So basically you can only use NT to execute trades IF you use thier brokerage?




Nah you can still use IB and a few others that are listed. You can still use CQG if you already have a license, just no new customers.

Yeah I definitely want to keep NT, I dont have time to learn something new. 

Cheers guys


----------



## Modest

Caveroute said:


> NT data providers listed here - https://www.ninjatraderbrokerage.com/trading_platform/data_providers
> 
> Is use CQG continuum - with no problems.
> 
> NT brokers listed here - http://ninjatrader.com/BuyPlatform , scroll down to see the dropdown.  I use the NT Brokerage, IB is listed there amongst others.




Does Rithmic include Eurex by default? 

When I switched to XTrader which uses Rithmic (from memory) I did not have to pay an extra $23 per month for EUREX only $15 for CME Bundle.

Can anyone confirm this? 

Sorry to hijack your thread 58


----------



## fiftyeight

Newb question

How would you go about making a bet that oil will dip below $10 in the next 5 years? Is this even possible (the bet, not oil going that low haha)?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Newb question
> 
> How would you go about making a bet that oil will dip below $10 in the next 5 years? Is this even possible (the bet, not oil going that low haha)?




There are extremely long dated options that you can use, their name escapes me at the moment. If they're only available on equities then an ETF option might be the go. But this is only off the top of my head, maybe WayneL or the like can suggest....


----------



## fiftyeight

Might as well give my theories behind this.

I believe that we struggle with exponential growth, hence why technology always seems to come out of nowhere.

I wish I was on the bandwagon earlier but funds were lacking. Electric cars, car sharing and self driving cars are about to change the world and it will happen way faster than anyone expected. So I want to have a bet on this via oil.

Before I was interested in "The Markets" I tried to capitalise on my theory that I would live to 200. I sent out a bunch of emails to see if any of the bookies would bet me my life insurance policy that I would live to over 100 or 150. They paid out on my 100th or 150th birthday or I when I died my life insurance policy was theirs.

This is what sportsbet replied haha


----------



## skc

fiftyeight said:


> Before I was interested in "The Markets" I tried to capitalise on my theory that I would live to 200. I sent out a bunch of emails to see if any of the bookies would bet me my life insurance policy that I would live to over 100 or 150. They paid out on my 100th or 150th birthday or I when I died my life insurance policy was theirs.
> 
> This is what sportsbet replied haha
> 
> 
> View attachment 66042




Hilarious! I didn't know you can even approach them on something like that... careful though if you insurance policy pays a lot, they might make you die of unnatural causes!! On the other hand, if you are with CommInsure then they'd lose no matter how and when you die.


----------



## fiftyeight

Funding AMP,

After many many dramas, a change of brokers nearly a change of platforms I have an unlocked license of NT so I am refunding my AMP account.

Should I fund in AUD or USD. Not sure of the pros and cons?

What do others do?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> Funding AMP,
> 
> After many many dramas, a change of brokers nearly a change of platforms I have an unlocked license of NT so I am refunding my AMP account.
> 
> Should I fund in AUD or USD. Not sure of the pros and cons?
> 
> What do others do?




Mine is funded in USD. I funded it a long time ago when the Aussie was strong. If you're going to trade US or European products, it makes the records relevance easier if you fund in the currency you plan on trading. Ninja is hopeless on currencies...So try and fund in the currency you plan on trading in to keep your records simple, that's my only view.


----------



## fiftyeight

Any ideas where I could get historical data for the JNM


----------



## shodd

fiftyeight said:


> Any ideas where I could get historical data for the JNM




If you're using Ninja this will not be as easy as you think. Ninja have stated that they will not carry any historical on their servers, meaning you will either have to do one of the following - 

1) Purchase a block from JPX . The parse the data in to a format that NT will accept. The problem with this is that there will be a gap in time between the data you have ordered and where the market is currently. So this option is only useful for running backtesting operations via NT.

2) Subscribe to a secondary data feed such as barchart.com, esignal, kinetick etc. I found esignal the best although getting NT to consistently fill from the secondary for this contract was problematic. Some days I would get the bars I needed, other days I would get a blank chart. The esignal client would display the data on a chart for you, but it exists outside of the NT environment so no good if you want to run NT indicators\strategies or a volume profile against the data. 

3) Leave NT running and collect the data yourself. There is an option to enable the writing of real time data to historical DB in the options somewhere. Again I found this problematic as some days NT would not update a single JMN chart. It would however record the data so you could view it the following day. I did have a decent amount of data stored only to find it disappeared on me one Monday morning.

4) Switch platforms. The folk at Multicharts offer a reliable historical service for the Nikkei 225 mini through their free to use Multicharts.net special edition that you can run via AMP. Multicharts is not everyone's favourite charting package, but it does have a lot of the tools you will likely need to use built in. If you're serious about trading this contract then you should look in to this option. The downsides being the 3rd party ecosystem is a lot smaller and you will need to engage with AMP customer support, which is never that easy.

I am currently trying to complete option 4. I use Jigsaw primarily so I won't lose anything from a functional perspective. The contract is about the right thickness for my tastes and being able to trade it during the work day here in Oz makes my family happy. I've just got to wrangle customer support in to fixing my platform setup which is taking longer than it should!

Anyway, hope my post helps you save the many many hours I have wasted to get a workable setup.


----------



## fiftyeight

shodd said:


> If you're using Ninja this will not be as easy as you think. Ninja have stated that they will not carry any historical on their servers, meaning you will either have to do one of the following -
> 
> 1) Purchase a block from JPX . The parse the data in to a format that NT will accept. The problem with this is that there will be a gap in time between the data you have ordered and where the market is currently. So this option is only useful for running backtesting operations via NT.




This may work. I will soon be running some volume profile and I use Jigsaw. If I used this for prep and then AMP during the session maybe.



> 2) Subscribe to a secondary data feed such as barchart.com, esignal, kinetick etc. I found esignal the best although getting NT to consistently fill from the secondary for this contract was problematic. Some days I would get the bars I needed, other days I would get a blank chart. The esignal client would display the data on a chart for you, but it exists outside of the NT environment so no good if you want to run NT indicators\strategies or a volume profile against the data.




This sounds less than ideal and is the exact situation I am trying to avoid. I have spent way too long trying to figure this out. I do not want it to be an ongoing battle



> 3) Leave NT running and collect the data yourself. There is an option to enable the writing of real time data to historical DB in the options somewhere. Again I found this problematic as some days NT would not update a single JMN chart. It would however record the data so you could view it the following day. I did have a decent amount of data stored only to find it disappeared on me one Monday morning.




I work remote and the internet is horrible while I am on site. I have been trying for a week to get it to work but it keeps dropping out.



> 4) Switch platforms. The folk at Multicharts offer a reliable historical service for the Nikkei 225 mini through their free to use Multicharts.net special edition that you can run via AMP. Multicharts is not everyone's favourite charting package, but it does have a lot of the tools you will likely need to use built in. If you're serious about trading this contract then you should look in to this option. The downsides being the 3rd party ecosystem is a lot smaller and you will need to engage with AMP customer support, which is never that easy.




I nearly went down this path a few weeks ago. As you said Jigsaw works and Rancho advised me that sometime this year they will be making their products available on Multi. I was leaning this way when NT finally gave me a one time chance to buy an unlocked licence of NT that I could use with AMP.



> I am currently trying to complete option 4. I use Jigsaw primarily so I won't lose anything from a functional perspective. The contract is about the right thickness for my tastes and being able to trade it during the work day here in Oz makes my family happy. I've just got to wrangle customer support in to fixing my platform setup which is taking longer than it should!
> 
> Anyway, hope my post helps you save the many many hours I have wasted to get a workable setup.




Thanks for the help, it has not been fun trying to sought this stuff out. Lots of dead ends and wasted time.


----------



## shodd

fiftyeight said:


> Rancho advised me that sometime this year they will be making their products available on Multi.




That would be fantastic! Will say goodbye to NT for good then.



fiftyeight said:


> Thanks for the help, it has not been fun trying to sought this stuff out. Lots of dead ends and wasted time.




No worries, hopefully you get up an running soon. Would be good to move the discussion from the logistics to the actual trading


----------



## CanOz

NT8 with Rancho is working really well. I've got a ton of charts open, all with composites and long term data...Its using a bit of memory for the data but the CPU is 1/10th of NT7


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> NT8 with Rancho is working really well. I've got a ton of charts open, all with composites and long term data...Its using a bit of memory for the data but the CPU is 1/10th of NT7




What's this "Rancho" you are all speaking of?


----------



## CanOz

ThingyMajiggy said:


> What's this "Rancho" you are all speaking of?




Its just a suite of volume profile tools.

RanchoDinero

They're really well coded, by an ex-Microsoft engineer.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> Its just a suite of volume profile tools.
> 
> RanchoDinero
> 
> They're really well coded, by an ex-Microsoft engineer.




Ahh I see


----------



## fiftyeight

shodd said:


> That would be fantastic! Will say goodbye to NT for good then.





Standard, finally make the leap and purchase NT to swap to Multi a few weeks later.

On site at the moment but I am going to investigate JPX

Did you actually trial this option?


----------



## shodd

fiftyeight said:


> Standard, finally make the leap and purchase NT to swap to Multi a few weeks later.
> 
> On site at the moment but I am going to investigate JPX
> 
> Did you actually trial this option?




I did - bought a months worth of data to see if I could convert it myself in to a format that NT would accept. Turns out I'm no data wizard. I could get OHLC info but the volume stuff just didn't work. I don't know why, I'm guessing I probably could have figured it out but I thought it faster to proceed with the jump to Multi.

I can empathise with the reluctance to move platforms after paying for NT. But at the end of the day having the right access to this contract was more important.


----------



## fiftyeight

shodd said:


> I can empathise with the reluctance to move platforms after paying for NT. But at the end of the day having the right access to this contract was more important.




Haha have not even had a good chance at using yet 

When I questioned NT about this they did ask if I would like to vote for getting historical data. Maybe they are working on something?


----------



## fiftyeight

Random thought bubble.

At the gym this morning and every single person has earphones of some description in. When you are out and and about more and more people are wearing some kind of earphones.

If they are much like myself and are listening to music too loud we might see a spike in Noise Induced Deadness. My new devices force me to accept a warning msg if I try listen to music too loud, protecting them selves from future litigation?

Time too look at my first specy biotech play haha?

http://www.fiercebiotech.com/ventur...ch-raises-50-6m-to-further-hearing-loss-drugs


----------



## fiftyeight

Haha one fore cynic

Was short asx200 cash with IG with a stop at 5433.

The bar that took me out was 5432.5


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

fiftyeight said:


> Haha one fore cynic
> 
> Was short asx200 cash with IG with a stop at 5433.
> 
> The bar that took me out was 5432.5




Wonder if its automatic, just put a stop order in, then trade TO the stop, so you make money from these evil naughty CFD providers? If it's so certain that they do it


----------



## fiftyeight




----------



## Joules MM1

fiftyeight said:


> View attachment 66853




"haha.PNG"

hail 58 :grinsking


----------



## fiftyeight

I have some daily OHLC and volume data for the NKY (Index)

I assume this would be a close enough approximation for the associated Future Contracts to do some simple Excel stuff or am I missing something?


----------



## fiftyeight

Is this the worlds biggest short squeeze?

Apart from a bit of gold I went cash in my super early on Brexit.

Quite happy to sit on the sidelines at the moment. Maybe buy some Sep put options..... I think. Maybe I should figure out options first


----------



## tech/a

fiftyeight said:


> Is this the worlds biggest short squeeze?
> 
> Apart from a bit of gold I went cash in my super early on Brexit.
> 
> Quite happy to sit on the sidelines at the moment. Maybe buy some Sep put options..... I think. Maybe I should figure out options first




Buy put options which has you basically long
OR
Sell Put options and be short?


----------



## cynic

tech/a said:


> Buy put options which has you basically long
> OR
> Sell Put options and be short?




If you substitute the word "put" with the word "call" then that would be correct in respect to delta. However, there are always the other greeks to consider (theta, vega etc.).


----------



## fiftyeight

And this is why I have not touched options yet 

I want to be short with fixed risk. Not fussed if I blow my initial outlay, just do not want to be holding any contracts during this volatility.


----------



## CanOz

Think of it like insurance. If you're selling Puts you are selling a right (but not an obligation) to sell the underlying at a certain price and you collect a premium for doing so. If you are buying a put, you are buying the right to sell the underlying at a certain price and you pay a premium for doing so. 

Selling options requires a different skillset, usually for advanced practitioners.

Thats all i know...


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## fiftyeight

That is what I thought???

ASX for example 

I buy a put option with a strike price of 5000 (the option to sell at 5000). It falls to 4800. I go on a holiday.

So I have a fixed risk, whatever I pay for the Option and an uncapped reward if the ASX falls off a cliff


----------



## elbee

fiftyeight said:


> That is what I thought???
> 
> ASX for example
> 
> I buy a put option with a strike price of 5000 (the option to sell at 5000). It falls to 4800. I go on a holiday.
> 
> So I have a fixed risk, whatever I pay for the Option and an uncapped reward if the ASX falls off a cliff







...and stays off the cliff to expiration (or you exercise early)


----------



## fiftyeight

What is with the difference between margin requirements? I thought it would be the other way around as buying the put has limited risk?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> What is with the difference between margin requirements? I thought it would be the other way around as buying the put has limited risk?
> 
> 
> View attachment 67328




I'm guessing one is regular trading hours and one is overnight? Sometimes referred to as day trade margin and overnight margin...


----------



## fiftyeight

So I  am way short. Liquidated my super early on Brexit (except for my gold) when I started shorting . Cashed more $$$$ than expected but also gave way more than I should of back.


----------



## fiftyeight

Cannot find much on trading the close of the es mini.

Does anyone have some good material on trading the close in general?


----------



## fiftyeight

This looks like it might be interesting if you are looking at learning Python

Introduction to Python for Data Science

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-python-data-science-microsoft-dat208x-2


----------



## fiftyeight

Any hints of the end of day vol.

It explodes out of the range of volume that has been trading but does not move the market.

Is there some un written code between traders to cover 15 minutes before the end of the pit session?


----------



## CanOz

That's the closing auction imbalance, sometimes in the tens of billions of dollars. Google s&p futures closing auction imbalance.


----------



## fiftyeight

So what happens, they all get the signal that it is time to start liquidating positions and hit out 1000's of at market orders?

It would make sense in my head if the volatility suddenly went through the roof but it doesn't really. I get people trying to get flatish but why does the huge volume have such small effect on price?

If you wanted to build a big longer time frame position, would you not just wait for the close?


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> So what happens, they all get the signal that it is time to start liquidating positions and hit out 1000's of at market orders?
> 
> It would make sense in my head if the volatility suddenly went through the roof but it doesn't really. I get people trying to get flatish but why does the huge volume have such small effect on price?
> 
> If you wanted to build a big longer time frame position, would you not just wait for the close?




AFAIK, the market makers have to wear it. The same thing happens on the SPI at the close. A ton of orders hit the market and it only moves around in a 5 tick range or so...Not sure of the process here, perhaps someone else can give the narrative? I've never been around long enough in many markets to see the close or even contemplate it, but its interesting. Danny Boy aka Mr.Top Step always talks about the closing balance.


----------



## RowanC

fiftyeight said:


> Cannot find much on trading the close of the es mini.
> 
> Does anyone have some good material on trading the close in general?




Trading the market on close is one of the best trades you can make IMO. However it would not be an easy trade in something like the ES.

I think you were to pull up a DOM for something like the SPI or even the FTSE Futures (smaller markets) and watch the final 10 minutes of trade, you'd see plenty of buyers and selling working really hard to execute their orders. Which basically means it's a great opportunity to make a couple of easy ticks.

However this wouldn't be obvious on a chart - you'd need to look at the order flow.


----------



## fiftyeight

Yeah pretty much just watching Jigsaw and trying to pick up a few ticks.

The ES is the only thing open at that time of day before work. 2.30 wake is early enough


----------



## fiftyeight

Change in roster again haha so back looking for an Asian market I can trade.

I already have NT8 and Rancho, so need continuous contract and historical data. Any ideas where I can get data that wont break the bank that will meet the above needs?


----------



## fiftyeight

I can get the SGX exchange, which does have a Nikkei 225 product. This will be $85 US a month. I guess I will get access to their other products as well like the Nifty. I could use this for NT8 and Rancho. Then use AMP CQG for RapidTrader Pro and to execute
or
Esignal for $147 US a month and that will connected through the OSE and then use AMP as above.

Not cheap but at least I will be trading in a convenient time zone (for now) and  will stop all the stuffing around. Or I am missing something really obvious


----------



## fiftyeight

Edit, the SGX exchange is via Kinetic


----------



## fiftyeight

The price keeps going up.

For continuous contract and historical data esig wants another $14 US / month. $161 US/ month total. This seems the only way to trade the Nikkei on the OSE with NT.

An expensive price to pay to trade a convenient time zone when I am only home half the month......


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

fiftyeight said:


> The price keeps going up.
> 
> For continuous contract and historical data esig wants another $14 US / month. $161 US/ month total. This seems the only way to trade the Nikkei on the OSE with NT.
> 
> An expensive price to pay to trade a convenient time zone when I am only home half the month......




Try CFDs? No fees and no comms, just the spread. Might be an easier/cheaper option.


----------



## CanOz

fiftyeight said:


> The price keeps going up.
> 
> For continuous contract and historical data esig wants another $14 US / month. $161 US/ month total. This seems the only way to trade the Nikkei on the OSE with NT.
> 
> An expensive price to pay to trade a convenient time zone when I am only home half the month......




Does that include level II?


----------



## fiftyeight

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Try CFDs? No fees and no comms, just the spread. Might be an easier/cheaper option.




I can execute through AMP easier enough, its the data to chart VP stuff causing the issues. Been trawling a few other forums and most ppl seem to have the same issue. 

Think I will bite the bullet and just switch to Mulitcharts. AMP have a free version so will give it a crack


----------



## fiftyeight

CanOz said:


> Does that include level II?




Yeah. I think haha I have been talking to so many ppl.

Nightshift makes talking to the US much easier


----------



## fiftyeight

Best I ramble in my own thread.

For better or worse I am going with Python. 

A few reasons, for a beginner there are plenty of good resources so even though the learning curve maybe a bit steeper than AB it shouldn't be an issue (famous last words). The last time I did anything like this was 10+ years ago at uni and I paid little attention so I am starting from scratch, I could do with going over some computer basics. I also need to go over some of the basics again anyway of how data is structured, stored and accessed. Same with my math and stats, it has been a long time since I have used any of it so having to look at the code a bit deeper will be a good refresher.

I would like have a look at some betfair data and how that applies to the bigger bookies. More for interest than expecting anything to come of it.

Not in a pessimistic way but I not super confident in "cracking it". There are a lot of people who are lot smarter, have more time, more training and more money than me looking at this....both in trading and programming. So if nothing comes of trading the skills I learn with Python will be transferable if I decide to go back to uni a pursue something else.

In saying I am not confident I have been skyping with someone quite involved in the quant side of things who has inspired me to look in to it. Many screen shots of equity curves that look fantastic. I have no secret sauce, but they really dont seem to be doing anything original. All the ideas they shared I have come across before, maybe its all in the application as tech is always saying. I am skeptical as a screen shot of a pretty equity curve mean nothing but everything I will look at initially will help with my intra day (when I actually have time) 

Enough time wasted deciding, lets get on with it


----------



## fiftyeight

A few different people have recommended "Learning Python The Hard Way" so I am beginning with that.

He uses Atom but I have already been playing around with the Anaconda install and using Jupyter Notebooks so Ill stick with that.

Was having a look last night at Quantopian.

https://www.quantopian.com/posts/trading-strategy-ideas-thread

Links to many different papers


----------



## History Repeats

sentdex on youtube is very good. Where i learn from.


----------



## Trembling Hand

History Repeats said:


> sentdex on youtube is very good. Where i learn from.



Not if you want to do Time Series Analysis correctly. His approach is fundamentally flawed. In fact it's not flawed it just completely ignores it!!


----------



## fiftyeight

First bang head against the wall moment....the pleasures of learning at home


----------



## fiftyeight

This will teach me for not following the book exactly.

Firstly Python installed wrong and I could call it in Powershell. That is now sorted.

Now I am working in Jupyter and saving in .ipynb which was not an issue....initially. But now I need to execute in Powershell (as per the video) but I cant figure out how to run it.







Not sure if I need to convert the file or call another program instead of _python
_
Seem clunky if I am always converting stuff. The videos I am following use "Atom" and they are saving in .py. 

I assume I have missed something really basic here but 

Any help would be sweeeeeeeeeeeet


----------



## fiftyeight

That makes me want to cry.

Found the fix, a very simple one 1 min after posting the above. There goes 2 hours of my life I wont get back haha


----------



## History Repeats

Trembling Hand said:


> Not if you want to do Time Series Analysis correctly. His approach is fundamentally flawed. In fact it's not flawed it just completely ignores it!!




just for the intro and using stuff like panda,ect. I think its a good place to start. But you're right.


----------



## fiftyeight

I have been following the Pandas sentdex videos when I want a break from LPTHW.

He smashes through things, I can just keep up then struggle when I try apply it  with out having to refer back 1000 times haha I understand the code, but I just cant recall it that well yet

Having a day where I am questioning my choice, have made minimal progress and can still do more in Excel haha


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

fiftyeight said:


> He smashes through things, I can just keep up then struggle when I try apply it  with out having to refer back 1000 times haha I understand the code, but I just cant recall it that well yet




That's basically what programming is, looking up documentation, syntax and Stack Overflow


----------



## fiftyeight

Haha yup.

Just simple stuff like working out what the gap between close and open the next day is time consuming.....still figuring it out


----------



## fiftyeight

Gave up on an elegant solution and just shifted the column down 1 row haha


----------



## Trembling Hand

df.open - df.Close.shift(1)


----------



## fiftyeight

Trembling Hand said:


> df.open - df.Close.shift(1)




Much prettier than mine

df["s1"] = df.Settle.shift(+1)

df["Gap"] = df["Open"] - df["s1"]


----------



## Trembling Hand

fiftyeight said:


> Much prettier than mine




Here you go,

https://becominghuman.ai/cheat-shee...learning-big-data-678c51b4b463?imm_mid=0f57e6

Collections of cheat sheets for everything from Python and Pandas basics all the way to Neural Networks.

Get on board


----------



## fiftyeight

First plot done.....took way too long but doneish. Something doesnt seem right, I didnt expect such a peak at and around zero.

Will have a look this afternoon.

Range was simply "settle - open". I had to think about this for a while actually, couldnt decide if I should use "settle - open" or "high - low"

If anyone actually cares I can find a better way to share, but I expect not so ill just snip haha


----------



## fiftyeight

Trembling Hand said:


> Get on board




That is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Isn't range High - Low?


----------



## fiftyeight

Yeah, just wasnt sure which would give me the info I was looking for. I have a few other simple ideas ill play around with this arvo


----------



## fiftyeight

Some stuff from yesterday.

The below had 798 days of data on the Dax. Nothing ground breaking and not sure I can draw any meaningful conclusions


----------



## fiftyeight

I always knew this would be the case, but even though I am only scratching the surface of Python, not even scratching the surface but looking at it from a far it has become even more apparent the size of the task ahead.

Also, I am still not sure ill even need the additional features offered by Python over Ami unless I use ML.

But on the flipside, LIGO (used to detect gravitational wave) use Python for a lot of their data analysis. Its is open source via a Jupyter Notebook so you can actually have a look at what they have done. Awesome!!!!!


----------



## DaveDaGr8

If you want to truly analyse the markets you're heading in the right direction.

AB is great for it's intended purpose, which was to create a graphing / backtesting program. For in depth analysis there are better tools.

ML is not the only use. The time series problem can be negated easier python by analysing performance over time for your theorems and choosing ones that behave consistantly over time.

Backtesting 1 million strategies at once. This might seem like overkill, but AB's optimize function lets you fine tune ( curve fit ) for variables. Python can take that next level and allow you to curve fit formulas as well as variables.

But yeah, it's a long road.


----------



## fiftyeight

howardbandy said:


> Until it does, stock and fund data can be loaded directly from the quote vendor into a Python Pandas database (like an array) from Yahoo, Google, or Quandl.  No local files are required -- although you can set them up if you so desire.  All are available free.  As usual, free is not always best.  If the quality is not to your standards, Quandl has a premium offering available with a subscription.
> Best,  Howard




A few people have suggested Quandl, I have emailed them to confirm they do not data for asx equities.

I am missing something here?

How are other getting asx equities data? Premium data seems a messy way to go


----------



## Trembling Hand

And now starts the unnecessary reinventing of the wheel.


----------



## fiftyeight

Trembling Hand said:


> And now starts the unnecessary reinventing of the wheel.




Haha if there is an easier way id love to hear it?


----------



## tech/a

Perhaps a more informed wheel


----------



## fiftyeight

Not sure how I missed it while I was looking yesterday, IB may be the way to go


----------



## Trembling Hand

fiftyeight said:


> Not sure how I missed it while I was looking yesterday, IB may be the way to go



Are historical data calls possible?


----------



## tech/a

I think so

They certainly are in all facets of scientific research.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> I think so
> 
> They certainly are in all facets of scientific research.



What are you talking about Tech?


----------



## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> Are historical data calls possible?




I'm missing some thing ?


----------



## DaveDaGr8

Trembling Hand said:


> Are historical data calls possible?



They are, but limited. Notably 60 requests in 10 minutes which wasn't actively enforced until a few years ago, but now it is.

https://interactivebrokers.github.io/tws-api/historical_limitations.html#gsc.tab=0

Also the data has been known to be wrong and questioned on other forums. IB's response is simply they are not in the business of maintaining historical data.


----------



## tech/a

tickdata.com
It's cheaper than you think


----------



## CanOz

Tickdata has gone up I think tech, minimum order $500. Roughly $100 per year / instrument


----------



## tech/a

Yeh
It's about $250 a year / ticker
For what you get it's not that expensive
Well I don't think it is.


----------



## fiftyeight

Ahhhhhhh FIFO

Weeks at home doing what I like, then weeks at work with no time. 

I think I still end up with more time at the screens this way, just not as consistent. I wonder which is better more time overall or more consistency???


----------



## fiftyeight

tech/a said:


> Yeh
> *It's about $250 a year / ticker*
> For what you get it's not that expensive
> Well I don't think it is.




Quite expensive if you want to trade individual shares on the asx200???


----------



## fiftyeight

Aaaaaaand I am back.

Now where was I????


----------



## fiftyeight

got a quote for historical minute data for asx equities in csv format.

$7,500

Might need a change of plan


----------



## fiftyeight

Came home after a few beers. There is no way you wear that dress unless Meghan Markle is up the duff..... Says the guy who is in the same jeans I put on, on Thursday....(Its been a good weekend)


----------



## Wysiwyg

fiftyeight said:


> Ahhhhhhh FIFO
> 
> Weeks at home doing what I like, then weeks at work with no time.
> 
> I think I still end up with more time at the screens this way, just not as consistent. I wonder which is better more time overall or more consistency???



I find trading skills can always be refined and flat periods are great for learning new tricks. I take the immersive approach and read or listen to anything that relates to my present and possible future trading decisions.


----------



## fiftyeight

I have spent more time setting up my new study than actually doing anything productive in the past month. 

This may be a case of getting all the goodies has made me less productive or I have reached an inflection point where productivity will soar???


----------



## fiftyeight

Didn't want to start a new thread as I am not sure I have much to say, just random stuff I stumble across, so this seems as good a place as any.

So, not commenting on the investment quality of these companies as I have no idea, but damn the ASX options list is full of boring uninteresting companies.


----------

