# Standards are Slipping



## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

Is it just me or has the standards of service begun to slip further down the slope of GAF (Gives a F@ck) attitude? Let me explain further:-

*Supposedly quality restaurant:- * Waiter brings out food and instead of carrying plate from underneath has it in the pincer grip with his THUMB totally ruining my duck ala ronge. Then as the PiÃ¨ce de rÃ©sistance he reaches across me from the right hand side to serve the meal!!!!! Followed by filling my wine glass nearly to the brim and totally stuffing the bouquet of the Wolf Blass Black Label 1998, Jimmy Watson Trophy winning nectar of the Gods. Now this is the high end of the market place we are talking here.

*Well known branded Clothing outlet:-* Looking very obvious that I wish to be served and observing the staff tell each other how smashed they got the night before and how they should not be at work because they are massively hungover. Finally catch the eye of the sales assistant who comes over and says "CAN I HELP YOU" as if I was a piece of dog **** she has just noticed on her shoe. "Well, yes you can, I would like to buy this jacket but I notice that you do not have one in my size. Is there any chance you can contact the city store and see if they have my size?" .... painful look on face "NUP, what we got here is all that is in stock". Delightedly, I left the store, jumped into my car, went to the city store and lo and behold there was the same jacket in my size. Service for you. This is the lower end of the market place.

If you are paying for the service then that is exactly what I want ... SERVICE. I do not think I am asking for too much. The old "Yes sir, this suit will ride up with wear" days are GONE. Is it too much to ask to have a certain modicum of standards? 

Does anyone have similar experiences when it comes to this kind of thing? Or is it just me?


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## nunthewiser (15 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Is it just me or has the standards of service begun to slip further down the slope of GAF (Gives a F@ck) attitude? Let me explain further:-
> 
> *Supposedly quality restaurant:- * Waiter brings out food and instead of carrying plate from underneath has it in the pincer grip with his THUMB totally ruining my duck ala ronge. Then as the PiÃ¨ce de rÃ©sistance he reaches across me from the right hand side to serve the meal!!!!! Followed by filling my wine glass nearly to the brim and totally stuffing the bouquet of the Wolf Blass Black Label 1998, Jimmy Watson Trophy winning nectar of the Gods. Now this is the high end of the market place we are talking here.
> 
> ...





LOL i see that you went to "lattitude 28" .......... tis a worry


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## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

*Staff in general:-* Ooooooooh the little treasures they are, underpaid and overworked, they regularly whine like an Italian jumbo jet with a loose fanbelt that the conditions they work in are horrible. When something breaks the answer is "I dunno, I just touched it and it broke all by itself" is a favourite of mine. "I  have been here three months, when do I get a pay rise?" is another. OMFG !


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## gav (15 August 2009)

Trainspotter if life is so tough, why don't you switch places with the common peasants you are being served by that are earning minimum wage?

Oh but then you won't be able to afford Wolf Blass Black Label 1998, so you'll have to find something else to complain about (and you wouldn't have the time to make 18 posts on ASF every day) :

There are HEAPS of hard working ppl out there - but the catch is, you have to pay them enough... 

PS. I once worked in retail (whilst trying to decide what to do next).  I asked for a pay rise after 3 months, and I got it :  But the difference was my employer knew it would end up costing him more to replace me because he wasn't going to be able to find someone who was going to make him as much money as I did...


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## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

gav said:


> Trainspotter if life is so tough, why don't you switch places with the common peasants you are being served by that are earning minimum wage?
> 
> Oh but then you won't be able to afford Wolf Blass Black Label 1998, so you'll have to find something else to complain about :
> 
> ...




You seem to be missing what the thread is about there my good man Gav. 

If the restaurant is purporting themselves in the market place as a "superior dining experience" then I expect the staff to be trained adequately to back up their claims.

I was at the pointy end, meet and greet, at the coal face sales trash for 20 years, my learned colleague and attended many sales courses to "improve" my skills. I have the experience to be able to critique the levels of service I receive in day to day life experiences.

AS I pay ALL my staff over and above the requirements set down by the unions and the law I am more than happy to accomodate them if they show some initiative and not break things or leave cabinets open during stocktake to allow expensive jewellery to be stolen.

What I am trying to get at is that it appears to me that the average punter in the street is ACCEPTING the inferior service we get dished up to us on a cold platter all day every day whether it be restaurants, retail outlets, petrol stations, wherever a transaction takes place. This place is full of ASFers explaining their BAD experiences with their brokers/online systems/whatever.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SERVICE ... or lack thereof I am commenting on.

P.S. I note my post rate has dropped form 22 to 18 over the last 2 weeks. I must be busy !!


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## Surfer35 (15 August 2009)

I couldn't agree more. The mistake I have made is living in Japan for too long.Once you have done that you can't come back and tolerate 
australian concepts of "service". And it's got nothing to do with how much we are paid, we just don't get it as our complete lack of refinement and willingness to admit we are deficient precludes us from improving.

I know, I know "if I dont like why dont I just p*ss off then". And that (all pervasive Australian response to any form of criticism) is exactly why we will stay the way we are.


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## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

Amen Surfer35. Amen.


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## Lone Wolf (15 August 2009)

gav said:


> Trainspotter if life is so tough, why don't you switch places with the common peasants you are being served by that are earning minimum wage?




This response just shows how the world is changing. There were always poorly paid people in society, many years ago conditions would've been even worse than they are now, yet the standards back then were much higher. Why? Probably because people used to have pride in their work. Pride in the way they conduct themselves. Regardless of what you get paid, there is a certain intrinsic value that comes from doing a job to the best of your ability. People these days care less and less about what they do or how it impacts others. It's people's own personal standards that are slipping and it's reflected in the quality of their work.

Of course the employer also needs to put the right person in the job and train them appropriately. The right person for the job just might cost more than minimum wage, but they should be willing to work for that extra pay.



gav said:


> There are HEAPS of hard working ppl out there - but the catch is, you have to pay them enough...




This makes is sound like if you pay someone enough they'll be hard workers. I don't believe so. The people who take no pride in their work and can't be bothered putting in the effort required to advance themselves tend to remain on minimum wage. A slacker is a slacker, pay them more and you just get a well paid slacker. These are also the ones who seem to think they don't get paid enough and should get an increase in exchange for... nothing. The hard workers are the ones that tend to find their way out from the bottom of the pile.

Yes there may be exceptions to the rule. And just because you work hard doesn't mean you get anywhere. Nobody said life was fair, but people can't complain about having nothing if they aren't willing to put in the time and effort required to achieve something.


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## gav (15 August 2009)

No worries Trainspotter, I was only taking the p!ss (hence my little emoticons : but it can be hard to tell when someone is taking the micky on an internet forum )  When there are so many problems in the world it seems a bit trivial to read about someone complaining that their expensive wine wasn't poured correctly...  (this is another joke)

I never meant to infer that you paid your employees minimum wage, nor that you don't know what it's like to work hard for a lower wage.  But many, many companies do. eg. try talking to a customer representative from Telstra.  As you'd know many businesses are under the pump to increase profits every year, and sadly it seems to come at a cost to customer service.

But more important than complaining about it, what can be done to improve customer service?  Did you ask to speak to the owner or manager of the restaurant?  What was their response?


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## gav (15 August 2009)

Lone Wolf said:


> This response just shows how the world is changing. There were always poorly paid people in society, many years ago conditions would've been even worse than they are now, yet the standards back then were much higher. Why? Probably because people used to have pride in their work. Pride in the way they conduct themselves. Regardless of what you get paid, there is a certain intrinsic value that comes from doing a job to the best of your ability. People these days care less and less about what they do or how it impacts others. It's people's own personal standards that are slipping and it's reflected in the quality of their work.
> 
> Of course the employer also needs to put the right person in the job and train them appropriately. The right person for the job just might cost more than minimum wage, but they should be willing to work for that extra pay.




Well maybe the 'poorly paid' people in society are no longer willing to work their asses off for the financial well being of those 'well off' in society?  Why should someone on a minimum wage struggling to pay the bills and feed themselves care about their rich bosses company, when the boss couldn't care less about them?  - I should note this is not my own personal attitude, but I can completely understand why this attitude has formed.



Lone Wolf said:


> This makes is sound like if you pay someone enough they'll be hard workers. I don't believe so. The people who take no pride in their work and can't be bothered putting in the effort required to advance themselves tend to remain on minimum wage. A slacker is a slacker, pay them more and you just get a well paid slacker. These are also the ones who seem to think they don't get paid enough and should get an increase in exchange for... nothing. The hard workers are the ones that tend to find their way out from the bottom of the pile.
> 
> Yes there may be exceptions to the rule. And just because you work hard doesn't mean you get anywhere. Nobody said life was fair, but people can't complain about having nothing if they aren't willing to put in the time and effort required to achieve something.




All valid points.  But I never said that you could simply pay someone more and they'd be hard workers.  And where did I say you should pay slackers more?  You are arguing points I never made.  Look at the quote you responded to - "There are HEAPS of hard working ppl out there - but the catch is, you have to pay them enough..."  

I've never been a business owner, so I don't how difficult employing the right person for your business actually is.  But I am a hard worker, and I do know how difficult it is to find a job that actually pays you well for working hard.


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## Lone Wolf (15 August 2009)

Gav, let me start with an apology. Reading my post it looks more like a rant directed at you. It was not meant to be. I was traveling all last night and haven't slept for 35 hours or something, I shouldn't have posted in that state. So let me finish what I started and I'll leave you alone. 



gav said:


> Well maybe the 'poorly paid' people in society are no longer willing to work their asses off for the financial well being of those 'well off' in society?




I'm sure minimum wage earners don't want to work their asses off every day so someone else can make a tidy profit. Same as I work hard every day for a very small percentage of the profit my employer makes. But unless you have what it takes to be your own boss that's the world we live in. Your options are to either start your own business or find a way to make yourself more valuable to an employer. I've worked in a job where working harder than other people got you nowhere. Now I work in a job where hard work results in good rewards. So I understand the frustration of working hard to get nowhere. But if they stop trying they will never succeed.



gav said:


> Why should someone on a minimum wage struggling to pay the bills and feed themselves care about their rich bosses company, when the boss couldn't care less about them?




They don't have to care about how well they do their job if they are happy to stay where they are. But why should an employer offer a pay increase or training to an employee who doesn't care about their job? Certainly, hard work does not guarantee results, but giving up seldom achieves anything. Of course, there is the chance they've given up trying in their job and are currently doing part time study to get their foot in the door somewhere else. You can't judge a person just by what you can see on the surface.




gav said:


> All valid points.  But I never said that you could simply pay someone more and they'd be hard workers.  And where did I say you should pay slackers more?  You are arguing points I never made.  Look at the quote you responded to - "There are HEAPS of hard working ppl out there - but the catch is, you have to pay them enough..."




Sorry, my mistake. I read that as "you need to pay the hard workers enough money before they'll show you what they can really do" rather than what you obviously meant "If you want to attract the hard workers you need to pay enough to lure them into the position".

Now that all done. Just food for thought. As I said, I shouldn't have posted. It's just these days there are many people with the idea that the world owes them something and that someone should give it to them without them having to put in the effort. That's what I think when I see people who don't care to do their job properly.


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## Ghetto23 (15 August 2009)

People in retail do have to deal with some idiots sometimes.

Here's a website to check out for a laugh http://notalwaysright.com

No excuse for your situation though.


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## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

Hey Gav ... I completely understood the tone of your response. It matters not if the wine is expensive or otherwise. It matters not if the people I employ are overpaid for their job description which most of them manage to tick the boxes in the correct fashion. The "correct" procedures are required to make the experience a memorable one. My main thrust of this point of objecture is that the Aussie "She'll be right mate" attitude is pervading the corridors of service to a point where it is now becoming socially acceptable. I am paying for a "service" to be provided and the attitude that somehow I am asking for more than what I am paying for is really giving me the irrits lately. 

Nothing more , nothing less. It seems to me that our standards have slipped to the point whereby it resembles a trip to "Fawlty Towers" and somehow I should be paying for the privilege of being served.


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## Glen48 (15 August 2009)

Subject: You Can't Fix stupid


>
> 
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> We had to have the garage door repaired. The Sears repairman
told us that one of our problems was that we did not have a
'large'enough motor on the opener. I thought for a minute, and said that
we had the largest one Sears made at that time, a 1/2 horsepower. He
shook his head and said, "Lady, you need a 1/4 horsepower." I responded
that 1/2 was larger than 1/4. He said, "NO, it's not.. Four is larger
than two..."
>
> We haven't used Sears repair since.
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> My daughter and I went through the McDonald's take-out window
and I gave the clerk a $5 bill. Our total was $4.25, so I also handed
her a quarter. She said, "You gave me too much money." I said, "Yes I
know, but this way you can just give me a dollar bill back." She sighed
and went to get the manager who asked me to repeat my request. I did so,
and he handed me back the quarter, and said "We're sorry but we cannot
do that kind of thing." The clerk then proceeded to give me back $1 and
75 cents in change..
>
> Do not confuse the clerks at McD's.
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> I live in a semi rural area. We recently had a new neighbor
call the local township administrative office to request the removal of
the DEER CROSSING sign on our road. The reason: "Too many deer are being
hit by cars out here! I don't think this is a good place for them to be
crossing anymore."
>
> From Kingman , KS .
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING IN FOOD SERVICE:
>
> My daughter went to a local Taco Bell and ordered a taco. She
asked the person behind the counter for 'minimal lettuce.' He said he
was sorry, but they only had iceberg lettuce..
>
> From Kansas City
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> I was at the airport, checking in at the gate when an airport
employee asked, "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your
knowledge?" To which I replied, "If it was without my knowledge, how
would I know?" He smiled knowingly and nodded, "That's why we ask."
>
> Happened in Birmingham , Ala.
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> The stoplight on the corner buzzes when it's safe to cross the
street. I was crossing with an intellectually challenged coworker of
mine. She asked if I knew what the buzzer was for. I explained that it
signals blind people when the light is red. Appalled, she responded,
"What on earth are blind people doing driving?!"
>
> She was a probation officer in Wichita , KS
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> We were having a good-bye luncheon for an old and dear
coworker, as she was leaving the company due to 'downsizing.' Our
manager commented cheerfully, "This is fun. We should do this more
often." Not another word was spoken. We all just looked at each other
with that deer-in-the-headlights stare. This was a lunch at Texas
Instruments.
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> I work with an individual who plugged her power strip back
into itself and for the sake of her life, couldn't understand why her
system would not turn on.. A deputy with the Dallas County Sheriff's
office, no less.
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTING:
>
> When my husband and I arrived at an automobile dealership to
pick up our car, we were told the keys had been locked in it. We went to
the service department and found a mechanic working feverishly to unlock
the driver side door. As I watched from the passenger side, I
instinctively tried the door handle and discovered that it was unlocked.
"Hey," I announced to the technician, "It's open!" His reply, "I know. I
already got that side. This was at the Ford dealership in Canton , MS
>
>
>
> IDIOT SIGHTINGS:
>
> When I left Hawaii and was transferred to Florida , I still
had the Hawaiian plates on my car, as my car was shipped from Hawaii . I
was parking somewhere (I can't remember) and a guy asked me "Wow, you
drove from Hawaii to here?" I looked at him and quickly said "Yep. I
took the Hawaii/San Francisco Bridge". He nodded his head and said,
"Cool"!
>
>
>
> STAY ALERT! They walk among us... they REPRODUCE.......... and
they vote


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## Stan 101 (15 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> I couldn't agree more. The mistake I have made is living in Japan for too long.Once you have done that you can't come back and tolerate
> australian concepts of "service". And it's got nothing to do with how much we are paid, we just don't get it as our complete lack of refinement and willingness to admit we are deficient precludes us from improving.
> 
> I know, I know "if I dont like why dont I just p*ss off then". And that (all pervasive Australian response to any form of criticism) is exactly why we will stay the way we are.




An excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly.


Trainspotter, yes service is dropping. It's unfortunate that my favourite weekend breakfast haunt in the hills (a cafe that sells fuel) has better service than a lot of Far North Qld restaurants.


cheers,


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## Julia (15 August 2009)

Lone Wolf said:


> This response just shows how the world is changing. There were always poorly paid people in society, many years ago conditions would've been even worse than they are now, yet the standards back then were much higher. Why? Probably because people used to have pride in their work. Pride in the way they conduct themselves. Regardless of what you get paid, there is a certain intrinsic value that comes from doing a job to the best of your ability. People these days care less and less about what they do or how it impacts others. It's people's own personal standards that are slipping and it's reflected in the quality of their work.
> 
> Of course the employer also needs to put the right person in the job and train them appropriately. The right person for the job just might cost more than minimum wage, but they should be willing to work for that extra pay.
> 
> ...



You later apologised for this post.  I can't see why you would.  It's realistic and a top summary of the concept of service in any sphere of employment.
Great post.



gav said:


> But more important than complaining about it, what can be done to improve customer service?  Did you ask to speak to the owner or manager of the restaurant?  What was their response?



This is a really good point.   Unless you discussed your dissatisfaction with the owner/manager, they are not aware of the poor behaviour of their staff.
I agree with you that you should be reasonably able to expect correct service of food and wine at a top restaurant.

I'd be very surprised if the owner/manager didn't thank you for bringing this to his/her attention.

At the same time, I think we should also bring to the attention of business owners any occasion where we receive excellent service.  This pleases the owner, and provides positive reinforcement to the employee for the good job they are doing.


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## gooner (15 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> "Well, yes you can, I would like to buy this jacket but I notice that you do not have one in my size. Is there any chance you can contact the city store and see if they have my size?" .... painful look on face "NUP, what we got here is all that is in stock". Delightedly, I left the store, jumped into my car, went to the city store and lo and behold there was the same jacket in my size. Service for you. This is the lower end of the market place.
> :






trainspotter said:


> What I am trying to get at is that it appears to me that the average punter in the street is ACCEPTING the inferior service we get dished up to us on a cold platter all day every day whether it be restaurants, retail outlets, petrol stations, wherever a transaction takes place.




Didn't you go to the city store and get the jacket there? Seems as though when you refer to the "average punter in the street is accepting the inferior service", you are talking about yourself"

Personally, crap service, I walk. Went to Tetsuyas in Sydney when it was in Rozelle ages ago. Best meal I ever had. Went to the the new premises with some friends. Waiter spilt most of a bottle of decent red over me and the table. OK, not great, but these things happen. Replaced it with a bottle of the cheap house red and still charged me for the original bottle. And then they scowled at me when I did not leave a tip. Never went there again.


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## trainspotter (15 August 2009)

Average punter in the street would have accepted the sales trash cr@p response and not bothered to go to city store Gooner. By having the Aussie attitude of "walking" does not make their service any better. Talking to management does not make things any better. They don't give a stuff. This is the Aussie way.

They need training in customer service from the top of the ladder down. And I am not talking about going on retreat camps for team building exercises. I am talking about basic training of manners like "Good morning, is there anything I can help you with today Sir?" and "Excellent choice Sir, I will get that from the cellar and decant it immediately" and not having to ask for the sales trash to serve you perhaps!!!! C'mon Aussie C'Mon.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (16 August 2009)

Customer service is **** in Australia. It's the attitude that the customer is a bother. I bought books form a shop and the staff didn't say a thing just the price. No "thank you".

But some little country famiy run biusinesses give good wervice.


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## cuttlefish (16 August 2009)

I've got to say I can empathise with the clothing store thing.  Particularly the 'aussie surfing apparel' emporiums.  How anybody ever manages to distract a member of the sales teams away from looking at themselves in the mirror long enough to actually serve somebody I'll never figure out.


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## gav (16 August 2009)

No need to apologise Lone Wolf, you made some very valid points  

I could have chosen my worlds a little better ie. "If you want to attract the hard workers you need to pay enough to lure them into the position" (instead of what I typed)


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## Prospector (16 August 2009)

gav said:


> "If you want to attract the hard workers you need to pay enough to lure them into the position" (instead of what I typed)




Maybe we should pay our politicians more then.


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## trainspotter (22 August 2009)

Absolute classic example of what this thread is all about. Poor service is killing small business's due to lack of skilled labour or the lack of training by the employer.


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## pj2105 (22 August 2009)

I'm afraid you are seeing it from your angle only.

Lets try to 'walk in the other persons shoes for a while'.

You are a restaurant owner.  Hard pressed you can hire two waiters to server 20 tables, but you will get better service if you hire 3 or maybe 4 waiters.

Truth is, you will probably have to go with 2 or in bad times even 1.  You will have to pay them per hour regardless if customers come in or not.  The economy is bad, other food stores are opening around you.

You have to cut costs to the minimum to survive. Try hiring 4 waiters and your costs go through the roof, if the customers don't arrive then your paying them for nothing.

That is one aspect, the other is something you don't even control.  Education standards have dropped dramatically.  Our children don't know the difference between 'minimal lettuce' and 'iceburg lettuce'.
People are raised to be consumers and not as though they will be the next generation to lead us into a better life.

The whole structure is poor not just the business owners.

In regards to your food experiences, I like to use the 3 laws of thermodynamics.
-you can't win
-you can't draw
-you can't get out of the game.

Go on...play.


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## pj2105 (22 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Maybe we should pay our politicians more then.




I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but I agree whole heartedly.

What do people expect of politicians if you pay them 200K, the Prime Minister is on 450K a year?  Costello will be on 1 million as soon as he goes into the corporate world.

If you under pay politicians you leave the door open for them to be bribed by the corporate world.  

Pay the politicians more, they work 24/7, longer, harder than any corporate and at the end of the day they are looking after the economy...our economy.  Temptations should be minimised as much as possible.

It is a joke what they get paid and the people kick and scream loud and clear that they are paid too much...I'd love to know by what standard they are measuring that.

The other side of this is that because politicians are not paid well the clear 'smart' people don't become politicians because there is no money in it for them...they go to the corporate world where they can get payments in the millions.  Is that what we really want the best people in the corporate world or in politics?


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## darkside (22 August 2009)

Trainspotter , unfortunately you are correct, good service now happens to be the exception not the rule, it has gotten to the stage where i am now surprised if the service that is delivered to me is actually good.
Waiters tend to treat us like we are an inconvienience, shop attendents tend to act like we are something they found on the bottom of their shoes, but by the same token , i always praise up good service when i recieve it as i understand how hard retail can be sometimes.


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## trainspotter (22 August 2009)

Thanks pj2105. I will try and look at it from my employees angle in future. 

I don't get the analogy about the waiter hiring thing by the way. If you were a good restraunter you would know how many covers you should be doing to hire the staff to serve them? Surely you would have them on a "casual basis" and take bookings for the dining experience. Gee we are busy tonight, better give Klaus a ring to wait tables then?

Yes, education is another pet gripe of mine. Save this one for another time.

I like the idea of the thermodynamics rule you have introduced. Can I add one more little subnote to it?

- you don't pay.


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## trainspotter (22 August 2009)

darkside said:


> Trainspotter , unfortunately you are correct, good service now happens to be the exception not the rule, it has gotten to the stage where i am now surprised if the service that is delivered to me is actually good.
> Waiters tend to treat us like we are an inconvienience, shop attendents tend to act like we are something they found on the bottom of their shoes, but by the same token , i always praise up good service when i recieve it as i understand how hard retail can be sometimes.




ABSOLUTELY Darkside. If the experience is good then the person delivering the "substance" is very worthy of my praise. (and usually a tip) I love nothing more than having good service, being "sold" to by a well trained staff member, listening to a retail person who actually knows their product. Wonderful stuff and will always buy from them and congratulate them on their savvy skills of service.


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## overit (22 August 2009)

I generally find these day I am just happy if people dont screw up. I stopped hoping for good service, now I just hope for getting the job done the first time without errors. I praise my old internet provider not because they exceeded their task but because they did what they said they would do. That is sad. 

The simple errors have got very little to do with training either. Just about everytime I get something done there are simple errors and screw ups. The hospital and doctors are one of the worst. Lost x-rays, wrong names on samples, wrong details. This was both public and private. Dont get me started on telstra. 

I did encounter some rare excellent service the other day though from the bloke who fixes portable fridges in cairns. I tell everyone who will listen to go see this bloke now.


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## gooner (22 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but I agree whole heartedly.
> 
> What do people expect of politicians if you pay them 200K, the Prime Minister is on 450K a year?  Costello will be on 1 million as soon as he goes into the corporate world.
> 
> ...




Just what we need - politicians who are in it for the money, not a better society. So we will get more Malcolm Turnbull clones? Politicians get paid more than enough already.

And as for Costello earning $1m in the corporate world, surely you jest?  He could not decide to challenge Howard, how will he make the hard decisions in the business world?


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## Smurf1976 (22 August 2009)

Whatever you do in life, do it well.


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## dhukka (23 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> I couldn't agree more. The mistake I have made is living in Japan for too long.Once you have done that you can't come back and tolerate
> australian concepts of "service". And it's got nothing to do with how much we are paid, we just don't get it as our complete lack of refinement and willingness to admit we are deficient precludes us from improving.
> 
> I know, I know "if I dont like why dont I just p*ss off then". And that (all pervasive Australian response to any form of criticism) is exactly why we will stay the way we are.




Took the words straight out of my mouth. You don't realize how poor service is in Australia until you spend some time in a place like Japan. The Japanese get paid crap at the retail service level but their service ethic is second to none. 

This attitude of why should you work hard if you're being paid crap is typical of people who think the world owes them a living. Work hard, prove your worth and you'll get noticed, if not, move on somewhere else.


----------



## pj2105 (23 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Just what we need - politicians who are in it for the money, not a better society. So we will get more Malcolm Turnbull clones? Politicians get paid more than enough already.
> 
> And as for Costello earning $1m in the corporate world, surely you jest?  He could not decide to challenge Howard, how will he make the hard decisions in the business world?




You are wrong here gooner.  Maybe if there was better money there would be better quality opposition in the liberal party to go against him, rather than the hohum we find.

As to what eventually happens when you don't pay politicians enough, go no further than Italy, which after the USA is bankrupt, with an ageing population, a declining child birth rate and what women they do have no longer want to stay at home and are working in Germany and elsewhere to get money, and in the biggest financial mess in Europe.  So what do they do to try and fix things....hire the richest man in Italy, thats what.

Multimillionaire who say they can 'buy' the country out of its problems because they have the money to do it (Turnbull can be seen in the lime light here)....wouldn't it be better to get the best person for the job to do it?  Oh yes the other kind of person you end up getting is famous people, hollywood actors and such because their popularity gets them the votes...they might be good actors but are they really qualified to run a country (or state)?

As for Costello earning a million.  I don't see that as a stretch.  I have friends who earn 750K and are in charge of superfund money to invest (actually I should ask them if they are still on it after the GFC).  Ok he had millions to invest and make money and he did it well.  But he wasn't running the company he was an investor.  Imagine what Costello could get for being his boss!

And don't tell me someone like James Hardie bosses earn 500K only, first off they have a 20+ member board, they all earn 500K, add car, petrol, annual leave holidays paid for to the Baharmas that isn't included as a salary.  Internet connection, phone, petrol, insurance paid for blah blah blah...add it all up.  We don't as get that as employees.

What did the outgoing boss of Macquarie get when he left something like 79million.  
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/19/curbing-golden-handshakes-nothing-succeeds-like-failure/
Divide that by 15 years, that is 5.2million bonus per year....so yeah, Costello got about 350K as treasurer during that period to run the entire country...Moss got 20 times that to run just one company.


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## bellenuit (23 August 2009)

I was shopping at a Coles supermarket a few months back and bought just two small food items that were both in plastic packaging. When the checkout guy put them in a plastic bag, I smiled, took the items out and handed him back the bag saying "We can save that bag, I'll just carry them in my hands".

"No problem", said the guy and he then chucked the plastic bag in the rubbish bin.


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## Mr J (23 August 2009)

I'm generally adequately served. Some service is very poor, but I don't think it's the norm. Maybe my experience has not been normal.



> Costello got about 350K as treasurer during that period to run the entire country




Costello wasn't running the country. If you want them there for the right reasons, I don't think increased pay will change anything.


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## trainspotter (23 August 2009)

Just went to KFC for lunch. Too many cars in the drive thru so went inside the shop itself to order. 2 girls behind counter and about 6 people waiting to be served. Girls are chatting to each other while the rest of us stand around. The girls were talking about what they had got up to on Friday night. I asked the person next to me if they had been served. NUP. So I went up to the counter and said "Excuse me ladies, when you have finished your conversation would it be possible to serve these customers?" I swear the look I got from both of these girls would have frightened Medusa. They grumpily serve the clientelle and when it came to my turn to be served, one of them plainly walked off. The other turned her back and chatted to the other KFC employees in the kitchen. So I waited, and waited and then finally she turns around .... "Can I help you?" dripped icily from her lips. I place my order and pay the money. When the food comes out I check it to what is on the order board. "Excuse me, the meal deal I ordered comes with 2 coleslaws and I have none" I request. Literally had the coleslaw thrown across the counter at me.

Yep ... service is slipping alright.


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## Mr J (23 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Yep ... service is slipping alright.




No fast food joints I've been to have been anything like this. I've always been served quickly and politely*. The only time I can recall employees standing around chatting away was at Harvey Norman. Other than that, I usually seem to get a "Can I help you" in a helpful or friendly tone.

*Actually the staff of a Pizza Hut were pretty lousy, but the staff before them were quite good (new management seemed to bring in new staff).


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## trainspotter (23 August 2009)

Must be the delightful *service orientated* city I live in ! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## Prospector (23 August 2009)

I went into a Subway last week around 8pm to buy a sub.  I was told there was no bread left - fair enough as it was close to closing time.  By the time I had walked back to my car, I saw two young men enter the store and thought they would be leaving straightway too.  To my DISGUST I saw the staff (both young girls) get out some bread rolls and make up subs for them! 

I contacted the store next day and they made up some story that some more bread had been baked.  Yeah right, coz I drove past the store again on my way home, maybe 30 minutes later and it was closed.  I am still thinking of reporting them to their main franchise.  Surely sex discrimination?


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## Macquack (23 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> I asked the person next to me if they had been served. NUP. So I went up to the counter and said "Excuse me ladies, when you have finished your conversation would it be possible to serve these customers?"




So your the pushy type, Trainspotter.

If you pushed in front of me to say that, I would not be too impressed.

I suggest you should wait your turn to not be served.


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## trainspotter (23 August 2009)

Macquack said:


> So your the pushy type, Trainspotter.
> 
> If you pushed in front of me to say that, I would not be too impressed.
> 
> I suggest you should wait your turn to not be served.




LOLOL ... but of course Macquack. You are so right, I am the pushy type and expect service. Could not believe the other people just stood there and watched the girls behind the counter chat to each other. How dare me interrupt their social life when they were being paid to serve the customers.


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## Macquack (23 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> LOLOL ... but of course Macquack. You are so right, I am the pushy type and expect service. Could not believe the other people just stood there and watched the girls behind the counter chat to each other. How dare me interrupt their social life when they were being paid to serve the customers.




They were probably to scared to say anything in case they might get more than the usual 11 herbs and spices included with the chicken.


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## trainspotter (23 August 2009)

Macquack said:


> They were probably to scared to say anything in case they might get more than the usual 11 herbs and spices included with the chicken.




Deep fried rollback oysters perhaps? Good thing for me the kids ate the KFC and not me I am thinking!  I had the leftover chinese by the way and the service and the food was exceptional ! I will go back there again.


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## Judd (23 August 2009)

Have had two differing experiences in recent times.

The first was in a shoe store, Florsheim.  Looking for dress shoes around the $250 - $300 mark.  Two sales assistants talking with each other as I walk in.  I am the only customer.  One assistant looks at me and continues talking with her colleague.  I wait for some 2 minutes.  Still no service so I turn around and loudly say to no one in particular as I walk out, "Well that's a $300 sale which hasn't been made."  I go to Rivers and get a nice decent pair of dress shoes for around $80.

Second was in Lowes at Knox City ( that's suburban Melbourne for those who don't know).  Looking to buy a couple of shirts, ties, belts, casual pants, T-shirts.  After about 30 seconds of looking around a sales assistant came up asked if they could be of help and it was all smooth sailing from there on.  Helped with the selection of trousers, shirts, looked for matching ties.  Was so good that I saw a suit which I thought was suitable but the assistant selected another so that the jacket would go with the trousers I had already purchased, made sure that the belts matched and were of the correct size, then reduced the tag price of the suit they had selected as it was more expensive than the one I had originally chose and then knocked off another $50 because I had bought so much.  Only spent around $400 in total but I must say I'd go back there again just based on the service I received.


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## pj2105 (23 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> I went into a Subway last week around 8pm to buy a sub.  I was told there was no bread left - fair enough as it was close to closing time.  By the time I had walked back to my car, I saw two young men enter the store and thought they would be leaving straightway too.  To my DISGUST I saw the staff (both young girls) get out some bread rolls and make up subs for them!
> 
> I contacted the store next day and they made up some story that some more bread had been baked.  Yeah right, coz I drove past the store again on my way home, maybe 30 minutes later and it was closed.  I am still thinking of reporting them to their main franchise.  Surely sex discrimination?





Could it be more like there boyfriends came in to pick them up and they made them some food?


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## trainspotter (23 August 2009)

I know this is bloody pedantic but:- THERE , THEIR & THEY'RE are different.

Use *there* when referring to a place, whether concrete ("over there by the building") or more abstract ("it must be difficult to live there"). 
There is an antique store on Camden Avenue. 
The science textbooks are over there on the floor. 
There are many documents that are used in investigations 
Use *their* to indicate possession. It is a possessive adjective and indicates that a particular noun belongs to them. 
My friends have lost their tickets. 
Their things were strewn about the office haphazardly. 
Remember that *they're *is a contraction of the words *they and are*. It can never be used as a modifier, only as a subject (who or what does the action) and verb (the action itself). 
Hurry up! They're closing the mall at 6 tonight! 
I'm glad that they're so nice to new students here. 
Test your usage. When you use any of these three words, get in the habit of asking yourself these questions: 
If you wrote there, will the sentence still make sense if you replace it with here? If so, you're using it correctly. 
If you chose their, will the sentence still make sense if you replace it with our? If so, you've chosen the correct word. 
If you used they're, will the sentence still make sense if you replace it with they are? If so, you're on the right track! 
Recognize incorrect examples and learn from the mistakes. By looking over others' work with a critical eye, especially by offering proofreading or copyediting help, you can become more sensitized to correct usage and practice it yourself. 
Wrong: Their is no one here. 
Wrong: Shelley wants to know if there busy. 
Wrong: The dogs are happily chewing on they're bones. 
RIGHT: I can't believe they're leaving their children there alone! 
Practice, practice, practice! Get your English teacher or friend to say several sentences aloud that include one of these three words and write down which version they are using. Hire a private English tutor if you're still having trouble. 

Spelling and correct grammar standards are slipping IMO.


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## Prospector (23 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> Could it be more like there boyfriends came in to pick them up and they made them some food?




Well, if they were boyfriend/girlfriend then it was very platonic.  And does this make it right not to serve customers in lieu of serving your boyfriend?  If they were regulars and they had pre-ordered, then maybe I could accept that, but that wasn't the reason the manager gave for non service.  It was simply, they baked more bread. Wrong!


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## pj2105 (24 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Well, if they were boyfriend/girlfriend then it was very platonic.  And does this make it right not to serve customers in lieu of serving your boyfriend?  If they were regulars and they had pre-ordered, then maybe I could accept that, but that wasn't the reason the manager gave for non service.  It was simply, they baked more bread. Wrong!




I think you are seeing what it was like to live in Russia during the bad times.  Just because Subway makes sandwiches does that mean they have to sell to you?

Remember a transaction is a two way deal.  You get to pick between different fast food outlets, eat at home; the choice is yours but because you choose Subway to eat, does that mean that they MUST sell to you?

You only have the money in the transaction, the same as the next 1,000 people to be served after you.  Maybe they just didn't want to serve you, does that make it wrong?


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## trainspotter (24 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> I think you are seeing what it was like to live in Russia during the bad times.  Just because Subway makes sandwiches does that mean they have to sell to you?
> 
> Remember a transaction is a two way deal.  You get to pick between different fast food outlets, eat at home; the choice is yours but because you choose Subway to eat, does that mean that they MUST sell to you?
> 
> You only have the money in the transaction, the same as the next 1,000 people to be served after you.  Maybe they just didn't want to serve you, does that make it wrong?




YES it does make it wrong. Apparently in any business you have these things called "customers". They pay with this funny money stuff for a "service" that the shopkeep provide. Your answer is so wrong on that many different levels that I cannot begin to answer it without my keyboard blowing up.


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## shortlist (24 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> YES it does make it wrong. Apparently in any business you have these things called "customers". They pay with this funny money stuff for a "service" that the shopkeep provide. Your answer is so wrong on that many different levels that I cannot begin to answer it without my keyboard blowing up.





Hi 

I'm new to the forum, and just read through this thread. I recall one woman I read about who was treated badly in a store. She proceeded to fil her trolley up to the top with everything she could think of and put it through the till. When the assistant told her the bill, which was hundreds of dollars, the woman said for all to hear "and that's what you WOULD have got if your colleague hadn't been so rude to me." And then she walked out leaving all the food at the till.


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## Prospector (24 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> Maybe they just didn't want to serve you, does that make it wrong?




Yes.  It is wrong.  Are you suggesting it is Ok for people not to be served, let's see, because of their race, their gender, the way they look?  Assuming that such people behave appropriately (ie not drunk, offensive etc), it is wrong and actually ILLEGAL to refuse someone service, if you have the product available, which in this case, they did!  It is called discrimination.


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## stocksontheblock (24 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> I couldn't agree more. The mistake I have made is living in Japan for too long.Once you have done that you can't come back and tolerate
> australian concepts of "service". And it's got nothing to do with how much we are paid, we just don't get it as our complete lack of refinement and willingness to admit we are deficient precludes us from improving.
> 
> I know, I know "if I dont like why dont I just p*ss off then". And that (all pervasive Australian response to any form of criticism) is exactly why we will stay the way we are.




I have to say I agree pretty much with the sentiment of this entire thread – service in this country is appalling.

However, I have lived in a few countries around the world and I do have to be thankful that the customer service here is still heads and shoulders above the UK.

God help us all if it comes to that!


----------



## shortlist (24 August 2009)

stocksontheblock said:


> I have to say I agree pretty much with the sentiment of this entire thread – service in this country is appalling.
> 
> However, I have lived in a few countries around the world and I do have to be thankful that the customer service here is still heads and shoulders above the UK.
> 
> God help us all if it comes to that!





This is my experience too.


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## awg (24 August 2009)

good..a whinge about service thread.

I recently emailed a complaint to ANZ about poor service.

their website states "complaints should be resolved within 5 days"

I dont call no response at all "resolution"

I originally emailed them, (my complaint being) after being transferred 4 times, the gent on the end of the line told me he was going to "terminate the call", when I became slightly sarcastic and requested he transfer me to someone that could help me...not before I got his details though!

the account balance WAS a six figure sum, will be mainly moved to another institution

any ideas?   I want a response!

I have worked in customer service, and I was gobsmacked this fellow would be so nonchalant..I used to pride myself on maintaining politeness in the face of the utmost discourtesy


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## nomore4s (24 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> I think you are seeing what it was like to live in Russia during the bad times.  Just because Subway makes sandwiches does that mean they have to sell to you?
> 
> Remember a transaction is a two way deal.  You get to pick between different fast food outlets, eat at home; the choice is yours but because you choose Subway to eat, does that mean that they MUST sell to you?
> 
> You only have the money in the transaction, the same as the next 1,000 people to be served after you.  Maybe they just didn't want to serve you, does that make it wrong?




Are you Joking? Since when does a store like Subway pick who it sells to? I don't think Subway would have turned into a world wide franchise by picking and choosing which customers to sell to.

If I found one of my staff doing stuff like that they receive a written warning at the very least. Your attitude highlights everything that is wrong with the service industy in Aust and other western countries.

Having travelled extensively through countries like Japan & Singapore some of the service in retail outlets in Oz is a joke in comparison. 



shortlist said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm new to the forum, and just read through this thread. I recall one woman I read about who was treated badly in a store. She proceeded to fil her trolley up to the top with everything she could think of and put it through the till. When the assistant told her the bill, which was hundreds of dollars, the woman said for all to hear "and that's what you WOULD have got if your colleague hadn't been so rude to me." And then she walked out leaving all the food at the till.




lol, that's funny.


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## trainspotter (24 August 2009)

awg said:


> good..a whinge about service thread.
> 
> I recently emailed a complaint to ANZ about poor service.
> 
> ...




Keep up the pressure awg. Never give up. Keep emailing the complaint via the website. Send letters to the manager. Bank attitudes need adjusting.


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## Buckeroo (24 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Keep up the pressure awg. Never give up. Keep emailing the complaint via the website. Send letters to the manager. Bank attitudes need adjusting.




The best way to really hurt these guys is with your feet. In honesty, I reckon they prefer you to waste your time on the complaint merry-go-round hoping your going to get sick of it & just give up - costs them very little.

Cheers


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## Mr J (24 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> I am still thinking of reporting them to their main franchise.  Surely sex discrimination?




Why bother? It will likely just be a waste of time, and won't make any difference to your life. I realise my attitude won't lead to things being changed, but being able to shrug off these kinds of things makes them non-events anyway.


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## trainspotter (24 August 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> The best way to really hurt these guys is with your feet. In honesty, I reckon they prefer you to waste your time on the complaint merry-go-round hoping your going to get sick of it & just give up - costs them very little.
> 
> Cheers




Ummmm .. ex bank manager mate of mine from ANZ reckons that receiving complaints agains the branch is taken very seriously from an upper management level as it effects their bonuses and EQ points.


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## Prospector (24 August 2009)

Mr J said:


> Why bother? It will likely just be a waste of time, and won't make any difference to your life. I realise my attitude won't lead to things being changed, but being able to shrug off these kinds of things makes them non-events anyway.




Because if I was the owner of this store, I would want to know that a customer had been treated poorly.


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## awg (25 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Ummmm .. ex bank manager mate of mine from ANZ reckons that receiving complaints agains the branch is taken very seriously from an upper management level as it effects their bonuses and EQ points.





valid point TP, they have a complaint management system, and some poor sod has to monitor timeliness of resolution, I had a poke around on the net about ANZ complaints, quite interesting.

The branch have been very good, that is the shame, it is the phone service I have had problems with, including them previously refusing to discuss my SMSF accounts with me, on the basis they were trust accounts.

That is why it is my custom to write down the name of anyone I speak to on the phone, it has saved me money a few times, and I know from experience that it is not good at all to have a customer make a complaint against you in person..if it happens more than once, then you are on very thin ice, in a CSO job.

If they do not respond, I will forward the email, which was written to an identifiable individual, to their complaints Dept again.

I am a little bit torn between the Buddhist path of letting go, and vexatious path of pursuing my complaint.

They have two different stated standards 5 days and 10 days

so I will just patiently wait the 10 days, then strike like a crocodile

as I noted on the Storm thread, it is beyond belief that people did not record all details of their transactions via receipted email, had they done so, they would be in a position to sue individuals and corporations.

call me paranoid, but I could tell a long story about sending and storing receipted emails in a former job, despite being told to desist, if I had not done so, could have lost my job, due to the incompetence of a manager above me, who tried to blame me..should have seen their faces when I flopped out what I had, discussion finished without another word


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## awg (25 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Because if I was the owner of this store, I would want to know that a customer had been treated poorly.




Prospector, I know a State franchisee for Subway, I can tell you he would make sure complaints are dealt with!

Just email Subway with the details and you will get a free roll, plus the store manager will get a boot up the backside, and he will then give the staff rostered at the time of your complaint a boot..try to acurately describe the physical appearance of the persons concerned, if you can remember.

I remember once receiving a complaint about a CSO, describing him as " a grey haired old bastard"...we all pissed ourselves laughing, as we knew exactly who they were talking about


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## pj2105 (25 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> YES it does make it wrong. Apparently in any business you have these things called "customers". They pay with this funny money stuff for a "service" that the shopkeep provide. Your answer is so wrong on that many different levels that I cannot begin to answer it without my keyboard blowing up.




Sure, yes customers and it is not in the long term interests of the company to offend them, I agree, but my questions remain.
Because they are there (Subway in this case) do they have to serve you?  
Can they say, I do not wish to sell to you or I don't want to server any longer?

Yes, I agree the long term consequesces say that customers will leave and never return hurting the business.  We agree on that.

But by law does a 'Subway', 'McDonalds' etc have to serve you?
I don't think it does, 'invitation to treat' in law gives the advantages to the seller.


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## gooner (25 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> Sure, yes customers and it is not in the long term interests of the company to offend them, I agree, but my questions remain.
> Because they are there (Subway in this case) do they have to serve you?
> Can they say, I do not wish to sell to you or I don't want to server any longer?
> 
> ...




pj2105

Good points. There are actually a lot of customers that some brands really do not want because they lower the tone of the brand.

BMW were concerned a few years ago that their old second hand cars were the favourite transport of poor people in inner city UK. And if you are a fat, ugly, short woman don't even try to get into trendy nightclubs in Sydney. They do not want your money. In fact they would be happy to pay you to stay away, within reason. If you are a middle aged, bald, very slightly overweight accountant with no style (hello gooner), same rules apply.


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## pj2105 (25 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Yes.  It is wrong.  Are you suggesting it is Ok for people not to be served, let's see, because of their race, their gender, the way they look?  Assuming that such people behave appropriately (ie not drunk, offensive etc), it is wrong and actually ILLEGAL to refuse someone service, if you have the product available, which in this case, they did!  It is called discrimination.




What!?  That is not true at all, you are mistaken.  Nowhere did I say they will not serve you because of race/gener/look or religion for that matter.  

I saw once a lady in Russia (which is why I used Russia as an example before) she was sitting in the back room watching tv while in her butcher shop, customers and out the door was a line of people, I'm not kidding there would have been over a hundred people waiting to be served (waiting in the snow).

When the tv crew asked the lady why she was not serving the customers she said she had been working for the last 72 hours and had nobody to replace her, she was exhausted and this was her first break in 3 days.

She wasn't serving the customers because of race/gender etc, she wasn't serving because she 'didn't want to'.

So I will ask again is their a law that says something like 'they MUST serve you'?
I don't believe there is, terms like 'invitation to treat' shows that a transaction is a two way deal.  The buyer must want to buy and the seller must want to sell.  If the seller decides not to sell, there is nothing in law you can do about it.

Yes, I know it is bad company practice, I've admitted that from the beginning, but that isn't the point of this tread, nor is gender/religion etc.


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## pj2105 (25 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> YES it does make it wrong. Apparently in any business you have these things called "customers". They pay with this funny money stuff for a "service" that the shopkeep provide. Your answer is so wrong on that many different levels that I cannot begin to answer it without my keyboard blowing up.




What would you do in the following case.  Your in charge of a large iron ore company, I come in and ask to buy your entire production for the year.  I won't buy anything else from you again, not next year not ever.

If you do agree to sell me this years entire iron ore to me, you realise that you face your Chinese customers wraith and that if you don't sell something to them, they might never buy from you again, hurting you in the long term, maybe fatally.

Do you sell to me, because I am the first customer through the door asking for your goods?  Or do you say 'I don't want to sell to you'?


----------



## pj2105 (25 August 2009)

gooner said:


> pj2105
> 
> Good points. There are actually a lot of customers that some brands really do not want because they lower the tone of the brand.
> 
> BMW were concerned a few years ago that their old second hand cars were the favourite transport of poor people in inner city UK. And if you are a fat, ugly, short woman don't even try to get into trendy nightclubs in Sydney. They do not want your money. In fact they would be happy to pay you to stay away, within reason. If you are a middle aged, bald, very slightly overweight accountant with no style (hello gooner), same rules apply.




Thanks for that gooner that is a great example.

What I'm really trying to show is that the buyer ONLY has the money '(nearly) everybody has money'.
But the seller has the goods and may be the only person selling it.


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## Prospector (25 August 2009)

Refusing to sell your product to a customer (me - female) then immediately afterwards selling the exact same product to a male renders the business liable to a claim of sex discrimination. How else can you explain it?  If the sign says 'open' and you do not sell a product to a customer who is behaving legally, then immediately sell to the next customer can only be discrimination.Once you walk thru the door then you have to treat every customer the same way.


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## trainspotter (25 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> What would you do in the following case.  Your in charge of a large iron ore company, I come in and ask to buy your entire production for the year.  I won't buy anything else from you again, not next year not ever.
> 
> If you do agree to sell me this years entire iron ore to me, you realise that you face your Chinese customers wraith and that if you don't sell something to them, they might never buy from you again, hurting you in the long term, maybe fatally.
> 
> Do you sell to me, because I am the first customer through the door asking for your goods?  Or do you say 'I don't want to sell to you'?




Not sure what angle you are coming from here pj2105. Subway franchise is a loooong way from what Twiggy Forrest just pulled off. Yes there is a legal obligation to serve customers. You cannot refuse them service unless they are intoxicated under liqour licensing laws and or abusive/threatening under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. (American legislation that is followed under law in Australia)  

Gooner is having a yank of your chain by the way pj2105. He is more of a Mercedes man than a BMW driver.

_"What I'm really trying to show is that the buyer ONLY has the money '(nearly) everybody has money'.
But the seller has the goods and may be the only person selling it."_

LMAO ... YES the buyer has the money and you as a shopkeeper wants the damn stuff that they have. It is called commerce. LOLOLOL


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## pj2105 (25 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Not sure what angle you are coming from here pj2105. Subway franchise is a loooong way from what Twiggy Forrest just pulled off. Yes there is a legal obligation to serve customers. You cannot refuse them service unless they are intoxicated under liqour licensing laws and or abusive/threatening under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. (American legislation that is followed under law in Australia)
> 
> Gooner is having a yank of your chain by the way pj2105. He is more of a Mercedes man than a BMW driver.
> 
> ...




You say above 'Yes there is a legal obligation to serve customers...', that is not correct.


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## trainspotter (25 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> You say above 'Yes there is a legal obligation to serve customers...', that is not correct.




Oh well ... then I am incorrect. I think if you look under the Equal Opportunity Act 1984 and discrimation can be proven then you are in a world of pain for "non-service" to a customer. If they squeal that you have refused them service and discrimated against them without valid reason _*ie *_abusive/drunk/underage etc then they are entitled to compensation. Ooooooopsies.

Oh by the way ... An ‘invitation to treat’ is a contract law concept that means displaying an item with a marked price does not constitute a binding offer to the world at large; rather, it constitutes an 'invitation to treat', or an offer to deal with the trader concerning the item and as such the retailer has the option to withdraw the item from sale. Nothing to do with refusing service.


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## nomore4s (25 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> You say above 'Yes there is a legal obligation to serve customers...', that is not correct.




You keep coming up with elaborate examples of businesses not serving customers but the fact of the matter is in Propectors example it is bad service and that is the purpose of this thread.

I'm not sure how you can begin to even justify it.


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## wayneL (25 August 2009)

nomore4s said:


> You keep coming up with elaborate examples of businesses not serving customers but the fact of the matter is in Propectors example it is bad service and that is the purpose of this thread.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can begin to even justify it.



Maybe he owns a Subway store in SA.


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## nomore4s (25 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Maybe he owns a Subway store in SA.




lol, or maybe his gf works in one:


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

nomore4s said:


> lol, or maybe his gf works in one:




Or maybe he was the dude who got MY subway! :

pj2105, you can say whatever you like, but it is illegal not to serve anyone who is behaving lawfully, if you have the product available.  Now, a service provider like a Doctor can refuse to see a new patient, because his books are full.  A shop can refuse to serve a client because they are drunk or otherwise acting badly.  An airline can refuse to board a passenger again because of drunkeness or otherwise disorderly behaviour, or they miss the 'boarding deadline'.  etc etc  

But you cannot, legally, say to one person, No, we are not going to serve you because we dont have that product available anymore, and then, to the next person, say yes, we are going to serve you. And it is then a very easy progression to then refuse someone on the basis of gender, race, age etc.


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## gooner (26 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Or maybe he was the dude who got MY subway! :
> 
> pj2105, you can say whatever you like, but it is illegal not to serve anyone who is behaving lawfully, if you have the product available.  Now, a service provider like a Doctor can refuse to see a new patient, because his books are full.  A shop can refuse to serve a client because they are drunk or otherwise acting badly.  An airline can refuse to board a passenger again because of drunkeness or otherwise disorderly behaviour, or they miss the 'boarding deadline'.  etc etc
> 
> But you cannot, legally, say to one person, No, we are not going to serve you because we dont have that product available anymore, and then, to the next person, say yes, we are going to serve you. And it is then a very easy progression to then refuse someone on the basis of gender, race, age etc.




Sounds unlikely to me - do you have a legal reference for not serving someone if product available?  Refusal on certain grounds - race, sex etc is illegal depending on state, but as far as I am aware there is not a general right to service.  Lots of service providers have products available you can't get. Want a mortgage, tough if you have a history of not paying money back, want a low income bank account with no fees - tough if you have a history of earning lots of money, want to join the Melbourne Club - tough unless you are an upper class prat, want to buy an apartment in a company title block - tough unless other shareholders approve, want to buy a kids meal in subway - tough if you are over 18.


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## Surfer35 (26 August 2009)

Agreed, there is no basis in law supporting Prospector's claims. Discrimination legislation extends to employment etc, but selling goods comes back to basic invitation to treat contractual principles. In fact, it is the customer who makes the offer to buy goods and the seller either accepts or declines the offer at law. Sure it may be morally disciminatory not to sell to someone on the basis of gender or race, but it is not unlawful.


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

I know this is all about standards, yet what about some respect? Is this not a standard? Take for example the cool/hip/trendy products/services such as Virgin Blue and Vodafone. Referring to people as “Guys & Girls”, “Boys & Girls”. I don’t necessarily want to be called Sir, or Mr, yet walking up to the gate to board and I’m greeted with “Hey there, how’s it going?” just makes my skin crawl. What the hell is ‘hey there’? Why am I, in the past few years, now being referred to as ‘mate’?

One day the people who work for companies such as Virgin will not be spotty 12 yr old’s who think that being a trolley-dolly is a great success, and so when they get older, and the airline as well, how will the ‘hey there’ and ‘how’s it g’ing’ going to sit with passengers?

It’s the same with a lot of “customer service representatives” these days, any element of respect has gone, and the focus is about being trendy and coming across as my ‘mate’. My partner and I were shopping in HMV on the weekend, when we went to the register it was: “how you guys going?”, “having a cool weekend?” and then preceded to talk to us as though we had all known each other for 10 yrs and were catching up after a couple of months.

What ever happened to speaking to people with an element of respect, courtesy and professionalism?


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Sounds unlikely to me - do you have a legal reference for not serving someone if product available?  Refusal on certain grounds - race, sex etc is illegal depending on state, but as far as I am aware there is not a general right to service.  Lots of service providers have products available you can't get. Want a mortgage, tough if you have a history of not paying money back, want a low income bank account with no fees - tough if you have a history of earning lots of money, want to join the Melbourne Club - tough unless you are an upper class prat, want to buy an apartment in a company title block - tough unless other shareholders approve, want to buy a kids meal in subway - tough if you are over 18.




Last time I checked you didnt need a credit check to buy a subway.  The examples you give are not relevant to what I am talking about.  And surfer, are you therefore suggesting it is Ok for someone not to be served in shop because they are black or Asian or white?  Because that is what you are suggesting by saying that every business has the right, not to sell.


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## trainspotter (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Sounds unlikely to me - do you have a legal reference for not serving someone if product available?  Refusal on certain grounds - race, sex etc is illegal depending on state, but as far as I am aware there is not a general right to service.  Lots of service providers have products available you can't get. Want a mortgage, tough if you have a history of not paying money back, want a low income bank account with no fees - tough if you have a history of earning lots of money, want to join the Melbourne Club - tough unless you are an upper class prat, want to buy an apartment in a company title block - tough unless other shareholders approve, want to buy a kids meal in subway - tough if you are over 18.




Gooner, all the examples you have provided have existing restrictions and or covenants behind them. Read the fine print on the application in regards to CRAA, the bank account, etc wallah wallah ding dong. Ummm ... I have purchased a kids meal from Subway, McDonalds and HJ's previously. Sometimes even order off the kids menu in restaurants. I am over 18.

You cannot discriminate in any form. Classic example was some Mens Club in Perth who had a MEN ONLY rule. Funny that .... being a Mens Club and all. Some smarty pants FEMALE lawyer took them to the High Court and guess what? She won. There goes the neighbourhood, she never wanted to join, just prove a point.

My understanding of the basic principles in the service industry is exactly that. You are there to provide a service. I am not aware of a law that states that a shopkeep MUST serve a potential customer BUT I am fully aware of the law that allows them to sue you if you don't !!!!!


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> Agreed, there is no basis in law supporting Prospector's claims. Discrimination legislation extends to employment etc, but selling goods comes back to basic invitation to treat contractual principles. In fact, it is the customer who makes the offer to buy goods and the seller either accepts or declines the offer at law. Sure it may be morally disciminatory not to sell to someone on the basis of gender or race, but it is not unlawful.




Nope, sorry you’re wrong. There are very specific grounds to refuse service to an individual, and in this country (Australia) they are, well should be enforced. So you cannot refuse service to a customer on the grounds of: gender, age, disability, colour, race, religion, or even if they are a Queenslander or Victorian – that part is a joke. This is not to say it doesn’t happen, I am just saying it is illegal.

To refuse service it must be for good cause. So, if you sell alcohol then you can refuse service if the person can’t prove they are over 18, or if they are intoxicated. The fact that I am a sober, black, red-headed midget doesn’t give you cause not to serve me because you don’t like red-head’s.

I see Surfer35 you have read Law 101, yet the offer to buy and sell – agreement of, extends to contract law, and not when you walk into your local clothes or food shop. If you own/operate a shop in which goods are for sale and it is transacted by means of a cash or credit payment and those good are open for sale in a place which is open to the ‘public’ then you cannot refuse right of sale to anyone, unless you deem the sale/purchase to be in breach of the law – such as alcohol. Discrimination is illegal, whether you are an employee or a customer. Based on your reasoning, if a shop-keeper was to have a sign in the window which said no women, or blacks, or bald people will be served in this shop, however we can’t discriminate against you if you apply for a job. Doesn’t sound right does it?


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

So I have now found some legal precedents for South Australia; this particularly relates to licensed premises, but the tenet is the same.
Quote page 5:  

_Discrimination is against the law when there is unfair treatment.

The main ways illegal discrimination occurs in licensed premises is:

 - Refusing entry to patrons based on race, gender, age disability or some other personal characteristic
 - Not serving or treating the patron in the same way other patrons are treated or served'_

Thanks stocksontheblock, you have confirmed everything I have read too.


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## gooner (26 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> So I have now found some legal precedents for South Australia; this particularly relates to licensed premises, but the tenet is the same.
> Quote page 5:
> 
> _Discrimination is against the law when there is unfair treatment.
> ...




No argument on it being illegal to refuse to provide goods or service on certain grounds. In NSW, these grounds are sex, age, pregnancy, marital status, race/ethnic group, disability, age, transgender (transsexuality) or homosexuality 

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/vwPrint1/adb_servicesprov

So you can not charge different amounts based on sex - interesting if you ever see a "women free" sign.

However, and as said earlier, I do not believe there is law against refusing service because you do not like someone's face or just don't feel like serving someone. By the way, if you read the list above,  you will see you can also have a "no muslims or jews" sign, as religion is not a prohibited ground in NSW


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> By the way, if you read the list above,  you will see you can also have a "no muslims or jews" sign, as religion is not a prohibited ground in NSW




I need to check this, yet I am pretty sure that religion is covered by national discrimination laws (this much is true), which in the event of any ambiguity in State law the federal law will prevail (that might need to be checked). So while the State may give the impression that you can say ‘no Jews’, the federal law would prevail and make it unlawful.

Not to mention the multitude of international treaties we have signed which relate to discrimination on the grounds of religious beliefs.


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> No argument on it being illegal to refuse to provide goods or service on certain grounds. In NSW, these grounds are sex, age, pregnancy, marital status, race/ethnic group, disability, age, transgender (transsexuality) or homosexuality
> 
> However, and as said earlier, I do not believe there is law against refusing service because you do not like someone's face or just don't feel like serving someone.




So, if you dont feel like serving anyone then you would put a closed sign on the door, wouldnt you.  If you have 'open' on the door, the lights are on and you are standing behind the counter, then there is the presumption that you are going to serve a customer.  So let's tick off that excuse.  Now, not liking someone's face - so I will requote:

The main ways illegal discrimination occurs in licensed premises is:

- Refusing entry to patrons based on race, gender, age disability or *some other personal characteristic *
-Not serving or treating the patron in the same way other patrons are treated or served'

Quite simply, I was refused service when I was told 'because we had run out of bread rolls and have nothing to put the salads in' when two minutes later, I saw two guys walk in, and guess what, I watched as two bread rolls were miraculously provided into which their salads were placed.  How was I not treated unfairly!

Oh yeah, and patrons also have to be treated on a first come, first serve basis.


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## gooner (26 August 2009)

stocksontheblock said:


> I need to check this, yet I am pretty sure that religion is covered by national discrimination laws (this much is true), which in the event of any ambiguity in State law the federal law will prevail (that might need to be checked). So while the State may give the impression that you can say ‘no Jews’, the federal law would prevail and make it unlawful.
> 
> Not to mention the multitude of international treaties we have signed which relate to discrimination on the grounds of religious beliefs.




Stocks

You are half right (and half wrong). Federal discrimination law includes religion, but only in very limited circumstances. For religion, discrimination law only applies in the context of employment. So for offering goods and services, the sign remains.

And re international treaties,this binds the Government, not the guy running the local corner store who does not like those two religions.

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/complaints_information/


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Stocks
> 
> You are half right (and half wrong). Federal discrimination law includes religion, but only in very limited circumstances. For religion, discrimination law only applies in the context of employment. So for offering goods and services, the sign remains.
> 
> ...




Nope.

From SA Equal Opportunities Page:

http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au/site/eo_for_business/shops_and_services/your_responsibilities.jsp

_Your responsibilities
Businesses are legally obliged to prevent discrimination and harassment when providing goods, facilities or services to the public.

This *applies to all businesses no matter how large or small*, regardless of whether the goods or *services are paid for or free*.

Under state and federal law, discrimination is treating people unfairly because of their particular personal characteristics or *because they belong to a certain group.*
In South Australia, it is illegal to treat people unfairly because of their disability, race, age, sex, sexuality, pregnancy or marital status.

Discrimination can include:

•refusing to provide goods or services
•providing lower standards to certain people
•offering people different terms and conditions to others._

And I see that your religious groups are also covered under this legislation.  In fact, ANY GROUP!  Gooner, your sign will have to go!


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## gooner (26 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Nope.
> 
> From SA Equal Opportunities Page:
> 
> ...




Prospector

I read the link. You highlighted "because they belong to a certain Group". This is a general statement made on the link you provided. The link then specifically explains what groups are covered by anti discrimination laws and looks as though religion is excluded as it is in NSW. I think VIC has stronger laws on religion - they had that ministry of fires (?) about religious vilification, although to me, the VIC laws appear detrimental to freedom of religion, but that is getting way off topic.

The sign stays in NSW and SA


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

I know one way to settle this. Do we have a willing shop-keeper to put a sign up in NSW or SA and see what happens when someone who is a Jew or has another religious basis and see the result of his or her objections?

Personally, I dont think I am that much of a gambling man. There's risk, and then there is RISK!

Although, there is always the element of cutting your nose off ...

Reject one customer who you need to buy your product, and its a sale gone, and profilt lost. Guess if you ran your business that way you wouldnt be to successful.

So, to bring it back to topic, run a business that way and no matter how bad or good your standards - and if you did treat people like this, then your standards are morally questionable to start with, you wont remain in business long.


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## Julia (26 August 2009)

pj2105 said:


> I think you are seeing what it was like to live in Russia during the bad times.  Just because Subway makes sandwiches does that mean they have to sell to you?
> 
> Remember a transaction is a two way deal.  You get to pick between different fast food outlets, eat at home; the choice is yours but because you choose Subway to eat, does that mean that they MUST sell to you?
> 
> You only have the money in the transaction, the same as the next 1,000 people to be served after you.  Maybe they just didn't want to serve you, does that make it wrong?



Wow, I've just caught up with this thread.
pj, I'm frankly wondering where your head is at to make such a response!



Mr J said:


> Why bother? It will likely just be a waste of time, and won't make any difference to your life. I realise my attitude won't lead to things being changed, but being able to shrug off these kinds of things makes them non-events anyway.



I completely disagree.  Most business owners really do want to know if their staff are letting the business down like this.

Besides, it was such a piece of bad behaviour I reckon if it had been me, I'd have needed to disperse the irritation by making a complaint.

Also kids who imagine that that's an OK way to do their job need a reality check.





stocksontheblock said:


> I know this is all about standards, yet what about some respect? Is this not a standard? Take for example the cool/hip/trendy products/services such as Virgin Blue and Vodafone. Referring to people as “Guys & Girls”, “Boys & Girls”. I don’t necessarily want to be called Sir, or Mr, yet walking up to the gate to board and I’m greeted with “Hey there, how’s it going?” just makes my skin crawl. What the hell is ‘hey there’? Why am I, in the past few years, now being referred to as ‘mate’?
> 
> One day the people who work for companies such as Virgin will not be spotty 12 yr old’s who think that being a trolley-dolly is a great success, and so when they get older, and the airline as well, how will the ‘hey there’ and ‘how’s it g’ing’ going to sit with passengers?
> 
> ...



Yep, I so agree, Stocks.  I do not want some kid in a call centre to address me by my first name, at least without first asking my permission.


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Stocks
> 
> You are half right (and half wrong). Federal discrimination law includes religion, but only in very limited circumstances. For religion, discrimination law only applies in the context of employment. So for offering goods and services, the sign remains.
> 
> ...




In respect to IT's, the government is bound by the conventions and laws applied to the signing of the treaty. Hence, those international laws etc are then to be reflected in our own domestic law - so I guess what I was alluding to, by extension the State, and the local businessman has to comply with the law, which is - going in circles now - an extension of any international treaties we have signed (?)


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## gooner (26 August 2009)

stocksontheblock said:


> So, to bring it back to topic, run a business that way and no matter how bad or good your standards - and if you did treat people like this, then your standards are morally questionable to start with, you wont remain in business long.




stocks 

agree with this point.

Rest of the discussion is just an argument about what is legal rather than what is right. Unfortunately, the two are often not the same


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

Mr J said:


> Why bother? It will likely just be a waste of time, and won't make any difference to your life. I realise my attitude won't lead to things being changed, but being able to shrug off these kinds of things makes them non-events anyway.




I don’t really agree with this! Where I have noticed this makes a big difference is when dealing with small businesses (expect Tradies, ha!) who take an active interest in the perceived view of the company.

Example: I buy a lot of wine - hence my thread about red wine, and I collect a lot of wine. So, unfortunately my name ends up on a number of cold caller lists etc. Recently a winery I purchase wine from had given my name to a call centre mob to contact me (amongst other customers) and see if I wanted to buy some of the new release.

I missed the first few calls, and no message was left. So every time that number rang I ignored it. If you can’t leave a message then you’re wasting my time. After 47 missed calls over a couple of weeks I answered.

Needless to say I said my piece. I contacted the winery (owner’s daughter) directly and expressed my concern. Now, I had no problem them passing my details on to contact me, yet the manner in which their 'representative' acted was a disgrace. They were annoyed, to say the least, that they had been represented like this, and were very concerned. Now, I trust this company, and the people I have dealt with, and if the response to me was anything to go by (apologising) then god help the company they outsourced the calling to.

So, it does matter! And it can make a difference.


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Prospector
> 
> I read the link. You highlighted "because they belong to a certain Group". This is a general statement made on the link you provided. The link then specifically explains what groups are covered by anti discrimination laws and looks as though religion is excluded as it is in NSW. I think VIC has stronger laws on religion - they had that ministry of fires (?) about religious vilification, although to me, the VIC laws appear detrimental to freedom of religion, but that is getting way off topic.
> 
> The sign stays in NSW and SA




Nope, it seems like it can only stay in SA!  The doc is too large to upload here but click on this link and it is Item 2.
http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au/site/home/search.jsp?orderby=rank&rpp=10&rst=&str=religion&xcid=2


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## nunthewiser (26 August 2009)

maybe eat at hungry jacks instead ?


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## Surfer35 (26 August 2009)

Stocks as opposed to Law 101, I've been a practicing solicitor for 8 years and I can assure you that discrimination law does not extend to the sale of "products". Any vendor has the right to refuse to accept an offer to purchase. 

Rights of entry and the provision of services are a completely different matter. I suggest you need to step up to Law 102.


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## trainspotter (26 August 2009)

Finally Surfer35 has the answer. Can you please steer us towards the legislation in regards to this matter. Thanking you in advance. TS


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## Prospector (26 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> Stocks as opposed to Law 101, I've been a practicing solicitor for 8 years and I can assure you that discrimination law does not extend to the sale of "products". Any vendor has the right to refuse to accept an offer to purchase.
> 
> Rights of entry and the provision of services are a completely different matter. I suggest you need to step up to Law 102.




So they refused to provide me the service of making up the subway.  What constitutes service and what constitutes goods?  

How can it be legal to refuse someone buying a drink, really because they are say black, but the business person can hide behind the 'I can refuse to accept any offer to purchase I like'.  It allows blatant discrimination.  

If what you are saying is true, then it is a sorry thing for culture.


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## Surfer35 (26 August 2009)

TS - happy to (gives me an excuse to avoid work). What legislation are you after (obviously, in regard to the sale of products, there is no positive duty placed on vendors to sell to anyone so the statutes are silent on this). There are however, various state and federal statutes governing rights of entry and service discrmination (not to mention a body of case law giving judicial interpretation to those statutes, but don't make me go there, I'd rather gnaw my own arm off rather than review case law).


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## trainspotter (26 August 2009)

Lets get off this topic about rights to refuse service and discrimation bulltwang.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/ConsumerProtection/Content/Shopping/For_traders/Contracts_of_sale.html

*On the other hand, if a contract exists and you (the vendor) want to withdraw, the customer is entitled to damages. This would cover, for example, the extra money the customer may have to pay to buy the item elsewhere.*

*An offer must be made by one party and accepted by the other. Usually, this is by a customer selecting goods with a marked price and presenting them to your sales staff with the clear intention of wanting to buy them.

Such an offer is frequently unspoken and, in most cases, you simply accept the offer and sell the goods at the marked price.*

So it would appear that if the offer is made by the customer and not accepted by the vendor then there is no contract to purchase persay. Thusly, shopkeeps technically can refuse service.

Now I may not be a lawyer but it seems pretty damn clear to me what is written here.

I had a customer in my shop the other day and they did not buy anything from me. Apparently they chose to steal it instead. Only a $2000 diamond ring. The staff left the cabinet open. Yep .... standards are slipping alright.


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## Surfer35 (26 August 2009)

Prospector - you are right that the law is quite opaque in this area. Someone earlier referenced a successul High Court suit against a male only club. The problem with general statements like that is without having reviewed the judgement and the finding of law contained within it, it is not possible to say if the findings of the court extend beyond the particular fact pattern presented (ie right of refusal for a mens club) to become a law of general application. Judges have been splitting hairs over the judicial meanings of words such as "service" and "products" for many years and the problem with cases such as these is they are difficult to establish. Most barristers are loathe to represent a client where the vast body of judicial interpretation remains conflicted or doubtful. Discrimination goes on all around us all the time, but the law is a laggard and remains quite ineffectual for dealing with any but the clearest cases of discmination for which there exists a clear statutory right of action. Although we don't have all the facts, it sounds as though your Subway incident is one of those instances where the law is not clear enough to render much assistance.


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## awg (26 August 2009)

My knowledge and experience is that you can be refused service point blank, in MOST cases, unless that represents a clear breach of some regulation, then it is up to you to prove that, on the balance of probability.

You can whinge and whine all you want, but there are a variety of reasons why service may be declined, and I dont think a business owner is under any obligation to state why.

As mentioned, there are exceptions of contract law

But a small business proprietor can just tell you to piss off.

My observation is that in these situations, the safest course of action for the proprietor is to not state the reason, or decline on the basis of alleged customer rudeness.

The situation arises frequently in bars and restaurants..try debating the merits with club security meatheads

mechanics can be a nasty breed


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## stocksontheblock (26 August 2009)

Surfer35 said:


> Stocks as opposed to Law 101, I've been a practicing solicitor for 8 years and I can assure you that discrimination law does not extend to the sale of "products". Any vendor has the right to refuse to accept an offer to purchase.
> 
> Rights of entry and the provision of services are a completely different matter. I suggest you need to step up to Law 102.




It’s the last I have to say on the legality of service and products, as this is not the thread to have this discussion – start one up and I will be happy to post my thoughts.

However, you cannot discriminate or not sell to a person because you don’t like the look of them, this by its nature is discrimination. Naturally, should you not have the item in stock, then you can’t expect someone to sell something they don’t have. Equally, should you be under 18 then you can’t sell alcohol to them, that’s the law. However, in many States the law is very clear when it comes to the sale of goods to a customer. If you offer a service to the broader public and display those goods in a shop that is ‘open’ then that customer has the right, as well as the expectation that the good will be sold to him/her.

Obviously, if you own, say a nursery, and sell only to wholesalers then an individual cannot demand the sale of any item to him or her, as the products – should be – are clearly stated that sale is only to wholesalers.

Refusal, under Queensland law demands that the customer must be made aware of why he/she is being refused. So, the refusal must meet any reasonable terms of store refusal, or it would be found that refusal was unlawful. So, you cannot refuse to serve someone because they are black. You cannot refuse someone because they are a woman. You cannot refuse someone because they are gay, and the list goes on. I am sure, should someone want to refuse sale then they can come up with a number of excuses: must be wearing shoes, yet they have thongs on; being rude or offensive; as well as many others.



trainspotter said:


> Finally Surfer35 has the answer. Can you please steer us towards the legislation in regards to this matter. Thanking you in advance. TS




However, it has been a while since I have practiced law and had much to do with it, however, as TS has asked, I would like to see some law that states that this behaviour – refusal of – is lawful. I understand the law might not be specific, yet there is also a truck load of law when it comes to refusal, store terms and conditions, unlawful requests, unlawful demands, unreasonable expectations, as well as store policy which contravene an individual’s legal rights. As you say, your practicing, so hopefully you have your finger on the pulse


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## chode84 (26 August 2009)

This is my latest case of ****e service, and its probably from one of the biggest offenders and a lot of people can relate.

About 3-4 months ago, I paid a bit of cash online in order to be able to watch a live football game in the UK that could only be watched online in Australia (Leeds Utd V Millwall playoffs for promotion for anyone who cares).

Saturday arrives and I'm all excited about the game and find out my internet is down. "no worries" I think as this can happen and usually just requires resetting the modem. That doesn't work so I test the phone line and realise its not active. I ring those idiots, Telstra to find out why and they tell me my bill hasn't been paid. This would be fine under normal circumstances but I had not received any bills nor any warning that my service would be cut. Turns out they had wrong address in database.

So I ended up not being able to watch my game and pretty pissed off but eventually got it sorted..... until last Friday, when they did it again. I rang back and they told me it would cost $59 to get connected again. I'm also still without internet and might get charged to get that reconnected. Once again we had no bills or any kind of correspondence from Telstra. They still had the wrong address but want me to pay!! You would think that they would try and contact you at the address where the phoneline is connected as a last resort!!

Probably the most useless organisation in the country. 

Rant over.


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## prawn_86 (26 August 2009)

Dont get me started on Telstra, or airlines. Nuff said...


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## overit (26 August 2009)

> Telstra worst offender for customer service complaints
> 
> Monday, 24 August 2009 8:04 PM
> 
> ...


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## prawn_86 (26 August 2009)

Jusat submitted a complaint to the ombudsman myself re: Telstra.

I would encourage anyone with a complaint to do so, as each complaint to the ombudsman Telstra is fined about $200 and has to pay any associated costs.


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## chode84 (26 August 2009)

Oh ok I didn't realize that they actually got fined. If they don't wipe the fees I will do that. And even if they do I probably still will just for being disconnected all the time without warning resulting in no internet for days on end.


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## Ato (26 August 2009)

chode84 said:


> (Leeds Utd V Millwall playoffs for promotion for anyone who cares).




You just wanted to see the Millwall fan violence


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## chode84 (26 August 2009)

Ha yeah they're a charming bunch arn't they. I take it you saw the riots this morning?  I actually went to a live Leeds v millwall game in feb this year and was expecting something to flare up due to the history but must have been too cold! (-5)


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## trainspotter (13 May 2010)

Had an appointment at a skin cancer clinic for a checkup at 1.00 pm. I dutifuly turn up and notice 9 other people sitting in the waiting room. Not a single one under 65. I meet and greet the secretary and fill in the appropriate forms. I then ask her if they are running on time today. She answers " We are running a little bit behind today" ... I ask her if she could define "a little bit" for me. She answers with "a little bit more than usual" and can I take a seat please. I ask her where should I sit as there are no seats left in the waiting room ! I suggest I wait outside, which I do. Now bearing in mind I am a looong way under 65, wearing black Hugo Boss clothes and am the only person waiting outside in the carpark, I wait for 15 minutes and walk back inside. The secretary looks at me and says "Can I help you?" .... I look at her and say "Yes, is the Doctor ready to see me now?" ... she looks at me blankly and asks me WHO I am? I advise her that I am the 1 o'clock appointment and have checked in already. She then asks me to take a seat. None of the previous 9 have moved from before. I begin to smirk a little and once again thank her for competency in this matter. I wait outside. 

One and a half hours later I get to see the Doc who takes 7 and one half minutes to look at the moles on my body and tells me there is nothing wrong. I go to the counter and meet the secretary again. She asks "Can I help you?" ... I reply I would like to pay my bill now. "Who are you again?" she utters ..... $110.00 later I leave the building shaking my head and relieved I do not have to do that again for another year.


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## Boggo (13 May 2010)

I can sympathise Trainspotter.

We have sold our our house in the foothills and are moving to a place we have in Brighton on the 28th.
I spent most of last Monday going through all of the address etc changes. One of those was AGL who we have our electricity through, went through their online process and got an email confirming that they had received the request.

Been away since yesterday morning, got home today and there is an email starting with "Dear Mr Schultz", all the rest of the details are correct.
I sent a reply asking who is Mr Schultz. An hour or so later I get a phone call apologising for referring to me as Mr Schultz and assuring me that the power would be turned off tomorrow as requested. 

Not tomorrow I feel like yelling, on the 28th as I requested on your online form.
A few childish giggles and she apologises again and assures me that it would be done on the 28th and that there will be a $30 fee.
I then ask her about the power being transferred to me on the place we are moving to on the 28th, silence for a minute and then she asks if this is new request, I reply that it is not, it is the same one that I submitted with the disconnect request.
A period of silence again and then the revelation that they have got the request but it has not been processed for some reason but she will do it now as we speak and there will be a $40.35 fee and it will be connected tomorrow.

NOT TOMORROW, on the bloody 28th, the same day as the disconnect !

Another 1 minute of giggles and apologies and we all agree on the 28th. What will happen on the 28th is anyone's guess. I bet the bill will include the two fees though.

I won't even consider trying to explain what it was like dealing with Aust Post while trying to close a PO box in one location and opening one in another with a 3 month mail diversion on any random mail to the one I am closing.

How do some of these organisations even function or stay in business ?


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## medicowallet (13 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Had an appointment at a skin cancer clinic for a checkup at 1.00 pm. I dutifuly turn up and notice 9 other people sitting in the waiting room. Not a single one under 65. I meet and greet the secretary and fill in the appropriate forms. I then ask her if they are running on time today. She answers " We are running a little bit behind today" ... I ask her if she could define "a little bit" for me. She answers with "a little bit more than usual" and can I take a seat please. I ask her where should I sit as there are no seats left in the waiting room ! I suggest I wait outside, which I do. Now bearing in mind I am a looong way under 65, wearing black Hugo Boss clothes and am the only person waiting outside in the carpark, I wait for 15 minutes and walk back inside. The secretary looks at me and says "Can I help you?" .... I look at her and say "Yes, is the Doctor ready to see me now?" ... she looks at me blankly and asks me WHO I am? I advise her that I am the 1 o'clock appointment and have checked in already. She then asks me to take a seat. None of the previous 9 have moved from before. I begin to smirk a little and once again thank her for competency in this matter. I wait outside.
> 
> One and a half hours later I get to see the Doc who takes 7 and one half minutes to look at the moles on my body and tells me there is nothing wrong. I go to the counter and meet the secretary again. She asks "Can I help you?" ... I reply I would like to pay my bill now. "Who are you again?" she utters ..... $110.00 later I leave the building shaking my head and relieved I do not have to do that again for another year.




In my experience many doctor's administration staff are power trippers, and the doctor, even if I know them to be a power tripper, maintain excellent professional standards with their patients.

As for the $110. That is what doctors are worth. Medicine is an extremely competitive and difficult degree, a difficult job to perform, stressful and with unbelievable responsibility. So if it is having a go at the cost involved, then I hope that you look at the earnings of sportspersons, bankers, accountants, pharmacists, tradesmen etc.

Not many alternate professions take 15 years to fully qualify.


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## trainspotter (13 May 2010)

medicowallet said:


> In my experience many doctor's administration staff are power trippers, and the doctor, even if I know them to be a power tripper, maintain excellent professional standards with their patients.
> 
> As for the $110. That is what doctors are worth. Medicine is an extremely competitive and difficult degree, a difficult job to perform, stressful and with unbelievable responsibility. So if it is having a go at the cost involved, then I hope that you look at the earnings of sportspersons, bankers, accountants, pharmacists, tradesmen etc.
> 
> Not many alternate professions take 15 years to fully qualify.




Not having a go at the Doctor or the $110 fee medicowallet. (although 7 and a 1/2 minutes is up there) Was having a smirk at the secretary that cannot remember that I had checked into the surgery less than 15 minutes before and as I was the only person under 65, male, wearing Hugo Boss clothes and pretty much sticking out like a dunny in the desert compared to the other 9 people waiting (over 65, not wearing Hugo Boss clothes, female, you get my drift) and she did not have the cognitive process that I was the same person? 7 and 1/2 minutes later I am standing in front of her wanting to pay the bill and she still did not recognise me? Ummmmmmm ... who are you again? I must have a forgetable face or something.


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## gav (13 May 2010)

So Trainspotter, you're upset she didn't recognise you when everyone else was over 65?  Maybe the hard life on the boat every weekend is catching up with you : (j/k)

My own little contribution to the thread:  I know Telstra are hopeless, which is why I no longer have anything to do with them (except for a pre-paid phone).  Last week I got a call from a debt collector on behalf of Telstra for an outstanding $300.  I rang Telstra and gave the account number provided by the debt collector... It was a land line I had disconnected 3 years ago - yet I was still being billed for it.

I thought that was a little odd, I had my mail forwarded through Aus Post, so I should have received any bills if the line wasn't disconnected.  According to the Telstra customer service guy my account was definitely disconnected, and they stopped billing me.  But they started billing me again 6 months later   I then asked why this was my problem if his screen clearly stated I had the line disconnected 3 years ago.  He ummmed and aaarghed, told me he'd wipe the land line fees.  I asked if there were any other fees on the account.  He said there were late fees too.  I asked if they would be cleared too.  He said "umm yeah I better do that too".  He then told me to call the debt collectors back and tell them everything had been sorted.  I thought this was strange, why would the debt collectors believe me?  Anyway I called them, and they seemed OK with my explanation.  Oh, this took over 90mins of my time to sort out over the phone too.

Yesterday I received a bill for that same account at my current residential address.  This time the bill had increased.  I rang again, was transferred repeatedly, and told the problem had been fixed this time.  This took 45mins (of which 25mins was on hold).  Then I was told to call Telstra's Customer Credit/Debt area to make sure I wasn't on their naughty list anymore, and wouldnt get further hastles from debt collectors.  After being transferred twice and on hold for 25 mins, I was told I was no longer on their list because the bill had been cancelled and there was no need to call them in the first place.  

So all up, nearly 3 hours on the phone in the space of 1 week.  I thought I had rid my life of the evil Telstra, but they keep coming back to haunt me...


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## trainspotter (13 May 2010)

gav said:


> So Trainspotter, you're upset she didn't recognise you when everyone else was over 65?  Maybe the hard life on the boat every weekend is catching up with you : (j/k)(




LOLOLOL ... you could be onto something there gav ! I might have to start looking at using some kind of moisturiser or something !! 

I am hearing you about the Telstra dramas. Recently finished 2 commercial sheds. Had existing phone number from previous premise and requested Telstra put same phone number on at new shed and connect new line to second shed for alarm system. All good for a period of time until I went to use the phone after about 2 months. No dial tone .... all dead ? Phone Telstra and they tell me no money is outstanding on account and no explanation? I ask again to find out why I have no dial tone. Must be a fault they say. Technician comes out and tells me nothing is wrong. He investigates himself and gets back to me with this:-

When I asked for the existing phone number to be connected the person I spoke to decided to put me on a commercial business plan and was sending the bills to the commercial sheds. No letterbox so therefore I did not get the bills so they cut me off. I spent the next 4 hours on the phone to Telstra to try and sort it out. They would not sort it out unless I paid the bill and all the late fees. 

I explained to them that why should I pay a bill that I never asked to be put on a commercial rate as well as changing my address as well as all the late fees. Gave up in disgust.

Day 2 .... spent another 2 hours on the phone to Telstra being flicked from credit department to reconnection dept to complaint dept ranging from NSW to QLD to Singapore and then to Pakistan to be disconnected. Phone them again. Another 2 hours on the phone and shoved from pillar to post. FINALLY got a lady by the name of Amy in NSW who within 2 minutes reduced my bill to the right amount, reversed the late charges, reinstated the proper mailing address, contacted credit and sorted them out, put me onto reconnection dept and stayed on the line while they made a time to reconnect the phones that should not have been disconnected in the first place. Why could they have not doen this in the first place?

GOSH I HATE TELSTRA !


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## Tink (14 May 2010)

trainspotter said:


> GOSH I HATE TELSTRA !




Yep, I will jump on that bandwagon.

I havent been with Telstra for over 7 years and I refuse to ever go with them.

Internet was off more than on.

Phone was always over charged.

Best thing that ever happened to them was when we introduced competition.


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## trainspotter (1 June 2011)

Been storing up a lot of bile from the crapola service I have been receiving lately but this one takes the cake.

Was fishing about a month ago and I released the drag on the overhead spool to let some line out. Hook got caught so I released the drag again. KERPLOP goes the drag spool adjustment cap into the water.

Took reel to tackle shop to be serviced and replace missing part. They assured me they would have one within a few days. Went back a week later to be on the safe side. No part has turned up but it will be here any day now. They blamed the postal company and assured me it was on it's way. Left it for another week and repeated step 1 for the same answer. Third time same answer !!!!!!!!!! 1st June now so I went in and asked them how is it going. "Oooooohhh it should be here any day now" was the reply.

NUP ...... not good enough mate I replied and asked him to phone the company they have ordered it from. The company tells them they have no record of the order and the replacement part will be sent out today and they should receive by Friday 3rd June.

He then floors me with *"If it is not here by Friday mate I can take one off the reels in stock and replace it with the part that is coming".*

Now this is a small LOCAL tackle shop that I have supported for many years with purchases of very expensive fishing gear. 

I walked out and said I will be back on Friday. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## Boggo (1 June 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Now this is a small LOCAL tackle shop that I have supported for many years with purchases of very expensive fishing gear.
> 
> I walked out and said I will be back on Friday. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr




And then they wonder why people buy online


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## Tyler Durden (1 June 2011)

I'm not very fussy about service, so in general I've never had many problems. However, when one visits another country like Hong Kong or Japan, you will notice some huge difference in the level of courtesy and service between our country and theirs.

Some of my 'experiences' are:

*Giordano:* They were having a 50% off everything sale, and I wasn't sure if it was 50% off the handwritten price on the tag, or if that was already the discounted price, so I took it to the girl at the counter and asked. The response? "What do you think?" Ouch.

*Suttons Holden:* My dad and I went to buy a car, and we reached the stage where we were in the office negotiating the price and the interest rate. When the guy couldn't offer the price my dad wanted, my dad indicated that we'd be leaving. The guy then said "well, what are you going to do for a car?"

OMG I DIDN'T KNOW SUTTONS HOLDEN WAS THE ONLY CAR DEALERSHIP IN SYDNEY!!!

*Hoyts:* I bought a ticket for a movie, and the young girl asked if I wanted to pay an extra $10 to join the Hoyts membership rewards program. I politely declined, and she made a face as if to say "fine, you cheapskate". I was kinda surprised, because I figured most people would decline so she'd be used to it. But this one I can excuse because she was young and probably didn't know any better.

*Myer:* I like to visit the Sydney city store about once every fortnight, and I always check out the men's fashion department. Sometimes I buy shirts and ties. There is an Asian guy there, maybe about mid to late 20's, kinda bulky, who is ALWAYS standing around talking to a mate. He has never asked me if I needed help or anything, and it seems like all he does is get paid to talk to his friends.


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## Julia (1 June 2011)

What I just hate and it happens all the time, especially in supermarkets.
You're standing at the deli waiting to be served and the assistant says:
"You right there?"

Well, no, if I were 'right', I wouldn't damn well be standing here waiting for some service.

Where on earth does this stupid expression come from!


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## Wysiwyg (1 June 2011)

Julia said:


> What I just hate and it happens all the time, especially in supermarkets.
> You're standing at the deli waiting to be served and the assistant says:
> "You right there?"
> 
> ...



Gee whiz. They must get some sour ones through the place.


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## Ruby (2 June 2011)

I have only just come accross this thread and have to concur with others that standards of service, courtesy and respect are absolutely appalling in a lot of cases.  One thing that advancing age has given me is the confidence to complain when I think it is necessary - politely, firmly, and to continue pushing my case until satisfaction is achieved.

A few years ago I was treated rudely by an arrogant little creep making recommendations for a stock report to which I subscribed.  I phoned the licencee and said to the receptionist "Put me straight through to your general manager or my next call is to ASIC, and I can assure you he won't like that."  (Don't know what ASIC would have done, but it sounded good.)  It worked, the problem was fixed that afternoon, I had a refund of my subscription, and I believe the offending person was sacked.

Another time I found some strange entries on my credit card for airline tickets.  Initially the airline rep was offhand and told me to get the cc company to cancel it.  There was a bit of argy bargy and eventually he admitted it was the airline company's error, but would not say what it was.   After further wrangling I forced them to admit they had charged another person's tickets to my cc (I had just made a booking so can see how it happened.)  Having admittd fault, you would think they would have been grovelling in their efforts to rectify it, but no, I was then advised that an immediate credit was "not possible."  Patience exhausted, I demanded to speak to a supervisor.  When he came to the phone I said "If I do not have this rectified NOW, my next phone call is to the police and I will have you charge with theft."   5 minutes!!  I did write to the airline with a complaint about the matter, but never had a reply!!

I hate having to be a dragon, but I am way past the time when I will allow people to walk on me.  We should all complain a lot more (when it is warranted) and should not be afraid to go straight to the top.  I have absolutely no compuntion about interrupting idly chatting sales people or complaining about non-existent service, or about ringing the ombudsman, but equally I am happy to give credit when it is due.  I think that is important too.


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## Logique (2 June 2011)

medicowallet said:


> In my experience many doctor's administration staff are power trippers, and the doctor, even if I know them to be a power tripper, maintain excellent professional standards with their patients.



My experience also. Doctors = great, but where do they find these medical centre staffers, and how do they train them. If at all. Unbelievably snooty. 

In my local medical centre, it's been too much for some patients, who won't go back.


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## Julia (2 June 2011)

Ruby said:


> I have only just come accross this thread and have to concur with others that standards of service, courtesy and respect are absolutely appalling in a lot of cases.  One thing that advancing age has given me is the confidence to complain when I think it is necessary - politely, firmly, and to continue pushing my case until satisfaction is achieved.




Go Ruby!!   Good for you.  Agree totally.


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## Greg (3 June 2011)

I have to agree that the whole issue of "customer service" and "service excellence" seem to be things of the past. In a former life I was a customer service manager for a large technology company and we were a company that was well known (in our industry) for our "excellent staff training". We actually took pride in delivering customer service and gladly recognised any staff member who received positive feedback from our clients. I actually looked forward to the day I could retire from full time employment and continue training people in the "Art of delivering quality service". Sadly, it appears there is no longer a demand for this service, and it looks from this thread like we have all seen and noticed it. we just don't get customer service any more.

The fact of the matter is that delivering great service actually comes at a cost (even though that cost is nothing in the overall scheme of things) but the "bean counters" got involved and made sure that if it didn't contribute "directly to the bottom line" then it was done away with. Training budgets were cut, the time spent training our staff was used to do something with a more direct contribution to the bottom line and the argument that customer satisfaction leads to repeat business was lost as it was almost impossible (or at least expensive) to prove.

It doesn't cost anything to use the words "thank you" and it's costs the same to have a pleasant tone of voice as it does to have a blunt and uncaring one. A smile at the point of sale costs nothing, but is worth a small fortune to many of us. It certainly allows us to tell other people of a good custmer service experience.
Yes, I mourn the passing of customer service.


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## Glen48 (3 June 2011)

Every one when they turn 18 should be given 1K and put on a RAAF plane and sent to some over seas 3rd world  place including China this would RAAF crews training and make OZ people realize how lucky they are and whats to come over the years for them.

 There is a show on ABC called Blood Sweat and Food it is about Pom's who go harvesting rice, digging Gold by hand  or some such thing with the locals and see how it all works in the real world, some gp home to mummy others go back and start a campaign to stop sweat shops.


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## Tyler Durden (3 June 2011)

And now they want to impose a tax on stuff bought online, just so these rude people can keep their jobs! Talk about a backward country - let's pay more out of our pockets so we can receive rude treatment!!!


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## Tyler Durden (7 June 2011)

I just remembered another example last night.

Once during lunch I went walking through a shopping centre, and spotted a suit I really liked, but didn't have the money for. So on payday after work, I decided to go buy it. The shop closes at 5pm and I got there at about 15 minutes before it closed.

I went straight to the suit, had a look at it, and said to the guy "excuse me" only to be cut off, and told that I had to get out because they were closing. He then ushered me out with his hands, shooing me away like a pigeon.

I was stunned. I wrote a complaint to the company, only to get what sounded like a half hearted apology. I have never been back to that franchise.


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## trainspotter (15 July 2011)

GADZOOKS I AM P!SSED at the indolent service I receive in purchasing product these days.

Case study 1 ...... in (insert big food conglomerate here) doing the food shopping. Lady behind counter is obviously talking to her friends. I load the conveyor belt with my purchases. She continues to talk. I overload the conveyor belt with my purchases and she continues to talk. I move my trolley in between the checkout operator and the people she is talking to and she continues to talk. I move my whole body between the "mouth is running overtime worker" and the "friends" and she continues to talk. I politely issue an "AHEM" and she continues to talk. I am heading for DEFCON 5 by now. I turn around to my children and spake thusly "Let's just walk out as it is obvious we are not going to be served" and start to walk off out of (insert big food conglomerate here) store. She then quickly says goodbye to her pals and turns to look at me that would make Medusa proud. Throwing my food into the bags also was a nice touch.

Case study 2 ..... In (inset large fishing tackle outlet here) buying my next lot of gear. Head to counter and was greeted by 2 assistants. This is nice I thought. Place product on counter and one of them starts to ring it up on cash register. The phone rings. The girl serving me answers it. It is for the other assistant. They then go into this massive detailed missive on how to transfer the phone from the register to the back office so the 2nd assistant can take the call in private. By this time a large line has formed. The 2nd assistant walks off. The cash register girl rings through my product. I hand her the money. The phone rings again. The 2nd assistant cannot retrieve the boyfriends call in the back office. The girl serving me goes into great detail as to how to take the call. The cash register is now closed and I do not have my change. She looks at me sweetly and says "You can go now" ....... I say "Not without my change". Guess who is the only authority in the whole store to open the till to retrieve my change? 

You guessed it ..... The girl in the back office talking to the boyfriend.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR at the **** standards we have in Australia. If any of my staff did anything like this it would be instant dismissal.


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## Julia (15 July 2011)

Totally unacceptable, TS.  So what did you do about it?
Did you immediately contact the manager of both these organisations and relate your experience?


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## trainspotter (15 July 2011)

Julia said:


> Totally unacceptable, TS.  So what did you do about it?
> Did you immediately contact the manager of both these organisations and relate your experience?




In a normal situation I would Julia. But in the first case I had my kids with me and did not want to drag them through a scene.

In the second instance due to the lineup of people who were glowering at me as if it was my fault I quickly exited and beelined to the carpark very unhappy.

I am not sure how much more of this rubbish service I am going to take before I do a Michael Douglas "Falling Down" situation and go postal worker on them.


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## Julia (15 July 2011)

trainspotter said:


> In a normal situation I would Julia. But in the first case I had my kids with me and did not want to drag them through a scene.
> 
> In the second instance due to the lineup of people who were glowering at me as if it was my fault I quickly exited and beelined to the carpark very unhappy.
> 
> I am not sure how much more of this rubbish service I am going to take before I do a Michael Douglas "Falling Down" situation and go postal worker on them.



I get the circumstances, but unless you contact the manager and tell him how his staff are behaving, nothing will change.

I had a similar instance recently when I went into a nationwide appliance etc store looking for new oven/grill.  The store was empty of any customers other than myself.
Two clerks were behind the cash desk, chatting.  I spent about ten minutes looking at the various displays, expecting someone to come and offer to help.  No one appeared
Went to the desk and asked for someone to assist me with info about ovens.
The two young women looked irritated at having their chat interrupted but tersely called out for a salesperson.  I waited.  And waited.  Said "has someone said they are on their way?".  The girl shrugged.
OK, enough.  I was thoroughly ***** off.  Went to the store across the road and found what I wanted.

Came home and rang the manager of Store No. 1.  He was horrified, especially in the light of the store having been dead quiet all day and business being really poor.
Said he wished I'd asked for him at the time.  Maybe.
My judgment was that he'd feel the woeful behaviour more if he heard about the actual lost sale later.

So, TS, I reckon you should phone the manager of both these places.  They want to know if their staff are letting them down and are genuinely grateful to you for the call.
Probably they'll offer you some special deal to return too.


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## trainspotter (15 July 2011)

Possible outome would be I would only end up chasing the manager around and around on the phone. My belief is this kind of rot starts from the head down. If they were any kind of "managers" they would not allow this situation to happen. Either by proper training or by having eyes and ears everywhere in the store, floor managers, aisle pushers, department heads, supervisors, team leaders and even the cripple in the wheelchair who meets and greets you as you enter the store has a vested interest in keeping the store open. 

EGAD ~!!!!!! I AM WILD about the sloppy service that passes as "trade".


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## Calliope (15 July 2011)

Retailers are blaming on-line shopping for some of their fall off in trade. The standards of service on eBay are very good. I buy all my electronic and computer stuff through eBay. I have never experienced substandard service, or lack of quality in items purchased.


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## Dash8 (15 July 2011)

I'd just like to share what I experienced during my first job, working in a Deli/fast food outlet in a major supermarket.

In June 2009 I started my first job working in a Deli at one of Australia's biggest supermarkets. I had absolutely no idea how bad it was going to be. On my first day, I was trained by a 15 year old and 17 year old. There was no adults in sight. As this was a Deli combined with a fast food outlet, we had meat slicers, deep fryers, lots of dangerous things. At times there was even 13 year olds working in there with no adult supervision.

The whole place was absolutely filthy. Its hard to explain just how shockingly dirty this deli was but I'll do my best. At any one time there was at least five flies hovering over the food. We found maggots all over the meat slicer literally 10 minutes after cutting meat for a customer. The supervisor told us the meat slicer hadn't been cleaned in months. We had deep fried chicken and burgers sitting in bain maries for 8 hours and were still forced to sell them. My supervisor warned me not to eat any of the chicken because it was three months out of date and they were still selling it. There was rotting meat under benches that hadn't been cleaned properly for two years. The deep fryers, used 10 hours a day, could be left without cleaning for months. I never ate anything from there because many people I knew had got food poisoning. 

The customers were mainly comprised of aboriginals who never took showers, did not wear shoes or underwear, could hardly speak English, begged for food, shouted at you if they had to wait and would order $150 worth of food and walk away while it was being prepared. I had to hold my breath while taking their orders because the smell was so overpowering I would start gagging. I know this sounds harsh but I'm just recounting exactly what happened.

Because we rarely had supervisors nearby, the 14 and 15 year olds I had to work with got away with anything. The racist ones would refuse to serve the aboriginals. They would muck around, talk to each other, play on their phones and have food fights while I had to deal with the angry customers.

The owners of the store bought deep fryers from Russia (god knows why...) and they were absolutely deadly. We had to drop pieces of chicken in them and dodge the splashes of boiling oil. Someone accidentally splashed boiling oil on me once and I sustained a huge burn to my arm. I nearly fainted from the pain and I still have a large scar. I didn't even get an apology....

At times I was holding back the tears as I served customers. The only thing that was keeping me there was the better than average pay.

Even through all this I still served customers with a smile, would always help them with an inquiry and did my absolute best to provide them with edible products given the conditions.

I quit last September and there is NO WAY I'm going to get another job in a fast food place in Australia. I haven't even mentioned half the stuff that went on in that supermarket, nor have I exaggerated anything.

Anyway, I do think that standards are slipping. I think I must of worked in the worst place in Australia and I still managed to provide friendly service. Some people need to try harder with their people skills, because they have no idea how good their job is compared to other peoples.....

Dash


P.S. Actually, I'm starting to think I should have reported this to a health adviser or maybe the supermarket's head office.


----------



## trainspotter (15 July 2011)

We have a winner here. Dash 8, what you say is credible according to you then I would certainly be going to the authorities on this matter. Do not past go and do not collect $200 on the way through. Go to Today Tonight ...... phone Derryn Hinch or similar, Ray Martin would come out of retirement for this kind of exclusive. 

This story has it all ..... filth, 13 year olds, aboriginals, maggots, out of date product, major supermarket, racism and salmonella.

*GOSH*


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## medicowallet (15 July 2011)

Logique said:


> My experience also. Doctors = great, but where do they find these medical centre staffers, and how do they train them. If at all. Unbelievably snooty.
> 
> In my local medical centre, it's been too much for some patients, who won't go back.




I just don't get people though, getting all snotty with the receptionist at the medical centre then sucking up to the doctor.

There really are genuine times when a doctor has an emergency to attend, and it is very difficult to catch up, and people truly understand this.

But for some, this happens far too often. In 5-10 years, there will be so many doctors pumping out of our medical schools, that this will change. We just have to wait.


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## tech/a (16 July 2011)

I offer all staff $ 100 for each un solicited letter from a client who mentions exceptional customer relations/ service.

I have at times accepted phone calls un solicited from clients directly -- who generally send of a letter for our testimonial folder.

More often than not I get letters of " blah blah your Team  blah blah etc.
The " team" involved get the $ 100 --- personal identification means that that person took extra special care of a clients needs.

I'm pleased to say I have handed out many $100s.
Yes I've had the odd complaint as well.


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## Logique (16 July 2011)

Calliope said:


> Retailers are blaming on-line shopping for some of their fall off in trade. The standards of service on eBay are very good. I buy all my electronic and computer stuff through eBay. I have never experienced substandard service, or lack of quality in items purchased.



Good point. I find the online shopping experience exceptional in comparison to in-store. So retailers need to wake up or lose business.


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## prawn_86 (16 July 2011)

There is no rule on this thread that certain companies cant be named.

My story of bad service is Strike Bowling Bar in Darling Harbour, Sydney. I rang up to book a lane for me and a few mates and was told as it is a Friday night we wanted we can only book online. I asked if the guy i was speaking to could do it for me while i was on the phone; "No sorry, different systems".

The major problem i have found in Sydney is the over-population, lack of amenities and poor infrastructure. In other cities like Adelaide of Cairns, where it is easier to travel around, and there are more of everything per capita, if you want to take your business elesewhere you can. Whereas in Syd everything is always so busy it has no effect on the bars etc if you go elsewhere as someone else will just fill you place.


----------



## trainspotter (20 November 2011)

WELL BUGGER ME !! I have noticed a very small uptick in the level of service I am receiving lately. Might try smiling in future ....... it seems to work so much better


----------



## Tyler Durden (20 November 2011)

Today I saw the reverse, where a customer was being rude.

I was waiting at Macca's for my food after having already ordered. I watched as this guy, probably in his 40's, ordered what he wanted. The girl serving him just asked him which meal he was referring to, and he grumpily said "that one, the one up there" pointing rudely towards the display.

She then asked him whether he'd like capuccino or coffee, and he said "forget it, just give me the muffin and hash brown", and visibly shook his head. I felt so sorry for the girl, she was only doing her job and this guy just seemed to be in a bad mood from something else.


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## Smurf1976 (20 November 2011)

prawn_86 said:


> There is no rule on this thread that certain companies cant be named.The major problem i have found in Sydney is the over-population, lack of amenities and poor infrastructure. In other cities like Adelaide of Cairns, where it is easier to travel around, and there are more of everything per capita, if you want to take your business elesewhere you can.



It works in both directions.

Sydney - More than enough people such that any one customer is irrelevant. If you leave, someone else will take your place.

Hobart - Lack of competition gives business the upper hand? Want a new Holden? There's only one Holden dealer in town. Same with every other car make. Likewise many other things - if you want a specific product then you have no choice of where to buy it from locally.

So Sydney (roughly 4 million people) is too big in that sense, whilst Hobart (0.2 million) is too small. That leaves somewhere in the middle and in my experience places such as Adelaide and Perth do much better in terms of service, likewise smaller (but not absolutely tiny) countries such as NZ.


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## Mrmagoo (20 November 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Is it just me or has the standards of service begun to slip further down the slope of GAF (Gives a F@ck) attitude? Let me explain further:-
> 
> *Supposedly quality restaurant:- * Waiter brings out food and instead of carrying plate from underneath has it in the pincer grip with his THUMB totally ruining my duck ala ronge. Then as the PiÃ¨ce de rÃ©sistance he reaches across me from the right hand side to serve the meal!!!!! Followed by filling my wine glass nearly to the brim and totally stuffing the bouquet of the Wolf Blass Black Label 1998, Jimmy Watson Trophy winning nectar of the Gods. Now this is the high end of the market place we are talking here.
> 
> ...




You're not paying for service. You're asking far too much.


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## young-gun (20 November 2011)

Mrmagoo said:


> You're not paying for service. You're asking far too much.




I disagree.. Service absolutely makes or breaks a dining experience for me.. And I'm not overly picky.. But If I was paying 80$ for a 100 gram steak then the waiter/waitress had better be doing a dance on the way over

Service is key to a successful business. MO. I've walked out of clothing stores before as I've waited for 15 minutes for someone to give me a hand after making it quite clear I required assistance. At the time I was buying my first suit for a wedding, if they can afford to lose 500$ sales due to poor service then good for them.


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## Julia (20 November 2011)

Mrmagoo said:


> You're not paying for service. You're asking far too much.



 What???   Retail, including restaurants etc, is nothing without good service.
You're talking about sales  people here.  The essence of a job in sales is to satisfy the customer's need.  That includes providing a decent level of service.

Just to clarify your position:  say you wanted to buy a used car.  Using your above criteria, you'd go to a car yard, observe the sales person hanging about in the office, and make  your selection, unassisted,  from a hundred cars?

You don't expect the salesperson to come over and ask if he can help in your selection?
You don't want him/her to offer you a test drive of the vehicle? 
etc etc.

If they have another branch and you don't like the colour of your chosen vehicle, wouldn't you quite reasonably expect to be offered that they will try that other branch in an attempt to help you?

What do you think is the job of a salesperson?


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## Mrmagoo (20 November 2011)

young-gun said:


> I disagree.. Service absolutely makes or breaks a dining experience for me.. And I'm not overly picky.. But If I was paying 80$ for a 100 gram steak then the waiter/waitress had better be doing a dance on the way over
> 
> Service is key to a successful business. MO. I've walked out of clothing stores before as I've waited for 15 minutes for someone to give me a hand after making it quite clear I required assistance. *At the time I was buying my first suit for a wedding, if they can afford to lose 500$ sales due to poor service then good for them.*




A $500 suit is a cheap suit.

All that stuff about customer service is just what they tell the lackeys. The business is about managing expectations and generating REVENUE. They can't care less how much you liked the waiter. 

If you were paying $100 for a steak it would still depend on how much they were paying the waiter as to if you got good service or not as it depends on how much that person wants to keep their job.

If the business can churn through customers due to image or reputation or whatever else, then I assure you they pay the waiters as little as possible as they know people will still come and the service levels will reflect that.

Over servicing when your person is being paid $17 is bad practice, because then people come to expect un-realistic levels of service and will be generally unhappy when this cannot be provided. I know this is the case because generally business put on a minimal level of staff to provide a basic level of service. This basically means someone to operate the register and take your money. 

Customer service training is basically to drum it into the heads of people earning low wages, who rightfully couldn't give a stuff, that rudeness to customers is not acceptable.

This is because most people generally don't know manners and will abuse hapless and helpless staff and the staff need to be taught not to retaliate to this.


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## Julia (20 November 2011)

Oh good lord, magoo, what a bitter and twisted philosophy.

And I disagree that most people lack good manners.  Perhaps it's different where you live, but every day I observe ordinary people being entirely pleasant to other ordinary people, regardless of who is serving whom.

But, with the attitude you're espousing, I wouldn't expect anyone to go out of their way to provide you with anything.  Hope you shop online rather than subject service people to your taciturn attitude.


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## Wysiwyg (20 November 2011)

Good and above good service is part of the job criteria for customer related occupations. If the employee fails to give respect and if requested, help or advice to customers, then they need to move on. The employee may also be a terrible actor and can't act out the falsity of niceness to all people.
Walking into a restaurant, store etc. with your head up your bum doesn't attract good service either.  It's all about what's going on in that circus 1 inch back from forehead.


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## Logique (21 November 2011)

It's about context, your expectations need to be realistic. Service staff are often junior, and often not paid very much. 

An effort to be pleasant works wonders, they see so many d---heads.

There's self checkouts at my local supermarket now, so I'll have to be rude to myself. If I'm very bad, I'll report myself to the manager.


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## young-gun (21 November 2011)

Mrmagoo said:


> A $500 suit is a cheap suit.
> 
> All that stuff about customer service is just what they tell the lackeys. The business is about managing expectations and generating REVENUE. They can't care less how much you liked the waiter.
> 
> ...




im blown away by everything you just said. and not in a good way at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbtsfyrEF_c

the above video link is about a fish market in seattle. i can assure you these guys arent making much more than minimum wage - if that, and yet look at their service. this isnt directed at you by any means magoo..u are a lost cause, and will no doubt whinge that people are throwing your fish before they pack it.

this fish market is nothing special. they sell the same fish as everyone else, and there is numerous fish markets close by, and yet this place turns over about 10 times more $$ than any other fish market in seattle. these guys are just having fun, and enjoying what they do. take a look at the amount of people that are stopping to watch what is going on. people from all over the world talk about this fish market, and have incorporated it into travel plans. i personally think its brilliant. the energy and atmosphere it creates makes people feel good, and spend money of course.

no matter how much ur getting paid, no matter what ur doing, a smile and good service is not a hard thing to achieve. I was a waiter in high school making 13$ an hour, and i took much pride in my ability to be a good waiter, and achieving high levels of service. 

I made almost double my hourly rate in tips on average, and as im sure ur aware tipping is most definitely not seen as a necessity here in australia, especially not in middle class restaurants.

customer service is paramount.


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## Smurf1976 (21 November 2011)

Mrmagoo said:


> All that stuff about customer service is just what they tell the lackeys. The business is about managing expectations and generating REVENUE. They can't care less how much you liked the waiter.



Dealt with others like that before. Made a relative fortune at their expense...


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## Mrmagoo (21 November 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> Dealt with others like that before. Made a relative fortune at their expense...




I've never heard of a sales job where making sales was not the main goal.

Customer service was used as a standard, but at the end of the day if you don't make sales, you get fired.

Likewise on the retail shop floor I've never heard of someone becoming the favourite just because they were polite, it is your ability to move stock which gets you noticed and management do notice those who and do not sell. 

Upselling is usually a big part of the role as is knowing your customer and who it is appropriate to upsell too. 

Unless you're literally just facilitating the flow of cash, such as working on cash register and even then some people are still expected to upsell - and it is more of a general common sense politeness approach (as I explained in my intial post) that they reach to socially ackward young adults.


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## Julia (21 November 2011)

young-gun said:


> im blown away by everything you just said. and not in a good way at all.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbtsfyrEF_c
> 
> ...



Great post, young gun.  "People buy from people they like" is about the best maxim I've ever come across with respect to sales.



Mrmagoo said:


> I've never heard of a sales job where making sales was not the main goal.



And why do you think some people can close the sale and others can't?
Note the maxim above.
Most people choose not to interact in any sphere with others whom they perceive are not genuinely interested in satisfying their needs.  Why should they?  There are plenty of other sales outlets where the belief in genuine service is an absolute given.

Yes, of course the objective for any salesperson is to generate sales.
But, magoo, how do you think this process actually happens???
I can tell you it does not happen via a salesperson who has no skills in constructive listening for a start.  If you are not prepared to listen and understand a customer's need, then you are in no position to satisfy that need.

Hope you never need to seek a job in sales.  Sadly, you'd be the most dismal failure.


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## Smurf1976 (21 November 2011)

Mrmagoo said:


> I've never heard of a sales job where making sales was not the main goal.
> 
> Customer service was used as a standard, but at the end of the day if you don't make sales, you get fired.



And that is precisely why customer service is important. 

Lack of service = customer goes elsewhere = lack of sales = fired.


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## sptrawler (21 November 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> It works in both directions.
> 
> Sydney - More than enough people such that any one customer is irrelevant. If you leave, someone else will take your place.
> 
> ...




Well smurph, I recently stayed three days in Sydney before catching a cruise.
Must say the food prices were half the price of Perth and near where I was staying, the best Pad Kapow outside of Thailand only $6.00.


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## Smurf1976 (22 November 2011)

sptrawler said:


> Well smurph, I recently stayed three days in Sydney before catching a cruise.
> Must say the food prices were half the price of Perth and near where I was staying, the best Pad Kapow outside of Thailand only $6.00.



No doubting that you'll get a good price in a big city, it's just the service that is sometimes an issue.


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## awg (22 November 2011)

trainspotter said:


> WELL BUGGER ME !! I have noticed a very small uptick in the level of service I am receiving lately. Might try smiling in future ....... it seems to work so much better




Maybe you are freshly emboldened by this thread ?

Reading some of the previous posts, I must say it seemed you accepted poor service with unexpected meekness, for a poster with such panache:


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## trainspotter (22 November 2011)

awg said:


> Maybe you are freshly emboldened by this thread ?
> 
> Reading some of the previous posts, I must say it seemed you accepted poor service with unexpected meekness, for a poster with such panache:




Thanks awg ....... The poor service I received was due to my perception of the situation. I should have realised that it is "TRAINING" that makes for quality staff and not criticism of the hired help. Management should have a certain level of "panache" to make the pleasantries of purchasing product a more popular pastime. 

My staff are very good at their jobs


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## kimcasablancas (24 November 2011)

Surfer35 said:


> I couldn't agree more. The mistake I have made is living in Japan for too long.Once you have done that you can't come back and tolerate
> australian concepts of "service". And it's got nothing to do with how much we are paid, we just don't get it as our complete lack of refinement and willingness to admit we are deficient precludes us from improving.




If you go the other way and spend considerable amounts of time in Europe it'll go the other way. Service in Australia is amazing by comparison.


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## trainspotter (24 November 2011)

Service standards in certain parts of Indonesia are very nice this time of year. Batam which is just 2 hours by high speed ferry from Slingapore is a must.


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## netfleet (24 November 2011)

kimcasablancas said:


> If you go the other way and spend considerable amounts of time in Europe it'll go the other way. Service in Australia is amazing by comparison.




I'm not sure I would agree with that.


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## Julia (26 November 2011)

It's not all bad.  Encountered a really patient and helpful person at Officeworks yesterday.  I'm technologically stupid so appreciated not being made to feel even more so by a dismissive attitude.

And while I was waiting, he was treating a high school boy with the same respect and helpfulness.

A bit off topic but worth recording:  I have a 15 year old relative who is profoundly deaf, i.e. no hearing and no speech.  His mother has instilled in him that his disability is no excuse for not taking responsibility and she suggested it was time he found an after school job.

The kid goes off to the Deaf Institute and asks for an interpreter to come with him in cold calling businesses to see if he can get said job.  They make several unsuccessful calls, but then the owner of an ice cream shop liked the kid's determination and he now has a job there.  So far all is going very well.  

Kudos to that shop owner.


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## Tink (26 November 2011)

That's a lovely story Julia, all the best to your relative.
Too bad you cant share the name of the ice cream shop, they deserve the publicity
Well done : )


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## Mrmagoo (27 November 2011)

Tyler Durden said:


> Today I saw the reverse, where a customer was being rude.
> 
> I was waiting at Macca's for my food after having already ordered. I watched as this guy, probably in his 40's, ordered what he wanted. The girl serving him just asked him which meal he was referring to, and he grumpily said "that one, the one up there" pointing rudely towards the display.
> 
> She then asked him whether he'd like capuccino or coffee, and he said "forget it, just give me the muffin and hash brown", and visibly shook his head. I felt so sorry for the girl, she was only doing her job and this guy just seemed to be in a bad mood from something else.




Honestly I'd love to see some of these old complainers last just one shift at a busy maccas in a bad area. Or go through grad recruitment... or heck, just try and apply for your licence. 

Cut service staff some slack, they're mostly young people who are growing up into one heck of a messed up soceity. 

I am 100% glad I am not starting out now... . .. I'd like to see how some of these old complainers would go as an 18 year old in todays world... 

I'd LOVE to see their service standards after the 10th or so abusive custoemr 

Heck, lets see YOU sit infront of a beeping computer and answer phone calls from angry people who start out abusive for 9 hours.


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## kimcasablancas (29 November 2011)

netfleet said:


> I'm not sure I would agree with that.




Where were you? I've been to France, Germany and the Netherlands numerous times and it's totally terrible.
Eastern Europe is also not really great.


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## Glen48 (30 November 2011)

I contacted CASA to find out if a person was a pilot or not they told me they can't disclose that type of information , so you fly with the person if the plane takes off and lands ok he is a pilot if not he wasn't.
They did tell me the license number is 6 digits only which is some help.
 Wonder if it the same with DR. electricians, etc?


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## Smurf1976 (30 November 2011)

Electrical license has 6 digits and is a credit card sized card that looks exactly like a driver's license complete with photo. 

At least that's how it works here in Tasmania.


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## trainspotter (6 December 2011)

My jewellery shop has had the best 6 months since I opened 3 years ago. As I am a benevolent boss I am taking my staff to Bali for their Christmas bonus. The standards of service they provide is of a first class nature and it is starting to pay off for me and also for them.


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## Tyler Durden (18 February 2012)

One thing that annoys me from time to time is this:

You walk into a fast food restaurant and there are two counters open, but people have formed one line between the two counters, instead of having two lines for each counter. When I am next to be served, a third counter will open up, and someone from behind or someone who has just come in will get to the third counter to be served even though I am next in line.

There's no difference between that and cutting in IMO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 February 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> One thing that annoys me from time to time is this:
> 
> You walk into a fast food restaurant and there are two counters open, but people have formed one line between the two counters, instead of having two lines for each counter. When I am next to be served, a third counter will open up, and someone from behind or someone who has just come in will get to the third counter to be served even though I am next in line.
> 
> There's no difference between that and cutting in IMO.



I personally think it's ridiculous that people form one line for two counters in the first place. 20 years ago that _never_ happened but now it seems to have become the accepted practice. Two counters so form two lines. Three counters form three lines. Etc.


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## wayneL (18 February 2012)

kimcasablancas said:


> Where were you? I've been to France, Germany and the Netherlands numerous times and it's totally terrible.
> Eastern Europe is also not really great.




We found Germany (Bavaria specifically) had amazing service, totally overwhelmed by how good it was.

The only so-so experience was the dirty look we got at the hotel we stayed at because we didn't know what a _tischfaulen_ was for.

We even found England, though patchy, was outstanding at a lot of places.


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## bellenuit (18 February 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I personally think it's ridiculous that people form one line for two counters in the first place. 20 years ago that _never_ happened but now it seems to have become the accepted practice. Two counters so form two lines. Three counters form three lines. Etc.




When it is unregulated, I agree. But I much prefer the modern day practice at airport check ins and most banks where you have just one queue and whoever is top of the queue goes to the first available clerk. Nothing worse than being behind someone who is missing half their documents and you must wait while those who arrived long after you are being processed on the other queues.


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## trainspotter (19 February 2012)

Took six bottles of wine into Denpasar airport. Official told me to tip 2 out. I asked him "Berapa harga ini?" ....... he said "Fifty" ........ I thought he meant Rupiah !! LOLOL ......... A pineapple later and I walked straight through Customs. Now that is SERVICE !!


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## pixel (19 February 2012)

wayneL said:


> We found Germany (Bavaria specifically) had amazing service, totally overwhelmed by how good it was.
> 
> The only so-so experience was the dirty look we got at the hotel we stayed at because *we didn't know what a tischfaulen was for.*



 My wife was born in Bavaria. But she doesn't know either. Care to "Please explain?" 
tisch = table
faulen = to soil or spoil
But the combination doesn't ring any bell...


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## wayneL (19 February 2012)

pixel said:


> My wife was born in Bavaria. But she doesn't know either. Care to "Please explain?"
> tisch = table
> faulen = to soil or spoil
> But the combination doesn't ring any bell...




It was a ceramic sort of bin in the middle of the table, to put rubbish (eg the used little butter containers etc) in.


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## pixel (19 February 2012)

wayneL said:


> It was a ceramic sort of bin in the middle of the table, to put rubbish (eg the used little butter containers etc) in.



Thanks Wayne;

"Ahh", or "D'Oh" as Homer would say.
Yes, I know the ones. Like mini rubbish bins, often with a flip lid. 
Never heard them referred to as "Tischfaulen" though. (But Bavarians are quite a peculiar lot, with their own language and customs  )


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## Smurf1976 (19 February 2012)

bellenuit said:


> When it is unregulated, I agree. But I much prefer the modern day practice at airport check ins and most banks where you have just one queue and whoever is top of the queue goes to the first available clerk. Nothing worse than being behind someone who is missing half their documents and you must wait while those who arrived long after you are being processed on the other queues.



Agreed in the case of an airport. But at McDonald's etc the real issue I see is that probably every second time I go there (which admittedly isn't very often) I end up standing behind someone who has no intention of actually buying anything. They're just standing there. 

Maybe there's some secret code that I've missed. But you stand in line, people slowly move forward. Then you find that there's a two or three people standing in front of you who are now at the front of the queue but who aren't going to move forward and buy something. Then you find there's another queue formed beside the one I was in. Then you get a strange look for jumping to the front of that queue.

All seems a bit weird to me. I just don't understand why anyone would be in a queue if they didn't want to buy something but I've seen it happen quite a few times now so it's not an isolated incident. One point - it's _always_ women 15 - 25 who seem to do this.


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## trainspotter (30 October 2013)

Recently returned from Bali and had flown Jetstar. APEC was in full swing and my flights got bumped 5 times til they decided to fly me out on a 3.15am a day later then anticipated. Completely missed my connecting flight back home on another carrier but had already changed this booking so no problem there. Jetstar sent me $200 worth of flight vouchers and $400 worth of accommodation redemption. Gotta be happy with that !

Unfortunately the airport was "closed" and I assumed this meant they had shut the runways down to allow for John Kerry and fellow dignitaries of state to land their private jets etc. NUP ... airport shutdown meant exactly that !! No duty free, no shops or kiosks open, no bars to drink at and NO ONE around ... not even security ??? 3 hours of sitting on the tiles waiting for an announcement that the flight will be leaving at gate "whatever" as NONE of the departure screens were working either. I asked the flight attendant as to why and the response was "Entalah .. bandara tutup!" which translates to "I don't know ... airport closed!"


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## McLovin (30 October 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Jetstar sent me $200 worth of flight vouchers




Presumably, they must be used on Deathstar? Sounds like quite the Pyrrhic victory.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2013)

Tyler Durden said:


> One thing that annoys me from time to time is this:
> 
> You walk into a fast food restaurant and there are two counters open, but people have formed one line between the two counters, instead of having two lines for each counter. When I am next to be served, a third counter will open up, and someone from behind or someone who has just come in will get to the third counter to be served even though I am next in line.
> 
> There's no difference between that and cutting in IMO.




I was purchasing take away at a restaurant when the phone rang, the lady behind the counter said could I wait a minute, then took a huge order.
Well I had to wait an extended time as the previous order was being made.
I vowed to myself, the next time that happens, I will say "you were serving me, why can't the caller wait"?
Then I will walk out.


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## Tyler Durden (30 October 2013)

sptrawler said:


> I was purchasing take away at a restaurant when the phone rang, the lady behind the counter said could I wait a minute, then took a huge order.
> Well I had to wait an extended time as the previous order was being made.
> I vowed to myself, the next time that happens, I will say "you were serving me, why can't the caller wait"?
> Then I will walk out.




Funny thing is, if your phone rang and you answered it, you'd be the rude one.

A while ago there were a flurry of news articles about how shops considered it rude that customers were on their phones whilst they made an order. I've never done that myself, but I don't see what the big deal is. I've been on the other end, where, like you, I was being served and then the employee decides to answer the phone. I don't have a problem with it, but just think it's somewhat hypocritical that they call the customers out for it but do it themselves.

You could argue that they have to answer their phone because they're a business and they don't want to lose money, but 1) they've probably lost your business by snubbing you and 2) I could well be on an important call as well.


----------



## Tyler Durden (30 October 2013)

Just read some older posts in this thread about McDonald's which reminded me of my latest whinge with them...

A lot of the McDonald's restaurants nowadays serve you by 1) taking your order; 2) taking your cash; 3) shoving you a receipt; and 4) telling you to step aside and wait for your food while they take the money off the next chump. In the past, you would place an order, pay for it, and wait for the person who took your order and money to get you your food.

There are two things I don't like about the 'new' way:

1) they treat you like a robot or you're some sort of input into a machine. The whole experience is one cold process. You walk in, hand over your cash, and then "screw you, you can wait for however long your food will take". There is just something a bit off about handing over money and then being told to step aside for the next person. Kinda like "you're important to us until you hand over your money, but once we have it, the next person is more important, so get out of the way".

2) It really is a machine. There was a period of time where I'd go to Macca's everyday weekday for breakfast before work. I'd be served by the same one or two persons. And every single damn time, they'd act like a robot: "here's your receipt, please step to the left, and wait for your number on the screen". 

Ummm...it's not my first time visiting a McDonald's...I WAS HERE YESTERDAY!! I KNOW THE DRILL!!! How about putting some 'human' into the experience?!?! 

Also, don't get me started on the price of a piece of potato (hash brown) but that's another story for another day.


----------



## trainspotter (31 October 2013)

I failed mind reading at school. 

I love it when a customer phones up and says "I was in your shop last week and I want to place the order" UMMMMMMMMMM which order and who are you is the response, "I'm the lady that wanted to buy the (insert product here) and my name is Michelle" AAHHHHHHHHHHHH OK Michelle did the sales staff tell you a price and do we have it in stock? "I can't remember the price but the girl that served me had black hair" EEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH they all have black hair Michelle "Oh she was very helpful and was wearing a pink top" OHHHHHHHHHHHH that is lovely Michelle but can you remember what size the (insert product here) was? "No" ...

So I then go through the list of the product she wants in the sizes that she thinks she needs and advise her of a price and let her know a delivery time. "That is not what the girl told me" CRUMBS !! 30 seconds ago you could not even remember the price or the size but now you are telling me verbatim what my sales staff told you a week ago !!


----------



## McLovin (31 October 2013)

Tyler Durden said:


> A lot of the McDonald's restaurants nowadays serve you by 1) taking your order; 2) taking your cash; 3) shoving you a receipt; and 4) telling you to step aside and wait for your food while they take the money off the next chump. In the past, you would place an order, pay for it, and wait for the person who took your order and money to get you your food.
> 
> There are two things I don't like about the 'new' way:
> 
> ...




You turn up every day, even though you don't like the way they treat you, and you expect them to change?


----------



## burglar (31 October 2013)

McLovin said:


> You turn up every day, even though you don't like the way they treat you, and you expect them to change?



I met a devil woman, she took my heart away
She said I had it comin' to me, but I wanted it that way
I think that any love is good McLovin'
And so I took what I could get, mmm
Oooh, oooh, she looked at me with big brown eyes
And said

"You ain't seen nothin' yet
B-B-B-Baby, you just ain't seen nothin' yet
Here's something that you never gonna forget
B-B-B-Baby, you just ain't seen nothin' yet"


----------



## McLovin (31 October 2013)

burglar said:


> I met a devil woman, she took my heart away
> She said I had it comin' to me, but I wanted it that way
> I think that any love is good McLovin'
> And so I took what I could get, mmm
> ...






It reminded me of the guy with Korean girlfriend from last week.


----------



## trainspotter (22 July 2015)

Stayed at the Quest Apartments at Brekky Creek in Brizvegas last week. $200 for a one bedroom apartment was pricey I thought but the $300 BOND was the killer. As it was a last minute accommodation booking and I had to return the hire car into the Valley I was running out of options. Room booked and BOND paid for. I inquired when do I get my BOND money back (thinking they would swipe my cc and the money would go back in the next day) 

Wait for it ....

"10 working days Sir!" and by this time the money had GONE from my cc and the booking was completed. Will not be staying in a Quest again no matter how convenient it is.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2015)

Getting a $300k extension on the house, I can tell you, I used a 'well established years of experience company'.

My experience is, don't bother, they farmed out the work to the cheapest subies and quality control was non existent.

If I did it again, which I won't, I would use a smaller builder who had a supervisor that attended site often.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Getting a $300k extension on the house, I can tell you, I used a 'well established years of experience company'.
> 
> My experience is, don't bother, they farmed out the work to the cheapest subies and quality control was non existent.
> 
> If I did it again, which I won't, I would use a smaller builder who had a supervisor that attended site often.




I am building a new house, nearly 600K, and my builder only does about three houses at a time. He is local and we know the family. I am just so pleased with his work and the subcontractors and staff he uses. He has only used good quality and has made some improvements to the design, mostly at no cost to me, to ensure that the finished result is excellent. e.g. where the Evap duct goes down to the ground floor, he put in a second bulkhead on the opposite side of the room to make the whole room appear balanced - cost to me? $0

Stairs are going in next week and tiling starting soon. Can't wait to move in.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> If I did it again, which I won't, I would use a smaller builder who had a supervisor that attended site often.




Just a warning. 
I was on a job today and saw a very shoddy carpentry, bricklaying and concrete job. It was right up there in the top ten of bad quality.
 Apparently guys can get there qualifications without going through the apprenticeship route. And wow it really shows. I'm getting a lot of repair jobs that are costing the owners a lot more on top.

A lot of the time one tradie stuffs up his work, then the others just leave it and try and patch over it. By the time the plasterer is swearing... its too late. Good builders spot it early and rectify before it becomes a problem.

There are a lot of shonks out there at the moment I wouldn't let put up a tent.


----------



## trainspotter (10 November 2015)

World has gone mad scenario 1) 

My son is eligible to get his L permit to drive a car. Off we go to the RTA with PASSPORT, student card, bank account details, letter from school with photo ID, Medicare card, birth certificate, latest school report and a plethora of other identification in hand. They photocopy all of it and take my $96.00. He fails his L permit. We go back to the RTA 3 days later with ALL the same paperwork which they photocopy again and I try to explaining to them they already have this information to no avail and they charge me another $12.90. He fails his L permit for the 2nd time. 7 days later we go back to the RTA and they ask for ALL his identification AGAIN and. Ermmmm you have all of this on file already as we have been her twice and you have photocopied it twice and I have a Medicare card here with his name on it and a school report and if you get out the bits of paper you have photocopied you will see by the photos that it is actually him. NOPE !!! So back home we go to get the evidential proof and back to the RTA who then advise me he cannot sit the test as they are shutting the computers down in 15 minutes and to come back tomorrow. I get him out of school the next day at 2.00pm and take him to the RTA with ALL the proof AGAIN and they say ... "Oh no we only need a primary and secondary proof like a Medicare card and a school report" He sits the test in less than 10 minutes. 

*Son passes "L" permit on the 3rd attempt with Dad fuming*.

World has gone mad scenario 2) 

My nephew dies of a heart attack at the age of 41 with 3 beautiful kids living with him all under the age of 18. My sister is the executor of the will and custodian of the kids. She goes to the post office and evidences a proof of death certificate to the postmaster and asks if the mail can be redirected to her address as the kids are now living with her and their father is dead as per certificates supplied. Postmaster says sign this form and he will take care of it for her. Too easy.

Australia post sends out letters to the children asking them their permission to redirect the mail to my sisters address and to sign a very complicated form as to why they want this to happen. Sister organises this and gets a  17 & 12 year old boy & 15 year old girl to sign the papers etc. No biggy she says ... protocol. The next day she receives a letter addressed to her dead son asking him to sign the same complicated form to readdress his mail to her address 

*Really ... a letter to a dead man?*

World has gone mad scenario 3)

Father passed away this year. He was 86 years of age. We as a family paid for his burial plot 20 odd years ago as he was very adamant as to where he wanted to be buried. We paid $100 for the plot of land. Buried Dad with the minimal of fuss and life goes on. Local Shire sends us a bill for $9,900 for the burial plot. After inquiring as to WHY are we being charged this they said the $100 was only a deposit on the site. We explained that 20 years ago the plot was $100 and not $10,000 and it has been paid in FULL. "I will look into this" ... says the local Shire. In the meantime they send us a reminder invoice that the money is outstanding. We then send them a copy of the original certificate from 1994 proving that is what it was worth back then as the cemetery was only just starting up and not popular for dead people wanting to get in on the action. They send us a FINAL DEMAND letter saying we owe them the money and meanwhile the old boy is pushing up daisies. Like what are they going to do? Dig him up and hand him back?? So once again we explain and send proof of what is going on and FINALLY they agree for an admin fee of $400 they will get their books in order to reflect what actually happened.  

*Things change in 20 years of real estate even for dead people !*


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2015)

I went with my wife, to the Regal Theatre in Subiaco, Perth (to watch David Cambell).

We pulled into the parking area behind the theatre, went to the parking ticket machine and it wasn't working.

Walked over to the attendant and explained the problem, he came over and checked the machine, found it faulty.

I asked if I could pay, and have him write out a ticket for us, he said it wasn't necessary and not to worry about it.

When we came out of the show and returned to the car, there was a ticket on it.

After contacting the company ( W-------n P------g) they said tough.


----------



## trainspotter (11 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I went with my wife, to the Regal Theatre in Subiaco, Perth (to watch David Cambell).
> 
> We pulled into the parking area behind the theatre, went to the parking ticket machine and it wasn't working.
> 
> ...




Yep ... standards are slipping !!


----------



## Tisme (12 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I went with my wife, to the Regal Theatre in Subiaco, Perth (to watch David Cambell).
> 
> We pulled into the parking area behind the theatre, went to the parking ticket machine and it wasn't working.
> 
> ...




Facebook it and whip up social mania. Has worked for me on many occasions.


----------



## Tisme (13 November 2015)

Novel approach to store security:


----------



## trainspotter (8 August 2016)

New restaurant in town open 7 days a week from 7.00am til late. Minimal pickings on the menu but reasonable price for what you are getting. We go there on a Sunday morning for breakfast and are seated and a menu thrust into our hands and a bottle of water put on the table. Off she went.

We waited ,,, and waited ,,, and waited, I watched the 3 staff wandering around playing chasy amongst the diners. They were not taking orders nor were they cleaning the service dishes away. Occasionally they would seat another group of diners at the empty tables. One lady making coffee was serving and retrieving the coffee mugs rather than the staff clearing. We waited some more. It was not busy with maybe 20 people in the restaurant.

We waited some more. I smiled at one of the staff playing chasy ... she smiled back and walked straight past me with her empty serving tray. Now I am with a group of people and the menu looked about $25 a head for bacon and eggs with coffee so potential income of $175 for brekky. We waited some more.

I got to 27 minutes and we had not been acknowledged nor served nor "I will take your order soon Sir".

So we left. We walked down the road and had a full English breakfast for $10.50 with a free coffee at another cafe and were served the moment we walked through the door. The place was packed.

Yep ... standards are slipping alright


----------



## basilio (8 August 2016)

Brilliant response TS !


----------



## sval62 (8 August 2016)

basilio said:


> Brilliant response TS !




What a load of crap,he lifted the photo off the net.
Just proves he likes to stretch the truth a bit.


----------



## trainspotter (8 August 2016)

sval62 said:


> What a load of crap,he lifted the photo off the net.
> Just proves he likes to stretch the truth a bit.




Yes the photo is off the net sval62. It was done for emphasis. Instead of defiling the table with the tomato sauce .. we walked out instead and kept our dignity. 

I did screw the sugar scoop lid off to the tipping point so the next person who uses it will have a VERY large diabetes problem in their coffee.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Yes the photo is off the net sval62. It was done for emphasis. Instead of defiling the table with the tomato sauce .. we walked out instead and kept our dignity.
> 
> I did screw the sugar scoop lid off to the tipping point so the next person who uses it will have a VERY large diabetes problem in their coffee.




Do you have a Coffee Club franchise near you ? Ours has great service and reasonable prices if a limited menu.


----------



## qldfrog (9 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> I did screw the sugar scoop lid off to the tipping point so the next person who uses it will have a VERY large diabetes problem in their coffee.



Unless you are joking, you are lucky the previous customer did not have the same attitude or your trouser could be in dry cleaning with ketchup/mustard painting or similar bright idea;
In cases like this i do not rant on the web but go to the counter and tell it straight then leave.
The manager of this joint may still have no clue as to the situation if you just leave.
my 2c and different background/different attitude i suppose...


----------



## trainspotter (9 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you have a Coffee Club franchise near you ? Ours has great service and reasonable prices if a limited menu.




Yes we have several franchised "fast food" cafe's that provide pretty good service. I was trying to support a fledgling business. If this is their standard then the business will not be alive for much longer.



qldfrog said:


> Unless you are joking, you are lucky the previous customer did not have the same attitude or your trouser could be in dry cleaning with ketchup/mustard painting or similar bright idea;
> In cases like this i do not rant on the web but go to the counter and tell it straight then leave.
> The manager of this joint may still have no clue as to the situation if you just leave.
> my 2c and different background/different attitude i suppose...




No I was not joking. I always check the condiments on the table for their veracity to perform without spillage, just in case someone else has the same mind set. The manager was watching our table from behind the bar area and the owner was making the coffees so unless they are completely blind (pretty sure they are not) as they both smiled at me when I made eye contact, then they should not be in the hospitality industry.

Neither of them came up to us as we were leaving to ask as to WHY?

I phoned a friend of mine in the catering industry in the same city and explained to him what happened. He said we were lucky as friends of his went there and waited 2 hours for their main meal. When it still had not turned up they made their exit only to be stopped at the lift and told their dinners were ready and please be seated. SO they did. All the meals were wrong and some were cold.

So what I am getting at is to EMPHASISE that if you are going to go into a SERVICE industry you had better well be ready to PROVIDE a service.

THIS PHOTO WAS LIFTED OFF THE NET FOR COMEDY PURPOSES ONLY (and for sval62 comprehension)


----------



## basilio (9 August 2016)

Well that was a shame... And I thought that TS was showing unusual spunk and determination.  Should I have been so quick to give you a tick up ?


----------



## trainspotter (9 August 2016)

basilio said:


> Well that was a shame... And I thought that TS was showing unusual spunk and determination.  Should I have been so quick to give you a tick up ?




There is one thing to deface peoples private property in a deliberate fashion and then there is the art of subterfuge to make it look accidental basilio.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> So what I am getting at is to EMPHASISE that if you are going to go into a SERVICE industry you had better well be ready to PROVIDE a service.
> 
> THIS PHOTO WAS LIFTED OFF THE NET FOR COMEDY PURPOSES ONLY (and for sval62 comprehension)
> 
> View attachment 67668




I went out for lunch on Sunday.  It'd been a while since we'd been there, but here are the new changes:

- No you can't use our toilet, but there's one across the road (a public toilet!).  Unreal.  Not only is that against the law, but if they think anyone is going to accept that they are mad.

- Come up to the cashier to place your order.  No table service.  That doesn't sit well when the prices are fairly hefty already.

- Menu consisted of an extraordinary number of minced beef variations.  Was Aldi having a bulk sale on mince?  **** a brick.

- A peek into the kitchen revealed a staff member putting salad onto a dish from a plastic supermarket bag... with her hands.  So they don't have fresh salad, and they handle it before you get to eat it.

- Not a single staff memeber over about 20 yo.  So where's the owner?  The owner is in for a rude shock.  I give them about 6 months at best before they go down the gurgler.

- Coffee was good, that's about it.  See ya later... NOT.


----------



## basilio (9 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> There is one thing to deface peoples private property in a deliberate fashion and then there is the art of subterfuge to make it look accidental basilio.




I think  leaving a message with tomato sauce is not defacing private property. It washes off ok. 
Unscrewing salt shakers etc..  Sort of see that as  "funnY" teenage xhit.

But not really.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 August 2016)

Driving past Pizza hut the other day.  They are offering a Brazilian pizza to celebrate the Rio Olympics.

I was wondering how it would be different to their usual offering.  No hairs on it?


----------



## CanOz (9 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Driving past Pizza hut the other day.  They are offering a Brazilian pizza to celebrate the Rio Olympics.
> 
> I was wondering how it would be different to their usual offering.  No hairs on it?


----------



## wayneL (9 August 2016)

basilio said:


> I think  leaving a message with tomato sauce is not defacing private property. It washes off ok.
> Unscrewing salt shakers etc..  Sort of see that as  "funnY" teenage xhit.
> 
> But not really.




You should be offended and demand an apology bas


----------



## trainspotter (9 September 2016)

Tried for 3 weeks to update the Mrs Trainspotters details on MyGov website to no avail. Had the privilege to enter into the Centrelink/Medibank department to try and sort out. Lovely lady asked what the issue was. We explained we are trying to update Mrs Trainspotters details on the website for tax purposes and the computer says NO! She then refers us to sit down in front of "their" computers and see if it can be resolved  #1

We log in and get to the page where the glitch is and the same thing happens. We try and get the lovely ladys attention to show her what is going on. "Oh no that is not my job, I will need to get someone else to help you, but the IT people are all on a break so can you come back in an  hour or so?"  #2

We come back and a "NEW" lovely lady is at the front counter. We explain to her what has happened and that we have tried the computers and we would like to speak to a human to sort out. She then refers us to sit down in front of "their" computers and see if it can be resolved.  #3

Repeat  #2

Back to the counter and speak to lovely lady about the glitch. The computer is asking for the names of non existent children we do not have. In all seriousness she looks at Mrs Trainspotter and asks "DO you have any children that you do not know about?"  #4

We walked out ...


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2016)

trainspotter said:


> We walked out ...




The hospitals are no better. I've had to tour through a few the past year and all I can say is- no wonder people are dying in them. Absolutely disgusting attitudes and service coupled with a complete lack of knowledge of how to actually do anything. And that's not including wait times, which are understandable.
There are a few absolute gems mixed in though who deserve more praise then they are getting


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 September 2016)

moXJO said:


> Absolutely disgusting attitudes and service coupled with a complete lack of knowledge of how to actually do anything.




Australia is seriously undervaluing technical knowledge, and by that I mean any "how to do it" things in any field not just the things people normally associate as "technical", and it's not going to do us any good in the long term.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 September 2016)

trainspotter said:


> We walked out ...




Post of the year I reckon.

Would be funnier if it wasn't so sad.


----------



## luutzu (9 September 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Australia is seriously undervaluing technical knowledge, and by that I mean any "how to do it" things in any field not just the things people normally associate as "technical", and it's not going to do us any good in the long term.




It's plug-n-play generation.

maybe it's just rich nations in general but we're breeding too many specialists. People are trained to do just one thing, get the money from that and hire "the experts" for everything else.

Want a fence put up? Hire the fencing guy; Want a garden? Get landscape artists.

A bit of specialisation is all good, but some self-reliance keep that grey matter and skill sets up a bit. Also good for when a robots or Asians and Indians replaces your specialty too.


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> Want a fence put up? Hire the fencing guy; Want a garden? Get landscape artists.
> .




It comes back to education in this country. It is near on impossible to learn new skills. Tafe turned me away from learning other skills without an apprenticeship. In my opinion, learning other areas would have given me a better understanding of my own trade. I also like learning new skills. In the end I just learned bits and pieces from books and other guys in the trades. Takes a long time and a scatter$hit approach to standards.

On the other side of the coin: There are a lot of guys that have no clue in the building game. I've seen some monumental stuff ups, from not following what should be a simple process.  

Knowing and having a base understanding of all aspects of and also those areas around your job. Give you a lot more depth and ability.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 September 2016)

moXJO said:


> Knowing and having a base understanding of all aspects of and also those areas around your job. Give you a lot more depth and ability.




Very true. Pays well too.


----------



## qldfrog (29 September 2016)

Rant of the day:
9AM on the east coast , midweek: ATO online site is down for "scheduled maintenance"
ATO: STOP telling us crap;
you either have another of your weekly system F.U. or a whole division has to be sacked if you do "maintenance schedule in the middle of the working week during business hours
No access to your tax statement, ability to pay your tax debt, etc, etc etc
An organisation which is a prime example of incompetence AND arrogance following my experience in the last couple of year;
Is it just me or are they becoming worse and worse?
_*rant over *_


----------



## Wysiwyg (29 September 2016)

Is this country being swamped by inferior products? Shopping online leaves one open to be ripped off by sight only items that are shiny and different (call it modern) looking but have no strength or durability and are priced like a superior product. Marketers must see Australians as dumb consumers. Wisen up.


----------



## CanOz (29 September 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> Is this country being swamped by inferior products? Shopping online leaves one open to be ripped off by sight only items that are shiny and different (call it modern) looking but have no strength or durability and are priced like a superior product. Marketers must see Australians as dumb consumers. Wisen up.




Yeah i agree totally, we bought a glider rocker online only because we couldn't find one at the stores. It was easy to assemble but its made in China and designed for lightweights...


----------



## pixel (29 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Rant of the day:
> 9AM on the east coast , midweek: ATO online site is down for "scheduled maintenance"
> ATO: STOP telling us crap;
> you either have another of your weekly system F.U. or a whole division has to be sacked if you do "maintenance schedule in the middle of the working week during business hours
> ...




It's a symptom of our Public Service: You pay peanuts. You get monkeys.
Only the Fat Cats enjoyed the exorbitant salary increases which - as an involuntary side effect (yeah! right!) - gave our useless Politicians those undeserved perks. The pencil pushers at the coal face suffer in silence, until they find a complicit medico that attests stress leave and compo.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2016)

Another in an ever increasing list of problems with Qantas/ Australian aircraft.


Our safety reputation is slipping I'm afraid.



Qantas plane makes emergency landing at Darwin International Airport


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-30/qantas-plane-makes-emergency-landing-at-darwin-airport/7894164
--


----------



## CanOz (30 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Another in an ever increasing list of problems with Qantas/ Australian aircraft.
> 
> 
> Our safety reputation is slipping I'm afraid.
> ...




Really? So Sir, do you have statistics to base that statement on or are you just reacting to the news? I'm genuinly interested. Those 737's are getting pretty old now as well. Qantas has a pretty big fleet, i wonder if they're incident record is inline with similar sized fleets?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2016)

CanOz said:


> Really? So Sir, do you have statistics to base that statement on or are you just reacting to the news? I'm genuinly interested. Those 737's are getting pretty old now as well. Qantas has a pretty big fleet, i wonder if they're incident record is inline with similar sized fleets?




A week ago:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...t/news-story/fbdbcfd4959190096655db1ad6f3cc16

Also a week ago:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...n/news-story/b0566353b29a195eb3902a033ed3d529

Two weeks ago:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...a/news-story/cf399f7958f12d55e33f8a5c8bf77560


These incidents are becoming a bit too regular to say that everything is OK with the standard of Australian aviation.

Most of our aircraft are being maintain overseas now compared to say 20 years ago when the maintenance was done here and these type of incidents rarely occured.


----------



## Ves (30 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> These incidents are becoming a bit too regular to say that everything is OK with the standard of Australian aviation.
> 
> Most of our aircraft are being maintain overseas now compared to say 20 years ago when the maintenance was done here and these type of incidents rarely occured.



But....

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/630/who-are-the-worlds-safest-airlines-for-2016

Three years running.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2016)

Ves said:


> But....
> 
> http://www.airlineratings.com/news/630/who-are-the-worlds-safest-airlines-for-2016
> 
> Three years running.




As far as I know Qantas has always been fatality free, and maybe they have just been lucky that incidents haven't been worse, but the fact is that there are more of them these days. Maybe they won't be so lucky next time.

And you can come out looking good if you are compared with sub standard operators.


----------



## Ves (30 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And you can come out looking good if you are compared with sub standard operators.



Which standards are you measuring them against?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2016)

Ves said:


> Which standards are you measuring them against?




Their own record over the history of their operation.


----------



## Ves (30 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Their own record over the history of their operation.



Is this backed by statistics/data or is it personal speculation only?


----------



## Boggo (30 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> A week ago:
> http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...t/news-story/fbdbcfd4959190096655db1ad6f3cc16
> 
> Also a week ago:
> ...




None of those three will not appear on the Qantas incident list.

They are either external contractors or subsidiaries that Qantas have an interest in


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## pixel (2 February 2017)

*Another whinge about slipping standards, this time at the ASX:*
This morning, PDI crowed about some gold samples in Ivory Coast. While Au grades are usually reported in ppm (parts per Million, which equals grams per _metric_ ton), and I'm usually looking for figures from 4 upwards, PDI changed to ppb (parts per Billion!). I wonder how many casual readers would see 700+ and go "Woweee! Bonanza!".
Not only that, but PDI mention some JV with "Toro Gold" - which caused the ASX to automatically put the same news, complete with delayed Open, on TOE.
I may be wrong, but isn't Toro Gold a UK company? I always thought that was slightly different to Toro Energy, located in South Australia.


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## sptrawler (9 February 2017)

Talking about slipping standards, I was just watching the channel 9 news at 4, they were discussing Coles decision to limit the number of items allowed through self checkouts.
This is to try and reduce the amount of theft, being perpetrated through the self check out facility.
Well the female reporter being quizzed, admitted to a bit of stealing by wrongly identifying an item e.g weighing mushrooms and saying they are carrots.
She said it was o.k because Coles makes a ton of money, doesn't she know it is theft, what the hell does she tell her kids?
There are a couple of problems that I see, firstly it is weird that someone could be so matter a fact about a criminal practice, it shows how much moral standards have slipped.
Secondly, how dumb people are today, that reporter has admitted on National t.v that she has commited a crime.OMG
The police will have to prosecute her, she is as dumb as two short planks.


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## pixel (9 February 2017)

sptrawler said:


> how dumb people are today, that reporter has admitted on National t.v that she has commited a crime.OMG



Simple: The networks no longer pick them by journalistic ability, but by looks. Why else would we see so many ex-starlets, models, pageant placegetters ... reading off autocue the weather, share market results, or the news, or just being "at the scene". They're paid to be looked at, listened to, but not to think. (Still: some can think, but it rarely shows.)


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## Wysiwyg (10 February 2017)

Like employing females with no aptitude and/or no muscle to even up the company M/F numbers and on the same rate of pay. Been more noticeable last couple of years.


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