# Are you an intraday trader as a profession?



## Lammii (2 December 2008)

hey everyone
i'm new here and wondering do any of you intraday trade as your primary source of income? (as in you're your own boss, not work for a trading firm)

if so maybe you could give me some insight into what you trade and what kind of ballpark figure you could put on your yearly "salary"? (if you feel comfortable)

i'm 22 and just graduated uni. i have around 10k to play with and am wondering if i could earn a living from being an intraday trader. i have read a fair bit and heard mostly stories of people like me with dollar signs in their eyes that get badly burnt in the money markets. any thoughts or feedback will be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Beej (2 December 2008)

I would suggest $10k is nowhere near enough capital. It could be gone in a flash.....Go and get a job + some experience first, then have a think about it later.....

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## white_goodman (2 December 2008)

i hope to do it in 2 years, but yeh i reckon you would need minimum 100k


----------



## shaunQ (2 December 2008)

Not an intraday trader, but have tried and have around the same small capital as you. Very difficult as your unlikely to have, or want to pay for, the tools to help you. Your biggest problem is that you will take on sooo much more risk than others. You put on 10K which is your entire position (which would be a no-no in most professional eyes) and you would need .2% gain to cover costs. Other people could put way, way more, and have way less proportion of their capital. My view is 99.9% chance you'll get burnt. Probably not your entire worth, but you'll lose 2K before you come to your senses.

Your thoughts of making it your day job, is not unique, such as the very beginning of this video attached to this post: 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13549

You can look into CFDs which give you more leverage, but you will most likely get burnt there if you have no market experience and wouldn't suggest it.

But saying that, just simply trading some stocks and trying intraday gives you some great experience, and lets you see how often what you think will happen.. doesn't.


----------



## cbacamden (2 December 2008)

Beej - are you saying that your a day trader and you dont think its enough? or are you just saying you dont think its enough? Have you tried it ?


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 December 2008)

$50,000 min *IF* you're experienced and have a tested method with positive expectancy and land it big time lucky with a market that suits your style.

If you want to do it properly I would say you need $200,000 capital + $50,000 in cash for living expenses to see you through the first year.

$10,000!!! you have to be friggin kidding. even an experienced trader would be up against it.


----------



## Beej (2 December 2008)

cbacamden said:


> Beej - are you saying that your a day trader and you dont think its enough? or are you just saying you dont think its enough? Have you tried it ?




I have a lot of experience in this area, and made my living day trading for a time (don't at the moment). In my view you will never reliably make any reasonable amount of money (consistently) trading with that small amount of capital, as the amount of leverage required (as others have stated) would mean you risk way too much and are more likely to loose all your money than make any. You'd have a better chance betting on the horses....

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## rub92me (2 December 2008)

Lammii said:


> hey everyone
> i'm new here and wondering do any of you intraday trade as your primary source of income? (as in you're your own boss, not work for a trading firm)
> 
> if so maybe you could give me some insight into what you trade and what kind of ballpark figure you could put on your yearly "salary"? (if you feel comfortable)
> ...



Did you graduate in trading? If not, why would you think that you have acquired the skills required to make a living out of it.
It's like saying: "I've heard about surgeons making big money. I've got a big sharp knife. Do you think I could make a career out of being a surgeon?"


----------



## Lammii (2 December 2008)

ohh thx for all your replies!

@rub92me: i graduated electrical engineering. my thesis was a trading algorithm. it wasn't great, but it got me interested. it was an oscillator that thrived off sideways markets and was often fooled by trending markets. using past data (2003-mid2008 [before the crash i had finished writing it]) it was only beating a compound interest (7% over 5yrs) formula by around 8%.

i suppose the consensus is that i have too little capital and experience. but i am your willing student!

would i be right in thinking for something like intraday trading you would need to try it to ever become "experienced"? hence i wanna start young. so far i've only programmed simulations for end of day trades.


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 December 2008)

If you are a systems trader you are going to need even more capital. IMO

Yes you need to try it for about 3 years. 1st year on sim/back test.

You, at the moment, have no idea. You need screen time. 1000's of hours of it.


----------



## Lammii (2 December 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> If you are a systems trader you are going to need even more capital. IMO
> 
> Yes you need to try it for about 3 years. 1st year on sim/back test.
> 
> You, at the moment, have no idea. You need screen time. 1000's of hours of it.




1000s! well i guess i couldn't expect less.

is there any free real time platforms out there for ASX stocks? or maybe cheap-ish?


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 December 2008)

Lammii said:


> 1000s! well i guess i couldn't expect less.
> 
> is there any free real time platforms out there for ASX stocks? or maybe cheap-ish?




Nope. Expect about $500 per year for ASX data.


----------



## Lammii (2 December 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. Expect about $500 per year for ASX data.



hmm, i guess if i aim to make $500 from trades in my first simulation year then it would be worth it!

thx for the info


----------



## James Austin (2 December 2008)

if u r super keen Lammii, i suggest u take a look at $1 index CFDs. 

very challenging intraday index trading, but $1pnts will minimise loss and if u r sensible, give u a couple of years training (full-time) with your capital

at the end of which u could conceivably come out with $5k of your 10k still in tact, which is ample if you have developed some skill and consistent profits to move up to $5 pnts and multiples of.

myself i spent about $2500 in my first 12 months as a student of full-time (14hr days) intraday index trading. Now after 12 months I have weeks where I brake even, sometimes take a small loss and sometimes a decent profit, ie. after 12 months I’m no longer going backwards financially, but forwards, and it only cost me $2.5 grand for the training.

So, in sum, intraday index trading does not require a huge stash of cash to get started, if u do the maths, you’ll see this for yourself. Rather its more about working your butt off, and being sensible about your trading.


----------



## Ruincity (2 December 2008)

What trading platform are you using for the $1 CFD's James?


----------



## James Austin (2 December 2008)

Ruincity said:


> What trading platform are you using for the $1 CFD's James?




IG for ftse
CMC for Aus


----------



## aohx075 (3 December 2008)

I have the same question but this time directed for Forex intraday traders as opposed to stock traders. Would having a capital of around 10k be enough to get you started on intraday Forex trading with leverage at around the 100:1 mark? 

I'm thinking of taking advantage of the 100:1 leverage that will enable me to purchase a 100,000 lot for $1000, with each pip movement equating to roughly $15 AUD.

Currently I'm working full-time so I'm hoping to start intraday trading at night for 2-3 hours a night in a couple of months. I've been playing around with GFT's dealbook 360 application and besides the fact it crashes if you play around with its indicators too much it seems to be pretty good. 

Wondering on your thoughts =)


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 December 2008)

BLOODY HELL this question gets tyring!! I know you are a newbie and you have the same right to ask it as the last Newb But!!!!!

Leverage has absolutely FRIGGIN nothing to do with how much you can or should trade. NOTHING.

You can't trade $10,000 like it's $100,000 no matter how much marketing Bull the bucket shops feed you.

Have a good read of this,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10621

some more stuff on my blog about daytrading and position sizing/leverage etc.


----------



## aohx075 (3 December 2008)

LOL Hey TH! I guess I didn't communicate my post clearly. I was actually after people's experience in succeeding as an intra-day trader on the FOREX starting with a capital of around $10k (More around $7k for me). Also wondering what people's salaries are as a FOREX intra-day trader and what leverage, number of trades they make per day.

In regards to your link and leverage, are you trying to tell me that I should consider risking no more than 2% of my equity per trade? So for example, if I have capital of 5k, then for each leveraged trade, I should risk no more than $100 which would (as a very rough figure) equate to 7-9 pips? That's currently how I'm paper trading atm.


----------



## prawn_86 (3 December 2008)

It doesnt matter what your trading, 10k is not enough to make a living from.

Sure you can do it in your spare time and grow your capital, but dont expect to be able to pay the bills with it. Especially if your just starting. After 5 - 10 yrs parctice you might know what your doing and by then have enough capital to go full time


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 December 2008)

For intraday trading I would say you should risk no more than 1% *PER DAY.*

That would make each trade about 0.02 % capital at risk, depending on expected trades per day.

As for me I make 100 to 500 trades a day and can earn more than the avg yearly wage in days. And you have no hope getting there with 10 g's :::::


----------



## James Austin (3 December 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> For intraday trading I would say you should risk no more than 1% *PER DAY.*
> 
> That would make each trade about 0.02 % capital at risk, depending on expected trades per day.
> 
> As for me I make 100 to 500 trades a day and can earn more than the avg yearly wage in days. And you have no hope getting there with 10 g's :::::




TH 
a previous post of yours (on a different thread) gave me the impression u started trading with *minimal TC*. I could be mistaken, but if i'm not, look at where u r today.

certainly a beginner cant go from zero to hero in a year, but what they can do, even with a small TC, is make a start, as my post a few back states.

and once you've made a start, and years of doing it tough with a small TC, and not blowing up your TC, the magic of compunding, *skill and dollars*, will get u to the finish line.


----------



## awg (3 December 2008)

Lammii said:


> hey everyone
> i'm new here and wondering do any of you intraday trade as your primary source of income? (as in you're your own boss, not work for a trading firm)
> 
> if so maybe you could give me some insight into what you trade and what kind of ballpark figure you could put on your yearly "salary"? (if you feel comfortable)
> ...




to add to what the experienced traders such as TH have noted, u 100% cannot make a living with 10k trading capital.

the easiest way to test your trading knowledge/skills/theories is with CFD demo accounts, with the various providers. IG, GFT etc

see how much u lose. ( u could blow 10k in a fortnight easy)

if u r clever or lucky enough to be ahead at the end of that, realise real money is obviously much more difficult, due to emotional impacts.

i was able to be slightly ahead on trial CFD accounts, after 12 months of trading ASX shares (at a loss).

Due to ongoing volatility, trading is very risky, unless u r  experieced enough to profit from volatility itself, as opposed to riding trends with leverage.

my answer assumes u r a newbie.


----------



## aohx075 (3 December 2008)

1% per day? Wow that's a very small amount...equates to around $50 per day if I have $5000 capital.

So I'm assuming when people advise you not to risk more than 2% of your capital per trade they are saying that in reference to swing and long term traders who would hold onto their trades for greater than a day? I'll keep that in mind~ And my ambitious med-long term goal is to get to your level of profits sometime : haha *awaits flaming*


----------



## prawn_86 (3 December 2008)

James Austin said:


> TH
> a previous post of yours (on a different thread) gave me the impression u started trading with *minimal TC*. I could be mistaken, but if i'm not, look at where u r today.
> 
> certainly a beginner cant go from zero to hero in a year, but what they can do, even with a small TC, is make a start, as my post a few back states.
> ...




Not wanting to speak for TH, but that minimal aco**** was just a bit of 'fun' for him i think, it wasnt his major trading account.

And yes you can grow and compound a small account, but you cant expect to draw a living from it as these posters have asked


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 December 2008)

James Austin said:


> TH
> a previous post of yours (on a different thread) gave me the impression u started trading with *minimal TC*. I could be mistaken, but if i'm not, look at where u r today.




Nah I lost about $80,000 in my first few years. Then rebuilt from there.

$10,000 capital would have had me out of the game in months.


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 December 2008)

aohx075 said:


> 1% per day? Wow that's a very small amount...equates to around $50 per day if I have $5000 capital.
> 
> So I'm assuming when people advise you not to risk more than 2% of your capital per trade they are saying that in reference to swing and long term traders who would hold onto their trades for greater than a day? I'll keep that in mind~ And my ambitious med-long term goal is to get to your level of profits sometime : haha *awaits flaming*




YES.

If you are doing 10 trades a day (which I consider not enough) and get them all wrong, don't be fooled this is very common, and are risking 2% thats 20% of your capital in one day 

The chances of coming back from that is very unlikely. IMHO


----------



## aohx075 (3 December 2008)

Ahhh ok thanks for that advice! 

It never really occurred to me that the 2% advice was really directed towards the long term traders! Thanks for the heads up TH!


----------



## milligan (3 December 2008)

Why not have my first post here.  I signed up today because I (like the rest of you) just received an email promoting a certain bucket shop, whoops, cfd DEALER.

Anyway, I think you can make a go using $10,000 will the following additions.
*  Plenty of experience with real live trading using a "method" that you have confidence in.  How, start trading very small and be prepared to lose a lot through mistakes.  I consider myself a trader of reasonable experience but I can still throw money away due to error and poor mindset management.

*Confidence in your method (did I mention that already).  You need to trust your method otherwise when you have a real stake in the market you will not follow it.  You will start getting out early (only to watch the market run off) and holding on for a few more ticks (only to see the market take off, this time, with your money).  

* A super understanding of the platform you use.  This is to avoid needless mistakes which cost you.  

You need to keep your risk small, especially in the beginning.  You will lose money.  That is the only guarantee in trading.  To keep your risk small you will probably have to trade with the CFD dealers.  Just be aware whilst their prices are based on a live markets the wont be exactly the same.  And it will seem that the extra ticks they seem to add will just happen to take out your stops before the market moves in your favour.  They have an interest in running your stops (which they know the levels of unless you keep it a mental stop - but dont do this yet).  They get the spread and/or the commission from doing this.  

I have been using CFD dealers for my short full time day trading career, which has only been going for a few months, and have been making money starting with a smaller stake then yours.  This just makes it that much harder but I have been around trading for a few years now.  

Dont let anybody tell you you cant do something just be aware that with your situation you will need a lot of hard work and unfortunately (I cant believe I am saying this) LUCK.  The bigger your stake grows and the more experience and confidence you get the less luck will play a part.  

The 2% rule of risk management has been pushed and prodded for years and I think that it is widely accepted that at this level you are guarding against bad luck taking you out.  the theory is the longer you stick around the better your chances of long term success.  

The odds are against you and if you want to run as a long shot just remember that you may do the lot.  But you will be much richer for the experience as long as you learn from it.  Keep your size small and spend any spare time soaking up s much knowledge as you can.  Get confident in your method/system by paper trading it then start live but stay really small.  Work out the kinks, leanr your platform, and keep your emotion in check.  If you feel the need to double down and get it back - walk away.  Dont be greedy and dont change your method mid trade.  Stick to the rules and re-assess out of the market.

That should do for a first post.  Remember there is really no wrong way to trade as long as you have confidence in it and it makes money.  Well  I suppose there is wrong ways to trade but I am sure you will discover that in your journey. 

BTW, the search function in forums is knowledge gold dust.  Learn how to use it and you will find nearly everything you need.

Cheers.


----------



## skc (3 December 2008)

Lammii said:


> if so maybe you could give me some insight into what you trade and what kind of ballpark figure you could put on your yearly "salary"? (if you feel comfortable). i'm 22 and just graduated uni. i have around 10k to play with and am wondering if i could earn a living from being an intraday trader.




Asking how much money people earn from day trading is a bit like asking how much money people make acting or as a writer... This is one of those jobs that has no limit in terms of potential income, but the probability of success is against you... for every Brad Pitt and JK Rowlin out there, there are hundreds and thousands of struggling actors and writer who can't make ends meet.

One should always take into account of the opportunity cost of trading. Trading is not only risking your trading capital, but doing it full time means no employment income. So even if you are lucky and got 25% return on your $10K, this $2.5K has actually costed you ~$30K (avg salary after tax). Treat this an a major "investment" decision of you life. Since you went to uni for several years, why not capitalise on that investment for a bit first. The market will always be here...


----------



## milligan (3 December 2008)

skc said:


> Asking how much money people earn from day trading is a bit like asking how much money people make acting or as a writer... This is one of those jobs that has no limit in terms of potential income, but the probability of success is against you... for every Brad Pitt and JK Rowlin out there, there are hundreds and thousands of struggling actors and writer who can't make ends meet.
> 
> One should always take into account of the opportunity cost of trading. Trading is not only risking your trading capital, but doing it full time means no employment income. So even if you are lucky and got 25% return on your $10K, this $2.5K has actually costed you ~$30K (avg salary after tax). Treat this an a major "investment" decision of you life. Since you went to uni for several years, why not capitalise on that investment for a bit first. The market will always be here...




Good point.  The problem with trading full time as opposed to in addition to a reg job is that it puts a lot of pressure to perform on the individual.  Without the neccessary skills or confidence (or capital) this is an added stress you dont need.  

Why bother with 3/4 years at uni if you are not ganna use it.  I put in 8 years work (still not much) before attempting to trade full time.  I wanted to trade full time after leaving (whilst still at) high school.  This gave me time to get a base in real estate, etc, which eases the pressure.  Gotta love those lines of credit.

I know I didnt want to hear it but it just helps put a few things in your favour.


----------



## Lammii (3 December 2008)

@skc: good point! didn't think of it as an opportunity cost. also when i asked how much people were earning i was actually referring to your own personal position, not in general. sorry for the misunderstanding

@TH and milligan: just to know there are some day traders out there that are doing well is good enough inspiration to keep me striving for it!

oh also. could anybody point me in the direction of any sydney based trading firms or similar? i wanna apply for a job! lol
the only one i know is propex derivatives


----------



## kam75 (3 December 2008)

Making money consistently off the quote screen may be the most difficult type of trading.  You have to make decisions on the moment.  10k in Forex may be a small but adequate start but you will have to incorporate some very, very good maney management rules into your trading plan.  And you will need a lot of discipline to follow those rules!
best of luck


----------



## MRC & Co (3 December 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> and land it big time lucky with a market that suits your style.




And isn't that the big one.  You need a good market to begin in, if you want to build fast.

Average pay?  Impossible question.

Completely depends on the trader and the market(s) they are trading. 

A decent Nikkei trader could make double a good SPI trader just because of the size they can wack on.  But Nikkei is probably a harder market to master from what I hear.

Let's just say, on a good day, a very good SPI trader can make much more than the annual yearly salary.   But like anything, that requires some risk on the day.  Nothing is free in this game, it's hard damn work, but mightily fun if you get it right.


----------



## Naked shorts (3 December 2008)

aohx075 said:


> I have the same question but this time directed for Forex intraday traders as opposed to stock traders. Would having a capital of around 10k be enough to get you started on intraday Forex trading with leverage at around the 100:1 mark?
> 
> I'm thinking of taking advantage of the 100:1 leverage that will enable me to purchase a 100,000 lot for $1000, with each pip movement equating to roughly $15 AUD.
> 
> ...





no no no  no no n on on on on on nNO!

get an account with GoMarkets and trade 0.01 lots. its around 30cents per pip. you DO NOT want to have anymore leverage then that if you are starting out


----------



## white_goodman (3 December 2008)

Naked shorts said:


> no no no  no no n on on on on on nNO!
> 
> get an account with GoMarkets and trade 0.01 lots. its around 30cents per pip. you DO NOT want to have anymore leverage then that if you are starting out




or sign up with IBFX where you get $100 lots ie 0.001 of a standard lot, thats what ive done and im earning a few dollars a day perfecting or nailing my system


----------



## Lammii (4 December 2008)

white_goodman said:


> or sign up with IBFX where you get $100 lots ie 0.001 of a standard lot, thats what ive done and im earning a few dollars a day perfecting or nailing my system




wow good stuff! shall give it a try!
sorry i read wikipedia about "pip".
i dun really get the example they give
"The pip is the smallest measure regardless of the fractional representation of the currency exchange rate. Thus, 1.3000 to 1.3010 is the same move in pips terms as 110.00 to 110.10."

how is         1.3000 -> 1.3010
the same as 110.00 -> 110.10

one is 10cents the other is 0.1cents


----------



## Naked shorts (4 December 2008)

Lammii said:


> wow good stuff! shall give it a try!
> sorry i read wikipedia about "pip".
> i dun really get the example they give
> "The pip is the smallest measure regardless of the fractional representation of the currency exchange rate. Thus, 1.3000 to 1.3010 is the same move in pips terms as 110.00 to 110.10."
> ...




when/if you get with a broker, you will see on the 1min chart that the price moves up and down, the smallest it can move is a pip. (its not something to get worried over however...)


----------



## Panacea (4 December 2008)

Being under-capitalised is a source of endless frustration for me, as it is for many others i'm sure.

Every time a thread appears asking "Is $x enough...", the experienced traders respond with "no way, can't be done". And no doubt they're right - especially in this market.

One of the best tips i've ever come across was from Trembling Hand's blog (I think - pls correct me if i'm wrong). It was to _"focus on the process, not the money!" _Reading this made me feel less like an outsider, and more like someone on a who has to walk before he runs. 

Good luck with your journey, Lammii.


----------



## awg (4 December 2008)

Panacea said:


> Being under-capitalised is a source of endless frustration for me, as it is for many others i'm sure.
> 
> Every time a thread appears asking "Is $x enough...", the experienced traders respond with "no way, can't be done". And no doubt they're right - especially in this market.
> 
> ...





the guys original question was whether he could MAKE A LIVING with 10k starting capital...answer unequivocal no.

thats not to say he cant BUILD his capital, even though 10k is probably on the low side, and when u r new, u r more likely to lose than profit.

but EVERYONE is new at first.

problem is u r competing in an open market against much more experienced operators, so they take yr money.

just like if u decided to jump in a Class A motor vehicle in a field of pros.

another thing that works against newbies who want to earn a living, is that they have to go to work to pay the bills, then come home tired and try to play the overnight Oz 200 and get raped due to liquidity spreads, or markets they are unfamiliar with such as S&P or Forex and get ganged by bigboys


----------



## Panacea (4 December 2008)

awg said:


> the guys original question was whether he could MAKE A LIVING with 10k starting capital...answer unequivocal no.
> 
> thats not to say he cant BUILD his capital, even though 10k is probably on the low side, and when u r new, u r more likely to lose than profit.
> 
> but EVERYONE is new at first.




Yeah, you're right. I guess I was responding to the more general question of what to do when the door gets slammed in your face. Answer: keep knocking.

No doubt, you have to reconcile your circumstance (capital) with your ambition (full-time trading).


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 December 2008)

> the guys original question was whether he could MAKE A LIVING with 10k starting capital...answer unequivocal no.




with no experience the starting capital could quickly become a course fee. 




> thats not to say he cant BUILD his capital, even though 10k is probably on the low side, and when u r new, u r more likely to lose than profit.





Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## chops_a_must (4 December 2008)

You could make pocket money. That's it I would say...

Can't think of a futures contract that would be worth it with that much even...


----------

