# Tyranny



## wayneL (11 January 2021)

Are we living under tyranny? Or is all this necessary temporarily and we will get our liberties back in due course?

Somehow I doubt it.

Has the Orwellian dystopia actually arrived, Komrades?


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## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

Well I guess it goes back to the old saying  "scientia potentia est" , which means knowledge is power, or information is power.
When the information is controlled by a centrally concentrated few, they can control and manipulate the information, I guess that is why some sectors of government are wondering how to get a handle on google etc.
Certainly interesting times, Trumps destruction will have highlighted the problem, to those who could just as easily be destroyed IMO.
So I guess it is just another phase we are going through.


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## wayneL (11 January 2021)




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## Knobby22 (11 January 2021)

Unfortunately, the autocrats have a reasonable chance at some stage be able to remove the conservatives and liberals in a night of knives and set up a dictatorship, to the joy of China and Russia.

History Repeats. We have had the night of broken glass  in a sense already.

I am sure this can be turned around however it will take the Republicans leaders to go the hard way. it is up to the true Republicans to ensure that they work in the countries interest to heal the country and ensure that the Presidents they offer have their values.

Whilst we have people brainwashed into thinking the Democrats are communists  (I note Konmrade mention above) due to extensive propaganda supported by internal and international vested interests then this cannot be avoided.

The USA now that at the present moment probably 25% of the population who would have supported the recent coup attempts (direct action, using the defense forces (who wouldn't do as Trump requested) and trying to get Republican States to rig the voting.

Among the Republicans there is still a large percentage of elected officials who believe in the American Dream of Democracy but another generation of letting the extremists get their way will end this. The next potential dictator will plan this much better than Trump.


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## wayneL (11 January 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Unfortunately, the autocrats have a reasonable chance at some stage be able to remove the conservatives and liberals in a night of knives and set up a dictatorship, to the joy of China and Russia.
> 
> History Repeats. We have had the night of broken glass  in a sense already.
> 
> ...



So many good points Knobby, kudos.

Yet so many BS points.


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## wayneL (11 January 2021)

Some great discussion from one of our local Brissy lads


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## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Unfortunately, the autocrats have a reasonable chance at some stage be able to remove the conservatives and liberals in a night of knives and set up a dictatorship, to the joy of China and Russia.
> 
> History Repeats. We have had the night of broken glass  in a sense already.
> 
> ...



As I've said on numerous occasions, I have no understanding of U.S politics and have no interest in learning about it, can't be bothered.
So I look at it from a holistic perspective, whether people like it or not Trump has switched on the light bulb, a lot of people will be saying "you know what, we are too dependent on China, we are being screwed".
Trump is mega rich, so in reality the pantomime doesn't really bother him, he will still be rich afterwards.
From what I've read, many Presidents rely on their terms in office, for their later wealth.
So IMO getting rid of Trump probably hasn't achieved much, many more people will be questioning, why are we closing down and outsourcing our jobs.
Which IMO is a good thing, we have lifted China out of poverty, it is time they stopped trying to put us into poverty. 😂
I think if the new U.S government doesn't continue with the repatriation of value jobs, the discontent will build and really become a huge issue for the U.S and in that, what affects the U.S affects us.
After all, as a P.M once said, we are the white trash of Asia.


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## dutchie (11 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As I've said on numerous occasions, I have no understanding of U.S politics and have no interest in learning about it, can't be bothered.
> So I look at it from a holistic perspective, whether people like it or not Trump has switched on the light bulb, a lot of people will be saying "you know what, we are too dependent on China, we are being screwed".
> Trump is mega rich, so in reality the pantomime doesn't really bother him, he will still be rich afterwards.
> From what I've read, many Presidents rely on their terms in office, for their later wealth.
> ...



Don't bother learning the current US political system as it's all but gone.


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## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

dutchie said:


> Don't bother learning the current US political system as it's all but gone.



Well the way it is going, it certainly appears to be, all the western governments appear to losing control of media stage and control of the monetary systems.
it appears from the outside looking in, the media mediums are controlling the stage and rhetoric, while bitcoin the multinationals and electronic money transfer platforms are controlling the monetary agenda.
So from a plebs point of view it all appears to be unravelling.  

As Jack Ma is finding out, eventually the system has to take over control, if not chaos takes over and the system fails.


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2021)

While we still live in a democracy I don't think it can be said we are living under tyranny.

But yes, there are constraints on what we are allowed to see or read and increasing encroachments on our freedoms via various National Security Acts and politically correct Legislation like the Racial Villification Act where giving offence is a criminal act.

We could well be the frog in the saucepan with the heat slowly being turned up. Unfortunately the so called protectors of Freedom; ie the Coalition are the worst offenders in taking away our freedoms. The other side has allowed them to do it. 

Watch out.


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## Knobby22 (11 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Some great discussion from one of our local Brissy lads





Exactly my point. You make it succinctly.

Herd the sheep, get them in line, they are in a tribe of good against the godless communists who also run child sex rings. Set up a dictatorship. Of course it will look a bit like democracy, all dictatorships including Russia's have elections.

Oh, some people are protesting that the election was corrupted, obviously communists, gee some are protesting within the party, luckily we found they were secretly communists and they have been removed.  The media  is biased, we will fix that.
Peace at last.


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## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> While we still live in a democracy I don't think it can be said we are living under tyranny.
> 
> But yes, there are constraints on what we are allowed to see or read and increasing encroachments on our freedoms via various National Security Acts and politically correct Legislation like the Racial Villification Act where giving offence is a criminal act.
> 
> ...



Agree with you completely Rumpy, the only problem is, the "other side" is completely subjective.
That is what the media is controlling, who they decide is the "other side" and that is why people need to think past the headline, past the spin and look at the obvious, which is the outcome.
Many find that way too hard, that's why they keep dropping the education standards. 😂


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> We could well be the frog in the saucepan with the heat slowly being turned up. Unfortunately the so called protectors of Freedom; ie *the Coalition* *are the worst offenders* in taking away our freedoms. The other side has allowed them to do it.
> 
> Watch out.



That is an interesting statement, that you keep throwing in, can you actually stump a few up?
I find in W.A, it seems to be Labor who get through controversial legislation, the latest being banning radar detectors.
Not that I agree with radar detectors, or dislike the W.A Labor Party, far from it I think McGowan has done a great job, but they certainly have taken away freedoms  and from what i've read Dan Andrews seems to have pushed the boat out.
I just find it interesting, that it seems to be natural precursor to any anti government comment, that it has to be qualified that the coalition are the worst.
Just wondering.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is an interesting statement, that you keep throwing in, can you actually stump a few up?
> I find in W.A, it seems to be Labor who get through controversial legislation, the latest being banning radar detectors.
> Not that I agree with radar detectors, or dislike the W.A Labor Party, far from it I think McGowan has done a great job, but they certainly have taken away freedoms  and from what i've read Dan Andrews seems to have pushed the boat out.
> I just find it interesting, that it seems to be natural precursor to any anti government comment, that it has to be qualified that the coalition are the worst.
> Just wondering.




Well, here's one.









						Peter Dutton Proposes Prison for Refusing to Provide Passwords
					

The Home Affairs Minister is proposing new laws which would make it a crime to refuse to provide mobile phone and computer passwords to authorities.




					www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au
				




There are a lot of other stories around about what this bloke wants to do. He's very dangerous imo.


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## dutchie (12 January 2021)




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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, here's one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the worst cases of government intervention, in my life time, was when the military was used by the government to strike break. Most unusual for Labor to actively destroy the right to strike. So in reality it isn't a one side of politics thing, it is just presented that way by the media, funny that.
It is an interesting article and a raw piece of history for a lot of people.








						30 years since the 1989 pilots’ dispute - The Socialist
					

Reading Time: 10 minutes 30 years ago, Australia was gripped by industrial unrest that caused major disruption to domestic air travel. Airline pilots squared off against their employers. ...




					thesocialist.org.au
				



:
From the article:

_30 years ago, Australia was gripped by industrial unrest that caused major disruption to domestic air travel. Airline pilots squared off against their employers. It was presented as a battle over pay, but really it represented much more.

The airlines were backed to the hilt by the Hawke Labor government, the right-wing media, and unfortunately, the Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU). Against all odds, the pilots put up a hard fight, but in the end, they were beaten by an unholy alliance that was hell bent on taking Australian capitalism in a new direction.

The 1989 pilots dispute was one of the most expensive Australia had ever seen. The government and the airlines spent hundreds of millions of dollars to not only win the battle, but to crush the pilot’s union – the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

During the dispute the government called a national emergency and deployed armed forces and planes to fly commercial routes. Hundreds of scab pilots from overseas had their visas fast tracked, and their wages paid by the government in an attempt to undermine the union’s campaign._


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One of the worst cases of government intervention, in my life time, was when the military was used by the government to strike break. Most unusual for Labor to actively destroy the right to strike.




I don't consider that intervention socialist, communist or whatever else you want to call it.

People were being stranded with no way of getting home and the government simply provided a temporary emergency service to get people home.

There was no question of this being a permanent action. The pilots still had a right to strike, the dispute was settled and things went back to normal.

The government was just looking after the people in my view.


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't consider that intervention socialist, communist or whatever else you want to call it.
> 
> People were being stranded with no way of getting home and the government simply provided a temporary emergency service to get people home.
> 
> ...



They weren't stranded, there were other domestic carriers and other forms of national transport, the pilots were broken by the government using military aircraft and from memory the airlines were not allowed to re employ any pilot who had been involved in the dispute.
If the coalition had tried that the country would have gone out on strike.
But I guess it depends on what you see as fair and reasonable from a political party, that is why I'm a very middle of the road swinging voter, I know either side can do both positive and negative things.
I don't call it communist or socialist, I just call it strike breaking, which is unheard of from a Labor government. When Thatcher did it in the U.K the unions were appalled, when Bob does it here, as you show he is applauded. Just saying judge both sides on performance, not perception.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> They weren't stranded, there were other domestic carriers and other forms of national transport, the pilots were broken by the government using military aircraft and from memory the airlines were not allowed to re employ any pilot who had been involved in the dispute.
> If the coalition had tried that the country would have gone out on strike.
> But I guess it depends on what you see as fair and reasonable from a political party, that is why I'm a very middle of the road swinging voter, I know either side can do both positive and negative things.
> I don't call it communist or socialist, I just call it strike breaking, which is unheard of from a Labor government. When Thatcher did it in the U.K the unions were appalled, when Bob does it here, as you show he is applauded. Just saying judge both sides on performance, not perception.




That was 30 years ago.

What do you think of what Dutton wants to do now ?


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## orr (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That was 30 years ago.
> 
> What do you think of what Dutton wants to do now ?




Exactly Rumpole... 
the 20 years  is of inerest because that's  how long Government can hide behind the Cabinet paper diclosure law. Down from 30..

And to get things more up to date the *Secret prosecution* and *Secret goaling *of witness J under our Serurity Laws is one issue of many of immediate concern   to people who are upto date on what's going on with government over reach.

Laws intituted under Howards government allowed these steps toward Tyranny...


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That was 30 years ago.
> 
> What do you think of what Dutton wants to do now ?



He'd do exactly the same and I would be just as pizzed of with him. 
That's why I don't hold any allegiance to either party. They both respond to the set of circumstances that face them, it is how they react that I judge them on, if it is in a manner I agree with fine if not I wont vote for them.
That goes for all sides.
Like I said McGowan IMO is doing a good job, I didn't like the fact he double the electricity supply charge, because that hits those who can least afford it, so I found it a bit hypocritical.
I do like the way he has managed the State border and kept the mining industry running.
I don't care one way or another about banning radar detectors, I don't use them, but it is an infringement on freedoms.
But on balance I'm pretty happy with his performance.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> He'd do exactly the same and I would be just as pizzed of with him.
> That's why I don't hold any allegiance to either party. They both respond to the set of circumstances that face them, it is how they react that I judge them on, if it is in a manner I agree with fine if not I wont vote for them.
> That goes for all sides.
> Like I said McGowan IMO is doing a good job, I didn't like the fact he double the electricity supply charge, because that hits those who can least afford it, so I found it a bit hypocritical.
> ...




So you were pizzed off with Peter Reith and the Patrick Partners fiasco ?

Strike breaking is a distraction we are now talking about people becoming criminals for not "cooperating" with whatever Dutton and his band of Nazis want them to do.

Do you agree with that ? Did you read the article I posted ?


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So you were pizzed off with Peter Reith and the Patrick Partners fiasco ?
> 
> Strike breaking is a distraction we are now talking about people becoming criminals for not "cooperating" with whatever Dutton and his band of Nazis want them to do.
> 
> Do you agree with that ? Did you read the article I posted ?



I thought Peter Reith was a nasty piece of work, also Malcolm Fraser.


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## wayneL (12 January 2021)

I agree that the LNP has been far more tyrannical then the Labor Party. However I don't think that that is because LNP is more tyrannical than labour, just that the opportunities presented themselves more often during LNP governments.

The truth is that the type of person who aspires to government, does have a more authoritarian / tyrannical bent and it doesn't matter whether they are from the left or the right.

Either way, neither party will get my vote any time in the foreseeable future, exactly because they are authoritarian @sshats... Which naturally excludes some minor parties on the same basis, most especially the Greens.


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## dutchie (12 January 2021)

*The “Crisis” is Corporate Liberal Authoritarianism*


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## wayneL (12 January 2021)

Not the America I grew up in!


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## wayneL (12 January 2021)

Verrrry interesting:


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## dutchie (13 January 2021)

US Today


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## Knobby22 (13 January 2021)




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## IFocus (13 January 2021)

Nouriel Roubini  doesn't pull any punches in the piece and paints a pretty ugly picture of what and why Trump could do.

Worth a read IMHO

" The US will thus most likely be the world’s new epicentre of political and geopolitical instability in the months and years ahead. America’s allies will need to hedge their bets against a future return of Trumpism, and strategic rivals will continue to try to destabilise the US through asymmetric warfare. The world is in for a long, ugly, bumpy ride. "









						The US is the new focus of global instability | Nouriel Roubini
					

Donald Trump has few options left but to foment even more chaos both at home and abroad




					www.theguardian.com


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## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nouriel Roubini  doesn't pull any punches in the piece and paints a pretty ugly picture of what and why Trump could do.
> 
> Worth a read IMHO
> 
> ...



The U.S will become the Worlds epicentre  of instability because it is controlled by the major multinationals, who want to to make the maximum money by building $hit in cheap labour and cheap cost countries, it isn't rocket science. There are 340million people in the U.S watching their lifestyle and hopes disappear to overseas countries, there are 10 million making a killing, yes there will be a lot of unrest.

As the western world runs out of credibility, due to the fact they produce nothing, the third world who are manufacturing everything will start to charge more for their products as their currencies are revalued, then the value of the western world currencies drops because it isn't as valuable then everything costs more.
Pretty straight forward, I think, but hey a bit of real poverty might help switch on the lights. Who knows.
Just my thoughts and I'm grateful I live in Australia, 25 million people with a huge mine in the backyard, so there is plenty of money to go around and plenty of fudge factor to turn it around.
Not so in the U.S IMO.
Just my opinion.


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## dutchie (14 January 2021)

The Swamp is making sure Trump does not run again.


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## dutchie (14 January 2021)




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## IFocus (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The U.S will become the Worlds epicentre  of instability because it is controlled by the major multinationals, who want to to make the maximum money by building $hit in cheap labour and cheap cost countries, it isn't rocket science. There are 340million people in the U.S watching their lifestyle and hopes disappear to overseas countries, there are 10 million making a killing, yes there will be a lot of unrest.
> 
> As the western world runs out of credibility, due to the fact they produce nothing, the third world who are manufacturing everything will start to charge more for their products as their currencies are revalued, then the value of the western world currencies drops because it isn't as valuable then everything costs more.
> Pretty straight forward, I think, but hey a bit of real poverty might help switch on the lights. Who knows.
> ...





SP the total wealth in the US has never been higher, the move of manufacturing away from the US (still falling under Trump BTW) has actually brought move wealth and made products not previously available to the masses now available.

Open trade and globalisation is the reason, you know the very thing Trump is against.

What hasn't happened is the political will to more fairly distribute that wealth even if they gave health care to all like Australia (the costs and grifting around health would also require addressing) or aggressively promote training etc instead of loading up students with mind boggling debt.

Both sides are guilty Republicans more so, when you don't have wages growth for 30 years or more then you know the system is broken in regards of politics governing for the benefit of the masses.

Instead you hear the BS everyone has unlimited opportunity, everyone can be a any thing they want etc, all from the moneyed elite and beloved by nut cases like the ones fighting for Trump who BTW are going to jail.


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## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> SP the total wealth in the US has never been higher, the move of manufacturing away from the US (still falling under Trump BTW) has actually brought move wealth and made products not previously available to the masses now available.
> 
> Open trade and globalisation is the reason, you know the very thing Trump is against.
> 
> ...



Like I said IFocus the wealth is owned by 10% of the population, the rest are sliding more and more into poverty, the countries where the manufacturing is occurring are seeing their currencies strenghen as per Thailand etc and the wealth imbalance is happening there also.

The only way you can base sustainable wage rises is with improvements in productivity, to just keep increasing labour costs by increasing wages makes your product more expensive and less competitive against other countries therefore no one buys your product and you lose more jobs as the companies go broke.
I think grasping the big picture is peoples problem, just throwing more money around  indiscriminately sounds wonderfull, and I'm all for it, but the end result is a Greece style economy, with poor public services and extreme poverty.
Australia can afford its healthcare system which is a wonderful thing, but it is only affordable until it can no longer be supported by the underpinning economy.
If the U.S wanted to bring it in I'm sure they could, also they could really hammer that top 10% of filthy rich, to pay for it.
But then you would just get the situation, where as happened here and in the U.K, the top 10% relocate to a lower taxing country, simple really.
The only way to fix the situation is to somehow re introduce higher skilled higher paying jobs, which usually comes from manufacturing, to do that it will necessitate the manufacturers losing some profit margin, which will be the increased labour component or tariffs on the imported products, as has been shown with Trump they aren't happy with that prospect.
A magic wand would be nice, if everything keeps going the way it is.


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## IFocus (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said IFocus the wealth is owned by 10% of the population, the rest are sliding more and more into poverty, the countries where the manufacturing is occurring are seeing their currencies strenghen as per Thailand etc and the wealth imbalance is happening there also.
> 
> The only way you can base sustainable wage rises is with improvements in productivity, to just keep increasing labour costs by increasing wages makes your product more expensive and less competitive against other countries therefore no one buys your product and you lose more jobs as the companies go broke.
> I think grasping the big picture is peoples problem, just throwing more money around  indiscriminately sounds wonderfull, and I'm all for it, but the end result is a Greece style economy, with poor public services and extreme poverty.
> ...





I think you missed the point cheers.


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## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think you missed the point cheers.



My apologies if I did, it wasn't intentional, I find the subject really interesting and there really isn't a definitive answer to the problem. So I'm sure we will be discussing it for a long time to come.  
Inequality is rife in all societies, be they socialist or capitalist, greed knows no boundaries. We are very fortunate in Australia, that our mindset is fairly benevolent, from what I've seen and read it isn't that way in larger more competitive economies like the U.S, U.K, Europe etc
Indeed we are extremely fortunate, even our poorest have opportunity, welfare and healthcare.


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## SirRumpole (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said IFocus the wealth is owned by 10% of the population, the rest are sliding more and more into poverty, the countries where the manufacturing is occurring are seeing their currencies strenghen as per Thailand etc and the wealth imbalance is happening there also.
> 
> The only way you can base sustainable wage rises is with improvements in productivity, to just keep increasing labour costs by increasing wages makes your product more expensive and less competitive against other countries therefore no one buys your product and you lose more jobs as the companies go broke.
> I think grasping the big picture is peoples problem, just throwing more money around  indiscriminately sounds wonderfull, and I'm all for it, but the end result is a Greece style economy, with poor public services and extreme poverty.
> ...




I think  UBI is probably inevitable if jobs keep being lost to overseas or to technology.


The spending power of the masses has to be maintained, otherwise the system falls in a heap.


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## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think  UBI is probably inevitable if jobs keep being lost to overseas or to technology.




You're probably right, but how it is funded becomes the issue IMO, it in some way has to be reflective of the underlying economy, otherwise the productive side has very little attraction to encourage people to work.
If humans had a natural propensity to work, it wouldn't be an issue, but the majority would rather be doing leisure activities, if that becomes a really attractive option, who picks up the trash?



SirRumpole said:


> The spending power of the masses has to be maintained, otherwise the system falls in a heap.



That is true, but as with your or my household, the spending part isn't a problem the paying the bill is. Sooner or later everything gets maxed out.
But it will be interesting to see how this is all addressed, my guess and it is only a guess, is that the public service will increase again. Conductors/Guards will return to public transport, Governments will have to take over a lot of the essential services again and go back to the future of re introducing nurses schools, attached to hospitals rather than university based training. If the electrical system becomes too difficult to make money in, which IMO it well could, the government will have to again become heavily involved.
Recycling will become huge and may well end up being a function of local government.
Keeping people actively employed and busy, is just as important for social stability, as having a universal wage. Young people sitting around with nothing to do, creates its own set of social and health problems. If you are going to pay them a wage, you are far better off inventing jobs, than just having them sitting around IMO
Certainly interesting times


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## Smurf1976 (15 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> We could well be the frog in the saucepan with the heat slowly being turned up. Unfortunately the so called protectors of Freedom; ie the Coalition are the worst offenders in taking away our freedoms. The other side has allowed them to do it.



Compare now versus 20 years ago and it's night versus day. Massive change in that time.

One particular issue now is that of individuals having lost the will to make any sort of public comment due to the reality that even a perfectly innocent, well intentioned and "neutral" comment has a good chance of being twisted into something perceived as offensive by and to someone.

As a trivial example to make the point, someone might say "that's terrible driving following the car ahead so closely".

The response then becomes "so you're accusing black people of being a danger to others and saying that only white men are capable. DISGUSTING"

Note that the original statement makes no mention of race or gender, only that whoever's driving that car isn't doing so safely. 

That's the sort of rubbish that passes for debate these days sadly. End result is most of those who could add something of value have one by one walked away. In my view that's partly why it's suddenly such an issue with social media - there's been a mass exodus of more intelligent comment which means the rubbish is now the vast majority of what's left.

As for the whole issue, it's rapidly coming to a head in my view. The overall circumstances of closed borders and social media in particular is very rapidly approaching a point where it has to go one way or the other.

Sort the Covid issue then there's no reason to not open borders. Any failure to do so would answer the question.

For social media much the same, it's coming to a head. Either government's going to act or it's not but the time to do so is very rapidly approaching where either some clearly stated policy and objective enforcement is required, governments intervene, or there's a defacto decision to do nothing but we're not far from crunch time realistically I think.


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## Smurf1976 (15 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> SP the total wealth in the US has never been higher, the move of manufacturing away from the US (still falling under Trump BTW) has actually brought move wealth and made products not previously available to the masses now available.



It may have increased wealth overall but there's an awful lot of people stuck working in low value service industry jobs or no job at all.

People who'd outright jump at the chance to work in any of the myriad of jobs which revolve around manufacturing from engineering to trades to marketing to design to management to manual labour they all beat the low value services sector hands down.

People with a practical, technical mindset are attracted to doing practical, technical things. I've known and worked with many and they're all much the same in that regard. They're usually reasonably good with money but it's not the key motivator.

Now those are the people that created every single aspect of the modern world in which everyone else lives. Every piece of technology from aircraft through to diamond saws came about due to technical people who make and do things.

The West simply can't afford to lose them in my view, there's far more at stake than just short term money.


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## Smurf1976 (15 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You're probably right, but how it is funded becomes the issue IMO, it in some way has to be reflective of the underlying economy, otherwise the productive side has very little attraction to encourage people to work.
> If humans had a natural propensity to work, it wouldn't be an issue, but the majority would rather be doing leisure activities, if that becomes a really attractive option, who picks up the trash?



One word.

INFLATION.

Ramping up the money supply in order to hand out cash whilst the availability of physical goods and services gets squeezed is a sure fire way to raise prices.


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## SirRumpole (15 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The West simply can't afford to lose them in my view, there's far more at stake than just short term money.




Absolutely. Once you start manufacturing in some countries you risk your intellectual property being ripped off, and soon the design and creation sectors are moving o/s too and you are left with nothing.

If there was no political competition in the world and ideas and the technologies were freely shared that would not necessarily be a big problem but the reality is that ideological differences exist which pose a security threat when technological capability goes elsewhere.


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## wayneL (15 January 2021)

We are kind of going a little bit off topic in this thread even if some of the comments observations are really good.

The topic is tyranny... Not just government tyranny, but also cultural tyranny and even intellectual tyranny.

I read a tweet yesterday which I now I cannot find that said, quoting as closely as possible as I can remember - "a trans female is also a biological female."

Now this ranks among the most anti-intellectual and anti-scientific comments I have read, but did I protest this fact in the particular echo chamber that I had happened to stumble into?

Not on your life, I would have been Twitter mod and perhaps even suspended by our tyrannical friend, Jack Dorsey (or will likely one of his ambiguously humanoid Green haired moderators.)

This to me as both cultural and intellectual tyranny... Me disagreeing with this person based on all established science would have been seen as some sort of acids and or Nazism of some or another phobia.

Blind Freddy can see that political tyranny is rearing it's ugly head in the United States (purportedly the land of the free and the home of the Brave). The absolute vast majority of Trump supporters are just ordinary conservative folks, people with families, who go to church, run a small business or have a job.... people who are interested in liberty but equally are willing to take responsibility for themselves.

These are the people, if they haven't already been persecuted in some way, are nowliving under the Sword of Damocles, wondering if they will be the next to be victim of the foetid hive-mind of the regressive left.

As much as the president elect was reading platitudes of unity from his autocue, the rest of his party was invecting (sic) threats of _persona non grata_, and even violence.

As I see it there are only two ways this can go. Either United States becomes a totalitarian state government by the radical/woke left, or there will be civil war.

My guess is the latter, but in the meantime it is going to be the clown world on steroids. Irrational hatred of Trump and by extension his supporters, buy an army of useful idiots, is going to be ample camouflage for a very toxic agenda to be advanced.

This is evident even here on the other side of the world and even here on ASF.

_Bonne chance_, Komrades.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> We are kind of forgoing a little bit of topic in this thread even if some of the comments observations are really good.
> 
> The topic is tyranny... Not just government guarantee but also cultural tyranny and even intellectual tyranny.
> 
> ...




Is political correctness a form of tyranny ?

Some would say yes.


----------



## wayneL (15 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Is political correctness a form of tyranny ?
> 
> Some would say yes.



It depends

If pc is discouraging people calling each other racist names, then no. If we legislate it then yes.

If we encourage discussion about acceptance of gay marriage, transsexualism etc then no. If we call people bigots for having a duscussion, then yes.

If encouraging a meritocracy exclusive of consideration of immutable characteristics or life choices, then no. If training white people to believe they, and only they,  are racist then yes.

I don't mind us changing our thinking through reason, but not through coercion or force.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> I don't mind us changing our thinking through reason, but not through coercion or force.



I'd argue that one side of the argument on a great many issues is effectively being silenced by force. Not the force of government that's true but the force of the self-appointed gatekeepers of what's wrong and right.

That basic approach has become extremely widespread and even applies now to trivial things such as art. If you're going to say anything even slightly negative, someone will twist that to being an attack on the artist personally or even on anyone of the same gender, race or whatever.

I spotted one recently where someone commenting on a music video, and observing that the themes were not typical of the artist's work, was then accused of sexism. Somewhat amazing given that the comment made no reference to gender, would have been relevant to either, and was simply an observation as to the artist's work and wasn't a criticism.

We've created a world where pretty much any comment on anything has a fair chance of being spat back as an accusation of some sort. End result is most have effectively been silenced, since even a completely objective and innocent comment carries risk, and what's left is the mob.

That isn't tyranny of government but I'd argue it's a similar concept, it's using an ever present threat in order to control others.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Irrational hatred of Trump and by extension his supporters, buy an army of useful idiots, is going to be ample camouflage for a very toxic agenda to be advanced.



Using Trump as the example, there's a vast difference between Donald Trump the man versus the ideas he's promoted.

Same as there's a difference between the artist and the art they produce.

Rationally, someone can be good friends with the artist despite not liking any of their work. Or vice versa, they can like the art despite not liking the artist's personal attributes.

Many seem unable or unwilling to differentiate between Trump as a person versus the concepts and ideas he's promoted.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> It depends
> 
> If pc is discouraging people calling each other racist names, then no. If we legislate it then yes.
> 
> ...




One example.

Billions has been poured into indigenous welfare over the years with the results being scant.

If one proposed an enquiry into where the money has gone and why the results have not measured up, the indigenous lobby would attack that proposal  as racist, which is why indigenous welfare spending is rarely questioned. Instead there are continual calls for yet more to be spent regardless of the results.


----------



## sptrawler (15 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Is political correctness a form of tyranny ?
> 
> Some would say yes.



IMO it is Rumpy, Im in no way religious, or homophobic, but I just keep refering back to the Isreal Folau, Margret Court incident. It just does my head in, that was allowed, cheered on and held up as some form of example to warn others not to speak their minds.
That ridiculous mindset, is the very reason violence happens IMO.
Australian media is becoming a very sad reflection on what Australia has lost, peoples ability to speak their minds, without being ridiculed, abused and shouted down.
If the media doesnt agree with you, you are toast, so many very intellegent people would rather say nothing, than be torn to shreds by a rabid pack.
Just my opinion, but as smurf said, social media is decending to the lowest common denominator, muppets.


----------



## wayneL (16 January 2021)

The tyranny of tribalism is something that I would like to bring up also.

It is worth noting that any person who disagrees even in the slightest way with their own tribe, if indeed they are part of a tribe, risks being excommunicated and cancelled for even the slightest transgression 

The culture today is replete with hundreds of thousands of examples of that, but probably most notably that of JK Rowling, who was Twitter mugged for having the temerity to refer to actual biological science with regards to participation in sport, inter-alia.

Well that's sort of crap goes on, and to be fair it is parts of both sides, we are doomed for division, continuous acrimony, and possibly violence.... Even civil war.

Perhaps for the ultimate benefit of some third party #tinfoilhats

In another thread I couldn't even get agreement that it is important for the election process is seen to be above reproach, the particular entity referring to disparage me instead.... that is some toxic shyte TBH.... a face to face discussion on these matters would prove to be interesting in my opinion.

Which leads me to the question, as has been asked) mentioned above; is social media, big tech, etcetera leading us into this dystopian world which we are definitely heading full speed into?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Which leads me to the question, as has been asked) mentioned above; is social media, big tech, etcetera leading us into this dystopian world which we are definitely heading full speed into?




Social media is doing us a favour in some ways by revealing the filth that is out there in society instead of it lurking in the corners.

The point I'm worried about is that it is encouraging deviant behaviour by encouraging the grouping of like minds, safety in numbers that sort of thing.

The sort of rubbish that QAnon serves up and the number of people that believe it is astonishing and worrying. I never thought that there were that number of simps and bogans among us.

So what do we do ? I think the tech giants need to censor qanon and the like when they can't back up their claims.

Fact checking and pointing out discrepancies, inaccuracies and just plain tripe is essential.


----------



## wayneL (16 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Social media is doing us a favour in some ways by revealing the filth that is out there in society instead of it lurking in the corners.
> 
> The point I'm worried about is that it is encouraging deviant behaviour by encouraging the grouping of like minds, safety in numbers that sort of thing.
> 
> ...



It becomes a slippery slope however, where do you stop the censorship, especially when the silicon valley platforms are governed by people unelected and who may have particular today political biases.

Should be censor critical race theory? How about critical gender theory? How about antifa? Fair dinkum communists? Flat earthers? And so one.

If oxygen is the best disinfectant then it applies to all points of view, including qanon.

The internet functioned better before big tech algorithms which promote echo chambers. people could debate about the merits or otherwise of almost any subject, in an open Town Square type forum.

algorithms have destroyed that and now that the tech firms have a political agenda, we have entered the age of censorship and digital tyranny.

Bad JuJu man, and there is no way that this could not result in violence of some order


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> If oxygen is the best disinfectant then it applies to all points of view, including qanon.




No, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that means shining the light of facts on the rubbish that people spout.


----------



## wayneL (16 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that means shining the light of facts on the rubbish that people spout.



Sunlight yes, that's what I meant.

Dealing with too much keratolytic disease this year.... it kind of analogous in a way.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2021)

By the way what is QAnon?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By the way what is QAnon?




It's a conspiracy theory that says That Donald Trump is trying to save the world from pedophiles.

Enough said ? Stop laughing anytime you like.









						QAnon - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a conspiracy theory that says That Donald Trump is trying to save the world from pedophiles.
> 
> Enough said ? Stop laughing anytime you like.
> 
> ...



Jeez, I've had five grandkids for the last week and am sitting with them as we speak, I can actually understand why parents run away from home, tomorrow lunchtime and it ends there is a god.


----------



## The Triangle (16 January 2021)

Tyranny is not the internet or the media.  Turn off the computer.  Dont read the paper. Problem solved.

Tyranny is being fined for not wearing a mask at a small airport in WA because politicians can't do their job over east.   

Tyranny is infected foreigners being allowed in to australia to hit balls when Australians still cant get home because flights are reduced.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> The tyranny of tribalism is something that I would like to bring up also.



Personally I see it as the same old crap in a slightly different guise.

They used to "bash" gays, blacks and anyone else who was different to the majority.

Still doing the same thing just with different targets at the detail level but it's the same old same old, single out anyone who's different and bash the crap out of them either physically or with words.

Old targets = homosexuals, other races and so on.

New targets = intellectuals and anyone who simply wants to hear all arguments for and against something.

Same pie just with different filling.


----------



## wayneL (17 January 2021)




----------



## dutchie (17 January 2021)




----------



## DB008 (17 January 2021)

.​


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 January 2021)

wayneL said:


>




They'll scream extremely loudly when the same tool accidentally smashes the heads of the other side as it inevitably will at some point.

Biggest mistake anyone can make in dealing with any bullying scenario is to think they're not on the bully's hit list. Ultimately, everyone's on it.


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

It's getting worse


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

Not to mention below the bint from NSW instructing us not to have a chat FFS.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> It's getting worse




It gives the restaurant owners some power to get every patron to use QR codes.
NSW is in big big trouble.

It only takes one person unknowingly contracting the virus at the restaurant and passing it on to many others without being able to be warned as they can't be contacted.

But you know that so I don't understand your problem with it.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Not to mention below the bint from NSW instructing us not to have a chat FFS.



? ?


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> It gives the restaurant owners some power to get every patron to use QR codes.
> NSW is in big big trouble.
> 
> It only takes one person unknowingly contracting the virus at the restaurant and passing it on to many others without being able to be warned as they can't be contacted.
> ...



Well include me out.

I won't be going to any such restaurant. We have a clear choice Knobby. The tyranny of unfounded fear, living literally in an Orwellian dystopia.

...or living with a little risk but with liberty (just as we always have).

I'll take the liberty thanks. My body, my choice. I will be the master of my destiny and will choose to be frightened or bold and the brownshirts and Stasi can get stuffed.

I'm with Ben Franklin.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well include me out.
> 
> I won't be going to any such restaurant. We have a clear choice Knobby. The tyranny of unfounded fear, living literally in an Orwellian dystopia.
> 
> ...



I think we have completely different mindsets. To me its like wearing a seatbelt.


----------



## IFocus (22 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well include me out.
> 
> I won't be going to any such restaurant. We have a clear choice Knobby. The tyranny of unfounded fear, living literally in an Orwellian dystopia.
> 
> ...





Do you carry a phone?

If so the world knows every thing about you, QR codes just speeds up the process.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Do you carry a phone?
> 
> If so the world knows every thing about you, QR codes just speeds up the process.



Not when I go into a restaurant.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well include me out.
> 
> I won't be going to any such restaurant. We have a clear choice Knobby. The tyranny of unfounded fear, living literally in an Orwellian dystopia.
> 
> ...



Welcome to Wayne's World.
Where conspiracy meets delusion. 
And rules are for fools.


----------



## IFocus (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Not when I go into a restaurant.





The phone likely knows, the data looking at peoples behaviour in the lockdowns is becoming quite detailed, given your online presence I would think your world is available should anyone care to look.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> The phone likely knows, the data looking at peoples behaviour in the lockdowns is becoming quite detailed, given your online presence I would think your world is available should anyone care to look.



Which is in itself tyrannical, and exactly the point I'm trying to make here.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> ? ?




This is how they see us overseas



@Knobby22 the women I was referring to is a couple of minutes in


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is how they see us overseas
> 
> 
> 
> @Knobby22 the women I was referring to is a couple of minutes in




Yea thanks , well it should have been a quicker shutdown and we wouldn't be in this mess.
Doing it at one death was too late. We should have shut down on the 4th person being sick.

We have lost someone in their 50s now and how many have caught it? Is it even 1000 yet?

The difference is our attitude to our citizens. The USA has had 1,000,000 deaths, though officially around 700,000.
And we have done better economically. Much better.

To use an alternate example, the main guy (producer) who came over here to run the "Come from Away" musical was visibly angry with his country when he saw how good we had it. His voice was very telling on the radio. Think he must have lost a family member.

(So many posts lately, you'd think half the country was in lockdown  )


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

Like I've said several times before, you've all been had.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2021)

So its all just obedience training.
You should look up the actual report.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> So its all just obedience training.
> You should look up the actual report.



Got an hour? This is interesting too.


----------



## IFocus (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Which is in itself tyrannical, and exactly the point I'm trying to make here.




I think you are too late.

Did you pay for the restaurant meal with a credit card?  Guess what?

There would have been CCTV in the street, car dash cams when you were on the road, oh did you use the car GPS?

If you passed a police car your number plate likely went into a data base.

Then most businesses these days also run CCTV over costumers and employees.

Still this all the least of your problems, Australia conducts secret trails, police can accuse you of terror related crime and hold you for months without charge in fact they can really fu(k you over, we wont let Australian passport holders back into the country, are we still the only country that wont let people out... unless you are rich or a politician or PM's mate?

But be careful... the lefts out to get you 🤣🤣


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think you are too late.
> 
> Did you pay for the restaurant meal with a credit card?  Guess what?
> 
> ...



It's the other way round bro, the right is gonna take out the left


----------



## basilio (24 July 2021)

Perhaps this is what Tyranny looks like. And the response to it.

*The Pegasus project                                         
*
When the Guardian’s head of investigations, Paul Lewis, first told me about a huge data leak suggesting authoritarian regimes were possibly using smartphone hacking software to target activists, politicians and journalists, perhaps the worst part is that I wasn’t particularly surprised.

The more we’ve learned about global surveillance, ever since the Guardian’s Snowden revelations in 2013, the more the world has become accustomed to the idea that governments, both democratic and otherwise, are keenly interested in using technology and the phones in our pockets to keep tabs on us.

*This week’s revelations, by the Guardian and 16 other media organisations working with Forbidden Stories, a Paris-based media nonprofit, illustrate the disturbing way that journalists, human rights campaigners, politicians and others can be targeted using spying software, or ‘spyware’.

The phone hacking tool, Pegasus, can gather data, record video using a phone’s camera, activate the microphone covertly, take screenshots and location information - all without the owner’s knowledge. A phone can be infected without its owner even clicking on an incoming call or message.

NSO sells its software to 40 governments around the world (it does not say which ones), and says its purpose is to help them investigate terrorists and criminals. But a leaked list of tens of thousands of numbers, many belonging to people with no apparent connection to criminality, and forensic analysis carried out on some of their phones, suggests some governments are spying on pro-democracy activists, journalists investigating corruption, and political opponents.*

Investigations such as these are legally fraught and technically complex, involving dozens of journalists, IT experts and in-house lawyers in multiple locations. Those being investigated are often highly secretive and extremely well-resourced, financially and technologically. They don’t want the scrutiny that courageous journalists subject them to. There can be great jeopardy in publishing things that powerful people do not want published.

And yet for the Guardian, such investigations are at the heart of our mission. Because of our independence, we are able to investigate boldly, putting the truth ahead of the agenda of an owner, investors or shareholders. And because we are reader-funded we have been able to keep our journalism open for all to read, so when important stories like this come along, everyone gets to read them.

From the Snowden revelations to our ongoing scrutiny of big technology, the Guardian has a long track record of exposing how technology can be subverted to abuse democracy and human rights.

If that is a mission that you appreciate, please do *join us today*. Your support will empower our journalists to continue scrutinising governments and others who exploit technology with a disregard for people’s rights.

                                                       Yours sincerely,                                                        

*Katharine Viner,* 
_Editor in Chief_ 
                                                       Guardian News and Media


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

Boiling frogs and the complicity of the terrified.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

Nice move, tyrants.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Nice move, tyrants.





Let's refer back to the AIDS epidemic.

What would you think if someone who knowingly had AIDS engaged in actions that could could transfer it to another person ?

This is a health epidemic and people have a right to know if their life could be at risk by close contact with another person.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

The world did not lock down because of AIDS

Equally, the same question could be asked of influenza.

But those small minority who believe they are at risk from covid should protect themselves and as a society, we should facilitate that.

Look at the figures and look at the figures of all other causes of death. To repeat ad nauseam you are being played for another agenda.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> The world did not lock down because of AIDS
> 
> Equally, the same question could be asked of influenza.
> 
> ...




I understand your concern about civil rights and privacy, but health should be a priority.

Most people agree with lockdowns as long as financial compensation keeps coming in.

If those are discontinued things will turn ugly.


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's refer back to the AIDS epidemic.
> 
> What would you think if someone who knowingly had AIDS engaged in actions that could could transfer it to another person ?
> 
> This is a health epidemic and people have a right to know if their life could be at risk by close contact with another person.



You can bet your bottom dollar that the anti maskers would not hesitate to grab for a mask if their plane was going down!


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I understand your concern about civil rights and privacy, but health should be a priority.
> 
> Most people agree with lockdowns as long as financial compensation keeps coming in.
> 
> If those are discontinued things will turn ugly.



Yes indeed, most people are bribed into believing lockdowns are the right thing. However it has been suggested that the ultimate death toll from lockdowns are about 4 times greater than death from covid.

therefore if people understood in actual ramifications of everything in toto, they would be against lockdowns.

Unfortunately most people do not have the statistical wherewithal or the critical thinking capacity to understand that.

Governments to understand that hence the current propaganda... And we shall soon see where that leads.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> However it has been suggested that the ultimate death toll from lockdowns are about 4 times greater than death from covid.




Can you provide substantiation of that ?


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yes indeed, most people are bribed into believing lockdowns are the right thing. However it has been suggested that the ultimate death toll from lockdowns are about 4 times greater than death from covid.



Zero evidence!


wayneL said:


> therefore if people understood in actual ramifications of everything in toto, they would be against lockdowns.



If we applied the UK's covid experience to Australia's population then about 48000 would have died from covid alone.
However, in the period up to 31 March 2021 (most recent official data available) only 33,575 deaths occurred in Australia from *all *causes.





The data speaks for itself and @wayneL's  ideas have no reasonable basis.



wayneL said:


> Unfortunately most people do not have the statistical wherewithal or the critical thinking capacity to understand that.



You haven't offered anything to suggest your points are valid!


wayneL said:


> Governments to understand that hence the current propaganda... And we shall soon see where that leads.



Conspiracy theorist extraordinaire.


----------



## IFocus (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yes indeed, most people are bribed into believing lockdowns are the right thing. However it has been suggested that the ultimate death toll from lockdowns are about 4 times greater than death from covid.
> 
> therefore if people understood in actual ramifications of everything in toto, they would be against lockdowns.
> 
> ...





Nope seen the numbers the other day death rate is lower than normal including suicide.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nope seen the numbers the other day death rate is lower than normal including suicide.



Sure?

Last year was a drop by 5%. But we had Jobkeeper/seeker.

The number of people in NSW who took their own lives in January 2021 is almost 30 per cent higher than the corresponding period 12 months earlier.
NSW government data issued on Friday shows 104 people committed suicide in January 2021, compared with 81 in January 2020.


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sure?
> 
> Last year was a drop by 5%. But we had Jobkeeper/seeker.
> 
> ...



Given there were no lockdowns in NSW in January 2020 *or *January 2021 whatever data anomaly exists for suicides would be due to other factors.
Your cherry picking is unlikely to earn you a living in the country.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Given there were no lockdowns in NSW in January 2020 *or *January 2021 whatever data anomaly exists for suicides would be due to other factors.
> Your cherry picking is unlikely to earn you a living in the country.



Job keeper ended. Your lack of awareness of mitigating factors knows no bounds.


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Job keeper ended. Your lack of awareness of mitigating factors knows no bounds.



Jobkeeper and Jobseeker ended at end March *2021*, which is 2 months after the data you quoted!
Please do better.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

WTAF?


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Jobkeeper and Jobseeker ended at end March *2021*, which is 2 months after the data you quoted!
> Please do better.



Sorry meant the debt relief measures.


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sorry meant the debt relief measures.



Really doesn't matter because you have:

cherry picked
missed federal support measures
not used labor force data showing the turnaround into 2021, and 
overlooked the continuous economic improvement occurring in the 6 months preceding the one month's suicide data you used.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Really doesn't matter because you have:
> 
> cherry picked
> missed federal support measures
> ...




No please go ahead and explain an increase of 30%.
Perhaps we can go through the figures on:

Access to crisis lines during lockdowns.

Mental health access.

Let's list anxiety while we are at it.

Specific industries flourished others couldn't hold out.

Let's go through those. 

Or perhaps you can admit that an Idiotic argument like  "covid had no effect on people or businesses" (like you seem to be stating) is in fact as dumb as it sounds.


----------



## orr (24 July 2021)

Does 


moXJO said:


> Sorry meant the debt relief measures.



Does that mean you're trying  to using  the kaleidiscope backwards ????  again??? Mox...

Thanks for your effort Redders... if only I had the time and incination.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

orr said:


> Does
> 
> Does that mean you're trying  to using  the kaleidiscope backwards ????  again??? Mox...
> 
> Thanks for your effort Redders... if only I had the time and incination.



Na multiple replies to another thread and had "Jobkeeper on the brain". I organised Jobkeeper/seeker for a lot of local trades so was aware of march.

The bankruptcy laws were changed in jan.

But seriously that's what weak ass argument you came back with. Get back in the kiddies pool.


----------



## orr (24 July 2021)

And i stay there to mox .... well with in my depth ....


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

orr said:


> And i stay there to mox .... well with in my depth ....



Yes... shallow


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think you are too late.
> 
> Did you pay for the restaurant meal with a credit card?  Guess what?
> 
> ...



the Left is always out to get you  it is called IQ envy


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nope seen the numbers the other day death rate is lower than normal including suicide.



 due to reduced numbers of people traveling and exercising  you have less chance of detecting the successful suicides  , so even the suicide rate might be currently flawed


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> WTAF?




 thank goodness i am not working hospitality anymore  , think of all those balcony doors that need extra  cleaning  after the departure 

 as if House staff don't have enough to do , already


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

BTW i hope the NRL staff remember this petty tyranny next season 

 revenge is best serve cold


----------



## IFocus (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sure?




Yeah, likely due to increased funding for mental illness by the federal and state governments for which they should be commended, it really stands out as many were expecting serious increases also note over all deaths dropped of as well maybe next year we will see an increase back to the average or higher as the flu and COVID are likely to get a good run through the community but then who knows.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> No please go ahead and explain an increase of 30%.



It's a cherrypicked statistic and totally meaningless because it may reflect any number of factors.
What if the next month is opposite, or the month after that?
Did you identify a trend?
The data is conclusive and your claim about suicides is totally baseless:





	

		
			
		

		
	
If lockdowns are increasing suicide rates why did they actually *fall by 4.8% in 2020*?
Should we instead proclaim that lockdowns are reducing suicides?



moXJO said:


> Perhaps we can go through the figures on:
> 
> Access to crisis lines during lockdowns.
> 
> ...



Nobody is saying that this pandemic is good, but it is you who is making claims that are baseless, and now you want to rest your laurels on the bleeding obvious.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> It's a cherrypicked statistic and totally meaningless because it may reflect any number of factors.
> What if the next month is opposite, or the month after that?
> Did you identify a trend?
> The data is conclusive and your claim about suicides is totally baseless:
> ...



Oh so we didn't have huge increases in hits to mental health access during.
The stimulus is what kept it low. Access to mental health facilities was still at a high. But that was mixed by loneliness/isolation. 

But let's clarify your argument first because you like to shift on the run.
Are you saying that lockdowns had no effect?


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Oh so we didn't have huge increases in hits to mental health access during.
> The stimulus is what kept it low. Access to mental health facilities was still at a high. But that was mixed by loneliness/isolation.



*I showed your claim to be baseless* several times as you kept moving the goalposts.
Now you want to move them again!


moXJO said:


> But let's clarify your argument first because you like to shift on the run.
> Are you saying that lockdowns had no effect?



I only responded to your baseless claims.
The pandemic has clearly caused great disruption to what we would otherwise regard as "normal".


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *I showed your claim to be baseless* several times as you kept moving the goalposts.
> Now you want to move them again!
> 
> I only responded to your baseless claims.
> The pandemic has clearly caused great disruption to what we would otherwise regard as "normal".



My claim that suicides were up in Jan are baseless?

And?


> If lockdowns are increasing suicide rates why did they actually *fall by 4.8% in 2020*?
> Should we instead proclaim that lockdowns are reducing suicides?



Clarify your position on lockdowns relating to suicides perhaps.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> My claim that suicides were up in Jan are baseless?
> 
> And?



The *basis *for your cherrypicked claim was false.
You want us to believe that seeing one swallow means it's summer!
Whatever you thought is inconsistent with data as the month you chose was anomalous.  February data was 19% lower and March data was 27% lower.  Moreover the overall trend is of a declining suicide rate based on population.  
One swallow does not a summer make.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> The *basis *for your cherrypicked claim was false.
> You want us to believe that seeing one swallow means it's summer!
> Whatever you thought is inconsistent with data as the month you chose was anomalous.  February data was 19% lower and March data was 27% lower.  Moreover the overall trend is of a declining suicide rate based on population.
> One swallow does not a summer make.



Once again clarify your position on lockdowns and suicides.

Mine is that lockdowns and continuing lockdowns will increase suicides.
Right now we have a buffer of govt stimulus.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Once again clarify your position on lockdowns and suicides.
> 
> Mine is that lockdowns and continuing lockdowns will increase suicides.
> Right now we have a buffer of govt stimulus.



You have no evidence supporting your claim.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> The *basis *for your cherrypicked claim was false.
> You want us to believe that seeing one swallow means it's summer!



Financial strain is generally 20 times higher probability of attempting suicide compared to other variables.

Turning off federal support was as good as any reason seeing the two coincided in Jan. 
There were many that did not recover after last year, despite the economy pumping through.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> You have no evidence supporting your claim.



Financial stress is a claim. Increasing mental health access, increasing anxiety.

What's your position again?


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

| Content



Toggle navigation
DONATEBUY TICKETS

New Kids Helpline data reveals spike in duty of care interventions​by: *yourtown* 09 Jun 2021 Media Releases

kids helpline
New Kids Helpline data reveals spike in duty of care interventions
Kids Helpline, a service of *yourtown*, has today announced that duty of care interventions to protect children and young people were 99% higher nationally from 1 December 2020 – 31 May 2021 compared to the same period a year ago.​A duty of care intervention is an instance where Kids Helpline counsellors make contact with police, child safety or ambulance services because a child or young person is deemed to be at imminent risk.
The escalation over the past 6 months across Australia is largely related to suicide attempts (38%) and child abuse (35%). 
Of note:

Victoria has had an increase of 184% in duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people. 75% of emergency interventions were for young people aged 13-18. For those aged between 5-25, 44% of emergency interventions over the past 6 months in Victoria have been in response to an immediate intent to enact suicide, with child abuse accounting for 31%.
New South Wales has had an increase of 40% in duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people. For those children and young people aged between 5–25, 44% of emergency interventions over the past 6 months in New South Wales have been in response to child abuse and 35% have been in response to an immediate intent to enact suicide.
Queensland has had an increase of 46% in duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people. 120 contacts regarding a suicide attempt was made that required counsellors to engage an ambulance or medical intervention. For children and young people aged 5-25 in Queensland, 40% of emergency interventions have been in response to an immediate intent to enact suicide with child abuse accounting for 31% of duty of care interventions.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

Regardless of whether suicides are up or not. We will see them increase with extended lockdowns or the effects of those lockdowns. If government pulls support which I believe it is doing.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Regardless of whether suicides are up or not. We will see them increase with extended lockdowns or the effects of those lockdowns. If government pulls support which I believe it is doing.



All you are doing is guessing.
How about some lotto numbers while you are at it.

Let's look at Victoria, which has had some of the harshest lockdown arrangements in the world:





The data clearly does not support you ideas on suicides.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> All you are doing is guessing.
> How about some lotto numbers while you are at it.
> 
> Let's look at Victoria, which has had some of the harshest lockdown arrangements in the world:
> ...




Yes I just posted on kids who don't work or received fed funding. How was that rate.

Lockdowns are currently burning between nsw/Vic what- $300million?
It's going to have an impact.

It's not 'guessing'. Every time we have an economic down turn, we get an increase in suicides. We are now compounding it with lockdowns and people disconnecting from society. 

I'm not advocating for removal of lockdowns either. Just there needs to be adequate federal funding if you are stopping people from working. And vaccinations need to be pumped along. 

Too many lockdowns, or prolonged lockdowns- then yes, I am saying suicides will go up.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

Oh and once again debt is a major contributor to suicide. How's Aussie debt and the lockdowns going together.

Do I need to post numerous studies or just a line chart?


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Oh and once again debt is a major contributor to suicide. How's Aussie debt and the lockdowns going together.
> 
> Do I need to post numerous studies or just a line chart?



Just show that your claims are valid.
We all know that things are not rosy, but you would have us believe that suicides are increasing massively - 30% based on only one month's data - and it's definitely not true.
You compound your mistaken belief with this:


moXJO said:


> It's not 'guessing'. Every time we have an economic down turn, we get an increase in suicides.



It did not happen in 2020.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2021)

So did any of our members march in the "freedom rallies" ?


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Just show that your claims are valid.
> We all know that things are not rosy, but you would have us believe that suicides are increasing massively - 30% based on only one month's data - and it's definitely not true.
> You compound your mistaken belief with this:
> 
> It did not happen in 2020.



Oh you want to hang on a throw away line. My query was "had suicides gone down"  and to point out January had an increase. 
That bankruptcy laws were changed in Jan coinciding with an up in suicide rates is a valid assumption.

Mitigating factors would be that the economy had federal surplus run through and held everything up.


Your position that you refuse to state seems to be ' lockdowns don't cause suicides'.
But since you refuse to state a position you can sneakily shift position. 

Previously you were blasting your pants that lockdowns didn't have an effect on suicides to Wayne. And since you refuse to clarify I have to assume that is your position.

I'm stating those assumptions are wrong.


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So did any of our members march in the "freedom rallies" ?



 NO .. i have health issues  , but i was there in spirit ,  and have watched a few videos posted by indendent content creators ( so maybe those 'views ' will count )


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Oh you want to hang on a throw away line. My query was "had suicides gone down"  and to point out January had an increase.
> That bankruptcy laws were changed in Jan coinciding with an up in suicide rates is a valid assumption.



Stop guessing.
In a comparable 4-week period to near-end January 2021 bankruptcies in NSW totalled 190 compared to 390 in 2020.


moXJO said:


> Your position that you refuse to state seems to be ' lockdowns don't cause suicides'.



Where is data showing your claim is valid?


moXJO said:


> Previously you were blasting your pants that lockdowns didn't have an effect on suicides to Wayne. And since you refuse to clarify I have to assume that is your position.



I don't make baseless claims.
My earlier post showed the relevant data.


----------



## IFocus (25 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So did any of our members march in the "freedom rallies" ?





First I knew was on the news so missed it.

Sincerely hope it doesn't cause a further break out.

Also hope the officers attending haven't been exposed to COVID.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Stop guessing.
> In a comparable 4-week period to near-end January 2021 bankruptcies in NSW totalled 190 compared to 390 in 2020.
> 
> Where is data showing your claim is valid?
> ...



Ok I'll raise you

"Although GDP has rebounded and is showing strong growth, the number of people reporting financial stress (difficulty paying for essential goods and services) has risen to 31 per cent – now exceeding the number of people making ends meet, at 26 per cent.

The proportion of people experiencing mental distress (feeling depressed and anxious most of the time) – is now 24 per cent, a record high since the survey started in April 2020.

Self-employed Australians report the highest levels of financial stress and mental distress. Fifty per cent say they are financially stressed and 15 per cent are only making ends meet. Almost half  – 47 per cent – are mentally distressed. Those on fixed term (73 per cent) and casual (77 per cent) contracts are more vulnerable to adverse income shocks.

The fortnightly survey from Melbourne Institute: Applied Economic & Social Research tracks changes in the economic and social wellbeing of Australians. The 28th wave of the survey was conducted from 1 to 6 March.

Professor Guay Lim, author of the report, said the results suggest that economic recovery is not being felt equally across Australian society.

“The data from this latest wave suggest that not everyone is seeing the benefits of the economic upturn and this is having a serious impact on Australians’ financial and mental wellbeing,” Professor Lim said."











						Financial stress and mental distress growing despite signs of economic upturn; satisfaction with government policy at all time low
					

Australians are experiencing higher levels of financial stress and mental distress, which has risen to its highest level since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic despite Australia being on the road to economic recovery.




					about.unimelb.edu.au


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Ok I'll raise you
> 
> "Although GDP has rebounded and is showing strong growth, the number of people reporting financial stress (difficulty paying for essential goods and services) has risen to 31 per cent – now exceeding the number of people making ends meet, at 26 per cent.
> 
> ...



As I said, we all know things are not rosy.
There is a difference between the bleeding obvious and what you have been claiming.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> As I said, we all know things are not rosy.
> There is a difference between the bleeding obvious and what you have been claiming.



So we can lock in that you don't think lockdowns cause suicides.
Why did I have to state "the bleeding obvious" when you were crowing for "data".
From what I read previously you don’t think there is a link and wanted to defend your position.

I stated my position. You have done everything to do the opposite.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> So we can lock in that you don't think lockdowns cause suicides.
> Why did I have to state "the bleeding obvious" when you were crowing for "data".
> From what I read previously you don’t think there is a link and wanted to defend your position.
> 
> I stated my position. You have done everything to do the opposite.



Your recent suggestion that that bankruptcies are linked to suicide numbers was back to front.
Remember it is *you *proposing that lockdowns increase suicides.
If that is the case then where is the evidence?


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Your recent suggestion that that bankruptcies are linked to suicide numbers was back to front.
> Remember it is *you *proposing that lockdowns increase suicides.
> If that is the case then where is the evidence?



I wasn't suggesting bankruptcy were the cause. I was suggesting changes to the law were a financial stress trigger to those already on the edge.

I've presented the evidence of why lockdowns will cause suicides and basically what will stop suicides. At least in my mind it should be easy to piece together. 

But let's wait and see. Because I damn well hope you are correct and I'm wrong. 

But let's face it. I'm always right.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I wasn't suggesting bankruptcy were the cause. I was suggesting changes to the law were a financial stress trigger to those already on the edge.
> 
> I've presented the evidence of why lockdowns will cause suicides and basically what will stop suicides. At least in my mind it should be easy to piece together.
> 
> ...



There is *no evidence from you* that lockdowns lead to or increase suicides.
Given that, many of your claims are just unsubstantiated opinions that you now hope will materialise some time in the future.
Even if the suicide rate were to rise in future it may have nothing to do with lockdowns.
The most recent available ABS data shows that annual suicide data has varied by as much as 500:




	

		
			
		

		
	
can


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> There is *no evidence from you* that lockdowns lead to or increase suicides.
> Given that, many of your claims are just unsubstantiated opinions that you now hope will materialise some time in the future.
> Even if the suicide rate were to rise in future it may have nothing to do with lockdowns.
> The most recent available ABS data shows that annual suicide data has varied by as much as 500:
> ...



Wow.
 You simplified it down to crayon eating and everything.
And you came back with a line chart to explain away everything (good for you).
I explained the general framework. Here's a bit more.



*In September-2020, among 1157 Victorians, one-third reported anxiety or depressive disorder symptoms, one-fifth reported suicidal ideation, and one-tenth reported having seriously considered suicide in the prior 30 days.*











						Mental health, substance use, and suicidal ideation during a prolonged COVID-19-related lockdown in a region with low SARS-CoV-2 prevalence
					

The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic has been associated with mental health consequences due to direct (i.e., SARS-CoV-2 infection, potent…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				





I'll go one further. Continuous lockdowns will be the biggest negative mental health impact for years to come. I'd say any suicide for the next few years might be directly attributed to lockdowns.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'll go one further. Continuous lockdowns will be the biggest negative mental health impact for years to come. I'd say any suicide for the next few years might be directly attributed to lockdowns.




That's a pretty broad brush . ANY suicide attributed to lockdowns ?

What about people with incurable diseases who don't want to have any more treatment ?

Chronic depression brought about by marriage breakdowns etc.

These causes have been present long before covid and will be there after its gone. (If it ever is).


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

Let's look at your claims on *suicide*:


moXJO said:


> I'd say any suicide for the next few years might be directly attributed to lockdowns.



No evidence that any to date can be attributable as suicide rates declined in 2020 and are fewer in 2021 compared to the same period in 2020.


moXJO said:


> No please go ahead and explain an increase of 30%.



See my point above (as I explained many times it was meaningless to use only one month's data).


moXJO said:


> Every time we have an economic down turn, we get an increase in suicides.



No evidence presented and this did not happen in 2020.


moXJO said:


> Oh and once again debt is a major contributor to suicide.



No evidence presented.


moXJO said:


> That bankruptcy laws were changed in Jan coinciding with an up in suicide rates is a valid assumption.



Except that bankruptcies declined in January, so your premise is false.


moXJO said:


> I wasn't suggesting bankruptcy were the cause.



In relation to bankruptcies you clearly said "an up in suicide rates is *a valid assumption*".

Everyone knows there are other issues of significant concern, but it irresponsible to make claims that are refuted by evidence.


----------



## Knobby22 (25 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That's a pretty broad brush . ANY suicide attributed to lockdowns ?
> 
> What about people with incurable diseases who don't want to have any more treatment ?
> 
> ...



Very little is black and white  particularly in mental health.

It is true the suicide rate has not risen but I don't think that would apply to depression. The damage to some people from lockdowns is terrible; broken marriages and forced sale of the home. The bankruptcy rates will rise. There has been government and bank protection short term.

On a side issue my son showed a tiktok video today of a protestor in Sydney bragging that he expects 1000 cases from the protest. These guys are generally selfish scum or dumb or often both.
As we saw in Melbourne, the enemy of small business. Smashing their demonstration.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> The damage to some people from lockdowns is terrible broken marriages and forced sale of the home.




That happens all the time regardless of lockdowns.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Let's look at your claims on *suicide*:
> 
> No evidence that any to date can be attributable as suicide rates declined in 2020 and are fewer in 2021 compared to the same period in 2020.
> 
> ...



Selective quoting and misquoting. You ate one too many crayons


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That's a pretty broad brush . ANY suicide attributed to lockdowns ?
> 
> What about people with incurable diseases who don't want to have any more treatment ?
> 
> ...




any suicide for the next few years *might*


----------



## Knobby22 (26 July 2021)

SBS reports over  10,000 calls to police from people recognising someone at the Sydney rampage. Amazing. Those Sydney siders are really really angry.

In some cases it was family. Imagine having your Mum ring up to dob you in!


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> SBS reports over  10,000 calls to police from people recognising someone at the Sydney rampage. Amazing. Those Sydney siders are really really angry.
> 
> In some cases it was family. Imagine having your Mum ring up to dob you in!



Disgusting. No concept of history.


----------



## IFocus (26 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Disgusting. No concept of history.




I know I will regret this... what history would that be?


----------



## SirRumpole (27 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> I know I will regret this... what history would that be?



Seig Heil ?


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2021)

Boot lickers have a long history. And it's often the wrong side of history. I'm not big on flogs that dob regardless. 

It's kind of funny though. If the crowd did mask up, they could have avoided identification by the millions of CCTV cameras throughout sydney.

Unfortunately mask wearing went against the spirit of the protest I suppose 

But looks like lockdowns may be eased so it must have spooked government.


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2021)

How Americans see our tyranny:


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2021)

So Scotty, you unchristian POS:

What smokers?
What about drug addicts?
What about the obese?
What about those with poor diet?
What about those who participate in dangerous sport?


It's not about health you bloody idiots.


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2021)

Indeed


----------



## wayneL (3 August 2021)

Your friendly neighborhood pigs, just following orders:


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Your friendly neighborhood pigs, just following orders:




Not a good look.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2021)

This is what I was worrying about. Government and bootlicking plebs seem to be enjoying it to much.


----------



## rederob (5 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Selective quoting and misquoting. You ate one too many crayons



You gave one cherry picked correct month where suicide deaths increased a year later, but at no time showed there was a trend (data showed opposite to your claim), and never linked any  actual suicides to lockdowns.
This week Suicide Prevention Australia confirmed that suicides numbers have *not *increased during periods of lockdown.
*"Fortunately, while there has been a rise in the use of mental health services and an increase in psychological distress there hasn't been a rise in deaths by suicide."*​
Lockdowns have been variously in place since well over a year ago and associated mental health issues appear not to have translated into increased suicides.  That might seem counter intuitive, but covid has triggered significant additional social and and economic safety nets, aside from evidence that people are increasingly  using social media to remain "connected" and informed:






​


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2021)

rederob said:


> You gave one cherry picked correct month where suicide deaths increased a year later, but at no time showed there was a trend (data showed opposite to your claim), and never linked any  actual suicides to lockdowns.
> This week Suicide Prevention Australia confirmed that suicides numbers have *not *increased during periods of lockdown.
> *"Fortunately, while there has been a rise in the use of mental health services and an increase in psychological distress there hasn't been a rise in deaths by suicide."*​
> Lockdowns have been variously in place since well over a year ago and associated mental health issues appear not to have translated into increased suicides.  That might seem counter intuitive, but covid has triggered significant additional social and and economic safety nets, aside from evidence that people are increasingly  using social media to remain "connected" and informed:
> ...



Give it time. Lifeline or similar received the most calls every. It's having a hugely negative effect. I'd be expecting another bump if current measures stay in place. I'm also wondering if we will bump when everything is lifted. 
Currently babysitting a crew as their boss is stuck in one of Sydney's lockdown hotspots.


----------



## rederob (5 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Give it time. Lifeline or similar received the most calls every. It's having a hugely negative effect. I'd be expecting another bump if current measures stay in place. I'm also wondering if we will bump when everything is lifted.



How many more years do you need?
Increasing numbers of vaccinations reduce your chances.
And still none of your points have any evidence backing them.


----------



## wayneL (11 August 2021)

I guess our resident brownshirts will be in support of this.


----------



## wayneL (11 August 2021)

Ever wondered how Der Führer became the Der Führer?

Will we get our very own Kristallnacht?


----------



## wayneL (11 August 2021)

Obama's thumbing of the nose at we plebeians bears this out:


----------



## IFocus (12 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> I guess our resident brownshirts will be in support of this.






Interesting but confusing, Brown shirts is normally used to describe Hitlers  paramilitary that attached trade unionists, communists, Jews and the like are you taking to yourself?

BTW what's your solution to someone refusing a vax getting COVID and taking it into a nursing home resulting in multiple deaths?


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Interesting but confusing, Brown shirts is normally used to describe Hitlers  paramilitary that attached trade unionists, communists, Jews and the like are you taking to yourself?
> 
> BTW what's your solution to someone refusing a vax getting COVID and taking it into a nursing home resulting in multiple deaths?



I have never attacked trade unionists or Jews, verbally or physically. And though I 
'm not so keen on communism, I would prefer to point out its folly verbally, rather than physically attacking.

But you knew that, don't you.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

Wondering who among our resident bedwetters are happy with this:


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

Or this:


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2021)




----------



## wayneL (18 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> View attachment 129181



Good luck figuring out who the misinformants are


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Good luck figuring out who the misinformants are



In Good Omens, a book by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett (now a series) , the 4 horseman of the Apocalypse are modernised so that pestilence now includes pollution!









						Good Omens
					

Synopsis:This fantasy series sees fussy angel Aziraphale and loose-living demon Crowley team up to form an unlikely duo. The two have become overly fond of life on Earth, and they are forced into forming an alliance in an attempt to stop the approaching Armageddon. To do that, they have to find...




					www.rottentomatoes.com


----------



## rederob (18 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Good luck figuring out who the misinformants are



It's not luck!
Anyone can use Dr Google.
And people relying on tweets rather than science for their information makes the job easier still.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2021)

Typical Misinformation. Journalist (who works for the Australian) caught out. Shame, it would have been a good beat up.
Oh look at the tyranny! We have to think of the children!


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

This has been going around Tw@tter for a couple of days without verifying the context, now apparently confirmed by AusPravda.


----------



## moXJO (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> This has been going around Tw@tter for a couple of days without verifying the context, now apparently confirmed by AusPravda.




I was wondering if this was true or not. Maybe it is?

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100385512?__twitter_impression=true


Na something else looks to be going on. Not enough details.


----------



## grah33 (20 August 2021)

We're starting to resemble ancient Rome .


----------



## wayneL (21 August 2021)

Mass Psychosis and Tyranny.

This is how the script goes folks


----------



## orr (10 September 2021)

I was hoping that this liittle number might have tickled along the quibbles of a few  here in the last couple of days;

*The “Identity and Disrupt Bill 2021”*

why all so quiet???


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2021)

orr said:


> I was hoping that this liittle number might have tickled along the quibbles of a few  here in the last couple of days;
> 
> *The “Identity and Disrupt Bill 2021”*
> 
> why all so quiet???



I explosive whinged about this govt raping digital rights a while back. This liberal government and the Turnbull government stomped on a lot of digital/privacy rights . They are some of the most sneaky back-door authoritarians this country has seen. 

Unfortunately Labor held hands in the deal so that should say something to the Labor rusted ons. 

I'd suggest voting greens (they have lost the plot as well though) or another center/left leaning party. Neither of the majors are trustworthy.


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2021)

Video of nsw cops doing a George Floyd on a poor Lebanese guy for apparently not wearing a mask.
 Worth watching to the end. Try to ignore that it's on a Latham feed.


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2021)

Youtube video link is easier


----------



## wayneL (10 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Video of nsw cops doing a George Floyd on a poor Lebanese guy for apparently not wearing a mask.
> Worth watching to the end. Try to ignore that it's on a Latham feed.




I am in no way a lawless villain, in fact, I am very law-abiding, when laws make sense, but I am increasingly becoming anti-police.. and whatever is behind their orders.

I saw that vid earlier, and I just want to find a cave, away from gov, away from cops, and away from complicit tw@ts.


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

A little tiny light at the end of a very dark tunnel. If only our judiciary had such cajones.


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

We seem to be toads in saucepans here in Oz... and as the world looks on.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> I am in no way a lawless villain, in fact, I am very law-abiding, when laws make sense, but I am increasingly becoming anti-police.. and whatever is behind their orders.
> 
> I saw that vid earlier, and I just want to find a cave, away from gov, away from cops, and away from complicit tw@ts.




No one likes it wayne, but there is such a thing as sacrifice for the common good.

_*I saw that vid earlier, and I just want to find a cave, away from gov, away from cops, and away from complicit tw@ts.*_

Excellent, that means you have less chance of getting the virus and spreading it. You are in the right State eh ? The Hermit State.


----------



## IFocus (15 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Youtube video link is easier






That's the Liberals for you   

Northern rich areas no worry's spread the virus out west they lock down and lock up.


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No one likes it wayne, but there is such a thing as sacrifice for the common good.
> 
> _*I saw that vid earlier, and I just want to find a cave, away from gov, away from cops, and away from complicit tw@ts.*_
> 
> Excellent, that means you have less chance of getting the virus and spreading it. You are in the right State eh ? The Hermit State.



I agree, however I do not agree the approach has been for the common good at all.

We are now a more divided and less wealthy nation, and really have only delayed be inevitable which other countries like Sweden have faced with maturity and a focus on societal cohesion.

And I am one that was unable to visit his own mother in the 10 days before her death earlier this year. She died miserable and alone because there was a handful of cases nowhere even near where she was hospitalized

Sacrifices for common good? Give me a break. The common good has absolutely been totally trashed.


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## SirRumpole (15 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> I agree, however I do not agree the approach has been for the common good at all.
> 
> We are now a more divided and less wealthy nation, and really have only delayed be inevitable which other countries like Sweden have faced with maturity and a focus on societal cohesion.
> 
> ...




I am sorry about your experience. It's a hard time for some more than others.


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## moXJO (20 September 2021)

As much as I hate media and found it funny that right and left seems to have switched between loving cops and hating cops. I am bewildered at how fast we licked boot in this country. 

The media should be appalled that their own were targeted. But I doubt it will get airtime. The media seem to be covering up and lying about a lot of stuff right now. Plenty of half truths getting thrown about.

Like him, or hate him. He captured and captures some great footage.


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## IFocus (21 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> As much as I hate media and found it funny that right and left seems to have switched between loving cops and hating cops. I am bewildered at how fast we licked boot in this country.
> 
> The media should be appalled that their own were targeted. But I doubt it will get airtime. The media seem to be covering up and lying about a lot of stuff right now. Plenty of half truths getting thrown about.
> 
> Like him, or hate him. He captured and captures some great footage.






No doubt about it the police in Vic / NSW look far more aggressive and seem to be a law unto themselves, I wonder what their injury rate is?


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## moXJO (21 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> No doubt about it the police in Vic / NSW look far more aggressive and seem to be a law unto themselves, I wonder what their injury rate is?



It turned the other way. People spoiling for a fight now. Sorry about the source.  But it's the best range of videos collected in one place that the mainstream won't show.


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## wayneL (21 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> It turned the other way. People spoiling for a fight now. Sorry about the source.  But it's the best range of videos collected in one place that the mainstream won't show.




This was always inevitable, eventually.


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2021)

In what universe is this okay?

And this is just one example of how gratuitously violent the coppers are getting.


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## moXJO (23 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> In what universe is this okay?
> 
> And this is just one example of how gratuitously violent the coppers are getting.




That idiot cop could have killed him. That's an extremely dangerous throw akin to swinging you at velocity into God damn tile and cement. I've seen a lot of guys not recover from this and end up brain damaged. I've been caught a few times and end up concussed and that's on training mats.

Absolutely disgusting from the cops....


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## wayneL (24 September 2021)

The footage of unwarranted and unnecessary violence by police against unarmed and not violent citizens just keeps coming... and FFS opening fire with rubber bullets? Just WTF?

And look at the military style outfitting of these violent &£#@s


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## wayneL (24 September 2021)

Another one to make the brownshirts happy


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## moXJO (24 September 2021)

What the hell is going on?
This ain't for damn safety, we are almost at vaccination targets. They are not going to this extreme in other Western democracies. 
This is a clear breech of rights.


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## wayneL (24 September 2021)

So brave


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## wayneL (24 September 2021)

Our resident ASF brownshirts will love this vid...


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## wayneL (24 September 2021)

This is the tragedy IMO, what they sacrificed, has been utterly squandered not so many years later... Here we are with a government-corporate totalitarianism... AKA fascism/nazism...

And most of the bozos alive today can't even see it.


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## moXJO (24 September 2021)

Someone said it's from the UK. I hope it's real and not staged.


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## wayneL (27 September 2021)

"The hermit continent"


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## wayneL (1 October 2021)

I haven't read the book and will not, but can anyone confirm or deny this please?


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## moXJO (1 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> I haven't read the book and will not, but can anyone confirm or deny this please?



Not true https://www.aap.com.au/conspiracy-theorists-depopulation-text-does-not-appear-in-great-reset-book/
Here's the book:
https://books.google.co.za/books/about/Conspirators_Hierarchy.html?id=gAUCAAAACAAJ


----------



## wayneL (2 October 2021)

Polish MPs protest at the Australian Embassy. Make demand to their Government to condemn Australia and arrange evacuation of Polish dual citizens from Melbourne due to deterioration of human rights.


----------



## wayneL (3 October 2021)

Just one more in a litany of ironies


----------



## wayneL (3 October 2021)

Ihre papiere, bitte.


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## grah33 (10 October 2021)

Regarding one of Wayne's clips from before, somewhere here ... It's exactly what I predicted.  Societies promoting sexualities against the natural order become rogue and brutal.  


The "my body, my choice " line is a great counter slogan , yet countless unborn children have had no choice, and so it's no surprise that the same is happening to society. Their protection would have protected us from an over- reaching government.  And it's better to be labeled a fanatic for supporting unborn children's lives, than to be fanatical for their termination.


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## moXJO (11 October 2021)

And not far off it this ridiculous stuff....



Not sure wtf these cops were trying to achieve " Ummm were you at a protest 6 months ok" 
Uh Huh. I want to know what dumbsht is answering "yes".


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## SirRumpole (18 October 2021)

A great example of tyranny right here.









						'I wouldn't have sold our family home': Helen lost everything fighting the ATO. A bill of rights may have saved her
					

Calls are growing for the federal government to legislate rights for taxpayers and reverse the onus of proof so that taxpayers are no longer deemed guilty until they prove themselves innocent.




					www.abc.net.au


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## moXJO (18 October 2021)

I miss this style of narration


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## Logique2 (20 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Ihre papiere, bitte.




Very true my dear friend..L


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## wayneL (24 October 2021)

Remind you of anyone, Victorians?


----------



## wayneL (24 October 2021)

Words cannot describe how much I love Gerald Celente....


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2021)

Sounds familiar


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## wayneL (2 December 2021)

Mao Tse Dan's monumental hypocrisy':


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Mao Tse Dan's monumental hypocrisy':




"Hypocritical corrupt dog"

Sensible and balanced opinion ?


----------



## wayneL (2 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> "Hypocritical corrupt dog"
> 
> Sensible and balanced opinion ?



Agree, totally unfair to dogs. However hypocritical and corrupt looks to be spot on.


----------



## moXJO (4 December 2021)

Was thrown this video link which I found feeds into this very fast slide into the "do as we say" era.

If it is true, there are a few points that seem to point to the fact that we actually are at the governments whim.

She lied about being tested and was allegedly punished. With what was basically  incarceration.

She was tested and was negative.

Was threatened into compliance with a $5000 fine.

Let's not speak about the ridiculous measures that are not backed by science.

The fine part sticks out, as these dcks in public service seem to think they can use it as a way to get the results they want. It's open to abuse.

No wonder the protest crowds are so big.


----------



## moXJO (12 December 2021)




----------



## wayneL (13 December 2021)

It's not about hEaLtH, Komrades:


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2021)

A good hard look at ourselves:


----------



## The Triangle (29 January 2022)




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## moXJO (30 January 2022)

The war on Joe Rogan continues.


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## wayneL (15 February 2022)

Canada jumps the tyranical shark.


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## moXJO (16 February 2022)

Push for third vax or you can't enter school grounds in Victoria. Despite the fact that kids are not a 'at risk' group.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Push for third vax or you can't enter school grounds in Victoria. Despite the fact that kids are not a 'at risk' group.



Do you hang around schools?


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you hang around schools?



Yes. 
I have kids at school.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Yes.
> I have kids at school.



And your vaxed and don't live in Victoria


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> And your vaxed and don't live in Victoria



Doesn’t mean I'm going to shut up about it. A dumb idea is a dumb idea. And I'll point it out.

No 3rd dose for me and not getting it till/if it's needed. Dan andrews had a change of heart anyway.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Doesn’t mean I'm going to shut up about it. A dumb idea is a dumb idea. And I'll point it out.
> 
> No 3rd dose for me and not getting it till/if it's needed. Dan andrews had a change of heart anyway.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 March 2022)

About Putin:

"He goes to bed at night thinking of Peter the Great and he wakes up thinking of Stalin,"

former US intelligence committee chair Mike Rogers observed in 2014


----------



## Knobby22 (4 May 2022)

Here we go again. History repeating.

Government getting into peoples lives. Repression.

*Roe vs Wade* to be overturned allowing the Government to ban abortions.

Obviously the next step is to ban/limit birth control such as the pill and revisit * Griswold v. Connecticut*.

And keep banning books such which has really taken off in Republican States.








						Efforts to ban books jumped an 'unprecedented' four-fold in 2021, ALA report says
					

The American Library Association says libraries faced the highest number of book challenges since they started tracking in 2000. Maia Kobabe's Gender Queer topped their list of most challenged books.




					www.npr.org
				




The USA is really losing the meaning of freedom. Lucky to live here. Live and let live guys!


----------



## wayneL (4 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Here we go again. History repeating.
> 
> Government getting into peoples lives. Repression.
> 
> ...



That's not actually what it does Knobby. The overturning of Roe v Wade rests on *constitutional grounds* and puts the decision-making back to the states as was the case previously.

Now some states may indeed ban abortion, but it should be noted that there's nothing to stop a woman crossing state lines if abortion is legal in another state, to have it done there.

In reality there would be very few states that would actually ban abortion although they may be limited up to a certain stage, and other certain conditions such as Florida has recently done.

The hysteria is reminiscent of the recent "don't say gay" nonsense, which the bill in question never even intimated at whatsoever.

The decision is correct and in accordance with constitutional law as mentioned.


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## Knobby22 (4 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> That's not actually what it does Knobby. The overturning of Roe v Wade rests on *constitutional grounds* and puts the decision-making back to the states as was the case previously.
> 
> Now some states may indeed ban abortion, but it should be noted that there's nothing to stop a woman crossing state lines if abortion is legal in another state, to have it done there.
> 
> ...



Its about the government wanting to control people.
But you are right, you can cross state lines. If you are wealthy this won't matter. Just catch a plane to Los Angeles.
If you are poor or very young and taken advantage of, well bad luck, single motherhood for you.
I find it oppressive.


----------



## wayneL (4 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Its about the government wanting to control people.
> But you are right, you can cross state lines. If you are wealthy this won't matter. Just catch a plane to Los Angeles.
> If you are poor or very young and taken advantage of, well bad luck, single motherhood for you.
> I find it oppressive.



You realise there is a separation of powers, viz legislative, executive, and judicial.

In this case the  federal judicial overrules the wishes of the federal legislative in favour of the state level of legislative power.

There is absolutely no compulsion in this decision to ban abortion whatsoever... None .. Nada... Zilch, therefore the assertion that this is the government wanting to control people is nonsense.

Interestingly the same people who are screaming pro-choice over this issue are the same people who were screaming in favour of covid "vaccine" mandates. What was that about oppression again?

For the record I don't have an opinion either way on abortion, I don't have any skin in the game so my interest is just in what is constitutionally correct.


----------



## The Triangle (4 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> You realise there is a separation of powers, viz legislative, executive, and judicial.
> 
> In this case the  federal judicial overrules the wishes of the federal legislative in favour of the state level of legislative power.
> 
> ...



Interestingly the same people who are screaming *pro-life* over this issue are the same people who were screaming *against *covid "vaccine" mandates. What was that about oppression again? 🙃


----------



## wayneL (4 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Interestingly the same people who are screaming *pro-life* over this issue are the same people who were screaming *against *covid "vaccine" mandates. What was that about oppression again? 🙃



Fair point too.

Once again, for the record. If forced to give an opinion on abortion on a legal/legislative basis, fair enough in the first trimester or thereabouts. After that I think you'd would need a pretty good reason to justify it. </personalopinion>


----------



## wayneL (4 May 2022)

While we're on this subject, let's mention voluntary euthanasia, perhaps even compassionate euthanasia?

Same issue, opposite ends of life.


----------



## The Triangle (4 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> While we're on this subject, let's mention voluntary euthanasia, perhaps even compassionate euthanasia?
> 
> Same issue, opposite ends of life.



I'd say both standard 'left and right' sides are at least reasonably consistent there.  But it all gets messy again with the death penalty.  

Left - pro choice (go have an abortion if you like, then get some help taking your own life 60 years later if you like)
Right - pro life (no abortion for you, no getting help taking your own life, get a rope and do it yourself).

I propose a happy compromise for Americans on the left and right....  Allow abortion - but men (birthing seed persons) don't have to pay child support if they didn't want the baby.   Would make things interesting.  

But I think no matter what side you’re on that sound arguments can hardly be made on constitutional grounds for things a constitution cannot and did not foresee. No one considered things like bitcoin, twitter or abortion when writing the original or when writing any amendments. The US constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on as there are too many amendments and obscure terms making it impossible to manage or interpret in a way that is acceptable to the majority.


----------



## wayneL (4 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> I'd say both standard 'left and right' sides are at least reasonably consistent there.  But it all gets messy again with the death penalty.
> 
> Left - pro choice (go have an abortion if you like, then get some help taking your own life 60 years later if you like)
> Right - pro life (no abortion for you, no getting help taking your own life, get a rope and do it yourself).
> ...



This is the reason for amendments to the constitution.  The factors in the Roe v Wade debate could actually be put to the American people in a constitutional referendum.

But a constitution is an absolute necessity in my opinion, as it is a crucial check in legislative power.

If a constitution is not working as intended for whatever reason, then that is the very reason amendments can be made, but must be made by the people and not the legislative branch.

For mine, I would like to actually see a referendum on this topic in the United states to resolve this issue. It does seem ridiculous that on such a topic it is ridiculous that each state would have its own laws even in a federal system, as it would seem to me to be a federal issue.

But I stress that a constitution is necessary as an ultimate check in federal power, otherwise tyranny reigns.


----------



## Eager (4 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> In reality there would be very few states that would actually ban abortion although they may be limited up to a certain stage, and other certain conditions such as Florida has recently done.



Nup. Somewhere between a dozen and a score of states would jump on the bandwagon in an instant. Bible belt/deep south/cowboy states would not hesitate. The governors of all red states would be tempted, TBH.


----------



## IFocus (4 May 2022)

Maybe the constitution  calls for such things but the court is stacked for political purposes and currently its the religious right hence the law being changed.

Really confirms my belief the US is heading back to the dark ages.


----------



## The Triangle (4 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is the reason for amendments to the constitution.  The factors in the Roe v Wade debate could actually be put to the American people in a constitutional referendum.
> 
> But a constitution is an absolute necessity in my opinion, as it is a crucial check in legislative power.
> 
> ...



I think the founding fathers would have done things very differently if they knew there were going to be 50 states and blacks and women would be allowed to vote.  

More things should be national votes but I don't think the US has any mechanism at the federal level (At the state level yes) for a legally binding vote by the people?  So if you did get a national vote on abortion - _whatever _side lost would just file a lawsuit claiming tyranny of the government using unconstitutional votes.  Then the other side would claim tyranny of the courts overruling the will of the people.  And then if the government got involved with court cases - well they'd be tyrannical leaders for overruling either the people or the courts or both.   The constitution is a good idea in theory, but just doesn't seem to work out very well.   It should have an expiry date - every 25 years.  Maybe that's what's best for 'merica.  Let it dissolve into 50 countries and see what happens.


----------



## basilio (5 May 2022)




----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> Fair point too.
> 
> Once again, for the record. If forced to give an opinion on abortion on a legal/legislative basis, fair enough in the first trimester or thereabouts. After that I think you'd would need a pretty good reason to justify it. </personalopinion>



Your view on abortion agrees with most Americans  but the third tier of politics has been politicised and the power of the judges is creating a new tyranny.

Abortion will now be banned in many states and will be in practice inaccessible unless you are wealthy.
New York concealed gun laws overturned despite being around and popular for nearly 100 years.

Justice Clarence Alito urged the court to next tackle contraception, ban gay marriage and bring in laws against gay sex.

 Shocked. There seems to be no limit to their power and they were not elected.

Someone should point out the the founders wanted to stop tyranny. If Justice Clarence Alito manages to get his way what do you think he will go for after that? He can go on making laws for many years.


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2022)

Conservatives are pretty much sending the US back to the stone age and its mostly on narrative of their own making dressed up in BS.

They sound more like Islamic Mullahs but using Christianity for power and directing the masses..


----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2022)

IFocus said:


> Conservatives are pretty much sending the US back to the stone age and its mostly on narrative of their own making dressed up in BS.
> 
> They sound more like Islamic Mullahs but using Christianity for power and directing the masses..



A theocracy.  I don't think long term public sentiment will allow this  to happen.


----------



## The Triangle (25 June 2022)

IFocus said:


> Conservatives are pretty much sending the US back to the stone age and its mostly on narrative of their own making dressed up in BS.
> 
> They sound more like Islamic Mullahs but using Christianity for power and directing the masses..



It's not conservatives.  It's 'populists' on the right. 

Conservatives for years we're happy with the status quo to ensure they had support and votes of those who were fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

its a dream scenario for the democrats as I think the supreme court just gifted them millions of additional votes (which sleepy Joe was losing).   Court packing looking ever closer if they win in November.  

As I've said before constitutions are stupid as they are based on the social norms of the time.   The US Constitution is a load of 💩if after all these years people still bicker over what things mean and how phrases should be interpreted.   It just allows lunatics on the left and right to exploit others.


----------



## Eager (25 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> In reality there would be very few states that would actually ban abortion although they may be limited up to a certain stage, and other certain conditions such as Florida has recently done.



Quoting this for the second time, now that the chickens have come home to roost.

The first time, I suggested that  "Somewhere between a dozen and a score of states would jump on the bandwagon in an instant."

The number of states that acted immediately to ban abortion, or will do so soon, is 13: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/24/us-...itute-abortion-bans-following-roe-ruling.html

If 13 is "Very few" according to wayneL, I'd like to see where he gets his information from.

Looking ahead, next on the list is -
Ban gay marriage
Ban contraception
Ban women from voting
Reintroduce slavery.

The D.S A. (Disunited States of America) absolutely NEEDS a civil war.


----------



## wayneL (26 June 2022)

I will admit to being surprised by the 13 states, but the above ranks as one of the most profoundly stupid posts I have seen on ASF.


----------



## Eager (26 June 2022)

That's fine, no prob, you're entitled to your opinion about my piece of theatre. It will be interesting to see what happens next though.

Regarding being surprised at the number, really? It was so bleedingly obvious to me that many cowboy/bible belt red states would follow quickly.


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2022)

Eager said:


> Quoting this for the second time, now that the chickens have come home to roost.
> 
> The first time, I suggested that  "Somewhere between a dozen and a score of states would jump on the bandwagon in an instant."
> 
> ...



Theres a total Ban in some states and a ban after 6 weeks and 15 weeks in others. Are 13 states going for total bans?

I don't support abortion after 14-15 weeks and even that is getting late.

I don't support a ban either as it creates a huge level of poverty, misery and abuse.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 June 2022)




----------



## wayneL (26 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> View attachment 143330



1/ Yes, but absolutely not because of SCOTUS decision.

2/ She wouldn't be going back to France.


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2022)

Good old WEF. Time to eat bugs apparently.


----------



## basilio (7 July 2022)

moXJO said:


> Good old WEF. Time to eat bugs apparently.




Good thing we have a proven, Australian researched, cattle food supplement that will dramatically reduce cow farts 









						'Like removing 100 million cars': Feeding seaweed to cows could help fight climate change — but there's a catch
					

A trial where cattle were fed a small portion of seaweed in their diet has reduced their methane emissions by up to 86 per cent. But some scientists warn we need to be careful not to create "another cane toad".




					www.abc.net.au
				












						How seaweed can help wounds to heal
					

They're in salad dressing, toothpaste and household paint. But did you know seaweed extracts can help wounds to heal faster?




					www.abc.net.au


----------

