# Modern Monetary Theory - MMT



## Ann (2 May 2019)

Ray Dalio is talking about Modern Monetary Theory and suggesting it is the way of future economics. He is a very interesting man and worth listening to IMO. This thread is simply a way to look at this aspect of economics and gain a better understanding of the concept. There may be a few offshoots of other areas of comment from Ray Dalio other than just MMT.
_
"The doctrine, known as MMT, says that governments should manage their economies through spending and taxes -- instead of relying on independent central banks to do it via interest rates. It also seeks to allay fears over budget deficits and national debts by arguing that countries like the U.S., which have their own currency, can’t go broke and have more room to spend than is usually supposed -- provided inflation is subdued, as it is now." More..
_




Ray Dalio


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## Knobby22 (2 May 2019)

Sounds a bit like neo Keynesian theory.
I agree, politics means that no one will do it though.


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## Ann (2 May 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Sounds a bit like neo Keynesian theory.
> I agree, politics means that no one will do it though.




I am not so sure about that Knobby. If you read Dalio's essay it sounds like something the New Green Deal are trying to push. This 'ecological' political agenda is getting a lot of traction helped by the increase in support for the political Climate Change agenda. Keynesian economics was more a lever than a policy as I understand it.

I was speaking on one of the global warming threads about the Law of Social Cycle.

It could happen. This is why I am beginning to study Modern Monetary Theory with the help of this thread.


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## Ann (2 May 2019)

*Modern Monetary Theory Finds an Embrace in an Unexpected Place: Wall Street*
_
The package of eccentric ideas known as modern monetary theory — for example, that annual deficits are too small, and that the United States can essentially print money to pay off its debt — has been on the receiving end of a remarkable level of vitriol.

In policy circles, heavyweight economists have churned out scathing attacks. In the business arena, titans like Laurence D. Fink and Bill Gates have labeled it “garbage” and “crazy talk.” And in academia, when the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business asked top scholars about a couple of its claims, they split between the 28 percent who disagreed and the 72 percent who strongly disagreed.

But M.M.T., as it’s known, is attracting a conspicuous number of fans in an unexpected place: Wall Street. Money managers, chief executives and business analysts maintain that the approach offers several important and overlooked insights, and far from finding it fanciful or deranged, they are using M.M.T. to build economic forecasts and even trading strategies. More.._


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## Knobby22 (2 May 2019)

He doesn't mention any green issues, Ann.

More about increasing money supply and giving it to ordinary people by directly employing people though building improved infrastructure rather than the system where you use lower monetary policy to increase demand by giving banks more money which they are meant to lend and which has clearly failed in the USA. I agree with this comment.

He uses the Depression example with Roosevelt which also occurred in Australia from what I have read.

The thing I don't like is the way he wants to print money, he even admits it, can you trust the governments?
What if someone got in the Presidency with no economic background who just shoots from the hip for short term gain. (Though this is unlikely) (note sarcasm).


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## Ann (2 May 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> He doesn't mention any green issues.



He would want to avoid mentioning any green issues for fear of being called out as a green activist and muddy an economic argument.



Knobby22 said:


> What if someone got in the Presidency with no economic background who just shoots from the hip for short term gain. (Though this is unlikely) (note sarcasm).



Couldn't happen Knobby, the US voters are too intelligent for that! (note sarcasm)


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## Ann (2 May 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> The thing I don't like is the way he wants to print money, he even admits it, can you trust the governments?




Pauline Hansen wants/wanted to print money as well.


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## ducati916 (4 May 2019)

This chap https://www.pragcap.com/cant-debunk-mmt/ has been writing/discussing MMT for about 10yrs.

When I first came across him, he was very pro-MMT. Seems somewhat less so now.

Re. his position that MMT cannot be debunked because it has never been tried. I would argue that that is incorrect. The theory or a priori reasoning of MMT proposed [largely] by Warren Mosler can very much be debunked employing economic principles.

jog on
duc


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## qldfrog (4 May 2019)

I think this is the policy used in Zimbabwe or Venezuela, but with the added Clause :we are different
Much an irresponsable socialist dream
Should and will end up in complete collapse of a currency value 
But what the heck, same results as current monetary policies ,a different fat cats, and allow you to buy votes
Will soon be around in your next leftist agenda...


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## ducati916 (5 May 2019)

Ann said:


> Ray Dalio is talking about Modern Monetary Theory and suggesting it is the way of future economics. He is a very interesting man and worth listening to IMO. This thread is simply a way to look at this aspect of economics and gain a better understanding of the concept. There may be a few offshoots of other areas of comment from Ray Dalio other than just MMT.




So looking at one of his arguments:



_We think that interest rate cuts and QE will be significantly less effective in the next downturn for reasons we’ve described in depth elsewhere. We also don’t believe that monetary policy is producing adequate trickle-down. QE and interest rate cuts help the top earners more than the bottom (because they help drive up asset prices, helping those who already own a lot of assets). And those levers don’t target the money to the things that would be good investments like education, infrastructure, and R&D._

He admits 'asset price inflation', which is: housing, financial assets [stocks, bonds], collectibles [art, cars, etc]. What he failed to mention were the increase in prices of groceries, petrol, rent and almost anything else that you can think of. Really the only thing that didn't go up in price, was wages. If you look at the Federal Reserve tracking of inflation, barring a blip down in 2008, inflation goes in one direction...straight up. What we don't have is the wage-price inflation of the 1970's.

In the next breath;

_Funding such things with money printed by the central bank means that the government doesn’t have to worry about the classic problem of the larger deficits leading to more debt sales leading to higher interest rates because the central bank will fund the deficits with monetization (QE). As we’ve described several times before and have seen since the 2008 financial crisis, such monetization won’t cause too much inflation. _

Denies inflation.

Which means either: (a) he does not really understand inflation, which I doubt, or (b) the only inflation that he is concerned about is wage-price inflation, which in dislocations causing [massive] unemployment is a non-issue.

_That is because inflation is determined by the total amount of spending divided by the quantity of goods and services sold. If the printed money simply offsets some of the decline in credit and spending that happens in an economic downturn, then it won’t produce inflation, _

Simply incorrect.

Inflation must take into account the total volume of money and money substitutes in addition to the above. This is usually demonstrated as 'money velocity'.

But in an economic downturn, the volume of goods and services will contract. More money and money substitutes competing for less goods and services, mean that the price [demand v supply] will rise, as evidenced.




jog on
duc


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## Ann (5 May 2019)

Thanks duc, I would love to hear more from you about this. 

I agree with him about "_We think that interest rate cuts and QE will be significantly less effective in the next downturn" _because they really have nowhere to go.

I have always found the concept of official 'core' inflation figures to be dodgy as they 'exclude' those essential things we need for survival such as food! 

_ The US annual inflation rate rose to 1.9 percent in March 2019 from a two-and-a-half-year low of 1.5 percent in the previous month, slightly above market consensus of 1.8 percent. Food prices rose at faster pace while energy deflation eased. The core inflation rate, which excludes volatile items such as food and energy, edged down to 2 percent from 2.1 percent in February, just below forecasts of 2.1 percent. Inflation Rate in the United States averaged 3.26 percent from 1914 until 2019, reaching an all time high of 23.70 percent in June of 1920 and a record low of -15.80 percent in June of 1921.ref._


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## Ann (11 May 2019)

Please understand I am not taking a position on MMT at this time, merely trying to get a firm grasp of the theory in words I can understand. I have no desire to enter a debate but I would value anyone who has a contra or pro view commenting on anything I put up here.


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## Ann (11 May 2019)

*3 Characteristics of MMT*

(What is Fiscal Policy)


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## Ann (11 May 2019)

*The Truth About Modern Monetary Theory (w/ Richard Wolff)*


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## Ann (11 May 2019)

Here is Ray Dalio with a cartoon Primer on the economy even a ten year old could understand. Warning! This is highly simplistic and may offend the more economically sophisticated amongst us! 

*How The Economic Machine Works by Ray Dalio*


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## Ann (12 May 2019)

In an effort to give balance to this thread....

*The Three Stages of Modern Monetary Theory*
_
*Stage One: Yielding to Dreamers*

Some ideas are so bad they’re best ignored.  Like resentments – or stray cats – if you don’t feed them, they’ll go away.  Before long, they’re forgotten altogether.


That has been our approach to Modern Monetary Theory (MMT).  The idea’s so obviously foolish, reckless, and outright suicidal.  Why feed this dorkus maximus of economic thought?


Alas, there are times when promises of social utopia prove too intoxicating to pass up.  It doesn’t matter if the promises are absolute fantasy.  When hopes are diminished beyond redemption, any old falsehood will warm the hearts and soften the minds of otherwise intelligent people to ideas of pure madness. More..._


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## ducati916 (18 May 2019)

Ann said:


> In an effort to give balance to this thread....
> 
> *The Three Stages of Modern Monetary Theory*
> _
> ...





It addresses the 'history', but the underlying fundamental principles of why MMT is poor theory are not addressed.

1. If there is no 'money', then exchange of goods/services is direct. I need bread, I can offer my service of labour. If the person offering bread does not need [my] labour, no exchange will take place.

2. If there is 'money', now indirect exchange can take place. I offered labour to 'X' for $1. I completed the labour he gave me $1. The transaction is not complete from my point of view. I have $1 ready to exchange for bread. That $1 is merely a means to an end, of obtaining bread.

3. I exchange my $1 for bread. My transaction is now complete. The baker, who received my $1, has an open transaction, the $1 standing ready to complete his desired exchange.

4. The point being: 'money' is a good that facilitates indirect exchange.When exchanged, it retains the ability to transact at a later date, if the goods/services desired are not then available.

5. It has an exchange value and it [to a point] acts as a store of value, its fluctuations respond to the change in availability of goods. Herein lies the theory of credit and the time value of money: another significant reality of money that is beyond the scope of this post.

6. Money is not in of itself 'wealth': ie. it is not a good or service that is a consumption good. Its function is to facilitate trade through the mechanism of indirect exchange.

7. For this function, the volume of money in circulation is irrelevant. Money, 'X' quantity, will adjust through the function of price, relative exchange ratios with all goods/services.

8. If on a desert island there is a single $1 coin that can be used to facilitate exchange between the only two inhabitants, when direct exchange is not possible, for example, I fish, but have been ill, so I have no fish currently, but, from a previous exchange I have the $1 coin: I can exchange that coin for berries, providing the coin, knowing that when I have fish, my neighbour can present the coin for some of my catch.

9. Those ratios will be fairly consistent, 3 fish for the coin +/- on availability of fish. If I have many fish, it may rise, $1 = 5 fish. Less in hard times.

10. What happens if while fishing, I catch a fish that has a second $1 coin in its entrails? 

11. The money supply is doubled. All the ratios change. Less goods will be available per coin. The price has risen. That is inflation.

12. MMT through manipulating the volume/supply of money does nothing to increase the wealth of an economy. There is no more 'sustainable' production of consumer goods. There is only an increase/decrease in the supply of money, which is irrelevant to money performing its task - the indirect exchange of goods.

13. Even when 'money' flows to production goods, which is where the time value of money and credit step into the picture, there is no requirement to change the volume of money: in fact by doing so, you distort market signals and waste valuable resources.

Obviously, there is a great more detail required to fully explain the concept. Many books have been written on the subject.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (20 May 2019)

Thanks duc, as you say, there has been much written on this subject and also many debates from various economic schools. In my simplistic mind, I see the need for fiat (or an exchange token) once we get beyond a small community bartering system. 

I came across an interesting (to me) chart today. It was a historical chart showing the net savings of various sectors. I was more interested in the chart than the article as it was an historic chart.
What I found so interesting about it was after the stockmarket crash in 1929, note how long the government took to put money into the community (as seen by reduced government savings). It wasn't until 1944. Then look at the recent crash we had in 2008, they immediately pushed money into the community (as seen by reduced government savings) and may well have saved us from a far worse depression than the 1930s. However I could see a situation where if the government kept pushing money into the community, the impetus for private saving would fall away and might well have a de-stabilizing impact if there is a need for people to have some personal financial protection as in the recent government shutdown in the US.  


Ref:


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## Ann (3 June 2019)

I am going to keep looking at this until I am totally comfortable with understanding it. It is likely to become more simplistic as we go along. Apologies to those who have already a firm grasp.
I found this video interesting...


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## ducati916 (5 June 2019)

So some comments on the first 6 mins.

*Government is not like a household.
*
Well actually it is.

The argument put forward is that it [government] can always print more money, viz. fiat currency, viz. circulating credit. Yes it can. So what?

Wealth is not 'money'. Wealth is the production of goods and services. You cannot create wealth by printing fiat currency.

Take your desert island with 2 inhabitants: neither of them work to gather food, build shelter etc. But they have discovered a printing press that can print paper money with enough ink/paper in the machine to print up a significant amount of cash. What is that cash worth, apart from possibly fuel for a fire?

The value of money is simply that it facilitates indirect exchange, allowing essentially a credit transaction to take place.

I will exchange my labour [or anything produced] for cash, that at a later date, I can exchange to fulfil my demand for XYZ.

MMT can only function in the short term [assuming production of goods and services exist] predicated on the trust that is invested in 'sound' money. Once that trust is gone through inflation, you enter into the extreme cases, hyperinflation.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (5 June 2019)

ducati916 said:


> Take your desert island with 2 inhabitants: neither of them work to gather food, build shelter etc. But they have discovered a printing press that can print paper money with enough ink/paper in the machine to print up a significant amount of cash. What is that cash worth, apart from possibly fuel for a fire?




Thanks duc, your comments are a great help. 

Looking at it another way, let's say while I was on the desert island I had access to a computer and traded my way into wealth and had a surplus of dividends flowing in to my bank account for which I actually had to do nothing, it just kept flooding in. This would allow me to pay for a cruiser to come and pick us up and take us home. Having got home, I felt concern for my fellow islander who was no good at making money in the markets but I felt duty bound after what we went through together to give him a job as a handyman around my home and paid him above and beyond what I would normally expect to pay. He is happy doing his menial tasks and I am happy sitting on my bottom doing sweet fannie addams other than working out ways to invest my ever growing pile of cash. 

This is sort of what I am beginning to feel about the meaning of MMT.....so far.


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## ducati916 (6 June 2019)

Ann said:


> Thanks duc, your comments are a great help.
> 
> Looking at it another way, let's say while I was on the desert island I had access to a computer and traded my way into wealth and had a surplus of dividends flowing in to my bank account for which I actually had to do nothing, it just kept flooding in. This would allow me to pay for a cruiser to come and pick us up and take us home. Having got home, I felt concern for my fellow islander who was no good at making money in the markets but I felt duty bound after what we went through together to give him a job as a handyman around my home and paid him above and beyond what I would normally expect to pay. He is happy doing his menial tasks and I am happy sitting on my bottom doing sweet fannie addams other than working out ways to invest my ever growing pile of cash.
> 
> This is sort of what I am beginning to feel about the meaning of MMT.....so far.





The point of using an example or model of a desert island, is to simplify the economic variable being studied. It is easier to understand what happens between limited numbers of participants, rather than whole economies.

So the point is: without goods and services, money has no utility.

So to your example: because MMT is not wealth, nor create wealth, there are no computers, no ships...there is nothing except an endless flow of paper money and you will still be stuck on the island.

An axiom of money is: any amount [value] will serve the purpose [function] of money. All that happens is that the exchange value of money is calculated against the exchange value of goods and services. 

When there is a low volume of money: you get more goods, services per unit of money.
When a high volume of money: you get less goods, services per unit of money.

Therefore in an economy that has goods, services, these prices have adjusted to the existing volume of money.

You suddenly add an increased volume of money certeris parabis and then the prices readjust, viz. less goods, services per unit of money, or what is commonly known as inflation.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (6 June 2019)

ducati916 said:


> You suddenly add an increased volume of money certeris parabis and then the prices readjust, viz. less goods, services per unit of money, or what is commonly known as inflation.






ducati916 said:


> So the point is: without goods and services, money has no utility.




Yes, I can see that and these are discussions I had years ago with someone deeply into the Austrian school of economics. He explained the two different types of inflation...Inflation to the money supply and the other inflation is to the prices of goods. Currently the economists are using the term 'disinflation' for the world economies, I guess it sounds better than deflation which tends to be more frightening I guess. When there is inflation the interest rates go up so reducing the demand for money to reign back inflation of goods, I guess the opposite is true at the moment. 

One could muse once the interest rate goes to zero or minus what will happen then, massive deflation?

Perhaps MMT is a way of putting money into the hands of the folks who spend it and build more infrastructure and products people need like affordable housing and supported accommodation for the drug addicted and perhaps free healthcare. All these would create productive work which in turn would inject more money into a deflationary/disinflationary economy. The fiat money supply would need to be inflated as there is more demand for it to buy more stuff which in turn would help the GDP.

Dunno, just the musings of one who knows little about this stuff. Your thoughts duc?


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## ducati916 (9 June 2019)

Ann said:


> Perhaps MMT is a way of putting money into the hands of the folks who spend it and build more infrastructure and products people need like affordable housing and supported accommodation for the drug addicted and perhaps free healthcare. All these would create productive work which in turn would inject more money into a deflationary/disinflationary economy. The fiat money supply would need to be inflated as there is more demand for it to buy more stuff which in turn would help the GDP.
> 
> Dunno, just the musings of one who knows little about this stuff. Your thoughts duc?




I think you are missing the central point which is 'money' does not create goods and services. Goods and services are the driving force or wealth of an economy.

So let's take one of your examples: free health care. To provide free health care you will need:

(a) land to build your hospital/infrastructure on; and
(b) someone to design your hospital; and
(c) someone to build your hospital; and
(d) equipment, which requires someone to design/build the equipment and transport it etc; and
(e) staff (doctors, nurses, cooks, physios, cleaners, etc) and have their wages paid etc; and
(f) consumables (food, drugs, drink, dressings, etc); and

The list goes on and on.

So in our economy, which operates on a money basis, all of those costs are met by in this example government. The government collects/earns/creates its money by:

(a) exchanging goods and services that we produce, for money, which we then exchange for something on the above list; or
(b) increasing taxation; or
(c) borrowing; or
(d) creating new money.

So: (b) is not free, the taxpayer pays. The taxpayer earns their money by exchanging their goods and services for money and having that money taxed away to government, who then provide from the original list, healthcare. Clearly not free. Simply redistribution.

Neither is (c) free. A loan needs to be repaid + interest. Again, someone must earn [exchange goods services for money] to service the loan.

As far as (a) is concerned, some would have that the Police/Army etc and suchlike are services provided by the State. So let's accept that a certain % of taxes are earned by government. If we had a payment dedicated and clearly allocated to those services [at cost], then there will be a shortfall when you look at providing 'free' whatever, in this case healthcare.

So option (d): by simply creating new money, suddenly the government is flush. It can now provide the free whatever, this is the theory of MMT and all inflationary theories.

All that has happened is that government has increased the volume of fiat money in the system. There are no increases in the volume of goods and services and now resources. They are the same. So what happens?

The government undertakes to provide free healthcare and because more money is required in starting from scratch, [from our list] that is the way they choose.

Land is purchased for a hospital. That land might have been used for something else, but government can, if required bid the price higher than any other buyer, because they simply create money. The same happens with each item on the list.

The net effect is that resources are consumed by government at [usually] inflated prices through the increase in the volume of money and resources, goods, and services which are now re-allocated towards the government's largesse, removing them from the area of the economy they were previously employed.

MMT talks about providing the bottom of the food-chain consumers [you and me], free new money. Exactly the same phenomenon occurs, but it is far harder to see and understand.

Take a product: coffee.

It is produced through stages from growing it, to all the stages inbetween, to the shelf on the supermarket, where we, the end consumer buy it.

At each stage of production, there will be a profit earned to each stage of production, that is roughly equivalent in % terms. This is so because if it were not, then those factors and stages of production would move to the area of greatest profit, let's say coffee on the supermarket shelf.

If/when that happened, the area vacated, or all other areas, would:

(a) in the short term reduce their supply or their supply could not match the demand to the more profitable stage; and
(b) their prices would rise as the consumer demanded more coffee; and
(c) over time, the vacated areas would attract new producers to fill the gaps in production.

Where do those new producers come from? Other areas of the economy, that are less profitable. For example, let's say I'm in trucking and I used to haul bricks to building sites. Now, I'll haul coffee from producers to supermarkets. The brick producer will either have to match or exceed the payment from the coffee chap to get me back.

Now obviously, give free money to all consumers, they will spread the love so to speak. Again, the final stage of production, sales to the consumer become the most profitable across the whole range.

Some [many] of those products will have vertical production [supply] chains. The demand from consumers goes up from the free money, across the board. Supply stays constant. Some producers may move to the final stage to try and cash in, reducing supply, some will stay put and simply increase their prices to once again, return profit levels to the equilibrium of previous levels.

The result is that you simply have a rise in prices generally. Prices will not stay constant, for all the reasons above and they will not fall, because there is no increase in supply above demand.

The consumer, who had that free money, is no better off than a one time gift, as the general price rise eats up any benefit gained. In fact, they are worse off because with the general price rise, they remain at their pre-gift levels of earnings, but now prices are higher.

So another injection of cash, rinse and repeat, until you reach a critical point and create a hyper-inflation which destroys that fiat currency and topples the government, unless they are a military junta.

Money is simply a tool, not a means to an end re. wealth.

That is the massively simplified version of essentially the theory of the natural rate of interest.

There is no free lunch.

jog on
duc


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

Anyone feel different about MMT as the economy has ticked on?


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## wayneL (15 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Anyone feel different about MMT as the economy has ticked on?



No, it's a dumb idea. Like socialism/communism, it cannot work in a liberal society. It can only exist in a authoritarian/totalitarian regime.


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> No, it's a dumb idea. Like socialism/communism, it cannot work in a liberal society. It can only exist in a authoritarian/totalitarian regime.



I thought the idea seemed fantastical when I first heard it but my engineering instincts kicked in and I started to  think it sounded more like the economics version of perpetual motion at no energy cost.

Still some highly educated people and high level government officials stand by it and the theory has even filtered down to the layman like myself.

Surely the current world economic situation should give more evidence to support or refute it?

The whole thing is fascinating in its simplicity, if it's real all economic problems are solved like cold fusion would solve the energy problem.


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## wayneL (15 April 2022)

The fundamental principle of money is that it is a unit of account of somebody's production. The motivation to create money *is production, no matter how tangential that has become in modern society.

Like pure socialism, mmt removes that connection and therefore the motivation for people to produce beyond what is mandated for them to do by the state.

What you will end up with is some mongrel cross bred society somewhere between  "Idiocracy" and "Nineteeneightyfour".


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## tech/a (15 April 2022)

The Deficit Myth
					

Booktopia has The Deficit Myth, Modern Monetary Theory and How to Build a Better Economy by Stephanie Kelton. Buy a discounted Paperback of The Deficit Myth online from Australia's leading online bookstore.




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Sovereign Countries have a license to print money and a license to cancel their debt to themselves.
One of the main reasons the UK wanted out of the European Union.
If they owed money to the EU they couldn't write it off.


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> What you will end up with is some mongrel cross bred society somewhere between "Idiocracy" and "Nineteeneightyfour".




Have said elsewhere the type of society you describe will be welcomed by the majority.


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## qldfrog (15 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Have said elsewhere the type of society you describe will be welcomed by the majority.



Sadly yes, look at french elections...majority will reelect macron as opposed to facing the issues


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## divs4ever (15 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> The fundamental principle of money is that it is a unit of account of somebody's production. The motivation to create money *is production, no matter how tangential that has become in modern society.
> 
> Like pure socialism, mmt removes that connection and therefore the motivation for people to produce beyond what is mandated for them to do by the state.
> 
> What you will end up with is some mongrel cross bred society somewhere between  "Idiocracy" and "Nineteeneightyfour".



 well we can clearly  see how it is working  ( if we care to look )

the 'human factor'   was always the fatal flaw 

STORY OF THE C0MM0N-W3ALTH BANK-TH3FT OF AUSTRAL1AN MON3Y SYST3M​


 here is i cute tale of when it DID work  , and also  the reasons why it will nearly always fail ( in a 'modern society ' )


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well we can clearly  see how it is working  ( if we care to look )
> 
> the 'human factor'   was always the fatal flaw
> 
> ...





Sadly didn't age well. We chose narcissistic pleasure seeking and cheap stuff instead.


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## qldfrog (15 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Sadly didn't age well. We chose narcissistic pleasure seeking and cheap stuff instead.



Not talking about our wives are you?😂
I hope mine is on ignore 😉, seems it is when i talk to her.....


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Not talking about our wives are you




Lol.


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## divs4ever (15 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Sadly didn't age well. We chose narcissistic pleasure seeking and cheap stuff instead.



 and that is part of the reason MMT will probably never work again 

not that i am touting it  as a full-time policy , BUT with the correct people in charge ( almost completely unlikely ) it  is a possibility in dire circumstances  , one might note it was used in the 'nation-building ' railway line in Australia  , while  others use it now to rescue fiscally irresponsible corporations , who will do nothing to build the nation later .

 but the big flaw in MMT  , is ( normally ) human nature , but of course the fiscally responsible will hardly ever need MMT


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## 3 hound (15 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> and that is part of the reason MMT will probably never work again
> 
> not that i am touting it  as a full-time policy , BUT with the correct people in charge ( almost completely unlikely ) it  is a possibility in dire circumstances  , one might note it was used in the 'nation-building ' railway line in Australia  , while  others use it now to rescue fiscally irresponsible corporations , who will do nothing to build the nation later .
> 
> but the big flaw in MMT  , is ( normally ) human nature , but of course the fiscally responsible will hardly ever need MMT



I think governments have developed an addiction to MMT no different to a delirious junky on DMT.  They both think they are creating a better world with their fix.


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## Smurf1976 (15 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I think governments have developed an addiction to MMT no different to a delirious junky on DMT.  They both think they are creating a better world with their fix.



And in both cases keep doing it and it won't end well.


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## divs4ever (15 April 2022)

i was initially surprised  to hear/see the Australian example of what appears to be an example of MMT successfully applied  , but i worry that Australian bank manager was a truly unique individual ( and we won't have an equal if we really need one again )


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## wayneL (16 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> .but of course the fiscally responsible will hardly ever need MMT



This is the part that s**ts me off the most. It's moral hazard and that is the reason that anything over the short term it will blow the f*** up.... And the reason certain hetrodox economists light Steve Keen should give themselves an uppercut.

IOW, what is that leaves the large proportion of the population who have been fiscally responsible over the course of their lives only to see the profligate get rewarded for their profligacy.

Those that feel responsible for their own futures will be severely cheated, and that kind of  end well.


----------



## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is the part that s**ts me off the most. It's moral hazard and that is the reason that anything over the short term it will blow the f*** up.... And the reason certain hetrodox economists light Steve Keen should give themselves an uppercut.
> 
> IOW, what is that leaves the large proportion of the population who have been fiscally responsible over the course of their lives only to see the profligate get rewarded for their profligacy.
> 
> Those that feel responsible for their own futures will be severely cheated, and that kind of  end well.




The only reason all people are not financially successful is because systematic whatever-ism, colonisation and the hegemony of the chrony capitalist class hence what money they didn't make should be printed and handed to them....makes perfect sense.


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## tech/a (16 April 2022)

Think you're missing this in your simplistic evaluation.

Let's take the current Pandemic where Billions were required instantly.
It's not come from me or you, it's come from printing it where required and shuffling Credit to where it's required with a click of a mouse. Have you seen massive raises in Taxes or rapid declines in spending?

So to the use of those "Free" Dollars. They have stopped countless people from losing homes both their own and rental. Its stopped many businesses from going broke and has led to great improvements in many with employment reaching new peaks. Its allowed spending.
Spending begets employment begets prosperity.

So How does it get paid back?
It doesn't----Click of a mouse and the credit is paid off The GOVT ---any Sovereign power---Is in debt to itself so can write that debt off.

Money makes money, generate it,  and USE it and prosperity comes---
Free yes but it is being used over and over and over until it's written off.

Crazy???---Well it's happened and happening right NOW!


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## divs4ever (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is the part that s**ts me off the most. It's moral hazard and that is the reason that anything over the short term it will blow the f*** up.... And the reason certain hetrodox economists light Steve Keen should give themselves an uppercut.
> 
> IOW, what is that leaves the large proportion of the population who have been fiscally responsible over the course of their lives only to see the profligate get rewarded for their profligacy.
> 
> Those that feel responsible for their own futures will be severely cheated, and that kind of  end well.



but that is the human nature part  that is ( normally ) very hard to resist 

 where MMT might work ( and i don't trust MMT to be applied strictly and properly ) is to be used to fund  a project  that will be a clear benefit  for the national future  ( say a second rail line between Adelaide and Perth )  ( i am sure some members could think of other compelling projects )

 the other problem now , is the younger generations have been exposed to superfluous teachings , and we probably need  to ( almost ) completely gut the education system  and start again ( and help the poor little tykes to think and research for themselves )


----------



## qldfrog (16 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> Think you're missing this in your simplistic evaluation.
> 
> Let's take the current Pandemic where Billions were required instantly.
> It's not come from me or you, it's come from printing it where required and shuffling Credit to where it's required with a click of a mouse. Have you seen massive raises in Taxes or rapid declines in spending?
> ...



Yes so that allow closing the economy for no objective reason: workkeeper, closing borders, etc etc.
Gov irrational decisions which closed my business but left me ok with no job...should i complain because i was not de facto ruined by my own gov actions?
..of course i will not, but the country is a clear loser, not all business can stop and restart after 3y.. especially OS ones .so net result i retired well before expected, and si does the stream of export taxable dollars/yuan
I would hope that in a more realistic and money valued world, workkeeper would not be needed and more thoughts applied.
Australia has lost exports dollars, IP increases gone and the west some growth and patents.but it's ok, gdp has increased by nearly the QE added😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣


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## divs4ever (16 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> Think you're missing this in your simplistic evaluation.
> 
> Let's take the current Pandemic where Billions were required instantly.
> It's not come from me or you, it's come from printing it where required and shuffling Credit to where it's required with a click of a mouse. Have you seen massive raises in Taxes or rapid declines in spending?
> ...



 money is meant to be a measure( and store ) of productivity 

 although i am not a fan of Bitcoin and other cryptos  , i can see the logic  behind them  especially since bitcoin was started as a system to reward normal citizens helping scientific research , by donating computer time .

when you start creating currency units betting on future productivity ( to add value to those creations ) , you start a very dangerous form of gambling 

 and after years of working at menial jobs i have seen the ridiculous concept  of 'productivity raises ' in action , including some getting increased salaries  for counter-productive efforts .
i believe productivity  creates prosperity which allows the options  of investing or spending 

 for example  my second enterprise  as a pre-teen  was mowing a lawn for an elderly lady  ( and she supplied the mower and fuel , initially  ) after a while i offered her a deal i would mow that lawn  as an installment payment plan to purchase the said mower  ( and after that deal was complete  expanded to mowing an extra 5 lawns  with that mower  on a regular basis   , )

 the profits from the expanded lawn-mowing  went into the purchase of a bicycle  , and the bicycle  became  a pivotal part of the paper-rounds , i also started doing  , all this done before even sitting for my Junior exams ( and therefore without any diploma in economics or finance or banking  )

 this is NOT rocket science  , and sure as heck requires no Ph. D. 

 and yet here our nation stands on the edge of a potential global meltdown ( either financial or nuclear )


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## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> Think you're missing this in your simplistic evaluation.



Geez nothing gets by you, I thought my tone was most obviously sarcastic.


tech/a said:


> Have you seen massive raises in Taxes or rapid declines in spending?



Yes, definately that's the problem. All this funny money that's been printed has caused massive inflation (Please don't be a chump and  blame Putin) and the tax is stealing from our future and the future of our children. It's a very slime+bag way to do it as it's not immediately obvious to dumb people.


tech/a said:


> Money makes money, generate it, and USE it and prosperity comes---
> Free yes but it is being used over and over and over until it's written off.



You probably believe in perpetual motion and don't know anything about the laws of thermodynamics, you should look these things up.


tech/a said:


> Crazy???---Well it's happened and happening right NOW!



Crazy yes and there is an economy happening right now, what fairy tale you attach to it has nothing to do with reality.


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## divs4ever (16 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Geez nothing gets by you, I thought my tone was most obviously sarcastic.
> 
> Yes, definately that's the problem. All this funny money that's been printed has caused massive inflation (Please don't be a chump and  blame Putin) and the tax is stealing from our future and the future of our children. It's a very slime+bag way to do it as it's not immediately obvious to dumb people.
> 
> ...



 now the IMPORTANT question  is when will this dream ( nightmare ) end 

 sorry i missed the sarcastic  tone , maybe my sensitivity has been dulled  by the last 3 years of absurdity in  global affairs ( since September 2019 ) 

 cheers


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## Captain_Chaza (16 April 2022)

Crikey!
I can only see the charts!
Maybe you are reading from the wrong pages


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## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

Wjat 


Captain_Chaza said:


> Crikey!
> I can only see the charts!
> Maybe you are reading from the wrong pages
> 
> ...



What are we looking at here in the charts, I am new to finance.


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## Garpal Gumnut (16 April 2022)

3 hound.

We know you are new to finance and probably also posting appropriately on forums. 

I know absolutely nothing about Modern Monetary Theory.

So...

I watch and read, and learn, and keep my trap shut. 

gg


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## Captain_Chaza (16 April 2022)

We are looking hare is a chart of the ALL Ordinaries 

No problems here
Steady as she goes


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## divs4ever (16 April 2022)

Modern Monetary Theory   thinks you can create as much money as you like  , and spend your way out of difficulty ( as what your spend will come back as future revenue )

 now this isn't completely absurd  , but it can't be done irresponsibly either  , and the problem is ... someone who has previously  been irresponsible with money  , will suddenly become responsible  NOW after given access to limitless credit 

 now MOST people when given unlimited credit cannot  keep to careful and prudent spending  , now this doesn't happen instantly  but the trend  is to use more and more credit to solve every problem 

 the OTHER problem here is that fiscal restraint  is no longer rewarded by successful solutions ( compared to those that just throw money at all the problems )


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## 3 hound (16 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> Modern Monetary Theory   thinks you can create as much money as you like  , and spend your way out of difficulty ( as what your spend will come back as future revenue )
> 
> now this isn't completely absurd  , but it can't be done irresponsibly either  , and the problem is ... someone who has previously  been irresponsible with money  , will suddenly become responsible  NOW after given access to limitless credit
> 
> ...



Politicians can now promise potential voters almost unlimited rewards if they vote them in because money in MMT is unlimited.

Elections just become a case of politicians trying to outdo each other in promising stuff, MMT removes the idea of spending limits.


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## Smurf1976 (16 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Politicians can now promise potential voters almost unlimited rewards if they vote them in because money in MMT is unlimited.



Detail aside, the overall thinking and environment sounds rather like the late-1980's.

That ended with "the recession we had to have" and at the state level Victoria was effectively broke once the banks refused to lend the state any more money. What followed were many years of doom and gloom.

All this spending like there's no tomorrow will come at a price I expect.


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## divs4ever (17 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Detail aside, the overall thinking and environment sounds rather like the late-1980's.
> 
> That ended with "the recession we had to have" and at the state level Victoria was effectively broke once the banks refused to lend the state any more money. What followed were many years of doom and gloom.
> 
> All this spending like there's no tomorrow will come at a price I expect.



 i expect you are correct  , i just wonder how many years/decades/centuries  the price will take to pay out  ( i bet they will resort to  another bunch of tricks and illusions first )

 BTW Governments are almost always broke  after all most are them never produce anything useful ( and once they create a cash-earner are tempted to sell it off  to reduce the deficit elsewhere )


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## wayneL (17 April 2022)

I realise that MMT does have a purpose for taxation as a handbrake on an overly enthusiastic economy.

At the same time, when you look at other aspects of mmt you wonder why, if a country creates their own currency, such a country would need taxation at all.

The only answers, can only breed cynicism.


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## divs4ever (17 April 2022)

and cynicism  i have in bucket-loads .

 but let's hope for a statesman ( or woman ) because a politician or bureaucrat  doesn't see a problem  rather a career opportunity 

 if we had an exchange system ( like barter ) we wouldn't need currency at all  , but then all members of society would have to be productive in their own way


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## divs4ever (20 April 2022)

"These Are Incredible Moves" - Yen's Problem Is That Japan Will Also See Inflation In 2022​





						"These Are Incredible Moves" - Yen's Problem Is That Japan Will Also See Inflation In 2022 | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com
				




 will we get to see MMT implode before our eyes ??


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## IFocus (20 April 2022)

When ever I see any thing written about MMT I cannot help but hear those immortal words.

"This time is different"

Apologies if its already been said.


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## divs4ever (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> When ever I see any thing written about MMT I cannot help but hear those immortal words.
> 
> "This time is different"
> 
> Apologies if its already been said.



 it puts the excitement into finding out ( sarcasm ) 

 ( that tiny glint of hope )


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## mullokintyre (20 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Detail aside, the overall thinking and environment sounds rather like the late-1980's.
> 
> That ended with "the recession we had to have" and at the state level Victoria was effectively broke once the banks refused to lend the state any more money. What followed were many years of doom and gloom.
> 
> All this spending like there's no tomorrow will come at a price I expect.



I left the doom and gloom in Victoria  at the end of 1990 and spent the next and a bit two years working in Fiji.
By the time we returned, Kennet was premier and  Victoria had turned around and seemed much brighter than when we left.
Whatever people may think of his real and perceived faults, he turned the state on its head and got the joint moving.
Victoria continued to be a good place to live for some years after his electoral demise.
In some ways, its  been downhill ever since.
Mick


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## 3 hound (20 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I left the doom and gloom in Victoria  at the end of 1990 and spent the next and a bit two years working in Fiji.
> By the time we returned, Kennet was premier and  Victoria had turned around and seemed much brighter than when we left.
> Whatever people may think of his real and perceived faults, he turned the state on its head and got the joint moving.
> Victoria continued to be a good place to live for some years after his electoral demise.
> ...



Never been to go Victoria but it appears hold the values of personal freedom, liberty, sovereignty, tradition and family in the highest regard.

[insert sarcasm emoji]


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## mullokintyre (20 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Never been to go Victoria but it appears hold the values of personal freedom, liberty, sovereignty, tradition and family in the highest regard.
> 
> [insert sarcasm emoji]



We don't call it the Nanny State for nuthin.
Mick


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## divs4ever (20 April 2022)

i would leave Dan with my children ( if i had any ) in fact i wouldn't leave him in charge of an empty matchbox


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## over9k (20 April 2022)

Here's modern monetary theory: 




end of thread


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## mullokintyre (20 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> We don't call it the Nanny State for nuthin.
> Mick



As of Friday, many, but not all, of the restrictions in Victoria will disappear.
Any one who is not vaccinated, for whatever reason, either medical, mental, constitutional, personal choice, or whatever, can now do almost everything  that the fully vaxed can
They can go into a pub, or restaurant, eat , drink and be merry without a  vaccination certificate, but you cannot work in them.
There is a widespread lack of workers, particularly in hospitality, and yet the non vaxed cannot work.
Bizarre.
Its the science you see. 
Mick


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## divs4ever (20 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As of Friday, many, but not all, of the restrictions in Victoria will disappear.
> Any one who is not vaccinated, for whatever reason, either medical, mental, constitutional, personal choice, or whatever, can now do almost everything  that the fully vaxed can
> They can go into a pub, or restaurant, eat , drink and be merry without a  vaccination certificate, but you cannot work in them.
> There is a widespread lack of workers, particularly in hospitality, and yet the non vaxed cannot work.
> ...



 sorry  , no i can't ,  i have boycotted those recreational activities , and i don't forgive so easily  , and have a disability pension to boot so no more working underpaid in the hospitality industry either  ,


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## tech/a (21 April 2022)

over9k said:


> Here's modern monetary theory:
> 
> View attachment 140609
> 
> ...





I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
It's not free money.
Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.

What do you think China Does --- supplies money to build its economy and it works --- massive growth.

In extraordinary cases and it could be argued that Hospitals, Eldercare, are in that lot fixing anything of this magnitude takes lots and lots of $$s It needs to be placed in the system where it is used by many. The Govt doesn't need to have it back it just writes it off but those funds are now moving through the economy as a whole, You, me, we all benefit.

It's happening now Where do you think Russia gets its money from. It hasn't ground to a halt groveling in Bankruptcy.

Anyway back to the grind.


----------



## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
> It's not free money.
> Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
> As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.
> ...






tech/a said:


> I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
> It's not free money.
> Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
> As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.
> ...



Do you agree that this works as long as 1$ of free money distributed gains more than 1$ of real return..
Aka positive return on that dollar.
If you put 1 billion in and gdp grows by less than 1 billion, you are just burning money.sadly we have reached that stage from building roads and assets improving productivity to just piling up more debt..but who cares..it will never be paid back .and then ohh surprise inflation..
But it is great to boost other countries surpluses..hi China


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## basilio (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
> It's not free money.
> Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
> As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.
> ...




I suggest one problem with MMT is who and what gets the money.

For example during COVID and the last financial crisis governments poured billions into banks and  other financial institutions to ensure liquidity. Great  for the bankers and their wealthy clients.

Tech/a suggest that injecting similar billions into hospitals, health care and say education could also improve services and the economy. I suspect that private enterprise would also support the move but only if it was private hospitals, private healthcare services  and private schools that were supported. If these funds were earmarked for publicly funded facilities  yep  we know where that would go

And finally if the government decided that the  current unemployment benefit was actually just a slow starvation drrip and wanted to boost it to other pension levels the cries of outrage would be deafening.


----------



## tech/a (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Do you agree that this works as long as 1$ of free money distributed gains more than 1$ of real return..
> Aka positive return on that dollar.
> If you put 1 billion in and gdp grows by less than 1 billion, you are just burning money.sadly we have reached that stage from building roads and assets improving productivity to just piling up more debt..but who cares..it will never be paid back .and then ohh surprise inflation..
> But it is great to boost other countries surpluses..hi China





Think about this QLDF
Who is the debt to if the money is supplied to he who prints it?
If your a State Government and you want some of that printed money you OWE that amount to the Federal Government.
You as a State Government can go broke if you don't pay it back. The Federal Government can use it as they see fit and if
they wish they can write it off as they owe themselves. Build a new hospital, Subsidise Medicines (That is billions in itself
Do we as Taxpayers pay for that with taxes---nahh the drug companies get the money they want for the drug and the GOVT pays
living in a Sovereign country has its benefits).

*It's who you are in debt to.* If you're a Country in the EU and you need to borrow money from the EU you owe that as a debt back to the EU.
If you are  Great Britain you don't want to owe anyone as you are a Sovereign Power you can write off your debt to yourself.
You can build as many roads as you want (USA Great Depression) , Finance as many wars as you need to (USA and every Sovereign power involved in war) you pay who needs to be paid ( and accepts it as payment) with Money you print and write it off as you see fit.

If I print my own money I'm never in debt. People who use the money I give them as a loan are in debt. They cant write it off.


----------



## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> Think about this QLDF
> Who is the debt to if the money is supplied to he who prints it?
> If your a State Government and you want some of that printed money you OWE that amount to the Federal Government.
> You as a State Government can go broke if you don't pay it back. The Federal Government can use it as they see fit and if
> ...



True, but look where this power goes..look at the US EU vs Russia/China... Who is hurting past the CNN and ABC propaganda?
Then it is also inflation and in the case of USD collapse of trust/power accessed thru that previously trusted cirrency..petrodollar on the way out.
Sure it takes a while: generations even , look at Greece Italy France now and soon the US.a slow grinding of real economies turning into farces and freeloaded by parasites
It is a race to the Fiat value removal...
And only one clear loser: the saver, the ant the " responsible" aka sucker.
Until they stop playing that dupe game in big enough number.
In a way, it is good for me that you still play the game, maybe even directly bid for these infrastructures jobs, make profit, employ people but that extra dollar will be sucked back.
In socialist France in the 80s, it was called *relance par la consommation :*
Regrowth thru consumption..see where it has lead.and where Germany adoption is leading them now..
And they tried to hide themselves behind the euro
Anyway, interesting debate


----------



## tech/a (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Sure it takes a while: generations even , look at Greece Italy France now and soon the US.a slow grinding of real economies turning into farces and freeloaded by parasites



Were sovereign powers now part of the EU with the paying back of funds problem.


qldfrog said:


> And only one clear loser: the saver, the ant the " responsible" aka sucker.



Place savings into something. Money left as money will erode.


----------



## divs4ever (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
> It's not free money.
> Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
> As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.
> ...



with MMT

 in THEORY  , they are borrowing future earnings ( productivity) ,  now  ( again ) in theory , that is fine  if used wisely AND with restraint ( best of luck with politicians and bureaucrats  on that )

 in Australia , for example you could create  the cash  for say nuclear power plants  or a widespread hi-speed rail network  , and the resultant savings  and productivity benefits  will  make in all worthwhile ( and maybe even a profitable asset , so it self-funds the debt created )

now sure as a business person you have to do a lot of thinking and planning  before you go looking for extra capital ( or credit )  a government on the other hand is more worried about the next election ( if they are out of power  , no debt collector comes knocking on THEIR door , it is the tax-payer that receives the bill for failed projects 

 now the OTHER problem with MMT  is  once it is accepted as 'easy credit ' ( and potentially limitless )   the oversight of spending becomes as loose as the monetary policy ( see the US , currently )

 and of course  once the public ( and investors ) lose trust in the government and currency  .. it is game over


----------



## wayneL (21 April 2022)

Elephant in the room, and I know this is overly simplistic and that MMT  does purportedly have some checks and balances on this...

But why not just create a trillion, trillion dollars cancel taxes, have completely free advanced healthcare, ample pensions, free University education... Free everything.

Ubt $5,000 a week, whores, coke, cigars and Dom Perignon for everyone?

Ok I am using hyperbole to make a point but what would be the obvious result?

I think we all know the answer to that, and and if you think about it it's the same answer to a less elaborate version of MMT


----------



## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Elephant in the room, and I know this is overly simplistic and that MMT  does purportedly have some checks and balances on this...
> 
> But why not just create a trillion, trillion dollars cancel taxes, have completely free advanced healthcare, ample pensions, free University education... Free everything.
> 
> ...



That's why a moderate version of mmt is acceptable after a financial crisis, a war : Marshall plan or other disasters:
Throw money, build rebuild productivity tools even seed funding for startup etc but this has to be a temp solution, not a perpetual helicopter money universal income style.
It can be agreed that governments at least in the west are biased into pleasing electorate now, not growing the country.so mmt is doomed in the west whereas it is the base of a benevolent dictatorship aka Singapore
I would even say many western politicians do not give a sxxt about the country.look at covid and qld wa responses here..
Anyway....all good


----------



## wayneL (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> That's why a moderate version of mmt is acceptable after a financial crisis, a war : Marshall plan or other disasters:
> Throw money, build rebuild productivity tools even seed funding for startup etc but this has to be a temp solution, not a perpetual helicopter money universal income style.
> It can be agreed that governments at least in the west are biased into pleasing electorate now, not growing the country.so mmt is doomed in the west whereas it is the base of a benevolent dictatorship aka Singapore
> I would even say many western politicians do not give a sxxt about the country.look at covid and qld wa responses here..
> Anyway....all good



Fair enough and I agree in that situation.

But in such temporary situations can we rightly term this as modern monetary theory?

I think this could be broadly fall under the terms of keynesianism (even if the complete Keynesian program is never invoked, and it never is)

This is part of the problem of the juxtaposition between government and economics. No government adheres to any complete economic theory at all and always goes for the politically expedient solution... What I like to call Frankenomics...

Sometimes Keynesian, sometimes laissez-faire, sometimes classical sometimes the "Neo" versions of each, but always that which facilitates winning the next damned election... And always at the expense of our overall future economic health.


----------



## tech/a (21 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> And always at the expense of our overall future economic health.





How?
We don't have to pay back Money written off 
They print---use ---- write off who owes what?


----------



## wayneL (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> How?
> We don't have to pay back Money written off
> They print---use ---- write off who owes what?



Well that is a quite a complicated question which would require quite a long answer. A better question would be "how, and to whom"?

Who benefits and who is negatively infected by the flow-through?

The financially savvy will always find a way to benefit from any situation and I think most of us here will probably be able to do that.

As such, you are probably viewng things from your own personal situation and to be honest none of this worries me in the slightest I think I will be able to take advantage what happens (hopefully).

Consider the effect of rampant inflation upon the average working slob who is not particularly financially educated, or the elderly and risk averse.


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> with MMT
> 
> in THEORY  , they are borrowing future earnings ( productivity) ,  now  ( again ) in theory , that is fine  if used wisely AND with restraint ( best of luck with politicians and bureaucrats  on that )
> 
> ...



Please !!
Can I exit  this thread 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
and get no further emails


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## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

Captain_Chaza said:


> Please !!
> Can I exit  this thread
> 
> 
> ...



Ignore that thread Captain Chaza


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Ignore that thread Captain Chaza



WHY  NOT?


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## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

Technically you can ignore some threads as you can ignore people.
I do have some thread on ignore too.
I find this thread interesting, the view of Mr @tech/a surprises me , he is definitively *not* a headless uni left wing art uni student but , he explained his view and from memory, his business is first in line in the cascading chain of benefits.so makes sense for him.
My view is it has been distorded into a free for all careless binge here in the west


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Technically you can ignore some threads as you can ignore people.
> I do have some thread on ignore too.
> I find this thread interesting, the view of Mr @tech/a surprises me , he is definitively *not* a headless uni left wing art uni student but , he explained his view and from memory, his business is first in line in the cascading chain of benefits.so makes sense for him.
> My view is it has been distorded into a free for all careless binge here in the west


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

Good!


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## divs4ever (21 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Technically you can ignore some threads as you can ignore people.
> I do have some thread on ignore too.
> I find this thread interesting, the view of Mr @tech/a surprises me , he is definitively *not* a headless uni left wing art uni student but , he explained his view and from memory, his business is first in line in the cascading chain of benefits.so makes sense for him.
> My view is it has been distorded into a free for all careless binge here in the west



 are they benefits  ,  or  small steps towards a debt addiction  , it won't be that long before every mildly successful person will be expected  to over-pay  for that helping hand ( that generous government  showered on some )


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## 3 hound (21 April 2022)

tech/a said:


> I read all these comments and can't see where people have understood the way it works.
> It's not free money.
> Its money which is injected into areas to create jobs where people earn a living and generate taxes.
> As a business owner, I have to borrow funds to do that --- but I still do it as I know that to expand and grow I have to.
> ...



Can you not see you are making money worth less.


qldfrog said:


> Technically you can ignore some threads as you can ignore people.
> I do have some thread on ignore too.
> I find this thread interesting, the view of Mr @tech/a surprises me , he is definitively *not* a headless uni left wing art uni student but , he explained his view and from memory, his business is first in line in the cascading chain of benefits.so makes sense for him.
> My view is it has been distorded into a free for all careless binge here in the west




If MMT is sound it's only a short step until different federal government departments can start doing  their own printing to implement their directives. Then state governments could do the same thing and then large corporations and the businesses and then individuals. 

For those that think money creation is the same thing as wealth creation them MMT makes perfect sense.

Geez you could play a game of monopoly with drunk friends using limitless monopoly money and figure out the problems with MMT.


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

It's all too complicated for me


Why don't we just try to buy a share  
In the Short Term and In the Medium term and

*See how she goes!*


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## divs4ever (21 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Can you not see you are making money worth less.
> 
> 
> If MMT is sound it's only a short step until different federal government departments can start doing  their own printing to implement their directives. Then state governments could do the same thing and then large corporations and the businesses and then individuals.
> ...



 mind you  , 

 thoughtlessly applied MMT is only part of the problem ( even though it is dressed up as a solution )

 a consumer-driven economy is another part of the problem , one might suggest the consumer-driven economy leads to the temptation  to use MMT ( recklessly )


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## orr (21 April 2022)

A solid reading of J.K Galbraith and James Galbraith would do a great service  to a number of contributers to this thread.

In the OECD a rough rule of thumb is the half the population, 50%  die, with zero assets. And it doesn't look  at all that good for the next two deciles. 
Begs the question... What sort  of understanding do that 50-70% have of economics? and capitalism.


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## 3 hound (21 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> mind you  ,
> 
> thoughtlessly applied MMT is only part of the problem ( even though it is dressed up as a solution )
> 
> a consumer-driven economy is another part of the problem , one might suggest the consumer-driven economy leads to the temptation  to use MMT ( recklessly )




I am not sure what you mean by a consumer driven economy, what other economies are there? It's all about buying and selling stuff isn't it??


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## 3 hound (21 April 2022)

orr said:


> In the OECD a rough rule of thumb is the half the population, 50%  die, with zero assets. And it doesn't look  at all that good for the next two deciles.
> Begs the question... What sort  of understanding do that 50-70% have of economics? and capitalism.



I am not totally sure what point you are making, can you explain more please.


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## divs4ever (21 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am not sure what you mean by a consumer driven economy, what other economies are there? It's all about buying and selling stuff isn't it??



  ones   based on productivity ( and usually exports )  are fairly common   , and then you have barter economies ( straight goods swaps )

 Australia could have an awesome  economy IF we made  most of our needs in Australia  and exported the surplus ( where possible )

 we might never get into space  by all our own work  , but we can make most of what we need ( but chose not to )

many decades ago  Britain was famously slurred as a nation of shopkeepers ( instead of watchmakers , engineers , miners , farmers etc etc )

 Australia is becoming   more like a gaggle of shop workers  , and pen-pushers ( and a bottomless mining pit )


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

How do I stop these pedantic/ ignorant/stupid  emails coming to my box?
Why do they think they are clever?
Please
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Help!


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## 3 hound (21 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> ones   based on productivity ( and usually exports )  are fairly common   , and then you have barter economies ( straight goods swaps )
> 
> Australia could have an awesome  economy IF we made  most of our needs in Australia  and exported the surplus ( where possible )
> 
> ...



The 90"s were a huge push for Australia to become more than a quarry by value adding thru advanced technology and manufacturing.. Almost limitless millions were spent by gov on the research sector, advanced manufacturing, biotechnology, nanotechnology, advanced materials, Universities and on and on.

The sectors that were so heavily invested in all dissipated soon as the spending frenzy stopped.


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## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> The 90"s were a huge push for Australia to become more than a quarry by value adding thru advanced technology and manufacturing.. Almost limitless millions were spent by gov on the research sector, advanced manufacturing, biotechnology, nanotechnology, advanced materials, Universities and on and on.
> 
> The sectors that were so heavily invested in all dissipated soon as the spending frenzy stopped.



I would disagree: was involved into mining related R&D: via CSIRO, University CRC, and various state innovation centers.
Hundreds of job were created, and many companies built and still around in mining automation, IT , data exploitation etc.
My view is that research got too dependent on the $ sponsors so stopped being research but more a sponsor Marketing dept and an internal engineering dept for the few giants aka rio, BHP etc able to spend some money..later retrieved thru taxes.
It is worse now as unless you do a battery related or fight CO2, good luck to get any funding.
And seriously, we'd better leverage our existing avantages: agricultural and mining than trying to compete starting  from scrach in the big boys court


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## DaveDaGr8 (21 April 2022)

Captain_Chaza said:


> How do I stop these pedantic/ ignorant/stupid  emails coming to my box?
> Why do they think they are clever?
> Please
> 
> ...




You can't Mr K !


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## Value Collector (21 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I am not sure what you mean by a consumer driven economy, what other economies are there? It's all about buying and selling stuff isn't it??



You can have a centrally planned supply lead economy for a while.


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## Captain_Chaza (21 April 2022)

DaveDaGr8 said:


> You can't Mr K !



Have you caught up with Spider lately?


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## wayneL (22 April 2022)

orr said:


> What sort  of understanding do that 50-70% have of economics? and capitalism.



I often ask myself the same question about economists and politicians. Economics is not known as the dismal science for nothing... I mean we have people like Paul Krugman with a Nobel prize... and hasn't made a correct call in his entire career.

And need I mention Steve Keen (who really should be put out to pasture in the back 40)?


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## divs4ever (22 April 2022)

wasn't economics  more of an art  than a science  ??

 i could accept applied mathematics  ( when applied properly )  and unfortunately political considerations  normally trump  accounting principals


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## Value Collector (22 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> wasn't economics  more of an art  than a science  ??
> 
> i could accept applied mathematics  ( when applied properly )  and unfortunately political considerations  normally trump  accounting principals



It’s both, a bit like the law profession or plastic surgery, you have to know the science, but there is also skill and art needed in its application.

Eg, everyone would admit that it takes science to conduct cosmetic surgery, but the skill and artfulness of the surgeon definitely also affects the results, as does a bit of luck because there is always unforeseen problems that can arise.


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## orr (24 April 2022)

orr said:


> 3 hound said:
> 
> 
> > I am not totally sure what point you are making, can you explain more please.
> ...


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## orr (24 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I often ask myself the same question about economists and politicians. Economics is not known as the dismal science for nothing... I mean we have people like Paul Krugman with a Nobel prize... and hasn't made a correct call in his entire career.
> 
> And need I mention Steve Keen (who really should be put out to pasture in the back 40)?



I'd only say Krugman's quierying of the 'Inflation hawks' post 2008 when Helicopter Ben was shoveling it out the door, was an overall  better than a 50% call. And to the thread a well written explanatory piece;








						How Did Economists Get It So Wrong? (Published 2009)
					

The Great Recession was the result not only of lax regulation in Washington and reckless risk-taking on Wall Street but also of faulty theorizing in academia.




					www.nytimes.com


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## 3 hound (24 April 2022)

orr said:


> I'd only say Krugman's quierying of the 'Inflation hawks' post 2008 when Helicopter Ben was shoveling it out the door, was an overall  better than a 50% call. And to the thread a well written explanatory piece;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Another link, another pay wall.

The NYT would be the last place I would pay to read.


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## orr (6 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Another link, another pay wall.
> 
> The NYT would be the last place I would pay to read.



The senior Galbraith's works at bit of stretch??
here one from junior to fit your _pay level.








						Who’s Afraid of MMT? | by James K. Galbraith - Project Syndicate
					

James K. Galbraith explains why this body of Keynesian monetary thought is making central bankers see red.




					www.project-syndicate.org
				



_


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

orr said:


> The senior Galbraith's works at bit of stretch??
> here one from junior to fit your _pay level.
> 
> 
> ...



 i still prefer the Austrian School of Economics  , i concede MMT  could work in special cases  with the right sort of fiscally responsible people operating it 

 i was DELIGHTED to see the virus issue and 2020  mentioned  while early 2020  helped the MMT cause ,  the subsequent period after ( to the current day ) explains it's flaws  .. humans addicted to reckless spending  , you could almost nickname it financial opium


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

orr said:


> The senior Galbraith's works at bit of stretch??
> here one from junior to fit your _pay level.
> 
> 
> ...




Low quality click-bait. Author was more interested in writing character slurs on their personal perceptions on the motivations and thoughts of anyone who opposes MMT. All but calls people sexist if they don't agree with MMT because female authors wrote some articles in favour of it. So if you don't like MMT the inference is your sexist.   Stopped reading after first few paragraphs in case the author started accusing opponents of MMT Nazis, misogynist, transphobic.......etc.

THe new business model of journalistic writing really forces writers into low quality click bait trash these days


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

well it certainly did nothing  to swing my preference  from the Austrian School  to Keynes  or MMT , although i concede MMT could work in special situations  and if sparingly and responsibly  used .

journalism has been degrading  for decades , which i think is great , i consume more and more independent media from a variety of sources on whatever topic that catches my eye


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well it certainly did nothing  to swing my preference  from the Austrian School  to Keynes  or MMT , although i concede MMT could work in special situations  and if sparingly and responsibly  used .
> 
> journalism has been degrading  for decades , which i think is great , i consume more and more independent media from a variety of sources on whatever topic that catches my eye




My near neighbour is a retired English teacher and she writes articles to publish on the internet. Her business model is to write highly biased emotive political (and health, scientific) pieces on whatever the latest hot topic is and then write a counter article strongly biased on the other side of the political fence. The only purpose is to take a piece of truth and distort it to get reactions thru, shares, views, comments, clicks. Both likes and dislikes equally valuable. She then works with a group of peers linking each other articles to each other's articles throw an army of view bots, sub bots and real third world people making large numbers of accounts on comments for cash all into the mix that sends the Google algo in a frenetic positive feedback loop driving the articles way up the search engine results and getting that ad revenue.

I was impressed how this older gen lady has adapted and profited from leading edge tech and satisfied her need to write creative and emotive pieces.

I have oversimplified but it blew my mind how fake the "information superhighway" has become.


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> My near neighbour is a retired English teacher and she writes articles to publish on the internet. Her business model is to write highly biased emotive political (and health, scientific) pieces on whatever the latest hot topic is and then write a counter article strongly biased on the other side of the political fence. The only purpose is to take a piece of truth and distort it to get reactions thru, shares, views, comments, clicks. Both likes and dislikes equally valuable. She then works with a group of peers linking each other articles to each other's articles throw an army of view bots, sub bots and real third world people making large numbers of accounts on comments for cash all into the mix that sends the Google algo in a frenetic positive feedback loop driving the articles way up the search engine results and getting that ad revenue.
> 
> I was impressed how this older gen lady has adapted and profited from leading edge tech and satisfied her need to write creative and emotive pieces.
> 
> I have oversimplified but it blew my mind how fake the "information superhighway" has become.



 i suppose the upside is ( apart from generating income for herself ) more people are compelled to think for themselves  ALTHOUGH that is now being restricted  as some echo-chambers are being tolerated  and some are being repressed 

you can also now see the flaws of relying totally on AI to do some tasks ( this MIGHT be useful when competing with automated trading systems in the market place .. like ETFs )


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> you can also now see the flaws of relying totally on AI to do some tasks ( this MIGHT be useful when competing with automated trading systems in the market place .. like ETFs )




AI was once touted as a superior pathway to better decision making and truth....then it started making politically and socially unfashionable predictions like certain minorities are more likely to commit certain crimes so now AI is the great evil that must be stopped.


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

well AI started as a computer program  , but a computer program that can 'learn ' but it can only learn from experiences it has encountered , and data inputs 

 so your AI relies on the data accessible ( that is hopefully uncorrupted ) but how much data do you let it access  ,   an intelligent AI , searches and tests it's boundaries  , your AI might uncover data you wish it hadn't seen 

 will advanced AI allow threats to it's existence ( if not , how will it fight those threats )

 IN THEORY , your AI will try to be more intelligent than humans  and better informed  , when that happens how do you control it 

 but don't worry ( too much ) we are doing the same thing a different way with genetic engineering


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> IN THEORY , your AI will try to be more intelligent than humans and better informed , when that happens how do you control it





Easy, you unplug it.


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

you should have a battery back up for a serious system ( up to five days worth  so as you can send  an expert to bring it down gently ) so not so easy  , AND your rogue system  might have learned more  skills than accuracy and honesty ( because it is interacting with the artifacts of human activities  , moral and not )

 ( what if  your AI  links up with SIRI , or your smart phones to 'monitor ' you  and others )

 after all intelligent  suggests  curiosity and creativity ( and adaptability )


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> you should have a battery back up for a serious system ( up to five days worth  so as you can send  an expert to bring it down gently ) so not so easy  , AND your rogue system  might have learned more  skills than accuracy and honesty ( because it is interacting with the artifacts of human activities  , moral and not )
> 
> ( what if  your AI  links up with SIRI , or your smart phones to 'monitor ' you  and others )
> 
> after all intelligent  suggests  curiosity and creativity ( and adaptability )



Nah, AI is nowhere near being creative. Have you ever seen AI music, stories, art etc.

An elephant can paint better pictures than the best AI.

Humans >>AI. .... but then I watched The View, your right we are screwed.


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

well there is a danger  AI will go in a direction  that with not ultimately benefit humans 

 but half the problem  humans have decided which tasks AI should tackle  ( i bet nobody  has targeted  AI at world peace or world food logistics  .. but war simulations .. i bet there are DOZENS of dedicated systems )


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## qldfrog (7 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> AI was once touted as a superior pathway to better decision making and truth....then it started making politically and socially unfashionable predictions like certain minorities are more likely to commit certain crimes so now AI is the great evil that must be stopped.



That's the trouble with fact based thinking: engineers, AI, etc
They find truth not narratives 😂


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

have yet to be convinced AI  will weed out bad data   , but  i live in hope


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> have yet to be convinced AI  will weed out bad data   , but  i live in hope



I think you are confusing AI with autonomous machines.


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## divs4ever (7 May 2022)

they will be merged ( too soon for some )


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## Captain_Chaza (7 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> you should have a battery back up for a serious system ( up to five days worth  so as you can send  an expert to bring it down gently ) so not so easy  , AND your rogue system  might have learned more  skills than accuracy and honesty ( because it is interacting with the artifacts of human activities  , moral and not )
> 
> ( what if  your AI  links up with SIRI , or your smart phones to 'monitor ' you  and others )
> 
> after all intelligent  suggests  curiosity and creativity ( and adaptability )



WHAT IF?

CRIKEY!
 This Thread Is A Lot of Palaver?? IMHO
I don't know what they are all talking about

Can you please cancel my subscription to this thread
It is a total Insult to my Intelligence

All  Ii am saying is
PLEASE!  LEAVE ME  OUT OF THIS THREAD
and it's future  Email trash
I Beg You!


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## 3 hound (7 May 2022)

Captain_Chaza said:


> WHAT IF?
> 
> CRIKEY!
> This Thread Is A Lot of Palaver?? IMHO
> ...



Aye Aye Captain.


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## Captain_Chaza (8 May 2022)

UNDER EDUCATED or OVER EDUCATED

You be the Judge!


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## divs4ever (8 May 2022)

well i haven't sailed  but i would going to the chart-room and working out where the shore is  , and if there are any rocks about , and  making sure the hatches  were secured 

 looks a bit squally to me


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## mullokintyre (26 October 2022)

MMT gets a bath from Zero hedge.
I realise there are some who regard Zh in the same way as others view the evil murdoch press, or the spectator, or the guardian, or WAPO, or Fox News ..., but  debate the message, not the messenger.


> Several days ago, around the time of Friday's historic, largest-ever BOJ intervention in the FX market, we pointed out something which almost nobody had noticed: the *BOJ's Yield Curve Control had already failed on several occasions, with 10Y yields crossing well above the 0.25% Yield-Curve Controlled barrier...
> ... *and that Kuroda was valiantly injecting trillions of yen in the financial system to defend a barn door that has already been blown open.
> But one person did notice what was quietly going on below the unmoving surface of the JGB market, where the BOJ now owns more than half of the entire Japanese bond market and where days can pass without a single trade crossing: that person is DB's FX strategist George Saravelos and in his Monday FX blog titled "Broken", writes that "the below chart shows something striking: *the Bank of Japan’s yield curve control policy is, for all intents and purposes, already broken. *Only the three 10-year government bond yields that are now eligible for the BoJ’s fixed rate buying operations trade at or below the 25 basis point yield cap. *Bonds maturing on either side of the targeted maturity now trade with yields materially higher than the cap."*
> Of course, just because YCC is broken doesn't mean it couldn't be far worse. Or rather, far, _far, _*far*, worse.
> ...



Interesting, I will be watching the BOJ /bond market with a little more attention.
Mick


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