# Attaining Wealth



## MrBurns (2 October 2013)

Been thinking about this lately, after reading Killing Fairfax and seeing the Clive Palmer story on ABC
I combine that with what I saw as an agent and looking at Palmer, James Packer and Laughlin Murdoch I can see it requires a degree of abandonment of all fear.

The developers I worked with as an agent just jumped in on the basis that those who dare win, and a lot of the time they did and when they didn't they'd pick themselves up and do it again, where they ultimately end up I'm not sure but get a few wins in a row under your belt and you start to become bullet proof.

Palmer developed real estate, then at the age of 27 and with about $40m to play with he didn't sit back and retire he put the lot on mining in WA, went to China to see if they would buy the stuff and did a deal that saw him get $500m a year for the next 30 years.

So when you're sitting down sweating over the mortgage payments give some thought to how these guys think BIG and don't give a stuff about anything else.

I don't think I could be one of them but I can see, in part at least, how they do it...............a complete lack of fear.


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## tech/a (2 October 2013)

Far from lack of fear.

More recognition of opportunity
Knowing what to do to take advantage of that opportunity
then DOING IT!

The road is littered with Clive Palmer tragic's
1000s of Small businesses file for Bankruptcy each year.
You wont here a Clive Palmer story that often in a year.


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## MrBurns (2 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> Far from lack of fear.
> 
> More recognition of opportunity
> Knowing what to do to take advantage of that opportunity
> ...




Ha very true, the other side of the coin.


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## burglar (2 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Ha very true, the other side of the coin.




Money makes money, ...

Hoping to squeeze myself into the cycle.


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## galumay (2 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> Far from lack of fear.
> 
> More recognition of opportunity
> Knowing what to do to take advantage of that opportunity
> ...




Agreed, the ledger is firmly weighted the other way, most never make it.

Luck also plays a massive part, you only have to meet with a Clive Palmer or similar to realise they are often not at all smart.

I worked in WA skippering boats for multi millionaires many years ago, I reckon only one of them struck me as being a really smart guy, the rest of them were frankly, embarrassingly stupid. I still dine out on stories of their behaviour. The successful ones were very lucky though.

Also history is littered with those who flew to the top - and then crashed to nothing. Bond, Skase, Tinkler.... no fear, no perspective either.


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## tech/a (2 October 2013)

Getting there
Staying there.


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## pixel (2 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> Getting there
> Staying there.




Lucky you


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## Julia (2 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Been thinking about this lately, after reading Killing Fairfax and seeing the Clive Palmer story on ABC
> I combine that with what I saw as an agent and looking at Palmer, James Packer and Laughlin Murdoch I can see it requires a degree of abandonment of all fear.



Or the ability to accept the fear and still proceed.



tech/a said:


> Far from lack of fear.
> 
> More recognition of opportunity
> Knowing what to do to take advantage of that opportunity
> then DOING IT!




I think before either of these traits comes a fundamental drive to want to make money.
Not just at a level which provides security and a good lifestyle, but more an obsession with wealth itself.
Clive Palmer, for example, doesn't need to go on making money.  His bragging about having far more than he needs is pretty obscene imo.

But we see it everywhere.  Perhaps it confers a sense of power or assuages personal emotional insecurity or something.  I don't know.  At least people like Bill Gates have the generosity of spirit to share their wealth with others.


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## tech/a (2 October 2013)

pixel said:


> Lucky you




Not me necessarily --anyone.


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## doctorj (2 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> More recognition of opportunity
> Knowing what to do to take advantage of that opportunity
> then DOING IT!




This is great advice.  Success has more to do with great execution than having a great idea.  There are so many examples of entrepreneurs that have been wildly successful without creating anything new at all.  Just doing it better.  I’m reading a book at the moment called ‘Worthless, Impossible and Stupid’ and a lot of it is about this very simple idea.  There’s a great example in there of a company called Clutch Group that was started by a penniless door-to-door bible seller in the mid-west US that simply outsources legal services to India.  It started with a very simple idea that US-based lawyers hated doing more menial tasks, only slightly more than they hated paying the exorbitant rates changed by other lawyers to outsource the work.  He just did it better.



tech/a said:


> The road is littered with Clive Palmer tragic's
> 1000s of Small businesses file for Bankruptcy each year.
> You wont here a Clive Palmer story that often in a year.



Personally, I don’t think becoming extraordinarily rich necessarily means risking poverty or doubling down on every bet either.  This is the internet age; you can have access to 2.4bn internet users for less than $100 to set up a website.  AND the market is growing at 17% EVERY YEAR.  What other market looks like that?

This is the modern day gold rush.  And you can get involved for much less than the cost of a pick axe and a bus ride to Kalgoorlie!  Craigslist, which disrupted the US newspaper classifieds was built largely without any investment and is now worth something like $5 billion!


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## galumay (2 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> ....
> Personally, I don’t think becoming extraordinarily rich necessarily means risking poverty or doubling down on every bet either.  This is the internet age; you can have access to 2.4bn internet users for less than $100 to set up a website.  AND the market is growing at 17% EVERY YEAR.  What other market looks like that?
> 
> This is the modern day gold rush.  And you can get involved for much less than the cost of a pick axe and a bus ride to Kalgoorlie!  Craigslist, which disrupted the US newspaper classifieds was built largely without any investment and is now worth something like $5 billion!




The problem with online selling is that its almost impossible to build and maintain any sort of competitive advantage if you are not first to the market.


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## doctorj (2 October 2013)

galumay said:


> The problem with online selling is that its almost impossible to build and maintain any sort of competitive advantage if you are not first to the market.




It can be much broader than just selling.  Think services, creating market places, providing data or information or even improving people’s lives.  And there’s absolutely no need to be first.  Facebook wasn’t the first social network.  Remember MySpace, Orkut or Friendster?  Facebook wasn’t even the last successful social network.  LinkedIn has a market cap of $28.4 billion.  Twitter is likely to IPO shortly at a valuation of $10-15 billion.  Both came after facebook.

What about this website?  I don't think Joe was the first to come up with the idea of a forum.  He definitely wasn't even the first to develop an investment forum.  And he wasn't even the first to do it in Australia.

There's no need to be first, just better.


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## galumay (2 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> It can be much broader than just selling.  Think services, creating market places, providing data or information or even improving people’s lives.  And there’s absolutely no need to be first.  Facebook wasn’t the first social network.  Remember MySpace, Orkut or Friendster?  Facebook wasn’t even the last successful social network.  LinkedIn has a market cap of $28.4 billion.  Twitter is likely to IPO shortly at a valuation of $10-15 billion.  Both came after facebook.
> 
> What about this website?  I don't think Joe was the first to come up with the idea of a forum.  He definitely wasn't even the first to develop an investment forum.  And he wasn't even the first to do it in Australia.
> 
> There's no need to be first, just better.




Fair points, although I am pretty sure neither Facebook, LinkedIn nor Twitter make any money!

Not sure that Joe is getting rich from this website either!

I agree its a massive marketplace and gives nearly anyone with a desire the ability to create a website and tap into the market, but monetising most content other than pr0n has proved to be difficult! 

I guess the biggest positive is the almost zero cost of entry compared to traditional small business, so at least you can have a go while risking very little.


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## doctorj (2 October 2013)

galumay said:


> Fair points, although I am pretty sure neither Facebook, LinkedIn nor Twitter make any money!



Twitter are estimated to have revenues of $583 million this year, but we’ll find out exact numbers when they publish ahead of their IPO later this week.  Facebook had $1.81 billion in revenue in Q2 2013 alone.  LinkedIn reported revenues for Q2 2013 of $363.7 million. 

Actually, I have to admit to being a little shocked.  I knew they were big, but had no idea just how big until I checked.



galumay said:


> I agree its a massive marketplace and gives nearly anyone with a desire the ability to create a website and tap into the market, but monetising most content other than pr0n has proved to be difficult!
> 
> I guess the biggest positive is the almost zero cost of entry compared to traditional small business, so at least you can have a go while risking very little.




Monetising is tough, but gone are the days where people don’t make money on the internet.    The point is, each dollar you invest online has massive potential leverage given the size of the market.  

Look at Last.FM.  It was a social network/radio streaming platform.  Index Ventures invested $5 million into their series A in 2006 and it was acquired by CBS in 2007 for $280 million.  Now obviously they didn’t have 100% of the company, but it’s fair to say they did pretty well.


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## galumay (2 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> Twitter are estimated to have revenues of $583 million this year, but we’ll find out exact numbers when they publish ahead of their IPO later this week.  Facebook had $1.81 billion in revenue in Q2 2013 alone.  LinkedIn reported revenues for Q2 2013 of $363.7 million.
> 
> Actually, I have to admit to being a little shocked.  I knew they were big, but had no idea just how big until I checked.




Well that shows how much attention I have paid! I really didn't imagine they made any money, how do they make money? I assume the only revenue stream is advertising?

anyway i think we are dragging this off topic so i will go and learn a bit more about internet business models!


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## doctorj (2 October 2013)

galumay said:


> Well that shows how much attention I have paid! I really didn't imagine they made any money, how do they make money? I assume the only revenue stream is advertising?



Mostly advertising.  For me, LinkedIn has the most interesting potential – in addition to advertising they offer subscriptions to recruiters with enhanced search functions to help them find candidates.  This could develop in all sorts of interesting ways.  For example, they could eat the revenue of the recruiters themselves by making it easier for companies to find candidates directly.  




MrBurns said:


> So when you're sitting down sweating over the mortgage payments give some thought to how these guys think BIG and don't give a stuff about anything else.




Sorry for dragging this off topic.  I think your point above is exactly right.  You don’t make big money by doing something small.  And if what you are doing is easy and people thought was it was straightforward, someone else would of done it already.


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

> You don’t make big money by doing something small. And if what you are doing is easy and people thought was it was straightforward, someone else would of done it already.




A lot of truth in that written here.
But to perhaps add a little.
Lots of small things can accumulate into something large---think franchises.
Many things are done buy different people there are Small struggling plumbers and very large plumbing companies.
Those who do it better tend to stand out.

But as I learnt many years ago.
Anyone can turn over a $$ (as we can see in not only my exercise on technical trading but in pretty well all models being offered up for discussion on ASF)
But few maximise profit. 
True for Business (and or investment) in ALL forms.


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## McLovin (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> there are Small struggling plumbers




There are?


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

McLovin said:


> There are?




There certainly are.
1 man and an apprentice type start ups are struggling to find work.
so are carpenters, roof fixers and smaller earthworks operators.


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## sydboy007 (3 October 2013)

I suppose it is a bit of the fear to take action and wear the failure than has held me back over the years.

My goals are pretty tame though.  I just want a comfortable life.  Now that I'm debt free I can live on 1K a month relatively easily for the day to day expenses, and that still lets me head out for the odd meal or movie etc.

The only large expense I have is travel, and that's the comfortable part i want to have from a passive income.

hats off to those who see the opportunity and grab it.  I've had a few chances in the past but hesitated and missed out.

I'm not too worried about it, though now work has a call centre in Manila doing some of the residential work I might have a bit of an incentive to look harder for those opportunities and make use of them in the future.


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I suppose it is a bit of the fear to take action and wear the failure than has held me back over the years.
> 
> My goals are pretty tame though.  I just want a comfortable life.  Now that I'm debt free I can live on 1K a month relatively easily for the day to day expenses, and that still lets me head out for the odd meal or movie etc.
> 
> ...





I think yours is more the "norm" for just about everyone working in the western world.
I also believe that its is more achievable here than most anywhere else on the planet.


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## See Change (3 October 2013)

I think fear of what can go wrong is the biggest thing that holds people back , not only in achieving " wealth " but also in many aspects of life . 

My father is a example . Highly intelligent , was CEO of two major companies before going in to academia later in life ( they wanted someone with real world experience ...) and retiring as an Emeritus Professor at one of the Leading Uni's   Numerous times he thought of going into business for himself , but there was always a reason why not to go it . He has always been cautious and  partly because he is well aware of what can go wrong , he worried about that . 

Still does .

I'm contemplating moving work at the moment , and our conversation yesterday was all about the negative aspects of what could go wrong. 

Cliff


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## Gringotts Bank (3 October 2013)

There's also fate.  By this I mean the sort of life you were born into.  You didn't choose it... or did you?  If you did, why did you?

If you were born a negro in the southern states of the US in the early part of last century, then forget it!  None of the above applies!  Not all obstacles can be overcome, you know.  

So who chooses if you're born into the Rockerfeller family or the Nappyhead clan?  Nature... or Life, let's call it Life.  Who chooses if you're born an eskimo or a Parisian?  Life.  What about your body, your looks, your temperament, your health, your entire genetic makeup?  Maybe you'd like to claim that you made those choices yourself, but I don't think so!  Life does its own thing, and this whole idea of personal control and free will and "you can do it!" gets a bit overdone I think.  If you can do it, great... go big.  If you can't, don't be too fussed.  Life has probably already decided the day that you're gonna die, and it hasn't even had the common courtesy to tell you!


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> There's also fate.  By this I mean the sort of life you were born into.  You didn't choose it... or did you?  If you did, why did you?
> 
> If you were born a negro in the southern states of the US in the early part of last century, then forget it!  None of the above applies!  Not all obstacles can be overcome, you know.
> 
> So who chooses if you're born into the Rockerfeller family or the Nappyhead clan?  Nature... or Life, let's call it Life.  Who chooses if you're born an eskimo or a Parisian?  Life.  Maybe you'd like to claim that you made those choices yourself, but I don't think so!  Life does its own thing, and this whole idea of personal control and free will and "you can do it!" gets a bit overdone I think.  If you can do it, great... go big.  If you can't, don't be too fussed.  Life has probably already decided the day that you're gonna die, and it hasn't even had the common courtesy to tell you!




GB

We are here and we are now.
We know where we are and we know our *CURRENT* position in our life.
Now that that is a given
We all have the very same opportunity as everyone else.
Many have come from nothing and ended with everything.
Many have had everything and ended with nothing.

If you have the will 
*YOU WILL FIND A WAY.*


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## Gringotts Bank (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> GB
> 
> We are here and we are now.
> We know where we are and we know our *CURRENT* position in our life.
> ...




I don't mean to sound too fatalistic, because that can lead to lassitude.  It's good to utilize whatever talents one has, but such things are not equally distributed across the population.  I was born into a pretty comfortable life, so I'm not complaining.


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## prawn_86 (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> GB
> 
> We are here and we are now.
> We know where we are and we know our *CURRENT* position in our life.
> ...




I don't agree with this in red (Neither does Bill Gates). Where you are born is pretty much the biggest influencing factor on your ability to 'succeed' and the level of comfort you can achieve.

If you are born in a 3rd World country, no matter how smart you have the potential to be the odds are stacked against you. If you need to spend hours a day just walking to get food/water then the best you can hope for is a lot less than the best someone born in a Western country can


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## galumay (3 October 2013)

You guys are correct, obviously we dont all have the same opportunity. 

One point i think the duck quacks correctly on, there are few places in the world with better opportunities than this country.


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## McLovin (3 October 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> I don't agree with this in red (Neither does Bill Gates). Where you are born is pretty much the biggest influencing factor on your ability to 'succeed' and the level of comfort you can achieve.
> 
> If you are born in a 3rd World country, no matter how smart you have the potential to be the odds are stacked against you. If you need to spend hours a day just walking to get food/water then the best you can hope for is a lot less than the best someone born in a Western country can




+1

Even being born in a country like Australia not everyone will have the same opportunities.


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## See Change (3 October 2013)

While fate does come into it , personally I've found the harder I work , the luckier I get .   Some of that work is spending time on the internet seeing what every one else thinks about what is happening , or is going to happen 

I don't classify us as wealthy, though in middle class standards , we are well off .

Cliff


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> GB
> 
> *We are here and we are now.*
> We know where we are and we know our *CURRENT* position in our life.
> ...






prawn_86 said:


> I don't agree with this in red (Neither does Bill Gates). Where you are born is pretty much the biggest influencing factor on your ability to 'succeed' and the level of comfort you can achieve.
> 
> If you are born in a 3rd World country, no matter how smart you have the potential to be the odds are stacked against you. If you need to spend hours a day just walking to get food/water then the best you can hope for is a lot less than the best someone born in a Western country can




The Blue was directed at US--- those on this site---*NOT* the whole world!

I would argue that pretty well all of those reading the posts were born NAKED and PENNILESS and UN EDUCATED
regardless of parental wealth.
So If your in a country other than a Third world country then---- if you have the will
you'll find a way.

*I strongly disagree Mc Lovin*

If you don't take up the opportunities that *ABOUND* in a country like Australia
Then you only have yourself to blame!
I've seen guys with no arms and legs thrive
In a Third World country they certainly wouldn't!


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## Julia (3 October 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> I don't agree with this in red (Neither does Bill Gates). Where you are born is pretty much the biggest influencing factor on your ability to 'succeed' and the level of comfort you can achieve.
> 
> If you are born in a 3rd World country, no matter how smart you have the potential to be the odds are stacked against you. If you need to spend hours a day just walking to get food/water then the best you can hope for is a lot less than the best someone born in a Western country can






tech/a said:


> The Blue was directed at US--- those on this site---*NOT* the whole world!
> 
> I would argue that pretty well all of those reading the posts were born NAKED and PENNILESS and UN EDUCATED
> regardless of parental wealth.
> ...



I don't think the qualifiers are just the country in which you were born.  You can be born in Australia and still be inherently disadvantaged via your genes, the behaviour that was modelled to you as a child, etc.

Also, as GB has suggested, not everyone aspires to incredible wealth.  There are plenty of pretty happy people out there living what to most of us might seem like dull and boring lives, earning not much.

Much of our life outcomes go back to the level of inherent desire or drive.


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## McLovin (3 October 2013)

Julia said:


> I don't think the qualifiers are just the country in which you were born.  You can be born in Australia and still be inherently disadvantaged via your genes, the behaviour that was modelled to you as a child, etc.




Yes, that is my point. And on the flipside, you be advantaged by those factors too. There was a Four Corners episode last year, I think, that showed the inter-generational poverty in south-west Sydney. It's pretty heartbreaking to see kids at 12 who have basically had it drummed into them that they will never amount to anything in life and are already skipping school for days at a time. 

NB: I'm not saying that poverty creates a lack of drive but that in that instance a lack of drive was surely a causal factor in the poverty.


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## ROE (3 October 2013)

McLovin said:


> Yes, that is my point. And on the flipside, you be advantaged by those factors too. There was a Four Corners episode last year, I think, that showed the inter-generational poverty in south-west Sydney. It's pretty heartbreaking to see kids at 12 who have basically had it drummed into them that they will never amount to anything in life and are already skipping school for days at a time.
> 
> NB: I'm not saying that poverty creates a lack of drive but that in that instance a lack of drive was surely a causal factor in the poverty.




You can see the one that break out of these cycles are the one that take the initiative to break away from this environment... Environment is one of the biggest factor influence a child....parents of these kids need to take the imitative to move away from these places...

Who keeps company with the wolf will learn to howl
Those who sleep with dogs will rise with fleas ...


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

Julia said:


> I don't think the qualifiers are just the country in which you were born.  You can be born in Australia and still be inherently disadvantaged via your genes, the behaviour that was modelled to you as a child, etc.
> 
> Also, as GB has suggested, not everyone aspires to incredible wealth.  There are plenty of pretty happy people out there living what to most of us might seem like dull and boring lives, earning not much.
> 
> Much of our life outcomes go back to the level of inherent desire or drive.




Julia

I've not mentioned or expected my comments to be taken as
we have equal opportunity to have incredible wealth.

My point is and was that we are lucky in where we live and opportunities big and small abound
If we don't take them then we are to blame.


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## McLovin (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> My point is and was that we are lucky in where we live and opportunities big and small abound
> If we don't take them then we are to blame.




tech

Without going around in circles, I strongly disagree that it's that simple. If you've come from a stable home life, with a good education and a decent work ethic then it's a lot easier than coming from a broken, abusive home where everyone you grow up around doesn't or has never worked. A child who grows up in that environment faces far more difficulties than someone who grows up in a leafy suburban middle class family. A warm bed, loving family and full stomach go along way.

That's not say it can't be done, but it's like saying the guy who starts with $10,000 can become a millionaire as easily as the guy who starts with $500k.


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

OK
We won't go in circles but perhaps give different views.

(1) Many with the hard start you point out use it as a catalyst to better themselves rather than a hinderance.
(2) unless your born with a sliver spoon ---- the guy with $500k was once the guy with $10k.

Look I see your points
But no matter how big or how often opportunity presents itself

If there is no will then there will be NO WAY.


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## doctorj (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> OK
> We won't go in circles but perhaps give different views.
> 
> (1) Many with the hard start you point out use it as a catalyst to better themselves rather than a hinderance.
> ...




Interesting thoughts.  The way I look at is that achieving exceptional wealth is a statistical outlier.  The odds of everything working out and building hundreds of millions or even billions of wealth are incredibly small.  You’d have to be way out in the tail somewhere.   Therefore with odds that low, even if starting with half as much makes it twice as hard, whether you have a 0.0001% chance or a 0.0002% chance doesn’t make a lot of difference…


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## MrBurns (3 October 2013)

Wealth comes to those who are willing to put it all on the line, bankruptcy comes from that as well.

Some get rich from being purely reckless like gambling, they usually lose it all eventually, others are bold but with a plan well thought through.

Everyone's different and will attain wealth by different methods, thinking big is a common denominator.


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## Gringotts Bank (3 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> The way I look at is that achieving exceptional wealth is a statistical outlier.




Same here, but I don't think luck or random chance has any part in it.  

There's an *extremely *high chance that if you grew up with people who have a certain level of wealth and lifestyle, that you will tend towards that very same level of wealth and lifestyle.  It's not all about one's parents however.  Childhood peer group plays a huge part also.  One or the other will predict your trajectory with a very high degree of accuracy.  And as you say, occasionally an outlier occurs, maybe through chance and sometimes through sheer bloody-minded effort.

Regarding the OPs comments on fear, I agree.  But fear (or lack of it) is determined through early childhood experiences modeled through the parents and also through genetics! ...so once again a lot of this stuff is set early in life.  Those who do manage to break free of their early learning are to be applauded.  The odds of this are very much stacked against you, however.


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## McLovin (3 October 2013)

tech/a said:


> If there is no will then there will be NO WAY.




On that I agree.


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## moXJO (3 October 2013)

McLovin said:


> tech
> 
> Without going around in circles, I strongly disagree that it's that simple. If you've come from a stable home life, with a good education and a decent work ethic then it's a lot easier than coming from a broken, abusive home where everyone you grow up around doesn't or has never worked. A child who grows up in that environment faces far more difficulties than someone who grows up in a leafy suburban middle class family. A warm bed, loving family and full stomach go along way.
> 
> That's not say it can't be done, but it's like saying the guy who starts with $10,000 can become a millionaire as easily as the guy who starts with $500k.




I disagree the guy in the middle class family doesn't really want for more. A good education and uni is a nice way of getting a good job. The majority are comfortable and their fear of losing what they have generally keep them comfortable. Those that come from nothing see what they are missing out on and have nothing to lose. Knowing you can survive on/with nothing is as good a motivator as any. I know a few that came from the worst conditions to make it between the $1-$50 mill range. I don't think its any easier for a guy from middle class.

As someone else mentioned a lot of the millionaires I have met don't come across as high IQ.


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## Smurf1976 (3 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Much of our life outcomes go back to the level of inherent desire or drive.



Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.

If your self image is low, then the attempts of others to push you higher will almost certainly fail. That goes for everything from weight loss to career advancement. If you don't actually want to improve then any attempt to do so will almost certainly fail once the inevitable difficulties arise along the way.


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## doctorj (3 October 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.




I really like this.  Very true!


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## tech/a (3 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> I really like this.  Very true!




Yes
We all rise to our level of incompetence.


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## doctorj (3 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Everyone's different and will attain wealth by different methods, thinking big is a common denominator.



Good point!  You don't make big money by solving small problems.

The richest guy I know owns an insurance company in Russia.  In fact, I think it’s the largest insurer that isn’t owned or started by the government.  How it came about is a story of triumph of sheer craziness overcoming common sense.

The company started just after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  At the time, the streets of Moscow were in disarray.  Anyone who was anyone was taking what they could, members of the state security bodies (e.g. KGB) moved into organised crime and there were no police on the street.  It was very common for individuals or small businesses to be forced to pay ‘protection money’ to gangs just to keep on going.

At this time, there were two brothers that saw an opportunity.  They had some friends outside Russia and were able to borrow just enough money to buy a second hand German car in Germany and drive it back to Moscow.  They also managed to get just enough money (think 10’s of thousands) to start an insurance company.  

They couldn’t afford an office, so they ran it out of a small one room apartment that they slept in too.  The idea was that they would drive to meet clients and offer to bring them back to their ‘office’ to discuss insurance.  Meanwhile the customer would be so impressed by their fancy car that was unlike any of the Ladas or Volgas that were on the street and the traffic would be so bad, that they’d be able to close the deal from the front seat of the car.

And it worked.  I can’t go in to details as they’re not public, but a few years ago, AXA bought a minority stake in the company in a deal that saw the founders receive billions (dollars, not rubles!).  They achieved this by insuring cars and property at a time there was chaos in the streets, crime was rampant and there was virtual lawlessness.  These guys thought BIG, achieved the impossible and now can enjoy the results.


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## Julia (3 October 2013)

McLovin said:


> tech
> 
> Without going around in circles, I strongly disagree that it's that simple. If you've come from a stable home life, with a good education and a decent work ethic then it's a lot easier than coming from a broken, abusive home where everyone you grow up around doesn't or has never worked. A child who grows up in that environment faces far more difficulties than someone who grows up in a leafy suburban middle class family. A warm bed, loving family and full stomach go along way.
> 
> That's not say it can't be done, but it's like saying the guy who starts with $10,000 can become a millionaire as easily as the guy who starts with $500k.



+1.



tech/a said:


> OK
> We won't go in circles but perhaps give different views.
> 
> (1) Many with the hard start you point out use it as a catalyst to better themselves rather than a hinderance.
> (2) unless your born with a sliver spoon ---- the guy with $500k was once the guy with $10k.



Sure, but this is probably the exception.  Consider why we have multigenerational welfare.

Something we all quite naturally do is judge the capacity of others by what we ourselves have achieved.
I'd bet many here were brought up (as I was) with intelligent, educated parents who placed a high value on taking responsibility for their own outcomes, financially and socially.
So as we mature we absorb this philosophy and the results are more or less as expected.

Contrast that with someone who is raised in a household where there is multigenerational welfare, where the children have never experienced a member of that household who has worked, who absorb the philosophy that it's normal to feel like a victim, and that the state will take responsibility for you.  It's going to be a very exceptional person who will be able to break out of that mindset.



> If there is no will then there will be NO WAY.



Agree absolutely, but the point I keep trying to make is that "The Will" is often as fixed as having any other characteristic and that it will usually take a strong outside influence to allow the person in victim mode to appreciate that they even have a choice.



Smurf1976 said:


> Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.
> 
> If your self image is low, then the attempts of others to push you higher will almost certainly fail. That goes for everything from weight loss to career advancement. If you don't actually want to improve then any attempt to do so will almost certainly fail once the inevitable difficulties arise along the way.



Agree.  But I also believe one's self image can be changed.  It once again comes back to WILL.


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## MrBurns (3 October 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.
> 
> If your self image is low, then the attempts of others to push you higher will almost certainly fail. That goes for everything from weight loss to career advancement. If you don't actually want to improve then any attempt to do so will almost certainly fail once the inevitable difficulties arise along the way.




That really rings true...........


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## See Change (4 October 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.
> 
> If your self image is low, then the attempts of others to push you higher will almost certainly fail. That goes for everything from weight loss to career advancement. If you don't actually want to improve then any attempt to do so will almost certainly fail once the inevitable difficulties arise along the way.




Spot on.

I also think that coming from a comfortable middle class is not something that drives people to " wealth ", but to a degree that depends on what you define as wealth . 

1 mill dollars doesn't get you a very nice home on the north shore in Sydney.  You need high 1's to 2 to get that and  if you want to look wealthy and be perceived as that ( Doesn't worry me ) and buy a water front house in Sydney , the entry price starts at around 4 mill.

A comfortable upper middle class back ground will get you into mac bank / PWC etc and the high incomes that come with that ( obviously many people would consider these people wealthy )  , but many of the really wealthy come from struggle st back grounds ( though being a member of the labour party can help as well .... ) . think John McGrath , Nathan Tinkler . A comfortable background doesn't give you that extreme drive that a less comfortable background does .

Interesting thing I've noted, is that the extremely wealthy often are quite dysfunctional in most other aspects of their lives , with broken marriages , estranged kids , a single purpose to their lives etc ( though those occur at every level of society ).

Cliff


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## tech/a (4 October 2013)

Actually I'll do a backflip on this
My wife has a number of Street kids she looks after 
And points out that pretty well all who have not had a father
Figure with leadership and support are way way behind the general populace


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## IFocus (4 October 2013)

Just a little off beat comment. 

By historical standards we all have attained incredible wealth by pure chance no one in the history of man has been more fortunate.

By being born in Australia at this time we are actually mega rich and some compared to all those humans that have ever lived on the planet. 

The odds of this happening are massive like winning lotto in fact we all have already won the big one.

Niccolo Machiavelli had a nice quote on opportunity and wealth unfortunately i couldn't find it.


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## Buckfont (4 October 2013)

IFocus said:


> Just a little off beat comment.
> 
> By historical standards we all have attained incredible wealth by pure chance no one in the history of man has been more fortunate.
> 
> ...




This is a good site for famous quotes..............

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/niccolo_machiavelli.html


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## Country Lad (4 October 2013)

IFocus said:


> Niccolo Machiavelli had a nice quote on opportunity and wealth unfortunately i couldn't find it.




Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage.
Niccolo Machiavelli


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## MrBurns (4 October 2013)

IFocus said:


> Just a little off beat comment.
> 
> By historical standards we all have attained incredible wealth by pure chance no one in the history of man has been more fortunate.
> 
> ...




We are about the luckiest people in the world yet still complain if our porridge isn't warm enough.


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## sydboy007 (4 October 2013)

Sometimes I worry we focus too much on the material wealth, and not enough on the joy / wealth of living, and just being happy with what we have.

I hurt my back earlier in the year at the gym.  I spent 2 days in absolute agony.  I never knew it could hurt to breath, or that the pain could literally make me sweat and nearly black out just trying to get out of bed.  I honestly don't know how people with chronic pain cope.

I was rather downfallen that so many people would push past me while i was valiantly trying to climb some stairs at the train station on my way to see if the chiropractor could help, though one woman did ask me if I was OK.  I was so scared to fall over because i didn't think I could get up again with the pain.  It had been bad enough getting out of bed when i could eventually get my legs over the edge.

So to me wealth is having a healthy body and being able to do the simple things.  I don't think there's any amount of money that would be worth giving up the wealth of independence.

When I went to my year 12 reunion in 2000 I noticed that the seemingly most happy ones were those who had such "small" lives.  It was like they grew up in a valley and every so often looked to the top of the valley hills, enjoyed the view, then went back to what they were doing with nary a thought about what was beyond their sight.  Seems once you want to know what's over the hill, you can't quite maintain that sense of happiness.

As others have said, we're probably in the top 15% of the richest humans to have ever lived on the earth.  We buy clothes and don't even wear them, yet 60 years ago my dad had a good set of clothes and a couple of worn sets for school and working on the farm.  He hardly wore shoes unless he really had to so they wouldn't wear out too quickly and be passed on to the next youngest.

I think it's part of growing up poor.  I never really wanted much of the material things in life.  Could get books for free at the library and spent most warm days at the beach.  i see some of my friends always on the fashion escalator (which goes down) and the mad scramble they have to keep in vogue.  Costs them a fortune.  I'm happy with my less fashionable look that stands the test of time, and much easier on the wallet.

It's not the absolute level of material wealth, more how you perceive it, and how happy you choose to be.  I prefer to enjoy what I have than constantly trying to add to it.

If I can attain the wealth to let me work for what I enjoy, not for a living, I'll be a very happy camper


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## Smurf1976 (4 October 2013)

Agreed with what you're saying there.

As I've said before on this forum, personally I don't need to spend a huge amount to be happy.

The computer I'm using right now is somewhat dated. But it does what I want it to do, so I see no reason to buy a new one that won't do anything I can't already do with this one.

The car I have is a year 2000 model and it's running fine. So long as it's suitable for my needs and running well, I see no reason to get a newer one. But then it's properly serviced and roadworthy - I like value, not "cheap and nasty". If I need a different car then I'll get one, but thus far this one is fine.

I'll be travelling outside the state 4 times over the next 5 months not due to an actual need, but because I want to do various things. But suffice to say that for three of these trips staying in 2 - 3 star hotels, sitting at the back of the plane and catching the bus from the airport into the city are fine with me. As for the other trip, well I'm thinking of taking the boat (Spirit of Tas) simply because I want to.

For me, it comes down to perceived value. I don't need gold plated taps in hotels or fancy seats on a plane. But I'm willing to pay the extra $ to sleep in a proper bed on the ship rather than sitting in a chair all night. And I'm not at all worried at the prospect of paying $1000+ for tickets to a few events I want to go to.


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## MrBurns (5 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> If I can attain the wealth to let me work for what I enjoy, not for a living, I'll be a very happy camper




Well said, now if you can only become a Lib voter


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## sydboy007 (5 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Well said, now if you can only become a Lib voter




If I'd been a voter 40 years ago I could have been tempted, but with the current mobs (of all political persuasions) in Parliament, I think we're on a very fragrant creek and no amount of paddles will get us back


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## sydboy007 (5 October 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me, it comes down to perceived value. I don't need gold plated taps in hotels or fancy seats on a plane. But I'm willing to pay the extra $ to sleep in a proper bed on the ship rather than sitting in a chair all night. And I'm not at all worried at the prospect of paying $1000+ for tickets to a few events I want to go to.




Yeah.  I'm always getting "Your going on holiday aGAIN?"  I suppose it's partly about priorities.  Unless you've hit the mega rich status you can't have it all, so better to prioritise and decide what's important and focus on obtaining it.Unfortunately the travel bug is incurable, but the treatment doesn't have to be that expensive 

But I travel the budget airlines, or make good use of the credit card miles I've earned.  Friends couldn't believe I did SYD BALI Kuala Lumpur Krabi Bangkok Taipei Bangkok for $750 a few years back.  My dentist in KL asked me to be her travel agent .  I get happy when I receive an email from a budget airline with a new route to somewhere I've not been before.  Out comes the spreadsheet and itinerary planning begins which for me is half the fun of travel.

I dun mind the odd night of luxury in a hotel.  If I can score deal on Hotwire I'm happy, but as long as I can book a room close to public transport in a safe location, reviews don't mention saggy beds or smelly rooms, then I'm happy.  If ya ever in Melbourne I recommend the Miami hotel as a great budget place to stay.  Only a few minutes walk to the viictoria markets.  I don't understand the need to pay $400 a night for a room.  I was rather happy with my $18 a night room in Bali a couple of months ago.  10 day holiday and it only cost me 56,000 miles and ~$900 which included around $300 worth of shopping and a couple of big dinners at sushi tei eating some delicious japanese food.  I miss those lazy days of reading by the hotel pool or beach hopping.


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## Smurf1976 (5 October 2013)

As others have noted, a lot comes down to recognising an opportunity and actually doing something about it.

4 years ago there was a company offering to put solar panels on the roof for $0. Yep, $0. They supply and install everything, paid by the government rebates. They even paid for the phone call to contact them and the postage stamp to return the forms etc.

There are hundreds of houses in the area I live in, only about 1% taking up the offer.

Sure, putting a few panels on the roof isn't going to make me rich but it's an ongoing cost saving for $0 investment and just a few minutes of my time. Suffice to say that I've since expanded the system at my own expense, earning a nice 16.1% per annum return (tax free) on my investments in solar.

Sure, if you want to make $ millions then you're going to need to do something with the potential to make that sort of money and you can't do that with a few panels on the roof. But it's truly amazing how much most people throw away by failing to take advantage of what's on offer. People baulk at paying a few cents extra for petrol, but with practically everything else they seem willing to pay far more than is necessary in order to get what they need.

With a bit of planning, you can get many things at a discount and collectively they add up to a considerable sum of money. It won't make you mega rich, but the average person can certainly improve their financial situation simply by taking advantage of the discounts easily obtained in day to day living. There's no need to sit in the dark living on baked beans to do it.


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## Julia (5 October 2013)

> I don't understand the need to pay $400 a night for a room.



Depends what you get for the $400.  Last time we went to Sydney we stayed at Quay West Apartments, in the heart of the Rocks, 1 bedroom apartment with very spacious living area and well equipped kitchen, plus a balcony.
It was on a high floor, and the views over the harbour, the Bridge and right out almost to the heads, was just spectacular.  Lying in bed watching the sun come up over the harbour and sitting out on the balcony with a bottle of wine as the city lights came on at dusk was just gorgeous.

Plus great staff and beautiful indoor pool in one of the most convenient locations in Sydney.   Worth every cent.
I can't remember exactly how much now, but I think around $320 per night.


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## ROE (5 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Sometimes I worry we focus too much on the material wealth, and not enough on the joy / wealth of living, and just being happy with what we have.
> 
> I hurt my back earlier in the year at the gym.  I spent 2 days in absolute agony.  I never knew it could hurt to breath, or that the pain could literally make me sweat and nearly black out just trying to get out of bed.  I honestly don't know how people with chronic pain cope.
> 
> ...




Yeah I am in the same camp, I don't really want to make a lot of money, more money at the expense of other things doesn't do anything for me right now

Right now I am stress free, have heap of time, I get to do thing thing I enjoy everyday...

I am in a goldilocks stage and would not swap for more money 
or anything else to upset the current position...


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## ROE (5 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Depends what you get for the $400.  Last time we went to Sydney we stayed at Quay West Apartments, in the heart of the Rocks, 1 bedroom apartment with very spacious living area and well equipped kitchen, plus a balcony.
> It was on a high floor, and the views over the harbour, the Bridge and right out almost to the heads, was just spectacular.  Lying in bed watching the sun come up over the harbour and sitting out on the balcony with a bottle of wine as the city lights came on at dusk was just gorgeous.
> 
> Plus great staff and beautiful indoor pool in one of the most convenient locations in Sydney.   Worth every cent.
> I can't remember exactly how much now, but I think around $320 per night.




+1 peak season in popular place $400 is normal, I usually dont have luxury of going off peak as I have to follow the kids school holiday time table and every we go it expensive during these times....Hotel, Air fare, Cruise, Activities. 

but hey that why you invest  to get enough money to be able to do that sort of stuff but not to go over the top.


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## sydboy007 (5 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Depends what you get for the $400.




True, still when you spend around 7 weeks a year paying for a hotel room, I generally try to budget.  When it comes to travel, I do like the quantity 

Hopefully my employer isn't watching, but I do find at 4am on a quiet night shift I'm able to do a bit of hunting around for bargains.

As smurf says, there's plenty of bargains out there, discounts etc, but a lot of people are either too lazy or sometimes too proud to take advantage of them.

I have a lot of respect for Buffett as he has the wealth, yet still a fairly simple outlook on life.  I get to se to omany in the financial industry at Martin Place looking a million dollars in their suits and sports cars, but I bet the majority of them are geared up to the point they probably stress themselves to sleep each night.

I do think we've started to follow what the Singaporeans call the 4Cs - Car, Cash, Credit card, Condo - and a 5th one for the truly rich - Country club membership.  To me that is not a true measure of wealth, especially if it comes with a meanness of spirit.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 October 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I've learned over the years is that you cannot exceed your own self image.




I know what you're saying but there's a really important proviso, and that is: I can always *act* in a way which is beyond my current self image.

When I'm a baby, my self-image is that I am a helpless baby who can't walk.  My actions have to exceed my self-image in order to learn how to walk and take care of myself.  Desire makes me act, then the self image changes.  Then the new image creates the new reality.

This is the essence of behavioural therapy - acting outside of one's self image.  The theory goes that if I act like the person I want to be, the subconscious imprints start to fall in line with that.  A new self image is created, and a new reality follows.

The other option in life is to see the self image as just that... merely an image, a concept... something only adolescents hang onto.  But that's for the religion thread.


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## Garpal Gumnut (6 October 2013)

Attaining Wealth imo requires the following.

1. Luck
2. Resilience
3. Hard work
4. Not following the crowd.
5. Not worrying about losing your wealth.

They are my five essential requirements

It helps if you can do the following.

1. Come from a home that is poor in assets but rich in hope and love.
2. Not be overly impressed by ostentatious wealth.
3. Marry the only child of a very rich person in poor health who doesn't intend to give their money to some stupid cat charity.
4. Buy low sell high.
5. Control your expenditure.
6. Have friends who are not ostentatious, but all the way from poor to wealthy.
7. Get involved with your community, do pro bono work etc.

gg


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## MrBurns (6 October 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Attaining Wealth imo requires the following.
> 
> 
> 5. Not worrying about losing your wealth.




That's the hard one.


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## Garpal Gumnut (6 October 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Attaining Wealth imo requires the following.
> 
> 1. Luck
> 2. Resilience
> ...






MrBurns said:


> That's the hard one.




Though not a godbotherer I find a biblical phrase from Psalm 23:4 quite moot.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

I translate this as self belief when I have to make a difficult decision.

Another translation of the good psalm is.

" **** Happens "

gg


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## Julia (6 October 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> 5. Not worrying about losing your wealth.



Disagree with this one.  No need to worry about it, but it makes sense to always protect your capital.


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## TikoMike (6 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> That's the hard one.




Still trying to find the right one to marry?


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## Garpal Gumnut (6 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Disagree with this one.  No need to worry about it, but it makes sense to always protect your capital.




There is a difference between active protection of wealth and worry about losing it.

I know some very wealthy people paralysed by their wealth leading dreadfully worrisome lives, worse than a resident in Vinnies.

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (6 October 2013)

TikoMike said:


> Still trying to find the right one to marry?




I rarely speak of the first Mrs Gumnut, but she was a millionaire's daughter.

Not why I married her though.

Believe it or not.

gg


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## TikoMike (6 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Disagree with this one.  No need to worry about it, but it makes sense to always protect your capital.




"worry about it": what does that actually mean?


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