# Education versus Experience



## Jesse Livermore (21 July 2005)

Hi,

I have recently been restructuring my resume and wanted to know (as far as finance and investment careers and the business of trading and investment) peoples opinions on *experience as being equivilant to an undergraduate / postgraduate education?  * 

What do you see as the pros and cons of a practical education (experience)?
What do you see as the pros and cons of a theoretical education (university)?

Jesse Livermore


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## krisbarry (21 July 2005)

Jesse Livermore said:
			
		

> What do you see as the pros and cons of a theoretical education (university)?
> 
> Jesse Livermore




con:  

HECS - The start of your poverty trap!  Thousands of students are in crippling debt.

Degree- The degree might not be worth the paper its written on.

Guarentee- A degree  may not leed you to that job you have wanted.

pro:

Degree:- A better chance of landing that higher paid job


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## mime (21 July 2005)

Tough question but I think you need both. A little bit of one and alot of the other or vise versa can make a huge difference.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2005)

Jesse Livermore said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I have recently been restructuring my resume and wanted to know (as far as finance and investment careers and the business of trading and investment) peoples opinions on *experience as being equivilant to an undergraduate / postgraduate education?  *
> 
> ...




It depends what type of experience you are talking about. If you have work experience in the field with a reputable firm, organisation then I would see that as being invaluable - especially backed up by reliable references. However, self gloating experience doesn't mean much to employers for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't invest money in a degree unless there was a job waiting for me at the end of it. You have to factor in the changing global environment which is pushing wages down and globalising the workforces of the world economies. If you have a huge HECS debt, and earn a poverty level income, does that justify your educational investment. No!

But you can always self teach yourself which, any degree of attitude, determination and commitment, can be achieved. You can do this before taking a course which won't break you financially, such as a securities course at the securities institute. 

Work on your communication skills and networking skills. These qualities will help you more in life than degrees if you are working in non scientifical fields. At the end of the day it is all about people. Look at how you can differentiate yourself from the rest out there. 

Good luck Jesse


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## Jesse Livermore (21 July 2005)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> But you can always self teach yourself which, any degree of attitude, determination and commitment, can be achieved.




I am doing this I have structured a self learning program based around:

Bachelor of Economics (1st Year)
Accounting and Financial Management
Microeconomics and Macroeconomics
Business and Economic Statistics

Graduate Diploma in Applied Finance and Investment (SIA)
Financial Markets and Economics
Financial Analysis and Valuation
Security Industry Law and Ethics

"Investment Analysis / Investment Management / Treasury / Corporate Finance"
too many knowledge and skill areas to list

+

PC Hardware + Typing
MS Windows / MS Office / MS Access / VBA
Internet and Telephone Skills etc...

*To learn the above I am supplementing a university education with practical experience and books like:*

Economics
Economics in One Lesson, Henry Hazlit
Basic and Applied Economics, Thomas Sowell
Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith

Finance
?

Investment (Trading and Investment)
Trading for a Living, Elder
Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom, Tharp
Stan Weinstein's Profiting in Bull and Bear Markets, Weinstein
The Disciplined Trader, Douglas
Market Wizards, Schwagger
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, Lefevre
-
One Up on Wall Street, Lynch
The Intelligent Investor, Graham
The Warren Buffet Way, Hagstrom
Buffett: The Making of an American Capitalist

+

Computer Hardware and Software
"For Dummies" Books

I have some more analysis to do on this but I believe I can learn the core of the undergraduate (economics) and postgraduate (finance and investment) courses through books, both theoretical and practical, with addition of practical experience.

Jesse Livermore


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## bvbfan (21 July 2005)

Why is a degree so important? 
Why pay $20,000 for a degree when you can get a graduate diploma which is higher in the Australia Qualifications Framework from Securities Institute for about $11,000
(diploma 8 units @ $500 a unit + grad. dip 8 units @ $800 a unit)

For me doing grad. dip will be easier, not having to go into uni for lectures and tutes, providing I can get through notes ok


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## Smurf1976 (21 July 2005)

My general experience with this sort of thing is:

If there's a legal requirement for a qualification of any sort, such as a licence to drive a truck, electrician's licence or whatever, then there's no way around it. If an employer thinks there is a way around it then you're dealing with a dodgy employer.

Other than that, if it's a job with any level of government then you need the qualification UNLESS there is nobody who applies who has the qualifications in which case it's amazing how far you can get without them.

If it's a large organisation (ASX top 300 company) then experience counts but the qualification would be a big plus. If you could suitably impress someone at the company there is probably a way around it. Something along the lines of an unsolicited approach with a detailed proposal to save a few million $ ought to do the trick although that's likely to be easier with engineering type work than with finance. But if you can't impress like this then you'll probably need the qualifications. Getting another job as a way of getting your foot in the door and being able to impress the right people might work as long as the promotions process isn't too formal.

Not too sure about small business since I've never been employed by one (apart from a single on-commission job) but I do think that you're more likely to have success there without the qualifications if you can prove ability due to the less formalised selection processes.


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## ob1kenobi (22 July 2005)

I think you need a healthy mix of both formal education (ie. within the AQF), self-education (I find that being willing to learn about things opens doors) and hands on experience. There are some professions, where you are required to have a degree qualification for entry to that profession. Not everyone should do a degree, not everyone needs one. I have 4 qualifications, my highest being a Masters degree. My youngest brother dropped out of a Science degree after 18 months, moved into radio and now lives in Prague and flies around Eastern Europe, Dublin and London as a Media Consultant! I know he gets paid more than me and good luck to him. I enjoy what I do, he enjoys what he does and I think that has to be the key to any career plan. The other thing to remember is that there is another important thing to have on your resume, knowing how to live! Some get so caught up in the study, they forget to live and enjoy themselves.


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## mit (22 July 2005)

I'm not in the finance industry but I have probably interviewed over 200-300 people for jobs in the IT industry.

Formal Qualifications -- Unless you have actually done the job being interviewed for I would not look at you unless you had formal qualifications. If you had done the job elsewhere then I wouldn't care.  

The degree was more of a way to reduce the number of applicants for a job as I never found that what was learned in a degree actually was useful for a job with us.

Once the applicant had an interview with me I would look at what they are doing rather than their marks. For IT this meant somebody burning the midnight oil building servers/running an ISP/ website. Also as somebody else mentioned COMMUNICATIONS. It used to frustrate me how many people can do the job but can not write a report or talk to coworkers without getting into a fight.

I'm in a non-IT company and I know most of the other managers in non-IT had the same approach.

So in short if you don't have the direct experience you may need the formal education to get an interview. Once you have an interview your interests and indirect experience can matter more than your marks.

The main difference in finance is that you may be legally required to hold some qualifications.

MIT


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## Bazza (25 July 2005)

I would like to post a view on this subject because I think it is central to life and I hate to see young people led down the wrong path.

Everyone has a view on education as a way to get ahead by getting a better job but the reality is that it is in your own best interests for living a BETTER AND HAPPIER LIFE by getting educated. 

A university education provides you with the skills and understanding to be able to research for information that will let you make more informed, more consistently correct decisions about your life. And I can assure you every single little decision impacts on your life considerably.

It is much easier to reject a university education out of hand when you haven't experienced it. And you shouldn't listen to those who have failed to complete their course as they are only perpetuating their own failure. It is difficult and intense especially when you first start but after a while when you get to understand the system it becomes easier. And it is certainly becoming more expensive, but if you can see your way clear to do it you will not regret it.

A university education structures the way you think. Your own experience (and I can assure you I have had plenty) is definitely important because you are the product of your experiences but a decent education allows you to shed a different light on those experiences.

There are two ways to learn from your experiences and other peoples experiences(books, etc). The problem with your own experiences is that they take forever and you cannot predict what you are going to learn or when. In other words the learning is unstructured. And your own experiences take all your life. From books, etc you can spend a couple of hours learning what someone else has taken a lifetime to learn. Or your can look back at humanities lifetime of experiences. An example might be its taken humanity hundreds of years to unravel human DNA building on others discoveries until the riddle was solved but it hasn't finished there and new developments will lead to the unravelling of newer riddles.

So the message is 

"for a better happier life get yourself educated"

Take it from an old man who has lived on both sides of the fence.
Bazza


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## Jesse Livermore (25 July 2005)

Hi,

ASIC PS 146 Compliance is the only qualification that a stockbroker is legally required to hold, universtity degrees are not needed to be a stockbroker It is true that university gives structure to thought, and books can compress learning time, this is why I have structured my "Career Thinking" around

The Bachelor of Economics
Accounting and Financial Management Knowledge and Skills
Microeconomic and Macroeconomic Knowledge and Skills
Business and Economic Statistics Knowledge and Skills,
The Graduate Diploma of Applied Finance and Investment
Financial Markets and Economics Knowledge and Skills
Financial Analysis and Valuation Knowledge and Skills
Security Industry Law and Ethics Knowledge and Skills
Investment Analysis Stream(this one needs more research)
Applied Valuation
Industrial Equity Analysis
Technical Analyis
Portfolio Management

Outstanding Information Technology Skills
PC + Typing - MS Windows / MS Office / MS Access / VBA
Outstanding Business Admistration Skills

I am able to us my *role modelling skills* to model the undergraduate economics course and Postgraduate Finance and Investment Courses, and restructure them to make them relevant to stockbroking / trading and investment, this way I still attain knowledge and skills at this level, however I will not get a formal qualification, my mental framework and skill set will be just as powerful as someone who has.

There are many ways to acquire knowledge and skills that add value to someone else. Everyone is unique and this uniqueness has power, but only the individual can explore and discover what that uniqueness is. People who do not depend on authority for guidance can start now. People who want someone to show them the way may never get started. Dependency on self to develop skills is a powerful skill in itself. This is the tool of people with outstanding success.

Natural learning environments inspire a burning desire to learn, which is a key to fast tracked results and an extraordinary quality of life.

To attain ASIC PS 146 Compliance, training at a "diploma level" is needed Alternativeley 3 years full time experience in a stockbroking environment, then the SIA's "Assessment Only" will qualify you for compliance

*I know I can attain employment with a Business like UBS or Credit Suisse First Boston with:*
A Poweful Economics / Finance / Trading and Investment - IT / Bus Admin Mental Framework and Skill Set 
3 Years Experience in a Stockbroking Envronment
ASIC PS 146 Compliance

Knowledge is only potential power, knowing when to stem ties with the textbooks, and TAKE ACTION is where all the power is, and this is what I believe businesses like UBS and Credit Suisse First Boston want!

Jesse Livermore


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## TjamesX (25 July 2005)

Why do you want to be a stockbroker?


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## ghotib (25 July 2005)

Jesse Livermore said:
			
		

> Knowledge is only potential power, knowing when to stem ties with the textbooks, and TAKE ACTION is where all the power is, and this is what I believe businesses like UBS and Credit Suisse First Boston want!
> Jesse Livermore



Yabbut if they hire through recruitment firms and have personnel departments then there's a good chance that they'll never know you're what they want because a degree is one of the primary filters in the databases. What's more, some of them, like Salomans, cherrypick their trainees from new graduates and some of those, like Salomans, prefer general degrees rather than financial ones. 

Learning is learning; there are many ways to do it and none of them are really shortcuts. IMO mastering anything requires both theory and experience, and in many cases it doesn't matter which one you get first. 

Jesse you say you're structuring your studies around two degrees. What do you mean by that? Are you reading the text books on your own? Taking courses from these degrees but not meeting the degree requirements as such? Looking at the syllabus/course goals and finding ways to meet them? All of the above? None of the above?

FWIW I've dropped out of 2 degrees and had at least 4 careers, depending on how you count them. I've given a lot of thought to your original posting, and I think my view is that having the degree eliminates a possible negative. From what you say you're planning to do the study anyway; why not jump through the extra hoops and get the bit of paper. 

One of the hoops is money, and I agree that exchanging a HECS debt for a degree is not an optimal move. Maybe you could talk your way into a job that interests you with a firm that subsidises study in some way. That way you could be building experience while you study. You'll get pretty tired, but the synergy between work and study can be fantastic.

Can I make one more suggestion Jesse? I'm a little troubled, as well as very impressed, that you are so strongly focussed on trading and investment. I have 2 reasons for being troubled. 1) Trading and investment are at least one step removed from the businesses that make life in general tick. In my experience financial and stockbroking companies tend to have a very homogeneous culture and the people who "make it" have to bypass an enormous chunk of life.  2) We live in very wide and wonderful world, which is also good to experience and to learn about. Focus is necessary for a good life or a good career, but it's not sufficient. We also need breadth of interest. You know, stop and smell the roses - or the gumtrees or the aviation fuel or the barbecue or...

Best wishes

Ghoti


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