# Self Managed Super Fund with only 8K. Possible?



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

Hey, just wondering if it is feasible to start a SMSF that only has 8g in it. The question is that the annual fees might eat away all the profits. I might invest half in one stock company and the other in gold. Now my real concern is how much would an accountant charge for a black and white, clear cut situation. Heck I dont even see the reason why I need one seeing as though I probably wont even be taxed. Please excuse my ignorance as Ive never had any experience with lodging tax stuff. In reality its my mums super loll as bad as that sounds and she doesnt evwn monitor the funds situation. Id rather do it myself than let some greaseball do it plus it will be good experience. Thanks


----------



## tinhat (1 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Hey, just wondering if it is feasible to start a SMSF that only has 8g in it. The question is that the annual fees might eat away all the profits. I might invest half in one stock company and the other in gold. Now my real concern is how much would an accountant charge for a black and white, clear cut situation. Heck I dont even see the reason why I need one seeing as though I probably wont even be taxed. Please excuse my ignorance as Ive never had any experience with lodging tax stuff. In reality its my mums super loll as bad as that sounds and she doesnt evwn monitor the funds situation. Id rather do it myself than let some greaseball do it plus it will be good experience. Thanks




You need an accountant because the fund needs to be audited every year. The esuperfund website say they charge $699 per year but their system may be too restrictive for your needs. You would need to investigate.


----------



## prawn_86 (1 May 2014)

You would need at least 30k at an absolute minimum to make SMSF worthwhile, preferably 100k.

Check out ING, they offer a super product where you can direct invest in shares through their platform, but its not a SMSF so you dont need to set-up your own company or anything like that.

Don't be so sure you can beat the market and lose your mums super either....


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

Okay thanks tin and prawn. My auntie is an accountant but she said shed never help me out for free loll. 699 is way to much considering the account size. Ill check ING our prawn. I wouldnt be comfortable managing 30k or more for that matter. Oh and I highly doubt id beat the market loll till I can work on my discipline and patients. I guess ill just wait and hope for the collapse of the markets so I can short the hell out of over extended stocks and buy me some gold haha.


----------



## Julia (1 May 2014)

There are considerable compliance requirements associated with a SMSF.  It's not something to be used as a toy for your first experiments with the market, not to mention the costs already outlined by others.

I'm not sure if I've correctly understood what you said:  do you actually mean that your mother is happy to give you her $8000 super to experiment with?


----------



## Vixs (1 May 2014)

I think you'll find there's plenty of 'greaseballs' out there that would be better suited to managing someone elses money than yourself at this point in time.

Good luck with your experiments though, hopefully you've learned a thing or two before the money runs out.

'loll'


----------



## Junior (1 May 2014)

It won't get any cheaper than eSuperfund, unless you have an accountant friend who's willing to wear the cost.

Not the greatest idea doing it with $8,000....you'll lose more than 10% per annum just in costs.  Better off taking out a loan if you're that keen on playing with $8,000.  If it's a single member fund you'll need a Corporate Trustee which will push costs even higher.

You can roll it over to Australian Super and buy direct shares there, but it's still not worthwhile with that sort of balance.


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

Julia I wouldnt be asking but some scums stole my dirt bike which I was trying to sell so I cant use that as capital. I understand there are rules and regulations and my mum is not happy to five me 8k but Ive been beggining for months. I would get a job but ive suffered a mental break down and in the stage of re focusing and dealing with that. I dont know about use but my parents never bought me a car or whatever. I try to be conservative and I personally believe family is only usefull if they are going to help you and vise vera. Seeing as im going all in with this career I dont care if I lost thousands as long as I eventually make it. Consider it intuition fees. I know id help my kids if they were trying to do something good with their lives. 

Vixs believe me half the twats out their dno crap. Tjey go to uni get a degree and think they are. F those rookies. They are learning mistakes from my cash (families same thing). When they lose they blame it on tje markets. So id rather lose my own monwy and gain invaluable experiwncw than some greaseball haha.

Junior tjanks for the tip. Thats what I thought too. And im only pissed cause the worlds full of thieves including the government and I call these fund managers greasebags cause that what half of them are. They chuck your cash where ever and the market does the rest. Plus 8k is nuthing. Thats even to little to start with. Ive learnt the basics for a year and as they say when you actuallu start training thats a wholw new step compared to paper trading.

Adios


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

And vixs dont try to act like you're some don. Every one loses money at the beginning. Thats a fact


----------



## So_Cynical (1 May 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> *Check out ING,* they offer a super product where you can direct invest in shares through their platform, but its not a SMSF so you dont need to set-up your own company or anything like that.




The ING ASX200 Trading super account gives you access to a gold ETF as well.


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

Ok thanks cynical. Ill call them up and get more info.


----------



## So_Cynical (1 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Ok thanks cynical. Ill call them up and get more info.




ING do everything online.

http://www.ingdirect.com.au/superannuation/living-super.html


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 May 2014)

Ok thanks man


----------



## ROE (1 May 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> You would need at least 30k at an absolute minimum to make SMSF worthwhile, preferably 100k.
> 
> Check out ING, they offer a super product where you can direct invest in shares through their platform, but its not a SMSF so you dont need to set-up your own company or anything like that.
> 
> Don't be so sure you can beat the market and lose your mums super either....




+1 

8K is fairly low ball, most of your cash end up in accountant fees and trading fees

look at this way if you do well, you get 10% -15% a year ...it would cost you $700 for accounting/audit and then maybe another 100 or 200 in cost of buy and sell ... you get close to zero return...

and if you don't do well, you add extra 10% to your loss, it wont takes you long before 8K disappear in fees.


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 May 2014)

Unfortunately ROE. It suprises me how Paul Tudor Jones and the likes of them started with little capital and made it into huge sums in a short few years while still controling their risk even if it was leveraged. Anyhow thanks. Ill figure out another way to get some cash together and look into ING


----------



## DeepState (2 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Unfortunately ROE. It suprises me how Paul Tudor Jones and the likes of them started with little capital and made it into huge sums in a short few years while still controling their risk even if it was leveraged. Anyhow thanks. Ill figure out another way to get some cash together and look into ING




Caxton is even funnier.  He ran out of money trading and was basically down to the shirt on this back and could not pay rent, and actually drew down on his AMEX credit card to post margins (ie. zero or negative asset position) and built it up from there into a major firm!  I love that story!

Without wanting to speak for RoE and acknowledging that people like PTJ and Caxton exist, please remember that for every one of them, there are a lot more that try and do not achieve it.  RoE's scenario is on the optimistic side for the general populace of traders and it implies that, in general, traders attempting to manage a portfolio of this size would have trouble justifying it. But you are you.  There is only one of you and you can, for whatever reason, feel that you will do better than this in a sustainable way. 

You are clearly keen to move ahead, if you are aware of the risk then your life is in your own hands and yours to live.

All the best with it. Maybe you'll be the next Caxton.


----------



## ROE (2 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Unfortunately ROE. It suprises me how Paul Tudor Jones and the likes of them started with little capital and made it into huge sums in a short few years while still controling their risk even if it was leveraged. Anyhow thanks. Ill figure out another way to get some cash together and look into ING




Good lucky I am not trying to stop you, just throw out some simple maths for you to considered...
I just happen to know a few people with a lot more capital think they can strike rich in the market

but they find it mighty tough once they start the journey ... sitting and watching and see how other people did it is easier than when you actually put your money on the line.


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 May 2014)

Retired young ill have to look up caxten. I love those type of underdog situations. Gives you hope. I understand that the odds are against you. I know that theres a 95% chance ill never make it as a trader but hopefully by doing the right things, having a strong vision and abit of luck it could work out. Ill be the first to tell people that trading is a death wish to most and im not ignorant of that fact. Im not like some of my cousins who think that you get rich overnight. I found something I like. I havent been really good at societies polirical games in my previous experiences in the work force and trading comes down to making money. Tweaking factors in your trading strategy and such can give you instant results. We all know why tading is so rewarding so yeah I feel like weve got one life and I want to do something exciting. I dont want to rot away like most people stuck in jobs they dont like so ill try to do whatever I can to succeed. ROE I always say to my parents and others its not about starting with capital. I dont care if your a billionaire. If you dont know what you're doing the market will absorb it up in an instant. So first understand how the marlet works and then think about your initial capital. Ive been paper trading for a year and now o feel as though I need to start trading with real money so my learning curve can take on a new stage. You just get frustrated in this game because theres no one to guide you (really guide you). Anyway thats enough of my rant. Thanks for the advice. Win or lose itll be a interesting journey haha.


----------



## McLovin (2 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Julia I wouldnt be asking but some scums stole my dirt bike which I was trying to sell so I cant use that as capital. I understand there are rules and regulations and my mum is not happy to five me 8k but Ive been beggining for months. I would get a job but ive suffered a mental break down and in the stage of re focusing and dealing with that. I dont know about use but my parents never bought me a car or whatever. I try to be conservative and I personally believe family is only usefull if they are going to help you and vise vera. Seeing as im going all in with this career I dont care if I lost thousands as long as I eventually make it. Consider it intuition fees. I know id help my kids if they were trying to do something good with their lives.




I think you should probably consider if you're really mentally prepared to be trading. Suffering a mental breakdown doesn't usually put one in the right frame of mind.


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 May 2014)

Mclovin I put to much pressure for me to succeed and a bunch of factors but im learning to deal with it. I just have to figure out what type of strategy will work best with my weaknesses. Plus its never going to go away the mental anxiety. You can jusy learn to deal with it and it shouldnt stop you from doing what you want.


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 May 2014)

But I agree


----------



## VSntchr (2 May 2014)

ROE said:


> +1
> 
> 8K is fairly low ball, most of your cash end up in accountant fees and trading fees
> 
> ...




This post pretty much should be enough to close the thread.

$8k is good enough for a personal portfolio to "dip your toes in" as you learn.
But for SMSF, your external fee's are going to be ~$1000 at the cheapest. 
So your needing 10-15% just to break even. That means that to achieve a return which is above the historical long run average you will only be breaking even - your entire effort/time is being wasted.

Sorry to deflate your balloon, but you seem like your interested and motivated to succeed - so take the advice of those in this thread - they are smart guys ho have been in the game for a long time and know what they are talking about. 
You mention that successful profitable trading requires you to tinker your strategy - apply this advice to your plan. *Don't give up*, just alter your plan of attack.


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 May 2014)

Thanks value. Agreed. Ill try my best


----------



## So_Cynical (2 May 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Thanks value. Agreed. Ill try my best




Its ok to be positive and all but why set yourself up to fail? 

The facts are that you have 8K in super and an SMSF will cost you $700 http://esuperfund.com.au/ or you could go with Austsuper or ING and have around $250 per year in fees, the $450 difference between the 2 equals 5.6% of your capital...with an SMSF your 5.6% down right from the word go.


----------



## Bill M (2 May 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> ING do everything online.
> 
> http://www.ingdirect.com.au/superannuation/living-super.html






darkhorse70 said:


> Ok thanks man




Hello darkhorse70, I am with that ING product. There are no catches, for cash and term deposits with them there are no fees. You can open the ASX shares trading account and that will cost you $15 per month plus brokerage for buys and sells. You can invest up to 80% of your portfolio in shares and up to 20% in any one stock. (please check pds to be sure)

As others have mentioned, even esuperfund charge $699 per year, plus there is an ATO fee which all SMSF's have to pay, that makes it close to $1,000 per year all up. ING Living Super might just suit you, cheers.


----------



## darkhorse70 (3 May 2014)

Cynical no I meant I was going to abandon that avenue of going through a superfund option as you all said the fees dont make it worth hwhile pursuing. I only asked the initiall question as I wanted to figure out a way if there was a way to bypass most of the fees. Thanks Bill I will definitely check it out. On another positive note we might be moving to NZ to live on a farm and so we can access our super early. Anyhow thanks. Ill let you know how that ING fund goes.


----------



## darkhorse70 (3 May 2014)

Just called ING. Sounds like the best option. Have to do some more digging but thanks for the help guys.


----------

