# Elon Musk



## Gringotts Bank (13 October 2017)

The guy seems so far ahead of the pack.  No trouble attracting capital.  How about this one? 

https://the15min.com/2017/09/07/mus...o-help-people-achieve-financial-independence/


----------



## Value Collector (13 October 2017)

There is something really fishy about that linked article.

1 , The Headline and the last paragraph are weird and make it sound like a scam.

2, Elon investing in that company is old news, why create a new article about it with such a bizarre headline.


----------



## notting (13 October 2017)

He is Jesus


----------



## galumay (14 October 2017)

notting said:


> He is Jesus




As in a mythical creature from the past? 

Or as in turns water into wine?

I certainly think he is a false messiah, sooner or later the market will realise there is very little substance to the hype. Tesla is basically dead in the water, its not a car manufacturer by any meaningful definition.


----------



## Wysiwyg (14 October 2017)

If you want to know what the future is going to be, make it.


----------



## galumay (14 October 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> If you want to know what the future is going to be, make it.




Judging by how little Musk is actually making, I dont think its going to inform or shape the future to any great extent!


----------



## Wysiwyg (14 October 2017)

galumay said:


> Judging by how little Musk is actually making, I dont think its going to inform or shape the future to any great extent!



In reference to Tesla, the conventional car makers weren't ready to move to E.V.'s. It seems to me the Tesla move, timing wise regarding global warming fanaticism, forced the hand of large auto companies to start manufacturing E.V.'s. With a multi billion dollar net worth I don't know what he needs to achieve personally anymore. Favours for mankind? It is inherent to want more money I suppose and people keep throwing it at him even though the businesses won't stand the test of time. Open a store selling picks and shovels to the prospectors.


----------



## DaveDaGr8 (14 October 2017)

galumay said:


> Judging by how little Musk is actually making, I dont think its going to inform or shape the future to any great extent!




You must be thinking of a different Musk.

From wikipedia
_ he has an estimated net worth of $13.9 billion, making him the 80th-wealthiest person in the world._


----------



## notting (15 October 2017)

galumay said:


> As in a mythical creature from the past?
> 
> Or as in turns water into wine?




It's supposed to be funny, as in a pun on the same sex marriage thread. In which I was suggesting a new religion for LGBT's to get marriage endorsement from.
Tesla is God, Elon is the messiah and Tony Abbot is Satan.
Elon seems to be single handedly saving the world as far as I can see! 

*Going off to pray -*
"Our father who art in energy, Hallowed be thy power...."


----------



## Value Collector (16 October 2017)

galumay said:


> Tesla is basically dead in the water, its not a car manufacturer by any meaningful definition.





Really??? I had to check the date on your comment because it seemed like it must have been from 2013, Have you seen the Tesla plant? check out this video, this is the just phase one, the model S production line, the model 3 plant is about 3 times this size.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 October 2017)

You are thinking the majority will be buying Tesla. I think the majority, in + 10 years time when EV's gain traction, will go with the long time established names and their EV's. I am a Toyota person. Sure the first adopters have something to buy now though.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 October 2017)

I see a fair few of these driving around.  They glide along very quietly.


----------



## galumay (16 October 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Really???




Really, they are not really a car manufacturer by any normal definition, they hand make a few cars and have no possible hope of meeting their impossible production targets. They are an irrelevant blip in the industry.

There have been some good articles on the Seeking Alpha analysing just how dire the situation is with Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (16 October 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> You are thinking the majority will be buying Tesla. I think the majority, in + 10 years time when EV's gain traction, will go with the long time established names and their EV's. I am a Toyota person. Sure the first adopters have something to buy now though.




I think Tesla will have a solid market share, but yeah off course the other manufacturers will get on board eventually and get their own stake in the market too.

At the moment Tesla seems like the only one establishing charging networks, I have a model 3 reservation, and I am comfortable buying a Tesla because they have the supercharger network, I want to able to drive between our capital cities, thats not really practical with any other manufacturer at the moment.


----------



## Value Collector (16 October 2017)

galumay said:


> they hand make a few cars and have no possible hope of meeting their impossible production targets. They are an irrelevant blip in the industry.





Hand built???? you are living in 2013, watch this video at the 1.30 minute mark does it look "hand built" to you.




a few cars???

they have built 250,000 so far, and thats just the model S and X line, the model 3 production lines are 3 -4 times the size and ramping up now.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 October 2017)

The world is full of ***** who want to pull him down. That's what happens when you're ahead of the curve.


----------



## galumay (16 October 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Hand built???? you are living in 2013, watch this video at the 1.30 minute mark does it look "hand built" to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Did you look into the anlysis by various people on the Seeking Alpha site? As always its not easy to work out what is fake news!



Gringotts Bank said:


> The world is full of ***** who want to pull him down. That's what happens when you're ahead of the curve.




I think that can be the case with some people, some of the time, but there is a lot of hot air and blue sky with Musk, this is a business model in dire straits, only propped up by a believing market...for the moment.

The world is also full of **** who want to ramp him up, thats what happens when you are selling smoke and mirrors. The jury is out for mine, but I expect that its more likely Tesla will end up a tech wreck than a successful business.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 October 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> That's what happens when you're ahead of the curve.



Colonise Mars ahead of the curve? Any takers. EV ahead of the curve? Been around for over a century.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 October 2017)

How to lose a crowd.  This one doesn't go down too well.  Look into anything too deeply and the abyss will appear at some point.  Not sure how healthy this is.


----------



## Value Collector (16 October 2017)

galumay said:


> Did you look into the anlysis by various people on the Seeking Alpha site? As always its not easy to work out what is fake news!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As you can see in the video I uploaded they are not building "a few cars by hand" so I would look for better sources if I were you.

Tesla may fail, who knows, but I don't think it is likely, and either way Elon has achieved a lot, even if it fails he still diserves praise for what he has done.

Tesla has been burning cash, but only because of the huge capital outlays in building two factories, these are now done and are ramping up production, I think they have a good chance of success, and may be building 500,000 cars per year in a few years.


----------



## galumay (16 October 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I think they have a good chance of success, and may be building 500,000 cars per year in a few years.




If you look at what they are actually achieving in production you would know this is an impossible fantasy. Anyway, you obviously weren't interested enough to read up on how low the actual production is so I cant imagine you are going to change your mind! 

I will leave the discussion there, I have no interest in the company as an investment anyway.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 October 2017)

Making sense now.  Doesn't say much for the medical and related professions, does it?  When a billionaire can't find enough money to pay someone to actually listen properly.  OTOH, his belief may be creating the reality.


----------



## Wysiwyg (17 October 2017)

Oh the trials and tribulations of a modern day capitalist.


----------



## Value Collector (17 October 2017)

galumay said:


> If you look at what they are actually achieving in production you would know this is an impossible fantasy. Anyway, you obviously weren't interested enough to read up on how low the actual production is so I cant imagine you are going to change your mind!
> 
> I will leave the discussion there, I have no interest in the company as an investment anyway.




Mate they have produced 250,000 Model S and X, and the Model 3 production line has only just started up like a month ago.

You need to research what an S curve is. all new production lines follow an S curve in production.

You asked me to read through a site, but you didn't provide a link to any articles, and the site has already mislead you, and their claims have already been debunked, so forgive me for not wanting to trawl through a site.

If there is something in particular you want us to read provide a link, but be sure to fact check it first.


----------



## Value Collector (17 October 2017)

galumay said:


> Really, they are not really a car manufacturer by any normal definition, they hand make a few cars




Can you at least have the intellectual honesty to admit your original claim quoted above is false.

Again if you still think they are "Hand making" cars, watch this video again.

and keep in mind this is the model S production line, the model 3 production line is much much bigger, and only just at the start of the ramp up phase.




This video here show footage Musk tweeted in response to the article I think you might have read, debunking its claims, it shows the Model 3 production line in operation, as the ramp up progresses.



Model 3 production line running at 1/10th speed in early phases of testing, as each production areas passes testing phase and robot training, the production line speeds up. following an s curve.


----------



## Junior (17 October 2017)

Musk started a company which launched a rocket into orbit - first private business to do so.  And has been instrumental in forcing the hand of major car manufacturers to pump billions into EVs.  Oh....and before all that he turned nothing into $200mill.

Very, very impressive character by anyone's standard.


----------



## CanOz (17 October 2017)

Imagine this discussion at the turn of the century, critical of Ford....

Regardless of what one thinks of tesla or musk, he's set "wheels" into motion that cannot be stopped now.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 October 2017)

Junior said:


> Musk started a company which launched a rocket into orbit - first private business to do so.  And has been instrumental in forcing the hand of major car manufacturers to pump billions into EVs.  Oh....and before all that he turned nothing into $200mill.
> 
> Very, very impressive character by anyone's standard.




He jumped the gun by designing an induction engine for the car while everyone else was still using the DC engine with all its problems because it was easier. now all the big car manufacturers have to take battery powered cards seriously.

First mover advantage, especially when he has so much time, should allow him to become a long term car manufacturer. Obviously, the existing manufacturers have advantages with items such as door handles and automation lines experience. But a lot of their advantages, engine patents etc. are irrelevant as the technology is so different. The danger is the Chinese. they can really pump out the cars and are going electric in a big way.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tychodefeijter/2016/05/18/10-new-electric-cars-from-china/#3c9e416e27ef


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2017)

Junior said:


> Musk started a company which launched a rocket into orbit - first private business to do so.  And has been instrumental in forcing the hand of major car manufacturers to pump billions into EVs.  Oh....and before all that he turned nothing into $200mill.
> 
> Very, very impressive character by anyone's standard.




His rocket program is more successful than North Korea, The North Koreans are struggling to get a rocket that can carry a payload across the Pacific Ocean.

Mean while Musk is getting payloads into space, orbiting earth, and then landing the rocket back on its launch pad,.... a bit of a show off really, HAHAHA


----------



## Gringotts Bank (29 October 2017)

Musk makes all our politicians look like pathetic, immature school boys.  No wonder they mock him.


----------



## moXJO (2 November 2017)

China is looking at pumping out electric cars over the next decade. They want petrol cars off the roads asap.
Good time to look for ops to capitalize.


----------



## So_Cynical (2 November 2017)

SpaceX

Tesla is a sideshow, SpaceX will be the big winner, Elon is a super star.

Just have a look at what SpeceX has already done.

https://www.youtube.com/user/spacexchannel


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 November 2017)

Yes Tesla will get swamped by the existing car manufacturers that swap the ICE for the EM. Great idea the intercontinental rocket ship. Shows with enough money anything is possible.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (20 November 2017)

Tesla pitching the hyperloop in Brisbane this week.  Bris-Syd 1 hour trip.


----------



## notting (20 November 2017)

If Elon ever goes broke, he and his family are welcome to come and live at my place for ever.


----------



## Wyatt (20 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes Tesla will get swamped by the existing car manufacturers that swap the ICE for the EM. Great idea the intercontinental rocket ship. Shows with enough money anything is possible.






10000 nm 8.9 sec 1/4 mile

Ya reckon


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 November 2017)

Wyatt said:


> 10000 nm 8.9 sec 1/4 mile
> Ya reckon



Watched the shows on the weekend. Speed isn't important. Tesla should be putting 1000km range batteries in their mass production vehicles. Best range, charging time, battery life and traction motor life will sell like hot cakes.


----------



## sptrawler (20 November 2017)

Wyatt said:


> 10000 nm 8.9 sec 1/4 mile
> 
> Ya reckon





Yep, the only problem is, you have used half the battery charge.

Instant grunt is the major benefit of electric motors, have you ever watched a really long conveyor belt full of ore start, it doesn't pizz about, instant full speed.


----------



## CanOz (21 November 2017)

Says it all really.....


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

CanOz said:


> View attachment 84872
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Elon Musk "driving a gasoline powered car will feel like driving a steam engine with a side of quiche".

That made me laugh.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Watched the shows on the weekend. Speed isn't important. Tesla should be putting 1000km range batteries in their mass production vehicles. .




For 99% of people, a 1000Km range battery would add significant cost for no benefit.

not many people regularly drive that distance with out stopping to stretch the legs, use the toilet and have some lunch. So having a smaller eg cheaper and lighter battery with say a 500 km range is more practical, and on the day you do that 1000km road trip you just charge up during you break.

on road trips, by the time I have gone to the toilet myself, given my dog a toilet break and some water, bought some lunch etc, I would have easily given the car 25 - 30 mins charge, and that allows about 250 kms of driving.

if I started with 480kms of range, and added 250 after my first break, I am already at 730 km's range, and by then probably ready for another break, which would push me to near the 1000km range.

So charging during your natural drive/rest cycle, means you don't need a super high capacity battery, even for road trips.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (21 November 2017)

I heard yesterday that Teslas don't need servicing.  Very occasional brake pad replacement, and tire switching, that's all.  Quite incredible.

The best thing about Musk is he doesn't look to big oil and try to impress, appease or suck up to them.  He just smashes them out of the ball park.  Complete obliteration.

https://www.wired.com/2014/03/car-dealers-fear-teslas-plan-end-oil-changes-forever/


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I heard yesterday that Teslas don't need servicing.  Very occasional brake pad replacement, and tire switching, that's all.  Quite incredible.
> 
> The best thing about Musk is he doesn't look to big oil and try to impress, appease or suck up to them.  He just smashes them out of the ball park.  Complete obliteration.




Tesla cars with tyres don't need the usual tyre changes now?

All cars need servicing. If not the oil filters, the gear boxes then it's the electronic components. 

Cars with sensors and fine instrumentation... it'll pretty much be a write off if you get into any kind of accident. 

It's like dropping your smart phone. The old brick phones you can just throw around, the new smart phones you need covers and protection... and if your kids get their hands on it, my 4months old Samsung got a cracked screen and it'll cost $540 to replace. 

So while Tesla owners, like all owners of pricey cars, would take great care of it. Any minor dent or scratches and it'll be tears and wallet pain.

Not to mention insurance premiums will have to rise for the rest of us fossils once enough, but not enough, EVs are out there. The calculus will have to be... what if this cheap Suzuki hit a $50,000 Tesla/EV that'll cost us insurer $30,000 to fix the back bumper.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

CanOz said:


> View attachment 84872
> 
> 
> 
> ...





We're assuming that performance during the first 5 seconds will be maintained the entire ride. Sometimes it'll just go on for two minutes and then stopped with a big disappointment


----------



## Wyatt (21 November 2017)

Something for the ICE believers


And if that's a bit slow

Check the fuel gauge
And for those who can't get enough
http://www.performancegarage.com.au/blog/what-does-10000hp-cost
Phil Lamattina what an aussie legend


----------



## Gringotts Bank (21 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> All cars need servicing.



http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1087086_tesla-model-s-maintenance-almost-none-required-actually


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Not to mention insurance premiums will have to rise for the rest of us fossils once enough, but not enough, EVs are out there. The calculus will have to be... what if this cheap Suzuki hit a $50,000 Tesla/EV that'll cost us insurer $30,000 to fix the back bumper.




Warren Buffett, perhaps the worlds largest owner of insurance companies, Says driverless vehicles and advanced autonomous safety features are a threat to his vehicle insurance business and will drive down premiums over time.



Tesla is also working with insurance companies to give Tesla owners premiums that are cheaper than average, as the recognise the decreased number of accidents.


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> For 99% of people, a 1000Km range battery would add significant cost for no benefit.



 I would prefer not having to charge often. We are conditioned to around 500km per tank of guzzolene. Yes the cost for range could be a telling factor keeping the average at 500 km per charge just like the ICE's.  Musk is setting the benchmarks and has shown 1000km is possible but only for those who can afford it. Battery life and thus having to replace it at a cost isn't mentioned much.  From Ergon here in Australia, my bold  ...

*Battery life expectancy*

Batteries wear out and a replacement battery will eventually be needed. *Most car manufacturers guarantee their batteries for around 8 years.* Nissan guarantee their batteries against defects for 8 years or 160,000km and capacity loss for 5 years or 96,500km (whichever occurs earlier). 4

*Australians drive an average of 15,000km per year, so an EV owner will expect to replace the batteries about every 7 years.* 4

To help with replacement costs, vehicle manufactures are coming up with affordable battery replacement plans. Check with your car dealership for details.

4. Source – _Other Vehicle Cost Factors_ on website http://myelectriccar.com.au/calculator/


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Warren Buffett, perhaps the worlds largest owner of insurance companies, Says driverless vehicles and advanced autonomous safety features are a threat to his vehicle insurance business and will drive down premiums over time.
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla is also working with insurance companies to give Tesla owners premiums that are cheaper than average, as the recognise the decreased number of accidents.





And we should trust an insurance guy on that, why? 

All smart insurers insure things that hardly ever need a payout. So a smart, driverless, fully automated car with cameras and GPS and all the things an insurer need to not pay you... It should honestly drive down the premium as Buffett says, BUT...

But the costs insurers would have to pay, real or imagined, from non-Smart cars crashing into expensive smart cars. That's a pretty reasonable ground to jack up premiums I'd say.

I don't think Tesla is going to win this EV race though. They seem to be following the Apple model and want all the profit all to themselves. They better learn how to share... that will get the costs down for consumers and get more support from third parties wanting a piece of the action.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1087086_tesla-model-s-maintenance-almost-none-required-actually




That's not true. 

No carmakers, Tesla included, especially Tesla actually, could afford to not make money from repair and/or maintenance. 

In just about all cases, that's the only place where they do make their money, real money.

So while a Tesla/EVs might not need oil change or mechanical gear and oily moving parts, there will be repair and maintenance on the electronics and other smart stuff, like a way too smart car key I saw in some YT videos.

So if you bump into a curb or a pole, with all them cameras and sensors... you're not going to just turn up to a wreckers and find yourself a spare one. You can't just fit it on at your local repair shop.. .and that's if Tesla permit you to do it without voiding any guarantee.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (21 November 2017)

I've never needed my android phone maintained or serviced luutzu.


----------



## luutzu (22 November 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I've never needed my android phone maintained or serviced luutzu.




That's because you don't drive them 

Probably covered them in a hard plastic case too. 

Can't do the same with a car.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> I would prefer not having to charge often. We are conditioned to around 500km per tank of guzzolene. Yes the cost for range could be a telling factor keeping the average at 500 km per charge just like the ICE's.  Musk is setting the benchmarks and has shown 1000km is possible but only for those who can afford it. Battery life and thus having to replace it at a cost isn't mentioned much.  From Ergon here in Australia, my bold  ...
> 
> *Battery life expectancy*
> 
> ...



You won't worry about charging often when it's just a matter of plugging it in at home.

Also I don't think replacement batteries will be a thing, the batteries will out last the car, the early tesla's have proved to be really well engineered, and they have since had chemistry improvements, and if your car is going to be built in a year from now it will Be better than the batteries being installed today.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> And we should trust an insurance guy on that, why?
> 
> All smart insurers insure things that hardly ever need a payout. So a smart, driverless, fully automated car with cameras and GPS and all the things an insurer need to not pay you... It should honestly drive down the premium as Buffett says, BUT...
> 
> ...



Teslas auto pilot can also reduce the number of times other cars crash into you. 

But if you know anything about auto insurance, you would know that as a whole the industry operates at about break even, so a reduction in claims being paid out over time would very quickly cause insurance premiums to drop due to competition.


----------



## luutzu (22 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Teslas auto pilot can also reduce the number of times other cars crash into you.
> 
> But if you know anything about auto insurance, you would know that as a whole the industry operates at about break even, so a reduction in claims being paid out over time would very quickly cause insurance premiums to drop due to competition.




How? You're not going to tell me it has a force field or transform into bumble bee are you?

Seriously though, Tesla does look and sound very impressive. If I have the cash, it'd be in my carport already   Since I don't, this is (possibly) what sour grapes look like.

I remember reading Buffett on insurance... pretty sure he said insurance is profitable beyond the investment powress from its float. And I can see that once or twice when I was at fault and have to pay $800 "excess" to claim insurance on a bumper. Not sure how a bumper costs something plus $800 on top, but there it was, no profit for the insurer at all.


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also I don't think replacement batteries will be a thing, the batteries will out last the car, the early tesla's have proved to be really well engineered, and they have since had chemistry improvements, and if your car is going to be built in a year from now it will Be better than the batteries being installed today.



Of course all would prefer longer than 7 year battery life and assume battery life and recycling will improve as competition for consumer rises. At the beginning of this transition so around Tesla Model 5 should be getting closer to (my preferenced) ideal.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Of course all would prefer longer than 7 year battery life and assume battery life and recycling will improve as competition for consumer rises. At the beginning of this transition so around Tesla Model 5 should be getting closer to (my preferenced) ideal.




It's not an issue you should even worry about today, battery life will be about 80% after 1 million Km's.

It's really discussing engine life in a petrol car, is not something worth talking about for an average user.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...e-80-percent-capacity-840km-1-million-km/amp/


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> How? You're not going to tell me it has a force field or transform into bumble bee are you?
> 
> Seriously though, Tesla does look and sound very impressive. If I have the cash, it'd be in my carport already   Since I don't, this is (possibly) what sour grapes look like.
> 
> I remember reading Buffett on insurance... pretty sure he said insurance is profitable beyond the investment powress from its float. And I can see that once or twice when I was at fault and have to pay $800 "excess" to claim insurance on a bumper. Not sure how a bumper costs something plus $800 on top, but there it was, no profit for the insurer at all.




I will upload a video later showing tesla autopilot avoiding being hit by other cars.

In a lot of cases insurance is only profitable because of investment returns on float.

Most insurance companies use 100% or more of the premiums collected paying out claims, and if claims reduce premiums would reduce due to competition, 

Companies like Berkshire want to hold float, they don't mind having an insurance operation that breaks even if it means they can hold billions in float.

So if they can reduce prices to help secure an extra $1 billion in float they will.

Berkshire also has insurance contracts that are guaranteed to be loss making, but due to the long time frames should make investment profits on the float, e.g. They collect $100 million today, but will have to pay out $150 Million over 20 years to asbestos victims and widows.

They work out exactly what the breakeven mark or loss will be on a contract and then price the contract competitively, in a world with less car crashes insurance companies will compete the price down.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> How? You're not going to tell me it has a force field or transform into bumble bee are you?





Here is a video with multiple examples of teslas avoiding being hit by other vehicles.


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2017)

Come on Value Collector, you must have a Tesla franchise.
How do I place an order.


----------



## luutzu (1 February 2018)

What the... tail I get to play with people's billions; head I get to own 10% of all that their billions bring in.

*Breakingviews - Hadas: Tesla’s $60 billion mistake on pay*

LONDON (Reuters Breakingviews) - Sometimes companies need chief executives who are visionary geniuses. Sometimes more mundane skills are required. Tesla’s plan to hand Elon Musk as much as $60 billion in stock over 10 years shows the electric-car maker is confused about what sort of boss is appropriate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...eslas-60-billion-mistake-on-pay-idUSKBN1FK2B2


----------



## Value Collector (1 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> What the... tail I get to play with people's billions; head I get to own 10% of all that their billions bring in.
> 
> *Breakingviews - Hadas: Tesla’s $60 billion mistake on pay*
> 
> ...




If the below is achieved, I think Tesla share holders would be very happy.



> However, for Musk to reach his lucrative milestones Tesla has to become the opposite of a startup. To collect the incentive scheme’s last 1 percent of the shares, the company must reach about the same size and achieve roughly the same level of profitability as General Motors, currently the most successful U.S. car company. That’s a real stretch.


----------



## luutzu (1 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> If the below is achieved, I think Tesla share holders would be very happy.




Yea, they'd be happy with the success. But I know I wouldn't be happy giving 10% of my company away though.

I mean if Musk is a real genius and the success of the company relies on mostly his hardwork and brain power... sure he deserve it, and then some.

But if shareholders are putting in billions after billions, it then beg the quesiton of whether or not any eventual success is due to Musk or due to the weight of them billions at work. 

I honestly do not know of many actual geniuses being so reliant on this scale of capital expense/investment, and still have yet to return a profit. 

I realise it's a game changer and factories and infrastructures needs to be built etc., but the real genius lies somewhere in using small amount of capital, a small team of dreamers etc. to change the world.

To have billions to start off... even an idiot like me could make some noise with it. Musk being a bigger genius, alright, a proper genius, still... 10% of the company?


----------



## Value Collector (1 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yea, they'd be happy with the success. But I know I wouldn't be happy giving 10% of my company away though.
> 
> I mean if Musk is a real genius and the success of the company relies on mostly his hardwork and brain power... sure he deserve it, and then some.
> 
> ...




I recommend you read that book, 



> To have billions to start off... even an idiot like me could make some noise with it. Musk being a bigger genius, alright, a proper genius, still... 10% of the company?




He started with nothing, what are you talking about?


----------



## CanOz (1 February 2018)

I like to think of Musk along the lines of Bezos' achievement with Amazon...there are allot of similarities in the burn cash concept. Its disruptive, there is huge demand for the vehicles so large it cannot be fulfilled for many years. Its a race to meet demand whilst not running out of cash...


----------



## luutzu (1 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I recommend you read that book,




Why would I want to read propaganda? 



Value Collector said:


> He started with nothing, what are you talking about?




It's the fact that he started with nothing, then might end up with 10% of a $600Billion company that's the problem. 

Alright, I know what you mean. He did good, gave the world PayPal... a place you can do eCommerce and get gouge   Serious, my brother has a PayPal account and their fees make a typical bank's look like charity.


----------



## Junior (2 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Why would I want to read propaganda?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's not propaganda.  It's a detailed, well researched biography of the man's life.  It is very critical of him at times.  If you read it, you'll see his work ethic, intelligence and his achievements to date are very impressive.


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Why would I want to read propaganda?




It was actually written by a guy who thought a lot like you at the start of the project, and musk originally wasn't going to help.


> It's the fact that he started with nothing, then might end up with 10% of a $600Billion company that's the problem.




why is that a problem?



> Alright, I know what you mean. He did good, gave the world PayPal... a place you can do eCommerce and get gouge   Serious, my brother has a PayPal account and their fees make a typical bank's look like charity.




there is also a good chapter about pay pal, it would be a very different company if it stayed in musks hands.


----------



## luutzu (2 February 2018)

Junior said:


> It's not propaganda.  It's a detailed, well researched biography of the man's life.  It is very critical of him at times.  If you read it, you'll see his work ethic, intelligence and his achievements to date are very impressive.




Thanks. Will listen to the audio book.

http://v1x0r.com/free-books/elon_musk/


----------



## luutzu (2 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It was actually written by a guy who thought a lot like you at the start of the project, and musk originally wasn't going to help.
> 
> 
> why is that a problem?
> ...




It's a problem if shareholders see themselves as owner of the company. And a problem if they see themselves as investor rather than Venture Capitalist. 

In fact, it's also a problem if they're venture capitalist because while those sharks give the owner 10% or more of the company, they only buy a majority stake in a very decent business selling for next to nothing because its entrepreneurs only know their product and yet to know high finance.

But yes, I will read/listen to the book. Then I can dissect Musk's genius to its marketing hype. 

That Tesla supercharger bet still on right?


----------



## Value Collector (3 February 2018)

> It's a problem if shareholders see themselves as owner of the company.




Why, that would mean their shares are worth 12 times more than they are today.





luutzu said:


> That Tesla supercharger bet still on right?




Absolutely.

I drove to Coffs Harbour on the weekend, went passed 4 super charging locations.

they just opened a new one in Coffs Harbour with 6 charging bays.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2018)

Years of work have paid off with the "Falcon Heavy" having a successful launch today, sending a payload into orbit around the sun following Mars.

Very good video, well worth the watch,


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2018)

Credit where credit is due, he talks the talk, but he certainly walks the walk.


----------



## CanOz (28 September 2018)

Looks like the SEC finally caught up with Musk....

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219


----------



## So_Cynical (28 September 2018)

CanOz said:


> Looks like the SEC finally caught up with Musk....
> 
> https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219




Disgraceful, picking on Elon for tweeting..like the SEC hasn't got better hings to do.


----------



## Wysiwyg (29 September 2018)

Didn't Elon Musk contribute to the book, The Subtle Art of not giving a F.


----------



## leyy (2 October 2018)

Yes it is absolute bull**** the SEC can go get f***ed.

If you haven't seen it already do yourself a favour and watch the whole interview with Joe Rogan.

A thought-provoking interview with Musk about our future of tomorrow, Make sure you watch from start to finish the interview went for 2 hours and 37 minutes, I enjoyed every part of the interview, it really has to be one of the best interviews of Musk. You don't have to agree with everything he says but it gives you a view of Elon’s world where he is always challenging the status quo with real innovation and disruptive business models. To have the time to run several multi-billion dollar corporations and have so much passion and care for humanity, our world and future. This is living proof that Elon Musk is a legend and the much needed superhero our world needs.


----------



## Junior (3 October 2018)

leyy said:


> Yes it is absolute bull**** the SEC can go get f***ed.
> 
> If you haven't seen it already do yourself a favour and watch the whole interview with Joe Rogan.
> 
> A thought-provoking interview with Musk about our future of tomorrow, Make sure you watch from start to finish the interview went for 2 hours and 37 minutes, I enjoyed every part of the interview, it really has to be one of the best interviews of Musk. You don't have to agree with everything he says but it gives you a view of Elon’s world where he is always challenging the status quo with real innovation and disruptive business models. To have the time to run several multi-billion dollar corporations and have so much passion and care for humanity, our world and future. This is living proof that Elon Musk is a legend and the much needed superhero our world needs.





I really enjoyed this podcast.

It is very sad that the media latched onto the 20 seconds where he had one puff of Joe's joint.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2019)




----------



## orr (29 January 2020)

For those interested a long (2.16Hrs) sit down chat with Mr Musk and Mr Musk(about halfway) and a small group people with deep intrest up on you-tube.. search 'the third row Elon Musk' ... maybe a few surprises for those that take the time.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Elon states that aliens built the pyramids:



https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...claimed-they-were-built-by-aliens/ar-BB17tNYz


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Elon is so entertaining. More of celebrity than anything else. Here is another beauty:


*"Elon Musk Challenges Johnny Depp To A Cage Fight"*
*The ongoing libel case between Johnny Depp and ex-wife Amber Heard has provided some rather disturbing insights, painting a frankly horrifying picture of a toxic relationship. The latter defecating on the former’s pillow purely out of spite, the former having his finger sliced off during a fit of rage… and now, Depp’s legal team is claiming Heard once engaged in a threesome with ex-husband Elon Musk and Cara Delevigne while they were still married. There are apparently even texts sent by Depp himself threatening to slice off the billionaire CEO’s penis.*


*Now usually, we wouldn’t engage with such low-brow tabloid fodder. But in the past few days, a rather intriguing development has occurred vis-a-vis Elon Musk and Johnny Depp. While Musk maintains no such infidelity transpired, this messy slice of drama has caused some friction. Honours besmirched. Good names sullied. Nerves flicked, if you will. It’s all gotten pretty medieval. To the point where Musk publicly issued a “challenge”*

*https://www.bosshunting.com.au/sport/elon-musk-johnny-depp-cage-fight/*


----------



## noirua (18 December 2020)




----------



## noirua (12 January 2021)




----------



## noirua (3 February 2021)




----------



## noirua (14 May 2021)




----------



## noirua (15 May 2021)

Elon Musk Conveniently Ignored Bitcoin's Inconvenient Truth​13 May 2021




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## noirua (13 July 2021)

__





						Elon Musk says he 'hates' running Tesla as he defends $2.6bn SolarCity deal in court
					





					www.msn.com
				



Tesla billionaire Elon Musk has taken to the witness stand to defend Tesla’s $2.6bn (£1.9bn) acquisition of a solar power company in which he was a major investor.





__





						‘I think you are a bad human being’: Elon Musk hits out at lawyer while defending Tesla in court
					





					www.msn.com
				



Elon Musk called a lawyer a “bad human being” as he appeared in court to defend Tesla in a lawsuit over his company’s 2016 purchase of SolarCity.


----------



## noirua (13 July 2021)

2016
 2019


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2021)

The Babylon Bee interviews Elon. Non satirical btw, just a sit down and discussing things. Pretty interesting.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 December 2021)

Person of the Year


----------



## qldfrog (23 December 2021)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Person of the Year



Especially as i own SYR just up 31% today after signing contract with Tesla
Now i got it, Elon is Santa


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 December 2021)

And some mildly amusing but unvisited clickbait.


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Babylon Bee interviews Elon. Non satirical btw, just a sit down and discussing things. Pretty interesting.




Thanks @wayneL , I invite fellow ASF  members to watch, obviously a few boring points but found this very interesting..I think Elon is a functioning light Asperger type, which I like for the absence of BS. A very interesting and frank interview, also like his telling how a solar plant makes more energy from the ground surface of a nuclear power plant + exclusion zone..would temperate that with the fact many reactors are usually piled up in the same plant but overall quite a good point.
So back to the issue of power storage ..and IMHO, lithium is NOT the answer.
Anyway, a good watch for Christmas but not for the leftist woke


----------



## Dona Ferentes (24 December 2021)

I watched the whole hour and a half. He made many points, most of them pertinent and deeply thought through. An interesting forum to talk on, and the BB guys are getting a lot of publicity. I am trying to get my son to take in the whole podcast; he is stuck in the "_cult of Elon_" thing, which I can accept as being valid but not the full bloke.

Lithium  may not be the (full) answer but the described pathway involved batteries. Somewhere, somehow.


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2021)

Dona Ferentes said:


> I watched the whole hour and a half. He made many points, most of them pertinent and deeply thought through. An interesting forum to talk on, and the BB guys are getting a lot of publicity. I am trying to get my son to take in the whole podcast; he is stuck in the "_cult of Elon_" thing, which I can accept as being valid but not the full bloke.
> 
> Lithium  may not be the (full) answer but the described pathway involved batteries. Somewhere, somehow.



Yes it somehow changed my view, and i have followed him for a while, read the biography,etc but i learnt much watching that video


----------



## noirua (6 March 2022)

Elon Musk calls for increase in US oil, gas production to combat Russia despite negative effect on Tesla
					

Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk called on the United States to increase its domestic oil output in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine while also acknowledging that his electric car company would be negatively affected by that move.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## jamieredhands (6 March 2022)

galumay said:


> As in a mythical creature from the past?
> 
> Or as in turns water into wine?
> 
> I certainly think he is a false messiah, sooner or later the market will realise there is very little substance to the hype. Tesla is basically dead in the water, its not a car manufacturer by any meaningful definition.



Well... didn't he prove you wrong.
But hey, a lot of very intelligent people thought the same as you so no fret.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 April 2022)

Elon Musk seems to get away with a few things that mere mortals do not.
The SEC hit him with a damp lettuce over tweets regarding taking Tesla private,  then did nothing when he ignored the requirements of said lettuce slapping.
From Zero Hedge
Just recently, he tweeted to his many followers asking them if they thought it would be a good idea to buy into Twitter.
Gave the twitter price a shakeup for which he might have been asked a few questions by the SEC.
Then he goes and  buys a 14.9% stake in Twitter.
This sent the Twitter employees who actually run the company into a Frenzy, as some of his views are considered "extreme".
The Board of Twitter offered him a seat on the board, given his holdings, which he seemed to think was a good idea.
He has now decided against taking up the board offer.
Perhaps one of the reasons for his decision not to take it up, is that by law, a member of a US company board cannot own more than 15% of a company on which they sit.
So by declining, he is now free to go beyond his initial stake.
This could get interesting.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (12 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Elon Musk seems to get away with a few things that mere mortals do not.
> The SEC hit him with a damp lettuce over tweets regarding taking Tesla private,  then did nothing when he ignored the requirements of said lettuce slapping.
> From Zero Hedge
> Just recently, he tweeted to his many followers asking them if they thought it would be a good idea to buy into Twitter.
> ...



I need to make a correction to the above.
1. He only bought a 9.2% stake in twitter.
2.The 14.9% limit was a board limit, not one that is  a legal USA wide limit.
I misread the original article.
Notwithstanding that,  the shares of twitter , having been falling from a high of 80 bucks  early in 2021 to 35 bucks just recently, have taken a jump to 47 bucks last night. So shareholders should thank him greatly.
His refusal to accept the board nomination, allows him to buy more  or sell his shares without having the SEC type timing restrictions placed on him. It also bypasses the limit of 15% that the board position would have forced on him.
And to top it off, it removes restrictions on what he can about the board, its management, or the company as a whole.
I would think that employees and  board members of twitter will be a touch uneasy.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I need to make a correction to the above.
> 1. He only bought a 9.2% stake in twitter.
> 2.The 14.9% limit was a board limit, not one that is  a legal USA wide limit.
> I misread the original article.
> ...



Seems he has made an offer. I wonder if he is just doing his bitcoin trick of pumping, then quietly dumping his stock.

Can get rich (or go broke) following this guys tweets. If he starts mentioning something on his twitter- buy it for the pump.


----------



## moXJO (26 April 2022)

Let the memes flow...


----------



## bluekelah (26 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Seems he has made an offer. I wonder if he is just doing his bitcoin trick of pumping, then quietly dumping his stock.
> 
> Can get rich (or go broke) following this guys tweets. If he starts mentioning something on his twitter- buy it for the pump.



His trick may have backfired, the deal apparently is done at 44billion. Good price to exit for those who had rode it up to 70billion and then down to 35billion and missed the top. Would probably have gone even lower now that fed is tightening more.

Elon did pledge his shares in Tesla to finance the deal, so do wonder if he could ever get margin called should Tesla's share price ever sink  again as financial conditions tighten. Of course he will have twitter now as his propaganda platform to hype and pump whatever he wishes from now on.


----------



## moXJO (26 April 2022)

bluekelah said:


> His trick may have backfired, the deal apparently is done at 44billion. Good price to exit for those who had rode it up to 70billion and then down to 35billion and missed the top. Would probably have gone even lower now that fed is tightening more.
> 
> Elon did pledge his shares in Tesla to finance the deal, so do wonder if he could ever get margin called should Tesla's share price ever sink  again as financial conditions tighten. Of course he will have twitter now as his propaganda platform to hype and pump whatever he wishes from now on.



Go long on dogecoin!


----------



## 3 hound (26 April 2022)

galumay said:


> Tesla is basically dead in the water, its not a car manufacturer by any meaningful definition.




This didn't age well.


----------



## divs4ever (26 April 2022)

a l-o-n-g way to go before EVs dominate the  the auto world , will Tesla remain a major player  against veteran corporations


----------



## 3 hound (26 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> a l-o-n-g way to go before EVs dominate the  the auto world , will Tesla remain a major player  against veteran corporations



Maybe so.  but hardly "dead in the water".


----------



## divs4ever (26 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Maybe so.  but hardly "dead in the water".



( imo ) currently it is anybody's race  , including non-lithium based batteries  , and ICEs can be made to run on high percentages of ethanol  ( over 50% ) and diesels fully on vegetable oils 

 however treachery and experience , often overcomes  youth and enthusiasm  , and a rival like Volkswagen  have a LOT of experience ( and some other skills as well )


----------



## Value Collector (26 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> a l-o-n-g way to go before EVs dominate the  the auto world , will Tesla remain a major player  against veteran corporations



Did Apple remain dominate against the veteran mobile phone companies like Nokia and Motorola?

Cars have longer lives than phones so the process of change over will take longer, but it’s happening.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (26 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Elon Musk seems to get away with a few things that mere mortals do not.




coded  by Elon Musk when he was 9 year old; this video game was sold to a magazine for $500
 still available  to play



			Blastar for HTML5: a web version of Elon Musk's 1984 video game


----------



## 3 hound (26 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> however treachery and experience , often overcomes youth and enthusiasm , and a rival like Volkswagen have a LOT of experience ( and some other skills as well )




Volkswagen have treachery and experience on spades.

They went from being the manufacturer of evil incarnate the third Reich to the manufacturer and iconic symbol of the Boomer peace, love and drug generation with am emissions scandal thrown in as a free bonus.

That is pure magic right before our eyes, they are genius.


----------



## divs4ever (26 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Volkswagen have treachery and experience on spades.
> 
> They went from being the manufacturer of evil incarnate the third Reich to the manufacturer and iconic symbol of the Boomer peace, love and drug generation with am emissions scandal thrown in as a free bonus.
> 
> That is pure magic right before our eyes, they are genius.



and acquirer of several prestigious brands  , they may very well master the EV universe as well


----------



## 3 hound (26 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> and acquirer of several prestigious brands  , they may very well master the EV universe as well



No need, they already masters of the universe evidently.

Every, marketing, communication, economics, politics and finance graduate should be forced to study them to try learn how they pulled this off.


----------



## bluekelah (27 April 2022)

divs4ever said:


> and acquirer of several prestigious brands  , they may very well master the EV universe as well



Well not long now, Volkswagen is catching up quickly. I believe very soon they will recapture back some  market share from the more premium market as well. Plus they have PHEVs (another popular fast growing segment) Making EVs is not rocket science, most major car makers will be able to easily modify or add on capacity to existing factories. I believe once the rate rises kick in and easy money goes away, we will see Tesla valuations become more in line with other car makers. It is not possible for Tesla to become the next "APPLE", as Apple is purely software company that commissions chinese factories to build all their hardware. EV car making is already becoming a crowded segment and Tesla will likely see margins get compressed pretty soon.​
Volkswagen Threatens Tesla's Throne in Electric Vehicles​







						Volkswagen Threatens Tesla's Throne in Electric Vehicles - TheStreet
					

The german automaker was the leading manufacturer of EVs in Europe.




					www.thestreet.com
				


[While the Tesla Model 3 was the best-selling electric car in Europe in 2021, Volkswagen was the leading manufacturer of electric vehicles.]​
The ID.4 Leads The Volkswagen Group’s EV Sales That Are Up 65% In Q1 2022​








						The ID.4 Leads The Volkswagen Group's EV Sales That Are Up 65% In Q1 2022 | Carscoops
					

VW sold 99,100 electric vehicles through its many brands in the first three months of 2022




					www.carscoops.com


----------



## Value Collector (27 April 2022)

bluekelah said:


> Well not long now, Volkswagen is catching up quickly. I believe very soon they will recapture back some  market share from the more premium market as well. Plus they have PHEVs (another popular fast growing segment) Making EVs is not rocket science, most major car makers will be able to easily modify or add on capacity to existing factories. I believe once the rate rises kick in and easy money goes away, we will see Tesla valuations become more in line with other car makers. It is not possible for Tesla to become the next "APPLE", as Apple is purely software company that commissions chinese factories to build all their hardware. EV car making is already becoming a crowded segment and Tesla will likely see margins get compressed pretty soon.​
> Volkswagen Threatens Tesla's Throne in Electric Vehicles​
> 
> 
> ...



I am sure people thought the same about Nokia.


----------



## Trader X (27 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am sure people thought the same about Nokia.



Bit of a false equivalence to compare the decline of Nokia to all other auto manufacturers vs Tesla. Tesla will no doubt be the EV market sales leader for some time to come but their market share will continue to decline over time.  In this sense, there are likely to be some similarities between Apple iPhone sales history and Tesla EVs.  iPhone global market share by shipments varies by quarter between 10-20% now but as a premium brand is very profitable.  Will Tesla EVs be considered in the same league as EVs from Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Toyota Lexus etc. as a premium brand that commands a premium price?  Maybe, time will tell but it will be a huge challenge as the technology gap closes quickly due to massive global investment by the majors in all aspects of EV tech.


----------



## divs4ever (27 April 2022)

ummm  i have seen some analysis that Apple has hit a flat spot  as well 

 since Musk  has some history with coding and part-way through the Twitter acquisition  one might wonder what path would Twitter take , ( bolt on an app. store perhaps or maybe a digital market place )

 i am guessing he didn't buy it so he could troll others unimpeded ( that has just been a happy consequence )


----------



## Value Collector (27 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> Bit of a false equivalence to compare the decline of Nokia to all other auto manufacturers vs Tesla. Tesla will no doubt be the EV market sales leader for some time to come but their market share will continue to decline over time.  In this sense, there are likely to be some similarities between Apple iPhone sales history and Tesla EVs.  iPhone global market share by shipments varies by quarter between 10-20% now but as a premium brand is very profitable.  Will Tesla EVs be considered in the same league as EVs from Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Toyota Lexus etc. as a premium brand that commands a premium price?  Maybe, time will tell but it will be a huge challenge as the technology gap closes quickly due to massive global investment by the majors in all aspects of EV tech.



What is Nokias market share now? What was it before? Why didn’t they make the jump and compete with Apple and Samsung?

Time will tell, but when it comes to Ev’s there is a lot of factors that give Tesla a major advantage eg their charging networks and self driving software just to name two.

I mean will BMW be considered a premium brand if their vehicles can’t drive them selves and it’s hard to find charging locations?

Tesla is well ahead of the other brands when it comes to full self driving, they are years ahead in development, will the others even be able to catch up?


----------



## JohnDe (27 April 2022)

Top 10, look at where VW are - 












						Global Plug-In Electric Car Sales Doubled In February 2022
					

Global passenger plug-in electric car sales doubled year-over-year in February, which is an outstanding result considering all the challenges with parts supply.




					insideevs.com


----------



## JohnDe (27 April 2022)

bluekelah said:


> Well not long now, Volkswagen is catching up quickly. I believe very soon they will recapture back some  market share from the more premium market as well. Plus they have PHEVs (another popular fast growing segment) Making EVs is not rocket science, most major car makers will be able to easily modify or add on capacity to existing factories. I believe once the rate rises kick in and easy money goes away, we will see Tesla valuations become more in line with other car makers. It is not possible for Tesla to become the next "APPLE", as Apple is purely software company that commissions chinese factories to build all their hardware. EV car making is already becoming a crowded segment and Tesla will likely see margins get compressed pretty soon.​
> Volkswagen Threatens Tesla's Throne in​[While the Tesla Model 3 was the best-selling electric car in Europe in 2021, Volkswagen was the leading manufacturer of electric vehicles.]​
> The ID.4 Leads The Volkswagen Group’s EV Sales That Are Up 65% In Q1 2022​




65% of what?


----------



## bluekelah (28 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What is Nokias market share now? What was it before? Why didn’t they make the jump and compete with Apple and Samsung?
> 
> Time will tell, but when it comes to Ev’s there is a lot of factors that give Tesla a major advantage eg their charging networks and self driving software just to name two.
> 
> ...



Despite years of touting full self driving capabilities and charging some customers for the "FSD" add on, Tesla is still stuck at Level 2 Automous which they will probably be stuck for a while with a history of so many crashes.








						Why Is Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Only Level 2 Autonomous?
					

The beta of Tesla’s Full Self Driving isn’t exactly the completely autonomous driving we were promised, and never will be according to recently revealed emails. Have early adopters been fooled?




					www.forbes.com
				




Its always fun to watch the footage of the Tesla fireballs and accidents:
Watch: Tesla In Autopilot Crashes Into North Carolina Police Vehicle​
Tesla Model S Plaid reportedly catches fire in Pennsylvania​

More recently massive recall... 
[The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has issued a recall notice for 53,822 Tesla vehicles with the FSD Beta software as it may allow vehicles to roll through an all-way stop intersection.]








						US authority issues recall for Tesla's rolling stop feature
					

Tesla has agreed to remove the controversial 'rolling stop' feature from its Full Self-Driving Beta after meeting with a US government agency.




					www.carexpert.com.au
				




Charging stations are not that big a differentiating factor as most EV adopters are using the EVs in mostly urban scenarios, not cross country runs. In time there will likely be more charging stations for other brands as we are seeing now in many urban centers that are seeing increased EV adoption.

Market share wise lets look at the biggest EV market China first, this is the 2021 sales record with BYD outselling Tesla by about 50%:









						2021 EV deliveries in China by the numbers: How some of the market's major players grew
					

A breakdown of 2021 EV deliveries from some of the growing and best known automakers currently developing vehicles in China.




					electrek.co
				






Second largest market Europe, VW Group getting 25% of market sales vs 13.9% of Tesla, which has seen their market leading percentage of 31.1%in 2019 shrink down, perhaps it can fight back with gigafactory Berlin. :








						2021 (Full Year) Europe: Best-Selling Electric Car Models and Brands - Car Sales Statistics
					

In 2021, Tesla and Volkswagen were the best-selling electric car brands in Europe with the Model 3, Renault Zoe, and ID.3 the top-selling models.




					www.best-selling-cars.com
				






And lets look at globally including north american sales, Tesla still has that 14%, which granted has changed much since 2019 where it had 16% of global market share:








						Competition Heats Up For Tesla In EV Market
					

Tesla and Volkswagen are the leading EV producers. China has the largest EV market. What other companies are vying for market share? Read to learn more.




					www.forbes.com
				



[Global EV Market Share
Tesla leads all others, selling slightly over 936,000 units in 2021. This gave the company a market share of nearly 14%. Close behind Tesla was the VW Group, with just over 11% of the market last year. Chinese-based BYD was third (9%); followed by GM (7.6%); Stellantis, an Amsterdam-based company (6%); Hyundai Motor (5%); and BMW Group (4.8%). Mercedes and Toyota were in the top 12. Ford was noticeably absent.]

Going forward the EV sector is likely to grow more globally. However I believe with FORD/RIVIAN with their EV trucks and every other major car maker jumping onto the EV bandwagon, I believe the EV space will get increasingly even more crowded with the bigger players. We can expect more competition and with that likely some level of margin compression at Tesla, or they may maintain margins but lose market share.

Valuation wise, without tech bubble and all the autonomous driving hype, I believe Tesla valuation should come back down to probably PE of 25-30.


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2022)

bluekelah said:


> Despite years of touting full self driving capabilities and charging some customers for the "FSD" add on, Tesla is still stuck at Level 2 Automous which they will probably be stuck for a while with a history of so many crashes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wouldn’t call it stuck, There is constant improvements, I have had my car for nearly 3 years and it’s self driving features have been steadily improving, as have the full self driving mode which has been rolling out to more and more customers as part of testing.

But that’s the point isn’t it, Tesla is years ahead of BMW and the rest that haven’t even started yet.

Do you own an EV, I guess not, because I can tell you charging stations are a huge factor when it comes to long distance driving and are essential for a car to be considered premium.


----------



## Trader X (28 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla is years ahead of BMW and the rest that haven’t even started yet.



This assumes that each automaker needs to develop their own FSD tech from scratch to compete with Tesla.  Instead they can license this tech from other companies who have developed self-driving solutions like NVIDIA.  Given this, it's probably a moot point to declare Tesla is years ahead of others in this respect and therefore has a huge competitive advantage over other EV makers.  Remains to be seen what percentage of EV owners will embrace FSD and be willing to pay a premium for it.


----------



## JohnDe (28 April 2022)

> Tesla’s full-self driving is more than vaporware—and it’s one reason Tesla stock is worth more than three times that of Toyota.
> 
> Beta testers are, essentially, Tesla owners who have earned the latest version of the software by having the right combination of cars and driving safety scores, along with a desire to test the system.
> 
> ...












						Tesla's 'Full Self Driving' Is Getting Better. Why That's Good for the Stock.
					

We took a ride in a full self-driving Tesla Thursday and came away impressed.



					www.barrons.com


----------



## JohnDe (28 April 2022)

> Analysts at Morgan Stanley have said that in the long-term, Tesla Insurance may pose a threat to the ~$260 billion US auto insurance industry, following the company’s expansion of its new insurance product that uses real-time driving behaviour data.
> 
> Tesla will no doubt have superior data on their own cars, but also addressed that the real-time feedback loop on driving behaviour, that the insurance offering contains, could result in safer driving, which could lead to lower premiums and a higher take-up rate.
> 
> ...












						Tesla Insurance could pose long-term threat to US auto insurance industry: Morgan Stanley - Reinsurance News
					

Analysts at Morgan Stanley have said that in the long-term, Tesla Insurance may pose a threat to the ~$260 billion US auto insurance industry, following




					www.reinsurancene.ws


----------



## divs4ever (28 April 2022)

bluekelah said:


> Despite years of touting full self driving capabilities and charging some customers for the "FSD" add on, Tesla is still stuck at Level 2 Automous which they will probably be stuck for a while with a history of so many crashes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 ummm since the flaming one  was mostly likely an ELECTRICAL fire .. why were they using water NOT foam ??

 just asking

  they may as well just slipped down the convenience store and bought marshmallows and popcorn


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> This assumes that each automaker needs to develop their own FSD tech from scratch to compete with Tesla.  Instead they can license this tech from other companies who have developed self-driving solutions like NVIDIA.  Given this, it's probably a moot point to declare Tesla is years ahead of others in this respect and therefore has a huge competitive advantage over other EV makers.  Remains to be seen what percentage of EV owners will embrace FSD and be willing to pay a premium for it.



You should have been on the board of directors for Nokia and Motorola, you could have let them know that all they had to do to keep up with Apple and Samsung was License a few bits of tech and they will be back on top again.


----------



## Trader X (28 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You should have been on the board of directors for Nokia and Motorola, you could have let them know that all they had to do to keep up with Apple and Samsung was License a few bits of tech and they will be back on top again.



Yet another false analogy and emotive jibe.  For the record, I actually like Tesla EV product now, the build quality has improved and the designs appealing if not the price and unknown future depreciation.  I don't own an EV and unlikely to until the price becomes more competitive with ICE and hybrid cars.  When I do enter the market for an EV my choice won't be based on brand allegiance, desire to reduce my carbon footprint, Elon's reputation or if I can fall asleep until my car arrives at the desired location with 100% safety assured.  Assessment of value, reliability, customer satisfaction and other factors at the time will determine my purchase decision and that may even end up being a used Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> Yet another false analogy and emotive jibe.  For the record, I actually like Tesla EV product now, the build quality has improved and the designs appealing if not the price and unknown future depreciation.  I don't own an EV and unlikely to until the price becomes more competitive with ICE and hybrid cars.  When I do enter the market for an EV my choice won't be based on brand allegiance, desire to reduce my carbon footprint, Elon's reputation or if I can fall asleep until my car arrives at the desired location with 100% safety assured.  Assessment of value, reliability, customer satisfaction and other factors at the time will determine my purchase decision and that may even end up being a used Tesla.



I don’t have any brand allegiance either, I would be interested to look at the Apple car if that becomes a thing when it’s time to replace the Tesla.

But out of all those things you suggested you care about, Tesla is currently the top dog.

When it comes to self driving, having drive. Sydney to Brisbane multiple times on self drive the whole way, I can tell you it makes road trips a lot more enjoyable, but I understand you Experience I the subject is pretty much Nil, so we will just have to wait until you have some Experience with ev’s before we can take your word for what matters and what doesn’t to ev owners.


----------



## Trader X (28 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> But out of all those things you suggested you care about, Tesla is currently the top dog.



Certainly not customer satisfaction based on surveys, although improving, and it's unknown how Tesla EVs will compare value and feature wise with the tidal wave of new EVs to hit the market over the next 5 years.  

Auto pilot still requires you to be alert and ready to take control right?  When I use radar cruise control on the highway, I have lane departure warning and correction, collision avoidance and EBS but have to hold onto the wheel and be alert.  So not much effort required to cruise on the highway for me either.


----------



## JohnDe (28 April 2022)

> Tesla Tops Consumer Reports 2022 Owner Satisfaction Ratings​Tesla wound up on top of the charts,












						Tesla Tops Consumer Reports 2022 Owner Satisfaction Ratings — But Mustang Mach-E Top EV - The Detroit Bureau
					

Tesla ranks tops in owner satisfaction, despite its below average reliability rating. Tesla’s win underscores that reliability doesn’t necessarily bring owner happiness. Other factors affect how much you’ll love your car. TheDetroitBureau,com has an in-depth look at the numbers.




					www.thedetroitbureau.com


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> Certainly not customer satisfaction based on surveys, although improving, and it's unknown how Tesla EVs will compare value and feature wise with the tidal wave of new EVs to hit the market over the next 5 years.
> 
> Auto pilot still requires you to be alert and ready to take control right?  When I use radar cruise control on the highway, I have lane departure warning and correction, collision avoidance and EBS but have to hold onto the wheel and be alert.  So not much effort required to cruise on the highway for me either.



The auto pilot as it stands now in Australia will drive along the freeway, over take slower cars, change lanes as needed to navigate, and merge off the freeway, stop at red lights and stop signs.

You have to rest your hand on the wheel (or your knee if you like) and be ready to take control if needed, but it will drive from my freeway on ramp in Brisbane, through the Gold Coast and all the way to Ballina (that’s about 3.5hours)where it will merge off the freeway where I usually stop for my first 10min charge/pee break without any intervention from me.

So it’s a lot different to your lane departure warning and collision avoidance.


----------



## Trader X (28 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So it’s a lot different to your lane departure warning and collision avoidance.



No doubt less driving attention and intervention required.  But then, for let's say ~$30,000 extra, you would expect more refinement in the driving experience.  The much lower cost of ownership of an EV will be very compelling as the entry level price comes down, the main attraction of an EV to me.  Unfortunately, it seems we are still many years away from approaching price parity with top end ICE and hybrid cars in comparable size categories.  Would I rather drive a Model Y than a turbo CX-5 Akera?  Sure, but not for an extra $30k.


----------



## Value Collector (28 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> No doubt less driving attention and intervention required.  But then, for let's say ~$30,000 extra, you would expect more refinement in the driving experience.  The much lower cost of ownership of an EV will be very compelling as the entry level price comes down, the main attraction of an EV to me.  Unfortunately, it seems we are still many years away from approaching price parity with top end ICE and hybrid cars in comparable size categories.  Would I rather drive a Model Y than a turbo CX-5 Akera?  Sure, but not for an extra $30k.



The car will save you more than $30k over its life and have a higher scrap value at the end due to the battery, so we probably shouldn’t expect price parity.

It’s a bit like LED light bulbs are about 8 times more expensive than the old original incandescent bulbs, but they last 20 times longer and use 4 times less electricity, so it’s worth it.

When you factor in all the perks of a Tesla, plus the savings in fuel and maintenance, then paying a bit extra is worth it, and waiting for perfect price parity would probably be a mistake.


----------



## JohnDe (28 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> No doubt less driving attention and intervention required.  But then, for let's say ~$30,000 extra, you would expect more refinement in the driving experience.  The much lower cost of ownership of an EV will be very compelling as the entry level price comes down, the main attraction of an EV to me.  Unfortunately, it seems we are still many years away from approaching price parity with top end ICE and hybrid cars in comparable size categories.  Would I rather drive a Model Y than a turbo CX-5 Akera?  Sure, but not for an extra $30k.


----------



## Trader X (29 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> View attachment 141019
> 
> View attachment 141020



Non optioned entry level model, false comparison.


----------



## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> Non optioned entry level model, false comparison.




List the features & compare


----------



## Trader X (29 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> List the features & compare



I did and the features don't compare as expected since the Model Y shown is the entry level model.  It's a moot point anyway as I would never spend $70k+ on a depreciating liability like a car, EV or ICE.


----------



## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> I did and the features don't compare as expected since the Model Y shown is the entry level model.  It's a moot point anyway as I would never spend $70k+ on a depreciating liability like a car, EV or ICE.




What features are you talking about? The only things I can see that your Turbo CX-5 has that the Tesla doesn't is a turbo engine and a transmission. Plus it is outdated before you even buy it,  Japan has canceled Turbo engine production for the CX-5.









						Model Y | Tesla
					

Model Y is a fully electric, mid-size SUV with unparalleled protection and versatile cargo space.




					www.tesla.com


----------



## CityIndex (29 April 2022)

Reports are suggesting that Elon Musk has sold Tesla shares, but he also just tweeted that "no further Tesla sales planned after today".

All trading carries risk, but it should be interesting to see how TSLA reacts when US markets re-open as the stock has been hovering below its 200-day MA for the last two days.


----------



## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

> *Tesla’s stock (TSLA) takes a beating amidst confusion over Twitter acquisition – is Elon selling?*
> 
> Tesla’s stock (TSLA) is currently taking a beating and losing over $150 billion in value amidst the confusion around Elon Musk’s Twitter(TWTR) acquisition. The main question on investors’ minds is: is Elon Musk selling Tesla stocks?












						Tesla's stock (TSLA) takes a beating amidst confusion over Twitter acquisition – is Elon selling?
					

Tesla’s stock (TSLA) is currently taking a beating and losing over $150 billion in value amidst the confusion around Elon Musk’s Twitter(TWTR) acquisition. The main question on investors’ minds is: is Elon Musk selling Tesla stocks? After a few weeks of back and forth, Twitter’s board of...




					electrek.co


----------



## Trader X (29 April 2022)

CityIndex said:


> All trading carries risk, but it should be interesting to see how TSLA reacts when US markets re-open as the stock has been hovering below its 200-day MA for the last two days.



As it stands now...
Market Summary
Tesla Inc
877.51 USD−4.00 (0.45%)today
Closed: 28 Apr, 7:59 pm GMT-4
*After hours 854.50 −23.01 (2.62%)*


----------



## CityIndex (29 April 2022)

Trader X said:


> As it stands now...
> Market Summary
> Tesla Inc
> 877.51 USD−4.00 (0.45%)today
> ...



The after hours decline of over 2% seems to have been a part of the broader market selling stemming from disappointing earnings reports after the bell. 

With the news of Elon Musk selling breaking so late in the day in the US, the real reaction might only kick-in once pre-market trading starts up in a few hours.


----------



## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

> *Elon Musk Offloads $4 Billion of Tesla Shares, Pledges No More Sales*
> 
> Tesla co-founder tweets he doesn’t plan to sell any more stock
> Musk has to cover a $21 billion equity portion of transaction
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (6 May 2022)

Nine years ago -


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2022)

Trader X said:


> I did and the features don't compare as expected since the Model Y shown is the entry level model.  It's a moot point anyway as I would never spend $70k+ on a depreciating liability like a car, EV or ICE.



How much would you spend on a car?


----------



## JohnDe (6 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How much would you spend on a car?




I doubt that you will get an answer. I'm still waiting for him to list the difference in features of the two models he mentioned.



Trader X said:


> ... the features don't compare as expected since the Model Y shown is the entry level model.  It's a moot point anyway as I would never spend $70k+ on a depreciating liability like a car, EV or ICE.






JohnDe said:


> What features are you talking about? The only things I can see that your Turbo CX-5 has that the Tesla doesn't is a turbo engine and a transmission. Plus it is outdated before you even buy it,  Japan has canceled Turbo engine production for the CX-5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Trader X (6 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How much would you spend on a car?



A: That depends on an assessment of future depreciation, make and model of a used car.  I don't buy new, that's for those who like instant gratification and don't mind the financial impact of buying a rapidly depreciating liability.  EV depreciation dynamics will of course change as sales volumes increase and new entrants flood the market over the next few years.  At the moment I am not in the market for a used EV since the cost savings would never recover the price difference with ICE cars for my use case and future depreciation is unclear.  If I was in the market for a used EV, it would be an SUV similar to the Model Y but only after it's rate of depreciation is known.  Likely then to be 2-3 years old but prior to warranty expiry.  However, I expect the depreciation of EV sedans to follow the same trajectory as the ICE sedans so something like a used Model 3 could be more attractive in terms of depreciation.


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2022)

Trader X said:


> A: That depends on an assessment of future depreciation, make and model of a used car.  I don't buy new, that's for those who like instant gratification and don't mind the financial impact of buying a rapidly depreciating liability.  EV depreciation dynamics will of course change as sales volumes increase and new entrants flood the market over the next few years.  At the moment I am not in the market for a used EV since the cost savings would never recover the price difference with ICE cars for my use case and future depreciation is unclear.  If I was in the market for a used EV, it would be an SUV similar to the Model Y but only after it's rate of depreciation is known.  Likely then to be 2-3 years old but prior to warranty expiry.  However, I expect the depreciation of EV sedans to follow the same trajectory as the ICE sedans so something like a used Model 3 could be more attractive in terms of depreciation.



So how much would you be willing to spend on a used car?

What makes you think that the cost savings of EV’s won’t recoup the difference in price between an EV and Ice?


I used to be the same, I never bought new cars either, In fact before I purchased the Tesla I had only ever bought 1 car which was a second hand VT commodore that I kept for 17 years and it was 5 years old when I bought it.

But, eventually you have to enjoy the finer things, I mean you don’t want to be waiting for your old age before sex, same with spending.


----------



## Trader X (6 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So how much would you be willing to spend on a used car?



Nothing at the moment, but an upper limit would likely be $50k for a 3yr old EV.



Value Collector said:


> What makes you think that the cost savings of EV’s won’t recoup the difference in price between an EV and Ice?



Is that a serious question with used Model 3s advertising in the range of $80K to over $100k on Carsales?  Given how little driving I actually do these days, the operating cost savings of an EV would never come close to cost difference recovery.



Value Collector said:


> But, eventually you have to enjoy the finer things, I mean you don’t want to be waiting for your old age before sex, same with spending.



LOL, we all have different perceptions of what constitutes the finer things in life.  For me that's vacationing in exotic locations and maybe even some real sex on the beach.  Somehow, sitting in a shiny new Tesla cruising on bitumen watching the trucks roll by or stuck in traffic just does not compare.


----------



## wayneL (6 May 2022)

"How much would you spend on a car?"

It's actually a pretty interesting question. The most money I've spent on any car ever was $29,000 for an E-Type Jaguar back in the 80s. I sold it for exactly the same amount and am still kicking myself I did that.

In recent years the most I've spent is $25,000 for a 2003 land Rover defender 90 Xtreme. That was back early 2020 and I have been offered 50k for it since. Mrs decision and she was absolutely right about that.

As far as EVs, the economics don't add up for me, don't I may at some stage do something completely ridiculous like put an electric motor in a 62 Volkswagen Beetle that'll pull 6 seconds on the quarter mile... Just to see people's expressions LMAO


----------



## JohnDe (6 May 2022)

Trader X said:


> Is that a serious question with used Model 3s advertising in the range of $80K to over $100k on Carsales?  Given how little driving I actually do these days, the operating cost savings of an EV would never come close to cost recovery.




Yes, used Tesla prices are crazy. There are owners asking $80,000 for a M3 standard range, when you can order a new one for Drive Away $68,883. What's driving up the used price is buyers not willing to wait the current 9 - 12 months. 

Tesla can't keep up with demand (the Hybrid RAV4 has the same wait period), but people need a car and more are not willing to buy an ICE.


----------



## Value Collector (6 May 2022)

Trader X said:


> Nothing at the moment, but an upper limit would likely be $50k for a 3yr old EV.
> 
> 
> Is that a serious question with used Model 3s advertising in the range of $80K to over $100k on Carsales?  Given how little driving I actually do these days, the operating cost savings of an EV would never come close to cost difference recovery.
> ...



Well the oldest Australian model 3’s turn 3 years old in September, so there is probably not enough data to make assumptions about what their used vehicle prices will be, especially because of the shortage, but if you are saying that a 3 year old model 3 sells for the same price it did new 3 years ago, then they are performing better than ice cars that’s for sure.

Well, I definitely enjoy vacationing as well I generally spend 2-3 months of the year over seas, did Florida and Hawaii this year already, will be in UK in Oct, and back to the USA in December, then back to the USA for Berkshire meeting may 2023, will try and squeeze NZ in there some where when it opens too, and a few trips around australia. but there is limits to the amount of time I want to spend away from my cat, and if I do have to sit traffic during the other 9 months of the year, then sitting in a self driving Tesla is definately better than my old commodore hahaha.

When it comes to an EV recouping it’s costs, if I keep my Tesla as long as I kept my old commodore, it would save me about $70,000 in fuel and maintenance, even more as inflation pushes up the price of fuel and maintenance over time.

Not to mention saving days worth of time at petrol stations.


----------



## Trader X (6 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla can't keep up with demand (the Hybrid RAV4 has the same wait period), but people need a car and more are not willing to buy an ICE.



True across the board for EV makers in general.  I note that BYD powers on in China and launching the Atto 3 for sub-$50k in Australia.  Used Model 3 prices will adjust eventually with the depreciation likely quite savage.  The hefty price one must pay for early adoption and the novelty of owning an EV so early in the product cycle.


----------



## noirua (13 May 2022)

Elon Musk says Twitter deal is 'on hold'
					

Twitter shares are taking a hit after Elon Musk said in a tweet that his $44 billion acquisition is temporarily on hold.




					www.foxbusiness.com
				



Elon Musk tweets that $44 billion agreement to buy Twitter has hit a snag over number of fake accounts​


----------



## wayneL (13 May 2022)

noirua said:


> Elon Musk says Twitter deal is 'on hold'
> 
> 
> Twitter shares are taking a hit after Elon Musk said in a tweet that his $44 billion acquisition is temporarily on hold.
> ...



Hahaha the plot thickens.

A discount coming up?


----------



## noirua (16 May 2022)

Twitter CEO expects Elon Musk acquisition to close, addresses spending cuts
					

Twitter CEO Parag Agrawal responded to Elon Musk's surprise tweet, saying he expected Musk’s $44 billion acquisition of the social medial company to close in 2022.




					www.foxbusiness.com
				




Quite a lot of the accounts are held by those of people who have died.  Three I know for sure and maybe several more.


----------



## noirua (19 May 2022)

Billionaire Elon Musk fired off yet another tweet Tuesday potentially sabotaging his $44 billion bid to buy Twitter_. _His scorched-earth campaign may also be sabotaging Twitter itself.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/05/18/twitter-musk-takeover-chaos/


----------



## Trader X (19 May 2022)

noirua said:


> Billionaire Elon Musk fired off yet another tweet Tuesday potentially sabotaging his $44 billion bid to buy Twitter_. _His scorched-earth campaign may also be sabotaging Twitter itself.



Whatever Musk's true motives were in offering $54.20/share for Twitter, I doubt taking a multi-billion dollar loss factored into his calculations and projections.


----------



## divs4ever (19 May 2022)

Trader X said:


> Whatever Musk's true motives were in offering $54.20/share for Twitter, I doubt taking a multi-billion dollar loss factored into his calculations and projections.
> 
> View attachment 141899



well there used to be a tactic deployed by some corporate raiders   of buying a stake 'discovering anomalies ' and then buying the rest at a big discount ( or from the administrators ) , now whether Musk stumbled on this strategy after buying the stake , or had it planned before hand  is up to personal speculations  

 maybe Musk needed to 'break ' Twitter to rebuild it ( especially if he needs an employee purge )


----------



## mullokintyre (2 June 2022)

Elon has really upset the twittersphere with his latest missive.
FromZero Hedge


> As some companies try and delicately walk the line between returning to the office and offering "work from home" benefits to their employees in a post-Covid world, Elon Musk has taken a stance without quite as much nuance.
> 
> “Anyone who wishes to do remote work must be in the office for a minimum (and I mean *minimum*) of 40 hours per week or depart Tesla," Musk wrote in a company email that was leaked this week.
> 
> ...



Gotta love that last line.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (2 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Elon has really upset the twittersphere with his latest missive.
> FromZero Hedge
> 
> Gotta love that last line.
> Mick




The news this morning was talking about workers that work from home are putting in more hours and are at risk or mental health issues, which opens up a new set of problems for employers, health care, governments and insurers.

I can't find the Australian report that I hear this morning but this on from the US is pretty much the same - 

Almost half of working people are at risk of job burnout, and people working from home are more likely to feel this way, as almost one in ten are burning out


----------



## JohnDe (2 June 2022)




----------



## Trader X (2 June 2022)

Little surprise that a billionaire workaholic expects everyone else in his company be willing to make similar sacrifices and share the same work ethic.  The minimum 40 hour edict is a clear hint that the minimum expected is closer to 50 hours (paid only for 40hrs of course).  No doubt many put in even longer hours.  His enormous ego shines through with the assertion that only his particular model of wage slavery produces great new products.  Americans are lazy sloths and shamefully want to work from home, model yourselves on our Chinese factory workers (they live to work) he bellows (very inspiring). Money motivates but Musk and types like him are very unpleasant to work for or with.  Live to work, make the required personal sacrifices for our amoral company and the money we pay you or your fired!  Been there, forever done with that.


----------



## JohnDe (2 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Little surprise that a billionaire workaholic expects everyone else in his company be willing to make similar sacrifices and share the same work ethic.  The minimum 40 hour edict is a clear hint that the minimum expected is closer to 50 hours (paid only for 40hrs of course).  No doubt many put in even longer hours.  His enormous ego shines through with the assertion that only his particular model of wage slavery produces great new products.  Americans are lazy sloths and shamefully want to work from home, model yourselves on our Chinese factory workers (they live to work) he bellows (very inspiring). Money motivates but Musk and types like him are very unpleasant to work for or with.  Live to work, make the required personal sacrifices for our amoral company and the money we pay you or your fired!  Been there, forever done with that.




What is the pay rate at Tesla?


----------



## Value Collector (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Little surprise that a billionaire workaholic expects everyone else in his company be willing to make similar sacrifices and share the same work ethic.  The minimum 40 hour edict is a clear hint that the minimum expected is closer to 50 hours (paid only for 40hrs of course).  No doubt many put in even longer hours.  His enormous ego shines through with the assertion that only his particular model of wage slavery produces great new products.  Americans are lazy sloths and shamefully want to work from home, model yourselves on our Chinese factory workers (they live to work) he bellows (very inspiring). Money motivates but Musk and types like him are very unpleasant to work for or with.  Live to work, make the required personal sacrifices for our amoral company and the money we pay you or your fired!  Been there, forever done with that.



I read it as being that you can work from home, but you are still required to be in the office for 40 hours, eg working at home wasn’t a substitute for coming into the office.

I don’t think he is talking about the base level workers, they would already be coming in, because you can’t build a car from home.

But he is probably talking about those up the food chain a bit that aren’t being paid by the hour anyway.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 June 2022)

It really is not a difficult concept. 

Elon Musk is the employer. 

End. 

gg


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I read it as being that you can work from home, but you are still required to be in the office for 40 hours, eg working at home wasn’t a substitute for coming into the office.



Since when, before C19, Zoom, Teams and Slack?  Other than workers assembling cars or those who specifically need to use devices or tech that's only available in the office would you actually need to be on premises.  As an IT worker, there is NOTHING I can't do from home that requires office attendance.  Well, there is the $3500 espresso machine so yes I can make better coffee there while enjoying all the noise and disturbances around me.  Ever heard of digital nomads Elon?  I read it as Elon throwing a hissy fit walking the giga factory floors after 3 hours of sleep in his office the night before and staring into the empty offices and cubicles of staff working from home, enjoying a good night's sleep and spending time with family (something he can't relate to).  He can't see what you're doing or crack the whip so he's an untrusting and frustrated micromanager.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Since when, before C19, Zoom, Teams and Slack?  Other than workers assembling cars or those who specifically need to use devices or tech that's only available in the office would you actually need to be on premises.  As an IT worker, there is NOTHING I can't do from home that requires office attendance.  Well, there is the $3500 espresso machine so yes I can make better coffee there while enjoying all the noise and disturbances around me.  Ever heard of digital nomads Elon?  I read it as Elon throwing a hissy fit walking the giga factory floors after 3 hours of sleep in his office the night before and staring into the empty offices and cubicles of staff working from home.  He can't see what you're doing or crack the whip so he's an untrusting and frustrated micromanager.




What has your business designed, developed and manufactured?


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It really is not a difficult concept.
> 
> Elon Musk is the employer.
> 
> ...




Exactly. Especially when there is a high demand for workers, there are plenty of jobs at the moment. Anyone not happy with their current employment should go and find another.





*US$ -*


----------



## Value Collector (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Since when, before C19, Zoom, Teams and Slack?  Other than workers assembling cars or those who specifically need to use devices or tech that's only available in the office would you actually need to be on premises.  As an IT worker, there is NOTHING I can't do from home that requires office attendance.  Well, there is the $3500 espresso machine so yes I can make better coffee there while enjoying all the noise and disturbances around me.  Ever heard of digital nomads Elon?  I read it as Elon throwing a hissy fit walking the giga factory floors after 3 hours of sleep in his office the night before and staring into the empty offices and cubicles of staff working from home, enjoying a good night's sleep and spending time with family (something he can't relate to).  He can't see what you're doing or crack the whip so he's an untrusting and frustrated micromanager.



Since the boss of the company says that’s they way he wants things done, is there really any other reason needed?

The is a lot to be said about being on site and working with your team directly, I recently booked a holiday in store with a travel agent, the whole thing was done in about 25 mins, my mother who is refuses to go into the store the talk directly is on day 5 of phone calls and emails trying to organise an almost exact holiday.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The is a lot to be said about being on site and working with your team directly



I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities.  Face to face, in person meetings and activities do matter in certain professions and situations no doubt, sales and manufacturing in particular.

I do of course realize that Elon is the subject of hero worship and many idolize him for being a visionary in the EV space. For them, Elon is a tech god to be revered so they become advocates and apologists for everything he says and does.  While I acknowledge his visionary genius, presentation and marketing skills, it's the engineers and technicians that design and innovate at companies like Tesla that are the heroes to me.  They deliver the vision on Elon's whiteboard sketches.

The directive to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment.  The "great resignation" is happening in large part due to the attitudes of managers like Musk toward remote work. No doubt many have and will leave Tesla for this very reason.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities.  Face to face, in person meetings and activities do matter in certain professions and situations no doubt, sales and manufacturing in particular.
> 
> I do of course realize that Elon is the subject of hero worship and many idolize him for being a visionary in the EV space. For them, Elon is a tech god to be revered so they become advocates and apologists for every he says and does.  While I acknowledge his visionary genius, presentation and marketing skills, it's the engineers and technicians that design and innovate at companies like Tesla that are the heroes to me.  They deliver the vision on Elon's whiteboard sketches.
> 
> The directive to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment.  The "great resignation" is happening in large part due to the attitudes of managers like Musk toward remote work. No doubt many have and will leave Tesla for this very reason.




And what industry are you and your team in?


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> And what industry are you and your team in?



SME business software solutions, design and engineering.


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> SME business software solutions, design and engineering.



Not to hijack the thread, but do you enjoy your job or is it boring and a grind?

Know a kid interested in a similar field.

Also:
Elon is a social dipsht.
Probably just p1ssed he spent all that money on offices and decking them out when he could have just run it remote.
Not to mention the fact it would be hard for a control freak not to be able to crack the whip and have his plebs kiss his ar5e.

In saying that. Working from home can stretch the bonds of job loyalty of workers. To a point they become apathetic when receiving negative criticism of lazy work. Makes it easier for them to walk out. 

Good management is about strengthening that bond to the workplace and create habits that anchor you and your loyalty there.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> SME business software solutions, design and engineering.




Sounds exactly like the type of work that can easily be done over zoom and away from an office. Whereas working in a company developing something that was thought of as 'too far ahead of its time' and ensuring its survivability, while its much larger competitors try to catch up and stop your company by any means possible, well this company has to work more efficiently and with staff that are committed to the same goals. To ensure that happens, employees get compensated by high wages and benefits, stock discounts and the feeling that every member is equally important. The girl working on the factory floor shows up everyday, just like the guy in charge of factory human relations and the team involved with designing door handles, window switches. And so.

If Elon Musk sees an issue on the floor of the factory or the engineering plant or any of the many offices, it is his responsibility to sort it out and ensure the viability and longevity of TESLA.

Any abuse of workers rights is intolerable, and the workers have every right to call it out. The USA automotive worker is not shy to call strikes, even for the mundane.

Employees that feel that they are working more than they are being compensated for can easily leave and find work in another industry. Due to the shortage of workers there is currently pay rises across the US.

Tesla is currently one of the profitable vehicle manufacturers in the world. This doesn't happen by accident. Have a look at the debt ratios of all the manufacturers, have a think about how many may not be operating in the next 5 or 10 years and how many jobs will be lost. GM has been shrinking for the past 10+ years, they have pulled out of most countries. Ford are just keeping their head above water by selling a large Ute (F Series).

Just because you and your team can work from home does not mean that a large developing and ground breaking company can. Besides, why should the suits be able to work from the comfort of their home and get paid much higher than the people that build your tools? Sounds a bit like Animal Farm.

Lead by example, not by words.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but do you enjoy your job or is it boring and a grind?



There are some boring aspects, documentation is particular, but it's quite technically challenging and everchanging. You can never really be complacent about your skillset, ongoing learning and skill development is required to keep pace with rapidly evolving tech and toolsets.  Lots of time spent at the keyboard so important to stay active out of hours.


----------



## divs4ever (3 June 2022)

i was thinking of the commotion that memo would make at Twitter


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> If Elon Musk sees an issue on the floor of the factory or the engineering plant or any of the many offices, it is his responsibility to sort it out and ensure the viability and longevity of TESLA.



It's only his "responsibility" if Elon is a micro manager (pretending to be a CEO) who does not trust his managers on the factory floor to do their job.  Is he going to floor walk his giga factory in Fremont, then fly to China the next day to do the same?  TESLA is a team effort, not a one man show.



JohnDe said:


> Just because you and your team can work from home does not mean that a large developing and ground breaking company can. Besides, why should the suits be able to work from the comfort of their home and get paid much higher than the people that build your tools? Sound a bit like Animal Farm.




Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments.  I reiterate, the directive by Musk to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment.  If you have ever worked in such a sweat shop culture you would know how unpleasant it is to work for a micromanaging control freak on an ego driven power trip.

Literally thousands of "ground breaking companies" allow or even now prefer remote working for certain roles to save money and provide an improved work/life balance.  An example of that "animal farm" you're referring to would be working 40+ hours as a factory floor worker at Tesla.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (3 June 2022)

I'm a great believer in the concept of _the Water Cooler,_ where informal contact allows ideas to flourish.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> It's only his "responsibility" if Elon is a micro manager (pretending to be a CEO) who does not trust his managers on the factory floor to do their job.  Is he going to floor walk his giga factory in Fremont, then fly to China the next day to do the same?  TESLA is a team effort, not a one man show.




If Tesla had failed or was failing I could understand your point of view. However, since Elon Musk was one of the founding members of Tesla and showed the world that EVs can be sold successfully and at competitive prices to comparable ICEV, I'll take your comments as misinformed. 

Elon Musk was walking the floor when Tesla's firs EV, the Roadster, was struggling to assembled. He was their when the Model S was being built and then the MX a M3 and MY, each one a proven success. And yes, with a team and a team leader.



Trader X said:


> Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments.




Excuse me, are you for real? You've been, and still are, commenting on a company that you "know nothing about". And you tell me that I'm in no position to comment on your company? Wow.




Trader X said:


> I reiterate, the directive by Musk to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment.  If you have ever worked in such a sweat shop culture you would know how unpleasant it is to work for a micromanaging control freak on an ego driven power trip.




Hahaha, their you go again. Did you forget your previous comment? "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."  You know nothing about me, an you presume that you do.

No, it is not just about " all of his workers being their most productive", it's also about building a team environment, showing some form of equality between employees, getting the maximum inventiveness from all, being at the right place at the right time when a lightbulb moment happens, and so on.



Trader X said:


> Literally thousands of "ground breaking companies" allow or even now prefer remote working for certain roles to save money and provide an improved work/life balance.




I'm sure there are a few. Apple is one, but even they have recently changed their rules about working from home, they are also struggling to come up with new and ground breaking products.

Post a list of these "ground breaking companies" that you mention. the ones that are changing the world by manufacturing something that improves the world.



Trader X said:


> An example of that "animal farm" you're referring to would be a factory floor worker at Tesla.




I'm wondering whether you read the book, or watched the cartoon. It was the pigs that convinced the workers that they were being hard done by and to rebel, and then the pigs became the unseen, the ones that got paid the highest and worked in the comfort of their homes while the rest toiled outside.


----------



## Value Collector (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities.  Face to face, in person meetings and activities do matter in certain professions and situations no doubt, sales and manufacturing in particular.
> 
> I do of course realize that Elon is the subject of hero worship and many idolize him for being a visionary in the EV space. For them, Elon is a tech god to be revered so they become advocates and apologists for everything he says and does.  While I acknowledge his visionary genius, presentation and marketing skills, it's the engineers and technicians that design and innovate at companies like Tesla that are the heroes to me.  They deliver the vision on Elon's whiteboard sketches.
> 
> The directive to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment.  The "great resignation" is happening in large part due to the attitudes of managers like Musk toward remote work. No doubt many have and will leave Tesla for this very reason.



If you boss is happy for you to work that way, that’s fine.

But if Elon feels the company will be more productive with the designers, engineers etc being in the physical office then that’s his call, he is either right or wrong and the company will either prosper or suffer, I have no idea why this is news worthy though.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> I'm a great believer in the concept of _the Water Cooler,_ where informal contact allows ideas to flourish.




Some think that's old fashioned and no longer relevant. I'm with you on his one, face to face interaction brings out the most inventiveness.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> If you boss is happy for you to work that way, that’s fine.
> 
> But if Elon feels the company will be more productive with the designers, engineers etc being in the physical office then that’s his call, he is either right or wrong and the company will either prosper or suffer,* I have no idea why this is news worthy though.*




Chipping away at credibility. It is usually how your competitor, enemies and the jealous types try to bring you down.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> ...since Elon Musk was one of the founding members of Tesla and showed the world that EVs can be sold successfully and at competitive prices to comparable ICEV...



EVs sold at competitive prices?  Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere.  Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.



JohnDe said:


> No, it is not just about " all of his workers being their most productive", it's also about building a team environment, showing some form of equality between employees, getting the maximum inventiveness from all, being at the right place at the right time when a lightbulb moment happens, and so on.



Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.

You frequently demonstrate little objectivity when discussing anything Musk and Tesla. Being a fervent apologist for and advocate of Musk at every turn exposes your extreme bias on this subject. Is there anything Musk does or says that you don't agree with or endorse, does Musk deserve such devotion? Musk doesn't deserve such infallible hero status and unquestioning defense.  He is a fallible human being and awkward pronouncements such as his 40hr edict is an example of this.


----------



## Value Collector (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> EVs sold at competitive prices?  Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere.  Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.
> 
> 
> Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.
> ...



If you look at total cost of ownership, Teslas are way lower cost of ownership than any other ICE car in their classes.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> If you look at total cost of ownership, Teslas are way lower cost of ownership than any other ICE car in their classes.



Does EV TCO recover the price difference with ICE cars over the typical ownership period of a car?  What about EV vs Hybrid TCO comparison and price difference recovery period?  The closer the entry price of EVs get to ICE and Hybrid the more compelling the ownership proposition becomes.  In less than a decade it won't matter anyway because a combination of legislation and the shift to EV only production by many manufacturers will mean that if you want to buy an ICE car it will more likely be a used one.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> EVs sold at competitive prices?  Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere.  Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.




Before there was Tesla, there was the Prius Hybrid and the EV Nissan Leaf (few others not worth mentioning). Both basic cars sold at a premium price. The Leaf had a true range of about 110km.

Then came Tesla, a couple of guys had an idea to improve the environment, one was a battery wizard. They put together a EV and started to show the world, they contacted entrepreneurs to help financially back their enterprise but not many were keen. One was Elon Musk, he like the idea but was concerned about the viability. The dream team worked on his fascination of future tech. Elon was sold and he came, with bigger ideas and a plan to ensure the success of this new venture that included building an affordable EV with a charging network.

Together they put together a team of engineers, designers, software techs and created the Roadster. An expensive EV sports car aimed at people with a lot of disposable income that wanted to help change the world, by purchasing the extremely pricey Roadster to help fund the next project - a more affordable EV. This needed to be done in steps because there was no mass production of the parts required to keep costs down.

The Model S was produced, a high end saloon that was more practical than the Roadster, and at a price equivalent to high end Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac and equivalents.

Sales took off, more money in the bank to help develop the Tesla teams dream - an EV for the masses.

The Model X came next, aimed at the Range Rover driving market. Another success and more dollars in the bank.

And then the Model 3 came out, another step closer to an affordable EV priced to compete against the luxury entry level BMW's and Mercedes. An EV that had enough range that allowed owners to drive into the country side, and a charging network that allowed them to get back home.

There is more to this story, it goes back many years and the correct information is readily available if someone was willing to read with an open mind.





Trader X said:


> Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.




It appears that you don't like to do what you preach "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."

What do you know about the Tesla operations and their work formula?




Trader X said:


> You frequently demonstrate little objectivity when discussing anything Musk and Tesla. Being a fervent apologist for and advocate of Musk at every turn exposes your extreme bias on this subject. Is there anything Musk does or says that you don't agree with or endorse, does Musk deserve such devotion? Musk doesn't deserve such infallible hero status and unquestioning defense.  He is a fallible human being and awkward pronouncements such as his 40hr edict is an example of this.




I do believe in what Musk and Tesla are doing but wouldn't go as far as saying that I'm bias. There was a time when I had no time for Elon Musk, and I thought that Tesla was a con that had sucked in weirdos willing to pay ridiculous amounts for Tesla shares.

A time came when I decided to find out why Tesla prices continued to grow and people kept buying an EV when there were much cheaper ICEVs. I read, I researched, but not just on Elon, I found out about the beginnings of Tesla and its crew.

Elon is no angel, but who is?

Instead of reading news headlines, I suggest that you read more in-depth reports. A easy start is the book *Power Play: Elon Musk, Tesla, and the Bet of the Century*. the author is no Elon fan boy, actually Elon didn't rate it very highly.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What do you know about the Tesla operations and their work formula?



Misdirection, I was responding to your claims about the virtues of the Tesla workplace as you described it.  I don't claim to have inside knowledge of Tesla operations and never have.

Thanks for the historical overview which I was already aware of.  You conveniently exclude the huge role government subsides played, and continue to, in Tesla's success story.  To Elon's credit, he has been very clever in the way he has convinced governments to subsidize his business expansion.



JohnDe said:


> Instead of reading news headlines, I suggest that you read more in-depth reports....



I frequently read in-depth reports on Tesla as an active investor. More so about their energy business since that's where future profit growth is most promising.  I simply don't have an interest in reading books about Elon's adventures.  I will leave that to others who think reading about his life experience can provide useful information or entertainment.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Misdirection, I was responding to your claims about the virtues of the Tesla workplace as you described it.  I don't claim to have inside knowledge of Tesla operations and never have.




If you know nothing about the operations of Tesla, how can you make any comment after  scolding me with the comment  "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."




Trader X said:


> Thanks for the historical overview which I was already aware of.  You conveniently exclude the huge role government subsides played, and continue to, in Tesla's success story.  To Elon's credit, he has been very clever in the way he has convinced governments to subsidize his business expansion.




Do you now? You sound more and more like an account rather than someone that can create a thriving busines against the odds, while industry experts call it a doomed adventure.



Trader X said:


> I frequently read in-depth reports on Tesla as an active investor. More so about their energy business since that's where future profit growth is most promising.  I simply don't have an interest in reading books about Elon's adventures.  I will leave that to others who think reading about his life experience can provide useful information or entertainment.




An open mind is a wonder to behold. The book is not about Elon's adventure, it is more about Tesla's adventure with a sprinkling of its founders.

Tesla would not be here today if it were not for Elon Musk's drive and determination. Without Tesla the EV market would not be taking off like it is at the moment.

'The spirit of envy can destroy; it can never build.'


----------



## Value Collector (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Does EV TCO recover the price difference with ICE cars over the typical ownership period of a car?  What about EV vs Hybrid TCO comparison and price difference recovery period?  The closer the entry price of EVs get to ICE and Hybrid the more compelling the ownership proposition becomes.  In less than a decade it won't matter anyway because a combination of legislation and the shift to EV only production by many manufacturers will mean that if you want to buy an ICE car it will more likely be a used one.



Based on my Math, over the life of my Tesla Model 3, it’s fuel and maintenance costs should be about $70,000 dollars less than running a similar size pure ICE car, so paying an extra few thousand for an EV definitely makes sense.

I haven’t run the numbers on Hybrids, but with a Hybrid you will have lower fuel costs than an ICE, but still higher fuel and maintenance than an EV, So I guess a Hybrid will be some where in the middle of ICE and EV.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> If you know nothing about the operations of Tesla, how can you make any comment



Like I said, I was responding to your comments on the virtues of the Tesla workplace which you either fail to understand or simply ignore to make a moot point.



JohnDe said:


> Do you now?



Yeah I do you condescending smart ar$e.  I use to live in Fremont so have always had an interest in Tesla's evolution.

I don't envy Musk, I respect what he has achieved and wish him and his company continued success.  I am surprised you care at all about other "founders" as you are so enamored with everything Musk, I simply don't idolize him as you do.



JohnDe said:


> Tesla would not be here today if it were not for Elon Musk's drive and determination.



Such an inane observation would apply the thousands of other entrepreneurs.  Just more Elon worship.

Since you have descended into mockery and pejorative phrasing instead of engaging in measured debate, time to move on.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Like I said, I was responding to your comments on the virtues of the Tesla workplace which you either fail to understand or simply ignore to make a moot point.



No you weren't.

You were stating your thoughts on my comment "Sounds exactly like the type of work that can easily be done over zoom and away from an office".

Which came about when Value Collector said: "There is a lot to be said about being on site and working with your team directly" and you answered "I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities."

I just wanted to see how your job experience compared with manufacturing and development. Your answer to me "SME business software solutions, design and engineering" indicated that your industry can easily accommodate working from home.

I actually thought your comment quite rude and a form of deflection - "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."



Trader X said:


> Yeah I do you condescending smart ar$e.  I use to live in Fremont so have always had an interest in Tesla's evolution.




Now your getting nasty and a show off all at once. Does living in a place always make you an expert of the businesses in the area?




Trader X said:


> I don't envy Musk, I respect what he has achieved and wish him and his company continued success.  I am surprised you care at all about other "founders" as you are so enamored with everything Musk, I simply don't idolize him as you do.
> 
> 
> Such an inane observation would apply the thousands of other entrepreneurs.  Just more Elon worship.
> ...




I mock no one, though I do stand up against people that are abusive and like to demean someone for no other reason than a media report and doing their job.

Thanks for the interesting debate, you can now move on with a little more knowledge of Tesla


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Thanks for the interesting debate, you can now move on with a little more knowledge of Tesla



An arrogant assumption, you did not add more to my knowledge of Tesla just badgered me for taking issue with Elon's edict and your continued biased advocacy of everything Tesla.  Interesting debate?  It was a total waste of time and energy trying to debate with a fanboy, thanks for the reminder.


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Some think that's old fashioned and no longer relevant. I'm with you on his one, face to face interaction brings out the most inventiveness.



It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic". 
From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.

However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite. 

The "great resignation" came about when the cycle of turning up to work was broken. People realised how much they hate the grind. Low unemployment gave a lot of choice.

But don't worry bosses. Recession will quickly sort that out.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> An arrogant assumption, you did not add more to my knowledge of Tesla just badgered me for taking issue with Elon's edict and your continued biased advocacy of everything Tesla.  Interesting debate?  It was a total waste of time and energy trying to debate with a fanboy, thanks for the reminder.


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic".
> From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.
> 
> However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite.
> ...




Agreed.

The socialist (or is that communists) are multiplying.


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The socialist (or is that communists) are multiplying.



I'm sure a historian recently said that one reason Rome fell was because they got lazy. Something about "prosperity making them weak".
Sure as hell makes you wonder if we want a repeat.


----------



## Trader X (3 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic".
> From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.
> 
> However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite.
> ...



In the case of the company I work for, (2000+ employees), working from the office is encouraged rather than compelled.  Management is more concerned about delivering results on projects, on schedule than with all seats filled in the new office on any given day.  Where you work to deliver these results is mostly irrelevant to them now.  It's a paradigm shift and such flexible workplace arrangements will be taken into consideration by many job applicants going forward.  I am quite certain that policies on flexible work will have a significant impact on the allocation of commercial office space, driving down costs.

The grind is mostly about the commute and noisy workplace rather than the work itself.  A recession would shift the power balance but the flexible workplace is here to stay.


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> In the case of the company I work for, (2000+ employees), working from the office is encouraged rather than compelled.  Management is more concerned about delivering results on projects, on schedule than with all seats filled in the new office on any given day.  Where you work to deliver these results is mostly irrelevant to them now.  It's a paradigm shift and such flexible workplace arrangements will be taken into consideration by many job applicants going forward.  I am quite certain that policies on flexible work will have a significant impact on the allocation of commercial office space, driving down costs.
> 
> The grind is mostly about the commute and noisy workplace rather than the work itself.  A recession would shift the power balance but the flexible workplace is here to stay.



Be interesting to see where it is in a couple years time. Perhaps they are trying to shift workers into contractor roles. Less rent, less insurance, less disagreement and hr.

People in their homes for the majority of the time will definitely change spending habits.
City lunches will be a thing of the past.


----------



## qldfrog (3 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> Be interesting to see where it is in a couple years time. Perhaps they are trying to shift workers into contractor roles. Less rent, less insurance, less disagreement and hr.
> 
> People in their homes for the majority of the time will definitely change spending habits.
> City lunches will be a thing of the past.



And obviously if you can do your job WFH, so does John from Islamabad or Shannon from Bangkok..for $3 an hour
And i am not talking about new IT nomads here but the complete outsourcing of white collar jobs.
So obvious..


----------



## JohnDe (3 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> I'm sure a historian recently said that one reason Rome fell was because they got lazy. Something about "prosperity making them weak".
> Sure as hell makes you wonder if we want a repeat.




Have a watch of this -


----------



## mullokintyre (4 June 2022)

Last night at our irregular Friday night pub dinner , we were talking about just this very topic.
There was as usual, an eclectic mix of private enterprise, both business owners and employees, as well as public sector employees from various levels.
The general consensus among the  public sector folks was that WHF was a great thing, because of what it provided for the employees.
However, among those in the private sector, there was less enthusiasm.
Their concern was not so much about whether it made employees better off, but the quality of work produced, quite a subtle difference.
Obviously, for those who were or employed tradesman, it was just not feasible.
Same with the guy who owned a contract  ag business, and the one who ran a cartage business.
The professional ones were in agreement that for various reasons, their job was a more comfortable working from home, having to attend less meetings, no travel etc etc.
However, they also said that productivity for them plummeted.
It was not because of the work hours changed, it was the was decision making was interrupted, some sensitive discussions/datapoints  that could not be discussed in an open coms environment, problems with lack of security on private networks or poor comms at the location, lack of privacy when in a home environment (just ask that Carrie  woman about that one).
Another who dealt with a large govt agency found that when she wanted to ring someone,  private numbers were not disclosed, so she had to ring a receptionist (who may or may not have been at home), and then the receptionist would call the person concerned who would,at their leisure, call the originator back. Sometimes that took a number of days, which was extremely frustrating when they were used to being able to call and get someone immediately.
The guy in civil construction complained about zoom team player etc being unable yo provide sufficient detail when trying to get multiple folks looking at large scale drawings,  models etc, or anything that went over multiple pages.
So a variety of responses, mostly dependent on whether you worked for a living in private industry versus got paid in the public sector.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (4 June 2022)

Even as a Self Employed work from home investor I know my own productivity is lower than it would be if I was in an office environment, but I kind of like it that way.

But, if some third party was employing me to work for them, I can see how my Late starts, long lunch’s and early knockoffs would upset them 😂, some times my projects drag out for months, and some times I just don’t do anything for a few weeks.

Right now I sat down to read over some family trust accounting information that I have been putting off for days, but here I am checking in on ASF…. Anyway I better read these docs because I want to break for lunch in 40 mins because me and the wife are half way through watching Star Wars, 😅


----------



## Trader X (4 June 2022)

"_Tesla__ CEO Elon Musk said in an email to all employees at the electric vehicle maker on Friday that the company will cut 10% of salaried workers and will instead rely on more hourly workers."

"Shares of Tesla dipped 9% on Friday by midmorning after Reuters reported on an earlier email Musk had sent to executives about his plans to cut the company’s workforce and expressing a “super bad feeling” about the economy."_

So the order to return to the office 40+ hrs/wk may actually have the ulterior motive of getting staff to resign first and avoid redundancy payments.  The fact that a car company wants workers to return to the factory in their cars may be another reason.  Work from home does not suit a car company's agenda.

_"The co-founder of Australian project management software maker Atlassian Plc, Scott Farquhar, ridiculed the directive in a series of tweets as being "like something out of the 1950s". The US-listed company's "work from anywhere" policy was "key for our continued growth", he said.

"We're setting our sights on growing Atlassian to 25K employees by FY26," Farquhar concluded. "Any Tesla employees interested?"  _

This guy's commentary is spot on...


----------



## JohnDe (4 June 2022)

Smart fella


----------



## JohnDe (4 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Last night at our irregular Friday night pub dinner , we were talking about just this very topic.
> There was as usual, an eclectic mix of private enterprise, both business owners and employees, as well as public sector employees from various levels.
> The general consensus among the  public sector folks was that WHF was a great thing, because of what it provided for the employees.
> However, among those in the private sector, there was less enthusiasm.
> ...




My daughter works for a Commonwealth government department, their policy is that any staff member can apply to work a maximum of 2 days from home, but must complete the appropriate forms.
Another policy is that if anyone in the office tests positive for Covid all close contacts work from home for 7 days.

My daughter hates working from home. She said that it takes longer to get things done, she feels tired while working, finding it difficult to keep her eyes open. Whereas at work there is always interaction with people which makes the day more exciting, it’s easier to discuss projects and issues. At the end of the day she feels more stimulated.


----------



## Trader X (4 June 2022)

Elon's Zorg moment...


----------



## mullokintyre (6 June 2022)

An article in  The Australian


> Melburnians are still choosing to work from home despite Covid restrictions ending, with over 55 per cent in the office for two days or less each week and nearly 70 per cent of CBD businesses not expecting them to return full-time.
> 
> The Victorian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (VCCI) recently did a survey of Melbourne CBD-based offices amid continued concerns over the lack of foot traffic and activity in the city.
> 
> ...



My bolding above.
Mick


----------



## Trader X (6 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> *Concerningly for businesses, 48 per cent of employers said they saw an increase in productivity when employees work from the office, though the remaining 52 per cent noticed no difference.*



This information in itself is very short on detail, is it mostly perception or based on quantifiable metrics and detailed analysis.  If metrics, what metrics were used to measure productivity? What types of job roles are showing this drop in productivity, etc. Without such detail it's unclear that such numbers can be considered an accurate representation WFH productivity rather than a general perception.

In the case of my company, when there is a directive to return to office (coming soon) it will likely be 1 day a week or 2 at most. If there is a measurable drop in productivity then employers have means to deal with such a situation.


----------



## qldfrog (6 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> This information in itself is very short on detail, is it mostly perception or based on quantifiable metrics and detailed analysis.  If metrics, what metrics were used to measure productivity? What types of job roles are showing this drop in productivity, etc. Without such detail it's unclear that such numbers can be considered an accurate representation WFH productivity rather than a general perception.
> 
> In the case of my company, when there is a directive to return to office (coming soon) it will likely be 1 day a week or 2 at most. If there is a measurable drop in productivity then employers have means to deal with such a situation.



WFH opportunities








						A 26-year-old on track to make $200,000 from 2 remote jobs secretly squeezed into 40 hours explains how he gets away with it — and his 'only Great Resignation regret'
					

Fayette Woods works 40 hours a week but gets paid for 60. He thinks more people can follow his lead to combat the rising cost of living.




					www.businessinsider.com
				



I worked from home for fair amount of time while contracting, it is not for everyone and yes you have wankers who do play computer games instead of being wankers in the office.
But the real issue which is not discussed if the BS jobs.
Many of corporate jobs are actually fully useless, useless part of processes, or even full useless processes.
Even if the individuals involved do sctually work hard on these tasks, they do not help the bottom line in any way 
So surprise, surprise, even if no one move a finger while 'wfh' the end result is unchanged.
The next step is obviously to move tgese remote jobs in the Philippines before closing them altogether and just have universal income.
But enjoy and squeeze the system as much as you can ..while you can.


----------



## Trader X (6 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I worked from home for fair amount of time while contracting, it is not for everyone and yes you have wankers who do play computer games instead of being wankers in the office.
> But the real issue which is not discussed if the BS jobs.
> Many of corporate jobs are actually fully useless, useless part of processes, or even full useless processes.
> Even if the individuals involved do sctually work hard on these tasks, they do not help the bottom line in any way
> ...



On the guy doing WFH for 2 employers at the same time, not only is that deceitful but most companies would require you to disclose this information even if the time periods of work did not overlap.  He risks being terminated pulling this off.

As to the offshore competition, that has been a reality for some time now.  During my short stint with IBM 10yrs ago, they had commenced offshoring all tech roles to India.  The tsunami will hit when the immigration floodgates are reopened and 457 visa rorting recommences. This I believe will again tip the power balance heavily in favor of employers and suppress wage growth. There will be less WFH opportunity no doubt but how much of a reduction remains to be seen.


----------



## noirua (7 June 2022)

In this motivational, inspirational, and emotional video, we will hear from Elon Musk himself, as he talks about going against all odds and proving everyone wrong. This video talks about his early days when he started Tesla and SpaceX, his failures, taking risks, and much more. Musk persevered and beat all the odds despite a lot of people going against him. Musk also talks about the future where he wants humanity to be expanded and to be a spacefaring civilization and to be out there among the stars. Go against the odds and reach your dreams!


----------



## JohnDe (7 June 2022)

Bill Gates' billion dollar bet against Tesla​


----------



## noirua (10 June 2022)




----------



## JohnDe (10 June 2022)

Twitter has given him what he wants - 



> *Twitter to provide Elon Musk with spam bot data to seal $61 billion deal, reports claim*
> 
> Twitter is prepared to give in to Elon Musk's latest demand and supply the billionaire with data on "spam bots", after he threatened to walk away from buying the social media business if it refused.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (10 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> "_Tesla__ CEO Elon Musk said in an email to all employees at the electric vehicle maker on Friday that the company will cut 10% of salaried workers and will instead rely on more hourly workers."
> 
> "Shares of Tesla dipped 9% on Friday by midmorning after Reuters reported on an earlier email Musk had sent to executives about his plans to cut the company’s workforce and expressing a “super bad feeling” about the economy."_
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (22 June 2022)

Musk's daughter doesn't want anything to do with him anymore.









						Elon Musk: Billionaire's daughter cuts ties with her father
					

The tech billionaire's 18-year-old daughter has applied to legally change her name and gender.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## JohnDe (22 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Musk's daughter doesn't want anything to do with him anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And? 

Don't leave us hanging, what are your thoughts after reading the article and taking the time to share it.


----------



## Trader X (22 June 2022)

Actually that commentary by Electric Viking is biased spin in the main, trying to shame MSM for reporting "exactly" what Musk said which he was forced to clarify.  Nobody was intentionally duped by the media reporting on Musk's careless communication.  This guy is just trying to put lipstick on a pig, cutting staff is not a good news story and trying to spin it into one is biased fanboy misdirection.

_"To: Everybody
Subject: Headcount Reduction
Date: Friday, June 3, 2022

Tesla will be reducing salaried headcount by 10% as we have become overstaffed in many areas. Note this does not apply to anyone actually building cars, battery packs or installing solar. Hourly headcount will increase.

Elon"_

Elon Musk clarifies Tesla will lay off 3.5% of total workforce as ex-employees sue company​
_Musk said Tesla will reduce its salaried workforce by 10% in the next three months, while also growing the number of hourly employees._
_Layoffs will affect around 3.5% of Tesla’s overall workforce, Musk said, adding the actual amount was “not super material.”_
_Two former Tesla employees sued the company Sunday, alleging it violated U.S. federal laws regarding “mass layoffs.”_

_"On Tuesday Musk said about one third of Tesla employees are salaried, and the 10% cut in that part of the staff would be a "roughly a 3% to 3.5% reduction in total headcount," which he referred to as "*not super material*."  _

I'm guessing the thousands of salaried staff that are losing their jobs think it's super material, what a cold, callous statement.  Hiring more workers offshore is hardly good news for Fremont based salaried staff either.


----------



## JohnDe (22 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Actually that commentary by Electric Viking is biased spin in the main, trying to shame MSM for reporting "exactly" what Musk said which he was forced to clarify.  Nobody was intentionally duped by the media reporting on Musk's careless communication.  This guy is just trying to put lipstick on a pig, cutting staff is not a good news story and trying to spin it into one is biased fanboy misdirection.
> 
> _"To: Everybody
> Subject: Headcount Reduction
> ...




I took it as admittance that he jumped the gun by taking the media reports as 100% accurate. First mistake he made was to believe one report and quickly post a video, without checking multiple sources. He apologised for spreading misinformation.

All successful and growing businesses should have a fluctuating workforce, job titles change and some become obsolete, some staff get promoted while others lose their position for various reasons. 

_Elon Musk confirmed the salaried workforce at Tesla Inc. would be cut by about 10% over the next three months, but said the overall reduction in the electric-car maker’s headcount would only be some 3.5% as hourly staff numbers are still expected to grow._​​_“We grew very fast on the salaried side,” Musk said in an interview with Bloomberg News Editor-in-Chief John Micklethwait at the Qatar Economic Forum on Tuesday. “A year from now, I think our headcount will be higher” in salaried and hourly workers, but for now the reduction will be 3% to 3.5%, he said._​​_The comments brought more clarity to the situation with Tesla’s staffing, after Musk made varied internal and public statements about reductions over the past month._​​







						Elon Musk Says Tesla Job Cuts Will Reduce Workforce by 3.5%
					

(Bloomberg) -- Elon Musk confirmed the salaried workforce at Tesla Inc. would be cut by about 10% over the next three months, but said the overall reduction in the electric-car maker’s headcount would only be some 3.5% as hourly staff numbers are still expected to grow.Most Read from...




					au.finance.yahoo.com


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> My daughter works for a Commonwealth government department, their policy is that any staff member can apply to work a maximum of 2 days from home, but must complete the appropriate forms.
> Another policy is that if anyone in the office tests positive for Covid all close contacts work from home for 7 days.
> 
> My daughter hates working from home. She said that it takes longer to get things done, she feels tired while working, finding it difficult to keep her eyes open. Whereas at work there is always interaction with people which makes the day more exciting, it’s easier to discuss projects and issues. At the end of the day she feels more stimulated.



Yes in a way it is a bit like going to the gym or having a home gym, going to night school or doing a correspondence course from home, a lot of the mental application is about being in the correct environment to get the head in the right space for the task at hand.

It is like when the wife and I go on cruises, she goes to the onboard gym and does two sessions a day of 1 hour power walking on the treadmill with a decent incline. When we are at home she goes for a walk around our suburb.

So she fronts up after a cruise and declares she wants a treadmill and as per usual not just any treadmill a bells and whistles treadmill , well I said they are just an expensive clothes dryer and a waste of money so I we weren't buying one.

Well after buying the said treadmill, it was used about a dozen times, then sold on gumtree for a quarter of the cost and she is back to pounding the pavement.

Long story short, I doubt the productivity in a WFH situation, is as good as the same person being in a work environment.
Just my two cents worth


----------



## noirua (22 June 2022)

Elon Musk says he never told people to invest in crypto. Here's what he has said.
					

Making something sound fun and cool is technically different from telling people to do it.




					mashable.com
				



With the entire cryptocurrency market currently tanking and major crypto firms becoming insolvent, one would think Elon Musk might reflect on some of his recent statements with a little contrition. After all, Musk is a big proponent of cryptocurrency, right?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> And?
> 
> Don't leave us hanging, what are your thoughts after reading the article and taking the time to share it.




My thoughts are that a lot of people are coming out and saying he's a bad boss and it seems members of his family are saying the same.

Is it relevant to his business ? Maybe. If he's a martinet and hard to get on with then people may be less likely to work for him . On the other hand, if he pays enough it probably doesn't matter.


----------



## JohnDe (22 June 2022)

noirua said:


> Elon Musk says he never told people to invest in crypto. Here's what he has said.
> 
> 
> Making something sound fun and cool is technically different from telling people to do it.
> ...




I think you can still make purchases from Tesla.

*How do I buy something from Tesla with Dogecoin?*​To purchase using Dogecoin on the Tesla Shop, you will need a “Dogecoin wallet.”​​




						Dogecoin
					

Purchase eligible Tesla products using Dogecoin on the Tesla Shop.




					www.tesla.com


----------



## JohnDe (22 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> My thoughts are that a lot of people are coming out and saying he's a bad boss and it seems members of his family are saying the same.
> 
> Is it relevant to his business ? Maybe. If he's a martinet and hard to get on with then people may be less likely to work for him . On the other hand, if he pays enough it probably doesn't matter.




There could be many reasons, not all make someone a bad person or a poor manager of business.

I have a friend with an adult child that has disowned him. Both father & son are great people and have no enemies, but money and siblings got in the way.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There could be many reasons, not all make someone a bad person or a poor manager of business.
> 
> I have a friend with an adult child that has disowned him. Both father & son are great people and have no enemies, but money and siblings got in the way.




Yep family relations are sometimes difficult, but his employees are starting to grumble too.

Anyway, he's a clever bloke as long as his ego doesn't get in the way.


----------



## Trader X (24 June 2022)

Elon Musk says he's worried about keeping Tesla out of bankruptcy​_One of Tesla's harshest critics thinks that the company is facing greater financial problems than most analysts realize.
"Bankruptcy is a real risk for these guys," Gordon Johnson of GLJ Research told CNN Business Thursday.

"Why? A lot of their cash is locked up in China. They weren't profitable until they were in China; and, given China does not allow companies to repatriate dollars made there out of the country, and Tesla has a real problem."_


----------



## JohnDe (24 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Elon Musk says he's worried about keeping Tesla out of bankruptcy​_One of Tesla's harshest critics thinks that the company is facing greater financial problems than most analysts realize.
> "Bankruptcy is a real risk for these guys," Gordon Johnson of GLJ Research told CNN Business Thursday.
> 
> "Why? A lot of their cash is locked up in China. They weren't profitable until they were in China; and, given China does not allow companies to repatriate dollars made there out of the country, and Tesla has a real problem."_




*Elon Musk says Tesla was ‘about a month’ from bankruptcy*


----------



## qldfrog (25 June 2022)

Trader X said:


> Elon Musk says he's worried about keeping Tesla out of bankruptcy​_One of Tesla's harshest critics thinks that the company is facing greater financial problems than most analysts realize.
> "Bankruptcy is a real risk for these guys," Gordon Johnson of GLJ Research told CNN Business Thursday.
> 
> "Why? A lot of their cash is locked up in China. They weren't profitable until they were in China; and, given China does not allow companies to repatriate dollars made there out of the country, and Tesla has a real problem."_



So if Taiwan falls, Tesla is dead!!!


----------



## wayneL (25 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> So if Taiwan falls, Tesla is dead!!!



Might be a lot more than Tesla 😲


----------



## Trader X (28 June 2022)

Used Tesla Model 3 listings continue to spike after Model Y launch​Looks like the EV sedan is giving way to the SUV just as in the ICE market.  Might as well try and sell your Model 3 now while prices are still elevated before the Model Y hits the shores in numbers.  A drop in Model 3 sales seems inevitable as will the prices of used Model 3s.


----------



## noirua (9 July 2022)

Twitter to sue Elon Musk after he pulls plug on $44bn takeover deal
					

The terms of the deal require Elon Musk to pay a $1bn (£830m) break-up fee if he does not complete the transaction - but it seems Twitter's board is not planning to accept the payment and will instead take legal action.




					news.sky.com


----------



## JohnDe (10 July 2022)

noirua said:


> Twitter to sue Elon Musk after he pulls plug on $44bn takeover deal
> 
> 
> The terms of the deal require Elon Musk to pay a $1bn (£830m) break-up fee if he does not complete the transaction - but it seems Twitter's board is not planning to accept the payment and will instead take legal action.
> ...




I wonder why the Twitter board are so desperate to sell to Musk that they’ll go to court and allow all their dirty linen to be exposed.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> Used Tesla Model 3 listings continue to spike after Model Y launch​Looks like the EV sedan is giving way to the SUV just as in the ICE market.  Might as well try and sell your Model 3 now while prices are still elevated before the Model Y hits the shores in numbers.  A drop in Model 3 sales seems inevitable as will the prices of used Model 3s.



It matters little what "expert" commentators might say, the general buying public will buy what suits them.
Never underestimate the market.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (10 July 2022)

I find it strange how the market and Tesla SP reacts to Musk’s involvement with Twitter.



> Tesla shares get baby bump as Elon Musk tries to pull out of Twitter deal​
> Tesla shares received an upwards bump in after-hours trading Friday as investors reacted positively to Elon Musk’s move to terminate his $44 billion deal to buy Twitter.
> 
> Tesla shares rose 14.51% to close at $752.29 on Friday. The share price continued to edge higher after regular trading hours by as much as 3.39%, before settling to about a 2.68% increase as of 7:48 pm ET.
> ...


----------



## Trader X (10 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> It matters little what "expert" commentators might say, the general buying public will buy what suits them.
> Never underestimate the market.



And what suits the general buying public is SUVs over sedans.  This trend is now well established in the ICEV market, and with more EV SUVs coming to market, will not doubt be the case for the EV market.  The "expert" commentator in this case was primarily quoting and commenting on market statistics.  Will the Model Y cannibalize Model 3 sales, practically a certainty.  Why are so many new used Model 3s hitting the market?  Smart Model 3 owners who don't underestimate used market realities.


----------



## Value Collector (10 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> _China does not allow companies to repatriate dollars made there out of the country, and Tesla has a real problem."_​




That’s just simply false.


----------



## Trader X (10 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s just simply false.



To be clear, that was a quote from the article in question.  It appears that you can repatriate dividends or expenses and royalties to a parent company.  So the author of that quote should have been more precise but "China maintains a “closed capital account” meaning both companies and individuals must comply strictly to the foreign exchange rules and money cannot be freely moved into or out of the country."  So there are strict constraints on how Tesla can repatriate funds out of China.

How a business can repatriate funds​_"Typically, there are 3 acceptable reasons to send company money out of China. The first is as dividends to shareholders, the second one is as expenses or royalties to the overseas parent company, and the third is as an intra-company loan. The third option isn’t viable as it is intended for borrowing capital and not suitable for repatriating funds. The borrowing company is, by law, required to pay back the lending company with interest."_


----------



## JohnDe (10 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> To be clear, that was a quote from the article in question.  It appears that you can repatriate dividends or expenses and royalties to a parent company.  So the author of that quote should have been more precise but





True, ‘but’ anyone using someone else’s information to make their own point should double check and maybe even use more than one source 🤓


----------



## Trader X (10 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> True, ‘but’ anyone using someone else’s information to make their own point should double check and maybe even use more than one source



I was not "making my own point", the author of the article was trying to make that point and it was correct to a limited extent.  But then why make such distinctions when looking for an opportunity to take a cheap shot at someone.  Try and avoid such pejorative attacks fanboy, it does nothing for the credibility of your commentary here.


----------



## Value Collector (10 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> To be clear, that was a quote from the article in question.  It appears that you can repatriate dividends or expenses and royalties to a parent company.  So the author of that quote should have been more precise but "China maintains a “closed capital account” meaning both companies and individuals must comply strictly to the foreign exchange rules and money cannot be freely moved into or out of the country."  So there are strict constraints on how Tesla can repatriate funds out of China.
> 
> How a business can repatriate funds​_"Typically, there are 3 acceptable reasons to send company money out of China. The first is as dividends to shareholders, the second one is as expenses or royalties to the overseas parent company, and the third is as an intra-company loan. The third option isn’t viable as it is intended for borrowing capital and not suitable for repatriating funds. The borrowing company is, by law, required to pay back the lending company with interest."_



There is also more ways than that, once you have paid 25% company tax in China, and set aside 10% into a reinvestment account to invest back into your operations in China you can repatriate the rest.

—————-
Also the easiest way to do it is to sell the products you manufacture in China at close to cost price to a subsidiary in another country.

Eg, Tesla China sells cars to Tesla Australia at cost price, then when Tesla Australia sells the car to a customer here at retail price the “profit” happens here as a retail profit.

Or, as you mentioned the Tesla factory in China can pay a design royalty on each car manufactured in China back to Tesla parent company in the USA, leaving only a token “profit” in china.

There is basically unlimited ways to set up your company to export profits, it’s not a problem at all, if it were a problem then manufacturing would never have taken off in china to begin with.


----------



## JohnDe (10 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> I was not "making my own point", the author of the article was trying to make that point and it was correct to a limited extent.  But then why make such distinctions when looking for an opportunity to take a cheap shot at someone.  Try and avoid such pejorative attacks fanboy, it does nothing for the credibility of your commentary here.




Ooh, nasty 😇


----------



## qldfrog (16 July 2022)

Hum i usually do not post that type of information but when you you get a new brother /sister whose mum is your sister too, it tends to create a special context and influence some of your attitudes/reaction


			https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/celebrity-kids/elon-musks-dad-errol-has-secret-baby-with-stepdaughter-jana-bezuidenhout/news-story/1c1c91093fa1b2436bd39dcea29fc6a4
		

I do not envy Elon here...


----------



## noirua (17 July 2022)

Musk Tries to Slow Twitter's Push for a Quick Trial Over $44 Billion Deal
					

Musk even chided Twitter officials for being no fun.




					time.com
				




Musk is requesting a Feb. 13, 2023, trial at the earliest, “an extremely rapid schedule for a case of this enormous magnitude,” he said in a 14-page filing, according to a representative for Musk. The judge will hold a hearing July 19 on whether to put the case on a fast track.


----------



## JohnDe (18 July 2022)

Classic line from gossipers "_i usually do not post that type of information but..._" But lets throw it out their and name the son, because... well why not? 

Reminds me of Pulp Fiction, in the voice of Samuel L. Jackson - 
"*The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.*"


----------



## Trader X (25 July 2022)

Liked this commentator's take on Musk simping...

_"There is a segment of the population in whom Elon Musk inspires breathless awe and admiration. If anyone dares criticize him online, these people flock to his defense, citing all of the technological advances they consider him responsible for and for how rich (true) and brilliant (debatable) he is."_

"_*For a lot of the rest of us, it’s hard to understand the appeal*. That he’s rich cannot be denied, but he’s not the one actually developing all of the technologies that he often gets credited with; he just signs the paychecks of the actual brilliant people. He also has a lot of questionable business practices and questionable tweeting habits, and an inability to tolerate anyone criticizing him. Maybe that’s where his fans learned that behavior."_


----------



## JohnDe (25 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> Liked this commentator's take on Musk simping...
> 
> _"There is a segment of the population in whom Elon Musk inspires breathless awe and admiration. If anyone dares criticize him online, these people flock to his defense, citing all of the technological advances they consider him responsible for and for how rich (true) and brilliant (debatable) he is."_
> 
> ...




There's always 2 faces to the coin, but everyone forgets the rim.

One face is the haters
The other is the admirers
And on the rim are those that try to have a balanced view.

Hate him all you want Trader X, no money in that but it is a free world (part of it).

*The Evolution of Elon Musk: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly*

_Throughout Elon’s evolution, I struggled to find one event that would define him. There are so many ups and downs that I couldn’t just point to one moment and say ‘Yep, he’s a jerk because of this.’ or ‘Yep, he’s someone we should aspire to because of that.’ I had to look at the totality of his life in order to make sense of it all._​​_What was clear throughout the book is that Elon operates differently than most other successful people today. Jeff Hammerbacher, an early Facebook engineer, claims that “The best minds of our generation are thinking about how to make people click ads.” And Elon agrees with him saying “I think there are probably too many smart people pursuing internet stuff, finance, and law. That is part of the reason we haven’t seen that much innovation.” But it’s this statement that reveals Elon isn’t after these little innovations. He’s always in pursuit of his larger purpose._​​_"I would like to die thinking that humanity has a bright future. If we can solve sustainable energy and be well on our way to becoming a multiplanetary species with a self-sustaining civilization on another planet… I think that would be really good." - _Elon Musk










						The Evolution of Elon Musk: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly | Adalo Blog
					

Is Elon Musk a jerk or an innovative leader that we should aspire to be?




					www.adalo.com


----------



## Trader X (25 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Hate him all you want Trader X, no money in that but it is a free world.



Don't hate him at all JohnDe, just don't worship the ground he walks on or think him an infallible tech God whose every utterance commands respect and action glowing tribute.  He's a very flawed character, but also a shrewd businessman who's made bold business decisions and taken big risks that have paid off.  You drive around in a car designed by brilliant Tesla engineers, not Musk.  He's the visionary entrepreneur standing on the shoulders of the engineers who made his vision for the company possible just as in Space X.  Idolize them instead of Musk, he's the enabler but did not build your car, design the AI software, batteries, manufacturing innovations etc.


----------



## JohnDe (25 July 2022)

Trader X said:


> Don't hate him at all JohnDe, just don't worship the ground he walks on or think him an infallible tech God whose every utterance commands respect and action glowing tribute.  He's a very flawed character, but also a shrewd businessman who's made bold business decisions and taken big risks that have paid off.  You drive around in a car designed by brilliant Tesla engineers, not Musk.  He's the visionary entrepreneur standing on the shoulders of the engineers who made his vision for the company possible just as in Space X.  Idolize them instead of Musk, he's the enabler but did not build your car, design the AI software, batteries, manufacturing innovations etc.




There's more to it and him than you highlight.

There were many years that I believed the media and I also disliked the man and company. However, as an active investor looking for opportunities I could not ignore the Tesla phenomenon. I began researching the company in 2017, which led to Elon Musk. He is definitely not the usual person that the majority associate with, but not many in that elk are. Read the history of Nikola Tesla & Thomas Edison.

There is no question that the Musk's created their own wealth by creating Zip2, and there is no question that Elon has a very high intellect and has come up with many ideas that require the assistance of specialists in certain fields. Like there is no question that if Elon Musk was not involved with Tesla the company would not be the No. 1 EV manufacturer it is now. With out Musk it could have been another Rivian.

After some research,  including reading Power Play: Elon Musk, Tesla, and the Bet of the Century which was not written by an admirer, I've been investing in TSLA. I started just before Covid, so far I'm still in front. If Elon goes too crazy I'll start selling.


----------



## JohnDe (1 September 2022)

I thought this an interesting interview


----------



## Trader X (7 September 2022)

Is Elon Musk healthy?  Apparently not.


----------



## noirua (8 September 2022)

Elon Musk $258B Dogecoin lawsuit adds plaintiffs
					

An amended complaint says billionaire Tesla CEO Elon Musk and his companies allegedly drove up the value of Dogecoin in a pyramid scheme.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## JohnDe (17 September 2022)




----------



## Country Lad (4 October 2022)

Elon Musk in row with Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy over Twitter poll suggesting Russia should keep Crimea​...and a couple of good responses:

_Ukraine's outgoing diplomat in Germany Andriy Melnyk gave a "very undiplomatic reply". He told the billionaire to "f*** off". 

Lithuania's President Gitanas Nausėda responded: "When someone tries to steal the wheels of your Tesla, it doesn't make them the legal owner." _


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2022)

Country Lad said:


> Elon Musk in row with Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy over Twitter poll suggesting Russia should keep Crimea​...and a couple of good responses:
> 
> _Ukraine's outgoing diplomat in Germany Andriy Melnyk gave a "very undiplomatic reply". He told the billionaire to "f*** off".
> 
> Lithuania's President Gitanas Nausėda responded: "When someone tries to steal the wheels of your Tesla, it doesn't make them the legal owner." _



If anything, Crimea should return to the Greeks.
After all, they ruled it from around the 5th century BC to 64 BC   which parts of it belonged to the Roman Empire, but the Southern Coastal areas remained under Greek Control for another 1400 years.
From the mid 1400's it was Part of the Ottoman Empire, until 1783 when the Russian forces of Catherine the Great  incorporated the Crimea into the Russian empire. 
So Russia's temporal ownership is less than that of either the Ottoman Empire, The Roman Empire, or the Greek empire.
Do any of them want it back?
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (4 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> If anything, Crimea should return to the Greeks.
> After all, they ruled it from around the 5th century BC to 64 BC   which parts of it belonged to the Roman Empire, but the Southern Coastal areas remained under Greek Control for another 1400 years.
> From the mid 1400's it was Part of the Ottoman Empire, until 1783 when the Russian forces of Catherine the Great  incorporated the Crimea into the Russian empire.
> So Russia's temporal ownership is less than that of either the Ottoman Empire, The Roman Empire, or the Greek empire.
> ...



So all of Australia back to the first nation, english prohibited in school etc etc?
Same same ...
But don't worry Ukraine whole of it and Crimea are quite tempting for the Ottoman Empire in rebuild.. Turkey follow the area and let's talk in a decade


----------



## JohnDe (6 November 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2022)

As I said in the twitter musk thread, he is the only one talking sense, the left see him as a radical, as do the right, so in reality he may well capture the majority in the centre.
From your post @JohnDe he seems to have the public ear, with that he seems to be talking common sense, as opposed to mainstream media taking a side and running with it on the hope it increases their audience.
I was sceptical of Musk early on, due my technical background, I thought his EV dream was just that also his space X, but as time moves on the proof of the pudding is showing through.
So with twitter, which I'm not on, I wouldnt write him off, he certainly has to be given credit for past performance IMO.
Much better odds than someone driving around with a drill rig, searching for minerals. Lol
Appologies for the slow post, on the phone in Crown Melbourne, compared to Adelaide cassino a real disappointment.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 November 2022)

According to  MSN there were some twitter employees who were denying users official "Blue Tick"  status, then privately selling said status to the users.



> In what can be quite a sensational development, Twitter's new owner Elon Musk has apparently indicated his agreement when a user demanded investigation into Twitter employees, asking in past, for USD 15,000 for a verification blue tick.
> Within days of taking over Twitter, Musk has announced subscription service for Twitter Blue which the app says would give those who 'sign up now' a blue tick 'just like celebrities'
> 
> Amid all this a Twitter user alleged that in past, Twitter employees privately demanded USD 15,000 for a blue tick.
> ...




I am shocked I tell you, shocked!

Mick


----------



## rcw1 (15 November 2022)

Good morning,
Published this morning, (15/11/22), News Corp Media 

A US trial over Elon Musk’s $US50bn compensation package at Tesla has started in a US court.

Richard Tornetta, a shareholder of the electric car maker, filed a complaint in 2018 on the grounds that Musk and the company’s board of directors failed to respect their duties when they authorised the pay plan.

According to the plaintiff, Musk dictated his terms to directors who were not sufficiently independent from the tech tycoon to object.

The court date landed as Musk is facing a deluge of scrutiny over his $US44bn takeover of Twitter that has seen big layoffs, an exodus of advertisers and a proliferation of fake accounts.  The Tesla shareholder accuses Musk of “unjustified enrichment” and asked for the annulment of the pay program.

According to a legal filing, Musk earned the equivalent of $US52.4bn in stock options over four and a half years after virtually all of the company’s targets were met.  When the plan was adopted, it was valued at a total of $US56bn.

Lawyers for the tycoon and the other defendants argue that the compensation plan is linked to the company’s performance and that Tesla’s stock market value increased more than tenfold since its adoption.

Musk is expected to testify on Wednesday and canceled an in-person appearance at an event on the sidelines of the G20 in Indonesia to attend court.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning,
> Published this morning, (15/11/22), News Corp Media
> 
> A US trial over Elon Musk’s $US50bn compensation package at Tesla has started in a US court.
> ...



Without knowing the merits of the court case, it is most interesting to see the way the MSM has turned on Musk.
Whereas he once was referred to as an Entrepreneur , the article refers to him as  the somewhat derogatory term, tycoon.
Its great when you are media darling, but feel the pain when they turn against you.
Mick


----------



## rcw1 (15 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Without knowing the merits of the court case, it is most interesting to see the way the MSM has turned on Musk.
> Whereas he once was referred to as an Entrepreneur , the article refers to him as  the somewhat derogatory term, tycoon.
> Its great when you are media darling, but feel the pain when they turn against you.
> Mick



Good morning mullokintyre,
For mine, no one escapes the wrath of the media.  If you are in the 'spotlight' long enough they will 'turn on you'.  Most have built resilience to that and have hides thicker than a rhinoceros..

Have a very nice day today.

Kind regards
rcw1


----------



## qldfrog (15 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning mullokintyre,
> For mine, no one escapes the wrath of the media.  If you are in the 'spotlight' long enough they will 'turn on you'.  Most have built resilience to that and have hides thicker than a rhinoceros..
> 
> Have a very nice day today.
> ...



Or they buy the media..look twitter😉


----------



## orr (15 November 2022)

Or another take might be; An ambit claim by one individual, hearalded with trumpets by a toady hack in a  news organisation run by one brother who's  getting zero advertising revenue from major worldwide retail distributor who's warring brother sits on board of  said company.
And early days as to 'Twitter'; could flounder.... Or not, and go on eat the lunch of quite a few established  global media players.  

But see that you might need to step back a little and 'get a bit of scope'...
welcome to further inciteful/insightful input.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 December 2022)

Dominion over Earth.

Still not something most people consider.  Within our lifetime, we may witness the technological singularity.  Suddenly, out of nowhere, large and highly unusual events start popping up across the globe.  There will be a mad scramble to figure out what's going on, and then there will be reports that it's out of control.


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2022)

Has Elon's shakeup of Twitter and its workforce, caused some internal discontent amongst the troops ? You never know he may have woken, the woke, the mob may be roused.
He should never have reinstated Trumps twitter account. 









						Musk's Neuralink under federal investigation for potential animal-welfare violations following staff complaints
					

The probe focuses on violations of the Animal Welfare Act, which governs how researchers treat and test some animals, according to documents reviewed by Reuters and sources familiar with the investigation.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Elon Musk's Neuralink, a medical device company, is under US federal investigation for potential animal-welfare violations amid staff complaints that its animal testing is being rushed, causing needless suffering and deaths.


----------



## Craton (6 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> He should never have reinstated Trumps twitter account.



One could see this coming one way or another, Musk no longer bipartisan and now supports the GOP.



> Musk drops the bipartisan pose — and Republicans cheer​
> Twitter’s new CEO has aligned himself with the GOP and welcomed back far right-wing users as Democratic scrutiny escalates.





> The Republicanization of Elon Musk​Elon Musk's public musings over the last six months have cemented an unmistakable new reality: The world's richest man, and owner of the de facto public square, has become more and more Republican.


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2022)

Craton said:


> One could see this coming one way or another, Musk no longer bipartisan and now supports the GOP.



OMG! The temerity of supporting a mainstream political party that isn't the Dems.

Just unacceptable!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (6 December 2022)

Craton said:


> One could see this coming one way or another, Musk no longer bipartisan and now supports the GOP.



An entrepreneur like that is not going to be a lefty.  It's not possible.  But his attitude is completely different to the typical ruthless, right wing billionaire prick.  His projects are designed to help the world, and they do in large scale.  That's sort of socialist in a way.  I think of him as centre-right.

You know what's strange is that Gates, Zuck and Bezos are extreme right wing in their attitudes and behaviours.  They're aresholes.  But they pretend to be left wing.  They do it to avoid public attack.


----------



## The Triangle (6 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Has Elon's shakeup of Twitter and its workforce, caused some internal discontent amongst the troops ? You never know he may have woken, the woke, the mob may be roused.
> He should never have reinstated Trumps twitter account.
> 
> 
> ...



Elon should have had said he was testing out deadly bat viruses rather than trying to help disabled people and the government would have left him alone.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2022)

Craton said:


> One could see this coming one way or another, Musk no longer bipartisan and now supports the GOP.



This is wrong in the vein of it being a small part of the story. It's a snippet of his actual standing.


----------



## Craton (9 December 2022)

moXJO said:


> This is wrong in the vein of it being a small part of the story. It's a snippet of his actual standing.



Yep, and that small snippet is enough to sway a heck of a lot of people, unlike us open minded types.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2022)

Craton said:


> Yep, and that small snippet is enough to sway a heck of a lot of people, unlike us open minded types.



Absolutely.
However many of his die hard fans are tech oriented, intelligent and often liberal leaning. I haven't seen anyone that has followed him for a long time be swayed.

I myself thought the guy was a giant grifting shtbag. However, me wanting to profit from Tsla shares enlightened me to the fact he is in fact the second coming


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 December 2022)

I think a shift to the right will occur in the US, but not because of Elon's personal preferences.  Remember he has said in the past he has voted for the Dems, so he's a lot more centrally oriented than people are saying.  I think the red-shift will happen as a result of the amount of corruption he's exposing in the old Twitter and their collusion with woke media and Democrats.  What they did was criminal.

Imagine what would be exposed if he took over Goldman Sachs or FB or Enron.... or the government itself!   It would be 10x worse.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (29 December 2022)

Twitter website down.  It was just a matter of time, wasn't it?  I guess it could be an internal issue, but i doubt it.

How long can you go on supporting free speech and exposing the deep state before they attack?  He has upset virtually every oligarch on the planet with his Twitter files:  FBI, CIA, the Leftoids, the Wokezoids, the LTBetc, the bankers, all of silicon valley, all the other social media platforms, Google, the MSM, "journalists".  In a way, it's amazing he's still alive.

It feels like one man against the world, trying to save the planet from tyranny.  TwitterFiles has exposed how deeply corrupt the US system is, and they're only just scraping the surface.  It's murky as hell.  Against this, he has himself and 50 Twitter employees paddling like crazy to defend the fort.  Can they do it?


----------



## mullokintyre (29 December 2022)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Twitter website down.  It was just a matter of time, wasn't it?  I guess it could be an internal issue, but i doubt it.
> 
> How long can you go on supporting free speech and exposing the deep state before they attack?  He has upset virtually every oligarch on the planet with his Twitter files:  FBI, CIA, the Leftoids, the Wokezoids, the LTBetc, the bankers, all of silicon valley, all the other social media platforms, Google, the MSM, "journalists".  In a way, it's amazing he's still alive.
> 
> It feels like one man against the world, trying to save the planet from tyranny.  TwitterFiles has exposed how deeply corrupt the US system is, and they're only just scraping the surface.  It's murky as hell.  Against this, he has himself and 50 Twitter employees paddling like crazy to defend the fort.  Can they do it?



Definitely FBI hack. Or could be CIA.  Or maybe  even fancy bear him(her/they)self!
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (29 December 2022)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Twitter website down.  It was just a matter of time, wasn't it?  I guess it could be an internal issue, but i doubt it.
> 
> How long can you go on supporting free speech and exposing the deep state before they attack?  He has upset virtually every oligarch on the planet with his Twitter files:  FBI, CIA, the Leftoids, the Wokezoids, the LTBetc, the bankers, all of silicon valley, all the other social media platforms, Google, the MSM, "journalists".  In a way, it's amazing he's still alive.
> 
> It feels like one man against the world, trying to save the planet from tyranny.  TwitterFiles has exposed how deeply corrupt the US system is, and they're only just scraping the surface.  It's murky as hell.  Against this, he has himself and 50 Twitter employees paddling like crazy to defend the fort.  Can they do it?



Definitely not the fact he is now running a skeleton staff since he sacked half of them and then asked remaining staff to sign a declaration to work for  him for crazy hours for no more pay and then lost more of his best staff who took the 3 months pay and left to work  somewhere else.

Must be a deep state (of denial) taking place.


----------



## The Triangle (29 December 2022)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Twitter website down.  It was just a matter of time, wasn't it?  I guess it could be an internal issue, but i doubt it.
> 
> How long can you go on supporting free speech and exposing the deep state before they attack?  He has upset virtually every oligarch on the planet with his Twitter files:  FBI, CIA, the Leftoids, the Wokezoids, the LTBetc, the bankers, all of silicon valley, all the other social media platforms, Google, the MSM, "journalists".  In a way, it's amazing he's still alive.
> 
> It feels like one man against the world, trying to save the planet from tyranny.  TwitterFiles has exposed how deeply corrupt the US system is, and they're only just scraping the surface.  It's murky as hell.  Against this, he has himself and 50 Twitter employees paddling like crazy to defend the fort.  Can they do it?



Been on twitter a few times this morning.  Never had an issue.

I wouldn't so much say Elon is exposing the US system, he's just reinforcing human nature and the corruption of power.  The government has always censored people and lied.  The rich have always bought influence.   Not really news to anyone.  Those on the right just said we told you so, and those on the left just said, it's not a big deal and who cares. 

If Elon genuinely worried about the state of free press he could have started his own media site and hired some top Jounalists for considerably less than $40+ billion.  But even he would probably descend into having 50% of his articles about how great tesla is.


----------



## wayneL (29 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Definitely not the fact he is now running a skeleton staff since he sacked half of them and then asked remaining staff to sign a declaration to work for  him for crazy hours for no more pay and then lost more of his best staff who took the 3 months pay and left to work  somewhere else.
> 
> Must be a deep state (of denial) taking place.



LMAO. 

Crazy hours? Like, normal hours everybody else works for that sort of money?

Do you have your own business, Knobs, or to you work for someone?

Twitter was in a losing vortex of insane salary costs and destroying half its readership. Musk is about turning a profit, that ain't gonna happen with a wage roll 500% of what is should be, even with the odd brief outage.

Jezuz, FaceAche does the same thing occasionally.

Careful now, your cognitive biases are showing through and one should keep those under cover


----------



## JohnDe (29 December 2022)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Twitter website down.  It was just a matter of time, wasn't it?  I guess it could be an internal issue, but i doubt it.
> 
> How long can you go on supporting free speech and exposing the deep state before they attack?  He has upset virtually every oligarch on the planet with his Twitter files:  FBI, CIA, the Leftoids, the Wokezoids, the LTBetc, the bankers, all of silicon valley, all the other social media platforms, Google, the MSM, "journalists".  In a way, it's amazing he's still alive.
> 
> It feels like one man against the world, trying to save the planet from tyranny.  TwitterFiles has exposed how deeply corrupt the US system is, and they're only just scraping the surface.  It's murky as hell.  Against this, he has himself and 50 Twitter employees paddling like crazy to defend the fort.  Can they do it?




No problem with Twitter on my side of the world. Was on it  early this morning, and just tried now.


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No problem with Twitter on my side of the world. Was on it  early this morning, and just tried now.



the internet ( in general ) is unreliable here ( my trading platforms etc. )  today ,   this is about as 'social ' as i get 

 Twitter is a sideshow distraction  to me ( something that pops up in articles  now and then )


----------



## Value Collector (29 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No problem with Twitter on my side of the world. Was on it  early this morning, and just tried now.



I think the global elites managed to take it down for about 2 minutes, Hahaha


----------



## wayneL (29 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> the internet ( in general ) is unreliable here ( my trading platforms etc. )  today ,   this is about as 'social ' as i get
> 
> Twitter is a sideshow distraction  to me ( something that pops up in articles  now and then )



Twitter is one of the best resources for financial/economic news and opinions in real time. 

Plenty of rabbit holes to go down however, especially for a politics junky like me.


----------



## divs4ever (29 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Twitter is one of the best resources for financial/economic news and opinions in real time.
> 
> Plenty of rabbit holes to go down however, especially for a politics junky like me.



too distracting for me 

 besides my original mentor was a JBS member  most of those 'rabbit-holes' are old news  with a new coat of paint and street signs 

 by the way the current chatter is only the tip of the iceberg  , it is MUCH worse


----------



## wayneL (29 December 2022)

JBS? Possibly because I've been at the pub since it got too hot today, but I'm drawing a blank on that one.


----------



## noirua (30 December 2022)




----------



## JohnDe (30 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> the internet ( in general ) is unreliable here ( my trading platforms etc. )  today ,   this is about as 'social ' as i get
> 
> Twitter is a sideshow distraction  to me ( something that pops up in articles  now and then )


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Definitely not the fact he is now running a skeleton staff since he sacked half of them and then asked remaining staff to sign a declaration to work for  him for crazy hours for no more pay and then lost more of his best staff who took the 3 months pay and left to work  somewhere else.
> 
> Must be a deep state (of denial) taking place.



The ones he sacked were all lefty wokeazoids.  7000 of them.  They didn't actually do any work, they just sat around talking about 'safe spaces' and how they were going to save the world by deleting that half the population who voted conservative.  If they had done any meaningful work, Twitter would have fallen apart in their absence.  Yet it's working better than ever.


----------



## Bill M (31 December 2022)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Twitter would have fallen apart in their absence. Yet it's working better than ever.




I am a Twitter user and I have never used it more than this year following the events of the war in Europe. What I really hate on it is that it is heavily censored, they delete photos and videos that upset some people. Nearly all those feeds are directed to Telegram but I won't join it because they want my phone number. WTF do they want your phone number for crazy? So I have no choice, stick with Twitter.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2022)

I don't have twitter, I don't have Facebook, but I do know many many people are becoming sceptical of mainstream news providers.
So from my limited powers of reasoning, I would guess the mainstream media providers are somewhat like the legacy car manufacturers and are worried where Elon is going.
I must confess I wasn't a fan, but the more he moves on, the more he seems to be proven correct.
Take his space X, Tesla cars, the low orbit internet satellites, it is hard to write him off or underestimate Jim IMO.
There are way too many people today who think they are smart, because they have Google and mobile phone access to it, but there still aren't many people who are independently wealthy from their own intellect. Lol


----------



## SirRumpole (Today at 10:24 AM)

We have a new record for loss of fortune, Elon Musk , whose net worth has dropped by $200 billion, the biggest drop in history.

Never mind, he's still worth $127 billion, unfortunately the same can't be said for a lot of TSLA shareholders.









						Elon Musk has lost a bigger fortune than anyone in history - ABC17NEWS
					

By David Goldman, CNN Elon Musk’s wealth destruction has become historic. The CEO of Tesla, SpaceX and Twitter is worth $137 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, good enough for second place on the list of the world’s richest behind LVMH Chairman Bernard Arnault. But at its...




					abc17news.com


----------



## sptrawler (Today at 11:41 AM)

SirRumpole said:


> We have a new record for loss of fortune, Elon Musk , whose net worth has dropped by $200 billion, the biggest drop in history.
> 
> Never mind, he's still worth $127 billion, unfortunately the same can't be said for a lot of TSLA shareholders.
> 
> ...



Interesting isn't it, the only difference between a successful Musk/TSLA and a unsuccessful Musk/TSLA, is ownership of a media?  Hmmm maybe he should just revert back to singing from the song sheet, then everything will go back to happy and normal, in the kingdom . 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (Today at 12:40 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting isn't it, the only difference between a successful Musk/TSLA and a unsuccessful Musk/TSLA, is ownership of a media?  Hmmm maybe he should just revert back to singing from the song sheet, then everything will go back to happy and normal, in the kingdom . 🤣




Yes, investors are fickle people aren't they ?

There is probably nothing wrong with Tesla's business model, they are selling a good product at 'reasonable' prices, but investors have marked down the company over fears its CEO is going off the rails.

It's probably not rational, but hey, the market is always right, right ?


----------



## sptrawler (Today at 1:16 PM)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, investors are fickle people aren't they ?
> 
> There is probably nothing wrong with Tesla's business model, they are selling a good product at 'reasonable' prices, but investors have marked down the company over fears its CEO is going off the rails.
> 
> It's probably not rational, but hey, the market is always right, right ?



Who say's he is going off the rails?


----------



## Value Collector (46 minutes ago)

SirRumpole said:


> We have a new record for loss of fortune, Elon Musk , whose net worth has dropped by $200 billion, the biggest drop in history.
> 
> Never mind, he's still worth $127 billion, unfortunately the same can't be said for a lot of TSLA shareholders.
> 
> ...



He hasn’t really lost anything though, he still owns the same assets, just the market price other people are trading their shares at has changed.

Think of it like the price that farms trade at changing daily, does the family that holds their farm planning to farm in for the next 20 years lose or gain anything from daily movements, I don’t think so.


----------



## SirRumpole (45 minutes ago)

sptrawler said:


> Who say's he is going off the rails?




Well I think there must be apprehension in the minds of TSLA shareholders that Musk's attention is being diverted from making them money into some quasi-political flag flying operation at Twitter.

Just look at what TSLA share price is doing, sure there are some internal effects like chip shortages and so on but that can't be the whole reason.


----------



## SirRumpole (42 minutes ago)

Value Collector said:


> He hasn’t really lost anything though, he still owns the same assets, just the market price other people are trading their shares at has changed.
> 
> Think of it like the price that farms trade at changing daily, does the family that holds their farm planning to farm in for the next 20 years lose or gain anything from daily movements, I don’t think so.




Yes it's a paper loss, but the value of assets at any particular time is what you can get for them at that time.


----------



## JohnDe (38 minutes ago)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I think there must be apprehension in the minds of TSLA shareholders that Musk's attention is being diverted from making them money into some quasi-political flag flying operation at Twitter.
> 
> Just look at what TSLA share price is doing, sure there are some internal effects like chip shortages and so on but that can't be the whole reason.




What happened during the GFC?


----------



## InsvestoBoy (38 minutes ago)

SirRumpole said:


> We have a new record for loss of fortune, Elon Musk , whose net worth has dropped by $200 billion, the biggest drop in history.
> 
> Never mind, he's still worth $127 billion, unfortunately the same can't be said for a lot of TSLA shareholders.
> 
> ...




I've always said it's dumb that the media quote oligarch net worth by multiplying their share count by the current price. It's as dumb today to say he lost money as it was last year to say he was the richest man in the world.

The only difference in this case is that he stupidly margin'd his Twitter acquisition using Tesla shares.



sptrawler said:


> Interesting isn't it, the only difference between a successful Musk/TSLA and a unsuccessful Musk/TSLA, is ownership of a media?  Hmmm maybe he should just revert back to singing from the song sheet, then everything will go back to happy and normal, in the kingdom . 🤣




The insinuation that Musk net worth going down because he's not toeing some imaginary line is absurdly stupid.

TSLA is eating it because, aside from beta to US growth stocks in general, people aren't buying the cars, leading to all time high inventories.

Nothing special. Just like all the other growth stocks that were priced for perfection and coming off that as the fundamentals play out less than perfect.







sptrawler said:


> Who say's he is going off the rails?




Anyone paying attention to the crazy **** he's been doing.


----------



## SirRumpole (35 minutes ago)

InsvestoBoy said:


> TSLA is eating it because, aside from beta to US growth stocks in general, people aren't buying the cars, leading to all time high inventories.




Interesting when we are hearing from the Musk luvvies that things are going gangbusters at Tesla.


----------



## JohnDe (31 minutes ago)

InsvestoBoy said:


> I've always said it's dumb that the media quote oligarch net worth by multiplying their share count by the current price. It's as dumb today to say he lost money as it was last year to say he was the richest man in the world.
> 
> The only difference in this case is that he stupidly margin'd his Twitter acquisition using Tesla shares.
> 
> ...




How much inventory is there (number of unsold vehicles)?


----------



## InsvestoBoy (19 minutes ago)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting when we are hearing from the Musk luvvies that things are going gangbusters at Tesla.




I think the issue is actually on the demand side.



JohnDe said:


> How much inventory is there (number of unsold vehicles)?




I can't find the chart I saw on Twitter, but it showed rapid surge in inventories back to or above 2019 levels (which were the highest on the chart).


----------



## InsvestoBoy (17 minutes ago)

JohnDe said:


> How much inventory is there (number of unsold vehicles)?




Here's an image from their annual report I got from googling "tesla unsold vehicles"



(h/t this random SeekingAlpha article https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...ry-miss-granular-breakdown-advanced-valuation which is a bullish one, in case anyone accuses me of finding some permabear analysis).


----------



## JohnDe (1 minute ago)

InsvestoBoy said:


> Here's an image from their annual report I got from googling "tesla unsold vehicles"
> View attachment 151585
> 
> 
> (h/t this random SeekingAlpha article https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...ry-miss-granular-breakdown-advanced-valuation which is a bullish one, in case anyone accuses me of finding some permabear analysis).




34,000 world wide? What happens the following month with stock?


----------

