# Advice required



## mrpuddinz (7 December 2007)

Dear all,
just like the first time when you were a kid and had the courage to go for a swim on your own without any supervised assistance, i too feel scared when thinking of taking the plunge into the share trading "pool". the problem is that i have been bombarded with so much information and programs offering "security, wealth, financial freedom, independance etc etc etc" that i feel that i am starting to sink without the worldly advice of an unbiased hardened trader.  
So.....in light of the above, i hold my hand out for your assistance, wisdom and help in at least pointing me in the right direction.  

to explain my scenario, I have a reasonable amount of capital which i would like to invest into the share market. i have done some research and i feel that derivatives are the way i would like to go. in saying this, i am thinking of giving my hard earned cash to an Australian options trading company called "camelot derivatives". they use condor spreads and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month. the catch is that they require an excessive amount of capital (minimum 50K) to begin with before they do any trading for you. though they provide daily reports and claim to be totally legit, i am a little concerned with the capital required to start. any comments?

i also did the optionetics 3 day trading course approx 3 years ago and was incredibly mad  after paying my cash and then told that i needed to spend a further $6,000.00 to purchase a technical analysis program, something that was never ever mentioned in the intro or the first few hours of the course! i now have all the material and have realised that unless i have the expensive technical analysis software it is useless.

finally i have also been approached by a sports arbitrage company "MGM Sports" and a technical analysis software firm called "data Share". both promise wonderful returns yet skim on a lot of detail when the hard questions are asked. 

sorry for the long write up but any advise and wisdom would be greatly appreciated before committing my capital anywhere. also. please feel free to recommend whom you may think offers great service and support. i am not afraid to pay for good support and service if the returns a reasonable. my goal is not a get rich scheme. 

thanking you all in advance for your help.


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## saina (7 December 2007)

Hi there!

I know of couple of people who done the works and have bought the expensive software.  Both of them have left their paying jobs and do Options full time.  Whenever we discuss options they always claim that they are doing reasonably well - now I don't know if it is true.  Both did their course and bought software from Optionetics.


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## chewy (7 December 2007)

Dude that all sounds way to complex and like a good way of getting ripped off. If their fancy schemes and programs work so well why don't they just make a killing using them instead of trying to get you to buy them??

I am a noob investor so probably the last person to give you advice - but you said you are "not after a get rich quick scheme". So why not just keep it simple and put most your money into good quality bluechips and play around with a small amount of your capital on more specultive high growth stocks. 

I guess you should really speak to a good financial advisor that is non-biased (i.e. has nothing to sell you).


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## SevenFX (7 December 2007)

mrpuddinz said:


> finally i have also been approached by a sports arbitrage company "MGM Sports" and a technical analysis software firm called "data Share". both promise wonderful returns yet skim on a lot of detail when the hard questions are asked.
> .




I posted another company that promised WHAT SEEMS way to much to be true... but guess noone else have heard about it or didn't see the thread???

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8946&highlight=sports

WELCOME aboard Mrpuddinz.

SevenFX


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## Trembling Hand (7 December 2007)

mrpuddinz said:


> they use condor spreads and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month.




A guarantee 5% per month. What’s stopping you...

Maybe their guarantee  is not really a guarantee.....

Whenever you get someone else to trade your money Number One Rule. 
SET AN ACCOUNT STOPLOSS THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT AND AGREE ON BEFORE YOU GIVE THEM MONEY.


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## Timmy (7 December 2007)

Are you clear about what it is you want?

Camelot Derivatives manages your money for you, from their website "The agreement between the client and Camelot is a managed discretionary agreement. This allows Camelot Derivatives to trade options on behalf of the client ...blah, blah, blah."  

Quite different to something like Optionetics, where you will trade for yourself ... but you have had the experience with them and did your dough... an expensive lesson, but learn from it.    

Data Share - never heard of them, neither has Google apparently.  MGM Sports, see SevenFX's post and thread.  The fact that neither of these two companies will answer your hard questions sort of answers your questions doesn't it?  Don't walk away from them.  Run.

My 2 cents, for what its worth, if you are fairly new to it all and uncertain - check out Nick Radge's course, books and newsletter.  There is a reason why Nick gets recommendations, he does not make outlandish promises to you, his products are good value for money, and so on.  If you want to check out his work at virtually no cost I suggest buying his book "Adaptive Analysis"; if you read, study and understand the first 50 pages you will have a great grounding from which to progress.  I do not know Nick, but I own his two books and recommend them.

Hope this helps.


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## sails (7 December 2007)

mrpuddinz said:


> ...to explain my scenario, I have a reasonable amount of capital which i would like to invest into the share market. i have done some research and i feel that derivatives are the way i would like to go. in saying this, i am thinking of giving my hard earned cash to an Australian options trading company called "camelot derivatives". they use condor spreads and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month. the catch is that they require an excessive amount of capital (minimum 50K) to begin with before they do any trading for you. though they provide daily reports and claim to be totally legit, i am a little concerned with the capital required to start. any comments?...




Welcome mrpuddinz!

The large amount of capital required is most probably due to condor spreads being extremely margin hungry where large losses can be incurred in a black swan type event (incl. take over risk on the upside).  If all goes well and the share price kindly closes within the condor profit zone each month, they do return a profit.  But IF if closes outside, the loss area falls away very quickly.  You should have information  (incl. risk graphs) on these in your optionetics material.  If not, let me know and I will post a risk graph of a condor for you.



> i also did the optionetics 3 day trading course approx 3 years ago and was incredibly mad  after paying my cash and then told that i needed to spend a further $6,000.00 to purchase a technical analysis program, something that was never ever mentioned in the intro or the first few hours of the course! i now have all the material and have realised that unless i have the expensive technical analysis software it is useless.




Been there and done that too - a bit over 4 years since I did the course.  Not only the extra cost on the software, but to find out that the two day course mainly teaches option basics with about $25-30k more to be spent on courses.  Not to mention that they changed their analytical software from "Advanced Get" to "Profit Source" - meaning that all the new courses would be taught using Profit Source.  I only did the two day - could not justify the huge price tag - let alone having to go to the US for their advanced courses.  I (and several others I met during the optionetics course) found Advanced Get was no piece of magic. It is just another analytical tool which can and does give false signals at times - so don't be too concerned that you have missed out.  

I think option trading has far more to do with understanding the option greeks than relying technical software which doesn't always get it right anyway.  If just trading directionally with options, it is quite possible to get direction right but still lose on the option trade - it's all in the greeks. 

 I found  Charles Cottle's "Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda" very good for gaining further understanding of the greeks - not easy reading and quite difficult to get the head around.  The ebook was free some time ago, but believe it has now been replaced by "Options Trading; The Hidden Reality" and available as a PDF for US$45 to date.  http://www.riskdoctor.com/

I use the Hoadley tools http://www.hoadley.net/options/strategymodel.htm for some of my options analysis - some of it is free otherwise was about $99 last time I upgraded for the full version.  Also recently found Options Oracle which is free and quite helpful:  http://www.samoasky.com/

Last, but certainly not least, I agree with Timmy's earlier post that Nick Radge's courses may be helpful.  He was doing condors on his Chartist program some time ago (not sure if he is still doing them though) - cost is a reasonable monthly fee. http://www.thechartist.com.au/  Personally, I feel you would gain far better information on learning technical analysis from some one like Nick than just trying to decipher Advanced Get or Profit Source on your own!

Cheers


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## Mouse (7 December 2007)

Hi,

"and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month."

I'm pretty sure my bank account pays more than that, and there's less risk of losing it!

The only course I have done is the free one on etrade.  

cheers
Mouse


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## Nick Radge (7 December 2007)

Yes I do run a Condor Portfolio which comes with a 20 page instruction document for annual subscribers. The idea is that you take it away and put it to use in the US markets where life is a lot easier than the Aussie options. The strategy itself is nothing special. Any Google search will give you the answers. My instruction guide has built very specific rules from my own experiences - some painful, but that's what people pay for - my experiences. 

To give you an idea of what to expect with the strategy itself here are the results from our 8-months of trading: 

Start Capital: $40,000
End Capital:   $47,640 (incl comm's)
# Trades: 45
Win%: 84.4%
Win/Loss: 0.35

The 19% return in 8-months is ok but should be more as I have used a full service broker rates of $66 per ticket. You can now do the trades through Interactive Brokers at $1.30 per option. On 45 trades this is a HUGE saving. Same applies to the US and the opportunities are substantially more, as are the bid/offer spreads. You cam also see that the win/loss ratio is very small which is exactly what sails alluded to and why very strict rules are needed.

I would highly recommend Sheldon Natenberg's book, "Option Volatility & Pricing" and any posts herein by sails and WayneL.  The Hoadley tools are also well worth the money but Google and some time reading always does the trick. There is a tonne of info on the web about Iron Condors

With a large amount of capital there is no reason to stick with one single strategy either, especially when dealing into the US. Iron Condors are great for non-directional plays but there are plenty of directional plays that are worthwhile pursuing with short spreads combined with simple technical analysis.



_This post may contain advice that has been prepared by Reef Capital Coaching ABN 24 092 309 978 (“RCC”) and is general advice and does not take account of your objectives, financial situation or needs. Before acting on this general advice you should therefore consider the appropriateness of the advice having regard to your situation. We recommend you obtain financial, legal and taxation advice before making any financial investment decision._


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## Timmy (7 December 2007)

Mouse said:


> Hi,
> 
> "and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month."
> 
> ...




Wow! I want to put my money in your bank.


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## chewy (7 December 2007)

Mouse said:


> Hi,
> 
> "and other option trading strategies to supposedly guarantee returns of approx 5% per month."
> 
> ...




You have a bank account that pays 60% p.a.


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## Mouse (7 December 2007)

Meh, my bad  It's over 5% per year paid monthly!

cheers
Mouse


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## danpas (7 July 2008)

Hi everyone

I was wondering if anyone has been approached from MGM Sports since this thread began?  i recently have received phone calls from them....any advice would be much appreciated!


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## springhill (19 June 2009)

danpas said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has been approached from MGM Sports since this thread began?  i recently have received phone calls from them....any advice would be much appreciated!




Yeah mate they posted me info late last year, and the obligatory follow up phone call. Needless to say i saved $$ on toilet paper the day the brochure arrived, ill leave it to your imagination as to what i did with it.......
As a post above mentions why sell something, when you can make a bazillion off it yourself? If it looks too good to be true, it usually is


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## Mr J (19 June 2009)

springhill said:


> Yeah mate they posted me info late last year, and the obligatory follow up phone call. Needless to say i saved $$ on toilet paper the day the brochure arrived, ill leave it to your imagination as to what i did with it.......
> As a post above mentions why sell something, when you can make a bazillion off it yourself? If it looks too good to be true, it usually is




Because you'll make more with other people's money, except of course in sportsbetting where you'll quickly run into issues with betting limits.


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## kam75 (19 June 2009)

Don't pay anyone anything to educate you.  Most of the stuff out there is scams designed to part with your money.  You go to a free seminar, then find out you need to spend $5000 for education.  you spend $5000 for education to find out you need to spend $3000 for software.  You spend $8000 now only to find out you need another $2000 for membership etc etc.  Then at the end of $10,000 bucks you find out the stuff's bogus.  You go and complain only to be told that it's you that's the problem and everyone else is making money.  Anyway, we've all here heard it before.  Typical marketing of spruikers.

The way I see it, if you want the learn how to trade, learn by yourself.  There's excellent books out there by brilliant authors and market legends.

1. How I made 2 million dollars in the stockmarket - Nicolas Darvas
2. The Trading Tribe - Ed Seykota
3. Reminiscences of a Stock Operator - Edwin Le Fevre
4. Trading in the Zone - Ari Kiev
5. Pitt Bull - Marty Schwartz

and few other by Jack Schwager and also Van Tharp.

I've been a trader for 7 years and made a heck of a lot of money in the market so believe me when I tell you this: if you read, study and apply the knowledge and principles in the above books you will succeed at trading.  All up will cost you less than $200 bucks.


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## springhill (19 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> Because you'll make more with other people's money, except of course in sportsbetting where you'll quickly run into issues with betting limits.




I take your point. You'll make more with the *SAFETY* of using other peoples money, why risk your own right?


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## Mr J (19 June 2009)

springhill said:


> I take your point. You'll make more with the *SAFETY* of using other peoples money, why risk your own right?




Safety will be the major attraction for many, but personally my money would stay at risk. I would be looking to profit from the performance fees and growth of my own slice, rather than hoping to get lucky and collect management fees along the way .


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## Aussiest (19 June 2009)

kam75 said:


> The way I see it, if you want the learn how to trade, learn by yourself.  There's excellent books out there by brilliant authors and market legends.




Congratulations on your success Kam!

The only course i've been tempted to do is the Wealth Within course. The only reason i say this is because the founder, Dale Gillham, used to talk on a radio show i used to listen to and he sounded really on the ball.

I probably wouldn't bother doing it now, but it might be good for a newbie.


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