# A Billion Dollars for Indonesia



## roland (10 December 2008)

Rudd has announced a billion dollar loan facility for Indonesia to help with the global down turn.

I must be very naive, but shouldn't we be fixing up the many problems here before we start helping out people in a country where many want to see Aussies pushing up daisies.

There are even some who believe that an Indonesian invasion of Australia is only a matter of time: http://www.investigatemagazine.com/june00sas.htm


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## MrBurns (10 December 2008)

roland said:


> Rudd has announced a billion dollar loan facility for Indonesia to help with the global down turn.
> 
> I must be very naive, but shouldn't we be fixing up the many problems here before we start helping out people in a country where many want to see Aussies pushing up daisies.
> 
> There are even some who believe that an Indonesian invasion of Australia is only a matter of time: http://www.investigatemagazine.com/june00sas.htm




Plenty of charities here been given the chop, they'll love to hear about this.

Charity starts at home especially in times like this.

Rudd has no problem throwing the surplus around.


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## Wysiwyg (10 December 2008)

roland said:


> I must be very naive, but shouldn't we be fixing up the many problems here before we start helping out people in a country where many want to see Aussies pushing up daisies.





Recent government billions committed to australia ... (note the poor journalist spelling)



> The federal Government's decided to pump an extra $6.2-billion into the industry, with the aim of making it viable by 2020.




http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2415594.htm

and the present 10.3 billion dollar family assistance package.

Here is a link to government grants/assistance packages which may not enlighten, i think.

http://www.grantslink.gov.au/Info.aspx?NodeID=3


p.s. why generalise about you know what (hint daisies).A handful of d.h`s don`t make a country.


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## roland (10 December 2008)

I suppose it depends on what they spend it on:

Based on the 2005-2009 strategic state defence development program, the Defense Ministry says it needs 74.4 trillion rupiah ($8 billion) for this fiscal year, but the government has meanly allocated only 32.6 trillion, although this represented an increase of 15.6% on the 2006 defense budget of 28.2 trillion.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1128/defence-spending/


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## arae (10 December 2008)

As someone who's lived in Jakarta most of their adult life, I can assure you much of that money will simply 'disappear' into the hands of the corrupt. Then Indonesia can happily continue on being one of the most resource rich, yet poorest countries in Asia.

Well Spent Kevin.


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## MrBurns (10 December 2008)

arae said:


> As someone who's lived in Jakarta most of their adult life, I can assure you much of that money will simply 'disappear' into the hands of the corrupt. Then Indonesia can happily continue on being one of the most resource rich, yet poorest countries in Asia.
> 
> Well Spent Kevin.




Interesting thanks for sharing, I bet Kevin knows that to.

Why doesnt he filter it through ther Red Cross or something.


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## moXJO (10 December 2008)

Bit of political bootlicking between countries. Australia is aiming more for a push towards Asian demographics. Nothing more then a token effort but might grease some wheels for trade. 

Could we see a return of certain (bali) prisoners in the near future to score more media brownie points for Rudd? Might be on the agenda. Another symbolic move that wouldn’t really achieve much, but would possibly rate highly with the public. And divert attention away from the big R word.


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## MrBurns (10 December 2008)

moXJO said:


> Bit of political bootlicking between countries. Australia is aiming more for a push towards Asian demographics. Nothing more then a token effort but might grease some wheels for trade.
> 
> Could we see a return of certain (bali) prisoners in the near future to score more media brownie points for Rudd? Might be on the agenda. Another symbolic move that wouldn’t really achieve much, but would possibly rate highly with the public. And divert attention away from the big R word.




$1B should buy a few favors.


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## numbercruncher (10 December 2008)

Should keep a few hundred thousand boat people out ....

Its only a loan I guess ....


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## roland (10 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Should keep a few hundred thousand boat people out ....
> 
> Its only a loan I guess ....




sounds like another sub-prime loan to me


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## Wysiwyg (10 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> $1B should buy a few favors.




Why is there an ulterior motive in this action?The government may be genuine in their support of neighbouring countries.Like I give the lady nextdoor a bit of attention now and then and don`t expect any interest in return.This Kev is an all-round nice guy and has the tax payers funds at his disposal to prove it.

Beware though!Beneath the nice guy veneer is a schemer with plans for Australia that will light-up newspapers for the rest of his term as Prime Minister.


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## Julia (10 December 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Why is there an ulterior motive in this action?The government may be genuine in their support of neighbouring countries.Like I give the lady nextdoor a bit of attention now and then and don`t expect any interest in return.This Kev is an all-round nice guy and has the tax payers funds at his disposal to prove it.



Good Lord, I hope you had your tongue firmly in your cheek when you said this!

Maybe we should all be grateful that Mr Rudd hasn't actually obliged Indonesia with the full amount they asked for, e.g. $2 billion.
When I think of all the worthwhile uses for those funds right here in Australia I feel a bit sick, but hey, nothing to worry about.  Plenty more to come.
Another 30 odd million today to further prop up ABC Learning.
Want some money?  Just put your hand up.
 The government doesn't mind creating a large deficit to fund all these hand outs.

I wonder if they'll still be riding so high in the polls when the handouts stop and the taxes and charges hit us in order to reduce the deficit before the next election.


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## doctorj (10 December 2008)

The way I see it, if the poo really hits the fan, $1bill of bad debt to Indonesia will be the least of the government's problems (think depression).  And if it doesn't get that bad, we'll get our money back plus interest in due course, which to me sounds much better than sticking it in the future fund to pay for more Telstra shares.

In reality, it's a small price to pay to help ensure Indonesia remains relatively stable.  It's much better than having millions of unemployed Indonesians radicalised right on our doorstep.

The deficit isn't great, but Australia is in a much stronger position entering the crisis than many comparable nations.  The fact we've managed to save (or atleast pay down debt) in good times gives us every chance of riding out the bad.

The alternative is not lending, which is *much* worse.  Last week, one senior European Central Banker described not lending to each other as akin to collective suicide.


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## Garpal Gumnut (10 December 2008)

Its a good move.

They are a large godbothering nation.

The government keep a cap on it.

We need them to stop illegal migration by people smugglers.

They are a poor country, we are rich.

Its a good move 

gg


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## arae (11 December 2008)

I agree with it being a smart move for Australia from the 'favours' perspective. But it will do little good for the Indonesian economy. Groundhog day or a merry-go-round comes to mind.

The threat of Indonesia to Australian national security is also way overplayed. 99.99% of Indonesians are the most harmless, peace loving people you could meet. Terrorism links and training also tends to come from Malaysia and the Indonesian military are ill equiped for a game of paintball.


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## GumbyLearner (11 December 2008)

Maybe Tommy Suharto's Lamborghini shares got shorted.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (11 December 2008)

arae said:


> I agree with it being a smart move for Australia from the 'favours' perspective. But it will do little good for the Indonesian economy. Groundhog day or a merry-go-round comes to mind.
> 
> The threat of Indonesia to Australian national security is also way overplayed. 99.99% of Indonesians are the most harmless, peace loving people you could meet. Terrorism links and training also tends to come from Malaysia and the Indonesian military are ill equiped for a game of paintball.




The threat is the boat loads of illegals. Hopefully the billion will help stop that.


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## ZackW (11 December 2008)

$1bn? Never mind this poor soul then:



Never mind the show trial, the refusal to test the drugs for country of origin, the subsequent burning of that evidence so it could never be used to free her, the 'judge' who had never acquitted anyone in 500 drug trials, the President urging an example to be made pre-verdict, the refusal even to collect CCTV from denpasar airport.

Never even mind the barbaric 20 YEAR sentence, more than murderers, rapists and terrorists often get. Never mind the loss of legal and human rights of an Australian citizen.

Let's just brush it under the carpet and bung them $1 billion. 

What is going on here? She is dying there, whilst the media brainwash a nation with what is nothing more than unsubstantiated smear.

Even whilst you read this, this song is buzzing around the world, but is hidden in Oz because it isn't a smear. 

When are people going to wake up?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (11 December 2008)

ZackW said:


> When are people going to wake up?



That is a huge ask for a lot of people.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (11 December 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6981026.stm
Russian and Indonesian arms deal. 
I have heard on radio that no bank would secure the deal but have had trouble looking for a source to an article to read. 

Is this a circumstance?


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## Sean K (11 December 2008)

roland said:


> There are even some who believe that an Indonesian invasion of Australia is only a matter of time: http://www.investigatemagazine.com/june00sas.htm



Only with the help of the US.

What are they going to invade with? A handful of canoes? They wouldn't make it over the moat. 

And anyway, we have the Kiwis to back us up.   


As I said in the Australian Economic Analysis thread, we need stable countries around us during this time. If it gets to depression stage, there will be even more poor, hungry, young, impressionable people looking for something to do. It's already started in China. But not invasion by Indonesia, yet.


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## Wysiwyg (11 December 2008)

Planting pot in a boogie board bag is stupid.20 years penalty for a human being doing that even more stupid.

Guilty -- she has paid enough.Let her go.
Not guilty -- the prosecutors deserve persecution to the grave.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (11 December 2008)

> Only with the help of the US.



Or Russia.


> What are they going to invade with? A handful of canoes? They wouldn't make it over the moat.



They are sorting the canoes from the advanced submarines in the brochures posted by Russia. 


> And anyway, we have the Kiwis to back us up.



Long live ANZAC.


> As I said in the Australian Economic Analysis thread, we need stable countries around us during this time. If it gets to depression stage, there will be even more poor, hungry, young, impressionable people looking for something to do. It's already started in China. But not invasion by Indonesia, *yet*.



I agree that we need stable countries which surround Australia. 
Buying Submarines and attack helicopters helps the *yet* situation become closer to reality.


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## MrBurns (11 December 2008)

Just heard it's now $1.5B - not hard to get angry over this , everybodys pal Rudd just throws OUR money to a regime that jails our citizens for 20 yeares on what could be a trumped up drugs charge and usesthe death penalty which we object to.

Rudd obviously subscribes to the Gareth Evens school of bowing and scraping to the Indonesians.

I would agree to this if they agreed to have *some respect for* and not *offend* us.


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## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

doctorj said:


> The way I see it, if the poo really hits the fan, $1bill of bad debt to Indonesia will be the least of the government's problems (think depression).  And if it doesn't get that bad, we'll get our money back plus interest in due course, which to me sounds much better than sticking it in the future fund to pay for more Telstra shares.
> 
> In reality, it's a small price to pay to help ensure Indonesia remains relatively stable.  *It's much better than having millions of unemployed Indonesians radicalised right on our doorstep.*




Hmm. Does KRudd know something we don't? Buying favour IS usually a tactic of last resort before the $***e goes down...



> The deficit isn't great, but Australia is in a much stronger position entering the crisis than many comparable nations.  *The fact we've managed to save (or atleast pay down debt) in good times gives us every chance of riding out the bad*.
> 
> The alternative is not lending, which is *much* worse.



 We seem to be entirely focussed on our own piddly economy - the Current Account. However, I'm not so sure we've managed to pay down much of our overall HUGE Foreign Debt! Of course, every country is racking up foreign debt like there is no tomorrow (oops, maybe they are right?) so why don't we? May as well join the bunch. 



> Last week, *one senior European Central Banker described not lending to each other as akin to collective suicide*.




Well, senior bankers are generally fond of such quips. However, I have news for them. Before the advent of Merchant Banks, Central Banks, Investment Banks etc, the human race actually survived quite well on a system of barter.

Let's face it, you can't lend without implying debt - and right now, "debt" is a four letter word. Maybe we should boot out the banks and their fat cats and go back to a barter system 

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts.... care to swap for some bananas? :bananasmi


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## Sean K (11 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Just heard it's now $1.5B - not hard to get angry over this , everybodys pal Rudd just throws OUR money to a regime that jails our citizens for 20 yeares on what could be a trumped up drugs charge and usesthe death penalty which we object to.
> 
> Rudd obviously subscribes to the Gareth Evens school of bowing and scraping to the Indonesians.
> 
> I would agree to this if they agreed to have *some respect for* and not *offend* us.



I agree, they only get the cash if they let Corby out, and dump the death penalty.

MrB for Foreign Minister!


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## inrodwetrust (11 December 2008)

What a short memory we all have (esp the media) ..... whatever happened to Howard's  $B+ grant to Indonesia after the Tsunami?? was that just a opportunistic media promise(probably) or what & where if any was actually given? I think a fair sum eg $100's m to Aceh, the rest was meant for various projects throughout Indo.

The help for Aceh was fair enough but I've never heard anything since about the rest of the promise. Anyone?

Even though the current $1B from Rudd is a loan....any bets on how much if any will be repaid? My bid is $100m if we're lucky .. the rest will be defaulted for one reason or another.... say in 5-10yrs...when the loan is a distant memory.

Although I acknowledge if used for its intended purpose successfully(& not Russian jets!), it would be a sensible move, at least for the the short term.

PS. Shapelle Corby may well be innocent, but wasn't the father & step brother apparently the guilty ones?(according to the various media reports) I say blame them for her situation!


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## MrBurns (11 December 2008)

kennas said:


> I agree, they only get the cash if they let Corby out, and dump the death penalty.
> 
> MrB for Foreign Minister!




errr.......... that's not what I said, a fair trial would have been nice and the death penalty for drug smuggling is not on, it's too easy to be framed and there's no understandable trial or justice system over there.

Our $1B is down the drain as far as I can see, there should have been some conditions but Rudd just dropped his pants and bent over and they talk about Howard crawing to Bush.


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## numbercruncher (11 December 2008)

You can hear the dodgy Indonesian officals now ....

" Those Aussies are dumb little fkers eh ? "

" sure are aye boss "

" Cmon jump in the lear jet lets go to Germany for the weekend and buy another Diamond encrusted Mercedes "


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## TheAbyss (11 December 2008)

Some wise words from yesteryear

The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, the public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.  People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.

Cicero - 55 B.C.

And the Roman Empire fell soon after these words were written...


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## Sean K (11 December 2008)

TheAbyss said:


> Some wise words from yesteryear
> 
> The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, the public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.  People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.
> 
> ...



And what have we learnt?

Humans are pretty bloody stupid!

Or, is that just selfish?
Or, short sighted?
Or, ???


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## MrBurns (11 December 2008)

kennas said:


> And what have we learnt?
> 
> Humans are pretty bloody stupid!
> 
> ...




The people who learned that lesson died, the next gereration had to learn it all over again and so it goes on just like here, crash in early 90's so what ? the now gereration didn't go through it didn't learn anything so they have to learn it all over again, it's just a circle. 
NOW if everyone lived for 200 years this crash may have been avoided because the ones that caused this weren't around for the earlier ones.


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## disarray (11 December 2008)

TheAbyss said:


> And the Roman Empire fell soon after these words were written...




actually the roman empire went on to become one of the most powerful empires in human history soon after these words were written. what did collapse soon after was the republic, replaced by a dictatorship. dictatorships get things done until the man in charge (or his successors) goes mad.

the human condition is nothing if not predictable.


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## Sean K (11 December 2008)

disarray said:


> actually the roman empire went on to become one of the most powerful empires in human history soon after these words were written. what did collapse soon after was the republic, replaced by a dictatorship. dictatorships get things done until the man in charge (or his successors) goes mad.
> 
> the human condition is nothing if not predictable.



Maybe 'soon after' in perspective is close enough.

You are right though, we'll go through all this again, I'm sure. 

And the 'War to end all wars', will some day be fought again. Actually, it was ... 

Wonder what will change us...


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## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

kennas said:


> Maybe 'soon after' in perspective is close enough.
> 
> You are right though, we'll go through all this again, I'm sure.
> 
> ...




A falling apple..?


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## Sean K (11 December 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> A falling apple..?



That happened too.

And that stupid woman Eve ate the bloody thing as well!

That caused some trouble.


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## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

kennas said:


> That happened too.
> 
> *And that [size=+1]stupid woman[/size] Eve ate the bloody thing as well*!
> 
> That caused some trouble.




[size=+2]*INCOMING!!*[/size] :hide:


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## arco (11 December 2008)

*Australia to prepare $5b loan for Indonesia*

The Jakarta Post   |  Wed, 12/10/2008 1:19 PM  |  National
The Australian government has expressed commitment to facilitate a US$5 billion standby loan to help Indonesia cope with the impact of the U.S.-led global liquidity crisis.

Australia's Prime Minister Kevin Rudd expressed the commitment at a press conference with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono after a bilateral meeting in Bali on Wednesday noon.

Rudd said that countries, particularly those in a same region, must cooperate in addressing the pressure from the global economic turmoil. As a good neighbor, it was natural for Australia to pledge such commitment, he said.

Yudhoyono said the loan from Australia would be ready whenever Indonesia needed additional capital to sustain economic growth and mitigate devastating impact from the economic woes.

He added that Indonesia had decided not to rely on IMF such as it did a decade ago during the Asian financial crisis. Indonesia, he said, would prefer to seek assistance from the World Bank, Asian Development Bank or traditional allies such as Japan, Australia and European Union.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/12/10/australia-prepare-5b-loan-indonesia.html


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## arco (11 December 2008)

.
_
There are reports the funds would be for infrastructure projects. Australia joined a group that extended a line of credit to Indonesia during the 1997-98 Asian financial crisis, but it was never drawn down. But there are questions over whether Indonesia really needs the loan._


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## numbercruncher (11 December 2008)

> Australia to prepare $5b loan for Indonesia





Diamond enrusted Mercs all round boss ?


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## gav (11 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Diamond enrusted Mercs all round boss ?




Merc's are for common folk, its rolls royce's all round!


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## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Diamond enrusted Mercs all round boss ?




*heehee*.

"We squeezed da Ozzies for $1Billion and they kowtowed.

We squeezed 'em further for $5Billion and they kowtowed.

Let's keep squeezin'! Say, $10Billion? "

*chuckle*


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## ZackW (11 December 2008)

ZackW said:


> $1bn? Never mind this poor soul then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I should have added the Aus-Indo political assessment which I found on the same site: International Politices and Schapelle Corby

That mentions the imortance of the Aus-Indo relationship to the WEST. I am sure that had a role too, with respect to this loan.

For Schapelle, IMHO Rudd is an absolute disgrace for not using this to get her out. A pre-requisite to help regimes like that one should be HUMAN RIGHTS for all Austalian citizens there.

She has hers ripped away via the show trial (research assessment). Lending them the money whilst this stands is a green light for more... and signals just where the human rights of Australians stands on Rudd's agenda. 

Think about it!


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## Wysiwyg (12 December 2008)

kennas said:


> If it gets to depression stage, there will be even more poor, hungry, young, impressionable people looking for something to do. It's already started in China. But not invasion by Indonesia, yet.




So a cesspool could develop given the necessary circumstances of :-

A) an insane dictator   x
B) a strong religious base   √
C) a powerful, well drilled army with large numbers and an endless supply of munitions (source, money)   x
D) an ample supply of food and clothing   x

Until  A) manifests things will be okay.imo.


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## Gundini (12 December 2008)

ZackW said:


> I should have added the Aus-Indo political assessment which I found on the same site: International Politices and Schapelle Corby
> 
> That mentions the imortance of the Aus-Indo relationship to the WEST. I am sure that had a role too, with respect to this loan.
> 
> ...




I feel very sad...

But to be honest they/we/our representitives, live in a big picture world. We are scared or the North and their pending invasion! Therefore, we bribe them to keep them on our side, so, when the mindset of these people comes to light, we shall be on good terms. 

How pathetic!


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## MrBurns (12 December 2008)

If they do try to invade Australia THATS when we will need the USA and i dont care if it's Bush or Obama I want to see those huge US warships move to our region - we will need a strong ally and Labor aren't as friendly as the Libs toward the USA. 

Ahhh what the hell Rudd will just bow very low and give them Qld anyway.


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## MrBurns (12 December 2008)

AND another thing I as a taxpayer also strongly object to this loan on the grounds that Rudd has an obligation to firstly follow Labor policy and isn't that that no Australian child shall be living in poverty ???

Or was that one forgotton when Hawke left the scene, pockets full of gold, for himself.

$1B would feed plenty of our own.


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## deadset (12 December 2008)

We've given them alot of additional bonus Billions on top of the normal amount we give them, they must think its funny.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> AND another thing I as a taxpayer also strongly object to this loan on the grounds that Rudd has an obligation to firstly follow Labor policy and isn't that that no Australian child shall be living in poverty ???
> 
> Or was that one forgotton when Hawke left the scene, pockets full of gold, for himself.
> 
> $1B would feed plenty of our own.




Burnsie mate, we are all citizens of the world and the Indos are not a bad bunch of people apart from their godbothering.

There are a fair few in Townsville at the uni, and from what I'm told and from the ones I've met they are decent people.

They pop out about 5 times a day to pray, no more than those going for a durry.

Its a poor country and a powerful one so being friends with them is wise and forward looking.

gg


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## MrBurns (12 December 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Burnsie mate, we are all citizens of the world and the Indos are not a bad bunch of people apart from their godbothering.
> 
> There are a fair few in Townsville at the uni, and from what I'm told and from the ones I've met they are decent people.
> 
> ...




I understand, I just give in to simplistic thinking sometimes, it makes you feel better.


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## Lancelot (12 December 2008)

At least they'll have some new banks to put the money in




> ANZ to open 10 more Indonesia branches
> 
> Posted Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:17pm AEDT
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/10/2443077.htm?section=business


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