# Suicides in this GFC



## matty2.0 (11 July 2009)

Everybody hear about the most recent suicide of a young Deutsche Bank trader in London because of his job?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6668043.ece

Sad really. Amazing how upset people can get over such trivial things. Weak. 

That's like 10 suicides/deaths related to the GFC that I can recall off the top of my head:

Adolf Merckle - German billionaire, suicide
David Kellerman - Freddie Mac CFO, suicide (hanging)
Kirk Stephenson - investor, suicide (jumped in front of a train)
Huibert Boumeester - ABN Amro CFO, apparent suicide
Ervin Anthony Lupoe -  shot and killed his wife and five young children, then took his own life (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/a-man-who-had-r.html)



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aJp2H_Axtn68 

_ July 8 (Bloomberg) -- Murders and suicides spike with unemployment, U.S. and European researchers said.

The scientists, who combed through almost four decades of European Union records, found that a 1 percent increase in joblessness brings about a 0.8 percent rise in suicide and murder rates. Government programs to help workers offer some protection, they wrote in the July 8 issue of The Lancet. _


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## weird (11 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Sad really. Amazing how upset people can get over such trivial things. Weak.
> [/I]




Weak is perhaps not the right word. Sad definitely is.

Important for everyone to have real friends, which includes family, that grounds oneself.

I was perhaps fortunate today and yesterday, with watching a bird drinking the nectar from an outside plant, that small thing had me buzzying  yesterday, and today.

However I did reflect on those plugged into an MP3 player, and those which just turned up to work or where ever without feeling such joy (whatever that could be), without seeing the wonders of nature or love ... I think everyone needs to take a step back.


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## MrBurns (11 July 2009)

Such is life...........


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## gordon2007 (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Amazing how upset people can get over such trivial things. Weak.
> [/I]




I think perhaps you could use a lesson in mental health. For most cases, to kill yourself is a result of depression. 

Depression is not a sign of weakness. Ted Turner suffers from severe mental health issues. Is he weak for donating 1 billion dollars? 

Depression is an illness on par with cancer, tb, parkinsons and a host of others. The problem with depression is that for decades, even centuries, it has had such a huge negative stigma associated with it. Typically, people see it as "weak", when in reality it is another one of mankinds horrible illnesses.


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## Julia (12 July 2009)

The two people close to me who committed suicide were anything but weak.

Imo they both had immense courage to do what they did.   

And there are simply some insoluble situations where suicide is a perfectly rational action, even in the absence of depression in any clinical sense.


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## shag (12 July 2009)

i agree julia. i've known many people who have unfortunately for certain reasons pulled the plug on things. not my peers but others.
and these people were extremely stong mentally. it takes strength to actually do it right and you don't get second chances.
one guy used drugs, but didn't have acess to quality products, so ended up brain dead and his parents had to pull the plug on him(life support).
we are just fed propoganda by the media in a vain attempt to reduce copy cat suicides etc.
in new zealand they have reporting restrictions etc, it doesn't work.
an open honest debate would be far better.

i've tried to add a tad more grammer but really can't get too enthused about it. point taken tho.


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## shag (12 July 2009)

gordon2007 said:


> I think perhaps you could use a lesson in mental health. For most cases, to kill yourself is a result of depression.
> 
> Depression is not a sign of weakness. Ted Turner suffers from severe mental health issues. Is he weak for donating 1 billion dollars?
> 
> Depression is an illness on par with cancer, tb, parkinsons and a host of others. The problem with depression is that for decades, even centuries, it has had such a huge negative stigma associated with it. Typically, people see it as "weak", when in reality it is another one of mankinds horrible illnesses.




i agree also, i had a very intelligent and motivated friend who got into a servely depressed state. i was too uneducated and pig headed to understand it at the time.
she was fortunate in the fact that she had many very good friends and clawed her way out of it. she undertook a further degree and now is a very good medical practitioner.
i just could not understand why she was unable to just kick her way out of the disease. since i've learnt from her experience and education.


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## Tink (12 July 2009)

weird said:


> Weak is perhaps not the right word. Sad definitely is.
> 
> Important for everyone to have real friends, which includes family, that grounds oneself.




Yep I agree Weird -- Support is a big thing

Unfortunately sometimes these people dont see beyond that one thing

Also agree with Gordon with Mental Health and depression.


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## matty2.0 (12 July 2009)

Well if you think coasting through life and taking pictures with all these pretty people and promoting your successes is what life is all about then you're ... or he's (Anjool) is wrong. 
You get one little setback or bump in the road and you go and commit suicide? 
You need setbacks in life to live life to it fullest. Overcoming bumps in the road is what builds character, that's what being human is all about. To chicken out and give in, that's cowardly. You just let all your naysayers win by doing that. 

To me, I sort of view it to a certain extent as survival of the fittest. We live in a capitalist society, the strong willed and healthiest rise to the top. Now you may have a disease or a disability, but that doesn't mean you should stop competing and doing your best. Even if you know you're gonna lose, you should at least fight to the very end and give it your best shot. At least you can say that you gave it everything you got, and lived your life, rather than taking the easy way out and quitting. 

If you're weak and unhealthy, well then try and get some help. Otherwise, so be it ... you become part of the rejected in our society. 

Survival of the fittest. Stay strong. This too shall pass. 
Despite all these nuclear weapons and problems in the world, I'm an optimist. To me optimism comes from some simple but important principles:

 - The ability to adapt to change: whether economic, financial, personal or social.
- Accept responsibility when things go wrong that are your fault, and don't blame others.
- And take comfort in the dynamism and drive of the human race. That human beings have the capacity, when it matters, to choose the right problems and apply workable solutions to them.* This is not guaranteed, but on the whole, and on average will prevail. 

RIP and Survival of the fittest.


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## white_goodman (12 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Such is life...........




who are you Ben Cousins


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## MRC & Co (12 July 2009)

'Adversity introduces a man to himself'. 

I don't know you, but I'm not sure you have experienced that yet Matty2.0.  Just a guess.


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## Julia (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Well if you think coasting through life and taking pictures with all these pretty people and promoting your successes is what life is all about then you're ... or he's (Anjool) is wrong.
> You get one little setback or bump in the road and you go and commit suicide?
> You need setbacks in life to live life to it fullest. Overcoming bumps in the road is what builds character, that's what being human is all about. To chicken out and give in, that's cowardly. You just let all your naysayers win by doing that.
> 
> ...




There is a vast chasm in your understanding of human beings and the myriad of situations that can beset them.

Clearly neither despair nor compassion have ever intruded on your existence.


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## Mr J (12 July 2009)

Matty, you can not judge these people unless you have been in their shoe, and felt how they felt. You may say big deal and belittle their situations, but that is irrelevant, as it is how these people felt in their situations that matters. I can't imagine how these people must have felt to feel ending their life was the solution, and I think unless you have been in that state of mind, you can't make informed comments on their decision. 

I also think it's silly to say that these people were weak and take the coward's way out. I imagine it takes guts to kill ourselves, as it goes against our natural instinct and it's the ultimate decisive action. No return. A coward would probably struggle to do something like that.


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## Knobby22 (12 July 2009)

Well I'm with Matty on this.
We are not talking suicide due to factors of misery caused  by sickness or mental health. 

We are talking of people committing suicide because of money and pride. To me this shows that rather than face their families and collegues, they would rather leave their children and spouse in the lurch at the point when they most need them. To me suicide in these circumstances is gutless and a betrayal of their loved ones. 

A caveat, I know we don't know their individual circumstances and maybe their was an argument for some of them.

Pity the poor person who found them, though.


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## matty2.0 (12 July 2009)

Capitalism needs strong willed people who see light at the end of the tunnel. 
We can only pull out of a deep recession if there are people out there who get out and keep perservering and working hard, starting their own businesses, believing that this too shall pass. The Depression lasted as long as it did b/c people just gave up hope looking for subsistence hand outs from the govt. You have to get up, and get out there and keep fighting. 

Just imagine ... if everyone gave up at the first sign of trouble? We'd have chaos and let socialism take over.


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## So_Cynical (12 July 2009)

Knobby22 said:


> Well I'm with Matty on this.
> We are not talking suicide due to factors of misery caused  by sickness or mental health.
> 
> We are talking of people committing suicide because of money and pride.




Wrong...while the money and pride are part of the equation, its prob more to do with 
the loss of identity and purpose in life...people are simple (even CFO's) and somewhat 
one dimensional...what these people lost was there sense of who they were and where 
they were going, there day to day normal life was gone. and gone forever.

I once knew a guy that drove a bulldozer, had done for 20 years...one day he fell of a 
log and couldn't drive his bulldozer any more, and due to his injury would never again...he 
got a big insurance payout, owned his own home, had a great wife and kids.

But he lost is identity and sense of purpose...got depressed and took his own life...some 
people find it very very hard to start over...just look at the entertainment industry, its 
littered with simple people that couldn't cope with simple change.

matty2.0...u need to expand your analytic skills.


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## matty2.0 (12 July 2009)

So_Cynical said:


> matty2.0...u need to expand your analytic skills.




lol ... I love it when people get personal. 
You'd probably jump out the window too wouldn't you? With your "loss of identity" ... lol ... whatever that means. Boo hoo ... cry me a river.

Survival of the fittest mate. Don't make excuses and suck your thumb. If you don't want to compete and fight, well then jump.


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## Buckeroo (12 July 2009)

I'm neutral here, I think its up to the individual in how he/she reacts to their own circumstances & environment. 

But its a little disturbing with the number of people who have known suicidal people & understand why they commit suicide. Do people agree that sometimes, this can be the only way out?

Wow!

Anyway, for what its worth, in my experience, life goes from one age to another. Every 5 to 10 years, you become somewhat different in attitude because your priorities change. What depresses or stresses you out in your 20's will not be an issue in your 30's. So if you find the courage to top yourself, you may be missing out on the best years of your life.

Cheers


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## JTLP (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Well if you think coasting through life and taking pictures with all these pretty people and promoting your successes is what life is all about then you're ... or he's (Anjool) is wrong.
> You get one little setback or bump in the road and you go and commit suicide?
> You need setbacks in life to live life to it fullest. Overcoming bumps in the road is what builds character, that's what being human is all about. To chicken out and give in, that's cowardly. You just let all your naysayers win by doing that.
> 
> ...






matty2.0 said:


> Capitalism needs strong willed people who see light at the end of the tunnel.
> We can only pull out of a deep recession if there are people out there who get out and keep perservering and working hard, starting their own businesses, believing that this too shall pass. The Depression lasted as long as it did b/c people just gave up hope looking for subsistence hand outs from the govt. You have to get up, and get out there and keep fighting.
> 
> Just imagine ... if everyone gave up at the first sign of trouble? We'd have chaos and let socialism take over.






matty2.0 said:


> lol ... I love it when people get personal.
> You'd probably jump out the window too wouldn't you? With your "loss of identity" ... lol ... whatever that means. Boo hoo ... cry me a river.
> 
> Survival of the fittest mate. Don't make excuses and suck your thumb. If you don't want to compete and fight, well then jump.




You are such a twat. Seriously. No lol.

I just love how you walk in here and proclaim that people who commit suicide are 'weak' and you need set backs in life to live life to the fullest...classic lines from a clearly educated person such as yourself.

Here are a couple of interesting scenario's I would like you to ponder...and then see if suicide is weak:

- African children left to fend for themselves after their parents have passed away. A 13 year old girl looking after her siblings as well as working for peanuts...i'm sure this setback in her life is setting her up for Tattslotto!

- Soldiers who fight wars in foreign nations and see such violence/bloodshed and horrific scenes that they just can't live with the eternal nightmares. Kennas once wrote of soldiers witnessing bodies of children and women dumped on top of each other (absolute tragedy) in Rwanda. These unfortunate soldiers who are serving a purpose to protect the innocent in these war torn nations witness these scenes...but i'm sure they would be weak if they decided to end their own lives to rid themselves of the pain and suffering of seeing and committing such acts

- Paramedics - They apparently have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. I'm sure pulling people from cars, trying to restart the hearts of cardiac arrest victims whilst pleas, tears and screams of onlookers swirl around you, trying to jump start a person who has overdosed at such a young age and was probably born with potential...i'm sure these are all minor bumps...set backs as you would say...in their lives for bigger things!

This is such a minute version of scenario's I can think of...but all things where I'm sure the people in those situations would not be frowned upon in society for committing suicide and as a weak..rather it would be viewed as a tragedy that these fantastic people who are just trying to live normal lives had to be exposed to such heartache situations that they had to make a choice on whether to continue with their nightmare or be at eternal peace with their souls...


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## waza1960 (12 July 2009)

I have a belief about suicide that some people can go through adversity and thrug of the most horrible sights, experiences etc. where as with others these things slowly accumulate until they reach breaking point.


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## matty2.0 (12 July 2009)

JTLP said:


> You are such a twat. Seriously. No lol.
> 
> I just love how you walk in here and proclaim that people who commit suicide are 'weak' and you need set backs in life to live life to the fullest...classic lines from a clearly educated person such as yourself.
> 
> ...




It's not a perfect world. Deal with it. You can live or you can jump. No one is stopping you from stepping off that cliff, if you believe in armageddon. 
In any event, I'm a big optimist. There is always something to live for, no matter how despairing your situation is. I would never give in without a fight. 

Maybe I have a personal disease called "cheerfulness".  

Btw ... it's really easy to see dead bodies and live murders/decapitations these days on the internet. Especially if it's anything related to the middle east. I can post you a link if you want.


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## So_Cynical (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> lol ... I love it when people get personal.
> You'd probably jump out the window too wouldn't you? With your "loss of identity" ... lol ... whatever that means. Boo hoo ... cry me a river.
> 
> Survival of the fittest mate. Don't make excuses and suck your thumb. If you don't want to compete and fight, well then jump.




I handle change well....don't identify myself as anything in particular, and 
never fight over anything, i do however feel the need to understand.


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## knocker (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Everybody hear about the most recent suicide of a young Deutsche Bank trader in London because of his job?
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6668043.ece
> 
> Sad really. Amazing how upset people can get over such trivial things. Weak.
> ...




there is nothing wrong with that. the world is a better place without them.


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## knocker (12 July 2009)

JTLP said:


> You are such a twat. Seriously. No lol.
> 
> I just love how you walk in here and proclaim that people who commit suicide are 'weak' and you need set backs in life to live life to the fullest...classic lines from a clearly educated person such as yourself.
> 
> ...




Um. No one forces a soldier to be a soldier, not in Australia anyway. No one forces a paramedic to be one. So what is your point? I am sure these people are made well aware of what they will encounter in their working life.


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## Aussiest (12 July 2009)

Knobby22 said:


> We are talking of people committing suicide because of money and pride.




I think in the case of the GFC and people committing suicide that they were more likely to do it because they lost touch with who they were. Money became their God, rather than happiness and fun. 

As another poster alluded to, if you have real friends and family, then you are less likely to feel alienated. These people must have really put their eggs into one basket. Bit of a mistake imo.


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## MRC & Co (12 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> There is always something to live for, *no matter how despairing your situation is. I would never give in without a fight.*




How do you know?  What is the hardest fight you have ever fought?

But you are admitting, after a fight, you may give in?


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## Tink (12 July 2009)

knocker said:


> I am sure these people are made well aware of what they will encounter in their working life.




Being made well aware and experiencing it are 2 different things..


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## knocker (12 July 2009)

Tink said:


> Being made well aware and experiencing it are 2 different things..




True, but it is a choice an individual makes. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest admiration for ambos and the job they do. It takes a very tough person to do it.


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## Tink (12 July 2009)

Sorry Knocker, I dont see it like you do

Just because they are suppose to know what they are in for and end up needing help, does not make them weak

Saying only tough people should do the job is one of the reasons that people do commit suicide as they feel they have failed 

They are human..

Some can handle it, some may not

We shouldnt be sitting on the side lines judging..


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## knocker (12 July 2009)

Tink said:


> Sorry Knocker, I dont see it like you do
> 
> Just because they are suppose to know what they are in for and end up needing help, does not make them weak
> 
> ...




What? I never mention weak. That was someone else. What's your problem? I am saying that perhaps they should never have been in the job to begin with. No job/career is worth killing yourself for.


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## kingcarmleo (13 July 2009)

For every person that commits suicide there is another in a worse situation not willing to give up their gift of life.


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## jonnycage (13 July 2009)

unfortunately if you had seen or had someone in that situation, you may
have a little more compassion.  its easy to say 'get over it',  much different
to be in some one elses shoes.

its the saddest thing when someone is so jaded that they cant see through it,  and whoever said it is right, its a disease,  you cant just snap out of it.

jc


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## shag (13 July 2009)

jonnycage said:


> unfortunately if you had seen or had someone in that situation, you may
> have a little more compassion.  its easy to say 'get over it',  much different
> to be in some one elses shoes.
> 
> ...



that pretty much sums it up very succinctly. some people get in such a hole, they just cannot see out of it. the irrational becomes becomes rational to them, if this makes sense to anyone.
just talk to any mental health expert and they will educate anyone who doesnt understand it.  
i was a bit like some posters here untill i gained some education on it.
you find a lot of very sucessful people suffer from it but cope, if you choose to look.
the brain is complex and not always logical. it's still very a vauge area of the anatomy knowledgewise. talk to a brain surgeon.


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## Grinder (13 July 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> It's not a perfect world. Deal with it. You can live or you can jump. No one is stopping you from stepping off that cliff, if you believe in armageddon.
> In any event, I'm a big optimist. There is always something to live for, no matter how despairing your situation is. I would never give in without a fight.
> 
> Maybe I have a personal disease called "cheerfulness".
> ...




I don't know your situation, so I can't comment. You might have gone through some pretty tough stuff against the odds & come up smelling of roses, or who knows you may be a young middle class Gen Y male who has'nt experienced ****. Either way, think before you speak as you don't what others reading have been through.


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## Agentm (13 July 2009)

jonnycage said:


> unfortunately if you had seen or had someone in that situation, you may
> have a little more compassion.  its easy to say 'get over it',  much different
> to be in some one elses shoes.
> 
> ...




suicide is an experience that i hope no one needs to have. the pain does not end for the family and friends of a victim.

the intensity of sadness and guilt family members feel, the sadness felt by children missing their parent or parents, the sadness of parents missing their most cherished child.. its beyond words how sad and difficult that life is when suicide impacts into your life.  

having no compassion and understanding of it like the knobs on this thread is just a pity for them, the ability for the brain to understand and feel compassion for a fellow human is what makes our species unique, being insular and narrow minded is just an age issue, frontal lobe development may be retarded in their brain or they are simply too immature  to  have compassion as part of their character development.. it will pass once lifes experiences and growth reaches them..

some times the body gets a disease and dies, cancer has taken many of my friends and family.

sometimes the organs themselves are weak, i have had a very good friend of mine just die next to me during a sporting event.. 

as for suicide, i have seen that one visit very close to home.

i thoroughly endorse and strongly recommend all support the great work of jeff and beyond blue

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?

dont let the naysayers win this one, anyone needing help or support please dont feel your weak, thats not what depression is about, its not a weakness at all.. there are many out in the community including me who will bend over backwards to help you in any way shape or form..

there are many survivors of depression, and i ask anyone who sees a change in a friend or family member, and who thinks things are turning in peoples lives, they are not weak, and they may not in themselves even know they have depression,, guide them help them and love them and support them..

get familiar with beyondblue, with depression and help yourself or anyone who you think is experiencing depression..


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## shag (13 July 2009)

heres a good link
http://www.geocities.com/coverbridge2k/artsci/famous_people_depression.html
i was trying to find the very sucessful actor that i supprisingly found out one day, suffered from severe depression.
imagine the world without some of these.

note Stephen Hawking, physicist, arguably with one of the most intelligent minds around presently, certainly in his field anyway.


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## Agentm (13 July 2009)

Things to remember
• Depression in men is common and treatable.
• Help is available.
• With the right treatment, most people recover
from depression.
• It’s important to seek help early – the sooner
the better.
• Depression is an illness, not a weakness and
men shouldn’t feel ashamed to seek help.


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## jonnycage (13 July 2009)

great post.

its the saddest thing to watch someone very close go from an out-going,
happy person,  to closed in with no where to go.  there is no turning back
once that final decison is made, thats the worst part.


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## Windza (13 July 2009)

Interesting thread - I can see both sides of the coin in relation to the 'weak' vs. 'helpless' theme that is emerging but ultimately I believe that we're all individually responsible for who we are... 
The people in life who invoke our sympathy because of dire circumstances still have a choice irrespective of how difficult we believe their situation to be.

It is these choices that dictate what we make of our lives and to this extent, those who choose to give up (for whatever reason) have succumbed to their own weaknesses or inability...  as callous as it seems, it's really not debatable. 

The opposing side of the coin that supports this is those who do come through some inconceivable hardships... they simply are stronger people and made a choice to live.

Unless we've been there ourselves, I don't believe anyone can ever know their true physical or emotional limits in life and consequently can never be truly confident about how we 'would have' handled things in 'their situation'.  We can only ever hope that we'll maintain enough strength if we go through rough patches.

The only thing certain in hard times is that suicide will never improve your life (or others)...


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## Julia (13 July 2009)

Windza said:


> The only thing certain in hard times is that suicide will never improve your life (or others)...



I don't think that's certain at all.  Neither do I see that it necessarily relates to hard times if we're talking suicide in a general sense.

If someone is experiencing intense suffering from whatever source, suicide can represent to them the only way of that pain.

That's what I meant when I said earlier that suicide imo can be a quite rational act.   (As distinct from the hypothesis that anyone committing suicide is ipso facto insane.)


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## MrBurns (13 July 2009)

Suicide in the main happens as a result of depression.
Depresion is an illness, nothing to do with strong or weak, it's an illness so all the posters in here who think it somehow relates to weakness dont know anything about it and should shut up.
Some of our greatest sportmen and women have been struck down by it and they aren't weak not to mention countless other examples.


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## awg (13 July 2009)

I would like to make a distinction, (not sure Matt2 is making it tho)

depression is an illness that benefits by treatment

most suicide cases are depressed, so this is a tragic outcome.

not confronting ones medical issues is "weak"

however, IMO, suicide itself is in most cases an act of "weakness" as such, as the individual has lost the courage and determination to keep fighting, and the compassion for themselves and those they leave behind.

I believe persons with suicidal ideation need to keep the concept of courage firmly fixed at the forefront of their minds..yes consider the soldiers, refugees and sick people who keep on going.

I do consider, however, there are some situations where the ending of ones life does not necessarily classify as "weakness", these would include cases of terminal or painful illness ( including severe mental illness), and even some cases of suicide due to dishonour, as is more common in some other societies than ours.


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## Agentm (13 July 2009)

awg said:


> I would like to make a distinction, (not sure Matt2 is making it tho)
> 
> depression is an illness that benefits by treatment
> 
> ...




please, 

anyone who does not understand mental health, mental illness or suicide and depression please do not associate the words weakness with suicide..

again please read the extensive research and countless pages of information on the subject..

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?


http://www.suicide.org/suicide-is-not-an-act-of-weakness.html

Suicide is NOT an Act of Weakness;
and People Who Die by Suicide are Not Weak

by Kevin Caruso

Would anyone say that dying from cancer is an act of weakness? And that people who die from cancer are weak?

No.

Would anyone say that dying from heart disease is an act of weakness? And that people who die from heart disease are weak?

No.

Would anyone say that dying from a stroke is an act of weakness? And that people who die from a stroke are weak?

No.

Indeed, it would be idiotic to say that dying from cancer, heart disease, or a stroke is an act of “weakness.” Such an utterance would represent a level of unparalleled ignorance and insensitivity, to say the least.

Yet some people will say that suicide is an act of weakness and that people who die by suicide are weak – but this statement is as ignorant, insensitive, and incorrect as the statements about cancer, heart disease, and stroke.

Over 90 percent of the people who die by suicide have a mental illness at the time of their death and thus they are not thinking clearly, and they usually are experiencing excruciating emotional pain.

They are not weak; they are ill – just like people with cancer are ill. So the word “weakness” should never be uttered in association with suicide.

Clinical depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses can cause people to do many things that they would never do if they were not ill, including die by suicide. So “weakness” has NOTHING to do with suicide.

Also, using an incorrect word like “weakness” perpetuates the strong stigma associated with suicide. And uttering such an ignorant word in association with suicide is extremely disrespectful and hurtful to suicide survivors.

Suicide is not an act of weakness; it is an act stemming from a serious mental illness, and the words we use in association with suicide should reflect that fact.


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## awg (13 July 2009)

Agentm said:


> please,
> 
> anyone who does not understand mental health, mental illness or suicide and depression please do not associate the words weakness with suicide..
> 
> ...




I know an awful lot about these topics

I stand by my opinion.

I have no wish to offend, far from it.


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## MrBurns (13 July 2009)

awg said:


> I would like to make a distinction, (not sure Matt2 is making it tho)
> 
> depression is an illness that benefits by treatment
> 
> ...




What a a load of crap


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## Agentm (13 July 2009)

awg said:


> I know an awful lot about these topics
> 
> I stand by my opinion.
> 
> I have no wish to offend, far from it.




please dont think i am offended, the quotes you use are form the words posted by:

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-is-no...-weakness.html

Suicide is NOT an Act of Weakness;
and People Who Die by Suicide are Not Weak

by Kevin Caruso



awg, your not demonstrating any real understanding despite your "knowing an awful lot about these topics", and your absolutely 100% wrong about depression and suicide and your perception on weakness.. its an illness and its treatable and all must be done to eliminate the labels you and many put upon victims and survivors of depression and suicide and many forms of mental illness. there is no weakness in any of it..

if you understood mental illness and understood suicide as you say you know a lot about, then you could not stand by those words, they are simply 100% incorrect

again, i implore everyone to read the great insights and research from those who do understand and work closely with depression and suicide, and dont believe in any way the rubbish awg posts that depression suicide or mental illness is in any way a weakness..  


http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?


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## awg (13 July 2009)

awg said:


> depression is an illness that benefits by treatment
> 
> most suicide cases are depressed, so this is a tragic outcome.
> 
> not confronting ones medical issues is "weak"




I am curious what method is suggested then to assist individuals at risk of suicide?

other than medication

What I am saying is that failure to address the full implications of any medical condition is unwise.

In the instance of a mentally ill person, deemed to be at risk of suicide, this risk should be addressed, so the question then becomes how to do this in therapy, or whatever other means.

note my use of quotation marks to indicate the often perceived meanings


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## Julia (13 July 2009)

awg said:


> I would like to make a distinction, (not sure Matt2 is making it tho)
> 
> depression is an illness that benefits by treatment
> 
> ...



There are people who have "confronted their medical issues" as you put it, have tried multiple treatments, and still don't want to continue living.
I don't see why anyone else should interfere with their right to decide to die.
There's an assumption that those who loved the person who took their life cannot understand such an action and are devastated by it.

As someone who has had two close relatives kill themselves, my only regret was that they had to end their lives in such a painful and lonely way.
Had I not known I'd have gone to jail for assisting them both as they requested for so long, I'd have happily done anything I could to ease their way out.





> however, IMO, suicide itself is in most cases an act of "weakness" as such, as the individual has lost the courage and determination to keep fighting, and the compassion for themselves and those they leave behind.



Rubbish.





> I believe persons with suicidal ideation need to keep the concept of courage firmly fixed at the forefront of their minds..yes consider the soldiers, refugees and sick people who keep on going.



Why should you (or anyone else with a similar view) dictate to any other human being what they should or should not have to endure?
How do you know they haven't already demonstrated extraordinary courage and stoicism over a long period of time.

I'm utterly sick of people making judgements on others when they have absolutely no bloody idea of what constituted their lives or suffering.





> I do consider, however, there are some situations where the ending of ones life does not necessarily classify as "weakness", these would include cases of terminal or painful illness ( including severe mental illness), and even some cases of suicide due to dishonour, as is more common in some other societies than ours.



This is in contradiction to what you have previously said.  Why shouldn't these people similarly be demonstrating the sort of 'courage' you demanded earlier?


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## MRC & Co (13 July 2009)

I wonder how many go to their petty jobs which they hate, get pizzed on by an insecure boss and then act tough on an internet.  

I see that as weak.

Chronic illness is in an entire different league, one which unless experienced, could not be understood.


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## awg (13 July 2009)

My interest in this thread was to explore what causes/prevents suicide, in most ( but not all) cases an impulsive tragic event.

How to establish a mindset that is resistant in vulnerable individuals.

I dont dispute that suicide/euthanasia is a reasoned outcome in some instances, as I stated.

I state my opinions in a public forum, I dont wish to force them on anyone, or denigrate others opinion.

The majority of suicide cases I have experience with left behind devastated spouse and children, and were very much unnecessary


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## white_crane (13 July 2009)

Wow. There are some really ignorant people on this thread.  I really hope that they enjoy a full and happy life.


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## trainspotter (13 July 2009)

Reading through this thread made me want to commit a random act of kindness. 

*HUGS* to the whole room.


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## GumbyLearner (13 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Suicide in the main happens as a result of depression.
> Depresion is an illness, nothing to do with strong or weak, it's an illness so all the posters in here who think it somehow relates to weakness dont know anything about it and should shut up.
> Some of our greatest sportmen and women have been struck down by it and they aren't weak not to mention countless other examples.




Yes I agree Mr.Burns

It's an illness and the strength to overcome it comes from within. 

There is a lot of meaning in this song!


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