# When will Germany be forgiven?



## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

I'm not German or Jewish but I've been thinking for a while that all Germans are tainted with the sins of their forefathers and the stigma shows no signs of abating.

How long will this go on, when will German youth not be tarnished with the sins of Hitler and the 3rd Reich ?

I can't see an end to it.


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## wayneL (25 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



MrBurns said:


> I'm not German or Jewish but I've been thinking for a while that all Germans are tainted with the sins of their forefathers and the stigma shows no signs of abating.
> 
> How long will this go on, when will German youth not be tarnished with the sins of Hitler and the 3rd Reich ?
> 
> I can't see an end to it.




Various other groups get too much mileage out of it.

But fwiw, in my social circle (which is mainly people with an interest in equestrian sport), Germans are the gurus and held in high esteem. Hitler is a non-issue.


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## springhill (25 September 2009)

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MrBurns said:


> I'm not German or Jewish but I've been thinking for a while that all Germans are tainted with the sins of their forefathers and the stigma shows no signs of abating.
> 
> How long will this go on, when will German youth not be tarnished with the sins of Hitler and the 3rd Reich ?
> 
> I can't see an end to it.




Are they? I've met heaps of young Germans and i have to say they are amongst the nicest & most genuine of all.
The last word that would've come to mind is Nazi.

What's brought this topic up?


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

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wayneL said:


> Various other groups get too much mileage out of it.
> 
> But fwiw, in my social circle (which is mainly people with an interest in equestrian sport), Germans are the gurus and held in high esteem. Hitler is a non-issue.




Yes and I drive one of their superb automobiles, no doubt about their talent or ability but how would you like to be German and see one of the zillions of TV shows on Hitler and the Holocaust that air regularly on TV, are they mentally divorsed from that ?


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## white_goodman (25 September 2009)

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I like Germans, gotta admire a race/country willing to go long and aim for world domination, shame that their stop loss got hit...

If I could be any nationality besides Aussie itd be German (serious)


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

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springhill said:


> Are they? I've met heaps of young Germans and i have to say they are amongst the nicest & most genuine of all.
> The last word that would've come to mind is Nazi.
> 
> What's brought this topic up?




I agree I've nothing against Germans personally.

I posted this because I was watching SBS and another doco on the Holocaust was on and I wondered what effect does this have on the current generation of Germans?


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## sam76 (25 September 2009)

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I think the 'official' move on from the war was during the 50th anniversary


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## greggy (25 September 2009)

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MrBurns said:


> Yes and I drive one of their superb automobiles, no doubt about their talent or ability but how would you like to be German and see one of the zillions of TV shows on Hitler and the Holocaust that air regularly on TV, are they mentally divorsed from that ?



Wrong Mr Burns.  Only Smithers has ever driven your car..Maybe its time to "release the hounds".  
I'm sorry to say that this is an inflammatory topic...As Basil said in Fawlty Towers "whatever you do don't mention the war..I might have said it once but I think I might have got away with it"..Time to move forward I reckon.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

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sam76 said:


> I think the 'official' move on from the war was during the 50th anniversary




Well thats good.

I was at Pearl Harbor recently at the memorial of the sinking of the USS Arizona, where 1100 US servicemen died.

The Japanese were there taking their happy snaps, it was astounding in it's irony, that they could do that knowing their forefathers had possibly been the pilots who did it.

I guess the new generation just move on ?


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

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greggy said:


> I'm sorry to say that this is an inflammatory topic....




Perhaps when discussed by fools but there are non in here


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## doctorj (25 September 2009)

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Forgiven, but never forgotten. 
Not that I blame Germans (particularly the younger generations that were not even around), but I think it's important to remeber these things to limit the chances of them happening ever again.

If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.


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## greggy (25 September 2009)

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MrBurns said:


> Perhaps when discussed by fools but there are non in here



Don't you mean "none" not non. D'oh!


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



greggy said:


> Don't you mean "none" not non. D'oh!




I dont take spelling lessons from ducks


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## cuttlefish (25 September 2009)

Maybe he meant "nein".


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



doctorj said:


> Forgiven, but never forgotten.
> Not that I blame Germans (particularly the younger generations that were not even around), but I think it's important to remeber these things to limit the chances of them happening ever again.
> 
> If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.




It's a conflict really, how do you keep the memory alive without sentencing all future generations to bear the guilt.

Would be good to hear from some Germans on this.


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## cuttlefish (25 September 2009)

I think that the younger generation has moved on from it, but are aware of the history, the corresponding guilt/reaction/introspection that it has inspired has infused itself into their culture and made for quite a positive people.


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## Wysiwyg (25 September 2009)

Manipulating persons and groups via guilt/indebtedness does happen and disappointingly so.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> I think that the younger generation has moved on from it, but are aware of the history, the corresponding guilt/reaction/introspection that it has inspired has infused itself into their culture and made for quite a positive people.




Interesting perspective, you put some thought into that, makes sense.


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## greggy (25 September 2009)

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MrBurns said:


> It's a conflict really, how do you keep the memory alive without sentencing all future generations to bear the guilt.
> 
> Would be good to hear from some Germans on this.



Seriously though my grandfather never liked Germans after they destroyed his house during World War 2, payback I suppose for supporting the partisans. Also, in the next village everyone (men, women and children) that the Nazis could find were herded into the local church only to be razed completely to the ground. When I visited that part back in the 80s the site was left as a memorial. 
As for the younger generations I think theres no hatred against them...War criminals perhaps but no one else.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

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greggy said:


> Seriously though my grandfather never liked Germans after they destroyed his house during World War 2, payback I suppose for supporting the partisans. Also, in the next village everyone (men, women and children) that the Nazis could find were herded into the local church only to be razed completely to the ground. When I visited that part back in the 80s the site was left as a memorial.
> As for the younger generations I think theres no hatred against them...War criminals perhaps but no one else.




I also remember Bruce Ruxton head of the RSL for many years could never forgive the Japanese after what he saw them do to Aussies in WW11 but subsequent generations get over it, they have to.


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## greggy (25 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



MrBurns said:


> I also remember Bruce Ruxton head of the RSL for many years could never forgive the Japanese after what he saw them do to Aussies in WW11 but subsequent generations get over it, they have to.




Right on Mr Burns.  I can understand the feelings of those who have been affected by the scavages of war. Future generations have moved on.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

How would we feel as Australians if our forefathers had tried to exterminate a race of people or had been a cruel aggressor in war, not a respondent but the aggressor.

Wonder how we would wear it now ?


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## Uncle Barry (25 September 2009)

Mr Burns,
what is your real problem, 
we, (not my lot) well the British who came here first, tried their best with the TASSIE Blacks to totally wipe them out, almost did.

Don't hear them crying forever.


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## overit (25 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> How would we feel as Australians if our forefathers had tried to exterminate a race of people or had been a cruel aggressor in war, not a respondent but the aggressor.
> 
> Wonder how we would wear it now ?




Didnt we wipe out a heap of aboriginals here in our very own australia. Not many civilisations without a claim to some form of atrocity against their fellow man I would think.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Mr Burns,
> what is your real problem,
> we, (not my lot) well the British who came here first, tried their best with the TASSIE Blacks to totally wipe them out, almost did.
> 
> Don't hear them crying forever.




I dont have a problem Unc but I think you just opened a problem of your own.

I could answer that but let's stay on topic.


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## hijk (25 September 2009)

The Germans I know don't identify with the nazi's at all, they're from a completely different era.  Australians also have a rich history of genocide but most aussies seem pretty proud of their country.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

overit said:


> Didnt we wipe out a heap of aboriginals here in our very own australia. Not many civilisations without a claim to some form of atrocity against their fellow man I would think.




Yes we did but that was in another time way before modern times, in those days they thought Aboriginals weren't actually human, cant compare that to what this is about.


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## springhill (25 September 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Mr Burns,
> what is your real problem,
> we, (not my lot) well the British who came here first, tried their best with the TASSIE Blacks to totally wipe them out, almost did.
> 
> *Don't hear them crying forever*.




Speechless.....

:topic, sorry, back to the Germans.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

springhill said:


> Speechless.....
> 
> :topic, sorry, back to the Germans.




Unless this thread is kept on track it may as well be closed.

Reminder - 

This is about how the current generation cope with the sins of their forefathers.

Is it an issue ?


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## Stan 101 (25 September 2009)

Mr Burns, 

there may be some synergies between the Nazi campaign and the British colonists attacking indigenous Australians.

Yes it was of another time though some concepts ring true in both arenas. There was a belief of superiority within the perpetrators. Both the Nazis and the Colonists belived they were doing the right think in their plans and making a better place.

As for the Germany today, well from a tourist point of view it was a forward thinking, laid back, and chic. There are so many things around Germany to remind people to not forget.

But the few locals and travellers I've spoken to about this topic are resilient not only about the war but also the wall.  

cheers,


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## Gordon Gekko (25 September 2009)

The stigma must certainly be something that you as a German would have to get used to. Back then when it was at it's peak everyone new what was going on in Germany, parents, teachers, everyone!
But what about Russia under Stalin or China under Mao, millions lost there lives. Or in the here and now people don't have access to clean water or enough food to eat. The point is we know about it and we live our lives oblivious to it or choose to ignore it. Are we any different to the Germans then? In 50 years from now will the children look back on us and think of us any different then the Germans? I mean we are not putting people in death camps but we are standing by while people are suffering?
I mean I got a world vision boy named Lucky in South Africa through world vision but wooppee ding dong, is that going to change the world?
Ive been lucky enough to have met lots of Germans and I think they are great. What happened is always something in the back of my mind but I never had the balls to ask there opinion on the subject or maybe I thought it was not nice to bring it up.
But I would love to sit down and have a couple of drinks and discuss it with the next German I meet.


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## springhill (25 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Unless this thread is kept on track it may as well be closed.
> 
> Reminder -
> 
> ...




Seems it's the people who had the sins committed *against* their forefathers, rather than the ones whose own forefathers committed them, are the ones who are struggling generations down the track.


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## Calliope (25 September 2009)

Their women and their beer make up for everything.


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## Gordon Gekko (25 September 2009)

Calliope said:


> Their women and their beer make up for everything.






Yes indeed!!!

I'm going to have to go do Germany myself to investigate this in more detail!


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## So_Cynical (25 September 2009)

I must admit that i have a bit of a cringe when the German politicians or the western media go down the quilt road...the same sorta cringe i feel when a high profile Aussie does something cringeworthy.

The Germans are very nice people and the past, really is the past...especially when its over 2 generations ago....ya also have to consider that main stream opinion is so far of base as to the blame for the events of WW2 etc.

There are just so many if's with WW2..it could of went so many ways.


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## CAB SAV (25 September 2009)

Forgiven. Not me. Still Bitter & twisted. Never met Grandfather Felix who was forced with every male aged 16 & over to march into woods oudside town (apprpx 100 miles south of Moscow) ordered to dig a long trench then machine gunned into it & covered over with dirt which still moved for hours till all dead. Rest of family survived concentration/work camps. Have many stories you would not believe or want to hear. Over 20 million Russians killed.


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## doctorj (25 September 2009)

Calliope said:


> Their women and their beer make up for everything.



There was beer in that photo?  All I saw are...


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## springhill (25 September 2009)

doctorj said:


> There was beer in that photo?  All I saw are...




Jugs????


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

CAB SAV said:


> Forgiven. Not me. Still Bitter & twisted. Never met Grandfather Felix who was forced with every male aged 16 & over to march into woods oudside town (apprpx 100 miles south of Moscow) ordered to dig a long trench then machine gunned into it & covered over with dirt which still moved for hours till all dead. Rest of family survived concentration/work camps. Have many stories you would not believe or want to hear. Over 20 million Russians killed.




Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
My history isnt all that good.


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## doctorj (25 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
> My history isnt all that good.



Google Stalingrad.

In fairness, the number of Russian deaths was probably almost as much to do with Russia as it was with Germany.  Not to mention, if it wasn't for Russia's approach to Poland, it may never have started.


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## johnnyg (25 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*

Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle. 

Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.


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## CAB SAV (25 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
> My history isnt all that good.




Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

doctorj said:


> Google Stalingrad.
> 
> In fairness, the number of Russian deaths was probably almost as much to do with Russia as it was with Germany.  Not to mention, if it wasn't for Russia's approach to Poland, it may never have started.




I admire people who have an interest in history, it's a failing of mine.


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## GumbyLearner (25 September 2009)

CAB SAV said:


> Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.




Millions of Ukrainians too!


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## MrBurns (25 September 2009)

CAB SAV said:


> Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.




Now that is disappointing.......

I know that sounds like a politicians major understatement but there's no words to say what I really want to say.......


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## TabJockey (25 September 2009)

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johnnyg said:


> Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle.
> 
> Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.




You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?


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## So_Cynical (26 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
> My history isnt all that good.




Yep they sure were...but lets not talk about the katyn forest massacre where the russians murdered about 22000 Polish military officers, cops and intellectuals etc...all in cold blood, killed execution style same as what the nazis did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre


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## johnnyg (26 September 2009)

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TabJockey said:


> You realize of coarse that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?




Yes, but that doesn't mean that they supported the choices made by Mussolini.  You can't tarnish people with the same brush, which is ultimately the point that Mr B is making at the start of this thread.


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## Nyden (26 September 2009)

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TabJockey said:


> You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?




The Axis of Evil ... I believe you're thinking more modern day 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil

Even now, for Bush to say those countries are evil is just insane. War is always a matter of dates, and perspective. One mans reason to kill another man is rarely any better.


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## Fishbulb (26 September 2009)

Germany's just a little sensitive about the whole thing. They were forgiven ages ago. Just don't mention the war and you'll be fine.


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## Tink (26 September 2009)

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doctorj said:


> *Forgiven, but never forgotten. *
> 
> Not that I blame Germans (particularly the younger generations that were not even around), but I think it's important to remeber these things to limit the chances of them happening ever again.
> 
> If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.




Well said Doctorj

I agree that History should never be forgotten, I say that all the time.. It doesnt mean that we blame the people now for what happened in the past..

I know a few Germans and even lived there for a while, beautiful place and lovely people : )


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

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johnnyg said:


> Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle.
> 
> Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.




Vets seem to vary widely in their opinions of their enemy. Some truly hate them, while others question why they were fighting each other, noting that on another day they may have been sharing a beer.



			
				MrBurns said:
			
		

> Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?




The Germans invaded and captured most of the European part of the USSR. The Eastern front was a meat-grinder (the Allies had an easy time by comparison) and there were many attrocities on both sides. No-one is innocent in war.


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## greggy (26 September 2009)

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TabJockey said:


> You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?




Italy was part of the Evil of Axis because of Mussolini.  Please remember that Mussolini stormed into power and was a brutal dictator. There were many Italians who were partisans fighting against the Axis of Evil during WW2. Many Italians also protected many Jews and partisan fighters during WW2. 
My grandmother in Venice was given a medal for her protection of partisan soldiers during WW2.  She put her life at risk on a daily basis.  She used to hide them in the attic and also relayed messages.


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## Who Dares Wins (27 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



sam76 said:


> I think the 'official' move on from the war was during the 50th anniversary





hahaha

"Move On" is just a catchphrase for the dis-affected.


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## wayneL (27 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



greggy said:


> My grandmother in Venice was given a medal for her protection of partisan soldiers during WW2.  She put her life at risk on a daily basis.  She used to hide them in the attic and also relayed messages.



In awe! I never cease to be amazed at what people did in that war. True bravery.


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## MrBurns (27 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



wayneL said:


> In awe! I never cease to be amazed at what people did in that war. True bravery.




I'll second that.


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## BradK (28 September 2009)

Interestingly, 1920's Germany, apart from the cluttered Weimar governments, was probably the most *civilised *European country at the time - leaders in philosophy, art, the theatre, literature, theology, science (Einstein was at Humbolt University). 

What always amazes me is how a nation can turn from the heights of civil society and within about 10 years (1929 to 1939) turn into Jew-hating goose steppers, willing to commit all sorts of atrocities- you could refer to Daniel Goldhagen's Hitlers Willing Executioners. Its not enough to say, as the current Pope has, that the crimes were perpetrated by a 'gang of criminals'. It was national.  

I guess the answer lies in the radicalisation brought about by the Great Depression. Why didn't other nations turn to dictatorship? Well, probably because the Germans had the bitter experience of the 1923 inflation (only 6.5 years earlier) still in recent memory. 

Also, the propaganda was effective. Paint your slogans in big black and white. And often. The Nazi's also had its fair share of nutty underlings - Himmler (nuts!), Goering (I have no words), and Goebbels (nuts!) to back up Hitler. These guys would 'work towards the Fuhrer' (a concept developed by British historian Ian Kershaw) which suggests that they interpreted Hitler's vision in increasingly radical ways and tried to outdo each other for the attention of the Fuhrer. And when I say 'attention', I don't mean out of some need to be loved - but putting more elaborate and radical plans in front of the fuhrer meant more resources for your department. And it was all about access to the Fuhrer. 

See, Hitler was in fact the laziest ba$tard you are ever likely to meet! Watched videos until 3am and bored the **** out of the dinner guests, and woke at about 1pm for a few hours paperwork before afternoon tea, dinner and more movies. 

Now, let me turn to Bush and co. There is a rule on the internet that if you compare someone to Hitler than you immediately lose the argument - can anyone remember what it is????????? hahhahaha. 

But, lets disregard that rule for a minute. I'm not suggesting that Bush was like Hitler, but I see alot of similarities between 1930s Germany and 2000s United States. The use of propaganda, painting big ideological ideas into simple slogans, the corruption of civil society, the persecution of those willing to speak out (not at the hands of the government, admittedly), but those Dixie Chicks sure copped it! 

I think with the benefit of hindsight, we will look back on this war on terror with a great sense of shame. And in 70 years, Chindia will be asking, 'When will the United States be forgiven?' 

Brad


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## Mr J (28 September 2009)

BradK said:


> And in 70 years, Chindia will be asking, 'When will the United States be forgiven?'




I doubt it, since attacking a few smaller countries doesn't really compare to taking on the rest of the west and almost defeating it. China also has the invasion of Tibet, and by that time possibly the invasion of Taiwan.



> I'm not suggesting that Bush was like Hitler, but I see alot of similarities because 1930s Germany and 2000s United States




It's a good example of propaganda and how easily people get swept up by emotion. It was also a time when the public relied far more on the radio and newspaper, making it far easier to control. Germany was subjected to years of propaganda, including staging 'attacks' to use for their case for war. 

As for the Germans and Jews, imagine a situation that starts similarly to the Americans and the muslims. The public is bombarded with heavy propaganda, and the jews/muslims are eventually rounded up similar to the movie "The Siege" (which kind of fortold 9/11 a few years earlier). They start being shipped out, and most of the public supports it, no longer cares or are willing to look the other way. And now we have a group ready to be exterminated. We've seen many groups in history become the victims of propaganda, and how easy it is to spread hatred and indifference among the public.



> There is a rule on the internet that if you compare someone to Hitler than you immediately lose the argument




Hitler wasn't any more evil, he just lucked into the right circumstances in gaining power. Millions would have been capable of any of his attrocities, so it's not actually fair that he's singled out. By doing so, we ignore of what we ourselves are capable of.


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## Tink (28 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> It's a good example of propaganda and how easily people get swept up by emotion. It was also a time when the public relied far more on the radio and newspaper, making it far easier to control. Germany was subjected to years of propaganda, including staging 'attacks' to use for their case for war.
> 
> As for the Germans and Jews, imagine a situation that starts similarly to the Americans and the muslims. The public is bombarded with heavy propaganda, and the jews/muslims are eventually rounded up similar to the movie "The Siege" (which kind of fortold 9/11 a few years earlier). They start being shipped out, and most of the public supports it, no longer cares or are willing to look the other way. And now we have a group ready to be exterminated.
> 
> We've seen many groups in history become the victims of propaganda, and how easy it is to spread hatred and indifference among the public.




Interesting concept and the reason we should never forget - History

How easy things can just move along..

We are lucky now with the internet, that we dont only feed on the tripe from the media..


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## dbcok (28 September 2009)

Kath and Kim TV show when Kath derided SBS programmes with"Itler,Itler,Itler,Churchill"
The elephant in the room,not mentioned,was holocaust.
When the Jewish influence in the western media is diminished or fades then we might see less of the second world war.


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## mellifuous (28 September 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I also remember Bruce Ruxton head of the RSL for many years could never forgive the Japanese after what he saw them do to Aussies in WW11 but subsequent generations get over it, they have to.




I met Bruce Ruxton in HK once and he really was a very genuine man. 

A man close to my family (now deceased) hated the japanese until the day he died - he told me that he never a took a prisoner and that he killed many japanese.  

I guess there would be many ex-soldiers who feel that way about germans.

For us, past wars should be history lessons we should heed.  This crazy world has a habit of falling apart without notice to anyone.




doctorj said:


> If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.




I guess it might be interesting, but not as an inmate.


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## Chris45 (28 September 2009)

*Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........*



doctorj said:


> If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.



Saw a photo gallery/memorial or something of Auschwitz in Berlin many years ago. It was horrific and to this day, it feels like I actually went there.


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## Mr J (28 September 2009)

mellifuous said:


> For us, past wars should be history lessons we should heed.  This crazy world has a habit of falling apart without notice to anyone.




The causes of the wars may make for better lessons.


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## Shrewd Crude (28 September 2009)

It is not possible to forgive Germany,
and the fact im very lucky to be here as I come from Jewish background...

Its also hard to forgive Russia....
After World War two Russia never withdrew its troops from eastern Europe...
They acquipied Hungary for decades as my countrymen were pillaged and tortured by these beasts...
we got the great escape, and came to New Zealand, where we have lived ever since....

.^sc


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## Mr J (28 September 2009)

Hatred breeds more hatred.


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## greggy (28 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Hatred breeds more hatred.




Spot on Mr J.  As mentioned in my earlier post, my grandmother hid partisans during WW2 and relayed messages for them.  I remember her telling stories about WW2 and made it clear to me that she never hated German people.  She only hated the Nazis.


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## mellifuous (28 September 2009)

greggy said:


> Spot on Mr J.  As mentioned in my earlier post, my grandmother hid partisans during WW2 and relayed messages for them.  I remember her telling stories about WW2 and made it clear to me that she never hated German people.  She only hated the Nazis.




Last time I read about it, the Nazis were Germans.   Hard to look at the Nuremberg Rallies and think that the Nazis didn't have broad support among the German people.

People/Nazi/army - not much difference in my mind.   Of course, after the war it would have been difficult to find a Nazi or Nazi supporter - they were all just German people again, apolitical and spending their time dancing around may poles and downing steins of beer.

Of course, it goes without saying that a percentage of Germans didn't support the Nazis but I'll bet that most were happy taking back the lands they believed to be theirs.

The lesson is that even a 'civilized' society can act in a murderous and destructive way - and Germany did just that.

It's not just jews that suffered, but so did gypsies, poles, slavs - even Germans who were born less than perfect.

Let's not forget that Germany tried sending some Jewish people to the US, and the US rejected them.

There's heaps of nasty things to discuss - but, probably better not to.  It's enough to remember and to learn.


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## Mr J (28 September 2009)

> People/Nazi/army - not much difference in my mind.




That's no more reasonable than suggesting most muslims are extremists. The Nazi party didn't even recieve half the vote, and I would guess that most who did vote for them did not hold extreme views.


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## greggy (28 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> That's no more reasonable than suggesting most muslims are extremists. The Nazi party didn't even recieve half the vote, and I would guess that most who did vote for them did not hold extreme views.




Right again Mr J. Many Germans were pretty much forced to attend these rallies out of fear. The Nazis also persecuted many of their own.


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## Chris45 (28 September 2009)

I think that most Germans were quite horrified and guilt ridden when the truth came out about how they'd been duped by their leaders and the horrors they'd committed.

I was touring Germany with three friends in '72 and we stopped at a cafe for lunch. When we asked for the bill we were told that our bill had already been paid. It had been paid by a middle-aged German and his wife sitting at the next table who presumably had heard our English. Sadly they couldn't speak English and we couldn't speak German but we thanked them as best we could and I'd like to think it helped them feel better about themselves. That was just one of many good experiences I had in Germany. I like Germans.

I've never been to Vietnam but apparently the Vietnamese have been very forgiving of us for the horrors we inflicted on them.

Many victims of crime have found that hatred doesn't get them anywhere. Forgive and move on is what works best for them. I've got to admire them for being able to do that.


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## wayneL (28 September 2009)

Shrewd Crude said:


> It is not possible to forgive Germany,
> and the fact im very lucky to be here as I come from Jewish background...




Forgiveness is more important for the aggrieved. Not forgiving will hurt you more than it hurts Germany. 

But FWIW, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Every nationality/race is fully capable and guilty of atrocity... even Jews/Israel... even the English/English decent.

Need I mention the genocide of the American Indian, Boer War, Dresden, Palestine etc etc etc.

Should Israel be forgiven once the mess in Palestine is sorted?

I like Jews, they're great folks; so are Germans. But there are evil SOBs in both races. Best to get over it IMO.


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## Julia (28 September 2009)

Chris45 said:


> I think that most Germans were quite horrified and guilt ridden when the truth came out about how they'd been duped by their leaders and the horrors they'd committed.
> 
> I was touring Germany with three friends in '72 and we stopped at a cafe for lunch. When we asked for the bill we were told that our bill had already been paid. It had been paid by a middle-aged German and his wife sitting at the next table who presumably had heard our English. Sadly they couldn't speak English and we couldn't speak German but we thanked them as best we could and I'd like to think it helped them feel better about themselves. That was just one of many good experiences I had in Germany. I like Germans.
> 
> ...



Great post, Chris.


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## grantk (28 September 2009)

Having lived in Germany for a couple of years I've had a chance to talk to many Germans about this.  Up until the last football word cup being hosted in Germany, it was frowned upon to show much in the way of National support (flying a German flag for example).  However the world cup seemed to lift a weight off the nations collective shoulders and most Germans seem again to be proud to be German, which was not the case in the past.

The one thing they should be credited with, is how open they have been with what occurred and how much emphasis they have placed on ensuring the message does not get lost.  Concentration camps remain open, monuments to the dead are in every town and TV shows still run on the horrors that occurred.  All sides commit atrocities in war, but Germany is the only country I have seen openly acknowledge them decades later.


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## matty2.0 (29 September 2009)

Germans = Inglourious Basterds

according to some.


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## wayneL (29 September 2009)

BTW

If anyone is of English descent, there is a high probability of having a whopping big helping of Teutonic blood flowing through your veins. The royal family is German blood.

The Germans are our cousins.


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## Hedders (29 September 2009)

grantk said:


> Having lived in Germany for a couple of years I've had a chance to talk to many Germans about this.  Up until the last football word cup being hosted in Germany, it was frowned upon to show much in the way of National support (flying a German flag for example).  However the world cup seemed to lift a weight off the nations collective shoulders and most Germans seem again to be proud to be German, which was not the case in the past.
> 
> The one thing they should be credited with, is how open they have been with what occurred and how much emphasis they have placed on ensuring the message does not get lost.  Concentration camps remain open, monuments to the dead are in every town and TV shows still run on the horrors that occurred.  All sides commit atrocities in war, but Germany is the only country I have seen openly acknowledge them decades later.




Good post! Having been to Germany/Austria a few times and gone through Dachau and Matthausen concentration camps, the Germans are very open about their past- it's there for all to see. I think the Germans live with their shameful past more intensely than we do with our historical treatment of Aboriginals for example. That's not to say we don't feel remorseful, but I think Aussie pride suffers less than German pride in daily life. Forgiveness is a real path to recovery and peace. Harbouring hatred will stifle any attempts to move on. I'm not sure any nation is in a position to point the finger- if forgiveness never happens, you can go further and further back into the past, during which time we'll all have stuffed up.


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## Soft Dough (7 October 2009)

Hedders said:


> I think the Germans live with their shameful past more intensely than we do with our historical treatment of Aboriginals for example. That's not to say we don't feel remorseful, but I think Aussie pride suffers less than German pride in daily life. Forgiveness is a real path to recovery and peace.




That is totally different. Australian aboriginals receive compensation if they make a claim, hence Australians are unwilling to admit liability ( as why should I be forced to pay higher taxes for decisions made by people 200 years ago, which were done in good faith and according to the law, both internationally recognised and locally recognised ).  Stolen generation anyone?

As soon as germany starts paying compensation, then I'll say that they are more remorseful than Australians

PS I forgive Germany, even though my ancestors were displaced and traumatised by the experience.


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## Riddick (7 October 2009)

a couple of points to add to the discussion:

1. history is written by the victors. If germany had wont the war it would have been allied comanders at the nuremburg trials charged with war crimes for the fire bombing of Dresden amongst other things. many of the germans i have met are still incensed that this episode was conveniently forgotten.

2. There is absolutely no parallel between germany crica 1935 - 46 and the claiming of australia by british settlers. there is no legal parallel - see terra nullius - there was never any official government plan to wipe out australian natives and anyone with any experience (I worked for 5 years in the pilbara in wa) with Aboriginals will know that each language group mob sees themselves as a distinct group, ethnically diverse from other language groups. This is the diametrically opposed to the situation brough about by german governance in the 30's and 40's.

3. More Polish nationals were sent to concentration camps than strictly ethnic jews and a greater number of polish nationals were executed than ethnic jews. (not understating the jewish suffering at all) 

I have had some long conversations with a survivor of the'final solution' who witnessed the mass execution of poles first hand, the vast bulk of them not being jews. (my partners father, a pole who was first placed in an internment camp as a young child after ss troopers killed his parents in the kitchen of their home in 1941).


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## grantk (8 October 2009)

Soft Dough said:


> As soon as germany starts paying compensation, then I'll say that they are more remorseful than Australians




Germany has been paying compensation since the end of the war


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## Riddick (10 October 2009)

dbcok said:


> Kath and Kim TV show when Kath derided SBS programmes with"Itler,Itler,Itler,Churchill"
> The elephant in the room,not mentioned,was holocaust.
> When the Jewish influence in the western media is diminished or fades then we might see less of the second world war.




some thoughts:

1. with no war shows, the history channel would be endless re-runs of shows about the roman empire.

2. shows about ww2, no mater how crappy and contrived are still far superior to 99% of the rubbish that is not about ww2. 

3. We are not exactly inundated with shows about ww2 on free to air or pay tv. a couple of shows a week is not satuaration.


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## drsmith (10 October 2009)

This might be more interesting.

http://www.ironsky.net/


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## moneymajix (10 October 2009)

Good and bad in all races.


One lesson to learn from WW2 imo, is not to be too nationalistic.


I am extremely lucky to be Australian in regards to economics, lifestyle issues and freedoms etc. 

Imo, don't think your country is always right.
Constructive criticism is an important issue for all citizens.


"Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi" is great if it about inclusion and mateship etc.



.


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## Mr J (10 October 2009)

Riddick said:


> some thoughts:




WW2 would be heavily featured regardless of who controls the world's media. The scale of the war was unprecedented, it happened recently, and there is a lot of information about it. Non-stop war for over 5 years covering the globe, with 60+ million dead.


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## moneymajix (10 October 2009)

grantk:
"_Germany has been paying compensation since the end of the war "_


I have some limited knowlegde of German compensation to forced Slave labour (now residing in Australia).
Some citizens from invaded countries were forced to go to Germany and work for no pay.
Uprooted from their famillies and many were very young. A lot never have seen their families again.


*NOT EVERYONE ELIGIBLE*

Some didn't get the compensation as they weren't deemed to have been involved for long enough.

I think you had to have been slave labour for all or most of the war.

So, too bad it you weren't there for the duration determined although you might have still been forced labour for years.


*AMOUNTS*

Small amounts.


*TOO LATE*

Took so long to institute that a lot of those who were eligible were dead or close to death.
Those getting paid were in their 70s and 80s when the payments started.

You could assume that was a reason to drag it out. Longer it took to institute the less people around to pay.     

.


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## Riddick (10 October 2009)

moneymajix said:


> grantk:
> "_Germany has been paying compensation since the end of the war "_
> 
> *NOT EVERYONE ELIGIBLE*
> ...




If history is any kind of teacher then surely the fact that germany paid compensation at all stands out against almost every other time period previous.

The americans haven't paid institutional compensation for the slaves they took. neither have the british, french, spanish, portuegese, japanese or any other colonising power.

It was a WAR afterall, one side against the other. Yes it was terrible (family members fought for the allies) and it affected millions. To expect compensation seems noble when taken on face value, but ludicrous when compared to previous events in history. just my opinion


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