# 'I've done all the dumb things' - Suggestions?



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

Hi everyone. I've been lurking here for a while and enjoy reading many of the discussions on this site. By way of introduction I thought I'd ask a practical question about a trade that I am in the process of murdering.

I'm a newbie with very little capital so I thought I would take it slow. I've spent the last few months reading books, learning the basics of TA and watching the market. I read about many of the mistakes that people make when starting out, then promptly made all of them myself. Eg.,

1. Not using a stop loss. 
2. Not following my plan.
3. Believing the hype ("this ones gonna skyrocket when the ann comes out!")

Three days later and i'm sitting on a 35% paper loss. 

I am not too worried about the financial cost as it's money I can afford to lose and I expect to take a few beatings along the way, but on a practical note, I guess i have three options -

1. Realise the loss (which may mean selling near the bottom as the stock is now approaching a previous support level).
2. Average down (this seems like throwing good money after bad).
3. Put the shares in the bottom drawer (where bad stocks go to die).

I've deliberately not mentioned the company, as I'm more interested in strategies than discussion of the actual stock.

Apologies for the long-winded post. Thoughts, anyone?


----------



## trillionaire#1 (4 May 2008)

I try repeatedly to drum into my head -dont get emotionally stuck on a stock.
Most companies have great upside potential if the planets align etc, but rarely deliver FMG type gains.

I'm probably as green as you are but I would advise you to set a stop loss at 5-10% and protect your capital. Downside to this is in a volatile market you may be constantly selling at stop loss then rebuying and repeating the process until, the law of diminishing returns as my dad used to say.

Good luck.


----------



## Temjin (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> 1. Realise the loss (which may mean selling near the bottom as the stock is now approaching a previous support level).




What if that support level fails? Are you going to wait and see before exiting?

My advise to you is to realise the loss immediately and forgot about "trying" to wait for the stock to raise back higher to reclaim the lost. 

Yes, it may rise back after you have exit and you will regret it. The other alternatives are that it will continue to drop and you will look for the next "support" level to justify your unwillingness to sell. What will you do then? When will you actually exit? 

This is a simple trap that most new players find it hard to resist.

My advise to you is to exit immediately with NO REGRETS and put the remaining capital back into your drawer and rethink about your trading plan again. Do not fully commit until you know what you are doing. 

If you want to "test" the water and try it out again, then only do it with fairly limited money that you can easily afford to lose. In my opinions, trying out your psychological capacity through real life trading with REAL money and to get practical experience is extremely invaluable . I believe that EVERY "successful" single traders on this planet have went through some sort of losses before they have developed the necessary discipline to follow a trading plan. 

Good luck.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

Thanks for the prompt replies!

I think I will sell and spend a while licking my wounds and doing my homework. I actually see some positives in this experience - I've been given some very clear messages about what not to do, and it hasn't cost much in the scheme of things. 

This particular stock is fairly illiquid and looking at the market depth there are a couple of big sell orders lined up near the previous close.

I have also signed up with a broker that offers stop losses. I won't make that mistake again.


----------



## nioka (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> Hi everyone. I've been lurking here for a while and enjoy reading many of the discussions on this site. By way of introduction I thought I'd ask a practical question about a trade that I am in the process of murdering.
> 
> I'm a newbie with very little capital so I thought I would take it slow. I've spent the last few months reading books, learning the basics of TA and watching the market. I read about many of the mistakes that people make when starting out, then promptly made all of them myself. Eg.,
> 
> ...




 I've had plenty of stocks that have given me the same result. I do not use and never believed in stock loss arrangements. If one of my stocks show a loss and many do I look at the fundamentals. I look at the price the stock currently sells for. If I decide it is a reasonable buy at it's current price then I keep it (sometimes as a bottom drawer stock). If I decide that it is not then I sell. Some of my best investments would not have been held long enough to prosper if I had used stop losses.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (4 May 2008)

following on from Temjins post.

another idea is to apply money management to your trading plan and have a predetermined exit point before you make that trade. once u make the trade u have a stop loss order that is going to take u out of the market if it reaches that point. this takes the guessing out of exiting, but it opens up a whole new frontier of mental games for a new trader!

at the end of the day we all want to make money but the key to trading is survival. You have to protect your capital so u can play again. 

good trading to u Panacea


----------



## Sir Burr (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> 'I've done all the dumb things'
> 
> Thoughts, anyone?




Definitely!


SB


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

nioka, >Apocalypto<,

Your conflicting approaches to stop-losses is what i'm grappling with. Obviously there's no easy answer. 

One thing is becoming pretty clear to me - I should have planned for all the potential outcomes BEFORE entering the trade.

Sir Burr,
I know the song well! Cheers.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 May 2008)

well Panacea, my  worth -  from the peanut gallery 

35% is a lot to lose in 3 days!, and unless there's a reason for the loss other than "normal fluctuations", then I reckon it would be worth being patient for another week or two, unless you know some other "hot lead" ( yeah right lol). 

Sometimes I argue it this way... (suppose I had say BHP and it went down 10%)  -- I'd argue , should I sell? - hell if I was sitting in cash, I'd be buying !!  so why the heck would I sell under the same logic. ?

Nearly all my mistakes have been to sell in a trough and turn a paper loss into a real loss - and had I just stuck around a few weeks , I'd have come out "a lot better" and/or way ahead.    

If you write down your portfolio distribution from 6 months ago - and from 12 etc - and see what would have happened if you hadn't intervened AT ALL - I find I (often) would be better off.  

I know the usual advice is to sell "dogs", but if it's not yet proven to be a "dog" - then I'd (probably) be holding, always assuming the stock had some positives 3 days ago 

Then again, I got out of CDR when it was down about 10% - and these days it's down about 90% 

Gambling mate - it's all bludy gambling if you ask me . 

PS as for stop losses - I don't use em either - a guaranteed 5 or 10% loss (whatever) imo - where those who manipulate the market know just how far to drop the price to trigger the damned things, then buy up big - then tomorrow they bounce back 

- but heck I'm an amateur here.  - Maybe, if you DO sell, then monitor what WOULD have happened had you held - just for fun


----------



## nomore4s (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> nioka, >Apocalypto<,
> 
> Your conflicting approaches to stop-losses is what i'm grappling with. Obviously there's no easy answer.
> 
> ...




You probably need to decide how you are giong to trade first.

If you decide to use T/A imo you need a stop.

If like nioka you want to use fundies and not have a stop, you need to have a lot of faith in your reading of the fundimentals.

Build a plan around what suits you and stick to that plan.
Plan the trade and trade the plan.

Good luck


----------



## nioka (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Gambling mate - it's all bludy gambling if you ask me .
> 
> PS as for stop losses - I don't use em either - a guaranteed 5 or 10% loss (whatever) imo - where those who manipulate the market know just how far to drop the price to trigger the damned things, then buy up big - then tomorrow they bounce back




 Gambling maybe. An educated guess puts the odds in your favour.

 I often wonder if those promoting a 5% stop loss  purposly do it to help them manipulate the market and actually make trades to drop the market.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

nomore4s said:


> You probably need to decide how you are giong to trade first.
> 
> If you decide to use T/A imo you need a stop.
> 
> ...




Thanks nomore4s, I was just thinking the same thing. I guess I still haven't made a clear decision about TA / FA, trading / investing, or a combination and therefore haven't got a properly developed plan.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 35% is a lot to lose in 3 days!, and unless there's a reason for the loss other than "normal fluctuations", then I reckon it would be worth being patient for another week or two




This is crux of the matter. From my understanding, the companies fundamentals are unchanged and the mid - long term upside still exists. If the announcement had read "CEO embezzles XYZ, last seen at Kingsford Smith Airport", I'd have a good idea what to do.


----------



## peter2 (4 May 2008)

Your plan must address risk. How much of your capital are you willing to risk for the returns that you seek? The higher the return the higher the risks.
If you want 20% on your capital then losing 35% of it is ridiculous. If you seek 100% return then you may have to be prepared to lose 35% at some stage.

[After a 35% loss, you will need a 53% gain just to get back to where you were.]

It doesn't matter which technique you use, TA, FA or a combo. If you lose your capital then you cannot continue.


----------



## nioka (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> Thanks nomore4s, I was just thinking the same thing. I guess I still haven't made a clear decision about TA / FA, trading / investing, or a combination and therefore haven't got a properly developed plan.




You can do both. I like to think that I am both a trader and an investor. The tax dept call me a trader. I call myself an investor who sometimes trades. I usually trade only on things I see as investments. I particularly like to trade to a point where my investment is free carried. This is relatively easy to do in the penny stocks. I'm free carried now with stocks like ADI, AUT, NSL, FNT, TEY, TAS, AOE, ACE, ABJ, PRE. I traded them to get them to that stage.They are now investment stocks.

 I have a dog called NWR, could sell it at a loss but decided to trade it until it repays me. I hate losing. Sometimes it doesn't come off. I hold AAE and LAF that are suspended.

And yes we all do dumb things. It's called being human.

 As nomore says "Plan the trade and trade the plan." That I do agree with.


----------



## peter2 (4 May 2008)

The really dumb thing is not learning from your mistakes.


----------



## tech/a (4 May 2008)

> As nomore says "Plan the trade and trade the plan." That I do agree with.




And as I keep saying.
Trading a plan which you have no idea wether its profitable or has the opportunity of being profitable is just as dumb as not trading with any plan at all.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

nioka said:


> I usually trade only on things I see as investments. I particularly like to trade to a point where my investment is free carried. This is relatively easy to do in the penny stocks. I'm free carried now with stocks like ADI, AUT, NSL, FNT, TEY, TAS, AOE, ACE, ABJ, PRE. I traded them to get them to that stage.They are now investment stocks.





nioka,

Newbie question... what do you mean by trading stocks until they are "free-carried"?


----------



## Timmy (4 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> And as I keep saying.
> Trading a plan which you have no idea whether its profitable or has the opportunity of being profitable is just as dumb as not trading with any plan at all.




Thats a good point.


----------



## tech/a (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> nioka,
> 
> Newbie question... what do you mean by trading stocks until they are "free-carried"?




Example.

buy the stock at $1
At 1.20 sell the initial stock cost outlay.
Keep the profit running.
The stock is now a fee trade.
to lose all the profit it would have to be delisted.( go broke).


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> Example.
> 
> buy the stock at $1
> At 1.20 sell the initial stock cost outlay.
> ...




Thanks tech/a, that makes sense. I suppose you would need a reasonably large position size, or a very strong gain for this to be worthwhile? (Otherwise you would be left with a very small parcel of stock).


----------



## farout (4 May 2008)

I think if you want an honest intelligent view/opinion you need to provide all the info. I am certainly not prepared to say 'hold' or 'sell' without knowing which company you are referring to. There are a lot of quality stocks out there that have been oversold. Perhaps yours is one of them and you may just be sitting on a long-term winner.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

farout said:


> I think if you want an honest intelligent view/opinion you need to provide all the info. I am certainly not prepared to say 'hold' or 'sell' without knowing which company you are referring to. There are a lot of quality stocks out there that have been oversold. Perhaps yours is one of them and you may just be sitting on a long-term winner.




Your right. I'm not trying to be evasive though - it's just that mentioning a stock (ELK for example ) would likely see this thread become focused on the stock itself, and not on the general strategy side of things.


----------



## tech/a (4 May 2008)

It really is simple.

Dont hold losses.
Only hold winners.

Most do the exact opposite.

Rather than put all your eggs in one oil well spread your portfolio.
*LEARN how to POSITION size.*
Read and learn Fixed Fractional position sizing.

Know when your wrong and get out,make sure your positionsizing is such that when clearly your wrong taking the loss wont have you thinking
GOD I dont want to realise this loss!!

Build your fortune over years.
Rather than attempting to make it in 3 mths.
Trading this way almost guarentees ruin in 3 mths the exact opposite to what you wish to achieve.

Learn how to read a chart
You would never have gone long on ELK had you known what to look for.
It was as plain as daylight even software picked it up!

While its to late to undo this error there is opportunity to mitigate it.(recover some losses.)
ELK in the short term appears to be over the worst in my view (Not advice just an observation) Fridays bar shows some strength but to early to say how recovery could go. The next few days will give a hint I'm sure.


----------



## peter2 (4 May 2008)

farout, you should know better. Nobody should be giving specific financial advice without a license. (My apologies if you do have license.)

-35% / 3 days with low volume = most probably a low priced "gunna" stock with unreliable FA.


----------



## tech/a (4 May 2008)

> in my view (Not advice just an observation)




Which part of the above didnt you understand?


----------



## Joe Blow (4 May 2008)

farout said:


> I am certainly not prepared to say 'hold' or 'sell' without knowing which company you are referring to.




Nobody in this thread should be suggesting to anyone to "buy", "sell" or "hold" anything. Doing so is illegal and I will immediately remove any posts that suggest anything along those lines.

The only responsible way for people to respond in a thread such as this is to outline possible options, not to recommend or advise anything.


----------



## Nyden (4 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> Example.
> 
> buy the stock at $1
> At 1.20 sell the initial stock cost outlay.
> ...




Yes, but tech - this hardly works for someone that has very little capital.
Let's say someone has 5k to invest; they spread that over 5 stocks ... 1k per stock. A 20% gain is fairly substantial, and this would involve holding (at risk) for a fairly long period of time ... now, let's say it does eventually hit that 20% mark, after transaction fees ... that's only $130 worth of free-carried stock! Worthless; after further transaction fees, wouldn't even be worth selling.


Unfortunately, the other problem is that people with very little capital ... are more emotionally attached to the money they have. I've made this mistake myself in the past, sold out near-bottom for some hefty losses for fear of losing what I had. I believe if you don't have a lot of capital, you shouldn't be in the market ... period. Everyone says a portfolio should be diversified (across more sectors than stocks alone), should this not apply to even a very small portfolio? 

Stop-losses (especially in the current market environment) can also be quite damaging to a small-holding; all that automatic selling, and re-buying can very quickly dissolve a small amount of money.


----------



## pattyp (4 May 2008)

Hi Panacea,

U've had some good advice already... But I thought Id share my early experiences 2twocents) and some comments... Take it or leave it 

In my first 2-yrs I lost 90% of my capital twice... LoL. Both times were complete wipe-outs in under 3hrs using margin loans... So greedy, so nieve, *So Stupid*... I just kept averaging down into oblivion...

When I first started trading, an investor I knew said to me...

"Be prepared for pain... This is hard... Most give up... The ones that don't, the ones that insist on criticising themselves, bettering themselves, learning everything about the markets (TA/FA/etc) will take losses, but more importantly, live life with HUGE wins and compounding wealth"

...eh... It was along those lines anyway. He was a smart guy... But he was also a doctor and therefore could afford to lose his money LoL.

Anyway...



Panacea said:


> 1. Realise the loss (which may mean selling near the bottom as the stock is now approaching a previous support level).




If technical trading, Stop-loss hit - Sell out and move on... Thats what I do.



Panacea said:


> 2. Average down (this seems like throwing good money after bad).




I regularly average down... But ONLY on Fundamental Trades... Corps. I'm so confident in, and know so well, that I see a drop in price as a golden opportunity to increase holding. I never avg down TA trades... Thats killed me more then anything else 



Panacea said:


> 3. Put the shares in the bottom drawer (where bad stocks go to die).




IMO - Bottom drawer isn't for stocks to go to die... If my stock is dying (eg. Holds no more value in my opinion) I sell and re-allocate the capital. I do however keep highly speculative stocks that are explorers/new tech. in my bottom drawer... Mainly because they are small holdings, long lead time before expected return... Dont want to think about them day-to-day.

Good Luck Dude...

Pat


----------



## >Apocalypto< (4 May 2008)

Nyden said:


> Yes, but tech - this hardly works for someone that has very little capital.
> Let's say someone has 5k to invest; they spread that over 5 stocks ... 1k per stock. A 20% gain is fairly substantial, and this would involve holding (at risk) for a fairly long period of time ... now, let's say it does eventually hit that 20% mark, after transaction fees ... that's only $130 worth of free-carried stock! Worthless; after further transaction fees, wouldn't even be worth selling.
> 
> 
> ...




Good post and good points. But where's the answer? I would be even more confused after reading that and looking for a solution.

*Panacea*

Me personally I never place a trade without a stop loss. Now I do trade short term on FX 30min and 1hr time frames. But regardless of the time frame I always know my exit price. No matter how good you r at trading or how good your frame of mind or your analysis you can never you exactly what the market will do next. Due to that fact I put survival first. All my stops are worked out to a % of my account.

If I was long term I would also place stops, but they would be much wider then I use now to allow for natural movements. But like Tech has said u have to cut your losers and ride your winners!


----------



## Nyden (4 May 2008)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Good post and good points. But where's the answer? I would be even more confused after reading that and looking for a solution.
> 
> *Panacea*
> 
> ...




Well, that's because there is no easy answer here. He / she has stated that they have very little capital, have made some mistakes, & realistically - there is nothing that can be done to "fix" the situation, only to prevent further losses I guess.

There is an answer in there though, if you read carefully. I did state that someone who has very little capital ... shouldn't be in the market (in my opinion). In the current market environment, unless you're really long-term, or really know what you're doing ... you shouldn't be in it.

No one can offer actual suggestions, only ideas - so, I shall pose this question to you Panacea - would you buy the stocks you currently hold right now? If you hadn't bought them already, and were looking at them right now, would you buy them? That is essentially what you're doing by holding them ... re-buying them.

If you're no longer confident in the company ... to the point where you would no longer comfortably invest in them, then you should really change something.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (4 May 2008)

Nyden said:


> Well, that's because there is no easy answer here. He / she has stated that they have very little capital, have made some mistakes, & realistically - there is nothing that can be done to "fix" the situation, only to prevent further losses I guess.
> 
> There is an answer in there though, if you read carefully. I did state that someone who has very little capital ... shouldn't be in the market (in my opinion). In the current market environment, unless you're really long-term, or really know what you're doing ... you shouldn't be in it.
> 
> ...




Agree and disagree on a aspect mate,

Again great post. 

I personally feel the best way to become a better trader once starting out is to go live but do it in a controlled way. If you start a account with a tiny amount of money and get used to trading live this helps develop the mental skills u need. The main skill is it's ok to lose and it's ok to be wrong as long as you are risking something that u can afford to lose.

That is the big one. Can a new trader have the discipline not to get greedy and lose it. That comes down to the person I guess. I have found demo trading serves it purpose in testing new ideas at principal level but till u go live you really won't know exactly how it will go. Look I have just touched on the mental aspect, really that requires a whole new thread.

Nyden again thanks for keeping constructive


----------



## refined silver (4 May 2008)

I agree, there has been some good advice already, especially noika and peter2. IMO you first need to know why you bought the stock.

If on TA reasons, you better have a stop and you better sell on TA reasons. If for Fundamental reasons, a decline means you better review all the fundamental reasons you bought, check if you missed some factor, or has something new developed which changes the fundamentals of why you bought. If so may be time to sell. If not, and your analysis was correct, it may be time to hold or even buy more.

Secondly you need a good idea of the volatility of the instrument you are trading. For some shares 10% is a huge move and for others, 20% in a day is quite normal. 

Thirdly, you need to understand what sort of instrument you are buying. Strategies that work with say small illiquid shares, are very different to strategies for blue chip shares, which are very different from strategies for options/futures etc. Check that the advice/books etc you are following is appropriate for what you are buying, eg don't use advice on trading FX for buying small shares. They are totally different animals.


----------



## Panacea (4 May 2008)

Hi guys. Thanks for the replies - there are some really constructive suggestions here. Obviously the issue i've raised is something many people have come across before. 

I think i'll set a stop a couple of ticks below Fridays close. This will contain any further damage, while allowing me to look for a better exit if one presents itself.

>Apocalypto<, I agree with your take on small traders / investers being in the market. If i'm willing to cop the cost of brokerage as being part of the learning process, why not make the occasional small trade to learn the ropes? Who knows, I may be able to slowly grow my capital while learning 'hands on'.

Cheers.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> Hi guys. Thanks for the replies - there are some really constructive suggestions here. Obviously the issue i've raised is something many people have come across before.
> 
> I think i'll set a stop a couple of ticks below Fridays close. This will contain any further damage, while allowing me to look for a better exit if one presents itself.
> 
> ...




Panacea.

Learning to trade is a personal challenge different for each and every one of us. You will see and pick things up that you prefer. Doing dumb things is part of learning. there is no real right way to trade all the points made offer something. The only right way is the way that makes u consistently profitable! 

But me personally I pity people that relay on Guru's to tell them what to do. Fancy starting to trade only to be reliant in a way to a report. This is my opinion and if u use reports to trade that's your thing don't argue cuz I will never change my view.

The mental aspect is very important as much as your edge and your plan. I never really realized this until recently. If I can advise you on anything then I advise u read Trading in the zone by Mark Douglas. but I will leave that for u to decide.

Cheers
Joseph


----------



## nioka (4 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> nioka,
> 
> Newbie question... what do you mean by trading stocks until they are "free-carried"?



 An example. Based on investing multiples of $1000
 Buy $1000 worth of stock "A"  @ 20c/share = 5000 shares.  
 If price rises to 30c .Sell you have $1,460 after brokerage. 
 Place order to buy back at 25c. 
 You buy 5450 shares.
 If price rises again to 30c, sell and you have $1630.so you then place an order in for 6520 shares at 25c. You buy 6520 shares.
 After a few trades you soon have $2,000 worth of shares. You sell half and the rest are "free carried"
 Sounds tedious and slow but it isn't. Sometimes it is possible to trade two or three times a week sometimes daily. I've done it with a few stocks so far this year.
 Then there is cross trading. 
I cross traded TAS and TASO. When the options got to one third of the share price I sold shares and bought options. When I could buy one share for two options I went back to shares. Not exactly in those proportions but close). Each time creaming off a little capital until they owe me nothing.
 I cross traded ADI and AUT. (they have similar interests in an oil well.)
 Any time I saw a difference in the price, after taking into account their relative value I would sell one and buy the other, creaming off a little until I had back my original investment. Lately I have just been increasing my numbers held with each trade.
 Plenty of stocks rise and fall 10% or more in a day you just have to have an order in or be ready to jump the queue with your order. I only trade in stocks I am prepared to hold long term if the trade doesn't eventuate.
 Sometimes it is opportunistic and takes place over a year or more. A stock may have been bought at a low price and goes up and up. There is a lull and so you sell some,the price falls so you buy a few more than you sold.  You build up numbers and there is a point where you can say I'll free carry some and cash the rest.


----------



## So_Cynical (5 May 2008)

Panacea said:


> Three days later and i'm sitting on a 35% paper loss.
> 
> I am not too worried about the financial cost as it's money I can afford to lose and I expect to take a few beatings along the way




1 of my holdings, had a bad ann a couple of weeks ago and fell 30% in a day, its now 
back to where it was..so if i had hit the panic button that day id be really pissed now. 

Like u say its money u can afford to lose...learn from your mistakes, why did XYZ fall 
35% in a couple of days...what didn't u see coming?


----------



## Panacea (6 May 2008)

So_Cynical said:


> what didn't u see coming?




'XYZ' is a speculative oil stock and an announcement was badly received by the market. 

Good news today, though. 17% increase on strong volume, so I may get out without too much damage.


----------



## SilverDollar (6 May 2008)

I understand the concept of free trade but think its a rubbish one personally. Why 

If you have $1 worth of stock and it raises to $1.20 why sell $1 worth...

My options would be..

(A) Sell the lot because you've realized the expected gains and the reason you brought are now fulfilled, or the reason for buying is no longer relevant.

(B) Keep them all as its got to $1.20 but your reason buying is still strong and you think its got some further growth up the sleeve.

If the stock went from $1 to $2 I would apply the above or (because of the massive gains) sell some to re-balance my portfolio.

Just my opinion.

This is my approach. Others have different ones.


----------



## roland (6 May 2008)

SilverDollar said:


> I understand the concept of free trade but think its a rubbish one personally. Why
> 
> If you have $1 worth of stock and it raises to $1.20 why sell $1 worth...
> 
> ...




I tend to agree, however, there is another way which has worked for me with BBW. BBW have a 10% tax deferred capital return, so - over time you end up getting back your investment whilst retaining your shares. You don't pay tax unless you sell some of your shares at a profit.

I have traded BBW and followed the stock down on weakness taken some profits on the rises, whilst retaining a good helping for the dividends to reduce the base cost.

1 more year and I will have 16,000 BBW returning 10% with no tax payable, and ... the best part is that by then I would have had my original purchase price returned...in essence, free shares. (note: some of the return in this case is actually CGT payable gains)

I am currently working on BBP to do the same.


----------



## tech/a (6 May 2008)

SilverDollar said:


> I understand the concept of free trade but think its a rubbish one personally. Why
> 
> If you have $1 worth of stock and it raises to $1.20 why sell $1 worth...
> 
> ...





Its a vanilla explanation not a Blueprint of *WHAT *to do!!

There are countless applications.
One trader I know does this with pennies.
He sells his initial capital out when his trade exits leaving the profit,he leaves
the profit in there and only removes it if THAT drops 30%. Or there is an unusual massive gain. IE 50% or more in 1-3 days.
If other trades appear in the same stock he trades them and does the same.

In the end he has (8 yrs later) a constant stable of stocks. At any one time its between 10 and 30.

He has had some absolutely spectacular returns purely because he's been on stock that Fundamentally AND technically you wouldn't touch with a barge pole and they've just literally flown for no reason.

He erects fences for a living---cant watch a screen and doesn't want to.
 Just before Xmas he paid cash for 2 blocks down South Of Adelaide and now building 4 town houses---2 pre sold.

Bet he didn't get the capital from erecting fences!

Just an idea.


----------



## So_Cynical (6 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> One trader I know does this with pennies.
> He sells his initial capital out when his trade exits leaving the profit,he leaves
> the profit in there and only removes it if THAT drops 30%. Or there is an unusual massive gain. IE 50% or more in 1-3 days.
> If other trades appear in the same stock he trades them and does the same.
> ...




Cant help thinking that I would be way ahead if I invested as above over the last 10 months...you wouldn't pay any CGT as well, on the initial capital in and out.....Its a sorta buy, hold, sell, and build plan...but with discipline.


----------



## Chorlton (6 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> And as I keep saying.
> Trading a plan which you have no idea wether its profitable or has the opportunity of being profitable is just as dumb as not trading with any plan at all.




Yet another quote for my collection!!!


----------



## Temjin (7 May 2008)

Chorlton said:


> Yet another quote for my collection!!!




And to add on top of Tech/A's quote, remember that in theory, those who trade discretionary (based on their intution alone) cannot confidently backtest their trading plan in a systematic way. Their methods for money management and position sizing may remain fairly consistent through out their trading career, but their criterias for entering and exiting will vary as market changes, or for whatever reasons that they feel the need to temporary or permanetly alter it. 

The only valid way to the test the above is to paper test your trading plan until you've made enough sample trades that it will be profitable over the long term. 

If you are trading mechanically, then it is as simple as coding in the strategy in large number of softwares out there and "properly" back test and optimise it.


----------

