# Oslo Bombed, Children Massacred



## Garpal Gumnut (23 July 2011)

This is a dreadful thing for anyone to do. The death penalty for the guilty, and the banishment of their ideology, is the only appropriate response.

gg


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## UBIQUITOUS (23 July 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is a dreadful thing for anyone to do. The death penalty for the guilty, and the banishment of their ideology, is the only appropriate response.
> 
> gg




Hey GG, did you manage to find out the perpetrator's ideology? I haven't but am quite happy to join the mob and bash some muslims

**of course this is a dreadful event, which is all to commonplace these days**


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## Julia (23 July 2011)

UBIQUITOUS said:


> Hey GG, did you manage to find out the perpetrator's ideology? I haven't but am quite happy to join the mob and bash some muslims
> 
> **of course this is a dreadful event, which is all to commonplace these days**




  A native Norwegian.


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## trainspotter (23 July 2011)

> A suspect was arrested. Though police did not release his name, Norwegian national broadcaster NRK identified him as 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik and said police searched his Oslo apartment overnight. NRK and other Norwegian media posted pictures of the blond, blue-eyed Norwegian.
> 
> A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.
> 
> "It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. *This seems like a madman's work."*




http://news.yahoo.com/police-oslo-bomb-camp-shootings-domestic-terror-232522389.html

Unfreakinbelievable.


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## DB008 (23 July 2011)

87 and counting. 

It's been on ABC24 non-stop.


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## Sean K (23 July 2011)

Why are governments so keen to use the 'terror' word?

Was Martin Bryant a 'terrorist'?

People are still trying to justify their actions, that's why.

Obviously this guy is very sick no matter what. A children's camp?


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## Knobby22 (23 July 2011)

kennas said:


> Obviously this guy is very sick no matter what. A children's camp?




It was a Labour party organised camp. He has something against the country's Labour party.


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## Calliope (23 July 2011)

The alleged shooter.


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 July 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259989



> Anders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old suspect in Friday's attacks in Norway, held right-wing views, say police.
> 
> Police chief Sveinung Sponheim said his internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views"




All info thus far points to a Christian fundamentalist.

gg


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## sails (23 July 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259989
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Obviously a very sick and evil person.  Sadly, these sorts often like to align themselves with good and decent people as I guess it gives these sick criminals  some sort of cover.  

How anyone can call themselves human and deliberately kill and maim anyone, let alone children, is totally beyond my comprehension.  This man should be locked up for life as he is so depraved that he would almost certainly offend again, imo.

How terribly sad for the families.


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## explod (23 July 2011)

A continuing bad omen for industrialisation and capitalism.

We have buldozed the trees, broken up the tribes and not provided a replacement for mankind to maintain his family and traditions.

Right, Left, Centre, Green and communist, we all detest each other.

I feel in this case there will be more than the one arrested.  The amount of explosives required and the ammo of the asassin in a country usually passive.


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## skc (23 July 2011)

UBIQUITOUS said:


> Hey GG, did you manage to find out the perpetrator's ideology? I haven't but am quite happy to join the mob and bash some muslims
> 
> **of course this is a dreadful event, which is all to commonplace these days**




I don't know whether people should be more offended that you jumped to the conclusion of muslims, or that you use the phrase "quite happy" in such an event.


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## UBIQUITOUS (23 July 2011)

skc said:


> I don't know whether people should be more offended that you jumped to the conclusion of muslims, or that you use the phrase "quite happy" in such an event.




People aren't offended because they saw the sarcastic smilie at the end of my comment and knew what I was getting at. To cut a long story short, I was having a dig at those on various news-sites were putting their anti-muslim hats on in full expectation that this massacre was carried out by muslims. 

GG, points out that this was done by a Christian fundamentalist. Are we now going to have Anti-Christian fundamentalism articles in the newspapers? I don't think so. When a Christian does it, he's a madman. If a muslim does it, then...well we know the story.

(Note - I'm not muslim and would not like to be - just like many other religions)


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## bellenuit (23 July 2011)

UBIQUITOUS said:


> Are we now going to have Anti-Christian fundamentalism articles in the newspapers? I don't think so.




I think there are quite a few newspapers that express just as much outrage about fundamental Christian atrocities (bombing abortion clinics etc.) as they do about islamic extremist atrocities. It so happens that there are a lot more of the latter and more globally widespread.


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## Julia (23 July 2011)

Calliope said:


> The alleged shooter.



Looks incredibly like Julian Assange.


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## wayneL (23 July 2011)

explod said:


> A continuing bad omen for industrialisation and capitalism.



As I recall, your comrades, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, et al were many times more murderous... and in a systemized way, not just a lone nutter.



> We have buldozed the trees, broken up the tribes and not provided a replacement for mankind to maintain his family and traditions.




As I also recall, it is the social engineering from the left that is responsible for the breakdown of family and tradition

You are so far off base here Plod have a further think about these things and report back once reality has returned to your world.


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## moXJO (23 July 2011)

Seems loons making death threats isn't new



> Krekar, who came to Norway as a refugee and later was deemed a threat to national security, is now under indictment for making threats against the head of Norway’s Conservative Party, Erna Solberg. State prosecutors confirmed the long-expected indictment to TV2 on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> He had tangled with Solberg when she was a government minister before the current left-center coalition government took over. Even though she no longer has any authority in immigration matters, Krekar said at last year’s press conference that “if a leader like Erna Solberg sends me out, and I die, she will suffer the same fate.” He clarified later that “If I die, those who are the reason for that will suffer the same fate.”
> Krekar went on to say that he had no assassination plan himself but his “followers” would likely carry one out.



http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/12/krekar-indicted-for-making-threats/

news in english
http://www.newsinenglish.no/tag/politics/


Seems the immigration debate had began to simmer there as well judging from comments





> I understand where Norwegians are comming from, prior to mass immigration Norway was a relatively crime free society, now it's not, some parts of Oslo are worse than the worst parts of London, they are becoming ghettos where Norwegians aren't welcome, another stat is that aggrivated rape in Norway has increased massively over the past few years, apparently rape in Oslo is 6 times higher per capita than in New York, the perpertrators are mainly muslim males, the victiums mostly Norwegian teenagers and young women. Immigration and intergration of certain ethic and religious peoples has failed in Europe and it's now failing in Norway. Quite naturally the locals are annoyed, they see there way of life changing for the worse, and that leads to resentment of immigrants and racism.
> 
> You can't force Norwegians and Europeans to continually take in immigrants and refugees from other counteries and regions and not expect problem, people are finally saying enough is enough, hence the rise of right wing nationalist parties in Sweden, the Netherlands and other countries in Europe.





> It's not actually the Socialist Left (SV) party that has cracked down on immigration, Rob, but the Labour party (Ap). SV is in a coalition government with Ap but they have been vocal in disagreeing with Ap on a number of immigration issues in the past year. Moreover, SV has a long track record on being immigration friendly.
> 
> And while Ap has indeed cracked down on immigration, esp cutting back on asylum seekers which grew to an all-time high in recent years, they are not anti-immigration philosophically and they show no racist tendencies. Above all, they don't try to win votes by playing into people's fears the way that FrP does, e.g. the so-called "snikislamifisering".
> 
> ...




http://forum.newsinenglish.no/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172&start=20

Terrible incident no matter what set it off. To kill so many children like that in such a way.


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## Tink (24 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> Terrible incident no matter what set it off. To kill so many children like that in such a way.




Yep very sad to read, especially when it involves children who are so innocent of political agendas


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## explod (24 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> As I recall, your comrades, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, et al were many times more murderous... and in a systemized way, not just a lone nutter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Rubbish waynel, you know that I am for freedom and the three E's  Edcuation, Education and Education.  And therein lies the real solution.   Just one example; well educated women will raise better children and less of them.   And for example, as Muslim children assimilate into the Australian way of life they will become as Australians in all facits.  As with the Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese et al., see the latter are into playing Aussie rules now.

It is easy, as I think on the left, to say I am for those who corrupted the socialist ideal.  Stalin et al were totalitarianist and Hitler for example rose from the people but was in fact on the very far right.

Anyway it is clear that this nut in Norway was a watcher of violent movies, a product of Darth Vader and all the other rubbish that supports things like the war on terror and the very well paying for some, war machine of the great ole us-of-a.

And a roll eyes to you too pal and do try to be  bit more usefull around the place.

I hurt my neck a couple of days back and would to write a lot  more on the subject if I could.  Have a good weekend.


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## wayneL (24 July 2011)

So seeing how you feel there is a disconnect from socialism and said despots, how does this bode ill for capitalism and industrialization?

Haven't you hoist yourself by your own petard?


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## Logique (24 July 2011)

explod said:


> A continuing bad omen for industrialisation and capitalism. We have buldozed the trees...



And burnt coal presumably. Of course there were never massacres in the pre-industrial age.


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## tech/a (24 July 2011)

UBIQUITOUS said:


> Hey GG, did you manage to find out the perpetrator's ideology? I haven't but am quite happy to join the mob and bash some muslims
> 
> **of course this is a dreadful event, which is all to commonplace these days**




This sort of comment has no place on ANY forum
I urge Joe to remove it.


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## Joe Blow (24 July 2011)

tech/a said:


> This sort of comment has no place on ANY forum
> I urge Joe to remove it.




I read the quoted remark as being sarcasm, hence the use of the  smilie. I will wait for UBIQUITOUS to confirm, but I think the point he was trying to make was that it was his view that the thread was started with anti-muslim motives based on the assumption that the perpetrator would be a muslim.

As it turned out, that was not to be the case.


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## UBIQUITOUS (24 July 2011)

Joe Blow said:


> I read the quoted remark as being sarcasm, hence the use of the  smilie. I will wait for UBIQUITOUS to confirm, but I think the point he was trying to make was that it was his view that the thread was started with anti-muslim motives based on the assumption that the perpetrator would be a muslim.
> 
> As it turned out, that was not to be the case.




Quiet correct Joe. Thanks


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## trainspotter (24 July 2011)

tech/a said:


> This sort of comment has no place on ANY forum
> I urge Joe to remove it.




I think somehting got lost in the translation with UBI's post.



> People aren't offended because they saw the sarcastic smilie at the end of my comment and knew what I was getting at. To cut a long story short, *I was having a dig at those on various news-sites were putting their anti-muslim hats on in full expectation that this massacre was carried out by muslims. *
> 
> GG, points out that this was done by a Christian fundamentalist. Are we now going to have Anti-Christian fundamentalism articles in the newspapers? I don't think so. When a Christian does it, he's a madman. If a muslim does it, then...well we know the story.




This is his explanation. When the bombing first started the media whipped themselves into a frenzy about "terrorists" and "muslims" before they knew who the real perpetrator of the massacre is/was. I belive it was an attempt at sarcasm which did not quite hit the mark IMO.

I wonder if they (the newspapers and journos) will offer a retraction now that this tragedy has been found out to be performed by a Right Wing, Christian, Norwegian?

I believe this may be a false flag attack?

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/07/jihadi-terror-attack-in-norway/

Link will provide some of the backup info I am espousing. CNN media was the first to jump and C.N.A. was full of disinformation.



> A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism.


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## tech/a (24 July 2011)

Ok fair enough


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## explod (24 July 2011)

I'll get back to our off topic bit later Waynel.

But the first grab headline is what unfortunately sticks on the jihad slant.  On all sides it is the extreme nutters who spoil the party and give rise in my view to the guise in which the war machines in all thier facits can be legitimised.


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## Garpal Gumnut (24 July 2011)

Joe Blow said:


> I read the quoted remark as being sarcasm, hence the use of the  smilie. I will wait for UBIQUITOUS to confirm, but I think the point he was trying to make was that it was his view that the thread was started with anti-muslim motives based on the assumption that the perpetrator would be a muslim.
> 
> As it turned out, that was not to be the case.




I would like to make it clear that this thread was not started with an anti-Muslim slant.

UBIQUITOUS is entitled to his comment, and I read it as he intended.

The thread was started, with the intent of displaying that innocent children and adults, can have their lives taken or be horribly maimed, by ideologues. 

I do not like Christian fundamentalists, nor Muslim fundamentalists, nor anyone who would commit such a crime. In fact I find fundamentalists as a group abhorrent and well named. Fundament comes from the Latin for ****hole.

The thread was not started as an anti-Muslim thread by the way, however it was no surprise to me that a Religious nut was behind it all.

The matter of mentioning Muslims so much in this reply is a necessary in the reply. My apologies to any of Islam who are offended, I'm not having a go at you or your religion.

gg


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## Knobby22 (24 July 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I
> The thread was not started as an anti-Muslim thread by the way, however it was no surprise to me that a Religious nut was behind it all.
> 
> gg




He was in a right wing Nazi style group.

He said he will state his motives once he goes to court but I reckon it will be about racial purity not religion.


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## Calliope (24 July 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> He was in a right wing Nazi style group.
> 
> He said he will state his motives once he goes to court but I reckon it will be about racial purity not religion.




Problems have been brewing for some time about immigration.



> And earlier this year a report by the Norwegian Police Security Service noted an “increase in the activity of far-right extremist circles” and predicted this would continue.
> It also warned that “a higher degree of activism in groups hostile to Islam may lead to an increased use of violence”, although it concluded that Islamist extremists were the greater threat.
> Kari Helene Partapuoli, director of the non-governmental Norwegian Centre against Racism, said yesterday that fringe groups had hardened their rhetoric about Islam and immigration, which has turned Oslo into Europe’s fastest growing city.
> The percentage of immigrants in the population has grown from 2 per cent in 1970 to 11 per cent. The nation’s 163,000 Muslims make up 3.4 per cent of the population, and analysts say that Islam has been a particular flashpoint.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...vik-was-active-member-of-far-right-party.html


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## moXJO (24 July 2011)

Have not read it myself (don't want to download a virus) but it seems this guy attempted to start a greater movement. 

 Took a comment that summarized '2083 A European Declaration of Independence'



> book
> http://www.wupload.com/file/65239460...ependence.pdf#
> 
> A 1500 page diary, essay, textbook, and ... declaration was issued out from the Norweigen terrorist Anders Behring Breivik. His stance on this publication was simple. Eradicate the islamic takeover manisfesto by breaking down its supporters. He states that Multiculturalists/cultural Marxists are responsible for continueing the spread of Islam throughout Europe. He views himself, and others who share his belief as Justiciar Knights: modern day Knights Templar (the same discussed in Dan Brown's novels). Things to know
> ...


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## moXJO (25 July 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> He was in a right wing Nazi style group.




No they kicked him out because he didn't exactly support their mantra; I think he was looking to convert them. He thought Hitler was a traitor and supports the Zionists over Palestine
I ended up downloading the book and skimmed through it.
He first targets the Marxist creep into western society. It accuses Political Correctness as been Cultural Marxism, along with Feminist movement, university students from the sixties who then became ingrained in the institutions. Also the sexual revolution of degrading morals and weakening society all apparently devised from the Frankfurt school. Progresses to Islam vs Christianity through the ages (about as far as I read). And ends with his diary and how he prepared. Each section is incredibly detailed

His issues seem to be:
Multiculturalism (big bug up his ass about this)
Marxism is overtaking western society

Islam

Fist two on the list were the main ones leading into the third
He seems to think by doing what he did, it will open the door on the issue. 

The worst thing is Norway seems to have a maximum jail term of 21 years


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## Calliope (25 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> The worst thing is Norway seems to have a maximum jail term of 21 years




Norway has probably the world's softest prison system.  






An inmate convicted of murder sunbathes outside the wooden cottage where he lives at Bastoy Prison, Norway's only island prison

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...rison-experiment--catch-UK.html#ixzz1T4KyZgJ4


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## Knobby22 (25 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> No they kicked him out because he didn't exactly support their mantra; I think he was looking to convert them.
> His issues seem to be:
> Multiculturalism (big bug up his ass about this)
> Marxism is overtaking western society
> ...




Great research moJO. Interesting.


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## InvisbleInvestor (25 July 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> All info thus far points to a Christian fundamentalist.
> 
> gg




But the _fundamentals_ of Christianity are _*entirely *_non-violent. A Christian fundamentalist who is violent any way is a contradiction. 

You can't call this guy a fundamental Christian. I think the media has done their job well in tricking most people with this terrible use of words. Fundamental Christian...


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## Calliope (25 July 2011)

He loves uniforms and guns.


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## IFocus (25 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> As I recall, your comrades, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, et al were many times more murderous... and in a systemized way, not just a lone nutter.




Oh god are you for real they were murdering totalitarian governments using a label if not then I guess you goose step your way around with a little mustache with fond memory's.  





> As I also recall, it is the social engineering from the left that is responsible for the breakdown of family and tradition




Yes selective recall...................



> You are so far off base here Plod have a further think about these things and report back once reality has returned to your world.




The joker was a right wing nutter it remains to see if he became more unhinged by the shrill that comes from the claims people like you are so fond on making.


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## wayneL (25 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> Oh god are you for real they were murdering totalitarian governments using a label




Oh Lord please 

These were communist regimes, yes?




> if not then I guess you goose step your way around with a little mustache with fond memory's.




1/ I am not a National Socialist
2/ Neither do I embrace extreme right wing ideology



> Yes selective recall...................




Explain which classically liberal administrations are responsible for social engineering failures. 



> The joker was a right wing nutter it remains to see if he became more unhinged by the shrill that comes from the claims people like you are so fond on making.




Which claims would those be IF?


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## disarray (25 July 2011)

he needed to put more crap on his gun


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## bandicoot76 (26 July 2011)

whats the only thing more abhorrent than mass murder? the mass murder of children thats what! a totally disgusting & sickening act 

how could a person intelligent enough to plan this atrocity be stupid enough to believe that it would produce public support for his agenda?  

the feelings of revulsion, disgust and outrage in  the community after such an atrocity (& this would be the reaction of any sane person!) would be counterproductive to his goal of gaining public support. 

it doesnt make sense, unless it is a reverse psycology or false flag operation... and even if this be true who benefits?

i think everyone, no matter their political beliefs, would agree that the politics should be removed from the situation and this psycho should be tried for what he is... nothing more than a disgusting mass-murderer and child killer!


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## derty (27 July 2011)

Calliope said:


> Norway has probably the world's softest prison system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh it is obvious now. trainspotter you are actually a Norwegian inmate  



moXJO said:


> His issues seem to be:
> Multiculturalism (big bug up his ass about this)
> Marxism is overtaking western society
> 
> Islam



Just add anthropogenic global warming to that list and you have covered three quarters of the General Chat at ASF.


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## moXJO (27 July 2011)

derty said:


> Ahh it is obvious now. trainspotter you are actually a Norwegian inmate
> 
> 
> Just add anthropogenic global warming to that list and you have covered three quarters of the General Chat at ASF.




Wait are you making fun of us conservatives
 Too soon derty.... Too soon 
Yeah I think he did mention GW actually. also recommended moving to Australia and NZ if TSHTF as well. Might get a surprise when they get here .

Media should be labeling him more as a Child killer and playing down his manifesto. Seen to many comments supporting his stance and ignoring the fact he is a loon that traded children’s lives for his own selfish political stance.


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## derty (27 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> Wait are you making fun of us conservatives
> Too soon derty.... Too soon
> Yeah I think he did mention GW actually. also recommended moving to Australia and NZ if TSHTF as well. Might get a surprise when they get here .
> 
> Media should be labeling him more as a Child killer and playing down his manifesto. Seen to many comments supporting his stance and ignoring the fact he is a loon that traded children’s lives for his own selfish political stance.






Yes at the end of the day the guy is a nutjob and murderer. I can't really fathom how someone can commit these acts and not be insane by some measure.


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## Julia (27 July 2011)

derty said:


> Yes at the end of the day the guy is a nutjob and murderer. I can't really fathom how someone can commit these acts and not be insane by some measure.



 Maybe because he's considered a psychopath, such definition not usually being considered a 'mental illness' but rather a personality disorder.


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## sails (27 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> ...The joker was a right wing nutter it remains to see if he became more unhinged by the shrill that comes from the claims people like you are so fond on making.




No words of sympathy for the people in Norway, IFocus? 

 I think you (or other labor people here at ASF) have called many of us "right wing nutters" before now.  Do  you really think there are millions of people ready to slaughter other humans?  Get real.

I have always considered the "right wing nutters" more in a teasing context.  But to try and line up the other side of politics with this psychopath is unbelievably low and offensive to the human race in general.    Shame on you.

I think the coldness and almost heartlessness we are seeing in a supposed effort to defame the right from articles and on forums is far a more worrying trait.  What have we come to?

Labor must be desperate if this is the latest idea to use such a terrible tragedy for political point scoring.

IFocus, have you heard anyone from the right jumping up and down with excitement that so many labor families have been so afflicted?  NO.  If anything, the right see these Norwegian people as human first regardless of their politics.


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## wayneL (27 July 2011)

sails said:


> No words of sympathy for the people in Norway, IFocus?
> 
> I think you (or other labor people here at ASF) have called many of us "right wing nutters" before now.  Do  you really think there are millions of people ready to slaughter other humans?  Get real.
> 
> ...




Not to mention utterly offensive to your's truly. 

I note also that IF has been unable to answer my question in response to that appalling gutter level snipe. 

One particular colloquialism regarding snakes and relative levels of body regions comes to mind.


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## trainspotter (27 July 2011)

derty said:


> Ahh it is obvious now. trainspotter you are actually a Norwegian inmate




I am ?? How did I get dragged into this? Doesn't look like me at all? I have a hairy chest and big feet so it can't be me derty. 

Ifocus ..... you just make me wanna


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## moXJO (27 July 2011)

Threads get funny when someone stirs


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## wayneL (27 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> Threads get funny when someone stirs




Get yer popcorn out Mo.


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## IFocus (27 July 2011)

Sails I was refuting the usual over blown implications from this post nothing more.

To me it clearly represents the issues around this http://crooksandliars.com/breaking-news/az-democratic-congresswoman-shot-eve

When the inference is that Explode supports or is aligned the to the despots named then surely that's wrong.

I note that's seems to have been missed.

As for the comments about the  breakdown of family and tradition then I regret my response as its clearly not a serious debate. 








wayneL said:


> As I recall, your comrades, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, et al were many times more murderous... and in a systemized way, not just a lone nutter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Julia (27 July 2011)

sails said:


> No words of sympathy for the people in Norway, IFocus?
> 
> I think you (or other labor people here at ASF) have called many of us "right wing nutters" before now.  Do  you really think there are millions of people ready to slaughter other humans?  Get real.
> 
> ...



+1, Sails.  Very appropriate comments.



IFocus said:


> As for the comments about the  breakdown of family and tradition then I regret my response as its clearly not a serious debate.



I can't think of anything that would constitute a more serious debate.  
By all means indulge in your political point scoring where you can.  Heaven knows you have few enough opportunities.
But to do it in the context of the Norwegian massacre is in hideous taste.


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## wayneL (27 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> Sails I was refuting the usual over blown implications from this post nothing more.
> 
> To me it clearly represents the issues around this http://crooksandliars.com/breaking-news/az-democratic-congresswoman-shot-eve
> 
> ...




And you seem to have totally missed that Plods poorly thought out inference was that Blevik's actions were somehow symptomatic of industrialization and capitalism. My riposte was to show that there are plenty of murderers flying the socialist/communist banner and how ludicrous his comment was.

You lept to your comrade's defense with a multiplication of these vile inferences that

1/ I am some sort of Nazi
2/ That I (or people like me) am somehow responsible for encouraging Blevik's actions.

It was utterly offensive and way off base and clearly you can't see your faux pas. Is your mind that putrid that you do not realize this?


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 July 2011)

I feel there are a number of things we are all agreed on.

That the killing of innocents such as this in an undeclared war for political gain is heinous.

That the killing of children in the pursuit of ideology is heinous.

That the parents and friends of all the people killed in Norway by this monster are experiencing unimaginable grief.

That the monster is a monster, first and foremost, and that his ideology is complicit in his monstrous crime.

That is where agreement seems to cease.

For debate, and inappropriate at the moment is whether that ideology is shared by others, and whether or not it has parallels in conventional thought and ideals, and whether or not his actions are repeatable by an unhinged minority. With time, and respecting the grief of those grieving, this is reasonable to discuss.

For further debate is whether other ideologies who seem to value little, human life, can afford to take the high ground against their ideological foes as a consequence of this monster's actions.

I haven't named him, and that should be his punishment, a universal agreement that his name will be expunged from the history of humanity.

gg


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## Calliope (28 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> And you seem to have totally missed that Plods poorly thought out inference was that Blevik's actions were somehow symptomatic of industrialization and capitalism. My riposte was to show that there are plenty of murderers flying the socialist/communist banner and how ludicrous his comment was.




You shouldn't be too hard on poor old Plod. If you search his ramblings you will sometimes find a grain of sense;



> On all sides it is the extreme nutters who spoil the party




Maybe he was referring to Brown and Milne.


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## IFocus (28 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> And you seem to have totally missed that Plods poorly thought out inference was that Blevik's actions were somehow symptomatic of industrialization and capitalism. My riposte was to show that there are plenty of murderers flying the socialist/communist banner and how ludicrous his comment was.
> 
> You lept to your comrade's defense with a multiplication of these vile inferences that
> 
> ...




To quote your self " a straw mans argument" the irony........


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## wayneL (28 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> To quote your self " a straw mans argument" the irony........




A straw man argument is creating a false premise as a diversion from the topic at hand. Not applicable at all here.

And you still don't get that you have crossed the line.


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## sails (28 July 2011)

Andrew Bolt had a bit to say on the apparent gloating from the left that the killer states he a conservative christian (even though his evil deeds are not remotely like anything genuinely conservative or christian e.g. the Salvos).  

But it seems that the left are hanging off his every word in an effort to denigrate, implicate and even hold culpable anyone or group mentioned by this deluded nutter.  It doesn't say much for the intelligence of those participating in this from the left, imo.

And, I have noticed a strange lack of sympathy for these young people from labor party families from the left.  Instead we have seen this strange gloating.  And yet, many from the right have expressed sympathy and horror with no thought of the differences in politics.  These Norwegian people are humans first and foremost.

From Bolt:



> HEAR that gloating sound, among the sobs for the 76 people murdered last week by Anders Behring Breivik?
> 
> Hear that cackling among the moans?
> 
> ...




Full article here from the Herald Sun: *Column - Playing with the blood of the dead*

and more from Bolt's blog with links to a couple of other articles:

*On giving a mad murderer dangerous credit*


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## explod (28 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> A straw man argument is creating a false premise as a diversion from the topic at hand. Not applicable at all here.
> 
> And you still don't get that you have crossed the line.




We are products of our Parents and to a large degree their immediate influence.  As we mature it is the education we recieve and the predominant social environment that will shape our general direction.

However the level of our social set and education is that which determines most of the goals we may aspire too.

Some kids have no chance and others have every chance; and on this point what is the point of blaming the individual, to cure such we need to look at the causes then identify a way to cure the desease itself.  The powers that be, political, religious the State/Crown, *control *individuals within these spheres.

Prior to the industrial revolution, in the so called evolved human world, it was the Kings and rulers.   The workers and servants finally figured they were getting a raw deal so they stormed the bastille so to speak and the rest of that is history up to a point.

Earnings and the accumulation of money became the way but it was not long before the good operators rose to the top and took control monetarily.  ie. the Rothchilds et al.

So with industrialisation and capitalism "all men are not equal and *some are much more not equal than others*

This has then steamed up the indians again and there are renewed and bitter struggles between the different idiologies;  the Muslims and hallelujah's are just some.   Due to growing poverty around the world now, this hate is growing more intense. (tell me about it, even on ASF it seems)

Too many people, not enough land to feed and shelter them.   What has the expansionist system, accellerated by the industrial revolution and capitalism, done?

Nothing but destroy.

The new age did lead in education for all in many developed countries and there were many great years, and the old Columbo Plan tried to advance from this angle into the third world too.  However politicians led by big business could not make a buck out of that so instead the natives were introduced to alcohol, cigarettes and fights against so called communism (vietnam) and the war on Terror Irak (he he, the wrong place) and we could go on.

And dont you worry about ole *plod  at all.   Attended a Greens meeting on Tusday and has been busy writing more important things.

This nut who shot down these young people in my view would have grown up with the silver spoon in the mouth, allowed from a young age to play war games and quite probably given a very narrow right wing view of politics, perhaps even impressed by the antics of JWB.

We will probably never know and of course but there will always be extreme exceptions to every rule, but a world based first and formost on materialist values will not lead to good social values and respect for each other.*


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## explod (28 July 2011)

moXJO said:


> Threads get funny when someone stirs




Good point, 

worth going away for a few days; you stirrer


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## explod (28 July 2011)

> =sails;648542]But it seems that the left are hanging off his every word in an effort to denigrate, implicate and even hold culpable anyone or group mentioned by this deluded nutter.  It doesn't say much for the intelligence of those participating in this from the left, imo.




What absolute rubbish, as having had something to do with the aftermarth of Hoddle Street you have no idea of how much I feel the pain for those families.

However dwelling on that point in the clear light of day may well cloud one from looking and trying to understand why it occurred in the first place.  Why wont the world ask the questions to try to solve them.  And they are deep seated social questions which can only be answered by research and education in these spheres.


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## moXJO (28 July 2011)

explod said:


> Good point,
> 
> worth going away for a few days; you stirrer




The heated arguments bring out some funny comments amongst the posters. Often brings a giggle. 

ASF is kill time in-between a mountain of bookkeeping I've been stuck doing the last two weeks.


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## wayneL (28 July 2011)

Plod, you can't be taken seriously, the left is more than you.

Certainly there are many of the left who will of course feel like most of us.

However you cannot reasonably deny that the incident has been used to score cheap and nasty political points.

But not withstanding that I accept that what you say your feelings are is true, you still used it in this very thread to try to get a run on the board and break your duck. IF chimed in and turned it into something nasty. And you two are just a microcosm of the broader left.

Once again, hoist by your own petard.


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## explod (29 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> Plod, you can't be taken seriously, the left is more than you.
> 
> Certainly there are many of the left who will of course feel like most of us.
> 
> ...




Of course and as you may be in your particular belief too.  Respect for all sides and views (even rants) need to be sifted in our search to try and make things better.  And you do, on reflection, do that well.

and on rolleyes


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## sails (29 July 2011)

explod said:


> ...However dwelling on that point in the clear light of day may well cloud one from looking and trying to understand why it occurred in the first place.  Why wont the world ask the questions to try to solve them.  And they are deep seated social questions which can only be answered by research and education in these spheres.





Explod, my apologies if I offended you.  I have seen this elsewhere including the media where some from the left appeared to be hanging off every word in the manifesto of this severely disturbed psychopathic creature and using it as an excuse to make accusations that the right are also somehow just as dangerous.   

The vast majority of normal people from all walks of politics would not take the life of another, let alone innocent children, purely over politics.  I think people who do this are either severely psychopathic and they incite themselves with their own delusions OR they are trained as children/young people to kill as we see in some of the jihad type camps.

How does one ever understand what goes in the head of a psychopath?  I don't think it is possible to draw any sane conclusions from someone as deeply disturbed and anti-social as this killer and his written words should surely only be of interest to criminal psychiatrists and police.

It is certainly unfair to hold any other normal human being culpable in any way just because this deluded monster decides to mention them in his sick writings.  I have heard he also mentions feminists - are they also now considered somehow at risk of murdering children?  I don't think so by a country mile. 

I think the left who have used this as political point scoring need to settle down and get a grip on life.


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## explod (30 July 2011)

sails said:


> Explod, my apologies if I offended you.  I have seen this elsewhere including the media where some from the left appeared to be hanging off every word in the manifesto of this severely disturbed psychopathic creature and using it as an excuse to make accusations that the right are also somehow just as dangerous.




sails, you could never offend me.   I love the free and lively debates and I do suffer from "foot and mouth", highly strung and over eager.  


But thanks for the thought.


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## Julia (30 July 2011)

explod said:


> sails, you could never offend me.   I love the free and lively debates and I do suffer from "foot and mouth", highly strung and over eager.
> 
> 
> But thanks for the thought.



Ah, explod, it's posts like the above that make me feel bad for cynically dismissing your idealistic take on life.

You're one of the few people I know who is genuinely motivated by believing it's possible that the world will become a better place.  I hope you're right.
In the meantime, probably some of us could learn something from your capacity to see the best everywhere.


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## wayneL (30 July 2011)

Let's all hold hands and say OMMMMMMM 

I have no doubt that many rank and file Greens are sincere and I'm sure Plod is also, but it's a bit like the Catholic Church. I know many very sincere and lovely Catholics, but it does not change the sins of the organization as  a whole.

Likewise, what the Greens stand for politically is a putrid version of totalitarian socialism and any supporter of the Greens by default, stands for the same.

As a liberal/libertarian, I cannot absolve even sincere Green Party supporters of this.


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## IFocus (30 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> And you still don't get that you have crossed the line.




I do get it and you are absolutely right I have crossed the line following your lead and sincerely regret it. 

Its certainly not a area for growth and going by you reply's quite poisonous psychologically. 

Don't know how you do it day in day out all your criticism, labeling and insinuations must surely weigh you down.


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## wayneL (30 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> I do get it and you are absolutely right I have crossed the line following your lead and sincerely regret it.
> 
> Its certainly not a area for growth and going by you reply's quite poisonous psychologically.
> 
> Don't know how you do it day in day out all your criticism, labeling and insinuations must surely weigh you down.




No. Because I am on the side of liberty, what our forefathers fought for.


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## IFocus (30 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> No. Because I am on the side of liberty, what our forefathers fought for.




So back to the thread title some one in Norway felt the same way just a little bit more extreme.


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## wayneL (30 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> So back to the thread title some one in Norway felt the same way just a little bit more extreme.




Anyone willing to take some innocent persons liberty and/or life is not a liberal/libertarian.


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## sails (30 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> So back to the thread title some one in Norway felt the same way just a little bit more extreme.




IFocus, that's a very nasty and unnecessary insinuation, imo.

Please tell me how being on the side of "liberty" takes the lives of nearly 80 people and most of those being young people?

Frightened kids watching their friends being murdered, watching a ten year old begging for her life only to have her brains blown out? Terrified for their own lives and texting their parents thinking it might be the last text?

Do you really call this liberty?  The psychopath ends up in prison - has he really achieved liberty?  Get real.

If that is your view of liberty, I think you've lost track of perspective and reality...

Our forefathers fought for liberty and freedom - not this disgraceful twist of your so called "liberty".  Sorry, but these are labor families who have been so aflicted and yet, as a so called labor supporter you have no sadness for these people?  Instead you want to try and align normal, sane people who lean to the right politically with this madman?  Go and join those from the right in grief and sadness at this horrific event.

It is only political because a deeply disturbed psychopath called it political.  It is more of a psychiatric problem than the politics that became his deluded obsession.

Do you have any medical understanding whatsoever of severe psychiatric illness combined with obesessive compulsive disorders?  It's the obsessiveness and compulsiveness that become all encompassing to people such as this killer and they use their often higher IQ for all the wrong, obsessed reasons.  

Normal people do not take guns to anyone, let alone children.


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## sails (30 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> Anyone willing to take some innocent persons liberty and/or life is not a liberal/libertarian.





LOL Wayne.  I use up a few paragraphs to express my disgust and you manage it in one sentence...


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## sails (30 July 2011)

explod said:


> sails, you could never offend me.   I love the free and lively debates and I do suffer from "foot and mouth", highly strung and over eager.
> 
> 
> But thanks for the thought.





No worries, explod...


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## Julia (30 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> Let's all hold hands and say OMMMMMMM



No.   But I understand your mockery.



> I have no doubt that many rank and file Greens are sincere and I'm sure Plod is also, but it's a bit like the Catholic Church. I know many very sincere and lovely Catholics, but it does not change the sins of the organization as  a whole.
> 
> Likewise, what the Greens stand for politically is a putrid version of totalitarian socialism and any supporter of the Greens by default, stands for the same.



Again, I understand what you're saying, but I'll somewhat disagree.

If you were to be someone who feels passionately about, um, saving the planet, being kind to every living thing (even including filthy flying foxes) and has little comprehension of the necessity of a functional economy just to allow citizens to enjoy the most basic of services, then it's likely you're going to find voting for either of the two major parties (which certainly have not covered themselves in glory)
quite unacceptable.  So you'll vote for the silly and very dangerous Greens, by default.

Because, as above, you have no understanding of the vital importance of Australia being able to trade competitively, you fail to get that the Greens don't have the first clue about managing an economy.  And if by chance you have some inkling that the Greens are actually a totalitarian, socialist organisation, then you quite possibly think that's pretty damn OK because it's about time the world was fair to all those who have pretty much nothing while some seem to have too much.

No allowance is made for the fact that many of those who have nothing are in such a position because they have failed to get off their backsides, show some initiative, and work hard.   It's still all good to keep supporting them financially and socially because, hell, that's how it should be.

So, shouldn't we allow these deluded but very kind hearted people the benefit of the doubt, sort of along the lines of that phrase from, I think, the Bible which goes something like :
   "Forgive them for they know not what they do".

PS  I'm not at all sure what has provoked my present magnanimous disposition.  I don't expect it will last long.


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## explod (31 July 2011)

It is wonderful to be in Fairy Land Julia

I have had a few ideas (that's dangerous) overnight and hope to start a new thread on the lines of "The Greens and a New Left";

as this thread needs to remain on topic.

And need to respond to my ole Pal wayneL properly.


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## Calliope (31 July 2011)

explod said:


> It is wonderful to be in Fairy Land Julia




Just as I have long suspected...you are "away with the fairies."


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## IFocus (31 July 2011)

sails said:


> IFocus, that's a very nasty and unnecessary insinuation, imo.




Wasn't meant to be nasty, I wasn't trying to connect Wayne to the actions of a nutter, it was meant to show a disconnect  of a belief and conscience.

A belief in liberty doesn't absolve one of bad behavior towards others on the site who turn up with different political view, at least I haven't seen that in Joe,s  site commandments.

BTW I wouldn't think any one here would not believe in liberty, its certainly not defined by your political views or level social conscience. 

My last word on the matter apologies to all for derailing the thread.


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## sails (31 July 2011)

IFocus said:


> Wasn't meant to be nasty, I wasn't trying to connect Wayne to the actions of a nutter, it was meant to show a disconnect  of a belief and conscience....




It did come across as insinuationg somehow that this nutter's murderous acts were some how being interpreted as "liberty".

If normal people could be so easily incited to commit such horrific crimes, we would all be living in fear for our lives.  

And, it's not only come from you IFocus, some of the media have sadly used it for political point scoring and trying to place some meaning to whatever this nutter has in his manifesto.  It's not worth the paper it's written on except to professionals in criminology and psychiatry.

And the next nutter could just as easily be a labor one, however, there is no way I would think that normal left leaning voters were in any way implicated. 

Agree, let's keep the topic on the situation in Norway without the rather sickening political insinuations that have no grounds, imo.


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## explod (31 July 2011)

sails said:


> It did come across as insinuationg somehow that this nutter's murderous acts were some how being interpreted as "liberty".




I have no doubt that this abhorrent mind had "Liberty" in his rambling manafesto.  Far too often the press will pick up on just a word or two and it speads like wilfire and distorts exponentially.

Just like a message passed around the room, from white it will be black at the other end.


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## wayneL (31 July 2011)

explod said:


> I have no doubt that this abhorrent mind had "Liberty" in his rambling manafesto.




I don't know whether it does or it doesn't, but liberty doesn't just mean MY liberty or white man's liberty. It is liberty for all.

However there are a hierarchy of liberties. One's liberty has no right to impinge on another's. For instance; my liberty to camp in the middle of the street is subordinate to other's liberty of free thoroughfare. Ergo, camping in the middle of the street is not allowed.



IFocus said:


> Wasn't meant to be nasty, I wasn't trying to connect Wayne to the actions of a nutter, it was meant to show a disconnect  of a belief and conscience.




Ok I'll accept that, but it wasn't obvious at the time.



> A belief in liberty doesn't absolve one of bad behavior towards others on the site who turn up with different political view, at least I haven't seen that in Joe,s  site commandments.




What do you call bad behaviour? Disagreement with your doctrine? In case you haven't noticed, you have and have had equal right to air your opinions and political ideology robustly.... without those disagreeing with you trying to invoke site rules to shut you up. 

Hate the sin, love the sinner and nobody is breaking any rules.



> BTW I wouldn't think any one here would not believe in liberty, its certainly not defined by your political views or level social conscience.




But socialist ideology is very much about impinging on individual liberties in favour of some collectivist ideal. That is not liberty.


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## disarray (31 July 2011)

how about the liberty not to have your nation flooded with hostile third world immgrants who subject the native population to outrageous rates of rape and welfare dependence?


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## wayneL (31 July 2011)

disarray said:


> how about the liberty not to have your nation flooded with hostile third world immgrants who subject the native population to outrageous rates of rape and welfare dependence?




This is the folly of leftist ideology, the hierarchy of liberties is FUBAR.


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## disarray (31 July 2011)

which is why in his manifesto he identifies the left as the true enemy to his society and culture


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## wayneL (31 July 2011)

disarray said:


> which is why in his manifesto he identifies the left as the true enemy to his society and culture




Yes, but obviously his MO left much to be desired. 

It will most likely turn out to have been counter-productive.


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## disarray (31 July 2011)

i agree. but as for the counter-productive bit, his manifesto is much deeper than it would appear at first glance (or that the media and its usual emotional response would touch upon). reactions such as the greens calling for limits to free speech by banning right wing blogs actually support his views (and yours) and could very well cause a rise in "right wing" / libertarian activism


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## bandicoot76 (1 August 2011)

disarray said:


> his views (and yours) and could very well cause a rise in "right wing" / libertarian activism




do your research before posting replies like this... libertarianism is neither left nor right wing... it is the belief that you should be free to do whatever you want to do, provided that what you do does not infringe upon on the rights of other people to do the same.

the complete opposite of both nazi'ism (the extreme right) and communism (the extreme left)... frequently we are labeled "right" by the left and "left" by the right.

my personal belief is that the left Vs right political status quo is complete bullsh*t,  just a fabricated situation to keep the people divided and in a constant state of conflict so we are distracted from what/who is really screwing us over!


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## disarray (1 August 2011)

i know what libertarianism is bandicoot. i didn't associate it with the right wing, you just read my response that way.


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## bandicoot76 (1 August 2011)

disarray said:


> i know what libertarianism is bandicoot. i didn't associate it with the right wing, you just read my response that way.




apolagies if i took your post in the wrong context, i saw the "right wing/libertarian" part of your quote as linking the two  ideologies under the same banner rather than meaning 'and/or'. 

those people opposed to libertarian principles are supporting authoritarian/totalitarian rule by proxy (or apathy)


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