# Albo's Coal and Gas Price Cap and Financial Aid proposal



## Craton (12 December 2022)

Apology if this has been posted/discussed elsewhere but Albo's proposed coal and gas price cap along with financial aid will most assuredly dampen SP is those stocks affected, e.g ORG.

So, is it a done deal and will the proposed pass through parliament?
The market seems to think so.

Australia To Impose A Cap On Coal And Gas Prices​                   By Irina Slav - Dec 09, 2022, 2:23 AM CST



> Australia has joined the club of countries imposing price caps on energy commodities with a ceiling on gas and coal prices, announced today by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese.
> 
> The price of natural gas will be capped at $8.15 (A$12) per gigajoule and at $85 (A$125) per ton of coal and the cap will be in effect for a year. The government will provide additional support for coal miners who have higher costs than the cap, the Prime Minister also said.
> 
> ...




Below is from the *ABC*


> Coal and gas price caps and whether they'll lower your energy bills explained​By energy reporter Daniel Mercer
> Posted Sat 10 Dec 2022 at 6:43amSaturday 10 Dec 2022 at 6:43am, updated Yesterday at 11:12am






> When historians look back at 2022, one of the defining features will surely be the sheer scale of an energy crisis almost unparalleled in modern times.
> From the start of the year, when resurgent northern hemisphere economies put a rocket under coal and gas prices, to Russia's invasion of Ukraine that sent those prices into orbit, the past year has been a wild ride.
> 
> In a bookend to the drama, the national cabinet of federal and state leaders thrashed out a deal on Friday to shield consumers from the worst of the energy price fallout.
> ...


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## Dona Ferentes (12 December 2022)

Why is it that I get a feeling of reptilian revulsion when I see and hear Chris Bowen speak?


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## Smurf1976 (12 December 2022)

As a broad comment, caution is required in assessing the impact on any given company.

Firstly because it applies only to domestic market sales and not to exports. Bearing in mind that the domestic market is far smaller than the scale of exports.

Then it gets complex.....

A lot of coal isn't tradeable either due to its quality or simply lack of physical transport infrastructure to enable it to be exported. It never was exposed to international pricing and is instead being sold under contract to whoever. The impact there is zero.

There are situations where the coal mining company and the coal consumer are the same. On a large scale AGL owns the Loy Yang mine and itself uses about 65% of its output with the remainder sold to electricity rival Alinta under long term contract. Only a very minor amount is sold to anyone else. There are other examples like that in other states too.

Even where coal is tradeable, a lot is tied up under longer term contracts the price of which will typically be lower than the spot price at present. But then there's the question of how that price is set - is it a fixed coal price as such or is it calculated based on the price of gas, electricity or something else?

For a company that buys coal and generates electricity (or uses it in industry etc) the direct impact of a price cut is good. That gets complex in the case of electricity given the intent is to push market prices down since competitors also get cheaper fuel. 

For electricity companies their electricity hedging is also highly relevant. To what extent are prices locked in and for how long? That alone gets complex - there are industrial sites where multiple companies jointly hold the supply contract. Eg there's one I'm aware of where AGL, Alinta and Origin are all suppliers to the same site. Bearing in mind AGL's selling Alinta the coal. 

Then there's retailers with hedging contracts with generators and that does extend to gentailers (those who generate and retail) contracting with rivals indeed that's routine. Electricity being about the only industry where listed companies, private companies and government entities contract with each other on commercial terms meanwhile also being direct competitors.

And for another spanner in the works, transport. There are some arrangements where the higher the commodity price goes, the _lower _the transport price. Because from an end user perspective, the choice to burn one fuel versus another fuel depends on the delivered price on site. So in order for fuel A to remain competitive, whoever's moving it takes the hit - it's either that or the physical movement of it ceases.

Point being it's too hard to generalise. Need to analyse each company in detail.


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## Craton (12 December 2022)

Maybe because he, like some reptiles, can't hear too well.

Bowen dismisses gas company concerns​


> By Andrew Brown
> Updated December 11 2022 - 8:43am, first published 8:42am
> 
> Energy Minister Chris Bowen has dismissed criticism from power companies following government plans to cap the price of gas and coal.
> ...


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## SneakyOne (12 December 2022)

One step closer to a state-run economy - any commie's wet dream.


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

SneakyOne said:


> One step closer to a state-run economy - any commie's wet dream.



followed by the oligarch   carve-up , just like happened in Russia and Ukraine                 after the collapse of the Soviet Union


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## SneakyOne (12 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> followed by the oligarch   carve-up , just like happened in Russia and Ukraine                 after the collapse of the Soviet Union



Yes, except it will be the UN / WEF - they will level us with Zimbabwe first. 
Labor's "green" policies will speed up the process too.


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## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

IMO the process will end up costing the taxpayers heaps IMO, it will be shown to save the taxpayer, $200 odd bucks, but the GOV will end up having to spend heaps more taxpayer $ to save it. At the end of the day, the tax payer pays it.

Why not just remove GST from electricity bills for residential customers on welfare for this period, that would save 10% instantly and that is also 10% on the service charge as well as the electricity charge? Easy to do, just tell the billing company to adjust the bill, done.
It was done by the last Govt when they halved fuel excise. 🤣

Time will tell, but it sounds a bit like smoke and mirrors to me, from the article that I posted the other day, apparently there are only two power stations paying more than the proposed cap, for the coal anyway.🤪

Sounds a bit like Luigi the magician (Paul Hogan) and using Maria to distract the audience when he stuffed up a magic trick.
I guess Albo is Hoge's and Bowen is Maria, he always seems to get these $hit gigs, he was silly Billy's fall guy last outing, now the poor bloke looks like he has popped his head up again. 

Can you imagine it, day after the election, arm around Chris's shoulder, "Chris you know we have this really strong commitment, purpose, I mean let's be honest VISION" and we need one of our best men to be able to achieve it, do you know anyone?


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## Smurf1976 (12 December 2022)

The inherent problem with energy, especially electricity, and why it's so often in the news comes down to it cutting across so many different areas, often in conflict with each other.

The technical aspects are absolutely rigid and non-negotiable. A 1% frequency deviation is serious enough to warrant an internal investigation. Beyond 5% and the likely outcome is outright system collapse. The technical aspects of it all are unforgiving and not-negotiable even slightly - this is "hard" physics here.

The economic aspects affect essentially the whole of society given that practically all economic activity has energy inputs.

Energy resources are strategic in nature. They literally start wars either as the subject of conflict, the means of funding it or a means of attacking the enemy.

Energy lies at the heart of many environmental issues. Smog, dams on wild rivers, uranium mining, nuclear waste, acid rain, climate change, ash dams and so on. The history of mainstream environmentalism is to very considerable extent a history of conflict with the energy industry.

Now throw in domestic politics with the voters demanding that all of the above be individually prioritised plus the political parties putting their own ideology over the top.

End result is an unresolvable mess since quite simply the various objectives conflict. It's possible to get a few aligned but extremely difficult to get the lot and that means someone's always screaming.


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

SneakyOne said:


> Yes, except it will be the UN / WEF - they will level us with Zimbabwe first.
> Labor's "green" policies will speed up the process too.



that is still Communism/Socialism( and feudalism )
 the very small elite have everything  , the rest share the pain and suffering 

and Zimbabwe might look like paradise  if their plan is complete ( you can still rise to the top level in Zimbabwe , we are more likely to get a nasty  cross between 'royal families ' and nepotism )

 remember the ALP already have a history of throwing rank and file unionists under the bus ( numerous times ) that is why they need 'dirt files '  to keep the mid/high level compliant 

 maybe it will be easier planned than accomplished  

 and don't think the Liberals are the savior  , they lost their spine decades ago too  go back and read carefully Power Without Glory  a ( fictional ?? ) history of Australian politics ,


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## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

@Smurf1976 not many easy answers, the walls are closing in, coal isn't viable, gas is only worth exporting, the unwanted child is the Australian electricity consumers.

Add to that, the renewables want a rate of return on their investment and we need twice as much installed as is base load requirement, so that the storage can be charged, when the renewables aren't working, who pays for that?

The walls are closing in.

Meanwhile who lends the money to the coal miners, to remove the overburden and expose more seams? So then there is no coal to supply the power stations anyway.

But it's worse than that, as you know, the coal generators have to put units on and off twice a day, which takes time and costs money which they can't recover in the short time they are actually online for, just so the renewables get first dibs.

Oh what a mess and to add to the confusion, we now legislate a reduction, thereby giving the coal generators every excuse to close down, someone needs to charge up the magic wand IMO. 🤣
I have noticed a christmas tree of pole top isolators going in near our place, when I look at the configuration, it appears they want to be able to separate the CBD from suburbia.
Time will tell.


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> IMO the process will end up costing the taxpayers heaps IMO, it will be shown to save the taxpayer, $200 odd bucks, but the GOV will end up having to spend heaps more taxpayer $ to save it. At the end of the day, the tax payer pays it.
> 
> Why not just remove GST from electricity bills for residential customers on welfare for this period, that would save 10% instantly and that is also 10% on the service charge as well as the electricity charge? Easy to do, just tell the billing company to adjust the bill, done.
> It was done by the last Govt when they halved fuel excise. 🤣
> ...



the game is to make you  believe   the government is NEEDED and YOUR support ( instead of the reverse )

 smoke and mirrors and greater dependence on the 'government '


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## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> the game is to make you  believe   the government is NEEDED and YOUR support ( instead of the reverse )
> 
> smoke and mirrors and greater dependence on the 'government '



Just in case you haven't noticed, that is already the case.
Haven't you noticed, responsibility for decision making has been removed from the individual, to anyone remotely involved who can be blamed for the poor decision.


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## So_Cynical (12 December 2022)

There is a rental and housing crisis apparently, so why not a rental cap? or house price cap? cos that would be stupid and politically sensitive.


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just in case you haven't noticed, that is already the case.
> Haven't you noticed, responsibility for decision making has been removed from the individual, to anyone remotely involved who can be blamed for the poor decision.



worked that out in the '70s  but back then it was all 'conspiracy nut stuff '  , you know secret clubs and 'old boy networks '


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

So_Cynical said:


> There is a rental and housing crisis apparently, so why not a rental cap? or house price cap? cos that would be stupid and politically sensitive.



too many ALP politicians  ( and minions ) own rental properties ( they would NEVER limit their own income ) and that is only what is in the pecuniary interest register  , goodness knows what is 'off-the-books' 

 but don't fret is isn't just the ALP


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## divs4ever (12 December 2022)

ever notice how they push 'green energy ' but don't inspire you to go off-grid  ( and not need their 'smart meters )


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## Value Collector (12 December 2022)

So_Cynical said:


> There is a rental and housing crisis apparently, so why not a rental cap? or house price cap? cos that would be stupid and politically sensitive.



That’s been done in a lot of places, for example the rent control in New York.


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## Value Collector (12 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> ever notice how they push 'green energy ' but don't inspire you to go off-grid  ( and not need their 'smart meters )



Because going off grid in most situations is economically worse, for all involved.

Even if you can produce enough electricity for your own needs and have batteries to store it, you need to over size you system so that you can survive the cold and cloudy days, but then on the sunny days you aren’t connected to the grid, so have no way of selling the excess power your oversized system generates. 

Being connected to the grid allows you to sell your excess once your batteries are full, and allows you to import during the low production times, so you don’t need a huge over sized system.


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## Smurf1976 (12 December 2022)

Turning down the politics as far as possible but not to zero and looking at the investment aspects, there are some broader themes here.

1. We are in an inflationary environment. Such circumstances do tend to result in things like price controls, strikes and so on. Happened in the 1970's and there's plenty of examples globally.

2. Price controls usually end up with physical shortages. It does some combination of lowering production and raising consumption. Also tends to prompt de-prioritisation of the activity, industrial action and so on.

3. Big business is as prone to ideology as is politics. Don't for a moment think they won't shoot themselves and shareholders in the foot, indeed it was doing that 30 years ago which helped create the present mess.

And then it goes back to the start, point one. We are in an inflationary environment. Once one side sees fit to raise prices, pretty soon the other side does it too.

Now none of this is new, it's been going on a very long time and plenty's been said about what was coming going back many years on this forum and elsewhere. No surprises here, it's just the expected outcome. Keep whacking your hand with a hammer and it gets sore yes.

As for politics, well Labor versus Liberal is a bit like Channel 7 versus Channel 9 or it's like Airbus versus Boeing. Same thing, just a different name. Note the date of this:


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## qldfrog (12 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> too many ALP politicians  ( and minions ) own rental properties ( they would NEVER limit their own income ) and that is only what is in the pecuniary interest register  , goodness knows what is 'off-the-books'
> 
> but don't fret is isn't just the ALP



The so called rental crisis could easily be solved here in qld as we are supposedly preparing the olympics
Build the games accomodation as public housing and plenty of units available after.but i somehow doubt it will happen.


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## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Because going off grid in most situations is economically worse, for all involved.
> 
> Even if you can produce enough electricity for your own needs and have batteries to store it, you need to over size you system so that you can survive the cold and cloudy days, but then on the sunny days you aren’t connected to the grid, so have no way of selling the excess power your oversized system generates.
> 
> Being connected to the grid allows you to sell your excess once your batteries are full, and allows you to import during the low production times, so you don’t need a huge over sized system.



Hey sunshine, my son has been offgrid for twelve months, with three teenagers they all game and have satellite internet.
He came up last weekend and I asked him how the off grid was going, as I actually do have an interest in the reality of it.
His system is 30kw of panels 15kw BYD blade battery, 13kva diesel auto start generator, that auto starts at 20% battery capacity and shuts down at 60%.
So 20 km south of Collie, which is a pretty cold wet sort of place, it has had 5 starts over the last year and runs for about 1.5 hrs to shutdown.
So he and I are both from an electrical background, we first thought the 15kw battery might be a bit small, but now we are thinking a bigger battery would require more generator run time to recharge two depleted batteries.
The problem most people have is, if the power supply runs past your house as in suburbia, you will have to pay a service fee.
The more people that become self sufficient as E.V's increase and their V2G and V2L capability increases, the price of electricity consumed will go down and the service cost because the electricity goes past the house will increase.
To maintain the system, so everyone has to work out what works best for them.
The son is off grid because he lives on a large rural block and doing the sums, off grid works better, than $hitty rural supply and a huge connection cost plus a service fee. no brainer really.
We just weren't sure our calculations were right, before they bit the bullet.


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## Value Collector (13 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Hey sunshine, my son has been offgrid for twelve months, with three teenagers they all game and have satellite internet.
> He came up last weekend and I asked him how the off grid was going, as I actually do have an interest in the reality of it.
> His system is 30kw of panels 15kw BYD blade battery, 13kva diesel auto start generator, that auto starts at 20% battery capacity and shuts down at 60%.
> So 20 km south of Collie, which is a pretty cold wet sort of place, it has had 5 starts over the last year and runs for about 1.5 hrs to shutdown.
> ...



That kinda proves my point. (Firstly I am not talking about people that live in remote locations with no grid access),   let me run you through the way I weigh up such financial decisions about whether going off grid makes financial sense.

 For most people it only costs around $1 per day to be connected to the grid, so that’s around $365 / year. So going off grid is going to save you a maximum of $365 / year.

But going if grid isn’t free, in order to be able to save this $365 per year by going off grid, you have to do two things which will have negative financial consequences for you, and consume that $365 annual saving.

1, You have to have over sized infrastructure, which can be seen by your sons 30kwh of solar panels with a diesel back up generator, when a smaller solar system and battery and no back up generator would be fine if you had a grid connection. The reduction in capital outlay and maintenance would probably be well worth spending $365 / year by itself.

2, cutting your self off the grid removes the ability to sell your excess power and take part in virtual power plant plans that earn you credits, this alone would probably mean you lose more that $365 per year, especially if there is times during the year you are away on holiday.

3, the capital saved by not having to invest all that extra money into an oversized system can be invested and earn more than the $365 / year grid connection cost.
———————————

Even if you want to go off grid, and set your self up with a huge solar system and batteries, it will still be worth keeping the grid connection intact just to sell your excess each day and remove the need for a diesel generator.

After all are you really “off grid” if you rely on a diesel generator? Technically yes, but realistically you are just connected to another type of grid, which once you factor in capital cost and maintenance my cost you the same as grid connection anyway.

(I know you have mentioned before that in WA, there is some weird rule that means you can’t sell your excess once you have a battery, but this not the rule for most of the country)


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## sptrawler (13 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That kinda proves my point. (Firstly I am not talking about people that live in remote locations with no grid access),   let me run you through the way I weigh up such financial decisions about whether going off grid makes financial sense.
> 
> For most people it only costs around $1 per day to be connected to the grid, so that’s around $365 / year. So going off grid is going to save you a maximum of $365 / year.
> 
> ...



The point I was making that seemed to have escaped you, is the fact, if the grid is available to you as in suburbia, you wont be able to escape that $365 per year not only that but that charge will increase considerably.
As more people become self sufficient with batteries in suburbia, the underlying cost of supplying the service will have to change, from being a consumption based charge, to a service based charge.
So what you are basing your assumptions on, completely eludes me.
By the way, the son has grid access at the bottom of his block and it would cost about $50k to connect, that is why we did the sums.


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## Value Collector (13 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The point I was making that seemed to have escaped you, is the fact, if the grid is available to you as in suburbia, you wont be able to escape that $365 per year not only that but that charge will increase considerably.
> As more people become self sufficient with batteries in suburbia, the underlying cost of supplying the service will have to change, from being a consumption based charge, to a service based charge.
> So what you are basing your assumptions on, completely eludes me.
> By the way, the son has grid access at the bottom of his block and it would cost about $50k to connect, that is why we did the sums.



My original point I made to Divs question was that the reason the government doesn’t encourage people to go off grid is because it is financially worse for everyone involved.

You then seemed to dispute my opinion by using your sons setup as an example, you seemed to be saying that a setup like his is not financially worse than being connected to the grid.

I then just broke down the savings involved in disconnecting from the grid vs the large added costs and revenue losses, which in my opinion show that a grid connection is good value.

—————————
I don’t think the grid is going obsolete, I actually think it’s going to be a very important part of energy trading even for those who are self sufficient.

As I said even your son would benefit from it if he were able to connect.

—————————

Even if we all had large solar systems, batteries and Ev’s that are V2G, there would be enough times each year that we either need to buy extra power or sell extra power to make the grid worth while.


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## sptrawler (13 December 2022)

And I before my sons experience would have agreed with you, I actually have a friend who had a farm off grid 30 years ago, when the grid came close he connected and sold his off grid system to Caiguna roadhouse on the Nullabor.
What I was pointing out was that it isnt black and white these days, obviously you think it is.
IMO as I said, if you are in suburbia, the service cost will increase, whether you are conected or not, if you have a few acres and grid connection is an extra cost i.e there is a surcharge to add bays, an off grid system may be an option.
It's a bit like deep sewage, once it goes past your block you pay for it and have to connect to it.
Even if you dont have a house on the block, many places charge a service fee if it passes.
If you have a small rural block, you can keep your septics, why would you connect to the main sewage?


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## Smurf1976 (13 December 2022)

On grid versus off - I'll simply say that as a whole the grid is very much here to stay and we're going to see far more, not less, electricity used in society.

That said there are certainly situations where off grid makes more sense and they basically come down to circumstances of being a long way from the grid relative to consumption. That's what it comes down to economically. The less you need, the less it's worth spending to connect. Hence even the energy industry itself has small off-grid systems in remote places doing various things - hydro headworks, weather monitoring, even oil pumping. No ideology there, it's just down to what's practical and economic.

Back to the thread topic however, the price cap on coal and gas itself, I do ponder how the various companies will react?

I'm thinking of actions that aren't necessarily rational in the short term but which management might decide to do as part of some broader plan trying to back government into a corner?

Eg shut the mine either outright or via some backdoor means. That might seem irrational but there are precedents in other countries and industries so I do think we could see some "interesting" outcomes here.

Just make sure more rock gets mined with the coal so it's not up to spec?

Gas processing plant has a mysterious breakdown in the depths of winter?

OK, that's all getting a bit speculative and conspiracy like but suffice to say I'll be extremely cautious about all this when it comes to investing. Investing in something where there's a direct conflict with government is fraught with danger.

If I was to make one prediction though it would be based around physical shortage. Bearing in mind that's me looking at the technical (physical, engineering etc) side of it and noting that it wouldn't take much to bring it about. That is, with gas it's a tight supply situation as it is and that being so, pretty much any producer could break the market if they wanted to. Speculation on my part but my guess is someone will do just that.


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## divs4ever (13 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Because going off grid in most situations is economically worse, for all involved.
> 
> Even if you can produce enough electricity for your own needs and have batteries to store it, you need to over size you system so that you can survive the cold and cloudy days, but then on the sunny days you aren’t connected to the grid, so have no way of selling the excess power your oversized system generates.
> 
> Being connected to the grid allows you to sell your excess once your batteries are full, and allows you to import during the low production times, so you don’t need a huge over sized system.



except   ( at least of the rural property ) the grid power isn't reliable 

 also there is nothing to stop you from having one system  that powers the property and and another that is mostly  for sale to the wider grid 

 the off-grid system  probably needs to be a hybrid system  , at least wind and solar , but they are other technologies being investigated , but the energy storage seems to be the biggie ( how do you store weeks/months of surplus energy reserves efficiently ) so you can navigate predictable events ( like the bush-fire season  , or the cyclone season ) which often disrupts grid supply when they events occur


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## divs4ever (13 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The so called rental crisis could easily be solved here in qld as we are supposedly preparing the olympics
> Build the games accomodation as public housing and plenty of units available after.but i somehow doubt it will happen.



getting those units/accommodation made to any sort of standard (  in QLD ) is the problem  , and besides what guarantee is there that the Olympic Games will be anymore than some bizarre sideshow by then ,
 for example will they have to create  trans-gender events ( and villages ) , and what about 'excluded  nations '  that could extend up to one quarter ( or one half ) of the global population ( even more if travel restrictions/medical mandates persist )

 and then we have the myopic  'cheating scandals '

 and the third issue in QLD is the public transport  , it is bad enough if you are ' a sardine ' ( work in an office/business during  normal office hours )  almost impossible if working odd-hour shifts ( the old cartoon  about the IT support staff living in a cardboard box in the car-park is bizarrely appropriate ) and i remember stories of Uni students sleeping in obscure corners between  lectures  and sessions in the libraries ( and their part-time jobs )


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## qldfrog (13 December 2022)

Anyway we are now far off subject.
Guilty myself


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## divs4ever (13 December 2022)

well the price caps are political expedience , if it really mattered ( high energy prices ) all the government had to do is remove the various fees/charges/taxes  on energy ( coal/gas/oil ) used in local consumption ( think of the drop in petrol/diesel prices alone ) , inflation on top of the other taxes should get close to filling the gap


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## Value Collector (13 December 2022)

divs4ever said:


> except   ( at least of the rural property ) the grid power isn't reliable
> 
> also there is nothing to stop you from having one system  that powers the property and and another that is mostly  for sale to the wider grid
> 
> the off-grid system  probably needs to be a hybrid system  , at least wind and solar , but they are other technologies being investigated , but the energy storage seems to be the biggie ( how do you store weeks/months of surplus energy reserves efficiently ) so you can navigate predictable events ( like the bush-fire season  , or the cyclone season ) which often disrupts grid supply when they events occur



That’s why I said I am not talking about people who don’t have the grid as an option, but for the rest of us it’s a cheap back up and cheap access to market.

When it comes to long term storage of energy, It’s possible for each house to have say 12 - 24 hours storage, and then the grid can have different levels of storage.

The end result we need to get to is basically double the amount of renewable generation to what we need, with large amounts of storage from batteries and hydro, and back up gas generation.

Then when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing we can run off the renewables, charge the batteries and hydro and use the excess to make hydrogen.

Then when the renewables production is low, we can drain the batteries and hydro.


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## bk1 (13 December 2022)

It's the nationalisation of Gas and Electricity. Pure and simple.
Except the energy companies will still be expected to pump in capital to develop and maintain the systems.
Lets not talk about exploring for more.
And we are paying for it, a cap is a subsidy that is paid for through taxpayers.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Anyway we are now far off subject.
> Guilty myself



For that reprehensible behaviour frog you should be confined to posting on the FMG thread only for a period of not less than one week. 

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 December 2022)

It would be interesting to see how many associated entities, families and pieces of fluff or toyboys of the ALP Cabinet sold shares in ORG recently. 

These decisions should not be trusted to oligarchs within Government. 

gg


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## Value Collector (13 December 2022)

bk1 said:


> It's the nationalisation of Gas and Electricity. Pure and simple.
> Except the energy companies will still be expected to pump in capital to develop and maintain the systems.
> Lets not talk about exploring for more.
> And we are paying for it, a cap is a subsidy that is paid for through taxpayers.



The prices set as a maximum are quite high, and are triple what drillers were selling the gas for not to long ago, so it’s not that bad.


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## bk1 (13 December 2022)

I will take the view of the AEMO and producers, I'll pass on your opinion.


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## divs4ever (13 December 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It would be interesting to see how many associated entities, families and pieces of fluff or toyboys of the ALP Cabinet sold shares in ORG recently.
> 
> These decisions should not be trusted to oligarchs within Government.
> 
> gg



i   sold my ORG  shares , but in December  2017 ( @  $9.45 )

 ( which is sad because at one time i considered ORG as a 'core  holding ' ,sometimes you just have to take the profit and RUN )


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## Smurf1976 (14 December 2022)

bk1 said:


> I will take the view of the AEMO and producers, I'll pass on your opinion.



AEMO doesn't comment on matters of economic regulation. They'll look at the physical aspects only.

Physical aspects as in gas supply and consumption.

Aiming to be politically neutral, I'll simply observe that there are multiple conflicting aspects to all of this.

One one hand big business in general doesn't seem to be on side with the gas and coal companies. Already we've got Rio Tinto and Alcoa publicly on the side of government, not the coal and gas industry, for that reason. When their own selling prices are fixed but energy prices rise, that simply squeezes their profits, potentially sending them negative. That's a very real issue when you're selling into a global market and the competitors have much cheaper energy than you've got access to.

Obviously the gas companies have a very different perspective.

One the other hand there's the physical supply side and the reality that south-eastern Australia is shifting toward reliance on imports. The Port Kembla (NSW) terminal is physically under construction and the Outer Harbour (Adelaide) terminal is next. With the rather big problem being that government can do whatever it likes with regulating the price of domestically produced gas but it can't do anything at all about the price of imports.

If gas is regulated to $12 but the LNG price is $34 then quite simply nobody's going to ship LNG into those facilities, turn it into gas and blow their money. Business does do the odd silly thing but nobody's that foolish.

That's unless, of course, government comes up with the idea that the LNG imports be sourced from elsewhere in Australia. Not impossible but realistically we'll need Australian flagged ships if they're going to permanently operate in Australian waters transporting Australian gas from one Australian port to another.

Government brings back the Australian National Line?

This could get interesting.....


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