# Traders - How long until you turned a regular profit?



## prawn_86 (19 April 2008)

Ok so this poll is for those who consider themselves traders and use it (trading) as their main income source. Instrument traded doesnt matter.

How long did it take until you were making a consistent profit/hitting your targets?

Preferably those who have been trading for over a year obviously.

Feel free to add comments...


----------



## Trembling Hand (19 April 2008)

*Re: Traders - How long did it take until you turned a regular profit?*

Prawn for me it took over 4 years but I still kept working for more than a year part time. It wasn't until I looked back I realized I had made enough to not worry about outside income.

The hard part is you put to much weight to the good months and forget or hope the bad ones are behind you. Like Nick said in a previous thread you really need to take 3 times you wage to be sure.  I would say being in business you probably need more than that when you way up the risk and lack of security.


----------



## Trembling Hand (19 April 2008)

1- 2 years who voted for that? How would you know after a year?


----------



## Porper (19 April 2008)

It will be interesting to see how many people vote, I wouldn't have thought many ASF members trade for a living, maybe wrong.

Hopefully we will get some comments from the pros as well.


----------



## njc.corp (19 April 2008)

*Re: Traders - How long did it take until you turned a regular profit?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Prawn for me it took over 4 years but I still kept working for more than a year part time. It wasn't until I looked back I realized I had made enough to not worry about outside income.
> 
> The hard part is you put to much weight to the good months and forget or hope the bad ones are behind you. Like Nick said in a previous thread you really need to take 3 times you wage to be sure.  I would say being in business you probably need more than that when you way up the risk and lack of security.




well said ^^

Nick--


----------



## Pager (19 April 2008)

I only really trade Index futures and it took over 5 years.

Until i consistently made money i traded 1 contract only, got to the verge of giving up several times, made just about every mistake you could but through it all learnt from my mistakes and am still learning.

By trading 1 contract and not being greedy i never blew up, each year i had made a net loss but the losses got smaller then i turned a small profit, then i made more from my my futures account then my day job, on one occasion in a week.

Think if i had been a success in a year or less then i wouldn't appreciate the negative side of trading and the emotions that come with that and at some stage i would have blown up and the emotional stress that would have caused would have seen me quit.

I'm forever learning and will forever see myself as a beginner in many respects, the market is a beast that can not be tamed IMO and the day you think you are better or have it sussed is the day it will rip your boll@cks offs.


----------



## prawn_86 (19 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> 1- 2 years who voted for that? How would you know after a year?




Perhaps they have being trading for 5+ years now and have been profitable since their 2nd year.

Just one possibility...


----------



## prawn_86 (19 April 2008)

This is great 

Its good to see how much time and dedication is actually needed if one wants to 'make it' as a full time trader.

I think a lot of people come in with unrealistic expectations, and hopefully this will help set a rough time line for development (myself included)


----------



## MRC & Co (20 April 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> This is great
> 
> Its good to see how much time and dedication is actually needed if one wants to 'make it' as a full time trader.
> 
> I think a lot of people come in with unrealistic expectations, and hopefully this will help set a rough time line for development (myself included)




Would be extremelly rough time guide.  Depends on so many factors.  

This is only my second year of consistent "trading" and was profitable since my first few weeks (perhaps luck at first) and have been ever since.  Though, there is definately room for MUCH improvement and increased consistency!  

I also mirror the rest of Pagers sentiments.


----------



## Trembling Hand (20 April 2008)

I guess the question is at what level can you say its truly your main/only source of income. 

Sure you can turn a profit right from the start with a bit of luck and proper education. But if you made $25,000 the first year is that it? Have you made it. At what level long term is profitable. I would put it well over $100,000.

If you come from a wage earning back ground your target is probably to match that. But I would say thats wrong. It would be quite easy to match your wage for a year or two then come into a tough patch and make nothing for months. Add the cost of running a 'real business' into that and you are all of a sudden way behind.

Not to mention the added cost of being self employed. Try getting a house loan as a trader with $80,000 tax year profit(which before cost was probably over $100,000 profit). Or rent a house. 

I use to help people start business. The biggest mistake they ALL made was the "I'm earning XX now if I can find something to replace that I will be happy" line. I would always say you need to find something that will give you a profit 4 times that or nothing. Thats would be my view for two reasons.

1. Most people don't get to half of there dreams. If you dream is to replace your wage by working for yourself what will happen if you only make it halfway there??
2. And you are taking on a big risk working for yourself. If that was a single trade you need a bigger risk to reward payout to justify the stress/lack of holidays/Problems etc.


----------



## tech/a (20 April 2008)

I'm one of those who dont dream of trading for a living.
Couldnt think of anything worse. Id be bored out of my brain in the first week.

While I have my own Company the point made by TH refering to cashflow and banks is very important. In an overall investment plan you'll involve lenders and at times heavily---cashflow and capital base/equity will be of paramount importance.
I also agree that if you wish to trade for a living you'll need a gross of 3-4x your old working wage.
To me trading/longer investing is part of my overall financial strategy.

Regular profit in relation to thethread means just that a consistent regular profit.
Of course timeframe may see you regular for 1 mth and not over 6 mths.

If you can turn a regular profit---you'll know you can---consistently.


----------



## nizar (20 April 2008)

tech/a said:


> I'm one of those who dont dream of trading for a living.
> Couldnt think of anything worse. Id be bored out of my brain in the first week.
> 
> While I have my own Company the point made by TH refering to cashflow and banks is very important. In an overall investment plan you'll involve lenders and at times heavily---cashflow and capital base/equity will be of paramount importance.
> ...




Tend to agree with this.

Being in front of a screen 6-12 hours a day isn't ideal for the sort of lifestyle Im looking for.

Thats why I trade weekly and am further looking to develop forex systems that can be traded in an automated fashion.


----------



## prawn_86 (20 April 2008)

As the first post stated this is for those who DO trade full time, so those who are looking at making a majority of their income from trading have a rough idea of how long it can/does take.


----------



## julius (20 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not to mention the added cost of being self employed. Try getting a house loan as a trader with $80,000 tax year profit(which before cost was probably over $100,000 profit). Or rent a house.




TH how do you actually deal with this? Does trading income carry more weight if the trader has business status ?


----------



## Trembling Hand (20 April 2008)

No. Sit across the desk of a loans manager and watch their face turn to horror when they realize the company profit that they have just said looks good came from daytrading. :aufreg:

Not saying you well not get one but its going to cost ya. Every thing will cost you.


----------



## tech/a (20 April 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> As the first post stated this is for those who DO trade full time, so those who are looking at making a majority of their income from trading have a rough idea of how long it can/does take.




There are a few here and a few I know not here who through their trading could comfortably live off it,but have other business interests and have no intention of throwing everything else in and just trading.
There seems also to be plenty here who may be considering doing the same.

Why is it that such emphasis is placed on trading for a living being a benchmark for success.
Those in the position described above are generally in more of a position to return consistent gains capable of supporting a lifestyle (Through Trading) than those who have one income source---trading.


----------



## prawn_86 (20 April 2008)

tech/a said:


> Why is it that such emphasis is placed on trading for a living being a benchmark for success.




Because that is the question for this poll, nothing about if the person is a "success" or not



tech/a said:


> Those in the position described above are generally in more of a position to return consistent gains capable of supporting a lifestyle (Through Trading) than those who have one income source---trading.




Hence why it is a question for those who derive their *main income *from trading.


----------



## professor_frink (21 April 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Ok so this poll is for those who consider themselves traders and use it (trading) as their main income source. Instrument traded doesnt matter.
> 
> How long did it take until you were making a consistent profit/hitting your targets?
> 
> ...




Like almost everyone else, I was trading for years part time before even considering going full time- I didn't really have any profit targets as such- was mainly concerned with how I had managed a trade after it was completed rather than how much I had made or lost.

Looking back at things now, I wouldn't have used the word regular to describe my profits until 2005, almost 4 years after I first started punting. And here I am 3 years later still trying to improve



Trembling Hand said:


> No. Sit across the desk of a loans manager and watch their face turn to horror when they realize the company profit that they have just said looks good came from daytrading. :aufreg:
> 
> Not saying you well not get one but its going to cost ya. Every thing will cost you.




HA! I didn't even bother trying. Mrs Frink found out how much the bank would lend her on her own, and I just made up the difference from the trading account to avoid just that very problem


----------



## Trembling Hand (21 April 2008)

I would love to hear from some of the people who have said it took less than a year for their trading to become their MAIN source of income. I find that amazing. That after such a short time in the market you can draw income from a trading account.

Have the 6 that voted less than 1 year found it that easy to pull grocery money and rent (etc) on a weekly/monthly basis out of the market or have they misunderstood the poll?


----------



## prawn_86 (21 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I would love to hear from some of the people who have said it took less than a year for their trading to become their MAIN source of income. I find that amazing. That after such a small short time in the market you can draw income from a trading account.
> 
> Have the 6 that voted less than 1 year found it that easy to pull grocery money and rent (etc) on a weekly/monthly basis out of the market or have they misunderstood the poll?




Me also TH. And i would also like to know how long they have been trading for now. IE - how long they have been consistently profitable...


----------



## Porper (21 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Have the 6 that voted less than 1 year found it that easy to pull grocery money and rent (etc) on a weekly/monthly basis out of the market or have they misunderstood the poll?




I suppose you would vote for less than 1 year if you were already consistantly profitable before turning Pro.

To me I can't see why anybody would give up their job to have a go at trading full time without knowing as near to 100% as possible that you would succeed.

Also, let's not forget this is a chat forum and some members will be less than honest.


----------



## ice (21 April 2008)

It's an anonymous poll, so why would participants bother to be less than honest?

ice


----------



## IFocus (21 April 2008)

Profits that come within one to two years from trading often get given back at a later date as the market conditions change but I do know a trader who was and still is profitable from day one 8-9 years later but shes one out of the box


----------



## Spaghetti (22 April 2008)

IFocus said:


> Profits that come within one to two years from trading often get given back at a later date as the market conditions change but I do know a trader who was and still is profitable from day one 8-9 years later but shes one out of the box




This is me. Straight away was making good money. This was perhaps a bad thing for long term as few lessons learned. Now doing worse than my very first month!


----------



## Julia (22 April 2008)

According to the poll more than 70% took more than three years to be profitable or are still not yet profitable.

I wonder what a similar poll result would be if the question were to be asked of investors?


----------



## Trembling Hand (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> According to the poll more than 70% took more than three years to be profitable or are still not yet profitable.
> 
> I wonder what a similar poll result would be if the question were to be asked of investors?




Would depend on when you ask I would think. Obviously All that started something like a buy and hold in April 03 would be doing a lot better than those that started in April 01 or October 87 etc. Would you agree Julia?


----------



## Julia (22 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Would depend on when you ask I would think. Obviously All that started something like a buy and hold in April 03 would be doing a lot better than those that started in April 01 or October 87 etc. Would you agree Julia?



Yes, of course.  The only valid comparison would be probably over a period of about ten years.
I'm just a little surprised about the results of the poll.  Should be a good warning to all those young hotshots who are going to live off their trading with a start-up capital of $40,000 or so!


----------



## nioka (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Should be a good warning to all those young hotshots who are going to live off their trading with a start-up capital of $40,000 or so!




 Don't warn them off. They are putting funds into the market that filter through to those of us who are not so impatient.


----------



## Trembling Hand (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Yes, of course.  The only valid comparison would be probably over a period of about ten years.
> I'm just a little surprised about the results of the poll.  Should be a good warning to all those young hotshots who are going to live off their trading with a start-up capital of $40,000 or so!




I'm with you. I would still like to see how someone could live off trading after such a small period of time (less than 2 years)And how they did it. Especially since most traders start with a small capital base. Just the break even point after tax, expenses and living cost is way high.


----------



## roland (22 April 2008)

I actually voted as not made a profit yet, but actually if I look at my entire trading timeframe, I am in profit (after tax etc.).

Up until May last year, like most, I was well in front and if the poll was done then, I would have voted that I was making a regular profit.

In a good month, I can usually draw a "regular" profit for the month, then give it all back the next.


----------



## MRC & Co (22 April 2008)

I will make this post and I will make it once, as I HATE the bias from these "old and experienced" having a go at "young hotshot" either directly as in this post, or through insinuation on other threads.  I know other "young hotshots" feel the same.  Thanks to the more knowledgable guys here who support us young traders with widsom and with no need to make condescending remarks, you know who you are.

I am not the only "young hotshot" making a decent amount of $$ in my first couple years on the site.  I know another but I do not want to drag him in, he can enter at his own will.

This is the truth so take it for what you will.

I quit work after working the first half of this financial year.  So far I have made 12k to live off entirely through trading once quitting work.  Not going to live off that and increase the capital base long-term (hence why I stated I am going to work part-time to cover living costs in another thread).

Now, it has been enough to live off (cheap rent and eat most meals at home, barely leave the house so not much expense on petrol and I have actually been able to save beleive it or not).  I have taken the philosophy of living cheap since quitting work and since I have spent the majority of 16 hours a day studying, I have barely needed to leave the house, except to play my sports.

Tax will get me, however since PAYG through 6 months working, the tax return may not be too bad this year.  

Now what is my capital base, this has also been stated on another thread.  I will not keep putting it out there as I do not see most here revealing much at all about their trading, capital base, yearly % income averaged over their "full-time trading career".  Though I freely discuss this with those I talk to privately.

And I am also not saying I will continue to be successful, but doing all in my power to ensure I trade what suits my personality and to protect my capital base to ensure longevity in this game.  This is the key to me at the moment, until I have my set-ups and tradeplan downpat.  Position trades on equities are getting there and I intend to utilise Radge to help refine this.  Intraday futures trading has just begun, so I cannot comment on this yet but most of my current strategies and ideas are through the knowledge of John Carter and Gary Smith oh and I should add Brent Penfold in there, with my own additions and ideas added.

I would certainly rather be learning what I am now (it has been WELL worth the time off), than be 50+ and so scared to take a chance so just dump my money in blue chips and "hope" they continue to move up.  Perhaps this suits your personality, nothing wrong with that.  But keep your direct insults to yourself.  As far as fundamental analysis on long-termers, I have my own little portfolio of those too, through thorough research and I have taken the time to study F/A myself, helped immensly by my previous education.

You do not have to be the next great trader in the news to make a living from this business, plenty do it on a daily basis, of course you need consistency and a large capital base and most realise this is the key.  But the key is you have to TAKE A CHANCE.  

I think it is fantastic to see those trying (insinuation about the 40k was based on jersey no doubt, who put the truth out there to learn from and who stated he intended to keep working as long as it takes, posts like the ones above definately do not help him), at least they are not scared to face the world and do what they want to do, not just stay in their secure job and gain a secure income which is FAR EASIER to do!


----------



## MRC & Co (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Yes, of course.  The only valid comparison would be probably over a period of about ten years.




Would it?

Perhaps you have not seen the charts throughout 1900-2000, particularly the middle of the century.


----------



## nioka (22 April 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> I will make this post and I will make it once, as I HATE the bias from these "old and experienced" having a go at "young hotshot" either directly as in this post, or through insinuation on other threads.  !



 Maybe it is not bias, maybe we have "been there and done that". Think about the "hot shots" at Opes etc, etc. The 5% success rate is about right as I see it. I don't like it when someone is encouraging others to try something that I know has a very high chance of failure. Some will succeed but it will only be at the expense of the losers. In most cases it is necessary for someone to lose for another to gain when it comes to trading.


----------



## professor_frink (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Yes, of course.  The only valid comparison would be probably over a period of about ten years.
> I'm just a little surprised about the results of the poll.  Should be a good warning to all those young hotshots who are going to live off their trading with a start-up capital of $40,000 or so!




young hotshots!!

you sound like my nanna

:couch  :hide:


----------



## Porper (22 April 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> I am not the only "young hotshot" making a decent amount of $$ in my first couple years on the site.




I can't find any post that says you are a young hotshot ??????????

Besides, what makes you think that you are ??????????

Arrogance will kill you in the market just when you think you are invincible.


----------



## MRC & Co (22 April 2008)

Porper said:


> I can't find any post that says you are a young hotshot ??????????
> 
> Besides, what makes you think that you are ??????????
> 
> Arrogance will kill you in the market just when you think you are invincible.




I agree, arrogance already killed a portion of my trading account last year when I was on a role, as stated in other threads.  I freely admit all my wrong doings and keep a spreadsheet filled with them.

"Young hotshot" insinuates a young person wishing to trade for a living in the aforementioned post.  Not neccissarily arrogance.  It was directed at Jersey, who does not appear arrogance whatsoever.  

Nioka, I encourage all to protect their capital first, as I stated.  5% succeed, but how many really try?  Have they written and precisely followed and recorded, analysed and updated a trade plan?  Who did they get their trade plan from or who helped create it?  This is (having a precise trade plan) more important than the actual set-ups IMO.  

How would people such as you and Julia fare in the timeframe I stated above?  This could have harmed an entire investment lifetime until this period was broken in the 80s.  How do you know we are not entering a similar period?  How do you know your banks will recover more than inflationary pressures over the next 10-20 years?  Are you currently better off than an experienced trader starting as of today?  

I already stated I may not succeed, only for now I am.  But I appreciate the randomness of the markets and am always in fear of it.  I always think I will loose from the second I click the execute button and hence have measures taken to protect being wiped out.


----------



## Trembling Hand (22 April 2008)

I guess if this is a thread about turning a regular $ from trading for your income its going to be wildly diff from person to person. 

I started my first biz at the age of 22 with nothing more than unrealistic words and a promise to work myself into the ground. And work myself into the ground I did. Didn't have a holiday for 3 years, worked 7 days a week for the first year, earned less than had I been on the dole, slept in a store room for 2 years  BUT most profitable time of my life in terms of experience just not $$. 

I would say if there is any time to be a hotshot its when you are young. You just may make it. And if you don't who cares lots of time left to be conventional.


----------



## MRC & Co (22 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I would say if there is any time to be a hotshot its when you are young. You just may make it. And if you don't who cares lots of time left to be conventional.




Exactly TH.  One of the few guys who put his money where his mouth is.

Great experience and if it works, great, if it does not, you are in a similar position anyways and you will learn more and probably have more fun (including stress, which can be fun in it's own right), than anyone who spent 50 years in stability.

Whether it be trading or starting your own business (which can be the same), if you have the drive, and take the chance (of course an educated chance), then you are already in a better situation than 95% of those who "try".

LJ Hooker went bankrupt multiple times didn't he?  Just one example.  Of course, he is one of the success stories.  Too many people are bound by fear and it is a BIG step to leap out of that mentality.  

Give me a fun life doing what I want anyday even if I end up poor, over a boring, daily grind.


----------



## tech/a (22 April 2008)

Passion is often mistaken for arrogance.

I agree with TH.
If your not outside your comfort zone your not really pushing your boundaries.
If you dont push your boundaries then you wont grow.

Unbridled enthusiasm must be encouraged.
You'll learn more from failure whilst pushing your boundaries than from success.

If your doing what you want to do everyday you'll not be poor!


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2008)

I think few will confuse tenacity and purpose with arrogance. Of course, the arrogant will always add arrogance to the mix.

Perhaps arrogance is often mistaken for passion... dunno.


----------



## Porper (22 April 2008)

wayneL said:


> I think few will confuse tenacity and purpose with arrogance. Of course, the arrogant will always add arrogance to the mix.
> 
> Perhaps arrogance is often mistaken for passion... dunno.




There is a big difference between arrogance and drive/purpose i.m.o. maybe more difficult to tell on a forum, very easy in real life.

I met a person from this forum not too long ago with a so called arrogant attitude and he wasn't like that at all.Obviously has drive, big difference.  Arrogance to me is talking yourself up all the time and being condescending to others.

Having said all that some of the top achievers appear arrogant, and maybe choose to be that way because it helps them stay on top.Tiger Woods comes to mind.


----------



## wavepicker (22 April 2008)

I first started in the markets in 1997 with 15K and turned into 400K by April 2000. Six months later I was lucky to pull half that out of the market and thankfully used the cash to renovate my house before getting married. 

I could not really call myself a trader at that time as I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, throwing as much as I could into the market and was trading mainly off tips and rumours. No game plan, no strategy, and no money management. It was the worst possible start to trading one could imagine because I thougth I could do no wrong. The next 3 years were roller coasters, profitable one year and blowing accounts the next, but that is when I would say I gave more thought to my trading. In total blew up 4 accounts, starting from scratch again each time until it got pounded into my head what I needed to. 

One day it finally dawned to me what I needed to do. SURVIVE.
If I could survive and make it my number one priority, the profits would slowly come by themselves. So ones first priority is not to get rich, but survive, because most do not survive past the first year.

In fact this turned out to be the case, from 2003 onward I have been consistantly profitable, initially not great returns, but gradually improving every year until now whereby on I would return the average wage which I am happy with as a part time trader. 

Aside form the need to survive, I would say having the discipline and patience to wait for the right trades to come along are the most important traits to attain in this business. Trade the 80/20 setups and try to stack the cards in your favour as much as possible and stuff eveything else. Also perseverence, and tough mindness are a must in my opinion.

I think TH is right with what he says. I would say for most that persevere it would take anything between 4-10 years of experience before they became CONSISTANTLY  profitable.

Just my thoughts


----------



## professor_frink (22 April 2008)

wavepicker said:


> I first started in the markets in 1997 with 15K and turned into 400K by April 2000. Six months later I was lucky to pull half that out of the market and thankfully used the cash to renovate my house before getting married.
> 
> I could not really call myself a trader at that time as I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, throwing as much as I could into the market and was trading mainly off tips and rumours. No game plan, no strategy, and no money management. It was the worst possible start to trading one could imagine because I thougth I could do no wrong. The next 3 years were roller coasters, profitable one year and blowing accounts the next, but that is when I would say I gave more thought to my trading. In total blew up 4 accounts, starting from scratch again each time until it got pounded into my head what I needed to.
> 
> ...




well said WP


----------



## trishan9390 (22 April 2008)

Porper said:


> Having said all that some of the top achievers appear arrogant, and maybe choose to be that way because it helps them stay on top.Tiger Woods comes to mind.




And the Australian cricket team. :topic



Disclaimer: South African cricket fan


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2008)

Porper said:


> Arrogance to me is talking yourself up all the time and being condescending to others.



Mmmmmm, yes. 



Porper said:


> Having said all that some of the top achievers appear arrogant, and maybe choose to be that way because it helps them stay on top.Tiger Woods comes to mind.



TW doesn't seem arrogant to me... focussed, confident, knows his ability, dour maybe, but not arrogant. You won't hear him bleating the "you're all muppets, lucky to to be basking in my greatness" garbage we are often subjected to elsewhere (as far as I know anyway).


----------



## Porper (22 April 2008)

wayneL said:


> TW doesn't seem arrogant to me... focussed, confident, knows his ability, dour maybe, but not arrogant. You won't hear him bleating the "you're all muppets, luck to to be basking in my greatness" garbage we are often subjected to elsewhere (as far as I know anyway).




Yes, maybe he was a bad example.He doesn't have much positive to say about his fellow competitors though.Psychological games no doubt.

Now you live in England Wayne (my old home), you will have no doubt met or seen some of the football players over there.If you want a definition of arrogance, look no further than some of them.


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2008)

Porper said:


> Yes, maybe he was a bad example.He doesn't have much positive to say about his fellow competitors though.Psychological games no doubt.
> 
> Now you live in England Wayne (my old home), you will have no doubt met or seen some of the football players over there.If you want a definition of arrogance, look no further than some of them.



Fortunately, I have so far been spared from the experience, but I know what you mean. Don't forget I've been around equestrian and racing my whole life... just like footballers. Different clothes, bling, cars etc; but same deal 

Repugnant.


----------



## MRC & Co (22 April 2008)

tech/a said:


> Passion is often mistaken for arrogance.
> 
> I agree with TH.
> If your not outside your comfort zone your not really pushing your boundaries.
> ...




These are my sentiments.

Thanks Tech.


----------



## theasxgorilla (22 April 2008)

trishan9390 said:


> And the Australian cricket team. :topic
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: South African cricket fan




Yes, it's off topic but I was thinking exactly the same thing.

I'm an Aussie and love the fact that the cricket team is so successful.  I remember those darker days in the 80's when the Windies and England used to hand us our proverbials on a plate.

But the word 'ruthless' is often used to describe the way in which Australia goes about winning.


----------



## Julia (22 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I'm with you. I would still like to see how someone could live off trading after such a small period of time (less than 2 years)And how they did it. Especially since most traders start with a small capital base. Just the break even point after tax, expenses and living cost is way high.



TH, thank you for expanding and clarifying what I said with my now much criticised "hot shots" post.

MRC& Co:  you haven't expressed an adverse reaction to TH's above comment, so I can only assume it was my 'young hot shots" bit that annoyed you so much.
You are quite right to take me to task for that expression.  It has a pejorative and critical tone. 

It was absolutely not directed at Jersey who has been so forthright and honest with his questions and so ready to take advice.  I don't recall him at any stage being arrogant in his aspirations.

But from time to time young people do come on to ASF with obviously unrealistic expectations of what they can achieve with minimal capital and less experience.  It's not unreasonable for older people to warn against these expectations.

You have described your own success.  Congratulations.  You've obviously worked hard and made real progress. However, I don't think too many people would regard $12,000 p.a. as a reasonable living.  Fine if you can live at home etc., but not fine if you are going to have a family and a mortgage etc.


----------



## Julia (22 April 2008)

professor_frink said:


> young hotshots!!
> 
> you sound like my nanna
> 
> :couch  :hide:



Ah, the wisdom of grandmothers.

Anyway, Frinky, you really are the archetypal true grit real life hotshot, aren't you?  Don't tell me you have been fooling me all this time.


----------



## nizar (22 April 2008)

Julia said:


> However, I don't think too many people would regard $12,000 p.a. as a reasonable living.




LOL i was thinking the same thing.


----------



## tasmanian (22 April 2008)

Im pretty sure hes made $12000 since halfway through this financial year.Which puts him on track for around $20,000 if he can keep it up.

Not a bad start Id say and he is getting a part time job to cover living expenses.Seems a pretty good plan and start to me.Anything can happen though and probaly will but you never know if you never gnly live once!!!

Who knows in a couple of years he could eb pulling $100,000+


----------



## Julia (22 April 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> How do you know your banks will recover more than inflationary pressures over the next 10-20 years?






> I would certainly rather be learning what I am now (it has been WELL worth the time off), than be 50+ and so scared to take a chance so just dump my money in blue chips and "hope" they continue to move up





Aren't you being somewhat presumptuous here as far as Nioka and I are concerned?  Not to mention rude?   How do you know what chances any of us may or may not have taken?  Is it any of your business?

 How do you know how either or both of us manage our investments?   I don't know if Nioka currently has bank shares or not.
You seem to assume that I do.   Actually, I don't at present.   For some reason you appear to assume that I am purely a 'buy and hold' investor, or as you so critically  suggest, 'buy and hope' . You also assume older people  only buy 'blue chip' stocks.  Lots of assumptions there.

 I have no idea why you imagine anyone who doesn't describe themselves as a "trader' is precluded from making appropriate decisions about buying and selling as the market changes.

For all you know, I may have no shares at all at present.

So, get angry about perceived 'put down' language, viz hot shots.  I take the term back 100%.   But don't get angry when people who may just have  acquired a bit of experience along a difficult pathway suggest that making a viable living from trading on a small capital base is less than easy.


----------



## nizar (22 April 2008)

tasmanian said:


> Who knows in a couple of years he could eb pulling $100,000+




I dont disagree.


----------



## jersey10 (23 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Yes, of course.  The only valid comparison would be probably over a period of about ten years.
> I'm just a little surprised about the results of the poll.  Should be a good warning to all those young hotshots who are going to live off their trading with a start-up capital of $40,000 or so!




I never said i was going to live off my trading with a start-up capital of $40 000 with no other income.  I said i have a trading capital of $40 000 and i have reduced the work load of my 'normal' job from 5 days per week to 4 days per week.  So in effect i still have 4/5 of my 'normal' income and $40 000 to use for trading.  I then went on to say i believe i could make 50% on that 40k over a period of 12 months with the help of The Chartist set ups.  Only time will tell if i am good enough to do this.  A large proportion of the time i no longer spend at my 'normal' job is now spent learning about trading and developing a plan.

Jersey10


----------



## julius (23 April 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> I intend to utilise Radge




in a can


----------



## MRC & Co (23 April 2008)

Mine was a generalisation, in defence of a generalisation.  No harm intended either, so will leave it at that.  

Tasmanian and Jersey said the rest (the part where you mentioned 40k and young insinuated Jersey, obviously we interpreted wrong).  12k in <4 months.  Still not a great income, only using it to help fund my study and gain experience for the moment.  Then, will try to maintain positive figures to build the capital base while I work part-time.  

I do not live at home.  No family, no mortgage (do not want one when I can pay rent as opposed to interest and use the capital to potentially generate larger returns).  Just my theory anyways.  I do realise it is much more complex than this, but I have done the figures and this is my conclusion.  

All the best.


----------



## MRC & Co (23 April 2008)

julius said:


> in a can




LMAO!!!!!!


----------



## JTLP (23 April 2008)

I think i've been a pretty unlucky kid. Got into the markets in October '07, and saw a 15% increase in my holdings pretty rapidly. Started to buy and sell (thinking I was it and a bit and going on rumours, ramps etc) and got burnt pretty badly. My losses for the year are about 2% of my income (which may not seem a lot) but that 2% is priceless to me in the lessons learnt!

If there is one thing that life teaches you, is that you never stop learning.

I am currently only turning a profit off 1 of my stocks (out of a total of 7). My losses range between 4% and 60% (wish I knew about stop losses!). Hopefully I can start to turn a profit next year (ableit a small one).

This site has been invaluable with all the technical skills learnt. I work full time and imagine trying to DT with Commsec & your boss walking past every 5minutes :.

One last thing I have learnt the hard way...sometimes the fundamentals are just not match for the technicals...


----------



## MRC & Co (23 April 2008)

Sounds like you could do with adding some shorts to your portfolio JTLP, especially if the lower timeframe charts turn back downwards.  

Don't think you can do this through Commsec however.

F/A and T/A both have their place, as do inter-market analysis, sentiment indicators and seasonality.  Just have to work out which fit into your trade plan and how you are going to incorporate them, I currently use peices of all 5 in my trading plan, some hold far more weight than others.


----------



## Julia (23 April 2008)

jersey10 said:


> I never said i was going to live off my trading with a start-up capital of $40 000 with no other income.  I said i have a trading capital of $40 000 and i have reduced the work load of my 'normal' job from 5 days per week to 4 days per week.  So in effect i still have 4/5 of my 'normal' income and $40 000 to use for trading.  I then went on to say i believe i could make 50% on that 40k over a period of 12 months with the help of The Chartist set ups.  Only time will tell if i am good enough to do this.  A large proportion of the time i no longer spend at my 'normal' job is now spent learning about trading and developing a plan.
> 
> Jersey10



Haven't I clarified this?  Although I'm not sure why I should need to, really.  The only connection was the arbitrary figure of $40,000.  And I said "$40,000 or so".  That's the sort of figure which is frequently mentioned by people as they ask the question so often asked before of 'can I live off trading.......' etc.

I simply don't know why you and MRC take a general comment as being personal.


----------



## professor_frink (23 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Ah, the wisdom of grandmothers.
> 
> Anyway, Frinky, you really are the archetypal true grit real life hotshot, aren't you?  Don't tell me you have been fooling me all this time.




Dunno bout that one Julia! I'm getting through the current market alright, so things could be a lot worse. But thank you anyway



JTLP said:


> I think i've been a pretty unlucky kid. Got into the markets in October '07, and saw a 15% increase in my holdings pretty rapidly. Started to buy and sell (thinking I was it and a bit and going on rumours, ramps etc) and got burnt pretty badly. My losses for the year are about 2% of my income (which may not seem a lot) but that 2% is priceless to me in the lessons learnt!
> 
> If there is one thing that life teaches you, is that you never stop learning.
> 
> ...




You are most likely luckier than you think, bullmarkets can breed bad habits. I think learning to trade in less than ideal conditions is going to be of more benefit to you than if you had of started back in 2003/4. If you can survive the current market, then you'll be in a good place to prosper the next time we have a decent run.


----------



## stevo (23 April 2008)

It's quite easy to make a small fortune trading - start with a large one and work your way down

I don't trade for a living so I didn't respond to this poll. But it's certainly a serious business for me, but it's not my only source of income.

stevo


----------



## jersey10 (23 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Haven't I clarified this?  Although I'm not sure why I should need to, really.  The only connection was the arbitrary figure of $40,000.  And I said "$40,000 or so".  That's the sort of figure which is frequently mentioned by people as they ask the question so often asked before of 'can I live off trading.......' etc.
> 
> I simply don't know why you and MRC take a general comment as being personal.




Hi Julia,

Not taken personally by me.  No offence taken by me.

Jersey10


----------



## trishan9390 (23 April 2008)

I started trading in August last year, a great time to learn. My aim is to beat compounding interest rate of 7.25% on my starting captial. More of a hobby for me and is something  enjoy doing in my spare time.


----------

