# ABBOTT Resurrection



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

When Cory resigns from the LNP this week will Tony follow?

Friend of Abbott to watch: Nicolle Flint, Craig Kelly, .......


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## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> When Cory resigns from the LNP this week will Tony follow?
> 
> Friend of Abbott to watch: Nicolle Flint, Craig Kelly, .......




The splitting of the Conservative vote can only be a good thing imo.

It's similar to the splitting of the Centre Left vote via the Greens.


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## pixel (6 February 2017)

He may be a Jesuit, but a Jesus he ain't.
And for a Lazarus, he's still too much alive.
... at least one would hope.


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## noco (6 February 2017)

Tony Abbott is well educated and has the right ideas to make this country of ours great again but he does not have the charisma of a Pearce Brosnan, a Clark Gable or a toothy  smile like Peter Beattie or Anna Bligh.
Naive people look at facial expression and say he is a nice man or a woman and will vote for them irrespective of what they stand for.


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## OmegaTrader (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> Tony Abbott is well educated and has the right ideas to make this country of ours great again but he does not have the charisma of a Pearce Brosnan, a Clark Gable or a toothy  smile like Peter Beattie or Anna Bligh.
> Naive people look at facial expression and say he is a nice man or a woman and will vote for them irrespective of what they stand for.



hit the nail on the head.
Popularity contest not policy .

Although backflips on policy don't help either. That is the problem. If you stand for something follow through. Some people aren't going to like it  but if you don't follow through then what do you stand for?

Nothing..


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## Tisme (20 May 2017)

Abbott MkII

Note the more mature Tony commentary:
9 hours ago

_"Last night I was privileged to receive an honorary doctorate from Tel Aviv University.

We may not be Israel's most important friend, but we should always strive to be one of its most reliable. Something that both sides of Australian politics should always agree on.

Congratulations to Julia Gillard for receiving a doctorate from Ben Gurion University too."_


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## Tisme (19 June 2017)

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...hrough-the-nose-for-power/8629090?pfmredir=sm



> It was a rare moment of triumph for a prime minister frustrated in his dealings with a difficult Senate.
> 
> Just on three years ago, a jubilant Tony Abbott — having just secured agreement to vanquish the carbon tax, the handbrake on the Australian economy — appeared on national television.
> 
> ...


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

So what is the point of that post?


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## SirRumpole (19 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So what is the point of that post?




To point out a policy fail of the previous PM ?


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

What was the policy failure?
Other than to reverse a carbon tax, that basically put a stop to investment in coal fired generation.
All you are trying to do, is put a spin on the cause for a shortfall, in reliable generation.
What a load of manure.
But hey, Abbott = bad, Turbull = indecisive, Bill= FW that will provide the enama you need.
After all the education smurph has given you, it just proves, it was a waste of time.


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## SirRumpole (19 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> What was the policy failure?
> Other than to reverse a carbon tax, that basically put a stop to investment in coal fired generation.
> All you are trying to do, is put a spin on the cause for a shortfall, in reliable generation.
> What a load of manure.
> ...




Crap.

Coal power has had it's day, but it will stagger on until it's replaced by something better. Abbott destroyed the rooftop solar industry which is taking the load off the creaking coal stations because of his IDEOLOGICAL OBSESSION with the coal industry and their political donations.

He, and people who think like him are dinosaurs and my guess is that the public will throw him(them) out very soon.

Abbott would have been out if Turnbull hadn't saved him in the last election.

How many coal stations have been planned since the carbon tax was removed ? 

The banks won't finance them carbon tax or not. They are dying like the dinosaurs after the meteor struck but people like your good self are too short sighted to see it.


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Crap.
> 
> Coal power has had it's day, but it will stagger on until it's replaced by something better. Abbott destroyed the rooftop solar industry which is taking the load off the creaking coal stations because of his IDEOLOGICAL OBSESSION with the coal industry and their political donations.
> 
> ...




So why are we still exporting thermal coal?

Wouldn't it be simpler, to just stop the sale of thermal coal, if it is the righteous thing to do?

No, we just want to increase the cost of our electricity, because we can afford it.


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## SirRumpole (19 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So why are we still exporting thermal coal?




For the same reason that we are still using it, other countries still use coal but they are in the process of replacing those stations with something else.


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

All the best, hope it works well for you.


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## Tisme (19 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So what is the point of that post?



Well the thread is about Tony Abbott's potential resurrection. This article is about Tony Abbott and the cost of power due to his policies, which will play either positively or negatively in his tilt to reclaim the throne 

I think that's about it.


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

Yep, as I said to your mate, hope it all works out well for you.
There is nothing to be added to the discussion when, it gets this silly. IMO


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## Tisme (19 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, as I said to your mate, hope it all works out well for you.
> There is nothing to be added to the discussion when, it gets this silly. IMO




Why the agro?  Is it the realisation your sidled up to the wrong political party and you are justifiably frustrated at their betrayal of trust?


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## PZ99 (19 June 2017)

The Carbon Tax reversal was minor compared to the main event that brought down Abbott, which was the 2014 budget. (My view)

He won't be coming back.


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## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Why the agro?  Is it the realisation your sidled up to the wrong political party and you are justifiably frustrated at their betrayal of trust?



Actually no, it is the realisation that sensible discussion isn't possible, with people that are closed minded.
Now that may be me, or it may be you and Rumpole. 
I'm just in a position where it doesn't matter, so you guys go ahead and enjoy yourselves, I'll tap out.
I don't want to make it a venue for your political agenda.


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## Tisme (20 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> .
> I don't want to make it a venue for your political agenda.




and what would that be? Or can't you quantify it given the knot in the pit of your stomach keeps distracting you away from the godaweful truth of your folly?

You seem to have embraced an archaic political agenda that never really existed. I mean look at your LNP comrades on this forum, winners all who have NFI of what the party stands for simply because the politicians themselves don't know either, because they have been raised by parents to simply hate the ALP, with any counterbalancing productive thought.


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## moXJO (20 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> and what would that be? Or can't you quantify it given the knot in the pit of your stomach keeps distracting you away from the godaweful truth of your folly?
> 
> You seem to have embraced an archaic political agenda that never really existed. I mean look at your LNP comrades on this forum, winners all who have NFI of what the party stands for simply because the politicians themselves don't know either, because they have been raised by parents to simply hate the ALP, with any counterbalancing productive thought.



They stepped away from what they were suppose to be about:

Small government 
Grow the economy.
Minimal interference in peoples lives.
Protection of freedom's and privacy.


Instead libs morphed into a bastardized version of labor. Labor turned into the Greens and the Greens just sold out to the education union.

None of them are worth voting for and nothing is getting done.


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## Tisme (20 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> They stepped away from what they were suppose to be about:
> 
> Small government
> Grow the economy.
> ...





I couldn't agree with you more


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## SirRumpole (20 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> Small government




How small do you want ?

The Libs are selling off our power supplies and look where that has got us. A decision is made in another country to close one of our major generators with a few months notice.

Privatisation of essential services never works.


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## PZ99 (20 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How small do you want ?



Another 14 seats smaller would be nice


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## qldfrog (21 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How small do you want ?
> 
> The Libs are selling off our power supplies and look where that has got us. A decision is made in another country to close one of our major generators with a few months notice.
> 
> Privatisation of essential services never works.



small government is not only privatisation ; it is reducing the inference of government in everyday life, and that at all level council state and fed.
This means first and foremost less regulation less red tape and less public servants so that the productive arm of the nation can actually afford to be taxed for the welfare state, we have now joined western Europe and are not able to support the ever increasing cost of government..being taxed at basically 50% and pay gst on what you buy after taxe is nothing but slavery in my opinion, and definitively not the mark of a progressive society, and even that is not enought to balance a budget..


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## basilio (21 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> small government is not only privatisation ; it is reducing the inference of government in everyday life, and that at all level council state and fed.
> This means first and foremost less regulation less red tape and less public servants so that the productive arm of the nation can actually afford to be taxed for the welfare state, we have now joined western Europe and are not able to support the ever increasing cost of government..being taxed at basically 50% and pay gst on what you buy after taxe is nothing but slavery in my opinion, and definitively not the mark of a progressive society, and even that is not enought to balance a budget..




I keep wondering Qldfrog...

*"less regulation less red tape  less public servants" *Ok lets reduce our building regulations so that builders and developers can just get on with the job of building what they want, where they want and how they want. And of course you don't want those pesky electrical and plumbing regulations because they just add extra cost and the market place will surely ensure we get what we pay for.. (Glenfell Towers..)

So with minimal building regulations we have minimal need for  building inspectors, unless of course they are are partners of the builders. 

Workplace safety regulations ? Come on. That's for wussies. If anyone gets hurt at work it just shows they were too slow, silly or dumb. After all employers would never needlessly allow unsafe work places would they ? ??

Food safety and labelling  laws. Now there's another load of rubbish. Surely people are capable of working out what is good for them and safe to eat without the Nanny State interfering.

And Public schools ? When did these become part of Government ? Surely we should let people take care of their own educational needs? After all we have private schools. They can expand to fill what need is required.
Hospitals ? Public health care ? Nah . Too much of a drain on the public purse. Let's follow the American model of a strong private health system and everything that has flowed from it.

While we are at it surely we don't need Consumer protection laws, or organisations that crimp the economic juices of business. Lets get rid of ASIC
How much further should we go folks ? Do you want to see a world of small government and minimal interference in the business world ? Check out Victorian England circa 1850's


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## SirRumpole (21 June 2017)

basilio said:


> How much further should we go folks ? Do you want to see a world of small government and minimal interference in the business world ? Check out Victorian England circa 1850's




Yep, it's all a balance. Those who can take advantage of the consumer will do so, ethics has little place in the cut-throat world of business.

How do we know when we have enough regulation to protect consumers but not so much as to drive away entrepreneurs ?

This is one of the key questions and I don't have an answer.


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## qldfrog (21 June 2017)

basilio said:


> I keep wondering Qldfrog...
> 
> *"less regulation less red tape  less public servants" *Ok lets reduce our building regulations so that builders and developers can just get on with the job of building what they want, where they want and how they want. And of course you don't want those pesky electrical and plumbing regulations because they just add extra cost and the market place will surely ensure we get what we pay for.. (Glenfell Towers..)
> 
> ...



sorry Basilio, but I would have no trouble whatsoever to get rid of your first 3 examples.
Actually very sad that you can even think that way and especially sad as i do share some of your ideas principle, but it is time for a wake up call;
Symptomatic of a whole country/generation you probably see it differently yet can you actually build an eco house if you want to in this country?..to take an example you would care for..of course you can not, too many regulations/exemptions/etc and if you do it cost you the earth to try to save it

if I want to build a house of papier mache, plug my own light bulb, have a pool it should be my right as long as I do not complain if it gets blown out at the first storm; and for many it could be better than no house at all, 'cause guess what we can not have both;
If we decide to live in what was basically 50y ago the communist bureaucratic nightmare, it comes with all its bells and whistles
great welfare state  here and now one billion a month just in interest for a debt that we leave to our kids..Thanks Dad, you may protect the planet but not your kids!!

Be responsible of your own choices and decision, same for food etc, and there is still the rule of law;
small government is not free for all, it means local local councils, real representatives and not some MPs
at least people would be able to house themselves in an empty continent, but let's blame negative gearing...

Then what is the public school doing in that debate?
A small government can have its place and public school unless you find the current state of australian schooling, split between two government levels no less, a model with its ranking below many second class countries.
..yes talk about crappy system.
Same for Healths.
In 1950's we had schools and hospitals you know, but a much smaller government.Yes we need more hospitals now but we also need less schools.
And jumping onto the "american counter model" is so 1980's;
In 2017 America is as much in this **** as we are, they are pushed in by established corporations instead of government departments, but same same for the catastrophic results;
more debt, more absence of responsability and more deferal of our own inaptitude to the next generation.Let's follow the scandinavian/european model ROL.
Only one advice Basilio,travel,  travel with open eyes; repeating the same mistakes will lead to the same results
And BTW I can not stand Abbott or his lobby paid ignorant allies so probably wrong place to have that talk


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## Tisme (21 June 2017)

If old building methods aren't safe why are people allowed to still live in them in their hundreds of thousands?


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## SirRumpole (21 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> if I want to build a house of papier mache, plug my own light bulb, have a pool it should be my right as long as I do not complain if it gets blown out at the first storm; and for many it could be better than no house at all, 'cause guess what we can not have both;




If you expect other people to live in your  house like your wife and kids or any renters then you should expect that the law looks after their rights as well as yours when it comes to safety.


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## qldfrog (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If you expect other people to live in your  house like your wife and kids or any renters then you should expect that the law looks after their rights as well as yours when it comes to safety.



I would strongly argue against that; definitively for own family and kids, but even (pushing the argument to the extreme I agree but in the spirit)same for renters, some choose to live near beaches and so have more chances to drown or be eaten by a shark than in alice spring etc.
free will free choice otherwise we end up where we are and going worse year by year..There is sadly no successfull way to get a balance


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## qldfrog (23 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> I would strongly argue against that; definitively for own family and kids, but even (pushing the argument to the extreme I agree but in the spirit)same for renters, some choose to live near beaches and so have more chances to drown or be eaten by a shark than in alice spring etc.
> free will free choice otherwise we end up where we are and going worse year by year..There is sadly no successfull way to get a balance



I would even argue that the root problem is an absence of real jobs, as a result both in department and corporations, people are creating their own, seeing that everywhere.
So the team of "white sausage import control"[ whatever] will add a new regulation , the project will take 2 consultants, a change manager, a HR person, one PR ,3 BA + one PM, maybe a program manager if big enough, then on completion the department head will require new officers.
Increasing the numbers will increase his status and opportunity to move to the bigger more resourced "Black pudding control and authenticity department", while 3 lawyers will fight to close the original white sausage manufacturer as this one is using too much meat  and still calls its product white sausage....
you get the idea?
I can replace the sausage department by dozen of real life examples in both corporate and public department world and I would bet anything you would.Not much to do with Abbott who diod not do much on this field


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> I would even argue that the root problem is an absence of real jobs, as a result both in department and corporations, people are creating their own, seeing that everywhere.




Over regulation is bad, but I would add that it's a matter of* informed *consent. eg if you build a house with shoddy wiring and hide it behind walls, do you expect a renter to tear your house apart to make sure the wiring is up to scratch ? I doubt it.

Laws protect both the landlord and the tenants.


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## PZ99 (23 June 2017)

Speaking of shoddy wiring I just hope that Abbott and others realise if they call for complete deregulation they are forfeiting their right to blame the Rudd Govt for the insulation deaths caused by non adherence to the regulations


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## qldfrog (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Over regulation is bad, but I would add that it's a matter of* informed *consent. eg if you build a house with shoddy wiring and hide it behind walls, do you expect a renter to tear your house apart to make sure the wiring is up to scratch ? I doubt it.
> 
> Laws protect both the landlord and the tenants.



as I said i was pushing the argument to the extreme.


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> as I said i was pushing the argument to the extreme.




Extremes are the problem, that's why we can't get good government. There is always a middle ground.


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## orr (23 June 2017)

Is it not the time for this thread to bear witness and to heed to the inevitable of the _' *Dutton Ascendancy* '
now make that guarf that rattles in the back of your mouth to back of your nose.. _
But imagine the nausea associated with any elevation from an an already unjustifiable position of influence...


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## qldfrog (25 June 2017)

orr said:


> Is it not the time for this thread to bear witness and to heed to the inevitable of the _' *Dutton Ascendancy* '
> now make that guarf that rattles in the back of your mouth to back of your nose.. _
> But imagine the nausea associated with any elevation from an an already unjustifiable position of influence...



good description of my feeling on that subject; I happen to live in his electorate, the fact that such a person can even be a minister is not flattering to the Australian system.At least Trump knows how to make money and whatever people think of him has some IQ.


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## SirRumpole (25 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> good description of my feeling on that subject; I happen to live in his electorate, the fact that such a person can even be a minister is not flattering to the Australian system.At least Trump knows how to make money and whatever people think of him has some IQ.




I wonder if Dutton could pass the English test he's trying to inflict on prospective citizens.


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## sptrawler (26 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if Dutton could pass the English test he's trying to inflict on prospective citizens.




On the same note, why are you giving Iuutzu such a hard time, on the "Islam:is inherently evil" thread?
 You seem to have an issue with Islamic terrorists, also an issue with someone trying to put in place, a filter to detect them.

Dutton is only trying to ensure people who come here, are serious about integrating and adopting Australian ethics and underlying standards, it means a test has to be difficult.

Otherwise let anybody in and accept the consequences, it is the same as trying to achieve anything worthwhile, if its easy everyone has it then it isn't worthwhile it's common place.


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## SirRumpole (26 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> On the same note, why are you giving Iuutzu such a hard time, on the "Islam:is inherently evil" thread?
> You seem to have an issue with Islamic terrorists, also an issue with someone trying to put in place, a filter to detect them.




You don't have any issue with Islamic terrorists ?

An English test isn't necessarily a filter against terrorism. A lot of terrorists these days are educated professionals as I've pointed out before.

We should be restricting our immigration now for various reasons including terrorism and economics, we can't house the people that we have or find full time jobs for them, so why make it worse by importing more ?


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## qldfrog (26 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> On the same note, why are you giving Iuutzu such a hard time, on the "Islam:is inherently evil" thread?
> You seem to have an issue with Islamic terrorists, also an issue with someone trying to put in place, a filter to detect them..



Sptrawler, I am not  SirRumpole so not sure about his stance, but I  know I am not exactly easy on Islam, the green plague which IMHO is actually threatening civilisation as never before;
I am not a labour supporter nor a fan of the liberals at all costs, actually very disappointed by MT.But from all I have seen of this specific guy, Dutton is a complete douche (I am not even talking of his policies/decisions etc) and i am actually surprised he even made it that far.
I can not imagine a douche can be a right minister ever, unless he is just a puppet and if so who is behind?


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## Tisme (26 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Sptrawler, I am not  SirRumpole so not sure about his stance, but I  know I am not exactly easy on Islam, the green plague which IMHO is actually threatening civilisation as never before;
> I am not a labour supporter nor a fan of the liberals at all costs, actually very disappointed by MT.But from all I have seen of this specific guy, Dutton is a complete douche (I am not even talking of his policies/decisions etc) and i am actually surprised he even made it that far.
> I can not imagine a douche can be a right minister ever, unless he is just a puppet and if so who is behind?




Just sticking to the facts will answer the reason he is what his unlikable self is and why the pollies call him "Mr Potato Head":

he's divisive by nature;
he dogs whistles habitually;
his first love was being a stoic copper, thus the dead pan uncaring persona;
he is the LNP's most conservative (read people must be punished into submission) Federal member;
he thinks he is laying the ground for being elected the future iron warrior Prime Minister;
with his goofy looks he has probably put up a big wall to repel taunts before his ears hear them;
he's that stubborn unbending kid that all the other kids avoided.


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## sptrawler (26 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Sptrawler, I am not  SirRumpole so not sure about his stance, but I  know I am not exactly easy on Islam, the green plague which IMHO is actually threatening civilisation as never before;
> I am not a labour supporter nor a fan of the liberals at all costs, actually very disappointed by MT.But from all I have seen of this specific guy, Dutton is a complete douche (I am not even talking of his policies/decisions etc) and i am actually surprised he even made it that far.
> I can not imagine a douche can be a right minister ever, unless he is just a puppet and if so who is behind?




I agree with you, MT, Dutton and most of Parliament in general at the moment, are useless.
However a blanket stopping of immigration, based on religious faith, isn't going to cut it. 
It will be thrown out as unconstitutional, so in effect is a waste of time and money, other than for lawyers.
Making Citizenship tests harder, is the only viable filter available to the Government of the day.
It also has to be taken in the context, that we do need to increase our population base and with a falling birthrate immigration is necessary.


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## Tisme (29 June 2017)

Just incase you are interested in the actual address to the IPA in Brisbane:

http://tonyabbott.com.au/2017/06/tr...rs-hilton-brisbane-elizabeth-street-brisbane/




> We need to make Australia work again – because our country, plainly, is not working as it should.
> 
> We are letting ourselves down.
> 
> ...


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2017)

Thanks for that Tony, you are certain to be next PM.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 June 2017)

I feel in a way responsible for Abbott as I helped garner the numbers for him to become Opposition Leader when that muppet Rudd was PM.

There is not enough of a conservative mood in the electorate for him to be a successful PM, ever.

Turnbull is a muppet.

Shorten will be PM come next election, unless there is a miracle, and I don't believe in miracles.

gg


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel in a way responsible for Abbott as I helped garner the numbers for him to become Opposition Leader when that muppet Rudd was PM.




Well Garpal, perhaps you should use your influence with Tony to politely suggest that perhaps he might like to consider the possibility of not undermining his party and their chances at the next election.


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## Tisme (29 June 2017)

Malcolm must be feeling like King Caratacus with his foe Scapula sharpening his sword. Fortunately things end well in retirement for Caratacus as they will for Malcolm.


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Malcolm must be feeling like King Caratacus with his foe Scapula sharpening his sword. Fortunately things end well in retirement for Caratacus as they will for Malcolm.




Well, it's a test of leadership to put down rebellions, so let's see if Malcolm has what it takes.

It's happened to him before so if he's as smart as he thinks he is he won't let it happen again.


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## pixel (30 June 2017)

seriously: Has "Nuclear Submarine"-Tony morphed into a gorilla-sized moron?
Or is it just a couple of kangaroos that are running amuck in his top paddock?

Too dumb to understand Climate Science, yet ambitions to go nuclear! 
Time to call the ambos with a straight jacket...


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## basilio (30 June 2017)

Re the Abbott Resurrection.

You can't keep a good vampire down.


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## Tisme (30 June 2017)

Then the Chasers get in on the act:


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## orr (30 June 2017)

Thanks for re reminding the audience of this TISM;  Abbott has a Masters Degree in Dufus. I'd personally say post doctorate.  
In total, the longer view of his career is a slow motion train wreck.
Many catholics suffer having had the hocus-pocus, Hee-bee gee-bees jammed down their early forming egg shelled minds. I pity them terribly, it severely compromises the capacity for rational thought.


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## basilio (30 June 2017)

Well that's very perspicacious Orr.  Poor benighted brain addled Catholics. 
Do you think any other Christian religious organisation membranes might have suffered from similar "comprises to their capacity for rational thought" . The Meths perhaps ? Presbyterians ? Anglicans?

What about Jews or Muslims ?  Hindus ? Perhaps the sad cases of children born and raised into Collingwood supporter households.

Do you think these situations call for some sort of kindly but decisive actions to put an end to such clearly dysfunctional people and the *risk *they represent to any poor child they sire? 

Cheers        ( please note tongue in cheek. Can't work the emojs . Clearly  terminally brain addled..)


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## pixel (30 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Do you think these situations call for some sort of kindly but decisive actions to put an end to such clearly dysfunctional people and the *risk *they represent to any poor child they sire?



No, bas, we don't have to go that far and exterminate the misguided souls. Smiting gentiles, killing infidels, slaughtering natives so their mates embrace the One True Creed - all of that may have been all the rage in the Stone and Dark Ages, but in modern civilisation, these barbaric practices are frowned upon.

That aside, the solution is much simpler:

Rewind Howard's policy of slashing education budgets to dumb-down the sheeple.
Strengthen Science, Logic, and Rational Thought in every school curriculum.
Replace fairy tales of megalomaniac Boojums-in-the-Sky by proper Ethics classes.
and don't allow priests, shamans, muftis, rabbis ... to infest kids' brains with self-serving BS.
quite simple, really.


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## wayneL (3 July 2017)

Rational thought hmmmm.

It seems to me those who stroke their own egos the most,  presuming themselves rational, critical thinkers,  are those blighted by yet another thought virus,  a different form of (pseudo)religion...

Ideology.


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## Tisme (3 July 2017)

basilio said:


> Perhaps the sad cases of children born and raised into Collingwood supporter households.




A constant reminder and lesson of how even clever countries have their underclass


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## qldfrog (3 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> clever countries



Hum...you have a very low threshold here.......


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## Tisme (3 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Hum...you have a very low threshold here.......





I know, but we live in hope 

The imperative for Tony would be quite important now that his mate Pell has been charged. His DLP inspired policies (sans workers rights) and the ghost of Bob Santamaria would be pressing hard for him to rest power from the LNP conservative catholics and put it back in the hands of the hardline god worshipers so they can interfere with due process in Victoria.

This a religious war that has been going on since Whitlam; before that Menzies and his cohorts kept the Liberal Country Party pure of Anglican/Protestant heart, with a sprinkling of catholic tokenism .


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## qldfrog (3 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> This a religious war that has been going on since Whitlam; before that Menzies and his cohorts kept the Liberal Country Party pure of Anglican/Protestant heart, with a sprinkling of catholic tokenism .



I am too new an Australian to have lived thru these years and so fully unaware.
But I read some pretty scary reports on the way Euthanasia rights have been canned due to catholism push (on both side BTW) and 3was very uncomfortable about that happening in 2016.
Disclaimer:I was born a catholic, am non believer but basically follow the judeo christian ethics of good and bad


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2017)

Personally I think Albanese ( Albo) should be the next PM. 
He has the background, behaviour, political skills and charisma to be a great PM.
Unfortunately the ALP are as dysfunctional as the Coalition and it won't happen.
The Cancer of Rudd, will take another 3-4 elections to work out until we can get a Government and Opposition to work in some sort of harmony.
Shorten is a ********.
Turnbull is a ********
For Abbott return to "The Cancer of".

gg


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## PZ99 (3 July 2017)

Abbott needs to go. He's a wrecker and just another utter nutter. Like.... nuke subs??? 

BTW: Turnbull outpolls Abbott as leader by a factor of 2 to 1. So that's 4 stars for  Abbott. ****


----------



## Tisme (4 July 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Abbott needs to go. He's a wrecker and just another utter nutter. Like.... nuke subs???
> 
> BTW: Turnbull outpolls Abbott as leader by a factor of 2 to 1. So that's 4 stars for  Abbott. ****




He's growing too old for popular politics, out to destroy worlds, but he's no avatar of Vishnu, unless he's part of the good/evil balance.


----------



## PZ99 (4 July 2017)

Well you could say he's not half the man he was yesterday.





http://www.thecourier.com.au/story/4722032/abbott-onion-crown-causes-a-stir/

I reckon Silly Billy did this


----------



## Tisme (4 July 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Well you could say he's not half the man he was yesterday.
> 
> View attachment 71706
> 
> ...





Funny.

I must admit I am getting some enjoyment at his mates (who laughed and guffawed when Tony was honing his negative skills and giving Rudd, Gillard and Shorten the treatment) now complaining he is now causing pain and anxiety inside his own camp.

And that's the problem really; Tony stacked his parliamentary party with indians and no chiefs, so they don't know how to fulfil the promises of economic management, nation building, etc....the only thing they are experts at is blaming Bill Shorten for being a bad Prime Minister who won't endorse the Liberal hate of working class pest policy for some incredulous reason.


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## wayneL (4 July 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Personally I think Albanese ( Albo) should be the next PM.
> He has the background, behaviour, political skills and charisma to be a great PM.
> Unfortunately the ALP are as dysfunctional as the Coalition and it won't happen.
> The Cancer of Rudd, will take another 3-4 elections to work out until we can get a Government and Opposition to work in some sort of harmony.
> ...



I could live with Albo as PM, even Bowen.

Just don't know how Im gonna stomach Shorten.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> I could live with Albo as PM, even Bowen.




Same here.



wayneL said:


> Just don't know how Im gonna stomach Shorten.




Possibly a bit unfair. I think he's an intelligent bloke, he just doesn't have the gift of the gab as others do.


----------



## McLovin (4 July 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Abbott needs to go. He's a wrecker and just another utter nutter. Like.... nuke subs???




You forget this is the guy who suggested to the military that Australia might send SAS soldiers to guard that Malaysian Airliner that was brought down by a missile in the Ukraine. And that's the same guy who, when Rudd was trying to win Australia a security council seat, said Australia needed to know its place, or words to that effect. We get nuclear subs and we start an arms race in our backyard. Abbott should just get given a cushy job like Ambassador to the Holy See (that would be his wet dream I imagine!). He's of little use to the country.

Albo is nice enough guy and I like his ability to do old fashioned stump speeches, but I don't think he's smart enough to be PM. Jason Clare is I think the pick of the ALP at the moment.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2017)

McLovin said:


> Jason Clare is I think the pick of the ALP at the moment.




Mark Butler is in the running too I think.

Dreyfuss is smart enough, but is he 'modern' enough ?


----------



## McLovin (4 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Dreyfuss is smart enough, but is he 'modern' enough ?




He's a lawyer. Lawyers care more about winning the argument than the substance (I believe that Keating told Rudd that in regard to Turnbull). I've heard on the grapevine there is  pretty bright prospect who isn't even in the parliament yet.


----------



## PZ99 (4 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> I could live with Albo as PM, even Bowen.
> 
> Just don't know how Im gonna stomach Shorten.



The ALP have the same divisions as the Coalition - it's always better hidden in opposition for whatever reason. But it's the dominate right wing in the party controlling its destination - hence Shorten being the leader. Until this dominance is purged, Albo and Bowen have no chance IMO


----------



## qldfrog (4 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> I could live with Albo as PM, even Bowen.
> 
> Just don't know how Im gonna stomach Shorten.



Just do not know if I could live with their policies...first one being to raise max tax rate to 50% +, and so carry on the slope toward their French model: Labor or simili in power forever with a collapsed country.
Where are the Keatings in 2017?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> first one being to raise max tax rate to 50% +,




What's your evidence for that as Labor Party policy ?

I believe Labor is considering a "Buffet tax", where higher income earners pay at least 35%, but I can't see anything about a 50% tax rate.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...h/news-story/de9fb6895831b40c7051cefc19586e8d


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## PZ99 (4 July 2017)

I think it refers to their increased medicare levy + keeping the budget repair levy.

For a high income earner that's around 49-50% all up.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I think it refers to their increased medicare levy + keeping the budget repair levy.
> 
> For a high income earner that's around 49-50% all up.




Ah, ok thanks.


----------



## sptrawler (4 July 2017)

PZ99 said:


> The ALP have the same divisions as the Coalition - it's always better hidden in opposition for whatever reason. But it's the dominate right wing in the party controlling its destination - hence Shorten being the leader. Until this dominance is purged, Albo and Bowen have no chance IMO




You've hit the nail on the head, Shorten isn't going to cut it, he is useless.

Abbott missed the boat, when he didn't call for another election, he said he wouldn't accept a hung Parliament. Then he did accept it, and it was a disaster, same as Gillard. Dumb

Both Parties need to move on, and elect the next generation of leaders, the current ones all suffer from lack of credibility.IMO

Labor have proved it can work in W.A, McGowan would struggle in normal circumstances, but he creamed it.
The general public has lost faith in the 'old guard', time to move on.IMO


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Just do not know if I could live with their policies...first one being to raise max tax rate to 50% +, and so carry on the slope toward their French model: Labor or simili in power forever with a collapsed country.
> Where are the Keatings in 2017?



You are absolutely right,  of course. The seeming inevitability of a Labor government and the policies floated have me really very concerned... concerned enough to be weighing my options up on whether we want to stay here. 

Australia has become an astonishingly expensive country to live in and it's attribute  not good enough to earn a high income, be taxed to the sx1thouse and still struggle; with bludgers and out of touch bureaucrats on easy street courtesy of our forced largesse.

#### that!!!


----------



## McLovin (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> Australia has become an astonishingly expensive country to live in and it's attribute  not good enough to earn a high income, be taxed to the sx1thouse and still struggle; with bludgers and out of touch bureaucrats on easy street courtesy of our forced largesse.
> 
> #### that!!!




I agree with your sentiment, Wayne, except it's not bludgers, it's pensions and health. Social security and welfare is ~$160b, only ~$10b of that is for unemployment benefits. The biggest line item, ~$65b, is spent on pensions. Health accounts for a further $75b of spending. There's also general revenue assistance to the states worth about ~$70b which funds hospitals and schools, the largest line item in GRA is health care. It's pretty hard to justify perks like family home exemptions for pension payments and tax free superannuation when the benefits of those perks is going to the group that is the biggest drain on government resources.


----------



## PZ99 (5 July 2017)

Well there's also the disability pension and from what (little) I know of it once people are onto it they stay there for life - regardless of their ability or willingness to work. To me that qualifies as bludging. There are other examples. The list is probably endless.

Meanwhile the fed/state tax increases continue to outstrip the CPI and what's left of your payrise - and then to add insult to injury we still can't balance the budget and we have a debt that will take generations to pay off.

The only thing I've seen so far from Govt is to nimble it - and move on - to the next Govt. LOL


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> You are absolutely right,  of course. The seeming inevitability of a Labor government and the policies floated have me really very concerned... concerned enough to be weighing my options up on whether we want to stay here.



It may seem far fetched but this is surprisingly also the main topic of conversation at home right now: Considering another longuer stay in NZ to check potential move there.


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2017)

McLovin said:


> I agree with your sentiment, Wayne, except it's not bludgers, it's pensions and health. Social security and welfare is ~$160b, only ~$10b of that is for unemployment benefits. The biggest line item, ~$65b, is spent on pensions. Health accounts for a further $75b of spending. There's also general revenue assistance to the states worth about ~$70b which funds hospitals and schools, the largest line item in GRA is health care. It's pretty hard to justify perks like family home exemptions for pension payments and tax free superannuation when the benefits of those perks is going to the group that is the biggest drain on government resources.



Agree 100% on above McLovin but welfare as NDIS, the new Gonski-> spend $ and it will be right, again and again spending money we do not have to waste it; look at your local council/state and the amount spent to  extend a building on a school, repair a roadside, this is crazy and we are geniuinely considering moving;
Luutzu will be happy: more refugees can come and replace us and Labour will have easier electoral win.
The only trouble is: which place on earth is saved from the green plague and rampant "socialism"?( I so hate ended up using that word in that context but what is a great concept has turned into a caricature)


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Ah, ok thanks.



yes and that does not even take into account the GST on what you buy....we end up being taxed more than 50% on extra dollar, definition of exploitation in my opinion


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## Tisme (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> You are absolutely right,  of course. The seeming inevitability of a Labor government and the policies floated have me really very concerned... concerned enough to be weighing my options up on whether we want to stay here.
> 
> Australia has become an astonishingly expensive country to live in and it's attribute  not good enough to earn a high income, be taxed to the sx1thouse and still struggle; with bludgers and out of touch bureaucrats on easy street courtesy of our forced largesse.
> 
> #### that!!!





Taxation is an important for paying public servants who on average *earn* 110% of the private sector and garner 150% superannuation, which is 1.1 x 1.5 = 165% of a private sector worker. Not bad for simply following policy and procedure, no initiative required.

And if you are in teaching, well after 12 months you can disappear for years while breeding and still keep a job and perks ....what a great place we live in !!!!

http://www.qtu.asn.au//files//9114/9560/1182/Parental_leave_and_entitlements_May2017.pdf


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> yes and that does not even take into account the GST on what you buy....we end up being taxed more than 50% on extra dollar, definition of exploitation in my opinion





We've all had to endure that. But realistically that is not a flat rate, but a marginal rate on a progressive scale, that can be avoided with judicious use of the taxation, income, etc rules


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> You are absolutely right,  of course. The seeming inevitability of a Labor government and the policies floated have me really very concerned... concerned enough to be weighing my options up on whether we want to stay here.
> 
> Australia has become an astonishingly expensive country to live in and it's attribute  not good enough to earn a high income, be taxed to the sx1thouse and still struggle; with bludgers and out of touch bureaucrats on easy street courtesy of our forced largesse.
> 
> #### that!!!




The govt should reduce the max tax rate to around 40%, and to pay for that it should do away with the artificial tax reduction schemes like negative gearing, 15% tax on super contributions, family trust concessions, tax free super and capital gains discount, all of which massively benefit higher income earners.

That would put the emphasis back on actually doing useful work to earn a living, not spending most of people's time with their accountants trying to reduce their income for tax purposes.


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> We've all had to endure that. But realistically that is not a flat rate, but a marginal rate on a progressive scale, that can be avoided with judicious use of the taxation, income, etc rules



Sure but that is not the society I want to live nor is it the place my child can prosper.
I have a company Pty Ltd, a family trust etc and could have a SMSF but would much prefer working on my business than being another negatively geared IP investor trying to rort the super.I tried for 20y, and both sides of politics failed in the upmost way since Howard [who in my opinion sabotaged Australia when fighting Costello so I do not consider him a saint and was happy to see him go]


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Sure but that is not the society I want to live nor is it the place my child can prosper.
> I have a company Pty Ltd, a family trust etc and could have a SMSF but would much prefer working on my business than being another negatively geared IP investor trying to rort the super.I tried for 20y, and both sides of politics failed in the upmost way since Howard [who in my opinion sabotaged Australia when fighting Costello so I do not consider him a saint and was happy to see him go]




I think with the mobility of, say the Chinese, necessary legislation will follow them to quell their penchant to bend the vibe of the rules. NZ wouldn't be immune in the longer term.

We absolutely need a leader who can cobble together a leadership team to progress Australia and traditional values of Australia, rather than their party fortunes.

I'm not sure everyone has reached the hangover stage of drinking too much of the party political spin only coming to realise it wasn't a tonic afterall. It seems to me there are still those holding out from admitting the Godaweful truth they have been conned by a media and political machine that serves no service at all.

There has to be another brash young person out there who has the street smarts, the knowledge base, the nationalist passion, etc of an ar5ehole like Keating.


----------



## craft (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> You are absolutely right,  of course. The seeming inevitability of a Labor government and the policies floated have me really very concerned... concerned enough to be weighing my options up on whether we want to stay here.
> 
> Australia has become an astonishingly expensive country to live in and it's attribute  not good enough to earn a high income, be taxed to the sx1thouse and still struggle; with bludgers and out of touch bureaucrats on easy street courtesy of our forced largesse.
> 
> #### that!!!




Do you need any help to the door?


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2017)

craft said:


> Do you need any help to the door?



Financial inducements always appreciated craft.  Are you offering?


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## craft (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> Financial inducements always appreciated craft.  Are you offering?



Yeah sure - I'll buy you a boat ticket to Indonesia.

I've always been a bleeding heart for those born into terrible circumstances like you face.


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2017)

The struggle is real mate


----------



## Ves (5 July 2017)

McLovin said:


> I agree with your sentiment, Wayne, except it's not bludgers, it's pensions and health. Social security and welfare is ~$160b, only ~$10b of that is for unemployment benefits. The biggest line item, ~$65b, is spent on pensions.



Not replying to you directly.  But just had some observations.

We also need to remember that the money paid out is recycled back into the economy.  It's not dead money, it doesn't just cease to exist.

It's as much as investment into the economy as it is a 'handout.'   Those people receiving it are not the type who hoard it,  they're the type who need it to survive.  And when they spend the 'handout'  it generates economic activity. Businesses make money and pay tax.  The cycle continues.

I also wouldn't discount the psychological and social benefits in the community of there being a 'safety net.'


----------



## Klogg (5 July 2017)

Ves said:


> I also wouldn't discount the psychological and social benefits in the community of there being a 'safety net.'




Is this a positive or negative?

Not that I'm using it as an ideal (far from it), but whilst in Singapore, I saw people working because they had to, not just because of social pressures (e.g. not to be defined as a 'dole bludger'). There was definitely psychological stress, but that strengthened the whole.

Now Singapore as a whole is not something I'd be aiming for. In fact, I don't think I'd go back simply because of the excess on one end (Orchard Road comes to mind) and the poverty on the other - it was very concerning. 
But there is something to be said about a real need to work - I don't actually know which gives the better outcome.


----------



## craft (5 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> The struggle is real mate


----------



## Ves (5 July 2017)

Klogg said:


> Is this a positive or negative?
> 
> Not that I'm using it as an ideal (far from it), but whilst in Singapore, I saw people working because they had to, not just because of social pressures (e.g. not to be defined as a 'dole bludger'). There was definitely psychological stress, but that strengthened the whole.
> 
> ...



I think if there is no government safety net it creates a situation where you are relying on the free market to employ people.   This is not always possible,  and they certainly will not employ people they do not need.   Unemployment strictly speaking isn't always an economic thing,  and the free market does not have a good track record in solving social problems (unless there is an economic incentive).


----------



## Klogg (5 July 2017)

Ves said:


> I think if there is no government safety net it creates a situation where you are relying on the free market to employ people.   This is not always possible,  and they certainly will not employ people they do not need.   Unemployment strictly speaking isn't always an economic thing,  and the free market does not have a good track record in solving social problems (unless there is an economic incentive).




Actually, that's a good point - reminds me of Ha Joon Chang's "23 things they don't tell you about capitalism". The most interesting point in the book (for me) being that there's no such thing as a 'free market'.

My definition (anchor) on what is defined as a 'free market' has been what is within the law, excluding any regulatory influence. But in reality, this is far from 'free'. If markets were truly free, child labor would still be available, as both parties would be 'free' to discuss their working arrangements... and shadow banks would be writing 100% LVR mortgages without any income verification... 

Relating this back to the welfare piece - I guess the interruption of free markets in any form - welfare, taxes, minimum wages and/or increased regulatory oversight is not bad in all cases. Something neoclassical economics (and generally speaking, 'right-wing' politics) gets wrong.

Apologies, I deviated from the topic at hand...


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The govt should reduce the max tax rate to around 40%, and to pay for that it should do away with the artificial tax reduction schemes like negative gearing, 15% tax on super contributions, family trust concessions, tax free super and capital gains discount, all of which massively benefit higher income earners.
> 
> That would put the emphasis back on actually doing useful work to earn a living, not spending most of people's time with their accountants trying to reduce their income for tax purposes.




I for once agree with you, there shouldn't be any welfare, until you have spent your money.

Then it's a level playing field, those who save have to spend everything, before they get what those who have spent everything get.
Good Labor ideology.


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I for once agree with you, there shouldn't be any welfare, until you have spent your money. The Government is working on it for pensioners.
> 
> Then it's a level playing field, those who save have to spend everything, before they get what those who have spent everything get.
> Good Labor ideology.




Actually Malcolm has done Bill a favour, with the latest changes.
The cost of the age pension is expected to stay flat despite population ageing as a result of a budget change that increases the rate at which the pension is reduced beyond the assets test threshold.


----------



## qldfrog (6 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> Financial inducements always appreciated craft.  Are you offering?



what about you just not get my taxes fromn the last 5 years or so?And obviously none of the export$ I generate?


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## qldfrog (6 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> what about you just not get my taxes from the last 5 years or so?And obviously none of the export$ I generate?



obviously not replying to Waye but to Craft.So condescending..


----------



## McLovin (6 July 2017)

Ves said:


> Not replying to you directly.  But just had some observations.
> 
> We also need to remember that the money paid out is recycled back into the economy.  It's not dead money, it doesn't just cease to exist.
> 
> ...




I agree with you about it being recycled and not being hoarded, but the middle class isn't exactly swimming in cash. It just seems to be a very inequitable situation when people on modest incomes are being forced, through the tax system, to subsidise the living costs of people who are often very asset rich, if not both asset and income rich and represent the biggest drain on the government budget.

I agree on the safety net, unfortunately there will always be people who abuse it, but I would rather a minority abuse it than a majority suffer because none exists. I spend a fair bit of time in Latin America these days, and I definitely see what Klogg mentioned happening there; you go to work because you need food on the table. People don't starve, even without work, but it's a very subsistence existence without work. People also live behind big fences with razor wire and lock their doors when they travel around in cars.


----------



## craft (7 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> obviously not replying to Waye but to Craft.So condescending..




I could resemble that remark.


I suspect both you and Wayne probably have multi citizenship. Pointing out that you have options if your only tie to the country is how financially rewarding it is too you, shouldn’t be so upsetting.

Maybe you are more attached to the country than just financially after all.  I hope so – I would hate for the place I call home to be just a financial decision – family, mates, community, social interaction, part of the culture that’s what makes living here worthwhile.

It’s not perfect – and the grass might be greener elsewhere. If your answer to our problems is to leave than leave, Actions speak louder than words -If you have no other considerations than financial here, don’t expect to be missed.

Not entirely sure Wayne would think my comments condescending but as my remark was to him and if he interpreted it that way – I apologise.

I didn’t mock his struggle is real comment – some of the struggles here are real. But we make some worse with our perceptions.  I know I grew up in housing commission and for a long time I had a chip on my shoulder that I didn’t live in the penthouse on the 100th floor – getting over that and realising F@ck, I still live on the 99th floor, stop being such a dick and get on with it was empowering.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for first world problems. If that makes me condescending then guilty as charged.

Sorry this has nothing to do with Abbott.  I blame McLovin, he posts interesting stuff (to me) in dismal places - I should have just read and left.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2017)

craft said:


> - I should have just read and left.




If we all did that, we wouldn't have a site because Joe would go broke.


----------



## wayneL (7 July 2017)

Yes multiple citizenship craft...  and I do understand your comments re connection to this place. 

Its more than financial,  its about being valued. In this country what I do is not as valued in terms of financial reward,  respect and appreciation as other countries. 

Ive spent over $1000 on specialty text books just in the last 12 month. I've spent countless hours reading, scientific studies,  honing specific skill, and collaborating wirh other professionals to be at the absolute top of my game. 

I'm not starving,  I am doing exceptionally well in the grand scheme of things as a non-professional practitioner. But it is at a great personal, emotional and physical toll.

In other western countries and east Asian countries,  my earnings would be 200-300% of what they are here,  with a helluva lot more esteem.

Working conditions are **monumentally ** superior and the cost of living substantially lower.

They will spend quarter of a million on a horse and bitch about my price, ol'mate who is self taught and wouldn't even know what CPD even stands for is $30 cheaper and I better sharpen my pencil. 

Combine that with mooted taxation increases and the ridiculous energy emergency,  and I'm thinking, dammit, I'm working my nuts off for the privilege of barracking for the Wallabies? 

Loyalty is a two way street, and our country is screwing us over, craft.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> Ive spent over $1000 on specialty text books just in the last 12 month. I've spent countless hours reading, scientific studies, honing specific skill, and collaborating wirh other professionals to be at the absolute top of my game.




Don't you get a tax deduction for that stuff ?


----------



## wayneL (7 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't you get a tax deduction for that stuff ?



Sure. But it is still money that has to be spent and the deduction is because trading profit is reduced.

But, time spent doesn't get a deduction, that's time away from my family,  hobbies or earning capacity.


----------



## qldfrog (7 July 2017)

McLovin said:


> I agree with you about it being recycled and not being hoarded, but the middle class isn't exactly swimming in cash. It just seems to be a very inequitable situation when people on modest incomes are being forced, through the tax system, to subsidise the living costs of people who are often very asset rich, if not both asset and income rich and represent the biggest drain on the government budget.
> 
> I agree on the safety net, unfortunately there will always be people who abuse it, but I would rather a minority abuse it than a majority suffer because none exists. I spend a fair bit of time in Latin America these days, and I definitely see what Klogg mentioned happening there; you go to work because you need food on the table. People don't starve, even without work, but it's a very subsistence existence without work. People also live behind big fences with razor wire and lock their doors when they travel around in cars.



Mc Lovin, I am not a neo con and do favor a safety net, but not a NDIS, or the way pension works here, worst of all, the way so many are now feeding in the trought: both from the top: politician, business monopolicies and lobbies, nth level of governments, and from the bottom: not so much dole actually, but more disability pensions, refugees, the discriminatory waste on aboriginal affairs and in short the way my hard to win money is wasted here and there to ensure reelection while our leaders are doing such a pathetic job;
I genuinely see Australia moving backwards as opposed to my arriving there 20y ago;
Add in that corruption: I live in Brisbane and but for the city itself, I do believe all the super councils around have demonstrated and some of them in court bribery and corruption cases going on..To the point where it starts affecting you directly.
I have travelled and do travel the world a lot. For those who know the place, i believe Australia's future will be similar to Chile unless China pulls us out.In either case, not sure this is the place I want to die in.
I would never have thought that up to 5 or so years ago, but I had to realise that even who I thought as a proper (aka MT) leader seems not to change a thing, and the australian mindset is now "corrupted" into entitlement, arrogance vs the China, class warfare.Unless catastrophic recession to reset the game (and do I want that?) , I see a relatively fast paced descent.I am ready to support a country moving on with 50% taxation, not to support a majority of the electorate being beneficiary of my taxes(latest figures unless proven wrong found a majority of australians are now overall tax recipients).Anyway, sun was shining yesterday and air was pure on the beach


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> not so much dole actually, but more disability pensions, refugees, the discriminatory waste on aboriginal affairs




Agree about aborigines and refugees. Disability pensions and NDIS are different things from what I understand. I believe the disability pension is very hard to get, you have to convince more than one doctor that you are unfit for work. The NDIS is there for severely disabled people and their carers who have been underfunded for decades, I don't see how anyone can complain about it.

Perhaps we can mention all the middle class welfare too, negative gearing, super annuation tax discounts and tax free super, family trusts etc etc that all reduce the tax take, not to mention corporate tax avoidance and income shifting.

There are plenty of places where excesses can be curbed if governments have the will.


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## qldfrog (7 July 2017)

NDIS: so you are fine with putting every kids in this country in debt at birth so that carers can get free money now?I am not.



SirRumpole said:


> There are plenty of places where excesses can be curbed if governments have the will.




No doubt Sir Rumpole, but there is no will, nor public will and both sides are only too happy to carry on the slow death while helping themselves.
I do not want to play anymore: especially as i said before when there is no nation building purpose behind the racket and destruction of the country  but just votes gathering and lobby pleasing for cushion jobs (mineral council, unions, etc);
Julia Gillards and Anna Bight to name the last two politicians "jobs for mates" who make me feel like vomiting.And before any feminist launches assault, no I do not care about their sex.
Our rulers do not even pretend decency...And then news after news of incompetence with no responsability(census, medicare data leaks, gov contracts :airplanes, submarines, what's next etc etc) and basic rights smashed days after days:
latest : http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...o-track-cars-via-gps-privacy-concerns/8686634.


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## SirRumpole (7 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> NDIS: so you are fine with putting every kids in this country in debt at birth so that carers can get free money now?I am not.




Do you realise how much money carers save the taxpayer by essentially stuffing their own lives up to care for severely disabled relatives ? If these disabled people were put in institutions the increase in your tax bill would be many times the little bit extra you pay on your Medicare levy.


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## qldfrog (7 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you realise how much money carers save the taxpayer by essentially stuffing their own lives up to care for severely disabled relatives ? If these disabled people were put in institutions the increase in your tax bill would be many times the little bit extra you pay on your Medicare levy.



remind me the billions per year this will cost the country?
oh just forgot that now vs 10y ago, we have a 1 billion a month in interest only expense; if we can not afford it , we can not afford it;
This is my position, same as ridiculous submarines programs etc Not only welfare.
Do we really need to have people starving in the street before we wake up to the reality we can not spend money we do not have?
Any household managing their budget like this country (and we in Oz are not the only one, I agree) would be either bankrupted or in jail.
In all cases the ones who pay are the kids, youngs and unborns..Shame on us.This is much much worse than the neg gearing/house price crisis


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## qldfrog (7 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you realise how much money carers save the taxpayer by essentially stuffing their own lives up to care for severely disabled relatives ? If these disabled people were put in institutions the increase in your tax bill would be many times the little bit extra you pay on your Medicare levy.



of course the increase levy will not come close to even fund NDIS so more debt, more debt and then tax on the rare success of your countries which are not handing you cash to fund (part of) the gap.Next?
Nationalise the banks? (no they are safe, they have enough politician on the paryroll), the land of successfull farmers, miners, the house or filthy rich tenants, etc etc, Zimbabwe style


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## Tisme (9 July 2017)

wayneL said:


> Ive spent over $1000 on specialty text books just in the last 12 month. I've spent countless hours reading, scientific studies,  honing specific skill, and collaborating wirh other professionals to be at the absolute top of my game.




That's cheap for personal/professional development.



wayneL said:


> Loyalty is a two way street, and our country is screwing us over, craft.




The people who screwed us over are those who voted like children instead of objective adults. And they still ignore the truth history, choosing emotional clap trap to exonerate themselves of the mess they promoted like it was a game, instead of the seriousness of electing f#)king imbeciles, like the juvenile idiot gleefully passing lumps of coal around parliament.

We all have to stand up and take the blame for where we are at and try to support someone, anyone who has the political will to devolve the lost rights we once had to express an opinion without prosecution, to pump prime our economy into something that resembles self sufficiency, to engender national pride in being a confident country of larrikins and wowsers.


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## SirRumpole (9 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> and try to support someone, anyone who has the political will to devolve the lost rights we once had to express an opinion without prosecution, to pump prime our economy into something that resembles self sufficiency, to engender national pride in being a confident country of larrikins and wowsers.




Pauline ?


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## Tisme (9 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Pauline ?





I was hoping her ascendancy would force the majors into choosing candidates who have personal freedom and a Nation view rather than gender, sexual, religious, racial and political partisanship as their prime objective.....people who can speak English without cliches like "strategic", "framework", etc to bandaid over real situations.


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## SirRumpole (9 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> I was hoping her ascendancy would force the majors into choosing candidates who have personal freedom and a Nation view rather than gender, sexual, religious, racial and political partisanship as their prime objective.....people who can speak English without cliches like "strategic", "framework", etc to bandaid over real situations.




I think it's more like the majors treading their own paths as usual and either reviling or crawling to Pauline to suit their purposes, playing her for a sucker in other words.


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## qldfrog (9 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's more like the majors treading their own paths as usual and either reviling or crawling to Pauline to suit their purposes, playing her for a sucker in other words.



And by the way, thanks SirRumpule,Tisme, WayneL, Mc Lovin for this conversation which was out of subject cf Abbott but reveal how  our politicians on both sides are out of reach and self serving; I have no doubt if in position of power, we could do together more for the future of this nation than any of the dual parties, with common sense and discussion. Anyone ready to create a third way party of national union?


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## SirRumpole (9 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Anyone ready to create a third way party of national union?




Dick Smith seems one of the most sensible people around. I wonder if he could join forces with Twiggy Forrest as a new Centre based nationalist party.


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## wayneL (10 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Dick Smith seems one of the most sensible people around. I wonder if he could join forces with Twiggy Forrest as a new Centre based nationalist party.



We would certainly need some folks with great unifying and edifying powers. 

Some people that don't name their party after themselves would be a positive start.


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## Tisme (10 July 2017)

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/vid...s-to-be-leader-of-the-opposition-again/#page1


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## McLovin (10 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Dick Smith seems one of the most sensible people around. I wonder if he could join forces with Twiggy Forrest as a new Centre based nationalist party.




If we need more hypocritical self-promoters then Dick's the man.


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## SirRumpole (10 July 2017)

McLovin said:


> If we need more hypocritical self-promoters then Dick's the man.




As opposed to ?


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## Tisme (10 July 2017)

The last Emperor was Hawke and his heirs were Keating and Howard. Turnbull was always one of the rare breed considered to be heir presumptive. Rudd and Gillard were like kids with new toys who couldn't wait to buy shiny things. Tony is a political vandal, that is all he knows and he revels in it.

There are no heir apparents nor presumptive that are readily recognisable living within either of the majors. But I bet there is someone who has an innate ambition somewhere, someone who will come from seemingly nowhere.

Jason Clare is a possible, but improbable.

Aretha Stewart-Brown might just be a PM in about 30 or 40 years.


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## SirRumpole (10 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> The last Emperor was Hawke and his heirs were Keating and Howard. Turnbull was always one of the rare breed considered to be heir presumptive. Rudd and Gillard were like kids with new toys who couldn't wait to buy shiny things. Tony is a political vandal, that is all he knows and he revels in it.
> 
> There are no heir apparents nor presumptive that are readily recognisable living within either of the majors. But I bet there is someone who has an innate ambition somewhere, someone who will come from seemingly nowhere.
> 
> ...




I certainly can't see anyone in the Liberal front bench apart from Bishop who is PM material. The fact that Dutton has been touted as a replacement shows how desperate they are.

Albo is a nice enough guy, but has he got the Keating mongrel in him (does he need it ?). Mark Butler seems on top of his portfolio and is a good communicator. If Tanya got the leadership I would definitely not vote for them.


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## Tisme (8 August 2017)

OK so after years of me preaching the pitfalls of binary voters and party politiking, finally Tony takes on the concept, albeit for an escape route:



> This is the art and science of politics. It is a craft like any other and we need politicians that are able to take the electorate with them on a journey that does not involve binary choice of principled promise keeper vs detestable promise breaker. Our system of parliamentary democracy requires this but too easily our political narratives deny it.



Read more: http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...ck-will-prevail-20170806-gxql9t#ixzz4p6xqcLfO 
Follow us: @FinancialReview on Twitter | financialreview on Facebook


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> OK so after years of me preaching the pitfalls of binary voters and party politiking, finally Tony takes on the concept, albeit for an escape route:




I suppose you can have binary voting where the winners get all the spoils (Howard with a majority in both Houses) or you can have a hotch potch and an almost ungovernable country. 

I guess the fact that we do have a hotch potch means that neither major party has got it right as far as appealing to the majority goes.


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## Tisme (8 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I suppose you can have binary voting where the winners get all the spoils (Howard with a majority in both Houses) or you can have a hotch potch and an almost ungovernable country.
> 
> I guess the fact that we do have a hotch potch means that neither major party has got it right as far as appealing to the majority goes.




They will have to adapt to the analogue of social media and an electorate who are no longer in jobs for life, wander further than their workplace, pub or home, aren't nation builders, detached from their history and are individualistically selfish and untrustworthy.


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## Tisme (10 August 2017)

"And I say to you if you don't like same-sex marriage, vote no. If you're worried about religious freedom and freedom of speech, vote no, and if you don't like political correctness, vote no because voting no will help to stop political correctness in its tracks."

Tony Abbott 09/08/17


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## Tisme (11 August 2017)

The more I ponder Abbott, the more I think he might take two scalps with his latest crusade.


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## PZ99 (11 August 2017)

I think his sister will claim more scalps than he does. He's burnt too many bridges IMO. People are more likely to vote "yes" even if they don't care simply because he says "no". 

What Tony Abbott should be doing now is confine his crusade to issues in his own electorate because he came very close to loosing that seat despite the Govt throwing in millions to save it.


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## Tisme (11 August 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I think his sister will claim more scalps than he does. He's burnt too many bridges IMO. People are more likely to vote "yes" even if they don't care simply because he says "no".
> 
> What Tony Abbott should be doing now is confine his crusade to issues in his own electorate because he came very close to loosing that seat despite the Govt throwing in millions to save it.




I don't think he has his sights set on Fizzer's job, more that he wants to ruin it for him...... him and Bill


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## crackajack (11 August 2017)

Wow these polies are making a killing on their turnover rate. Wish I was in on the scam. So you are Pm for a while, dare say you get a few benefits from that, then disappear for a while then come back, great going guys, labor and liberal, hey hang on a second maybe they are all the one team working together. Jerks


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## Tisme (11 August 2017)




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## Tisme (21 February 2018)

http://tonyabbott.com.au/2018/02/address-sydney-institute-governor-phillip-tower-sydney/



> *ADDRESS TO THE SYDNEY INSTITUTE, GOVERNOR PHILLIP TOWER, SYDNEY*
> February 20, 2018
> 
> Australian politics is at a low ebb for many reasons but one is our tendency to tell _other_ people how to do their jobs rather than to get on with our own.
> ...


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

Tony Abbott said:
			
		

> My issue is not immigration; it’s the _rate_ of immigration at a time of stagnant wages, clogged infrastructure, soaring house prices _and_, in Melbourne at least, ethnic gangs that are testing the resolve of police.
> 
> _*It’s a basic law of economics that increasing the supply of labour depresses wages; and that increasing demand for housing boosts price. *_ Such is the unreality of our political discourse, though, that amidst great concern about unaffordable housing and stagnant wages, no one on the front bench of government or opposition had been prepared to raise the one big contributing factor that is wholly and solely within the federal government’s control – until Peter Dutton finally said last week that immigration could be cut “if it’s in our national interest”.




I totally agree. That was the point of Howard's immigration boost, to reduce wages. Well it worked, and now it seems to be choking economic growth.


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## Tisme (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I totally agree. That was the point of Howard's immigration boost, to reduce wages. Well it worked, and now it seems to be choking economic growth.




Yes it's a simple equation we economics students were taught back in third year high. Everything is elastic and rubber band knots are very hard to undo without breaking.


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## PZ99 (21 February 2018)

I would suggest one of Abbott's advisors remind the Coalition about baby bonuses and paid maternal leave if population growth really does stifle growth.

I think it's a crack up how the Coalition go on about "depressed wages" when they've been attacking wages both in Govt and opposition ever since the wage accord of 30+ years ago.

When you have someone like Abbott crapping on about stagnant wages you know he's either copied and pasted a speech from someone who actually does have a clue or he's making a populist statement in an attempt to save his political career.

It's an own goal either way.


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## Tisme (21 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> http://tonyabbott.com.au/2018/02/address-sydney-institute-governor-phillip-tower-sydney/





PZ99 said:


> I would suggest one of Abbott's advisors remind the Coalition about baby bonuses and paid maternal leave if population growth really does stifle growth.
> 
> I think it's a crack up how the Coalition go on about "depressed wages" when they've been attacking wages both in Govt and opposition ever since the wage accord of 30+ years ago.
> 
> ...




He's a master of the lowest common denominator


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I would suggest one of Abbott's advisors remind the Coalition about baby bonuses and paid maternal leave if population growth really does stifle growth.




I would also suggest that it's a different situation now to 30-40 years ago when we needed migrants to work in the factories and fields. So many jobs have disappeared, the cake may be getting bigger for some due to automation, but the people sharing the cake have increased, therefore less cake for most.



> When you have someone like Abbott crapping on about stagnant wages you know he's either copied and pasted a speech from someone who actually does have a clue or he's making a populist statement in an attempt to save his political career.




Both of the above.

Doesn't mean he isn't right though.


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## Tisme (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I would also suggest that it's a different situation now to 30-40 years ago when we needed migrants to work in the factories and fields. So many jobs have disappeared, the cake may be getting bigger for some due to automation, but the people sharing the cake have increased, therefore less cake for most.




"Populate or Perish", was predicated on an homogeneous mix of like mined, like cultured, high skilled etc to repel the hoards at the gates. Instead we opened the gates to those low skilled and superstitious hoards.


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## PZ99 (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I would also suggest that it's a different situation now to 30-40 years ago when we needed migrants to work in the factories and fields. So many jobs have disappeared, the cake may be getting bigger for some due to automation, but the people sharing the cake have increased, therefore less cake for most.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It sounds good on paper but so far that analogy has been historically inaccurate. Does anyone have evidence of a direct connection between migration and wages over the last 10 years? Let's not forget many people come to Australia but many people also leave. The ratio of arrivals to departures has been down trending for the last 10 years. Net migration actually fell for 3 years in a row. Also bear in mind most of the population increase is in Sydney and Melbourne - economic powerhouses, both of 'em.

The way I see it is the era of lower wages started in 2011/12 when the NSW O'Farrell Govt set a 2.5% maximum wage growth policy for public servants. Everyone else was getting 4% plus. This disease then spread to other states and ultimately the private sector where it stands today. These days you won't even get 2% unless you forfeit your left jatz cracker.

That's capitalism for ya, a race to the arse end of the far queue. Suffice to say the Abbott / Turnbull policy of slashing penalty rates reeks of wage destruction as well.

As far as I'm concerned wage growth comes down to consumer confidence followed by economic growth from higher population, workforce participation, supporting infrastructure and productivity.

Deserted towns just don't cut it these days unless they're full of good traders / investors 

Of course the Abbott Govt's slash and burn 2014 budget didn't help any of the above matters.
That's why they were forced to change to a growth budget in 2015.
In my view if we had that 2015 budget in 2014 Abbott would still be the PM today.

Then again, he's still a dill so maybe not


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

PZ99 said:


> As far as I'm concerned wage growth comes down to consumer confidence followed by economic growth from higher population, workforce participation, supporting infrastructure and productivity.




Consumer confidence, definitely, and that means higher wages and therefore more discretionary spending.

Higher population does not guarantee higher spending if those people are scratching around trying to eke out a living and paying most of it on non discretionary spending like rent, mortgages, health insurance, power prices, government charges etc.

Better to have a lower, but well off population instead of people living on the streets and dependent on others.


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## PZ99 (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Consumer confidence, definitely, and that means higher wages and therefore more discretionary spending.
> 
> Higher population does not guarantee higher spending if those people are scratching around trying to eke out a living and paying most of it on non discretionary spending like rent, mortgages, health insurance, power prices, government charges etc.
> 
> Better to have a lower, but well off population instead of people living on the streets and dependent on others.



I agree with your last sentence although IMO it's only possible with decentralisation - jobs in the sticks and all that.

Non discretionary spending sounds bad but it still contributes to GDP and Govt programs such as health care and pensions.


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## PZ99 (23 February 2018)

"But for my efforts in 2010 and 2013, (Malcolm) Turnbull wouldn't be in office and his ministers wouldn't be in office, so I think they should listen with a degree of respect,"
"They are not such geniuses they are the possessors of all political and economic wisdom."

http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...s/news-story/be2e204cabe7d210bbe5666e85bc2661

What a hilarious statement. Ditch the bitch maybe ?


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## Tisme (27 July 2018)

Someone didn't get ABC Barry's permission first:


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## Knobby22 (17 April 2019)

According to news.com today Tony is now ready to take the leadership back after the election  though he will wait to be asked.


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## PZ99 (17 April 2019)

Yep, we'll have him back. He can block everything in the senate with empty rants like last time.


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## qldfrog (17 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yep, we'll have him back. He can block everything in the senate with empty rants like last time.



Talk about a dead fish, after ensuring next elections are lost to labour, he might ensure they stay in power another round...


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