# Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid dead!



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

The Police in the article make a good job of justifying why they had too shoot this kid - BUT the bit ive never got is why they have to shoot them dead, why not the leg or shoulder ??!! 

Three cops fired on this knife wielding teenager at once.

Why not a stun gun or hell even throw a fishing net over him.(or something)

I think the shoot to kill policy is wrong and needs changing, the option of the death penalty should be given to our judges not out police officers ESPECIALLY considering the technolgy we have today.



> Police have shot dead a 15-year-old boy who they say threatened them with two knives following a brief standoff in a skate park in Melbourne's inner north.
> 
> Police said they fired warning shots and used two hits of capsicum spray to subdue the boy, with no apparent effect




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=695956


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## Fitzroy (12 December 2008)

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Sorry NC have to disagree.

I live just round the corner from All Nations and I regularly take my 2 year old and 8 week old to this park.  If it deters any other teenagers from going around with knifes then the policy works for me.

And being a pommie, we could always have a UK system where police have no power other then to risk themselves to arrest the kids and then have them back on the street after a short period in youth detention!  

I feel for the family don't get me wrong, but I can't seem to get carried away defending someone knowingly in the wrond.  If the police feel it's the best defence then so be it.


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

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I can accept that opinion ....

This guys a kid though, what age would change your mind ..... 14 ... 10 ..... 8 ?


Its easy to subdue somene with todays technology and be non lethal.

If we want to embrace the death penalty on the streets why not in our court rooms ?


AND what sort of example does this set to the rest of society ?? If someone threatens you , you kill them, thats the example and lesson it provides ...


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## Aussiejeff (12 December 2008)

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numbercruncher said:


> I can accept that opinion ....
> 
> This guys a kid though, what age would change your mind ..... 14 ... 10 ..... 8 ?
> 
> ...




I've never understood why Vet tranquilliser guns/darts couldn't be used - even in preference to the other option of front line tasers? 

They seem to work just fine and dandy in subduing any number of dangerous "maneaters"!

Of course, Police are trained to kill. I guess we can't take away that ultimate rush for them by issuing pi$$y Tasers or dart guns eh?


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## tech/a (12 December 2008)

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Put the knife down!
Put the Knife down!
Put the knife down!

This is why police shoot people with knives.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?...uries&um=1&hl=en&lr=&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENAU268&sa=X


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

only shift sargeants etc are issued with Tasers (not sure about Vic).

Front line police are expected to "contain" the situation until the senior cop arrives.

tell that to the iced up ******** coming at you with a syringe/knife.

how many chances did the kid need? Capsicum and warning shots?  AFAIK cops aren't supposed to give warning shots.

Spare a thought for the police officers in this situation.


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## Fitzroy (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

Unfortunately we don't know the circumstances of the incident and each is different.  Have you seen the size of some of these teenagers these days!!!!

I agree I may have been a bit hasty in my reply but how do we stop it happening?? They are not going to commit a 15yr old to the chair for carrying a knife(s) in a park.  And with all the political correctness going on I doubt anyone would actually get the penalty, the appeals and then human rights etc etc etc... by 20 years by the time it happens.

Bring back compulsory cadets and 2yr military service I reckon. Get some real skills and discipline.


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## wayneL (12 December 2008)

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Thanks, I really wanted to see that. 

Looks more like a machete or Samurai sword attack though to be honest.


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## tech/a (12 December 2008)

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wayneL said:


> Thanks, I really wanted to see that.
> 
> Looks more like a machete or Samurai sword attack though to be honest.




Yeh sure does It was a knife!


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

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wayneL said:


> Thanks, I really wanted to see that.
> 
> Looks more like a machete or Samurai sword attack though to be honest.





Yes Tech that really pretty gross not really needed ??


So if we support shooting Kids with knifes dead , why not apply it to other " crimes " ?

Example a drunk driver who refuses to stop his Car is a hell of a lot more dangerous , could possibly take out a dozen people - instead of trying to pull them over maybe we should send the police helicopter equiped with sniper after them ?

My issue isnt with shooting him its the shoot to KILL policy - three cops shot him in the chest, witnesses report 5 shots - they are administerig the death penalty.

Im all for the death penalty in our courts !


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## ColB (12 December 2008)

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To all the bleeding hearts/sympathisers:

-Have you seen how big some of these 15 year olds are these days?
-As Techa stated there probably would have been several commands for the "YOUTH' (not kid) to drop the knife! (No two knives)
-Capsicum spray used to no effect
- warning shots fired

What more do you want the Police to do.  They have a responsibility to contain the situation and no Police force have trained marksmen driving around in the divvy van ready to shoot a knife out of someones hand or pop their kneecap.  *They are trained to shoot for the main body mass not trained to kill.*

As has been said, you have to feel sorry for the offenders family, but then it appears that they have failed to.  But I am happy that there is one less of this type of person that could have taken out some innocent person who wouldn't have had the capacity to defend themselves from a person with 2 knives


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

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numbercruncher said:


> Yes Tech that really pretty gross and not a knife wound. !




looks like one to me.


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## Aussiejeff (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

Maybe we could all arm ourselves with .45 Magnums for protection.

Imagine that! Make my day! No more punks to annoy US! 

Works a treat for Unca Sam?



PS: One could consider this a form of "Protectionism"?


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

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Shows how cultures differ ....

In Greece the nation goes ballistic and riot after Police shoot a 15 year old kid dead ....

Should we shoot people armed with sticks dead too ? how about armed with bare hands, I mean they can snap necks in a secod ?


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

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Aussiejeff said:


> Maybe we could all arm ourselves with .45 Magnums for protection.
> 
> Imagine that! Make my day! No more punks to annoy US!
> 
> ...




Good plan I feel like I need protection from fellow ASFers lol





Another thing why is it always Victorian Police shooting people dead ? are Victorians more violent or are Victorian police more trigger happy ?


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## wayneL (12 December 2008)

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tech/a said:


> It was a knife!




Only according to a bloke that claims that he takes carbon fibre bowie knives onto planes.

I'm sure a knife could easily do that sort of damage, but still looks like a sword attack to me... ***not to diminish the seriousness of knives in any way mind you.

BWTFDIK


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## ColB (12 December 2008)

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> Originally posted by *AussieJeff* "...Maybe we could all arm ourselves with .45 Magnums for protection.
> 
> Imagine that! Make my day! No more punks to annoy US!
> 
> Works a treat for Unca Sam?




And what would you do with a 45 magnum aussiejeff when you or you're wife, son, daughter are confronted and asked to give up your mobile or cash or Nike shoes?  

Are you going run, talk to him, tell him you'll get his mum and that its going to be alright or is the gunslinger cowboy from Wodonga going to use his 45 to try and disable the thug.

Well if you miss or do not disbale the man with the knife your chances of staying alive are pretty slim.


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## Panacea (12 December 2008)

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ColB said:


> What more do you want the Police to do.  They have a responsibility to contain the situation and no Police force have trained marksmen driving around in the divvy van ready to shoot a knife out of someones hand or pop their kneecap.  *They are trained to shoot for the main body mass not trained to kill.*




Exactly right. The adrenaline dump that happens in those few seconds is enough to make your hands shake, pulse race, etc. Trying to shoot someone in the leg or arm is unrealistic and dangerous. It's a sad thing, but it has to be done.


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## Bushman (12 December 2008)

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Victorian mental health program fails another poor kid. Guaranteed it is either substance abuse (ice, chroming, meth) or he was suffering from schizophrenia or the like. System has so many holes because it is still a taboo subject (to a degree). 

Not the cops fault - imagine how scary it would be to have some kid wielding knives approaching you. Also, to be fair to the Victoria police force, the incidence of fatal police shootings have decreased dramatically over the last decade or so. I have thought about nets and the like but how would you apply it? 

Also where were the parents? He was 15 years old... 

I live in Fairfield (next suburb across from Northcote) and it is a bit close to home.


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Panacea said:


> Exactly right. The adrenaline dump that happens in those few seconds is enough to make your hands shake, pulse race, etc. Trying to shoot someone in the leg or arm is unrealistic and dangerous. It's a sad thing, but it has to be done.





Cops that shake should be issued with Shot guns not Glocks, thats dangerous.


What if our Knife weilding bandit was a Girl with blonde hair and angelic eyes ? Still ok to squeeze 5 rounds into her chest ?


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## cuttlefish (12 December 2008)

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tech/a said:


> Yeh sure does It was a knife!





"It's only a flesh wound!"

(as in Monty Python's black knight scene )
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kNKSzmM44gE


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## ColB (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



> Originally posted by *NumberCruncher*  "...What if our Knife weilding bandit was a Girl with blonde hair and angelic eyes ? Still ok to squeeze 5 rounds into her chest ?..."




Yeah that would certainly make a difference!  I'm sure the cops would have been confronted with countless situations where an offender advances on them with a knife with 'ANGELIC EYES'

Yeah, that'd change my mind.  I'd just let her knife me because she looks like an angel.


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## Ageo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

1st of all cops arnt allowed to shoot anywhere else besides the Centre of Mass (Chest) since if they miss the leg/shoulder (which its very hard to hit if you have shot a pistol before) the bullet could deflect and hit something/someone else.

2nd For all those that whinged about the stun guns tell me all cops shouldnt be issued with them now?

The only other option is a shotgun with rubber pellets,


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



ColB said:


> Yeah that would certainly make a difference!  I'm sure the cops would have been confronted with countless situations where an offender advances on them with a knife with 'ANGELIC EYES'
> 
> Yeah, that'd change my mind.  *I'd just let her knife me because she looks like an angel*.





Not real bright Col ....

Id shoot her in the leg once .... but it sounds like im a better shot than your average shakey Victorian police officer.

Or 5 times in the chest if I wanted her dead ?


Judge, Jury and Executioner - what power !!


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

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numbercruncher said:


> Cops that shake should be issued with Shot guns not Glocks, thats dangerous.
> 
> 
> What if our Knife weilding bandit was a Girl with blonde hair and angelic eyes ? Still ok to squeeze 5 rounds into her chest ?




Sorry mate but I think both those comments are unreasonable and unfair.

I'd rather take a hit from a glock then from a shotgun.
NO ONE can control adrenalin. It is a naturally occuring hormone (?)
It doesn't matter who is coming at you it's the weapon that you are thinking about.


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> 1st of all cops arnt allowed to shoot anywhere else besides the Centre of Mass (Chest) since if they miss the leg/shoulder (which its very hard to hit if you have shot a pistol before) the bullet could deflect and hit something/someone else.





Why are they aloud to fire warning shots then ?

A bullet could go right through a 15 year old kid anyways.


I heard its alot more expensive to compensate someone whos permanently disabled rather than just plain old dead .... Does that play a role in policy ?


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

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numbercruncher said:


> Not real bright Col ....
> 
> Id shoot her in the leg once .... but it sounds like im a better shot than your average shakey Victorian police officer.
> !!





Not trying to pick on you here mate 

Have you ever been attacked by a human with  a knife?
Have you ever been attacked by an animal when you have held a gun?


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## explod (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

Rotten thread all.   As an ex patrol officer and supervisor on the streets of the burbs for many years I can say there a few right or wrong answers in these cases.  Three years ago this kid was 12 years old, some of those cops were probably not in the job.   Big decision

The overriding police regulation and legal position is that shooting to kill is justified by you, the cop, if your life or some person you are responsible to protect is in imminnent life threatening danger.   The danger must be immediate and there is no other alternative.   Backing off and containing the situation is one well covered in training (or was in my day)  Time for offender to cool down and for reinforcements and senior members to arrive.

We do not know all the circumstances of this case, they will come out in due  course when there is inquest/action/enquiry.

We can only feel for the family of the child killed and the young police who will be going through hell right now and for the rest of thier lives.


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## Ageo (12 December 2008)

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Aussiejeff said:


> Maybe we could all arm ourselves with .45 Magnums for protection.
> 
> Imagine that! Make my day! No more punks to annoy US!
> 
> ...





This is called CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) and in the U.S only worthy citizens can obtain 1. Now if you look at states in the U.S the ones that allow CCW are the ones that actually have the least amount of crime (if you want stats i can provide that). Remember a criminal can obtain a firearm illegally much easier than a Law abiding citizen can and criminals obviously would work in an area that is not patrolled by CCW citizens (since they have a high rate of being shot and killed which makes them think twice).


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> Sorry mate but I think both those comments are unreasonable and unfair.
> 
> I'd rather take a hit from a glock then from a shotgun.
> NO ONE can control adrenalin. It is a naturally occuring hormone (?)
> It doesn't matter who is coming at you it's the weapon that you are thinking about.





Yes sorry probably a litle unfair ....

I know im in the minority on this forum/thread (maybe even in our americanised Australian society ) - but i just cant understand why we need 5 bullets in the chest of someone armed with a knife !! It wasnt like they were jumped on from behind a bush they had time to talk to the offender AND even spray him - so surely they had time to use bullets in a less lethal manner ....

Anyway this might trigger a review of the process/policy - I dont blame the cops they were doing as Instructed/trained/ordered - their management make the rules - I do note however that one officer did NOT fire on the kid - will they get in trouble ?


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## Ageo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



numbercruncher said:


> Why are they aloud to fire warning shots then ?
> 
> A bullet could go right through a 15 year old kid anyways.
> 
> ...




Warning shots are fired in the air mate not on the ground or anywhere else.

As for your last statement i doubt cops would enjoy shooting someone dead (especially a 15yr old).


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



explod said:


> Rotten thread all.   As an ex patrol officer and supervisor on the streets of the burbs for many years I can say there a few right or wrong answers in these cases.  Three years ago this kid was 12 years old, some of those cops were probably not in the job.   Big decision
> 
> The overriding police regulation and legal position is that shooting to kill is justified by you, the cop, if your life or some person you are responsible to protect is in imminnent life threatening danger.   The danger must be immediate and there is no other alternative.   Backing off and containing the situation is one well covered in training (or was in my day)  Time for offender to cool down and for reinforcements and senior members to arrive.
> 
> ...





Thanks very much Explod for adding balanced and professional opinion to this subject.


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## cuttlefish (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> 2nd For all those that whinged about the stun guns tell me all cops shouldnt be issued with them now?




I haven't read the story but I can understand the police having to resort to what they did in this situation - If the kid was on ice then it would have been even more unpredictable.  Two knives, capsicum spray, warning shots - at some point its easy to see that they would have become scared for their own safety.

And I agree this is a good reason to introduce tazers for general police use, which I have no problem with, as long as the conditions surrounding their usage are that they are a weapon of last resort only, and any tazer usage is treated as seriously as a firearms discharge/wounding - i.e. reviewed in the same way etc. - same paperwork - same risks of assault charges for the police etc.


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> Warning shots are fired in the air mate not on the ground or anywhere else.
> 
> As for your last statement i doubt cops would enjoy shooting someone dead (especially a 15yr old).





What happens if warning shot from up in Air lands on my thick skull ?


Where did i say they would enjoy it ? they are following orders of a CRAP system.


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## Ageo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



cuttlefish said:


> I haven't read the story but I can understand the police having to resort to what they did in this situation - If the kid was on ice then it would have been even more unpredictable.  Two knives, capsicum spray, warning shots - at some point its easy to see that they would have become scared for their own safety.
> 
> And I agree this is a good reason to introduce tazers for general police use, which I have no problem with, as long as the conditions surrounding their usage are that they are a weapon of last resort only, and any tazer usage is treated as seriously as a firearms discharge/wounding - i.e. reviewed in the same way etc. - same paperwork - same risks of assault charges for the police etc.




I agree a firearm should only be used when everything all other options are exhausted.


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

I seriously don't think coppers are allowed to shoot warning shots.

Otherwise they'd be shooting off their guns all the time.

I also doubt they would shoot up into the air as well.

What goes up must come down.

Saying that, a copper shooting his gun into the ground wouldn't have the same impact as shooting up.


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## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> Not trying to pick on you here mate
> 
> Have you ever been attacked by a human with  a knife?
> Have you ever been attacked by an animal when you have held a gun?





No sam I havnt ....


And i doubt any of those Police officers have ever been *attacked* with with a knife ?


Shooting legs and shoulders immobilise - Shooting chests kill - change the policy is all im suggesting.

Death penalty is awesome - from a Judge and Jury.


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## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

My point is you would not have enough time to worry about legs etc...

Someone is running at you with a knife. Pepper spray has failed. The attacker would most likely be less than 10 metres away.

You are in self preservation mode.

As we all know things happen a lot faster as they occur.

:0


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## Agentm (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

i saw this crazed chick in a chemist screaming at the staff, as i walked by, everyone else on the footpath ignored it, walked passed the shop and no one helped.

i stopped, and assessed the situation, there was a young teenager, who was an employee, in the open store, and the pharmacist and an assistant behind the counter in the back, and this lady at the front of the shop going ape.. screaming she had her boyfriend coming and when he arrived they would do them all in..  

i walked in calmly and walked past this lady, she was screaming with rage still, pushing over shop fittings and throwing anything she could grab around. i stopped a fair way down the shop and put myself infront of the teenage shop assistant and this lady, i held an nonthreatening stance, left my sunglasses on faced her and said nothing.

when dealing with mental illness, or unstable emotional conditions, its not important to engage or understand whats happening, i just wanted no harm to come to this employee, that was my only goal.

in an appropriated moment i asked the pharmacist if the police were called, he nodded.

we waited 

as relaxed as i may have appeared my heart was at its maximum, i felt my neck throbbing and my heart pumping in my chest. the 3 minutes for the police to arrive felt like an eternity, i had the height and weight advantage and felt i could knock her out cold if i needed to should she endanger me.

ok, i put myself in danger, my choice, but the employee stood no chance against this lady. 

no one was engaging her in a conversation, as long as she was damaging the shop then no one was being physically harmed, in the back of my mind i was looking at paths out of the place should her threat come good and her boyfriend come in.. 

police went past and went to the wrong chemist a few hundred meters away.. the lady ran.. i followed her out,  she turned and came back. i backed up and went all the way to where i was before.. protecting the employee..

thank christ the cops arrived a minute later....

you need to be extremely careful in these circumstances, people who are behaving irrationally are not going to be come down by someone talking to them or instructing them, sure you have to take control at some stage and bring the person  into order if you can,  but when their minds are in total disorder, and in the case of this 15 year old boy, who has lost his father and was in a massive state of confusion, rage and perhaps neurosis.

we dont know if anyone has failed him, i think the police acted according to their training, i dont think any blame should be delivered. i heard the interview with the police on ABC radio, the 4 officers are shattered distressed and will need extensive counciling.. as will the family of this boy.


its tragic, beyond words, no one wants this outcome.


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## Boggo (12 December 2008)

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ColB said:


> To all the bleeding hearts/sympathisers:
> 
> -Have you seen how big some of these 15 year olds are these days?
> -As Techa stated there probably would have been several commands for the "YOUTH' (not kid) to drop the knife! (No two knives)
> ...




I agree entirely, sick of hearing about cowardly thugs, hoons and the "poor me, I didn't know what I was doin cos I was on drugs yer honour" fraternity.

Bring back national service, give them a haircut, yank out any bling and kick the little ****s out of bed at 5 am every morning. 
Do that for two years and you could halve the size of the required police force.


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## explod (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Boggo said:


> I agree entirely, sick of hearing about cowardly thugs, hoons and the "poor me, I didn't know what I was doin cos I was on drugs yer honour" fraternity.
> 
> Bring back national service, give them a haircut, yank out any bling and kick the little ****s out of bed at 5 am every morning.
> Do that for two years and you could halve the size of the required police force.




Bit young for national service.   Some went in to serve at 15 in 1914 to go to France.

I work voluntarily to try and steer young people onto the right path.  Could you let us in on what you are doing about these terrible young people.


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## Arkad (12 December 2008)

Some thoughtful responses to this post for sure. I wasn't at the scene and don't have all the facts, the same as all who have posted here.

I don't want to criticise the police involved. I'm not qualified to do that.

But overall, I can't get past one simple impression.

This always seems to happen in Victoria.


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## Prospector (12 December 2008)

When I was in the police force  I was taught to shoot in an area which would kill.  If you are in a situation where you use your gun, it is only a 'life and death' situation; which means that someone else's life is threatened - yours, or someone else.  In which case you need to shoot at the largest area, which is the torso, ie the heart - the implication being that if you miss, then the offender will continue to threaten someone else's life.

In the current tragedy, the issue is therefore whether the Police were presented with a real threat to someone else's life.

It will live with the Police forever.  It is not something they did lightly.  They will grieve.  

Shooting someone should never, ever, ever be done as a deterrent to others; quite simply, that would be murder.


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## awg (12 December 2008)

terrible shame for all concerned.

an old school acquaintance of mine was recently shot dead in very similar circs.

he was schizo, off his meds apparently, had a domestic argument.

I used to work with a former police weapons trainer.

they have VERY specific training.

2 shots, at the torso. 

reason, impact of heavy calibre bullet prevents any forward motion of attacker, thereby preventing officers being stabbed.

simple. stopping power. death is an unfortunate by-product

they do not fire wounding shots at limbs, as the risk of hitting bystanders is too high.

it is very unfortunate that Taysers were not used/available?

i dont know the details of the story.

most police who fatally shoot a person are medically discharged, as they cannot cope with the psychological problems afterward.

many people with psychosis are entirely irrational, and it is not uncommon for severely disturbed to actually want to be shot...it is called "suicide by cop"


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## Boggo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



explod said:


> Could you let us in on what you are doing about these terrible young people.




I go to work and pay the taxes that keep their parents sitting in front of the Kevin07 new plasma tv's and I pay taxes to fund a police force that is required to protect me from their precious little offspring.

I do not do it voluntarily, I see many other areas where my taxes could be put to better use, hospital funding to support the elderly who have paid the same taxes all their lives is an example perhaps.


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## Buddy (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Agentm said:


> ok, i put myself in danger, my choice, but the employee stood no chance against this lady.




Good work M. But doesn't sound like a "lady" to me.


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## Ageo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> I seriously don't think coppers are allowed to shoot warning shots.
> 
> Otherwise they'd be shooting off their guns all the time.
> 
> ...





Hmm you obviously have never fired warning shots before, if you fire at the ground it can increase the chances of the bullet deflecting (it will definately off a hard surface and close distance) When a shot is fired in the air by the time its starting to fall all the energy in the bullet is gone which means its like a small piece of lead falling on your head (if it were to hit your head which is highly unlikely).

Anyone that shoots on the ground as a warning shot should never be in control of a firearm.





numbercruncher said:


> No sam I havnt ....
> 
> Shooting legs and shoulders immobilise - Shooting chests kill - change the policy is all im suggesting..




hmmm you still dont get it do you? go and fire a pistol at a range for a week then times that by 100 times in difficulty and come back to me with the same question 

too many movies and tv shows i say


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## prawn_86 (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Cops that shake should be issued with Shot guns not Glocks, thats dangerous.




Yep that would be fantastic. A shotgun would give no chance of survival from a short range.



Ageo said:


> I agree a firearm should only be used when everything all other options are exhausted.




Agreed and after capsicum spary, verbal warnings, and warning shots i think they had used all their current options



numbercruncher said:


> Shooting legs and shoulders immobilise - Shooting chests kill - change the policy is all im suggesting.




I actually cant tell if your serious NC or are just trolling. 

Aim a pistol at a lunging/fast moving persons leg? Doesnt sound like a smart idea to me, too easy to miss when you have adrenalin running too.

Give them a shotgun so they can just blow the legs off and the kid can bleed to death...


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*

Hmm you obviously have never fired warning shots before, 

Why no, I haven't   I have, however had extensive use of a variety of firearms since the age of 10. 

"if you fire at the ground it can increase the chances of the bullet deflecting (it will definately off a hard surface and close distance)" 

My point is refering to this case.  They were in a park.  Chances of richochet are slim when the bullet is shot into dirt (and I'm not talking on an angle) Just like they say, never hunt in a river bed.


"When a shot is fired in the air by the time its starting to fall all the energy in the bullet is gone which means its like a small piece of lead falling on your head (if it were to hit your head which is highly unlikely)."

There are numerous cases of people being killed or injured from bullets coming down. In a built up area such as a city I would say the chances of being hit are quite high.  Also Police need to retrieve such bullet for forensics.

"Anyone that shoots on the ground as a warning shot should never be in control of a firearm."

 I agree.  I would take it furthur by saying any police officer that shoots a warning shot should never be in control of a firearm.


----------



## Agentm (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Buddy said:


> Good work M. But doesn't sound like a "lady" to me.




i asked the chemist a few days later what the outcome was.. she was to spend at least 3 days in the pen.  i guess the charges laid would have been heard by trial at a later date.

sam

the police did fire 2 warning shots at the ground, which stopped the kid for a fe moments, the police from what i hear were backing out but one member was in a position where he couldnt. hence the use of firearms at the body.

one good question thats not been answered, but will be at some stage, is why they did not secure the area first and then take control by use of dogs or SOG vehicle.  and whether there was the possibilty of a CAT team intervention being used on this.

no one can blame the officers, they would act according to training, when you in this situation you have to act and react as best you can.

re the bullet killing you if fired in the sky, was tackled by myth busters recently.. straight up in the air cant kill you. the lower you bring the mussel down from vertical to horizontal the better the velocity and impact.


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

I haven't been keeping up with the story since early this morning.

two seconds on google.

http://www.local6.com/news/4084756/detail.html


----------



## prawn_86 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Agentm said:


> re the bullet killing you if fired in the sky, was tackled by myth busters recently.. straight up in the air cant kill you. the lower you bring the mussel down from vertical to horizontal the better the velocity and impact.




Thats exactly right, basic physics really.

If something goes directly up (give or take a few degrees) it is eventually *stopped * (only for an instant) by gravity and begins to fall back to Earth and can only reach its maximum velocity, which in this case would not be sufficient enough for a small piece of metal to kill someone.

If however, it was fired at, say 60 degrees, then it would still have its velocity (diminishing slowly due to air resistance), plus the power gravity puts on it as it pulls it in an arc back down to Earth


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

I notice a few of you justify the shooting of this teenager because you ASSumed he was a crack addict or whatever .....



> There was no history of drug use or psychological problems with the boy but he had been involved in a minor assault that police knew about, he said.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=695956


----------



## prawn_86 (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> I notice a few of you justify the shooting of this teenager because you ASSumed he was a crack addict or whatever .....




Well he wasnt the sharpest tool in the shed if he didnt stop after repeated warnings.

You have to admit that NC


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



prawn_86 said:


> Thats exactly right, basic physics really.
> 
> If something goes directly up (give or take a few degrees) it is eventually *stopped * (only for an instant) by gravity and begins to fall back to Earth and can only reach its maximum velocity, which in this case would not be sufficient enough for a small piece of metal to kill someone.
> 
> If however, it was fired at, say 60 degrees, then it would still have its velocity (diminishing slowly due to air resistance), plus the power gravity puts on it as it pulls it in an arc back down to Earth




i refer you to my post above.


----------



## GumbyLearner (12 December 2008)

This is an unfortunate situation. I do not envy the danger that our police face in their working lives.


----------



## prawn_86 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> i refer you to my post above.




The article doesnt mention the angle that the bullet was fired at, it just says "in the air".

Also the fact that the bullet hit the victims heart suggests that the bullet was not fired directly (within a few degrees) upwards, otherwise it would have entered through the head or shoulder, which wouldnt happen cause there wouldnt be enough velocity coming down...

The distance the bullet travelled also suggest it was shot at a lower than 90 degree angle, say 75 degrees, cause it travelled a fair distance before it hit anyone.


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/610059.html


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Well he wasnt the sharpest tool in the shed if he didnt stop after repeated warnings.
> 
> You have to admit that NC




It appears that way prawn , atleast unable to control his anger ? -


----------



## GumbyLearner (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> It appears that way prawn , atleast unable to control his anger ? -




This lady seems to think that drugs were involved. What a shame.

THE AGE
Woman describes horror of skate park tragedy
Reko Rennie 
December 12, 2008 - 12:53PM 
A woman has described her terror as she hid behind a tree while a knife-wielding teen - later shot dead by police - roared in fury.

Hariet Stewart, 29, of Northcote, had been shopping and was walking through a carpark adjacent to the scene when she saw the teenager armed with large knives. 

"I turned around because he screamed a really big roar and then he was walking really kind of angrily with these two big knives," Ms Stewart said.

She hid behind a tree and heard police rushing to the scene. 

"Police (came) rushing over and then I heard what was probably like seven or eight gun shots," she said.

Ms Stewart said she didn't know what had happened, but as soon as she heard the gunshots, she rushed home.

She said the teenager, who had a shaved head and was wearing skateboarding clothing, obviously wasn't an adult. 

"From what I could tell, he looked like he was incredibly angry, or on ice or something because he was quite terrifying and he had enormous knives.

"Really big knives, I wondered whether they were sawn-off shotguns or something because he was holding them downwards and storming along with them."

Ms Stewart said there were a number of shoppers around at the time. It was dark and no-one knew what was happening. 

She said that she thought it was "outrageous" that he was shot by police.

"I think a kid that's gotten out of control on drugs, the police should be able to handle the situation without murdering him.

"I mean he was terrifying, don't get me wrong, and I'm not easily scared, but he was just a kid. I think it's outrageous.

"I was pretty scared, I guess, and actually just alarmed that the police might be actually shooting someone."

She said that there appeared to have been enough police cars rushing to the scene and there appeared to be no justification for the boy's death. 

Maybe if this kid wasnt loaded up on drugs this could have been prevented. I think more needs to be to tackle the drug problem.

Like this:


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

My sympathy goes to police officers.

Parents had their chance, 15 years old male lost his and poor police personnel will be through investigations, reviews, hearings and God knows what else, because of ..


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Many people on this thread say the Kid deserved to die .... sounds like he was insane on ice or something .... (maybe even his first "hit" ? )

How do we feel about the Sydney top cop in the 120m Ice cartel(on previous page of this thread), does he deserve to die ?


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Boggo said:


> I agree entirely, sick of hearing about cowardly thugs, hoons and the "poor me, I didn't know what I was doin cos I was on drugs yer honour" fraternity.
> 
> Bring back national service, give them a haircut, yank out any bling and kick the little ****s out of bed at 5 am every morning.
> Do that for two years and you could halve the size of the required police force.




Yeah nice.

As someone that has been beaten up by police, I don't have much sympathy for them, nor do I believe anything they say when violence is involved from the police side.

You only have to look at the foreshore footage from WA police a few years back where officers were laying into a man, while he was pinned on the ground and completely defenceless. The officer was cleared from an internal investigation, and only through media pressure was he brought to justice. It's these sorts of things that are witnessed by youth which leads to an attitude against police IMO.



Prospector said:


> It will live with the Police forever.  It is not something they did lightly.  They will grieve.



It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

From my experience, a lot of officers really do love inflicting violence on others, and many seem to join the force simply to do that.

I don't think many officers will grieve at all.


prawn_86 said:


> Well he wasnt the sharpest tool in the shed if he didnt stop after repeated warnings.
> 
> You have to admit that NC




The thing is Prawn, you don't know his history, I don't know his history. They wouldn't know if he had a history of unprovoked violence against him from police like in my situation.

Because if police approached me like this, I couldn't necessarily guarantee my reaction either, because of my history. I am simply **** scared of cops because I know what they can do to you legally, without any recourse at all.



Happy said:


> My sympathy goes to police officers.



Mine doesn't.

I have a very very low regard for police. I'm sure this wont go any way for helping that, nor will it for most people I imagine.


----------



## Ageo (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> Hmm you obviously have never fired warning shots before,
> 
> Why no, I haven't   I have, however had extensive use of a variety of firearms since the age of 10.




10? so you have handled firearms since 10 yrs of age and your telling me a better solution would have been to aim for the leg/shoulder?  ok your either lying about the experience you have with firearms or you play too many video games?

which one is it?


----------



## Aussiejeff (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Many people on this thread say the Kid deserved to die .... sounds like he was insane on ice or something .... (maybe even his first "hit" ? )
> 
> How do we feel about the Sydney top cop in the 120m Ice cartel(on previous page of this thread), does he deserve to die ?




Our Indon friends would say so....

Whereas of course, we here in Oz don't have any such thing as "the death penalty". Oh, unless you have a gun, a Vic Police uniform and the will to squeeze the trigger. Then we seem to have a defacto "death penalty" - by summary firing squad.

No-one has mad a single comment on my suggestion of using a vets tranquiliser gun. Must be too contentious.

What about stun grenades or flashbangs? 

Or high powered water pistols?

Even rubber bullets as suggested by someone is at least an alternative.


aj


----------



## prawn_86 (12 December 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Or high powered water pistols?




When we were kids my mate used to have the mother of all supa-soakers. That thing could stop a 10yo in its tracks and took about 3litres and 10 minutes to fill from the backyard tap


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> 10? so you have handled firearms since 10 yrs of age and your telling me a better solution would have been to aim for the leg/shoulder?  ok your either lying about the experience you have with firearms or you play too many video games?
> 
> which one is it?





Read the thread again.

Find where I said that or even implied that.

Then I'll accept your apology.

And yes, I have been handling firearms since I was 10.


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> No-one has mad a single comment on my suggestion of using a vets tranquiliser gun. Must be too contentious.
> 
> aj




I think bit difficult to use on human


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Happy said:


> I think bit difficult to use on human




How?

They use them on much more violent things than humans.


----------



## jonnycage (12 December 2008)

hindsight is a great thing.  i guess until your in that situation,
in that moment in time, its not your call.  there are no winners.


----------



## Aussiejeff (12 December 2008)

jonnycage said:


> hindsight is a great thing.  i guess until your in that situation,
> in that moment in time, its not your call.  there are no winners.




This kids death (and all the other recent deaths by police shootings) is totally meaningless unless it leads to a MUCH better system of control of "violent offenders".

The question is, how many more summary death sentences will be carried out by VIC Police until those freakin' useless a$$holes in Government get their shee-hite together? 

It's blatantly obvious to me that VIC Police don't have a satisfactory system or range of resources to deal with violent offenders. So, fix it NOW Brumby you wanker... preferably BEFORE you traipse off on your Merry Xmas leave.


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Heres a picture of young Tyler ......

Is he the big bad monster many of you predicted ?


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



sam76 said:


> Read the thread again.
> 
> Find where I said that or even implied that.
> 
> ...





Hey Ageo, LOL I guess I'll wait until you log back on again for that apology, hey mate.


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> View attachment 26238
> 
> 
> 
> ...




here's a nice one too.

(and no, I'm not comparing them)

it's all about circumstance, NC.

If Santa Claus came at me with two knives, i'd defend myself from him as well.


----------



## explod (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Yeah nice.
> 
> As someone that has been beaten up by police, I don't have much sympathy for them, nor do I believe anything they say when violence is involved from the police side.
> 
> ...





Could not agree more, had brothers treated the same way and in my career had to intervene a number of times.  The methods of entry and training have never addressed the sociological aspects properly.   Too much emphais on drill as you stand before me discipline and on leaving the shelter of training the detraining where you are soon told to forget all that sissy stuff (the bit you do get)

There was a good regime of change on under Mick Miller and Kel Glare but that baby boomer (out of the vietnam resistance regime) middle management was gutted in the Kennett era.  I left from sitting in front of a terminal all day in 1998 with the package.  Forced a heap of us out.


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Our Indon friends would say so....
> 
> Whereas of course, we here in Oz don't have any such thing as "the death penalty". Oh, unless you have a gun, a Vic Police uniform and the will to squeeze the trigger. Then we seem to have a defacto "death penalty" - by summary firing squad.
> 
> ...





Sorry AJ - I think its a fantastic Idea .... theres tons of alternatives, they coulda run him down with the Police car even ....

To us softies in Queensland shooting 15 year olds dead is just plain wrong ( even if they are victorians) - especially when they had opportunity to shoot him elsewhere, why 5+ shots ?

unbelievable ...


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

sam76 said:


> here's a nice one too.
> 
> (and no, I'm not comparing them)
> 
> ...





Id shoot Santa in the leg so the kiddies could enjoy him after he was rehabilitated ..... Im a thoughtful sorta Santa lover though ...

Youd shoot Santa 5x dead so they couldnt enjoy him ....

true or false ?


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Id shoot Santa in the leg so the kiddies could enjoy him after he was rehabilitated ..... Im a thoughtful sorta Santa lover though ...
> 
> Youd shoot Santa 5x dead so they couldnt enjoy him ....
> 
> true or false ?




Seriously mate, I'm not going to answer that in the way you want me to.

I'm hoping it's tounge in cheek 

My answer is;  I would defend myself.


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> They use them on much more violent things than humans.




Tranquiliser can be pulled out before dose is applied.
And since dose is calculated to approximate weight of target could be difficult to have-one-dart-fit-all. 
Then if pulled out you risk killing target if you apply another complete dose.
Time seems to be of essence too.
Then imagine trial by the media should eye be taken out or some kind of multi drug resistant bacteria injected.


Best is to teach to respect authority, irrespective of some individuals representing authority being corrupt, trigger happy or down right criminals in blue uniform, and this is different issue.


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Happy said:


> Then if pulled out you risk killing target if you apply another complete dose.
> Time seems to be of essence too.



Yes.

As opposed to firing guns, the risks are just far too extreme for us to accept. If only we had logic like yours, we might be able to become police officers.


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Happy said:


> Best is to teach to respect authority, irrespective of some individuals representing authority being corrupt, trigger happy or down right criminals in blue uniform, and this is different issue.



No. Best is to get authority to deserve respect.

Not be corrupt, violent incompetent morons like they time and time again prove to be.


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> As opposed to firing guns, the risks are just far too extreme for us to accept. If only we had logic like yours, we might be able to become police officers.




Well, it would be DEATH and AVOIDABLE and sure as day and night that somebody would lament about that too.


Why don't we concentrate on how to prevent incident happening in a first place? 
(And I am not talking about shooting but about angry young male with knives).


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> No. Best is to get authority to deserve respect.
> 
> Not be corrupt, violent incompetent morons like they time and time again prove to be.




Looks like another chicken and egg issue with dilemma who should do something first?


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Happy said:


> Looks like another chicken and egg issue with dilemma who should do something first?




As long as there are people, there will be crime.

I don't see any mass rebellion against authority like in the 60s. It's illegal in almost all it's forms anyway.

So the only variable is on one side...


----------



## Agentm (12 December 2008)

the kid tries to take knives from his own home and is disarmed by members of his own family, then takes off.

imho thats about the time any responsible parent would be calling the police and asking for help, but it seems they did not think that his behavior, the desire to arm oneself with weapons and walk out into the community was one they needed to act upon.

ok they have lost a child, but imho somewhere in the day earlier in the piece, the family itself could have forewarned the police of the situation and perhaps done more to help their child.

i think if the police has have had the chance to withdraw like they were, and one was not trapped, then they could have let the situation die down a little and get some support to contain situation.

my view is that the family themselves may one day reflect upon what they could have done to help this kid who was obviously distressed and very much had shown all the signs of wanting to harm either himself or others but remained silent..

thank christ no one was hurt earlier when he was threatening people in the car park and at the shopping centre,,  

again this is a tragic situation, but it seems to me much could be done and wasnt, and that left the very sorry ending of police trying to act upon the a very sad ending to what i believe to be a totally avoidable situation with only a little warning from the family..


----------



## cuttlefish (12 December 2008)

Another way to view this incident is to consider it an accident of sorts.

An unfortunate fact is that red blooded adolescent males frequently put  themselves in situations where they are at risk.  The majority come through these years relatively unscathed but many come to harm one way or another - either as a result of altercations with mates or strangers, through skylarking, through self harm and suicide, through incidents in motor vehicles etc. etc.    

This lad, with his personality type, had a high likelihood of putting himself in volatile and dangerous situations where he was at significant risk.   

Unfortunately in this case the result was tragic, but it still primarily occurred as a result of the situation that he created around himself.   

Had the police not been there he may have harmed himself, or may have been harmed by someone else trying to disarm him, or he may have caused serious harm to someone else.   

A tragic outcome was a high likelihood one way or another - police involvement or not.


----------



## cuttlefish (12 December 2008)

Agentm - didn't see your post before submitting mine - but I see we've touched on some of the same issues.  The situation wasn't simple and a bad outcome was always a high likelihood.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The Police in the article make a good job of justifying why they had too shoot this kid - BUT the bit ive never got is why they have to shoot them dead, why not the leg or shoulder ??!!
> 
> Three cops fired on this knife wielding teenager at once.
> 
> ...




no complaints here. he had plenty of warnings and he paid the price.

come on what do u expect if u push the officers to the final option. 

sad loss of a young life.


----------



## Agentm (12 December 2008)

you will always get the usual clots criticising the police, who have to face life and death situations in the course of their days. 

this is not a police brutality issue, or use of excessive force, this is mental health issue being ignored by the family, and instead of cat support which is immediately available, and police help with their resources, the family chose silence.

there were obvious deep trauma and emotional issues beyond the abilities of this young teenager to cope with. it ended up esculating to a trajic end.

there were 2 female and two male officers, dealing with a deeply disturbed teenager wanting to be harmed.  when it became evident that it was best to withdraw, it was too late.

he wasnt chased down and shot in a corner of a alley in a hail of bullets, he was about to harm an officer, leaving no choice but for weapons to be fired.

the family may point to the police, but imho a warning to the police, to cat teams and to the community was needed by family, it left the kid to his own devices, distressed, alone and in turmoil.

i have empathy for the family, i feel deeply for all officers and family members, but imho more should have been done to forewarn others and help this kid..


----------



## Lancelot (12 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



numbercruncher said:


> No sam I havnt ....
> 
> 
> And i doubt any of those Police officers have ever been *attacked* with with a knife ?
> ...




Great in the movies, I think in real life they shoot for the middle of the biggest mass

If they were great marksmen and wanted him dead they would have done a single headshot


----------



## Lancelot (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Yeah nice.
> 
> As someone that has been beaten up by police, .




Just walking down the road minding your own business?


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Lancelot said:


> Just walking down the road minding your own business?




Sitting on a footpath actually.


----------



## Ageo (12 December 2008)

lol Sam i apologize for my previous post as it was actually referring to Numbercruncher (when he said aiming for the leg/shoulder was better).

Now you can go back to eating your cake


----------



## Lancelot (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> View attachment 26238
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Heres another one


----------



## Lancelot (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Sitting on a footpath actually.




Doing nothing?

If so that is obviously wrong, but do you think this is how most cops are?

I was given a few floggings by cops when I was younger as well, they were allowed to do it a bit more often back then (Brisbane early 80's), teachers and parents were allowed to dish it up as well.

But, looking back did I deserve it?  More often than not, yes.

Reckon I'm a better bloke for it as well, I learned respect and to be careful about what I say and do.

Do cops scare me now? No, but I have a healthy enough respect for them to know not to push things if they tell me not to.


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

Lancelot said:


> Doing nothing?
> 
> If so that is obviously wrong, but do you think this is how most cops are?
> 
> ...



Nope, I did not.

My treating doctor was appalled.

And yes, having met other cops, I do indeed think they all work with a similar mindset. Absolute scum. There really isn't anything that separates them from the people they arrest.


----------



## disarray (12 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> And yes, having met other cops, I do indeed think they all work with a similar mindset. Absolute scum. There really isn't anything that separates them from the people they arrest.




lol feel victimised much? here's a tissue, now dry those tears from your eyes. hand some out to the rest of your mates at the next socialist alliance meeting.


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

disarray said:


> lol feel victimised much? here's a tissue, now dry those tears from your eyes. hand some out to the rest of your mates at the next socialist alliance meeting.



Never even been to a socialist alliance meeting, or had anything to do with them...


----------



## Aussiejeff (12 December 2008)

Oh dear. 

It appears the police are using what the youth said as some sort of "justification" for their rapid response.

As in, he said "Kill me. I'll kill you".

Ergo, they did as requested. Hmmm.


aj


----------



## sam76 (12 December 2008)

Ageo said:


> lol Sam i apologize for my previous post as it was actually referring to Numbercruncher (when he said aiming for the leg/shoulder was better).
> 
> Now you can go back to eating your cake





No worries champ!

 I'll keep a slice aside just in case you need it later on down the track


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 December 2008)

"Member of an anti-immigration cult" etc - it all sounds weird. 

But do I trust the cops? - no bludy way lol.   As if OC spray wouldn't have stopped him - he would not have been able to see anything (unless he was wearing goggles of some sort I guess).

Must be an independent inquiry surely. 

PS No way should they use this as an excuse for tasers. (Tasers have been or are being withdrawn from use in Canada for instance, in response to acknowledgement of health risk.  - as just heard on ABC 's PM).


----------



## IFocus (12 December 2008)

Vic police shoot someone dead, seems old habits die hard.

Unfortunately (for the deceased) police are trained to shoot at the chest area no ifs no buts its all about stopping the attacker and yes they generally end up dead.

This is all about if you have to shoot its you're last option before you to are killed so shoot the biggest target area don't miss. 

Now the problem of a dead 15 year old boy........a taser was surely the weapon of choice given the amount of officers present major cluster fu$k.


----------



## rhen (12 December 2008)

_Mr Cartwright said the police had acted consistently with their training and had not failed in their job.

"If we step through the events and the investigation we've conducted today, the members did everything they could to talk him down, they deployed OC (capsicum) spray, they backed off," he said.

"At the end of the day one of our member's lives was at risk and the three members saw fit to defend that member."

"This is not a police failure. It's a dreadful tragedy, it's a failure of the community that we get a young man in these circumstances where the ultimate outcome is he violently approached police and he's shot dead."_
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5208287/family-angry-vic-police-kill-boy/

Assistant Commissioner Tim Cartwright's defence: it's our (the community's)  fault.

_Criticisms centred around the fact that Victoria Police members were fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined [1]._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Police


----------



## awg (12 December 2008)

dont know the exact circs of this case

but it is quite likely that some of the police were female officers.

i dont want to generalise too much, but I have seen situations where, female police officers were of small stature, and very ineffective in situations were violence occurred.

I dont doubt their courage, only the intimadatory and actual power of a heavily built male policeman is much higher.

I believe police have a very difficult job to carry out.

I have had a few run ins and didnt like their attitude much, but once again, they are trained to be "assertive" 

If they are in a situation where they are highly likely to be stabbed, they will fire their weapons. That is what they are trained to do. I think most people would do that to!

the fact that multiple shots were fires indicates several officers discharged their firearms, indicating high probability that a knifing was imminent.

I would guess that "victim" had deliberately cornered a female officer.

I have worked with and known many serving and ex-police, and some definately are overly authoritarian, "the blue gang" is what I have heard them called.

I seriously doubt that any police person would shoot someone without the gravest provocation, apart from the dreadful consequences, the paperwork would be a nightmare.

my great-uncle ended his career as a superintendant, and shot several people fatally, including one very notorious crim


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 December 2008)

Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.

It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.


----------



## explod (12 December 2008)

awg said:


> dont know the exact circs of this case
> 
> but it is quite likely that some of the police were female officers.
> 
> i dont want to generalise too much, but I have seen situations where, female police officers were of small stature, and very ineffective in situations were violence occurred.




News tonight, four members were present of which at least two were female.  My Daughter is also in the job and she is very capable but I remember as a supervisor in really tight situations many of the girls were a problem.   I am no chauvenist, can assure you but in some things it is "Horses for courses


----------



## Happy (12 December 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.
> 
> It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.





knives


I noticed that have all and now generation is not able to handle well should something go not their way.

But not knowing what triggered this knives episode I should wait with comments.


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.
> 
> It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.





From the Victorian Children, Youth and Families Act 2005




> "child" means—
> 
> (a) in the case of a person who is alleged to
> have committed an offence, a person
> ...





He was a Child as definded by law, the title is correct.(we could change it to child from kid but same difference?)


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> He was a Child as definded by law, the title is correct.(we could change it to child from kid but same difference?)





So for coversation sake, because the persons death doesn`t affect me directly, you think someone should take a hit from the kid and then assess the situation further to see if it warrants taking action?

How would you subdue a knife wielding person ummm kid?


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> So for coversation sake, because the persons death doesn`t affect me directly, you think someone should take a hit from the kid and then assess the situation further to see if it warrants taking action?
> 
> How would you subdue a knife wielding person ummm kid?





No I think they should of shot the child in the leg instead of 5 to 7 times in the chest.

Even once in the torso probably would of stopped the child.

They had plenty of time the incident started on the road and moved into the park, they said they had time to administer cap spray and shoot a warning round, its not like he jumped out of a bush onto them.


Maybe they should just get hand grenades to lob from across the road so officers dont face danger ?

I wouldnt be so concerned if this was a 30 year old junkie violent career criminal but its a young kid who lost it for a minute ....

I just think the shoot to kill rule doesnt cut it - why dont they shoot and kill car thiefs doing 200kph down the highway, thats more dangerous than this guy ?

Maybe the Police should raise fines by 50pc so they can afford to deck all the crew out with tasers or something less lethal - ?


----------



## Panacea (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> No I think they should of shot the child in the leg instead of 5 to 7 times in the chest.
> 
> Even once in the torso probably would of stopped the child.
> 
> ...




There seems to be two separate issues here. What should the police have done in _this_ situation given the tools at their disposal; and how should police respond to these situations in general?

I agree that tasers (or some form of less-lethal response) should be available to police in situations like these, but given the circumstances that these officers found themselves in, I have no problem with what they did (based on the information at hand). 

If I was a police officer and I found myself in a situation where a person was charging me with a knife, I would discharge my weapon (gun or taser) toward the middle of that person. Simple.


----------



## nick2fish (12 December 2008)

For a home invasion in WA you have to use appropriate defense as to the level of threat. 
IE: if he has a stick then you can defend yourself with a stick , a knife then you can grab one as well. 
My point is you are woken from your slumber by someone in your house who probably is a street hardened thug but unarmed and you in your state of shock grab your boys cricket bat and bash him unconscious, you will do time for grievous bodily harm and he will be slapped on the wrist. 
If you had the bat and he a knife , thats OK I think. 
Bit like tic tat toe. Again my point is 4 guns vrs 2 knifes is a bit lopsided but those cops will walk. Why not just the one he supposedly attacked fire one shot instead of an all out barrage which obviously happened.

The sentencing punishment and laws in this country are mostly, outdated and absurd, and since they made it a requirement to be almost university educated and removed the height requirement,so are some of the officers enforcing them.


----------



## Panacea (12 December 2008)

nick2fish said:


> Again my point is 4 guns vrs 2 knifes is a bit lopsided but those cops will walk. Why not just the one he supposedly attacked fire one shot instead of an all out barrage which obviously happened.




It's not like the cops had time to talk amoungst themselves. "Should we waste this guy?... Yeah, why not." 

Most cops are average human beings, not Dirty Harry clones. And most cops would find themselves in situations like this maybe once in a life-time. This incident (the shooting) would have played out in a matter of seconds.


----------



## chops_a_must (12 December 2008)

nick2fish said:


> The sentencing punishment and laws in this country are mostly, outdated and absurd, and since they made it a requirement to be almost university educated and removed the height requirement,so are some of the officers enforcing them.



I didn't think you had to really have any quals, but they prefer uni grads... as they should!

A big part of the problem is that they don't seem to have enough outside experience before they become police.


----------



## numbercruncher (12 December 2008)

Seems a witness exists ...... 




> The family said police should have been better prepared.
> 
> "He was surrounded and gunned down by four officers firing at least 6-7 shots," the statement said.
> 
> ...




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=696409

We just wait for the inquiry I guess !


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Maybe the Police should raise fines by 50pc so they can afford to deck all the crew out with tasers or something less lethal - ?




Yes I do agree as many do that tasers would be effective.Is there only one chance/shot with tasers?

The rules of engagement between perpetrators of the law and the law enforcers are quite clear.People still test/defy/rebel against them daily.Stupid.


----------



## AAA (12 December 2008)

I am a Qld police officer. I  recently had my first training in the use of Tasers. One of the first things said was they should not be used against someone wielding a knife. One of the problems is the very limited range putting yourseld in grave danger of being stabbed. You would also only get one shot off.

If you were to shoot to wound in the leg or arm you seriously are not in fear of loss of life and therefore should not be shooting.

I think it is significant that all bar one of the police present fired. It would appear they recognised and reacted to the threat at the same time.

OC spray does not work on some people. I have seen people not effected in the slightest by it.

I am at a loss to what the police could have done differently. They had to contain the situation. They had to stay close enough to the boy to react to any threat to the public. They couldn't just withdraw from the area. They had to protect themselves.


----------



## xoa (12 December 2008)

All power to the police state!

The only good teenager is a dead teenager!


----------



## refined silver (12 December 2008)

Just read the story in the paper. Incredibly sad. A skinny angry 15 year old kid. 

Have to say, after reading the circumstances, can't for the live of me see how 4 police officers with guns need to shoot to kill a skinny angry kid with a knive.

After reading the whole thread, I understand that the police are trained to shoot for the main body mass, but in that case I think the training is absurd that the police don't have the discretion to shoot to disable rather than kill. 

Their training treats them like morons and obviously thinks they are too stupid to be allowed any discretion, and too inept after as much gun training as necessary to be able to hit a body part from 3-5 metres. (They were close enough to use spray!). Yes in certain circumstances, forward momentum must be stopped, yes in certain circumstances richochets can result, (but not firing downwards in an empty park) and yes the police need the discretion to be able to shoot to kill if they feel their lives are in danger. But four armed cops, close enough to use capsicum spray twice, I can't believe that 4 shots through the chest is the only option.


----------



## Panacea (12 December 2008)

AAA said:


> I am at a loss to what the police could have done differently. They had to contain the situation. They had to stay close enough to the boy to react to any threat to the public. They couldn't just withdraw from the area. They had to protect themselves.




Well said.


----------



## So_Cynical (12 December 2008)

No one seems to be interested in the fact that of the 4 cops there, only 3 
fired (8 rounds in total) seems that u can teach officers to fire at body mass 
ok but teaching good judgment is something else.

Crazy cos these same cops that can justify putting 8 rounds into a cranky 
kid will now be given carte blanche with Tasers.


----------



## chops_a_must (13 December 2008)

nick2fish said:


> I am at a loss to what the police could have done differently.




Not get backed into a corner for a start.

Pretty crap awareness.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

Found these posts on another forum.  Treat em as hearsay I guess, but sheesh - if he was 15m away from them !!  No wonder the OC spray didn't work lol. 

That's 3/4 of a cricket pitch for cryysake. 



> 8 metres is the minimum safe distance for someone advancing at you with a knife. Fair chance that even if you shoot them at that distance and they are running full tilt, they will still get a few wounds into you. Police are taught to shoot for the centre of the body mass. I doubt you'll find a Police Force in the world that isn't taught the same.






> The Assistant Commissioner believed *the officers were 13m to 15m away from the boy when the shooting occurred *and the 15-year-old shouted "kill me, I'm going to kill you’’



.


----------



## Schmuckie (13 December 2008)

This case is tragic for everyone, the boy who died, his family, and police officers who must live with this trauma for the rest of their lives.

Unfortunately, however, it's all too common and there are no clear answers.  One cannot weigh to a nicety what reaction is appropriate in a fast-moving and volatile situation.  It's easy to come to the conclusion that a gun and a knife are unequal weapons, but that isn't necessarily the case.  I've worked on numerous homicides cases involving knives, including one where the victim was a police officer who was killed in the line of duty here in Toronto.  

My own humble view, however, is that given a choice between the lives of a dangerous individual and a police officer or innocent bystanders, the life of the police officer or bystanders takes precedence.


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

and I wonder did he say "kill me, I'm going to kill you’’ after they sprayed him ?

Cause if it was after ofcourse he would be more angry, especially if they did some half pie job that hurt but didnt immobilise ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ONiZBbxABdw  Oc Spray Aftermath

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=LjbC2exJ8Qg Pepper Spray Experience and Tips
embedded:-
 Pepper Spray Experience and Tips

I guess if you're trained to resist it, then you can still operate to some extent.  But a 15 year old kid would surely be immobilised.


----------



## chops_a_must (13 December 2008)

If you _are actually_ temporarily psychotic, not much will stop you at all.

I've heard stories of people who were not athletic or sporty in any way, even women, who have been temporarily psychotic and no amount of people or anything could restrain or stop them.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



numbercruncher said:


> Yes Tech that really pretty gross not really needed ??



Reality is needed. 
The kid says he was going to kill people. Why sould others die if he shouldn't? Stop them while you can. Crime will stop if you deal with it.


----------



## nick2fish (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Reality is needed.
> The kid says he was going to kill people. Why sould others die if he shouldn't? Stop them while you can. Crime will stop if you deal with it.




Agree, yet we catch them, eventually sentence them and they are out in 3 years. (Cricket Bat Killer). Knifes are used to kill in 33% of homicide cases (2005-6) That kid if he happened to be pulled up and searched and a knife found = slap on the wrist (being 15 yrs old)

We are the mugs I feel for cause maybe one of us may have to defend family/friends from these armed crazed individuals with our bare hands.
A knife is a very effcient killing weapon, just ask some WW II diggers


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2008)

Well it made the news over here. Here's the UK take on it - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article5328921.ece

The article claims he was in some Neo-Nazi group.


----------



## Ageo (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



nick2fish said:


> We are the mugs I feel for cause maybe one of us may have to defend family/friends from these armed crazed individuals with our bare hands.
> A knife is a very effcient killing weapon, just ask some WW II diggers




Theres a simple answer to that, i always have a firearm near (of course with the proper storage etc..) so already im equally matched (if not better) and i hope i never have to use it. But my wife and 10 month old daughter are much more important than some scum breaking into my home.


As for the incident i like to know all the people that think the shooting is wrong what they would have done? its easy to sit behind your computer and blab your mouth away. What happens if an officer decided against his training and tried to spray capsicum up close but got stabbed? is it now the kids fault?

At least this will send a message to young people of today that your not so big (even when threatening police with a knife).


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> Theres a simple answer to that, i always have a firearm near (of course with the proper storage etc..) so already im equally matched (if not better) and i hope i never have to use it. But my wife and 10 month old daughter are much more important than some scum breaking into my home.




Every Italian family I know could easily supply the army of a medium sized African nation with the  guns from their spare room. What is it with that? LOL


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Reality is needed.
> The kid says he was going to kill people. Why sould others die if he shouldn't? Stop them while you can. Crime will stop if you deal with it.





Shoud have a picture of a dead kid full of bullets as well then for good measure ?? 


Dont know what it is with people in this day and age how they embrace depictions of violence but a good 50pc are offended by nudity, freaks.


----------



## explod (13 December 2008)

On my extensive experience in the social area it is all about parenting (there are some rare exceptions).  But if they are not nurtured well in the first few years and then with stable support during the learning period then there is always a problem.

And wait for another 12 years for when the baby bonus kicks in.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

explod said:


> ... wait for another 12 years for when the baby bonus kicks in.



explod, 
ahh - good point lol. 

Interesting that the pommie article of Waynes calls them a Neo-Nazi group, 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article5328921.ece
where the Aussie press are calling it  a "white pride" group lol :-

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/13/2445524.htm


> Tyler Cassidy's MySpace webpage lists him as a member of the white pride group, Southern Cross Soldiers.
> 
> Police say there is nothing to suggest drug use or a history of mental illness.




ok - So he wasn't mentally ill - other than the fact that he was a knife wielding rascist 



> Their only interaction with him in the past was over a minor assault.



Fair bet that the victim wasn't one of his "white pride" mates.  

PS his mates have vowed to "get even" . 

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2445379.htm


> A visit to the teenager's MySpace website reveals he was a member of an anti-immigration group called the Southern Cross Soldiers.
> 
> Friends have used the site to post tributes this afternoon, including one that reads: "I hope you cops can live with the fact that you've shot dead a 15-year-old boy. I hope that it haunts you the rest of ur lifes".
> 
> Another message says "we will keep SCS going in your name." One message threatens the police with revenge, saying "*we will get them back, revenge is sweet*."


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

I wonder if you belonged to say a Black pride group or even a purple pride group if you happened to be that colour, would you then be defined as neo-Nazi  ?


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2445382.htm



> *NSW ombudsman calls for caution on Tasers  *
> PM - Friday, 12 December , 2008  18:26:00
> Reporter: Alison Caldwell
> MARK COLVIN: *The Police Association in Victoria is calling for more Tasers to be issued to general duties officers as an alternative to firearms*.
> ...






> BRUCE BARBOUR: It certainly not conclusive and I'm not saying that they present a definite danger to people, but what the research does seem to *suggest is that certain people are at higher risk of having heart-related effects *following the use of a Taser.
> 
> And they are people such as
> *substance abusers,
> ...




*Excuse me madam - but before I shoot you with this taser - would you mind answering a few questions please !
Have you missed any periods lately? *

I prefer the NSW approach.  I truly respect the Ombudsman's office, and would take his word every time (pretty much).  


> NSW ombudsman calls for caution on Tasers


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> I wonder if you belonged to say a Black pride group or even a purple pride group if you happened to be that colour, would you then be defined as neo-Nazi  ?




Lol nc,  yep you have to wonder why they would eulogise this group don't you.


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

> Another message says "we will keep SCS going in your name." One message threatens the police with revenge, saying "we will get them back, revenge is sweet."




This is something that concerns me and can probably never be quantified, what grudges do associates hold and what crimes eventually get perpetrated as vengence ? How much damage is done to the Police force level of respect from community etc ?

At the end of the day the Police are structured in a paramilitary manner and its not the individuals choice they must follow the chain of command and shoot for the Torso - change has to happen at a management level.

Will the Police Officer that didnt shoot get into trouble ?


----------



## Ageo (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



wayneL said:


> Every Italian family I know could easily supply the army of a medium sized African nation with the  guns from their spare room. What is it with that? LOL




Hehe Wayne i dont have that many but i believe 1 is enough for home protection (as i said i hope i never have to use it). Obviously the others are for hunting/target shooting.

The old wogs just have plenty because they hate the birds eating there tomatoe plants in the backyard


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



Ageo said:


> The old wogs just have plenty because they hate the
> birds eating there tomatoe plants in the backyard



Maybe that explains that tomato I bought the other day that was full of buckshot.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> This is something that concerns me and can probably never be quantified, what grudges do associates hold and what crimes eventually get perpetrated as vengence ?




The sowers of revenge are never the ones that commit the revenge.They are cowards and always get someone immpressionable & easily manipulated to do their dirty work. Terrorist recruiters work this way.

For those people I hope they are shown the tree of enlightenment in the dark forest of bitterness.


----------



## Ageo (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



2020hindsight said:


> Maybe that explains that tomato I bought the other day that was full of buckshot.




buckshot?? they must have big birds down your way.


----------



## refined silver (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



nick2fish said:


> Agree, yet we catch them, eventually sentence them and they are out in 3 years. (Cricket Bat Killer). Knifes are used to kill in 33% of homicide cases (2005-6) That kid if he happened to be pulled up and searched and a knife found = slap on the wrist (being 15 yrs old)
> 
> We are the mugs I feel for cause maybe one of us may have to defend family/friends from these armed crazed individuals with our bare hands.
> A knife is a very effcient killing weapon, just ask some WW II diggers




Totally agree. 

I'm not against the death penalty, I agree most judges are way out of step with the community and sometimes give absurdly low sentences, if at all. I also think you should be able to protect yourself, your loved ones and your home with all force necessary. Its absolutely absurd that home invaders have sued the owners for harming them when they invaded. 

If this kid had been shot in any of these circumstances, to me there is no debate. But, this was 4 armed police, 15m from a skinny, angry, flipped out kid in a park. To me, their training should have treated them as more capable than it does, and given them the discretion to shoot to disable rather than kill if it was safe to do so. It also should have supplied them with more weapons/tools which could be used in a non-lethal way to contain the situation. 

Surely even shields and long batons in the hands of fully trained police officiers can disarm a skinny kid, especially if there is four of you.


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

> Surely even shields and long batons in the hands of fully trained police officiers can disarm a skinny kid, especially if there is four of you





Police should recruit Lassoo wielding Cowboys, thats a sure way to round em. up ...... cheaper than bullets (x7) too boot !


----------



## r34ztune (13 December 2008)

No offence to the mother, however she is now asking people to show restraint in commenting on the events leading up to the incident, however she herself has gone to the media, and made her own comments.
She is now pursuing murder charges against the officers WHAT THE 
Apparently the group he was in, is now posting revenge notes on myspace.
If anyone, I feel for the police who have to deal with this while trying to do their jobs.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=696655


----------



## chops_a_must (13 December 2008)

Mate. Why shouldn't she be allowed to come out in the media and defend herself? It was the anniversary of his dad's death ffs.

It seems that racist group he was a part of was just a bit of a beat up.

And from what seems to be coming out in dribs and drabs, continues to show the abject incompetence of the police.

This suicide by police thing I thought was sorted out 15 years ago. He rang them twice... he was never a threat to anyone but them.

Absolutely pathetic decision making it seems.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (13 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Mate. Why shouldn't she be allowed to come out in the media and defend herself? It was the anniversary of his dad's death ffs.
> 
> It seems that racist group he was a part of was just a bit of a beat up.
> 
> ...



No doubt Chops would have done better with a sour attitude hanging on his belt. 
Armchair critique bandits.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (13 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



numbercruncher said:


> Shoud have a picture of a dead kid full of bullets as well then for good measure ??
> Dont know what it is with people in this day and age how they embrace depictions of violence but a good 50pc are offended by nudity, freaks.




If needed for shock value. Perhaps there will be no incentive to be a radical amongst society. 
Love nudity and agree there should be places for it. 
I even like photos of cats running on treadmills.


----------



## Julia (13 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Mate. Why shouldn't she be allowed to come out in the media and defend herself? It was the anniversary of his dad's death ffs.
> 
> It seems that racist group he was a part of was just a bit of a beat up.
> 
> ...



Throughout this thread you've been contemptuous of everything the police did and of the police in general.

Let's have a hypothetical situation where you are the most senior officer amongst the four called to the current situation.   You are, apparently, faced with a violent kid, armed with two large knives, jumping about, yelling that he will kill you.  You don't know if he's psychotic, freaked out on ice, whatever.
He corners one of your female colleagues.  He fails to respond to your calls to drop the knives.  He is unresponsive to capsicum spray, indicating his psychosis or drug-induced state of mind is extreme.

What would you do, Chops?

Don't go on about what the police did wrong.  Just explain, exactly, what you would have done had it been your responsibility to contain the situation.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (13 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Throughout this thread you've been contemptuous of everything the police did and of the police in general.
> 
> Let's have a hypothetical situation where you are the most senior officer amongst the four called to the current situation.   You are, apparently, faced with a violent kid, armed with two large knives, jumping about, yelling that he will kill you.  You don't know if he's psychotic, freaked out on ice, whatever.
> He corners one of your female colleagues.  He fails to respond to your calls to drop the knives.  He is unresponsive to capsicum spray, indicating his psychosis or drug-induced state of mind is extreme.
> ...



Julia,

That one is easy.

Just uncouple the sour attitude from the belt and let it rip on the knife weilding bandit. Fixed no problem.


----------



## MrBurns (13 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Julia,
> 
> That one is easy.
> 
> Just uncouple the sour attitude from the belt and let it rip on the knife weilding bandit. Fixed no problem.




Non of us were there so it's impossible to know for sure but surely they could have shot him in the legs, he was carrying a knife not a gun or explosives.
Saw his  mother on TV, heartbreaking stuff.
I have every respect for the police (more when Nixon goes) but shooting to kill should be avoided if possible IMHO


----------



## chops_a_must (13 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Throughout this thread you've been contemptuous of everything the police did and of the police in general.
> 
> Let's have a hypothetical situation where you are the most senior officer amongst the four called to the current situation.   You are, apparently, faced with a violent kid, armed with two large knives, jumping about, yelling that he will kill you.  You don't know if he's psychotic, freaked out on ice, whatever.
> *He corners one of your female colleagues.*  He fails to respond to your calls to drop the knives.  He is unresponsive to capsicum spray, indicating his psychosis or drug-induced state of mind is extreme.
> ...



It may have been that there wasn't anything left they could do in that situation. Who knows? The fact that 3 of them shot, indicates that they were all largely on their weapons, which is what he wanted. Keeping hands away from their holsters in this situation may have been something that could have helped de-escalate the situation. Pepper spraying at less than 15m might have worked as well.  Getting the cornered officer to stay away from their gun whilst the others made the call could also have been an option.

But the bolded part is what concerns me. I'm not sure how you can separate that from their actions, because that changes what actions are available. I'm not sure how exactly you can be cornered in a skate park without doing something massively wrong.

It smacks of ****house teamwork and pathetic communication. Anyone that has played full back or spare man in defence in footy knows that you are reliant on others to tell you where to move, as you can't see behind you. It really isn't hard, and is something you would think they train for. I think I've even seen it in promo videos as they are walking backwards in standoffs...


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

Did he corner a Female officer now ?

Hell im even starting to wonder if he was also shooting lightning bolts from his eyes and fireballs from his ears ?


Facts I read in the media are Police followed him from road to skate park, shot off spray and warning shot/s - They had to be able to leg shot him in that time span @!

Look im sure the Poilce involved feel awful but the "system" they currently have needs looking into. I fully understand the Police are not aloud to legshot, and they have to follow orders, personal opinion doesnt enter the equation, which means id be disciplined if I was ever a cop in exactly the same situation.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

chops - I have a feeling that a few posters here trust everything the police do - unquestioned.


----------



## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> chops - I have a feeling that a few posters here trust everything the police do - unquestioned.





You can say that three times loudly !


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (13 December 2008)

Perhaps only perfect people should join the Police Force. They may get one cop doing everything for a state but I suspect there would not be many people trying to be recruited if the prerequisite quality was perfection.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

Lol - well in one case , I can tell you I'd simple like some honesty and integrity - and not to charge someone with assault when he was the assaulter - as later shown in court


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I'm not sure how exactly you can be cornered in a skate park without doing something massively wrong.
> 
> It smacks of ****house teamwork and pathetic communication. Anyone that has played full back or spare man in defence in footy knows that you are reliant on others to tell you where to move, as you can't see behind you. It really isn't hard, and is something you would think they train for. I think I've even seen it in promo videos as they are walking backwards in standoffs...




It's interesting that you compare this with a sport. Professional footballers and teams often get caught out of position or have stuffups due to poor communication. Look at the amount of training they do.

Now take the average general duties police officer. They would be lucky to do operational skills training 2-4 days a year. This training involves revision of a multitude of skills including control and restrain, weapon retention, searching, removing offenders from cars, oc spray ect. Nothing gets covered in real depth and there is not the repetitive practice that needs to be done to perfect these skills. Unlike a peacetime army police have a job to be done. This limits the time that can be allocated to training.

I think you underestimate the dynamic nature of these types of incidents. Police strategy in containment of them is developed on the run and it is no wonder there is not always a happy ending. I am guessing that at least half of the officers present had less then two years service and may not have experienced a similar incident.  I have experienced two such incidents in almost 20 years


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Did he corner a Female officer now ?
> 
> Hell im even starting to wonder if he was also shooting lightning bolts from his eyes and fireballs from his ears ?
> 
> ...




Think of the uproar there would have been if police had shot him in the leg whilst following him or whilst he was standing still. Police cannot use lethal force until they are in fear of death or GBH themselves. It then is too late for a precise shot to the leg.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

AAA said:


> It's interesting that you compare this with a sport. Professional footballers and teams often get caught out of position or have stuffups due to poor communication. Look at the amount of training they do.



It really is not hard to yell, "move left" or "move right" though. That is pretty basic stuff. The fact that they were women, probably means they are less likely to have had that thought process, or the experience in that style of communication.

And far from a containment, from witnesses, it does not seem that was high in their thinking. Sounds like they went at it like a bull at a gate, with very little composure given the background that should have been known to them after his calls to them.


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> And far from a containment, from witnesses, it does not seem that was high in their thinking. Sounds like they went at it like a bull at a gate, with very little composure given the background that should have been known to them after his calls to them.




Get real! As if police can let someone like that wander off whilst they have a meeting and work out the best way to contain the situation. They have to stick with him whilst trying to maintain a safe distance so they don't get stabbed. Someone who doesn't care if he is shot can basically control the situation because short of shooting him police can't stop him going in whatever direction he wants to.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

AAA said:


> Get real! As if police can let someone like that wander off whilst they have a meeting and work out the best way to contain the situation. They have to stick with whilst trying to maintain a safe distance so they don't get stabbed. Someone who wants to get shot can basically control the situation because short of shooting him police can't stop him going in whatever direction he wants.




Right... so they chase someone who is evidently only at risk to themselves or himself, yet want to maintain a safe distance?  Sounds like they wanted to be heroes and it backfired badly.

And it has nothing to do with directing _him_, it has everything to do with guiding the officer who was walking backwards into a corner.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Right... so they chase someone who is evidently only at risk to themselves or himself, yet want to maintain a safe distance?  Sounds like they wanted to be heroes and it backfired badly.



Maybe the _*perfect*_ cop would have done it right


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Maybe the _*perfect*_ cop would have done it right



A perfect cop would have closed a section of the road outside my house after a car wrapped itself around a lightpole. 

A competent cop would have sufficed.

Instead, the power lines were brought down by a fire truck.


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Right... so they chase someone who is evidently only at risk to themselves or himself, yet want to maintain a safe distance?  Sounds like they wanted to be heroes and it backfired badly.
> 
> And it has nothing to do with directing _him_, it has everything to do with guiding the officer who was walking backwards into a corner.




Do police know that there isn't anyone in the vicinity that this person may stab if they just let him wander off.

You appear absolutely clueless about how disorderly, stressful and dynamic these situations inevitably are. When placed in a stressful situation it is quite common for people to focus entirely on the threat to the extent that everything else is blocked out. There is a technical term for it but I can't remember and am too tired to be bothered to google. 

As another poster asked could you please outline how you would have dealt with the situation. Please detail distances you would have tried to keep from the offender. At what point would have you tried to shoot him in the leg.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

AAA said:


> As another poster asked could you please outline how you would have dealt with the situation. Please detail distances you would have tried to keep from the offender. At what point would have you tried to shoot him in the leg.



I've already answered that mate.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> A perfect cop would have closed a section of the road outside my house after a car wrapped itself around a lightpole.
> 
> A competent cop would have sufficed.
> 
> Instead, the power lines were brought down by a fire truck.




They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.



Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> It may have been that there wasn't anything left they could do in that situation. Who knows? The fact that 3 of them shot, indicates that they were all largely on their weapons, which is what he wanted. Keeping hands away from their holsters in this situation may have been something that could have helped de-escalate the situation. Pepper spraying at less than 15m might have worked as well.  Getting the cornered officer to stay away from their gun whilst the others made the call could also have been an option.




You are full of maybes here. Hey! If my life or my colleagues life is at risk I want more then maybe this is what we should do and maybe it will work.http://www.atlanticsignal.com/pages/tpoae.html

Have a read of this link. Have you had any of these experiences whilst playing football.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.



So you accept cops have some flaws then?


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> So you accept cops have some flaws then?




Of course.

I think the demographic attracted by the force have more than most.


----------



## AAA (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> The fact that 3 of them shot, indicates that they were all largely on their weapons, which is what he wanted. Keeping hands away from their holsters in this situation may have been something that could have helped de-escalate the situation.




I would think that in this situation police probably had their weapons drawn. In the half second it would take to unholster he could probably run 3 or 4 metres. 

I did this sort of training just a couple of days ago. It was rare for my colleagues and I to complete a senario for the first time without making some tactical mistakes. We are human. Add the stresses of a real life threatening incident it is not surprising that things go wrong.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Of course.
> 
> I think the demographic attracted by the force have more than most.



Just like all humans.


----------



## Nicks (14 December 2008)

THE KID WAS 57 KGS!!!!! 5'7!!!!

I cannot believe some adult cops with batons cant take him out, even with knives. 

So what if he had a shaved head. How many men do?

How many teenagers have difficult times? especially growing up without a father. 

This whole redneck right wing argument that he deserved to be shot, that our taxes pay for his bludging parents, etc etc is rubbish. A 15 yr old 57kg kid having a disturbed difficult time (thanks to our society no doubt) does not deserve to be shot. Period.


----------



## GumbyLearner (14 December 2008)

Its certainly a tragedy Nicks.

The fact that he was a troubled youth with no Dad around does
makes it even more of a tragedy.

If I was someone walking in the park and I was approached or threatened 
by someone possessing knives who said Im going kill you, regardless if they were 15 or 45.  

If I felt a real fear/apprehension of death or GBH to my person, I would do all I could to defend myself. 

Im not saying what happened is right. Im just saying it is difficult to know how to respond to this kind of scenario


----------



## GumbyLearner (14 December 2008)

I found this on the net.

Do you guys think that this tragedy is in anyway comparable 
to this episode?

http://winkandgun.blogspot.com/2007/04/michael-moore-gives-out-dayglo-orange.html


----------



## numbercruncher (14 December 2008)

Nicks said:


> THE KID WAS 57 KGS!!!!! 5'7!!!!
> 
> I cannot believe some adult cops with batons cant take him out, even with knives.
> 
> ...





I bet a trained and calm understanding voice could of taken this poor child out.

 I read 10 bullets were fired at this school boy- damn may as well issue Vic police with Uzi submachine guns ?? 10 bullets  ! is that a sick joke ? that isnt to immobilise thats to guarantee death, thats truly disturbing.

The whole leg shot argument about being dangerous is just bollocks considering how many rounds they got off.


----------



## GumbyLearner (14 December 2008)

I dont think it adds anything to hypotesize what could have happened!

This has happened. The question is why did it happen?


----------



## Ageo (14 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The whole leg shot argument about being dangerous is just bollocks considering how many rounds they got off.




NC: im trying to understand if your being dumb on purpose or thats just you?

how many times have we spoken about shooting in the leg? all these people that say (should have shot in the leg) have obviously never fired a pistol before. Now stop playing your video games or watching CSI because in the real world shooting under difficult circumstances is a different thing altogether.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.






chops_a_must said:


> Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.




Chops
I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...



> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2444450.htm
> Researchers from the University of NSW have found that people with frontotemporal dementia (FTD) ”” the second most common form of dementia in people under 65 ”” cannot detect sarcasm and are more gullible than other people.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must]
I think the demographic attracted by the force have more than most.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Just like all humans.




Snake - if all human (groups) had more than most (in their group), then statistically and mathematically it doesn't add up.

:topic 



> Did you know that the great majority of people have more than the average number of legs?
> 
> It's obvious, really: Among the nominal 20 million people in Aus, there are probably 2,000 people who have only one leg. Therefore, the average number of legs is
> 
> ...




PS It's arguably relevant I guess. 
this kid could be just the 2001st Aussie with one leg ..
instead of being a corpse with a dozen bullets (half dozen whatever) in his tiny chest.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

:topic


> Did you hear about the politician who promised that if he were elected he'd make certain that everybody would get an above-average income?


----------



## nick2fish (14 December 2008)

*Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!*



refined silver said:


> Surely even shields and long batons in the hands of fully trained police officers can disarm a skinny kid, especially if there is four of you.




Exactly 
You know the same thing happened at Bondi Beach, 1997 (or 1998) I think. Mentally crazed ,man this time, with knife, surrounded by police and shot dead in "self defense" When I did my security training back then it was used as a case example of all the wrong things to do. One of the more contributing factors was the fact that all officers were pointing the gun at the same time and if you aim a gun long enough the trigger will be pulled when the stress level builds to the red. 
The stress level was exaggerated within the group focus on the one course of action.


http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s48571.htm


----------



## Julia (14 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> chops - I have a feeling that a few posters here trust everything the police do - unquestioned.




Or maybe some people, not having been there, simply reserve judgement and await the result of coroner's report.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/13/2445656.htm



> Liberty Victoria statistics show 42 people were shot dead by an officer between 1987 and 2005; more than double that of New South Wales in the same period




Vic twice as many shootings (dead)  as NSW.  (despite a smaller population , 75% of NSW -  ok Melb 88% of Sydney's population) 
The other states were in the single figures.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Or maybe some people, not having been there, simply reserve judgement and await the result of coroner's report.




exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect. 

btw, you're aware aren't you that there are calls for an independent enquiry into the police actions, -  but sure enough it will be done by police. 

Hopefully it's better than Hong Kong 
I was involved in a Coroner's enquiry there, over an industrial accident.
The guilty party bribed "someone" and didn't have to appear.
But... I spent 2 hours in the witness box being questioned by the guilty party's lawyer.


----------



## tigerboi (14 December 2008)

Nicks said:


> THE KID WAS 57 KGS!!!!! 5'7!!!!
> 
> I cannot believe some adult cops with batons cant take him out, even with knives.
> 
> ...




for me this post says it all...way way over the top,kid was more scared than the coppers...tb


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect.
> 
> btw, you're aware aren't you that there are calls for an independent enquiry into the police actions, -  but sure enough it will be done by police.



Haha... I love these.

You can see the finding now, "Nothing to see here, move along. Our cops did nothing wrong. Extra resources, blah blah blah."

It's almost always an admission of guilt in itself.


----------



## nunthewiser (14 December 2008)

I think this is a prime example that oz needs judge dredd guarding our streets , he woulda sorted the situation with a quick smack in the ear with his telescopic truncheon 


personally think the police made the wrong desicion and shoulda zapped him with a tazar or at least attempted the ole baton in the chops trick first , after all there was a few of them .

but hey i wasnt there so very easy to say "should of done this and that " from the comfort of my vibrating bed


----------



## Boggo (14 December 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> personally think the police made the wrong desicion and shoulda zapped him with a tazar or at least attempted the ole baton in the chops trick first , after all there was a few of them.




I would be surprised if anyone would disagree with that, might have been different if it was a one on one situation.
Pretty poor effort.

Having said that though, the general impression seems to still be that we should just throw more money and resources at these members of minority groups to change their ways.

Interesting article in the Weekend Australian, and an interesting piccy of his rocket scientist mates, NASA would love to snap those guys up and take them off our welfare system


----------



## JTLP (14 December 2008)

Let's break some things down here:

1. A man that can run the 100m sprint in 10 seconds can do 10 m/s. Agreed?
Someone who can run it in 15 seconds can do it in roughly 7 m/s. So 15 metres is basically 2 seconds of thinking in the eyes of these officers? 

2. The officers aren't going to sit and have a chat about the situation (see point 1 about time). They have to respond how they see best for the situation at hand (family member in police force outlined this for me)

3. Can you imagine how hard it would be to shoot someone in the legs or arms in a 2 second time span? Imagine missing? (the kid was skinny wasn't he ). Well there goes 1 officer who wasn't trained in sniper styles... 

Chops, you are so highly critical of police it's ridiculous. It's a very sad/confronting situation for the family, the officers and society...but you have to realise that Australia has a damn safe society and as sad as it is I would rather 1 shooting every 5 years then some of the stuff I have seen whilst overseas...Actually scrap that in a perfect world no shootings (of course) but the death of a minor is, as I said earlier, a drop in the ocean to the things I have seen minors do and been involved in overseas.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

JTLP said:


> Let's break some things down here:
> 
> 1. A man that can run the 100m sprint in 10 seconds can do 10 m/s. Agreed?
> Someone who can run it in 15 seconds can do it in roughly 7 m/s. So 15 metres is basically 2 seconds of thinking in the eyes of these officers?



Nope. Not agreed.

Most people would be lucky to run 20m in under 3 seconds. Most certainly couldn't.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Chops
> I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...



Hilarious 20-20!


> They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.



My attempt at petty humouristic sarcasm.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by chops_a_must
> Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.



With a nice response from chops aren't a must.


> Chops
> I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...



Really?


> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2444450.htm
> Researchers from the University of NSW have found that people with frontotemporal dementia (FTD) — the second most common form of dementia in people under 65 — *cannot detect sarcasm* and are more gullible than other people.



So are you saying he  has dementia? I was the one using sarcasm and it wasn't detected.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Snake - if all human (groups) had more than most (in their group), then statistically and mathematically it doesn't add up.
> Quite true.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (14 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Don't go on about what the police did wrong.  Just explain, exactly, what you would have done had it been your responsibility to contain the situation.






chops_a_must said:


> It may have been that there wasn't anything left they could do in that situation. Who knows? The fact that 3 of them shot, indicates that they were all largely on their weapons, which is what he wanted. Keeping hands away from their holsters in this situation may have been something that could have helped de-escalate the situation. Pepper spraying at less than 15m might have worked as well.  Getting the cornered officer to stay away from their gun whilst the others made the call could also have been an option.




I asked you exactly how you would have contained the situation, given your absolute criticism of police actions (not sure how you even know exactly what these were.)   In answer you say:

"May have been"
"May have"
"Could have been an option"

Doesn't sound like a plan to me.  And you've had a couple of days to think about it!!

The point is that none of us know how the situation unfolded and, as others have pointed out, it was a dynamic, very stress inducing scene in which the police hardly were in a position to stop for a strategic discussion.

I guess you'd have felt better had a police officer been fatally injured by a knife.


----------



## Julia (14 December 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Haha... I love these.
> 
> You can see the finding now, "Nothing to see here, move along. Our cops did nothing wrong. Extra resources, blah blah blah."
> 
> It's almost always an admission of guilt in itself.



So a coronial enquiry will not be objective?
Coroners are also corrupt in your view?


----------



## Julia (14 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect.



Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.

Nowhere have I suggested any police were/are perfect.
Nowhere have I endorsed the actions of any police.
Nowhere have I criticised the actions of any police.

Why?  Because I wasn't there and am therefore not in a position to pass any opinion.

I just get pretty tired of the constantly derisive and critical judgements of some ASF members who seem to be for ever promoting their own personal agenda instead of employing any level of objectivity.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 December 2008)

Julia said:


> So a coronial enquiry will not be objective?
> Coroners are also corrupt in your view?




Once again if the pre-requisite was for a coroner to be perfect then there would be no coroners. 

If universities relied on perfect university kids then they would go broke.  

It seems Julia we are two of the few who realise how difficult a cops job would be.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

I'll express it differently then Julia.
Vic police have a systemic problem. 

Twice the next worse state in terms of fatal shootings (NSW).

They never accept a Royal Commission - they will be checked by their in-house "Homicide and Ethical Standards departments".



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/14/2445974.htm?section=justin
> He told reporters the shooting was being investigated by the homicide and Ethical Standards departments.




Meanwhile it seems reasonable to assume there's some truth in the suggestion that the policy down there is "shoot first, ask questions later". 

A Coroner's Court would have even less teeth.  Internal inquiries have whitewashed previous shootings.  I'm guessing that only an open Royal Commission would get to the truth (imo).



Julia said:


> Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.



lol - your turn to do the next sudoku puzzle Julia 

PS Thank god the press are a bit more inquisitive that you are Julia.   - otherwise the next kid they shoot will be a ten year old blind kid at 30 metres instead of 15.  (before taking that literally - check the possibility it might be a dementia test)


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

Furthermore, in NSW we have an Ombudsman prepared to say he disagrees with tasers - arguably inferring he doesn't trust the police to use the necessary restraint. 

I just hope his opinion holds the day. 

Some around here are far more likely to side with the Police than the Ombudsman on that (or any other) score , granted - but I'm not one of em.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.



I just realise that's probably a personal insult! - 
gee whiz Julia lol.

Tell you what.  I'll have a sixpack of beers, and after that I'll give you a race to do a Rubik's Cube.   If you beat me (and you'll have to do better than about 3 mins), then I'll agree with you (and wait for the coroner's report) 
Mind you, I'll reserve the right to ask further questions and point out any doubts etc if that report has loopholes.


----------



## gilbo (14 December 2008)

As Julia says we weren't there so it is difficult for any of us to draw any real conclusions, however...if I was walking home one night and was accosted by an "agitated" person armed with 2 knives I'd be bloody glad there were armed police behind me.

And, if he wouldn't put the weapons down when asked on a number of occasions (apparently) then there should be no surprise he was bloody shot then, eh?


----------



## chops_a_must (14 December 2008)

Julia said:


> I asked you exactly how you would have contained the situation,



No you did not.

You asked what I would have done at that point of being cornered, regardless of anything gone before.

Like I said, you can't separate them.



Julia said:


> In answer you say:
> 
> "May have been"
> "May have"
> ...




Like I said Julia, and again, there were clearly mistakes made before the situation got to where it may have been the only option.

ALLOWING oneself to GET CORNERED, is obviously the biggest one, and any examination without looking at that is pointless. And my point still stands, allowing oneself to be cornered altered the available outcomes dramatically, and that should not have occurred and is more important to consider before we even look at the eventual outcomes and decisions.


----------



## Largesse (14 December 2008)

you can teach a 5year old to do a rubik's cube in under 3 mins.....

hardly a measure of logic, reasoning or intellect. just simple pattern recognition.



oh and to keep on topic, the kid had it coming. Darwinism.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

Largesse said:


> 1. you can teach a 5year old to do a rubik's cube in under 3 mins ...  hardly a measure of logic, reasoning or intellect. just simple pattern recognition.
> 
> 2. ... the kid had it coming. Darwinism.




1. mmm - ok - would have thought reasoning was required - Proof? -  if you have a slab of beer it gets quite tricky.

2. Not sure how you work Darwin into this one Largesse lol. 



chops_a_must said:


> 3. ALLOWING oneself to GET CORNERED, is obviously the biggest one, and any examination without looking at that is pointless.




3. chops, I'm sure Largesse would agree that "Getting cornered" is "simple pattern recognition".  

It's all geometry chops ... And without geometry, life would be pointless.


----------



## MrBurns (14 December 2008)

Largesse said:


> .....
> oh and to keep on topic, the kid had it coming. Darwinism.




What a prick of a thing to say


----------



## Largesse (14 December 2008)

sorry, just dont have much sympathy for maniacs running round with butchers knifes threating to kill people


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 December 2008)

Largesse said:


> sorry, just dont have much sympathy for maniacs running round with butchers knifes threating to kill people



You realise it was the anniversary of his father's death ? -  died of cancer a year or two back ?

Not saying that excuses threats - but they're only words until he does something threatening - tends towards the theory he was more of a "agitated / frightened kid" rather than a "Mike Tyson on meth" surely.

It will probably turn out he only threatened to kill himself. 

Have you never heard of police verballing someone - especially if they aren't around to deny it 

I can tell you I've read police statements where they say the same :bs:  about "killing you" etc.  Absolute :bs: on that occasion (and the judge / prosecution finally agreed)


----------



## classer (14 December 2008)

Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat


A police officer has been injured during the arrest of a women wielding knives on the New South Wales mid north coast last night.

The woman allegedly rang police from outside the Forster police station at 11.30pm (AEST) and told them she was there and armed with knives.

The 55-year-old allegedly threatened self harm with two 30cm knives before turning on police.

Officers say they tried to subdue her with capsicum spray without success and then hit her with a baton but she struck out, cutting an officer's head.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 December 2008)

classer said:


> Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat
> 
> 
> A police officer has been injured during the arrest of a women wielding knives on the New South Wales mid north coast last night.
> ...





And this is why Vic Police have double the kill rate of NSW - Vic police would of unloaded on that Woman - they must have different training.

Also sounds like that Woman was suicidal - perhaps Tylers incident sparked her actions ?

I think Tyler would be alive had he had the good fortune of being a NSW lad.


----------



## MrBurns (14 December 2008)

classer said:


> Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat
> Officers say they tried to subdue her with capsicum spray without success and then hit her with a baton but she struck out, cutting an officer's head.




They need a stronger spray ie tear gas or tasers to deal with those under drugs. If NSW is anything like Victoria the police are expectred to perform miracles with antiquated equipment and no funds.


----------



## cuttlefish (15 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> -perhaps Tylers incident sparked her actions ?





Very likely I suspect.

Seems to me the police got it wrong on this occasion in that this kid wasn't likely to be doing them harm - but at the same time police deal with all sorts of nutters and I've seen serious harm inflicted by completely unarmed teenagers.   The real failure is that the mother (or tyler) didn't feel they had a trusted counsellor or someone more equipped to deal with the situation to call.   

Then again ... he left the house with two knives ... its not impossible his mother or a friend would have been the victim instead.   (and there are plenty of incidents of someone being assaulted and killed where police are criticised for not acting on earlier complaints).

There aren't easy choices but it does seem to me that not much has changed in the way the Vic police force is dealing with these incidents.  I don't think you can blame the individual police officers concerned  -  but it doesn't look like there's adequate or appropriate training in how to deal with these situations.


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## chops_a_must (15 December 2008)

A death in the park,
A death in the dark.
All I want is empathy from you.


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## xyzedarteerf (15 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> And this is why Vic Police have double the kill rate of NSW - Vic police would of unloaded on that Woman - they must have different training.
> 
> I think Tyler would be alive had he had the good fortune of being a NSW lad.




being an ex Sydneysider it was a well known fact that Vic cops have the reputation of having the shot first and ask later approach in crime.


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## disarray (15 December 2008)

all this armchair quarterback "omg incompetent cops" what-if-ism is pathetic. the police aren't social workers, psychologists or therapists, they are enforcers of the law. someone with a knife standing 15m away from you has the potential to kill you or someone else in seconds, and that someone is even more dangerous and quite probably harder to take down when hyped up on drugs. you can imagine the outcry these same posters would raise if the cops DIDN'T put bullets into the kid and he ran off and sliced up an innocent bystander instead.

"just shoot him in the leg" - are you for real???? sometimes i wonder what planet some of you people live on. i'll make it simple for you - you can't just "shoot him in the leg". adrenaline courses, people shake, split second judgements need to made on scant info which result in life and death. trying for delicate fine motor skill actions at times like this is just stupid, and then we expect people to start agonising over morals in crisis situations? grow up.

i know its cool and all to disrepect authority and criticise everything the police do, because we're all so enlightened and understand everyone is a precious snowflake who might have had a harsh upbringing, but i'll bet many of you slagging off the police will be the first to mouth a silent "thank god" when a police officer, who is a complete stranger to you, comes up and risks his or her life to save your ass from some other poor misguided snowflake who is trying to do you over or harm your family.

so how about you give the moral crusade a rest and maybe consider the fact cops spend day after day after day dealing with scumbags and irrational cretins, constrained by all sorts of procedures which often defy common sense, under constant scrutiny by the public, the media and the bureaucracy, and all for relatively crappy pay and rewarded for their efforts by regular abuse from the oh so oppressed public. 

or you can just keep casting your ever so talented and righteous eye over the situation and tell us how awesome you would have handled it if you were there. because life and death crisis situations are just like a game of football right?


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## anthon (15 December 2008)

I believe the police have acted very reasonably given the circumstances.

We live in one of the most amazing countries in the world, and a fairly safe environment. There are reasons for this.

Although it is a tradegy that the boy was so young, he has acted in a way that put the public at risk and the police officers at the scene. Police have a duty to protect the public, themselves and other officers, with out the powers to use such action/force in appropriate situations there would be the potential for greater injuries/deaths from such incidences (ie what if he had stabbed a bystander...).

I think it is unimportant in this case that he was young - he had still put himself in a position that could endanger others - and this therefore police needed to act to curb the danger.

I agree with the policy of shoot for the central mass. Firstly, it eliminates the risk of missing and having the subject on you/others inflicting damage. Secondly, it eliminates the risk of others being hurt int he cross fire. Lastly and most importantly, it provides a Rule for the officers to follow. There has been a lot of talk on this forum about providing the police with the power of discretion, however giving them this power is going to cause a huge grey area (and given the public response to this), although there is going to be a difference in opinions in difference situations between police - the difference between the public opinion (who is not on the front line standing in front of those carrying knives adn guns) and the police (who are having to defend the public and their lives everyday) is going to be huge.

I wonder how the newspaper headlines would have read if the boy had stabbed/killed one of the officers who had had maybe a wife/husband and some young children before dying. Remember the newspapers are there to report the news not the truth.

As has been pointed out, those who think the police should have acted differently - you being in that situation, after exhausting all your warning options - have very few options to turn to when there is a realy chance of bodily harm in such situations. The police need the power to administer the law.

I know there have been instances where the police have gone to far - but you have to remember, from my knowledge - those on the receiving end have already acted outside the bounds of the law to get in that positions.

As for tasers and other safety options, i am no expert - i dont know how practical these are for such a situation, but i understand there is value in looking into other options.


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## Surly (15 December 2008)

What does weapons training for the average beat cop in Vic consist of? An ex cop friend was saying in WA it was 6 shots per year of "weapons training".

From the posts here it would appear not all of the bullets fired at the teenagers torso actually hit him yet people are suggesting they should of shot his legs!

cheers
Surly


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## MrBurns (15 December 2008)

Was he moving toward anyone ?
Was he trying to injure someone ?
Or 
Did the police move in on HIM demand he drop the knives then kill him.


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## Uncle Barry (15 December 2008)

Good afternoon all.
I've read all the posts before me,

now can we go back and rewrite the posts, 
with the view, it was your son the 3 police filled with 5 or 6 bullets.

The answers will be interesting.

And a question or two to the police officers out there,

Why were so many rounds fired to the target ?

Why did 3 police all have to discharge their hand guns at once?

And how could everybody ALL have discharged their hand guns, and some a number of times at once, at the same time ?

After the first chest shot or lower the target would have been no treat to anyone.

Kind regards,
UB


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## Surly (15 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good afternoon all.
> I've read all the posts before me,
> 
> now can we go back and rewrite the posts,
> ...




Barry in todays society the answer would be to blame the police. Although, if it were my son I think I would be asking myself how I failed so miserably as a father. Why my son had no respect for authority and was filled with what can only be described as suicidal rage. Why he failed to realise that life is not a video game where you simply reload from the last save and carry on.

A fairly logical repsonse to why all the officers fired at once is they all believed the threat had reached a point of no return at the same time. If they were trained to fire multiple times at the persons torso then they have all acted in accordance with their training.

What would be truly tragic is to be the parent of someone this teenager killed had the police not responded and be asking why he was allowed to terrorise the streets armed with knives and the police did nothing. Or to be the parent of a police officer stabbed and killed while trying to subdue this same teen in a less forceful manner.

cheers
Surly


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## chops_a_must (15 December 2008)

disarray said:


> all this armchair quarterback "omg incompetent cops" what-if-ism is pathetic. the police aren't social workers, psychologists or therapists, they are enforcers of the law. someone with a knife standing 15m away from you has the potential to kill you or someone else in seconds, and that someone is even more dangerous and quite probably harder to take down when hyped up on drugs. you can imagine the outcry these same posters would raise if the cops DIDN'T put bullets into the kid and he ran off and sliced up an innocent bystander instead.



"Yes, excuse me, please stay still while I put a fork in you and try and take a piece of you with my crappy Target steak knives."


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## MrBurns (15 December 2008)

Surly said:


> Barry in todays society the answer would be to blame the police. Although, if it were my son I think I would be asking myself how I failed so miserably as a father. Why my son had no respect for authority and was filled with what can only be described as suicidal rage. Why he failed to realise that life is not a video game where you simply reload from the last save and carry on.
> 
> A fairly logical repsonse to why all the officers fired at once is they all believed the threat had reached a point of no return at the same time. If they were trained to fire multiple times at the persons torso then they have all acted in accordance with their training.
> 
> ...




You make alot of assumptons there, are they based on any sort of fact or knowledge of the kid or his family or police training or do you just write cheap fiction.


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## Prospector (15 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good afternoon all.
> I've read all the posts before me,
> 
> now can we go back and rewrite the posts,
> ...




Yes. That thought came to me too. 15 year olds can do some crazy crazy things. Everyone in this tragedy lost. (for those who didn't read all this thread I used to be a police officer) Why so many shots?  Because 3cops reacted instantaneously to the same threat. Why were the legs hit?  Because their aim was not good. It actually helps the police to justify what happened if three trained people reacted in the same way


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## Surly (15 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> You make alot of assumptons there, are they based on any sort of fact or knowledge of the kid or his family or police training or do you just write cheap fiction.




MrBurns not sure that I agree with "a lot of assumptions". I "assumed" the police all fired together as they all read the situation in the same manner. Yes I have had police training in WA explained to me by a former WA police officer. The assumption was Vic was the same. Refer earlier post if you like.

The rest of the post was about how I would feel were it my child.

Do I need to know any more about the teenager or his family other than he was armed in public and failed to comply with police instructions to disarm himself?

cheers
Surly


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## 2020hindsight (15 December 2008)

This kid's problems started when he listened to the sort of racist stuff that occasionally gets onto forums like this. 

And then ended up in a "Neo Nazi" movement -  euphemistically called  "White Pride" and "Anti-immigration" out of consideration for his parents' emotional plight I guess.  

PS But too young to be a serious threat to 4 police surely (and end up looking like a colander).


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## MrBurns (15 December 2008)

Surly said:


> MrBurns not sure that I agree with "a lot of assumptions". I "assumed" the police all fired together as they all read the situation in the same manner. Yes I have had police training in WA explained to me by a former WA police officer. The assumption was Vic was the same. Refer earlier post if you like.
> 
> The rest of the post was about how I would feel were it my child.
> 
> ...







> "Although, if it were my son I think I would be asking myself how I failed so miserably as a father.




His father is dead, it was the anniversary of his death.



> Why my son had no respect for authority and was filled with what can only be described as suicidal rage.




How do you know if he had no respect for authority, these were exceptional personal circumstances.



> Why he failed to realise that life is not a video game where you simply reload from the last save and carry on.




Unesesary flowery bull****



> A fairly logical repsonse to why all the officers fired at once is they all believed the threat had reached a point of no return at the same time. If they were trained to fire multiple times at the persons torso then they have all acted in accordance with their training.




You're making this up you have no idea of Victorian police training, you write fiction.



> What would be truly tragic is to be the parent of someone this teenager killed had the police not responded




AsI understand it he was no where near anyone else when this happened.


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## Surly (15 December 2008)

Surly said:


> .
> 
> Do I need to know any more about the teenager or his family other than he was armed in public and failed to comply with police instructions to disarm himself?




Mrburns, interestingly the only point you failed to quote on and the only one that really matters.

cheers
Surly


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## chops_a_must (15 December 2008)

Surly said:


> MrBurns not sure that I agree with "a lot of assumptions". I "assumed" the police all fired together as they all read the situation in the same manner. Yes I have had police training in WA explained to me by a former WA police officer. The assumption was Vic was the same. Refer earlier post if you like.



People are like horses, they react to to each other as much as they react to the situation that caused the initial reaction. That's how we survive.

It may not be that they reacted to the threat as much as they reacted to the other officer's perceived threat. Would not be surprised if the officer shot, with the other's shooting significantly later.


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## MrBurns (15 December 2008)

Surly said:


> Mrburns, interestingly the only point you failed to quote on and the only one that really matters.
> 
> cheers
> Surly




You over simplify the whole thing, armed with knives not an AK47, 15 years old, didnt comply with the order to drop the knives but wasnt endangering anyone at the time as far as I know, so they killed him surley they KILLED him I'm sure if he were your relative you'd be a little disappointed at those reasons for ending his life.


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## nick2fish (15 December 2008)

One double knife wielding KID (big) vrs Four BURLY police officers armed with the latest telescopic baton. My moneys on the police..... Unless... Oh thats right they are not burly anymore just 5ft 3" wanna be accountants or vets who couldn't be bothered to go to uni for five years.

My thoughts are with the kids family right now and another senseless waste of life


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## MrBurns (15 December 2008)

nick2fish said:


> One double knife wielding KID (big) vrs Four BURLY police officers armed with the latest telescopic baton. My moneys on the police..... Unless... Oh thats right they are not burly anymore just 5ft 3" wanna be accountants or vets who couldn't be bothered to go to uni for five years.
> 
> My thoughts are with the kids family right now and another senseless waste of life




Christine Nixon's fault she dumbed the whole force down so they're more social workers than anything else.

In the old days if you called a cop a cop or a pig you'd get a fat lip and spend the night in the clink now days they just smile.


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## numbercruncher (16 December 2008)

This new article flys in the face of the firearms "experts" in this thread that reckon Police with pistols cant shoot legs !!

I even recall someone suggesting I stick to Playstations etc for even suggesting it ? 

Apologies along with von harvey norman vouchers can be PMed to me , thanks. 



> One of the three police officers who shot and killed a teenage boy reportedly tried to shoot his legs as he advanced on them, allegedly wielding two stolen knives.







> Tyler lured police to the scene with two hoax calls reporting an emergency near the scene where he died, The Age said.







> When Tyler continued to advance, three of the four police involved in the shooting fired at his body until he fell.
> 
> Tyler died at the scene.
> 
> The report said Tyler was hit twice in the legs and twice in the chest and several other shots missed him.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=697364


Boy oh boy ! 2 shots in the leg and he didnt go down - Im now eager to see the toxiology report thats pretty bizarre. OR did police shoot legs and chest simultainously, was there a lack of communication ?


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

> Boy oh boy ! 2 shots in the leg and he didnt go down - Im now eager to see the toxiology report thats pretty bizarre. OR did police shoot legs and chest simultainously, was there a lack of communication ?




Sounds to me like they were just shooting to hit him no matter where, no one advances with bullets in their legs.
Maybe if they were trained to shoot properly and had modern weapons legs would have been easier to hit.
You know they didnt have to wait for him to advance they could have given him one or 2 in the legs if they felt threatened.
At least he would be alive.

Police equipment is a disgrace, as it seems is their training,thanks John Brumby and Christine Nixon what a pair of incompetents.


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## 2020hindsight (16 December 2008)

I don't have a problem with Nixon.
She had entrenched corruption to deal with - at one point, right up to the man who would be the next king 

PS the "leaking" of the "safe-house" (sic) location of witnesses for imminent court cases against crime syndicates (whose members included police) so that they could be murdered.


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## Ageo (16 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Maybe if they were trained to shoot properly and had modern weapons legs would have been easier to hit.
> You know they didnt have to wait for him to advance they could have given him one or 2 in the legs if they felt threatened.
> At least he would be alive.




Burns normally i respect your opinions but answer me this what "modern weapon" (im assuming you mean firearm?) are you referring to? people still dont get it and think shooting a firearm is like doom where you point it with a mouse and click to shoot? mate you have to start being realistic.

Ask any professional pistol shooter about your theory and see what they say.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

Ageo said:


> Burns normally i respect your opinions but answer me this what "modern weapon" (im assuming you mean firearm?) are you referring to? people still dont get it and think shooting a firearm is like doom where you point it with a mouse and click to shoot? mate you have to start being realistic.
> 
> Ask any professional pistol shooter about your theory and see what they say.




Looks like it may be happening - the crap they had before (still have) is just not good enough but after a cop was injured when his gun jammed Christine Nixon had a rethink, how thoughtful of her after the Police Association had been telling her for years. Glad to see her go.



> June 08'
> 
> Victoria's police will patrol the streets with semi-automatic guns within six months after a backflip by chief commissioner Christine Nixon.
> 
> ...


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## moXJO (16 December 2008)

:topic

Christine Nixon use to visit my neighbor (also a cop) and I use to chat to her a bit. She seemed like a very nice person, and at the time I didn't really have any idea of who she was. Then I saw her on TV when she first became Vic chief  What a bugger of a job to go for.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

moXJO said:


> :topic
> 
> Christine Nixon use to visit my neighbor (also a cop) and I use to chat to her a bit. She seemed like a very nice person, and at the time I didn't really have any idea of who she was. Then I saw her on TV when she first became Vic chief  What a bugger of a job to go for.




That position should be held by a hardliner who enforces the law with an iron fist. It's a jungle out there.


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## awg (16 December 2008)

I feel very sorry for the family of the guy who got shot.

However, for all those down on the cops.

ask yourself, what would you do if YOU were about to be attacked by a knife wielding crazy person,( or your collegue was) when you were armed, permitted and trained to fire.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

awg said:


> I feel very sorry for the family of the guy who got shot.
> 
> However, for all those down on the cops.
> 
> ask yourself, what would you do if YOU were about to be attacked by a knife wielding crazy person,( or your collegue was) when you were armed, permitted and trained to fire.




Latest account say he did advance on them, looks like he wanted them to fire on him, seems like they had no choice.

In retrospect, where were the freeking taser guns ? there should have been another way out of this. Not blaming the police, they are a victim of their training and equipment.


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## Uncle Barry (16 December 2008)

Good morning,
I trust this report is not true,

"2 shots in the leg and he didnt go down"

he was shot with .38 or 9mm projectiles, and didn't fall down...... 
AND then had to be shot multi times in the chest 

This must be some kind of sick joke surely other wise people will think the police just gunned him down like the 'crims' do.

One or two, 38 or 9mm from 15 meters or less....... no one will be standing.

Couldn't hit a set of legs at 15 meters, therefore they could not hit a selected target at this distance, AND HAD TO SHOOT FOR THE BODY MASS, if that is the case, then these officers should NOT be allowed to carry a firearm in public as they are a danger to themselves AND the public. 

This then must reflect on the Government, the police and their lack of screening potential officers and the lack of correct training !

Kind regards,
UB


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## awg (16 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good morning,
> I trust this report is not true,
> 
> "2 shots in the leg and he didnt go down"
> ...




come on now, Bruce Willis can be fired at hundreds of times and not get hit, even with machine guns


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## Ageo (16 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Looks like it may be happening - the crap they had before (still have) is just not good enough but after a cop was injured when his gun jammed Christine Nixon had a rethink, how thoughtful of her after the Police Association had been telling her for years. Glad to see her go.




Well a revolver is always more reliable then a semi simply because theres no room for jamming (and if the revolver miss fires you can click it over to the next chamber). But never have i heard a semi being more accurate then a revolver?

The only difference is the amount of shots you can get off and magazine capacity.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

Ageo said:


> Well a revolver is always more reliable then a semi simply because theres no room for jamming (and if the revolver miss fires you can click it over to the next chamber). But never have i heard a semi being more accurate then a revolver?
> 
> The only difference is the amount of shots you can get off and magazine capacity.




These are old revolvers very old out of date redundant shouldn't be in use get it ?


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## Uncle Barry (16 December 2008)

out of date 


please explain.
I've never seen or heard of an 'out of date' firearm.

What is the brand and model of these hand guns that the victorian police use that are 'out of date " ?

UB

sorry mate, but an 'out of date' handgun, your making me break up laughing.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> out of date
> 
> 
> please explain.
> ...




You're easily amused UB must be old age, dont you understand English ? out of date not a recent or current model and I would think the police need the latest, read the news item I posted earlier.


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## Prospector (16 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> This new article flys in the face of the firearms "experts" in this thread that reckon Police with pistols cant shoot legs ! ?




They disobeyed their basic training. Probably will cause them to be disciplined


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## Ageo (16 December 2008)

MrBurns said:


> You're easily amused UB must be old age, dont you understand English ? out of date not a recent or current model and I would think the police need the latest, read the news item I posted earlier.




hehe i understand what UB is chuckling about and even thow Nixon is talking about upgrading the arsenal an old revolver will sometimes shooter better than the new ones on the market.

But for whatever the reason even a state of the art competition pistol with all the bells and whistles still makes it useless to fire at a moving leg.

1st rule of shooting in a civilized place is body of mass, that way it prevents further injuries. Case closed


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## Happy (16 December 2008)

We have the benefit of almost infinite time and armchair comfort to analyse to the n-th degree what was done wrong.

I can see simple explanation for so many bullets; this was caused by 3 police personnel being in a position to save fourth one allegedly cornered.

They probably did not have time or simply did not make call ‘I got it’
Why? 

Maybe they did not work as one unit, hence some communication problems.

Another option, despite of being trained to tackle various situations they were not masters in this type of combat.

For some reason I do not blame Police for what happened.

Just few days later one Police officer was grazed by knife wielding woman.
Cannot find ABC report right now, but if somebody insists, I will get it.


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## Uncle Barry (16 December 2008)

Good afternoon Happy.
If your report is correct, 
"Just few days later one Police officer was grazed by knife wielding woman."

And the police person was armed with a handgun, then why didn't this police person shoot the women dead, with a number of rounds into her legs and chest ?


"I can see simple explanation for so many bullets; this was caused by 3 police personnel being in a position to save fourth one allegedly cornered"

One round discharged into the victim's legs would have brought this person down to the ground.

One round to the chest would have bought this person down to the ground.

Why 4 or 5 rounds hitting the victims, from 3 shooters, this must surely indicate that one police person discharged his or her fire arm a number of times directed to the victim. 

Why keep shooting ?

Mr Burns, 
"You're easily amused UB must be old age, dont you understand English "

Sorry Mr B, stupid answers, your personal attack, will not help a very serious situation, I don't think shooting anybody a number of times is the least bit funny or to be smart about !

I like others, wonder why the police appeared to 'put to death' this young person. Hence the questions, based on my shooting knowledge of over 50 years of shooting and fire arms.

Kind regards,
UB


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## Happy (16 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good afternoon Happy.
> If your report is correct,
> UB




Got the uneasy feeling that somewhat doubt was oozing out of this statement, so found it:



> From ABC, Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:34pm AEDT
> 
> OFFICER CUT AS POLICE DEAL WITH ANOTHER KNIFE THREAT
> 
> ...








Uncle Barry said:


> And the police person was armed with a handgun, then why didn't this police person shoot the women dead, with a number of rounds into her legs and chest ?
> UB




I can almost see, that all Police personnel was briefed and most probably urged not to pull out guns, of course I can be incorrect.




Uncle Barry said:


> One round discharged into the victim's legs would have brought this person down to the ground.
> UB




You missed the bit that 3 Police personnel independently acted, so 1 to leg and 1 to body = 6 bullets

I would rather see more guns used by Police when confronted with drawn weapon, but I have no say in this matter.


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## AAA (16 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good morning,
> I trust this report is not true,
> 
> "2 shots in the leg and he didnt go down"
> ...




I know of at least 2 instances police have hit knife wielding people ( one was a female) with multiple shots and they actually turned and ran away. There is no guarantee that a person will drop with one or two rounds in them ( even in the chest).

I would say as far as police go I am an average to above average shot with a handgun and I would not feel confident of hitting someone in the legs at 10 to 15 metres as they charged at me. I think the standard of marksmanship you expect is just not realistic. With a lot more training more police would approach or meet this standard, however we unfortunately have a job that doesn't allow time for this amount of training. Even with a lot more training it is hard to train someone to shoot accurately whilst under pressure.


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## MrBurns (16 December 2008)

Uncle Barry said:


> Mr Burns,
> "You're easily amused UB must be old age, dont you understand English "
> 
> Sorry Mr B, stupid answers, your personal attack, will not help a very serious situation, I don't think shooting anybody a number of times is the least bit funny or to be smart about !
> ...




I found your chuckling arrogant and offensive, sorry if my reponse did likewise to you.


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## kilgore (20 December 2008)

Okay,

There seems to be some doubt as to the potency of the 9mm round, particularly the 9mm hollowpoints as used by a huge section of global police forces. 

I won't go to the trouble of quoting people in the forum, because I'm too lazy to bother.

In short, all you need to do is look at some high speed film of hollowpoint bullets going through ballistics gel to realise how effective they really are. 

If they weren't I'm pretty sure police would be issued with .357mag or similar.

That being said, single knife disarmament is fairly risky at the best of times, let alone disarming someone with two knives without getting yourself killed in the process. 

I have personally been schooled by some pretty savvy streetfighters about this, and I reckon even the pros would have doubts . 

I think that police are in need of more ranged weapon options like metsubushi (powders that are thrown into the face and eyes that temporarily disable) the three-foot staff, which is just a longer version of a billy club, in addition to toughened clothing like gauntlets that will protect them from needle-stick and blade assaults. 

Even so, I don't think they will ever teach australian police to physically disarm knife weilders, and I highly doubt they ever will, since the cost of one tiny mistake in a knife struggle is your life.  

In all honesty, a cop's best chances are to subdue with ranged options like mace or a taser, and the final resort being firearms. 

I do feel sorry and sad for all involved, but especially for the young bloke who was killed.


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## dalek (21 December 2008)

kilgore said:


> Okay,
> 
> There seems to be some doubt as to the potency of the 9mm round, particularly the 9mm hollowpoints as used by a huge section of global police forces.
> 
> ...


----------

