# Tasered for asking John Kerry questions



## BradK (18 September 2007)

Look at this link at news.com.au and smh.com.au 

Can you BELIEVE this? Welcome to our Western police state. Scary times indeed. 

Cheers
Brad

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/tasered-for-asking-kerry-questions/2007/09/18/1189881504453.html


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## vishalt (18 September 2007)

Apparantely this video was "edited", some other girl was suppose to have her turn, but REGARDLESS the police took it too far. 

He was asking the question, and then they cut his mic off during a good question that Kerry wanted to answer (I hope the idiot that cut him off rots in hell) - then the police could have just pacified him peacefully, but no they force him into the ground, not only have they got him buckled but take it TOO FAR by tasering them. 

I hate the US police, they are scum, I'd rather trust a felon.

And you know what, I can just see the Australian police going down the same path because we're the worlds most suck-up nation. 

The other day I had so much luggage to carry, I ask the stationmaster kindly to open the disabled doors so I can pass through - drop my stuff and show the ticket instead of going through that 10cm-spaced machine, but no, a police officer comes up, demands that I go through the conventional way with much trouble. 

Why do I feel like I'm a criminal each time I see a cop, aren't the police supposed to make us feel protected, rather than regulated?

Hate US police, about to hate Australian police. 

I can just see us importing US-made tasers soon to "keep the peace" in this country. 

But hey go buy some shares of US weapons companies when that happens, their CEO's will love your cash and give you an awesome 5c dividend with a $500 stock price.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Four police couldn't control him?   BS!!!

There is no way we should ever permit tasers into Australia !!

I mean the NSW police have given themselves a whitewash over removing their badge numbers during APEC demonstrations. 

(Devil's Advocate) ON THAT OCCASION, there was one hell of a lot at stake.   And  some of the protestors were wearing beanies. 

But I can tell you that the cops can also be a law unto themselves, and no way would I vote to give em tasers.


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## wayneL (18 September 2007)

I come from the US and I can tell you, I will only go there again if I can't avoid it. (death in the family or some such reason)

That guy was a bit out of control and did resist the police. BUT, the police's actions were entirely inappropriate.

This is not just a one off, this crap is happening all the time now.


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## cuttlefish (18 September 2007)

Home of the "brave". Land of the "free".


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> I come from the US and I can tell you, I will only go there again if I can't avoid it. (death in the family or some such reason)
> 
> That guy was a bit out of control and did resist the police. BUT, the police's actions were entirely inappropriate.
> 
> This is not just a one off, this crap is happening all the time now.




I would doubt that "this crap is happening all the time".From what I've seen he wouldn't shut up at a public meeting. A bit of Tasering and a rough up never did any harm. I've been shoved around at demos by police in my time. He'll get over it. Now if he was in Baghdad with one of Usama's thugs at a roadblock, then he'd have something to worry about. The US is a great place and gets too many knocks for all the good it does in the world.

Garpal


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## vishalt (18 September 2007)

Have you been tasered/buckled/humilated and denied freedom of speech in public before Garpal?


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## Porper (18 September 2007)

BradK said:


> Look at this link at news.com.au and smh.com.au
> 
> Can you BELIEVE this? Welcome to our Western police state. Scary times indeed.
> 
> ...




I can't see the problem.

The guy was doing a Hollywood, squeeling like a shot pig when police tried to walk him off.

Big baby deserved it.It's not like somebody put a gun to his head.Young men these days need to harden up a bit i.m.o.


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

vishalt said:


> Have you been tasered/buckled/humilated and denied freedom of speech in public before Garpal?




They didn't have tasers in my day. But have been hit by a truncheon once on the head, ( no jokes) and about the body, also kicked. Humiliated yes. Denied free speech in public yes. This nutter denied everyone else a go. So he deserved what he got. He 's a baby and should just move on. 

Garpal


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## wayneL (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would doubt that "this crap is happening all the time".From what I've seen he wouldn't shut up at a public meeting. A bit of Tasering and a rough up never did any harm. I've been shoved around at demos by police in my time. He'll get over it. Now if he was in Baghdad with one of Usama's thugs at a roadblock, then he'd have something to worry about. The US is a great place and gets too many knocks *for all the good it does in the world*.
> 
> Garpal



I hear your opinion, but suggest a bit more research before becoming trenchant in it. Inappropriate tasering is rife, as is Republican biased impingement of freedom of speech.

The USA, on balance, used to be a force for good in the world, despite its frequent imperialist interventions (not including the world wars where the US was on the side of justice). It is now the most dangerous nations on earth and the most likely nation to spark a new intercontinental war.

There are some great folk in the US and I have a great deal of respect for many individuals, however the "establishment", for want of a better word, is pure evil.

*** My Opinion, which I am sure you will disagree***


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A bit of Tasering and a rough up never did any harm.



jees Garpal
you a cop or sompin? 


> TASER Danger?
> 70 Deaths After Use Of Stun Gun Lead To Questions Over Its Safety



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> jees Garpal
> you a cop or sompin?
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml




No mate, wouldn't have the patience for it, all the lip they take from low to high life.

Garpal


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## ZacR (18 September 2007)

vishalt said:


> Why do I feel like I'm a criminal each time I see a cop, aren't the police supposed to make us feel protected, rather than regulated?




Spot on.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> No mate, wouldn't have the patience for it, all the lip they take from low to high life.
> 
> Garpal



maybe in your case a taser would be a good idea
 presumably your preference would be a bullet in the leg or something


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## Kimosabi (18 September 2007)

Raw Footage

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1190085332

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4b_1190069526

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ec_1190097717

I thought he asked some pretty valid questions.

All the police need now are some nazi ss ingignia on their collars...


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## cuttlefish (18 September 2007)

Looks like a situation where a small amount of simple diplomacy could easily have cooled the situation. And if that didn't work, one cop, on one arm, briskly escorting him out of the place would have sufficed.

Is speaking too long at a microphone a criminal offence in America?  Its not like this guy was shouting obscenities or making threats.


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## wayneL (18 September 2007)

vishalt said:


> Why do I feel like I'm a criminal each time I see a cop, aren't the police supposed to make us feel protected, rather than regulated?



Because the role of the police is ever so subtly changing from protecting the people from criminals, to protecting the gu'mint from the people.

The essence of a police state.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Inappropriate tasering is rife, *as is Republican biased impingement of freedom of speech.*
> 
> *** My Opinion, which I am sure you will disagree***



ahhh the penny drops !!! 

and Wayne, for once we agree, lol

If you listen to Kims link , you will hear John Kerry saying "ok ok let's cool it " - but no the cops are "right in there".

Bit like the "minders" who circulate amongst the crowd in the shareholders AGM meetings in Japan lol

PS Gee I wonder if John Kerry's version of the incident is available on youtube and/or google yet?


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## Kimosabi (18 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Because the role of the police is ever so subtly changing from protecting the people from criminals, to protecting the gu'mint from the people.
> 
> The essence of a police state.




And don't forget about the gradual militarization of the Police Force as well.

I think the most appropriate question that needs to be asked by everyone, is What possibly could the Government have to hide???


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## disarray (18 September 2007)

the guy was a twat. why do people always arc up at the cops? is it retardation? instead of walking off quietly and with dignity, he has to showboat and jump up and down and resist and make some stupid pointless political statement and embarass himself.

like others on this thread i've seen other videos of this nature and just about every single time the person being tasered is acting like a dick.

from some random article -



> "He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.
> 
> "He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off then he became upset."




it took a shock but i think he finally learnt an important life lesson - you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. "freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom to act like an idiot".


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> maybe in your case a taser would be a good idea
> presumably your preference would be a bullet in the leg or something




2020, I think you need to take a bex(do they still make bex?) and have a lie down. 

My point is that I find ugly demonstrators as nauseating as ugly police. When either goes all in, the loser needs to just get on with it.

All the conspiracy police theories are just that .. theories.

Garpal


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## vishalt (18 September 2007)

You know what the saddest thing is? John Kerry probably had the power to come down there and tell everyone to take a breather, but he didn't, because he's a typical, manipulative, scummy US politician.

I don't get what people mean when they say "get on with it"? Garpal if I tasered your wife and locked her up in Guantanamo for oh, say a decade, and tell you to "get on with it" would it be really that easy?

Are you simply just gonna watch something that cruel, something which can be done WAY more peacefully, and just say "get on with it"? Who the hell "gets on with it" after getting electricuted, or beaten up?

Investors who lost their fortunes in Northern Rock should really just "get on with it", stuff trying to make a more secure British banking system JUST GET ON WITH IT LOL. 

Zimbabweian women need to stop whinging about genital mutilation and JUST GET ON WITH IT!!!

US people should just accept their police not trying to do things peacefully, get tasered, and JUST GET ON WITH IT, they stuffed up the middle east oh well JUST GET ON WITH IT hey! The US devoured the worlds banking system through its progrilific ways, JUST GET ON WITH IT!


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## caleb2003 (18 September 2007)

I agree, he was a ****, needed a swift kick in the balls, but i suppose tasers must be worse.

Worst thing is, he'll be jabbering on about this for years, especially if he gets some TV interviews etc.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Garpal Gumnut  *...
> A bit of Tasering and a rough up never did any harm.



?? 
maybe you could rephrase that then 

My point is that the bludy things are potentially lethal.

Whether or not he was being a nerd. I just don't like tasers (hard to say without seeing all the footage either side of this incident) Him being arguably "difficult" is not the main point for me.

PS lol - I also suspect some truth in that political motive theory... 
would he have been tasered if he were asking embarrassing questions at the expense of the Democrats ? no bludy way , lol


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## wayneL (18 September 2007)

disarray said:


> the guy was a twat. why do people always arc up at the cops? is it retardation? instead of walking off quietly and with dignity, he has to showboat and jump up and down and resist and make some stupid pointless political statement and embarass himself.
> 
> like others on this thread i've seen other videos of this nature and just about every single time the person being tasered is acting like a dick.
> 
> ...



I think you are focusing on the wrong thing.

Sure the guy was a numpty and out of order. But notice Kerry wanted to answer his questions? Then the coppers jumped in; inappropriate at that point.

Then he resists the police, bad move. The police were entitled to remove him and possibly arrest him for that. 

But should they have tasered him? Absolutely not. He was adequately restrained by FOUR policemen and woman and could have been easily cuffed and removed, there was no threat to the police at that point, but they used a weapon. 

Inappropriate force.


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## chops_a_must (18 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> Looks like a situation where a small amount of simple diplomacy could easily have cooled the situation. And if that didn't work, one cop, on one arm, briskly escorting him out of the place would have sufficed.
> 
> Is speaking too long at a microphone a criminal offence in America?  Its not like this guy was shouting obscenities or making threats.




Yep. So it's a crime to ask questions in a PUBLIC FORUM now? WTF? 

Police are notoriously bad at dealing with people who are clearly mentally ill. I thought John Kerry could have done more to calm down the situation. But his lack of assertiveness has always been a problem. He did however say that he wanted to answer his questions... so why was this guy led out then?

Well... it's not really a surprise that this occurred in Florida, when issues of electoral fraud are raised.

I can't find any comments about it by JK, but what I can gather is that police officers on the UF college site are no longer going to be safe, going by some of the college pages. And fair enough too.

Just seems to be a growing trend in western countries... especially in those with very conservative governments...


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## chops_a_must (18 September 2007)

disarray said:


> it took a shock but i think he finally learnt an important life lesson - you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. "freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom to act like an idiot".



Ummm... so why are Wilson Tuckey and Bill Heffernan still alive?


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My point is that I find ugly demonstrators as nauseating as ugly police.



Garpal, when you were a demonstrator , were you ugly? or good looking in those days ....  whatever - lot of water appears to have flowed under the bridge since . 



chops_a_must said:


> Ummm... so why are Wilson Tuckey and Bill Heffernan still alive?



pffftt lol - ripper


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## explod (18 September 2007)

disarray said:


> the guy was a twat. why do people always arc up at the cops? is it retardation? instead of walking off quietly and with dignity, he has to showboat and jump up and down and resist and make some stupid pointless political statement and embarass himself.
> 
> like others on this thread i've seen other videos of this nature and just about every single time the person being tasered is acting like a dick.
> 
> ...






Dont' know about the laws of public assembly and meetings in the US but in Australia the Chairman of the essembly, in this case it would be Kerry is supposed to control the situation.   Police have no right to step in unless there is an indication from the Chair or official lead person to do so.  There may have been some prior understanding or signal perhaps worked out with the authourities but I think with a polititian like Kerry that is unlikely in the scenario played out here.

As an ex-cop of 28 years it is my view that the actions of the police in this case if it was here in Aus., would be right out of order.   If that is the way of USA I am glad I live here.

Some of us are bit nutty on these forums too but because we are a free democracy we can all have a fair hearing, even if there is some very solid argument, its healthy.   Forced repression of views is corrupt.


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

vishalt said:


> You know what the saddest thing is? John Kerry probably had the power to come down there and tell everyone to take a breather, but he didn't, because he's a typical, manipulative, scummy US politician.
> 
> I don't get what people mean when they say "get on with it"? Garpal if I tasered your wife and locked her up in Guantanamo for oh, say a decade, and tell you to "get on with it" would it be really that easy?
> 
> ...




Vishalt, this tasering is not an atrocity. Your atrocious analogies are indefensible, and I would never attempt to do so. I just feel that every now and then when a pillock behaves like a pork chop then a good kick up the **** or a taser is an experience that for him may cause pause for thought, and  for the rest of us will enable free speech and the chance to ask questions of important politicians like John Kerry. Then again he could be mentally ill. Or the copper could have been. Its not all that important. The poor lady in Zimbabwe is important. By the way Mrs Gumnut hates the Caribbean. She's a good shot so you'd have to be quick with the taser.

Garpal


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## dhukka (18 September 2007)

disarray said:


> the guy was a twat. why do people always arc up at the cops? is it retardation? instead of walking off quietly and with dignity, he has to showboat and jump up and down and resist and make some stupid pointless political statement and embarass himself.
> 
> like others on this thread i've seen other videos of this nature and just about every single time the person being tasered is acting like a dick.
> 
> ...




Spot on. I agree Wayne that the cops may have jumped the gun a little but this guy is being a complete asshole and whinging like a baby. Personally I would have liked to have given him more than a tazering.


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## Ageo (18 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> ??
> 
> My point is that the bludy things are potentially lethal.





The 1 i used to have you would need to hold it to a persons neck for 30seconds before they ended up in a coma (not dead). 30 seconds is a long time in a scuffle, (mine was a high voltage 1 also). Its like saying i dont support police having batons/ guns etc.. yes they might have over reacted but at the end of the day at least he knows in the future whos boss. These days police are treated like scum and are walked all over.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ec_1190097717
ok - they lead him to the door
everyone seems to be really surprised , many ask "what did he do !!??" 

he tries to break free instead of going through the door
they get him down to cuff him


> Kerry is heard to say "hey officers... can we.....
> hey folks ....
> 
> hey folks...
> ...



police response ?  ....... TASER!!

girls scream "why are you doing that !!"

police finish cuffing, drag him out - march out as if rear guard action for a 5 man SAS team evacuating a CONTACT.

sheesh what a lot of BS!

(from someone who used to have the yardglass record in the SAS mess lol)


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## explod (18 September 2007)

Ageo said:


> The 1 i used to have you would need to hold it to a persons neck for 30seconds before they ended up in a coma (not dead). 30 seconds is a long time in a scuffle, (mine was a high voltage 1 also). Its like saying i dont support police having batons/ guns etc.. yes they might have over reacted but at the end of the day at least he knows in the future whos boss. These days police are treated like scum and are walked all over.




Police are supposed to be impartial and an instrument to keep the peace on behalf of and for the people.   Out of the violent demonstrations of the early 1970's we learnt to allow the people to express themselves and a certain amount of missbehaviour was tolerated.   Unfortunately some  take advantage of this and so we have almost reached zero tolerance.

Your understanding that the police are the boss is very dissapointing.   A change of government thinking and perhaps government certainly looks due.  I think it was Whitlam who came to power at the height of the Vietnam riots and police then moderated thier approach.  The over the top security at Sydney recently could be a strong sign. 

But yes I agree these types of weapons in anyones hands against our fellow human beings is abhorrentt


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## cuttlefish (18 September 2007)

dhukka said:


> Spot on. I agree Wayne that the cops may have jumped the gun a little but this guy is being a complete asshole and whinging like a baby. Personally I would have liked to have given him more than a tazering.




Why did the police man handle him in the first place? What law did he break that required police to commence physical restraint?  At what stage did he become someone hogging the mike, who got a bit annoyed when it got cut off, to a criminal requiring restraint?  At what stage was he warned that his behaviour was illegal and if he continued he would be arrested and physically restrained? Clearly John Kerry didn't think he was acting criminally or he wouldn't have been agreeing to answer the question.

Do the police have the right in America to physically restrain someone without cause? If not then what was the cause for restraint, and if there was none then he was being illegally assaulted - justifiable reason for attempting to resist the assualt and asking for help. 

Also what are the criterion for inciting a riot - is talking too long at a microphone inciting a riot? 

The police behaviour was far more likely to incite a riot than the actions of the gentleman concerned.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Ageo said:


> The 1 i used to have you would need to hold it to a persons neck for 30seconds before they ended up in a coma (not dead). 30 seconds is a long time in a scuffle, (mine was a high voltage 1 also). Its like saying i dont support police having batons/ guns etc.. yes they might have over reacted but at the end of the day at least he knows in the future whos boss. These days police are treated like scum and are walked all over.



Ageo
This is an important one in my books.
Aus seriously doesn't need these things. 
As I posted back there ... (incidentally an article posted today !!
Obviously this is getting publicity in the USA as well .  (thanks God) 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml



> NB  "*If you have someone who has a knife, who is threatening other people but isn't quite at the level where you'd use lethal force, you'd pre-empt with the TASER,* get them safely under control before it escalates."



BUT THAT's not how the cops use it !!!

Note last sentence ....
"70 people have died after being TASERed, including 10 in August alone"




> When CBS News Correspondent Wyatt Andews first started looking into police use of the TASER stun gun a year ago, the weapon had been connected to more than 40 deaths. The company that makes the weapon insisted that none of the deaths was the TASER's fault.
> 
> So, says Andrews, "We began asking, simply, how could that be? What was the real safety record of this weapon?"
> 
> ...


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Ageo
> This is an important one in my books.
> Aus seriously doesn't need these things.
> As I posted back there ... (incidentally an article posted today !!
> ...




Dear 2020,

I have done a search on the lethality of tasers and read your quoted cbs article in detail.

I find the evidence lacking for their lethality. Many of the quoted cases were overweight, unfit, on substances or being subdued or assaulting others forcibly. Thus the evidence for implicating tasers is weak, very weak. 

Garpal


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## insider (18 September 2007)

God Bless America :


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

lol - here's some more reading matter then 

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=tasers+death&meta=

believe me Garpal - you are full of it on this one - kid yourself as long as you like . 

As for being overweight (and a miscellany of other excuses)  - watch out some of em smoked cigars as well.


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## cuttlefish (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Many of the quoted cases were overweight, unfit, on substances or being subdued or assaulting others forcibly. Thus the evidence for implicating tasers is weak, very weak.




I don't really get this point. If someone who is unfit or overweight is at risk of death from being tazered, or someone who is under the influence of a substance is at risk of death from being tazered, then that would mean tazers are dangerous wouldn't it?   There are also medical conditions that would increase the risk of being tazered causing either death or permanent physical injury.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> I don't really get this point. If someone who is unfit or overweight is at risk of death from being tazered, or someone who is under the influence of a substance is at risk of death from being tazered, then that would mean tazers are dangerous wouldn't it?   There are also medical conditions that would increase the risk of being tazered causing either death or permanent physical injury.



spot on cuttlefish 
agreed (said the beak)
case for tasers dismissed !


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## Julia (18 September 2007)

Presumably if the police were to use a taser on someone with a vulnerability to muscle spasm et al, they could be sued if significant and lasting harm were to occur?

Judging by the continued unco-operative behaviour of the bloke making the fuss, the dreaded taser seems to have been less than effective anyway.

I can understand the police losing patience with prats like this, but they sure as hell didn't get much assistance from the completely ineffectual John Kerry.


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## chops_a_must (18 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have done a search on the lethality of tasers and read your quoted cbs article in detail.
> 
> I find the evidence lacking for their lethality. Many of the quoted cases were overweight, unfit, on substances or being subdued or assaulting others forcibly. Thus the evidence for implicating tasers is weak, very weak.
> 
> Garpal




I don't, you are looking fairly silly about this now.

How many overweight, unfit and people suffering from heart conditions die when normally restrained by police? And how many die when restrained by a taser? If it is more with the latter, there is a causal link. Simple.

It seems that a lot of people that are dying in these cases, suffer from some kind of mental illness. A lot of the medications used for these things will effect the heart and adrenalin levels. If you have a weak heart, an undiagnosed condition, or are on a medication that puts the heart under stress, any shock to the system can be fatal. Until they can prove that these things are safe on every member of the public, in combination with any medication, they shouldn't be used. Because the police using them wont have knowledge of the person's medical history, or medication status, thereby putting them at risk.

They'd be far better off firing valium darts rather than using tasers. It would counteract any stimulant, and not put stress on the heart, plus achieving the same effect.


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Julia said:


> Judging by the continued unco-operative behaviour of the bloke making the fuss, the dreaded taser seems to have been less than effective anyway.
> 
> I can understand the police losing patience with prats like this, but they sure as hell didn't get much assistance from the completely ineffectual John Kerry.



here you go then Julia
 for $1000 you too can have your own taser !!! 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7295368/


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## insider (18 September 2007)

Julia said:


> Presumably if the police were to use a taser on someone with a vulnerability to muscle spasm et al, they could be sued if significant and lasting harm were to occur?
> 
> Judging by the continued unco-operative behaviour of the bloke making the fuss, the dreaded taser seems to have been less than effective anyway.
> 
> I can understand the police losing patience with prats like this, but they sure as hell didn't get much assistance from the completely ineffectual John Kerry.




I think the point of the taser is to make the subject exhausted...


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> How many overweight, unfit and people suffering from heart conditions die when normally restrained by police? And how many die when restrained by a taser? If it is more with the latter, there is a causal link. Simple.



chops - no argument ... but .. it gets worse 

we've just seen a court case up at Palm Island where a man with broken ribs and a liver split in two probably due to an impact equivalent to a car crash....

and the Judge and jury had to rule it was probably "one of those things" - bad luck etc - where the policeman involved hardly even remembered bumping into him - in fact thought he landed beside him etc


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

Julia said:


> 1. Presumably if the police were to use a taser on someone with a vulnerability to muscle spasm et al, they could be sued if significant and lasting harm were to occur?
> 
> 2. Judging by the continued unco-operative behaviour of the bloke making the fuss, the dreaded taser seems to have been less than effective anyway.
> 
> 3. I can understand the police losing patience with prats like this, but they sure as hell didn't get much assistance from the completely ineffectual John Kerry.




1. you are pretty wild with your presumptions Julia

2. ?? empathy ? good one

3. ?? - who asked the police in in the first place !!? - sheesh 

maybe - given your logic above  - you'd say JK himself should have had one in his back pocket - better still - 4 or 5 - to use on the police!!


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## 2020hindsight (18 September 2007)

explod said:


> As an ex-cop of 28 years it is my view that the actions of the police in this case if it was here in Aus., would be right out of order.   If that is the way of USA I am glad I live here.



spot on man

never thought I'd agree with a cop either lol


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## It's Snake Pliskin (19 September 2007)

Ageo said:


> The 1 i used to have you would need to hold it to a persons neck for 30seconds before they ended up in a coma (not dead). 30 seconds is a long time in a scuffle, (mine was a high voltage 1 also). Its like saying i dont support police having batons/ guns etc.. yes they might have over reacted but at the end of the day at least he knows in the future whos boss. These days police are treated like scum and are walked all over.




Ageo,

I agree that is sends a message as to who is the boss. He did carry on like a little pig, perhaps with years of mummy and daddy softening him up. "Sweety you have rights" constantly drummed into... What ever happened to *"responsibilities"?* In this case, to shut up. Time's up - simple!

But the police did go overboard at the start. Maybe Mr kerry could have controlled it if given the chance.


----------



## insider (19 September 2007)

You must admit that the guy did act like a douche bag...


----------



## vishalt (19 September 2007)

insider said:


> You must admit that the guy did act like a douche bag...



and that justifies the police being douche bags and using electricity?

................................. 

he wasnt even a threat


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 September 2007)

insider said:


> You must admit that the guy did act like a douche bag...




Some more on the turkey who was tasered., from an eyewitness, who was at the John Kerry talk and who knows the turkey..

   "Here is a website containing old columns written by tasered UF journalism student, Andrew Meyer. I thought you might find them interesting.

http://www.freewebs.com/newforum/bioandpersonalstories.htm

    It’s evident from some of his writings, that he is nothing but a spoiled little kid in constant need of attention. In one of the “personal stories” he brags about taunting Ken Griffey, Jr. at a baseball game. Now, I enjoy a good heckle as much as the next guy, but it’s just supposed to be fun entertainment at a game. In his story, he is so proud of himself that he was important enough for Griffey to take notice, not to mention all the people around him at the game. He felt the need to brag about the incident to everyone online, as if we are all supposed to be impressed.

    If you watch the video of his arrest, you can see that the same mentality is on display here. He wanted to get arrested from the beginning. He was basically goading the police into doing something by shouting “what are you going to do, arrest me?” Well, Andrew, yes… When you repeatedly ignore orders to peacefully leave, that’s what happens.

    As a former University of Florida student, I’m glad that they are making attempts to control these public speaking events. The university works hard to bring in speakers of all viewponts (admittedly more liberals than conservatives), and these are a valuable resource available to the students. Too many times, I have witnessed these events being hijacked by students who have no intention of contributing anything to the discussion in a civil manner. They simply want to use these events as a platform for their own crazy conspiracy theories."

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (19 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Some more on the turkey who was tasered., from an eyewitness, who was at the John Kerry talk and who knows the turkey..
> 
> " Here is a website containing old columns written by tasered UF journalism student, Andrew Meyer. I thought you might find them interesting.
> 
> ...




Garp,

You are confused and mixing up issues.

Being annoying in no justification for being tazed.

Asked to leave be quiet/leave for being out of order? - yes.

Manhandled out the door? - yes

Arrested for resisting? - yes

Tazed under those circumstances? - Absolutely not.

If being annoying and attention seeking is justification for being tazed, then we really have entered the twilight zone.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 September 2007)

coming back to Brad's original link ...
I am reminded of an old joke 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/tasered-for-asking-kerry-questions/2007/09/18/1189881504453.html


> Andrew Meyer, 21, asked the Democrat senator why he did not contest the 2004 presidential election, which he lost to President Bush, and *why there had been no moves to impeach Mr Bush*.    ... police... tasers etc






> George Bush visits Bourke school whilst touring Western NSW..
> "OK children" says the teacher - "aren't we lucky to have President Bush here with us today  well, are there any little questions you'd like to ASK President Bush?"
> 
> pregnant pause, Smithy's hand shoots up.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 September 2007)

smh article again 


> Meyer was scheduled to appear in court *Tuesday morning*, a jail official said.
> 
> Orlando said university police would conduct an internal investigation on the incident.
> 
> "The *police department does have a standard procedure *for when they use force, *including when they use a Taser," *Orlando said. "*That is what the internal investigation would address *- whether the proper procedures were followed, whether the officers acted appropriately."




Any guesses as to what the "internal investigation" will find?.


----------



## imajica (19 September 2007)

the US police force is full of delusional thugs - using excessive force just to satisfy their own sadistic nature - most police are bottom feeders who failed to get into uni and are basically bitter because they have to deal with society's turds - they  are also underpaid considering the risk - so they take their frustration out on the general public


----------



## mime (19 September 2007)

Don't feel to sorry him. He will probably get a huge payout from the media exposure. This is probably the best thing that has ever happened to him.


----------



## cuttlefish (19 September 2007)

A young student, enthusiastic and a little overconfident (nothing like the exuberance of youth) has the courage to throw down the debating gauntlet to someone he clearly had respect for (JK).  He came with a well prepared set of questions that were set up well and eloquently presented and introduced himself respectfully to the speaker. 

Lively debate, challenging boundaries and spirited exploration of ideas is part and parcel of the passage through adolescence, particulary in a higher learning institution. John Kerry, in the spirit of this environment, appeared to look forward to taking up the challenge thrown down by this young enthusiastic individual and agreed to respond.

DEN DA POLICE GOT DA PUNK WIT DA TAZER


----------



## explod (19 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> A young student, enthusiastic and a little overconfident (nothing like the exuberance of youth) has the courage to throw down the debating gauntlet to someone he clearly had respect for (JK).  He came with a well prepared set of questions that were set up well and eloquently presented and introduced himself respectfully to the speaker.
> 
> Lively debate, challenging boundaries and spirited exploration of ideas is part and parcel of the passage through adolescence, particulary in a higher learning institution. John Kerry, in the spirit of this environment, appeared to look forward to taking up the challenge thrown down by this young enthusiastic individual and agreed to respond.
> 
> DEN DA POLICE GOT DA PUNK WIT DA TAZER




Very well put Cuttlefish.     The way authourity behaves under the banner of the fight against terror should send a chill up the spine of those who cherish freedom and peace.   In my view anyone that does not think the police reaction was a disgrace has a big problem.


----------



## Ageo (19 September 2007)

explod said:


> In my view anyone that does not think the police reaction was a disgrace has a big problem.




Yes i agree but if you listen the police warned him several times and even told him if he doesnt stop resisting they are going to taser him (did he think there joking)?? when a police officer restrains you and you resist that means your not co-operating, if he layed there calmly they would have just escorted him out peacefully.


----------



## Julia (19 September 2007)

mime said:


> Don't feel to sorry him. He will probably get a huge payout from the media exposure. This is probably the best thing that has ever happened to him.




And probably exactly what he was looking for, given the comments from the Uni of Florida student which Garpal quoted.

And, 2020 Hindsight, you manage to draw quite astonishing conclusions from my earlier comments.  I have not supported the use of a taser.  I simply observed that on the video it appeared to do little to subdue him.
Further, though, no I do not have empathy for some twit whose main purpose is disruption.


----------



## disarray (19 September 2007)

tasers are non-lethal weapons. accidental deaths may result but such is also the case with a baton to the head, a sleeper hold or slipping over and bashing your head. unfortunate but such is life. i fully support the police having many levels of force to deal with situations.



			
				WayneL said:
			
		

> Being annoying in no justification for being tazed




yes it is. it really is very simple, don't arc up at authority.

problem today is what snake said - people constantly have this idea drummed into their head that they are precious little wonders and end up shocked and surprised when someone beats the snot out of them for being a loudmouth.

http://www.winknews.com/news/local/9849252.html

a decent video of the incident. the guy was a complete douchebag and i would have tasered him as well. might shock some sense into him and teach him in the future to stfu because no one really cares about your self-important opinions.


----------



## drmb (19 September 2007)

Last time I was in the US (last week!) tasers were on sale over the counter in shopping plaza, together with slingshots, pepper spray, crossbows, etc. In a land where personal weapons like this are on sale, not sure if I was a pol ossifer that I would be taking any chances. In the US if a police person or security guard gives you instructions best advice is comply politely or suffer!


----------



## cuttlefish (19 September 2007)

explod said:


> In my view anyone that does not think the police reaction was a disgrace has a big problem.




I am also surprised that people think the police behaviour was reasonable, and thus far have not seen anyone actually explain why he was restrained in the first place.  

If the initial restraint was illegal and unecessary then all the subsequent reactions by the bloke seem completely reasonable though possibly not the smartest course of action.

Yeah sure it is possible he was deliberately baiting them - in which case all the more reason for the police to have acted with restraint.

My understanding is that Tazer's are meant to be used defensively in a situation where police consider that a person might be at risk of harming others or themselves. They were originally introduced as a way to reduce the number of people getting shot weren't they? Would a shooting have been justified in this situation?  Sounds like some people think so.

With 5 people restraining him I don't think this bloke was a danger to anyone and so I don't see how anyone can justify the use of the tazer.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 September 2007)

disarray said:


> and surprised when someone beats the snot out of them for being a loudmouth.
> 
> .. i would have tasered him as well. might shock some sense into him and teach him in the future to stfu because no one really cares about your self-important opinions.



sheesh I'm assuming you're taking a lend of us here, disarray- 

but if you really do believe that 
and you aren't just dramatising a red neck position to add some spice
then the question will become "will anyone really care about your self-important opinions" as well.


----------



## insider (19 September 2007)

vishalt said:


> and that justifies the police being douche bags and using electricity?
> 
> .................................
> 
> he wasnt even a threat




They are all douche bags IMO... However the officer did warn him several times about the taser... But still a taser is heavy handed and he was just asking a question... God Bless America 

I bet If I asked the question I would stayed long enough to finish it...


----------



## cuttlefish (19 September 2007)

disarray said:


> yes it is. it really is very simple, don't arc up at authority.
> ...
> the guy was a complete douchebag and i would have tasered him as well




What if the authority is acting outside the rule of law?

If you are walking along the footpath and a policeman tells you to cross the road would you quietly and obligingly comply without question or ask and expect to be told why? 

If you are walking along the footpath and a policewoman asks you to dance around like a gorilla making 'ooh' 'ooh' noises would you quietly and obligingly comply?  Or would you be a 'douchebag' and 'arc up'?


----------



## disarray (19 September 2007)

watch the video hindsight. not the 30 second youtube one which just shows him getting tasered but the one i posted that showed an obnoxious, aggressive, sanctimonious and slightly unhinged individual push people away, resist arrest and completely ignore all instruction to stop struggling.

cops - "stop resisting or you will be tased"
git - "help me omg get off me ahhhh"

its why i love watching Cops. they try and be reasonable but firm, some idiot arcs up in a towering rage of self-righteousness and gets smacked down. its almost like watching a darwin award.

when people get emotional (as this guy was) they lose their sense of reason and become completely self-absorbed - almost a state of hysteria. in old movies when people get hysterical a short sharp slap across the mouth snaps them out of it and subdues them. a quick jolt of electricity has much the same effect and this is the purpose of the taser.

i think we should bring back the cane in schools, flog rapists and thieves and execute those who commit murder. i also believe police have the right and the duty to control irrational, overly emotional people, and if this method involves tasering then so be it. obviously many feel differently, as is their right so i respect that.

at its heart this is a question of personal limits - some think we should be free to do what we want when we want. others think human beings need to be shown their limits and need to learn to respect the fact that there IS a higher authority than the individual. peoples opinions about this incident will reflect their wider view on how society should be run. yay for democracy.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> then the question will become "will anyone really care about your self-important opinions" as well




i don't expect them to.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (19 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> What if the authority is acting outside the rule of law?
> 
> If you are walking along the footpath and a policeman tells you to cross the road would you quietly and obligingly comply without question or ask and expect to be told why?
> 
> If you are walking along the footpath and a policewoman asks you to dance around like a gorilla making 'ooh' 'ooh' noises would you quietly and obligingly comply?  Or would you be a 'douchebag' and 'arc up'?




That is absurd and extreme.

How about: I get asked to stop talking because my time is up and I obey! Responsible. Rights come second to resposibilities.


----------



## disarray (19 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> What if the authority is acting outside the rule of law?




then organise and try to effect change. getting mad at the foot soldier won't do anything except get you busted.



			
				cuttlefish said:
			
		

> If you are walking along the footpath and a policeman tells you to cross the road would you quietly and obligingly comply without question or ask and expect to be told why?




i saw this happen at APEC. you see that middle aged guy try to cross the road, be refused, try to cross anyway and get taken down? its just simple emotional control - don't raise your voice, don't assume an aggressive stance and don't try to plow through the obstacle. be polite and there will rarely be any problems.



			
				cuttlefish said:
			
		

> If you are walking along the footpath and a policewoman asks you to dance around like a gorilla making 'ooh' 'ooh' noises would you quietly and obligingly comply?  Or would you be a 'douchebag' and 'arc up'?




silly example.



			
				It's Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Rights come second to resposibilities




that point is the essence of the argument. i would think that those being outraged by this incident believe rights come first.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 September 2007)

back to tasers
we are talking about using cattle prods on people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_prod 

I went searching for horse battery ...
and came up with this .. 


> Austrian Corps in Russia in 1812 & Their Opponents16th Horse Battery. Total 57526 men and 180 guns (July 1812). In September, 1812 Tormasov’s 3rd Russian Army of the West and The Army of the Danube ...



http://www.antiquesatoz.com/habsburg/1812/auscorps.htm

But if I'm not mistaken 
a) it is illegal to use batteries under saddles in horse races (doh)
b) it is illegal (?) to use em to train a horse (guessing)
c) they are pretty much frowned on across the board - good way to screw up a horse and its attitude - except perhaps in abattoirs


----------



## imajica (19 September 2007)

rather than be horrified by the events we should actually find the whole situation amusing


----------



## cuttlefish (19 September 2007)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> That is absurd and extreme.




But tazering someone for talking a bit too long isn't absurd and extreme?




			
				disarray said:
			
		

> silly example.




So who decides the difference between a 'silly example' and a 'reasonable request'.  

Obviously my example was deliberately silly to highlight a point, which is that blind and unquestioning compliance with authority is not actually a social requirement.  

Nobody has yet provided a reasonable explanation as to what law he broke that created the initial requirement for him to be restrained, and funnily enough on the video I couldn't hear it being explained to him by the police either.




> then organise and try to effect change. getting mad at the foot soldier won't do anything except get you busted.




What - organise change - like go to a lecture by a leading politician and try to ask some questions that highlight your viewpoint?  Didn't quite work for this bloke did it?

The fact is he _was_ trying to organise and effect change - he was asking a well structured question in order to highlight a major flaw in the US electoral system and asking John Kerry why he didn't act to impeach Bush.

I personally would have been interested to hear John Kerry's answer. I'm sure a lot of others would have as well. 

I think they refer to it as freedom of speech in the US - the first consitutional   amendment - apparently even more important than the right to bear tazers : (the second amendment).


----------



## imajica (19 September 2007)

you are forgetting the third and fourth amendments

3rd - the right to be ignorant and obnoxious

4th - the right to invade other countries (for the sole purpose of securing oil reserves) and fabricate lies in order to justify your state-sanctioned act of terrorism.

god bless America   hehe


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 September 2007)

Julia said:


> And probably exactly what he was looking for, given the comments from the Uni of Florida student which Garpal quoted.
> 
> And, 2020 Hindsight, you manage to draw quite astonishing conclusions from my earlier comments.  I have not supported the use of a taser.  I simply observed that on the video it appeared to do little to subdue him.
> Further, though, no I do not have empathy for some twit whose main purpose is disruption.




Dear 2020 and wayneL, there are better ways to achieve change against imperialism than the taser turkey attempted with John Kerry.

Read      "The Good Soldier Å vejk and His Fortunes in the World War" , by Jarslav Hasek. 

Although a work of fiction it displays how with single minded dedication, a low IQ and a capacity to soak up military and police maltreatment, one man was able to bring the Austro-Hungarian empire to its knees. Svejk appears to possess similar personal attributes to the taser turkey.

And he didn't need Andy Warhol's five minutes of fame on the tube.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (19 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear 2020 and wayneL, there are better ways to achieve change against imperialism than the taser turkey attempted with John Kerry.
> 
> Read      "The Good Soldier Å vejk and His Fortunes in the World War" , by Jarslav Hasek.
> 
> ...



You and disarray still miss the point. Whether the guy is an idiot or not is totally irrelevant to the use of the taser in these particular circumstances.

The taser has a definite role in policing and are a godsend as a means of restraining someone who is a threat to themselves or others, where the use of a firearm is inappropriate. 

Akin to a slap in the face in the old movies? Ridiculous. Pure fantasy. Real life doesn't work that way. Just try it, you end up in a brawl or under arrest for assault.

Where is the line? They are being used by police as an on the spot punishment rather than their intended use.

Explod is dead right.


----------



## disarray (19 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Akin to a slap in the face in the old movies? Ridiculous. Pure fantasy. Real life doesn't work that way.




you are correct. hence the taser is an effective means of controlling emotionally erratic people.



			
				WayneL said:
			
		

> Where is the line? They are being used by police as an on the spot punishment rather than their intended use.




police abusing powers and tasering people indiscriminately is not on. tasering people who have lost control of their reason is a viable method of control. in this case, the guy had lost it so the taser was employed in an appropriate manner. had he not struggled, pushed security guards, started wailing hysterically, resisted attempts to remove him and above all listened to advice to "stop struggling or we will tase you", then this would not have been an issue.

the onus isn't on security to put up with this ****, the onus is on the individual to not be an out of control idiot. its time focus turned back to individual responsibilities.


----------



## wayneL (19 September 2007)

disarray said:


> you are correct. hence the taser is an effective means of controlling emotionally erratic people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK we are going around in circles here, but clearly, your view is a minority one.

I'm happy about that.

Cheers


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (19 September 2007)

The title should read: *Tasered for resisting arrest.*

I don't agree with the use of the taser in this case, I am sure 5 police could handle it.


----------



## disarray (19 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> OK we are going around in circles here, but clearly, your view is a minority one.




yes the large sample size and representation from a broad cross section of society here at ASF adds a great deal of weight to your argument.



			
				WayneL said:
			
		

> I'm happy about that.




that's great.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (19 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> I personally would have been interested to hear John Kerry's answer. I'm sure a lot of others would have as well.




I think John Kerry was wanting to hear the answer too.


Who was instructing the police though? Maybe there needs to be some questioning there.


----------



## Ageo (19 September 2007)

I think the worst thing they could have done was taser him infront of everyone especially cameras. They should have dragged him outside and if he didnt stop then do what is necessary to restrain him.


----------



## chops_a_must (19 September 2007)

disarray said:


> you are correct. hence the taser is an effective means of controlling emotionally erratic people.




I'll remember to use my taser when talking to a female next time...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> OK we are going around in circles here, but clearly, your view is a minority one.
> 
> I'm happy about that.
> 
> Cheers




I don't agree that the majority of ASF oppose the tasering of this turkey at John Kerry's speech.

Is it possible to have a vote on it?

Garpal


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 September 2007)

ok, Garpal, poll question presumably goes something like this (?) ....

*that people who make loud and emotional, possibly slanted, but otherwise harmless comments of a political nature at a public meeting should be tasered.* 

(This bloke, Peter Phelps, didnt want to shut up either btw - AND far far more objectionable comments than any comments made in the original questions which triggered the police actions in the JK incident)



> Mr Nairn's chief of staff has issued a statement unreservedly withdrawing the comment and saying he regrets any offence.
> 
> He says it was a rhetorical remark that on reflection was clearly inappropriate





But you would presumably say "taser the turkey" ? yes?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/19/2037873.htm



> Nairn faces grilling over chief of staff comments
> Posted Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:03pm AEST
> Updated 11 hours 48 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 September 2007)

BTW, lol - you cannot argue it was his resisting that is the problem because - the police intervention in the first place was unwarranted. 

let's pretend we're playing with kid's building blocks here
without the first one, you cannot build on it to make the second one yes?

and Julia
you might expand on what Kerry did or didn't do to qualify as so ineffectual.  My point is that those police had made up their minds when they marched up to that bloke - nothing that the chairman (presumably not Kerry surely - surely he was guest speaker!?) could have done about it.



Julia said:


> And, 2020 Hindsight, you manage to draw quite astonishing conclusions from my earlier comments.  I have not supported the use of a taser.  I simply observed that on the video it appeared to do little to subdue him.
> Further, though, no I do not have empathy for some twit whose main purpose is disruption.





Julia said:


> Presumably if the police were to use a taser on someone with a vulnerability to muscle spasm et al, they could be sued if significant and lasting harm were to occur?
> 
> Judging by the continued unco-operative behaviour of the bloke making the fuss, the dreaded taser seems to have been less than effective anyway.
> 
> I can understand the police losing patience with prats like this, but they sure as hell didn't get much assistance from the completely ineffectual John Kerry.


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 September 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Julia *
> Presumably if the police were to use a taser on someone with a vulnerability to muscle spasm et al, they could be sued if significant and lasting harm were to occur?



btw, Julia
Does "death" qualify as "significant and lasting" in your books?

ahh that's right - they check with you if you have a heart condition and a miscellany of other conditions (whether or not you know about them ) before they do it - no probs

btw also - the cops completely swarm all over him while tasering him
they're good at that  
the reason they need so many ( who incidentally still couldn't restrain him without taser??) is that they have to cover up the cameras.


----------



## explod (20 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> BTW, lol - you cannot argue it was his resisting that is the problem because - the police intervention in the first place was unwarranted.
> 
> let's pretend we're playing with kid's building blocks here
> without the first one, you cannot build on it to make the second one yes?
> ...




Strongly agree.  In Aus., the mere unwanted touching of a person is either an assult or an arrest, the later requiring the explanation of rights.  The way the police went for this fellow would be wrong here.

Can hardly agree Julia that he was initially disruptive or a twit.  He like many others is incensed at GWB and they way he maintained power.  Just the disinfranchising of voters due to their ethnic descent alone was sufficient to beat John Kerry at the last presidential election apart from other anomolies, not least the bias of the Fed. Court.

One importamt matter that people tend to either forget or not recognise is that most of the best changes that have happenned in society have been because of people protest and revolt.  Like shakeouts in the markets, they are healthy and get us seeing the bigger picture again


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> ok, Garpal, poll question presumably goes something like this (?) ....
> 
> *that people who make loud and emotional, possibly slanted, but otherwise harmless comments of a political nature at a public meeting should be tasered.*
> 
> ...





Questions along the lines of 

_It was reasonable to taser the person questioning John Kerry at the recent Univ of Florida meeting. 

It was not reasonable to taser the person questioning John Kerry at the recent Univ of Florida meeting. 

_

would seem to be more appropriate.

I notice Queensland police are being criticised for the use of tasers at present, so its still a topical issue and a reasonable question to put to ASF members considering the heat it engendered.

Garpal


----------



## drmb (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Questions along the lines of
> 
> _It was reasonable to taser the person questioning John Kerry at the recent Univ of Florida meeting.
> 
> ...




I think the point is not that the SB was questioning Kerry, it was that he wanted to keep on hogging the mic when his time was up, and only after repeated attempts to have him shut up, and go away was he subdued. I vote in favour of the security guys by the way!


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 September 2007)

How about 
"that people like the student at Florida and also Special Minister of State Gary Nairn's chief of staff, Peter Phelps, be tasered when they are difficult at a political meeting. "


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> How about
> "that people like the student at Florida and also Special Minister of State Gary Nairn's chief of staff, Peter Phelps, be tasered when they are difficult at a political meeting. "


----------



## numbercruncher (21 September 2007)

Seems everyones jumping on the new taser fad lately 



> Disturbing video of a woman being repeatedly tasered by a US policeman has raised the issue of the indiscriminate use of the high-voltage weapons for the second time this week.
> 
> In the video, taken from the officer's own squad car camera, an obviously drunk woman is seen writhing in agony as the officer shocks her again and again in a nightclub car park in Warren, Ohio.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=297851


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> How about
> "that people like the student at Florida and also Special Minister of State Gary Nairn's chief of staff, Peter Phelps, be tasered when they are difficult at a political meeting. "




Dear 2020

You and wayneL are a team.

The thread is about the guy at the John Kerry meeting, not about your worldview or political prejudices.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear 2020
> 
> You and wayneL are a team.
> 
> ...



But your world view and political prejudices are OK, right?

BTW, what do you think my world view is, and what are my political prejudices?


----------



## cuttlefish (21 September 2007)

Looking at these video's - particularly the one of the drunk woman - there's no difference between the use of a taser and the use of a baton.  The use of a weapon on a restrained and defenceless person is the ultimate form of gutlessness, whether it be a drunk woman, or a young student being restrained by four police officers.

I don't understand why anyone would support that sort of behaviour.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> But your world view and political prejudices are OK, right?
> 
> BTW, what do you think my world view is, and what are my political prejudices?




Dear wayneL

Read your posts.

Threads are threads, sometimes they go west. I think this one has.

Lets have a sensible vote.

Over and out.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear wayneL
> 
> Read your posts.
> 
> ...



Garp,

Your answer speaks volumes; in other words, NFI.

Cheers


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 September 2007)

Garpal,
praps you'll see some logic in explod's opinion.
he (unlike you or me or wayne or drmb) has been a policeman after all.

do you think his opinion is probably more important and unbiased (and relevant and educated) than yours and/or drmb's and/or Julias, etc

especially as you wish to do a poll exclusively on this person, (as against some CONSIDERABLY more obnoxious ******** in Queanbeyan) , this student in Florida whom you happily label a "twit" or a "turkey" etc. (Florida being the home of the smiling Bush brothers)

How much do you know about this meeting?
who was invited? were students encouraged to attend?
were they ENCOURAGED perhaps to ask questions?

and DRMB - you seem happy to let even SECURITY use tasers!!
sheesh
surely they have to be police at least?

Dear Garpal and drmb..
please advise your opinion of Peter Phelps, by the way.


----------



## cuttlefish (21 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:
			
		

> Looking at these video's - particularly the one of the drunk woman - there's no difference between the use of a taser and the use of a baton. The use of a weapon on a restrained and defenceless person is the ultimate form of gutlessness, whether it be a drunk woman, or a young student being restrained by four police officers.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would support that sort of behaviour.




perhaps the poll question could read:

"Do you support the use of a tazer as a weapon against a 21 year old student that is being restrained by four police?"


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> , (as against some CONSIDERABLY more obnoxious ******** in Queanbeyan) ,.....
> 
> Dear Garpal and drmb..
> please advise your opinion of Peter Phelps, by the way.



an obnoxious d.head who has since had to unreservedly withdraw his comments at risk of 
a) him losing his job, and 
b) his boss losing Eden-Monaro 

and everyone knows "he who loses Eden-Monaro loses the election" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Eden-Monaro


> Since 1972 it has always been held by the government of the day, and it is thus regarded as a "bellwether seat".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Garpal,
> praps you'll see some logic in explod's opinion.
> he (unlike you or me or wayne or drmb) has been a policeman after all.
> 
> ...




Dear 2020,

I decided I'd stay out of this thread because it has really gotten out of hand.

But I'm always willing to change my mind. 

For what its worth I think Phelps is a turkey. Further if he had disrupted the meeting and disobeyed the police as "the Florida turkey" did, a jolt from a taser might have brought him back to earth. His statements were nasty and completely out of order.

By the way, if wayneL is about,  NFI is a rather uncouth way to address a fellow forum member. 

I was unaware of what it meant until I googled it. 

It, I believe stands for "no f***ing idea" and is quite derogatory and deserving of a ticket from our moderator.

Garpal


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> For what its worth I think Phelps is a turkey. Further if he had disrupted the meeting and disobeyed the police as "the Florida turkey" did, a jolt from a taser might have brought him back to earth. His statements were nasty and completely out of order.



see Garpal
like you, I find Phelps a complete moron - 
but 
unlike you, I detest the idea that he would be tasered for it, complete with a risk (ANY RISK) to his life. 

He's just another deluded political staffer - (ok seriously rude into the bargain) - but not a hanging offence 
especially not in a HEALTHY democracy..

which is where AUS differs from USA for instance.


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear 2020,
> 
> I decided I'd stay out of this thread because it has really gotten out of hand.
> 
> ...



Garp

You are dodging the discussion, I asked you a question as to what you thought my views are, because you intimated that I was promoting said views. Yet, you have no (yes ****ing) idea what they are. In this way you have sought to disrespect my opinion by building a disingenuous straw man argument.

I may be more "up front" than you, but you on the other hand have been following me around the forum and (unsuccessfully) tried to discredit me on several occasions. You seem to be bearing a grudge against me for having to moderate you in the past.

By trying to take the high moral ground you make yourself look a fool. It is OK for uniformed thugs to use high voltage against an already restrained person, yet feign indignation at an acronym. A monumental dissonance of values which rather exposes a poisonous objective.

It's time to get over it and debate on the true merits of the discussion rather than on some puerile vendetta.

Time to move on Garpal.


----------



## numbercruncher (21 September 2007)

"You where spost to fall forwards Doofus"


Wow these Guys love Tasering so much that they even get practice in back at the office !  Bit of a collection of Tasering pics here

http://eyeball-series.org/taser/taser-eyeball.htm



Maybe its the sport of the future, an upgrade to paintball ? Got a pesky workmate, invite them out for a staff bonding session at the Taser range !


Dont taser me Bro


----------



## disarray (21 September 2007)

1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
2. security asks said student to please stfu
3. student gets agitated, raises voice several octaves, begins to rant. loss of emotional control becomes evident.
4. discussion moderators cut microphone.
5. security moves in and asks student to please leave.
6. student arcs up, becomes highly irrational, pushes security, starts ranting, resists attempts made by moderators to peacefully remove him from the scene.
7. student gets taken down by security for causing a ruckus. continues to struggle.
8. student, in a highly agitated state and having lost control of his reason continues to struggle, despite repeated warnings not to do so.
9. student is tasered to end the confrontation.

points 6 and 8 are why this idiot got zapped. any time a person reaches point 6 with authority then they are at risk of being subdued. by point 8 it is a foregone conclusion. if you lose control of your reason and become irrational then you become a serious threat. arresting officers are obliged to then defend themselves and others by any means necessary. if its breaking the guys arms to get him cuffed, clubbing him over the head with a baton or zapping him with 20k volts its much of a muchness.

now if peter phelps was ranting and raving at a meeting that is one thing. if however he assaulted security, resisted arrest, lost control of his reason and refused to comply with the wishes of the moderators of the event then it is well within the rights of the authority to zap him. what's the problem?



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> building a disingenuous straw man argument




you use this line in just about every general thread.



			
				Inigo Montoya said:
			
		

> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

disarray said:


> you use this line far too often.



I use it whenever the straw man argument is used. It is a common tactic, hence it will be used often. Get over it.


----------



## disarray (21 September 2007)

learn what a straw man argument is before you keep using your favourite line


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

disarray said:


> learn what a straw man argument is before you keep using your favourite line



...and? You don't think it is? I do.

Garpal made representations that I had a political agenda without me having made those representations in order to disparage. That is a straw man argument. 

Read your links before using them to destroy your own point.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> ...and? You don't think it is? I do.
> 
> Garpal made representations that I had a political agenda without me having made those representations in order to disparage. That is a straw man argument.
> 
> Read your links before using them to destroy your own point.





Dear wayneL,

I thought you had closed this thread.

Is it open again or not??

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear wayneL,
> 
> I thought you had closed this thread.
> 
> ...



It's open, but let's stay on topic Ok.


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2007)

To keep this thread on track, I will be removing off topic posts.

Thanks


----------



## cuttlefish (21 September 2007)

disarray said:
			
		

> learn what a straw man argument is before you keep using your favourite line




Definitely looks like a straw man argument to me.  The topic is about whether a student should be tazered.  

Garpal has shown his superior intellect by talking about some bloke called Svejk.  Apparently standing up to authority is ok if you're a czech soldier. Relevence to the topic at hand is a bit unclear.

Nobody has responded with a valid reason as to why the student was restrained in the first place (dissarray has at least attempted to present a chronology but failed to explain why the police actually restrained the gentleman in the first place - if 'not shutting tfu' is a valid reason then about 80% of the population should probably be in jail.).

Its pretty simple - instead of inventing clever names to ridicule the victim - explain why you think this bloke should have been restrained - and then once he was restrained why was he tazered?


----------



## insider (21 September 2007)

I've been electrocuted and let me tell you I'd prefer a punch in the face...

:twak::horse::burn::whip:kebab 

One of these things is not like the other
One of these things doesn't belong


----------



## explod (21 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> Definitely looks like a straw man argument to me.  The topic is about whether a student should be tazered.
> 
> Garpal has shown his superior intellect by talking about some bloke called Svejk.  Apparently standing up to authority is ok if you're a czech soldier. Relevence to the topic at hand is a bit unclear.
> 
> ...




Yep, you are onto the issue here.  I have stayed out of the argument for the reason I may have a bias, as being an excop I am super critical of police behaviour.

I have gone over the opening of the video repeatedly and it starts,  'The agitator appears to ask a question, then stops/or pauses if you like, looking towards Kerry for an answer, at this point he raises his papers and turns towards the police who (not audible) must have made a comment to him. '

To this point everything is reasonable.   The only explanation I can deduce is that in the question there was something said that the police did not like, they obviously said something, the youth was taken by surprise and on turning towards them they advanced and in touching him an arrest was underway.  Only at this point did the youth arc up.

We can only conclude without further information that the youth had said something which was unlawful.

On what basis (how) do we catigorise this youth as a twit up to the point at which he raises his papers and the police advance????


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2007)

explod said:


> Yep, you are onto the issue here.  I have stayed out of the argument for the reason I may have a bias, as being an excop I am super critical of police behaviour.
> 
> I have gone over the opening of the video repeatedly and it starts,  'The agitator appears to ask a question, then stops/or pauses if you like, looking towards Kerry for an answer, at this point he raises his papers and turns towards the police who (not audible) must have made a comment to him. '
> 
> ...




I agree.

Garpal


----------



## chops_a_must (22 September 2007)

I guess one of the reasons why this has got so much attention has been the recent use of Tasers in US colleges.

There is a lot of background to this that I'm not sure has been provided, and as one of the more rational arguers for an over reaction in this instance, I'l try to give it.

Over the last 12-18 months there has been 4 or 5 controversial cases where tasers have been used by security guards and police officers on campus. Even if this guy was acting like a twit, there has been a huge reaction to perceived brutality on campus from within the student populace. One such occassion was an UCLA student who was restrained and tasered repeatedly for 5 minutes or so in the library in front of a huge crowd, who were recording. It just happened to be that this person was of middle eastern ethnic descent.

So there is quite a large level of sentiment on the various campuses about the practices of the security guards. And from a distance, it's important to realise that this may just be the tipping point where the students finally react en masse. Especially when on multiple occassions in recent time, the tasers have been used in very marginal cases... I guess the fear resulting is that the students have, is of simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Because they feel they could get zapped for going about normal student behaviour...

Cheers.


----------



## cuttlefish (22 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I agree.
> 
> Garpal





With what?

I just watched the video again (the first in the three that kimosabi posted: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1190085332
).

I can't see why he was restrained.  The whole incident is completely bizarre. Its even odd that people are just sitting/standing around watching it without reacting.  Is this just considered normal in the US? Whats going on?


----------



## explod (22 September 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I guess one of the reasons why this has got so much attention has been the recent use of Tasers in US colleges.
> 
> There is a lot of background to this that I'm not sure has been provided, and as one of the more rational arguers for an over reaction in this instance, I'l try to give it.
> 
> ...




Agree.  Of course my interest is the use of, not the type of weapon.  It is Governing Authorities that authorise and provide the weapons, the police are the statutory instrument that pulls the trigger if you like.  The action again should be controlled by the rule of the legislation also.

In my learning the world was a peaceful place when the English Bobby carried no more than a rubber baton.   There is a direct correlation between the issue of more potent instruments to police and the taking up of arms by the criminal sector.  There is a more disturbing correlation and that is that as police have been issued with more sophisiticated (so called) defense/control equipment so too has their aggression towards the public.

Train a soldier to carry a gun and he will soon have no qualms at all about using it.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

explod said:


> In my learning the world was a peaceful place when the English Bobby carried no more than a rubber baton.   There is a direct correlation between the issue of more potent instruments to police and the taking up of arms by the criminal sector.  There is a more disturbing correlation and that is that as police have been issued with more sophisiticated (so called) defense/control equipment so too has their aggression towards the public.
> 
> Train a soldier to carry a gun and he will soon have no qualms at all about using it.



spot on explod !

in exactly the same way that RAMSI have been so effective in the Solomons - disarming people whilst not carrying weapons themselves .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands

the US police / authorities / mentality could never have come close to achieving what we've done in a million years of bashing / tasering / weaponry etc


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> spot on explod !
> 
> in exactly the same way that RAMSI have been so effective in the Solomons - disarming people whilst not carrying weaons themselves .
> 
> ...




I don't agree with you.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (22 September 2007)

Here's another one. A woman was tased when already on the ground and restrained, (early part of video). 



Opinion of whether police actions were justified or not, is likely to be divided on ideological lines again, but the use of the taser was clearly over the top to be used on a woman already on the ground.


----------



## drmb (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> How about
> "that people like the student at Florida and also Special Minister of State Gary Nairn's chief of staff, Peter Phelps, be tasered when they are difficult at a political meeting. "




Not sure if you have seen the full story 20/20, but you seem to keep misunderstanding. Phelps was not in the same league as the SB in question. 

Disarrray sums up nicely - 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
2. security asks said student to please stfu
3. student gets agitated, raises voice several octaves, begins to rant. loss of emotional control becomes evident.
4. discussion moderators cut microphone.
5. security moves in and asks student to please leave.
6. student arcs up, becomes highly irrational, pushes security, starts ranting, resists attempts made by moderators to peacefully remove him from the scene.
7. student gets taken down by security for causing a ruckus. continues to struggle.
8. student, in a highly agitated state and having lost control of his reason continues to struggle, despite repeated warnings not to do so.
9. student is tasered to end the confrontation.

How is Phelps actions anything like the above? I have worked in the US, if you get to 6, 7, or 8 above you are in serious danger of having strong action taken against you.


----------



## wayneL (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Not sure if you have seen the full story 220/20, but you seem to keep misunderstanding. Phelps was not in the same league as the SB in question.
> 
> Disarrray sums up nicely - 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
> 2. security asks said student to please stfu
> ...



But 4 policemen/women, one of whom would be at least 120kg couldn't do that without a taser when they already had him on the ground? That's the issue here, was the taser appropriate in the circumstances? 

What would they have done before tasers? They would have cuffed him, picked him up bodily, and frogmarched him out without any risk to themselves. That is the point, the officers were at no risk when the taser was used.


----------



## Sean K (22 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> What would they have done before tasers? They would have cuffed him, picked him up bodily, and frogmarched him out without any risk to themselves. That is the point, the officers were at no risk when the taser was used.



Just to throw up another possibility...

In the past, perhaps fisticuffs were used more liberally to subdue defaulters? I imagine that before television, and mobile phone cams etc, fists were quite a source of control for the constabulary. Unfortunately now (or fortunately depending on what side of the political scale you stand on) blood scattered on the screen is not good PR. Right to the TOP!

So, is the tazar, or pepper spray, or CS gas, etc, worse than a broken jaw, or eye socket, pre TV? 

Maybe I'm overestimating media influence on policing practices...


----------



## wayneL (22 September 2007)

kennas said:


> Just to throw up another possibility...
> 
> In the past, perhaps fisticuffs were used more liberally to subdue defaulters? I imagine that before television, and mobile phone cams etc, fists were quite a source of control for the constabulary. Unfortunately now (or fortunately depending on what side of the political scale you stand on) blood scattered on the screen is not good PR. Right to the TOP!
> 
> ...




Well, I can only go by by families experiences there. The truly bad guys got roughed up for sure, but your average Joe who got a bit out of control, would be restrained with grappling techniques. (assuming no weapons are involved, then all bets are off)

Broken heads would result in an uproar. 

The coppers in the UK do quite fine with a truncheon and handcuffs in most instances.

There was no reason this guy should have ended up with more than a couple of bruises and scrapes, sans the taser. They had him. A simple wrist lock would have had him like a puppy dog.

FWIW here is a justified usage: 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5zQ0_d-BFM4

Copper was by himself and having difficulty controlling the guy. The situation was becoming potentially dangerous. Had he been able to cuff him there would never have been a need for the taser.

Quite different.


----------



## Sean K (22 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> A simple wrist lock would have had him like a puppy dog.



Yep, absolutely. I've had some minimal training in controlling people through wrist manipuation (Taekwondo) and I have to say, it works a treat. Surely these police officers should be trained in those techniques. Perhaps they've gone away from that, for the more standoffish approach so they are not in a position to be harmed themselves. ie, stand back and shoot the person... Personally, I think if you're in a position where you have to touch, or be touched, by an offender, you're too close. Perhaps my military background is clouding my perception. I'd prefer to be able to control someone from 300m away....


----------



## drmb (22 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> .... assuming no weapons are involved, then all bets are off



wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol.  You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> 1. 20/20 - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you?
> 2. Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioneed in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily avaialble to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will seel you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorada where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapns, some of which did not need a cooling ooff period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or pistol.  You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapns, sligshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states.
> 3. The US Consititution allows people to bear arms! The officers training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed
> 4. Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a trunceon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser.
> ...



1. drmb - sure I've been there , many times - including conferences in Texas etc - worked with many Americans for a couple of years - 

BUT I don't think YOU've ever watched Fahrenheit 9/11. lol - watch it. Hopefully that is what "Americans of the future" are thinking.  ( or would you prefer the America of the future to be George Bush's style of America).  

2. Sure I noticed you said that weapons etc are available over the counter.
I bought shanghais for the kids in a store like Woolworths - right beside the hair shampoo or some such !! , and the last thing we did as a family before catching a flight home from San Fran was to go down to the beach and shoot shanghai shots at the rocks at sunset (cheaper than going to Macdonalds).  Sure I know it's legal over there.

3. they can bear arms - we can't - 
they should be more like us - we shouldn't be more like them 

btw as I mentioned elsewhere - I used to take the pay to an Army base - I was a nasho officer - was given a pistol and bullets in case of violent holdup.   It would be a security breach to tell yuo if I ever put the bullets in the bludy thing.  

4. my idea is not a trucheon to the head.  My idea is to encourage a discussion - and then let Kerry answer as he was just about to do.

5. peacemakers, RAMSI etc - I was agreeing with explod - but no probs - lemme explain - these are the ways to win hearts and minds - NOT with rifles - and bombs.  USA will NEVER win hearts and minds with bombs... period.  And , whether the yanks admit it or not - our RAMSI police in Solomons, and our soldiers in Timor who used massive restraint - were 3000% more effective than the USA would have been.

6. pack a sad?? like this SOB?? deserves taser?? - 

summary drmb is as follows:-
Your summary was based on disarrays summary.
Your summary applies to a police state
Mine applies to a healthy democracy.

btw - I'll post some observations "under separate post"


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

> summary of summaries :-
> 4. why did the recess bell ring 5 minutes early, and
> 5. ........what's happened to Smithy??" [/B]




If you watch the first youtube (post #1 by Brad) and also the first of Kim’s videos – you can dig out the following observations…..
 University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum
and Kims first link ... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1190085332

1. student goes to forum for a question and answer session - he holds the microphone, implying he has been given the floor – whilstever he has the microhone - 
2. behind him there are  two uniformed police plus a man in suit (presumably NOT Steve Orlando since Orlando says “he apparently asked several questions – implying he wasn’t sure and/or wasn’t there).  They  are packed around the back of this guy (why?) 
3. asks multiple questions including why didn’t JK contest the 2004 presidential election, which he lost to President Bush, and why there had been no moves to impeach Mr Bush
4. the first youtube attached to SMH article starts with him finishing that question with
“(why) didn’t you impeach Bush right?”
5. (07s in the timeline – see photo)–  *AT THAT VERY TRIGGER, (mention of Bush) all three (the two police plus the bloke behind them) look to their left – this fellow behind seems to be close to a decision *
6. he continues, unaware that using the name Bush again will get him into deep trouble
“also… were you a member of stolen groved(?) college as Bush ?”
7. (10s in the timeline – see photo)–  *AT THAT VERY TRIGGER AGAIN, (second mention of Bush) policewoman looks to her left again – so does the bloke behind*
8. (10s in the timeline – see third photo. SW)–  *the bloke behind indicates by hand signal across his own throat that the student is to be silenced.  * 
9. this bloke in suit has decided he’s “not allowed to say these things”. He steps back to be out of the action.
10. “……were you in the same secret society ?”
11. he turns to face the police behind him - plus a student (friend?) who is holding a video camera – he turns voluntarily to police – reasons for his turning voluntarily unknown 
12. (14s in the timeline – see photos)  Police move forward. CONCURRENTLY WITH that Kerry is calmly saying -  “OK that’s all right - let me answer those questions”. Kerry making it perfectly clear he had no problem with that.  
13. “excuse me are you arresting me”
“wo wo wo wo is anybody watching this”

men in background are heard to say despairingly  '' oh noooo" 

the rest is history....

14. ok - they lead him to the door
15. everyone seems to be really surprised , many ask "what did he do !!??" 
16. he tries to break free instead of going through the door
17. they get him down to cuff him
18.  Kerry is heard to say "hey officers... can we.....hey folks .... hey folks... I think if everybody just .... calms down.."
19. he calls out “don’t taser me”
20. police response ?  ....... TASER!!
21. girls scream "why are you doing that !!"
22. police finish cuffing, drag him out - march out as if rear guard action for a 5 man SAS team evacuating a CONTACT.



SUMMARY and MISC COMMENTS:-
so you’d have to agree with SMH Summary :- “A University of Florida student was Tasered and arrested when he tried to speak at a forum with US Senator John Kerry during a question and answer session” – but you could add

*“the decision to evict him was almost made when he mentioned Bush’s name at the 07s mark – then sealed at the 10s mark”*

question... are the microphones are so heavy it takes three of them to carry it from one questioner to the next?

"He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.  
He "apparently" wasn't there.  Why is it that the Spokeperson always has the luxury of claiming - if later found to be wrong - that he was misinformed... 
 - maybe that should read :-
"He apparently ?? [ALLEGEDLY] asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was [ALLEGEDLY] asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.


HERE's THE REAL SUMMARY - TOLD AS A PARABLE !!


> George Bush visits Bourke school whilst touring Western NSW..
> "OK children" says the teacher - "aren't we lucky to have President Bush here with us today well, are there any little questions you'd like to ASK President Bush?"
> 
> pregnant pause, Smithy's hand shoots up.
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol.  You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!




Dear drmb,

I couldn't agree more. 

Garpal


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

> 8. (10s in the timeline – see third photo. SW)–  *the bloke behind indicates by hand signal across his own throat that the student is to be silenced.  *
> 9. this bloke in suit has decided he’s “not allowed to say these things”. He steps back to be out of the action.
> 10. “……were you in the same secret society ?”




10A. ???  SMH article.... "He had used his allotted time. His microphone *was cut off then he became upset*."



> 11. he turns to face the police behind him - plus a student (friend?) who is holding a video camera – he turns voluntarily to police – reasons for his turning voluntarily unknown
> 12. (14s in the timeline – see photos)  Police move forward. CONCURRENTLY WITH that Kerry is calmly saying -  “OK that’s all right - let me answer those questions”. Kerry making it perfectly clear he had no problem with that.




See , their story doesn't ring true. 
They made the decision to evict him *behind his back *.
they cannot pretend otherwise.
It was a complete surprise to him as it was to Kerry, who was starting to quietly answer his question. 

I contend that it was not the case that "He became upset when microphone was turned off -  hence (police moved in)" - he was escorted etc.  I contend that's a load of bureacratic heavy handed bull**** that it clearly an attempt to rewrite history on their part. 

SMH :- "While as many as four police officers tried to remove Meyer from the forum, he yelled for help and asked "What did I do?"

I'd also ask "What did he do???  
PS anyone who doesn't know or doesn't respect or doesn't love the rules of a TRUE democracy needn't bother criticising - it's probably going over your head anyway. 

no doubt the supporters of heavy handed US reactionary taser-wielding cops and/or security guards will say it's great stuff -  - Down with people asking questions of politicians!!  BRING ON THE BUREAUCRATIC BIFF!!!  sheesh !!!


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> 10A. ???  SMH article.... "He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off then he became upset."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dear 2020,

I don't agree with you. 

Garpal


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmb]first draft :- 2020 - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you?
second draft :- wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you?
 2020 ??? WayneL??? - [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Garpal Gumnut said:


> Dear drmb,
> I couldn't agree more.
> Garpal



hey drmb - you sure you know who has and hasn't been to USA lol?
this is getting confusing . 

Garpal - I couldn't agree more.

PS . someone hasn't been to the USA - or if they have they haven't bothered to open their bludy eyes on what's happening there (and on youtubes like this)


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

see here's another untruth or spin-doctored attempt at rewriting history of this incident ...



> "He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.




truth appears to be that he had finished asking his questions, and was about to leave the microphone.   

anyone think otherwise?  that we wasn't finished asking questions?

so all these statements that he wouldn't shut up (stfu whatever) are just wrong.   KERRY WAS ABOUT TO ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS for chrissake.!!!  That's what the youtube shows,   simple as that !!

He was escorted out for asking questions about Bush - simple as that .


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

final quick comment for now
that man behind that camera ( Brad's youtube) was working for the authorities.


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## cuttlefish (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> truth appears to be that he had finished asking his questions, and was about to leave the microphone.
> 
> anyone think otherwise?  that we wasn't finished asking questions?




yeah I agree - when the mike got cut off he made a small comment about being cut off and seemed about to walk away.  The police woman grabbed him for no reason that I can see.  It would be interesting to hear what the police woman was saying to him in one of the video's when he said "I'm not done yet, I've got two more questions".  I keep looking for some incident that justifies the initial restraint but can't see one.


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> ....  The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser.




(I've already denied any suggestion that I like truncheons -  at least excessive use of etc - it was presumably Garpal maybe?) 
but question then is ..
does a hit over the head have a permanent effect on your ability to reason...



Garpal Gumnut said:


> They didn't have tasers in my day. But have been hit by a truncheon once on the head, ( no jokes) and about the body, also kicked. Humiliated yes. Denied free speech in public yes. This nutter denied everyone else a go. So he deserved what he got. He 's a baby and should just move on. Garpal




PS good to see some US commentators ( Olbermann - you bludy champion ) can see the wood for the trees....
 The Brawny and Manly Obnoxious Bill O Reilly
 OLBERMANN CHALLENGES BILL O'REILLY TO GET TASERED *AGAIN*

note that there are in the end 6 cops !! what did I say about crowding out the cameras


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

PS There's a photo back there (last post) where Kerry is smiling , but Hillary Clinton is not..

here's another theory..
that It's out of context. (i.e. that photo on Bill O'Reilly's Fox News.) 
It's been taken from a few seconds before ...viz:-

In the first youtube in previous post, you'll hear this student ask..

starts off with the disenfranchisement of voters matter. 
then...   

2 more questions !!

1. "Why not impeach Bush now!?? ......
before he can invade Iran!
Clinton was impeached !! over what?? - over a blow job!!:eek3:
Why not impeach Bush now over Iraq??"  

THAT's when that photo was taken imo . 

Incidentally the second question is as follows:-
2. were you a member of Skull and Bones at college withBush?
are you in the same secret society?

Kerry: "that's allright - lemme answer that"- (concurrent with arrest as already noted). 

That adds up to two questions yes? 
( Like  (doh)  he'd finished asking questions yes?)

Ahh you gotta love US politics lol.


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## wayneL (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol.  You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!



I come from the US!!!!!!!!!


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## drmb (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> hey drmb - you sure you know who has and hasn't been to USA lol? this is getting confusing .



Yes, made a mistake with the quote! Seems Wayne does come from the US so should know that you don't mess around with security, sheriffs, police, etc who tell you to do something!

It seems there are 2 opposing camps – those who have no problems with shoulder-chip-malcontents in the US who cannot understand simple commands being  tazed (me), and whoosssy-wimpy idealists who think we can disarm the world to live in peace and democratic harmony. Put me in the first group although it would be nice to have the first but goes against all recorded history.

Here for the wide eyed Doris Days is what I have learned in life starting in central Africa, and living, working, surviving and learning on 5 continents, including missions for UN, MSF, etc 

Don’t grab poles coming through the window at night (they’ll be trying to lift your pants and wallets etc) with your bare hands, they tape razor blades on so when they pul back you’ll be left with severed arteries (Rhodesia)

Teach kids how to safely handle a firearm before age of 10, and to be able to load and unload it in the dark, left and right handed, and to know where the safety is, and keep a spare magazine taped to it (Kenya)

In North Korea the 2 escorts assigned to you are there to make sure you are safe at all times – no need to worry about anything except getting your exit visa.

Don’t take photographs of traffic street scenes in Lagos, and make sure you pay your bodyguards retrospectively, with a fully disclosed very good bonus payment, and payed only when you get back home. 

In the USA, obey any command of any officer with a badge instantly without arguing, within a second, or risk being tazed, or pepper sprayed. You can survive a Taser but probably not a Glock, Uzi, or Smith and Wesson.

Simple!


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## wayneL (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Yes, made a mistake with the quote! Seems Wayne does come from the US so should know that you don't mess around with security, sheriffs, police, etc who tell you to do something!
> 
> It seems there are 2 opposing camps – those who have no problems with shoulder-chip-malcontents in the US who cannot understand simple commands being  tazed (me), and whoosssy-wimpy idealists who think we can disarm the world to live in peace and democratic harmony. Put me in the first group although it would be nice to have the first but goes against all recorded history.
> 
> ...



No it's not that simple. 

The weakness of your argument is apparent in the use of non-sequitur and disparaging descriptions of those with whom you disagree (whoosssy-wimpy etc). I note folks only use these and other logical fallacies in the absence of any actual logic. 

Comparisons with central Africa are irrelevant to 1st world society. Have a look at the videos posted by 2020 in this thread ==>> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8320

What Kennedy describes is the America I used to be proud of. It still had faults, but its ideals were sound. What we have now is a creeping fascism that is getting ominously close to that dark period last century and America has lost its way. This taser incident is symptomatic of that.

Now, we would all appreciate it if you would leave the _ad hominem_ BS out of any subsequent posts. Replace with relevant logic.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 September 2007)

Dear wayneL,

I don't agree with you.

Garpal


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## drmb (22 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> No it's not that simple. The weakness of your argument is apparent in the use of non-sequitur and disparaging descriptions of those with whom you disagree (whoosssy-wimpy etc). I note folks only use these and other logical fallacies in the absence of any actual logic.



It's not that simple, just as you say. The disparaging descriptions were meant to be so obvious as too be self-depreciating, maybe too subtle for some. 

Whatever the US that you remember is as long gone as the Africa I remember and grew up in. All the world has changed and without a doubt all has got harsher.

After looking at the videos I remain unconvinced that the SB in the question was unfarily delt with, given the key note speakers present, the security, and the US position that anybody can bear arms, and is treated accordingly. It is best if you are in the US as I am 4-5 times a year to remember this and act accordingly!


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmn and garpal 
try either of the first two youtubes
This is how REAL PEOPLE should react ok ?!?
whether American , Australian , bludy Eskimo, or Swahili. 
 U of F student gets tasered for having guts and a voice!

 Andrew Meyer the American Hero - Sue John Kerry & the Cops

  Miami student tasered for asking questions- full story!!!



> Florida Police Taser, Arrest Student at Kerry Lecture
> Police at the University of Florida are being accused of censorship and excessive force after tasering a student at a lecture by Democratic Senator John Kerry. Twenty-one year old journalism major Andrew Meyer was apprehended as he tried to ask Kerry about African American disenfranchisement in the 2004 presidential elections. Meyer was clutching a copy of the investigative journalist Greg Palast's book "Armed Madhouse." In full view of a packed hall, police officers cut off Meyer's microphone, removed him from the room, and shocked him with a stun-gun. Meyer was later arrested and charged with resisting arrest and disturbing the peace. He was released Tuesday morning after spending the night in jail. Hours later, some three hundred University of Florida students marched on campus in protest




 Jimmy Kimmel talks about tasered kid at John Kerry Event

 Jewish Police Beatup Andrew Meier, John Kerry, Skull & Bones
USA will always bring a smile to civilised people’s faces when they claim to be “home of the free”. and/or “home of the brave” for that matter

 Andrew Meyer taser Ucla student tasered Woman in wheelchair 
"we are giving up the first amendment"

 Why Student Andrew Meyer Was Tasered

 Re: Re: UF Student tasered at John Kerry Speech

 Re: Warren Police Officer Tasers Handcuffed Woman Multiple T
One of the problems with tasers is that it is becoming a crutch for untrained and out of shape officers who couldn't do their job w/o a taser

This last one doesn't have tasers - but sure as hell illustrates unfit cop vs kids -  with skateboards 
“happy go-skateboarding day dude”
 police brutality - go skateboarding day: cop vs skaters


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## explod (22 September 2007)

Bill Gates is giving all of his fortune, together with a lot also from Warren Buffet to relieve poverty and aid education in the third world.   The money wasted on Iraq could have solved the alternative fuel problem with money left over to also attack the lack of education.

I am not against religions but if more money went to helping poorer countries in education then the religious teachings would be less potent.  If polititians were more from the social science faculties instead of legal they would appreciate more the value of education for itself and as the key to individuals being able to make better choices for themselves thier families, the community and ultimately the influences on Government.

We need to support the Bobby Kennedy's the Bill Gore's, et al adinfanitum and continue to abhor the actions of moronic regimes and thier cops and work out ways to make stands against them.   The hero's are in fact the so called "twits" who ask and question the actions of GWB as in the video heading this thread. 

Just going along with the status quo and supporting the cops is the same as the famous placard at GWB's last election campaign "f..k the poor".  If we keep going the way we are now the poor could soon be part of your family.  The poor  is the disadvantaged third world and that is why they have to virtually eat each other to keep thier heads above water.

Some moorons contributing to this thread need to take stock and have a good think about where the world is going.


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## drmb (22 September 2007)

explod said:


> Some moorons contributing to this thread need to take stock and have a good think about where the world is going.



See above from wayne "The weakness of your argument is apparent in the use of non-sequitur and disparaging descriptions of those with whom you disagree (whoosssy-wimpy etc). I note folks only use these and other logical fallacies in the absence of any actual logic." So am I a "Maroon"? I am semi-retired now, but still work as a consultant for UNICEF, MSF, UNAIDS, UNIDO, UNFPA and other UN agencies. For the last 7 years I have done med and vaccine project work in Bangladesh, North Korea, Nepal, India, Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Cyprus, Cuba, Costa Rica, Oman, Iran, Nigeria, Egypt, Vietnam, China, Taiwan, Bosnia, Puerto Rica, Mexico, and yes the US and Canada, as well as other countries I forget!! 

I have done the advanced security training courses required and think I know how to survive in these countries. 

I know the problems are hugely complicated and not easily solved, and will not be solved by abolishing the Taser. 

My point is mainly this, if you are in any of these countries you should be familiar with the local conditions. In the US, if you do not comply with police officers' directions quickly you are likely to get tasered. This has nothing to do with world poverty, or whether or not the US is a police state. It is a simple fact, and it will not change if a Democrat or Republican is elected next to the White House.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> See above from wayne "The weakness of your argument is apparent in the use of non-sequitur and disparaging descriptions of those with whom you disagree (whoosssy-wimpy etc). I note folks only use these and other logical fallacies in the absence of any actual logic." So am I a "Maroon"? I am semi-retired now, but still work as a consultant for UNICEF, MSF, UNAIDS, UNIDO, UNFPA and other UN agencies. For the last 7 years I have done med and vaccine project work in Bangladesh, North Korea, Nepal, India, Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Cyprus, Cuba, Costa Rica, Oman, Iran, Nigeria, Egypt, Vietnam, China, Taiwan, Bosnia, Puerto Rica, Mexico, and yes the US and Canada, as well as other countries I forget!!
> 
> I have done the advanced security training courses required and think I know how to survive in these countries.
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree more drmb

Very eloquently put.

Garpal


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## explod (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> See above from wayne "The weakness of your argument is apparent in the use of non-sequitur and disparaging descriptions of those with whom you disagree (whoosssy-wimpy etc). I note folks only use these and other logical fallacies in the absence of any actual logic." So am I a "Maroon"? I am semi-retired now, but still work as a consultant for UNICEF, MSF, UNAIDS, UNIDO, UNFPA and other UN agencies. For the last 7 years I have done med and vaccine project work in Bangladesh, North Korea, Nepal, India, Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Cyprus, Cuba, Costa Rica, Oman, Iran, Nigeria, Egypt, Vietnam, China, Taiwan, Bosnia, Puerto Rica, Mexico, and yes the US and Canada, as well as other countries I forget!!
> 
> I have done the advanced security training courses required and think I know how to survive in these countries.
> 
> ...




Beg to differ, if the larger wealthy countries were to set better examples, stop dropping bombs and thoroughly marginalise the rogue regimes (instead of supplying arms throughthe back door), encourage and reward good and fair government towards equal opportunity the world in a generation or two would improve.

Of course what we are both trying to argue is impossible.  I give up that.

We need to drop condoms from helicopters and spread a desease that makes most of us sterile.   Nostridarmus (spelling??) was said to be marvellous. He was just good at multiplication and new that one way or another the number of people on the planet from the year 2000 would overwhelm it.


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## wayneL (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I know the problems are hugely complicated and not easily solved, and will not be solved *by abolishing the Taser*.
> 
> My point is mainly this, if you are in any of these countries you should be familiar with the local conditions. In the US, if you do not comply with police officers' directions quickly you are likely to get tasered. This has nothing to do with world poverty, or whether or not the US is a police state. It is a simple fact, and it will not change if a Democrat or Republican is elected next to the White House.



I think you've completely missed the point, judging by these comments.

How the hell did "taser was inappropriate in this case" turn into "taser should be abolished"? Talk about.... ohh see my avatar. 

I don't see anyone here that thinks the taser should be abolished. Hell, I've even posted a video where the use WAS appropriate. From my own point of view, quite the contrary. They are a fantastic policing tool when used in appropriate circumstances... a godsend. 

The point is that the taser should not have been used in this instance as there was no credible threat to either the student or the cops at that point according to their own guidelines.


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> In the US, if you do not comply with police officers' directions quickly you are likely to get tasered. This has nothing to do with .....   whether or not the US is a police state.



drmb mmm
you sure coulda fooled me  
in fact I'd call this reductio ad absurdum - 
maybe depends on how we define police state - but I'd say you just went a long way to disproving your own case.


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## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

http://letters.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/09/18/taser/view/?show=all
some comments 
Letters to the Editor
A few references to "police state" incidentally 
Here's an extract ....



> Some Americans still speak as though "we are losing our Constitutional rights."
> If you are one of them, *I've got news for you: Your Constitutional rights were taken from you a long time ago*. What you are seeing all around you, every day, and in this glaring example, is that you only have the illusion of freedom, the illusion of rights.




More here (letters to the editor) on Miama Herald .  - but I'll let you read them yourself. 
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=9028.771&nav=messages&webtag=kr-miamitm



> Know your rights: The Kerry Taser incident
> Police use a Taser on a college student who doesn't go quietly after posing an overlong question to John Kerry.
> Tim Grieve [2007-09-18]
> 
> ...





> -- pubpundits
> He was lucky it wasn't a Blackwater mercenary
> Instead of a taser, it would have been an H&K MkIV 9mm submachine gun and the Mercs would just hose down the whole crowd with bullets until they were sure they got their man.
> 
> ...





> Lower than Bush.
> This is very disturbing. Even Bush security hasn't tasered any of his outspoken audience members.
> --Anonymous





> *That's f*cked up
> I don't know what's more disturbing, the video, or the fact that most of the comments on the YouTube comments page are of the "that little faggot deserved it" variety. Way too many Americans seem to *want* to live in an oppressive police state.*
> -- jfriesne





> It's going to be about the Taser
> Trouble all around. The idiot was deliberately disruptive and resisting attempts to remove him, but I would think with handcuffs and multiple police, his removal was assured. Kerry is going to get criticized for his response, but who expects that? And how should he have reacted? I might think of a better way, but I'm getting time to think about it, not having it right in front of me right now with no warning. Somehow, I think Kerry will get blamed for the Taser, though how it's his fault I can't see. I bet if anyone turns on conservative talk radio, this is a main topic of conversation.
> -- webcelt





> Asking to be tased?
> "When you physically resist an officer after repeated demands, you're asking to be tased."
> 
> Please, think about that statement. If the Florida student's greatest offense was to ask a rambling, incoherent question, animated by conspiracy theories, then he most certainly was not "asking to be tased." The responsibility of the officers was to show restraint and only use force when it became clearly a necessity. Based on the video evidence, the student did not demonstrate a clear physical threat to either Senator Kerry or other students in the auditorium ... or himself. Yet officers felt it warranted to 'tase' this guy because he shouted as he was being dragged from the building.
> ...





> Excessive use of force? Yep.
> There can be some real nut jobs on campus police forces. We had a student cop at my school who carried a loaded 9mm around to breakup student parties in the dorms. Student cops weren't supposed to carry weapons, and this guy was totally gung ho. fortunately, no one was shot.
> 
> Still, if you are resisting arrest, you shouldn't be surprised if you are tasered or hit with pepper spray. The guy made his point (at least the first one), and he should have gone quietly when it was obvious that he had lost.
> ...





> I don't currently live in the U.S.
> but am an American citizen, born in Florida.
> I have to say that this piece of video disturbed me on several levels.
> First, this young - perhaps too enthusiastic - student asked a few questions of Mr. Kerry ... and the Senator is clearly heard to welcome the queries. Exercising his free speech right, he's attacked by the police ... what the hell?
> ...





> disturbing? yes. unwarranted? hard to tell.
> Seems like everyone in this scene either overreacted or reacted very badly. When security started moving the questioner away from the microphone, it just looked like a typical case of security intervening with an audience member more interestd in being disruptive than in asking questions. Anyone who's ever been to one of these things shouldn't really have any problem with that. The kid seriously overreacted by hollering about how he was getting arrested; it looked like he was just getting kicked out of the forum. When he resisted, got tackled, tasered and handcuffed, that's when security crossed the line. And the audience clapping was more than a little unnecessary.
> -- matttroke





> The protester was being a complete asshole.
> But the crowd, a bunch of sheep, let the Blackboots brutalize a man for speaking out right in front of their eyes and they did nothing. John Kerry did nothing.
> 
> *We live in an ipso facto police state right now*. This is what you must understand:
> ...





> Four dead in Ohio.
> All dead in 2007. Including that idiot Kerry who SHOULD have intervened and called for calm and called upon the police to let the guy have his fecking say.
> 
> The escalation was in PREVENTING a citizen from speaking, not the citizen's speech, for the love of god.
> ...





> *police state*
> I imagine things like the insane treatment of the student go on all the time, but seeing the whole thing as a video terrifies me. Since when has it been acceptable to *remove someone and then shock them with a taser simply because they are speaking*. Kerry's participation (by his silence) in this incident convinces me that he should not be a senator, much less a president. He was too cowardly to deal effectively with the Swift Boaters and he was too cowardly to intercede with the police to stop what was an assault by many against one. We are truly in trouble as a nation.
> -- mr_kafka


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## drmb (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> drmb mmm
> you sure coulda fooled me
> in fact I'd call this reductio ad absurdum -
> maybe depends on how we define police state - but I'd say you just went a long way to disproving your own case.



Hindsight - I have worked in North Korea, Iran, Cuba, China, Myanmar - the US is not a police state! I would rather have the US system as it is even if you think it flawed. 
Explod - sorry, I just have to put you down as confused!
Hindsight - my last word, if you have humans making judgement calls then you will have differences of opinions. I think the officers acted correctly tasing the guy, you don't. So be it.


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## disarray (22 September 2007)

this requires a reality check. if you have never been in a proper fight then you don't know the amazing feats the human body is capable of when under stress - it can sustain an amazing amount of punishment and still continue to function. a human under stress conditions can perform amazing feats of strength and endurance and security forces must factor this into their reactions. add to this the potential for a suspect to be under the influence of drugs then asking security forces to tiptoe around polite sensibilities needlessly risks the wellbeing of the security forces themselves. this is an unreasonable request.

prior to taser and "non lethal" weapons people were subdued by batons or overwhelming force that was far less focused and precise. when someone has lost control it takes the strength of many to control in a minimally damaging way and so the taser is the perfect means to end these confrontations. the alternative is either clubbing the person into submission or forcing them into submission poses which pushes body mechanics beyond its limits. people talking about wrist locks or martial arts or whatever have no idea about physical confrontation and live on the same deluded planet as those who say "just shoot them in the leg" when some darwin award winner takes several hollwpoints to his body mass.



			
				cuttlefish said:
			
		

> yeah I agree - when the mike got cut off he made a small comment about being cut off and seemed about to walk away. The police woman grabbed him for no reason that I can see. It would be interesting to hear what the police woman was saying to him in one of the video's when he said "I'm not done yet, I've got two more questions". I keep looking for some incident that justifies the initial restraint but can't see one.




you're watching a different video to me. i totally disagree with your assessment of the this incident.

once again, for the situation this thread relates to, the taser was a perfectly justified option. as for other abuses of police power (and 2020's inevitable youtube posting storm) that depends on the situation and is out of the realistic scope of a bunch of share traders crapping on in an internet forum.


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## drmb (22 September 2007)

explod said:


> We need to drop condoms from helicopters and spread a desease that makes most of us sterile.




I don't think the UN human rights charter would allow the latter, although the former could be arranged if you care to donate funds to UNAIDS, UNFPA, and PATH. However, I am not sure if dropping condoms by helicopter advances the debate on tasers, and when to use them


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## explod (22 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I don't think the UN human rights charter would allow the latter, although the former could be arranged if you care to donate funds to UNAIDS, UNFPA, and PATH. However, I am not sure if dropping condoms by helicopter advances the debate on tasers, and when to use them




Yep, you are right, lost my way and my argument to you.  I just do not like any weapons and if we are unable to learn to get on by the use of reason then eventually we will be doomed.  

It is inhumane to bring people into an overcrowded, choking world and this will have to be faced also or we are doomed.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

drmb - US is certainly a police state according to many of those letters to the editor.  If you are going to use Myanmar as a datum - then - (oh sorry, sorry day) - sure,the current USA might show up as "passable" 

But compared to Aus they are a police state - and I can tell you we have our problems too.  (PS No way do we want police using tasers. )

Again, drmb - this is how REAL people should react IMO. (or do you disagree??) 
and note the warnings in the last quarter. (from about 3.00min mark) 

"youtube is the future - you're gonna find out ugly things from youtube - and it's up to you whether to tolerate it or to change it  - whatever you can't change you're gonna pass onto your children - they are going to inherit your legacy " 

University Of Florida Student Tasered


----------



## drmb (22 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> drmb - US is certainly a police state according to many of those letters to the editor.  If you are going to use Myanmar as a datum - then - (oh sorry, sorry day) - sure,the current USA might show up as "passable" But compared to Aus they are a police state - and I can tell you we have our problems too.  (PS No way do we want police using tasers. )




I don't get your point. If you remove police you have anarchy. If you have police - you have a police state? I think we both agree that police are there to uphold the law, and they have certain powers of arrest and restraint, doesn't matter whether it is UK, Australia, Canada, or the US. The police powers are different in different countries. I think if the police had tasers for example here, that crazy Frenchman (and he was crazy) with his butcher's knife would not have died on Bondi Beach. The taser would have brough him down.
I have watched and rewatched the Florida video. At a certain point the young man is advancing to the platform where the speakers are seated, agressively, loudly, and waving his hands in the air which contain a book, but may also have a concealed weapon. Bad mistake. The officers training would well and truely kick in by then. Once the officers have pushed him to the back of the auditroium, he is warned not once, not twice but many times to stop resisting. The female officer warns him - "stop resisting", but he keeps struggling and arguing as if it was a debate. He continues to struggle. He gets warned again, and again. He is being held down by 3 officers but is still struggling. He gets warned again but still struggles and is yelling, even screaming. I am on the cops side, you don't know if he has a weapon, he is resisting, so ---- he gets tased, all according to the SOP. Simple message - if the cops say stop resisting, then stop!! But that guy clearly wanted to be a martyr and his wish came true. That is not a police state. If you want to know what a extreme society is like, please visit any of the extreme countries I have mentioned, see the reality!


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 September 2007)

you're missing points 5 and 7 of my post #130.

Since I posted that, I find he said he just had 2 more questions - asked em - finish, no more talking, was ready to walk away, Kerry was ready to answer - but no, police pounced - FOR WHY?.  Their reasons won't stand up in court ( for my money) - time will probably tell, unless they settle out of court of course. 

I mean 
Q1.   he asks "why not impeach Bush BEFORE he attacks Iran!?"
HELL - he might even have a point yes? Or are you gonna follow Bush into Iran as well.  

PS I withdraw the claim that the photo of Kerry (smiling) and Hillary Clinton (not smiling) was out of sinque and had been taken from when he says " hell Clinton was impeached for a BJ" - shows the bloke has a sense of humour - BUT STILL A SERIOUS POINT HE WAS MAKING IMO - 

part joke on my part, but I was probably wrong there.  (Hillary seems to join him on stage a bit later).   I mean if Chaser can ask her about her relations with her interns then .... 


Q2.  skull and bones etc.

But I would still say it's the reference to Bush that makes those police turn their heads, and then decide to take him out.


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Not sure if you have seen the full story 20/20, but you seem to keep misunderstanding. Phelps was not in the same league as the SB in question.
> 
> Disarrray sums up nicely - 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
> 2. security asks said student to please stfu
> ...




drmb - Lemme understand you too - a student who suggests that Bush be impeached before he attacks Iran is a SOB. 
But Phelps is in a far lesser league IYO?



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/21/2039907.htm
> ALP candidate accepts 'Nazi' apology
> The Labor candidate for the marginal federal seat of Eden-Monaro, Mike Kelly, says he wants to move on with campaigning after his military service in Iraq was compared to the actions of Nazi concentration camp guards.




as for Disarrray's summary ...


> 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone.



I would say he participates in forum - has the microphone - not annoying anyone


> 2. security asks said student to please stfu



I would say he is asked to wind up, and asks two quick questions with full permission of Kerry


> 3. student gets agitated, raises voice several octaves, begins to rant. loss of emotional control becomes evident.



I would say that happens after he is "arrested" for no reason 


> 4. discussion moderators cut microphone.



I would say he finished his questions. 


> 5. security moves in and asks student to please leave.



I would say (since you see the bloke in the suit decide to evict him behind his back) that they move in and grab him.


> 6. student arcs up, becomes highly irrational, pushes security, starts ranting, resists attempts made by moderators to peacefully remove him from the scene.



the rest then becomes irrelevant to the argument of why he was "arrested" - if that's what they are calling it - etc .....


> 7. student gets taken down by security for causing a ruckus. continues to struggle.



see answer to 6


> 8. student, in a highly agitated state and having lost control of his reason continues to struggle, despite repeated warnings not to do so.



see answer to 6


> 9. student is tasered to end the confrontation.



see answer to 6


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2007)

Question: How do folks think Aussie police would have handled this situation?

Explod, would love to hear your insights on this question.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Question: How do folks think Aussie police would have handled this situation?
> 
> Explod, would love to hear your insights on this question.




Sorry wayneL I'm no explod but for what its worth 

This would not usually happen in Australia.

1. People have more important things to do than turn up to political meetings.

2. If they do they say what they have to and then shut up.

3. If they don't the crowd shut them up.

4. Contrary argument is tolerated in Australia at public meetings (and usually on internet forums).

5. If someone ever behaved like this they would have been grappled and taken outside, asked politely by the police to get into a paddy wagon, what they would like for dinner, entree or soup etc., the usual stuff that police ask.
and probably given some time to cool off and then given a good kick in the **** and kicked out of the station.

Garpal  .


----------



## drmb (23 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> drmb - Lemme understand you too - a student who suggests that Bush be impeached before he attacks Iran is a SOB. But Phelps is in a far lesser league IYO?




I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.

The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it. 

In my line of work I have far more serious situations to deal with with respect to loss of health, life and loss of liberty, and appalling poverty, then to worry about non-lethal use of legal restraining methods on SBs. 

If you really want to get involved in human rights then better to eg agitate about Dafur and Janjaweed, Somalia and warlords, Afganistan and ditto, Zimbabwe and Mugabe, etc, etc, etc. Take care and try to not to get too emotionally attached to trivial issues!!!

* You must pick a number between 1 and 5. 1 you get your left arm machetted off, 2 your lips, 3 your ears, 4 your head, etc


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.
> 
> The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it.
> 
> ...




Well said drmb. 

Agree totally.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Sorry wayneL I'm no explod but for what its worth
> 
> This would not usually happen in Australia.
> 
> ...



Garp,

Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense.

Re 3. - Maybe, maybe not. Would depend on the meeting and the nature of the topic.

Re 4. - Agree generally, which is why this incident has an exclamation mark for us. Just how much DO we want to be like the US? (How many forums have you been on? Many will ban at the drop of a hat)

Re 5. - Agree. This would be a good model for those US coppers. No way would an Oz copper have tased in this situation. The kick in the nuts would be a slim minority also... a telephone directory and a truncheon against the ribcage is more likely. 

Thanks for your opinion, I think it rather confirms my thoughts on the other matter.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Garp,
> 
> Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense.
> 
> ...




Sorry wayneL

Lost you there mate

To what are you referring "the other matter"

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.
> 
> The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it.
> 
> ...




drmb,

Kudos for your work on overseas postings and thank you for highlighting the differences in western society and some third world hellholes. However, I just cannot see the relevance The Congo or Somalia has to how law is administered in the United States or other western countries. It is irrelevant.

Re the taser thing; clearly, discussion is not resulting in the convergence of thinking, despite the apparent cognitive dissonance of some of the pro tasered group.

Unless folks have any further facts or logic, we are going to be going around in circles.

Checking out now unless something interesting comes up.


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## drmb (23 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> Garp, Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense. etc




Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Sorry wayneL
> 
> Lost you there mate
> 
> ...




The taser incident.

Cheers


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!




Agree totally.

This could be a good thread and should not be closed down.

Cool heads make for reasonable arguments.

Garpal


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## wayneL (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!



I will never moderate anyone's opinion on a subject, no matter how much I object to it. I am not umpiring a footy game here and my views on this thread have nothing to do with moderating.

But as I say, checking out for now.

Ciao


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## wayneL (23 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Agree totally.
> 
> This could be a good thread and should not be closed down.
> 
> ...



As the thread is on topic, there is no reason or threat to close it down... refer to avatar.


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!



drmb
lol
If I were you, I'd be asking the mods to delete my posts - my version of the incident - rather than have it stand as a beacon of your reluctance to see this incident accurately WITHOUT accepting the spindoctored reporting from the USA press.

If we agree that they use tasers "shooting from the hip" - obviously figuratively - then we should ask ourselves..

1. Is USA
a) a police state (with or without fascist overtones)
b) a seriously unhealthy democracy
c) a mildly unhealthy democracy
d) a healthy democracy

2. Is AUS
a) a police state (with or without fascist overtones)
b) a seriously unhealthy democracy
c) a mildly unhealthy democracy
d) a healthy democracy

Finally 
3. Should we follow USA 
a) regarding their human rights issues
b) on policing trends
c) on tasers
d) into the blind bible belt 
e) anywhere and/or on anything
f) into War in Iraq
g) into war in Iran

or 
4. should 
a) they be following us more, and
b) should we be giving a clearer more moral message to our leaders that they improve their act

PS My posts #130 and #160 refer - my version, and the Disarray/ dmrb / garpal version
PPS - hey not just the US press version - you add a heap of spins yourself(ves)


----------



## Sean K (23 September 2007)

Anyone considered this guy set it up?


----------



## drmb (23 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> If we agree that they use tasers "shooting from the hip" - obviously figuratively - then we should ask ourselves..



I obviously don't agree! I saw non-lethal force being used as a last resort, and according to what must be formal training. I also don't agree that the US and Aus are anywhere like police states, there are about 140 countries in front of them on that score. The US and Aus are democracies but being democratic doesn't mean we accept threats, and that if a threat presents it is not dealt with. I saw a Spoilt Brat out of control before he was restrained, I saw no excessive force, I saw police officers acting obviously in accord with their training, I see no reason not to have the same non-lethal force used in Australia! You have a view, I have a view, I won't change and neither it appears will you. So be it.


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## drmb (23 September 2007)

kennas said:


> Anyone considered this guy set it up?




Yes i do, I made the point in a previous post. He appeared to be wanting to be a martyr and he got his way!


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I obviously don't agree! I saw non-lethal force being used as a last resort, and according to what must be formal training. I also don't agree that the US and Aus are anywhere like police states, there are about 140 countries in front of them on that score. The US and Aus are democracies but being democratic doesn't mean we accept threats, and that if a threat presents it is not dealt with. ...




Well I see many countries ahead of us (Aus) since we "locked hips with Bush". Nearly all of Europe for starters. 
Whether that's 1, 14 or 140 not important.
It could be "nil", and I'd still be looking for us to improve if I thought there was room for improvement.
Could we improve? you bet we could.
Could USA improve ? ( more relevant question would be "could they get much worse - and still claim / pretend to be "land of the free, home of the brave")

btw, it's BS in my opinion that he posed a threat 
and it's absolute BS that they needed to taser that bloke. 

You say it was non-lethal - I'll cover that in another post . 
But again you are incorrect.


----------



## cuttlefish (23 September 2007)

disarray said:


> you're watching a different video to me. i totally disagree with your assessment of the this incident.




Well I've explained my reasons as to why I believe the initial restraint was without cause, you haven't, you've just stated that you disagree.  Thus far after several pages I still can't see any explanation as to why the initial restraint occurred - what law was broken that required him to be arrested in the first place?  If he didn't do anything that required arrest then he was being assaulted. It is human nature to resist and defend ones self against an assault.

I doubt  in any of the responses that follow an explanation as to why he was restrained in the first place will be provided either.  Instead he'll be referred to as a spoilt brat, tazer tard etc. and we'll have the politics of third world countries used to justify the criminal behaviour of police in a supposed free democracy.  

An interesting irony that some consider being restrained and assaulted by 5 people makes you a wimp, but tazering someone that is being restrained by 5 people is actually heroic behavoiur and all part of defending freedom and democracy.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb 
You say that tasers are non-lethal. 
You also proclaim that you're close to international justice organisations.
Here's Amnesty International on the subject (note that there were already 74 deaths in USA in 2004) :-
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772
First Summary:-


> The report includes a review by Amnesty International of information on 74 taser-involved deaths, based on a range of sources, including autopsy reports in 21 cases. *Most of those who died were unarmed men who, while displaying disturbed or combative behaviour, did not appear to present a serious threat to the lives or safety of others.*



http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772

Second Summary:-
"home of the brave?"
taking into account a person's condition before tasering them?
how about this one - tasering a pregnant women in the stomach (TWICE) after being told she was pregnant 
yep - "land of the free, home of the brave"



> wedding reception - noise - The police claimed (mrs) Madison struck and shoved several officers and ran into the house. - she denied it - *She was discovered hiding in a clothes cupboard and, after being warned, was shot (not once but) twice in the abdomen *with a taser when she refused to come out. .... who tasered her *despite being told by several guests that she was two months pregnant.* Madison was taken to a police station and released the same night, after being charged in connection with the incident. She received no medical attention while in police custody, apart from having taser darts removed by paramedics. She went to a hospital immediately on her release and, according to her lawyer, was told her baby's vital signs were weak... lost baby soon after[/B].



http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772


> UK: Tasers trialled by UK police revealed as potentially lethal and prone to abuse in new report
> Posted: 30 November 2004
> 
> Amnesty International UK is calling for a public statement by the UK Home Office and police chiefs that the potentially-lethal devices will be treated as such: only issued to trained firearms officers and used only where necessary to avoid threats to life or serious injury. The organisation is also calling for a rigorous, independent and impartial study into the use and effects of tasers.
> ...




this one tasersed 6 times WHILST HANDCUFFED.


> James Borden was arrested in November 2003 and died shortly after the administration *of the last of six electro-shocks, delivered while his hands were cuffed behind his back.* The medical examiner released a statement listing cause of death as a heart attack, drug intoxication and electrical shock.
> One of the officers involved reportedly said:
> 
> "I asked Borden to lift up his foot to remove the shorts, but he was being combative and refused. I dry stunned Borden in the lower abdominal area ... We got Borden into the booking area. Borden was still combative and uncooperative. I dried stunned [sic] Borden in the buttocks area..." After the final shock, the officer "noticed that Borden was no longer responsive and his face was discoloured."



BTW, turns out that a Phelps WAS tasered, - at least his grandchild - not recently, not in Queanbeyan, but 2004 in Illinois - just that it was an unborn child. 
and all over a noisy wedding party. 


> Clarence Phelps and his pregnant daughter, Romona Madison, filed a lawsuit in September 2004 against police from Evergreen Park Police Department, Illinois, alleging that they were tasered and subjected to excessive force outside their home. *On 18 September 2004 at the daughter's wedding reception, police arrived in response to a complaint about loud music and people dancing in the driveway. *According to police accounts reported in the media, Phelps was uncooperative and was stunned with the taser after he allegedly pushed two officers. The police claimed Madison struck and shoved several officers and ran into the house. *She was discovered hiding in a clothes cupboard and, after being warned, was shot twice in the abdomen *with a taser when she refused to come out. Lawyers for the *family claim that neither Phelps nor Madison had fought with officers and that Madison was followed into the house by overzealous officers who tasered her despite being told by several guests that she was two months pregnant. *Madison was taken to a police station and released the same night, after being charged in connection with the incident. She received *no medical attention while in police custody*, apart from having taser darts removed by paramedics. She went to a hospital immediately on her release and, according to her lawyer, was told her baby's vital signs were weak[/B].
> 
> Notes
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (23 September 2007)

kennas said:


> Anyone considered this guy set it up?




Yes, he has a history of being a stirrer.
But I suppose that is not relevant to the topic at hand, i.e. was the taser appropriate.
Could, however, have some bearing on the police's handling of him, e.g. can't remember the name of that serial pest we have here in Australia?  Someone will know who I mean.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

> James Borden was arrested in November 2003 and died shortly after the administration *of the last of six electro-shocks, delivered while his hands were cuffed behind his back.* The medical examiner released a statement listing cause of death as a heart attack, drug intoxication and electrical shock.
> One of the officers involved reportedly said: etc



btw - on one of those youtubes on the U of F incident, - and as one of those US news reporters alludes to  - he is almost cuffed when they taser him.


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

kennas said:


> Anyone considered this guy set it up?



kennas,
are you suggesting kennas that to come to a political forum with prepared questions , to be delivered in a prepared manner , ad libbed whatever- - is somehow 
a) wrong? 

or 

b) (as seems to be the case here) an indictable offence?


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

perhaps we should try to work out some rules under which tasers would be acceptable?

here's my proposals for first rule or two
#1)   never taser a woman who is hiding in a cupboard and you've been told she's pregnant -  even if she DID make some noise at a wedding party

#2) never taser an unarmed woman period - they MIGHT be pregnant, and sheesh, if a man can't handle an unarmed woman then ... 

sick joke - but whether or not the mother was unarmed, you could assume that the baby was "disarmed" during the tasering.


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

gives a new meaning to the phrase 
"relased after being charged"   

they forget to mention it was with 50K volts - 200 times more voltage than house single phase voltage.  
	

		
			
		

		
	







How's this for the ultimate irony ..
youdo a green card OH&S course in Sydney - they take you to see the remembrance wall at CFMEU HQ - about 250 deaths in recent years - about half from electrocution - I mean those wriggley things can kill you 

- then you see police happily giving people multiple shocks (rarely one if seems - frequently "several" ) when they are arguably (certainly ?) unnecessary.


----------



## drmb (23 September 2007)

20/20 - you feel very strongly about this whereas I do not. I believe the cops acted correctly, you do not. So be it. 

You might see a connection between use of tasers and police states, and the US/Aus involvement in a war in Iraq. I do not. I think the use of tasers by police for control is OK, in certain situations (and I class the Florida one as OK), you don't. 

I am not going to change your mind nor will you change mine. 

If you feel strongly about this and as this is dmocracy with an election coming up please feel free to run and air your views publically. Remember though it is a democracy and the fundamental feature of democracies is government based on MAJORITY rule. If we the majority ban tasers, then I will stick by that. If we, the majority accept that all police should be issued with tasers and should use them in certain situations within defined rules, then I will stick by that. In the US, Tasers are part of the police officers issue, and the take home messsage is surely, if you are in the USA resisting arrest (no matter how wrong it may be) and the police say to you "Stop resisting", then you had better stop! or face the consequences.


----------



## disarray (23 September 2007)

cuttlefish said:


> Well I've explained my reasons as to why I believe the initial restraint was without cause, you haven't, you've just stated that you disagree.  Thus far after several pages I still can't see any explanation as to why the initial restraint occurred - what law was broken that required him to be arrested in the first place?




i have stated repeatedly in this thread he was initially restrained because he was in a heightened state of agitation and was requested by the moderators of the forum to shut up. he wouldn't shut up and when approached by security he responded with violence and erratic behaviour. even at this point he still wasn't "under arrest", he was merely being forcefully ejected from the meeting - had he just stfu and left without resisting that would have been the end of it. i really can't make it much clearer than that for you.


----------



## drmb (23 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> they forget to mention it was with 50K volts - 200 times more voltage than house single phase voltage




If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.




It is not volts that kill?
you don't get one without the other btw 
sheesh now you're an expert on electricity are you dmrb lol

my reply?
and if you read these posts you'd see that tasers can kill - have killed and will continue to kill whilstever they are in the hands of trigger happy police.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

never mind drmb
we can agree to disagree
you don't mind the police here going the way of USA - I do
you think that bloke deserved to be tasered for asking two extra questions that used the word "Bush" - or if you prefer "for participating in a political forum the way he did" - I don't

Thought for the day man....
maybe people like me and some of those USA posters back there who were disgusted by the U or F incident will one day force change for the better.

and if that happens

we'll let people like you enjoy the benefits    

PS that goes for your kids as well ( as well as mine)


----------



## drmb (23 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> It is not volts that kill?
> you don't get one without the other btw  sheesh now you're an expert on electricity are you dmrb lol



As a matter of fact, yes, and it extends as far as my medical regulatory background on design and review of self powered electronic circuits and testing, and implantable heart pacemakers and implantable defibs, as well as self powered devices such as cochlear implants. 

Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!

"we'll let people like you enjoy the benefits  PS that goes for your kids as well ( as well as mine)"

You are so sanctimonious! But you don't understand, do you? I am already enjoying the benefits of cops with tasers, I feel so much safer in the USA knowing that cops in the USA carry them, and are prepared to use them against people who resist arrest. I have no problems with that. I very much doubt you will change that situation in the USA, for which I am sure my kids and grandkids will thank us all!

I'll be back in the US in a few weeks, picking up a car at JFK then driving to New Jersey for meetings, then on to Raleigh NC. I'll be there more than 2 weeks again, I imagine that it wil be unchanged from 10 days ago when I was in PA, or 4 weeks ago when I was in SC. Free and safe! Take care and over and out!!


----------



## chops_a_must (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> I'll be back in the US in a few weeks, picking up a car at JFK then driving to New Jersey for meetings, then on to Raleigh NC. I'll be there more than 2 weeks again, I imagine that it wil be unchanged from 10 days ago when I was in PA, or 4 weeks ago when I was in SC. Free and safe! Take care and over and out!!




I somehow don't think that area has a high taser usage. Unless it is females using them to get away from the Duke LaCrosse team. Lol!

Lovely part of the world in that NC region. Would really love to visit there sometime soon, especially Chapel Hill.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> As a matter of fact, yes, and it extends as far as my medical regulatory background on design and review of self powered electronic circuits and testing, and implantable heart pacemakers and implantable defibs, as well as self powered devices such as cochlear implants.
> 
> Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!!!



gee you're the expert we've been looking for ...
just why is it that so many have died. ?

maybe you'll tell me I can look up "why tasers are 100% safe" on google as well?

as for the right to ask political questions in a forum - you aren't or weren't born an aussie I take it - whatever - 
sure, you may not feel it as passionately as I do .


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

I'm starting to suspect that some here maybe didn't understand this joke 
(not my joke lol - laugh or not , up to you)

George Bush visits Bourke school whilst touring Western NSW..
"OK children" says the teacher - "aren't we lucky to have President Bush here with us today well, are there any little questions you'd like to ASK President Bush?"
pregnant pause, Smithy's hand shoots up.
"Yes Smithy?" 
"Mr Bush" says young Smithy, "I've got 3 questions! - 
1. why did you invade iraq, 
2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and 
3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad ?" - 

Dubya looks uneasy, but fortunately the bell rings for recess. "ok says the teacher - recess!" 

Returning after 20 mins, the teacher again invites questions. "Yes Thommo?"
"Mr Bush" says young Thommo, "I've got 5 questions! - 
1. why did you invade iraq, 
2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and 
3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad - ........
4. why did the recess bell ring 5 minutes early, and 
5. ........what's happened to Smithy??"


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I somehow don't think that area has a high taser usage. Unless it is females using them to get away from the Duke LaCrosse team. Lol!
> 
> Lovely part of the world in that NC region. Would really love to visit there sometime soon, especially Chapel Hill.



I have family who live there. (just a bit of trivia)


----------



## chops_a_must (23 September 2007)

wayneL said:


> I have family who live there. (just a bit of trivia)



In Chapel Hill? Or somewhere else in NC? Quite the young person's hub.


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## wayneL (23 September 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> In Chapel Hill? Or somewhere else in NC? Quite the young person's hub.



All around the Chapel Hill - Raleigh - Durham area/suburbs. I'll write about it later when I have some time.


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## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

drmb said:


> If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.





drmb said:


> Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!



down under we call tasers “lightning bolts”
- try to scarpa through wattle – they’ll still you
its not the amps and its not the volts
it's the kilowatts what’ll kill you

I used to be amp-i dextrous
till I got this re-volt-ing charge
I said "hey - just boys being boisterous”
he said “hey – here’s a surge from the sarge”

does it have to be bullets that drill ya ?
or guns from which currents flow ?
you ask me what kills ya ? - watts kill ya !! (?) - (I think) 
you ask me *what’s dead ?? *? – *THAT* I know … 

PS 1 joule / sec = 1 watt


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

Here are some comments on a typical US youtube post. 
I have not edited them or chosen some over others 
 but it shows how the rest of the world is thinking

Personally I think that Johnny Howard did a good thing in tightening up on gun laws.  And with them the likes of tasers (you'd like to think). 

See if these quotes sound like a healthy society in your opinion  



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkHi...round-check-comes-in-metallic-pink-227117.php
> 
> i like x26 taser it is better than c2 taser i draw it so quicky if someone tired swing a stick or a knife or beer bottle i carry it on my bolt if u drop ur c2 in pocket or bag .u cant find so quicky
> Brent376 (1 month ago)
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

and some comments from seattle area (where I have several friends) 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201700_taser30.html


> Tuesday, November 30, 2004
> Police are too quick to grab for Taser's power, say critics
> Teens and pregnant women have felt jolt in King County
> By PHUONG CAT LE AND HECTOR CASTRO
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

explod - can I ask you a question please 
as an excop - 
how often have you seen totally - I mean TOTALLY - trumped up charges that someone resisted arrest ?

I'm talking about the "ole trifecta"  - "assault of an officer, language and resist " 

PS 90% of the time BS - IMO - I await your opinion / confirmation / denial


----------



## explod (23 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> explod - can I ask you a question please
> as an excop -
> how often have you seen totally - I mean TOTALLY - trumped up charges that someone resisted arrest ?
> 
> ...




As a junior a number of times on stations.  However 1970 demonstrations at the Springbok Rugby, Olympic Park there were 40 or fifty bundled into vans just because they were there.  Police mood became inflamed when a Traffic Operations Group member was injured when (I think) a live flare got caught unside his helmet.     Demonstrations brings out the worst in crowds and in police.

As I reached higher rank it never happened in my presence and rarely on my watch as I did not tolerate it.  I became unpopular as a result so that says something but many of my peers felt the same way and as a result the job cleaned up in this regard from those early times.  Cant speak for the last nine years when I retired.

Later at Court some informants would fail to front so suspects, so called would have charges dismissed.   Bail Act was also bad in those early years and offenders could be locked up for days for very trivial stuff, so some things have improved considerably.


----------



## cuttlefish (23 September 2007)

disarray said:


> i have stated repeatedly in this thread he was initially restrained because he was in a heightened state of agitation and was requested by the moderators of the forum to shut up. he wouldn't shut up and when approached by security he responded with violence and erratic behaviour. even at this point he still wasn't "under arrest", he was merely being forcefully ejected from the meeting - had he just stfu and left without resisting that would have been the end of it. i really can't make it much clearer than that for you.




I don't agree, but have a better understanding of your line of reasoning from the above.  If you had refrained from insulting and deriding the bloke it would have been easier to decipher your point from earlier posts.

I believe the police were ineffective in their approach to communicating with him, this led to him forming the view that he was being subdued as a result of the content of his questions. I also don't believe his emotional state was at a level of agitation that required him to be restrained, particularly given that he was in a university environment, he was asking quite confronting questions on a big political issue to a major political figure, and he was only 21 years old.  I believe John Kerry (who said "its ok I'll answer his question" simultaneously with him being restrained) took the situation in the context it should have been taken and that the police should have taken it. 

When he was restrained without the reason for the restraint being communicated effectively to him prior to the act of restraint, he formed the view that he was being arrested as a result of the content of his questions, not because he was disruptive and ignoring directives.  This extended to him then thinking that he might actually be being 'taken away by the government' for holding an anti-government viewpoint.  This fear led him to resist the arrest and try to escape.

When you break it down, he was effectively asking John Kerry to impeach Bush and implying that a possible reason John Kerry hadn't impeached Bush was because they were actually in cahoots via a secret society.  These are weighty issues for the mind of a 21 year old and its understandable that he'd get emotional in raising them to a significant political figure. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech - he didn't threaten anyone and I don't believe anyone genuinely thought he may be a threat. 

I still believe the initial restraint was unnecessary in the context of the situation and conveyed the wrong message to both the individual and society as a whole.


----------



## 2020hindsight (23 September 2007)

explod said:


> As a junior a number of times on stations.  However 1970 demonstrations at the Springbok Rugby, Olympic Park there were 40 or fifty bundled into vans just because they were there.  Police mood became inflamed when a Traffic Operations Group member was injured when (I think) a live flare got caught unside his helmet.     Demonstrations brings out the worst in crowds and in police.
> 
> As I reached higher rank it never happened in my presence and rarely on my watch as I did not tolerate it.  I became unpopular as a result so that says something but many of my peers felt the same way and as a result the job cleaned up in this regard from those early times.  Cant speak for the last nine years when I retired.
> 
> Later at Court some informants would fail to front so suspects, so called would have charges dismissed.   Bail Act was also bad in those early years and offenders could be locked up for days for very trivial stuff, so some things have improved considerably.



thanks explod
I can tell you I've recently seen a case where a number of police completely fabricated "a trifecta" - and fabricated assault charges where they in fact were doing the assaulting.
 and when it went to court it was shown to be so (using detailed analysis of video evidence)
still justice won out in the end. 
Just I'd hate it if they had tasers - they did enough damage with pushing , kicking , and unnecessary mace


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 September 2007)

explod - just in case you want to reminisce 
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/sportsf/stories/s444361.htm
note that there's an audio track as well 
note this was posted on ABC in 2001 - hence 30 years ago becomes 30 odd 37 whatever



> Thirty years ago, the South African rugby team, the Springboks, arrived in Australia for a six week match tour.
> 
> Although supported by the Federal Government, the Springbok tour was deeply contoversial and divisive. It sparked anti-apartheid protests around the country, and a state of emergency was declared in Queensland.
> 
> ...



lol feeling it's a different John Howard. - mind you the rest rings true. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Blacks_vs_Springboks

Here's a background - the boks started internationally in 1891 - we might be hearing more about them in France in 2007 yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team



> Seventies and eighties
> When the All Blacks toured South Africa in June-July 1970, the Springboks won the test series 3-1. The Prime Minister of New Zealand cancelled the 1973 Springbok tour of New Zealand, but the 1976 All Blacks tour of South Africa went ahead. Again the Springboks won by three tests to one.
> 
> *Massive anti-apartheid demonstrations greeted the South African rugby tour of Australia in 1971. The South African team had to be transported in Australian Air Force planes as the trade unions refused to service planes or trains transporting them. The Springboks’ tour began with matches in Perth, then Adelaide and Melbourne. The Springboks won all three tests, scoring 18-6, 14-6, and 19-11.*
> ...



lol "the Battle of Boet Erasmus Stadium"


----------



## disarray (24 September 2007)

we're going around in circles here cuttlefish. i understand your point and i disagree with it. he lost control, became irrational and so was taken down, your psychological interpretation of his inner thought processes notwithstanding. it was a perfectly justifiable act, and maybe in the future he will learn a measure of self control and get a small glimmer of understanding that no one really cares about his rantings on secret societies, election rigging and book reviews. he can save that for his crappy blog. so thank you for the discussion and we'll agree to disagree. see you in the next thread where we butt heads


----------



## explod (24 September 2007)

disarray said:


> we're going around in circles here cuttlefish. i understand your point and i disagree with it. he lost control, became irrational and so was taken down, your psychological interpretation of his inner thought processes notwithstanding. it was a perfectly justifiable act, and maybe in the future he will learn a measure of self control and get a small glimmer of understanding that no one really cares about his rantings on secret societies, election rigging and book reviews. he can save that for his crappy blog. so thank you for the discussion and we'll agree to disagree. see you in the next thread where we butt heads




Absolutely wrong, he did not get upset in any way till the police touched him, they precipitated the action then later tasered him.


----------



## disarray (24 September 2007)

explod said:


> Absolutely wrong, he did not get upset in any way till the police touched him, they precipitated the action then later tasered him.




nope. he was emotionally charged regarding his subject matter, the first approach by security was brushed off with confrontational body language and defiance. the mic was cut, security moved in, he became aggressive. HE precipitated the action that later got him tasered.


----------



## explod (24 September 2007)

disarray said:


> nope. he was emotionally charged regarding his subject matter, the first approach by security was brushed off with confrontational body language and defiance. the mic was cut, security moved in, he became aggressive. HE precipitated the action that later got him tasered.




Since when can police touch some one for being emotionally charged.  In fact he was merely being insistent on the point he was making and the question being asked.  If a person was armed or a threat physically yes, but not in this circumstance.  It is not the charter of police to act on points of view, emotially charged or not.


----------



## disarray (24 September 2007)

explod said:
			
		

> Since when can police touch some one for being emotionally charged.




when the moderator of the discussion forum wants him to shut up. and they weren't cops, they are campus security - they have a history of being taser happy and i would concede they probably lack the training and discipline of cops.



			
				explod said:
			
		

> In fact he was merely being insistent on the point he was making and the question being asked




student - "NO! i'm gonna finish my question. and i have 2 more questions!" /cue irrational rant
audience - "groans"

in fact he was being a complete wanker on the point he was making and the questions he was demanding to ask. enforcing your opinions and ignoring moderators defeats the purpose of "discussion forum" non? he was in the audiences' face and wouldn't step back when requested.



			
				explod said:
			
		

> It is not the charter of police to act on points of view, emotially charged or not




no its the charter of police and security to do as directed by organisers of the event. as they did. we might just have to agree to disagree here too


----------



## cuttlefish (24 September 2007)

disarray said:


> we're going around in circles here cuttlefish. i understand your point and i disagree with it. he lost control, became irrational and so was taken down, your psychological interpretation of his inner thought processes notwithstanding. it was a perfectly justifiable act, and maybe in the future he will learn a measure of self control and get a small glimmer of understanding that no one really cares about his rantings on secret societies, election rigging and book reviews. he can save that for his crappy blog. so thank you for the discussion and we'll agree to disagree. see you in the next thread where we butt heads




yeah I'm happy to put it to bed there as well, in the future organisers of such events may learn that before restraining someone its not a bad idea to let them know why they're being restrained, that getting a little hot under the collar is part of politics, particularly in a student forum, and that 5 trained people are actually capable of safely restraining someone without the need to use a weapon. Differing viewpoints and not likely to change so happy to agree to disagree and move on.


----------



## drmb (24 September 2007)

The guy Andrew Meyer has a history of "pranks" and set ups. What you don't see in the vids is the lead up to the questions, when Andrew Meyer taunts the cops before he starts asking his questions - he asks "you going to arrest me. You going to tase me?"  read the police reports of the incidents, it's verifiable by witnesses - draw your own conclusions. 

Excerpt below (entire extract too long for ASF)

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/09/19/document-drop-the-andrew-meyer-taser-stunt-police-report/

9/17/2007 14:33 INITIAL MALLO, NICOLE LYNN 048 JVINSON 9/18/2007 15:24

On 09/17/07 at 1015 hours, I was working an overtime function at the University Auditorium for Accent presents Senator John Kerry. There were approximately 350 plus people in attendance. At approximately 1245 hrs., Ambassador Jett informed the audience that there would be a question and answer session and that Senator Kerry would only be answering about 6 questions, 3 on each side of the room where there were microphones set up. Senator Kerry told Ambassador Jett that he might be able to answer a couple more, time permitting. Senator Kerry was answering questions during the “question and answer stage” of his presentation when the audience was told there would only be one question left to be answered. After the question was answered, Senator Kerry stated the question and answer was over and thanked the audience for asking their questions. The approximate number of people in line asking questions was about 20, and Senator Kerry answered about 8 questions. All of the people standing in line started to dissipate and either sat back down or started to leave. As Senator Kerry was ending his speech, a man disrupted the senator by screaming, yelling, and flailing his arms. The man moved his way down the aisle yelling, “Why don’t you answer my questions, I have been waiting and listening to you speak in circles for the last two hours.” 

“These officers are going to arrest me”. I didn’t see any officer directly next to him until I noticed Officer Wise walking down trying to get his attention. The man was screaming and yelling obscenities until Senator Kerry told him to calm down and that he would take his question, but he needed to calm down. At that point, the man stated, “You will take my question because I have been listening to your crap for two hours”. The man at that point turned to his friend and said, “Are you taping this? Do you have this? You ready?” The man was talking to a woman who was there to film him. Before asking the question, I had a chance to ask the man if he was a student and he stated, “I don’t have to tell you.” I the asked him if he knew the rules to the student code of conduct and he said, “What?” I informed the man that after he asked Senator Kerry the question that I needed to talk to him outside. After asking the question, the man would not let Senator Kerry finish his statement and kept badgering the senator about his beliefs, talking about “blow jobs”, and yelling as loud as he could as to sensationalize his presence. At that moment the Accent Director, Max Tyroler, asked us to take him out of the auditorium and had his microphone turned off stating, “He had said enough.” Officer Wise and I grabbed both of the man’s arms and asked him to come with us out of the auditorium to speak with us. The man then lifted me up and pushed Officer Wise to avoid being taken into custody. As he pushed and kicked Officer Wise, Sgt. King grabbed him and escorted him out of the room, but the man pushed Sgt. King out of the way and was yelling and trying to get back down the aisle. At this point Officer Sexton, Officer De Jesus, and Officer Lamb tried to assist Officer Wise and Sgt King in getting a hold of the punching and kicking irate man while Officer Dean, Officer Passero, and Officer Spurlin were present trying to assist. 

The man continued to scream and yell as well as push, kick, and elbow the officers attempting to take him into custody. After multiple attempts to tell him to stop resisting, the man said, “No” and continued to push and elbow the officers. Only one handcuff was placed on the man as he continued to punch his way out of the hold. The officers could not get a hold of his other arm as he was kicking, punching, and elbowing into officers. After many attempts to get the man to comply, he chose to continue actively resisting the officers. I obeyed the command from Sgt. King to utilize the taser for the continuation of non-compliance by the man. One contact tase to the man’s left shoulder was deployed for the duration of its cycle. After the cycle ended, the man was asked to comply and stop resisting and for a brief moment he did, at which time he was placed in handcuffs. After he was lifted to his feet, he kept screaming and yelling to let him go by continually pushing the officers. I read the man his Miranda rights and explained why he was being placed under arrest. As the man was escorted down stairs with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again. Some of the comments that the man made were “You can’t kill me.”, “They are giving me to the government.” and “They are going to kill me.”

9/17/2007 14:38
SUPPLEMENT
DE JESUS JR, PABLO
052
DEJESUS
9/18/2007
12:52

On September 17, 2007, at approximately 1352 hrs, I was working an overtime assignment at the University Auditorium in reference to Accent’s guest speaker Senator John Kerry. I was
located on the west side of the stage area providing security for Senator Kerry. The event consisted of Kerry’s speech and a question and answer session. Before the question and
answer session commenced, it was stated that they would limit the number of questions to at least 6 questions due to Kerry’s limited time. Kerry answered approximately 8 questions
when it was stated that there would be one more question taken after Kerry finished answering the current one. At this point there were approximately a dozen other subjects
that did not get to ask Kerry their questions.

Shortly thereafter an angry white male in the line for questions, Andrew W. Meyer, forced himself on the microphone, displayed his agitation with Senator Kerry for making him wait in
line, stopping the question and answer session, and not allowing him to speak. He stated in a loud disorderly manner that he was “sick of listening to Kerry’s crap for the past two hours”
and demanded to be allowed to ask his question. He also excitedly stated as Ofc. W. Wise #501 and Ofc. N. Mallo #48 approached him, before making contact or exchanging words,
that they were going “to arrest me for trying to ask my question”. I also approached Meyer from my posted location to possibly assist Mallo and Wise if Meyer behavior escalated any
further.

Meyer was told that he would be granted the opportunity to speak by Senator Kerry after he finished answering the question that Meyer interrupted. Before I returned to my post I
observed Meyer hand a digital hand-held camera to white female he was present with, and it appeared that he instructed her to film his interaction. When Kerry permitted Meyer to
speak, he began ranting without asking a specific question to Senator Kerry. He shared a book with Kerry and congratulated Kerry for winning the 2004 election. He became
inappropriately vulgar when he asked Kerry why he is not for impeaching Bush; after relating Bush’s conduct in office to President Clinton’s impeachment based on a “blow job”.

He also accused Kerry of being a member of the “Skull and Bones” society. Shortly after that statement, the Accent staff cut off Meyer’s microphone and Mallo and Wise attempted to escort Meyer out of the building. Meyer became actively resistant by pushing and flailing away from Mallo and Wise. The potential for officer injury was present based on the locations of Mallo and Wise in the auditorium isle next to fixed wooden folding seats; I drew out my department issued X-26 taser to respond to Meyer’s active physical resistance and/or to possibly gain compliance from Meyer. I gave Meyer verbal commands to “put your hands behind your back,” but he continued his active physical resistance. I was promptly non-verbally directed, by shaking his head no, to re-holster the X-26 by Sergeant King #32. 

Sgt. King then responded to Meyer’s resistance by attempting to control and escort him out of the building. Meyer continued to struggle and got tangled up with Sgt. King. It appeared that they both lost their footing and fell to the floor at of the top of the isle in between the fixed wooden seats on the west side of the auditorium. Once Meyer was on the ground, Sgt.
King and Wise attempted to restrain Meyer. He continued to resist by bucking and trying to roll away. Ofc. Sexton #73 and Ofc. Lamb #65 attempted to restrain Meyer’s legs which were
flailing about. The struggle continued before compliance could be gained.

I managed to take control of Meyer’s right hand and restrain it into one side of my handcuffs. Due to Meyer’s erratic flailing, the inability to attain Meyer’s left arm from his resistance,
and increased potential for injury with one cuff on, Sgt. King attempted to deploy a contact tase to no avail. He then instructed Mallo to apply a contact tase to gain compliance in order to place Meyer’s left hand into the other cuff. Mallo gave verbal commands and informed Meyer that he would be tased if he did not comply. Once Mallo applied the tase, Wise
assisted Meyer’s left arm to where I was able to apply the other cuff. Once he was restrained, he was escorted out of the Auditorium where I checked the fitting and applied the
double-locked function on the cuffs.

Ofc. Wise and myself returned to the auditorium to provide security for the duration of the
function and assist Ofc. Dean #86 and Ofc. Passero #54 in escorting Kerry to his vehicle.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 September 2007)

drmb said:


> The guy Andrew Meyer has a history of "pranks" and set ups. What you don't see in the vids is the lead up to the questions, when Andrew Meyer taunts the cops before he starts asking his questions - he asks "you going to arrest me. You going to tase me?"  read the police reports of the incidents, it's verifiable by witnesses - draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Excerpt below (entire extract too long for ASF)
> 
> .




Thanks for that. 

It now appears clear that he set it up. Police are human. This guy manipulated a democratic forum for his own ends.

Garpal


----------



## numbercruncher (25 September 2007)

Just received a entertaining email about the effects of Tasering, if it unappropriate please delete.



> > >TO KEEP US SAFE IN SA!!!>
> 
> >>Don't agree with the final testing solution, I have some Colleagues who
> 
> ...


----------



## drmb (25 September 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks for that. It now appears clear that he set it up. Police are human. This guy manipulated a democratic forum for his own ends. Garpal




Not only did he apparently set it up, but he appears to have carried the camera into the meeting, to give to a female companion, just before his tirade. Just before the hissy fit, he asks the cops "Are you going to arrest me? Are you going to tase me?" Then just before he starts asking his questions to Kerry, he checks with the female, "Are you taping this? Do you have this? You ready?” 

See vid http://video.nbc6.net/player/?id=157250#videoid=157250

Email from UF student Tyler Antar who was there, and was at the other microphone waiting to ask his question ----

"So I went to the John Kerry town hall forum this morning trying to get students registered to vote. I run a student government organization called Chomp the Vote. Anyway I went inside to watch the event. Senator Kerry took the podium and began delivering a speech about the Middle East, Iraq, dimplomacy, etc. Anyway, after he was done, a university ambassador asked Kerry a few premade questions. Once that was over, Senator Kerry announced he would take questions from the students. There were two
microphones placed on each side of the aisle. One on my side and the other on Andrew Meyer’s side. Senator Kerry began answering the student’s questions from each aisle. Eventually it was announced that there would only be a few more questions answered. Since Meyer and I were both in the back of each line, it did not seem likely that our questions would be answered.

However, while Senator Kerry was responding to a student’s question, all of a sudden Meyer rushed to the microphone with cops in pursuit. At that point no one knew what was going on. Could he have a gun, a bomb? Immediately, Meyer began yelling into the microphone that he had been waiting in line forever and that Senator Kerry should “spend time to answer everyone’s questions!” Senator Kerry tried to calm the student down by telling him that he would “stay here as long as it takes to get the questions answered.” The police approached Meyer who began taunting them by saying “what! are you going to taser me? are you going to arrest me?!” The police grabbed Meyer, but Senator Kerry asked the police to let him go and that he would answer his question. Senator Kerry finished answering the other student’s question and then proceeded with Meyer. (This entire scene is not in any video I can find so far. This is why 2 cops are seen right behind Meyer at the start of some videos*).

Meyer approached the microphone and began to talk about a book he had which stated that Kerry won the 2004 election because of isenfranchisement of black voters and faulty voter machines that produced “Bush” as the winner. He then posed another question about why President Bush had not been impeached. “President Clinton was impeached because of a blowjob, why not Bush?”. The third and strangest question he posed to Senator Kerry was asking him if he was part of the skull and bones society with Bush at
Yale. Meyer’s mic cut off after that, probably because he had mentioned the word “blowjob”. The cops grabbed him, but Meyer was able to get away several times. Eventually more cops were brought in to help subdue Meyer. Meyer continued to resist arrest, scream, curse; however he was enventually subdued by about six cops up around the entrance. As he is on the ground, he is told several times to put his hands around his back. He is also warned that he will be tasered if he does not comply. Eventually he is tasered twice. The video does not show whether he complied or not.

Senator Kerry was trying to answer his question to the audience, mostly the one about faulty voter machines. I am a die hard conservative Republican but I do respect Senator Kerry for trying to soothe the situation as best he could and trying not to escalate the situation. He DID intervene by letting the student at least present his question. I never received an opportunity to ask my question, but when Senator Kerry ended the show after the Meyer incident, he did come off stage to shake hands and give autographs. At that point, I was able to ask him my question, shake his hand, and get a autograph at the same time. Now why couldn’t Andrew Meyer do that?

I don’t know if this is relevant or not, but Andrew Meyer is a former sports writer for the school newspaper The Alligator. In his columns, he has been known to make ridiculous statements in order to gain attention for himself. Was today a publicity stunt?"


QED - he set it up - Chaser style - but not so funny

There are always two sides to any story, but I prefer to stick with my original assumption, once the police in the US give you a clear direction and order, you MUST obey them! Argue about it afterwards in court if you want to, but to disobey a direction from a police officer, and then to resist, is to ask for strong response, which Mr Meyer not to his surprise no doubt, found out


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## 2020hindsight (25 September 2007)

here's the full story
 .

In a healthy democracy he would have been allowed to ask those questions
In a police state he wouldn't.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=205116&highlight=trigger#post205116
see , getting down to monsyllables now,
 University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum

if you look at that second mentioned youtube - you only have to watch 15 seconds or so - you will see them make the decision to arrest him after he says the word "Bush"

It's abc stuff - anyone trying to defend those police (assuming a fair trial in a healthy democratic state) would lose.  

See - have a look at time line 00:05s - they are letting him ask his question, 
then he mentions "impeach Bush"
then  2 seconds later!! - see the picture at 00:07s - they all swing to the camera and decide (almost immediately - actually the hand across the throat signal is given at 00:10s) - to arrest him. 

So he was arrested for mentioning Bush.
If he hadn't mentioned Bush he'd be ok


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## 2020hindsight (25 September 2007)

Of course you can argue that the rules of that country (USA) mean that he was disobeying a political command / directive.  - possibly even lawful in that country ..

so also then these monks should be removed and/or tasered yes?

And for Bush to complain about human rights abuses   - see that's his problem - he is on such shakey grounds ... 
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/25/2043032.htm?section=justin


> Burmese junta threatens action against further protests
> Posted 3 hours 53 minutes ago
> 
> 
> ...


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## drmb (25 September 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> In a healthy democracy he would have been allowed to ask those questions
> In a police state he wouldn't.(




Hindsight, with respect, I think you just don't get it. Meyers set up the incident to get publicity. Read the police evidence, read the independent observer's email. He got his 15 minutes of fame that he was after!


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## 2020hindsight (25 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Hindsight, with respect, I think you just don't get it. Meyers set up the incident to get publicity. Read the police evidence, read the independent observer's email. He got his 15 minutes of fame that he was after!



lol - what's wrong with that ? - 
sheesh. 

drmb , I would claim that you would be laughed out of an Australian court on those grounds, if that's the extent of your problem with his behaviour


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## wayneL (25 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Meyers set up the incident to get publicity. Read the police evidence, read the independent observer's email. He got his 15 minutes of fame that he was after!



I don't think that's the point at all. It may be relevant to the actions of the police in ejecting him, but it's irrelevant to being tased inappropriately, which is what the thread is about.

But those police reports are almost comedic in their inaccuracy and spin, particularly the first one. LOL 

That's alright though, just justifying themselves.


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## rederob (25 September 2007)

drmb said:


> Hindsight, with respect, I think you just don't get it. Meyers set up the incident to get publicity. Read the police evidence, read the independent observer's email. He got his 15 minutes of fame that he was after!



Very dumb remark!
Meyers never had control of the situation, so was not able to "set up" anything.
It was John Kerry that had top billing, and only through his good grace to receive more questions did Meyers get a look in.
Meyers attracted the attention of police because of how he jumped his queue got the next question in. 
Meyers handed over his videocam to a girl he never knew - at least she states unequivocally that she never had met him before - so there was not a great deal of planning that went into this by Meyers.
Two police involved have been suspended pending further inquiries, so their actions were, prima facie, beyond what could reasonably have been expected in the situation.
In my university days the "radicals" always got to ask their politically skewed, often rambling, questions of visiting "establishment" speakers.  There was regular heckling, interjections, tension, jeering and bad manners.
Most guest speakers (then and now) knew how to handle these situations and their answers - whether we agreed with them or not - won over any lingering tensions.
The fact that Meyers is a wannabe media tart (not getting off to the best of starts) is not, as Wayne points out, the principal issue.
It appears we should all hand over to police our right to freedom of speech, and never question this overarching authority they have - if we are to believe a few posters in this thread - on fear of grave retribution (and subsequent arrest for acting against those who actively remove those rights from us.
In a democracy the police should be the protectors of our rights, not those that take them away because...   well, I'm not sure why in Meyers' case because charges against him were based on his reaction to the police that had no grounds for arresting him in the first place.
Being rude, attention seeking and an idiot are not grounds for arrest!


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## cuttlefish (25 September 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> But those police reports are almost comedic in their inaccuracy and spin, particularly the first one. LOL




yeah I agree the police reports are filled with inaccuracies and conflict with what is actually visible on the video, which makes you wonder at the accuracy of their recollection of the events prior to the video commencing.

The anecdotes of one staunch republican student aren't exactly compelling evidence either, though the account does read credibly enough even though we can verifty the accuracy of it. In it I can't see anything that adds particularly to the story.  The only additional information I can see in it is that prior to the video being shot Meyers went to the mike and interrupted to ask Kerry to stay and answer everybody's questions, to which Kerry agreed.


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## disarray (25 September 2007)

rederob said:


> Being rude, attention seeking and an idiot are not grounds for arrest!




yes they are. public nuisance, drunk and disorderly, offensive behaviour laws all regulate how much of an asshole you can be in public.

and he wasn't going to be arrested, he was going to be ejected. he was only arrested after he became violent.


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## rederob (25 September 2007)

disarray said:


> yes they are. public nuisance, drunk and disorderly, offensive behaviour laws all regulate how much of an asshole you can be in public.
> 
> and he wasn't going to be arrested, he was going to be ejected. he was only arrested after he became violent.



Given that I didn't mention the things you claim, you only answer your own question.
Oh, and he was being ejected for asking questions at a forum where the speaker invited questions, and was even willing to answer the questions as Meyers was being dragged out of the forum.
Yes, I can see the logic in that.


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## 2020hindsight (27 September 2007)

people with the courage to protest when they don't like what their leaders are doing - whether vocalised or not.  
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/27/2045621.htm


> Police issue ultimatum to Burma protesters
> Posted 1 hour 56 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 32 minutes ago
> .....
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (25 October 2007)

o boy - a man is shot after he's blinded with capsicum spray !!

He would have been completely blinded - then he would have felt bullet wound. 

and that's put forward as a reason to get tasers 



> *Police say they used capsicum spray before shooting the man,* who they say was throwing knives at them.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/25/2070042.htm?section=justin



> Oppn wants stun guns for Qld police
> Posted 34 minutes ago
> 
> *The Queensland Opposition says the police shooting of a man at Gatton in the state's south-east highlights the need for officers to be issued with stun guns*.
> ...


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## Ageo (25 October 2007)

Well what do you expect when throwing knives at the police? for them to not use their weapon? i bet he will re-think his actions next time he is in a similar situation.


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## professor_frink (25 October 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> o boy - a man is shot after he's blinded with capsicum spray !!
> 
> He would have been completely blinded - then he would have felt bullet wound.
> 
> ...




If they were anything more than butter knives, then good on the coppers.

I do agree with you though 2020- what do they need tasers for when they have guns. The guns obviously did a pretty good job here.

And where does it say that the man was blinded from the capsicum spray


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## 2020hindsight (25 October 2007)

professor_frink said:


> If they were anything more than butter knives, then good on the coppers.
> 
> I do agree with you though 2020- what do they need tasers for when they have guns. The guns obviously did a pretty good job here.
> 
> And where does it say that the man was blinded from the capsicum spray



prof, ok my assumption was that they used capsicum spray and that it hit him in the face.  (where does it say it didn't lol? )

As it reads, (and as I initially took it to mean - during quick skim of ABC "just-in" during lunch hour), 
"they used capsicum spray before shooting the man",
I thought capsicum spray was used (successfully), then they shot him.  But I concede there is an assumption in there.  

But I'll happily stand corrected on that IF it turns out that they were NOT able to mace him in the face for some reason (would be a first surely).   

My guess is that you're not suggesting that OC spray (pepper spray) doesn't temporarily blind you once you are hit. (?)
i.e. that you'd agree that it forces you to close your eyes (?). 



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray)
> If *in contact with eyes it causes automatic closing of the eyes due to intense pain if open. This along with a feeling of suffocating if inhaled it causes the person to be very vulnerable and dependent*, *resulting in easy overpowering *(for example, law enforcement officials over a suspect).






> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/25/2069603.htm
> Police shoot knife-wielding man in south-east Qld
> A man has been shot during an altercation with Queensland police at Gatton, near Toowoomba, in the state s south-east. Police say they attended a domestic disturbance around 10pm AEST, where they were confronted by a 27-year-old man who threatened them with a knife.




Incidentally ... This post is from February ( different incident , same area).  Gatton sounds like a wild spot. 



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/02/14/1847650.htm
> Teen to face court over Gatton stabbing
> Posted Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:00pm AEDT
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (25 October 2007)

Appreciate your comments, explod - 
Would you say that OC spray is adequate for most incidents/ circumstances?

or rather - would it be necessary to do anything in addition to OC spray (IF it was successfully applied). (?)

btw, as per my original post, I would argue that knives prior to then arguably become irrelevant to the argument - or at least irrelevant to the point I was making, or trying to make -  if they were able to OC spray him (imo). 


Not that this stuff is harmless either ..... 
Here's a better wikipedia reference to OC spray... (mace being ambiguous apparently) ..


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
> Pepper spray is an inflammatory agent as opposed to an irritant like Mace. It causes immediate closing of the eyes, difficulty breathing, runny nose, and coughing. The duration of its effects depend on the strength of the spray but the average full effect lasts around thirty to forty-five minutes, with diminished effects lasting for hours.
> 
> The Journal of Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science published a study that concluded that single exposure of the eye to OC is harmless, but repeated exposure can result in long-lasting changes in corneal sensitivity. They found no lasting decrease in visual acuity.[4]
> ...


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## explod (25 October 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Appreciate your comments, explod -
> Would you say that OC spray is adequate for most incidents/ circumstances?
> 
> or rather - would it be necessary to do anything in addition to OC spray (IF it was successfully applied). (?)
> ...




I am unable to help objectively 2020..., as the use of OC spray was just being approved for use operationally at the time of my retirement.  I had seen its effects in experimental demonstrations and it is very effective if conditions are right, eg., no wind and direct application.

The other problem I have is the growing links between lawmaking, peacekeeping and government.  In my view the principals of the Westminster system, such as impartiality, a fair go and innocent unless found guilty are now out the door.   Discussions about the (draconian) use of sprays and electric shocks to fellow humans is disgusting so say the least and I want none of it.


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## 2020hindsight (25 October 2007)

thanks for that explod - 
needs more research 

I notice that the wikipedia page ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

makes reference to the fact that some facts are disputed, and refers you to a "talk page"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pepper_spray
.... later 



> Internationally pepper spray is banned for use in war by the 1972 Biological Weapons convention but not for internal security use.
> 
> In Western Australia, it is legal for a person to carry pepper spray for lawful defense, if that person has, on reasonable grounds, a suspicion or belief that he or she will require the pepper spray to defend himself or herself. However, the person found carrying the pepper spray carries the burden of proving a "reasonable belief or suspicion" rather than the prosecution. In all other states and territories in Australia, pepper spray is considered illegal.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (26 October 2007)

ps they call it "bear spray" in Canada


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## professor_frink (26 October 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> prof, ok my assumption was that they used capsicum spray and that it hit him in the face.  (where does it say it didn't lol? )




That's a good point



2020hindsight said:


> As it reads, (and as I initially took it to mean - during quick skim of ABC "just-in" during lunch hour),
> "they used capsicum spray before shooting the man",
> I thought capsicum spray was used (successfully), then they shot him.  But I concede there is an assumption in there.
> 
> ...




Correct, I'm not suggesting that at all. If they shot him, either they couldn't get close enough to get a good hit on him with the spray and were still in danger, or it didn't have the desired effect if they did get him. Or the coppers were trigger happy maniacs. All of which are wild assumptions based on a very short article. Will have to wait to find out the full story at a later date I guess


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## 2020hindsight (26 October 2007)

The story (sorta) unfolds - the Qld Police Minister doesn't want tasers "rolled out" - except ... not sure I believe 100% of what I read in these matters (especially reportedly said by police , and ExtraSPecially said by pollies ) 

I agree with the bottom line of what she's saying (re tasers)
.. although the detail is getting real mirky / confused. 

Personally, I'd like her to confirm whether or not (as she infers) a man blinded with OC spray was then shot.  


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/26/2070886.htm
> Taser wouldn't have helped in Gatton incident: Spence
> Posted 3 hours 59 minutes ago
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (16 November 2007)

this thread has always had two themes 
a) the use of force to stop someone talking at a political meeting
b) the use of tasers by police
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=325084
man killed by canadian mounties
"they always get their man !" 
  Taser death at Vancouver airport


> Caution: This video involves the Tasering death of a human being. If the content is likely to bother you, don't watch.
> 
> Paul Pritchard, the bystander who vidoetaped the minutes leading up to the Tasering and eventual death of Robert Dziekanski by RCMP officers at Vancouver airport last month finally has his footage back and released it.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (16 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> this thread has always had two themes
> a) the use of force to stop someone talking at a political meeting
> b) the use of tasers by police
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=325084
> ...




you would have to conclude that the "Royal" Canadian Mounted Police are a collective bunch of liars on this occasion


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## zenny (2 October 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Read      "The Good Soldier Å vejk and His Fortunes in the World War" , by Jarslav Hasek.
> 
> Although a work of fiction it displays how with single minded dedication, a low IQ and a capacity to soak up military and police maltreatment, one man was able to bring the Austro-Hungarian empire to its knees. Svejk appears to possess similar personal attributes to the taser turkey.
> 
> ...




"Å vejk represents
one of the most unique and successful
survival strategies ever conceived by man."

To learn about "Å¡vejking" [sh-vake-ing] - visit SvejkCentral-dot-com. 

The more you know the more you'll appreciate the difference between the currently prevalent translation you've read and the new translation, _The Fateful Adventures of the Good Soldier Å vejk During the World War _at zenny-dot-com


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