# Insider trading?



## soren_lorensen (19 October 2009)

hey does the asx market seem rampant with insider trading, 

just my own observation,

Stocks have a nice move up and then low and behold a few days later, some nice positive news.

i'm sure there are plenty of examples

MOL recently.

what are you thoughts on this issue, have there been many legal cases delving into this area?


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## nunthewiser (19 October 2009)

No, everything is above board , it is a level playing field, definitely no instances of listed companies leaking info to those that matter  and the ASX Feds are on top of it all ............... 



:bs:


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## Naked shorts (19 October 2009)

Mate insider trading has always, and always will be rampant in the markets, there is no way to completely stop it, and attempting to stop it just makes it more profitable for the people getting away with it.

Even if you do not have access to inside information, you can still make plenty of money off it and plenty of people do it every day. Get used to the fact it happens and its not going away and you will be better poised to understand different movements in the market

/end rant


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## soren_lorensen (19 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> no everything is above board , it is a level playing field, definately no instances of listed companies leaking info to those that matter  and the asx feds are on top of it all ...............
> 
> 
> 
> :bs:




thanks nun and get the sarcasm, anyway has there been any companies/people been charged with this? seems like this is rife and no-one cares or look the other way.


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## nunthewiser (19 October 2009)

soren_lorensen said:


> thanks nun and get the sarcasm, anyway has there been any companies/people been charged with this? seems like this is rife and no-one cares or look the other way.





Most public one I recall was Rene Rivkin , he was charged and prosecuted.  There are a few more instances out there but its a more of a seldom thing to be caught than not caught .........


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## Timmy (19 October 2009)

Hey you lot, (except Naked Shorts) read Joe's post from today, here:

Capitalisation, spelling and grammar

Thank-you


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## Naked shorts (19 October 2009)

Timmy said:


> Hey you lot, (except Naked Shorts) read Joe's post from today, here:
> 
> Capitalisation, spelling and grammar
> 
> Thank-you




Haha I didn't even see that post. Just goes to show good habits pay off.


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## shag (21 October 2009)

dml was an example yesterday and today. a nice push/unusual movement and then a capital raising anouncement today.
most of my mates would be too pious to do it, imo, but sadly that seems to be the exception, and so blatant.
as they said at uni(and was generally correct), cheating benefits no one, and you would hope the same is true for this.
we were fortunate to attend during a period where regulation of this-cheating, was generally unecessary and unmonitored. i suspect its not quite so today.
the asx seems cowboy territory to me.


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## Agentm (21 October 2009)

shag said:


> dml was an example yesterday and today. a nice push/unusual movement and then a capital raising anouncement today.
> most of my mates would be too pious to do it, imo, but sadly that seems to be the exception, and so blatant.
> as they said at uni(and was generally correct), cheating benefits no one, and you would hope the same is true for this.
> we were fortunate to attend during a period where regulation of this-cheating, was generally unecessary and unmonitored. i suspect its not quite so today.
> the asx seems cowboy territory to me.




a few weeks back EKA did a cap raising..

they did it on a monday..  to sophisticated investors (look at the announcements from yesterday and you will see whom benefited)

on the friday before, the company was told that a massive farm out deal was secured, they had all weekend to study it.

on the monday after an hour the company went into a trading halt..

the other companies in the jvp traded till midday then put out the joint announcement of the farm out.. their shares rocketed..

now get this,, the eka deal was 3.4 cents..  and when it came out of its trading halt it traded at .07 and went as high as 9..  currently .065

instead of trading the share and stopping any dilution, the company basically issued shares that immediately went 100% up.. only to close friends and supporters of the share..

what do you call that??


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## jayinoz (23 October 2009)

*Insider trading and Director BUYS*

I see it every other day on many of the stocks I have on my watch lists.

Some inside trades are very obvious, whereas others are far more careful.

In general it is foolish for Directors to directly buy shares then release good news shortly after. Typically I have found that they have made their trades long before the great news. In hindsight they would have known the probability of a good outcome.

*It is FACT that 'On Market' Director buys outperform the market by over 70% year on year.*

Now how many close family and friends have they got to invest in the meantime. ASX does not have any chance to prosecute and chase up all these inside trades. The only thing you can do is monitor the market and play the game. Ultimately know that greed is human nature.

Having Directors whom have been in my extended family I have heard a lot of stories. Some are pure inside trades whilst others would be on the supposed borderline grey area.

Grey area can be that the Directors knows that they will achieve to get this or that contract, or achieve a certain production target. Yet they can claim they did not know for sure and anything could have happened. 

You would be niave to think that Directors whom are signing contracts between each other would not put off the signing until they have all sorted out their personal deals.

Yet be careful in purely buying because a Director buys, as many may have say 50 million shares then purchase what looks like a huge puchase of 1 million shares. They could be trying to artificially push up the price to offload a much larger amount.

After years of trades and monitoring Director trades it is amazing what many attempt to get away with...


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## chrisalex (25 October 2009)

nunthewiser, I think you made reference to Renee Rivken being charged with
insider trading. This was an absolute malicious witch hunt perpetrated by 
overpaid and under worked bureaucrats trying to justify their own existence.
I followed this case from the beginning. My feelings are that after the fact, manslaughter charges should have been instigated. Heavy words for a 
disgusting event.
  chrisalex.


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## nulla nulla (25 October 2009)

On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of last week, mig was short traded in the range of 36 to 46 percent of turnover compared to a previous daily average of less than 10%. On Friday it is announced that Ontario Teachers fund unloaded 244 million shares at $1.40, being a 9% discount to the close of trade on thurday of $1.54. 
Someone appears to have made arround about 10c per share on larger than normal volume of shorting in the previous 4 days. If this is insider trading, can we expect the ASIC to investigate it and prosecute the participants? 
This would have been on a far grander scale than that of Renee Rivkins dabble with Qantas that saw him charged, convicted and incarcerated.


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## Wysiwyg (26 October 2009)

ASX "please explain" letters to companies get the 3 monkeys treatment because of what I highlighted below in this excerpt from a report on the "constant disclosure" rules expected of companies but obviously not adhered too. Research Report.



> • The results of this Research Report highlight and reinforce the notion already entertained by regulators that continuous disclosure compliance is an area of current concern. *Nondisclosure is a very real threat to the efficiency and integrity of Australian markets.*
> Several weaknesses in compliance have been brought to light. *Our findings* *suggest that there may be inherent incentives for non-disclosure*, and that there is room for improvement in compliance by listed companies with the Australian continuous disclosure regime.




The "inherent incentives" are obvious. Get in and out before the majority but at the moment, the 3 monkeys are laughing.


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## Wysiwyg (26 October 2009)

Excerpt from same report below. Number 6, market reassessment and number 9 speculation on next ann. covers pretty much any "unusual" price movement.

The reasoning (or any of these will do) ...

1) *Broker Research* ..... This category was used when a company pointed to a recently published broker report that recommended a trade in the direction of the price fluctuation.

2) *Recent change in substantial shareholding* ..... Several companies indicated that a major shareholder had recently finished a trading a large number of shares, which had eased buy or sell pressure on the securities.

3) *Commodity prices* ..... Some companies with commodity bases attributed price movements to a similar change in the respective commodity market.

4) *Considering new investment opportunities* ..... Numerous companies made a non-committal statement indicating that they were pursuing certain ‘new’ investments. This category is particularly relevant to junior exploration companies seeking opportunities in e-commerce or technology.

5) *Industry activity* ..... General public interest in, or speculation on, a particular industry was sometimes ascribed as the cause for a movement in a stock within that sector.

6) *Market reassessment* ..... A number of companies suggested that the movement was in line with a market recognition of growth or value (or lack thereof), or a revaluation in the light of recent announcements and events.

7) *Media attention* ..... This classification covers instances where a company drew attention to a particular media article or general press consideration of the company, its prospects and or its activities.

8) *Negotiations*..... This category was used to cover statements to the effect that the company was in negotiations that were sufficiently uncertain as to warrant non-disclosure.

9) *Speculation on next announcement* ..... Where an announcement was known to the market to be imminent, for example where an announcement that a report on operations would soon be forthcoming had already been made, companies suggested that the fluctuation could be market conjecture as to the outcome of the announcement.

10) *Recent announcements* ..... Many companies drew the attention of ASX to one or more recent announcements in particular, or simply to ‘recent announcements’ in general.

11) *Roadshows* ..... Some companies indicated that variation may be due to demand arising from recent roadshows of the company’s securities.


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## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2016)

If I hear a tip from someone who knows someone who knows someone, and the tip is "buy up now, could be an announcement soon", is this.... um....ok?

At the time it didn't worry me, but now I'm needing some reassurance.  I haven't bought any stock as yet.


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## systematic (12 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> If I hear a tip from someone who knows someone who knows someone, and the tip is "buy up now, could be an announcement soon", is this.... um....ok?
> 
> At the time it didn't worry me, but now I'm needing some reassurance.  I haven't bought any stock as yet.




You asked if it was, "okay" but I'm going to answer as though you asked, "does this meet the criteria of insider trading?" and it does.


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## Roller_1 (12 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> If I hear a tip from someone who knows someone who knows someone, and the tip is "buy up now, could be an announcement soon", is this.... um....ok?
> 
> At the time it didn't worry me, but now I'm needing some reassurance.  I haven't bought any stock as yet.




Do you think the relevant authorities are gong to investigate your share holding? I'd be more worried about getting screwed from a game of Chinese whispers


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## levin123 (12 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> If I hear a tip from someone who knows someone who knows someone, and the tip is "buy up now, could be an announcement soon", is this.... um....ok?
> 
> At the time it didn't worry me, but now I'm needing some reassurance.  I haven't bought any stock as yet.




Sounds like a pretty tenuous link to me..  If I PM'd you now and said the same thing, would that be insider trading? No I wouldn't think so. Unless you are aware of a clear link from the company down the chain, I would think it's alright. But just my opinion.


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## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2016)

Yeh, I'm leaving it alone.  

Thanks for the feedback all.


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