# Chaos in Australian Education



## dutchie (12 December 2012)

Australian school children are well behind a host of other countries when it comes to reading, mathematics and science, according to a new report.

The Progress in International Reading Literacy Study has revealed that a quarter of Australia's year 4 students failed to meet the minimum standard in reading for their age.

Australia ranked 27th out of 48 countries in reading, with its mean score similar to that recorded by New Zealand, Poland and Lithuania.

Another analysis, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), revealed results have not improved for Australian students since 1995.

"The Government's so-called education revolution has been exposed as an abject failure."


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## DocK (12 December 2012)

My frustration with the current debate about education is that it seems totally focussed on money, rather than quality.  I'm not an expert in the field, but my impression was that those countries with the highest literacy and numeracy standards were also those that had higher standards required of their teachers.  To my mind you need to go back to the source if you want to change the outcome - teachers (esp early childhood) have sooo much influence on a child's desire to learn and on those formative years that the rest of their education develops from.  I think society should both demand a higher standard and accountability from their children's teachers, but should also value them much more as a result.  Lift the tertiary requirements to study teaching and raise the salary in turn.  After all, when you pay peanuts you get monkeys and is this what we want tfor our country's kids?  Laptops, school pools and halls, even class sizes are all secondary to the crucial matters of expertise and discipline.  If a teacher is in the profession because they want to be, rather than it's what they settled for with a mediocre OP/ATR, and has the ability and desire to inspire kids in their early years then I reckon we'd see our standards lift.  A child who still can't read and can barely count after the first two years of school is going to be up against it no matter what curriculum changes, class sizes, technological availability or myschool websites are put in place.

In some areas the battle is purely on getting the kids to school in the first place - if schools in these areas are allowed to use the best methods for their particular demographic, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach, they'd maybe have better outcomes.


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## tinhat (12 December 2012)

Right on DocK. in 2009 when the NAPLAN results confirmed that QLD continued to lag the other states for primary school literacy and numeracy, then premier Bligh commissioned an inquiry. The findings of the inquiry can be summarized as "Your kids are illiterate and innumerate (relative to other states) because your teachers are illiterate and innumerate". When surveyed, even Qld teachers felt they were less prepared to teach maths and science than teachers from other states.

http://education.qld.gov.au/mastersreview/pdfs/final-report-masters.pdf

I don't have any kids but I have some involvement with the local primary school. The school is over capitalised in terms of buildings in my opinion. The building the education revolution stimulus spending probably worked in terms of short-term fiscal stimulus but it pissed a lot of money up against the wall.


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## white_goodman (12 December 2012)

look at the top performing countries... its not just a case of throwing money at things = results... smaller class sizes does not equal results (Japan for eg), its an interesting debate, atleast we've got some good models to benchmark against if our feudal overlords in Canberra wish to undertake some study.


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## Julia (12 December 2012)

Agree that the standard of teachers is a large part of the problem.  I've been part of a mentoring program in both primary and secondary state schools for about ten years and I'm just blown away by the inadequacy of the teachers.  Another issue is the behaviour of the children:  often it's so obnoxious the teacher spends much of the lesson time trying to manage disruptive little sods.

I gather teaching is not a very popular career choice these days, understandably enough.  So the entrance scores have been dropped, as Dock suggests, to admit people who are just not up to the job.

I wonder, too, about all the 'social stuff' the curriculum is supposed to cover.  Seems to me that esoteric discussions about climate change etc and other government dictated propaganda are given more weight than the more fundamental and necessary skills of literacy and numeracy.


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## Calliope (15 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Agree that the standard of teachers is a large part of the problem.  I've been part of a mentoring program in both primary and secondary state schools for about ten years and I'm just blown away by the inadequacy of the teachers.  Another issue is the behaviour of the children:  often it's so obnoxious the teacher spends much of the lesson time trying to manage disruptive little sods.
> 
> I gather teaching is not a very popular career choice these days, understandably enough.  So the entrance scores have been dropped, as Dock suggests, to admit people who are just not up to the job.
> 
> I wonder, too, about all the 'social stuff' the curriculum is supposed to cover.  Seems to me that esoteric discussions about climate change etc and other government dictated propaganda are given more weight than the more fundamental and necessary skills of literacy and numeracy.




Union interference and poor teacher training will never improve under Labor and this means Gillard's rhetoric about raising educations standards is just hot air.



> Given Australia's appalling results in the recent Progress in International Reading Literacy Study test, where our students are ranked 27th in terms of literacy and the fact that universities now have to conduct remedial classes in essay writing and syntax, something needs to be done.
> 
> The solution favoured by cultural-left educationalists is to copy Finland - a nation whose students are ranked among the top performers in the Program for International Student Assessment Tests. Leftists argue that in Finland, there are no non-government schools, teachers are respected and well paid and - unlike the traditional pedagogy in places like Shanghai and Singapore - education is child-centred and new-age.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nland-and-sweden/story-e6frgd0x-1226553872618


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## Tink (5 August 2015)

*Kids not improving in literacy, numeracy*

_The reading, writing and maths skills of Australian schools students have basically stagnated since national testing started seven years ago.

NAPLAN results released on Wednesday show that nationally, student achievement has stalled since 2008 leading Australia's chief scientist Ian Chubb to warn it should be a wake-up call.

The head of the Australian Curriculum, Assessment and Reporting Authority Robert Randall says while stability is good, the community will expect more improvement over time.
That will only happen when student learning improves.

"Literacy and numeracy are the foundations of learning at and beyond school," Mr Randall said in a statement.
"If student knowledge, skills and understanding are not improving in these areas, it is a cause for reflection."

Education Minister Christopher Pyne says for results to lift the focus needs to turn to the coalition's four pillars of education: curriculum, teacher quality, parental engagement and school autonomy.
"It's not about money, it's actually about the basics of school education," he told ABC radio.

Although results overall remained stable, there were some national improvements in specific areas, notably in Year 3 reading and Year 5 numeracy.
However, writing results for Year 7 and 9 students have dropped since 2011.

Professor Chubb says the broad direction of maths results, both in national testing and on international scales, was not good for Australia.
"Given that maths is so central to so much of what we do and so much of what we will need to do then there's a wake-up call for us," he told ABC radio.
"And we've got to do something about it soon."

The NAPLAN results have been released two weeks earlier than in previous years, after a government push for a faster turnaround._

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...iteracy-numeracy/story-fn3dxiwe-1227470467451


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## Tisme (5 August 2015)

Seems NAPLAN is a useful tool afterall.


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## SirRumpole (5 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> Seems NAPLAN is a useful tool afterall.




And that's what it should be regarded as, a tool or guide to the merits or deficiencies of the system nation wide.

You need to be able to measure the results of what you are doing in any field, and if you don't then you certainly can't manage what you are doing.


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## sptrawler (5 August 2015)

All goes back, to teaching isn't a calling any more, it is a job with great holidays, reasonable pay and conditions.

It also, since being incorporated as a degree, has one of the lowest entrance requirements.

Which is understandable, as it shouldn't be a university based learned profession, it should be mainly workplace based training. 

The first requirement of a teacher should be a passion to teach, the second requirement should be the ability to engage and hold the children's attention.

What they are teaching, has been taught for the last century, mathematics, english, science and social studies haven't changed a lot.

We aren't talking about teaching 23 year olds, nuclear physics, we are talking about teaching young kids the basics.

Which seems to be the furthest from what is happening, it was only a few years ago, the times table and mental arithmetic, was dropped from the curriculum. Probably because the teachers didn't know them.IMO

It is about time nursing and teaching, were returned to workplace based training programmes.


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## sptrawler (5 August 2015)

Is this the result of a poor education system?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-...face-death-after-lured-drug-smuggling/6675360

Or just a refection of Australian society?


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## sydboy007 (6 August 2015)

sptrawler said:


> All goes back, to teaching isn't a calling any more, it is a job with great holidays, reasonable pay and conditions.
> 
> It also, since being incorporated as a degree, has one of the lowest entrance requirements.
> 
> ...




I'd agree with what your saying if parents were more engaged with their childrens' education, but these days it's blame the teachers when it's much more the parents fault.  If a child can't read who's fault is it?  If a child can't add a few simple numbers up in their head, who's fault is that?

I hated reading as a child.  Was going to be held back a year if I didn't improve.  My mum was not going to have any of that.  For the life of me I can't imagine a time of when I didn't like reading, but in kindergarten and 1st year I just never read unless forced to, and my mum started forcing me every day after school till I started to enjoy it.

I'd hate to be a teacher in today's class room.  Children you have limited ability to control.  Cell phones ready to record the slightest slip up.  Parents pointing the finger for any perceived failing of their little treasures.  Why would you want to be a teacher when the view is it's a decent paying job with lots of holidays (just be prepared to pay double or triple to enjoy a holiday).  The lack of respect for teachers by the community is part of the problem.


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## Tisme (6 August 2015)

Being part of family that,by and large, has traditionally been educators and me, the father of similar, I can tell you that the biggest blocker to adequate outcomes is the politicisation of the Principals seats and their autonomy from real accountability of those outcomes. This occurred when the Federal Govt decided to joint venture some secondary schooling and the ripple effect gained traction.

Good teachers who stand up for their students are forced into counselling that generally comprises the Principal and hand picked deputy, naive HOD and about 3 hours of interrogation, bullying and the like. Those that don't submit/capitulate are black marked and eventually removed/hounded from the school.

In QLD, KPIs contribute to poor performing students being kicked from school after turning 17 so they can go on welfare and the school's overall performance score increases.

In QLD non academic students are relegated into classes that don't figure in the overall performance scores.

In QLD the previous govt decided to go back to the future and concentrate on simplistic course structures and eliminate nonsense subjects like E-commerce, computer programming and technology........readin', 'riting and 'rithmetic Dave Rudd style is where Newman's refocusing was at.

My gene pool is not particularly bright, but somehow we manage to produce Doctors, PHDs, top trades people, teachers, national leaders, business owners, etc and primary school was/is not considered paramount to success. 

Counted among my friends are people who have written curriculum literature, who at the apex of private schools, etc and most of them have used the public system upto year 11, then swapped them into the private environment for many reasons... that are  fairly transparent.


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

What's a "non academic" student ?


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## sptrawler (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What's a "non academic" student ?




Probably a student, who is there because they have to be, not because they have the ability or interest.


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Probably a student, who is there because they have to be, not because they have the ability or interest.




I think it's the job of the education system to spark interest in what is being taught, that is what makes good teachers. As to ability, once the interest is there students can improve their ability to absorb what they are being told.


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## sptrawler (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's the job of the education system to spark interest in what is being taught, that is what makes good teachers. As to ability, once the interest is there students can improve their ability to absorb what they are being told.




That is probably the very reason that prospective teachers, were interviewed before entering teachers training college. Same went for nurses, when training was carried out in hospitals, a major part of both professions is interpersonal skills and suitability.


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## Logique (6 August 2015)

Need I say more!



> http://www.kidsteachingkids.com.au/
> Kids Teaching Kids aims to inspire future environmental leaders.
> 
> Learn about what Kids Teaching Kids does
> ...


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## Tisme (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What's a "non academic" student ?




OK in QLD you either go down the scholastic route of OP scores and entry to tertiary or you are funneled into vocational, remedial, out the door, left on the fence, etc


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> OK in QLD you either go down the scholastic route of OP scores and entry to tertiary or you are funneled into vocational, remedial, out the door, left on the fence, etc




You mean bogans ?


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## Tisme (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You mean bogans ?




That's academic dear Watson


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## Tink (29 October 2015)

Well said, Miranda..
There is no reason for children to walk out of our National Anthem.

_It is not the fault of the Muslim children who walked out of a school assembly when the Australian national anthem was played.

It is entirely the fault of the misguided principal who offered the primary students the opportunity to walk out and who encouraged them to reject this quintessential expression of Australian identity, in the name of “diversity”.
This is not a “storm in a teacup” as one Muslim leader put it.
Nor is it a test of this country’s “understanding of difference or tolerance”.

Singing Advance Australia Fair and raising the Australian flag are purely secular expressions of allegiance to this country.
They do not conflict with religious expression.
To spurn this deeply symbolic public display of patriotism is a statement of disrespect and disloyalty, which implies a rejection of Australian values.
You would expect an Australian public school principal to understand this._

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...hat-dont-you-get/story-fnpug1jf-1227584563957

AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM

_Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair. _


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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

Agreed


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## SirRumpole (29 October 2015)

Take the names of those children and NEVER pay them any welfare benefits !

Or get them to write out the words of our beloved national anthem 500 times.


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## dutchie (29 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Take the names of those children and NEVER pay them any welfare benefits !




How will they live then?


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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> How will they live then?




of their hard working parents


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## SirRumpole (29 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> How will they live then?




I'm sure Allah will provide...


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## McLovin (29 October 2015)

Why should someone be forced to sing any song? Where is the freedom of speech crowd when you need them?


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## dutchie (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> Why should someone be forced to sing any song? Where is the freedom of speech crowd when you need them?




I did not realise that they were forced to sing.


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## McLovin (29 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> I did not realise that they were forced to sing.




Sing. Be in the room. Whatever. I didn't realise it was a requirement to access education to participate in such things. The Jehovah's Witnesses have been doing it for decades. They will not stand during or sing national anthems, or pledge allegiance. Funny how no one says a word about that.


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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> Why should someone be forced to sing any song? Where is the freedom of speech crowd when you need them?




Well there is an old notion that when you go to school you do as you are told..... quaint idea that died about the time we started letting incompatible migrants into our great brown land. 

Anyone who doesn't admit to lip syncing or even humming through closed lips would either be a good singer or a liar IMO. We weren't forced to sing, but we were forced to assembly to get our weekly dose of indoctrination into Empire and Commonwealth.....God Shave Our Queen or Oztraya all Let Us Ring Joyce.


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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> The Jehovah's Witnesses have been doing it for decades. They will not stand during or sing national anthems, or pledge allegiance. Funny how no one says a word about that.




That's not true is it  .... they were brow beaten and pariahs for long time


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## dutchie (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> Sing. Be in the room. Whatever.




There is a big difference between being in the room and being forced to sing.


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## McLovin (29 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well there is an old notion that when you go to school you do as you are told..... quaint idea that died about the time we started letting incompatible migrants into our great brown land.




You do as your told within reason. It makes no difference to the school or any other students if the religion of these children means they cannot be present during the anthem. At boarding school on Fridays they served fish as well as meat, rather than let the more observant Christian kids go hungry (and there was really only five or so), didn't affect the rest of us.


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## Tink (29 October 2015)

_There is no reason for children to walk out of our National Anthem._

So if you are at an event, you just walk out for the national anthem?
Where is the respect?

If they don't want to sing, stand there. I am sure they went through it if they became citizens.

Is it the school or the children that did this?


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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> You do as your told within reason. It makes no difference to the school or any other students if the religion of these children means they cannot be present during the anthem. At boarding school on Fridays they served fish as well as meat, rather than let the more observant Christian kids go hungry (and there was really only five or so), didn't affect the rest of us.




Did they attend assembly and sing the anthems?


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## luutzu (29 October 2015)




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## Tisme (29 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> It makes all the difference in the world!  For these reasons:
> 
> - the numbers of Muslims is growing at a very rapid pace
> - Islam, like most religions, is based in fear.  It's a religion of fear.
> ...




yeah its starting to make me wonder what a "commonwealth" of Oz means, indeed whether we are interested in being a "nation" anymore and just become a bleeding heart for the misfits of the world; we don't share much in common at all all these days.

And you are right, I think we are suffering a paralysis and have been stripped of the tools we would otherwise use to cajole or persuade people to have some pride in being part of a once secular society ....coz we sure a 5hit ain't one anymore.


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## luutzu (29 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well there is an old notion that when you go to school you do as you are told..... quaint idea that died about the time we started letting incompatible migrants into our great brown land.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't admit to lip syncing or even humming through closed lips would either be a good singer or a liar IMO. We weren't forced to sing, but we were forced to assembly to get our weekly dose of indoctrination into Empire and Commonwealth.....God Shave Our Queen or Oztraya all Let Us Ring Joyce.




that's funny.

hm hm hm... ADVANCE AUSTAYA FAIR.... hm hm hm hm ... hm hm ladi da di... ADVANCE AUSTRAYA FAIR.

ozzy1 ozzy! OI! OI! OI!


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## SirRumpole (29 October 2015)

McLovin said:


> Why should someone be forced to sing any song? Where is the freedom of speech crowd when you need them?




People shouldn't be forced to sing the National Anthem, but people like us are free to come to conclusions as to these other people's committment to our society and country.

Where does "diversity" obstruct "commonality of purpose" ? Are the "others" going to actively contribute to taking our country down their path of religious autocracy rather than our path of secular cohesion ?


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## SirRumpole (30 January 2016)

Interesting article

Labor has put Gonski back on the table, but should we be excited? 

http://theconversation.com/labor-ha...ki back on the table but should we be excited


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## Tisme (30 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting article
> 
> Labor has put Gonski back on the table, but should we be excited?
> 
> http://theconversation.com/labor-ha...ki back on the table but should we be excited




The kids might learn enough to understand the gobbledygook words linking God to DNA


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## SirRumpole (30 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> The kids might learn enough to understand the gobbledygook words linking God to DNA




You mean you didn't get it ?

I picked it up straight away.


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## Tisme (30 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You mean you didn't get it ?
> 
> I picked it up straight away.




Get it!!! All I can think about is how the getting of wisdom apparently has a high cost of losing one's common sense.


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## Tink (3 February 2016)

Supposedly in Victorian Public Schools --
_Victoria - The Uncertain State._
*
Gender politics distorts reality*

_Every now and again you read something that makes you realise that while you were busy worrying about other things some great change has occurred and things that you thought were settled beyond all reasonable doubt are in fact not settled at all.

Such a moment came to me when I read a Fairfax news report that revealed state schools in Victoria will soon have to adhere to “strict new participation guidelines aimed at tackling discrimination against transgender students in sport”. The report quoted Roz Ward, of the federal and state taxpayer-funded Safe Schools Coalition, who said: “There is a perception that so-called male bodies are physically superior.”

Ward was talking about the difficulties teenage males who identify as females have in being accepted on girls’ sports teams.

Which is unsurprising when you consider the commonly held view that, on average, males are stronger and faster than females.

Commonly held but, as Ms Ward demonstrates, not universal. For me this was not the eye-catching part of her statement. That debate has been raging since the 1970s. No, the bit that pulled me up was her reference to the “so-called male body”.

The list of contested concepts I’ve read about include “so-called friends’’, “so-called diets” ”” even the “so-called Armenian genocide” ”” but what’s all this about “the so-called male body”? While not claiming to be a close student of developments in gender politics, I am of course aware the trans rights movement is making giant gains not least because of celebrities such as Caitlyn ”” nee Bruce ”” Jenner.

If you go to that bible of political correctness, Wikipedia, and look up Jenner or, for that matter, Chelsea ”” nee Bradley ”” Manning you will see their entries have been curated to suggest they were always “she” ”” in Jenner’s case as far back as 1976 when “she” won the men’s decathlon at the Montreal Olympics.

Even so, I was taken aback by Ms Ward’s claim that there is no such thing as the male body, or to borrow from Hamlet ”” that there is nothing either male or female, but thinking makes it so.

You probably think that if someone wants to believe something as obviously crackers as the idea that objectively there is no such thing as a man or a woman, only what we each want to be, well, that is their business. The rest of us will still be free to go on thinking there are men and women, just as we always have.

Go to the website for minus18, a taxpayer outfit that helps same-sex-attracted and transgender youth cope at school and you will see where we are heading.

In a section devoted to the vexed question of the pronouns he, she and they, its website tells the state’s youth that while it’s an easy mistake to make that “genitals and bodies in general don’t reflect anything about a person’s pronouns or gender”.
Apparently this is not even a matter for debate. “Above all else, don’t try to argue this with a person,” it goes on. “Even if you personally disagree, a person who’s asking you to use new pronouns more than likely already has their mind made up, and will probably also feel pretty hurt. Basically, what’s more important? Someone’s anatomy, or their happiness?”

When you put it like that, isn’t arguing the point wrong? If it’s wrong to interfere with someone else’s happiness, shouldn’t that behaviour be forbidden? The process has already started.

Last year the  Australian feminist, Germaine Greer, was attacked by students at a provincial university in Wales who wanted her banned from speaking at their seat of learning because of her longstanding view that chopping off your member and taking hormones doesn’t make you a woman.

The point of the attacks on Greer was to make it clear that this stuff isn’t even up for discussion any more. The next stage will be to make it an offence not merely to discriminate against a transsexual person but an offence not to accept their own view of themselves.

To get back to sport, if you accept Ms Ward’s reasoning that it is merely a perception that so-called male bodies, such as the one Jenner possessed in 1976 ”” indeed, unless I have missed it, still possesses, then he/she ought to have been allowed to compete as a woman at Montreal if that had been Jenner’s choice.

But if there are only so-called male bodies and so-called female bodies, by what objective criteria do we have male and female sports at all? Everyone should be able to compete against each other all the time._


As I post in the political correctness thread --

It’s dangerous and wrong to tell all children they’re ‘gender fluid’
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=18326&page=7&p=896657&viewfull=1#post896657


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## SirRumpole (3 February 2016)

Seems a lot of fuss to make for a very small number of people.


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## Tink (3 February 2016)

I suppose they will be pushing for unisex toilets next.

So how come they have 5hr tennis games for men, and 3hrs for women, if they aren't different.


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## Tink (8 February 2016)

Still in Vic....

*Mother pulls children from Frankston High School over transgender awareness rules*

_A MOTHER has withdrawn her children from Frankston High School after the introduction of a new program to promote transgender awareness.

Cella White says her 14-year-old son was told he could wear a dress to school and that male-born students who identified as female could use the girls’ change rooms and toilets.

The government-funded program by the Safe Schools Coalition is designed to promote inclusiveness for ‘same sex attracted, intersex and gender diverse’ students, but critics say it is indoctrinating children in sexual identity politics under the pretence of a bulling program.

“It was announced in science class that boys could wear school dresses next year,” Ms White said.

“They’re telling my children to call transgender children by their requested pronoun.

“What is the benefit to my son? He’s got a learning disability, he’s struggling with his times tables, he doesn’t need to deal with this.”

The mother of four was particularly concerned about any changes in bathroom policy that could see her daughter sharing a bathroom with a gender diverse student.

“It could be a year 12 student of the opposite-born sex in the bathroom with my year 7 daughter who is blind,” Ms White said.

“This isn’t about safe schools, it’s transgenderism and gay activism bought into the classroom.

“I know other parents who are not happy.”

“Most parents would be very concerned to know that their children are being exposed to such content at school,” he said.

“The program should be removed from schools, and the government should replace it with anti-bullying resources not based on radical gender theory.”

Ms White, who has complained to the education department and Safe Schools Coalition, said she is not religious but is coming forward to make other parents aware of “what their children are being taught.”

“It’s being presented as an anti-bullying program but the education department said it’s a sexual diversity program,” she said.

“The Andrews government has mandated all government schools have to join Safe Schools Coalition by 2018.”

A spokesman for Minister for Education James Merlino told the Herald Sun that they are proud of the work the Safe Schools Coalition is doing:

“Discrimination, harassment and bullying have no place in Victorian schools, and it is up to all of us to establish safe and inclusive learning environments for every one of our students.

“Labor made an election commitment to bring this important program to every Victorian government school and we are happy to honour that promise.”
_

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...1ab5be79592261672051b5c60#load-story-comments
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Here's a novel idea: use schools to teach academic subjects eg English, literacy, science, maths etc.
Let PARENTS deal with their children's PERSONAL matters.
Plenty of children are "different" but their needs are ignored eg gifted chikdren are bored rigid at school.
Yet anything mentioning sex goes to the top of the urgency scale.
It is ridiculous and just another fad being forced onto schools.
The mother is right to withdraw her children. Hopefully, she will find a school that is into teaching academic subjects not PC practices.
Past generations could spell perfectly, had excellent grammar and mental arithmetic etc but they didn't finish 12 years of schooling.
Today, after 12 years, students are coming out barely literate, unable to spell, and with appalling grammar.
It's time schools stopped the claptrap and taught proper subjects._


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## SirRumpole (8 February 2016)

Tink said:


> _Here's a novel idea: use schools to teach academic subjects eg English, literacy, science, maths etc.
> Let PARENTS deal with their children's PERSONAL matters.
> Plenty of children are "different" but their needs are ignored eg gifted chikdren are bored rigid at school.
> Yet anything mentioning sex goes to the top of the urgency scale.
> ...




I'd have to say I agree with that comment.

Schools are for learning academic subjects and this nonsense would seem to pander to a very small minority at the expense of the majority because it would be a diversion from the academic routine.

No wonder more parents are sending their kids to private schools.


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## Tisme (8 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd have to say I agree with that comment.
> 
> Schools are for learning academic subjects and this nonsense would seem to pander to a very small minority at the expense of the majority because it would be a diversion from the academic routine.
> 
> No wonder more parents are sending their kids to private schools.




Daughter reregistered as teacher a few months back, expected a protracted delay in position, one week later swamped with offers for contracts, one week into this year and she has already suspended a year 8 from her class and the school, sent another to spend the class time somewhere else in the school and shocked the socks of her cohorts in doing so; HODS and Principals are delighted that a teacher is *teaching *both academics and social expectations.

My family has a long chain DNA of teaching, dating well back into pioneer Australia. It is well known that to teach you first have to get the students engaged by whatever means; and discipline is the key ....just like it was for all us baby boomers who experienced the fear of retribution from the grown up at the front of the class. 

The good news is that the Newman Govt's audacious scheme to send kids back in time to learn the three R's so our kids they could fit into a rheumatic farm labourer culture that was QLD a century ago has been scrapped by the current govt and the 21st century has once again been rediscovered up here in the boonies, with primary school children now been prepped for the technology generation that we missed the boat on some decades ago.

It's all well and good romanticising about the good old days when we were bragging about gaining a distinction mark, when in reality it was a 25% fail indicator. As a nation, we were going nowhere fast back then with our qualifications and I suspect we haven't reached any desirable destination since, with most innovative talent and invention going offshore where enterprise is valued over quadratic equations that have no place in 99.9% of the human population's adult lifetime.

The public service is a classic example of success based on irrelevant scholastic outcomes (under the oxymoron of personal development) rather than merit. They get pay rises, but continue to do the same menial works a junior school leaver with a poor knowledge of the 3Rs could do merely by adhering to the procedure manual; the money goes in from the public and the efficacy that comes back to them is poor by comparison, so poor that govts employ outside consultants to come up with solutions... proof that relevance is the key; that or cronyism


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> The public service is a classic example of success based on irrelevant scholastic outcomes (under the oxymoron of personal development) rather than merit. They get pay rises, but continue to do the same menial works a junior school leaver with a poor knowledge of the 3Rs could do merely by adhering to the procedure manual; the money goes in from the public and the efficacy that comes back to them is poor by comparison, so poor that govts employ outside consultants to come up with solutions... proof that relevance is the key; that or cronyism




Cronyism is alive and well in the public service, but I've known instances where a new manager comes into the public service, sacks existing staff and appoints contractors who are cronies of his !

Costs go up and very little is done. At least with permanent staff, very little gets done also, but the costs are lower.


----------



## Tink (15 February 2016)

_The controversial Safe Schools Coalition program, which teaches high school students in years 7 and 8 about sexual diversity and inclusion, ... takes a politically correct approach to sex education.  Teachers are told it is “heterosexist’’ to refer to students as “girls and boys”.

I am not convinced that sex education should be in schools at all. This sort of program certainly should not be. 

While it is important to socialise young minds to tolerate diversity, this is a role for parents and broader civil society – state sponsored indoctrination through the state schooling system distracts from its primary function._

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._backs_this_preaching_whats_the_point_of_the/


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2016)

Tink said:


> _The controversial Safe Schools Coalition program, which teaches high school students in years 7 and 8 about sexual diversity and inclusion, ... takes a politically correct approach to sex education.  Teachers are told it is “heterosexist’’ to refer to students as “girls and boys”.
> 
> I am not convinced that sex education should be in schools at all. This sort of program certainly should not be.
> 
> ...




I thought it is the primary function of schools to indoctrinate kids?

How else will they grow up thinking that their country is just awesome; their country never do wrong but always have wrong done to it; How else will they learn to not laugh at their political leaders but listen and obey? How will they know and accept their place in the pecking order... if it weren't for proper education?



So maybe getting to role play and see that it might not be OK to beat up the gay kid because they're students too... maybe not too bad?


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> ..
> 
> My family has a long chain DNA of teaching, dating well back into pioneer Australia. It is well known that to teach you first have to get the students engaged by whatever means; and discipline is the key ....just like it was for all us baby boomers who experienced the fear of retribution from the grown up at the front of the class.
> ..




What were your ancestors teaching way back during the pioneering days?


----------



## Tink (16 February 2016)

Luutzu, you are entitled to your opinion, but bullying should be represented for all children, not just on sexuality.

Transgender and gay activism should not have a place in a school.

Until the school shows that they are coming out with learning the basics, as in reading and writing, then all this other rubbish should not be in schools.

Good on the parents that have come forward and care about what their children are being taught.

No wonder parents are marching out of the public schools, when they are teaching all this garbage.

Good to see some dads still have a voice, and say what they think when it comes to their children

So when are you enrolling this six year old girl.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tart-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

-----------------------------

I must say, Good on Bob Day.

A man of honour, morals and principles


----------



## Tisme (16 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> What were your ancestors teaching way back during the pioneering days?




How to stalk dinosaurs


----------



## SirRumpole (16 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> How to stalk dinosaurs




Ah sorry, men and dinosaurs didn't live at the same time.

Gotcha !


----------



## luutzu (16 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> How to stalk dinosaurs




I bet more than a few eyeballs also rolls then too


----------



## luutzu (16 February 2016)

Tink said:


> Luutzu, you are entitled to your opinion, but bullying should be represented for all children, not just on sexuality.
> 
> Transgender and gay activism should not have a place in a school.
> 
> ...




I take it you don't find insights into education I lifted from other smarter people without referencing that insightful? 

I don't know the details of the programme beside scanning through Bolt's opinion there... but role playing or bringing up issues of gender and sexuality, particularly getting to know about "the queers" and the "fags" and how maybe they're not all that different might lessen prejudice against those people. 

Yea it's activism, maybe... or just part of education. 

But as you say, we're all entitled to our opinions and we'd all wish schools and politicians do as we say but you know, you'd need a lot of cash to have a chat to them about that.

I  mean, went to the kid's school today to see how the class is and what the kid is learning... There's a bunch of Creationism drawings by the kids, saw a poster about Creation with Mars, Jupiter and Earth on it and thought when God told them prophets about Creation He didn't know about any of those planets and galaxies - and the world they're standing on was thought to be flat and only have olive/brown people in it... Then we're told for First Grade all the kids need to do really is learning to count to 100, read the books that's sent home and that's pretty much it. 

So I too wish they'd teach a few things differently too; or not teach too much of the Bible stuff. But then serve me right for sending the kid to a Catholic School... but then can't go public around here and I might have a "guess who's coming to dinner" moment one day 

Back to topic... pretty sure people can't teach the kid to be gay or something like that, so I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## get better (16 February 2016)

I agree with MT, throwing more money at it won't solve the problem. To be honest, I think Australia puts too much blame on schools and teachers and are using funding as an excuse. 

In my opinion, it is the parents and culture we have fostered that should be blamed. Parents should be responsible for the children's learning and encouraging them to succeed as well as respecting education and the purpose it serves during their lifetime. 

Aussie culture is also has a part to play in it, kids are taught to be 'happy' instead of succeeding in their studies. Sure, being happy is important but ultimately I think parents should be putting a bit more emphasis on providing their children with the opportunity and motivation to obtain the skills they need to succeed - starting with a solid foundation in basic literacy and mathematics. There also needs to be a change in attitude where teachers are respected - countries like Japan, Finland and Denmark have a very respectful attitude towards teachers hence they constantly have their education ranked in the top percentile in the world.

The data is a bit dated but increasing expenditure also doesn't necessarily mean better education:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2206rank.html


----------



## nickg198 (17 February 2016)

Management Rights in Australia is frequently referred to as the ultimate home-based business and being involved in the industry can be a very rewarding experience


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2016)

get better said:


> The data is a bit dated but increasing expenditure also doesn't necessarily mean better education:




True, but is there any evidence that reducing expenditure will lead to better education ?


----------



## Ald123 (17 February 2016)

Australian society won't get anywhere until it actually takes children and schooling seriously and treats It professionally. 

Children and family are the most ignored aspect of society and actually it F***S women's rights right up the A$&e

Children should start school at 08h00
Children should get a very healthy cooked lunch at school from the canteen including fruits 
Children should be engaged in sports and extra curricular activities plus sports arranged and organised professionally by the schools until 17h00 when their parents pick them up so that women can work
Women should be supported by society and have a third of their salary paid until each child is about three years old and she should be a stay at home mum until then as this is proven to be psychologically required for children. 
Houses should not be allowed to be traded by investors, a house should be a utility so that house prices appreciate steadily, not becoming a luxury resulting in a nation of renters and usury slaves, why do we enjoy screwing our children's future in the a$&e?
Families should not be mortgaged to the hilt 
Every teacher should be educated to masters level, this is a complicated world.
There should be 3 exams for each subject so that the focus is on repeating the exam voluntarily, with the focus being understanding and long term memorising of the material to improve the mark, not on cramming the material into your head for a single exam. 
And for f$&@s sake let's stop buying Chinese goods because all we are doing is kicking ourselves and our neighbours out of a job and screwing our own children's future in the A$&@e 
Private health insurance should be abolished, doctors and pharmaceuticals pulled into line and higher monthly Medicare premiums introduced so that Medicare for every ailment is introduced universally for everyone. 
University education limited to what is reasonably required by the country and made free for the passing student, along with a hot healthy lunch, the rest should get to work mowing lawns, doing apprenticeships and cleaning toilets so that an engineer doesn't have to do his own DIY around the house because he gets paid less than a plumber who is flirting with all the stay at home mums who can't afford to work and put their child into exorbitant childcare. 


Do this 
Then you will have a healthy society, low drug and alcohol problems amongst youths and a strong economy and a nation that will be admired by everyone

Don't do this 
And you will remain a patently stupid and primitive undeveloped third world and viewed as the idiots get viewed


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## Tink (23 February 2016)

*Safe Schools: Malcolm Turnbull requests investigation *

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...vestigation-into-safe-schools-program/7192374

Good to hear.

----------------------------

http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org.au/resources

Now how many of them have anything to do with bullying in general? Not one.


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2016)

The following directed at year 7 and 8 students from page 20 of the teacher's guide seems to be what the fuss is about,



> *Interactive Exercise: Stepping Out*
> 
> Before watching ‘Jaimee’s Video’ ask your students to separate themselves from their usual friendship groups, then divide the class in to two groups with a physical space between each half. Have students be seated in their new areas.
> 
> ...




The questions are also worth a read.

http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org...ign/assets/all-of-us/documents/unit-guide.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> The following directed at year 7 and 8 students from page 20 of the teacher's guide seems to be what the fuss is about,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do these kids ever get lessons on <errghhh> Maths ?


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Do these kids ever get lessons on <errghhh> Maths ?



If not, there's always the web.

https://www.youtube.com/user/mathbff


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> If not, there's always the web.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/mathbff




I wish I paid more attention to maths, but I didn't have a teacher like that.


----------



## Tink (28 February 2016)

Good to see other MPs, left and right, come forward concerned about this safe school propaganda disguised as anti-bullying initiative.

*Parents are the best judge of their kids’ sex education needs --*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/a4735e9b23790a3769ac99d97d656253

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...girls-can-be-boys-and-boys-can-be-girls-.html

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=17848&page=0


---------------------------------------------

_Parents should read the booklet All of Us and visit the Minus18 website, and make an independent judgement about the content of the Safe Schools Program

The taxpayer should not be funding LGBT activism in the classroom.

Of course, like every other Australian, homosexual activists are free to pursue their cause among the adult community in whatever manner they like, within the bounds of the law. 

But they should have the decency to leave our children and our education system out of it.
_
-----------------------------

 Is political correctness going too far?
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18326&page=7

The West has lost its freedom of speech
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29402&page=30&p=887637#post887637

------------------------------

_Brendan O'Neill ---

So this happened at York University last night.
Audience: What are your views on gender non-binary people?
Me: Oh please don't ask me that. I'd rather not say. It's not worth the hassle.
Audience: Come on!
Me: Nah. My views on this issue are not popular.
Audience: Don't censor yourself.
Me: Okay. Okay. I believe there are men and women and that's it.
Audience: TRANSPHOBE._


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

No wonder mine walked straight back into classroom after years away .... they needed her qualifications to be able to teach new curriculum subjects that the previous (LNP) govt decided weren't 19th century 3Rs enough. What a joke teaching stuff to high school students only now after being mainstream in industry for nearly 30 years.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> No wonder mine walked straight back into classroom after years away .... they needed her qualifications to be able to teach new curriculum subjects that the previous (LNP) govt decided weren't 19th century 3Rs enough. What a joke teaching stuff to high school students only now after being mainstream in industry for nearly 30 years.




Your daughter is 50 years old? So you must be 65 or something... dam you're old.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2016)

It's been a long time since I went to school but even then unis had to give remedial maths classes because the schools just weren't teaching it well enough.


----------



## Tink (9 March 2016)

All schools need to be safe learning places for every child, without exception, but the Safe Schools Coalition's radical sex education program exposes Victorian children to very dangerous ideas, practices, and materials.
And the worrying thing is, parents do not have a say in the matter, in fact, they are completely excluded because the Victorian Labor Government has made this program compulsory in all Victorian schools.

*Parents’ values and rights ignored*

_The balance is shifting against mainstream values in Victorian state schools under the Andrews Labor government.

Nothing is more critical for parents than sharing their values with their children; instructing them in right and wrong, and acting as role models.

Among the most sensitive of these values for children concerns sex and sexuality.

Yet some of our schools include in their curriculum the Safe Schools Coalition program, a program that usurps the parental role.

It is a program that seeks to indoctrinate children as young as 11 in an understanding of sex and sexuality.

It is a program that has attracted legitimate criticism across mainstream Australia.

In the guise of an anti-bullying course, the so-called Safe Schools teaching materials present children with confronting and manipulative information. That information is often at odds with the values those children are taught at home.

For example, the materials link to a website that says that “genitals and bodies in general don’t reflect anything about a person’s … gender”.

One video shown as part of the program bizarrely includes the following phrase: “They may take our penises, they may take our vaginas, but they will never take our freedom!”

Indeed, conventional arrangements in schools, such as recording each student as a boy or a girl, or having a boys’ toilet and a girls’ toilet, are labelled as “restrictive policies” by the Safe Schools Coalition.

Alarmingly, a Safe Schools brochure threatens schools that to “maintain restrictive policies around uniform, personal records and access to bathroom facilities could be breaking the law”.

The teaching materials are also developed in conjunction with an organisation called Minus18.

This group’s website offers advice to children on such matters as chest binding and penis tucking.

It also advocates the use of “puberty blockers”, drugs that require medical prescription and, for obvious reasons, are only effective for young children.

Under the Andrews Labor government, the Safe Schools program will be compulsorily rolled out to all Victorian state schools by 2018.

Parental consent will not be sought by the state government before this curriculum is taught in their children’s school.

In fact, parents will not be advised of any detail of the contents of the Safe Schools program despite its fiercest proponent, Premier Andrews, telling parliament “it does push the boundaries sometimes”.

The Coalition, both federal and state, is in favour of any government-funded program in schools that combats the scourge of bullying. Children need to be taught that bullying is wrong, for any reason.

However, we fear that the Safe Schools Coalition goes far beyond an anti-bullying document and has unfortunately morphed into radical gender theory curriculum and sexual identity politics.

These are issues that one might expect to be exposed to on a university campus ”” not taught to 11-year-olds.

This is, perhaps, not surprising given that one of the Safe Schools Coalition co-founders, Roz Ward, has conceded the program is part of a broader strategy to radically change our society.

In fact, Ms Ward told the Melbourne 2015 Marxism Conference that capitalists have imposed “cultural and moral norms around sex, marriage and the natural family that inhibit sexual freedom”, and that the Safe Schools program was a way of tackling these “norms”.

It is frightening that somebody with these warped views and belief in lurid conspiracy theories is provided with taxpayer-funded support to indoctrinate the nation’s children.

Accordingly, we support the Turnbull government’s review of the Safe Schools program and curriculum ”” if for no other reason ”” because the program is way out of step with the mainstream values of Victorians.

As Cella White, a concerned mother of four, told the Herald Sun in February: “It was announced in science class that boys could wear school dresses next year.”

She later went on to say in a radio interview, “I think it’s far too graphic” a teaching program for her young teenage son.

Ultimately, we believe that the state should not usurp the role of parents and make value judgements about what children are to be compulsorily taught.

Particularly on these highly sensitive subjects, without their parents’ consent and knowledge.

Sadly, in parliament last week, Bill Shorten and Daniel Andrews derided anyone as a homophobe or bigot for simply questioning the age-appropriateness and other aspects of the Safe Schools program.

In this respect we concur with the words of former prime minister John Howard, who said: “To say that anybody who is alarmed about this ‘Safe Schools’ booklet is a homophobe …(is) so out of touch.”

We are determined to be the voice for mainstream values and to defend the rights of ordinary parents to guide the values of their children on these highly sensitive matters._

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...d/news-story/eb238d305c96c0098405ed0eaa9a49d4
*
Confusion reigns in Andrews government over Safe Schools program*

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/a...-mandatory-20160307-gncs0w.html#ixzz42Letd1rQ 

_Gay Marriage
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=3680&page=116&p=900075&viewfull=1#post900075_


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 March 2016)

Tink said:


> All schools need to be safe learning places for every child, without exception, but the Safe Schools Coalition's radical sex education program exposes Victorian children to very dangerous ideas, practices, and materials.
> And the worrying thing is, parents do not have a say in the matter, in fact, they are completely excluded because the Victorian Labor Government has made this program compulsory in all Victorian schools.




The program needs a lot more thought, imo.  More balance is required.  These are subjects which are still not understood fully.  Getting untrained people to teach them is problematic.

I like to use the example of Tourette's syndrome.  A person suffering this affliction should be free to do his own thing and not be subject to taunting or harrassment.  But it would be wrong to say that it's just a natural variation and that "some people are just born this way - celebrate it!".  No, because then we open up the floodgate.  It can be used as an excuse.  

It comes back to the point I've been making about whether homosexuality and cross-dressing are manifestations of a troubled childhood or even a troubled pregnancy (epigenetics).  If they are, and yet we say "it's all good", then people might not be inclined to seek to rectify those things which are suboptimal.  Growth in all aspects takes enormous courage.  If we always say "everyone and everything is just fine", we don't tend to grow. 

*The topic of acceptance is extremely nuanced.*  Non-acceptance can be ugly (I've seen it in myself).  BUT, acceptance of everyone and everything denies that there might be an optimal path to growth.  By 'growth', I mean growth towards a pinnacle of personal and world-wide love and peace (which is the original message of all spiritual masters before the churches grabbed hold of it and turned into something else).

[edit]... The so-called experts like to say that such variations are not a conscious choice.  Well... OBVIOUSLY that's true.  But then some of them go onto say that, 'well if it's not a conscious choice then you must be born with it', which is utterly ignorant.  The subconscious will house a whole host of parental influences, both verbal and non-verbal.  And the subconscious does choose and direct us, moment-to-moment.  People can be influenced to do and think a whole range of things.  This is why we have marketing and advertising industries - they work.  *Minds can be manipulated.*


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2016)

Tink said:


> All schools need to be safe learning places for every child, without exception, but the Safe Schools Coalition's radical sex education program exposes Victorian children to very dangerous ideas, practices, and materials.
> And the worrying thing is, parents do not have a say in the matter, in fact, they are completely excluded because the Victorian Labor Government has made this program compulsory in all Victorian schools.
> 
> *Parents’ values and rights ignored*
> ...



_

I'd imagine that if you ask parents when their children should be exposed to sex and physical education, they'd say until uni; When should the children have sex, it'd be after marriage. Forget about gay sex or gayness.

I mean, sex and self respect is all important and people shouldn't sleep around... but values and parents teaching their kids about morality and mainstream value and homosexuality or being gay or having gay friends or accepting that some people are gay and it's alright... those aren't the same moral values, right?

Strange that we don't like the nanny and the police state telling us what to do... then we tell others what is right and moral based on some Middle Eastern book and its moral code to not treat everyone equally._


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> Your daughter is 50 years old? So you must be 65 or something... dam you're old.




My poor English skills. I was referring to the subject matter only now catching up with 30 year old industry processes.

And yes I'm not unaccustomed to the ageist comments.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> My poor English skills. I was referring to the subject matter only now catching up with 30 year old industry processes.
> 
> And yes I'm not unaccustomed to the ageist comments.




Was a compliment. Honest 

With age come wisdom and stuff.


----------



## nioka (11 March 2016)

Ald123 said:


> Australian society won't get anywhere until it actually takes children and schooling seriously and treats It professionally.
> 
> Children and family are the most ignored aspect of society and actually it F***S women's rights right up the A$&e
> 
> ...




Are you for real.


----------



## Tink (12 March 2016)

More on this looney leftist ideology
*
Safe Schools: Turnbull in crossfire over sex agenda*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...a/news-story/8196b1e8ad262992922598316cd9c5a0
_
 "Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews has said the intention is to make the program compulsory in all Victorian high schools. The state sent confused messages this week, but the policy remains. 

*Rarely has the ugly face of state power been so apparent.*"_


----------



## Muschu (12 March 2016)

nioka said:


> Are you for real.




He can't be.  Must be taking a lend.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It's been a long time since I went to school but even then unis had to give remedial maths classes because the schools just weren't teaching it well enough.




Things haven't changed much apparently:

Maths must be mandatory prerequisite for certain university degrees, experts say



> Only 14 per cent of Australia's science university degrees require maths as a condition of entry, and experts say the country's future looks dire if students continue to turn their back on studying maths in high school.
> Key points:
> 
> Government to recommend mid-level maths be mandatory pre-requisite for a range of university degrees
> ...


----------



## Muschu (17 March 2016)

The place of tutors / tuition in education is interesting and probably overdone (particularly with very young kids) in some very competitive Asian countries.

I was involved in education for most of my career.  I find the move to online  and brief tutoring sessions at the point / time of need to be an excellent support to secondary and early tertiary students.  Not a replacement for the classroom but a good adjunct at homework / assignment time when a student gets "stuck" - a very common situation.

To my knowledge the biggest provider in Australia is Yourtutor which is presently offering a free trial.

Based in Sydney but provides nationally.

(Nope, I don't work for them)


----------



## Tink (18 March 2016)

This safe school propaganda continues...
I cannot understand how people are quite happy to keep it going with everything that has surfaced about it.

Keep an anti bullying program for ALL children if need be, but this is going too far, in my view.

You’re Teaching Our Children What? 

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2016)

Changes to Safe Schools announced,



> An independent review of the Safe Schools program found that a number of the resources had lessons and content not necessarily appropriate for all children, Education Minister Simon Birmingham said in Canberra on Friday.
> 
> "We will be making it clear that the program resources are fit for delivery in secondary school environments only."
> 
> ...




The above is as reported from a media outlet.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/03/18/03/33/pm-receives-petition-against-safe-schools


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2016)

Tink said:


> This safe school propaganda continues...
> I cannot understand how people are quite happy to keep it going with everything that has surfaced about it.
> 
> Keep an anti bullying program for ALL children if need be, but this is going too far, in my view.
> ...




Grooming kids for pedophiles and homosexuality. Lets hope there is peer pressure stronger than the brain washing Tink.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2016)

There are many reasons that kids get bullied at school, physical appearance, nationality, race, social disadvantage, disability etc, so I don't see why one particular reason should be singled out as being more important.


There definately should be anti bullying programs in schools, but the message should be don't bully anyone for any reason, there is no reason to complicate the matter any further.


----------



## nioka (18 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There are many reasons that kids get bullied at school, physical appearance, nationality, race, social disadvantage, disability etc, so I don't see why one particular reason should be singled out as being more important.
> 
> 
> There defineatly should be anti bullying programs in schools, but the message should be don't bully anyone for any reason, there is no reason to complicate the matter any further.




In my day the bullies were usually in a higher class asserting their "Seniority" on a lower class. The ones you detailed were usually not bullied but ignored or rejected. Maybe todays rules say that to ignore or reject someone is being a bully.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2016)

nioka said:


> In my day the bullies were usually in a higher class asserting their "Seniority" on a lower class. The ones you detailed were usually not bullied but ignored or rejected. Maybe todays rules say that to ignore or reject someone is being a bully.




Maybe things have changed more than you think and kids have got meaner. I don't know, but there seems to be more child suicides than there was "in my day", or maybe they are more publicised, and with the advent of social media, it's probably easier to spread rumours about people.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (18 March 2016)

The real solution to bullying will never be addressed.  It's usually the *fault of the parents* that a kid will have low self-worth, and it's kids with low self-worth who are targeted by bullies.  The bullies themselves actually have the same issue as their victims, it's just that they have developed ways to temporarily combat it through displacement.   

People just keep on having children and keep on grandly stuffing up the minds of a new generation.  Whaddya gonna do?  

Stopping bullying is necessary, but it doesn't come close to fixing the real issue.  Maybe educating secondary students (>yr 10) would be the right approach.  I think teenagers need to understand that the more they feel a *need *to have a child, the more likely they will be unfit to properly raise one.  Maybe a questionnaire could be used to determine one's fitness to raise a child.  Ideally you'd give such a test to adults as well, but adults wouldn't accept that.  Oh no!  Plenty of women in their 20's and 30's are having kids who simply won't be capable of providing basic needs for love and attention....yet they go ahead anyway.


----------



## Muschu (18 March 2016)

If you Google Professor Donna Cross and bullying [ or even "New approach to stop bullying in schools"] you will discover some informed and research based evidence about this topic.

Might interest some of you.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (18 March 2016)

Muschu said:


> If you Google Professor Donna Cross and bullying [ or even "New approach to stop bullying in schools"] you will discover some informed and research based evidence about this topic.
> 
> Might interest some of you.




From that source:  "Our research has found that students who were covertly bullied, or who covertly bullied others, *reported higher levels of loneliness* at school, felt less safe at school and were more likely to experience difficulties such as *emotional symptoms*, conduct problems, *inattention and peer relationship problems*".

Yep, and what causes that loneliness, emotionality, inattention and difficulties in relating?  The child's poor upbringing!  Such symptoms don't just appear randomly or without reason.

Still, Cross' approach looks like a good remedial approach to poor parenting.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> From that source:  "Our research has found that students who were covertly bullied, or who covertly bullied others, *reported higher levels of loneliness* at school, felt less safe at school and were more likely to experience difficulties such as *emotional symptoms*, conduct problems, *inattention and peer relationship problems*".
> 
> Yep, and what causes that loneliness, emotionality, inattention and difficulties in relating?  The child's poor upbringing!  Such symptoms don't just appear randomly or without reason.
> 
> Still, Cross' approach looks like a good remedial approach to poor parenting.




Kids get bullied for having disabilities, I wouldn't put that down to poor parenting, so you can't really make generalisations in this area.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (18 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Kids get bullied for having disabilities, I wouldn't put that down to poor parenting, so you can't really make generalisations in this area.




No one will be bullied if they have a healthy sense of self-worth.  It just doesn't happen.  Many disabled people have low self worth based on their tendency to equate their own worth with their ability (as we do - it's society's directive).  Such people might get bullied.  But Steven Payne is an example of someone who probably wouldn't get targeted because he doesn't buy into that equation.  He's just very happy with how he is.


----------



## Ijustnewit (29 March 2016)

What a great public education system we have here in Tasmanian . After a 4 day public holiday fest the lazy public schools teachers down here decided it was all too much and are having a pupil free day. But drive past any public school and not one teacher is in sight , so they are basically having an extra days holiday at the public's and children's  expense. To top that all off it is almost less than a week before they officially have another two week holiday period which yes includes more pupil free days to extend it even further. What a bunch of bludgers and no wonder we are the turning out to be the dumbest state in the country.
Tomorrow if they decide to return to work they will send the children off to swimming lessons for half the day , so there goes more vital education opportunities.


----------



## Muschu (29 March 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> What a great public education system we have here in Tasmanian . After a 4 day public holiday fest the lazy public schools teachers down here decided it was all too much and are having a pupil free day. But drive past any public school and not one teacher is in sight , so they are basically having an extra days holiday at the public's and children's  expense. To top that all off it is almost less than a week before they officially have another two week holiday period which yes includes more pupil free days to extend it even further. What a bunch of bludgers and no wonder we are the turning out to be the dumbest state in the country.
> Tomorrow if they decide to return to work they will send the children off to swimming lessons for half the day , so there goes more vital education opportunities.




I'm in WA. 

Doesn't school for staff and children in Tasmania officially commence tomorrow?  

Do all Tasmanian children start swimming lessons tomorrow?  Do they all have half the day at the pool or go in shifts? 

Do their parents want them to have swimming lessons?  [Usually a School Board or Council participates in such a decision]

Are all teachers bludgers?

Most teachers I know work very long hours and participate in a great deal of professional development in their own time as well as on the nominated days when they can work together, as a staff, on whole school data analysis / target setting / planning / pedagogies.

But I guess you know a lot of teachers too.... And no doubt you work a lot harder than they do.... 

Oh by the way:  I was a Principal and now work as a consultant in public education. I exchanged work emails with Principals right through Easter... And do so most weekends.. I must remember to tell them that they are bludgers.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (31 March 2016)

Rudd/Gillard spent *2.4* *BILLION *$ getting a laptop/tablet for every school kid.

Research suggests they are nothing more than a distraction in the classroom.  So in other words R/G spent that enormous sum of money without any formal research to back it up.

Those two have got to go down as the worst political leaders in Aus history.  Cash handouts, school building program cost++ blow outs, roof insultion **** up.  Unreal.


----------



## Muschu (31 March 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Rudd/Gillard spent *2.4* *BILLION *$ getting a laptop/tablet for every school kid.
> 
> Research suggests they are nothing more than a distraction in the classroom.  So in other words R/G spent that enormous sum of money without any formal research to back it up.
> 
> Those two have got to go down as the worst political leaders in Aus history.  Cash handouts, school building program cost++ blow outs, roof insultion **** up.  Unreal.




This is not an unfair comment about technology in schools but I'd suggest opinions are quite divided.  I'd be interested to know what research you are referring to... 

My own views on this are "on the fence"...  What is not good is the discrepancy between schools in terms of financial "opportunities". Some now have a BYOD policy whereas in lower income areas this is simply unachievable - 

There is a lack of equity, even in the Government system.  I find this troubling.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (31 March 2016)

Muschu said:


> This is not an unfair comment about technology in schools but I'd suggest opinions are quite divided.  I'd be interested to know what research you are referring to...
> 
> My own views on this are "on the fence"...  What is not good is the discrepancy between schools in terms of financial "opportunities". Some now have a BYOD policy whereas in lower income areas this is simply unachievable -
> 
> There is a lack of equity, even in the Government system.  I find this troubling.




Link in smh article  http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...ps--and-improve-learning-20151022-gkfwjw.html

So many politicians have this childish, populist, follow-the-crowd way of behaving.  They totally lack wisdom, insight, common sense and a long term view.  It drives me insane.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Link in smh article  http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...ps--and-improve-learning-20151022-gkfwjw.html
> 
> So many politicians have this childish, populist, follow-the-crowd way of behaving.  They totally lack wisdom, insight, common sense and a long term view.  It drives me insane.




The value of being able to program computers, as opposed to using someone elses program is very high. That where the IT geniuses will come from, those who can program properly. 

To do this and produce worthwhile results you need to know the principles of the subject you are programming for, whether it be economics, physics, maths or anything else. Then you need to be able to think logically and string these principles together in the correct order. Then you need to validate your data and test your output for reasonableness.

All these requirements contribute to a better understanding of the subject so if they are used properly computers are a valuable tool for any subject I can think of except PE. Maybe they just are not being used correctly in schools.


----------



## Muschu (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The value of being able to program computers, as opposed to using someone elses program is very high. That where the IT geniuses will come from, those who can program properly.
> 
> To do this and produce worthwhile results you need to know the principles of the subject you are programming for, whether it be economics, physics, maths or anything else. Then you need to be able to think logically and string these principles together in the correct order. Then you need to validate your data and test your output for reasonableness.
> 
> All these requirements contribute to a better understanding of the subject so if they are used properly computers are a valuable tool for any subject I can think of except PE. Maybe they just are not being used correctly in schools.




Again, not unfair.... Every contemporary Principal and teacher I know refers to technology as a tool and it's integration across learning areas.  Not as a learning area in its own right.

I think, again, it is a matter of "extent".  We all need to learn how to learn and technology is unavoidable in that regard.  But we also need to learn how to think for ourselves - inclusive of literacy and numeracy.

I anticipate this will be an ongoing debate as we struggle to work out how best to manage a world that continues to change - with technology being a major change issue.... Goodness knows where technology will be 10, 20, 50 or 100 years from know.  Interesting to contemplate but by then an issue for generations beyond mine.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The value of being able to program computers, as opposed to using someone elses program is very high. That where the IT geniuses will come from, those who can program properly.
> 
> To do this and produce worthwhile results you need to know the principles of the subject you are programming for, whether it be economics, physics, maths or anything else. Then you need to be able to think logically and string these principles together in the correct order. Then you need to validate your data and test your output for reasonableness.
> 
> All these requirements contribute to a better understanding of the subject so if they are used properly computers are a valuable tool for any subject I can think of except PE. Maybe they just are not being used correctly in schools.




If everything is done on computer, there's no need for a teacher.  It's the overuse by lazy teachers that's the real problem.  Computer use leads to 'zoning out' and isolation, whereas education should involve active engagement with someone who knows the subject.

Genuis kid programmers are going to teach themselves and be _way _ahead of anything you'd learn at school.  They will do their own thing regardless.

In my day, programming was taught on the blackboard so that we could see the logic unfold.    I mean why even go to school if all you're going to do is stare at a screen and follow on-screen instructions?  Plenty of time to use the PC at home.


----------



## Muschu (1 April 2016)

This is one end of the spectrum 

http://www.educatoronline.com.au/news/top-school-warns-laptops-a-distraction-to-learning-213838.aspx

I could find the other but I am rapidly losing interest with the   fixed opinions and generalisations.

And if teaching is for the lazy, why the retention issue?

http://www.educatoronline.com.au/news/there-is-hope-for-teacher-retention-yet-213708.aspx


----------



## Tink (20 April 2016)

*State-sponsored sexualisation of children is child abuse.*

_The state-sponsored premature sexualisation of children continues, under cover of another worthy cause; this time it’s domestic violence prevention.

Again, the aim for sexual “diversity” activists is to expose children as young as 11 to explicit lessons covering gender fluidity, transgenderism and anal sex.

Victoria was the first state to implement a version of the “Safe Schools” LGBTI-etc propaganda under the guise of an anti-bullying program, and quick to reject the federal government’s sensible refinement of the material.

Now, the Andrews government has come up with an equally pernicious project. 

The $22 million Building Respectful Relationships program in Victorian government schools, purports to prevent domestic violence.
_
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/1ccc661aecbb2099a4ff06739a3c0532

_http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/_

----------------------------------------

The cartoon I posted was from a lecture at Sydney University

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=1202&page=56&p=902950&viewfull=1#post902950


----------



## Tink (1 May 2016)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=4171&page=196&p=904680&viewfull=1#post904680

Luutzu,

Well you were the one that complained about taxpayers dollars not being spent on what the parents/public want, well the parents are moving out of the public system.
What I am seeing is parents scrambling to get out, and trying to put their children in private.

What is happening in Victoria is a mess with this Labor/Greens Govt.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/2d4f796c2c53c26c22320df709719f7a

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/

You said your wife sent your children private -- correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

Tink said:


> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=4171&page=196&p=904680&viewfull=1#post904680
> 
> Luutzu,
> 
> ...




Where I live and the neighbours I have, who in their right mind would send their kids to public schools? 

We send the kid to a Catholic school because it's pretty much next door, have small class room size. Though I have to put up with the kids having to attend Mass, learn about God and Jesus loving all people and things His father first created, then destroyed then forget about.

I guess kids have to have their fairy tales. I'm actually thinking of how best to put it to the kid what I think of all these stuff... but you know, can't offend teachers who's grading the kid with facts like that.

Sorry if I offended you. I went to public schools and they don't teach us manners - or proper English.


----------



## Muschu (1 May 2016)

I went to a private school but my own kids went to government schools - where I worked as a teacher, psychologist and Principal for decades.

 I still do consultancy work for government schools.

Some years back WA moved towards developing "Independent Public Schools [IPS]" and we now have some hundreds of these.  They do enjoy greater flexibility and autonomy particularly with regard to staff selection and how their budget is spent.  But IPSs are still very accountable when it comes to performance and expenditure.

Whether it be the current difficult economic times or the IPS initiative there is now a drift here back to public schools.

Just my 2 cents worth.  Basically - I think it is good that parents have a choice between public and private.


----------



## Tink (24 May 2016)

What is happening in Victoria is a disgrace, imv..

The fact that the Victorian Andrews' government is pushing the transgender agenda, against the recommendations of the Commonwealth about the Safe Schools Coalition is a concern.

The left have gone so far left, they have fallen off the cliff.

They need to look at their own bullying.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Roz Ward, the hardline Marxist behind the contentious Safe Schools program, has been *appointed to a high-level committee advising the Victorian govern*ment on education issues... 

Ms Ward, already a director of the Safe Schools Coalition Victoria, has joined the education reference group set up to provide advice on the government’s LGBTI education priorit*ies and identify new ways to improve equality for gay and transgender youth in schools…

Ms Ward, an academic with a degree in gender studies, has *become the controversial face of the Safe Schools movement, largely due to her extreme Left political views; including publicly linking the program to a broader Marxist push to liberate society from “gender constructs”._

----------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the transgender bathrooms - it has already started here.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=20836&page=14&p=903978&viewfull=1#post903978

The women have pulled off the sign from the door and put 'women only'  with a dress on -- on the front door.

The left are hypocrites, when they talk about violence against women and children, yet set this up for the women and children?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

Lefty propaganda or a real problem in schools ?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-17/beautiful-failures-education-making-kids-sick/7589084


----------



## Tink (3 August 2016)

*'I think scholarships should be given on merit*': Sonia Kruger slams university grants for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students as 'reverse discrimination' 

_Sonia Kruger calls scholarship for LGBTI students 'reverse discrimination
ABCN, is targeting high school students who identify as gay or trans 
Kruger said she didn't understand how the scholarship related to sexuality _

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsgender-students-reverse-discrimination.html

------------------------------------------------------

*Scholarships and the age of consent.*

Since when are teachers allowed to ask YOUR children their sexuality?


----------



## Tisme (3 August 2016)

Tink said:


> *'I think scholarships should be given on merit*': Sonia Kruger slams university grants for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students as 'reverse discrimination'
> 
> _Sonia Kruger calls scholarship for LGBTI students 'reverse discrimination
> ABCN, is targeting high school students who identify as gay or trans
> ...




Some cultures just have to be dragged along with an incentive chain to catchup with the developed peoples, but I'm not sure that scholarships will be any sought of cure for the LGBTI breed though.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2016)

Tink said:


> *'I think scholarships should be given on merit*': Sonia Kruger slams university grants for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students as 'reverse discrimination'
> 
> _Sonia Kruger calls scholarship for LGBTI students 'reverse discrimination
> ABCN, is targeting high school students who identify as gay or trans
> ...





Reverse discrimination: bad.

Normal discrimination: Foundation of our civilisation [?]


I thought the scholarship is also based on merits: be gay _and _ study hard _and [possibly] _ came from financially disadvantaged family.

It's not like it's given to anyone who's gay/transgender right?


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> Reverse discrimination: bad.
> 
> Normal discrimination: Foundation of our civilisation [?]
> 
> ...




So why ask if a person is LGBTI XXX in the first place if it's based on merit.

It's an invasion of privacy for a start and liable to rorting. I mean do you actually have to prove it by going to bed with someone of your own sex ? It's pretty absurd when you think about it.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So why ask if a person is LGBTI XXX in the first place if it's based on merit.
> 
> It's an invasion of privacy for a start and liable to rorting. I mean do you actually have to prove it by going to bed with someone of your own sex ? It's pretty absurd when you think about it.




It's both merit and LGBT. 

Scholarships and such are never just about rewarding merit alone; they're always designed to give the disadvantaged a bit more of an equal start. That's why those of low income families, or ethnic backgrounds... believe it or not, the dominant race/gender/sexuality kids tend to be more advantaged than those who aren't born that way.

At end of the day, it's the people who set up the scholarships' choice in how they want their money spent. And if it help those they feel are somewhat disadvantaged but are studying hard... aren't there other more grievous injustices we should be fighting for?

I mean, should we tell rich parents to not spend their cash on their kids education because it disadvantage and discriminate against those kids whose parents are working hard just to put food on the table?


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> It's both merit and LGBT.
> 
> Scholarships and such are never just about rewarding merit alone; they're always designed to give the disadvantaged a bit more of an equal start. That's why those of low income families, or ethnic backgrounds... believe it or not, the dominant race/gender/sexuality kids tend to be more advantaged than those who aren't born that way.
> 
> ...




That doesn't really make sense. Merit should be the only consideration. I want people building bridges who are the best able to do it, not because they happen to be LGBTI. Somewhat of a cliche, but "political correctness gone mad" is a good description.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That doesn't really make sense. Merit should be the only consideration. I want people building bridges who are the best able to do it, not because they happen to be LGBTI. Somewhat of a cliche, but "political correctness gone mad" is a good description.




Trust me, I always make good sense 

There are already scholarships based purely on merits; and there are some position available based solely on merits. 

But since our society are not all equal, since there are certain segment within it that are more disadvantaged than others... to look for and award the achievements and hard work for those within such sub-group makes a lot of sense. 

Such is not reverse-discrimination; it is selective... but certain "discrimination" are necessary to just balance the playing field a bit for those they select. 

Let say two students are equally capable and dedicated. One has little financial support while the other has a couple of Trusts waiting for their 18th birthday.

If a scholarship is given to the rich kid because, say, they answer a question or two better... is that really the more equitable thing to do?

What if the poorer kid wouldn't be able to attend uni at all without that scholarship?


Anyway, homosexuals and other deviants shouldn't be treated any differently... except for when they want to get married and have children.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> Trust me, I always make good sense
> 
> There are already scholarships based purely on merits; and there are some position available based solely on merits.
> 
> ...




So are they going to take the applicants word for it, or do they have to copulate with their own gender ?


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So are they going to take the applicants word for it, or do they have to copulate with their own gender ?




That or just see how they dress or what music or pop icon they like, ha ha


----------



## Tink (9 September 2016)

*Dead to History*



> A movement to censor our history is forming at Australian universities. Students and academics are campaigning for buildings and lecture halls to be renamed because of their association with ‘offensive’ historical figures. They no longer feel comfortable confronting, or even acknowledging, the past”” instead, they want to expunge it altogether. Their first target is the renaming of the Richard Berry building at the University of Melbourne.
> 
> Richard Berry revolutionised the teaching of anatomy in Melbourne. He wrote the standard anatomy textbook used by students for some twenty-five years. As dean of medicine he advocated for the placement of a hospital near campus that could work closely with the university, a dream that became a reality after his departure. Berry’s contributions to teaching, as well as an administrator, were so outstanding that when a new anatomy building opened, which he designed, it was only natural to name the building after him.




https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/09/dead-history/


----------



## Tink (23 September 2016)

More on the unsafe school program.

Sydney University Law professor Patrick Parkinson has reviewed the evidence which underpins these programs and found that the statistics cited are “just not true”.  

He’s called for a suspension of the Safe Schools material.

In his paper “The controversy over the Safe Schools program ”” finding the sensible centre”, released this week, Professor Parkinson writes: “The materials present statistics on same-sex attraction and transgender prevalence that have no valid scientific basis.”



> The Safe Schools program has attracted great controversy. On one end of the spectrum it is defended as an anti-bullying program. On the other end of the spectrum it is regarded as social engineering. It is important to have programs in schools that offer support for same-sex attracted youth, or those experiencing confusion about their gender identity, particularly those who do not have support at home. However, this particular program has some serious flaws.
> This paper seeks to draw attention to various problems in the Safe Schools materials which ought to be rectified if a program like this is to continue to be offered in schools. First, the materials present statistics on same-sex attraction and transgender prevalence that have no valid scientific basis. Secondly, they present sexual orientation as fixed when for school-aged adolescents it is very volatile, and many same-sex attractions are transitory.
> Thirdly, they present gender as fluid when for about 99.5% of the population, there is complete congruence between sexual characteristics and gender identity. Fourthly, they promote gender transitioning without the need for any medical and psychological guidance and even without parental knowledge or consent. Finally, they offer potentially misleading legal advice to teachers. While a program of this kind may offer benefits for some young people, there is reason to be concerned that it may cause harm to other young people who experience same-sex attraction or gender confusion. There is certainly a place for an anti-bullying program that addresses the issues with which the Safe Schools program is concerned, but this program needs to be rescued from its progenitors.
> 
> ...




http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2839084

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bl...i/news-story/f80587e97a6342be724435a6af87bd85


----------



## Tisme (23 September 2016)

Tink said:


> More on the unsafe school program.
> 
> Sydney University Law professor Patrick Parkinson has reviewed the evidence which underpins these programs and found that the statistics cited are “just not true”.
> 
> ...




Psycho-sexual ... Never...homosexuality is set at conception, just ask anyone who rides the rainbow bandwagon.


----------



## sptrawler (28 September 2016)

As I have said on numerous occasions, nursing training should be taken back into hospitals, where those suitable get the support and exposure.
As opposed to the new system, where everyone who passes the exams gets the qualification, nursing is most about suitability to the calling. IMO

http://www.theage.com.au/business/w...f-leaving-the-profession-20160928-grq75z.html

We really are a bunch of lost souls, IMO.

Another case of Australia striving for mediocrity.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (28 September 2016)

sptrawler said:


> As I have said on numerous occasions, nursing training should be taken back into hospitals, where those suitable get the support and exposure.
> As opposed to the new system, where everyone who passes the exams gets the qualification, nursing is most about suitability to the calling. IMO
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/business/w...f-leaving-the-profession-20160928-grq75z.html
> ...




I agree, but they'd never do it and you know why.  The money that formal university education generates is enormous.  If 1/3 leave after graduating, demand skyrockets -->  $$$$$$$ for universities.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

Cranborn Middle School:


http://mtonews.com/disgusting-math-teacher-tells/



> Questions included:
> Ramon has an AK-47 with a 30-round clip. He usually misses 6 out of every 10 shots and he uses 13 rounds per drive-by shooting. How many drive-by shootings can Ramon attempt before he has to steal enough ammunition and reload?
> 
> Leroy has 2 ounces of cocaine. If etc


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2016)

This must be all Labor's fault, even after 3 years 

Australia crashing down international leaderboard for education, falling behind Kazakhstan


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-30/australia-declines-in-global-education-report/8077474


----------



## McLovin (30 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> This must be all Labor's fault, even after 3 years
> 
> Australia crashing down international leaderboard for education, falling behind Kazakhstan
> 
> ...




It doesn't matter. You don't need to be a genius to negatively gear your property investment. The government's money is better off subsidising that.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> This must be all Labor's fault, even after 3 years
> 
> Australia crashing down international leaderboard for education, falling behind Kazakhstan
> 
> ...




Looks like it's ripe for a whole lot of that privatised entrepreneurial goodness that's working wonders in the power, utility and manufacturing sector.

Oh yea, my kid's class went to watch a movie at the cinema for an "excursion". It's not an IMAX documentary and the movie ain't about some historical figure... maybe that's a good thing... but still... if I want to pay $100+ a year for a movie excursion, I demand at least 4 movies a year dam it.


----------



## pixel (30 November 2016)

Yeah, it's all Labor's fault! 

They came into Power when Howard's Baby Bonus Kids came of school age. The right thing would've been to build new schools, especially in those areas where teenage parents had boosted their welfare payments by baking some more bonus babies, creating another generation of welfare recipients.
Alas, it didn't occur to Labor that all these kids required special needs schools, not just a few laptops under Rudd's Education Revolution. Had Labor spent the required amount of money building schools rather than insulating homes, all these bonus babies would now be ready for University. Not to mention the extra profits Power Companies could've made from selling more power to cool and heat uninsulated homes.
Due to Labor's failing on those fronts, there are now fewer dividends and taxes from Power Companies, as well as fewer Uni students, forcing the LNP Government to keep cutting University funding, which in turn dumbs down the next generation.

*Labor has thus turned Australia from "the Clever Country" to a nation of Hanson and Abbott voters.*


----------



## explod (30 November 2016)

And the Uni Students that did graduate with Honours can't find a job.  "Jobs and Growth" a hundred times over and 19 applicant's to the job.

So following the mobile phone around is where we are at. :1zhelp:

Disclosure: I am a member of the Australian Unemployed Workers Union.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2016)

pixel said:


> Had Labor spent the required amount of money building schools rather than insulating homes, all these bonus babies would now be ready for University.




A lot of schools apparently got halls so that the kids could get out of the rain at lunch time.

Where of course they would swot up for their next lesson.




Liked the sarcasm of your post pixel, I'm sure our resident troll will respond.


----------



## Tisme (30 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> This must be all Labor's fault, even after 3 years
> 
> Australia crashing down international leaderboard for education, falling behind Kazakhstan
> 
> ...




It will always be Labor's fault, them and the CMFEU.

I'm guessing a lot of us older people have forgotten how we were always the bridesmaid and imported brains were put at the front of queue as educated desirables.  

I'm also guessing us oldies remember when male teachers were not universally pedophiles and allowed in the classroom unsupervised. Traditionally the hunter gatherer and warrior afflicted male brain has a more analytical bent towards maths and science, which I understand is where we are falling down, while more important things like human (let's talk about our feelings) sciences are in excellent shape.

Finally why would we be interested in training our kids to be me too workers? Where is our differential advantage in being a drone forced to keep up with drones in other countries. It's not like we have any industries that require anything but mundane tasks ...... it's not rocket science.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Finally why would we be interested in training our kids to be me too workers? Where is our differential advantage in being a drone forced to keep up with drones in other countries. It's not like we have any industries that require anything but mundane tasks ...... it's not rocket science.




Yes, you are right , we don't have the industries to employ highly skilled workers and we never will have unless we have the skills, vicious circle.

However we are not talking about rocket science but basic literacy and numeracy that these skills are built on. I put it down to high levels of welfare, baby bonuses and family tax benefits resulting in parents not caring about their kids education as long as they get the money.

Maths and science are too hard for most parents, and probably for teachers too so the kids don't have much chance really.


----------



## Tisme (1 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, you are right , we don't have the industries to employ highly skilled workers and we never will have unless we have the skills, vicious circle.
> 
> However we are  not talking about rocket science but basic literacy and numeracy that these skills are built on. I put it down to high levels of welfare, baby bonuses and family tax benefits resulting in parents not caring about their kids education as long as they get the money.
> 
> Maths and science are too hard for most parents, and probably for teachers too so the kids don't have much chance really.




I put it down to a maternal education system that has seen the cotton wool and everyone gets a medal mantra, smother playground activities, smother competition amongst peers, the disappearance of the male interaction and role modelling, the advent of feminised male behaviours, the promotion of sexual persuasion suggestiveness, etc.

Children have no time to be analytical (or physically fit) when they have a constant bombardment of compliance with social and conduct rules forced on them to consider by teachers who are instructed to do so by a bureaucracy that seems to have a desire to eliminate pastoral care from teachers who are more than robots.

Naplan is a great idea, but I think it now permeates the agenda rather than assess it.


And we will never have any smart industries while the politics isn't 100% behind it ... the great Ozzie cultural cringe


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I put it down to a maternal education system that has seen the cotton wool and everyone gets a medal mantra, smother playground activities, smother competition amongst peers, the disappearance of the male interaction and role modelling, the advent of feminised male behaviours, the promotion of sexual persuasion suggestiveness, etc.
> 
> Children have no time to be analytical (or physically fit) when they have a constant bombardment of compliance with social and conduct rules forced on them to consider by teachers who are instructed to do so by a bureaucracy that seems to have a desire to eliminate pastoral care from teachers who are more than robots.
> 
> ...





Maybe the government schools have given up trying to create excellence and just go for the lowest common denominator, leaving the private schools to pick up the gifted kids.

I suppose it's always been that way, but State schools seemed to have higher standards when I went to school.


----------



## Tisme (1 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the government schools have given up trying to create excellence and just go for the lowest common denominator, leaving the private schools to pick up the gifted kids.
> 
> I suppose it's always been that way, but State schools seemed to have higher standards when I went to school.




The report was predicated on Science and Maths poor outcomes. Chances are we will find out there was some kind of anomaly in the dataset and we are doing swimmingly well, but behind some Nordic country that snows people in for 6 months of the year.

Maths is fairly static insofar as the basics, so the standards shouldn't have budged, but I do recall my kids were learning stuff at least a year later in their ages than I was. This isn't a problem in my books and most of us use apps, macros and programs to do the heavy lifting on that score.

Science can be a moving feast, but I'd like to know what benchmark is used to measure student outcomes on an international scale. Demographics because of geographics would tend to skew the focus for each country IMO.


----------



## luutzu (1 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the government schools have given up trying to create excellence and just go for the lowest common denominator, leaving the private schools to pick up the gifted kids.
> 
> I suppose it's always been that way, but State schools seemed to have higher standards when I went to school.




I thought private schools are just for kids whose parents could afford it, talent got nothing to do with it. Sure, they might give a few scholarships here and there to the talented kids, but that's more to attract talent than anything else.

Selective schools would be where the talent, or obedience, would be right?


----------



## Tisme (1 December 2016)

Seems to me the questionnaires are rather subjective and teachers could be driven to skew their answers to garner sympathy for more resource.

http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-contextual-q.html


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## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Seems to me the questionnaires are rather subjective and teachers could be driven to skew their answers to garner sympathy for more resource.
> 
> http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-contextual-q.html




Like the bottom AFL teams getting the first draft picks ? Tanking et al.

Maybe keep that scheme but sack the principals of the badly performing schools to ensure there is some incentive to "play well".


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

How to make maths interesting ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...r-child-asks-whats-the-point-of-maths/8084494


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## drsmith (1 December 2016)

Who said maths wasn't interesting ?

https://www.youtube.com/user/mathbff/videos


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## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

drsmith said:


> Who said maths wasn't interesting ?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/mathbff/videos




How did she graduate ? I solved the simultaneous equations in half the time she did.


----------



## drsmith (1 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> How did she graduate ?



As you reckon you're smarter than she is, I'll leave you to consult Dr Google.

If after that you need a second opinion, you're uglier than she is.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2016)

drsmith said:


> As you reckon you're smarter than she is, I'll leave you to consult Dr Google.
> 
> If after that you need a second opinion, you're uglier than she is.




I can't argue with that.

:1zhelp::1zhelp:


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## SirRumpole (13 December 2016)

I heard an 'educator' this morning twittering on about creativity, imagination and student engagement not being measured by the NAPLAN tests. No doubt these are important, but hard to teach. Should we just go back to the three R's and teach the fundamentals so that kids at least heve the basic knowledge and will learn the other things by experience ?


Stalling NAPLAN results spark calls to raise expectations on teachers, students


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...ark-calls-to-crack-the-whip-in-school/8113518


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## luutzu (13 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I heard an 'educator' this morning twittering on about creativity, imagination and student engagement not being measured by the NAPLAN tests. No doubt these are important, but hard to teach. Should we just go back to the three R's and teach the fundamentals so that kids at least heve the basic knowledge and will learn the other things by experience ?
> 
> 
> Stalling NAPLAN results spark calls to raise expectations on teachers, students
> ...




From experience teaching my own kids, it takes a lot of time and effort to teach them in a creative and engaging way. Much easier to just teach them route learning and facts as they are. That leaves more time for YouTube and other multi-media teaching aid at school. 

That and if you teach kids that they should question and think things through - i.e. being engaged, creative and rational; i.e. question everything... That will backfire on the parents, and also on state authority.

Depends on the kind of parent one wants to be.. you might want your authority questioned. But for gov't and politicians.. why would they ever want their authority and status as the wise and noble law giver be challenged with questions and thinking plebs?

Hence, just teach the future cog in that machine to be a cog. Let the thinking and planning to others who knows best. Cheaper that way.

So take the times table....

I could have taught our daughter the entire times table in a couple of weeks if I just let her sing and memorise it. Kids got good memories and can just absorb that 2 x 1 = 2, 2x 2 is 4 etc. etc.

But to teach them to "prove" that 2 times 2 is 4.. .that take a lot more effort. You start with grouping; breaking things down, adding new groups; problem solving. 

They get more engaged and can solve much bigger multiples than just up to 12. They also learn that any big and seemingly impossible problem can be solved if they break it down to its smaller parts.

These lessons are invaluable later in life. And can be taught and became ingrained from proper teaching of just that times table.

But at the gov't level... "where do you get the money for that" when you got wars to fight, tax cuts to give, generous pensions to pay yourself.


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## SirRumpole (13 December 2016)

> But to teach them to "prove" that 2 times 2 is 4.. .that take a lot more effort. You start with grouping; breaking things down, adding new groups; problem solving.




1. Pick up calculator

2. Turn it on

3. Enter 2 X 2 = 

4. Problem solved.


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## luutzu (13 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> 1. Pick up calculator
> 
> 2. Turn it on
> 
> ...





I do that too.
Another instance of do as I say, not as I do 

My dad actually does division on paper, still, today, with his smart phone nearby. 

Dam, I got to teach the kids long. manual division soon. Where do you start with that kind of voodoo.


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## Tink (22 February 2017)

*NSW Education: School syllabus shake-up promotes the classics, Shakespeare and Austen back for the HSC*

Ineffective school courses riddled with lightweight texts have been dumped and Shakespeare is back under the biggest overhaul of the HSC syllabus in two decades.

The classical works of the Bard, Jane Austen, Charles Dickens and Joseph Conrad will become mandatory for Year 11 and Year 12 students to study in new back-to-basics syllabuses to be unveiled to schools today.

Writing skills, grammar, punctuation, vocabulary and proper sentence structure will also be given much greater priority under the shake-up as a compulsory part of the new English syllabus.

William Shakespeare ... The Bard is back in the HSC Syllabus.
Whole study areas criticised by students, parents and teachers as “woolly concepts” have been dumped, including the requirement to interpret English texts through a theme such as “Journeys”, “Discovery” or “Belonging”.

In maths, a knowledge of financial literacy, statistics and the application of technology such as knowing how a Google algorithm works will be mandatory.

The science syllabus will include study of desalination, stem cell research, gravitational waves and the prediction of seismic events.

Australia’s longest-serving prime minister Sir Robert Menzies receives three references in the revised History Extension syllabus, while Labor hero Gough Whitlam gets just one.

Both world wars along with the role of the Anzacs in Australian politics and culture are included in the new history syllabuses.

“We are emphasising depth above breadth,” the president of NSW Education Standards Authority Tom Alegounarias said yesterday.

Charles Dickens is returning to the HSC syllabus

Jane Austen will be mandatory for years 11 and 12
“Previously, there was too much choice (of subject material) that lent itself to rote learning.

“In science there will be more science and less social theory, so that the course ‘Search for Better Health’ will become ‘Non-infectious Diseases and Disorders’, and ‘Moving About’ will become ‘Kinematics and Dynamics’.

“This has come at a time when we want more experts in science … so if you are studying physics then you will have to study the more difficult maths.”

Education chiefs said they had listened to sustained criticism from employers and businesses that many school leavers applying for jobs lacked basic skills in literacy and numeracy.

All subjects will now have a “work and enterprise” component, making them more relevant to the workplace for students.

Civics and citizenship will be embedded across the curriculum to a much greater extent to teach students basic life skills in the community.

The changes are aimed at shoring up the international reputation of the HSC and making it more rigorous and accessible to students.

Mr Alegounarias said the state’s teachers would need to do more professional development to get up to speed on the changes to the course content.

“The key is that these syllabuses haven’t changed for a couple of decades,” he said.

“There will still be choices available, but what we want is mastery (by students over the subjects they study).

“They will provide HSC students with a richer learning experience and enable them to develop a greater mastery of knowledge and skills.

“In English, for example, Shakespeare or the equivalent other aspects of great literature will be mandatory.”

The CEO of the Education Standards Authority David de Carvalho stressed the changes were designed to better prepare school leavers for the real world: “The syllabuses are designed to equip NSW students with the skills they will require after they leave school, for further study, for work and life.”

Catholic Education Commission NSW executive director Brian Croke said the new syllabuses would encourage students to study traditional core courses rather than avoid them in favour of what were seen as “easier” subjects.

Dr Croke said new mathematics pathways in Years 9 and 10 would prepare more students for success in the study of calculus and statistics in Year 11 and 12 courses.

“These new syllabuses will allow students to study courses that are most appropriate to their ability,” Dr Croke said. “This will help ensure continued high participation rates particularly in physics, chemistry and maths at a time when more students are completing Year 12 than ever before.”

More than 7000 teachers, students, professional associations, industry representatives and academics have contributed to the new syllabuses, which will be taught to Year 11 students from 2018 and to Year 12 students from 2019.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...c/news-story/57ed0055ea09f3ea6a5348e904292902


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## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Australia’s longest-serving prime minister Sir Robert Menzies receives three references in the revised History Extension syllabus, while Labor hero Gough Whitlam gets just one.





In inverse proportion to their achievements. (Mathematics).


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## Tisme (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In inverse proportion to their achievements. (Mathematics).




Charles Dickens would cause consternation amongst erudite Liberals as being a socialist manifesto. Luckily that problem probably won't arise.


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## Tisme (24 February 2017)

Say wot!!!

_"......there is no evidence of a particularly risk-averse culture in Australia. Indeed, one of the higher rankings for Australia is for early stage entrepreneurship activity."_

https://theconversation.com/austral...e-nation-can-do-better-and-hints-at-how-72659


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## SirRumpole (15 March 2017)

Our kids are not getting any better at science, although at least they are interested in it.

To me that indicates a deficiency in teaching quality.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...ng-behind-in-maths-and-science-report/8353202


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## Tisme (15 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Our kids are not getting any better at science, although at least they are interested in it.
> 
> To me that indicates a deficiency in teaching quality.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...ng-behind-in-maths-and-science-report/8353202




Is there any purchase in churning out mathematicians and scientists if there isn't any viable industries outside of govt and teaching to employ them?


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## Muschu (15 March 2017)

In a way, Yes, Sir R.... Most Australian primary schools lack the resources [read dollars] to set up a dedicated Science facility.   
There are multiple pressures on schools to "deliver", not only in literacy and numeracy, but in programs of general student services which attend to a whole range of requirements and needs relating to non-academic well-being.  In recent times this has increasingly meant mental health and working with families, agencies and specialists in this area of need.
The job is particularly difficult, as you will understand, in circumstances where there is very little parent or carer support.
A consequence of the whole scenario is the challenge of retaining teachers in the profession.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Is there any purchase in churning out mathematicians and scientists if there isn't any viable industries outside of govt and teaching to employ them?




It seems like a chicken and egg situation. If there is not a critical mass of qualified people here, then businesses that require them will go elsewhere.

Someone once said "if you build it, they will come". Maybe that applies to qualified people as well.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> In a way, Yes, Sir R.... Most Australian primary schools lack the resources [read dollars] to set up a dedicated Science facility.
> There are multiple pressures on schools to "deliver", not only in literacy and numeracy, but in programs of general student services which attend to a whole range of requirements and needs relating to non-academic well-being.  In recent times this has increasingly meant mental health and working with families, agencies and specialists in this area of need.
> The job is particularly difficult, as you will understand, in circumstances where there is very little parent or carer support.
> A consequence of the whole scenario is the challenge of retaining teachers in the profession.





I know there is this malaise that is projected on the calibre of student and teacher performance, but I just don't see it. 

One of my own teaches E Commerce, Robotics, Mathematics and Programming and that's from year 8 to year 12. The only complaints I am privy to is the power play politics and sexist games that are played by randy school principals and the endless meetings and reviews that sap time and energy from teachers.

Teachers do not have the degrees of freedom to be good or bad that the public think they have. They are more set criteria delivery givers getting orders from a head office bureaucracy via principals, deputy principals, head of departments, etc


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems like a chicken and egg situation. If there is not a critical mass of qualified people here, then businesses that require them will go elsewhere.
> 
> Someone once said "if you build it, they will come". Maybe that applies to qualified people as well.




Well I'm sure we can turn out Astrophysicists too; I sat next to a young QLD lad who was one and travelling from LA to Brisbane a couple of years back, but schooling them to go offshore (in this case New York) and eventually never to return is hardly a good use of resource.

Economically it is probably cheaper just to continue importing the second rate engineers and administrators from the middle east, the east and the sub continent. It's not like we do much anything that requires high level skill sets here except maybe the top tier trades.

We are basically an economy that runs on what comes out of a hole or pipe in the ground and wrap loads of paper shuffling and rules making around the process. We are a stagnant nation flagellating ourselves with risk aversion and political correctness to overcome the tedium and boredom of doing nothing much really..... the halcyon days of giving clothes lines, stump jump ploughs and victor mowers to the world have long gone.

We could all take a leaf  from our neighbours when it comes to educating their people and gazumping us in education ratings:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...30L-for-fake-degrees/articleshow/52788630.cms


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## SirRumpole (15 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> We are a stagnant nation flagellating ourselves with risk aversion and political correctness to overcome the tedium and boredom of doing nothing much really..... the halcyon days of giving clothes lines, stump jump ploughs and victor mowers to the world have long gone.





Unfortunately true, and the numb brain anti science politicians like Tony Abbott set the cause back by decades.

What we need is a pro science government who is prepared to invest in actual science projects like a Space Agency, something "sexy" that will attract people here while providing a decent ROI.

NASA is a government organisation after all, and they don't build everything they use they just contract the work out to private industry.

With a bit of foresight (like the people who set up CSIRO) we can get the place moving again.


I can see great opportunities in the education system for retired scientists, engineers, mathematicians etc or those whose jobs are being made redundant.


They have the practical experience in the occupations that the fresh out of teacher's college graduates don't. Why not use this spare capacity ?


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## Tisme (15 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What we need is a pro science government who is prepared to invest in actual science projects like a Space Agency, something "sexy" that will attract people here while providing a decent ROI.
> 
> .




Now you are starting to channel the ghost of Joh Bjelke and he made Abbott look wet behind the ears.

Liberal Party has never been one for getting its hands dirty by getting into secondary and services industry build. If you look back over 20th century it was mainly the Labor Party who were the industrial and big urban project enablers, although various LNP state premiers did do some grand primary industries schemes like the ORD River dam in WA and many in QLD.

It's those Labor initiated state owned enterprises and utilities that Paul Keating and John Howard sold to cement their credentials as economic managers.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> It's those Labor initiated state owned enterprises and utilities that Paul Keating and John Howard sold to cement their credentials as economic managers.




So, bring back a Labor government then . 

I doubt if the ghost of Chifley still exists in the Halls of Labor though, the one's that rattle the chains are the economic manager types that you mentioned who are pale shadows of the can-do Labor forebears.

Jay Wetherill seems to have the right idea. I wonder if he could be drafted Federally.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So, bring back a Labor government then .
> 
> I doubt if the ghost of Chifley still exists in the Halls of Labor though, the one's that rattle the chains are the economic manager types that you mentioned who are pale shadows of the can-do Labor forebears.
> 
> Jay Wetherill seems to have the right idea. I wonder if he could be drafted Federally.




I'm not familiar with SA politics, except that South Australians, like West Australians love to hate their premiers, but if an outsider tries to criticise or poach them there is a palpable level indignation from the locals.


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## Muschu (15 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I know there is this malaise that is projected on the calibre of student and teacher performance, but I just don't see it.
> 
> One of my own teaches E Commerce, Robotics, Mathematics and Programming and that's from year 8 to year 12. The only complaints I am privy to is the power play politics and sexist games that are played by randy school principals and the endless meetings and reviews that sap time and energy from teachers.
> 
> Teachers do not have the degrees of freedom to be good or bad that the public think they have. They are more set criteria delivery givers getting orders from a head office bureaucracy via principals, deputy principals, head of departments, etc




Not sure what you mean by "I just don't see it" Tisme but you are right about teacher freedom.  However the department heads, principals, directors etc are all accountable.  What becomes most important is the nature of leadership and the inclusion of teachers in decision making. But, as in most organisations, decision-making is withing the confines of matters such as the Australian [or State version of] Curriculum.

My previous comment was actually referring to resource in primary schools.  

And, as in all occupations, there are teachers who are "better" than others.  

Schools often have the autonomy to determine their own "specialist" programs [numeracy and literacy are a given].  But Primary schools simply are not equipped to do it all.  I know of one primary school that has a dedicated science program with an internationally acclaimed specialist. Another school might determine they need to prioritise physical education for example.  And increasingly schools are also responsible to their specific community via a School Board.

Big topic with no easy answer.  Kids deserve a quality education with quality teachers.  The vast majority of teachers, in my 50 years of experience, are very committed.  But they are also an easy target for those who wish to blame.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> Not sure what you mean by "I just don't see it" Tisme but you are right about teacher freedom.  .




I don't see the symptoms of the malaise insofar as the kids seem better educated, better communicators, etc  compared to the drone existence my cohorts and I endured both at school and generally. Sure we had sports, Gilligan's Island and took off for holidays, but the kids of today are tuned into fast pace and pretty switched on I reckon.

Are we just asking too much and are we competing against phantoms that exist in rarefied communities in regimented (potentially dishonest) societies where kids are streamed into a profession from the cradle?


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## Muschu (16 March 2017)

Good points Tisme... 

Certainly so much has changed since I went to school; when I began teaching; when I retired as a Principal; and to now where I still have consultancy involvements in education.

I often think of how much one of my grandmothers lived through - being born in 1899 and dying a month short of the telegram.....

The external world has changed and that has impacted upon parenting and upon teaching - and made neither any easier.

I find my hope in seeing so many wonderful kids; great parents; and fabulous teachers.  Yes, of course there is the "dark side" where parents and educators don't cope so well.... But I am optimistic about the future of education.

There are things that need to be constantly reviewed imo... School and teacher accountability can be too extreme; change management needs very astute leadership; work and "life" need to be balanced.... 

And there are challenges out there that face our kids and test us all.  Substance abuse and technology abuse being just two.

One thing I am confident about is that parents and teachers need to work together as best as they possibly can.


----------



## Tisme (16 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> Good points Tisme...
> 
> Certainly so much has changed since I went to school; when I began teaching; when I retired as a Principal; and to now where I still have consultancy involvements in education.
> 
> ...




One of the dangers I see is a lack of oversight when it comes to secondary school Principals. 

It's all well and good corporatising the schools, but unlike private enterprise the workforce does not have the freedoms to move on and leave baggage behind. If they are sexually harassed, pursued and bullied by their chiefs, teachers risk their whole carrier if they complain. The union reps are often teachers themselves which means they too have to walk the eggshells.

Middle aged male Principals seem to have a habit of garnering harems that evolve into Alkhansaa brigades that delight in making other female staff miserable, fedup and fearful. The manual arts teachers are generally the last bastion of free tongues and common manners, although that is also in the crosshairs.

Once upon a time there were fearless, friendless roaming superintendents who answered only to the education bosses... I feel this is missing in the equation.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I don't see the symptoms of the malaise insofar as the kids seem better educated, better communicators, etc compared to the drone existence my cohorts and I endured both at school and generally. Sure we had sports, Gilligan's Island and took off for holidays, but the kids of today are tuned into fast pace and pretty switched on I reckon.




Are you talking about private or public education in your experience ?


----------



## Tisme (16 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you talking about private or public education in your experience ?




My family tree is saturated with teachers (including directors and principals) past and present. So my views are weighted by their experiences. One of mine had the task of assessing the performance of delivering certain subjects in various private schools until recently and I think this is where Muschu's comment about the calibre and talents of teachers becomes a salient issue.

Private school teachers don't enjoy the same level of renumeration, super, professional development courses, etc and the degrees of disconnect between their private lives and the school. Many are those who can't gain permanency in state schools.

While flash new schools are being built by the Catholics, there are still many that do not have the resources required to deliver the subject content correctly. Sort of like Sandstone Universities that are all facade and prestige, but not necessarily educationally superior.

Personally I suspect a Bayesian regression model might show up the stagnation of the dependent 'outcomes improvement' variable as the 'private school population percentage' variable increases. Of course I have no proofs of that and I'm not sure if true unadulterated datasets exist to discriminate between state and private.


Round One !


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## SirRumpole (16 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Private school teachers don't enjoy the same level of renumeration, super, professional development courses, etc and the degrees of disconnect between their private lives and the school. Many are those who can't gain permanency in state schools.




That surprises me. I would have thought that private schools  and the isolation from the riff raff would be attractive to teachers . Maybe there is an oversupply of teachers in private schools as a result and therefore lower pay ?

Anyway I can't comment too much as I only went to a public school in the 70's .


----------



## Muschu (16 March 2017)

A little more later as I have to go out.  All Principals in my State [WA] are very accountable and many are female.  If a school has serious issues then they can be subjected to an inquiry by an expert review group who can prescribe obligatory improvement strategies.  These are then monitored by other directors and by the review group.  A summary of the review is posted, for some time, on schools online - a public website.  The degree of inspection and accountability is vastly higher than it was even 15 years ago. 

Also, depending on the organisation, private school teachers are often paid significantly more than those in government schools - although all salaries, government and other, vary from state to state. i know that from interviewing private school teachers and from relatives and friends who work in private schools. 

There was some truth, imo, to the comments about manual arts teachers.  This has dissipated greatly in my observations of schools where "whole school" policies and "distributed leadership models" serve as a support for teacher-inclusive decision making and as a barrier to teacher isolation.  Of course there are  variations between schools. 

Private school resources also vary greatly.  Just down the road from me is a Catholic secondary school with all the bells and whistles. Perched on prime beach-side land it built what is really a professional theatre a few years back; and is now completing a huge gymnasium that would have cost millions.

About 10km away is another Catholic secondary school that just gets by financially.

Have to go - that took more time than I have.

Have a good day...


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## SirRumpole (16 March 2017)

Some more disturbing news about schools.

*Australian kids behaving badly in classrooms, OECD report says*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...-badly-in-classrooms-says-oecd-report/8356506


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## Muschu (17 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Some more disturbing news about schools.
> 
> *Australian kids behaving badly in classrooms, OECD report says*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...-badly-in-classrooms-says-oecd-report/8356506



Yes no question this remains an issue - although not everywhere thank goodness.  And all schools devote enormous effort to develop positive behaviours.  Big topic... Not confined to Oz of course. And another reason for parents and schools to work together, along with specialist agencies and others.


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## Muschu (17 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> ....
> Middle aged male Principals seem to have a habit of garnering harems that evolve into Alkhansaa brigades that delight in making other female staff miserable, fedup and fearful....




For my own interest I just did a small exercise.  In the geographic area where I work there are 35 government secondary schools with 18 female Principals and 17 males. Good leadership is good leadership and all are selected on merit through very rigorous processes.


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## Tisme (17 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> For my own interest I just did a small exercise.  In the geographic area where I work there are 35 government secondary schools with 18 female Principals and 17 males. Good leadership is good leadership and all are selected on merit through very rigorous processes.




Is there a process in WA where staff can actually talk to a totally independent umpire without a formal complaints or merit penalty/reward outcome to any party? Purely a true picture of the landscape.


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## Muschu (18 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Is there a process in WA where staff can actually talk to a totally independent umpire without a formal complaints or merit penalty/reward outcome to any party? Purely a true picture of the landscape.




Sorry Tisme but I am really not up-to-date with these processes so can't really comment with any certainty.  I do know that support systems were in place for any teacher who was at issue with, for example, their Principal. 
As an example [and this is days past] there were many strategies for supporting an under-performing teacher that would rarely be found in the private sector. 
I should point out though that there are still mechanisms where every staff member at every level is held very accountable for their performance; as well as processes where teachers can lodge grievances against their managers [or colleagues] where they feel they have been unjustly treated.
[I am not talking, as I am sure you will have picked up, on any behaviour that may be illegal which may end up as a police investigation].


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## Tink (18 April 2017)

The controversial Safe Schools program has been axed from schools in New South Wales, with federal government funding to be pulled by the middle of the year.

Education Minister Rob Stokes announced a new anti-bullying scheme will come into effect from July.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2017/04/16/-safe-schools--program-dumped-in-nsw.html

Liberal Senator James Paterson says taxpayers should be paying for an anti-bullying strategy not 'Safe Schools'


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

Tink said:


> The controversial Safe Schools program has been axed from schools in New South Wales, with federal government funding to be pulled by the middle of the year.
> 
> Education Minister Rob Stokes announced a new anti-bullying scheme will come into effect from July.
> 
> ...




Good to see someone recognising that there are more causes of bullying than just LGBxyz.

Merely disagreeing with "the mob' or those in charge of the gang could be a reason for persecution.

It's a wide issue that should be addressed across the spectrum.


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## Tisme (18 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Good to see someone recognising that there are more causes of bullying than just LGBxyz.
> 
> Merely disagreeing with "the mob' or those in charge of the gang could be a reason for persecution.
> 
> It's a wide issue that should be addressed across the spectrum.





From what I understand the "Safe Schools" program is all about creating social discrimination at the expense of the mainstream population's right to have an opinion and reaction?

Of course Bill Shorten will be defending the right for impressionable young people to be exposed to Govt backed soup of aberrant behaviours instead of enjoying the innocence of youth and individual maturation they were once entitled to.


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> From what I understand the "Safe Schools" program is all about creating social discrimination at the expense of the mainstream population's right to have an opinion and reaction?




The LGB's have to get an education somewhere but how many of them are there really ? One or two per school perhaps ?

Safe Schools was a push by a small but vocal group to use our money to push their agenda onto 98% of the population. I'm glad to see the scope of anti bullying has been widened.


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

More ideas on how to fix the broken education system.



*Our school funding system is unfair and holding Australia back. Here's how to fix it*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...-is-unfair-and-holding-australia-back/8435300


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## Tisme (18 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> More ideas on how to fix the broken education system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Of course the real reason the private schools get more money and prestige is because their students are thoroughbreds and come from the same stable as the LNP pollies and supporters. Can't have knuckle dragging working class puling on the reins when we are trying to outpace totalitarian countries who are out in front of their 3rd world pack.


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Of course the real reason the private schools get more money and prestige is because their students are thoroughbreds and come from the same stable as the LNP pollies and supporters. Can't have knuckle dragging working class puling on the reins when we are trying to outpace totalitarian countries who are out in front of their 3rd world pack.




Indeed so. The same reason the Libs won't do anything about negative gearing, it's the Liberal voters who have their snouts in the tax minimisation trough.


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## sptrawler (18 April 2017)

Let's move it back on topic.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...ing-degree-requirements-for-some-jobs/8449236

We have stuffed up the education system so much, they will end up resorting to aptitude tests, at least that has some degree of sensibility.
Dropping the testing standards, then dropping the entrance standards, has to eventuate in chaos.
In the 1970's, 5% of students went on to university, the rest left at 15 to do apprenticeships or left at 17 to become technicians, draftsmen etc.
Now everyone gets a go at UNI, magic the clever Country because everyone has a degree, what a joke, we are now calling it academic inflation.
Well that was obviously going to happen, let's make teaching a degree and we might as well make nursing a degree and why not surfing.lol

It is just sad, that young people are bribed into believing that a University education ensures their future.
Let's forget about the outcome, let's just concentrate on the through put, and the dollars.


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## Tisme (19 April 2017)

One way to get around blockades on refugees and immigration:

https://stopforeignownershipinaustr...mps-tafe-contracts-sends-jobs-to-philippines/


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## Tink (23 May 2017)

We were at Monash University yesterday where they mentioned their century old roots of Bologna University.

_'Ancora Imparo'_
http://www.unibo.it/en/university/who-we-are/our-history/the-numbers-of-history

Just thought I would mention it.


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## Triathlete (30 July 2017)

An interesting view from a concerned mother:


https://www.facebook.com/youreteach...7EV22ouSiC9i3L62sViygv-udSp8Sj1yC4L68&fref=nf

www.youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org

https://www.facebook.com/AUConservatives/


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## Tink (18 August 2017)

Peter Dutton calls for sackings after bureaucrats’ sneaky attempt to bring back (un)Safe Schools

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...s/news-story/79fa36403b0c82328c80060efcdba001


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## Tisme (18 August 2017)

Tink said:


> Peter Dutton calls for sackings after bureaucrats’ sneaky attempt to bring back (un)Safe Schools
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...s/news-story/79fa36403b0c82328c80060efcdba001




If a knucklehead like Peter can see the bleeding obvious, it presupposes the idiots who can't shouldn't be in charge of policy.


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## SirRumpole (9 October 2017)

As much as I feel for parents with autistic children, should kids like this be in State schools or "special care" ? 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...-children-abused-neglected-at-schools/9021876


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## SirRumpole (29 November 2017)

More evidence that our education system is failing to provide for the needs of students and society.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/university-students-dropping-out-in-record-numbers/9203636


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 November 2017)

Can you quote any ASX listed companies involved in Education pertinent to your opininion, otherwise this sounds like a wank response on a financial thread.


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## SirRumpole (5 February 2018)

Pretty sad situation if police have to be embedded in schools.

I thought their job was to catch crims.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...d-in-high-risk-vic-schools-opposition/9395874


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## sptrawler (6 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> More evidence that our education system is failing to provide for the needs of students and society.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/university-students-dropping-out-in-record-numbers/9203636



This is obviously the problem with demanding most go to uni, and then making up courses for them to do, whether the courses are appropriate or not becomes secondary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...alian-education-system-jobs-atlassian/9373456

Maths isn't compulsory in year 11 and 12 in most States, maybe we should go back to the future and let kids leave at year 10 to do apprenticeships etc.
That would be novel, there are too many people with a vested interest in keeping kids at school.
Just another social engineering plan, gone haywire, as usual.


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## Tisme (19 February 2018)

Proud Dad takes picture of son receiving an award from his teacher:


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## orr (24 February 2018)

Lifted from a SMH article...
A little _worlds best practice _sprinkled down under. As the private school sector dusts off  it's rear guard action plan.  



DECEMBER 6 2017
PRINT
LICENSE ARTICLE
*World renowned education expert from Finland to join UNSW*
*Finland's leading education expert Pasi Sahlberg *


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## SirRumpole (14 March 2019)

Political correctness destroying Australia says academic.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...g-to-blame-for-climate-change-strike/10897682


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## Smurf1976 (14 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Political correctness destroying Australia says academic.



In my view political correctness is a problem in many ways not just in relation to climate.


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## basilio (15 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Political correctness destroying Australia says academic.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...g-to-blame-for-climate-change-strike/10897682



Ah Dr Donnely is  a special character.  His views on Climate Change come straight from "the jury is still out -  do nuttin" stream. Climate Change deniers dressed up as pious twats. 

I find it unbelievable that someone purporting to be an educational leader and wanting students to "learn science" etc decides that the overwhelmingly majority of climate scientists and the evidence of what is happening to our climate is insufficient to be properly concerned.
A 10 old kid could point out how dumbly wrong he is.

_Dr Donnelly, an education expert who has written about political correctness which he says is "destroying" Australia, said 1,000 international scientists had dissenting views about the cause and extent of climate change.

He said there had been next to no recognition of this by academics who support the striking students.

"It's all very well to be politically correct, but there's no rationality or reason behind it that stands up,"_


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## SirRumpole (15 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Ah Dr Donnely is  a special character.  His views on Climate Change come straight from "the jury is still out -  do nuttin" stream. Climate Change deniers dressed up as pious twats.
> 
> I find it unbelievable that someone purporting to be an educational leader and wanting students to "learn science" etc decides that the overwhelmingly majority of climate scientists and the evidence of what is happening to our climate is insufficient to be properly concerned.
> A 10 old kid could point out how dumbly wrong he is.
> ...




Two separate issues.

1. the reality of climate change
2. whether students should be taking it on themselves to 'strike' instead of being where there should be, in school learning.

and

3. we don't pay teachers for not teaching.


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## basilio (15 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Two separate issues.
> 
> 1. the reality of climate change
> 2. whether students should be taking it on themselves to 'strike' instead of being where there should be, in school learning.
> ...




Big questions here Rumpy.
The issue of CC is existential.  If we don't address it our civilisation will collapse. The time span for that process could be far closer than we realise.

It's that reality that is driving people to say "*Why the hell aren't we doing what has to be done ?"*  If you are teenager who gets this threat then a rational response is to demand action to save your future.

From a teaching perspective, students facing up to the consequences of what the science they are learning tells them is invaluable. Standing up and demanding that our leaders stop fapping around and take the action that CC demands is  courageous. It creates strength. It demands attention. It requires response. It creates skills and learning opportunities. 

When I excoriate  Dr Donnelly for his climate denialism I'm also targeting his fellow travellers who, IMO , are also liable for their refusal to recognize the dangers we are facing  by not addressing  the causes of CC.

In the near future we will face another series of challenges. How do we cope with the predictable disruption of extreme heat, extreme weather situations and uncertain water supplies ? What are our contingency plans to deal with these predictable scenarios ?


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## sptrawler (21 May 2019)

I wonder when we will see an improvement in student behaviour, now that they are working on a policy of mutual respect and moderation.

https://thewest.com.au/news/educati...abuse-threats-and-intimidation-ng-b881206384z


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## SirRumpole (21 August 2019)

Over reliance on Chinese students is placing Australian universities at risk says report.

As if we didn't know. 

The government has to look at our exposure to China in many areas and think about what might happen if they stop buying our stuff.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...dependent-on-chinese-students-report/11427272


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## SirRumpole (3 December 2019)

Our education standards continue to fall.

Our kids  are now 3 years behind China in Maths.

No wonder we are becoming known as white trash in Asia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...-maths-reading-science-getting-worse/11760880


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## qldfrog (3 December 2019)

And how can we have a rational talk about climate change with that level of science knowledge, or ask voters to decide economic choices


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## qldfrog (3 December 2019)

Democracy without individual knowledge is the road to mediocrity, populism and fascism..which can be left wing..as we can see with the CC propaganda or just looking back at history.
A very sad constatation indeed


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## SirRumpole (3 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Democracy without individual knowledge is the road to mediocrity, populism and fascism..which can be left wing..as we can see with the CC propaganda or just looking back at history.
> A very sad constatation indeed




You can either run a "everyone gets a prize" type system which caters to the lowest common denominator of both teachers and students, or a dog eat dog devil take the hindmost competitive system where only the best 'win'. These are the extremes and I think that the public and private school system demonstrate those ends of the spectrum.

One would hope that there would be a middle course that encourages achievement but lets students find their own levels comfortably and concentrate on their own interests and abilities.


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## qldfrog (3 December 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> You can either run a "everyone gets a prize" type system which caters to the lowest common denominator of both teachers and students, or a dog eat dog devil take the hindmost competitive system where only the best 'win'. These are the extremes and I think that the public and private school system demonstrate those ends of the spectrum.
> 
> One would hope that there would be a middle course that encourages achievement but lets students find their own levels comfortably and concentrate on their own interests and abilities.



Not sure the private system is that competitive here, probably starting from better material and background, and more effort to push the kids up, but not competitive 
What i followed, the chinese or Japanese systems, this is what i call competitive 
And you learn more in life when kicked in the ass than when  kissed on it.


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## dutchie (4 December 2019)

*Australian students are getting worse at maths, reading and science - and we're now three-and-a-half YEARS behind China and sliding down the world rankings to a miserable 29th*

*Maths skills of Australian students slid back years compared to counterparts*
*Australia ranked 16th in reading, 29th in maths and 17th in science, in FISA report*
*Education Minister Dan Tehan admitted the results were disappointing*
*More than 600,000 students in 79 countries took part in last year's PISA *
*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eading-science-according-new-PISA-report.html*


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## SirRumpole (4 December 2019)

How the high performing nations have improved their education systems.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...ems-in-world-arent-there-by-accident/11766042


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2019)

A teacher's view of what is wrong in our schools.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...ralian-mathematics-teachers-students/11768644


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## dutchie (4 February 2021)

Dumbing down the peasants.
Home schooling anyone? Although that will be stopped too.

A continuing concern being developed in the US which will eventually affect Australian schools.

*"
That may be about to change in Illinois. *A sweeping, controversial rule is pending for Illinois K-12 teachers that should prompt everyone, of all political stripes, to fear for how students may soon be taught.

Like every state, Illinois has a set of rules and standards for how teachers are trained, licensed and reviewed. In general, those rules are about competency, but do not impose any political or ideological belief system on teachers or their curriculum.

The Illinois State Board of Education wants to change those requirements with what it calls “Culturally Responsive Teaching and Leading” (CRTL) standards. They would largely replace the old apolitical focus on “critical thinking” with requirements that encourage “progressive viewpoints and perspectives.”

*Worse, the new proposed standards effectively go beyond requirements for what should be taught in classrooms. They effectively impose a political litmus test for teachers to get or keep a job in Illinois’ educational system.*

No matter their personal politics, no reasonable person should want kids’ classrooms politicized. Nor should they want teachers prevented from entering the profession, or pushed out, based on what they believe. The pending standards would open up a Pandora’s Box where school curriculum and children become yet another political football every time there’s a major shift in political power.

*These new rules are a distraction from what really matters for students – reading, writing and arithmetic.* Today, nearly two-thirds of Illinois elementary children fail to meet requirements in English language arts and math readiness, according to the Illinois Report Card.*"*





__





						Politicizing The Classroom: 9 Things To Know About Illinois' Pending "Culturally Responsive" K-12 Teaching Mandate | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


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## sptrawler (4 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A teacher's view of what is wrong in our schools.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...ralian-mathematics-teachers-students/11768644



He summed it up with this statement.
_It is a performing art, not a science, requiring a multiplicity of dispositional skills, including communication, empathy, emotional intelligence and listening ability_.

Teaching as we have said over and over is about the ability to engage the child, keep them interested, these days teaching is about finishing a course and getting a badge that says 'I'm a teacher' whether they are or not.


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