# Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally



## noirua (28 December 2007)

Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in a suicide bomber attack. Bomb thought to have been loaded with pellets. Bomber shot her in the chest and neck. She died in Rawalpindi General Hospital during an operation to save her life:  http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...CMP=KNG-powersearchSEM1&HBX_PK=benazir+bhutto
http://edition.cnn.com
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto


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## explod (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*

I had the great opportunity 15 years ago to examine Bhutto in a paper I had to submit in a leadership couse.

Strange but I do not feel shock, overwhelming sadness for her loyal followers very much but very quicly that this death will bring about an enormous purge in Pakistan.   With the military dictator calling the shots I had wondered at how a fair result would come in the election scheduled next year.  I am too shocked and upset for them all to think that constructively but the national feeling that will rise from this in the months ahead and her death will not be in vain but there will be huge turmoil in the months ahead.

The happenings of Pakistan are far removed from the everyday life of Austrlalia but this event will be the catalyst to isolate and rid the world of military dictatorships and restore the equal voice of people.

To know her (even if it was only through books) was to love her.   A very sad day.


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

o man, that's terrible.  
but thanks for your posts noi and explod.

She had become fairly pragmatic of late - only way to get through to Musharraf.  "We (like the military) could have taken power by force.. But MY party does not believe in violence" etc 

I notice an emphasis on "undermining reconciliation and democratic development" rather than terrorism- in the first article anyway.   And also slogans against Musharraf, police fled scene etc  

He (Musharraf) has been so blatantly autocratic of late - sacking the judiciary etc - and people brought up with democracy usually don't like that. 

So many political assassinations on the sub-continent, sheesh.  And in USA of course,  Kennedies, (John, Robert), Martin Luther King.  

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...CMP=KNG-powersearchSEM1&HBX_PK=benazir+bhutto


> Angry supporters also took to the streets in the northwestern city of Peshawar as well other areas, chanting slogans against Musharraf.
> 
> In Rawalpindi, the site of the attack, Bhutto’s supporters burned election posters from the ruling party and attacked police, who fled from the scene.
> 
> ...


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



explod said:


> I had the great opportunity 15 years ago to examine Bhutto in a paper I had to submit in a leadership couse.
> 
> Strange but I do not feel shock, overwhelming sadness for her loyal followers very much but very quicly that this death will bring about an enormous purge in Pakistan.   With the military dictator calling the shots I had wondered at how a fair result would come in the election scheduled next year.  I am too shocked and upset for them all to think that constructively but the national feeling that will rise from this in the months ahead and her death will not be in vain but there will be huge turmoil in the months ahead.
> 
> ...




Much as I can understand your distress, it must be pointed out that it was silly of her to return to Pakistan to attempt to seize power through a democratic process.

Her family has been accused of corruptuon, she was a woman in an Islamic country, it is led by a powerful leader with an armed forces background, and Pakistan was at boiling point.

Add to this that on the borders with Afghanistan the rule of Islamabad does not exist and Osama and other nutter Islamists call the shots, literally.

Any death is tragic under such circumstances, this one was inevitable.

gg


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## explod (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Much as I can understand your distress, it must be pointed out that it was silly of her to return to Pakistan to attempt to seize power through a democratic process.
> 
> Her family has been accused of corruptuon, she was a woman in an Islamic country, it is led by a powerful leader with an armed forces background, and Pakistan was at boiling point.
> 
> ...




Stupid ? what about passion and belief; and necessity.

The assailant knew he would die for his cause, Bhutto surely would have know the risks, soldiers know the risks,  silly, stupid?

Giving your life for what you believe in.  I am not religious but Christians honour Christ for giving his life on the cross to save mankind.


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## Rafa (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



explod said:


> Stupid ? what about passion and belief; and necessity.
> 
> The assailant knew he would die for his cause, Bhutto surely would have know the risks, soldiers know the risks,  silly, stupid?
> 
> Giving your life for what you believe in.  I am not religious but Christians honour Christ for giving his life on the cross to save mankind.





Agree, coming back was a brave move....

But will her life save Pakistan... I hope so... history shows that states with a significant proportion of radical muslims are best goverened by a dictator, not by democracy... 

After all, democracy simply installs a populist govt, which in a state like pakistan may well infact be a fundamentalist muslim govt. And that ain't good for anyone


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## ithatheekret (28 December 2007)

Musharraf is the one is in charge , he wields the stick . Pakistanis are always under the stick , I know what I'd like to do with the stick .

With Bhutto now gone , Pakistan will overboil and Musharraf had best leave the country too . His friends will slowly desert him .


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Any death is tragic under such circumstances, this one was inevitable.




especially as she was in the military stronghold area of Punjab when it happened.


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



explod said:


> Stupid ? what about passion and belief; and necessity.
> 
> The assailant knew he would die for his cause, Bhutto surely would have know the risks, soldiers know the risks,  silly, stupid?
> 
> Giving your life for what you believe in.  I am not religious but Christians honour Christ for giving his life on the cross to save mankind.




I said it was silly not stupid.

She was an intelligent woman with much to gain from leading Pakistan.

She just made a silly decision by going back now.

Comparisons with Christ I'll leave to more theologically minded , but to my knowledge JC never went to Harvard and didn't have a partner indicted for corruption. 

I don't think she went there with the intention of "giving her life". I believe she wanted to be President of Pakistan.

gg


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## numbercruncher (28 December 2007)

Pakistan is unstable, Pakistan has nukes


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## Bushman (28 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Pakistan is unstable, Pakistan has nukes




...Pakistan hates India, India has nukes. Oh yes, and to close the sentence, Australia sells uranium to India. 

Oh f**k here we go again.


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## roland (28 December 2007)

Bushman said:


> ...Pakistan hates India, India has nukes. Oh yes, and to close the sentence, Australia sells uranium to India.
> 
> Oh f**k here we go again.




and I have shares in Zinifex who produce lots of radiation shielding lead


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## henry vanderhave (28 December 2007)

The gate has been opened and the dogs from hell are now running wild


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## Bushman (28 December 2007)

roland said:


> and I have shares in Zinifex who produce lots of radiation shielding lead




...so your portfolio will benefit from those mindlessly agitating for a 2000+ year old philosophy, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. 

When will these blasted Middle Eastern religious philosophies dating back to Ramses, Cleopatra and, off course, Julius Caesar, lose their grip on the world? I mean no-one believes the world is flat anymore.


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## Nyden (28 December 2007)

roland said:


> and I have shares in Zinifex who produce lots of radiation shielding lead




ha, sorry I just found that funny!  Insensitive...I know.


I really am tired of all these countries & their damn instability, why can't just conform to Western values, abandon their beliefs, & sing koombaya with the rest of us!


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



Rafa said:


> Agree, coming back was a brave move....
> 
> But will her life save Pakistan... I hope so... history shows that states with a significant proportion of radical muslims are best goverened by a dictator, not by democracy...
> 
> After all, democracy simply installs a populist govt, which in a state like pakistan may well infact be a fundamentalist muslim govt. And that ain't good for anyone



mmm interesting - "history shows" - presumably you are referring to Iraq?
I don;t think you can compare Pakistan and Iraq. 
And imo you are guaranteeing the rise of fundamentalism when you try to suppress moderate (non-military) politicians.  

extremism begets extremism, yes?
But it sure is a bludy mess.  And (speaking of history) the military probably have to take a lot of the blame - going back to their love of dodgey-bros-courts and hanging Bhutto's father etc. (imo).


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## Bushman (28 December 2007)

Nyden said:


> I really am tired of all these countries & their damn instability, why can't just conform to Western values, abandon their beliefs, & sing koombaya with the rest of us!




Bingo Nyden - lets dress you in robes and send you to Pakistan. Musharaf and Bin Laden singing 'kumbaya'. That surely would reverse the falls in Wall St overnight!


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## noirua (28 December 2007)

It looks as if Musharef is sounding out all the advice he can get and may well go for the favourite option. If it goes wrong, then he can expect support from those who advised him.

Bush wants a foot in Pakistan or a go-ahead to bomb areas of Pakistan. 

It's a difficult line for Musharef to tread. It is a matter of turning all this to his advantage.


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## IFocus (28 December 2007)

It’s the military in Pakistan that’s the key, they are held in high esteem as the defenders against India etc and they decide who holds power or at least must give tacit approval to who ever governs.

As long as there is unity amongst the senior offices and they are moderates then stability will rein amongst the chaos if that makes sense.

Pakistan generally is quite a tolerant Moslem country (women president?)and there is a relatively large middle / wealthy class from where the ruling / military /educated elite come from.

The big issue is the northern frontier area where the military are taking casualties almost every day but never hear about in the western press.



Focus


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## Sean K (28 December 2007)

The US must be fretting on this, although they should be prepared. 

I think Mush needs to keep control at the minute by actually using more force, otherwise the entire country will be in flames. 

But maybe they need that?


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## robert toms (28 December 2007)

There is an interesting article by Tariq Ali (today) in the guardian.co.uk regarding the current situation in Pakistan.
It helped me with a broader understanding of Pakistani politics.


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## Rafa (28 December 2007)

*Re: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack at rally.*



2020hindsight said:


> mmm interesting - "history shows" - presumably you are referring to Iraq?
> I don;t think you can compare Pakistan and Iraq.




Iraq is one such example, there are many more... Palestine is another, there is also Iran, and even Indonesia to a lesser extent.

Fudamentalist Islam and democracy don't mix... generally, wherenver there is democracy in a muslim state for some reason fundamentalism takes hold...

Even indonesia is a good example... under suharto (virtual dictator)... there was no fundamentalism and it was kept in check. Once Indonesia moved toward democracy, political parties that based themselves on Islam sprung up everywhere... and get a toe hold in the mainstream.

In a democracy, where majority wins... using Islam to gain popular support is an easy way to express your views and gain power.... (just see Iran!)

Such countries need secular military rule to be stable and safe... Just like Saddam Hussien, the old Shah of Iran, etc... if Musshraf looses control of Pakistan, there is going to be trouble in the region, no doubt about that...


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## mayk (28 December 2007)

I do not understand people who kill innocent people. Are they MAD? Have they completely forgotton the basic principle of human life "to live and let live". I never like corrupt politicians but have respect for decent, moral and transparent ones, who dedicate their life for the well being of fellowmen .

 I admire Benazir for her courage and conviction in democracy and 'rule of law' and just like any pragmatic person she thought that a stable transition from dictatorship to democracy might be the only viable option for Pakistan. People of Pakistan never disappointed the Daughter of the East, and elected her twice to become prime minister. But because of corrupt political system ( read her-husband Seriously how low can you get??), dismissed twice, by her own elected presidents.

The Military of Pakistan is very responsible and considered to be the best in muslim world .Think of it .6Million serving armed personnel!. Military in general is not corrupt, but the politician have corrupted the military and the lure of power has deviated some of the generals to force their version of 'Rule of Law' on the people of pakistan. First it was General Ayub( 1958), led be Yahya(1970) ( who subsequently devided the country in Pakistan and bangaladesh) followed by General Zia(1978), on whose foot steps now musharraf(1999) is walking.

First time in the turbulwent history of pakistan an independent judiciary was 'trying' to give the well chersihed freedom to the people of pakistan and was dismissed twice by the president Musharraf. He now seem to be out of touch with reality and is only considering ways to keep himself in power. Well the pharase "Power Corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" fit here.

This is the perfect time to announce emergency, not the time when he wanted to oust the judges because musharraf was not happy with them... Now government building are set alight , now is the time to act swiftly and protect government installation and people property. Musharraf and his so called advisors will be blamed for pushing pakistan to a point of no return.


Having said that all is not lost in Pakistan. Now some young blood ( Imran Khan anyone?) might appear and lead pakistan.  Might be a turning point in the history of pakistan and we might see an end to military rule and draconion dictatorship in Pakistan.


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

I notice that (after the last near miss a coupla months back) she left a note to be opened on the event of her death....
that should she die, it would be because Musharraf had not responded to her requests for adequate protection 


Then there's the chances of the aussies touring Pakistan?
anyone wanna bet that it won't be called off? - 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/28/2128456.htm?section=justin


> CA holds off on Pakistan decision
> Posted 2 hours 27 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 36 minutes ago
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

THis from 3 weeks ago ...... well I guess the assassins then could have been some political opposition - then again it could as easily have been the military yes? (who are after all a political opposition , and looking in the face of a whipping according to recent polls - always assuming free and fair elections of course) 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/08/2113506.htm



> Three Bhutto party workers shot dead in Pakistan
> Posted Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:30pm AEDT
> 
> Gunmen shot dead three workers of ex-prime minister Benazir Bhutto's opposition party in a pre-dawn attack in south-west Pakistan amid campaigning for January polls, police said.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

that wiki website on her now claims that AQ have claimed responsibility:- 
allegedly AQ said so by a phonecall to Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto



> She was assassinated on 27 December 2007, in a combined shooting and suicide bomb attack during a political rally of the Pakistan Peoples Party in the Liaquat National Bagh in Rawalpindi.[3] Eyewitnesses to the assassination stated to various news agencies that Bhutto had stood up through the sunroof of the white Toyota Land Cruiser that ferried her to the rally[4] to wave at supporters who were cheering her.
> 
> It was then a "thin man" on a motorcycle, carrying an AK-47 rifle, fired two shots, one into Bhutto's neck, and she collapsed, falling down into the vehicle.[4][5] Bhutto was rushed to Rawalpindi General Hospital where she died at 6:16 p.m. local time (13:16 GMT). The gunshot to the neck was reported as the cause of death, according to the Pakistani Interior Ministry.[6]
> 
> *An Al-Qaida leader based in Afghanistan was reported to have claimed responsibility for the attack*.[7] Her burial is due to take place in her hometown in Larkana, Sind, next to her father Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's grave.[8]




http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070037061&ch=12/28/2007 8:21:00 AM


> Friday, December 28, 2007 (Washington)
> *An Al-Qaida leader based in Afghanistan has claimed responsibility for the assassination of former Pakistan Premier Benazir Bhutto, whom he described as ''the most precious American asset.''
> 
> ''We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat (the) 'mujahadeen','' al-Qaida Commander and spokesman Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told the Italian news agency Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location.*
> ...


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## vishalt (28 December 2007)

Sad day for humanity.


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

> ''We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat (the) 'mujahadeen','' al-Qaida Commander and spokesman Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told the Italian news agency Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location.



why is it that these alleged quotes by AQ never seem to make sense ....??

so Musharraf isn't as much a threat to the mujahadeen as Bhutto? - what? is he soft of terror?


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## numbercruncher (28 December 2007)

I would assume Bhutto appealed to and vowed to help the poor and uneducated, exactly the people AQ easily recruit.

Not to mention a FEMALE pro democracy president? Yah sure Islamists would tolerate that


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## chops_a_must (28 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> why is it that these alleged quotes by AQ never seem to make sense ....??
> 
> so Musharraf isn't as much a threat to the mujahadeen as Bhutto? - what? is he soft of terror?




Yeah, he's allowed the Taliban to control a few areas in Pakistan.

Didn't yogi predict some important leader dieing? Hmmm, anyway, I predict an old, much loved Australian codger will die in the next month. :

What a shame that this lady dies. She must have known this was quite inevitable though. 

Was quite a looker in the 80s. I wonder if she has any daughters...


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## 2020hindsight (28 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> I would assume Bhutto appealed to and vowed to help the poor and uneducated, exactly the people AQ easily recruit.
> 
> Not to mention a FEMALE pro democracy president ? yah sure Islamists would tolerate that




maybe you're right m8, (the entrenched gender injustice you reckon) 
then again, maybe the Pakistan military made that phonecall 
and of course the AQ are mad enough to kill anybody - including blowing up those of their own faith. 

but after some of the stuff that came out after JFK and other assassinations, I wouldn't doubt anything.



chops_a_must said:


> Yeah, he's allowed the Taliban to control a few areas in Pakistan..



bludy marvelous !
now to see if there's an element of doubt/suspicion expressed by any of the authorities.   

Gotta be a major setback for the good guys anyways 

share market getting edgy I notice.


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## numbercruncher (28 December 2007)

Oh yeah, there would be absolutely no shortage of suspects and motives in this!


Could even be a wildcard solo operator, the scariest of them all!


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## noirua (29 December 2007)

Recent reports show that Benazir Bhutto was killed due to the force of the explosion, when she was thrown against an obstruction that was part of the sun/moon roof.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

the assassinations appear to be "bi-partisan" 

maybe the only reason Musharraf survives is the security he ensures for himself ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/28/2128571.htm?section=justin


> *Pro-Musharraf candidate killed in blast*: police
> Posted Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:01pm AEDT
> 
> A blast at an election meeting in Pakistan's troubled north-west has killed three people, including a candidate for the party that supports President Pervez Musharraf, police said.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

noi said:
			
		

> Recent reports show that Benazir Bhutto was killed due to the force of the explosion, when she was thrown against an obstruction that was part of the sun/moon roof.



interesting noi, that announcement on her cause of death says the bullets missed - 

a) the bloke is no more that a couple of feet away ! - how could he miss??
b) and also if you watch CNN long enough, (after they "clarify" with the sunroof lever theory) they go on give an (earlier) article where a doctor (named) describes two bullet wounds, one entering her neck hitting her spine, going into her head etc 

Here's that photo - shows the pistol (just inline with the right hand side of that white arch in the background) - about 2 feet behind her head.  The gunman appears to be riding on the back of her car. And Benazir Bhutto is just left of the frame by a whisker. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Benazir_Bhutto
Wiki likewise continues to run the two theories..


> Though early reports indicated that she had been hit by shrapnel or the gunshots,[5][6][7] the Pakistani* Interior Ministry *stated that Bhutto was not hit by either, and that she died of a skull fracture sustained when she hit the sunroof of the vehicle due to the force of the explosion.
> 
> The Pakistani* Interior Ministry *reported that Benazir Bhutto was killed by a gunshot wound to the neck.



CNN now reporting on the confusion...
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.death/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo


> *How did Pakistan's Bhutto die?*
> Conflicting reports about what caused the death of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto are fueling questions about the circumstances of her assassination.
> 
> Benazir Bhutto died Thursday after a suicide bombing at a political rally in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
> ...




Personally I would believe the bullet ....
and that they are "trying to deny her a martyr's death" ..


> Farzana Raja of Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party said the government's explanation is "a pack of lies," and she offered another explanation. "It was a sniper shooting," she said, also accusing the government of a "total security lapse."
> 
> CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson, who worked in U.S. intelligence in Pakistan during the Clinton administration, said he suspects Bhutto's enemies are attempting to control her legacy by minimizing the attack's role in her demise.
> 
> "*They're trying to deny her a martyr's death, and in Islam, that's pretty important," Robinson said*.


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## noirua (29 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> the assassinations appear to be "bi-partisan"
> 
> maybe the only reason Musharraf survives is the security he ensures for himself ...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/28/2128571.htm?section=justin




Welllll, I think Musharref is the only hope now and he will probably allow the election to go ahead and tie up some agreement with Benazir Bhuttos' successor. This would achieve his certain survival and allow some dealings behind the scenes with the Americans and a big excuse to bash the terrorists with American support.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> interesting noi, that announcement on her cause of death says the bullets missed -
> 
> a) the bloke is no more that a couple of feet away ! - how could he miss??
> b) and also if you watch CNN long enough, (after they "clarify" with the sunroof lever theory) they go on give an (earlier) article where a doctor (named) describes two bullet wounds, one entering her neck hitting her spine, going into her head etc
> ...



Just to confirm that distance....

Incidentally, the zoomed out photo is taken with a different camera....  you see the same bloke (with dark hair  - as if there are any blondes in Pakistan)  - riding at the back of the car - and the rectangle indicates the distance from the assassin (when he got on the car with the other bloke) and Benazir... - no less than a couple of feet.  - no question he woulld have hit her (imo)


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

Also , lol - notice how quickly (in that "lever theory" version) the video skips over where the assassin is standing - 
and official govt spokesman !!!
showing the final verdict of how she died!!
and , lol - not bothering to show you a clear image of the pistol ???

instead the camera pans past him at "blurr-speed"  
they are so full of bs it's not funny. 

THIS video shows much more detail... (the frame should look like the photo in frame #35 - with discussion in background)
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.death/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

THe second video (these all follow each other on CNN as you know) is the BS version. The footage of the incident (in that video) should look like the photo in the previous post...  It will quickly blurr across the gunman for instance...  

Notice also he gets mixed up about the lever on the left side hitting her (he indicates his left temple) and "hit her on her right side"   - sorry bud , but you are making it up !!  unless of course you can't tell left from right.


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## noirua (29 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Also , lol - notice how quickly (in that "lever theory" version) the video skips over where the assassin is standing -
> and official govt spokesman !!!
> showing the final verdict of how she died!!
> and , lol - not bothering to show you a clear image of the pistol ???
> ...




With the car moving on what was probably a bumpy road it may have been more difficult than you think.

It does seem certain that she failed to obey instructions on leaving the secure area and remain inside the vehicle. 

I suppose we are all guilty of delayed action. If the speed limit drops, so should we have reduced speed at the sign, not 10 or 20 metres after it.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

noirua said:


> With the car moving on what was probably a bumpy road it may have been more difficult than you think.
> 
> It does seem certain that she failed to obey instructions on leaving the secure area and remain inside the vehicle.
> 
> I suppose we are all guilty of delayed action. If the speed limit drops, so should we have reduced speed at the sign, not 10 or 20 metres after it.



noi
not sure where you're going there  (??)

I assume you agree
a) that she was shot by someone riding on the back of her car from no more than 2 feet
b) that earlier CNN footage discusses the detail of a bullet wound to her neck
c) the govt spokesman skims past that particular bit of footage
d) that he downplays the bullets etc / direct violence of her death, and hence it could be argued he is trying to deny her a martyr's death?
e) that in all probability - and given the inaccuracy of what he says - he is full of politically motivated bs.

PS when I said it pans past the gunman - it appears to be edited to do so... (imo)   the clip is "clipped" as they say.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

sharif: the elections are now pointless, meaningless, and of no relevance at all 

his party was also shot at yesteday it seems (CNN videos) - and 4 killed there as well


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Yeah, he's allowed the Taliban to control a few areas in Pakistan....




http://edition.cnn.com/
CNN has a video on .... 
*Pakistan: Terror Central *4:21
CNN's Nic Robertson reports on the Taliban's influence in Pakistan.
• CNN.com - CNN: Special Investigations 
Unfortunately I haven't worked out how to post a direct link ..
Classic double-talk / denials from the Pakistan military about how many Taliban in northern Pakistan, and how easily they move around.   "Almost all their leadership etc. 

Nic Robertson seems to be pretty switched on ... another of his reports :-
*Pakistan faces troubled future *5:07
CNN's Nic Robertson reports on who may be behind Benazir Bhutto's killing and what's next for Pakistani elections.


By coincidence there is a similar article (text  -  but with same title) - this one from when the "deal" was made with Taliban ...   three months ago
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={8A06C129-36E7-4CD9-B132-015B5DD74588}


> Terror Central
> By Kyle Dabruzzi
> FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, September 26, 2006
> 
> ...


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## noirua (29 December 2007)

Will post some more information later. Yes, 2020, you are winning the discussion, errrr, so far that is.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

noirua said:


> Will post some more information later. Yes, 2020, you are winning the discussion, errrr, so far that is.



noi ,  
just trying to keep up with the theories - sheesh - 3 so far ..  (the jpeg taken from CNN - I'm not as clever as you in posting direct links you 'll notice lol) 

PS Afghanistan  is becoming "surrounded" - Pakistan to the south, Iran to the West, etc - all with the potential to head into extremist territory 

Why the hell did we ever take our eye off the terrorism ball and go chasing oil in Iraq


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

speaking of cricket   (Imran Khan speaking out about a proper judicial probe into the assassination,  the possibility that AQ are not involved after all, 

and also Sharif asking Musharraf to step down to "save Pakistan"  
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/29/2128734.htm?section=justin



> Pakistan's Khan backs call for Musharraf to quit
> Posted 13 minutes ago
> 
> Pakistani opposition leader and former cricket star Imran Khan has called on President Pervez Musharraf to step down following Benazir Bhutto's assassination.
> ...






> He also says elections, which are due to be held on January 8, should be postponed in the wake of the violence.
> 
> "I do not understand how you can have elections on January 8. It makes no sense at all," he said.
> 
> "Who's now going to go in a public rally? *It's very easy to palm any killing [off to]... Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, or terrorists, but who is to know what really happened?"*



interesting comment that last one. 
Certainly Musharraf has recently shown himself to be as cunning as a cut snake, swapping the judiciary with corrupt "predictable" judges - and Khan has been very critical of course - including escaping arrest. etc 


> Yesterday, former Pakistan prime minister and opposition leader Nawaz Sharif called for Mr Musharraf to resign immediately to "save Pakistan", after the death of Ms Bhutto.
> 
> Mr Sharif says Mr Musharraf is a threat to the stability of Pakistan and the source of "all the problems confronting the nation."
> 
> "I demand that Musharraf quit power, without delay of a single day, to save Pakistan," he said.



The inference is that Musharraf is now a lame duck as well....  Any public support he had is gone / vanished apparently.


----------



## noirua (29 December 2007)

Her final moment videos (there are a few better ones that appear to be held, at the moment, by Youtube):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1rH1SmvGyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi_o8Vr2Kk8


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

noirua said:


> Her final moment videos (there are a few better ones that appear to be held, at the moment, by Youtube):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1rH1SmvGyU
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi_o8Vr2Kk8



exactly !!!!
the first one shows the gunman with pistol at superclose range to Benazir - arm fully extended, supported, etc. car going super slowly -  
Three shots !!
It would be impossible to miss!!! - sheesh

The second youtube is the one the "govt spokesman" uses - skips past the gunman - saying some blast threw her against the sunroof latch.  and says with military precision (paraphrased) "trust me, this clears up any ambiguity"   - such words reek of "spin" - especially when they skip most of the evidence.  

Just like with JFK's autopsy, (ignoring the pristine "magic" bullet hand-placed on his stretcher) , her body would be all the evidence necessary -  either there was or there wasn't a bullet wound to the neck.


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...CMP=KNG-powersearchSEM1&HBX_PK=benazir+bhutto


> Babar Awan, Bhutto’s lawyer, said: “The surgeons confirmed that she has been martyred.”




 Footage Of Benazir Bhutto Shooting Released 

The same footage as you just posted noi, but with more information attached (bludy worrying though understandable - revenge etc ) :-



> Bhutto was killed in the army garrison town of Rawalpindi.
> ....
> Party officials dismissed the government's new theory about Bhutto's cause of death and said a proper investigation was needed.
> ........
> "I personally saw the body," said Babar Awan, a leading member of the party who was at the rally. "That is a false claim. It was a targeted, planned killing."





> The people's anger was overwhelmingly targeted at the government, particularly President Pervez Musharraf, blamed by most people for being directly or indirectly responsible for Bhutto's death. Many questioned why security precautions had not been stepped up after a previous suicide attempt on Bhutto, which killed 140 people the day she returned from exile 10 weeks ago.
> 
> Bhutto's supporters say it is unlikely any of them will believe the government, whatever officials say in the coming days to try to stem the violence.
> 
> ...


----------



## mayk (29 December 2007)

Why would her corrupted husband not allow a full post martum ( autopsy ) to clarify the cause of her death? Somethings from Benazir's family don't add up. How can you call for an inquiry if you are not allowing to do a simple wound matching test. Should not take more than 10 minutes... 


I am not saying that their is no conspiracy theory, but making one out of nothing is important as well, Regarding the pace of a murder inquiry in pakistan. First prime minister of Pakistan Liaqt , Ironically was shot in exactly the same place around 60 years ago !. His case is still pending ( 6 decades ....). A lot of theories surround that case as well, because the shooter was shot down by the police and hence silenced after being captured.

Please donot make a saint out of her, yes she was courageous women  but she was corrupt, she is responisible for the death of her brother ( ask her niece Fatima Bhutto!!). She never ordered any enquiry in her brothers death ( who was killed by police in Karachi...). Her brothers were involved in hijacking planes and trying to plot terrorist plot against Pakistan....

My point is take the views of all side but don't trust anyone, even her party has political motivations. And unfortunately we might never know which version is true

And ultimately death was caused by the explosion directly or indirectly. Hence she was killed. The people who murdered her should be caught and brought to justice, no point in making conspiracy theories. Remember no point in killing more innocent people in the name of revenge. Around 40 people so for have died in riots, were their lives not worthy? This madness should be stopped at all cost.


----------



## Aussiejeff (29 December 2007)

Oh, now I get the Pakistani government line....

(1) The attack was by the (relatively) obscure Pakistani arm of the Taliban.
(2) Bhutto's death was really just an unfortunate accident. She ducked into a hatch handle. How silly of her! If she had ducked more carefully, she would still be alive!

Really.......





AJ


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

mayk said:


> .... And ultimately death was caused by the explosion directly or indirectly. Hence she was killed. The people who murdered her should be caught and brought to justice...



? mayk, I disagree - a couple of those 3 bullets killed her (as per the original theory / report of her wounds), 

and the assassiin blew himself up. 

If you are saying the Taliban and/or AQ should be brought to justice - great! - but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you - (but who nose? I hope you are right ). 

Incidentally, that youtube entitled "Footage Of Benazir Bhutto Shooting Released" has some attached text ....which ends with ..:- 



> The death of Bhutto has far-reaching implications. Some say it means the end of her political party, the most popular in Pakistan, because there is no clear successor. Others ventured to say it could mean the end of Pakistan, if the violence continues. In Bhutto's ancestral home, where she was buried, people shouted not only slogans against Musharraf but against the nation. *"We don't want Pakistan," they yelled*.
> 
> Across the country, people attacked anything to do with Musharraf's ruling




so yep, it's bludy serious.


----------



## ithatheekret (29 December 2007)

Methinks the government line was more concerned with staying put , even more so the lobbyists , I mean the Taliban etc. , when across the border the Hindus have just rolled in on a landslide victory mimmicking that of Kevs .

Not for one second do I think Musharraf has a care factor over the opprobrium attached to this event .

MayK stated facts ..... period . The lady was drop dead gorgeous , but she carried skeletons and I would very much doubt that any political opponent doesn't , didn't , has or even had .

The remoulding of the region will not be without bloodshed , Musharraf would know his days are numbered now and if I can extrapolate that down here from my little patch of sunshine , I can just imagine the in your face view he has .

When it boils down to it though my care factor on his fate is zero , right whack .


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## 2020hindsight (29 December 2007)

gotta feeling that Ron Paul's version isn't how it's gonna pan out ..

 ron paul on benazir bhutto assassination; usa foreign policy


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## mayk (29 December 2007)

This is the ignorance of people, AQ killed her, they should unite against fighting terrorism. It is definately not the end of Pakistan, Benazir political party has much to benefit from this tradegy (Sad I know but that is reality...), worst part is newspapers are tipping her corrupt husband to be the successor of the party if that happens then I am sure it will be end of Bhutto's  party. 

I would personaly like another bhutto to take control of the party. ironically her mother has witnissed the death of  her husband , and three childerns (all killed...) I can only imagine her pain and suffering.

I think  martial law followed by free and fair elections is a viable option  if the situation gets worse in Pakistan. Musharraf has to go to calm people down ( even if he is not responisble for her death).


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## chops_a_must (29 December 2007)

Who wants to make a bet on US forces storming Pakistani sites to steal their nukes?

In terms of US action... this is a rare occassion I would support it. But Dubya was an absolute moron to not insist on Pakistan de-arming before their alliance/ aid package et al in 2001. Clap clap.


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## noirua (30 December 2007)

mayk said:


> Why would her corrupted husband not allow a full post martum ( autopsy ) to clarify the cause of her death?




Because he wants to become leader of the party and knows that if everything can be quietened down in the next few weeks, an election can be called in February 2008 and he should win and achieve his wife's wishes.


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## 2020hindsight (30 December 2007)

As Imran Khan suggested when he said "easy to blame AQ, but who knows what really ghappened - need a judicial enquiry"

surprise,  surprise, maybe the AQ were not involved ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/29/2128806.htm?section=justin


> *Al Qaeda militant did not kill Bhutto: spokesman*
> Posted Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:31pm AEDT
> Updated Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:35pm AEDT
> 
> ...




And more people who saw the bullet wounds (multiple , in + out)  - wounds were weeping as they were cleaning her body for burial 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/29/2128839.htm?section=justin



> Bhutto's party rejects Govt 'lies' over death
> Video has been released showing someone waving a gun near the vehicle just moments before the explosion, but the interior ministry says the body had no gunshot or shrapnel wounds.
> 
> Senior members of Ms Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party (PPP) have dismissed the Government's version of events as "lies" and "nonsense".
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (30 December 2007)

Is fecit, cui prodest. (?)
"Done by the one who profits from it." (?)


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## mayk (30 December 2007)

I will take any advise from someone who is not a professional doctor with a grain of salt, she has to gain some political mileage out of this scenario. They were saying that a bullet hit her chest as well, now she is saying that a bullet only hit her head, they have also changed their position, just like government .

 Newspapers are tipping her 19-year-old son to be the next chairperson of the party, but her corrupt husband will remain to be the king maker in the party. 

On a side note, it is such a shame that an ardent supporter of democracy will not allow the democratic values to be in corporated in her party. Which is autocratic.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 December 2007)

mayk said:


> I will take any advise from someone who is not a professional doctor with a grain of salt, she has to gain some political mileage out of this scenario. They were saying that a bullet hit her chest as well, now she is saying that a bullet only hit her head, they have also changed their position, just like government ..



mayk, mmm
I don't think it's a change of story - there were three bullets were there not? 

Are you saying you think, from that video, that that gunman could have missed?   with all of the three shots?

Are you saying that blind freddy couldn't tell multiple bullet wounds. ?

Are you saying you believe the sunroof lever theory in preference to the bullet(s) theory (or give it equal weight)? 

Here's another question - no real importance this one (this is "pinch of salt" territory, my own theory ..) ... if the blast of the bomb was significant where her head was (since it went off behind the car - and then the lever killed her, etc - and if the bomb was full of pelletts - then why doesn't she have at least a pellet or two in her body.? 

As for who takes over the party now etc , and their level of "corruption" - how do you score Musharraf on corruption?  I would agree with Imran Khan when he says he's blatantly corrupt.

PS apparently she left "instructions / her preferences / whatever" in her will as to how she would wish the party to go into the future in the event of ,,, etc etc


----------



## mayk (30 December 2007)

> Are you saying you think, from that video, that that gunman could have missed? with all of the three shots?
> Are you saying that blind freddy couldn't tell multiple bullet wounds. ?




I am not saying that no bullet hit her, I am just saying that they should have let a full post martum to determine the cause of death, rather than saying I saw 3 bullet wounds. Can you tell me the experience of her friend in seeing bullet wounds and distinguising them from pallet or lever ones??  I donot believe the story of the givernment either, but I guess some  portion of blame  lies with the benazir's party and her husband to not let the inquiry run its course. Can you name a murder/assination which ended without a postmartum in modern times? It is tentamount to hiding the truth and facts. I know their party will never exhume her body and this matter will remain a subject of discussion for years to come. 

I think if the final statement was not hurried it would have only presented only one story and no one would have objected to that. Still I beleive the politics is more involved than telling transparently what happened. I am also surprised as to why there were no camera's pointing to the rally. Personally I think assination by a sniper story is more dramatic and enigmatic than a simple accidental death. As I said earlier, Benazir was killed and no one is denying this fact. The focus should be on capturing the culprit and stablizing the country, rather than starting a never ending balme game.



> Are you saying you believe the sunroof lever theory in preference to the bullet(s) theory (or give it equal weight)?




I am giving equal weitage to both of them and personally like to exhume the body to find out the truth...



> Here's another question - no real importance this one (this is "pinch of salt" territory, my own theory ..) ... if the blast of the bomb was significant where her head was (since it went off behind the car - and then the lever killed her, etc - and if the bomb was full of pelletts - then why doesn't she have at least a pellet or two in her body.?



Interesting observation and this kind of thinking should be applied to solve the case  Anyway her car was bullet proof ( and somewhat blast proof), if you see some of the pictures it has a shielding around sunroof as well. Plus the blast might not be perfect. I think it was not a simple lever and is there to hold the strange looking( shield around sunroof...). It might also point to the fact that the lever in her car might be a hidden james-bond style pistol and might have killed her... The person who designed that lever should also be involved in the inquiry.... The blast and shooting might be a cover up.. 


> As for who takes over the party now etc , and their level of "corruption" - how do you score Musharraf on corruption? I would agree with Imran Khan when he says he's blatantly corrupt.



Mate plese tell me a simple fact. ZA bhutto's property was divided into 5 heirs ( benazir getting the least amount ), and still she is the richiest person in the family around US $1.2Billion while the rest of her family might not even be worth more than a few million US $. She must have invested into FMG to get that much rich so quickly?? Also note the UN based, oil for food program inquiry into her family business. I will doubt the Pakistan corruption charges but UN inquiry is a separate thing. Most or all the fingers point to her husband ( not her ) to all these corruption charges. And the sad truth is that out of all this mess he is the immediate beneficiary.
I am not saying Musharraf is not corrupt, his lust for power is the main problem. He wants power, he *creates* an illusion of alqeada in pakistan, he gets support(money and political) from Uncle sam. Benazir might have exposed that fact and would have controlled this matter much better as that was on her agenda. Musharraf has now even more ground to create a much bigger illusion of Alqeada ( even if it does not exist he has to say it exists). The worst part is no one exactly know anything about alqeada. It acts like a franchise, with minimum control of centre. It is the best form of organization to blame something, which mush is conviently doing. 

If musharraf goes and a transperant governtment comes in, it might stablize the situation. But if musharraf clings to power a bit longer, it will create more chaos, something alqeda thrieves upon.


PS. I am just pointing out the facts that in Pakistan, every move is politically motivated ( either govt. or bhutto's party) and should be throughly investigated before forming an opinion. Yes govt. seems right now to cover up her death and shift the blame, but bhutto's family has not helped either to ascertain the facts.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 December 2007)

mayk said:


> 1. If musharraf goes and a transperant governtment comes in, it might stablize the situation. But if musharraf clings to power a bit longer, it will create more chaos, something alqeda thrieves upon.
> 
> 2. I am just pointing out the facts that in Pakistan, every move is politically motivated ( either govt. or bhutto's party) and should be throughly investigated before forming an opinion.
> 
> 3.Yes govt. seems right now to cover up her death and shift the blame, but bhutto's family has not helped either to ascertain the facts.



1. agreed 
2. I've seen the video - as ex-military with weapons and explosives experience, I'm convinced
3. why would the family trust the govt?? they have just displaced all the judiciary !! (refer the thread on that topic if you wish) 

even the doctors at the hospital seem to be gagged ( I read)


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## mayk (31 December 2007)

Harsh but true

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22987921-7583,00.html


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## 2020hindsight (31 December 2007)

> 1. In killing Bhutto, the Islamists overreached *(possibly aided by rogue elements in Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, one of the murkiest outfits on earth). *
> 
> 2. Just as al-Qa'ida in Iraq overplayed its hand and alienated that country's Sunni Arabs, ....
> 
> ...




Interesting article mayk.
I've personally never been to Pakistan, and only followed developments  recently.  But I've extracted some lines from the end of that article ...

1. interesting - rogue elements in the govt   Could it be that AQ were't even involved?
2. the latest US theory - so far I've only heard it from the US military - but he could be right
3. sure hope so
4. sure hope so
5. whatever - provided 3 comes to fruition (imo)


----------



## mayk (31 December 2007)

Another intersting article with some good references and comments....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2233261,00.html


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## mayk (31 December 2007)

another article from an expert:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html


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## 2020hindsight (31 December 2007)

mayk said:


> Another intersting article with some good references and comments....
> 
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2233261,00.html





> 'London is like a second home for me,' she once told me. ..........I know all my favourite ice cream parlours. I used to particularly love going to the one at Marble Arch: Baskin Robbins. Sometimes, I used to drive all the way up from Oxford just for an ice cream and then drive back again. That was my idea of sin.'



Turns out she and I have something in common - except that I walk to the local McDonalds (but only when the softserve is on 30c special) 

Gee you have to get well into that article to find some meat ..  but you're right .... she was no Aung San Suu Kyi,  



> For Bhutto was no Aung San Suu Kyi. During her first 20-month premiership, astonishingly, she failed to pass a single piece of major legislation. *Amnesty International accused her government of having one of the world's worst records of custodial deaths, killings and torture*.
> 
> Within her party, she declared herself the lifetime president of the PPP and refused to let her brother Murtaza challenge her. When he persisted in doing so, he ended up shot dead in highly suspicious circumstances outside the family home. Murtaza's wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima, as well as Benazir's mother, *all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.*
> 
> As recently as the autumn, Benazir did and said nothing to stop President Musharraf ordering the US and UK-brokered 'rendition' of her rival, Nawaz Sharif, to Saudi Arabia and so remove from the election her most formidable rival. *Many of her supporters regarded her deal with Musharraf as a betrayal of all her party stood for*.




PS I think the fact remains that her death has left a gaping vacuum in Pakistani politics yes?  power hungry probably, pragmatic to a fault perhaps - still she was probably gonna win the election - she has been been shot, the govt invent a sunroof theory, AQ deny involvement - there are other questions here, yes?


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## 2020hindsight (31 December 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/29/2128778.htm?section=justin

mayk, this article concentrates more on the future  ....



> Global fears for Pakistan after Bhutto killing
> Posted Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:11pm AEDT
> The assassination of Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto has sent shockwaves around the world, with calls for President Pervez Musharraf to stay on the path to democracy.
> 
> ...


----------



## So_Cynical (31 December 2007)

A Pakistani guy at work says the local talk is that it was a 
military/intelligence hit....Pakistani secret service killed her
Musharraf ordered it and blames EQ.


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## mayk (31 December 2007)

Now with new video emerging I highly doubt the government lever theory. But previously it was prematurely to assume otherwise. Still too many finger pointing and looks like the work of AQ. 

I still higly doubt the military intelligence killed bhutto, as she has aready done the deal with musharraf, and was on the way to become prime minister. But I might be wrong but we will never find out.


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## 2020hindsight (1 January 2008)

It sure is confusing mayk
take this jpeg from ABC - the note under the photo and the main text contradict each other. 

But they say "billions" have been wiped off the pakistani stock exchange.  

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/01/2129934.htm


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## arminius (1 January 2008)

i havent read too many other posts so i apologise if its been said.

i guy shoots her in the head. immediately someone else standing right next to him blows up. 
the bomber knew where the shooter was. did the shooter know he was gonna get bombed? 
the car was bulletproof/bombproof. all knew this. the bomber was there to kill the shooter. 
if the shooter wanted to die, he could have turned the gun on himself. 
i dont think the shooter knew of the bomber. why go to the effort? 
to ensure the shooter doesnt survive and talk. 

put me down for a paki govt operation.


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## treefrog (1 January 2008)

mayk said:


> Harsh but true
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22987921-7583,00.html




top post mayk


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## numbercruncher (1 January 2008)

Obviously the Pakistan government wants to convince the masses that she wasnt assassinated so as to stop or limit the massive economic (and political) damage.

They say many 100s of millions damage already from rioting, destroying public proerty, and x amount more on the stock exchange etc etc.


The link posted above is a good read ...



> FOR the next several days you're going to read and hear a great deal of pious nonsense in the wake of the assassination of Pakistan's former prime minister Benazir Bhutto.
> 
> Her country is better off without her. She may serve Pakistan better after her death than she did in life.




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22987921-7583,00.html


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## numbercruncher (2 January 2008)

Her 19 year old son Bilawal Bhutto has been named as leader of the PPP.

19 year old kids running Mcdonalds outlets is scary enough, but running a Nuclear armed country, whoa.

a snip from an article about him ......



> Other details are revealed by online friends: the Guardian daily printed a picture of him in fancy dress as the devil at a Halloween Party with red horns and a trident.
> 
> "We're ready to bring hell on earth ... mwaaahahahahahah," he reportedly added in a comment appended to the photo, posted by a friend.




http://au.news.yahoo.com/080102/19/15et4.html


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## 2020hindsight (2 January 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Her 19 year old son Bilawal Bhutto has been named as leader of the PPP.
> 
> 19 year old kids running Mcdonalds ...
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/080102/19/15et4.html



Oxford undergraduate ... mmm could be worse - could have been Cambridge like Bob Hawke  (studied at Cambridge and UWA - maybe the latter was the "hotbed of reds" lol ?  

19 year old - and a dynasty appointment  - ridiculous sheesh .
Musharraf is in for 10 more years I guess. 



> Online support grows for 'hot' Bhutto son
> LONDON (AFP) - Bilawal Bhutto, thrust into the political spotlight by the assassination of his mother in Pakistan, can count on support from at least one source -- female Facebook fans who describe him as "hot".
> 
> "Oh My God he's cute," said one contributor to "Let's not assassinate Bilawal Bhutto because he's hot, ok?," a new group on the social networking site after the 19-year-old was named last week to succeed his mother as leader of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP).
> ...



But sounds like Bilawal has a sense of humour at least .. 
and lol votes "top filmmaker = Michael Moore"  


> "What's Islamic extremism? It's strict adherence to a particular interpretation of seventh century Islamic law as practiced by the prophet Mohammed, and when I say 'strict adherence', I'm not kidding around.
> 
> "Men are forced to pray, wear their beards a certain length. *Among my favorites is there's only one acceptable cheer at a football match: Allah-hu-Akbar. God is great.
> 
> ...




Reminds me you're not allowed to call "mine, mine" on an Aussie soccer field yes? - whatta lotta ..


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## mayk (2 January 2008)

Firstly, I will like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aitzaz_Ahsan to lead the party.

Secondly, I thought that ZA Bhutto true family heir fatima Bhutto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_Bhutto should have been the chairperson of PPP. I highly regard her views and is considered an intellectual and intelligent ( even more than benazir) person by many. 

The best part of her personality is her contribution to Earth quake victims and some of the best columns she has written in some respected newspapers. 

She is educated not in Oxford but some humble uni in canada. She is photogenic and beautiful too.....


Bhutto's party is doomed under Asif Zardari, that is for sure.


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## Garpal Gumnut (2 January 2008)

I recently read the Autobiography of Pervez Musharraf.

Its called " In the Line of Fire " published by Simon and Schuster.

It paints a picture of the "democratic" parties in Pakistan as a bunch of self-serving, corrupt ,incompetent, feudal and inbred kleptocrats.

If only some of it is true I'd prefer to see Pakistan remain in Gen. Musharraf's control. 

The election of one of the present parties would lead to even more unrest in a country which the West needs as an ally.

Pakistan has al Qaeda in its Northern provinces, actively pursues them and is dedicated to their elimination. 

Having criminals and juveniles running a country which possesses the Atom Bomb, a crumbling economy and a sworn enemy, in India at its southern border. would be a recipe for disaster.  

gg


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## mayk (2 January 2008)

So GG, you think that double standards of west should continue to exist in countiries like Pakistan ?Damn democracy and damn with the wishes of people in those countries? 

Dictatorship is a recipe for disaster anywhere in the world. What is worst than dictatorship is unavailability of Justice to people and absence of rule of law, both mercilessly crunched by Musharraf.

Musharraf is no saint and all the media created drama of the rise of alqaeda is there, just to twist the thinking of people, who have no idea of what is going on. You can claim any person to belong to alqaeda but to prove this you need independent courts and rule of law, which is absent and infact destroyed by Musharraf.

Please tell me anohter fact recently reported that only two suicide attacks have been throughly investigated and bought to justice, Venture to guess which one were those? Yes you are right both of which targetted 
Musharraf. So out of hundreds of attach only two investigated. This is justice in Pakistan for you, different for rich and poor. 

Will West support musharraf if there was no alqeada ? Who is the beneficiary of this drama? Where is the money going, is it reaching the poor people to improve their education ? 

I don't think politicians are saint, but they can be held responsible not like musharraf, who is above law and writes new laws and promagulate them as he wises.


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 January 2008)

mayk said:


> So GG, you think that double standards of west should continue to exist in countiries like Pakistan ?Damn democracy and damn with the wishes of people in those countries?
> 
> Dictatorship is a recipe for disaster anywhere in the world. What is worst than dictatorship is unavailability of Justice to people and absence of rule of law, both mercilessly crunched by Musharraf.
> 
> ...




mayk.,

It is impossible to apply western democratic standards to Pakistan.

Musharraf's recent autobiography though is worthwhile reading. 

The average person in Pakistan has no access to democratic process with or without the army in control. The ruling class controls democratic process through feudal births, marriages and deaths as with B.Bhutto.

The judiciary is the judiciary. Some stability, no power ,and again drawn from the ruling class.

I cannot see why Mushaarraf is demonised more than Bhutto etc.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (3 January 2008)

comment from the peanut gallery - Bhutto was (allegedly) gonna take the fight to the Taliban (northern provinces) - and (as chops pointed out) Musharraf has done a deal with em instead 

your book go down that road gg ?

PS some worrying press releases
http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/07/13/stories/041355rr.htm



> GENERAL Pervez Musharraf is a typical army man. Diplomatic niceties are not his forte. Down to earth idiom is his. Consider this advice to Russia, a nation he has been trying to cultivate: ``Recognise Taliban and buy peace''. It is very blunt and to the point. ``The only way to influence how the Taliban act is by recognising the regime,'' he told Izvestia, the Russian daily, in a recent interview. His argument is simple: ``*No one but the Taliban are capable of guaranteeing peace in Afghanistan today*. Wh ether anyone likes or not the Taliban are a reality.''




"No one but the Taliban are capable of guaranteeing peace in Afghanistan today?" ??
we might as well give it to them ??


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> comment from the peanut gallery - Bhutto was (allegedly) gonna take the fight to the Taliban (northern provinces) - and (as chops pointed out) Musharraf has done a deal with em instead
> 
> your book go down that road gg ?
> 
> ...




2020

Its not my book, its Musharraf's. 

He would argue that he needs to keep his alliances with the Northern alliance who are tribal cross border cousins of many Afghans. He doesn't speak kindly of the Taleban in his book. He considers Mullah Omar a complete nutter and abhorrhed the demolition of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. 

It was published early 2006 so I can't answer for his up to date opinion on the Taleban, long may they rot.

Its always worthwhile looking at someone elses viewpoint otherwise its all too easy to be led by popular opinion such as the Sydney Daily Telegraph or The Guardian in the UK.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (3 January 2008)

thanks gg
this is not a bad website also ..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-lauria/who-benefits-from-bhutto_b_78584.html



> The inevitable question after any assassination is: *who benefited *from it? *The answer in this case is Musharraf and the extremists*. Bhutto was the enemy of both. Could they have worked together to eliminate her?
> 
> With her murder Musharraf has had his chief rival removed and *he can resume his authoritarian rule with the Americans off his back:* Washington has nowhere else to turn. He is the man. He has secured power--for the time being anyway. *Musharraf has played America brilliantly*. *His intelligence service helped create and still has ties to al-Qaeda and the Taliban. *Indeed, *Bhutto accused him of harboring extremists for just such an attack. *Their claim of responsibility gives Musharraf deniability, since he is supposed to be fighting them.
> 
> ...




Winston Churchill :-  


> “*Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.*”


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## mayk (3 January 2008)

> PS some worrying press releases
> http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessli...s/041355rr.htm




It is before the General's reversal of taliban! *9-July-2001 *and may I say before 9/11. Remember Taliban was creation of pakistan so why would Mush not support them then? Plus your reference is from an indian newspaper a sworn rivial of Pakistan, a more neutral source might be more appropriate.

Taliban and Alqeada are different entities. taleban are local afghan people while Alqeada are foreign fighters the real cause of trouble. Generally Taleban do not like Alqaeda ( because they led to their downfall...), having said that some alqaeda sympathesizer do exist in the taliban rank. A good political stragtegy will be to make peace with Taliban on the condition that they will 'smoke out' the alqaeda from afghanistan. It is what Musharraf supports and some NATO and EU are considering ( a couple of weeks ago, Karzi's govt threw out some European Union staff on suspicions of holding talk with the talibans?)

Taliban are now a political victim as government is controlled by Northern Alliance ( Non-pushton ) people. Taliban fought them before 9/11 and were sucessful in beating them. If west can just open their eyes a bit better and use politics and talks rather than brute force(US strategy...)  I think we might see more peace around the world.


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> thanks gg
> this is not a bad website also ..
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-lauria/who-benefits-from-bhutto_b_78584.html
> ...





Thanks 2020.

A good webpage

I guess anyone in Pakistan, Afghanistan , Kashmir or India could have killed her.

That evil husband of hers could have done it.

The selfish gene might have surfaced. He only has half a Bhutto to compete with now, and the other half is his, possibly.

Conspiracy theories abound.

None more credible than the next.

Read Musharraf's book. Its a good read.

I'm sure you can borrow it from your local library, if you'r concerned about your trading profits going to Pervez M.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (3 January 2008)

Benazir Interview 2Nov07 

(including claim that Bin Laden Murdered ??) 



> Aired on 2nd November 2007,David Frost the presenter did not challenge her on her assertion (2:14) that Bin Laden was murdered, so maybe he was and the West has not announced it. It would make sense that the West would cover up such a truth, as Bin Laden is needed as a "bogeyman" to continue the farcical "War on Terror"




Ironically she asks for Scotland Yard's help to investigate past crimes - now they are to go in to help find her killer 


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article643800.ece


> Speaking exclusively to The Sun, Asif Ali Zardari said: “We are still in mourning but it is right the elections are going ahead.”
> 
> He spoke out as President Pervez Musharraf announced that *Scotland Yard detectives are to investigate the murder*.
> 
> ...






			
				gg said:
			
		

> I'm sure you can borrow it from your local library, if you'r concerned about your trading profits going to Pervez M.



 lol  - good idea - watch the five cent pieces and the ten cent pieces look after themselves


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## mayk (3 January 2008)

> including claim that Bin Laden Murdered




I hope it is a slip of tongue, she meant to say Daniel pearl. But it might be true that Bin laden is dead and theis news is kept away from public, so that they might not demand a return of their forces from afghanistan...just like Iraq after saddam's capture.


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## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/08/2134140.htm?section=justin


> Bhutto's husband attacks Musharraf death 'insult'
> Posted 4 hours 45 minutes ago
> 
> Benazir Bhutto's husband has attacked Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for saying the opposition leader was to blame for her own assassination by poking her head out of her car sunroof.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (13 January 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/13/2137321.htm?section=justin



> Musharraf calls for Bhutto's exhumation
> Posted 8 hours 26 minutes ago
> 
> Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf called for the body of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto to be exhumed as he rejected charges that the Government was complicit in her assassination.
> ...


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## mayk (13 January 2008)

on the leadership issue, an article by Imran khan's ex-wife,


> If a Bhutto must run Pakistan, why not Fatima?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/01/06/do0602.xml

And the reaction of her niece on the appointment..


> Bhutto niece raps Bilawal choice




http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jj-90-SzD3Yy4MpplUCXYeA4ZVEg


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## 2020hindsight (20 January 2008)

just for the record...  Musharraf allegedly being tough with "islamic militants" 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/19/2142100.htm?section=justin


> Ninety militants killed in Bhutto suspect hunt
> Posted 7 hours 35 minutes ago
> Pakistani soldiers have killed up to 90 Islamist militants near the Afghan border, after the CIA chief linked the leader of the extremists in the region to the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto.
> 
> ...


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> just for the record...  Musharraf allegedly being tough with "islamic militants"




There is a particularly good article on Pakistan democracy and feudalism in this weekend's AFR.

It paints a picture of Pakistan as being a patriarchal society for the past millenium, essential for its governance. As usual the poor and disenfranchised miss out.

Basically what it says is that patriarchy can subvert democracy as easily as it can swap dictators. This it does by the practice of large land holding families having a bet each way.

They put different members of the family in government, army, opposition and legal system, to ensure the continuity of their genetic hold over the wealth of the country. Thus no matter who wins or is in power, a member of the family keeps the clan safe from retribution.

Tout le change, toute la meme chose.

gg


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## mayk (8 February 2008)

British police say blast killed Pakistan's Bhutto
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSISL20840120080208



> British police investigating the murder of Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto concluded she was killed by a head injury caused by the impact of a bomb blast, not by a bullet, they said in a report released on Friday.




Seems to me another consipracy theory laid to rest. On another note her corrupt husband is trying to become prime minister... Scary.


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## 2020hindsight (20 February 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/19/2167201.htm?section=justin
Wow - Bhutto's old party looks like winning (now husband and son)


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## Kimosabi (20 February 2008)

mayk said:


> British police say blast killed Pakistan's Bhutto
> http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSISL20840120080208
> 
> 
> ...




To put it to rest, she was shot in the neck which can be clearly seen in this video ==> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2a_1199047237

Now a days the conspiracy theory seems to be the governments official story.


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## 2020hindsight (20 February 2008)

Kimosabi said:


> To put it to rest, she was shot in the neck which can be clearly seen in this video



no argument from me kim 

Do I understand that Musharraf is sounding remarkably cocky for someone who has just been trounced at the polls (?)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/20/2168075.htm

PS Think I heard that the opposition parties have learned to "fight fire with fire" - arguably vigourous election rigging all over the place - no longer the sole domain of one party lol.


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## wayneL (20 February 2008)

Kimosabi said:


> To put it to rest, she was shot in the neck which can be clearly seen in this video ==> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2a_1199047237
> 
> Now a days the conspiracy theory seems to be the governments official story.



I don't understand the motive for covering up the actual modality of her death.

Why?


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