# Underground fireproof bunkers



## awg (10 February 2009)

With what has happened in Vic, this thread might be relevant.

I personally own a remote rural block, surrounded by State forest.

I only have minimal structures at present, partially due to bushfire risk!

Does anyone have any knowledge or opinions about underground fireproof bunkers?

My idea would be to excavate a pit, waterproof and concrete surround, with a fairly thick earth roof ( at ground level), with a small fireproof trapdoor.

Ventilation would be by above ground steel flue pipe.

I am fairly sure that heat would not be a problem, but air quality may be.

I am almost certain that survive-abilty would be much higher than any other option, if you are trapped from escaping by fire.

When I build a permanent house, it will be rendered concrete block, steel, and gal roof, but I know gal roofs cannot withstand a really serious blaze, 
( as evidenced by the footage from Vic).

I intend to do some research on the topic, so any tips would be good.

I believe many lives could have been saved if they had such an escape.

does anyone know what happened to persons in Dresden etc during firestorms, as they seemed to retreat to underground bunkers during bombing


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## moXJO (10 February 2009)

A lot of people just put a shipping container underground


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## overit (10 February 2009)

The bunker, dug into an earth embankment with 15-centimetre concrete walls and a $1000 fireproof door, saved their lives and that of their son, Raphael, 14 months. “It was like a firestorm, it was like a raging inferno. It’s a cliche, but that is what it was like,” Ms Berry said.

    When flames engulfed their home they wrapped themselves in wet towels and sprinted to the bunker. “We couldn’t shut the door of the bunker, it was that buckled and warped,” Mr Berry said. “The embers were coming through the gap, it was like the fire was coming to get us.”

Nagging Wife Saves Family From Bushfire


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## Happy (10 February 2009)

awg said:


> My idea would be to excavate a pit, waterproof and concrete surround, with a fairly thick earth roof ( at ground level), with a small fireproof trapdoor.
> 
> Ventilation would be by above ground steel flue pipe.





Just heard discussion of couple of blokes about the subject.

They reckon, to be better protected from radiant heat there would have to be incorporated some kind of L - shaped several metres long corridor, between door and main secure area.
Best if door could have some heat proofing (sealed asbestos is great for that) and more than one set of heatproof doors preferable.

Fireproof Ventilation pipe should have S - bend in it too and fireproof non-return valve.

As to breathing air, few scuba diving bottles would be safer than pure oxygen bottles as sometimes pure oxygen bottle can all of the sudden be consumed by spontaneous combustion.

Also pure oxygen can start fire too even by mini-spark when light is turned on, computer game or similar.

(Apparently if during Oxygen bottle assembly somebody touches thread with bare hand, oils from skin, some time later oxygen can initiate spontaneous combustion, but I am not certain if this info is 100% or just some story)


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## Ashsaege (10 February 2009)

If i lived in an area surrounded by thick forest i would definitely invest in a fire bunker! make it bomb safe too!


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## Ashsaege (10 February 2009)

I reckon fire bunkers will start to become mandatory in certain areas.
Somebody might start up a business and make fire bunker kits. 
They might start making them under water tanks too!


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## ck13488 (10 February 2009)

with something like this you would employ the relevent engineering consultant to check over plans. if im going to stay on my property long enough, knowing my only means of survival is to lock myself in a concrete box *i would want to be 100% sure that it wouldnt turn into an oven!*

also i would build in an internal, self contained sprinkler system that would last for 10-15mins in the event of a fire...then again this may make things worse with humidity or even worse turn to steam! 

if only engineering at uni involved some faint form of creativity id still be there!


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## Whiskers (10 February 2009)

Ashsaege said:


> If i lived in an area surrounded by thick forest i would definitely invest in a fire bunker! make it bomb safe too!




Yeah... but there also needs to be much better planning of these houses in bush/forested areas... maybe even local government/fire authority regulations... eg, it's just redicilous to me to build a timber house snug in timberered areas without some sort of serious fire protection.

Firstly, for me I would NOT build a timber house in those areas like in the above photograph. It would be steel, brick and concrete and even then I would have all trees cleared at least 30m away from house to give any chance of sprinkler system or other fire protection/fighting system a chance to work.

Maybe it's just me being born and bred in the country, but I always have a tank and drum water and firefighter pump available ready, and in my case slash or cultivate a margin around the house especially in the dry season.

Re bunkers... the above picture makes good use of a concrete water tank for a last resort bunker. One little extra that they could have included is a tap into their shelter to have some gravity fed water to keep blankets wet or at least to keep themselves wet and cool. 

Also, I would get full concrete tanks, ie with a concrete roof, preferably with 100mm walls cast on site. That alone would provide a safe emergency shelter... that is, jump into the water in the tank and leave the concrete lid (usually square) placed diagonally across the opening to let in some air but still keep out any large objects from falling into the tank.

Just a couple of ideas that cost little but could mean the difference between survival or not of a fire storm.

Also, I wonder how many home and car owners have fire extinguishers in their home and vehicle. All too often a small fire from flying synders could be put out easily with a bit of preplanning and suitably prepared equipment.

But as I said, maybe it's just me, but I treasure what I have collected and always think about security including fire, tend to err on the side of caution and would rather spend some money on prevention than feel blindly assured that "I've got insurance".


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## SevenFX (10 February 2009)

Can't remember where I heard it but I beleive some farmers were smart enough it take shelter in the middle of their dam saving their lives, which may have ended up into a spa given they would have be surrounded by wall of flames.

Cargo containers seem a good idea provided setup properly.

SevenFX


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## Glen48 (10 February 2009)

One bloke said he was in a Dam the water was cold below but he had to keep ducking his head under due to the heat, don't jump in to an above ground tank as they can boil in a F/storm.
Maybe look at USA and their bomb shelters.
Maybe some sign to let searchers know you could be in there, I would build away from the House and don't eat Bake beans if there is a hint of a fire.


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## Glen48 (10 February 2009)

Even a shipping container covered with dirt above ground with a brick wall leading into it???


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## wabbit (10 February 2009)

Ashsaege said:


> I reckon fire bunkers will start to become mandatory in certain areas.



Making things mandatory does necessarily make them happen.

I would prefer to see it that all new homes in bushfire prone areas be manufactured from fire resistant materials (like the house near Bendigo(?) that survived the blaze when all the houses around it perished) (and be eco-friendly, but that is another soap-box for me to stand on later!) and each property shall have a fire break system around the boundaries (and where necessary inside the property boundaries on larger properties) and there shall be a mandatory clearing around the residence.  In addition, each property shall be required to provide and maintain a water supply and pumping system for firefighting on their own property.  There might be a lot of others measures that could save lives and property too, from fires in fire prone areas, and from floods in flood prone areas, and storms in storm prone areas, and cyclones in cyclone prone areas etc.  People have been talking for years about climate change and its effects on the weather etc, but no-one seems to be doing much to combat the effects?  All the talk is about the causes.  Last-resort shelters and other systems might also be considered, but I believe a lot of preventative measures should be in place first.  As the saying goes, "An ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure."

These measures may seem draconian, but there are some councils in Australia where similar measures are already in place.  Where my father used to live (near Northam, WA) very similar measures were required.  But here is the key:

Whatever mandatory requirements are introduced (or maybe already exist?) they must be enforced.  The requirements were my dad used to live were policed by the local council and volunteer firefighting brigade who reported back to the council.  "Audits" or surveys were conducted quite regularly, I remember two visits from the council in just a couple of months.  Failure to meet the requirements was a serious issue; large fines were (allegedly) regularly issued until full compliance was achieved.

I remember before a particularly hot summer in Perth some years ago, the head of the fire authorities in WA flew in a helicopter over the houses in the Perth hills and was exceptionally saddened/angry at what he saw: despite the warnings from the councils, fire authorities and the weather bureau about an impending bad fire-season and looming hot summer, many houses still had trees overgrowing their roofs, scrub up to the door step, no water on property and no means of pumping water without relying on mains power.  Call it Murphy's Law, but just a few weeks later a fire raced through the area and many of the houses we had just seen mentioned were razed.

So how do we force people to do the right thing?  (Why is necessary to need to force people to do the right thing anyway?  To answer my own question, because "common sense" is unfortunately not that common, hence the need for laws outlawing the lighting of fires on hot, dry, windy days.)  Making laws without enforcing them is pointless.  Maybe the insurance companies should be the ones flying over the houses and making the surveys; people who don't comply have their fire-insurance voided until they meet attain full compliance?  Is this the best answer?  Don't know (probably not) but something has to get people to be responsible for their own lives and properties.

My heart goes out mostly to one man who was a CFA firefighter.  He had done all the right things on his own property before the fire season started (clearings and water etc) but was out fighting the fires at another property (surrounded by trees and grass, on the wrong side of the slope on the hill, etc) when his own house burned to the ground.   (I am sure there were more instances like this, but this was one report I actually watched on the news).  Had so many resources not been required to protect the residence of someone too apathetic/lazy/stupid/whatever to do the work required to make his residence defendable against a brush fire, the firefighter(s) might have been able to be at their own places, defending them against the same blaze.

I am not sure a Royal Commission is going to resolve the issues either.  I don't believe a Royal Commission is going to save lives should another bushfire start somewhere in Australia.  All I think the Royal Commission is going to achieve is to listen to a lot of heart-breaking stories about how houses burned down and people died, and how under-resourced the firefighters are.  I don't think there will be any useful outcomes to make self-protective measures mandatory and enforceable; it is an unfortunate part of our society today that so many people think all our ills and misfortunes are someone elses fault and someone else should always be responsible for the actions of others.

Too harsh?  Maybe.  But I hate seeing what should be taken as "a wake up call" be overtaken by knee-jerk reactions that have little long term benefit, or effects that are not remembered long after the emotion dies away.  We all remember the ANZACS on ANZAC Day, but how many remember them the next day/week/month until the next ANZAC Day?  The Victorian bushfires, however horrific, should be the impetus for some positive changes with long term benefits.  Maybe some real changes can save some lives the next time some idiot starts lighting fires. (That's another soapbox for later, too).


$0.02

wabbit


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## explod (10 February 2009)

One small group sheltered and survived by huddling in the entry to a wambat burrow.

I grew up on a farm and was involved with fire prevention from an early age.  As a country cop also a lot of experience (stony rises etc).

The main fire fronts move through quickly so an air vent is not required.  Air within a reasonable sized bunker would be adequate for 10 of 15 minutes.  Perhaps some form of periscope (retractible) could be handy and some bottles of water.

Out of this I think the government may come up with a standard for bunkers and increased education on individual fire planning.   Housing materials and flammable material around homes is a further target.


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## knocker (10 February 2009)

How about a home made from shipping containers? Very cheap to make and pretty solid.


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## saiter (10 February 2009)

To everyone mentioning shipping containers: Since these are made from metal, won't they just conduct the heat and make it extremely hot inside, regardless of it being under or above ground?


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## knocker (10 February 2009)

saiter said:


> To everyone mentioning shipping containers: Since these are made from metal, won't they just conduct the heat and make it extremely hot inside, regardless of it being under or above ground?




Yes you are right


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## So_Cynical (10 February 2009)

A small shipping container or even a mid sized Galvanized water tank fully buried
would be all that's necessary to survive a fire storm...u only have to survive the 
10 or 15 minutes of the fire front.

Its the radiant heat that's the killer.

Earth/dirt is a super efficient insulator...in many big forest fires its common to bury 
equipment that u cant move out of the fire line (bulldozers etc), but will need 
operational after the front has moved through.


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## Uncle Festivus (11 February 2009)

An exposed shipping container would cook you alive, they are bad enough just on hot days. If you buried it you then get rusting?

I would be building a rammed earth house structure, with double glazed (small) windows to minimise exposure to radiant heat, gutter leaf proofing, along with the concrete tank and side building built below ground level or into the side of a hill or behind some sort of earthen wall as above, with the besser blocks filled with concrete, and concrete roofs to both tank & bunker also. I'm in the local RFS so from experience it's all about the radiant heat in the first instance, then it's maintaining the fire rating untill the fire front passes, usually 20 mins or so??

Not only would you have a house with good fire resistance but an excellent energy efficient house too. Perhaps this is what the law will now require?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (11 February 2009)

The only way is to head underwater or underground. 

How about doing away with green policy and maintain backburning yearly, clearing around houses and understanding that humans occupy the land not rare tree hugging frogs with purple legs.

The aboriginees used to do back burning for the vegetation and soil. 

http://www.2gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5631&Itemid=134


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## Whiskers (11 February 2009)

Uncle, since you're in the RFS you might know what fire retardants are available to the public... eg something to add to water.

I use an agricultural wetter and spreader to get better effect from water sprayed on vegetation (mainly grass and undergrowth) immediatly ahead of a fire but have never enquired if there is anything else that we can use.

I suspect that many people wouldn't know a few little tricks to make a little bit of water go a long way to sufficate fires better.


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## GumbyLearner (11 February 2009)

I agree with Uncle. You would cook in a shipping container. I worked at QRX for years loading shipping containers for export. In summer all the blokes would lose a ton of weight in body salts from just a day of labour.

I partially agree with Snake. I think Aboriginal people have traditionally managed the land and have for millenia known about the harshness of bush fire in Australia.

As for fire-proof bunkers I really can't give any in-depth knowledge like that posted by Uncle.

But I do know that if a fire-proof bunker was to be constructed on a property, it wouldn't be advisable for anyone to use the old-growth timbers situated next to the water-catchments of Victoria such as the Thompson, Cardinia, Yan Yean or Sylvan dams (All very proximate to where this tragedy has occured) as building materials. I'm sure they would be just as flammable as any other material in a wildfire. 

I'm sure if more of an effort was made by the Vic Govt for the last couple of decades, to leave the trees lying next to the catchments in the ground. After all those catchments do need there drop or two of precipitation to maintain life. Then probably Victoria's dwindling water resources, drought and resultant water restrictions would not have resulted in the terrible destruction of the beautiful landscape of Victoria we have seen over the previous week.

The drought is a reality and the worst thing that has been done in Victoria 
is to log next to the catchments. I'm no scientist by do remember simple stuff from high school. There is no point to precipitate an event by messing with the precipitation cycle. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation_(meteorology)

Just my


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## Uncle Festivus (11 February 2009)

Whiskers said:


> Uncle, since you're in the RFS you might know what fire retardants are available to the public... eg something to add to water.
> 
> I use an agricultural wetter and spreader to get better effect from water sprayed on vegetation (mainly grass and undergrowth) immediatly ahead of a fire but have never enquired if there is anything else that we can use.
> 
> I suspect that many people wouldn't know a few little tricks to make a little bit of water go a long way to sufficate fires better.




We sometimes use foam additive in 20l drums, but not sure if it's available or cost effective for personal use as you would go through 20l in a few minutes, but it's good stuff. If you do find some make sure it's not AFFF type as it's a bit toxic  3M usually make it.


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## acouch (11 February 2009)

some amazing photos of the victorian bush fires
ac

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/02/bushfires_in_victoria_australi.html


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## SevenFX (11 February 2009)

As someone mentioned placing the shipping containers away from any falling items and IMO one step further would be to bury the container underground with 2 access doors & air inlets to avoid the extreme heat which may only last few hours till firewall passes..???

Gonna need a big shovel or a dozer, but Lifesaver I'm sure.

SevenFX


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## awg (11 February 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> An exposed shipping container would cook you alive, they are bad enough just on hot days. If you buried it you then get rusting?
> 
> I would be building a rammed earth house structure, with double glazed (small) windows to minimise exposure to radiant heat, gutter leaf proofing, along with the concrete tank and side building built below ground level or into the side of a hill or behind some sort of earthen wall as above, with the besser blocks filled with concrete, and concrete roofs to both tank & bunker also. I'm in the local RFS so from experience it's all about the radiant heat in the first instance, then it's maintaining the fire rating untill the fire front passes, usually 20 mins or so??
> 
> Not only would you have a house with good fire resistance but an excellent energy efficient house too. Perhaps this is what the law will now require?




 After I posted this thread for my research, I googled and found another forum, with some details..I should have done that first

I have previously read a bit in Earth Garden and Owner Builder mags on the topic

Basically, the best solutions were along the line of above by Uncle, BUT that COSTS.

ranging down to (cheapest)...dig a muddy ole trench, and use wet woollen blankets. (will save life) 

seems intense radiant heat is the usually the main problem, so one must be able to be protected from that for about 15 mins, either below earth or in building that WONT CATCH fire for 30+ mins.

the consensus  seems to be that the air is breathable, with some precautions.

Seems preparation and drill are essential, in fireprone areas.

As they are having a Royal Commission, I expect there will be many recommendations along these lines


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## seasprite (11 February 2009)

although expensive , I would be inclined to have a bunker similar to the one that "overit" posted , however it would be out in the open at a radius far enough from the highest tree and the pathway to and from it clear of overhead electrical wires.
 Construction would be fully concrete with a bunker inside a bunker , so there is an air gap to prevent heat conduction between walls and roof.

 Doors would be offset to each other and have the ability to jettison them from the inside.

 contents would include snippets of the above postings as well as a tramping bag with spare clothes/shoes for each member of the family. Torch , first aid kit , heavy duty gloves (fireproof) ,tool kit , water, food  and axe .

As mentioned before, I know Liquid oxygen (LOX) is highly combustible in contact with petroleum products (hydrocarbons) ie grease/oil . Filter type respirators or wet towel may help breathing inside the bunker , unsure about scuba gear.


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## So_Cynical (11 February 2009)

I worked as a professional fire fighter with State forests of NSW for 7 years, been to dozens 
of fires...i would chose a buryed shipping container over staying in a mud brick house any day.

Was thinking today that a very high percentage of the victims would of died due to poor 
decision making, so education to enable some of them to make better decisions maybe 
should be compulsory for people living in high danger areas...i remember the 2 day intensive 
course we all did was very very good, and certainly gave me the confidence to go to any fire 
situation as a very aware, confident and safe fire fighter.

Interesting how in this latest disaster no fire crews were lost at all...first time i remember a 
super big fire where no fire fighters were lost or even hurt, i think that the intensive training 
has alot to do with that.


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## Smurf1976 (11 February 2009)

I recall hearing what I believe to be a true story about someone boiling to death when they took shelter in a water tank during the Tasmanian fire disaster of 1967.

So I'd be careful that if you're building something above ground, it needs to have a huge amount of thermal mass and/or insulation to prevent it heating up. If it's 40 - 45 degrees to start with, the fire won't need to add too much heat into your shelter to kill you.

With 60 or so lives lost and entire towns obliterated, what happened in Tas 42 years (to the day) earlier was an event broadly similar to the Victorian fires just on a smaller scale. Likewise the Ash Wednesday fires in 1983 in Vic / SA were also a massive disaster. There's a lesson there - odds are it's going to happen again sometime so it makes sense to prepare.


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## noirua (11 February 2009)

How much does a fireproof bunker cost?  How many would be needed?  If 500,000 were needed, how long would it take to make and install them?  Who would pay for them?


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## Uncle Festivus (12 February 2009)

noirua said:


> How much does a fireproof bunker cost?  How many would be needed?  If 500,000 were needed, how long would it take to make and install them?  Who would pay for them?




The concrete tank mobs have the knowhow already, just need to bury it? It doesn't have to very big either, big enough to last the 20 minutes for the main front to pass over - 5 sq m - like they use on NSW railway for comms huts? Never use pure oxygen, probably use SCBA - 1 cyclinder would last 20 min but expensive.


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## Happy (12 February 2009)

I saw on TV report that material used in napkins and tampons is great fireproofing medium.

It was made into foam-gel, applied externally to building as single use protection, but looked impressive.
Lasted long enough for fire to go past.

Cannot find link now, maybe somebody seen it and has link?


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## awg (12 February 2009)

Something I should have added in the initial post.

In rural areas there is a problem of theft of property for various reasons, including absentee owners.

So making the fireproof bunker double as a security shed for things you dont want pinched, makes economic sense, as well as risk reduction.

So heavy concrete walls, roof even, and heavy steel doors, will stop casual theft ( although nothing stops oxy, as a certain person I know says).

I think the pic of the unit (earlier in the thread), right up against the concrete water tank, seems a good simple design, to save your life.


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## tubbyt111 (13 February 2009)

hi the cost of a fire bunker is not inportent.just put the best one in if its going to save your life.as for the shipping containers they will rust over time.
I can put fire bunker in the ground that will not rust not leak .with a fire brick
and fire door entry .has anyone thought of a vent that comes up from the bunker and vents though a bed of small rocks .Dont think this will not happen again it will.that is why im going to put everythink into makeing fire bunkers .
The one and only part i need is how to vent or keep air in the bunker for at least 40 min I think under ground is the way to go. what price do you put on
your wife your kids and yourself just look at the papers dont try to save money If anyone can give me ideas on this vent would be great


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## seasprite (13 February 2009)

tubbyt111 said:


> If anyone can give me ideas on this vent would be great




that's a tricky one , it is beneficial that you maintain some sort of positive air pressure so that there is a differential inside your bunker to prevent ingress of smoke. If you were to install a vent , I would suggest that you install some sort of valve/tap on it so that you can close the vent should it start causing a negative pressure in the bunker and suck smoke past your door. As uncle festi said self contained breathing aparatus (SCBA)/ respirator would be my personal choice.


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## overit (13 February 2009)

tubbyt111 said:


> has anyone thought of a vent that comes up from the bunker




No expert here but could you not use some kind of smoke filter over your vent and also have some kind of mask. If you have cleared a suitable area around your bunker exposure should be kept to a minimum one would think. 

Also some kind of battery powered extractor fan might be worth looking into to keep the air circulating.

Just some ideas. Make of them what you will.


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## Happy (13 February 2009)

Scuba bottles seem to be safer than pure oxygen bottles to increase oxygen content of air mixture in the bunker.
All you have to do is slightly crack the valve to keep positive pressure in bunker.
Some prior tests can be done to make sure that cracked open bottles last at least an hour.

As added bonus decompressing air would also give some cooling effect, even ice will form on the outlet.

As we breathe in air mixture, there is about 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen, under 1% Argon plus 0.03% CO2, used to be 0.02%, but must have gone up with increased CO2 emissions.

Not 100% sure on my figures, but problem is that our lungs will not pick up oxygen from air if relative oxygen content drops below 16%, absolute minimum 15%, so there is not that much human life supporting useable oxygen in air mixture to start with.

I would imagine some sort of CO2 absorber would be beneficial too.
Removing CO2 from air mixture will also lift up relative % of oxygen content.

Possibly moisture absorber would be good too, as air we breathe out has 100% humidity.

Adult, not breathing heavily will breathe 1.5 to 3 litres of air about 10 to 12 times per minute. 
Multiply that by number of adults and children can be counted the same, as scared or crying people seem to breathe more often.
(900 to 2200 litres per hour per person times 5 people makes it up to 10 cubic metres of air per hour)

Too small bunker, filled up with valuables will only provide limited supply of breathable air, so better to have bigger capacity as some unexpected guests might join the survival party.
(Almost funny thought, every person not only uses air, but also displaces some air by being there. Put a lot of people in a small space and all of the sudden you need a lot more air just to survive being there)


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## Steen7771 (13 February 2009)

We have been producing Pre-cast underground bunkers for a few months now. It started out as something we did for friends and family. We decided for our own houses it was far easier to simply pre-cast it and drop it in a hole. From there we got about to designing all the necessary features. Air supplies aren't really required, there's ample air for several adults to survive several hours. You need good fire and first aid training, a first aid kit, water, clothes, food etc. Over complicating these things pushes up the cost and families won't be able to do it. You need a good, thick, concrete structure, buried, easy to get in and out of, and large enough to have a bit of air around you. Ours  all have the ability to park on top of - which makes them more attractive in the off-times. Quit the hullabaloo - keep them simple, strong and cheap and keep them affordable for families. avoid expensive re-breathers etc. You aren't going to live in it, it's safe haven for an hour. visit our very amateur website if you want to argue this out or get more info. Fire bunkers will save lives, but not if there's years of debate about how to do it! www.fireshelters.com - I do have an interest in this business but only as far as bringing an inexpensive product to the fore before the big boys do and charge double the price.


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## Steen7771 (13 February 2009)

Further,

If you build your own, DO NOT VENT IT unless you know what you're doing with one way valves etc. As the fire front passes, most if not all, of your air will be sucked out. Then, like lungs, behind the fire your bunker will inhale - a lot of smoke.

IF the fire sits around your bunker for a bit, your air will be sucked out and stay out. You will be in a lot of trouble.

Make them airtight.

Thankyou.


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## nunthewiser (13 February 2009)

Steen7771 said:


> Further,
> 
> If you build your own, DO NOT VENT IT unless you know what you're doing with one way valves etc. As the fire front passes, most if not all, of your air will be sucked out. Then, like lungs, behind the fire your bunker will inhale - a lot of smoke.
> 
> ...





and thankyou actually , i never considered that side of it 

cheers


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## Steen7771 (13 February 2009)

noirua said:


> How much does a fireproof bunker cost?  How many would be needed?  If 500,000 were needed, how long would it take to make and install them?  Who would pay for them?




We can make 2 per day, possible 4 if we trippled our staff. They are normally under $5000 but each site is different and each shelter or bunker has custom features, access, etc. eg - we can cast in roll bars around the entry to prevent fallen branches blocking your escape .

A very large one, for say 8 adults, would be just under $8000.

Steen

Be safe everyone.


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## investorpaul (13 February 2009)

Steen7771 said:


> We can make 2 per day, possible 4 if we trippled our staff. They are normally under $5000 but each site is different and each shelter or bunker has custom features, access, etc. eg - we can cast in roll bars around the entry to prevent fallen branches blocking your escape .
> 
> A very large one, for say 8 adults, would be just under $8000.
> 
> ...




What temperature could they withstand, if underground or if it was 80 degrees outside with fire what would the temp be inside?


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## nunthewiser (13 February 2009)

8k !! . personally think thats cheap


good luck with your venture and may prosperity shine on you


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## Steen7771 (13 February 2009)

investorpaul said:


> What temperature could they withstand, if underground or if it was 80 degrees outside with fire what would the temp be inside?




The doors are insulated, steel clad. they are also small to prevent animals escaping and heat getting through. They will warm up, but the concrete continues to cool the air. we wouldn't sell you one if you were going to install it near a wood pile, so the only lingering flames would be grass. or leaves. 

It'll heat up for sure, but only the door, and only for 20 mins. A good pair of welding gloves are inside to open the door after you're sure the "ball of hell" has passed. 

Underground, with a small entry, and an insulated entry, it won't cook you.

Also, if you build one or buy one, tell someone - CFA, police  - neighbor, kids, parents .

Steen


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## glenn_r (13 February 2009)

A lot of people were saved by going into their coolgardie safes during the fires of 1939 so a old timer told me today, back then with no fridges they dug a hole in the ground lined it and used wet hessian as a door and stored the sides of beef and other perishables, so the bunker is not a new idea.


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## seasprite (13 February 2009)

well I don't think this has been hullabulloo or debate . I think it has been a collection of good constructive ideas and experiences to date. Good luck with your business Steen .


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## Steen7771 (13 February 2009)

seasprite said:


> well I don't think this has been hullabulloo or debate . I think it has been a collection of good constructive ideas and experiences to date. Good luck with your business Steen .




indeed Seasprite, I agree this forum has sound, intelligent contributors. I was forgetting that with my readings on other more "commercial" forums and talk-back.

I hope any advice i offered to bushies will be helpful someday. 

Cheers!


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## psteinb (14 February 2009)

goto http://www.carltonhandyman.com, and click on 'Firepit Australia' - looks interesting.... Seems what people are looking for - a reasonably priced fire bunker?


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## geselle (14 February 2009)

Positive air pressure?
SCUBA tanks too expensive?
Oxy bottles promote spontaneous combustion?

How many of you have an air compressor in the shed?

A small GMC compressor will set you back about $100 at bunnings.

Even simpler, you can purchase larger new cylinders for less than $100 and with enough forewarning (i.e. bushfires may occur tomorrow) you could use your 4wd tyre pump to get enough air into it to keep people supplied with breathable air for the period where the outside air is thick with smoke and/or you need to seal your retreat while the firestorm is sucking up all available oxygen.

I recall an interview with a guy who survived in his purpose built bunker.  The fire found an entrance into his bunker, via the hole drilled for his electrical cabling.  He said (along the lines of) the flame coming out of the hole (into his bunker) was like an oxy torch.

Now that is a sobering thought.

geselle


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## Steen7771 (14 February 2009)

psteinb said:


> goto http://www.carltonhandyman.com, and click on 'Firepit Australia' - looks interesting.... Seems what people are looking for - a reasonably priced fire bunker?




please all beware the re-purposing of plastic water tanks! These tanks are only rated to be underground when they're full of water, so the weight of the earth pushing in equals the weight of the water pushing out. Empty, they can literally rise up out of the ground. 

I don't fancy melting plastic around the manhole dripping onto me either.

The government is sure to implement standards on these - don't do it half cocked. Make sure you have something strong enough to be legal when it becomes required.

Tell me how six people in a plastic tank survive when that gum tree loses a branch over your roof?

This applies equally to septic tanks as well. There are now pictures on www.fireshelters.com


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## Glen48 (14 February 2009)

Before any re-building starts we need find out if insurance is available and how much it will rise in the future.
Remember insurance Co. are there to make money and with N.QLD flooded and now this and how knows whats around the corner the fire victims won't be able to get insurance and no insurance means no money from the Banks.


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## pilots (15 February 2009)

geselle said:


> Positive air pressure?
> SCUBA tanks too expensive?
> Oxy bottles promote spontaneous combustion?
> 
> ...



You say get a compressor, tell me it has to suck air from some place, how do you stop it from sucking in smoke??


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## Happy (15 February 2009)

pilots said:


> You say get a compressor, tell me it has to suck air from some place, how do you stop it from sucking in smoke??




I understood that you compress air into large bottle a day or so before bushfire.

My problem with that is that normal compressor does not provide breathable air, it provides air only for industrial use.
It is contaminated by poisonous oil and greases lubricating ordinary compressor parts, for breathable air you need compressor specially adapted for that purpose.

I know, almost splitting hairs, if there is no good quality air any air has to do, but it might affect health of people exposed to that air.


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## pilots (15 February 2009)

Good point, how ever, bad air is better than no air. I have seen fire shelters in Canada, it was a 2000 gal concrete water tank set in to the side of a hill, the door was made of only wood, but they had a brick wall across the front,this was a heat shield, you had to walk abound the wall to get to the door, the wall also protects the door from falling trees blocking your door.


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## ozmac46 (23 February 2009)

What I find amazing in the discussions on rebuilding in Vic after the fires is NO mention of earth-bermed housing (underground housing to some).  This old hippy idea from the 70's has a lot going for it.  Fireproof on the roof and at least two sides.  And the exposed sides can be secured with industrial shutters (forget the fance toughened glass) that can be electrified with battery back-up (and if you're really insane, water sprays to give a wet curtain).

In addition, you get great thermal properties, full security for long absences and minimal maintenance - just think, no more gutters to clean 2-3 times a year!  There seems to be a mental block about having earth around your home in Australia - people are concerned about dampness.  Well, there are continents and countries full of people who have basements and they're not even damp.

You don't have to be on a sloping block to have the opportunity to go 'underground'.  I visited an earth bermed house on a dead flat block in Nove Scotia in Canada - as you looked at it, there was an exposed front face, earth up the sides and over the roof, and the back was half and half.

Others complain about darkness - well, people live in apratments where windows can only be found on one, at best two sides and they pay millions for the privilege on the Gold Coast.  We re-designed our house to take the same room layouts, but with minor changes so that all rooms had at least one window but the main hallway had none so solar tubes will light it to daylight standards.

There are still some architects from the 70's doing earth-sheltered housing.  See http://www.shelterspace.com/contact.htm for a South Aussie one (and some pictures of earth-sheltered homes in the Adeliade Hills)


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## sam76 (2 March 2009)

What research has CSIRO done on fire bunkers?

What research has CSIRO done on fire bunkers?

CSIRO is not currently conducting research into bushfire bunkers or shelters. Previous research by the Department of Defence indicated that underground bunkers may not be safe in bushfires due to the accumulation of toxic gases coming from a bushfire itself.

Bunkers were recommended and used around the time of the 1939 Black Friday bushfires to provide some shelter to mill workers who had no other protection from bushfires when working in the forests. Current research indicates that a well designed and prepared house can provide adequate protection (see question ‘is a house safe in a bushfire’) during a bushfire. 

The use, design and efficacy of current era bunkers has not been investigated by CSIRO.

As with any form of bushfire refuge, bushfire bunkers must be assessed in an overall context taking into consideration issues such as:

·                            expected bushfire behaviour 

·                            design and construction criteria 

·                            preparation and maintenance 

·                            intended and probable use of the bunker 

·                            establishing a safe path to the bunker.

As well as the technical issues, there are a range of other considerations including:

·                            decision making processes and education around when to retreat to the bunker 

·                            when to close off a bunker

·                            how long to remain in the bunker 

·                            how to determine when it is safe to exit the bunker.

CSIRO has the capability to engage in the underpinning science for future policy and regulation development covering issues like:

·                            circumstances where a bunker may or may not be appropriate

·                            position of the bunker and its proximity to other objects

·                            designing a bunker

·                            maintenance and safety considerations. 

Areas of bushfire research CSIRO has been involved in include:

·                            performance of buildings and materials under fire exposure conditions

·                            integrated town planning and house design for sustainability and bushfire survival

·                            robustness and role played by residential fence systems and water storage tanks in bushfire prone areas

·                            product development, verification and enhancement for use in bushfire-prone areas (specialist coatings, glazing protection, timber deck design)

·                            assessing house vulnerability and bushfire risk at the urban interface

·                            understanding bushfire behaviour and risk

·                            analysis of major bushfire events

·                            fire detection technology

·                            controlled burning programs

·                            enhancing firefighter and community safety

·                            aerial and ground suppression

·                            managing fire in different vegetation types

·                            the effects of bushfire burnovers on passenger vehicles

·                            design and performance of fire vehicle protection systems on bushfire burnovers. 

Find out more about CSIRO's bushfire research.


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## Happy (3 March 2009)

sam76 said:


> ..
> 
> Previous research by the Department of Defence indicated that underground bunkers may not be safe in bushfires due to the accumulation of toxic gases coming from a bushfire itself.
> 
> ..





But no comment on improving air quality by means of filtration or independent oxygen production.


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## SAVE LIVES (5 April 2009)

After the Victorian Bushfires i have researched, specifically designed and Patent a new Flat Pack Fire Bunker. I’m a Structural Enginner with a PHD. Have a look at our site flatpackfirebunkers


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## tlumley/graham (12 May 2009)

10.  Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
      May 11th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

      We are mechanical engineers with a good appreciation of the requirements for surviving a bush fire. We have designed a shelter that is specifically developed to resist the intense radiant heat and have sufficient air volume for each individual (size varies as numbers of individuals specified for shelter). The shelter also includes shielded viewing ports for surveillance in four directions. It is constructed to be partially below ground with enough above ground to judge a safe time to leave. The shelter is designed to be occupied for periods up to at least one hour without significant temperature rise inside from fire. Seating, and provision for water and safety apparel is provided for each occupant. Doors are provided at each end to ensure access for safe entry and exit. The doors cannot be locked so rescue from outside is always possible. Easy stair and ramp options are available. The roof of the shelter is constructured such that it may be used for other purposes thus avoiding loss of yard space.
      Additional designs have been prepared for above ground and come either as skid mounted or suited for crane placement. These units may be suitable for firefighters as retreats.
      A range of optional equipment has been designed including an auxiliary air unit to improve the safety of some of the other types of units being sold.
      We have also designed shutters that will eliminate radiant heat entering windows on houses. These are easily fitted and may be made any size.
      Additional information will be made available as requested by contacting the contacts nominated on the website.
  11. Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
      May 12th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

      Website for the above http://www.wombatsburrow.com.au

What do YOU think?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (12 May 2009)

tlumley/graham said:


> 10.  Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
> May 11th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
> 
> We are mechanical engineers with a good appreciation of the requirements for surviving a bush fire. We have designed a shelter that is specifically developed to resist the intense radiant heat and have sufficient air volume for each individual (size varies as numbers of individuals specified for shelter). The shelter also includes shielded viewing ports for surveillance in four directions. It is constructed to be partially below ground with enough above ground to judge a safe time to leave. The shelter is designed to be occupied for periods up to at least one hour without significant temperature rise inside from fire. Seating, and provision for water and safety apparel is provided for each occupant. Doors are provided at each end to ensure access for safe entry and exit. The doors cannot be locked so rescue from outside is always possible. Easy stair and ramp options are available. The roof of the shelter is constructured such that it may be used for other purposes thus avoiding loss of yard space.
> ...




They look like wombat holes in the photos. Are the little holes for one person only or do the holes link up into one big burrow? I couldn't see any other photos to clearly show what they are.


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## Colin Abbott (31 July 2009)

Many lives have been saved by crawling into concrete culverts.


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## Colin Abbott (31 July 2009)

It is radiated heat that kills most people in a bushfire situation. Concrete has an excellent resistance to radiated heat.


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## jono1887 (31 July 2009)

Colin Abbott said:


> It is radiated heat that kills most people in a bushfire situation. Concrete has an excellent resistance to radiated heat.




why dont you just build your self a concrete box and sit in it during a bush fire then :


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## Colin Abbott (1 August 2009)

I am referring to a fireproof concrete bunker recommended by the House of Representatives Committee which looked into evidence arising from the Ash Wednesday bushfires (1983). In fact, many people survived the Ash Wednesday carnage by crawling into culverts.


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## trainspotter (1 August 2009)

I am with you Colin Abbott. Very easy to construct and should be more of them. Look at America in Tornado alley. "Oh look, a tornado is coming, let's get in the bunker." In my best southern accent.


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## Colin Abbott (1 August 2009)

In relation to the concrete culvert idea: have available some woollen blankets (soaked with water) and place them over your head (breathing through the blanket). This resists the possibility of smoke inhalation.


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## Colin Abbott (1 August 2009)

I take it Jono, that you were endeavouring to bring some humour into the discussion?


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## Colin Abbott (1 August 2009)

Please take a look at the following article. The idea is simple, inexpensive, and requires no council planning permission. http://tiny.cc/DgMO8


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## Mr J (1 August 2009)

Under ground bunker, supplies and weaponry will be handy for when the blast and chaos hits.


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## jono1887 (1 August 2009)

Colin Abbott said:


> I take it Jono, that you were endeavouring to bring some humour into the discussion?




yep


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## Colin Abbott (1 August 2009)

Incidentally, concrete pipe (culvert) fire bunkers work perfectly well in a cyclone. My bunker will eventually be covered by a rockery, and should blend in nicely with the rest of the landscape. Any reasonably fit individual should be able to install such a safety device by him/herself. The total all-up cost, using one pipe (1200mm inside diameter x 2500mm in length) would be approximately $800 - $900. I'd say that's a relatively inexpensive way to save lives. I am currently working on a circular "door" with which to close off the "open" end. I envisage using FYRCHEK, an inexpensive fire-resistant material made by the Gyprock company. I'm hoping the whole set-up will be encircled by a gravelled area about twenty metres in diameter, free of plants, shrubs, trees, etc. One has to be sensible and clear the adjacent area, including the pathway to access the bunker.


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## shotcreter (13 February 2011)

Hi all,

We can build underground bunkers -any size, any depth.
See our webpage. 
www.totalshotcrete.com

Cheers


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## Ceebee77 (18 October 2013)

knocker said:


> Yes you are right




No he is not correct. A container below ground with even 60cm of earth on top will not heat up. The problem is, air quality. You shouldn't rely on just the air in the underground space and any vent to the outside (unless constructed correctly) will only bring in smoke and possible fire also as fire will seek out any air (oxygen) to feed itself.
Cheers.


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## Ceebee77 (18 October 2013)

Colin Abbott said:


> I take it Jono, that you were endeavouring to bring some humour into the discussion?




Methinks Johno was being a bit sarky! Hmmmm Johno?

- - - Updated - - -



Colin Abbott said:


> Please take a look at the following article. The idea is simple, inexpensive, and requires no council planning permission. http://tiny.cc/DgMO8




Your link no longer works. Cheers.


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## Julia (18 October 2013)

This question might be out of place on this thread, if so my apologies.
Does anyone know how safe it would be to get into a swimming pool in the event of a fire?
I have some vague recollection of reading that it was not safe at all.


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## burglar (18 October 2013)

Julia said:


> This question might be out of place on this thread, if so my apologies.
> Does anyone know how safe it would be to get into a swimming pool in the event of a fire?
> I have some vague recollection of reading that it was not safe at all.






> If your plan fails or your situation changes you must act quickly and go to a safer place. You need to identify a number of places you can go to at the last minute. This may be a shed, your home, a swimming pool, a dam or another place. If your safer place of last resort is a swimming pool or dam you must protect yourself with a woollen blanket while the fire front passes.




surviveabushfire.aspx


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## qldfrog (18 October 2013)

Julia said:


> This question might be out of place on this thread, if so my apologies.
> Does anyone know how safe it would be to get into a swimming pool in the event of a fire?
> I have some vague recollection of reading that it was not safe at all.



my understanding is that in an inground pool, it is safe as long as you can duck in and out protected from the radian heat->have cotton or wool on you heat when you pop up to breath.
smoke and O2 can be a problem but depend on location, relief, amount of burning material around
would be the same in a bunker unless you bring in air supply:
the bunker/cellar I plan to build will have an empty gas cylinder  filled with ambiant air under pressure that you can release slowly if need be
in the meantime, the pool with a towel each is the emergency safe place at home.
and the preparation plan includes openning the pool ( metal) gate and locking it in open position...bloody safety....
DYOR


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## burglar (18 October 2013)

qldfrog said:


> ... and the preparation plan includes openning the pool ( metal) gate and locking it in open position...bloody safety....
> DYOR




Would not want to burn hands on the pool ( metal) gate!?
And remember a woollen blanket for the dog too!!


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## Jackass (19 October 2013)

qldfrog said:


> my understanding is that in an inground pool, it is safe as long as you can duck in and out protected from the radian heat->have cotton or wool on you heat when you pop up to breath.
> smoke and O2 can be a problem but depend on location, relief, amount of burning material around
> would be the same in a bunker unless you bring in air supply:
> the bunker/cellar I plan to build will have an empty gas cylinder  filled with ambiant air under pressure that you can release slowly if need be
> ...




Qld frog, Dont mean to burst your bubble / bunker but if you stick you and your family in a confined space with no ventilation your main problem will be carbon dioxide build up NOT oxygen depletion. However there are ways around this.


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## Jackass (19 October 2013)

Actually CO2 build up will become a problem before Oxygen depletion, not saying O2 depletion wont become a problem over a longer period of time.


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## Julia (19 October 2013)

Thanks for replies.  It appears to be a choice between burning and drowning, given the CO2 factor.


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