# Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist/does exist?



## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

I have a problem,

I was brought up in a family that didn't really practice any religious faith, and in general our family has always been agnostic / atheist. However in recent times my older sister has become religious. She now regularly attends a church and has enrolled her young children into a faith school.

My neices are being taught that the bible is true and the heaven and hell are real places.

So I have two main questions,

1, Is it ok, If asked for me to tell my neices that there isn't a god and heaven and hell are not real places and the bible is just stories?

and 2, On a deeper level, Is it really ok that my sister is teaching her kids that this stuff is true?


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## prawn_86 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> 1, Is it ok, If asked for me to tell my neices that *there isn't a god and heaven and hell are not real places and the bible is just stories?*
> and 2, On a deeper level, Is it really ok that my sister is teaching her kids that this stuff is true?




Do you have proof for the part in bold? If so a lot of people would be interested 

I am relatively agnostic too, but depending on the age of the kids i would say that you can just present your opinions and say that everyone has different thoughts on the matter

2. People have been doing it for thousands of years, so can't see why not, in this day and age especially teens will be able to make up their own mind with research


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## Calliope (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> 1, Is it ok, If asked for me to tell my neices that there isn't a god and heaven and hell are not real places and the bible is just stories?




I think you already know the answer. It's none of your business.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



> Do you have proof for the part in bold? If so a lot of people would be interested




No, I have no proof that heaven and hell are not real, just as I have no proof the tooth fairy isn't real. However I don't believe in any of the god claims and would like to provide at least some counter weight to the large amount of mis information they are currently getting.



> I am relatively agnostic too, but depending on the age of the kids i would say that you can just present your opinions and say that everyone has different thoughts on the matter




Thats kind of the question I am asking, is it ok for me to say my opinions? I definatley don't want to be part of the lie.



> People have been doing it for thousands of years, so can't see why not, in this day and age especially teens will be able to make up their own mind with research




It hasn't really turned out well over that time has it ? 

You would think people can make up there own mind, But even I the net there is alot of misinformation from creationists. And people that have been hard core indoctrinated just reject scientific facts, I would rather inject some doubt early on before they become complete religous robots.


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## Trembling Hand (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*

LOL The I-P stocks must be really slow!





Tell what you think. Unfortunately thats all you can do.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Calliope said:


> I think you already know the answer. It's none of your business.




I spend alot of time around the kids and so far have narrowly avoided the question, I can't avoid it forever so it is kind of is my business.

If some one asks you a direct question, It is your business to answer truthfully is it not?


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Trembling Hand said:


> LOL The I-P stocks must be really slow!




Oops, How did it end up there.

I was sure I put this in General topics.


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## prawn_86 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> No, I have no proof that heaven and hell are not real




Some people would probably like that information too. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but there are numerous dimensions outside of what humans can see/comprehend so isn't it at least possible something like that could exist in another dimension?


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## Knobby22 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> I spend alot of time around the kids and so far have narrowly avoided the question, I can't avoid it forever so it is kind of is my business.
> 
> If some one asks you a direct question, It is your business to answer truthfully is it not?




Do your rant if you care so much, then you can be weird Uncle Ron (insert name here). 
I can't see it doing them damage.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



prawn_86 said:


> there are numerous dimensions outside of what humans can see/comprehend so isn't it at least possible something like that could exist in another dimension?




Is it possible that things could exist in other dimensions ? I guess it is, But I don't think the other dimensions are likely to be heaven and hell as we have a religous understanding of them and I don't think it is likely to have a supernatural god decideing which one we go to.

Just because something could possibly exist, does not mean we should teach it to kids as fact.

No one has proof of these dimensions, So we shouldn't teach it as fact and threaten that if they don't believe you they will go to the bad dimension.


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## againsthegrain (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> Is it possible that things could exist in other dimensions ? I guess it is, But I don't think the other dimensions are likely to be heaven and hell as we have a religous understanding of them and I don't think it is likely to have a supernatural god decideing which one we go to.
> 
> Just because something could possibly exist, does not mean we should teach it to kids as fact.
> 
> No one has proof of these dimensions, So we shouldn't teach it as fact and threaten that if they don't believe you they will go to the bad dimension.




Tell them the truth before its too late and they turn into total religious fanatics! .... there is a bubble


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Knobby22 said:


> Do your rant if you care so much, .




Rant? 

I think you misunderstood me.

I was talking out answering direct questions.


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## burglar (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> Is it possible that things could exist in other dimensions ? I guess it is, But I don't think the other dimensions are likely to be heaven and hell as we have a religous understanding of them and I don't think it is likely to have a supernatural god decideing which one we go to.
> 
> Just because something could possibly exist, does not mean we should teach it to kids as fact.
> 
> No one has proof of these dimensions, So we shouldn't teach it as fact and threaten that if they don't believe you they will go to the bad dimension.




Hi TB1,

It doesn't have to be you!

They may figure it out.
They may hear it from the other weird uncle. Haha, just kidding!

George Carlin "I used to be Irish Catholic. Now I’m an American ”” you know, you grow."


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## Joules MM1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



prawn_86 said:


> Some people would probably like that information too.




most people whom come to this neck of the woods are asking the same questions, a deep questions.....is this thread inline with what Joe wanted to see, that is, more chatting about Aussie stocks....... ??

maybe this series of posts could be moved ?


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## Julia (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> Rant?
> 
> I think you misunderstood me.
> 
> I was talking out answering direct questions.



I don't see the question as a rant at all, but rather the genuine concern of an uncle, unhappy at seeing little kids indoctrinated into a belief that they will go to hell if they do bad stuff, and only go to heaven if they believe literally in creationism, the Bible etc.

If it were me, I'd try to continue evading direct comment because it's probably not right for you to directly contradict the parental teachings.
Someone above (sorry, forget who it was now) suggested you should just say that people have all sorts of different views about God, and leave it at that.  I agree.
(Much as I'd want to say "oh, that's all bulls...t".)


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## Joules MM1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> I have a problem,




the reverse is true.....you have a great opportunity.....enquire how they feel about the ideas handed to them......do they see you any differently after taking on these "other" ideas....your job is to merely assist them in building a freedom of thought, not to imprison them with "facts" .......ask them questions that allow them to express how they feel and how the ideas affect them......you can guide them into using ideas that they feel benefit them, make it practical, ask how can they use these ideas day to day ......faith is not about a single person outside of the believer, faith is about taking a course of action and sticking until the goal is achieved, make the questions have a tangible aspect.....make all the questions so that the answers are positive and you know exactly what positive is on a day to day basis.....none of this theoretical mumbo stuff it confuses kids.....they can come back to actuality if they go on a tangent when you ask them to question the practical value of what theyve been told.......teach them to enquire......atheists and ardent religious folks should have the greatest conversations......really


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Julia said:


> If it were me, I'd try to continue evading direct comment because it's probably not right for you to directly contradict the parental teachings.
> Someone above (sorry, forget who it was now) suggested you should just say that people have all sorts of different views about God, and leave it at that.  I agree.
> (Much as I'd want to say "oh, that's all bulls...t".)




Good advice J,

It is a topic that I am torn over though, I do not want to cause any rift in the family, hence why I have avoided it so far. But I really, really hate the idea of openly aggreeing that their religious teaching are correct.

Also I feel that they are missing some of the beautiful wonders of this planet, when at the zoo I would have loved to point out some wonderful adaptions animals have made and introduce ideas such as natural selection, but my hands were tied, the old answer off "thats just the way giraffes were made" had to come out.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Joules MM1 said:


> the reverse is true.....you have a great opportunity.....enquire how they feel about the ideas handed to them......do they see you any differently after taking on these "other" ideas....your job is to merely assist them in building a freedom of thought, not to imprison them with "facts" .......ask them questions that allow them to express how they feel and how the ideas affect them......you can guide them into using ideas that they feel benefit them, make it practical, ask how can they use these ideas day to day ......faith is not about a single person outside of the believer, faith is about taking a course of action and sticking until the goal is achieved, make the questions have a tangible aspect.....make all the questions so that the answers are positive and you know exactly what positive is on a day to day basis.....none of this theoretical mumbo stuff it confuses kids.....they can come back to actuality if they go on a tangent when you ask them to question the practical value of what theyve been told.......teach them to enquire......atheists and ardent religious folks should have the greatest conversations......really




Thanks


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## Gringotts Bank (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> I have a problem,
> 
> I was brought up in a family that didn't really practice any religious faith, and in general our family has always been agnostic / atheist. However in recent times my older sister has become religious. She now regularly attends a church and has enrolled her young children into a faith school.
> 
> ...





1.  What kid would ask his/her uncle that sort of thing?!  They'd be too busy enjoying themselves to even consider such a question.  But I think what you're saying is "is it ok to start a heated debate at the family gathering".  I think it's ok, but not with the kids there.  Subjecting them to anti-religious rants is just as bad as subjecting them to religious rants.  And don't expect to 
enjoy your meal...

If you really want to do the debate properly, you need to understand your topic.  Maybe pick ten books from this list of hundreds [ http://www.adherents.com/adh_influbooks.html ]  and start reading.  Shouldn't take long!  Remember that ancient spiritual texts are full of allegory and metaphor, and that makes them very hard to understand and open to gross misinterpretation.  Luckily there are plenty of clever authors/translators who have done that job.  Even if you wanted just a broad brush understanding of something and you read the "Idiots Guide to Religion X", that would be better than going into the debate knowing nothing at all.

The point is, when you start to investigate you realize how hard it is to even get started.  There's so much 'bathwater' that it's easy to throw the 'baby' out right from the outset.  Keep in mind that most the the world's most brilliant, talented, wise and insightful men have had some sort of religious and/or spiritual leanings.  

It's not just about reading though, because *facts and knowledge don't count for anything in this game*.  All the most useful spiritual literature encourages actual practice, which, if you strip away the cultural overlay, dogma and hoo-haa, boils down to this:  learn how to silence the voice in your head.  Do it any way you like.  Some people have managed this through extreme exercise, some through fasting, drug use, prayer, meditation, dance...  Lots of ways.  If you can, you will be blown away by what happens.

If you want a quick and easy way to understand the theory, try Chopra's 'How to Know God'.  
If you want a quick and dirty taste of what practice feels like, drop a huge dose of acid or DMT. (not recommended because of the high risks)
If you want to go straight to the most brilliant **** on this topic, try Jed McKenna's books or Adyashanti (for the gentler approach), or Richard Rose (for very detailed practical instructions).
If you just want to have a good argument (nothing wrong with that), call your sister and set up a dinner!


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## moXJO (10 October 2012)

Did you discuss with them if Santa exists or not


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Gringotts Bank said:


> 1.  What kid would ask his/her uncle that sort of thing?!  They'd be too busy enjoying themselves to even consider such a question. !




As I have said, to this point I have dodged the question using the old magicians trick of mis direction.

However these and other questions have come up.


Why don't you say grace at your house?
do you ask god to bless us when you pray before bed time?
How come you and nanny and poppy don't come to church?
Is Tyson in heaven?
Will the person who put the bush on fire go to hell?


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## Miss Hale (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> As I have said, to this point I have dodged the question using the old magicians trick of mis direction.
> 
> However these and other questions have come up.
> 
> ...




Maybe you could just tell them to ask their parents these questions.

Or, just answer honestly, saying you don't believe in God.


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## Gringotts Bank (10 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



Tysonboss1 said:


> As I have said, to this point I have dodged the question using the old magicians trick of mis direction.
> 
> However these and other questions have come up.
> 
> ...




oh right...  that makes it awkward.  I guess I'd agree with what Miss Hale is saying.  You can be honest about what you think and still be pleasant (well I can't, but maybe you can).


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

moXJO said:


> Did you discuss with them if Santa exists or not




They were told santa exists, am not sure if they still actually believe in it. That hasn't actually come up in conversation with me yet. But I guess that would create some ackwardness to.

As far as my own opinion goes on the subject, I don't plan to tell my kids santa is real.


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## moXJO (10 October 2012)

Tysonboss1 said:


> They were told santa exists, am not sure if they still actually believe in it. That hasn't actually come up in conversation with me yet. But I guess that would create some ackwardness to.
> 
> As far as my own opinion goes on the subject, I don't plan to tell my kids santa is real.




You are too serious. Subscribe to the method of deflecting with $hits and giggles answers for a while. Rather then destroying the illusion and not letting them work things out for themselves. In the end it would be a hot day if you found out your truth wasn't the truth

Dude Santa is real, rips me off for photos every Christmas at the local shopping center.


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## wayneL (10 October 2012)

This is a real can o' worms TB1.

It could blow up in your face, I'd continue the evasion game FWIW.


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## skc (10 October 2012)

May be you can focus on a different issue. 

Given that there can be no proof on whether God exists, one's belief is purely an opinion. The issue then isn't about who's right or wrong wrt the opinion one holds, it's about how one acts based on those opinions.

If the belief in God turns the children into loving, caring, compassionate people, does it really matter if God isn't real, or that they waste time saying grace before a meal?


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## Gringotts Bank (10 October 2012)

moXJO said:


> In the end it would be a hot day if you found out your truth wasn't the truth




I like it.  

What if all beliefs were untrue... say, even the belief that i am sitting here tapping away at a keyboard?


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## Gringotts Bank (10 October 2012)

skc said:


> May be you can focus on a different issue.
> 
> Given that there can be no proof on whether God exists, one's belief is purely an opinion. The issue then isn't about who's right or wrong wrt the opinion one holds, it's about how one acts based on those opinions.




Belief = restriction.  That's the real time waster.  Doesn't matter if it's belief in God or belief in the non-existence of God.  Both use up energy in the fixation of one's attention.

God can be experienced when the fixation is loosened.  First it is experienced as experience, then as the end of all experience.

And with that, everyone agrees, GB has finally fallen off his perch.

Goodnight.


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## notting (10 October 2012)

If facts are true they never imprison, they liberate.
Truth is truth.
Check out these guys for some reasoned counter argument to the jealous and cruel creator.

http://www.atheistconvention.org.au/

On the other hand having the comfort of a grand poo bar in the sky brings many contentment and a sense of meaning so that should not be arrogantly dismissed as it comforts many and makes many behave better than they otherwise might!

Existence of ones being is likely to continue after death as there are many accounts of people who can vouch for experiences beyond or people who can perceive things beyond what the body alone is capable of perceiving with it's sense faculties.

That doesn't mean there is a God but it can mean that there are better and worse situations to be born into and that what you do to others could well determine your continuums direction!  
Most religions are pretty similar in what they try to teach will lead to better or worse situations for oneself and others. 
Horses for courses.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

> Subscribe to the method of deflecting with $hits and giggles answers for a while



.

yes, for now I will continue avoiding



> Rather then destroying the illusion and not letting them work things out for themselves



. 

Thats the problem though, it is an illusion that can have some nasty side affects and it's hard for them to work it out them selves if they are only ever presented with one way of thinking and taught from the cradle up they will go to hell if they think differently




> In the end it would be a hot day if you found out your truth wasn't the truth




you can say that for any religion eg. whats allah going to say when the christian arrive on the other side etc.etc


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## notting (10 October 2012)

Tysonboss1 said:


> .
> you can say that for any religion eg. whats allah going to say when the christian arrive on the other side etc.etc




"The fools that told you I would not love Christians distorted my message?" etc etc


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## macca (10 October 2012)

I wouldn't be comfortable going against the parents wishes. I would just tell the kids that they need to discuss their question with their parents.

My nieces and nephews were brought by devout parents and they kids are all normal adults. Some of them are religious and some are not.

I never said anything because I don't consider it my place to interfere in how they raise their kids.

I raised mine how I wanted and they did the same


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## Calliope (10 October 2012)

Explain "Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection" to them and they will work it out by themselves.


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## lindsayf (10 October 2012)

It is their parents right to do what they see fit.

It is your right to believe what you believe and in no way be apologetic for it.  The kids will notice how you interact differently with the world, compared to thier parents, esp if they are quite strict doctrine followers.  This puts you in a position to add value in their lives by exposing them to different opinions and perspectives...which they may not readily get elsewhere.

I think this kind of 'other modelling' can be done respectfully and tactfully.....it is just you living your life and sharing your perspective when the time is right and they are showing interest...its not like you are a missionary about it eh?  Enough of them about.


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## burglar (10 October 2012)

Tysonboss1 said:


> .
> 
> yes, for now I will continue avoiding ...




I was raised Catholic and had to go figure.

Sad part is that parents, teachers, and clergy censor all information.
These kids will grow up and discover the truth for themselves.

PSS Anything David Attenborough is must watch TV at my house!!

Richard Dawkins is antagonistic with it.


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## DocK (10 October 2012)

Have you actually discussed your quandry with your sister?  They are her children and she has a right to raise them within her faith.  Unless her newfound religion is a radical one the kids will come to no more harm than the multitudes of people like myself who were raised as christians and made up our own minds once grown.

You have a right to be true to yourself and imo should not be made to pretend to believe something which you disagree with.  If you see a lot of the kids I assume you have a reasonable relationship with your sister?  Can you not have an adult conversation with her about the discomfort you feel and try to reach a solution to suit you both?  There is usually a way to deflect questions such as those examples you gave with a remark along the lines of "lots of people hold different views about God, but the important thing is to try to be a good person" or something to that effect.  Unless the kids are totally cut off from children raised differently they will see this for themselves before too long.  

It's great that you have such concern for your sister's children, but at the end of the day they are her children and not yours, and unless she is an absolute fanatic they are unlikely to come to any harm by being raised to believe in a God.  You may need to decide whether it is more important to you to remain silent on the subject and remain a part of their lives, or cause a rift between your sister and yourself that results in you seeing far less of the children.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

notting said:


> "The fools that told you I would not love Christians distorted my message?" etc etc




 Nice try.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

Calliope said:


> Explain "Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection" to them and they will work it out by themselves.




I would love to have that discussion.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

lindsayf said:


> This puts you in a position to add value in their lives by exposing them to different opinions and perspectives...which they may not readily get elsewhere.




thats what I hope to do.


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## Tysonboss1 (10 October 2012)

DocK said:


> Have you actually discussed your quandry with your sister?  They are her children and she has a right to raise them within her faith.  Unless her newfound religion is a radical one the kids will come to no more harm than the multitudes of people like myself who were raised as christians and made up our own minds once grown.
> 
> You have a right to be true to yourself and imo should not be made to pretend to believe something which you disagree with.  If you see a lot of the kids I assume you have a reasonable relationship with your sister?  Can you not have an adult conversation with her about the discomfort you feel and try to reach a solution to suit you both?  There is usually a way to deflect questions such as those examples you gave with a remark along the lines of "lots of people hold different views about God, but the important thing is to try to be a good person" or something to that effect.  Unless the kids are totally cut off from children raised differently they will see this for themselves before too long.
> 
> It's great that you have such concern for your sister's children, but at the end of the day they are her children and not yours, and unless she is an absolute fanatic they are unlikely to come to any harm by being raised to believe in a God.  You may need to decide whether it is more important to you to remain silent on the subject and remain a part of their lives, or cause a rift between your sister and yourself that results in you seeing far less of the children.




Sound advice Dock


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## So_Cynical (10 October 2012)

Be truthful in your discussions with the kids, be honest and when the inevitable questions come be gentle while being honest and the kids will make up there own minds, some people struggle with the irrational and some don't.


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## young-gun (10 October 2012)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Sound advice Dock




You have an obligation to open the kids eyes imo tyson. give them choice so they aren't trapped and brainwashed by their parents from the get go. You have a small window of opportunity to open these kids minds and let them think for themselves. That doesn't meant ell them god doesn't exist, but let them know it's possible he/she/it doesn't exist.

I will be letting my kids(when they come along) think for themselves, as i have been allowed to. I can only hope they don't fall into Christianity, and I will go out of my way to ensure they aren't exposed to it at school. Everyone should be allowed to arrive at their own views without anyone else FORCING beliefs on them from the day they are born.

religion in all forms is a stranglehold on society. It always amazes me the whole heaven and hell thing. do people think that they have a doppelganger vessel just sitting there waiting, ageing as they do, and the moment they die their soul transfers(possibly through dimensions) into this new vessel that is either burning for eternity(along with anyone else who has carried out wrong doing, or has un-repented sins, or thought about a woman/man in-appropriately, or looked at someone the wrong way), or alternately playing checkers with jesus with a pina colada?

we're all just part of one big energy. jmo of course perhaps I will write a book about it and start a new religion, I could make up whatever I want, so long as it can't be proven or disproved, sounds lucrative.


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## spooly74 (10 October 2012)

Just tell them the truth. Nobody knows for sure.

You don't believe and it's fine that they do. They may or may not change their minds when they're older, like Mammy did.
Give them a hug, slip them 20 bucks and tell them this conversation never happened.


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## Tink (11 October 2012)

Great post Dock, agree, talk to your sister, they are her children.

Off topic -- I know quite a few would be really upset if you told their kids at a young age about Santa, take away the joy of Christmas in their childhood. 
Might be something you feel strongly about but not all -- think before you speak.


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## Tysonboss1 (11 October 2012)

Tink said:


> .
> 
> Off topic -- I know quite a few would be really upset if you told their kids at a young age about Santa, take away the joy of Christmas in their childhood.
> Might be something you feel strongly about but not all -- think before you speak.




Off topic- I don't run around telling people santa isn't real.

But if someone from my family asked me, I would feel uncomfortable lying for two reasons.

1, They probably already suspect it, hence the question. So it would be a deleberate open lie, to try and maintain a childs faith in somthing it is rational for them to question

2, I think if it becomes known to them that I am willing to lie about big issues ( to them santa is a big issue ) as they get older they may have a distrust on other topics such as drugs, drink driving etc etc.


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## Tink (11 October 2012)

OK, was just commenting on some of the conversation you said here --



Tysonboss1 said:


> They were told santa exists, am not sure if they still actually believe in it. That hasn't actually come up in conversation with me yet. But I guess that would create some ackwardness to.
> 
> As far as my own opinion goes on the subject, I don't plan to tell my kids santa is real.


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## Sdajii (11 October 2012)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Off topic- I don't run around telling people santa isn't real.
> 
> But if someone from my family asked me, I would feel uncomfortable lying for two reasons.
> 
> ...




I would never lie to a kid, as it seems you don't want to. If a kid asks me if Santa is real I'll always say that I don't believe so. Many will hate me for that, but I'm just not going to lie. I think it's really bad that one of the first messages we teach kids is that their parents are not going to be honest with them. There are so many genuinely wonderful and 'magical' things in this world, we don't need to substitute the real thing for some fictional fat man.

I don't have evidence that Jupiter isn't actually hollow and filled with aliens who run our government. I don't have evidence that there aren't invisible elves whispering in your ear when you sleep, guiding your dreams. I don't have evidence that there isn't a god, a Heaven or a Hell, but I can certainly see that it is overwhelmingly more likely that all these things are not the case/don't exist. Religion is Santa Claus for adults.

We're kidding ourselves if we think that most people are able to make their own mind up when they grow up. A few can, but *most* people in the world still follow the religion or lack of religion of their parents. If people had independent thought there would be no correlation between people's religion and their parents, can anyone even try to make that claim? Let's not kid ourselves. Convince a kid of something when they're young and it is very difficult to talk them out of it once they've grown up. The seed of independent thought needs to be planted early.

It's a difficult situation when a child is being told something by a parent which you disagree with. I think you need to respect the wishes of the parent and not tell the child that they are wrong, but I respect the child more than the parent. While I generally wouldn't go as far as directly opposing a child's parents (I would if they were in some suicide cult or whatever), I would I would always freely say that I believed something else and that it's okay to think about things and make up your own mind. Let them know that other ideas exist and that they're not forced to follow anything (any parent should already be doing this anyway rather than *forcing* their children to have the same beliefs - a very common practice).

Encouraging free thought isn't something everyone agrees with, including many of the people who claim they do, but if it's something you believe in, encourage it. It will piss some people off, but what positive change in the way people think hasn't pissed some people off? And isn't it usually the religious people being pissed off by positive changes in awareness and thought?


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## Tysonboss1 (11 October 2012)

This is the kind of rubbish I don't want kids to be exposed to without having any competting ideas.

These guys actual believe the world is 6000 years old, and the bible is 100% true and correct in every way.


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## moXJO (11 October 2012)

I think the best advice is talk to your sister first. Religious beliefs tend to have the power of splitting families apart if you go putting your foot in it just to satisfy you. Simply saying  "I have different beliefs" should suffice. You don't need to rub peoples face in the fact you think god is bs. I don't see how that is much better then religion. You can educate around the issue on so many different topics. But then that involves a bit more effort then "Hey Santa and God are BS, pass me a beer". You then make a liar out of their parents and their faith (whether misplaced or not) just to force your beliefs on them. Then watch the family fallout from that little home truth.

 Sure I would be fine if there was no religion. But good people find strength and conviction through their faith and I'm not really interested in giving them the proverbial poke in the eye just so I can let my ego feel good about educating the zealots. Personally I still turn to God in my weaker moments, but bad indian curries will do that to you.


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## overhang (11 October 2012)

*Re: Is it ok to tell young children God doesn't exist / does exist*



prawn_86 said:


> Do you have proof for the part in bold? If so a lot of people would be interested




How does one prove something mythological doesn't exist? 

Tyson if asked then I feel you should explain that many people believe in different religions and give examples of varies belief systems eg that Buddhists believe in reincarnation or that the Mormons believe we existed as a spirit before birth and of course atheists who don't believe in a diving being.  You may need to educate yourself before engaging in this conversation.  This is the capacity that I feel religion should be taught in schools, if children are educated in religious diversity then they can decide for themselves which one they like if any as children shouldn't be pigeon holed into a belief system.


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## $20shoes (12 October 2012)

Interesting topic.

Of course, there have been hundreds of deisms and theisms and scores of organised religions throughout the ages, and of course many offshoot religions take a twist from a core belief. And that is just in Western countries. 

If you take into account feudal beliefs and traditional spiritual beliefs of the East, Asia, Japan, Africa and Latin America, and before them Aboriginal spirituality, it is obvious that man/woman forms a yearning wherever a community are rooted in time/space. Carl Sagan called this desire, man's yearning to return to that from which we came - star dust. This neither proves/disproves anything, but it is a fact that from the earliest times, our first community necessity was to secure a food source and our second was to invest our fears/hopes into something more powerful, that the community's food supply would be overseen and protected. 

And I wrote that paragraph above very deliberately, because I feel that as communities got larger the same concepts were at play. And as the industrial Age kicked in, and as physical laws were proven and we came to understand the relation of Earth to the universe around us, we fundamentally realised how infinitely small and inconsequential our little planet really is. IF you look at the Pale Blue Dot photo, it is truly humbling. We can barely be seen from our own backyard;  indeed we are just a speck of a speck of a speck. The unfathomable vastness of the universe and time once again plays to this "star dust" yearning that we should invest our fears into something more powerful "out there", that we can pass on the unanswerable to a being who has all the answers. We are indeed Whos without a Horton.  

If you look at the next 100-200 years, it will be an interesting time. Granted, there is inequality in the Information Age but we presume that our lives and all information will be vastly indexed. Google is already the "what". The internet was not intended to be our brain but it is looking like that is what it will become. Computers will inevitably pass the Turing test in the next 100 years. And it is also inevitable that computers will eventually process information faster than humans can comprehend - i dont mean faster than we can think  - I mean we will no longer be able to COMPREHEND any computation due to the potential complexity and speed. The information will be output in a "dumbed down" version that can be comprehended by mere humans. What happens to God then? We will no doubt have artificial intelligence. We will have computing power that is capable of processing unknowable stuff. Do we then invest our hopes/fears into the artificial? Nothing will really have changed - "all that was and ever will be" happens here "on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam".


Inquiry and rigorous debate is good for the soul. Not that this helps you much, Tyson. I understand your predicament. 

But you can encourage inquiry without stepping on parent's toes. Depending on age, buy them this - 

Spectrums 

looks like a great little book that will get you and them thinking about the world around them ( out in Nov)
And of course, a little Carl Sagan never goes astray!


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## awg (12 October 2012)

I agree previous posters the best approach is to talk to the sister (if she is amenable.)

The exact example questions you gave, you could ask her for some advice on how to handle those matters, presumeably she is well aware you are a non-believer. At least she will see your dilemna and know you care

I was bought up in a fervent Christian environment, but from age approx 10, I began to question, based on Science. By my late teens, no-one would argue with me. Its no good arguing with beleivers, as it is a matter of faith to them.

As you seem to have a good relationship with your family, I would be wary about introducing conflicting notions in a childs mind or being "percieved" to have, as that may cause more harm than good to all.

( I still have post-trauma from when I was disabused of the notion of an Easter bunny, aged approx 5, handled badly)

In addition, if you are thoughtful, it is possible to compose a very moderate answer to even the most tricky question.

Less thoughtful, but more commonly used (at least by me)  "Dunno"..or "ask your mother" 

ps  probably shouldnt mention that you disapprove of bringing her kids up believing in that crap


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