# Who trades full-time?



## aramz (9 November 2009)

Hey,

Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade. First off i am under no illusion that i can trade fulltime. I just often wonder what other traders are doing and how some of the more successfull traders are going about their trading day and if they are making a living quite nicely or if they have given it a crack and foundout it is harder then they first thought. When i was a kid i used to love watching basketball videos and seeing basketballers train and play games etc. These guys would be the best of the best and sometimes seeing these videos kind of inspired me and gave me an understanding of what these guys might do everyday to maintain their professional level. I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.

Thanks in advance.


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## nulla nulla (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



aramz said:


> Hey,
> 
> Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade. First off i am under no illusion that i can trade fulltime. I just often wonder what other traders are doing and how some of the more successfull traders are going about their trading day and if they are making a living quite nicely or if they have given it a crack and foundout it is harder then they first thought. When i was a kid i used to love watching basketball videos and seeing basketballers train and play games etc. These guys would be the best of the best and sometimes seeing these videos kind of inspired me and gave me an understanding of what these guys might do everyday to maintain their professional level. I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.
> 
> Thanks in advance.




It would be interesting to see the amount of time put in and how it is applied:

Who trades full time;
What they trade;
How they go about their day;
Are they making a living out of it or otherwise;
Their daily schedule; 
Whether they are enjoying themselves; and
Instruments and methods used.


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## psychic (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I trade full-time and really enjoy doing so.  Making consistent profits.  I also have a part-time job on the side, just keeps me in the workforce loop if you know what I mean.

I day-trade so I wake up early, reserach, reasearch, research, then trade as the market opens.  I love what I do as I don't like being around people too much so it suits my personality.

I use lots of charts and stock dicussion boards as my research tools, along with newspapers, magazine and tv of course


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## ThingyMajiggy (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



psychic said:


> I trade full-time and really enjoy doing so.  Making consistent profits.  I also have a part-time job on the side, just keeps me in the workforce loop if you know what I mean.
> 
> I day-trade so I wake up early, reserach, reasearch, research, then trade as the market opens.  I love what I do as I don't like being around people too much so it suits my personality.
> 
> I use lots of charts and stock dicussion boards as my research tools, along with newspapers, magazine and tv of course




How long you been full time?


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## psychic (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



ThingyMajiggy said:


> How long you been full time?




About 5 years, with some breaks in-between for holidays overseas etc


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## vincent191 (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

It really depends on the market. When there is a lot of volatility and offers a lot of short term opportunities it is possible to trade full time. But when the market is moving side ways like the past two weeks it is like watching grass grow. It is time to catch up on some research and take a break. My advise is "do not trade for the sake of trading". I know some friend who fell uncomfortable unless they do some trading everyday!!!! To them it is like an addiction. Believe me, it is possible to get addicted especially if you are doing CFDs and Index trading.


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## wayneL (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I chat on the internet full time. Trading is a sideline.


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## Julia (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".    

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.


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## Amor_Fati (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.

But there is perhaps an in between, where a portfolio is actively managed but not traded. I would say this is where I am at the moment, but this is only one source of income for me and more about building wealth through reinvestment than paying the bills.

I would love to hear more about those who wrest their livings from the markets


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## LaptopPro (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> I chat on the internet full time. Trading is a sideline.




Haha yes!

Im Real Estate by day and Trader come evening.


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## Sir Osisofliver (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



nulla nulla said:


> It would be interesting to see the amount of time put in and how it is applied:
> 
> Who trades full time;
> What they trade;
> ...






Julia said:


> No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.
> 
> Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"
> 
> ...






Amor_Fati said:


> If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.
> 
> But there is perhaps an in between, where a portfolio is actively managed but not traded. I would say this is where I am at the moment, but this is only one source of income for me and more about building wealth through reinvestment than paying the bills.
> 
> I would love to hear more about those who wrest their livings from the markets




Define "Trades" - If I purchase an equity position at the bottom of the share cycle and decide NEVER to sell it given the beneficial Cost based yield I have created. I do not trade that position.  However if I use an option strategy around that position to generate an income...am I trading?  Trading means different things to different people. I agree with Julia do you derive a living from the market is a better descriptor.

I "Trade" CFD's and Small to mid Cap equity positions. I also use options a fair bit but mainly for risk management.

My style of "trading" does not take a huge amount of my time (because I risk manage to a far the well and I can trade from my desk). I therefore work...because I enjoy my job, I make a tidy sum from it and the wife would divorce me if I aimlessly mooched around the house all day.

I work in the finance industry so my day is....kind full and complex. Needless to say whilst I am "working" I am also researching the market, looking at share charts and doing other varied activities.

I make better than 70% of my income from my "investment activities" a rough guess would be that 20% of this is from pure "trading" activities.

Hell yes I enjoy myself.

Instruments and Methods used???   I have a couple of spreadsheets that when blank of information take up about 15 M of space on my hard-drive. 
No I will not share. :

Cheers

Sir O


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## wayneL (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.
> 
> Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"
> 
> ...




Good point.

I don't know why retail traders avoid using the term "professional" trader. If you make a living from something, you're a professional.  Reservation of the term for institutional traders is a nonsense IMO.

If you clip poodles for a living, you're a professional poodle clipper. 

That way the amount of time spent becomes irrelevant.


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## ThingyMajiggy (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



vincent191 said:


> But when the market is moving side ways like the past two weeks it is like watching grass grow.




What rock have you been living under??


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## shortlist (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.
> 
> Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"
> 
> ...




I think this is a good point actually and you would need much more capital simply to make a living through the interest on a bank account than you would to make a living via dividends on a pile of shares coming in every quarter. And if you have sufficient capital in a stock then on the days when your shares jump high you can sell a certain amount that equates with the amount gained, pocket the cash and still retain the original sum invested, no?

Those with smaller sums must swim in shallower waters I'm afraid and try and cream off profit pretty much on a daily basis, at least until they have been successful enough to do what I describe above.

On another note, I would caution against too much excitement on the prospect of "trading full time" from your own home or office. Having worked in an occuption that allowed me to spend a lot of time at home I can say that being cut off from the workforce does weird things to a man (or woman, no doubt). I know a very successful day trader who packed it in to work FT in the workforce just for the company and just trade on the side to keep up the skills and knowledge.

As always, regards, SL


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## skc (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> I don't know why retail traders avoid using the term "professional" trader. If you make a living from something, you're a professional.  Reservation of the term for institutional traders is a nonsense IMO.
> 
> If you clip poodles for a living, you're a professional poodle clipper.
> 
> That way the amount of time spent becomes irrelevant.




Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.



Amor_Fati said:


> If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.




I think no one who can make a living from a bank account will be satisfied with an income from the bank account, or could have accumulated the amount required to in the first place. Say you get 5%, you need 20x the amount. So you need to save 20x your annual income after tax in order to live off the interest... otherwise, if you only have 10x your annual income, you are effectively accepting half the living standard as before. 

The only way for this to be a real scenario is through inheritance or winning the lotto imo.



Julia said:


> No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.
> 
> Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"
> 
> ...




Both valid questions... none is wrong or right. But "derive a living from the market" is off the mark. I think the OP was interested in the daily workings of a retail trader who derive income from trading.


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## Julia (9 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



shortlist said:


> I think this is a good point actually and you would need much more capital simply to make a living through the interest on a bank account than you would to make a living via dividends on a pile of shares coming in every quarter. And if you have sufficient capital in a stock then on the days when your shares jump high you can sell a certain amount that equates with the amount gained, pocket the cash and still retain the original sum invested, no?



To the last point, yes, that's a rational strategy.
Re dividend income, yes, but imo it's important that in focusing on dividends you don't lose sight of what your capital is doing.  There's not much point banking dividends of $50K p.a. if your capital is losing $100 K p.a.



> On another note, I would caution against too much excitement on the prospect of "trading full time" from your own home or office. Having worked in an occuption that allowed me to spend a lot of time at home I can say that being cut off from the workforce does weird things to a man (or woman, no doubt). I know a very successful day trader who packed it in to work FT in the workforce just for the company and just trade on the side to keep up the skills and knowledge.



Thanks for raising a really important point.  Not every personality is suited to being alone with a computer, minus human interaction.



skc said:


> I think no one who can make a living from a bank account will be satisfied with an income from the bank account, or could have accumulated the amount required to in the first place.
> 
> The only way for this to be a real scenario is through inheritance or winning the lotto imo.



Not really.   I originally got into the share market with profits from real estate investments plus simple rigorous saving.


> But "derive a living from the market" is off the mark. I think the OP was interested in the daily workings of a retail trader who derive income from trading.



Perhaps the OP could clarify this.  I'd say "full time trading", as in the original question, implies no other income is being derived, therefore you'd have to infer the need to derive a full time living from the market.  If you were full time trading (or investing or whatever) when are you going to have time to earn a living by any other means?


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## aramz (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

Just some general questions about the trading life with some technicals about their schedule and if they are pulling in an income they can live comfortably off.

It might offer some guidance or give rookie traders some undestanding of what it's like to trade fulltime. Trading fulltime seems like such a distant goal sometimes and and it would be nice to know what it actually is like with regards to spending hours attached to a computer screen or whether someone juggles social life with spending 4 or so hours a day trading etc. Just a bit of insight. When at high school you can do work experience and vacation work all involving a career path you would like to follow. With trading you can't really sit behind a trader riding him while he makes and plans trades. 

Any input regarding what i've mentioned above would be great. The more the better.

Cheers.


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## wayneL (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.



You nearly had me there,  but what about the term professional gambler? I know (knew) many of those.

You imply that only an employee can be a professional.

Is a self employed accountant not a professional then?  

I don't use the term for myself because of the industry's hang-up with the word, but for all intents and purposes, I am a professional trader. No big deal though. 

pro⋅fes⋅sion⋅al  [pruh-fesh-uh-nl]  Show IPA
Use professional in a Sentence
–adjective
1.	following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.	of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.	appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.	engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.	following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6.	making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7.	undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8.	of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9.	done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10.	a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11.	a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12.	an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13.	a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.


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## Mr J (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.




That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.


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## nulla nulla (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Mr J said:


> That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.




Also the component of trading returns as income in your annual tax return. In my opinion, if trading represented the majority of your declared income you would arguably be a "professional" trader.


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## skc (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> You nearly had me there,  but what about the term professional gambler? I know (knew) many of those.
> 
> You imply that only an employee can be a professional.
> 
> Is a self employed accountant not a professional then?




That's employment status. My definition was about whether someone else pays them to do their job. Presumably the self employed account still gets paid to do someone's books.

But have to say you had me there with professional gamblers.



Mr J said:


> That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.




Your definition is a bigger can of worms. Professional attitude? What about sports person with lots of talent but are lazy, late for practice, carrying guns in nightclubs and doing drugs? And you will no doubt agree there are plenty of professionals (be they engineers, accountants or fortune teller) out there who are neither successful nor skillful...



nulla nulla said:


> Also the component of trading returns as income in your annual tax return. In my opinion, if trading represented the majority of your declared income you would arguably be a "professional" trader.




I know a doctor friend who earns more trading then performing surgery. I guess there is no rule to say you can't be professional in more than one area.

Anyhow... enough of this discussion. Call yourself what you like. I will stick with the one that allows me to get cheaper market data.


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## wayneL (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> Anyhow... enough of this discussion. Call yourself what you like. I will stick with the one that allows me to get cheaper market data.




Good point! 

Retail Trader it is!


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## cutz (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

G'Day WayneL,

I notice you're back down under. Doing the nightshift or are you trading aussie options again.


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## wayneL (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



cutz said:


> G'Day WayneL,
> 
> I notice you're back down under. Doing the nightshift or are you trading aussie options again.



Nightshift mate. I refuse to trade Oz options.


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## Mr J (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> Your definition is a bigger can of worms. Professional attitude? What about sports person with lots of talent but are lazy, late for practice, carrying guns in nightclubs and doing drugs? And you will no doubt agree there are plenty of professionals (be they engineers, accountants or fortune teller) out there who are neither successful nor skillful...




It may be insulting to unsuccessful and unskilled professionals, and ignoring the success of athletes that act unprofessionally, but being a "professional" in my opinion isn't a title, but a quality.


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## DB008 (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> Nightshift mate. I refuse to trade Oz options.




Why is that Wayne?


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## skc (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> Nightshift mate.




You are a professional indeed! May be you should move to Hawaii?


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## aramz (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Ill move the post here so it doesn't left behind on the other page. 

Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?

Heres the updated question from the previous page:

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

Just some general questions about the trading life with some technicals about their schedule and if they are pulling in an income they can live comfortably off.

It might offer some guidance or give rookie traders some undestanding of what it's like to trade fulltime. Trading fulltime seems like such a distant goal sometimes and and it would be nice to know what it actually is like with regards to spending hours attached to a computer screen or whether someone juggles social life with spending 4 or so hours a day trading etc. Just a bit of insight. When at high school you can do work experience and vacation work all involving a career path you would like to follow. With trading you can't really sit behind a trader riding him while he makes and plans trades. 

Any input regarding what i've mentioned above would be great. The more the better.

Cheers.


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## skc (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



aramz said:


> Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.




I trade full time (as a private retail trader ) and has been doing so for ~18 months. 

I start my day usually at 8am, catching up overnight market news, review existing trades (e.g. moving stops and targets) and pending orders, and scan for interesting stocks that I will watch closely during the day. When market opens it's all about managing/placing orders, checking entry and exit signals, reading news and announcements, researching and other analysis. After market closes, it's reviewing trades, records keeping, checking broker statements etc. Most days end at ~6pm, although I do often read (news / trading books etc) at night. 

So working hours are easily ~50-55 hours a week for me, which is similar to what I used to do in a full time job. I do save ~1hr each day commuting...
Trading full time to me was not a lifestyle choice at all, it was a work-style choice. Being able to make your own decisions, plan your own time, do everything your own style, review your own performance, no office politics or putting up with incompetent co-workers, wearing only undies if it gets hot... the benefits are endless. 

Some trading style probably require less hours worked. I guess I am just not that good. I also always worried that I will miss some opportunities. With full time trading you have to take opportunities when they come, as you just don't know when the next one will come around. To highlight the importance, my biggest trade accounted for 25% of my year's return... so I can't afford to miss too many of them.

I trade mostly Australian shares, and run a suite of discretionary strategies... bit of long, bit of short, bit of pairs, bit of technical analysis and bit of fundamental analysis. All strategies are changing all the time. Because the array of strategies, I sometimes have over 50 different positions at the same time... keeps me busy I guess.

One thing I would also stress is that you should start trading from a position of financial strength rather than financial need. If you want to make $100K a year, you should have at least 3x that amount. Otherwise you may be forced to push the action even when the market is quiet, or you will have trouble recovering from a poor first 6 months. Start small, build the skill, then build the capital. Or, if you have a large inheritance... then go for it.


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## wayneL (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



DB008 said:


> Why is that Wayne?



Lack of choice.
Lack of liquidity.
Lack of tradeable strikes.
Wide spreads.
Lack of a viable futures options market.
That's just off the top of my head



skc said:


> You are a professional indeed! May be you should move to Hawaii?



Shhhhh! I'll lose my cheap data rates. 



aramz said:


> Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?



Since 2003. I blew up one small account and fattened my "You Idiot" file early on.

You have to view options trading as an apprenticeship. It's as much art as science, so it takes a while to become consistent without some sort of mentor slapping you with a wet fish every now and again.

The lights came on when I managed to get some time with a big knob (through sheer luck) options trader that taught me how to think about options trading.


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## BradK (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> The lights came on when I managed to get some time with a *big knob* (through sheer luck) options trader that taught me how to think about options trading.




Hi Wayne, 

Left lovely Cheltenham for NZ??? What the... 

Take this the right way, but I am sure many would agree that you are the big knob when it comes to options around here. I have read your blog and had a few lights come on myself. 

Cheers
Brad


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## nunthewiser (10 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Hehehe

We get to call WayneL a big nob and get away with it for a short time while its on kinda topic.


Please excuse that moment of crude immaturity


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## aramz (12 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Thanks for the reply SKC that's exactly what i was looking for.

Does anyone else have anything to share regarding this topic?


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## Mr J (13 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



> Does anyone else have anything to share regarding this topic?




Time commitment varies from trader to trader, and I think it's important to find an amount that suits your personality and trading style.


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## Fishbulb (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I'll post this here as it's as good a place as any. 

Starting out, and I'm a wannabe full-time trader at this point. No real financial need, but I do have financial wants yessirree. And to that end, I'm studying as much as possible before I enter the market as an EOD trader - to begin with. 

There's just so much to learn, and it's easy to be overwhelmed by information if you don't stay focused on where you are.


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## Out Too Soon (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I've been trading full time on & off over the last few years. Still got a lot to learn & only sometimes successful. I have a rather slow internet connection as I live in a third world country ( Australia )  woops  ONLY JOKING !  I get in trouble for making cracks like that. Blame Telstra   so I can't compete with the real day traders 
  I try to trade between a few days to a few weeks, I only have a little capital that is really the banks money 
 I get busy from before open trade, if I have a lot of stock & little cash I'm looking for an up day to sell, vice versa if I'm mostly out of the mkt & the ASX is starting to climb I look to BUY more but normally I'm somewhere in between using charts 1st backed by info 2nd to make buy & sells for small profits 10 % or more is good, $100 is OK, less than $100 is grab something before it's negative.

Somedays if my stock isn't moving much I spend all day & sometimes evening looking for the next BUYs, Somedays when my stock & the ASX is stagnant I take a break & do some house maintenance & gardening  It's no use & dangerous to "Ã¶ver-trade" when the ASX isn't doing what you want & you're getting sick & frustrated = take a break.

I'll let you know how much capital  & how many yrs DIY experience I need when  I know myself 

My 1st goal is to consistently avg $2k profit /mth, at present I feel I'm nearly there but I'm an optimist. I'm considering taking a part time job after Xmas if I'm not more successful with my set goal 

Good luck with your trading, be persistant. The only way you'll know if you can day trade full time is by having a go. It helps to be living in a good environment. 

PS:  I'm jealous of ppl like Kennas. I imagine he's travelling Sth America with a laptop in his back pack. I hope to trade like that some day. Call it my long term goal


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## Aussiest (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



aramz said:


> Ill move the post here so it doesn't left behind on the other page.
> 
> Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?
> 
> ...




I started just before the GFC, lost a lot of $ due to not placing stop losses and using too much leverage. Once i had eroded my capital down to 55-60% of what it once was (i admit it, i am honest), i had pretty much decided to throw it in and return to my 'afternoon shift' job. A month later, I decided to go straight, and get a full time job. I had a week off in between, and during this time, I traded CBA like it was going out of fashion. I made around 8% of the capital I had lost, back.

When I started my new f/t job, I had just started watching the market again. I pulled a short trade on NCM which was successful. I then pulled 2 others that were successful.

Three months into my new job, I was made redundant.

Whilst I was looking for a new job, I started trading casually again, this time with a lot less risk. NO LEVERAGE was my motto, cut your losses short and I worked on holding my positions longer. I was a bit nervous about this, as I had originally been a ‘day trader’. I kept trading in this fashion and somewhere along the line, I decided I could make more money and be happier working for myself, from home. I also had a small part time gig, which paid for my living expenses etc. So, I have been trading on a more permanent basis from Feb of this year.

I sometimes get bored and entertain the idea of conventional employment again, and am prepared to so schlep work if I have to (after hours) as it alleviates some of the stress from trading.

When I first started trading, I would take on larger positions and day trade. I now trade smaller positions (scaling in if I need to) and try to hold them for longer. If I see a reason to sell though, I don’t hesitate. 

Now I’m at the stage where my strategy needs reviewing. I would like to use a bit of leverage and take slightly larger positions, but this won’t be without review.

Basically, my day starts like this: 

8:30-9am: check NASDAQ website, read ADVFN email, check news on ASF, check economic calender. Check oil and gold prices. Analyze DOW performance (buying, sell offs, afternoon trading). Log on to CFD provider to see US futures..

Check charts possible price action, pre market. Make decisions on what i think is going to be hot for the day.

I tend to focus on 3-4 stocks at a time as I find the price and volume action ebbs and flows throughout the sectors. 

Basically, I don’t refer to myself as a “trader” as I feel uncomfortable about it and know there are far more experienced than me here, but I realise I am “trading” for now.


----------



## Bronte (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



aramz said:


> Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade.
> I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.




We trade the 'SPI' sort of full time:
6.50 am to 8.30 am :nuts:
11.30 am to 12.45 pm  ish
Happy 1/2 hour sometimes.

My husband retired from engineering over ten years ago to do this.
We absolutely love what we do.

Good luck aramz


----------



## Aussiest (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

It's interesting Bronte that you trade the SPI from 6:45am onwards. Do you find the largest moves there?


----------



## Bronte (26 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Sometimes that is true Aussiest,
It is more profitable for us to trade with the volume.


----------



## sydney_hawka (29 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I've been Trading Futures for the last 6 months. Going full time at years end. It's very rewarding when you find a Strategy that works and stick to it. I was lucky enough to get a big kick in the a*** to start with, but most importantly, learnt from my mistakes, and now the worlds my oyster.

Absolutely love what I do. Lifestyle is the main reason for taking it up full time. The money is great, but other things are more important.


----------



## nomore4s (29 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Bronte said:


> We trade the 'SPI' sort of full time:
> 6.50 am to 8.30 am :nuts:
> 11.30 am to 12.45 pm  ish
> Happy 1/2 hour sometimes.




Is that Perth time or Sydney time?


----------



## IFocus (29 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I trade full time but not all the time if that makes sense, once I worked out that its market conditions that makes the returns for me and not because I am a genus, guru, super intuitive trader, have the ultimate mechanical system, have the holy grail etc, simply the market fits my strategies I make profits.

Oh some times I get it right and some times not...........

So when the market isn't working for me I do some thing else.


----------



## nomore4s (29 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



IFocus said:


> I trade full time but not all the time if that makes sense, once I worked out that its market conditions that makes the returns for me and not because I am a genus, guru, super intuitive trader, have the ultimate mechanical system, have the holy grail etc, simply the market fits my strategies I make profits.
> 
> Oh some times I get it right and some times not...........
> 
> So when the market isn't working for me I do some thing else.




Good post IFocus and I totally agree, I actually think this is a part of trading that is seriously overlooked.

The more I trade the more I realise the general market conditions have a big say on my bottom line and if I'm using the wrong strategy for the conditions I end up in drawdown. Some conditions just don't suit my trading and psychology so I'm better off sitting out or at the very least cutting back on my risk and the number of trades I'm taking.
If this causes me to miss a few profitable trades so be it, there will always be more opportunities but if I lose too much capital I might not be able to take full advantage of them later on when conditions suit my trading.


----------



## Julia (29 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I'd be interested to know if others experience periods of total lack of interest in the market.

This happens to me for a month or two about once a year, not at any particular time or for any particular reason.  Just get totally bored by it all, don't want to read the financial press, even.

Just lose any hunger to make more money.   

Anyone else?


----------



## johnnyg (30 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> I'd be interested to know if others experience periods of total lack of interest in the market.
> 
> This happens to me for a month or two about once a year, not at any particular time or for any particular reason.  Just get totally bored by it all, don't want to read the financial press, even.
> 
> ...




Wow, get off my wave length Julia, This has happened to me over the last 4 weeks or so. Was even going to start a topic on it here but couldn't be bothered. 

I wouldn't say mine has been a loss of hunger to make $$$, just that I'm currently channeling more energy into things that are making me money, then the studying and learning of trading that I've been doing for the last 9 months or so.

I have a tendency to get quite into something for a period of time (say 1-2 years) then lose all interest in it, it's almost like a repeating behavioral pattern. I am aware of it, and need to pay close attention too. 

For myself I think there has been a number of factors contributing to it. I completed a goal I set to achieve, heading into Christmas & the break over new years I feel the market slows up, lack of posting in general from myself and others online, different ventures which are _currently_ making me $. 

Hoping to come back fresh and fighting mid Jan.


----------



## Bronte (30 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



nomore4s said:


> Is that Perth time or Sydney time?



6.15 AM Perth time
Here we go again


----------



## nomore4s (30 November 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Bronte said:


> 6.15 AM Perth time
> Here we go again






Aussiest said:


> It's interesting Bronte that you trade the SPI from 6:45am onwards. Do you find the largest moves there?




Not sure what you mean Bronte, I was only asking because Aussiest's post gave off the impression it was Sydney time.


----------



## WilliamP (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I spent a couple of months trading full time with a group of others out of an office and to be honest most were unsuccessful. This was over 5 years ago and we traded stocks and CFDs.

Trading day looked like this...
Wrap up world markets including US, commodities etc
View daily news on a news aggregator
Run daily scans using Metastock
Identify trades for the day
Discuss possibilities with all
Markets open
The trading day was extremely boring most days. We watched Fashion TV pretty much all day to pass the boredom.
The highlight was usually having lunch in the food court downstairs.

Trading 'full time' requires that you are diligent with your time or you have some side projects to work on. We use to do a lot of system testing using metastock and tradesim, testing theories etc.

Following on from this I met a trader who had a decent trading portfolio and would have up to 60 positions at a time (trading CFDs on leverage). He spent about 1 hour a day monitoring his trades (adjusting stops etc) and worked full time. I watched him make many $5,000 trading days and over a 2 week period just over $50,000 in one good stretch. He also had some bad days but on average made a lot of money. Only used mechanical trading systems.

I then realised that the goal of trading is to make money, not spend 12 hours a day analysing the markets. For me his results were a real wake up call.

Having confidence in positive expectancy trading systems is a traders goal.


----------



## Bryan Carlin (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I trade full time and am a 'day trader'. I rely on the income to survive. I do not mean that if I did not trade I would go broke. I have substantial assets and trade because I love the challenge. It is not possible to be a 'part time'  day trader because if you take your eye off the markets, you will miss the opportunity you have been waiting for. Research is vital and this must be done 'out of trading hours' which takes time. You need to have a mentor which enables you both to consult and exchange ideas.

The mentor may also bring you back down to earth when you think you are on a winner. You must remember that for every trade there is a winner and a looser. The best thing about trading is pressing the sell button for a profit.

No one likes to tell people about their losses...they feel like dills, but the truth is we all make losses. Protecting you investmnet is the most inportant issue. Read the 'posts' and tell me how many people talk about their losses?

Do your research, learn, read, and read again, do your research, continue to read every day. Be patient and do not jump in where fools are welcome.

Trading (as opposed to investing) is hard work. You can make money but only if you understand the 'mentality' of the market. If you can master the expectations of the heard mentality, you have a chance.

Get yourself a mentor who has been trading successfully for at least 5 years (preferably 40 years) and 'suck his brains'.

Best of luck. If you happen to ignore my advice, then I welcome you to the world of share trading, because I cannot exit without people like you.


----------



## Synergy (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I don't consider myself a full time trader as I trade an end of day mechanical system on the asx, but i do consider it to be my second profession.

Basically my day consists of getting up, looking what the the OS markets did overnight, for interests sake. Go to work, have a look at the market on open if i'm at a computer. Get home and spend roughly 30mins putting on the trades for the next day and having a look at how things are performing.

I have tried 'playing' the markets for a short while on a more full time basis, but for me, trading an end of day system while sitting watching the market (and dabbling in day trading) is impossible. I do not have the mental strength to trade the system as designed while I'm watching the market all day. I don't think i ever will, and It's probably a good thing - It's not necessary.

I didn't find that i could live a healthy lifestyle during this short period of full time trading. I think that psychologically, it's much healthier to trade part time initially, and probably for quie a few years, before making trading a full time job. I think you need to be able to totally separate the money aspect in trading from trading itself before making trading your full time day job.


----------



## sydney_hawka (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Bryan Carlin said:


> I trade full time and am a 'day trader'. I rely on the income to survive. I do not mean that if I did not trade I would go broke. I have substantial assets and trade because I love the challenge. It is not possible to be a 'part time'  day trader because if you take your eye off the markets, you will miss the opportunity you have been waiting for. Research is vital and this must be done 'out of trading hours' which takes time. You need to have a mentor which enables you both to consult and exchange ideas.
> 
> The mentor may also bring you back down to earth when you think you are on a winner. You must remember that for every trade there is a winner and a looser. The best thing about trading is pressing the sell button for a profit.
> 
> ...




You are SPOT ON mate!!! Im taking up the challenge Full Time in 2010. One I look forward to.


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



sydney_hawka said:


> You are SPOT ON mate!!! Im taking up the challenge Full Time in 2010. One I look forward to.



I'm interested to know how long you have had experience in share markets? The reason being is I myself failed at full time trading because I lacked the experience/knowledge to do so. Simple as that. I'm assuming years upon years.


----------



## cutz (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Bryan Carlin said:


> Get yourself a mentor who has been trading successfully for at least 5 years (preferably 40 years) and 'suck his brains'.
> 
> Best of luck. If you happen to ignore my advice, then I welcome you to the world of share trading, because I cannot exit without people like you.




G'Day BC,

You sound like you know what your talking about, what do you trade and how long have you been at it ?

How does a newbie get a guru for mentoring purposes, does it cost a lot of coin or will the guru do it for free ?


----------



## sydney_hawka (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I'm interested to know how long you have had experience in share markets? The reason being is I myself failed at full time trading because I lacked the experience/knowledge to do so. Simple as that. I'm assuming years upon years.




I've been Trading for a number of Years in Stocks, Options & Futures. Most of them unsuccessfully. I started Trading Futures this year. I have a Mentor with over 25 Years experience, who Manages a very large Futures Fund. This particular Gentleman has shown me the way. I developed my own strategy, which is a bastardisation of his + a couple of added extras, and so far has proven to be a big winner. So much so, that Im going full time in 2010.


----------



## cutz (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



sydney_hawka said:


> I have a Mentor with over 25 Years experience, who Manages a very large Futures Fund.




Hi sydney,

I asked BC a similar question,

How did you get hold of a mentor, is it costing money or is he/she doing it as a favor ?

BTW, what the name of the futures fund ?


----------



## wayneL (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



wayneL said:


> I chat on the internet full time. Trading is a sideline.



I've changed my profession.

I'm now a full time gardener (foolishly, I'm in a house with lots of hedges ), dog walker and wine quaffer. ( I live two minute walk from the nearest vineyard )

La Dolce Vita ('cept for all the hedge trimming )

Trading still a sideline.


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



sydney_hawka said:


> I've been Trading for a number of Years in Stocks, Options & Futures. Most of them unsuccessfully. I started Trading Futures this year.



Oh okay. One sure has to know what they are doing before hand. I can't get over how much there is to know about the securities markets. Like one long learning curve. This is my 4 th year of full immersion in the industry and refining my trading system is where I'm at.


----------



## Kryzz (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I'm interested to know how long you have had experience in share markets? The reason being is I myself failed at full time trading because I lacked the experience/knowledge to do so. Simple as that. I'm assuming years upon years.




Wysiwyg, 

What/how did you trade when you when went full time (futures, stocks, fx)? How long had you had experience in market before you gave it a crack?

cheers


----------



## bonkerrs (21 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I'm interested to know how long you have had experience in share markets? The reason being is I myself failed at full time trading because I lacked the experience/knowledge to do so. Simple as that. I'm assuming years upon years.



Like wise. How long for you? I mean before you tried out 'full-time'. I've considered it too but know I defo need many more notches under the belt before beginning this journey.

edit: should have refreshed before posting, already answered.


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



bonkerrs said:


> Like wise. How long for you? I mean before you tried out 'full-time'. I've considered it too but know I defo need many more notches under the belt before beginning this journey.
> 
> edit: should have refreshed before posting, already answered.





Kryzz said:


> Wysiwyg,
> 
> What/how did you trade when you when went full time (futures, stocks, fx)? How long had you had experience in market before you gave it a crack?
> 
> cheers




What .... was Australian shares, CFD cash indices and foreign exchange market. How .... was discretionary selection based predominantly on company news announcements.  x 2.
How long before ... about 1 1/2 years.

Did much wrong because I did not know any other way. For one I did not have a system and two I didn't use a stop loss. Share prices always go up ... right. :shake:


----------



## Kryzz (22 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Wysiwyg said:


> What .... was Australian shares, CFD cash indices and foreign exchange market. How .... was discretionary selection based predominantly on company news announcements.  x 2.
> How long before ... about 1 1/2 years.
> 
> Did much wrong because I did not know any other way. For one I did not have a system and two I didn't use a stop loss. Share prices always go up ... right. :shake:




Thanks for that wysiwyg, where are you at now atm if you don't mind me asking? I assume you trade FX and equities (in the process of developing a mechanical system based on your posts re amibroker etc)? Do you intend on having another go at trading full time anytime soon?

 Was your attempt at trading full time a good decision for you, learning wise? I'm currently making an ok return on a small amt of money with FX, was thinking of putting a relatively larger amount in in the new year, with full-time trading the ultimate goal. I feel this would be my next logical step.

Appreciate your responses, 
cheers!


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 December 2009)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Kryzz said:


> Was your attempt at trading full time a good decision for you, learning wise?



Yes experience wise and no financial wise. 

:topicDid I tell you about the time I pulled 907 points in 6 hours on +1 US$10 DOW cash contract.  Biggest jag yet. Yes that was over 10k AUD in six hours from a DOW bounce. Obviously I missed more than I hit during the bear market and more stupid luck than anything. Boast number 74 on this thread.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394

Of course I'll be back. :


----------



## richard99 (6 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I wouldn't mind having a crack at full time trading but I think I need to increase my knowledge first. I think if I did it then I would still like to have a part time job just to give me some time away from home.

From what I understand if your a full time trader you can avoid paying 
capital gains tax.... is this correct ?

Also can someone please define day trading for me. Is it the same thing
as full time trading ?


----------



## Julia (6 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Richard, what sort of capital base would you intend to be the basis of your full time trading?
What income level would you need to achieve if you had no other job, or alternatively if you had just a part time job?


----------



## richard99 (6 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I'd be looking to make $40,000 + from full time trading.

I'd be starting with $30,000


----------



## Julia (6 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



richard99 said:


> I'd be looking to make $40,000 + from full time trading.
> 
> I'd be starting with $30,000



Hmm.  I think I'll leave it to someone else to take this further.


----------



## richard99 (6 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I know I probably need more capital to make it work.

Julia I am in the chat room - can you give me some advice..


----------



## weird (7 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> I trade full time (as a private retail trader ) and has been doing so for ~18 months.
> 
> I start my day usually at 8am, catching up overnight market news, review existing trades (e.g. moving stops and targets) and pending orders, and scan for interesting stocks that I will watch closely during the day. When market opens it's all about managing/placing orders, checking entry and exit signals, reading news and announcements, researching and other analysis. After market closes, it's reviewing trades, records keeping, checking broker statements etc. Most days end at ~6pm, although I do often read (news / trading books etc) at night.
> 
> ...




Good post skc, still reading through the rest of it.


----------



## weird (7 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Unpopular comment, but does being retired from your normal work, and now that you sit at home all day , constituent saying "I trade full time". I guess it does, although the so called dream for most  happens before 65. Not ageist ... we should all exploit life for the longest ... but don't add a 'stage' of life to mess with dream stats.


----------



## nomore4s (7 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



richard99 said:


> I'd be looking to make $40,000 + from full time trading.
> 
> I'd be starting with $30,000






richard99 said:


> I know I probably need more capital to make it work.
> 
> Julia I am in the chat room - can you give me some advice..




Richard, I'm going to be pretty blunt here so don't take offense, just giving you a bit of reality.

First, if you think you can consistently pull over 100% return on your money each year even using a high leverage, especially if trading only ASX stocks you would want to be a pretty experienced & accomplished trader and judging by some of the comments you have made in the chatroom the other day, you're not even close.

Also $40,000 per year is in reality a small salary if relying solely on the markets by the time you take operating costs & tax out, 1 major mistake or hit and you are a long way behind the 8-ball especially with only $30k behind you. It would also be very hard to grow your capital on that sort of income. In some ways trading is harder then running most other businesses and requires just as much (if not more) entrepreneurship, innovation, skill, capital, hard work and good luck.

You are correct that you don't pay capital gains tax but you do pay tax on your profits - it is not a tax free business.

I suggest you have a good search of this forum and find out the reality of how hard what you are suggesting will be. There are plenty of posts from experienced and not so experienced traders that have blown more then $30k on the way to learning how to successfully trade.
If you are serious and determined to become a successful fulltime trader I would suggest you start really studying the markets and learn how they work and then sit down and work out a plan on how you can obtain that goal before you blow that $30k.

Good luck and I hope you do stick around and learn.


----------



## Mr J (7 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



weird said:


> Unpopular comment, but does being retired from your normal work, and now that you sit at home all day , constituent saying "I trade full time". I guess it does, although the so called dream for most  happens before 65. Not ageist ... we should all exploit life for the longest ... but don't add a 'stage' of life to mess with dream stats.




If someone said they were a full-time trader, I would think they were just after a no-hassle way of describing their occupation to 'outsiders'. Either that or they worked long hours, thought it needed a 'full-time' approach, or that they just went 'pro' .

I wouldn't bother, I just say "trader", along with the other 1-2 word answers I have for this topic.


----------



## newbie trader (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Richard,

Not sure if this is right but maybe pick a rough annual return % that you think you could achieve then divide that into the amount of income you wish to generate.

(e.g 50k per year at 20% = $250, 000 trading capital?)

This is just my opinion (which probably isn't correct).

N.T


----------



## kincella (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I just came across this site....he has some interesting articles for stock pickers

and substantial journo skills.... boasts 282% return over 13 years.....sounds modest to me....
what returns do most posters achieve...or other stock selection sites boast

http://jubakpicks.com/2010/02/19/why-even-after-a-70-gain-this-is-still-a-secular-bear-market/

heard this on the radio...believe it was in response to the Greek pm's explaination of derivatives....

its like taking out an insurance policy on your neighbours house, then burning down the house in order to collect....


----------



## newbie trader (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



kincella said:


> boasts 282% return over 13 years




Just to clarify, do you mean 282% (so around 21% return per year) or an avg return of 282% each year for 13 years?

N.T


----------



## newbie trader (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

If anyone would be happy to post some examples of their annual returns or make some guesses as to what is achievable, it may be of help to Richard.

N.T


----------



## Julia (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



newbie trader said:


> If anyone would be happy to post some examples of their annual returns or make some guesses as to what is achievable, it may be of help to Richard.
> 
> N.T



Not really.  What is achievable will be determined by the experience and skill of the individual.


----------



## Largesse (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

don't know why anyone would want to trade fulltime

worst gig in the world


----------



## tech/a (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Largesse said:


> don't know why anyone would want to trade fulltime
> 
> worst gig in the world




Agree
Couldnt think of anything worse.

I have no desire or intention.

As to how much youd need its like any business MOST are initially under capitalised.
If you bought any business how much would you expect to make in profit investing $40k in it?
The business average for a good one with a proven return is 30% on capital
so for $100K thats $350K initial capital.

My own business has 6x that in capital invested and a commensurate return.
After working 30 yrs to get there why on earth would I (Or anyone else in a similar position) want to trade for a living!


----------



## mazzatelli (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Largesse said:


> don't know why anyone would want to trade fulltime
> 
> worst gig in the world




Where are these idiots who would choose this as a professional career? 
Especially the discretionary proprietary futures type :


----------



## skyQuake (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



mazzatelli said:


> Where are these idiots who would choose this as a professional career?
> Especially the discretionary proprietary futures type :




Only those who go in bright eyed bushy tailed and choose the SPI :


----------



## Julia (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Largesse said:


> don't know why anyone would want to trade fulltime
> 
> worst gig in the world






tech/a said:


> Agree
> Couldnt think of anything worse.
> 
> I have no desire or intention.
> ...



I wonder if the thread title is actually misleading (or perhaps it does actually mean what it says)?

i.e. imo it would be impossibly boring to "full time" trade if that means sitting at a computer for eight or more hours per day, that being the common definition of 'full time'.

Such a thread title implies that by 'full time trading' you are able to support yourself and need no other job.  Fairly obviously this could well be as much a matter of level of capital as of any particular skill.

If you have enough capital you can easily support yourself without any need to be "full time trading".  

So maybe the OP could explain what he/she actually had in mind when starting the thread.  From what I read on this forum plenty of people could easily spend 'full time' hours engaged in the market and still not come anywhere near deriving a living.


----------



## Largesse (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skyQuake said:


> Only those who go in bright eyed bushy tailed and choose the SPI :




why do you mock me so?


----------



## Largesse (14 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> I wonder if the thread title is actually misleading (or perhaps it does actually mean what it says)?
> 
> i.e. imo it would be impossibly boring to "full time" trade if that means sitting at a computer for eight or more hours per day, that being the common definition of 'full time'.
> 
> ...





sitting at a computer, working a 'normal' job for 8 or more hours a day, 5 days a week isn't also impossibly boring?


----------



## newbie trader (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

When I read the 'OP' I thought the 'full-time traders' would just be discussing their schedules and what not rather than debating what constitutes a full-time trader. 

Julia, I would contend that someone can be a full-time trader irrespective of whether they are making money or losing money. The only difference between a full-time trader who is losing money and one who is gaining is that one will be trading for a lot longer than the other.

I think that it would be pretty interesting to see some of the 'full-time traders' schedules and how similar or different they are (i.e wake up 6 shower brekky 7 research blah blah blah).

side note: am not a stalker just interested.

N.T


----------



## nomore4s (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



tech/a said:


> Agree
> Couldnt think of anything worse.
> 
> I have no desire or intention.
> ...




I couldn't think of anything better tbh.

After working for International & National companies and running a business with 6-9 employees, I personally can't wait to trade for a living (with other projects on the side).

I can earn very good money trading 2-4 hrs a day with another 2-3 hrs a day in prep, research & admin, with very little overhead costs compared to my current business.

Compare this to currently working 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week and you can start to see the attraction. Also no staff to deal with (anyone who has run a business will know that while staff are an asset to the business they also create lots of headaches), no customer problems to put up with and not having to chase money owed.


----------



## nomore4s (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> i.e. imo it would be impossibly boring to "full time" trade if that means sitting at a computer for eight or more hours per day, that being the common definition of 'full time'.




Julia, how does this differ from 90% of any other office type job?


----------



## gooner (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Julia said:


> I wonder if the thread title is actually misleading (or perhaps it does actually mean what it says)?
> 
> i.e. imo it would be impossibly boring to "full time" trade if that means sitting at a computer for eight or more hours per day, that being the common definition of 'full time'.
> 
> ...




If you have $1 million of capital, this would probably return 4% dividends and 5% capital growth or $90,000 a year just by investing in a portfolio of blue chips. That is enough for most people to live on. You may tinker around the edges and move in and out of stocks and call yourself a trader. This does not need much of time commitment. If you are going to trade "Full time", then you want to be earning well above 10% return on your capital, otherwise you would be better off passive investing, getting 9% and spending  your time at the golf course, or doing something interesting instead.


----------



## Trembling Hand (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



nomore4s said:


> I couldn't think of anything better tbh.
> 
> After working for International & National companies and running a business with 6-9 employees, I personally can't wait to trade for a living (with other projects on the side).
> 
> ...




You forgot the best bit. Just not turning up if you cannot be shagged doing it today, this week, this month.

Besides actually having 20 mil in the bank or say 20 IPs. Its as close to freedom as you will get while still "working". And that includes owning/operating a business.


----------



## Knoxy (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Trading full time looks fine to me given I commute 3h a day, work a 50+ hour week and have a stressful job. All killing me by degrees.

I'm taking a month off from mid-Apr and trading full time to see if I can hack it. Traded fx now for 6y so have some idea what I'm in for.

Figure my routine will be up at 7 and working a full day to at least 5. Best to continue with a working routine than slack off too much.

Best bit to me is you can double your income by larger position size. Then maybe double again. There's no way I'll ever double my current salary, I'm successful but have reached the practical limit.


----------



## Trembling Hand (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Knoxy said:


> Figure my routine will be up at 7 and working a full day to at least 5. Best to continue with a working routine than slack off too much.




 why? doing more can lead you to earning a lot less in this game.


----------



## skyQuake (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Trembling Hand said:


> why? doing more can lead you to earning a lot less in this game.




Seems to me the reading/researching/backtesting/forwardtesting part is the long hours. The trading itself can be a bit boring once you know what you're doing.
(Unless of course, you're scalping the HSI... or natural gas )


----------



## Julia (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



Largesse said:


> don't know why anyone would want to trade fulltime
> 
> worst gig in the world






Largesse said:


> sitting at a computer, working a 'normal' job for 8 or more hours a day, 5 days a week isn't also impossibly boring?






nomore4s said:


> Julia, how does this differ from 90% of any other office type job?



I didn't suggest there was any difference between trading if you do it full time or doing any other office job, did I?
I couldn't do anything that would require sitting at a computer all day.


----------



## Julia (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



gooner said:


> If you have $1 million of capital, this would probably return 4% dividends and 5% capital growth or $90,000 a year just by investing in a portfolio of blue chips. That is enough for most people to live on. You may tinker around the edges and move in and out of stocks and call yourself a trader. This does not need much of time commitment. If you are going to trade "Full time", then you want to be earning well above 10% return on your capital, otherwise you would be better off passive investing, getting 9% and spending  your time at the golf course, or doing something interesting instead.




Exactly my point, gooner, thanks.
And why I was simply questioning what the OP had in mind when asking "who trades fulltime?"


----------



## peter2 (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Knoxy may I suggest that you study the fx markets you want to trade and find the times that the market moves the amount you need. For my needs the Asian session delivers only 20% of the opportunities. I would be wasting my time looking at the market 0700 - 1700. The UK session delivers 50% and the US session 30%.


----------



## newbie trader (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

I agree with Julia, sitting at a computer all day cut off from other people imo would be terrible. The way I see it i'll be able to make a comfortable living as a solicitor/barrister and supplement that income with my investment ventures (I would see full-time trading as a bit pointless when I can both work and trade). I think you need a special type of person to consistently sit at their computer all day without human contact trading the market and for those who can do it well it's probably a testement to their persistence, skill sets and personality.

N.T


----------



## Knoxy (15 March 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



peter2 said:


> Knoxy may I suggest that you study the fx markets you want to trade and find the times that the market moves the amount you need. For my needs the Asian session delivers only 20% of the opportunities. I would be wasting my time looking at the market 0700 - 1700. The UK session delivers 50% and the US session 30%.





Thanks Peter,

Yes most accessible movement is around the Euro open and it may be I reconsider my hours. But at this point will try a normal working day. Just didn't want to say I'll work until 11pm, but I'll do so if haven't met daily pips. 

If you're interested, I determine the pairs with the highest daily range (usually GBPJPY, GBPUSD, EURJPY, XAUUSD - don't like GBPCHF) and trade these using primarily 30m charts, using 5 min for exits. Also trade EURUSD out of habit. 

30m would be very ususual for a day trader but my method works best there. All I'm looking for is 60 pips/d total out of a combined range that usually exceeds 700 p. Cheers.


----------



## nascimento (28 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

What do you mean full time? 24 per day?


----------



## bonkerrs (28 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



nascimento said:


> What do you mean full time? 24 per day?




Probably more like trading being the only/main source of income, regardless of the amount of time.


----------



## aramz (28 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Hey guys i am the original poster. Sorry about my absence from this thread while there were questions being fired regarding the topic.

Basically i wanted to know how some traders operate during their trading day. I am moreso interested to hear from traders who derive an income from the markets and do so not by investing some of their millions into blue chips an reaping dividends and steady profits.

Whether the trader scalps forex for everyday profits and dabbles in the some equities or whether he/she trades the SPI and and also trend trades while writting puts and calls off these short or long trends he/she follows. How many hours a day this person may trade for or research or if it varies from day to day. Also if they are happy with their choice of 'trading for a living' or if it is alot harder and stressfull then what they first thought.

Basically if someone wants to suss out what it would be like to work as an engineer for a living or a plumber etc you can do work experince and you can speak with lots of people openly about life in these professions. With trading for a living though it is hard to find people to talk to it about or get an idea what it would be like and learn of the rigours they go through during the day. 

*I started this thread so people who traded for a living and derived an income from the market could share their experiences and offer an insight to others who might like the idea of trading for a living or those who might be currently on a rigorous journey of knowledge and skill building so they one day could do the same.*

Cheers guys and thanks for keeping this thread going.


----------



## pixel (29 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Hi aramz;


> "I started this thread so people who traded for a living and derived an income from the market could share their experiences and offer an insight to others who might like the idea of trading for a living or those who might be currently on a rigorous journey of knowledge and skill building so they one day could do the same."




that's what I thought - and got confused about injections about Millions in blue chips and time for the golf course.
Some people can't play golf or don't like golf. 
Some people may enjoy working from home for a living. 
It's indeed a question of choice, of lifestyle, of physical capabilities, and many more.

If I had a Million Dollars or two, I'd probably trade/ invest in a different way to the short-fuse daytrading and swing-trading that has paid my wages for the past ten years. Initially, the stress of having to perform was on a par with the stress of frustration in a middle management position, where the next layer was more interested in their perks, right to make stupid demands, and insist on ineffective principles, policies, and procedures.
Compared to that, working as a trader from home is Paradise, thanks to the ability to discuss matters _en famille_ because trading success affects and interests everybody. The bliss of being able to say "I love my new Boss!" and really mean it!

On the other hand, the need for a professional approach, strict hours and attention to details - routine though they may become - is paramount. By the time the ASX opens, I have to be prepared - usually starting an hour before, checking Overseas markets, obtaining a feeling for which challenges and opportunities to expect today, checking on vulnerable and maturing positions, and finding options for new trades.

There are days, when nothing much is happening: all trades are humming along, and nobody is bothering me with emails and questions. When that happens, I don't consider it unprofessional to leave the office and have a "social life" for a change. Or communicate with friends and family around the Globe.

After Market Close, I go straight into book keeping: enter trades into my portfolio management system; evaluate successes and reasons for less successful early stop-outs, and have the computer report the actuals.

The afternoon is then free for family, friends, hobbies - whatever one's inclination. And if one's mobility is somewhat restricted, the computer can again be a window to the world.
The key to "Trading for a Living" is "Enjoying what I'm doing". If the attitude is professional and positive, success will follow inevitably.


----------



## weird (29 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



pixel said:


> Hi aramz;
> 
> 
> that's what I thought - and got confused about injections about Millions in blue chips and time for the golf course.
> ...




 There was an earlier comment where someone said, I would rather be a lawyer during the day, problem with that is that every hour you bill, is ever hour you spent in the office.

But with trading, it does not have to be based on hours spent, look into automation, you can have a computer do all that for you ... just be proficient enough to program in the rules.


----------



## aramz (29 April 2010)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Thanks Pixel. That is exactly the reply i am after. An insight into the life of someone who makes a living from the market. Whether they spend strict hours at a computer or sometimes take a day off when on a roll and how much preperation is involved with each trading day etc. Also possibly what instruments they trade and if they may mix up their trading when the market trends change for instance a trader may look for brief day trading rallies and shorting opportunities when the market is trending down etc. Ellaborate as much as you want.

I will re post the bulk of my last post which goes into specifics of what my original post was intended for. Being at the bottom of the last page it may be missed by quite a few posters:

Basically i wanted to know how some traders operate during their trading day. I am moreso interested to hear from traders who derive an income from the markets and do so not by investing some of their millions into blue chips an reaping dividends and steady profits.

Whether the trader scalps forex for everyday profits and dabbles in the some equities or whether he/she trades the SPI and and also trend trades while writting puts and calls off these short or long trends he/she follows. How many hours a day this person may trade for or research or if it varies from day to day. Also if they are happy with their choice of 'trading for a living' or if it is alot harder and stressfull then what they first thought.

Basically if someone wants to suss out what it would be like to work as an engineer for a living or a plumber etc you can do work experince and you can speak with lots of people openly about life in these professions. With trading for a living though it is hard to find people to talk to it about or get an idea what it would be like and learn of the rigours they go through during the day. 

*I started this thread so people who traded for a living and derived an income from the market could share their experiences and offer an insight to others who might like the idea of trading for a living or those who might be currently on a rigorous journey of knowledge and skill building so they one day could do the same.*

Cheers


----------



## ChaosHedge (5 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

After reading the recent posts encouraging silent members to post more often, I thought I'd make an effort to become more active.

I'm interested to hear how people have made the transition from a 'day job' to trading for a living.

I try to spend a couple hours each night studying & SIM trading futures, and most recently European bond futures. One issue I'm finding is that 2 -3 hours per night is not sufficient to research recent news events, charts, plan some trades, and then wait for the price action. (I have been looking at short term moves, mostly 1min & 5min charts)

So my question is: If you were starting over and had 2 hours per night available, what are some pros & cons for a End-of-day style vs a day-trader style.

For example, EOD data appears to be cheaper (or free) but then holding positions overnight increases risk.

Being a complete novice, any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## PurePA (5 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



aramz said:


> Basically if someone wants to suss out what it would be like to work as an engineer for a living or a plumber etc you can do work experince and you can speak with lots of people openly about life in these professions. With trading for a living though it is hard to find people to talk to it about or get an idea what it would be like and learn of the rigours they go through during the day.




After reading this thread, it seems to me that some people are not yet aware what is really going on in trading. Trading in the real world is totally different than what the media or mainstream shoves down our throats. I believe that it would beneficial to first properly contextualise trading because it some of the questions being posed in thread are context depended, and hence if the presumed context is wrong, then the questions being posed and the answers are to some extent meaningless. 

When you sit down at a card table, you know who are the good players and who the amateur/hobbiests are in the first or second round of play. You’re not really going to make money a lot of money from the pros, but the amateurs come and go in steady streams. Amateurs who play loosly and passively pay the bills, so to speak. At first glance, it seems logical that it is this way in trading also. Pros don't really make money from other pros. Pros make money from amateurs. Pros set up shop here and there and trade various intruments, but they probably won't extract money and show a net gain from other good professional operations. Pros make money when amateurs lose money. 

Amateurs lose money by: 1) making technical mistakes, 2) making emotional mistakes, 3) not knowing the game rules, 4) making trade mechanics errors. List all the ways amateurs lose money? They buy down, blow stops, buy too much for their nerves and get too emotional, take random trades, get impatient, take a shot when the odds do not favor their play, general lack of planning, general lack of understanding and experience, general craziness.

In order for a growing number of Pros to continue to make money, fresh greedy amateurs who believe they can beat the market in short order, who have no ideas of the odds involved, are necessary. Some do so with thought, applying the principles learned in other careers. Others attempt a more haphazzard and reckless approach, which is all the more better for the pro. By the way many portfolio managers and bank traders are also amateurs who contribute to the pot -- especially in a long term bear market. Now, more than ever, people from all over the world have access to the markets. So instead of reading threads on developing “holy grail”, start seeing Pros from this context, and then you’ll realise that discussions on defining traders as full-time vs part time, or retail vs professional (institutional traders) is somewhat meaningless. 

In terms of daily routines, it is a very individual thing, depend on your level of awareness of your own psychological weaknesses. For example, someone might read all the news and what happened in other markets, etc, and over-intellectualise everything and thus introduce new elements into trading which will translate into second guessing of what the price does. For some it might be better to be removed from the market because any sharp intraday reactions in the general market will scare them out of trades. 

The bottom line is that life as a trader is once again a very individual thing, there is not black and white or right or wrong answer. You have to find out for yourself what it is like to live like a trader, because lots of people will paint you a rosy picture and that’s not the case at all. Let me assure you that if trading would be as easy as some people would like you to believe, then everyone would be rich. Those who sell trading courses and/or newlettters have figured that out a long time ago, that’s why they show you trades in hindsight vision. 

That’s how trading is in the real world, amateurs vs pros. The reality is that trading is a form of professional gambling. Amateurs just don’t get it, and it is manifested in their crowd behavior on which the pros capitalise. Once  you understand all of the above, and I don’t me just intellectually, but rather internalise it so it becomes your automatic thought process, then your focus will be on how to capitalise on what’s happening in the markets, following the volatily, and focusing on thing like that and actualy building the structure and frequency of your routines around that. 

As a trader you have to constantly adapt and think for yourself. You have be humble about your weaknesses and flaws (we all have them), and instead of sweeping htem under the carpet you have to be fully aware of them so you don’t become part of the crowd. You need to be able to observe both, the crowd and yourself. Not many people can do it. If you want to be a very good trader then trading become as a mirror of your personal development, and but unfortunately that’s not how people see trading. I wish you all the best.

Sorry about the typos


----------



## minwa (5 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> You’re not really going to make money a lot of money from the pros, but the amateurs come and go in steady streams. Amateurs who play loosly and passively pay the bills, so to speak. At first glance, it seems logical that it is this way in trading also. Pros don't really make money from other pros. Pros make money from amateurs. Pros set up shop here and there and trade various intruments, but they probably won't extract money and show a net gain from other good professional operations.




Great (first) post but I have to point out that point isn't true. Read up on some trading legends stories. They blow up millions/tens of millions. Where do you think that money goes ? Mostly to other pros. Most people consider people Jesse Livermore a pro. Yet he lost everything 2 times or something - that money has to go somewhere.

Lot of exalted hedge funds have big draw downs - that money also has to go somewhere, most likely not towards the amateurs. Lots of pro hedge funds close down due to large losses.

If pros don't make money from pros that means pros do not have big draw downs or losses at all.


----------



## skyQuake (5 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



minwa said:


> Great (first) post but I have to point out that point isn't true. Read up on some trading legends stories. They blow up millions/tens of millions. Where do you think that money goes ? Mostly to other pros. Most people consider people Jesse Livermore a pro. Yet he lost everything 2 times or something - that money has to go somewhere.
> 
> Lot of exalted hedge funds have big draw downs - that money also has to go somewhere, most likely not towards the amateurs. Lots of pro hedge funds close down due to large losses.
> 
> If pros don't make money from pros that means pros do not have big draw downs or losses at all.




+1

I would even go as far to say that pros fight other 'pros' all the time: predatory algos, squeezes, moving your server closer to the exchange... If you're a $2bil fund, you can't make money fleecing mum and dad investors. You gotta hit other whales whether actively or passively. 

And as a final though, this only applies to Futs and FX which are 0sum. Equities are not 0sum so there's less cutthroat action.


----------



## beachlife (5 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



ChaosHedge said:


> After reading the recent posts encouraging silent members to post more often, I thought I'd make an effort to become more active.
> 
> I'm interested to hear how people have made the transition from a 'day job' to trading for a living.
> 
> ...




Just as trading live is a completely different mindset to trading SIM, trading without the safety net of a regular wage is completely different mind games to trading with it.  Its easy to take a loss knowing a pay check is coming next week, very different to taking one knowing its your capital that is gone, especially if you have to answer to a spouse!

I dont agree that anything has to be zero sum.  I buy at $10 and sell for $12.  The person that bought at $12 then sells for $14.  We both won.  The loss comes to someone at the end of the trend, but not everyone.

Forget about amatures vs pros, finding an edge etc.  They all set you into a win loss mindset and everyone wants to win, so you will be more likely to hold losers and hope to win.  I prefer to think of myself as just following the others.  Dont try and beat the market, just follow it.  Our trades are so small that the pros dont even know we are there, and probably dont care.

For me the idea of day trading is just dumb.  As someone who has spent my whole working life in front of a screen, day trading is the last  thing I would ever want to do.  The only way I trade short time frames is with a script so I dont have to be there.  End of day gives you time to do other things.  Plus Larry Williams reckons its a dumb idea...good enough for me.  Read this http://www.rb-trading.com/article10.html  Believe that triple digit annual returns are possible with an end of day system.

Forget about the prestige of being able to say you are a futures trader.  Decide what you want to trade, stocks, currency, index, commodities, bonds etc and then choose the type of instrument (shares, cfds, fx, options, futures) that is best suited to your account size.

Dont confuse risk with probability.  There is no more risk in holding over night if you position size correctly.  There is a higher probability of a gap for example, but also a possibiliy that the gap is in your favour.  


For your 2 hours per day, set up a watch list of say the asx top 20 and your favourite commodities, index whatever, and go over every chart every night, back test, prove your system, then go live with an account size that allows you to take losses that you are comfortable to take.  Forget SIM, it doesnt prepare your emotions for the loss of real money.

 from someone that has had a lot of expensive lessons in the past.  Good luck.


----------



## DeepState (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*

Hi

From the outset, I would not approach the question of EOD versus intra-day.  I believe that the following questions are the most pertinent to answer:

1. How am I going to make money from the market?
2. Do I have any proof that this is the case?
3. Why will it persist?

The answer to the first question is wide open.  You can make money buy-hold or trading by the micro-second.  In equities, bonds and...my favourite...frozen orange juice.

The next two require a degree of proof.  You can choose to have no proof ("Just 'cause"), or you can move it up the chain.  It's entirely up to you as to what level of evidence you require or are satisfied with.

When you are ready to operationalize, all sorts of behavioural matters come to the fore.  These generally subtract value.  I find the following from Morningstar (Kimmel, 2014, via Forbes) instructive.  Investors as a whole totally suck at timing markets.  If all they did was not looked at markets, the aggregate would have materially beaten the buy-hold outcome.  This survey goes back several years and previous vintages show the same pattern.  We suck, as a cohort.  It is largely behavioral things which lead to selling low and buying high.  These are confirmed in fMRI studies and evident in many other ways than displayed below.  It is a serious matter:




If you should come to the conclusion that hi freq trading is your thing, then you might possibly need to assess the odds of this style being successful.  This is an extract from a very significant study (Barber and Odean, 2000) which examined a the trading records of a major US brokerage house in the US.  You can think of it as examination of anonymous records from Westpac Securities.  It shows that, on average, trading does not add gross value relative to those who trade least.  It just chews up a ton of trading costs, making the brokers rich (and thus their owners and execs) and providing liquidity to demanders in the market:





Good points and counters have been raised.  I'll just add my few cents worth and maybe we'll have fifty cents between all of us when this is done.

Some contests are zero sum.  These are like futures, FFX etc.  For every buyer, there is a seller.  The positions net to zero.  For every winner there is a matching loser.  The system is closed and then expenses are taken out too.

In FFX, the professionals profit at the expense of retail and the commercials.

In agricultural and consumable commodities, the loser is the producer.  Professionals pick up the premium.  Retail is a side issue.

When it comes to purchasing physical equities, it is not zero sum.  It is possible for everyone to win (as an aggregate, at least) and lose.  However, the question of who is the patsy changes to ask who does relatively well or not as the market is zero sum relative to the average.  If other words, the market might rise 10%.  In aggregate, wealth rose by the increase in market value.  Yet some will not do as well and some will do better.  These sum to zero, and then expenses get taken out.  In this contest, there is a certain demographic of investors/traders in retail who get creamed.  Other sorts of restrictions (some caused by the clients themselves) also cause some insto money to be constrained to the detriment of their own investment clients. In Australia, domestic insto does well in aggregate but with significant dispersion, retail is flatline in aggregate and foreign insto loses out.

Just to be clear, it is important to note that all insto/pro is succeeding at the expense of retail etc..is not what I am claiming. Within each classification is a lot of internecine rivalry.

The final point I'll make on this note relates to risk management.  You have to survive if you want to have any chance of prosperity.  Portfolio management and solvency management are vital if you are to allow your money making ideas to show through.

And my actual final point is that: Things generally don't turn out the way we expect.  Heaps of what I/we believe to be true right now will eventually be falsified.  Investments is a contest of beliefs.  If your beliefs happen to be closer to the mark for the times, you will do alright.  Markets don't stay still and change in nature all the time.  Question: what way will you develop to evolve your beliefs most effectively?


----------



## PurePA (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



minwa said:


> Great (first) post but I have to point out that point isn't true. Read up on some trading legends stories. They blow up millions/tens of millions. Where do you think that money goes ? Mostly to other pros. Most people consider people Jesse Livermore a pro. Yet he lost everything 2 times or something - that money has to go somewhere.
> 
> Lot of exalted hedge funds have big draw downs - that money also has to go somewhere, most likely not towards the amateurs. Lots of pro hedge funds close down due to large losses.
> 
> If pros don't make money from pros that means pros do not have big draw downs or losses at all.




I'm not really sure where you got the idea from that pros do not have losses at all or that they need to have big drawdowns. There is a huge difference between a loss from 'limited risk trade' and 'big drawdown'. The former is a function of cost of doing a business, the latter is an amateurish psychological  errors and lack of risk control. 

Account sizes are totally irrelevant as there are some people trading millions of dollars each day yet they wouldn't  be able to trade their way out of a wet bag even if their life would depend on it. For example institutions' income is derived from clients management fees, and not from P&L. On the other hand there are traders who trade much smaller accounts but their income is strictly dependent on the results they produce. The latter, by my definition are the real pros, they need to be continually on their toes in order to stay in the business because their living depends on their results and not on some management fees from clients. Therefore they assume totally responsibility for what ever happens to them in the market, they never blame the market because they understand that the biggest variable in the market is the trader himself. 

The reason why you and skyQuake disagree with me is because you’re both still not fully developed as professional traders, and hence at this stage you yet don’t know what you don’t know. Once you’ll learn more about trading, then you’ll realise that at this stage of your trading development you are not yet at the level to be able to understand the hidden insights in the stories of Market Wizards or Jesse Livermore. Reading it and actually understanding it are two entirely different concepts. 

I’ll leave you both with Jesse’s own quote, *“A man has to guard against many things, and most of all against himself”* . . . . and I’ll let others to interpret the hidden meaning in Jesse's quote instead of me doing it (I've already done it indirectly in my first post).


----------



## PurePA (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



DeepState said:


> Hi
> 
> From the outset, I would not approach the question of EOD versus intra-day.  I believe that the following questions are the most pertinent to answer:
> 
> ...




Very good points. 




DeepState said:


> Some contests are zero sum.  These are like futures, FFX etc.  For every buyer, there is a seller.  The positions net to zero.  For every winner there is a matching loser.  The system is closed and then expenses are taken out too.
> 
> In FFX, the professionals profit at the expense of retail and the commercials.
> 
> ...




These days it is actually not that simple to define what is zero sum and what isn’t. These days there is lots of hedging going on, plus there are many synthetic positions in the market (I’m referring to international markets), so at the end of the day all the money goes into the pot like at a poker table, and that’s a good thing as it gives everyone an equal opportunity. 




DeepState said:


> The final point I'll make on this note relates to risk management.  You have to survive if you want to have any chance of prosperity.  Portfolio management and solvency management are vital if you are to allow your money making ideas to show through.




Finally someone gets it, and you actually seem to genuinely understand what you''re taking talking about. Congratulations. 




DeepState said:


> And my actual final point is that: Things generally don't turn out the way we expect.  Heaps of what I/we believe to be true right now will eventually be falsified.  Investments is a contest of beliefs.  If your beliefs happen to be closer to the mark for the times, you will do alright.  Markets don't stay still and change in nature all the time.  Question: what way will you develop to evolve your beliefs most effectively?




Even a better insight, you’re absolutely spot on. People don’t trade the markets, but they actually trade their beliefs about the market. You’ve made an excellent point by posing the question* “what way will you develop to evolve your beliefs most effectively?”*  . . . People often think that just having a method with positive expectancy will solve their trading challenges. That's a common mistake, although having positive expectancy is a prerequisite. You’ve absolutely nailed it by pointing out that *"investing is a contest of beliefs"*, and that one needs to evolve his/her beliefs. Many people don’t realise that beliefs are filters to reality, they just keep on searching for the holy grail in the wrong places.


----------



## IFocus (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



beachlife said:


> Forget SIM, it doesnt prepare your emotions for the loss of real money.





I always cringe when ever I read this.

SIM is the most important thing you can do in trading there is nothing else that is even comes close to being as important.

Repeat SIM is the most important thing you can do.

SIM will show if you have a trading method that *may* work.
SIM will show in what *market conditions you trading method may work*.....(this alone will determine your results not your genus.)
SIM will help you determine when your trading method *will not work*. (sounds crazy but most will not recognise this really important for your results)
SIM will help you determine a basic idea what size account you will need. (Having said that I   know people who have blown up $200k accounts they didn't SIM)
SIM will help you build good decision making processors.
SIM will help you start to see what a loss looks like and what a profit looks like. (sounds dumb I know but people don't like losses there is a learning that they are part of the game)
SIM will help you build a psychology to deal with trading, making easy profits will hurt your psychology as much as making easy losses.

Jumping into trading with real money with out doing the above will lead to bad habits and delays in your development as a successive trader.

Note after meeting 1000's of wantabe retail traders over 15 to 20 years have only known of maybe a 1/2 a dozen who make a living full time (longer than say 3 years) trading.
When I say full time traders I am not including people semi or full time retired.


----------



## minwa (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



IFocus said:


> I always cringe when ever I read this.
> 
> *SIM is the most important thing you can do in trading there is nothing else that is even comes close to being as important.
> 
> Repeat SIM is the most important thing you can do.*




Ummm I think actually trading is more important than SIM. If you're just trading for fun, maybe. If you actually want real dollars coming into your account, SIM will not work.

You can keep on repeating SIM for the rest of your life, let's see how you will pay the bills, I have a feeling the gas company will reject your SIM money


----------



## PurePA (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



minwa said:


> Ummm I think actually trading is more important than SIM. If you're just trading for fun, maybe. If you actually want real dollars coming into your account, SIM will not work.
> 
> You can keep on repeating SIM for the rest of your life, let's see how you will pay the bills, I have a feeling the gas company will reject your SIM money




I have to agree with minwa on this one, and I'd go as far as to say that SIM can actually give one a false sense of confidence because all of the emotions are removed, and that’s where majority of people begin to choke. 

There is a difference between SIM trading vs trading real money. There is a difference between trading real money with success while having some additional income safety net vs successful trading without any additional income safety net. 

Nevertheless, as IFocus points out, trading on a sim  definitely has its benefits in terms of back/forward testing, helping one to determine expectancy and distribution of R-multiples, but in my opinion that’s where its advantages seem to end, and am quite confident in claiming that only very few people will be able to replicate their SIM trading success with real trading account. Fear and greed cannot be underestimated.


----------



## skyQuake (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> I'm not really sure where you got the idea from that pros do not have losses at all or that they need to have big drawdowns. There is a huge difference between a loss from 'limited risk trade' and 'big drawdown'. The former is a function of cost of doing a business, the latter is an amateurish psychological  errors and lack of risk control.




The latter is generally the erosion of an edge/change in market dynamics or simply variance. (Assuming there was an edge in the first place)



> Account sizes are totally irrelevant as there are some people trading millions of dollars each day yet they wouldn't  be able to trade their way out of a wet bag even if their life would depend on it.




Pretty sure thats not how it works. How did they get millions of dollars to trade each day in the first place???



> For example institutions' income is derived from clients management fees, and not from P&L. On the other hand there are traders who trade much smaller accounts but their income is strictly dependent on the results they produce. The latter, by my definition are the real pros, they need to be continually on their toes in order to stay in the business because their living depends on their results and not on some management fees from clients. Therefore they assume totally responsibility for what ever happens to them in the market, they never blame the market because they understand that the biggest variable in the market is the trader himself.




Those are 2 pretty naive assumptions: Instos don't outperform and all they do is make money from management fees.

Finally the issue about zero sum markets - its really quite simple for retail traders. FX and futs are zero sums. Equities are not. Hedging is irrelevant as that pertains to portfolio rather than the market


----------



## PurePA (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skyQuake said:


> The latter is generally the erosion of an edge/change in market dynamics or simply variance. (Assuming there was an edge in the first place)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The institutions in stock market get funds from IRA in the US, in Australian through superannuation, and the institutions charge clients management fees even when the fund is losing money. Most funds are required to be invested in the market and so then cannot just sit on cash. For example in US the funds are focusing on beating the SPX, because they compare their own performance with the SPX. 

As an example, say if SP500 is down 20% for the year, and the fund if down only 15%, then the fund basks in the glory of beating the SPX by 5% for that year. However the fund is not too keen to publish the fact that they actually lost 15% of clients money as it wouldn’t  sound that attractive for investors. They attract money because of their size and recognition. Obviously it is much harder to trade large amounts of money without moving the stock market, but nevertheless there are so many so called “professional traders” who just keep on losing people’s money and get away with it because the clients pays for their mistakes. 

It’s like with taxation, some politicians just recklessly spend people’s money without having to feel the pain and accountability since the tax payers foots the bill and pays for the bureaucratic mistakes. These days in many Western countries people by law have regularly save money into some retirement schemes, so lots of institutions trading capital flows in this way.

When it comes to FX, the biggest players are banks in Europe and UK, they got to convert huge sums of money on daily basis for their clients no matter what. Some bank’s dealing desks are actually creating net losses for the bank, which I find rather mind boggling when one compares the exchange rates at local bank vs the spread with STP or ECN brokers. The banks basically have a license to steal from anyone who want to convert money through them. I’d love to trade for a bank :- ) 

The thing is that when it comes to the psychology of persuasion, people have a tendency to give status and power to anyone who claims to have knowledge then they do, while failing to start looking more deeply into the psychological games we all play. 
Obviously not all institutional traders are not like that, there are some really brilliant ones, but unfortunately it is much rarer that the mainstream public is lead to believe. 

It reminds of a joke I’veheard from Nassim Taleb; 
_A trader listened to the firm’s “chief” economist’s predictions about gold, then lost a bundle. The trader was asked to leave the firm. He then angrily asked his boss who was firing him: “Why do you fire me alone and not the economist? He is too responsible for the loss.” The Boss: “You idiot, we are not firing you for losing money; we are firing you for listening to the economist!.”_


----------



## skc (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> After reading this thread, it seems to me that some people are not yet aware what is really going on in trading. Trading in the real world is totally different than what the media or mainstream shoves down our throats. I believe that it would beneficial to first properly contextualise trading because it some of the questions being posed in thread are context depended, and hence if the presumed context is wrong, then the questions being posed and the answers are to some extent meaningless.




Hi PurePA... are you a full time trader? If so what instrument do you trade and how long have you been doing it?

Also, what does PA stand for?


----------



## beachlife (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



IFocus said:


> SIM will show if you have a trading method that *may* work.
> SIM will show in what *market conditions you trading method may work*.....(this alone will determine your results not your genus.)
> SIM will help you determine when your trading method *will not work*. (sounds crazy but most will not recognise this really important for your results)
> SIM will help you determine a basic idea what size account you will need. (Having said that I   know people who have blown up $200k accounts they didn't SIM)
> ...




Manual backtesting will cover all of these.



IFocus said:


> SIM will help you build a psychology to deal with trading, making easy profits will hurt your psychology as much as making easy losses.
> 
> .




Only live trading will bring out real emotions and real reactions to them.


----------



## minwa (6 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> I'm not really sure where you got the idea from that pros do not have losses at all or that they need to have big drawdowns. There is a huge difference between a loss from 'limited risk trade' and 'big drawdown'. The former is a function of cost of doing a business, the latter is an amateurish psychological  errors and lack of risk control.
> 
> Account sizes are totally irrelevant as there are some people trading millions of dollars each day yet they wouldn't  be able to trade their way out of a wet bag even if their life would depend on it. For example institutions' income is derived from clients management fees, and not from P&L. On the other hand there are traders who trade much smaller accounts but their income is strictly dependent on the results they produce. The latter, by my definition are the real pros, they need to be continually on their toes in order to stay in the business because their living depends on their results and not on some management fees from clients. Therefore they assume totally responsibility for what ever happens to them in the market, they never blame the market because they understand that the biggest variable in the market is the trader himself.
> 
> ...




Definition of pro defined by the IRS is here: "Professional traders tend to have extremely high trade volumes. Many accountants use a minimum of 1,000 trades a year as a guideline, but others consider an average of 10 trades a day, or about 3,000 trades a year, to be a typical starting point. In addition to having a high volume of trades, professional traders also generally don't hang on to their acquisitions very long. They often buy and sell a position on the same day." http://www.investmentnews.com/article/20110417/REG/304179997

We were not talking about hidden insights from books. It is laid out clearly most of them have big losses. When George Soros "broke" the Bank of England and made $3billion pounds or something like that did you think he was taking money from an amateur trader at the Bank ?

If you're going to make assumptions on trading abilities  and "developments as professional traders" then I have to make the assumption that you are not at that level too from your recommendation in the other post in the forex thread.


----------



## PurePA (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



minwa said:


> Definition of pro defined by the IRS is here: "Professional traders tend to have extremely high trade volumes. Many accountants use a minimum of 1,000 trades a year as a guideline, but others consider an average of 10 trades a day, or about 3,000 trades a year, to be a typical starting point. In addition to having a high volume of trades, professional traders also generally don't hang on to their acquisitions very long. They often buy and sell a position on the same day." http://www.investmentnews.com/article/20110417/REG/304179997
> 
> We were not talking about hidden insights from books. It is laid out clearly most of them have big losses. When George Soros "broke" the Bank of England and made $3billion pounds or something like that did you think he was taking money from an amateur trader at the Bank ?
> 
> If you're going to make assumptions on trading abilities  and "developments as professional traders" then I have to make the assumption that you are not at that level too from your recommendation in the other post in the forex thread.




It seems to me that you didn’t get the gist of my first post where I used the metaphor of professional gamblers (or card players) vs amateurs, because after all, professional gambling is similar to trading in terms of having an edge, money management, plan, and emotional control.

 If your definition of a pro comes from IRS then obviously it is going to be different from other definitions.
In your reference to my post in the Forex thread, then not everyone (including me) believes that your recommendations are agreeable with everyone. And that’s actually a good thing, because peoples’ beliefs are what make prices move, and so the more people disagree the more it reminds me of the heard mentality. When it comes to public forums one has to be very careful about what is fact, what is an just an opinion, and what is an opinion presented as a fact. Experienced traders know what to filter out, but newbies don’t, and it seems to me that there is so much misleading information on forums which only confuses newbies and extends their learning curve. 

Since you seem to believe to have more insights than me, which BTW is fine because I actually seek people with better insist than I have so I can pick their brains and adjust my perspective, then please explain to me how do I go about backtesting with ThinkorSwim, because if you won’t be able to do so then I’ll have to assume that you’re just misleading newbies. https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28523&p=828106#post828106

I’d appreciate if you’d show me and to the other poster how to use your advice in the real world, and how to get access to Thinkorswim backtester. If not, then unfortunately you’re the one at a level  where you don’t know what you don’t know, but you think that you do, which creates kind of a mental trap, hence you spread misleading recommendation while you're not even aware of it. I want to add that my posts are meant in a polite (chit chat) way and not a condescending way


----------



## PurePA (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



skc said:


> Hi PurePA... are you a full time trader? If so what instrument do you trade and how long have you been doing it?
> 
> Also, what does PA stand for?




I’m currently not trading, but am going back to trading fulltime, next year. Before moving to Australia I was trading Options on US markets. Since moving here I haven’t been trading, I find it hard to trade US markets from Australia due to time zone difference. Meanwhile am looking around other markets in Asian zones to see what others trade to get a better idea whether I should go back to options or start trading something else. I’m reluctant to switch to something else, I’ve been with options since around 2002. I’ll need to decide by end of this year. PA stands for Price Action.


----------



## DeepState (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> I’m currently not trading, but am going back to trading fulltime, next year. Before moving to Australia I was trading Options on US markets. Since moving here I haven’t been trading, I find it hard to trade US markets from Australia due to time zone difference. Meanwhile am looking around other markets in Asian zones to see what others trade to get a better idea whether I should go back to options or start trading something else. I’m reluctant to switch to something else, I’ve been with options since around 2002. I’ll need to decide by end of this year. PA stands for Price Action.




You mentioned you started with options in 2002.  Were you investing/trading linear prior to this?  You weren't asked directly, so my interpretation of your statements on full time trading require disambiguation.  Although you plan to go back to full-time trading next year (why the wait?), were you full time throughout 2002 (or prior) to arrival in Oz...or otherwise?  Thanks and welcome.


----------



## beachlife (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> I’m currently not trading, but am going back to trading fulltime, next year. Before moving to Australia I was trading Options on US markets. Since moving here I haven’t been trading, I find it hard to trade US markets from Australia due to time zone difference. Meanwhile am looking around other markets in Asian zones to see what others trade to get a better idea whether I should go back to options or start trading something else. I’m reluctant to switch to something else, I’ve been with options since around 2002. I’ll need to decide by end of this year. PA stands for Price Action.




The aussie options market is a lot quieter now.  OptionsXpress will allow you to open an account here and trade US options and futs, but have a look at cfd's.  Leverage without the greeks.


----------



## IFocus (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



beachlife said:


> Manual backtesting will cover all of these.
> 
> 
> 
> Only live trading will bring out real emotions and real reactions to them.




For some one starting the answers are nope and nope.

Without prolonging this discussion on this aspect the issue is heighten state of arousal and poor decision making that comes from it. In psychology terms this then leads on from that to poor cognitive behaviours centre around trading decision.

There isn't a profession in the world that doesn't train to address these issues.

Most will brush aside this reasoning apparently trading is different  but the number that 95% of retail traders fail has been pretty close in my own experience even in a bull market its not far off the mark.


----------



## tech/a (7 July 2014)

Agree with the Galah

For a forum with supposedly full time traders on board there isn't a great deal of 
" this is how it is for me"
Lots of theory as to how you should succeed.

I want to know how they budget for TAX.
How much they withdraw for living expenses. 
How this affects their capitalization.
How their ability to obtain loans are affected.
What they trade.
What is their timeframe 
How they analyze their day to day trading.
How long do they spend at the screen.
What sort of initial investment they began with.
What sort of on going capital base do they try to maintain.
Why they choose to trade for a living.

I think it a very important that people learn HOW to trade.
Trust me when you've reached 50 will be a very handy way to
Generate extra cash/manage your own super or invest for passive
Income. With retirement slipping further away and age putting up
Barriers from employers----you'll be glad you can! It maybe the
Only job you can get for yourself.

A very worth while legacy to pass down in your family!


----------



## PurePA (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



beachlife said:


> The aussie options market is a lot quieter now.  OptionsXpress will allow you to open an account here and trade US options and futs, but have a look at cfd's.  Leverage without the greeks.




Thanks. Yeah, CFDs seem to be very good trading instrument for Australians, especially those with DMA and the leverage can be used to disperse risk through diversification and hedging.


----------



## nulla nulla (7 July 2014)

tech/a said:


> Agree with the Galah
> 
> For a forum with supposedly full time traders on board there isn't a great deal of
> " this is how it is for me"
> Lots of theory as to how you should succeed.




Many successful "live" traders don't post about their trading successes as they can't be bothered with the exposure to abuse and the clamoring for proof. Over the past 4-5 years I have gleaned a short list of the successful traders in this forum, simply from the quality of their posts. Some are trading smaller port folios in share size and value and some larger. Some are in currency, some in foreign indexes, some in futures and some in equities. Some use cfd shorts as a hedge against long trading and some just trade equities long. Some trade short term and some trade/invest for the long term. They may choose different markets/instruments but the successful traders all have common tools: Research, evaluation of risk/reward, cash management, self discipline and persistence. These are not qualities learned overnight but over many hours/days/months and years *and you will still make mistakes along the way*. The key is to recognize when your are wrong and act to stop any further losses.



tech/a said:


> I want to know how they budget for TAX.




Don't budget for tax, simply pay it as and when it falls due. if you are earning enough to incur tax, you are earning enough to pay it. Also weight your capital base to your SMSF. That way when you go to pension mode, your earnings are tax free.



tech/a said:


> How much they withdraw for living expenses.




Just under six figures per annum.




tech/a said:


> How this affects their capitalization.




The monthly draw down of living allowance from "Capital" doesn't impair the base capital. The draw down is less than the monthly capital return ensuring that the capital continues to grow. Worst case scenario is to have the capital grow at a rate only better than inflation or bank interest rates (after living expenses). Best case scenario is to have capital grow at a rate that out performs the fund managers (after living expenses).




tech/a said:


> How their ability to obtain loans are affected.




Since going full time with share trading as our prime source of income, obtaining "loans" is an issue. Our bank doesn't see income from dividends and capital gains (on buying/selling shares) as acceptable income for the purpose of determining "regular" income for the purpose of evaluating our capacity to pay back a loan.  Gotta laugh.




tech/a said:


> What they trade.




Shares listed with the ASX200. We watch for liquid shares, shares with volatility and a regular tradable spread.



tech/a said:


> What is their timeframe .




From same day to several months. Dividends and/or capital gains. Shorter term is better thasn longer term as the opportunity to reinvest/turnover capital is key.



tech/a said:


> How they analyze their day to day trading.




Daily excel/Lotus123 spread sheets that cover current positions, settlement dates (buy/sell payment) cash at bank and progressive performance. Also spreadsheets for each equity that we trade, an ongoing spreadsheet recording all trades in that share (buy/sell and dividends) to monitor our performance trading that share. This also helps evaluate market participation in that share and cut loose any share that underperforms or doesn't meet desirable risk/return levels. 




tech/a said:


> How long do they spend at the screen.




Roughly from 9:00am to 4:30pm although we do walk away from the screens from time to time, go out to lunch, shopping or a movie when the market is giving us the sh@#$. You also spend time while away from the screens researching, reading reports, reading the newspapers, watching business programs on TV and being alert for the release of statistics etc. 



tech/a said:


> What sort of initial investment they began with.




$2,000.00 in 1996. Invested in Burns Philp at $0.13 per share.



tech/a said:


> What sort of on going capital base do they try to maintain.








tech/a said:


> Why they choose to trade for a living.




Because we realized that trading full time represented the best return on our equity and time, than running a business or working for someone else.




tech/a said:


> I think it a very important that people learn HOW to trade.
> Trust me when you've reached 50 will be a very handy way to
> Generate extra cash/manage your own super or invest for passive
> Income. With retirement* "getting closer and closer"* and age putting up
> ...




My bold, couldn't agree with you more. Start putting in the hours now, watch and learn. As per TH "learn to recognize your mother in the crowd" and start testing your observations with live trading. *Don't panic!* And as always, do your own research and good luck.


----------



## PurePA (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



DeepState said:


> You mentioned you started with options in 2002.  Were you investing/trading linear prior to this?



Investing yes, but not trading. Been with options for about a decade since 2002, paid my tuition the hard way, just like everyone else   . . . because options are very deceptive. 



DeepState said:


> You weren't asked directly, so my interpretation of your statements on full time trading require disambiguation.  Although you plan to go back to full-time trading next year (why the wait?), were you full time throughout 2002 (or prior) to arrival in Oz...or otherwise?  Thanks and welcome.




From 2002 till arrival, at one stage addicted to it, I swear to God, it can be addictive, it is like a 3 dimensional chess and I just felled in love with options.

Why the wait? As I’ve indicated before:
A) the time zone difference is a pain in the butt, especially since doing spreads on Weeklies is what jacks up the returns, but with Weeklies one needs to be keep them on a very tight leash so it requires close monitoring. Doing spreads on monthly expirations and having a contingency orders in seems OK on a first sight, but during flash crashes it will do more harm than good. Will we have another flash crash? It is always a possibility.

B) inner conflict whether I should trade options or not since the time zone difference will remain a perpetual challenge when trading US markets

C) ASIC margin requirements screwed things up for many active option traders more details can be found at 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28564

and 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28523

D) relocating to Australia brought up with it other number of other unforeseen and unexpected challenges (of personal nature) and I had and still to some extent have other priorities in my life that need to be resolved first.

E) Having access to CFDs is something worthwhile of a serious consideration, and am thinking about using CFDs on US stocks for CANSLIM as it would be not require too much management, and would definitely eliminate many hassles with options. 

The funny thing is that some traders in US would love to have access to CFDs or they get up early to trade London FX sesions, while on the other hand some traders in Australia would love to have the advantages that US traders have. The trading landscape had changed a lot over the last couple of years, and so many new opportunities exists, and we're all so lucky to have access to all kinds of markets and trading platforms.


----------



## barney (7 July 2014)

nulla nulla said:


> Since going full time with share trading as our prime source of income, obtaining "loans" is an issue. *Our bank doesn't see income from dividends and capital gains (on buying/selling shares) as acceptable income *for the purpose of determining "regular" income for the purpose of evaluating our capacity to pay back a loan.  *Gotta laugh.*





Lol  ... I like that

You are obviously doing well Nulla  ... well done!


----------



## DeepState (7 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> C) ASIC margin requirements screwed things up for many active option traders




IG Markets, apparently Australia and the World's largest CFD Provider, offers the ability to sell outright.  Example for Stoxx 50:




They do not allow offsets for combos.  Everything is viewed as a set of single legs.

I am trading as an individual for this account with domestic domicile.

Thanks for the response to the questions.  Again, welcome.


----------



## minwa (8 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> E) Having access to CFDs is something worthwhile of a serious consideration, and am thinking about using CFDs on US stocks for CANSLIM as it would be not require too much management, and would definitely eliminate many hassles with options.




Hassles with options ? If you think they are a hassle then obviously you don't understand much of it, stick to trading stocks buddy.

Also CANSLIM is hardly Pure "Price Action".


----------



## skc (8 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



PurePA said:


> I’m currently not trading, but am going back to trading fulltime, next year. Before moving to Australia I was trading Options on US markets. Since moving here I haven’t been trading, I find it hard to trade US markets from Australia due to time zone difference. Meanwhile am looking around other markets in Asian zones to see what others trade to get a better idea whether I should go back to options or start trading something else. I’m reluctant to switch to something else, I’ve been with options since around 2002. I’ll need to decide by end of this year. PA stands for Price Action.




Thanks PA. Australia is a wonderful place to live, but it's timezone and geographical isolation is one of its drawbacks. 



nulla nulla said:


> Since going full time with share trading as our prime source of income, obtaining "loans" is an issue. Our bank doesn't see income from dividends and capital gains (on buying/selling shares) as acceptable income for the purpose of determining "regular" income for the purpose of evaluating our capacity to pay back a loan.  Gotta laugh.




I recently went through the process and me and my mortgage guy agreed that we just about broken the record for "most emails required to obtain a loan". It's not helped by the fact that my income is earned in company and family trust structure, and my wife being on maternity leave.


----------



## PurePA (8 July 2014)

*Re: Who trades fulltime?*



minwa said:


> Hassles with options ? If you think they are a hassle then obviously you don't understand much of it, stick to trading stocks buddy.
> 
> Also CANSLIM is hardly Pure "Price Action".




All propositions involve two things, they involve content and they involve context. So the distortion that you seem to experience has to do with the failure to properly identify the context. I’m not going to give any more energy into a forum through resisting things because I’d rather go after things that I desire. All the best with your trading.


----------



## tech/a (8 July 2014)

Thanks *Nulla* for your reply

The below is not directed at you but is a summary of pondering over the years.



tech/a said:


> Agree with the Galah
> 
> For a forum with supposedly full time traders on board there isn't a great deal of
> " this is how it is for me"
> Lots of theory as to how you should succeed.




I've been on this and other forums for 20 yrs. In that time I've seen far more who want to be full time traders than those who actually are.
I've looked at the appeal and as a business owner myself certainly like the appeal of no or little staff (I have 18-24),No pesky Clients (Have 100s) and very little overhead (I have plenty needing $200 K a month to B/E in fixed and variable overhead). But trading for a living certainly has draw backs.

Most wage earners and most Business owners only supply themselves with a job some a very well paid job,very few exceptional. Traders are very similar in their business ---in my experience--I know a few full time and know a few more who trade for extra income and Investment/Excess capital management---like myself.

I've asked these questions further to my own pondering and observations of others who seem to derive some if not all their income from trading---some of my thinking is below with my own questions.



> I want to know how they budget for TAX.




As said if your profitable you'll pay tax. I personally not only want to minimize tax but need to minimize tax,I have many ways of minimizing tax while building asset. One of the best and most profitable is being able to claim my interest on money earning machinery leases and depreciation of those machines. The boost to earning is dramatic.
Particularly when you have quite a few. This is something not available to a trader.
If your a great trader you'll earn over the $180K a year threshold so you'll be paying around 45% tax with little to claim.Not only that but you'll be pre paying it quarterly going forward so if your not budgeting for that and just winging it------Not ideal and I'm surprised the really successful guys haven't made mention of it????




> How much they withdraw for living expenses.




I know personally my wife and I draw a healthy salary and always have. One of the biggest mistakes in small business is *NOT* paying yourself FIRST! My $180k return trading wouldn't come close to covering our yearly living expenses. Would need a return of at learst twice that. So say $400k a year



> How this affects their capitalization.




So what happens in a year where I don't make that or heaven forbid have a losing year. My lifestyle would be severely impacted at best and Id be out of business at worst! I figure that you'd need at least $200k to weather storms before you opened your trading business---for no other reason but to keep liquid. This is without starting capital for trading. So Id need to return $400k a year with a $200k buffer. I figure Id need $100-200K for Futures margin and twice that if attempting to trade stock.
So to start my trading business LIKE ANY BUSINESS I figure Id need at least $300k and more likely double that.

*After all* what sort of business return would you expect from ANY business that set you back $500K ish.
Rule of thumb is 30% on capital invested.




> How their ability to obtain loans are affected.




To me a biggy. In my view if you want to be financially independent you either have an asset base which eliminates your need for out side help eg renting OR you have an income flow that generates a consistent return at low cost. Trading *CAN* do one Investing can do the other but again not without a solid original capital base. If you want a loan for something you'll need to be able to prove equity and serviceability---two things very difficult to provide if your a full time trader---not impossible but difficult. A conventional Business can be a massive asset. Trading businesses are of little or no value to financial institutions.



> What they trade.




See above on required capital bases.



> What is their time frame




Im of the opinion those with smaller bases (100-200k) will need to be discretionary day or very short term traders.
Larger capital bases could have the luxury of longer time frame and setting for dividends.But good dividends will require a solid stake in any company paying decent returns.



> How they analyze their day to day trading.




I cant see how a fundamental trader can trade on a day trading basis.So longer term fundamental traders would need a much larger capital base. Technical trading in a discretionary manner gives flexibility and much tighter risk management. Systematic/System traders will also need larger capital bases even if they return 50% a year which year in year out Id say is impossible to mere mortals! Mind you very short term Methods can return 50% on capital at risk in a single session!



> How long do they spend at the screen.




Id have thought really successful traders would not need to spend many hrs at all at the screen. Those i know certainly dont.



> What sort of initial investment they began with



.

See above for the reasoning to this question. While businesses can be built from virtually nothing (I've done it myself) Its a really tough road and one I think less than 1% who embark on a trading full time life style will or can achieve.



> What sort of on going capital base do they try to maintain.




Again see above. Maintenance would mean making up any losses and the cost of living. Not that easy!



> Why they choose to trade for a living.




*I can see the lure but I also know the reality*



> I think it a very important that people learn HOW to trade.
> Trust me when you've reached 50 will be a very handy way to
> Generate extra cash/manage your own super or invest for passive
> Income. With retirement slipping further away and age putting up
> ...




To me a much more realistic goal for traders to aim and *actually achieve.*


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## kid hustlr (8 July 2014)

Could not agree more with tech's post above.

tech, it has been hinted in several threads before by both myself and skc the difficulties and pitfalls a full time trader must deal with TH also. I've said it before and I'll say it again but there is NOTHING wrong with working a full time gig and then doing some trading on the side for extra income on a longer term basis. In fact it may very well be the route I choose very soon.

In regards to your questions it will vary depending on the markets they trade, the amount of capital they have, their proffered style of trading etc. In *my experience with the full time traders I know, they:*

- trade intraday/very short term
- Have done considerably better in the past than they have done in recent months
- trade discretionarily all be it with a variety of styles
- are in a position to be able to handle periods of not getting paid.

I also know of some VERY successful traders who make serious money. They put in SERIOUS hours, work very hard, live a stressful lifestyle but its a choice they have made and appear happy with.

Ultimately my view is: The dream is achievable but in most cases difficult to reach. I'm not going to hate on anyone who gives it a go because that's what life is about but ultimately the vast majority will fail, if not because of the difficulty of being a full time trader in itself but also because of the plethora of life barrier(s) mentioned.


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## beachlife (8 July 2014)

Does anyone here believe that a living can be made from end of day trading or is the consensus that only high frequency intra day trading is the way?


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## tech/a (8 July 2014)

beachlife said:


> Does anyone here believe that a living can be made from end of day trading or is the consensus that only high frequency intra day trading is the way?




You'll need a LOT more capital.---In my opinion.
If you want or need to make $80 K or more a year.


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## beachlife (8 July 2014)

tech/a said:


> You'll need a LOT more capital.---In my opinion.
> If you want or need to make $80 K or more a year.




How much?

Based on what?


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## pavilion103 (8 July 2014)

beachlife said:


> Does anyone here believe that a living can be made from end of day trading or is the consensus that only high frequency intra day trading is the way?




From my (limited) experience, I don't think that it has to come from high frequency intraday trading. 
With size, I could see myself doing this trading the first couple of hours of the FTSE. 

Heck, if you captures 2 x 40 point moves per week with 4 contracts even thats almost $6,000 for the week (assuming all other profits/losses cancel out). 

I think the main psychological (and maybe initially, practical) consideration is the lack of consistency of profits. 

But there would be weeks when you'd easily make 200 points x 4 contracts = $12,000.


I don't care what anyone says. This is an achievable way to make a living. I have zero doubt. 
And I'm talking about making more than $60,000-80,000. 


It isn't the most secure and conventional way but you could make it work if you were willing to. 




End of day I dunno. 
You'd need a large capital base for stocks if you were making a 20% return p.a (if you can even make that return!). 
$400,000 to make $80,000.  

I wouldn't do futures end of day because of the difficulty in managing risk. 
But I'd have position trades running in a semi-passive way.


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## kid hustlr (8 July 2014)

beachlife said:


> Does anyone here believe that a living can be made from end of day trading or is the consensus that only high frequency intra day trading is the way?




I think it can be done from end of day trading.

I think it's all relative to capital though. The guy who makes 250k a year trading intra day with a small capital base is a much better trader than the old guy sitting @ home with 5 mill in his super fund collecting 250k a year in dividends and claiming to be a trader.


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## pavilion103 (8 July 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> I think it can be done from end of day trading.
> 
> I think it's all relative to capital though. The guy who makes 250k a year trading intra day with a small capital base is a much better trader than the old guy sitting @ home with 5 mill in his super fund collecting 250k a year in dividends and claiming to be a trader.




There is also the tradeoff of time commitment. 

It depends what someone means by trading full time. 

Do they want to be at a screen for 10-12 hours per day?
Or do they want to trade in a way that requires far less time commitment at the screen?

It depends what we are talking about here.


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## beachlife (8 July 2014)

I am talking about trading being the only source of income.


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## kid hustlr (8 July 2014)

beachlife said:


> I am talking about trading being the only source of income.




As was I, and as I said I think it can be done.


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## skyQuake (8 July 2014)

Trading for a firm deals with the problem fairly well. 
- Your capital becomes (near) unlimited
- Your living expenses do not affect your capital base
- There is arguably less pressure than trading your own money
- More opportunities eg cap raisings/crossings/deals depending on the firm


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## tech/a (8 July 2014)

skyQuake said:


> Trading for a firm deals with the problem fairly well.
> - Your capital becomes (near) unlimited
> - Your living expenses do not affect your capital base
> - There is arguably less pressure than trading your own money
> - More opportunities eg cap raisings/crossings/deals depending on the firm




Yeh I can see the benefits but your just an employee with a budget.
If you can trade prop and you can pull $50k in a week helping out mates like TH
used to do I can't see why in a few years you wouldn't be in Vanuatu trading tax free.
You'd have enough to structure a damned good business.


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## minwa (9 July 2014)

beachlife said:


> Does anyone here believe that a living can be made from end of day trading or is the consensus that only high frequency intra day trading is the way?




My options account for last year, none of it is day trading.








This is the absolute deal breaker..You must have flexibility to deal with all sorts of markets to keep draw downs low. Being balanced long/short/sideways is the key (with a bias towards your directional bias), for EOD trading I only know how to achieve that through options. Some people call it portfolio balancing the Greeks and all that options mumbo jumbo, I don't really look at them but the underlying principle is the same. I will evaluate seriously at shutting down my account when they hit -10%.

I am not married so that really helps with the expenses. I am also studying at uni and work a part time job in a field that I would like to start business in future.

However FYI I also day(night) trade the ES. Although 80% of my day trading is only in the opening or closing range, first one or two hours and last hour. Only a little of the time does it run past US lunchtime due to strong trend and if that happens I stay up all night until the trade is closed if I am not doing anything the next day. Otherwise just trail stop and go to sleep  (or attempt - try sleeping when a strong trend runs in your favour...

Daytrading along with position trading I believe has the best balance to create a balanced stable sole trading income.

I shift capital allocations at start of every year. From my aggressive accounts to core position holdings, in other words I do not keep all the profits in my trading accounts, I only increase it depending on a fraction of the profits. I don't really want to call it investments, they are ready to sell at any moment. I write options on these when the markets are favourable and have puts on them when the markets are not.


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## tech/a (9 July 2014)

> This is the absolute deal breaker..You must have flexibility to deal with all sorts of markets to keep draw downs low. Being balanced long/short/sideways is the key (with a bias towards your directional bias),
> 
> Daytrading along with position trading I believe has the best balance to create a balanced stable sole trading income.




Some great points here.
Thanks Minwa


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## William B (6 August 2014)

I am a full time trader and really enjoy Forex. Forex is the largest online business in the world and very popular in the people.People want to make money and Forex is a good way to make good and solid money. But you need good understanding of Forex to be successful in Forex.


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## barney (6 August 2014)

William B said:


> I am a full time trader and really enjoy Forex. Forex is the largest online business in the world and very popular in the people.People want to make money and Forex is a good way to make good and solid money. But you need good understanding of Forex to be successful in Forex.




Welcome William ... Out of interest, what would you say are the most important ingredients for someone to become successful at Forex trading ..... also any light bulb moments that took you from non-profitable to profitable?

Cheers.


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## CanOz (6 August 2014)

barney said:


> Welcome William ... Out of interest, what would you say are the most important ingredients for someone to become successful at Forex trading ..... also any light bulb moments that took you from non-profitable to profitable?
> 
> Cheers.




William hey? William B as in Bot?


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## barney (6 August 2014)

CanOz said:


> William hey? William B as in Bot?




I was fishing also Can  .... Grammatical errors, full time trader, only second post  ..... mmmm


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## CanOz (6 August 2014)

barney said:


> I was fishing also Can  .... Grammatical errors, full time trader, only second post  ..... mmmm




Bit of a give away hey Barney ... lol


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## darkhorse70 (7 August 2014)

Hahaha ^


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