# Melbourne terrorists... terrorize this!



## Agentm (4 August 2009)

some somalian clowns allegedly thought it would great to start being super hero terrorists and take on the might of this great nation..


ASIO = 1       Al-Shabaab = 0


dip****s

we can always call on team america


----------



## Happy (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

400 police
6 months
hasty 18 search warrants because of leaked media

1 charged

Amazing achievement ?

What if they will delay arrest to * gather enough evidence * only to be too late to prevent it.

I know civil liberties, democracy and all that jazz, but if we don't change our democratic beyond reasonable doubt crap we might have some unnecessary trauma.


----------



## Agentm (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

they can hold them for some time before charging them..

been following them for many many months and i dont think the next few will be a picnic for them.

any out there who were not arrested will be interviewed by asio and closely and visibly followed 24/7 from how i understand it

they were planning on taking on a base, i would expect the army would have had some well trained personnel ready and waiting in any case


----------



## Buddy (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

Should have let them carry on. Watch them, then when they try it on..........summary execution of the lot.


----------



## Happy (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Agentm said:


> they can hold them for some time before charging them..
> 
> been following them for many many months and i dont think the next few will be a picnic for them.
> 
> ...





Pity that we let them in and now spend all the good money to prevent them from hurting us.

Money could be better spent on something else like more beds in hospitals, better care for elderly or just free dental care for low income families.


----------



## MRC & Co (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Happy said:


> Pity that we let them in and now spend all the good money to prevent them from hurting us.
> 
> Money could be better spent on something else like more beds in hospitals, better care for elderly or just free dental care for low income families.




Exactly.

WTF is the Government doing letting in so many, pardon the elitism, 'uneducated, trouble making nationalities' into our borders?

The Lebanese were bad enough, now the Africans, what next?  Whatever happened to Indian/Chinese educated students, Drs, Engineers?  I don't see why we let scum in, so they can turn our country into the same kind of things that happen back home for them.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



MRC & Co said:


> I don't see why we let scum in, so they can turn our country into the same kind of things that happen back home for them.




I thought it was due to the LTP scheme. Except the police spoilt the game with their arrests.

Oh what is the TPM scheme?

*L*ive
*T*arget
*P*ractise


----------



## Largesse (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

I'm no xenophobe but this is going to be a huge win for those that are that look to influence public policy.

However, I also think we should be taking a similar stance to the UK with issuing semi-permanent/permanent Visa's now.
Minimum of a Master's degree + work experience + finances for a permanent visa. No more of these pansy refugee status visas.

Hearing stories of 'refugees' leaving their home country and traveling through upto half a dozen other suitable and safe countries to get to Australia riles me to no end.


----------



## Calliope (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

It stands to reason that if we accept "asylum seekers" from countries like the Sudan, Somalia and Sri Lanka where terrorism is a way of life, they will slip in past our screening methods, and set up cells in this country.


----------



## Fishbulb (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

There's a lot of genuine people looking for somewhere to live in the world that isn't going to kill them for trying to plant crops. 

Some of the opinions expressed here are not borderline racist.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

The news was on the streets in the Australian at 1:30 am, before the raids.

Why not just give them a call first and let them know the cops are on the way ?


----------



## MRC & Co (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Fishbulb said:


> There's a lot of genuine people looking for somewhere to live in the world that isn't going to kill them for trying to plant crops.
> 
> Some of the opinions expressed here are not borderline racist.




I sponsor African children, most of my friends are not anglo Aussies.  

But why dont you invite these people over for some soup and to stay for the weekend in the family home with the kids and determine later whether they are humble crop planters?  See what I'm getting at?  That's basically what you are advocating.


----------



## happytown (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*

the 'terrorists' target was military not civilian

the australian newspaper long critical of those perceived as not being tough on 'terrorists' provides nation-wide early warning to literate 'terrorists' of raids in advance

did the 'terrorists' gain legitimate entry to australia under rudd's or howard's stewardship - during the howard regime there was a move toward africa for refugee influx

our law enforcement appear to have done a good job in apprehending the 'terrorist' threat before it became 'terrorist' reality, and all this under the current level of freedoms enjoyed by all of us

qualification that although little detail is currently known, good work law enforcement

cheers 

another quality post brought to you by happytown inc


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



happytown said:


> the 'terrorists' target was military not civilian




Doesnt matter, a lot of us have friends and family in the military.

You're not saying it's not as bad because the target wasn't civilian I hope ?


----------



## Fishbulb (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



MRC & Co said:


> I sponsor African children, most of my friends are not anglo Aussies.
> 
> But why dont you invite these people over for some soup and to stay for the weekend in the family home with the kids and determine later whether they are humble crop planters?  See what I'm getting at?  That's basically what you are advocating.




Wrong. 

I simply meant that you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And again, some of these comments are not borderline racist.

I too happen to have had a lot of direct experience and contact with African folk here in Melbourne. And it's indicative of a xenophobic and insular society when assumptions are made about entire countries when it's a small percentage of individuals that happen to be culprits.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

I know it's sentitive tippy toeing around the racist thing but if Catholics were blowing people up all around the world, the whole religion would be brought into question.

Thats why all Muslims have to carry can for the extremists among them, you cant blame us for feeling that way.


----------



## dalek (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Fishbulb said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I simply meant that you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And again, some of these comments are not borderline racist.
> 
> I too happen to have had a lot of direct experience and contact with African folk here in Melbourne. And it's indicative of a xenophobic and insular society when assumptions are made about entire countries when it's a small percentage of individuals that happen to be culprits.





A Sunday Herald Sun survey of 400 cases at magistrates' courts across Melbourne found 14 per cent of offenders came from the Horn of Africa and the Middle East -- many of them refugees -- about 20 times the representative proportion of the population.


----------



## Happy (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Fishbulb said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I simply meant that you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And again, some of these comments are not borderline racist.
> 
> ....




We have a right to live peaceful life here and not be forced to accept any bathwater with babies and scum.


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

Terrorism goes beyond racism.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



dalek said:


> A Sunday Herald Sun survey of 400 cases at magistrates' courts across Melbourne found 14 per cent of offenders came from the Horn of Africa and the Middle East -- many of them refugees -- about 20 times the representative proportion of the population.




FFS!! Thats a reliable source!! And aboriginals are also over represented in Jail.

Once upon a time it was the Italian bringing their organised crime.

Once upon a time it was the the lebos bringing their organised crime. Which by the way are majority christian.

Once upon a time it was the Vietnamese bringing their organised crime and ghetto living. And non christian religions

All Melbourne has is it multicultural society. God knows it ain't the weather or abundance of water. So what a couple of nuts slip through.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

Yeah but I hate going into a suburb in Melbourne where no one speaks English.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yeah but I hate going into a suburb in Melbourne where no one speaks English.




Really? I live in Richmond which 1/4 of is called little Saigon. One of the better parts of Richmond. More sense of community and involvement by those that are there than 1 k up the road on Bridge road thats full of Anglo's looking for the next Paris Hilton ripoffs. Take little Saigon over little Disneyland any day.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Really? I live in Richmond which 1/4 of is called little Saigon. One of the better parts of Richmond. More sense of community and involvement by those that are there than 1 k up the road on Bridge road thats full of Anglo's looking for the next Paris Hilton ripoffs. Take little Saigon over little Disneyland any day.




Actually after I wrote that I thought of Victoria St Richmond, full of atmosphere, great places to eat, no...... I do agree with you.

I think I was thinking of Springvale in years gone by and the way it was taken over by the Vietnamese.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Really? I live in Richmond which 1/4 of is called little Saigon. One of the better parts of Richmond. More sense of community and involvement by those that are there than 1 k up the road on Bridge road thats full of Anglo's looking for the next Paris Hilton ripoffs. Take little Saigon over little Disneyland any day.



Agree there TH.



			
				Happy said:
			
		

> but if we don't change our democratic beyond reasonable doubt crap




In fact I'm more worried by this sort of attitude than a couple of nutters.

And as far as causing trauma, there is a million times more chance of getting cleaned up by a pissed or coked up boy racer than a terrorist.

Look at the stats.


----------



## Buckeroo (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> And as far as causing trauma, there is a million times more chance of getting cleaned up by a pissed or coked up boy racer than a terrorist.
> 
> Look at the stats.




I think WayneL, there's a huge difference between boy racers & terrorists. I doubt anybody would ever get used to people killing others on mass just because their beliefs are different.

At least the Feds were on the ball - I bet it didn't help having Utegate to sort out at the same time! I could just image, KRudd demanding that Utegate be given top priority. 

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> I think WayneL, there's a huge difference between boy racers & terrorists. I doubt anybody would ever get used to people killing others on mass just because their beliefs are different.
> 
> Cheers



Granted, but only on a psychological level. Folks have more chance of being killed by a family member than by a terrorist.

The thing is, our forefathers fought and died in wars for the freedoms we take for granted now.

If some quivering and quaking fool wants to get rid of those freedoms because of a couple of Somalis, they can go to hell. 

If that happens, the "terrorists" kick a huge goal.

Where's the Blitz Spirit? The stiff upper lip? Take away "innocent until proven guilty" because of a few malcontented lunatics and we take a step into totalitarianism. 

Like f~~~ing hell!!!


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Granted, but only on a psychological level. Folks have more chance of being killed by a family member than by a terrorist.
> 
> The thing is, our forefathers fought and died in wars for the freedoms we take for granted now.
> 
> ...




Terrorism eminates from one religion and just a few ethnic types.

I think our forefathers would take the view that some action needs to be taken and stuff vilification laws that do not reflect the real world.


----------



## nunthewiser (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Terrorism eminates from one religion and just a few ethnic types.
> 
> I .





no offense intended but that comment is a complete load of bollox

too many examples to list but heres 1 

IRA

feel free to add more


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> no offense intended but that comment is a complete load of bollox
> too many examples to list but heres 1
> IRA
> feel free to add more




I thought someone would throw that one up, that was an issue 20 years ago.

And please add more if you can.


----------



## nunthewiser (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I thought someone would throw that one up, that was an issue 20 years ago.
> 
> And please add more if you can.




iraq verses iran

russia and that lil tinpot country next door 

the mass bombings thruout europe over the last 2 decades 

and the list continues.........

they just the ones that immediately spring to mind without actually thinking 

open ya bloody eyes burnsy .your one eyed view on a religeon and its ppl is offensive to my intelligence


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I thought someone would throw that one up, that was an issue 20 years ago.
> 
> And please add more if you can.




Tamil tigers were the first suicide bombers of recent history. Not Muslims.

Black south Africans were in the same boat once. 

I could go on but its a pointless argument.


----------



## gooner (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I thought someone would throw that one up, that was an issue 20 years ago.
> 
> And please add more if you can.




Basque terrorism (ethnicity European) 

Real IRA (Catholic and ethnic European)

Jewish attacks (Jewish religion, various ethnicity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

Hindu terrorism (Hindu religion, Indian ethnicity)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7739541.stm


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Terrorism eminates from one religion and just a few ethnic types.
> 
> I think our forefathers would take the view that some action needs to be taken and stuff vilification laws that do not reflect the real world.




You are confusing issues.

1/ racial villification and immigration laws, political correctness and

2/ the principle of innocent until proven guilty,

Are two different things. Happy wants to suspend one of the core tenets of our system of law, which will affect every person , whether white, black or yellow, or whatever religion or non-religion, when dealing with government and the police.

Like I said - Like f~~~ing hell!!!


----------



## nunthewiser (4 August 2009)

that enough examples there mr burns ? 

anything to add  ?

or do you agree that your comment was a load of bollox ?


----------



## gooner (4 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Tamil tigers were the first suicide bombers of recent history. Not Muslims.
> 
> Black south Africans were in the same boat once.
> 
> I could go on but its a pointless argument.




Using Black South Africans as an example is a real "freedom fighter versus terrorist argument". Black South Africans were oppressed by a white fascist Government - not sure how fighting that can be called terrorism. Was fighting the Nazis terrorism?


----------



## white_crane (4 August 2009)

Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the blatant prejudicial comments on this thread. :headshake


----------



## nunthewiser (4 August 2009)

agrees with the jedi master



oh hang on i better find out what religeon/race/colour/breed he is first


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> that enough examples there mr burns ?
> anything to add  ?
> or do you agree that your comment was a load of bollox ?




No actually I think your misunderstanding of what I said is a load of bollox.

I dont care if these people blow each other up but if they target western targets I object. 

Apart from the ancient IRA it's confined to a very specific group of religious fanatics.

So grow up and see the reality around you.


----------



## nunthewiser (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Terrorism eminates from one religion and just a few ethnic types.
> I think our forefathers would take the view that some action needs to be taken and stuff vilification laws that do not reflect the real world.




that is your original post 

i still think your one eyed racist views show signs of a small mind .... 

i may need to grow up . yeah probably ..... but at least being a bigot is not one of my crosses i have to bear


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

*pulls up chair to watch the burning building*  *waiting for fire engines now* 

It's a good thing we have "echelon" to eavesdrop on these mad buggers who wanted to engage the military target until they were killed. LMFAO !!!!!!! Shhhhhhhhhhh .. their listening now.


----------



## Macquack (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I thought someone would throw that one up, that was an issue 20 years ago.
> 
> And please add more if you can.




Israeli Defence Forces definitely qualify.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> that is your original post
> 
> i still think your one eyed racist views show signs of a small mind ....
> 
> i may need to grow up . yeah probably ..... but at least being a bigot is not one of my crosses i have to bear




I'm no bigot or racist just intolerant of soft **** attitudes to isses that require action ......not fashionable politically correct BS attitudes that got us into this mess in the first place.


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm no bigot or racist just intolerant of soft **** attitudes to isses that require action ......not fashionable politically correct BS attitudes that got us into this mess in the first place.




LOL ... talk about trial by your peers. Would you be guilty of profiling perhaps Mr Burns? Whereby it is pretty well established that if you are wearing a red and white tea towel on your head, with a long black flowing beard and wearing sandals and carrying an AK47 they might and I repeat just might be a terrorist? There ... I've said it now ... it's out in the open.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> LOL ... talk about trial by your peers. Would you be guilty of profiling perhaps Mr Burns? Whereby it is pretty well established that if you are wearing a red and white tea towel on your head, with a long black flowing beard and wearing sandals and carrying an AK47 they might and I repeat just might be a terrorist? There ... I've said it now ... it;s out in the open.




Well.....untill theyve killed at least 30 people they have their rights and even after that they still have their rights, perhaps get a a bond because they had it tough as a child ??? and then there's the appeal.


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

30 is such a random number. Why not pick on a prime number like 17. That sounds better and is an achievable target. Stiil don't know how these terrorists (that naughty word) thought they were going to pull this stunt off? If it was me I would attack K Mart or the Reserve Bank or similar. Not the bloody Australian Army. They have guns you know and are trained to fight back. This will not do !


----------



## Julia (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The news was on the streets in the Australian at 1:30 am, before the raids.
> 
> Why not just give them a call first and let them know the cops are on the way ?



"The Australian" may have a few questions to answer over this.




Buckeroo said:


> At least the Feds were on the ball - I bet it didn't help having Utegate to sort out at the same time! I could just image, KRudd demanding that Utegate be given top priority.
> 
> Cheers



Possibly so.  However, he relished the opportunity to don his most statesmanlike serious face and reassure us that we were all still safe.

Fair enough.  That's exactly what he should do.

Bet Turnbull and co., on the other hand, were hugely relieved that there was some more important event to knock Utegate from the headlines.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Well.....untill theyve killed at least 30 people they have their rights and even after that they still have their rights, perhaps get a a bond because they had it tough as a child ??? and then there's the appeal.



Hmmmm how many argumentitive fallacies are contained here? I lost count.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> 30 is such a random number. Why not pick on a prime number like 17. That sounds better and is an achievable target. Stiil don't know how these terrorists (that naughty word) thought they were going to pull this stunt off? If it was me I would attack K Mart or the Reserve Bank or similar. Not the bloody Australian Army. They have guns you know and are trained to fight back. This will not do !




The army aren't on alert all the time, in fact their security at the entrances to their compounds is outsourced to private security companies, and unarmed at that , what a joke.

If anyone wants to target our troops on their own soil it should be treated as an act of war at the very least and the perpetrators dealt with accordingly.


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

Aaaaaaah so very true. But I am thinking they would recognise the sound of a gun going off? Being millitary types and all that jazz. You could walk through the corridors of the Reserve Bank blasting off shells and they would think it was the dinner bell.

Absobloodylutely. Shot at dawn. Goodbye, you are the weakest link. Kapow.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Hmmmm how many argumentitive fallacies are contained here? I lost count.




Name one.


----------



## Trembling Hand (4 August 2009)

gooner said:


> Us Black South Africans were oppressed by a white fascist Government - not sure how fighting that can be called terrorism.




No either do I. not sure what my point was.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Aaaaaaah so very true. But I am thinking they would recognise the sound of a gun going off? Being millitary types and all that jazz. You could walk through the corridors of the Reserve Bank blasting off shells and they would think it was the dinner bell.
> 
> Absobloodylutely. Shot at dawn. Goodbye, you are the weakest link. Kapow.




Just because they're in the army doesnt mean they are on alert  like in the movies.


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Just because they're in the army doesnt mean they are on alert  like in the movies.




Lol ... I get it Mr Burns. I was trying to suggest (and very poorly I must say) that I would rather have a red hot go at a civillian building where the nupties would think it was firecrackers or a car exhaust backfiring  and come running closer to look. 

K Mart - Kapow, rat a tat tat ... Oooooh look Johnny, the circus is in town let's go have a look shall we?

Army Barracks - Kapow, rat a tat tat .... Oh FERK, that sounds like a gun going off, let's go have a look shall we?


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Lol ... I get it Mr Burns. I was trying to suggest (and very poorly I must say) that I would rather have a red hot go at a civillian building where the nupties would think it was firecrackers or a car exhaust backfiring  and come running closer to look. Kapow, rat a tat tat ... Oooooh look Johnny, the circus is in town let's go have a look shall we?
> 
> Compared to Kapow, rat a tat tat .... Oh FERK, that sounds like a gun going off, let's go have a look shall we?




The bases arent on alert for attacks regardless of what peope may think.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Name one.



Obviously I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole, but...

...take your pick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Obviously I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole, but...
> 
> ...take your pick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy




Without going over history I perhaps wrongly assume the people that I address my remarks to have a reasonable undertanding of the issues.

If you want a clinical debate open a thread that spells that out.


----------



## Uncle Barry (4 August 2009)

Good evening Train man.
"You could walk through the corridors of the Reserve Bank blasting off shells and they would think it was the dinner bell."

Mate you know NOTHING about how the RBA works or operates, do you ?
So to be nice, your so far from being correct its silly.

Just have something under your shirt, EVEN on the other side of the Martin Place and your in trouble !

UB


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Without going over history I perhaps wrongly assume the people that I address my remarks to have a reasonable undertanding of the issues.
> 
> If you want a clinical debate open a thread that spells that out.




Burns

The point is that you were making a fallacious argument to support your point, or perhaps it was just hyperbole as well. 

What is your point by the way? Do you think we should suspend the current system of law as intimated by Happy? Or just suspend it for some, based on ethnicity/religion?


----------



## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Good evening Train man.
> "You could walk through the corridors of the Reserve Bank blasting off shells and they would think it was the dinner bell."
> 
> Mate you know NOTHING about how the RBA works or operates, do you ?
> ...




LOL @ you UB. The analogy is the dopey pricks who work in there would not have a clue if they heard a gun shot. Man this place is getting WAAAAAAY to serious. 

Have a look at post #53 for the answer there Uncle Barry.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

Wayne , I said this - 



> Well.....untill theyve killed at least 30 people they have their rights and even after that they still have their rights, perhaps get a a bond because they had it tough as a child ??? and then there's the appeal.




Most people would understand I was paraphrasing the state of play as it is at present.
Dont go overboard examining the words , look at the full context.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Wayne , I said this -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OK, hyperbole it is. But what is the context you speak of? More importantly what is your solution?

And I wouldn't mind an answer to my question please.


----------



## moXJO (4 August 2009)

any one remember the Australian that bombed a mosque in Israel back in 69?


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> OK, hyperbole it is. But what is the context you speak of? More importantly what is your solution?
> 
> And I wouldn't mind an answer to my question please.




Hyperbole is just a way of pushing a point home to those who only listen to capital letters.

The solution is to realistically assess immigrants , think of the rights of existing Australians first.

Reserve the granting of rights to those who have earned it.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Hyperbole is just a way of pushing a point home to those who only listen to capital letters.
> 
> The solution is to realistically assess immigrants , think of the rights of existing Australians first.
> 
> Reserve the granting of rights to those who have earned it.




I agree with that. But your comments related to the legal system, not immigration rules. That is a very different context.

Do you have an answer to my question? Do you support the suspension of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"? Important, because it goes to the very foundation of our system of law.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> I agree with that. But your comments related to the legal system, not immigration rules. That is a very different context.
> 
> Do you have an answer to my question? Do you support the suspension of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"? Important, because it goes to the very foundation of our system of law.




Sorry I must have missed that.
Very important question.

Innocent utill proven guilty allows anyone, however *obviously* guilty, to use the law to protect themselves using the law and it's failings.

The law should be overhauled to allow for the detention of those reasonalby suspected of being a risk to the public.

This of course opens many other doors that would need to be addressesd.

It's complcated but I think reasonable people locked in a room for a week could formulate a solution.

One thing for sure this needs to be done , the law is now outdated.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The law should be overhauled to allow for the detention of those reasonalby suspected of being a risk to the public.




As I undersatnd it, those laws are already in place, particularly in regard to terrorist activities.

Australian Anti-Terrorism Act 2005 (summary)


Potential for preventive detention: short term detention for named individuals: without evidence; and without criminal involvement; the detainee may be interrogated by Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO); disclosing that an individual has been so detained or interrogated is, in almost all circumstances, a crime.
Control orders: Potential for almost unlimited restrictions on named individuals: freedom of movement; freedom of association (including one's lawyer); banning the performing of named actions and owning named items, including actions and things necessary to earn a living; unlimited requirements to be, or not to be, at specified places at any or all times of the day and week; wear a tracking device; and including encouragement to submit to re-education. These restrictions are referred to as "control orders", and may be granted for a period of one year before review.
Significant restrictions on the right of any citizen to express certain opinions: including criticism, or "urging disaffection", of the sovereign, the constitution, the government, the law, or 'different groups'; exemptions may exist where the target of criticism is agreed to be 'in error'; exemptions appear to exist where the claim is that a feature of a group of people is in some way offensive to the mainstream of society; onus of proof of goodwill is on the defendant - the presumption is not of innocence.
It becomes a crime, punishable by life imprisonment, to recklessly provide funds to a potential terrorist: funds include money and equivalents and also assets; it is not necessary that the culprit know the receiver is a terrorist, only that they are reckless about the possibility; it is not even necessary that the receiver is a terrorist, only that the first person is reckless about the possibility that they might be.
Police can request information from any source about any named person: any information about the person's travel, residence, telephone calls, financial transactions amongst other information; professional privilege does not apply; it can be an offence to disclose that such documents have been obtained.
A legislative provision for 'hoax offences' will create a more serious charge for people who cause chaos for the public and emergency services by dreaming up devastating terrorist-inspired hoaxes.


----------



## MrBurns (4 August 2009)

I dont think those laws are responsibly applied.

Thats my whole argument. Well not my whole argument but a sizable chunk of my objections.


----------



## steve999 (5 August 2009)

I'm sure Haneef would have liked a bit of innocent until proven guilty.

And to quote wikipedia quoting the UN security council 
Terrorism is an act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act"

So targetting military isn't really terrorism. Neither is shooting up a school for some reason (at least if you are white). Martin Bryant wasn't a terrorist either but he killed a few people.

So why can't we just call them attempted murders and be done with it? I don't really care why somebody is trying to kill me...


----------



## GumbyLearner (5 August 2009)

They have been here for at least 3 decades but NOW they have decided to attack the public. Terrorism what about the kids?????????????? What a bunch of gutless grubs! And they're not necessarily from Somalia or Lebanon! They are just weak as piss gutless blend in as normal cowards.


----------



## knocker (5 August 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> They have been here for at least 3 decades but NOW they have decided to attack the public. Terrorism what about the kids?????????????? What a bunch of gutless grubs! And they're not necessarily from Somalia or Lebanon! They are just weak as piss gutless blend in as normal cowards.




Yeah let chopper lose on em. he'll show the bastards.


----------



## tech/a (5 August 2009)

I dont understand.

Why a military target?
Why not a public soft target?]

Are we not being told "The Target" for fear of panic?


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

tech/a said:


> I dont understand.
> 
> Why a military target?
> Why not a public soft target?]
> ...




Tech there is a reason they are _not_ called smart bombs.


----------



## Uncle Barry (5 August 2009)

Hi Train man,
I just read your reply to my post.
Good trick, edit and change your post AFTER I replied to you !

Best you stick with trains with those kind of games/tricks.

Once more, again, you know nothing about RBA and how they conduct business AND protect their buildings and the 'goods' stored there but make silly wild and just dopy statements about something you know nothing of/about.

Rant all you wish, call me what you wish but from this point on your Credibility factor is now a minus.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

Sheeesuss UB. You stub your slippers on the bed head getting up this morning?


----------



## awg (5 August 2009)

My 2c worth

An associate of mine did years of work with refugee organisations.

A successful self employed businessman who himself is an immigrant

He recently withdrew his assistance, partly due to internal refugee assistance politics, but also because he was shocked by what he observed in the Somali and Sudanese refugees, many of whom have settled locally.

As far as I am aware the vast majority are so happy to leave the horror of what they have come from, but due to alienation and trauma, and lack of education, some of the young guys have a very disturbing attitude.

They have a warrior mentality, and a background most could not comprehend.

Think "Black Hawk Down"

They dont pussy about, hence the idea of attacking a Military base.

I hope the "authorities" have a good handle on this..ie insiders, which I believe they would and should have, as I think the vast majority of the new settlers will be so appalled at the prospect of terrorism and the backlash against them, that they might provide information to the authorities, even though in their countries of origin, that may bring about death


----------



## ajjack (5 August 2009)

Train man has left this forum.

Can't believe it.

Just in case its true ....... adios hombre
and thanks for acknowledging me in your
last post

Tra


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

awg

the traditional hunting ground for recruiting  is upon very disturbed traumatised and vulnerable souls..   under the banner of a faith or ideology  it becomes even more powerful. each one we miss is a candidate for terrorism. 

these lebanese and somalian youth are good candidates and are being checked out by the criminals who want them to commit mass murder upon us..

i was watching the doco on the mumbai attacks a few nights back, and the young pakistani recruits were constantly being guided by mobile phone contact throughout, the leaders would ring them and ask them to burn rooms or kill more and work harder throughout the attack, they were watching it live on cable and instructing these kids on what to do next..  these guys were absolutely convinced they would be going to heaven for mass murder of innocent men women and children

they get told by their leaders that they have also done these deeds themselves, which is of course a lie as the leaders would be dead if they had done such a thing..

these kids were looking for heavenly approval for their deeds, its reported our melbourne friends were seeking a fatwa, or religious ruling.

it stems from the business that dominates the globe, its amazing how the US, the biggest arm dealer,  sell these weapons into regions and they end up in places like somalia.

with fanatics on one side and the coalition of the willing making sure they get their weapons of choice, the war machine can continue its economic trek to dominate the planet and its resources.

with the advent of millions of displaced people in somalia, directly caused by the US trading these weapons into these regions,, we have millions fleeing to safe havens, we can now see that the terrorist networks have their eyes on these next generation of youth, the ones in safe places like australia, and any that are slightly alienated in these safe havens are being very quickly picked up..

every one  in australia needs to support these australian multicultural communities and not condemn them.. they are better off here


http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/594793

if you ever want to see a great doco on arms dealing watch Running Guns: A Journey into the Small Arms Trade


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

attacking a military barracks that houses our para and commando batallions seems pretty bloody stupid to me but there you go.

we have a right to ask "what value will these people bring to our society?" when we determine immigration policy. there are serious problems to be overcome when we source immigrants from cultures that have traits incompatible with the ideals of liberal, western democracy, so it would be easier just to keep sourcing them from cultures that don't have this baggage.

so why bring immigrants from tribal africa or muslim arabs when we have plenty of other sources of immigrants who don't come with oppressive, totalitarian or chaotic cultural baggage?

africans and muslim arabs bring lots of problems, as well as extremely high rates of long term welfare dependence and criminality. so why bring more? there's billions of people from countries that don't follow an oppressive ideology / don't possess obscene cultural traits / do have an understanding of the social compact who would contribute positively to the country without subjecting the rest of us to higher levels of dependence and crime.

THE SOCIAL COMPACT. society cannot remain stable without it yet we bring in people who either don't understand it or don't respect it, and the rest of us have to pay for this poor decision making. we have a right to demand our politicians hold the interests of australian citizens ABOVE any other concern, and this includes the fine details of our immigration policy.

the problem is the screeching left is quick to play the "racist" or "bigot" card so any free, open and logical discussion is effectively stifled by self righteous thought police who see it as their right to jam their misguided ideals down the throat of wider society.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> we have a right to ask "what value will these people bring to our society?" when we determine immigration policy. there are serious problems to be overcome when we source immigrants from cultures that have traits incompatible with the ideals of liberal, western democracy, so it would be easier just to keep sourcing them from cultures that don't have this baggage.




So it was a mistake to bring the Vietnamese during the 60s - 80s?


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> So it was a mistake to bring the Vietnamese during the 60s - 80s?




not unless there is some hidden sect of buddhism they practice that subjugates women, seeks to overthrow our system and replace it with their own, and demands everyone convert, become a second class citizen or die. otherwise no, it seems to have worked out pretty well so far.


----------



## MrBurns (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> not unless there is some hidden sect of buddhism they practice that subjugates women, seeks to overthrow our system and replace it with their own, and demands everyone convert, become a second class citizen or die. otherwise no, it seems to have worked out pretty well so far.




I have to agree with you disarray, there comes a time when we have to say "no" to some people and that time's now.

It won't happen though, Britain is buggered as is France.
Unfortunately they have the "right" to take over and do all that you mentioned above.


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Assimilate or be sent back from whence you came!
IMHO Australia needs to adopt (and very quickly) a One Strike Your Out and never to return policy that includes but is not limited to:

1.  Loosing the hidden from head to toe fashion statement
2.  Stop talking in tongues - This IS an English speaking country
3.  Demonstrating/espousing a hatred of Anglo Australians
4.  Refusing to accept the laws/traditions of this country

An example needs to be made that we have had enough of your crap/intimidation and we will not tolerate it any longer!


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

so far our most notorious terrorist and mass murderer was australian born

we also have another terrorist, south australian born australian who spent some years at Guantanamo.. anyone recall that clown?? 

all acts of attempted terrorism since have been picked up fairly early in the piece

as far as the overseas born new immigrants, some from muslim and war ravaged communities, we have yet to see anything from those communities on the scale of port arthur.

*there is not *any high rate of crime or africans and muslim arabs bring lots of problems, *nor is there* as well as extremely high rates of long term welfare dependence and criminality. *so bring more in i say
*
there is a lot of bigots and racists who love to enter into these type of discussions and disguise their bigotry in some way..

anyone notice it here?


----------



## glenn_r (5 August 2009)

This might bring a change in Army policy re weapons and ammo as Holsworthy Barracks is not a current area of operation the soldiers weapons would be secured in an armoury that would need a duty officer and/or a senior Q walla to open it to access the weapons but the ammo would be stored off site, so apart from a knife or two they would have no weapons for about 6 hours at the minimum, unless the RSM had a few spare rounds in his desk drawer from previous range practices.....


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> Assimilate or be sent back from whence you came!
> IMHO Australia needs to adopt (and very quickly) a One Strike Your Out and never to return policy that includes but is not limited to:
> 
> 1.  Loosing the hidden from head to toe fashion statement
> ...




Would be very happy for such rules to apply in a boring cultural waste land such as Queensland. Homogenized and fully pasteurized Anglos living in their same same same utopia.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> So it was a mistake to bring the Vietnamese during the 60s - 80s?



Dissaray's post is not about race but your question is directed at race.

It's about ideology.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> so far our most notorious terrorist and mass murderer was australian born
> 
> we also have another terrorist, south australian born australian who spent some years at Guantanamo.. anyone recall that clown??
> 
> ...




Let's not miss the point that it is about ideology not race. There is a difference.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Would be very happy for such rules to apply in a boring cultural waste land such as Queensland. Homogenized and fully pasteurized Anglos living in their same same same utopia.



This is racist because it refers to one group and is clear that the intent is to make that group look culturally pathetic by use of words.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Dissaray's post is not about race but your question is directed at race.
> 
> It's about ideology.




No. The vietnamese where fleeing an ideology that was not one compatible to a Western ideology, that is Communism.

Most where trying to escape such ideology, just the same as I would think most Somalians have left there home for. And just like I am sure a few communist slipped through the doors in the 70s so too will some Islamic nuts.

But that didn't stop it being a positive. or did it??


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> This is racist because it refers to one group and is clear that the intent is to make that group look culturally pathetic by use of words.




Yes exactly why I choose to not live there in spite of the great environment. I'm racist to blandness.


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> so far our most notorious terrorist and mass murderer was australian born
> 
> we also have another terrorist, south australian born australian who spent some years at Guantanamo.. anyone recall that clown??
> 
> ...




that is irrelevant. no one is saying there is no crime in australia, no one is saying immigrants are the only criminals in australia, no one is saying its ok for australians to commit crime. 

the point is, it is a FACT that many adherants of a certain religion possess anti-western values, openly espouse treason and possess cultural traits that do not gel with the ideals of our society. more to the point the ideals of this religion are not negotiable, the desire to implement sharia law, the subjugation of women, the requirment to murder homosexuals, the drive to convert everyone by the sword, this is dogma.

now you may go ahead and say "its only a small minority of extremists", "i know this muslim guy at work and he's fine", "its all being misunderstood", so how about we use that to explain the nazis? "it's only a small minority of extremist nazis who want to gas the jews", "i know this nazi and he's a good bloke", "national socialism is misunderstood and it was twisted by a few scumbags to give us the holocaust". see how easy it is to whitewash an objectionable doctrine?



> *there is not *any high rate of crime or africans and muslim arabs bring lots of problems, *nor is there* well as extremely high rates of long term welfare dependence and criminality. *so bring more in i say
> *




you are *WRONG*. there *IS* a very high proportion of criminality and welfare dependence among african and muslim arab communities. a recent report from the victorian police stated that almost 25% of theft is melbourne was perpetrated by africans. we've seen indian students (normally a quiet and industrious bunch) rioting in the streets over being subjected to violence, the blame for this violence attributed to white australia when the fact of the matter is africans and middle easterners are responsible for a great deal of this violence, far out of proportion to their numbers in the community. rape statistics in europe (with many instances in australia) are spiralling out of control with arab muslims being solely responsible.

now you can sit there with your hands over your ears and go "lalalala we're all in rainbow land there is no problem" but it doesn't change the FACTS that statistics (when you can get a hold of them because racial reporting is often suppressed by the media and the bureaucracy) show a strong racial / cultural bias in many criminal endeavours. there's plenty of threads on this board where we've gone over it before so go do some of your own research before you come back and say "where's your proof blah blah i'm too lazy to go and refute it with my own statistics"



> there is a lot of bigots and racists who love to enter into these type of discussions and disguise their bigotry in some way..anyone notice it here?




and there we have it. BIGOT! RACIST! you my friend are part of the problem. people making valid points based on experience, statistics, and observations have their concerns, their points, their opinions ridiculed and denigrated because it doesn't conform to your world view on how we should all be thinking. see that video i posted a few posts up? he's talking about YOU.

what area do you live in by the way?


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes exactly why I choose to not live there in spite of the great environment. I'm racist to blandness.



So judging by your comments it is ok to be racist to white people as you refer to them as Anglo's. However if there is a cautionary word spoke about other people then you have a problem with that. Instead of worrying about little communities, let's worry about the Australian community. Your words do not help.


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> so far our most notorious terrorist and mass murderer was australian born
> 
> we also have another terrorist, south australian born australian who spent some years at Guantanamo.. anyone recall that clown??
> 
> ...




I will assume you are referring to my post and I have to ask what exactly it was that I was trying to hide, and I would also ask you 2 bit saints to consider how we as Australians overseas are asked/forced to act/behave.
Now do I smell the stench of double standards being applied here?


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Most where trying to escape such ideology, just the same as I would think most Somalians have left there home for. And just like I am sure a few communist slipped through the doors in the 70s so too will some Islamic nuts.




the difference is communist nuts don't have anywhere near as much offensive doctrine as islamist nuts



> But that didn't stop it being a positive. or did it??




well it did lead to an explosion in the availablity of heroin in sydney which led to high rates of addiction, organised crime and drug related petty crime, the price of which was borne by wider society. so there was a cost, some would argue a very heavy cost (like those who lost family members to overdoses, or were the victims of drug crime or were in some other way affected by a social outcome which did not exist to anywhere near such a degree before the arrival of the vietnamese).

it's not all beer and skittles, there is good and bad to be acknowledge, weighed up and then managed. unfortunately the "you're a bigot" brigade stifle any discussion and attempts at social management because "that would be racist"


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> So judging by your comments it is ok to be racist to white people as you refer to them as Anglo's. However if there is a cautionary word spoke about other people then you have a problem with that. Instead of worrying about little communities, let's worry about the Australian community. Your words do not help.




 I, being an anglo, do not find it overtly racist to call a collection of my fellow cultural descendants as having a characteristics of Sameness. After all that is what a collection of many similar types is.

I do not wish to live in a community that puts up walls to ensure that only those that are of the same ideology, religion, Colour or "race" are aloud in to preserive that "sameness". (nutters aside of course - see dissary for the list)


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> that is irrelevant. no one is saying there is no crime in australia, no one is saying immigrants are the only criminals in australia, no one is saying its ok for australians to commit crime.
> 
> the point is, it is a FACT that many adherants of a certain religion possess anti-western values, openly espouse treason and possess cultural traits that do not gel with the ideals of our society. more to the point the ideals of this religion are not negotiable, the desire to implement sharia law, the subjugation of women, the requirment to murder homosexuals, the drive to convert everyone by the sword, this is dogma.
> 
> ...





lol


statistics, experience!!

what crime report are you talking about? none was ever made

e q u a l
o p p o r t u n i t y
c o m m i s s i o n
v i c t o r i a
Understanding Islam 1

Source: Religious Community Profiles: The Muslims in Australia, Wafia Omar and Kirsty Allen, Bureau of Immigration, Multicultural and
Population Research, AGPS, 

Muslim communities in Australia

Australia’s Muslim population is extremely ethnically diverse with overseas born Muslims coming from more than 73 countries in the Middle East, Africa, Southern and Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe.

About 40% of Muslims in Australia are from Arabic backgrounds.

Afghan and Punjabi camel drivers were among the first Muslims in Australia, arriving between 1867 and 1910 to provide crucial outback transport services.

Most of Australia’s overseas born Muslim’s arrived after World War II from European refugee camps. They were followed by a large group of mostly Turkish Cypriot Muslims.

Muslims from Lebanon followed, most coming after the outbreak of civil war in
Lebanon. African, Afghani and Iraqi Muslims are among the more recent arrivals.

Many have come as refugees from countries affected by civil war and unrest.
Muslims from Bosnia are among the latest arrivals in the 1990’s.

You may not know…
·  That the first female tram driver in Victoria was a Muslim woman
·  That Muslims come from more than 73 countries across the world
·  That about 40% of Muslims in Australia come from Arabic backgrounds
·  That in Islam, women and men are considered equal in the eyes of God
*·  That national crime statistics report that Muslim communities are generally more law-abiding than other Australians*
·  That Muslim women have a higher rate of admission into higher education than women from other migrant communities
·  That Australian Muslims and Arabic-speaking communities have made enormous  contributions to Victoria’s economic, social and cultural life


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes exactly why I choose to not live there in spite of the great environment. I'm racist to blandness.




Would be only too pleased to make you turn around and go back to Utopia sunshine!


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> lol
> 
> 
> statistics, experience!!
> ...



Could you please provide a link to that report?


----------



## MrBurns (5 August 2009)

I'd love to dip in here but dissaray has taken the words right out of my mouth .........again.

I'm not racist but I am anti anyone who comes to this country and stuffs it up.

I am against people who vilify women.
I am against wearing full body cloaks/masks in public.
I am against anyone who dislikes the way we live so much they will make plans do destroy us or take us over.

If the Catholics were doing this they'd be hated, so why try to hide the fact that we're talking about the Muslim religion and some of their followers.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

Disarray would love to see the report you are quoting about 25% of crime being the result of 0.5% of the population (i think its 0.5%)


A smell some SERIOUS BullSH!T.


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

AgentM, Trembling Hand et al of your ilk, it is your democratic right to be wrong and I am personally proud to live in a country where I can defend your democratic rights to the death.


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> AgentM, Trembling Hand et al of your ilk, it is your democratic right to be wrong and I am personally proud to live in a country where I can defend your democratic rights to the death.




what exactly am i wrong about? 

and i dont think  i want you to defend bigotry to the death,


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> AgentM, Trembling Hand et al of your ilk, it




My ilk being what?


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'd love to dip in here but dissaray has taken the words right out of my mouth .........again.
> 
> I'm not racist but I am anti anyone who comes to this country and stuffs it up.
> 
> ...




quick point on catholics?  are they equal in the eyes of god?

· That in Islam, women and men are considered equal in the eyes of God


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> what exactly am i wrong about?




Do you want it alphabetically or numerically?



Trembling Hand said:


> My ilk being what?




Happy band of idealists who refuse to face the reality of a very serious situation.


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> Do you want it alphabetically or numerically?
> 
> 
> 
> Happy band of idealists who refuse to face the reality of a very serious situation.




please queenslander

alphabetically and numerically, dont just claim i am wrong on something, back it up and tell me what i am wrong about on this subject..

TIA


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> please queenslander
> 
> alphabetically and numerically, dont just claim i am wrong on something, back it up and tell me what i am wrong about on this subject..
> 
> TIA



 First a question AgentM, have you ever visited a strict muslim country?


----------



## skyQuake (5 August 2009)

corn:


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> Happy band of idealists who refuse to face the reality of a very serious situation.




Oh i see you are talking about my refusal to see the army of terrorist about to bring down our democratic system due to immigration of 5000 Africans - mostly women.

thanks for the awaking. Much appreciated.

الشرج


----------



## Bushman (5 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If the Catholics were doing this they'd be hated
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> First a question AgentM, have you ever visited a strict muslim country?




again queenslander 

dont get too distracted here..

just post all the things i am wrong about alphabetically and numerically..


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh i see you are talking about my refusal to see the army of terrorist about to bring down our democratic system due to immigration of 5000 Africans - mostly women.
> 
> thanks for the awaking. Much appreciated.
> 
> الشرج




Funny you know...Anne Frank thought much the same in the early 30's


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> Funny you know...Anne Frank thought much the same in the early 30's




Yes very good example. Fascism very dangerous for any minority. Also toxic to any liberalism or individualism.

Very good though for internal cleansing. Arrh! that better all nice and white now.


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'd love to dip in here but dissaray has taken the words right out of my mouth .........again.
> 
> I'm not racist but I am anti anyone who comes to this country and stuffs it up.
> 
> ...




hey mr burns

you may not be racist but your in the minority of 4% of people with cultural indifference

Study reveals public attitudes toward hijab-wearing in Australia
A University of Western Sydney researcher has revealed the majority of Australians are supportive of Muslim women’s decisions to wear traditional Islamic headscarves.

Professor Kevin Dunn, a multiculturalism expert from the UWS School of Social Sciences, has conducted an analysis of recent public opinion polls and attitude surveys of more than 1300 people.

The findings reveal that, although there is a level of intolerance toward the Islamic faith and people of Middle Eastern descent in Australia, there is little public objection to the hijab or the women who wear them.

Professor Dunn’s analysis was released this week as a chapter of a new book, ‘Beyond the Hijab Debates: New Conversations on Gender, Race and Religion.’ Within the chapter, Professor Dunn reveals that any objections to the hijab are rare and isolated.

“Discussions about cultural intolerance and prejudice will often focus on the hijab, as it is the most well-known, visual representation of the Islamic faith,” says Professor Dunn. “There have been assertions, from political leaders and other personalities, that ordinary Australians object to the traditional Islamic dress however, based on the findings of this study, these concerns are completely unfounded.”

Research indicates that around 85 per cent of Australians support cultural diversity and are comfortable with the experience of cultural difference. The majority of respondents (81 per cent) were not concerned about Islamic women wearing the hijab in Australia.

Only 13 per cent of respondents expressed the view that wearing the hijab was inappropriate in Australia. For some Australians hijab wearing is representative of Islamic women’s repression or a failure to assimilate into Australian culture. Professor Dunn says there is a widespread misconception that wearing the hijab is mandatory for Islamic women.

Professor Dunn says the most common response to survey questions was that Islamic women shared the rights of all Australians to freedom of religion and to individual liberty and expression.

“Australians have a strong sense of their democratic rights and are passionate advocates for people’s freedom of choice, irrespective of culture or religion,” says Professor Dunn. “A large majority of the respondents exhibited sympathy for hijab-wearing and an understanding that *it is no different to other forms of public demonstration of religion, such as catholic nuns wearing habits and crucifixes*.”
Professor Dunn says the results of the study are overwhelmingly positive and, reveal that there is much more tolerance and acceptance within Australian communities than some people have suggested.
*“However, the fact remains that 4.2 per cent of respondents expressed the view that headscarves should be prohibited – a small result which nevertheless reflects a need for further education about Islam and cultural tolerance in Australia,” he says.*

‘Beyond the Hijab Debates: New Conversations on Gender, Race and Religion’ by Tanja Dreher and Christine Ho was launched this week in Sydney.


----------



## knocker (5 August 2009)

tech/a said:


> I dont understand.
> 
> Why a military target?
> Why not a public soft target?]
> ...




Why did not the terrorst choose a soft target? Easy because there are so many of their kind already in this country they did not want to risk killing one of their own. lol


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> *“However, the fact remains that 4.2 per cent of respondents expressed the view that headscarves should be prohibited – a small result which nevertheless reflects a need for further education about Islam and cultural tolerance in Australia,” he says.*
> 
> ‘Beyond the Hijab Debates: New Conversations on Gender, Race and Religion’ by Tanja Dreher and Christine Ho was launched this week in Sydney.




Because forcing Islam down their throats will change their mind. 
And talking of cultural tolerance, I thought a lot of the Christmas Christian activities got the can because Muslims found it offensive. I know it’s probably a minority- but where's there cultural education getting rammed home there?
As far as I'm concerned people will think what they want. And good luck to educating them otherwise in this particular subject.

And anyway I think the greater threat is too many Victorians moving to QLD. Forcing up prices, terrorizing the roads with your bad driving, and getting your VB put on tap at the pub. Go home ya mexicans


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Fascism very dangerous for any minority. Also toxic to any liberalism or individualism.
> 
> Very good though for internal cleansing. Arrh! that better all nice and white now.



Once again you take the white attack. Just because you are "Anglo" and to use your poor choice of words, doesn't give you the right to be racist towards that group. 

I agree with your first line above.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

moXJO said:


> And anyway I think the greater threat is too many Victorians moving to QLD. Forcing up prices, terrorizing the roads with your bad driving, and getting your VB put on tap at the pub. Go home ya mexicans




See how intolerant you banana benders are. You are all welcome down here any time. You can even import your silly footy game to show us how to play.

Oh hold on,


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> again queenslander
> 
> dont get too distracted here..
> 
> just post all the things i am wrong about alphabetically and numerically..




I take that as a NO.

End of discussion...I have, and if you had have, you would not be asking me to list the plethora of differences/double standards between us.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (5 August 2009)

*Re: melbourne terrorists,, terrorize this!*



Buddy said:


> Should have let them carry on. Watch them, then when they try it on..........summary execution of the lot.




My feeling exactly,

They wanted to attack holsworthy Army base and kill as many of our boys as possible, catching they off guard while they played footy.

Should have just given our boys 1hr notice that they were coming and see what happens.

They sad thing is if the terrorist succeed, they kill heaps of aussie boys and destroy many families, But if they fail they will probally just get a couple of years prison.

They terrorists want to die for their cause, I say let them.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> quick point on catholics?  are they equal in the eyes of god?
> · That in Islam, women and men are considered equal in the eyes of God



You can tell when someone is biased. They bring in the catholics to the debate and then continue with disinformation. 

Your immediate concern - if you care about AUstralia - should be the welfare of the Australian community. This includes overseas born immigrants.


----------



## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

moXJO said:


> ...And anyway I think the greater threat is too many Victorians moving to QLD. Forcing up prices, terrorizing the roads with your bad driving, and getting your VB put on tap at the pub. Go home ya mexicans




LMFHO

You are not kidding mo, up my way it's wall to wall "garden state" number plates!

If it's sooo bad up here and sooo good down there well.......


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> You can tell when someone is biased. They bring in the catholics to the debate and then continue with disinformation.
> 
> Your immediate concern - if you care about AUstralia - should be the welfare of the Australian community. This includes overseas born immigrants.




i agree snake, thats why i answered the catholic remark, they are biased towards women whom are not equal.

totally agree that the best thing for australia is to care for the community, not become intolerant and completely bigoted towards other cultures and race.  i made that point earlier on in detail.

good to see you understand the debate.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> See how intolerant you banana benders are. You are all welcome down here any time. You can even import your silly footy game to show us how to play.
> 
> Oh hold on,




Only because they stole all the qld players:

As for the army base you use to be able to just drive right in with no checks and no security etc. So really an easy target. Not sure if it's changed.


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> what crime report are you talking about? none was ever made




Anatomy of Crime in Victoria

Media Watch response

even after media watch went over it (the original figure was 1 in 9), 1 in 23 somalis were involved in crime in victoria. this doesn't take into account sudanese or any other african distinction, just the 2700 odd somalis. how many criminals should we tolerate with each intake?



> Source: Religious Community Profiles: The Muslims in Australia, Wafia Omar and Kirsty Allen, Bureau of Immigration, Multicultural and
> Population Research, AGPS




sure to be an unbiased report from the multicult department written by a muslim about muslims. where did they source their claims? i can come up with articles from right wing sources telling you exactly the opposite.



> Australia’s Muslim population is extremely ethnically diverse with overseas born Muslims coming from more than 73 countries in the Middle East, Africa, Southern and Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe.
> 
> *·  That national crime statistics report that Muslim communities are generally more law-abiding than other Australians*




all muslims? how about lebanese muslims compared to malaysian muslims? what is backing up these stats? "generally". quite an expansive word isn't it?



> You may not know…
> ·  That in Islam, women and men are considered equal in the eyes of God






> The Koran 4:34 YUSUFALI
> YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).




sure they are 



			
				Trembling Hand said:
			
		

> Disarray would love to see the report you are quoting about 25% of crime being the result of 0.5% of the population (i think its 0.5%)




i didn't say crime, i said theft. i've been trying to dig up the article but it escapes me at the moment under all the other ethnic crime articles, but here is an article going on about police crackdowns on african (specifically sudanese) crime gangs in melbourne and the call to settle them out of melbourne because of the trouble they are causing. how lucky for regional australia.



			
				Agentm said:
			
		

> Professor Kevin Dunn, a multiculturalism expert from the UWS School of Social Sciences, has conducted an analysis of recent public opinion polls and attitude surveys of more than 1300 people.




ok so a leftist academic in the multicult department asked 1300 from ... where? ... and 85% of them saying they don't care about the hijab, which isn't the same as the burqa anyway ... good use of phrasing there.



> “However, the fact remains that 4.2 per cent of respondents expressed the view that headscarves should be prohibited – a small result which nevertheless reflects a need for further education about Islam and cultural tolerance in Australia,” he says.




um no, that 4.2% (study group chosen from campus? at random? at the beach? in what area? outside the mosque on friday perhaps?) might actually understand the nature of islam and realise that it isn't australia who needs to learn cultural tolerance, but islam. because you know, its ok to be muslim in the west but being christian in saudi arabia or egypt or iraq or iran or pakistan or anywhere else with large numbers of the followers of the "religion of peace"* is to be subjected to state sponsored persecution, violence, oppression and INtolerance.

*if you're a muslim, of the same sect, and not homosexual, or secularist, or want to change your religion


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

skyQuake said:


> corn:




too early to post that skyquake. i've been saving it myself for a 1am posting spree


----------



## Tink (5 August 2009)

LOL @ Trembling Hand -- Go the *STORM *:

Agree with your comments as well..

Good one Bushman

Being Australian is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, and then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> i didn't say crime, i said theft. i've been trying to dig up the article but it escapes me at the moment under all the other ethnic crime articles, but here is an article going on about police crackdowns on African (specifically sudanese) crime gangs in melbourne and the call to settle them out of melbourne because of the trouble they are causing. how lucky for regional australia.




So you still sticking by the 15,000 (0.5%) Sudanese in Victoria being responsible for 25% of theft?

Even if you say they are all the feared 15 - 30 males age group? Which at a guess you would say that they aren't, maybe 5000 in that cohort? They should be commended for their industrious efforts, 0.16% responsible for 1/4 of activity  Australia need more of these high achievers seemingly able to bust through all probabilities. Just wait till the second generation gets an education.

They will hold 25% of directorships on ASX companies 

or maybe that stat is BS


----------



## nunthewiser (5 August 2009)

Tink said:


> LOL @ Trembling Hand -- Go the *STORM *:
> 
> Agree with your comments as well..
> 
> ...




you forgot to add the chinese hooker that was an expert in the art of french


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> um no, that 4.2% (study group chosen from campus? at random? at the beach? in what area? outside the mosque on friday perhaps?) might actually understand the nature of islam and realise that it isn't australia who needs to learn cultural tolerance, but islam. because you know, its ok to be muslim in the west but being christian in saudi arabia or egypt or iraq or iran or pakistan or anywhere else with large numbers of the followers of the "religion of peace"* is to be subjected to state sponsored persecution, violence, oppression and INtolerance.
> 
> *if you're a muslim, of the same sect, and not homosexual, or secularist, or want to change your religion





i agree with you, its entirely wrong to persecute people with religion, because of religion, or in the name of religion or belief.

intolerance and bigotry is easily portrayed with generalised claims  and rants on cultures and groups in australia.. but imho the greater majority, are just living and trying to stay afloat in a pretty strange world we live in

keep the midnight flame going and keep that rant rev meter up to 100 dissaray!!


----------



## Bushman (5 August 2009)

Ok from the Victorian Police web-site, here are the crime statistics from April2008 to March 2009

'Selected Crimes 

No. of Offences Recorded * 
Apr 08 - Mar 09 
Robbery  3,380  
Burglary (Residential)  28,757 
Burglary (Other) 17,878 
Theft from Motor Vehicle 50,553 
Theft of Motor vehicle 16,872 

Total theft/burglary crimes 117,440 - 25% of which is 29,360. 

So using TH's 5000 Sudanese kids, they committed 29,360 theft or burglary related crimes in 12 months? Assuming a 25% 'bad apple' rate (because they are crime loving refugees, off course), that means 1250 Sudanese kids commit 23 theft crimes each per annum. LOL; whiffy stat.


----------



## glenn_r (5 August 2009)

Bushman said:


> Ok from the Victorian Police web-site, here are the crime statistics from April2008 to March 2009
> 
> 'Selected Crimes
> 
> ...




Maybe using stats from the postcodes where they are located would be a more correct analysis....

I know here in Geelong a lot of Sudanese get their name on the court list.


----------



## Bushman (5 August 2009)

glenn_r said:


> Maybe using stats from the postcodes where they are located would be a more correct analysis....
> 
> I know here in Geelong a lot of Sudanese get their name on the court list.




Yep you could be right. Dandenong is the main suburb in Melbourne. Would be an interesting stat. You would have to adjust to see what % of the population the group represented too.


----------



## Bushman (5 August 2009)

Ok Dandenong (3175): 

Theft/burglaries 3710 per annum. 

So 25% of that is 927. 

More achievable.


----------



## disarray (5 August 2009)

Trembling Hand said:
			
		

> So you still sticking by the 15,000 (0.5%) Sudanese in Victoria being responsible for 25% of theft?




i can't find the original, however way to be the dog with the bone on a single point and leave the rest unanswered. the police report i recall by the victorian police mentioned that within a relatively recent period, sudanese were responsible for 25% of the thefts in that period in melbourne. it doesn't mean for all time, but what it does do is point to a disproportionate representation in criminal statistics, which was the original point. i found a similar one though for adelaide -

article here



> Mr Burns (deputy police commissioner) said that over the past 16 months, 450 offences had been committed by 93 members of Adelaide's 1500-strong Sudanese community.




so thats 1 in 19. impressive.



			
				Agentm said:
			
		

> keep the midnight flame going and keep that rant rev meter up to 100 dissaray




not seeing much of a rant Agentm  if by "rant" you mean "try and hold a civilised discussion, present points and try and back them up with reports and statistics" then oh yeah, "rant" 

here's one from 2001 from the then retiring head of the australian federal police. maybe he's a bigot?



> After seven years at the helm of Australia's Federal Police, Commissioner Mick Palmer has retired. But yesterday, he ensured a controversial end to his tenure by claiming ethnic crime gangs are largely responsible for the rising rates of violent offences in our capital cities. The commissioner also suggested that the greater use of hand guns and knives by gangs reflected behaviour more likely to be acceptable in the countries they originally came from.




it's really very simple and i don't know why it always has to degenerate into nitpicking and having to trawl the internet over and over again to highlight some of the problems caused by immigration policies that haven't been properly considered.

australia is an open society, it should remain that way, but our ideals, our laws and our way of life are not up for negotiation. immigration is a fact of life, and we have a right to demand that immigration and immigrants positively contribute to society as a whole. we have a good recent history of people arriving and settling down without problems, so when we see certain cultures having a negative impact on society then we have a right to demand the issue is discussed, the facts examined and the relevant policies modified to create the positive outcome society deserves.

however certain elements are quick to throw around terms like "bigot" and "racist" to suppress discussion on this topic, and it soon degenerates into having to trawl distasteful right wing sites for statistics (because they are the only ones who keep this kind of data) to prove that there are problems that need to be addressed and considered rather than just swept under the rug.

this isn't unreasonable, this isn't bigoted, this isn't a "rant", this is an attempt at a reasonable and civil discourse on a socially relevant topic among (hopefully) intelligent people.

it's the difference between posting here or stormfront or muslim village. i hope it stays that way.


----------



## Echelon (5 August 2009)

Rudd is "implementing the biggest immigration program since the end of WWII and the biggest intake, in absolute numbers of permanent immigrants and temporary workers, in Australia's history". Paul Sheehan, Sydney Morning Herald


----------



## Buddy (5 August 2009)

I'm with disarray on this one. And I dont think he/she is being a bigot or racist. You guys are far to free and accusing in using those words simply because someone has a different view, and the problem with that is that if you keep saying it enough you are going to turn everyone off and close down the debate. If that's your aim, then tell us. 

I'm also surprised that you havn't dragged GG into this with your bit about religous freedom, etc. To coin his phase.....bluddy godbotherers.

But back to the original topic. If I might expand on my original contribution where I suggested summary execution....... I maintain that these alleged acts are treason against the sovereign nation of Australia and all the people of this good country. Acts of treason should be liable to the ultimate punishment. Extreme and severe death.


----------



## Agentm (5 August 2009)

disarray said:


> i can't find the original, however way to be the dog with the bone on a single point and leave the rest unanswered. the police report i recall by the victorian police mentioned that within a relatively recent period, sudanese were responsible for 25% of the thefts in that period in melbourne. it doesn't mean for all time, but what it does do is point to a disproportionate representation in criminal statistics, which was the original point. i found a similar one though for adelaide -
> 
> article here
> 
> ...




lol

what a load of crap.. right winged!! hilarious! 

we have a higher crime rate in the aboriginal communities, with their culture in tatters and complete apathy shown to them, and no terrorism comes from that high crime culture. 

terrorism is not coming from a sudanese or lebanese street criminal, its not the crime rate that makes a terrorist

martyn bryant is the only terrorist to succeed in australia. hardly fits your picture disarray.  35 dead 28 wounded.. 

the will to kill on mass, to just terrorise a community can be religiously motivated, or it can be something completely else. it scan be because "it was a nice day" or a "pretty spot"

it it rational?  not really, its a very hard concept to grapple..

but it doesnt come from high crime rates or from a particular community specifically. but there is plenty of evidence that motivations for this type of act, be it spanish, irish, arabic, middle eastern or eastern europe or african, its one thing we must all look closely at..

singling out a specific community and blaming bad immigration policy is laughable, its global and it can happen anywhere anytime..


----------



## Tink (5 August 2009)

Echelon said:


> Rudd is "implementing the biggest immigration program since the end of WWII and the biggest intake, in absolute numbers of permanent immigrants and temporary workers, in Australia's history". Paul Sheehan, Sydney Morning Herald




well good for him - more taxpayers


----------



## MrBurns (5 August 2009)

Tink said:


> well good for him - more taxpayers




More wefare recipients.


----------



## Julia (5 August 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> So judging by your comments it is ok to be racist to white people as you refer to them as Anglo's.



Yes, do you not see the irony in this comment of yours TH?  If a similarly slang term was used to refer to people of other than caucasian descent in Australia, the terms 'racist' and 'bigot' would be trotted out again.

I guess it's popularly considered acceptable, though, to be self denigrating as distinct from critical of a group that is different.  A bit like the aborigines applying some of the old pejorative terms to themselves that once were ladled out by white people.





Agentm said:


> quick point on catholics?  are they equal in the eyes of god?
> 
> · That in Islam, women and men are considered equal in the eyes of God



What????   Considered equal?   When women are considered the property of men, are required to be fully covered up so as not to risk being a temptation to sins of the flesh by men and rarely have any equal political or financial rights in many muslim countries?   You can't seriously be postulating something so bizarre as suggesting this represents equality in the eyes of God or anyone else.


----------



## knocker (6 August 2009)

Echelon said:


> Rudd is "implementing the biggest immigration program since the end of WWII and the biggest intake, in absolute numbers of permanent immigrants and temporary workers, in Australia's history". Paul Sheehan, Sydney Morning Herald




which is happier?







or




	

		
			
		

		
	
or


----------



## queenslander55 (6 August 2009)

AgentM,  here is just a taste of the point I was trying to establish:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/06/2647302.htm


----------



## happytown (6 August 2009)

All contributors to this thread are hereby cordially invited by kevin rudd to attend the lodge for an awkward televised beer moment

please show your race cards at the gate

cheers 

another quality post brought to you by happytown inc
drug me with your fork machines


----------



## trainspotter (6 August 2009)

Hey Uncle Barry,

I have come out of retirement to put your mind at ease along with your apocryphal imputation in regards to my posts about the Reseve Bank.

#45 8.16pm Mentioned civillian attacks namely *Reserve Bank and K Mart* being a target.

#49 *8.26 pm* "You could walk through the corridors of the Reserve Bank blasting off shells and they would think it was the dinner bell." Accredited to my good self.

#52 8.29pm Mr Burns actually quotes the above and responds

#53 8.35pm "I was trying to suggest (and very poorly I must say) that I would rather have a red hot go at a civillian building where the nupties would think it was firecrackers or a car exhaust backfiring and come running closer to look." Me again. Because it is ALL about me.

*#57 8.49 pm* Uncle Barry goes on the attack due to my lack of knowledge in regards to the security measures at the Reserve Bank.

#59 8.57pm Refer UB back to post #53 for analogy.

#73 7.31am next day - UB responds with a perforated bowel syndome that is so twisted that it has turned his blue eyes brown.

Now in case you haven't noticed kiddies there is a "time out" edit function in here. Betweeen the post I edited because of spelling and the time Uncle Barry decided to respond was a full *23 MINUTES* Now unless I can bend the space time continuim to travel back in time or I have cracked the decoder on ASF edit limits I am not really sure what you are trying to say Uncle Barry.

Credibility in the minus? Is that it? Trick someone by changing a post because I have the ability of time travel? Belive me if I could do that I would not be banging away at the keyboard in here I can assure you!!

Now let me type REAL SLOW UB so you get it this time. I was referring to the fact that it would be unlikely that financially suited people who work in the Reserve Bank are UNLIKELY to recognise a GUN SHOT compared to the Army green people who WOULD be likely to be able to distinguish between a GUNSHOT and a CAR BACK FIRING. Nothing to do with security measures, nothing to do with making dopey statements or trying to trick anyone.

*So next time you decide to empty your spleen on the screen ensure you have taken the trouble to READ the posts prior to commenting. *

Thank you for your patience in this mater Uncle Barry as I know it must be of a tremendous concern that the Reserve Bank is sooooo well fortified that if I have a mobile phone in my pocket the other side of Martin Plaza I am likely to be arrested on some crazy terrorism charge of trying to walk through the Resrve Bank unloading shells ! Pffffffffffffttttttttttttt !

Now that I have sought my right of reply I will be off to the nether regions for a sabbatical of mammoth proportions. Au revoir, mes petits escargots.


----------



## disarray (6 August 2009)

we'll all be dead so we don't need to care right?


----------



## Fishbulb (6 August 2009)

What a sad thread. And we can thank the economic imperialism of The Corporation, America, and the rest of the western world. 

Ignorance breeds ignorance I suppose. Violence begets violence. etc etc.


----------



## queenslander55 (6 August 2009)

Fishbulb said:


> What a sad thread. And we can thank the economic imperialism of The Corporation, America, and the rest of the western world.
> 
> Ignorance breeds ignorance I suppose. Violence begets violence. etc etc.




...and apathy and misspent, misplaced well intentioned sympathy begets?


----------



## Uncle Barry (6 August 2009)

Train man.
Again, as you don't know what your talking about when it comes to the RBA, and I would suggest you go and stand outside the Building and act like your about to bust in shooting.

And then tell me I was wrong.

If that offends you, then toot, toot to you, (I think thats what trains say) 

UB
ps, I just happen to know a little than most on the subject.


----------



## Fishbulb (6 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> ...and apathy and misspent, misplaced well intentioned sympathy begets?




Hmm, I think the analogy about mushrooms, the one about being kept in the dark and fed bull****; low-brow analogy that it is. 

Hopefully an irritant will produce pearls.


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2009)

disarray said:


> we'll all be dead so we don't need to care right?




FYI: A BBC article debunking the Islamification of Europe

FWIW

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8189231.stm


----------



## queenslander55 (8 August 2009)

Fishbulb said:


> Hmm, I think the analogy about mushrooms, the one about being kept in the dark and fed bull****; low-brow analogy that it is.
> 
> Hopefully an irritant will produce pearls.




Well Fishy, you just keep on blissfully swimming around in your bowl of idealism and if (and I am not wishing this on you but) your modus operandi leads to you being directly affected by an act of terrorism perpetrated by the very group of 'misunderstood' souls whose cause you champion, please don't sit there and wonder why.


----------



## Tink (8 August 2009)

disarray said:


> we'll all be dead so we don't need to care right?




What a load of scaremongering in this thread..

Is that what Hitler did to brainwash those *fools*..


----------



## Uncle Barry (8 August 2009)

"Is that what Hitler did to brainwash those fools.. "

Yes and no.
Mr Hilter didn't do much with tricking the people with his message, a good and very clever doctor name Goebells did it for him.
Today we would call it 'spin'.

First the good doctor, took control of the media, radio and newspaper and worker groups,
to spread their selected message 
and then to take the people's minds of the events around then, 
he then introduced the Joy Program where 
they build huge stadiums 
and filled the news papers and media with messages about the sport stars of their country.  

Rather like the ABC is stacked with labour people, labour ex media sec's and have you noticed, even though the States are broke or almost they keep building monster sports stadiums the media is filled with messages about our wonderful sports stars.
And how 'things' are going to be hard but are getting better in the future.

If you ever have the time, its a interesting time spent reading a bit of history and how the same tools to control the people are being used time and time again for dareing to suggest this kind of thing could happen.
Today........

We can even reflect on how Pauline was attacked by the media and destroyed because she dared to start another party, but back then in the 30's she would have been shot.

Kind regards,
UB
the above is not to upset people but to make people take a think on how you are being all controlled.
Back then, I would be attacked and publicly rubbished.


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Mr Hilter didn't do much with tricking the people with his message, a good and very clever doctor name Goebells did it for him.
> Today we would call it 'spin'




Dr Goebbels perfected an understanding of the "Big Lie" technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses.

Mr Rudd and his "Spin Doctors" have adopted this technique with enthusiasm, and with a great deal of success.


----------



## queenslander55 (8 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Dr Goebbels perfected an understanding of the "Big Lie" technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses.
> 
> Mr Rudd and his "Spin Doctors" have adopted this technique with enthusiasm, and with a great deal of success.




What!!!  Howard didn't?  When will you wake up?

THEY ALL DO!!!!


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> What!!!  Howard didn't?  When will you wake up?
> 
> THEY ALL DO!!!!




Try and drag your mind into the present. Howard hating is old hat. Rudd hating is in vogue.


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> What!!!  Howard didn't?  When will you wake up?
> 
> THEY ALL DO!!!!




Not like Rudd he's the real thing, a dangerous little man with power.


----------



## Timmy (8 August 2009)

Tink said:


> What a load of scaremongering in this thread..
> 
> Is that what Hitler did to brainwash those *fools*..




Agree, with you Tink.

Another thing I don't get is these theories about control of the media - how relevant are these when the internet is absolutely loaded with dissenting opinions?


----------



## nioka (8 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> .
> Mr Rudd and his "Spin Doctors" have adopted this technique with enthusiasm, and with a great deal of success.




Some examples please!   'else your post becomes just.... spin!


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

nioka said:


> Some examples please!   'else your post becomes just.... spin!




Unless you havent noticed it's everything that comes out of his mouth.
he's asked a question and he ignores it and just rants on with the latest line ie: "we're not out of the woods yet" just to cover his backside.
He and all his scabby associates are given a line to push and they do it for weeks at a time untill something else comes up and the line is changed.


----------



## nioka (8 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Unless you havent noticed it's everything that comes out of his mouth.
> he's asked a question and he ignores it and just rants on with the latest line ie: "we're not out of the woods yet" just to cover his backside.
> He and all his scabby associates are given a line to push and they do it for weeks at a time untill something else comes up and the line is changed.




Is that an example or is it just.... ...................more spin. 

I'd still like at least one descriptive example.


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2009)

nioka said:


> Is that an example or is it just.... ...................more spin.
> 
> I'd still like at least one descriptive example.




Here's a few to go on with;

http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/kevin.htm


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

nioka said:


> Is that an example or is it just.... ...................more spin.
> 
> I'd still like at least one descriptive example.




Didn't you notice all of those no hopers saying that line for weeks ?

There was also one about "The is the biggest global financial blah blah" that went on for months and they all said the same words in the same order ad nauseum.

"The is the biggest education revolution etc" another one, and they've done sweet fa, no one can spell or add up and they do nothing but spin everything.


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Here's a few to go on with;
> 
> http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/kevin.htm




Nice web site


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

Gamblor said:


> more god bothering twats with too much time on their hands.




Probably because they lost their jobs under Labors expert economic management.

Oh gee he deleted the post I replied to, never mind it's saved for posterity in my reply


----------



## Gamblor (8 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Here's a few to go on with;
> 
> http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/kevin.htm




I have no respect for someone that puts up a page like that and doesn't have the courage to put their name on it.

typical liberal twat


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

Gamblor said:


> I have no respect for someone that puts up a page like that and doesn't have the courage to put their name on it.
> 
> typical liberal twat




But if the content is correct who cares ?

Let's face it you Labor bludgers will need the Libs to put things right again when Rudd's finished disgracing himself at our expence.


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2009)

Gamblor said:


> I have no respect for someone that puts up a page like that and doesn't have the courage to put their name on it.
> 
> typical liberal twat




Never mind. You'll get over it.


----------



## Gamblor (8 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> But if the content is correct who cares ?
> 
> Let's face it you Labor bludgers will need the Libs to put things right again when Rudd's finished disgracing himself at our expence.




I just think (regardless of content) when you present information in a public domain you put your name on it.


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

Gamblor said:


> I just think (regardless of content) when you present information in a public domain you put your name on it.




I agree with that.


----------



## Julia (8 August 2009)

MrBurns said:


> But if the content is correct who cares ?
> 
> .



I'm not so sure all the content is valid, Mr Burns.
I've just had a glance through the first section and there seems to be quite some twisting of facts and spin all of the author's own there.
Here is just one small example:



> "...that somehow we are anti-religion, is just wrong."
> 
> - Kevin Rudd, Sydney Morning Herald, November 7, 2004.






> The comprehensive Australian National University 2004 Australian election study shows that the category of voters by religion to identify most strongly with the ALP rather than with the Coalition was actually the "no religion" category




This is a misrepresentation of the ANU study results compared to what Mr Rudd did say.  To suggest that 'anti-religion' is the same as 'no religion' is misleading and mischievous.

I would fill in that section of a poll as having no religion but that does not make me anti-religion for other people.

I don't have any wish to defend anyone from the Labor Party, but I do support factual and objective reporting, not twisting and purposeful misinterpretation  of real comments.


----------



## MrBurns (8 August 2009)

Bless you Julia


----------



## Buckeroo (8 August 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> "Is that what Hitler did to brainwash those fools.. "
> 
> Yes and no.
> Mr Hilter didn't do much with tricking the people with his message, a good and very clever doctor name Goebells did it for him.
> ...




There's truth in your words UncB. And its been happening for quite some time. 

Conditioning is happening continuously through the media, advertising etc. Both governments & companies are doing it - advertising by companies have made younger generations the ultimate buying machine always getting them to want the next round of gadgets.

Overtime this has the effect of making us all the same, conditioning everyone to be a certain type of person, one without an original thought & not able to challenge the system....similar to what the terrorist leaders are doing?

Cheers


----------



## knocker (9 August 2009)

Look lets face it we need more terrorists in Melbourne and Sydney. Hopefully they will blow up lots of their own


----------



## trainspotter (9 August 2009)

nioka said:


> Is that an example or is it just.... ...................more spin.
> 
> I'd still like at least one descriptive example.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrVpsViArTE ..... for an example of SPIN at it's best. Ooooooer it comes unstuck. Take the 8 minutes and prepare to watch the wheels fall off .... LMAO .... Low Carbon Economy with Green Jobs.

Interviewer "Is it a job?"

Mark Arbib "Yes it is"

Interviewer "So they are on Centrelink payments doing work experience walking bush tracks and planting trees?"

Mark Arbib "Well ... er, no, ... well ... yes ... but they are employed"

Interviewer "No they are not ... It's a work for the dole scheme and is not 10,000 jobs at all"

Pffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttt ... I'll get back to you.


----------



## Sean K (9 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrVpsViArTE ..... for an example of SPIN at it's best. Ooooooer it comes unstuck. Take the 8 minutes and prepare to watch the wheels fall off .... LMAO .... Low Carbon Economy with Green Jobs.



Perhaps 2000 posts will be your limit, Spotter of Trains?


----------



## Buckeroo (9 August 2009)

kennas said:


> Perhaps 2000 posts will be your limit, Spotter of Trains?




Aha, Your obviously worried about your status of having over 10700 posts? You will have to spend a bit more time on ASF to maintain your position.

Cheers


----------



## Fishbulb (10 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> Well Fishy, you just keep on blissfully swimming around in your bowl of idealism and if (and I am not wishing this on you but) your modus operandi leads to you being directly affected by an act of terrorism perpetrated by the very group of 'misunderstood' souls whose cause you champion, please don't sit there and wonder why.




Yes, quite. Of course. You make it all so clear and simple. Best of luck with the "half baked notion" of not only what I post, but of the rest of the world and how it operates.


----------



## queenslander55 (10 August 2009)

Fishbulb said:


> Yes, quite. Of course. You make it all so clear and simple. Best of luck with the "half baked notion" of not only what I post, but of the rest of the world and how it operates.




You're very welcome.


----------



## trainspotter (10 August 2009)

kennas said:


> Perhaps 2000 posts will be your limit, Spotter of Trains?




Could be the start of a beautiful friendship, Prowler of Kennas.


----------

