# Petition for regional Qld daylight saving trial - ends 10th November



## sails (8 November 2007)

*For Queensland residents only*:

I received an email yesterday regarding Qld Government E-Petition which is currently available to bring back daylight savings (on a trial basis) in Queensland, so thought I would pass the info on here should any others be interested. 

The petition closes on 10 November, so if you support daylight savings, you can sign the petition which is available at the site below and let as many people know as possible. 

The petition is on the Queensland Government's Parliament Petitions website. 
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/CurrentEPetition.aspx?PetNum=931


Here are a couple of excerpts from the email:



> This urgent petition requires as many signatures as possible and we encourage people to please forward this e-mail on to other Queenslanders who stand to benefit from daylight saving prior to the closing date being November 10th, 2007.
> 
> Following the late discovery of this petition (no mention of it in media), we'll be working 24/7 for Queensland voters to access it.







> State wide daylight saving will NEVER be introduced by any political party.
> 
> However the Government research showed that a third of Queenslanders under the age of 35 (and a quarter overall) had NEVER heard of regional daylight saving.
> 
> ...




Cheers


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## Smurf1976 (8 November 2007)

40 years later and we're _still_ arguing about daylight saving in Australia.

I can see both sides of the argument in a place such as Qld (though it's hard to find anything but positives in Vic / Tas). But to my understanding quite a few businesses in Qld have adjusted their working hours and, in practice, their employees are already living a daylight savings lifestyle whether they realise it or not.

(Better keep out of Qld affairs otherwise my curtains will be faded and the cows will stop milking...).


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## numbercruncher (8 November 2007)

Biggest problem besides whinging farmers is that Qld is so big, It might be daylight on the Gold Coast starting 430am in summer but still dark in say mt isa, they need to divide the state for time zones i thinks.


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## moneymajix (8 November 2007)

NO!


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## 2020hindsight (8 November 2007)

good enough for Broome


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## blueroo (8 November 2007)

Unfortunately, the Queensland media has a voracious appetite and to fill their fish and chip wrappers and airwaves, you can be sure the same old daylight saving story rears its tiresome head in October every year.

One wonders how business in WA has survived being 2 hours behind the east coast. If you listen to the daylight saving promoters in Qld, business here is at a severe disadvantage. What rot!

Odd that there is no petition *against* daylight saving.


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## robandcoll (8 November 2007)

I am from WA - Dont do it. QLD is the same as WA and we get heaps of sunshine. We do not need anymore


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## Whiskers (8 November 2007)

robandcoll said:


> I am from WA - Dont do it. QLD is the same as WA and we get heaps of sunshine. We do not need anymore




I'm from country QLD and I agree with robandcoll. 

Why should we have to suffer inconvienience to appease people who can't manage their time properly or just plain live in the wrong place.

What's with you people who want to fiddle with the time! 

If there is not enough daylight where you are, move to somewhere where there is... like so many other southeners who are migrating to QLD.

Do you realise how much trouble you cause us in the rest of Aus when we try to deal interstate... stuffing around with different times.

It seems the main arguement used to justify the Daylight Saving Time notion is that a majority of people wants it. Well, the majority of people thought the world was flat once and they were wrong too.


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## doctorj (8 November 2007)

robandcoll said:


> we get heaps of sunshine. We do not need anymore



I'm fairly certain, the WA Govt didn't ask the sun to extend its hours of sunshine on our great state.  The point of daylight saving is that it "shifts" the hours of sunshine relative to the majority's working hours such that they can be better enjoyed/utilised.

A big fan of daylight saving here - I can go the beach and do the gardening after work in daylight.  I don't feel like I'm risking life and limb 'finding 30' on the old push bike in the evenings.

How are your curtains?


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## shaunnell (8 November 2007)

Why don't the opponents let the proponents have their 'day in the sun' trial.  If its so bad we can then go back to no daylight savings for another 20 years until it rears its head again.


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## Smurf1976 (8 November 2007)

Is anyone up to take advantage of daylight at 4am?

Or have I missed the point?


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## numbercruncher (8 November 2007)

Smurf1976 said:


> Is anyone up to take advantage of daylight at 4am?
> 
> Or have I missed the point?




Yah opposite direction Smurf, here on the GC, its light at 430am in Summer and dark at like 6pm or so, alot of us fancy having daybreak at 530am and some more light for the evening .....


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## Whiskers (8 November 2007)

shaunnell said:


> Why don't the opponents let the proponents have their 'day in the sun' trial.  If its so bad we can then go back to no daylight savings for another 20 years until it rears its head again.




You can. Just get up or go to work an hour earlier, (talk to your employer or negotiate a workplace agreement) without disrupting the rest of us that manage to work with nature just fine.

As doctor J says



> The point of daylight saving is that it "shifts" the hours of sunshine relative to the majority's working hours such that they can be better enjoyed/utilised.




Same to you Doc. Just change your working hours or if more sunshine is more important move to where there is more sunshine. 

There are many people particularly in rural Aus whose livelihood and work is determined by the natural cycle of things. Why do they have to suffer inconveince because you can't organise yourself to live in the natural cycle of things? 

Why should we have to suffer unnecessary inconvienence in our daily work, our liveihood, just to give you a bit more free time in the afternoon, again I reiterate, because you cannot manage you time well or you chose to live in the wrong place?

I notice you state your self interest in wanting so called Daylight Saving Time in the afternoon, but heh, I and plenty others like a bit of sunshine in the morning too.

The weather and time is just fine here in Qld as it is. Just move to QLD (or WA or NT) and 'do unto others as you wish they do unto you'.


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## Whiskers (8 November 2007)

Smurf1976 said:


> Is anyone up to take advantage of daylight at 4am?




Too right Smurf, and it is very refreshing. 

I tell you what, come and visit QLD and stay on a working property or a fishing boat for a few days and you will love the early mornings.


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## doctorj (8 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Same to you Doc. Just change your working hours or if more sunshine is more important move to where there is more sunshine.



Unless the majority of my clients also change working hours, changing isn't an option.  Also, there are plenty of hours of sunshine - just I'd rather have them after work than before.



Whiskers said:


> There are many people particularly in rural Aus whose livelihood and work is determined by the natural cycle of things. Why do they have to suffer inconveince because you can't organise yourself to live in the natural cycle of things?



I'm all confused by this arguement.  Maybe it's just my ignorance - but how does one hour destroy the natural 'cycle of things'? For eg. if the cows are used to being milked at 11am... why not just milk them at 10?  I doubt they keep time.



Whiskers said:


> Why should we have to suffer unnecessary inconvienence in our daily work, our liveihood, just to give you a bit more free time in the afternoon, again I reiterate, because you cannot manage you time well or you chose to live in the wrong place?



It's not about managing time or the location I live.



Whiskers said:


> I notice you state your self interest in wanting so called Daylight Saving Time in the afternoon, but heh, I and plenty others like a bit of sunshine in the morning too.



And I note you do as well.  Just as well we live in a democracy!


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## Whiskers (8 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> Unless the majority of my clients also change working hours, changing isn't an option.  Also, there are plenty of hours of sunshine - just I'd rather have them after work than before.




I understand your situation Doc, but my GP has a private practice and he organises to have an afternoon off ocassionally, and or take appointments earlier on an odd occassion to get a haircut and do other things. What is so set in stone that you can't change your hours? 



> It's not about managing time or the location I live.




If it is not about this, what is it about?



> I'm all confused by this arguement.  Maybe it's just my ignorance - but how does one hour destroy the natural 'cycle of things'? For eg. if the cows are used to being milked at 11am... why not just milk them at 10?  I doubt they keep time.




Dairy cows aren't usually mustered up to come to the dairy in the mornings and afternoon, they are trained to be there at those times for their feed at which time they are milked. So when the southern states change to Daylight Saving Time and the milk processer is across the border or has to change their schedule to meet further commitments the milk tanker comes an hour earlier in the morning, but the cows don't know that and can't be trained to be an hour earlier on a certain day. And it goes further than that, sometimes if you have to muster the cows to hurry them up, they can get tense and won't let their milk down until they settle. Simillarly, in the afternoon, the cows need to be an hour earlier, milking when it is a bit hotter.

But apart from the cows, parents face problems trying to adjust their timetable to get the kids to school an hour earlier while they are still trying to get the milking finished.

But it's not just dairy farmers. Freight companies have to change timetables to meet fruit and veg markets in the south, so it means that growers have to get their days work done in an hour less time to meet the freight to catch the markets, cos some city people may not know that milk comes from cows (not cartons) and fruit and veg is much preferably harvested, precooled and transported in the same day to be at the markets overnight and in the grocer's the next morning, fresh.

There are similar implications for many other industries and occupations.


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## doctorj (8 November 2007)

It's good to know there is some reason.  A thought occurs though - if the milk tankers come earlier when it's DST in the southern states, wouldn't it be handier if there were also DST in your area so you can still get kids off to school?


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> It's good to know there is some reason.  A thought occurs though - if the milk tankers come earlier when it's DST in the southern states, wouldn't it be handier if there were also DST in your area so you can still get kids off to school?




No, because if we had DST we would also have the additional problem of school starting an hour earlier and trying to get the kids organised while trying to finish milking like in the DST states. Whereas in Qld the cows and school are still in sync, it's just the freight and business times takes an hour out of our day.

By the way, I am not in the dairy industry myself anymore, but I still have some exposure to the fruit and veg industry. 

When I fully convert to investing and or trading, I suppose it won't bother me much either, but I think I would still support those whom it did affect.

PS. Have I won the debate yet?


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## sails (9 November 2007)

I believe this petition is requesting a trial for South East Queensland ONLY.  So this shouldn't affect the cows or farmers  - and might even spare the curtains 

There are clearly inconveniences on both sides of the DLS fence...

Here is an excerpt from a word document included with the email I received (whole document file size is too large to upload to ASF) with more info on the statistics and reasoning behind the petition for a trial period.  

Please note the last paragraph is clear in not supporting DLS beyond the South East region. 



> *SUMMARY*
> 
> South-eastern Queensland is ideally positioned to benefit from daylight saving.
> 
> ...




But hey, I'm not the organiser, and only posted the info I received by email together with the petition link should anyone else like to register their vote!  

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/CurrentEPetition.aspx?

LOL, don't shoot the messenger :couch


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## doctorj (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> PS. Have I won the debate yet?



Not really.  I agree its likely that it will inconvenience a small number of people and there will be some mighty confused cows around while they get used to the change over.  Hopefully a small number of people's lack of flexibility won't prevent the majority from enjoying daylight saving in Qld.

The WA cows seem to be surviving.


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## Duckman#72 (9 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> Not really.   Hopefully a small number of people's lack of flexibility won't prevent the majority from enjoying daylight saving in Qld.




Hopefully it never comes in. 

I play golf in the mornings and am back at home, showered and helping to gets kids ready for school by 7:00am. Not as easy to do with DLS. Even now without DLS, I can leave work at 5:00 (yeah right!!) and have 1.5 hours of sunlight before dark sets in properly. Heaps of time for gardening and kicking the footy.

Not everyone wants the sunlight at the end of the day. And as a parent of 4 children - let me tell you - I don't!!! 

Just as others cannot see why you would NOT want it - I cannot see why you WOULD want it.


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## shaunnell (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> You can. Just get up or go to work an hour earlier, (talk to your employer or negotiate a workplace agreement) without disrupting the rest of us that manage to work with nature just fine.




Not as easy as you suggest.  Our company, like many others, have a headoffice in Sydney.  Others will have their headoffice in Melbourne.  Even others may not have a headoffice but have customers, suppliers and business contacts in those states.  If QLD adopted DLS then the whole Easter Seaboard would be on the same time all year around.

Sure, some people may be disadvantaged but this is a democracy and the majority want it.  We should at least triall it!

The only argument against DLS is surfers cannot get their morning surf in before work   I suppose they could always go for an evening surf.


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## MS+Tradesim (9 November 2007)

Since i trade the ASX and it runs on DLS it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. However, as a political issue in QLD...


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

shaunnell said:


> We should at least triall it!




We have trialed it in Qld... and the notion of two time zones in Qld has been mooted before too. 



> Not as easy as you suggest. Our company, like many others, have a headoffice in Sydney.  Others will have their headoffice in Melbourne.  Even others may not have a headoffice but have customers, suppliers and business contacts in those states.






That gets back to my original point. If you live somewhere or work in a job that makes it hard to manage your time the way you want, you should get a job somewhere where you can have more time in the afternoon, if that is so important to you. I have changed jobs for lifestyle as have many others. 



> If QLD adopted DLS then the whole Easter Seaboard would be on the same time all year around.




If you read my earlier post you would see that adversely affects many rural industries effectively taking an hour out of their working day... so you can have an extra hour of leasure. That's hardly democratic or fair is it! Why should anyone have to suffer inconveinance to appease someone can't organise their lifestyle well!



> The only argument against DLS is surfers cannot get their morning surf in before work   I suppose they could always go for an evening surf.




Now you are starting to get irrisponsible and a bit disparaging to people who can manage their lives well... and I might add Doctor J's last post was a bit too.  

Since you mention surfing it is more dangerous surfing in the late afternoon because of more likelihood of a shark attack... thats why surfers generally surf in the morning. Anyway, you have the time management problem... you get bloody motivated and get out of bed an hour earlier.

Look... I have to say some of the reasons you people advocating DST put up to justify you inability to manage your time well or because you have made job decisions that are incompatable with your recreation requirements range from dumb, illinformed to just plain dangerous.

It seems you people not only want us who manage quite well to suffer  severe disruptions to our livelihood and daily routines and add in additional unecessary risks to safety just to appease you and your whims.



> Sure, some people may be disadvantaged but this is a democracy and the majority want it.




Democrecy is more than an election and majority of numbers. As I said before 


> Well, the majority of people thought the world was flat once and they were wrong too.



 and there are many other examples.

Democracy is about the rule of law and common law principles of right and respect for others and common decency.

If you cannot organise your life well... that is your disadvantage... live with it or change your circumstances like so many other people  have... that is democracy and justice.

It is quite obvious that most if not all those who advocate DST don't give a damn about the adverse effects or the rights of the rest.

EDIT: Spot on MS+Tradesim. A nice irony that it is a horse.


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## gfresh (9 November 2007)

I'm all for it .. "get up earlier".. no.. I'm a night person, I get up at 7am and would enjoy an extra hour of light to do activities in a 9-5 job. Call me lazy if you like, but I'm up until 1am many nights. I'm not loathe to change the habbits of my last 20 years, as would anybody that is used to not having daylight savings time. So where is the difference? We are just arguing two different sides of who should be the one to change based on our own habbits! Majority lives in cities, majority has the say. You'll probably also find the majority these days in S.EQ has also come from Sydney and Melbourne, who also are used to it. 

While we're there about time QLD got rid of the archiac half trading hours of Australia and the rest of the world in fact. Supermarkets closed at 5pm on a weekend, what a joke. 

More opening hours = more jobs, more growth, more money for the economy.



> It is quite obvious that most if not all those who advocate DST don't give a damn about the adverse effects or the rights of the rest.




No, and you don't give a damn about the people that may like daylight savings time, and disregarding the advantages it may offer. Same perspective, you're just on the other side of the fence!


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## doctorj (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Democrecy is more than an election and majority of numbers. As I said before and there are many other examples.



I like the horse cartoon too.  And since I live in WA, what happens in Qld is moot.   That said, I wonder why you consider it a "time management" issue for city folk and an unavoidable thing for farmers.

Often people don't like change, particularly in Australia.  Sometimes I wonder if it's the change people don't like or the idea of change itself.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

gfresh said:


> I'm all for it .. "get up earlier".. no.. I'm a night person, I get up at 7am and would enjoy an extra hour of light to do activities in a 9-5 job. Call me lazy if you like, but I'm up until 1am many nights. I'm not loathe to change the habbits of my last 20 years,




I presume you got your grammar wrong and meant 'I'm loathe to change...'.

You keep demonstrating that you are lazy (your words), and unwilling to change your lifestyle, and would rather have the rest of the world change to suit you. That is selfish and inconsiderate as well as unwilling to make better time management decisions.



> While we're there about time QLD got rid of the archiac half trading hours of Australia and the rest of the world in fact. Supermarkets closed at 5pm on a weekend, what a joke.
> 
> More opening hours = more jobs, more growth, more money for the economy.




So... you want more time off for leasure, but you want others in Qld to give up there night and weekend leasure time to work extra hours to suit you. Talk about the height of selfishness and hypocricy.   

Why don't you come up here and work those extra hours at night or weekend then! Talk about bloody poor time management. If you cant get to the supermarket between 8.00am and 9.00pm weekdays and 5.00pm saturdays you really do deserve a medal for imcompetent time management.

Your economics is as lousy as your DST arguement. I think there is an odd 24 hr supermarket where it is warranted. In some cases shopping hours have been shortened because it was unprofitable, except for the major supermarkets who prictice preditory pricing. The can afford to run at a loss for awhile to force small business out of business, then when they have no competition they put the prices up higher.



> Majority lives in cities, majority has the say.




I have already pointed out the falasy of that 'dumb' arguement.

You would do well to remember where you water, food, building materials etc and much of the nations wealth comes from, not to mention where your rubbish and sewerage goes to, before you start ranting on that line too much.

I'll spell it out for you. Cities are hopelessly unsustainable places to live independantly. You don't even have the basics for living without the goodwill and cooperation of rural folks. Another point often missed by folks like you, using your divide of city v country, is that much more national wealth is generated from rural areas than city areas. Even the banks and big financial institutions depend on something from rural areas for their turnover.



> No, and you don't give a damn about the people that may like daylight savings time, and disregarding the advantages it may offer. Same perspective, you're just on the other side of the fence!




No, it is not the same perspective from a different side of the fence at all. We work quite well with the natural order of time and don't want any thing different. You are the one wanting to change the time, but not your lifestyle decisions. You won't succeed screwing the facts around trying to play guilt tricks on us. 

The fundamental fact is that TRUE time is fixed... that's how nature is.

It is not time that is being changed, it is just the perception of time that you want changed because you can't or won't organise yourself to get to bed early enough and or too lazy to get up a bit earlier in the morning. 

All it boils down to is that you want to reshedule the world around you because, as you admit, you are lazy and won't make the necessary reasonable decisions about changing your own lifestyle, but are happy to make others change their lifestyle and suffer inconvience to suit your selfishness and incompetance.


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2007)

Why doesn't the Qld government put the issue to a referendum if they can't work it out? Since the proposal only relates to SE Qld, only those in that part of the state would vote and those elsewhere would have nothing to worry about.


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> If you cant get to the supermarket between 8.00am and 9.00pm weekdays and 5.00pm saturdays you really do deserve a medal for imcompetent time management.



It's not unusual that I'm at work for ALL of that time period. I find it very hard to believe that there wouldn't be some in Qld in that same situation.

As for the shopping hours, Tasmania went through this argument a few years ago. All the "doom and gloom" arguments from the small shopkeepers turned out to be more about keeping the whole state in the 1990's "doom and gloom" recession than anything else. Shopping hours were deregulated and an economic boom followed (though I'm not arguing as a direct result). And there's still plenty of small shops - only now they can't completely rip off the consumers as they used to.

Farmers etc down here aren't that keen on it. But as they long ago acknowledged, it's what the majority wants and they can't expect to have everything they way they want it. Most of they just seem to have changed their working hours to suit - still plenty of visible farm activity until sunset. Only thing that still seems to upset them is the shorter period of DST in Victoria creating different time zones but that's about to be fixed next season.


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## nioka (9 November 2007)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not unusual that I'm at work for ALL of that time period. I find it very hard to believe that there wouldn't be some in Qld in that same situation.




Regardless of daylight saving you should get another job. Vote for Rudd and you may not have to work those hours. You need time for living too. There isn't all that much of it, don't waste a minute.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> I like the horse cartoon too.  And since I live in WA, what happens in Qld is moot.   That said, I wonder why you consider it a "time management" issue for city folk and an unavoidable thing for farmers.
> 
> Often people don't like change, particularly in Australia.  Sometimes I wonder if it's the change people don't like or the idea of change itself.




Yeah doc, I think a dislike for change has a lot to do with it in many cases. And while we understand the prima facie arguement put foreward for DST, I think many rural folk would support chance if there was a significant national benifit from the change eg that a lot of extra tourist dollars would flow into extra taxes for the benifit of all. 

In reality I think why the Gold Coast is so supportive of the idea is because it gives the, pubs, clubs and casinos disproportionately more business, with the resultant drunkeness and violence and social issues with problem gambling. Many Qld'ers now consider the Gold Coast CBD, and to some extent Cairns CBD as too touristy with a cold unfriendly enviornment and crime like the infamous Kings Cross or LA atmosphere and won't go there, much preferring other places. If my memory is correct the liquor trading hours were shortened on the gold coast because of the drunkeness and violence.

There has been certain unscroupulous tourist operators who litterally control the itenerary of tourists so tightly that they don't allow them to go to shops of their choice, they guide them to certain businesses that are part of the network. The integrity of those businesses has been questioned in regard to under the counter sales. The other tourist operators that are not part of the particular international 'guided' tours network appreciate DST to try to get more business from locals.

So on balance the financial gain is beat up by tourist operators and the social degredation is glossed over. 

Doc, the reason it is a _time_ management issue is by definition it is the management of the daily schedule that is being manipulated, in the guise of DST. And a _management_ issue because it is the management of the daily schedule (time) they are changing for everyone. That is why it is unavoidable for farmers etc.

The definition of management is_ the process of coordinating activities so they are completed efficiently and effectively._

To my understanding of manegerial training, the coordination of daily schedules, as DST, needs to be completed efficiently and effectively. To do that it should not interfere with the efficiency and effectiveness of those who do not want DST. So the obvious good management solution is for the people who claim to be leisure time short in the afternoons and have a need to reschedule their time, should change just their schedule as opposed to everyone else's schedule in the form of DST.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not unusual that I'm at work for ALL of that time period.




Geez smurf, thats 13 hrs a day.  Daylight saving ain't going to help you, cos you ain't got any leisure time, unless you don't sleep. 

I'm afraid I concur with nioka, because I have been there like many farmers and small business people, but you need to change jobs and enjoy life a bit. :

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that once you start creating different time zones in a state, where exactly do you draw the line and where does it stop.

Many years ago, I think it was around the time we had DST, the north was threatening to split off and form a new state because they were getting a raw deal with all the development etc happening in the SE. So you can understand why the Gov is treading carefully. Some dislusional Gold Coast politicians still think they are the the lifeblood of Qld and probably a state in their own right.


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## sails (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> ...EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that once you start creating different time zones in a state, where exactly do you draw the line and where does it stop....




Hmmm Whiskers, currently the line not only divides the densly populated Twin Towns, but also divides Coolangatta airport, including the runway as well!  

Ever spared a thought for the folks who live on one side of the line and work on the other?  Many people have been putting up with the associated difficulties and inconvenience for years, especially when the line runs though dense population.  Nothing about laziness, just practicality.

Anyway, for those that would like still to add their support for the trial - the e-petition ends tomorrow - here is the link again. http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/CurrentEPetition.aspx?PetNum=931

Time is running out so make sure to email any friends with the petition link to give everyone in favour an opportunity to have their say.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

sails said:


> Hmmm Whiskers, currently the line not only divides the densly populated Twin Towns, but also divides Coolangatta airport, including the runway as well!
> 
> Ever spared a thought for the folks who live on one side of the line and work on the other?  Many people have been putting up with the associated difficulties and inconvenience for years, especially when the line runs though dense population.  Nothing about laziness, just practicality.




Sorry Sails, but I don't have to feel guilty about that. Afterall it is the advocates of DST in the southern states that upset the status quo and natural order of things. 

Fair dinkim mate. Some of these lines are akin to the preverbial 'blonde' jokes.

It's like you crashing into my parked car and blaming me for your accident.

I refer you to the definition of good management from above.


> The definition of management is the process of coordinating activities so they are completed efficiently and effectively.
> 
> To my understanding of manegerial training, the coordination of daily schedules, as DST, needs to be completed efficiently and effectively. To do that it should not interfere with the efficiency and effectiveness of those who do not want DST. So the obvious good management solution is for the people who claim to be leisure time short in the afternoons and have a need to reschedule their time, should change just their schedule as opposed to everyone else's schedule in the form of DST.


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## doctorj (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Afterall it is the advocates of DST in the southern states that upset the status quo and natural order of things.



Remember time is arbitary and invented by man - its not a natural occurance.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> Remember time is arbitary and invented by man - its not a natural occurance.




Geez Doc, I'll have to give you 100% for persistance... for something.... maybe nit picking. 

Now lets see... I'm not expert in this field, but how does this sound?

I would say that 'time' is a dimension of our universe, that has always existed, so in that sense it is a natural occurance. What man did was put a name of measure on it... so we could relate things in time. 

In that sense it as arbitary, but in the sense that man designed that measure of time so that it could be and is universally accepted as a standard... it is not arbitary, but reasoned. :


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## doctorj (9 November 2007)

We'll never agree, I'm for it and you're not. It's one of those things where the results are subjective and heavily depend on your frame of reference.

8pm and still light here. With any luck I'll make it home before dark!  Hurrah for daylight saving


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## shaunnell (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> We have trialed it in Qld... and the notion of two time zones in Qld has been mooted before too.
> 
> That gets back to my original point. If you live somewhere or work in a job that makes it hard to manage your time the way you want, you should get a job somewhere where you can have more time in the afternoon, if that is so important to you. I have changed jobs for lifestyle as have many others.




But most in the city support so do you suggest everyone just quits and finds another job...

Unfortunately there are people that will not be swayed, who feel they have the only answer and the God given right; who are arrogant and ignorant of the plight of others so I will not try and convince them anymore.  If the rural folk in NSW, VIC, ACT and Tasmania can cope I am sure the QLD ones can too.

I am sure the DLS petition will fail but that will not stop the fight.

As mentioned before, I have never heard a petition in a DLS practicing state requiring DLS be abolished...


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

shaunnell said:


> But most in the city support so do you suggest everyone just quits and finds another job...




No, because they all manage without DST for nine months of the year. It's just when the the DST advocates push it they pick up a lot of freeloaders who will take it just because they can, but most of them won't fight tooth and nail for it because they have an understanding and empathy for the people that it disadvantages.



> Unfortunately there are people that will not be swayed, who feel they have the only answer and the God given right; who are arrogant and ignorant of the plight of others




Quite true.



> so I will not try and convince them anymore.




Now you got twisted with the guilt tricks again just in the last little bit.



> If the rural folk in NSW, VIC, ACT and Tasmania can cope I am sure the QLD ones can too.




The cope because they had to. That doesn't mean they agree with it or wouldn't change it if they could.



> I am sure the DLS petition will fail...




Yes.



> ...but that will not stop the fight.




Pity. You could use that time for whatever you want the extra time in the afternoon for, and therefore you will have less need for DST.



> As mentioned before, I have never heard a petition in a DLS practicing state requiring DLS be abolished




Actually I have heard calls from people in the southern states wanting to abolish it. Maybe you only keep company with like minded people. Or maybe you come on too heavy with the 'dumb blond' spin  and turn people off from talking to you.


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## 2020hindsight (9 November 2007)

Duckman#72 said:


> Hopefully it never comes in.
> I play golf in the mornings and am back at home, showered and helping to gets kids ready for school by 7:00am.
> 
> I can leave work at 5:00 (yeah right!!) and have 1.5 hours of sunlight before dark sets in properly. Heaps of time for gardening and kicking the footy.



I went to Scotland once - played a round of 18 holes after dinner !  
but don't recall doing any gardening before breakfast the next day though 

between longest and shortest day there are 5 hours difference in hours of sunlight (Sydney latitude).  
i.e. at Xmas, the sun rises 1.25 hours earlier than "mean" and sets 1.25 hours later than "mean"  etc - 
i.e. summer : sun rises roughly 6-1h15m = 4.45am, sets 6+1h15m = 7.15pm
with DLS this becomes rises 5.45am sets 8.15pm.   (yes!!) 

(spring forward, fall back etc)

I personally reckon its great to make use of those hours as a package at the end of the day - rather than split between two smaller parcels. 

I personally really look forward to daylight saving - take the pooch to the beach after work etc. 

But hey - it's a democracy, and you blokes do what you (collectively) like.  

Duck, - in your case ! - you might even consider the opposite - daylight saving in the mornings!  - i.e. "spring (clocks go) back" ,  "fall (clocks go) forward"  - 

that way, in summer you could play a full 18 holes of golf before breakfast mate


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## Whiskers (9 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I personally really look forward to daylight saving - take the pooch to the beach after work etc.




Carefull 2020, sharks are more active in close in the evening and they like little pooches that puddle in the water. 

You better vote vote against DST and take the little pooch to the beach in the morning. :


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## 2020hindsight (9 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Carefull 2020, sharks are more active in close in the evening and they like little pooches that puddle in the water.
> 
> You better vote vote against DST and take the little pooch to the beach in the morning. :



ok m8 - 
I'll throw in a few cats as "bully"  - or rather as something to keep the sharks busy while I rescue the dog 

PS Not sure your theory stands up to close scrutiny -  I recall a shark attack at Noosa back in the 60's - early one morning - pre- breakfast.  The shark bit off a bloke's leg whilst he was on a board.  - when he made it to the beach, the shark beached itself chasing the blood trail up the sand 

I presume "pooch puddling" is something like "dog paddling"


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## Duckman#72 (9 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Duck, - in your case ! - you might even consider the opposite - daylight saving in the mornings!  - i.e. "spring (clocks go) back" ,  "fall (clocks go) forward"  -
> 
> that way, in summer you could play a full 18 holes of golf before breakfast mate




Now you're talking 2020!! 

Although give it another month and I'll be able to play 18 holes before work anyway!!! 

Did someone in this thread say that in summer on the GC the sun goes down by 6:00-30pm? What crap!!!

Duckman


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## 2020hindsight (9 November 2007)

Duckman#72 said:


> Now you're talking 2020!!
> 
> Although give it another month and I'll be able to play 18 holes before work anyway!!!



well don't try it on a cold winter morning - losing your balls is no fun. 


like the joke about Ray charles betting some bloke a round - and insisting they play at night etc etc


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## 2020hindsight (10 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Carefull 2020, sharks are more active in close in the evening and they like little pooches that puddle in the water.



one thing about shark attacks whisk - there's no point in worrying about it - the one that gets you, you won't know anything about anyways - goes for (most) dogs as well  

Dog Attacks Shark


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## Smurf1976 (10 November 2007)

nioka said:


> Regardless of daylight saving you should get another job. Vote for Rudd and you may not have to work those hours. You need time for living too. There isn't all that much of it, don't waste a minute.



I don't do those hours all the time but it's reality. Doesn't bother me at the moment but I wouldn't want to be 60 and still doing it that's for sure. The good point is lots of days off and nobody gives a damn about deciding to have two hours for lunch etc. Staff turnover is pretty low.

There are quite a few jobs with unpredictable working hours. Fire fighters, police, doctors etc can unexpectedly end up working incredibly long hours. Even powerline workers (not what I do) end up sleeping on the ground next to the truck (since it's more comfortable than trying to sleep in the truck) rather than waste time travelling home when there's major damage to repair. 

All those people benefit from having shops that actually open when the customers want them to.


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## 2020hindsight (10 November 2007)

PS Smurf made a great point on another thread - why the hell aren't the 6 months of daylight saving (in those states that use it) equally positioned around the longest day (22 Dec)?  I had just assumed that was the case until he pointed it out lol - god we're idiots  



> http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/dst_times.shtml
> in 1967 we had more sense !! (at least in Tas)..
> 1 Oct  = 2.8 months before
> and goes till 31 Mar = 3.2 months after
> ...




These days, Tasmania is still the most logical ...
7 Oct  = 2.5 months before
and goes till 6 Apr = 3.5 months after.

VIC, ACT, NSW, SA
28 Oct  = 2 months before
and goes till 6 Apr = 3.5 months after.

WA is different again ..
28 Oct  = 2 months before
and goes till 30Mar = 3 months after.


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## 2020hindsight (10 November 2007)

btw - 
DLS HELPED US WIN 2 WARS!! 
(or was that a coincidence ?) 

(I think that's called "playing the RSL card" )


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## Smurf1976 (10 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> btw -
> DLS HELPED US WIN 2 WARS!!
> (or was that a coincidence ?)
> 
> (I think that's called "playing the RSL card" )



Also helped win the war against power cuts in 1967-68 in Tas. Indeed that was the sole reason it was introduced - it had nothing at all to do with lifestyle. 

The actual power saving is only about 0.25% but doing something that was then considered drastic and war-like was a means of ramming home the "switch off" message. Daylight savings and numerous other emergency measures were implemented without debate and almost without warning.


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## doctorj (10 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> DLS HELPED US WIN 2 WARS!!



Clearly the cows didn't play a very big part 

Won't somebody think of the cows!


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## sails (10 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Sorry Sails, but I don't have to feel guilty about that. Afterall it is the advocates of DST in the southern states that upset the status quo and natural order of things…..



No need to feel guilty, Whiskers – just hoping you might realise there is another view point that some people are genuinely disadvantaged with the current situation and would like to see change.

With Qld out of sync with the other South Eastern states for six months of the year, it can also negatively impact work efficiency and effectiveness  - it's just not all about leisure!


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## 2020hindsight (10 November 2007)

doctorj said:


> Clearly the cows didn't play a very big part
> 
> Won't somebody think of the cows!




lol,  -  you're talking about those old fashioned cows doc?  

These days they have these cows which are much more cosmopolitan than they used to be 

when it comes to DLS, it depends how far "down udder" you live


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## Stan 101 (10 November 2007)

Personally I don't care either way on fantasy time (daylight savings). If I was to be pushed, I'd not change for the reason I prefer the extra light in the morning. IN the north it takes that bit longer to start cooling down those few extra degrees at night. So if there was DLS it would be just that bit warmer trying to get to sleep. No real issue, though...

From a business point of view it is a royal pain to effectively lose 2 hours trading with both NSW and VIC. Especially in high population places like the Gold Coast. Burleigh is still on QLD time and drive south a few KM and it's NSW time.

As for the person who posted earlier about WA not having an issue with business being 2 hours difference, that is true. It is also true that there is a vast difference in location to the eastern states.. You don't drive 20km to be in a new time zone.

How about splitting QLD time zone in summer west of say 100km west of Charters Tower? Do the math on where to break the time zone so the least amount of people ar affected..It really wouldn't be that difficult.


cheers,


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## gfresh (10 November 2007)

> Why don't you come up here and work those extra hours at night or weekend then! Talk about bloody poor time management. If you cant get to the supermarket between 8.00am and 9.00pm weekdays and 5.00pm saturdays you really do deserve a medal for imcompetent time management.




I do live up here? I work 12 hours a day sometimes (because I'm lazy I guess ), and finding the time to shop during daylight hours is difficult.. I also tend to find that on the weekends, I usually find the supermarkets crowded with the very elderly, slow, and an inconvenient use of my time queing for the checkout. They are quite used to 1960, and do not wish to change. Thankfully I live right near the border, and I can just duck across the border to get the convenience I require with later shopping hours. Why I have to do this because one state has one set of rules, and another has another seems strange.  This equally applies to daylight savings time. 

I assume by 'poor time managment' the whole of New South Wales and Victoria also suffers this?

All I can assume Whiskers by your staunch disapproval of the concept is that you're part of the older generation and set in your ways, and change to this radical concept of daylight savings would be difficult. Having experienced both, I know DST isn't the end of the world as many older Queenslanders point out. World is changing, and the work habbits of this generation have changed, which means people have less time available for regular activities, work longer hours, and consistency is important in a country-wide, and global marketplace.


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## Whiskers (10 November 2007)

sails said:


> No need to feel guilty, Whiskers – just hoping you might realise there is another view point that some people are genuinely disadvantaged with the current situation and would like to see change.
> 
> With Qld out of sync with the other South Eastern states for six months of the year, it can also negatively impact work efficiency and effectiveness  - it's just not all about leisure!




Sails, I accept it is not all about leasure although I think most people relate to DST in terms of leasure time. I have referred to the issue more generally as a *time management *issue, with the emphasis of management being *efficiency *and *effectiveness* and also in this case a sub section, *change management*. The essence of the problem is that in Qld at least we get more dissadvantages and little or no advantages, speaking GDP wise as opposed to simplistic population wise because so much of our productivity comes from rural areas.

Really though it is the management of the issue that is the real issue. For the most part we see vested interest groups wanting to change things for their benifit with an attitude that if we can get the numbers to win a vote, then too bad for the rest they just have to wear it. That doesn't go down well as a social attitude, political policy or a management technique.

As smurf and 2020 have pointed out above, even the states that have DST can't even syncronise their start and finish times and they all have different reasons for wanting it. Smurf mentioned a valid reason that I think people would consider changing, energy consumption, but I don't believe having it dumped on you because the state gov failed to manage energy policy well is a reasonable way to go.

Ok, lets start from the beginning in a time (change) management fashion. There must be others out there who are just as well or better qualified than I in Group Facillitation Management and Conflict Resolution. Feel free to chip in.

*The problem solving approach to conflict resolution.*
The 'magic' formula is; Assertion + Cooperation = Problem Solving.
1. Acknowledge there is a conflict
2. Identify and acknowledge each party's concerns and goals.
3. Identify alternative solutions and their consequences for each party.
4. Select the alternative that best needs the concerns and goals of each party.
5. Implement the alternative selected and evaluate the results.

*Highlight Topic - Acknowledge that other parties may have issues.*
Some people want a change, they say to DST. What really needs to happen is to start asking the right questions if you expect to get to the real issues and get the best answers to solve the real problem. Most people I hear are talking about increasing their available leasure time in the afternoon. Hence the brunt of my responses... change your own circumstances to fit the lifestyle you want. 

So, the issue could be more leasure time in the afternoon in summer, or to start work earlier so you don't have to suffer so much in the heat of the day, or to sprend less time travelling by avoiding peak hour, or to disperse peak hour to save infrastructure costs, energy costs, etc. 

*Form a group to resolve issues.*
This aught to be a representative group of people covering the community and the whole gambit of issues. If you expect the outcome to be effective and efficient you must allow input from every affected party, ie don't stack the floor, ask for organisations to nominate representatives.

Unless the proponets of DST in QLD do this honestly and fairly, they might get DST for a year or two again, before it riles the disaffected so badly that they loose control and the concept is thrown out never to be looked at again. And I reitterate don't prejudge the outcome. DST is a perceived outcome, not the real issue or issues

If I have been a bit terse with some it is because they use selfish, irrational, or dumb lodgic and come across in a domineering and or inconsiderate manner to impose their will. We will not resolve problems if loud people are allowed to dominate the floor.

The most important thing here is to select a competent conflict resolution facilitator who is acceptable to all.

* Explain outcome*
Let the facilitator do their thing and control the proceedure.

For the want more leisure time issue, the outcome might be to change work hours to have more leisure time in the afternoon. Note, that doesn't necessairly mean DST. As I have said before and I have seen before, workplaces have come to agreement to start early and finish early on fridays, or to allow staggered start and finish hours or flexitime. For an energy saving issue the outcome might be to save State energy costs without adversely affecting the lifestyle or business costs of the state.

*Prioritise issues*
After all issues have been identified, the group needs to prioritise those issues. This may involve some credible calculation or information of effects on things like leasure time, health, energy, productivity, business and tax revenue etc, before people can prioritise them.

*Outline an adgenda.*
Decide on the time required, number and place of meetings and completion time.

*Then it is important to let the facilitator do their thing.*
It is a skill and particular processes to work through from here that a good facilitator will go through to brainstorm the issues and ideas, selection, testing, reflecting and confirming the resolution.

Sails, that is the sort of work that will be needed to get a result that will stick and last. A few business people or politicans getting a promotion and simple survey going might one day get DST introduced again, but will get tossed out fairly quickly for decades again unless they pay attention to the dissafected, and open their minds to the possibility that DST may not be the solution to their perceived and labeled 'problem'.


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## Julia (10 November 2007)

Hey, that's what we need to run the country:  a good facilitator!
Seriously, in describing so well the dispute resolution process, Whiskers, you have described a great way to run Australia.
Ah, dream on, I guess.


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## Whiskers (11 November 2007)

gfresh said:


> I do live up here? I work 12 hours a day sometimes (because I'm lazy I guess ), and finding the time to shop during daylight hours is difficult.. I also tend to find that on the weekends,




That is a classic time management issue on your part gfresh. If you choose to work 12 hours a day, for presumably the better income, then by default you accept the downside issues with your decision, obviously that other people are going to knock off work or close up shop at their chosen or regulated time and do other things such as have a social life. 

I stand corrected, but I think the Gold Coast did have twenty four hour trading for awhile some years ago, but it proved unprofitable for many small operators with the concern that they would be forced out of business and the big chains monopolise the industry. If there was a genuine commercial interest and benifit more stores would be open longer hours. 

The problem with your arguement is that you are selecting a small tourist area which may justify certain businesses opening twenty four hours and transposing that statewide. 



> Thankfully I live right near the border, and I can just duck across the border to get the convenience I require with later shopping hours.




But really you don't have a problem getting to the shops. Youre just cranky that all the shops don't open to suit your 'unusual' work hours.



> I usually find the supermarkets crowded with the very elderly, slow, and an inconvenient use of my time queing for the checkout. They are quite used to 1960, and do not wish to change.




It is condecending attitudes like this that blow your integrity and credability away. Next thing you'll want is to ban the elderly, slow, handicapped or anyone else that isn't on your 'frequency' from the supermarkets at the time you want to be there. 

Why don't you let the shops know what time you are coming so they can clear all the elderly, slow etc out of the checkouts... and tell me what they say to you. I know already...**** off.



> Why I have to do this because one state has one set of rules, and another has another seems strange.




Well that is what a state is. You will find the rules different across the border for shopping hours, driving licenses, traffic offences, state taxes, building developments, enviornmental issues, rail gauges, petrol taxes, vehicle registration, criminal offences etc etc etc.



> This equally applies to daylight savings time.




Ditto



> I assume by 'poor time managment' the whole of New South Wales and Victoria also suffers this?




You might translate your idiosyncricies to other people, but you would probably be wrong again.



> All I can assume Whiskers by your staunch disapproval of the concept




Wrong again: Presumptious. I dissaprove of the methodology used and consequently the outcome, to solve a perceived problem.



> is that you're part of the older generation and set in your ways,




Wrong again: Presumptious. Discriminitary opinion. I am very contempory, well educated, and some people even consider my thinking is often ahead of the paradigm shift.



> and change to this radical concept of daylight savings would be difficult.




Wrong again: Presumptious. Some people even consider my thinking is often ahead of the paradigm shift.



> Having experienced both, I know DST isn't the end of the world as many older Queenslanders point out.




Those old Queenslanders as you so disparigingnly put it, and not so old Queenslanders have tried DST before (refer to 2020's post) and rejected it. It was the end of the world for DST here though.



> World is changing, and the work habbits of this generation have changed, which means people have less time available for regular activities, work longer hours, and consistency is important in a country-wide, and global marketplace.




Well that may be true, but changing for the sake of change is not smart. Changing just because someone else has, is less smart, and changing the wrong things in responce to an incorectly perceived problem is even less smart, and expecting the world around you to change because you cannot or won't consider changing some aspect of your circumstances is even more less smart.


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## Whiskers (11 November 2007)

Julia said:


> Hey, that's what we need to run the country:  a good facilitator!
> Seriously, in describing so well the dispute resolution process, Whiskers, you have described a great way to run Australia.
> Ah, dream on, I guess.




Yes, if only. 

Actually, and I guess ironically, considering how Qld is being run lately, I got my particular knowledge of conflict resolution through a government program years ago and the facilitator trainer was a West Australian.


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## Mrs Mackie (11 November 2007)

There is a similar debate about QLD daylight savings over here: http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37079

Nothing mentioned about cows though.


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## sails (11 November 2007)

Petition is now closed with 77,074 signatures - by far the biggest when compared with other closed petitions ... http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/ClosedEPetitions.aspx?LIndex=2

Not a bad result considering it appears the media did not pick this one up to ensure all affected Queenslanders had an opportunity to have their say.  I'm guessing that many did not know this petition even existed.  We only heard of it a few days ago though an email sent by a friend.

Yes, Whiskers, I'm sure due process will be followed, but hopefully the disadvantages affecting many working Queenslanders who find themselves out of sync with the southern states for six months each year will also be taken into consideration this time.


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## 2020hindsight (11 November 2007)

sails said:


> Petition is now closed with 77,074 signatures - by far the biggest when compared with other closed petitions ...
> 
> Not a bad result considering it appears the media did not pick this one up to ensure all affected Queenslanders had an opportunity to have their say.  I'm guessing that many did not know this petition even existed.  We only heard of it a few days ago though an email sent by a friend.




brilliant job sails !! 
sounds like the petition / partition you have when you don't really want a change.

no doubt they'll claim - "see! - the results of the petition soundly rejected it.!"

whatever happened to compulsory voting?
whatever happened to the obvious suspicion that lingers when poorly publicised voting tallies were open to abuse (for anything from voting for Big Brother to Aus Idol to .. Petitions I guess )

anyway - biggest votecount etc - so well done ! 

btw that applies obviously whoever wins - 
hey - that's up to you blokes - 
Whiskers, you want to stay in the dark ages that's your prerogative lol.
"you are now entering QLD, please set your watches etcetc" - it's on old joke  

PS which is it ? was it?
did a bit of Joh rub off on Queenslanders - or 
was it that a bit of Qld rubbed off on Joh? .

as Joh used to say .. " You can lead a horse to drink , but you can't make him water "

(PS I'm orig from rural Qld - you should hear my mum on the subject of Joh lol
speaking of saving DL,  - it shone out of his ****)


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## Julia (11 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> Yes, if only.
> 
> Actually, and I guess ironically, considering how Qld is being run lately, I got my particular knowledge of conflict resolution through a government program years ago and the facilitator trainer was a West Australian.




Was the government programme by any chance the Justice Dept's Mediation Training programme?  I did that about ten years ago and the principles you outlined sounded very similar.


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## noirua (11 November 2007)

All of Australia should be the same time and go forward 2 hours in winter and back two hours in summer. It may be a bit dark for some in the morning, tough.


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## 2020hindsight (11 November 2007)

noirua said:


> All of Australia should be the same time and go forward 2 hours in winter and back two hours in summer. It may be a bit dark for some in the morning, tough.




heck - lets make it 3 and be done with it !! lol

better still 12 hours ! - all year round !!
sleep in the daytime - 
work at night be in synch with Europe - 
almost no lights to run - 
global warming contribution solved - etc


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## 2020hindsight (11 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> better still 12 hours ! - all year round !!
> sleep in the daytime -
> work at night,  be in synch with Europe -
> ..
> global warming contribution solved - etc




this is probably counter intuituive - 
if 1 hour's DLS saves 8% of our lighting bills - 
then surely 12 hours would save 100% ! 

PS I majored in logic at the "Belfast School for the Wayward Mind". 
pilot:- "oops now the third of four engines has gone out and we'll be 6 hours late landing at belfast "
paddy to seamus:-  "gee , let's hope the uther one desn't go art as well - else we'll be up here all bludy nite!!"


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## Smurf1976 (11 November 2007)

The shopping hours issue is a classic case of government meddling in the lives of indiviuals where it has no place to do so.

Just be thankful for one thing though, the Qld government is nowhere near as keen on regulations, restrictions, bans and all other such means of controlling the day to day activities of the general public as the Victorian government is.


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## noirua (11 November 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> this is probably counter intuituive -
> if 1 hour's DLS saves 8% of our lighting bills -
> then surely 12 hours would save 100% !




I have always thought that there should be 25 hours in each day, thus giving me one extra hours much needed sleep. This would also vary the day so that everyone gets the chance to work during the day and at night. 

There would also be a market for 25 hour clocks.


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## Whiskers (11 November 2007)

Julia said:


> Was the government programme by any chance the Justice Dept's Mediation Training programme?  I did that about ten years ago and the principles you outlined sounded very similar.




No Julia, it was through the QDPI's Landcare Scheme, back in the early 90's. It was a little offshoot of the Property Management Planning program dedicated to selected candidates to train as facilitiators to specialise in Group Facilitiation Conflict Resolution. 

The idea was to get some expertise around the country to improve neighbourly relations and cooperation in issues that trancended property boundaries. An important one that is more relevant today is water management.

I am aware of the one you are referring to and no doubt the principles are the same as you mention. The guy who was our trainer worked for an international firm, not sure now whether it was based in WA or just had an office there, but he was of philippines orign I think, but Perth is where he was based at the time. This guy was so intelligent and masterful in 'reading' people and communication and a real character too. It was one of the best experiences of my life.


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