# Serious question do you believe...



## amohonour (23 November 2005)

that the devil is real?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (23 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				amohonour said:
			
		

> that the devil is real?




Are you having some sort of crisis at the moment?


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## tech/a (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

So you've met my Ex wife!


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## dutchie (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Steady there Tech. Know how you feel.

But you need to be able to let go (house, assets etc) and forgive them as they do know what they are doing!


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## son of baglimit (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

THE DEVIL HAS ARRIVED - AND ITS CALLED BETFAIR - COME BACK TO THIS THREAD IN 3 YEARS - I WILL BE PROVED RIGHT REGRETABLY.


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## clowboy (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

YES


Why?


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## Smurf1976 (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

The Devil comes in multiple units complete with flashing lights and sounds. It uses an unbelievably large amount of electricity and removes the contents of the wallet/purse of those who associate with the Devil. The Devil is also known as the "poker machine" and can usually be found in groups at hotels, casinos and other such venues.

Warning: Associating with the Devil is a wealth hazard.
Warning: The Devil can seriously damage your wealth.
Warning: The Devil causes relationship stress.
Warning: The Devil is addictive.


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## Julia (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Absolutely not.  I have a friend who is devoutly religious and firmly believes that The Devil exists and resides within people,* making them do dreadful things.*   This is a very convenient way to absolve said human beings of personal responsibility .

In years gone by, before we had much understanding of psychiatry, people with mental illness were considered possessed by the Devil.

I'd be interested to know what prompted your question?

Julia


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## mit (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

no
MIT


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## sam76 (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

how did that adage go?

"the greatest trick the devil did was convince the world he didn't exist"

personally, I'm agnostic...


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## Bronte (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Agnostic; isn't that about the disbelief in the existence of God ?


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## happytrader (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

I have never ever gotten a bad piece of advice from the Bible yet. So if it says theres a Devil which it does, I believe it. Does it say I or anyone else is absolved from personal responsibility? No.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## sam76 (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				Bronte said:
			
		

> Agnostic; isn't that about the disbelief in the existence of God ?




Without consulting a dictionary, I was under the impression that it was the belief in a higher existence but not subscribing to any particular religion.

I may be wrong


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## wayneL (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				sam76 said:
			
		

> Without consulting a dictionary, I was under the impression that it was the belief in a higher existence but not subscribing to any particular religion.
> 
> I may be wrong




Agnostic translates to mean "without knowledge".

In other words, an agnostic person is not averse to believing in a higher being, but sans proof, does not.

I don't think there is a devil. I believe the devil is a creation of religion. Religion was created to control people. Religion is a negative influense IMO

However, I hold that the existence of the big fella upstairs is self evident.

IMO Cheers


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## amohonour (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

so next question seriously do you believe in GOD


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## Julia (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				amohonour said:
			
		

> so next question seriously do you believe in GOD




amohonour:

Before forum members get involved in responding to this emotive question, how about stating your own position?
at least two of us have asked for this in your previous "does the Devil exist" question.
Can you outline whether, in the above question, you mean God in the sense of the belief of religious devotees, or rather, as Wayne suggested, a higher power which is nonetheless not connected necessarily with any religious belief.
I will start off (pending your response) by 100% endorsing all that Wayne said in his earlier post.
At the same time, I'm sometimes vaguely envious of people who believe that everything that happens is "God's Will".  Sort of removes the need to make too many decisions, doesn't it.
Sorry to anyone here who could be offended by the last statement.  I don't mean to be flippant or to ridicule religious beliefs.  I would sincerely be interested to read comments from anyone who has firmly held religious beliefs as to just why they believe, and what such beliefs offer them in terms of everyday living.

Julia


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## amohonour (24 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

great response julia yes i do believe in the God of the Bible and my only motivation is to simply try and throw something out there that provokes the thinking. It appears to have worked. To say that God is in control of everything has been a great concern of many a believer or non believer for centuries. Personally I say that we are all accountable for our actions. The beauty of it is not how will it benefit me now but purely that it is possible to have a relationship with God that goes way beyond our comprehension and will last into eternity. The strange thing is that we measure mankind by how good or bad we are the fact is that we are all born with the same fallen nature that leads us away from God and what is good to some degree but in our foolishness we can justify ourselves as being good by measuring ourselves against someone who is worse. Rather ludicrous me thinks. To some it up we should not remove ourselves from the opportunity of a relationship with God and goodness for the sake of our own self rightousness and justification. I am yet to meet an honest person that would not admit that he / she somewhere in their life has crossed the line from good and right to do something that is wrong. I do not write this to try and offend in anyway i am simply enjoying peoples responses and thought provoking answers. Cheers (and yes if you believe in God then you have to believe in the devil and vice versa )


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## clowboy (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



> At the same time, I'm sometimes vaguely envious of people who believe that everything that happens is "God's Will". Sort of removes the need to make too many decisions, doesn't it.




Julia,

This is merely my opinion/experience.

I personally find it harder to make decisions.
What I find many people don't seem to realiase is that "Gods Will" is not set in concrete, we have the power to change it.

As an example, it is against Gods will to commit suicide yet we hold the power to do so.

Believing in God therefore makes the decision process harder for me becuase I often want what may not be best for me/am selfish etc etc.


Just my two cents worth


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## Milk Man (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

I do beleive in god. Im undecided on religion but have been raised christian. The thing I dont like about religion is that people use it to justify actions that are not right. The general contention of religion is/should be to make the world a better place for humanity. Thats my only real belief; god would want us to make our place in the universe as good as possible as a whole. Anything else should only aid in the creation of the former. And dont use it for your own self serving agenda (Osama).


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## amohonour (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

I suppose I also posed the questions because if God exists and stands for all that is good.  Then therefore the devil exists and as it says is the father of lies and that which is bad so why do we always turn the blame towards God when things go wrong and not the devil.


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## Milk Man (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Personally im agnostic (thanks for the new word guys : ) about the existence of the devil. I think it is logical that you can believe in god and not the devil but not vice-versa. What do you guys think?


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## son of baglimit (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

a one word answer - NO


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## amohonour (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

what does your no refer to?


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## son of baglimit (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

GOD - NO
DEVIL - NO
BETFAIR - NO


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## crash82au (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Im pretty sure god is in control of the price of an ounce of gold at the moment


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## Julia (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> Julia,
> 
> This is merely my opinion/experience.
> 
> ...




Clowboy,

That's a really interesting response.  My conception of "God's will" was more about the stuff that happens over which we have no apparent control, e.g. famines, earthquakes etc (but not necessarily just the awful things - also a beauiful sunset, the first daffodil in springtime etc.)

What you are describing I would have thought was more a facet of  _religion as created by man?_ 
Isn't, for example, the example you give about suicide something found either in the Bible or in some other religious construct?  Therefore you can only "know" it is God's will because whoever wrote the Bible says it is so, and presumably those authors were human beings.  ipso facto, how can it be God's will?
I guess the answer to that will be that "God gave them this knowledge of what his Will would be"?

Another question which comes up is "we need God (or a belief in God) to know what is right and wrong".
I would totally disagree with that:  it is perfectly possible to have a sound moral and ethical philosophy without it deriving from a religious base.
Re your last sentence, I think the same dilemma could well apply to someone who is simply morally aware without believing in God or having any religious affiliations.

Would be genuinely interested in your response to these questions.


Julia


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## Julia (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				Milk Man said:
			
		

> Personally im agnostic (thanks for the new word guys : ) about the existence of the devil. I think it is logical that you can believe in god and not the devil but not vice-versa. What do you guys think?




Perhaps.  Then I suppose you have to define "God".  How would you do that?

Julia


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## wayneL (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> Perhaps.  Then I suppose you have to define "God".  How would you do that?
> 
> Julia




The eternal question.

There may be a milliom definitions of God. ALL  of which may be true; or perhaps NONE of which are true.

Could it be that God is everything and all that there is? Including you and me, the grain of sand on the beach, the Milky Way and all in between?

I don't go for the religious construct of the separation of God and everything else. This is purely a control mechanism.

IMO Cheers


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## Smurf1976 (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

To me the word "devil" is literally a joke. It had never occurred to me that the question even related to religion in any way. I mean, to me, someone saying "is the devil real" is like asking if I believe that a UFO carrying 3 green men really did land somewhere this morning. The mere mention of a Devil is, to me at least, something not to be taken seriously and I hadn't realised until today that _anyone_ actually believes in the Devil other than as something to joke about.   

No surprises for guessing that I'm not religious at all...


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## clowboy (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



> Clowboy,
> 
> That's a really interesting response. My conception of "God's will" was more about the stuff that happens over which we have no apparent control, e.g. famines, earthquakes etc (but not necessarily just the awful things - also a beauiful sunset, the first daffodil in springtime etc.)
> 
> ...





Julia,

I will try to answer your questions as best as my limited knowledge allows.
The most problematic thing with the bible etc is that to some degree it is open to interpretation.

In terms of "gods will" in a natural sense a beautiful flower or sunset is really only his will in that he created the earth and all it's glory.  A famine or earthquake is also not God's will IMO.  According to the bible when the earth was created it was faultless and these such natural disastors did not exist (hence my reasoning that it is not his will.)

The question then becomes who's will is it - Perhaps the devils.

My comments where more aimed at the use of the excuse "Gods will" as no matter what the eample it is our actions that are the deciding factor. 

To use your example - a famine.  Suppose that the famine is god's will.  does that also mean that it is god's will that we do nothing more than say "Oh well it is God's will?" The answer would be no - what his will is becomes the hard decision.  (Ultimatley his will is for people to come to know him.)

The question to spring up is .....so do you therefore mean that in order to care for fellow hummans (offer donations etc) you need to believe in God?

Answer NO.

In answer to knowing God's will that is a combination of things, partly what he tells us in the bible (basically what you said) and mostly what he tells us directly.  - sometimes maybe we dont know god's will (I have often faced this dilemma).

We don't nesacarily need to believe in god to know right or wrong depending on how we define right and wrong.

right and wrong is really just "good for us" and "bad for us" which is a learning curve. (our laws are a colective of our past lessons).

As an example cheating on your wife/husband is "bad for us" and therefore wrong. 

The problem is that we forget our lessons and cheating on someone is an awful lot of fun at the time.  Trust in God to teach us right and wrong means that we don't have to make the mistake in order to learn it first.

The biggest stumbling block we face is IMO.

1) you dont have to believe in something for it to exist.
2) The devil is the default position, not God

That is to say that God may or may not exist.  If however he does and you choose to believe he does not, he still does and so does the devil only the devil represents all that is superfical (which brings satisfaction) within the world.

Having said that.

There are people in the world that do not believe in God and have a moral standing that would far outdo many of those who do believe in God and there are many people who do believe in God and have a moral standing that is beyond shameful.


as an example of my last statement in my last post.

In the past I have wanted to divorce my Wife and had it not been for a belief in god would have done so which would have resulted in large amounts of short term happiness.(amongst the pain)  Instead I have stuck with her (which has brought much pain) but as each day passes I get closer and closer to true happiness.  Looking back the thing thats sticks out the most is how hard the decision was and how easy it would have been if I did not believe in God.


Hope that sheeds some light on my thoughts, i am not very good at putting what I think into words so it may just be a series of confusing ramblings.


Cheers


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## Fleeta (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				son of baglimit said:
			
		

> GOD - NO
> DEVIL - NO
> BETFAIR - NO




I'd say you are wrong Baglimit. After your stock tips, i'm thinking this:

GOD - Baglimit
DEVIL - Tabcorp
BETFAIR - Good for consumers


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## Smurf1976 (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> In the past I have wanted to divorce my Wife...



 Does your wife ever look at ASF? She might get a bit stressed reading that!


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## Julia (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Clowboy:

Thanks for your response.  I acknowledge the sincerity of your beliefs.
However, you haven't answered the question:
  "who wrote the Bible"?
Why do you believe that what is written in the Bible any more represents a formula for good living than any other of the zillions of personal self help books which abound on the shelves of bookstores?

Do you think it is possible that you believe in the existence of the Devil as a mechanism to excuse the  :swear:  stuff that happens which would otherwise have to be blamed on God?

Please don't think I'm trying to "get at you".  Not at all.  I have always been fascinated by this belief/non-belief thing since I had a brief look at Religious Studies at uni some years ago.

Like Smurf, I can only hope your wife doesn't cast her eyes over this thread unless, that is, you have such an honest relationship that she understands it is only God who keeps you with her.  

Is there anything that could happen in your life which would shake your belief in God?  

Julia


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## Julia (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> To me the word "devil" is literally a joke. It had never occurred to me that the question even related to religion in any way. I mean, to me, someone saying "is the devil real" is like asking if I believe that a UFO carrying 3 green men really did land somewhere this morning. The mere mention of a Devil is, to me at least, something not to be taken seriously and I hadn't realised until today that _anyone_ actually believes in the Devil other than as something to joke about.
> 
> No surprises for guessing that I'm not religious at all...




Smurf:

Quite educational, isn't it.  I would guess you saw "Rosemary's Baby" many years ago.  (I think that's what it was called - starred Mia Farrow).    Remember the exorcism scene?  That is the stuff of absolutely genuine beliefs of some religious people I have known.  From there, it is one easy step to brand, e.g. schizophrenia as being caused by the Devil inhabiting someone's soul.   Again, it is just one further step for religious devotees to reject effective anti-psychotic medication which can provide control of the psychosis.

Julia


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## happytrader (25 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Hi Julia

Many mentally ill people often see themselves as persecuted religious characters and central to carrying out 'Gods' will or to save the world.The amazing part is they can usually quote stuff quite accurately from the Bible - its all that focus. Some could probably be quite convincing as sect or religious leaders to people who didn't know any better.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## clowboy (26 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Julia,

I am not the smarest person ever meet so I can only answer with the limited knowledge I have.


Humans wrote the Bible.

I personally consider it to represent a better formula from my experince with those who use it.

No  I don't think I use him as an excuse and often bad things "MAY" be a result of God's doing - he does after all have a wrath.

My wife does not read the forums - but if she where to she would understand, I used something personal that has happened in my life as it made the best example.


Yes there are many things that could happen in my life that would shake my belief.  I know you ask this question more in a big event sense - like for example the death of ones wife or child etc but for me I am "REALLY" chalanged daily.

As an example..

If god knows all and controls all then why would he design an earth and the human race knowing full well that it was destined to fail (Adam eating the apple).


PS  Hopefully I am not offending anyone, I dont mean to, nor do I want to apear like a preacher or that I am some way supier to anyone (God knows I am not) - I am just providing my view.


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## kerosam (26 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

i attend the baptist church once a week here. and yes, i do believe that the devil is real. if you believe that the bible is true, and only if, he is seeking company when he (the devil) is due to be condemn into the lake of fire for eternalty.

i might not be able to answer some good questions, but allow me to point to some directions for some possible answers. topic on:

1. God's will. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the principles in the bible, be it direct (sermon on the mount) or indirect (parables in the gospels and accounts in the ol testament), would be God's will. all said, this does not negates human's responsibilty. so if someone base their decision making according to the principles fo the bible, they would be excersing the will of God.

2. Bible written by humans. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the relevation of God was captured in the writings of scripture (the bible) by means of 'inspiration'... humans were mere mediums.

3. the word 'christian' to some has subjective meanings. to some, in fact majority, christians are ALL who embrace the God who created this world. to some, as what i understand, christians refers to the protestants. So from what i know, catholics, jehovah witness, seven day adventist just to name  few do not fall to some people's category as christians.

4.  adam and eve did ate a fruit at the garden... whether it is an apple or not, no one knows. genesis does not say what fruit except a painter who drew it. hey, by the way, who grew that picture of adam and eve?

i'm not a theology scholar, there are books written about these topics except no 4,  selling in christian bookshops, try Koorong or The Word. i spend some good time there to get answers. i encourage anyone to do that and if you happen to be in Koorong in Adelaide, try their brownies.... one of the best.


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## wayneL (26 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Some questions for discussion...this is not a go or an attack, just quoting you kero cause its the latest post 



			
				kerosam said:
			
		

> i attend the baptist church once a week here. and yes, i do believe that the devil is real. if you believe that the bible is true, and only if, he is seeking company when he (the devil) is due to be condemn into the lake of fire for eternalty.




Why would God give us free will and then punish us for exersizing it? e.g. those who choose not to believe in Him, yet are good moral people. Why such a horrible neverending torture for such insignificant and in a lot of cases unknowing transgression. It seems incredibly cruel, and dare I say "unforgiving"



> i might not be able to answer some good questions, but allow me to point to some directions for some possible answers. topic on:
> 
> 1. God's will. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the principles in the bible, be it direct (sermon on the mount) or indirect (parables in the gospels and accounts in the ol testament), would be God's will. all said, this does not negates human's responsibilty. so if someone base their decision making according to the principles fo the bible, they would be excersing the will of God.




How does human free will fit in with Gods will. What if, in my free will, I choose not to believe the bible is inspired by God, even if I believe in Him? Could God be completely neutral? Allowing total free will?



> 2. Bible written by humans. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the relevation of God was captured in the writings of scripture (the bible) by means of 'inspiration'... humans were mere mediums.




Why are other mediums and writings, which are claimed to be inspired, condemned as works of "the devil". e.g. Neale Donald Walshe. Why couldn't have God spoken to him if he spoke to Moses et al? Could Moses have been a nutter, delusional?

If the Bible is Gods inspired word, why did he only ever talk to Jews? According to the church, he has never spoken to a christian. Why?



> 4.  adam and eve did ate a fruit at the garden... whether it is an apple or not, no one knows. genesis does not say what fruit except a painter who drew it. hey, by the way, who grew that picture of adam and eve?




What of science, and the theory of evolution? (another religion requiring a leap of faith IMO) How does the christian explain away discoveries of fossil records which, even if they don't prove anything, can at least disprove the literal creation account?

As Paul implored Timothy, test everything!

Why should we blindly accept dogma. The church is notorious for changing its story as expedient in order to maintain control...beginning with the Council  of Nicaea.

The God of the Bible, is riddled with human failings...jealousy, wrath, vengeance, need to be worshipped. These are human needs and failings.

The Real God, if we flick off the rubbish of the last two millenia, is most probably entirely different.... maybe no further away than your fingertips!

Just for discussion folks.

IMO Cheers


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## son of baglimit (26 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

fleeta - ive been waiting for you to put ya 2 bobs worth in here - and you havent let me down - im god am i ? - is this a true character assessment, or r u trying to remain in my good books so i reveal my next BIG THING - oh yeah its coming soon.


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## Julia (26 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Clowboy, Kerosam, and Amohonour,

Will be interested to read your answers to Wayne's questions above.

The only friend I have who is devoutly religious is Seventh Day Adventist.
She absolutely believes the SDA  exclusively understands the word of God as it is written in the Bible.  Seventh Day Adventists are not alone in this conviction.  Many "branches" of christianity will maintain that they alone are God's chosen people and unless the rest of us join them we are definitely doomed to a literal fire and brimstone type of Hell where the Devil reigns for ever.

Could each of you say whether you believe those who do not practise any religion and/or do not accept that the Bible is the word of God will in fact be condemned to the fate described above?


Quite separate issue:

Would you  consider that religion's purpose, if not to control people, is to comfort them?   i.e. provide some sense of structure, or even purpose in what otherwise might seem to be a life without direction?  I think it was Thoreau who said "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation".
I suppose what I'm wondering is why do people need to have faith in something other than themselves.
Whenever I hear platitudes such as "even though we don't understand why little Mary died of leukaemia aged 5, we know it is all part of God's plan and has to be for the best" I feel like throwing up.  I doubt that little Mary would agree it was for the best!

Again, no offence to the advocates of religion.  It's interesting to have the discussion.

Julia


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## kerosam (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe (for WayneL and julia)*

wayneL, no worries mate, after all we are here to share our views.... appreciate your interest. I'll try to put my views brief cos i don't have a long concentration span on my train of thought.

_"Why would God give us free will and then punish us for exersizing it? e.g. those who choose not to believe in Him, yet are good moral people. Why such a horrible neverending torture for such insignificant and in a lot of cases unknowing transgression. It seems incredibly cruel, and dare I say "unforgiving"_

God is not a dictator. He is a God that longs to have a relationship with His creation especially Man aka humans. So though He is omniscience, He still gives Man freedom to operate in His realm. God desires a genunie heart of Man to fellowship with Him. He longs for a mutual relationship with Man not robots. The freedom He allows is not all bad IMO. In this process, being a believer, this freedom helps me to mark out my boundaries. an example would be if i stay out too late too often, two definite things will happen:

1. my immune system would be down and i'll get sick;
2. i'll have a loss of cocentration the next day.

how would i know? i was allowed to experience that myself. i pushed my human limits and then if it is not beneficial to me, that's where i make a mark not to overstep that it the future. There is still that human responsibility that mankind needs to bear- cause and effect.

_Why are other mediums and writings, which are claimed to be inspired, condemned as works of "the devil". e.g. Neale Donald Walshe. Why couldn't have God spoken to him if he spoke to Moses et al? Could Moses have been a nutter, delusional?

If the Bible is Gods inspired word, why did he only ever talk to Jews? According to the church, he has never spoken to a christian. Why?_

I am not very familiar with this. I know the bible used by evangelical christians e.g. baptist, methodist and brethen, is different from the one used in the Catholic church. and apparently, in recent years, someone or group discovered about the gospel of thomas. i do recommend this book 'A general introduction to the bible' by norman L. geisler and william E. Nix, publisher moody press. if you are keen to find out how the bible came about including how the 66 books and letters make up what we call the evangelical bible (which in itself has a few versions). even if you are not a believer, its a good one to work your brain.

personally, i believe the number of books and letters (66) is the true word of God. i'll be very skeptical if someone comes along and say that there are missing links that should be continously adding to it. 

_What of science, and the theory of evolution? (another religion requiring a leap of faith IMO) How does the christian explain away discoveries of fossil records which, even if they don't prove anything, can at least disprove the literal creation account?_

again, what i know of creation is simplely it was done in 6 24hours days. God rested on the 7th day. There is a particular organisation that actually answers pro- creation issues. They are evangelical and non-profit christian organisation (i think). They are call the 'Answers in Genesis'. google them and see what you can find. Their main men are Ken Ham and Carl Wieland. both are scientist.

 Julia, depending on which religion and from that religion which sect. There are extreme so called christian groups that practice controlling their followers. i nearly got involved into one after high school where their 'god' is so important that family commitments can be sacrificed. i tend to stay away from such extreme teachings. 

i think the general public must not group christians as a whole. i mentioned in a earlier reply that christians in today's definition, is just any group or denomination that has a god or more to worship from a western culture. i think catholics won't call evangelical christians 'christians', my guess for their definition would be protestant.

got to get some sleep. just my opinions.

good night.


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## amohonour (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Gods will is that all men should come to him through Jesus who is the Christ to recieve the gift of eternal life. Not for one second should anyone think just because they go to some religious group and are morally good that they have a free ticket to eternal life in heaven with God. It is good to see that so many people are open to discuss this topic.

Another question then is Jesus who he claimed to be as He is the only one out of all that you cant find his bones in the tomb where he was laid to rest. go to other religious leaders graves and they are still there. So if God is real then the devil has to be because God speaks of him in his word the bible then that would point to Jesus as who he claimed to be. Jewish historians especially Josephus who was a very acurate writer never once denied the existance of Jesus and that he was crucified. If you look into jewish history and a roman soldiers responsibility when it came to guarding the tomb then it was not a natural occurence that someone just wandered in and removed the body. Roman soldiers to fail at their post meant certain death and there was not only one soldier there. So God promised to send the Christ and Jesus claimed that he was sent by God he said he would rise again and the tomb was found empty so what do we do with Jesus who is the only door to eternal life with God and everything that is good? Again i am not trying to win an argument or offend in anyway just wanted to ask a few questions that may provoke some response. This has certainly been the case.


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## amohonour (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

just to answer one question above God through Jesus spoke to many who were not Jews he also spoke to the Gentile or non Jew. We must consider that God's chosen people are Israel so then of course he will speek to them in days of old as there was a purpose to what he was doing but that is a far too lengthy discussion for here just saying that God is God and if he wants to talk to certain people that is entirely up to him I for one do not think we are wise enough to question God on why he does what he does. sounds like a cop out but know just my feelings towards God and His right to do as it pleases him. cheers


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## clowboy (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Waynel -

would be interested for some examples of fossils that disprove creation (it makes it easier to answer your question).

While there may well be many fossils that don't "exactly" fit in the creaton account (in our minds) what of fossils such as those of chariots etc found in the middle of the red sea? how do the evolutionist's explain them?

At the end of the day the subject can be debated and proven/disproven for eternity - that is why it is called faith.

In terms of God talking to people - He does and so does the devil.  I am sure there are mediums working for god as well as those who work for the devil.


Julia,

No I cant really answer your first question.

The requirement to avoid hell is simply accepting God (Jesus) as your savior - nothing more and nothing less.  What is the cut off point - I do not know but I do know that if a person accepts god as his savior he will start to follow god's word over time (and grow his relationship) (by god's word I do not just mean the bible).  In fact if you continue doing something that dipleases him he will not stop bugging you about it until you either submit to him or renounce him.

God is used to comorft people.  (he also does comfort people).

Saying to a mother that her 5 year old child who just died of a horrible disease is god's will and for the best has an element of crap to it IMO.

Really it is just a comforting statment and the truthful statement should be - Don't worry (gives your sadness to God) becuase she is in god's hands now and you will join her again when the time is right.

I certainly don't think that it is God's will that a child die (or anyone for that matter) of some horrible disease.

It is interesting to note as well that we where actually design not to die.  adam and eve would have lived forever


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## wayneL (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> Waynel -
> 
> would be interested for some examples of fossils that disprove creation (it makes it easier to answer your question).




Heya clowboy,

I didn't say fossils disprove creation, rather, they disprove the biblical creation account.

Equally, there is much to disprove the Darwinian theory of evolution.

Both views are articles of faith IMO.

What really happened can't be known fully and will ones view will aways require a leap of faith.

I don't think we can ever know fully, and I don't really think its important... but does make intereasting conversation 

Cheers


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## Julia (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

The following is a quote from today's paper and is an extract from a letter written by the young Australian due to be executed next Friday.

  "I am glad and ready to go now.  I believe by then, God's purpose 
   for me will have been achieved ..... I truly believe God put me here
   for a reason and now that his plan for me has almost been achieved,
   he is preparing for me little baby angels to play with when I return to
   him."

Now, no one will want to deny a condemned person anything at all that gives him comfort, but if this isn't a great example of rationalisation, I don't know what is.

Can anyone seriously believe that God would plan to make someone commit a heinous crime for which their punishment would be the death penalty?
If they do, then so much for a "just and loving God"

Or perhaps "God's plan" was to make an example of this particular person in order to discourage others from attempting similar crimes?

Julia.


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## Julia (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				happytrader said:
			
		

> Hi Julia
> 
> Many mentally ill people often see themselves as persecuted religious characters and central to carrying out 'Gods' will or to save the world.The amazing part is they can usually quote stuff quite accurately from the Bible - its all that focus. Some could probably be quite convincing as sect or religious leaders to people who didn't know any better.
> 
> ...




Hi Happytrader

You are right.  I experienced an example of what you describe  some years ago when I was doing some work in a psychiatric institution.  The staff introduced me to a schizophrenic patient in his 30's.  He was very courteous, well presented and quite charming.  He absolutely believed he was Jesus Christ, presented his case to that end very effectively, and had I been a visitor from another planet I would have been totally convinced that he was  who he said he was.

Julia


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## sails (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Hi Julia,

I can't see that God plans for people to commit crimes of any nature, let alone one that would result in the death penalty.  The ten commandments alone cover most criminal activity with an emphatic "Thou shalt not...", so doesn't make sense that God planned the criminal side of things.   While there is no excuse for criminal activity and there are consquences that have to be accepted, as I understand it, God does still offer forgiveness when one is genuinely sorry for the wrong they have done.  

However, I think this young person is accepting responsibility for the crime he chose and it seems to me that he has found forgiveness and great sense of peace with His Maker in these difficult circumstances.   

Just my thoughts.

Margaret


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## kerosam (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

julia, i guess when a person knows he is about to die in a week or two, he/she gets a bit philosphical in life & religious too.... in these last days, i don't think there will be a person who is going to correct this convicted person's theology and tell him 'hey mate, you got it wrong. you are in this situation because of this act you have done not God's will.... don't blame it on God, matey.'


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## amohonour (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

fossils actually prove the bible more than disprove because it says that sin and death entered the world through the fall of man so therefore nothiing could have died before the fall to become a fossil so the earth according to the bible is approx 6000 years old. so outside of the account of the fall then the earth cannot be millions of years old if you are really interested challenge yourself to go to the creation science web page and look into there proof that the world is not actually millions of years old.  One of the most intelligent people on this subject is Ken Ham


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## Julia (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				sails said:
			
		

> Hi Julia,
> 
> I can't see that God plans for people to commit crimes of any nature, let alone one that would result in the death penalty.  The ten commandments alone cover most criminal activity with an emphatic "Thou shalt not...", so doesn't make sense that God planned the criminal side of things.   While there is no excuse for criminal activity and there are consquences that have to be accepted, as I understand it, God does still offer forgiveness when one is genuinely sorry for the wrong they have done.
> 
> ...




Hello Margaret,

Fair comment.  It was a bit unkind of me to point out that in view of his circumstances he was, with the aid of religion/belief in a life herafter and little angels, rationalising why he is where he is.

I expect if I were in a similar position I'd be thinking along the same lines.

So, my last comment above brings the discussion back once more to the question
  "do we need to believe in a God or have faith in something we don't  understand in order to provide ourselves with comfort in bad times?"

Julia


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## Julia (27 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				kerosam said:
			
		

> julia, i guess when a person knows he is about to die in a week or two, he/she gets a bit philosphical in life & religious too.... in these last days, i don't think there will be a person who is going to correct this convicted person's theology and tell him 'hey mate, you got it wrong. you are in this situation because of this act you have done not God's will.... don't blame it on God, matey.'




Kerosam:

You are absolutely right.  See my previous post in reply to Margaret.


I shouldn't have implied any criticism towards the  poor chap for his pictures of little angels etc.  He needs something to hold on to.

Julia


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## kerosam (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

julia, might attempt to comment on your last question tom night.... a bit late for deep things atm.... brain shutting off.


amohonour, since you started this thread, care to share why the question? (does the question sound right???? pardon my darn english).


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## wayneL (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



> "do we need to believe in a God or have faith in something we don't understand in order to provide ourselves with comfort in bad times?"




Clearly, in many cases this is true, evidence in the sudden conversion to religion of folk in adverse circumstances.

There is a growing number of intellectual believers however, who do so on scientific grounds. 

Others belief is experiential. i.e. stuff has happened.

I fall into both catagorie 2 & 3. However I am very critical of religion and the religious portrayal of God. My conception is entirely different...and I am always open to any argument.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

I watched a movie tonight and someone said god was an imaginary friend of grown ups.

I also watched escape from LA. Haven't seen it for years.


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## son of baglimit (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

THE FOLLOWING PUTS IT ALL IN PERSPECTIVE............

The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? 

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. 

One student, however, wrote the following: 

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. 

I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. 

As for as how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. 

Most of these religions state if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong 
to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. 

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. 

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. 

So which is it? 

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. 


The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God." 


THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"


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## wayneL (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

HAHAAH

Very good!!!! .........good news also  

Cheers


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## Julia (28 November 2005)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

Son of Baglimit:


Much laughter here.  Really funny and incredibly reassuring!

Thanks

Julia


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## Bobby (5 February 2006)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/fundamentals/real_god.html This is a most interesting article published back in 1922. about is God real ?.

Bob.


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## clowboy (5 February 2006)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*

interesting read, and rather compelling.

If there is no devil though I guess mankind (as a whole) are just a bunch of selfish idiots.

Guess we will be in big trouble when someone else in the universe decides to settle on earth....or just plunder it.


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## Bobby (5 February 2006)

*Re: Serious question do you believe*



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> interesting read, and rather compelling.
> 
> If there is no devil though I guess mankind (as a whole) are just a bunch of selfish idiots.
> 
> Guess we will be in big trouble when someone else in the universe decides to settle on earth....or just plunder it.




 Pleased you read it, many who read it through may have an introspection of the way they view religion in the future !.

Do you like the words of John Lennons song ( Imagine ? ).

Regards Bob.


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## Bobby (8 February 2006)

Hey hey wake up !
Read the article I posted recently, what ever your  religious bent ?, or none .  
Read it please,  .

Bob.


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## wayneL (8 February 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hey hey wake up !
> Read the article I posted recently, what ever your  religious bent ?, or none .
> Read it please,  .
> 
> Bob.




Bobby, it's one of those topics that a bit taboo. Folks tend to polarize themselves into either

1/a purely scientific camp, where any sort of faith/spirituality is regarded as infantile/stupid. This is evident in the article.

2/a purely religious camp where evolutionists are considered as satan personified.

...and never the twain shall meet.

Just because religions suffer from some truly ludicrous propositions, does not disprove God.

Science also contains some bizarrely outrageous and unprovable claims also, and cannot disprove God.

Both sides promote their doctrine with a preposterous and indefensible arrogance, refusing to concede valid points from the other side. Both sides suffer blinkered vision.

I love this topic and it is best discussed comprehensively and at length. Internet forums suffer a time lapse between responses that degrade the quality of discussion appropriate.

Thats why I'm staying out of it.


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## Bobby (8 February 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Bobby, it's one of those topics that a bit taboo. Folks tend to polarize themselves into either
> 
> 1/a purely scientific camp, where any sort of faith/spirituality is regarded as infantile/stupid. This is evident in the article.
> 
> ...



 Hullo WayneL,
Well after reading your reply, Gee you are impassioned on this subject, you seem to believe maybe in god.
Did you read the article in full ?.
Your post made many valid points !.
The universe & our limited understanding of it -- is God.

Regards Bob


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## mit (8 February 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Science also contains some bizarrely outrageous and unprovable claims also, and cannot disprove God.
> 
> Both sides promote their doctrine with a preposterous and indefensible arrogance, refusing to concede valid points from the other side. Both sides suffer blinkered vision.
> 
> Thats why I'm staying out of it.




Agree largely with it being pretty taboo but it must be pointed out that the nature of science is that it is self-correcting because it is to an individual scientist's advantage to overturn the current theories as that is the way he can win fame and fortune. All currently accepted theories are the ones that are best supported by all the evidence.

The main problem that science has is that bad and psuedo-science get's into the media (e.g. ID and Greenhouse Effect deniers) with equal billing to accepted theories.

Bobby's link is an atheistic/agnostic viewpoint (which I agree with) supported by science rather than science proving that there is no God which it can't

MIT


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