# Futures day trading after 6pm - which market?



## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

Hello All,

I've been trading shares on the ASX (several weeks/months holding time) and I'm looking at getting into futures day trading. As I have a lot to learn before I can be consistently profitable I'm not quite ready to leave the day job just yet, which means I'm only available until after 6pm weekdays and all day/night weekends.

Does anyone have suggestions as to an ideal market to begin trading in? I will miss the SPI and HSI sessions so I could potentially hit up the US sessions after midnight (although that would wreck havoc on my full time job, I don't think i'd be able to do it). 

I could try and catch SPI night sessions or something similar but I've been recommended to stick to the opening sessions due to better liquidity and price action. That pretty much only leaves Europe I guess? With London opening about 5:30pm I think? (AEST - Melbourne).

I'm not particularly fussed if it's IDX/Bonds/Comms/etc. But just bearing in mind that I'll be new to this so if there's a particular class you think would be best suited for learning I'd appreciate any advice.

Thank you for your time 

KJM


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## white_goodman (5 July 2012)

come trade night SPI with me  

its pretty useless after 6pm up until 10.30 for announcements and the first 2 hours of NY open

5.10-6.15 ish and 10.30-2am is generally good


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## CanOz (5 July 2012)

Your choices are quite varied in terms of thickness, average daily range, commissions, margin etc. You really should pop onto a SIM and trade a few. Are you day swing trading, Scalping in and out frequently? 

For example, in Europe the FESX is a great instrument to trade if you're willing to hang on. Its 10 EUR a tick and moves slowly, is thick as f*** with a ton of liquidity. The DAX on the other hand is more like the Crude Oil, its fast and thin. At 12.5 EUR a tick it can clean you out in a hurry.

Then there are Bunds and Bobls, they're both thick markets.

Then you've got the US makrkets CL, Crude Oil which can be a good market to trade even before the US market opens at times, all be it a bit thin, so you wouldn't want to be trading too many contracts...

The ES, the S&P 500 mini is good to trade 24 hours a day. Its pretty cheap, liquid, and thick enough to learn to read.

CanOz


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

white_goodman said:


> come trade night SPI with me
> 
> its pretty useless after 6pm up until 10.30 for announcements and the first 2 hours of NY open
> 
> 5.10-6.15 ish and 10.30-2am is generally good




I'll certainly look into that - might start around 10:30 for an hour or so. Wouldn't be able to join you after midnight (Need my sleep bad!) Thanks for the suggestion - I was hoping to do some SPI trading at some point mostly because I'd like to get into a prop shop (propex) one day if I have what it takes. Figure the SPI would be a good place to start.




CanOz said:


> Your choices are quite varied in terms of thickness, average daily range, commissions, margin etc. You really should pop onto a SIM and trade a few. Are you day swing trading, Scalping in and out frequently?




I'll be attempting 2/3 tick scalping and would prefer smaller commissions. I've got ninjatrader up for simming and I've been observing some of the markets. Quite a lot to choose from so need to narrow the list down. 



CanOz said:


> For example, in Europe the FESX is a great instrument to trade if you're willing to hang on. Its 10 EUR a tick and moves slowly, is thick as f*** with a ton of liquidity. The DAX on the other hand is more like the Crude Oil, its fast and thin. At 12.5 EUR a tick it can clean you out in a hurry.
> 
> Then there are Bunds and Bobls, they're both thick markets.
> 
> ...




I'm thinking I may avoid the oil/dax for now - I've heard they can be quite difficult to start with due to the way it jumps around very quickly. So maybe starting on something a bit slower while I build up my skills migh tbe the best way - although sometimes it's good to just jump in the deep end ey?  

I've heard good things about the S&P 500 minis - didn't know they were 24/7. Might look into those, the FESX and Bunds + Bobls. 

Thank you both for your help and advice.


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## CanOz (5 July 2012)

No worries....maybe one day Trembling Hand will tell us how it all started...

I suppose we'll have to wait for the book!!

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> I'll be attempting 2/3 tick scalping and would prefer smaller commissions. I've got ninjatrader up for simming and I've been observing some of the markets. Quite a lot to choose from so need to narrow the list down.




Why does everyone want to be a scalper now days?  In this market when we are getting huge intraday ranges its like picking up pennies when there is $100 notes laying all over the place.

What will happen is you'll kill it on the sim trading EURO markets but go live and get cut to bits because of latency, blown through stops and fills at the end of que. 

I would scalp the ar$e of the buy and sell buttons on sim trying to learn markets not necessarily trying to learn scalping. BIG diff IMO.


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Why does everyone want to be a scalper now days?  In this market when we are getting huge intraday ranges its like picking up pennies when there is $100 notes laying all over the place.
> 
> What will happen is you'll kill it on the sim trading EURO markets but go live and get cut to bits because of latency, blown through stops and fills at the end of que.
> 
> I would scalp the ar$e of the buy and sell buttons on sim trying to learn markets not necessarily trying to learn scalping. BIG diff IMO.




A fair point, ping to EU would probably be 300-500ms which would put me at a disadvantage. The only reason I was starting with scalping was because I was going through the Propex trainee trader recommended reading material about day trading which detailed scalping methods. I figured if I had some practice and live experience in those techniques that they're recommending I read about I would stand a better chance in getting into a firm like Propex. 

I'm really new when it comes to day trading so if there is somewhere else i should be focusing my efforts (like utilising intra-day ranges) then I'm certainly going to heed that advice. 

Thank you for your honest and frank feedback - if you were in my shoes right now, no day-trading experience (but good inter-day/week trading experience) what would your recommendation be for the best way to start? e.g. are there any books/traders that come to mind so I can observe how they trade to better understand what you're suggesting?

Thanks.


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

As a point of clarification, this is the sort of stuff theyve suggested i read:

http://www.activetradermag.com/assets/news/story_excerpts/jan09/grady0109.pdf

Unless ive just misunderstood the purpose (i.e. they want me to understand order flow, rather than scalping techniques)


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> I'm really new when it comes to day trading so if there is somewhere else i should be focusing my efforts (like utilising intra-day ranges) then I'm certainly going to heed that advice.




Mate get some sort of setup and just play.* DO NOT APPROACH WITH PRECONCEIVED METHOD.*


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## CanOz (5 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> As a point of clarification, this is the sort of stuff theyve suggested i read:
> 
> http://www.activetradermag.com/assets/news/story_excerpts/jan09/grady0109.pdf
> 
> Unless ive just misunderstood the purpose (i.e. they want me to understand order flow, rather than scalping techniques)




Thats good stuff from John Grady, i've got his book as well. He trades thicker markets and doesn't like Crude, DAX etc. Its difficult to see what going on in the book, thats why i like the K200. That particular play happens quite frequently on the K200. 

So there you go, NT and IB and the K200 for starters. I'm not much more advance than you and find this the best market to learn, in Asia. 

CanOz


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.

I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?

I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.
> 
> I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?
> 
> I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there




http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/...how&literal=1&search="volume+at+price"&desc=1

a couple indicators here to ad it to charts


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## CanOz (5 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.
> 
> I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?
> 
> I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there




Use the SuperDOM. File, New, Dynamic SuperDom

Make sure its linked to you chart via the color link in the right hand corner.

CanOz


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## tech/a (5 July 2012)

FTSE


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> Use the SuperDOM. File, New, Dynamic SuperDom
> 
> Make sure its linked to you chart via the color link in the right hand corner.
> 
> CanOz




Tried that and it's not showing up - I can get the volume fine up on the charts (thanks for that great link btw TH) but the DOM won't display total volume traded at each tick. Did some searching online and apparently it's not supported? Oh well.

Tech/a cheers for the suggestion - will watch that market for a bit. See if the FTSE/KS200/S&P minis are my thing.

You've all been wonderul, thanks for taking the time to help!


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## KurwaJegoMac (5 July 2012)

Just realised can't do K200 - it's 10am to 6pm aest so too early for me...

Prob do ES given its 24/7. Worried about my connection if i try FTsE


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## CanOz (5 July 2012)

Show us a screenshot of the DOM. You may need to pay for level II on some markets.

CanOz


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## boofis (6 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Prob do ES given its 24/7.




Not all of those hours are equal imo. You'll probably notice some difference between sessions, and depending on how you end up trading, you'll soon find which/when you prefer.


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## KurwaJegoMac (6 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> Show us a screenshot of the DOM. You may need to pay for level II on some markets.
> 
> CanOz




Ahh that might explain it. At the moment i'm using a free market feed from Mirus as I'm only observing for now until I work out what market I might like to trade. Then I'll go through IB. Cheers CanOz.



boofis said:


> Not all of those hours are equal imo. You'll probably notice some difference between sessions, and depending on how you end up trading, you'll soon find which/when you prefer.




Indeed. I've been watching a few markets here and there and trading is very different throughout the day. As a result, I was preferring to try and catch morning sessions of overseas markets as they seem to be what most people trade.

I'll keep watching over the next few weeks and see if the ES/FTSE suits. Cheers boofis.


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## white_goodman (6 July 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Ahh that might explain it. At the moment i'm using a free market feed from Mirus as I'm only observing for now until I work out what market I might like to trade. Then I'll go through IB. Cheers CanOz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




id agree with TH, just muck around a bit, place as many trades as possible, best way to learn how to manage them/risk etc.. not going to learn nearly as quick placing 3 trades a day
I would take the info from Propex training with a grain of salt, the guy that runs it has never traded futures intraday in his life, a classic trader of charts when its already happened


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## Gringotts Bank (5 September 2012)

FP Markets offering $5 futures CFD contracts.  

Thought it might be a good way to try my hand at futures trading.

Any good?

http://www.fpmarkets.com.au/futures/why-trade-futures


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> FP Markets offering $5 futures CFD contracts.
> 
> Thought it might be a good way to try my hand at futures trading.
> 
> ...




They are not futures but cfds. You might as well use igmarkets if you're going to go that way. They have AUD $1 contracts. Still not fut thou.


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## Gringotts Bank (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> They are not futures but cfds. You might as well use igmarkets if you're going to go that way. They have AUD $1 contracts. Still not fut thou.




Thanks.

IG have the Australia200 [edit].  Is that their futures cfd?

Any negatives with trading that?


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Thanks.
> 
> IG have the asx200.  Is that their futures cfd?
> 
> Any negatives with trading that?




If its short term trading you couldn't pick a worst market to trade and a worst instrument to trade it. If its longer term stuff then I guess its ok.


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## Joules MM1 (5 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Thanks.
> 
> IG have the Australia200 [edit].  Is that their futures cfd?
> 
> Any negatives with trading that?




know the instrument well before taking it on as youre trading against the maker most of the time and not the price moves of the fute or the cash......be warey of being trapped after hours, see if the spread widens.....


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## Joules MM1 (5 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Thanks.
> 
> IG have the Australia200 [edit].  Is that their futures cfd?
> 
> Any negatives with trading that?




you want to track the cfd especially on fast moves that appear to be terminal points, cfd makers are notorious for overshooting , they get the cheap supply or the high position short entrance beyond where the cash went....= cash level based stops are prone to being taken out.....


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## Gringotts Bank (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> If its short term trading you couldn't pick a worst market to trade and a worst instrument to trade it. If its longer term stuff then I guess its ok.




I'm thinking maybe 3+days hold.  Long enough?


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## Joules MM1 (5 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Thanks.
> 
> IG have the Australia200 [edit].  Is that their futures cfd?
> 
> Any negatives with trading that?




and your other questions to them might consist; who sets the day prices, who sets the post cash prices.....watch how your cfd acts during and directly after the post cash 10 min auction....clues are in there so are hooks and its a game all unto itself in that period......


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

Joules MM1 said:


> and your other questions to them might consist; who sets the day prices, who sets the post cash prices.....watch how your cfd acts during and directly after the post cash 10 min auction....clues are in there so are hooks and its a game all unto itself in that period......




Joules do you only have CFD data?


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## Gringotts Bank (5 September 2012)

Joules MM1 said:


> and your other questions to them might consist; who sets the day prices, who sets the post cash prices.....watch how your cfd acts during and directly after the post cash 10 min auction....clues are in there so are hooks and its a game all unto itself in that period......




Wouldn't the price3 be set by traders?  I assume IG would take the traders positions and deal directly in the SPI200?


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> They are not futures but cfds. You might as well use igmarkets if you're going to go that way. They have AUD $1 contracts. Still not fut thou.




FP Markets product are *DMA *CFD's though, not Market Maker. What are IG Markets - are they market maker ones?


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

AlterEgo said:


> FP Markets product are *DMA *CFD's though, not Market Maker. What are IG Markets - are they market maker ones?




Not the indexes. They are all MM


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not the indexes. They are all MM




FP Markets specifically state that the Future CFD's are DMA.


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

AlterEgo said:


> FP Markets specifically state that the Future CFD's are DMA.




How can they be $5 per tick then?


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not the indexes. They are all MM




Quote from recent email from FP Markets. When speaking to one of the FPM guys on the phone some months ago, he also stated they would have DMA Futures very soon.

_Access all the major futures exchanges from your existing CFD account for just $5 per contract.*
• Sydney Futures Exchange (SFE)
• NYSE LIFFE
• EUREX
• CME
• CBT

Enjoy the benefits of trading on low margin requirements, great commission rates and transparent pricing when trading *DMA* CFD futures from your existing webIRESS account._


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

AlterEgo said:


> Quote from recent email from FP Markets. When speaking to one of the FPM guys on the phone some months ago




Mate he's BSing you. How can it be DMA when the contacts are $10 to $25? What are they selling 1/2 a contract for you? 

Thats like selling 1/2 a share. Cannot be done. As far as I know there is only 1 fut with a $5 tick size. Aussie SPI is $25.


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

And why would you want to trade futs through a CFD provider? Just open a futs account and get exchange protection, 1/4 brokerage and no interest charges.

CFDs are like religion. I cannot believe people still go for it.


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Mate he's BSing you. How can it be DMA when the contacts are $10 to $25? What are they selling 1/2 a contract for you?
> 
> Thats like selling 1/2 a share. Cannot be done. As far as I know there is only 1 fut with a $5 tick size. Aussie SPI is $25.




Don't know. Maybe that is a different product of theirs that you are referring to. My understanding is that the DMA ones are only a very recent addition to their range. But I haven't looked in to it in any detail.


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> And why would you want to trade futs through a CFD provider? Just open a futs account and get exchange protection, 1/4 brokerage and no interest charges.
> 
> CFDs are like religion. I cannot believe people still go for it.




Just to be clear, I have *not *signed up for their futures. Only trading their DMA shares at the moment, as the pricing is identical to the real market, and the commissions are significantly less then trading actual shares.


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## AlterEgo (5 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Mate he's BSing you. How can it be DMA when the contacts are $10 to $25? What are they selling 1/2 a contract for you?
> 
> Thats like selling 1/2 a share. Cannot be done. As far as I know there is only 1 fut with a $5 tick size. Aussie SPI is $25.




Does this sound right - £10 per index point on the FTSE? So total of 1 contract based on their example is £53,010. From http://www.fpmarkets.com.au/futures/


_FP Markets offers DMA (Direct Market Access) CFD Futures which enables exposure to global futures exchanges from your CFD account.

As an example take the FTSE 100 CFD. In this case FP Markets’ prices quoted will match the underlying prices of EUREX. Each Point the index goes in your favour you gain £10 and each point the index goes against you the loss will be £10.

The FTSE 100 contract is the equivalent of £10 per index point.

The current quote for the FTSE 100 is 5300.5 – 5301.0. You wish to buy one contract at the offered asking price of 5300.0.

Opening Position – 5301.0 x 10 = £53,010_


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## Trembling Hand (5 September 2012)

FTSE contract is £10 but even if they have a new contract coming why would you trade them? You are adding another middle man with extra cost, lots of them and extra latency.

Why don't people just trade futures??


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## skc (5 September 2012)

AlterEgo said:


> Just to be clear, I have *not *signed up for their futures. Only trading their DMA shares at the moment, as the pricing is identical to the real market, and the commissions are significantly less then trading actual shares.




They called it DMA because you get a direct data feed from the exchange, rather than some made up price.

But you are still trading with them as your principal, and not actually holding a futures contract or anything like that.

Also, you always have to cross the spread when you trade these index products.


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## tech/a (6 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> FTSE contract is £10 but even if they have a new contract coming why would you trade them? You are adding another middle man with extra cost, lots of them and extra latency.
> 
> Why don't people just trade futures??




+1.


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## Joules MM1 (6 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Joules do you only have CFD data?




during trade time
my screens consist of basic data, a cfd platform over two screens, charts only
on a laptop (using global mouse) forex news release times, twitter, generic cash chart, finviz

----------------------------

i agree from an execution pov about the futures v cfd conversation.....of course, just makes sense......the only advantage for a new player is the size factor, engaging on small size for many a single es is just too big, they shouldnt be trading if the size if too  big, but that's their area not mine, they can't get cheap enough fees even tho, yeah, the con for difference is actually more expensive as a  ratio of a single cfd transaction and of course the feed is distorted and lags altho, again, given their starting point, those issues dont become real issues till their profficiencies lift, as soon as they get close to fast execution they encounter the challenges that some systems wont be efficient with cfd's......

the pay-off for poor execution and coloured pricing is the size factor alone, that's all.......cfd's carry huge disadvantages over exchange feeds and most players are not aware of how the mm can simply drive straight thru a cash  pricing on a  news release and claim liquidity or supply/demand as a reason for bloating the price which is obviously in the providers favour.......these things can be dealt with with experience and screen time and eventually taken as an advantage


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## Trembling Hand (6 September 2012)

Joules MM1 said:


> cfd's carry huge disadvantages over exchange feeds and most players are not aware of how the* mm can simply drive straight thru a cash  pricing* on a  news release and claim liquidity or supply/demand as a reason for bloating the price which is obviously in the providers favour.




Really? Joules thats mostly just not true. If you had Live futs data, which I cannot believe people trade indexes without it, you'd see that its the futs that are moving beyond cash prices. Imagine the arb opportunities if there was two trade-able instruments that diverged!! 

its the futs man, the futs.


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## >Apocalypto< (8 September 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I've been trading shares on the ASX (several weeks/months holding time) and I'm looking at getting into futures day trading. As I have a lot to learn before I can be consistently profitable I'm not quite ready to leave the day job just yet, which means I'm only available until after 6pm weekdays and all day/night weekends.
> 
> ...




AUDJPY and CL (oil) for me start audjpy at 4:30 OIL mainly after 6


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## CanOz (8 September 2012)

>Apocalypto< said:


> AUDJPY and CL (oil) for me start audjpy at 4:30 OIL mainly after 6




Heya mate, longtime no see!

CanOz


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## >Apocalypto< (8 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> Heya mate, longtime no see!
> 
> CanOz




Hi can Oz,
Yeh sure has, I stopped all posting on trading forums... found it helped  ......  nah I bought a business start of last year and used my trading acc to part fund it... so haven’t really been trading till this year had no time last year...  Back on GoMarkets for crude and pepperstone for FX still don’t have the spare cash to get back into IB properly properly.  Trading doing ok i am still using the floor trader method on crude with some tweaks, using price and round numbers on AUDJPY.

How’s life in china? I was there last year and was shocked at the inflation... the old 100RMB doesn’t last as long as it did a few years ago. 

How are the markets treating you?

cheers,

Joseph


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## CanOz (8 September 2012)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Hi can Oz,
> Yeh sure has, I stopped all posting on trading forums... found it helped  ......  nah I bought a business start of last year and used my trading acc to part fund it... so haven’t really been trading till this year had no time last year...  Back on GoMarkets for crude and pepperstone for FX still don’t have the spare cash to get back into IB properly properly.  Trading doing ok i am still using the floor trader method on crude with some tweaks, using price and round numbers on AUDJPY.
> 
> How’s life in china? I was there last year and was shocked at the inflation... the old 100RMB doesn’t last as long as it did a few years ago.
> ...




Life in china is a little tougher right now....we've moved temporarily to taiyuan. I've taken a position here to try and help out a friend with his business. Other than that it been great. 

I've taken a break from trading, after giving myself a years to become profitable at day trading index futs. Oddly enough my last week was profitable trading the hang seng mini and the FESX, but net net it was back to work for me. I've not given up though, just a break.

I felt I accomplished allot during that time, the primary thing being to settle on a descretionary method and stick to it.

Personally i prefer futures to anything else. The FESX is only 10 EUR per point, and margin is only a couple thou. I can take 8 to 10 contracts on a twenty k account.

We'll have to chat more in PM mate!

Cheers,

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> Life in china is a little tougher right now....we've moved temporarily to taiyuan. I've taken a position here to try and help out a friend with his business. Other than that it been great.
> 
> I've taken a break from trading, after giving myself a years to become profitable at day trading index futs. Oddly enough my last week was profitable trading the hang seng mini and the FESX, but net net it was back to work for me. I've not given up though, just a break.
> 
> ...




Is 10 contracts on a 20K account fairly aggressive?

Do you get a few good trades an evening? What sort of potential is there in terms of profit using 20K?

I just started out on the FTSE futures last evening.


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## Trembling Hand (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Do you get a few good trades an evening? What sort of potential is there in terms of profit using 20K?




That is actually a silly question. You have the data, watch and learn, find patterns, trade - repeat. ONLY then will your question be anywhere near answered.

If I told you that there is 15 good trades a night what would you do with that info?


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## skc (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Is 10 contracts on a 20K account fairly aggressive?
> I just started out on the FTSE futures last evening.




Sounds waaaaaaaaay too aggressive for anyone, let alone a beginner.

That's 100 GBP per point on a $20k (assuming $Aussie) account.... a 3 tick loss = 2%. You got to be pretty precise with your entry to achieve this. I think most futures day trader would have a daily loss limit well below 2%, and hence a per trade loss limit substantially below that again.


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> That is actually a silly question. You have the data, watch and learn, find patterns, trade - repeat. ONLY then will your question be anywhere near answered.
> 
> If I told you that there is 15 good trades a night what would you do with that info?




That is what I have begun to do. As someone who has spent almost 2 years developing a strategy before even commencing in the market I am not someone looking for shortcuts. 

I am just curious as to how profitable people on here are trading the FTSE and if they usually sit there all night or take a few trades in a couple of hours and then go do something else. 

I will no doubt continue the hard work.


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

skc said:


> Sounds waaaaaaaaay too aggressive for anyone, let alone a beginner.
> 
> That's 100 GBP per point on a $20k (assuming $Aussie) account.... a 3 tick loss = 2%. You got to be pretty precise with your entry to achieve this. I think most futures day trader would have a daily loss limit well below 2%, and hence a per trade loss limit substantially below that again.




Yeh it sounded very large to me on a 20K account. Even on the sim now I'm trading a single contract just to get used to it.


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## CanOz (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Yeh it sounded very large to me on a 20K account. Even on the sim now I'm trading a single contract just to get used to it.





Yes, it could be too much if that was your only trading capital. I have 20k in that account. Full stop is 5 ticks x 8 contracts for 400 eur. My total trading capital is about 2.5 times that with IB at the moment. So I have another account that I had setup for my auto trading but is dormant now as I has sent a substantial portion of it overseas to a family member on loan. So using my total capital at hand, the 400 eur full stop is acceptable.

I take five contracts off at three ticks profit. Two more at the first target and the remaining one is the runner.

I go to BE after five ticks of profit, or sooner depending on the tape.

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (20 September 2012)

CanOz said:
			
		

> Yes, it could be too much if that was your only trading capital. I have 20k in that account. Full stop is 5 ticks x 8 contracts for 400 eur. My total trading capital is about 2.5 times that with IB at the moment. So I have another account that I had setup for my auto trading but is dormant now as I has sent a substantial portion of it overseas to a family member on loan. So using my total capital at hand, the 400 eur full stop is acceptable.
> 
> I take five contracts off at three ticks profit. Two more at the first target and the remaining one is the runner.
> 
> ...




Interesting. It seems like a high risk/reward approach with this account.

Do you trade most evenings? Does the account grow fairly quickly?


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## CanOz (20 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Interesting. It seems like a high risk/reward approach with this account.
> 
> Do you trade most evenings? Does the account grow fairly quickly?




I'm not trading now Pav. If you read my posts you'd see that I had become profitable in my last week of fulltime trading before taking on a new position in a Chinese company.

The key was however, that I had a decent win rate as I would get into the trade as the orders hit the book and most of the time I could get at least three ticks. This is a mean reversion strategy, using volume profile so you take trades back towards value. When it doesn't work well, are trend days. You need enough experience to recognize those days and either get in on the pullbacks, or scale back/step aside.

Anyway, you need to put in the screen time if you want trade descretionary. 

CanOz


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## >Apocalypto< (26 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Interesting. It seems like a high risk/reward approach with this account.
> 
> Do you trade most evenings? Does the account grow fairly quickly?




how you finding the FTSE on the short term Pav?


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## Galham (25 March 2021)

CanOz said:


> Your choices are quite varied in terms of thickness, average daily range, commissions, margin etc. You really should pop onto a SIM and trade a few. Are you day swing trading, Scalping in and out frequently?
> 
> For example, in Europe the FESX is a great instrument to trade if you're willing to hang on. Its 10 EUR a tick and moves slowly, is thick as f*** with a ton of liquidity. The DAX on the other hand is more like the Crude Oil, its fast and thin. At 12.5 EUR a tick it can clean you out in a hurry.
> 
> ...



CanOz,

I’m a beginner and keen to look at futures and mini futures day trading. What I can find online is US locals starting at 0930 ET when NY wakes up. You mentioned that futures is good 24/7 ? I was under the impression it goes flat.
Also what platform do you use ? I’ve just downloaded Ninjatrader to train on demo platform. Any help would be very much appreciated ! So glad I found an Aussie chat Among the many US based once.
Cheers


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