# Forex trading - what are the negatives?



## bugmenot (1 September 2009)

Hey,

I was wondering what are the reasons NOT to trade in the foreign exchange market.

I have seen some websites regarding this issue but I was never sure if it's a good idea..

can anyone tell me why I shouldn't be trading that market?

thanks!


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## lasty (1 September 2009)

bugmenot said:


> Hey,
> 
> I was wondering what are the reasons NOT to trade in the foreign exchange market.
> 
> ...




You shouldnt trade it if;
You've been influenced by a platform provider to use their system.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

- 95% of people lose money....
- Market is open 24hrs and is very volatile, meaning not much sleep if you wanna watch short term positions
- 99% of brokers want you to LOSE money (market makers)
- no fixed exchange
- hard to scalp due to 'noise' and size of some spreads
- too many people flogging 'systems' and EA's that waste time, money and effort
- offer too much leverage which can wipe out the inexperienced


Positives:
- you tend to develop a more worldy view
- can start with small amount of cash (micro and nano lots), but dont expect to turn $500 into a $million
- market always open
- very trendy, with macro fundamentals (inflation, unemployment, interest rate differentials, GDP, net producer/consumer etc etc)
- little 'insider trading' or manipulation (except the odd central bank ie SNB as of late) as the market is too liquid to be moved by a few players.
- strong correlation to other markets and as such you develop good intermarket analysis
- lots of good websites on the net (same with stock trading I guess)
- seems to be a growing market for retail players (probably the reason for the 95% figure)

probably a few more but these are off the top of my head


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

mr white has summed it up best.

read what he has said, and think about each point, as it is important.

especially 95% of people lose + commercial EAs being sold are junk and cost you your funds, not only their purchase price if you use them.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> - little 'insider trading' or manipulation (except the odd central bank ie SNB as of late) as the market is too liquid to be moved by a few players.




Sorry but you have his completely ar$e about. Markets that are _moved _for whatever reason are the perfect markets to trade.

The high liquidity makes FX Sh!te as far as movements. That's why you nuts have to use such high leverage.

You can always rely on the FX guys to spew the marketing speal .............too funny.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Sorry but you have his completely ar$e about. Markets that are _moved _for whatever reason are the perfect markets to trade..




didnt I just agree with that?

unless your saying you prefer markets that are illiquid?


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> didnt I just agree with that?
> 
> unless your saying you prefer markets that are illiquid?




You are implying that because the FX markets are so big they are not easily "manipulated" correct?

But what does a manipulated market do thats so undesirable to a trader?


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You are implying that because the FX markets are so big they are not easily "manipulated" correct?
> 
> But what does a manipulated market do thats so undesirable to a trader?




fair point I guess, it was more a comment on one person not being able to move/distort a market


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## overit (1 September 2009)

bugmenot said:


> I was wondering what are the reasons NOT to trade in the foreign exchange market.
> 
> can anyone tell me why I shouldn't be trading that market?




You will get a sore back from carrying all your money and gold bling bling around!

Your typical forex trader!


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## Glen48 (1 September 2009)

And which ever trade you pick and research the market will do the opposite.


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## Glen48 (1 September 2009)

Question:
 Is it worth while going long and short on the same trade and hoping you will end up with some profit?


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> fair point I guess, it was more a comment on one person not being able to move/distort a market




But who cares. You want/need a bunch or one person to move a market. If they don't you have nothing to get on.

Whats the ATR for the EURUSD in %? About 1% per day for a 24hour market. That's a tiny move. As a consequence you have to use large leverage to milk the tiny moves. Opening yourself up to a black swan coming and sh!tting on your head.

The liquidity is a negative.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Question:
> Is it worth while going long and short on the same trade and hoping you will end up with some profit?




that would only really work as a carry trade with one account as a muslim account...

or if you have scalping and long term strategies in the one account... 

some grid traders use it but NFA has brought in rules against it for US brokers


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Question:
> Is it worth while going long and short on the same trade and hoping you will end up with some profit?




different trading systems might have you long term buy and short term sell in the same market.

that's why the NFA rules are silly. it messes with multiple different, independent systems running on a single account.


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> But who cares. You want/need a bunch or one person to move a market. If they don't you have nothing to get on.
> 
> Whats the ATR for the EURUSD in %? About 1% per day for a 24hour market. That's a tiny move. As a consequence you have to use large leverage to milk the tiny moves. Opening yourself up to a black swan coming and sh!tting on your head.
> 
> The liquidity is a negative.




you use a SL and correct money management. then the black swan only ****s on a small % of your account.

kinda like being long on telstra shares last week, and the future fund dumping them.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

oh another major advantage is that the market doesnt gap....

except the odd NFP announcement for a few pips or if something happens on the weekend


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

Stormin_Norman said:


> you use a SL and correct money management. then the black swan only ****s on a small % of your account.
> 
> kinda like being long on telstra shares last week, and the future fund dumping them.




LOL!

That's what causes  black swan. When the religious devotees think they are covered.


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## lasty (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL!
> 
> That's what causes  black swan. When the religious devotees think they are covered.




Black Swan, White Swan, Mother Goose.. not forgetting the Crow (fark) Thats FX. It encourages all types of creatures.We dont discriminate.
Its Formula One without the safety car.
Volatility is our friend and stability our enemy.
Other markets dont come close.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

lasty said:


> Black Swan, White Swan, Mother Goose.. not forgetting the Crow (fark) Thats FX. It encourages all types of creatures.We dont discriminate.
> Its Formula One without the safety car.
> Volatility is our friend and stability our enemy.
> Other markets dont come close.




You are saying that FX is volatile? Compared to what? watching paint dry?


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## ThingyMajiggy (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You are saying that FX is volatile? Compared to what? watching paint dry?




LOL! Thanks for the coffee up the nose  Go long on Dulux!!


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## Mr J (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Whats the ATR for the EURUSD in %? About 1% per day for a 24hour market. That's a tiny move. As a consequence you have to use large leverage to milk the tiny moves. Opening yourself up to a black swan coming and sh!tting on your head.




Are you suggesting that the market can move a few cents and not allow a small trader to get out? I'd need the market to move maybe 10 cents before it's a 'distaster', and even then I've probably still got at least half of my balance. You can't throw out these comments without addressing futures, and the leverage you have used. I'm sure a black swan would've ruined your day as much as any responsible fx trader.


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## lasty (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You are saying that FX is volatile? Compared to what? watching paint dry?




You can make it as volatile as you want...because you can.

No fear No tears


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## lasty (1 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Are you suggesting that the market can move a few cents and not allow a small trader to get out? I'd need the market to move maybe 10 cents before it's a 'distaster', and even then I've probably still got at least half of my balance. You can't throw out these comments without addressing futures, and the leverage you have used. I'm sure a black swan would've ruined your day as much as any responsible fx trader.




There is always liquidity in FX and if not the CB's add it.
In other markets what do they do? Turn the machine off.. Pick up their bat and ball and go home.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Are you suggesting that the market can move a few cents and not allow a small trader to get out? I'd need the market to move maybe 10 cents before it's a 'distaster', and even then I've probably still got at least half of my balance. You can't throw out these comments without addressing futures, and the leverage you have used. I'm sure a black swan would've ruined your day as much as any responsible fx trader.




You have no idea the leverage I use. The contracts are leveraged but that doesn't mean my account is.

I'd like to see unleveraged returns from a FX trader. Actually I'd like to see a FX trader NOT using leverage and you will soon see that FX is not volatile.

Therefore you need leverage, therefore if you guys where honest or awake you would realize that FX liquidity is forcing you to play with way more money that you have.


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## lasty (1 September 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You have no idea the leverage I use. The contracts are leveraged but that doesn't mean my account is.
> 
> I'd like to see unleveraged returns from a FX trader. Actually I'd like to see a FX trader NOT using leverage and you will soon see that FX is not volatile.
> 
> Therefore you need leverage, therefore if you guys where honest or awake you would realize that FX liquidity is forcing you to play with way more money that you have.




A bit like buying a house.. a car.. a wife...


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## Mr J (1 September 2009)

No, I don't know how much leverage you use, but I don't believe you'd be trying to capture a 10 point move of the SPI while covering most of that contract yourself. To achieve a reasonable return, we use a reasonable amount of leverage.



> I'd like to see unleveraged returns from a FX trader. Actually I'd like to see a FX trader NOT using leverage and you will soon see that FX is not volatile.




I doubt any of us need to be told this TH. In percentage terms, it is obvious that fx moves little, and that we use leverage to amplify this movement. It's the same, to a lesser extent, in futures.



> Therefore you need leverage, therefore if you guys where honest or awake you would realize that FX liquidity is forcing you to play with way more money that you have.




I'm completely aware of that fact, but your argument doesn't have practical sense for someone using leverage in a reasonable manner. I use enough leverage to turn 10-100 pip moves into worthwhile gains, but I'd still need a 20 cent move to wipe me out. If this were to happen, I suspect that my financial worth will be the least of my troubles. Leverage is fine if appropriately managed.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

lasty said:


> Volatility is our friend and stability our enemy.




Back to the orginal point about lack of volitilty is not a positive of FX.

no more to say.


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

everything's relative. the movement and the leverage. 

that's why i trade FX. small movement, large leverage. no premarket nonsense. no close of market waiting for a gap against me when the next bar opens.

there are lots of negitives. but leverage is only dangerous if used recklessly.


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## Mr J (1 September 2009)

It's volatile when amplified, and the risk in amplification is reasonable. Feel free to convince me why a GFC-type event, *without the possibility of exiting a position for days - even weeks -* is a reasonable expectation, and why I would be any better off in futures. I accept the risk, and consider these events unlikely, especially the inability to exit the position.


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## Trembling Hand (1 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> It's volatile when amplified, *and the risk in amplification is reasonable.* Feel free to convince me why a GFC-type event, without the possibility of exiting a position for days - even weeks - is a reasonable expectation, and why I would be any better off in futures. I accept the risk, and consider these events unlikely, especially the inability to exit the position.




Mr J how about taking less time in needing to argue and more time in thinking. For starters I never said you should be in futs. FFS!!!

But your thin thinking and post above is perfect example,

Leverage amplification is not Linear.


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## Mr J (1 September 2009)

No, I meant that it seemed you suggested futures were less risky, due to less amplification. My point was that an event that wipes me out in forex would have also wiped me out in futures. More amplified, but the risk seems similar.



> Leverage amplification is not Linear.
> Today 01:05 PM




Yes, which is why I consider my 'Black Swan' to be so unlikely, far less likely than a highly-leveraged scalper suffering a 100 pip spike. It won't be a black swan for me though, because I consider it a possibility .


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## Naked shorts (1 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> - hard to scalp due to 'noise' and size of some spreads
> - little 'insider trading' or manipulation (except the odd central bank ie SNB as of late) as the market is too liquid to be moved by a few players.



Not hard to scalp if you are playing with the futures.
Plenty of insider trading going on, I have attached a report that goes into detail about such practices. 



Glen48 said:


> Question:
> Is it worth while going long and short on the same trade and hoping you will end up with some profit?



In addition to Whites comments on this topic, some people also use this strategy to create a straddle position just before a news event.


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## white_goodman (1 September 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Not hard to scalp if you are playing with the futures.
> Plenty of insider trading going on, I have attached a report that goes into detail about such practices.
> 
> 
> In addition to Whites comments on this topic, some people also use this strategy to create a straddle position just before a news event.




whats a straddle position....

is it sorta going long and short just before NFP.... wwhatever gain that will be made will be large, so accept a loss one way and the larger win the other?


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

pending order 20 pips above price.

pending order 20 pips below price.

u hope the market goes in one direction and hits the pending order, and keeps going for another 100 pips.

that's the theory.

i dont like it too much. im testing an alternative using correlated currency and entry before news.


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## Naked shorts (1 September 2009)

If done with a pending order, the spreads are complete crap (as to be expecting during a news event). If your orders are actually entered a min or so before the news event you are able to take advantage of decent spreads.

Its not a strategy I would recommend pursuing.


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## Stormin_Norman (1 September 2009)

yep. i look to enter just before news on correlated pairs.

ie long on eurousd and usdchf - and have 25SL and 50TP for eg.


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## Miro (9 September 2009)

I've got a question. Let's say you believe AUD is gonna gain against USD. Can you "bet" on AUD, leverage it up (let's say 1:10) and wait until it happens (days / weeks)? Or do you guys usually do day trading with leverage up to 1:100.


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## Naked shorts (9 September 2009)

Miro said:


> I've got a question. Let's say you believe AUD is gonna gain against USD. Can you "bet" on AUD, leverage it up (let's say 1:10) and wait until it happens (days / weeks)? Or do you guys usually do day trading with leverage up to 1:100.




Yes, you most definitely can do that. Almost all FX brokers offer leverage (because most people need it to make FX worthwhile).

Ive seen leverage ranging from 1:1 to 500:1.


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## fapturbo (9 September 2009)

What has leverage got to do with it?

It's risk per trade that matters.

Account size determines postion size. Not how much leverage your account has.

Leverage determines how much margin is used.


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## Miro (9 September 2009)

fapturbo said:


> What has leverage got to do with it?
> 
> It's risk per trade that matters.
> 
> ...




yea you're completely right. not too many people buy stocks with leverage but nearly everyone trade currencies with high leverage, that's why I mentioned it


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## Mr J (9 September 2009)

Miro said:


> yea you're completely right. not too many people buy stocks with leverage but nearly everyone trade currencies with high leverage, that's why I mentioned it




Almost everyone uses leverage, many just don't know it. Currency leverage is high, but as someone else said, it needs to be because the moves are far smaller in percentage terms than stocks.


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## cctrouble (9 September 2009)

Anyone used UFX Bank? I have received a few phone calls but they sound international. I have previously used oanda.com and am seriously considering using them instead.


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## lasty (10 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Almost everyone uses leverage, many just don't know it. Currency leverage is high, but as someone else said, it needs to be because the moves are far smaller in percentage terms than stocks.




If you are talking about movements from high to low as a percentage then yes but intraday no.
FX trades 24 hours with full liquidity stocks trade 6 hours.
Most FX players trade the top 6 currency pairs.
I would be interested to see the top 6 stocks as a percentage movement.

Who has that mapping ???


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## overit (10 September 2009)

Its an emotional rollacoaster! I suffer from trading tourrettes frequently. 

For a minute I thought someone had recorded my webcam!


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## lasty (10 September 2009)

overit said:


> Its an emotional rollacoaster! I suffer from trading tourrettes frequently.
> 
> For a minute I thought someone had recorded my webcam!





A bit like marriage but we all seem to be lured into the "honey Pot"


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## Mr J (10 September 2009)

lasty said:


> If you are talking about movements from high to low as a percentage then yes but intraday no.
> FX trades 24 hours with full liquidity stocks trade 6 hours.
> Most FX players trade the top 6 currency pairs.
> I would be interested to see the top 6 stocks as a percentage movement.
> ...




I said as a percentage, and it's not a rule. Example, the aud has rallied 50%, similar to the stock market.



> Its an emotional rollacoaster! I suffer from trading tourrettes frequently.




I can't help but laugh at both wins and losses. Experienced enough of both not to care anymore .


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## >Apocalypto< (7 November 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Sorry but you have his completely ar$e about. Markets that are _moved _for whatever reason are the perfect markets to trade.
> 
> The high liquidity makes FX Sh!te as far as movements. That's why you nuts have to use such high leverage.




Great point TH, this is exactly why I find myself only trading the GBP/JPY


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## caribean (7 November 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Mr J how about taking less time in needing to argue and more time in thinking. For starters I never said you should be in futs. FFS!!!
> 
> But your thin thinking and post above is perfect example,
> 
> Leverage amplification is not Linear.




Well then, perhaps you care to tell us what instrument you are comparing Forex, to.


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## Naked shorts (7 November 2009)

TH left here, dont be expecting a response from him.


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## caribean (7 November 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> TH left here, dont be expecting a response from him.




Really??
I'm saddened, in a low margined, highly leveraged, non linear, forex trading way....


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## caribean (7 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Great point TH, this is exactly why I find myself only trading the GBP/JPY




That is a pearler of a post, if you don't mind me saying so (I'm sure you do)
Of course coming from an expert on pearler's


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## Mr J (8 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Great point TH, this is exactly why I find myself only trading the GBP/JPY




Doesn't make sense to me. I risk $100, it doesn't matter whether it is on the eur/usd, or on the gbp/jpy with it's larger range. It's all adjusted. TH went on a crusade, but I don't see the point he was making. A market is a market. He mentioned risk wasn't linear, but it's trading range and how size is adjusted to suit the trading range that matters. Feel free to prove me wrong with numbers.


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## >Apocalypto< (9 November 2009)

Mr J said:


> Doesn't make sense to me. I risk $100, it doesn't matter whether it is on the eur/usd, or on the gbp/jpy with it's larger range. It's all adjusted. TH went on a crusade, but I don't see the point he was making. A market is a market. He mentioned risk wasn't linear, but it's trading range and how size is adjusted to suit the trading range that matters. Feel free to prove me wrong with numbers.




today tonight I made 58500 JPY in 6 trades. If I had sat on the eur/usd I would have made about half of that in USD. ( sixth I closed to bloody early!)

when you trade a 1min chart with low TP targets the higher the range the better.

On top of that the GBP/JPY has deeper drives. were a euro trade may reverse with not getting to my tp area the G/J will tail into it allowing me to get out.

makes a massive difference to my return. I know this cuz I started on the eur/usd then went to cable with USD/JPY, then to G/J with U/J now only focus on the G/J

There not the same market at all, they're very different. I take it you have not spent a lot of time on the JPY pairs... or down at 1min with them....

cheers


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## >Apocalypto< (9 November 2009)

caribean said:


> That is a pearler of a post, if you don't mind me saying so (I'm sure you do)
> Of course coming from an expert on pearler's




I agree with TH on this, 

after spending months on the u/j and the cable, they just don't deliver in a consistent basis like the G/J does. It's personal preference guys, I am not sitting on a time frame above 1min so volatility matters to me. With out it I am dead in the water, also 4 hours a day is all I am interested in spending glued to a screen.

I run into the same arguments in Forex Factory all the time. we all trade different ways in different times. there's no right way only your way.

good piping!


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## >Apocalypto< (9 November 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> TH left here, dont be expecting a response from him.




what happened???


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## >Apocalypto< (9 November 2009)

Mr J said:


> Doesn't make sense to me. I risk $100, it doesn't matter whether it is on the eur/usd, or on the gbp/jpy with it's larger range. It's all adjusted. TH went on a crusade, but I don't see the point he was making. A market is a market. He mentioned risk wasn't linear, but it's trading range and how size is adjusted to suit the trading range that matters. Feel free to prove me wrong with numbers.




your post has been a help thank you.

the euro actually suits a new Idea I have!

Cheers!


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## aramz (10 November 2009)

Overit I just watched that video clip at least 10 times and I was in stitches. That guy is a damn good actor.


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## Kremmen (10 November 2009)

white_goodman said:


> - Market is open 24hrs and is very volatile, meaning not much sleep if you wanna watch short term positions




This seems to be the big one to me. There are pro traders who have alert systems on their mobiles, pagers, etc, to be kept informed of movements on their positions at any time. My response is: Hell, no! Too much effort. Too little sleep. Too much intrusion into life. Like working in Saudi Arabia, it's something I would have considered doing for a limited time in my 20's.


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## >Apocalypto< (10 November 2009)

Kremmen said:


> This seems to be the big one to me. There are pro traders who have alert systems on their mobiles, pagers, etc, to be kept informed of movements on their positions at any time. My response is: Hell, no! Too much effort. Too little sleep. Too much intrusion into life. Like working in Saudi Arabia, it's something I would have considered doing for a limited time in my 20's.




That's why i limit my trading to a section of the day. I trade a 4 hour block.... trying to trade 24/7 leads to other problems.


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## Mr J (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> There not the same market at all, they're very different. I take it you have not spent a lot of time on the JPY pairs... or down at 1min with them...




No, I usually trade the 4hr or slower these days, and don't have much experience scalping forex. You said that you would have made half trading the E/U, but is that trading the same size?


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## >Apocalypto< (10 November 2009)

Mr J said:


> No, I usually trade the 4hr or slower these days, and don't have much experience scalping forex. You said that you would have made half trading the E/U, but is that trading the same size?




yeh mate same size 100K lot. if I doubled up then it would compensate...


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## caribean (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> I agree with TH on this,
> 
> after spending months on the u/j and the cable, they just don't deliver in a consistent basis like the G/J does. It's personal preference guys, I am not sitting on a time frame above 1min so volatility matters to me. With out it I am dead in the water, also 4 hours a day is all I am interested in spending glued to a screen.
> 
> ...




I would be the first to say: There's no right way, only your way...
but, having made that statement, how could i say then:" i agree with TH", 
and: "i have got a new way to trade the E/U" ?
There may well be better contracts or instruments to trade out there, oil perhaps?? i don't know, nor do i pretend to know.
But at least i don't attack someone else's preferences as inadequate...
One of the pro traders (or was he a pro? you just don't know in this business do you?) i was talking to a couple of years back was also finding forex boring, compared to SIF's or just stocks...how does that quote go again?
"there's no right instrument, there's only your instrument".


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## >Apocalypto< (10 November 2009)

caribean said:


> I would be the first to say: There's no right way, only your way...
> but, having made that statement, how could i say then:" i agree with TH",
> and: "i have got a new way to trade the E/U" ?




What the hell are you on about? I simply said that TH made a point I agreed with, since when did you have to agree with it?

what??? I have a new idea for the euro that looks washed up and that was a comment I made to Mr J...

what's going on,... you smoking crack again?


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## caribean (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> What the hell are you on about? I simply said that TH made a point I agreed with, since when did you have to agree with it?
> 
> what??? I have a new idea for the euro that looks washed up and that was a comment I made to Mr J...
> 
> what's going on,... you smoking crack again?



Since i'm the one smoking crack, i must have got the point TH was making completly wrong, and you right.
I must have got the idea that TH was pointing out that Forex is an overleveraged, slow moving, black swan seating duck inducing, underfunded account traders, wrong.
But simply saying that somehow all of that has been overcome by trading the larger ranging (is it really, compared to GBP/USD?) GBP/JPY, is not.
"what do you mean you are a vegetarian???.....ohh it's ok, we're having lamb"
Don't mind me, i'm on crack.


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## Kremmen (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> That's why i limit my trading to a section of the day. I trade a 4 hour block.... trying to trade 24/7 leads to other problems.



Even then, it seems like a big time investment. Has anyone ever done a proper analysis of the different investment vehicles available and what their comparative return is like, while including the cost of the time and effort? I wonder if there is a value you can put on time to make them match, or whether one is intrinsically better than another?


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## >Apocalypto< (10 November 2009)

Kremmen said:


> Even then, it seems like a big time investment. Has anyone ever done a proper analysis of the different investment vehicles available and what their comparative return is like, while including the cost of the time and effort? I wonder if there is a value you can put on time to make them match, or whether one is intrinsically better than another?




if you can earn $200 - $500+ a day for 4 hours work I would say you had a good job, wouldn't you?

If you have that opinion, and it's fine mind you. I would say short term trading or scalping may not be for you Kremmen. 

after watching the aud since March I sometimes ask my self is it worth it! 

good investing to you!


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## >Apocalypto< (10 November 2009)

caribean said:


> Since i'm the one smoking crack, i must have got the point TH was making completly wrong, and you right.




I am still trying to work out what you're on about.



> I must have got the idea that TH was pointing out that Forex is an over leveraged, slow moving, black swan seating duck inducing, underfunded account traders, wrong.




over leveraged, yes it is. slow moving, not at all. new traders are under funded most the time. I learned this the hard way down CFD road.



> But simply saying that somehow all of that has been overcome by trading the larger ranging (is it really, compared to GBP/USD?) GBP/JPY, is not.




here's your issue, it's what i found worked, not you, ME. this has nothing to do with you. I agreed with TH on a few points not u. Why attack me? Hence my crack call.



> *"what do you mean you are a vegetarian???.....ohh it's ok, we're having lamb"*
> Don't mind me, i'm on crack.




LOL, again get off the crack

lol...... come on sharkie London is about to open, go make some pips instead of wasting time and energy on me.


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## Wysiwyg (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> if you can earn $200 - $500+ a day for 4 hours work I would say you had a good job, wouldn't you?




I would like to tap your thoughts on some things. Is there a cut off limit where X amount of profit or loss is the end of the session? 

The reason I ask is because these figures will occur at any stage in the 4 hour session. Seems like it would be a constant battle between the greed and fear demons.


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## caribean (10 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> I am still trying to work out what you're on about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL, you either will not work it out, or you have, but refuse to acknowledge it, don't worry about me making the pips


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## Mr J (11 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> yeh mate same size 100K lot. if I doubled up then it would compensate...




That's what I'm getting at. My view is that if we risk $1000, range will be considered and the risk amount in terms of pips, points, shares, cents, etc will all be adjusted to give _similar_ results. It may just be the way I look at it, as my methods don't require understanding behaviour unique to any specific market. TH on the other hand is far more focused and operates on a fast timeframe, so maybe he has a very different experience.



			
				Caribean said:
			
		

> I must have got the idea that TH was pointing out that Forex is an overleveraged, slow moving, black swan seating duck inducing, underfunded account traders, wrong.




That's the impression that I got as well. TH seems to be puts this on the market, but I'd put it on the trader.



			
				Kremmen said:
			
		

> Even then, it seems like a big time investment. Has anyone ever done a proper analysis of the different investment vehicles available and what their comparative return is like, while including the cost of the time and effort? I wonder if there is a value you can put on time to make them match, or whether one is intrinsically better than another?




Analysis of investment vehicles? What exactly are you looking to compare, as this doesn't seem to be a trading question, but a question for investment in products, cash, gold, property etc. Regarding trading, I don't think any market, timeframe, strategy etc is better than another - that comes down to the trader. For example, I've found that trading medium timeframes is just as profitable for me as trading faster timeframes, but others make far more on faster timeframes. Some won't do any better than buy and hold. I think it's a question you can only answer yourself based on your own experience.


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## caribean (11 November 2009)

That's the impression that I got as well. TH seems to be puts this on the market, but I'd put it on the trader.



Exactly, the instrument is the vehicle,  and we the driver, if we can only afford a VW Beetle, we better drive it to the best of our ability and its limitations.
TH is no doubt a very good trader, and probably a good person,but the way he attacked this market is not a clever thing to do, it displays an arrogance that an experienced person in anything, would find a constant battle to suppress, the sort of "guru" attitude of: trust me i know better than you, and will not even bother to explain why!!
Ok no more from me, over and out.
I'll go and sniff some crack


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## >Apocalypto< (12 November 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> I would like to tap your thoughts on some things. Is there a cut off limit where X amount of profit or loss is the end of the session?
> 
> The reason I ask is because these figures will occur at any stage in the 4 hour session. Seems like it would be a constant battle between the greed and fear demons.




No cut off for profits, only for losses. If I have two losses in a row I pack up for the day. I take every valid signal in the 4 hours. When you’re 3 up and you have a loss close but not on your stop that can really test your discipline to stick with the trade and not cut early...

Part of the game!


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## >Apocalypto< (12 November 2009)

Mr J said:


> That's what I'm getting at. My view is that if we risk $1000, range will be considered and the risk amount in terms of pips, points, shares, cents, etc will all be adjusted to give _similar_ results. It may just be the way I look at it, as my methods don't require understanding behavior unique to any specific market. TH on the other hand is far more focused and operates on a fast time frame, so maybe he has a very different experience.




If I double up on the euro sure I make the same but I pay double spread and com. Yes I know trading the GBP/JPY is about double the cost anyway but the E/$ does not run like the G/J. On many a time the G/J will push 3-8 pips more which allows me to reach profit target and exit. The euro will not run as hard and I will end up at loss or at break even.

I spent 1.5 months on the euro and found it did not give the same success rate as the cable. The cable does not give the same success rate as the G/J. U/J is a low ranger like the euro but tends to move when it signals it will, about half of what the G/J range gives out.

The E/$ is a much more liquid pair, hence it does not behave like the G/J which has a lot less liquidity in comparison. As a short term trader I need that extra push. 

They’re very different markets

It all depends on how you're approaching it I guess, for a 1 min trader I need volatile markets.


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## >Apocalypto< (12 November 2009)

caribean said:


> I'll go and sniff some crack




sniff? I thought you smoked it!


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## lasty (12 November 2009)

Forex trading - what are the negatives?

Your Losses :


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## Wysiwyg (12 November 2009)

lasty said:


> Forex trading - what are the negatives?
> 
> Your Losses :



Hahahahah that is hilarious man.


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## caribean (12 November 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> sniff? I thought you smoked it!



The crack you're referring to i know nothing about, on the other hand you appear to know it well....
that explains a lot, come to think of it.
Hey, I may only be here for a short time, it would not worry me at all, but the way you're going you may hurt your god status, what would you do then?
I don't think you realize how much ammo i have,
ohh, i suppose there's always FF left....easier there huh?
AdiÃ³s whipper snipper


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## >Apocalypto< (12 November 2009)

caribean said:


> The crack you're referring to i know nothing about, on the other hand you appear to know it well....
> that explains a lot, come to think of it.
> Hey, I may only be here for a short time, it would not worry me at all, but the way you're going you may hurt your god status, what would you do then?
> I don't think you realize how much ammo i have,
> ...




I have moved this to PM as mainly due to my own actions, this has gone way off topic.


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## Temjin (13 November 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> You are implying that because the FX markets are so big they are not easily "manipulated" correct?
> 
> But what does a manipulated market do thats so undesirable to a trader?




I'm sure you have heard of the high frequency and flash trading recently and I'm pretty sure you understand why it is "undesirable" to retail traders when Goldman Sachs and alike institutional traders are "forward" trading the orders BEFORE the general markets receive the information. It's a matter of stealing a tiny bit of profit from every trade but does so in a million times every day. 

Massive profit.

Fortunately, SEC decided to ban flash trading.

I was looking for a table that I saw back a little while ago. It illustrates the degree of "penetration", probably via volume based, of program trading in various stock/future exchanges. 

There are clear evidences that the US stock markets are being dominated by these high frequency program trading (not necessary manipulations, but potentially enough to move the market if desired), while the forex market is still fairly "clean" from program trading. (less than 10%) 

Obviously, the reasons why program tradings have not fully invaded the forex market just yet have already been listed out in this thread. No fixed market (which is a GOOD THING) and massive volume.


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## Miro (15 November 2009)

Do professional traders make decisions based on technical analysis or strategy trading?

By technical analysis I mean charting, with attention to fundamental events

Is strategy trading still in the game? Developing a strategy, back-testing, implementing a strategy, changing it etc.


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## Mr J (15 November 2009)

All traders have a strategy, so I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think technical analysis means charts, but just studying price, time, volume etc. This can be done on charts, the DOM, tape etc. Most traders seem to use technical analysis to an extent.


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## lasty (16 November 2009)

Miro said:


> Do professional traders make decisions based on technical analysis or strategy trading?
> 
> By technical analysis I mean charting, with attention to fundamental events
> 
> Is strategy trading still in the game? Developing a strategy, back-testing, implementing a strategy, changing it etc.




There are different levels of trading that professionals undertake.
It all has to do with time.
Example... Someone who is running a millisec algo isnt worried about fundamentals or charts.. It works on price action.
Many bank traders whose role is execution for clients focus on price action.

Then you have guys who look at the the day to day movements, these guys use mainly technicals with a small influence of fundamentals.

Then you have the Proprietory traders who may look at weekly,monthly or yearly positions who would focus on fundmentals with chart support.


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