# Silver manipulation - the largest financial fraud in history



## Miro (7 April 2010)

This is truly an amazing story ...

_On March 23, 2010, GATA Director Adrian Douglas was contacted by a whistleblower by the name of Andrew Maguire. Maguire is a metals trader in London. He has been told first-hand by traders working for JPMorganChase that JPMorganChase manipulates the precious metals markets, and they have bragged to how they make money doing so.

In November 2009 Maguire contacted the CFTC enforcement division to report this criminal activity. He described in detail the way JPMorgan Chase signals to the market its intention to take down the precious metals. Traders recognize these signals and make money shorting the metals alongside JPM. Maguire explained how there are routine market manipulations at the time of option expiry, non-farm payroll data releases, and COMEX contract rollover, as well as ad-hoc events.

On February 3 Maguire gave two days' warning by e-mail to Eliud Ramirez, a senior investigator for the CFTC's Enforcement Division, that the precious metals would be attacked upon the release of the non-farm payroll data on February 5. On February 5, as market events played out exactly as predicted, further e-mails were sent to Ramirez while the manipulation was in progress.

It would not be possible to predict such a market move unless the market was manipulated. _

... continue reading at http://www.gata.org/node/8466

More links below.

*Andrew Maguire finally exposes systemic fraud by CFTC & JPMorgan*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLxoeLqQMlw

*Bill Murphy of GATA Reveals Whistle-Blower in Gold Price Suppression*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bU0r6JP4s

*Andrew Maguire & Adrian Douglas interview* (March 30th)
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...10/3/30_Andrew_Maguire_&_Adrian_Douglass.html

*GATA interview - Bill Murphy, Chris Powell and Adrian Douglas* (March 31st)
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/3/31_GATA.html

*Manipulating Gold and Silver: A Criminal Naked Short Position that Could Wreck the Economy*
http://www.deepcapture.com/manipula...-short-position-that-could-wreck-the-economy/


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## explod (8 April 2010)

Yes , an interesting development.  Would appear that no one with any clout is going to do anything about things at this stage though.    It would shoot the value of the US dollar down, it being the flight to safety, could not have silver or gold take over that role.   Anyway most of this is explained in the links.

Posted links on this in gold and silver threads but is worth its own thread; so good one Miro.


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## Putty7 (8 April 2010)

explod said:


> Yes , an interesting development.  Would appear that no one with any clout is going to do anything about things at this stage though.    It would shoot the value of the US dollar down, it being the flight to safety, could not have silver or gold take over that role.   Anyway most of this is explained in the links.
> 
> Posted links on this in gold and silver threads but is worth its own thread; so good one Miro.




http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/metals.html

Posted this in another thread but seems appropriate here as well.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/32906678/looting_main_street/print

Another interesting thread on JPM and a good read if nothing else, probably a little off topic.


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## Boyou (8 April 2010)

Thanks for posting this,Miro...it seems to have escaped the notice of the Precious metal watchers and ,in fact, anyone who has interest in a Free Market

Not really "news" ,in the sense that many have been saying just this for years.Now we have an insider whistling the warning to us.Andrew Maguire has just opened the can..how many worms are there to crawl out??

A quote from another thread about trade with China.Smurf has it right in my opinion.

"Every example of a complex system failing (mostly engineering related but also financial) that I can think of involves a system that was pushed beyond its limits for a considerable period and then subjected to some sort of shock which triggered the actual failure.

The buffer that ought to have been built up when times were good wasn't there, it was consumed just to keep the game going. Then something happens that requires the buffer to be drawn down - and there's nothing to draw on, the cupboard's bare. Then you get a bad day / season / year and it spectacularly falls in heap.

When and due to what trigger is anyone's guess. But the system is clearly unsustainable in my opinion."

Relating this to Silver manipulation..perhaps it is just another symptom of the system breaking down?..through rorting of our so called free market.I take this very personally.I hold physical silver and look forward to a day when honest investment will be rewarded.....J P Morgan and their ilk are theives and PM  manipulation a symptom of a diseased world economy


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

Gents why don't you just all confess, not to us but for the sakes of your poor families and yourselves, for being in an instrument that has underperformed other things that you hate like bank shares and oil since your wet dream came true in 08 - yet the world didn't end. 

If there was really a market for bits of metal to put in a safe and look at from time to time the physical would be selling for higher than paper. But its not.


:


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## Boyou (8 April 2010)

T H..In this context you are a bottom feeder like the rest of us.

Why don't you look over the top of your screens and forget the PM versus Oil /bank interest crud? 

Andrew Maguire had his car rammed ,injuring he and his wife...others have been sent clear warnings...JP Morgan and other insiders are ruthless people.The S*** will hit the fan one day...Will you still be making money then?


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

Boyou said:


> The S*** will hit the fan one day...Will you still be making money then?




LOL By the time your dreams come true and the world descends into what you guys hope to happen, I'll be retired on my farm with my veggie patch and stories of making money trading nothing but virtual paper.

You guys will be left to try and trade your bars for milk and bread. Will you be able to make money if your dreams come true? I think not. Make it now while you are given the best of times.

Come on, join in, be a bull, buy some bank shares. :


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## explod (8 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Gents why don't you just all confess, not to us but for the sakes of your poor families and yourselves, for being in an instrument that has underperformed other things that you hate like bank shares and oil since your wet dream came true in 08 - yet the world didn't end.
> 
> If there was really a market for bits of metal to put in a safe and look at from time to time the physical would be selling for higher than paper. But its not.
> 
> ...




Every dog will have its day t/h.    Why do you bother.

But if you are interested, your take on Mcquire's testimony would be good.

Notice on another thread you speaking expertly on the Keynesian principles.   That philosophy to me is the biggest ponzie of all.  But before you go all red and try to squash people like flies on the window sill, I would invite you to look at the writings of the economist Von Misers and his writings of 1923 to 1946.   You will learn the true value of gold *as a store of wealth* also.    

Just think of Grandmas $1000 dollars in the bank since 1970, with interest it has probably doubled.   If she had had the same in gold stored away, today it would be worth $20,000

Anyway, well worth you checking Austrian Economics T/H and getting yourself educated so as to protect yourself from when the music stops and you are not able to find a chair.

cheers explod


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## Timmy (8 April 2010)

Boyou said:


> Thanks for posting this,Miro...it seems to have escaped the notice of the Precious metal watchers and ,in fact, anyone who has interest in a Free Market




Anyone with an interest in a Free Market (don't know why those words need to be capitalised, but there you go) doesn't go whingeing to the authorities when they get jammed by someone smarter than them.


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## Timmy (8 April 2010)

At least the losers have someone else to add to the list of "Who To Blame":
Short Sellers, Goldmans, The Fed, The Gov'n'ment (though they are good to whinge to), JPM ... more coming.


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## Boyou (8 April 2010)

Timmy said:


> Anyone with an interest in a Free Market (don't know why those words need to be capitalised, but there you go) doesn't go whingeing to the authorities when they get jammed by someone smarter than them.




Not a matter of being outsmarted,Timmy.

It comes down to being robbed ,by those in positions of privilege.I admire the smart ones,but detest the crooks.So should you..


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

explod said:


> Every dog will have its day t/h.    Why do you bother.
> 
> But if you are interested, your take on Mcquire's testimony would be good.
> 
> ...




What the Fark are you talking about??? "another thread you speaking expertly on the Keynesian principles". 

I'm not talking about using money to put in bank savings account. If that's your only alternative to gold you're truly lost.

And thanks I'm well aware of Von Measly. Thats why I'm a bull. Funny though the last person that told me that was buying gold and saying that shares & other usable commods where worthless back in early 09. How completely wrong they have been in timing. Strange how a miss applied doctrine can lead you sitting on the sidelines missing out on the fun.


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## Timmy (8 April 2010)

Boyou said:


> the crooks




Thank-you.  
Another for the list of "Who To Blame":
Short Sellers, Goldmans, The Fed, The Gov'n'ment (though they are good to whinge to), JPM, *Crooks *... & still more coming. 




Sorry, Boyou, nothing personal.

Since markets began the big boys take out stops, its what they do ... it wont change ... we can whinge about it or learn ...


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## explod (8 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> What the Fark are you talking about??? "another thread you speaking expertly on the Keynesian principles".
> 
> I'm not talking about using money to put in bank savings account. If that's your only alternative to gold you're truly lost.
> 
> And thanks I'm well aware of Von Measly. Thats why I'm a bull. Funny though the last person that told me that was buying gold and saying that shares & other usable commods where worthless back in early 09. How completely wrong they have been in timing. Strange how a miss applied doctrine can lead you sitting on the sidelines missing out on the fun.




One does not have all eggs in one basket.  I am not missing out on the market either.  Well invested in energy stocks and doing well, and also saw the GFC coming on the charts and was out when it really hit the fan, *but so what*.   But yes I keep some in savings ie. in physical prescious metals, and again "so what".  And also some in a shopping centre trust that is about to mature wherein my wife and I have seen the asset go from $1 per unit to $4 a unit over 10 years and pay us 10% along the way.  "So what" 

Why are you so against some of us on ASF being diversified in things that you may consider wrong.   If you do not like it just ignore our threads, as I have learnt to do to yours.

Within reasonalbe limits, we are all entitlted to our varying takes.

cheers explod


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## satanoperca (8 April 2010)

Where has all the gold gone. Someone must have it.



> The Latest Gold Fraud Bombshell: Canada's Only Bullion Bank Gold Vault Is Practically Empty




http://www.zerohedge.com/article/latest-gold-fraud-bombshell-canadas-only-bullion-bank-gold-vault-practically-empty

Cheers


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

explod said:


> Why are you so against some of us on ASF being diversified in things that you may consider wrong.   If you do not like it just ignore our threads, as I have learnt to do to yours.




explod most of us are grown up enough to admit that,



Timmy said:


> Since markets began the big boys take out stops, its what they do ... it wont change ... we can whinge about it or learn ...



 Some just think its unfair & robbery when what they buy doesn't go up 200% in 1 year. I find that entertaining. :

By the way please point out where I was talking "expertly on the Keynesian principles". Or is this yet again another one of your made up "facts" that you litter this place with?


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## explod (8 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ageo (8 April 2010)

TH is not interested in economics but purely just to make cash. Thats great, make millions and perhaps billions even from a shonky system but then what? make more money? but then what? make more again? what about the millions of people that are not as savvy as you are TH? is paying $10 for milk in 10yrs your kinda future for your kids? or you wont have any kids so you dont care??

Im not saying you need to care about the ****ty system we run off, and i know your only interested in making cash but just expand your mind a tad and look at the bigger picture.


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## Agentm (8 April 2010)

explod said:


> Every dog will have its day t/h.    Why do you bother.
> 
> But if you are interested, your take on Mcquire's testimony would be good.
> 
> ...




lol

and when grandma wants to actually check and see if the gold is actually held in a vault as promised.. she finds its not there as globally the vaults are empty

if ever there was a run on gold and silver, then say goodnight to your investment..  unless you physically have it in hand you have got jack...


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

Ageo said:


> TH is not interested in economics but purely just to make cash.



Not true. In fact probably the opposite. I spend every day from 7am till midnight thinking about it.



Ageo said:


> what about the millions of people that are not as savvy as you are TH? is paying $10 for milk in 10yrs your kinda future for your kids?




EXACTLY. Thats why the shorters/speculators are doing a great service to today's wage earner and future generations. In any product stocks, futs & PM. Shorters limit price, maybe, or make sure something stays closer to real value. *What the gold bugs are wanting is financial armageddon just for their own benefit*. You cannot dispute it. Fark the rest. They want the system to collapse? *Then what? *

Don't give me the righteous BS. If gold goes to $5000 people will starve. Then what??

I don't like the system of funny money spent today just to keep the pollies looking good for the next poll but I don't want to see the major currencies becoming worthless and all that will follow. 



Ageo said:


> Im not saying you need to care about the ****ty system we run off, and i know your only interested in making cash but just expand your mind a tad and look at the bigger picture.




LOL. Gold bugs have the monopoly on big thinking do they?


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## explod (8 April 2010)

Agentm said:


> lol
> if ever there was a run on gold and silver, then say goodnight to your investment..  unless you physically have it in hand you have got jack...




Well I was referring to having it in your own vault or safety box.   Most who are into having gold as a hedge have been aware of that for many years now.


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## Smurf1976 (8 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> *What the gold bugs are wanting is financial armageddon just for their own benefit*. You cannot dispute it. Fark the rest. They want the system to collapse? *Then what? *
> 
> Don't give me the righteous BS. If gold goes to $5000 people will starve. Then what??



I own rather a lot of energy company shares because I _expect_, based on my own analysis of energy industry fundamentals, that investment to make me a profit.

That doesn't mean I _want_ petrol to cost $2 or $3 a litre and I know plenty of people who will be hit very hard if that happens. But I am not in a position to control the price of oil, I am simply choosing to invest according to something I expect to happen but have no control over.

Same with gold. If I expect the price to double in the near future then I'll buy gold. That doesn't mean I want to see some sort of armageddon, it simply means I expect something to occur and choose to invest accordingly.

Nobody buys something they expect to go down in value, at least not unless it's paying a pretty decent dividend to offset the capital loss or has some other non-capital benefit associated with it (eg people with political views who buy shares so they can attend shareholders' meetings etc).


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## Trembling Hand (8 April 2010)

Nah Smurf the bugs are different. Their metals are up near the highs yet they aren't happy. 

They are screaming manipulation and telling everyone who will listen that its just not fair. And crooks are robbing them.

They want gold at $3000 and everything else worthless.


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## Ageo (9 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not true. In fact probably the opposite. I spend every day from 7am till midnight thinking about it.
> You need to go on holidays
> 
> 
> ...




Never said that, but it seems whenever you talk its always about making cash and never about the long term future of our financial system. But i sense you do that to piss off the gold bugs and other world collapse believers.....??

P.S in the end thow i agree with you, learn the system today and rape it


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## Miro (9 April 2010)

Ageo said:


> the long term future of our financial system.




Here is a good article on gold (and silver) as money by Dominic Frisby for those who're interested.

*Why Gold Is The Currency Of The Idle And Free*
http://dominicfrisby.net/writing/why-gold-is-the-currency-of-the-idle-and-free

Some of the statements about wars are a bit off base but it's a really good one. There's an audio version as well.

(hey I'm glad this thread is online. I posted it 2 days ago at night and someone removed it a few minutes later. I had to email the admin to get it back online. It smelled like a conspiracy, haha.)


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## explod (9 April 2010)

Miro said:


> Here is a good article on gold (and silver) as money by Dominic Frisby for those who're interested.
> 
> *Why Gold Is The Currency Of The Idle And Free*
> http://dominicfrisby.net/writing/why-gold-is-the-currency-of-the-idle-and-free
> ...




Thanks for putting up the link to that article.  Some may say it is off topic but in fact the prescious metals, particularly silver is very much in the mix of tangible value and in the past part of value currencies.

There are of course plenty of good articles on gold and prescious metals and have recommended them many times in the past but some are so set in thier outlook will not even give the study of it another thought.

And T/H I do not want to see gold at 5000 and people starve, you obviously do not take in much of what I have posted overall the last four years or so.  I would much prefer that governments and people did not live off debt beyond thier means and that all people had a job and that inflation did not eat away at savings.   The rising price of P/Ms merely reflects those problems.   An objective read of the article on the link put up by Miro will help those interested to realise those fundamentals.


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## Trembling Hand (9 April 2010)

Eplod you still haven't recognised my point. And I guess you're happier blaming manipulation instead and never will. That under the type of inflation we have seen up till now OTHER things will be a better bet against cash corrosion due to inflation.

I've said that for nearly 2 years. That's why I don't buy the bugs tears. *They just have it wrong. They are in the wrong instrument.*

Stop sooking about the conspiracy and swap over to the better stuff if you wanna play inflation.



TALK TO THAT.


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## Bushman (9 April 2010)

Whole continents (South America, Africa) were pillaged to allow the Colonialists to get their hands on the gold to fund their religious wars. 

Gold is not some benevolent force of good in the world. If it was the dominant currency then it too would be manipulated to allow for the excesses of humanity.


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## Trembling Hand (10 April 2010)

Bushman said:


> Whole continents (South America, Africa) were pillaged to allow the Colonialists to get their hands on the gold to fund their religious wars.




You gotta love the Gold Bugs double standards Bushman. This quote is from the link Miro posted,

*Red bits blatant lies*. But the gold bugs swallow it without the slightest amount of thought.


> Since that fateful day in 1971 when Nixon unpegged the US Dollar from gold, debt has grown exponentially and there has been nothing to stop it. We have seen the formation of the greatest credit bubble in history. It has brought with it greatest rape of the earth, the longest-working hours, the greatest slavery, the worst working conditions, the highest divorce rates, the highest crime rates, the most wars, the greatest frauds, the most malevolent greed and dozens of other beastly anti-idler practices. We have just lived through the greatest credit bubble in history – greater than the South Sea Bubble, than the Dutch tulip bubble,  and are about to face the consequences. There is a finite amount of gold in the world. With gold as money such expansion would never have been possible because there would not have been the gold to pay for it. But with modern money that can be endlessly issued, there was no such restriction.




They are just full of BS at best, probably for them dangerously under equipped to draw their own conclusion from logic. In the very same paragraph (blue bits) they tell us of the bubbles that occurred under the gold standard and then claim that "gold as money such expansion would never have been possible".

Bugs stop sending me PMs about Weimer Republic & Von Measley. I've read it all and not just recently, for more than a decade. And like my post above, I will repeat, under the current conditions I don't buy the bugs tears of manipulation. They just have it wrong.

Someone please talk to that without a link to some comedian and voice over artist as an authority or a blogger named after a modern day anarchist who makes money out of selling Google AdSense links.


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## nulla nulla (10 April 2010)

I thought this thread might have something to do with the attempt in the late 1970's early 1980's by two Businessmen to corner the world market on Silver, which saw the price of the Aud 1966 50c coin go through the roof.

The 1966 silver 50 cent coin was issued for circulation in great quantities (over 36 million were struck). In late 1966, rising silver prices caused the Canberra Mint to stop production of the coin. 

The fifty cent was intended as a prestige coin to mark the inception of decimal currency. For this reason, it was struck in a richer silver than had been used in the previous 20 years. Despite Treasury warnings that it was unlikely that the .80 silver composition could be maintained in the face of rising world silver prices, and fears that the coin would fade out of circulation simply because the public would not use it, the Federal Treasurer, Harold Holt, and the Cabinet insisted that its issue proceed.

In less than 12 months, it was clear that both circumstances had occurred. Hoarding the coin became a national pastime. The public were extremely reluctant to part with any which came into their possession. The 1966-67 report of the Royal Australian Mint makes comment on this and also disclosed that the coin had proved difficult to strike.

On 20 March, 1968, the Federal Treasurer, William McMahon, advised Parliament that the silver content of the coin had reached 76c and that it was being progressively withdrawn from circulation.

*At the peak of the silver boom in 1980 when silver reached over $50 per ounce, the bullion value of the coin exceeded $15.* The subsequent collapse in the price of silver has led to some confusion as the current bullion value (and actual value for examples in less than uncirculated condition) has fallen to around $2.


Now *that* was manipulation.


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

It appears they say they have been double shorting this market 100:1 both ways (long and short positions) vs physical.




And it is worse than that. Evidence that one Bank inventory is depleted big time.  NO wonder they can't deliver physical.  I also feel sorry for the people paying monthly storage fees on "non-existing" Silver and Gold.   

*Harvey & Lenny Organ & Adrian Douglas: Drop Another Bombshell In What Could End Up Being The Largest Fraud In History -*

_This time a large international bank with almost 15 million customers in 50 countries around the world becomes part of this unfolding saga_

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...2010/4/7_Andrew_Maguire_&_Adrian_Douglas.html


Call for delivery now, or be happy with worthless paper.  You choose


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah Smurf the bugs are different. Their metals are up near the highs yet they aren't happy.
> 
> They are screaming manipulation and telling everyone who will listen that its just not fair. And crooks are robbing them.
> 
> They want gold at $3000 and everything else worthless.




Actually, Since the money supply is over $25 Trillion USD?  I would not be surprised to see Gold at $25,000 per ounce if it was inflation adjusted today.

The crises is not over, sovereign debt is defaulting all over the world. First Dubai and Greece is next. More to come. 

Also, Gold and Silver is the Elites money.  You know those guys that own all the illegal monopoly corporations, the money system and run the governments around the world? 

.


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## Trembling Hand (10 April 2010)

Yeah $25,000 hey? Well you maybe right _one day_. Just no way in the world I'm going to wait for that as a way to make money. And miss out on playing the same theme as you think but getting the *application right*. As I've said bugs have it wrong. 

PM aint where the party is.


By the way Greece has not defaulted. And you may want to check on the link between countries defaulting and your wet dreams coming true. They have always defaulted. In fact there has been less defaults in recent years than the average. You think thats going to get gold at $25,000? especially against the Skippy?


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> By the way Greece has not defaulted. And you may want to check on the link between countries defaulting and your wet dreams coming true. They have always defaulted. In fact there has been less defaults in recent years than the average. You think thats going to get gold at $25,000? especially against the Skippy?




I said "and Greece is next"

And I said "if Gold is to be inflation adjusted" It can go to $25,000.00 per ounce if gold is to match money supply of $24 Trillion.  

Gold correcting to match the money supply has happened before many times though out history.  It happens when empires fall.  This time the whole world is the Empire that will fall.  

Why did Empires fall?  They had gone off the gold standard, then increased the money supply.  Then after many wars and more QE, they fall flat broke.  Why does that happen?  Because government loves power and control.    Fiat money is debt and is our modern money mechanics.   To have a dollar means it has debt.  That debt is sold to investors and other governments in a form of a treasury bill.  You can't have one without the other. 

Gold and silver has no debt.  It is real wealth.      Has been money for over 6000 years.

Debt is control, Gold and Silver is freedom.


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## >Apocalypto< (10 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> I said "and Greece is next"




Greece is about to get a bailout......



> *
> Why did Empires fall*?  *They had gone off the gold standard*, then increased the money supply. Gold and silver has no debt.  It is real wealth.    Has been money for *over 6000 years.*




Remember those pills your psych gave you? I think it's about time you start taking them again. 



> Gold and Silver is freedom




Lets see you try to pay for your shopping at coles with some sovereigns Muppet. 

The Myth of the Gold Standard

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north177.html


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## explod (10 April 2010)

> >Apocalypto
> 
> Remember those pills your psych gave you? I think it's about time you start taking them again.
> <




So you reckon it can not happen this time;   and looks like you do not know about the other times so maybe too dangerous for you to make diagnosis.



> Lets see you try to pay for your shopping at coles with some sovereigns Muppet.
> 
> The Myth of the Gold Standard




We will see about the myth in due course.   When it all went pear shaped in Argentina there was no money to do the shopping, nor stock on the shelves anyway and it took a barrow load to buy a pie in the Wiemer Republic.   You think history is a fairy tale maybe.

And as for Greece the debt in California, with many other states in the US in worse shape.  But of course the rating agency who first isolated Greece for attention is a US firm.


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> The Myth of the Gold Standard
> 
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north177.html







I don't think you miss understood that article Apocalypto.  It backs up what I said.  And also contradicted the actual facts.  nice work.


wow Gary north talks about ZIONISM.  I wonder mmmmm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html

Yea those people that control the world mmmmmm


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## >Apocalypto< (10 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> I don't think you miss understood that article Apocalypto.  It backs up what I said.  And also contradicted the actual facts.  nice work.
> 
> 
> wow Gary north talks about ZIONISM.  I wonder mmmmm
> ...




I didn't read that article nor do i really care. all of you Muppet's that cry conspiracy, It's a laugh. 

I just like to tip in when TH rubs it in to you all. Sure keep believing the world is coming to an end, I never read reports or give a damn, I just trade as I do this to make money, not to be some wanna-be barbecue economist! 

cheers,


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> I didn't read that article nor do i really care. all of you Muppet's that cry conspiracy, It's a laugh.
> 
> I just like to tip in when TH rubs it in to you all. Sure keep believing the world is coming to an end, I never read reports or give a damn, I just trade as I do this to make money, not to be some wanna-be barbecue economist!
> 
> cheers,




Cool,  trade and make money.   Trolling is off topic


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## >Apocalypto< (10 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> Cool,  trade and make money.   *Trolling* is off topic




Public forum; means I am able to comment in a thread with my opinion if I decide to.

Back to your bomb shelter EM to polish your bars.


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## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> *Your the biggest MUPPET on this forum Explod.*
> 
> It's now 2010 explod, Has the world ended?
> 
> No offense but I hardly take the time to read your replies, same ol dribble over and over again.




Have you seen the price of fuel going up in price yet?   Keep an eye open for it.    It will keep going up slowly.

Notice the price of Silver and gold going up in price even if the USD index is going up in price?   Same goes for the AUD.  AUD/USD is up but so is Silver and Gold priced in AUD.

Notice the RBA interest rates are going up month by month.  Starting to see reports on the news of mortgage stress for first time home buyers who where suckered in buying a house last year?  Yes the housing market is already in a bubble.  And now international investors can buy real estate as well? without needing to be Australian citizen nor live in Australia?

Did you know that goldman sachs actually is supporting all share markets around the world?

You can't see anything wrong here?

recovery eh? lol


----------



## >Apocalypto< (10 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> Have you seen the price of fuel going up in price yet?   Keep an eye open for it.    It will keep going up slowly.
> 
> Notice the price of Silver and gold going up in price even if the USD index is going up in price?   Same goes for the AUD.  AUD/USD is up but so is Silver and Gold priced in AUD.
> 
> ...




 ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz you sound just like implod.


----------



## marcus64 (10 April 2010)

hello everyone ive just joined this forum. ive often had a browse through threads but never realy cared to join.because i have been trading for about 20 years,and quite frankly there is nothing to chat about i make money lose money.i research and then trade no more to be said . but the reason iam posting this is because what just went down on capital hill is possibly the biggest event ecconomicaly speaking the world has seen since we all became keynsians.this is just the first domino pushed over.look it dosn't matter what you trade you would like to think the rules of the market is fair.idont know weather anybody realises here or not but since the hunt brothers tried to corner the market there has been limmits on long positions but not shorts.now the hunts tried to force the price up for sure. but this happens in every market.you can go into safeway by all there pepsi 40 cents a can and sell it in your store for what ever. agreed? that is afree market.now i am not particulary a gold bug or anything for that matter.but i know a scam when i see one.there has been a total mainstreet media blackout on this story.that is a shame.the only thing you will find mainstream regarding the capital hill hearing was comments like we dont want anymore regulations regarding preciouse metals .wtf.get rid of the long regs.putting short limmits in place is not the only answer.these statements are what we call suggestive reasoning.in australia i was appauled to find nothing, not a thing in the media.  in a resource rich country such as this, the biggest producer of gold in the world. and the third biggest producer of silver in the world. any australian who is not interested in resources hitting their full potential is either ignorent or has another agender which is not for the benefit of this country .there is only 20 million of us. you do the maths. i can smell a trade of a lifetime comming on get on it or miss out.up to you, if not, just listen and learn all you can and be prepaired to change your mind when evidence contrary to your beliefs comes to light.i will say this before signing off usualy gold bugs usually are nice people trying to politely put there message across. a bit jehovas witnesses. and then there is always bully bastard . trying to put them down. just an observation.


----------



## Boyou (10 April 2010)

I am not an apologist for ASF,marcus64,but I see you are a new poster.Most of the posts and posters on ASF are fair and reasonable people.

Most of them don't need to descend to abusive language or put downs to get their points across

Trembling Hand and Apocalypto are  atypical members ..I am pleased to say.

If they persist in this type of abuse,there is a man who can give these naughty boys the slap they so richly deserve 

Enjoy the friendly forums!


----------



## >Apocalypto< (10 April 2010)

well said boys,

I enjoyed both your posts...... I am one to read and enjoy decent information, but not one for reading repetitive dribble about why the world is over and why the markets are controlled... who cares, just get out there analyze it and do your best to make a buck!

UF & *Implod*, year after year carry on with dribble! this is why i come across the way I do to them.

Look at the title of this thread, CRAP.... how cares if it is, find a way to profit off it! Try trading FX the biggest OTC market (&market) in the world, is it manipulated, yes it is. Central banks come in and restore value to their idea all the time. do I care? NO.... I run with it......... boo hoo  boo hoo Man up pussies!

Sorry to hurt any feelings I will leave you all to your ramblings............


----------



## electronicmaster (10 April 2010)

Ok, people are starting to speak up about the COMEX delivery of PM's.  I hope more will speak up.  




---------- ORIGINAL MSG FROM SEALHUNTER -------------
July 2008 purchased december silver 12.45 after september the price was falling i was in for 5,000.00 at that time in november i had to come up with the difference to stay in it was 2,700.00 t at this time i knew this all manipulation due to the high number of longs for december and the price of silver kept falling,

December 22 I called the broker and told him Im taking delivery he said we need a bank wire for the remainder of the contract I wired the money the same day .

Called back the next day they received the money and he at alleron traders told me I need to send 250.00 for shipping and insurance .

January 6 a tuesday I called the trader at Alleron told me it will take two weeks for delivery, What about a tracking number ,No they will contact you when the are ready to ship


A couple of weeks go by and then I receive a so called certificate from the comex !
I wish i saved this piece of paper because what got me angry was that in small print it said ( this does not guarantee silver to holder)

I called the trader again he tried to convince me that they can correct the dispute by cashing me out NO WAY I PAID FOR SILVER!

The stall was over the next few weeks with numerous calls then I received a call saying that they need shipping fees WHAT I have paid these fees ! It wasn't the fees for shipping it was then difference for in weight (amount of silver ) I paid for 1000 oz they need the 35 oz difference .

The story kept changing then late march I received conformation that the silver was shipped by the so called comex shippers.

In early part of april 2009 I received the silver bar 1035 oz penoles bar!

At that point I knew the COMEX is a sham they have nothing!


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (10 April 2010)

marcus64 said:


> hello everyone ive just joined this forum. ive often had a browse through threads but never realy cared to join.because i have been trading for about 20 years,and quite frankly there is nothing to chat about i make money lose money.i research and then trade no more to be said . but the reason iam posting this is because what just went down on capital hill is possibly the biggest event ecconomicaly speaking the world has seen since we all became keynsians.this is just the first domino pushed over.look it dosn't matter what you trade you would like to think the rules of the market is fair.idont know weather anybody realises here or not but since the hunt brothers tried to corner the market there has been limmits on long positions but not shorts.now the hunts tried to force the price up for sure. but this happens in every market.you can go into safeway by all there pepsi 40 cents a can and sell it in your store for what ever. agreed? that is afree market.now i am not particulary a gold bug or anything for that matter.but i know a scam when i see one.there has been a total mainstreet media blackout on this story.that is a shame.the only thing you will find mainstream regarding the capital hill hearing was comments like we dont want anymore regulations regarding preciouse metals .wtf.get rid of the long regs.putting short limmits in place is not the only answer.these statements are what we call suggestive reasoning.in australia i was appauled to find nothing, not a thing in the media.  in a resource rich country such as this, the biggest producer of gold in the world. and the third biggest producer of silver in the world. any australian who is not interested in resources hitting their full potential is either ignorent or has another agender which is not for the benefit of this country .there is only 20 million of us. you do the maths. i can smell a trade of a lifetime comming on get on it or miss out.up to you, if not, just listen and learn all you can and be prepaired to change your mind when evidence contrary to your beliefs comes to light.i will say this before signing off usualy gold bugs usually are nice people trying to politely put there message across. a bit jehovas witnesses. and then there is always bully bastard . trying to put them down. just an observation.




http://www.ncistudent.net/studyskills/writingskills/WritingParagraphs.htm


----------



## Miro (11 April 2010)

Can you guys, the more experienced ones (in finance, markets), draw a few scenarios of how the situation could escalate and what the impact could be?

The news must have spread out all over the world by now. I might be naive but I can't imagine people in finance and central banks / governments wouldn't know about the CFTC hearing and follow up stories. Maybe it's just me, but pretty much every non-mainstream financial podcast or blog I subscribe to talks about it. It's all over the internet.


----------



## Miro (11 April 2010)

marcus64 said:


> i can smell a trade of a lifetime comming on get on it or miss out.up to you, if not, just listen and learn all you can and be prepaired to change your mind when evidence contrary to your beliefs comes to light.i will say this before signing off usualy gold bugs usually are nice people trying to politely put there message across. a bit jehovas witnesses. and then there is always bully bastard . trying to put them down. just an observation.




Are you saying that you think the price of silver is just going to shoot up to the stars? I'd be interested to know how exactly you think it's gonna play out, considering your experience.


----------



## skyQuake (11 April 2010)

The more people talk about the oncomiing short squeeze the more likely the opposite is gonna happen... The trades of the decade come about when people are NOT positioned for it. Not when everyone is already on board and there are thousands of posters online extolling the virtues of the upcoming trade...


----------



## Miro (11 April 2010)

_There are now reports that Lenny Organ, the son of Harvey Organ (who recently testified at the CFTC gold and silver position limit hearings), was able to enter the vault of ScotiaMocatta (Canada's only bullion bank vault) and see that shockingly, it contained roughly 60,000 ounces of silver and gold that he estimated as being worth approximately $100 million. Considering that the Royal Mint of Canada sold over $1 billion worth of gold in 2008 alone and many purchasers choose the convenience of vault storage and a paper certificate over physical delivery, the amount of gold stored in the vault appeared by Lenny to be exceptionally low._

The source is http://inflation.us/canadavaultempty.html ... I wouldn't give it much credit but there's an interesting interview with Bob Chapman who in 80's used to be one of the biggest gold and silver stockbrokers. He publishes The International Forecaster.


----------



## Naked shorts (11 April 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Back to your bomb shelter EM to polish your bars.




LOL!
this thread just keeps on giving


----------



## marcus64 (11 April 2010)

yes miro iam saying there is a great chance to make a lot of money from silver.the scam is  leveraged 100 to 1.the problem with keeping up this scam is that not only is silver a pm it is used predominantly in industrial applications.dyo research on this, the figures are mind boggling. and there is to much information to cover in this forum.unlike gold this scam can not go on for ever no matter how clever the perps are.you ask for a few scenarios. the obviouse is default, when people ask for there goods to be delivered silver then explodes due to supply and demand principles, then add to that pannick buying from people whose companies can not survive without silver.but in saying that the perps are not fools there next move is known only by those in the loop.one more take down is not out of the question.but if they do this that would be their last. either way silver goes up.so the play is buy a small parcell of shares in a small cap who will start producing near term.possibly a company that has bought a mine that could not survive when silver was $5 an ounce.i have one in mind. $500 could easily turn into $5000 verry quickly.meddium cap play would be  a company who makes a lot of money out of copper but whose silver production is up there with the biggest producers in the world,they just see it as a sideline.then the big one no guessing here bhp.how much silver do they have  dyor (alot).i am not a licenced adviser.the reason i posted my first blog was because every investor should be concerned about the recent events that have occured. and apply this to there stradegy.to sam im sorry my grammer has frustrated you but i left school over 30 years ago,when i first started trading it involved lots of phone calls.i am verry thankfull for the new age but typing takes me along time and my mind races ahead of my fingers.if your suggesting that going back to school is going to change that, i find that verry amusing. how will it effect my trading? maybe i should give all my money back i dont deserve it lol.if you genuinly cant understand me i am sorry.if you are just jokeing maybe your in the wrong game. and if you are seriouse, how many languages can you let yourself be understood in? i can count in at least 10 i should have spent more time on chinese though, if iam going to learn anymore in the language area that would be the go. thankyou.


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> Have you seen the price of fuel going up in price yet?   Keep an eye open for it.    It will keep going up slowly.



Yep like I keep saying. And gold/silver In AUD is under performing. Seen share prices going up recently. Under performing PM? thats the story but you guys will not admit it.



Boyou said:


> I am not an apologist for ASF,marcus64,but I see you are a new poster.Most of the posts and posters on ASF are fair and reasonable people.
> 
> Trembling Hand and Apocalypto are  atypical members ..I am pleased to say.
> 
> ...



Bayou exactly what are you talking about from me? I have continually pointed out what I believe is falsely presented as fact by the Bugs and they never come back and present any back up to what I believe is just lies.
 You guys just don't like my message. ut haven't presented any counters to my points.


marcus64 said:


> yes miro iam saying there is a great chance to make a lot of money from silver.the scam is  leveraged 100 to 1.




here's a typical load of BS. Exactly where is silver 100 : 1??

Lies and more lies. 

You guys lose all credibility as soon as you open your mouths. How can you expect to be take seriously with lies?


----------



## explod (11 April 2010)

> Trembling Hand
> 
> Yep like I keep saying. And gold/silver In AUD is under performing. Seen share prices going up recently. Under performing PM? thats the story but you guys will not admit it.




Correct t/h, so what?    and the longer term return as we stand today is poor.  My silver is only up a little more than 30% but it is safe.   The interest in prescious metals is that of an icon, due to its past history it attracts huge sentiment and in many countries, India and increasingly  S E Asia wether you like the idea or not, people carry it, smuggle it, trade it and swap it for needs, in some places on a daily basis.

It is and has always been like the canary in the mine, a warning that things may be amiss.   It rose from the low in 2001 from US$260 an ounce to the current price of 1160 today.  Though skippy S@G is down the overall look is similar.  Interesting that the high of 1000 coincided with the GFC, gold went down too, but as a signifier it was in the ruck.

Perhaps in some ways the discussions on the merits of precious metals ought to be more in the "general discussion" threads.   The "Gold Price Direction" thread perhaps an exception.   Gold and silver to my mind are more about a percentage of a portofolio's long term investment strategy, part of the spread/mix and insurance against currency devaluation.   My bullion forms about 25% of my SMSF, the percentage was higher than that but recent gains in stocks changed that.

To say that us Bugs are obsessed with silver and gold to the point of being blind is wrong.   There is a lot of financial institutional distaste for gold bugs as the system cannot pick up fees etc., except for storage.

Because you do not seem to be able to entertain any arguments at all for gold T/H, one can only assume that you are a part of the financial industry in some way that detests it on economic grounds.   



> here's a typical load of BS. Exactly where is silver 100 : 1??
> 
> Lies and more lies.




Absolutely agree, and does a lot of harm to the rational debate on the subject.   There is however a proper place for everything and an earnest discussion of precious metals is important on ASF, IMHO.


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 April 2010)

explod said:


> Correct t/h, so what?    and the longer term return as we stand today is poor.  My silver is only up a little more than 30% but it is safe.   The interest in prescious metals is that of an icon, due to its past history it attracts huge sentiment and in many countries, India and increasingly  S E Asia wether you like the idea or not, people carry it, smuggle it, trade it and swap it for needs, in some places on a daily basis.



 Yes Explod. But it you guys that are claiming that this is "the largest financial fraud in history"

I'm simply saying it aint. If you guys wanna play the cash dollar devaluing there are better ways to profit from it. Thats why, imo, PMs have not been the great break out trade recently, oil, equities & risk currencies will/have been. 

And as much as you dudes think Global Macro will flood into PMs I just don't see it. Interestingly for all the reasons that you bugs think that they will.

And I could go on about the reasons why that is so but whenever you discuss this topic with bugs you cannot get to a decent discussion point because so much energy is wasting in dealing with BS.


----------



## marcus64 (11 April 2010)

iGATAseemsstunned by the admissions of Jeff Christian at the CFTC hearing,whereJeff admitted that the leverage of paper gold to physical gold isover 100 to 1 in the London Market.  Listen as theyexplain:

 i was not allowed to post a link to this site but if you want to know more go to kingworld news and watch the broadcasts on the hearings. other than that im not interested in argueing with someone who obviously is trying to be noticed by someone. as for me.i am not a gold or silverbug and if i came across as an expert in these commodities i have been misunderstood.i am a unapologetical  profit seeking opertunist. i can smell a trade thats all. this battle against gold and pm's has obviously raged on for a while on this site.and it has splintered off into name calling and ego fueled banter.let the gold bugs have thier day.they are not all fools.at what point do you say jeez you might have something there.if they are 50% right we are in trouble or there's a chance to make money.


----------



## explod (11 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes Explod. But it you guys that are claiming that this is "the largest financial fraud in history"
> 
> I'm simply saying it aint. If you guys wanna play the cash dollar devaluing there are better ways to profit from it. Thats why, imo, PMs have not been the great break out trade recently, oil, equities & risk currencies will/have been.
> 
> ...




That is not accurate.  Some links have been put up sure, and some on the conspiracy thread at that.  The ASF bugs do not profess to be gurus in any shape but do draw attention to news on the subject, some of which is very radical and who knows, all worth considering in such an interesting subject in my view.  The total shape of ASF is the overall consensus.   I have said myself that spruikers such as Hommell and JS Sinclair are a bit off the edge but do raise angles worth looking at.  In fact Dan Norcini, a trader in the pits, via JS Minset is well worth following IMO.

In the total equation of the overall world financial sum, the precious metals account for less than about a third of 1%.  Now that is a small corner.  However in saying that, only a very minute amount of new attention to it could potentially move it a great deal.  But again just a hypothetical that perhaps ought to be in a discussion thread as suggested above.  

The grunt is where the market is moving, no problem;  but it is interesting for some, and the precious metals is only one topic, to explore possibilities.


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 April 2010)

Marcus it would be nice to hear more from you but PLEASE can you respect us enough to talk to us in a readable format. With capitals, spaces and paragraphs. Its got nothing to do with anything other than readability and due respect to those that you are trying to communicate with.

On the leverage the PM futs are required to have 7% margin for directional trades and a bit less if you are a member of the exchanges. I will tomorrow follow the link you provided and reply but if you have done any trading on margin you would know that a position of strength is not one thats leverage to minimum margin. Certainly you cannot maintain  a large postion @ 100:1. You seriously cannot reconcile that with trading logic, but more tomorrow.



marcus64 said:


> Let the gold bugs have their day. They are not all fools. At what point do you say jeez you might have something there. If they are 50% right we are in trouble or there's a chance to make money.




And again I will say it. I'm not against the bugs ideas. I don't thing gold going down. In fact I would have to say I'm a bull. But I just think if golds going up so is Oil, equities and risk currencies. And going up more than PM. As I've said in this environment.


----------



## electronicmaster (11 April 2010)

I agree, Silver and Gold has underperformed, and yes we had made more money in other investments or trades.  But I'm not investing in gold and silver just for performance. But they are in a bullish cycle for the next two years or more.

The investment is manly a hedge for disaster.   I have made a bigger return on the junior mines.  And the goal of owning the right junior mines is to gamble on "if" the major miners will buy the juniors you have invested in.   

The *Silver manipulation* subject is about the OTC trading rules for Silver.  And about the massive short position JP Morgan has in the Market after taking over a massive short position from Bear Sterns.

They are just trying to fix those rules, that's all.  

I do find it strange that the people at the CFTC hearing is talking about 100:1 hedges, possibly a double short position too.


----------



## electronicmaster (11 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Gents why don't you just all confess, not to us but for the sakes of your poor families and yourselves, for being in an instrument that has underperformed other things that you hate like bank shares and oil since your wet dream came true in 08 - yet the world didn't end.
> 
> If there was really a market for bits of metal to put in a safe and look at from time to time the physical would be selling for higher than paper. But its not.
> 
> ...




It depends.  Not a right or wrong point here.   I have a money flow system,  and investing in Silver and Gold is a part of that system. 

You have income, expenses and investments (that also give you income).  
Gold and Silver is the last resort if you have money left to spear. 

Better than leaving "all" of the unused money in a Bank.  I can also use the gold silver ratios to increase my holdings at no paper expense too.  (meaning not having to dip into the bank for extra cash)

I buy physical while it is still cheap and will continue to stack.  It is always good to have real wealth in your portfolio. 

Diversify!!


----------



## electronicmaster (11 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes Explod. But it you guys that are claiming that this is "the largest financial fraud in history"




Yea, it should read "Possibly the largest financial fraud in history"  



Trembling Hand said:


> I'm simply saying it aint. If you guys wanna play the cash dollar devaluing there are better ways to profit from it.




Yep, cool, ok.



Trembling Hand said:


> Thats why, imo, PMs have not been the great break out trade recently, oil, equities & risk currencies will/have been.




Yep, cool, ok.   



Trembling Hand said:


> And as much as you dudes think Global Macro will flood into PMs I just don't see it. Interestingly for all the reasons that you bugs think that they will.




Yep, cool, ok.



Trembling Hand said:


> And I could go on about the reasons why that is so but whenever you discuss this topic with bugs you cannot get to a decent discussion point because so much energy is wasting in dealing with BS.




What sort of BS are you dealing with on this matter?


----------



## electronicmaster (11 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not true. In fact probably the opposite. I spend every day from 7am till midnight thinking about it.
> 
> EXACTLY. Thats why the shorters/speculators are doing a great service to today's wage earner and future generations. In any product stocks, futs & PM. Shorters limit price, maybe, or make sure something stays closer to real value. *What the gold bugs are wanting is financial armageddon just for their own benefit*. You cannot dispute it. Fark the rest. They want the system to collapse? *Then what? *
> 
> ...




This is not 100% correct.  People also invest in Gold because they do not trust their government.  If hyper inflation happens?  It is due to both government spending, and exponential increase of the money supply.  Other factors like debt well be involved too. 

The worlds economic system is very vast and complex.    Gold and Silver can go up in price during deflation too.  But that is another story.  We will face deflation you have never seen before in the future.  I doubt many will have jobs to make a good living by then.

EDIT: China has been buying Silver and Gold for a while but have not effected the price of the market while doing so.  That is buy choice,  I also by on the dips. 

To explain the 100% bit.  Apart from China, 99% of people on the street do not know what Gold is priced at or why they should hold gold.  They won't invest into the market until it is too late.  So no, Gold investors won't cause  the financial Armageddon.  Only governments can do that due to excessive spending at the tax payers expense.


----------



## skyQuake (11 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> EDIT: China has been buying Silver and Gold for a while but have not effected the price of the market while doing so.  That is buy choice,  I also by on the dips.
> 
> To explain the 100% bit.  Apart from China, 99% of people on the street do not know what Gold is priced at or why they should hold gold.  They won't invest into the market until it is too late.  So no, Gold investors won't cause  the financial Armageddon.  Only governments can do that due to excessive spending at the tax payers expense.




Gold yes, but do you have any proof for non-industrial buying of silver on a similar scale? (china that is)


----------



## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

skyQuake said:


> Gold yes, but do you have any proof for non-industrial buying of silver on a similar scale? (china that is)




Hard to get that info directly.  But lets see here:-






Not sure about this video.  In Chinese it says:-

13日下午三点左右，武汉市晶银投资公司金融诈骗案受害者的代表五人来到北京，他们要在人大闭幕是向人大代表陈诉他们的冤情。
有2000人签字的控告书，博讯义工只拍摄部分材料。

Translates to:-

At 15:00 on the on the 13th or so, crystal silver investment company in Wuhan financial fraud on behalf of five victims arrived in Beijing, they are closing in the NPC deputies impact statements to their grievances.
2,000 people signed the indictment, Boxun volunteers take part of the materials only.


----------



## subi1 (12 April 2010)

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/metal_are_in_the_pits_2arTlGNbMK7mb1uJeVHb0O/1#ixzz0kpMKaysA

Interesting story in the mainstream


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> To explain the 100% bit.  Apart from China, 99% of people on the street do not know what Gold is priced at or why they should hold gold.




I doubt that. Have you been to the US or Europe lately? There is more prime time ads on TV and tabloid print about buying gold than there is for Ab Circle Pro.


----------



## explod (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> I doubt that. Have you been to the US or Europe lately? There is more prime time ads on TV and tabloid print about buying gold than there is for Ab Circle Pro.




Yeh all the dealers are wanting to buy it, particularly in the UK and here in Aus and they are only paying people for scrap at half price.  Dont' worry the scammers know, Ageo could reveal more on this.


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

explod said:


> Yeh all the dealers are wanting to buy it, particularly in the UK and here in Aus and they are only paying people for scrap at half price.  Dont' worry the scammers know, Ageo could reveal more on this.




Explod that is wrong. Have you been there? Have you seen an afternoon of TV in the states? Have you sat in a subway and seen the adds on the walls and in the trains?


----------



## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Explod that is wrong. Have you been there? Have you seen an afternoon of TV in the states? Have you sat in a subway and seen the adds on the walls and in the trains?




Yea it is true.  The scams are to sucker in the masses.  Remember that people on the street have no idea what gold and silver investing is about.  They are more into the cash like winning the jackpot.  

A lot of people are in debt so they will part with gold.

Here is just one of those scams in the UK:- 

 

True gold and Silver investors know better than to be played like that.


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> Yea it is true.




What is? You cannot seriously tell me that they are all about buying off punters in trouble. *If you are you haven't been there*. There is STACKs of ads on gold as the greatest ever investment?


----------



## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> What is? You cannot seriously tell me that they are all about buying off punters in trouble. *If you are you haven't been there*. There is STACKs of ads on gold as the greatest ever investment?




Oh adverts giving advise to buy Gold,  I thought you meant adds on buying gold.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> What is? You cannot seriously tell me that they are all about buying off punters in trouble. *If you are you haven't been there*. There is STACKs of ads on gold as the greatest ever investment?




Some of the replies in here really make me doubt the sanity of a few members on ASF........


----------



## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

I wonder how the US markets react tonight?


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

Which ones?


----------



## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Which ones?




Just the commodities market.


----------



## explod (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Explod that is wrong. Have you been there? Have you seen an afternoon of TV in the states? Have you sat in a subway and seen the adds on the walls and in the trains?




It is not wrong.  Have family there and a Son-in-law who also trades and holds physical bullion.  I have been to the UK but not the US, however  related Chuck Butler who writies the Daily Pfennig.

Son-in law states that there are signs on shopfronts everywhere seeking gold or gold jewerly.


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

LOL typical confirmation bias. I've been to the US 4 months ago and Europe before that explod, seen it with my own eyes.

You are full of it. Or your info is rubbish. Take ya pic.


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

Everything opened up but now have rolled over. EUR, oil & silver only ones still strong,

Sell the news or manipulation


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## Uncle Festivus (12 April 2010)

Come on TH, you can join the dark side too and stock up on ammo down on your farm, inside your bunker


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## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Everything opened up but now have rolled over. EUR, oil & silver only ones still strong,
> 
> Sell the news or manipulation




Positioning time. The markets are no longer a free market.  And people seem to be catching on maybe.


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## nulla nulla (12 April 2010)

explod said:


> It is not wrong.  Have family there and a Son-in-law who also trades and holds physical bullion.  I have been to the UK but not the US, however  related Chuck Butler who writies the Daily Pfennig.
> 
> Son-in law states that there are signs on shopfronts everywhere seeking gold or gold jewerly.




Isn't this just a case of dealers seeking to cash in? 
Pure gold is 24 Carat. In Australia gold jewellry is usualy 9 Carat or 18 Carat. In America it is 14 Carat. 
The dealers buy the gold items for a discount to maximise their profits for when they resell them. It is not as if they can melt it down into ingots and hold them as an investment.


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

Explod the US has always had a large amount of second hand dealers and pawn shops trading in gold. Probably due to their low social security system. And of course their business is going to pick up in a recession. Thats just common sense.

*What I have noticed on the last few trips that I don't think I've seen in more than 10 years is companies spruiking gold as an investment on prime time TV along the lines of,*

"Gold is close to record highs and been going up, now is a great time to buy" etc etc etc.


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## explod (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL typical confirmation bias. I've been to the US 4 months ago and Europe before that explod, seen it with my own eyes.
> 
> You are full of it. Or your info is rubbish. Take ya pic.




You are such a wonderfull fellow T/H, in fact, exude perfection.  Must be lonely being the odd one up there.  But do not fear the price of silver will soon be with you in the high and great place.  "You been everywhere man"

Up again today as a matter of fact.  Maybe the manipulators are running for cover.


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## explod (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Explod the US has always had a large amount of second hand dealers and pawn shops trading in gold. Probably due to their low social security system. And of course their business is going to pick up in a recession. Thats just common sense.




If you have a look at my post it was the UK not the US, on those after the scrap.  And here too, we had a flyer in the box over the weekend of a mob wanting scrap or other bullion and will be at Mornington next weekend.   

Why are dealers desperate to get the stuff??


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

explod said:


> If you have a look at my post it was the UK not the US, on those after the scrap.  And here too, we had a flyer in the box over the weekend of a mob wanting scrap or other bullion and will be at Mornington next weekend.
> 
> Why are dealers desperate to get the stuff??




As usual EXPLODE you only address the points you want to. Why are they advertising prime time to sell the useless stuff???? Dose that make you happy.

Please answer just one friggin point that doesn't sit with your bias.


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> What sort of BS are you dealing with on this matter?



Knew I wouldn't have to wait long. Have a look at Explode. Watch him ignore my question. I've already said yep gold dealers are busy at the moment but will Explode reply as to why there are ads on US TV about investing in gold which, to me, is a new thing?

NO F'en way. A discussion with a bug sooner or later turns into a discussion with a brick wall.


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## explod (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> As usual EXPLODE you only address the points you want to. Why are they advertising prime time to sell the useless stuff???? Dose that make you happy.
> 
> Please answer just one friggin point that doesn't sit with your bias.




Wrong, my information is that they are trying to buy the stuff in the UK and here in Aus.  I do not know about the prime time in the US, can you assist with that.

Happy discussions with a goading gun.   The cussing is not a good look either.


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## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

So you are talking about adds like this one TH?


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> So you are talking about adds like this one TH?




 just like that one.


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## electronicmaster (12 April 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> just like that one.




Oh ok, yea.  That's true. But even so it does not mean most people know anything about Silver and Gold investing.

In fact, most think that those adds are a scam like any other add they see on TV.   Just like we view any other add on Australian TV.  Just because they are advertising Gold and Silver does not mean the audience thinks they should buy it or learn about investing or modern money mechanics.  

Here is some evidence:-

EDIT

end edit.



A lot of them don't know that their own Constitution is the only thing that gives them freedom from the government.  Not that the constitution is been followed by governments any more.

Evidence:-



Yep,  And I'd say you would get the same results here in Australia too.   Australia also has a constitution.  I don't know what is in that constitution myself.  I think Gold and Silver is mentioned in there.


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## Trembling Hand (12 April 2010)

electronicmaster said:


> Oh ok, yea.  That's true. But even so it does not mean most people know anything about Silver and Gold investing.




Yep agree 100% for me its something new and stood out but probably until everyone knows about it will not mean much either way.

BUT 

That will of course not stop explod using what he sees as a positive while NEVER acknowledging that the very opposite is also out there and should count as an equal negative. Go figure hey. Another fact/point ignored by the bugs while they scream manipulation.

I'm done with arguing. You know what they say about arguing with a ......


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## Ageo (12 April 2010)

Time out.....................

Let me help clear some info for you guys.....

There are 2 markets the gold dealers are trying to target

*1 The scrap
*2 Gold Investment

You have to understand there has been more hype on gold then perhaps there has ever been in 2 or more decades (even my brother inlaw who does superannuation seminars for centrelink customers was asked by some people about investing into gold which is a 1st ever.).

So in the scrap field since i have been buying (few yrs now) perhaps in the last 2 yrs there has been a massive amount of "companies/scammers" who have come in purely to buy/sell and make a hugh margin. 1 of them is Gold buyers who in 6 months opened 150 shops and makes ****loads of cash. These guys will leave the seen once things die down and they have made their fair share.

And because of the gold hype of course gold has become a main attraction to gold "investment" bullion/coins etc.... the last 2 yrs has seen perhaps the busiest times for people selling bullion etc... I have sold so much bullion its not funny and alot of my customers have been flat chat selling 100 ounces a day sometimes.

All in all yes the hype has fueled the price no doubt but remember TH it would be wise to hold a small allocation of your portfolio in actual physical for wealth preservation. But then again each person knows their situation the best so everyone is different and has different views.

P.S i just bought 4.5kgs of scrap today so obviously people are still in the spirit of recycling 

The 1 very interesting thing thow which has never happened before is that super companies are actually now looking at allocating a small section to commodities (mainly gold) which could effect the POG in a big way. But thats a work in progress. (this was confirmed by the chief of ABC melb).


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## explod (14 April 2010)

> That will of course not stop explod using what he sees as a positive while NEVER acknowledging that the very opposite is also out there and should count as an equal negative. Go figure hey. Another fact/point ignored by the bugs while they scream manipulation.



  T/H can you give any clear indications of negatives for silver at this time.    Since 2001 the chart indicates that it is in a long term up trend.

The add on u.tube does not indicate if they are flogging physical in the hand or paper notes or shares such as ASX GOLD.  There is a big difference and in a big squeeze the latter holders could end with ziltch.

Interview with Ted Butlers on his present to the US President's enquiry into silver manipulation is worth a look.   see   http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1271170061.php


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## Miro (14 April 2010)

*Exclusive: Second Whistleblower Emerges - A Deep Insider's Walkthru To Silver Market Manipulation*


A second whistleblower speaks. As the topic of physical delivery has  gained prominent attention recently, it is crucial to complete  the  circle and show how this weakest link in the PM market is (ab)used by  the big boys: Phibro and Warren Buffet. Pay particular attention to the  analogues between the methods employed in the 90's commodity market and  how the PM (and equity) market is being gamed currently. And to think  that each new generation of traders believes it has discovered something  new...


http://www.zerohedge.com/article/ex...-insiders-walkthru-silver-market-manipulation


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## electronicmaster (17 April 2010)

*Silver prices to ZOOM if manipulation is proved* 


The articel link is here:-
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Silver-prices-to-zoom-if-manipulation-is-proved-27411-3-1.html


*KING World news interviews Jim Rickards*

In our continuing coverage of what could be the largest fraud in history we interviewed Jim Rickards the day after the release of the Harvey and Lenny Organ and Adrian Douglas blockbuster to get his...

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/4/14_Jim_Rickards.html

*Is Silver Ready to Surge?*
_*uncommon wisdom*_
http://www.uncommonwisdomdaily.com/is-silver-ready-to-surge-9174?FIELD9=1


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## GoodCall (23 April 2010)

Eric Townsend at financialsense.com has written an article which debunks some of the claims this thread has raised.  Here is his article, which is rather long as he attempts to clarify some of the issues involved and he explains how the futures markets work.


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## explod (24 April 2010)

GoodCall said:


> Eric Townsend at financialsense.com has written an article which debunks some of the claims this thread has raised.  Here is his article, which is rather long as he attempts to clarify some of the issues involved and he explains how the futures markets work.




But he is very careful to say that he is not sure if the Fed are behind the fourth point, that is that JP Morgan's forward contracts positions.

Another view again which indicates some convienient ommissions on physical backing  :- http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1272028191.php


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## Uncle Festivus (24 April 2010)

> There       is good reason to question JP Morgan’s concentrated short  position in       COMEX silver futures, and to investigate allegations  that JPM used it to manipulate       the silver market.




That's about the crux of it then? The fact that GATA  stuffed up in their exuberance is a side issue?

Looks like 'the losers' have been vindicated yet again with the SEC charges against Goldman Sachs, although they will probably let some poor low rank take the rap? But the noose is tightening on the neck of the 'too big to fail' boys club, only a matter of time for the truth to be revealed?


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## explod (26 April 2010)

Uncle Festivus said:


> That's about the crux of it then? The fact that GATA  stuffed up in their exuberance is a side issue?
> 
> Looks like 'the losers' have been vindicated yet again with the SEC charges against Goldman Sachs, although they will probably let some poor low rank take the rap? But the noose is tightening on the neck of the 'too big to fail' boys club, only a matter of time for the truth to be revealed?




And further yet on good old Goldman Sachs (which I posted up early today on the gold/silver investment thread ) is well explained by Jeff Nielson and is appropriate here too.

http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/i...-and-gold&catid=48:gold-commentary&Itemid=131


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