# The worst government in Australia's history?



## Bushman (13 February 2013)

A serious question for those interested in the political process in Australia - is this Gillard government the worst government we have ever witnessed? 

A quick synopsis of just some of the current issues coming back to haunt Gillard and Swan:

1. The on-going Obeid scandal in the NSW Right, the engine room of the 'faceless men' that forced KRudd from office.  
2. The farcical MRRT take of only $126m, with the cross benches in revolt at the porky pies told to them by Swanny.
3. Two sitting, Labor endorsed MPs before the courts. 
4. Roxon and co leaving en mass. 
5. The Nova Perris debacle, with Gillard stitching up one of KRuddy's NT senators in the process. 
6. The back-flip on the budget surplus. 
7. The carbon tax job losses now being felt in the teeth of an East Coast recession. 
8. Swan's attack on Twiggy Forrest at the time of the poorly conceived mining resources tax now playing out with him having egg on his face. 
9. KRudd appearing on Youtube and social media every day with a evangelical, revenge-filled glint in his eyes. 

.... and these are just some of the current issues facing this government. 

So the question for the historians amongst us must be are we bearing witness to the most incompetent, ill disciplined and polarising Federal government in Australia's history? There is not a doubt in my mind that this is the worst government in the modern era. All Gillard's chickens are coming home to roost it seems.


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## Logique (13 February 2013)

BER, Pink Batts, houses going on fire, drownings at sea... 

Beyond question. 

For state governments, NSW was a train wreck pre 2012.


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## dutchie (13 February 2013)

This is surely a rhetorical question !

No other government comes even close (including Gough's).


Started with the election of Rudd and will finally end with the defeat of Gillard.


Well may we say "God save Australia", because nothing will save the Labor Party!


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## noco (13 February 2013)

dutchie said:


> This is surely a rhetorical question !
> 
> No other government comes even close (including Gough's).
> 
> ...




+1 and I will drink to that.

Talk of tomorrow will see the end of Gillard and an election well before 14th September well on the cards..


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## sydboy007 (13 February 2013)

The Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) has so many examples of poor Governance.

Don't forget

Kerosene baths in aged care facilities...oh no that was Bronwyn Bishop under the Howard Govt

Locking up the innocent like Vivien Solon, Cornelia Rau and Mohammed haneef...oh that was under the Previous Howard Govt.  Damn

What about the private health insurance rebate and when it was originally set up it allowed people to make double claims costing millions of dollars...dang that was under Howard too.

Selling Telstra on the cheap ($12B in in 1997 dollars) was Howard.

The sale of DASFLEET was so badly managed that Macquarie bank took legal action against, you guessed it, the HOWARD Govt.

OASITO is the gift that kept on taking form the Australina tax payers.  This Govt department set up under Howard bungled IT contracts so badly that some Govt departments were spending days off line, tens of million of dollars in lost productivity because staff couldn't do their jobs.

Private sector providers were so bad, the story went among bureaucrats, that John Fahey had demanded and got the insourcing of IT for his personal office so it could actually continue to function.

In 2001, the ANAO looked at the sale of Commonwealth property and its leaseback to the Public Service and found that some departments like Foreign Affairs and Trade were paying so much rent for properties they had previously owned that it was a net cost to the Commonwealth - one agency was predicted to lose nearly $100m over the course of its 20-year lease.  The sales did let Howard brag about paying off the debt (1/3 of which was from his previous time as Treasurer), but left the budget in structural deficit by the time he lost office.

ANAO found some agencies’ handling of foreign exchange hedging lost millions of dollars on currency movements.

A 2000 review of the reliance of the Howard Government on consultants - worth $370m a year - was scathing, identifying systemic problems in the way agencies hired and used consultants.

A review of the greenhouse programs established by the Howard Government found that what carbon abatement the programs had obtained had been secured at prices ranging up to $150 a tonne - no wonder so many people are against programs to reduce emissions when the previous Govt made them so expensive!

There was a direct link between the failure of the Howard Government to remedy the military justice system despite repeated warnings, and the deaths of ADF personnel. These deaths are far greater in number than those attributed to problems in the insulation program.

Tony wants to take us back to THAT.  Doesn't seem much better than what we've got now, could be worse if Tony wants to emulate Howard's last term in office and SPEND SPEND SPEND.


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## white_goodman (13 February 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Selling Telstra on the cheap ($12B in in 1997 dollars) was Howard..




what beautiful prices did Labor get when selling off the alleged kitchen sink?

and I don't think identifying inefficient agencies that operate the same under both govt's as anything particularly scathing

glass houses throwing pebbles


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## sydboy007 (13 February 2013)

white_goodman said:


> what beautiful prices did Labor get when selling off the alleged kitchen sink?
> 
> and I don't think identifying inefficient agencies that operate the same under both govt's as anything particularly scathing
> 
> glass houses throwing pebbles




My point is that neither side seems to be particularly adept at ensuring tax payer money isn't wasted.

The current LNP harp on about the waste and mismanagement of the current Govt.

I just want to highlight they didn't seem to do much better.

Now if they had repaid 96B without asset sales, I'd gladly call them amazing economic managers - they COULD have achieved that but spent the 100B in extra corporate tax revenue from RB-I.  All that middle class welfare sent the budget into structural deficit.  Would a good economic manager do that?

To crow about paying off the debt when you sold 76B in assets, not such a big achievement.

How much did going to Iraq the second time cost us?  Over a million people marched against sending our troops in on FALSE intelligence data and we were IGNORED.


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## white_goodman (13 February 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> How much did going to Iraq the second time cost us?  Over a million people marched against sending our troops in on FALSE intelligence data and we were IGNORED.





its only a false premise if you watch tin hat documentaries, at the time the intelligence was indicating that.. why?
The US had sold it to them, the Kurds had bared the brunt of it... tell a Kurdish-Iraqi that Saddam didnt have any WMD's.. An argument for the weighting of whether oil v WMD's is a different matter..

Draw up a list of privatizations prior to 96, it may shock you. And on that would a good economic manager have nationalised more firms/industries?

heres a mock Howard interview based on Lazarus rising that you may find good for your arguments

http://economics.org.au/2010/11/exclusive-john-howard-interview-on-lazarus-rising/


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## drsmith (13 February 2013)

*EEDDIITT* :frown:

Yep. it's the worst government in Australia's history.



> Mining companies Rio Tinto and BHP Billiton have built up a $1.7 billion arsenal of tax credits - and do not have to pay any mining tax until they are used up.




http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...for-rio-bhp-20130212-2ebih.html#ixzz2KizVnKd5

If I correctly understand Joe Hockey's comments in parliament yesterday after question time, that indexes at CPI + 7%.

Mercy rule *PPLLEEAASSEE.*


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## So_Cynical (13 February 2013)

Bushman said:


> A serious question for those interested in the political process in Australia - is this Gillard government the worst government we have ever witnessed?




Bushy short memory? or are you to young to know?

Compared to the Liberal National Coalition that ruled Queensland for 2 decades (1968 to 1987) ~  4 ministers and the premier charged with corruption and 2 jailed along with the police commissioner....now thats the hands down the worst government in Australian history, with daylight second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh_Bjelke-Petersen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzgerald_Inquiry

Edit: seems all the ASF right has selective memory loss.


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## explod (13 February 2013)

The esteemed Sir Robert Menzies was selling pig ion to the Japanese which was being used to manufacture weapons for their war efforts against us.  My Grandmother referred to him as "Pig Ion Bob"

He was kicked out at the next election and Chifley (or was it Curtain first, memory only here) got us back on the right track and mobilised the troops away from Europe and back where they were needed around the northern and pacific areas.

When some of you dopes put up a heading to a thread you would think a bit of research and/or of course monitoring by ASF staff would be in order.


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## drsmith (13 February 2013)

Taking the above as given, that makes it the worst federal government since WW2.


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## sptrawler (13 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Bushy short memory? or are you to young to know?
> 
> Compared to the Liberal National Coalition that ruled Queensland for 2 decades (1968 to 1987) ~  4 ministers and the premier charged with corruption and 2 jailed along with the police commissioner....now thats the hands down the worst government in Australian history, with daylight second.
> 
> ...




Oh I wouldn't go as far as to say that So-Cynical, the Labor Government of Brian Burke in W.A., would take some stacking.lol
The Premier was jailed along with a senior minister of the cabinet. I think my Premier, beats your 4 ministers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Burke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Parker_(Australian_politician)

Of course we can all be topped if it became a Prime Minister and several ministers.


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## drsmith (13 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Of course we can all be topped if it became a Prime Minister and several ministers.



Governed by a psychopath and then a criminal.

That would be hard to top, but Labor could do it.

Psychopath/criminal/return of the psychopath.

It's a government that's already check mated itself twice on the resources tax.

Still, it can claim to have had the worlds best treasurer.


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## white_goodman (13 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Edit: seems all the ASF right has selective memory loss.




or simply we werent born


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## moXJO (13 February 2013)

explod said:


> The esteemed Sir Robert Menzies was selling pig ion to the Japanese which was being used to manufacture weapons for their war efforts against us.  My Grandmother referred to him as "Pig Ion Bob"




Plod thats wrong. He sold to the japs after the war. Back when labor was commie scum


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## moXJO (13 February 2013)

Phone posting prob


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## Knobby22 (13 February 2013)

They got us the the GFC with not much damage. They have generally been a competant if not visionary government. 
We in Australia are blessed with good governments at the Federal level, so lucky when compared to many others.  ...but hey Australia has taken the mantle as the biggest whingers in the world off the poms.  Keep it up.


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## sptrawler (13 February 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> They got us the the GFC with not much damage. They have generally been a competant if not visionary government.
> We in Australia are blessed with good governments at the Federal level, so lucky when compared to many others.  ...but hey Australia has taken the mantle as the biggest whingers in the world off the poms.  Keep it up.




The good thing in Australia is the governments are flipped on a regular basis. Therefore no boys clubs start up between the parties.


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## jbocker (14 February 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> They got us the the GFC with not much damage. They have generally been a competant if not visionary government.
> We in Australia are blessed with good governments at the Federal level, so lucky when compared to many others.  ...but hey Australia has taken the mantle as the biggest whingers in the world off the poms.  Keep it up.




Good points Knobby22. There are truckloads of country's i would be really unhappy to be in. i think our govts are pretty middle of the road, I do get upset at how much sliming there is against each other (and within). 
I could only imagine what could happen if they actually got on with their work.

I always thought a close govt with line ball seats would make a govt perform well. I dont sense that that has been the case. I feel that the independents had hamstrung the govt particularly early and I hope we dont suffer that again.
Had we really taken that mantle from the Poms. Shame. We really need to have a look at ourselves.  And ask why are so many busting their R's to get here?

jb


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## Bushman (14 February 2013)

Some disappointing responses on this thread so far. The intent is to have a genuine discussion of where the Gillard government sits in the spectrum of worst Federal governments in Australian history. I do not think that anyone, even rusted-on Labor die hards, would say that this government is one of the best governments we have had. 

It is interesting some of the comparisons with the Howard government. When the dust settles and we reflect back on Howard, for me the legacy of his government is mixed. His chief victories were the GST, the Future Fund, industrial relations reform, balance sheet repair and gun control. His losses were immigration/xenophobia, excessive middle class welfare, the degradation of the National Party and rural rights and the frittering away of Australia's mining largesse. His chief scandal was the 'children overboard' saga. 

For those asking about my age, I was born in 1976 so my engagement in the political process starts with Hawke and Keating. Out of the five PMs, Keating was my favourite; in terms of Treasurers, Costello wins hands up. Worst PM by miles is Gillard, worst Treasurer is Swan. The Gillard government, in my mind, will forever be synonomous with 'out and out' corruption, the abuse of the political process in the naked pursuit of individual power, an erosion of libertarian values and outright class warfare. 

That is how I see it. I am genuinely interested in the views of other, though, especially the insights of some 'old timers' for want of a better turn of phrase.


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## Surly (14 February 2013)

I was born in 1969 and to answer your question slightly differently.

Gillard: Worst federal government in an election I voted in.

Lawrence: Worst state government in an election I voted in.

I missed Burke by a year or two.

cheers
Surly


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## orr (14 February 2013)

Like earthquakes have the Richter maybe we need to introduce a scale. I could put forth the Brevik Scale named for Anders Brevik who saw fit to pre-emptively assassinate the future political threat to his 'best of all possible worlds'. 
So a for instance may be;

Electric Eric-----------------------.47
Burke -----------------------------.51
Joh Bjelkee's administration----.65 on the Brevik... serious incapacitation necessary
Robert Askin----------------------.69 on the Brevik...  even more serious incapacitation necessary
NSW Labor 2000-2011-----------.77 on the Brevik.... and so on.
Billy McMahon--------------------. lean forward and rub forehead

This could be more easily quantified than you may think, you only have to ask yourself at what point would you actually start to feel sympathy for a Brevik, or revulsion,  to gauge where it sits on the scale. 
You may find yourself, as I have on many occasions, uttering 'They needed a good and early Breviking' or 'there's never a Brevik around when you need one'
With respect to the current government and its predecessor on their obsequiousness to the yanks re Hicks and Assange... both showing utter contempt for due process, which is our only protection against tyranny there's a few points up the Brevik for that.

He was 'Pig Iron Bob' for shipping to imperial  japan  pre war as Plod correctly stated. When waterside workers, what were to become the MUA, refused to load scrap bound to Japan. There was a little Raping of Nanking going on at the time. But I don't come to this forum for my history and neither should anyone else.


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## Surly (14 February 2013)

moXJO said:


> Plod thats wrong. He sold to the japs after the war. Back when labor was commie scum




I think you may have Menzies mixed up with Lang Hancock's lobbying for the embargo to be lifted and his success in 1961.

cheers
Surly


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## Macquack (14 February 2013)

Bushman said:


> It is interesting some of the comparisons with the Howard government. When the dust settles and we reflect back on Howard, for me the legacy of his government is mixed. His *chief victories were the GST*....



The GST, the tax that was "never ever" to be introduced is considered to be a victory? 

The GST still pisses me off today, an effective flat 10% income tax.



Bushman said:


> The Gillard government, in my mind, will forever be synonomous with* 'out and out' corruption*, the abuse of the political process in the naked pursuit of individual power, an erosion of libertarian values and *outright class warfare. *



"*'out and out' corruption*? Apart from Thomson, care to enlighten us?

"*outright class warfare*"? You have to be joking, right?


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## IFocus (14 February 2013)

Gee another Labor bashing thread with puerile points who would have guessed.

Howard lost 8 or 9 ministers in his 1st term due to scandal. 

I don't know of one Federal government that hasn't lost at least 2 or 3.........except Rudd / Gillard.


How about Australia's greatest lying opposition.


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## wayneL (14 February 2013)

Macquack said:


> The GST, the tax that was "never ever" to be introduced is considered to be a victory?
> 
> The GST still pisses me off today, an effective flat 10% income tax.




Pop quiz for you McQuack... what taxes did GST replace? Hint - one begins with the letters ST.


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## Macquack (14 February 2013)

wayneL said:


> Pop quiz for you McQuack... what taxes did GST replace? Hint - *one begins with the letters ST*.




Just F*cking spell it out Wayne?

If you are refering to Sales Tax, I can tell you, Sales Tax was not on f*cking everything.


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## wayneL (14 February 2013)

Macquack said:


> Just F*cking spell it out Wayne?
> 
> If you are refering to Sales Tax, I can tell you, Sales Tax was not on f*cking everything.




No, but there were varying f*cking rates from f*cking 5% to f*cking 30% IIRC. Some f*cking items were f*cking unclear which f*cking rate they f*cking attracted and were at the f*cking whim of the f*cking ATO. Make it an administration f*cking nightmare.

Your f*cking point?


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## Macquack (14 February 2013)

wayneL said:


> No, but there were varying f*cking rates from f*cking 5% to f*cking 30% IIRC. Some f*cking items were f*cking unclear which f*cking rate they f*cking attracted and were at the f*cking whim of the f*cking ATO. Make it an administration f*cking nightmare.
> 
> Your f*cking point?




My point is, I f*cking don't like the GST.

You seem to love it, fair enough.


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## wayneL (14 February 2013)

Macquack said:


> My point is, I f*cking don't like the GST.
> 
> You seem to love it, fair enough.




I said I love it?

When direct taxation is high, I don't like indirect (AKA consumption) taxes, because they are effectively taxes on taxes.... taxing already taxed income.

However, I do prefer it to the old BS system of sales tax.

YMMV


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## Macquack (14 February 2013)

wayneL said:


> I said I love it?
> 
> When direct taxation is high, I don't like indirect (AKA consumption) taxes, because they are effectively taxes on taxes.... taxing already taxed income.
> 
> ...




You are no whipper snapper, are you Wayne?

I do sympathise with Explod etc. that don't readily understand the miriad of internet shortcuts/slang, so start acting your age and stop trying to be a smart **** teenager.


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## wayneL (14 February 2013)

Macquack said:


> You are no whipper snapper, are you Wayne?
> 
> I do sympathise with Explod etc. that don't readily understand the miriad of internet shortcuts/slang, so start acting your age and stop trying to be a smart **** teenager.




Ahhhh the familiar leftist resort to ad hom... must be a thesis in that. 

By the way (or BTW if you like), in the technical fora (metallurgy & equine distal digit pathology) I hang out where the average age is > 40, such acronyms are common.

However I do admit to being young at heart.


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## Macquack (14 February 2013)

By the way Wayne, was there ever a sales tax on horse shoes? This is a serious question.


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## wayneL (14 February 2013)

20%

But in the interests of fair discourse, 10% GST is far mor costly for the end consumer. The cost of the horseshoes, (if I happen to buy them, sometimes I make then from scratch) is a small proportion of of the cost. My iniquitous fee for service forms the greater proportion of the bill.


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## moXJO (14 February 2013)

Surly said:


> I think you may have Menzies mixed up with Lang Hancock's lobbying for the embargo to be lifted and his success in 1961.
> 
> cheers
> Surly




Apology to plod he was correct.


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## Bushman (14 February 2013)

Macquack said:


> The GST, the tax that was "never ever" to be introduced is considered to be a victory?
> 
> The GST still pisses me off today, an effective flat 10% income tax.
> 
> ...




Very serious Mac; the AWU scandal, Obeid the leader of the faceless men, Thomson. Class warfare would be Wayne swan attacking industry leaders and the ' rich' or gillard handbag hit squad attack on Anglo Saxon male Australia. Btw, the gst replaced layers upon layers of protectionist sales taxes. if only the australian democrats had not been able to corrupt its elegance with their populist adjustments.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2013)

They are out to screw SMSF's now.

They have run out of money.

They are now screwing a segment of the population who actually worked while they played their Union members off, living the highlife with prostitutes and giving each other coal permits for $1, worth millions.

Definitely the worst government ever in Australia's history. Even worse than Whitlam.

gg


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## tinhat (14 February 2013)

IFocus said:


> Gee another Labor bashing thread with puerile points who would have guessed.
> 
> Howard lost 8 or 9 ministers in his 1st term due to scandal.
> 
> ...




Don't forget the Colour TV affair (Fraser government) or the Paddington Bear affair (Hawke government). That was the era of true scandal.


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## sails (14 February 2013)

GG - so do you now believe me when I said Gillard never had the 'vibe'?


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> They are out to screw SMSF's now.
> 
> They have run out of money.
> 
> ...






tinhat said:


> Don't forget the Colour TV affair (Fraser government) or the Paddington Bear affair (Hawke government). That was the era of true scandal.






sails said:


> GG - so do you now believe me when I said Gillard never had the 'vibe'?




Thanks posters.

This is the worst Australian government ever.

A lack of governance, a total misunderstanding of finance and the ethic of the electorate, and a ruling party beset by sleaze and corrupt self-interest.

As Justice Ipp would say

"Answer the question Eddie "

gg


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## drsmith (14 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> They are out to screw SMSF's now.
> 
> They have run out of money.
> 
> ...



Thank goodness the previous government made it hard for them to raise the GST.


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## So_Cynical (15 February 2013)

Probably should point out that the GST pretty much killed the Australian Democrats as the party disintegrated after the Democrats allowed the legislation to pass through the senate...ah those were the days.

There are 3 party's responsible for the GST, Liberals , Nationals, Democrats....with out all three it simply would not of happened.


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## Garpal Gumnut (15 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Probably should point out that the GST pretty much killed the Australian Democrats as the party disintegrated after the Democrats allowed the legislation to pass through the senate...ah those were the days.
> 
> There are 3 party's responsible for the GST, Liberals , Nationals, Democrats....with out all three it simply would not of happened.




Good advice on who to vote for.

Libs, Nats.

Do the Democrats still exist at the bottom of the garden?

Where would Swannie be without the GST.

He's buggered anyway, but without the GST he would be up **** creek without a paddle.

gg


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> There are 3 party's responsible for the GST, Liberals , Nationals, Democrats.....



and the electorate.


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Where would Swannie be without the GST.



The Libs did a good job in Labor proofing the GST.

It's too hard for them to raise it.


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## Garpal Gumnut (15 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> The Libs did a good job in Labor proofing the GST.
> 
> It's too hard for them to raise it.




Don't bet on it.

My contacts when they can sober up in Treasury say that nothing is not up for grabs.

It's 1975 all over again with this budget.

gg


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Don't bet on it.



Don't they have to get all the states to agree ?

I can't see the Lib states coming to the party on that.


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## sydboy007 (15 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> The Libs did a good job in Labor proofing the GST.
> 
> It's too hard for them to raise it.




Considering how bankrupt most of the states are, how dependant they are on stoopid stamp duties and resource royalties, a comprehensive reform of income taxes with an increase in the GST is probably the only way to improve the finances of the states, unless we're all willing to see major cut backs in healthcare and public transport.

It will be the states who will have to bring the community on board to give the Federal pollies the balls to do anything.

Can't see much happening though.  Neither side of pollitics is interested in reform.  Too scary to try and explain something to the punters.  easier to tell us how easy they ill make our lives and we can have first class everything and lower taxes.

I'll be interested to see how Abbott will go about funding all his pet projects.  He was in a Govt that had endless bounty from sky high corporate taxes.  Nary a trade off for funding extra middle class welfare.  Now the money has dried up, not sure if Tony has a clue how to fund things, unless he's going to increase taxes like he is to fund his obscenely expensive parental leave.


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> It will be the states who will have to bring the community on board to give the Federal pollies the balls to do anything.



Not while the current government soils the federal chambers.

In my view, the GST should be broadened rather than raised as this would also simplify it.


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

Bushman said:


> The intent is to have a genuine discussion of where the Gillard government sits in the spectrum of worst Federal governments in Australian history. I do not think that anyone, even rusted-on Labor die hards, would say that this government is one of the best governments we have had.



Has the title of this thread undergone a subtle but significant change ?

I seem to recall it was originally a specific question of this government.


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## IFocus (15 February 2013)

tinhat said:


> Don't forget the Colour TV affair (Fraser government) or the Paddington Bear affair (Hawke government). That was the era of true scandal.




While we are at it Mal Colston, Australian Wheat, Iraq (Howard)


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## Garpal Gumnut (15 February 2013)

IFocus said:


> While we are at it Mal Colston, Australian Wheat, Iraq (Howard)




Yeh, but you are biased.

In the centre the view is more clear.

This is the worst government ever.

gg


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## noco (15 February 2013)

Who in the hell said Wayne Swan was the greatest treasurer?

He has not got a clue on economics.

SPIN, SPIN SPIN.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rein-in-spending/story-fnbkvnk7-1226578257023


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## noco (15 February 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Considering how bankrupt most of the states are, how dependant they are on stoopid stamp duties and resource royalties, a comprehensive reform of income taxes with an increase in the GST is probably the only way to improve the finances of the states, unless we're all willing to see major cut backs in healthcare and public transport.
> 
> It will be the states who will have to bring the community on board to give the Federal pollies the balls to do anything.
> 
> ...




It is very simple economics.

Cut out the Red Tape, the Green tape, the MRRT, the Carbon tax and allow business to get on with running their business in a profitable manner.

Increased profits means increased taxes for the government.

Do you get the picture or do I have to paint it for you.


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## So_Cynical (15 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> and the electorate.




HUH..is it possible you mean the electorate that voted Noalition 49.02% ~ Labor  50.98% in the 1998 Election?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)



drsmith said:


> The Libs did a good job in Labor proofing the GST.
> 
> It's too hard for them to raise it.




Talk today that it will be 1 vote Tony who raises it, to pay for the unfunded promises...wonder how the greens will feel about that?


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> HUH..is it possible you mean the electorate that voted Noalition 49.02% ~ Labor  50.98% in the 1998 Election?




Yes. The Coalition got more seats. That's how our democracy works. 



So_Cynical said:


> Talk today that it will be 1 vote Tony who raises it, to pay for the unfunded promises...wonder how the greens will feel about that?




We won't be able to cope without the worlds greatest treasurer.



> THE federal government's fiscal position continues to deteriorate, with new data showing a $22 billion deficit in the six months to December 2012.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...position-worsens/story-fn59nsif-1226579055792


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## IFocus (15 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Yeh, but you are biased.
> 
> In the centre the view is more clear.
> 
> ...




LOL Biased ? Around here I think I am more like vermin on the cull list as the shrill gathers momentum. 

Any sort of balance to these conversations has long left the room.


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## IFocus (15 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> We won't be able to cope without the worlds greatest treasurer.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...position-worsens/story-fn59nsif-1226579055792




No problem Hockeys magic calculator will fix that.


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## drsmith (15 February 2013)

IFocus said:


> No problem Hockeys magic calculator will fix that.



It'll be better than Swannies.


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## So_Cynical (15 February 2013)

IFocus said:


> LOL Biased ? Around here I think I am more like vermin on the cull list as the shrill gathers momentum.
> 
> Any sort of balance to these conversations has long left the room.




I was going to say 'God Dam' we need a thumbs up button...but we don't cos the Looney ASF right would be endlessly rewarding themselves, like some sort of bizaro world menziean, flat earth cult.


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## Garpal Gumnut (15 February 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I was going to say 'God Dam' we need a thumbs up button...but we don't cos the Looney ASF right would be endlessly rewarding themselves, like some sort of bizaro world menziean, flat earth cult.




You need to come back to the centre, you are like an ABC producer, planning his or her day.

The world is a good place, it is just not exclusively an ALP world.

There are good people on the right and the left.

Relax.

gg


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## MrBurns (15 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You need to come back to the centre, you are like an ABC producer, planning his or her day.
> 
> The world is a good place, it is just not exclusively an ALP world.
> 
> ...




There are some great people on the left...........non of whom support the Giilard Govt.


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## Smurf1976 (15 February 2013)

orr said:


> Electric Eric-----------------------.47
> Burke -----------------------------.51
> Joh Bjelkee's administration----.65 on the Brevik... serious incapacitation necessary
> Robert Askin----------------------.69 on the Brevik...  even more serious incapacitation necessary
> ...



Of that lot, Electric Eric (Eric Reece, Labor premier of Tasmania 1958 - 1969 and 1972 - 1975) is somewhat unique in having been publicly held in high regard by both major parties. That plus the physical things built and established by his government still account for a great deal of the state's infrastructure and ongoing wealth creation today.

Corruption aside, it could also be said that Sir Joh B did bring about much overall progress for Queensland.


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 February 2013)

Ms.Gillard has announced another $1b spend.

Is it about workers or shoring up her political base in Victoria and South Australia?

From the AFR.



> Key elements of the plan include:
> 
> A $500 million investment in 10 innovation precincts that will bring together business, the research sector and service providers to work together. The first two precincts will be a manufacturing precinct in Melbourne and Adelaide and a food precinct in Melbourne.




This is getting beyond a joke.

gg


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## Miss Hale (17 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Ms.Gillard has announced another $1b spend.
> 
> Is it about workers or shoring up her political base in Victoria and South Australia?
> 
> ...




What a waste.  This will have no impact at all.  Save the money and get rid of all the red tape, green tape and other barriers that make starting or running a business difficult these days.


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## sails (17 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Ms.Gillard has announced another $1b spend.
> 
> Is it about workers or shoring up her political base in Victoria and South Australia?
> 
> ...




Ant this while she potentially makes young children's lives even harder by forcing their mums out to work before the kids are in high school.

They have continued dangling the baby bonus to bring these kids into the world with policies to allow the single parents to stay at home on a small income until their kids are older.  No problem with bringing it back to age 12, but 8 is much too young to be a latch key kid if the parent can't afford child care out of pocket fees.

And this will not even save a billion over four years - and I think they have the costings wrong anyway.  There will be higher child care rebates for the government for some of these parents and some kids will likely end up in foster care because the parent has too much on their plate (much more expensive for the government).

It's all about votes for Gillard.  Single parents are only a small part of the community and so easy to dispense with them and their kids while dishing out larger amounts to get votes.


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## FlyingFox (17 February 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> What a waste.  This will have no impact at all.  Save the money and get rid of all the red tape, green tape and other barriers that make starting or running a business difficult these days.




I agree with your point about the red tape etc but disagree that this is a waste. Australia already punches above its weight when it comes to research and innovation. We need to increase this further. We do not have very many competitive industries left. 

We need to find more niche industries and marketd etc because unless we significantly devalue our dollar, many traditional industries including manufacturing and tourism are dead.

Now I have have not read the details of the plan so the execution of it still could be a complete waste.


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## Bushman (19 February 2013)

The polls have spoken and the message is this government is a shocker. 

What I find surprising from Labor die hards is that they seem to not be able to see the damage Gillard and Swan are doing to the ALP brand? This could set the party back for a decade and that is not good for the political process. 

Meanwhile Krudd is making more and more theatrical denials regarding the leadership. He is 'old testament' in his need for revenge. The party that ate itself.

***** addendum - Milne has now said that the Green-Labor alliance is dead due to the lies to the minorities about the MRRT. Burn, baby, burn. Watch the other cross benchers that are not in the docks run for the hills too. Survival and relevance will be the word of the day.


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## nulla nulla (19 February 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Ms.Gillard has announced another $1b spend.
> 
> Is it about workers or shoring up her political base in Victoria and South Australia?
> 
> ...




Actualy the joke is more in how long it is spent over and how it will be funded. The reality is, it is something that would only ever have a chance of happening "if" labour was re-elected and survived another term. The reality is, this "spend" will never ever happen. Hollow rhetoric from a desperate skipper clutching at straws.

Further, the longer the ALP caucus and numbers men continue to support Gillard, the more credibility they lose. It was on the basis of the polls that Kev was knifed. Even though the polls on the morning of the assasination showed that Kev was rebounding. The polls in the last six months or more show that gillard has passed her "use by date". She is well and truly on the nose. 

The reality now is that there will be a change of government. The challange to labour is to minimise the number of seats they are going to lose. Gillard and Swan are liabilities. Too mired in left wing dogma to be able to step back and see the damage they have done. Too blinded by their own ego's to see that they are the problem not the solution.

Like it or lump it, Labor needs to bring back Kev and sweep the halls clean of the "Gillard" team in the lead up to the election, if only to have some hope of retaining sufficient seats to be considered as a real political party. The alternative is to suffer the same humiliation as the NSW labor party and become a second rate opposition...for decades.


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## sails (19 February 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> ...Like it or lump it, Labor needs to bring back Kev and sweep the halls clean of the "Gillard" team in the lead up to the election, if only to have some hope of retaining sufficient seats to be considered as a real political party. The alternative is to suffer the same humiliation as the NSW labor party and become a second rate opposition...for decades.




And then dump him again when it suits them?


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## IFocus (19 February 2013)

sails said:


> And then dump him again when it suits them?




Like Turnbull?


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## MrBurns (19 February 2013)

sails said:


> And then dump him again when it suits them?




I dont think they can bring him back but something's going to happen, not sure what but the phones will be running hot right now I would think.


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## waza1960 (19 February 2013)

> And then dump him again when it suits them?




  If Krudd becomes PM again it will be with conditions IMO...
  Shorten will be Deputy PM and takeover once they lose the election...
  I doubt if Rudd with his massive ego wants to be opposition leader probably wanting a UN post by then


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## Smurf1976 (19 February 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> We need to find more niche industries and marketd etc because unless we significantly devalue our dollar, many traditional industries including manufacturing and tourism are dead.



Such is the problem with all sides of politics and their obsession with not intervening in the market.

What other countries don't push currency values around and/or actively protect their industries in some way?

I'm not against research, but it's not going to employ more than a tiny fraction of the population. We need to keep other industries as well. As for the manufacturing precinct in Adelaide and Melbourne, that's a bit like saying you're going to have a tourism precinct on the Gold Coast or a political precinct in Canberra. There's more than enough abandoned factory sites in Adelaide and Melbourne either sitting empty or used as nothing more than storage etc without needing to set up a special precinct for them. There are also plenty of such sites in Tasmania, and I'd guess that the other states probably have heaps of them as well.


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## sptrawler (19 February 2013)

It's very hard not to be cynical of Gillard running around saying we need to create jobs, when 30,000 have been lost in Victoria alone, since September.

It is about time she started showing the new technolgy jobs that the carbon tax was going to bring about.
Maybe start and highlight the new industries that are being born from the NBN and also from the carbon reduction programes.

The only stand out is the closing down of our solar panel manufacturing.


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## FlyingFox (19 February 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Such is the problem with all sides of politics and their obsession with not intervening in the market.
> What other countries don't push currency values around and/or actively protect their industries in some way?




The problem is we are too small a economy to actually play the game. It is very hard for us to fix the currency here. Even the PM admitted as much this week (that the AUD may be strong for a while to come; propoganda I know but I have not heard anyone from politics admitting this).

Moreover with mining in full swing in the last decade, we have actually lost capabilities in many areas.



Smurf1976 said:


> I'm not against research, but it's not going to employ more than a tiny fraction of the population. We need to keep other industries as well. As for the manufacturing precinct in Adelaide and Melbourne, that's a bit like saying you're going to have a tourism precinct on the Gold Coast or a political precinct in Canberra. There's more than enough abandoned factory sites in Adelaide and Melbourne either sitting empty or used as nothing more than storage etc without needing to set up a special precinct for them. There are also plenty of such sites in Tasmania, and I'd guess that the other states probably have heaps of them as well.




I agree that we need other industries including manufacturing but the truth is we can't compete on labor alone. We need an X factor. A good example is Codan. They are so efficient that they undercut Chinese counterfeiters. Another example is manufacturing using alloys and titanium.

I was at a talk recently about future directions etc. And the presenter showed a map from freelancer.com with jobs originating in AU, US and UK being filled in India, China etc. He went on to say that all the easy work can be easily outsourced. There is a programmer, engineer or even quantum physicist in India, China or Pakistan that will do the job for cheaper. He said we need to do the hard things, the projects that can't be easily done elsewhere or easily outsourced.


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## Julia (19 February 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> Actualy the joke is more in how long it is spent over and how it will be funded. The reality is, it is something that would only ever have a chance of happening "if" labour was re-elected and survived another term. The reality is, this "spend" will never ever happen. Hollow rhetoric from a desperate skipper clutching at straws.
> 
> Further, the longer the ALP caucus and numbers men continue to support Gillard, the more credibility they lose. It was on the basis of the polls that Kev was knifed. Even though the polls on the morning of the assasination showed that Kev was rebounding. The polls in the last six months or more show that gillard has passed her "use by date". She is well and truly on the nose.
> 
> The reality now is that there will be a change of government. The challange to labour is to minimise the number of seats they are going to lose. Gillard and Swan are liabilities. Too mired in left wing dogma to be able to step back and see the damage they have done. Too blinded by their own ego's to see that they are the problem not the solution.



+1.



> Like it or lump it, Labor needs to bring back Kev and sweep the halls clean of the "Gillard" team in the lead up to the election, if only to have some hope of retaining sufficient seats to be considered as a real political party. The alternative is to suffer the same humiliation as the NSW labor party and become a second rate opposition...for decades.



Why should Kevin Rudd agree to save the Labor Party after the way they're treated him at the expense of his own standing?  It's hard to imagine Labor can have even any chance of winning, so I don't see our Kev with his massive ego agreeing to be the patsy who loses the election.
Surely far better for him personally to stay right out of it now, let Julia Gillard experience the massive loss she so deserves, and then graciously accept the Labor Party's begging him to redeem them.


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## sptrawler (19 February 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> The problem is we are too small a economy to actually play the game. It is very hard for us to fix the currency here. Even the PM admitted as much this week (that the AUD may be strong for a while to come; propoganda I know but I have not heard anyone from politics admitting this).
> 
> Moreover with mining in full swing in the last decade, we have actually lost capabilities in many areas.
> 
> ...




Whatever we build, it can be built cheaper overseas. 
The only two things we have, that India and China don't, is huge areas of arable land and easily accessible massive coal and gas reserves. 
That's our x factor and we've cancelled out one, also this government laughs at the other.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2778510.html


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