# Don't be afraid to post!



## Joe Blow

Don't be afraid to start a thread! I want this board to get moving!

Exchanging information is the best way to learn. Two heads are better than one after all!

Go ahead and start a thread - ask a question or tell us about your favourite stock. Or just start a thread even if you have a good joke to tell.

I want to get a real sense of community going here so post away. I want to hear what you have to say!


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## Jewels

Hey Joe,
I'd like to find out a lot more about the practical side of arbitrage.  Can't find a thread on the topic, and I'm not able to start a new thread.  Can you help me out?
Thanks.........Jewels


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## Timmy

What sort of information do you want Jewels?  What sort of questions do you want to ask?  Ask away here and I will start a new thread for you ... though can't understand why you cannot get one started?


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## fordxbt

:22_yikes: whos afraid !


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## Kauri

Joe Blow said:


> Don't be afraid to start a thread! I want this board to get moving!
> 
> Exchanging information is the best way to learn. Two heads are better than one after all!
> 
> Go ahead and start a thread - ask a question or tell us about your favourite stock. Or just start a thread even if you have a good joke to tell.
> 
> I want to get a real sense of community going here so post away. I want to hear what you have to say!




  Don't forget... you invited it.    . now I feel free to really let loose.. :bonk:  

   Slainte
..............Kauri


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## noirua

Kauri said:


> Don't forget... you invited it.    . now I feel free to really let loose.. :bonk:
> 
> Slainte
> ..............Kauri



Hi Kauri and friends, Before you let loose with all these excellent new threads. I'm sure we will all be totally under..., errr sorry, overwhelmed by them.
Go to:  http://www.thebull.com.au/the_stockies/forums.html
Then "feel free" to let loose and vote for Aussie Stock Forums.
You've done it , "GREAT!.  WE await your thread...


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## jimmyjohn

I have downloaded a free trial of Jim Berg's charts etc.  I would like some assistance on what stocks (low price stocks) I could 'watch'.  I have put in ADY (Admiralty Resources).  Is it ok to ask what else I can just watch for a while.


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## CoffeeKing

Hi Joe:

Can the "time out" for logging you OFF ASF be increased, no idea what it currently is, seems too short if you want to explore elsewhere (not within ASF) and come back? 

I find it interesting that there seems to be a lot of "invisible" people out there, amazing how many would actually be active if invisible was not an option?


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## Timmy

CoffeeKing said:


> Can the "time out" for logging you OFF ASF be increased...
> seems too short if you want to explore elsewhere (not within ASF)



See, there's yer problem right there (underlined)


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## Joe Blow

CoffeeKing said:


> Can the "time out" for logging you OFF ASF be increased, no idea what it currently is, seems too short if you want to explore elsewhere (not within ASF) and come back?




Check the box that says 'Remember Me' when you log in and you will never be timed out. 

This will keep you logged into ASF until you manually log out.

Wow! This is a really old thread.


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## pepperoni

Joe Blow said:


> Don't be afraid to start a thread! I want this board to get moving!
> 
> Exchanging information is the best way to learn. Two heads are better than one after all!
> 
> Go ahead and start a thread - ask a question or tell us about your favourite stock. Or just start a thread even if you have a good joke to tell.
> 
> I want to get a real sense of community going here so post away. I want to hear what you have to say!




This is a great sentiment, but the best way to get things moving is to enforce forum rules esp with lurkers whose entire post count is picking for personal reasons and stalking!

In fairness though moderation of late has been top notch, spam posts (yech!) are as low as you can get on a forum, and you already have a vast "core" of friendly and incredibly knowledgable posters.

At this rate I would only expect ongoing success for this forum.


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## Joe Blow

I thought I would bump this very old thread to remind both those new to ASF and those who have been here for a while to please consider posting and getting more involved in the various discussions.

The amount of posts per day has been a little lower than average lately and I am hoping that this reminder might stimulate some additional posting and get some of the discussions more active.

I'm a little concerned that some members may be reluctant to post, and I will be making a concerted effort to encourage a more friendly and constructive atmosphere.

The main areas that I will be focusing on are:

1. There is a very small minority of members here at ASF who feel that it is OK to deliberately antagonise and personally attack and insult other members of this community. I will be doing everything I can to weed these people out, as they only serve to divide the ASF community and drive other members away. Nobody likes unnecessary conflict and unpleasantness.

2. There has been criticism in the past that some threads can become too combative and nasty rather than constructive, and I would like to see that change. A constructive atmosphere encourages others to contribute and the best threads here at ASF have been the ones where people have been sharing ideas and methods in a friendly, positive way.

If you are reluctant to post for some reason, please fee free to let me know why by posting in this thread and I will do my best to address your concerns. Alternatively, contact me by PM if you would prefer to remain anonymous.

When the level of posting decreases too much, it's often hard to get it moving again. The lack of activity means that many people visit less frequently and things tend to stagnate, causing the level of posting to languish even further.

So, as the thread title says, please don't be afraid to post! ASF is always a much more enjoyable place to be when it's active and the discussions are friendly and constructive.


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## Julia

> So, as the thread title says, please don't be afraid to post! ASF is always a much more enjoyable place to be when it's active and the discussions are friendly and constructive.



+1.  There are many interesting and informed members here who make great contributions, but oh so rarely.
If you could join in more often, it would be really appreciated.


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## pavilion103

I have been an active member mainly in the futures and VSA threads. 

My posting has been a little down recently as I don't feel that there are many who continue to generate the discussion. 

As much as I enjoy posting charts and doing analysis, although there may be silent viewers reading, what I gain most from ASF is discussion. I feel that this has been lacking. People have expressed interest and enjoyment in the content, however without more discussion it can just become a glorified blog. 

The areas listed above are the ones of most interest to me. The return of Tech/a to the VSA thread has helped.


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## Joe Blow

pavilion103 said:


> I have been an active member mainly in the futures and VSA threads.
> 
> My posting has been a little down recently as I don't feel that there are many who continue to generate the discussion.
> iting.
> As much as I enjoy posting charts and doing analysis, although there may be silent viewers reading, what I gain most from ASF is discussion. I feel that this has been lacking. People have expressed interest and enjoyment in the content, however without more discussion it can just become a glorified blog.
> 
> The areas listed above are the ones of most interest to me. The return of Tech/a to the VSA thread has helped.




Pav, forums are all about momentum. I know sometimes it's easy to get discouraged, but the secret is just to keep posting. Eventually, others *will* join in, and then it's relatively easy for a discussion to pick up pace and evolve into something much more dynamic and exciting.

That's the reason I decided to bump this ten year old thread. I wanted to encourage those who are watching from the sidelines to get involved and join in the discussions.

Momentum builds on momentum and increased posting will eventually result in increased participation. It's only a matter of time.


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## Value Collector

Joe Blow said:


> Pav, forums are all about momentum. I know sometimes it's easy to get discouraged, but the secret is just to keep posting. Eventually, others *will* join in, and then it's relatively easy for a discussion to pick up pace and evolve into something much more dynamic and exciting.
> 
> .




Maybe add a "like" button to posts, That way if someone is contributing regularly and people are enjoying the thread they will get feedback in the form of likes, that may encourage them to continue posting. 

Otherwise an author in a thread may get discouraged that he has no readers because no one comments, when in reality there may be a bunch of people reading posts and enjoying the content.

I know I have read lots of posts that I have enjoyed, and because I am used to facebook I look for a like button, but unfortunately there isn't one.


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## pavilion103

Value Collector said:


> Maybe add a "like" button to posts, That way if someone is contributing regularly and people are enjoying the thread they will get feedback in the form of likes, that may encourage them to continue posting.
> 
> Otherwise an author in a thread may get discouraged that he has no readers because no one comments, when in reality there may be a bunch of people reading posts and enjoying the content.
> 
> I know I have read lots of posts that I have enjoyed, and because I am used to facebook I look for a like button, but unfortunately there isn't one.




It's not a bad idea in terms of a feedback mechanism.


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## Joe Blow

Value Collector said:


> Maybe add a "like" button to posts, That way if someone is contributing regularly and people are enjoying the thread they will get feedback in the form of likes, that may encourage them to continue posting.
> 
> Otherwise an author in a thread may get discouraged that he has no readers because no one comments, when in reality there may be a bunch of people reading posts and enjoying the content.
> 
> I know I have read lots of posts that I have enjoyed, and because I am used to facebook I look for a like button, but unfortunately there isn't one.




This will definitely be happening this year. I am currently planning a minor re-work of the ASF design and functionality. No major changes, but a number of minor alterations that, amongst other things, will include the ability to share more content on Facebook and other social media.


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## DocK

Value Collector said:


> Maybe add a "like" button to posts, That way if someone is contributing regularly and people are enjoying the thread they will get feedback in the form of likes, that may encourage them to continue posting.
> 
> Otherwise an author in a thread may get discouraged that he has no readers because no one comments, when in reality there may be a bunch of people reading posts and enjoying the content.
> 
> I know I have read lots of posts that I have enjoyed, and because I am used to facebook I look for a like button, but unfortunately there isn't one.




+1  This, and the addition of a "dislike button", would be welcome additions for me.  I also often would like to show my approval or agreement with a post, but think simply quoting it and adding +1 is a waste of space.  Perhaps more to the point though is my reluctance to post an alternative view to those posters who are known to take poorly any criticism, real, implied or imagined.  I've often started to post, and then thought better of it when I considered the never-ending arguments and requests to justify my view etc that would probably ensue, especially by some regular posters who often take every comment that doesn't coincide with their point of view as a personal attack.  This is, of course, most common in the general chat threads.

So far as the stock threads are concerned, I've often turned to ASF to see what the general opinion of a company may be, only to find the most recent post on it to be months or years old.  As a relative novice in trading/investing I'm loathe to be the one to ask what may be interpreted as a stoopid question - and I will try to overcome my fear of embarrassment in this regard.


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## KnowThePast

Value Collector said:


> Maybe add a "like" button to posts, That way if someone is contributing regularly and people are enjoying the thread they will get feedback in the form of likes, that may encourage them to continue posting.
> 
> Otherwise an author in a thread may get discouraged that he has no readers because no one comments, when in reality there may be a bunch of people reading posts and enjoying the content.
> 
> I know I have read lots of posts that I have enjoyed, and because I am used to facebook I look for a like button, but unfortunately there isn't one.




An excellent idea, I would love to see this feature as well.


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## Julia

DocK said:


> +1  This, and the addition of a "dislike button", would be welcome additions for me.  I also often would like to show my approval or agreement with a post, but think simply quoting it and adding +1 is a waste of space.



Doesn't it simply convey the same message/appreciation as a Like button?  That's certainly how I see it.



> Perhaps more to the point though is my reluctance to post an alternative view to those posters who are known to take poorly any criticism, real, implied or imagined.  I've often started to post, and then thought better of it when I considered the never-ending arguments and requests to justify my view etc that would probably ensue, especially by some regular posters who often take every comment that doesn't coincide with their point of view as a personal attack.



DocK, perhaps I've missed some of your posts but my impression is that you have often received considerable appreciation for your remarks which are invariably sensible and well considered.  Without such input existing regular contributors will simply lose heart and go elsewhere.  Yes, perhaps simpler to just avoid potential ramifications of any comment, but a shame.  Discussion and debate is interesting and healthy.  Often forces us to clarify or adjust our own established views.  Just my thoughts, of course.

I'd love to see some more general comments from e.g. Ves and Craft, both of whom have thoughtful views always.


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## burglar

Julia said:


> ... invariably sensible and well considered ...



I concur that DocK does good posts.
I also enjoy posts by Smurf and pixel!!


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## Joe Blow

DocK said:


> +1  This, and the addition of a "dislike button", would be welcome additions for me.  I also often would like to show my approval or agreement with a post, but think simply quoting it and adding +1 is a waste of space.  Perhaps more to the point though is my reluctance to post an alternative view to those posters who are known to take poorly any criticism, real, implied or imagined.  I've often started to post, and then thought better of it when I considered the never-ending arguments and requests to justify my view etc that would probably ensue, especially by some regular posters who often take every comment that doesn't coincide with their point of view as a personal attack.  This is, of course, most common in the general chat threads.




Hi Doc, many thanks for your feedback!

It's true that some people take criticism very badly. However, on this particular point I think there are faults on both sides. Conversely, some people offer their criticism in a very combative and attacking way.

What I would like to see more of is constructive criticism. I think criticism that is offered in a positive, encouraging way is more likely to be better received than criticism that takes the form of an attack or personal slight.

I'm not accusing anyone of either, just pointing out that for every time I've seen someone take criticism badly, I've also seen it offered poorly. People respond much better to encouragement than a perceived attack, and I think that there is room for improvement both in the offering and the accepting of criticism.



DocK said:


> So far as the stock threads are concerned, I've often turned to ASF to see what the general opinion of a company may be, only to find the most recent post on it to be months or years old.  As a relative novice in trading/investing I'm loathe to be the one to ask what may be interpreted as a stoopid question - and I will try to overcome my fear of embarrassment in this regard.




I agree that this is a problem, and I have done everything in my power to encourage more posting on stocks and it is very frustrating that I can't seem to motivate people to update more stock threads with information, announcements or analysis. Sadly, some of our best posters on stocks such as piggybank and springhill seem to have all but given up, making the situation even worse.

I cannot emphasize enough that momentum and increased activity is vital to keeping a forum dynamic and active. More posting leads to more posting and less posting leads to less posting. After ten years of being a forum administrator that is one phenomenon that I have observed time and time again.

Almost everyone has stocks that they follow. If there is an interesting development such as an important announcement, it only takes a couple of minutes to post a few sentences about it. This often encourages further posts and sometimes an extended discussion.

All I can do is to urge people to keep posting in stock threads. If everyone here let others know what is happening to stocks they follow we would have dozens of stock threads updated every day, and much more discussion. If we are going to turn things around everyone needs to pitch in and make an effort to add posts on a regular basis to the threads of stocks on their watchlist. 

This could change overnight if everyone decided to make a concerted effort to increase their posting in stock threads.


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## springhill

Joe Blow said:


> Sadly, some of our best posters on stocks such as piggybank and springhill seem to have all but given up, making the situation even worse.




Haven't given up Joe, as some would know I have been involved in a major ongoing battle to save my sector of the food production industry from collapse - which is now entering it's 3rd year.
As part of this, I am working my full time job and filling 3 voluntary roles within industry, leaving precious little time for my wife and newborn, much less my hobbies in life ie, stock analysis.

The long and short of it is that the battle will be over one way or another within the next couple of months.

If I fail in our objective I may have more time than I know what to do with other than contribute to ASF!

I hope to be back posting sooner rather than later.

To those indecisive as to whether their post matters or not, we all started with zero posts. It is not just those that post everyday that make ASF what it is - it is all contributors whether they be new, intermediate or rusted on devotees.


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## Tyler Durden

DocK said:


> +1  This, and the addition of a "dislike button", would be welcome additions for me.




I support the idea of a 'like' button, it shows support for the author of a post without any unnecessary posts. However, I would be against the idea of a 'dislike' button. Hotcopper used to have a system where you could upvote or downvote a post, and it facilitated a very hostile environment. Now that they have recently changed to an upvote system without the option to downvote, it seems that the environment is a lot less hostile.


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## Vixs

I feel like adding 'upvotes', while being an easy way of showing agreement or recognition for a post, could lead to hollower conversation as people go, "Yeah, that's close enough. It's not what I would have said, but it's close enough." and hit an upvote or like button. I think there may be a risk that you'd lose some engagement from the people that say, "While I largely agree, did you consider 'x'?".

That said, I know this forum like most must get a lot more visitors than contributors. Any way for lurkers and those who do wholeheartedly agree with something without wanting to post to show some activity on threads and posts could be helpful and liven things up. It's a bit disheartening to start a thread and see 100 views and 0 responses, but at least if someone can show recognition of the content rather than just flick to the next thread it might prompt some activity.


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## Julia

Tyler Durden said:


> However, I would be against the idea of a 'dislike' button. Hotcopper used to have a system where you could upvote or downvote a post, and it facilitated a very hostile environment. Now that they have recently changed to an upvote system without the option to downvote, it seems that the environment is a lot less hostile.



At the risk of offending DocK, +1.   The new HC format is much better. 



Vixs said:


> I feel like adding 'upvotes', while being an easy way of showing agreement or recognition for a post, could lead to hollower conversation as people go, "Yeah, that's close enough. It's not what I would have said, but it's close enough." and hit an upvote or like button. I think there may be a risk that you'd lose some engagement from the people that say, "While I largely agree, did you consider 'x'?".



Such a good point.  Whilst it's nice for people to passively agree with a post it's much better for them to progress the conversation by adding or querying a point.

Springhill, all the best with your industry battles.  Must be really hard going.  I look forward to your always interesting contributions when you're able to get back here.


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## Tyler Durden

Just thought of something.

A looooong time ago, I used to frequent a message board where they had a 'karma' system. You could get karma points for doing good things, like creating threads or receiving upvotes for your own posts. Karma was little green blocks underneath your name, and the more you had, the more credible you were deemed to be and with a better reputation.

It gave people some incentive to participate and come back to the forum, as everyone wanted to increase their own reputation. I guess you could say it was akin to an internet forum's version of reward points on a credit card.

The down side though is you might encourage 'too many' posts, which would lower the quality of posts in general.

It is noteworthy that once this particular forum removed the karma system, participation pretty much went down the drain.


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## qldfrog

Tyler Durden said:


> I support the idea of a 'like' button, it shows support for the author of a post without any unnecessary posts. However, I would be against the idea of a 'dislike' button. Hotcopper used to have a system where you could upvote or downvote a post, and it facilitated a very hostile environment. Now that they have recently changed to an upvote system without the option to downvote, it seems that the environment is a lot less hostile.




Same here  a dislike button IMHO would be a bad idea and be very negative: if you do not agree on a post at least explain why.
If it helps...


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## coolcup

Tyler Durden said:


> Just thought of something.
> 
> A looooong time ago, I used to frequent a message board where they had a 'karma' system. You could get karma points for doing good things, like creating threads or receiving upvotes for your own posts. Karma was little green blocks underneath your name, and the more you had, the more credible you were deemed to be and with a better reputation.
> 
> It gave people some incentive to participate and come back to the forum, as everyone wanted to increase their own reputation. I guess you could say it was akin to an internet forum's version of reward points on a credit card.
> 
> The down side though is you might encourage 'too many' posts, which would lower the quality of posts in general.
> 
> It is noteworthy that once this particular forum removed the karma system, participation pretty much went down the drain.




I have seen this as well on another forum and it works great, encouraging better quality posts and more of them.


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## DocK

Julia said:


> At the risk of offending DocK, +1.   The new HC format is much better.






qldfrog said:


> Same here  a dislike button IMHO would be a bad idea and be very negative: if you do not agree on a post at least explain why.
> If it helps...




No offence taken.  My reason for thinking of a "dislike" button was prompted by reading one of the more contentious threads where one contributor was doing their best to have a logical, reasoned discussion and was being met by vitriol and personal attacks by another poster.  I would have liked to lend my support to one, while letting the other know that the tone of their posts was unwelcome - without actually buying into a thread that I had not been involved in, and without bringing down a torrent of abuse upon myself for interfering.  Perhaps this makes me a bit of a coward, but to be frank the expectation of being "virtually harangued" does quite often make me wonder "why bother - I really don't need this type of feedback in my life, why invite it?"  I wondered if a poster who was being quite disagreeable on a personal level (not simply disagreeing politely/respectfully with another) received several "dislikes" if that may get the message across to them that they'd gone too far?  Perhaps a "Bad Karma" button ??

Sadly, a post I made on a stock thread last week has gone unanswered, and another two companies I looked at this morning also had posts that had not been responded to for some time - BXB & ICQ.  It's getting to the point where ASF is dominated by general chat (which is interesting and I'm in favour of it remaining), and lacking on the actual stock discussion.  It would be lovely to be able to get both on the one forum.  Keep trying Joe!


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## Julia

DocK said:


> My reason for thinking of a "dislike" button was prompted by reading one of the more contentious threads where one contributor was doing their best to have a logical, reasoned discussion and was being met by vitriol and personal attacks by another poster.  I would have liked to lend my support to one, while letting the other know that the tone of their posts was unwelcome - without actually buying into a thread that I had not been involved in, and without bringing down a torrent of abuse upon myself for interfering.  Perhaps this makes me a bit of a coward, but to be frank the expectation of being "virtually harangued" does quite often make me wonder "why bother - I really don't need this type of feedback in my life, why invite it?"  I wondered if a poster who was being quite disagreeable on a personal level (not simply disagreeing politely/respectfully with another) received several "dislikes" if that may get the message across to them that they'd gone too far?



Isn't it possible to compliment the person in this instance who is maintaining the sensible posting style, thus making it clear you don't like the aggression displayed by the sparring partner?   On 'interfering', it's a forum, there for people to contribute their responses where they want to.  The likelihood of then incurring some  negative feedback surely shouldn't be a deterrent to expressing a view?

As I said earlier, I've not observed any of your posts receiving negative feedback, so I'm a bit puzzled about why you'd anticipate this.   I guess few people are insensitive to nastily expressed criticism, but it's fairly rare here except for a couple of serial offenders.

I know what you mean, however.  Some years ago I recall complimenting you on something, an absolutely genuine attempt of recognition over a particular issue, only to be sharply admonished for being patronising.
I was very taken aback, but there you go.  Often criticism can occur as a result of someone's interpretation of a well meant remark.  It's one of the very real problems in non-visual, non-tone of voice/facial expression that's part of internet communication.

Some ratings systems seem really silly to me.  One forum has icons denoting 'Top Posters'.  These are apparently the people who have made the greatest number of posts.  Nothing to do with the quality of the posts at all.  Frequently they're full of political partisanship and insults towards those who are disciples of the opposite side of politics.

ASF used to have Junior and Senior members, from memory also according to number of posts.  Such a good thing to have abandoned that for the same reason.

Then in any sort of rating system I suppose those ratings are going to be totally subjective.  What one poster 100% supports, another will decry.  Someone could make good quality, thoughtful posts, but if they are not in sympathy with the predominant political/philosophical ethos of that forum, they probably won't receive the recognition they deserve.



> Sadly, a post I made on a stock thread last week has gone unanswered, and another two companies I looked at this morning also had posts that had not been responded to for some time - BXB & ICQ.



With over 2000 companies listed on the ASX, I suppose the chance of someone else on a relatively small forum such as ASF following any particular company (except for some speccie gone wild etc) is not great.

So many interesting, thoughtful posters are no longer here, some because they just got busy with other things, but many who found the lack of stimulation because of the same few people regularly posting just not enough to keep them.   So if people who just think about replying to someone's remarks, then just can't be bothered, ASF will continue to bleed people.  Meantime, Joe's costs in providing this environment for us remain.


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## Joe Blow

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*

Folks, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.

Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.

Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?


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## qldfrog

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*

indeed Joe,
and while I am not involved in the discussed trading, I would just point that a jumbo being shot in the middle of the trading day has had a major effect:
I would really hesitate to draw any lesson as to following trend or not on such a day!
Unless yopu only trade on black swan days, or have an army of missiles waving/suicide bombers and hurricane/earthquake making soldiers at your order.
but that would be insider trading 
trying to light up the mood!!!


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## pavilion103

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Joe Blow said:


> Folks, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.
> 
> Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.
> 
> Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?




Joe, I have created this thread, put my neck on the line with live trades, spent hours of time providing in-depth analysis for the sake of beneficial conversation.

I am more than happy to agree to disagree with people. What I do not appreciate is blatent trolling, belittling myself and my trading methodology in a personal way. 

Maybe the ignore list is an option as you said.


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## Joe Blow

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



pavilion103 said:


> Joe, I have created this thread, put my neck on the line with live trades, spent hours of time providing in-depth analysis for the sake of beneficial conversation.
> 
> I am more than happy to agree to disagree with people. What I do not appreciate is blatent trolling, belittling myself and my trading methodology in a personal way.
> 
> Maybe the ignore list is an option as you said.




Pav, this is a great thread. It's an example of everything that is good about ASF; people coming together to further ideas and methodologies in a constructive way.

The only reason I jumped in here was to remind people that it doesn't have to get personal. It only does if you allow it. Always give others the benefit of the doubt, and resist the temptation to let the tone and level of debate deteriorate unnecessarily.

If that means using your ignore list then so be it.


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## tech/a

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Joe Blow said:


> Folks, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.
> 
> Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.
> 
> Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?




Ill answer this when I have time in your "Don't be afraid to post thread.''

Hard to believe I know but I have strong views on this and forums in general.


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## notting

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Joe Blow said:


> Folks, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.
> 
> Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.
> 
> Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?




I'll help you with that.

It's a combination of laziness and impatience.

It's easier to call someone 'a dick' than articulate exactly what it is you feel is stealing your thunder, causing you to lose face or pissing in your pool.  

Don't want to ignore anybody.  
How else would you know what they are saying about you if you cannot see it?  
The alter ego is very important and must be protected so one can remain feeling important, smart,  insightful and seen to be totally on top of it.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



tech/a said:


> Ill answer this when I have time in your "Don't be afraid to post thread.''
> 
> Hard to believe I know but I have strong views on this and forums in general.




I'll be very interested to read your views tech, as you have been on both sides of this debate many times. You have started threads where others have openly criticised your views and methods, occasionally causing you to abandon the thread. Conversely, you have also never been afraid to call a spade a spade in threads that others have started, always expressing your views in no uncertain terms and without apology.

Given your long posting history here at ASF, I'm curious about where you think the line should be drawn.

To keep this thread on topic, I'll move most of these posts to the "Don't be afraid to post!" thread after tech posts over there.


----------



## barney

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Joe Blow said:


> Folks, for the life of me, *I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks*, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.
> 
> Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.
> 
> Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?





One word Joe,  Ego.

The human Ego is often very unattractive!


----------



## pavilion103

barney said:


> One word Joe,  Ego.  The human Ego is often very unattractive!




Haha I like that


----------



## Caveroute

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Joe Blow said:


> Folks, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people cannot disagree in good faith and still engage in a constructive discussion without personal attacks, accusations and people announcing they are leaving ASF for good.
> 
> Even if two people can't find any common ground, it is still easy to add someone to your ignore list and move on.
> 
> Surely if we treat each other with a basic level of courtesy and respect at all times this sort of thing can be avoided?




The psychology aspect is interesting, more so than the content. 

What do we have:

- intraday == technical only
- a swag of practitioners all adhering to different methodologies
- the religious zealots who cannot understand how any methodology other than their's has a chance
- the self appointed champions, offering their Ã¡dvice' 
- the concentration on live and $'s won as opposed to good entries and good trade management - nothing on here is live - ever. 
- needy personalities who demand attention
- the wanabees, that are being pulled every which way

Add these together and you have what you have, well your looking at it. 

Zero educational benefit, stress overload, more and more grandstanding. 

When compared to other forums where the commentary is focused on a particular methodology, and everybody is pulling the same way,  the bulk of the analysis shown on here is lets say, less focused. 

And who in their right mind would want to comment here and risk being dragged into a **** fight - why would you bother, it's just a distraction and stress++. would needs it, well clearly some people do.  

Just my opinion, don't get upset now.


----------



## Lamb

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Caveroute said:


> The psychology aspect is interesting, more so than the content.
> 
> Zero educational benefit, stress overload, more and more grandstanding.




I agree it's very interesting.

It remains that one person will make money using Tom Williams' VSA setups, and another person will make money fading the setups it offers. Now multiply this by every combination of indicator and method out there--it's the same deal; one will take the setup, and another will fade it. So who is right?..They both are, and at the same time who gives a ****. There are a glut of ways to make money from the market, but only one right mindset. 

Websites and threads like this, whether initially intended or not, serve to cultivate the right mindset in those susceptible to it. Espousing with vigor the system/indicator/method, or your spin on it, is territoriality. In this context, the motives behind posturing are blatantly transparent--and, at worst, it serves to miss the point entirely.


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



Caveroute said:


> - intraday == technical only
> - a swag of practitioners all adhering to different methodologies
> - the religious zealots who cannot understand how any methodology other than their's has a chance
> - the self appointed champions, offering their Ã¡dvice'
> - the concentration on live and $'s won as opposed to good entries and good trade management - nothing on here is live - ever.
> - needy personalities who demand attention
> - the wanabees, that are being pulled every which way
> 
> Add these together and you have what you have, well your looking at it.
> 
> Zero educational benefit, stress overload, more and more grandstanding.



Ah but that is pure individual perception. Everyone can be learned from but they may not be serving your interest in what they have to say. Some people are sensitive while others can take criticism with a grain of salt.  It can be thankless sharing knowledge on forums as people want to read only which is fair enough. I respond to anyone who's posts are directed at me. It is acknowledgement of the time someone has given.


----------



## IFocus

*Re: The transition to Futures trading*



pavilion103 said:


> Joe, I have created this thread, put my neck on the line with live trades, spent hours of time providing in-depth analysis for the sake of beneficial conversation.
> 
> I am more than happy to agree to disagree with people. What I do not appreciate is blatent trolling, belittling myself and my trading methodology in a personal way.
> 
> Maybe the ignore list is an option as you said.




Your thread is very good Pav and you are one of the best examples of why people should SIM (I was never going to say this on your thread to avoid a hijack)and your commentary 1st rate.

Unfortunately some turn up to have p1$$ing contests and as mentioned egos run amok.

The market beats us all up as we ride the roller coaster of profit / losses we cannot measure ourselves against this or let it dictate our moods any more than measure our selves from some one else's opinion typed onto a screen.

I know easier said than done, keep up the posting as I said your thread is very good.


----------



## cynic

Caveroute said:


> ...
> Just my opinion, don't get upset now.



Who gave you permission to have your own opinion?

Unfortunately I must confess to having a very big ego and not always exercising an appropriate level of restraint in my postings. However, the sharing of diverse philosophical viewpoints with others, whether they be related to trading or other aspects of our lives can often arouse the ego. 

Much as I admire the diplomatic skills demonstrated by many on this forum, I regretfully don't happen to share their saintly patience. Provided that things aren't allowed to run too far amok, unrestrained egos can at times spark an increased activity level in threads which can be recognisably beneficial to the health of the debate.


----------



## barney

cynic said:


> Who gave you permission to have your own opinion?
> 
> Unfortunately *I must confess to having a very big ego and not always exercising an appropriate level of restraint *in my postings. However, the sharing of diverse philosophical viewpoints with others, whether they be related to trading or other aspects of our lives can often arouse the ego.
> 
> Much as I admire the diplomatic skills demonstrated by many on this forum, I regretfully don't happen to share their saintly patience. Provided that things aren't allowed to run too far amok, *unrestrained egos can at times spark an increased activity level in threads *which can be recognisably beneficial to the health of the debate.




I have never noticed your posts being saturated with too much ego Cynic 

In my experience, the most valuable Egos are those which have been hard earned, yet are sparingly paraded in public


----------



## qldfrog

I have lately tried to post a bit more and be less passive; Did this add value, or am I just adding noise?
All opinions welcome


----------



## DeepState

qldfrog said:


> I have lately tried to post a bit more and be less passive; Did this add value, or am I just adding noise?
> All opinions welcome




  :thankyou:


----------



## Julia

qldfrog said:


> I have lately tried to post a bit more and be less passive; Did this add value, or am I just adding noise?
> All opinions welcome



Much appreciated, qldfrog.  Always find your remarks interesting.  Do keep it up.


----------



## pinkboy

If we all had the same opinion, the world would be boring!


pinkboy


----------



## Joe Blow

qldfrog said:


> I have lately tried to post a bit more and be less passive; Did this add value, or am I just adding noise?
> All opinions welcome




qldfrog, your contributions are both welcome and appreciated. They most certainly add value. Thank you for taking the time to post more.

The amount of posts per day has been on the increase in the last week or so, and it is gratifying to see. More posts inevitably leads to more discussion, which usually leads to more lurkers registering and contributing. Active communities are always more successful in attracting new members, so a big thank you to all those who have been posting more recently!


----------



## IFocus

qldfrog said:


> I have lately tried to post a bit more and be less passive; Did this add value, or am I just adding noise?
> All opinions welcome




Actually made the effort to open a thread and read it because I saw you posted..........thanks


----------



## Joe Blow

Joe Blow said:


> The amount of posts per day has been on the increase in the last week or so, and it is gratifying to see. More posts inevitably leads to more discussion, which usually leads to more lurkers registering and contributing. Active communities are always more successful in attracting new members, so a big thank you to all those who have been posting more recently!




A big thank you also to ASF's regular posters, for their efforts in generating interesting discussions and keeping the forums active.


----------



## burglar

IFocus said:


> Actually made the effort to open a thread and read it because I saw you posted..........thanks




Yes!! 
Sometimes, I open a thread and read it because I see who has posted.
Other times, it is the topic which catches my eye!

Occasionally, I get a surprise to the upside!!


----------



## Ves

The most disappointing part of this thread and most other threads on this forum is that there is _never_ a shortage of people lining up to have a crack at someone else.

The snark is well and truly in force. I considered using craft's "Tactless" thread to highlight some of the snark on this forum,  but realised that it's so disproportionate that it's a massive waste of (my) time.

Frankly,  I have pretty much had enough. I've bitten my tongue for so long there's nothing left but blood.

If you want a forum left, and trust me, people have and will leave,  for ****s sake, be nicer to each other.


----------



## pinkboy

Ves said:


> The most disappointing part of this thread and most other threads on this forum is that there is _never_ a shortage of people lining up to have a crack at someone else.
> 
> The snark is well and truly in force. I considered using craft's "Tactless" thread to highlight some of the snark on this forum,  but realised that it's so disproportionate that it's a massive waste of (my) time.
> 
> Frankly,  I have pretty much had enough. I've bitten my tongue for so long there's nothing left but blood.
> 
> If you want a forum left, and trust me, people have and will leave,  for ****s sake, be nicer to each other.




You're absolutely right!  People who spruik their gambling habit, lie about their qualifications, and chastise people for being emotionally attached to money only to be so himself should be the forefront poster pin-up boys of the forum.

Block anyone you dont like, only read the threads and posts you have an interest in, and for fu<k$ sake dont swear if you are trying to make a point.


pinkboy


----------



## Faramir

It is easy to say thank you.


----------



## Ves

pinkboy said:
			
		

> Block anyone you dont like, only read the threads and posts you have an interest in, and for fu<k$ sake dont swear if you are trying to make a point.



I apologise for subjecting you to a curse word.  

I don't have a problem with any one in particular.  What I do have a problem with is pointless snark that more often and not appears where there is really no need for it.  Ignoring it or living in a bubble of my own as if the problem doesn't exist won't make it go away. 

My greatest sadness in terms of society is that everyone is capable of quality output,  but unfortunately it is much easier to criticise others and for instance use the anonymity of the internet to throw around as much harshness as you please   (the thread in question is now over 4 pages long - I feel aggravated that it really takes so many people to state the obvious in such scathing tones).  I mean it's now clear that they are putting down a person with a "gambling addiction"  and some unnamed "sickness".   There are nicer ways of dealing with the situation.  An eye for an eye doesn't usually solve any problems,  it just creates more.

My greatest concern is that _some_ of the people who have decried the declining quality and lack of pleasantness in the posts on this forum in the past are the same people who go out of their way to comment in those types of threads,  and offer little in the way of actual investment talk.

I would prefer that people were given the chance to actually communicate with each other,  than set up even more needless barriers  (ie. the ignore system) and scathing messages.


----------



## tech/a

Ves

If it wasn't for " Tollbridge Financial Services "
I'd agree with you.
He has more problems than gambling


----------



## pinkboy

Ves said:


> I apologise for subjecting you to a curse word.
> 
> Some of my staff have spent more of their adult life in jail than out  , so Im pretty sure Im immune to a swear word or 2.
> 
> I don't have a problem with any one in particular.  What I do have a problem with is pointless snark that more often and not appears where there is really no need for it.  Ignoring it or living in a bubble of my own as if the problem doesn't exist won't make it go away.
> 
> My greatest sadness in terms of society is that everyone is capable of quality output,  but unfortunately it is much easier to criticise others and for instance use the anonymity of the internet to throw around as much harshness as you please   (the thread in question is now over 4 pages long - I feel aggravated that it really takes so many people to state the obvious in such scathing tones).  I mean it's now clear that they are putting down a person with a "gambling addiction"  and some unnamed "sickness".   There are nicer ways of dealing with the situation.  An eye for an eye doesn't usually solve any problems,  it just creates more.
> 
> My greatest concern is that _some_ of the people who have decried the declining quality and lack of pleasantness in the posts on this forum in the past are the same people who go out of their way to comment in those types of threads,  and offer little in the way of actual investment talk.
> 
> 
> I would prefer that people were given the chance to actually communicate with each other,  than set up even more needless barriers  (ie. the ignore system) and scathing messages.




Ves, honestly....a quality post above, and in some ways I agree with you, but it aint a perfect world.  The thing with forums is, the mixture of people is so vast, that you will not please and satisfy all.  So many differing opinions, so many different experiences, different personalities - the list is endless, so you have to 'agree to disagree', and let some things run their course.  You cant control what you cant control....and a forum is certainly a place where controlled chaos is the normal.  If you stick to the rules, contribute, have some fun, and take a dig every so often (withing extreme moderation) - then that should be accepted as life.

The guy is dishing out as good as he gets, cant work but can play hard, imagines up qualifications for aceptance then apologises for lying.  Pretty manic if you ask me, and as explained above....just part of the parcel.  The world, as much as we want it to be...just isnt always nice.

Also, my name is not anonymous (just FYI), and just like in a forum in real life I _stick to the rules, contribute, have some fun, and take a dig every so often_.


pinkboy


----------



## pixel

I'm not afraid to post.
But sometimes I ask myself, why bother?

When it became possible to exclude those distracting "General Chat" threads, I thought that might help me find more of stock-specific topics to contribute to. Remember? These are the Aussie *STOCK* Forums?

But look at VXL: One entry, no reply.
"New Posts" still bring up 90% of general argy-bargy. And even when someone confesses to being a Bad Trader and asks for help, the first attempts at constructive answers get quickly clobbered by personality clashes, accusations of ego-tripping, and other negativity.

Why bother, indeed....


----------



## Wysiwyg

Ves said:


> My greatest sadness in terms of society is that everyone is capable of quality output



As much as this situation would be ideal, when dealing with mind, more so what is imprinted on mind, it isn't going to be that way unless every nasty thought is erased from the collective memory. The perpetuation of nasty thought (which can lead to nasty action) is evident every day in almost all walks of life. Passed from one person to the next, passed from one generation to the next, passed from one society to the next. You see, it has always been.  

P.S. If I ever come across nasty, it is not my nature and it is not with intent. I am calm by nature but I simply don't accept the garbage mouthed by prawn heads, cowards, two bob watches, bullies, nutters, sly types, cage rattlers, loose screws, hot heads, short fuse types, antagonists etc. etc.  

P.P.S. A thick skin, acceptance, understanding, calmness & humour (not taking what someone posts too hurtful) go along way toward 'handling' stuff in life. *If all else fails then ignorance is bliss.*  I use this method with some of the more serious cases I have to deal with.


----------



## galumay

pixel said:


> I'm not afraid to post.
> But sometimes I ask myself, why bother?
> 
> When it became possible to exclude those distracting "General Chat" threads, I thought that might help me find more of stock-specific topics to contribute to. Remember? These are the Aussie *STOCK* Forums?




I find excluding the general chat threads helps a lot, there is so much polemic and aggressive posting from extremists at the opposite end of the social and political spectrum from mine. I would leave ASF if I had to read them!!

The forum has been an incredible resource for me developing my skills as an investor and there are so many incredibly helpful and generous people in the stock forums.

PS. I had never heard of VXL! Not my kind of company so I wont comment in the thread, but i get your point.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> An eye for an eye doesn't usually solve any problems,  it just creates more.



Often right, but it's difficult to just turn away when being gratuitously attacked.  It's a healthy aspect of human nature to stick up for oneself, and I don't see why someone should not do so.



> I would prefer that people were given the chance to actually communicate with each other,  than set up even more needless barriers  (ie. the ignore system) and scathing messages.



Shouldn't that be the use of the PM system?  Rather than publicly attack someone with whom you disagree, why not send a PM asking for some clarification of what you perceive to be stated.  The typed word is an imperfect means of communication and often a simple misunderstanding is at the basis of much grief and angst.



pinkboy said:


> ..... it aint a perfect world.  The thing with forums is, the mixture of people is so vast, that you will not please and satisfy all.  So many differing opinions, so many different experiences, different personalities - the list is endless, so you have to 'agree to disagree', and let some things run their course.  You cant control what you cant control....and a forum is certainly a place where controlled chaos is the normal.  If you stick to the rules, contribute, have some fun, and take a dig every so often (withing extreme moderation) - then that should be accepted as life.



That makes much sense.  People are what they are.  If we all had similar outlooks, political and philosophical views, levels of ego etc, I suppose there would be no forum.  Disagreeing with a view doesn't have to be couched in the form of nasty personal attack.


----------



## Ves

Maybe I've failed in somewhat to communicate what I really wanted to say, but:

*You can always control how you react to any situation.*

I'm _not _ confused between the reality of idealism (or perfection) and pragmatism:  but _I do_ think that forums (and the world in general) would be a better place if people _tried_ to show qualities like empathy, respect, kindness, patience and showed the initiative to learn new things.  

I realise that people are not and never will be perfect.  But I do not think that that should be used as an excuse,   there is nothing stopping them from wanting to be so - whether or not they get there or not.

Communication breaks down instantly when one side wants to just be _heard_ and the other wants to have a discussion.   The two aims are completely different.

Personally,   I believe that blogs are better for those who want to be heard,  because they have exclusive control over the content,  and forums are better for those who want to learn and participate in discussions.

PS: pinkboy,  I believe that humour or by-play in jest is crucial to finding the fun side of life and making light of the situation,  but it is completely different from being scathing in your reply to someone's idea or comment!   (The area may be grey,  but a wise man will be able to _learn_ the difference and a good audience will laugh or smile,  and not frown or smirk).


----------



## Ves

Faramir said:


> It is easy to say thank you.




Missed this one!  Very important IMO.  Being thankful for things that you have,  and especially those that you do not have make a big difference in how you interact with the world.  

(And say thank you, especially for broccoli - thumbs up to those who get the reference )


----------



## Wysiwyg

Ves said:


> Maybe I've failed in somewhat to communicate what I really wanted to say, but:
> 
> *You can always control how you react to any situation.*



That is an interesting idea and a state to aspire. My research and experience reveals this is not true. From mild brain pops to killing people, the mind is involuntarily reactive to some degree.


----------



## burglar

Ves said:


> ... PS: pinkboy,  I believe that humour or by-play in jest is crucial to finding the fun side of life and making light of the situation ...






Ves said:


> ... (And say thank you, especially for broccoli - thumbs up to those who get the reference )




Cryptic !?

Pauline Hanson?


----------



## Wysiwyg

Wysiwyg said:


> That is an interesting idea and a state to aspire. My research and experience reveals this is not true. From mild brain pops to killing people, the mind is involuntarily reactive to some degree.




Example :- 

Kid A pushes kid B with a moderate strength hand thrust.

Reaction 1) Flight reaction - Kid B immediately cries and runs away
Reaction 2) Fight reaction - Kid B snots Kid A 
Reaction 3) Action - Kid B experiences the push and neither cries nor hits back but simply walks away

Back to my cell now. G'night and be brave and post.


----------



## Craton

Wysiwyg said:


> From mild brain pops to killing people, the mind is involuntarily reactive to some degree.



Isn't this the truth. Just human nature to do this whether we like it or not and very frustrating when it happens. Try as one might sometimes one says and does the very opposite to what one intends and for the life of me, can't work out why my dumb clunker body would want to do this. 

There was a time when I'd just let this slide, maybe I was too shy, embarrassed or egotistical but as I've grown older I immediately attempt to make amends even at the detriment of soundly or looking like a fool. So what?
At least I feel better about myself and the more I do that, the less I seem to stuff up. Freudian slips notwithstanding.

A quick comment re. the General Chat thread. I agree it can be a distraction as there is a lot of tick for tack and to-ing and fro-ing going on, however I treat it more as a broad news service and I must say, there are some real gems of info therein. Agreed that not venturing into that place can be a real blessing at times. 

On the thread topic and as a forum sponsor and admin elsewhere, there's the old 80/20 rule. 80% lurk and rarely if ever post. The bulk of the posts came from the most active 20%.

Then there's life outside of the internet/forums etc, I always go dark whenever work gets in the way or my partner and I head off for some R and R on the motorbike but being afraid to post. What's there to be scared of?
Only one's ego and sense of self importance. 

Now I'm off to look at pixel's VXL


----------



## craft

Wysiwyg said:


> Example :-
> 
> Kid A pushes kid B with a moderate strength hand thrust.
> 
> Reaction 1) Flight reaction - Kid B immediately cries and runs away
> Reaction 2) Fight reaction - Kid B snots Kid A
> Reaction 3) Action - Kid B experiences the push and neither cries nor hits back but simply walks away
> 
> Back to my cell now. G'night and be brave and post.





Thanks Wysiwyg - your post gives me the basis for hopefully explaining *my* thought on posting on ASF.

I am afraid to continue posting.  ASF is too combative for me and my natural inclination is Reaction 2 above. A part of me that I don't particularly like.  

I prefer reaction 3 but personally to achieve that I need to tackle it with total commitment, ie Totally walk away. To that end Joe has kindly agreed to disable my account so that I cannot return to posting and get caught up in a cycle of returning to reaction 2 despite my best intentions when recommencing to post after each self imposed break.

People will no doubt see the weakness in my actions - but I don't think I'm unique in finding the best solution to a combative environment is total isolation from it. Perhaps that's worth considering if you want the number of posters on ASF to grow.

So as my account is to be disabled and this will be my last post (really this time). I would like to finish by thanking those that I have had constructive dialogue with and apologising to those that I have not.

Some people here have really touched my life and given me extraordinary insights; I would thank you all by name except for fear of missing somebody – but you guys know who you are.

Happy Journeys.

Good Bye


----------



## galumay

craft said:


> So as my account is to be disabled and this will be my last post (really this time). I would like to finish by thanking those that I have had constructive dialogue with and apologising to those that I have not.
> 
> Some people here have really touched my life and given me extraordinary insights; I would thank you all by name except for fear of missing somebody – but you guys know who you are.
> 
> Happy Journeys.
> 
> Good Bye




****, there goes one of the posters I really have learnt a lot from over time - I must be blind too, because I never saw that side of Craft that has caused him to leave us.


----------



## nulla nulla

Ves said:


> Missed this one!  Very important IMO.  Being thankful for things that you have,  and especially those that you do not have make a big difference in how you interact with the world.
> 
> (And say thank you, especially for broccoli - thumbs up to those who get the reference )




I would not consider myself a close friend of broccoli although we do dine together regularly. Broccoli is much maligned and my good wife is quite supportive of broccoli. Apparently broccoli has powers beneficial for suffers of arthritis. However I have arthritis and I'm not convinced that broccoli has helped me.  



craft said:


> Thanks Wysiwyg - your post gives me the basis for hopefully explaining *my* thought on posting on ASF.
> 
> I am afraid to continue posting.  ASF is too combative for me and my natural inclination is Reaction 2 above. A part of me that I don't particularly like.
> 
> I prefer reaction 3 but personally to achieve that I need to tackle it with total commitment, ie Totally walk away. To that end Joe has kindly agreed to disable my account so that I cannot return to posting and get caught up in a cycle of returning to reaction 2 despite my best intentions when recommencing to post after each self imposed break.
> 
> People will no doubt see the weakness in my actions - but I don't think I'm unique in finding the best solution to a combative environment is total isolation from it. Perhaps that's worth considering if you want the number of posters on ASF to grow.
> 
> So as my account is to be disabled and this will be my last post (really this time). I would like to finish by thanking those that I have had constructive dialogue with and apologising to those that I have not.
> 
> Some people here have really touched my life and given me extraordinary insights; I would thank you all by name except for fear of missing somebody – but you guys know who you are.
> 
> Happy Journeys.
> 
> Good Bye




Craft
I hope Joe keeps the option open to reinstate your posting powers for such time, as may come, when you reconsider and wish to post again.
best wishes
nulla


----------



## barney

craft said:


> So as my account is to be disabled and this will be my last post (really this time). I would like to finish by thanking those that I have had constructive dialogue with and apologising to those that I have not.
> 
> Some people here have really touched my life and given me extraordinary insights; I would thank you all by name except for fear of missing somebody – but you guys know who you are.
> 
> Happy Journeys.
> 
> Good Bye




Hey Craft .......  Most here will be very disappointed in losing your input (I'm sure even those you have the occasional stoush with will miss you). 

I assume there is nothing which would make you reconsider?  If you do go, all the best.  You could always come back in the future, maybe under a different name to start afresh?

Cheers and good luck either way.


----------



## Faramir

Hi Joe

Can you make this post sticky? "Present Value of Future Cash Flow"
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23385

Being a very slow reader, especially one who is easly side tracked, I would not like it if disappears after a while. It will take me a while to read. It has many links and I still need to read some of the articles, PDFs, etc. This is why it take a long time for me to read it. I do have it open on a second window but I need to allocate a big block of time to read it properly. I had to start again because I felt I did not understand the first 6 pages properly.

I never knew Craft, I never interacted with him. If I met him in person, not sure if I would like him, loathe him or love him. I will say this as the more inexperienced and newer member here. I definitely have a very high degree of respect for him. Others like Ves, McLoving plus others were fortunate enough to interact with him.

Being the position I am in (not just being new here and inexperienced) but not well off in life, I feel I should at least show and owe respect to everyone here. Especially those who have bent over backwads to provide valuable input to some of my questions.

If you can make that post sticky, I will be very grateful. I understand if you did not want to. I have not been on other forums. I can`t compare ASF to others. At least I feel this is the only one worth sticking to.

Craft will never read this, I hope he knows that there are many others who have not interacted with him, who have a very degree of respect for him. Thank you for all of your contributions.


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## Craton

Oh man! I'm so sorry to see you go too craft because that's one more person's valued point of view we have lost. In a sense too, the forum has failed you.

As mentioned before, I'm a forum sponsor and admin elsewhere on the web (since 2007) and I get these requests far too often. Of course, and I’m sure Joe does this too, the admins do their best to dissuade but in the end must comply. Although and please don’t take offence, there’s the odd few that we don’t mind seeing the back off. Still, it grieves to see people leave because I think and for whatever reason, that the member develops a very deep emotional connection to the forum. 

Perhaps it's a character flaw, perhaps it’s a failing of the admin/mods or worse still, machinations behind the scenes via PM’s (often the case) that do the damage. Whatever the reason, this emotional connection then becomes too great to cope or deal with and hence the reaction is to leave. Sad, really sad that this occurs. Also again, there’s a sense that the forum has failed somehow to embrace and nurture the despondent.

On a personal note, being an admin and sponsor to boot has allowed me to develop a sense of perspective and depth of understanding that I’d never have thought possible. All simply because one cannot over react and timeout or ban a member if they, or I, don’t agree with a point of view or social expectations. Many times I’ve forced myself to count to ten, sleep on it, ignore it, let it slide, water of a ducks back all to find out later that my reaction was in fact, unjustified. Very humbling and so glad I didn’t make a mountain and a fool out of a mole hill.

Forums can and are a great source of information and entertainment, forums can also consume far too much of our RL time. One needs to put it all into perspective and find the balance, simply really.

Again, sorry to see you go craft. I too valued your contributions.


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## Julia

Wysiwyg said:


> Example :-
> 
> Kid A pushes kid B with a moderate strength hand thrust.
> 
> Reaction 1) Flight reaction - Kid B immediately cries and runs away
> Reaction 2) Fight reaction - Kid B snots Kid A
> Reaction 3) Action - Kid B experiences the push and neither cries nor hits back but simply walks away



Possibly a fourth option:  instead of A pushing B at all, he calmly and politely explains to B why he feels annoyed or upset.  B considers A's objection.   Then they engage in a respectful discussion and either agree to disagree or come to an understanding of the reasons for each of their positions.

We cannot in reality expect kids to do that, but adults should be able to, rather than resorting to aggression.

We all have biases and carefully considered views that will have originated from our life experience.  Others will disagree with those views.   Such difference of view is what makes a forum interesting.  But when disagreement with a point expressed turns into a personal attack, it's hurtful and unnecessary.

All around us there seems to be hatred and viciousness.   It might sound a bit unrealistic, but I think in a sense it's contagious.  Social media seems full of bullying and pure nastiness.  Our politicians reveal themselves to be corrupt, promises are made and broken, people who should be acting in our best interests instead put their own gains ahead of that priority.

It's often hard to remember that amongst it all, most ordinary human beings are doing the best they can, often in the face of heartbreaking difficulty.  We here see one another only in the form of a nic and opinions posted about a particular subject.  We don't know anything (in most cases) about what else might be going on in their lives.  Have you, eg, just attacked someone who is already trying to cope with an autistic child, a demented parent, their own debilitating illness?

Imho there are two human traits that are much undervalued, kindness and unkindness.   It's easy to be either, the latter particularly on a forum where you can be anonymous.


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## Ves

Time for me to step aside for a while.   

I wish everyone all the best and I trust that the dialogue above gives a fresh perspective on what is important in communicating with others, and indeed, what makes for a happier life.

Cheers and I hope that we meet again soon.


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## Julia

All the best, Ves.   I value the discussions we've had which allowed the opportunity to heal misunderstandings and provide insights.   This exchange was largely what gave rise to comments I've made above.

Thanks very much for your many helpful comments in the SMSF threads.
Hope it won't be too long before you return.


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## Miner

*Re: ASF Site Performance*

Joe and the ASF team members

Instead of using a new thread I take the liberty to use this thread as my concern is related to ASF Site Performance and there is no IT involved on this.

I have restarted visiting ASF site since returning to Australia  after some good absence period. There are so many changes here. Many earlier posters have disappeared. Volume and frequency of threads have disproportionately reduced. It is catch 22 situation in today's internet era. On the other hand Hot Copper site which many of us probably never liked , has grown out proportionately. Not going to deiberate on this, probably with few moderators our revered Joe has been  managing single handedly. As a team member I am urging all of the ASF fans to join hands and concertedly lift the site performance. Sorry if I am making any evaluation here than to remain dumb face relying on 'she will be right mate'. 
This is an open ended question from me how to lift the performance of ASF. When  I look into new posts. Couple of years ago,  I could see  more than 100 new posts if not visited one day but now I get to see 15 to 20 new posts clicking the New Post Icon. One could argue the financial situation has changed. I am afraid no of stocks in ASX has only grown up. 

Without any fiduciary interest on ASF revenue, I do care for ASF site from where I learnt many things and some times members have coached me on few things - such as writing better posts, valuable knowledge share. 

I personally believe ASF still is a great site and it is still not too late to lift the volume of participants, posting (quality ones of course) which could drive more advertisers to sponsor the sites. At this moment it seems there are few sponsors with one advertisement site is predominant - attractive photos of girls seeking jobs in Gum Tree. I am not cynical but quality of those job advertisments are not always job advertisements . Sorry, do not want to get digress with main theme.

Apology in advance if my post is going to hurt any one and nothing personal here and I could be jolly well wrong on my observations. As a technocrat (not a chartist) miner I am ready to help if requires. 

If I am going out of my way to seek improvements on the site to increase quality and quantity of posts - please do not hesitate to issue me an imfraction !

Regards


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## Joe Blow

Hi Miner,

I have taken the liberty of moving your post over to this thread.

I agree with you that ASF could use more posts, especially in stock threads. On a number of occasions I have asked the ASF community to make a conscious effort to increase the amount of stock market related posts that they make, but irrespective of how often I mention it, it never seems to materialise.

Some people are turned off by the amount of posts in the General Chat forum. A number of long term members have stopped posting entirely because there is more discussion about religion and politics than stocks and investment/trading. It's sad, because we are slowly losing the very people who wish to chat about the stock market due to the overwhelming dominance of the General Chat forum at ASF.

Unfortunately, I can't make people post in stock threads. Every single day I wake up hoping that more people will post on stock market related topics, particularly threads on individual stocks. However, it seems that most people who visit ASF are not interested in discussing stocks, as odd as that may sound. This is an endless source of frustration to me because it turns off new visitors, many of whom decide that there just isn't enough stock chat here to justify registering and becoming a part of the community.

Things could turn around overnight. All it would take is for every ASF member to make just one post in a stock thread each day. The amount of posts per day would increase exponentially, and ASF would once again become an active stock market forum.

A very big thank you to all of those who do regularly post in stock threads. Without you, ASF would probably cease to exist entirely.


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## Julia

Thanks to Miner for being brave enough to express what  he has observed.  I think most of us long term members would echo what he says.


Joe Blow said:


> I agree with you that ASF could use more posts, especially in stock threads. On a number of occasions I have asked the ASF community to make a conscious effort to increase the amount of stock market related posts that they make, but irrespective of how often I mention it, it never seems to materialise.



It is what it is, Joe.  People get fed up with having their approach ridiculed, or simply ignored.  That is the right of other members.  Some people have been magnificent in their determined posting in the stock threads.
But if no one else is interested in these (often penny) stocks, then it's just reality that there will be minimal response.

Just as an example I only choose stocks from the top 100.  It seems few others do likewise.  So no point in my commenting on them to a non-existent audience.



> Some people are turned off by the amount of posts in the General Chat forum. A number of long term members have stopped posting entirely because there is more discussion about religion and politics than stocks and investment/trading. It's sad, because we are slowly losing the very people who wish to chat about the stock market due to the overwhelming dominance of the General Chat forum at ASF.



Why is this a problem?   There is a clear option for people logging on not to even see General Chat threads displayed.  I can't see that that is the cause of any problem in itself.



> Unfortunately, I can't make people post in stock threads. Every single day I wake up hoping that more people will post on stock market related topics, particularly threads on individual stocks. However, it seems that most people who visit ASF are not interested in discussing stocks, as odd as that may sound. This is an endless source of frustration to me because it turns off new visitors, many of whom decide that there just isn't enough stock chat here to justify registering and becoming a part of the community.



I don't believe it's peculiar to ASF to have a dominance of posts on general topics rather than specific stock threads.  We seem to be discussing the other very popular forum here, though apparently it's not on to mention its name.

They have dozens of general topics, new ones every day.  Momentum builds further momentum.  Moderation seems to be on the ball and out of line posts are quickly removed and the poster admonished.

The major difference I observe, fwiw, is that politically partisan posts and what would be considered racist here are tolerated over there.  I make no comment about whether that's good or bad.

There are still some very thoughtful and constructive posters on ASF, but compared to about five years ago I have to agree with Miner, far fewer than then.



> Things could turn around overnight. All it would take is for every ASF member to make just one post in a stock thread each day. The amount of posts per day would increase exponentially, and ASF would once again become an active stock market forum.



That might be right, Joe.  But it would have to outweigh such as moderators making sarcastic and unexplained criticisms of posters which they subsequently refuse to justify.
Imo this is the sort of thing which drives people away.

(And I'm absolutely not referring to the erstwhile role of CanOz here.)

If ASF is at risk of ceasing to exist because of lack of posting in stock threads, then surely it would be at even greater risk if no one posted in General threads either.


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## Joe Blow

Julia, I just hope things turn around. There is a lot of great content here and over the years ASF has become a great resource. It would be a shame for it all to just disappear one day because it lost its focus and people just slowly drifted away.

People expect stock discussion at a stock forum, and I think we're probably missing out on a lot of good members who otherwise would have registered and joined the community had there been some more of it. That being said, I'm not about to give up just yet. Ultimately the future of ASF is in the hands of the community itself. I just steer the ship as best I can, and hope that enough people care about ASF to pitch in and assist when it's needed. Right now we need more stock discussion, so if everyone can try and post a little more in stock threads I'd appreciate it a great deal. I'm sure many others would too.

On the topic of moderators, they are just human beings who have good and bad days like the rest of us. They all do the best they can with the time they have available, and I'm sure they are all more than happy to discuss any issues you may have via PM if you feel inclined to contact them about it.


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## galumay

Joe Blow said:


> Hi Miner,
> 
> I have taken the liberty of moving your post over to this thread.
> 
> I agree with you that ASF could use more posts, especially in stock threads. On a number of occasions I have asked the ASF community to make a conscious effort to increase the amount of stock market related posts that they make, but irrespective of how often I mention it, it never seems to materialise.




Its always a problem once a specialist forum opens up discussion to subjects outside the core purpose. 



> Some people are turned off by the amount of posts in the General Chat forum. A number of long term members have stopped posting entirely because there is more discussion about religion and politics than stocks and investment/trading. It's sad, because we are slowly losing the very people who wish to chat about the stock market due to the overwhelming dominance of the General Chat forum at ASF.




I dont know about that, I just filter all the general chat stuff out, from my perspective its overwhelmingly discussion from people who have a totally different world view to me, i dont want to read the offensive nonsense they post, I come to ASF to learn about investing and specific stocks and it remains a great resource for that.



> Unfortunately, I can't make people post in stock threads. Every single day I wake up hoping that more people will post on stock market related topics, particularly threads on individual stocks. However, it seems that most people who visit ASF are not interested in discussing stocks, as odd as that may sound. This is an endless source of frustration to me because it turns off new visitors, many of whom decide that there just isn't enough stock chat here to justify registering and becoming a part of the community.




I am not so sure of that, its better by miles than any of the alternatives I have looked at, there is still significant on topic discussion and I have learnt an enormous amount from the members of ASF who do concentrate on posting in the stock threads.

Dont be too hard on yourself, its a great forum and i dont know anywhere else that has the sort of discussion about specific companies.


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## Smurf1976

A few thoughts (in no particular order).

1. There is a definite trend away from share ownership in Australia. Comparing 2012 (latest data available) with 2004, direct share ownership has dropped from 44% to 34% of the adult population, and indirect share ownership has dropped from 32% to just 12%.

This is from an ASX study that's here: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...oaM--QjpEjls76A&bvm=bv.75097201,d.dGc&cad=rja

So if we assume that the vast majority of people reading or contributing to ASF would own at least one share in something, or at least be interested in investing, then the underlying base from which ASF attracts members is declining.

2. An "outsourcing mentality" is widespread across practically all fields these days and that presumably includes investing. Rather than becoming knowledgeable yourself, there's a trend to just paying someone else to do it. And if you're not going to learn yourself, well then you don't need an internet forum.

3. The rise of Facebook and other social media diverts time away from other things. There's still only 24 hours in the day. 

4. The existence of "forum of forums" that shares its' name with a brand of washing machine would likely be diverting at least some traffic away from a lot of other forums, especially for those seeking only basic knowledge and nothing detailed. That keeps the newbies away from places like ASF and directs them to invest in a "balanced" manged fund as the generic answer. 

5. Forums in general have become their own worst enemy with "use the search function before posting". Yep, I found it with a search. No need to post anything then or even join the forum.

6. Social acceptability of discussing financial matters seems to have changed. Pre-GFC it was almost "normal" to hear people boasting about their real estate, share or other profits. Greed was good, more was better and nobody really argued otherwise. Since that time it seems to have become almost a taboo subject to mention finance. Whilst ASF is an almost anonymous forum, I've only ever worked out the true identity of one member, I'd take a guess that if someone isn't comfortable discussing finance face to face then for many that will carry through to their willingness (or lack thereof) to discuss it online.

Just a few random thoughts.....


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## burglar

Smurf1976 said:


> ... Just a few random thoughts.....




I post too often ...
I post low content ...

Yes, I am afraid to post.

I spike those who really annoy me.
They don't seem to stay.
Maybe not a bad thing?
Perhaps they were not staying anyway!



Smurf1976 said:


> ...  I've only ever worked out the true identity of one member, ...




I don't mind the anonymity of hiding behind an avatar.
It allows a freedom to say what's really on one's mind.

I wouldn't mind the alternative, I would just post differently!


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## Craton

I'd like to echo Smurf1976's comments, sums it up quite well IMO.

Also and at a guess, the GFC would have played a really big role in turning people off equities and thus ppl seeked a more "traditionally secure" haven like property. Chasing the bigger bucks/quick returns is still a great Aussie pastime *tongue firmly planted in cheek*.

I wonder too if the peak within the baby boomers reaching retirement, have cashed out and are playing the grey nomad game in their Winnebago. So many of them on the roads nowadays and so too the resurgence in caravans.

Surely the above points to a reduction in participants. For me though, ASF is head and shoulders above HC (no, not a member there) and I'd rather a close knit community over a large rabble any day. Beside that, the depth and quality of stock discussion here is far superior, blatant spruiking/ramp ups are easier to spot as well. 

On the subject of the General Chat thread. Forums need Off Topic areas as life isn't just about one particular pursuit and besides, we all need some downtime eventually. I recently discovered the Jokes section, some seriously funny shyte in there, luv it!

ASF has been instrumental in helping me not only to learn more about equities, but rekindled my interest in our world that revolves so much around money, certainly has opened my eyes up to new possibilities. For that, I'm very thankful to Joe and all the ASF members. 

One more thing, I don't agree with Burglar in hiding behind anonymity as a means of posting differently, I do understand what Burgs means though. I've always been of the assumption that if one is true to oneself then it will come out in how one posts.


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## pixel

Some good points, smurf et al.
There may be fewer traders or investors around.
There may be fewer people prepared to share their views of particular stocks.
In peripheral chat and joke topics, we may find some attractive views presented by some.
*
But we are here because we have survived and are still trading; none of the above keeps us from adding content to the STOCK FORUMS.*

Just remember that, unless *you *add *your *opinion to someone's assessment of AUSSIE STOCKS or exposÃ© of their method, the time will come when you won't any longer be able to read those hilarious jokes, shake your head over an abundance of off-beat opinions aired in religious and political threads, or shed a tear over heart-warming Save-The-World posts.

I'm not putting those endless chats down - at least not completely. But they were not the reason why I signed up for this Forum; nor is it the reason why I fight passionately for its survival. I am registered with four Forums, including the washing machine one. IMHO, our ASF gets the nod because -

it's more topical than the "Forum of Forums",
the no-ramping policy is rigorously enforced, unlike you-know-where,
and just about everybody will concede defeat when a stock turns tail, rather than arguing up is infact down, as can be read abundantly in a third Forum.
I know it's unenforceable, but how about we all make a New Week's Resolution: 
*"I pledge to post at least as many and as informative posts about "my" shares or techniques, before adding one line to another topic."*


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## pinkboy

pixel said:


> Some good points, smurf et al.
> There may be fewer traders or investors around.
> There may be fewer people prepared to share their views of particular stocks.
> In peripheral chat and joke topics, we may find some attractive views presented by some.
> *
> But none of that keeps us from adding content to the STOCK FORUMS.*
> 
> Just remember that, unless *you *add *your *opinion to someone's assessment of AUSSIE STOCKS or expose of their method, the time will come when you won't any longer be able to read those hilarious jokes, shake your head over an abundance of off-beat opinions aired in religious and political threads, or shed a tear over heart-warming Save-The-World posts.
> 
> I'm not putting those endless chats down - at least not completely. But they were not the reason why I signed up for this Forum; nor is it the reason why I fight passionately for its survival. I am registered with four Forums, including the washing machine one. IMHO, our ASF gets the nod because -
> 
> it's more topical than the "Forum of Forums",
> the no-ramping policy is rigorously enforced, unlike you-know-where,
> and just about everybody will concede defeat when a stock turns tail, rather than arguing up is infact down, as can be read abundantly in a third Forum.
> I know it's unenforceable, but how about we all make a New Week's Resolution:
> *"I pledge to post at least as many and as informative posts about "my" shares or techniques, before adding one line to another topic."*




Great post Pixel.

I too thought last night that its about time I asked a few real questions on specific stocks, or at least comment on a stock, even if its completely left field.  Im not share savvy though, so whatever I say will be probably wrong, or off the track, but anyway.

Us thinner sniffing painters aren't a smart breed.


pinkboy


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## coolcup

Hi everyone,

I love ASF and the content. I think there may be a lack of "volume" in terms of number of posts, but I find the content to be generally of a very high quality, and I would prefer to read 10 quality posts than sift through 50 rubbish one liners (as tends to happen on other forums). I tend to post, if somewhat infrequently, as I think the quality of posting on this forum is generally very high and so I only add to the discussion if I feel it maintains or enhances that quality as opposed to just agreeing or adding for the sake of it.


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## Faramir

I have been part of this forum for the past six months. I am struggling to read many old posts. There are so many great ones. I cannot understand why we need hundreds and hundreds of new posts per day. Need time to catch up on my readings.

The other place is interesting at times but some people there just write things that are nothing more than wild guesses. I have not joined up on any other forums (excluding a motorike one which I never read.) I receive quality feedback here. I haven't been provide quality feedback here due to my lack of experience but I tried to ask some quality questions. It takes effort to post here. Life outside also gets busy. That is why I have been quiet sometimes.

I apologise if I 'ignore' your posts, I have read it and I think thinking about it. I just need to find time to respond appropriately. If I don't, it only means that I am quietly grateful.

Three of my best stock picks came directly from this forum.


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## Judd

pixel said:


> ..........But we are here because we have survived and *don't * trade; none of the above keeps us from adding content to the STOCK FORUMS............




Fixed - to reflect my situation and why I now rarely post.


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## Joe Blow

Thank you all for the feedback, and your words of support. It is very encouraging to know that ASF is both appreciated and beneficial to its members and visitors. 

It's true that the GFC took some of the wind out of ASF's sails. Traffic levels are down from what they were in 2007-2009 and have been stagnant, although stable, ever since. A lot of people walked away from the market post-GFC and haven't returned. The GFC also had the effect of switching the primary investment focus from the stock market to property. Although we do have a very active property thread, ASF is not a property forum, so those solely interested in property more than likely participate at a dedicated property forum. Eventually, however, this will swing back the other way and when it does I want ASF to be well positioned to take advantage of an increase in interest in financial markets.

My focus is on keeping ASF active and growing. That is my primary aim. Central to this goal is increasing the level of traffic and posting, especially in stock specific and other market related threads. Any assistance ASF members can offer is greatly appreciated. As I have recommended in the past, simply focus on those stocks that you keep in your watchlist, or that you currently hold. If there's an announcement or some price action worthy of comment, then just add a short post to the relevant thread to let others know about it. If you have some analysis to offer, even better. 

One thing I have noticed over the years is that just one post can generate a lot more discussion. It can also draw people's attention to stocks that they may not have been aware of, and perhaps also a trading or investment opportunity. Just as importantly, it keeps the stock threads active and those who arrive at ASF for the first time will have more incentive to register and participate. The more active a forum is, the more newcomers get drawn in to the various discussions and the more they explore the forums in depth. Inevitably this will lead to more members, more posting, and more discussion on a greater diversity of topics.

Just to clarify, I'm not against the General Chat forum at all. In fact I feel it is an essential part of ASF. It kept us relatively active after the GFC, broadens the scope, and gives the forums a depth and greater sense of community that it otherwise wouldn't have. It's nice to have an area where people can take their minds off the market, relax and discuss whatever topics take their interest. I just wish sometimes that issues could be discussed without so much conflict. The best threads at ASF are those where topics are discussed and debated in a constructive and civil way. They are more likely to stay on-topic and offer much more to those reading and participating in them.


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## Julia

Faramir said:


> I have been part of this forum for the past six months. I am struggling to read many old posts. There are so many great ones. I cannot understand why we need hundreds and hundreds of new posts per day. Need time to catch up on my readings.



Well, that's a situation peculiar to yourself and other people who haven't been here long, Faramir.  Others look for the stimulation of new content.

I don't think Joe or anyone else has suggested we need "hundreds and hundreds" of new posts per day, just perhaps for us - instead of just having a thought to ourselves about a stock we own or are considering buying - enter that in the form of a post which hopefully others might respond to.

I don't have any idea about the costs of running a forum, but I'd guess what can be charged for advertising will be at least in part dependent on number of members and number of posts per day, advertisements clicked on etc.
so I imagine anyone running a forum has to take such a practical point into consideration.

A long time ago, when ASF hadn't been going long, I recall putting up the suggestion that we could all pay a membership fee.   I don't recall a single person supporting the notion and there was considerable outrage at the suggestion.   Hence the need for advertising revenue.


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