# Religious leader condemns RAPE



## It's Snake Pliskin (26 October 2006)

Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader. 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 October 2006)

It's Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader.



Maybe he should be the first to be signed up for the "aussie set of values course" they were proposing - sheesh.  Youre right snake - disgusting.


----------



## Sean K (26 October 2006)

Anyone know the actual cultural reason for Arabic women to cover up their modesty? (It's an Arabian thing, not Islamic)


----------



## Julia (26 October 2006)

His remarks were thoroughly criticised by a female Muslim  leader of some sort on today's "Breakfast" programme on ABC Radio.  She said such views were entirely at odds with those of the Muslim community and she was completely outraged.  (She sounded it!).

This bloke has a habit of coming out with appalling statements.  The best thing Australia could do would be to send him back to wherever he came from.

Julia


----------



## juddy (26 October 2006)

"He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men."

How can intelligent people believe such tripe? Makes you wonder if these people use Iodised salt.


----------



## Happy (26 October 2006)

> From ABC, October 26, 2006. 8:50am (AEST)
> Al Hilaly spokesman plays down 'uncovered meat' comments
> 
> One of Australia's most senior Muslim clerics is being accused of saying some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress and their actions.
> ...





Muslim woman in above quote didn’t think that traditional dress was worn to avoid harassment.


----------



## Prospector (26 October 2006)

He certainly needs a one way ticket!

Juddy's comment is interesting though.....
"He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men."

Isn't that what Adam was told in the Garden of Eden, metaphorically in the guise of an apple......


----------



## Sean K (26 October 2006)

The reason women are devils sent by Satan is because men can't control themselves around them. We have this strange biological urge to want to have sex with them. This is an evolutionary thing to assist in the survival of the species.

To answer my own question I posted above, women were required to cover themselves in ancient Arabia to control mens behaviour towards them. 

Men are the issue, not women.


----------



## visual (26 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Anyone know the actual cultural reason for Arabic women to cover up their modesty? (It's an Arabian thing, not Islamic)




Kennas I think will answer your question,it came about as a fashion and cultural thing.

Regarding Q24:31, Muhammad Asad explains that Arabian women covered their heads prior to the advent of Islam in the seventh century C.E. The head covering (khimar) was worn as an ornament, hanging down loosely over the wearer’s back. In accordance with the fashion of that era, the upper part of a woman’s tunic had a wide opening in the front, which left her bosom partially exposed. Hence, the command is for the covering of the bosom as an act of modesty, and not for the wearing of the khimar or covering of the head. According to some other commentators, women wore the khimar to keep sand and dust out of their hair. Incidentally, men also wore turbans and traditional long gowns to cover themselves.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/women_in_islam/muslim_women_and_tradition.htm


----------



## Sean K (26 October 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Kennas I think will answer your question,it came about as a fashion and cultural thing.
> 
> Regarding Q24:31, Muhammad Asad explains that Arabian women covered their heads prior to the advent of Islam in the seventh century C.E. The head covering (khimar) was worn as an ornament, hanging down loosely over the wearer’s back. In accordance with the fashion of that era, the upper part of a woman’s tunic had a wide opening in the front, which left her bosom partially exposed. Hence, the command is for the covering of the bosom as an act of modesty, and not for the wearing of the khimar or covering of the head. According to some other commentators, women wore the khimar to keep sand and dust out of their hair. Incidentally, men also wore turbans and traditional long gowns to cover themselves.
> 
> http://www.irfi.org/articles/women_in_islam/muslim_women_and_tradition.htm




Thanks Vis.

I always find it very interesting how we seem to cling to the ideas that certain dress or behaviour is religiously based, when in fact, it was a cultural thing, before religion hijacked it. As we are seeing now.


----------



## Prospector (26 October 2006)

And really too, while I abhor this man's comments totally, it wasnt all that many years ago that the 'she was asking for it' mentally was very pervasive in our society too!  

And it also wasn't all that long ago that a woman's past sexual history was able to be questioned in Court whenever a rape allegation was made!  Maybe less than 15 years ago in fact!


----------



## Happy (26 October 2006)

> From ABC, October 26, 2006
> Anger at Al Hilaly's 'uncovered meat' remarks
> 
> A senior Muslim cleric has drawn criticism for reportedly preaching that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress and their actions.
> ...




Definitely there is a pattern in remarks, as it is often mentioned that women are responsible for rape.

This is in my opinion in par with publican responsibility for patron’s drink driving or car being stolen only because it was not locked up.
But rape thing is much more serious remark.


----------



## Happy (26 October 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> And really too, while I abhor this man's comments totally, it wasnt all that many years ago that the 'she was asking for it' mentally was very pervasive in our society too!
> 
> And it also wasn't all that long ago that a woman's past sexual history was able to be questioned in Court whenever a rape allegation was made!  Maybe less than 15 years ago in fact!






This could be used as proof that our culture moved forward.


----------



## Prospector (26 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> This could be used as proof that our culture moved forward.




Absolutely agree, but can we expect other cultures (more ancient cultures too) to move at our pace?


----------



## Sean K (26 October 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Absolutely agree, but can we expect other cultures (more ancient cultures too) to move at our pace?




Good point Prospector. Many sects of Islam do not want to change with the day and this is the problem. Religion needs to adapt to the present culture for it to be relevant or we run the risk of perpetuating a way of living suitable for a time when the Earth was flat. 

Indonesian Islam has adapted slightly, out of necessity, and is quite rich. Many 'Muslims' in Indonesia still practive Animism, and ancestor worship. Combined with elements of Hindu and Buddhism their 'Islam' is incredibly rich. But it's not really Islam.


----------



## Happy (26 October 2006)

Maybe before permission for settlement on Australian soil is granted, authorities should be satisfied the cultural differences are not going to be an issue.

Acceptance of our values and cultural achievements, ridiculed as soon as was mentioned, seems to have some merit in it.


And maybe Australian citizens, who have problem with our standards, should be sent to UN camps for relocation to area that would better suit their needs.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 October 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Isn't that what Adam was told in the Garden of Eden, metaphorically in the guise of an apple......



Prospector - it wasnt the apple in the tree that was the problem it was the pear in the bushes   I wonder how many kids come home from Sunday school and tell their parents that they're not allowed to eat apples any more.  

Like the one about the Iranian strip club - where the men all chant (from the tables in the shadows)  "show us your face, show us your face".       It would be funny - if only "God" had given this dude in the black dress a sense of humour.  (No insult intended to Muslim women btw - my guess is they have a better chance of seeing the funny side).  Personally I'd like to think that morals (Muslim or Christian or just plain old fshioned honesty) and sense of humour are not mutually exclusive.     

You are now entering religion X, or Y or Z,  please leave your sense of humour in the cloakroom.  Women:- Any flirting punishable by being buried up to your neck and being stoned to death.  Men :- any response to flirting - just say that the woman concerned was wearing horns - and well you were just horny (which is COMPLETELY different).

mmm Then there's the other one - Jesus says  "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"  - and after a pause this single stone comes flying over from the back of the crowd.... Jesus peers through the crowd, and sighs " sometimes mother dear you p*** me off!"


----------



## Dukey (26 October 2006)

G'day all.

Just an idea that crossed my mind as i read the report on Mufti's sermon ... He has basically stated that Muslim men (some of them i guess - being kind) lose control if they see something sexually enticing about a woman. 
Now - I'm sure all of us guys have on many an occasion seen 'underdressed' women in our travels - you only have to go as far as the local beach - and sure its tittilating for a while - but we hardly lose control and commit rape. And of course most Muslim men don't either. (edit... maybe the whole idea of 'underdressed' is dodgy anyway ... we were all born naked weren't we??) 
I think there are 2 important factors at play to consider
1. Gang culture, mixed with the idea that women are "tools of the devil". Outside of the group - some of these guys may not have committed rape - but who really knows. Either way its a condemnation of the Islamic attitude to women.

2. Islam is a culture of suppression of Women AND sexual repression - which may well cause the kind of uncontrolled desires - especially in the 'safety' and 'reassurance' of a gang context.  But in the end - another condemnation of islamic attitude to women and sex.

... basically - it just doesn't work to tell people they can't do something that is a purely natural urge of the Human species. How can such a society function??


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 October 2006)

Dukey said:
			
		

> Now - I'm sure all of us guys have on many an occasion seen 'underdressed' women in our travels - you only have to go as far as the local beach - and sure its tittilating .........
> I think there are 2 important factors at play to consider
> 1. Gang culture, mixed with the idea that women are "tools of the devil".
> 2. Islam is a culture of suppression of Women AND sexual repression ....
> ... basically - it just doesn't work to tell people they can't do something (sex) that is a purely natural



M8 - If I can just add a few comments - whether they contribute or not.  

I'll post a poem on the poetry thread which suggests that "the man who hasnt fallen in lust with a women stranger is a hypocrite" - written by CJ Dennis no less (of Sentimental Bloke fame lol).  But it goes without saying that he would be horrified to think that rape was legitimately on the menu.(??). Only an idiot like Al Hilaly would draw that conclusion, sheesh.

1. Gang rape? there were some horrible quotes from the transcripts of those gang rape cases in Sydney ... Moslem boys , "Australian" girls.   THESE BOYS WERE FRINGE DWELLERS - BUT WERE THEY UNDER AL HILALY INFLUENCE OR SIMILAR?  HOW MANY MORE OF THEM?.  
a) Firstly they would call them "aussie sluts" continually throughout the ordeal (so what were they if not aussie? Lebanese?).  
b) Secondly they considered themselves superior because of their religion.  c) Thirdly infidels derserve all they get.  
d) Fourthly it's ok to lie to the police in aus because they are infidels too.   e) Then they interviewed the Lebanese family - the young daughter was dressed as provocatively as I have seen any Aussie dressed in a long time - the Channel 9 interviewer caught her out as a hypocrite every time she opened her mouth "you think I'd admit to dating boys in front of my grandfather?" - she had lipstick 5mm thick !! 

2. They say that the Police report that has brought down Carl Skully is EXPLOSIVE on this subject.  Like the potential for a MASSIVE racial war was bludy real.  Carloads of these kids who flagrantly organised an attack on another suburb - and got away with it.  They needn't dob their mates in - to an INFIDEL? you 've gotta be kidding!

3. I have seen planeloads of Arabs arriving in the Philippines and Thailand from the middle east - and STRAIGHT to the brothels - such hypocricy its pukeworthy.  It seems men arent required to show any self control at all. o boy.

4. Well not much point in those particular arabs travelling to the "Romantic" cities like Rome or Paris, where women wear sheesh REALLY sexy getups - no point going there, they'd be arrested for rape in the first 5 minutes !!

5. On the positive side, I strongly encourage the Muslim church to get rid of this Al Hilaly.  It would be SUCH a relief, SUCH a vote of confidence in a positive future where we can start to understand each other's views.    

As a Moslim lady said on ABC this morning - "let's get a Mufti that can communicate - that can talk in English for a start, and secondly who makes sense!!" - paraphrased.  Hear Hear girl!!


----------



## nizar (26 October 2006)

It's Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html




I agree. That man is a disgrace.


----------



## new girl (26 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> M8 -
> 
> As a Moslim lady said on ABC this morning - "let's get a Mufti that can communicate - that can talk in English for a start, and secondly who makes sense!!" - paraphrased.  Hear Hear girl!!




A new Mufti?

I don't think Al Hilali is the problem. Where do you think he got his views from? How can all the Muslim extremists around the world (not only Arabs) happen to have the exact same values? 

This woman doesn't have a clue (no offence). A new mufti will no doubt communicate and in English only to say: 

It’s OK to have four wives.
It’s OK for a husband to discipline his wife physically if needed.
A woman's testimony in court is not equal to a man's.
You only need to utter the word in order to divorce your wife.
And don't get me started on these 70 virgins in heaven (see Corruption in Australia for that).....

These issues are not about differences in culture, language or individuals that we need to talk about and resolve, they should simply be illegal to teach in Australia.

Al Hilali should not step down from his position, he should go to jail!


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

new girl said:
			
		

> You only need to utter the word in order to divorce your wife....And don't get me started on these 70 virgins in heaven (see Corruption in Australia for that).....



New girl lol - thanks for the post 
True story:- I knew an aussie who married a Malay girl and had to change to being a moslem.  He was the biggest p***pot (and one of the funniest blokes) you ever met lol - wasnt permitted to smile throughout the ceremony! (o boy - good start to married life huh? lol)  

Anyway he discovered he only had to say " I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you" and that was IT - all over red rover.  I guess they have to say it three times to get around the case of accidentally saying it - like maybe in your sleep lol.

So just after the honeymoon he said " I divorce you, I divorce you, and.... DON'T make me have to say it again!!"  (needless to say they were subsequently divorced lol.  I mean some attitudes are constructive and some just ....self destruct.)

As for the virgins   - we've already investigated that as I recall lol. 70 sheesh. 

As for the Mufti in jail - you won't get much argument from me, though Im not sure what the offence would be.   Robbing the world of virgins maybe?

I notice Prue Goward (sex discrimination commissioner) suggests he should be deported.  - But to be honest, I'm more interested in what happens to the future of  moslem - nonmoslem relations.   

PS as for having multiple wives, there was a fellow in HK name of Stanley Ho (if my memory serves me correctly - might be wrong) - had a 4 storey house - lowest storey for the car, and a wife on each of the other 3 - so when he got home, he'd press the button on the lift to the floor he felt like going to that particular evening .  Mustve been a bludy masochist


----------



## new girl (27 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> New girl lol - thanks for the post
> True story:- I knew an aussie who married a Malay girl and had to change to being a moslem.  He was the biggest p***pot (and one of the funniest blokes) you ever met lol - wasnt permitted to smile throughout the ceremony! (o boy - good start to married life huh? lol)
> 
> Anyway he discovered he only had to say " I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you" and that was IT - all over red rover.  I guess they have to say it three times to get around the case of accidentally saying it - like maybe in your sleep lol.
> ...






Lots of love to you 2020. F@#!$% you make me laugh!! about the only one that does on this forum. What's wrong with these people, they can’t even write poetry?

I have a couple of cousins who had to switch religions to marry, one divorced and the other seems o.k.

Aussie-Muslim relations is a very complex issue, it’s dominating Australia's national and international politics. I lived with Muslims most of my life (my best friend was one) and never felt that I belonged there. No one tried to accommodate my Christian values in any way; I just had to keep my mouth shut. Muslims must fully respect the Australian way of life and get on with life. Comments like Al Hilali's should land him and others in jail. Very simple.

By the way, keep posting the poetry I love it, I just can't believe that you quote your own posts and reply to yourself!!


----------



## kitehigh (27 October 2006)

This guy would be welcomed with open arms by the Taliban and AQ.  He should be deported to the Tribal Areas of Pakistan where he can feel more comfortable, and his speeches met with loud cheering.


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

new girl said:
			
		

> By the way, keep posting the poetry



Lol - true story agin - yesterday in fact , Im walking around North Sydney , and there's this bloke waiting at the bus stop - and would you believe it there's this ray of sunlight - like really thin, and quite bright ! but solitary amongst the massive shadows of the buildings - 

So I say to him "nice here isn't it - waiting here with this stingy Ray of sunlight struggling feebly down between the houses tall,"  ....

and he goes, he goes - welll -.... he just goes !!!
Runs up the street looking around at me as if im a madman 

WHAT's HAPPENING TO THE WORLD !! lol.
ahhh SHUDDUP!! adios amigos (amigees?) whatever lol


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Lol - true story agin - yesterday in fact , Im walking around North Sydney , and there's this bloke waiting at the bus stop - and would you believe it there's this ray of sunlight - like really thin, and quite bright ! but solitary amongst the massive shadows of the buildings -
> 
> So I say to him "nice here isn't it - waiting here with this stingy Ray of sunlight struggling feebly down between the houses tall,"  ....
> 
> ...



Well...

_"...townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste."
_


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Well..."...townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste."



M8 , you got it one  !!   :bier: 

"Banjo, thou should be living at this hour - Australia hath need of thee" 

Just for a lark Im going to write all my business letters today with a thumbnail dipped in tar.  see ya.


----------



## Julia (27 October 2006)

The Muslim community has done itself no favours by its senior members meeting for several hours last night to deliberate on Hilali's comments, and today announcing no action would be taken.  They say he was misinterpreted, and, after all, he has unreservedly apologised.

Not good enough.  Had they taken some action against him, they would have earned considerably greater credibility with most of the Australian community.

Julia


----------



## professor_frink (27 October 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> The Muslim community has done itself no favours by its senior members meeting for several hours last night to deliberate on Hilali's comments, and today announcing no action would be taken.  They say he was misinterpreted, and, after all, he has unreservedly apologised.
> 
> Not good enough.  Had they taken some action against him, they would have earned considerably greater credibility with most of the Australian community.
> 
> Julia



They haven't taken action against any of the other stupid things that have come out this nutters mouth so why would this time be any different 
He has been saying these kinds of things since before he was even a resident.

Here's the wiki page on him. This is far from the first time he's sounded like a raving lunatic.
crazy muslim man


----------



## Sean K (27 October 2006)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> They haven't taken action against any of the other stupid things that have come out this nutters mouth so why would this time be any different
> He has been saying these kinds of things since before he was even a resident.
> 
> Here's the wiki page on him. This is far from the first time he's sounded like a raving lunatic.
> crazy muslim man




Thanks for the link professor. Wiki have everything don't they?! I wonder if I'm in there...


----------



## Happy (27 October 2006)

> From ABC, October 27, 2006. 6:09am (AEST)
> Muslim leaders accept Sheikh's explanation
> 
> The Lebanese Muslim Association in Sydney says it will take no action against one of the nation's most senior Muslim clerics over his comments that scantily dressed women invite sexual violence.
> ...






Few hours later - 




> From ABC, October 27
> 
> Sheikh's sermons put on hold
> 
> ...






Reluctantly he’s almost put aside for dust to settle down.
Hope this is not the end of this story.


----------



## Happy (27 October 2006)

> From ABC,, October 27, 2006. 11:24am (AEST)
> Political leaders maintain pressure on Sheikh
> 
> The Prime Minister has warned there could be long-term problems for the Muslim community in Australia over controversial comments a Sheikh made about women during a sermon in Sydney last month.
> ...





There seems to be more pressure and I hope there will be no demonstrations in support of misinterpreted preacher.


----------



## Happy (27 October 2006)

> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http://news.ninemsn.com.au/vote%





We can register our opinion on Nine MSN site today, if we want.


----------



## Sean K (27 October 2006)

I wonder how the Cronulla crowd will deal with all this? I can sence some flag waving occuring.


----------



## new girl (27 October 2006)

> _A spokesman for Sheik Alhilali said the backlash and criticism had badly affected him and he had been depressed and confined to bed all day, breathing with the assistance of an oxygen tank._





What a waste!! a whole oxygen tank?


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Not good enough.  Had they taken some action against him, they would have earned considerably greater credibility with most of the Australian community. Julia



Julia I think I heard Moslem spokesman say that the fact that the Sheik's up for re-election in 3 months or so, they might wait till then to "give hm the flik".

BTW, I'm reminded of your poem about the people in the buses lol  - that's what it would end up like if this bloke's disciples were in charge of morals. - something about everyone pretending it was the end of the world.   - 

Announcement Announcement!!  The Miss World Pageant has now reached the SWIMSUIT competition stage - mmm after last year's little "incident", could all followers of Al Hilaly please leave the room thank you".

PS the Sheik has apologised for comparing bare flesh to something that will attract an alley cat - Firstly he apologises to the alley cats - he meant to say  stray dogs, but (he's learning) he's already preparing his apology to stray dogs as well.

(with a knick knack paddy whack give the dog a boner - this old man came rolling home)


----------



## spitrader1 (27 October 2006)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> They haven't taken action against any of the other stupid things that have come out this nutters mouth so why would this time be any different
> He has been saying these kinds of things since before he was even a resident.
> 
> Here's the wiki page on him. This is far from the first time he's sounded like a raving lunatic.
> crazy muslim man



instead of the mufti hiding behind his muslim mates in lakemba, why doesnt he come up to country queensland with a couple of cattle/cane farmers who are living on 5.00 a day because of the drought. After they have worked 12 hours a day, and come inside for half a glass of water not a beer (because he cant afford one) and not a full glass of water (because of the draught) the mufti should then tell the famer that the reason his wife got insulted in the street the other day was because she didnt have a burqha on. then lets see whats fair and whats not.


----------



## Julia (27 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Julia I think I heard Moslem spokesman say that the fact that the Sheik's up for re-election in 3 months or so, they might wait till then to "give hm the flik".
> 
> BTW, I'm reminded of your poem about the people in the buses lol  - that's what it would end up like if this bloke's disciples were in charge of morals. - something about everyone pretending it was the end of the world.   -
> 
> .



2020, either you have an astonishing memory or have just been re-reading the poetry thread:  that contribution was many months ago I think.
Btw, although I contributed that poem to the thread I'm certainly not creative enough to have written it  - just loved the poem though from when I first came across it about 20 years ago.

Julia


----------



## Rafa (27 October 2006)

Wow... Been in Japan last month on a holiday and come back to see not much has changed... more crazy clerics talking out of their backsides! I wonder if there are muslims in Japan, cause those Japanese girls wear the shortest shorts imaginable!   


I really think its up to Muslim women to sort this out. I am sure we will be there giving them all the support they need, but it is them that need to get the ball rolling.

Reading the comments, I was pleasantly surprised to see that a muslim woman came out to speak, and she put her views forward in a forthright and succinct manner. 

I hope this issue doesn't just flitter away like some of the others controversys, but rather forms the start of a proper campaign to break the fundamentalist establishment. Christianity had to go thru this process a while back... but like all good revolutions, it needs to be driven from the grassroots.


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2006)

FYI

An interesting article in news.com.au on the matter.


----------



## new girl (27 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Wow... Been in Japan last month on a holiday and come back to see not much has changed... more crazy clerics talking out of their backsides! I wonder if there are muslims in Japan, cause those Japanese girls wear the shortest shorts imaginable!
> 
> 
> I really think its up to Muslim women to sort this out. I am sure we will be there giving them all the support they need, but it is them that need to get the ball rolling.
> ...




Hi Rafa,

Not sure if you're referring to my post, I am not Muslim. I have to disagree with you though, this is not a struggle for Muslim women only. A few comments:

1. Al Hilali wasn’t talking about Muslim women only, he kindly included all of us.

2. Al Hilali, the men that were listening to his speech and the women he was referring to are all Australian citizens (including the cats eating the meat). 

3. The mosque is built on Australian soil.

4. A lot of these Muslim women are made to believe that they are being respected if they cover up and protected from the evil infidels, the ones that don't buy it know that their life is at stake if they show any resistance.

5. I am interested to hear from you and the other guys how they would feel if someone implied that somehow wearing a singlet in summer could get you raped?


Why does the PM think this an issue for the Muslim community to deal with? This is an attack on half the population of Australia.


----------



## Rafa (27 October 2006)

Interesting aritcle...


> And if you want public confirmation of what we thought were the worst public examples of the shocking disrespect of women, we had the sad case of Brisbane mother Dianne Brimble being sexually abused and left for dead by grown men.
> 
> The latest example of the Melbourne DVD where a group of young boys gang up to sexually abuse an intellectually impaired girl, and the discussion surrounding it, is an abomination, and the worst type of degradation one could imagine, not only done in the context of a group but recorded and doing the rounds of Melbourne high schools.




Whenever I see a veiled muslim girl, i immediately feel sorry for her, imagining the opression she is going thru.


At the same time, when i look at young 'western' girls, i see the very same oppression, in their skimpy clothing and their need to make themselves more attractive to males... as they try and conform to the images they see on TV and in the magazines on what is 'sexy'.

This was even more noticable in Japan, where almost all Japanese girls (under 30) dressed up in lolita fashion, short shorts, knee high socks, high heels, etc... spending bucketloads of cash on hairstyles, make up, luis vitton handbags, etc. Sexy it certainly was, but I did feel sorry for the whole lot of them, trying to make an impression with their bodies, in a city of millions!

I wonder who is worse off.

That is why the Shiek deserves even more punishment that he is currently recieving... He should be hung, drawn and quartered cause he is legitimising 'rape' and the traditional attitues of men (both muslim and I am sorry to say, western/japanese men as well).


----------



## Happy (27 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Interesting aritcle...
> 
> I wonder who is worse off.




Not the cash registers of fashion outlets.

I think, girls don't do it solely to present their body better, they do it for themselves, to feel great.

Partially due to atavistic urge to attract opposite sex, but to be liked and to be desired and to be able to choose partner and definitely not to be raped.


You could compare it to garment presented on shelf for purchase not for stealing.


----------



## new girl (27 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Not the cash registers of fashion outlets.
> 
> I think, girls don't do it solely to present their body better, they do it for themselves, to feel great.
> 
> ...




Couldn't have said it better!!


----------



## Happy (27 October 2006)

> From ABC, Friday, October 27, 2006. 3:00pm (AEST)
> 
> Sheikh refuses to resign
> 
> ...




Even if he doesn’t resign, I think at least note will be taken and preaching will be more in line with Australian standards or should I say dreaded and ridiculed word  –values-.


----------



## Rafa (27 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Not the cash registers of fashion outlets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yup, spot on.

I think people attitudes need to change big time.....
Some decent sentences and public floggings for rapists would be a good start! Not to mention a public flogging for the Sheik!


----------



## Out Too Soon (27 October 2006)

Good point Rafa western girls r under a lot of pressure to be attrctive, still they don't really have to.
Al Hilaly is a bloody nuisance all the same, I like to tell ppl about how I use to live in a muslim village in sth Thailand & how wonderful the ppl there were, The women didn't wear any head covering either (Krabi area, not Haddyai). I've heard plenty of blokes say things similar to Hilaly some of the worst were quotes from Aussie judges until recently. 
Speaking as a typical aussie bloke tho, I'd prefer as a civilized animal to be tempted by skimpy dresses & control my urges rather than have the fairer sex cover up. It's not a muslim thing, it's an Arab problem from centuries of women being treated deplorably.
 Don't be too shy to smile & say hello to your neighbourhood muslims, they need to be reassured at the moment, the more diverse our society, the more interesting. The ppl responsible for putting Hilaly in his position tho' should wake up to themselves, we're all Aussies & we all want to enjoy life together.


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

There's such a groundswell where I live, that my cat and the neighbours cat have been out at the side fence discussing what can be done about this bloke.   For starters, they are making a stand, and are refusing to eat meat ! - so now Im having to get this bludy vegetarian catfood,  - AND its gotta be given to them hidden in a pillow slip.  

Secondly, everyone doing laps up at the swimming pool in their Speedo's seems be swimming much faster than normal - seems they are scared of the person following them catching up with them and having their evil way with them.    

Thirdly the council workers are refusing to be seen wearing their tradional blue singlets, hairy chests, and various cleavage cracks (hairy of otherwise). - and they are insisting that if they wear shorts and as a result are raped by some passing lady whilst on duty , then they are entitled to the rest of the day off. !

O boy - will the world ever be the same


----------



## Rafa (27 October 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> Speaking as a typical aussie bloke tho, I'd prefer as a civilized animal to be tempted by skimpy dresses & control my urges rather than have the fairer sex cover up.




hehe, couldn't agree more


----------



## Sean K (27 October 2006)

I fear that we are at the beginings of a long term situation in Australia where there is a stand off between Muslims, and the rest. They are going to paint themselves into a corner and cause long term conflict in our society. The golden age of a peaceful Australia is over. 

(not counting destroying the Aboriginals)


----------



## Rafa (27 October 2006)

Thats rather defeatest Kennas...

Are you underestimating the religion of the 21st century... Capitalism, that is sweeping all before it?


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 October 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> 1.The women didn't wear any head covering either (Krabi area, not Haddyai).
> 2. ...some of the worst were quotes from Aussie judges until recently.
> 3. ... I'd prefer as a civilized animal to be tempted by skimpy dresses & control my urges rather than have the fairer sex cover up.
> 4. ...from centuries of women being treated deplorably.
> ...



OTS Top post man !!
1. women in PNG dont cover breasts, but funnily enough shouldn't show their thighs!  I wonder what happens when they are only partly convinced they should convert to muslim? maybe cover their heads , but still display their breasts?  (bit like the Cannibal converted to christianity, and on Friday he only ate fishermen?).
2. Judges, not wrong - and dont forget Governor Generals.
3. a) skimpy dresses, you bet!.  (Also pretty keen on leather, maybe whips on weekends, lol).   
3. b) I've posted a poem on the poetry thread - "Funny how fashions have shifted" - one verse about our ole mate Neanderthal (from Dusseldorf).
3. c) Found a couple of quotes :- 
*"Virtue has always been conceived as a victorious resistance to one's vital desire" - James Cabell   (So the Al Hilali answer? - "lead me not into temptation - on second thoughts - since I can't trust myself - hide the temptation under 20 yards of curtain material". )
*" Any of us can achieve virtue, if by virtue we merely mean the avoidance of the vices which do not attract us"- Robert S Lynd.
*"How easy is it to be virtuous when we have no inclination to be otherwise" Dalf Wyllarde. 
4. possible exception of ones that come to Aus and get a bit westernised.
5. & 6. agreed.  But I love the fact that moslems are outraged as well.  
PS You're not gonna believe this but the bloke down the road thinks that  mufti 's belong in Tasmania?


----------



## new girl (27 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Thirdly the council workers are refusing to be seen wearing their tradional blue singlets, hairy chests, and various cleavage cracks (hairy of otherwise). - and they are insisting that if they wear shorts and as a result are raped by some passing lady whilst on duty , then they are entitled to the rest of the day off. !(




I can see how I failed to make my point. I wonder if we will see more men wearing singlets this summer, council and otherwise!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 October 2006)

new girl said:
			
		

> I can see how I failed to make my point. I wonder if we will see more men wearing singlets this summer, council and otherwise!!



Newgirl  - its called brainstorming , we feed on each others ideas around here   the ABC call it type back radio i think.   I was of course responding to your challenge (whether I realised it or not) :-



> 5. I am interested to hear from you and the other guys how they would feel if someone implied that somehow wearing a singlet in summer could get you raped?




It was your idea this concept of this sexy singlet dude
and so vulnerable that women in an instant saw him nude
the TEMPTATION there to TACKLE him and HAVE YOUR WAY - so kissible - 
...
I just added "brickies cleavage" - just to make him irresissible


----------



## new girl (28 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Newgirl  - its called brainstorming , we feed on each others ideas around here   the ABC call it type back radio i think.   I was of course responding to your challenge (whether I realised it or not)






Brainstorming, eh? I just got an idea, Al Hilali wearing the hotest singlet, bum crack and all in Silverwater jail? hopefully raped by adoring fans!! 

I tell you I'll be the first in line to hear his sermon after that.


----------



## greggy (28 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> I fear that we are at the beginings of a long term situation in Australia where there is a stand off between Muslims, and the rest. They are going to paint themselves into a corner and cause long term conflict in our society. The golden age of a peaceful Australia is over.
> 
> (not counting destroying the Aboriginals)



Hi Kennas,

I hope you're proved to be wrong for the sake of this country, but I also feel that a lot of people are worried.  I feel that we should look for positive things that bind us together as a nation.    
I have a young daughter and was sickened by the religious leader's comments. I know a number of people who are Muslims.  They too couldn't work out the religious leader's comments.


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 October 2006)

THE AROUSAL OF THE BLOUSE, AS ACTRESS SAID TO MUFTI. 
so That's it !! blame the short sleeved blouse!! - those women's arms are bare!!
and sight of arms can sure arouse, and FORCE men to go spare,
and groups of girls are instant cows, bulls humping everywhere,
that's why god gave us brutal powers - that bare arm's like a DARE!!

so That's it !! blame the mini skirt !! - because men gauk and gape
and smiling means youre just a flirt, and ready for a rape
and  sight of just a dab of knee can turn priest into ape
so like the klu klux Klan, you see, all girls must wear a cape

the best capes come in colours, mainly black and hot as hell
you can see em at the gold coast - whyfore wear them? hard to tell
as for women joining - wide eyed - like a rose's purest smell
but they sadly fit them blinkers, - must be such a rock hard "sell".
(hard to ride a surfboard as well )

and there's so much talk of morals and these matters high and lofty
and this mufti is on sickleave and he's really such a softie
now the Whitehouse needs a whitewash, (nice diversion when you're stuftie)
like an olive and the capsicum (said actress to her mufti). 

Let's just ...GET IN SOMEONE SENSIBLE!!, my moslem friends, and kin,
His stance is indefensible, quid bono, given in!!
He's stalling on the stepping down, and bunkered down with spin
And he's proving to the world he knows so little about sin.


----------



## anon (28 October 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Thats rather defeatest Kennas...
> 
> Are you underestimating the religion of the 21st century... Capitalism, that is sweeping all before it?






Capitalism has indeed swept communism out of Europe and other parts of the world, but it hasn't been 100% successful. 

Communism in its heyday was a powerful force and one of its aims has been destruction of all religions in its territories, including that of the Muslims. Once communism collapsed all the suppressed religions came out of the hiding and have grown ever stronger, which shows that you can kill bodies, but not the spirit.

It's a nice thought that capitalism will pacify Islam, but I can't see that happening any time soon. Muslims come mainly from Middle East,  a place where they have been pumping liquid gold out of the ground and selling it to the West at top prices over a number of decades by now. Yet the enormous amounts of money they have been getting from the west hasn't  affected Muslims' religious aims. Money is not their objective. Domination by Islam is.

Sheik Hilaly lived in Australia for 25 years and he still can't speak English. In that time he hasn't learned to understand us either. If you read the whole of his speech and not just the part about cats and meat, you will begin to understand that he is applying his knowledge of the Lebanese society in Australia to the mainstream, to our great disadvantage. 

This guy is a fanatic who teaches hatred from the pulpit, but this time he has done the nation a valuable service by bringing out Muslim thinking into the open.

anon


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 October 2006)

:topic hello hello - I think we have another one (or two lol)

Not only is there "a whole lot of Sheiking going on ", but this as well :-not rape this time , but consenting homosexual sex - amongst animals - and where the money should be better spent - see last line lol.  The Pentecostal priest reckons ...ahhh, its too stupid to repeat lol.... maybe he's an ostrich with his head in the sand - then again - he'd better watch out there might be another ostrich walking past that's "similarly inclined"  

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1775806.htm


> 'Against Nature?'
> The exhibition, entitled "Against Nature?", displays examples of this behaviour in pictures and models.    In one image, two female adult bonobo chimpanzees are having sex, oblivious to a young male who is attempting to join in.
> 
> These peaceful primates - with whom humans shares 99 per cent of their genetic make-up - use sex as a stress reliever, regardless of age and gender barriers. ........It has been reported that in certain bird species males double up, allowing them to control a larger territory than a heterosexual couple, which in turn serves to attract more females. ...Among swans and flamingos there have been cases of two females living together using sexual contact with males purely to reproduce.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 October 2006)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1775822.htm


> Kevin Rudd:- "Attorney-General Philip Ruddock needs to make a statement about whether or not the sheikh's comments equal an incitement to violence under the terms of Australia's criminal code," he said.  "You can't simply sound hairy-chested about Sheikh Hilaly's comment on one hand and then leave unanswered the question of whether he's breached Australia's criminal law."



There's that old favourite of Rudd's "hairy chested" -  (just cos he's got a really hairy chest I guess).  Anyway, on this occasion, Ruddy, imho, I think a more apt description is "sick to our stomachs".   But it sure would be interesting if they could charge him - perverting the course of perverts maybe?
"with a nickers knackers piece of meat, give the cat a boner... this old man came ... "''


----------



## Hershy (28 October 2006)

I was once told that the origin of women covering their faces and to some extent virtually hiding their bodies was a  caliph aflicted with pathological jealousy who has decreed that all his wives cover up when in public. Then the fashion spread to all corners of the caliphate. And with the spread of Islam, went the habit.
And let's not forget that the vestments that nuns wear are derivatives.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 October 2006)

"Girls - Are you spending $1000's on dresses and stuff and piling on the reddest lipstick you can find until you look REALLY good - maybe cutting out big holes in the back of that dress? and the front? and even the sides? - and no one appreciates it. ??  Well try this webisite:-
http://relationship-advice.com/findlove.html


> No Matter What You Look Like... No Matter How You Feel About Yourself Right Now... Read My Emails Every Day - Absolutely Free - And You Will Become Adored, Cherished, And Respected By ALL The Men In Your Life"
> -- Relationship Author Mimi Tanner, whose email column is read by thousands of women and men all over the world every day!
> "Find Out Why Thousands of Women  Keep These Emails Their Little Secret..."  Here's what readers say:
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 October 2006)

And now for today's sermon ... By Sheik THENARDIER
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/les-miserables-dog-eat-dog-the-sewers-lyrics.html
"It's a world where the dog eats the dog
Where they kill for bones in the street
And God in His Heaven
He don't interfere
'Cause he's dead as the stiffs at my feet
I raise my eyes to see the heavens
And only the moon looks down
The harvest moon shines down!"
PS Thenardier is rarely put forward as an example of an honourable character   But he has this marvellous way of comparing the world with hungry animals.


----------



## new girl (30 October 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Newgirl  - its called brainstorming , we feed on each others ideas around here   the ABC call it type back radio i think.   I was of course responding to your challenge (whether I realised it or not) :-
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is my pathetic and sad attempt to use the right side of my brain. Being an engineer, I mainly use a keyboard and the computer does the rest (both sides of brain on permanent holiday, broker notified). 

So out of pure jealousy, of you 2020, I decided to step out of my comfort zone and risk making a fool of myself. Here I go: 

*A fatwa was declared for sexy dudes to cover up; does this Mufti have a clue??
OH NO! Take off your shirts boys, preferably the singlets too!!
Don’t worry, no cats in sight, they’re on pillow-cased veggies now
It’s only us poor girls, waiting, hoping, feeling...oh…so… blue.*

PS: English is my second language; please direct all complaints/insults towards English teacher. Hell you can even blame the Mufti.


----------



## Happy (30 October 2006)

> From ABC, October 30, 2006. 9:47am (AEDT)
> 
> Sheikh will step aside, Muslim colleague says
> 
> ...




Not definite yet, but he will be probably persuaded to wait aside for dust to settle down




> From ABC, Sunday, October 29, 2006. 7:47pm (AEDT)
> 
> Labor's 1980s Al Hilaly decision 'blatantly political'
> 
> ...




Imagine how many were guided by his preaching and possibly influenced since 1986 when he was almost deported?


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 October 2006)

Good one newgirl   you's a poet lol.
I liked the one (what's her name divine's column yesterday - most of her articles are seriously prejudiced - but this was surprisingly tame - even discussing the option of Sheik AH staying , "the devil you know etc".  Yet again I think not too many would agree with her. 

BUT she points out that gang rape of one of the girls was when she was dressed in her best suit - just been to a job interview.
Also that one of the fathers said " if these girls just STAYED HOME at night, then there wouldn't be any of these problems and my boys wouldnt be in trouble.

I was wondering - perhaps someone should explain to that father.... "Perhaps if your boys stayed home, then the rest of us Australians females and (civilised) males (by which I mean the ones that are a few steps up from the concepts of night clubbing with a real club)- could get on with what they like doing  - VIVE LIFE!.

PS I was also wondering - if the sight of girls in bikinis is so heathen to this bloke, then presumably his followers wont be interested in going to the beach this summer - Cronulla for instance.

LATE EXTRA _ NICE POST HAPPY  :bier:  
Say can my daughter come out of hiding now?:couch  
maybe we can even go to the beach showing some skin ? lolesok:


----------



## nioka (30 October 2006)

News just in . The sheik has collapsed at the Lakembla mosque and is being worked on ny paramedics???????


----------



## Happy (1 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 1, 2006. 7:00am (AEDT)
> Amnesty chief says Sheikh doesn't deserve to lead Muslims
> 
> Amnesty International's first female Muslim secretary-general, Irene Khan, says a Sydney Islamic cleric does not deserve the privilege of leadership after a comment comparing some women to "uncovered meat".
> ...





Actually this is what is needed, some comments from Muslim community.


----------



## Happy (1 November 2006)

> From Yahoo7,
> 
> 
> Wednesday November 1, 02:41 PM
> ...




Why rally?


----------



## Happy (2 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 1, 2006
> 
> Large police presence expected at Al Hilaly rally
> 
> ...





Part of SMS message is disturbing -



> This is a critical day to show our solidarity and to silence the hypocrites!"




Some people have more nerve in making questionable statements.

This is another example of one nation with them and us.
Does multicultural society really work?


----------



## insider (2 November 2006)

"uncovered meat" LMFAO... I'm offended that the retard also suggests that men are like animals that can't control their urges... You can tell he ain't getting any   ... Did you know that his comments were all over international television... even in Brazil which is 99 percent catholic. Let me finish off with saying he certainly doesn't speak for me and certainly not for my muslim buddies... HAPPY TRADING


----------



## robert toms (2 November 2006)

I am certainly offended by the comments by the Muslim spiritual leader.He is trying to deprive us grandfathers of a free daily peep show.There is not much for free these days and now he is threatening our happiness!
The best things in life are free ,or thats what we are told.


----------



## insider (2 November 2006)

I think he just needs a hobby! :


----------



## Happy (2 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 2, 2006
> 
> Howard urges Muslim community to resolve Sheikh row
> 
> ...





Stalling tactics somehow ring the bell; this must be their norm.


Rally is going to be there merely to give proof, that he is loved so much that he will not be allowed to go, by popular demand.

Hope John and the crew have thought on few solutions, and hope they didn’t leave it for too long to get resolved by the community.


----------



## nioka (2 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> I think he just needs a hobby! :



Deep sea diving? very deep sea!!!


----------



## Out Too Soon (2 November 2006)

Something has been bugging me about this thread, "Religous Leader Condemns rape". Actually he condones rape on the grounds that his supporters it seems can't control there more base sexual urges.
Really religous leaders of all persuasions should stick to there field of expertise (which is not sex).


----------



## Sean K (2 November 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> Something has been bugging me about this thread, "Religous Leader Condemns rape". Actually he condones rape on the grounds that his supporters it seems can't control there more base sexual urges.
> Really religous leaders of all persuasions should stick to there field of expertise (which is not sex).




I was thinking that too OTS.


----------



## Happy (8 November 2006)

> From SBS
> 
> 
> ASKING FOR IT
> ...





Debate bit provocative, both sides seem to have dug in and were just defending their position.

Only few voices said how it is, that –lack of appropriate dress provocation-  is deeply entrenched in first generation migrant’s minds.

It’ll take bit longer for some women to liberate and be equal.


Best comment?:

-If dress is sign of modesty, why only women are obliged to dress appropriately and cover faces too?-



 Anybody interested might see “ASKING FOR IT” on SBS TV, as it will be repeated on Friday 10 Nov at 1.00pm and Monday 13 Nov at 2.00pm.


----------



## Rafa (8 November 2006)

i felt sorry for the woman they who spoke close to the end...

pretty much she said muslim women like her are stuck between a rock and a hard place...

on one hand they have muslim men forcing them to wear the hijab, and on the other hand they are not getting the REAL support of the general australian community to stop wearing it...

its seems to be more a game of politics at the moment...

the final comment was most interesting when another woman said there are plenty of dissenting voices amongst the muslim community, but they don't make good news stories...!!! 

the quotes of crazy sensationalist muslim clerics make for lot better headlines.


all in all, a very intersting program none the less...


----------



## Happy (8 November 2006)

Last part of transcript which can be found on – 

http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php





> From SBS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rafa (8 November 2006)

nice one.
yeah, shakira hussien comment in particular made me a bit queasy...



> JENNY BROCKIE: Shakira, a final comment from you, what do you think needs to happen now?
> 
> SHAKIRA HUSSEIN: I think what needs to happen is people need to recognise, Muslims and noon Muslims that Muslim women are being done over twice. They being done over because they are the object of the kind of vilification that's been directed at the community as a whole and I'm sorry, Keysar Trad but they are also being done over because too many Muslim men are using racism as an excuse for not dealing with appropriately, because there is a media beat up, then that's an excuse for just going away and saying the poor man, he's being vilified, character assassination, let's just let it all pass.




a few minute before that, she said to brownyn bishop...



> SHAKIRA HUSSEIN: I just wanted to tell Bronwyn that if the aim of her statements is to have fewer Muslim girls wearing hijab then she's going about it the wrong way. The only time in my life in Australia that I ever wanted to put one on was after her speech last week. I want to not wear it because I'm annoyed with al-Hilali but then I hear Bronwyn and I want to put it on. Every day I get dressed I have to work out who I'm most angry with.




Just as an aside, I think Jenny Brockie is one useless compere, she lets her preconcieved ideas and obvious partialism, interfere with robust debate and ends up turning the most debates more into a political circus!


----------



## arlee123 (8 November 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Anyone know the actual cultural reason for Arabic women to cover up their modesty? (It's an Arabian thing, not Islamic)




cause its desert in arab area.....too hot...too much sunlight..to need that to protect the skin...i think


----------



## Julia (8 November 2006)

arlee123 said:
			
		

> cause its desert in arab area.....too hot...too much sunlight..to need that to protect the skin...i think



I've never heard that given by any Muslim as a reason for wearing the hijab.
Most of the reasons I've heard centre around the concept of "modesty".
But then a while ago I was amused to hear a couple of Muslim women discussing the topic on Radio National and they agreed that it was simply convenient as they didn't have to think about what their hair looked like or what clothes to wear.   Also, that it didn't matter if they put on too much weight as no one would notice.

 I imagine the reasons for wearing veils or whatever are as numerous as the wearers.

Julia


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> .. it was simply convenient as they didn't have to think about what their hair looked like ... I imagine the reasons for wearing veils or whatever are as numerous as the wearers.



Maybe the answer is that EVERYONE should wear them!! - then us blokes wouldn't have to shave every morning.  

Gee but times have changed since I was a teenager - Only veils I ever heard about came in groups of seven, and there was dancing involved.

(and - even though the dance originated in the middle east ,  rape was never even considered ,  it was called CIVILIZED entertainment)


----------



## new girl (9 November 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> groups of seven




x 10?


PS: shaving once a day is a small price to pay for you boys to enjoy the final product of waxing, nails, hair, make up and the pain that comes with high heels!.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 November 2006)

new girl said:
			
		

> x 10?.



lol - you back on those 70 virgins again? lol  you crazy ,


----------



## new girl (9 November 2006)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> lol - you back on those 70 virgins again? lol  you crazy ,




You have no idea how crazy!!!

(besides it was your funniest post ever).


----------



## Happy (27 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 27, 2006
> 
> Thousands rally against change in Pakistan rape laws
> 
> ...




This could explain some of the antics we see in parts of our multicultural fabric.

Customs and beliefs are deeply ingrained and can be seen as partial explanation of comments made even by clerics.


----------



## insider (11 January 2007)

YEP THE SHEIK IS AT IT AGAIN... INSULTING THE VERY SAME COUNTRY THAT PROVIDES HIM WITH A FIRST WORLD LIVING... 

HERE IS THE HYPER LINK
ARTICLE


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

and conversely ..   Islamic association apologises over Al Hilali comments..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1825372.htm


> The founder of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia (IFAA) has apologised for comments made by the Sydney cleric, Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilali, in a television interview.
> 
> Sheikh Al Hilali was embroiled in controversy in October, after reports that in a sermon he had compared scantily clad women to uncovered meat.
> 
> ...



Must admit, I didn't enoy watching him being championed and chaired aloft by worshippers after the last round of "slipups".  Man doesn't deserve to be in a position of representing others.  imho.  just one "slipup" after another, one insult after another, one apology after another, etc etc  (it has got to the point where even the apologies are insults !! - insults to our intelligence!)

PS on the aboriginal thread, the question of unrepresentative proportion of blacks in custody came up.  Well after the Cronulla "riots", there was likewise an unrepresentative proportion of white boys jailed compared to the moslem boys.     This Mufti is a serious antagonistic influence.


----------



## Bobby (12 January 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> YEP THE SHEIK IS AT IT AGAIN... INSULTING THE VERY SAME COUNTRY THAT PROVIDES HIM WITH A FIRST WORLD LIVING...
> 
> HERE IS THE HYPER LINK
> ARTICLE



We must think alike Insider, I'm sick of this & huge numbers of  Aussies are as well.

Cheers
Bob.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (12 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> and conversely ..   Islamic association apologises over Al Hilali comments..
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1825372.htm
> 
> ...




With idiots in power and positions of influence running the country alined with the PC brigade what else could we expect?

The part in RED has made me RED for a while now.


----------



## Happy (12 January 2007)

> ABC , Last Update: Thursday, January 11, 2007. 7:14pm (AEDT)
> 
> ISLAMIC ASSOCIATION APOLOGISES OVER AL HILALI COMMENTS
> 
> ...




Excuse after excuse after excuse, until we get used to it.


Australian Government’s response - 



> ABC , Last Update: Friday, January 12, 2007. 7:14am (AEDT)
> 
> SHEIK'S COMMENTS NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY, DOWNER SAYS
> 
> ...





Probably one method to believe that problem doesn’t exist.

But to me and probably other scared citizens, we are up against determined group of people who eventually hope to take control of this land and have only religion, their religion and only rule, their rule.

Pretending that this is not brewing is probably bit naive, probably associated with 3-year term of the government.

In 3 years time it might not be their worry, so why worry?


----------



## Happy (12 January 2007)

> From ABC, January 12, 2007
> 
> 
> SHEIK'S COMMENTS SPUR CALLS TO IMMIGRATION DEPT
> ...





It is funny that we are at his mercy if he comes back or not.

How about revoke citizenship and make him reapply and see how his character qualifies for re-entry visa.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 January 2007)

http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?g=6534511E-7C51-4509-9770-1C2637659C9C&f=39&fg=copy  channel 9 interviewing Kaysar Trad.
Who apologises and claims that the Mufti would also apologise (yeah right).
I have a lot of time for Kaysar Trad - but the sooner he sacks his boss the better  

PS ignore the ads - and click on the relevant thumbnail "Sheik Alhilali strikes again".


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> I've never heard that given by any Muslim as a reason for wearing the hijab.
> Most of the reasons I've heard centre around the concept of "modesty".
> But then a while ago I was amused to hear a couple of Muslim women discussing the topic on Radio National and they agreed that it was simply convenient as they didn't have to think about what their hair looked like or what clothes to wear.   Also, that it didn't matter if they put on too much weight as no one would notice.
> 
> ...




Nice one  covering their hair to not worry about fixinig it 

its basic people, every reliegon has its rules....or....symbolic rules, In Islam, God...had his rules to tell people what to do if they want to be believers.

Hijab is both a psychological & practical commitment from a woman that she would be able to cover a big part of her beauty in an effort or a try to prevent others from being attracted to her based on her looks!! & ....as many will say ..... to not let the "men monsters" who are mentally sick or capable or doing bizzare doings like rape, sexual harrasement or whatever.... from getting close to her as her sexappeal will be "less" than others, practically, minimising her chances of being on the spotlight or a radar of any sex maniac considering the traditional theory that sex maniacs usually have to be attracted physically to their victim & that in general some people while they're drunk for example could get very excited & do crazy things if woman is really wearing revealing clothing!

Now, before you go crazy at me, I'll give you a good example, govt give rules to drivers not to speed more than 110km/hour on highways, knowing in fact that having a rule ONLY will not stop anyone from speeding, so they make it a law, a protective law, NOT NECESSERILY that if you speed you'll die, & NOT NECESSERILY that it will be your fault on the road to have an accident, it could be a drunk driver or unlicensed boof who hits you!!! some individuals may realise how dangerous speeding is & install a speed limiter on their cars to make it NOT exceed 110km/hour as they're scared of having an accident.

if we could consider having a hijab (NOT COVERING THE FACE just the hair), is same as putting a speed limiter in trying to avoid an accident. of course we can't compare human beings to cars but the idea here is that some good drivers can do 200km/hour without having an accident & others can do 50km/hour while having an accident, the reliegon gave the hijab as a "precautionary step" that if ladies would like to protect themselves from maniacs & lunatics & mentally ill people then they follow god's law & wear it, then if they wear Hijab it should "minimise" thier chances of getting attacked by those maniacs & mentally ill people, considering the theory that most likely they would get attacked based on the level of how sexy they are in the chance that they are ever to be targeted by any mentally ill or sex maniac.

Practically, it's like putting a seat belt while driving, you could have your seatbelt & still die in an accident  but chances of getting hurt are LESS if you have a seatbelt on than if you don't have it on.

Of course as all God's instructions or rules are, they all come with "you have to" & that you'll be a better person if you follow my instructions & that you'll get good points & you'll get to heaven if you do follow the rules. some understand the idea behind the rule & some don't & just follow & find it convinient to not being able to worry about their hair 

Sheikh Taj doesn't have complete grasp on English or how can he explain Reliegon or reason behind some rules, Arabic is very complicated language & due to its "many meanings" to the same word depending the tone & body language, timing, etc....the same word could mean many things & he assumes that everyone (Inc. those that don't speak Arabic) would have the same cultural & historical backgroung as himself or as middleeasteners.

I don't agree with Sheikh Taj in many things & I think he pushed it about women being responsible for getting raped. The Australian society we're living in now is a lot more acceptable to women's revealed clothing than what it is in other places on earth. Having a precautionary measure like having a hijab may not stop a lunatic from raping a girl & having a girl with a bikini may not also give an extra reason for a person or a permit to assault that woman. The idea here is that he may be considered in some sense to be someone who advocates for using the "precautionary" measure as the Hijab but unfortunately he stuffed up & used crazy metaphors.

cheers,


----------



## Julia (29 January 2007)

Perhaps women could just go for full body armour and be done with it, huh?

Julia


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Perhaps women could just go for full body armour and be done with it, huh?
> 
> Julia




well, I guess its the same if you think that having a full body armour while driving instead of having a seatbelt will further minimise your chances of getting hurt in case of an accident then go for it 

as I said, its a precautionary measure to protect women IF they like to take a precautionary measure & get good points by following god's rules. 

Obviously you don't believe in taking that particular precautionary level & that's fine! Many people all over the world drive without seatbelts & still don't die, its your decision.........this is what releigon is all about......decisions 

cheers,


----------



## Prospector (29 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> as I said, its a precautionary measure to protect women IF they like to take a precautionary measure & get good points by following god's rules.




To even compare the wearing of a seat belt to avoid injury when in a car, with wearing the hijab to avoid being raped is evil.  No, that isnt even the word for it.  Cant think of anything that remotely expresses my disgust that anyone could think like that.


----------



## Kauri (29 January 2007)

Seeing as we seem to be running with the driving analogies....
  If you are wearing a seatbelt it does lessen your chances of serious injury if a speeding and /or a drunk driver hits you. Even if you are not wearing a seatbelt it is the drunk-speeding driver who is held responsible, and has his driving privileges and sometimes his liberty removed. 
  As there seems to be a group of men in our diverse society who cannot control themselves if they see a womens uncovered hair and face maybe we should help them by fitting them with *seatbelts* in the appropriate area.  
  By the way, there's nothing quite like taking responsibility for your own actions.


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Prospector said:
			
		

> To even compare the wearing of a seat belt to avoid injury when in a car, with wearing the hijab to avoid being raped is evil.  No, that isnt even the word for it.  Cant think of anything that remotely expresses my disgust that anyone could think like that.




Yes, I do agree 100% & I am MORE disgusted with the comments because that boofhead helped in destroying the image of a good reliegon.

Comparison I put is to illustrate the original meaning but of course there's no clear comparison in fundementals, unfortunately, in some parts of the world, revealing cloths do tempt some mentally ill & maniacs & in a way or another provoke them to attempt such crazy things. Generally, that is due to their very conservative thinking that were formated from thousands of years of conservatism.

Being a weak or a strong precautionary level is subject to the individual background & thinking, if it will minimise the chance of getting assaulted to 50% or 5% or even 0.0001% is subject to your surronding conditions, social values & own personal views.....but still to some extent....could be a precautionary level even if its a very low on priorities.

Again, not necesserily that a girl is wearing Hijab that she couldn't get raped, it happens almost everyday in the middleeastern & muslim countries around the world. Sometimes precautions do protect & sometimes they don't!


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Seeing as we seem to be running with the driving analogies....
> If you are wearing a seatbelt it does lessen your chances of serious injury if a speeding and /or a drunk driver hits you. Even if you are not wearing a seatbelt it is the drunk-speeding driver who is held responsible, and has his driving privileges and sometimes his liberty removed.
> As there seems to be a group of men in our diverse society who cannot control themselves if they see a womens uncovered hair and face maybe we should help them by fitting them with *seatbelts* in the appropriate area.
> By the way, there's nothing quite like taking responsibility for your own actions.






Ok, I'm not a reliegous expert & I don't want to sound like someone who'll sit down give reliegon lectures, but Men in Islam as well have restrictions in perving on women even if they're naked 

Hijab is put there to protect women from sex maniacs & lunatics, those with no values & no respect to women. Regular men should have enough respect to women to not assault them or even view them as sex object & nothing should "permit" a sexual assault or even a thought on women even if they are naked!


----------



## Kauri (29 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm not a reliegous expert & I don't want to sound like someone who'll sit down give reliegon lectures, but Men in Islam as well have restrictions in perving on women even if they're naked
> 
> Hijab is put there to protect women from sex maniacs & lunatics, those with no values & no respect to women. Regular men should have enough respect to women to not assault them or even view them as sex object & nothing should "permit" a sexual assault or even a thought on women even if they are naked!




   My point is that if women are considered at risk and need to wear seatbelts to protect themselves, then if we are really serious about it, any man who is at risk of offending if they see uncovered hair and faces should also be made to wear a seatbelt.
   I'm sure a couple of the good ladies here could "*design something appropriate".*


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> My point is that if women are considered at risk and need to wear seatbelts to protect themselves, then if we are really serious about it, any man who is at risk of offending if they see uncovered hair and faces should also be made to wear a seatbelt.
> I'm sure a couple of the good ladies here could "*design something appropriate".*




I think so as well!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 January 2007)

hypothetical.
If I go into a bank with motorcycle helmet, the screens come up.

But if I ( and here I could be a non-muslem bank robber, cunning enough to pretend to be moslem),  put on a hijab (as incidentally one of the recent pommie bombers did to temporarily get away - although later caught) , and incidentally plenty of room under dress/kaftan for weapons (which is more than can be said for a helmet) - then the screens stay down


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> hypothetical.
> If I go into a bank with motorcycle helmet, the screens come up.
> 
> But if I ( and here I could be a non-muslem bank robber, cunning enough to pretend to be moslem),  put on a hijab (as incidentally one of the recent pommie bombers did to temporarily get away - although later caught) , and incidentally plenty of room under dress/kaftan for weapons (which is more than can be said for a helmet) - then the screens stay down




I think same thing will happen if you'd wear any skiing jacket, baggy jeans, or simply pretend to be pregenant 

To be really practical, the way guns are designed these day, you could hide I think up to a dozen of guns in your normal suit jacket!!!

I see that we may say the same about nuns & priests & rabbies being at banks as well  

You remind me of a techinician I got to install a new alarm/locking system to my house that after 3 hours presentation & a price of $25k system that he presented......he ended the conversation by saying...."if someone still wanted to get inside your house & steal things....they still can"


----------



## Happy (29 January 2007)

> From ABC , January 26, 2007
> 
> Hilali's controversial comments 'misunderstood'
> 
> ...




This line of excuse looks like standard, pity it is happily accepted every time.

Now we have new issue, strict Islam superstate.


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Happy said:
			
		

> This line of excuse looks like standard, pity it is happily accepted every time.
> 
> Now we have new issue, strict Islam superstate.




Watch out people, I actually got sucked in before with the "misunderstood" excuse few times but I just read that he has some "political" ambitions.

What's he's doing is simply propaganda for himself, in many people's view, there's nothing called bad propaganda, all good!!

He's trying to get the spot light for some political ambitions, more or less he'll try to be the typical opposition of some for instance like Pauline Hanson.

We are helping his plan to be more popular by talking about him more & more & getting him on the news over & over again.


----------



## Happy (29 January 2007)

> From ABC , January 29, 2007
> 
> ISLAMIC GROUP COULD FACE LEGAL ACTION: NSW LIBERALS
> 
> ...




There was earlier another comment - quoted below, why group should not be made illegal.

This type of logic is scary.



> From ABC , January 29, 2007
> 
> BANNING MUSLIM GROUP 'WOULD BE DANGEROUS'
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (29 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> My point is that if women are considered at risk and need to wear seatbelts to protect themselves, then if we are really serious about it, any man who is at risk of offending if they see uncovered hair and faces should also be made to wear a seatbelt.
> I'm sure a couple of the good ladies here could "*design something appropriate".*



Yes, Kauri, I can visualise some very appropriate restraints indeed.

IGO4IT:  I find your comments - in addition to being distasteful as far as how women should dress or behave are concerned - rather confused.  First you appear to be an apologist for the Sheik then you appear to change your mind.

To continue the driving analogy, if we were to pursue your theory, we'd all simply stay off the road in case a drunk driver were to cause us harm.
It's a silly analogy anyway.

I wonder how women would fare were they to make a sexual assault on a bloke in some well fitting Speedos???

Julia


----------



## Taurisk (29 January 2007)

Hello
Firstly Julia - you would find it difficult to 'rape' a man, if he does not wish to do so - I thought that's obvious.

The other thought that has occurred to me consistently is that the Muslim World, quite apart from the fact that they are derived from a gentleman who had multiple wives and married his last and *child* bride at age 60, need to protect themselves from themselves rather than anybody else.  

The spectacle of winter dress on Muslim women, complete with socks and gloves in a summery Britain recently (I visited there in August/September), right next to a fairly exposed and statuesque dark-skinned beauty and her equally undressed child is laughable and makes you think.  The imposition of that dress code on their women folk is inhumane.  Also the other day I saw on the news a small child in the arms of what looked like a white basket - a person who resembled a ghost with a bit of latticework in front to allow her to breathe - now what kind of distortion is already instilled into such a small child, whether male or female, doesn't even bear thinking about.  I felt incredibly sad for that mother/child relationship.  
I believe we should do everything possible to integrate these people - seeing they are already here - possibly take our own exposure a notch down (it's not so good to expose yourself to our hot sun, anyway), but insist that they make some concessions to our dress code as well.  This can all be done legally.  The next generation will already adapt a little, although they may go the other way (as has been shown in Britain) - but I believe by the third generation you will have an integration process in place, which will slowly open their minds to our freer way of thinking and living; and eventually they will embrace it.

Those crazies with their ill-considered public statements are simply parasites who bludge off their communities and crave the exposure the media give them.  What about our media just ignoring them?  Is that an option? 

Possibly we should ask ourselves the question, what is it really that upsets them so much, has Western society gone a little too far in its freedom of expression, sexual and otherwise.  Is it time to consider family values ?? etc. etc. should we look into our own hearts for part of the answer?  
Or:  is Television to blame?  do 'they' believe everything they see on their television screens IS the Western lifestyle?  We all know, it is not, but newcomers usually live in their own enclaves and have little chance to meet and integrate with the normal community.  Should we make more of an effort to extend a welcome? 

Or if they find it impossible to adapt, arrange some sort of program whereby they can be repatriated to either their own country or a Muslim country of their choice; and be more selective and careful when screening prospective migrants to our country.

I am an older woman, but I would find it sad if our young girls and young men would have to slavishly cover their beautiful bodies - in fact I would like to see more colour and fashion sense all round.

Cheers

Taurisk


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> I think same thing will happen if you'd wear any skiing jacket, baggy jeans, or simply pretend to be pregnant
> I see that we may say the same about nuns & priests & rabbies being at banks as well



Igo,  My main point was meant to the covering of the face.
I imagine the day will come when everyone will be asked to remove head covering irrespective, so that the bank security cameras get a good look at you. . (goes for beanie, headcover inside windcheater, helmet, balaclava, etc - or hats I guess).
Nothing to do with rape obviously  - but we may all have to give up such claims to closeted personal identities when security is involved.   Personally I think it would be reasonable to let banks ask this question of patrons.  
As you know the entire hijab thing was recently a big issue in France.  (and not just for banks)


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> IGO4IT:  I find your comments - in addition to being distasteful as far as how women should dress or behave are concerned - rather confused.  First you appear to be an apologist for the Sheik then you appear to change your mind.
> 
> To continue the driving analogy, if we were to pursue your theory, we'd all simply stay off the road in case a drunk driver were to cause us harm.
> It's a silly analogy anyway.
> ...




I don't apologise for anyone because that sheikh is free to say what he sees to be correct & up to each individual to like to dislike his comments. HE should be responsible for his actions. He does NOT represent me or any muslim because he's not an elected leader by any chance. Because of the free speech environment we're living in & because of democracy, we all have to expect idiots to come up with crazy ideas for us to find out what's right & what's wrong. if we stop all those lunatics including the likes of the sheik & Pauline Hanson, then we lose the sense of what we like or dislike, this is what democracy is all about, many opinions & only 1 winner.

I don't like what he said & I don't find it appropriate to the society we're living in today in Australia but I still think that the rule of wearing a Hijab is in a way or another could be considered a precautionary step that many may like to take, its up to their individual opinion, if you don't agree with it then that's fine, it's up to you to think of the risk & consider what you think is an appropriate precaution or not.

To get off the road because you're scared of crazy people hitting you is the same as those now that get scared of planes becuase they fear them being hit into towers, some may believe that its safer to avoid catching planes after september 11th & others may think the chances are too little for it happen again! so whether you're an advocate of "take your chances" or that you'll do what you have to do or whether you need to take EVERY individual precuationary step, its up to how paranoid you are  & of course if you're a muslim, the attraction factors increase by adding few good points with god if you do it.....its totally your own opinion & decision.

cheers,


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> The other thought that has occurred to me consistently is that the Muslim World, quite apart from the fact that they are derived from a gentleman who had multiple wives and married his last and *child* bride at age 60, need to protect themselves from themselves rather than anybody else.




 Amazing info, why don't you highlight for us the circumstances for the ugly occasion or did you hear about it in talk back radio  . There are many circumstances & historical facts that you need to mention before you say the fact. Before making an opinion, make some study & argue facts....if you're not here to help damaging a reliegon's image & you want objective discussion then you should give us the full historical reason for such an occasion to happen.



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> The spectacle of winter dress on Muslim women, complete with socks and gloves in a summery Britain recently (I visited there in August/September), right next to a fairly exposed and statuesque dark-skinned beauty and her equally undressed child is laughable and makes you think.  The imposition of that dress code on their women folk is inhumane.  Also the other day I saw on the news a small child in the arms of what looked like a white basket - a person who resembled a ghost with a bit of latticework in front to allow her to breathe - now what kind of distortion is already instilled into such a small child, whether male or female, doesn't even bear thinking about.  I felt incredibly sad for that mother/child relationship.
> I believe we should do everything possible to integrate these people - seeing they are already here - possibly take our own exposure a notch down (it's not so good to expose yourself to our hot sun, anyway), but insist that they make some concessions to our dress code as well.  This can all be done legally.  The next generation will already adapt a little, although they may go the other way (as has been shown in Britain) - but I believe by the third generation you will have an integration process in place, which will slowly open their minds to our freer way of thinking and living; and eventually they will embrace it.




First of all, you're generalising by mentioning that every muslim is poor. No, some are more intellegent than me & you. Australia took only the war refugee, that's why Australia doesn't get the decent muslims here, they all go to Europe & US...if you want a proof, check out the famous Price Walid ben talal......HE OWNS 15% OF THE NASDAQ




			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> Those crazies with their ill-considered public statements are simply parasites who bludge off their communities and crave the exposure the media give them.  What about our media just ignoring them?  Is that an option?
> 
> Possibly we should ask ourselves the question, what is it really that upsets them so much, has Western society gone a little too far in its freedom of expression, sexual and otherwise.  Is it time to consider family values ?? etc. etc. should we look into our own hearts for part of the answer?
> Or:  is Television to blame?  do 'they' believe everything they see on their television screens IS the Western lifestyle?  We all know, it is not, but newcomers usually live in their own enclaves and have little chance to meet and integrate with the normal community.  Should we make more of an effort to extend a welcome?
> ...




I also find it funny for those that colour their hair pink or have 50 rings in their face & genitels, but ITS THEIR CHOICE!!! its the free world people, you get to do & wear anything you like if you're happy with it.

I don't see how you advocate freedom & still assume that everyone will like wear revealed clothing, they CHOOSE to wear these clothes & its their OWN choice. 

As for sending people home.........WHERE IS HOME????....they're Australian, like you & me, this is their home, they choose that lifestyle & that clothing... I don't see why it should annoy you for someone wearing or not wearing clothes!!!

Again, I'm very annoyed from your general view on Islam, I do understand that media had be covering the sad bad points ONLY & not interested at all in highlighting the good factors of the reliegon, but again, Islam is a reliegon & NOT a nationality, its the way you communicate to your god if you have one, whether you're a Jew, christian or Muslim, its only the way that you communicate with god which is always ......the one god....again...if many forgot.

Cheers


----------



## IGO4IT (29 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Igo,  My main point was meant to the covering of the face.
> I imagine the day will come when everyone will be asked to remove head covering irrespective, so that the bank security cameras get a good look at you. . (goes for beanie, headcover inside windcheater, helmet, balaclava, etc - or hats I guess).
> Nothing to do with rape obviously  - but we may all have to give up such claims to closeted personal identities when security is involved.   Personally I think it would be reasonable to let banks ask this question of patrons.
> As you know the entire hijab thing was recently a big issue in France.  (and not just for banks)




I'm totally againist covering the face, the % of those covering their faces is very little but for every rule there's always an exception.

Covering the face is an extreme & I don't support it by any chance & under any circumstances, I personally get scared of them when I see them down the road....but again...I go back & say who am I to tell people what to wear! 

Yes, they're dangerous & could be an excuse for many to commit many crimes under cover, I do believe that its not a part of Islam to do such a thing & only very few that do that to themselves under the name of Islam but in fact reliegon has nothing to do it.

By no meaning I would recommend that to any of my relatives or family & I would be extremely angry if my kid once decided to take such a step.

cheers,


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> & I would be extremely angry if my kid once decided to take such a step.



lol, and i'd be extremely depressed if my daughter said she wanted to become a nun  - but that's about as likely as "jonah and the whale" 
she's too busy enjoyin life  - thats her in the glider btw.


----------



## Kauri (29 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> lol, and i'd be extremely depressed if my daughter said she wanted to become a nun  - but that's about as likely as "jonah and the whale"
> she's too busy enjoyin life - thats her in the glider btw.




      The Flying Nun??


----------



## Julia (29 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> Hello
> Firstly Julia - you would find it difficult to 'rape' a man, if he does not wish to do so - I thought that's obvious.
> 
> 
> ...




Taurisk,

My comment was fairly obviously facetious.  However, if you want to take it seriously, what I mentioned was "sexual assault".  I'm sure I don't need to be graphic, but that doesn't by any means imply rape.

Julia


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> The Flying Nun??



and getting into the habit (as the bishop said to the... mother superior?).
(now now tcch tcch, we'll have nun of that !! )


----------



## Kauri (29 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> and getting into the habit (as the bishop said to the... mother superior?).
> (now now tcch tcch, we'll have nun of that !! )




   we will have nun of that bishop bashing here thanks..


----------



## Bobby (29 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Taurisk,
> 
> My comment was fairly obviously facetious.  However, if you want to take it seriously, what I mentioned was "sexual assault".  I'm sure I don't need to be graphic, but that doesn't by any means imply rape.
> 
> Julia



*YES Julia thats what I thought.* 

Taurisk, you need to clear up your comment ~ regarding Julias.

IGO4IT Hello,

Tell us what moderate Muslims are doing to curtail those who highjack your religion?

Bob.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 January 2007)

like the boy scout helps the nun across the road .. "why thank you lill boy "
that's ok lady - any friend of zorros is a friend of mine.

"it is a test of a good religion whether you can joke about it" - gk chesterton (gotta feeling he wasn't a moslem)  but who nose, I might be wrong.

I guess the joke about "the two peanuts going for a walk in the park  - and one was a salted" - wouldn't be kosker, - sexual assault is no joke - but saying that showing some skin (any skin?) gives a man freedom to exercise some totally untamed animal appetite - is a sad indictment on the moral foundations of those that proclaim it imho.


----------



## insider (29 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> Watch out people, I actually got sucked in before with the "misunderstood" excuse few times but I just read that he has some "political" ambitions.
> 
> What's he's doing is simply propaganda for himself, in many people's view, there's nothing called bad propaganda, all good!!
> 
> ...




If he is doing this for popularity... Maybe he'll be on Dancing With The Stars on 7...


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> IGO4IT Hello,
> 
> Tell us what moderate Muslims are doing to curtail those who highjack your religion?
> 
> Bob.




Hi Bobby,

We sit down & laugh when we see how many people are scared of what we know to be the very little minority extremists.

But we blame the govt mainly for funding these guys & NOT monitoring thier activities, we see total jobless & boofheads getting a lot of funding under what they call a local religeous group in which they most likely to have a dozen of people as member including their families & obviously the more of them exist the more reliegeous tutors or what they name as leaders would come around & any guy that could grow a beard comes to be a leader without anyone knowing exactly where they came from 

Now, we, moderate muslims, don't have any voice whatsoever to whom these guys hire or fire, they have their own funding from the govt & they don't ask anyone for votes when they get someone to be their public speaker.

All what we could do & I'm sure we will do, is use the democratic system we're in to vote those we believe will carry our values which mostly were labour members in the past, we....moderate muslims, are with all meaning the highest majority of muslims around the world, all those that bomb embassies & fly into twin towers are terrorists & they don't carry anything that we could relate to by any meaning.

the idea is, other than voting for who we think is moderate & can consider our little requirements in freedom sometimes, there is not much we can do.

I refuse to divide myself from normal day-to-day people by taging myself as muslim. if you think there's something we should do.....then all of us should do, the danger is againist all of us not only non muslims.

We work from 9 to 5 like anyone & reliegon for us is again a way to communicate with god & those funny guys who used to go around & ask people if they're muslim or Australian first....  ...... which one would you like me to mention first....my nationality or my reliegon.......no comparison whatsoever between one's nationality & belonging to his/her land with their religon that they use to communicate with God.

Only those that try to insert the feel in communities that Islam is againist western countries or Australia.....this is a myth...whether you believe it or not a big majority of muslims in this country may die 1 day protecting Australia if they have to, same like many christians & Jews & other religions.

cheers,


----------



## Bobby (30 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> like the boy scout helps the nun across the road .. "why thank you lill boy "
> that's ok lady - any friend of zorros is a friend of mine.
> 
> "it is a test of a good religion whether you can joke about it" - gk chesterton (gotta feeling he wasn't a moslem)  but who nose, I might be wrong.
> ...



 Please ease up with your empty posts.

I'm not the only one, sick of your Rhetoric.

Regards Bob.


----------



## insider (30 January 2007)

Here are the facts that I believe induce rape... 

Women have the Sexual power (This should be socially accepted by now). They have more power of choice than men because say 40,000 years ago there was no welfare system that can take care of them, and as a result of having a child without a father would usually result in death. Some men don't know how to relate and communicate with women so they end up frustrated and lonely. This frustration bottles up and the prehistoric urge to reproduce eventually gets the better of them and then they commit the crime of rape. 40,000 years ago if a tribesman tried to get with a girl taken by someone else then the result would be a violent caveman clubbing where one would end up dead. This is why men find it hard to approach women... All these caveman urges are hard wired in us all and exist!!!

In the year 1750 there were only 170,000,000 human beings on earth now there is 6,500,000,000. What i'm trying to say is humans are really out of date machines in a world that grows too fast for us to keep up with... 

That is why rape is condemned by law... And gentlemen, a girl is never a b*#@% because she rejected you. She rejected you because you didn't have a good enough personality and demonstrated enough value to her. So men improve yourselves, don't hit on girls until you befriend her friends first and don't buy them drinks please, they don't like it and most will take advantage of it... I would if were a girl... lol


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 January 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Please ease up with your empty posts.
> I'm not the only one, sick of your Rhetoric.
> Regards Bob.



ok, I'll do what you do, bob, and ask a question - (mind you, brilliant reply from igo)

Is my last sentence rhetoric?

you havent been following, have you bob 
there was an exchange of posts between kauri and myself.
but I'll try to remember not to joke when I know you might read them - nor to quote chesterton on the principle of strength being whether or not you can laugh at yourself 
ps do you usually insult someone , then add "regards" ?- nice one 

can I guess you don't agree with one of my posts, but prefer a vague attack instead.
.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 January 2007)

bob, forgot to mention..
I was reminded of that peanut joke by julia and taurisk arguing about whether women could rape/sexually assault men.  (maybe I should have said so when i posted it) - but i wont go there, obviously rhetoric. (and water under the bridge as far as im concerned)


----------



## Bobby (30 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> ok, I'll do what you do, bob, and ask a question - (mind you, brilliant reply from igo)
> 
> Is my last sentence rhetoric?
> 
> ...



Sheezz, its not about attacking you ?  your a bore' thats you , Huge number of silly posts .

Now you take care .
Bob.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 January 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Sheezz, its not about attacking you ?  your a bore' thats you , Huge number of silly posts .Now you take care .Bob.



ahh well, some of us have to be bores - to make up for those who are life of the party i guess


----------



## Happy (30 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> Hi Bobby,
> 
> We sit down & laugh when we see how many people are scared of what we know to be the very little minority extremists.
> 
> ...





It is delicate issue, and any person from outside of any group, first of all is seen as an enemy.

People, who are from the same group, don’t have easier task either as they are seen as traitors.

Democracy is fertile ground for vocal minorities and this is the greatest thereat.

One almost philosophical comment is fairly accurate –
Democracy is all the bad things, until you consider the alternatives.


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Happy said:
			
		

> It is delicate issue, and any person from outside of any group, first of all is seen as an enemy.
> 
> People, who are from the same group, don’t have easier task either as they are seen as traitors.
> 
> ...




Democracy in actual stripped fact, a ground in which all ideas (before making any judgement on any of them) could grow & to be promoted, practically its the white board for all sad minds & also genious thinkings.

Within a democratic ground, there is the govt, opposition & a third power that is very vital......its the media....this is the way we get to know about all the different ideas & then make up our minds.

Since media is not 100% objective in some sense, putting away any hidden agenda's or any consipiracy theories that many talk about in terms of owners of media outlets, we can simply say that media is not just reporting facts as it used to be around 30-40 years ago. Media now plays a major role in diverting crowds attention to many directions that could influence their decision of what's an appropriate idea & what's not.

In some sense, it defeats the purpose of having a free objective atmosphere if the 3rd force in a democracy is biased or not willing to give free opportunity to each speaker regardless of what they say. 

so if we keep hearing what we like to hear only & blow away anyone with a crazy idea, then we go back to the dark ages of communism or Monarchy. We have to realise that a discussion must have more than 1 person speaking & the more contributions we get & the more speakers, the better the discussion & the richer the outcome of it.


----------



## imajica (30 January 2007)

I agree that the core of the democratic process lies within the freedom of the individual to express his/her opinions in an egalitarian environment - however if these comments are mysogynistic, defamatory or marginalising to other members of the community then I believe they should be held accountable - the easiest way to reduce the perceived power of these so-called leaders - is to completely ignore what they say - to discuss these people's ideas  in forums or to represent them in the media only elevates them to celebrity status and gives them far more credence than they deserve


----------



## Taurisk (30 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Perhaps women could just go for full body armour and be done with it, huh?
> 
> Julia




You make me laugh, Julia! 
I have thought that I had little prejudice but when it comes to the way women are regarded in the Muslim world I get physically uncomfortable; I don't want those attitudes imported into our lovely country.  This religion is anti-feminist, medieval, and unsuitable to a modern democracy, because it does not understand the basics of what human brother- and sisterhood means.  It makes me sad that we are having those sorts of discussions in the early 21st century.  

Taurisk


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> You make me laugh, Julia!
> I have thought that I had little prejudice but when it comes to the way women are regarded in the Muslim world I get physically uncomfortable; I don't want those attitudes imported into our lovely country.  This religion is anti-feminist, medieval, and unsuitable to a modern democracy, because it does not understand the basics of what human brother- and sisterhood means.  It makes me sad that we are having those sorts of discussions in the early 21st century.
> 
> Taurisk




A little clarification Taurisk, what's currently implemented in the Arab world in NOT derived by muslim laws.

Arab world holds a lot of baggage of thousands of years of traditions & uneducation & they have nothing to do with Muslim rules. The level of corruption & anti-social values they hold has nothing to do with the reliegon that promotes peace & equality & freedom of speech.

Physically, there's no such a thing as "Muslim world" or even "Muslim countries", as there no such a country on our planet that is implementing the muslim ruling 100% so far......if you find such a country then pls let me know, because there isn't any!

Islam, the reliegon, is simply a reliegon that you (as a person) may like to follow or not follow. Govts on the other hand, may choose to follow (SOME) of its ruling to make it a general law but no existing govt could implement that whole system as reliegon doesn't have a govt system, a reliegon is only a way an INDIVIDUAL is to communicate with his/her God.

If you're scared that muslims will take over our nice world then don't worry, those in power everywhere in the world are not interested in your country & their reliegon doesn't tell them to go & attack others. If you're scared of few dozens or even thousands that may terrorise you & other muslims as well, then you have the right to be scared. Use your civilised brain in identify them, ask the question why they hate us, fix the problem & you're done!

By the way, another myth I have to mention that those terrorists hate other religons just for the sake of it , No ..... these guys look around & they lose cousins, brothers, sisters & parents by Western bombing in Palastine, Bosnia, Iraq & guess what.......you'll probably feel the same way if you lost any member of your family by any force of the world!, as for those that claim that they hate your lovely civilised world, this is just an excuse because if you stop bombing their houses & killing them......they may start to like you   

Once again, a woman is respected & treated preciously in Islam (the reliegon) a lot more than what current human rights or women rights give to women or individuals. You just need to research before making an opinion & I repeat, no current govt had succeeded in establishing a full islamic state with full islamic laws, that's why we can't use any example of how women are treated in other countries.

You watch too much TV with no actual research & I guess that it proves my point that media is interested in showing only 1 side of the story to the western world.


----------



## Taurisk (30 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> A little clarification Taurisk, what's currently implemented in the Arab world in NOT derived by muslim laws.
> 
> Arab world holds a lot of baggage of thousands of years of traditions & uneducation & they have nothing to do with Muslim rules. ......... there's no such a thing as "Muslim world" or even "Muslim countries" ........
> Islam, the reliegon, is simply a reliegon that you (as a person) may like to follow or not follow..........
> ...




Hi GO4IT

Sorry, I cut your quotes down for convenience' sake.
I assume you live here as well?  and take part in the democratic process etc.?
I don't agree with our government supporting the present regime in the U.S. -but I have the ballot box to put that right.  Yes, I do watch TV, but I also read books, have friends from all over the world (only one North African muslim over in England, who is lovely and modern).  
I do agree there are very real grievances with the way power politics is being played out in the Middle East, by mostly the U.S. and its allies, but the Saudis were quite happy to encourage them for decades - and still do.   It upsets me that it all happens in the name of 'democracy' - it is very wrong.  But we all know it is really all about oil, don't we? 
At the same time I also take note of a legal system that will accuse a woman of fornication, when she has been raped, requiring her to have 4 male witnesses, only to be condemned by the court anyway.  You call that honouring your womenfolk?  I have also seen little Arab boys on airoplanes being totally disrespectful with their mothers - the stewards had to call them to order.  

As to clothes: 
When I came to Australia, I only wore my national outfit (dirndl) and my husband wore his lederhosen in a social club from our own ethnic background, never out in the street.  We wore the clothes everybody else was wearing, because we wished to fit in.   It's simply ignorant not to do as the locals do.

I won't even go into Muhammed's life story, because he did live a long time ago and people did behave differently, and I feel he is being vilified on the net quite a bit.  The true facts of his life will never be verified, yet we do know that he allowed himself certain sexual freedoms that he would not allow his fellows, and always found a nice sura or revelation to justify it.  He was also a great leader and probably very necessary at that particular time of Arab history.  He was the one that wrote the sura about a paradise for men were there were numerous beautiful women awaiting them, captive inside little palaces, inside a perl etc..  No mention what rewards await women.

If you don't like the Western world or way, please book your paid tickets to a part of the world that's more amenable  to yours.  If you live here, you have to take the modern (Western) world as it is with all its faults, its unlimited personal freedoms (you don't have to accept them for yourself) its motor cars, its political struggles for dominance over that precious substance that runs the motor cars and industry  which gives us and you a great living standard.  There is also the possibility that you might want to work towards a better version of democracy here, by voting; there is also the possibility that you engage yourself in a meaningful way for an alternative lifestyle that is ecologically less damaging.  For example:  do you drive a petrol-driven motor car, or have you looked at alternatives? 

Of course, I also have a Darwinian outlook.  Nature abhors a vacuum and nature always has alternative pathways and byways.  Our way has become too invasive, too greedy of resources, too aggressive, so:  those 'Allah' shouting masked maniacs are probably the alternative we all stare in the face each night when we watch the news, and we feel uneasy and cannot really love what we see.

I am, however, an optimist and I hope that not the extremists but the ordinary people of the world will prevail, and that we will solve all our more urgent problems as well.

Take care
Taurisk


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> Hi GO4IT
> 
> 
> I assume you live here as well?  and take part in the democratic process etc.?
> ...





I'm positive you're confused between a woman who tries to prove that it was raped & someone who tries to prove adultry.

A woman DOESN'T need witnesses to show that she was raped anywhere in the world. she need medical checks & a DNA test . Not sure where you got your info from. This is totally incorrect.



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> As to clothes:
> When I came to Australia, I only wore my national outfit (dirndl) and my husband wore his lederhosen in a social club from our own ethnic background, never out in the street.  We wore the clothes everybody else was wearing, because we wished to fit in.   It's simply ignorant not to do as the locals do.




You had the freedom to wear what you wanted to wear even if it was your normal clothes or others in your own preferred time. why do you deny others the freedom to wear what they like? isn't this the FREE WORLD!



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> I won't even go into Muhammed's life story, because he did live a long time ago and people did behave differently, and I feel he is being vilified on the net quite a bit.  The true facts of his life will never be verified, yet we do know that he allowed himself certain sexual freedoms that he would not allow his fellows, and always found a nice sura or revelation to justify it.  He was also a great leader and probably very necessary at that particular time of Arab history.  He was the one that wrote the sura about a paradise for men were there were numerous beautiful women awaiting them, captive inside little palaces, inside a perl etc..  No mention what rewards await women..




Amazing info, Muhammed lived 1400 years ago, ONLY 600 after Jesus. Not much difference in time & or even geographical location. 

the true facts of his life is verfied & in more details thru many of his followers (same as Jesus students) & their writings of his teaching & different occasions. Muslims call that Ahadeeth, its more or less the equivalent the gospels, except that those stories mentioned by Muhammed's students were seperated from the holy book (Quran), which Muslims believe it was clear msg from God & no one helped in phrasing or inventing its words.

Muhammed did tell his followers, 1400yo, who were getting killed by non-believers, that if they were killed for the reason for thier faith, which was happening, that they'll get to heaven with all its girls & guys & the whole lot , or if they get killed, defending their land or family, then they get to the same end. Pls remember, they ran away from their home land because non-believers at the time destroyed their houses & took thier wives & kids as slaves! This is nothing that could upset anyone.



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> If you don't like the Western world or way, please book your paid tickets to a part of the world that's more amenable  to yours.  If you live here, you have to take the modern (Western) world as it is with all its faults, its unlimited personal freedoms (you don't have to accept them for yourself) its motor cars, its political struggles for dominance over that precious substance that runs the motor cars and industry  which gives us and you a great living standard.  There is also the possibility that you might want to work towards a better version of democracy here, by voting; there is also the possibility that you engage yourself in a meaningful way for an alternative lifestyle that is ecologically less damaging.  For example:  do you drive a petrol-driven motor car, or have you looked at alternatives?




I do like your way of life & I live here in Australia, its you that don't want me here because of my clothing  do you call that civilisation.

The only difference between you & me is that I like your freedom & I don't think you have clear understanding to what freedom is all about. You think because I don't wear same clothes as you then I should go & find somewhere else to live??????? is that your defenition of freedom & democracy????? I'm amazed to you're even a member in a stock forum


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> If you don't like the Western world or way, please book your paid tickets to a part of the world that's more amenable  to yours.  If you live here, you have to take the modern (Western) world as it is with all its faults, its unlimited personal freedoms (you don't have to accept them for yourself) its motor cars, its political struggles for dominance over that precious substance that runs the motor cars and industry  which gives us and you a great living standard.  There is also the possibility that you might want to work towards a better version of democracy here, by voting; there is also the possibility that you engage yourself in a meaningful way for an alternative lifestyle that is ecologically less damaging.  For example:  do you drive a petrol-driven motor car, or have you looked at alternatives?





Did you read any of my other posts at all?

I know more about democracy possibly more than you, I (as a person) most likely pay more taxes than your whole street   , I'm not proud of it though.

& finally, I don't go & tell people to go & find other countries to suit them when they disagree with me   

cheers & read previous posts if you care to learn more.


----------



## Taurisk (30 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> I'm positive you're confused between a woman who tries to prove that it was raped & someone who tries to prove adultry.
> 
> A woman DOESN'T need witnesses to show that she was raped anywhere in the world. she need medical checks & a DNA test . Not sure where you got your info from. This is totally incorrect.
> 
> ...




Hi GO4IT

Weeelllll, all that huffing and puffing ...  
You are a bit of a choleric, aren't you?   
I actually thought we were talking in a general way, and the problems of integration into Australian society of certain groups of migrants with errant and tactless leaders.

The rape story was a recent court case in Pakistan, for all to see, on the news, and every so often the story of dishonoured brothers, fathers or husbands pop up who have killed a close female relative for their honour's sake - nice, eh?  

I do not believe that God is so interested in our fates that he goes and tells us down to the last detail what to do.  All our holy books, whether it's the Bible or the Koran, are either historical records and are written down by people, poets and wonderful writers one and all, who claim they've had revelations, funnily enough they were mostly men, who seem to have a vast need to be important.  

You pay more tax than my whole street????  You must be important!!  I shall prostrate myself!
BTW I also still pay a fair amount of tax, and have all my life!  and 
I hope your head dress - against the wearing of which in public I have absolutely no objection to -  is as becoming as your icon, 
it's the face I'm not sure about,  hmmmm  - too much aggression. 

T.


----------



## Agentm (30 January 2007)

should the title read religous zealots condemn eachother?

should we not respect ones right to believe whatever one chooses? so much talk about freedom, rights and religion and not a single sign of it, only intollerance.

apathy is an ugly trait. ignorance is also....

what chance does the subject of this thread have with all this happening in a forum?


----------



## IGO4IT (30 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> The rape story was a recent court case in Pakistan, for all to see, on the news, and every so often the story of dishonoured brothers, fathers or husbands pop up who have killed a close female relative for their honour's sake - nice, eh?




I don't see any relation to some maniac killing someone for their honour & how its related to Islam? if you predict that because he's in Pakistan then you should differentiate between "culture" & "Reliegon". No releigon in the world will tell anyone to kill anyone else....I thought you'd figured that one out already 



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> I do not believe that God is so interested in our fates that he goes and tells us down to the last detail what to do.  All our holy books, whether it's the Bible or the Koran, are either historical records and are written down by people, poets and wonderful writers one and all, who claim they've had revelations, funnily enough they were mostly men, who seem to have a vast need to be important.




Again, whether you're a believer of the existance of god or not, its totally your choice. But don't blame others for having different beliefs to you!



			
				Taurisk said:
			
		

> You pay more tax than my whole street????  You must be important!!  I shall prostrate myself!
> BTW I also still pay a fair amount of tax, and have all my life!  and
> I hope your head dress - against the wearing of which in public I have absolutely no objection to -  is as becoming as your icon,
> it's the face I'm not sure about,  hmmmm  - too much aggression.




You told me before to try to integerate & I'm showing you a proof that we contribute to the democratic system & we're not just users to the system & plenty others do as well & vote like normal Australians. 

What's wrong with my picture??       this is a pharoah's picture ....yes... they were NOT muslims & they were covering their hair   may be pharoahs shouldn't be allowed in Australia.


----------



## Taurisk (30 January 2007)

Come on mate - a bit of a sense of humour is a good for the heart!

I knew the Egyptians pharaos names by heart when I was 14 years old.
which one is he?

Taurisk


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 January 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> We sit down & laugh when we see how many people are scared of what we know to be the very little minority extremists.
> 
> But we blame the govt mainly for funding these guys & NOT monitoring thier activities, .... & any guy that could grow a beard comes to be a leader without anyone knowing exactly where they came from



Igo, are you saying that extremist groups would starve on the vine if it weren't for govt funding?  Being a bit optimistic there I think   

At the risk of offending my new friend Bob, I also pay more tax than the rest of the street, but then again, Im the only honest one, and most of my neighbours are tax dodgers.


----------



## IGO4IT (31 January 2007)

Taurisk said:
			
		

> Come on mate - a bit of a sense of humour is a good for the heart!
> 
> I knew the Egyptians pharaos names by heart when I was 14 years old.
> which one is he?
> ...




Apparaently, or at least that's what was written next to the picture , it's Ramsis. 

I love Pharonic civilisations & actually love reading about both Pharoahs & Romans, amazing steps these guys took in an era where nothing was given to them at all, they had to invent it all from scratch.

Cheers,


----------



## IGO4IT (31 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Igo, are you saying that extremist groups would starve on the vine if it weren't for govt funding?  Being a bit optimistic there I think




At least, it will filter the number of these funny groups to only those who can afford to finance themselves, which in theory shouldn't be many at all.

Believe it or not, these guys would be out getting university degrees & learning trades & most likely be useful people if they had no other choice & govt funding for these organisations was monitored or based on the viability of their programs rather than just to distribute an allocated budget to whom should apply for a program to show tax payers than govt is commited in supported minorities & multiple reliegons.

What's more important than cutting funding is actually REGULATING the religious community programs, we need regulations to disallow anyone to teach our juniors all these crazy ideas regardless of reliegon. There must be a a regulatory body which has the power to license those in all these community programs & monitor their activities regularly.......same like Dept of fair trading which license electricians, carpenters or any proffession..... if these trades people fail to comply with certain quality requirements within their proffession then they lose their license to operate.

cheers,


----------



## insider (31 January 2007)

Igoforit is right about the removal of welfare to a degree... The fact I couldn't get Centerlink student payments, given my circumstances, made me want to learn about making money. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and then I got into the stockmarket... Having Frustration can be a positive energy for development...

The reality is people don't appreciate anything that comes easy to them and only what they earned...


----------



## Taurisk (3 February 2007)

IGO4IT said:
			
		

> Apparaently, or at least that's what was written next to the picture , it's Ramsis.
> 
> I love Pharonic civilisations & actually love reading about both Pharoahs & Romans, amazing steps these guys took in an era where nothing was given to them at all, they had to invent it all from scratch.
> 
> Cheers,




Hi IGO

Thanks for that - although I doubt anyone knows what Ramses really looked like, so it's a bit of an invention - I suspect the pharaos and their queens were quite serene creatures.  My interest began when I began visiting an art museum in Vienna, as a young teenager and I was fascinated by the artefacts of that old civilisation.  They've got a great Egyptian collection at the 'Kunsthistorische Museum; and the rooms were decorated by the young Gustav Klimt (Viennese painter from the turn of last century - his most famous painting is 'the Kiss') - so it's a very aesthetic environment.

The Romans are also fascinating (the Greeks laid out the groundwork for them) - not a city in Europe or Northern Africa that doesn't have a bit of Rome somewhere in its substrata.  Did you watch the recent TV series 'Rome'?  A bit of a phantasy, I daresay, but probably close to the spirit, if we can still say such a thing 2000 years after the event. 

Cheers
Taurisk


----------



## nomore4s (9 March 2009)

*Re:  Incest victim's mothers, doctors excommunicated over abortion*

Old thread but didn't want to start a new one. Different religion and slightly different circumstances but.....

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25158911-663,00.html

This is what truly annoys me about religion.

They excommunicate the mother and Doctor of a 9yo girl for performing the abortion but the man who raped her and got her pregnant is allowed to stay in the church - WTF? And they wonder why the church attracts so many paedophiles.

Yeah thats the kind of God I want to worship - not.


----------



## Happy (9 March 2009)

Flat Earth and they also supported witches, luckily tune was changed.
What is frightening that progress is so slow.

However in this case there is no argument that rape is OK, argument is about right to life, which is so twisted that is beyond belief.


----------

