# Coping with mental illness and depression



## jman2007 (18 February 2008)

Hi all,

This is a really sensitive subject for a lot of people, especially for those who have been down this path, such as myself. I would understand if those of you who have experienced it might not want to talk about it, but I figured I would at least try to broach the subject on ASF, since there seem to be some good people on the forum.

I think the recent high profile and public admission from NZ cricketer Lou Vincent that he is battling depression, and Shaun Taits unusual withdrawal from the game made me realise that mental illness knows no bounds, and can affect anyone.

Well during May last year I was diagnosed with depression.  At first I first I thought I was just having some "bad" days and was feeling a bit "stressed out", and that I would soon regain my old zing.  I guess it was a combination of things that led up to it in hindsight. I had just moved to WA at the start of 2007, started a new job and realised I wasn't coping very well.  I was having problems with people at my old work, and was frustrated at my lack of social networking success at the time.  I picked up cigarettes thinking they would relax me but it didn't help, and I was having problems sleeping and became very moody. I became aware of a horrible crushing sensation developing around me, and that I was in the bottom of some dark hole with no way out.  At this point I had no idea what was happening to me.

It all came to a head one night when I was out ordering a pizza, and basically just collapsed in the shop, my body completely gave out on me.  I was taken my ambo to hospital, absolutely terrified.  When I was discharged and went home the next day, I basically just stayed in bed for a week, not wanting to talk to anyone, and only leaving my room for occassional meals.  After 1 week, I tried to go out and do normal things such as go to the supermarket and the movies, but suffered severe panic attacks when trying to interact with people in very basic ways, such as paying the bill at the checkout.

It was at this point I realised something was very wrong with me and decided I had to get help.  I talked through with my doctor what was happening to me, and he recommended I get counselling, and start a course of medication.  The next few weeks were terrible, the side-effects from the drugs unpredictable and work increasingly hard to deal with.  I gave one days notice and resigned due to health reasons and took 3 weeks off.  Little by little, I began to come out of my shell again, I didn't do much, just started getting a little exercise here and there,  but began to be able to hold converstions with people again.

After about a month I felt sufficiently improved to be able to look for work again, and managed to do so rather easily, much more so than I would have thought.  Now, 8 months or so later, I still love my job, and am geting regular exercise and I feel I am making huge progress.  I used to be a fanatical mountain biker, rock climber and mountaineer, and I'm currently training towards completing a solo alpine route in the Alps in NZ this winter. I think once I accomplish this goal, I will be able to say I am back to my old self with a degree of confidence that was completely lacking last year.

Looking back, that dark period in my life was one of the hardest and scariest things I ever went through. I still find it hard to talk about it, but perhaps sharing it with others through writing about it will be easier.  One of the things I thought when I was ill, was that there was no-one who could help me and who could understand what I was going through. But now I understand that there are a lot of people who struggle with this in silence, fighting their own battles, and if you are...well I understand, because I've been there too.

Cheers
jman

(PS On a lighter note, when I was diagnosed with depression I joined ASF, I hope there is no connection here! (joke LOL!))


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## barrett (18 February 2008)

Good on you for sharing your experience jman, that takes some guts.  Most people affected haven't come to terms/resolved these issues like you have, your post can turn some lives around.  This is the right place to talk about it too, these issues are unusually common among market traders (read an article on this last year, will try and find the link).  Jesse Livermore the best known example of course, greatest trader of all time etc.. 
I have helped two partners and two relatives with mental health challenges ranging from mild to very serious.  At least anxiety and depression can be treated and back to normal.. the main thing is for people to put their hand up. Cheers


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## 2BAD4U (18 February 2008)

The two things that helped me were talking about it (admitting the problem) and exercise. That was about 10 years ago and every now and again the problems start to come up again but the difference is this time I know what's happening so I deal with it better, but not always as sometimes there might be something new to deal with or something that you react to in a way you never have before.

Haven't been on medication for about 9 years now and when things do get bad I go for a run or bike ride.

Well done jman, this thread shows you are well down the path to recovery but it will be a long journey but you will be prepared for any of the bad times now.


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## Happy (18 February 2008)

I do not want to trivialise the issue, but noticed that exercise was mentioned as part of the solution to recovery.

So prevention could be the same, just bit of exercise as good start.

Maybe topped up with good diet, maybe supported by good life habits like trying to avoid any bad habits.


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## moneyslave (18 February 2008)

so is depression a mental illness?

cause im depressed because of my stocks n to be told im also mentally ill is terrorific


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## Trembling Hand (18 February 2008)

moneyslave said:


> cause im depressed because of my stocks n to be told im also mentally ill is terrorific




Yes but at least you can sell out of your depression the real stuff is a little harder to deal with I would think.


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## SGB (18 February 2008)

moneyslave said:


> so is depression a mental illness?
> 
> cause im depressed because of my stocks n to be told im also mentally ill is terrorific




The DSM-IV diagnosis for major depression requires the presence of five of the following symptoms for at least two weeks.

-Sad, depressed mood, most of the day, nearly every day.

-Loss of interest and pleasure in usual activities.

-Loss of energy, having fatigue.

-Poor appetite and weight loss, or increased appetite and weight gain.

-Loss of concentration, such as slowed thinking and indecisiveness.

-Shift in activity level, becoming either lethargic or agitated.

-Difficulties in sleeping; not falling asleep initially, not returning to sleep after awakening in the middle of the night, and early morning awakenings; or in some individuals, a desire to sleep a great deal of time.

-Negative self concept; self approach and self blame; feeling of worthlessness and guit.

-Recurrent thoughts of death or suicide.

Some of the Treatments that are currently available for Major Depression include,

*Physical treatment:* Medication, Electroconvulsive Therapy ( extreme cases)

*Psychotherapy:* Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (popular), Interpersonal Therapy, Existentialism, Psychoanalytic (Freud) Gastalt, Family Systems Therapy and so on.

*Hospitalisation:* Severe Depression, Intentional harm to self and others.

*Community:* Support groups, self help education.


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## noirua (18 February 2008)

Spike Milligan was a comedian, writer and musician. He often visited Australia and appeared in programmes "The Idiot Weekly" and "Bobby Limb".  A suspension bridge linking Woy Woy and Gosford, NSW Central Coast, was named after him. 

Spike Milligan was known as a manic depressive and suffered with bipolar disorder most of his life. He suffered at least ten major mental breakdowns, several lasting longer than a year. 

He described his illness as: "I have got so low I have asked to be hospitalised and for deep narcosis (sleep).
I cannot stand being awake. The pain is too much...
Someting has happened to me, this vital spark has stopped burning - I go to the dinner table now and I don't say a word, just sit there like a dodo.
Normally I am the centre of attention and keep the conversation going - so that is depression itself.
It's like another person taking over, very strange.
The most important thing I say is "good evening" and then go quiet."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_Milligan


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## korrupt_1 (18 February 2008)

Great thread!

Thumbs up for sharing your experience.  I'm sure there are some reading this forum who maybe in depression but have not realised it... maybe reading your post will trigger to them that they should get some help.

Let me share mine..., I was fairly depressed and lost when i was forced to close a significant amount of holdings for a big loss last August. i was in denial for a few days afterwards, but eventually, I knew I had a mild problem when I started to get really withdrawn from the things around me. Didn't talk much, called in sick all the time, couldn't eat or sleep, felt like the biggest loser to walk the planet, I was snappy at people, and my work was really not up to scratch. What made it worse was that the market eventually recovered and i would have been square - It just compounded my problems. I blamed God for my demise and hated everything. Things were going down hill fast!

I never got professional help, but the fact that I realised what was happening to me, I snapped out of it - cold turkey style... it just hit me one day and said... I can't go on like this anymore... at first, I accepted everything that has happened to me and knew that things could get worse if I didn't do something... alot was on the line (family, life, etc...) 

I guess the first step into recovery is realising the problems...

I'm ok now,... back to 99% of my old self. The one thing that really helped me was my baby son... everytime I look at him, all my worries goes and he lights up my life like a beacon of hope...


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## Kimosabi (18 February 2008)

For anyone suffering with Depression or any other disease for that matter, I would recommend that they switch to Raw Fruit and Veges, preferably organic, get some spirulina and chlorella and Nutritional Yeast or non-active Saccharomyces cervisiae Nutritional Yeast if you can get it which is chockers full or Bioavailable B Vitamins.

Juicing is best or blend fruit/veges adding the spirulina, chlorella and yeast to the brew and chug it down in the morning.

Also start drinking steam distilled water, which will help leach all of the inorganic minerals that have built up in your body.

Do the above for a week or two, it may make you feel worse initially, but this is because your body is detoxing, but after a week or two you'll start to feeling great, you'll start loosing weight, you'll start feeling lighter and you'll start feeling younger, do the above for a few months and you'll start feeling great.

I'd also recommend doing your Colon, Liver, Kidney, Gall Bladder, etc cleanses to help your body get rid of the crap that has been building up in your body which is contribution to sickness and depression.

Also, don't forget exercise and get out in the sun, the sun is great for your body.

For more info go here ==> http://members.tripod.com/healingtools/DS_pages.html

Now before anyone starts bleeting that I don't know what I'm talking about, I've done the above and I personally lost 10 kg's in 6 weeks (100 - 90kg's) on the fruit/vege/superfood blends. I have been off all Pharma Drugs including Asthma Medications which I had been dependant on for 30 year and I feel about 5 years younger.

The key to beating ALL Disease including Depression is eating Locally Grown, Raw Organic Fruit and Vegetables.

Now as far as anti-depressants are concerned, I would avoid them like the plague. They are some nasty ****.

At the end of the day you've got to do your own research and make your own decisions, I'm just passing on what's worked for me.


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## Pager (18 February 2008)

Its not only the person suffering from depression that’s affected often it has an impact on their whole family.

I grew up with a father who suffered from depression, to see someone sink so low and withdraw for no apparent reason is very hard, you feel helpless at times and to a degree they may not realize it but they pull you down with them, he pulled out of it or maybe more to the point came to terms with it and didn’t let it take control, took a while but to all those who suffer from the black dog as Winston Churchill called it, he himself a sufferer, don’t give up, it can be overcome not in hours or days but sometimes it can take years.

Thankfully in my adult life ive had no problems with depression, been through some fairly bleak times in the market and had the feelings a lot of us get when the market is going down, bad luck, everything is against me, wanting to give up etc etc, remember too well when Sons of Gwalia went belly up, at the time I lost the equivalent of 6 months salary and felt physically sick when I heard it had gone under, was at my lowest then and was all set to throw in the towel, actually stopped trading and investing totally and left the shares I was holding were they were, fortunately a few years on and I had made it all back and considerably more., time is a great healer, trading in shares, futures options can be very rewarding but with that reward comes risk and I think everyone of us who partakes in the market is going to get stung at some point.

In the current shake out im waiting for the suspended Allco finance to report amid rumors its in serious trouble, this time im prepared for the worse and if the worse happens then I will take a significant hit and I will just have to get over it, that’s life and im not alone there’s a string of stocks and no doubt plenty of people that have been slammed and no doubt feeling the blues, Centro, Credit Corp. etc etc, not too mention all those who have had margin calls and are way out of pocket.

If you are caught, easy to say but dont let the black dog get control.


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## nioka (18 February 2008)

When the world wearies and life doesn't satisfy there is always the garden.( and it works).


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## jman2007 (18 February 2008)

barrett said:


> Good on you for sharing your experience jman, that takes some guts.  Most people affected haven't come to terms/resolved these issues like you have, your post can turn some lives around.  This is the right place to talk about it too, these issues are unusually common among market traders (read an article on this last year, will try and find the link).  Jesse Livermore the best known example of course, greatest trader of all time etc..
> I have helped two partners and two relatives with mental health challenges ranging from mild to very serious.  At least anxiety and depression can be treated and back to normal.. the main thing is for people to put their hand up. Cheers




Thanks for the feedback Barrett,

Thankfully no-one in my family has suffered depression in the past (not that I know of anyway), which I imagine would have been a massive strain on yourself, your partner(s) and close relatives.  

I never really considered traders to be more susceptible than other working-type people, but you may well be right, in a high pressure environment we sometimes try to put our work ahead of our own well-being.  One thing I have learnt from it is to be thankful of the things we normally take for granted, such as my health, both mental and physical.  Because if you don't have good health, everything in your life will suffer.

Cheers
jman


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## annalivia (18 February 2008)

Kimosabi said:


> Now as far as anti-depressants are concerned, I would avoid them like the plague. They are some nasty ****.




As a sufferer of Depression I think comments like this shouldn't be thrown around willy nilly.

Depression is a complicated/complex issue that needs to be discussed with the appropriate people. Find a doctor that you like and trust and discuss the pros and cons of anti-depressants with him/her. In my opininion they have their place in treatment but can also sometimes make things worse.

For what it's worth my latest thoughts on the subject are that clinical depression is a disease and should be treated as such. 
People with a diseased heart wouldn't stop taking their heart medicine why should people with depression stop taking their anti-depressants if they are helping. Obviously if they are having adverse effects that is another story.

I have been in and out of therapy for years trying to get to the bottom of why I get depressed with no answers. I have a wonderful life and do not have any real reason to get depressed. 

I am losing a bit of money at the moment on CCP and don't give a **** as I am not clinically depressed.

Think of your biggest loss on the market and how you felt. Multiply that by 1000 and you might start to get a little close to how clinical depression actually feels.


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## Nyden (18 February 2008)

Yes, I suffer from numerous afflictions.

Depression, Generalized anxiety, Bi-polar, OCD, & to top it off a hint of a personality disorder.

But, it seems to be all intertwined ; as when I feel happy, I'm no longer anxious, obsessive, or malicious.

I have been out of the rough patch for a while now; not as a result of medication (I found it absolutely awful; the side-effects ...), but just eating healthy,  not fretting over the future, vitamins & fish oil seems to help (placebo, anyone? 

I tried psychotherapy for a while ... didn't find it beneficial, it actually made things worse for me, triggered anger I guess. All of my problems stem from hurt / anger ... awful childhood, I actually envy those who actually feel love for their family, love was an emotion up until recently I had never felt!

For well over 6 years I wanted to die, I guess you could say I tried a couple of times as well; yeah, life hasn't been all that swell!

For those who have seen my usual posts, you'll be shocked to see me talking seriously! : Humour has always been a mask to hide the sad feelings, even though I'm no longer really sad ... I guess the humour stuck around!


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## jman2007 (18 February 2008)

Happy said:


> I do not want to trivialise the issue, but noticed that exercise was mentioned as part of the solution to recovery.
> 
> So prevention could be the same, just bit of exercise as good start.
> 
> Maybe topped up with good diet, maybe supported by good life habits like trying to avoid any bad habits.




Interesting Happy,

I have heard from some health professionals that regular exercise over the long-term can have the same health effects as the most potent anti-depressant on the market, open to debate probably.  I am also trying to eat a lot of veges and fresh fruit, and avoid overly processed foods.

jman


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## Spaghetti (18 February 2008)

I had a rough patch though was triggered by a trauma. I was on some medication for about 5 weeks then my doctor said "get over it". The counsellor that spoke to me was appalled at what had happened to me and re-inforced my excuse to continue into depression. So I am with Nyden on that. Counselling can be negative. It would depend on case by case but in my case the best advise ( after adequate time to heal ) was from the doctor. Get over it. I thought yes, so started to paint the house, quit my job (cause of stress), took a long holiday and considered my mental health instead of my financial health for the first time in many years.

The doctor said we all have fight or flight re-action to trauma and I had fight. However this inbuilt mechanism was for humans in caveman days when fight would be over when either you killed the scary mega beast or it killed you. Humans have not yet adapted to ongoing stress from modern life where you can be in a stress state for years. Very unhealthy.

So I eat well now, still maybe too many wines but at least they have a side of fish and vegetables. 

I try to do something for the first time as often as I can. I have had some great experiences and some very rewarding ones from this. I would never have guessed how exciting my life would become a few years ago.

Dogs, I will always have a dog from now on. They are great for mental and physical health unless you are aggressive type then poor dog..maybe get a pet rock lol.

Still trying to get over some procrastination though, maybe look into that tomorrow.

But mentall health issues, just look around. Everyone seems to be stressed these days and to be honest not sure I could say many people I know are truly well balanced.


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## chops_a_must (18 February 2008)

jman2007 said:


> I had just moved to WA at the start of 2007, started a new job and realised I wasn't coping very well.




Well, that’s your first mistake. : WA seems to bring out any little bend people have in their minds.

Seriously though, I have written about this in depth here before. I’ve had to deal with severe depression for all of my adult life, but now at least I get to deal with some of the opposite as well… which is another story.

I find that most people who suffer depression, are either dealing with some kind of trauma, be it self imposed or otherwise, and or an identity/ existential crisis. The chemical side of it, I think, is overplayed. If someone can’t walk properly, can’t talk or slurs, is very slow with eye movement, alongside being depressed, then that is a chemical depression and is the psycho-motor retardation handed out to the most unfortunate sufferers. I still think the above two factors play a big role in it leading to that however.

My own situation was fairly unique I think, in that I was a child prodigy. But thanks to my body, poor medical advice, an incompetent surgeon, incompetent physios and a moronic parent, my life outlook changed pretty quickly. I was a bit luckier than my brother, who was nearly at the top of his sport as an adult, before his body also chucked it in. So between the ages of 16 and 18 I had to save up to see a surgeon, who told me that if I had come in with that even as a 12 year old, it would have needed surgery. But of course the damage was already done and all the opportunities had passed.

It sucks because there are constant reminders for me on the TV and in newspapers, and developing something for yourself is hard, when you have been groomed your entire life to be something else. An expectation that has been there for 10 years doesn’t suddenly go away. It’s why I am now constantly questioning, annoying, and never leaving things alone, because I don’t take anything at face value, and don’t like leaving anything unchallenged, especially to do with people in authority and the sycophants following them.

It’s also why I have complete and utter disdain for people like Ben Cousins and his followers, even though completely different sports. He doesn’t know how lucky he is. He doesn’t know what people would do to get to where he has. And to give up what he has, for what? To take drugs? Is completely affronting. Anyone can take drugs, hell, I can take drugs. But I’m not a loser; that’s a loser. The very definition of it. I am successful (although I have a hard time believing it) simply because I have been able to make a life outside of what I thought was going to be mine.

On a practical note, I have listed these before. The most useful meds in their success rates, statistically and from my own observation on people and in hospitals are: lexapro, effexor and fluoxetine. If you can handle the side effects and don’t drink, lexapro and effexor are good. If you are like me, and you can’t see the point in not having a good time if you get down, then the fluoxetine is best.

I’m also on lamictil at the moment, which is expensive as it’s not on the PBS. But if it stops me from having random crashes, then it will be worth it. I’ll see how it pans out, because it takes ages to get to full dosage, but so far so good.

The stock market has been great for my brain, oddly enough. Constant, gentle, mental stimulation. Has been great for me to realise that despite doing everything I can correctly, that sometimes negative outcomes happen, that are not my fault at all.

Cheers,
Chops.


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## MRC & Co (18 February 2008)

Good thread!

Definately nothing to hide from!  Though I have never suffered depression myself, I used to deal with it on a daily basis for several years.  My dad actually suffered it so severely that he would lye in bed for days on end.  Sometimes I would turn up in the driveway, and I could hear him crying like a baby on the other side of the house, probably 30 metres away!  

Sadly, the only way it ended for him, was actually by taking his own life a few years ago now.  Horrible, horrible thing to be part of.

Only things I can say really (or even take from it), is to always find what you love doing (or even like, obviously the stockmarket for most here) and just keep making sure you keep doing those things.  Dont let yourself slip into the pits where you end up sleeping the days away and not surfacing from the bedroom.  Balance your life well, as far as sports/exercise (which are what I find stimulates me the most), friends, work, the lot.

Another thing is to see the bright side of life (as hard as that is for people stuck in the hole).  But remember the probability of you being alive is probably one the human mind cannot even comprehend.  The chance of the formation of the earth even being able to sustain life (from its distance from the sun, size of the sun, composition of the earth (I mean even the iron core to create the shield from the sun burning us to a crisp), all the details of human civilisation even enabling you to be here), it is just statistically, nearly IMPOSSIBLE you are alive!  I like the analogy, its like going into your garage, throwing around the tools and a car appearing (cant remember which one, but a very famous mathematician said that himself).  They are the chances of you being here, so you might as well enjoy it!  You got INCREDIBLY lucky!  

Bit of a rant, but thought I would share.  So much love in the world, from family, friends, even strangers, that I just find it so hard to beleive someone would end their own life!  There is always hope and so many things to do in this world, that its so worthwhile actually LIVING it!  Remember, life is what happens to you while you are busy planning or analysing other things!

Cheers


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## wayneL (18 February 2008)

Thanks for the perspective peeps.

I think we all get depressed sometimes; it's a pretty awful feeling and it's sobering to hear the stories of folks with clinical depression, that it is worse by magnitudes.

The fact that everybody does suffer "bouts" of depression (shall be call this normal depression?) probably makes it hard to understand actual clinical depression, and engenders the "get over it" response. 

That's what we all do, just snap out of it.

I must admit to being in the "get over it" crew a long time ago, until I went through a period of what may have been clinical depression (never saw anyone about it). This has changed my view big time... and it was pretty mild compared to what some folks have described.

Exercise certainly does help me when I start feeling a bit ratty, and I think the empirical evidence of a good healthy diet is established now.

But I wonder how much the medja contributes to depression in society with the constant barrage of negativity. E.G. the constant twaddle about GW. Why should young people have hope for the future when they are constantly told of impending doom.

I remember when I first saw "Threads" (a movie about the effects of nuclear conflgration) I was depressed for days... and probably the closest I've ever been to that place where the clinically depressed go. It actually felt like I was on some sort of drug.

So could binning the flipping TV and most news reporting help? I mean, someone will tell you if something important is going on. But why absorb every mishap that occurs anywhere in the world? Why do we want to know all that crap?

The truth is, it's mostly BS. Sure we gotta do something about the problems in the world, but the sensationalization of all these things is truly evil IMO.

Anyway, just some ramblings on a beautiful sunny day when I really should be outside. ('cept it's still only -2 at nearly 10AM ).

Cheers


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## 2BAD4U (18 February 2008)

Depression, stress, etc are a normal part of life and I think are actually good for us and we need these things.  It's when you go beyond a "normal" reaction to these things that you have a problem.  For me mine wasn't depression but a phobia brought on by stress which led to panic attacks and I think it's important to understand that mental illness and depression isn't just "a" thing it's any number of things.

I once saw a good definition of stress as being: "When the mind over-rides the bodies natural desire to choke the living s**t out of some a**hole who desparately deserves it."


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## Kimosabi (18 February 2008)

annalivia said:


> As a sufferer of Depression I think comments like this shouldn't be thrown around willy nilly.
> 
> Depression is a complicated/complex issue that needs to be discussed with the appropriate people. Find a doctor that you like and trust and discuss the pros and cons of anti-depressants with him/her. In my opininion they have their place in treatment but can also sometimes make things worse.



Ok, I'll qualify my comments on anti-depressants, my Father nearly killed himself on the Zoloft ****, so I'm coming from somewhat of a qualified position.

Now after many hours of Research and qualifying my research on my own body, mind and spirit, I've got to tell you, the answer/key to fixing ALL of your Physical and Mental Health issues, is start eating some decent food.

*Decent food is locally grown, RAW Organic fruit/veges/nuts etc.*

I have started spending time with people who have gone RAW, and they are all saying the same things.  When they go Raw, they loose weight, start feeling the best they have in years, and the diseases that they were suffering from start disappearing.

Now as far as modern doctors are concerned, they are nothing more than legalised Drug Pushers.

Watch the Dr Richard Schulze and Dr John R Christopher Videos on Google Video and then empower yourself to take control of your own health and wellness.  You'll be amazed at the results.


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## sails (18 February 2008)

Pager said:


> Its not only the person suffering from depression that’s affected often it has an impact on their whole family....



I know what you mean, Pager.  I have a daughter who has battled on and off with depression for years.  She now has two children, the youngest just over a year old and postnatal depression has bitten hard...  And we are pretty much the only real support she has - not an easy road by any means.

Being fortunate enough not to have had this debilitating illness (apart from the normal ups and downs of life), I never realised just how bad it could be until it came so close to home.  I certainly applaud those who have come through such a difficult time and empathise with those who are currently going through it.  

I do thank those who have shared their experiences which gives hope that there maybe a light at the end of this long, uncertain tunnel.


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## MRC & Co (18 February 2008)

Some advice I can give you Sails, is give her as much support as you POSSIBLY can.

I supported my father a lot, but I feel sometimes I sort of hid from it to safeguard my own health.  However, I realise now I could have done a lot more than I did (ultimately, it might not have made a big difference), but I still could have tried.  Also, I think its important to try and compliment your daughter as much as possible and just hang out with her and listen a LOT without offering too much advice.  

Just what I learnt from my scenario.  If it means anything at all.

Good luck!


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## annalivia (18 February 2008)

This will be my last post on this issue as I think it is open to too much misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
If you think you are suffering from clinical depression I do not think that this is the place to try discuss and solve any such issues.
Talk to your friends, talk to your family and seek professional help. I would suggest your doctor is the first port of call.

Oh yeah, one last thing. Don't listen to anything Tom Cruise has to say about depression. Actually don't listen to anything Tom Cruise has to say....period.


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## sails (18 February 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Some advice I can give you Sails, is give her as much support as you POSSIBLY can.
> 
> I supported my father a lot, but I feel sometimes I sort of hid from it to safeguard my own health.  However, I realise now I could have done a lot more than I did (ultimately, it might not have made a big difference), but I still could have tried.  Also, I think its important to try and compliment your daughter as much as possible and just hang out with her and listen a LOT without offering too much advice.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing, MRC.  Yes, pretty much what I have been doing and is what her doctor recommends as well, but it is quite exhausting at times.  And I want to be able to look back later without regrets and know I gave her the best chance of recovery that I possibly could.


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## cuttlefish (18 February 2008)

I had very bad depression and anxiety for a while, it was the result of a combination of factors including physical injury and trauma, but brought a flood of historical events and circumstances to the fore as well that combined to create a very difficult state of mind.

The only advice that I could give to anyone suffering depression is that you have to do something, anything, to take your mind somewhere else and to build up emotional fortitude again. And exercise is the obvious candidate.  You just have to force yourself to do all the things you can't face and slowly normality will return. If suffering from a physical injury or health problem the exercise part can be very difficult of course - you have to accept the new situation and reset your standards and benchmark yourself against the new situation and discover new paths.

I'd also recommend really understanding what it is that makes you happy. (not what you think you want, or what you think you need to do for others, or what you are doing to win respect from others, but to understand your own emotional needs and to find ways to address them.).

Sun, exercise, good supportive, understanding, listening friends.

I didn't use anti-depressants though many people I spoke to said I should use them (Dr's, friends etc.).    I've had mixed views on them from different people that have been on them - some very positive about them, some very negative about them. I've also had friends that have gone down a path thats led to suicide and I was worried that anti-depressants may have been a compounding factor in that process.  In hindsight I might have considered using them but I'm not sure - for me getting out of it on my own was important and I have a level of skepticism in relation to the medical and psychological professions (and some of my experiences have justified this skepticism). I preferred to trust my own judgement unaffected by medication.  I did use sleeping pills to get a full nights sleep though didn't want to become dependant on them or to avoid the situation by sleeping all of the time so I used them sparingly.  Also one night I had a very strange episode on the sleeping tablets where I was sort of in a sleep walking type of state where I was up and talking and doing things but not properly awake which really put me off them.

Everyone I've met that has suffered from real depression has always said the same thing - they didn't realise how bad it could be until they got hit by it themselves.

I think listening, without offering advice or judgement, just listening and understanding, is one of the best ways to provide support.  Also encouraging activity - any sort of activity - even if its just going for a walk or a drive etc.


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## vida (18 February 2008)

Gosh I never expected to read such disclosures on a share forum. I have had my issues too. My sister suffered from manic depression most of her life self medicated with heroin, she died of it in 2003. Two months later a friend jumped off the westgate bridge. She had been talking about 'topping' herself and some failed attempts then we thought she was over it, but obviously not. Easy to say 2003 was the worst year of my life and I am still recovering. When we are faced with such tragedies in comparision whatever the share market does or does not do, seems very insignificant indeed. life is important and we should never take people for granted and listen as much as possible.




Nyden said:


> Yes, I suffer from numerous afflictions.
> 
> Depression, Generalized anxiety, Bi-polar, OCD, & to top it off a hint of a personality disorder.
> 
> ...


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## jman2007 (19 February 2008)

Pager, Chops, Cuttlefish, 2BAD4U, Sails etc,

I really appreciate your input here, and the guts you have shown to share your experiences while battling this terrible affliction, I think it really helps to know that there are other people who have been down that road and have come out on the other side.  For those still on that road, I hope you can take some comfort in knowing that it is possible to overcome it, and that there is definitely hope!

jman


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## Julia (19 February 2008)

I know this forum is a place where, by virtue of our being anonymous, we can divulge confidences we might not share with even good friends, but even given that atmosphere, I'm really touched by the experiences that people are describing.  There's a lot of insight and courage.

Some people will disagree, and say that 'depression is depression', but I feel there is what used to be called 'reactive depression' which is a rational and realistic response to physical or emotional trauma, i.e. severe injury,loss of someone we love, financial collapse etc., and clinical or endogenous depression which is - as many on this thread have described - an inexplicable feeling of misery, apathy, dread, and all the other negative emotions which constitute what Churchill called "the black dog".

Sometimes I feel our expectations of life are too high.  It's just not realistic to be happy all the time.  Bad stuff happens and it's reasonable to feel distressed about that.  And sadness and grief are normal parts of an ordinary life.   

We are constantly told that "there is an epidemic of depression".  The manufacturers of anti depressant drugs must be  delighted with the sales of their products as more and more GP's - lacking the time to talk at length with patients - whack out more and more prescriptions, often with adverse results.

Of course many people do really need the biochemical adjustment that these drugs can provide.  My father took a massive dose of the old tricyclic antidepressants for most of his adult life.  When the side effects of these caused a bowel obstruction with consequent surgery, no one would prescribe them for him again.  He spent three months in a nursing home in a state of acute misery and finally walked out one night down to the sea and drowned himself.  

I myself have had periods of feeling suicidal, but only briefly and in response to particular situations, the depression disappearing as the problem resolved.

And I've been with people I loved who simply came to a standstill because of their depression:  couldn't work, could barely talk.  No amount of 'reasonable ' reminding of all that was still OK made any difference.
This is the intractable misery that only appears to respond to drugs.

There was a  study done that was reported on last year where half the depressed participants were given anti depressants and half were instructed to do very vigorous and sustained exercise.  i.e. of the order of three hours intensive exercise every day, rather than a gentle 30 minute stroll.  The people doing the exercise reported a greater improvement in mood than did the group of the medication who did no exercise.  I can't remember the numbers involved but recall thinking both the number and the length of the study were sufficient to make the results statistically valid.

Exercise works well for me in dealing with stress and depression, and good diet also is helpful.  But I think it's an over simplification to suggest that either just exercise or a particular food regimen can control all mood disorders.

Thanks again to everyone who has been brave enough to talk about their experiences.  Hope soon they will just constitute memories for all of you.


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## Pronto (19 February 2008)

Thanks to all contributors for their insights. There is of course another side to the story and the comments by WayneL  reminded me of another possible villain. 

This is from a review I read recently of three books:

The Loss of Sadness: How Psychiatry Transformed Normal Sorrow into Depressive Disorder
by Allan V. Horwitz and Jerome C. Wakefield
Oxford University Press, 287 pp., $29.95

Shyness: How Normal Behavior Became a Sickness
by Christopher Lane
Yale University Press, 263 pp., $27.50

Let Them Eat Prozac: The Unhealthy Relationship Between the Pharmaceutical Industry and Depression
by David Healy
New York University Press, 351 pp., $18.95 (paper)

The reviewer (Frederick Crews in the New York Review of Books, Volume 54, Number 19, December 6, 2007) said:

“…we hear, for example, that an unprecedented epidemic of depression and anxiety has recently been sweeping the world, we tend not to ask ourselves whose interest is served by that impression. In their painstaking study The Loss of Sadness, Allan V. Horwitz and Jerome C. Wakefield cite the World Health Organization's projection:

that by 2020 depression will become the second leading cause of worldwide disability, behind only heart disease, and that depression is already the single leading cause of disability for people in midlife and for women of all ages.

The WHO also ranks depression, in its degree of severity for individual victims, ahead of "Down syndrome, deafness, below-the-knee amputation, and angina." But Horwitz and Wakefield cogently argue that those judgments rest on a failure to distinguish properly between major depression, which is indeed devastating for its sufferers, and lesser episodes of sadness. If so, the WHO would appear to have bought Big Pharma's [major pharmaceutical companies] line of goods.

This isn't to say that people who experience infrequent minor depression without long-term dysfunction aren't sick enough to deserve treatment. Of course they are. But as all three of the books under consideration here attest, the pharmaceutical companies haven't so much answered a need as turbocharged it. And because self-reporting is the only means by which nonpsychotic mental ailments come to notice, a wave of induced panic may wildly inflate the epidemiological numbers, which will then drive the funding of public health campaigns to combat the chosen affliction.”
Regards, Pronto


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## nioka (19 February 2008)

Julia said:


> Sometimes I feel our expectations of life are too high.  It's just not realistic to be happy all the time.  Bad stuff happens and it's reasonable to feel distressed about that.  And sadness and grief are normal parts of an ordinary life.



I'm sure that this is the case 75% of the time. Not accepting this leads to "real" depression in lots of cases. In my case accepting this was a way out that antidepressents did not fix. Just pointing this out plus showing that others are much worse off can help in lots of cases.


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## Julia (19 February 2008)

Pronto, thanks for providing the literature which appears to endorse what I was trying to say.  Let's never underestimate the power of the multinational pharmaceutical companies.  I've worked for several of them.


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## cuttlefish (20 February 2008)

Julia thats a very tough story of your own that you describe above.

As for the medical profession I really think that the whole medical system is very bad at simple compassion.  I found that the anti-depressents were pushed strongly with no real explanation as to why or how they would work and no time spent actually trying to understand the situation I was in.

I didn't find any of the professionals particularly useful.   A volunteer counselling service where they simply listened and not much more was the most helpful, as well as a few very good friends who also simply listened and offered encouragement and support as I worked my own way out of the situation.


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## Mouse (20 February 2008)

cuttlefish said:


> I didn't find any of the professionals particularly useful.   A volunteer counselling service where they simply listened and not much more was the most helpful, as well as a few very good friends who also simply listened and offered encouragement and support as I worked my own way out of the situation.




Hi,

I found the same thing.  I've been diagnosed with agoraphobia/depression, and I found the way the medical profession concentrated on what was "wrong" with me was really defeating and made me worse.  The same with well meaning friends who want to help.  They get so caught up with "helping" me that they start seeing me as an illness and not as a person.  I remember sitting in a room once with a doctor and my family, they were all discussing what I should do ... and they left me completely out of the conversation.

The people who have helped most are the ones who just accept me, with all my quirks, and let me get on with the job of getting better.

The hardest part of dealing with the illness has been dealing with other peoples perceptions of it.

cheers
Mouse


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## cuttlefish (20 February 2008)

Mouse said:


> Hi,
> 
> I found the same thing.  I've been diagnosed with agoraphobia/depression, and I found the way the medical profession concentrated on what was "wrong" with me was really defeating and made me worse.  The same with well meaning friends who want to help.  They get so caught up with "helping" me that they start seeing me as an illness and not as a person.  I remember sitting in a room once with a doctor and my family, they were all discussing what I should do ... and they left me completely out of the conversation.
> 
> ...




Yeah its a bit odd how people that have known you your whole life can jump into treating you like a basket case when you go through a difficult time. One of the positive benefits of these experiences is that you learn a lot about yourself and about other people - in particular sometimes those closest to you can be a complete pain in the ar*se even though they're just trying to help!


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## wayneL (27 February 2008)

FYI, I spotted this article in todays paper. Could this be true?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece



> From The Times
> February 26, 2008
> Depression drugs don’t work, finds data review
> Prozac
> ...


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## kransky (27 February 2008)

I would like to suggest healthy (raw veg/fruit/nuts) eating and lots of exercise.. it takes time but the fog over your life does slowly lift


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## chops_a_must (27 February 2008)

wayneL said:


> FYI, I spotted this article in todays paper. Could this be true?
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece




It is definitely true.

The new generation Anti-deps are largely ineffective. There is only 4 or 5 (aside from tricyclics, prozac being one of 5) that I know of that actually work at a statistically significant level above the placebo rate. Tricyclics are actually very effective, but very old, so they are all generic, hence, no money. Same with prozac... more effective than just about any new anti-dep.

Most I think would actually be worse than a placebo. But the companies get around all this by saying it helps with anxiety, sleep... blah blah blah.

For anyone interested, as I mentioned earlier, I've begun taking Lamotrigine. I'm on the full dose now, and I've found it brilliant. Apart from crazy lucid dreams, which are quite entertaining, no side effects - and I usually get them all.

Anyone with depression that hasn't responded well to other medications, or who has a tendency for random unexplained mood crashes, it's worth a shot - I'd recommend trying it. It is a little expensive though, but for me it is well worth it.

Cheers.


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## Julia (27 February 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> The new generation Anti-deps are largely ineffective. There is only 4 or 5 (aside from tricyclics, prozac being one of 5) that I know of that actually work at a statistically significant level above the placebo rate. Tricyclics are actually very effective, but very old, so they are all generic, hence, no money. Same with prozac... more effective than just about any new anti-dep.



Chops, Prozac is included in the 'ineffective' group.

I think the main problem with the tricyclics was their side effects (anticholinergic effects such as dry mouth, reduced perspiration, urinary retention, constipation, sedation), and that was largely why when the SSRI's became available many people changed.  
There was also the class of anti depressants called monoamine oxidase inhibitors which were pretty much a last resort because of potential toxic interactions with other drugs and foods such as cheese.

It's a very interesting report and calls into question just how much the  effectiveness of these antidepressants can in fact be attributed to the belief by  patients that this drug is going to improve the way they feel.


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## chops_a_must (27 February 2008)

Julia said:


> Chops, Prozac is included in the 'ineffective' group.
> 
> I think the main problem with the tricyclics was their side effects (anticholinergic effects such as dry mouth, reduced perspiration, urinary retention, constipation, sedation), and that was largely why when the SSRI's became available many people changed.
> There was also the class of anti depressants called monoamine oxidase inhibitors which were pretty much a last resort because of potential toxic interactions with other drugs and foods such as cheese.
> ...




That is the tricyclic's main drawback, the side-effects.

The interesting thing is that the study only appears to be based on results of moderately depressed patients.


> The researchers said that the drug was more effective than a placebo in severely depressed patients but that this was because of a decreased placebo effect.




That seems like a bizarre statement to me. How do you know that the placebo level in 'normal' or less depressed people isn't elevated? What basis are they measuring things on if not against a placebo, if they disregard that? It's basically just reinforced my own position, that some, but very few medications work for people with real, problematic depression. (BTW, a lot of studies have shown majorly depressed people actually generally give a more accurate reading for placebos than normal people...)

I don't think any medication will work for people with mild depression. They are more likely to make you feel worse - hence my opinion of the discrepency in the stats. Those people would be far better off just excercising like has been talked about here.


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## Doris (1 March 2008)

Three days this week have been tough for me and have provoked me to think about stress.

Stress is healthy.  Adrenaline increases alertness and efficiency.  

But too much stress causes the body to prepare for fight or flight and shuts down non-essential functions... like thinking.  

Too much adrenaline over time causes the brain to go into negative mode... to slow you down so as not to blow a fuse.  You put things off.  Listen to your body and follow its needs.

Dystress is not healthy.  
Yes... lots of water, fresh fruit and vegetables are essential.

Exercise is essential.  
When you exercise to a reasonably high level for 20-30 minutes, the morphine (endorphin) produced by the pituitary gland in the brain, makes you feel better.  Dopamine, is increased and in turn increases the production of serotonin which enables nerve impulses to be relayed across the synapses of nerve pathways.  So you can think again.  Doing little things NOW, even for a few minutes, that make you feel good, increases dopamine. Too high a level of exercise cuts down the morphine production as your body feels you're in trouble and produces more adrenaline... so you need to slow down!

When you feel tired your thinking becomes lineal and deliberate but when you become exhausted your initiative is diminished. You don't want to, nor can you, deal with the issue.

I had to mentally put aspects I could handle into one basket and those I had no control over into another and put a lid on it!  I had to tell myself I did not have to deal with 'this' now!  I talked to colleagues who gave wonderful support and perspective and it made me realize how important support from others is.  It is essential!  They don't have to solve your problem but knowing they understand the situation/problem can make such a difference!  I went from feeling like crying... but couldn't... to feeling like crying and doing so easily!  What a relief!

Am I right in saying that not being able to cry when you so feel like it is a sign of dystress?
Am I right in saying if you feel like you are crawling then it's time to get out and take a brisk walk or run?  I could see myself going splat... like a bug on a windscreen where no bit of me could spread any further.  I actually ran my dog around the block and time stood still so that when I'd returned and had a drink I wondered if I'd been for the run or whether I'd put it off!  It was so weird... 

The pace of life and constant bombardment of thoughts and decision-making and dealing with a series of events that cannot be immediately resolved can sure make one feel helpless.  Feeling helpless (and potentially hopeless) is the alarm bell ringing.  

Emptying the mind... meditation... simply slow breathing and letting any thoughts that squeeze in... go... so you can try again to get to a space between the thoughts.  Slow breathing to enable the liver to break down the excess adrenaline and so con the brain into thinking you are relaxed so that your heart beat also slows.

I kept telling myself 'this does not have to be resolved right now.  Tomorrow I will have a strategy but if not that's OK.'  

If you tell yourself you don't have time to exercise... or meditate... THIS is the time to make time!

I wonder if chronically lazy people become dystressed or is it people who put in high performances, to achieve high standards, who are the victims of adrenaline poisoning... and subsequent depression.

TGIF!


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## Julia (1 March 2008)

Maybe too much campaigning for Obama, Doris?


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## Sean K (1 March 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I don't think any medication will work for people with mild depression. They are more likely to make you feel worse - hence my opinion of the discrepency in the stats.



Personal anecdotal evidence would say otherwise. Saved my life. Perhaps it was severe and doesn't count.


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## Doris (1 March 2008)

kennas said:


> Personal anecdotal evidence would say otherwise. Saved my life. Perhaps it was severe and doesn't count.




Mild depression is a warning to slow down.

Clinical depression is when the brain shuts down serotonin production.
It is impossible for a clinically depressed person to 'snap out of it' because serotonin is the 'electrolyte' for impulses to jump the synapses of nerves. 'Depersonalisation' has them feeling separate to the world around them, like a distant observer watching themselves but not feeling actually present in the situation.

The absence of feeling emotions cannot be comprehended by those who have not experienced this.  To see something that gives you a mental pleasure but not be able to feel the emotion would be catastrophic.

This is why so many self-harm, because then they can feel! And it gives them a break from being in limbo.

The agony of needing to escape the pain of feeling so deeply sad... without a current logical reason or cause... can not be understood unless experienced.  

It takes guts to stick it out when they desperately want to go to sleep and not wake again because they no longer feel they have the strength to tolerate the agony.  It takes guts to weather the pain of not being able to do what they desperately want to do because of the effect on loved ones; to overcome resentment of them because they have to consider them and not their own desire to end it all.

We need to be wary when someone who is depressed talks of ending their life.  This is not a ploy for attention but a plan to survive by escaping life.  Clinical depression renders one inert.  But as they recover and gain a little strength they have the energy to solve their situation and planning begins.  It gives some pleasure because they can be in control and finally end the pain.  Not all suicide is previewed by planning so all depressed people need close monitoring by their loved ones.  The stress involves all.

Medications work on increasing the available serotonin by recycling it and cognitive reconstruction is an essential adjunct... challenging negative thoughts and converting them into more realistic ones.  Obviously many on here have had that innate strength and determination.  Feeling a part of a group be it friends or family seems to be a common denominator to surviving.

Being specific instead of general is perhaps the most important.  This moment... this situation... is not 'always' or 'never'.  It is impossible for clinically depressed people to actually believe that this will pass.  So they must be supported and reminded over and over again.  People who have survived say when they look back they appreciate how far they have come.

I read recently that 25% of pre-schoolers surveyed, presented symptoms of mild depression.  Scary. I did a 'Suicide Intervention' workshop years ago as a professional development and have found many 'poorly behaved/achieving' students are afflicted.  Some home lives were dysfunctional and support at school was non existent as symptoms were not recognized. 

Negative attitudes are a habit for many.  For many more they are symptoms that their brains are shutting down and support is needed.
Exercise is a preventative and a cure for many ailments, physical and mental.
An open mind and good listening skills of family, friends and colleagues are too.

Don't worry Julia... Barack gives me lots of endorphins!


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## moneymajix (1 March 2008)

*VITAMIN B17*


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## Nyden (1 March 2008)

Doris said:


> This is why so many self-harm, because then they can feel! And it gives them a break from being in limbo.
> 
> The agony of needing to escape the pain of feeling so deeply sad... without a current logical reason or cause... can not be understood unless experienced.




Well, I don't know if the whole reason is to feel. I self-hurt for quite a while ... more to stop feeling than anything else. The second paragraph there fits more accurately into my scenario, at least.

I guess it's kind of like drinking though; the effect of it lessons with time as your own threshold increases ... & further / worse pain needs to be inflicted to get the same result. Eventually, less reason / justification was needed for it as well ... & the silliest things had me doing it.

It's a nasty cycle, but I believe anyone can beat it! It's just a matter of finding what works for you, meds & therapy weren't for me, but they may be for others. I'm still far from perfect, but; getting healthier each day! 


PS;
TV is really bad as well. How can anyone enjoy life, when all you see on TV is the risks entailed with it? If you drink, you die. Smoke, you die. Make a *single* mistake on the road (ie 5kmph over) ... you die, or someone else does! In which case, your life is over anyway.

I really am sick of all these commercials, sick to death of 'em! Commercials for depression, & spotting it ... creating awareness in a negative sense; as if folks with it are something to be pitied .... all these commercials do is show the very worst / extremes of these conditions; which makes those who have something slightly more mild feel worse. It's like rubbing salt in the wound!


Heck, even if you're a healthy person ... watch enough TV, and you'll probably develop anxiety! These commercials are psychologically designed to instill fear, & sadness - in the hopes of deterring the actions; watch enough, & one could become paralyzed by it. The sad music, the crying faces ... ugh, how about some government sponsored commercials that show the joy in life? Depressed folk that have made it out, just some commercials with happy people, & happy music.


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## jman2007 (1 March 2008)

kennas said:


> Personal anecdotal evidence would say otherwise. Saved my life. Perhaps it was severe and doesn't count.




Kennas,

Have to say they have helped me as well. I have used aropax which is one of the drugs that apparently has very limited usefulness, according to the latest study.  Although am I right in saying that this study had relatively narrow terms of reference?

jman


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## 2BAD4U (1 March 2008)

jman2007 said:


> Kennas,
> 
> Have to say they have helped me as well. I have used aropax which is one of the drugs that apparently has very limited usefulness, according to the latest study.  Although am I right in saying that this study had relatively narrow terms of reference?
> 
> jman




I actually think that study has some "merit". I often wondered if it was the medication working or the THOUGHT of the medication working that helped, so I gave them up.

Unfortunately, the bottle became a good friend of mine until I realised it was happening again (well actually was made to realise by my wife). Now it's just a healthy lifestyle with an occassional drink for enjoyment rather than escape.


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## Julia (1 March 2008)

Doris said:


> This is why so many self-harm, because then they can feel! And it gives them a break from being in limbo.




That's one explanation for self harm.  I work with teenagers in a Youth Mentoring programme and what most of them say is that their confusion and emotional pain is so great that they self harm (usually cutting) to cause what they hope will be an even greater physical pain which will divert their attention from the emotional agony.



> The agony of needing to escape the pain of feeling so deeply sad... without a current logical reason or cause... can not be understood unless experienced.




Above you suggested they could not feel.
Perhaps your own comments go to the sense of confusion which seems to veer from intractable, inexplicable sadness and pessimism, to an apathy which causes complete withdrawal from the ordinariness of everyday activities.
(Doris, I don't mean here to be specific towards you, rather an observation about the lack of clarity in defining what we are actually talking about when we discuss depression.)



> It takes guts to stick it out when they desperately want to go to sleep and not wake again because they no longer feel they have the strength to tolerate the agony.  It takes guts to weather the pain of not being able to do what they desperately want to do because of the effect on loved ones; to overcome resentment of them because they have to consider them and not their own desire to end it all.
> 
> We need to be wary when someone who is depressed talks of ending their life.  This is not a ploy for attention but a plan to survive by escaping life.  Clinical depression renders one inert.  But as they recover and gain a little strength they have the energy to solve their situation and planning begins.  It gives some pleasure because they can be in control and finally end the pain.  Not all suicide is previewed by planning so all depressed people need close monitoring by their loved ones.  The stress involves all.




I'm interested that you mention planning for suicide.
My late father pleaded with me to assist him in ending his life, the methods suggested including taking him from the nursing home and leaving him at my house alone with his rifle so he could shoot himself.  Much as I sympathised with his wish to die, obviously to do this would have landed me in jail for abetting a suicide.  
He proposed various even more bizarre methods, amongst a mood of profound misery and desolation.  Then, quite suddenly, he seemed to become calm and almost happy.  I thought, he has accepted that suicide is not the best alternative and has decided to make the best of what is available to him.
Absolutely wrong.  A few days after I observed this change in his demeanour, he left the nursing home one night and walked down to the sea and drowned himself.  A psychologist later told me that this presentation of calm and happiness in a person previously desperately unhappy and suicidal is usually a result of them having devised a plan to definitively end their lives.

That said, there definitely are histrionic personalities who enjoy the attention they receive from hysterical threats to end their lives.  

The difficulty faced by those of us close to them is being able to distinguish between the two states of mind.  Too much to expect when often psychiatrists are unable to do this.



> I read recently that 25% of pre-schoolers surveyed, presented symptoms of mild depression.  Scary. I did a 'Suicide Intervention' workshop years ago as a professional development and have found many 'poorly behaved/achieving' students are afflicted.  Some home lives were dysfunctional and support at school was non existent as symptoms were not recognized.




Perhaps.  But is the best response to this to put them on medication?
More and more young children are being heavily medicated for behaviour which would once have been seen as "something they will grow out of".
I am really concerned at how much we are pathologising normal human sadness and mood changes, especially in children.  Human beings are designed to experience a range of emotions, by no means always positive.
We grow by working through these and adjusting our responses to negative events.  Taking a pill to fix everything can only result in our feeling that we have no control over our emotional state.



> Negative attitudes are a habit for many.  For many more they are symptoms that their brains are shutting down and support is needed.
> Exercise is a preventative and a cure for many ailments, physical and mental.
> An open mind and good listening skills of family, friends and colleagues are too.



Agreed entirely about the negative attitudes.  Agree somewhat less about seeking support from family, friends and colleagues.  These are usually less than appropriately qualified to provide the best feedback and can be very worried by someone close to them being distraught/depressed.  It is immensely distressing to have someone you love beg you to help them end their life.

I'd much prefer the option of seeking professional help.  A psychologist knows what questions to ask and how to encourage insight and progress.
They can now be accessed via Medicare with a referral from a GP.



> Don't worry Julia... Barack gives me lots of endorphins!




Pleased to hear it, Doris.  I didn't mean to minimise the seriousness of the topic.  
Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful post.


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## chops_a_must (1 March 2008)

Julia said:


> That's one explanation for self harm.  I work with teenagers in a Youth Mentoring programme and what most of them say is that their confusion and emotional pain is so great that they self harm (usually cutting) to cause what they hope will be an even greater physical pain which will divert their attention from the emotional agony.



That's pretty consistent with a lot of doctors saying it has quite a connection to  dissociation.

And self harm is used as a method of "re-centralising" back in the real world.


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## Doris (2 March 2008)

Julia said:


> That's one explanation for self harm.  I work with teenagers in a Youth Mentoring programme and what most of them say is that their confusion and emotional pain is so great that they self harm (usually cutting) to cause what they hope will be an even greater physical pain which will divert their attention from the emotional agony. Above you suggested they could not feel.



That's what I meant Julia... when the mind is consumed with deep, deep sadness (overwhelming *negative* feelings... and an inability to feel *positive* emotions) and they desperately need a *respite* by feeling physical pain. Exactly what Chops said above.
A friend who was being treated for clinical depression, several years ago, told me about watching her young daughter playing and laughing outside with a friend and thought how wonderful it was to see her so enjoying herself.  Then she noted that she couldn't actually _feel_ happy for her although mentally she _thought_ it!  She then scratched the skin off her arm in frustration to ease the anguish. 
 I have to say I've had students who have cut themselves, superficially, and  used this as an attention ploy.  If kids are seeking attention then they need it but diagnosing the kind of attention requires a professional.  
You must have a large heart and be able to keep one foot in your own shoe to do your vital job!



Julia said:


> Perhaps your own comments go to the sense of confusion which seems to veer from intractable, inexplicable sadness and pessimism, to an apathy which causes complete withdrawal from the ordinariness of everyday activities.
> (Doris, I don't mean here to be specific towards you, rather an observation about the lack of clarity in defining what we are actually talking about when we discuss depression.)



Doesn't this reflect the development or plunge from mild depression to clinical depression where the mind goes numb and inert?  



jman2007 said:


> I basically just stayed in bed for a week, not wanting to talk to anyone, and only leaving my room for occasional meals.




My friend said she'd sit on the couch in a fetal position for hours each day, for weeks, when her daughter was at school... feeling like she wanted to cry but couldn't, then suddenly bursting into gut wrenching sobbing.  She had a weekly psychologist session that kept her going. When she took a few weeks of sick leave she thought she'd feel better with the break but actually went into shut-down mode.



Julia said:


> I'm interested that you mention planning for suicide.
> My late father pleaded with me to assist him in ending his life...
> Then, quite suddenly, he seemed to become calm and almost happy.  I thought, he has accepted that suicide is not the best alternative and has decided to make the best of what is available to him.
> Absolutely wrong.  A few days after I observed this change in his demeanour, he left the nursing home one night and walked down to the sea and drowned himself.  A psychologist later told me that this presentation of calm and happiness in a person previously desperately unhappy and suicidal is usually a result of them having devised a plan to definitively end their lives.




Yes... Did they say he was probably finally lifting from the depression and this gave him the energy to plan and act? Realizing he would have felt  pleasure in being able to escape his 'dark hole' would not compensate you for the loss of future time with him had he been able to accept that 'it would pass... one day... so hold on'.  
Suicide interventionists are to show acceptance of their planning and make a contract with the patient to not do anything until x time... when they arrange a specialist to meet with them.  I always update my First Aid Certificate but with this too, I am grateful I've not had to attend an emergency. 
It's a concern that Queensland has long had the highest rate of male suicide per head of population in the world.
Another friend planned to drink a bottle of rum before using a rifle but stumbled and shot himself in the abdomen. It is so so sad when you talk to survivors and they are so grateful they failed... even though it took months to a year to finally feel hopeful again... to think of the ones that completed.
How hard that must have been for you.  It would seem a burden that would be with you always in his not being able to work through it.  
And that heart breaking agony of finally feeling hope of getting your father back... to find he had acted.



Julia said:


> That said, there definitely are histrionic personalities who enjoy the attention they receive from hysterical threats to end their lives. The difficulty faced by those of us close to them is being able to distinguish between the two states of mind.  Too much to expect when often psychiatrists are unable to do this.




Again, the challenge is to determine the type of attention they need.  Unfortunately many people have found (on this thread too) that some psychiatrists are not helpful and focus on medication alone.  A clinical psychologist is also needed to deal with cognitive reconstruction.



Julia said:


> But is the best response to this to put them on medication?
> More and more young children are being heavily medicated for behaviour which would once have been seen as "something they will grow out of".
> I am really concerned at how much we are pathologising normal human sadness and mood changes, especially in children.  Human beings are designed to experience a range of emotions, by no means always positive.
> We grow by working through these and adjusting our responses to negative events.  Taking a pill to fix everything can only result in our feeling that we have no control over our emotional state.




Agree fully! I've had a few students who were medicated for ADHD to later have their problem identified as poor parenting skills.  The trials in kindergartens in the UK, using Omega 3 for three months, found symptoms lifted and now a lot of parents feed their kids these when really oily fish, two to three times a week, would suffice.

I lecture Year 8 to 12 about the need to balance their stress with sport and taking time out.  I actually have a few minutes of meditation with classes every few weeks, especially before exams.  Catholic colleges in Brisbane have short meditation sessions after lunch each day and Michael Carr-Gregg assured me that Victorian schools have this in their programs too. 

Even today I needed 'time out' as I went through my email mailbox and my digital camera and finally cleaned them out by deleting. Mentally exhausting work! No weeds in my vegie patch now!  We don't realize the bombardment we subject our minds to and the need to vary intellectual, emotional and physical pursuits. 



Julia said:


> Agreed entirely about the negative attitudes.  Agree somewhat less about seeking support from family, friends and colleagues.  These are usually less than appropriately qualified to provide the best feedback and can be very worried by someone close to them being distraught/depressed.  It is immensely distressing to have someone you love beg you to help them end their life.




I can't imagine the trauma this would have caused.  However, my point is that onset of depression is exacerbated when one does not feel part of a group. Lonely people are more susceptible according to research.  If someone feels no-one cares about them they are more likely to sink lower. Professional help is imperative.  Many people struggle on alone and succumb whilst others endure the recovery period.  Knowing they will get there and having people wanting them to recover must make it less arduous. But obviously not always.



Julia said:


> I'd much prefer the option of seeking professional help.  A psychologist knows what questions to ask and how to encourage insight and progress.
> They can now be accessed via Medicare with a referral from a GP.




Yes.  That was well overdue as psych fees are high.  A son-in-law is one and works with primary school aged children.  His own stress level got so high from traumatic cases that he was spending every afternoon and weekend fishing!

I've asked our GC to enlighten staff on symptoms to watch out for.  Two  weeks ago a colleague's wife overdosed whilst he was at work.  It's amidst us.  We all need to be aware for our own and others' sakes.


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## jman2007 (3 March 2008)

Doris said:


> That's what I meant Julia... when the mind is consumed with deep, deep sadness (overwhelming *negative* feelings... and an inability to feel *positive* emotions) and they desperately need a *respite* by feeling physical pain. Exactly what Chops said above.
> A friend who was being treated for clinical depression, several years ago, told me about watching her young daughter playing and laughing outside with a friend and thought how wonderful it was to see her so enjoying herself.  Then she noted that she couldn't actually _feel_ happy for her although mentally she _thought_ it!  She then scratched the skin off her arm in frustration to ease the anguish.
> I have to say I've had students who have cut themselves, superficially, and  used this as an attention ploy.  If kids are seeking attention then they need it but diagnosing the kind of attention requires a professional.
> You must have a large heart and be able to keep one foot in your own shoe to do your vital job!
> ...




Great post Doris,

And some good input from Julia as well.  Some really thought provoking stuff here, you sound like you both know what you're talking about.

Cheers
jman


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## Julia (3 March 2008)

I have often read opinion of 'experts' who say anyone committing suicide is ipso facto mentally ill.

I would absolutely dispute that.

Doris, in response to my remarks about my father drowning himself, you suggested it was sad that he couldn't 'work through it'.  (Paraphrasing here.)
If we are talking about a young person with their life ahead, then yes, I'd agree.  But here we had an old man, late 80's, who because of a sudden medical event found himself unable to live independently and was put into a nursing home.  He was not a sociable person, having eschewed the company of others for most of his life, and his physical health plus being forced into an institutional routine with people with whom he had nothing in common , meant he was deeply unhappy.  He simply wanted not to participate in that existence.
Our politicians who know what is best for us deny the old and infirm the opportunity of voluntary euthanasia.  He saw suicide as his only option to end his misery.  

To me, this means his thinking was perfectly sane.  I would have felt the same in his position.

I deeply regret the way he died.  It was absolutely horrible.  No human being should have to do that, ever.  But until more civilised options are available to us, suicide will be the choice of many.  That does not make them insane.


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## wayneL (3 March 2008)

*Re: Coping with mental illness and depressionTalking costs more than pills,*

Here's a view from the Old Dart that seems to make a little sense:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/india_knight/article3466694.ece

This comment should be an uppercut to any civilized society:



> Talking costs more than pills...



 Kinda sad that.


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## agro (4 March 2008)

hope this is common too.. non-market related, i don't think its bipolar 

but

does anyone else get one really good day or a streak of really good days followed by a streak or a day of really depressing and doubtful days?


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## Nyden (4 March 2008)

agro said:


> hope this is common too.. non-market related, i don't think its bipolar
> 
> but
> 
> does anyone else get one really good day or a streak of really good days followed by a streak or a day of really depressing and doubtful days?




All depends on how extreme these feelings are; ups, & downs, are very normal, but if you feel absolutely, morbidly depressed in these 'down streaks', then it may be something of concern.

Let me ask you this, are these streaks tied to the market? For example, a streak of great days following a gain ... streak of bad after a loss? As make no mistake, the market can be used as a gambling outlet, and you may have a problem there if so; gambling is synonymous with highs, & lows.


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## agro (4 March 2008)

Nyden said:


> All depends on how extreme these feelings are; ups, & downs, are very normal, but if you feel absolutely, morbidly depressed in these 'down streaks', then it may be something of concern.
> 
> Let me ask you this, are these streaks tied to the market? For example, a streak of great days following a gain ... streak of bad after a loss? As make no mistake, the market can be used as a gambling outlet, and you may have a problem there if so; gambling is synonymous with highs, & lows.




nah not tied to the market,, just tied to social relationships etc..

for example, one day everything is going well i think i am on top of things with my friends and then a few days latter i perceive myself and relations differently as though they disregard me or something..probably just irreational thinking 

must be normal i'd imagine otherwise if your happy all the time you wouldn't appreciate it as much


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## Nyden (4 March 2008)

agro said:


> nah not tied to the market,, just tied to social relationships etc..
> 
> for example, one day everything is going well i think i am on top of things with my friends and then a few days latter i perceive myself and relations differently as though they disregard me or something..probably just irreational thinking
> 
> must be normal i'd imagine otherwise if your happy all the time you wouldn't appreciate it as much




Are you a young chap? Mood swings can be normal for quite a few years after 20 I believe?

Well, one's perception of self shouldn't really change drastically on a daily basis (in an older person, that is) ... might not be a biological problem though, could be a self-esteem issue? Diet?


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## sandlion (4 March 2008)

I want to add to this thread with my own experiences:

I have had severe anxiety and depression episodes that come on rapidly, the most recent last year resulted in me admitting myself to hospital, as I truly was not capable of trusting my own decision making. The biggest hurdle for the most part has been feeling afraid of the stigma of 'not coping'. I work in a professional environment where performance is an expectation. Having to admit my 'illness' to my managers was a huge step, but ultimately wise as I was supported and allowed to work my way back to 'myself'. I am lucky in that regard, I am sure many would face an unsympathetic response, which can be ultimately the biggest kick when you are down.

For any who are unfortunate to be suffering or have the scars remaining, or who fear ' the suffering', I can only mention the things that have helped me. It is such a deeply personal thing however, and in itself this is part of the insidious nature of the illness. You believe that your experience is founded so strongly on personal issues that you cannot imagine anyone understanding or helping. Here goes...

1. Find a sympathetic GP, do not relent until you do. For those who don't have the luxury of choice, ask your GP the questions you need answers to, try and encourage their professional interest. Try and see them a minimum of weekly.

2. Sleep. It's the first thing to go usually, that or the routine. You will find yourself awake at the most god-awful times of the night, your heart racing, restless, nervous, anxious, terrified. In the short term medication is essential, it will give you the breathing space and mental respite to start working out a longer term steategy. Do not fear the anti-anxiety drugs, or the sleeping tablets. Just don't overdo it and stick to the prescribed values. I went nearly 3 weeks without more than 1 or 2 hours sleep per night. Don't lie in bed, read or watch TV. Get up, do your taxes, write a letter, update your diary, your address book, do some housework, anything just to stop staring at the walls thinking.

3. Don't hide. Get out, walk, go see someone you know, you won't feel like it but taking the time to focus on something else instead of the sucking blackness in your head can help.

4. Talk. I recommend a friend who you think may be sympathetic. You will be surprised how many people can relate personal experience of their own or a family member.

5. Inform yourself. Use the web, get a book, learn that you are not alone.

6. Take time to realise that you are suffering from an illness. You don't blame yourself when you get the flu. Depression and anxiety are as physiologically linked as they are mentally (and physicallY)

7. Eat. You won't want to. At least try and force it down you. I lost shocking amounts of weight (4-5 kgs a week). I was on the milk as much as possible as it was easier to get down. And I hate milk, so I got on the strawberry milk . Also, get some vitamins in you. Poor nutrition will hinder your recovery.

8. In the longer term, recognise the triggers and signs. Exercise is very beneficial. WHEN you come out the other side, you will have an appreciation for, and a desire to make change in your life. This is something positive and very often a depressive episode can work as a turnaround point.

9. Stay off the p1ss. It's great. It numbs. It gives you a respite. Its called self medicating and you are far better off with proper medication from the GP. The days following 'indulging' can exact a mental toll on you that you don't need. I do like my beers, and I do like hitting the p1ss every so often. You may need to evaluate the effect your drinking has on you.

10. Don't give up. It can bring you to your knees and lower. It can infiltrate every part of your life and taint it. It can make you cry, make you question every last thing about yourself, feel guilty, feel punished, even make you feel like God is exacting some revenge on you or that you are in some way evil. you're not. You're human, and you need help. You need a break. Don't give up. Dom Spiro Spera...while Breath Lasts Hope lives


Anyone struggling, feel free to PM me. I am in Brissie, and very understanding. I am not insane. Well, not recently 

Sandlion


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## sandlion (4 March 2008)

Oh also, Effexor RX worked for me very well.

I used Serepax in the clinical times, with Normison and Seraquell for sleeping. These were my short termers.

I would say Effexor has been good to me, certainly it scores as the 'most effective' antidepressant/anti-anxiety medication. I was put on Prozac and that hospitalised me as it made me restless and suffer insomnia. 

Good thoughts to all


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## Julia (4 March 2008)

sandlion said:


> I want to add to this thread with my own experiences:
> 
> I have had severe anxiety and depression episodes that come on rapidly, the most recent last year resulted in me admitting myself to hospital, as I truly was not capable of trusting my own decision making. The biggest hurdle for the most part has been feeling afraid of the stigma of 'not coping'. I work in a professional environment where performance is an expectation. Having to admit my 'illness' to my managers was a huge step, but ultimately wise as I was supported and allowed to work my way back to 'myself'. I am lucky in that regard, I am sure many would face an unsympathetic response, which can be ultimately the biggest kick when you are down.
> 
> ...



Sandlion, courageous and honest post.  
Thanks and all the best for the future.


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## Julia (4 March 2008)

agro said:


> nah not tied to the market,, just tied to social relationships etc..
> 
> for example, one day everything is going well i think i am on top of things with my friends and then a few days latter i perceive myself and relations differently as though they disregard me or something..probably just irreational thinking
> 
> must be normal i'd imagine otherwise if your happy all the time you wouldn't appreciate it as much




Agro, it sounds rather as though perhaps you are fairly sensitive and possibly overreact to some perceived slight from friends/relations.  Just guessing here of course as we don't know you.
Generally, when we are feeling OK about ourselves, we care not too much about what others appear to feel or think about us, but if our self image is a bit shaky, then we are inordinately affected by even the slightest criticism.
Perhaps a basic course in self esteem/assertiveness might help.


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## Doris (5 March 2008)

Julia said:


> Agro, it sounds rather as though perhaps you are fairly sensitive and possibly overreact to some perceived slight from friends/relations.  Just guessing here of course as we don't know you.
> Generally, when we are feeling OK about ourselves, we care not too much about what others appear to feel or think about us, but if our self image is a bit shaky, then we are inordinately affected by even the slightest criticism.
> Perhaps a basic course in self esteem/assertiveness might help.




A lot of realistic common sense here Julia!

A daughter is a policy planner for the Dept of Child Safety. A very clever young woman. When she told me last year 'things are not always about you Mum', I thought she was saying I was self-absorbed. But what she clarified she meant was that people have their own problems and they are not related to me at all.

For weeks I had a disruptive belligerent behaviour issue with a new senior student and I thought it was a personality problem with me. After talking with several of her other teachers and a GO last week I discovered her attitude was in all her classes and based on her problems with her sexuality and weekend substance abuse.  She had come to our school/town because her family had turned their back on her and she had been sacked from her recent part-time job.  She is now receiving counselling.

You're spot on in saying when we think we are 'OK' we expect others to think we are too.  When we feel we're not OK we look for confirmation by others.

Maybe when we're depressed we tend to be self centred. Maybe we don't notice we don't solicit other people's interests and problems?

When the negatives prevail they need to be refuted... challenge yourself to see why your interpretation may be off the mark?


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## jman2007 (5 March 2008)

sandlion said:


> I want to add to this thread with my own experiences:
> 
> I have had severe anxiety and depression episodes that come on rapidly, the most recent last year resulted in me admitting myself to hospital, as I truly was not capable of trusting my own decision making. The biggest hurdle for the most part has been feeling afraid of the stigma of 'not coping'. I work in a professional environment where performance is an expectation. Having to admit my 'illness' to my managers was a huge step, but ultimately wise as I was supported and allowed to work my way back to 'myself'. I am lucky in that regard, I am sure many would face an unsympathetic response, which can be ultimately the biggest kick when you are down.
> 
> ...




Sandlion,

Some great advice there, very similar to my own experiences and methods for getting back on track with life.

The alcohol thing was a really bad combination when I was going through my bad patch.  Apparently my upset stomach and "reflux" (the medical term) was a by-product of the stress and anxiety I was experiencing.  Even a quiet beer or glass of red wine played havoc with my stomach. Really horrible.

I still think revealing to work colleagues any type of personal problems you may be experiencing is still a huge challenge for me, and a lot of people, so it's good that you had such an understanding employer. 

jman


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## Doris (21 May 2008)

jman2007 said:


> Sandlion,
> 
> Some great advice there, very similar to my own experiences and methods for getting back on track with life.
> 
> jman




Is anxiety a factor in all instances of depression?

Does the period of 'profound sadness' always involve panic attacks?

I thought it did but was talking with someone being treated for depression and she has never felt 'foreboding terror'.  
All others I've talked with have felt extreme anxiety.


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## Julia (22 May 2008)

Doris said:


> Is anxiety a factor in all instances of depression?



No.



> Does the period of 'profound sadness' always involve panic attacks?



No.


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## Doris (22 May 2008)

Julia said:


> No.
> 
> 
> No.




I always thought that depression was the body's reaction to chronic over production of adrenaline... that it reduced production of serotonin (sp?)to prevent 'blowing a fuse'... that negative thoughts/moods were the body's way of slowing one down, thus producing less adrenaline... less anxiety.

So it's actually one OR the other OR both...

It's interesting how slow breathing tricks the brain into thinking the body is relaxed and the heart beats slower.  

Then three minutes of slow breathing enables the liver to break down excess adrenaline... the goal of meditation... clearing the mind of clutter...


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## teabag (27 August 2008)

how well do i know and understand how you feel. very well indeed. for a long time i felt lost too. my partner was lost to depression or the blackness as we called it. but we`ve learnt a lot of "stuff" over the years since our dark days started to disappear. i hope the following helps.

anxiety arises when the ego is faced with situations, conflicts etc we find overwhelming or fearful to cope with. subconsciously these are the triggers which can produce anxiety.  

sometimes these situations or conflicts may not have even happened yet. it may be our perception of perceived fearful events that may bring on these anxiety attacts. (fear has a great imagination)

our reactions to these situations can be either, fight or flight. we learnt to fight or flight from these triggers when we were kids. we programmed ourselves by writing a contract albeit subconsciously which we live out everyday hoping to protect ourselves from the primary emotions of hurt fear pain(emotional, physical and spiritual) anger anxiety or loss. 

all of us will feel one of these emotions very srongly at one time or another. there will be a predominate one through out our life. but it`s not our emotions that drive us it`s the feelings underneath that we need to look at and deal with. our emotions are reactions to old memories.

 i am not my emotions i am my feelings at that point. this is called emotional quotient.

once we allow our anxiety to arise and we flight from it, it can block, restrict, prevent and obstruct us from living great lives. this then brings on other negative feelings eg depression, loneliness, worthlessness, feeling unloved or unloveable, self pity, self hatred, self harm, uselessness etc the list of negative emotions is endless. 

what situations and or conflicts do you find overwhelming or fearful, which trigger your anxiety? what childhood memories are you attached to which your emotions react to? what feelings do you feel the most often?

as i said before i hope a little of what i have learnt helps you. we`ve reached a peaceful place in our life with the help of some great people and we found workshops the best way to get the honest help we needed. one or two in particular were very helpful and rewarding giving us the tools of life we were searching for. we are now MOVING FORWARD. all the best for your journey in life. reach out for some good workshops they will help. regards teabag


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## Julia (8 April 2013)

I came across this engrossing and enlightening discussion on mental illness via Radio National:
http://www.npr.org/2013/02/06/171270354/the-unquiet-mind

It includes talks with three highly intelligent and erudite individuals describing their experiences, one with schizophrenia, one with bipolar, and one with generalised anxiety disorder.

It's insightful for those of us who might struggle to understand what friends and family go through in dealing with the terror of psychosis.  All the subjects manage to combine vivid descriptions of their experiences with hard won acceptance and humour.


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## Tisme (23 January 2018)

So while the nation seems preoccupied with victim playing, here's an organisation and patron who actually recognises resilience guidance is what we need for children who would otherwise succumb to self doubt and mental anxiety, etc

New document:

http://resources.beyondblue.org.au/prism/file?token=BL/1810_A


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## Logique (31 January 2018)

I reckon this might be at the core of the Aussie tennis player's problems on 'I'm a Celebrity' 2018.

Counselling and medication might make the world of difference for him.


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## So_Cynical (1 February 2018)

Saw an expert on TV the other day and he said that we should be referring to suicide as death by depression, like so and so died of depression, a victim of depression...drop suicide completely as a cause of death.

I think this has some merit.


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## Tisme (1 February 2018)

So_Cynical said:


> Saw an expert on TV the other day and he said that we should be referring to suicide as death by depression, like so and so died of depression, a victim of depression...drop suicide completely as a cause of death.
> 
> I think this has some merit.




I'm not sure depression drives all or even the majority of suicides, but then again "depression" is a big drag net these days, especially with it being an easy mental disease diagnosis excuse.


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## So_Cynical (2 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm not sure depression drives all or even the majority of suicides




For under 45 year old's i struggle to see any other cause? depression in general, feelings of overwhelming sadness etc..


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## Tisme (2 February 2018)

So_Cynical said:


> For under 45 year old's i struggle to see any other cause? depression in general, feelings of overwhelming sadness etc..




I don't know the % causes, but I have some close family exposure on a couple of fronts. For example the medication for hashimoto's has to be precise, amphetamines another, etc on the medication front.

Exhaustion must play a role, constant chronic pain, old age, ,loss of soul mate, etc. Whether these give pause to depression I have no idea, or if depression has no role to play?

There is also that peculiar event where males who have a suicide in their ancestoral lineage are oddly drawn to the idea too. This is why families tended to bury the cause along with the body.

Ritual suicide and martyrdom for the cause?


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## noirua (26 October 2019)




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## noirua (26 October 2019)

noirua said:


> Spike Milligan was a comedian, writer and musician. He often visited Australia and appeared in programmes "The Idiot Weekly" and "Bobby Limb".  A suspension bridge linking Woy Woy and Gosford, NSW Central Coast, was named after him.
> 
> Spike Milligan was known as a manic depressive and suffered with bipolar disorder most of his life. He suffered at least ten major mental breakdowns, several lasting longer than a year.
> 
> ...




Worth bringing up again as Spike Milligan's experience sees matters from the dark side.


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