# How to reduce CGT?



## weev (16 December 2007)

Hi crew

Lets suppose you have some stocks that have done well. And you want to cash them in.

What are some of the ways you can use to reduce your Capital Gains Tax on them?

Any suggestions/ideas would be helpful. My knowledge is zero on this.


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## sharechaser (16 December 2007)

I'm no tax expert but i don't think there are too many ways to simply reduce cgt besides the obvious holding of the share for over 12 months.

Any brokerage incurred should be able to be used as a deduction off your assessable income. Similarly, if you've made any losses as a result of selling shares, they should also reduce your assessable income.

prob best to check with an accountant/tax adviser though.


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## theasxgorilla (16 December 2007)

If you borrowed against, instead of cashing in, you'd pay NO cap gains tax.  How to turn that to your advantage is another story.


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## bryan_palmer (16 December 2007)

sharechaser said:


> Any brokerage incurred should be able to be used as a deduction off your assessable income.




Does that apply to people who aren't professional/career traders?


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## adobee (16 December 2007)

perhaps sell some dog shares that havent done well at the same time ?
perhaps buy an investment property and use the depreciation as an off set?
get a good accountant, pay him some money and get him to set up some kaymen island accounts..

these are just my ideas I dont know much about tax or if these are even right..


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## Prospector (16 December 2007)

bryan_palmer said:


> Does that apply to people who aren't professional/career traders?



Yes - just as if when you are selling an IP house you reduce the profit you make by deducting all the expenses.

The only way to reduce CGT is to reduce your income so you fall into a lower tax bracket (eg if you are 55+ you can salary sacrifice your wages into super and draw down your super) or else make a loss elsewhere.


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## MS+Tradesim (16 December 2007)

Another option, if you earn less than 10% of your income from an employer in a f/y then you can contribute to super and reduce your taxable income. There are limits on this. However, as has already been advised you should speak to an expert to get advice that fits your situation.


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## weev (17 December 2007)

sharechaser said:


> I'm no tax expert but i don't think there are too many ways to simply reduce cgt besides the obvious holding of the share for over 12 months.




First thing, cheers to all for the advisories.

Sharechaser... what do you mean by the 'obvious holding of the share for over 12 months' - - are year-plus-old shares except from GST???


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## MS+Tradesim (17 December 2007)

weev said:


> First thing, cheers to all for the advisories.
> 
> Sharechaser... what do you mean by the 'obvious holding of the share for over 12 months' - - are year-plus-old shares except from GST???




If you own a share for longer than 12mths prior to selling it than only half the profit is added to your income. The other half is tax-free (Assuming you are not doing your trading through a company).

Example: You buy $10,000 worth of XYZ Ltd. You sell it 18mths later for $25,000. You have a gain of $15,000 (ignoring expenses) but you only need to add $7,500 to your taxable income. The other $7,500 is tax-free.

If you hold the share for less than 12mths then the whole gain is taxable.


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## weev (18 December 2007)

Cheers for that info MS+Tradesim.

I guess I need a financial advisor now to help get the returns into something other than the tax man's war chest.

But with the current jitters who knows?


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## awg (19 December 2007)

If you are over 55 yrs, or eligible in some other way, do all your share trading within a SMSF that is in the pension phase, you will pay no CGT


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## bryan_palmer (19 December 2007)

Prospector said:


> Yes - just as if when you are selling an IP house you reduce the profit you make by deducting all the expenses.




So say if I buy $5000 of shares and pay $30 brokerage, the shares then rise in value to $6000, so my profit is $1000 but I only pay tax on $970 ($1000 - $30)?


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## MS+Tradesim (19 December 2007)

Bryan,

You are basically correct. You can also claim other expenses such as any platform/data fees, a portion of your phone line (for internet access), a portion of your ISP cost (dependent on how much you use the internet for income related purposes eg 20%), self-education such as books, magazines etc. (except where the education is used to change profession) Basically any expense that you have incurred which is directly related to the taxable income you must account for. 

_(Disclaimer: Always speak to a qualified accountant to ensure your legitimate deductions can be maximised)._


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## baboon (22 December 2007)

bryan_palmer said:


> So say if I buy $5000 of shares and pay $30 brokerage, the shares then rise in value to $6000, so my profit is $1000 but I only pay tax on $970 ($1000 - $30)?




In the example above it shows the brokerage on BUYING the stock as $30.  Would the brokerage costs of buying AND selling the stock be tax deductable?


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## MS+Tradesim (22 December 2007)

Baboon,

Yes. Both buying and selling brokerage is deductible.


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## baboon (22 December 2007)

Thanks very much MS+Tradesim!


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## rnr (22 December 2007)

Caution



> If you own a share for longer than 12mths prior to selling it than only half the profit is added to your income. The other half is tax-free (Assuming you are not doing your trading through a company).
> 
> Example: You buy $10,000 worth of XYZ Ltd. You sell it 18mths later for $25,000. You have a gain of $15,000 (ignoring expenses) but you only need to add $7,500 to your taxable income. The other $7,500 is tax-free.
> 
> If you hold the share for less than 12mths then the whole gain is taxable.




If the ATO deems that you are in the business of trading shares then *the above exemption *(i.e. 50%) *would not apply*.

Seek the advice of an Income Tax professional when you need to resolve questions on this subject.


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## GreatPig (23 December 2007)

Further to RNR's response, brokerage is only _tax deductible_ in the year it's incurred if you're a trading business. As an investor who pays CGT, brokerage forms part of the cost base to reduce the profit on sale.

GP


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## Prem (27 December 2007)

On the subject of tax, How come minors are taxed more than adults?

Thanks in advance!


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## Nyden (27 December 2007)

Prem said:


> On the subject of tax, How come minors are taxed more than adults?
> 
> Thanks in advance!




My theory behind that is the fact that children generally don't *need* as much money as adults? They have no mortgage, no proper bills (aside from phone bills...), so why shouldn't they be?

The parents are happy - no longer need to grant allowance. The children are happy and naive at how badly they're being screwed on child-slave-labour pay rates, and on tax rates; just so long as they can afford their new iPods & the likes... everyone is happy!


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## GregT (27 December 2007)

Minors are only taxed at higher rates than adults on unearned income. They are taxed at the same rates as Adults on earned income, i.e. Child who works at Coles will receive the $6,000 tax free threshold and then be taxed at 15% on the next dollar.

Unearned income is basically interest, dividends from money that is not the Childs.  The theory behind taxing minors higher is to stop wealthy adults parking money in their chalderns names. 

Hope that answers your question.


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## ba229 (29 December 2007)

I have a sure fire way to reduce taxable income and reduce CGT at the same time.

Get a margin loan. Interest paid on this loan is used to reduce taxable income.

Now for the brilliant bit in my plan. You can gaurantee paying zero CGT if you always trade at a loss. So that means selling shares for less than you paid for them.

Sure, if you use my plan you will not be making money through trading but you will be paying less tax if thats the most important thing for you.

p.s. although what I have written is true, it should be seen as a tongue in cheek response.


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## baboon (31 December 2007)

ba229, I'll agree with using your margin loan interest as a tax deduction. 

However, I'd be a bit cautious about your brilliant part of the plan as any capital losses can only be put against your capital gains.  So if your constantly taking capital losses you would 

1. Not make money, instead lose your income (which has already been taxed, so no tax saving here) and, 

2. You can not claim capital losses against your income tax.

Just thought I'd clear that up.  HAPPY NEW YEAR!


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## Sparksy (2 January 2008)

Prem said:


> On the subject of tax, How come minors are taxed more than adults?
> 
> Thanks in advance!




Sorry i just read this and have no idea how you came up with this?
I've had a few late nights since NYE but i thought everyone was taxed at the same rate.


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## lakemac (3 January 2008)

Happy new year to you all.

Sparksy, unfortunately some animals are more equal than others (with credit to Animal Farm by George Orwell...).

Ok lets do a basic tutorial on taxation as it applies to Australian residents (by the way adobee, it is Cayman Islands, not Kaymen  )

(Disclaimer: I am not a financial planner, nor lawyer, nor accountant but I have had extensive exposure to, study of and involvement in taxation issues, structures and tax planning for my own investments spanning 30 years. As always seek your own professional advice. The following is a guide only. Yada yada yada...).

1. There are two tax acts of importance - the "1936 Act" and the "1997 Act". The 1997 Act was an (abortive) attempt to rewrite the 1936 Act. Both acts are current and both have application to share trading.

2. The 1936 Act (mainly) deals with INCOME issues. The 1997 Act incorporates the CAPITAL Gains Tax (CGT) regime. However there are major overlaps between both, so be warned.

3. Some tax accounting basics:
3.1 CAPITAL represents your assets eg. shares, businesses, real estate, art, collectibles, rights to intellectual property etc.
3.2 INCOME is what you earn (or lose) in a particular financial year from ALL sources any where in the world (this also means that adobee's Cayman Island idea will not work - cf the ATO's Wickenby taskforce - they are investigating this very issue).

4. INCOME in any particular financial year may include the gain (or loss) from the sale of a CAPITAL item. The CAPITAL GAIN or CAPITAL LOSS gets converted into an amount of taxable INCOME in the year you sell the CAPITAL item (ie shares or real estate or any other item of value).

5. Note that it is only when you sell (sometimes called "realise") a captial item that it must be treated as an income item. See the various CGT "events" in the 1997 Act. If you hold a CAPITAL item under our (current) tax system you do not (usually) pay tax on the "unrealised" capital gain. Not selling is by far the best way to avoid CGT.

Now the next question is how do you calculate your INCOME for a particular financial year which may include CAPITAL gains and/or losses.
(Note this is very simplified - always seek a competent accountant or read the tax acts yourself if you have the skill/time/need  )

1. Firstly work out if you are a trader or investor or speculator.
As it says in the law - this is a matter of fact not form.
The basic rules (see the ASX website for some excellent white papers on this) are these:
a. if you have a "system", trade regularly throughout the year then you are a trader. Your gains/losses are treated as INCOME not CAPITAL and you can deduct the cost of trading in that year. To work out your gain/loss you subtract your buy price + cost of purchase (eg brokerage) from your sell price less costs of sale. There is no CGT "discount" as you are not deemed to be making any CAPITAL gain - you are only making INCOME.
b. if you hold for more than 12 months (or more) and trade rarely then you are an investor. When you sell you are making a CAPITAL gain (or loss). You may be entitled to claim the CGT "discount" when you calculate your INCOME for the year by adding in the CAPITAL gain (or loss) to your other INCOME. Normally you can't deduct the costs of brokerage in your INCOME it must be taken as part of the CAPITAL cost (called the "cost base") and can only be claimed when you sell the CAPITAL item. Similary the costs of selling the item are only deductable at the time of sale.
c. speculators fall in between these two. Typically they buy IPO's (new listings). Grey area. Seek professional advice.

By the way the above applies to real estate too (not that many people "trade" real estate).

Since the thread is about CGT we must be "investors" typically holding shares for longer than 12 months and not "traders" buying and selling on a "regular" basis. Notice I say typically. You could sell in less than 12 months but the CGT discount (currently 50%) would not apply to that sale.

What is the CGT discount? It is a tax concession handed out by the previous Howard government. Basically it arose because the amount of tax collected by CGT was obscenly more than they had hoped for. To assuage the voters they changed the tax acts so that anyone holding CAPTIAL assets for more than 12 months would be given a discount on the amount of tax paid on CAPITAL gains.

The way it works is that when you calculate your taxable INCOME for a particular year you add together INCOME items (wages, dividends etc) then add any CAPITAL gain (or loss) (the full amount of gain at this point in the calculation) then deduct expenses to work out your taxable INCOME. It is at this point you deduct 50% of the capital gain from your taxable INCOME. (There are complex reasons why the calculation is done this way - see the 1997 Act).

Now the tax on your "taxable" INCOME is calculated. This is where tax planning comes into play. The trick to tax planning is ALWAYS put the plan into action BEFORE buying your assets. Doing it after the asset has risen in value doesn't work.

1. There are three basic entities that the tax acts deal with: individuals, trusts and companies.

2. As previously pointed out not all individuals are treated equally. And as also correctly pointed out the reason children's "unearnt income" is taxed at a higher rate is to stop parents splitting their income to their children so as to minimise their tax obligation. However there is a tax loophole for those paying Child Support where "unearnt income" can be taxed at normal tax rates.

3. CAPITAL gains earnt by trusts are split according to the trust's deed (which may include discretionary powers for the trustee to determine the split). The CAPITAL gains thus split are treated as being attributed to the beneficiary (which could be a person, company or another trust). Thus if you are a beneficiary of a trust that has made a CAPITAL gain an it distributes you some of that CAPITAL gain then you include it in your INCOME for that year. If the trust has held the item for more than 12 months the CGT discount also attaches to your portion of the gain (there are some complexities here to do with Family Trust Elections etc. Seek expert advice). If the trust does not distribute it is taxed at the top marginal rate.

4. Companies don't recieve the 50% CGT discount when they sell a CAPITAL asset they own  however their top tax rate is 30%. So if you think about it the top marginal rate is currently 46.5% with the 50% CGT discount you pay tax on your gain at 23.25%. Thus companies end up paying an extra 6.75% tax on gains they make (compared to the top marginal rate). Why use a company at all? Best reason: as a beneficiary of a trust they only pay 30% tax on ALL income. You park unused income from a trust there. But be careful there are many traps (109XA and Div7A in the 1936 Act are particularly tricky).

So to minimise your CGT:

1. Cayman Islands is out - ATO will be onto you faster than a randy bull on heat.

2. Hold the asset for more than 12 months - preferably in a trust then split the CAPTIAL gain to the lowest taxed INDIVIDUAL and apply the 50% CGT discount. Unused income should go to a corporate beneificiary.

3. If you have Child Support obligations consider a Child Maintenance Trust as being an option.

4. Keep good records of all the costs to buy and hold the CAPITAL asset. This will form your "cost base" which is deducted at the time you sell the asset. Note there are some tax rules for long term retention of records. Your accountant can create a "asset register" which the ATO will consider to be evidence of your "cost base" without having to keep originals - personally I keep the originals in a good filing system with photocopy backups.

5. Sell assets that have lost value ie. a CAPITAL loss. You can offset the CAPITAL losses against other CAPITAL gains (in most circumstances - again seek professional advice). Note you can't offset a CAPITAL loss against INCOME. It must be like with like, however the class of capital loss/gain can be different ie. you can offset a share CAPITAL loss against a real estate CAPITAL gain.

6. Place/grow assets in self managed super funds (SMSF). Note super funds can now borrow (with some real complications - yeah you know: seek professional advice). Super funds pay no CGT when the member retires after the age of 60 (at the moment - it will go up over time). Personally I don't like super - too much government red tape. I tend to favor (and use) trusts and companies. (By the way you can have multiple SMSF if you want to separate different assets).


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## Plugger (5 January 2008)

At the end of the financial year, does one's broker mail all the transactions so I can see what gains/losses I have?


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## lakemac (5 January 2008)

Hi Plugger, that depends on the type of broker you have.

A so called "full service broker" might offer that as a service to its clients.

Most "internet brokers" usually provide downloads of all your contract notes for the year. You have to download and print those yourself.


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## Kimosabi (5 January 2008)

Get rid of the ATO, it isn't even a "Legal Entity" which has been admitted by the Deputy Commisioner of Taxation in Court!!!












http://www.brumbywatchaustralia.com/Principality12.htm


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## Plugger (5 January 2008)

lakemac said:


> Hi Plugger, that depends on the type of broker you have.
> 
> A so called "full service broker" might offer that as a service to its clients.
> 
> Most "internet brokers" usually provide downloads of all your contract notes for the year. You have to download and print those yourself.




Ah thanks, that's what I've been doing with the notes. But geez you'd hate to make 100's of trades a year and add them all up. Sure I could get an accountant to do it, and I might well do that in the future, but I like using e-tax and learning a few things.


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## lakemac (6 January 2008)

Plugger - Excel is your friend  (sometimes LOL)

I do trade (options) quite frequently and yes it is a logistical nightmare. However I have several spreadsheets that do most of the drudge work for me. So my accountant has very little to do.

If you are serious about trading or investing then accurate record keeping is a must.


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## lakemac (6 January 2008)

Ah my old friend Kimosabi, how goest thou?

In that notice of defence written by the ATO where they say that the ATO is not a legal entity, they are correct but you have mis-interpreted what that statement means.

A legal entity means an entity that has a DISTINCT SEPARATION at law from another entity. eg. You and I are distinct legal entities.

The Dep Comm. is not saying the ATO is illegal, he is merely stating that they are not a seperate legal entity from the Crown. Telstra on the other hand (before being privatised) was a seperate legal entity from the Crown. You may have heard the term QANGO - quasi autonomous non government organisation. The ATO is part of the Treasury Dept which is part of the Australian government apparatus.

Of course the question arises about the legal status of the Crown in Australia - is the Commonwealth a legal entity per se. But that is a topic for another thread.

Australian law recognises the following legal entities:
Individuals - ie. people (note a sole trader's business is NOT a separate legal entity. At law the entity is the sole trader him/herself).
Partnerships - two or more legal entities
Companies
Trusts
The Crown
(I am sure I have forgotten one...)

So in the same way as the ATO is not a legal entity a sole trader's business is not a legal entity. The sole trader is the legal entity. So too is the Crown in the case of the ATO.


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