# Census - 9 August 2016



## Logique (21 July 2016)

First I'd heard of this. I think it's an outrageous intrusion on people's privacy to demand and save their names in the census.

Also, doesn't it undermine the accuracy of the results?  Will anyone want to give the census chapter and verse now?

Joe - did a quick search, sorry if a duplicate thread 



> *The Bureau of Statistics endangers the census by asking for names* - July 20 2016 - Peter Martin, SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-b...nsus-by-asking-for-names-20160719-gq9crr.html
> 
> Expect to hear lots about the census. From August 1 we will be getting letters advising us of our login codes instead of the traditional hand-delivered forms. The catchphrase is "get online on August 9".
> 
> ...


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2016)

More intrusion of government busy bodies into our lives.

I'm thinking of calling myself a Muslim to stuff up their database, but I don't want visits from ASIO.

Maybe I'll be a satanist.

:evilburn:


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## McLovin (21 July 2016)

Logique said:


> Also, doesn't it undermine the accuracy of the results?  Will anyone want to give the census chapter and verse now?




They can take me to court. I will not be providing my name.


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## pixel (21 July 2016)

How about "I don't have a computer."


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## Ijustnewit (21 July 2016)

This is an invasion of privacy , what information can they possibly want that they can not get from other data bases. What I'm saying things like your tax return , bank accounts , super , rates , electricity bills , the use of medicare services all of these things are on already known to Governments. I have just been put through 9 months of compulsory surveys from the ABS and they wanted to know the ins and outs of a monkeys bum every month. If you forgot to fill out the survey online after daily demands by phone calls and texts they came knocking at the door at dinner time . I felt totally invaded and again the crap they wanted know would have been easily available to them elsewhere had they done some ground work. I will demand a paper survey and I'm refusing to do it online , that way I can scribble and they will have to decipher that , I might also say the cat ate it


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## noco (21 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> More intrusion of government busy bodies into our lives.
> 
> I'm thinking of calling myself a Muslim to stuff up their database, but I don't want visits from ASIO.
> 
> ...




If you have done nothing wrong in your life, you have nothing to fear.

OK but FFS don't tell them you are a radical.


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## Tisme (27 July 2016)

Lifted from facebook


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## SirRumpole (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> Lifted from facebook
> 
> View attachment 67560




Hey, you know they now want your name ? Do you want Moslem, gay or atheist gangs on your doorstep ?


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## sptrawler (27 July 2016)

Hey, come on, it just goes in with your "my gov" stuff, who doesn't want a big brother?

Mine used to beat me up, I hope this one isn't nasty.


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## poverty (28 July 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> I have just been put through 9 months of compulsory surveys from the ABS and they wanted to know the ins and outs of a monkeys bum every month. If you forgot to fill out the survey online after daily demands by phone calls and texts they came knocking at the door at dinner time . I felt totally invaded




This happened to a bloke I know, he repeatedly ignored their letters and phone calls and when they came door knocking he repeatedly told them where they could stick it.  I do remember finding it pretty funny at the time, but what an unbelievable invasion of privacy it is.  I actually think he was targeted, ie/ Centrelink/ATO wanted some dirt on him and sent in the ABS to try and dig it up.


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## qldfrog (28 July 2016)

poverty said:


> This happened to a bloke I know, he repeatedly ignored their letters and phone calls and when they came door knocking he repeatedly told them where they could stick it.  I do remember finding it pretty funny at the time, but what an unbelievable invasion of privacy it is.  I actually think he was targeted, ie/ Centrelink/ATO wanted some dirt on him and sent in the ABS to try and dig it up.



Had same experience in the past, initially full of good will, after a while was really fed up (it is ongoing and ongoing asking you again and again the same questions AND starting by threatening you as a letter introduction;
I then made sure it was done in a flash with rubbish answers.
I am very tempted to fill the census in the same way; tweaking it to my beliefs.
As many have said before, they only need to reconcile their existing databases to know most of the data, which they do already to make sure you pay taxes, even when they are wrong.They being government/ato (more or less the same nowadays)
So do not want to be trustfull at all.Life is too short


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## Tisme (28 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hey, you know they now want your name ? Do you want Moslem, gay or atheist gangs on your doorstep ?




I don't have a problem with giving my name and details. That's one way I have managed to trace and document my family history.

Sure it might cause some angst for my female descendants knowing the old fella had nefarious women in his house on the night, but what fella doesn't admire a man's man in their ancestral bloodlines?


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## qldfrog (28 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't have a problem with giving my name and details. That's one way I have managed to trace and document my family history.
> 
> Sure it might cause some angst for my female descendants knowing the old fella had nefarious women in his house on the night, but what fella doesn't admire a man's man in their ancestral bloodlines?



great idea: what is the reasonable number of 20y to 30y old un attached ladies I can set as sharing my bed on the 9th?


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## Logique (1 August 2016)

It's compulsory to complete the form, but is it compulsory  to be honest? 

Look for a severe drop in national average incomes. And wild gyrations in the national average age. There will be the usual diversity of religions. The Jedi religion will make it's usual appearance, and may grow.

The number of unemployed may rise steeply. The number employed on 9 August might slump on average. However the level of unpaid domestic work might soar.

All avoidable, via the simple expedient of making the Census anonymous! 

Disclaimer: I urge all to obey Australian law.


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## McLovin (1 August 2016)

Logique said:


> is it compulsory  to be honest?




Yes




Logique said:


> Disclaimer: I urge all to obey Australian law.




How about the ABS starts following the law.


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## trainspotter (2 August 2016)

McLovin said:


> They can take me to court. I will not be providing my name.




I will visit you in jail ...



> Is this the most intrusive Census ever? An $1800 fine if you fill out the form incorrectly, $180 a day if you submit it late - and the government will keep your personal details for FOUR years
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-personal-information-kept.html#ixzz4G7yCXEuo




SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO how is it the census is directed to "The Resident" and HOW will they enforce fines if they don't know who you are? Take a minute to thunk about THAT !

UNLESS they already have your name in a data bank in ASIO and they will marry up your name on the census with the metadata they already have on your file.

SCARY **** PEEPS. 



> *Mr Libreri said the ABS had 'a number of quality control measures in place' to detect if someone had provided false information, however, he did not want to detail them.*
> This year, details like names and addresses will be held for four years until 2020, compared to 18 months in the past.
> In previous years, those details were collected but deleted once other Census data had been recorded.




DERP !!! Yep he just admitted to it


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## Logique (2 August 2016)

If you fill out the form ..incorrectly!  I wonder how the Aust Bureau of Statistics will establish this.

At some point the Census has become ancillary to the tax return, which may be a partial explanation for the oppressive intrusiveness of it.


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## Wysiwyg (2 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> DERP !!! Yep he just admitted to it



Un friggin believable that these snoops know personal stuff already. :bad:


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## Tisme (2 August 2016)

I thought we voted no to an Australia Card back in the Hawke days?

If govt is linking our data which anti civil liberties party is doing it?

qldfrog a list of women I'm putting in residence:

Jenna Jameson
Tori Black
Asia Carrerra
and Dawn Wells with a coconut cream pie.


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## Bill M (2 August 2016)

pixel said:


> How about "I don't have a computer."




They had an old lady on the TV last night saying she was calling the 1800 they provided for you to ask for a paper census. She couldn't get through after trying all day. The answer from them was, "keep on trying". Geeeezzz can't they get some extra people on to answer the phone for the oldies? Some of them never used the internet in their lives. As the old lady said "spare a thought for us oldies."


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## Smurf1976 (2 August 2016)

Bill M said:


> They had an old lady on the TV last night saying she was calling the 1800 they provided for you to ask for a paper census. She couldn't get through after trying all day.




If they're insisting that people fill in the form then it should at least be possible to get one in the first place.

Not everyone owns a computer, particularly older people, and even then there will always be those who do have a computer but it's broken, they just move house and haven't set up an internet connection yet or whatever.

There's a need for paper forms and they ought to be easily available. Print a heap of them and make them available at newsagents, petrol stations, supermarkets etc at no cost for anyone who wants one. That seems like an easy solution to me - it's not as though it would cost $ billions or something like that.


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## McLovin (2 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> If they're insisting that people fill in the form then it should at least be possible to get one in the first place.
> 
> Not everyone owns a computer, particularly older people, and even then there will always be those who do have a computer but it's broken, they just move house and haven't set up an internet connection yet or whatever.
> 
> There's a need for paper forms and they ought to be easily available. Print a heap of them and make them available at newsagents, petrol stations, supermarkets etc at no cost for anyone who wants one. That seems like an easy solution to me - it's not as though it would cost $ billions or something like that.




The form has to be coded to the dwelling it is going to. The coding, AFAIK, is not done to the individual dwelling but grouped to say blocks. 

A few people are ordering forms to fill out to avoid having to enter name and address information.


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## trainspotter (2 August 2016)

McLovin said:


> *The form has to be coded to the dwelling it is going to.* The coding, AFAIK, is not done to the individual dwelling but grouped to say blocks.
> 
> A few people are ordering forms to fill out to avoid having to enter name and address information.




Yes ... Then they check rates notices with local shire and the State Revenue Dept. to see when you bought the property to ensure it is linked to the ATO for capital gains purposes (when you sell) etc etc.

ECHELON, originally a secret government code name, is a surveillance program (signals intelligence / SIGINT collection and analysis network) operated on behalf of the five signatory nations to the UKUSA Security Agreement””Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States.

It has NOTHING to do with a census but more of of an information gathering exercise to test the information they already have in place. To track down welfare cheats receiving family allowances when they are in a defacto relationship or to trap people claiming that it is a rental property when in actual fact it is their PPOR blah blah blah.

Get my drift?


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## Wysiwyg (2 August 2016)

I have never done a census form but I will have to this time as they have found me due to the fact I am now a mortgagor on this property. Before, I moved around renting and was never in one place long enough to be a person of interest. I don't need to be told I must give personal information. That infringes on my free will. Who I am is no ones business unless I say so.


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## Knobby22 (2 August 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I have never done a census form but I will have to this time as they have found me due to the fact I am now a mortgagee on this property. Before, I moved around renting and was never in one place long enough to be a person of interest. I don't need to be told I must give personal information. That infringes on my free will.




Come on, it's not that bad. Why not help out.
Imagine the Roman census.


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## Wysiwyg (3 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Come on, it's not that bad. Why not help out.
> Imagine the Roman census.



I seek reimbursement for the 1300 number I have called at 40c per call. At the moment it is 10 calls for a $4 cost! 

Buy Telstra on the bonus revenue?


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## DB008 (3 August 2016)

First census I've ever done. 

Turnbull saying the data will be kept safe.

LOL LOL LOL


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## noco (3 August 2016)

I do not know why there is so much resistance to this census.....Some seems to being putting up so many obstacles.

I did it on line without a hitch...15 minutes at the most.


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## bellenuit (3 August 2016)

noco said:


> I do not know why there is so much resistance to this census.....Some seems to being putting up so many obstacles.
> 
> I did it on line without a hitch...15 minutes at the most.




You can do it already? I thought it could only be done on census night. Previously you entered for everyone staying in your house on census night, even if visiting. Is it still the same? What if I do for my son who occasionally stays over on a night he is here and someone in his household (he lives with 3 others) includes him on a night he is with them?

I agree there is too much fuss over it. They have gathered names and addresses for quite a long time now. The only thing different this time is that the keep the identification data for 4 years instead of 2. If they had nefarious intentions, then they would have plenty time to do them in 2 years.


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## SirRumpole (4 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> You can do it already? I thought it could only be done on census night. Previously you entered for everyone staying in your house on census night, even if visiting. Is it still the same? What if I do for my son who occasionally stays over on a night he is here and someone in his household (he lives with 3 others) includes him on a night he is with them?




You have to do it on the night if you are going online. A lady came and left the form with me and since I know who will be there on the night I just filled the form it and will post it.


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## Bill M (4 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You have to do it on the night if you are going online. A lady came and left the form with me and since I know who will be there on the night I just filled the form it and will post it.




It doesn't say it has to be done on the night.

It says, "Please complete the census on Tuesday 9 August 2016". I will be doing mine around 4 PM or so when it is quiet and most people are still at work, so should be quick and easy. Who knows the website might crash at 8PM when you got a few million doing it.


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## qldfrog (4 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> You can do it already? I thought it could only be done on census night. Previously you entered for everyone staying in your house on census night, even if visiting. Is it still the same?



still same and you should not do it in advance.
The fact that based on that entry you could fill it in advance make a mockery of the census; how can anyone know where he will be next week?
i play no God myself...


bellenuit said:


> I agree there is too much fuss over it. They have gathered names and addresses for quite a long time now. The only thing different this time is that the keep the identification data for 4 years instead of 2. If they had nefarious intentions, then they would have plenty time to do them in 2 years.



no they have not in the previous if you did not want to, and if you read again, the only option you have is to prevent them releasing the name data publicly in 99 year..yep not joking;
None of the info I have to fill is not known already from the ato and centerlink.
I will make sure they can exercise their data cross checking before forwarding to the NSA


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## noco (4 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> still same and you should not do it in advance.
> The fact that based on that entry you could fill it in advance make a mockery of the census; how can anyone know where he will be next week?
> i play no God myself...
> 
> ...




I was given a pass word and when I completed it I was issued with a receipt #.


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## Tisme (4 August 2016)

The bloke in charge of the ABS said something like we have until September XX to complete and submit. so old people don't panic about the forms coming.

I wonder how much the unforeseen cost of the unforeseen extra 100 phone staff, unforeseen extra phone lines, unforeseen extra postage is, weighed against just sending everyone a paper copy with the option of internet participation in the first place? (I don't believe our Scott Morrison and the $100m saving when he opens his congenitally misleading lips).


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## Logique (4 August 2016)

What are the odds of a server crash at 6:30pm on census night. 

I don't recall name details ever being kept before, let alone for 4 years. 

Not sure yet whether to complete on paper or online.  Probably online, but only after a complete system scan and in incognito mode.


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## bellenuit (4 August 2016)

Collecting Names and Addresses



qldfrog said:


> no they have not in the previous if you did not want to, and if you read again, the only option you have is to prevent them releasing the name data publicly in 99 year..yep not joking;
> None of the info I have to fill is not known already from the ato and centerlink.
> I will make sure they can exercise their data cross checking before forwarding to the NSA




Yes, you are correct. I was basing my information on what was said by the ABS guy on ABC's 7:30 last night (maybe it was Lateline). Apparently it has been collected before, but only on a voluntary basis. I am surprised the interviewer didn't pick him up on this.


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## qldfrog (4 August 2016)

noco said:


> I was given a pass word and when I completed it I was issued with a receipt #.



amazing so if you happen to go to hospital after a steak knife cut on the night, you will be counted twice
Not blaming you but a census like that, it is a joke,so one more good reason not to trust such incompetence, as for data safety and public service.....


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## noco (4 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> amazing so if you happen to go to hospital after a steak knife cut on the night, you will be counted twice
> Not blaming you but a census like that, it is a joke,so one more good reason not to trust such incompetence, as for data safety and public service.....




I do hope I will survive until August 9....Just had a repair completed which should give me another 12 months lease of life....LOL.


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## qldfrog (4 August 2016)

noco said:


> I do hope I will survive until August 9....Just had a repair completed which should give me another 12 months lease of life....LOL.



sure  but you see my point, as a minimum, the online connection should ask you to try again: you can be late: fair, but should not be able to fill earlier.
 I know that statistically:it  does not matter but when you add this to people like me who will fill...as they feel it let's say..ensuring I do not get fined but also that my data is unusable for negative purpose.it may add up, actually I wish it does. might also include a few cartoon characters to my household to ensure the local road network get properly sized
I was happy to fill my last census accurately..not anymore.
Make your own mind, this country really needs a human right/5th amendment protection, we are still treated as convicts except that the rulers have changed and were from the rank..once...


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## McLovin (4 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> I agree there is too much fuss over it. They have gathered names and addresses for quite a long time now. The only thing different this time is that the keep the identification data for 4 years instead of 2. If they had nefarious intentions, then they would have plenty time to do them in 2 years.




That's not entirely correct. The use of names and addresses has in the past has been for data quality, ie if you ask someone to put their name and address on something the answers they give will more truthful. I don't have a problem with that, I think the Census is of great benefit. 

The names and addresses were never collated into a database, they were destroyed. The ABS is being disingenuous in saying they kept names and addresses for 18 months in the past. Names and addresses were kept until the data had been processed or 18 months had passed. This time around the names and addresses are being kept for four years (that seems to be a recent change, it was initially open ended) and added to a database "for a richer experience" or whatever phrase they are using. 

The ABS has given some very weak reasons for this (I've only heard the example of better measuring aboriginal life expectancy, which seems like a worthwhile endeavour, but doesn't really mean much to this inner city white male), and to be honest have done a p!ss poor job of explaining why there is any need at all to keep such sensitive information. My beef is that the tradeoff with the Census is I'll give you (the ABS) highly private information about my life, and in return you don't know who is giving you the information. Once they change their rules, I change mine.

I also point out that the online census logs your IP address. Handy thing for a government to have when they are capturing meta data too.


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## McLovin (4 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Make your own mind, this country really needs a human right/5th amendment protection, we are still treated as convicts except that the rulers have changed and were from the rank..once...




Aside from grand juries, which part of the Fifth Amendment does Australia law not already protect?

The Fifth is just another ripoff of English law.


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## Ves (4 August 2016)

McLovin said:


> I also point out that the online census logs your IP address. Handy thing for a government to have when they are capturing meta data too.



They are most likely already able to get your IP address through other means.

Not really directed at McLovin,  but a general comment:

The whole outrage over the Census and privacy is bizarre; for instance when the Coalition and the ALP waved through Mandatory Data Retention laws during the last parliament barely anyone batted an eyelid, especially not the media.

I don't get it.  Much worse invasions of privacy have been happening for many years at both the government and corporate level and no one has seemed to care.


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## McLovin (4 August 2016)

Ves said:


> They are most likely already able to get your IP address through other means.




I'm not suggesting they couldn't, but why the need? It's specifically being retained, not incidental to the data collection.



Ves said:


> The whole outrage over the Census and privacy is bizarre; for instance when the Coalition and the ALP waved through Mandatory Data Retention laws during the last parliament barely anyone batted an eyelid, especially not the media.
> 
> I don't get it.  Much worse invasions of privacy have been happening for many years at both the government and corporate level and no one has seemed to care.




And I was on here when those laws were being passed calling them a disgrace, but as usual was met with the "if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to hide". If people want to volunteer their information to the government or Facebook or Google that's their choice. All these laws are just the slow creep of the government invading people's private lives. When CCTV was first going to be introduced on George St in Sydney back in the mid-90s there was uproar about the invasion of privacy. No one says anything about it now. When sniffer dogs were introduced to NSW public transport there was uproar. No one says anything about it. The meta data stuff got through even though the AG had NFI about what it actually meant. And now the census is being run as a massive data collection project on individuals.

Wait for a terrorist attack in Australia and then the need to match the data to individuals "for national security".


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## Wysiwyg (4 August 2016)

I thought I posted on this thread about the collecting of census information being a help to law enforcement agencies in the fight against terrorism. Did anyone see that?


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## SirRumpole (4 August 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I thought I posted on this thread about the collecting of census information being a help to law enforcement agencies in the fight against terrorism. Did anyone see that?




No sorry.


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## basilio (8 August 2016)

The more I look at the Census the more concerns I have about the risk of  our personal information  and identity being hijacked for a range of dangerous options.

The fact the previous head of the ABS has spoken out so strongly against the compulsory nature of of providing names is another brick in the wall. Nick Xenaphon has pulled together all the pieces of this smelly story and it stinks.



> *
> Census privacy fears: Nick Xenophon to withhold name in push for 'test case' Senator says he will seek amendments to act and challenge government’s ability to prosecute Australians
> *
> 
> ...




http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/08/the-greens-and-nick-xenophon-speak-out-against-the-census/

https://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ABS-Census_2016_and_Privacy_v8.pdf
Excellent analysis by Bill McLennan on Privacy and the 2016 Census


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## noco (8 August 2016)

basilio said:


> The more I look at the Census the more concerns I have about the risk of  our personal information  and identity being hijacked for a range of dangerous options.
> 
> The fact the previous head of the ABS has spoken out so strongly against the compulsory nature of of providing names is another brick in the wall. Nick Xenaphon has pulled together all the pieces of this smelly story and it stinks.
> 
> ...




So the off beat Xenaphone puts his head in the fire and you are going to do the same......What do you have to fear.....The ABS has guaranteed privacy for all....I cannot see the problem.

How do you expect the Government to misuse the information.....You have to put your name on your tax return.


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## trainspotter (8 August 2016)

The guvmint is simply "back testing" the information they have on you now. They are just aligning your residential address with your Census number to ensure the information they have is correct.

The fun will start when people claiming defacto status or Part A & B family allowance tax etc will hit the spinning blades thusly saving the tax payers millions in handouts.


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## noco (8 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> The guvmint is simply "back testing" the information they have on you now. They are just aligning your residential address with your Census number to ensure the information they have is correct.
> 
> The fun will start when people claiming defacto status or Part A & B family allowance tax etc will hit the spinning blades thusly saving the tax payers millions in handouts.




So in other words those refusing to put their names on paper are frightened of losing their Government handouts....I now see it all......There are those who are really taking money from the government illegitimately and don't want to be found out....Well BULLY for them.


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## trainspotter (9 August 2016)

noco said:


> So in other words those refusing to put their names on paper are frightened of losing their Government handouts....I now see it all......There are those who are really taking money from the government illegitimately and don't want to be found out....Well BULLY for them.




YES noco ... it is about trimming the curve. A snip here and a snip there ...well you know the rest. Tightening of the belt and all that ... eh what !


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## Tisme (9 August 2016)

noco said:


> So the off beat Xenaphone puts his head in the fire and you are going to do the same......What do you have to fear.....The ABS has guaranteed privacy for all....I cannot see the problem.
> 
> How do you expect the Government to misuse the information.....You have to put your name on your tax return.




Don't you remember the Australia Card Noco? Back then we were all still sensitive to the threat to personal freedoms of the fascist regimes a generation before.

True it doesn't worry me to cough up my details, but I think that should be a voluntary activity.


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## trainspotter (9 August 2016)

This Census, the ABS will keep name-identified information for longer than it has previously. Names and addresses will now be kept for up to 4 years (previously it was around 18 months) in order to link Census data sets to other collections, before being destroyed.

*Does that mean the government can link up your Census answers with your tax return or Centrelink information?*



> No. The ABS cannot do this and there are large penalties for this sort of information sharing. Even if it were allowed, it’s also very hard for this to occur as the questions asked by different agencies are not the same, making it almost impossible to compare the data. From a statistics perspective, if you ask a different question you cannot align the data. For example, the taxable income information you supply to the ATO is different to the income information you provide in the Census. The Census asks, “What is the usual amount you receive each week in income?” which is collected in broad income ranges and does not include any pensions or allowances.
> 
> *But to reiterate, the ABS cannot and will not share any personal information with other departments or private companies. This will never happen.*




http://blog.id.com.au/2016/population/australian-census-2016/census-2016-questions-answered/

And if you believe that then you should start wearing one of these ....


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## So_Cynical (9 August 2016)

I didn't receive a personalized form in the mail.


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## Logique (9 August 2016)

basilio said:


> The more I look at the Census the more concerns I have about the risk of  our personal information  and identity being hijacked for a range of dangerous options.
> 
> The fact the previous head of the ABS has spoken out so strongly against the compulsory nature of of providing names is another brick in the wall. Nick Xenaphon has pulled together all the pieces of this smelly story and it stinks.
> http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/08/the-greens-and-nick-xenophon-speak-out-against-the-census/
> ...



Some Federal and State Greens pollies have also announced today they won't be providing their names.

A test case is a good idea, and I hope Xenophon and the Greens force one. This has been an ambush by the ABS.


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## SmokeyGhost (9 August 2016)

Don't thunk I can even complete the thing.  I don't recall receiving nuffin in the mail from the ABS but then it seems it was a generic letter such as "To the householder." If so, it's probably been recycled as waste as I tend to look at to whom a letter is addressed not who it's from.  That stuff is just advertising junk to me so I immediately throw it out.

And I've tried the hotline but I'm not prepared to wait on the frigging phone for two or more hours because they're busy.

Oh well, I'll simply see what happens.  Something usually does.


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## Knobby22 (9 August 2016)

Logique said:


> Some Federal and State Greens pollies have also announced today they won't be providing their names.
> 
> A test case is a good idea, and I hope Xenophon and the Greens force one. This has been an ambush by the ABS.




They can trace us all using other methods anyway if they wanted to, mobile phone, tax, credit card, you name it. It's just to make it easy. if we get over a 10% non compliance factor (like the last election) it will pretty much be a waste of time and money.


----------



## Bill M (9 August 2016)

Just got on the census.abs.gov.au
site and this message was there:

---
We are experiencing a high volume of calls

Do not worry if you have not received your Census materials. You will not be fined if you complete your Census after Census night. Try calling again after August 10 when we expect call volumes to reduce.
---


----------



## bellenuit (9 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> They can trace us all using other methods anyway if they wanted to, mobile phone, tax, credit card, you name it. It's just to make it easy. if we get over a 10% non compliance factor (like the last election) it will pretty much be a waste of time and money.




Well, since the forms were mailed to our residential addresses and presumably our unique login key is linked to that, it shouldn't be hard to find out who is who. Particularly when Age and Sex is also specified. A bit harder for tenanted property, but not impossible.


----------



## Bill M (9 August 2016)

Just did mine, only took 20 minutes, not a big deal. I'm not at all worried about giving my name and address, they know all about me already, in multiple ways.


----------



## peter2 (9 August 2016)

This organisation had five years to prepare for this census. What a mess! I haven't received any notice and I can't get through on the phone to order a form without the nine-digit code. Why didn't they print a few million forms and distribute them to Post Offices or newsagents? 

This organistion has the audacity to think they are capable of reporting accurate data to the government! 

Edit: Good grief, I've posted in the general chat section!


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2016)

peter2 said:


> This organistion has the audacity to think they are capable of reporting accurate data to the government!
> 
> Edit: Good grief, I've posted in the general chat section!




lol


----------



## SmokeyGhost (9 August 2016)

Thanks Bill M.  I will complete the census despite my doubts as to it's actual usefulness as Governments seem to usually make funding decisions based on a politics rather than according to verifiable data.

However, to get my revenge in having to provide my name I've decided to spit in the face of the pleadings of various genealogy groups so that, in the future, utter nobodies can peer back at the "life" of an utter nobody in the futile cause of family history and so will not agree for my name to be included with my data at the National Archives. That'll show 'em I mean business! Mind you, that particular law could be changed but I won't know about it.


----------



## explod (9 August 2016)

All a bit of a yaawn really.   Did mine in total compliance in about 10 minutes,  bit slow as I was happy hour sipping.  Got my reciept number and who cares.   Not about global warming anyway,  its past the point and overpopulation just about there too. 

Good luck with expansionism.   But Trump's gunna do it and with ****e of Clinton slowly emerging Trump will do it.


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2016)

ABS site presently a little sick.

Oh well!

Perhaps tomorrow.


----------



## trainspotter (9 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> ABS site presently a little sick.
> 
> Oh well!
> 
> Perhaps tomorrow.




A little sick? 





Must be all those poor people on the copper network clogging up the band width 

And they did not realise this was going to happen? DOUBLE


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2016)

I've now got an anaemic sign of life but it was all too brief.

Still looking very much like tomorrow.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> A little sick?
> 
> View attachment 67672
> 
> ...




I think the bandwidth is taken up by Anonymous (hacktivists) who got in early and are busy collecting our data as it appears on the ABS servers.  Like those wild bears who casually catch salmon as they swim upstream.  

Would be hilarious if tomorrow Anon releases a media statement saying "ABS, if you're looking for your data, we have it.  Please be more careful with protecting it next time".  :


----------



## wayneL (9 August 2016)

As expected, a schmozzle.

Oceania's IT department will have to get its act together.

Or is failure, success?


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2016)

It looks like the best that can be done tonight is to sit back and watch the crap to hit the fan.



> People trying to complete the census online have been met with numerous error messages, told the system is "overloaded", and advised to call back in two days when they phone a hotline for information.
> 
> By 8pm on Tuesday evening, it appeared the website abs.gov.au had crashed entirely, as an estimated 16 million people were due to log on to complete the census.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/cens...o-complete-census-online-20160809-gqop0g.html


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 August 2016)

I'm waiting for them to say "the site crashed because of unprecedented demand".  That would be a ripper!


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2016)

> The website hosting the first online version of the Australian census has gone down as thousands of people around the country attempted to complete the survey.
> 
> The Federal Government says work is underway to fix a major outage affecting the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) website this evening.
> 
> ...




"Agile and innovative" ? Sure.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 August 2016)

11:30pm and still not working.

Let me guess. Someone didn't do the maths and work out that the site needed to be able to cope with at least 500,000 people logged in all at once?


----------



## qldfrog (10 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> 11:30pm and still not working.
> 
> Let me guess. Someone didn't do the maths and work out that the site needed to be able to cope with at least 500,000 people logged in all at once?



Of course you have to trust these jokers with your data and be surprised if you have a stolen identity in the next year; 
After this mess never expect to have the government acknowledge any of the coming data breach..
We'll blame facebook or pokemons....


----------



## Bill M (10 August 2016)

Bill M said:


> Who knows the website might crash at 8PM when you got a few million doing it.






Logique said:


> What are the odds of a server crash at 6:30pm on census night.




And crash it did. Looks like they didn't plan very well for the 16 million people trying to do it online.



SmokeyGhost said:


> Don't thunk I can even complete the thing.  I don't recall receiving nuffin in the mail from the ABS but then it seems it was a generic letter such as "To the householder." If so, it's probably been recycled as waste as I tend to look at to whom a letter is addressed not who it's from.  That stuff is just advertising junk to me so I immediately throw it out.



Good point, a lot of people might have done the same. Obviously something they didn't think about.



peter2 said:


> This organisation had five years to prepare for this census. What a mess! I haven't received any notice and I can't get through on the phone to order a form without the nine-digit code. Why didn't they print a few million forms and distribute them to Post Offices or newsagents?
> 
> This organistion has the audacity to think they are capable of reporting accurate data to the government!




Yeah seems like a bit of a stuff up. Why couldn't they give the public better guidelines? Like, I didn't know you could do it early or have a Month after census night to complete it, they could have mentioned that on the form. Most people try to do the right thing, they just didn't plan on 16 million people hitting the servers at once. ABS=Fail.


----------



## SmokeyGhost (10 August 2016)

And now there is a statement by the chief statistician it was taken off line as a result of hacking from overseas sources.

Aside from that it probably would have crashed anyway as it is probable someone assumed a smooth load over 24 hours whereas, in reality, the attitude of many is to get on-line once they got home from work and get the matter over and done with.  So did anybody consider a stress test with say 8 million or more on-line at the same time?  Highly likely the answer is no; so big fail.


----------



## Logique (10 August 2016)

Logique said:


> What are the odds of a server crash at 6:30pm on census night...



I was out by an hour, they shut the site down at 7:30pm


----------



## Tisme (10 August 2016)

SmokeyGhost said:


> And now there is a statement by the chief statistician it was taken off line as a result of hacking from overseas sources.
> 
> Aside from that it probably would have crashed anyway as it is probable someone assumed a smooth load over 24 hours whereas, in reality, the attitude of many is to get on-line once they got home from work and get the matter over and done with.  So did anybody consider a stress test with say 8 million or more on-line at the same time?  Highly likely the answer is no; so big fail.




I'm sure there will be plenty meetings with lots of stern faces ... that alone should sort out the problem, not withstanding the technological solution.

Pretty sure "cyber attack" is code for SNAFU and is probably traceable back to the LNP's retirement home for their cronies = Telstra .... NBN anyone?


----------



## trainspotter (10 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm sure there will be plenty meetings with lots of stern faces ... that alone should sort out the problem, not withstanding the technological solution.
> 
> Pretty sure "cyber attack" is code for SNAFU and is probably traceable back to the LNP's retirement home for their cronies = Telstra .... NBN anyone?




I am with you on this one Tisme and I called Malcolm to find out what really happened ... but he was on the line to the ABS


----------



## Ijustnewit (10 August 2016)

I just knew it 
Read the story on the ABC and they saying that 2 million got through and put in their details and filled in the Census before the hack took effect. They go on to say those 2 million details were SAFELY STORED ... Yeah right we believe you. I'm glad I demanded a paper copy that will also be lost in the mail most likely.


----------



## trainspotter (10 August 2016)

> First the ABS replied the website was working just as expected. Then they shifted the fault back onto the public, suggesting the issue was probably people using out-of-date browsers or maybe we were all typing in the wrong web address. Silly Australians!




http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...l/news-story/f3163738579b430e30e48987e065912c

Like cockroaches in the kitchen when you turn on the light unexpectedly they scurry for the safety of under the fridge. (Or blame the people)

No wait ... let's blame the "hackers" ...




Must be the Chinese after we sledged 'em in the pool 

I can see Michael McCormack and David Kalisch having a conversation in the bunker and it goes like this ...

_"Yeah that's it ... Lett's blame Mack Horton for calling Sun Yang a "drug cheat" ... that will work, dumb Aussies will believe anything but PULEEEEZE don't tell them it crashed from lack of operating capacity"_


----------



## Gringotts Bank (10 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think the bandwidth is taken up by Anonymous (hacktivists) who got in early and are busy collecting our data as it appears on the ABS servers.  Like those wild bears who casually catch salmon as they swim upstream.




How about some props for this call?


----------



## drsmith (10 August 2016)

In a press conference this morning, the PM stated that that the ABS census site could cope with 260 submissions per second but reached 150 per second prior to the shut down due to the announced denial of service attacks.

260 per second equates to 936,000 per hour which I would have thought would struggle to be sufficient given the potential for the submission of many millions over a lesser number of hours on Tuesday evening.

ABS website is back up but the census website is still down as at the time of this post.


----------



## drsmith (10 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> I've now got an anaemic sign of life but it was all too brief.
> 
> Still looking very much like tomorrow.



The above brief sign of life may have been the following,



> August 9, 2016
> 
> 8:50pm
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-10/census-night-how-the-shambles-unfolded/7712964

Maybe today, maybe tomorrow.


----------



## drsmith (10 August 2016)

Presently looking more like tomorrow.


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2016)

I feel so much more comfortable now that Malcolm has endorsed IBM, ABS & Oz Signals Directorate advice that the census has not been compromised. Phew that makes me feel sooo much better.... of course he's not saying he thinks it's safe, just that the other three say it's safe.


I wouldn't mind hearing from Revolution IT about their assessment, given they were the bods who did the commissioning.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> 260 per second equates to 936,000 per hour which I would have thought would struggle to be sufficient given the potential for the submission of many millions over a lesser number of hours on Tuesday evening.



To what extent was site capacity the issue ?



> Mr Turnbull said there was some anomalous traffic on the night which turned out to be quite innocent and that caused the ABS to take the $470 million national survey down.
> 
> “So the site was not crashed by denial of service. But there was what you could describe as a confluence of events which caused the ABS to make that decision,” he said.




http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...y/news-story/ca419fe4e368656fd01f64eda44bbf19

It's taking a long time to get the Census site back up. I wonder if this is to provide extra capacity for the site.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (11 August 2016)

Still down.  

The load testing experts allowed for 1 million people accessing the site at once.  Are they aware that there's 23 million people in Australia?  

I don't work in IT and know nothing about load testing, but even I can come up with a bunch of measures to ensure a proper online census event.

How about allowing residents to download the questions in the months prior to the 9th.  The questions can be filled out without even being online.  On the 9th, you encrypt then zip the file, then send it via an email.   Have thousands of different email addresses to choose from, each linked to the ABS.  Any thoughts?

This took me 5 minutes to think of.  Maybe I'll send those incompetent dicks at the ABS and Revolution a bill for 500k.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Still down.



When trying to access the census page a little while ago, the browser attempted to load the page for a short period before I got the standard couldn't display the page. It then went back to the census website is unavailable page.

I wonder if that was a failed attempt to get the census site back up.

I don't know that I'm brave enough now. When it is back up (at this stage, I'll assume when rather than if), it might be best to wait a few days and see how the dust settles.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2016)

Mention bravery and,



> The Census website is now available
> 
> We apologise for the inconvenience and thank everyone for their patience.




https://stream20.census.abs.gov.au/eCensusWeb/welcome.jsp#top2

I'll see how available.......

EDIT:

No sign of life yet when I hit Complete My Census.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 August 2016)

IBM were the designers. I seem to recall they stuffed up some other system a few years ago from the Federal Government. Why do they keep going back?


----------



## pixel (11 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> To what extent was site capacity the issue ?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...y/news-story/ca419fe4e368656fd01f64eda44bbf19
> 
> It's taking a long time to get the Census site back up. I wonder if this is to provide extra capacity for the site.




by far the greater worry is the information that, in spite of the data entry burden shifted on the Australian citizens, the total cost is still reported to run to $470 million! Surely, 10M forms could be printed and mailed (twice) for under $10 a pop. Where did the other $370 million go? 
*What a waste of taxpayers' time AND money!*


----------



## SirRumpole (11 August 2016)

Not being an expert, but knowing that geo-blocking is a reality, wouldn't the census have employed some sort of geo blocking so that people outside Australia could not access the site ?

Or did they and it was circumvented ?


----------



## Knobby22 (11 August 2016)

Yes, found it.

You might remember IBM from such scandals as ‘We implemented a new solution to improve Queensland Health’s payroll system, and it was two years late, $1.18 billion over budget, and had more than 35,000 problems.’

I’m not kidding. $1.18 billion over budget (not counting legal costs, which I’ll get to shortly) on a contract worth just $6.19 million.

Caitlin Fitzimmons, writing for the Fin Review, has a good break down of what is surely the greatest IT swindle in global history here.

She notes: “The Queensland government and IBM agreed to a seven-month time frame to implement the new payroll system, with a go-live date of July 2008.

“IBM stands by the work it did for Queensland Health, though anecdotally it seems that the affair has tarnished Big Blue’s reputation in corporate Australia.”

Well, it certainly didn’t ‘tarnish’ IBM’s reputation in the eyes of the Abbott Government, because it f you note the date on the ABS contract for the Census – October 2014 – that was quite some time after IBM had already screwed the pooch in Queensland, and after it became involved in a multi-million lawsuit with the state government to avoid having to compensate taxpayers for its monumental screw up.

https://newmatilda.com/2016/08/10/c...-its-business-as-usual-under-a-turnbull-govt/


----------



## bellenuit (11 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> How about allowing residents to download the questions in the months prior to the 9th.  The questions can be filled out without even being online.  On the 9th, you encrypt then zip the file, then send it via an email.   Have thousands of different email addresses to choose from, each linked to the ABS.  Any thoughts?




Yes, that is something I thought would be a better alternative. It could also offer an option to print the census form  and have it mailed if there were issues like we had a few days ago.

One thing though. When eTax was used to submit taxes, which at that time was a program you downloaded to your computer, there were a lot of complaints that as it ran on the end-users' computers there were a lot of incompatibility issues. For a few years it ran only on certain versions of Windows and it was only in the last few years that support was added for Macs. The suggestion was that rather than run it on the computer which introduced all the incompatibility issues, it would be better to have it accessible via a browser. This they have now done using MyGov. Although there are compatibility issues with browsers, there are far less of a problem than running directly on end users' computers. I suspect this may have been the thinking behind doing the census that way.


----------



## orr (11 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> IBM were the designers. I seem to recall they stuffed up some other system a few years ago from the Federal Government. Why do they keep going back?




There was a Technology firm in Britain circa mid 1990s, EDS from memory, used by the UK government for Civil and defence work. Over budget, never met a dead line... if they ever did get it working, under performance. All mercilessly  and mirthfully  pilloried in the Private Eye, and just kept getting more work.       

 I'm guessing, 'knew where the bodies were buried.....'

I believe Herod had these things worked out 2000 odd years ago and we've trusted these donkey's to run the country , half the Cabinet  I wouldn't trust to run a bath.

And Tisme; Can't imagine the The Signals Direction boy's 'accidentally misplacing' a USB stick or two with 'all' the data from the census, down the back of the couch just before the official delete date, can you?

Ahh those immortal word from the head of the NSA... 'get everything'


----------



## pixel (11 August 2016)

I.B.M. = *I*t's* B*est (done) *M*anually


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, found it.
> 
> You might remember IBM from such scandals as ‘We implemented a new solution to improve Queensland Health’s payroll system, and it was two years late, $1.18 billion over budget, and had more than 35,000 problems.’
> 
> ...




Not just QLD but other states as well. The LNP used it as election bait and then coddled up to same group of scoundrels once elected....... what could possibly turn someone's head I wonder?


----------



## Craton (11 August 2016)

Site must be up coz am in!


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2016)

orr said:


> And Tisme; Can't imagine the The Signals Direction boy's 'accidentally misplacing' a USB stick or two with 'all' the data from the census, down the back of the couch just before the official delete date, can you?
> 
> Ahh those immortal word from the head of the NSA... 'get everything'




Distributed denial of service (DDoS) probably overloaded our pipe to the CIA database. All that meta data being syphoned off to the ASIO boys too.


----------



## bellenuit (11 August 2016)

Having worked for companies that have provided computing services to governments, in my experience the main issues are the government specs and last minute changes made by bureaucrats that know little of the issues they introduce.

Once the specs are in place and the project quoted upon, little should change. But then halfway through the project, some overpaid incompetent bureaucrat insists on having his pet idea added and some fundamental features changed no matter what the consequences and despite warnings by the experts. This drives the price up and increases the risk of failure. Often at the end when potential problems that had been warned of by the supplier eventuate, the government bureaucrats heap all the blame on the services supplier, knowing they are usually under a confidentiality agreement so cannot defend themselves and in any case cannot risk antagonising the government if they want future contracts. It is usually when these issues go to court that these issues get to see the light of day.


----------



## Craton (11 August 2016)

...and I'm done.

@ bellenuit. Thanks for your insight.

FWIW. Digital attack maps:

Jul 9th: http://www.digitalattackmap.com/#anim=1&color=0&country=ALL&list=0&time=16990&view=map

Jul 19th: http://www.digitalattackmap.com/#anim=1&color=0&country=ALL&list=0&time=17000&view=map

Aug 9th: http://www.digitalattackmap.com/#anim=1&color=0&country=ALL&list=0&time=17021&view=map


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2016)

I still can't get past the Complete my Census front page.


----------



## bellenuit (11 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> I still can't get past the Complete my Census front page.




I'm done too. Easy as pie once it runs for you.


----------



## Craton (11 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> I still can't get past the Complete my Census front page.




Probably pointless but have you refreshed your browser Doc?

From the Census site:


> The Census website is now available
> 
> We apologise for the inconvenience and thank everyone for their patience.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (11 August 2016)

Governments can't do anything properly can they?  That's really the issue - their widespread and repeated incompetence.  

Whether it's a schools building program, the pink bats scandal, $1000 cash handouts to stimulate the economy, failed intelligance (WMD), ASIO being hacked and sensitive data stolen by the Chinese (what a joke!), budgets repeatedly blown up, and now the census, ...  Could go on and on.

They just suck.  Left/right/Green.  Politicians are just sucky, incompetent fwits.  And big business knows how to take them for a ride and ensure everything goes over budget.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Governments can't do anything properly can they?  That's really the issue - their widespread and repeated incompetence.
> 
> Whether it's a schools building program, the pink bats scandal, $1000 cash handouts to stimulate the economy, failed intelligance (WMD), ASIO being hacked and sensitive data stolen by the Chinese (what a joke!), budgets repeatedly blown up, and now the census, ...  Could go on and on.
> 
> They just suck.  Left/right/Green.  Politicians are just sucky, incompetent fwits.  And big business knows how to take them for a ride and ensure everything goes over budget.




Unfortunately quite correct. Which is why we have idiots like Trump and Hanson taking the populist position and conning people into thinking they could do a better job, when in fact their ignorance is so appalling that they would make a worse stuff up than the last lot

Should we just let public servants run the country ? At least the PS has some expertise in it which, if unadulterated by political pressures may actually make some correct decisions. 

It's the constant striving by politicians to differentiate themselves from "the other side" that causes most of these problems. I heard Morrison today trying to blame Labor for the census stuff up. What a sick pathetic joke the man is and most like him.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2016)

A piece this afternoon in the AFR,



> Information has begun to emerge about the confluence of events that led the ABS and IBM to take the site down on census night, which show IBM and ABS staff misinterpreted data and were spooked by fears of a damaging data breach following a fairly standard security threat known as a distributed denial of service (DDoS) attack.
> 
> The website problems were initially blamed on the DDoS attack, which would have made the site inaccessible to users by bombarding it with thousands of logins at once.
> 
> ...




http://www.afr.com/technology/ibm-under-fire-as-census-blame-game-starts-20160811-gqqkdu



Craton said:


> Probably pointless but have you refreshed your browser Doc?



I'm on a different PC now, same router/landline internet.

The following page is the one I can't get past. 

https://stream10.census.abs.gov.au/eCensusWeb/welcome.jsp#top2

When I click on Complete my Census, it opens up the same page on a new web browser page. Clicking on the same link on that page just refreshes that page.

If worst comes to the worst, I'll try from a different internet account.


----------



## Boggo (11 August 2016)

I wonder if they have a $705,000 per annum exec approving a taxpayer funded $10m contract to supply the computing system for this !

They may as well try again I guess, after all it is just (someone else's) money 

http://www.petcensus.com.au/


----------



## Logique (11 August 2016)

One of the news networks said tonight, that some of the the paper envelopes are being returned to the senders, as Australia Post misread the bar codes.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Politicians are just sucky, incompetent fwits.  And big business knows how to take them for a ride and ensure everything goes over budget.



That's exactly how it works and it's why government getting involved with private business tends to not work out too well from the taxpayer's perspective. It's a great deal for business though.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Should we just let public servants run the country ? At least the PS has some expertise in it which, if unadulterated by political pressures may actually make some correct decisions.




Having worked in the (state) PS as such, my observation is that the ability and knowledge of public servants is greatly underrated by the media and general community. It's not bad at all. Presumably the Commonwealth PS would be similar?

The trouble is that at a certain level of seniority the political influence takes over and as with any workplace, it's those at the top who ultimately call the shots. That's where the truly dumb things are forced in (and "forced" tends to be the correct term there - they know full well it will cost more and won't work as well but it's forced in regardless for political reasons).

I've seen some truly first class work done in the PS. I've also seen it all dumped in favour of paying someone external serious $ for a greatly inferior result. $5K one-off to do it "in house" with all costs accounted for (even including overheads on staff) replaced with $15K, twice, to outsource it and former colleagues tell me that to this day it has never worked. Politics is the reason, the PS workers would gladly have just done it themselves if they were allowed to.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Having worked in the (state) PS as such, my observation is that the ability and knowledge of public servants is greatly underrated by the media and general community. It's not bad at all. Presumably the Commonwealth PS would be similar?
> 
> The trouble is that at a certain level of seniority the political influence takes over and as with any workplace, it's those at the top who ultimately call the shots. That's where the truly dumb things are forced in (and "forced" tends to be the correct term there - they know full well it will cost more and won't work as well but it's forced in regardless for political reasons).
> 
> *I've seen some truly first class work done in the PS. I've also seen it all dumped in favour of paying someone external serious $ for a greatly inferior result. $5K one-off to do it "in house" with all costs accounted for (even including overheads on staff) replaced with $15K, twice, to outsource it and former colleagues tell me that to this day it has never worked. Politics is the reason, the PS workers would gladly have just done it themselves if they were allowed to. *




If you get outside sources to do something they have to spend half the time talking to the staff to find out what's actually needed, whereas as you say the staff can do it themselves at a fraction of the cost and time because they know what needs to be done.

I was in the same situation myself. I wrote a computer system that worked (at a cost of just my salary) then it was hived off to consultants to re-write at 5 times the cost, and I'm not sure if it's been implemented yet 5 years after I left.


----------



## banco (11 August 2016)

Why is the fact that the ABS seems to have mislead the public about what caused the meltdown not getting more attention? You have IT people saying it wasn't a DDOS and the system would have fallen over from legitimate traffic because it was built with insufficient capacity.


----------



## SmokeyGhost (12 August 2016)

Oh bloody dear.  Possibly the members of this particular group should be included in the "Also God's Children" category and and data they may provide relegated to the dustbin of outliers.



> *Census 2016: Many Australians confused Sensis with census*
> 
> While millions of Australians were unable to log on to the Australian Bureau of Statistics' Census website on Tuesday night, thousands of other users met with similar frustration after misspelling the name of the national survey.
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmith (12 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> I'm on a different PC now, same router/landline internet.
> 
> The following page is the one I can't get past.
> 
> ...



I wonder whether the following might be the issue,



> A geoblock, or system used to limit internet access based on a user's location, on the census website is also causing issues for some users, IT consultant Justin Warren said.
> 
> "[The site] pretty much all lives in one place behind a wall," he said.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-12/census-2016-site-up-and-running-in-australia/7722738

I'm however going through a land line router purchased through a major ISP and I'm not hiding behind a VPN.

I've since tried through a mobile phone account and was able to get to the login page to enter the 12-digit code. I didn't enter the code at that point but rather tried again through the router and then again through the mobile account with both attempts unsuccessful.

It would appear from the mobile experience above that a person only gets one attempt to access the census login from a specific internet enabled device so I'm back to square one.

I have one more option through another connection which I'll be trying later today. If That fails, I'll have to ring the number on the letter I got from the ABS and request a paper form.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2016)

> I have one more option through another connection which I'll be trying later today. If That fails, I'll have to ring the number on the letter I got from the ABS and request a paper form.




Good to see you are a good citizen and trying everything you can to get it done rather that telling the ABS to pi$$ off which I think a lot of people will do.


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2016)

banco said:


> Why is the fact that the ABS seems to have mislead the public about what caused the meltdown not getting more attention? You have IT people saying it wasn't a DDOS and the system would have fallen over from legitimate traffic because it was built with insufficient capacity.




Because nobody believed it anyway


----------



## pixel (12 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Good to see you are a good citizen and trying everything you can to get it done rather that telling the ABS to pi$$ off which I think a lot of people will do.




"When was that meant to be? The 9th??? Sorry, I can't remember."


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 August 2016)

:guitar:

Rock out to this.  Best ending to a movie.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2016)

banco said:


> Why is the fact that the ABS seems to have mislead the public about what caused the meltdown not getting more attention? You have IT people saying it wasn't a DDOS and the system would have fallen over from legitimate traffic because it was built with insufficient capacity.




You don't really know that for sure.
And anyway, we expected incompetency.
Clever country..pah!

They are building overpasses for train crossings in Victoria at present,  one crossing has a handicapped ramp only. You have to walk nearly a kilometre to cross over the track! No stairs!

I work with architects, there is now no such thing as a disabled access toilet, it is now a Unisex toilet (to portray it is suitable for non genders, what the????, still used for disabled). 

This country is starting to disappear up its own ****.


----------



## trainspotter (12 August 2016)

Filled mine in online in record time. Apparently I am a 90 year old ethnic woman in a wheelchair who requires 24/7  palliative care but still finds time to work 48 hours a week on my own meth lab.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> This country is starting to disappear up its own ****.




The underlying problem is that knowledge is increasingly not valued in Australia. Pick a subject, any subject, and it's increasingly the case that those who are experts are finding themselves a distant second to generalists. Start going into detail, pointing out the various issues and so on and you'll find yourself labelled as a prophet of doom. 

Then when it all goes wrong the generalists tend to be incredibly good at shifting the blame. The large numbers of ex-lawyers in politics likely explains that one (nothing against lawyers but by the very nature of the profession they're more interested in finding who's to blame than in actually fixing the problem).


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Filled mine in online in record time. Apparently I am a 90 year old ethnic woman in a wheelchair who requires 24/7  palliative care but still finds time to work 48 hours a week on my own meth lab.



I submitted only information I wanted to share with the statistics gatherers. I think that is what you mean


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> The underlying problem is that knowledge is increasingly not valued in Australia. Pick a subject, any subject, and it's increasingly the case that those who are experts are finding themselves a distant second to generalists. Start going into detail, pointing out the various issues and so on and you'll find yourself labelled as a prophet of doom.
> 
> Then when it all goes wrong the generalists tend to be incredibly good at shifting the blame. The large numbers of ex-lawyers in politics likely explains that one (nothing against lawyers but by the very nature of the profession they're more interested in finding who's to blame than in actually fixing the problem).




That makes a lot of sense.


----------



## trainspotter (12 August 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I submitted only information I wanted to share with the statistics gatherers. I think that is what you mean








100/100


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> 100/100



On top of that I think it is extremely rude (for someone/something that I don't know) to ask how much I earn, who I work for and their address.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (13 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> The underlying problem is that knowledge is increasingly not valued in Australia. Pick a subject, any subject, and it's increasingly the case that those who are experts are finding themselves a distant second to generalists. Start going into detail, pointing out the various issues and so on and you'll find yourself labelled as a prophet of doom.
> 
> Then when it all goes wrong the generalists tend to be incredibly good at shifting the blame. The large numbers of ex-lawyers in politics likely explains that one (nothing against lawyers but by the very nature of the profession they're more interested in finding who's to blame than in actually fixing the problem).




Amen to that.

To state that "something unexpected happened" - as with the census - is such a laugh.  They don't realize that such a statement is not an excuse.  Their job was to _consider the unexpected and allow for it_.  And they clearly didn't get half way close to doing this.

Anyone want a school hall built?  It comes with pink bats.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2016)

Census done. Thought they would ask better questions.


----------



## trainspotter (13 August 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> On top of that I think it is extremely rude (for someone/something that I don't know) to ask how much I earn, who I work for and their address.




So much for "generalisations" and "trends" in the census. Pretty darn specific when they ask WHO you work for and WHAT is their address and HOW MUCH do you earn dontchathink ????


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> So much for "generalisations" and "trends" in the census. Pretty darn specific when they ask WHO you work for and WHAT is their address and HOW MUCH do you earn dontchathink ????




Interesting that they haven't yet asked how many times have you been divorced, have you ever been charged with a criminal offence, how long have you been on social security... Would be very useful information for "planning" purposes. No doubt they will include those next time along with gaol time for not answering or providing false information.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (13 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> So much for "generalisations" and "trends" in the census. Pretty darn specific when they ask WHO you work for and WHAT is their address and HOW MUCH do you earn dontchathink ????




I didn't get asked whom I work for.  

Different census?


----------



## noco (13 August 2016)

A lot of hulla bulloo about nothing...You should all get over it....It is called innovation...There was bound to be some hiccups with a new idea...Same thing will happen first time you vote on line.

What should we do?...Go back to the 20th century where Census forms were hand delivered and then picked up from your door.....This is the 21st century.

1.2 million completed their census on line before August 9 without a hitch.......It was a shame more did not do the same instead of whinging.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2016)

noco said:


> A lot of hulla bulloo about nothing...You should all get over it....It is called innovation...There was bound to be some hiccups with a new idea...Same thing will happen first time you vote on line.
> 
> What should we do?...Go back to the 20th century where Census forms were hand delivered and then picked up from your door.....This is the 21st century.
> 
> 1.2 million completed their census on line before August 9 without a hitch.......It was a shame more did not do the same instead of whinging.




I'm sorry, have you been living on a different planet the last week ? 

People TRIED to do their census but the site was SHUT DOWN. It was a total cockup and I can't see how anyone except the politically rusted ons could defend the way it was handled.


----------



## drsmith (13 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> I have one more option through another connection which I'll be trying later today.



Success at last. 

As others have noted, once one gets to the online form to answer the questions, the process is relatively simple. 

As for some of the questions that have been the subject of public debate,

1) The name question asks for a Christian and surname. It does not ask for any middle names. 
2) The date of birth question offers the option of providing age as an alternative to dob. I provided my age.
3) Earning options are provided in ranges which IIRC is consistent with previous census. 

As a practical process, online is far better than filling out a paper form. It's obviously unfortunate that the online process failed on the night and then took as long at it did to get it up and running again.


----------



## noco (13 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sorry, have you been living on a different planet the last week ?
> 
> People TRIED to do their census but the site was SHUT DOWN. It was a total cockup and I can't see how anyone except the politically rusted ons could defend the way it was handled.




I had no trouble....Perhaps I was one of the 1.2 million smart ones...The dopey ones left it until the last minute when the system was all clogged up....


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> So much for "generalisations" and "trends" in the census. Pretty darn specific when they ask WHO you work for and WHAT is their address and HOW MUCH do you earn dontchathink ????




They seem obsessed with detail when it comes to income but it's the opposite with anything else.

Considering the housing aspect, I'd have thought at the very least someone would want to know what the main construction materials are and if there's solar panels on the roof. Etc. Seems not.

Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but I saw the questions asked as having more to do with checking for tax avoidance than anything else. Who do you work for, where, what do you get paid etc - sounds like it's being cross-referenced with the ATO and looking for anything that doesn't match.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 August 2016)

noco said:


> The dopey ones left it until the last minute when the system was all clogged up....




It was entirely foreseeable and reasonable to expect that most people would have come home from work, cooked dinner, then done the census. So there were always going to be a huge volume between 6 and 8pm, that's just basic commonsense that anyone with a background in utilities, communications / IT, traffic, public transport or anything else with a clear peak in demand due to the actions of the masses would have spotted in an instant.

It's just another symptom of the "knowledge is evil" approach that dominates in Australia these days. Blunder through and blame someone when it goes wrong seems to be the present mantra.


----------



## bellenuit (13 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but I saw the questions asked as having more to do with checking for tax avoidance than anything else. Who do you work for, where, what do you get paid etc - sounds like it's being cross-referenced with the ATO and looking for anything that doesn't match.




I'm not so cynical about it. Details about employer, modes of transport to get there etc. are useful in urban planning. Obviously the employer's street address might give the same thing, without needing the employer's name, but the additional detail could be of use in relation to bus stops, impact on workforce should a factory shut down etc.

With regards to the salary bands, I just use the information from my tax return. Were I moonlighting and not reporting some income earned, then I certainly wouldn't be putting in my census responses. It is far more serious to lie to the tax man than on the census so if one has already done the former, it makes sense to also lie on the latter. 

Even if they did correlate with other sources, what can they do about it. You signed the census saying you answered as truthfully as possible, but that doesn't mean you didn't make a mistake. And if they tried to prosecute following a correlation mismatch, then they are up **** creek trying to explain why they did that when it is illegal according to the ABS charter.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 August 2016)

> The information collected in the Census helps estimate Australia’s population and *this information is used to distribute government funds* and plan services for the community - housing, transport, education, industry, hospitals and the environment.




Yes obviously capital cities get the most funding while the regional centres make changes as industry and demand from population increase requires. If last census was successful then regional councils wouldn't be negotiating state or federal government funding for new infrastructure and existing infrastructure upgrades which change from year to year. This happens locally when council asks for state assistance with hospital upgrade and asks the local rate payers for extra at council rates time like now. Need is in constant flux and is provided for at a local level and not derived from a questionnaire.


----------



## trainspotter (14 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I didn't get asked whom I work for.
> 
> Different census?




Shhhhhhhhhhhhh ... not so loud they might hear you ?

Why would "census" need to know the EXACT address for the company you work for? So are they trying to tell me they will measure how far I live away from my place of work so they can "statistically" figure out that I drive a car to work or catch the bus? What if I take a different route every day? What if sometimes I ride my bike to work? 

Would it not have been better to ask "How far do you live away from your place of work?" and "What mode of transport do you use to get to your place of work?"


----------



## pixel (14 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Even if they did correlate with other sources, what can they do about it. You signed the census saying you answered as truthfully as possible, but that doesn't mean you didn't make a mistake. And if they tried to prosecute following a correlation mismatch, then they are up **** creek trying to explain why they did that when it is illegal according to the ABS charter.




They (the ABS) don't have to prosecute. They can leave it to other departments, e/g/ the ATO or even Fed Narcs, to give you a once-over with a tax audit or welfare fraud investigation. Plenty of opportunity to make your life miserable.

... and it creates employment opportunities for more lipopygian chair warmers, improving unemployment stats, which the Gov'mint will certainly brag about on its "We're the best economic managers" rap sheet.


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Shhhhhhhhhhhhh ... not so loud they might hear you ?
> 
> Why would "census" need to know the EXACT address for the company you work for? So are they trying to tell me they will measure how far I live away from my place of work so they can "statistically" figure out that I drive a car to work or catch the bus? What if I take a different route every day? What if sometimes I ride my bike to work?
> 
> Would it not have been better to ask "How far do you live away from your place of work?" and "What mode of transport do you use to get to your place of work?"




I suppose the postcode or street name are not that accurate. What about someone who works on the Albany Highway (between Perth and Albany). Asking how far is not that easy for many people and certainly is not going to convey where the person is going to. If they asked for the street name and number, then for 95% of the population that identifies where they work. I'm sure they did ask the mode of transport, as far as I remember.

I think again it comes back to lack of trust in the government. If you believe they have nefarious intents, then every question can be suspicious. They do have the information from other sources, so if you are worried about cross correlation revealing something you have been dishonest about, as I said before, why would you provide a different answer in the census?


----------



## Knobby22 (14 August 2016)

Such distrust of the Government shows the effect of US culture on our mindset.
 Honestly, really ?  is what I think to some of the paranoid comments in this thread.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Such distrust of the Government shows the effect of US culture on our mindset.
> Honestly, really ?  is what I think to some of the paranoid comments in this thread.




For me personally I'm not at all paranoid. It's more a case of wondering why they ask the questions they do and not others?

They want to know how many bedrooms in the house and whether it's owned outright, with a mortgage or rented. Fair enough. But with all the fuss about climate change these days and the growing importance of the digital economy (as two random examples) I'm wondering why they didn't also ask if there's solar panels on the roof and what sort of internet connection I have and what devices such as desktop PC's, laptops, tablets etc I have? If the area has NBN fibre to the home but people are choosing the slowest speed plans or not connecting at all then would government not want to know that? 

Likewise any relationship between income and these things, I'd think that would be useful information. Do people below a certain income generally not own computers? Are people who own outright more likely to install solar than people with a mortgage? Seems like useful info to me given all the fuss about both energy and the NBN in recent times.

They ask how I get to work, fair enough. But no questions as to the reasons why I choose that method. If someone lives right on a bus route but drives to work in the CBD then wouldn't it be useful to know why they do that and not catch the bus that stops 20m from where they live? If part of the reason for the census is things like town planning then surely someone would want to know why people aren't using public transport if it's available?

Etc. For me it's more a curiosity as to what they didn't ask and wondering why than any concern about what they did ask.

For the things they do ask I question the relevance. Breakdown of incomes would already be available information in a broad sense, government collects tax after all and presumably can get some statistics out of that. Likewise for things like road planning, well there's people known as traffic engineers employed by state and local government who look at that in a broad sense, so any additional information from the census would really need to answer the "why?" question about travel rather than simply counting cars. 

It just seemed to me that they were really only interested in money and things relating to it. Do I own the house I live in? How much do I earn? How do I earn it? Where do I work? Etc. Seemed to be a big focus on money but not much about other things.


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me personally I'm not at all paranoid. It's more a case of wondering why they ask the questions they do and not others?
> 
> They want to know how many bedrooms in the house and whether it's owned outright, with a mortgage or rented. Fair enough. But with all the fuss about climate change these days and the growing importance of the digital economy (as two random examples) I'm wondering why they didn't also ask if there's solar panels on the roof and what sort of internet connection I have and what devices such as desktop PC's, laptops, tablets etc I have? If the area has NBN fibre to the home but people are choosing the slowest speed plans or not connecting at all then would government not want to know that?
> 
> ...




Fair comment. For all the trouble they go to, they sure ask for very little practical information. I think if they made it truly anonymous people would accept being asked more detailed information, particularly if they explained what it would be used for.


----------



## qldfrog (15 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Fair comment. For all the trouble they go to, they sure ask for very little practical information. I think if they made it truly anonymous people would accept being asked more detailed information, particularly if they explained what it would be used for.



they do not even ask the number of bedroom in the house
I would have thought that nb of people living in a house vs nb of bedroom was important but no.....Just an ATO cross check exercise;
and would any illegal migrant be included ?

A joke and a debacle and we are still sold the falacy the system crashed as a result of a Dos attack whereas it was just pure incompetence, who needed DOS with a system unable to take the expected load which could be forecast from a back of the envelop calculation...let's blame the Chineses...oops no can not do that anymore, so let's blame the libertarians..50 years ago, we would have blamed the communists


----------



## McLovin (15 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me personally I'm not at all paranoid. It's more a case of wondering why they ask the questions they do and not others?
> 
> They want to know how many bedrooms in the house and whether it's owned outright, with a mortgage or rented. Fair enough. But with all the fuss about climate change these days and the growing importance of the digital economy (as two random examples) I'm wondering why they didn't also ask if there's solar panels on the roof and what sort of internet connection I have and what devices such as desktop PC's, laptops, tablets etc I have? If the area has NBN fibre to the home but people are choosing the slowest speed plans or not connecting at all then would government not want to know that?
> 
> ...




The overwhelming purpose of a census is to provide a headcount for electoral boundaries. The questions will be left deliberately broad so as not to collect wads of pointless information and because the census would become incredibly long. The reason someone in Dubbo drives 30km to work is because there is no other way to get to work. The reason someone in inner Sydney uses the bus to get to work instead of cycling...well that's incredibly open ended (lack of bike lanes, feeling unsafe on roads, don't know how to ride a bike, too lazy, lack of shower facilities at office, lack of secure storage at office...) and best answered by surveying the local population about transport rather than the whole country. I think they're probably deliberately overstating the use of the census in things like town planning in order to have a high completion rate. Town planning will resonate a lot better with people than electoral boundaries.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Such distrust of the Government shows the effect of US culture on our mindset.



 Privacy is valuable and rightly defended.


----------



## qldfrog (16 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> they do not even ask the number of bedroom in the house
> I would have thought that nb of people living in a house vs nb of bedroom was important but no.....Just an ATO cross check exercise;
> and would any illegal migrant be included ?
> 
> A joke and a debacle and we are still sold the falacy the system crashed as a result of a Dos attack whereas it was just pure incompetence, who needed DOS with a system unable to take the expected load which could be forecast from a back of the envelop calculation...let's blame the Chineses...oops no can not do that anymore, so let's blame the libertarians..50 years ago, we would have blamed the communists



I wanted to delete the part above  about bedrooms after remembering they actually did, not that precise but they did
My apologies, rest of rant of angry white heteresexual white male remains


----------



## trainspotter (16 August 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me personally I'm not at all paranoid. It's more a case of wondering why they ask the questions they do and not others?
> 
> It just seemed to me that they were really only interested in money and things relating to it. Do I own the house I live in? How much do I earn? How do I earn it? Where do I work? Etc. Seemed to be a big focus on money but not much about other things.




Yes some of the questions were very vague indeed whilst others had a microscope shoved up your rectum. Not part of the tin foil hat brigade but I will bet you London to a brick that next year the ATO and Centrelink will be getting pretty savage on a few folks out there come tax time.


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2016)

This is about the online services not by stats but another government service provider, Medicare.

Having just made a claim in relation to a pathology service through the Medicare Express Plus app on a tablet, the process after going through the initial setup isn't all that bad. 

My only criticism is trying to claim proof of service by having to photograph the relevant invoice is to me a clunky way to establish proof of service but the app itself does a good job of minimising the pain from this element of the process. 

In my instance, I couldn't photograph the whole invoice to get a clear picture so I photographed the most critical part in terms of service provider and charged items. Having submitted that the app then asked for those elements in any case. 

I'll see in the next few days how the claim goes. The login too is much simpler than for MyGov requiring only a 4-digit pin once set up. The claim receipt I've got for the above however is 23 numbers long.


----------



## CanOz (18 August 2016)

Our census is done....painless.....wtf is the problem ya pack of whinging dolts!


----------



## bellenuit (18 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> This is about the online services not by stats but another government service provider, Medicare.
> 
> Having just made a claim in relation to a pathology service through the Medicare Express Plus app on a tablet, the process after going through the initial setup isn't all that bad.
> 
> ...




I used that app last week and got my refund through in a day or too. I was a bit annoyed being forced to use the mobile app (and to first download it) to make the claim as I already have access to Medicare through the MyGov site and it would have been easier for me to do it from there (scanning the invoice to my Mac rather than photographing it from my iPhone). When I tried to do it on my Mac, it said I could only use the mobile app to make the claim.

The other complaint (minor) is that the app can only be loaded on one mobile device. You can't have it on both your iPhone and iPad. I don't know why there is that restriction. I would prefer to be able to claim from whichever device is at hand at the time; phone, tablet or desktop.

These are just minor irritations and it is good to be able to do these things without having to go to the local Medicare office as one had to do in the past. There is less and less nowadays that requires one's physical presence at a brick and mortar store. I could do my groceries online, but then I would never leave the house.


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2016)

Being unable to claim initially from PC using MyGov when entering the relevant code was my frustration too. That was something I was hoping thay'd rectify but after 6 months, I reluctantly concluded it was time to yield.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> Being unable to claim initially from PC using MyGov when entering the relevant code was my frustration too. That was something I was hoping thay'd rectify but after 6 months, I reluctantly concluded it was time to yield.




I am really annoyed about this app. The tax system worked great last year. Why should I have to use an app on my phone instead of the desktop. Ridiculous.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> I am really annoyed about this app. The tax system worked great last year. Why should I have to use an app on my phone instead of the desktop. Ridiculous.




Probably because PC's are sooooo last century to the tech nerds that write apps.


----------



## drsmith (22 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> This is about the online services not by stats but another government service provider, Medicare.
> 
> Having just made a claim in relation to a pathology service through the Medicare Express Plus app on a tablet, the process after going through the initial setup isn't all that bad.
> 
> ...



I got a call from Medicare today regarding the above.

Not all the information on the photo was readable but it was the best I could do with the tablet. Perhaps one needs a device with a 12mp camera to get an image of sufficient quality. 

I'm off to a Medicare office later this week to get it sorted. Failing that, I can fill out a form and post it if by that stage I can still be bothered.


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> Not all the information on the photo was readable but it was the best I could do with the tablet. Perhaps one needs a device with a 12mp camera to get an image of sufficient quality.



I get automatic claim crediting from one practice and card swipe crediting from another. Paper claims are/are going to be a thing of the past.


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## drsmith (25 August 2016)

Over 6.5m of 9m households have completed the census according to the ABS and they are now going so set out the foot patrol to encourage the rest.



> Nearly 38,000 census officers will hit the streets over the next week as the Bureau of Statistics tries to convince people to complete the national survey.




http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/08/25/census-officers-out-visit-recalcitrants


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## qldfrog (27 August 2016)

a nice example of how the gov preserves your privacy:http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/australias-corporate-data-gets-closer-to-private-hands-20160825-gr0zwh.html
so as for trusting the ABS....


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 September 2016)

Now the ATO site is down. Found that out because I was going to do my taxes today. Can log into the My Gov site but that's it. Damn..... 

Good side - I'll have to pay tax so in no hurry.

Bad side - today was a convenient time to do it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 September 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Now the ATO site is down. Found that out because I was going to do my taxes today.




I don't usually get annoyed about technical things failing but this is a bit ridiculous.

They insist that a tax return be done, want people to do it online and it has to be done by the end of October. So I set aside time to do it and then these clowns take the entire website down for more than a day for "planned maintenance". I'm guessing they didn't think of backup systems?

NBN, Census and now tax. I'm spotting a pattern here....

It must be part of the grand plan for Australia's economy. Create jobs in the Post Office and printing industries by making sure that anything online doesn't work. Did the Liberals do a deal with the posties' union or something?  

Rant over.


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## Knobby22 (4 September 2016)

I know. I have always done my taxes directly but they have made it too painful this year so I have gone through an accountant. Pathetic.


----------



## Tisme (5 September 2016)

Be careful that you actually connect to the tax office site as opposed to middle man accountancy firms using things like "ETax.xxx".


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## drsmith (31 October 2016)

Anyone today trying to lodge their tax return through myGov ?

I've got that sinking feeling the Census bug has struck.

EDIT: After several minutes, the myGov login page has finally loaded.


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## drsmith (31 October 2016)

Not much of a glimmer of hope I'm afraid. I couldn't get beyond the log in page. I'll try again later but as a backup, I've organised a short extension to submit through the ATO.


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## qldfrog (31 October 2016)

drsmith said:


> Not much of a glimmer of hope I'm afraid. I couldn't get beyond the log in page. I'll try again later but as a backup, I've organised a short extension to submit through the ATO.



in my first trial, midweek 10Am, the site was down for maintenance;
we got from a best of breed etax downloadable software (up to last year) to the online crap we have now requiring endless login, password etc, no surprise productivity is falling in Oz with progress like that.....


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## drsmith (31 October 2016)

qldfrog said:


> in my first trial, midweek 10Am, the site was down for maintenance;
> we got from a best of breed etax downloadable software (up to last year) to the online crap we have now requiring endless login, password etc, no surprise productivity is falling in Oz with progress like that.....



I gave it one more go just after my above post and was successful logging on, preparation and submitting. 

The detail that one gets now before (and after) submitting is much leaner than the information that could be printed just prior to submitting with eTax. An estimate of refund was all I got so there was no way to check it against all the components that go into the calculation. Hopefully the Notice of Assessment will be more revealing in this regard.


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## qldfrog (31 October 2016)

drsmith said:


> I gave it one more go just after my above post and was successful logging on, preparation and submitting.
> 
> The detail that one gets now before (and after) submitting is much leaner than the information that could be printed just prior to submitting with eTax. An estimate of refund was all I got so there was no way to check it against all the components that go into the calculation. Hopefully the Notice of Assessment will be more revealing in this regard.




Indeed more and less a black box: enter figures et voila, and far less knowledge on what was giving you benefits or penalties; the less informed the masses, the easier it gets to harvest/screw them..
But sometimes masses rebel: a la Trump/Brexit....


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## pixel (23 January 2017)

It's getting worse.
No need to start a new thread, even though my latest gripe is not Census-related, but concerns the latest stuff-up by the ATO, just like the more recent posts above.

Running a small business, I'm obliged to submit my quarterly BAS (Business Activity Statement, for the uninitiated.) That can only be done through the Business Portal with some terribly secure piece of software, called the "Auskey". So you direct your browser to this portal website, click on Login, find your company details, and type in the password. Used to work like a charm. The numbers come pre-crunched out of my accounting software, so all it takes is transfer some figures into G1 to G14, calculate, transfer, submit.

Except in early January, when the Login refused to show me my Auskey. And I'm definitely NOT mixing company biz with myGov, especially as that is still in Beta test.
The Help links from the failing Login page are utterly hopeless: They send you round and round in circles, but fail to tell you the simple truth: *Logging in with the Auskey is no longer working with the Firefox browser!*
While that is mentioned in one of the help pages, the advice there says you need to download and install an Auskey extension/ plugin. Problem: When I tried that, Firefox crashed because the extension looked for the Auskey data in the wrong place.

Long story short: Called ATO helpline, who checked that the Auskey was still in its proper place, but that's all they would do. For a fix, I had to call another number - outsourced to Manila, of course. Nice girl, and I don't blame her at all for the cute accent that had me guess most of the time as to the nature of her question, let alone the instructions. After half an hour (including the waiting time during which I was repeatedly told to search for the right answer at ATO's help pages) I had found out that the only way to login was by using the Google Chrome browser, make sure the Auskey plugin is enabled in that one, and "Robert is one of your parents' siblings."

Does anyone know to which Government Department I should send the invoice for a total of 7 hours wasted? Their IT Eggspurts can't maintain software functionality and don't have a clue how to add a simple one-liner to the first error page, stating
*"Sorry, we couldn't get our program to run in Firefox. Please download and install Google Chrome with xxx extension. That'll work."*


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## moXJO (23 January 2017)

pixel said:


> *"Sorry, we couldn't get our program to run in Firefox. Please download and install Google Chrome with xxx extension. That'll work."*




I had the same problem some time ago. Funny enough - I don't think it worked on google chrome before and I had to use a different browser.

ATO has all the money in the world and this terrible piece of programming is the best they could come up with.


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## bellenuit (23 January 2017)

pixel said:


> And I'm definitely NOT mixing company biz with myGov, especially as that is still in Beta test.




I had the same problem last year running on Safari and I bit the bullet and started using my MyGov login. It has worked like a charm since (though I do not do BAS, just PAYG and Company Tax).

Although it might appear that you are mixing company and personal, I don't think it is as nefarious as it might appear. If I remember correctly (when I did once have AUSKEY successfully working), didn't you need to provide the personal tax file number of the designated person that could use AUSKEY as a means of identifying him/her (at least in the set up stage)? So they already have that link between the company and you (assuming you are the designated person). All MyGov does is allow the designated person to now access the Government Business Portal using the MyGov login associated with the designated person's tax file number instead of having to use AusKey). I don't think they know anything more than they knew before.

This may be one of those times when it is better to go with the flow rather than fight them.


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## pixel (24 January 2017)

bellenuit said:


> This may be one of those times when it is better to go with the flow rather than fight them.



Thanks Belle,
no, I don;t want to fight them. And it's not about my TFN either - of course they know. I doubt though whether an individual can use myGov for Business reporting. It may come one day, but right now, the myGov option on the BAS login is clearly marked as "Beta", implying that may not be working either.


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## bellenuit (24 January 2017)

pixel said:


> Thanks Belle,
> no, I don;t want to fight them. And it's not about my TFN either - of course they know. I doubt though whether an individual can use myGov for Business reporting. It may come one day, but right now, the myGov option on the BAS login is clearly marked as "Beta", implying that may not be working either.




I'm not sure I understand what you mean by business reporting. I actually have a company (Pty Ltd) and I use my personal MyGov login to get to the business portal where I can pay the company PAYG and TAX and see the balances in the respective accounts. It says Beta for me too, but it works for the tasks I perform. I think, but I am not sure, that once you are in, everything is identical. It's just how you get in that is different; AUSKEY or MyGov login. It is not something new within the MyGov personal tax area. You still go to bp.gov.ato.au, but when you try to log in, it will offer you the choice of using your MyGov credentials. (Actually, it is no longer a choice for me. The only method offered is MyGov, but that may be because I have no AusKey set up)


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