# What does Money Mean to You?



## Julia (21 January 2006)

Following some of the comments on a previous thread regarding desirability of high yield stocks as opposed to those held for growth, I thought it would be interesting to look at the broader question of why we are all investing and/or trading.

Obvious answer is to make money.  

But then, as I thought about how some people - probably mostly those in retirement - prefer to have high yield stocks in order to know there is sufficient income to fund everyday expenses, and others  in  pursuit of high growth stocks, care little for the attached dividends and franking credits, I wondered what actually having the money means to us as individuals.

e.g.  is it to ensure we have a sense of security, perhaps even something as basic as knowing we will never have to rely on the meagre government pension?

is it a sense of pride in having achieved financial security?

Is it simply so that we have the freedom to do whatever we want - buy a new car when we feel like it - travel business class etc?

Is it so we can help others, either in public philanthropy, or our own families and friends when they need it?

Or is it possibly sometimes just the love of money for its own sake?
(I have known people like this - the pleasure comes from just being able to see that bottom line increase - and usually they are very frugal in their personal spending).

And for those who are still striving for that magic amount, how do you think your life will change when you achieve it?  How will you feel different?

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (22 January 2006)

It's primarily about security.

I can't ever imagine myself choosing business class travel or staying in expensive hotels. Likewise the expensive cars and designer clothes. It's just not me.

What I would like however is security. Knowing that loss of employment doesn't mean the end of the world. Knowing that if I need something then I can buy it. Knowing that if I want to do something then I can do it. But if I'm travelling then it will be economy class whether I'm worth 10K or 10 billion.

I'd also like to be in a position to donate substantial sums to worthwhile causes. Helping the disadvantaged, particularly the disabled and homeless, comes immediately to mind. Likewise there's a serious need to promote and commercialise renewable energy technologies and I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is on that one whether I made a profit from it or not.

I do have a specific target which, if reached through profitable trading or investment, I will immediately donate a sum to charity. The sum is not huge but it will certainly be donated if the profits are made. I'll set a new target linked to a bigger donation once that's done.

As for the money itself, you can't take it with you so I'd like to do some good with it whilst I'm alive. 

That said, if I became massively wealthy ($ billions) then you'll likely find me doing something big which everyone hears about. Something with a lasting impact which will still be there 100 years later. Got a few ideas...


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## michael_selway (22 January 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Following some of the comments on a previous thread regarding desirability of high yield stocks as opposed to those held for growth, I thought it would be interesting to look at the broader question of why we are all investing and/or trading.
> 
> Obvious answer is to make money.
> 
> ...




Hi Since im young i honestly dont care too much about 10% dividend or 5% interest, im looking for doubling and trippling capital gains etc

i dont have much atm maybe 50000 worth if i sell everything i have and own atm. Also Income from working thats it. 

So how do i be come a multi millionaire?


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## kerosam (22 January 2006)

As for me, money is my path to financial independence..... financial independence for me and my loved ones. In addition, it gives security so much so that I won't be at the mercy of the boss anymore. But that is not to say I don't have to work. It gives me a better peace of mind, that's all.

and once in a while go on a shopping spree.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (22 January 2006)

michael_selway said:
			
		

> Hi Since im young i honestly dont care too much about 10% dividend or 5% interest, im looking for doubling and trippling capital gains etc
> 
> i dont have much atm maybe 50000 worth if i sell everything i have and own atm. Also Income from working thats it.
> 
> So how do i be come a multi millionaire?




In answer to your question, change your mindset.

Income from working? Or income from your money working?

Keep working, but use it to leverage yourself to the next level. Trade with other people`s money? Sounds good to me - only if one knows what one is doing, though.

There are endless opportunities for becoming rich in this day and age that are not explored.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (22 January 2006)

Julia,

Another philosophical thread of yours! Thanks!

Money to me is freedom!
Freedom to do what I can afford to do. If income exceeds my expenses then I`m happy. 

I value first class travel - no more **** breath next to or behind me. Maybe I can actually have a sleep on long flights. (I don`t do it regularly, but have done it and will from now on) 
I value having my castle in the future.
I value being able to give to people who need or who deserve.(our medical system is third world - really it is terrible in the country) But why should I do what my taxes should be doing? Governments have stuffed up big time and we are all paying while they get their cushy pensions and world travel.

If any one hates money it means they don`t have any.

Snake


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## yogi-in-oz (22 January 2006)

21012006

Hi Julia,

A good thread you have going here for some weekend contemplation.

Started this reply and lost it as ASF decided to eliminate it
during its compilation, for no apparent reason ..... lol 

 ..... so, let's try again.

------

It seems you may have already been researching these 
personal issues about trading or dealing with others in a 
similar vein ..... yes???

Using your own post as a guide in quotes, though not in the 
same order, here's some additional thoughts to keep the 
thread alive.

"Is it simply so that we have the freedom to do whatever we 
want - buy a new car when we feel like it - travel business 
class etc?"

"... is it a sense of pride in having achieved financial security?"

These two motivating factors, may well be tarred to the same
brush, even though they may appear to be different, at 
various stages in our lives.

In the primary years of our lives, when our bodies will cope 
with the use and abuse of honest and hard work, we may well
feel that we deserve the rewards of the high life .....

.... party on, spend-it-while-you've-got-it, you-only-live-once  
and you-can't-take-it-with-you ..... you have earned your 
money and you are prepared to legitimately enchange it fairly,
for any goods and service, that you may choose .... that's 
great, you have made a FAIR EXCHANGE and your money
goes around the world to be used over and over again, by 
others ..... everybody is happy.

-------

"... is it to ensure we have a sense of security, perhaps even 
something as basic as knowing we will never have to rely on 
the meagre government pension?"

Unfortunately,  this can be a real motivator, due to 
occupational pressures in our society today.


For example, the ogre of age discrimination is alive and well,
forcing some middle-aged people into feeling that they MUST
trade the markets to maintain a reasonable lifestyle.

Such pressure, starts early in our working lives, as 
governments legislate, that we must contribute to 
(underperforming) superannuation funds.

..... NOT EVERYBODY is meant to be trading in the markets ... !~!

Sitting in front of a computer all day may pay the bills, but is
it really EASY living and is it really FUN ..... ??? 

=====

This post was lifted from another forum and it shows how
frustrating trading can be for some people, without the
natural skills set to deal with trading issues:

"Just reached my breaking point.

Sick of seeing my shares struggle for weeks to get up to a decent level and then in one day they are back to where they started. In the same instance no-name companies just keep going up and up.

Thought I had some pretty good shareholdings with G.., S.., F.. , M.., C.. but sadly mistaken.

Have never had any luck with shares - never got onto that runaway success. Always seem to buy in at the top and have to sell at the bottom.

Decided to sell today, get all my money out and enjoy life rather than checking the prices everyday and getting more and more frustrated.

C.

=====

Many people are lucky enough to be able to use their natural
skills in rewarding careers, throughout their working lives .... 
they find it EASY and FUN, because they have found where 
and how, they can use their natural, God-given abilities, early
in life.

Others may have natural skills, that were never tapped in 
their first trade or occupation, yet they remain available to 
those, who wish to capitalize on them, in later life.

Just as many were destined to be carpenters, mechanics, 
electricians, IT experts in their primary occupations, then
later in life, we also have further natural skills to enjoy 
another trade or occupation, often completely didconnected 
from the earlier job.

By tapping these natural resources, many people find 
themselves in ENJOYABLE  secondary careers, because they 
find it EASY and FUN to utilize their natural abilities. 

Sometimes, they find themselves servicing niche markets, 
in their own business with the POTENTIAL to earn much more
than trading in the markets.

=====

"Is it so we can help others, either in public philanthropy, or 
our own families and friends when they need it?"

Now, you will remember our "high-flyer" friend above, who 
was happy to spend up big to reward himself for a job well 
done. It turned out well, he made a fair exchange  ..... his 
money for the desired goods and services and everybody was 
happy ..... yes???

Well, here's a tip ...... philanthropists are NOT HAPPY with 
just a FAIR EXCHANGE ..... in fact, the more they contribute 
to the welfare of others, then the more MULTIPLE revenues
will come back to them, with much better returns, than the 
"fair exchange high flyer." 

"Or is it possibly sometimes just the love of money for its 
own sake? (I have known people like this - the pleasure 
comes from just being able to see that bottom line increase - 
and usually they are very frugal in their personal spending)."

"And for those who are still striving for that magic amount, 
how do you think your life will change when you achieve it? 
How will you feel different?"

Ironically enough, the sooner that these people start down 
the philanthropic road, the sooner that they will achieve 
their own financial goals.

Promising God, yourself and others that you will give away 
substantial amounts, after you have made millions IS NOT 
how philanthropy works.

It does not matter, how much money you have, NOW is the 
time to start being generous with it, if you want to reap the 
incoming rewards .....

..... and our generosity should not only be measured in dollar 
amounts.


Freely-given time, effort and our natural skills also give us 
great personal satisfaction, as well as a BIGGER credit to our 
incoming account, whether it be in the form of revenue or 
services by others.

-----

So, whatever your motivation or career, if you want to make 
some good investments, start being generous with your 
money and other resources and you will be rewarded, 
HANDSOMELY.

There must be some validity behind this theory, otherwise all 
the rich people would just hoard their money, just like the 
poor people !~!

Sure, charity may begin with your own family, but the best 
part about this philanthropy gig is this ..... you can get 
started, at anytime in your life .... young, old, rich or poor, 
everybody has the natural ability to help others and benefit 
from the multiple rewards, that stem from such generosity.


have a great wekend all

    yogi


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## brisvegas (22 January 2006)

simply put "Money to me  means Freedom" 

freedom of choice basically . Do i have to go to work today , Do i have to live here , Do i have to buy no name brands etc etc .     



.............. Pete


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## clowboy (22 January 2006)

Money is such an attitude thing.

The common theme in this thread seems to be freedom but yet if we were to all put a figure on "freedom" I bet everyone's figure would be different.

Once heard a story......


There was a fisherman living in a small village on the coast of ( insert some tropical place that you dream about here).  He lived with his family, he had a son, daughter and his wife.  Every day he went fishing from 7-12 with his best friends in the town (man did he love fishing).  He would return home have lunch with his wife fillet the fish, clean the boat and take the fillets to market for selling.  He would then come home to greet the kids from school and talk about there day.  They would spend the rest of the day at the beach with the night finished off with a BBQ with nieghbours and friends.

His fishing business was very succsusful.  He was not a wealthy man but he had everything he wanted and his family never went without.

One day a rich American business man was visting this small fishing town and noticed the fisherman's catch as he return from his fishing trip.  "that's an awful lot of fish for such a short time" he said.  "was it a good day today" he asked.  "no said the fisherman, just a normal day".

The business man got excited and started explaining to the fisherman that he wanted him to go into business with him.

He told him that they would grow the business, he would buy more boats and they could hire the villagers to help with the catch.  They would export the fish all over the world.  The village would boom the fisherman would become very rich as would many of the villagers.

Then what said the fisherman???


Well then you can retire in some small coastal town and do the things you really like to do said the business man.


Like fish and enjoy good company said the fisherman.

Exactly said the businessman, exactly.


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## johnno261 (22 January 2006)

I havent read any other posts regarding this thread, but money to me means "Freedom". To be able to quit work tomorrow and still live comfortably for some time, to be able to go down to JB and purchase a top notch PLASMA/LCD, to be able to travel anywhere in the world every year!!
The most rewarding is to be able to help others!!!!


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## Stan 101 (22 January 2006)

Hi Julia, I've thought about it for a short time and the most correct answer for me is that it gives me choices.


cheers,


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## GreatPig (22 January 2006)

I'm with those who say financial freedom & independence and security for the future, although even with sufficient money that's not guaranteed if the world degenerates to the point that money becomes worthless.

Plus I think it's a challenge. Given that something like 95% of traders supposedly lose money, being able to consistently make it will be an achievement.

Regarding capital growth vs income, my investment portfolio is primarily focused on capital growth and my trading business on income (primarily through gains though). While there's a bull market, I see capital growth as a better prospect than dividend yield.

Ultimately, if I want to survive on my investments alone, I'll need income to live off and capital gain to keep my capital base ahead of inflation. That's what I'm aiming for overall.

Cheers,
GP


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## grumpee boi (22 January 2006)

I think that on the whole money does mean freedom to most people.  As was said before it means freedom of choice to me.  The choices I would like to make are to be able to do all the things that I really enjoy and then some.  First and foremost would be to spend time with my two girls and still have time for my wife and I by ourselves.  I am fortunate in that I work from home so I do probably spend much more time with my family than most.  I am also lucky to have a frugal wife so our pleasures come by very cheaply so we don't actually need a lot of money to be rich.

Adam


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## Jay-684 (22 January 2006)

The one thing I never want to experience in life is to not be able to provide for myself and my family (I'm 21, so dont have a family just yet! )

So first and foremost money to me is the ability to provide the basics in life, so basically security.

I would also like to be financially independent sometime in the next 30 years, so before I'm 50. I would like to choose when I work and what I do, rather than working tirelessly for someone else to only make their wallets fatter.

A question was asked between my friends the other day of "How much money would you want to feel comfortable you'd never have to work again?"

I think $2 million in assets is probably where I'd begin to feel comfortable.


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## Julia (22 January 2006)

Thank you to everyone who has responded to my question with such thoughtful replies.

Time for me to make my own contribution:

I may well be the only person on this forum who has ever attempted to sustain life on a government benefit.  A number of years ago, after leaving a marriage which had become violent, and being grateful to still be alive, I had no home, no money and no job.  My career had been tied in with my husband's medical practice and therefore ceased to exist.  My contributions to the marital home were inaccessible at that stage, as were the combined finances.  I had no choice but to access a government benefit until I had retrained sufficiently to change careers and begin to build up some assets again.  This was one of the most humbling times of my life.  The experience is why these days (when I can easily live off the income my capital generates) I willingly volunteer my time to assist people who are in that invidious position of trying to make ends meet on a government benefit.

So in answer to my own original question:  What money means to me is obviously a sense of security, as many have said, and having choices as pointed out by Stan 101.

When I go shopping or am thinking about what to buy when having friends in for a meal, I can so well recall how awful it was to go to the supermarket and have to walk away from what I would simply like to eat.  Perhaps this sounds a little overstated?  It is not.  I saw a middle aged bloke last week who on the dole gets just over $400 per fortnight.  His rent is $300 per fortnight.
That leaves $50 per week for food, car expenses, medical expenses and anything else.  Clearly it is just not possible.

I was fortunate in being able to access further study and thus qualify myself for a new career in my 30's and thus gradually build up funds for my own home and then investment property and then shares.  Many people are precluded from this by their various disadvantaged circumstances.

So, all up, I guess I would say having enough money means to me never forgetting what it was like to be temporarily poor and having compassion for  many people who find themselves in that position without the capacity to change anything.

On a lighter note, I have to recognise with a sense of irony, that when I was struggling I used to think "when I have plenty of money I will travel often (business or first class, of course) and stay in the best hotels.  Now that I can afford to do that, I just enjoy staying home more than anything!!!
Clowboy has alluded to this philosophy in his lovely story about the fisherman.
This could open up a whole new thread on perceptions/desires, fulfillment.

Julia


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## clowboy (23 January 2006)

Thats the thing about money,

those that have it can choose to go without it for a while but those without it can't choose to have it for a while.


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

"yield" doesnt mean just dividends. It can include franking credits, options, tax deductions, interest etc.

Over the years Ive seen some instalment warrants yielding over 20%. Ive seen some that offered a risk-free overnight profit of 43%.

If you were suddenly incapacitated tomorrow, how "rich" would you really be? If you have an investment portfolio that is neutral or negative cashflow, how will you survive?

Lets say you own 8 investment properties, all cashflow negative. You have however made a $1m capital gain on them (so you spend money like a millionaire). The net cashflow every week is -$200. You also have mortgage payments (or rent) of $300 wk. Then there is living expenses of $200 wk. 

You NEED $700 a week to survive. What will you do? No problem you say. Sell a property.

1. OK, so we sell a property for $300k. It was valued @ $350k but you needed a quick sale. Because the property was negatively geared, you have been claiming depreciation all these years and the written down value is actually $100k. That means you have a paper profit of $200k......which you have to pay tax on. You already made $80k this year, so you are in the top tax bracket. Even with your 50% discount, you owe $48,500 in tax. The bank takes their $100k owing. Out of the $300k, less the 13k agent fees and stamp duty, you are left with $138,500.

So theres $111,500 of your $1m that vanished into thin air. You now have $888,500. Your cashflow has improved to -$675. You take $100k and reduce some debt. This improves your property cashflow to -$80 wk. The other $38,500 is kept to live off and fund health expenses, care etc.

Still, you are sinking. Your weekly cashflow is now -$580. At this rate you will be broke within 6 months.

2. A month later, you sell a second property. This time you get a fair price. Its still the same tax year. OK, so we sell a property for $200k. Because the property was negatively geared, you have been claiming depreciation all these years and the written down value is actually $70k. That means you have a paper profit of $130k......which you have to pay tax on. Even with your 50% discount, you owe $31,525 in tax. The bank takes their $70k owing. Out of the $200k, less the 8k agent fees and stamp duty, you are left with $90,475.

So theres another $40k of your $1m that vanished into thin air. You now have $848,975. Your cashflow has improved to -$650. You take $90k and reduce some debt. This improves your property cashflow to $0 wk. 

Still, you are sinking. Your weekly cashflow is now -$500. At this rate you will still be broke within 6 months.

So the cycle repeats until you are cashflow neutral. By my sums, you will need to sell 6 of the 8 properties to become cashflow neutral and pay off all debt, reducing your net worth to around $650k.

Now if you had been cashflow positive from the start, you would not have had to lose $350k in equity, would not have been forced to sell anything, and would not have to take a cut in lifestyle.

So to everyone who thinks they are "rich".....take a real hard look at yourselves.


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## bullmarket (23 January 2006)

Hi money tree

I think the moral behind your post is that one should plan their strategies and actively manage the nett value of their portfolio, via portfolio management software, spreadsheets or whatever.

Taking the scenario you painted where all investment properties are effectively negatively geared, then hopefully the capital appreciation of the properties has more than compensated for the negative cashflows - which is the whole concept behind negative gearing properties.

Also, in your example where one is suddenly totally incapacitated, hopefully one had taken that possible scenario into account when they had put together their investment plan and taken appropriate measures like insurances, superannuation or whatever else might be appropriate etc etc to ensure they are not financially burdened to any great extent, if at all, if the worst case scenario eventuates.

cheers

bullmarket


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## GreatPig (23 January 2006)

Moneytree,

Income protection insurance would help, although it can be quite expensive.

As someone planning to ultimately live off my investments (which includes the trading business), being overall cashflow positive is obviously important.

However, that could be a cashflow-negative property portfolio with sufficient income from other sources (trading and other income investments) to cover the outgoings plus living expenses.

Cheers,
GP


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

I had a mechanic once and we got talking.

In 1989, he was worth $3m. he owned around 25 properties. As rates went up, his cashflow got worse and worse, and he was forced to sell property after property in a sharply falling market. By the end, he had no properties and owed $1m. he declared bankruptcy.

I had not really understood the importance of cashflow until that point.

it amazes me how many people consider themselves to be financially secure.

Financial security is when you can stop working tomorrow and not suffer any loss of lifestyle or loss of net worth.


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

Income protection and total permanent disability insurance are allowable deductions from Super. Instead of paying these costs out of 48.5% post tax income, they should be paid out of 15% post tax income via Super.


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## bullmarket (23 January 2006)

It looks to me we are digressing away from Julia's original intentions for this thread.

Money tree: the point I was making in my earlier post is that with planning and taking appropriate steps, one can largely mitigate or even eliminate the effects of the potential worst case scenario you painted before.

bullmarket


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

The topic is "what does money mean to you?" so unless we start talking about footy, we are on topic.

"with planning and taking appropriate steps, one can largely mitigate or even eliminate the effects of the potential worst case scenario you painted before"

one can. But will one? With people like tech/a telling people advisors are scum and crap blah blah blah......one wont.


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## Julia (23 January 2006)

My intention when starting this thread was an interest in members' philosophy about money and its importance or otherwise in their lives.

I had hoped it wouldn't get snagged up in yet another round of sniping about personalities.

Julia


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## bullmarket (23 January 2006)

Hi Julia 



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> My intention when starting this thread was an interest in members' philosophy about money and its importance or otherwise in their lives.
> 
> I had hoped it wouldn't get snagged up in yet another round of sniping about personalities.
> 
> Julia




That's what I thought when I posted I thought we were digressing from your original intentions earlier.

I posted in tech's 'poll' thread that I saw both tech and money tree making total fools of themselves by the way they carried on in here.  It looks like money tree wants to go on with it (judging by his earlier post) but I'm not going to bite and will just continue to call things as I see them and not get involved in any childish, petty games money tree might be playing.

Don't let them get to you Julia and keep those thought provoking threads coming 

Going for a wander to see what's happening in other threads 

regards

bullmarket


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## nizar (23 January 2006)

moneytree thx for the advice and examples..

u had some good points in there....got me thinking...

cheers


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## It's Snake Pliskin (23 January 2006)

I enjoy Moneytree`s examples.

I feel he has a right to defend himself if one want`s to attack him. If it`s good for one it`s good for all. Importantly, don`t resist his posts, you may learn something.

Maybe we should start a new forum on moneytree`s ideas, tax minimisation, positive cashflow etc. Moneytree would you be into that?


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## visual (23 January 2006)

Snake,
from what I understand Julia thread is about what money means to you,not how to make it,or how to save it or whatever.....
go back and look at her example and you`ll understand

Money tree and tech should just open their own threads if they want to sell something be their own products or expertise.


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## Happy (23 January 2006)

I always say that I can do voluntary work full time.

Providing I’ll get place to live in, car every now and then, petrol when needed, number of mod coms including toilet paper, shampoo, digital TV, DVD, computer.
Food, free holiday now and then, some entertainment, maybe night out once or twice a month.

And when time to retire, all of the above without the need for voluntary work.

Funny, but when I say that, people walk away as if I don’t make sense.


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## Happy (23 January 2006)

Looks like I missed the subject too.

OK, I can work for 1 dollar a year, providing ….(see above)


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## bullmarket (23 January 2006)

Hi snake



			
				Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> I enjoy Moneytree`s examples.
> 
> I feel he has a right to defend himself if one want`s to attack him. If it`s good for one it`s good for all. Importantly, don`t resist his posts, you may learn something.
> 
> Maybe we should start a new forum on moneytree`s ideas, tax minimisation, positive cashflow etc. Moneytree would you be into that?




Money tree's example was probably valid, although I won't be spending time verifying his number crunching.  I just simply posted subsequent replies giving an example of how one can largely mitigate the negative affects of tree's worst case scenario in one post and saying in another that I thought we were digressing from Julia's original intention for this thread.  

Money tree then replied saying we weren't digressing (and he's entitled to his opnion) and then in the same post he went off on a tangent taking an extract from my earlier post, agreeing with it and then using it to take what I see as cowardly cheap shot at tech/a from behind a nic using the extract from my post as the excuse.  My perception of money tree is that he's the type of person that is not happy unless he is blueing with someone and has trouble coping with people who don't share the same views as him. That's fine, but sad imo for him.  I gave my views on both tech/a and money tree in tech's 'poll' thread. Nothing has changed for me and I'll just continue to call things as I see them 

Money tree, like everyone else, has the option to be constructive rather than abusive when refuting any attacks but he doesn't seem to be taking that option from what I see.

cheers 

bullmarket


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## Julia (23 January 2006)

My thanks to Bullmarket and Visual.  You are both right - the thread was not supposed to be about tax minimisation or any other money making ideas.
They are immensely useful and interesting, but deserve their own thread probably under "Trading Strategies".  The earlier part of this thread contained several thoughtful insights from members regarding their *philosophy *  about the role of money.

Moneytree:  may I respectfully suggest that if you want to keep bagging Tech-A you confine it to the thread which is dedicated to the squabble between the two of you, so that your irritation with him does not intrude on what to many of the rest of us is an interesting and thought-provoking discussion.    Thanks.

Julia


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## It's Snake Pliskin (23 January 2006)

Hi Bullmarket,

My post was not directed at anyone in particular.

I agree with what you say. I just pointed out that he may have a case as Tech was always at him. (Enough said by me)

Would money really matter if we all understood our existence for what it really is? 
Look at the universe, and then think, are we unique? Or are we just here to work for money?


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## carpets (23 January 2006)

Dont bother asking a uni student about money, because they dont have any...


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

Some of you need to get off your high horse, seriously. 

Julia:

1. I did not bag tech/a. 
2. If you wanted philosophical responses, perhaps you should have been more specific.
3. You started the thread discussing yield, if you didnt want yield brought up you shouldnt have started.
4. The topic is "what does money mean to you".....a very broad question. You even asked for a more broad discussion on topics discussed in the other thread. I have no problem with you putting in a later post saying "what I meant was philosophy of money" but dont blame me for the way I interpreted your topic.

bullmarket:

1. your perception is yours. Is there a need to share it?
2. you accuse me of being childish and playing games. please provide evidence supporting this view or be silent.

nizar and snake:

thanks. if only there were more like you who appreciate those who take the time to share their experience. Instead this forum seems to be full of ungrateful whiners who dont say a word when you post something good......post something even slightly bad and they all jump on the bandwagon and bitch about how hard they have it. oh, you poor buggers. tell you what, hows about Joe gives you a full refund? oh thats right.....you dont pay!!!


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## Jay-684 (23 January 2006)

carpets said:
			
		

> Dont bother asking a uni student about money, because they dont have any...




Some of us do...

I dont understand people who say "I have no money, I'm a uni student", unless of course they live out of home, in which case I understand.

A full time course of 40 credit points a semester is on average about 12-18 hours of uni a week. That leaves alot of time to not only finish those assignments but also to get a job.

I'm currently in my 3rd year of uni - I'm 21, and thus far have managed to work 3 days (or approx. 21-28 hours a week) with an annual income from my employment of approx. $15,000 a year after tax. Money is easy to earn if you want it and are willing to do any job to get it.

It all comes down to time management, ambition and actively making the choice to earn money.


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## bullmarket (23 January 2006)

Hi Snake 

No problem  I was just clarifying the reasons for my views.

At least you agreed with me, so I'm not the only one. I agree with you in that Money tree most probably means well, but to me at least, comes across as having trouble coping with differing views and reacts in a way that makes him look bad imo.....maybe I just have a thicker skin than most   

Anyway, as I said in tech's 'poll' thread, there are much more important things going on in the world atm to worry about rather than the petty squabbling between 2 childish posters (money tree and tech/a) who can't seem to get along and so I'll just continue to call things as I see them.

cheers and see you in the soup 

bullmarket


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

OK so here is my philosophy on money:

1. it does not make you happy
2. the more you have, the less happy you are
3. you never have enough
4. nothing starts more arguments
5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose
6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive
7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous
8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.
9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.
10. those who dont have it, dont really care


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## visual (23 January 2006)

money tree no wonder you and tech dont get along you are both silly judgemental and full of yourselves,

but if only you both had the manners to respect the spirit of the threads it would be ok
instead you go off on a tandem ,spare me


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## It's Snake Pliskin (23 January 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> money tree no wonder you and tech dont get along you are both silly judgemental and full of yourselves,
> 
> but if only you both had the manners to respect the spirit of the threads it would be ok
> instead you go off on a tandem ,spare me




So what are you doing? Talking about philosophy? No you are continuing the spat with MT.

Julia sorry if I`m not talking about the philosophy of money here, but just pointing something out to Visual.


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## visual (23 January 2006)

Snake,
sorry, were you talking philosofically when you defended the right of mt to go off topic.


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## Mrs Mallins (23 January 2006)

Dear me.  Moneytree, you need a cup of tea and a good lie down.  Those words used often in US sit com's come to mind as useful advice -  'Settle' and 'Back off'.  

Money for me is a necessary component to buy more wool to knit - but there is only so much wool an old lady can use -- the old hands you know.  (Old hands is the reason to take up knitting air!)

I only need a bit to live comfortably at home with a good computer and Internet connection, TV, sound system - and an adequatly equipped kitchen and a comfory bed. Need some money put by to ensure those comforts well into the future.  Don't like travelling much anymore.  Like going to concerts but for me most tickets are free as a post career benefit; I worked for years in low paying demanding but spiritually rewarding arts practice development.

I have little need for gross amounts of money.  If I had gross amounts I'd revisit some old fine music and opera projects that couldn't continue for want of cash then but for which there is more public punter support now.


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## money tree (23 January 2006)

police!

arrest that man.

he went off on a tangent.

Throw him in Guantanamo bay with the rest of the evil-doers!

I can just imagine the conversation between the inmates:

"so what you in for?"

"I was on this forum, and I went off on a tangent.....man am I remorseful!"

new legislation passed:

anyone who strays off topic even slighly will be hung from the gallows.

oops, better get back on topic before the men in black take me away....

10. those who are too ignorant to know when they are being ripped off, deserve it


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## It's Snake Pliskin (23 January 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Snake,
> sorry, were you talking philosofically when you defended the right of mt to go off topic.




Does he have a right to go off on a tangent now? 

Make up your mind!


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## clowboy (23 January 2006)

well just got home from work and this thread has been movely along at a rapid pace.


About the only real post that had any importance was the first post by money tree.

Maybee slightly off topic but useful information that made me stop and think.


Pity about the other 10 minutes I wasted reading the rest of the posts.


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## Julia (23 January 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Hi Bullmarket,
> 
> 
> Would money really matter if we all understood our existence for what it really is?
> Look at the universe, and then think, are we unique? Or are we just here to work for money?




Hi Snake,

Well, that returns our sense of perspective doesn't it.  I'm sure we could all benefit from attempting to retain some measure of objectivity about our own circumstances.  You'd probably agree, though, that often this is easier said than done.  It's not that easy to separate out one's emotional and personal motives from the intellectual appreciation of the bigger picture.  Nonetheless, you've provided a useful reminder of what we can aspire too.

Cheers

Julia


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## ghotib (23 January 2006)

Mrs Mallins said:
			
		

> ...Like going to concerts but for me most tickets are free as a post career benefit; I worked for years in low paying demanding but spiritually rewarding arts practice development.
> 
> I have little need for gross amounts of money.  If I had gross amounts I'd revisit some old fine music and opera projects that couldn't continue for want of cash then but for which there is more public punter support now.




Hey, another opera fan!!! Good One 

If I stop to think what money means to me I get confused about what money actually is - which is nothing more than a social agreement. So I focus on what I want to do and how to match that with money available or obtainable. Step one is ensure that capital is growing, even on bad stock market days and days when I'm completely caught up in real life. That's enough for me to worry about.

Ghoti


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## doctorj (24 January 2006)

There are plenty of little sayings that begin along the lines of 'life is like a book'.  I can't recall the exact wording, but a version I heard of it one day went the along the lines of life being a book, with each experience a new page.

I figure we're only passing through so I'd like to experience as much as I can while I'm here.  Unfortunately money will make the difference between my life being a picture book of experience or a multivolume encyclopaedia, so here I am...


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## ob1kenobi (24 January 2006)

I had a Franciscan education at school (Brisbane). So I grew up with St. Francis of Assisi as a role model. For me, money is a tool. There are too many other things in life and in the world that is far more precious to me than money.


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## sandik17 (26 January 2006)

'making money' for me is 'excitement'.  Watching my share value improve offers a sense of pride I suppose, but also adrenaline.
What money means to me....is stability.


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## Duckman#72 (26 January 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> "Because the property was negatively geared, you have been claiming depreciation all these years and the written down value is actually $100k.
> 
> Because the property was negatively geared, you have been claiming depreciation all these years and the written down value is actually $70k.





Tree 

I can understand your point but you take things to the extreme.

The capital allowance or building write-off that I assume you are referring to with your example of depreciation claims doesn't always have to be deducted from cost base of the property. That only pertains to properties purchased in the last couple of years after changes to the legislation.

As I see it a rental property purchased in 1988 and sold in 2004 would have had eighteen years of 2.5% building write off claim (based on construction cost) without affecting the cost base one cent on sale.

Duckman


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## Fleeta (27 January 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> OK so here is my philosophy on money:
> 
> 1. it does not make you happy
> 2. the more you have, the less happy you are
> ...




Ouch! I think most of us have seen these things in action. In fact I can match most of these up with people I know. Unfortunately, I could be number 6 and also number 9!!! I really hate the people who are number 7's and I pity those that are number 8's - or trying to 'keep up with the Jones''

I read a book recently called 'Affluenza'. I can't remember who wrote it but it is a fantastic book about how much of a materialistic and consumer driven culture we have become, which has resulted in a decline of community spirit. For example, people no longer have time to spend with their kids, so they just buy them more stuff...it can't go on like this.

For me, money = time. I want to have more time to do the things I want to do, therefore money helps me to pay for the things I don't want to do (i.e. cook, clean, wait for a train, etc.) and also adds convenience to my life. My main aim in life is to live off passive income...then I don't need to work. Then I can devote my time to writing books, doing bad stand-up comedy, playing bad music, playing shocking golf and numerous other things I like to do that I'm not good enough to get paid for.

The other thing I don't get is people who constantly 'shop'. What is that? How is it enjoyable?


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## clowboy (27 January 2006)

Fleeta said:
			
		

> The other thing I don't get is people who constantly 'shop'. What is that? How is it enjoyable?




Fleeta I think that's that materialistic thing setting in again


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## Julia (27 January 2006)

Hi Fleeta

Hope you're staying warm over there.

There have actually been a number of serious studies done on compulsive shopping.  You may not be surprised to know that this affects mostly women.  The similarly unsurprising finding of these studies is that the compulsive need to buy more and more is directly related to the degree of insecurity or lack of self worth of the individual.

Now, before any of you blokes start telling your wives and girlfriends that if they want to buy something new, it's an indication of a psychological problem, the sort of level of purchasing in these studies was such that debts were incurred way beyond the person's capacity to repay, and even understanding that, the people concerned were unable to stop their buying.

Apparently in its most serious form, it is regarded as an addiction like any other, e.g. alcohol, gambling etc.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (27 January 2006)

Fleeta said:
			
		

> I read a book recently called 'Affluenza'. I can't remember who wrote it but it is a fantastic book about how much of a materialistic and consumer driven culture we have become, which has resulted in a decline of community spirit. For example, people no longer have time to spend with their kids, so they just buy them more stuff...it can't go on like this.



Worst of all are those "I don't spend much time with the kids but it's "quality time"" types. One of the most common acts of denial IMO.


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## money tree (27 January 2006)

1. it does not make you happy
2. the more you have, the less happy you are
3. you never have enough
4. nothing starts more arguments
5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose
6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive
7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous
8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.
9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.
10. those who dont have it, dont really care

10 yrs ago, I was a #6. This caused me to be a #4 with my ex, who was an #8. This resulting in #1 for both of us. 

These days Im no longer a #6, #4 or a #1. I am now a cross between #10 and #9, though I would like to be a #3


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## Julia (27 January 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> 1. it does not make you happy
> 2. the more you have, the less happy you are
> 3. you never have enough
> 4. nothing starts more arguments
> ...




Why would you like to be a #3?  Perhaps I've interpreted this one incorrectly, but it sounds to me like someone who will never stop running after more and more money which doesn't sound all that healthy to me.

Julia


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## bullmarket (27 January 2006)

Hi Julia

yes agree with your



> Why would you like to be a #3? Perhaps I've interpreted this one incorrectly, but it sounds to me like someone who will never stop running after more and more money which doesn't sound all that healthy to me.




I'm also not sure what point he's trying to make with #7 either. There are many well known and successful celebrities, sports people and business people who donate to and speak about the work they do for various charities close to them in order to try to generate more support. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. 

cheers

bullmarket


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## nizar (27 January 2006)

bullmarket said:
			
		

> Hi Julia
> 
> yes agree with your
> 
> ...




i see exactly the point about #7..

its better to be generous and give money to charity and be anonymous..

that means u juz wanna share ur wealth to those who are not as fortunate as u... if ur name is published or u make it a public issue that u donated, that means ur giving money juz 2 be known as ie. famous for being "generous" even tho the reason ur giving is for ur own benefit, that is, for fame..

i know that whether its anonymous or not the money will help ppl, 2 be purely giving without any thing in return is much better, instead of giving 2 get fame or a generous name in return..

juz my opinion


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## bullmarket (27 January 2006)

Hi nizar

no problem.....I can see the point you are making but imo it is a very cynical view as I believe only a very small minority would donate to charities for the reasons you gave, but I accept it could happen in a very small number of cases.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of people who donate their time, money or whatever to charities close to them and speak publically about it do it for the sole purpose of highlighting the chartities and their needs to the general public with the hope it will generate more support and hence more donations that otherwise would not have been received by those charities had the general public not been made aware of their existance and/or needs.

cheers 

bullmarket


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## Fleeta (27 January 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> 10 yrs ago, I was a #6. This caused me to be a #4 with my ex, who was an #8. This resulting in #1 for both of us.
> 
> These days Im no longer a #6, #4 or a #1. I am now a cross between #10 and #9, though I would like to be a #3




Thanks Tree, this thread has been quite thought provoking for me. I also loved the fisherman story.

Personally I think in many ways people are victims of their surrounds. For me, one of the hardest things i've found working in the corporate world is that peoples attitudes are just imparted on each other to the point where everyone thinks and acts the same way - and it's all driven by money. The simple life sounds better to me at times.


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## happytrader (27 January 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> 1. it does not make you happy
> 2. the more you have, the less happy you are
> 3. you never have enough
> 4. nothing starts more arguments
> ...




Hi Moneytree

You appear to have created very emotive and negative associations to money. You could just as easily be describing a bad relationship or a chronic disease. In fact you make it sound stressful, immoral and downright dangerous. With attitudes like these it is a wonder you are not trying to repel it, divest yourself of it or at least keep at bay.

No insult intended but thats how your very descriptive list reads. Its like, who in their right mind would aspire to attain it.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## ctp6360 (28 January 2006)

I recently sold my business for quite a bit of money (~$15m) and now that I have a lot of money I have a few observations from the other side.

1) I think you really have to be conditioned to have a lot of money, because its a weird sensation being able to buy or do absolutely anything that money can buy; I think if you are emotionally ready for it then when you get it you don't just go on a big spending spree. I guess having EARNT the money is a big thing too, no one is going to piss away years and years of hard work. At the same time, I wasn't and I'm not really excited about my current position, I think this is because I always expected (without being cocky) to be a success in this business, so when it happened I wasn't SUPRISED like you would be with a lotto win.

2) It never seems like enough: call me selfish, but to do all of the things I want to do I still don't feel like I have enough. Maybe this is what drives those people who REALLY have a lot of money to keep working until they are dead. Hopefully I can avoid that one.

3) People change; the people who know about me selling my business are very very few, it was only people who figured it out from the newspaper article who know and my family..but those who do know, its REMARKABLE how differently they treat you. My honest advice would be, if you're going to make a lot of money, keep it quiet, its a horrible feeling when people who have treated you one way all your life just completely change.

4) You realise how much good you can do with the money. Although I haven't bought a ferrari, I have done a few other things:

I paid of my parent's loans and my fiancee's parents loans, and I'm going to buy them both new cars, I helped my brother with some seed capital for his business.

Its this feeling of COMPLETELY changing people's lives that is why I want MORE money, because I realise that the more I have, the more I would be able to help people who I love so that money is no longer an issue in their lives.

The worst thing about it, and the thing you wouldn't expect, is that when you do something like pay off a loan that someone has fought their whole life to pay off, it is very humiliating for them. Hearing my father and my fiance's father say thankyou was probably the worst part about the whole thing. Not because I didn't want them to be greatful (**** me if they weren't you'd be disappointed), but because I would never ever want to put someone in a position where, because of money they felt indebted to me. I feel that, put in the same situation as me, they would do the same for me and more.

Two things prompted me to post, one was that it feels good to get these thoughts out in an anonymous way whilst still having people's opinions to reflect on, and also because I think that moneytree has a very very bitter view of money and I don't think that is right. I am experiencing first hand the positive effects of money, I consider myself very lucky to be in this position.

Addressing moneytree's points specifically:

1. it does not make you happy

I totally agree with this. The money on its own did not make me happy nor even excited, at all. Which was weird because I thought it would! But what does make me happy is being able to help my loved ones overcome their worries, fears and life-long fight with debt. That makes me happy and it is a direct consequence of money.

So maybe it isn't MONEY that makes you happy, its the correct USE of money that makes you happy.

2. the more you have, the less happy you are

That makes compound interest sound like a pretty daunting proposition!

3. you never have enough

Well I would be contradicting my earlier comments if I argued with this. But surely there comes a point where one can acknowledge that they have enough. I'm 23 and I could retire now, but do you realise how worthless I would feel if I did? Did it occur to you that its not the pursuit of money that drives people to want more, but maybe it is the feeling of importance they derive from making more that they crave.

4. nothing starts more arguments

If you don't have the appropriate agreements in place at the outset. Money arguments occur when people have conflicting views about the terms of an agreement. If I gave money to my Dad and then 2 years down the track demanded it back from him, what do you think is going to happen?

Its the same with business, if you are upfront with the terms of an agreement at the start there can't be any arguments because everyone knows where they stand!

5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose

I'll get back to you on that one. When you say hard to aquire though, its taken me 5 years to get to where I am now and I couldn't think of a more positive 5 years in my life, I've had a great time. Working hard was tough, but now that I have nothing to work hard on I'm MISSING it.

Furthermore, I don't think money is easy to lose if you have a sensible plan for how to invest it. I realise there are unforseen issues such as divorce which affected you, moneytree, and losing half would sure hurt me, but I still don't see that as a reason to avoid money altogether as though it brings on these horrible things.

That's like me avoiding riding a bike because I might fall off and break my arm. Money brings too many good things to avoid it because there are a few negative elements too.

6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive

I totally disagree. Look at people who struggle to pay off their credit cards and home loans. They stay up at night worrying about it, they obsess negatively about it like you are now, they talk to everyone about it constantly and curse the government or the banks or whoever else the thing "put" them in this situation.

I'm not saying the opposite to you, that people who have money are the ones that are "truly alive", I'm just saying that if you think that its people WITH money who let money dictate their moves then answer me a question: do you think all the people going to work on Monday morning are letting money dictate their decisions, or not?

7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous

I totally agree!

8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.

That's a loaded sentence but you're probably right.

9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.

I'll keep that in mind, you should add "those who have it and wish to keep it don't give their fiancee's credit cards"

10. those who dont have it, dont really care

About what? money or other people?

Thanks for starting this thread Julia, sometimes it is good to take a step back and wonder what we are doing all this for, and I really hope everyone comes to the conclusion that it is worthwhile.


----------



## nizar (28 January 2006)

ctp6360 said:
			
		

> I recently sold my business for quite a bit of money (~$15m) and now that I have a lot of money I have a few observations from the other side.
> 
> 1) I think you really have to be conditioned to have a lot of money, because its a weird sensation being able to buy or do absolutely anything that money can buy; I think if you are emotionally ready for it then when you get it you don't just go on a big spending spree. I guess having EARNT the money is a big thing too, no one is going to piss away years and years of hard work. At the same time, I wasn't and I'm not really excited about my current position, I think this is because I always expected (without being cocky) to be a success in this business, so when it happened I wasn't SUPRISED like you would be with a lotto win.
> 
> ...





hey thats a very good effort bro...

23yrs old, umm do u mind me asking wat type of business it was..?


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## ctp6360 (28 January 2006)

I'll answer you in private nizar


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## Julia (28 January 2006)

ctp6360

Well, congratulations.  You have done really well.  What your comments suggest to me is that you've probably got where you have because of careful planning in addition to hard work.  I doubt that many 23 year olds would be doing such a thoughtful examination of their current situation as you have described in your post.

I can't imagine you sitting back and not working for long - doubt that would be comfortable for you.

Your comments about the awkwardness involved in paying off your families' loans are interesting.  I suppose it's a situation which doesn't occur very often and as such none of us have had much "practice" at handling it from either side.  A lot of people in your situation would never have considered helping anyone else, even within their own family.  In my experience, it's usually easier to give than to receive and you are obviously really sensitive to the fact that amongst their gratitude they are a bit embarrassed.
Don't let this take away the pleasure of being able to give.  My suggestion would be to put the gesture now that it is done in the background and soon the discomfort will disappear.  

When I was going through a hard time after a divorce, my mother helped me out in various ways.  It is one of my greatest regrets that, now that I can afford to give her whatever she would have wanted, she is no longer alive.
So just be pleased at what you have been able to do.

Overall I agree with the comments about Moneytree's  observations about money which I find to be rather over-generalising.  Certainly, some of this is correct, but the overall tone of bitterness and lack of emphasis on all the really positive things money can do is something I can't agree with.

Regarding people putting too much focus on money, this is simply unavoidable if you are really poor.  When you want to go out and buy some food, but see the electricity account sitting there and know you can't pay it on your unemployment or sickness benefit, how the hell can you do anything other than be totally focused on money.  Being poor is the ultimate humiliation.
A person who would otherwise have good self esteem is cut down to nothing if they have no money.  Sometimes I think people who are so dismissive about the importance of having enough money should spend a few months on a government benefit in order to gain some appreciation of how it feels to be part of our society's disadvantaged minority.

Anyway, ctp, all the best for your future which I would expect to be even better than what you have achieved so far.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (29 January 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Regarding people putting too much focus on money, this is simply unavoidable if you are really poor.  When you want to go out and buy some food, but see the electricity account sitting there and know you can't pay it on your unemployment or sickness benefit, how the hell can you do anything other than be totally focused on money.  Being poor is the ultimate humiliation.
> A person who would otherwise have good self esteem is cut down to nothing if they have no money.  Sometimes I think people who are so dismissive about the importance of having enough money should spend a few months on a government benefit in order to gain some appreciation of how it feels to be part of our society's disadvantaged minority.



TOTALLY agreed there Julia.

I think the situation of those with little money is far too often overlooked. For example (there are plenty...), far too often we hear that if x is done then that will put power bills up "only 5%" etc. 5% on electricty might mean little to most, but it's yet another outright disaster for the unemployed. Power bills in particular really do cause a lot of sleepless nights. There are plenty of people right now who do not have electricity connected, or use it only for the fridge and cooking, because they simply can't afford it.

It is for similar reasons that I view the rise in house prices as a social diaster. It has truly shattered the dreams of hundreds of thousands of Australians in low paying jobs. If rents rise then that will turn a disaster into a true catastrophy. Don't anyone dare tell me they ought to get a better job... Someone has to do the low paying jobs and often they're the most important to society as a whole. Just contemplate what would happen without people collecting garbage. We'd miss them more than many high paying jobs.

That Australia's house prices are amongst the most unaffordable in the world according to a recent study is something requiring urgent attention IMO. People have to live somewhere and wages aren't rising anywhere near quickly enough to come to the rescue. The dark side of the boom... The good thing about stocks is that rising in value doesn't hurt anyone. Houses aren't the same, they're essential as a place to live in.

That said, I'm actually glad to have been poor in the past although I certainly wasn't at the time. It teaches you a lot and ensures that both feet stay very firmly on the ground as far as ego etc is concerned. It also lead to my learning everything I could about the making of money and limiting expenses. I think I'm far happier now as a direct result. I don't need a plasma TV, leather longe, McMansion or whatever to be happy. Based on what I see going on in the shops, an awful lot of people do "need" those things and are willing to put themselves into incredible debt to have them. If ever these people become unemployed, they're in for an incredible shock in terms of what debt is really about.

In my opinion the measure of success for any society is how it looks after the disadvantaged. The sick, elderly, disabled, poor and so on. That said, socialism isn't a particularly successful economic model IMO so there needs to be a balance which favours capitalism whilst helping those who for whatever reason (unless it's their own choice) don't succeed in that system. 

At the risk of being political, I object strongly to handing out welfare to those with plenty (I'd be more specific but that will start a war...) whilst imposing all sorts of ridiculous conditions on those genuinely in need simply because they are a minority. That comment's aimed at both sides of politics as neither has a clean record.


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## clowboy (29 January 2006)

Stocks going up don't hurt anyone.

That's a bold statement and I wouldn't really agree with it.

If when the housing boom ended (which for the most part it did, with some exceptions) the sharemarket didn't take over in it's place would we as a country be where we are today? or would we be in a recession?

It has been argued that without our resource sector we would be anyhow.

Not that Im keen for a recession but the sooner it comes the less people that will be hurt.

In terms of going into debt for plasma TV's etc.....

People (generaly) Don't have even a basic understanding of money anymore.

If a 25 (bear in mind he has only ever seen boom times) year old on 45k a year bought a $200, 000 house and a year later it is valued at $250,000 then why shouldnt he use that equity to buy himself some nice things?  It is his money after all he just doesn't want to sell the property ATM.  

This is all very well until prices stop rising and/or he decides to sell and the mathmatics don't add up anymore.


It is those with the money that influence the lives of those without money.

Prices cannot go up if the masses cannot afford to pay them. so long as the masses can so what about the little bloke.

In terms of being the garbage collector....not such a bad job really....go be a trolley collector for someone sub contracted out to COLES.  No one here in there right mind would take the job.  YOU could earn MORE collecting coke cans on the side of the street and taking them to a colection point.


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## Wealth Wizard (29 January 2006)

Hello all, this is a great site, i have been searching for a good forum group to talk to about investments and building wealth and it seems there are some good links.

i have read the 4 pages in this thread..WHERE DID IT GO WRONG!!   

I agree with MT's arguement that this is a broad topic and his discussion on negative cashflow was quite informative and justly relevant to a general "money" discussion and its implications on our lives, so an example of how bad money management can lead to ruin it compleatly on topic as is shows that money for those who missmanage means huge problems!!  

as for the list that seems to be the new topic of the thread i tend to agree with most of it and think that ctp6360 has the differences covered.


finally money to me simply means having more options to embrace our already limited lives, and if im going to be here for a while then i want all the options i can get!!


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## Julia (29 January 2006)

Smurf,

I don't think a discussion about welfare to the affluent need necessarily "start a war".  I for one would be really interested in your comments in this regard.   Exchanging views  on various aspects of how our society works (or doesn't) imo helps us all develop empathy and understanding of others' points of view.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (29 January 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Smurf,
> 
> I don't think a discussion about welfare to the affluent need necessarily "start a war".  I for one would be really interested in your comments in this regard.   Exchanging views  on various aspects of how our society works (or doesn't) imo helps us all develop empathy and understanding of others' points of view.
> 
> Julia



OK, here goes but I think this will upset a few. This is going a bit far off the original topic of this thread I think but I'll answer the question since the thread has already drifted a lot...

The number one form of welfare that I would like to see abolished is the First Home Owners Grant (FHOG). All it's done is add even more fuel to the house price fire. People tend to pay what they can afford to for housing - give them a grant and they just added that to the offer price and up went house prices. 

First home buyers broke even at best, those moving up the property ladder lose since they pay higher prices but don't get the grant, the taxpayer loses whilst those owning multiple properties are the winners. I have absolutely nothing against anyone investing in property, but I don't like to see my tax $ being used to boost their returns. I would rather the money be put into hospitals, welfare for those genuinely needing it, roads etc.

The end result is a situation where house valuations are about double that seen at the start of bull markets and housing is less affordable in Australian cities than practically anywhere else in the world. It certainly looks like a bubble and the last thing it needed was my tax $ fuelling it.

But markets are cyclical and at some point we're going back to normal valuations. When and how I really don't know but history says it will happen. The problem is that I just can't see a way for the market to correct which doesn't cause misery for a great many people. Wages could increase at 7% per annum with house prices going nowhere for the next decade, that's one option but it's not going to do business a lot of good. Or house prices could fall thus trapping millions in negative equity. Or the boom could somehow carry on thus continuing the misery for those not born early enough to have already bought. Not a good situation to be in but that's where we are.

IMO it comes down partly to greed. People want more, more, more but fail to think of the broader consequences. It may well make them happy in the short term but when the boom ends reality sets in. And so it comes back to the point that IMO money does not buy happiness. Security brings happiness. If you use money to create security then that ought to lead to happiness. But borrowing lots of money to buy consumer goods and bid up the price of houses leads to anything but security despite being very common in practice. Just witness how many live in actual fear of interest rates moving up even to their long term average. Debt doesn't lead to happiness.

So I will be keeping the things I have rather than keeping up with whatever the latest consumer fad is simply because I would rather have security and happiness than debts and misery. It's somewhat different if you have the ability to pay cash of course, but if the statistics are correct then there must be a lot of people with huge debts in this country given that many such as myself owe nothing. I suspect that I sleep a lot better at night than many of the big borrowers despite them having a better quality bed to sleep on.

Consumer goods rapidly depreciate to zero. House prices are a matter of market opinion which changes in both directions. Debt is real and has to be repaid.


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## happytrader (29 January 2006)

I remember my first money experiences as a child being quite painful embarrasssing and disappointing with being ripped off by unscrupulous shopkeepers first on the list. Next came school mates and others either reneging on deals, borrowing or losing things without return or repayment. Later as an adult came workmates, flatmates and partners with similar tendencies and even more manner of creative behaviours for subsidising their own expenditure by smoking my cigarettes, eating my food, stealing, breaking, borrowing things, using my cars, bludging lifts, forgetting their wallets, not being able to pay their credit cards, share of the rent, their bills, their fines and unashamedly trying to spend my money for me and the list goes on. They were always talking and acting hardup and broke. The interesting thing about it is none of these adults were unemployed or in low income brackets.  Now looking back it is obvious to me they probably all had either poor me or poor money attitudes  with issues of scarcity, lack, greed and a sense of entitlement. Have these experiences left me with a bad attitude to money? No. Money doesn't have a mouth or make demands. It is what it is. 

Although I have been financially challenged, I have never ever felt poor. So what if I had to walk, take my lunch, eat creatively, window shop for clothes and toys or entertain myself at home or free venues for awhile. I always felt it was temporary, I would prevail and accummulate even more. The point is if I had not 'let go of the unsatisfactory situations' (the above mentioned type people) there is no way I could have positioned myself for satisfying ones. 

Does trading imitate life or what?

Cheers
Happytrader


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## happytrader (29 January 2006)

Hi Smurf

This is probably contrary to what you and most people think. Australia really, really is the lucky country and its still cheap to live here.

Like Julia I came from NZ 18 years ago. In 1986 a two  bedroom unit in an okay area, 20 minutes away from Auckland City cost $120 per week. My desk job paid $140 per week. Rump steak was $6.99. Lunch at Pizza Hut cost $7 with no extras and a steak and salad at the local pub bistro at least $10. Petrol was nearly a $1 a litre then. As for interest rates 5.5% return for a fixed term at a building society was pretty good. Bulk billing your MD didn't exist.

Now 20 years later in NQ a 2 bedroom flat in an okay area starts from $140 per week and the dole is more than my desk job paid. Eating is cheap and eating out is even cheaper. As for petrol its been cheap here for that long its about time it went up. As for furniture, electrical appliances, clothes, homewares same thing, cheaper than they were twenty years ago. Interest rates, well still a gift. Bulk billing, free emergency dental care all there.

Look at the reality Australia is the absolutely best place in the world to be 'poor' Why do you think people bust their backsides to live here?

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Smurf1976 (29 January 2006)

Agreed that Australia is a good place to live. My point is simply that the pursuit of paper wealth, and that's all the increase in house prices is for the majority, PAPER wealth, could well lead to an awful lot of unhappiness sometime in the future. If this bubble doesn't end in tears then to my understanding it will be the first one in recorded history to do so. Not good odds IMO and I don't see the point in fuelling it with taxpayer funds.

I just see a lot of people living a lifestyle they can't really afford without thinking of the likely consequences. Their choice of course, I'm not preaching, but I just see it as a symptom of being overly focused on paper economic wealth rather than true happiness.

Interesting to see how it develops over the next few years.


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## Julia (29 January 2006)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> OK, here goes but I think this will upset a few. This is going a bit far off the original topic of this thread I think but I'll answer the question since the thread has already drifted a lot...
> 
> The number one form of welfare that I would like to see abolished is the First Home Owners Grant (FHOG). All it's done is add even more fuel to the house price fire. People tend to pay what they can afford to for housing - give them a grant and they just added that to the offer price and up went house prices.
> 
> ...




Smurf:

You could have written the above on my behalf, so close is it to how I think.
Finding a solution is less easy.  In your earlier post you commented on the failure of socialist societies.  I sometimes try to work out just why they have failed so badly.  Is it because they necessarily offer no incentive to improve one's lot in life, is it because living is proscribed and offers no opportunity for initiative or individuality, or is it perhaps that many human beings are basically competitive in nature and the socialist ideal suppresses any notion of competitiveness?  I don't know.  I agree with your suggestion that an ideal society is in fact based on capitalism (incentive system) but will always care for its disadvantaged minorities.

Re those disadvantaged groups:  some in these categories quite rightly earn the anger of tax payers when they lie and cheat to obtain benefits, or, having obtained them, fail to use these tax payer provided incomes sensibly.
Most weeks I see someone on an unemployment or disability benefit, who has been simply irresponsible and then want to access further funds from the tax payer in the form of food vouchers, electricity/rent payments etc.
An example was a regular "client" on a disability pension who, having arrived in a taxi, cheerfully admitted he had spent the afternoon at the pub, bought some dope, and therefore couldn't afford to buy food!  He felt he should be entitled to a $40 food voucher.  I didn't agree.

Then on the other hand, there are people who are genuinely very sick and whose medical costs are quite beyond their capacity to pay on a sickness or disability benefit.  Often their already considerable health problems worsen because they simply cannot afford to pay the "gap" payment on X-Rays etc or access the necessary prescriptions.   Rents have risen more than 20% here in the last year yet there has been no similar increase in rent allowance fromCentrelink for tenants.

As you pointed out earlier, it is often unreasonable to expect many of these people to get either a better job or a job at all.  Some of them are simply unemployable for a variety of reasons.

These are the anomalies of our affluent society.  Hard working young people who will never be able to save the deposit for their own home, just because of house prices being so high.   Sick or otherwise disadvantaged people whose life problems are hugely exacerbated because they are marginalised and almost excluded from normal society because of being chronically poor.
Yet if social welfare benefits were increased, this would provide even greater potential for abuse. 

I agree re the first home owners' grant.  People were using this to buy homes worth over $1M.  What sort of resentment does this produce amongst the people who will never be able to own their own home.

I have no clever ideas for how to solve all this.  What I do feel is that there is precious little interest on the part of our politicians, federal and state, in attempting to do anything to make our society more equitable.  I just find it breathtaking to hear Costello suggest there will be further personal tax cuts when people are dying on hospital waiting lists, and HECS payments are becoming ever higher.

Julia


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## Julia (29 January 2006)

happytrader said:
			
		

> I remember my first money experiences as a child being quite painful embarrasssing and disappointing with being ripped off by unscrupulous shopkeepers first on the list. Next came school mates and others either reneging on deals, borrowing or losing things without return or repayment. Later as an adult came workmates, flatmates and partners with similar tendencies and even more manner of creative behaviours for subsidising their own expenditure by smoking my cigarettes, eating my food, stealing, breaking, borrowing things, using my cars, bludging lifts, forgetting their wallets, not being able to pay their credit cards, share of the rent, their bills, their fines and unashamedly trying to spend my money for me and the list goes on. They were always talking and acting hardup and broke. The interesting thing about it is none of these adults were unemployed or in low income brackets.  Now looking back it is obvious to me they probably all had either poor me or poor money attitudes  with issues of scarcity, lack, greed and a sense of entitlement. Have these experiences left me with a bad attitude to money? No. Money doesn't have a mouth or make demands. It is what it is.
> 
> Although I have been financially challenged, I have never ever felt poor. So what if I had to walk, take my lunch, eat creatively, window shop for clothes and toys or entertain myself at home or free venues for awhile. I always felt it was temporary, I would prevail and accummulate even more. The point is if I had not 'let go of the unsatisfactory situations' (the above mentioned type people) there is no way I could have positioned myself for satisfying ones.
> 
> ...




Hi Happytrader,

The standout phrase in your above post is "I always felt it was temporary".
You knew, as I did when I was poor, that you would overcome the difficulties and move on.

Also, you made the choice to leave behind the company of people who were essentially abusing your trust.

In an ideal world all people would be in a position to make the same sort of choices we have done.  Australia is one of not very many countries in the world where it is at least possible.

I guess this thread has appeared to veer somewhat off course at times, but it is all the kind of thing I had in mind when I first started the thread.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (30 January 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> I have no clever ideas for how to solve all this.  What I do feel is that there is precious little interest on the part of our politicians, federal and state, in attempting to do anything to make our society more equitable.  I just find it breathtaking to hear Costello suggest there will be further personal tax cuts when people are dying on hospital waiting lists, and HECS payments are becoming ever higher.



I too think tax cuts to be a low priority. Certainly if there was too much money being collected the by all means cut taxes. But when there's all the trouble with hospitals etc it's just not a sensible decision in my opinion.

From a broader economic perspective I also consider it to be irresponsible. The house price situation is on page 3 of today's Sunday Tasmanian and most people in southern Tas will have seen it. It's undeniable that housing is a problem. But what happens if taxes are cut? My guess is that it ends up going straight into higher house prices thus devaluing the savings of those trying to enter the market. The worst possible response to a clearly over valued market.

There's also the point that the time to boost government spending is during a downturn rather than a boom if stability is the objective. It's hard to boost spending by a great deal when you're already handing out tax cuts etc pretty much every year. Accumulate a surplus during boom times, spend it during hard times. To be fair, they are running a surplus which is sensible. But IMO now's not the time to be cutting personal income tax from a purely economic perspective. Company and other taxes maybe, but not personal income tax given the potential to add to the housing bubble. Once the housing situation is clearly under control, then might be the time to look at income taxes. That said, hospitals etc are still a greater priority IMO.


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## clowboy (30 January 2006)

mmmm

All very interesting conversation.

I was talking to someone who use to work with a person( doesn't that sound bad) who was high up in the health system and he said that the health system was a black whole...the more u throw at it the more it eats.

I don't believe I have all (or any) of the answers either but a good start would be to scrap everything and start again.

Medicare is a joke.

Who in there right mind sets up a system that you go to a doctor (as often as you want) pay him then go get a refund (maybee you are out of pocket $9).

It needs redesigning.

Tax is a joke.

It needs redesigning.  Alot of talk about this happening but I very much doubt it...not enuff pressure.

I have read a few articles about the Govt's budget and taxes etc and my understanding is that they don't really want to cut taxes (at least not until an election year) but rather have to.  Everytime they release estimates the actuals come out and blow there estimates out of the water.

From memory the latest surplus was 39 billion dollars and if not for the elcetion promises and tax cuts so far that figure was over tripple that.


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## happytrader (8 February 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Hi Happytrader,
> 
> The standout phrase in your above post is "I always felt it was temporary".
> You knew, as I did when I was poor, that you would overcome the difficulties and move on.
> ...




Hi Julia

Thank you for your kind words.

Actually when I do look back on these past events and most others, they really seem hilarious or just plain silly, kind of like B grade movies or maybe a bit Andy Worholish. Seriously,though I did learn plenty from them but I use them for entertainment value now. 

I sincerely hope that you and anyone else that has ever had afew bum wraps in their time will be able to do the same. If I buy a bag of potatoes and unwitting find a rotten one among them I'm just likely to plant it.



Cheers
Happytrader


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## Julia (8 February 2006)

happytrader said:
			
		

> Hi Julia
> 
> Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> ...




Happytrader:

I guess what the experience did for me was give me an understanding of how it must feel to be marginalised all the time, not just until I got it together again.  It's really easy to be critical of people who seem to constantly fail in everything they do.  Failure keeps getting reinforced.

Julia


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## happytrader (8 February 2006)

Hi Julia

That post only referred to me personally. As for being critical of anyone else well most people do a great job of doing that to themselves. In reply to your reference about being marginalised and being a failure, why buy into it, fall for the labels and act it out? Fact is people are generally self interested and full of sh*t. The only real defence is to learn to accept yourself warts and all.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## happytrader (18 February 2006)

Just in case anyone is interested in the psychology of money and how it relates to behaviours, here is a website you may find useful. You may even  find the insights and exercises useful. www.prosperityplace.com

It has been said your relationship with money reflects your relationship with yourself. Awareness of your personal finances mirrors a deepened understanding of how you have been treating yourself and interacting with the world around you.  Quoted in part from 'Build your money muscles' by Joan Sotkin.

Cheers
Happytrader


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