# Courses For Real Estate?



## darkhorse70 (12 July 2016)

Hey peeps,

Long story short, I need to start hedging against risk (in this case trading as a career) hence Im trying to diversify my skills = Property. The reality is property is a commodity and is subject to the laws of any market (supply/demand).

My question is, is there any specific course I can do related to real estate which will allow me to understand all the aspects of investing,flipping property, evaluating land worth etc.

If not, do any of you guys have any recommendations on how I can approach this field.

Thanks in advance,

DH7


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## pinkboy (12 July 2016)

www.propertychat.com.au 

pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (12 July 2016)

Thanks PB, cool avatar by the way!


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## VSntchr (12 July 2016)

Where are you at with your trading at the moment DH? Haven't seen you post for a while.


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## pinkboy (12 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> Thanks PB, cool avatar by the way!




Climbed Mauna Kea, Hawaii. Hardest climb in the world.  Second hardest thing Ive done on a bike!

pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (12 July 2016)

VSntchr said:


> Where are you at with your trading at the moment DH? Haven't seen you post for a while.




Hey VS, still struggling unfortunately. I've been focusing on CL the last few months, but after blowing up that small account trading Live on CL, i just started trading on CFD's. I am still trading and jotting down plays but I guess I lost faith in my self and my abilities (If ever I had any lol).

I guess I've sort of given up on trading as some thing that must happen and in a way it's better because I can just focus on refining my bad habits without having any hidden motives (I.e getting rich or being a good trader). Unfortunately my parents don't support the idea of me pursuing it and every time ive blown up an account and you have to face them, they just shake their heads. That constant disappointment of failing and failing gets tiring. Every time I take a few weeks time off I just realize it's some thing im passionate about. 

However my dad wants to get sort of involved with property and I realized that they are similar commodities so im transferring the skills ive learnt here to at least be useful some where else. I need to view the market place as a place to make money when the time is right instead of a place where I come to prove my ego. The shift to property will be good for me I believe. It will allow me to look at risk in a different manner (cash inflow/outflow etc) and I can transfer that mindset to trading instead of just viewing it as entertainment and being right.

I'll keep a close eye on the markets and only paper trade till I can prove to myself that I have the right to trade real money. I can spot opportunities but my timing, patience and ego are a big issue which I need to clear up. 

After my short stint with the prop shop, all I cared about was the rush and excitement. Paper trading is so boring for me but I havent earned the right to trade real money. My expectations are way to unrealistic and if people think that it takes a couple of years to extract consistent money from the markets, then theyve got another thing coming (me included!). Some people might be the exception.

The truth is we can't all be great traders.  

Hopefully it doesnt sound to gloomy lol


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## darkhorse70 (12 July 2016)

pinkboy said:


> Climbed Mauna Kea, Hawaii. Hardest climb in the world.  Second hardest thing Ive done on a bike!
> 
> pinkboy




haha Awesome, you should be proud. The only thing I do with my MTB is go down hills and practice manuals haha. That remnds me, I need to change the brake pads today!


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## Roller_1 (12 July 2016)

Darkhorse have you considered a systematic approach to trading, i'm not sure exactly your style but i gather that you're a more discretionary trader. That way you can backtest it and have a idea of what to expect? A bonus being your parents might appreciate it too...


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## Gringotts Bank (12 July 2016)

Gday DH,

The problem with trading is how common failure is.  Failing can make you feel bad, and feeling bad makes for poor decision-making (if certain other traits are also present).  Very few jobs allow you to work _really hard for years on end_ and end up with less $ than you started.  The potential for stress is more than most can handle.

Since regular failure is part of the game, knowing how to handle it is paramount for discretionary traders.  I've started (again!) monitoring thoughts and feelings before and during trade decisions.  I know my set ups, but I don't know myself well enough.  I'm confident this is going to be the key for my discretionary approach.  It should also help my systematic approach, since I have a bad habit of overriding the computer.


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## pinkboy (12 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> haha Awesome, you should be proud. The only thing I do with my MTB is go down hills and practice manuals haha. That remnds me, I need to change the brake pads today!




I like to think Im pretty handy on a Mountain bike as well! 
	

		
			
		

		
	




pinkboy


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## CanOz (12 July 2016)

PB, awesome stuff! ASF has a famous GB record holder, how cool is that!!


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## History Repeats (12 July 2016)

Darkhorse, you need to stop keep changing your goal every time. Correct me if i'm wrong, you started of with futures, then going prop doing spreads, and lastly trading CL. And now you want get into property?  If you don't have a lot of capital for trading how are you getting into the property business, you hedge your future with a uni degree not this property flipping. 

If you* really really really* want to succeed in trading then take it more seriously. Continue study at uni or high school don't drop out, have a part time job or two start saving money, stop trading with real money and start doing research on* everything*. Once you have a plan then start trading small. If you really want to trade in between when you have an actual plan, open a micro account trade forex. 

Start researching within here and other forums, go through threads from tech/a, trembling hand, pav ect. I.e: the breakout thread by tech/a, technical trading exercise thread from tech/a and pav, pav futures. I don't know if allowed to posted another forum link so i will just post the title you can google yourself or pm i send the link. Here is one that will help you build an actual trading plan, "NoDoji's Trading Plan Development".

Good luck.


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Gday DH,
> 
> The problem with trading is how common failure is.  Failing can make you feel bad, and feeling bad makes for poor decision-making (if certain other traits are also present).  Very few jobs allow you to work _really hard for years on end_ and end up with less $ than you started.  The potential for stress is more than most can handle.
> 
> Since regular failure is part of the game, knowing how to handle it is paramount for discretionary traders.  I've started (again!) monitoring thoughts and feelings before and during trade decisions.  I know my set ups, but I don't know myself well enough.  I'm confident this is going to be the key for my discretionary approach.  It should also help my systematic approach, since I have a bad habit of overriding the computer.




Hey GB, I agree with every thing you're saying. One of the crucial parts of keeping your morale high is progress which is a kind of mental reward. In trading, you can view progress in many ways but I guess most of us look at the bottom line which is $ which is wrong but when you don't make any progress, you run out of steam.

ATM Ive just been on auto pilot and have not really been monitoring my thoughts and feelings. I agree that having a some what systematic approach is good especially when it comes to taking profits and cutting losses.

Im working on it haha


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

Roller_1 said:


> Darkhorse have you considered a systematic approach to trading, i'm not sure exactly your style but i gather that you're a more discretionary trader. That way you can backtest it and have a idea of what to expect? A bonus being your parents might appreciate it too...




Roller, I did for a while but I gave up trying to process and understand the AMIBROKER stuff. 
It felt like an entirely new venture and one that needs its own time dedicated to it however I am going to try break down risk in a more systematic way. I believe that it will allow me to have a different perspective of when to take trades and when its not worth it.


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

pinkboy said:


> I like to think Im pretty handy on a Mountain bike as well!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thats crazy man. That sure would make an impression at an interview. 

I cant imagine cycling from Sydney to queensland in a day or two haha. 

Hopefully the journey was pretty flat.


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

History Repeats said:


> Darkhorse, you need to stop keep changing your goal every time. Correct me if i'm wrong, you started of with futures, then going prop doing spreads, and lastly trading CL. And now you want get into property?  If you don't have a lot of capital for trading how are you getting into the property business, you hedge your future with a uni degree not this property flipping.
> 
> If you* really really really* want to succeed in trading then take it more seriously. Continue study at uni or high school don't drop out, have a part time job or two start saving money, stop trading with real money and start doing research on* everything*. Once you have a plan then start trading small. If you really want to trade in between when you have an actual plan, open a micro account trade forex.
> 
> ...




Hey History, well ill attempt to argue your points just to get the story straight (not that it matters).

I started trading equities or learning about them,transitioned to futures and then with the help of Canoz kept learning before I got into that prop thing. Then I was forced to learn spreads (not that it was a bad thing but not feasible). After that there was a short duration where i tried to pursue spreads and tried out for Propex (not successful).

Then I realized that I was actually doing ok trading outright bills and treasuries.  

This was all mostly sim before realizing that there was more pay off in future commodities and indexes and then I went live, blew up a small account. I continued to trade fut commodities like Oil and still am doing so. I havent really done any back flips. Just slow transitions into markets of interest.

ON the contrary, I was in uni 3 years ago before being suspended for 12 months (failed accounting 3 times) and after that all my time was devoted to trading. I have re applied for uni 6 months ago and havent received any offers. Property is not much different from trading. They both have cash inflows and outflows, both are related to risk, trends and economic conditions.

Ill look up that trading plan,thanks for that.

Ps ive approached the markets in many unconventional and at times stupid ways but thats what learning is about. Testing the waters for yourself and not just doing things the way which the greater general preach.


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## Roller_1 (13 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> Roller, I did for a while but I gave up trying to process and understand the AMIBROKER stuff.
> It felt like an entirely new venture and one that needs its own time dedicated to it however I am going to try break down risk in a more systematic way. I believe that it will allow me to have a different perspective of when to take trades and when its not worth it.




What sort of brokerage were you paying with your small accounts? I think you'll find with a small account commissions will make it very hard to consistently be profitable.

Even if you're paying $6 per trade for 100 trades ($6 in, $6 out) thats $1200. So on a $5000 account to need to make 24% just to breakeven. 

You might not be in that situation but it may help


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

I was with IB and also amp futures and yes you are right. The brokerage fees never help especially when focused on shorter term plays. I atleast paid a few thousand in brokerage fees and even on cfd's, the slippage is so wide.

They are a killer


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 July 2016)

They may be more of a killer on shares, but not so much on CFDs or futures? AMP do $500 margins for the ES and usually around say $2.50 RT to trade it, with 1 tick being $12.50USD, literally 1 tick and you're in profit and covered brokerage? And CFDs it depends what you're trading, but usually 1 point spread and no comissions at all on indices. Doesn't get much better/cheaper.


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## Roller_1 (13 July 2016)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> They may be more of a killer on shares, but not so much on CFDs or futures? AMP do $500 margins for the ES and usually around say $2.50 RT to trade it, with 1 tick being $12.50USD, literally 1 tick and you're in profit and covered brokerage? And CFDs it depends what you're trading, but usually 1 point spread and no comissions at all on indices. Doesn't get much better/cheaper.




Yeah ok, i don't have much knowledge about futures or CFDs. I thought that CFD brokerage was fairly high? You pay for the margin loan on CFds though don't you?

But small accounts on stocks you are almost setup to fail especially in AUS the US isn't so bad.


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 July 2016)

Roller_1 said:


> Yeah ok, i don't have much knowledge about futures or CFDs. I thought that CFD brokerage was fairly high? You pay for the margin loan on CFds though don't you?
> 
> But small accounts on stocks you are almost setup to fail especially in AUS the US isn't so bad.




Depends on what you're trading and how long you're holding for, in both CFDs and futures, can up the prices a fair bit. But short term intra-day stuff is pretty reasonable  

Agreed, small account on stocks in AUS would definitely be a no go for me!


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> They may be more of a killer on shares, but not so much on CFDs or futures? AMP do $500 margins for the ES and usually around say $2.50 RT to trade it, with 1 tick being $12.50USD, literally 1 tick and you're in profit and covered brokerage? And CFDs it depends what you're trading, but usually 1 point spread and no comissions at all on indices. Doesn't get much better/cheaper.




Well on cfd I was out of the money at around $6 when I initiate a trade and then another 6$ when I exit the trade. That is on 1 lot. 2 lots = $10 = $20 RT (for MINI CL)

I cant remember exactly what the case was for amp but im sure its more than $2.50.

Atleast 5$ RT but when you do 3 or 4 trades a day, that racks up quickly lol (atleast for a small sized account).


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

I think treasuries were $2.5 RT per lot on amp .


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## darkhorse70 (13 July 2016)

That being said, it wasnt the reason for my demise. It just sped it up slightly haha


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## Roller_1 (13 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> That being said, it wasnt the reason for my demise. It just sped it up slightly haha




But still makes it extremely difficult even to break even!


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> Well on cfd I was out of the money at around $6 when I initiate a trade and then another 6$ when I exit the trade. That is on 1 lot. 2 lots = $10 = $20 RT (for MINI CL)
> 
> I cant remember exactly what the case was for amp but im sure its more than $2.50.
> 
> Atleast 5$ RT but when you do 3 or 4 trades a day, that racks up quickly lol (atleast for a small sized account).




Wow if that's the case, you were with the wrong CFD provider! I trade the DAX on CFD and there's no commissions, just the 1 point spread, which can be better than what you get in the futs market anyway. 

Whatever the commissions were on AMP, my point is with 1 tick you're in profit. But yeah not the main reason for your demise, was just replying to the previous post about needing 24% to break even. 

If you're trading didn't work out because of a small account, how on earth are you going to make property work? Surely that requires a much larger outlay to begin with?!


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## darkhorse70 (14 July 2016)

I agree Roller.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> Wow if that's the case, you were with the wrong CFD provider! I trade the DAX on CFD and there's no commissions, just the 1 point spread, which can be better than what you get in the futs market anyway.
> 
> Whatever the commissions were on AMP, my point is with 1 tick you're in profit. But yeah not the main reason for your demise, was just replying to the previous post about needing 24% to break even.
> 
> If you're trading didn't work out because of a small account, how on earth are you going to make property work? Surely that requires a much larger outlay to begin with?!




Thingy, I am with IG and yeah, the spreads were a few ticks wide. I thought it looked reasonable as I figured that if brokerage from a broker was around $6 or slightly more per RT, then i assumed that cfd would be a bit higher?
To make things worse, I remember flipping like 3 or 4 times in one trade because I felt the market was at a cross roads but was not sure which way it would turn! 

In regards to the property stuff, to be honest I wanted nothing to do with it but my dad is considering investing in property especially now that he's entering his late 50's. My dads saying stuff like the family should work as a team etc etc so i'm like well I might as well try and be useful and add value. The other part of the equation is that, if we ever do sell our house and move away from the city, then we will have a lump sum of cash and not many people at my age get to be part of some thing like that. So I need to pull my head in and educate myself  about RE. Im not trying to convince my dad to do some thing like that but it's not as irresponsible as advising my dad to invest in the markets or futures. As long as you're not a complete moron and dont have the worst luck, then property should be safe enough?!


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## Roller_1 (14 July 2016)

darkhorse70 said:


> I agree Roller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In my view property doesn't turn me on much, such a massive outlay (especially in the cities) and the time taken to gain a decent ROI can be large. In saying that it's been booming lately. If you can buy property where the rent covers all expenses it is ok.. 

I am gathering that your are mid 20s? If you had a decent account + strategy and start compounding profits now then by the time your 40 you could have a huge nest egg. That's my plan


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## darkhorse70 (14 July 2016)

Hey Roller, yeah im 24 in a few weeks. 

No decent account size and yeah it doesnt excite me much either but thats because I havent made money off it. If you generate some profit, its motivating and exciting. 

And yes, positive geared properties is the way ill be going. Less pressure financially and it wont burden me if the economy does turn slightly south. Just need to make sure youre buffered enough from risk.


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## ukulele (15 July 2016)

Real estate has many positives and negatives, just like trading. You have to decide which vehicle suits your personality, or a mixture of both (which is what I am now doing)

A bit about me, I'm 31 and own two properties, one is ok one is a dud. I'm now starting to get back into the share game and also trade a little bit. 

Here is a real life case study (this is my "good" property)
I bought the property for 370k 3 and a bit years ago, it is a duplex so has 2 units on it returning 255 a week each. Now on face value that seems like a good yield 255*2*52 / 370 = 7.17%. However let's dig deeper... On the buy side, you are not actually outlaying 370, you have to add a touch over 5% for stamp duty and closing costs. On the rent side you pay 6.6% or 7.7% rental management fee. Let's say you have 2 weeks of vacancy, which is actually really common, what is the yield then: 6.13%

Not only vacancy but then if you have to lease it out to new people, thats a two week fee (normally) and advertising costs which could be 300 bucks. Then, you have water rates, council rates and insurance, not to mention maintenance costs. Then you have tenants which are always late in paying. All of a sudden a 7xx% yielding property is now yielding 5xx%; plenty of shares in that space.

It ****s me when people talk about the yield they simply multiply the weekly rent by 52 and divide it by the advertised price, this is completely wrong, no one even counts stamp duty in calculations; especially in the media. 

Ok so now for the positive side; it is an easy block to develop and it has been revalued at 500k. I've never sold a property so let's assume selling costs of 4%. Profit = Sell - Buy (ignore holding costs for now) = 500000x.96 - 370000x1.05 = 91500. I think I had 80k deposit so i've basically doubled my money in less than 4 years, much better than my trading. Holding costs are basically 0 because it is cashflow neutral, slightly positive now with the interest rate cut. 

The good thing about property is the fact that the initial transaction cost is so high. This forces you to think long term. Shares can go up and down massive amounts quickly and on the downside that effects you mentally. On the upside you feel like a king but in all honesty that is probably just luck on your side. Property is for sure less volatile. You are also basically forced to use leverage which can be good and bad, but you are forced to work hard and pay it down. 

The bad thing about property is the same as the good thing; the fact that the initial transaction cost is so high, how long will it take for you to save 50k? Trading indices I pay a 1 point spread and AUD/USD 0.8 pips normally. No way the real estate game is that efficient

Good luck with the journey mate keep us posted.


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## darkhorse70 (19 July 2016)

Hey Ukelele, appreciate your time posting your personal experience.

You had great points. I think I would fall victim to the "hidden" costs and I think thats why my dad gets mad at me when I propose these investing ideas as he knows that its not always as good as it seems. 

I think what both trading and investing in RE have in common is understanding cash inflow and out, before you start not after. They are both risk vs reward in the end of the day.

In a perfect scenario which in this case is not too hard to ask would be to have a hand in both pies. 

The best case scenario would be to get a positive geared property that was below 200k which are still around (not sure about the positive gearing though). That way I could gain the experience of what its like to manage your own property and all the costs and stresses that come with it. After all free experience is priceless. 

I'll keep you guys posted but its a life journey so I guess it will take years to find out the end results.

Kind Regards

DH


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## tech/a (13 September 2016)

JessaFrance said:


> To me real estate seems a more reliable investment in a long term. It is not affected by economic turmoils as much as stock markets. Also short term rentals promise you decent returns - about 5-7% yields. Hiring a management company helps to avoid problems with finding new tenants . Its service costs 20−25% of the total rental revenue but the expenses will be rewarded with higher occupancy rates. So you just choose a one-bedroom apartment somewhere in the city center popular with tourists. If you consider overseas investments, look at Barcelona, it is a good option as it is a top-notch touristic destination  https://tranio.com/spain/catalonia/barcelona/




http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spain/catalonia/barcelona/investment/

Was over there a couple of years ago.
Occupancy rates were massive
Pries have fallen 70% In some parts
In others 100s of vacant property with no
Chance of sale.

In my opinion it will take 2 generations to return to any form of normality


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## Klogg (13 September 2016)

ukulele said:


> The good thing about property is the fact that the initial transaction cost is so high. This forces you to think long term. Shares can go up and down massive amounts quickly and on the downside that effects you mentally. On the upside you feel like a king but in all honesty that is probably just luck on your side. Property is for sure less volatile. You are also basically forced to use leverage which can be good and bad, but you are forced to work hard and pay it down.




In the interest of continuing the conversation, just a couple of points here:
- Where do you allow for stamp duty in that calculation?
- What about the risk for leverage?
- Shouldn't you be looking at return on the asset instead of return on equity? You can leverage up almost any asset...


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## aaronmoonpropertymanagers (22 November 2018)

Apply to work for experience in a reputable company and make your way from there. No better learning than from the best!


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