# Daniel Kertcher/Trading Pursuits - Serious or Scam?



## Matteo

I recently completed the Platinum Pursuits Tradeability Income course presented by Daniel Kertcher. I was quite apprehensive about it, and that wasn’t helped by the negative comments about Daniel and his company on this and other trading forums.  However, it is inevitable that anyone who charges thousands for their courses is going to be treated with suspicion, and the content of the course really had me interested, so I decided to part with my $3,200 and do the course. Now I hope here to provide an insightful and unbiased account of the course and its potential to fulfill its promises for anyone who may be considering undertaking it.

Firstly I must say it is disconcerting to me when you get the usual crap on their website saying that you have to get in quick because they limit the courses and if you don’t book early you will miss out, then the presenter proceeds to tell you that they have to charge these ridiculous amounts to cover the costs of holding the seminar (yeah right….). Daniel is a very good salesman, there is no doubt about that, but does his course deliver what it promises? Well, yes….and no.

The Tradeability Income course is basically all about covered calls, however instead of using shares that you already own you buy the equivalent cfd’s to cover your calls. The idea is that you sell well in the money calls (usually the strike is about 10% or so below the share price at the time of entry) so that the share price can drop considerably without it affecting your income from the trade. You then place a guaranteed stop to limit any potential loss and you have a virtually foolproof strategy. You simply deduct the trading costs from the premium you receive from selling the call and that’s your income for the month. And you can do all this in 30 minutes a month, just set and forget. Of course it’s not that simple, regardless of how much Daniel will try to tell you so.

The strategy uses US shares as they have greater liquidity and the options require only 100 shares per contract rather than the 1000 shares required for Aus contracts. As such it enables you to trade this strategy with less capital. It is done on a monthly basis where the positions are closed on option expiry date (Friday), then the next round are opened on the following Monday. So essentially we want every stock to either go up, stay the same, or go down a little. So long as at the end of the month the share price has stayed above the strike (or above the stop loss which is set slightly below the strike) we pocket the income. The risk is if we get a substantial decline like we did in May 10, and find that most or all of our trades get stopped out, we could incur a substantial loss. However this is a long term strategy and the idea is that over time it should generate a good income.

The blurb that I got before I did the course was that for the first 3 months of using this strategy (note: this is a very new strategy that only people who have done Daniels course can do as for the moment there is only 1 broker, IG Markets, who allow the strategy and they will only allow access to Daniels students) the return averaged about 12% per month, annualized to around 150% yearly return. And you can trade using as little as $5,000. Sounds impressive huh? Well, it may not be quite as impressive as it sounds. Firstly, that return was from the 3 months after the big drop in May when volatility was high and the market rallied back strongly. The past few months volatility has dropped off and I would estimate the monthly returns would be closer to 5%. Still not too bad though – 60% beats the banks doesn’t it? Well, yes, but there is a catch (and guess what, they don’t tell you this before you do the course!). That return is based on selling 8 contracts of each option (and buying 800 shares). Now, this strategy trades US shares, and some of them are valued at over $100, with many valued at $60+. Some quick maths – 800 shares in a company trading at $120 is $96,000. If the margin is 10% then you will need to put up $9,600 just for one trade. The idea is to take about 10 trades in order to spread the risk, so if the average price is ,say, $60 and the average margin is 7.5% (some stocks will require 5%, some 10%), then the amount you will need to buy 800 shares of each is $36,000. So unless you have a bank of about $36,000, don’t expect to get the returns they are spruiking. But wait! Guess what? There’s something else they forgot to tell us before doing the course. Those returns are assuming that you invest your entire bank into the trades. But you can’t do that, because you need a buffer in case the shares drop and your margin requirements increase. Daniel recommends investing no more than 40% of your bank. So now, in order to make the sort of money you thought you were going to make you need a bank of $90,000. You can trade with less and still make money, but can you trade with $5,000? No way! I would say the minimum bank you need is $20,000 in order to make it worthwhile. The problem is that once you go below the 800 shares the costs of the trade such as commissions etc eat a bigger hole into the income from the call. And here’s the other thing, those returns don’t include guaranteed stop losses. Daniel doesn’t use them (even though they are one of the big selling points of the course), and if he did the returns would be considerably less. In fact, trading on a bank of $20,000 with the current returns, using a stop loss will turn most trades into a loss, making them pointless to enter. 

So, things aren’t looking quite as rosy now. I have been trading this strategy now for 2 months on a $20k bank and have so far only entered 5 trades with an avg return of about $50 per trade. I have made about $250. I have a long way to go to recoup my money invested with Daniel, however I have made money so far. If I had a $100k bank though I could have entered more trades and got better returns, and would probably have already recouped my money. In order to make this strategy more viable for those with a small bank there needs to be more volatility in the market to improve the returns. However that of course comes with extra risk, and without guaranteed stops then one bad trade that gaps well below your stop could significantly impact on your profits and turn your month into a losing one. With increased returns it may then become viable to place guar stops, but of course your returns will be heavily reduced. I was quite nervous when one of my stocks reported a couple of days ago. It was well above my strike, but a gap down of, say, 25% (which it had done not long before) would have well and truly wiped out any profits I had already made. It did gap down about 8%, but thankfully stayed above my stop and then proceeded to go up 15% the next day! 

Also, the strategy sounds simple, but beginners will find it very tricky to get to grips with. I have been trading for 8 years and still found it quite nerve-wracking the first time trying to get the returns right. A small move in the share price can turn a reasonable return into a poor one if the option price doesn’t move as well, so you need to be on the ball. You also need to be checking the trades every day because if something goes wrong you have to attend to it. If you get stopped out you need to decide whether to buy back the option or let it go, or possibly purchase another cfd.  Also, you need to subscribe to their income report which is about $450 per year (first 4 months free) and you have to purchase MarketAnalyst software for $888 per year because it has the calculator for the covered calls so you can see the return you are getting. They also forgot to tell us about that……

So, there’s quite a few gripes. On the positive side, the support from PP is excellent. I have had queries which have been answered in depth, and the videos and info on the website are very good. Daniel also appears to be very knowledgeable on the subject and teaches it well. Actually I have simply bought a couple of the cfd’s (of trades they have recommended) rather than doing the covered calls and have made money this way instead when the income returns have not been worthwhile and I have thought the chart looks strong. In fact, if you look at the trades they have recommended over the past few months, if you had just bought all the cfd’s and placed guaranteed stops at 10% away (or even if you just put in normal stops) you would have made a killing with a good exit strategy. Of course that’s not what this strategy is about, but it’s something that I will be doing if the chart looks good as the potential returns are much greater than those from the income strategy. So I must say that so far their research and recommendations have been very good, though the market has been very accommodating. 

Bottom line:  I don’t think what Daniel is promoting is a scam. However I do think there are some serious misrepresentations and I would not be surprised if there were a number of disgruntled people out there. And the truth is that no matter how good a strategy is, probably only 10% of people will make good money from it regardless. Do I regret doing the course? No. As a result of doing the course I have opened myself up to the US market which I have never traded before, and so far the trades I have made have paid off a fair bit of the course costs. With a larger bank the strategy would be much more attractive, so it is something that I believe will reward me down the track. Would I recommend it to a friend? Probably not, unless they had a large bank to invest and had the right mindset to approach it with. It certainly has the potential to be quite lucrative for the right person.

Sorry to be so longwinded, but hopefully this may help someone make an informed decision before deciding to attend the course. Cheers.


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## tech/a

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> I have been trading for 8 years




So why on earth are you paying someone to do a course?
Surely after 8 yrs you have your own method down pat and are profitable?

If you really must trade it wait for volatility to return --- until then trade differently.


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## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> Now I hope here to provide an insightful and unbiased account of the course and its potential to fulfill its promises for anyone who may be considering undertaking it.




Very good summary. Indeed it was unbiased. Thank you. 

Guaranteed stops probably get more expensive when volatility increases so the use of them as part of the strategy is kind of pointless. In fact, if you think from IG Markets' perspective on how they hedge your guaranteed stops, you will realise that they probably do some oppie trade to square you off - which means you have just arbitraged nothing and paid a lot of brokerage and fees.

But without using them you are leveraging your account at CFD multiples and really is just asking for trouble in the long term.

I can see this strategy suits the need of IG more than the trader!


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## IFocus

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> so I decided to part with my $3,200 and do the course.  Cheers.




The price is really the outrageous part of this type of so called education (I paid similar amounts years ago to snake oil types)

And its not that they don't have anything to offer but its the whole trip of pulling in punters who like you say only a very small % will profit in the markets and most likely not using the sold trading scheme.

Also like you say there is the selling of products along the way to at special reduced prices just for you.

Last comment is that using covered calls is great for brokers.


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## Matteo

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



tech/a said:


> So why on earth are you paying someone to do a course?
> Surely after 8 yrs you have your own method down pat and are profitable?




Really? Is that the best you can offer? I take a lot of time to give an unbiased account of a course so that people can make an informed decision, and the best you can do is take a pot shot at my decision to take the course? Blimey! The fact is plenty of people will consider taking the course, and hopefully some of them will read this and then have a better understanding of what the strategy involves and whether it is for them or not. This post is not about me!!

Whether or not I am successful with my trading is irrelevent. Do you really think that the worlds most successful traders just have one strategy? The strategy offered by Daniel is completely different to anything that I currently do, and there is great appeal in having a more passive strategy that can be pretty much set and forget (though as I pointed out that's not really the case). Before this course had even been created I had thought that writing calls on cfd's would be a really good strategy, but thought it was not possible. When I heard about the course I was really interested, and the fact is the only way to be able to use the strategy was to do the course (which meant forking out the $$$'s). I don't like spending that sort of money on a course but I felt on this occasion it was justifiable. And I don't regret it even though I am disappointed with some of the details that were left out of the introductory seminar and promotional material. People have different reasons for doing things, and it's really not your place to question my motives for doing the course.

As I said before, this can still be a very good strategy for the right person. If I was trading a $100k bank there is a fair chance I would have recouped most if not all of the costs of the course already in only 2 months and that in a market not really conducive to good returns. That's not bad at all, however only time will tell how successful it is over the long term. But traders with smaller accounts, and inexperienced traders, need to think carefully whether it is for them.

Cheers.


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## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> As I said before, this can still be a very good strategy for the right person. If I was trading a $100k bank there is a fair chance I would have recouped most if not all of the costs of the course already in only 2 months and that in a market not really conducive to good returns. That's not bad at all, however only time will tell how successful it is over the long term. But traders with smaller accounts, and inexperienced traders, need to think carefully whether it is for them.
> 
> Cheers.




I doubt it. Asit stands, it is still picking up pennies in front of a steam roller and the cost of the guaranteed stop removes any positive expectancy.

As with all option trades, there is a time to put them on and a time not to, depending on volatility.


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## So_Cynical

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> The fact is plenty of people will consider taking the course, and hopefully some of them will read this and then have a better understanding of what the strategy involves and whether it is for them or not.




I've only just realised that the type of people looking to do this type of course are mostly, probably the sort of people who shouldn't be wasting money on any sort of education...im thinking that they have either failed as investors/traders and or feel overwhelmed by the reality of direct investment/trading.

I mean anyone can be taught how to play golf but no amount of education is going to make anyone a Tiger Woods or for that matter a Matt McQuillan (World Ranking 1000)



Matteo said:


> Whether or not I am successful with my trading is irrelevent. Do you really think that the worlds most successful traders just have one strategy? The strategy offered by Daniel is completely different to anything that I currently do.




Yes i would of thought that the vast majority of successful traders/investors would have just one strategy, something along the lines of buy XYZ and then sell it for more than you paid for it....personally i have a strategy that's making me money so why wouldn't i just keep following it, i cant see why anyone with a winning strategy would want another one.


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## Market Depth

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

What about Currency risk, if we are talking longer term,in trading this technique? Or am I missing something?


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## tech/a

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



So_Cynical said:


> I've only just realised that the type of people looking to do this type of course are mostly, probably the sort of people who shouldn't be wasting money on any sort of education...im thinking that they have either failed as investors/traders and or feel overwhelmed by the reality of direct investment/trading.
> 
> I mean anyone can be taught how to play golf but no amount of education is going to make anyone a Tiger Woods or for that matter a Matt McQuillan (World Ranking 1000)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes i would of thought that the vast majority of successful traders/investors would have just one strategy, something along the lines of buy XYZ and then sell it for more than you paid for it....personally i have a strategy that's making me money so why wouldn't i just keep following it, i cant see why anyone with a winning strategy would want another one.




*MATTEO*

So Cynical has summed up my thoughts and saved me a lot of typing.
Wayne's used a sledge hammer to drive home the point.
Thanks.


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## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> Do you really think that the worlds most successful traders just have one strategy?






So_Cynical said:


> I mean anyone can be taught how to play golf but no amount of education is going to make anyone a Tiger Woods or for that matter a Matt McQuillan (World Ranking 1000)
> 
> Yes i would of thought that the vast majority of successful traders/investors would have just one strategy, something along the lines of buy XYZ and then sell it for more than you paid for it....personally i have a strategy that's making me money so why wouldn't i just keep following it, i cant see why anyone with a winning strategy would want another one.




I personally have 4 strategies going - it creates a relatively smoother equity curve and for full time trader relying on trading income it is very important imo to have multiple strategies. 

This is my monthly return for the last 6 months. Account 1 runs 3 of my strategies and account 2 runs the 4th one. Both accounts are similar size.




See how the average of two account resulted in a standard deviation of only 1.41% as opposed to 4.04% and 4.19% for the two individual accounts. Smaller standard deviation = smoother equity curve = many benefits to trading psychology.


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## tech/a

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

SKC

Nice returns!
41% ish
From my calcs to trade full time you would need a minimum of $300k to run this comfortably allowing for tax and generally living.
About right?
Obviously $500k + and its a snap!


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## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> I doubt it. Asit stands, it is still picking up pennies in front of a steam roller and the cost of the guaranteed stop removes any positive expectancy.
> 
> As with all option trades, *there is a time to put them on and a time not to, depending on volatility*.




That says it all really.  But that takes time and effort to learn the greeks, synthetics and other stuff.  I have heard some option "educators" say that you don't need to know about those things.

Maybe my better half could start weekend flying courses.  "How to learn to fly in a weekend".  Just show people how successful others have been and never mind about all the technical stuff...

Sometimes a little knowledge can be very dangerous.


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## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sails said:


> That says it all really.  But that takes time and effort to learn the greeks, synthetics and other stuff.  I have heard some option "educators" say that you don't need to know about those things.
> 
> Maybe my better half could start weekend flying courses.  "How to learn to fly in a weekend".  Just show people how successful others have been and never mind about all the technical stuff...
> 
> *Sometimes a little knowledge can be very dangerous*.




Yes.

But the Greeks take time to grasp properly... at least for booze addled old farts like me .

For OP, to evaluate this properly, I would suggest getting a grasp of volatility as it relates to option pricing, standard deviation... and perhaps a little bit about kurtosis to understand why this Kertcher "strategy" is a loser.

Then move on to the other Greeks to understand options fully.


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## So_Cynical

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skc said:


> I personally have 4 strategies going - it creates a relatively smoother equity curve and for full time trader relying on trading income it is very important imo to have multiple strategies.




Well i knew someone would post something along these lines and that's why i said "vast majority" because i know some people have a multi tasking type of brain and are/will be comfortable with multiple strategy's...myself ive got enough on my plate with 10 open positions to manage and 1 broad strategy.


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## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



tech/a said:


> SKC
> 
> Nice returns!
> 41% ish
> From my calcs to trade full time you would need a minimum of $300k to run this comfortably allowing for tax and generally living.
> About right?
> Obviously $500k + and its a snap!




Actually the return is only 20 ish percent. The return % listed is on each account, so the total return across all capital deployed is only 20 ish percent.

Thankfully my total capital is over $1B so a 20% return in 6 month is just enough to live off. :



So_Cynical said:


> Well i knew someone would post something along these lines and that's why i said "vast majority" because i know some people have a multi tasking type of brain and are/will be comfortable with multiple strategy's...myself ive got enough on my plate with 10 open positions to manage and 1 broad strategy.




As far as I am aware you are not a full time trader. So stick to what you know works best. As a full time trader who isn't really doing intra-day trading - I get pretty bored if I am not doing more than 3 things at a time!


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## Julia

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skc said:


> Thankfully my total capital is over $1B so a 20% return in 6 month is just enough to live off. :



Is that American billion or English billion, i.e. a million million, or a thousand million?

Presumably you regularly appear on the Australian "Rich List"?


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## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Julia said:


> Is that American billion or English billion, i.e. a million million, or a thousand million?
> 
> Presumably you regularly appear on the Australian "Rich List"?




Yes. A million million. Although I did not specify any currency. 

I am reasonably sure that my capital is in excess of $1B in at least the ZWD currency.


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## MarkMetz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The strategy is all about brokerage.
Buying $400,000 stock on $36,000 margin means you have to pay brokerage on $400,000 of stock plus IG charge borrowing cost on the value of the stock on a daily basis.
Plus commission or spread on the call option
Plus cost of closing.

Buy stock sell call = sell put

Buy BHP @ $40 is $400 brokerage. Sell $36 in the money call
30 day funding cost = about $2,200. Close brokerage is also $400.

The same strategy is to sell a $36 Put. Save $3,000. Same pay off.


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## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



MarkMetz said:


> The strategy is all about brokerage.
> Buying $400,000 stock on $36,000 margin means you have to pay brokerage on $400,000 of stock plus IG charge borrowing cost on the value of the stock on a daily basis.
> Plus commission or spread on the call option
> Plus cost of closing.
> 
> Buy stock sell call = sell put
> 
> Buy BHP @ $40 is $400 brokerage. Sell $36 in the money call
> 30 day funding cost = about $2,200. Close brokerage is also $400.
> 
> The same strategy is to sell a $36 Put. Save $3,000. Same pay off.





Ahh but the educators like to complicate things a little. Perhaps it makes them look clever...

Funny thing is that some of them will point out the dangers of naked puts but seem to be oblivious that the covered call poses a similar payoff.

It's the brokers that prefer covered calls as they pose no risk to the broker.  If price goes down, the customer takes all the risk with his shares.

If the price goes down with a naked put, margins keep increasing and can make a broker nervous.  Although, some Oz brokers will only allow fully cash covered naked puts so the risk to them is then comparable to the covered call.


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## MarkMetz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sails said:


> Ahh but the educators like to complicate things a little. Perhaps it makes them look clever...
> 
> Funny thing is that some of them will point out the dangers of naked puts but seem to be oblivious that the covered call poses a similar payoff.
> 
> It's the brokers that prefer covered calls as they pose no risk to the broker.  If price goes down, the customer takes all the risk with his shares.
> 
> If the price goes down with a naked put, margins keep increasing and can make a broker nervous.  Although, some Oz brokers will only allow fully cash covered naked puts so the risk to them is then comparable to the covered call.




But in this case the margin risk is the same because you are borrowing $400,000 (you dont get interest on your deposit with IG, I think).

The risk is BHP going from $40 to $36.

If BHP goes to $36, IG will want at least another 5% ($20,000).

The margin of an at-the-money February BHP Put is less than 6%.

Both have 100% downside risk.


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## thotri

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> and you have to purchase MarketAnalyst software for $888 per year because it has the calculator for the covered calls so you can see the return you are getting. They also forgot to tell us about that……




Thank you for this very useful review. I'm currently considering this course and am actually quite surprised that you HAVE TO purchase the MarketAnalyst tool. You would think that you can calculate the returns yourself. 

What happens if you don't pay the $888 per year - don't they give you access to the website?

Cheers


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## 1337trader

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks for the review. Earlier when I started, I got sucked into one of those couple of grand courses too(not Kertcher one but it's similar). Basically any company that gives you a 2hour "educational event"  for "free" at some fancy hotel meeting room are to be avoided.  I learnt very little from the course, but at least had the costly lesson of staying far from this guys.

Later I did a course with someone who dosn't hold seminars or advertise everywhere, only mentors personally and I've been trading positively ever since. 

I won't post who I did it with or this may be considered advertising/promotional/spam so please don't ask.


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## superpom

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi 

A big thank you to Matteo. I did the Daniel Kertcher introductory this week.I have been trading ASX options for several years so found most of the 2 hrs pretty basic but when he brought together the CFD/Covered call/Guaranteed stop loss, I was quite enthused.
The current price of the 3 day seminar is $3990 which I thought a bit steep but before I committed I decided to do a bit more research and found this forum.
If he had been totally up front I may have well signed up but to find out that he trades without a guaranteed stop loss which was one of the main planks in his strategy decided me against it.He also said that a $20k starting bank would give a fair return.
Thanks again for saving me a few thousand.


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## Zorbaletto

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> Sorry to be so longwinded, but hopefully this may help someone make an informed decision before deciding to attend the course. Cheers.




Thank you SO much for taking the time to give us your thoughts on the Daniel Kertcher training.  We went to the 2 hour seminar yesterday and signed up to do the course….after googling him, and then reading your entry here, we are going to exercise the 7-day cooling off period and not part with $3990 (plus $600 for partner to come) to do the course. 

We are not experienced traders - I have a few shares that I've had for ages…waiting for them to go up…and that's about it.  So I don't think that his course would be good for us to do after reading your comments.  I work in PR and deal with words, not numbers!  I'm no good at this sort of thing and thought initially that doing a training course would be useful.  Doesn't even sound very profitable unless you take risks and not use guaranteed stops, or have a large bank to invest with… hardly worth it!

Despite some other inconsiderate types that replied to your post, I can tell you that it was worth doing!  You have helped one person - so thank YOU!  

(I had to go to the effort to register in order to post a comment to say thanks! Why can't guests just comment??)


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## measey

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks Matteo,

I also went to the 2 hour seminar tonight.  Your information helped me a lot, and it was very detailed.

It's amazing how much these guys want to charge for this information, as good as it sounds.

Cheers !!

- M


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## jyavenard

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I attended the free seminar yesterday out of curiosity.

he is a very good salesman that's for sure.

At no time did he suggest not to use the guaranteed stop loss and its cost was included in the net profit calculation.

The cost for the guaranteed stop loss was 0.3%..

The figured showed an average *net* return over the past 12 months of 8.5% per month. Sounds amazing ...

Covered calls with CFDs he said was a strategy that has only been possible for one year; is available only through one broker and that's if you go through him.

I talked to a guy there who had been trading following this strategy since January (not part of the whole shebang, genuine guy) and he confirmed similar returns on his $20,000 bank.

So is it really too good to be true? Can we see such kind of return with very good stop loss using covered calls with CFDs?

Thanks
JY


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## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



jyavenard said:


> I attended the free seminar yesterday out of curiosity.
> 
> he is a very good salesman that's for sure.
> 
> At no time did he suggest not to use the guaranteed stop loss and its cost was included in the net profit calculation.
> 
> The cost for the guaranteed stop loss was 0.3%..
> 
> The figured showed an average *net* return over the past 12 months of 8.5% per month. Sounds amazing ...
> 
> Covered calls with CFDs he said was a strategy that has only been possible for one year; is available only through one broker and that's if you go through him.
> 
> I talked to a guy there who had been trading following this strategy since January (not part of the whole shebang, genuine guy) and he confirmed similar returns on his $20,000 bank.
> 
> So is it really too good to be true? Can we see such kind of return with very good stop loss using covered calls with CFDs?
> 
> Thanks
> JY




It's just a variation on the 4% per month covered call claim, only leveraged.

Everything works really well... until it doesn't.

The other variation on this theme is credit spreads.

There is nothing "inherently" wrong with the strategy providing you have your risk/reward/probabilities worked out. The probability part is the crunch in all these income collection strategies.

It may be a cliche', but you are picking up pennies in front of a steam roller.

The guaranteed stop is a false sense of security and you need to understand vega and delta properly as well as theta to understand why.


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## DanielKertcher

*Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*

I've read the post by Matteo about the Trading Pursuits TradeAbility Income course presented by myself, Daniel Kertcher. 

I'd like to respond to his post. I thank Matteo for his feedback, and I’m sorry that he feels some things were misrepresented in my presentation (although he says he doesn't regret doing my course, is trading profitably due to the information we taught him, and had already made back a fair bit of the course costs). 

I think his criticisms of the preview presentation and the course fall more into the category of misunderstandings than misrepresentations, as I will seek to explain now…  Please note that I teach the entire strategy over 3 days, and there is only so much you can communicate of it in the free 2 hour seminar. 

*1.	Minimum number of options contracts and Brokerage costs*

Matteo states that the strategy requires a minimum of 8 options contracts and 800 CFDs to be traded per trade. This is not true. 

There is no minimum number of options contracts for Trading Pursuits clients on the options. There is for other clients using the broker and that minimum number is 5 contracts.

So where does this comment from Matteo come from? In the average returns we report to clients, we do make some assumptions that try to be representative of the average client account. Clients’ actual returns will vary based on how they choose to trade, according to their own risk management decisions. 

It is completely common and necessary to report average historical returns based on assumptions about what an average client is likely to do. In our assumptions we use 8 contracts as the basis. That’s because some clients have large sums to invest, and some don't, and we estimate 8 contracts represents a typical account.

Matteo also says that if you trade less than that the brokerage commissions eat up the returns. 

As explained in the preview seminar, there are costs for brokerage.  These costs were clearly listed, as $0.02 per share for the CFD, $0.05 per share for the options, LIBOR + 2.5% for the interest and 0.3% of the value of the shares for the guaranteed stop loss. There is a minimum of $15 per transaction on the share CFDs.  

It’s true that because of the minimum $15 per transaction fee on the CFDs, it is more cost effective in terms of brokerage to do more than one options contract and 100 shares per trade. However, I don’t think most people would view a $15 fee as a major obstacle to their investing success.

*2.	The Volatility of the Market*

Matteo says that a more realistic expectation of returns from this strategy would be about 5% per month, or 60% per annum. I agree with that, and I did state that the volatility levels we were seeing at the time were unlikely to continue.

I don’t have a crystal ball, and I don’t promise anything about the future. But I do show my clients what we are doing in the markets every month, and we put our money where our mouth is – every trade we report on has our own real money riding on it. 

5% per month is close to the average we have achieved over the last 12 months. As for what the future holds, it could be better or worse. It’s hard to say because past returns are not indicative of future performance. 

The market volatility changes throughout the year. I explained how during periods of higher volatility, the option premiums are greater, hence the returns are greater. We saw that recently in fact. With the increased volatility due to the Japanese disaster, the option premiums increased substantially. With the realisation that the Nuclear threat was no longer as great, the market volatility subsided, as did the option premiums.

What this means is that throughout the year as we write options, some months will provide greater returns than other months.  

Also, as you learn how to write options, you will see that you can choose which strike price you write. Writing a higher strike price for covered calls will result in greater returns, at the expense of greater risk. In our Monthly Income Report, we show which trades that we ourselves are writing. We always take a very conservative approach, as we have more than 1,500 people reading that report every month.

You however, may choose to write a higher strike price if you are comfortable with the strategy and the risk. Everyone has a different risk/reward appetite. In the course, I teach how the strategy works, and how you can, based on your experience, choose to alter your risk/reward profile with the strategy.

In our reports, we do not tell our clients what to do. We tell them what we are doing.  It is our job to explain to clients exactly how it all works, how they can choose their own risk/reward profile, and then show them exactly what we are doing.

*3.	The Cash Required to Trade*

The stock prices on the CFDs we trade are not typically valued at over $100. The average stock price on trades we did for the 12 months from May 2010 to April 2011 was actually about $62. Sure some of them can be $100, or maybe even a bit more, but that is not typical. Many are less than the average of $62.

Matteo correctly calculates that with options at 100 shares per contract, 8 options contracts would mean buying 800 CFDs to cover the options. But as I mentioned before, it’s not necessary to trade 8 contracts – it’s possible just to trade 1 contract.  Matteo then comments that at a 10% CFD margin requirement on shares, at $120 per share this would require a margin amount of $9,600. When in fact, the true average of $62 per share would require a margin amount of just $620 for one contract and 100 shares (and it is possible for our clients to trade just one contract). For greater numbers of contracts, the average of $62 per share would require $3,100 in margin for 5 contracts and $6,200 for 10 contracts. 

Then Matteo gets on to the point about diversification. If trading one contract per trade, the average $62 per share would allow diversification across 10 different trades for about $6,200 margin. 

But, in reality, we don’t always trade 10 different positions. Our average each month is more like 5 or 6 different trades. So, only an average of between $3,100 to $3,720 in margin would be required to diversify across trades each month. Note that I speak in averages here – it will of course vary from month to month depending on the actual share prices and the number of different trades.

In my preview seminar, I did explain that it is important when starting out not to engage all of your capital on the trades. I stated that we suggest a maximum of 40%  of total trading capital be engaged on the CFDs.

That’s just what we suggest as a maximum. Some people do more than that, some less, based on their own risk profiles. It’s not our job to make investment decisions for our clients – we just teach the strategy, explain the risks and potential rewards, and then the client, armed with that information, needs to make their own decisions. Our online report of all the trades we are doing can assist in making those decisions.

If an average month requires no more than $3,100 in margin, and that represents no more than 40% of the total account, the total account value would be $7,750. In the FAQs on our website we suggest that $10K to $20K would be needed to trade this strategy effectively. It could be done with less if the client chose not to trade every trade we report on. This would not necessarily affect returns, but it would mean slightly greater risk due to less diversification. I would say certainly an account of no less than $5K would be necessary… and if you don’t have that, and the course fee is a struggle, then you are probably not in a position to be investing this way. As Matteo states, it's designed to be a long term strategy – you learn it once, and as your savings and income grow, so could your account. 

*4.	Guaranteed Stop losses*

In the preview seminar, I explained how guaranteed stop losses come at a price (0.3% of the value of the shares). I ask the audience who would be prepared to give up some of their profit in order to have the guarantee of the stop loss. The audience usually unanimously agrees that they would. That's understandable, given they have just learned the strategy and that they want to protect their downside risk.

At the course I explain how once you understand the strategy in its entirety you may not feel the need to engage a guaranteed stop. At Trading Pursuits we only use guaranteed stops sometimes, but we do use them when we feel the downside risk level warrants it. 

I also explained that the guaranteed stop is only better than a regular stop if the stock gaps over the stop loss. Considering that we use many different risk management techniques together in concert with each other, including diversification, money management, writing the options deep in the money, engaging only a portion of our capital, etc., then the cost of the guaranteed stop loss in the context of the actual risk can sometimes be an overkill.  

When the market is more volatile, the returns are higher but the downside risk is also greater, and it makes more sense to use the guaranteed stop loss – partly because we can afford to as we receive more income, and partly because the markets are more volatile and the risks are greater.

*5.	Market Analyst*

The Market Analyst software is not included in the cost of the course, that's true - it's an optional purchase. People may already have charting software and may not want or need the more advanced features of this software. Calculating trade profitability for this strategy is not complex and does not require specialised software. We now have a calculator in our report to help clients identify if the trade is worth entering at the time they are looking at it, so it is not necessary to buy Market Analyst in order to calculate the profit potential of a trade.

Regards,
Daniel


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



DanielKertcher said:


> Matteo says that a more realistic expectation of returns from this strategy would be about 5% per month, or 60% per annum. I agree with that, and I did state that the volatility levels we were seeing at the time were unlikely to continue.
> 
> I don’t have a crystal ball, and I don’t promise anything about the future. But I do show my clients what we are doing in the markets every month, and we put our money where our mouth is – every trade we report on has our own real money riding on it.
> 
> 5% per month is close to the average we have achieved over the last 12 months. As for what the future holds, it could be better or worse. It’s hard to say because past returns are not indicative of future performance.




60% pa for roughly how many years? If you have a decent track record for a few years why are you selling this to retail rather than insto?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



DanielKertcher said:


> ...Regards,
> Daniel




Daniel

Regarding the average 5% per month profit;

1/ What is the the profit on? Capital employed of all available capital.

2/ Can you reasonably prove this to be a fair representation of your returns?

3/ Do you use a timing model for entries or just expiry to expiry?


----------



## IFocus

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



skyQuake said:


> 60% pa for roughly how many years? If you have a decent track record for a few years why are you selling this to retail rather than insto?




I would like to see ASIC to audit those claims.............


----------



## jyavenard

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



wayneL said:


> Daniel
> 
> Regarding the average 5% per month profit;
> 
> 1/ What is the the profit on? Capital employed of all available capital.




This was answered during the 2hours preview: it is of the amount actually invested; not your bank (so say on 40% of the capital employed)



> 2/ Can you reasonably prove this to be a fair representation of your returns?




This was provided with details over the past 12 months transactions. Their returned averaged 8.5% IRC..


----------



## sails

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



jyavenard said:


> This was answered during the 2hours preview: it is of the amount actually invested; not your bank (so say on 40% of the capital employed)
> 
> This was provided with details over the past 12 months transactions. Their returned averaged 8.5% IRC..




Sorry to be skeptical, but how do you know if there were many more trades taken that didn't do so well, and the details provided were of selected underlying/s that did exceptionally well with the process?

I ask because I initially got into options due to covered calls and thought we could be millionaires in a short time by heavily leveraging with margin lending.  Serious. I suppose CFDs are now promoted to acheive the same risky heavy leveraging.

It didn't take me long to realise the real winners were the boutique brokers who were charging astronomical (imo) fees for every stock trade and this was being shared with the seminar company to the best of my knowledge. 

If the underlying blobs along nicely in a sideways range, the strategy would do OK.  But fast moves down are the biggest danger.  So then what do you do? Yes, there are some strategies, but they all have their trade-offs.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



jyavenard said:


> This was answered during the 2hours preview: it is of the amount actually invested; not your bank (so say on 40% of the capital employed)




This is not the correct way to measure performance then. If you have 100k, You want a return on 100k. Therefore capital employed is not really relevant for the return, it is merely a reflection of leverage.

So we are now saying that the average 5% per month is actually 2% per month on capital.



> This was provided with details over the past 12 months transactions. Their returned averaged 8.5% IRC..




What details?

Anyone can manufacture details. What is required is reasonable proof of these returns. Forgive us for the cynicism, but there are plenty of shonks out there prepared to lie about their returns.

As IFocus points out, some sort of audit process would confirm these results.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The thing to remember with options is that they are priced, whether ITM OTM or ATM, theoretically so that there is no statistical advantage in any one position. Higher probabiltiy positions such as ITM CCs (or OTM naked puts) have higher risk relative to profit.

IOW losses will be bigger than profits. A guaranteed stop does not actually prevent this because of the factors I mentioned before.

Like straight share trading, profit depends on some sort of trading edge via timely entries and exits and risk control.

Regarding guaranteed stops - think like an actuary for a moment, because that's what the CFD companies do. Is the premium worth the extra safety? If the CFD compnay is comfortable with the extra premium, then there is a margin in it for them. They are making enough extra to cover their risk.

This means that the punter is paying over the odds for the guaranteed stop. Over the long term you fall further and further behind in extra commission costs. You are better off without it, over the long term.

That said, there is no advantage in this CFD + short call strategy over a straight out short put of the same strike and expiry. It is still available on margin, fees are less and statistically, you are better off without the guaranteed stop.

The $64,000,000 question then, is are you have selling a portfolio of OTM short puts, because synthetically that is exactly what you have.


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ...is are you have selling a portfolio of OTM short puts, because synthetically that is exactly what you have.




You know, I've found this statement, an instant thread killer :


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> You know, I've found this statement, an instant thread killer :




Geez it hardly makes sense though. I'll try again:

The $64,000,000 question then, is are you *happy* selling a portfolio of OTM short puts, because synthetically that is exactly what you have.

Sorry for killing the thread.


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Sorry for killing the thread.




Speak in softer tongues, 
Thou hath uttered words fit to dispel the devil himself!!!

"otm put","synthetic"

The fool doth think him be wise, 
but a wise man knows himself to be a fool
Who, then is the fool?
Even the devil can cite scripture for his purpose

"takes 20-30 minutes per month","renting shares on steroids"

What ho?! Steriods?
Know'st thou cannot make the beast with two backs?
Thy hath no desire to be crook-backed
Nothing can come of nothing

Why, would you sell into upward curvature of gamma? 
There's nothing new about the strategy, other than means of execution and margin.

Farewell, fair cruelty
Doth the last, thy will speak of this subject


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Farewell, fair cruelty
> Doth the last, thy will speak of this subject




ROTFL Mazza. 

Also apparently, the last Mr Kertcher will speak of this subject. 

Hmmmm. :batman:


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



IFocus said:


> I would like to see ASIC to audit those claims.............




IF 

I receive some spam from a US option guy who is flogging a monthly advisory service. It is fairly reasonably priced, but make the claim that he has made 88% in his own account in the 2010 calendar year.

Proof? He has put out a video showing his actual TOS account for the period, with some steps made to show he is not scamming it.

I can respect this. We all can.

It would be a pretty simple matter for DK to do something along the same lines. In doing so, he could pretty much blow the doubters out of the water.

The question then becomes - why doesn't he?


----------



## IFocus

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



wayneL said:


> IF
> 
> I receive some spam from a US option guy who is flogging a monthly advisory service. It is fairly reasonably priced, but make the claim that he has made 88% in his own account in the 2010 calendar year.
> 
> Proof? He has put out a video showing his actual TOS account for the period, with some steps made to show he is not scamming it.
> 
> I can respect this. We all can.
> 
> It would be a pretty simple matter for DK to do something along the same lines. In doing so, he could pretty much blow the doubters out of the water.
> 
> The question then becomes - why doesn't he?




There are few examples of so called educator / traders who make quite large claims of successful trading methods or systems publicly standing up to any serious scrutiny. 

Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns if I cherry  pick time periods / my results.

I think anyone selling should be made to publish audited results to prove their claims as the claims are often attached to the amount charged for the courses which is enviably excessive by any measure.

A trader I know personally who has made staggering returns for some time started to run courses but stopped as it interfered with her trading which was where she made her real returns.

I have yet to meet anyone who became a successful *long term trader* using any market instrument / method that came out of a trading course, none, zilsh, nada.........  

Enough said.


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## skyQuake

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*

Sadly, too many punters see only this:



IFocus said:


> ..Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns...




Then its..


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums*



IFocus said:


> There are few examples of so called educator / traders who make quite large claims of successful trading methods or systems publicly standing up to any serious scrutiny.
> 
> Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns if I cherry  pick time periods / my results.
> 
> I think anyone selling should be made to publish audited results to prove their claims as the claims are often attached to the amount charged for the courses which is enviably excessive by any measure.
> 
> A trader I know personally who has made staggering returns for some time started to run courses but stopped as it interfered with her trading which was where she made her real returns.
> 
> I have yet to meet anyone who became a successful *long term trader* using any market instrument / method that came out of a trading course, none, zilsh, nada.........
> 
> Enough said.




With options it's not that difficult to get a 90% win rate, just write WTFOTM options at statistically favourable points. 

It's the size of the losses that is the rub. High probability trades unfortunately have low returns with commensurately higher risk to return.

eg you can win $1 nine times, but if you lose $9 on the tenth you only break even. Over $9 and obviously you're behind. 

People like Kertcher shout out "stop loss". Sure you can stop those huge losses, but it must be remembered that your win rate then reduces ergo greater quantities of losses

There is no inherent edge whatsoever in any of these strategies in and of themselves, stop loss or no stop loss that's how options are actually priced. The edge must come from somewhere else.

This comes from some sort of quantitive, fundamental or technical analysis which delivers positive expectancy.

I agree that precise claims require precise proof, though policing it in a borderless Internet could be difficult.


----------



## detoxangel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I agree with Matteo's comments fully.  I have recently attended Daniel's Workshop at the Gold Coast and I found the $3,990 to be extremely expensive!  The concept I don't get is that Daniel is trying to help others to succeed in wealth creation which is all very nice, but how about the people who don't have much money to start with and wish to earn an income.  You first have to pay your way to get to the course and in my case this was flying from Adelaide to the Gold Coast plus accommodation.  Once you are there you realise that you need at least $20,000 to make a start at earning any income.

The workshop provides information and tools on how to trade, but if you are completely new to the concept of trading it is going to take a long time once you get home to become familiar with what was explained at the workshop.

If I were to be genuine about helping others I would make the course more affordable to give people the opportunity to learn the concept and then have some money to work with.  I found day two to be promoting further courses at a cost of $20,000.00 to be out of this world!  It felt like in this course I can only cover so much, but if you want to make big dollars you will have to attend my future courses which will cost $20,000.  This price range is totally out of my league which will mean that I will have to take a lot longer to get where I want to go.

On the positive side, I have come home and sold the shares that I have been sitting on for the past 15years and I will now let them work for me!  I am now commited to learning more about trading but I will find other avenues to learn from where it won't cost me money to learn

This was an expensive lesson I learnt


----------



## Sir Gordon Gecko

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Matteo
Sorry to be so longwinded, but hopefully this may help someone make an informed decision before deciding to attend the course. Cheers.[/QUOTE]

Nice post Matteo, i just went to the FREE W/E seminar, thanks for keeping these guys honest & putting some balance out there, it's alwasy the stuff they don't tell you about thet nails you, he is a likable guy on stage, which makes his job easier esp with a carrot that size, anyway for what it's worth even i after 5 yrs of trading options, I  couldn't keep up with the strategy, as the PP slides were changing faster than an option board so i guess all the non experienced trading people (98% of them) would have heard was 5-8% P/M actually 22% was the one that grabed my attention the most, i left early and considered it while driving home then jumped on line,

You saved me $4K thats 2.5% ROI where do i send the cheque?

thanx all to all contributors
keen to have a chat with anyone willing to share the WTFOTM strategy
i asume seeling at logical highs,however i don't think i fully understand the greeks even though i know what they do & how they affect the option the picture is still out of focus for me so any help is appreciated

ang


----------



## Matteo

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Firstly, thankyou to those who appreciated my post. If I've saved a few people from going down the wrong path then it was worthwhile. As I said though it could still be a viable strategy for some people, but I think a lot of people would feel as though it is not what they thought it would be.

I have not reposted since due to personal issues, and I have not traded the strategy both due to those issues and the fact that I have been anticipating a significant correction in the market - one that could be the beginning of a serious bear market. It appears though that Daniel didn't see it coming, and I get the feeling that right now a lot of his graduates may well be in a world of pain. I am no longer a subscriber, so don't know exactly what is happening with the current trades, but he has been putting out videos to try to calm everyone down and reassuring us all that this is just a blip and that the market will recover so not to panic. He may be right, but I'm guessing it's a bit late for most people not to start panicking. From what I can gather from the videos it appears he is recommending (sorry, I shouldn't say recommending because Daniel doesn't give advice...) suggesting that he is lowering his stop losses and holding onto his naked puts on the basis that the market will recover (which it did last night, but will it continue?). Sounds ok, but I reckon there's quite a few people out there having some sleepless nights at the moment.

As for Daniels response, I will say this: 

1. I do not say the strategy requires a minimum 8 option contracts. I say that this is the number used by Daniel to calculate the projected returns. You can use less than 8 but if you do you will not get the returns stated. And from my experience if you only want to buy 1 or 2 contracts then many of the suggested trades simply won't be profitable, or not profitable enough to justify the time and the risk. And no, $15 is not a lot of money, but if the return is only say $50, then $30 transaction costs is a hefty slice of your potential profits. Again, in order to generate decent returns you need a large bank.

2. The above issue can be negated somewhat with increased volatility. I'm sure some of the potential returns next month will be very good, and you will make some decent returns given the huge volatility right now. But how many people are likely to jump back in after the stress and panic of the past week? Also, Wayne is correct in his assumption that the 5% average return is actually 2% given that it is recommended that you only use 40% of your bank. Not quite so attractive.

3. Again, you can trade with less than a $20k bank, but expect very small returns and many of the proposed trades to not be profitable. In times like this that might change somewhat, but do you have the balls to take the risk for a relatively small return in a market like this one?

4. Daniel makes the point that in times of high volatility the risk is greater, and the returns greater, so the use of guaranteed stops is increased. That's a good point. However, volatility can often come out of the blue, like it has this month (at least to those not expecting it), and without guaranteed stops there will be a lot of people praying for mercy to the trading gods. The bottom line is that most people do the course on the misunderstanding that all the returns are pretty much guaranteed and this is simply not true. Most of the time it is just not viable to use a guaranteed stop as it eliminates your returns. And even with a guaranteed stop you are still going to take some decent losses at times like these if most or all of your trades hit your stops.

5. No, you don't have to purchase Market Analyst, but I'm not sure how you would manage without it. I'm not sure what there is now on the website, but you need to be able to see the chart, and you need to be able to calculate the returns in real time as the prices are constantly moving and can quickly change the potential return you get. When I was doing it the only way you could do this was by using Market Analyst. 

Anyway, that's just my 10 cents worth. I'd love to hear from anyone using the strategy how they have fared this month and whether they will return to the market.

Happy trading everyone!


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I have used the covered Call CFD strategy for 5 months up till now (I paid quite a bit less than quoted here and it was 3 days).
Having not dabbled in more than one ordinary share trade in my life before this (Yes I can see you all hitting your heads against walls, but this is the reality of current western world greed and ignorance combined that drove me to gamble this way)

I found this education to be highly informative and appreciated that he taught correct terms not crap like 'rental' I have seen for simmilar strategies. At no stage did Daniel say anything about it being fool proof or without risk, he mentioned risk many times, but just not in specifics often (such as showing a bad trade example). He is always careful to not say he is suggesting trades to place but only that this is what they are trading you may copy if you decide it matches your risk profile etc.

My assessment is simmillar to Matteo in that to make it work in some months (in which only high priced trades looked good but with low premiums) a bank of 30-50k would have been good but over 60k would be needed to achieve lowest possible brokerage while attaining high diversity, this lack of diversity meant on my 6K capital only 2/4 months profitted (but if I had 6 trades rather than the 2 I could afford the loss would have been absorbed by other trades) other months 20k would work to get at least a 3% expected return on 20k - which is the value sold to me in the intro night (I still made something like 4% the first month on the 6k)


Let me add to Matteo's comments.



Matteo said:


> ....Also, Wayne is correct in his assumption that the 5% average return is actually 2% given that it is recommended that you only use 40% of your bank. Not quite so attractive.




I disagree, this is not correct the percentage returns are calculated on the cost of CFD margin + margin for the call - brokerage - interest, so even though you use 40% of the capital for the CFD's, in reality an additional 40% is used for the margin for the open position on the call (same cost as the underlying CFD's margin). so your outlayed margin is really closer to 80% if you follow the strategy, and the percentages take this into account. (the returns on just the cfd margin are basically double) because of so much capital being utilised I almost got a margin call when 2 trades appreciated over 20% each in a month, because the remaining capital was insufficiant to cover that, so with CFD's utilising 100% is suicide. (This month some trades will return over 15% if not stopped out due to VIX, but with markets like this one bad trade wipes all profits)



Matteo said:


> 3. Again, you can trade with less than a $20k bank, but expect very small returns and many of the proposed trades to not be profitable. In times like this that might change somewhat, but do you have the balls to take the risk for a relatively small return in a market like this one?



As you state, this is all volitility related, some months 100 shares are enough to make 2-5%  though 800 shares would be 8% (no guaranteed stop's)



Matteo said:


> ....and without guaranteed stops there will be a lot of people praying for mercy to the trading gods. The bottom line is that most people do the course on the misunderstanding that all the returns are pretty much guaranteed and this is simply not true. Most of the time it is just not viable to use a guaranteed stop as it eliminates your returns. And even with a guaranteed stop you are still going to take some decent losses at times like these if most or all of your trades hit your stops.



Guaranteed stops can only be put 10% below and at time of opening the CFD.... so often you are not more than 10% ITM and still getting enough return that you want spend a LOT on the guarantee (0.3% cost for guaranteed stop is on the shares not the margin which means 3% of margin used)
because we write deep in the money there is already significant downside protection (usually 8% or more away from strike) so Daniel's team rarely use them (in my 5 months) 



Matteo said:


> 5. No, you don't have to purchase Market Analyst,...



No, but without it I'd have made very expensive mistakes... The new online tool is more that sufficient though, it is very easy and quick (no visuals/graphs though)


Matteo said:


> Anyway, that's just my 10 cents worth. I'd love to hear from anyone using the strategy how they have fared this month and whether they will return to the market.
> Happy trading everyone!




Okay this is the stuff you really want to hear 
over 4 months I'd made about 2% (as stated this would be much higher had I been able to enter all their trade ideas each month) this August 1 month contract period......

*I basically have lost 60% of my capital, because ALL trades hit stops/break even point and had to be closed buying back options in super volatile environment it is now). and if I had guaranteed stop? I would have only lost more! due to cost*

WHY?
The CFD is not where the most loss is (I think only 1 trade gapped below strike or stop for me), it is in the fact that to close out I have to buy back the Call I wrote, this is Super expensive due to volatility being so high compared to when I wrote the calls. In my experience when the price is at the strike the call is still worth 50% what I earned selling it even though it has 0 intrinsic value. SO typically to close a trade gone BAD it is in the range of 10-60% loss on the margin incurred (for the CFD+CALL not entire capital)

This was NOT clearly explained in course, typically closing trades before expirary has cost me enough to wipe the profit of 3 successful trades, which is bad when I only could afford to enter 2 or 3 total.....

Other points 
- IG Markets Cash Settle at month end, which means you never get exercised, but instead pay the difference. I find this very annoying and too hard to track profit/loss, but it does allow to continue with a trade for the next month without incurring additional brokerage.

- IG markets do not have all available options ready-to go on their platform (Apparently they will soon, but it has been 5 months), this means you are kinda tied to only trading when Daniel's team does or to send through requests a day or two before you want to trade, or do it by phone which is more expensive and has larger minimums - THIS means you are stuck, and cant make your own choices very easily, or go into a trade a week later etc.

In summary, this strategy CAN work. BUT not when markets drop over 10% only days into the contract period... this month was not typical... but if the market returned to stability (IE not dropping more that about 8% a month), I cant recover the loss in less than a year, maybe I'll have to seek honest 2nd income stream...

I learned a LOT from this experience and understand markets a hundred times better now..... There is no silver bullet! it is not a nice way to learn but hell it was a very real way to learn 
I have no gripe with Daniel. I think Daniel is a good teacher, and anyone to go into this sort of venture to expect guarantee's is deluded... but to expect beginners to start with CFD covered calls! wow crazy now I see the true risk profile.

I want to know how professional Traders/investors learn their skills, what are the (non hotel room) training facilities?? maybe that's what those like me need to know...

my (very long)10c


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Geez it hardly makes sense though. I'll try again:
> 
> The $64,000,000 question then, is are you *happy* selling a portfolio of OTM short puts, because synthetically that is exactly what you have.
> 
> Sorry for killing the thread.




from my experience actually using the strategy the statement should say "...selling a portfolio of *ITM* short puts" OTM short puts give little/no downside protection so it is not the same as the covered call strategy being discussed, most positions in the strategy provide 8% or more downside protection before reaching the strike. ( new contracts for sept - one is 25% with over 12.5% expected returns on margin, if it doesn't drop 25% in the month - thanks to high VIX) 

The noted issue being that hiting the strike early (or at all) in the contract month means it cannot be closed (buy back the option) without large losses (particularly high when volatility has risen)
I assume this is the same issue with ITM Naked puts too (which as pointed out by a few appears to have the exact same risk profile, or even less due to not having gapping on the underlying stock anymore), and as discussed the brokerage is much less.

Or I guess I could short the underlying just before it hits the strike, but again that's speculating it won't just bounce...


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> from my experience actually using the strategy the statement should say "...selling a portfolio of *ITM* short puts" OTM short puts give little/no downside protection so it is not the same as the covered call strategy being discussed, most positions in the strategy provide 8% or more downside protection before reaching the strike.




No.

Presuming you are selling ITM calls with your pseudo covered call strategy, short puts of the same strike (i.e. synthetically equivalent) are OTM.


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> No.
> 
> Presuming you are selling ITM calls with your pseudo covered call strategy, short puts of the same strike (i.e. synthetically equivalent) are OTM.




Ah yes you are correct, I thought you meant ATM and these are Puts not Calls so OTM when choosing lower strike price, yes. 3 days training ain't gonna make me an expert in terminology...


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> Ah yes you are correct, I thought you meant ATM and these are Puts not Calls so OTM when choosing lower strike price, yes. 3 days training ain't gonna make me an expert in terminology...




Correct, and it ain't going to make anyone proficient in options trading either.

You have highlighted to great folly of these three day courses.


----------



## NWAM

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alright so lots of people have expressed their negative thoughts about this course. What about something positive?

From the people that have now made it out of the rat race via trading, what are some books or strategies that have helped you get out of your day job?
And if you were that sure would you consider mentoring a novice?

You'll get a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside, knowing you've helped someone:

NWAM


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



NWAM said:


> Alright so lots of people have expressed their negative thoughts about this course. What about something positive?
> 
> From the people that have now made it out of the rat race via trading, what are some books or strategies that have helped you get out of your day job?




All strategies exist for a reason, all have a purpose. All are are useful in one or another market condition/view.

Ergo learn all of them and be at least prepared to use any strategy as required.



> And if you were that sure would you consider mentoring a novice?
> 
> You'll get a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside, knowing you've helped someone:
> 
> NWAM




That would be welfare. :


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> All strategies exist for a reason, all have a purpose. All are are useful in one or another market condition/view.
> 
> Ergo learn all of them and be at least prepared to use any strategy as required.
> 
> That would be welfare. :




Am I the only one who see's the irony in this situation? Those playing the role of the experts on this forum criticise someone for charging to teach strategies, yet you wouldn't help someone yourself for free  or do much more than saying 'read books' hmmm, I can see why we turn to weekend courses...

Just for the record;
I thought Daniels Income strategy 3 day course was worth what I paid for it, really I don't know somewhere else I would have learned as much as I have in the 3 days and over the last 6 months, sure it was painful to lose so much but, I think MANY people are in this or simmilar situations given what happend over August. 

Unfortunately I am not aware of where to go for anything less 'hyped' but still interactive and I guess this is the sad part of a thread that does nothing to give those like me and NWAM an alternative, so I fear people will still end up doing courses, getting over-confident, reckless and learn the hard way.... I knew I should have sat in the sidelines during August, but I got greedy...


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Toughlessons, perhaps you think there is a silver bullet somewhere or some sort of secret way to make money.

The reality is that there are many option strategies that can be used and they all can make money if market/volatility conditions pan out.  

The strategy you are looking at works the same as selling a naked put at the same strike/month you would do your long CFD and short call strategy.  Some option educators conveniently omit the fact that you are paying a high interest rate to hold the long CFD.

Instead of putting a stop loss on your CFD, you put the stop loss on the put.  You lose the same money AND you are not paying a daily interest fee on your long CFD.

Now, if the market co-operates and zig-zags along sideways, you will make money.  But if it shoots down, you will lose.  The worst thing is that your CFD guaranteed stop loss gets triggered just as the market is about to turn back up.  If you lose your protective long CFDs and then the market shoots back up with the short call in the market, you will get burned very quickly.

I have studied options for a long time and what I learned has saved me getting too badly burned.  However, I never did find a fail safe means of making regular income EVERY month.

And, if I did find it, I wouldn't be selling it at a seminar.  I would set up managed funds and use the strategy to make good returns. 

So, be thankful the guys here at ASF are being honest with you - and for free.  And, after years of studying and testing everything I could find to make regular monthly money with time decay (theta), nothing worked consistently.

It's a case of learning options and then looking for opportunities to use the various strategies as a tradesman uses his tools of trade.  And that takes time to study and time (experience) in the market.

PS - and what I have written above is pretty much what WayneL told you in his last post in this thread...


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> Am I the only one who see's the irony in this situation?



Yes



> Those playing the role of the experts on this forum criticise someone for charging to teach strategies, yet you wouldn't help someone yourself for free  or do much more than saying 'read books' hmmm, I can see why we turn to weekend courses...



Yeah, we are all a$$holes, no two ways about it. Do those thousand dollar + courses. Trade your way to financial fiefdom!!!

 To cut the bullshizzle - Wayne has posted numerous threads since the beginning of time, going through basics, answering questions etc. for $0 (note the dollar sign only). Which reminds me I need to start a thread to smoke him out for his misdeeds. 

Through fire and water, from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, he has battled with covered call nut-riders. Until at last he has thrown down his enemies and smote their ruins by the mountain side.

NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Indeed and I really should apologise for directing my personal frustrations at WayneL and the others here. I am finding it challenging to know how to learn the ropes in the many tools without being burned as much as I have been so far.



sails said:


> Toughlessons, perhaps you think there is a silver bullet somewhere or some sort of secret way to make money.



True, and as you say a fantasy on my behalf...



sails said:


> The strategy you are looking at works the same as selling a naked put at the same strike/month you would do your long CFD and short call strategy.  Some option educators conveniently omit the fact that you are paying a high interest rate to hold the long CFD.



Totally agree, and now I am seeking to learn more strategies, and I see that I have received free education here re: Naked OTM puts = covered calls but with no interest and less brokerage., but basically same risk and vix issues.



sails said:


> ... However, I never did find a fail safe means of making regular income EVERY month.



Did you look into a mix of naked puts & naked calls so if the market moves sharply they will generally buffer each other? 



mazzatelli said:


> To cut the bullshizzle - Wayne has posted numerous threads since the beginning of time, going through basics, answering questions etc. for $0





sails said:


> So, be thankful the guys here at ASF are being honest with you - and for free.




Thank you for your comments and free learning, and umm, raw honesty that some silver bullet chasers really do need... apologies for the comments that well, ignorant of who the people here and how much they may already contribute and have done so far.
I think I shall read the other forums more before posting like the previous one 



sails said:


> NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.




I guess I am saying although the strategy is very flawed for 'a reliable monthly income' there are valid points I have learned about trading, CFDs, options and such. but mostly I learned efficient ways to lose cash


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> sails said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I am saying although the strategy is very flawed for 'a reliable monthly income' there are valid points I have learned about trading, CFDs, options and such. but mostly I learned efficient ways to lose cash
Click to expand...



Yeah sails, you're one of those vigilantes that are the first to point your fingers! :


----------



## Robshan

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The interesting thing that I find is that people seem to have a real issue with paying for education.

I realise that there are definitely some hucksters around that take advantage but I think that there is some genuinely valuable information that can be accessed for a fee.   You just need to do your due diligence, take an objective position distanced from the sales hype and find some genuine reviews.

One thing that really put me off the DK program when I was seriously considering it was that most of the "testimonials" were about how much confidence they had based on the sales presentation ... this is not a testimonial of results .... you want someone who has been doing it for at least a few months (preferrably years) with consistent success.   Too many of these guys have little substance in their customer satisfaction stories ... that's where a thread like this is honest and helpful. 

I think that lumping all people who sell courses into the same basket is narrow minded and limiting, everyone needs mentors but you need to make an informed decision in who you choose.

WayneL and Sails provide valuable input and it's greatly appreciated.


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Yeah sails, you're one of those vigilantes that are the first to point your fingers! :




whoops I see I misquoted , sails diddn't post that you did mazzatelli, can't edit it either


----------



## maffu

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Interesting to see this thread pop up.
I went to one of those introductory course by Daniel Kertcher back in 2004 or 2005, when I had just finished High School. 

It was incredibly light on any facts, and it instantly annoyed me that it had no details to any of the strategies. I didn't go ahead with any of it.

I have to admit he was a very good speaker, and it did get me interested interested in trading and markets in a big way. I have subsequently done a Finance degree, learnt all about derivative securities, and how to derive the Black-Scholes option model and all sorts of interesting things about portfolio management and quantitative trading strategies.

So I can thank Daniel for being an interesting speaker, although I think his presentations and trading strategies were never going to provide a trading edge.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



maffu said:


> I have to admit he was a very good speaker, and it did get me interested interested in trading and markets in a big way. I have subsequently done a Finance degree, learnt all about derivative securities, and how to derive the Black-Scholes option model and all sorts of interesting things about portfolio management and quantitative trading strategies.
> 
> So I can thank Daniel for being an interesting speaker, although I think his presentations and trading strategies were never going to provide a trading edge.




Yes, but for the vast majority people like Daniel Kertcher get folks interested in trading... the wrong way.

It need not be Daniel Kertcher with this CFD Covered call subterfuge, it could be Robert Quacky Saki, Aussie Rob***, or any number of irritating seminar clowns.

Kertcher and those like him, as we have seen in threads like this, create an army of arrogant rank novices who believe they are the recipients of received options wisdom.

The only true education they receive is from the bear driven steam roller that squashes their gizzards out as they try to snatch pathetic pennies from a naive system.

Even then, some doggedly hold on the the faith. They don't trade anymore because their capital is gone (unlucky you see), but they still brag how they used to make 4% per month. 

It is the worst way imaginable to become interested in trading.

Maffu, you're one of only a few who reject the drivvle and go and find the truth for themselves and learn to profit properly.


----------



## maffu

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Maffu, you're one of only a few who reject the drivvle and go and find the truth for themselves and learn to profit properly.




Not quite sure I've learnt the profit part just yet


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> ...Did you look into a mix of naked puts & naked calls so if the market moves sharply they will generally buffer each other?




Yes, I studied, graphed and live traded with small quantities so many strategies - and not just the mainline ones.  Thankfully, I had learned and understood about synthetics which help enormously in dealing with complex positions.  I have done some strategies with calendars at multiple strikes and with an additional otm long put and call to used for adjustments as the market moved - and sometimes used reverse calendars if the conditions were right.  I could probably write a book on the numerous strategies I have studied, researched and live tested.

However, even after all that time and effort, I did not find a silver bullet that would just keep making money month in and month out consistently and some of the complex strategies ended up being eaten up in slippage.

To trade Aussie options, I have come to the conclusion that the simpler the better and it pays to wait for good opportunities to present and then use the appropriate strategy to trade that opportunity.  And that takes time and effort and certainly time in the market.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



toughlessons said:


> Did you look into a mix of naked puts & naked calls so if the market moves sharply they will generally buffer each other?




This is the general group of strategies lumped together as delta neutral. Presumably we are still talking about being short gamma, ergo what you DO NOT want is a sharp move; gamma is your mortal enemy is such a circumstance.

It's like being surrounded by katana wielding Ninja assassins:

If you freeze you will have your head unceremoniously lopped off and handed to you.

You can defend if you have the abilty, you might pull off a stunning victory, but many times there may be collateral damage and sometimes you may still lose anyway.

The real world is not choreographed like a Bruce Lee movie; in the real world sometimes the bad guys win.


----------



## toughlessons

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks for the comments re: mix of naked OTM puts and naked ITM calls ( I think I got the terms generally right) 
It does seem from what I have read and experienced that, none of these really help enough when markets move sharply (and for US requires me to get woken any time a strike is near being breached, ie: quite easy to react emotionally), so in the end it becomes a fairly speculative activity but with more overheads than simpler strategies... the 'bad' months seem to be enough to always wipe out premium based income strategies. As seveal have said, one strategy works in certain conditions as does another in a different situation, and this is skill, timing, learning and experinced based, not something one can just buy or implement within a short time...


----------



## Jaan

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi all,
 I registered so as I could share my thoughts on the Daniel Kertcher program(s).

I have listened to a couple of million aires in the past try to sell me their program/formula for generating wealth from the stock market. Listening to Daniels free 2 hour seminar was a very simple experience of ' Great! Someone who seems to have high integrity, is very clear and very trustworthy' It was a straightforward experience of ' I can trust what this guy is saying' and ' I can trust this guy' I finally signed up for a program on creating wealth through the share market after putting off doing so for nearly 15 years.

I was not dissapointed. far from it.

The guy is worth every cent. I question the scarcity mentality of people who think $4,000 is a lot of money to get further education and investing in yourself. crazy really. And compared to what Daniel makes from the stock market and what he sits on wealth wise, it is really peanuts to him.....believe me, the money from students is not why he is doing his trainings.
I also question people who think they know it all and you do not need further training after x number of years in some field. It is that attitude that keeps you mediocre and lacking financially.
On the subject of which... There is a feeling of  either tall poppy syndrome or even jealousy as I read through some of these posts.... The fact is Daniel is passionate, therefore very knowledgeable about his passion of making money through trading and has therefore a goldmine of information to share...Why should not he get paid well and charge well for it? Good on him I say! 
Did you know in the energetics of the energy centers of the body, the base energy centre corresponds to survival/ money issues and abundance. And when people are jealous of anothers success and wealth, the jealous persons base energy centre shrinks and therefore attracts less abundance. And in turn if you are happy for someones wealth and abundance, your base centre  expands massively and you end up attracting more money. Daniel is smart and uses a classic law of energy and wishes for everyone to be wealthy, actually does something about it and he gets lots of the same in return!
A lot of the posts were also cynical and critical... Look no one is perfect, if Daniel is not forthright in saying ' hey, I deserve to get paid really well for this info because I have lived and breathed this stuff for nearly 20 years now and I think that is the value of what I am giving you here', if he fumbles and feels he has to justify and says, ' hey it costs lots to put this on ' forgive him. No big deal. I know for a fact he has gotten his returns accredited/ proved by an accountancy firm. It is serious/ legit. I know he has retired twice now only to get bored, etc. I know for a fact he made $1.4 million in one go on the markets not too long ago thanks to his incredible knowledge of the interconnectedness of the worlds happenings... He knows his stuff... Whoever was put off by the cynicism and critical minds who posted things in this thread...you have missed out because you failed to trust yourself and your initial instinct to be trained by Daniel.... Crazy I say... Trust yourself ...do not listen to other peoples cynicism and critical, down putting thinking. Sign up again. And do thenext 2 courses after the 1st. If you do not believe in yourself and your ability to make lots of money in the near future enough to invest 10 grand ( less really) in further education, if you cannot put your money where your self belief mouth is, then you have a very poor self worth which will keep you poor.

Thanks for listening


----------



## Timmy

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Jaan said:


> Thanks for listening





You're welcome. 
And thank-you. I love spam.


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Jaan said:


> Trust yourself ...do not listen to other peoples cynicism and critical, down putting thinking. Sign up again. And do the next 2 courses after the 1st. If you do not believe in yourself and your ability to make lots of money in the near future enough to invest 10 grand ( less really) in further education, if you cannot put your money where your self belief mouth is, then you have a very poor self worth which will keep you poor.



 Well we all know who has lost $10k recently.

You're advice is not only stupid, but it is dangerous.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Jaan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for listening




No worries Daniel, I always enjoy a good laugh.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Good Lord, Jaan,(?) maybe consider a little subtlety next time?  I don't think I've ever read such blatant advertising.


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Julia said:


> Good Lord, Jaan,(?) maybe consider a little subtlety next time?  I don't think I've ever read such blatant advertising.


----------



## effraye

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Daniel is a salesmen, nothing more nothing less.


----------



## MACD

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Jaan,

You are obviously trying to recoup the $4k you got suckered into and lost with Daniel, by trying to get as many people to join!!!! - more suckers??

If the system is so fantastic, I suggest you post some of your / Daniels  trades and profits and lets see what all the fuss is about.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

As I've got a spare couple of hours, I thought I'd take another look at Daniel's transparent avertising.



Jaan said:


> Hi all,
> I have listened to a couple of million aires in the past try to sell me their program/formula for generating wealth from the stock market. Listening to Daniels free 2 hour seminar was a very simple experience of ' Great! Someone who seems to have high integrity, is very clear and very trustworthy' It was a straightforward experience of ' I can trust what this guy is saying' and ' I can trust this guy' I finally signed up for a program on creating wealth through the share market after putting off doing so for nearly 15 years.




Pure psychobabble, trustworthiness is a perception all marketers try to cultivate... you are a bit too obvious in pushing this point. How can you judge trustworthiness from a two hour sales presentation? Ridiculous!



> The guy is worth every cent. I question the scarcity mentality of people who think $4,000 is a lot of money to get further education and investing in yourself. crazy really.




More psychobabble to make $4k look cheap. For around $100 each, you can read the tomes of McMillan, Natenberg, Cottle et al and end up with many times more option knowledge than ANY weekend seminar.

Some individualized mentorship programs might be worth $,000s due to the individual effort attention the student receives, but a weekend seminar gives you enough information and the motivation to get yourself in trouble in the vast majority of cases.



> And compared to what Daniel makes from the stock market and what he sits on wealth wise, it is really peanuts to him.....believe me, the money from students is not why he is doing his trainings.




I laughed so hard at this it left me gasping for breath. I'm sure you are a very wealthy guy Daniel, and I'm sure you're smart enough to plonk on the sharemarket, but from whence did this wealth accumulate?

Robert Kiyosaki often brags about his (un-named) business ventures, but a little digging reveals that these ventures are none other than his seminar etc business. His "business" is none other than what the sucker just paid to go and listen to.

I would stake money that your main income is the seminar business Daniel! 

One $4000 suc.... er I mean "student" might be insignificant, but a room full of them, several times a year, plus add-ons, data, "advanced" courses etc, adds up to a significant amount of money over time.



> I also question people who think they know it all and you do not need further training after x number of years in some field. It is that attitude that keeps you mediocre and lacking financially.




I think you would find that after x number of years in the field, some of the other respected options experts would be sought. PP is to suck in innocents and noooobs.



> On the subject of which... There is a feeling of  either tall poppy syndrome or even jealousy as I read through some of these posts.... The fact is Daniel is passionate, therefore very knowledgeable about his passion of making money through trading and has therefore a goldmine of information to share...Why should not he get paid well and charge well for it? Good on him I say!




Clearly, your passion is making money through promoting trading seminars. The goldmine of information is in observing the marketing. Kudos there. (Mind you this post you left was a bit too transparent IMO)

The actual trading information is basic, selective, incomplete and IMO, dangerous because of omissions.



> Did you know in the energetics of the energy centers of the body, the base energy centre corresponds to survival/ money issues and abundance. And when people are jealous of anothers success and wealth, the jealous persons base energy centre shrinks and therefore attracts less abundance. And in turn if you are happy for someones wealth and abundance, your base centre  expands massively and you end up attracting more money. Daniel is smart and uses a classic law of energy and wishes for everyone to be wealthy, actually does something about it and he gets lots of the same in return!




More disingenuous marketing blurb... psychobabble.



> A lot of the posts were also cynical and critical... Look no one is perfect, if Daniel is not forthright in saying ' hey, I deserve to get paid really well for this info because I have lived and breathed this stuff for nearly 20 years now and I think that is the value of what I am giving you here', if he fumbles and feels he has to justify and says, ' hey it costs lots to put this on ' forgive him.




Why should we? IMO the cynicism and critique is well deserved.



> No big deal. I know for a fact he has gotten his returns accredited/ proved by an accountancy firm. It is serious/ legit.




Easy one Daniel. Let's see it. Show the world continuous audited returns from say... Jan 2007 til now.



> I know he has retired twice now only to get bored, etc. I know for a fact he made $1.4 million in one go on the markets not too long ago thanks to his incredible knowledge of the interconnectedness of the worlds happenings... He knows his stuff...




Nobody is questioning that you have made money. I'm quite sure you've made boxes of the stuff and have it lying around the house, but anyone with half a brain would understand the likely source of that wealth is not from trading your "system", it is from selling seminars, just like Kiyosaki, and others in the "wealth creation industry".

BTW, the claim of $1.4mil can only be hearsay unless verified. Hey I made twice that in one go. (And you'd be right in doubting that unless I could prove it).



> Whoever was put off by the cynicism and critical minds who posted things in this thread...




Daniel, it really is cheeky to use the forum to try to get free advertising and then bag the membership who happen to know a thing or two. Mazzatelli for example is a professional in the field and would know more that the lot of us put together.



> you have missed out because you failed to trust yourself and your initial instinct to be trained by Daniel.... Crazy I say... Trust yourself ...do not listen to other peoples cynicism and critical, down putting thinking. Sign up again. And do thenext 2 courses after the 1st. If you do not believe in yourself and your ability to make lots of money in the near future enough to invest 10 grand ( less really) in further education, if you cannot put your money where your self belief mouth is, then you have a very poor self worth which will keep you poor.




Classic salesmanship, going for the close, asking for the order, plus more psychobabble.

How many folks after forking out 10k are long term profitable?

How many are still trading your system after 2 years?

Answers will need verification.



> Thanks for listening




Thanks for the entertainment.


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Jaan said:


> Thanks for listening




Jaan - How long have you been working for Daniel K.?  I can see you are still vey inexperienced as a sales person.   You are not nearly subtle enough........ or persuasive, or convincing.  You haven't got me salivating and begging for more.   Never mind, with more training and lots of practice you may improve.   Come back in a few years.


----------



## mrsclark

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I first saw Daniel Kertcher in 2006 do a presentation about CFD's and signed up for his course which myself, my husband and two teenage children completed in 2007.  We messed around for a while, paper trading, looking at CFD's, options (except I could never really get the hang of the Spectrum Live Options Platform) etc etc.  Made a little, lost a little, kind of did a bit, stopped, started again, went and saw Daniel again etc etc.  

However our interest never waned.  Daniel's course was like a small flame which sparked a bigger fire.  Our interest in the potential grew.  Our trading continued as did our mistakes and learning.

To cut a long story short, last year my husband and I made over 500k using Forex trading strategies based on Daniel's courses. And this was without really trying too hard.

We havent traded for a few months because we are busy with a couple of businesses we have.  However we will trade again when those settle down again.

Our continued education is thanks to Daniel.  We outlaid the (back then) initial $4000.00odd plus a few bits and pieces we didnt really need. We also did a lot of trading, experimenting and made a lot of mistakes.  

Daniel is a great catalyst for change and we found him to be both genuine and generous.

It is really up to you because there is no quick fix or get rich quick scheme - just investment of time and your own dedication with the help of some useful information.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So mrsclark, the reader must ask themselves - Why would someone making purportedly $500k a year suddenly pop up with their first post on a PP spam thread? 

Why, to spam of course. 

Further, why would you stop working a $10,000 per week business?

Sorry, your post looks, walks and smells like a duck. Ergo, it's a duck.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I am most surprised by the unfair treatment of David Kertcher, it must be hurtful to his mum to hear him discussed in these terms. 

I, due to a serious allergy to sitting in seminars with poor people and mugs and bull****ters have never been to any of his ministerings, I come out in itchy hives. 

However, a contact of mine in Nigeria, Chief OWOYEMI, not to be confused with his niece Grace Bhagwan OWEOYEMI, who lost her whole family in a revolution in Burkino Faso, has sent me the following.



> MY NAME IS CHIEF OWOYEMI FORMER MANAGING DIRECTOR OF WEMA BANK LAGOS NIGERIA WHO HAVE JUST BEING RETIRED AFTER SERVING THE MANDATORY 35 YEARS IN ACTIVE SERVICE AND PERSONALLY GROSSING A TOTAL FUND PORTFOLIO OF ABOUT 450  MILLION DOLLARS  FOR MYSELF DURING MY TENURE AS THE BANKS CHIEF EXECUTIVE,
> AND FOLLOWING THE CURRENT COLLAPSE OF MAJOR BANKS GLOBALLY; WHICH HAS NOW LED TO EVERY SUPER POWER COUNTRY TO NOW ATTEMPT TO NOW WANT TO SAVALGE THEIR MAJOR FINANCIAL   INSTITUTIONS IN A BID TO SAVE THEM FROM EMMINENT TOTAL COLLAPSE I AM NOW WORRIED HOW AND WHERE TO INVEST THIS FUND TO AVOID A SITUATION WHERE IT MAY END UP BEING TRAPPED IN ONE OF THIS BANKS E.G A,I.G; J,P MORGAN
> I HAVE THEIRFORE ASKED HON LORD KITCHENER MP WESTMINISTER PARLEMENT LONDON TO ACT AS MY BROKER TO SOURCE FOR A RELIABLE AND CAPABLE HAND  WHO WILL  ARRANGE TO RECEIVE THIS MONEY FOR IMMEDIATE INVESTMENT INTO A PROFITABLE VENTURE ABROAD,UPON CONFIRMATION I WILLTHEN  FACILITATE THE FUND MOVEMENT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE;
> LOOKING FORWARD TO A FRUITFUL BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP AS I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU SOON
> BE ASSURED OF MY VERY WARM REGARDS
> CHIEF OWOYEMI




I would be willing to provide Chief OWOYEMI's details to forum members who suffer similar allergies as I, or who are unable to afford the calamine lotion, which would be an extra expense should I attend his seminar.

I feel CHIEF OWOYEMI would provide a better path to wealth than David.

Then that is just my opinion


gg


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mrsclark said:


> ...signed up for his course which myself, my husband and *two teenage children completed in 2007*.






> *We messed around for a while*,  paper trading, looking at CFD's, options (except I could never really  get the hang of the Spectrum Live Options Platform) etc etc.  *Made a little, lost a little, kind of did a bit, stopped, started again,* went and saw Daniel again etc etc.






> To cut a long story short, last year my husband and I made over 500k using Forex trading strategies based on Daniel's courses. *And this was without really trying too hard*.






> *We havent traded for a few months because we are busy with a couple of businesses we have*.  However we will trade again when those settle down again.




Are we going to get these bs testimonials on a weekly basis?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Are we going to get these bs testimonials on a weekly basis?




As this thread ranks highly on Google, I suspect so.


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mrsclark said:


> To cut a long story short,*last year my husband and I made over 500k* using Forex trading strategies based on Daniel's courses. And this was without really trying too hard.



And lost 499k. Ha ha b.s. artist.


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mrsclark said:


> To cut a long story short, last year my husband and I made over 500k using Forex trading strategies based on Daniel's courses. And this was without really trying too hard.
> 
> We havent traded for a few months because we are busy with a couple of businesses we have.  However we will trade again when those settle down again.




Oh.....MrsClark, MrsClark!!!     Why oh why, if you are making $10K a week, "without trying too hard", would you give such a successful business to concentrate on other, (less successful) businesses requiring much more time and energy?  

That doesn't sound like a very good business choice to me!!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Wysiwyg said:


> And lost 499k. Ha ha b.s. artist.






Ruby said:


> Oh.....MrsClark, MrsClark!!!     Why oh why, if you are making $10K a week, "without trying too hard", would you give such a successful business to concentrate on other, (less successful) businesses requiring much more time and energy?
> 
> That doesn't sound like a very good business choice to me!!



From the "How to bulls#it 101" tape set (Which I will sell to you all for $4000 ): Make it believable.

If Daniel's goon here had said we were making $120,000 p/a, some suckers might have believed it. 

The goon might as well have said $5 billion a year.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

His name is David, not Daniel. When he was a kid that's what we used to call him.

He started using Daniel later.

At least get it right spammers.

gg


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> As this thread ranks highly on Google, I suspect so.




I noticed the next hit on Google's list doesn't have very favourable things to say either.

This thread seems to favour a long and torturous bout rather than the quick death of that other options "guru" thread. :


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> I noticed the next hit on Google's list doesn't have very favourable things to say either.
> 
> This thread seems to favour a long and torturous bout rather than the quick death of that other options "guru" thread. :




And the more that is posted the higher it goes on the google list.

gg


----------



## Shanpwl

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Guys and gals,

Reading through these posts there is clearly a collective of combined experience, trading the markets with a variety of methods and opinions.

I am a novice, have never traded and don't have a concept of the markets, CFDs vs Options etc. I was thinking of doing a course to educate myself on strategies to trade in the markets, solely for the purpose of creating a stream of residual income (I am not that naive that I believe I will be able to retire from my job after 12/ 24 months by substituting my income through trading).

I would love feedback from the forum on what you believe is/ are the best course/s for a beginner, what strategies you believe are the lowest risk for the best return (if it exists), and any other advice you would share with me based on your own experience i.e what would you have done differently if you were able to start again? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Mekanoid

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Shanpwl, I went to the Trading Pursuits seminar on Monday in Melbourne... Daniel's brother ran it and it was pretty slick. Obviously whatever motivational/NLP processes they use work as I was 90% ready to sign up!

After reading these forums I find myself in the same position as you... wondering A. whether what I'd learn at the seminar could actually work (reading the great threads on this forum suggest otherwise, or that there's less complex ways to acheive the same strategy.. and B. that maybe this field is not for the average punter (Trading Pursuits target audience) and that there's years of education required before one jumps into options (and/or covered calls with CFD etc).

Anyway... I just picked up a copy of Options as an Investment Strategy but I'd also love to attend some kind of educational forum as we all learn in different ways and the face to face method is hard to beat. 

Hoping you get some good replies to your question!



Shanpwl said:


> Guys and gals,
> 
> Reading through these posts there is clearly a collective of combined experience, trading the markets with a variety of methods and opinions.
> 
> I am a novice, have never traded and don't have a concept of the markets, CFDs vs Options etc. I was thinking of doing a course to educate myself on strategies to trade in the markets, solely for the purpose of creating a stream of residual income (I am not that naive that I believe I will be able to retire from my job after 12/ 24 months by substituting my income through trading).
> 
> I would love feedback from the forum on what you believe is/ are the best course/s for a beginner, what strategies you believe are the lowest risk for the best return (if it exists), and any other advice you would share with me based on your own experience i.e what would you have done differently if you were able to start again?
> 
> Thanks in advance


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Why pay for something that you can get for free with a bit of minimal research?


----------



## So_Cynical

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

There is a certain % of the population that want easy answers, everything served up to them on a silver plate and they believe that they can pay someone to provide them with the "secrets" to wealth and success.

And there is a certain % of the population of Nigeria and Australia that is ready and willing to feed there dreams, desires and delusions....and the vast majority of us watch on in bewilderment.

Platinum Pursuits, Golden Desires, Dream Builders...but never Dangerous Delusions.


----------



## Pager

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Some people go to these introductorily seminars and see trading presented as being a very easy way to make a few $ and believe it, now maybe what Platinum Pursuits and Daniel Kercher offer is something that may well work but IMO what people forget is trading is a business and business = work, then there is the physiological effect it has on you particularly during drawdown, but people sign up and after a few weeks or whatever they start drifting or complaining its not working as promised, during the introduction seminars very little time is given to what happens most in trading and that’s going sideways or drawdown, from my experience anyway the leaps and bounds your account makes with the winners are always short lived and its just a matter or staying the course and keeping your losses small until the next big fish is hooked.

I think people who succeed at trading have an interest in trading that goes beyond just making money, Platinum pursuits, safety in the market, optionetics etc etc all may well be viable its just the majority will soon tire of them as there not always hitting new equity highs or even the fact it takes only 30 mins a day to place your orders etc and will be too much for some, just like all the people who keep going on the different diets but never seem to lose the weight.

Personally I would not do any of these courses there’s enough resources on the internet but that comes down to time looking and reading, trying different things, if your interested its enjoyable to do and research if your not, and your just looking to make easy money well IMO, your doomed


----------



## merino

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks Matto. I have also done Daniel's CFD course. I find your review to be informative and accurate. 
I took the path of writing calls on some of their picks and found that I paid  the course of quickly. 
As a learner in covered call writing the course appealed to me  because I was interested in having exposure to different stocks with a known risk factor without owning the stock. Like you I have since learned a great deal about US stocks and found some of Platinum Pursuits information useful.
 It would have been good if Platinum Pursuits had included more informative information in their advertising.
I hope many people read what you have written.
Excellent and thank you
Merino


----------



## alocineel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



maffu said:


> Interesting to see this thread pop up.
> I have subsequently done a Finance degree, learnt all about derivative securities, and how to derive the Black-Scholes option model and all sorts of interesting things about portfolio management and quantitative trading strategies.
> 
> So I can thank Daniel for being an interesting speaker, although I think his presentations and trading strategies were never going to provide a trading edge.




Interesting Maffu, I too went & did a finance degree with quant,pm,currencies etc & loved it!!
Not sure about the uni u went to but I now have a $25k Hecs debt + course expenses + time without wage(say $60k/yr) etc - quite pricey huh.
Just wondering if I had gone & posted that I finished a $210k course with no absolute garauntee of a wage & I got taught pretty much the same info as several hundred others that yr - what sort of reaction that might get from people?
Its taken 3 years of a** kissin and playing the corporate bs game to even pull in 6 figures. So am I better off for it??? Well at least the course was good & it definately wasn't a scam right?? 

So my point(if I even have one) is that just cause a course costs a couple grand doesnt mean it should be labelled scam. Yes Daniel's is definately a 'scheme'(went to an info night some yrs back) just to clear that up!!

I am currently looking for a 1-2-1 mentor to try and 'help' me(not make me, thats my responsibility) go from a PT trader to FT & making a decent wage. But people want to know what it costs before they find out who Im even considering which I think to be a bit odd. 
Is there anyone that comes recommended as a mentor? There is plenty written about what stuff not to touch, but nothing on what is good. Am assuming it may be that if they are a good mentor, then the less that know, the better??

Cheers


----------



## builder2818

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



alocineel said:


> Interesting Maffu, I too went & did a finance degree with quant,pm,currencies etc & loved it!!
> Not sure about the uni u went to but I now have a $25k Hecs debt + course expenses + time without wage(say $60k/yr) etc - quite pricey huh.
> Just wondering if I had gone & posted that I finished a $210k course with no absolute garauntee of a wage & I got taught pretty much the same info as several hundred others that yr - what sort of reaction that might get from people?
> Its taken 3 years of a** kissin and playing the corporate bs game to even pull in 6 figures. So am I better off for it??? Well at least the course was good & it definately wasn't a scam right??
> 
> So my point(if I even have one) is that just cause a course costs a couple grand doesnt mean it should be labelled scam. Yes Daniel's is definately a 'scheme'(went to an info night some yrs back) just to clear that up!!
> 
> I am currently looking for a 1-2-1 mentor to try and 'help' me(not make me, thats my responsibility) go from a PT trader to FT & making a decent wage. But people want to know what it costs before they find out who Im even considering which I think to be a bit odd.
> Is there anyone that comes recommended as a mentor? There is plenty written about what stuff not to touch, but nothing on what is good. Am assuming it may be that if they are a good mentor, then the less that know, the better??
> 
> Cheers




I'd say the degree was worth it as there is no way in hell you would get a job by quoting Kertchers courses on your resume.

Considering the top trading firms want the top maths whiz's i'm gathering you don't work for one of them if your aspirations are to become a full time trader.


----------



## davlaw

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Trade Fair said:


> Daniel Kertcher was a licensed representative of a company called "Mastering Wealth Pty Ltd, in Sydney.
> 
> Anyone want to hear about it?




I put 50k in his fund (Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge Fund) and three years later it had grown to 3k - it is now closed (Oct/Nov 2010)money refunded to all the punters.


----------



## tracernet

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



thotri said:


> Thank you for this very useful review. I'm currently considering this course and am actually quite surprised that you HAVE TO purchase the MarketAnalyst tool. You would think that you can calculate the returns yourself.
> 
> What happens if you don't pay the $888 per year - don't they give you access to the website?
> 
> Cheers




You don't have to purchase Market Analyst, they just promote it because it integrates nicely with the monthly report and makes life a little easier.  I've been running this strategy for 12 months+ and I've only ever used a spreadsheet I made to do the same thing.  If you're not confident using spreadsheets, Market Analyst also have  Lite version available at a much lower price, but again, I'd use Trading View for free first personally.


----------



## tracernet

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> I recently completed the Platinum Pursuits Tradeability Income course presented by Daniel Kertcher. I was quite apprehensive about it, and that wasn’t helped by the negative comments about Daniel and his company on this and other trading forums.  However, it is inevitable that anyone who charges thousands for their courses is going to be treated with suspicion, and the content of the course really had me interested, so I decided to part with my $3,200 and do the course. Now I hope here to provide an insightful and unbiased account of the course and its potential to fulfill its promises for anyone who may be considering undertaking it.




I did this course in Dec 2010 and have been using the strategy.  There are some points in this article that need addressing.




Matteo said:


> However this is a long term strategy and the idea is that over time it should generate a good income.




It does. But don't expect to get rich quick.  This is an income style strategy.



Matteo said:


> The blurb that I got before I did the course was that for the first 3 months of using this strategy (note: this is a very new strategy that only people who have done Daniels course can do as for the moment there is only 1 broker, IG Markets, who allow the strategy and they will only allow access to Daniels students) the return averaged about 12% per month, annualized to around 150% yearly return.




Sprectrum Live is about to (or already does) do this as well with their own pros and cons.  Personally I use IG Markets but I don't like how they don't have more options available.  Spectrum Live do, but that is only one Pro.  5% return is average, 12+% return is great.  



Matteo said:


> And you can trade using as little as $5,000.




I agree with Matteo, you need about $40k to make the returns interesting.  But to be fair to Platinum Pursuits (PP) even if you have $100k, they strenously suggest only starting with $10-20k anyway while you learn.  At no stage are they saying ALL you need is $5-10k, they are saying start with this and work at understanding first.



Matteo said:


> So, things aren’t looking quite as rosy now. I have been trading this strategy now for 2 months on a $20k bank and have so far only entered 5 trades with an avg return of about $50 per trade. I have made about $250.




Not sure what you were doing those months, but you're not following the rules maybe.  $50 per trade is pretty miserable.  I suspect the GSL is causing you some dramas, but I'm going to address it below.



Matteo said:


> Also, the strategy sounds simple, but beginners will find it very tricky to get to grips with.




I had zero experience prior to doing this course.  The only thing I found "tricky" was using IG Markets platform which isn't covered much in the course.  After using it a few times, it all comes together (much like any software).



Matteo said:


> I have been trading for 8 years and still found it quite nerve-wracking the first time trying to get the returns right. A small move in the share price can turn a reasonable return into a poor one if the option price doesn’t move as well, so you need to be on the ball.




The option's price doesn't tick so much like the share price does, and there is definitely some give in the price movement, but I don't think you're doing something right here.  I'd love to desktop share with you on this matter to see what you mean, because I've never found this to be a problem.



Matteo said:


> You also need to be checking the trades every day because if something goes wrong you have to attend to it.




IG have an Alert function to send you a message directly to your phone if a rule is triggered. Personally I set the trigger around the strike the price and forget about it unless triggered.  Only then do you have to consider action.  Otherwise this strategy is definitely set and forget.  



Matteo said:


> If you get stopped out you need to decide whether to buy back the option or let it go, or possibly purchase another cfd.  Also, you need to subscribe to their income report which is about $450 per year (first 4 months free)




Platinum Pursuits will guide you exactly what they intend to do in this situation.  There is no decision if you choose to follow them to the letter.  For first time subscribers, that's exactly what I'd recommend and why I'd say $50 or less a month is worth it.  Personally I unscribscribed from the list for a the middle of 2011 but have come back to it again.  I find just having a list of calls and puts pre analysed is worth the money alone.



Matteo said:


> and you have to purchase MarketAnalyst software for $888 per year because it has the calculator for the covered calls so you can see the return you are getting. They also forgot to tell us about that……




Let me be clear on this point, YOU DO NOT NEED MARKET ANALYST (MA).  I have never bought it or used it.  MA is just a charting system and it integrates with the Monthly Income Report (MIR) nicely, but it is not necessary at all.  Platinum Pursuits (PP) recommend it to make it easy for people, but I just use a spreadsheet to the same effect.  If I need a chart I use the IG Markets in built ones, FinViz or Trading View which are all free.  

If you still feel more comfortable using the same systems as PP, MA have a LITE version also which is much cheaper, but keep it free if you can.



Matteo said:


> On the positive side, the support from PP is excellent. I have had queries which have been answered in depth, and the videos and info on the website are very good. Daniel also appears to be very knowledgeable on the subject and teaches it well.




I concur.



Matteo said:


> Bottom line:  I don’t think what Daniel is promoting is a scam.




A scam it definitely isn't.  It works for me... really well.



Matteo said:


> However I do think there are some serious misrepresentations and I would not be surprised if there were a number of disgruntled people out there. And the truth is that no matter how good a strategy is, probably only 10% of people will make good money from it regardless.




I think the biggest thing people are getting wrong in this thread surrounds the Guaranteed Stop Loss (GSL).  The GSL is 3% of the value of the stock so yes, if you are targeting a stock that returns 5%, a GSL may not feel like a great way to get the stated returns represented by the company. BUT.... the GSL is a one time only fee.  If you roll over the same stock next month, with a new 5% call option, you get the full 5% AND the GSL.  You only lose the GSL when you sell the stock (or get stopped out).  The only downside from there is that PP may not continue keeping your GSL stock on their list, but that doesn't mean you can't. 

Next, you can't set a GSL within 10% of a stock price so it forces you to have a decent buffer in the first place which I like.  Yes, if you want bigger returns, do the GSL when the volatility is high, but keep it ongoing when the volatility is low and everything they say is therefore true.  But doesn't that make sense anyway, take out insurance when things are really unpredictable and benefit from it when things are easy...




Matteo said:


> Do I regret doing the course? No. As a result of doing the course I have opened myself up to the US market which I have never traded before, and so far the trades I have made have paid off a fair bit of the course costs. With a larger bank the strategy would be much more attractive, so it is something that I believe will reward me down the track. Would I recommend it to a friend? Probably not, unless they had a large bank to invest and had the right mindset to approach it with. It certainly has the potential to be quite lucrative for the right person.




Correct, either wait for compound interest to build up a lot, or plow as much as you can afford into it once you are confident with the strategy.  Note the PP say start with this amount, not it's all you need.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

*tracernet,*

Why not just trade OTM short puts?


----------



## Trojan

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

It is not widely known, but Daniel Kertcher's Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge Fund made no money ($0) in over a year of active trading using all the same strategies he teaches. He was overseeing every trade. All the while, he was charging the public thousands of dollars per participant to attend his seminars to learn how to create wealth in the share/options market?!

Mr Kertcher then handed the Fund over to a company called Mastering Wealth under director Mr Bill Ryan whom he worked with. That company, operating in Castle Hill NSW, lost 95% of public investment capital using all the same strategies they teach and without capital protection.


----------



## DanielKertcher

*Response to Trojan*



Trojan said:


> It is not widely known, but Daniel Kertcher's Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge Fund made no money ($0) in over a year of active trading using all the same strategies he teaches.




Platinum Pursuits (Daniel Kertcher) was involved in the Growth Plus Hedge Fund, in a Customer Relations capacity only, between August 2007 and September 2008 and was never involved in the portfolio management for the product.  

During the period of Platinum Pursuits’ involvement with the product, Platinum Pursuits did provide advice and opinion regarding trading strategies to the portfolio manager Mastering Wealth, but it was at the portfolio manager’s discretion whether or not to implement that advice. 

During the period of Platinum Pursuits involvement, the fund (a USA market based investment product), outperformed the S&P 500 Index in Australian dollar terms (which is how the unit price of the product was quoted) by about 17.5%. In other words, the US market fell roughly 17.5% in Aussie dollar terms over that same time period, while the Growth Plus Hedge Fund had not.  So in that highly negative market environment, an outcome of not losing any client funds over that period was an excellent result, and not only represented a significant outperformance of the market but demonstrated the importance of hedging strategies during market downturns.



Trojan said:


> Mr Kertcher then handed the Fund over to a company called Mastering Wealth under director Mr Bill Ryan whom he worked with. That company, operating in Castle Hill NSW, lost 95% of public investment capital using all the same strategies they teach and without capital protection.




Platinum Pursuits advised fund investors of their intention to cease involvement with the product, and end their role as client relationship manager, prior to their withdrawal in September 2008. The withdrawal from the product was due to the portfolio manager, Mastering Wealth, acquiring sufficient capability to handle the customer relationship management in-house. Once again, Platinum Pursuits was never the investment manager for this product.

Mastering Wealth, acting completely independently of Platinum Pursuits and without any involvement by Platinum Pursuits, after September 2008 did appear to change the trading strategies used according to their investment management discretion as granted in the product disclosure statement. It seems that significant losses were subsequently incurred, however to be fair the global back-drop for these losses was a significant market correction event now known as the Global Financial Crisis.


----------



## PPC NO 1

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi Matteo

Thank you very much for this info. I really appreciate this.


----------



## tracernet

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> *tracernet,*
> 
> Why not just trade OTM short puts?




Yes, I do.  The returns are a lot better BUT if the stock hits the strike or breakeven and you want to close out it costs a LOT more whereas a covered call you just get stopped out.  On the same note, you can't have a guaranteed stop loss so there is more risk if the share gaps below the breakeven.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



tracernet said:


> Yes, I do.  The returns are a lot better BUT if the stock hits the strike or breakeven and you want to close out it costs a LOT more





Costs a lot more in terms of what?

The put will have increasing intrinsic value which means you pay more the the put than you sold it for, but you don't have the stock moving against you.

On the other hand, the CFD portion of the CC is hurting most.

Apart from slightly more contest risk with the CC, if of same strike and expiry, because of synthetic equivalence it's going to cost you the same to exit.



> whereas a covered call you just get stopped out.




Hang on! What gets stopped out? The CFD? Both the CFD and the call? If so you have two stops to trigger, one of those is to close the short option at market. 

I can also set up a contingency order on a short put.... {if underlying trades at _x_, buy to close put at market}

*AKA A Stop Loss!!*

Plus it is only one stop to trigger.



> On the same note, you can't have a guaranteed stop loss so there is more risk if the share gaps below the breakeven.




Will GS (which will still mean a hefty loss on the position) compensate for the additional contest risk incurred on every position taken. I think not. The mathematics of GS mean than IG make a profit overall from the extra cost of GS stop.

IOW they make more from taking the other side of your contest risk than they lose from covering additional stock losses greater than GS point.

Think about that.

On every level, this PP 'strategy' is just a convoluted and more expensive synthetic put.

If people knew their option theory properly they wouldn't fall for it.


----------



## Miner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> Really? Is that the best you can offer? I take a lot of time to give an unbiased account of a course so that people can make an informed decision, and the best you can do is take a pot shot at my decision to take the course? Blimey! The fact is plenty of people will consider taking the course, and hopefully some of them will read this and then have a better understanding of what the strategy involves and whether it is for them or not. This post is not about me!!
> 
> Whether or not I am successful with my trading is irrelevent. Do you really think that the worlds most successful traders just have one strategy? The strategy offered by Daniel is completely different to anything that I currently do, and there is great appeal in having a more passive strategy that can be pretty much set and forget (though as I pointed out that's not really the case). Before this course had even been created I had thought that writing calls on cfd's would be a really good strategy, but thought it was not possible. When I heard about the course I was really interested, and the fact is the only way to be able to use the strategy was to do the course (which meant forking out the $$$'s). I don't like spending that sort of money on a course but I felt on this occasion it was justifiable. And I don't regret it even though I am disappointed with some of the details that were left out of the introductory seminar and promotional material. People have different reasons for doing things, and it's really not your place to question my motives for doing the course.
> 
> As I said before, this can still be a very good strategy for the right person. If I was trading a $100k bank there is a fair chance I would have recouped most if not all of the costs of the course already in only 2 months and that in a market not really conducive to good returns. That's not bad at all, however only time will tell how successful it is over the long term. But traders with smaller accounts, and inexperienced traders, need to think carefully whether it is for them.
> 
> Cheers.




Matteo

I liked both of your postings.
In fact you have been very rational to explain your experience in an unbiased way where as you coughed $3200. 
I often ask the question if people like Daniels are so clever why no tthey make millions themselves and stop charging a course fee. It is like Harvard Professors who teach but can not do it . Classic American economy today where all five top Management institutions and financial institutions are in USA.
I thank you for sharing your experience and do not worry for the sarcastic noise from some people - that is life.


----------



## shanesaunders

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

If anyone is interested I cant attend the trading course and would like to sell my course to someone for $3000

Please contact me if your interested.

Shane


----------



## whau

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi all, I'm an experienced trader of 8-1/2 years. Would like to just give my 2cents opinion. I have traded options, stocks, futures and forex. My personal advice is don't touch options and futures, neither covered calls. Is not the game for most ppl or making good income source. If you really like to start trading, the right step is to learn how to trade forex and stock and again avoid trading forex and stock with OPTIONS*

Why? Because I have done so, tried & persisted for many years. My result is don't follow my mistake. It's not the game for most ppl including myself. The risk is just too high. (your chance of winning is 1 out of 3) compare to  50-50 chance with long/short on regular stock or forex. Some ppl have some success with covered calls but myself I'd better put my money to long/short stock and generate more money than having a large amount of money tide out each month for little premium. 

It's just like playing a roulette, options&futures you are betting on a specific number  to win. (low probability but high reward if win). Forex and Stock on the other hand, you are betting on just red or black. 50-50 chance, winning ratio of just 1:1 

I personally think is wrong to teach ppl options or futures trading as I'd advice everyone I know to avoid. Also it takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to be profitable. Depends on individual. Myself i spent 5 years to pursue my success with options, nearly failed all the time due to high risk, to a state I see no point to continue to lose money so i stopped. Took break for a year, till a friend introduced me to Forex in 2010. I was so enthusiased when she said you didn't have to pay commission and only need a small amount to start. 

So there I knew I already have the knowledge and skills and would like to give it a go. I tried many times with little money to start with. My experience is I tend to get emotion and close out a lot of my big wins with little gains and sometimes with losses. It took me a long time to discover that it was the capital that got me emotion. 
2 months ago, I started to put more capital in. Myself, $8k -$10k to feel comfortable. Trading with almost a lot less emotion and more confident when i see more wins than losses. Eg, i have done 56 trades in August, 47 wins and 9 losses. 58 trades in September, 44 wins and 14 losses. While this month so far done 23 trades with 20 wins and 3 losses. 

I've attached a screenshot of my latest trades. I believe if you take the right advice, right move, do your own research and study. You will eventually be able to earn enough to replace you job income and continue to grow a lot more later. So myself, if I have capital of $100k, I am almost confident that I can turn that amount into $200k or more with Forex and Stock trading. This is just from my personal experience, take it or leave it is totally up to everyone. Happy trading and wish you all be successful one day!! 

Cheers
William


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

whau,

Your premise is all wrong.

Although I do not believe PP offers good options education, it does not make options and future trading invalid.

In fact you contradict yourself by advocating forex, another leveraged derivative.


----------



## whau

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yes they are both leverage and we do need leverage to make money

Except one is derivative leverage and one is margin leverage

Derivative leverage, 
eg, options and futures, your only way of making money is directional trade within a specific period, you have to be extremely good in spotting trend which will move strongly short time to make money. Otherwise options will expire worthless or a lower value than your call/put price (you lose it’s time value even the price stays the same or goes slight above your favor on expiration day). Simply put, when comes to volatility or time when you spot a trading opportunity, my experience, I tend to see high premium, which will increase the risk of buying put/call. High premium means it will discourage you to go for extra month, as you have to pay a lot more for time value. Your other option is you break the rule of going 1 strike price ITM by going for 1-4 strike price out of the money options. Either way, you most likely going to lose money compare to just long/short with margin leverage with 50-50 chance of winning, no expiration day to hold onto your trades. Others tend to teach options straddle, spread trading, I've tried all that, similar result. 

Margin Leverage,
Currently I have shorted google stock with margin (due to market peak), igmarkets is giving 200:1 leverage, means for $1000 I can buy $200,000 stock. But do I really trade $200,000 on stock. The answer is absolutely no. I only trade $5-10k worth of stock if I only have $1000 capital. I dont have to stress about getting margin call and have my trade close out by the broker. That btw never occured to me. The same approach I use, I lost money with options. It's hard to explain but it's up to anyone who'd like to experiment themselves to decide how they can profit from trading options. It's not my game for sure. 

I can give you one example, in 2008 financial crisis, a friend who used margin leverage to short google the same time I bought put options, The result-  she made very good money while my put options on google expired worthless when google dropped more than $50 to my favour. The reason i remembered that 1 ITM put options was selling way too high (around $35.xx put for 1 ITM ).  So much I decided to break the rule by buying 3-4 strike price OTM put options,  same goes to many stocks (crazy premium). Even DK teaches you to find a good premium with little time value. In reality, you may want to experiment yourself to see if you can spot stocks with little time value during time of high volatility. I’m not saying that options you can’t make money. It’s just not the game for everyone. I am sure they are ppl who can trade well with options. Myself if I have to pay $3500 for 1 put options giving only 3-4 weeks to expiration, I would rather short the stock for $20k with margin and set a stoploss of $35 on the stock price.  

High margin leverage is dangerous as I have learnt, for brokers, they would like to give us 400:1 and 200:1, but for professional traders, we only like to set our account with 20:1 or 50:1 margin leverage. 

You don't have to take my word for it, it's just my personal experience of many years. 

Cheers
William


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

We need leverage to make money?

Therein lies your problem William. First and foremost, one must decide their risk and money management/position sizing parameters. Once that is decided, leverage becomes almost irrelevant. Conventional trading wisdom says 2% risk per trade maximum. That means the same number of GOOG CFDs should be used as shares.

CFDs should therefore offer some other advantage over shares.

As far as options go, they are non-linear and complex with differing risks..... and rewards. The high premium you mention creates a risk, but also offers an opportunity.

I will agree that a straight out directional/trend/swing trade may be better traded with a linear instrument, but there are instances where options may offer an advantage. The traders job is discerning which instrument to use or to stand aside from the opportunity.

I can see from your GOOG put example that you made a mistake with your Greeks. That's not the instrument's fault, that is your fault. I guess the counterparty made money from your trade... but you did not take the lesson from that, just blamed the instrument... You tried to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

In the self same crash, I used options to acquire selected banking shares, sell premium and modify my risk/reward profile. Having extracted my initial capital, I have $0 dollars in a share holding that continues to offer opportunities to extract cash via options.

Yes they are more difficult to trade and most should probably stay away. I have spoken out against seminar clowns promoting single strategy "panaceas". No one strategy suits every time market, but there is a time for every strategy. 

If you just want to trade direction without complication, options are not your instrument, but they work well for others types of trading.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi William,
Firstly, well done on so many winning trades. 
Im not sure I necessarily agree with your view on a few things but thats what makes up the market, people with differing views, otherwise known as buyers and sellers.

While leverage can be very dangerous, I dont see it as a big issue if strong money management and risk management techniques are adopted.
Options arent the enemy either. Im assuming the options youve been exposed to have been for a matter of weeks rather than months? Have you ever considered LEAPS?
Also when it comes to Forex options, depending on Vol, they can be very cheap.

Im not one that studies the Greeks nor care too much for them, what I watch is Volatility, and keep an eye on Delta, Theta etc. In the end of the day, my philosophy is when Volatility is low, Options are for buying, and when it is high, options are for selling.

You make some very nice points too.
Personally I dont mind DK's method of investing as I prefer to trade fundamentally and the short term noise, technicals etc do my head in. I feel like I may as well be reading tea leaves when I look at things from a short term nature.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I will make this as short as possible.

A very good friend of mine alerted me to this forum and I am glad she did.

When Matteo mentioned the cost of $3,200, I remembered that I paid the same amount for Daniel Kertcher's Tradeability Course in 2009.

Daniel said then, and he has been proven right, that women make better traders than men. Honestly, I don't want to make any sexist remarks (especially with a name like Alvin Purple), but women are much better at following rules, while men tend to regard trading as an ego trip, a battle that has to be won with sheer bravado.

Once I realised that, I allowed my feminine side to predominate and have achieved very consistent, positive results for the last three years following Daniel's teachings and the trade recommendations contained in his monthly income report, which, at $490 per year is very good value and much cheaper than other publications.

The course materials of Trading Pursuits are of high quality, the email support offered is excellent and how anybody could even remotely associate the word "scam" with Daniel or Trading Pursuits is beyond the comprehension of a reasonable person. Ask yourself this: Would the authorities  allow Daniel to operate in this country if he was a scammer? Obviously not.

The most important lesson I  have learnt is that you absolutely must "paper trade" in a demo account for at least three months. I did that, made a few mistakes, learned from them and never made those mistakes again once I started trading with real money.

I can now look back on three years of successful trading. There has not been a month where I have made a loss and the average return has been in the vicinity of 30% +  p.a. which I personally find very satisfactory.

I am happy to recommend Daniel's course. And please, follow the rules. (I am not a licensed financial advisor)


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, I would not just be glad you were alerted to this forum.

I would be very glad.

Read this.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm

gg


----------



## Pager

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



When it comes to Educators and these workshops/courses that promote being able to trade profitably like Platinum Pursuits, Optionetics, Safety in the Market etc etc I don’t agree necessarily that they are scammers, but would be more inclined to say they package and sell products that a bit of reading/investigation and web searches most people couldn’t come up with themselves and for very little cost.

Trading however takes more than having a good method, you need the right mindset and the discipline to stick to a plan and this is were most people who do these courses will fail and then blame the system, most as well are beginners and have totally unrealistic expectations, mind you that’s not helped by the spruikers who make the promise of easy money through minimal effort once you have done the course and as anyone who has traded for a number of years will tell you there’s no such thing as easy money in this game or any other come to think of it.

One thing that does puzzle me when theres a thread about a certain course or seminar, the amount of people who come on saying how great the course/workshop was and never post again


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I will make this as short as possible.
> 
> A very good friend of mine alerted me to this forum and I am glad she did.






Garpal Gumnut said:


> Alvin, I would not just be glad you were alerted to this forum.
> 
> I would be very glad.
> 
> Read this.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm
> 
> gg




You were so glad to be directed to this forum and you have not replied, so I will increase your gladness by quoting from the 730 Report on Daniel Kertcher, just to increase your gladness, for no other reason.



> TIM LESTER: Daniel Kertcher took his seminars across the Tasman to windy Wellington two years ago.
> 
> PHIL MITCHELL: A 100 per cent money back guarantee.
> 
> TIM LESTER: With an advertisement that caught the eye of NZ consumer journalist Phil Mitchell.
> 
> PHIL MITCHELL: They're saying I can make 331 per cent return in three months.
> 
> GEK MUI LEE, WEALTH SEMINAR STUDENT: Financial independence, you know, you could give up your job.
> 
> You could just live on trading full time eventually.
> 
> TIM LESTER: So Wellington resident Gek Mui Lee enrolled in a Daniel Kertcher seminar.
> 
> GEK MUI LEE: He once said if you are quadriplegic and all you could do is blink, you could do options trading.
> 
> I beg to differ.
> 
> TIM LESTER: Phil Mitchell did the same course.
> 
> He and Gek Mui Lee both then followed up with fellow students almost a year later.
> 
> GEK MUI LEE: Maybe two of them were just breaking even.
> 
> The rest of the people lost money or were too afraid to try.
> 
> PHIL MITCHELL, NZ CONSUMER JOURNALIST: Overwhelmingly, people had lost money and a great deal of money and very quickly.
> 
> TIM LESTER: How much money?
> 
> PHIL MITCHELL: An average loss of $10,000.
> 
> TIM LESTER: Though he calculates that one person did really well - Daniel Kertcher, selling students his seminar package for a hefty NZ dollar price.
> 
> PHIL MITCHELL: 65 times $4,250 is not a bad return for three days work.
> 
> That is nearly $300,000.






> TIM LESTER: Phil Mitchell's article in NZ's consumer magazine stirred Daniel Kertcher to threaten legal action.
> 
> He insists one third of students in the Wellington course in question made money.
> 
> And another 12 didn't even bother to trade.
> 
> That still leaves plenty of losers.
> 
> But Daniel Kertcher isn't apologising.
> 
> Rather, he has organised seminars for five Australian capital cities in the next few months.
> 
> If you can't get to see him, no problem.
> 
> There are plenty of others selling their own gold maps and they're not hard to spot.




All gladness to you Alvin.

gg


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear Garpal Gumnut,

sorry I couldn't reply earlier but this weekend was options expiry weekend and I was kept very busy collecting all the profits. You see, this month has been one of my best months since I started trading seriously (ie with real money) about three years ago.

I was fully aware of that 2004 7.30 Report item which ended up proving nothing. I think it was a vain attempt to outdo Current Affairs and This Day Tonight.

I agree there are a lot of scammers and so-called "gurus" out there and I have learnt to stay well clear of them.

When I decided to do Daniel's course I did my due diligence and when I found that he was not on any authority's "Wanted" list, I was happy to part with my $3200 and I am glad I did. I have never had a losing month and my annualised returns are always well above 30 % p.a.  (and I mean very well above). My initial investment has been returned to me one hundredfold.

It is, of  course, possible, that some people take the same course, but don't follow the rules, go off at a tangent and then are wondering why they are losing money. Believe me, I know some people who have done just that.

Did I mention that trading is 80 % psychology (also known as "mindset") and 20 % strategy? That is an absolute fact and I am sure that the likes of Tony Robbins, Chris Howard, Pat Mesiti, Dr. John DeMartini etc. etc. will wholeheartedly agree. I have been to many of their free seminars and got many of their free DVDs. I never found it necessary to invest the thousands of dollars these guys ask for their paid seminars and workshops as I have learnt the formula some time ago: Find your passion, make you passion your profession and take massive action.

I am not likely to post just once and then never again. Most likely I'll post again after the February option expiry which is on 16 February, unless something worthwhile to talk about comes up in the meantime.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Zzz...zzz...zzz...zzz

The standard here is to substantiate claims. You can do that with brokers statements confidentially submitted to the site admin., or posting trades as you put them on.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

What is inescapable with any option trading, whether promulgated by a schmarmy spruiker or by some clown on the interwebzzz, is that options will always conform closely to one or another options pricing model (nuances duly noted).

The PP program is, at its core, a synthetic version of bog standard (i.e. natural) strategy, viz, the naked OTM put. Returns will conform to those leptokurtic probabilities of the natural strategy.

There is no way of getting around that, not even with clever cliches' and white patent shoes.


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> What is inescapable with any option trading, whether promulgated by a schmarmy spruiker or by some clown on the interwebzzz, is that options will always conform closely to one or another options pricing model (nuances duly noted).
> 
> The PP program is, at its core, a synthetic version of bog standard (i.e. natural) strategy, viz, the naked OTM put. Returns will conform to those leptokurtic probabilities of the natural strategy.
> 
> There is no way of getting around that, not even with clever cliches' and white patent shoes.





Wayne, I doubt Alvin would have any idea what you mean...  And the money he's collected may not cover losses on the stock (or whatever else he has in place) to cover the short but, if it's anything like I was taught on covered call type trading, you don't look at that.  You only count the proceeds of the short.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well Daniel..... oops, I mean Alvin  has checked in since since my invitation to substantiate his claims of 30% + returns and implied >$320,000 profits.

As I suspected, nothing.

It reminds me of the days of the "Dimitri Strategy" (as if nobody ever thought of bull put spreads before  ). They all thought they found the money tree, until Mr Market decided their arrogant stupid @55es needed to be taught a lesson.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Dear Garpal Gumnut,
> 
> 
> When I decided to do Daniel's course I did my due diligence and when I found that he was not on any authority's "Wanted" list, I was happy to part with my $3200 and I am glad I did. *I have never had a losing month and my annualised returns are always well above 30 % p.a. * (and I mean very well above). My initial investment has been returned to me one hundredfold.




Proof Alvin, proof.

Talk is cheap Alvin.

gg


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear Gumnut,

whatever do you mean?

Didn't I just tell you that Daniel's system works well for me?

What do you mean by "proof"?  How do you prove anything?

I have no axe to grind and I have no particular interest in promoting Daniel, or anyone else for that matter.

I DO know, however, that other traders who did the course with me, and are also following the rules, are achieving similar results to mine.

I ALSO know that some traders who are not following the rules, occasionally make huge profits, but quite often they also make large losses and it appears that their losses are bigger than their profits.

My results are roughly in line with Daniel's  AUDITED results. Is an AUDITED result, posted on an official website and subject to scrutiny by the authorities, enough proof for you, Gumnut?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear wayneL and sails,

what you call leptokurtic I may call platykurtic, but be that as it may, the only proof that matters is in the results.

Why would I be so stupid as to hand over my confidential broker's  statement to anyone? Not that I ever would, but if I did, you doubting Thomases would still not believe it and say it was photoshopped (as it  could be, of  course)

BTW, you are very good at mathematics, the figure of my  accumulated profits is almost spot on.

If I posted my trades before I put them on I would be in breach of contract. Surely, you don't want me to break the law, do you?

Daniel, however, does post his trades before he puts them on in his Monthly Income Report to which his students can subscribe for an annual fee of $490.00.

His results are AUDITED and published on his website where they are open to scrutiny by the authorities. I am not aware that any of the Australian authorities has ever questioned Daniel's AUDITED results.

Now, wayneL and sails, I don't know whether this is enough proof for you, but that is all there is.

As we are just about halfway through the February trades, I did a quick check and found that I am on track for another good monthly result, somewhere in the vicinity of $10K, and that is net of all costs.

Have a nice day, all.

Alvin Purple


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Dear wayneL and sails,
> 
> what you call leptokurtic I may call platykurtic, but be that as it may, the only proof that matters is in the results.
> 
> Why would I be so stupid as to hand over my confidential broker's  statement to anyone? Not that I ever would, but if I did, you doubting Thomases would still not believe it and say it was photoshopped (as it  could be, of  course)
> 
> BTW, you are very good at mathematics, the figure of my  accumulated profits is almost spot on.
> 
> If I posted my trades before I put them on I would be in breach of contract. Surely, you don't want me to break the law, do you?
> 
> Daniel, however, does post his trades before he puts them on in his Monthly Income Report to which his students can subscribe for an annual fee of $490.00.
> 
> His results are AUDITED and published on his website where they are open to scrutiny by the authorities. I am not aware that any of the Australian authorities has ever questioned Daniel's AUDITED results.
> 
> Now, wayneL and sails, I don't know whether this is enough proof for you, but that is all there is.
> 
> As we are just about halfway through the February trades, I did a quick check and found that I am on track for another good monthly result, somewhere in the vicinity of $10K, and that is net of all costs.
> 
> Have a nice day, all.
> 
> Alvin Purple




Lulzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

lol, had a look at Spectrum Live who do charge some interest rates:
High vol customers do get 25-50% off though.

Aus stock CFDs: 20bp, min $30.
expensive.

ASX S&P 200 Index CFD: $20 ticket fee and 4pt spread? 
Holy crap

US Oppies: $2/contract
IB charges 25c-75c


FX spread:	  	 
AUDUSD 	5 	  	 
EURUSD 	5
USDJPY 	5

nuff said.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Dear wayneL and sails,
> 
> what you call leptokurtic I may call platykurtic, but be that as it may, the only proof that matters is in the results.
> 
> Why would I be so stupid as to hand over my confidential broker's  statement to anyone? Not that I ever would, but if I did, you doubting Thomases would still not believe it and say it was photoshopped (as it  could be, of  course)
> 
> BTW, you are very good at mathematics, the figure of my  accumulated profits is almost spot on.
> 
> If I posted my trades before I put them on I would be in breach of contract. Surely, you don't want me to break the law, do you?
> 
> Daniel, however, does post his trades before he puts them on in his Monthly Income Report to which his students can subscribe for an annual fee of $490.00.
> 
> His results are AUDITED and published on his website where they are open to scrutiny by the authorities. I am not aware that any of the Australian authorities has ever questioned Daniel's AUDITED results.
> 
> Now, wayneL and sails, I don't know whether this is enough proof for you, but that is all there is.
> 
> As we are just about halfway through the February trades, I did a quick check and found that I am on track for another good monthly result, somewhere in the vicinity of $10K, and that is net of all costs.
> 
> Have a nice day, all.
> 
> Alvin Purple




1/ I don't think anyone could reasonably call leptokurtic, platykurtic...unless on time frames that are too short.

2/ You cannot fool the option nerds here with claims of profit, as we are proficient with distributions, delta, gamma etc etc. There are no secrets and all short puts, whether synthetic or natural, whether tricked up with stop losses, guaranteed or not, will conform to distributions as per those Greeks allow.

3/ There is nothing inherently wrong with the short put, but it is picking up pennies in front of a steam roller. It can be learnt for free off the interwebzzz.... sorry if you paid 5k  or whatever for it, but what you've got is a convoluted form of a single natural strategy. Many of us, including myself, use the short put (either natural or synthetic) when appropriate.

Hardly any (if any at all that aren't subsidized by seminar clowning) long term traders use it exclusively.

Basic stuff all tarted up like a pox doctor's clerk really.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear wayneL,

Short time frames? Of course we are talking about short time frames.

delta? gamma?  I never worry about those. I look at the alpha and omega and don't bother about the small stuff in between.

Short puts? Where did that come from? I certainly don't use them.

Remember my name is Alvin Purple, and if you have seen any or all of my movies (and I hope you have, most people have, you know) you'd know that I'm a simple character, I certainly don't like complicated stuff.And that is why I like Daniel's recommendations: Short,  simple and straight to the point. And most important of all: very profitable.

Btw, I did not pay $5000, I paid $3200, and, as I said, this has paid off 100 times over. 

In the end the only thing that matters is how much profit you make each month. And if you, like I, make in excess of $10K a month consistently, then you are doing better than 95 % of traders.

I kept my reply as simple as possible, so that even you can understand it.

Have a really nice day,

Alvin Purple


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

And another thing, dear wayneL and sails,

you both keep harping on about NAKED OTM PUTS.

Have you any idea what Daniel is teaching?

While Daniel mentions PUTS in passing, he mainly teaches trading with COVERED  DEEP-IN-THE-MONEY CALLS.

COVERED is the opposite of NAKED
OTM is the opposite of ITM
PUTS are the opposite of CALLS.

So there!!!


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Btw, I did not pay $5000, I paid $3200, and, as I said, this has paid off 100 times over.




So you have made 3.2 million? I would love to see a broker statement proving this.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Proof Alvin, proof.
> 
> Talk is cheap Alvin.
> 
> gg






Alvin Purple said:


> Dear wayneL,
> 
> Short time frames? Of course we are talking about short time frames.
> 
> delta? gamma?  I never worry about those. I look at the alpha and omega and don't bother about the small stuff in between.
> 
> Short puts? Where did that come from? I certainly don't use them.
> 
> Remember my name is Alvin Purple, and if you have seen any or all of my movies (and I hope you have, most people have, you know) you'd know that I'm a simple character, I certainly don't like complicated stuff.And that is why I like Daniel's recommendations: Short,  simple and straight to the point. And most important of all: very profitable.
> 
> Btw, I did not pay $5000, I paid $3200, and, as I said, this has paid off 100 times over.
> 
> In the end the only thing that matters is how much profit you make each month. And if you, like I, make in excess of $10K a month consistently, then you are doing better than 95 % of traders.
> 
> I kept my reply as simple as possible, so that even you can understand it.
> 
> Have a really nice day,
> 
> Alvin Purple






prawn_86 said:


> So you have made 3.2 million? I would love to see a broker statement proving this.




Your skill has left me near speechless Alvin.

One wonders why you post, with such millions for such little effort.

I can only quote Katharine Whitehorn, a noted wit.

"The great rule is not to talk about money with people who have much more or much less than you."

And to add, " and with people who recognise bull**** about making money "

gg


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> And another thing, dear wayneL and sails,
> 
> you both keep harping on about NAKED OTM PUTS.
> 
> Have you any idea what Daniel is teaching?
> 
> While Daniel mentions PUTS in passing, he mainly teaches trading with COVERED  DEEP-IN-THE-MONEY CALLS.
> 
> COVERED is the opposite of NAKED
> OTM is the opposite of ITM
> PUTS are the opposite of CALLS.
> 
> So there!!!




So for $3200, DK didn't even teach you option pricing theory, put-call parity and synthetic relationships?

Good God man, spend another $50 and buy yourself a basic option book and education yourself.

Put = call.... read up on it. LOLOL.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> delta? gamma?  I never worry about those. I look at the alpha and omega and don't bother about the small stuff in between.




Saved for posterity


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> And another thing, dear wayneL and sails,
> 
> you both keep harping on about NAKED OTM PUTS.
> 
> Have you any idea what Daniel is teaching?
> 
> While Daniel mentions PUTS in passing, he mainly teaches trading with COVERED  DEEP-IN-THE-MONEY CALLS.
> 
> COVERED is the opposite of NAKED
> OTM is the opposite of ITM
> PUTS are the opposite of CALLS.
> 
> So there!!!




Oh this is so funny...

Do you not know that covered deep-in-the-money calls have the same risk profile as a naked otm put?  Do you ever look at a risk graph? Do you understand synthetic relationships in options?  

I read one of Charles Cottle's books which turned the lights on for me.  If you think naked otm puts are too risky to trade but you are trading covered deep ITM calls, then you have no idea of the risk you are taking on.  And, if you are borrowing for your shares to cover your itm calls, you will be paying considerably more in interest than what you would pay for an otm put.  AND you will be paying more brokerage with two positions instead of one and often shares are way more expensive in brokerage.

But that's OK - you are making money for your broker and your lender.  Remain ignorant, but don't make a bigger fool of yourself.  Get properly educated in options if you are going to trade them.  And I mean that sincerely.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

That is for all of you:

I have just realised where your problem is:

I have never claimed to have made millions. What I have said, and what I keep saying is that my course fee of $3200 has been returned to me one hundred fold, that is I made $320,000.00.

Your mathematics leave a lot to be desired if you can't carry out a simple multiplication. One of you brainiacs comes up with a figure of $3.2 million and none of you other brainiacs picks it up.

Why the heck would I want to learn more about option theory? Grey, my friend is all theory (who said that?)

Daniel teaches practical options trading, it's a system that works and thousands of his students make money with it.

As I said before, I am Alvin Purple and I am a simple character and I certainly don't like to complicate simple things. I do as I am told and at the end of every expiry period I just collect my money.

By the way, brokerage on both shares and options is a negligible amount and the money I borrow to buy CFDs only costs 2.71 % p.a. in interest. When you are consistently making 30% p.a.+, month after month, these small amounts are not a problem.

Take this month, for example. Expiry is in three days from now and ALL of Daniel's trades for February expiry are in profit. So, come Saturday morning, I'll be collecting another $10K+.

And guess what?  While you guys are worrying about gammas and deltas and kappas and lamdas, and theorising about synthetic stuff and what have you, I will simply be studying Daniel's recommendations and place my trades for March next Monday or Tuesday. 

Have a really nice day, you all.

Alvin Purple


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> . When you are consistently making 30% p.a.+, month after month, these small amounts are not a problem.




So at what stage/size does this fabled strategy no longer work?

If you are making 30% pa consistently then you are amongst the best traders in the World and should be leveraging up working for a hedge fund which pays you a salary of tens of millions of dollars....


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

*LOL*

Alvin,

I every endeavour there are four stages of competency

1/ The unconscious incompetent - That is to say the person who doesn't know what they don't know.

2/ The conscious incompetent - That is to say the person who knows that there is lots they don't know.

3/ The conscious competent - That is to say the person that knows lots but has to think about it.

4/ The unconscious competent - That is to say the person for whom it is all second nature.

In the options world, you are at stage one. This is the only way to explain that you eschew the knowledge to quantify risk and reward via the Greeks. This is important in non-linear instruments such as options.

*********

As discussed, deep ITM covered calls are simply a synthetic naked put, a very simple strategy known and used occasionally by options traders and professionals the world over.

It is a valid strategy to be used when market conditions suit, but it is no panacea, otherwise all professionals would just trade naked puts or it's synthetic equivalents systematically every month....

They just don't.

These are smart guys and gals... smarter that you or Daniel.

Do you think they might know something you don't?

You'll collect most months Alvin, that is the probability characteristics of the strategy. But that is actually irrelevent, believe it or not.

What matters is the total losses versus total gains, AKA the *expectancy equation..*. it is snatching pennies from the lion's mouth.

How will you cope when the market chomps down on your arm?


----------



## waza1960

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> Alvin,
> 
> I every endeavour there are four stages of competency
> 
> 1/ The unconscious incompetent - That is to say the person who doesn't know what they don't know.
> 
> 2/ The conscious incompetent - That is to say the person who knows that there is lots they don't know.
> 
> 3/ The conscious competent - That is to say the person that knows lots but has to think about it.
> 
> 4/ The unconscious competent - That is to say the person for whom it is all second nature.




 Thats pure gold .....are you sure there's not a preceding category for Alvin lets see.....
 The ignorant unconscious incompetent- That is to say the person who doesn't know what they don't know doesn't care and tells everybody they know everything


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

For instance, if not via the Greeks, how does one quantify the non-linear risks and rewards of the  naked put (or synthetic equivalents) as opposed to the linear RR of the underlying.

Naked put traders (negative Gamma) have made easy profits this last period in the market, but linear instrument (and positive Gamma) traders have done so much better. See my blog for real time evidence of this.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

Would you at all be kind enough to post your results here on a monthly basis?

Could you include the actual trades as well?

Please understand that this is not to question your sincerity. It would be great for all to see just how Daniels strategy copes over the long run.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



waza1960 said:


> Thats pure gold .....are you sure there's not a preceding category for Alvin lets see.....
> The ignorant unconscious incompetent- That is to say the person who doesn't know what they don't know doesn't care and tells everybody they know everything





Hmmm, I suppose there should be a category for the *intentionally* incompetent.


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> you both keep harping on about NAKED OTM PUTS.
> 
> Have you any idea what Daniel is teaching?
> 
> While Daniel mentions PUTS in passing, he mainly teaches trading with COVERED DEEP-IN-THE-MONEY CALLS.





this is just pure gold....


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear Garpal Gumnut, wayneL, prawn_86, sails, waza1960 and ftw129,

as I am off to the Gold Coast for a couple of days R & R, I thought I had better write one more post and answer any questions you have asked so far or haven't even put yet.

prawn_86, I seriously am concerned about your ability to handle large numbers. If you cannot multiply 3200 by 100 without being wrong by a factor of ten, how can you ever be confident of being a successful options trader? Digging ditches is probably something you are more suited for.

I am glad you think that I am amongst the best traders in the world, but I do not claim to be. I certainly don't want to work for a hedge fund, sounds to much like a 9 to 5 job. I only want to work a few minutes a day and maybe a couple of hours on expiry weekends.

wayneL, you seem to really want to put people in little pigeon holes. Make sure you at least get  your grammar  right. It is "unconsciously incompetent" etc. etc. And I don't actually care what people call me or how they classify me, as long as I make good profits every month. And I mean EVERY month. 

Total losses? The worst outcome is "break even" when the Guaranteed Stop Loss Order is applied correctly.

How will I cope when the market chomps down on my arm? That has happened twice so far, in August and October 2011, and I am sure it will happen again at some point in the future. What happened then is that I was stopped out of some but not all trades at "break even" and although the monthly profit was lower than usual, there was still a profit at the end of the month.

waza1960, no, I don't tell everybody that I know everything because I don't. In fact, I know very little, but I know enough to make in excess of $10K a month consistently.

ftw129, you really want me to post my results on a monthly basis? If I did, nobody here would believe it anyway, but I may post next week what I made in February.

You want to know whether Daniel's strategy works well over the long run? Daniel has been teaching this strategy since 2001, he lets his students know the trades he is putting on BEFORE he puts them on and he publishes his  AUDITED results on his website. If you really want to know how Daniel's strategy works over the long run, I suggest you go to his website and look up his AUDITED results.

I know, I know, this post will again stir some of you up and you will call me all sorts of names and you can call me anything, but don't call me late for dinner. It really doesn't matter to me, I am happy to remain blissfully ignorant.

Some of my friends make $60K to $80K a year but they have to work really hard for it. I don't work hard at all but I make a lot more than that. I think that's only fair.

So, amigos, I'm off to the Gold Coast. I'm sure there'll be plenty of replies when I get back next week.

Have some really nice days,

Alvin Purple


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



village idiot said:


> this is just pure gold....




Of course it is. That's why I said it.

Alvin Purple


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Total losses? The worst outcome is "break even" when the Guaranteed Stop Loss Order is applied correctly.




Care to elaborate? 

Enjoy your break


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Apparently these trades can miraculously circumvent delta skyquke.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Sounds like Alvin has found the holy grail of money making. Lucky him


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

What gets me is that there would probably be hundreds of people doing Kertcher's courses - why is there only one person making all this money?  Why isn't this thread full of them?  If they appear out of nowhere now, it will make it look even more like a set up job...

Or is it because the money is actually being earned from selling Kertcher's courses?  Of course, we will never know whether Alvin actually makes all this money or where it comes from as there is no way of proving for sure.

If Alvin is really making all this money from trading, then Kertcher should be charging 100 times the price for a guaranteed income without risk of loss - or as has been said - he should simply set up a managed fund and rake in the millions.

Something is very fishy...


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Ultimatum time....put up or shut up.

I say we shut the thread down if Alvin can't post an equity curve, verify the account with Admin.

CanOz


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Proof Alvin, proof.
> 
> Talk is cheap Alvin.
> 
> gg






CanOz said:


> Ultimatum time....put up or shut up.
> 
> I say we shut the thread down if Alvin can't post an equity curve, verify the account with Admin.
> 
> CanOz




I am in total agreement.

Shut the thread down, he will not provide proof.

It just encourages those with too little sense, too much money, or both, to get involved.

gg


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

would rather see his trade history , say this months and last months positions , and the ones from aug/sept 2011


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

For anyone perusing this thread wondering about Daniel's course i would be sceptical as to why they wont provide trading records to one of the mods here, or even post a series of live trades publicly. In fact i dont think Alvin has posted in any other thread, so obviously he doesnt beleive in contributing widely to the ASF community.

If it really is so easy, why is Daniel even selling the course and why is Alvin here defending it? Surely, with compounding, Daniel has made 10's of millions of dollars by now 

There is not one example throughout all of history where increased financial reward did not come with increased risk. If as Alvin claims he is making hundreds of thousand of dollars risk free, this is not only impossible, but he has effectively broken every financial theory and rule in the book, it would be like proving gravity doesnt exist.


----------



## explod

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> ftw129, you really want me to post my results on a monthly basis? If I did, nobody here would believe it anyway, but I may post next week what I made in February.




How much you made is irrelevant anyway, just show us the stock names with entry and exit prices of the last full month so that we can see you percentage gain.  But to prove that we will then want your entry prices of your trades for next month for us to follow and if as good as you say then someone may become interested.

Simple, put up in this simple manner or shut up.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> For anyone perusing this thread wondering about Daniel's course i would be sceptical as to why they wont provide trading records to one of the mods here, or even post a series of live trades publicly. In fact i dont think Alvin has posted in any other thread, so obviously he doesnt beleive in contributing widely to the ASF community.
> 
> If it really is so easy, why is Daniel even selling the course and why is Alvin here defending it? Surely, with compounding, Daniel has made 10's of millions of dollars by now
> 
> *There is not one example throughout all of history where increased financial reward did not come with increased risk. If as Alvin claims he is making hundreds of thousand of dollars risk free, this is not only impossible, but he has effectively broken every financial theory and rule in the book, it would be like proving gravity doesnt exist.*




There's an A1 post right there. Absolutely bang on Prawn.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> wayneL, you seem to really want to put people in little pigeon holes. Make sure you at least get  your grammar  right. It is "unconsciously incompetent" etc. etc. And I don't actually care what people call me or how they classify me, as long as I make good profits every month. And I mean EVERY month.
> 
> Total losses? The worst outcome is "break even" when the Guaranteed Stop Loss Order is applied correctly.




Well now this interesting. *Every trade* starts at break even less contest risk. So at inception you are already less than break even. So you are immediately stopped out?

Ok let's let the trade develop a bit. Because you have +delta in a synthetic naked put, any immediate move down will have you in a loss situation... so how does this break even stop work when you are immediately underwater.

An Orangutan would realise that you haveto be in profit first to be able to ahve a break even stop. A break even stop is a logical absurdity if you are in an open loss situation.

Additionally, IIRC a CFD gauaranteed stop must be at least 5% below the entry price. If your stop level is hit before theta has eaten away those deltas, you have crystalized a loss there matey.

Any lame-witted knucklehead will be able to see the mechanics of this with any options modeller, but somehow, as well as turning water to wine, walking on water and feeding the 5,000 with a mouldy loaf of bread and a decomposing blowfish, Kertcher is able to overcome the reality of the option pricing model.

Any nooooobs reading this and attracted by this impossibility, invest $100 in a Hoadley OPM and learn how utterly fallacious this person's claims are.



> How will I cope when the market chomps down on my arm? That has happened twice so far, in August and October 2011, and I am sure it will happen again at some point in the future. What happened then is that I was stopped out of some but not all trades at "break even" and although the monthly profit was lower than usual, there was still a profit at the end of the month.




I am calling you out on this Alvin, There is not a retail options trader on this end of the milky way who never has a losing month. This is just USDA Grade A bullshyte. Pure camel dung. Laughable.

I have all the evidence I need to know a/ this guy doesn't trade at all or b/ is lying through his @ss.

There, now you have some impetus to prove me wrong. Go for it.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> There is not one example throughout all of history where increased financial reward did not come with increased risk. If as Alvin claims he is making hundreds of thousand of dollars risk free, this is not only impossible, but he has effectively broken every financial theory and rule in the book, it would be like proving gravity doesnt exist.




My 2c, Alvin claimed he has been in the PP stuff since 2009. If so, it's totally possible that he has experienced great returns without a major drawdown from selling volatility in stocks. Plenty of funds which are short vol in stocks have achieved this kind of return, exhibit A would be the PIMCO stocksPLUS series.




Obviously selling VXX would be similar. 30% PA returns have definitely been feasible since 2009. 




'cos it seems like a few here are disputing it's possible. I just wanted to point out that it's totally within the realm of returns for selling volatility.

Anyone reading this as a defense of PP or Daniel K is wrong, I still think it's a scam.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> I'd point out that Alvin didn't actually say he is making the money risk free. You kind of put those words in his mouth.
> 
> My 2c, Alvin claimed he has been in the PP stuff since 2009. If so, it's totally possible that he has experienced great returns without a major drawdown from selling volatility in stocks. Plenty of funds which are short vol in stocks have achieved this kind of return, exhibit A would be the PIMCO stocksPLUS series.
> 
> Obviously selling VXX would be similar. 30% PA returns have definitely been feasible since 2009.
> 
> 'cos it seems like a few here are disputing it's possible. I just wanted to point out that it's totally within the realm of returns for selling volatility.
> 
> Anyone reading this as a defense of PP or Daniel K is wrong, I still think it's a scam.




Sinner, Alvin is claiming by implication that he has never had a losing month.

There is nothing wrong with trading naked puts or their synthetics, it is a valid strategy fully capable of making a profit long term.

But the suggestion here is that you just put the trades on and collect the cash as expiry. Your graphs show that not to be the case, even if long term profitable.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Sinner, Alvin is claiming by implication that he has never had a losing month.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with trading naked puts or their synthetics, it is a valid strategy fully capable of making a profit long term.
> 
> But the suggestion here is that you just put the trades on and collect the cash as expiry. Your graphs show that not to be the case, even if long term profitable.




The thing is though, there is plenty of academic research that says the same thing, "consistent sellers of index vols can generate strong RaR". If you look at the PUT and BXM indexes, that is precisely what they do, systematic vol selling, collect the cash on expiry.

I think it is possible, with the exception of 2011, to have been selling vol since 2009 without a losing month.

:badsmile: devils advocate end.

Obviously it's a logical fallacy along the lines of recency bias to believe this can continue indefinitely. Arc Sine Law and all that.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> The thing is though, there is plenty of academic research that says the same thing, "consistent sellers of index vols can generate strong RaR". If you look at the PUT and BXM indexes, that is precisely what they do, systematic vol selling, collect the cash on expiry.
> 
> I think it is *possible*, with the exception of 2011, to have been selling vol since 2009 without a losing month.
> 
> :badsmile: devils advocate end.
> 
> Obviously it's a logical fallacy along the lines of recency bias to believe this can continue indefinitely. Arc Sine Law and all that.




Possible, but improbable.

It is also *possible* to trade long stock in a swing system... or day trade... to not have a losing month for extended periods.... and probably do better than selling vol.

But probability catches up in the end.... it doesn't mean something is a loser, but that one should mitigate.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> that one should mitigate.




Yea OK I must admit, I do not think the costs of CFD with GSL would allow for above market RaR selling vol.


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I was taught covered calls by a spruiker (got sucked in a few years ago!)......and they were only looking at the short option as income.  Any losses on the stock were not considered. It was explained that was like owning a rental house where the value would fluctuate but you keep collecting your rent.

So then the premium you collect is then calculated as a percentage of the price of the stock as that was your investment and not the entire trading account.

There was one couple who did this same seminar before me and, because they were using margin lending for their stock, the premiums from the short options were going into a different account.  They took this to a bank as "income" and they got a loan for a house... From the bank's perspective, it looked like they were getting regular income.

And all this was in a predominantly volatile sideways market at the time on Newscorp so the premiums were quite healthy.  How these people got on in a fast bear market, I don't know as we did not stick around once we realised the large downside risk as protective puts needed to be far away so that the call premium was not eroded.

I don't know if that's how Kertchner plays it, but likely it is similar albeit it with CFDs.  A guaranteed stop loss would be no different to a protective put, imo, just probably more expensive.

FWIW, that might give some insight as to how these apparent large returns are achieved by not deducting losses on the stock or CFDs from the premium "income".


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> If it really is so easy, why is Daniel even selling the course and why is Alvin here defending it? Surely, with compounding, Daniel has made 10's of millions of dollars by now




well he must have made a few bob, since by my admittedly back of fag packet calcs, to collect 10k in extrinsic value on a way out of the money put , sorry , call, with a month to run that would need to be 'covered' by about $5,000,000 worth of stocks..


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

A mate of mine in forex.com just emailed me to say this thread is hitting number 3, on google searches for forex in NYC.

It would be good if Alvin could clarify, otherwise it may damage the "David Kertcher" brand.

Then again Alvin may be a David Kertcher hater, disguising his posts as laudatory, of whom there are not a few about.

gg


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Regarding the breakeven stop:

As discussed a breakeven stop in terms of open equity is absurd.

I believe the stop is set at the strike price of the sold call. It MIGHT get you out at breakeven if the level is reached very near expiry. In most cases the extrinsic value will be waaaay higher than the extrinsic when the ITM call was sold.

In this strategy, it is the extrinsic value at inception which is the source of profit. In a way away from the money option, this value is way small compared to the face value of the position.

As we know, extrinsic value is highest when ATM, so if you are stopped out at the strike price, you are buying back at the highest possible price for that day (IV changes notwithstanding). In most cases this WILL be at a significant multiple of the maximum profit, UNLESS nearly at expiry

This why anyone who knows anything about options at all is laughing like a drain at all this bullshyte about break even stops.

*There can be one explanation for Alvin's presence here and the well crafted bullcrap designd to pull in nooooobs to Kertcher's site. i.e. I suspect Alvin IS Daniel Kertcher or his employee*

By the way, where are these "audited" results?


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> ftw129, you really want me to post my results on a monthly basis? If I did, nobody here would believe it anyway, but I may post next week what I made in February.
> 
> You want to know whether Daniel's strategy works well over the long run? Daniel has been teaching this strategy since 2001, he lets his students know the trades he is putting on BEFORE he puts them on and he publishes his  AUDITED results on his website. If you really want to know how Daniel's strategy works over the long run, I suggest you go to his website and look up his AUDITED results.
> 
> I know, I know, this post will again stir some of you up and you will call me all sorts of names and you can call me anything, but don't call me late for dinner. It really doesn't matter to me, I am happy to remain blissfully ignorant.
> 
> Some of my friends make $60K to $80K a year but they have to work really hard for it. I don't work hard at all but I make a lot more than that. I think that's only fair.
> 
> Alvin Purple




Hi Alvin,

I spent a few minutes on Daniels website reading the testimonials and what I was hoping to find was many people like you that have been making consistent returns for a long time now.

The only testimonials I could see were those relating directly to the courses.

It looks as though Daniel has quite possibly sold hundreds of thousands of these courses over the last 12 years so there must be a lot of long term success stories out there.

I'm not really interested in anyone's "I've been making $10,000 a month" etc unless they've actually been doing it for years, using Daniels trades/strategy. There really must be thousands and thousands of very happy and wealthy people out there by now.

Do you know if testimonials like these exist on Daniels website?

Thanks.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> By the way, where are these "audited" results?




I had a look and could not find them anywhere.


----------



## namrog

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Today, a friend of old got in touch and during our chat told me that he had been to the Gold coast at the weekend to attend a seminar/ trading course by Danial Kertcher, he hasn't traded before so was trying to shortcut his education by paying $4000 for this 3 day I think he said course, and seemed happy enough with what he got.
There may be more to the course than the 3 day thing, I don't really know..

He said there were 200 people at the course, so doing the maths, $800,000 was turnover, so I'm thinking allowing for lots of expenses, overheads etc that it wouldn't surprise if Danial walked away with $100,000 per day, I'm just guessing on that figure of course !! Every one should aspire to a job like that, and the best thing about it, is there is absolutely no risk what so ever..!  to Daniel I mean..!


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

While not Daniels strategy,
Heres someone that manages 2 x funds and makes atleast 30% return for investors purely by selling naked calls/puts.
Im not sure how she manages to get enough premium at the strikes she's talking about though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=BquDGE9KxZQ

Im not high jacking the thread, watching this vid reminded me of the arguments made on here.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



zac said:


> While not Daniels strategy,
> Heres someone that manages 2 x funds and makes atleast 30% return for investors purely by selling naked calls/puts.
> Im not sure how she manages to get enough premium at the strikes she's talking about though.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=BquDGE9KxZQ
> 
> Im not high jacking the thread, watching this vid reminded me of the arguments made on here.




I was thinking there'd be some good discussion around this as it is comparable to Daniels strategy yet I guess the Naysayers are lost on how to aggressively attack something thats working so well.

For the record, im remaining neutral in this thread, as for Alvins claims, im doubtful of him too as I sent him a Personal Message to discuss some things and he hasnt responded to me which leads me to beleive their is an agenda in posting here.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



zac said:


> I was thinking there'd be some good discussion around this as it is comparable to Daniels strategy yet I guess the Naysayers are lost on how to aggressively attack something thats working so well.
> 
> For the record, im remaining neutral in this thread, as for Alvins claims, im doubtful of him too as I sent him a Personal Message to discuss some things and he hasnt responded to me which leads me to beleive their is an agenda in posting here.




Zac, using the term "naysayers" won't particularly endear you to optionphyles here.

However, the lady's philosophy is fundamentally different to the Kertcher strategy and marketing around it.

You might notice that I have been at pains to state that there is nothing wrong with the Kertcher strategy, or any strategy. I sell naked options myself.. as well as covered calls of varying moneyness.

The difference is that I know how to quantify my risks and reward via the Greeks and may use any strategy according to how I see the market.

The beef with likes of the Kertcher dream-weaving is the presentation of a single version of a single strategy as an investing panacea. Alvin's representations of no losing months a laugh for any retail trader whose been around the market a while.

Can synthetic OTM short puts be profitable long term? The answer is yes, but there must be a trading edge and appropriate risk/money management. To be honest, I don't know whether Kertchers method has a positive expectancy edge or not but let's assume there is.  

If so, why not gear up, mortgage the house, sell your first born etc and make several million in a short space of time?

Because losses are involved and there will be a commensurate risk of ruin, even in (and especially) a high win probability, positive expectancy system.

There ARE actually no naysayers in this thread, only realists.


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Interesting vid. 

To add to what wayne said, to my mind , and I have done a lot of research and backtesting on it, there is generally a positive edge to selling options, especially OTM puts on the SPX. That said , it depends on the premium you get, and at some level of implied volatility that edge disappears or goes negative. Like everything else, you gotta take it in context

I havent crunched the numbers on daniels strategy exactly but it is likley that the extra costs in going about it the convoluted way he advocates turns a positive edge  into a breakeven or even negative edge, or at least certainly less positive than just selling the put.

But even if still positive, the other things wrong with what his claims are;

the profits are wildly over exagerated , 8% monthly or whatever it is - pleease, not poss without a high risk of ruin

the crock of **** that using a GSL on the stock leg somehow guarantees no loss on the whole position. as wayne has pointed out if the GSL is taken out you are definitely going to be down on the whole position by some multiple of the premium you collected. And if you only have daniel's course as your whole education in options trading you arent going to know what to do about it either.

The lady in the vid, although ostensibly she does the same as daniel ie sells OTM puts to open her positions, she dynamically adjusts as her delta increases rather than relying on a stop loss. not the same at all


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yeah the vid is def interesting and given me some ideas.

I must admit, I have sold Calls/Puts also (naked & covered). I was making consistent returns of 10% plus a month. With volatility so low now I wouldnt get near that.
I havent stopped because the strategy failed me, infact it worked quite well but I stupidly took my capital I used for selling options to place a trade in other markets and burnt my capital.

When it comes to the Greeks, you guys say its imperative to know them inside out, I know of them yet am very much aware of Volatility, Black-Scholes formula yet am just mindful of volatility, ie premium, time value etc. I undertstand decay. Im not asking as to make an argument but want to ask in what way do you guys mean the Greeks need to be known so intimately, I just am wondering if theres something im missing????

ie ive followed other commentators and they do away with the greeks and just talk about cost of volatility etc.


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



zac said:


> Yeah the vid is def interesting and given me some ideas.
> 
> I must admit, I have sold Calls/Puts also (naked & covered). I was making consistent returns of 10% plus a month. With volatility so low now I wouldnt get near that.
> I havent stopped because the strategy failed me, infact it worked quite well but I stupidly took my capital I used for selling options to place a trade in other markets and burnt my capital.
> 
> When it comes to the Greeks, you guys say its imperative to know them inside out, I know of them yet am very much aware of Volatility, Black-Scholes formula yet am just mindful of volatility, ie premium, time value etc. I undertstand decay. Im not asking as to make an argument but want to ask in what way do you guys mean the Greeks need to be known so intimately, I just am wondering if theres something im missing????
> 
> ie ive followed other commentators and they do away with the greeks and just talk about cost of volatility etc.




Assuming I am one of the guys that question is directed at, just because it followed my post, I dont think I have said the greeks need to be known intimately, and I'm not sure they do in all circumstances . The beauty of option trading is there are many ways to use them, and some are more to do with the greeks than others.

I have posted before that you could broadly divide options strategies into those that focus simply on the payoff at expiry and those that are going to be dynamically hedged/adjusted along the way or profits or losses  taken before expiry.

Thinking about it it is perhaps more of a spectrum. At one extreme would be a vertical spread that will be left to expiry under any circumstances, where essentially there are two outcomes, one good and one bad. In that case , the trader is simply making a bet on the outcome and need neither know nor care what vega delta and gamma are going to do to his position on the way to that outcome. All he needs to know about is the probability of each outcome and the odds offered by the spread

At the other end of the spectrum might be a complicated spread adjusted daily targeting small movement in IV while keeping neutral as possible on delta theta and gamma. Such a position would be 100% about the greeks so you wouldnt even be in such a position unless you did know what you were doing re the greeks intimately.

Selling a put or call with the intention of living with the outcome whatever it is is probably one step in from the vertical spread since one end doesnt have a defined outcome (as long as the position is small enough relative to your bank roll that you really can live with any outcome).

Selling premium and hedging or adjusting is another step in, so now you at least need to be conversant with delta and gamma. If there is any possibility of closing the position pre expiry, you would at least need to be aware that for example if your GSL is taken out IV will be considerably higher than it is now and you will be in the worst possible position for the vega bomb to prevent you closing it out at the tiny loss promised, and if you dont close it out you will be very short gamma. How could you determine your position size if you dont have a realistic handle on the size of the potential loss?

To summarise, to take any position where you either cant or arent intending to live with the outcome at expiry, you start needing to at least be aware of how delta gamma etc will affect the position when the **** hits the fan. If you hedge you are probably hedging based on at least one of the greeks. You could, and many people do, just take bets based on the outcome at expiry , but i suggest this would be like if you were going to take up  poker learning only the strategy for heads up play with 10 big blind stacks. 

That is probably not the answer that Wayne might give so would be interested in hearing from him.

Now in return, can you tell us what sort of strategies and position sizes (relative to account size) were making 10% per month consistently?


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The question wasnt meant for anyone specific but thanks for answering 

As for the 10%, I guess from my overall capital it would be 7.5% - 12% I was making a month and it would vary.
I was perhaps a little aggressive in my strike prices as they were at times too close to the price action.

It was a mix of Covered calls & Naked Puts/Calls.
I do admit it was when the VIX was above 25.

Having said that I was comfortable after/during a correction/retracement to place a naked put under a long term support or if price was bullish to place a call above resistance.
There were times when I had to consider turning a naked position into a covered one.

Actually im just reminded, my best trade hasnt even been the selling of options which I loved the returns on, but it was a Positive Carry on Forex that yielded 240% pa or 20% per month as interest payments. So this was definitely a set and forget thing.
My stupidity got in the way though and I closed the position. Also its not for the feint hearted.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hello guys and girls,

specifically skyQuake, wayneL, prawn_86, sails, CanOz, Garpal Gumnut, village idiot, explod, sinner, ftw129, namrog and zac (I hope I didn't miss anyone).

Well, as you can see I am back from the Gold Coast, totally refreshed and ready for another month's trading. But first things first, I did promise to let you know how my February trades turned out and I am happy to report that all of them were profitable and I collected my usual profit, plus an extraordinary windfall profit.

Apart from teaching how to trade covered calls (and the occasional naked put) Daniel also shows his students how to look for profitable trades themselves. Since I was particularly interested in AAPL, especially after the irrational market behaviour subsequent to  their earnings announcement on January 23, I was scanning the option tables for possible trades. I came across one listing which can only be described as the trade of the year. AAPL at the time was trading between $440 and $460 and there was no indication that it would break out from that channel anytime soon. The calls and puts around those prices appeared to be reasonable priced and the calls above $500 could have been traded for 5 or 10 cents. The $595 February call was trading at 3 cents but when I looked at the $600 February call I couldn't believe my eyes. It was able to be sold for $1.885. Yes, you read that right: One dollar and eightyeight and a half cents. You all know that was a ridiculous price for a $600 strike so far out of the money. I actually checked with my broker and he confirmed that was the current price. So I did what any trader would have done and sold 30 contracts. Next day the price hadn't changed, so I sold another 30 contracts which must have been the last ones available because after that the "market closed" sign went up.

As you can imagine, on February 16 all these naked calls expired worthless and I was able to book a nice profit. This was in addition to the usual profit I make every month, so it was classified as an extraordinary profit since an opportunity like this doesn't come around very often.

Now to your post and I'll try to answer each of you in turn.

skyQuake: To calculate the GSL correctly you need to factor in all the expenses (brokerage, interest, GSL fee and the cost of buying back the call) and then set the GSL at a level that gives you a "break even" situation. If that cannot be done, don't do the trade.

wayneL: No, these trades cannot miraculously circumvent delta. But the GSL, applied correctly, works every time.

Really? No example in all of history? I suggest you watch the video posted here by zac where Karen the Supertrader is being interviewed for 51 minutes and she has made $105 million profit which in her case is in excess of 30 % p.a.

Ask any astronaut and they will confirm that they can easily prove that gravity does not exist in outer space.

Prove you wrong, wayneL? That is not my intention at all, I just know you are. And when I look at my bank balance, I know I am right.

Now you are saying it is a valid strategy fully capable of making a profit long term. I agree.

Possible but improbable, but possible nevertheless. That is good enough for me. 

No wayneL, I am not Daniel Kertcher and I am not his employee. If you knew anything about Australian history, you'd be fully aware that I have always been Alvin Purple and never been anyone else but Alvin Purple. I am the real thing.

By the way, Daniel's audited results are on his website. Just log in with your username and password and you can easily find them.

DOH, of course there must be appropriate risk/money management. I thought that goes without saying.

prawn_86: I don't know about the holy grail, but I have certainly found a way of making good money consistently. 

Why would I want to post in any other thread or forum? This thread is good enough for me as it has given me hours of unadulterated pleasure.

sails: You may think it's fishy, but I just look at my bank account and I know it is real.

Maybe not enough people know about this forum. I didn't know it existed until about a month ago when a very good friend of mine pointed it out to me.

All my trades are shown in my only broker's account, all the costs, expenses and all the profits. And every month there is more money in it than in the previous month. Depending on the broker you use, a GSL can actually be less expensive than a protective put.

CanOz: Ultimatum time? Now you got me really scared. I suppose you got no choice but to shut this thread down because I don't even know what an equity curve is. Unless it is just a fancy name for something that shows that my account balance has steadily increased over time.

Garpal Gumnut: I am sure your wife was happy that you took the first option.

Nope, I am not a Daniel Kertcher hater. 

village idiot: First of all let me congratulate you on your choice of name. Of all the names on this forum yours is most definitely the most apt.

You can see the trade history on Daniel's website. Just log in with your username and password and you can find it easily.

No, village idiot, it is NOT a way-out-of-the-money put, it is a deep-in-the-money call. And with CFDs and a 5 % margin it is easy to control a large number of  shares. It really is. I do it all the time.

8 % monthly? That's a bit ambitious, isn't it? 3 to 4 % monthly is much more realistic and achievable.

In your post zac is claiming he made "consistent returns of 10 % plus a month" and nobody bats an eyelid. When I state that I am making 30 % plus p.a. (3 to 4 % per month) the whole community is up in arms. You people are too funny for  words.

explod: Reality check pleas, explod.

You simply ought to know that I would be breaking the law if I posted next month's trades. Have you really never heard of copyright law and confidentiality agreements? I just can't believe anybody could be so stupid as not to know that.

I am not here to get anybody interested. I am just here to merely join in the discussion.

By the way, I have been told by experts to shut up and they all have failed miserably, as you just have.

sinner: Whether you think Daniel Kertcher is a scam or not is not actually relevant. What matters is that you say that it's entirely possible to achieve these returns.

I am glad to hear that you think it is possible to have been selling vol since 2009 without a losing month. I agree, 2011 was a difficult year, especially August and October where my profits were lower than usual. 

ftw129: I am glad you found those testimonials. Most people are reluctant for various reasons to mention the actual money they have made. Yes, Daniel has educated thousands of people over the years. Basically, his students can be divided into three groups:

1. Those that do the course but afterwards do nothing with the knowledge they gained.

2, Those who become greedy, break all the rules, "do their own thing", go off on a tangent and blow up their accounts.

3. Those who follow the rules and are happy to accept modest but consistent returns and don't get seduced to chase the big bucks.

namrog: Yes, namrog there is a bit more than the 3 days. For a small annual fee of $490 you get an email every month which shows Daniel's trades before he puts them on. Attached to it are videos with an explanation why these trades were chosen that month. In addition there is email support available from his trained consultants throughout the year.

Of the 200 people that went to the course there will be some who will do nothing with it. There will be some who think they know better, break all the rules and blow up their accounts. And there will actually be some who will follow the rules and become quite successful traders.

zac: Good video this. Funny how this figure of 30 %  plus p.a. keeps coming up. Shows that I am not the only one. 

No zac, I have no agenda. I don't remember getting a personal message from you. Maybe it ended up in my junkmail folder. I believe this should be an open forum. I am happy to answer any question, if legally possible, that is put to me in this forum. 

You can always tell when the Naysayers are lost: It's when they start calling me names and tell me to shut up. A sure sign.

Sorry to hear you burnt your capital. Could it possibly be because you didn't follow the rules?

As to your last post: It serves as a useful reminder to leave well enough alone.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And, please, always follow the rules.

Have a very nice weekend you all,

Alvin Purple


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> my February trades turned out and I am happy to report that all of them were profitable and I collected my usual profit, plus an extraordinary windfall profit.




Care to prove this with some broker statements? Myself or any other mod would be happy to verify them and you can block out any personal details.

It would save you a lot of time typing too. All we want is proof, not huge essays. Pretty simple really, i find it amazing how so many spruikers will consistently type away trying to show they are legitimate when all you really need to do is *prove it*. 

Reminds me of they saying; If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, try and baffle them with bullsh1t.


----------



## cbc1

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Here we go again.................


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, well done on AAPL at the 600 strike thats amazing, I was looking at naked puts/calls on appl for similar reasons, its higher premiums due to its volatility and having them well OTM still pay a nice sum for a lower risk strategy.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

I really am trying to give you a fair go here and give you the benefit of the doubt but I'm not sure whether you have just purposefully danced around my question or maybe it wasn't clear enough...

My original post was;



> Hi Alvin,
> 
> I spent a few minutes on Daniels website reading the testimonials and what I was hoping to find was many people like you that have been making consistent returns for a long time now.
> 
> The only testimonials I could see were those relating directly to the courses.
> 
> It looks as though Daniel has quite possibly sold hundreds of thousands of these courses over the last 12 years so there must be a lot of long term success stories out there.
> 
> I'm not really interested in anyone's "I've been making $10,000 a month" etc unless they've actually been doing it for years, using Daniels trades/strategy. There really must be thousands and thousands of very happy and wealthy people out there by now.
> 
> Do you know if testimonials like these exist on Daniels website?
> 
> Thanks.




You replied with



> ftw129: I am glad you found those testimonials. Most people are reluctant for various reasons to mention the actual money they have made. Yes, Daniel has educated thousands of people over the years. Basically, his students can be divided into three groups:
> 
> 1. Those that do the course but afterwards do nothing with the knowledge they gained.
> 
> 2, Those who become greedy, break all the rules, "do their own thing", go off on a tangent and blow up their accounts.
> 
> 3. Those who follow the rules and are happy to accept modest but consistent returns and don't get seduced to chase the big bucks.




I did not see any testimonials of people that have been successfully using Daniels strategies over the long term. The only testimonials I could see were one's relating directly to the content of the courses. NOT RELATING TO LONG TERM RESULTS.

If Daniel has sold so many thousands of these courses for over a decade, would it be unreasonable to assume, that there would be HUNDREDS of success stories all over his website and all over the internet? Success stories that have been trading with Daniel for many years?

So, once again, my question was;

Do you know if testimonials like these exist on Daniels website?

A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Even with your previous answer of;



> Most people are reluctant for various reasons to mention the actual money they have made. Yes, Daniel has educated thousands of people over the years.




There would still be at least a handful, of the many thousands of people, willing to write Daniel a testimonial regarding their consistent success over the years.

Try again?


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> village idiot: First of all let me congratulate you on your choice of name. Of all the names on this forum yours is most definitely the most apt.
> 
> You can see the trade history on Daniel's website. Just log in with your username and password and you can find it easily.
> 
> No, village idiot, it is NOT a way-out-of-the-money put, it is a deep-in-the-money call. And with CFDs and a 5 % margin it is easy to control a large number of shares. It really is. I do it all the time.




well at least i cannot be accused of misrepresentation......

I dont know why i am so nice to you after you call me names and will not learn, but do this for your homework: draw the payoff profile of a DITM short covered call, at expiry and any time you like pre expiry. Then draw the profiles for a short put at the same strike price. Report back your findings. 

I notice you now use another piece of spruiker bullsh!t - to 'control' a large number of shares. You dont 'control' them, you are exposed to the movement in them leveraged up to the max , good or bad. They might control you one day.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Pure Hoopla, Alvin.

Retrospective trade tales have little kudos on this forum.

Proof Alvin.

gg


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear prawn_86, cbc1, zac, ftw129, village idiot and Garpal Gumnut,

As cbc1 so aptly said: Here we go again ...

prawn_86: Let's get one thing straight: I don't have to prove a thing. I don't show my broker's statement to anyone, not even to my best friends. 

If I did, I would only be accused of bragging and be told that nobody is interested in the actual amounts of money I make.

After all, this thread is about Daniel Kertcher - Serious or Scam?

My opinion is that Daniel is not a scam and that the service he provides is a valuable one and worth every cent.

zac: Your posts make the most sense to me as it is clear that you fully understand what we are talking about here. That $600 strike naked call on AAPL with AAPL trading sidewise at $440 - $460 with less than 3 weeks to go till expiry would be as close to a riskless trade as it is possible to be trading naked calls.

ftw129: I have not provided Daniel with a testimonial either simply because I think that testimonials are overrated. Testimonials did not convince me to take Daniel's course. It was after I had attended one of his two hour information meetings that I decided to learn about trading from him. 

YES, these testimonials exist on Daniel's website, but you may have to read between the lines. 

village idiot: I did not call you names. Whatever made you say that?

Payoff Profile? What the heck is that? I just look at my broker's  statement and it tells me immediately how profitable my trades have been.

NO, I certainly control those shares, they provide cover for the calls I sold and I can sell them or buy them back anytime I want to. If that is not control, then I don't know what is. 

Garpal Gumnut: "Retrospective trade tales have little kudos on this forum" I totally agree.

That is why I haven't given details about my previous trades. Even a broker's statement can be photoshopped and doctored up.

Copyright laws and confidentiality agreements prevent me from disclosing Daniel's next trades. All I can say is that the March trades are progressing nicely.

However, there is nothing to prevent me from showing you one  of the trades I picked myself without help from anyone.

This morning (Saturday, February 23) at 7.45 a.m. as I was watching the market's last 15 minutes I noticed another setup with AAPL which appeared to be quite profitable. AAPL was trading at $450 with very little movement since the market opened. The $480 strike call option with March 2 expiry was bid at 61 cents.

This appeared to me to be an attractive price and I sold 60 contracts.

So, here we have it:

I sold 60 contracts of AAPL $480 strike call options at 61 cents with an expiry of March 2.

I'll leave it to you to do the maths.

Most of you will be able to work it out. Don't worry if you can't. I'm sure somebody will post the figures.

So, next Saturday, March 2,  we all will know the outcome.

Have an enjoyable week.

Alvin Purple


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Copyright laws and confidentiality agreements prevent me from disclosing Daniel's next trades. All I can say is that the March trades are progressing nicely.




How convenient


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks for the very detailed and helpful reply Matteo.  I am sure there are a lot of people who read your post and have found it informative and constructive.  Thanks for taking the time to write it and post it.  Ignore those who have nothing to contribute other than criticism of those who are trying to inform and help the trading community.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Man this is pure theater.... comedy gold. 

When I have time I'll come back to this for a fisking, but in the meantime Daniel, what was the margin requirement for your purported AAPL position(s)... and how much cash reserve did(do) you have for margin call contingency?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ....in the meantime Daniel, what was the margin requirement for your purported AAPL position(s)... and how much cash reserve did(do) you have for margin call contingency?




OK... I can hear cricketrs chirping

Would any of Daniel's employees who are posting here like to take a stab at the margin requirement for the purported AAPL position?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> How convenient




prawn_86: Yours was the only reply. How astounding.

Convenient or not, the law is the law. And the law must not be broken.

Anyway, we will all know in 5 days how my AAPL trade went. If I come out of it with a small loss or just break even, you will all have a lot to laugh about.

But just imagine it is a successful trade and the call option expires worthless, who will have the last laugh then?

I realise, prawn_86,  that you haven't got the mathematical ability to work out my profit, but I'm sure there'll be many posters who will do it  for you.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Anyway, we will all know in 5 days how my AAPL trade went. If I come out of it with a small loss or just break even, you will all have a lot to laugh about.
> 
> But just imagine it is a successful trade and the call option expires worthless, who will have the last laugh then?
> 
> I realise, prawn_86,  that you haven't got the mathematical ability to work out my profit, but I'm sure there'll be many posters who will do it  for you.




Oh my, how you misconstrue ASFers.

Nobody will will laugh at you, win lose or draw, IF YOU ARE HONEST WITH US.

You see, we all have wins, losses and draws... all of us. What counts is mathematical expectancy of a trading method over the long haul. How many times a system wins is almost irrelevant, it is the sum of wins versus the sum of losses which counts in the end.

90% win rate counts for nothing if the 10 of losses are calamitous. A 35% win rate nothing to worry about if wins are very much greater than losses.

If you wonder why ASFers are having a go at you, it is because you are being nefarious, obtuse and mendacious in your representation of the results of what is systematic synthetic put sales. Those of us who know a bit about options and trading know you are jerking yourself off here and we don't appreciate you insulting our intelligence.

I've known prawn a fair while now and I guarantee you his mathematical ability is prodigious, it is his job to be so.

*Now for some maths from you, would you be so kind as to answer my question regarding the margin requirement of your purported AAPL position?*


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Please also do explain how you hedge with a GSL.

Did you hedge the Apple trade?

thnx


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

skyQuake: Whenever I use a GSl I find there is no need for hedging.

When I sell a way-out-of-the money call option with only a short time to expiry, I don't use any hedging.

All other trades are hedged, of  course.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

wayneL: How can I misconstrue ASFers when I don't even know what an ASFer is?

Of course I am honest with you.

Didn't I just tell you about the way-out-of-the-money AAPL call option that I sold last month and that expired worthless last week?

Didn't I just tell you about the AAPL trade I put on last Saturday and that will expire this Saturday?

Not on any of the 10 pages of this thread did I notice anybody else posting their trades. Funny that. Why am I the only one posting my trades?

What is being nefarious, obtuse or mendacious in the representation of my results when I CLEARLY stated the price, the quantity and the fact that the call options expired worthless? (No need to answer it, it was a rhetorical question)

I cannot make it any plainer than that.

Intelligence can only be insulted where it exists.

You may think that prawn_86's mathematical ability is prodigious. We all know, and he has proved it in his own post, that he CANNOT multiply 3200 by 100 without being wrong by a factor of 10, that is  1000 % wrong.

My AAPL position  is not purported, it is very real, and the margin requirement is 10 %.

Yours truly,

Alvin Purple


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> skyQuake: Whenever I use a GSl I find there is no need for hedging.
> 
> When I sell a way-out-of-the money call option with only a short time to expiry, I don't use any hedging.
> 
> All other trades are hedged, of  course.




Was referring to 



Alvin Purple said:


> Total losses? The worst outcome is "break even" when the Guaranteed Stop Loss Order is applied correctly.




cheers


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> skyQuake: Whenever I use a GSl I find there is no need for hedging.
> 
> When I sell a way-out-of-the money call option with only a short time to expiry, I don't use any hedging.
> 
> All other trades are hedged, of  course.




Can you explain how GSL equates to hedging?

A planned exit (with a probability of loss due to pre-expiry delta/gamma) is not a hedge.

Also as discussed, ITM CC = synthetic naked put.

How is this hedged?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> wayneL: How can I misconstrue ASFers when I don't even know what an ASFer is?
> 
> Of course I am honest with you.
> 
> Didn't I just tell you about the way-out-of-the-money AAPL call option that I sold last month and that expired worthless last week?
> 
> Didn't I just tell you about the AAPL trade I put on last Saturday and that will expire this Saturday?
> 
> Not on any of the 10 pages of this thread did I notice anybody else posting their trades. Funny that. Why am I the only one posting my trades?
> 
> What is being nefarious, obtuse or mendacious in the representation of my results when I CLEARLY stated the price, the quantity and the fact that the call options expired worthless? (No need to answer it, it was a rhetorical question)
> 
> I cannot make it any plainer than that.
> 
> Intelligence can only be insulted where it exists.
> 
> You may think that prawn_86's mathematical ability is prodigious. We all know, and he has proved it in his own post, that he CANNOT multiply 3200 by 100 without being wrong by a factor of 10, that is  1000 % wrong.
> 
> My AAPL position  is not purported, it is very real, and the margin requirement is 10 %.
> 
> Yours truly,
> 
> Alvin Purple




Now as we paint you into a corner, the ad hom comes out 

So your margin is an even 10%? Portfolio margin may approximate 10% on this (purported until proven) position. 

Please tell us what that "10%" is on and the actual figure. I want to see you write it.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

wayneL: Seriously, if you can't work out what 10 % is, then I suggest you consult with that mathematical genius prawn_86.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Can you explain how GSL equates to hedging?
> 
> A planned exit (with a probability of loss due to pre-expiry delta/gamma) is not a hedge.
> 
> Also as discussed, ITM CC = synthetic naked put.
> 
> How is this hedged?




Didn't I just tell you that when the GSL is applied correctly there is no need for hedging?


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Im sick of the bickering going on here and not getting anywhere so I'll explain a few things as Ive seen this strategy work quite well.

If someone chooses to use a GSL, it costs them an additional 0.3% (typically) or 3% less on your monthly return. Having said that, one can typically trade the same stock every month if the GSL isnt hit.
If the trade is stopped out (GSL hit) then you are stopped out with zero loss minus brokerage fee's.

Of course theres the issue of the option however which will now be OTM. There is a choice to make, let it expire hopefully worthless or buy it back.
So the loss is on buying back the option (if you choose to do so) and brokerage fee's.

The funny thing that people dont understand about this isnt that leverage is there to increase your returns so much but to provide Margin of Safety as youre able to set strikes far from the price action giving you time to decide on a course of action when the market tanks.

Anyway as ive said previously, im remaining neutral here but just throwing my 2c in as this thread is now going around in circles.

I follow an ex-fund manager by the way that has been getting returns lately of 60% (annualised) and this is through buying options and targeting asymmetric trades.
I dont see Alvins 30% claims as outrageous but I can see the argument here is more so the method than the actual returns. 
Theres a fund manager that has a regular spot on SKY TV and other Aussie shows that boasts a value investing approach that generates 20%+, so thats damn good for a long term investing approach that doesnt use instruments such as options, warrants, CFDs with an asymmetric pay off.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well said, zac. I agree.


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

my oh my





> Of course theres the issue of the option however which will now be OTM. There is a choice to make, let it expire hopefully worthless or buy it back.
> So the loss is on buying back the option (if you choose to do so) and brokerage fee's.




zac, we get that the GSL works on the stock leg. But you dismiss the potential loss on the option too lightly;
the loss on the option (if it was a put, but a call will have the same effect) , should you close it out, will be many times the extrinsic value you orginally sold. Dont dismiss it unless you have worked out what it is likely to be. If you dont close it out, you would be short gamma and totally unhedged  in a volatile market. That was TOTALLY UNHEDGED. This is the bit that seems to be ignored by the promoters and supporters of this strategy, such as alvin who totally refuses to get that point. But hey he is rich as croseus from his option trades so why would i try to learn him any more?


since alvin wont do the maths, i have got my fag packet out again and according to it his AAPL trade involves $2.7m worth of stock , so at 10% margin he has put up $270k to win $3660. Cool. By the way how often does AAPl close up by more than 6.7% over a week? You have a figure for that right Alvin?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Exactly No Villge Idiot. This is the exact point made sveral times on this thread.


Thos stop loss setup they have is no diffent to a contingecy order on the natural short pur (the CC being the synthetic)

ie Buy to close put at market if underlying trades at x.

The fact these clons don't see the potntial for loss and refer to it as a breakeven stop shows their naivety.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Ps forgive typos on the phone


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I don't know how often AAPL has closed 6.7 % up in a week. Past performance is no guarantee for future performance. Last month AAPL would have had to rise 33.3 % to hit the strike price. Not very likely I would have thought.

On the few occasions I got stopped out, and I decided to buy back the call, I found the price very much lower than the price I got when I sold the call. Generally speaking, when the share price is well below the strike price and a lot of the time value has decayed, the price of the call option tends to be a fair bit lower. One also has the choice to buy back the stock at a much lower price. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I happened to see the market close this morning and noticed that I have already achieved nearly two thirds of my expected profit which will materialise this Saturday morning.


----------



## carlk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

3660 on 270k is 1.35% return perweek/70%+ annualised. Pretty good return but the 7% range on weekly AAPL movement you will win only 60% of the time (from 1984 to 2012 data), most likely higher in this volatility environment. Even at 70-80% win, your losses are undefined, every dollar above the strike is about 2X your premium. Just a quick scan over past few months $10 overnight gaps are not uncommon. Your sold option can still be "in profit zone" out of the money at 475 on Thursday but on Friday it gaps $10 into 485, you will be needing dozens of weeks of premiums to cover one loss. Even at 80% win rate you have a negative expectancy. Your win this week does not make it a good trade. Trade long enough like that and you will get burnt.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks carlk, that is good advice.

Most of my trades are covered calls using a GSL and therefore require little attention during the month. If I do get stopped out, depending how close it is to expiry, I have several choices: buy back the call at a much lower price or let it expire, or even buy back the stock at a much lower price. In more than three years of trading this has never been a problem.

Lately I have been dabbling a little in naked calls. But I only use them when the price is right. Like last month's $1.885 premium for a FEB $600 strike way-out-of-the money call. There was no way AAPL was getting anywhere near $600 in those three weeks. The closest it got was about $465.

If this week the price gets anywhere near $475, I'll be closing out the trade, even if it means I just break even. If we get to Saturday morning and AAPL stays below $480, I'll collect a nice profit.

BTW, all my other trades for this month which are covered calls are progressing nicely.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,
With the VIX being so low, are you trading with less capital exposed than normal?

Also as part of your risk management, I see you have multiple trades but do you also do covered puts? I noticed earlier in one of your posts you had a call and put on the same company, so atleast that guarantee's a winning trade but you dont want the losing position to make any wins insignificant.

When I was doing naked positions, I was prepared to turn them into a covered position if need be. 
Im not sure id do well with the VIX being so low now but with a higher VIX I was finding lots of ways to sell options with relative safety.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Thanks carlk, that is good advice.
> 
> Most of my trades are covered calls using a GSL and therefore require little attention during the month. If I do get stopped out, depending how close it is to expiry, I have several choices: buy back the call at a much lower price or let it expire, or even buy back the stock at a much lower price. In more than three years of trading this has never been a problem.
> 
> Lately I have been dabbling a little in naked calls. But I only use them when the price is right. Like last month's $1.885 premium for a FEB $600 strike way-out-of-the money call. There was no way AAPL was getting anywhere near $600 in those three weeks. The closest it got was about $465.
> 
> If this week the price gets anywhere near $475, I'll be closing out the trade, even if it means I just break even. If we get to Saturday morning and AAPL stays below $480, I'll collect a nice profit.
> 
> BTW, all my other trades for this month which are covered calls are progressing nicely.




Care to give an example of using the GSL?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

zac: No, I use roughly the same percentage of my capital every month, irrespective of the value of the VIX. I may use less capital per trade but I may have more trades.

I don't use covered puts at the moment, but I may do so in the future.

When I had both a naked call and a naked put on the same company, I did that after deciding that the maximum swing in the time remaining to expiry would be + or - 14 %. Therefore I chose a call strike 14 % above and a put strike 14 % below the market price as the premiums were still quite attractive. By expiry the price had actually dropped 13 %, so both trades were profitable.

skyQuake: Here is an example of the use of the GSL:

The stock has been rising slowly for several weeks and is now at $40.00. The long term support is at $38.00 and the premium for the $38 strike call option is $4.00. You buy the stock at $40.00 using CFDs and sell the $38 strike in-the-money call option for $4.00. Allow $1.30 for expenses (brokerage, interest, GSL fee). Set the GSL at $37.75.

Now you are in a fairly safe position. If the price stays above $38.00 till expiry, you will get exercised but make an overall profit. If the price drops to $38.00 you will not get exercised, you keep the premium minus expenses and you keep your shares on which you can sell more call options the following month and you can use the GSL again without additional cost. If the price drops to $37.75 or below, your broker will sell your shares at $37.75, you keep the premium minus expenses, but your call is now a naked call and you have to decide whether you want to buy it back (at a much lower price than you got for it) or let the option expire worthless. This decision depends on how far below $37.75 the price has dropped and how much time is left to expiry. If the price has dropped a lot, you may even consider buying back the shares at a much lower price.

On the occasions I have been stopped out I have always broken even or ended up with a small profit.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

My reply is directed to Samuel, Garpal Gumnut, Vixs and, of course, wayneL.

Samuel: I have no knowledge of Daniel's involvement in any of the funds you mentioned and can therefore not comment on it.

You are probably a bit presumptuous to think that Daniel actually comes to this forum and reads it. I suggest if you want him to discuss these issues you write to him directly.

Garpal Gumnut: I am not a lawyer either, nor am I Daniel Kertcher or his employee. 

I met Daniel in 2009, did his course, used the knowledge I gained to trade covered calls and found that a regular monthly income can be made, provided one follows the rules, especially those on capital protection and preservation.

Daniel doesn't want his students to just blindly follow his recommendations, although the trades mentioned in his monthly report often turn out to be very profitable. He encourages his students to go and find their own trades. That is how I found that incredible AAPL trade in January, a way-out-of-the-money $600 strike February Call Option with a $1.885 premium. If I had not done his course, I would never have  found it.

I am not here to defend Daniel. If he has done the wrong thing, he should certainly be prosecuted. 

However, many posters here seem to imply that ASIC are not doing their job. I can speak from personal experiences and can state that ASIC take their job very seriously.

In the 1990s I was enticed to invest $1,000 with a company (Lateral Trading) that promised annual returns in excess of 20 % by trading in options. Briefly, something went wrong. ASIC stepped in and closed the business down and prosecuted the directors who were found guilty in court and received lengthy jail sentences. Two years later, when the liquidators had finished their work, I received $400 back.

In the late 1990s I was offered to invest in a scheme involving Wagyu beef cattle. The promised returns appeared to be too good to be true. So I enquired about the scheme at ASIC who immediately investigated, found the scheme to be a scam and promptly prosecuted the promoter who was sentenced and sent to prison.

My point is: If so many people lost so much money in schemes with which Daniel was associated, did nobody ever complain to ASIC about it? It is very easy to lodge a complaint with ASIC as Gumnut's link shows.

When so many people and so much money is involved, wouldn't you think that ASIC would know about it and take some action?

To my knowledge Daniel's license has never been withdrawn and as far as I can ascertain he operates within the law and has never been prosecuted.

Vixs: Your point is valid. Unfortunately, there are millions of people in Australia who have no say in how their superannuation moneys are invested. Over the last five years many superannuation funds had very low returns, some of them even negative. And the people whose money they invest, and sometimes lose, have no say.

I am fortunate that I have my own SMSF and totally control my investments.

wayneL: Of course, truth comes out in the end. 

But it will not come out in this forum. The only way we can find out the truth is when a responsible authority, such as ASIC, conducts a full investigation.

Have a nice long weekend, you all.

Let's celebrate Moomba, get together and have FUN!

Alvin Purple


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Just FYI Daniel... errr, Alvin.... whoever:

DK is a member of this forum, possibly under one or more _nom de plumes_, but certainly under his own name, and has responded to a few points.

The thing is, Samuels post has the ring of truth about it, as it mirrors the experiences of other leveraged CC funds/strategies.... plucking pennies in front of a steamroller before eventually getting squashed.

The owner of this forum is an impartial honest "broker" (in the metaphorical sense). He will never betray any confidence... ever, not even to us mods. SO if you want to prove your purported record of never ever a losing trade, I suggest that you can do so by scanning your broker statements and sending to Joe.

I stress that he is scrupulous in such matters. 

If it is true, you have an opportunity to shut us all up.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Re the fund Samuel is talking about. Im not sure if its this forum site or another, DK has actually made comment on it.
Im sure it can be found given a search.
From memory the fund was handed over to other principle managers.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Why am I not surprised?

wayneL, I have searched the ASIC website for any signs that Daniel Kertcher was ever prosecuted or banned. There is no sign of it.

As you know, ASIC has a comprehensive list of scams, prosecutions and banned persons and companies. Daniel is not on this list.

This may not be good enough for you, but it is good enough for me.

You are still barking on about proof? Didn't I just show you my last two trades from the time they were put on until their successful conclusion?

The dogs keep barking but the caravan moves on .....

I was also accused of not posting my results on a monthly basis. Well, next weekend is expiry weekend and I am happy to let you all know how this month went. With only 5 days to go till expiry I can tell you now that all trades are currently in profit and, barring an absolute disaster, should remain profitable until expiry.

I am fortunate that I did not find this forum until January this year. Had I come across it say, three years ago, all that negativity may have persuaded me not to go ahead with trading and I would have missed out on three years of good profits. By the time I became aware of this forum it would have taken a lot more than the rantings of the Naysayers to stop me from trading.

Now I must get back to my Moomba celebrations.

Have a nice couple of days.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The stock has been rising slowly for several weeks and is now at $40.00. The long term support is at $38.00 and the premium for the $38 strike call option is $4.00. You buy the stock at $40.00 using CFDs and sell the $38 strike in-the-money call option for $4.00. Allow $1.30 for expenses (brokerage, interest, GSL fee). Set the GSL at $37.75.
> 
> Now you are in a fairly safe position. If the price stays above $38.00 till expiry, you will get exercised but make an overall profit. If the price drops to $38.00 you will not get exercised, you keep the premium minus expenses and you keep your shares on which you can sell more call options the following month and you can use the GSL again without additional cost. If the price drops to $37.75 or below, your broker will sell your shares at $37.75, you keep the premium minus expenses, but your call is now a naked call and you have to decide whether you want to buy it back (at a much lower price than you got for it) or let the option expire worthless. This decision depends on how far below $37.75 the price has dropped and how much time is left to expiry. If the price has dropped a lot, you may even consider buying back the shares at a much lower price.
> 
> On the occasions I have been stopped out I have always broken even or ended up with a small profit.




Hi Alvin, thnx for the GSL example but I have a few more questions.

Firstly is this US or AUS? I'd assume US from the Apple example earlier. 

I get the payoffs for the stock, but I don't really see the point of a GSL. It seems to me all it'll do is erode profit. Yes I know the stock can gap down, but it seems a regular stop would do the same job without eating at gains.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Hi Alvin, thnx for the GSL example but I have a few more questions.
> 
> Firstly is this US or AUS? I'd assume US from the Apple example earlier.
> 
> I get the payoffs for the stock, but I don't really see the point of a GSL. It seems to me all it'll do is erode profit. Yes I know the stock can gap down, but it seems a regular stop would do the same job without eating at gains.




Hi Quake,
A GSL costs 0.3% (or 3% of your overall return on that trade) and yeah youre right its really just protection from gapping. If your break even point is well clear from the price action you wouldnt think gapping is too much of an issue.
The other thing is but im reluctant to mention it because of arguments the option purists might engage lol.
say for example you buy AAPL with a GSL, you can trade it monthly by rewriting fresh options and therefore the GSL fee becomes redundant as its a once off fee.

They are traded in US, due to liquidity I beleive and the amount of options, also if holding a leveraged position its charged at US interest rates (0.25%) and not (3.0%) as per Australia.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin.  
I  did not ask for proof of two trades. You claim to have never made a loss in 3  or whatever years. That is what I'm asking proof of.... otm synthetic puts WILL be profitable some percentage greater than 50% of the time. Its the occasional losses that determine profitability over the long term.

These is the point you keep ducking and bobbing over. You just dont have the cajones to stump up and back up your claims.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Zac the one year trader speaks perjoratively of "option purists". LOL that is funny!


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Zac the one year trader speaks perjoratively of "option purists". LOL that is funny!




Haha lol, I see your point but I wasnt disapproving of them at all.
Just meaning to say, theres a counter argument to it that I didnt want to raz up.

I guess your one year assumption is based on my start date here.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

skyQuake: Actually zac has already answered those questions and I can only agree with his answers.

Yes, the GSL is an initial cost and some people may consider it unnecessary. However, when the stock doesn't gap down and you don't get exercised and therefore keep your shares, you can write fresh call options on those shares the following month and since the GSL has not been triggered you can use it again at no additional costs. This scenario can continue for several months which spreads the original cost of the GSL over a much wider base.

I may have mentioned before that it is important to follow the rules. That is why I continue to use a GSL. On at least two occasions that I can remember, namely in August and October 2011 the markets crashed and several stocks gapped down big time over the weekend. My GSLs came in very handy since they prevented me from suffering disastrous losses.

I know some traders who did not believe in a GSL, they thought they were unnecessary and too expensive. However, when their stocks gapped down by a wide margin they received the scourge of traders: The much dreaded MARGIN CALL from their broker. Since they did not have sufficient funds to meet those MARGIN CALLS, their brokers did what brokers do: They closed out their positions when their stocks were way down, causing them tremendous losses (remember they were leveraged 10:1 or even 20:1), which in some cases blew up their accounts.

I regard the cost of the GSL as simply a cost of doing business, but more importantly, it lets me sleep well at night. For it is at our nighttime when all the action happens on the US market. I prefer to wake up refreshed in the morning and casually observe the closing minutes of the market without being overly concerned what happened in the previous 6 hours.

wayneL: You appear to be a bit thicker than the average bear. You keep harping on about "synthetic puts" when I made it quite clear that I am talking about COVERED CALL OPTIONS. Get that into your little pointed head: COVERED CALL OPTIONS.

By the way, I never claimed never to have had a losing trade. I stated quite clearly that I have never had a losing month.

And one more thing: This thread is not about me, it is about "Daniel Kertcher - Serious or Scam?"

There appears to have taken place a major thread drift. Let me remind you again: This thread is about Daniel Kertcher. I have yet to see any convincing evidence, on the ASIC website or anywhere else, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Daniel Kertcher is a SCAM. 

In the absence of such evidence - and you guys had more than three years to find and post it - I must conclude that Daniel Kertcher is not a SCAM.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks Alvin once again for highlighting your woefully inadequate knowledge of options BASICS.

As discussed on this forum dozens of times and even pointed put to you on at least three previous occasions, a covered call IS a synthetic short put.

Thats just a basic option fact.

So with regards to your obnoxious ad hom, you have been hoist by your own petard. Congratulations, you've shot yourself in the foot.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Re the GSLs, I suppose thats fair enough. I understand you can keep "rolling" the stop around if it doesnt get hit so you dont need to pay the prem every month.

It does remove some risk from the covered calls, but some of your trades aren't hedged with GSLs, eg. your Apple trade in the US. Is this still part of the recommended trades?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yes, you are right, wayneL, indeed I have shot myself in the foot and it really hurts. It hurts so much that I am crying  ....... crying all the way to the bank.

skyQuake, that particular AAPL trade was not a recommended trade from Daniel. But his teachings taught me to look out for such trades.

So even I, with my very inadequate knowledge of options, and being totally ignorant as to any option theories, being unconsciously incompetent and obviously a total idiot, could see that a premium of $1.885 for a way-out-of-the-money  $600 strike call option with three weeks to run to expiry when the price action was around $460 and going down, was a bargain that did not need any hedging whatsoever. When the options expired worthless on February 16 I was able to calculate on my trusted abacus that the 60 contracts yielded me a net profit after brokerage of $11010. This was an extraordinary profit and roughly doubled my profit for the month.

Just imagine how much money I could have made if I really understood options like, for instance  wayneL does. His theoretical knowledge of options theory must be encyclopaedical. I can only guess how much money he must be making every month.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Oh yeah! Anyone cam claim anything on the internet, amonymously. 

For credibility I have explained the avenues for you to prove it. But alas, yoi keep dodging that.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne.

Do I have to keep reminding you that this thread is not about me, it is about Daniel Kertcher. 

For three years now you guys have been claiming that Daniel is a scam, but you have failed to provide any credible evidence. You are the ones having a credibility problem, not me.

Unless you can show us where ASIC has stepped in, taken action against Daniel and have outed him as a scam, all you are doing is pissing in the wind.

I have told you before and I am telling you again, I don't show my broker's  statement to anyone, not even my closest friends. My friends can see that I am a successful trader, they don't need any proof. A wise old man once told me: "Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."

I have already shown you two trades, I've told you about them as I was putting them on and I told you about their successful conclusion.

Since I am talking to experienced traders I'll even let you know about a trade that's possibly coming up this week. The company is INTEL and if the right signals appear, I'll be in like Flynn.

Remember, you heard it here first.

You see, I don't have to prove my past performance, that is already on the record.

What I have to prove is that I can pick trades BEFORE they happen.

Now I must get back to my Moomba celebrations.

Have a nice day,

Alvin Purple


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I think that village idiots back of the napkin calculations have already proved that Alvin is basically leveraged beta chasing with horrible long term R:R. The returns which Samuel is quoting to investor funds is pretty much what I would expect from the kind of trades which village idiot deconstructed. So what is the point of this discussion? Is anyone here who has ever traded options finding this discussion anything but disgusting? Every post Alvin puts up makes me a little queasier.

Facts: 







> since alvin wont do the maths, i have got my fag packet out again and according to it his AAPL trade involves $2.7m worth of stock , so at 10% margin he has put up $270k to win $3660. Cool. By the way how often does AAPl close up by more than 6.7% over a week? You have a figure for that right Alvin?




Realistically we should no longer entertain discussions like this on the forum, as this has become a pointless loop like all the other threads on "wealth schemes" which we see here so often. In our politeness we have more than once given these people a platform they don't deserve on a forum like ASF.

The policy should be that any claims made about returns for a commercially offered product require immediate verification by a moderator, or the user is banned as a spruiker and the product immediately added to an ASF "Scam Alert" thread. At which point if the operators of the product feel they are being defamed, simply require to provide verified performance statements and a retraction from the list issued.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Realistically we should no longer entertain discussions like this on the forum, as this has become a pointless loop like all the other threads on "wealth schemes" which we see here so often. In our politeness we have more than once given these people a platform they don't deserve on a forum like ASF.
> 
> *The policy should be that any claims made about returns for a commercially offered product require immediate verification by a moderator, or the user is banned as a spruiker *and the product immediately added to an ASF "Scam Alert" thread. At which point if the operators of the product feel they are being defamed, simply require to provide verified performance statements and a retraction from the list issued.




+++ 100000


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks Samuel for that link. Inside was a dead hyperlink to consumer.org.nz, so I did some digging.

From the 2003 Annual Report of "Consumers Institute of New Zealand"



page 5
See for yourself: http://www.consumer.org.nz/content/uploads/Image/PDFs/annualreport2003.pdf


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Anyone got an archive copy of this article?

http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153


> Last month, the New Zealand Consumers' Institute wrote an article about one of Phil's pals – a guy called Daniel Kertcher. Phil had been urging consumers to attend Daniel's seminars on how to get rich trading options. Kertcher's magical share techniques were even more impressive than Phil Jones's magical property techniques. "The challenge is to turn two grand into a million," said Kertcher.
> 
> Phew, no wonder Phil Jones, with his passion to help consumers, was encouraging people to pay thousands to Kertcher.
> 
> But the Consumers' Institute were, to put it mildly, rather critical of Kertcher, not just for his share trading activities, but for his past property activities. In a 2001 headline which screamed Watch out for these people, the Consumers' Institute featured a photo of Kertcher together with a story about how he ripped-off an elderly man on one of his many dodgy Gold Coast apartment deals. In this example, the 69 year-old lost $86,000.




also referenced here

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=228205


> The Consumers Institute does an excellent job informing the public about dubious investment schemes.
> Queensland-based Daniel Kertcher, who is trying to target New Zealand sharemarket investors, has been mentioned several times.
> Consumer, the institute's magazine, says Mr Kertcher promoted overvalued Queensland properties to New Zealanders and many of these investors have lost large sums of money on their purchases.
> Mr Kertcher is a former director of Metashare International, the company that promotes the Metashare share-trading system. The Consumers Institute is sceptical about the performance of this expensive system.
> 
> Mr Kertcher is now fronting get rich quick sharemarket seminars in Auckland that are independent of Metashare.
> 
> One this evening is on how to make money on the sharemarket and a subsequent three-day session is on share and options trading. This evening's seminar costs $89.95 and the three-day session is priced at $3490 a person.
> 
> Mr Kertcher is promoting a high-risk options strategy based on the Australian Stock Exchange. This is an extremely difficult strategy to master, even for investors with long experience of equity markets.




or this one from 2004

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=3551109

.

I think it is extremely apparent that Daniel Kertcher is a very successful, long time con artist. I am almost tempted to post a link to this thread on 4chan just to see what Anonymous would do about it. Mr Kertcher, I suggest you take your sock puppets and leave this forum for good, lest my temptation grow further.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So, is that the best you can do? 

Consumers Institute of New Zealand.

What a toothless tiger!

They, who are making an annual loss at the expense of the NZ taxpayer, mention Daniel Kertcher once: Under "Scams" - Daniel Kertcher trading options.

And that's it?

No follow up, no details? No prosecution - nothing, nada, zilch, nix. Ten years of nothing.

What a bunch of bureaucratic nohopers, being a drain on the taxpayer.

Then:  The NZ Herald.

Don't get me started on journalists. There must me a reason why journalists are way down on the list of trusted persons, down there somewhere near last place with used car salesmen and drug dealers.

As we have seen recently some journalists will stoop to anything to sell newspapers. Nuff said.

So, that leaves ASIC as the only credible authority. As we have seen, and has been pointed out by several people here, ASIC take their job very serious, start investigating when a complaint is made and take proper action in the courts  when prosecutions are warranted. They have a very good record of achieving results, exposing scams, issuing warnings and putting the guilty away.

So, what actions have ASIC taking against Daniel Kertcher?

I am sure there would have been some complaints lodged with ASIC. And ASIC would certainly have investigated. But it seems that no action was ever taken against Daniel Kertcher. Could it be that it was found that the complaints did not warrant prosecution? I can only guess.

This thread has been running for more than two years and a few people have already mentioned that it may be time to close it  down. They may have a point, but I'll leave it to the moderators.

Bye the way, the March Options expired this morning, and while not everyone of Daniel's trades was profitable, the large majority of them were and the total return of all trades for March was at the rate of about  30 % p.a.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

How is ASIC any different to a Consumer Institute? 

ASIC are well known for being under resourced and stretched to the limit, so it is entirely possible that they cannot cover everything int he financial realm. When have ASIC every had a successful prosecution either? They are hamstrung by inefficient laws and under staffing


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am sure there would have been some complaints lodged with ASIC. And ASIC would certainly have investigated. But it seems that no action was ever taken against Daniel Kertcher. Could it be that it was found that the complaints did not warrant prosecution? I can only guess.
> 
> This thread has been running for more than two years and a few people have already mentioned that it may be time to close it  down. They may have a point, but I'll leave it to the moderators.
> 
> Bye the way, the March Options expired this morning, and while not everyone of Daniel's trades was profitable, the large majority of them were and the total return of all trades for March was at the rate of about  30 % p.a.




This thread unless you take legal action will be unlikely to "close down ", although I do not speak for Joe Blow. Threads stay up even if comment ceases as is the case in threads on all stock sites.

And I would bet London to a brick Alvin that you would not take legal action to close this down, as the publicity would harm your bizarre 30% pa claimed profit story and the future uptake of similar schemes.

Post a projection, project it, evaluate it, publish it.

Retrospectivity has a Storm Financial smell to it.





prawn_86 said:


> How is ASIC any different to a Consumer Institute?
> 
> ASIC are well known for being under resourced and stretched to the limit, so it is entirely possible that they cannot cover everything int he financial realm. When have ASIC every had a successful prosecution either? They are hamstrung by inefficient laws and under staffing




One of the problems with ASIC is that they are under resourced, as are all regulatory and compliance bodies.

On the other side , the wiles of scammeisters and frauds are infinite.

gg


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

prawn_86: Of course ASIC are under resourced and that makes their achievements all the more remarkable. I have personal experience of two cases (Lateral Trading and the Wagyu Beef Cattle Scam) where ASIC successfully prosecuted the promoters who received lengthy prison terms.

Over the years there have been hundreds of cases were ASIC have acted swiftly and obtained the desired result. Alan Bond is probably the best known case, but there have been others where the perpetrators are now dead, so I won't mention their names, but we all know who I am talking about.

My point is very clear: If Daniel Kertcher were a scam and had been ripping people off, he would have been prosecuted a long time ago and not only by ASIC. In Australia any private person who feels they have been wronged can take legal action against the offending party. There are dozens of law firms out there who are only too willing to take up a case and many will work on a "now win - no fee" basis. So, if so many people have been wronged, where are their cases?

The answer is: Daniel Kertcher has no case to answer.

Garpal Gumnut: WTF are you thinking? I have no interest in closing down this thread - it's providing me with hours of free entertainment.

Me taking legal action to close this thread down? You gotta be kidding. 

Nothing can harm my monthly profits, they keep rolling in month after month whether you know about it or  not.

I have already shown you two trades that I put on recently - from the day  I put them on until their successful conclusion. There is nothing retrospective about it.

30 % p.a. is very achievable. Just because you can't get those returns doesn't mean others can't. Many of us do.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Ah, there are those unsubstantiated claims again.

I say pigs might fly, but hey I dont show my photos to anyone.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

wayne_L, we all know that you are a tool, but you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

What is unsubstantiated about those trades that I was telling you as I was putting them on and carried them through to their successful conclusion?

Nothing unsubstantiated about that, nothing at all.

Bye the way, your bias is  showing.

And, I don't have to prove a thing, not a darned thing.

And I am not trying to convince you of anything, because obviously you are too thick to understand.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> wayne_L, we all know that you are a tool, but you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?
> 
> What is unsubstantiated about those trades that I was telling you as I was putting them on and carried them through to their successful conclusion?
> 
> Nothing unsubstantiated about that, nothing at all.
> 
> Bye the way, your bias is  showing.
> 
> And, I don't have to prove a thing, not a darned thing.
> 
> And I am not trying to convince you of anything, because obviously you are too thick to understand.




So Alvin, again you resort to ad hom, in contravention of ASF code of conduct (the last resort of the loser), to duck a valid request for substantiation of claims.

You purported to show *one* trade in real time. It worked, good for you. These trades work most of the time. It is when they don't work that tell on the system. Just like trend trading systems rely on outliers to be profitable, synthetic short put system's Achilles heel are the outliers.

You have substantiated nothing at all.

The oft quoted maxim of 'picking up pennies in front of  steamroller is valid... GSL or not.

You claim:
To never have had a losing trade
To make 30% PA or thereabouts
To have placed a trade that required nearly $300k of margin

None of these are substantiated.

Believe me, the least thing you have substantiated is that I am thick, biased, or do not understand. I will debate you, DK, or any of your collective colleagues on option pricing/theory, anywhere, anytime.

I don't have a challenge with the strategy... as mentioned before, I use the strategy myself when I think it appropriate; and I know the risks and rewards via the Greeks. Thus you cannot pull the wool over my (or several other's here) eyes.

What I do have a challenge with, is the misrepresentation of the risks and rewards. There are times in the market when the strategy is inappropriate, and times when the strategy will lose, even if the entry is entirely appropriate.

Ergo, every time you want to call me names and refuse to substantiate what you claim, you weaken your case to an even greater degree than already exists. It is the preserve of the scoundrel.

Of course, if you really want to rip me a new one, you could do so by substantiating your claims. Somehow, I doubt that my nether regions will be thus violated.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Nothing can harm my monthly profits, they keep rolling in month after month whether you know about it or  not.
> 
> I have already shown you two trades that I put on recently - from the day  I put them on until their successful conclusion. There is nothing retrospective about it.
> 
> 30 % p.a. is very achievable. Just because you can't get those returns doesn't mean others can't. Many of us do.




Monthly profits, month after month, giving 30% pa , year after year, are difficult if not impossible to believe.

Show some proof and substantiation.

Otherwise I consider you to be a fantasist.

gg


----------



## Sean K

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Monthly profits, month after month, giving 30% pa , year after year, are difficult if not impossible to believe.
> 
> Show some proof and substantiation.
> 
> Otherwise I consider you to be a fantasist.
> 
> gg



Yep, I really don't understand how anyone can consciously and morally claim such things without laying the detail out. I sincerely hope no one on ASF is gullible enough to believe a word of such claims without their own due dilligence. While this thread is slightly entertaining, its value lies in unmasking Alvin as one of ASFs greatest.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



kennas said:


> Yep, I really don't understand how anyone can consciously and morally claim such things without laying the detail out. I sincerely hope no one on ASF is gullible enough to believe a word of such claims without their own due dilligence. While this thread is slightly entertaining, its value lies in unmasking Alvin as one of ASFs greatest.




Yes i think this thread has pretty well demonstrated that anyone willing to sign up and pay thousands for one of DK's courses without asking questions that have been asked on this thread, probably deserves to lose their money, scam or not...


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> So, is that the best you can do?
> 
> Consumers Institute of New Zealand.
> 
> What a toothless tiger!
> 
> They, who are making an annual loss at the expense of the NZ taxpayer, mention Daniel Kertcher once: Under "Scams" - Daniel Kertcher trading options.
> 
> And that's it?
> 
> No follow up, no details? No prosecution - nothing, nada, zilch, nix. Ten years of nothing.
> 
> What a bunch of bureaucratic nohopers, being a drain on the taxpayer.
> 
> Then:  The NZ Herald.
> 
> Don't get me started on journalists. There must me a reason why journalists are way down on the list of trusted persons, down there somewhere near last place with used car salesmen and drug dealers.
> 
> As we have seen recently some journalists will stoop to anything to sell newspapers. Nuff said.
> 
> So, that leaves ASIC as the only credible authority. As we have seen, and has been pointed out by several people here, ASIC take their job very serious, start investigating when a complaint is made and take proper action in the courts  when prosecutions are warranted. They have a very good record of achieving results, exposing scams, issuing warnings and putting the guilty away.
> 
> So, what actions have ASIC taking against Daniel Kertcher?
> 
> I am sure there would have been some complaints lodged with ASIC. And ASIC would certainly have investigated. But it seems that no action was ever taken against Daniel Kertcher. Could it be that it was found that the complaints did not warrant prosecution? I can only guess.
> 
> This thread has been running for more than two years and a few people have already mentioned that it may be time to close it  down. They may have a point, but I'll leave it to the moderators.
> 
> Bye the way, the March Options expired this morning, and while not everyone of Daniel's trades was profitable, the large majority of them were and the total return of all trades for March was at the rate of about  30 % p.a.



How does DK not being mentioned in ASIC negate the other information about his past conduct?

So you've mentioned 2 successful trades you've had, I wish I could sell a trading system for thousands of dollars based only the evidence of 2 successful trades.  Maybe you are very profitable but you won't convince anyone without documented proof over a suitable time frame.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Thanks Samuel for that link. Inside was a dead hyperlink to consumer.org.nz, so I did some digging.
> 
> From the 2003 Annual Report of "Consumers Institute of New Zealand"
> 
> View attachment 51280
> 
> page 5
> See for yourself: http://www.consumer.org.nz/content/uploads/Image/PDFs/annualreport2003.pdf



If you are considering purchasing the Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits system please read the above excellent post.  You will see that he is listed under scams.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Anyone got an archive copy of this article?
> 
> http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153
> 
> 
> also referenced here
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=228205
> 
> 
> or this one from 2004
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=3551109
> 
> .
> 
> I think it is extremely apparent that Daniel Kertcher is a very successful, long time con artist. I am almost tempted to post a link to this thread on 4chan just to see what Anonymous would do about it. Mr Kertcher, I suggest you take your sock puppets and leave this forum for good, lest my temptation grow further.



If you are considering purchasing the Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits system please read the above excellent post.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> If you are considering purchasing the Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits system please read the above excellent post.




saroq,

Fair go mate. These articles are over 10 years old and have as much substance to them as a Today Tonight report.

My own feeling is that it's pretty obvious that Daniels courses etc are not a "scam" as such. They are valid and can be substantiated as a real product. There appears to be a lot of people that have bought his courses and were very happy with it (based on the testimonials on his site). However these testimonials come only from new students and relate directly to just the courses and their content, not their actual ongoing results. 

A scam insinuates that Daniel is taking money but not delivering the product that he's been promoting or just disappearing with peoples money all together. It seems as though people actually receive what they think they are paying for. That is, he delivers the courses and the information that they are signing up for. There's no doubt about that.

That of course doesn't necessarily mean that what he sells actually ends up turning people into long term profitable traders. Evidence of that is still yet to surface.... After 10 plus years there must be hundreds of people out there willing to share their success stories. There is no evidence of this....

WHERE ARE THEY? 

If it were a scam it would have been shut down years ago.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

For a rather large fee, for perhaps one of the simplest and common strategies that can be found anywhere on the Internet, DK purports that outsized gains can be safely made.

While the strategy is valid, the representation that consistent income can be safely made is not.

Ergo, though not the most heinous scam in the world, DK misrepresents the reality of trading this strategy.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Point taken fty129 but whether my re-posting of sinners posts contained information that was 10 years old or not isn't really relevant.  DK operates in a section of the business community that although not illegal is unethical.  As you pointed out were are the 100s of successful traders from his system?  

I wanted to make sure that the information in sinners posts didn't get lost in the replies from DK sock puppets.  People purchasing these types of education products do so because they believe they will teach them to make a substantial amount of money with relative ease.  It's a naive belief or hope but that's what DK's preying on and this type of business practice needs to be exposed.

wayneL summed it up well "While the strategy is valid, the representation that consistent income can be safely made is not.  Ergo, though not the most heinous scam in the world, DK misrepresents the reality of trading this strategy."


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

It'd be naive of anyone to think that the strategy is what makes them successful whether its through a book or really expensive course.
It never has been the case they make you the money and it never will be.

It'd be like saying everyone that goes to the gym ends up fit and the epitome of health and fitness.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I agree wholeheartedly with Wayne.

Also regarding ASIC this is an article pretty much summing up my opinions also, they are a toothless tiger. Just because ASIC havent acted doesnt mean that all is good

http://www.theage.com.au/business/watchdog-flags-its-fatal-weakness-no-teeth-20130325-2gonq.html


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Recently I recieved a message from Joe indicating that the below comment and specifically my statement at the end has been flagged by Daniel Kertchers lawyers as "it is a highly prejudicial statement and is plainly false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate and is devoid of any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts."

For the purpose of clarification (since Joe informs me he can't edit my original post - and neither can I), I would like to note that the statement is only my opinion, formed after reading the quoted and linked articles provided by ConsumerOrgNZ and the NZ Herald. I am not sure why those posts do not constitute "any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts" but I am not a lawyer.

I will be heading to the US next week for work with a major client, when I return I promise a significant attempt to substantiate my "highly prejudicial statement" with reference to objective facts. It appears Daniel Kertcher reads this thread, so I'd just like to let Daniel know that he should definitely keep watching this space 



sinner said:


> Anyone got an archive copy of this article?
> 
> http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153
> 
> 
> also referenced here
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=228205
> 
> 
> or this one from 2004
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=3551109
> 
> .
> 
> I think it is extremely apparent that Daniel Kertcher is a very successful, long time con artist.
> 
> ...


----------



## notting

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Who are the lawyers? Kermit and Bullwinkle?
What they are claiming damages from a forum thread whilst insisting that the thread stay live?
Yeah right.
Ponzi Persuits should sue their own lawyers if they could claim any damages, which they can't!


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

This just goes to show the lengths people go to and what ASF constantly faces and Joe has to deal with. Obviously it is important to remember this when posting to ensure that what you say is legit.


----------



## notting

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> This just goes to show the lengths people go to and what ASF constantly faces and Joe has to deal with. Obviously it is important to remember this when posting to ensure that what you say is legit.



You just need a disclaimer that the ASF is not responisible for any of the 'opinions' posted on the thread and if you recieve a genuine legal request to remove what may be  defamatory, then at that point ASF becomes responsible for doing that within a reasonable amount of time! 
Keep the facts coming about these wankers.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Personally, I thought a publication from consumer.org.nz listing Platinum Pursuits/Daniel Kertcher as a scam was enough to "legit"imise my comment. I am still unsure how it isn't. I am pretty sure I will recieve no clarification from either Daniel or his lawyers! He could easily come on here and deny that he was involved in the "dodgy Gold Coast apartment deals" in which ConsumerOrgNZ alleges his "clients" lost significant sums of money.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Recently I recieved a message from Joe indicating that the below comment and specifically my statement at the end has been flagged by Daniel Kertchers lawyers as "it is a highly prejudicial statement and is plainly false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate and is devoid of any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts."
> 
> For the purpose of clarification (since Joe informs me he can't edit my original post - and neither can I), I would like to note that the statement is only my opinion, formed after reading the quoted and linked articles provided by ConsumerOrgNZ and the NZ Herald. I am not sure why those posts do not constitute "any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts" but I am not a lawyer.
> 
> I will be heading to the US next week for work with a major client, when I return I promise a significant attempt to substantiate my "highly prejudicial statement" with reference to objective facts. It appears Daniel Kertcher reads this thread, so I'd just like to let Daniel know that he should definitely keep watching this space




It is always distressing when lawyers threaten, and particularly so, when one has not got the assets to defend oneself, particularly when a search for the truth is undertaken.

It is important to note that letters from solicitors can be written for as cheap as $300, which is chickenfeed for many professionals who feel their reputation is being damaged.

This $300 in the past has been money well spent in shutting down a conversation or quest for the truth. Nowadays though it rarely is. It often causes media with deeper pockets to take note and investigate the profligate spender of the $300. 

It is important to state where there is no proof , that the statement or action is "alleged ", if it has been.

If a decision of a court or tribunal has been made about a person's business, a link should be provided.

This is not legal advice, just my opinion.

gg


----------



## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Recently I recieved a message from Joe indicating that the below comment and specifically my statement at the end has been flagged by Daniel Kertchers lawyers as "it is a highly prejudicial statement and is plainly false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate and is devoid of any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts."




Lol. If Daniel's lawyers believe that the NZ Herald or NZ Consumer Institue are not "objective facts", then go write those companies a solicitor letter and see what happens. What are they trying to achieve by writing a letter to someone who link to them?!



sinner said:


> I think it is extremely apparent that Daniel Kertcher is a very successful, long time con artist. I am almost tempted to post a link to this thread on 4chan just to see what Anonymous would do about it. Mr Kertcher, I suggest you take your sock puppets and leave this forum for good, lest my temptation grow further.




It's difficult to know which part of the statement they think is false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate. May be the lawyers are referring to the term "successful" or "artist". Or may be Daniel doesn't have any sock puppets. Hard to know...


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Daniel, Daniel, Daniel.  It would have been smarter for you to let this thread die a natural death but now you've got people's backs up.  Watch this space I suspect more is coming your way.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi Daniel,

Some more reading for everyone http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm


----------



## danon

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Matteo said:


> I recently completed the Platinum Pursuits Tradeability Income course presented by Daniel Kertcher...




Thanks Matteo for your review, It definitely helped with my decision.  -Danon


----------



## Magda

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi, I am Magda.

I have just joined ASF and have so far made only one comment.

I find this forum fascinating but I first want to read all the posts  on most of the various threads before I make another comment.

From what I have seen so far there appear to be some people here who make absolute fools of themselves.

I don't want to be one of them and that is why I first want to read previous comments before I say another word.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

You probably should have resisted the urge to post your comment until you had something relevant to add to the topic being discussed.  Otherwise you run the risk of being perceived to be exactly what you say you don't want to be.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> It is always distressing when lawyers threaten, and particularly so, when one has not got the assets to defend oneself, particularly when a search for the truth is undertaken.
> 
> It is important to note that letters from solicitors can be written for as cheap as $300, which is chickenfeed for many professionals who feel their reputation is being damaged.
> 
> This $300 in the past has been money well spent in shutting down a conversation or quest for the truth. Nowadays though it rarely is. It often causes media with deeper pockets to take note and investigate the profligate spender of the $300.
> 
> It is important to state where there is no proof , that the statement or action is "alleged ", if it has been.
> 
> If a decision of a court or tribunal has been made about a person's business, a link should be provided.
> 
> This is not legal advice, just my opinion.
> 
> gg






skc said:


> Lol. If Daniel's lawyers believe that the NZ Herald or NZ Consumer Institue are not "objective facts", then go write those companies a solicitor letter and see what happens. What are they trying to achieve by writing a letter to someone who link to them?!
> 
> 
> 
> It's difficult to know which part of the statement they think is false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate. May be the lawyers are referring to the term "successful" or "artist". Or may be Daniel doesn't have any sock puppets. Hard to know...






saroq said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Some more reading for everyone http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm






Magda said:


> Hi, I am Magda.
> 
> I have just joined ASF and have so far made only one comment.
> 
> I find this forum fascinating but I first want to read all the posts  on most of the various threads before I make another comment.
> 
> From what I have seen so far there appear to be some people here who make absolute fools of themselves.
> 
> I don't want to be one of them and that is why I first want to read previous comments before I say another word.




And what word would that be Magda?

Your thoughts are running ahead of your comments though I wait with bated breath for your next post.

Shakespeare has a suitable quote.

“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

For those who attend Daniel Kertcher's Seminars who may not be familiar with William Shakespeare, he was the English speaking world's greatest dramatist, and captured the inner self of everyman, complete with foibles, greed, preying hawkers of easy wealth, poverty, happiness and sadness, and regret over unwise decisions.

Well worth a read Magda.

gg


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> Recently I recieved a message from Joe indicating that the below comment and specifically my statement at the end has been flagged by Daniel Kertchers lawyers as "it is a highly prejudicial statement and is plainly false, misleading, deceptive and/or inaccurate and is devoid of any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts."
> 
> For the purpose of clarification (since Joe informs me he can't edit my original post - and neither can I), I would like to note that the statement is only my opinion, formed after reading the quoted and linked articles provided by ConsumerOrgNZ and the NZ Herald. I am not sure why those posts do not constitute "any attempt to substantiate it by reference to objective facts" but I am not a lawyer.
> 
> I will be heading to the US next week for work with a major client, when I return I promise a significant attempt to substantiate my "highly prejudicial statement" with reference to objective facts. It appears Daniel Kertcher reads this thread, so I'd just like to let Daniel know that he should definitely keep watching this space




Hi Sinner This story made me think of your post.  Maybe you should send the same type of letter to Daniel's lawyers.  http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201..._n_3200748.html?1367503010&amp#es_share_ended  And if the link I'm pasting isn't published do a search for 
Irate Passenger Returns Rolled Up Refund Rejection Letter To Train Company With Explicit Instructions


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

For anyone still considering purchasing Daniel Kertcher’s options course, even after reading Matteo’s comprehensive post, please check out these links that have been provided by contributors to this forum.

http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-f...bjectid=228205

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...jectid=3551109

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm


----------



## danon

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> Hi, I am Magda.
> 
> I have just joined ASF and have so far made only one comment.
> 
> I find this forum fascinating but I first want to read all the posts  on most of the various threads before I make another comment.
> 
> From what I have seen so far there appear to be some people here who make absolute fools of themselves.
> 
> I don't want to be one of them and that is why I first want to read previous comments before I say another word.




I understand what you mean, I joined hoping to get some valid info's but really have no time reading someones rant. I notice reading comments here that there are plenty of angry people around specially the active posters but I keep a very low profile just in case they turn against me...


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



danon said:


> I understand what you mean, I joined hoping to get some valid info's but really have no time reading someones rant. I notice reading comments here that there are plenty of angry people around specially the active posters but I keep a very low profile just in case they turn against me...



Why don't you and Magda start a new topic rather than posting comments that are not relevant to this topic?  Or is this an attempt to side track the discussion away from the revealing posts about the suspect worth of DK's Platinum Pursuits course?  Please if you have something relevant to add to this topic post it but otherwise start a new topic and post your comments there.  This will help people like yourself get valid info about the topic rather than having to read rants.


----------



## Innocent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin is clearly an employee, he wouldn't be so defensive and so quickly start calling people names if he wasn't.  
I think he had better be warned that he could be fired for making fake posts if it ever came to light like this poor guy who surely must have known better! http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-negative-posts/story-e6frg6n6-1226650265846 

Will this forum also expose him? 

I was moved to comment because it was just too obvious. Who are mods? Do you have an official role on this website? Anyway Waynel sounds like he knows what he's talking about!


----------



## RichieBoy

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Just found this thread about Daniel and Trading Pursuits (previously Platinum Pursuits) and thought I would offer my opinion as someone who has been using Daniel's strategy for almost 2 years...happily I may add 

Also I read the first page and couldn't be bothered to read any further so apologies if I am repeating stuff previously said.

Daniel offers 3 courses Income, Income Plus and Master all of which are about the same sort of price (a few thousand each) and I have done all 3. I have also made back all of the costs of the courses and then some 

I completed the first course and started trading with 10K in my account for a few months which was a great idea as I did make some mistakes and needed a bit of time to get completely comfortable with the strategy of writing Covered Calls and Naked Puts.

Then I was able to borrow more cash and traded for some more months to make enough money to pay for the next  courses.

Following completing all 3 I settled on regularly trading just one of the Income Plus strategies which was writing Naked Puts and Naked Calls only. I ditched the covered calls as the returns are a lot lower than naked options (but of course it carries more risk....which I was comfortable with at that point as I had been trading naked puts for quite a while by that point).

So all in all I was trading with around 50K in my account, utilizing higher percentage than recommended (about 70%), making on average about 1.5 to 2K per month.

You do not need to buy the MarketAnalyst software as TP's site offers a calculator, or just create a spreadsheet yourself the calcs are pretty easy (that's what I did).

You do need to pay the monthly fee for the report as this is the main useful feature of TP, the strategies are simple to grasp but findings the trades that tend to be profitable is the key, $50 per month...bargin in my opinion.

Guess that's about it, I'm going to continue using the strategy as I think it's great, I would recommend the course to others if you do have a balance of say over 20K to trade with. Yep the course is expensive and it's pretty scary to part with that sort of cash if you've never done that before but sometimes you have to take a chance!!!


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



RichieBoy said:


> So all in all I was trading with around 50K in my account, utilizing higher percentage than recommended (about 70%), making on average about 1.5 to 2K per month.




RichieBoy, thanks for your review as a client. When you say you're utilising 70%, would you mind clarifying what you mean? Can you let us know what kind of markets you invest in (just ASX stocks or anything optionable?) and what kind of drawdowns you associate with a losing month?


----------



## RichieBoy

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> RichieBoy, thanks for your review as a client. When you say you're utilising 70%, would you mind clarifying what you mean? Can you let us know what kind of markets you invest in (just ASX stocks or anything optionable?) and what kind of drawdowns you associate with a losing month?




Sure, by 70% I mean that I invest about 70% of my 50K balance (about 35K) - this is not what TP recommend in the current market conditions for this strategy, they say about 20-40%, I am taking on more risk. The trades are all based on the US markets and it is selling options on large companies (this is why the original poster said you need to have a large starting balance as you can be looking to sell options for stock prices ranging from say $30 to $700 - like Google for example). This is also why the timings can be a bit of a pain as you ideally want to be trading at market open and close US (so for my timezone that can mean 11pm or 1am).

As for drawdowns, that can be large in a month depending on what happens to the market when the options are nearing expiry. You do get some months when you are down and I have had month's where I have been down 2-3K (but they are rare and average out OK over time). However this is an important point you raise as IMHO you have to expect to have some of these months and be OK with having that sort of loss for a month or 2 before making profits again. Trading has risk and although TP advise on what to do, in reality each of us may do slightly different things, follow advice or not, hold on a bit longer or try to hedge ourselves?

I'm not saying that this is a fantastic sure fire thing, I just felt that there were a lot of negative opinions in posts from people that may not have actually tried it out (which is perfectly fine and valid), I just wanted to share my experience. Personally I want to interact with other traders that have had good experiences with using different strategies so that we can try those out. This one is working well for me, so I thought I'd share


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Richiboy

It's not the strategy folks are negative about, The strategy is what it is, with risks, rewards and probabilities.

It is the marketing, via a vis inaccurate representations of risk, reward and probability that annoys folks.

FWIW


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



RichieBoy said:


> Sure, by 70% I mean that I invest about 70% of my 50K balance (about 35K)




I am still not sure what this means exactly in the context of naked selling premiums?

What I am trying to figure out is if the positions you are selling are cash secured or not?


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sinner said:


> I am still not sure what this means exactly in the context of naked selling premiums?
> 
> What I am trying to figure out is if the positions you are selling are cash secured or not?




They do not seem to be cash secured, reason being he said covered call gives lower return than naked premium writing, if he were to cash secure it would be very similar returns to covered calls. 70% of margin of total account is what I think he bases it on. 30% probably for margin fluctuation cushion and maybe addon trades.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So, RichieBoy is making an annual return of about 42 % according to his own statement and I have no reason to doubt that.

He states that he is using 70 % of his capital (which is much higher than recommended) and that he is now hardly using covered calls but mainly the much riskier naked calls and puts. He has been doing this for two years and acknowledges that he has learnt this technique from Daniel Kertcher. 

Obviously, RichieBoy is happy with the result and I am sure he does not think that Daniel is a scam.

I, on the other hand, have been using this method for 3 years and am mainly using the much safer covered calls technique, with only the occasional naked put or call, but only with way-out-of-money strikes provided the premiums are still reasonably high.

Doing this month after month I have achieved an average return of 30 % p.a. (somewhat less than RichieBoy) and in the process have had my course costs of $3200.00 returned to me 100-fold.

Now why is it that one poster can claim a return of 42 % p.a. and nobody bats an eyelid, but another poster who uses a similar, but much safer technique, and claims a 30 %p.a. return gets attacked left right and centre?

Go figure.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I am still yet to see any actual proof in the form of broker statements. Until then, it's all just online talk which means nothing


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> I am still yet to see any actual proof in the form of broker statements. Until then, it's all just online talk which means nothing




+100


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Prawn-86, sails and the rest of you:

There are 14 pages to this thread and dozens and dozens of posts, but I have not seen one broker's  statement yet.  So I made some enquiries and guess what I found? It is actually against the rules to publish a broker's  statement because it could be construed as an incentive to invest. And that is definitely against the rules. I am surprised that your moderators and administrators don't know that.

In any case, this thread is not about me, it is about Daniel Kertcher. None of you have been able to prove that he is a scam. And the few people that have actually taken his course and follow the rules  (more or less) all report positive results.

The last time I checked the ASIC list of scams (yesterday), which is quite a comprehensive list, I could not find Daniel's name or Trading Pursuits or Platinum Pursuits on that list. ASIC may be underfunded and overworked but since Daniel has educated tens of thousands of people over the years you would think that a fair number would have lodged complaints with ASIC if they thought they had been scammed. But: Nothing, Nada, Zilch.

No, I am not an employee of Daniel's, just a very happy customer whose life has been turned around in a big way.
By studying his methods and following the rules I have built a small capital base into a substantial capital base and with an average return of 30 % p.a. over the last three years I now enjoy a nice and steady income of $10k+ per month for doing very little work. This leaves me plenty of time to pursue my other interests and, being Alvin Purple, you all know what my interests are.

Whether any of you believe my 30 % p.a. returns or not does not make one Iota of difference to me. My friends (both male and female) know that those returns are a fact and that's all that matters to me.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> There are 14 pages to this thread and dozens and dozens of posts, but I have not seen one broker's  statement yet.  So I made some enquiries and guess what I found? It is actually against the rules to publish a broker's  statement because it could be construed as an incentive to invest. And that is definitely against the rules. I am surprised that your moderators and administrators don't know that.




It's not against ASF rules. And it seems very convenient that such a great 'system' wont allow you to prove how great it is. 

Buyer beware...


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The strategy is still a *synthetic naked put*, all tarted up like a pox doctors clerk, but that's what it is.

The strategy is what it is, with risks, rewards and probabilities.

If I was going to use this strategy, i.e. naked put, I would just use the natural (and sometimes I do).

It's not the strategy, it's the misrepresentation of those risks, rewards and probabilities that are olfactorily offensive. (and to save you googling that Alvin, it means "it stinks").


----------



## doctorj

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> It is actually against the rules to publish a broker's  statement because it could be construed as an incentive to invest. And that is definitely against the rules. I am surprised that your moderators and administrators don't know that.




I'm not sure I agree.  I could understand why Daniel, the Company and those associated with it, couldn't share broker statements in isolatation and without abiding by the requirements of their AFSL.  However, you're not associated with the Company (and therefore not bound by the AFSL), you're also not giving financial advice (as broker statements are by definition backward looking and inherently useless) and you're not receiving any commission or other incentive to promote Daniel's service so you're not acting as an agent on his behalf.  So in short, I can't see any reason why you couldn't share your broker statements.  

Unfortunately, all this evasiveness and lack of transparency only serves to further bring into question the image of this company, rather than promote or defend it as you seem to be hoping to do.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



doctorj said:


> Unfortunately, all this evasiveness and lack of transparency only serves to further bring into question the image of this company, rather than promote or defend it as you seem to be hoping to do.




Couldn't agree more.

I'm always willing to give everyone a fair go but over 10 years with no proof from anyone about their success is really testing my patience....


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> I'm always willing to give everyone a fair go but over 10 years with no proof from anyone about their success is really testing my patience....




Agree as well.  The Platinum Pursuits pundits should put up or ... well you know how that ends.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Evasiveness? Lack of transparency?

WTF are you talking about?

Some months ago I was giving you a running commentary on my trades as I was putting them on. All of those trades turned out to be profitable. I told you about that lovely way-out-of-the-money Apple call with that huge premium  that I found on my broker's call list and which doubled my profit for that month. I told you that INTEL was on the move and this prediction also turned out to be correct.

Do any of you ever do any profitable trading at all? 

All you seem to do is desperately trying to find a way to denigrate Daniel and somehow try to prove that he is  a scam. 

Well, you have failed.

I know quite a few traders who did the course with me three and a half years ago, as well as some who have done the course recently. Not one of them had any complaints about the way the course was conducted or that Daniel did not deliver what he promised. And all of those who kept following the rules and did not get seduced into using riskier methods, are making money from their trading.

By the way, July expiry is this Saturday and all the covered call trades are currently running in profit and it looks like July will be another profitable month with a return of about 2.5 % ROI.


----------



## stockGURU

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

Those of us who have spent a lot of time on internet forums have seen your type many times before in countless other threads. You magically appear from nowhere claiming that you just found this thread or a friend told you about it and that you feel compelled to defend whatever product or service is being criticised. You never stick around to post in any other threads to demonstrate your trading genius or make any attempt to become a genuine member of whatever online community you are targeting. You are here to do a very specific job and have no interest in participating beyond that. You are, in effect, a visiting testimonial from Daniel's website, and there is nothing genuine about you or your presence here. You make a lot of claims but back none of them up. In your time here, you have responded to exactly none of the well articulated criticisms of Daniel's courses. Instead, you simply continue to make unverifiable claims and sling mud at others in an attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you are a shill:



> A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization.
> 
> "Shill" typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that they are an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) for whom they are secretly working. The person or group who hires the shill is using crowd psychology to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by professional marketing campaigns. "Plant" and "stooge" more commonly refer to any person who is secretly in league with another person or organization while pretending to be neutral or actually a part of the organization he is planted in, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization (see double agent).




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

Nobody who is a regular here at ASF is taken in by your act and I sincerely hope that nobody who comes across this thread in the future is taken in by it. I hope they see it for what it is, a very transparent attempt to mitigate any damage this thread is doing to Daniel's business by making claims to profitability that you have repeatedly refused to verify. 

As I said, we have seen it all before, and will see it again in other threads in the future. Your shtick is old and tired, and now it is getting boring. Predictably, your attempt to turn this thread around has backfired. Your empty claims to profitability impress nobody, and all you can do here now is repeat yourself endlessly, which will only serve to damage your cause further.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> For anyone still considering purchasing Daniel Kertcher’s options course, even after reading Matteo’s comprehensive post, please check out these links that have been provided by contributors to this forum.
> 
> http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-f...bjectid=228205
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...jectid=3551109
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm




Well said stock guru but please allow me to repeat myself.  For anyone considering Daniel Kertcher's course please read the information in the links above to help you in your research before making your decision.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



doctorj said:


> I'm not sure I agree.  I could understand why Daniel, the Company and those associated with it, couldn't share broker statements in isolatation and without abiding by the requirements of their AFSL.  However, you're not associated with the Company (and therefore not bound by the AFSL), you're also not giving financial advice (as broker statements are by definition backward looking and inherently useless) and you're not receiving any commission or other incentive to promote Daniel's service so you're not acting as an agent on his behalf.  So in short, I can't see any reason why you couldn't share your broker statements.
> 
> Unfortunately, all this evasiveness and lack of transparency only serves to further bring into question the image of this company, rather than promote or defend it as you seem to be hoping to do.




Alvin you care to respond to this?


----------



## lael

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Alvin you care to respond to this?




I found this thread after already signing up for Daniel's course. It still seemed like a good idea to me, so I went ahead and did it. I don't have any personal experience to speak from yet (in terms of trading) - but I just went to Daniel's seminar on last weekend. Was it 4K? Yeah, it was. Is that a lot of money - yeah it is. Value for money? We'll see. It was definitely an informative and excellent introduction to trading to produce ongoing income. 

 Historically (looking back over their trades that you get access to if you do the course and pay $50 a month for the report) the hit ratio is something like 90-95% success. Of course - those that go down, are pretty big losses. Diversified, not as much a deal. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BquDGE9KxZQ as linked to was fascinating - and is a pretty good summary of the Tradeability Income seminar's strategy - but... you do get manuals, dvd's of the course, and guided trades found for you. All up - honestly - I'm very happy with the course and considering doing the other ones he offers. I might be more or less happy in 6 months  

That said - there were a few people re-sitting the course that had blown up their accounts and every one of them said it was because they didn't play by the rules of the strategy - which sounds like a common refrain among traders in general from my limited experience. oh - I found it really interesting that one of the first posters said he blew up his account in Aug 2011, and Karen said that was the same month they took heavy losses that took a few months to pay back - which is exactly the warning Daniel gives at the seminar - that its small, incremental growth - save your wins for 6 months as a buffer. Of course, if Aug 2011 was your first month doing it - that's poor consolation. 

The returns look good - When they produce the report they show the %ages of return, and they vary depending on the vix and the stock and the market. The only thing I didn't like is that the returns they pitch on are calculated on only the actively engaged capital, rather than all of the tied-up capital (50% for money management - same as Karen suggests) so it doesn't really reflect the opportunity cost for that capital. That said - returns in low months look like about 2.5%-5% (on ALL capital) per month. Which is in line with what Karen says she is getting. 

So far, I'm happy. I'll post back with my actual trading experiences in a few months time. Mr Market might be kind, he might be nasty... who knows.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I too have purchased Daniel's 3 courses over the last 2 years but have settled on using just one, namely the Income Plus strategies selling Naked PUTs and Naked CALLs monthly. Over the last 18 years I have subscribed to countless Gurus from David Bowden (trading the SPI) to Aussie Rob (red and green lines). I paper traded Aussie Rob for 8 months and never felt comfortable enough to trade live and gave up on it plus my $10k cost. At some point, one gets the feel for a strategy that is genuine and workable and I found Daniel's Income plus to be it. I am now trading Daniel's strategies under my SMSF solely and in this new FY 2013 picked up a return of 6.48% for the 1st month. I have slightly tweaked the rules to diminish the risks and I am aiming for a 50% annual return on account balance. I believe this is achievable. Would love to have others in similar circumstances either post here or message me privately.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Gee the marketing department is in full swing now. 

But as usual no confirmed results. All just Blah Blah.

We are all hero's on the internet.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I too make 1500% pa trading my own strategy. Who wants to buy it off me? 

Personally i think that anyone who has read this thread and then still decides to pay for Daniels course, almost deserves to lose their money. Which by all accounts they will, as i am yet to see ANY broker statements showing any of Daniels 'students' making a profit.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Just about every single one of these clowns selling covered call 'education/systems' claim circa 40% PA  returns, or 4% per month or some such variation.

This begs the question - why don't professionals and funds quit ####ing around with sophisticated models, and just write covered calls for themselves and their clients?

Hey start with a paltry hundred grand of savings and be a billionaire.

$100,000.00
$140,000.00
$196,000.00
$274,400.00
$384,160.00
$537,824.00
$752,953.60
$1,054,135.04
$1,475,789.06
$2,066,104.68
$2,892,546.55
$4,049,565.17
$5,669,391.24
$7,937,147.73
$11,112,006.83
$15,556,809.56
$21,779,533.38
$30,491,346.73
$42,687,885.42
$59,763,039.59
$83,668,255.43
$117,135,557.60
$163,989,780.63
$229,585,692.89
$321,419,970.04
$449,987,958.06
$629,983,141.28
$881,976,397.79
$1,234,766,956.91

Prawn is right. Anyone who falls for this crap uncritically does deserve to lose their money.

It's cliche', but it's picking up pennies in front of the steam roller... easy money til the machine catches you one day.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> i am yet to see ANY broker statements showing any of Daniels 'students' making a profit.




*Making profits consistently over 2, 3, 5+ years* might I add.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Do I care to respond?

Maybe, but only after I have stopped laughing my ass off.


----------



## doctorj

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Do I care to respond?
> 
> Maybe, but only after I have stopped laughing my ass off.




In summary...


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Sorry guys, I still haven't stopped laughing yet. You are just too funny for  words.

BTW, after seeing this morning's quarterly results for Apple I went out all day celebrating with my friends (male and female). My covered calls on Apple are now so much in profit I'll collect one month's profit after only one week this coming Saturday. Just doing what Daniel's rules proscribe.


----------



## beachlife

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So if I read  this correctly you have been in the trade around 1 week, so you would have bought aapl at around $425 and sold your calls 1-2 strikes out maybe $435 for around $10, so that's a capped profit of about $20, but it is up $24 at the moment, so you are actually worse off using a covered calls strategy, especially if it keeps running up tomorrow.  Just a guess.  Would be interested to see your actual numbers.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



beachlife said:


> Would be interested to see your actual numbers.




Wouldn't we all... Lots of talk and hindsight trading and yet still no proof


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

And like I keep pointing out, these are high probability trades.

But high probability does not guarantee a profit at the end of the day/week/year/decade, as LTCM (and a multitude of others) found out.

Alvin Purple feigns laughter, but in fact any actual option professional has a giggle when these turkeys come along with their claims of easy money, because though losses are low probability, probability is only part of the equation. we have the little problem of mathematical expectancy, the sum of losses versus the sum of wins...

...oh, and losses do occur, no matter what mendacious shills like Alvin claim.

Stop losses?

Pffffft

Alvin has already illustrated earlier in this thread his complete lack of knowledge of Greeks and synthetic relationships, the basic tools options professionals use to quantify and manage positions and risk. In fact anyone who understands the probability curve in trading will realize that stop losses on these short option positions, though they MAY limit the magnitude of loss, actually increase their number....

Enter the expectancy equation again. 

Now there is no reason this type of trading cannot be profitable, but there are certain realities that Kertcher and his shills are desperate to hide from course attendee prospects and also "graduates". That is, the true mathematics of this type of trading.

The ones that lose are told they "didn't follow the rules". Perhaps true, but highlights that management of these trades takes more knowledge and experience than what a 3 day crash course and MLM/Amway style psychological brainwashing (with accompanying silly grin and "we're going to be rich in no time" fantasies).

And speaking of amusement and having a big ol' belly laugh, I'd love to see Kertcher or any of his asinine shills have a debate on this topic with a bona fide option professional. Lets say someone like Larry McMillan..... or Charles Cottle. I'd pay to see that.

The underlying point they would make, in addition to the maths/Greeks etc is that its not how much you win, or how often you win, *it's how much you lose when you lose*.

Anyone around options longer than 10 seconds can construct trades with 80%... 90%... even 95% probability of being ultimately profitable, so what? So did LTCM and a million other suckers.

I do these often enough with a strategy I've described somewhere on this forum, the seasonal non-tendency trade. These have statistics, history and massive probability on their side, yet I still keep a stock of Digitalis on hand and a host of defensive strategies. Even then, sometimes they lose. That's trading.

Every experienced trader knows these things, yet these dog & pony show tricksters suck in the gullible with smoke and mirrors, asking folks to believe in the suspension of real world mathematics. 

*That's why Alvin is here folks, to muddy the waters, Guerrilla marketing, trying to mend the utter decimation to the credibility of his boss' program by the folks who have talked utter good sense here by warning of the downside to this type of trading.*

Nice try Alvin, you've fought hard for your Meister (and probably your job). But it won't work mate, folks here actually have a brain.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yep, you've got it. Daniel is my Meister.

It is now about 1.00 am Saturday, July 27. The weekly options will expire at 6.00 am. If Apple ends up below $450.00, I'll collect about $17k. These are of course covered calls (just as my Meister advised) I bought the CFDs at $418.95 and sold the $450 calls when Apple was at $440.77 (it's called "delayed call writing", but you know that of  course). Everybody and his dog knew that Apple was going to exceed expectations, that why the shares spiked up 5 % after I'd bought them. There was also a Guaranteed Stop Loss, but you know that too.

I am telling you all this while the trade is still in progress, no hindsight required.

I have to thank your guys for that, and also, of course, my Meister.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yep, you've got it. Daniel is my Meister.
> 
> It is now about 1.00 am Saturday, July 27. The weekly options will expire at 6.00 am. If Apple ends up below $450.00, I'll collect about $17k. These are of course covered calls (just as my Meister advised) I bought the CFDs at $418.95 and sold the $450 calls when Apple was at $440.77 (it's called "delayed call writing", but you know that of  course). Everybody and his dog knew that Apple was going to exceed expectations, that why the shares spiked up 5 % after I'd bought them. There was also a Guaranteed Stop Loss, but you know that too.
> 
> I am telling you all this while the trade is still in progress, no hindsight required.
> 
> I have to thank your guys for that, and also, of course, my Meister.




Which CFD provider is it?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Edit: Found it, turns out it was good old IG!

Nice trade Alvin, but what if Apple gapped the other way? Stacking up on leverage right before earning is just flipping a big coin...

GSLO's are a min 5% away for something like Apple. From experience, they also generally double the min %away before earnings, so it won't protect you from all but the most vicious moves. Don't really see what the trade was here.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin how about posting some results for a change, not type up a trade just as it's about to finish profitably. 

If you and your dog knew for sure (because apparently everybody and their dog knew according to you) earnings were going to be exceeded then the least smart thing to do is to write a covered call. Why did you not just long the CFD or a negative vega uncapped profits options trade. Capping your profit when you knew it was going to gap up does not make sense to me. Hit me up if your dog needs a new loving home, I would love to know beforehand how future earnings going to turn up.

Post up your trades in the future, we will compare as I have one account dedicated to shorting premium. I will kick it off as I was in Apple for this week too:


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yep, you've got it. Daniel is my Meister.
> 
> It is now about 1.00 am Saturday, July 27. The weekly options will expire at 6.00 am. If Apple ends up below $450.00, I'll collect about $17k. These are of course covered calls (just as my Meister advised) I bought the CFDs at $418.95 and sold the $450 calls when Apple was at $440.77 (it's called "delayed call writing", but you know that of  course). Everybody and his dog knew that Apple was going to exceed expectations, that why the shares spiked up 5 % after I'd bought them. There was also a Guaranteed Stop Loss, but you know that too.
> 
> I am telling you all this while the trade is still in progress, no hindsight required.
> 
> I have to thank your guys for that, and also, of course, my Meister.




Alvin sticks his fingers in his ears singing la la la la.

...and hasn't addressed a single point. One sparrow does not a summer make. LCTM raked in money for a long time and then blew itself up with a self detonated 100 megaton hydrogen bomb... to the tune of "told ya so" from a thousand educated traders.

The option pages of other trading forums are full of these wombats.

The real entertainment is when they do start doing a bunch of live trades, the market Gods always eventually show people exactly how this can go wrong... especially when the perp is a cocky smart@rse with no idea of option basics. 

Skyquake gets it in a nutshell, AAPL could easily have gapped the other way resulting in a loss.

But I want to repeat my earlier point. There is nothing wrong with a loss, we all get losses. It is how they are handled in the greater scheme of things which determined profitability after 1000 trades.

The naive bluster from silly course graduates and Kertcher sock-puppets shows they are singularly unprepared for the realities of trading when they come along... like it did to LTCM, the purported "smartest guys in the room".

pffffffft


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



beachlife said:


> So if I read  this correctly you have been in the trade around 1 week, so you would have bought aapl at around $425 and sold your calls 1-2 strikes out maybe $435 for around $10, so that's a capped profit of about $20, but it is up $24 at the moment, so you are actually worse off using a covered calls strategy, especially if it keeps running up tomorrow.  Just a guess.  Would be interested to see your actual numbers.




No beachlife. I bought AAPL CFDs at $418.95 and delayed the writing of the calls for a short while with a GSL in place. When AAPL went to $440.77 I sold a corresponding number of  $450 calls (expiring July 26) for $1.70. My downside risk was Zero and since AAPL closed below $450 at expiry, the options expired worthless and I collected all of the option premium as profit. Had AAPL ended up above $450, I would have been forced to sell my AAPL CFDs at a huge profit.

As I still have the CFDs, I am doing the same thing again this week. Last Saturday morning, when it became obvious that AAPL would not reach $450, I sold August 2 $450 calls  for a $1.75 premium. Remember, I bought the CFDs at $418.95, the GSL is still in place at break-even point, my worst possible outcome is that I will break even, but most likely I will make another profit similar to this week's.

You will not see my broker's statement (after all, they can be doctored up and photoshopped). The best way to make you understand how all this works is to tell you about the trades as I am putting them on and then all of you can follow the progress by watching the market.

I know of no better way to prove a point than by telling you what I will be doing and then we can all sit back and watch the trade develop. And by the end of the week we all can see the outcome. Fair  enough?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yes, wayneL, Skyquake is right. AAPL could have easily spiked downwards, although most people could see that it was in an upward trend. Had AAPL crashed though, I had (and still have) a GSL in place. I would not have made a profit, but would have broken even.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

minwa - you gotta be kidding. Is that supposed to be a statement?  All pinked out, doctored up and photoshopped.

No, I can do better than that. How about I tell you about my trades as I am putting them on (as I have just done in my reply to beachlife) and then we can all watch and see what develops by the end of the week.

(And please, no more of these so-called statements, all that PINK makes me dizzy.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yes, wayneL, Skyquake is right. AAPL could have easily spiked downwards, although most people could see that it was in an upward trend. Had AAPL crashed though, I had (and still have) a GSL in place. I would not have made a profit, but would have broken even.




Explain how you could have broke even?

Stock gaps 5% against you, and you have sold no calls.

The GSL only allows you to set the stop loss 5% away so its moot.

Thanks


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

As AAPL is generally contrapuntal to the SPY, a contingent buy order on the SPY provided protection. Less than 24 hours later  AAPL gapped up, the calls were sold, the buy order on the SPY was cancelled, and the GSL was placed.

Since the GSL was not triggered last week, it is still in place for this week's trade.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> As AAPL is generally contrapuntal to the SPY, a contingent buy order on the SPY provided protection. Less than 24 hours later  AAPL gapped up, the calls were sold, the buy order on the SPY was cancelled, and the GSL was placed.
> 
> Since the GSL was not triggered last week, it is still in place for this week's trade.




First of all AAPL has a positive 0.4~ correlation with the S&P (it makes up 2.7% of the S&P 500)

Second of all the move in the S&P futs will be far far more jaded than the move in apple, so it'll be a terrible hedge. S&P futs moved about 2pts (0.12%) vs AAPL's 5% spike post market - see attached.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hahah he has no clue about hedging, dont bother he won't understand.

No proffessionals trade CFDs as main instrument (yes some trade them for fun). There's a reason only Kertcher/Mcintyre type of people sell this systems to the mums & dads.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> As AAPL is generally *contrapuntal* to the SPY, a contingent buy order on the SPY provided protection. Less than 24 hours later  AAPL gapped up, the calls were sold, the buy order on the SPY was cancelled, and the GSL was placed.




Oh dear he is simply clueless. What a terrible butchering of terms let alone utterly woeful pretend at a hedge.

Now we are getting the real laughs.


----------



## zac

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> Hahah he has no clue about hedging, dont bother he won't understand.
> 
> No proffessionals trade CFDs as main instrument (yes some trade them for fun). There's a reason only Kertcher/Mcintyre type of people sell this systems to the mums & dads.




Americans don't even know what CFD's are however lots of pro's use instruments with far more leverage and danger than CFD's.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Over the last three months AAPL was contrapuntal to the SPY 90 %  of the time and last Wednesday was no exception. When AAPL gapped up so beautifully, the SPY went  down. That is the reason why my contingent buy order on SPY was not triggered.

minwa, you are not very professional the way you spell professional. In any case, I never claimed to be a professional trader, I am nothing but a bloody amateur who happens to make a lot of money trading.

Anyway, I have told you about my trade this week, let's just wait until Saturday to see how it turns out.


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am nothing but a bloody amateur who happens to make a lot of money trading.




More empty claims, show the audited statement or get a lifetime ban, you pick one...


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Over the last three months AAPL was contrapuntal to the SPY 90 %  of the time and last Wednesday was no exception. When AAPL gapped up so beautifully, the SPY went  down. That is the reason why my contingent buy order on SPY was not triggered.
> 
> minwa, you are not very professional the way you spell professional. In any case, I never claimed to be a professional trader, I am nothing but a bloody amateur who happens to make a lot of money trading.
> 
> Anyway, I have told you about my trade this week, let's just wait until Saturday to see how it turns out.




Actually over the last 3 months Apple moved the same direction as the S&P 56% of the time.

In any case a contingent buy on the SPY would have been useless as the magnitude of the Apple move will dwarf the SPY move, plus the SPY will have other factors affecting it far more than apple results. Eg Econ figures, Asian markets.
If apple had gapped the other way, it would have made the S&P 1 maybe 2pts lower. No hedge either way.

As for your new trade, its pretty unclear to me what you're doing. So far, I know you've sold 2x Apple $450 calls for $1.75 each. What was the price of apple when you did this? Where was your cfd's stop? Otherwise its too hard to see which trade is which with the P/L from one trade rolling into the next.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Over the last three months AAPL was contrapuntal to the SPY 90 %  of the time




What a joke, crazy statement!

"Contrapuntal to the SPY" 

"Contrapuntal to the SPY 90% of the time"

What is the basis for these claims? 

Certainly it isn't the rolling correlation between closes, daily range, or implied volatility, because even a cursory glance at these numbers shows a positive correlation over 65 trading days, the accepted quarterly number. Movements opposite, at a rate of 90% of occurrences, would surely show up as a negative correlation of some sort, *somewhere*.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The question is: Can you handle the truth? In my humble opinion "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

The simple fact is that what I did last week I have done many times before and the outcome was either a profit or a break-even situation.

I have also told you exactly what I am doing this week and just to clarify a few points I will give you the exact details. Again, no hindsight required, as this trade will not finish until Saturday morning, August 3, 2013.

Last Tuesday, July 23 I bought a large number of AAPL CFDs at $418.95. Next day I sold a corresponding number of   call option contracts, Strike $450, premium $1.70, expiry date July 26. On Saturday morning (July 27) AAPL ended up at $440.99, the options expired worthless and I collected all the premium income as profit.

Just before market close (5.50 a.m. Saturday, July 27) I sold the same number of call option contracts, Strike $450, premium $1.75, expiry date August 2. The GSL was moved to $418.90 which is slightly above break-even point.

So, all I have to do is wait until Saturday morning, 6.00 a.m. when the options expire.

There are only three possible outcomes: AAPL ends up above $450 in which case I will have to sell my CFDs at a huge profit (remember I bought them at $418.95)

The second scenario is if AAPL ends up below $450 but above $418.95 in which case the options expire worthless (just as they did last week) and I collect all the premium income as profit.

The third scenario is if AAPL ends up below $418.90 in which case my CFDs are sold at $418.90, I'll lose 5 cents per share but still collect the call option premium of $1.75 per share and make a profit similar to that in the second scenario.

To me as an amateur it seems there is no way I can lose. The only thing that is not certain is how big my profit will be.

But what would I know? I am only an amateur. I am sure you professionals will soon tell me there is still a way I can lose. 

I prefer to sit back, enjoy the lovely spring weather we are having, and just wait till Saturday morning to see what happens.


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I have banned Alvin Purple for 7 days or until he shows an audited statement of his claims of profits...


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



CanOz said:


> I have banned Alvin Purple for 7 days or until he shows an audited statement of his claims of profits...




You could have left his post from 10.38pm (dated 29/7) instead of deleting it so others can judge the validity of his claim if/when he shows his statement. Please re-instate it in the name of democracy and fair play.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



calpereira said:


> You could have left his post from 10.38pm (dated 29/7) instead of deleting it so others can judge the validity of his claim if/when he shows his statement. Please re-instate it in the name of democracy and fair play.





Just how many sock puppets does this guy have up his sleeve? Is like half of ASF dormant sock puppets registered by trolls and scammers?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

This trade as purported by Alvin is all fine and dandy: 

Long stock (or derivative thereof) which there was risk of loss with the stop out, stop moved to BE and calls written along the way.  Nothing ingenious, unusual, or clever about that and still subject to having a trading edge and mathematical expectancy.

But IIRC has nothing to do with the Kertcher system as purported by Alvin represented earlier, which entailed buying CFDs and wringing an ITM call... AKA synthetic OTM short put.

With this system Alvin made a number of claims which defied probability and whichever option pricing model you want to use... IOW, total BS. Of course these were unceremoniously dismantled.

Now this synthetic OTM short put system has (purportedly) transmogrified into the above discretionary trading.

I repeat there is nothing wrong with either type of trading; they are what they are with wins, losses and subject to  expectancy and probability.

The reason Alvin is being asked to substantiate his results is because of the earlier claims of overall profitability and the fanciful claim of never having made a loss.

ASF exists for the sharing of valid ideas and information on investing and trading, not as the marketing arm of the various seminar clowns and their preposterous shills.

We've had fun with Alvin, but the banter has continued long enough, it's time to put up or STFU.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

"Alvin Purple" aside, I like many other people following this thread have never traded a CFD, so some of the references to how this system works are a little unclear...

From what I can gather here, CFD's are used to buy the stock and a "guaranteed stop loss" is put in place at break even. Calls are then written against the stock and I'm guessing, dividends could possibly be collected too...

Is that correct?

If so, then where does the risk of loss come in to play? 

Could someone please explain how this does (or doesn't) work and where the risk of loss is? 

I'm having trouble understanding where the risk is and it's probably because I don't understand the mechanics of the CFD GSL.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> "Alvin Purple" aside, I like many other people following this thread have never traded a CFD, so some of the references to how this system works are a little unclear...
> 
> From what I can gather here, CFD's are used to buy the stock and a "guaranteed stop loss" is put in place at break even. Calls are then written against the stock and I'm guessing, dividends could possibly be collected too...
> 
> Is that correct?
> 
> If so, then where does the risk of loss come in to play?
> 
> Could someone please explain how this does (or doesn't) work and where the risk of loss is?
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding where the risk is and it's probably because I don't understand the mechanics of the CFD GSL.
> 
> Thanks in advance.




The guarantee stop loss order is just any other stop loss, except the price is guaranteed even in case of massive gaps. However for the privilege, you pay 0.3% prem, and the stop must be set no less than 5% away from the last price.
So 10bp to buy, 10bp to sell, and 30bp prem = 0.5% total spent

On apple thats about $2.50 which will eat heavily into the option prem.

In short, no free lunch.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> The guarantee stop loss order is just any other stop loss, except the price is guaranteed even in case of massive gaps. However for the privilege, you pay 0.3% prem, and the stop must be set no less than 5% away from the last price.
> So 10bp to buy, 10bp to sell, and 30bp prem = 0.5% total spent
> 
> On apple thats about $2.50 which will eat heavily into the option prem.
> 
> In short, no free lunch.




Thank you skyQuake,

So the risk is 5% (multiplied by whatever the leverage is that's being used) plus 0.5% for the costs involved, minus the premium....?

Wouldn't selling a put spread achieve the same thing but save a hell of a lot in transaction costs, margin and stuffing around?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> Thank you skyQuake,
> 
> So the risk is 5% (multiplied by whatever the leverage is that's being used) plus 0.5% for the costs involved, minus the premium....?
> 
> Wouldn't selling a put spread achieve the same thing but save a hell of a lot in transaction costs, margin and stuffing around?




Apologies, should be 0.3% GSLO risk prem (up to 1% for the more volatile stocks), but for US, the brokerage is 2c/share not 10bp.

Risk can be greater than 5% too. I remember they generally increase the min stop%away distance before big earnings calls. Also if the stock has been volatile recently.

Payoffs sorta similar with one distinction, the GSLO is one touch only like a barrier oppie. So if stock spikes down then back up, you're in for a world of hurt 

Tried fiddling around with it to see if it could work. But 0.3% additional fees end up being quite the killer in the long run. At 10x or 20x leverage with the CFD providers that 0.3% is 3 or 6% of your account! Not to mention the FUNDING costs.
This is even exclusive of oppies brokerage (which is relatively cheap compared to the CFDs)


----------



## Marekzero

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I have been interested in investing in the share market for a while now, although until recently I was not actively researching.

A friend of mine who has taken Daniels courses (both the income plus and mastery) last year seems very pleased with what was provided to her in terms of learning material, which she has studied extensively and the recommendation emails. I'm unaware of her exact financial position although from what I gather she is quite pleased with her results from leveraging her options and a large windfall from forex trading as well.

This of course sparked my interest in the courses hence why I am here, researching. As of course I am quite skeptical and would rather not part with 4k for information readily available through books and the Internet.

She spoke of the rules and such that others have mentioned, although I am yet to chat with her further about her experience.

Something I found strange was that she said that the strategy being implemented can only be executed using IG as it is a new thing being done and they are the only brokers who offer the service and that you need to do the course in order to have access to it. I found that outrageous (although I dont have the knowledge to know if it is true or not) and from reading this thread clearly that is a bit of dribble from Daniel.

Hence, 







skyQuake said:


> Edit: Found it, turns out it was good old IG!




Sounds like there is a bit of negative connotation there, care to elaborate? I'm not having a go at you I just don't know a lot about brokers at the moment, she also mentioned using spectrum live.

Thanks for any and all replies.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yet another first time poster in this thread 

As i have said before, if anyone is still willing to pay 4k after reading all of this thread then they deserve to lose that money imo


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

http://www.spectrumlive.com/brokerage-rates

Absolute RIPOFF!


----------



## Marekzero

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> http://www.spectrumlive.com/brokerage-rates
> 
> Absolute RIPOFF!




Thank you for you constructive reply. How about IG as you mentioned it before?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Marekzero said:


> Thank you for you constructive reply. How about IG as you mentioned it before?




Sorry must have missed that.

Yeah i was simply surprised IG was offering CFDs on US equities. Their rates are ok~, but the GSL prem is very expensive. 
I prefer interactive brokers, but still, IG has its uses.


----------



## barryj1958

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

My wife & I registered to sincerely thank everyone who has spent time contributing to this thread and helping others. We don't want to pass judgement because we haven't experienced the courses first hand but personally, after reading this thread it has really helped us both understand what's being provided before diving in head first..so thank you.
We were contemplating booking for some of the courses offered but this forum has presented some very interesting information. After further research we have realized this is not for us. We also saw that the Spectrum Live address was the exact same as the Trading Pursuits address (Level 7, 299 Sussex Street, SYDNEY  NSW  2000), so it seems that some of the earlier posts were valid. We thank you all for your genuine assistance.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thank you to all of you who have contacted me privately and have shown your support.

I hope you all took note of my bullish stance on AAPL. I made my position very clear before the current bull run.

Just in case I get banned again, you all know how to contact me privately.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Actually over the last 3 months Apple moved the same direction as the S&P 56% of the time.
> 
> In any case a contingent buy on the SPY would have been useless as the magnitude of the Apple move will dwarf the SPY move, plus the SPY will have other factors affecting it far more than apple results. Eg Econ figures, Asian markets.
> If apple had gapped the other way, it would have made the S&P 1 maybe 2pts lower. No hedge either way.
> 
> As for your new trade, its pretty unclear to me what you're doing. So far, I know you've sold 2x Apple $450 calls for $1.75 each. What was the price of apple when you did this? Where was your cfd's stop? Otherwise its too hard to see which trade is which with the P/L from one trade rolling into the next.




Care to comment Alvin?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Thank you to all of you who have contacted me privately and have shown your support.
> 
> I hope you all took note of my bullish stance on AAPL. I made my position very clear before the current bull run.
> 
> Just in case I get banned again, you all know how to contact me privately.




There is an easy way not to get banned at ASF. Simply substantiate any non-transparent claims of profit if asked.


----------



## JLM Financial

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I believe those in the business of eduction, charging fees for education and recommendations, have made their money off you before you even start the course! 

There is lots of free information on the internet which you can learn from for free. You should also be able to get quality service and advice without paying huge lump sums of money.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Correct.

Free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I attended an online session with Charles Cottle some years back.

It was free.

It was also priceless.

Now I'd like to see the Kertcher shill bag out Charles


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Thank you to all of you who have contacted me privately and have shown your support.
> 
> I hope you all took note of my bullish stance on AAPL. I made my position very clear before the current bull run.
> 
> Just in case I get banned again, you all know how to contact me privately.




I wonder why all of these people who contacted you privately to show support haven't done so on this forum.  Silence all the critics by showing your authenticated returns using Kertcher's system.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

For what it's worth Alvin, I (and probably a lot of other people) don't believe that you're somehow working for Daniel or have any vested interest in promoting him. I could be wrong but either way it's irrelevant to me.

I do hope you keep posting your progress for long enough so that we can see the true returns over a long enough period of time. The problem with strategies such as this is that you can get away with making money month after month for a long period of time but that one bad (or string of) bad trades that go horribly wrong (which over a long enough period of time is almost a certainty) can wipe out months, if not years of gains, taking you all the way back to square one and the only people that have profited in the end are the brokers. 

I personally don't blame you for not submitting your broker statements but without proof, you're probably doing Daniels reputation more harm than good on this forum.

(anything less than 3 years worth of proof is probably irrelevant anyway considering the return on risk for this strategy)

Good luck, I do hope it goes well for you.


----------



## Trembling Hand

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> I personally don't blame you for not submitting your broker statements but without proof, you're probably doing Daniels reputation more harm than good on this forum.




Why? This forum has a long standing understanding by ALL participants that if its not substantiated then its clearly BS. Its all very easy to be heroes on the internet. I have put up statements for 100s of trades, even given mods access to some of my accounts to check rather than doubting about doctored statements. 

Its very simple and very powerful way to show who is full of **** or who is the real deal.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> For what it's worth Alvin, I (and probably a lot of other people) don't believe that you're somehow working for Daniel or have any vested interest in promoting him.




There would be very few who share this view. I'll run backwards from Brissy to if he is not connected in some way... or indeed Kertcher himself.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Why? This forum has a long standing understanding by ALL participants that if its not substantiated then its clearly BS. Its all very easy to be heroes on the internet. I have put up statements for 100s of trades, even given mods access to some of my accounts to check rather than doubting about doctored statements.
> 
> Its very simple and very powerful way to show who is full of **** or who is the real deal.




Exactly.  I think it's pretty clear to most people who read this thread who is full of ****.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Why? This forum has a long standing understanding by ALL participants that if its not substantiated then its clearly BS. Its all very easy to be heroes on the internet. I have put up statements for 100s of trades, even given mods access to some of my accounts to check rather than doubting about doctored statements.
> 
> Its very simple and very powerful way to show who is full of **** or who is the real deal.




Actually TH I take that back. I've just gone back to Alvin's original posts which started on page 6 (post 112)...

For whatever reason I honestly thought I read that Alvin was only new to this strategy (by a few months) but I must have got this thread mixed up with another one of a similar theme...I was reading these types of threads when I first came across ASF just for sheer entertainment.

Alvin actually makes some very specific claims of using Daniels strategy for 3 years with returns of over 30%+ per annum.



Alvin Purple said:


> I can now look back on three years of successful trading. There has not been a month where I have made a loss and the average return has been in the vicinity of 30% + *p.a. which I personally find very satisfactory.
> I am happy to recommend Daniel's course. And please, follow the rules. (I am not a licensed financial advisor)





I can now understand the tone that long standing members have set regarding Alvin and his claims and I apolgise for jumping in without paying attention to the details of "Alvins" initial claims.

Members have every right to expect that such claims are backed up by proof.

I will read future threads more carefully before jumping in.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I am fully aware that this may be my last post ever on this forum. I can live with that.

The reason many posters who have contacted me privately and shown their support, but have not come out openly on this forum is that they are afraid of being banned. It is as simple as that.

This thread was supposed to be about Daniel Kertcher; it now has become clearly about me. However, being Alvin Purple I am very used to attract attention - always have, always will.

The reasonable person test clearly states that credibility can only be achieved by nominating the trades before they are placed. I have done exactly that. On many occasions I have stated the entry price, the strike price and the option premium before I placed the trades. Unfortunately, (and I may well get into trouble for saying that) the moderators and administrators of this forum have, for reasons that are not at all clear to me, removed those posts soon after I posted them.

Some of you have seen those posts before they were removed and have told me so privately. You have also seen that all those trades turned out to be profitable, some more than others. All of you would be aware of my recent trades in AAPL, and I am sure that everyone can see just how profitable these turned out.

If some of you also made money on AAPL lately, then I'm a happy chappy.

Bye for now  (maybe forever)

Alvin Purple


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am fully aware that this may be my last post ever on this forum. I can live with that.
> 
> The reason many posters who have contacted me privately and shown their support, but have not come out openly on this forum is that they are afraid of being banned. It is as simple as that.
> 
> This thread was supposed to be about Daniel Kertcher; it now has become clearly about me. However, being Alvin Purple I am very used to attract attention - always have, always will.
> 
> The reasonable person test clearly states that credibility can only be achieved by nominating the trades before they are placed. I have done exactly that. On many occasions I have stated the entry price, the strike price and the option premium before I placed the trades. Unfortunately, (and I may well get into trouble for saying that) the moderators and administrators of this forum have, for reasons that are not at all clear to me, removed those posts soon after I posted them.
> 
> Some of you have seen those posts before they were removed and have told me so privately. You have also seen that all those trades turned out to be profitable, some more than others. All of you would be aware of my recent trades in AAPL, and I am sure that everyone can see just how profitable these turned out.
> 
> If some of you also made money on AAPL lately, then I'm a happy chappy.
> 
> Bye for now  (maybe forever)
> 
> Alvin Purple





When there is an expensive course on offer and one poster claims specific and high returns, it is not unreasonable that other posters request verification of those claims done discreetly via admin. If you don't want to verify your percentage returns, then don't make the claims... simple huh?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am fully aware that this may be my last post ever on this forum. I can live with that.
> 
> The reason many posters who have contacted me privately and shown their support, but have not come out openly on this forum is that they are afraid of being banned. It is as simple as that.
> 
> This thread was supposed to be about Daniel Kertcher; it now has become clearly about me. However, being Alvin Purple I am very used to attract attention - always have, always will.
> 
> The reasonable person test clearly states that credibility can only be achieved by nominating the trades before they are placed. I have done exactly that. On many occasions I have stated the entry price, the strike price and the option premium before I placed the trades. Unfortunately, (and I may well get into trouble for saying that) the moderators and administrators of this forum have, for reasons that are not at all clear to me, removed those posts soon after I posted them.
> 
> Some of you have seen those posts before they were removed and have told me so privately. You have also seen that all those trades turned out to be profitable, some more than others. All of you would be aware of my recent trades in AAPL, and I am sure that everyone can see just how profitable these turned out.
> 
> If some of you also made money on AAPL lately, then I'm a happy chappy.
> 
> Bye for now  (maybe forever)
> 
> Alvin Purple




The one clear trade you provided turned out to be nothing but a GAMBLE. Crank up the leverage and buy apple right before earnings, "DELAY" selling calls till after the announcement.

If I want coinflips I'll go to starcity. At least I won't get taxed on my winnings and there's a cheap delicious lunch buffet


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> The one clear trade you provided turned out to be nothing but a GAMBLE. Crank up the leverage and buy apple right before earnings, "DELAY" selling calls till after the announcement.
> 
> If I want coinflips I'll go to starcity. At least I won't get taxed on my winnings and there's a cheap delicious lunch buffet




I only remember Alvin giving entry details once, not many as he claims...

Happy to be corrected with post numbers, Alvin.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am fully aware that this may be my last post ever on this forum. I can live with that.
> 
> The reason many posters who have contacted me privately and shown their support, but have not come out openly on this forum is that* they are afraid of being banned. It is as simple as that.*
> 
> Alvin Purple




What a load of rubbish and most likely a bald faced lie.  Read some of the heated or spirited exchanges in these forums and you'll soon realize that it take a lot more than supporting the posts of another ASF member to get banned.



Alvin Purple said:


> This thread was supposed to be about Daniel Kertcher; it now has become clearly about me. However, being Alvin Purple I am very used to attract attention - always have, always will.




This thread is/was about Kertcher's product until you his other sock puppets took it off on this tangent.  Interesting how this happened just about the same time ASF members started posting information about Kertcher's dubious past.



Alvin Purple said:


> On many occasions I have stated the entry price, the strike price and the option premium before I placed the trades. Unfortunately, (and I may well get into trouble for saying that) the moderators and administrators of this forum have, for reasons that are not at all clear to me, removed those posts soon after I posted them.




I don't recall any of these many posts being removed perhaps you'd like to tell us about them or the moderators could confirm if this has happened.  Regardless you can silence all the critics easily and immediately by providing proof of your claims, which you should have, but which you refuse to do.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

There are specific parameters we mods are given for either deleting posts or bans. There is no gratuitous moderating at ASF. Joe is very strong on this, everyone must be subject to the same set of rules.

Nobody would be banned for stating a positive opinion of Alvin, but Alvin being a Kertcher sockpuppet, they most certainly would be questioned as to the veracity of any specific claims.

I am not personally aware of any deleted posts on this thread and I certainly have not deleted any.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Funny that. 

You are not aware of any of my posts being removed. That is funny, because many posters have told me privately that they noticed that my posts had been removed. One of them even asked the moderators and administrators on this forum that my post be reinstated so that the trade I had listed could be followed by all. But his request fell on deaf ears.

I will therefore post one more trade that I will be entering tomorrow night (Monday) as son as the market opens.

I'll be buying SNDK at about $55.75 and sell the corresponding number of deep-in-the-money September call options with a strike at $45.00 for which I expect to get a premium of about $11.30. S/L will be at about $44.90.

If the share price and premium are roughly what I expect, I will place the trade and expect a return of about 4 % to 5 %.

Provided this post does not get deleted, we can then all watch the trade develop until expiry.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Funny that.
> 
> You are not aware of any of my posts being removed. That is funny, because many posters have told me privately that they noticed that my posts had been removed. One of them even asked the moderators and administrators on this forum that my post be reinstated so that the trade I had listed could be followed by all. But his request fell on deaf ears.
> 
> I will therefore post one more trade that I will be entering tomorrow night (Monday) as son as the market opens.
> 
> I'll be buying SNDK at about $55.75 and sell the corresponding number of deep-in-the-money September call options with a strike at $45.00 for which I expect to get a premium of about $11.30. S/L will be at about $44.90.
> 
> If the share price and premium are roughly what I expect, I will place the trade and expect a return of about 4 % to 5 %.
> 
> Provided this post does not get deleted, we can then all watch the trade develop until expiry.




Cool, nice and clear.

I assume Sept 21 calls? And no GSLO?

Comes to 55c prem. How are you getting the 4-5% figure?


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I would just like to jump in here and make a few quick points.

One of Alvin's posts was removed from this thread by a moderator because it was posted six days after the trade mentioned in the post was originally entered. This was considered to be a hindsight trade as it obviously would never have been posted at all if the trade had gone against Alvin in those first six days. 

To set the record straight, this post has now been restored and is post #316 in this thread. When a moderator deletes a post it is "soft deleted" which means that it is removed from public view but it is not physically deleted from the thread. All soft deleted posts can be reviewed and restored later if deemed appropriate.

ASF members are *never* banned for expressing an opinion, or showing support for another ASF member. People are banned solely on the basis of behaviour that is in violation of ASF's rules. Spamming, insulting other ASF members, disrupting the forums, constant ramping or deliberately attempting to mislead other ASF members are some reasons that someone may be banned. Links to the Code of Conduct and Posting Guidelines can be found at the bottom of every page for those who would like to review them. 

Live trades are always welcome if someone wishes to demonstrate their method or system. However, they must be called live. This means that both the entry and exit must be posted within 10 minutes of the trade being entered and exited. Calling a trade six days after it was originally entered is not a live trade.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The question is: Can you handle the truth? In my humble opinion "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"
> 
> The simple fact is that what I did last week I have done many times before and the outcome was either a profit or a break-even situation.
> 
> I have also told you exactly what I am doing this week and just to clarify a few points I will give you the exact details. Again, no hindsight required, as this trade will not finish until Saturday morning, August 3, 2013.
> 
> Last Tuesday, July 23 I bought a large number of AAPL CFDs at $418.95. Next day I sold a corresponding number of   call option contracts, Strike $450, premium $1.70, expiry date July 26. On Saturday morning (July 27) AAPL ended up at $440.99, the options expired worthless and I collected all the premium income as profit.




Well done on that trade then. I was actually long after the earnings but I can't prove it either.

I'll take your word for it though:

$440.99-418.95 + 1.70 (prem) - 1.256 (GSL prem) = *$22.48*/share profit. (ignoring brokerage and funding costs)
What would have happened if apple fell by $22.04 instead of rising?
GSL would have kicked in: Max loss is -$20.95 +1.70 (prem) -1.256 (GSL Prem) = *-$20.50*
*$22.48 profit vs $20.50 loss. Nice odds.*
I also note in the 'unlikely' event that Apple fell 5% and triggered the GSL then bounced back above $450, the trade would be very sour.



> Just before market close (5.50 a.m. Saturday, July 27) I sold the same number of call option contracts, Strike $450, premium $1.75, expiry date August 2. The GSL was moved to $418.90 which is slightly above break-even point.




This is a new trade so we'll treat it like one. Long @ 440.99
Sell 450 call @ 1.75



> So, all I have to do is wait until Saturday morning, 6.00 a.m. when the options expire.
> 
> There are only three possible outcomes: AAPL ends up above $450 in which case I will have to sell my CFDs at a huge profit (remember I bought them at $418.95)



450-440.99+1.75 = *$10.76* (profit capped @ 10.76 for Apple >= $450)



> The second scenario is if AAPL ends up below $450 but above $418.95 in which case the options expire worthless (just as they did last week) and I collect all the premium income as profit.




You break even @ 439.24, anything under, u lose money.
eg if it closes @ 419.24, you're down *$20/share*



> The third scenario is if AAPL ends up below $418.90 in which case my CFDs are sold at $418.90, I'll lose 5 cents per share but still collect the call option premium of $1.75 per share and make a profit similar to that in the second scenario.




418.90-440.99+1.75 = *-20.34*

So we have $10.76 potential profit and $20.34 potential loss. for trade no.2.

Compared to your $22.48 profit from trade number 1.

A nice *$2.14* total profit which is EXCLUSIVE of funding costs and brokerage.

I am curious though, with trade No.2 Apple closed @ 462 so you obviously got exercised. How did you deliver?


As I said before, if i want coinflips I go to star city. 

Disclosure: I don't own shares in EGP


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Joe Blow said:


> I would just like to jump in here and make a few quick points.
> 
> 
> ASF members are *never* banned for expressing an opinion, or showing support for another ASF member. People are banned solely on the basis of behaviour that is in violation of ASF's rules. Spamming, *insulting other ASF members*, disrupting the forums, constant ramping or deliberately attempting to mislead other ASF members are some reasons that someone may be banned. Links to the Code of Conduct and Posting Guidelines can be found at the bottom of every page for those who would like to review them.




I posted an innocent comment on this forum  and was immediately labelled a "sock puppet" and referred to as a troll and scammer see #319:
 "Just how many sock puppets does this guy have up his sleeve? Is like half of ASF dormant sock puppets registered by trolls and scammers? "

Little wonder I have been reluctant to contribute further. Joe Blow, is this a form of insulting and if so should the offending member now be banned or at least warned and asked to apologize for this unprovoked act in terms of your advice above.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

At the risk of being off topic, I am certain we're all now only too familiar with the adage: 

"If the sock fits -  wear it!"


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



cynic said:


> At the risk of being off topic, I am certain we're all now only too familiar with the adage:
> 
> "If the sock fits -  wear it!"




PML


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



CanOz said:


> PML




posterior mitral leaflet??


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> posterior mitral leaflet??




NO- he wet his pants.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

*Here is to the crazy ones. The rebels. The trouble- makers. The ones who see things differently. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do. *


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> *Here is to the crazy ones. The rebels. The trouble- makers. The ones who see things differently. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do. *




When caught red handed and out of excuses, default to pseudo-motivational quote.

Are you by any chance a politician?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> When caught red handed and out of excuses, default to pseudo-motivational quote.
> 
> Are you by any chance a politician?




...and in the end, there is mathematics.


----------



## IFocus

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The reason many posters who have contacted me privately and shown their support, but have not come out openly on this forum is that they are afraid of being banned. It is as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Alvin Purple




HHmmmmm...........rubbish, prove up your claims or for ever be treated with contempt and rightly so.

BTW running up a couple of positions wont cut the claim of 3 years at 30%........ever.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



calpereira said:


> I posted an innocent comment on this forum  and was immediately labelled a "sock puppet" and referred to as a troll and scammer see #319:
> "Just how many sock puppets does this guy have up his sleeve? Is like half of ASF dormant sock puppets registered by trolls and scammers? "
> 
> Little wonder I have been reluctant to contribute further. Joe Blow, is this a form of insulting and if so should the offending member now be banned or at least warned and asked to apologize for this unprovoked act in terms of your advice above.




Questioning the motives of others is not insulting them. Given that you have four posts in total and all of them are in this thread, it is not unreasonable for others to have suspicions about your motives.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I have just placed the following trade:

Bought CFDs of SNDK at $54.83 with S/L @ $44.90, sold the corresponding number of September call options @12.90 at a strike price of  $45.00.

Now all I have to do is wait until September 21 and I will either make a profit or break even and according to some of you I might even make a loss, but I don't  think so.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I have just placed the following trade:
> 
> Bought CFDs of SNDK at $54.83 with S/L @ $44.90, sold the corresponding number of September call options @12.90 at a strike price of  $45.00.
> 
> Now all I have to do is wait until September 21 and I will either make a profit or break even and according to some of you I might even make a loss, but I don't  think so.




21st Sept calls?


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Joe Blow said:


> Questioning the motives of others is not insulting them. Given that you have four posts in total and all of them are in this thread, it is not unreasonable for others to have suspicions about your motives.




Notwithstanding, I felt unwelcome by the attack.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yes, Skyquake, September 21st calls, that's what I said. It will be September 20th in America, but it will be September 21st in Australia.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yes, Skyquake, September 21st calls, that's what I said. It will be September 20th in America, but it will be September 21st in Australia.




Well thats funny because SNDK US 09/21/13 C45 were $9.80-$10.05bid/ask with SNDK @$54.82

There were no trades in those specific calls since from Wednesday till now.

A few trades went through @ $9.70 today. No-one did anything @ $12.90 as claimed.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Well thats funny because SNDK US 09/21/13 C45 were $9.80-$10.05bid/ask with SNDK @$54.82
> 
> There were no trades in those specific calls since from Wednesday till now.
> 
> A few trades went through @ $9.70 today. No-one did anything @ $12.90 as claimed.




Yep there you go. ~$3.00 extrinsic on a ~20% away from the money oppie with 30 days till expiry?

I don't thinks so, there is only $1.90 odd extrinsic at the SEP55 ATM.

The REAL achievable trade is pretty skinny, 8c extrinsic BEFORE transaction costs, about 0.15% return on the face value of the trade.

...and what are transaction costs on this trade? What's that GSL going to cost if hit? What will ATM extrinsic be if that stop loss is touched? Probably a lot more than the credit recieved on this trade.

Break even? LOL!

Alvin, don't forget we've got live data, we can check figures, so your gonna have to substantiate your claim or be busted as a BSer.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



calpereira said:


> Notwithstanding, I felt unwelcome by the attack.




I understand, and am sorry that you have been on the receiving end of some of the frustration and skepticism that is being expressed by many here. However, given the direction this thread has taken, and the various unsubstantiated claims that have been made, it is hardly surprising that there is some suspicion about your motives.

After four and a half years at ASF with no posts, you probably picked the wrong thread to wade into with your first few posts.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Joe Blow said:


> I understand, and am sorry that you have been on the receiving end of some of the frustration and skepticism that is being expressed by many here. However, given the direction this thread has taken, and the various unsubstantiated claims that have been made, it is hardly surprising that there is some suspicion about your motives.
> 
> After four and a half years at ASF with no posts, you probably picked the wrong thread to wade into with your first few posts.




Thanks...reassuring words. Just to put on record, I joined ASF 4 years ago at a point in time when I was trading just the big 4 banks on the ASX. I did not post anything at the time however I have since become a Daniel Kertcher fan and have been trading Options straight out of his Monthly reports for the past 2 years. I stumbled upon this thread through a random Google search and thought I'd look in simply because the Title interested me. Nothing Sinister, I am even using my real name.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Yep there you go. ~$3.00 extrinsic on a ~20% away from the money oppie with 30 days till expiry?
> 
> I don't thinks so, there is only $1.90 odd extrinsic at the SEP55 ATM.
> 
> The REAL achievable trade is pretty skinny, 8c extrinsic BEFORE transaction costs, about 0.15% return on the face value of the trade.
> 
> ...and what are transaction costs on this trade? What's that GSL going to cost if hit? What will ATM extrinsic be if that stop loss is touched? Probably a lot more than the credit recieved on this trade.
> 
> Break even? LOL!
> 
> Alvin, don't forget we've got live data, we can check figures, so your gonna have to substantiate your claim or be busted as a BSer.




As detailed way earlier in this thread, this trade is nothing other than a synthetic short $45spt13 put. Via put call parity, one only needs to look to the put to get the extrinsic premium for this trade...~8c

This also begs the question - why the hell would one p1ssfart around with long CFDs, GSLs and short calls with all the extra work, complication, convolution and transaction cost /contest risk as per the Kertcher position, when all one need to do is short the corresponding put... job done. 

...if that is the risk/reward profile you want.

Via synthetics, put/call parity and the Greeks, it is easy to see that Alvins contention that a binary situation of either profit or break-even is the biggest load of mendacious crock imaginable.

Learn your option basics folks and nobody will ever pull the wool over your eyes.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ... a binary situation of either profit or break-even ...




if I knew a way to either profit or break-even, I wouldn't tell anybody!


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> When caught red handed and out of excuses, default to pseudo-motivational quote.
> 
> Are you by any chance a politician?




Nah.  The way Alvin gets slapped down time and time again with logic and mathematics but keeps coming back for more I'm forming a picture of a guy in a full body latex suit whispering his save word ... "Daniel"


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Well thats funny because SNDK US 09/21/13 C45 were $9.80-$10.05bid/ask with SNDK @$54.82
> 
> There were no trades in those specific calls since from Wednesday till now.
> 
> A few trades went through @ $9.70 today. No-one did anything @ $12.90 as claimed.




I wonder if we'll ever see Mr Alvin Purple ever again?


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> I wonder if we'll ever see Mr Alvin Purple ever again?




Show him your gelding tool, he will show you a clean set of heels.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> Show him your gelding tool, he will show you a clean set of heels.




Although a clean set of heels is my specialty, I don't have an emasculator, as I limit myself to procedures distal to the metacarpophalangeal and metatarsophalangeal joint.

However I possess a number of implements that may suffice in an emergency. :


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ... However I possess a number of implements that may suffice in an emergency. :




I tried to find out the name of the tool for gelding!
But google being limited, I found zip.

Now that I have googled emasculator, 
suddenly google knows all about it.

Those implements don't look as scary and medieval as I expected!




I had to add google to my dictionary ... unbelievable!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> I tried to find out the name of the tool for gelding!
> But google being limited, I found zip.
> 
> Now that I have googled emasculator,
> suddenly google knows all about it.
> 
> Those implements don't look as scary and medieval as I expected!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had to add google to my dictionary ... unbelievable!




Actually, it's still a pretty gruesome procedure, not changed much since those medieval days. I don't envy them at all


----------



## Magda

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

When I found this forum more than 3 months ago, I was hoping to find some useful information about options trading.

Unfortunately it seems that you guys and girls are only intersted in fighting amongst yourselves, belittling each other, calling each other names, but have no real interest in discussing trading rationally.

If that continues than I think I may have to find another forum.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Nonsense Magda.

There are dozens of excellent options threads on ASF where many of our members, including myself, have put their heart and soul into sharing. I suggest you search for those and avoid threads regarding seminar spruikers such as Kertcher, McIntyre and his spawn, et al.

There is even such a thread currently active... Option Mentoring. Take a look. There may be some robust discussion and disagreement, but that is intrinsic to the learning process for all of us.

If you don't like negative, please don't add to it. Ask productive questions instead.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> When I found this forum more than 3 months ago, I was hoping to find some useful information about options trading.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems that you guys and girls are only intersted in fighting amongst yourselves, belittling each other, calling each other names, but have no real interest in discussing trading rationally.
> 
> If that continues than I think I may have to find another forum.




I agree with WayneL; there are hundreds of serious posts here, about all manner of things, financial.

I am, however, proud to take the p!ss, whenever scammers appear to fleece our newbies!
Please stay and avail yourself of the positive.










Sorry, Wayne, if I have any redundant commas ...


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> I agree with WayneL; there are hundreds of serious posts here, about all manner of things, financial.
> 
> I am, however, proud to take the p!ss, whenever scammers appear to fleece our newbies!
> Please stay and avail yourself of the positive.
> 
> Sorry, Wayne, if I have any redundant commas ...





Or Magda you could just move on.  Your posts have not contributed anything positive to this topic so far.  They are in stark contrast to the many who have contributed useful information to warm newbies about people like Daniel Kertcher and who have painstakingly shown newbies that people like Alvin Purple are liars.

Don't let the door hit you in the **** on your way out.


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> When I found this forum more than 3 months ago, I was hoping to find some useful information about options trading.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems that you guys and girls are only intersted in fighting amongst yourselves, belittling each other, calling each other names, but have no real interest in discussing trading rationally.
> 
> If that continues than I think I may have to find another forum.




Magda - just type the word "options" into the search box on the upper right hand corner, hit enter and you will find numerous threads there discussing options.


----------



## Magda

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thank you all very much for your freely given advice.

You only mentioned two people from whom I might get advice about trading options. I will therefore contact those two people, Daniel Kertcher and Alvin Purple  and I will let you know how I fared.


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> Thank you all very much for your freely given advice.
> 
> You only mentioned two people from whom I might get advice about trading options. I will therefore contact those two people, Daniel Kertcher and Alvin Purple  and I will let you know how I fared.




Oh dear, another .....


----------



## Magda

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Will anybody mind if I just ignore this socalled moderator?

I really would like to get on with my research.

BTW, I am an emancipated woman and I find the display of a sockpuppet rather childish.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



CanOz said:


> Oh dear, another .....




It's OK, let her spend $6k to learn how to make 0.15% LESS EXPENSES (which is probably >0.15%) less losing trades.... even after Alvin was incontrovertibly proven a fraud by Skyquake just a few posts ago.

Just another shill for sure.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> BTW, I am an emancipated woman and I find the display of a sockpuppet rather childish.




What has being emancipated have to do with CanOz's accurate pictorial assessment of your agenda here?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

CanOz and wayneL,

I really see no point in trying to protect these muppets from losing their money.

It just means more money is in circulation when they burn it on these schemes.

Some of it percolates down to us one-eyed, unable to see what the blind can.

gg


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Speaking of emancipated socks, upon being subjected to my laundry, many have made their respective bids for freedom, thoroughly depleting my sock drawer in the process.

Their forlorn partners had given up all hope of reunion until I happened upon this thread. 

Whilst I understand that the theatrical arts hold greater appeal than the more utilitarian careers of footware upholstery, I do find the financial impost of replenishing my sock drawer wearisome. 

I hope that my liberated socks will soon tire of congregating here and, in so doing, hear my appeal to abandon their ceaseless chanting of "emancipated sock puppets of the world unite!" etc. and return home to their respective sock drawers where they may be reunited once again with their forsaken partners!

If only I'd taken this thread more seriously, I could've saved myself the $99 that I recently paid for that 1,001 paged hardcover tome by McMillan, and instead banked that money towards one of Daniel's $3,990 webinars!


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> Thank you all very much for your freely given advice.
> 
> You only mentioned two people from whom I might get advice about trading options. I will therefore contact those two people, Daniel Kertcher and Alvin Purple  and I will let you know how I fared.




You can't help people who are determined to be moronic.  Magda if you can't type "Options" in the search function on this site then I don't think trading options is for you.  

I also must concur with the sentiment expresses previously here that if having read this thread you still want to sign up for Daniel Kertcher's BS program then you deserve to lose your money.

Readers don't be distracted by shills like Magda.  The truth is that Kertcher's course is a waste of your hard earned money.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> Thank you all very much for your freely given advice.
> 
> You only mentioned two people from whom I might get advice about trading options. I will therefore contact those two people, Daniel Kertcher and Alvin Purple  and I will let you know how I fared.




Please let us know how you go. Also please do spill the secret of Alvin, of how he made money without doing any trades, IE. no volume on the options he mentioned he traded. I still have not mastered the art of premium credit trading without doing any trades/volume yet have money rolling into my account. One day when I save enough to buy Daniel's course I will get it.


----------



## So_Cynical

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I made $17 last Thursday with just 1 options trade...no Daniel's needed.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



So_Cynical said:


> I made $17 last Thursday with just 1 options trade...no Daniel's needed.




You can't hear me laffin', but you can see my shoulders rise and fall!


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The only post worth replying to is that of skyQuake.

Now, skyQuake, I don't know where you are getting your data from (probably, googlefinance, yahoofinance or even Bloomberg), but you, as well as I, and many other people on this forum know, that the figures you see on the "official" lists do not include every trade that goes through. 

As everybody knows, when you go to an actual broker's trading platform, you can occasionally see some mispriced options. One example was back in February when I told you  about the mispriced AAPL 600.0 call option with a premium of $1.885 when AAPL was trading at about $450 with 2 weeks to go to expiry. All the official lists showed the premium at 1 or 2 cents. However, on my broker's platform it clearly showed as $1.885 and there were quite a few contracts there to be sold. As it turned out that lot of options had been sitting there since last year when AAPL was indeed trading around $600 and a premium of $1.885 made sense. Anyway, I was able to sell these options and two weeks later they, of  course, expired worthless and I collected a nice fat profit.

A similar thing happened this time with SNDK options, except that the mispricing was not nearly as severe. skyQuake, I don't dispute the figures you saw in an official list, but you would also have seen that the last trade that went  through was at $13.15. I didn't quite get $13.15, but I got $12.90.

That trade is coming along nicely and should give me a reasonable profit when the options expire on September 21.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The only post worth replying to is that of skyQuake.
> 
> Now, skyQuake, I don't know where you are getting your data from (probably, googlefinance, yahoofinance or even Bloomberg), but you, as well as I, and many other people on this forum know, that the figures you see on the "official" lists do not include every trade that goes through.




That's true for stocks. Dark Pools can hide some things. But thats why there's Open Interest for options. EVERY trade is shown. 



> As everybody knows, when you go to an actual broker's trading platform, you can occasionally see some mispriced options. One example was back in February when I told you  about the mispriced AAPL 600.0 call option with a premium of $1.885 when AAPL was trading at about $450 with 2 weeks to go to expiry. All the official lists showed the premium at 1 or 2 cents. However, on my broker's platform it clearly showed as $1.885 and there were quite a few contracts there to be sold. As it turned out that lot of options had been sitting there since last year when AAPL was indeed trading around $600 and a premium of $1.885 made sense. Anyway, I was able to sell these options and two weeks later they, of  course, expired worthless and I collected a nice fat profit.




I think you're on 20min delayed data...

Surely those HFT firms that spend billions to cut latency and execution speeds have some sort of presence in the US???!



> A similar thing happened this time with SNDK options, except that the mispricing was not nearly as severe. skyQuake, I don't dispute the figures you saw in an official list, but you would also have seen that the last trade that went  through was at $13.15. I didn't quite get $13.15, but I got $12.90.
> 
> That trade is coming along nicely and should give me a reasonable profit when the options expire on September 21.




I love how you try to wriggle out of this one.

The last trade was indeed $13.15... But that was on the 14th Aug, whereas you made your post on the 20th, when the stock was ~$3 lower. Only trade on the 19th was $9.70. Open interest matched those, no mysterious change in open interest as a result of hidden trades.

*So. You claim to have taken a trade that was based on someone leaving in an order. The mispricing wasn't immediately pocketed by a high frequency trading firm. Or considering the timelag, a high latency trading firm. 
*
*The cherry on top is that there is no record of the supposed $12.90 trade anywhere on any exchange. *

The burden of proof is on you. But oh wait you don't believe in broker's statements and whatnot right?


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The only post worth replying to is that of skyQuake.




Ohh Noooo! 

This is ssoooo devastating! 

My ego might never recover from such a crushing blow!

What does SkyQuake have that I do not? 

Does this mean that you don't love me anymore?


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



cynic said:


> Ohh Noooo!
> 
> This is ssoooo devastating!
> 
> My ego might never recover from such a crushing blow!
> 
> What does SkyQuake have that I do not?
> 
> Does this mean that you don't love me anymore?




Yeah.  I don't know what SkyQuake has that I don't have either.  But I know what he has that Alvin (Daniel) doesn't have.  Understanding of and competence in option's trading for one.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



cynic said:


> Ohh Noooo!
> 
> This is ssoooo devastating!
> 
> My ego might never recover from such a crushing blow!
> 
> What does SkyQuake have that I do not?
> 
> Does this mean that you don't love me anymore?




Well we all only had Black Scholes, logic and mathematics to prove Alvin is full of it.

Skyquake actually busted him lying through his teeth, caught him out on actual data.

As far as Alvin's "the dog ate my homework" excuse...... Absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The only post worth replying to is that of skyQuake.
> 
> 
> A similar thing happened this time with SNDK options, except that the mispricing was not nearly as severe. skyQuake, I don't dispute the figures you saw in an official list, but you would also have seen that the last trade that went  through was at $13.15. I didn't quite get $13.15,* but I got $12.90*.
> 
> That trade is coming along nicely and should give me a reasonable profit when the options expire on September 21.




Alvin, if you are using the IG platform, you can take a screenshot of your 19/8/2013 trade entry and post it here, just like I have with my Visa trade. It will be a good starting point. Try it.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> Alvin, if you are using the IG platform, you can take a screenshot of your 19/8/2013 trade entry and post it here, just like I have with my Visa trade. It will be a good starting point. Try it.




I won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I just tried googling, "Daniel Kertcher".

There, on the top choice, was this thread.
The OP's post was partially showing. 

So I got to wondering ... 
who benefits from this thread rising to top choice every time we post!


----------



## alex23

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> I just tried googling, "Daniel Kertcher".
> 
> There, on the top choice, was this thread.
> The OP's post was partially showing.
> 
> So I got to wondering ...
> who benefits from this thread rising to top choice every time we post!




LOL. I was pondering that too myself.. top ranking for 'Daniel Kertcher' (higher than his own Daniel Kertcher dot com), 'Platinum Pursuits' and #2 for 'Trading Pursuits' (granted its not in the thread title).


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well, if you were researching whether to blow 4k on that nonsense.....

Caveat Emptor


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So, for all of you who are keen to see a broker's statement: Here it Is.

Now all I have to do to wait till expiry to see how the trade turns out.


_______________________________________________________________________________

This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:

Date:         19 AUG 2013
Reference:    DIAPTREDFEWSA
Size:         Sell 10.00 contract(s) to open
Market:       SanDisk Corp 4500 CALL 20 SEP 2013
Level:        1290

If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.

_______________________________________________________________________________


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Oops, I almost forgot. You probably also want to see how I bought the CFDs. Here it is:

___________________________________________________________________________________

This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:

Date:         19 AUG 2013
Reference:    DIAAAASDRETWYT
Size:         Buy 1000.0000 shares to open
Market:       SanDisk Corp CFD
Level:        54.83

If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.

____________________________________________________________________________________


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> So, for all of you who are keen to see a broker's statement: Here it Is.
> 
> Now all I have to do to wait till expiry to see how the trade turns out.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date:         19 AUG 2013
> Reference:    DIAPTREDFEWSA
> Size:         Sell 10.00 contract(s) to open
> Market:       SanDisk Corp 4500 CALL 20 SEP 2013
> Level:        1290
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________




Alvin, I recognize that you have an IG account from the above which is part of the email confirmation. May I suggest that you go into "My Account" on your platform and then drill down into "Past Activity". From here select 19/8/2013 in the From and To sections to retrieve the above trade. Then as I have done in an earlier post, do a screen print (Alt+Print Screen) and save the image to a Word document and post it here. This will clear some doubt as to the authenticity of the above as the "free format" nature of the trade details you have shown can be altered. Cheers.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> Alvin, I recognize that you have an IG account from the above which is part of the email confirmation. May I suggest that you go into "My Account" on your platform and then drill down into "Past Activity". From here select 19/8/2013 in the From and To sections to retrieve the above trade. Then as I have done in an earlier post, do a screen print (Alt+Print Screen) and save the image to a Word document and post it here. This will clear some doubt as to the authenticity of the above as the "free format" nature of the trade details you have shown can be altered. Cheers.




Given that IG offer demo accounts, screen dumps are hardly likely to be any more compelling than the hosiery theatre testimonials that already proliferate this thread.

I've got a screen dump from an IG account where I increased the balance by more than 50% in less than 15 minutes. 

Would anyone like to pay me $4k for an online webinar where I reveal the arcane secret of how one can masquerade as an investment genius via the exploitation of cfd demo accounts?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Interesting... also what Alvin has been unable to point out is that what he is purportedly trading are not options at all, they are CFDs on options.

As the commission is $5 per lot per side, this makes the numbers even worse for WTFITM CCS, (AKA WTFOTM synthetic short put). Probably with a wider spread than a real option also.

IG giving away ~$3 extrinsic on that series in a real trade.... not likely.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Interesting... also what Alvin has been unable to point out is that what he is purportedly trading are not options at all, they are CFDs on options.
> 
> As the commission is $5 per lot per side, this makes the numbers even worse for WTFITM CCS, (AKA WTFOTM synthetic short put). Probably with a wider spread than a real option also.
> 
> IG giving away ~$3 extrinsic on that series in a real trade.... not likely.




Yes! 

It's somewhat reminiscent of that age old saying:

"If at first you do not deceive - lie, lie and lie again!"


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

No wayneL, I never said I was an options trader. What I said is that I am selling covered calls. I buy the CFDs and then I sell the calls with a strike price deep in the money. The commission is $5 per lot but you pay it twice only if you sell and buy the option during its lifetime. I only pay the commission once, when I sell the option and then I hold the contract until expiry when no commission is payable. IG do not "give away" anything. They simply act as a conduit between buyer and seller.

Right now all I have to  do is wait 2 weeks to expiry when I collect my profit.

My trading success does not depend on whether anybody approves of my trading style. My profits accumulate irrespective of anybody else's opinion.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> No wayneL, I never said I was an options trader. What I said is that I am selling covered calls. I buy the CFDs and then I sell the calls with a strike price deep in the money. The commission is $5 per lot but you pay it twice only if you sell and buy the option during its lifetime. I only pay the commission once, when I sell the option and then I hold the contract until expiry when no commission is payable.



Semantics



> IG do not "give away" anything. They simply act as a conduit between buyer and seller.




You are dealing with the market maker in all cases with those option CFDs... viz IG markets.... even with DMA. With DMA IG will take a parallel trade in the real market so any real trades will show in the real market course of trades. This did not happen with your fraudulent example.

So I repeat, there is no way IG gave you that trade.



> Right now all I have to  do is wait 2 weeks to expiry when I collect my profit.




As we have ascertained, this trade is illusory and the only profit you will collect will be in your imagination.



> My trading success does not depend on whether anybody approves of my trading style. My profits accumulate irrespective of anybody else's opinion.




Once again, based on the evidence we have at hand, there is a real possibility you aren't actually making any real profits at all.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

"Semantics" - indeed !!!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Let's play a little game shall we?

When this expires and you get to keep your imaginary profit, let's look at the Oct call the same distance OTM and see what extrinsic premium is... just for sh1ts and giggles.

As of friday's close, the bid on the Oct 50, which is closer to the money and more days til expiry than your supposed trade is $8.80 bid.

That's on 58.34 close on the underlying. That's 46c extrinsic.

Probably slightly out because market not open, but we can check live prices later.

Wanna explain the discrepency?

Vols here FYI http://www.ivolatility.com/nchart.j...r*sndk,R*1,period*12,all*4,schema*options_big


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Look, wayneL, old chum, when you have been in the game as long as I have, you have learned not to worry about discrepancies of one sort or another. If they are in your favour - you exploit them, if they are not - leave them alone.

You ought to know that from time to time anomalies occur on the market and those people who see them first can exploit them while others miss out. This is just the way it is. As they say in the classics: "It is what it is."

Get over it and learn to live with it. It ain't gonna change anytime soon.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So you are saying you are making arbitrage profits also Alvin?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

If Alvin was as smart as he thinks he is, and that price was truly available (which we all know wasn't) he would have done the conversion for as many contracts he could get his hands on... Not a pissy DITM CC.

That would be risk free profit rather than the potential for risk of ruin with the geared up cc 

This clown just keeps digging a bigger hole for himself


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ... This clown just keeps digging a bigger hole for himself






> When you are in a hole, stop digging
> It is a good thing to follow the first law of holes; if you are in one, stop digging




 ... when-you-are-in-a-hole ...


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Look, wayneL, old chum, when you have been in the game as long as I have, you have learned not to worry about discrepancies of one sort or another. If they are in your favour - you exploit them, if they are not - leave them alone.
> 
> You ought to know that from time to time anomalies occur on the market and those people who see them first can exploit them while others miss out. This is just the way it is. As they say in the classics: "It is what it is."
> 
> Get over it and learn to live with it. It ain't gonna change anytime soon.






prawn_86 said:


> So you are saying you are making arbitrage profits also Alvin?






wayneL said:


> If Alvin was as smart as he thinks he is, and that price was truly available (which we all know wasn't) he would have done the conversion for as many contracts he could get his hands on... Not a pissy DITM CC.
> 
> That would be risk free profit rather than the potential for risk of ruin with the geared up cc
> 
> This clown just keeps digging a bigger hole for himself




As far as I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this near on impossible for a human being nowadays? Aren't there hundreds, if not thousands, of super fast algorithms gobbling up any available order flow within micro seconds? Aren't Market makers in the many US exchanges, which are quoting options, just super fast computers that would eat up any such "discrepancy" quicker than your eyes could ever see on the screen?

That's more of a question rather than a fact.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin verify your trades on on www.profit.ly. Does not show personal information just verifies that you have done the trades in the past. This is something that can't be faked unlike your idiotic typed out statements.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ftw129 said:


> As far as I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this near on impossible for a human being nowadays? Aren't there hundreds, if not thousands, of super fast algorithms gobbling up any available order flow within micro seconds? Aren't Market makers in the many US exchanges, which are quoting options, just super fast computers that would eat up any such "discrepancy" quicker than your eyes could ever see on the screen?
> 
> That's more of a question rather than a fact.




I would eat my hat if such a discrepancy even existed, never mind a human being fast enough to find and trade it.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Wow can't believe its still being argued.

So apparently you can do Options with IG Markets. You call them up, and they make a price based on the underlying. You can take it or leave it. If you take their prices, IG then hedges it in the underlying. 

Sounds simple enough.

Attached is the best bid/best ask for SNDK US $45 calls.
For about 0.03 sec at the open, it was $7.95 bid, $12.95 ask.
For the rest of the session it was about $10bid, $11ask. Tops.

If you called up IG to get a quote, they would have given you about $9.50-$10.35 depending on when you called. 

So the only possibility is that IG's dealer made a grievous error and none of the filters/controls caught it. He gave you a $12.90 fill. Then a bit later panicked and realized he did something wrong, hit market and got filled at $9.70.

I'd wager that the above didn't occur.
And if it did occur its not exactly an 'edge' you can repeatedly exploit.

View attachment SNDK.xlsx


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> So, for all of you who are keen to see a broker's statement: Here it Is.
> 
> Now all I have to do to wait till expiry to see how the trade turns out.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date:         19 AUG 2013
> Reference:    DIAPTREDFEWSA
> Size:         Sell 10.00 contract(s) to open
> Market:       SanDisk Corp 4500 CALL 20 SEP 2013
> Level:        1290
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________






Alvin Purple said:


> Oops, I almost forgot. You probably also want to see how I bought the CFDs. Here it is:
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date:         19 AUG 2013
> Reference:    DIAAAASDRETWYT
> Size:         Buy 1000.0000 shares to open
> Market:       SanDisk Corp CFD
> Level:        54.83
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________




Funny how they'd give you a fill in Dollars for your Sandisk trade, and Cents for the options trade.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

That's what they do, skyQuake, that's what they do.

I generally don't call IG on the phone, I mostly do all my trades online. When I see the right price, I snap it up. If I miss out, I don't cry over spilt milk. There is always another opportunity just around the corner.

I have no idea why they quote the CFD price in dollars and the option price in cents. It's just the way they do it.

If you really need to know, just ask them.


----------



## ofktrades

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

If, after reading all the pages of this thread, I hadn't discovered that everyone that come on here to actually speak positive of Daniel Kertcher and his programs, are met with an unbelievable ****-storm of accusations, I think I'd be pretty excited about being a first-time poster here (oh, and if you think I'm DK or whatever, read the final paragraph). However, the level of paranoia on here is just staggering. The amusing part is that none of the hardcore haters have actually taken the time to attend a course, but are just spewing bile and "facts" based in their own bitterness of knowing all the technical facts, but - and I'm guessing - still failing to make substantial profits in the markets.

I'm 27 now, from Europe, and was invited to one of DKs seminars for free (as my mate had one to spare), about 3 years ago when I was in Australia to do my studies. With close to $100,000 in student loans at the time (that I still have), and an arts degree that I saw no hopes in making money from after my studies finished (and this is true, not making any money from my degree), I thought that a free ticket for a $3,000+ wealth creation seminar - regardless of how ****ty it might be - was worth my weekend. After having attended the first seminar, I've subsequently also attended his income+ course, as well as the Master course a while later. 

I found that using his income strategies are NOT a surefire way to get rich. You've got a shot to make some profits regardless of your account size, but unless you've got at least $20,000 (which I didn't have in my account to begin with), the income strategies are more likely to eat up most of your profits through the commissions etc, and when you incur the occasional losses on a position, it eats up even more of what little profits you've managed to scrounge up. 

However, after doing his Master's course, I turned my eyes more on the long-term contrarian strategies of looking for severely under/overvalued currencies/commodities/stocks/futures/etc, and either outright opening positions on them, or getting long dated options. This was about 1 year after doing his first course. Prior to changing my focus, my account had gone up from the initial $13,000 to a bit over $20,000 (using a mix of his income strategies, but also some capital gains trade ideas he had mentioned during the seminars themselves), but then I got a bit greedy on a 200x forex trade that I thought was a "sure thing" (this particular trade was one of my own ideas, and had nothing to do with DK), and my account dropped down to about $10k. 

At that point, I transferred my money from IG Markets over to Spectrum Live, and started using more of the approach taught in the Master's seminars. Put shortly, this seminar focuses less on income strategies and more on long term capital gains strategies, primarily through the use of buying long dated options, or entering trades that are trading highly above or below their historical values (combined, of course, with looking at the fundamentals to see if it matches up with the contrarian value appraisal one eventually forms of said security). 

In the 2 years since then, I have - in addition to staying up to date on the regular webinars on TP's website - done my utmost at learning as much as I can, from a variety of sources, on market psychology (mostly from a contrarian point of view, as this is the philosophy I've found agrees most with me), and am very happy with my results. I enter extremely few trades per year. I spend hours and days and weeks researching said trades. I think day trading is the most idiotic concept out there. I don't have a need to trade frequently to feel that "I'm doing something". I utilize very little capital if I'm on a leveraged trade that requires margin, but tend to go a bit bigger on my positions when buying long dated options (mostly on forex pairs). 

I've definitely made some money in the past 2 years. Am I wealthy? No, not yet. Am I going to pay down my $100,000 student loans any time soon, purely with proceeds from trading (which DK introduced me to)? Yes, most likely by the end of 2014 (could do it sooner, but then I wouldn't have much of an account left to keep building wealth). Did DK teach me the basics of how to trade the markets? Yes. Are all of his strategies fail proof? No. Can anyone do this? No, not really. You either need a big enough account to do his income strategies (which require little work) so that commission and the occasional big losses doesn't set you back too much; or a lot of time, hard work and dedication to sharpen the basics he teaches you, and then go out there and "do your own thing". 

Is he a scam? No, he's not. Does he exaggerate the simplicity of taking his teachings and becoming wealthy? Yeah, you could say that. Can you take his teachings, as a previously 100% inexperienced trader (my only "trading" experience prior to DK was the Auction House in World of Warcraft in my late teens), and - combined with some due diligence - seriously change your personal finances around? Ask me in about 2 years, but so far, it seems to be going well for me at least.

PS! Alvin, thanks for reminding me that there's a time for DKs capital gains strategies, and a time for his income strategies. I'm really excited for my current trades to finish, as I'm probably going to be more than comfortably sized to start doing more of the income strategies again, and hopefully find a part-time job rather than my current ****ty full-time job (cash flow for bills, zzz). Really excited to move back to Oz and spend some more time in GC, leisuring away! :-D

Oh, and if someone thinks I'm DK: Vad jag vet sÃ¥ Ã¤r inte DK sÃ¤rskillt grym pÃ¥ svenska. Fast, kanske han Ã¤r, vad vet vel jag. Allt jag vet Ã¤r att jag tycker det Ã¤r ganska roligt att ni Ã¤r sÃ¥ 100% Ã¶vertygade om att DK Ã¤r fake, nÃ¤r det att jag mÃ¶tte honom Ã¤r kanske nÃ¥t av det bÃ¤sta som nÃ¥ngÃ¥ng har hÃ¤ndt min personliga ekonomi. 

So, to summarize: Daniel Kertcher may be a lot of things, but he sure as hell is not a scammer.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So what have you learnt that you couldnt have learnt for free, or for the cost of a few books?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well ofktrades. What you have done is confirmed what us "haters" have been saying all along. Thank you, what say sounds honest.

Will go deeper when I get home, on the phone right now.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> So what have you learnt that you couldnt have learnt for free, or for the cost of a few books?




It really is the concept of placing a "Value"on the information that you purchase which human nature dictates that if you had to pay for it, you would surely value it more. 

In the case of DK's services, the monthly trade ideas posted on the members' Plus reports are invaluable to me. A team of Analysts have whittled down some nearly 6000 stocks (NYSE and NASDAQ) to a handful of 14 option trades with monthly yields of between 4.65% and 9.95% - based on the current Sept 2013 expiry. This service is used by DK devotees to produce a monthly income stream. The fact that you don't need to look for the trades yourself (and get bogged down with a serious case of Analysis Paralysis) - PRICELESS.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ofktrades said:


> Is he a scam? No, he's not. Does he exaggerate the simplicity of taking his teachings and becoming wealthy? Yeah, you could say that. Can you take his teachings, as a previously 100% inexperienced trader (my only "trading" experience prior to DK was the Auction House in World of Warcraft in my late teens), and - combined with some due diligence - seriously change your personal finances around? Ask me in about 2 years, but so far, it seems to be going well for me at least.
> 
> So, to summarize: Daniel Kertcher may be a lot of things, but he sure as hell is not a scammer.




Agree, I have been using DK's trading ideas for 2 years and only in the last 3 months have I seriously knuckled down to creating a reasonable income stream with a properly funded account. I am happy to post my results monthly for 2 reasons. Firstly to prove that there is some value and substance in the information we have paid for. Secondly, to create a challenge for myself to produce an average monthly return of 5% on my account balance and to have NO losing months.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> It really is the concept of placing a "Value"on the information that you purchase which human nature dictates that if you had to pay for it, you would surely value it more.
> 
> In the case of DK's services, the monthly trade ideas posted on the members' Plus reports are invaluable to me. A team of Analysts have whittled down some nearly 6000 stocks (NYSE and NASDAQ) to a handful of 14 option trades with monthly yields of between 4.65% and 9.95% - based on the current Sept 2013 expiry. This service is used by DK devotees to produce a monthly income stream. The fact that you don't need to look for the trades yourself (and get bogged down with a serious case of Analysis Paralysis) - PRICELESS.




BTW. It is easy to scan for high yield (ie high IV) opportunities. You don't need to pay a purported team of analysts.

But don't forget you are being paid to take on risk with high IV options. That steam roller can accelerate more like a muscle car than civil contracting equipment.

Also, my course is only $10k and I guarantee it will contain better info than DK will ever give.

Sorry no hype or BS however. Hurry, limited places available!!!!!!


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Also, my course is only $10k and I guarantee it will contain better info than DK will ever give.
> 
> Sorry no hype or BS however. Hurry, limited places available!!!!!!




Details or website? I'd like to check out the offer. Thanks.


----------



## village idiot

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

At the risk of putting my head above the parapet to be shot at for being an Alvin lover, IG  giving a palpably  erroneous price in favour of the client is not as implausible as is assumed. 

A couple of years ago I noticed that on IG's prices for an XJO option series, the computer model that was driving the option prices didnt have the vertical skew loaded in properly or at all, ie each strike was priced using the same volatility input. This resulted in OTM puts being too cheap compared to real market prices. At some point in the curve, even crossing IG's spread and paying comsec's commissions, there was enough of a difference to arbitrage. 

I started 'buying' the puts with a small order from IG , which  to my surprise got filled, so I kept on going back for more tranches until they woke up and stopped filling me. I sold the equivalent puts on the real market at higher prices to lock in the profit, obv. IG did not make the corresponding buys on the real market, so there would have been no public record of my 'buys' either .   

Obviously HFT do not monitor IG's prices. 

If Alvin was trading with IG its not impossible he spotted a wrong price, got filled at it for a few contracts , and there would be no record of it. 

none of this changes the fact he is generally full of ****e though


----------



## ofktrades

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

All right, I'm a bit late for work, and straight after work, I'll be leaving for overseas until mid next week, so I won't be able to reply to all of it, but I'll get started. I won't check this forum (or my facebook, email, etc) while in London over the weekend/beginning of next week, so please save your "_haha, he just came, spewed some bull****, and left - I knew it, it was DK all along!_" theories. Also, if you feel whatever replies I give now are not long enough, be specific as to what you want me to elaborate on when I get back, and I'll do my best.

Cheers!




prawn_86 said:


> So what have you learnt that you couldnt have learnt for free, or for the cost of a few books?



Well, I for one don't measure the value of what DK and his courses have taught me simply in the "amount" of knowledge that I gained, which - I'm aware - a lot of could have been gained elsewhere (ie. books). 

First of, I was never interested in news, politics, business, finance, markets, etc, prior to going to his courses. I barely knew the name of my own Prime Minister in my home country, and that Obama was the "amazeface awesomesauce" POTUS. I knew that stocks were meant to be bought low and sold high. I knew there was such a thing as derivatives, but had no idea what they were, or how banks ("what, wait - _actual people_, myself included, can also make...") made money from these. After spending -1- weekend with Daniel, I currently have about 20 trading/finance/business specific news & blog sites that I've bookmarked over the years to acquire information, in addition to another 30 general newspapers (locally, from all over Europe, North- and South-America, Australia and Asia) that I like to browse through fairly regularly (no, I don't claim to -read- it all, but I browse through it all to see if I find anything relevant, which I then thoroughly read/watch). 

Seeing as this is partly why I am more and more able to build on what DK taught me, I attribute this interest and attitude change in me to DKs charisma and infectious fascination for the markets, as I experienced it during courses.

Secondly, I gained value in terms of saving (a lot of!) time. Assuming I was interested in trading prior to DK (which I wasn't), I would've had to go through the painstakingly slow process of picking up any random trading book, read through it, probably learn a lot of good and bad stuff, but be unable to judge which were which. I'd then have to read another book. And another. And another. And another. And I'd still not be guaranteed to have covered all the basics on what the various instruments are, TA, FA, financial history - both in terms of actual historical events, and their impact on world markets (viewed in hindsight, obviously), but also how the various instruments came to be implemented, basic risk assessment and management, contrarian theories, the variety of strategies (without getting up in all the technical details that, while probably good to know, have been irrelevant to me so far in terms of being able to trade and make profits), analysing potential trades, monitoring said trades, knowing when to exit, etc, etc. 

I'm not saying these things couldn't have been picked up in books, but it would've taken me a hell of a lot longer to start from scratch (as I did), figured out what information I need to know to actually start trading, fleece away the useless ****, and get going. Not to mention that, even with my current interest in trading and personal experience with it actually being possible to make money in the markets, a lot of the books I've read are just... so... damn(!)... boring, and I end up taking weeks to finish it, or simply putting it away for a different one. 

So there's finding value in time saved to learn enough to at least get started, and still feel like you're not just shooting blind.

Thirdly, as Pure Silk mentioned, regardless of having a massive personal interest in learning "all there is to know" (which is my current mission, and I've barely gotten started, so no point in trying to _catch _me on making inaccurate technical statements, but please do correct me if I do), or simply being a Mom & Pop investor that wants to spend a maximum of 1 hour per month on doing these strategies, having a team of analysts regularly present you with 10-15 trade ideas, 3-6 webinars per month on how the market is doing, being available almost all the time if you have questions - be it about the platforms, the market, trade ideas, etc - and many more perks, is simply much more worth to me than the total cost of the courses alone. Am I able to locate my own trades? Yes. Do I enjoy having a list of alternative trades ready from DK's team all the time? You betcha!

Fourthly, and this one is a big one, and one you can't learn from books. IG Markets for Trading Pursuits clients allows us to open -1- account, and on that -1- account do the following. I'll use a fictional stock for simplicity in prices/premiums, but the same principle applies on live stocks/cfds and their prices.

Let's say I want to do an income trade on XYZ. XYZ is trading at $10. I want to write 10x 1 month CALL options on XYZ, let's say strike price 12. One this -1- account (not 2, as some have indicated they think is required) from IG Markets, I can sell 10x CALL 1 month options and collect my premium. 

If I then want a Covered Call, and not a Naked Call, I can buy the underlying 1000 stocks through CFDs. Still on the same account. Now, if I wanted to buy 1000 stocks of XYZ, at $10, that'd be $10,000. I can't afford that, especially when the premium I just collected was *just*, let's say $250. But, with the CFDs, all I have to put up is $1,000.

So, what's happening now. I've got $10,000 worth of shares through CFDs on my account on XYZ. If they increase in value to $12 per share by expiry, I just made $2,000 in profit - on the CFDs alone. But did I only make the 20% they increased in stock value? No, since I only put down $1,000 for the CFDs to begin with, I made 200% on top of my original capital, leaving me with a total of $3,000 - including my own $1,000 - should I decide to close out the CFDs now. However, since they closed at $12, and the options were for strike price 12, the options expire and I keep my CFDs. I also made the $250 premium from my options contract, which - effectively, as I still keep my CFDs - pushes my entry price on the CFDs down to a lower entry price, aka $9.75 per stock of XYZ. 

So what just happened? I just spent $1,000 to make $2,000 on the value of the CFDs, as well as an additional $250 from the premium of the options. The options expired without being exercised. I still have my CFDs. They can still rise in value. I can repeat the same options trade, selling another 10 contracts, with a higher strike price, for the upcoming month, and collect another premium - which will also push my original entry level / break even of the entire trade equivalent to the total premium collected / 1000 stocks.

You guys might say, "Oh, but what if it went to $13?". Well, I'd be forced to sell at $12. I'd still make $2,000 on top of my initial $1,000 (so, 200% on top of my original money). I'd keep the $250 premium. And whomever bought the CFDs of off me for $12, just pocketed the difference to $13.

If it did stop at $12, I'd simply write an additional 10 contracts on XYZ, strike price 14 (or whatever). Pocket another $250 premium, and now my entrylevel on the CFDs are effectively speaking $9.5. Meaning, the stocks currently at $12, can drop all the way down to $9.5 before I start losing money overall on the trade. If stock goes sideways this month, or even down to $11, or up to $12.5, I still keep the money on my premium, I'm still heavily in profit overall on the trade, and I still keep the CFDs the next month. I can write another set of options, pushing my original breakeven even further down. And further. And further. If I have a GSL in place on the CFDs, at or just above, my breakeven, this can carry on for quite some time.

So, again, no - you don't need to have 2 accounts to do this strategy. No, you can't do it on your broker. You can do it on IG Markets, on the stocks and options that Trading Pursuits are asking IG to open options on. I've heard rumours that other brokers are currently developing similar platforms to do the same thing, but so far that's all I've heard - rumours. It might happen, it might not. I'm sure as hell happy that I got to do these courses, as I realise the potential returns are far higher, for far less risk, than what trading usually tends to be.

However, because of the commissions and fees etc, you do need a sizeable account to begin with, otherwise the profits on the income trades are going to get eaten up. But that's a problem relating to the account size, not the strategy.



wayneL said:


> Well ofktrades. What you have done is confirmed what us "haters" have been saying all along. Thank you, what say sounds honest.




I'm not sure how my posts are simply confirming what the "haters" are saying all along, but if you'd care to clarify, I'll try to reply next week. Please keep in mind that I don't have the theoretical background you do on options, in its more traditional forms/usage areas, so I'd appreciate it if you could speak in layman's terms (where possible). I -am- a typical "Mom & Pop" investor at this point, so my theoretical knowledge of the underlying instruments -are- limited, but I'm working on changing that. 



wayneL said:


> BTW. It is easy to scan for high yield (ie high IV) opportunities. You don't need to pay a purported team of analysts.
> 
> But don't forget you are being paid to take on risk with high IV options. That steam roller can accelerate more like a muscle car than civil contracting equipment.




If, by IV, you're referring to Implied Volatility, you should know that some of the capital gains strategies DK teaches (in his later courses) are focused on looking for stocks/currencies/etc whose IV is at - or close to - all time lows, and then simply buying long dated options on them. 

This is not to say that you aren't correct about taking on high levels of risk when doing the income strategies, but I think you might be overestimating the amount of risk (while some of DK's clients might be underestimating it). It's risky, yeah, but considering how 8-9 out of 10 income trades that DK and his analysts put forth on a monthly basis end up with their clients pocketing a very nice income, I'd say they've been pretty apt at looking for good candidates. 

If I totally misunderstood what you meant by IV, my apologies.


Anyway, I'm off to work. Late as ****! :-( And then off on holidays (not using money from the trading, but soon - very soon)... :-D

Looking forward to replying to whatever replies are there next week. I'll gladly ignore anyone who is being purposely condescending, arrogant, rude or worse. And no, that wouldn't be because I -can't- reply to your questions, it'd be because I -won't- reply to them.

Have a great weekend!

PS! If some of you still think we're full of **** about the possibility of doing the CFDs + options strategy on the same account, in more or less the terms I explained it, here's IG's phone #: 1800 601 799
If you've got enough balls to blatantly call us liars on here, you're more than welcome to call them up and ask whether or not clients of Trading Pursuits / Daniel Kertcher are, after attending his courses, able to do these strategies on their platform.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Well ofktrades. What you have done is confirmed what us "haters" have been saying all along. Thank you, what say sounds honest.
> 
> Will go deeper when I get home, on the phone right now.




As promised:



ofktrades said:


> If, after reading all the pages of this thread, I hadn't discovered that everyone that come on here to actually speak positive of Daniel Kertcher and his programs, are met with an unbelievable ****-storm of accusations, I think I'd be pretty excited about being a first-time poster here (oh, and if you think I'm DK or whatever, read the final paragraph). However, the level of paranoia on here is just staggering. The amusing part is that none of the hardcore haters have actually taken the time to attend a course, but are just spewing bile and "facts" based in their own bitterness of knowing all the technical facts, but - and I'm guessing - still failing to make substantial profits in the markets.




ASF exists for the sharing of ideas and information. It also must justify itself financially for its owner (and believe you me, Joe puts a lot of blood, sweat and *tears*.... and serious *$$$$* into this site), hence the reason for the paid advertising you see here. Most of us understand that and consider it rude that spruikers come on here posing as clients, in order to get free advertising. We get positively irritated when the truth is misrepresented.

As far as "haters" not done the course and failing to make profits... *ROFL*. There are professional and full time retail traders here already living your dream, making a living from trading. Sorry, but Daniel's course is seriously beneath where most of us are at. 



> I'm 27 now, from Europe, and was invited to one of DKs seminars for free (as my mate had one to spare), about 3 years ago when I was in Australia to do my studies. With close to $100,000 in student loans at the time (that I still have), and an arts degree that I saw no hopes in making money from after my studies finished (and this is true, not making any money from my degree), I thought that a free ticket for a $3,000+ wealth creation seminar - regardless of how ****ty it might be - was worth my weekend. After having attended the first seminar, I've subsequently also attended his income+ course, as well as the Master course a while later.



My best advice to you is to look well beyond what DK teaches, seriously.



> I found that using his income strategies are NOT a surefire way to get rich. You've got a shot to make some profits regardless of your account size, but unless you've got at least $20,000 (which I didn't have in my account to begin with), the income strategies are more likely to eat up most of your profits through the commissions etc, and when you incur the occasional losses on a position, it eats up even more of what little profits you've managed to scrounge up.




And this is what we've been saying all along. What you have said here is in direct contradiction of what DK's shills have been saying. 

All trading, I don't care what form it takes, shares, futures, spreads, options short or long gamma, whatever will have wins, losses and be subject to contest risk and must have mathematical positive expectancy *over the long term*. Short gamma, low delta strategies such as ITM CCs have loooong winning streaks, then a small number of massive losses. Stop loss strategies skew the numbers around a bit, but doesn't necessarily substantively change expectancy.

There is no reason these strategies can't have a positive expectancy, but there must be some sort of an edge to achieve that.



> However, after doing his Master's course, I turned my eyes more on the long-term contrarian strategies of looking for severely under/overvalued currencies/commodities/stocks/futures/etc, and either outright opening positions on them, or getting long dated options. This was about 1 year after doing his first course. Prior to changing my focus, my account had gone up from the initial $13,000 to a bit over $20,000 (using a mix of his income strategies, but also some capital gains trade ideas he had mentioned during the seminars themselves), but then I got a bit greedy on a 200x forex trade that I thought was a "sure thing" (this particular trade was one of my own ideas, and had nothing to do with DK), and my account dropped down to about $10k.



. 

As above. Nothing wrong with that approach at all... but do you KNOW your expectancy %?

Do you even know the equation?



> At that point, I transferred my money from IG Markets over to Spectrum Live, and started using more of the approach taught in the Master's seminars. Put shortly, this seminar focuses less on income strategies and more on long term capital gains strategies, primarily through the use of buying long dated options, or entering trades that are trading highly above or below their historical values (combined, of course, with looking at the fundamentals to see if it matches up with the contrarian value appraisal one eventually forms of said security).
> 
> In the 2 years since then, I have - in addition to staying up to date on the regular webinars on TP's website - done my utmost at learning as much as I can, from a variety of sources, on market psychology (mostly from a contrarian point of view, as this is the philosophy I've found agrees most with me), and am very happy with my results. I enter extremely few trades per year. I spend hours and days and weeks researching said trades.




If you have found the type of trading that suits your psychology, good, stick with it, bearing in mind the caveat(s) above.



> I think day trading is the most idiotic concept out there.




It may not be for you, or even for most people, but you are profoundly wrong there.

Allow me to quote Ernie Chan, A quantitative institutional trader http://epchan.blogspot.com.au/2007/02/in-praise-of-day-trading.html

_Which brings me to day-trading. In the popular press, day-trading has been given a bad-name. Everyone seems to think that those people who sit in sordid offices buying and selling stocks every minute and never holding over-night positions are no better than gamblers. And we all know how gamblers end up, right? Let me tell you a little secret: in my years working for hedge funds and prop-trading groups in investment banks, I have seen all kinds of trading strategies. *In 100% of the cases, traders who have achieved spectacularly high Sharpe ratio (like 6 or higher), with minimal drawdown, are day-traders.*_



> I don't have a need to trade frequently to feel that "I'm doing something". I utilize very little capital if I'm on a leveraged trade that requires margin, but tend to go a bit bigger on my positions when buying long dated options (mostly on forex pairs).
> 
> I've definitely made some money in the past 2 years. Am I wealthy? No, not yet. Am I going to pay down my $100,000 student loans any time soon, purely with proceeds from trading (which DK introduced me to)? Yes, most likely by the end of 2014 (could do it sooner, but then I wouldn't have much of an account left to keep building wealth). Did DK teach me the basics of how to trade the markets? Yes. Are all of his strategies fail proof? No. Can anyone do this? No, not really. You either need a big enough account to do his income strategies (which require little work) so that commission and the occasional big losses doesn't set you back too much; or a lot of time, hard work and dedication to sharpen the basics he teaches you, and then go out there and "do your own thing".




Great, you have your eyes open, you do see some of the truth. But forgive me for pointing out that you are still naive. Based on what you have written so far, I am confident a revelation/epiphany will come to you sooner or later and you will be able to see more.



> Is he a scam? No, he's not. Does he exaggerate the simplicity of taking his teachings and becoming wealthy? Yeah, you could say that. Can you take his teachings, as a previously 100% inexperienced trader (my only "trading" experience prior to DK was the Auction House in World of Warcraft in my late teens), and - combined with some due diligence - seriously change your personal finances around? Ask me in about 2 years, but so far, it seems to be going well for me at least.






> So, to summarize: Daniel Kertcher may be a lot of things, but he sure as hell is not a scammer.




I'm not going to land Joe in the legal poop by saying whether I think DK is a scammer or not, *but I will say, and your post here confirms that, is that DK's claims via himself and his shills here are seriously misrepresentative of the results likely to be achieved by the vast majority of seminar attendees.*


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin talks of DITM trades.

ofktrades talks of WOTM trades (and doesn't cover the possibility of the stock going to $8.00)

???????


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



ofktrades said:


> PS! If some of you still think we're full of **** about the possibility of doing the CFDs + options strategy on the same account, in more or less the terms I explained it, here's IG's phone #: 1800 601 799
> If you've got enough balls to blatantly call us liars on here, you're more than welcome to call them up and ask whether or not clients of Trading Pursuits / Daniel Kertcher are, after attending his courses, able to do these strategies on their platform.




When was this ever mentioned? Nobody questioned that IG offers CFDs on both stocks and options. The question is the price achieved.

BTW, most of us us IB, you can trade anything from the one platform, so IG has nothing unique.

On the point of respect, you haven't exactly shown a lot of respect yourself, calling experienced option traders well versed in option pricing theory as "haters". Try showing some, you might get some back.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> Agree, I have been using DK's trading ideas for 2 years and only in the last 3 months have I seriously knuckled down to creating a reasonable income stream with a properly funded account. I am happy to post my results monthly for 2 reasons. Firstly to prove that there is some value and substance in the information we have paid for. Secondly, to create a challenge for myself to produce an average monthly return of 5% on my account balance and to have NO losing months.




Will these results be verified in some way or will they be the same as Alvin Purple's bald faced lies?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

saroq, if you were trying to insult me, you have failed miserably just like countless others. For a start, your command of the English language is about as weak as your understanding of options trading. I doubt that you have the mental capacity to google it, so you had better ask a Fifth-Grader to do it for you and you will find that there is no such  thing as "a bald faced lie".

Furthermore, I have already provided my broker's statement of the trade and since then several posters have come to the conclusion that with "dark pools"  and unreported trades from certain broker's platforms, my trades were definitely possible.

The final proof will come next weekend when the options expire and I will end up either with a profit or a break-even situation.

But seriously, saroq, get some English lessons, for your ignorance of the English language really grates on me.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> Will these results be verified in some way or will they be the same as Alvin Purple's bald faced lies?




How do you suggest I have these results verified, never done anything like this before.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> saroq, if you were trying to insult me, you have failed miserably just like countless others. For a start, your command of the English language is about as weak as your understanding of options trading. I doubt that you have the mental capacity to google it, so you had better ask a Fifth-Grader to do it for you and you will find that there is no such  thing as "a bald faced lie".




Well Alvin, you have shown yourself deficient in research once again. "Bald Faced Lie" is in fact common English idiom, dating back to the mid 19th century, notwithstanding variations thereof.



> Furthermore, I have already provided my broker's statement of the trade and since then several posters have come to the conclusion that with "dark pools"  and unreported trades from certain broker's platforms, my trades were definitely possible.




Laughable!

You haven't provided anything of the sort. Oh my that is hilarious if you think a purported copy and paste is proof... LMAO!

Let's see some real proof. It has been detailed how you can do this without endangering your privacy. Send a copy of your statements to Joe, they won't be shown to anyone. Several posters have done this here.



> The final proof will come next weekend when the options expire and I will end up either with a profit or a break-even situation.




No, as per above there is no proof.

In any case:

1/ Any WTFITM will be profitable some great percentage of the time. One trade is no proof of long term profitability.
2/ If by some miracle, you did achieve that price on the WTFITM call, it is in no way typical or representative of what is achievable in the normal course of trading.
3/ You once again show a complete ignorance of option pricing reality, as we have discussed extensively on this thread, there is most certainly the possibility of loss, even with GSL, as our Scandinavian friend above confirmed.



> But seriously, saroq, get some English lessons, for your ignorance of the English language really grates on me.




It appears it is you who are in requirement of some remedial counselling in both English and Option Theory.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> saroq, if you were trying to insult me, you have failed miserably just like countless others. For a start, your command of the English language is about as weak as your understanding of options trading. I doubt that you have the mental capacity to google it, so you had better ask a Fifth-Grader to do it for you and you will find that there is no such  thing as "a bald faced lie".
> 
> Furthermore, I have already provided my broker's statement of the trade and since then several posters have come to the conclusion that with "dark pools"  and unreported trades from certain broker's platforms, my trades were definitely possible.
> 
> The final proof will come next weekend when the options expire and I will end up either with a profit or a break-even situation.
> 
> But seriously, saroq, get some English lessons, for your ignorance of the English language really grates on me.



I hit a nerve.  I'd correct you and point out your mental deficiencies and that you have been shown to be a "bald faced liar" on this forum but others have done that for me.  However, even without their assistance you are doing a sterling job of making a fool of yourself.  Do you need to "Google" that phrase too?


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> How do you suggest I have these results verified, never done anything like this before.




A previous suggestions: http://profit.ly/  I know of the site but don't know if there is a cost involved.

Another method:  Read wayneL's post, he has suggested to alvin purple a number of times how he could provide real proof of his trades.  Unsurprisingly Alvin has never availed himself of that method or of any method for verifying his trades.  

*Note to Alvin:*  Are you able to follow what I'm saying Alvin or are the words I'm using too big for you?


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> A previous suggestions: http://profit.ly/  I know of the site but don't know if there is a cost involved.
> 
> Another method:  Read wayneL's post, he has suggested to alvin purple a number of times how he could provide real proof of his trades.  Unsurprisingly Alvin has never availed himself of that method or of any method for verifying his trades.
> 
> *Note to Alvin:*  Are you able to follow what I'm saying Alvin or are the words I'm using too big for you?




OK, I'll do it through Joe as wayneL suggests.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> OK, I'll do it through Joe as wayneL suggests.



Another month comes to an end today and a 3rd successive profitable month @ 4.78%. I intend to post my results starting with this financial year as there has been a consistency with capital employed and the $ values will have meaning (along with supporting statements sent separately to Joe of course). However, as someone has mentioned previously, 3 stellar months does not make a summer. I do not want to risk being on the receiving end of any negative comment and have decided to hold off until at least 6 months results are to hand OR there is a losing month. I am uncertain whether I will be taking the trading ideas for October expiry (16 trades so far suggested) as I am embarking tonight on a 3 week trip to Japan and Hong Kong. Not sure if I want to have any live trades whilst away on holidays.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> Another month comes to an end today and a 3rd successive profitable month @ 4.78%. I intend to post my results starting with this financial year as there has been a consistency with capital employed and the $ values will have meaning (along with supporting statements sent separately to Joe of course). However, as someone has mentioned previously, 3 stellar months does not make a summer. I do not want to risk being on the receiving end of any negative comment and have decided to hold off until at least 6 months results are to hand OR there is a losing month. I am uncertain whether I will be taking the trading ideas for October expiry (16 trades so far suggested) as I am embarking tonight on a 3 week trip to Japan and Hong Kong. Not sure if I want to have any live trades whilst away on holidays.




Why not simply provide them on a month by month basis? Rather than simply pulling a pie in the sky figure out about this months profit...


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> Another month comes to an end today and a 3rd successive profitable month @ 4.78%. I intend to post my results starting with this financial year as there has been a consistency with capital employed and the $ values will have meaning (along with supporting statements sent separately to Joe of course). However, as someone has mentioned previously, 3 stellar months does not make a summer. I do not want to risk being on the receiving end of any negative comment and have decided to hold off until at least 6 months results are to hand OR there is a losing month. I am uncertain whether I will be taking the trading ideas for October expiry (16 trades so far suggested) as I am embarking tonight on a 3 week trip to Japan and Hong Kong. Not sure if I want to have any live trades whilst away on holidays.




Don't view this as negative... but 4.78% of what. Is that a single trade, several trades? Is that of total capital, initial margin, or of face value of the underlier.

Where is the call on the trade?


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Don't view this as negative... but 4.78% of what. Is that a single trade, several trades? Is that of total capital, initial margin, or of face value of the underlier.
> 
> Where is the call on the trade?



WayneL, it is 4.78% of my entire account balance held by IG. I usually allocate 90% as margin and the result was achieved with 14 trades I believe. Can't check as I am at the airport. I would always represent gains as a percentage of all funds held by the broker as one must in my view, take into consideration the opportunity cost of any unused funds.


----------



## hhse

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Q&A:
Does the course motivate? - yes
Does the course provide concepts/ideas? - yes
Does the course provide networking opportunities? -yes

That is all you should be using the course for... if you are expecting to come out of the course equipped with some 'magical formula' you are deluded. I'm sure his intentions are good, but I don't feel that his course is up to scratch, but hey maybe that is a bit harsh for a 2-3 day course especially for beginners?

The course sells a 'trading system', explains covered calls combined with CFDs and explains naked puts. Let's look at these in detail

Trading system: candlesticks & bollinger bands & patterns with CFD's - wouldn't be different to any other back tested trading system. But here is the thing, the frequency of occurrence wouldn't be near enough to give you a regular income. The claim might be - hey if you put '10K', just '10K' in that trade, you would have made so & so. That is stupid and only shows how wreckless you would be with 'bankroll' management. If you are using a leveraged derivative with a trading system (playing with probabilities) it should only be with small trades so that the probability can work in your favour. Which brings me to my original argument of 'frequency of occurence' and there not being enough to generate regular income.

CFDs+Covered Calls & Naked Puts: Perfect. Yes, viable strategy that can generate regular income and I applaud him for teaching that. Any investment seminars that do not teach that are not worth their grain of salt. But hey here is the problem, it's not a viable strategy where volatility is low. Does he mention this? I do not believe so. But hey he is teaching the right thing! However, I just feel that a lot of people would come out of his course and start entering into poor risk/reward scenarios OR feeling that they couldn't find good premium and not being able to figure out why... well that's because 'volatility' is low! And selling premium tends to be a strategy for high volatile environments. You should be using other strategies.

Does the course do what it's suppose to do? Yes, it motivates. Yes, it provides concepts & ideas. Yes, it provides networking opportunities with like minded people? But, does it educate... kind of, but there is a lot of information that is missing, that would allow a new trader to quickly transition the learned concepts into "best/safe" practice. But maybe that is a bit too harsh for a 3 day course with complete beginners attending.

Would I attend? There are better ways to learn if you are motivated enough and you can save yourself the additional few grands that you would have spent on the course. Having said that, even if you do go, and fail to continue to do research, you are setting yourself up for failure. Do you need a motivational boost and find trading buddies and are the type of person that will be motivated once you attend a course and find a friend? Sure... I can see some value to the course.

So yeah these are strictly my opinions only and take it with a grain of salt if you must. Do your research  Flame me if you must, but I feel that my comments were fair if you see where I am getting at.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Would I attend?

WTF is that?

A critique from someone who hasn't even attended the course. You are in the right place here. Most critics here haven't attended the course either.

NEXT!

As you will all have seen by now, my SNDK trade turned out to be profitable after all. Must be another case of sheer dumb luck.

The figure of 4.78 %  on total capital employed for the month, mentioned by puresilk, is achievable if one employs nearly all of one's capital. I am much more conservative than that and usually employ less than 50 % and that is why my returns are lower, generally about 2.5 % per month.

The point is that I have had average returns of 2.5 % per month for the last three and a half years, but after reading all the comments on this forum I have come to the conclusion that it must all be due to dumb luck.

I have therefore decided to stop relying on dumb luck alone and have taken your advice to buy a few good books on options trading. It may take me quite a while to get through all this reading material (I am a slow reader) and will therefore not be posting for a while.

However, I fully intend to come back here when I have learnt all there is to learn about options trading from books. It may even improve my returns to a higher figure than 2.5 % per month and if that is indeed the case you will hear all about it.

Bye for now,

your truly,

Alvin Purple


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I have therefore decided to stop relying on dumb luck alone and have taken your advice to buy a few good books on options trading. It may take me quite a while to get through all this reading material (I am a slow reader) and will therefore not be posting for a while.
> 
> However, I fully intend to come back here when I have learnt all there is to learn about options trading from books. It may even improve my returns to a higher figure than 2.5 % per month and if that is indeed the case you will hear all about it.
> 
> Bye for now,
> 
> your truly,
> 
> Alvin Purple




Make sure you get the books with BIG PRINT and lots of pictures Alvin, you'll need those to make up for your lack of ability in the English language.


----------



## hhse

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Would I attend?
> 
> WTF is that?
> 
> A critique from someone who hasn't even attended the course. You are in the right place here. Most critics here haven't attended the course either.




I have attended and I was speaking in hindsight. I won the ticket, but I know people pay thousands for it.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Would I attend?
> 
> WTF is that?
> 
> A critique from someone who hasn't even attended the course. You are in the right place here. *Most critics here haven't attended the course either.*




Because most critics don't need to attend Kertcher's course, we actually know option theory and are real traders. We know how each scenario works and all possibilities of how they might play out.

Kertcher's course is well beneath us. In fact, it will be well beneath anyone who has read two books - McMillan's "Options as a Strategic Investment" and "Natenberg's "Options Volatility and pricing". (And if you are serious about learning more, these two books are the industry standard).

There is a further book I strongly suggest, but I haven't finished writing it yet. :



> As you will all have seen by now, my SNDK trade turned out to be profitable after all. Must be another case of sheer dumb luck.




And as I have repeated_ ad nauseum_ here, these are high probability, low return trades. Where the rubber meets the road is in the minority of occasions when things don't go so well.



> The figure of 4.78 %  on total capital employed for the month, mentioned by puresilk, is achievable if one employs nearly all of one's capital. I am much more conservative than that and usually employ less than 50 % and that is why my returns are lower, generally about 2.5 % per month.
> 
> The point is that I have had average returns of 2.5 % per month for the last three and a half years, but after reading all the comments on this forum I have come to the conclusion that it must all be due to dumb luck.




I have some comments on this... after dinner.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Regarding placement of short strikes, specifically in this case SNDK:

Monthly probability outcomes.... FYI


----------



## Joeey

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

my question as always to these strategies/gurus, is that if you are so good and confident with your strategy, why don't you become a fund manager and outperform the market?

If you can do this, and consistently outperform you will then make more than you ever will selling seats to your seminars.

Heck, i will happily pay over 2% fee if you get the returns you say you can over a period of time. 

Just a thought.


----------



## muzzamcc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Just finished reading the whole thread after a relative of mine mentioned this guy after seeing one of his free seminar into's. Anyone who has any experience in the trading world would know not to touch this guy's paid seminars after a brief read of this thread. Some of the posts by Alvin and like minded shills are hilarious. 

I can however understand how people get sucked into his courses if they don't have much experience with trading or financial products. In short, stay away from these types of seminar spruikers. I'm just glad I was able to save a relative of mine the several thousand dollar seminar fee. Better Kertcher doesn't get it i reckon


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Dear muzzamcc,

I am glad you find my posts hilarious. It's a pity I can't say the same about yours - they are sad - just so sad.

Five weeks have passed and there has not been one post to this thread. That fact alone tells a whole story, doesn't it?

But I digress.

First of all I should thank all of you for recommending several books about options trading that I should read. I have done exactly that and I must say it has opened my eyes. While I was reasonably successful with the knowledge I gained from Daniel Kertcher, after reading all those books I have a much better understanding of, for instance, the Greeks and all the other stuff you already know about. Suffice to say that my trading results have improved measurably. I can look forward to a successful conclusion of the current year and will be able to enter 2014 with renewed vigour.

I still say that the $3200 I spent all these years ago was the best investment I have ever made, because it has been returned to me more then one hundred fold (before you guys make another mathematical blunder as you did last time, this does not mean I made $3.2 million, but I made more than $320,000).

For those of you who keep saying that Daniel should run a Fund for people who don't want to trade themselves if his recommendations are as good as he says. Well, I have news for you. Daniel has done exactly that. He started that Fund six months ago, has received subscriptions of more than $22 million and his returns in those six months are roughly double what you can get from other Mutual Funds in Australia. No, he doesn't show his broker statements but his results are audited by ASIC which is good enough for me. I know that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but I'm afraid that ASIC is the best this government can offer to protect its citizens. I am fully aware that ASIC is underfunded but they are doing the best they can with limited resources. They do, however, audit all Funds that hold an Australian Financial Services Licence (AFSL), so at least we are comparing apples with apples.

So, muzzamcc, do you really think that you have done your relatives a favour by talking them out of spending $5000 on one of Daniel's courses?

Do you really think Daniel needs another $5000?

I've got news for you. Recently Daniel ran a four-day course at a very posh hotel in Sydney for which he charged $5000 per person. He attracted 350 paying customers. So, let's do some quick maths. Even though it may have cost him up to $500,000 to stage the event (room hire, excellent catering, morning tea, superb lunches and afternoon tea, staff costs etc.), it will have left him with a net profit well in excess of a million dollars, not bad for four days work.

So, if I get just one reply I may have saved this thread from dying a premature death. If I get no reply, then this thread has probably outlived its usefulness.


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> .  I've got news for you. Recently Daniel ran a four-day course at a very posh hotel in Sydney for which he charged $5000 per person. He attracted 350 paying customers. So, let's do some quick maths. Even though it may have cost him up to $500,000 to stage the event (room hire, excellent catering, morning tea, superb lunches and afternoon tea, staff costs etc.), it will have left him with a net profit well in excess of a million dollars, not bad for four days work.




Sums it well, I wouldn't need any more evidence than that to drive me away. It's all about the marketing isn't it!

Well done Alvin, that's a great example.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



CanOz said:


> Sums it well, I wouldn't need any more evidence than that to drive me away. It's all about the marketing isn't it!
> 
> Well done Alvin, that's a great example.




Exactly Canoz

And that is what we can learn from Kertcher, nothing worthwhile about options, but lots about marketing.



*Alvin*, if you were really paying attention when you were reading, you would have realized by now that most of your posts on this thread are nothing more than camel dung.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

wayneL, it may be camel dung to you, but to me it's pure cash, and lots of it.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> wayneL, it may be camel dung to you, but to me it's pure cash, and lots of it.




So you still can't grasp the that your claims earlier in the thread cannot be correct?


----------



## elbee

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> ....
> For those of you who keep saying that Daniel should run a Fund for people who don't want to trade themselves if his recommendations are as good as he says. Well, I have news for you. Daniel has done exactly that. He started that Fund six months ago, has received subscriptions of more than $22 million and his returns in those six months are roughly double what you can get from other Mutual Funds in Australia. No, he doesn't show his broker statements but his results are audited by ASIC which is good enough for me. I know that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but I'm afraid that ASIC is the best this government can offer to protect its citizens. I am fully aware that ASIC is underfunded but they are doing the best they can with limited resources. They do, however, audit all Funds that hold an Australian Financial Services Licence (AFSL), so at least we are comparing apples with apples.
> ....




ASIC does not *"audit "* funds that hold an Australian Financial Services Licence, or any other entity for that matter. The fact that an entity is registered with ASIC does not mean that entity is endorsed by ASIC.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Five weeks have passed and there has not been one post to this thread. That fact alone tells a whole story, doesn't it?




It does tell a story indeed.  Daniel Kertcher's marketing department has been away reading books about options trading and there has been no need to correct their mathematical calculations, expose their bald faced lies or warn newbies away from this charlatan.



Alvin Purple said:


> But I digress.
> 
> First of all I should thank all of you for recommending several books about options trading that I should read. I have done exactly that and I must say it has opened my eyes. While I was reasonably successful with the knowledge I gained from Daniel Kertcher, after reading all those books I have a much better understanding of, for instance, the Greeks and all the other stuff you already know about. Suffice to say that my trading results have improved measurably. I can look forward to a successful conclusion of the current year and will be able to enter 2014 with renewed vigour.




Well done Alvin.  You've proved the point raised here several times.  You don't need to spend $5,000.  Just buy a few books for about $100 and you'll get a lot more than Kertcher's course will teach you.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> So you still can't grasp the that your claims earlier in the thread cannot be correct?




What is there to grasp? 

I said that I was making money with the knowledge I gained from Daniel's course, which cost me $3,200 and has been returned to me more than one hundred fold. And now that I have read all the books you recommended and gained a better understanding of options trading, I make even more money.

WTF is wrong with that?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> It does tell a story indeed.  Daniel Kertcher's marketing department has been away reading books about options trading and there has been no need to correct their mathematical calculations, expose their bald faced lies or warn newbies away from this charlatan.
> 
> 
> 
> Well done Alvin.  You've proved the point raised here several times.  You don't need to spend $5,000.  Just buy a few books for about $100 and you'll get a lot more than Kertcher's course will teach you.




Four years ago I didn't even know what options were. It happened to be Daniel Kertcher (but it could have been any of the other stock market educators) who got me interested in options trading. I doubt very much that simply reading a few books would have put me on the path to successful trading. The main benefit of the three day live course is that you can ask questions along the way. You cannot ask questions from a book. As I said, the course cost of $3,200 has been returned to me more than one hundred fold and the $150 cost of the books was also a good investment as it has increased my profitability.

Reading only the books without the guidance of a live mentor would not nearly have been as  successful.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I said that I was making money with the knowledge I gained from Daniel's course, which cost me $3,200 and has been returned to me more than one hundred fold.




Care to actually prove this statement? Any mod will be more than happy to verify your broker statements


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> Care to actually prove this statement? Any mod will be more than happy to verify your broker statements




Ah ... and there's the rub Alvin.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/There's+the+rub

I've supplied the link to the meaning of the idiom for you Alvin.  I know that they can be a challenge for you to understand.  Should I have included a definition of "idiom" for you too?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What is there to grasp?
> 
> I said that I was making money with the knowledge I gained from Daniel's course, which cost me $3,200 and has been returned to me more than one hundred fold. And now that I have read all the books you recommended and gained a better understanding of options trading, I make even more money.
> 
> WTF is wrong with that?




You stated categorically that the only two results with Kertchers DITMCC was profit or break even.

If you have read the books suggested you should now realize this is absurd.... a totally ridiculous claim.


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Four years ago I didn't even know what options were. It happened to be Daniel Kertcher (but it could have been any of the other stock market educators) who got me interested in options trading. I doubt very much that simply reading a few books would have put me on the path to successful trading. The main benefit of the three day live course is that you can ask questions along the way. You cannot ask questions from a book. As I said, the course cost of $3,200 has been returned to me more than one hundred fold and the $150 cost of the books was also a good investment as it has increased my profitability.
> 
> Reading only the books without the guidance of a live mentor would not nearly have been as  successful.




Hmmmm...How many mentors do you need Al? I seem to remember you also spruked the Louise Bedford $15,000.00 course.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

This thread has achieved what it set out to, a free advertising medium for Daniel Kertcher.

The proponents and antagonists will never illuminate those on the sidelines.

My worry is that it is appearing high on a google search for Kertcher and may suck more people in to his method.

I reckon it should be closed down.

Forthwith.

gg


----------



## wombat40

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Your a party pooper Garp!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

GG these spuikers will always be able to reel in gullible fools.... always.

Anyone with half a brain will stay well away after reading this thread.

Starfish on the beach bud


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



nulla nulla said:


> Hmmmm...How many mentors do you need Al? I seem to remember you also spruked the Louise Bedford $15,000.00 course.




nulla nulla (btw what an apt name), would you care to show me on this forum or anywhere else where I *spruiked* any of Louise Bedford's courses?  Get your facts straight before you make these wild accusations.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> Ah ... and there's the rub Alvin.
> 
> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/There's+the+rub
> 
> I've supplied the link to the meaning of the idiom for you Alvin.  I know that they can be a challenge for you to understand.  Should I have included a definition of "idiom" for you too?




Tell me something I didn't know.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> Care to actually prove this statement? Any mod will be more than happy to verify your broker statements




Prawn_86, care to check my earlier posts? 

I have shown some of my broker's statements on this forum, only to be told that nobody believed them.

I have gone through some of my trades from start to finish and when they turned out to be successful I was told this was a "one-off fluke".

So, I have been there, done that.

You see, whether I am believed or not does not make the slightest difference to me.

My family and friends whom I have been able to assist financially, the charities I am now able to support and my bank manager never ask to see my broker's  statements. But they all believe without question that writing covered calls can be a very profitable activity. 

How does this show up in practice?

Years ago when I needed to buy something, I would *always* buy on price. In an expensive restaurant I would always check he price on the menu first and then order the cheapest dish.

Today, when I need to buy something, I simply buy it and look at the price only after I have decided to buy.

In a restaurant I read the menu from the left, then order what we want, and look at the price last.

That is the difference successful trading has made to my life.


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> nulla nulla (btw what an apt name), would you care to show me on this forum or anywhere else where I *spruiked* any of Louise Bedford's courses?  Get your facts straight before you make these wild accusations.




I stand corrected. You didn't sprook her course but in fact used the Louise Bedford thread to sprook your $3,000 investment in a course where your mentor provides their trades in advance, presumably in the Daniel Kertcher course, which was never verified.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Prawn_86, care to check my earlier posts?
> 
> I have shown some of my broker's statements on this forum, only to be told that nobody believed them.
> 
> I have gone through some of my trades from start to finish and when they turned out to be successful I was told this was a "one-off fluke".
> 
> So, I have been there, done that.




We have covered that in depth already and detailed your lack of credibility on this point.

Now would you care to deal with the point I have raised, re profit or breakeven. If you had learned anything at all from the books I would expect a complete retraction and apology, to salvage any sort of credibility at all.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

OK in the absence of Alvin 'fessing up to his earlier absurdity, let's look logically at this, even without even mentioning a Greek... but maybe just a little put-call parity

We know that the trades involved are WTFITM covered calls, (using CFDs and option CFDs, which is inconsequential apart from some differences in contest risk).

We also know, via the put-call parity equation that this is synthetically equivalent to the corresponding WTFOTM naked short put.

Alvin claims that such trades, via GSL at the short call strike will either profit or break even :nuts: Let's say the stock is at 60.50 with the call written at $50.

This is equivalent to saying that a short $50 naked put can never lose money if you have a stop loss (guaranteed or not) at the strike. This is face-palmingly ludicrous.

Ok Let's think about this. What if we tighten up the WTFITM strike a notch to $51. 

How about $52?

$53?

$54, $55, $56, $57, $58, $59?

How about a $60 strike?

At what point, in Alvins's parallel universe, is a loss possible?


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> ...
> At what point, in Alvins's parallel universe, is a loss possible?




I'd love some feedback from anyone whom traded that strategy on the US market during the month of May 2010. 

Unfortunately I may need the assistance of a ouija board in order to do so, as those traders are unlikely to still be with us.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Tell me something I didn't know.




Hmmm tell Alvin something he doesn't know hmmm ... You don't know how to take screen shot of your trading statements to verify your claims.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



cynic said:


> Unfortunately I may need the assistance of a ouija board in order to do so, as those traders are unlikely to still be with us.




 'zackley


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> For those of you who keep saying that Daniel should run a Fund for people who don't want to trade themselves if his recommendations are as good as he says. Well, I have news for you. Daniel has done exactly that. He started that Fund six months ago, has received subscriptions of more than $22 million and his returns in those six months are roughly double what you can get from other Mutual Funds in Australia. No, he doesn't show his broker statements but his results are audited by ASIC which is good enough for me. I know that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but I'm afraid that ASIC is the best this government can offer to protect its citizens. I am fully aware that ASIC is underfunded but they are doing the best they can with limited resources. They do, however, audit all Funds that hold an Australian Financial Services Licence (AFSL), so at least we are comparing apples with apples.




Whats the name of that fund and where are its results?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Whats the name of that fund and where are its results?







> For those of you who keep saying that Daniel should run a Fund for people who don't want to trade themselves if his recommendations are as good as he says. Well, I have news for you. Daniel has done exactly that. He started that Fund six months ago, has received subscriptions of more than $22 million and his returns in those six months are roughly double what you can get from other Mutual Funds in Australia. No, he doesn't show his broker statements but his results are audited by ASIC which is good enough for me. I know that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but I'm afraid that ASIC is the best this government can offer to protect its citizens. I am fully aware that ASIC is underfunded but they are doing the best they can with limited resources. They do, however, audit all Funds that hold an Australian Financial Services Licence (AFSL), so at least we are comparing apples with apples.




Jayzoo, If ASIC are monitoring it I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

gg


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

OK, wayneL, as it says in Dr. Faustus: "Gray, my friend, is all theory."

I really can't be bothered with theoretical examples where you don't even give the premium.

I much rather stick to practical examples like this one. Only this morning I put on a trade which shows the benefit of delayed options writing.

This morning, just after the market opened I bought 10,000 CFDs of TSLA at $165.25. This was based on intelligence received from my American friends that TSLA would come out with an excellent earnings report tomorrow. Later on this morning, just before the market closed at 8.00 a.m TSLA had risen to $175.00 and I sold 100 call option contacts, strike price $180.00, premium $8.00, expiry Nov 8, 2013.

I set the S/L at $172.00.

Now this is a real, live example and the trade won't conclude (unless I get stopped out) until market close on November 8, which will be 8.00 a.m. Saturday, November 9 here in Australia.

The figures I mentioned can be checked with any data service so the trade is fully transparent.

I am very happy with this trade, but I don't know how much I will make until Saturday, but it won't be a long wait. I think I am safe in saying that I won't lose any money.

However you guys will probably find a way and a circumstance where I can still lose money. But that's OK. It doesn't worry me one bit, because I know that I cannot lose money on this trade.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Whats the name of that fund and where are its results?




Hi skyQuake,

the name of the fund is Spectrum Live Capital Management. In the first three months (for which complete figures are available) the unit price increased by 4.7 % which equates to an annual rate of 18.8 % p.a.


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> In the first three months (for which complete figures are available) the unit price increased by 4.7 % which equates to an annual rate of 18.8 % p.a.




nah nah nah nah No...you can't extrapolate a quarterly return. You will have draw-down months. That's like saying my managed futures account had one month where it returned 12%...so that's 144% per year.

You don't have a track record until you have one! Even one year is not enough to gauge performance. The best manager i know can use two years for profitability, most are three years minimum.


----------



## kid hustlr

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, wayneL, as it says in Dr. Faustus: "Gray, my friend, is all theory."
> 
> I really can't be bothered with theoretical examples where you don't even give the premium.
> 
> I much rather stick to practical examples like this one. Only this morning I put on a trade which shows the benefit of delayed options writing.
> 
> This morning, just after the market opened I bought 10,000 CFDs of TSLA at $165.25. *This was based on intelligence received from my American friends that TSLA would come out with an excellent earnings report tomorrow.* Later on this morning, just before the market closed at 8.00 a.m TSLA had risen to $175.00 and I sold 100 call option contacts, strike price $180.00, premium $8.00, expiry Nov 8, 2013.
> 
> I set the S/L at $172.00.
> 
> Now this is a real, live example and the trade won't conclude (unless I get stopped out) until market close on November 8, which will be 8.00 a.m. Saturday, November 9 here in Australia.
> 
> The figures I mentioned can be checked with any data service so the trade is fully transparent.
> 
> I am very happy with this trade, but I don't know how much I will make until Saturday, but it won't be a long wait. I think I am safe in saying that I won't lose any money.
> 
> However you guys will probably find a way and a circumstance where I can still lose money. But that's OK. It doesn't worry me one bit, because I know that I cannot lose money on this trade.




Seriously?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, wayneL, as it says in Dr. Faustus: "Gray, my friend, is all theory."
> 
> I really can't be bothered with theoretical examples where you don't even give the premium.
> 
> I much rather stick to practical examples like this one. Only this morning I put on a trade which shows the benefit of delayed options writing.
> 
> This morning, just after the market opened I bought 10,000 CFDs of TSLA at $165.25. This was based on intelligence received from my American friends that TSLA would come out with an excellent earnings report tomorrow. Later on this morning, just before the market closed at 8.00 a.m TSLA had risen to $175.00 and I sold 100 call option contacts, strike price $180.00, premium $8.00, expiry Nov 8, 2013.
> 
> I set the S/L at $172.00.
> 
> Now this is a real, live example and the trade won't conclude (unless I get stopped out) until market close on November 8, which will be 8.00 a.m. Saturday, November 9 here in Australia.
> 
> The figures I mentioned can be checked with any data service so the trade is fully transparent.
> 
> I am very happy with this trade, but I don't know how much I will make until Saturday, but it won't be a long wait. I think I am safe in saying that I won't lose any money.
> 
> However you guys will probably find a way and a circumstance where I can still lose money. But that's OK. It doesn't worry me one bit, because I know that I cannot lose money on this trade.




If you took the trade then well done. But this is a 'buy the rumour', rather than some kind of options play. Any instrument would have made money going just pure long, conversely any short would have lost money. Good thing that tip was bullish eh?

Everyone had a go at you with the AAPL trade because that was a pure punt, since you took the trade at end of day right before earnings which could have gapped either way. 

---------------

Can't seem to find Spectrum Live Capital Management's performance anywhere. slcm.com is down so i'll check again tomorrow


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



kid hustlr said:


> Seriously?




Yes, absolutely seriously. 

I am not going to risk a large percentage of my account for the fun of it, even though the worst outcome would be not making any money at all.

Making money is a serious business, nothing funny about it, but it is a lot of  fun.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

skyQuake, it was a bit more than a rumour, it was well researched market intelligence.

And if I am not completely mistaken, buying CFDs, then, when the price has risen, writing covered calls OTM over those CFDs is still an "options play". I seem to recall seeing it referred to as "delayed" writing of covered calls.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, wayneL, as it says in Dr. Faustus: "Gray, my friend, is all theory."
> 
> I really can't be bothered with theoretical examples where you don't even give the premium.
> 
> I much rather stick to practical examples like this one. Only this morning I put on a trade which shows the benefit of delayed options writing.
> 
> This morning, just after the market opened I bought 10,000 CFDs of TSLA at $165.25. This was based on intelligence received from my American friends that TSLA would come out with an excellent earnings report tomorrow. Later on this morning, just before the market closed at 8.00 a.m TSLA had risen to $175.00 and I sold 100 call option contacts, strike price $180.00, premium $8.00, expiry Nov 8, 2013.
> 
> I set the S/L at $172.00.
> 
> Now this is a real, live example and the trade won't conclude (unless I get stopped out) until market close on November 8, which will be 8.00 a.m. Saturday, November 9 here in Australia.
> 
> The figures I mentioned can be checked with any data service so the trade is fully transparent.
> 
> I am very happy with this trade, but I don't know how much I will make until Saturday, but it won't be a long wait. I think I am safe in saying that I won't lose any money.
> 
> However you guys will probably find a way and a circumstance where I can still lose money. But that's OK. It doesn't worry me one bit, because I know that I cannot lose money on this trade.




It's a hindsight trade and whether you took this trade or not is immaterial.

But the trade as described is actually two separate trades:

Trade one is long the CFD, with open ended risk and reward.

Trade two is writing the the call CFD.

So you (purportedly) took on substantial risk, locked in the (purported) profit via a short ITM call.

Loss is less probable, but still possible, consider if the stock tanks to... say... $100 next session. Think a loss is not possible and you are deluded.

Let's look at a different scenario - You bought the stock and it went the other way.... you would be deep underwater right now.


----------



## Bort

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

No comment about Kertcher but if you don't like how much he charges you should consider how many household name brokerage firm stockbrokers run covered call strategies. $3200 or whatever it costs you to actually learn about about covered calls is easily nailed in a rolling a portfolio full of covered calls at $70-$110 per leg!

A lot easier to call out one guy with his name to something than the faceless people at major brokerage firms?

Agree covered calls wouldn't be my optimal strategy. McMillan and Taleb will confirm this but how many punters have read Options as a strategic investment or black swan cover to cover?

At least covered calls is A strategy which if you execute systematically is more that one could say about a lot of strategy down at the morning meeting of your full advice broker.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> It's a hindsight trade and whether you took this trade or not is immaterial.
> 
> But the trade as described is actually two separate trades:
> 
> Trade one is long the CFD, with open ended risk and reward.
> 
> Trade two is writing the the call CFD.
> 
> So you (purportedly) took on substantial risk, locked in the (purported) profit via a short ITM call.
> 
> Loss is less probable, but still possible, consider if the stock tanks to... say... $100 next session. Think a loss is not possible and you are deluded.
> 
> Let's look at a different scenario - You bought the stock and it went the other way.... you would be deep underwater right now.




Since when is a trade that has just been entered and does not conclude until 4 days from now a "hindsight" trade?

Have you never heard of a Stop Loss Order?

It seems that no matter what I do, you will always find some fault with it.

For your information it was a trade based on very well researched market intelligence, but you probably wouldn't understand that.

In any case, it does not matter what you think or  say. That trade will conclude this Saturday at 8.00 a.m. and I know that it will be profitable. The only thing I don't know is the size of the profit. But I am a patient man, I can wait.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Since when is a trade that has just been entered and does not conclude until 4 days from now a "hindsight" trade?
> 
> Have you never heard of a Stop Loss Order?
> 
> It seems that no matter what I do, you will always find some fault with it.
> 
> For your information it was a trade based on very well researched market intelligence, but you probably wouldn't understand that.
> 
> In any case, it does not matter what you think or  say. That trade will conclude this Saturday at 8.00 a.m. and I know that it will be profitable. The only thing I don't know is the size of the profit. But I am a patient man, I can wait.




It doesn't matter, it's still two trades, not reflective of a cc entered as a single trade.

As an example of what we have been discussing, it is invalid.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> It doesn't matter, it's still two trades, not reflective of a cc entered as a single trade.
> 
> As an example of what we have been discussing, it is invalid.




Since it is going to make me a lot of money  -  WTF does it matter?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Since it is going to make me a lot of money  -  WTF does it matter?




The discussion is Kertchers DITM CCs, Greeks, risk, and possibility of loss. Vis a vis, examining your repeated claims that a DITM cc as constructed has no chance of loss.

Now you can wiggle about posting purported trades that have extraneous vectors unnrelated to the specific type of trade under examination, after the fact, to muddy the waters; or you cab fess up and admit that you made claims that were complete BS.

Also, it is near the end of the NY session Alvin. If I wanted to impress the asinine and the gullible, I could go and find an optionable mover, check the course of sales so I don't make a fool of myself like you did a few weeks ago and get caught out lying, and purport to have made a spectacular trade.

I would then bluster and move the goalposts around, refuse to show my broker statements, brag about all the money I purportedly made etc.

So let's just stick to the question - After learning about Greeks, do you still claim that the only result from DITM CCs is breakeven or profit.

In addition, you never answered my question with regards the phantom trade above. What if your stock went down ten bucks before shorting the call?

Just stray on track, no red herrings Alvin.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Have you never heard of a Stop Loss Order?




Have you never heard of a naked written put?



Alvin Purple said:


> It seems that no matter what I do, you will always find some fault with it.




Do you ever actually wonder why that might be? 

Perhaps, it's due to gross misrepresentations of risks inherent to a certain trading methodology.

Or maybe it has something to do with repeated failures to accede to requests for audited broker statements, substantiating claims of financial results achieved with said trading methodology.

Mayhaps the criticisms result from a combination of both the aforementioned deficiencies!


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Tesla missed some "whisper" numbers, stock tumbles...


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Looks like ur stop got hit. What did you do with those written calls?


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Looks like ur stop got hit. What did you do with those written calls?




Hopefully Alvin had a GSL @ $172.00, otherwise there is a $100k loss on the CFD based on the After Hours close price $155. To offset of course, he should collect $80k Short call premium which is probable as the tanked stock price is unlikely to recover by the close on the 8th. To eliminate risk, Alvin should buy back the calls at a profit now. If all goes Alvin's way, he will collect $150k. Comments Alvin?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Couldn't have been a GSL as it wasn't minimum 5% away.


----------



## kid hustlr

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

'bump'


----------



## CanOz

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> Hopefully Alvin had a GSL @ $172.00, otherwise there is a $100k loss on the CFD based on the After Hours close price $155. To offset of course, he should collect $80k Short call premium which is probable as the tanked stock price is unlikely to recover by the close on the 8th. To eliminate risk, Alvin should buy back the calls at a profit now. If all goes Alvin's way, he will collect $150k. Comments Alvin?




Yes Alvin, we're eagerly awaiting how you managed to pull this one off...


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, wayneL, as it says in Dr. Faustus: "Gray, my friend, is all theory."
> 
> I really can't be bothered with theoretical examples where you don't even give the premium.
> 
> I much rather stick to practical examples like this one. Only this morning I put on a trade which shows the benefit of delayed options writing.
> 
> This morning, just after the market opened I bought 10,000 CFDs of TSLA at $165.25. This was based on intelligence received from my American friends that TSLA would come out with an excellent earnings report tomorrow. Later on this morning, just before the market closed at 8.00 a.m TSLA had risen to $175.00 and I sold 100 call option contacts, strike price $180.00, premium $8.00, expiry Nov 8, 2013.
> 
> I set the S/L at $172.00.
> 
> Now this is a real, live example and the trade won't conclude (unless I get stopped out) until market close on November 8, which will be 8.00 a.m. Saturday, November 9 here in Australia.
> 
> The figures I mentioned can be checked with any data service so the trade is fully transparent.
> 
> I am very happy with this trade, but I don't know how much I will make until Saturday, but it won't be a long wait. I think I am safe in saying that I won't lose any money.
> 
> However you guys will probably find a way and a circumstance where I can still lose money. But that's OK. It doesn't worry me one bit, because I know that I cannot lose money on this trade.





I am devastated.

That is why I thought it might be a good idea to repost my post from November 5.

After I had bought my CFDs the price kept rising. However, at about 4.10 a.m. on November 6 the price had dropped to $172.00, my stop loss was hit and my CFDs were sold (at a profit btw). When I checked my account at 7.00 a.m. on November 6 I was considering whether to reenter the market when I received an email from my research service telling me that the earnings report to be released later that day would still be positive as forecast but that there had been other developments (like TESLA cars catching fire when involved in collisions, blown up out of all proportions by their competitors) which would spook the market and lead to a sharp selloff. So I decided against reentering the market and sure enough by next day (November 7) TSLA had dropped sharply to about  $150. 

The $180 call options I had sold looked very profitable now and since there was only one day left to expiry I decided not to buy them back and just let them expire worthless, which they did early this morning.

I am devastated that you guys could even think that I would lose money. As I said before, I have been trading for more than three years now and have yet to encounter a losing month.

I must admit this trade did not turn out exactly as I thought, but I am still very happy with the result.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Whereas my dictionary once defined the word "risky" as "attended with risk;unsafe", that entry has now been amended to read as "refer Alvin's trades for the week ending November 9, 2013".


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I am devastated that you guys could even think that I would lose money. As I said before, I have been trading for more than three years now and have yet to encounter a losing month.




This really sums it up. As mentioned before, Alvin has re-written the financial laws and is able to take on risk without ever having a losing month 

Why aren't you trading for a hedge fund? Greg Coffey makes *>$350m pa* and he has losing months...


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

cynic and prawn_86:

There is risk in everything we do. It's how you control those risk is what matters.

And no, I don't want to run a Hedge Fund (or any other fund for that matter). I'll leave that to the likes of Daniel. I believe his fund is doing reasonably well.

And I don't want to work more than about an hour a day, otherwise it becomes a job.

I am happy doing what I am doing all by myself (with a bit of help from reputable research services)


----------



## Samuel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

10,000 CFD's on one stock.

Please humour me Mr Alvin Purple, in dollar terms what exactly was your risk management plan in relation to the stock and the calls?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> 10,000 CFD's on one stock.
> 
> Please humour me Mr Alvin Purple, in dollar terms what exactly was your risk management plan in relation to the stock and the calls?




There is no need for risk management in fictional hindsight trades Samuel.

But some numbers for the purported trade.

Initial deltas 10,000

Face value $1,652,500.00 

Initial margin requirement $165,250.00

100 day yearly volatility ~64%

100 day daily volatility ~4%

Ergo, a single sigma daily move at current price levels is approximately $6.00.

Which is equivalent to $60,000.00

This means there is approximately a 1/3 chance of any daily move being greater than $60,000.00, both for or against the trade.

In the last 200 days, there have been 4 and 5 sigma daily moves, a $240,000 - $300,000 effect on equity in a 10,000 delta position size.

Some of these numbers change when the call is added, but not materially, and introduced additional numbers for consideration.

This is the terms in which risk should be viewed.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> There is no need for risk management in fictional hindsight trades Samuel. ...




If I did the trade and then I posted.
And then travelled back in time and changed my mind about the trade, ... 
Am I a time traveller or what?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Samuel and burglar:

Sorry, wayne_L has beaten me to the punch. His explanation is excellent and there is nothing I can add.

The outcome was not quite what I expected, but as so often in life, you don't always get what you want. 

I was hoping not to get stopped out and for the price to increase to $180.00 at expiry. This way I would have made $14.75 from the CFDs, and $8.00 from the calls. As it turned out, I made $6.75 from the CFDs and $8.00 from the calls, out of which I had to pay brokerage and a bit of interest for the money I had borrowed to buy the CFDs. Had the price risen above $180.00, for every dollar I would have lost on the calls, I would have made a dollar on the CFDs, so the result would have been the same.

And burglar, I just cannot understand how you and wayne_L can call it a hindsight trade when the trade still had 4 days to run after I posted it.

I'll give you another example: Saturday morning (November 9) about 1.30 a.m. the investment world was abuzz with reports that a deal between Apple and China Mobile was imminent.I looked at the AAPL chart  and noticed that the price had bottomed and the indicators looked bullish. Another candidate for delayed options writing I thought, so I bought AAPL CFDs at $512.90, set the S/L at $511.00 and went to bed.

In the morning, about $7.30 a.m. I looked at the chart again and noticed that the price had risen to $520. So I sold the November calls (expiring on November 16 at 8.00 a.m.), strike price $530.00 for a premium of $1.90. And I moved the S/L to $516.00 (risk management is very important, you know).

So, for the next 5 days I'll be watching AAPL about once or twice a day. The ideal situation would be that the price ends up at $530.00 on expiry but it most likely won't. However, I know, that no matter where the price ends up, I'll make some money.

Remember, this trade has 5 days to run, so, please, don't call it a hindsight trade, but you probably will anyway.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Daniel

Describing what you have purported to have done the night before, the next day, is not a live trade, as it can be constructed in retrospect, irrespective of the expiry date.

This is what you have done with all your supposed trades. I suspect you know this, but are playing people for fools. Of course some people are fools, which is why the seminars are a success. There are very few fools here however.

A genuine live trade is posting the trade no more than a few minutes after it is taken, with additions posted as they happen (IE a few minutes afetr to allow for time for posting).

You see I bought 100,000 FCX CFDs at the Friday session open for $35.65. Near the end of the session with FCX @ $36.50, I sold a synthetic short (short 1000 x 37 Nov Calls, Long 1000 x 37 Nov Calls) to lock in $85k profit to be collected next Saturday.

If you want a broker's statement, I'll post one just like you did earlier in this thread.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Daniel




Oh sorry bro, I forgot you are known by a _nom de plume_ here on ASF.

Alvin it is.


----------



## Samuel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

You failed to mention how many contracts you bought this time but I am guessing another 10,000. I know you've had no losses but does your trading methodology regularly set stops at 0.37% away from the share price?

BTW, how much did you make last week on your TSLA buy write?


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> ... Am I a time traveller or what?




I don't believe in time travel.
So I guess that makes me a novelist.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> Alvin,
> 
> You failed to mention how many contracts you bought this time but I am guessing another 10,000. I know you've had no losses but does your trading methodology regularly set stops at 0.37% away from the share price?
> 
> BTW, how much did you make last week on your TSLA buy write?




Samuel oh Samuel, did you not see my post where I told you that I made $6.75 on the CFDs and $8.00 on the calls?

And the stop is set where I think is the most appropriate level considering all the circumstances. As soon as the trade has moved a reasonable distance into profit,  the S/L is moved to a level which locks in some of that profit. But you knew all that, didn't you?

The number of CFDs I buy is immaterial because the principle is the same whether you buy 100 or 1000 or 10,000 CFDs (except that the brokerage becomes a bit expensive at the lower numbers because there is a minimum brokerage amount). But if you must know, with TSLA I bought 10,000 CFDs, with AAPL I bought 5,000 because I did not want to overextend myself. I only allow myself a certain percentage of my total account balance per trade since I want to be able to enter other trades while the first trade is running. It's called "diversification" and is an important component in my risk management.

All we have to do now is wait until Saturday to see how the AAPL trade pans out. If other trades come up during the week and if I take them, I will post the fact within a few minutes of me taking the trade so that there cannot be any more talk of "hindsight" trades.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Samuel, wayneL has described risk management very extensively in a recent post. I couldn't have said it better myself. And I am not in the habit of repeating the same message over and over again. If you want to study risk management in detail I can only refer you to the books wayneL recommended.


----------



## kid hustlr

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I truly believe this is one of the best levels I've seen on the net. Brightens up my day reading this each morning it actually does make me laugh at loud.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Samuel, I don't understand why you even have to ask such a question.

Last night, being a Monday night, I stayed up a bit longer than usual because I knew I could sleep in this morning. When I got stopped out at $516 (with a $3.00 profit) I watched the market a bit longer and saw AAPL bottoming out at $515.00. So I bought all the shares back at $514.90, set the S/L at $513.00 and went to bed. When I got up this morning about 10.00 a.m. I noticed that AAPL had risen to $519.05, so I was in profit again. Tonight I won't stay up as long (in fact I will be turning in shortly) but before I go to bed I will move the S/L to $517.00.

There is nothing I will have to do about the calls. I sold them for $1.90 and because the share price is still a fair way away from the $530.00 strike price and also because of the time decay those calls are worth only about half what I sold them for. My current intention is to let them expire this weekend. Should AAPL rise above the strike price by then, there is still nothing to worry about because they are "covered" calls (covered by the AAPL shares I still hold).

So you see, I can sleep without a worry in the world tonight. Tomorrow morning, after a good night's  sleep, I will decide what to do, if I have to do anything at all.

I am looking forward to tomorrow for another reason as well. At 10.00 a.m. I have an important date with a fascinating young lady.

'night all!


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> If other trades come up during the week and if I take them, I will post the fact within a few minutes of me taking the trade so that there cannot be any more talk of "hindsight" trades.




So what happened with the AAPL trade where you "bought" shares just after it bottomed. Why did you not post it a few minutes later after you saw it "bottomed" and bought  ?? 

Anyone can buy right near the low on hindsight bragging about it.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

minwa, you just don't get it, do you?

There is no bragging involved. Anyone with half a brain can see that there is no way I can lose on this trade when it concludes Saturday at 8.00 a,m.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yeah because you entered in the prices after the fact, obivously it is unloseable trade. 

Don't avoid my question why did you not post the trade right away after you said you would in previous post ??


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

In twenty minutes when the market opens I will observe what happens. The S/L is still at $517.00. If I get stopped out, I will simply rebuy at a lower level with a S/L about $2.00 below that. If I don't get stopped out and the price climbs, I'll just let it run and collect my profit on  Saturday and if the price stays below $530.00 I'll also collect the profits on the calls.

Now I have told you what I am going to do, well before I do it.  Happy now?


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Anyone with half a brain can see that there is no way I can lose on this trade when it concludes Saturday at 8.00 a,m.




And that sums it up just there. Once again Daniel/Alvin claims to have broken financial physics and is gaining reward with no risk


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Samuel, I don't understand why you even have to ask such a question.
> 
> Last night, being a Monday night, I stayed up a bit longer than usual because I knew I could sleep in this morning. When I got stopped out at $516 (with a $3.00 profit) I watched the market a bit longer and saw AAPL bottoming out at $515.00. So I bought all the shares back at $514.90, set the S/L at $513.00 and went to bed. When I got up this morning about 10.00 a.m. I noticed that AAPL had risen to $519.05, so I was in profit again. Tonight I won't stay up as long (in fact I will be turning in shortly) but before I go to bed I will move the S/L to $517.00.



I've been following this trade closely. A bit Confused. According to my IG Platform chart (attached), AAPL traded at $517 during the first minute of market open 13/11 @1.30am, just over 3 hours after the above post. I presume Alvin would have been stopped out. When did he re-enter and at what price? The price rose to $523.32 at around 2.30am and had a low of of $518.27 for the session all the while Alvin was asleep. Alvin, your latest post does not mention this. 
The same thing happened this morning 14/11 @1.39am, market dipped on open hitting $516.90 so Alvin would have been stopped out again. Unless my chart is lying and Alvin's first stop did not get triggered, a clarification is needed simply for the benefit of those following this trade to its completion on Saturday @8am. If any of my observations above are incorrect, I stand to be corrected and apologise.Thanks.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

That is correct.

However, I did not get stopped out on Wednesday morning, but I got stopped out this morning just after the market opened. This stopout resulted in another $2.10 of profit. The price then formed a double bottom (a bullish signal) and soon after began to rise. So I bought back in at $518.00, set the S/L at $516.00 and went to bed.

When I got up in the morning I saw the price had risen to $520.63. I moved the S/L to $519.00 but I won't be watching the opening in 4 hours as I will be fast asleep. I'll check the price again in the morning (Friday morning) but it matters little. If I get stopped out again, I'll make another $1.00 profit. If I don't get stopped out and the price rises to, say, $529.00 by Saturday morning, I'll make another $11.00 profit as well as keeping the $1.90 option premium as the calls will expire worthless.

Again, I am talking about future events, not the past. There is no need to talk about the past as we all can see by simply looking at the charts.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> However, I did not get stopped out on Wednesday morning, but I got stopped out this morning just after the market opened. This stopout resulted in another $2.10 of profit. The price then formed a double bottom (a bullish signal) and soon after began to rise. So I bought back in at $518.00, set the S/L at $516.00 and went to bed.




Care to provide broker statements just for this order so we can see you are not hindsight trading?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> That is correct.
> 
> However, I did not get stopped out on Wednesday morning, but I got stopped out this morning just after the market opened. This stopout resulted in another $2.10 of profit. The price then formed a double bottom (a bullish signal) and soon after began to rise. So I bought back in at $518.00, set the S/L at $516.00 and went to bed.
> 
> When I got up in the morning I saw the price had risen to $520.63. I moved the S/L to $519.00 but I won't be watching the opening in 4 hours as I will be fast asleep. I'll check the price again in the morning (Friday morning) but it matters little. If I get stopped out again, I'll make another $1.00 profit. If I don't get stopped out and the price rises to, say, $529.00 by Saturday morning, I'll make another $11.00 profit as well as keeping the $1.90 option premium as the calls will expire worthless.
> 
> Again, I am talking about future events, not the past. There is no need to talk about the past as we all can see by simply looking at the charts.




*There is nothing about the future in the statements in red. You have posted them well after the fact breaking the rules for live trade recording.*

Just more hindsight trading Alvin. Anybody can do this.

Also, this has very little to do with the DITM buy/writes described earlier.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Good Morning, Guys and Girls!

I haven't done anything to my position since the last time I posted.

However, in the next minute or so I will move the S/L to $527.00. I haven't done it yet, but I will do so soon. That is future tense, not past tense, just in case you are tempted to call it a "hindsight" trade.

According to wayneL, all this has nothing to do with call writing.

Whatever!

It may not be call writing in the classical sense, but then again, I was never one much for doing things the conventional way.

However, it has a lot to do with making money, and heaps of it. And that is all that matters to me. It is legal and it is fun.

However, I am not out of the woods yet. There could be a "Black Swan" Event before 8.00 a.m. tomorrow morning and I could blow up my whole account. Right?

Somehow I think this won't happen. But I won't count my chickens before they are hatched.

I am sure tomorrow, after the market has closed and all the options have expired, you guys will tell me all the things I have done wrong, while I'll be counting my profits. I think that's fair.

Sorry, I can't provide you with charts about future events, but you and I can all watch it "live" on any of the data services.  Bloomberg is probably the most accurate.

But now I must rush off to move my S/L to $527.00 (a future event) and then I must be off to the gym for my morning workout. Gotta keep my body active and healthy, too. Healthy body, healthy mind, and all that.

Talk to you soon.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Yep, I got stopped out. At least I made a decent profit on the CFDs. The calls will expire at 8.00 a.m. this morning. If the price stays below $530.00 I will get the full premium ($1.90), if the price goes to $531.90 I'll break even, and if the price goes above $531.90 I'll make a small loss, which, however will be fully covered by the profit I have already made on the CFDs.

Good Night All.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yep, I got stopped out. At least I made a decent profit on the CFDs. The calls will expire at 8.00 a.m. this morning. If the price stays below $530.00 I will get the full premium ($1.90), if the price goes to $531.90 I'll break even, and if the price goes above $531.90 I'll make a small loss, which, however will be fully covered by the profit I have already made on the CFDs.
> 
> Good Night All.




Care to show actual broker statements for this latest trade?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> According to wayneL, all this has nothing to do with call writing.




We all know you are loose with the truth, but please to not use an outright lie in misrepresenting what I said.

I said "this has very little to do with the *DITM** buy/writes described earlier*"


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> I said "this has very little to do with the *DITM** buy/writes described earlier*"





That is correct, wayneL. It has little to do with anything you say or do.

However, I am very happy doing it, as it happens to make me a lot of money. Isn' that what it is all about?

I would have thought so.

Looks like AAPL is going to finish well below $530.00 in the next 15 minutes, and I am off on a three day holiday.

Bye All.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

That's true Daniel/Alvin. The reason being that I continue to be on topic, viz DITM buy writes, while you have transmogrified into an imaginary short term swing/day trader, which is not duplicable for the gullible folk that  go to your seminars.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> Care to show actual broker statements for this latest trade?




Just like Daniel's managed fund, SLCM or something, no results are shown, only talked about on the internet. I have emailed them few days ago asking for any performance record and have not received a response. I guess they don't  list their returns on the website like other funds because they are probably negative which is why they ignoring people who demand real performance.


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> ... Bye All.




You will be back. Why ... because you are getting what you want.






I wish I knew what that is?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> You will be back. Why ... because you are getting what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I knew what that is?






Google hits

gg


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Google hits
> 
> gg




So we are helping, then?!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> So we are helping, then?!




Yes, you are, less is more in relation to this insanity.

gg


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> Just like Daniel's managed fund, SLCM or something, no results are shown, only talked about on the internet. I have emailed them few days ago asking for any performance record and have not received a response. I guess they don't  list their returns on the website like other funds because they are probably negative which is why they ignoring people who demand real performance.




Minwa, to be eligible to invest in the SLCM fund you need to complete either or both of the corresponding Trading Pursuits courses lmao. So maybe they didn't get back to you because after checking you hadn't fulfilled the requirements to be one of the 'graduates' lucky enough to have the opportunity to invest in the fund? lol


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> Minwa, to be eligible to invest in the SLCM fund you need to complete either or both of the corresponding Trading Pursuits courses lmao. So maybe they didn't get back to you because after checking you hadn't fulfilled the requirements to be one of the 'graduates' lucky enough to have the opportunity to invest in the fund? lol




Oh dear another Daniel incarnation making claims of outstanding returns that could easily be proven but unsurprisingly offering no such proof of those returns or performance.


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> Oh dear another Daniel incarnation making claims of outstanding returns that could easily be proven but unsurprisingly offering no such proof of those returns or performance.




definitely not. a fund that charges ard 3,000$ to gain access to invest in it (through course enrollment) with less than a year's history an base on what happened to the previous Kertcher affiliated fund (Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge Fund) I for 1 will be staying well clear


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> It may not be call writing in the classical sense, but then again, I was never one much for doing things the conventional way.




Clearly, running with Alvin on this issue will not answer the purpose of this thread. By his own admission we know that Alvin's Trades deviate markedly (?) from the Trading Pursuits (TP)  Income Report trade ideas. It would be fair to say that his results are not what you would obtain if you followed  TP Monthly Trade ideas strictly.  Looking at Alvin's trades, a lay person would get a completely wrong idea about the nature of the trades that TP suggests for members. Alvin is a Discretionary Trader, he has stated that he was influenced by the TP course/s that he had attended and that's all good. He now trades his own unique style modified somewhat from his original TP knowledge.  It works for him. If what Alvin portrays in his posts is accurate, then he has been " IN THE ZONE" with a purple patch for over 3 years,  good luck to him and may the Trading Gods continue to be with him. And by the way WayneL,  Alvin could not possibly be Daniel  Kertcher  in disguise, from my observations, Daniel is too polished an individual to engage in this level of subterfuge.

On the flip side however, there are I believe, a majority of others like myself who have attended the TP course and have been trading US options strictly off the Trade ideas provided monthly and weekly from TP. We don't go searching for our own trades and are quite happy for TP to provide a list of filtered ideas to choose from (priceless).  It's time we came forward.

As for me,  I have been using TP since Nov 2010 albeit in a patchy manner for the first 30 months, but it was only in June 2013 after having been convinced of its viability (my opinion again) and armed with  steely determination, did I finally decide to adequately fund my account and take every trade idea from TP. I have coupled this with my own robust risk management tool  for exiting losing positions which is slightly more conservative than what TP uses. By the way, I agree with WayneL; a covered Call with GSL is not without risk of loss. In fact the DITM buy/writes are no longer a feature  of TP's trade ideas in their Income report,  I don't trades these at all, because firstly, they were relatively cumbersome to execute and manage, secondly TP has not provided enough of them to make it viable (averaging less than 1 covered call per month now eg. none for this December), and lastly, in my opinion, they were no less riskier than the naked variety in certain circumstances(stressed). I concentrate only on TP's 2nd course - the Income PLUS trade ideas, purely for the Income Generation it offers through short PUTs and short CALLs.

What about my results so far?  I undertook to post my results on this thread after 6 months of trades, or, if there was a losing month. It has been 5 months and there was a losing month in October.  I have been aiming for an average 5% return per month on my entire account balance (as opposed to return on margin employed ). Suffice to say, I have not achieved  this.  I've averaged  just 3.36% per month over 5 months so far because of that 1 losing month and also because volatility was low, consequently premium. However my 4 winning months have averaged 4.69% per month. I fully agree that the 5 months results are woefully inadequate to confirm the long term viability of my activity, however I believe that provided I continue to rigorously apply my exit plan (when needed) I will avoid the proverbial Steam roller and continue to pick up my pennies on the way. 

As for "Black Swan" events, well that's another thing all together. Any Market participant can be affected by one of these either negatively or positively. I currently do not have any insurance against the negative effects of this but am seriously considering incorporating a permanent long/short term PUT option on the SPY ETF as part of my Trading Plan in future - my equivalent of the GSL, it will no doubt affect returns. Any advice on this is appreciated. Bottom line for me - do the course/s, become part of the TP family, capitalise on the filtered trade ideas, take the trades and hopefully achieve the desired results for the long term. This has been my personal experience with TP, I am not "shilling", "sockpuppeting" or "Danieling" here, so please don't have a go at me.

So here it is, my complete results  for the past  5 months, all trades ideas from TP, every winner and every loser, laid bare for judgement as to whether or not a Scam has been perpetrated on us. I don't think so. The Learned ones here have always insisted on proof so I have sent Joe my Original Trading statements (36 in total) from IG Markets that support these results..... It has been a massive effort on my part to do this. I feel quite exposed. However, I am happy to now continue to post monthly results in this format. 

Would love to hear  from others who are actively trading US options using  Daniel Kertcher's TP trade ideas, whether successfully or otherwise (on this thread or you can PM me).


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Pure Silk

Thanks for the effort to show your results. Though impossible for us to verify, I believe it has reflected your real trading... pretty much what I would have expected in the market conditions for the period.

As I have said all along, there is nothing wrong with the strategy per se. It is what it is with risks and rewards and no reason it cannot be profitable.

You are right to be concerned by a black swan event however... not even a black swan as you are very highly leveraged. Most of the trades I looked at had a face value higher than your entire account size. With several such trades open at the same time, you have massive exposure.... *massive portfolio heat*.

You had a losing month October in a benign market. Your biggest loss was with a relatively minor swoon against you. Imagine if several moved against you like that at the same time in just a minor market wide swoon.

This is not to bag you, it is out of concern having witnessed others experiences.

Thanks again PS it verifies much of what we have been saying.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Though impossible for us to verify, I believe it has reflected your real trading... pretty much what I would have expected in the market conditions for the period.




He did say he emailed the IB statements to Joe, so we can wait for that verification


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> He did say he emailed the IB statements to Joe, so we can wait for that verification




The post shows he has emailed his statements from IG Markets, unless he has corrected it, subsequent to your post, from IB?


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



nulla nulla said:


> The post shows he has emailed his statements from IG Markets, unless he has corrected it, subsequent to your post, from IB?



It is definitely IG Markets - not IB , no corrections done to post.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I can confirm that I have received a number of broker statements from Pure Silk with his personal information removed. The statements are from IG Markets.

However, there are quite a lot of statements, and I have not yet checked them against the spreadsheets that have been posted in this thread.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Although I have not gone through and cross checked every single trade, as far as I can tell everything appears to be in order and the trades and profit/loss figures are genuine as claimed.


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Pure Silk said:


> It is definitely IG Markets - not IB , no corrections done to post.






Joe Blow said:


> I can confirm that I have received a number of broker statements from Pure Silk with his personal information removed. The statements are from IG Markets.
> 
> However, there are quite a lot of statements, and I have not yet checked them against the spreadsheets that have been posted in this thread.






Joe Blow said:


> Although I have not gone through and cross checked every single trade, as far as I can tell everything appears to be in order and the trades and profit/loss figures are genuine as claimed.




Having made the effort to provide Joe with evidence in support of his stated trading results, I think Pure Silk has established his credibility and is entitled to our respect regardless of whether or not we agree with his strategy.


----------



## Samuel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



nulla nulla said:


> Having made the effort to provide Joe with evidence in support of his stated trading results, I think Pure Silk has established his credibility and is entitled to our respect regardless of whether or not we agree with his strategy.




Agreed, absolutely.
Interested to hear PS response to WayneL.
All strategies should be battle tested and back tested for the severest of market conditions, including currency risk which is not spoken about enough, if at all.


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> Agreed, absolutely.
> Interested to hear PS response to WayneL.
> All strategies should be battle tested and back tested for the severest of market conditions, including currency risk which is not spoken about enough, if at all.




Personaly I don't have much faith in backtesting when it comes to trading schemes in regard equities. The problem with back testing equities is the presumption that a prospective trader would have been able to execute a buy or sell transaction at the desired price on the day without consideration for the number of transactions and/or the volume of trades that took place at the desired entry/exit point. 

Backtesting always assumes you were able to buy at the target purchase price or sell at the desired sale price. The reality is often somewhat different. The reality of trading equities often depends on your place in the queue and whether there are enough sellers to fill your order selling down to where you are waiting or buyers buying up to where you are positioned to sell. 

At times you can be at the front of a queue at any price point that is being hit, only to see other orders in the queue behind you being filled due to cross trades within the broking house. Often the share price will move leaving you hanging out with an incomplete purchase/sale or no purchase/sale at all despite being well placed in the queue.

Then again this post is possibly irrelevent as earlier posts were not related to trading equities.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Pure Silk
> 
> Thanks for the effort to show your results. Though impossible for us to verify, I believe it has reflected your real trading... pretty much what I would have expected in the market conditions for the period.
> 
> As I have said all along, there is nothing wrong with the strategy per se. It is what it is with risks and rewards and no reason it cannot be profitable.
> 
> You are right to be concerned by a black swan event however... not even a black swan as you are very highly leveraged. Most of the trades I looked at had a face value higher than your entire account size. With several such trades open at the same time, you have massive exposure.... *massive portfolio heat*.
> 
> You had a losing month October in a benign market. Your biggest loss was with a relatively minor swoon against you. Imagine if several moved against you like that at the same time in just a minor market wide swoon.
> 
> This is not to bag you, it is out of concern having witnessed others experiences.
> 
> Thanks again PS it verifies much of what we have been saying.




Thanks wayneL.
Appreciate the comments and concern. 
Re my exposure, I understand the risks, each of the trades have been selected by TP based on a number of criteria, inter alia, no earnings/announcements, generous buffers to strike, strikes selected outside established support and resistance and most importantly a wide range of diversification across many sectors - the usual criteria most good punters would utilize to provide some degree of safety. Given this, it is reasonable to expect that collateral damage would be minimal in the event of any "market swoons". However, if a back swan event should be encountered, and they are usually of the southern heading variety, I expect my protective long PUT option will save the day, if not at least a little bit of the furniture. This game is not without its risks. The loosing trade in October that you allude to should have been cut short days earlier when my "robust" risk management tool kicked in, but I contracted a bad case of "rabbits caught in the headlights" and waited for TP to act. Never again.

I have taken more trades for December expiry (14) and would be looking tonight to buy some PUT insurance when the market opens.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



nulla nulla said:


> Having made the effort to provide Joe with evidence in support of his stated trading results, I think Pure Silk has established his credibility and is entitled to our respect regardless of whether or not we agree with his strategy.




Thanks nulla nulla, I'll try not to make a fool of myself in the company of gentlemen.

- - - Updated - - -



Joe Blow said:


> Although I have not gone through and cross checked every single trade, as far as I can tell everything appears to be in order and the trades and profit/loss figures are genuine as claimed.




Thanks Joe for taking the trouble to do this.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Sooner or later Pure Silk's results will be confirmed. 

I can state right now that an average return of 3.36 % per month for the last 5 months has been achieved by people who have followed TP's recommendations.

Now, 3.36 % per month (40.3 % p.a.) is not "picking up pennies". It is, in fact, a very respectable return. Much better than you get from any of the retail mutual funds and investment companies.

As I have stated before, my long-term average (over more than 3 years) has been 2.5 % per month (30 % p.a.), not quite as good as 40.3 % p.a., but providing me with a steady cashflow and now, since I am making more profits in a month than I need for my lifestyle, I can allow the excess to compound. If I let all my profits compound every month, my capital would double in 2.4 years (2 years and 5 months). I don't know of any other investment that would double in value every 2.4 years.

So, when Pure Silk's figures are finally confirmed, we can all agree that Daniel Kertcher is not a scam, can't we?

Of course, you won't. 

Because you have an agenda and that is to discredit Daniel for whatever petty reasons you may have.

But it has backfired on you  BIG TIME.

I don't often agree with Garpal Gumnut, but he is 100 % correct when he says that this thread has ensured that Daniel Kertcher's name will remain on page one of Google for a long time.

Well done, folks.

You  have achieved the exact opposite of what you set out to do.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> As I have stated before, my long-term average (over more than 3 years) has been 2.5 % per month (30 % p.a.), not quite as good as 40.3 % p.a., but providing me with a steady cashflow and now, since I am making more profits in a month than I need for my lifestyle, I can allow the excess to compound. If I let all my profits compound every month, my capital would double in 2.4 years (2 years and 5 months). I don't know of any other investment that would double in value every 2.4 years.
> 
> So, when Pure Silk's figures are finally confirmed, we can all agree that Daniel Kertcher is not a scam, can't we?




No one here has said the strategy doesn't work it just will blow up when market conditions change. 

It is just paying massive amounts for something you can learn for free (ie his course), and having to take on huge leverage is extremely risky, and selling it as though it is easy money is hugely mis-leading


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> ... You have achieved the exact opposite of what you set out to do.




And you, Alvin ... what have you achieved, prey tell!


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well, burglar, what did I achieve? I did not have to achieve anything because I did not have an agenda when I came to this forum in January.

I still have no agenda. However, I have learnt a lot in the last year.

I am therefore  grateful to the person who told me about this forum. What I have learnt here has improved my trading performance. My average monthly profit has increased markedly and I am now getting results which are more like Pure Silk's which should not be a surprise to anyone since we are both utilizing Daniel Kertcher's recommendations.

2013 has been my best year so far, and I am looking forward to 2014 with great confidence and I have the feeling that next year will be even better than 2013 has been.

May I wish you all profitable trading.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

LOL Alvin,

Observe Pure Silk for clues for appropriate behaviour.

Until you do the same (ie stump up some broker statments), you have no credibility. All fluff and comedy (in the Greek tragedy sense).

Amusing for us, but essentially all BS.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Samuel, I have been trading with real money for about three and a half years now.

For 2014 I expect a return north of 30 % p.a.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Samuel, I have been trading with real money for about three and a half years now.
> 
> For 2014 I expect a return north of 30 % p.a.




I've been trading with real money too! (Not that phony demo account stuff - no siirrreee!)

For 2014 I am anticipating returns in excess of 200% p.a.

I'll be providing broker statements just like you do Alvin!


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So is Bill Stacy still around?


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> So is Bill Stacy still around?




Mazza, I don't know about Bill Stacy, but welcome back...


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Well, burglar, what did I achieve? I did not have to achieve anything because I did not have an agenda when I came to this forum in January.
> 
> I still have no agenda. However, I have learnt a lot in the last year.
> 
> I am therefore  grateful to the person who told me about this forum. What I have learnt here has improved my trading performance. My average monthly profit has increased markedly and I am now getting results which are more like Pure Silk's which should not be a surprise to anyone since we are both utilizing Daniel Kertcher's recommendations.
> 
> 2013 has been my best year so far, and I am looking forward to 2014 with great confidence and I have the feeling that next year will be even better than 2013 has been.
> 
> May I wish you all profitable trading.




everyone is aware that this thread has been number 1 on Google searches for Daniel Kertcher without success from SEO options (http://www.camthecameraman.com/view-by-tag/daniel+kertcher/)

from the time Kertcher (on Page 6 of this thread on January 30 2012) defends his role in the Platinum Pursuits Growth Fund through til 'Alvin's' first post on January 16 2013 there were only 10 posts. 
since he posted, there have been 470 posts over 24 pages in a mammoth thread.

now it wouldn't look good if the previous Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge fund results were appearing number 1 on google during the approx. time the new Daniel Kertcher Spectrum Live Capital Management fund was to be released...would it. his next courses start again in march 2014 so maybe you will appear again soon 

what a colorful history and this is only some of it 

Multi-Millionaire Under Attack (Source: Jenman.com.au) 
http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=153
“In a 2001 headline which screamed Watch out for these people, the Consumers' Institute featured a photo of Kertcher together with a story about how he ripped-off an elderly man on one of his many dodgy Gold Coast apartment deals. In this example, the 69 year-old lost $86,000.”

Meta Share Feedback (Source: New Zealand Herald):
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=1843340
“Where things went wrong for a while was when a mother and son bought 50 per cent and Bruce Barnard left. They went for high-pressure marketing. Then Metashare went to Australia”

Re: Rich Mastery (Source: Share Chat): 
http://www.sharechat.co.nz/archives/2001/11/msg00176.shtml

Big Spending Buybacks Raises Questions (Source: New Zealand Herald): 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=228205
“Get Rich Quick Schemes The Consumers Institute does an excellent job informing the public about dubious investment schemes.  Queensland-based Daniel Kertcher, who is trying to target New Zealand sharemarket investors, has been mentioned several times.”

Forum Archive Index -2002 (Source: Share Chat NZ) 
http://www.sharechat.co.nz/archives/2002/07/msg00195.shtml 

Consumers Institute of New Zealand -2003 Annual Report (Source: Consumers’ Institute of New Zealand) 
http://www.consumer.org.nz/content/uploads/Image/PDFs/annualreport2003.pdf
‘Scams: Daniel Kertcher trading options’ (Page 5 of report)

Get rich advert fails truth test (Source: Advertising Standards Authority) 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=3551109

ABC – 7:30 Report ‘Wealth Seminar Spruikers back selling schemes’ (Source: ABC) 
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm 

ASF: Re: Storm Financial Group (Source: Aussie Stock Forums) POST#6756 
http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13176&page=338
“My wife and I lost over alot in this - over $150,000, almost our entire investment, in this after the fund was promoted by Daniel on stage in Perth in 2007. I have heard from other who lost much more, some $100's of k's.  As Michael says above, the fund was a very average and spent most of the time losing money.  Then we received an e-mail from Daniel saying that a crowd called Mastering Wealth, who we had never heard of, were taking over and that they would use all the same types of strategies Platinum Pursuits teaches.  Although Daniel offered a redemption request after the Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus hedge Fund returned 0%, he said he was proud to be involved, would continue to refer his clients to it, and outlined expected profits in the order of 25%+.  Based on that, and taking notice of wealth creation experts, we stayed in.  That was a big mistake. Daniels fund made no money but Mastering Wealth lost 95% of our money.  Like Daniel, Mastering Wealth was also running wealth creation seminars in shares and options and charging fees of $1000's for a weekend to learn to create wealth.  We are now very disillusioned with wealth creation seminars that claim to make money in up markets, and down, sideways markets and we have wasted alot of time and alot of money. And as Michael says, protect capital. it has taken us a while to get ove this.  I have since found out that the guy heading up Mastering Wealth, Bill Ryan, was formally an AUD/NZ manager for Daniel Kertcher and Platinum Pursuits.”

*when people lose a lot of money, they don't forget quickly
*


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

no prizes for guessing the company that owns these domain names

www.danielkertcherscam.com
www.platinum-pursuits-scam.com
www.trading-pursuits-scam.com
www.tradingpursuitsscam.com
www.platinumpursuitsscam.com
www.platinumpursuitsscam.net/

yep 'Platinum Pursuits Group' along with '*about 218 other domains*' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://whois.domaintools.com/trading-pursuits-scam.com

shows the lengths these people go to..paranoia, stringent brand management or ?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Only yesterday I checked the ASIC website for any news about Daniel Kertcher. There was nothing, either good or bad. His Australian Financial Services Licence has not been revoked and no complaints about him or his company have been recorded.

Latest figures for the Spectrum Live Capital Management Fund have just been released. In the first six months of its existence it has attracted approximately $23 million from investors and the return for the first six months has been running at the rate of approximately 15 % p.a.

These are the facts. Can you handle them? Probably not. No matter, though, just because some of you cannot handle the truth, it doesn't alter the fact that thousands of people have placed their trust in Daniel and are, apparently, quite happy with the return on their investments.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Only yesterday I checked the ASIC website for any news about Daniel Kertcher. There was nothing, either good or bad. His Australian Financial Services Licence has not been revoked and no complaints about him or his company have been recorded.
> 
> Latest figures for the Spectrum Live Capital Management Fund have just been released. In the first six months of its existence it has attracted approximately $23 million from investors and the return for the first six months has been running at the rate of approximately 15 % p.a.
> 
> These are the facts. Can you handle them? Probably not. No matter, though, just because some of you cannot handle the truth, it doesn't alter the fact that thousands of people have placed their trust in Daniel and are, apparently, quite happy with the return on their investments.




Where do you get these figures from? I can't seem to find it from the site or any fund tracker like morningstar


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Only yesterday I checked the ASIC website for any news about Daniel Kertcher. There was nothing, either good or bad. His Australian Financial Services Licence has not been revoked and no complaints about him or his company have been recorded.
> 
> Latest figures for the Spectrum Live Capital Management Fund have just been released. In the first six months of its existence it has attracted approximately $23 million from investors and the return for the first six months has been running at the rate of approximately 15 % p.a.
> 
> These are the facts. Can you handle them? Probably not. No matter, though, just because some of you cannot handle the truth, it doesn't alter the fact that thousands of people have placed their trust in Daniel and are, apparently, quite happy with the return on their investments.





welcome back

great to know you're checking asic for any daniel kertcher asic news. you check daily or  was yesterday just an anomaly?

those 15% pa over 6 months facts look wonderful. BUT on the 4th November (post #485) you posted

_ "the name of the fund is Spectrum Live Capital Management. In the first three months (for which complete figures are available) the unit price increased by 4.7 % which equates to an annual rate of 18.8 % p.a_. 

*this is why you cannot measure or market a fund's performance in such a short period of time*. 
hopefully next month it's not down to 11.2% 

i made a 400% return on a forex position in one month, which equates to an annual rate of over 5,000% p.a... join my fund it's called the EXCELLENT fund
plus maybe your 'defying-mathematics' options writing (where you haven't had a loss in years!) looks like a better investment 
 .
facts alvin?
- platinum pursuits growth plus hedge fund;
- high-pressure marketing;
- spectrum live which trading pursuits invites to each live event to sign up would-be investors. the brokerage rates look LAUGHABLE! care to share the connection between spectrum live and trading pursuits?
- ANY of the links previously posted. they're posted and you click on them to visit.

so alvin, you've clarified that you're not an employee of trading pursuits.. but what about another position?   
or you're just getting discounted brokerage?

it's quite odd knowing that somebody who is just a customer would go to such extremes defending both a person and company for now almost a year on an online forum


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Where do you get these figures from? I can't seem to find it from the site or any fund tracker like morningstar




Dear skyQuake,

I get these figures directly from Trading Pursuits. As you probably know, Daniel is of the opinion that an investor should have a basic understanding of trading and that is why he will except moneys for investing in the Fund only from students of Trading Pursuits. Both Pure Silk and I are students of Trading Pursuit, so we both have access to the results and I'm sure that Pure Silk will happily confirm the figure of 15 % p.a. for the first six months.

I am fully aware that there is a risk in extrapolating a six months result to a full year, but in the absence of further date, that is all we've got. A six months performance is better than just three months, but very soon we will have the results for the first 9 months and by the End of April we will have a full year's performance figures.

It is easy to understand why Daniel has chosen a very conservative approach. The general public often expects miracles as has again been shown recently by the scandal with a horse betting syndicate. Membership in the syndicate was open to the general public who were told that their money would double in 12 months. $200 million was subscribed to the syndicate and guess what? Those $200 million have gone missing and nobody knows where they went. I believe the authorities are now investigating.

Although I am eligible to invest in the Spectrum Live Capital Management Fund, I have not done so, and am unlikely to do so in the future, since I can achieve much better results by doing my own trading. By combining what I learned from Daniel's course with the wisdom conveyed to me from those books wayneL had recommended to me, I have been able to improve my returns markedly and I am looking to 2014 with great confidence and expect to make returns well in excess of 30 % p.a.

I understand that Joe has by know confirmed all of Pure Silk's results. I certainly couldn't find any fault with Pure Silk's figures.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> welcome back
> 
> great to know you're checking asic for any daniel kertcher asic news. you check daily or  was yesterday just an anomaly?
> 
> those 15% pa over 6 months facts look wonderful. BUT on the 4th November (post #485) you posted
> 
> _ "the name of the fund is Spectrum Live Capital Management. In the first three months (for which complete figures are available) the unit price increased by 4.7 % which equates to an annual rate of 18.8 % p.a_.
> 
> *this is why you cannot measure or market a fund's performance in such a short period of time*.
> hopefully next month it's not down to 11.2%
> 
> i made a 400% return on a forex position in one month, which equates to an annual rate of over 5,000% p.a... join my fund it's called the EXCELLENT fund
> plus maybe your 'defying-mathematics' options writing (where you haven't had a loss in years!) looks like a better investment
> .
> facts alvin?
> - platinum pursuits growth plus hedge fund;
> - high-pressure marketing;
> - spectrum live which trading pursuits invites to each live event to sign up would-be investors. the brokerage rates look LAUGHABLE! care to share the connection between spectrum live and trading pursuits?
> - ANY of the links previously posted. they're posted and you click on them to visit.
> 
> so alvin, you've clarified that you're not an employee of trading pursuits.. but what about another position?
> or you're just getting discounted brokerage?
> 
> it's quite odd knowing that somebody who is just a customer would go to such extremes defending both a person and company for now almost a year on an online forum




No, I don't check the ASIC website daily (why would I?), but when I do check, I never find any complaint about Daniel Kertcher.

Yes, I know what I posted on November 4. At that time we only had the result for three months. Now we have a 6 months result, and very soon we'll have a 9 months result and by the end of April we will have a full year's result. Btw, your comment about a 400 % return is totally irrelevant and I won't even dignify it with further comment.

My options writing is as successful as it has ever been and while it is true that I have never had a losing month, I have had many trades that went against me. But with the correct risk management techniques, as taught by Daniel in his courses, one can mitigate potential losses and still end up with a profit by the end of the month.

High pressure marketing? I have certainly never experienced that from Daniel or any of his  staff.

Connection between Spectrum Live and Trading Pursuits? I just know that TP uses SL as their broker. I don't use SL myself, I prefer IG Markets.

I am glad that at long last you understand that I am not an employee of Daniel's, I am also not "Daniel". And I don't get any special brokerage rates.

I was invited to this forum and asked to share my experience. That's just what I have done. If that meant defending Daniel from time to time, so be it. I felt that some of the mindless attacks on Daniel were totally unwarranted and I simply stated that my experience was a positive one.

Just one example of a mindless attack: In November, after I had posted the result of the SLCMF for the first three months, someone on this forum "predicted"  that the next three months' return would be "negative" Well, the fact it that it was not negative, and from what I can see so far, the current three months period will also be positive. So, I'd suggest, we all wait until the end of January, or even better, the end of April, when we'll have a whole year's result.

Will I keep defending Daniel in future? If I feel that the attacks made on him are totally unwarranted, yes, of  course, I will. Should he ever lose his Australian Financial Services Licence, then I'll have to reconsider my position.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Where do you get these figures from? I can't seem to find it from the site or any fund tracker like morningstar




skyQuake, try www.slcm.com.au, then click on the sample report tab. I believe the report displayed is the actual Sept report (6 months), there is also a 22 minute video of DK explaining in vivid and comprehensive detail, all aspects of the report.


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> No, I don't check the ASIC website daily (why would I?), but when I do check, I never find any complaint about Daniel Kertcher.




because you stated in your first response that you checked the asic website for daniel kertcher yesterday...i guess just a coincidence that you checked it yesterday, better to be safe hey 



Alvin Purple said:


> Yes, I know what I posted on November 4. At that time we only had the result for three months. Now we have a 6 months result, and very soon we'll have a 9 months result and by the end of April we will have a full year's result. Btw, your comment about a 400 % return is totally irrelevant and I won't even dignify it with further comment.




my comment about my 400% one-month return is as irrelevant as you previously bragging about a quarterly return.



Alvin Purple said:


> My options writing is as successful as it has ever been and while it is true that I have never had a losing month, I have had many trades that went against me. But with the correct risk management techniques, as taught by Daniel in his courses, one can mitigate potential losses and still end up with a profit by the end of the month.




in the entire time (3-years) you've claimed to be without a losing month, following trading pursuits (who also would obviously use the same risk management techniques as they taught to you), is it true or untrue that trading pursuits have had *losing *months in this same period? 

your deliberate loose wording about mitigating potential losses and only ending up with profits at the end of the month is very misleading and you've aimed to do so deliberately. 



Alvin Purple said:


> High pressure marketing? I have certainly never experienced that from Daniel or any of his  staff.




are you a subscriber to trading pursuits? if you receive 5 different emails from the same company within a 24-hour advising registration closing soon, limited seats remaining, last chance (all the usual crap) what type of marketing is this considered? also you've attended their live conferences..



Alvin Purple said:


> Connection between Spectrum Live and Trading Pursuits? I just know that TP uses SL as their broker. I don't use SL myself, I prefer IG Markets.




TP uses SL as their broker because SL is *literally* a TP-associated broker. they are based in the same office. what a way to make money! receive attendee course fees, upsell advanced courses, sign up attendees to the recommended 'broker' SL at the live events -recipe for a money making machine. daniel made his money as a successful trader right?



Alvin Purple said:


> I am glad that at long last you understand that I am not an employee of Daniel's, I am also not "Daniel". And I don't get any special brokerage rates.




not an employee, not daniel, somebody else within the organisation or associated? maybe you look similar to alvin purple...?



Alvin Purple said:


> I was invited to this forum and asked to share my experience. That's just what I have done. If that meant defending Daniel from time to time, so be it. I felt that some of the mindless attacks on Daniel were totally unwarranted and I simply stated that my experience was a positive one.




and alvin who invited/asked you to share your experiences? understandably don't expect any name's listed online..but in whose best interests is it to invite you to this forum and share your clearly positive experience? did trading pursuits ask you alvin?



Alvin Purple said:


> Just one example of a mindless attack: In November, after I had posted the result of the SLCMF for the first three months, someone on this forum "predicted"  that the next three months' return would be "negative" Well, the fact it that it was not negative, and from what I can see so far, the current three months period will also be positive. So, I'd suggest, we all wait until the end of January, or even better, the end of April, when we'll have a whole year's result.




wait for what exactly? to pass judgment on daniel kertcher's approach to entice more baby boombers to pay thousands of dollars in course sign ups fees, to be 'educated' and to gain the opportunity to invest in the SLCM fund with a 1-year history..i haven't predicted anything or won't make any judgment but hope that investors can this time actually get roi



Alvin Purple said:


> Will I keep defending Daniel in future? If I feel that the attacks made on him are totally unwarranted, yes, of  course, I will. Should he ever lose his Australian Financial Services Licence, then I'll have to reconsider my position.




unwarranted? have you read any of the feedback or history about this guy? and you think people are 'attacking' him for no reason? throughout this thread you've been caught lying, have regularly posted retrospective trades and defended for months Daniel because you feel attacks on him are unwarranted. 

when a company charges thousands of dollars in course fees, upsells for many advanced courses at all events, practices live event NLP marketing, signs attendees up to 'brokers' who are really directly affiliated with them (Spectrum Live) that offer highly noncompetitive rates (not obvious to new would-be traders), recommends trading software worth hundreds of dollars to new attendees, charges hundreds of dollars p.a for monthly trade reports etc. not to mention the previous platinum pursuits growth plus hedge fund..some people might consider these reasons to be warranted


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> because you stated in your first response that you checked the asic website for daniel kertcher yesterday...i guess just a coincidence that you checked it yesterday, better to be safe hey
> 
> 
> 
> my comment about my 400% one-month return is as irrelevant as you previously bragging about a quarterly return.
> 
> 
> 
> in the entire time (3-years) you've claimed to be without a losing month, following trading pursuits (who also would obviously use the same risk management techniques as they taught to you), is it true or untrue that trading pursuits have had *losing *months in this same period?
> 
> your deliberate loose wording about mitigating potential losses and only ending up with profits at the end of the month is very misleading and you've aimed to do so deliberately.
> 
> 
> 
> are you a subscriber to trading pursuits? if you receive 5 different emails from the same company within a 24-hour advising registration closing soon, limited seats remaining, last chance (all the usual crap) what type of marketing is this considered? also you've attended their live conferences..
> 
> 
> 
> TP uses SL as their broker because SL is *literally* a TP-associated broker. they are based in the same office. what a way to make money! receive attendee course fees, upsell advanced courses, sign up attendees to the recommended 'broker' SL at the live events -recipe for a money making machine. daniel made his money as a successful trader right?
> 
> 
> 
> not an employee, not daniel, somebody else within the organisation or associated? maybe you look similar to alvin purple...?
> 
> 
> 
> and alvin who invited/asked you to share your experiences? understandably don't expect any name's listed online..but in whose best interests is it to invite you to this forum and share your clearly positive experience? did trading pursuits ask you alvin?
> 
> 
> 
> wait for what exactly? to pass judgment on daniel kertcher's approach to entice more baby boombers to pay thousands of dollars in course sign ups fees, to be 'educated' and to gain the opportunity to invest in the SLCM fund with a 1-year history..i haven't predicted anything or won't make any judgment but hope that investors can this time actually get roi
> 
> 
> 
> unwarranted? have you read any of the feedback or history about this guy? and you think people are 'attacking' him for no reason? throughout this thread you've been caught lying, have regularly posted retrospective trades and defended for months Daniel because you feel attacks on him are unwarranted.
> 
> when a company charges thousands of dollars in course fees, upsells for many advanced courses at all events, practices live event NLP marketing, signs attendees up to 'brokers' who are really directly affiliated with them (Spectrum Live) that offer highly noncompetitive rates (not obvious to new would-be traders), recommends trading software worth hundreds of dollars to new attendees, charges hundreds of dollars p.a for monthly trade reports etc. not to mention the previous platinum pursuits growth plus hedge fund..some people might consider these reasons to be warranted




Ha! Ha!


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

As I have said before, anyone who still chooses to put money into this after reading this thread pretty much deserves to lose their money.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> As I have said before, anyone who still chooses to put money into this after reading this thread pretty much deserves to lose their money.




That about sizes it up.... +1


----------



## wombat40

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Whats so special about this site...half of it is bull**** anyway


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wombat40 said:


> Whats so special about this site...half of it is bull**** anyway




Maybe, maybe not. But it's free to come here, it doesn't cost several thousand for the bullsh*t.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wombat40 said:


> Whats so special about this site...half of it is bull**** anyway




funny when members that post have that to say.

this site is one of the best one's in regards to low levels of Bull%$t


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Ha! Ha!




haha Alvin that was my response when I saw this video.. namely how he says he isn't presenting to teach about options & CFDs or how to make money in the stockmarket BUT how to build a financially abundant mentality ROFLMAO

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x80ije_unleash-stock-market-cfd-rsquo-s-nd_school


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well may you laugh, but building a financially abundant mentality is exactly what Daniel has done for me. 

What I have learned from Daniel, combined with the knowledge found in the books recommended to me by wayneL, has enabled me to find my own trades.

Pure Silk has proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that Daniel's system works. So, for a reasonable person the argument has been settled.

However, I also know that some of you will never be convinced because you just cannot stomach the fact that you have been wrong about Daniel all along.

Therefore, my future responses to anything that's posted here may be curt and may even get curter. Unless I feel a longer response is warranted, of  course.


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

‘alvin’ you’ve stated within this thread that you learnt trading from Daniel Kertcher three years ago.
you’ve also claimed that you haven’t had a losing month using any of the techniques that Daniel Kertcher taught you. 

*PureSilk *as a member of the Trading Pursuits Monthly Income Report (and since Alvin hasn’t provided any evidence in the form of broker statements to support his stated returns), could you please confirm or deny if Trading Pursuits have had a losing month over the past 3-4 years since Alvin learnt from them? 
this will give everybody who chances upon this forum a true insight into whether Alvin's claims are legitimate or just 'a big load of hot air'.


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Pure Silk has proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that Daniel's system works. So, for a reasonable person the argument has been settled.




no argument has been settled. the title of the thread is 'Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits -Serious or Scam?'

according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a scam is: '_a dishonest way to make money by deceiving people_'
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam?show=0&t=1387003621

alvin, is it true that the director of trading pursuits is also the director of spectrum live (trading pursuits' _recommended_ broker)? would all trading pursuits students be fully aware of this fact when signing up to the 'preferred' broker?
again brokerage rates are here http://www.spectrumlive.com/brokerage-rates -look at those fx spreads


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What I have learned from Daniel, combined with the knowledge found in the books recommended to me by wayneL, has enabled me to find my own trades.



I will order the frankincense & myrrh immediately.  



> Pure Silk has proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that Daniel's system works.



Incorrect.

Pure Silk has proved good faith, which you have never proved to show. He has proved that a delta+ system makes money in a bull market (duh!). He has proved that the system has negative months (even in a bull market). What he has not proven, is the robustness of the system in all market phases, what happens in a bear market.

Being highly leveraged and gamma-... well let's just say many of us have seen these sort of systems go down in flames before.



> So, for a reasonable person the argument has been settled.



As I have just illustrated, a reasonable person would never settle on six months of bull market results, such a person would more likely be an imbecile.



> However, I also know that some of you will never be convinced because you just cannot stomach the fact that you have been wrong about Daniel all along.



Uhhh no!

We have been right all along. The system is what it is, but risks, rewards and probabilities of success misrepresented.



> Therefore, my future responses to anything that's posted here may be curt and may even get curter. Unless I feel a longer response is warranted, of  course.




He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> ‘alvin’ you’ve stated within this thread that you learnt trading from Daniel Kertcher three years ago.
> you’ve also claimed that you haven’t had a losing month using any of the techniques that Daniel Kertcher taught you.
> 
> *PureSilk *as a member of the Trading Pursuits Monthly Income Report (and since Alvin hasn’t provided any evidence in the form of broker statements to support his stated returns), could you please confirm or deny if Trading Pursuits have had a losing month over the past 3-4 years since Alvin learnt from them?
> this will give everybody who chances upon this forum a true insight into whether Alvin's claims are legitimate or just 'a big load of hot air'.




Refer to my post #550, I have attached 5 months of trading results, October was a losing month (my personal experience). Clarification - I only trade the trade ideas from just one report, the Income Plus report. TP has 4 reports in total (I believe), I  have not familiarized myself with the results of the rest of them.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

The gist of all this seems to be that most of you are accusing Daniel Kertcher of misrepresentation. Some of you are just implying it, but some of you have used the actual word.

Now, under Australian Law, misrepresentation is a serious offence, and particularly so in the financial world.

I understand that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but that's all we've got. There is no more powerful authority than that at this time in Australia.

For all its shortcomings (being underfunded and understaffed), ASIC has successfully prosecuted and sent to jail a number of persons. The charges were "obtaining financial advantage by deception" and "misrepresentation" (here is that word again).

I know for a fact that ASIC monitors Daniel and his company very closely. They send officials to his seminars and workshops and are always on the lookout for any breaches that could lead to a suspension of his Australian Financial Services Licence. Since his AFSL has never been pulled, ASIC must be happy with his conduct.

Notwithstanding your comments about "high pressure marketing", nobody is forced to attend his courses. I have spoken to many people who have attended, and not one of them has mentioned that they were there against their will.

Pure Silk has proved that even with the occasional losing month, Daniel's system can still show a very good overall return. The reason that I have never had a losing month is because I am more conservative. Unless a trade ticks all the boxes, I won't even enter it. That is why my returns are lower (at 30 % p.a.) than Pure Silk's, but I can live with that. However, with the additional knowledge I have gained from those books recommended by wayneL, I expect to make higher returns in 2014.

If we apply the "reasonable person test" to these facts, the answer to the basic question of this thread whether Daniel Kertcher is a "scam" is clear: Daniel Kertcher is not a scam. Because if he were a scam, he would have been closed down and sent to jail by ASIC a long time ago.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> If we apply the "reasonable person test" to these facts, the answer to the basic question of this thread whether Daniel Kertcher is a "scam" is clear: Daniel Kertcher is not a scam. Because if he were a scam, he would have been closed down and sent to jail by ASIC a long time ago.




So are you implying that no scams exist in general because they are all caught by the authorities?


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> The gist of all this seems to be that most of you are accusing Daniel Kertcher of misrepresentation. Some of you are just implying it, but some of you have used the actual word.
> 
> Now, under Australian Law, misrepresentation is a serious offence, and particularly so in the financial world.
> 
> I understand that some of you don't think much of ASIC, but that's all we've got. There is no more powerful authority than that at this time in Australia.
> 
> For all its shortcomings (being underfunded and understaffed), ASIC has successfully prosecuted and sent to jail a number of persons. The charges were "obtaining financial advantage by deception" and "misrepresentation" (here is that word again).
> 
> I know for a fact that ASIC monitors Daniel and his company very closely. They send officials to his seminars and workshops and are always on the lookout for any breaches that could lead to a suspension of his Australian Financial Services Licence. Since his AFSL has never been pulled, ASIC must be happy with his conduct.
> 
> Notwithstanding your comments about "high pressure marketing", nobody is forced to attend his courses. I have spoken to many people who have attended, and not one of them has mentioned that they were there against their will.
> 
> Pure Silk has proved that even with the occasional losing month, Daniel's system can still show a very good overall return. The reason that I have never had a losing month is because I am more conservative. Unless a trade ticks all the boxes, I won't even enter it. That is why my returns are lower (at 30 % p.a.) than Pure Silk's, but I can live with that. However, with the additional knowledge I have gained from those books recommended by wayneL, I expect to make higher returns in 2014.
> 
> If we apply the "reasonable person test" to these facts, the answer to the basic question of this thread whether Daniel Kertcher is a "scam" is clear: Daniel Kertcher is not a scam. Because if he were a scam, he would have been closed down and sent to jail by ASIC a long time ago.




Agreed.

The title of this thread is no longer relevant and hasn't been for quite some time.

It's obvious that Daniel Kertcher is not a scam. That doesn't even really make any sense. 

Viable/profitable over the long term and offering strategies to suit all market conditions?

Time will tell.

Hopefully you guys (DK's members) don't get too discouraged and keep posting your trades and results.

It's been really interesting to hear the experienced members of ASF really drill down into the mechanics and real risks of some of the trades already posted. Please keep doing so.

Good luck in 2014 and keep posting!


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Both the latest fund and one of its members with verified results have < 1 year track record. Also I can't find any results for Platinum Pursuits Growth Hedge Fund anymore.

Another way to view this is, would you trust a trader working at an IB (let's say they work on the prop desk) with only 6 months experience, with your money?


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Both the latest fund and one of its members with verified results have < 1 year track record. Also I can't find any results for Platinum Pursuits Growth Hedge Fund anymore.
> 
> Another way to view this is, would you trust a trader working at an IB (let's say they work on the prop desk) with only 6 months experience, with your money?





Well said, Mazza. 

 If people are going to throw their money at anything like this, then sensible money management should be used and only risk a percentage of their money given there are no guarantees in trading. They need to fully understand the risk they are taking on.

There is a thread here on Storm Financial which shows how much people can be hurt when they take on too much risk and things don't go according to plan.

Just my 

PS - your inbox is full...lol


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I know for a fact that ASIC monitors Daniel and his company very closely. They send officials to his seminars and workshops and are always on the lookout for any breaches that could lead to a suspension of his Australian Financial Services Licence.




1/ If ASIC is so underfunded, why do you think hey monitor DK so closely?

2/ How is it that you "*know for a fact*" that DK is monitored so closely? 



> Since his AFSL has never been pulled, ASIC must be happy with his conduct.




Not having the legal justification for pulling his license is not necessarilycongruous with being happy with his conduct, as the "fact" of him being closely monitored indicates.

It would indicated to me they have concerns, as most here do.


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Notwithstanding your comments about "high pressure marketing", nobody is forced to attend his courses. I have spoken to many people who have attended, and not one of them has mentioned that they were there against their will.




lmao obviously not against their will as this would be hostage taking. 



alvin 2 simple questions since you have a habit of avoiding..
- who invited you to this forum to share your positive experiences with daniel kertcher & trading pursuits?
- since you are obviously familiar with trading pursuits, is the director of spectrum live also the director of trading pursuits?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



prawn_86 said:


> So are you implying that no scams exist in general because they are all caught by the authorities?




Why do I sometimes get the feeling I am talking to 5 year old kindergarten kids?

I am implying no such thing. Scams do still exist, but they are all exposed eventually. If not by ASIC, then by our friends in the media.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Both the latest fund and one of its members with verified results have < 1 year track record. Also I can't find any results for Platinum Pursuits Growth Hedge Fund anymore.
> 
> Another way to view this is, would you trust a trader working at an IB (let's say they work on the prop desk) with only 6 months experience, with your money?




The reason there is less than one year's results available is the simple fact that the fund has only been running since April. After 6 months it showed a return at the rate of 15 % p.a.

Daniel Kertcher has a bit more than 6 months experience at the prop desk. He has been trading for about 15 years. One of his chief traders has 30 years experience and used to be Head of Trading in of of Australia's largest banks.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> 1/ If ASIC is so underfunded, why do you think hey monitor DK so closely?
> 
> 2/ How is it that you "*know for a fact*" that DK is monitored so closely?
> 
> 
> 
> Not having the legal justification for pulling his license is not necessarilycongruous with being happy with his conduct, as the "fact" of him being closely monitored indicates.
> 
> It would indicated to me they have concerns, as most here do.




ASIC monitors Daniel (and all so-called "wealth educators") because that is what they do. It is their  job.

I know a fair bit about the workings of ASIC because I was once called as a material witness by ASIC in a fraud case they were prosecuting. For several months I worked closely with ASIC officers.  My testimony and that of others led to a conviction and a five year jail sentence for the perpetrator.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> lmao obviously not against their will as this would be hostage taking.
> 
> 
> 
> alvin 2 simple questions since you have a habit of avoiding..
> - who invited you to this forum to share your positive experiences with daniel kertcher & trading pursuits?
> - since you are obviously familiar with trading pursuits, is the director of spectrum live also the director of trading pursuits?




I was invited to this forum by a good friend of mine. She thought I might learn something by coming here, and she was right.

I am familiar with trading pursuits, but I don't use spectrum live as my broker. It is quite possible that a director of spectrum live is also a director of trading pursuits. 

This is not an unusual situation in Australia. There are thousands of directors in Australia who sit on more than one board, sometimes as many as 5 or 6. Are you not aware that many retired politicians, for instance,  often end up as directors on several company boards?


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

good laugh before falling asleep..alvin you'd be good in this role if you were to apply  (http://www.seek.com.au/job/25621910)



Alvin Purple said:


> I was invited to this forum by a good friend of mine. She thought I might learn something by coming here, and she was right.



i would have thought over the past few years that you would have learnt the pitfalls of the strategy you're trying so desperately to defend...no losing months, downside protection.. how did the current Trading Pursuits' recommended _Anadarko Petroleum_ trade go Alvin? PureSilk?



Alvin Purple said:


> I am familiar with trading pursuits, but I don't use spectrum live as my broker. It is quite possible that a director of spectrum live is also a director of trading pursuits.



spectrum live charge laughable brokerage and horrible spreads. also, it's more than possible that a director of spectrum live is also a director of trading pursuits...it's a *sure * thing



Alvin Purple said:


> This is not an unusual situation in Australia. There are thousands of directors in Australia who sit on more than one board, sometimes as many as 5 or 6. Are you not aware that many retired politicians, for instance,  often end up as directors on several company boards?



of course it's not unusual. however when you pay THOUSANDS of dollars per person for a education course over a weekend you would think the hosts would be content with this massive revenue (you've outlined in an earlier post how much daniel earns holding weekend seminars). but to then find out that the director of spectrum live is also the director of trading pursuits AND offering appalling spreads on fx etc. to baby boomers that have never traded before..and attendees sign up at each seminar


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> how did the current Trading Pursuits' recommended _Anadarko Petroleum_ trade go Alvin? PureSilk?




All will be revealed when I post my December results this weekend.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Why do I sometimes get the feeling I am talking to 5 year old kindergarten kids?
> 
> I am implying no such thing. Scams do still exist, but they are all exposed eventually. If not by ASIC, then by our friends in the media.




So the previous media articles linked in this thread do not constitute exposing a scam in your opinion?



Alvin Purple said:


> The reason there is less than one year's results available is the simple fact that the fund has only been running since April. After 6 months it showed a return at the rate of 15 % p.a.
> 
> Daniel Kertcher has a bit more than 6 months experience at the prop desk. He has been trading for about 15 years. One of his chief traders has 30 years experience and used to be Head of Trading in of of Australia's largest banks.




If Daniel has so much experience, why are there no funds with more than 6 moths of results available? Any fund manager worth his salt would have years worth of continuous results, and would not claim a pa % figure based on a few months of results


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



sails said:


> PS - your inbox is full...lol




Haha, sorry sails! I've cleared that up now, its been so long I didn't even realise it was full 



Alvin Purple said:


> Daniel Kertcher has a bit more than 6 months experience at the prop desk. He has been trading for about 15 years. One of his chief traders has 30 years experience and used to be Head of Trading in of of Australia's largest banks.




I started out as a quant at an IB, so interested to know who this Chief Trader you speak of is. I can only think of one reason why someone with that level of experience would be involved in selling otm gamma, and the reason isn't good.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=120_329_240&juris=9&hdtext=ARSN&srchsrc=1

Name 	PURSUING ALPHA FUND
ARSN: 120 329 240
Former Name(s) 	BRIDGE-WAY CAPITAL AUSTRALIAN EQUITY FUND
	KPI GLOBAL MACRO FUND
	MASTERING WEALTH PERFORMANCE FUND
	MASTERING WEALTH GROWTH FUND
*PLATINUM PURSUITS GROWTH PLUS HEDGE FUND*
	HALIFAX DERIVATIVE PREMIER FUND

Quite a few incarnations eh?

http://www.amhonline.com.au/kpiglobal/
http://www.amhonline.com.au/mwunitprice/
http://www.amhonline.com.au/ppunitprice/


KPI Global Macro Fund : Went from $1 to $0.719
Mastering Wealth Perfomrance Fund: Went from $1 to $0.574
Mastering Wealth Growth Fund : Went from $1 to $0.095 (ouch!)


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> Yes, and let's not forget sitting politicians are required to disclose any interest. Including husbands and wifes for example.





And your point is?  I said  RETIRED politicians.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> A $100,000 investment in a Platinum Pursuits seminar mid 2007 (minimum was $50k) ended up $5700 by December 2010.
> 
> An astounding 94% loss to investors and their families.




I wonder where the "guaranteed stop loss" went. They can invite Alvin to trade for them as he hasn't had a losing month in years. Quite the opposite of Daniel's funds performance, month after month lose.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> BTW, APC was a naked put. I never deal in naked puts, because that really would be picking up pennies in front of a moving steamroller. As you ought to know, I deal mainly with covered calls (a lot safer).




Covered calls a lot safer than naked put ? You've gotta be kidding me..where did you learn the basics ? Let me guess..from Daniel ?? 

By the way still waiting for your response on the results of past few funds of Daniel's. Do you think he should be allowed to educate people when he keeps returning negative returns and then creates a new fund to erase past ?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

minwa, if you don't know that covered calls are a lot safer than naked puts, then you have a lot to learn. I did not say they are 100 % safe, but they are definitely safer than naked puts (and for that matter naked calls), but with the right technique they can be made even safer. Even the skeptics on this forum (and there are a few) will admit that covered calls are safer (by definition) than naked puts or naked calls.

I would not give Daniel my money to invest, because I can do better myself than the 15 % p.a. his fund is returning currently.

In a few days Pure Silk will show us his results for his December trades. I would say that some of his naked calls (if he took them) will show substantial losses, while his covered calls (if he took them) will most likely show a profit.

I took only covered calls this month. One of them got stopped out, but all the others will show a profit when the calls expire tomorrow morning.


----------



## mazzatelli

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.

I doubt you read any of the books WayneL recommended, since that will be the first thing you learn.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.




Shows how much Daniels course actually 'teaches' then doesn't it


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.
> 
> I doubt you read any of the books WayneL recommended, since that will be the first thing you learn.




It must be groundhog day... We've been through this with Alvin on this thread, and covered it a million times in other threads.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



mazzatelli said:


> Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.
> 
> I doubt you read any of the books WayneL recommended, since that will be the first thing you learn.




Yes, I read that, but I don't agree. 

With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.

With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection and with a stop loss in the right place you can significantly reduce your risk.

Both the naked put and the covered call rely on the share price staying above the strike price, but that is where the similarity ends.

In any case, covered calls have made me a lot of money over the years and I know I'll stick with them.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yes, I read that, but I don't agree.
> 
> With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.
> 
> With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection




Let's leave aside stop losses for a moment, can you please explain how a covered call has more downside protection that a short put?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, considering that you have now become an authority on options pricing, can you please explain the put-call equation as it relates to short puts and their corresponding covered call.

In particular, can you detail how the put-call parity equation is suspended in this particular instance.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.

In the monthly options cycle just completed, for instance, I used covered calls on AAPL on many occasions, both for weekly and monthly options. As you can see from the AAPL chart, all those trades were profitable, while some naked puts would not have been.

I have just checked my broker's account and the money is already in there. I am now getting ready for next week's trades and I think I might have a bit of TSLA.


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.
> 
> In the monthly options cycle just completed, for instance, I used covered calls on AAPL on many occasions, both for weekly and monthly options. As you can see from the AAPL chart, all those trades were profitable, while some naked puts would not have been.
> 
> I have just checked my broker's account and the money is already in there. I am now getting ready for next week's trades and I think I might have a bit of TSLA.




Please stop embarrassing yourself and read the following.

http://www.futuresmag.com/2010/05/01/naked-put-vs-covered-call-whats-riskier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covered_call

You're just paying extra comm with the stock component!


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.




Ahem, anyone who deals in options ought to know basic options theory, in this instance put-call parity and synthetics. As such they would know that you are talking out of your hat.

Let's take a hypothetical example (we can take a real example with real prices, but will have to be done during market hours): 

Stock is trading at $59.50

55 dec call is trading at 4.98/5.02 bid/ask

55 dec put is trading at .48/.52 bid/ask



wayneL said:


> Let's leave aside stop losses for a moment, can you please explain how a covered call has more downside protection that a short put?






wayneL said:


> ...can you please explain the put-call equation as it relates to short puts and their corresponding covered call.
> 
> In particular, can you detail how the put-call parity equation is suspended in this particular instance.




Using the above example, can you please answer my questions which I have quoted for your your convenience.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

You may be finding it hard to take in what the others are telling you because of the tone this discussion has taken but take it from me, you are indeed very wrong in this instance.

A covered call is indeed a synthetic of a naked short put. The only difference being the transaction costs really. A covered call costs more in brokerage because you have to (a) buy the stock and (b) write the call instead of just selling the put. The risks are the same. 



Alvin Purple said:


> With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.




This is also incorrect. Your downside is limited to the price of the stock. A stock can only go to zero, therefore your risk is limited to the amount of stock you have sold puts for. 

Selling a naked call (not put) has unlimited risk as a stock could theoretically go to infinity... Plus transaction costs! 

You need to review the material. You really should understand these basics by now.


----------



## ROE

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Yes, I read that, but I don't agree.
> 
> With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.
> 
> With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection and with a stop loss in the right place you can significantly reduce your risk.




naked put you limited to the stock going down to zero, it is not unlimited  ....
naked put 10 contracts of WOW ..your maximum loss will be 1000 x strike price, it is not unlimited... 

and what about covered call potential unlimited loss to the upside?
you covered call stock $10 strike, what if it jump to $20 ? $30? $100? that unlimited loss to the upside


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.




Post that up on any other options forum of your choice. If most other unbiased people (on other forum) agree with you then everyone here will admit we are fools and apologise to you. If not, then you admit you do not know the basics of options. 

Dare to back your words and prove everyone here wrong ? I will even make a post on another forum of your choice if you are lazy, just let me know which forum. A few come to mind - bigmiketrading, trade2win, elitetrader...

Take your pick or stop making a fool out of yourself and Daniel.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> Dare to back your words and prove everyone here wrong ? I will even make a post on another forum of your choice if you are lazy, just let me know which forum. A few come to mind - bigmiketrading, trade2win, elitetrader...




We don't need no stinkin' overseas fora. We have all the gurus we need right here on ASF.

But we don't even really need gurus, just some fairly basic arithmetic, which I am quite prepared to post up... but I just gotta see Alvin prove the option pricing models wrong first. That will be entertainment plus.



> ...stop making a fool out of yourself and Daniel.




"Too late!" she cried.


----------



## sails

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Just a thought - Alvin are you talking about assignment risk of a naked put compared to a covered call?

Or is it that your cfd provider won't allow a guaranteed stop loss on the naked put? But then surely you could buy your own long put for protection. 

Or a combination of both the above?

Very strange... Perhaps You could explain what you perceive as the greater risk of a naked put vs a covered call.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

As promised, here are my December results. Joe has received statements and has confirmed all is OK.

Overall return on capital employed for 183 days is 13.82%, extrapolated over 365 days 27.57% (don't worry, this is meaningless-I know). I am disappointed with December, primarily due to the APC trade going belly up. Despite a number of other trades being closed off early with losses, overall result was going to be in the black until APC disappointed. TP should've filtered this for us in my opinion, (ie) avoid stocks with pending Legal action whose results may have a negative impact on the trade. The last 3 months trading has resulted in a net return of...mmm well about ZERO.

For ease of comparison, I will post my previous 5 months results immediately after this (maximum 5 file attachments per post allowed)

15 more trade ideas to be considered for January 2014 expiry.


----------



## Pure Silk

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Previous 5 months results.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks Pure Silk, your probity is appreciated.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

*bump*

Whither Alvin?

I cannot wait to see this financial alchemy.


----------



## TPI

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

With a naked put, if you have cash to fund the stock if you get exercised I believe it is called a "covered short put".

If you are happy to own the stock long-term, then this is not such a bad thing right?

Sure the price may continue to fall, but if it is doing so on short-term market sentiment rather than any fundamental changes to the business, then you just buy some more right?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



TPI said:


> With a naked put, if you have cash to fund the stock if you get exercised I believe it is called a "covered short put".



Cash covered put or cash secured put

You get assigned if you're short, not exercised.



> If you are happy to own the stock long-term, then this is not such a bad thing right?




It depends what your investing plan is. 



> Sure the price may continue to fall, but if it is doing so on short-term market sentiment rather than any fundamental changes to the business, then you just buy some more right?




If you want to play the averaging down game... there are pros and cons, but better your money than mine. ;-)


----------



## lael

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I posted a while back and commented that I would be back to post my experiences with TP. I haven't looked at the details clearly enough to comment completely ( I lost some money from mis-placed trades and then closing them out... position sizing... I forgot that a contract was 100shares and placed an order early on for 70 contracts... way too large for me atm). But generally - my Income account has done relatively poorly. Got smashed last month on APC as some of you noticed, and I think lost on another trade too. For the year my Income account is up around... $500.- lol. However, this has been offset by a recommendation Daniel made on TMV at the seminar and on the webinars TP runs, which has netted me around 3K (not closed yet... so could go up or down). So my Income account is currently up 3.5K on a base of 15K, but... only 500 is from the naked puts (no covered calls have been posted in the months I've been trading.) I haven't done the Income Plus course - so don't yet have access to the trades Pure Silk is posting. 

The Master course has been MUCH more lucrative. I tried trading some Forex myself after doing the course and made a few mistakes... some harsh, but good learning not to freak out when the trade idea is solid. Anyway... started with 45K, lost 12K and got back on board actually doing some of the recommended trades. My account is currently sitting at 61K - most of which is from Trading Pursuit's trades, some of which is from a eur/usd short I placed. Positions aren't closed out yet... so the final result is yet to be seen. 

I did the sums just tonight, which is what prompted me to come back and post - If I was to close out everything, I will have just broken even on my initial investment of capital and the course fees (so given opportunity cost I have lost money so far... but if I had followed more of the Forex trades recommended I would be well ahead). Without closing out the trades this doesn't mean much - but thought I would post to let you all know my experience. 

The thread went crazy while I was gone and I had trouble finding the books you were recommending WayneL - can you repost what you recommend on options trading? I'm curious to understand what you are talking about with synthetic naked puts etc. I don't know a lot - when you talk about shorting a put... do you mean writing the contract? (selling the put?). Overall I think I want to get gun at Forex, but very interested in Options. 

I'm planning on doing the Income Plus course TP offer in April. At this point I would strongly recommend the Master course with Forex... and I'll comment more about Income with more time trading the strategy. 

Cheers, 
Lael


----------



## Magda

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi guys, I,m back.

Having read every post on this thread I have come to the conclusion that none of you has made any money trading.

Even that clown Alvin Purple is just a lot of hot air.

I made the mistake of following his advice and bought  a lot of Tesla shares at $139.00, but they have gone up only to $72.00. What should I do now? Sell or hang on to them? It's abot $50,000 worth of shares.

Any advice will be much appreciated.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



			
				Magda said:
			
		

> Hi guys, I,m back.



No welcome back for you, no one missed you. Oh, just so happens for you to come back after Alvin dissappeared, no coincidence at all.



			
				Magda said:
			
		

> Having read every post on this thread I have come to the conclusion that none of you has made any money trading.



You're right. So don't waste your time here. The close button is top right corner of screen. Daniel Kertcher will be happy to take your money. Do check out the results of his past funds though.



			
				Magda said:
			
		

> Even that clown Alvin Purple is just a lot of hot air.



I don't disagree. Fabricating trades and dissappearing after being exposed.



			
				Magda said:
			
		

> I made the mistake of following his advice and bought  a lot of Tesla shares at $139.00, but they have gone up only to $72.00. What should I do now? Sell or hang on to them? It's abot $50,000 worth of shares.
> 
> Any advice will be much appreciated.




Best advice, learn some maths. $139 "gone up" to $72, your logic in maths is as good as Alvin's (pure coincidence there, again). Start with these, don't be shy to ask for help if you need. You can sell your imaginary shares and pay for the tuition. http://www.learninggamesforkids.com/kindergarten-math.html


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Magda said:


> Hi guys, I,m back.
> 
> Having read every post on this thread I have come to the conclusion that none of you has made any money trading.
> 
> Even that clown Alvin Purple is just a lot of hot air.
> 
> I made the mistake of following his advice and bought  a lot of Tesla shares at $139.00, but they have gone up only to $72.00. What should I do now? Sell or hang on to them? It's abot $50,000 worth of shares.
> 
> Any advice will be much appreciated.




Hi Magda,

good to see you are back, but you really must listen to what I say. When I said a few weeks ago that I was buying some Tesla shares I was also telling you privately to watch them go up and when they hit $170 to sell them. Well, they got to $172 (your $72 must be a misprint) and right now they are about $170.

So, Magda, SELL them now and you will make a profit of $31 per share. Then multiply that by the total number of shares you bought and you will know exactly how much profit you have made. Btw, I sold my 10,000 shares when they hit $171.00


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Btw, I sold my 10,000 shares when they hit $171.00




Care to show a broker statement to prove this hindsight trade?


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Oh and now Alvin's back, just as "Magda" posts. So many "coincidences" in this thread.

And he claims to have bought 10k shares which would've costed more than 1 million as TSLA is above 100.

www.profit.ly

Verify the trade there (you can do it on just that one trade) or own up that your trade was imaginary.

Do that and I will write a cheque of $1000 to a charity of your choice with the receipt posted here.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Magda, you can also do it, my challenge still stands. Prove your trade of $50 000 and I will write a $1000 cheque to charity.

Let's see between the err, "2 of you", if "either" of you took the real trade at the prices claimed instead of hindsight talking how much money you made.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I might have a bit of TSLA.




This is the last part of post #628 I made on December 21, 2013

As I said, I sold my Tesla shares  a few days ago when they hit $171.00

So, how can this be a "hindsight" trade?

Maybe it is in your world, but not in mine.

And no, I did not have to outlay one million dollars. You have probably never heard of CFDs, but you generally need only 10 % of the purchase price, the rest of it you borrow for a short while at very low interest rates.

By the way, here is another "hindsight" trade I will be doing tomorrow morning as soon as the market opens. I will be buying a large number of AAPL CFDs at about $554.00. Then I will just wait for AAPL to pop significantly, write way-out-of-the-money call options, collect a very juicy premium. S/L of course moves up with the share price. If the share price reaches the way-out-of-the-money strike price I will be forced to sell my shares at a huge profit and also keep the juicy premium. If the share price does not reach the strike price by expiry, I keep both, the premium and the increased share value.

Now when it's all over and I'll tell you how much I have made, you will no doubt call it a "hindsight" trade, although I have told you well before I placed the first trade.

Go figure.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Btw, I sold my 10,000 *shares* when they hit $171.00




Ah yes suddenly your "shares" becomes CFDs. Well regardless my challenge still stands, CFDs are verifiable so post it up or stay in your imaginary world.

I have never heard anyone use the word shares in replacement of CFD when they traded CFD contracts, only when they try to mislead people. 

I am still waiting for your or Magda's (say hi to him for me, he's just down the corridor from your office) trade verification. Your CFD trade or his $50k shares (perhaps they turn out to be CFDs as well ?).


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

OK, I got my 10000 CFDs of AAPL soon after the market opened at $548.10. S/L is set at $543.00.

Now I am off to bed. Night All!


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, I got my 10000 CFDs of AAPL soon after the market opened at $548.10. S/L is set at $543.00.
> 
> Now I am off to bed. Night All!




10 000 X 548 = 5.48 million

5.48 million X 0.10 = $548k required

Your account size seems very inconsistent with previous claims/trades, it scales up exponentially. Anyone can do that on a paper account.

Too scared to verify the trades because you don't have any real trades ?


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, I got my 10000 CFDs of AAPL soon after the market opened at $548.10. S/L is set at $543.00.
> 
> Now I am off to bed. Night All!




Now what?


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

$5 loss with 10k shares. Wiped out $50k in a few hours. On a leveraged account trading CFDs. Would suck, although it was just paper trades anyway.

Well done Alvin. Let's see what you come up with next.


----------



## Valued

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> $5 loss with 10k shares. Wiped out $50k in a few hours. On a leveraged account trading CFDs. Would suck, although it was just paper trades anyway.
> 
> Well done Alvin. Let's see what you come up with next.




His trades might not be real, but if they were and he was trading with 500k of CFDs for an interest of 5 million, if you assume someone did proper risk management, their trading account size would be quite large (you would think at least 20 million). In such a case 50k loss in one night would be negligible relative to the account. It would be like someone putting $500 on a CFD for a 10k exposure losing 50 bucks. Not a big deal. 

I would like to be at the point where 50k is the same as 50 bucks though


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Oops, I almost forgot. You probably also want to see how I bought the CFDs. Here it is:
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date:         19 AUG 2013
> Reference:    DIAAAASDRETWYT
> Size:         Buy 1000.0000 shares to open
> Market:       SanDisk Corp CFD
> Level:        54.83
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________





This was his past trade apparently. In 4 months he went from making trades with share value of $54 830 to $54 800 000. Very believable.

Getting stopped out in a few hours right after trade entry, very good (paper) trading system.


----------



## TheUnknown

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Lets assume alvins trade went into positive on the apple trade so same positive % as it went in negative, how much would he have profited? 54k?


----------



## skc

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> $5 loss with 10k shares. Wiped out $50k in a few hours. On a leveraged account trading CFDs. Would suck, although it was just paper trades anyway.
> 
> Well done Alvin. Let's see what you come up with next.




Alvin is such a great trade he never ever lose money, even on a paper trade.

He will come back and say something like he saw the intraday breakdown and moved his stop to breakeven. He also sold some options and collected the premium.

Don't you guys get it?! Alvin NEVER loses on any trade.

P.S. You might question the fact that he went to bed and couldn't have done that... but he only went to bed in "sim" as well.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Oh my, oh my, oh my.

This is gonna be fun.

Nearly all of you are totally wrong.

And because of that I will do what I normally don't. Usually I ignore posts that don't make sense or a factually wrong. But on this occasion I will make an exception and answer each post in turn. You see, ER date is not far away (January 27) and I am sure my position will be vindicated one way or another.

All my following posts are replies toy your posts. Here we go:


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Prepare to suspend reality folks

$0.02


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> 10 000 X 548 = 5.48 million
> 
> 5.48 million X 0.10 = $548k required
> 
> Your account size seems very inconsistent with previous claims/trades, it scales up exponentially. Anyone can do that on a paper account.
> 
> Too scared to verify the trades because you don't have any real trades ?




Minwa, you are wrong.

Margin requirement with AAPL CFDs is 5 % for the first 4000 CFDs, 10 % for the next 6000 CFDs, an average of 8 % (not 10 % for the lot as you have stated)

10 000 X 548.10 = 5.481 million

5.481 million X 0.08 = $438480 required (Not $548 as you have wrongly stated)

You do not know my account size, so how can it be inconsistent? You have nothing to measure it against (You are wrong again). I stopped paper trading a long time ago, as I have stated on many occasions, and nobody else has doubted that.

Verify what? It is pretty clear, and it should be clear to any reasonable person, that I have just lost $51,000 of real money. I got stopped out at about 5.50 a.m. Saturday morning while I was sound asleep.

However, on Tuesday evening (Monday is a public holiday in the US), probably in pre-market trading, I intend to buy back 10000 AAPL CFDs at a price around $541 with a stop loss $5 below. If the price goes up quickly by say, $20 or $30, I will just sell my CFDs and pocket the profits. If the price goes up by only $5 or $10 I will revert to my original plan and sell way-out-of-the-money call options over those CFDs.

Again, I am setting out my plans well before execution. So this cannot be called a "hindsight" trade by any reasonable person.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skyQuake said:


> Now what?




Now what, indeed!

Why would anybody with a basic knowledge of trading even have to ask that?

However, as to the "Now what?", I have just explained in my previous post exactly "what" I will do now.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> $5 loss with 10k shares. Wiped out $50k in a few hours. On a leveraged account trading CFDs. Would suck, although it was just paper trades anyway.
> 
> Well done Alvin. Let's see what you come up with next.




Actually, the loss was $51,000 of real money.

And I have just explained two posts ago what I will do next.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Valued said:


> His trades might not be real, but if they were and he was trading with 500k of CFDs for an interest of 5 million, if you assume someone did proper risk management, their trading account size would be quite large (you would think at least 20 million). In such a case 50k loss in one night would be negligible relative to the account. It would be like someone putting $500 on a CFD for a 10k exposure losing 50 bucks. Not a big deal.
> 
> I would like to be at the point where 50k is the same as 50 bucks though




Those trades are very real. I have just lost $51,000 of real money.

But, and that is the important part, I have a plan to get that money back and end up with a bigger profit. I have set out this plan three posts ago.

No, you don't have to have a $20 million account to trade like this. After all, only about $50k was at risk.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> This was his past trade apparently. In 4 months he went from making trades with share value of $54 830 to $54 800 000. Very believable.
> 
> Getting stopped out in a few hours right after trade entry, very good (paper) trading system.




You see, minwa, not every trade has to be the same size. My Sandisk trade was a lot smaller because I was not as confident. I have a lot more confidence in AAPL.

So I got stopped out after a few hours. So what? It means I can now enter the trade at a lower price. Simple.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



TheUnknown said:


> Lets assume alvins trade went into positive on the apple trade so same positive % as it went in negative, how much would he have profited? 54k?




In that case the profit would have been $51,000.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



skc said:


> Alvin is such a great trade he never ever lose money, even on a paper trade.
> 
> He will come back and say something like he saw the intraday breakdown and moved his stop to breakeven. He also sold some options and collected the premium.
> 
> Don't you guys get it?! Alvin NEVER loses on any trade.
> 
> P.S. You might question the fact that he went to bed and couldn't have done that... but he only went to bed in "sim" as well.




No, I never said that I never lose money. I said that I have never had a losing month. And even though I am down a little bit in January, I am sure that I will end the month with a profit.

No, I didn't see the intraday breakdown because I was fast asleep at 5.50 a.m. Even if I had been awake, I couldn't have done anything to avoid a loss. There was no "breakeven" possible because I hadn't sold any call options yet.

Don't you guys get it? Alvin sometimes loses on a trade, but he has never had a losing month.

And I don't do anything in "sim", especially in bed.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Prepare to suspend reality folks
> 
> $0.02




Thanks, wayneL, your 2 cents is much appreciated. But I need a bit more to erase my $51,000 loss.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> No, I never said that I never lose money. I said that I have never had a losing month. And even though I am down a little bit in January, I am sure that I will end the month with a profit.
> 
> No, I didn't see the intraday breakdown because I was fast asleep at 5.50 a.m. Even if I had been awake, I couldn't have done anything to avoid a loss. There was no "breakeven" possible because I hadn't sold any call options yet.
> 
> Don't you guys get it? Alvin sometimes loses on a trade, but he has never had a losing month.
> 
> And I don't do anything in "sim", especially in bed.




Claims which have never been substantiated, never having the integrity and cahonies like pure silk.

IOW => BS


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

OK, pre-market trading opened a few minutes ago and I bought 10000 AAPL CFDs at $542.00, S/L is set at $537.00

Now we just have to wait and see.


----------



## TheUnknown

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, pre-market trading opened a few minutes ago and I bought 10000 AAPL CFDs at $542.00, S/L is set at $537.00
> 
> Now we just have to wait and see.




Same but i purchased 50000 AAPL CFDS.:


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



TheUnknown said:


> Same but i purchased 50000 AAPL CFDS.:




Same, and if I lose, I will just buy double that on the next trade. Martingale works because I have unlimited money.

Oh and here's the "proof", just like Alvin's.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________

This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:

 Date: 21 JAN 2013
 Reference: AAPLAAASDRETWYT
 Size: Buy 50000.0000 shares to open
 Market: Apple Inc. CFD
 Level: 542.00

 If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________


----------



## TheUnknown

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Me & Alvin are going to retire after this trade. 

Since you are in the same trade you will be retiring with us


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> Same, and if I lose, I will just buy double that on the next trade. Martingale works because I have unlimited money.
> 
> Oh and here's the "proof", just like Alvin's.
> 
> __________________________________________________ _________________________________
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date: 21 JAN 2013
> Reference: AAPLAAASDRETWYT
> Size: Buy 50000.0000 shares to open
> Market: Apple Inc. CFD
> Level: 542.00
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> __________________________________________________ __________________________________




Oh minwa!!! This is too funny for quids.

Your "BROKER'S Statement" is obviously a fake. What an idiot!!!

If you are going to fabricate a statement, get at least the date right!!!  This is 2014, not 2013

ROTFLMBO

It just goes to show how screwed up you are. Proof positive.  Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I can't stop laughing.

Apart from that, the code is wrong.

So, to all of you who are now claiming to have bought AAPL CFDs in varying numbers, all I can say is that imitation is the most sincere kind of flattery.

And, no, Martingale does not work, and I don't have unlimited amounts of money. But I can stand a loss of $51k, but not too often, of  course.

I wonder if the moderators of this forum will take notice of your obvious fake broker's  statement. I think there are some rules about posting bogus statements, aren't there?


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I wonder if the moderators of this forum will take notice of your obvious fake broker's  statement. I think there are some rules about posting bogus statements, aren't there?




None apparently, otherwise you wouldn't be posting right now, would it ?


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Oh minwa!!! This is too funny for quids.
> 
> Your "BROKER'S Statement" is obviously a fake. What an idiot!!!
> 
> If you are going to fabricate a statement, get at least the date right!!!  This is 2014, not 2013
> 
> ROTFLMBO
> 
> It just goes to show how screwed up you are. Proof positive.  Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> I can't stop laughing.
> 
> Apart from that, the code is wrong.
> 
> *So, to all of you who are now claiming to have bought AAPL CFDs in varying numbers, all I can say is that imitation is the most sincere kind of flattery.
> *
> And, no, Martingale does not work, and I don't have unlimited amounts of money. But I can stand a loss of $51k, but not too often, of  course.
> 
> I wonder if the moderators of this forum will take notice of your obvious fake broker's  statement. I think there are some rules about posting bogus statements, aren't there?



Finally Alvin admits that imitations of bogus broker's statements and unsubstantiated claims are direct copies of what he's been doing here.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

saroq, you are getting lamer and lamer.

What is bogus about announcing a trade well in advance and then reporting on it until it comes to its successful conclusion?

You are not making any sense whatsoever..

Why am I not surprised?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, pre-market trading opened a few minutes ago and I bought 10000 AAPL CFDs at $542.00, S/L is set at $537.00
> 
> Now we just have to wait and see.




Have just moved the S/L to $547.50 which is slightly better than B/E, allowing for a bit of slippage just in case. Pre-Market AAPL is at $550.80 and rising.


----------



## TheUnknown

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Have just moved the S/L to $547.50 which is slightly better than B/E, allowing for a bit of slippage just in case. Pre-Market AAPL is at $550.80 and rising.




How much you in profit $ now?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



TheUnknown said:


> How much you in profit $ now?




Why do you ask?

Can't you see that I have not made any real money yet. Have barely broken even as I got stopped out again early this morning at $547.50.

Bought back 10000 APPL CFDs (just as I always do) at $546.50, with S/L at $541.50 and am now just sitting back to see what happens.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Have just moved the stop loss to $547.00 which is slightly better than breakeven  (just in case) AAPL is at $551.00


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

What a bugger! Got stopped out again at $547.00 with a small profit. Bought back 10000 AAPL CFDs at $546.60 with the S/L at $541.60. Now I just have to wait for the Earnings Report.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What a bugger! Got stopped out again at $547.00 with a small profit. Bought back 10000 AAPL CFDs at $546.60 with the S/L at $541.60. Now I just have to wait for the Earnings Report.




Stopped out again at a loss after hours by the looks.

I would be curious to know what the reasoning's behind the purchases are? If you are buying back straight after getting stopped out then what is the point? Does Daniels course teach you to keep doing that?

I would also be curious to see broker statements...


----------



## skyQuake

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What a bugger! Got stopped out again at $547.00 with a small profit. Bought back 10000 AAPL CFDs at $546.60 with the S/L at $541.60. Now I just have to wait for the Earnings Report.




Was there any slippage on IG's stop loss?


----------



## FxTrader

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What a bugger! Got stopped out again at $547.00 with a small profit. Bought back 10000 AAPL CFDs at $546.60 with the S/L at $541.60. Now I just have to wait for the Earnings Report.



Entering a trade just before an earnings report???  If you did not have a GSL on those CFDs you'd be very lucky to be stopped at $541.  After hours down $41.50 to $509.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



FxTrader said:


> Entering a trade just before an earnings report???  If you did not have a GSL on those CFDs you'd be very lucky to be stopped at $541.  After hours down $41.50 to $509.




IIRC guaranteed SL has to be at least 5% away.

If so this is probably a very ugly result


----------



## FxTrader

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> IIRC guaranteed SL has to be at least 5% away.
> 
> If so this is probably a very ugly result



Most GSLs are absolute +- a spread (gap protection at a cost).  Even with a GSL this trade took a huge loss.  Without a GSL I shudder at the thought of the financial consequences of such a trade.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



FxTrader said:


> Most GSLs are absolute +- a spread (gap protection at a cost).  Even with a GSL this trade took a huge loss.  Without a GSL I shudder at the thought of the financial consequences of such a trade.




Fear not! This is "ne'er a losing month" Alvin remember!


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

As a "wise" man said to me one day 'Dude,thats a really **** way to trade'

......well, he was right.

you'll get it sooner or later.

but keep posting lol


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

I am sure that I am not alone in saying that I eagerly await your updates. I do hope that you haven't gone and drowned yourself in one of your "dark pools".


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> What a bugger! Got stopped out again at $547.00 with a small profit. Bought back 10000 AAPL CFDs at $546.60 with the S/L at $541.60. Now I just have to wait for the Earnings Report.




yikes! that is a terrible, terrible result... 

you promoted that you learnt from Daniel Kertcher for the past 3+ years, haven't had a losing month ever and your monthly income writing was generating approx. 30% per annum...yet the trades you've noted on this forum have either been hindsight or when horrendous live trades. by the way, are these some of the actual returns for one of the 'bad' months in the past few years of writing options that Daniel Kertcher/Trading Pursuits promote to paying trading pursuits clients? 

August 2011:
Covered Calls
Network Appliance Inc (NTAP) 		P&L -49.88%
Whirlpool Corp (WHR) 				P&L -42.51%
Occidental Petroleum Corp (OXY) 		P&L -55.83%
United States Oil (USO) 			P&L -68.39%
EMC Corp (EMC) 				        P&L -46.70%
Gilead Sciences (GILD) 				P&L -63.53%
JC Penney Co Inc Holding Co (JCP) 		P&L -71.53%
Marathon Oil Corp (MRO)			P&L –43.57%

Naked Puts
FedEX Corp (FDX) 				P&L -195.50%
JP Morgan Chase (JPM)		 		P&L -35.86%
SPDR Trust Series 1 (SPY) 			P&L -131.23%
Direxion Dly 20 Yr Treasury Bear 3x  	P&L -292.96%

or is this wrong?


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



excellent said:


> yikes! ...




Excellent, excellent!

He always has a hindsight "resurrection strategy" in place.
E.g. I woke next morning and covered my a$$ets!


----------



## excellent

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

History hasn't been broken just yet since 'Alvin' still has one day left in the month to generate a profitable month...



> So I got stopped out after a few hours. So what? It means I can now enter the trade at a lower price. Simple.



Exactly, if $540+ looked good, $500 looks even better! Maybe double up, buy another 20,000 AAPL cfds and chase those losses champ.



> Don't you guys get it? Alvin sometimes loses on a trade, but he has never had a losing month.



You heard it here first!


----------



## Judd

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Geez, Al's been quiet for a bit.  Must be too busy spending his untold wealth to mix it with us mere peons.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Judd said:


> Geez, Al's been quiet for a bit.  Must be too busy spending his untold wealth to mix it with us mere peons.




I observed somone sipping apple cider beside a dark pool the other day. I couldn't help wondering if it might've been Alvin. I sure do hope he didn't drown. He's proven to be such great entertainment value. 
His presence (like his analysis) has certainly missed! (apologies- I meant to say "certainly been missed"-must have been a Freudian typo!)


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I miss Alvin for his contrarian signals. I had a backtested AAPL system which made massive profit, simply go short when Alvin announces he goes long on his CFDs. Too bad he probably wiped his account out before I started trading the system live.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I heard that he was run over by a steam roller.

(It's what happens when trying to snatch pennies in front of one, it will get you eventually)


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> I heard that he was run over by a steam roller.
> 
> (It's what happens when trying to snatch pennies in front of one, it will get you eventually)




Was that before or after the leonine pecuniary connoisseur bit his arm off?


----------



## nulla nulla

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> I heard that he was run over by a steam roller.
> 
> (It's what happens when trying to snatch pennies in front of one, it will get you eventually)




I'm sorry WayneL but this one left me a little flat.....


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Maybe he'll reincarnate again like he did that other time!

One can but hope!


----------



## burglar

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



nulla nulla said:


> I'm sorry WayneL but this one left me a little flat.....




Is that a cue for a Flatman & Ribbon joke?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



burglar said:


> Is that a cue for a Flatman & Ribbon joke?




Well he is certainly keeping a low profile.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Well Alvin, wherever you may be, how do ya like dem AAPLs?


----------



## Judd

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, will we ever see your smiling face again?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Judd said:


> Alvin, will we ever see your smiling face again?




I hear he is being interviewed for the script of a new rogue trader movie.... That trade may not have broke Barings bank, but I reckon it certainly broke Alvin's bank.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Judd said:


> Alvin, will we ever see your smiling face again?




Of course, you will. I am right here for all to see.

I know you all were waiting for me to blow up my (considerable) account. Sorry to disappoint you but that didn't happen.

For the last three months I have been busy (well, sort of busy) playing with Apple, by far the biggest and best company in the world.

If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, then I must be sane after all. Because I am doing the same thing over and over again, but I am always expecting the *same* result, and that is making a profit.

You all know what I've been doing and I have been doing exactly that over the last three months. As I said back in January, I buy 10000 AAPL CFDs, place the GSL and sit back and see what happens. I did that 11 times since I last posted here and this is what happened:

Bought at $495, sold at $512
Bought at $513, sold at $535
Bought at $536, sold at $545
Bought at $540, got stopped out at $537
Bought at $517, sold at $536
Bought at $535, got stopped out at $532
Bought at $528, sold at $544
Bought at $536, sold at $542
Bought at $531, got stopped out at $528
Bought at $517, sold at $531

And then, yesterday I had great expectations for an excellent Earnings Report and I was not disappointed.

Bought at $525 and sold at $567

You all have access to the same charts as I, so you can easily check the results.

As usual, I am expecting a lot of comment from you guys and girls. I am used to getting a lot of attention whenever I appear in public. Nothing fazes me.

I may post again in three months time, unless I see a really good comment that warrants an earlier reply.

Yours very truly,

Alvin Purple


----------



## hhse

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I'll emphasise again... *don't waste your money with this course*.

There are real educators out there "cough" ... *Tom Sosnoff* ... "cough" who has created* Free online networks and resources* which deliver the information to you *free* and also offer a much more thorough and transparent educational system.

I won't mention any sites or anything, as it may be against forum rules, but don't be dumb or stupid and go wasting your money on courses such as these in our era where information is so readily available.

Thank me later when you see what I'm talking about ... and if you wan't to talk about trades, we can chat on Skype  I only trade U.S options... would dab in ASX on odd occasion if opportunity presents itself.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> I did that 11 times since I last posted here and this is what happened:
> 
> Bought at $495, sold at $512
> Bought at $513, sold at $535
> Bought at $536, sold at $545
> Bought at $540, got stopped out at $537
> Bought at $517, sold at $536
> Bought at $535, got stopped out at $532
> Bought at $528, sold at $544
> Bought at $536, sold at $542
> Bought at $531, got stopped out at $528
> Bought at $517, sold at $531
> 
> And then, yesterday I had great expectations for an excellent Earnings Report and I was not disappointed.
> 
> Bought at $525 and sold at $567




Alvin, given that there is so much skepticism about your motives and the truthfulness of your claims, I feel it is no longer appropriate for hindsight trades to be posted in this thread.

If you wish to post trades you will have to do so live, which means within 10 minutes of taking the trade.

This is the only way others can verify your claims and those reading this thread can be sure that you are being honest.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

My Dear Joe Blow,

if you care to go back to January, you will see that I set out in detail exactly what I was going to do, well before I placed the trades. Then I reported live as the trades were progressing, the good, the bad and the ugly.

I would have thought that anybody with a basic understanding of trading would be able to follow the trades as they were progressing. Every trade I placed in the last three months was the same: I bought 10000 AAPL CFDs and the result was either a stopout with a small loss or a sale at a higher price when there was a good profit to be had.

I did the same a little time ago today. Bought 10000 AAPL CFDs at $564.00, S/L at $561.00 and will probably take profit at $571.00.

Anybody can follow the trade as it is unfolding right now.

No doubt somebody will call it a hindsight trade. This does not worry me in the slightest as I will be too busy celebrating my win with my friends.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Of course, you will. I am right here for all to see.
> 
> I know you all were waiting for me to blow up my (considerable) account. Sorry to disappoint you but that didn't happen.
> 
> For the last three months I have been busy (well, sort of busy) playing with Apple, by far the biggest and best company in the world.
> 
> I may post again in three months time, unless I see a really good comment that warrants an earlier reply.




Yeah your account cannot blow up because all demo accounts have the reset account balance button.

Apple is the 15th biggest company in the world, "by far" NOT the biggest company in the world, don't know what world you're living in. http://www.forbes.com/global2000/list/

Also your system is pretty pathetic, my system bought Apple @ $3.48 in 1984 and sold at $705.07. Don't beleive me ?? You all have your charts, you can easily check the results !


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

We all saw what happened when truly live (purported) trades were posted, this clown had his a55 handed to him... a catastrophic loss...

Only the most asinine and gullible mug would believe the latest hindsight fabrication.


----------



## Judd

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> We all saw what happened when truly live (purported) trades were posted, this clown had his a55 handed to him... a catastrophic loss...
> 
> Only the most asinine and gullible mug would believe the latest hindsight fabrication.




Um, so I take it you doubt the veracity of AlvinP?  cough* cough*


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So, who said ASIC and AFP have no teeth?



Two Arrested Over Insider Trading Scam



A Melbourne bank officer and a Canberra public servant have been arrested over an alleged $7 million insider trading operation.

Australian Federal Police allege National Australia Bank employee Lukas Kamay obtained market sensitive information from a friend who worked at the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

Kamay, 26, of Clifton Hill, appeared in Melbourne Magistrates Court on Friday afternoon and was granted bail with sureties of $500,000 and barred from trading on any Australian financial market.

Charge sheets tendered to the court allege that Kamay offered ABS employee Christopher Russell Hill, 24, of Belconnen in the ACT, between $50,000 and $60,000 to provide confidential information.

He was ordered to surrender his passport and will face the same court in August. He has been sacked by the NAB.

Kamay used the information to predict fluctuations in the Australian dollar, the AFP says.

He faced seven charges relating to the use of insider information and corrupting a public official.

The activity - which generated about $7 million in profits - occurred between August last year and this month, AFP acting assistant commissioner Ian McCartney said.

The NAB stressed the charges do not relate to Kamay's work at the bank.

"No NAB money or no NAB customer money is involved. No NAB systems have been involved in any trading and no other NAB employee is involved," the bank said in a statement.

The AFP executed eight search warrants and seized assets in Melbourne and Canberra on Friday.

Hill is due in court in Canberra on Saturday facing insider trading, corruption and abuse of public office charges.

The investigation was a joint operation with the AFP and Australian Securities and Investments Commission.


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> So, who said ASIC and AFP have no teeth?
> ...



I cannot comment on AFP, however, I believe that many thousands of disgruntled former investors of the proliferation of dubious financial products, services and institutions within Australia, have ample cause for complaint about ASIC's woefully inadequate performance to date.

P.S. I'm so glad to see that you didn't drown in one of your "dark pools" or choke on your "AAPL" cider, as your posts to date have been of sufficient hilarity to prove most entertaining. 
Have you ever considered giving up investing to pursue a career in "stand up" comedy?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



> I'm so glad to see that you didn't drown in one of your "dark pools" or choke on your "AAPL" cider, as your posts to date have been of sufficient hilarity to prove most entertaining.
> Have you ever considered giving up investing to pursue a career in "stand up" comedy?




Dear cynic and WayneL,

why would I want to give up investing?

Apart from the small loss I suffered one day back in January, I have made consistent profits as AAPL moved from $495 up to $601. I simply bought at the "dips" and sold at the "peaks", just as it says in "Investing 101".

And, WayneL, the loss I suffered in January may be "catastrophic" to you, but it is far from catastrophic for me.

Only last night I bought more AAPL CFDs at the low point of $584, with a S/L at $581 and a minimum T/P at $590 which I may move higher if AAPL rallies strongly next week.

I am glad you find my posts amusing, cynic  (and others, I hope), but nothing is as satisfying as looking at my account balance every time I sell my AAPL CFDs at a profit.

Yours very truly,

Alvin Purple


----------



## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Thanks for your reply Alvin.



Joe Blow said:


> Alvin, given that there is so much skepticism about your motives and the truthfulness of your claims, I feel it is no longer appropriate for hindsight trades to be posted in this thread.
> 
> *If you wish to post trades you will have to do so live, which means within 10 minutes of taking the trade.*
> 
> This is the only way others can verify your claims and those reading this thread can be sure that you are being honest.






Alvin Purple said:


> Dear cynic and WayneL,
> 
> why would I want to give up investing?
> 
> Apart from the small loss I suffered one day back in January, I have made consistent profits as AAPL moved from $495 up to $601. I simply bought at the "dips" and sold at the "peaks", just as it says in "Investing 101".
> 
> And, WayneL, the loss I suffered in January may be "catastrophic" to you, but it is far from catastrophic for me.
> 
> *Only last night I bought more AAPL CFDs at the low point of $584, with a S/L at $581 and a minimum T/P at $590 which I may move higher if AAPL rallies strongly next week.*I am glad you find my posts amusing, cynic  (and others, I hope), but nothing is as satisfying as looking at my account balance every time I sell my AAPL CFDs at a profit.
> 
> Yours very truly,
> 
> Alvin Purple




Noting the sections that I've taken the liberty of bolding within the above posts, I was wondering what part of "If you wish to post trades you will have to do so live, which means within 10 minutes of taking the trade." proved too difficult for Alvin to understand?


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



minwa said:


> Apple is the 15th biggest company in the world, "by far" NOT the biggest company in the world, don't know what world you're living in. http://www.forbes.com/global2000/list/





Well, minwa, it just goes to show how little you understand. 

You obviously don't know that "Market Value" or "Market Capitalisation" is the only thing that matters. And this makes Apple the biggest company in the world. Only Exxon Mobil comes close.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

This is like watching reruns of Gilligan's Island; sorta funny at first, but after a while it's so predictable and asinine that it's all a bit sad. The humour just doesn't work any more.

Alvin, I dub thee, "Gilligan - Foolish Jester of ASF"


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> This is like watching reruns of Gilligan's Island; sorta funny at first, but after a while it's so predictable and asinine that it's all a bit sad. The humour just doesn't work any more.
> 
> Alvin, I dub thee, "Gilligan - Foolish Jester of ASF"




Well, my dear wayneL, you know what they say about sticks and stones. I've been called much worse than that and whatever people may care to call me, it all just runs off like water off a duck's back.

Much more important is the fact that I told you all back in January what I was going to do. I said then that I would keep buying my usual amount of 10000 AAPL CFDs because I felt very bullish about Apple (and I still do). Sure, I got stopped out a few times, but overall, as AAPL moved from $495 up to $601 I made a lot more profit than loss. I signalled my moves ahead of time, however, some of you are still calling it "hindsight trades".

As to my most recent trade: I put it on 9 minutes before the market closed for the weekend. So, technically, by reporting it after market close, I am still within the 10 minute limit set by Jow Blow. So, tomorrow (Monday) we'll see what happens. Should AAPL tank and go below $581, I will be stopped out. No big deal, I will simple rebuy at the lower level.

But I think AAPL will actually rally tomorrow and will go well above $600. 

Anyway, we'll see.

May I wish you all profitable investing.


----------



## TheUnknown

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

So Alvin....

Buying 10000 CFDs of AAPL, how much of your capital is used to open that huge position?


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, on your actual live calls, you are MILES behind.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



TheUnknown said:


> So Alvin....
> 
> Buying 10000 CFDs of AAPL, how much of your capital is used to open that huge position?





About 10 %. As you can see I am very conservative.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Alvin, on your actual live calls, you are MILES behind.




No, wayneL, I am not.

Even if I get stopped out tonight, I'll have plenty of capital left to reenter at the lower level. I am still very bullish on AAPL and with the forthcoming 7 for 1 split on June 9 I will get seven times more shares at about $83 each and from there AAPL can easily get to $100 ($700 at today's value). That recent purchase of BEATS Music (getting Jimmy and Dr Dre on board) is probably the coolest thing Apple ever did.

Sit back and enjoy the ride  (especially if you're holding AAPL shares).


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, you are asking us to suspend reality and ignore simple mathematics. On you actual live calls, not the hindsight calls which everyone can be wildly profitable with, the live calls, you have had your a55 handed to you.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

No, wayneL, I am not asking anybody to suspend reality. Yes, I had a losing trade in January and I have had other minor ones since. But, overall, I have a lot more profitable trades than losing ones.

Take the trade I am currently in, for example. Seeing that AAPL is rising in pre-market, I have moved the stoploss up to $584, ie it is now at break even. So, my worst outcome will be a break even situation. But I expect this trade to be quite profitable.

Later on tonight, or maybe even tomorrow night, when this trade concludes, somebody will no doubt call it a "hindsight" trade. But that's ok, I can live with that. After all, it will be me who will be collecting the profit.


----------



## ftw129

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi Alvin.

What kind of analysis do you use? Technical, fundamental or a bit of both? I know you've alluded to this before but could you elaborate a bit more?

Is it solely your analysis or are you following someone elses?

What other stocks are you interested in at the moment?

Cheers.


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Take the trade I am currently in, for example. Seeing that AAPL is rising in pre-market, I have moved the stoploss up to $584, ie it is now at break even. So, my worst outcome will be a break even situation. But I expect this trade to be quite profitable.
> 
> Later on tonight, or maybe even tomorrow night, when this trade concludes, somebody will no doubt call it a "hindsight" trade. But that's ok, I can live with that. After all, it will be me who will be collecting the profit.




Alvin, you must not have understood my previous post, so I will repeat myself. You are not permitted to discuss any trades in this thread that you have not called live. Live trades must be posted within 10 minutes of them having been taken.

From now on, any posts in this thread that contain hindsight trades will be removed, and you will receive an infraction. If you continue to post hindsight trades your account will be permanently suspended. Please abide by the rules I have placed on this thread if you wish to continue posting.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> No, wayneL, I am not asking anybody to suspend reality. Yes, I had a losing trade in January and I have had other minor ones since. But, overall, I have a lot more profitable trades than losing ones.




I thought you had no losing months ? So did you lose that month ? Why did you stop posting right after that loss ? You were very active posting before that but gone for months right after you called the trade, and it gapped down. A bit suspicious don't you think. Happened recently here with another thread with someone else as well.


----------



## Samuel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, given your inner life appears so ungovenrned and chaotic with you popping in and out of this forum with your endless hinesight trades, I am of the opinion you must necessarily manifest this confusion in your trading results and worse, your outer life.

Can I suggest you go away and acquire some measure of accomplishment in the management of your own mind, including learning the ability to repress your urges to gratify your desires and big note yourself.

Your trading results will improve.

Then please return and talk with a purpose or, if that is not possible for you, remain silent.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> Alvin, given your inner life appears so ungovenrned and chaotic with you popping in and out of this forum with your endless hinesight trades, I am of the opinion you must necessarily manifest this confusion in your trading results and worse, your outer life.
> 
> Can I suggest you go away and acquire some measure of accomplishment in the management of your own mind, including learning the ability to repress your urges to gratify your desires and big note yourself.
> 
> Your trading results will improve.
> 
> Then please return and talk with a purpose or, if that is not possible for you, remain silent.




My Dear Samuel,

you have hit the nail right on the head. My inner life not only appears to be ungoverned and chaotic, it actually is. However, my trading results are far from ungoverned and chaotic, neither is my outer life. I have taken your suggestion to heart and have gone away to acquire a measure of accomplishment in the magement of my own mind, including the the ability to repress my urges to gratify my desires and bignote myself.

My trading results have already improved, but I am afraid I can't tell you details because that would amount to a hindsight trade.

I will from now on post my trades only before I put them on. If those trades turn out to be profitable and I report them as such, I wonder if posters on this forum will still call them "hindsight" trades? Yes, they probably will.

Tonight I will post just one trade which I intend to place in a couple of minutes from now, in pre-market.

Buy 5000 CFDS of TSLA at approximately $186.00

Talk to you soon,

Best Regards,

Alvin Purple


----------



## Samuel

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin, what was the trade?

Joe Blow, please have your sword drawn.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Samuel said:


> Alvin, what was the trade?
> 
> Joe Blow, please have your sword drawn.





This is not a hindsight trade.

Last night, at 10.05 pm, I said I would buy 5000 TSLA CFDs at approximately $186. My order was filled at $185.50 and then I went to bed.

I have just got up this morning at 5.40 am (I am an early riser) and I am about to close out the trade at about $191.

It is now 5.45 am and I have just this minute close out the trade at $191.00. 

Now I am off for my morning run.

Bye all.


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> This is not a hindsight trade.
> 
> Last night, at 10.05 pm, I said I would buy 5000 TSLA CFDs at approximately $186. My order was filled at $185.50 and then I went to bed.
> 
> I have just got up this morning at 5.40 am (I am an early riser) and I am about to close out the trade at about $191.
> 
> It is now 5.45 am and I have just this minute close out the trade at $191.00.
> 
> Now I am off for my morning run.
> 
> Bye all.




Got any broker statements to prove this?


----------



## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> Tonight I will post just one trade *which I intend to place* in a couple of minutes from now, in pre-market.




Alvin, I can see you are having some difficulty with this very simple concept of calling live trades. Calling live trades is not about what you are going to do, it is about what you have done. 

I'll make this very simple for you:

1) You must post the details of any buy or sell within 10 minutes of having taken the trade.
2) You must time stamp your trades with the minute the trade was executed.

So the format would be:

10:05am Bought 5000 TSLA CFDs @ $185.50

The time stamp is so that others can verify your trades and ensure that they were posted within 10 minutes of execution. 

If you are serious about demonstrating your trading prowess then these are the rules that you need to abide by. The moderators and I will be watching closely to ensure that you comply.

I trust I have made myself clear.


----------



## wayneL

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Isn't straight CFD trading a bit off topic? What has this got to do with the quality (or not as the case may be) of Kertcher's offerings?


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Let me post a trade Alvin-style.

I INTEND to buy AAPL at the market price at the open today.

I will come back at the close to report whether I did end up buying it or not, depending on the price at the close. Oh my size is 10 0000 CFDs too. I have more/unlimited capital so a small loss does not bother me, I will just double the position size next buy if I lose this one. Don't bother asking me for brokerage or look up the trades in market order history, I trade in dark pool. I must quickly bank my theoretical profit at the end of the day because I cannot risk another embarrassment when I hold overnight positions and it gaps down against me like last time, (luckily it was only a imaginary trade), which will cause me to hide for a couple of months before I muster the courage to post again, claiming it was a small loss  .

Wish me luck guys.

Alvin Purple


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Joe Blow said:


> Alvin, I can see you are having some difficulty with this very simple concept of calling live trades. Calling live trades is not about what you are going to do, it is about what you have done.





So, if it's just about what I have done, then it will be called a "hindsight" trade.

However, time stamping is a good idea.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> So, if it's just about what I have done, then it will be called a "hindsight" trade.
> 
> However, time stamping is a good idea.




just post your statements... it's not that hard to do.


----------



## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



>Apocalypto< said:


> just post your statements... it's not that hard to do.





Quite hard when they are imaginary trades


----------



## FxTrader

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Isn't straight CFD trading a bit off topic? What has this got to do with the quality (or not as the case may be) of Kertcher's offerings?



Exactly, if Kertcher's strategies are profitable then let's see the verified trading statements of someone who has followed the trading rules exactly as documented over a period of at least 5 years. Where are the stats of how many of his "students" actually make money trading his strategies?  Less than 10% perhaps (the norm)? 

Of course this will never be forthcoming and Ketcher, like so many before him and after, make their money giving "education" seminars not trading.  Alvin is no doubt a Kertcher shill entity intent on distracting people here with phantom trades.  There is no secret formula here, covered call strats such as this have been around for many years, no verified trading data is at best a deception and likely a scam - pure and simple.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

 8 posts by the same poster, quoting himself numerous times, answering his own questions, wasting space and saying nothing. How can we compete with that? I won't even try.


----------



## saroq

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> 8 posts by the same poster, quoting himself numerous times, answering his own questions, wasting space and saying nothing. How can we compete with that? I won't even try.




Well Alvin we've had to endure months of your lies, hindsight trade posts and general dribble so I think we can give over a bit of space to try and educate people about the deceptive practices of Daniel Kertcher and to warn them about his con.


----------



## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

saroq:


----------



## hhse

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



saroq said:


> Well Alvin we've had to endure months of your lies, hindsight trade posts and general dribble so I think we can give over a bit of space to try and educate people about the deceptive practices of Daniel Kertcher and to warn them about his con.




I couldn't agree more. DK operates a educational course for beginners, yet, his course is equivalent to a 'sales pitch'.

e.g Of things I've heard in the past: 

* If you see 3 White Marching soldiers (in reference to candlesticks), it is a time to go long CFDs - wow, there has just been 3 days of rally... time to go in? 
* If you see a crisis (high volality, when options are expensive) go buy Put options!
* If you put in $20,000 into this trade, you would have earned a few hundred thousand dollars and wouldn't have to work for the rest of the year


Those are the type of remarks you would expect to hear in his seminars. Anyone with the slightest wit, would take his word for a grain of salt, as he doesn't seem to understand the importance of teaching: bank roll management and staying small in your positions, protecting yourself from directional risk and importance of volatility when picking your strategy.

Honestly, there are more thorough and interactive learning alternatives out there that are free and more thorough.


----------



## satanoperca

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Hi Alvin,

You seem like a genuine and straight up sort of guy with nothing to prove, but just trying to educate others than money can be made from the markets.

Instead of all the head banning , can you please just provide Joe with say 6 months of trading statements.

Then all can be settled and you can be the king of the castle.

Thank-you for doing this in advance

Cheero


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## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



satanoperca said:


> Hi Alvin,
> 
> You seem like a genuine and straight up sort of guy with nothing to prove, but just trying to educate others than money can be made from the markets.
> 
> Instead of all the head banning , can you please just provide Joe with say 6 months of trading statements.
> 
> Then all can be settled and you can be the king of the castle.
> 
> Thank-you for doing this in advance
> 
> Cheero




Yeah please, do show us your unloseable months(reset equity button on paper account are very useful !), 10 000 CFDs of AAPL(as if anyone with that big account would be stupid enough to trade CFDs) and your "70k profit - should be enough profit for a day" (yes..250 trading days means 17.5 million profit per year, wonder why I don't see Alvin Purple on Forbes rich lists..).

Please show us your legendary trading skills that you learnt from Daniel Kertcher !


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## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

OK, this is for all of you:

Just for this once I will take you through one og my trades that I am placing tonight. The premarket is open and the trade I aim to place is the purchase of 10,000 AAPL CFDs.

I will timestamp the transaction and will publish my broker's statement which will show exactly what I have bought, the quantity and the purchase price.

So, here we go. It is now 9.56 pm and I have just placed my order with my broker, waiting for it to be filled.

And here is now confirmation from my broker:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Thank you for using IG Markets.

This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:

Date:         16 MAY 2014
Reference:  DIAAAABVUWS7QAD
Size:          Buy 10000.0000 shares to open
Market:      Apple Inc (All Sessions) CFD
Level:        588.07

If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.

IG Markets Limited
Level 15
55 Collins Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Freecall: 1800 601 799
Email: helpdesk@igmarkets.com.au

AFSL No. 220440
ABN 84 099 019 851
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



Time Stamp: 9.58 pm

I have just bought 10,000 AAPL CFDs at $588.07

Now we can all watch the trade. I will also let you know when I am selling. You will know within a few minutes of the sale (trying to stay within the 10 minute time limit set by Joe Blow).


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## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

It is now 11.11 pm and AAPL has just reached $589.75.

Since I don't feel like staying up all night, I have now set the S/L at $589.07 and the T/P at $595.07. I am off to bed now, tomorrow is a big day. I will post sometime on Saturday.

Night All! Sweet Dreams! 

Time Stamp: 11.14 pm: Set stoploss at $589.07, profit target at $595.07


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## minwa

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Err one trade proves nothing, a fool can toss a coin (buy or sell) and has a 50% of winning. Are we supposed to deem you a profitable trader from one trade ?

Send your past 6 months + statement to admin or any mod of your choice. How else do you prove your unloseable months

Also, that is not a broker statement. Send the PDF file or email sent to you from IG to the admin. That is a broker statement.

If we were to tally up all the trades you posted, you're in a miserable loss now after the AAPL trade many months ago. Let  us know how much you lost and how much you made the 2 recent "trades" you posted.


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## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Alvin,

How do any of these supposed trades actually tie in with Daniels so called teaching?


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## DeepState

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

Trade Initiation.

11:!5am GMT  1000x Ukranian Bear Knock-Out Call Calendar Ratio 1:2 Bull Spread at USD 20,500, via OTC swap


Term Sheet Attached:


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## Joe Blow

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



wayneL said:


> Isn't straight CFD trading a bit off topic? What has this got to do with the quality (or not as the case may be) of Kertcher's offerings?






prawn_86 said:


> How do any of these supposed trades actually tie in with Daniels so called teaching?




Alvin, perhaps you could respond to this question, which has now been asked twice?


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## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Joe Blow said:


> Alvin, perhaps you could respond to this question, which has now been asked twice?




1. Nothing whatsoever

2. ditto


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## prawn_86

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> 1. Nothing whatsoever
> 
> 2. ditto




In that case you should create your own thread and leave this one to discussing Daniels "products"


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## >Apocalypto<

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



Alvin Purple said:


> OK, this is for all of you:
> 
> Just for this once I will take you through one og my trades that I am placing tonight. The premarket is open and the trade I aim to place is the purchase of 10,000 AAPL CFDs.
> 
> I will timestamp the transaction and will publish my broker's statement which will show exactly what I have bought, the quantity and the purchase price.
> 
> So, here we go. It is now 9.56 pm and I have just placed my order with my broker, waiting for it to be filled.
> 
> And here is now confirmation from my broker:
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Thank you for using IG Markets.
> 
> This message is to confirm that you have placed the following trade:
> 
> Date:         16 MAY 2014
> Reference:  DIAAAABVUWS7QAD
> Size:          Buy 10000.0000 shares to open
> Market:      Apple Inc (All Sessions) CFD
> Level:        588.07
> 
> If you have any questions, please contact our Helpdesk on the details below.
> 
> IG Markets Limited
> Level 15
> 55 Collins Street
> Melbourne VIC 3000
> 
> Freecall: 1800 601 799
> Email: helpdesk@igmarkets.com.au
> 
> AFSL No. 220440
> ABN 84 099 019 851
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> Time Stamp: 9.58 pm
> 
> I have just bought 10,000 AAPL CFDs at $588.07
> 
> Now we can all watch the trade. I will also let you know when I am selling. You will know within a few minutes of the sale (trying to stay within the 10 minute time limit set by Joe Blow).




That doesn’t prove much... anyone can post an edited version of that... I can copy that info and post an edited version now. 

Why can't you take a screen print off your IG plat showing the open trade... I post screen shots it's not hard... just pop it in paint and post it. This way no one can doubt you...


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## cynic

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



>Apocalypto< said:


> That doesn’t prove much... anyone can post an edited version of that... I can copy that info and post an edited version now.
> 
> Why can't you take a screen print off your IG plat showing the open trade... I post screen shots it's not hard... just pop it in paint and post it. This way no one can doubt you...




Is there a way to differentiate between live and demo accounts with such screenshots?


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## >Apocalypto<

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*



cynic said:


> Is there a way to differentiate between live and demo accounts with such screenshots?




the top of the acc say's demo but i can't be sure atm.... been a long while since i traded off pure deal. it might not.... the live acc numbers are way different to the demo acc numbers... 

very good point cynic...


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## Alvin Purple

*Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?*

I agree. A return of 6.6 % p.a. is nothinng short of pathetic.

Start another thread about Daniel Kertcher? By all means, go ahead. Daniel just loves threads about himself. Every thread about him raises his profile and he gets another few thousand people to sign up for his courses.

As everybody on this forum knows, I have been bullish on AAPL for a long time. Even suffering a small loss back in January did not deter me. And today you only have to look at the share price of AAPL to see that I have made a lot of profit in the last four months.

Many times I have flagged my intentions BEFORE I placed the trades, but when they turned out to be profitable, you called them hindsight trades. However, this is your problem, not mine.

I will be placing lots of trades on Tuesday. I am very bullish on the market overall. So when you see the market go up in the next few weeks, you will know that I'll be making good profits. It looks like 2014 could be my best year yet.

I won't be reporting on any of my successes because I have been warned not to post any hindsight trades.

Yours in Prosperity

 Alvin Purple


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## Magda

I wonder why Alvin Purple isn't coming here anymore. Maybe it's because he's blown up his account with all his AAPL CFDs.

I remember when he told me to buy them when they were about $500. I didn't follow his advice as I thought they were grossly overpriced.

I checked recently and found to my surprise that they had dropped to $90 and it all happened in a few minutes before market opening on June 9. So he wouldn't have had a chance to get out of the trade and he obviously suffered an 80 % loss. If he really had bought 10,000 CFDs as he always claimed, his losses would have been disastrous.

I think I saw him recently lining up at the South Melbourne soup kitchen.

If he ever comes back here, I wonder what fairytales he'll tell us and how his loss was only minor.

But we know better, don't we?


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## DeepState

Magda said:


> I wonder why Alvin Purple isn't coming here anymore. Maybe it's because he's blown up his account with all his AAPL CFDs.
> 
> I remember when he told me to buy them when they were about $500. I didn't follow his advice as I thought they were grossly overpriced.
> 
> I checked recently and found to my surprise that they had dropped to $90 and it all happened in a few minutes before market opening on June 9. So he wouldn't have had a chance to get out of the trade and he obviously suffered an 80 % loss. If he really had bought 10,000 CFDs as he always claimed, his losses would have been disastrous.
> 
> I think I saw him recently lining up at the South Melbourne soup kitchen.
> 
> If he ever comes back here, I wonder what fairytales he'll tell us and how his loss was only minor.
> 
> But we know better, don't we?




Actually, the stock was split 7:1 on that day.  Pains me to say it but, after adjustment, the trade outlined on #725 would be up USD 420k.  

Expect a comeback.  It should be fun. Purple Purple.  Purple Purple.


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## minwa

DeepState said:


> Actually, the stock was split 7:1 on that day.  Pains me to say it but, after adjustment, the trade outlined on #725 would be up USD 420k.
> 
> Expect a comeback.  It should be fun. Purple Purple.  Purple Purple.




You took the bait. Check Magda's post history..s/he is really just here to bump this thread.


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## DeepState

minwa said:


> You took the bait. Check Magda's post history..s/he is really just here to bump this thread.







I enjoyed your post history on this thread more.  

Anyway, if s/he should return, you can feel free to point out that the back-dated, selected and unverified trade in AAPL: NAS returned 8.3% over the period.  This compares to the NASDAQ index return over the same period of 7.1%.  Hardly the kind of thing to illustrate some sort of massive stock picking ability, particularly (if) in the presence of hindsight.

Furthermore, of the 2512 stocks in the NASDAQ Composite which had a complete history over the same time period, AAPL was ranked 1300.  In other words, one of my beloved NASA Monkeys would probably have done better.  In contrast to the cost of a formal course, their consulting rate is peanuts.


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## Joe Blow

It's probably time to point out that Alvin Purple is Magda. Alvin was using multiple ASF accounts to spruik Daniel Kertcher's products and services. I have known this for some time, but thought I would let Alvin demonstrate his dishonesty a little more clearly.

I think everyone can safely disregard all unsubstantiated claims made by Alvin Purple in this thread. If someone is dishonest enough to register and post under multiple accounts for the sole purpose of spruiking someone's products and services, I think it's safe to assume they are being dishonest about everything.

I think the question needs to be asked, "Why was Alvin here?"

It's quite clear that Alvin was here to serve a very specific purpose, and that was to attempt to mitigate some of the negativity in this thread. Fortunately, ASF members are very vigilant and recognised from the start that Alvin had an agenda, and that his claims were less than honest.

As a result of Alvin's deliberate and calculated dishonesty, I have decided that this thread needs a new rule: Anyone making specific unsubstantiated claims needs to provide documentary evidence of those claims. In the case of trading results, certified copies of broker statements must be forwarded to me for verification purposes. 

I urge everyone reading this thread to ignore all posts by Alvin Purple and Magda. For the moment I am leaving the posts up as a testament to Alvin's dishonesty.


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## saroq

Come on Daniel AKA Alvin Purple AKA Magda this thread is slipping way down the bottom of the first page and is in danger of disappearing all together.  How may bazillion dollars have you made this week Alvin um... Magda er... Daniel?


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## saroq

Sorry I couldn't resist.


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## investortom

I've used Trading Pursuits in the past and while I don't use them currently, when I did I was ahead ($) so I can't complain. Following his recommendations was simple. His workshops are very informative, so Daniel and Trading Pursuits gets a tick from me.


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## NationalInquirer

So, "investortom", nice name, but no cigar.

Having established that Alvin is Magda, as well as several other aliases, we now see "investortom" turn up and, would you believe, he is actually putting in a good word for Daniel, Alvin, Magda et al.

Just when we all thought that this thread could be laid to rest, you turn up, apparantly with clear instructions to keep this thread going.

Too late, I am afraid. The administrators and moderators here have seen right through you, and your ill-conceived plans will come to nothing.

This thread has run its course and no effort by you, Daniel, Alvin, Magda or any of the other miscreants will change its fate.

The line has been drawn.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________


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## minwa

investortom said:


> I've used Trading Pursuits in the past and while I don't use them currently, when I did I was ahead ($) so I can't complain. Following his recommendations was simple. His workshops are very informative, so Daniel and Trading Pursuits gets a tick from me.




You made money with them in the past and you don't use it currently ? So are you currently using a better method otherwise why stop what's supposedly working ?? Makes no sense after you made another thread looking for free forex signal providers. Why are you looking for free forex signal providers when Trading Pursuits system makes money - fair enough if you want to diversify but why have you stopped TP and been looking for something else that makes money when you already have one ?


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## AuntieShazza

Matteo said:


> I recently completed the Platinum Pursuits Tradeability Income course presented by Daniel Kertcher.
> 
> Bottom line:  I don’t think what Daniel is promoting is a scam. However I do think there are some serious misrepresentations and I would not be surprised if there were a number of disgruntled people out there. And the truth is that no matter how good a strategy is, probably only 10% of people will make good money from it regardless. Do I regret doing the course? No. As a result of doing the course I have opened myself up to the US market which I have never traded before, and so far the trades I have made have paid off a fair bit of the course costs. With a larger bank the strategy would be much more attractive, so it is something that I believe will reward me down the track. Would I recommend it to a friend? Probably not, unless they had a large bank to invest and had the right mindset to approach it with. It certainly has the potential to be quite lucrative for the right person.
> 
> Sorry to be so longwinded, but hopefully this may help someone make an informed decision before deciding to attend the course. Cheers.




Thanks Matteo for taking the time to write this post.  I am new to understanding the stock market and found what you had to say useful and helpful as it put into perspective what I could expect.  The on-line videos I watched of Daniels were informative and make the stock market trading sound a lot easier and less risky than it actually is.


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## Faramir

AuntieShazza said:


> The on-line videos I watched of Daniels were informative and make the stock market trading sound a lot easier and less risky than it actually is.



Are you Daniel, Alvin or Madga reborn? Please let this thread fade away. Morons like you keep popping up. Stop contaminating this site with these pathetic posts.

Don't you get it. You think after 38 pages, you would give up and go somewhere else to promote his "product". No one here wants "one post wonders" to post these moronic statements. Go AWAY and never come back!!!!!


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## >Apocalypto<

AuntieShazza said:


> Thanks Matteo for taking the time to write this post.  I am new to understanding the stock market and found what you had to say useful and helpful as it put into perspective what I could expect.  The on-line videos I watched of Daniels were informative and make the stock market trading sound a lot easier and less risky than it actually is.




i wonder who you work for


----------



## NationalInquirer

Having read all 749 posts in this forum I found that the question posed at the beginning of the thread (Serious or Scam?) has still not been answered.

I therefore decided to investigate myself. Anybody can make claims one way or another. I therefore decided to disregard all claims made on this thread, including the claims made by Daniel Kertcher (and his paid posters on this thread) and went to the one truly believable source of information: The website of Daniel Kertcher's investment vehicle, Spectrum Live Capital Management Pty. Ltd.

To invest in the "Spectrum Live Portfolio Select managed investment scheme" one has to have attended one of Daniel's courses, because, in his own words: "An educated person makes a better investor." Be that as it may, the only thing that counts are results. And results is just what I found.

This "Scheme" started to operate in April 2013. Management fee was set at 3.3 % p.a. and investors would receive "Units" with an initial value of $1.00 each and the value of the units would change monthly based on the return the fund would achieve. Initially the value of the units would increase slowly month by month until November 2013 by which time the value of one unit had increased to $1.067 or a 6.7 % return for 7 months (11.5 % annualised). 

However, November 2013 was the last time any results were available publicly and this fact alone made me very suspicous. All requests made to Spectrum Live Capital Management Pty. Ltd. for monthly results after November 2013 were met with a blank refusal. Apparantly only actual investors were entitled to the results.

So, I had a quick look around and it was not too difficult to find people who had actually invested with Spectrum Live and were prepared to talk about the results. And a totally different picture emerges. As at December 2014 the value of one unit has sunk to $0.99, a reduction of 1 % since April 2013. In addition, an investor would have been charged 2 annual management fees of 3.3 % each, resulting in a total loss of 7.6 % of his capital over 20 months

Spectrum Live Capital Management Pty. Ltd. list a total of 14 risks in the PDS. And they are: General, market, timing, political, liquidity, sector, concentration, portfolio investment, investment manager, fund of fund, counterparty, multi class, default class and scheme risk. So, here we have it: with so many risks attached, why would anyone want to invest?

As I said before, the only thing that matters are results. And the results are there for all to see.


----------



## zac

NationalInquirer said:


> All requests made to Spectrum Live Capital Management Pty. Ltd. for monthly results after November 2013 were met with a blank refusal. Apparantly only actual investors were entitled to the results.




Thats an offence under the Corporation Act. I dont remember the specific section now, however fund performance must be disclosed on request. Im not sure how that would apply to the wholesale or high net worth investor type funds.

The management fee is included in the unit cost. So its not an extra deduction. 

Also, there are 3 different funds (technically 4), are you able to provide performance results for the other 2 as well?


----------



## NationalInquirer

No.

The one that I checked out was the one that Daniel promoted most. When I saw the result, I lost all interest in anything else he is associated with.


----------

