# Holden - On yer Bike!



## Calliope (9 November 2013)

Holden is making cars we are not buying. It is run as a sheltered workshop for low output and highly paid feather-bedded unionists. Each "job saved" is costing the taxpayer $300,000. It is time to put common sense before ideology.



> The local industry’s market share has fallen below 15 per cent. Ford is departing; only Holden and Toyota are left. Total industry support is estimated at between $500 million and $1 billion yearly.
> 
> The message from the company to government is summarised by a senior minister: “They want a further $200m to $300m each year in perpetuity. That’s extortion.”
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-ailing-industry/story-e6frg74x-1226756138133


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## Macquack (9 November 2013)

Calliope said:


> Holden is making cars we are not buying. It is run as a sheltered workshop for low output and highly paid feather-bedded unionists. Each "job saved" is costing the taxpayer $300,000. It is time to put common sense before ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-ailing-industry/story-e6frg74x-1226756138133




I am guessing you have ditched your trusty Holden for a Japanese motorised scooter?


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## Macquack (9 November 2013)

Bring back a retro version of this aussie classic.


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## Calliope (9 November 2013)

Macquack said:


> Bring back a retro version of this aussie classic.
> 
> View attachment 55193




At least, when this icon is buried, we will still have football, meat pies and kangaroos.


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## noco (9 November 2013)

It does not make sense to me when Holden scream for Government assistance and in the same breath pay there assembly workers and increase of 6% and a bonus of $1000. If the unions had any concern for the welfare of their members and the continuation of employment in the car industry why don't they go to Holden and suggest a freeze on wages.

Another point I do not understand with Holden is why are they making $70,000 and $80,000 Holden cars.....I had a reason to viist their show room in Townsville a month ago and they had these expensive cars on the floor.
How many people could afford such luxury?

I know this might sound  some what of a crazy question to ask, but why don't Ford and Holden combine their operations under one roof so they have a higher output on their assembly liine and yes some workers would have to go perhaps by natural attrition. Close one factory and save the one with the most up to date equipment or use the best from both.

I guess I have stuck my neck out on this one but my shoulders are broad enough.


Produce smaller cars at a price to meet the local and overseas market. Bring back a simple car without all these expensive electronic gadgets.


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## Calliope (10 November 2013)

noco said:


> Produce smaller cars at a price to meet the local and overseas market. Bring back a simple car without all these expensive electronic gadgets.




Such a car would require massive retooling and would still not be competitive. And it is now too late to change course. If Australian manufacturers can't provide what we want at an affordable price then they are redundant



> Despite subsidies, Holden manufacturing plant does not turn a profit. Holden's manufacturing plant is losing up to $18 million a year -- or $270 a vehicle -- despite the carmaker factoring in at least $1 billion in government subsidies during the next decade as closure looms for its marginal Australian operations.



http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/Holdens_18m_loss_with_handouts_20131108

Can you imagine how huge the loss on each car would be without factoring in the taxpayer subsidy?

Labor's policy has never been about saving the Holden...it is all about  saving the car workers' union jobs. Perhaps we should drive over-priced Holdens as a badge of honour for saving inefficient workers' jobs,  in the same way Prius drivers do for saving the earth.


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## Judd (10 November 2013)

noco said:


> ....I know this might sound  some what of a crazy question to ask, but why don't Ford and Holden combine their operations under one roof so they have a higher output on their assembly liine and yes some workers would have to go perhaps by natural attrition. Close one factory and save the one with the most up to date equipment or use the best from both.,,,,,,




'Cause they're no Falcon good or just Holden on?


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## burglar (10 November 2013)

Calliope said:


> ... Labor's policy has never been about saving the Holden...it is all about  saving the car workers' union jobs. Perhaps we should drive over-priced Holdens as a badge of honour for saving inefficient workers' jobs,  in the same way Prius drivers do for saving the earth.




I like the title of this thread!
I remember in the 60's, Holden workers rode to work on bicycles!! :

Very apt!


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## MrBurns (14 November 2013)

Just saw Top Gear, t's amazing how many car makers there are in Britain, they export Toyotas to Japan and make everything from farm equipment to buses.

How can they do that and we cant make a bloody Holden without a national emergency being declared.


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## noco (14 November 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Just saw Top Gear, t's amazing how many car makers there are in Britain, they export Toyotas to Japan and make everything from farm equipment to buses.
> 
> How can they do that and we cant make a bloody Holden without a national emergency being declared.




Because those communist dominated unions over the years going back to thr 50"s and 60's have stuffed up the whole car industry.

This is communist and left wing socialist ideology on how to ruin a country economically...higher wages, longer holiday leave, 17.5% leave loading, long service leave, penalty rates etc etc....all adds to cost of manufacturing..Everything has to become Nationalized....everything must be owned by the state just as it had been in Russia, South Korea, Cuba and China.


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## overhang (15 November 2013)

I'm really undecided on this one, I mean if I lost my job tomorrow there would be no government outcry or assistance.  But I don't believe there is a car industry in the world that isn't subsidized .  The 300k you quoted per worker isn't taking into account the many jobs that will be indirectly and directly impacted such as part suppliers.  It is a shame though because their cars do offer great bang for buck for a rear wheel drive 4 door sedan.


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## MrBurns (15 November 2013)

overhang said:


> I'm really undecided on this one, I mean if I lost my job tomorrow there would be no government outcry or assistance.  But I don't believe there is a car industry in the world that isn't subsidized .  The 300k you quoted per worker isn't taking into account the many jobs that will be indirectly and directly impacted such as part suppliers.  It is a shame though because their cars do offer great bang for buck for a rear wheel drive 4 door sedan.




They are great value for money, I had a Commodore not too long ago only cost $25k and it was almost new, eventually changed to a Lexus though.

People want smaller cars, the cost of fuel is too much these days.

Britain's car industry seems to be thriving though and those workers would be well paid.


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## Calliope (23 November 2013)

The truth is...*Holden and its workforce are bludgers on the Australian taxpayer.*



> Manipulating everybody else to drop what they are doing and rush to help while you sit motionless in a puddle of your own mess is, I suppose, the operating method for lazy scroungers with no pride. It appears this is exactly how Holden boss Mike Devereux, Carr and the unions want the workers to appear, which is rather unfortunate because Australians, quite rightly, have had enough of the blighters. Truth is, people suspect there is an awful lot the Holden crew could be doing to save themselves, and they'd be right about that suspicion.
> 
> In the past, Holden has misinformed us on its workers' salaries, claiming the average worker earns $55,000. Journalists, without checking Holden's workplace agreement, a public document, have repeated this claim. While the Modern Award base salaries for vehicle builders are in the modest $37,000-$42,000 range, the base rates in Holden's agreement are in the $60,000-$80,000 range. *Add on to this loadings and penalties and I am comfortable betting that if Holden was compelled by government, as it should be, to produce the group certificates of workers, earnings would show in the $100,000 to $150,000 range*. Putting aside wages, the agreement does not let Holden manage its own business. *It cannot even hire a casual for one hour without union permission. You just cannot run a business like that.* There is, of course, an easy way to fix all this and save Holden. If the workers want to keep their jobs, they can. If Holden wants to stay in Australia, it can. If the union wants its members to have ongoing work, it can.* The answers lies in a simple two-page form on the Fair Work Commission website, called an F24.
> 
> An F24 is a request for the commission to terminate Holden's workplace agreement. A termination decree would put all the Holden workers back on to the terms and conditions of the Vehicle Industry Modern Award.*



(my bolds)

- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...y-fnkdypbm-1226766308075#sthash.pXiQF7fm.dpuf


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 December 2013)

Reports tonight from the ABC that Holden will quit Australia in 2016.

gg


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## sptrawler (6 December 2013)

Even though I like the Commodore and Falcon, it seems crazy to subsidies them, just to keep them profitable for the parent U.S company.


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## trainspotter (6 December 2013)

GM in Detroit will make the decision and NOT Holden locally. GM also has restrictions on Holden competing internationally which seems bizarre? 

http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...en-pull-out-plan/story-e6frfku9-1226776625199

So the government has given them 2 billion over 12 years and they still remain unprofitable?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-02/holden-reveals-billions-in-subsidies/4604558

What about this industry leading initiative? 

http://cashforclunker.com.au/


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## sptrawler (6 December 2013)

trainspotter said:


> GM in Detroit will make the decision and NOT Holden locally. GM also has restrictions on Holden competing internationally which seems bizarre?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...en-pull-out-plan/story-e6frfku9-1226776625199
> 
> ...




Didn't General Motors, U.S limit how many Australian made Pontiacs(Monaros) could be exported to the U.S, after a backlash from the U.S unions?


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## banco (6 December 2013)

noco said:


> It does not make sense to me when Holden scream for Government assistance and in the same breath pay there assembly workers and increase of 6% and a bonus of $1000. If the unions had any concern for the welfare of their members and the continuation of employment in the car industry why don't they go to Holden and suggest a freeze on wages.
> 
> Another point I do not understand with Holden is why are they making $70,000 and $80,000 Holden cars.....I had a reason to viist their show room in Townsville a month ago and they had these expensive cars on the floor.
> How many people could afford such luxury?
> ...




If you have high labor costs selling larger cars can compensate for them  somewhat.  That is why the US automakers went crazy selling SUVs a decade ago.


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## sptrawler (9 December 2013)

So if we send $300m a year to GM they will continue to produce cars in Aust.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...vealed-how-to-save-holden-20131208-2yzgc.html

Wouldn't the government be better off saying sod off, you can walk away and sell or nationalise the factory.


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## prawn_86 (9 December 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Wouldn't the government be better off saying sod off, you can walk away and sell or nationalise the factory.




That's one thing i think that any industry that is gov supported should be willing to do; give a % stake of their ownership to the government/taxpayers.

If tax money is supporting them, why shouldnt all taxpayers (not just those direct and indirectly connected to the industry) see a return?


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## drsmith (9 December 2013)

Like with the 4-year Gonski funding, I suspect this will be another inglorious back down by the government. The political price will otherwise be too high.

At a public political level, it's been handled badly.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/holden_blame_game_revs_up_1clfvV9iBjrPzIso3Sn3aO
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/th...-time-to-unshackle-qantas-20131208-2yzdi.html


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## drsmith (9 December 2013)

A key question though is how much does Holden actually want in assistance ?

As much as it can get I would suggest and then some more. 



> Mr Weatherill, whose state is home to Holden's operations, says the federal government needs to restore $500 million in assistance to the industry.






> Labor says the federal government has advice that a $150 million annual boost to industry support would keep Holden in Australia until 2025.






> The car maker last year agreed with the Labor government to a $275 million assistance package in return for developing and building two new model cars in Australia from 2016.
> 
> However, it is now thought to need as much as $500 million and repeatedly has warned that its local operations are not sustainable without ongoing support.




http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...-holden-kim-carr/story-e6frfku9-1226778348954


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## sptrawler (9 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> Like with the 4-year Gonski funding, I suspect this will be another inglorious back down by the government. The political price will otherwise be too high.
> 
> At a public political level, it's been handled badly.




It will be interesting to see what productivity improvements the workers will have to agree to, in order to secure ongoing assistance?
Especially in light of Glenn Stevens comments, regarding wages and productivity.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-...-says-downturn-inevitable-20131209-2z01i.html


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## drsmith (9 December 2013)

The following offers an insight into the political optics of this in South Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2013/12/09/3907731.htm?site=adelaide

South Australia goes to the polls in the first half of next year.


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## Calliope (9 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> A key question though is how much does Holden actually want in assistance ?
> 
> As much as it can get I would suggest and then some more.
> 
> ...







> A senior government source said Mr Devereux, in the expectation the Coalition would win the election, had told Coalition MPs when he visited Canberra in August that Holden wanted a subsidy of $2500 per car with a guaranteed production of 65,000 cars a year.




Most of the subsidy would go into continuing provide their workers with considerably over-award pay and conditions.



> While the Modern Award base salaries for vehicle builders are in the modest $37,000-$42,000 range, the *base* rates in Holden's agreement are in the $60,000-$80,000 range.


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## overhang (9 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> Most of the subsidy would go into continuing provide their workers with considerably over-award pay and conditions.




Where is this from as its not in the article you linked?  I'd be interested in knowing more about this.  I knew someone who worked for Ford about 5-10 years ago, he was a qualified welder but I don't believe his role required any welding but even back then he was on if I recall about 65-70k and was in a roll that pretty much consisted of pushing a few buttons as part of the production line process.  I imagine they're all overpaid from the car builders right up to the CEO.

I think the daunting thing is when Holden go it will just confirm that manufacturing is dead in Australia.


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## Calliope (9 December 2013)

overhang said:


> Where is this from as its not in the article you linked?  I'd be interested in knowing more about this.  I knew someone who worked for Ford about 5-10 years ago, he was a qualified welder but I don't believe his role required any welding but even back then he was on if I recall about 65-70k and was in a roll that pretty much consisted of pushing a few buttons as part of the production line process.  I imagine they're all overpaid from the car builders right up to the CEO.
> 
> I think the daunting thing is when Holden go it will just confirm that manufacturing is dead in Australia.




See my post No. #13 re link.


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## overhang (9 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> See my post No. #13 re link.




Thanks!
I'm sure there would be equally qualified personal who would work for 50K before penalties to put a few cars together, hopefully those same workers aren't already employed as baggage handlers for Qantas earning 80k.


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## basilio (10 December 2013)

So, Holden want further support to keep production in Australia.

So far the focus on discussion , the entire focus, has been on the cost of labour. There seems to be only one source of information quoted, The Australian.

If Holden want /need more taxpayer support as taxpayers we should get the whole picture of current costs ect.

1) Current payments to US for intellectual rights, divdends ect
2) Payments to overseas parts suppliers particularly when they come from other GM plants. Look at transfer pricing issues
3) General overhead costs of production. Plant costs, power, waste costs and so on
4) Management costs. Salaries paid to top management in total and as a percentage of overall costs. Changes in salaries over 20 years.
5) Middle management costs. As per top management
6) Assembly workers costs. As per above.

Or is it expecting too much in this day and age to look at all aspects of an international business that wants repeated subsidies to stay in operation ?


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## trainspotter (10 December 2013)

Maybe because The Australian is the only newspaper reporting on the matter with objectivity?



> TAXPAYERS are covering about $2500 of the cost of each Australian-made car with subsidies equivalent to as much as $50,000 for every employee directly involved in their manufacture.
> 
> Subsidies to the industry have averaged about $550 million a year for the past six years, not including the benefit of tariffs and the luxury car tax, according to the Productivity Commission.
> 
> ...


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## basilio (10 December 2013)

It's interesting to see the further information from The Australian but I'm not sure if I can agree that The Australian offers the full picture on the question of costs with regard to producing cars.

I'm sure Australian Labour costs are higher than Indonesia, Korea or other low cost assemblers. From the car companies POV they will make the most profit by manufacturing where

1) They can get the best subsidies/financial incentives
2) They can pay the least tax either because the rates are low or  tax enforcement is lax. Or they could have a total tax holiday.
3) They have the best opportunities to use transfer pricing on technology and supplies
4) Labour costs are as low as possible
5) Labour practices are as flexible as possible

In my view all countries have been gamed by the motor industry as it tries to get the best advantage over governments. I'm pretty sure that one way or another the industry has gained "support" from various State and Federal agencies in most of the above areas.

So perhaps it is relevant to ask for all the issues to be questioned rather than focus on reducing wages to the levels of Indonesia etc. I haven't yet seen evidence that The Australian (or anyone else) is asking for answers to all the questions.

______________

That last post  from The Australian did add some worthwhile extra information. But I notice there is no comments on the breakdown of labour costs (staff v managment) or monies paid to overseas  owners.


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## basilio (10 December 2013)

Quick extra point.

If in fact Holden etc are getting the equivalent of $50,000 a year subsidy per employee (and I suspect it would be more with side subsidies) isn't this at least 70% of the current wages ?

Lots of questions and not just about trying to return Australian workers to the wage levels of Indonesian counterparts.


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## trainspotter (10 December 2013)

WHERE THE HELL DID INDONESIA COME INTO THIS? Average wage is $100 per month in Indo so NO ONE is saying wages should be dropping back to that level ??????????????????

If you read the article you will see where the manufacturing costs are thus:



> Manufacturing costs added $2000, *mainly as a result of labour costs*, which it said were double the cost per vehicle compared with European manufacturers, and four times the cost of *Asia*.




See ASIA and NOT Indonesia !!!!!!!!!!! So labour costs in ASIA would contribute about $500 per car to the manufacturing costs.

Talk about selective comprehension. 

Yes yes yes General Motors is already selling in Indonesia under the Chevrolet banner.

http://www.chevrolet.co.id/shopping-tools/dealer-locator.html

GM shut down their Indo plant in 2005 but they are looking at reinvesting because Indonesia is the fastest growing car market in the world. Around a million units are expected to be sold next year. It's become the next big thing as demand in China and India slows down and manufacturers look for new places to do business. As the Australian car market is in decline ... well I will let you figure this one out.


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## Calliope (10 December 2013)

basilio said:


> Quick extra point.
> 
> If in fact Holden etc are getting the equivalent of $50,000 a year subsidy per employee (and I suspect it would be more with side subsidies) isn't this at least 70% of the current wages ?




What is your point? You are obviously not a taxpayer. If you were. you wouldn't be so cavalier about subsidising each of these parasites to the extent of $50.000, so that they can be paid more than double the Award wages.



> Holden, which has about 2000 staff directly involved in manufacturing at its Elizabeth plant in South Australia and its engine plant in Port Melbourne, received $96m in subsidies last year, or just under $50,000 per employee



.


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## sptrawler (10 December 2013)

Unless GM decides to base production of one of its 'world' cars here, it will never be profitable. 
The manufacturing facilties in Australia are competing with overseas plants that have huge through put.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/holden_152.7_million_in_the_red

Interesting reading, why doesn't Holden stop playing around and either grow production for export markets, or shut down?


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## drsmith (10 December 2013)

A negotiating tactic from the government or does it just want to get the writing from the wall into the public domain ?



> Acting Prime Minister Warren Truss says he has written to Mr Devereux asking for an immediate clarification about the company's plans for its Australian operations.




Whatever it is, it's certainly hard ball.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...-immediate-statement-on-holden-future/5147240


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## waterbottle (10 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> Like with the 4-year Gonski funding, I suspect this will be another inglorious back down by the government. The political price will otherwise be too high.
> 
> At a public political level, it's been handled badly.
> 
> ...




Stupid question: Is there any way that the manufacturing skills could be salvaged and holden be allowed to die?


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## basilio (10 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> What is your point? You are obviously not a taxpayer. If you were. you wouldn't be so cavalier about subsidising each of these parasites to the extent of $50.000, so that they can be paid more than double the Award wages.
> 
> .




I wasn't being cavalier. I just noted how much of a subsidy was being being paid.

Its interesting isn't it how on this forum (and other places) the *only, only, only only* issue that's raised are the wages and working conditions of assembly line employees.  And currently your only source of reference for that is The Australian. (I accept very little from The Australian without independent  evidence - they just misrepresent so many issues they are a joke)

But going back to my main point. There are many more questions about the costs of car production in Australia than simply assembly line wages. In this conversation The Australian and others are just trying to drive down wages as far as possible with little discussion of other issues. (but I will acknowledge that trainspotters last post did open the debate further.)

I think we are being gamed on this .


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## Calliope (10 December 2013)

basilio said:


> Its interesting isn't it how on this forum (and other places) the *only, only, only only* issue that's raised are the wages and working conditions of assembly line employees.  And currently your only source of reference for that is The Australian.* (I accept very little from The Australian without independent  evidence - they just misrepresent so many issues they are a joke)[*




Could you please provide links to the "independent" sources ( maybe ABC, Fairfax or Tribune ) that rebut what The Australian has published. e.g.



> While the Modern Award base salaries for vehicle builders are in the modest $37,000-$42,000 range, the base rates in Holden's agreement are in the $60,000-$80,000 range



.


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## banco (11 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> What is your point? You are obviously not a taxpayer. If you were. you wouldn't be so cavalier about subsidising each of these parasites to the extent of $50.000, so that they can be paid more than double the Award wages.
> 
> .




The $50,000 figure is a bit disingenuous given it doesn't factor in the related companies that depend on Holden for their survival (components manufacturers etc).


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## trainspotter (11 December 2013)

Not going to tender on the ageing fleet of limos for the PM's office?



> *THE Prime Minister's flagship fleet of high-security Holden limos is expected to be replaced with bomb and gas proof BMWs after Government sources claimed Holden had failed to bid for a lucrative $4 million plus contract to replace the ageing convoy of armoured cars.*
> 
> And a further armada of 20 German built cars will need to be leased for the G20 Summit in Brisbane next year - at a cost of $2 million - with foreign leaders prevented from using the Holden Caprice as it didn't meet their standards to protect against terrorist attacks.
> 
> ...




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...et-of-limousines/story-fni0xqrc-1226780185117

Bye bye Holden ... don't let the door hit your backside on the way out.


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## drsmith (11 December 2013)

It's official now.



> HOLDEN will close its Australian operations, including Elizabeth in 2017, the company has told its South Australian workforce.




http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...n-decision-nears/story-fnda1bsz-1226780247370



> Holden has confirmed that it will cease manufacturing in Australia by 2017, saying it expected the move would cost 2900 jobs.
> 
> In a statement, the company said it would  "transition to a national sales company in Australia and New Zealand".
> 
> Holden will "discontinue vehicle and engine manufacturing and significantly reduce its engineering operations in Australia by the end of 2017", the statement says.




http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/...facturing-2900-jobs-to-go-20131211-2z5kr.html

It's also been advised in Parliament.


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## FxTrader (11 December 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Bye bye Holden ... don't let the door hit your backside on the way out.




I must admit to some surprise at the level of animosity expressed here toward Holden.  Now it's official they are pulling out, the detractors can rejoice...

*Holden will cease operations in 2017 *
http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/holden-will-cease-operations-in-2017/story-fnii5sms-1226780690797

Even though I work for a Japanese car company, I am no advocate for the demise of the local industry.  The facts are that our subsidies here were modest compared with other countries.  Having said this, Holden and Ford were building cars that increasingly few wanted to buy with no export plan to justify local production at such low domestic volume.

http://theconversation.com/factcheck-do-other-countries-subsidise-their-car-industry-more-than-we-do-16308


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## trainspotter (11 December 2013)

I have always been a Holden man but the display of arrogance from management and their hand out mentality has changed my mind. At least this gives the factory workers 3 years to retrain themselves and acquire a new set of skills. Ford 2016, Holden 2017 and Toyota 2018. RIP to the manufacturing of motor vehicles in Australia. :axt:


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## DB008 (11 December 2013)

What about tariffs?

Try to export to Asia can add a huge price onto a car, but we let Japanese/Korean cars in for next to nothing....


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## Macquack (11 December 2013)

trainspotter said:


> If you read the article you will see where the manufacturing costs are thus:
> 
> See ASIA and NOT Indonesia !!!!!!!!!!! *So labour costs in ASIA would contribute about $500 per car to the manufacturing costs.*
> Talk about selective comprehension.




A bit of selective comprehension on your part, trainspotter.

Where did you come to the conclusion that:- "labour costs in ASIA would contribute about $500 per car to the manufacturing costs".

You could get a job with treasury with meaningless deductions like that.


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## Garpal Gumnut (11 December 2013)

Holden are gone, and now is not the time for politics.

We need a strategic plan for manufacturing in Australia, rather than a hodge podge bandaiding by government.

I partly quote from the Prime Minister in Parliiament just now.

gg


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## Logique (12 December 2013)

Labor would have just shovelled the money out, and Holden would still have left. 

Sen Kim Carr was a forlorn figure in the Senate yesterday.


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## Tink (12 December 2013)

Agree with you, Logique.
This has been going on for years, Ford, Holden.

The media and Labor are making out like they are all sacked for Christmas
They still have another four years.


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## noco (12 December 2013)

Logique said:


> Labor would have just shovelled the money out, and Holden would still have left.
> 
> Sen Kim Carr was a forlorn figure in the Senate yesterday.




I am certain the decsion by Holden to quit making cars in Australia was made many moons ago and is it any wonder with the hight cost of Labour. The shovelling of tax payers money into a domed industry would have been gobbled up by GMH with glee.

The Labor Party could not save Ford and there was no way would have saved Holden....The Labor Party must be very thankful that this decsion was not made before Setember 7.

I read in the Australian a couple of days ago whereby these semi skilled workers are paid between $60,000 and $80,000 per annum when the award rate rate is $42.000 per annum. So we can all thank the militant unions for the demise of the car industry with their demands for higher wages and conditions.

It was also quoted that Holden is preparing redundancy packages of between $300,000 and $500,000 so why is the Government considering assistance for these sacked workers? 

These quotes were made in the Australian a couple of days ago. 

I would say they (the workers) are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Calliope (12 December 2013)

Tink said:


> Agree with you, Logique.
> This has been going on for years, Ford, Holden.
> 
> The media and Labor are making out like they are all sacked for Christmas
> They still have another four years.




And recriminations will continue for years even though Holden's failure can be sheeted home to the enterprise agreement they concocted with the AMWU. Toyota will inevitably fold for the same reason.



> Now that Holden has announced its departure, we need to consider the Toyota situation, which will come to a head with a vote on its enterprise agreement tomorrow. In September 2011, thousands of Toyota workers went on a protracted strike to get a 12 per cent pay rise. The company caved in; a deal with a 13 per cent pay rise between then and March 2015 was given. Base rates for technical and trade workers are in the $65,000 to $97,000 range with generous allowances, loadings and penalties on top.
> 
> The Toyota enterprise agreement lists its "purpose" as "to achieve TMCA's success as a Global Company" yet no single business contract could guarantee its failure more. This document, as much as Holden's, reflects an extraordinary level of union control over daily workplace organisation.
> 
> When Toyota wants to hire someone, a union (employee) representative must sit in every single job interview as "an observer". Heaven knows what they exactly are looking out for. Perhaps they are scrutinising for union talent or maybe their presence is to convey that Toyota is a totally union-controlled company and union membership is compulsory. A table in the agreement sets out exactly how many union representatives the company has to have in every section of the workplace and 10 paid union training days a year is given to union reps.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nion-sealed-fate/story-fnkdypbm-1226781040913


----------



## noco (12 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> And recriminations will continue for years even though Holden's failure can be sheeted home to the enterprise agreement they concocted with the AMWU. Toyota will inevitably fold for the same reason.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nion-sealed-fate/story-fnkdypbm-1226781040913




Yes Calliope, the unions have done a great jpb in destroying our manufacturing industry in Australia and not only in the car induusrty.

But this is what Socialism (Communism) is all about.....breack down the ecomomy of a country, make workers discontented, play one against the other, criticize a conservative Government for not doing enough for workers and it becomes rife for a socialist take over.

Gillard and Rudd demonstrated this very well.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

Macquack said:


> A bit of selective comprehension on your part, trainspotter.
> 
> Where did you come to the conclusion that:- "labour costs in ASIA would contribute about $500 per car to the manufacturing costs".
> 
> You could get a job with treasury with meaningless deductions like that.




OH FFS Macquack !! Post #30 where I pasted an article from the Australian who were quoting HOLDEN ! Labour costs contribute $2000 towards the cost of manufacturing a car in Australia. If they were to build the same car in ASIA then the labour costs would be $500 !!!!!!



> *Manufacturing costs added $2000,* mainly as a result of *labour costs*, which it said were double the cost per vehicle compared with European manufacturers, and *four times the cost of Asia*.
> 
> Holden, which has about 2000 staff directly involved in manufacturing at its Elizabeth plant in South Australia and its engine plant in Port Melbourne, received $96m in subsidies last year, or just under $50,000 per employee.




So therefore with simple arithmetic $2000 dived by 4 = what exactly ????

Please try and keep up with the selective comprehension. You could get a job at the ABC with meaningless attacks like that !!!!

*Back on topic:*

Page 55 and 56 is the table of pay scales for "Technicians" (read unskilled workers) Not bad money if you can get it eh?

http://www.fwc.gov.au/awards/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG838750-2.pdf


----------



## Calliope (12 December 2013)

Also;



> Let's be clear: GM Holden's decision was based on its inability to make a profit, even though it was receiving $3750 in assistance to produce each car. GM's global chief Dan Akerson was unequivocal about the factors involved: "The decision to end manufacturing in Australia reflects the perfect storm of negative influences the automobile industry faces in Australia, including the sustained strength of the Australian dollar, high cost of production, small domestic market and arguably the most competitive and fragmented auto market in the world."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...or-local-drivers/story-e6frg71x-1226781021470

GM got it wrong as usual. We know it was all Tony Abbott's fault.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

Wouldn't it be delicious if the following equation occurred?

*Ford* announces closure under Gillard/Rudd government

*Holden* announces closure under Abbott government

*Toyota *announces closure under Shorten government.

Happenstance anyone?


----------



## basilio (12 December 2013)

> Page 55 and 56 is the table of pay scales for "Technicians" (read unskilled workers) Not bad money if you can get it eh?
> 
> http://www.fwc.gov.au/awards/tracee/...AG838750-2.pdf




I had a look at that document Trainspotter. Good find.

It's 150 pages long and shows just how complex the operations are. Not surprising considering the size of teh operations.

Wages rates in 2010 for Unskilled employees are $46k - $51k

Trade employees who have skills equivalent to plumbers , electricians,  ect are on $50k - $70k a year

Technical staff are in fact responsible for designing and maintaining the extensive range of very complex machinery. (It's not  just banging wheels on) Their wages range from $67k to $101k at the very top level.

*There is no feather bedding here*. The Australian has decided that because the absolute base rate for  factory wages is $44k anything above that is unnecessary. In the real world if you can't pay good workers a fair wage you won't keep them. And making a good car requires well trained and motivated employee partners.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

basilio said:


> *There is no feather bedding here*. The Australian has decided that because the absolute base rate for  factory wages is $44k anything above that is unnecessary.* In the real world if you can't pay good workers a fair wage you won't keep them.* And making a good car requires well trained and motivated employee partners.




And Holden has decided that labour costs have contributed to their decision to leave Australia. Toyota soon to follow.


----------



## Macquack (12 December 2013)

trainspotter said:


> OH FFS Macquack !! Post #30 where I pasted an article from the Australian who were quoting HOLDEN ! Labour costs contribute $2000 towards the cost of manufacturing a car in Australia. *If they were to build the same car in ASIA then the labour costs would be $500 !!!!!!*
> 
> 
> So therefore with simple arithmetic $2000 dived by 4 = what exactly ????
> ...




You still don't comprehend the information that YOU posted in post #30.



> Holden and Toyota both say their *manufacturing costs are about $3750 per car higher in Australia *than in other markets.
> 
> Holden's submission to the Productivity Commission inquiry said the higher cost of Australian-made parts accounted for $1500 of the additional cost of local vehicles, compared with imports, while transport added $250.
> 
> Manufacturing costs added $2000, mainly as a result of labour costs, which it said were double the cost per vehicle compared with European manufacturers, and four times the cost of Asia.




The $2000 represents the *additional cost* to manufacture in Australia due to higher labour costs (it does not represent the total labour cost).

There is no correlation whatsoever to your calculation of a magical $500 labour cost of manufacturing a car in Asia.

Have another read of your own post.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

Macquack said:


> You still don't comprehend the information that YOU posted in post #30.
> 
> The $2000 represents the *additional cost* to manufacture in Australia due to higher labour costs (it does not represent the total labour cost).
> 
> ...




Once more for comedy purposes only.  *L-A-B-O-U-R *



> Manufacturing costs added $2000, *mainly as a result of labour costs*, which it said were double the cost per vehicle compared with European manufacturers, and *four times the cost of Asia.*




Labour costs NOT manufacturing costs DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Please, please, please try and keep up or do you want me to type slower for you?



> Holden and Toyota both say their *manufacturing costs are about $3750 *per car higher in Australia than in other markets.


----------



## Macquack (12 December 2013)

I give up.

Can someone please help me out on this one.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

Macquack said:


> I give up.
> 
> Can someone please help me out on this one.




Let me help you out Macquack. Basilio suggested in post #32 that Indonesia *LABOUR* costs that we should be on a par with them.

Basilio 







> Lots of questions and not just about trying to return Australian workers to the wage levels of Indonesian counterparts.




The labour costs represent approx $2000 to build a car in Australia as per post #30 and quoted by Holden and Toyota.



> Holden and Toyota both say their manufacturing costs are about *$3750 per car higher* in Australia than in other markets.
> 
> Holden's submission to the Productivity Commission inquiry said the higher cost of *Australian-made parts accounted for $1500 *of the additional cost of local vehicles, compared with imports, while *transport added $250*.
> 
> *Manufacturing costs added $2000, mainly as a result of labour costs*, which it said were double the cost per vehicle compared with European manufacturers, and four times the cost of Asia.




Let's try some maths shall we?

 .        $3750 Manufacturing Costs
- $1500 higher cost of Australian-made parts 
- $   250 transport costs
= *$2000* *LABOUR costs*
/ 4     The amount saved by building a  car in ASIA LABOUR costs
=$  500 LABOUR costs in ASIA

Or would you prefer me to type this in crayon?

It is not $3750 manufacturing costs PLUS $2000 in labour costs ... got it now?


----------



## Macquack (12 December 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Let me help you out Macquack. Basilio suggested in post #32 that Indonesia *LABOUR* costs that we should be on a par with them.
> 
> Basilio
> 
> ...




IT IS NOT $3750 manufacturing costs.

It is *$3750 higher *manufacturing costs in Australia *than in other markets*.

You can lose the smart ar*e comments.


----------



## overhang (12 December 2013)

I'm a little surprised GM would on one hand begin importing Holdens to the States again and then a short time later close down our production line, that seems a little odd.

Even if Holden had stayed there still would have been many jobs lost in the sector considering Holden already stated that they intended to source more parts internationally for the 2017 Commodore.  The current model receives about 50% parts locally and was estimated to be 30% in 2017.

I'd be interested to know that if workers were paid at the award rate if this would result in substantial cost reduction to the point of economic viability.  Every single new model costs more in research and development than the last and we simply don't have the market to sustain such costs without an export program.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2013)

overhang said:


> I'm a little surprised GM would on one hand begin importing Holdens to the States again and then a short time later close down our production line, that seems a little odd.
> 
> Even if Holden had stayed there still would have been many jobs lost in the sector considering Holden already stated that they intended to source more parts internationally for the 2017 Commodore.  The current model receives about 50% parts locally and was estimated to be 30% in 2017.
> 
> I'd be interested to know that if workers were paid at the award rate if this would result in substantial cost reduction to the point of economic viability.  Every single new model costs more in research and development than the last and we simply don't have the market to sustain such costs without an export program.




G.M in the U.S, from memory, limited how many cars could be imported from Australia. Due to pressure from the GM unions in the U.S.
Holden Australia was becoming a cottage industry for G.M and unless GM was prepared to build a mass export program, Holden was destined to fail.
To put it another way, if either Ford or Holden were viable, private equity would jump in and buy them.


----------



## overhang (12 December 2013)

sptrawler said:


> G.M in the U.S, from memory, limited how many cars could be imported from Australia. Due to pressure from the GM unions in the U.S.
> Holden Australia was becoming a cottage industry for G.M and unless GM was prepared to build a mass export program, Holden was destined to fail.
> To put it another way, if either Ford or Holden were viable, private equity would jump in and buy them.




Yes I believe you are right but wasn't that during the height of the GFC when Pontiac were importing them and this caused outrage as many jobs were lost in Detroit whilst at the same time importing Holdens.  Pontiac were subsequently phased out by GM during this time.  I don't believe they have restrictions on the number we import now however they have said there will be minimal advertisement for the car over there.


----------



## trainspotter (12 December 2013)

Macquack said:


> IT IS NOT $3750 manufacturing costs.
> 
> It is *$3750 higher *manufacturing costs in Australia *than in other markets*.
> 
> You can lose the smart ar*e comments.




Dear God .. comprehension is not your forte'


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 December 2013)

Macquack said:


> The $2000 represents the *additional cost* to manufacture in Australia due to higher labour costs (it does not represent the total labour cost).



I won't claim to know much about car manufacturing specifically, but in practically any other manufacturing industry there is a huge "scale of economy" factor at play. And scale is one thing that Holden is clearly lacking.

If you really are Rolls Royce then smaller scale manufacturing is viable since it's a prestige product with pricing power. It just doesn't need to compete directly on price, quality being far more important.

But if it's a mass market car then price matters. Trouble is, Holden and Ford have largely focused on building a "mass market" car that doesn't actually have a big market. Basically, they've just stuck to an old concept of a big sedan with a big engine and sat around as the market for those disappeared. 

Once you take out sales to government departments and individuals who bought them for the sake of supporting Australian industry, the actual market for cars like the Commodore is pretty damn small these days. It's an old concept, and not what the market wants. Small market, lack of scale = there's the problem.

Holden / Ford basically seem to be living in the past. The old Holden Vs Ford rivalry hasn't been of real relevance for a generation now, and yet they still carry on as though it matters. Apart from a few sales to cashed up bogans, that war died out long ago and Toyota etc were the winners simply because they got on with the job of making the cars people want to buy rather than fighting a faux battle.

Yes, I do realise that the Commodore isn't the only vehicle Holden makes but it and its' predecessors have clearly been their primary focus for as long as long as anyone can remember. Clinging to that idea, seems to have diverted far too much effort away from where it was really needed and by the time they woke up it was a case of too little, too late.


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> I won't claim to know much about car manufacturing specifically, but in practically any other manufacturing industry there is a huge "scale of economy" factor at play. And scale is one thing that Holden is clearly lacking.
> 
> If you really are Rolls Royce then smaller scale manufacturing is viable since it's a prestige product with pricing power. It just doesn't need to compete directly on price, quality being far more important.
> 
> ...




The reason they didn't adapt, was because they didn't have to, any short fall in sales was picked up by the taxpayer.
As was proven on many occassions, Holden came up with cutting edge designs and inovations.
The problem was, the parent company is parochial U.S.
Now the Government has said put up or shut up, the company has shown its true colours, or as GM would say colors.
Best the government starts and demands companies value add, or sod off.


----------



## IFocus (13 December 2013)

David Llewellyn-Smith writing a interesting bit looking at the bigger picture

Holden and the spread of Australian disease



> The departure of Holden is the writing on the wall for Australia's current macroeconomic settings. Our famous good fortune may bail us out once more, but we shouldn't count on it, writes David Llewellyn-Smith.
> 
> Four years ago, I started a blog called Houses and Holes. It took its name from the principle of chronicling (and fighting) the rise of an Australian elite intent on squandering our extraordinary good fortune.
> 
> The departure of Ford and Holden has proved my basic Dutch disease thesis right, but it also demonstrates that the calamitous failure of leadership that led to this moment remains firmly in control.




Worth a read for those that want to move beyond the rhetoric.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...-and-the-spread-of-australian-disease/5151850


One thing that bothers me is with the decline in manufacturing that everyone is cheering where are the skills training going to come from as mining, oil and gas just import people with skills rather than offer training.

Are we yet to lose a generation of our youth.


----------



## waterbottle (13 December 2013)

IFocus said:


> Are we yet to lose a generation of our youth.




Yes.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 December 2013)

Overall (not specifically Holden) we're basically pursuing a national strategy of maximising short term gains and not worrying about the future.

It's a similar concept to an individual pursuing their life and career. At the age of 18, the maximum return in the short term can be gained by working in whatever job you can get, living at home and spending your income partying and traveling. More money than you'd ever get working part time whilst studying, no real expenses, and life's one big party.

But most of those who work in McDonald's etc won't progress to management. They'll just keep flipping burgers until they quit or are fired. Most of those who spend every Saturday night partying won't end up as a successful, or even unsuccessful, DJ or promotor etc. They'll just join the queue, hand over their money, spend the rest on drinks, and stumble out at 5am. Rinse and repeat.

Those who are willing to forego benefits today usually do end up better off in the long term. A point comes where flipping burgers all day and parting all night just doesn't equal success either financially or personally and the same applies to Australia as a country. Is our future really digging holes in the ground? Is that the best we can do? What happens when the gas runs out and/or the world no longer wants coal? The proverbial writing is on the wall there - we're pursuing a strategy that isn't likely to work in the long term even though it offers the highest return today.


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2013)

IFocus said:


> David Llewellyn-Smith writing a interesting bit looking at the bigger picture
> 
> Holden and the spread of Australian disease
> 
> ...




Yes that is as good as one of our rants.


----------



## noco (14 December 2013)

The closure of Holden in Australia has been under consideration for the past 3 years.

What is all the fuss about?

Eack worker will receive a redudancy package of between $300,000 and $500,000.

Quite a nice retirement gift as far as I am concerned and the tax payers of Australia would have subsidised GMH if we were mug enough to do so.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...east-three-years/story-fnkjkgzz-1226782628206


----------



## McLovin (14 December 2013)

IFocus said:


> David Llewellyn-Smith writing a interesting bit looking at the bigger picture
> 
> Holden and the spread of Australian disease
> 
> ...




Boy that guy has an ego. 

The car industry has been shrinking since the 1980's. In fact from 2003 to now Holden had already shed about 75% of its workforce. But instead the whole thing can be summed as...



> The departure of Ford and Holden has proved my basic Dutch disease thesis right




Of course it might have accelerated the trend, but to claim it's all because of a high AUD doesn't seem to acknowledge the last 20 years.

I used to like reading his blog but his ego seems to be getting in the way now.


----------



## drsmith (14 December 2013)

The following article is an interesting read.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/hold...-general-motors-ecosystem-20131213-2zcyb.html


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 December 2013)

noco said:


> The closure of Holden in Australia has been under consideration for the past 3 years.
> 
> What is all the fuss about?
> 
> Eack worker will receive a redudancy package of between $300,000 and $500,000.



The current Holden employees may well get a nice redundancy package.

But will Holden be offering that same package to the other 10,000 or so affected workers at other companies who make parts or supply services to Holden? I very much doubt it.

And can someone get a job with them after 2017 and claim wages and/or redundancy? Of course not - the jobs are gone and whilst current direct Holden employees may be looked after, countless others will lose out.

The real issue however is not about Holden per se, but what it symbolises. We're now at the "end game" stage with manufacturing decline, the point at which we are no longer seeing falls in output or the loss of individual companies but rather, the complete annihilation of entire industries of national significance. 

We had 5 car manufacturers (Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Nissan) plus an entire support base of parts manufacturing, logistics etc less than a generation ago. We are now faced with the the very real prospect that within 5 years there will be nothing left at all. Gone, the whole lot simply gone.

It's not just cars either. Steel is the most basic of heavy manufacturing industries that any nation can have, and Australia just happens to have an abundance of the raw materials needed to produce steel. Not that long ago we had 3 full scale steel mills (2 in NSW, 1 in SA all operated by BHP) and a major ferro-alloys producer in Tasmania (TEMCO). Today the Newcastle steel mill is completely gone and the one at Port Kembla is only operating one furnace, Whyalla is struggling financially and TEMCO is only still running due to the efforts of its' major suppliers trying to keep it in business. The whole industry is well down the same track as the car industry - the time bomb is ticking.

Or what about aluminium? We had 6 smelters but now there are 5 following the closure of one in NSW. It's no secret that the remaining smelters in Qld, NSW, Vic and Tas are all struggling too. The alumina refining industry has similar woes particularly in the NT.

Or what about oil refining? We had 10 refineries a generation ago, now there are only 6, one of which is about to close and another has already closed one of its' production lines. So that's 10 down to 4.5 with the industry completely gone in SA and to be gone next year in NSW too (remaining refineries are in Qld, Vic and WA - there was never an oil refining industry in ACT, Tas or NT). In due course, it's not hard to see the remaining 4.5 refineries will end up going the same way as the car industry.

I doubt that too many Australians are overly concerned specifically about Holden. It's what it symbolises that matters - Australian manufacturing is within sight of being completely wiped out apart from the odd cottage industry here and there. 

Sure, we can always import everything. Well, we can until there's some sort of crisis and then we're completely screwed. National security, not profit per se, was the the reason for encouraging many of these industries to set up in the first place and it's inevitable that such concerns will arise again at some future time. Steel, aluminium and ferro-alloys were all set up very specifically for strategic reasons, to the point that the Australian Government did itself build and operate an alumina refinery and aluminium smelter until a private owner came along willing to take it over.

It's the big picture that has me and many others worried, not Holden per se. Constant growth in mineral exports is, by its' very nature, and unsustainable strategy. I'm not saying we shouldn't mine coal etc, but it's not going to sustain us economically for the long term.


----------



## sails (14 December 2013)

Unbelievable - this guy is seen laughing and joking when he thought the cameras weren't rolling - and then turns on the tears:


----------



## prawn_86 (15 December 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's the big picture that has me and many others worried, not Holden per se. Constant growth in mineral exports is, by its' very nature, and unsustainable strategy. I'm not saying we shouldn't mine coal etc, but it's not going to sustain us economically for the long term.




Great post as usual Smurf.

Not that anything will change, but i would be interested to hear your thoughts as to how Aus could possibly turn it around?


----------



## noco (15 December 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> The current Holden employees may well get a nice redundancy package.
> 
> But will Holden be offering that same package to the other 10,000 or so affected workers at other companies who make parts or supply services to Holden? I very much doubt it.
> 
> ...




Yes Smurf I agree with what you are referring to regarding some vehicle parts made by subcontractors but the the Australian made content for a Holden is only 25% and you may be right that it could affect 10,000 workers.

But the majority of those subcontractors are not solely dependant on Holden and in most cases manufacture other products unrelated to vehicles. So in many cases these suppliers have until 2017 to retool and find new markets for new products.....If they don't then they are not very good business people. I once had a manufacturing business in Brisbane supplying a product to 17


----------



## noco (15 December 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> The current Holden employees may well get a nice redundancy package.
> 
> But will Holden be offering that same package to the other 10,000 or so affected workers at other companies who make parts or supply services to Holden? I very much doubt it.
> 
> ...




Yes Smurf I agree with what you are referring to regarding some vehicle parts made by subcontractors but the the Australian made content for a Holden is only 25% and you may be right that it could affect 10,000 workers.

But the majority of those subcontractors are not solely dependant on Holden and in most cases manufacture other products unrelated to vehicles. So in many cases these suppliers have until 2017 to retool and find new markets for new products.....If they don't then they are not very good business people. I once had a manufacturing business in Brisbane supplying a product to 17 Woolworths stores....This represented some 25% of my production and when I reached that level I considered that proportion was at a top level. I did not want to be reliant on just one customer and I am sure the companies producing certain parts for Holden would also have other irons in the fire.
You went on to mention other industries like the steel, aluminium and other manufacturing industries that have closed over the past years but you did not suggest any reasons why.

I am old enough to have lived through the torrid times of the 50's and 60's when militant communist dominated unions would strike at the drop of a hat for many demands of higher wages, increased holiday leave from 2 weeks in time to 4 weeks and more now, 17.5 % leave loading, penalty rates, susperannuation and I could go on and on.....So the rot has been setting in for 6 decades and we are now suffering from those affects from the added costs....Add to that all the Government red tape, company taxes, payroll tax, the carbon tax, increased electricty costs and what is the end result....I could go on and on......Do I have to say any more? 

Holden has been considering their closer for 3 years. It has been forced to reach a decision just as Ford had to.

My last question is how are we expected to compete with such high costs of manufacturing?

PS. My apology realating to post #79.....I lost connection at the time.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 December 2013)

noco said:


> Yes Smurf I agree with what you are referring to regarding some vehicle parts made by subcontractors but the the Australian made content for a Holden is only 25% and you may be right that it could affect 10,000 workers.
> 
> But the majority of those subcontractors are not solely dependant on Holden and in most cases manufacture other products unrelated to vehicles. So in many cases these suppliers have until 2017 to retool and find new markets for new products.....If they don't then they are not very good business people. I once had a manufacturing business in Brisbane supplying a product to 17 Woolworths stores....This represented some 25% of my production and when I reached that level I considered that proportion was at a top level. I did not want to be reliant on just one customer and I am sure the companies producing certain parts for Holden would also have other irons in the fire.
> You went on to mention other industries like the steel, aluminium and other manufacturing industries that have closed over the past years but you did not suggest any reasons why.
> ...




Good points noco.

I woud imagine that a car manufacturer given a choice between Thailand or Australia in which to build a new car or set up a new manufacturing industry, would have a simple choice.

Australia has a workplace where unions in the recent past have collected money from employers to ensure re-election of officials, whose officials have scammed money for their own benefit, have little governance and act as if a law unto themselves. Workers spend about 35 hours a week actually working, and get paid extra when not working and on holidays.

Why would a multinational manufacturer set up shop in Australia?

It ain't brain science.

gg


----------



## sails (15 December 2013)

Some years ago, I remember a relative (rusted on laborite!) who was trumpeting the accomplishments of the unions and how much good they have done for the Australian worker.  I suggested that it might not end well as we are becoming an increasing part of a global market and that these same workers who have benefited may find themselves priced out of a job as time goes by.

  It's not about greed for the business owner - it's about competing and being able to actually sell your product at a fair price.


----------



## burglar (15 December 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ... Workers spend about 35 hours a week actually working, and get paid extra when not working and on holidays ...




German workers get paid extra too ... but it's a bonus which is productivity linked.


----------



## Chris45 (15 December 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I woud imagine that a car manufacturer given a choice between Thailand or Australia in which to build a new car or set up a new manufacturing industry, would have a simple choice.



I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

*The 2017 Holden Commodore will be made in China*
http://www.news.com.au/national/the...be-made-in-china/story-fncynjr2-1226783057648

Thank you unions! What was that about "The workers, united, ..."?



> THE Holden Commodore of the future will be as Australian as the shirts on our backs: it will likely be made in China.
> 
> To gain approval to develop a new Commodore, General Motors did a top-secret deal with Holden to pair the next generation sedan with a Buick that was originally exclusive to the Chinese market.
> 
> ...


----------



## IFocus (15 December 2013)

McLovin said:


> I used to like reading his blog but his ego seems to be getting in the way now.





Yes unfortunately the ego is out there.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 December 2013)

Chris45 said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
> 
> *The 2017 Holden Commodore will be made in China*



I doubt they'll sell too many of them.

A significant number of current buyers would only be buying them because it's Australian with it's associated history and/or because they specifically want a 6 cyl rear wheel drive car. 

Faced with the option of a Chinese front wheel drive Commodore, I expect that most will end up buying some other car instead.


----------



## trainspotter (18 December 2013)

100 million for 2900 workers? 



> Prime Minister Tony Abbott has announced a $100 million fund to help displaced automotive manufacturing industry workers find new jobs in South Australia and Victoria following Holden’s decision to stop production in 2017.
> 
> Abbott told reporters the $100 million fund would be used to “invest in potential employment-generating projects in South Australia and in Victoria”.
> 
> The Federal Government will contribute $60 million to the fund. A further $12 million will come from the Victorian Government, while Abbott said the government was negotiating with South Australia to match Victoria’s contribution and was hopeful of securing “$20 million perhaps from Holden”.




http://www.caradvice.com.au/264663/prime-minister-announces-100m-fund-displaced-holden-workers/



> It's no wonder the unions are angry about Holden closing. Car unions charge about $800 a year in fees to Holden workers who are effectively forced to join the union.
> *With 2900 jobs going, that's potentially $2.3 million in lost annual revenue to those unions.* It looks like there'll be forced redundancies among union officials. Who knows what their payouts will be?




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/ho...-good-thing-20131214-2zdvv.html#ixzz2nnaZMFSA


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2013)

After all the posturing by Labor about maintaining government handouts, to keep Holden going.
We find Holden cannot survive without increasing output i.e exporting.
Surprise, surprise.lol

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/...picture-for-auto-industry-20131220-2zqhg.html

Lets not let facts get in the way off Abbott bashing. 
Funny how this report wasn't front page on the SMH, Abbott's reluctance to pour good money after bad was.


----------



## noco (24 December 2013)

Can somebody please expalin to me why the State and Federal Governments are combining to hand out $100,000,000 to retrain these Holden workers who become redundant in 2017.

With thier redundancy pay and ex amount of superannuation they should be set for a life of comfortable retirement. 

Do they really need to be retrained? I doubt if any of them would want to be retrained.

They can all thank the unions....but the big losers will be the Labor Party for loss of income from the unions.......something like $800 per union member per year.

No wonder Bill Shorten is jumping up and down. 



And all the Labour Government wants to do is blame Abbott.

If this is correct, it is an absolute disgrace.



ONLY $150 million a year will save Holden? Rubbish. The Holden Enterprise Agreement is the document that has utterly sunk Holden's prospects. It defies belief that someone in the company isn't being held to account for it.


Holden's management masks a union culture beyond most people's comprehension. Employment costs spiralled way beyond community standards long ago. Neither "pay freezes" nor more money will save Holden, but getting the Fair Work Commission to dissolve the agreement and put all workers on the award wage might be a start.


In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, "hardship payments" of $3750 were given to each worker.


The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden's workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should.


Many people who work at Holden don't actually work for Holden; they work for the union. Occupational health and safety people are given 10 days' paid time off a year to be trained by the union. Most companies do not allow unions to train their OH&S people because the knowledge is used to control the workplace to the benefit of the union.


Union delegates are also allowed up to 10 paid days a year for union training in how to be effective union delegates and two of these delegates are entitled to an extra Holden sponsorship of one paid month off to "further their industrial and/or leadership development".


Holden's rules on hiring casuals are shocking and unheard of in today's market. The agreement forbids Holden from hiring casuals except when a "short-term increase in workload, or other unusual circumstances occurs". If this situation arises Holden has to "consult and reach agreement" with the union. Further, "Engagement of the agreed number of casual personnel will be for the agreed specified tasks and the agreed specified periods." If any of this changes, Holden must get union agreement again. After three months of continuous full-time work a casual must be made permanent. It is impossible to run a business like this.


An ex-employee from Adelaide , on condition of anonymity, consented to an interview yesterday. He described the workforce as "over-managed", with one team leader for every six workers on the production line, when one for every 25 workers would suffice.


He said "some of us workers felt it wasn't necessary to get paid what we were getting paid to do the jobs we were  doing", adding that their work is probably worth about "20 bucks an hour". A few years back, mates took redundancy packages in the order of "$280k plus". Workers are "like sheep" that blindly follow the union leadership. At induction, new workers are ushered into one-on-one meetings with the union rep who heavies them into joining. "It is made clear that if you don't join the union you will be sacked," he said. Union representatives "don't actually do any work for Holden", but rather make themselves full-time  enforcers of union control.


He says workers are drug tested before hiring, but "only have to stay off it for a few weeks, get in the door and then you'll be right". Workers caught taking drugs or being drug-affected at work are allegedly put on a fully paid rehabilitation program, with special paid time off of about four weeks duration, before being let back into the workforce.


Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy, but at Holden "the union won't let the company sack" any workers caught dealing, taking or being on drugs. "If they did a random drug test tomorrow they'd probably have to sack 40 per cent of the workforce," he adds.


If the Holden scenario were playing out in a privately owned business, proper cost-cutting strategies would be used. If you have the will and can hire the skill, there are many ways to cut labour costs. The workers can be given a couple of years notice of significant wage drops and can receive lump sum payouts of entitlements to help bring down family debt.


Of course, these strategies are only ever used by business people who have no one else to bail them out. It seems Holden would rather leave the country than dissolve its enterprise agreement. The union thinks members are better off jobless than on award wages. Holden's fate seems sealed.


If Holden does leave, workers will receive the most generous redundancy benefits around. Holden says leaving will cost $600m. Most of this will go to staff payouts. The fellow interviewed agrees with my calculation: the average production-line worker will walk away with a redundancy package of between $300k-500k.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 December 2013)

noco said:


> The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range.



That seems a bit low to me. Various manual labourers in other industries are paid in the order of $50K so $37 - 42K isn't going to attract good workers. But, of course, they do have to actually work hard in return for the $50K in other industries.



> Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy



Typically it's more like no work on the day after a positive test (taken home with someone else driving or in a taxi) and then managed the same way as any other serious employee performance issue. Typically that ends up as "three strikes and you're out". 

I'm only commenting from experience in other industries there, not sure how typical it is but it's what I've seen elsewhere (noting that I have never personally failed a drug / alcohol test but the above has been the practice in other places I'm aware of - go home on the day, do it 3 times and you're gone for good).

Agreed with the overall point though. Seems like an incredibly outdated arrangement they have that costs a fortune.


----------



## piggybank (13 January 2014)

The Holden V8 may have been given the chop, but it can still handle the toughest wood:-

http://video.carsguide.com.au/2429180352/Holden-V8-chainsaw-is-an-Aussie-muscle-axe?area=videoindex4


----------



## drsmith (14 January 2014)

> IT is impossible to build cars in Australia competitively and no amount of government incentives could have saved Holden, the head of General Motors international operations said.




On that, the ball is now in Toyota's court.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ho-closed-holden/story-e6frg6n6-1226801460552


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2014)

So Doc, can we now bash bull$hit Bill for all the crap he was saying, about how under Labor Holden would stay open.
Yes it would have been another blow your feet off moment for Labor, if they were still in office.
It's a shame the press don't hold Shorten up to the same scrutiny, they do on Abbott.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-14/no-amount-of-money-enough-to-save-holden/5199642


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> Overall (not specifically Holden) we're basically pursuing a national strategy of maximising short term gains and not worrying about the future.
> 
> It's a similar concept to an individual pursuing their life and career. At the age of 18, the maximum return in the short term can be gained by working in whatever job you can get, living at home and spending your income partying and traveling. More money than you'd ever get working part time whilst studying, no real expenses, and life's one big party.
> 
> ...




+1 Smurph
I think Australia has hit the crossroad, so to speak.
Back in the post war years 1945 - 1960 when our population was around the 9 - 12 million mark, we were in a less competitive world.
Our small population, was supported by our agricultural exports and we didn't import much. 
We actually manufactured our own cars, electronic equipment, manchester and blankets from our wool mills, paper products, canned food, biscuits, just about everything.
Now since the mid 1960's our economy has been propped up by the resources and all our secondry industries have died off. 
It has been a slow death by a thousand cuts, it has gone unnoticed and as you say we are are riding the mining wave.
However as with all waves it will break, then what?
It is actually a bit scary, how do we support our standard of living?
Where does our long term balance of trade come from, when we have less to export and import everything?
It's a big call and it is going to require the Government to have a long term plan, while we are in this 'purple patch' in our history.


----------



## noco (16 January 2014)

sptrawler said:


> +1 Smurph
> I think Australia has hit the crossroad, so to speak.
> Back in the post war years 1945 - 1960 when our population was around the 9 - 12 million mark, we were in a less competitive world.
> Our small population, was supported by our agricultural exports and we didn't import much.
> ...




And as I have said on many occassion on ASF, you can thank the communist dominated unions back in the 50's and 60's for the problems we face today....The Coms philosophy in those days was to ruin the economy of a country and the unions did a great job as to what we are seeing today....they have made us uncompetitive.....the Rudd/Gillard Government also seemed to have been engulfed in the same philosophy and that would have been to take control of the media, banks, mining and what was left of manufacturing.


----------



## Macquack (16 January 2014)

noco said:


> *you can thank the communist dominated unions back in the 50's and 60's for the problems we face today....*The Coms philosophy in those days was to ruin the economy of a country and the unions did a great job as to what we are seeing today....they have made us uncompetitive.....




What a load of bollocks.

With out the efforts of the union movement in the development of Australia, *we would be a third world nation*.


----------



## noco (17 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> What a load of bollocks.
> 
> With out the efforts of the union movement in the development of Australia, *we would be a third world nation*.




Perhaps when you read the rules of revolution you may well associate them with what has happened in the past 6 years of the Labor left wing socialist government under Rudd/Gillard.  Gillard as we all know was a member of the Fabian Society which is an arm of the Communist movement and I repeat the 50's and 60's were the worst years when most of the damage was done for which we are now suffering in most industries and the motor industry is a classical example thanks to the militant unions

Now read on.

RULES FOR REVOLUTION

The Bulletin several years ago published what was purported to be communist rules for revolution, A Home Hill reader, Dr. D. Mann, has supplied a cutting and asked that it be printed again-as well as some of the thoughts of Abraham Lincoln--because of their relevance to todays world. The articles are reprinted in the Townsville Bulletin on the 9th October 1984

Rules for revolution
IN May, 1919, at Dusseldorf, Germany,
the Allied forces obtalned e copy of some
ol the rules for communlst revolutlon.
Thev were. quoted dlrectly from the document:
*Corrupt the young; get them lnterested ln sex. Make
them superficial; destroy thelr ruggedness.
*Get control of all means of publlclty - thereby get
people's minds off thelr government by focuslng thelr
attention on athletles, sex books and plays and other
trivalities. 
* Divide the people lnto hostlle groups by constantly
harplng on controverslal matters of no lmportance. 
*Destroy the people's falth ln thelr natural leaders by
holdlng them up to contempt and rldlcule . 
* Always  preach true democracy, but selze power as
fast and as ruthlessly as possible.
* By encouraging government extravagance, destroy its credit, produce fear of inflation with rising prices and general discontent.
 *Promote unnecessary strikes in vital industries, emcourage civil disorders and foster a lenient and soft attitude on the part of the government towards such disorders.
*By deceptive argument cause breakdown of the moral virtues, honesty, soberity, chastity, faith in the pledge word.           
*Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with a view to confiscating them and leaving the popular helpless.

Lincoln's cannots
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrlft.
You cannot strengthen the week by weakening the strong,
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. 
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
you cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further brotherhood of men by lnciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative.
You cannot really help men by having the government tax them to do them what they can and should do for themselves.


----------



## Calliope (18 January 2014)

noco said:


> The Coms philosophy in those days was to ruin the economy of a country and the unions did a great job as to what we are seeing today....they have made us uncompetitive..




You are right Noco. Qantas has a similar problem to the car manufacturers. Shocking enterprise bargaining agreements have made them noncompetitive.



> In the old days before Virgin, Qantas, TAA and Ansett used to all agree to pay people the same. High wages were enjoyed by staff, but Australians paid a fortune to fly anywhere.
> 
> When Virgin arrived, it refused to price collude on labour costs with the other airlines. Instead, Virgin employed people on market rates at about half the cost, with no productivity restrictions. Flying became cheap. Australian people were much better off, yet Qantas could not compete because it was trapped in shocking enterprise bargaining agreements.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...heid-clips-wings/story-fnkdypbm-1226804170465


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## Macquack (18 January 2014)

Calliope said:


> You are right Noco. Qantas has a similar problem to the car manufacturers. Shocking enterprise bargaining agreements have made them noncompetitive.




Calliope, to reiterate your opening sentence on this thead :-


> *
> Holden is making cars we are not buying.*




Unions do not decide what type of car is manufactured, so you can lay the blame squarely on management for not responding to market demands.

It is NOT ALL THE BLOODY UNIONS FAULT.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> Calliope, to reiterate your opening sentence on this thead :-
> 
> 
> Unions do not decide what type of car is manufactured, so you can lay the blame squarely on management for not responding to market demands.
> ...




Well lets say 90% is THE BLOODY UNIONS FAULT.


----------



## sails (18 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> Calliope, to reiterate your opening sentence on this thead :-
> 
> 
> Unions do not decide what type of car is manufactured, so you can lay the blame squarely on management for not responding to market demands.
> ...





Hmmm...  Perhaps management realised there is no point in responding to market demands when they can't produce those vehicles at a competitive price.  High wages demanded by unions would be heavily contributing to the manufacturer's inability to compete.

Is that simple concept so difficult to understand?


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

*
HERE IS ANOTHER 21 WAYS OF HOW TO DESTROY A COUNTRY and it all started in the 50's.

    1. Redicule all discussion of lotalty, patriotism, individual responsiblilty, duty and sacrifice in order to estabish outright materialism.
    2. Inculate general disrespect for any kind of authority by urging people to obey thier own impulses. all in the name of freedom.
    3. Create a general distrust of law-inforcement officers, whether local police or government agencies.
    4. Hamper the enforcement of the criminal code with decisions that weaken the judicial system. Make it difficult to arrest, convict and sentence criminals for offences against society.
    5. Encourage subversives who advocate the violent overthrow of elected governments to sponsor disorderly protests, incite riots and damage public property.
    6. Convince minority elements that justice can never be secured by them through the processes of law, only through violence.
    7. Divide the country's ethnic groups against each other and incite "power" movements with the intent of eventual tax large-scale civil war.
    8. Favour ethnic groups with special welfare programs. Their privileged position in society is bound to attract hatred from others, less-priileged groups.
    9.Encourage the mass media to discard its ethics and report only sensational negative newss. Nothing willdestrouy a nations pride faster than that.
    10. Loosen all restraints on the entertainment media, allowing open sexual licence, make normal marriage appear dull and all forms of adultery and perversion to appear interesting, modern and exciting.
    11. Corrupt the youth of the land with pornography and portray all obscenity, immorality and perversion as just harmless,alternative lifestyles.
    12. Close one eye to drug trafficking and drug manufacture so that they become freely available to youth, then soft pedal all efforts to bring those responsible to justice by using civil liberty laws on their behalf.
    13. Destroy the basic unit of our society, the family, by loosening divorce laws until children of any family become insecure to the point of mental illness.
    14. Provide abortion on demand.The killing of unborn children will in time cheapen the concept of scared life, a pre-requisite for any successful revolution.
    15. Lull the people into believing that communism is not a threat, that communists are really nice people under neath and anyway, it could never happen here.
    16. Permit the power of militant, communist-controllrd unions to grow unchecked so they can exploit man's greed and thereby eventually destroy the economy.
    17. Build an education system which ignores the traditional "three R's". This will discourage children from independant reading and make them receptive to anything a socialist-controlled television system will feed them.
    18. You may not be able to stop an adult's belief in God, but by outlawing prayer and bible reading in schools you will estrange children from their inherent spirituality and make them an open target for any foreign ideology.
    19. In educatin, deny all absolutes like right and wrong, but introduce many shades of grey. This will confuse kids and make them more pliable, an asset when later teaching them incomprehensible theories like dialectic materialism.
20. Introduce "peace" movements. Use people's fear of nuclear weapons to alienate them from their allies and even their own elected governments. Peace movements should always be directed to weaken the subject nation, never the aggressor.
21. Disarm the populace. This is imperative to make them more vulnerable to any external pressure, usally during the latter stages of ant revolution. Use the pretext of criminal misuse of firearms if you have to.

TD 
Mackay Queensland
09/10/1984
letter published in the Townsville Bulletin.*


----------



## Macquack (18 January 2014)

sails said:


> Hmmm...  Perhaps management realised there is no point in responding to market demands when they can't produce those vehicles at a competitive price.  High wages demanded by unions would be heavily contributing to the manufacturer's inability to compete.
> 
> Is that simple concept so difficult to understand?




Australia's automotive manufacturing industry *has never and will never be competitive against Asian countries *on a pure 'labour' basis.

The car industry in Australia has been protected from 'day one' of it's existence.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> Australia's automotive manufacturing industry *has never and will never be competitive against Asian countries *on a pure 'labour' basis.
> 
> The car industry in Australia has been protected from 'day one' of it's existence.




And we can thank the militant unions for its demise....Don't you lovem.


----------



## Macquack (18 January 2014)

noco said:


> HERE IS ANOTHER 21 WAYS OF HOW TO DESTROY A COUNTRY ......
> 
> 21. Disarm the populace. This is imperative to make them more vulnerable to any external pressure, usually during the latter stages of any revolution. Use the pretext of criminal misuse of firearms if you have to.




That would make John Howard a "commie bastard".

Noco, what do you pack under your pillow for self defence? AK47?


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> That would make John Howard a "commie bastard".
> 
> Noco, what do you pack under your pillow for self defence? AK47?




MY OH MY Macquack you are getting cranky.

I must have hit a nerve in exposing your beloved militant unions as to the way they have ruined Australia....dem weel gud pellars to the werkin peepels.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

noco said:


> MY OH MY Macquack you are getting cranky.
> 
> I must have hit a nerve in exposing your beloved militant unions as to the way they have ruined Australia....dem weel gud pellars to the werkin peepels.




Macquack, item 21 is irrelavent to Howard's 'BUY BACK OF FIREARMS' which was brought about by the massacre of 38 people in Fort Dennison Tasmania........you are desperate in trying to brand Howard as a commie bastard..... it refers to the reduction of arms in other countries influenced by the wolrd wide movement of communism and in the past 6 years is a typical example of how our left wing socialist pair in Rudd/Gillard  had reduced the spending of military arms to 1.6% of GDP....the lowest level since 1938....absolutely nothing to do with personal fire arms in Australia. 

So please get real and interpret Item 21 in the manner it was meant to be.


----------



## Macquack (18 January 2014)

The massacre was in Port Arthur in Tasmania. Fort Denison is in Sydney Harbour.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

Macquack said:


> The massacre was in Port Arthur in Tasmania. Fort Denison is in Sydney Harbour.




My apology Macquack....yes you are correct...it was Port Arthur and I should have known better having been there in 2002


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

This link maybe a little off topic but it is still related to the down fall of the car industry.

The link points out how the Labor Party, Gillard and the unions were and still are associated with the Communist Party of Australia (CPA). We should all now start to realize how Gillrad worked to ruin the economy of this great country of ours. The wasted money used to overcome the "GFC" , the Carbon tax, the mining tax and the freedom given by her to the unions.

Even blind 'Freddie' could and should understand what Gillard was up to.

http://churlsgonewild.wordpress.com/tag/bernie-taft/


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 February 2014)

Car industry on Ya bike,


Toyota to pull out.

See is all done now.


----------



## sptrawler (10 February 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> Car industry on Ya bike,
> 
> 
> Toyota to pull out.
> ...




Well that's it then. Where to from here?


----------



## Knobby22 (10 February 2014)

The Libs wanted them out sooner rather than later. Trying to get all the bad news out now before the May budget.

They encouraged them to go by not only saying that there will be no support but also that there would be no requirement for the Government  to buy Australian vehicles. 

Since they have succeeded, the champagne will be out tonight at party headquarters.


----------



## sptrawler (10 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> The Libs wanted them out sooner rather than later. Trying to get all the bad news out now before the May budget.
> 
> They encouraged them to go by not only saying that there will be no support but also that there would be no requirement for the Government  to buy Australian vehicles.
> 
> Since they have succeeded, the champagne will be out tonight at party headquarters.




I seriously doubt that.
Now that the 'line in the sand is drawn', it will be up to the coalition to artculate a plan for for the resurection of sustainable manufacturing industry .
If they can't come up with a frame work and sell it to the Australian population, the hard stance they have taken, will be a noose around their necks come election time.
It is something that needed to be done, however it is a very courageous call that could end in political suicide.


----------



## trainspotter (10 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> The Libs wanted them out sooner rather than later. Trying to get all the bad news out now before the May budget.
> 
> They encouraged them to go by not only saying that there will be no support but also that there would be no requirement for the Government  to buy Australian vehicles.
> 
> Since they have succeeded, the champagne will be out tonight at party headquarters.




OH FFS !! Yep it is all the Libs fault now isn't it !! I am sure Toyota made this decision based upon Tony Abbott and the blue bloods coming into power on the 7th September. Yep these big multi nationals make decisions to quit manufacturing on a political parties ability to run the country for a period of 3 months.


----------



## noco (10 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> The Libs wanted them out sooner rather than later. Trying to get all the bad news out now before the May budget.
> 
> They encouraged them to go by not only saying that there will be no support but also that there would be no requirement for the Government  to buy Australian vehicles.
> 
> Since they have succeeded, the champagne will be out tonight at party headquarters.




Now let me see...what breed of car do you drive....can I have an honest answer?

I always believed the Coms, the Labor Party and the Greens preech freedom of speech...freedom of what you buy and where from at the cheapest possible price.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 February 2014)

trainspotter said:


> OH FFS !! Yep it is all the Libs fault now isn't it !! I am sure Toyota made this decision based upon Tony Abbott and the blue bloods coming into power on the 7th September. Yep these big multi nationals make decisions to quit manufacturing on a political parties ability to run the country for a period of 3 months.




It wasn't the Libs fault and I never said it was, but they wanted to speed it up.
They did announce that Toyota wasn't going to get a cent and would receive no protection making us the only country in the world with this policy. They also announced that it was now going to be government policy to let public servants buy foreign cars.
As Toyota said, we are the freest and most competitive market in the world for cars.  So now we will remain this way without our own car industry. Once Ford went, it was inevitable.

At least sptrawler read what I wrote.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 February 2014)

noco said:


> Now let me see...what breed of car do you drive....can I have an honest answer?
> 
> I always believed the Coms, the Labor Party and the Greens preech freedom of speech...freedom of what you buy and where from at the cheapest possible price.




I drive a Falcon and I voted Liberal.
It is the Libs who preach freedom of speech and cheapest possible price, or at least they used to. Communists  don't, Greens think you should tax large motors, I think you have mixed up your political parties.


----------



## sptrawler (10 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> It wasn't the Libs fault and I never said it was, but they wanted to speed it up.
> They did announce that Toyota wasn't going to get a cent and would receive no protection making us the only country in the world with this policy. They also announced that it was now going to be government policy to let public servants buy foreign cars.
> As Toyota said, we are the freest and most competitive market in the world for cars.  So now we will remain this way without our own car industry. Once Ford went, it was inevitable.




One has to wonder, if this isn't being done to drive inovation and force modernisation. If it succeedes, it may well result in a major drop in the company tax rates.
This would be supported, by getting rid of the current drag on the tax base, supporting outdated and uncompetetive industries. 
Just a thought.


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

So we have to believe the decision by all the car manufacturers has only been made since the change of Government.

Ford made the decision while Labor was in power even though Gillard had poured $billions into Ford which she said would last until 2020.

I would say Holden and Toyota would have made a decsion at the same time....No matter how much money was poured into the industry.....it was all doomed to fail.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

noco said:


> So we have to believe the decision by all the car manufacturers has only been made since the change of Government.
> 
> Ford made the decision while Labor was in power even though Gillard had poured $billions into Ford which she said would last until 2020.
> 
> I would say Holden and Toyota would have made a decsion at the same time....No matter how much money was poured into the industry.....it was all doomed to fail.




They, like a lot of other companies, milk it for what it's worth.

I think it is a great point in our history to make this stand, maybe Abbott is the 'mad monk'.
He really does seem to be on a make or break mission for Australia. 
It's about time someone put Australia, before their political career.


----------



## So_Cynical (11 February 2014)

noco said:


> So we have to believe the decision by all the car manufacturers has only been made since the change of Government.




Now lets see...change of government and industry support policy followed closely by all 3 manufacturers deciding to pull the pin.

Coincidence or cause and affect?


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Now lets see...change of government and industry support policy followed closely by all 3 manufacturers deciding to pull the pin.
> 
> Coincidence or cause and affect?




Well I suppose you can support showbag Bill's line.lol

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...facturing-shutdown-was-not-inevitable/5250834

The key statement from Bills mouth, is as follows.

*Mr Shorten would not confirm whether Labor would have kept subsidies flowing to car makers but said there would have been a "transition" that would see the industry survive, at least in the short-term.* lol what a dick.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 February 2014)

Good quote from Mr Griffin of Diver which employs 115 people and is one of the 150 parts supplier companies that will close.

"If the government hadn't signed up to ridiculous free trade agreements with other countries where the conditions of those agreements aren't reciprocal, we wouldn't be in this position either"


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Now lets see...change of government and industry support policy followed closely by all 3 manufacturers deciding to pull the pin.
> 
> Coincidence or cause and affect?




Now lets see something else.......

Ford decided to close it's doors prior to September 7 2013 even though Gillard pumped in $millions to keep them afloat to 2022.......After Gillrad's injection of funds to Ford, the unions negotiated a better pay deal subsidided by the poor old working family tax payers.

*So are you going to blame Abbott for the Ford closure?*


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Unions blame Abbott, maybe they should have a long hard look at themselves.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/workplace_culture_partly_to_blame_qYAyZxknMgEIGkNcDsnioN


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Unions blame Abbott, maybe they should have a long hard look at themselves.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/workplace_culture_partly_to_blame_qYAyZxknMgEIGkNcDsnioN





You have hit the nail on the head buddy......I have been harping on this fact since the 50's and 60's and that is when this union rot began and the workers are now paying dearly for their greediness....this was a communist plot to ruin the ecomomy of Australia and Rudd and Gillard and now Shorten have embraced it all as well.

One of the problems now for the Labor Party is the loss of donations from the union fees collected.....without union donations the Labor Party will be stuffed.


----------



## CanOz (11 February 2014)

It looks like non-unionized Australia might be finally getting sick and tired of Unionized Australia leading them around on a lead...



> Max Yasuda, Toyota Australia president, had signalled that the giant auto maker was losing patience with Aussie workplace culture in an exclusive interview with this newspaper two years ago.“If you don’t work on Friday, it is a long weekend right? In this country, and in our plant, they just don’t come in and later on they ask for sick leave,” he said




lol...you tell an American from the midwest, or an Asian about that and he'd say "but they don't get paid right??"

It really sickens me how the Unions have destroyed Australia but yet you talk to a hardline unionist and its the governments fault...


----------



## Chris45 (11 February 2014)

Labor's answer to our manufacturing woes ... borrow money to prop up inefficient industries and support the workers' perks and keep the unions happy.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 February 2014)

Good article by *Terry McCrann, right wing business commentator of the Herald Sun*
He makes the point that we will now be the only country in the G20 without a car industry except for Saudi Arabia.
I particularly like his conclusion:

"We should not have cut tariffs to just 5%; they should have stopped at say 20%. And we have always been ludicrously and embarrassingly naÃ¯ve in negotiating so-called "free trade agreements".

Seriously it is a sad day. We will never again have a car industry. I hope it is the right way to go.
It still amazes me that the treaty with Thailand allowed them to have a tariff on our cars and parts makers but not vice versa. As for the US agreement, hmmph


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Good article by *Terry McCrann, right wing business commentator of the Herald Sun*
> He makes the point that we will now be the only country in the G20 without a car industry except for Saudi Arabia.
> I particularly like his conclusion:
> 
> ...




In principle I agree, however the U.K still manufactures cars. It really isn't as simple as saying just charge more for imported gear.
That in turn pushes our wages up further, therefore we can't sell any of our exports.
We really do have an issue of high wages, but they are required to support our systems and way of life.
It is an immensly difficult situation to unwind.
Just think what your wage has to support, directly or indirectly, it's scary.


----------



## Caveman (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> We really do have an issue of high wages



So you are going to take a wage cut are you?For the good of the country.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Caveman said:


> So you are going to take a wage cut are you?For the good of the country.




Like I said it is a hard situation to unwind.
Our wages have to support our welfare system, multi layers of government and their support staff and their resultant superannuation entitlements. Then it has to supply your own superannuation, your house payment and or rent, rates, food, education,car,fuel etc. It goes on and on.
However having said that it is difficult when you are competing with other first world countries that pay a lot less.
The U.K wages are a lot less, they still have a car industry even though Indians own some of it, they didn't move offshore.
The U.S car industry has restructured, the U.S has also tanked their dollar so they are o.k. We aren't able to do that.
Some talk about Germany, I think their pension scheme is, you only recieve a full pension after working for 45 years. We have people arriving and getting pensions as soon as they get citizenship.

Also we have to pay enough tax, to supply remote infrastructure in a very large country.

Like I said it is hard to unwind, but somethings got to give.
You just can't keep giving more money to support a system that is failing badly.
As for would I take a pay cut for the common good, I don't think I'll be given a choice.:1zhelp:


----------



## Caveman (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said it is a hard situation to unwind.



Yea like real estate agents arent going to take a commision cut when we want to buy somewhere to live.
Well it looks like we dont have a high wage problem any more with the car industry on the way out.
But im with Knobby I think its more to do with having a free trade agreement while other countrys have tariffs.
Also people arent buying the Falcons or Commodores as a muscle car,they are getting Hiluxs or navaras.


----------



## Caveman (11 February 2014)

CanOz said:


> lol...you tell an American from the midwest, or an Asian about that and he'd say "but they don't get paid right??"
> 
> It really sickens me how the Unions have destroyed Australia but yet you talk to a hardline unionist and its the governments fault...



Australia is a destroyed country?With unemployment at 5.8% Interest 2.5%cash rate AAA credit rating.
Last time I looked America was more of a basket case than Australia.


----------



## So_Cynical (11 February 2014)

noco said:


> the unions negotiated a better pay deal subsidided by the poor old working family tax payers.






sptrawler said:


> Unions blame Abbott, maybe they should have a long hard look at themselves.







CanOz said:


> It really sickens me how the Unions have destroyed Australia but yet you talk to a hardline unionist and its the governments fault...







Chris45 said:


> Labor's answer to our manufacturing woes ... borrow money to prop up inefficient industries and support the workers' perks and keep the unions happy.




Ok so let me get my head around this...its ok to have an auto manufacturing industry (insert any other industry here) as long as the workers don't have any perks, don't get well paid, it doesn't cost Govt anything, and even better if there is no union presence.

Is that about it?

----------------

The minister was on 7.30 tonight saying that



			
				Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane said:
			
		

> Not a catastrophe, new and innovative industry's will emerge and workers will transition to those new jobs




And these* new* industry's and jobs will emerge "apparently" without any Govt assistance...yer right.


http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3942680.htm


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Caveman said:


> Yea like real estate agents arent going to take a commision cut when we want to buy somewhere to live.
> Well it looks like we dont have a high wage problem any more with the car industry on the way out.
> But im with Knobby I think its more to do with having a free trade agreement while other countrys have tariffs.
> Also people arent buying the Falcons or Commodores as a muscle car,they are getting Hiluxs or navaras.




With your first statement, real estate agents will be the first to be hit, if there is a property crash. 
They tend to believe their own spin, and a lot will be exposed to real estate.IMO

You tend to contadict yourself when you say it is due to free trade agreements, then say people aren't buying Falcons and Commodores.
Also we don't export them, so really we are producing them but nobody is buying them.

The only manufacturer that had a chance was Toyota, they exported 70% of their production. 
However as someone has already posted, management was having trouble liasing with workers, through the unions.
So why wouldn't they just ramp up their production, through other right hand drive factories.
We can bull**** ourselves as much as we like, but do you or I pay a premium for a product to make sure an Australian keeps a job.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Ok so let me get my head around this...its ok to have an auto manufacturing industry (insert any other industry here) as long as the workers don't have any perks, don't get well paid, it doesn't cost Govt anything, and even better if there is no union presence.
> 
> Is that about it?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3942680.htm




No, not at all, but what are you saying. 
You keep paying an overseas company, to keep a factory open, untill it doesn't sell anything?

They say, to be viable they have to sell 300,000 units per year. 
How many Australian manufactured units did Ford or Holden sell.

Also, as for supporting Australia and spending money in Australia to support our infrastructure.

Isn't it you, who tell us, you spend heaps of time in the Phillipines.lol

So much for buy Australian, bet you haven't given up your Aussie citizenship.

You never know, when you are going to need medicare, or the Australian pension,hey. lol commrade


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Good article by *Terry McCrann, right wing business commentator of the Herald Sun*
> He makes the point that we will now be the only country in the G20 without a car industry except for Saudi Arabia.
> I particularly like his conclusion:
> 
> ...




The tarrif reductions were brought about by the 'Button plan' under Labor.
Prior to that, there was a 57% import duty on cars and Ford, GM were dishing up $hit, because they could.


----------



## Caveman (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> With your first statement, real estate agents will be the first to be hit, if there is a property crash.
> They tend to believe their own spin, and a lot will be exposed to real estate.IMO
> 
> You tend to contadict yourself when you say it is due to free trade agreements, then say people aren't buying Falcons and Commodores.
> Also we don't export them, so really we are producing them but nobody is buying them.



Not a contradiction at all.I was saying that originally the subsidy was probably due to the free trade agreement imbalance and lately 6cyl car sales having dropped off must have an impact.Well its all academic now.


----------



## So_Cynical (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> No, not at all, but what are you saying.
> You keep paying an overseas company, to keep a factory open, untill it doesn't sell anything?




That's it, jump from one extreme to the other.



sptrawler said:


> They say, to be viable they have to sell 300,000 units per year.
> How many Australian manufactured units did Ford or Holden sell.
> 
> Also, as for supporting Australia and spending money in Australia to support our infrastructure.




During the GFC the US Govt provided over 35 BILLION in support to their auto industry....just saying that in many country's some industry's needs a little help, farming a global good example with ALL the developed country's providing financial support to these vital local industry's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10


sptrawler said:


> Isn't it you, who tell us, you spend heaps of time in the Phillipines.lol
> 
> So much for buy Australian, bet you haven't given up your Aussie citizenship.
> 
> You never know, when you are going to need medicare, or the Australian pension,hey. lol commrade




I do spend a bit of time in the Philippines and plan to spend a lot more time there in the years to come...the Philippines Govt hasn't signed many (if any) free trade agreements and the Govt actively supports local industry's, and subsidies many Govt services that operate at a loss...not much private sector help other than tax free manufacturing zones and tax breaks in general.

As for Medicare and the Pension, Medicare cost me money every year as i don't get anywhere near the amount of medical care that the scheme costs me and i wont see a pension until 2030..and if im lucky enough to ever see an Aussie pension it will be take till 2050 for me to get even close to break even.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2014)

Caveman said:


> Not a contradiction at all.I was saying that originally the subsidy was probably due to the free trade agreement imbalance and lately 6cyl car sales having dropped off must have an impact.Well its all academic now.




Not entirely, now that the Government has said you aren't going to get subsidies, unless you can show good cause.
This is going to force businesses to assess their model and decide if is viable or requires changing.
The problem with the existing model was, run it into the ground don't inovate don't improve, just put your hand out when it doesn't sell.
The perfect example of this was the U.K car industry.
The Mini, what a classic, what a brilliant piece of inovation.
Then what happened, BMC sat on their ar$e and milked it to death, they didn't move on and develop it to the next level.

Then what happened, the Honda Civic.lol 
Wasn't I pizzed off when my souped up 1275 cooper S was flogged by a bog standard, bread and butter civic.

Well guess what it's now happening here, the only difference being, the U.K car industry was U.K owned.
Our car Industry is owned by the U.S and Japan, yet we are saying you should build here, why?
Because we will pay you to do it, if you pay us more money.


----------



## DB008 (11 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Unions blame Abbott, maybe they should have a long hard look at themselves.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/workplace_culture_partly_to_blame_qYAyZxknMgEIGkNcDsnioN




*TOYOTA 
TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED 
WORKPLACE 
AGREEMENT 
ALTONA 
2011​*
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/12/11/1226780/877085-aus-news-file-toyota-eba-altona-2011.pdf


----------



## So_Cynical (11 February 2014)

DB008 said:


> *TOYOTA
> TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED
> WORKPLACE
> AGREEMENT
> ...




13% over 3 years, 1 RDO per month, and 10 to 30% shift allowance...so what's the problem? pretty much the same benefits i used to have as a state (NSW) Govt Employee.

--- 

Out of interest - can we have a show of hands for people that have spent more than 5 minutes at an Australian Auto assembly facility...as coincidence would have it i applied for a production line job (spot welder from memory) at Nissan about 13 months before they pulled the plug (early/mid 90's) and found the production line experience to be hellish.

As they were walking us through for a look see (about 20 of us) everyone started tapping tools etc on metal fittings or machinery making a lot of of noise over the already loud noise of the production line, much like you see in the prison movies when new inmates first arrive....it was most off putting, the place was hellish and you would have to be near brain dead to put up with it or paid well.

I didn't take the job.


----------



## prawn_86 (12 February 2014)

I have had to delete some posts in this thread.

Please be mindful of ASF rules and treat other members with respect


----------



## CanOz (12 February 2014)

Caveman said:


> Australia is a destroyed country?With unemployment at 5.8% Interest 2.5%cash rate AAA credit rating.
> Last time I looked America was more of a basket case than Australia.




Agree those are great numbers, but what they don't reflect are the jobs that will be lost in the auto industry, including the flow on into the supporting industries. Manufacturing in Australia has been in sharp decline with a stronger dollar and higher costs, most of which is labor. For those of us that make our living in manufacturing it is disturbing to think that much of the cost is due to poor productivity and higher than 'normal' wages. 

Compare unskilled labor between here and Canada in the food business and you'll soon see what i mean.


----------



## CanOz (12 February 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Out of interest - can we have a show of hands for people that have spent more than 5 minutes at an Australian Auto assembly facility...as coincidence would have it i applied for a production line job (spot welder from memory) at Nissan about 13 months before they pulled the plug (early/mid 90's) and found the production line experience to be hellish.
> 
> As they were walking us through for a look see (about 20 of us) everyone started tapping tools etc on metal fittings or machinery making a lot of of noise over the already loud noise of the production line, much like you see in the prison movies when new inmates first arrive....it was most off putting, the place was hellish and you would have to be near brain dead to put up with it or paid well.
> 
> I didn't take the job.




No, i haven't spent more than 5 minutes in any auto production facility. Been through plenty of factories though, mostly food related.

That attitude by the workers goes a long way in explaining the problem we have in Australia SC, thanks for that


----------



## CanOz (12 February 2014)

Are these sectors going to continue to supply growth to Australia's workforce?

You can see that manufacturing is taking away from employment....once the unions get thier teeth into services is guess it will be all over for that as well

BTW, this is full of some great stats...


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 February 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Out of interest - can we have a show of hands for people that have spent more than 5 minutes at an Australian Auto assembly facility...




I did. I worked arvo shift in a rubber factory that made parts for all the car makers back in the early 90s. Was my first fulltime job, think I was 17-18. Was saving up to go and race for a year in Italy..... Arvo shift was perfect - train during the day work a bit at night.

Was the most hideous place on earth, full of inbred halfwits that barely resembled Neanderthals let alone Humans. Quality control was shocking and the productivity and waste was something that makes me shudder still! I used to reduce the curing times by half on my machine that made engine mounts for Ford Falcons and get a days work done in half the time then go and sit on the can for the rest of the day and read the paper. :flush:


----------



## McLovin (12 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Good article by *Terry McCrann, right wing business commentator of the Herald Sun*
> He makes the point that we will now be the only country in the G20 without a car industry except for Saudi Arabia.




I think that needs to be put into perspective though. The majority of G20 countries either have a large domestic market (India, China, USA), or have specialised in car manufacturing (Japan, Korea, Germany). Australian car manufacturing can't hope to compete. In place like Europe, there's the ability to plug a new factory into a massive supply chain, which doesn't exist here (eg you can build the new Peugeot in Bordeaux or Bilbao it won't make much difference). I do think there's a place for industry assistance but not to a primarily domestically focused industry, like vehicle manufacturing.



> I did. I worked arvo shift in a rubber factory that made parts for all the car makers back in the early 90s. Was my first fulltime job, think I was 17-18. Was saving up to go and race for a year in Italy..... Arvo shift was perfect - train during the day work a bit at night.
> 
> Was the most hideous place on earth, full of inbred halfwits that barely resembled Neanderthals let alone Humans.




My parents owned a furniture company. During school holidays I used to work there helping with installations etc. Every now and then we used to go and pick stuff up from the chromers. I swear, aside from the factory looking like something out of Dickens, the guys who worked there had clearly been affected by the fumes over the years.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2014)

McLovin said:


> I think that needs to be put into perspective though. The majority of G20 countries either have a large domestic market (India, China, USA), or have specialised in car manufacturing (Japan, Korea, Germany). Australian car manufacturing can't hope to compete. In place like Europe, there's the ability to plug a new factory into a massive supply chain, which doesn't exist here (eg you can build the new Peugeot in Bordeaux or Bilbao it won't make much difference). I do think there's a place for industry assistance but not to a primarily domestically focused industry, like vehicle manufacturing.
> .




True. The supply chain in Europe is incredible.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 February 2014)

CanOz said:


> Are these sectors going to continue to supply growth to Australia's workforce?



I think the really alarming point is that one industry stands out beyond all others on that chart.

Public Administration & Safety, which I assume would be primarily the Public Service, is by far the largest contributor to growth. That in itself is a worry even without the problems in manufacturing. You can't spend your way, via the Public Service, to wealth.

For the record I'm not trying to bash the PS, it is necessary and does a lot of useful work, but it's an undeniable reality that spending taxpayer funds on administration etc is not in itself a means of creating wealth. And yet it's our fastest growing industry.....


----------



## sptrawler (13 February 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think the really alarming point is that one industry stands out beyond all others on that chart.
> 
> Public Administration & Safety, which I assume would be primarily the Public Service, is by far the largest contributor to growth. That in itself is a worry even without the problems in manufacturing. You can't spend your way, via the Public Service, to wealth.
> 
> For the record I'm not trying to bash the PS, it is necessary and does a lot of useful work, but it's an undeniable reality that spending taxpayer funds on administration etc is not in itself a means of creating wealth. And yet it's our fastest growing industry.....




It comes with the multiple levels of Government, we must be the most over governed country in the world.
But that's probably another thread.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 February 2014)

Bit of thread drift, but retail is third. can anyone really see much growth in this? We can't all be baristas. Against what the neo classical economists say, I predict that we are heading for a nasty recession, especially in Victoria. Give it 3 years.

Retail will go through the floor once we have a slowdown and everything will be bought over the net. The amount of clothing and coffee shops near my work is astounding.


----------



## CanOz (13 February 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think the really alarming point is that one industry stands out beyond all others on that chart.
> 
> Public Administration & Safety, which I assume would be primarily the Public Service, is by far the largest contributor to growth. That in itself is a worry even without the problems in manufacturing. You can't spend your way, via the Public Service, to wealth.
> 
> For the record I'm not trying to bash the PS, it is necessary and does a lot of useful work, but it's an undeniable reality that spending taxpayer funds on administration etc is not in itself a means of creating wealth. And yet it's our fastest growing industry.....




Thats what i thought too, assume its a hangover from the labor party? Canada would be worse IMO, just a guess though.

Construction is a worry too, you can't just keep building stuff....like China.

Really it needs to be more balanced


----------



## sptrawler (13 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Bit of thread drift, but retail is third. can anyone really see much growth in this? We can't all be baristas. Against what the neo classical economists say, I predict that we are heading for a nasty recession, especially in Victoria. Give it 3 years.
> 
> Retail will go through the floor once we have a slowdown and everything will be bought over the net. The amount of clothing and coffee shops near my work is astounding.




Even in the 'poorer' areas of Perth the coffee shops and take away food joints are packed. 
I tend to think these are the last indulgences people give up, after smokes and booze.lol

The first things given up are paying rent and electricity bills.

Maybe we could rename the thread, sell the Holden and get on yer bike.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Against what the neo classical economists say, I predict that we are heading for a nasty recession, especially in Victoria. Give it 3 years.




Thinking of the mainstream economic news in a state (Tas) that doesn't have a Holden, Ford or Toyota factory it's all doom and gloom in the media.

Ford is closing in Vic.

Holden is closing in SA.

Toyota is closing in Vic.

Alcoa might be closing in Vic. So too might Shell.

A company called Forge just went bankrupt and put a lot of people out of work in other states.

Qantas is struggling financially.

The Mt Lyell mine is shutdown for an "extended period" following 3 worker deaths at the site. It's uncertain that it will ever reopen.

The Australian government is "broke" and looking at drastic measures to fix the situation.

State government finances are worse than previously thought too. 

A local civil contracting company is going broke thus putting 100 or so workers out of a job.

The Australian Dollar is significantly lower than it was in the past few years.

The imminent surge in gas prices seems to be becoming general public knowledge to some extent. 

Based on all that, I'm expecting consumer confidence to slump at least in SA, Vic and probably also Tas since there's lots of doom and nothing good at all really. Given all the talk about "50,000 job losses" and so on, and the general acceptance that many of these will be people not directly employed by the car manufacturers, I'd be expecting a lot of people to be keeping their wallets shut from now on. And if they do stop spending well then there goes jobs in retail, trades, hospitality and so on and the whole thing snowballs. 

Thinking back to the last recession, the key thing stuck in my mind is mainstream media coverage of big job losses one after another around that time. That's pretty much the sort of thing we're starting to see now.

The market for trades workers, electricians and plumbers etc, has fallen in a heap around here that's for sure. Very few jobs out there, very few apprentices being taken on and the group training companies are pretty much overwhelmed by the sheer number of apprentices that have been handed back by their host employers and are now out of work.

I don't doubt that there is some positive news somewhere, but the media focus is very much on the negative and I'm thinking that this will influence consumer spending in due course.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 February 2014)

Yes, and the coming budget might set this up, especially if it is highly contractionary.


----------



## Duckman#72 (14 February 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't doubt that there is some positive news somewhere..........




There sure is Smurf - AFL season isn't far away.  

Jobe Watson, Buddy Franklin and Pendles will make us all forget what a basketcase the country is in.

Duckman


----------



## greggles (17 February 2020)

The Holden Era is officially over.

General Motors has announced today that the Holden brand will disappear at the end of this year and the company will no longer make cars suitable for Australian roads.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-17/holden-car-brand-axed-after-160-years-in-australia/11972092

A sad end to an Australian icon.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

greggles said:


> The Holden Era is officially over.
> 
> General Motors has announced today that the Holden brand will disappear at the end of this year and the company will no longer make cars suitable for Australian roads.
> 
> ...



I wonder if it will have a dramatic effect on resale value?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

That's what happens when you let foreigners into the country.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if it will have a dramatic effect on resale value?




Some of the rarer models like Monaros and Maloos will no doubt increase in value, I doubt if you could say the same about a '74 Kingswood.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Interesting article on the closure.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...7-p541lt.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true
From the article:
_General Motors has retreated from other right-hand-drive countries over the past three years, departing lucrative markets such as the United Kingdom, Japan, India and South Africa.


The three main remaining right-hand-drive countries were Thailand, Australia and New Zealand, but General Motors says it has become unprofitable to develop new vehicles for such comparatively small markets.

Globally, more than 75 per cent of all vehicles sold are left-hand-drive_.

So in reality, we could have kept throwing money at them, they would have still closed down.
They have also sold the Thailand manufacturing plant, so they are fully exiting RHD vehicles, I wonder with the advent of E.V's if LHD will become standard?
The saving grace for RHD, may be the fact E.V's will be easier to make in either RHD or LHD, as it is only the dashboard and steering components that will be different.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Another angle on the closure.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/the-m...-beaten-in-the-end-123254.html?trackLink=SMH3


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## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

Holden's loss may be Great Wall's gain.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/how-h...-wall-in-australia-123267.html?trackLink=SMH3
From the article:
_Having yesterday officially withdrawn from the Australian and Thai markets, GM announced Chinese brand Great Wall Motors has committed to buying the Thai plant currently supplying the Holden Colorado dual-cab ute and seven-seat Trailblazer SUV.
Thailand – dubbed the Detroit of south-east Asia – will be a manufacturing hub from which it can drive that growth.

It will also see Great Wall building cars in the same place Toyota, Isuzu, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Ford produce their dual-cab utes, allowing the Chinese brand to tap into Thailand's vast supply chain and manufacturing knowledge.

"Great Wall Motors will expand through the entire ASEAN region with Thailand as the centre, and export its products to other ASEAN countries as well as Australia," the company said yesterday in a statement_.


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## qldfrog (19 February 2020)

Cool a long wall colorado below 30k


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## sptrawler (19 February 2020)

Holden to slash prices, to get rid of stock, if you want a new Holden get in now.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/holde...els-are-half-price-123279.html?trackLink=SMH0

_The biggest discounts are on the Holden Colorado ute, ranging from $13,000 to $17,500, slashing the drive-away cost by up to one-third on some models.

Since this story was published early today, there has been confusion in the Holden dealer network about whether the discounts are off the current drive-away offer prices, or from the full RRP.

If the discount was applied to the Holden Trax city SUV’s current drive-away price, the savings of $10,000 to $11,000 would bring this $23,990 model to about $13,000 – cheaper than a Hyundai hatchback cost 20 years ago_.


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