# Are index futures better than index CFDs?



## AMR (18 November 2007)

Hi ASF crew,

I'm currently trading HongKong33 index CFDs using CMC Markets, but I am considering index futures as well. Are there any advantages in moving over to a futures broker instead of CMC? Right now, the main gripe I have is the slippage - I can often lose 20-30 points in a fast market. I only have 2k capital with CMC at the moment, but I could throw 10k into a futures broker account if needed.

Thanks for the help


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## professor_frink (18 November 2007)

AMR said:


> Hi ASF crew,
> 
> I'm currently trading HongKong33 index CFDs using CMC Markets, but I am considering index futures as well. Are there any advantages in moving over to a futures broker instead of CMC? Right now, the main gripe I have is the slippage - I can often lose 20-30 points in a fast market. I only have 2k capital with CMC at the moment, but I could throw 10k into a futures broker account if needed.
> 
> Thanks for the help




Hi AMR, welcome to ASF

10K would barely let you trade 1 contract intraday, depending on whether they offer a discounted rate for intraday trading or not. I think you need close to 20K AUD at the moment to hold the HSI overnight.

What you are experiencing with CMC right now is no different to what is happening in the futures market.


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## Trembling Hand (19 November 2007)

You can trade the Hang Seng Mini (MHI) for about $2200 AUD intraday margin and about double that for overnight with IB. I think this is that same value per tick for the minimum CMC contract. But really it is a pretty wild index you would need a fair bit bigger kitty to survive this baby than the minimum margin.


Oh and if anyone wants to know what it takes for a CFD provider to effectively make your account not useable buy slowing the execution down to carrier pigeon times PM me and I will send you a couple of statements. 
Have had to close mine. I use it as a backup in case of emergencies. About two months ago I traded it all day on the HSI to test my theory that the brokerage free trades suck. By the end of the day c::flush::goodnight::swear: she didn't work and has never executed properly since


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## CFD (19 November 2007)

I think a CFD provider, or any broker for that matter, should make their money from the transaction fees or commissions (and interest charges). They should not incur a profit or loss dependant on the outcome of your trade.


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## Trembling Hand (19 November 2007)

CFD said:


> I think a CFD provider, or any broker for that matter, should make their money from the transaction fees or commissions (and interest charges). They should not incur a profit or loss dependant on the outcome of your trade.




Yep that is the problem with MM CFDs. A Futures broker has a direct interest in your survival. The longer you are around the more brokerage they get. Where as that is not the case with MM CFDs.


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## caleb2003 (19 November 2007)

TH who do you use for Futures brokerage? and do you also just use their charting or do you get a seperate one?

Thanks


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## Trembling Hand (19 November 2007)

caleb2003 said:


> TH who do you use for Futures brokerage? and do you also just use their charting or do you get a seperate one?
> 
> Thanks





I use IB as my Futures broker with their data feed into Ninja Trader for charting. Very good setup, cheapest data by far. Ninja is free if you just want the charts.

I'm having one problem at the moment with the DOM on Ninja Trader for Hong Kong futures only which is strange as it works great with all other exchanges! It’s not showing all the data and each side is telling me it’s the others software. Will sort it out eventually.


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## caleb2003 (19 November 2007)

trembling Hand said:


> I use IB as my Futures broker with their data feed into Ninja Trader for charting. Very good setup, cheapest data by far. Ninja is free if you just want the charts.
> 
> I'm having one problem at the moment with the DOM on Ninja Trader for Hong Kong futures only which is strange as it works great with all other exchanges! It’s not showing all the data and each side is telling me it’s the others software. Will sort it out eventually.




Great thanks for the reply.


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## julius (19 November 2007)

Hi Trembling,

Can you recommend a provider for historical intra-day data on index futures?


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## Trembling Hand (19 November 2007)

julius said:


> Hi Trembling,
> 
> Can you recommend a provider for historical intra-day data on index futures?




Not one that is cheap enough that would make it worthwhile. And pretty hard to get SFE data but for  US,
http://disktrading.is99.com/disktrading/
http://www.anfutures.com/tickbytickdata.htm


One of the things I like about Ninja is that it stores the Tick data that you can export or replay. Maybe start a thread to see if any of the system traders have any answers to this. I have some but it’s pretty patchy.


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## professor_frink (19 November 2007)

julius said:


> Hi Trembling,
> 
> Can you recommend a provider for historical intra-day data on index futures?




Hi Julius,

Haven't used these guys personally, but have heard good things-

http://www.tickdata.com/

Not cheap though.


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