# Hydrogen



## Garpal Gumnut

I feel I need to get up to speed with Hydrogen and Hydrogen related stocks both on the ASX and in overseas markets. 

It is somewhat of a black hole in my knowledge

Could any ASF members appraise me of its present state as a future green fuel, as an investment , and that of the attendant stocks which may benefit from its use as fuel and in industry generally.

gg


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## Dona Ferentes

From a year ago





						National Hydrogen Roadmap - CSIRO
					






					www.csiro.au


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## Muchado

Ideally we want green hydrogen (from renewable energy) not blue hydrogen (from gas). With the LNPs "gas led recovery" plan I think we will be hearing a lot more about blue hydrogen.








						Europe’s Green Hydrogen Revolution Is Turning Blue
					

With the EU on the cusp of announcing its long-term hydrogen strategy, a huge question remains: Should blue hydrogen be excluded?




					www.google.com


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## qldfrog

Muchado said:


> Ideally we want green hydrogen (from renewable energy) not blue hydrogen (from gas). With the LNPs "gas led recovery" plan I think we will be hearing a lot more about blue hydrogen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe’s Green Hydrogen Revolution Is Turning Blue
> 
> 
> With the EU on the cusp of announcing its long-term hydrogen strategy, a huge question remains: Should blue hydrogen be excluded?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



Hydrogen once again:
follow the narrative, not the figures or facts:
Currently most of the hydrogen is actually coming from fossil fuel.aka fracking hydrocarbon style.
This remains the cheapest way to get it, not hydrolysis.
So either facts will not matter and you will see wpl and similar becoming main hydrogen plays  they can add a veneer of carbon capture and similar BS to become Greta proof

If we are co2 serious, then hydrolysis and cheap green power is the way to go:
Solar plus water we got some but not always ideal location then transport..wire as power till plant by port.so maybe reusing some of the gas trains infrastructure in CQ and NQ: docks and port etc
Other way to tackle this would be the minerals used in the cathode and anode for hydrolysis.I suspect not your usual iron ore, lastly:
New tanks will be required, and this is ,due to size ,a relatively export protected industry so local tank manufacturers could benefit
Happy to discuss, just throwing some ideas to benefit from the reset


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## sptrawler

qldfrog said:


> New tanks will be required, and this is ,due to size ,a relatively export protected industry so local tank manufacturers could benefit
> Happy to discuss, just throwing some ideas to benefit from the reset



Building these massive solar/ wind farm and electrolysers in the middle of nowhere, someone will make a fortune selling donga's, to house the contractors. 
Then there will be only certain companies, that can afford to gear up to carry the liquid H2, it will either have to be piped or trucked out.


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## So_Cynical

Gas can be manufactured, blue Hydrogen can be green if the gas comes from methane, sewerage and organic waste.


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## rederob

sptrawler said:


> Building these massive solar/ wind farm and electrolysers in the middle of nowhere, someone will make a fortune selling donga's, to house the contractors.
> Then there will be only certain companies, that can afford to gear up to carry the liquid H2, it will either have to be piped or trucked out.



Piping hydrogen to all mainland capital cities and beyond becomes a doddle as APA's existing network could add 10% hydrogen without any technical impediments, and solar-based electolysers could be built near many country population centres.


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## qldfrog

So_Cynical said:


> Gas can be manufactured, blue Hydrogen can be green if the gas comes from methane, sewerage and organic waste.



true, but things in perspective as always..yes you can, but how much h2 can you theorically get from these organic waste assuming you manage to use 100% of these.I do not even need to check  
so back to giant solar plant and water or fracking oil and gas


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## basilio

Hazar HZR is the most visible company attempting to make  hydrogen an economic reality.
Its process could be a  world changer...

There is also Leigh Creek.









						Hydrogen: an expensive bomb or a multi-billion dollar opportunity?
					

Australia’s chief scientist Alan Finkel describes hydrogen as “Australia’s next multi-billion dollar export opportunity’’ – and judging from two recent equity raisings, investors are willing to back the future of the earth’s most abundant element as a clean energy source.




					smallcaps.com.au
				








						hazergroup.com.au | Commercialising the Hazer Process
					






					hazergroup.com.au


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## wayneL

I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, hydrogen is problematic to store. Being the smallest molecule, it leaks through steel, and in doing so, makes the steel brittle.

Can anyone confirm or debunk?


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## qldfrog

wayneL said:


> I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, hydrogen is problematic to store. Being the smallest molecule, it leaks through steel, and in doing so, makes the steel brittle.
> 
> Can anyone confirm or debunk?



You are right,if you go back a couple of years, you will find posts from me about that: things like h2 car or trucks are pipe dreams as would be super leaky, and imagine an underground car park....
So fixed installation and h2 used as a battery overnight sure but otherwise, forget it..


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## Country Lad

wayneL said:


> I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, hydrogen is problematic to store. Being the smallest molecule, it leaks through steel, and in doing so, makes the steel brittle.
> 
> Can anyone confirm or debunk?




Hydrogen Embrittlement of Steel


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## sptrawler

They are definitely working on the problem, but as frog says a long way to go.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/hydrogen-storage-gets-real/3010794.article

A bit of Australian ingenuity?








						Australian invented hydrogen storage for homes and businesses hits the market
					

UNSW spin-off announces that it will start taking orders for one of the world’s first hydrogen based energy storage systems for homes and businesses.




					reneweconomy.com.au


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## Smurf1976

There's multiple sets of issues with hydrogen:

First is the market in the context of large scale production for trade.

There's always been use of hydrogen for industrial purposes but generally that has been produced on site either from electrolysis (for small amounts) or natural gas (large volumes).

In the context of using it as a fuel though, the market itself is uncertain given alternatives of the use of electricity directly or via batteries or using synthetic fuels.

Electric trains exist and are widely used. Hydrogen trains have been built but aren't common. Synthetic fuel could certainly be done.

Battery powered buses have been built. Hydrogen also have been built. Synthetic fuel's also an option.

And so on. How we're actually going to move trains, ships, aircraft and even buses in the future is not yet resolved, there's more than one alternative method in the mix and in some cases they directly compete. Pretty much any rail line can be electrified if we really want to for example, any use of hydrogen to power trains is competing against other ways of moving a train.

High grade industrial heat likewise. Hydrogen versus electric arc furnaces. Then there's induction heating and for lower intensity uses simple electric resistance heating.

Even residential and general commercial use there are uncertainties as to what future role gas networks will really play. Some will argue none, we're going fully electric, but there's a lot of detail issues with that in itself. Dead easy in some places, far harder in others. Go to Europe with its high density living, limited capacity electrical networks and hydronic systems designed for high temperature water and retaining reticulated gas in some form looks relatively attractive.

Something to note there is that the technically (engineering) best solution isn't necessarily the most practical in other ways. From a technical efficiency perspective the use of electricity wins over hydrogen but the commercial outcome may well be very different, technical efficiency isn't always the best way once other factors are included and there are countless examples of that throughout the economy.

When it comes to anyone trying to put figures on the size of the market at this point in time, at best they're basing it on an assumed scenario as to which technologies win out and are actually adopted or they're talking only about one specific buyer not the market overall. At worst they're just plucking numbers out of the air.

On the production side well hydrogen is an element and the product is the same regardless of how it's obtained. Electrolysis of water or reforming of fossil fuels or biomass (especially natural gas - CH4) produce the same end product.

How to produce it is a question of resources, economics, environmental issues and politics. From a technical perspective the end product's the same regardless.

Electricity as the source:

Electricity from whatever source + water > electrolysis > hydrogen and by-product oxygen. The oxygen if not wanted can be simply released to the atmosphere.

Natural gas as the source:

Natural gas (methane, CH4) + steam (H2O) at ~850'C under pressure reacts to produce hydrogen (H) and carbon monoxide (CO). Or to be more precise CH4 + H2O > CO + 3H2

Then CO from the first step + steam (H20) under pressure is reacted to produce hydrogen (H) and carbon dioxide (CO2). Or to be more precise CO + H20 > CO2 + H2

This process can be modified slightly to work with other hydrocarbon feedstocks such as ethanol and oil-based liquids.

Coal as the source:

Coal + Oxygen (O2) + steam (H20)  > carbon monoxide (CO) + carbon dioxide (CO2) + hydrogen (H2).

Then second step with the CO + steam as per the process to produce hydrogen from natural gas.

Production from hydrocarbons produces a concentrated CO2 waste stream. Since this is concentrated it would be straightforward to simply inject that into a depleted gas reservoir rather than releasing it to the atmosphere. That's unlike, say, the comparatively very dilute CO2 exhausted from the stack at a power station which is technically extremely problematic to capture and store.

Which brings me to the elephant sitting in the driveway:

Politics.

It's not my intention to make a political comment as such but it has to be said. In the Australian context, anything relating to energy production and use is _the_ issue politically. This is a country where we choose our Prime Minister based on their ideas about power generation - a situation that even those in the industry mostly seem to think has gone way too far and they've heard quite enough of but it's reality. 

Then there's controversy over natural gas supplies to south-eastern Australia, gas exports from other states, how to supply oil so long as we're still using it and so on.

Plus in some states water itself is subject to much the same politics with all manner of arguments, some true but many false.

I mention that because it seems rather likely that hydrogen will end up being caught up in all that indeed it involves the whole lot. It's a gas made from electricity and water - that ticks a lot of boxes on the tribal politics checklist.

I'd be very cautious in investing for that reason. You don't want to join the now rather long list of those who've got it right technically and economically but come unstuck politically when it comes to something involving energy.

Research the company and its projects very carefully and consider any political implications is my opinion there.


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## qldfrog

Smurf1976 said:


> There's multiple sets of issues with hydrogen:
> 
> First is the market in the context of large scale production for trade.
> 
> There's always been use of hydrogen for industrial purposes but generally that has been produced on site either from electrolysis (for small amounts) or natural gas (large volumes).
> 
> In the context of using it as a fuel though, the market itself is uncertain given alternatives of the use of electricity directly or via batteries or using synthetic fuels.
> 
> Electric trains exist and are widely used. Hydrogen trains have been built but aren't common. Synthetic fuel could certainly be done.
> 
> Battery powered buses have been built. Hydrogen also have been built. Synthetic fuel's also an option.
> 
> And so on. How we're actually going to move trains, ships, aircraft and even buses in the future is not yet resolved, there's more than one alternative method in the mix and in some cases they directly compete. Pretty much any rail line can be electrified if we really want to for example, any use of hydrogen to power trains is competing against other ways of moving a train.
> 
> High grade industrial heat likewise. Hydrogen versus electric arc furnaces. Then there's induction heating and for lower intensity uses simple electric resistance heating.
> 
> Even residential and general commercial use there are uncertainties as to what future role gas networks will really play. Some will argue none, we're going fully electric, but there's a lot of detail issues with that in itself. Dead easy in some places, far harder in others. Go to Europe with its high density living, limited capacity electrical networks and hydronic systems designed for high temperature water and retaining reticulated gas in some form looks relatively attractive.
> 
> Something to note there is that the technically (engineering) best solution isn't necessarily the most practical in other ways. From a technical efficiency perspective the use of electricity wins over hydrogen but the commercial outcome may well be very different, technical efficiency isn't always the best way once other factors are included and there are countless examples of that throughout the economy.
> 
> When it comes to anyone trying to put figures on the size of the market at this point in time, at best they're basing it on an assumed scenario as to which technologies win out and are actually adopted or they're talking only about one specific buyer not the market overall. At worst they're just plucking numbers out of the air.
> 
> On the production side well hydrogen is an element and the product is the same regardless of how it's obtained. Electrolysis of water or reforming of fossil fuels or biomass (especially natural gas - CH4) produce the same end product.
> 
> How to produce it is a question of resources, economics, environmental issues and politics. From a technical perspective the end product's the same regardless.
> 
> Electricity as the source:
> 
> Electricity from whatever source + water > electrolysis > hydrogen and by-product oxygen. The oxygen if not wanted can be simply released to the atmosphere.
> 
> Natural gas as the source:
> 
> Natural gas (methane, CH4) + steam (H2O) at ~850'C under pressure reacts to produce hydrogen (H) and carbon monoxide (CO). Or to be more precise CH4 + H2O > CO + 3H2
> 
> Then CO from the first step + steam (H20) under pressure is reacted to produce hydrogen (H) and carbon dioxide (CO2). Or to be more precise CO + H20 > CO2 + H2
> 
> This process can be modified slightly to work with other hydrocarbon feedstocks such as ethanol and oil-based liquids.
> 
> Coal as the source:
> 
> Coal + Oxygen (O2) + steam (H20)  > carbon monoxide (CO) + carbon dioxide (CO2) + hydrogen (H2).
> 
> Then second step with the CO + steam as per the process to produce hydrogen from natural gas.
> 
> Production from hydrocarbons produces a concentrated CO2 waste stream. Since this is concentrated it would be straightforward to simply inject that into a depleted gas reservoir rather than releasing it to the atmosphere. That's unlike, say, the comparatively very dilute CO2 exhausted from the stack at a power station which is technically extremely problematic to capture and store.
> 
> Which brings me to the elephant sitting in the driveway:
> 
> Politics.
> 
> It's not my intention to make a political comment as such but it has to be said. In the Australian context, anything relating to energy production and use is _the_ issue politically. This is a country where we choose our Prime Minister based on their ideas about power generation - a situation that even those in the industry mostly seem to think has gone way too far and they've heard quite enough of but it's reality.
> 
> Then there's controversy over natural gas supplies to south-eastern Australia, gas exports from other states, how to supply oil so long as we're still using it and so on.
> 
> Plus in some states water itself is subject to much the same politics with all manner of arguments, some true but many false.
> 
> I mention that because it seems rather likely that hydrogen will end up being caught up in all that indeed it involves the whole lot. It's a gas made from electricity and water - that ticks a lot of boxes on the tribal politics checklist.
> 
> I'd be very cautious in investing for that reason. You don't want to join the now rather long list of those who've got it right technically and economically but come unstuck politically when it comes to something involving energy.
> 
> Research the company and its projects very carefully and consider any political implications is my opinion there.



But we could see here the effect of O/S politics.
If Biden or his followers decide to go hydrogen, we will export hydrogen from CQ, not LPG.
And the choice will not be ours: just economics ...
 co2 production irrelevant, then if labour comes to power here, it will change again with another narrative.
I would not play any money on hydrogen at the current stage


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## sptrawler

qldfrog said:


> But we could see here the effect of O/S politics.
> If Biden or his followers decide to go hydrogen, we will export hydrogen from CQ, not LPG.
> And the choice will not be ours: just economics ...
> co2 production irrelevant, then if labour comes to power here, it will change again with another narrative.
> I would not play any money on hydrogen at the current stage



With the current media attention swinging away from Trump, climate change is the next cash cow for them, so IMO ramping anything green will happen whether we want it or not, whether it makes sense politically or financially as always is secondary to the media IMO.
It is more about winding up the masses, so whether it is practical is a side issue, what matters is "will it save the planet, Scotty".  😂 
Just my opinion and I'm not talking from a pro or against perspective.


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## SirRumpole

I believe hydrogen can be stored as hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and released by exposure to a silver catalyst. You will get a lot of heat and steam as the products are water and oxygen.

But I'm no expert.


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## jbocker

It was the thing that attracted me to Eden Energy (EDE) in the early days. Injecting H2 into methane to produce Hythane (their product) that significantly reduced CO and NOx emissions. India produces a lot of power from diesel generators and there was a market for Hythane blah blah. Still in play.
There was also made some buses run on Hydrogen. Had a few in Perth. It became a sad event. Abandoned around 2007.
Then they were able to produce Hydrogen from a (University Queensland) developed pyrolysis machine which stripped out the carbon. I think more as a side effect, the carbon exited (partly?) as nanotubes which can can be used in light weight high strength products. They added this into concrete mix and you get some excellent abrasive resistant concrete, potentially for highways that suffer from ice/snow clearing. Lots of tests done created edencrete, all looks good but they seem to struggle to make a $. What they actually do with the hydrogen I dont know!
All sounded good to me, but have tired of it and have left with a feeling that H2 generation, transport and containment is too hard. Someone will probably do much the same thing in the future, get the right spin on it and do fabulously well. Eden haven't got the spin right yet 😞. Maybe the market is still yet to mature.


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## rederob

The principal impediments to a hydrogen future are:

Energy loss 
Infrastructure
Demand
Irrespective of politics, there is presently no commercial imperative for hydrogen.
First, as Elon Musk has regularly pointed out, the production chain for hydrogen is energy intensive compared to batteries.  While that puts batteries in a strong position for land transport over the next decade or two, the physical constraint to a battery-powered future will be the inability to scale battery production fast enough, combined with the mining sector being unable to satisfy raw material demand.  In such a scenario the base case for hydrogen will grow, and the hydrogen cost curve will follow the downward trajectory of battery technology.
Second, apart from the fact there is very little hydrogen infrastructure around the world, there is presently no "best model" to work from.  And that's aside from the issue of blue or green hydrogen production.  That said, green hydrogen has the advantage of electroysers being nodal to population centres, and using fiber-reinforced polymer pipelines not only a means to distribute hydrogen but also to "store" the gas (as unlike water, hydrogen can be compressed within its pipelines and regulated to flow at a much lesser pressure to its end users, if necessary).
Finally, as the interactive graphic below shows, the potential demand covers all transport sectors and energy intensive industrial sectors:


The will be a major transitional hurdle to jump for each and every sector above and, of course, an extra cost.

While a number of posters bring out "tribal" issues, the real question is what are we planning for- globally - when fossil fuels run out?


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## sptrawler

IMO @rederob, there is an inevitability about hydrogen and nuclear, if global warming is to be stopped.
As you say there will be hurdles and costs, but the alternatives, don't work long term.
Just my opinion.
Now about this population issue?


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## So_Cynical

This reminds me of so many other threads where people get fixated on a few negatives instead of the opportunity.

Collins foods - People want to be healthy and fried chicken is in decline, back when CKF was $1.70 now 9+
Ethane pipeline fund - Oh there's only one customer and the chinese own it. was 70c taken over at 1.70
A2 Milk - The A2 protein thing is fake and unproven. floated at 1.50 and got to 20 odd bucks, now 10


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## Smurf1976

So_Cynical said:


> This reminds me of so many other threads where people get fixated on a few negatives instead of the opportunity.



Personally I see it as being about sorting the good companies from the duds.

As with every other industry,  some companies will succeed, someone will become the poster boy and the rest end up either taken over or going broke. 

Ideally you want to buy into whoever's going to become the poster boy for the industry. At the very least, avoid those who end up broke.


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## wayneL

So_Cynical said:


> This reminds me of so many other threads where people get fixated on a few negatives instead of the opportunity.
> 
> Collins foods - People want to be healthy and fried chicken is in decline, back when CKF was $1.70 now 9+
> Ethane pipeline fund - Oh there's only one customer and the chinese own it. was 70c taken over at 1.70
> A2 Milk - The A2 protein thing is fake and unproven. floated at 1.50 and got to 20 odd bucks, now 10



A little bit of technical analysis could be useful and taking one in or out of these, for what it's worth.


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## qldfrog

sptrawler said:


> IMO @rederob, there is an inevitability about hydrogen and nuclear, if global warming is to be stopped.
> As you say there will be hurdles and costs, but the alternatives, don't work long term.
> Just my opinion.
> Now about this population issue?



Remember Mr sprawler, narrative above facts,  be it global warming or overpopulation..


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## qldfrog

So_Cynical said:


> This reminds me of so many other threads where people get fixated on a few negatives instead of the opportunity.
> 
> Collins foods - People want to be healthy and fried chicken is in decline, back when CKF was $1.70 now 9+
> Ethane pipeline fund - Oh there's only one customer and the chinese own it. was 70c taken over at 1.70
> A2 Milk - The A2 protein thing is fake and unproven. floated at 1.50 and got to 20 odd bucks, now 10



Just buy oil now and you have bought hydrogen in the future, and untill that  time, you still sell oil.that is a one way *not* gamble


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## sptrawler

qldfrog said:


> Remember Mr sprawler, narrative above facts,  be it global warming or overpopulation..



Yes Mr Frog, but there is a lot of money to be made, before all this plays out and climate change currently has center stage. 
it is a bit like 5 years ago everyone was calling Elon Musk a nutcase, who would go broke, with his loony electric cars.
Now the narrative has changed, as political intervention happens, as per the U.K banning ICE vehicles from 2030.
Now the mainstream manufacturers have an albatross around their necks, having to not only supply the ICE cars and parts, but also pour billions into developing electric cars.
So in reality Musk has been given a huge boost, because he doesn't have to develop and support an ICE vehicle and legislation puts the onus on mainstream manufacturers to do both. 
Overpopulation is a taboo subject, don't mention the elephant sitting in the corner, where is a virus when you need it.


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## Smurf1976

sptrawler said:


> Yes Mr Frog, but there is a lot of money to be made, before all this plays out and climate change currently has center stage.
> it is a bit like 5 years ago everyone was calling Elon Musk a nutcase, who would go broke, with his loony electric cars.
> Now the narrative has changed, as political intervention happens, as per the U.K banning ICE vehicles from 2030.
> Now the mainstream manufacturers have an albatross around their necks



Off topic but I've come across this line of thinking many times.

Average person will say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" and will be quick to shoot down anyone looking further ahead as a needless worrier and so on.

In practice those looking further ahead are selling their about to be worthless assets to those who'll cross the bridge when they come to it.

It's a convenient arrangement for those with foresight.

As for the hydrogen - understand whether you're investing in actual hydrogen production or whether you're really investing in politics or a pump and dump scheme. You could make money in any of those, just try to work out what any particular company is actually about so you know when to sell.


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## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> As for the hydrogen, as I say - understand whether you're investing in actual hydrogen production or whether you're really investing in politics or a pump and dump scheme. You could make money in any of those, just try to work out what any particular company is actually about so you know when to sell.



As per usual nailed it smurf. 
I'm only involved in one H2 play and only in a small way, but up 110% on purchase price and they are really into the poo. 😂
People never stop making it and currently the methane is flared off, so anything productive will be a political winner. 
If it works. which takes us to your last sentence, ala Carnegie wave generators.  
Just my opinion.
On an aside, i'm seeing quite a few 'collectable' cars for sale.


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## sptrawler

Very interesting article, when you sweep away the vested interests, political biases and spin and focus on the actual relevant content. IMO
I will also post it the the 'the future of energy generation and storage' thread, as it really has some pertinent information, well in my humble opinion.








						Export superpower: AEMO to model even faster paths to net zero emissions
					

AEMO to model faster paths to net zero emissions, with new “Export Superpower” scenario to assume Australia to get there by 2040, and more rapid emission cuts in electricity grid.




					reneweconomy.com.au
				



From the articel:

The Australian Energy Market Operator is to model even faster paths to net zero emissions, with a new “Export Superpower” scenario to assume Australia will reach net zero emissions in the early 2040s, and the electricity grid will lead the way and achieve even more rapid emissions cuts.

AEMO – whose job is primarily to keep the lights on in Australia’s main grids – broke new ground earlier this year with the release of the second version of its Integrated System Plan, a 20-year blueprint that included a “step change” scenario that assumed 94 per cent renewables share by 2040 as technology costs fell and the world woke from its climate slumber to take decisive action.

A new 180 page document – its 2021 Draft Inputs Assumptions and Scenarios report – goes even further, and suggests new scenarios that include Australia reaching net zero emissions as early as 2040, with the electricity sector – where emission cuts are seen as more readily achievable – delivering even more rapid reductions. The plunging cost of green hydrogen will play an important role.

“The proposed Export Superpower scenario results in a significantly lower (carbon) budget than the 2020 ISP’s Step Change scenario over the period 2021-2050 due to the more ambitious global decarbonisation target,” AEMO notes.

Those budgets are reflected in the tables above. And it’s important to note that the South Australia state Liberal government has thrown its support behind the green hydrogen transition, releasing a new climate plan that aims for 500 per cent renewables by 2050. 

That means it will produce five times more than it needs for domestic electricity consumption, so hydrogen can be used in manufacturing or exported in various forms to other Australian states or international customers. 

AEMO has a positive outlook for the cost of clean hydrogen and is predicting that the cost of electrolysers – the key technology that uses wind and solar power to “crack” water and create hydrogen – will follow a similar trajectory to that of solar PV and battery storage, falling more than 70 per cent over the decade.


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## bk1

AEMO has a positive outlook for the cost of clean hydrogen and is predicting that the cost of electrolysers – the key technology that uses wind and solar power to “crack” water and create hydrogen – will follow a similar trajectory to that of solar PV and battery storage, falling more than 70 per cent over the decade.
That's a big call to simply compare two forms of energy systems like that and extrapolate those values. I'm sure its possible, but a lot more needs to be understood. Does this imply that green hydrogen can look forward to receiving an avalanche of subsidies in the form of feed in tariffs that wind and solar received? for instance? or is that a given?
 just off the top of my head...


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## sptrawler

bk1 said:


> AEMO has a positive outlook for the cost of clean hydrogen and is predicting that the cost of electrolysers – the key technology that uses wind and solar power to “crack” water and create hydrogen – will follow a similar trajectory to that of solar PV and battery storage, falling more than 70 per cent over the decade.
> That's a big call to simply compare two forms of energy systems like that and extrapolate those values. I'm sure its possible, but a lot more needs to be understood. Does this imply that green hydrogen can look forward to receiving an avalanche of subsidies in the form of feed in tariffs that wind and solar received? for instance? or is that a given?
> just off the top of my head...



IMO the AEMO will have some very knowledgeable engineers onboard, so if they make a statement, it is probably based on very good projections. Far better than the media or the politicians IMO.
They are responsible for the 'security and reliability' of the grid, I would assume they don't take that responsibility lightly.
From my experience in power generation, that responsibility is held in high regard.


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## basilio

Significant announcement in December from Alkaline Fuel Energy ( AFC UK) on joint production with ABB of a mobile hydrogen fuel cell based electric charging unit.  The process will allow widespread charging of electric vehicles off the grid using pollution free hydrogen.

AFC share price has jumped 350% since the announcement.

https://www.afcenergy.com/afc-energy-and-abb-partner-to-power-up-the-future-of-clean-ev-charging/


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## basilio

Twiggy Forest,  Chairman of Fortescue Metals, has been redirecting his energy to producing green hydrogen on a vast scale with the final intention of of producing green steel and revolutionizing Australias energy and steel industry. Just spent 5 months touring the investment centres around the world to create the framework for this nation changing venture.

Twiggy also sees this as an essential part of dealing with CC in the very near future. He is producing the Boyer Lectures on the ABC this year with the theme being  _*Rebooting Australia: How ethical entrepreneurs can help shape a better future**,. *_

Powerful stuff. I will repost this in other relevant threads.









						'The solution is hydrogen': Andrew Forrest lays out his plan to address climate change
					

Green hydrogen gives Australia an opportunity to slash our emissions — and if we get this right, the impact could be nothing short of nation-building, argues business leader Andrew Forrest.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Austwide

Thanks @basilio I found  confessions of a carbon emitter well worth reading.


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## Value Collector

rederob said:


> The principal impediments to a hydrogen future are:
> 
> Energy loss
> Infrastructure
> Demand
> Irrespective of politics, there is presently no commercial imperative for hydrogen.
> First, as Elon Musk has regularly pointed out, the production chain for hydrogen is energy intensive compared to batteries.  While that puts batteries in a strong position for land transport over the next decade or two, the physical constraint to a battery-powered future will be the inability to scale battery production fast enough, combined with the mining sector being unable to satisfy raw material demand.  In such a scenario the base case for hydrogen will grow, and the hydrogen cost curve will follow the downward trajectory of battery technology.
> Second, apart from the fact there is very little hydrogen infrastructure around the world, there is presently no "best model" to work from.  And that's aside from the issue of blue or green hydrogen production.  That said, green hydrogen has the advantage of electroysers being nodal to population centres, and using fiber-reinforced polymer pipelines not only a means to distribute hydrogen but also to "store" the gas (as unlike water, hydrogen can be compressed within its pipelines and regulated to flow at a much lesser pressure to its end users, if necessary).
> Finally, as the interactive graphic below shows, the potential demand covers all transport sectors and energy intensive industrial sectors:
> View attachment 116926
> 
> The will be a major transitional hurdle to jump for each and every sector above and, of course, an extra cost.
> 
> While a number of posters bring out "tribal" issues, the real question is what are we planning for- globally - when fossil fuels run out?




There is definitely applications where hydrogen Tech and other synthetic fuels will thrive and other areas where battery tech will thrive.


----------



## rederob

Another example of too little too late.
If you notice the wording, it talks of *clean *hydrogen:
References to hydrogen​Unless otherwise indicated, references to hydrogen in this report refer to *clean *hydrogen. Clean hydrogen is produced using renewable energy or using fossil fuels with substantial carbon capture and storage (CCS). This definition reflects a technology-neutral stance.​​So the funding is significantly about hydrogen from fossil fuels, as  almost half the budget allocation is for CCS.
We appear to have a rock ape as our minister for Energy!


----------



## rederob

Here's a concise and up to date explanation of where things are at in terms of actual use today, and what's in the pipeline:


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

One of my Hydrogen mates forwarded this on to me. 

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/chi...earth-hydrogen-storage-alloy-starts-in-china/

gg


----------



## TechnoCap

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my Hydrogen mates forwarded this on to me.
> 
> https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/chi...earth-hydrogen-storage-alloy-starts-in-china/
> 
> gg



is hydrogen really that rare?


----------



## sptrawler

TechnoCap said:


> is hydrogen really that rare?



No


----------



## qldfrog

sptrawler said:


> Noût



As abondant as can be, just hidden in water


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

qldfrog said:


> As abondant as can be, just hidden in water



@TechnoCap 

Yes, as one of my muses Samuel T. Coleridge said.
Water, water everywhere, / Nor any drop to drink

H2 is there, but to paraphrase another, William Shakespeare, who presaged this conundrum through Hamlet.
H2, or H20 : that is the question....
Or to take arms against a *sea *of troubles

gg


----------



## Value Collector

TechnoCap said:


> is hydrogen really that rare?



The articles headline refers to “Rare Earth” materials, being used to make the storage device.

it’s not saying the hydrogen is rare.

“rare earth” is a name given to a few metals.


----------



## sptrawler

Looks as though the airlines are starting to investigate H2, well they probably have been for awhile, it is just the transition from fossil fuels is accelerating.








						Air NZ to work with Airbus on carbon-free hydrogen planes
					

Air New Zealand will work with Airbus to study the viability of flying hydrogen-powered aircraft on short domestic routes, as it aims to operate carbon-free flights by the end of this decade.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Sean K

sptrawler said:


> Looks as though the airlines are starting to investigate H2, well they probably have been for awhile, it is just the transition from fossil fuels is accelerating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air NZ to work with Airbus on carbon-free hydrogen planes
> 
> 
> Air New Zealand will work with Airbus to study the viability of flying hydrogen-powered aircraft on short domestic routes, as it aims to operate carbon-free flights by the end of this decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.smh.com.au




I really don't understand how hydrogen can be used for a jet engine. Do they need to make new engines that operate with H2 or just change the fuel cells?

It sounds like they think it will work domestically for short flights but long haul is a major problem. 

Their solution seems to be to use biofuels. Do they know how many acres of land need to be cleared to grow enough corn to produce a litre of ethanol I wonder? What's worse for the environment? Maybe they should be methane capturing cow farts to propel their planes. 

_However, Air NZ produces the bulk of its emissions from long-haul international flying. Mr Foran said switching to low-emission biofuel remained the only viable option to tackle those emissions, and that the airline was exploring the viability of producing “sustainable aviation fuel” locally with the New Zealand government._


----------



## sptrawler

kennas said:


> I really don't understand how hydrogen can be used for a jet engine. Do they need to make new engines that operate with H2 or just change the fuel cells?
> 
> It sounds like they think it will work domestically for short flights but long haul is a major problem.
> 
> Their solution seems to be to use biofuels. Do they know how many acres of land need to be cleared to grow enough corn to produce a litre of ethanol I wonder? What's worse for the environment? Maybe they should be methane capturing cow farts to propel their planes.
> 
> _However, Air NZ produces the bulk of its emissions from long-haul international flying. Mr Foran said switching to low-emission biofuel remained the only viable option to tackle those emissions, and that the airline was exploring the viability of producing “sustainable aviation fuel” locally with the New Zealand government._



Hydrogen can be fired through a jet turbine, or a power station gas turbine, in a similar manner to aero fuel, the only difference will be the injection and firing method. The volatility and energy density of hydrogen is similar to oil based fuel and LPG.
https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2019/hydrogen-capable-gas-turbine.html

Long haul flights will be powered by scram or ram jets, which use hydrogen fired through a vortex which doesn't have blades, currently they are only used on hypersonic missiles, but they are being developed for plane application. They have to be travelling at about 1,000klm/hr to ignite, but speeds of up  to 14,000 km/hr is achievable in theory. 









						Boeing’s Proposed Hypersonic Plane Is Really, Really Fast
					

Supersonic planes are always almost here, but maybe the way to fly is to go faster. Much, much faster.




					www.wired.com
				












						The scramjet is a super-fast, experimental engine with no moving parts
					

As a concept, the hypersonic scramjet has been around since the 1960s, but engineers only now have the material to




					createdigital.org.au


----------



## Value Collector

kennas said:


> I really don't understand how hydrogen can be used for a jet engine. Do they need to make new engines that operate with H2 or just change the fuel cells?
> 
> It sounds like they think it will work domestically for short flights but long haul is a major problem.
> 
> Their solution seems to be to use biofuels. Do they know how many acres of land need to be cleared to grow enough corn to produce a litre of ethanol I wonder? What's worse for the environment? Maybe they should be methane capturing cow farts to propel their planes.
> 
> _However, Air NZ produces the bulk of its emissions from long-haul international flying. Mr Foran said switching to low-emission biofuel remained the only viable option to tackle those emissions, and that the airline was exploring the viability of producing “sustainable aviation fuel” locally with the New Zealand government._



If I had to guess, I think that synthetic fuels will eventually be viable, eg Hydrogen made from Electrolysis is  combined with carbon extracted from the Air to make hydrocarbon fuels, basically a cleaner version of the hydrocarbon fuels we currently make using crude oil.

Or they could use the hydrogen to make ammonia based fuels, FMG is already running a train on ammonia, and trailing a ship engine, if it could work in jets it would the holy grail, eg jet fuel from renewable electricity.


----------



## sptrawler

Value Collector said:


> If I had to guess, I think that synthetic fuels will eventually be viable, eg Hydrogen made from Electrolysis is  combined with carbon extracted from the Air to make hydrocarbon fuels, basically a cleaner version of the hydrocarbon fuels we currently make using crude oil.
> 
> Or they could use the hydrogen to make ammonia based fuels, FMG is already running a train on ammonia, and trailing a ship engine, if it could work in jets it would the holy grail, eg jet fuel from renewable electricity.



That is the exciting part, hydrogen is the key to clean, high energy density fuel, without residual leftover waste.
If humans are to survive for another 7million years on Earth, as they have done already, they have to come up with a sustainable lifestyle which means sustainable fuel, food and shelter.
Also a cap on population wouldn't go astray IMO. 🤣
Who knows, we maybe already working on that.


----------



## Value Collector

sptrawler said:


> That is the exciting part, hydrogen is the key to clean, high energy density fuel, without residual leftover waste.
> If humans are to survive for another 7million years on Earth, as they have done already, they have to come up with a sustainable lifestyle which means sustainable fuel, food and shelter.
> Also a cap on population wouldn't go astray IMO. 🤣
> Who knows, we maybe already working on that.



Interesting talk from Andrew Forrest, he believes hydrogen/ammonia will be the solution for what he calls the “difficult third” of the energy sector that can’t be solved with batteries and electricity.


----------



## sptrawler

Value Collector said:


> Interesting talk from Andrew Forrest, he believes hydrogen/ammonia will be the solution for what he calls the “difficult third” of the energy sector that can’t be solved with batteries and electricity.




I think Forrest is doing exactly the right thing,   de leveraging from iron ore.


----------



## Smurf1976

kennas said:


> I really don't understand how hydrogen can be used for a jet engine.



As a concept no different to running it on kerosene (jet fuel) or for ground use the more commonly used natural gas, diesel or less commonly LPG.

So long as it burns and contains no ash then as a concept it's straightforward.

Obviously some more detail in practice making sure materials don't degrade, nothing bad happens with varying altitude and so on but ultimately it's just a flame burning so the engine works and the rest is just fine detail to ensure safety etc.

Given there's plenty of gas turbines sitting on the ground for electricity generation, and no reason why one specifically intended for aircraft use can't be put to that use, there's plenty of opportunity to undertake extensive testing of alternative fuels cheaply and in relative safety with it all sitting on the ground. Then once that's refined and any problems sorted out, put them on an actual aircraft.


----------



## Dona Ferentes

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel I need to get up to speed with Hydrogen and Hydrogen related stocks both on the ASX and in overseas markets. It is somewhat of a black hole in my knowledge.
> 
> Could any ASF members appraise me of its present state as a future green fuel, as an investment, and that of the *attendant stocks* *which may benefit from its use as fuel and in industry generally.



* _attendant stocks _.... would that be the elevator busboy helping out?

ATF Securities have just launched an ETF  *HGEN *...

The HGEN ETF will track the _*Solactive Global Hydrogen ESG Index*_, which is a basket of 30 companies in the hydrogen space globally.

But (promoter) Chugh says some of these companies offer exposure to other green energy themes too, naming *Nel ASA (FRA7G)* as one. Nel ASA produces hydrogen from water and has the world’s largest factory that makes hydrogen refuelling stations, which top up the tanks of hydrogen powered tanks and cars.



> “People often look at it and say ‘Do I go battery technology, do I do hydrogen or can I merge the two together’ and I think with a company like NEL they’re working with Nikola, one of the competitors to Tesla, to produce electrolyses at their refuelling stations so they’re widening infrastructure,” he said.





> “Another is *PLUG (NDQ: PLUG)* which makes fuel cells, they turn hydrogen into energy and some of their customers include Amazon, Home Depot and Walmart. They’re focused on electric forklifts and they’re working towards expanding their value chain – they’re acquiring green hydrogen producers.”





> “It’s quite diverse so when you’re thinking about mega-trends it has to be agnostic to country, agnostic to sectors – so that’s very much the case here.”


----------



## basilio

Came across this review of various mechanisms for hydrogen production. A number of interesting alternatives noted.









						The weekend read: Hydrogen is getting cheaper
					

Electrolyzer manufacturers are in agreement on the goal of rapidly reducing investment costs, mainly through economies of scale. Some are embracing large units, while others are betting on quantity over size. The first approach is attractive for operators of large PV plants, while the latter is...




					www.pv-magazine.com


----------



## Value Collector

basilio said:


> Came across this review of various mechanisms for hydrogen production. A number of interesting alternatives noted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The weekend read: Hydrogen is getting cheaper
> 
> 
> Electrolyzer manufacturers are in agreement on the goal of rapidly reducing investment costs, mainly through economies of scale. Some are embracing large units, while others are betting on quantity over size. The first approach is attractive for operators of large PV plants, while the latter is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pv-magazine.com



I can’t see the benefit of producing hydrogen at home, if you have excess solar you would be better with a battery system, much less energy losses.


----------



## SirRumpole

Value Collector said:


> I can’t see the benefit of producing hydrogen at home, if you have excess solar you would be better with a battery system, much less energy losses.




Plus the fact that hydrogen is very difficult to store and leaks out of most containers.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Plus the fact that hydrogen is very difficult to store and leaks out of most containers.



Plus to have a reasonable amount it has to be compressed.


----------



## Smurf1976

SirRumpole said:


> Plus the fact that hydrogen is very difficult to store and leaks out of most containers.



Plus it has an extremely wide flammability range in air and no smell of its own.

I'm not expecting we'll see hydrogen used in residential situations, ever, for that reason. Industrial yes, automotive maybe but residential no. The stuff is just too hard to contain and causes too many issues with embrittlement, flammability range etc to have people messing about with it at home.


----------



## SyBoo

BBQ    https://merlin.unsw.edu.au/energyh/h2q/


----------



## Smurf1976

Smurf1976 said:


> 'm not expecting we'll see hydrogen used in residential situations, ever, for that reason.



I should clarify there that I mean in terms of in the house for kitchens and so on. I'm not seeing that we'll end up reticulating hydrogen with pipes under the streets and plumbing houses for it in the way that's done with natural gas since doing so is hugely problematic.

Obviously very different if we're talking about a small hydrogen container used as a portable source for whatever purpose. That has an order of magnitude less piping and issues with the flammability range.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> I should clarify there that I mean in terms of in the house for kitchens and so on. I'm not seeing that we'll end up reticulating hydrogen with pipes under the streets and plumbing houses for it in the way that's done with natural gas since doing so is hugely problematic.
> 
> Obviously very different if we're talking about a small hydrogen container used as a portable source for whatever purpose. That has an order of magnitude less piping and issues with the flammability range.



There has been talk of introducing a small quantity of hydrogen into the LNG reticulated system.






						Energy Ministers | energy.gov.au
					

Energy Ministers from the Australian Government and state and territory governments are working together on key issues in the energy sector.




					energyministers.gov.au
				












						What effect will blending Hydrogen into the Natural Gas network have? - Energy Post
					

What are the technical barriers to blending hydrogen into the natural gas network? How well will the pipelines cope? How will the blend affect equipment and appliances? What are the costs and environmental impacts? The answers to these key questions are being sought by a collaboration of...




					energypost.eu
				






			https://www.energynetworks.com.au/resources/reports/identifying-the-commercial-technical-and-regulatory-issues-for-injecting-renewable-gas-in-australian-distribution-gas-networks-research-report-energy-pipelines-crc/


----------



## Smurf1976

sptrawler said:


> There has been talk of introducing a small quantity of hydrogen into the LNG reticulated system.



A few % no problem. Various trials being done including one in SA.

The idea that we'd reticulate pure hydrogen at the residential level using the existing gas pipes however has a lot of problems with it and I'll be very surprised if it happens. Everything from metal embrittlement through to the very wide flammability range of it makes the idea of people using it in their kitchens at least somewhat concerning. It needs far stricter standards than does natural gas, in a situation where costs tend to be cut and maintenance is hit and miss at best.

It's not impossible we end up with every house having hydrogen piped into it but it's far more complex than just changing what's put into the existing gas pipes and adjusting burners. It's not like the change from town gas to natural gas for example which was relatively straightforward.

Different for industry etc obviously.


----------



## basilio

SyBoo said:


> BBQ    https://merlin.unsw.edu.au/energyh/h2q/




That was an enlightening reference SyBoo. Whatever our preconceived ideas of what is technically possible are, I suspect rapid new discoveries can change the picture.

And  naturally  issues of commercial practicality, cost effectiveness and *sheer willingness *to develop a product come into play.

From direct experience I'm very aware of how promising new technologies are  often bought out by  current competing interests who then kill them because they threaten to destroy the viability of their own product. 

In 2021  the fight to the death is between a costly, polluting, very  finite fossil fuel industry and a clean, infinite, cheaper renewable energy future.


----------



## basilio

NSW Hydrogen strategy.  

NSW Hydrogen Strategy welcomed by industry​


 By Lauren Davis 
Friday, 15 October, 2021 






NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet has announced the launch of the NSW Hydrogen Strategy, claiming it will help the state attract more than $80 billion of investment, drive deep decarbonisation and establish itself as an energy and economic superpower.
“NSW will lead the country with this hydrogen strategy,” the Premier said.

“Our major trading partners see hydrogen as part of their energy future; this state has the skills, infrastructure and renewable energy resources to compete globally in this new industry.”

Treasurer and Energy Minister Matt Kean said the strategy, which will provide up to $3 billion in incentives, will set the state up as a global hydrogen leader and is forecast to increase the size of the NSW economy by more than $600 million by 2030.

“Hydrogen will not only help the state halve our emissions by 2030 and get to net zero by 2050, it will create new opportunities for our heavy industry, and an economic bonanza of investment and jobs,” Kean said.

“This strategy is forecast to more than halve the cost of green hydrogen production in NSW and will make NSW the best place to invest in hydrogen in the world.”

In addition to delivering an already committed $70 million to develop the state’s hydrogen hubs in the Illawarra and the Hunter, the strategy includes








						NSW Hydrogen Strategy welcomed by industry
					

Premier Dominic Perrottet says the NSW Hydrogen Strategy will help the state drive deep decarbonisation and establish itself as an energy and economic superpower.




					www.sustainabilitymatters.net.au


----------



## bk1

Did you ask the working man for an opinion, or shall we simply follow the Iron Ore messiah, that West Australian visionary, a great Australian with a destiny.

From the above link....

AWU National Secretary Daniel Walton: _" if we’re investing in hydrogen infrastructure, why not build the electrolysers here?"_
Why would we do that? Costs are too high in this country. More fundamentally, for green hydrogen to ever get to parity with competing fuels we need scale up manufacture to move to SE Asia for GWatt scale, similar to what occurred with PV. 

_"We also need a hydrogen reservation policy so a portion of the hydrogen we produce in this country is set aside to sell to Australian factories providing Australian jobs"_
At what price? consequently, how much subsidy is required to keep an AU industry going? Current cost of Australian green hydrogen - $5/kg
Parity needed with competing fuels - $2/kg (using renewable powered electrolysers).
Massive subsidies required
Scale in electrolyser manufacture
Further reductions in the price of renewable power


----------



## Smurf1976

No reason why scale and technological leadership can't be achieved in Australia.

We've already done it three times in the energy industry after all. At the national level, we've got a pretty decent list of achievements when it comes to hydro, brown coal and LPG with all of them having been replicated internationally and we're doing it again with solar PV in the grid right now, we're once again leading the world technically. 

No reason we can't apply that with hydrogen.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> We've already done it three times in the energy industry after all. At the national level, we've got a pretty decent list of achievements when it comes to hydro, brown coal and LPG with all of them having been replicated internationally and we're doing it again with solar PV in the grid right now, we're once again leading the world technically.
> 
> No reason we can't apply that with hydrogen.



Be careful what you say, giving Australia credit, isn't appreciated by some on here.


----------



## sptrawler

Some starting to complain about the Woodside hydrogen plan.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-woodsides-hydrogen-plan-20211028-p5940q.html


----------



## sptrawler

Geoscience Australia on hydrogen production in Australia.





						Hydrogen | Geoscience Australia
					

Geoscience Australia is the national public sector geoscience organisation. Its mission is to be the trusted source of information on Australia's geology and geography to inform government, industry and community decision-making. The work of Geoscience Australia covers the Australian landmass...




					www.ga.gov.au


----------



## rederob

@sptrawler's link explains that meso-scale maps show  that Australia's greatest wind potential lies in the coastal regions of western, south-western, southern and south-eastern Australia. Coastal regions with high wind resources (wind speeds above 7.5m/s) include the west coast south of Shark Bay to Cape Leeuwin, along the Great Australian Bight and the Eyre Peninsula in South Australia, to western Victoria and the west coast of Tasmania.
Developing wind farms on land is relatively cheap and easy.
However, offshore wind is significantly more reliable and has comparatively massive output advantages, as shown below:


----------



## sptrawler

Investigations commence into powering trucks with hydrogen fuel cells.









						Green hydrogen trucks to help cut transport emissions
					

Green hydrogen power could be used to fuel the world’s heaviest fuel cell electric trucks in a $12.5 million investment to drive down emissions in the transport sector.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the srticle:
Hydrogen power could be a clean replacement for the carbon-intensive diesel fuel powering transport fleets, and Australia is looking to cash in on the world’s green technology push with a $12.5 million investment to develop zero emission trucks.

The Clean Energy Finance Corporation (CEFC), a federal government-run “green bank”, announced on Monday it will finance five purpose-built, zero-emissions trucks, the construction of hydrogen production and refuelling infrastructure.

The transport sector is Australia’s third-largest source of greenhouse gases, producing 17.5 per cent of emissions.

The announcement comes as Australia is emerging as a front-runner among nations vying to become hydrogen-exporting powerhouses amid fresh projections showing demand for the fuel could increase six-fold by 2050

CEFC’s hydrogen fuel cell electric trucks will complete a 30-kilometre trip as they move zinc ore from Townsville Port in Queensland to a metal refinery, where they will refuel with green hydrogen produced on-site. The initial five zero emissions trucks are expected to abate about 1300 tonnes of carbon dioxide per year.


----------



## Ann

....and do we have a youbeut ETF for hydrogen yet?  Sure do!  Just listed recently...HGEN

The top 10 constituents are listed on the chart.


----------



## Sean K

Ann said:


> ....and do we have a youbeut ETF for hydrogen yet?  Sure do!  Just listed recently...HGEN
> 
> The top 10 constituents are listed on the chart.




I've bought some of this to see how it goes. I hope it's more than just a fad after COP and the tech actually works on scale. _Hope_, the operative word. 🤞


----------



## Ann

Sean K said:


> I've bought some of this to see how it goes. I hope it's more than just a fad after COP and the tech actually works on scale. _Hope_, the operative word.



Twiggy Forrest FMG and Woodside are just two names taking this technology seriously. Not saying it won't be full of hype of course!


----------



## Sean K

Ann said:


> Twiggy Forrest FMG and Woodside are just two names taking this technology seriously. Not saying it won't be full of hype of course!




Let's hope Twiggy does a Fortescue and not a Poseidon on his investment in H2.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I've just had a look at all the little H2 piglets on my watchlist.

All save for HGEN, WES and ORG seem to have taken to the shallow end with variable losses, some as high as 9 to 12%..

And looking at New Yawk I reckon HGEN may take a further shave or even lose one ear providing a chance for me to enter down the track.

WES and FMG are easy to hold atm. but the latter has the ole Twigs who marches to his own drum. 

gg


----------



## Ann

I just took a quick look at this thread and it does not appear anyone has put a list of stocks with a greater or lesser degree of interest in Hydrogen as yet.
As has already been mentioned there is HGEN ETF plus...
From largest to smallest market cap.

WES 	-Wesfarmers Limited 	$67.13b 	
FMG 	-Fortescue Metals Group Ltd 	$47.63b 	
ORG 	-Origin Energy Limited 	$8.81b 	
IPL 	       - Incitec Pivot Limited 	$6.27b 	
AGL 	-AGL Energy Limited. 	$3.38b 	
HZR 	-Hazer Group Limited 	$236.95m 	
PRL 	-Province Resources Ltd 	$192.04m 	
PH2 	-Pure Hydrogen Corporation Limited 	$167.92m 	
TNG 	-TNG Limited 	$105.52m 	
SPN 	-Sparc Technologies Limited 	$97.68m 	
ECT 	-Environmental Clean Technologies Limited. 	$68.48m 	
GEV 	-Global Energy Ventures Limited 	$67.15m 	
EDE 	-Eden Innovations Ltd 	$55.43m 	$1,922.2k 	
HXG 	-Hexagon Energy Materials Limited 	$40.59m 	
PGY 	-Pilot Energy Limited 	$35.61m 	
SRJ 	        -SRJ Technologies Group PLC 	$31.93m 	
ADX 	-ADX Energy Ltd 	$31.9m 	
QEM 	-QEM Limited 	$24.95m 	
LIO 	-Lion Energy Limited 	$22.94m 	
MR1 	-Montem Resources Limited. 	$15.32m


----------



## Miner

a job advertisement from BP seeking engineering managers tells lot of stories on their work






						Engineering Manager - Hydrogen
					






					www.bp.com
				








						3,000+ Engineering Manager jobs in Australia (186 new)
					

Today’s top 3,000+ Engineering Manager jobs in Australia. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. New Engineering Manager jobs added daily.




					www.linkedin.com


----------



## Ann

Looking at GEV today gave me pause to wonder how hard it would be to convert shipping from petro to hydro @Smurf1976 or anyone?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I believe the Hydrogen stocks have had a good run and will retrace. 

This year seems to have been a cycle of fads... oilers, iron ore, tech, biotech, lithium, kaolin, golders, crypto and now Hydrogen. Up n down. Up n down and Up again in some cases. 

I might throw a dart just at Golders for the December Competition. It is time for a run up in my favourite metal again. 

The cousins in China and India will be tossing it about over the NY and Religious holidays and on the Feast of St. Jinping, who of the latter Shakespeare wrote many a fine scene. 

Not that Hydrogen will not be a long term goer. Just not for the small outfits or the ETF. I believe FMG, WES and Overseas outfits will dominate eventually.

gg


----------



## basilio

Ann said:


> Looking at GEV today gave me pause to wonder how hard it would be to convert shipping from petro to hydro @Smurf1976 or anyone?



FMG is taking a lead on this issue.  They are developing the technology to use green ammonia as the fuel for the iron ore tankers they use for transporting their ore to China.  They are converting one of the carriers at the moment and  it will be operational in 2022. Check out the story.






						Fortescue Future Industries calls for net zero target for shipping by 2040 and announced a green ship at sea in 2022 | Fortescue Metals Group Ltd
					






					www.fmgl.com.au


----------



## Ann

"FFI’s Green Fleet Team is moving quickly to convert the 75 metre vessel, the “MMA Leveque”, in collaboration with MMA Offshore Limited, over the next 12 months so it can run almost totally on green ammonia.  

This brings the shipping industry much closer to becoming carbon neutral well before 2040 with only entrenched industry practices slowing global progress of carbon neutral shipping."

Thanks @basilio, that is very interesting. Good to see MRM finally travelling above the 200dsma, let's hope it can keep its head above water this time! 

Twiggy won't be worried about the cost at this stage, it still seems experimental and makes a good story (sorry I am old and cynical) and maybe more a 'show boat' so to speak. 

I was more interested in the practical logistics, cost and feasibility of converting the current fleet of working ships to hydro.


----------



## Smurf1976

Ann said:


> I was more interested in the practical logistics, cost and feasibility of converting the current fleet of working ships to hydro



Converting engines itself is very doable and not overly difficult.

For example a small team of people in Tasmania from the university backed with support from the electricity industry successfully converted "standard" engines to hydrogen and that was ~15 years ago now. At one point a converted Toyota Corolla was entered in an actual car race to prove the point - there was never any expectation of winning, it's a Corolla not a Ferrari, but it drew attention to the idea and proved that it can be done.

For shipping, a lot's going to come down to the age of any given ship and whether the owners see any value in "green credentials" or not. That'll vary between companies. Nobody's going to convert a ship that's near the end of its life anyway. Etc.

Also will depend on where it goes. One that operates a fixed route only needs to be able to refuel at one or both ends of that route. Versus one that sails to lots of ports which becomes more problematic if they don't have hydrogen available.

LNG is already used in shipping to some extent and we do have experience with that in Australia to some extent.

There's one on the Victoria - Tasmania freight run operated by SeaRoad using a ship built overseas http://gasenergyaustralia.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Media-Release-SeaRoad-launch_120716.pdf

Also Incat in Hobart have successfully built from scratch an LNG powered catamaran for an overseas customer. https://incat.com.au/lng-expertise/

So using gas as a fuel for ships is already a thing, albeit natural gas, but it does show that running ships with gas as such is practical so long as there's a supply of it where the ship operates.


----------



## sptrawler

Ann said:


> Looking at GEV today gave me pause to wonder how hard it would be to convert shipping from petro to hydro @Smurf1976 or anyone?



Well Ann that is a good question, from what I know ( I do have marine qualifications, but have never worked on ships), they can be driven by a lot of methods e.g diesel low/medium speed direct drive, diesel electric where a diesel drives a generator which drives the propellers.

LNG tankers use dual fuel reciprocating similar to diesel.

Gas turbine these are used in warships and a few cruise ships, one that comes to mind is Radiance of the Seas.

Steam boiler/ generator supplying electric drives.

So getting onto hydrogen, IMO it would depend on the value of the hydrogen as to which primary drive you would use for the ship, it would have to be a cost vs emissions equation IMO. No point in burning your cargo, if it is worth a lot more to sell at market.
For example, if the hydrogen is going to Japan, so they don't burn coal, you wouldn't use it to drive the ship, if a small amount of low sulphur diesel could be used to drive the ship. The net gain in emission reduction would justify using the diesel IMO.

Just another one of those issues you mentioned, that will need to be resolved on the road to nirvana and another one of the issues that has to looked at in a holistic way rather than through the narrow tunnel of small minds.


----------



## Ann

Very well explained  @Smurf1976 and @sptrawler, thank you. Of course the availability of Hydrogen at ports I hadn't considered. Won't be available until needed, won't be needed until available. I can see a slight problem there!  Burning your cargo, interesting! Provided your cargo is hydrogen and not cars.
I didn't realize shipping could run on LNG, that is interesting (showing my appaling ignorance here, meh).  One of the companies I listed (SRJ) was working on hydrogen compatible piping as I believe Hydrogen is harder to pump. If the ships were fitted with the kind of piping that could run Hydrogen, they could also run gas for the interim, if I am right? Quite do-able really.

So my takeaway is, no big deal to convert the ships but simply the logistics of refuelling and the availability of hydrogen.  Got it!


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Well Ann that is a good question, from what I know ( I do have marine qualifications, but have never worked on ships), they can be driven by a lot of methods e.g diesel low/medium speed direct drive, diesel electric where a diesel drives a generator which drives the propellers.
> 
> LNG tankers use dual fuel reciprocating similar to diesel.
> 
> Gas turbine these are used in warships and a few cruise ships, one that comes to mind is Radiance of the Seas.
> 
> Steam boiler/ generator supplying electric drives.
> 
> So getting onto hydrogen, IMO it would depend on the value of the hydrogen as to which primary drive you would use for the ship, it would have to be a cost vs emissions equation IMO. No point in burning your cargo, if it is worth a lot more to sell at market.
> For example, if the hydrogen is going to Japan, so they don't burn coal, you wouldn't use it to drive the ship, if a small amount of low sulphur diesel could be used to drive the ship. The net gain in emission reduction would justify using the diesel IMO.
> 
> Just another one of those issues you mentioned, that will need to be resolved on the road to nirvana and another one of the issues that has to looked at in a holistic way rather than through the narrow tunnel of small minds.



Yeah it wouldn't be smart (or likely..)  to burn your cargo just to get to a destination. I'd be confident that the change to a hydrogen (or ammonia) as a fuel will be simply replacing the fuel components of the vessel.

As has been noted the technical side of engine capacity is doable. The trick, I believe, will be using  (green) ammonia as the hydrogen carrier and sorting out the practical logistics of supply, storage etc.

FMG has decided to sort out these issues for it's own fleet and I imagine will offer open source support to any other shipping companies to enable them to move as cost effectively and quickly as practical. It is in their interest as drivers of (green) hydrogen based shipping to demonstrate it's capacity as they ramp up production of the fuel.


----------



## basilio

Hydrogen Central website pulls together the range of Hydrogen projects being planned and developed around the world.
A lot of action out there.!









						Hydrogen Central - News & Market Intelligence to stay ahead
					

Hydrogen Central is your source of news and market intelligence on the Hydrogen industry. Discover market trends and stay ahead of the curve




					hydrogen-central.com


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Yeah it wouldn't be smart (or likely..)  to burn your cargo just to get to a destination.




Actually on the LNG carriers, they do burn their cargo, to get to the destination. 
Like I said, it all will go back to a cost vs emissions equation.
In an holistic equation, the end result has to be lower emissions, otherwise it is all a waste of time and money.


----------



## Smurf1976

Ann said:


> So my takeaway is, no big deal to convert the ships but simply the logistics of refuelling and the availability of hydrogen.



Conventional shipping fuels, that is fuel oil and marine diesel, are one of those things that's available anywhere you'd need it to be available. 

Versus very few shipping ports would have any hydrogen available at all, and certainly not be set up to fuel a ship with it.

So point to point shipping runs are likely to be the first to change since the ship(s) and refuelling infrastructure can be done as a single project. Then as that becomes more common, it becomes practical for other ships to use it.

Eg the use of LNG to run ships across Bass Strait creates infrastructure that enables any other LNG powered ship to be refuelled too. Same concept with hydrogen once it gets going.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Actually on the LNG carriers, they do burn their cargo, to get to the destination.
> Like I said, it all will go back to a cost vs emissions equation.
> In an holistic equation, the end result has to be lower emissions, otherwise it is all a waste of time and money.



Touche  Makes perfect sense doesn't it  ?

Smurf summed it up well. The technical changeover is straightforward. The need for refueling infrastructure and a hydrogen fuel supply or equivalent at the right price then becomes the issue.

It will be interesting to see if Ammonia gets used as the hydrogen carrier.  It's far easier to transport than hydrogen  and has many other industrial uses as well.









						A Key To The ‘Hydrogen Economy’ Is Carbon-Free Ammonia
					

In truth, though, many challenges remain to building out a hydrogen economy, including processes related to producing carbon-free hydrogen in the first place.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Touche  Makes perfect sense doesn't it  ?
> 
> Smurf summed it up well. The technical changeover is straightforward. The need for refueling infrastructure and a hydrogen fuel supply or equivalent at the right price then becomes the issue.



Not really, we were talking about the shipping of hydrogen and using it as a fuel for the ship.

But whatever rows your boat, we can move the goal posts, to suit. 🤣


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> But whatever rows your boat, we can move the goal posts, to suit.



 I didn't realise we were playing games SP. 

It does make sense for an LNG carrier to be powered by LNG. So it would make equal sense for a hydrogen tanker to be powered by hydrogen ? Or perhaps an Ammonia tanker to be powered by Ammonia ? Perhaps an oil tanker to be powered by fuel oil ? Whatever . We can set up goal posts all around the ground ..


----------



## sptrawler

Well you started it, in post #85, don't get weird about it, what was the roll eyes about? I thought I had made a valid comment.

Why would it make sense for a hydrogen tanker to run on hydrogen, if it ends up using more hydrogen in the voyage that could have been used at the destination, to mitigate more greenhouse gas than it mitigated in the voyage.
That doesn't make sense.
Eventually it would make sense, when hydrogen production is such that it is abundant, but in the early stages that may not be so.

Like I said if the hydrogen is going to Japan and it is replacing coal generation, say the hydrogen the ship used on the voyage saved 20 tons of CO2 as opposed to diesel, but the same amount of hydrogen being delivered saved 30 tons of CO2 because of reduced coal burning.
What was the point of using the hydrogen to run the ship?

I don't know where you are coming from, I'm trying to be objective and sensible, games  aren't my bag but I don't tolerate someone trying to take the pizz out of me.



basilio said:


> Yeah it wouldn't be smart (or likely..)  to burn your cargo just to get to a destination. I'd be confident that the change to a hydrogen (or ammonia) as a fuel will be simply replacing the fuel components of the vessel.
> 
> As has been noted the technical side of engine capacity is doable. The trick, I believe, will be using  (green) ammonia as the hydrogen carrier and sorting out the practical logistics of supply, storage etc.
> 
> FMG has decided to sort out these issues for it's own fleet and I imagine will offer open source support to any other shipping companies to enable them to move as cost effectively and quickly as practical. It is in their interest as drivers of (green) hydrogen based shipping to demonstrate it's capacity as they ramp up production of the fuel.


----------



## Austwide

_Eg the use of LNG to run ships across Bass Strait creates infrastructure that enables any other LNG powered ship to be refuelled too. Same concept with hydrogen once it gets going.
_
Initially and maybe still, the LNG to power the ships is loaded into cryogenic containers and trucked to the ship. The containers are used as the fuel tank and then taken off and refilled. There were (are) no LNG facilities at the docks.

I can't see why this system would not be suitable for other fuels in the early stages. The main problem would be the amount of containers required for voyagers longer than the 1000km Tassie to Melb round trip.


----------



## sptrawler

Curtin university may have developed a cheaper electrolyser.









						Nickel, cobalt allow for cheaper, more efficient green hydrogen production
					

A team at Curtin University found that poor-performing iron-sulfur becomes an efficient catalyst for green hydrogen production with added nickel and cobalt.




					www.mining.com


----------



## Ann

Hydrogen sounds like the perfect fuel for a raft ( ) of pump and dumps to me!


----------



## sptrawler

Ann said:


> Hydrogen sounds like the perfect fuel for a raft ( ) of pump and dumps to me!



I tend to agree with you on that, the trick is picking the pumps and avoiding the dumps.


----------



## Ann

sptrawler said:


> I tend to agree with you on that, the trick is picking the pumps and avoiding the dumps.



As the ole country boys sing ...Walk the line and know when to close!


----------



## sptrawler

W.A Government, to develop hydrogen hubs in Karratha and Geraldton.








						WA pledges $117m to stay in the global hydrogen race
					

The WA government is looking for federal support for two hydrogen hubs near Karratha and Geraldton to help WA grab market share for the future clean fuel, with Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Future Industries a likely early tenant.




					www.watoday.com.au
				




The WA government will spend $117 million to build infrastructure at proposed industrial estates at Maitland, near Karratha, and Oakajee, north of Geraldton, if bids for federal government funds submitted this week are successful.

In September, the federal government launched a competitive bid process for $464 million of matching funding for clean hydrogen hubs around Australia

WA, that is a third of the continent, is seeking 25 per cent of the available funds.

If the Maitland bid is successful a hydrogen or ammonia pipeline from the estate 40 kilometres south of Dampier Port would be built to the Burrup Peninsula.

Ms MacTiernan said gas company Woodside and Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Future Industries both had “great interest” in Maitland. The government would wait for a company to commit to a project at Maitland before building the pipeline.

If successful both estates would eventually house hydrogen and ammonia production plants, but the power required would have to come from wind and solar farms in surrounding regions.


----------



## rederob

Assuming it comes off, Sinopec will be the proving ground for grid scale *green *hydrogen.
Elsewhere new electrolyser technologies are in the proving mix. 
While BEVs might be the flavour of the month, green hydrogen will imho become the flavour of the decade as a rush to decarbonisation materialises.
Not sure which parties are pushing the hydrogen barrow in the coming election, but if they knew how much energy the northern hemisphere will need, especially those poor in natural resources, they might work out why we need to steal a march on other nations blessed with similar capacity to knock it out cheaply.


----------



## basilio

This  Hyzon website brings together much of the industrial development around hydrogen.

Well worth a scout IMV.









						Interviews
					

H2 View is a new platform to support and promote the growing hydrogen economy. Built around three core pillars of Mobility, Power and Technology




					www.h2-view.com


----------



## mullokintyre

South ustralia has joinrd the Hydrogen Bandwagon.
 from The Australian


> Construction of the world’s largest hydrogen electrolyser facility, to be built in Port Pirie, could begin in little more than a year, with an engineering study into the $750m project under way.
> Global commodities company Trafigura, which owns the Nyrstar lead smelter at Port Pirie, and the state government will co-fund a $5m “front end engineering and design” study into building a hydrogen plant next to the current lead smelter.
> 
> Trafigura general manager Australia Tim Rogers said the company expected to be in a position to make a final investment decision on the project by the end of 2022, and with approvals in place, construction would start the following year.
> The project would create 150-300 jobs during construction and up to 25 ongoing roles, and solidify Port Pirie’s future as an industrial hub, Mr Rogers said.
> 
> The project would be built out in stages, with the full-scale plant able to produce 100 tonnes per day of green hydrogen from a 440 megawatt electrolyser – a device which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen using renewably-sourced energy.



Guess its the only way they can keep a heavily electric dependant industry running.
Depending on how good the storage medium is, it would be an ideal way to use the "spare" electricity generated by solar rooftops and other renewable projects when demand is at an ebb (like in the middle of the day on Sunday when its not too hot for airconditioners ).

Mick


----------



## sptrawler

Things are quietly moving along.









						Kawasaki Heavy says liquefied hydrogen carrier may leave Japan this month
					

The world's first liquefied hydrogen carrier could leave Japan for Australia to pick up its first cargo of hydrogen late this month though the return date has yet to be set due to COVID-19, Japan's Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd said on Friday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## basilio

I found an excellent resource on the current advances hydrogen production technololy. Well worth checking out IMV


Home Articles
Producing cheap, clean hydrogen: new updates​By Julian Atchison on December 8, 2021

Key techno-economic drivers reducing the cost of hydrogen​


	

		
			
		

		
	
Click to enlarge. 
Waterfall chart illustrating the various contributions to reducing the levelised cost of hydrogen from Bristowe & Smallbone, “The Key Techno-Economic and Manufacturing Drivers for Reducing the Cost of Power-to-Gas and a Hydrogen-Enabled Energy System“, _Hydrogen_, July 2021.

A team at Durham University has shown that a massive scale-up of PEM electrolyser manufacturing capability can slash the capital costs of producing electrolyser units by up to 70%. Mass manufacturing would also have a large impact on the price of hydrogen, with deployment & installation of the produced electrolyser units then driving down the $/kg cost even further. The authors use a baseline production capacity of ten 200kW PEM electrolyser units per year for a given factory, noting that the largest PEM electrolyser factory in the world currently has 30 MW production capacity (~150 units). Planned multi GW factories will be capable of producing 5,000 of these units per year per GW of production capacity.

The authors estimate that the current, baseline cost of hydrogen ($6.40/kg) would be pushed down to $4.16/kg if production capacity was lifted to 5,000 units per year. Improvements in offshore wind turbine technology and a ten-fold scale-up of current installed electrolyser capacity further reduces the cost of hydrogen to $2.63/kg, with a one hundred-fold scale-up further reducing the cost to $1.57/kg. A similar pattern holds for the capital cost of electrolyser units: a baseline of $1990/kW, to $590/kW (production capacity increases) then on to $431/kW and $300/kW (installed capacity increases).

Avoiding water competition in hydrogen production​


	

		
			
		

		
	
Click to learn more.

 Important characteristics of global hydrogen production, looking ahead to 2050 (based on the IEA’s “Net Zero by 2050” report). From Germscheidt et al., “Hydrogen Environmental Benefits Depend on the Way of Production: An Overview of the Main Processes Production and Challenges by 2050“, _Advanced Energy and Sustainability Research_, June 2021.

In their review of different production pathways, a team from the University of Campinas has proposed more focus on electrolysis of waste and seawater to produce hydrogen. The use of water sources unfit for human consumption to produce hydrogen represents an opportunity to “produce clean energy with social responsibility”, according to the authors.

Prototypes and small-scale demonstrations of wastewater & microbial electrolysis cells exist and show promise (especially if deployed in a distributed, point-of-use fashion), but significant material engineering obstacles stand in the way of seawater electrolysis. The authors note that progress has been made applying protective layers to electrodes to block the approach of interfering species, and that promising work is proceeding in high-performing catalysts that are a mixture of Pt and earth-abundant metals.

New catalysts for hydrogen production from sunlight​


	

		
			
		

		
	
Click to learn more. 
New catalyst structures for hydrogen production directly form sunlight, from Butson et al., “Surface-Structured Cocatalyst Foils Unraveling a Pathway to High-Performance Solar Water Splitting“, _Advanced Energy Materials_, Nov 2021.

And a team from the Australian National University has demonstrated a new pathway forward for hydrogen production directly from sunlight. A new “photoelectrode” design incorporates optimised photoabsorbers (Si and GaAs) with an earth-abundant cocatalyst (in this study, a Ni-based foil) achieves a solar-to-hydrogen efficiency of 13.6% and maintains an efficiency of over 10% for longer than nine days – results previously unreported in solar water splitting systems.

In an interview with Australian press, the authors explain that their approach solves a common stability issue with photoelectrodes by using the Ni-based cocatalyst foil to shield the operational surface from chemical degradation. The possibility of combining solar photovoltaic cells with solar water splitting cells on household rooftops also presents an exciting opportunity: distributed, small-scale green hydrogen production that can be used onsite to offset intermittent renewable energy generation.



			https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/producing-cheap-clean-hydrogen-new-updates/


----------



## basilio

Every man, his dog and their puppies has a new hydrogen project on the boil.
This one is special.  The project sucks water out of the air and then splits it into hydrogen and oxygen.


Solar to bloom in the desert thanks to innovative NT green hydrogen project​A $15 billion green hydrogen project that utilises solar powered water-from-air technology to save on the cost of hydrogen generation and save the precious water resources of arid regions, has received Major Project Status from the Northern Territory government and aims to be in commercial production by 2023.
 December 14, 2021 Blake Matich

 Hydrogen 
 Installations 
 Markets 
 Markets & Policy 
 Utility Scale PV 
 Asia 
 Australia 
 Northern Territory 



Aqua Aerem plans to utilise its water-from-air technology to save costs on green hydrogen generation, and also save precious water resources in arid regions.
_ Image: Aqua Aerem / Screenshot _
Share​






The Northern Territory (NT) government has granted Major Project Status to water-from-air technology company Aqua Aerem to develop its $15 billion 10 GW Desert Bloom Hydrogen project (Desert Bloom) in Tennant Creek, NT, with ambitious plans for commercial production by 2023.

Around the world, large-scale green hydrogen projects are being touted for highly irradiated regions looking to utilise solar resources for the much touted future green hydrogen economy. However, it is often the case that highly sunny places are also places of high water scarcity. And this is exactly the hurdle Desert Bloom has a unique ability to avoid.

According to Aqua Aerem (literally ‘water-air’ in Latin), for every one kilogram of hydrogen produced, nine litres of water is required. Aqua Aerem’s patented proprietary technology captures water from the atmosphere in arid environments using off-grid solar energy, with no waste other than air. This commercial quantity of water can then be used in solar electrolysis whereby water is split into its constituent parts, namely hydrogen and oxygen.

Aqua Aerem’s co-founder and CEO Gerard Reiter said the project was “transformative” in the way it had managed to overcome water supply and solar/electrolysis integration problems that have so far held back global renewable hydrogen production.

“With today’s announcement, the pathway for green hydrogen becomes a reality,” said Reiter. “Our air-to-water technology, which solves this previously intractable water supply problem, is a world first; invented and developed here in Australia. This technology will open the door for green hydrogen projects to be located where the best renewable power sources are available, which is generally in the driest areas of the planet.”









						Solar to bloom in the desert thanks to innovative NT green hydrogen project
					

A $15 billion green hydrogen project that utilises solar powered water-from-air technology to save on the cost of hydrogen generation and save the precious water resources of arid regions, has received Major Project Status from the Northern Territory government and aims to be in commercial...




					www.pv-magazine-australia.com


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## sptrawler

First shipment of liquid hydrogen due to be loaded in Victoria, a huge step forward on the hydrogen road.









						Australian hydrogen market achieves key export milestone – but with the wrong colour
					

Australia achieves major milestone with purpose-built ship arriving to take first shipment of liquid hydrogen to Japan. But it’s not green hydrogen – and it’s not even clean.




					reneweconomy.com.au


----------



## wayneL

Hydrogen fuel cells = massive CO2 emissions.


----------



## sptrawler

Well at last a good overview of what we have been saying for years, but it sounds better in a media article.








						How Does A Hydrogen Jet Engine Work?
					

As Airbus and CFM partner on the manufacturer's A380 testbed, we take a look at how hydrogen internal combustion engines work.




					simpleflying.com


----------



## sptrawler

For all the rev heads out there, don't despair there is hope.









						Toyota, Yamaha working on hydrogen-burning V8 engine
					

Toyota and Yamaha are working on a hydrogen-fueled V8 engine that could take the place of electric motors in future vehicles.




					www.foxnews.com


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## basilio

Step change in efficiency in hydrogen electrolysers. And the technology has been developed in Australia ..
Be very interesting to see how effective this technology actually is. There is more to the story than one element.
But the take away point is that there is much research and advances in the field.

Australian researchers claim ‘giant leap’ in technology to produce affordable renewable hydrogen​Morrison government’s hydrogen stretch goal of $2 a kilogram to make the fuel competitive could be reached by 2025, Hysata says

Get our free news app; get our morning email briefing



Hysata chief executive officer Paul Barrett and chief technology officer Gerry Swiegers with the company’s capillary-fed electrolysis cell. Photograph: Mark Newsham

Peter Hannam
Wed 16 Mar 2022 06.56 GMTLast modified on Wed 16 Mar 2022 06.58 GMT


Australian researchers claim to have made a “giant leap” in lifting the efficiency of electrolysers, bringing forward the time when green hydrogen will be competitive with fossil fuels as an energy source.
Hysata, a company using technology developed at the University of Wollongong, said its patented capillary-fed electrolysis cells achieve 95% efficiency, meaning little wastage, beating by about one-quarter the levels of current technology.

The achievement, published in the peer-reviewed Nature Communication journal today, could see the Morrison government’s so-called hydrogen stretch goal of $2 a kilogram to make the fuel competitive reached as soon as 2025, the Hysata chief executive, Paul Barrett, said.



SA environment minister challenges Morrison government to ‘fast-track’ electric vehicle transition
Read more
“We’ve gone from 75% [efficiency] to 95% – it’s really a giant leap for the electrolysis industry,” Barrett said.









						Australian researchers claim ‘giant leap’ in technology to produce affordable renewable hydrogen
					

Morrison government’s hydrogen stretch goal of $2 a kilogram to make the fuel competitive could be reached by 2025, Hysata says




					www.theguardian.com
				









						Technology | Hysata
					






					hysata.com


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## basilio

Further details on Hysta technology





Technology

Electrolysers use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and are the key technology for producing green hydrogen.
Green hydrogen is widely acknowledged to be a crucial part of reaching net zero emissions globally, enabling decarbonisation of hard-to-abate sectors like steel, heavy transport and chemicals.
It is expected to supply 15-25% of energy in a net zero global economy, creating a huge commercial and decarbonisation opportunity.
The main challenge today for the green hydrogen industry is that existing electrolysers are complex, costly and only moderately efficient.
Over the last 50 years, there have only been incremental improvements in electrolyser designs.
Until now.
Hysata has completely redesigned the electrolyser, resulting in a step-change improvement over existing designs, redefining efficiency, balance of plant simplicity and modular manufacturability.



Hysata’s technology offers step-change improvements in 3 key areas:​ 





                               New category of electrolysis with world’s highest efficiency                          


95% system efficiency (41.5 kWh/kg), compared with ~75% for incumbents (52.5 kWh/kg)
Low-cost design, based on earth-abundant materials





                               Simplified balance of plant (BOP)                          

High cell efficiency eliminates the need for expensive cooling
Efficient, low-cost, grid-friendly power electronics
Integrated BOP and stack design to provide an optimised, turnkey system that delivers high purity green hydrogen at the lowest levelised cost
 



                               Ease of manufacturing and scaling                          


Manufacturing is based on simple unit operations; easy to automate and scale
Modular technology – same basic building block for MWs to tens of GW installations


----------



## JohnDe

Hydrogen development is receiving a boost, with Germany’s rush to move away from Russian gas.

UAE, Germany sign ‘blue hydrogen’ contract in Abu Dhabi​


----------



## sptrawler

Hydrogen and LNG in Australia getting some positive comments from the Japanese ambassador, China/Russia obviously making them nervous also.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04...acing-too-many-eggs-in-china-basket/100947006
From the article:
Mr Yamagami said Japan had been subject to a similar campaign by its North Asian neighbour 12 years ago when China restricted exports of rare earth materials needed for several high-end manufacturing industries.
He said the episode was the catalyst for Japan's move away from a near-total reliance on Chinese rare earths towards other suppliers, including Australia.
And he noted that the decision had all but underwritten the development of Western Australia's Mount Weld mine, which is operated by local rare earths champion Lynas Corporation.
"Japan succeeded in reducing dependence on Chinese source from almost 90 per cent to 60 per cent," Mr Yamagami said.
Amid a wholesale push by Japan to develop a "hydrogen economy", Mr Yamagami said Tokyo was betting big that Australia would be crucial to making the ambition a reality.

Much like Japan had bankrolled Australia's iron ore and LNG industries in the 20th century, he said there was every expectation the same would happen with hydrogen.

He said that while the most advanced project between the two countries involved converting coal into hydrogen in Victoria — a so-called brown hydrogen project — there were as many as 20 other projects on the drawing board.

Many of these, he said, would produce fewer or even no emissions by using gas or renewable energy as the feedstock, potentially holding a key to both countries' emissions targets.

Despite the focus on hydrogen, Mr Yamagami acknowledged Japan would rely on natural gas to help power its $6.6 trillion economy — the world's third-biggest — for many years to come.

He declined to be directly drawn on industry speculation that the massive Browse gas field off WA's north-west coast could be used to backfill the $45 billion Ichthys LNG project owned by Japanese company INPEX.

However, he said the benefits to Japan of stable energy supplies from a country such as Australia were paramount and "it is possible for INPEX to enhance its project in Australia".

"We are not like Russia. We are not like China … we are not running a planned economy," Mr Yamagami said.


----------



## basilio

This article fills in some key points about the costs  and comparisons between hydrogen and other fuels.

Some rules of thumb of the hydrogen economy​
June 11, 2021

Most analysis of the role of hydrogen in the global economy uses numbers that are not immediately translatable into conventional measurements. The purpose of this article is to offer some simple rules of thumb that help place hydrogen alongside other parts of the energy system






						Some rules of thumb of the hydrogen economy | Carbon Commentary
					

Most analysis of the role of hydrogen in the global economy uses numbers that are not immediately translatable into conventional measurements. The purpose of this article is to offer some simple rules of thumb that help place hydrogen alongside other parts of the energy system.   1, A kilog




					www.carboncommentary.com


----------



## mullokintyre

Bloombergs  can see a potential problem with Hydrogen replacing fossil fuels, which of course cause climate change.
Bloombergs Climate Change


> A world desperate for a climate-friendly fuel is pinning its hopes on hydrogen, seeing it as a way to power factories, buildings, ships and planes without pumping carbon dioxide into the sky.
> 
> But now scientists are warning that hydrogen leaked into the atmosphere can contribute to climate change much like carbon. Depending on how it’s made, distributed and used, it could even make warming worse over the next few decades, even if carbon poses the bigger long-term threat. Any future hydrogen-based economy, they say, must be designed from the start to keep leaks of the gas to a minimum, or it risks adding to the very problem it’s supposed to solve. Some ideas now being tested, like shipping hydrogen in pipelines built to hold natural gas or burning it in individual homes, could cause an unacceptable level of leaks.
> 
> “The potency is a lot stronger than people realize,” said Ilissa Ocko, a climate scientist with the Environmental Defense Fund, a non-profit group. “We’re putting this on everyone’s radar now not to say ‘no’ to hydrogen but to think about how we deploy it.”
> 
> Hydrogen doesn’t trap heat directly, the way CO₂ does. Instead, when leaked it sets off a series of chemical reactions that warm the air, acting as an indirect greenhouse gas. And though it cycles out of the atmosphere far faster than carbon dioxide, which lingers for centuries, it can do more damage than CO₂ in the short term. Over 20 years, it has 33 times the global warming potential of an equal amount of carbon dioxide, according to a recent UK government report. Over hundreds of years, carbon is more dangerous, due to its longevity.
> 
> 
> Hydrogen’s warming potential was never a problem before, as its use was largely limited to oil refineries and chemical or fertilizer plants. But now governments worldwide are investing billions to build a hydrogen economy, seeing the gas as one of the only options for decarbonizing many industries that can’t easily run on electricity. President Joe Biden has set aside $8 billion to build at least four “hydrogen hubs” where the fuel will be produced and used, and states are gearing up to compete. US utility companies that now deliver natural gas see it as a savior, announcing more than two dozen hydrogen pilot projects in the last two years.



Sometimes. ya just can't win.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector

mullokintyre said:


> Bloombergs  can see a potential problem with Hydrogen replacing fossil fuels, which of course cause climate change.
> Bloombergs Climate Change
> 
> Sometimes. ya just can't win.
> Mick



Ok, so I just did some reading on this and the issue is a little complex, but I think hydrogen will be much better than fossil fuels, let me explain the issue.

So two of the worst green house gases are Carbon dioxide and Methane, these gases retain heat in the atmosphere and will cause climate change.

Methane is about 25 times worse than Carbon dioxide at trapping heat, but over time methane breaks down into carbon dioxide using “Hydroxl Radicals” that exist in the atmosphere, so methane with have a half life of about 9 years.

Now Hydrogen itself does not trap heat like carbon or Methane, however hydrogen also uses Hydroxl radicals in its chemical reactions back to stable molecules.

So if a lot of hydrogen is leaked, it could cause Methane to break down at a slower rate, which would be bad for climate change.

The reason I don’t think this will be a big issue is

1. As we move away from fossil fuels we should be leaking less methane into the atmosphere from Oil and gas wells and coal mines.

2, you would think that the hydrogen leaks should be small compared to the amount of Carbon being emitted from the fuels it’s replacing. Eg even if it’s 33 times worse than Carbon dioxide it might be offsetting more than 33 times the amount of carbon, especially when you factor in leaks of methane.

3, once hydrogen does form other molecules, it doesn’t leave behind carbon, where as Methane does.

So over all Methane is the problem, which is leaked from Oil and gas wells even old abandoned ones, coal mines, decaying plastics, land fills and also animal factory farms. Atleast the hydrogen industry should reduce oil, gas and coal dependence over time, and therefore methane to


----------



## Knobby22

mullokintyre said:


> Bloombergs  can see a potential problem with Hydrogen replacing fossil fuels, which of course cause climate change.
> Bloombergs Climate Change
> 
> Sometimes. ya just can't win.
> Mick



The future for Hydrogen is not as a general gas replacement and  using existing low pressure gas pipes ro transport it is just dangerous.

Hydrogen will be used for many different industrial processes, some we haven't thought of yet.


----------



## basilio

Value Collector said:


> Ok, so I just did some reading on this and the issue is a little complex, but I think hydrogen will be much better than fossil fuels, let me explain the issue.
> 
> So two of the worst green house gases are Carbon dioxide and Methane, these gases retain heat in the atmosphere and will cause climate change.
> 
> Methane is about 25 times worse than Carbon dioxide at trapping heat, but over time methane breaks down into carbon dioxide using “Hydroxl Radicals” that exist in the atmosphere, so methane with have a half life of about 9 years.
> 
> Now Hydrogen itself does not trap heat like carbon or Methane, however hydrogen also uses Hydroxl radicals in its chemical reactions back to stable molecules.
> 
> So if a lot of hydrogen is leaked, it could cause Methane to break down at a slower rate, which would be bad for climate change.
> 
> The reason I don’t think this will be a big issue is
> 
> 1. As we move away from fossil fuels we should be leaking less methane into the atmosphere from Oil and gas wells and coal mines.
> 
> 2, you would think that the hydrogen leaks should be small compared to the amount of Carbon being emitted from the fuels it’s replacing. Eg even if it’s 33 times worse than Carbon dioxide it might be offsetting more than 33 times the amount of carbon, especially when you factor in leaks of methane.
> 
> 3, once hydrogen does form other molecules, it doesn’t leave behind carbon, where as Methane does.
> 
> So over all Methane is the problem, which is leaked from Oil and gas wells even old abandoned ones, coal mines, decaying plastics, land fills and also animal factory farms. Atleast the hydrogen industry should reduce oil, gas and coal dependence over time, and therefore methane to




I was watching an excellent program called  The Climate Show on Sky News ... and came across a promising *commercial *technology to transform methane into pure hydrogen and graphene. Appears cost effective and seems to be an excellent way to pick up the methane leakages from current landfills, coal mines ect.

The story comes at the 16 min mark.









						Climate Show: The 'magic' methane box
					

Tom Heap presents a new weekly programme about climate change. This week features a piece of tech that turns methane into a 'miracle material'.




					news.sky.com
				




The company with the technology and a current contract with UAE is Levidian









						Flare Gas into Hydrogen and Graphene, Levidian Closes Deal in UAE - Hydrogen Central
					

Flare gas into hydrogen and graphene, Levidian closes deal in UAE. Levidian announces the first customer agreement to deploy LOOPs with Zero




					hydrogen-central.com


----------



## Dona Ferentes

liked this quote:


> “Hydrogen has been described as the ‘Swiss Army knife’ of energy solutions, which is to say: it can do just about anything, but is not always the best tool for the job,”



from a crowd  that has a TLA, so they must punch well for their weight

_"Making hydrogen from gas and using carbon capture and storage to reduce emissions has questionable “clean” credentials, while its cost-competitiveness is also in doubt_," said Institutional Shareholder Services, which advises pension funds and others on decisions around their corporate investments.


----------



## JohnDe

This is the first that I have heard of a "gold" hydrogen, naturally occurring underground.



> *H2EX, CSIRO to study “gold” hydrogen potential on Eyre Peninsula*
> 
> Perth exploration start-up H2EX is tapping into the research expertise of Australia's national science agency as it steps up its bid to unearth “gold” hydrogen in South Australia.
> 
> The company has entered into a research agreement with the CSIRO in the search for naturally occurring hydrogen, after recently securing its first exploration licence on the Eyre Peninsula.
> 
> H2EX said the CSIRO would undertake a “desktop study” of the licence area - covering close to 6000sq m of land - as a first step towards understanding the natural hydrogen system in the region.
> 
> Historical drilling records indicate that hydrogen at up to 85 per cent purity could be tapped in the region.
> 
> The potential for natural hydrogen in Australia was underlined in a research paper published by the CSIRO and Geoscience Australia last year, which documents accidental discoveries of hydrogen across the country.
> 
> Natural hydrogen deposits form through chemical reactions underground, with the most well-known process being the oxidation between water and iron sediments.
> 
> Unlike “green” or “blue” hydrogen, which use energy and capital-intensive processes to extract hydrogen from water or natural gas, natural or “gold” hydrogen needs little processing and is potentially far cheaper and more energy-efficient to produce.
> 
> After adapting its resources legislation last year, South Australia remains the only state or territory where there is a legislative framework allowing companies to explore for natural hydrogen.
> 
> H2EX is one of a handful of companies that have since sought permits across the state, and according to advisory firm EnergyQuest, almost a third of the state is now covered by exploration licences or licence applications.
> 
> H2EX is progressing applications covering 32,000sq km.
> 
> The company’s co-founder and chief executive Mark Hanna said the CSIRO study on the Eyre Peninsula would be the first of its kind in the region, with the outcomes of the research expected by the end of the year.
> 
> “We are one of the first companies in the world to explore for natural hydrogen,” he said.
> 
> “This is an important step in finding clean energy sources created by Mother Nature for Australian local communities and industry.”
> 
> Mr Hanna, a former Woodside Petroleum executive, established H2EX alongside partner Greschen Brecker who is also ex-Woodside.
> 
> Former Woodside chief executive Peter Coleman, who chairs the board and is a major financial backer of the company, said the CSIRO was at the “forefront of natural hydrogen research and field work”.
> 
> The gold hydrogen push in South Australia is being led by Brisbane-based Gold Hydrogen, which was the first Australian company to secure a hydrogen exploration licence.
> 
> The company, which is aiming to drill for hydrogen on South Australia’s Yorke Peninsula and Kangaroo Island, recently brought in former foreign minister Alexander Downer to chair its board.
> 
> South Australia is positioning itself as a major hydrogen hub, with the state government planning its own $593m hydrogen production, storage and energy facility at Whyalla in the Upper Spencer Gulf.
> 
> AGL is also assessing the viability of a hydrogen hub at its Torrens Island power station site near Port Adelaide, with heavyweights Brickworks, Adbri and INPEX also on board.
> 
> Naturally-occurring hydrogen is currently produced at just one site globally, in Mali.
> 
> GIUSEPPE TAURIELLO BUSINESS REPORTER


----------



## JohnDe

Imagine this in the tank behind your seat


----------



## sptrawler

JohnDe said:


> Imagine this in the tank behind your seat



Kind of explains why 5kg of H2 gets a car 600km and 60kg of petrol gets the same distance.


----------



## basilio

This story takes some beating. A Hong Kong company has developed a product called Si plus which release hydrogen when it is mixed with water.

That simple. A silicon powder which  produces pure hydrogen when mixed with water.

For real ? Or just a giant con. ?



Overview​Our Group (EPRO Advance Technology Limited and its subsidiaries)
provides renewable energy solutions that will power the future. We have
developed an array of energy-efficient, eco-friendly products that both store
and produce clean energy. One of the company’s principal products, silicon
material (Si+), can be used as anodic material for rechargeable lithium-ion
batteries, increasing the energy densities of current state-of-the-art batteries
by more than 30%. Si+ can generate Hydrogen energy on-demand through
our engineered and manufactured Si+ Hydrogen Modules.

Our History dates back to 2003, when Lau Lee Cheung, Executive
Director and Chairman, and Albert Lau, Executive Director and CEO,
built a lab in Shaoguan, Guangdong, PRC. Initial research focused on
materials for solar panels, especially ways to reduce high purity quartz ore
via electrolysis. After years of effort, we developed a process to produce
a silicon material whose uses greatly exceeds our earlier projects.









						About | EPRO Advance Technology
					

Our Group (EPRO Advance Technology Limited and its subsidiaries) provides renewable energy solutions that will power the future. We have developed an array of energy-efficient, eco-friendly products that both store and produce clean energy.




					www.epro-atech.com
				












						EPRO Avanced Technology - Crucial Breakthrough in Hydrogen Energy Generation, Storage and Transportation Announced - Hydrogen Central
					

EPRO Avanced Technology - crucial breakthrough in hydrogen energy generation, storage and transportation announced.




					hydrogen-central.com


----------



## moXJO

JohnDe said:


> Imagine this in the tank behind your seat




The energy difference though


----------



## mullokintyre

Rio has started the war on hydrogen.


> From The evil Murdoch press
> Rio Tinto’s chief scientist has fired a shot across the bows of companies and governments banking on green hydrogen “hype” as a solution to global warming, saying the company does not see hydrogen as a serious alternative to fossil fuels as an export commodity.
> Speaking at Rio’s London investor day on Wednesday, Rio chief scientist Nigel Steward said the company did not believe hydrogen could be used as an “energy carrier” in the near future, given its production costs and problems with shipping it around the globe.
> 
> “Hydrogen is much hyped, particularly as an energy carrier. We don’t see hydrogen as being used as an energy carrier,” he said.
> Mr Steward’s comments fly in the face of the ambitions of Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, which plans to spend billions in the hope of turning green hydrogen into a major seaborne commodity.
> 
> But the Rio chief scientist warned investors that recent research suggested that direct shipping of hydrogen at scale could even exacerbate global warming.
> 
> “If we want to use hydrogen as an energy carrier, and we‘re going to transport it around the world as liquid hydrogen, that’s problematic because 1 per cent of the hydrogen per day is lost to the atmosphere,” he said.
> 
> “Recent studies have shown that hydrogen actually has a global warming potential five to 16 times greater than carbon dioxide. So what this means is it is better to burn natural gas than it is to transport hydrogen around the world and then consume that later.”
> 
> Fortescue and other hydrogen hopefuls have said they plan to tackle the issue of energy loss in transporting liquid hydrogen by instead producing ammonia as a means to transport the commodity. But that would require additional chemical processes that would use even more energy, making its use less efficient.
> 
> Mr Steward said Rio believed hydrogen could have a major role to play in global energy transition, but said the mining giant believed it was best consumed where it was produced.
> 
> “We see hydrogen being used for its unique chemical properties. As a reducing agent for production of green steel, as a reducing agent for ilmenite in the smelting process to make iron and titanium, and also as a source of energy for calcining alumina in our refineries,” he said.



I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector

mullokintyre said:


> Rio has started the war on hydrogen.
> 
> I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
> Mick



Is this the same Rio Tinto that back in 2005 told the Media that Fortescue’s Iron Ore deposits were low grade waste and nothing but a “bag of rusty nails” and that anyone who invested in them would lose their money 🤭.

They failed to see how profitable mining Iron Ore using surface miners could be, and mining was literally their thing. So I don’t have full confidence that they can make sound assessments on energy investments.

Rio left a lot of money on the table when they left all the lower grade iron ore tenements to FMG, maybe they are doing it again, only time with tell.


----------



## Craton

mullokintyre said:


> Rio has started the war on hydrogen.
> 
> I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
> Mick



Google Fu: GWP = Global Warming Potential



> “We estimate the hydrogen GWP(100) [ie, over a 100-year period] to be 11 ± 5; a value more than 100% larger than previously published calculations.”
> In other words, the study says the GWP figure is somewhere between six and 16, with 11 being the average — whereas the GWP of CO2 is one. A previous study from 2001, which has been frequently cited ever since, put the GWP of hydrogen at 5.8.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

mullokintyre said:


> Rio has started the war on hydrogen.
> 
> I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
> Mick



I must admit that any engineers with whom I have spoken have said the same as Nigel Steward, RIO's chief scientist, about Hydrogen as an alternate fuel.

It is labile, difficult to produce without high energy or gaseous input, difficult to transport and overall "problematic" as opposed to wind, solar or battery power. 

I sold FMG recently and will buy again when the price plummets and sell again when it goes up. 

I have held RIO for eons, and will hold until it eventually transfers in to my deceased estate.  

Good luck to Twiggy if he pulls a rabbit out of the hat but Steward is just stating the evidence based view of Hydrogen as a fuel minus the hype. 

And I agree @Value Collector all the iron ore companies bollock each other to get an edge, but Steward's opinion is widely held. 

And no, I don't have references but will ask the Hydrogen, Oxygen and Water Committee at the hotel to look in to it. 

gg


----------



## sptrawler

I agree that FMG's foray into hydrogen isn't without risk, but as with any new industry it is those that move early who gain the advantage if there is any rapid take up and upscaling on the World stage.
As I posted in another thread, the legacy car makers Vs Tesla as an example.
Wind and solar are very intermittent, even in countries like Australia which are endowed with both, some countries due to geography have very little access to solar and their population densities require a lot of energy, so options are limited e.g Japan. 

Those who are late to the party can find themselves wallowing around trying to find traction, from memory Rio didn't do too well with their investment in aluminium, something like a  AU$20bn loss if my memory serves me correctly.
So Rio probably is just passing on a word of caution, which may be very well founded.









						Rio's US$14bn hit foreshadows other mining writedowns - The Namibian
					

LONDON/SYDNEY - Mining firms including BHP Billiton and Anglo American are likely to follow Rio Tinto's lead in writing down underperforming assets by as much as US$10 billion, as low prices and




					www.namibian.com.na
				




As for the technical aspects of using hydrogen as fuel, it isn't a new concept and has been used on some very technically challenging projects.

Since its inception in *1958*, NASA has been harnessing the unique properties of hydrogen to conduct missions. NASA's hydrogen and fuel cell technologies are used for many purposes. NASA has relied upon hydrogen gas as rocket fuel to deliver crew and cargo to space.

*Apollo 11, the first to land on the moon, housed three hydrogen fuel cells*. Apollo 11's hydrogen fuel cell, capable of producing up to 2,300W per unit, generated electricity to operate countless devices in spacecraft, and the power generation provided most of the water for astronauts' needs

*A major component of the STS-1 Space Shuttle launch vehicle was the disposable external tank containing liquid hydrogen fuel and liquid oxygen oxidiser*. This tank acted as the “backbone” of the space shuttle and supplied the fuel and oxidiser to the orbiter's three main engines during lift-off and ascent


----------



## Sean K

This could go in a few threads. Might as well be here. Sounds interesting.


----------



## Sean K

Sorry if you can't get the link through the paywall.

There seems to be quite a few headings like this popping up.

(not sure if there's some agendas being driven)





Rio Tinto’s chief scientist has fired a shot across the bows of companies and governments banking on green hydrogen “hype” as a solution to global warming, saying the company does not see hydrogen as a serious alternative to fossil fuels as an export commodity.

Speaking at Rio’s London investor day on Wednesday, Rio chief scientist Nigel Steward said the company did not believe hydrogen could be used as an “energy carrier” in the near future, given its production costs and problems with shipping it around the globe.

“Hydrogen is much hyped, particularly as an energy carrier. We don’t see hydrogen as being used as an energy carrier,” he said.

Mr Steward’s comments fly in the face of the ambitions of Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, which plans to spend billions in the hope of turning green hydrogen into a major seaborne commodity.

But the Rio chief scientist warned investors that recent research suggested that direct shipping of hydrogen at scale could even exacerbate global warming.

“If we want to use hydrogen as an energy carrier, and we‘re going to transport it around the world as liquid hydrogen, that’s problematic because 1 per cent of the hydrogen per day is lost to the atmosphere,” he said.


----------



## sptrawler

Toyota is still working on a hydrogen fueled ICE vehicle. As opposed to the normal Hydrogen/ fuel cell variant.









						Toyota Corolla Cross prototype gains hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine
					

A hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine has been fitted to a Toyota Corolla Cross SUV.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
A* Toyota Corolla Cross* prototype has been unveiled with a turbocharged hydrogen internal-combustion engine developed from a hot hatch.
The cars run just like normal and can be filled in a similar way to a petrol or diesel vehicle, but the only tailpipe emission is water vapour.

The Corolla Cross is the latest to be tested with the technology, following the development of a GR Corolla hatchback racing car in early 2021 which is powered by a hydrogen-powered 1.6-litre turbocharged three-cylinder engine – the petrol version of which is found in the GR Yaris and GR Corolla.
Toyota President Akio Toyoda drove the hydrogen-fuelled GR Corolla at all Super Taikyu endurance races in Japan this year, competing under his pseudonym 'Morizo'.
Through its development of the racing car, the company says it was able to increase power from the hydrogen engine by 24 per cent and torque by 33 per cent over the course of the season, while driving range has seen a 30 per cent improvement.

Mr Toyoda also spent time behind the wheel of a hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris rally car at the Belgium round of the World Rally Championship in August, sharing the driving duties with four-time rally champion Juha Kankkunen.

Toyota's development of the technology through its involvement in motorsports has also resulted in refuelling times reducing from roughly five minutes to just 90 seconds.
Toyota is also working with long-time Japanese engineering partner Yamaha to develop a 5.0-litre V8 engine fuelled with hydrogen, with unsubstantiated media reports from February suggesting the engine could eventually be fitted to a LandCruiser 300 Series.


----------



## Sean K

sptrawler said:


> Toyota is still working on a hydrogen fueled ICE vehicle. As opposed to the normal Hydrogen/ fuel cell variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toyota Corolla Cross prototype gains hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine
> 
> 
> A hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine has been fitted to a Toyota Corolla Cross SUV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drive.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the article:
> A* Toyota Corolla Cross* prototype has been unveiled with a turbocharged hydrogen internal-combustion engine developed from a hot hatch.
> The cars run just like normal and can be filled in a similar way to a petrol or diesel vehicle, but the only tailpipe emission is water vapour.
> 
> The Corolla Cross is the latest to be tested with the technology, following the development of a GR Corolla hatchback racing car in early 2021 which is powered by a hydrogen-powered 1.6-litre turbocharged three-cylinder engine – the petrol version of which is found in the GR Yaris and GR Corolla.
> Toyota President Akio Toyoda drove the hydrogen-fuelled GR Corolla at all Super Taikyu endurance races in Japan this year, competing under his pseudonym 'Morizo'.
> Through its development of the racing car, the company says it was able to increase power from the hydrogen engine by 24 per cent and torque by 33 per cent over the course of the season, while driving range has seen a 30 per cent improvement.
> 
> Mr Toyoda also spent time behind the wheel of a hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris rally car at the Belgium round of the World Rally Championship in August, sharing the driving duties with four-time rally champion Juha Kankkunen.
> 
> Toyota's development of the technology through its involvement in motorsports has also resulted in refuelling times reducing from roughly five minutes to just 90 seconds.
> Toyota is also working with long-time Japanese engineering partner Yamaha to develop a 5.0-litre V8 engine fuelled with hydrogen, with unsubstantiated media reports from February suggesting the engine could eventually be fitted to a LandCruiser 300 Series.




So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?


----------



## sptrawler

Sean K said:


> So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?



As with everything, the cost of production and the difficulty of transporting, but they are improving on both fronts.
It is like everything, economies of scale, once the demand is there the technology to facilitate it is developed.
A bit like batteries, first portable tools had NiMH as did the early Toyota Prius, they had memory issues and poor energy density.
Then came the Li ion batteries and the E.V's became a feasible product, the same will happen with hydrogen, production costs will fall and better transport mediums will be developed.
Hydrogen is still a clean fuel with a high energy density, can be stored for long periods and transported over long distances  as ammonia.


----------



## JohnDe

sptrawler said:


> As with everything, the cost of production and the difficulty of transporting, but they are improving on both fronts.
> It is like everything, economies of scale, once the demand is there the technology to facilitate it is developed.
> A bit like batteries, first portable tools had NiMH as did the early Toyota Prius, they had memory issues and poor energy density.
> Then came the Li ion batteries and the E.V's became a feasible product, the same will happen with hydrogen, production costs will fall and better transport mediums will be developed.
> Hydrogen is still a clean fuel with a high energy density, can be stored for long periods and transported over long distances  as ammonia.




Electric Vehicles and Hydrogen Vehicles for private transport, reminds me of the Beta and VHS history.


----------



## sptrawler

Very true John, I think h2 will be a niche market, when it comes to passenger vehicles.








						Fortescue opens WA’s first green hydrogen refuelling station for fleet of Toyota Mirais
					

Fortescue Future Industries opens Western Australia’s first green hydrogen refuelling station to power its fleet of 12 Toyota Mirai fuel cell cars.




					reneweconomy.com.au


----------



## sptrawler

From the article above:
The refuelling station in Perth will use a 200kW hydrogen electrolyser, which can make 65kg of green hydrogen a day. The Mirai uses nearly 1kg of hydrogen for every 100kms, so will need up to 6kg to refuel.

So if that is accurate and isn't a biased presentation, which the "so it will need upto 6kg to refuel " seemed superfluous", it need what it needs.

But just using their figures 200kW x 24 hours, can make 65kg of H2 and 1kg can take the car 100km.

BACK of the napkin:

Therefore 200kW x 24hrs = 4,800 kW/65kg of hydrogen =73kW per1 kg of hydrogen, which can take the car 100km.

A BEV uses about 16-20kW/100km, therefore the BEV uses approx 70% less electrical energy input to cover the same distance, if the electrical energy is sourced from the same place.

However that isn't the whole story, for the BEV to have the same 600km range the the H2 car has, it will need a 500kg battery, whereas the H2 car will need say a 20kg kevlar tank and 6kg of H2.

So the BEV has to carry a 20 times weight penalty, to gain a 70% reduction in electrical energy required to cover the distance.

Therefore the deciding factor regarding heavy haulage will be, the cost of the energy Vs increased unladen weight of the vehicle, which will affect how much freight it can transport.

If the cost of the energy isn't included, the reduction in freight carrying capacity and distance to be carried, could well be the deciding factor.🤔

With a car it's a no brainer, the 500kg weight penalty is far outweighed by the reduced cost to charge the 100km of energy, when the weight difference starts to get into the several tons, the lines start to blur.

It will be interesting to see how both energies evolve over the next 10 years, the cost of H2 production needs to fall and the energy density of batteries needs to increase, or a hybrid of both needs to develop where both advantages are utilised.

For example it may be that long haul trucking companies have both prime movers, one set of battery operated that move the trailers from distribution point e.g Adelaide and take them to Ceduna, then other H2 prime movers that pick up the trailer at Ceduna and run them through to Coolgardie.

Then all you need is a H2 refueling station at Ceduna and one at Coolgardie, you get the economy of the battery prime mover for local distribution and only require the weight and distance advantage of the H2 on extremely long runs with virtually no stops.
Interesting times.


----------



## Value Collector

Sean K said:


> So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?




This engineer seems to have identified a number of huge flaws with using hydrogen for combustion engines (rather than fuel cells)

Basically there are two ways to use hydrogen to power a vehicle.

1. Use a fuel cell which converts the hydrogen to electricity, so you basically have an electric vehicle that uses hydrogen instead of a batttery, this is the most efficient option.

2, burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, which loses a lot of energy to heat and mechanical movement, which is super inefficient like todays petrol engines.


----------



## Value Collector

sptrawler said:


> From the article above:
> The refuelling station in Perth will use a 200kW hydrogen electrolyser, which can make 65kg of green hydrogen a day. The Mirai uses nearly 1kg of hydrogen for every 100kms, so will need up to 6kg to refuel.
> 
> So if that is accurate and isn't a biased presentation, which the "so it will need upto 6kg to refuel " seemed superfluous", it need what it needs.
> 
> But just using their figures 200kW x 24 hours, can make 65kg of H2 and 1kg can take the car 100km.
> 
> BACK of the napkin:
> 
> Therefore 200kW x 24hrs = 4,800 kW/65kg of hydrogen =73kW per1 kg of hydrogen, which can take the car 100km.
> 
> A BEV uses about 16-20kW/100km, therefore the BEV uses approx 70% less electrical energy input to cover the same distance, if the electrical energy is sourced from the same place.
> 
> However that isn't the whole story, for the BEV to have the same 600km range the the H2 car has, it will need a 500kg battery, whereas the H2 car will need say a 20kg kevlar tank and 6kg of H2.
> 
> So the BEV has to carry a 20 times weight penalty, to gain a 70% reduction in electrical energy required to cover the distance.
> 
> Therefore the deciding factor regarding heavy haulage will be, the cost of the energy Vs increased unladen weight of the vehicle, which will affect how much freight it can transport.
> 
> If the cost of the energy isn't included, the reduction in freight carrying capacity and distance to be carried, could well be the deciding factor.🤔
> 
> With a car it's a no brainer, the 500kg weight penalty is far outweighed by the reduced cost to charge the 100km of energy, when the weight difference starts to get into the several tons, the lines start to blur.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how both energies evolve over the next 10 years, the cost of H2 production needs to fall and the energy density of batteries needs to increase, or a hybrid of both needs to develop where both advantages are utilised.
> 
> For example it may be that long haul trucking companies have both prime movers, one set of battery operated that move the trailers from distribution point e.g Adelaide and take them to Ceduna, then other H2 prime movers that pick up the trailer at Ceduna and run them through to Coolgardie.
> 
> Then all you need is a H2 refueling station at Ceduna and one at Coolgardie, you get the economy of the battery prime mover for local distribution and only require the weight and distance advantage of the H2 on extremely long runs with virtually no stops.
> Interesting times.



If you are talking weight of hydrogen vs battery you also have to include the weight of the fuel cell, which in the Toyota is about 60 kg + over 80 kg for the hydrogen tank, then there is a small amount of fuel weight.

So it is lighter than a battery, but not 20 times lighter.

The other thing you don’t hear much about is what happens to all the water generated in cold climates? Will hydrogen vehicles cause icy roads?


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## sptrawler

Value Collector said:


> If you are talking weight of hydrogen vs battery you also have to include the weight of the fuel cell, which in the Toyota is about 60 kg + over 80 kg for the hydrogen tank, then there is a small amount of fuel weight.
> 
> So it is lighter than a battery, but not 20 times lighter.
> 
> The other thing you don’t hear much about is what happens to all the water generated in cold climates? Will hydrogen vehicles cause icy roads?



I did say that in passenger vehicles it is a no brainer, the BEV wins hands down and the reason I bought one, I was trying to keep the explanation pretty basic without being too OCD.
The only time weight becomes an issue, is when the weight difference starts to reduce the amount of freight that can be carried and if there is an increase in transit times due to refueling that causes a logistical or financial problem.
I don't think the water on the road will be a major problem between Ceduna and Coolgardie, or Port Augusta and Three Ways.
It will all come down to economics and what works.
It may end up that long haul freight ends up on trains and who knows how they will be powered, one has to stay open minded about new technological advancements.
Let's be honest in 2018 the Libs wanted diesel subs to be seen to be woke, hip, cool, four years later that was so not cool, now even Labor want nuclear subs.
Things change, those who get too fixated, get left behind.








						Australian solar park could generate hydrogen for less than $2/kg
					

A new study shows that hydrogen could be produced for as little as AUD 2.85 ($1.98) per kilogram, supporting Frontier Energy's plans to make green hydrogen from a 500 MW solar project it is developing in Western Australia.




					www.pv-magazine.com


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## Value Collector

sptrawler said:


> I did say that in passenger vehicles it is a no brainer, the BEV wins hands down and the reason I bought one, I was trying to keep the explanation pretty basic without being too OCD.
> The only time weight becomes an issue, is when the weight difference starts to reduce the amount of freight that can be carried and if there is an increase in transit times due to refueling that causes a logistical or financial problem.
> I don't think the water on the road will be a major problem between Ceduna and Coolgardie, or Port Augusta and Three Ways.
> It will all come down to economics and what works.
> It may end up that long haul freight ends up on trains and who knows how they will be powered, one has to stay open minded about new technological advancements.
> Let's be honest in 2018 the Libs wanted diesel subs to be seen to be woke, hip, cool, four years later that was so not cool, now even Labor want nuclear subs.
> Things change, those who get too fixated, get left behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australian solar park could generate hydrogen for less than $2/kg
> 
> 
> A new study shows that hydrogen could be produced for as little as AUD 2.85 ($1.98) per kilogram, supporting Frontier Energy's plans to make green hydrogen from a 500 MW solar project it is developing in Western Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pv-magazine.com



In the USA they have increased the maximum weight for electric trucks by 2000 pounds, to compensate for the additional weight of the battery. When you also minus the weight of the diesel engine which is huge compared to the electric engine which can be picked up by a person the weight difference is narrowed.

When it comes to recharging times, the legal rest periods for truck drivers providers a window larger than what is required for charging.

See the chart below, it shows that the maximum drive times force truck drivers to rest for 30mins before a truck would empty its battery, and the 30 min fast charge will charge easily during that time.

Truck drivers are also forced to stay idle for 7 hours straight each day, which would allow a slow charge if needed.


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## sptrawler

Good points @Value Collector .  
It would actually enforce rest breaks, which isn't a bad thing. It would put the onus on the trucking companies to better schedule, rather than putting the onus on drivers, to meet ridiculous schedules.


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## Dona Ferentes

sptrawler said:


> Good points @Value Collector .
> It would actually enforce rest breaks, which isn't a bad thing. It would put the onus on the trucking companies to better schedule, rather than putting the onus on drivers, to meet ridiculous schedules.



I've noticed on the highways, some of the big B-double rigs have drivers in tandem. They generally appear to be of the subcontinental persuasion.


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## sptrawler

Dona Ferentes said:


> I've noticed on the highways, some of the big B-double rigs have drivers in tandem. They generally appear to be of the subcontinental persuasion.



Yes a lot of the long haul trucks in W.A are triples or quads, this is where I personally think the energy density of batteries becomes an issue, but who knows what will be the end result. It is just fun to speculate, I'm sure people like Lindsay Fox are number crunching.
Australia is a big country, with lots of long empty miles to cover, the further that you can go without stopping, the lower the transport cost and the better the ROE of the prime mover.

The thing is, at the moment very often smaller vehicle transport the goods to a collection point, where the goods are then loaded into the trailers and assembled for collection by various sized prime movers, depending on weights, routes and distances.
So the long haul prime movers, actually may be completely different than the local transport prime movers, IMO that would make sense, battery operated trucks delivering produce to collection/distribution locations, where there may also be refueling facilities for both battery and H2.
The way we do things may have to change completely in a lot of processes, no one said going fossil fuel free, was going to be easy or one size fits all. 
It is interesting times.


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## Value Collector

Dona Ferentes said:


> I've noticed on the highways, some of the big B-double rigs have drivers in tandem. They generally appear to be of the subcontinental persuasion.



Even so, they still need to pee, so 30mins charging every 8 hours wouldn’t be a burden.

I am driving from Sydney to Brisbane today, passing loads of trucks that are just sitting parked at rest stops, they could be charging during that rest.


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## Dona Ferentes

Value Collector said:


> am driving from Sydney to Brisbane today, passing loads of trucks that are just sitting parked at rest stops, they could be charging during that rest.



Likely taking the mandated breaks and doing their logbooks. So much monitoring (point -to-point, plus speed cameras) there's little opportunity to fudge the reports.

And likely to get tougher. (Thanks google)








						Big Brother is watching you: 'Machine learning' cameras to be installed in NSW
					

Images of heavy vehicles are taken by the cameras, which then classify the type of vehicle in transit and the type of cargo being transported.




					bigrigs.com.au


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## Value Collector

sptrawler said:


> Yes a lot of the long haul trucks in W.A are triples or quads, this is where I personally think the energy density of batteries becomes an issue, but who knows what will be the end result. It is just fun to speculate, I'm sure people like Lindsay Fox are number crunching.
> Australia is a big country, with lots of long empty miles to cover, the further that you can go without stopping, the lower the transport cost and the better the ROE of the prime mover.
> 
> The thing is, at the moment very often smaller vehicle transport the goods to a collection point, where the goods are then loaded into the trailers and assembled for collection by various sized prime movers, depending on weights, routes and distances.
> So the long haul prime movers, actually may be completely different than the local transport prime movers, IMO that would make sense, battery operated trucks delivering produce to collection/distribution locations, where there may also be refueling facilities for both battery and H2.
> The way we do things may have to change completely in a lot of processes, no one said going fossil fuel free, was going to be easy or one size fits all.
> It is interesting times.
> 
> 
> View attachment 150245
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 150246



Teslas plan is to eventually have autonomous trucks following a lead vehicle in convoy.


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## Dona Ferentes

Som


Value Collector said:


> Tesla's plan is to eventually have autonomous trucks following a lead vehicle in convoy.



Sometimes known as trains on railway lines!


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## sptrawler

Value Collector said:


> Teslas plan is to eventually have autonomous trucks following a lead vehicle in convoy.



That makes a lot of sense, the only problem Tesla has, the loonies are trying to cancel Elon. 🤣

The first visionary we have had in a long time and he isn't singing from the hymn sheet, so we will have to wait and see where that leads.


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## Value Collector

Dona Ferentes said:


> Som
> 
> Sometimes known as trains on railway lines!



Yep, except they can go to places the rails don’t, from places the rails aren’t.


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## orr

a great bit of fun....


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