# COVID-19: How Not To Kill an Economy



## rederob (4 April 2020)

First, the health message to COVID-19 should have been encapsulated in really simple rules;

Become fanatical about hand cleanliness
*Do not* touch your face with your hands if they have not been sanitisied/washed
Wearing a mask when out in public helps

Social distancing reduces risk.
Combined with effective testing regimes, the above would allow an economy to operate without requiring blanket restrictions through harsh lockdown measures.  We know from the experiences of South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore (and to a lesser extent Japan) that economies do not need to be ruined in order to *control *COVID-19.

We haven't we tried to emulate their relative success stories, and even today we cannot.
On the personal health measures front, try buying hand sanitiser or face masks (we were lucky to have some left from our last overseas trip) - even rarer than toilet paper!  So points 1 & 2 are tricky, leaving us with only point 3: hardly acceptable 3 months after our government first became aware of this virus.

We are pouring billions of dollars in to propping up businesses but a pittance into medical research and necessary health products, including absolute basics such as sanitiser and face masks.

We should be concentrating our efforts in providing the necessities for safe public outings instead of implementing Maginot Line style border lockdowns which somehow merely assume transport operators and tradies are automatically safe to cross - mind-numbingly illogical.

We should be employing teams of people sanitising public places, transport and stores/offices so that we can continue going about most business in a safe manner, especially when practising rules 1, 2, and 3. (The clear exception are mass gatherings where following these rules are impractical.)

We should have implemented best pratice in testing so everyone concerned about their health status could visit an easy accessible site (not a hospital) and get their results back in a few hours at most. 

Instead we are in a defeatist mentality where harsh measures are seen as prevailing for many months to come.


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## matty77 (4 April 2020)

No proof that wearing a mask out in public helps, if you HAVE IT then it helps stop the spread but if you don't all you are doing is wearing a wet mask that is collecting everything around it and then when you take it off you are infecting your hands. Take a look at anyone that has been wearing a mask for longer then 5 minutes and you will see the nice wet patch on the front of it. Unless you are changing you mask every 20 minutes or so its pointless, plus every time you change it you are putting yourself at risk from infection from whats collected on the mask.

If people follow social distancing correctly there would be no need to wear masks. Stay minimum of 1.5m away, do not leave your house if you show any symptoms what so ever. I am out and about for work and I see people congregating constantly, I see old people well over there 70s out and about buying stuff they dont need. People need to stay home, that is the best thing we can do to stop this.

Testing we are far ahead of any country, SA is far ahead of any state in Australia also. There is no point just testing everyone if they are not showing symptoms, its a waste of time and resources. There is no shortage of test kits in Australia at the moment.

Sanitising everything doesnt mean we can go about our daily business, what if the first person who walks through the freshly sanitised place is a carrier of Covid-19? We cant sanitise everything constantly so this is just not a realistic thing to do, yes I agree we need to better sanitise obviously high touch points (like supermarket trolleys, hand rails etc) but having teams of people running around and sanitising everyone is just again not economical. If people practise social distancing and stay at home if sick its not necessary. People shouldnt be participating in public outings they should be at home right now.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post, that we are not doing enough.


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## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

So your logic is that it is better for the gems to be on your face than on the mask?
In case you do not temove your mask properly?
Please, the ONLY reason the general public is not told to use mask is because we do not have enough for people who critically need them 
Now the us has change its stance, please wear something anything
You will NOT be sick wearing a mask, at worst useless


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## matty77 (4 April 2020)

I guess though against my own argument, the issue is you can have it and not know you have it for up to 14 days or maybe longer.. so therefore wearing a mask before you have symptoms would help stop the spread. There seems to be a lot of conflicting evidence either way on what to do... thinking about it a bit more and just been reading up on it I could be mistaken, conceding here I am maybe wrong.

For me, I wont be wearing a mask at this stage, I will just be trying my best to avoid people.

Also, I have noticed people wearing face masks and gloves when driving around in cars... I ask why?


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## rederob (4 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> No proof that wearing a mask out in public helps, if you HAVE IT then it helps stop the spread but if you don't all you are doing is wearing a wet mask that is collecting everything around it and then when you take it off you are infecting your hands. Take a look at anyone that has been wearing a mask for longer then 5 minutes and you will see the nice wet patch on the front of it. Unless you are changing you mask every 20 minutes or so its pointless, plus every time you change it you are putting yourself at risk from infection from whats collected on the mask.
> 
> If people follow social distancing correctly there would be no need to wear masks. Stay minimum of 1.5m away, do not leave your house if you show any symptoms what so ever. I am out and about for work and I see people congregating constantly, I see old people well over there 70s out and about buying stuff they dont need. People need to stay home, that is the best thing we can do to stop this.
> 
> ...



There are other threads that address wearing a mask, and if you watched the video link the rationale would have been clearer - it's for us to prevent touching our faces more than anything.  As @qldfrog has many times elsewhere suggested, anything is better than nothing, but we instead have nothing!

With respect to testing, I suggest you look at what other countries have put in place as we are not an example of best practice.  If we are so good, why aren't we testing people who are allowed to cross our borders?  Why did over 600 passengers from one ship lead to such a calamity Australia-wide?  You know people have been turned away from hospitals, only to return days later and then be tested positive!

My point on testing is that it should be available to those who feel they need it due to immediate health concerns or if the nature of their jobs involve significant public contact.
Wuhan is going out of lockdown next week because they use a colour-coded app that informs everyone about their COVID-19 status.  Exactly where are we on that front?

The issue about broadscale public sanitising effort relates to a perception of public confidence in going out in public.  If we are hand sanitising and wearing masks then wherever we go will remain virus free.  If where we went was not clean to begin, then we just become unwary carriers.

We need to be creating an external environment that we feel safe in regardless of our personal efforts.  But as I said, most people in Australia cannot satisfy the first 2 rules when they leave home (for whatever reason) because we cannot accommodate their needs.

We need to stop poking the bear.
[edit - my post crossed your reply, so hopefully I added something else that was useful]


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## SirRumpole (4 April 2020)

rederob said:


> We should be employing teams of people sanitising public places, transport and stores/offices so that we can continue going about most business in a safe manner, especially when practising rules 1, 2, and 3. (The clear exception are mass gatherings where following these rules are impractical.)




I doubt if it's "practically possible" to disinfect all offices and public areas plus public transport. We don't have enough ppe for doctors and health care workers, let alone the disinfectors.




rederob said:


> We should have implemented best pratice in testing so everyone concerned about their health status could visit an easy accessible site (not a hospital) and get their results back in a few hours at most.




Yes, we should be doing more here. I wonder if we could use FLIR technology (forward looking infrared) in offices and other public buildings to detect people who are hotter than normal and give them attention.

Couriers could drop off and pick up test kits from private homes with the results emailed out. This would enable people to stay in isolation while being tested and protect hospital staff.


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## rederob (4 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if it's "practically possible" to disinfect all offices and public areas plus public transport.



My point is that we are not doing it at all, that I am aware.  Watch what is possible!


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## kahuna1 (4 April 2020)

Sex is now via asexual reproduction.

CV19 like herpes is a gift that keep on giving. 

Singapore and even South Korea who tested and were prepared having 5 other virus events post 2000 ... Singapore is NOW in total lock-down.

Wave after wave ... even with social distancing will occur until vaccine in 12 plus months.


Australian response is up there with the best. Mistakes yes, but USA response for 329 million as of March 2nd had done 2000 tests. We had done 100 times adjusted MORE .... 

Canada right next door similar numbers.

Claims of warnings ... first was WHO on 29th Dec then 8th Jan then emergency declared with the full virus and spread rate revealed 30th Jan .... emergency level. Then Pandemic level.

All nations got the same alerts at the same time. Ours acted sufficiently and still does so .... in fact a leader in testing which even a casual look would reveal.

To have it revealed ... on the 30th Jan that CV19 spread at a high rate was one thing, that people not showing symptoms infectious .... unlike SARS or MERS which only became infectious after obvious signs makes control ... of CV19 ... virtually impossible and even if we stomp the hell out of this wave, some with little or no symptoms still infectious ... will be out there. Basically a cloud of infection surrounds them and any and all surfaces they touch remain potentially contagious and good luck stopping 5 year olds touching stuff.

Basically ... suck it up ... till a vaccine arrives because that's reality for now. Social distancing reduces spread risk .... but its not eliminated and well .... if you pretend every surface you dont know is likely covered in virus potentially for 72 hours your thinking close to reality. 

Next C grade movie I get trapped in is one with Bo Derick in her youth or Kim Bassinger.


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## Humid (4 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Sex is now via asexual reproduction.
> 
> CV19 like herpes is a gift that keep on giving.
> 
> ...




https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1_o3rn-lS7MYKTS3TngU9U


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## Humid (4 April 2020)

I recommend watching the above
Even if you've seen it


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## Smurf1976 (4 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if it's "practically possible" to disinfect all offices and public areas plus public transport. We don't have enough ppe for doctors and health care workers, let alone the disinfectors.



I suspect you're right but in the case of public transport, there are at least some buses designed so they can literally be hosed out.

Park the bus on a level surface, kneel the bus which drops the front left hand corner, hose it out and the water simply runs out the door. The seat fabric is 100% synthetic and does not absorb water, everything else is waterproof apart from the driver's controls etc. Put an industrial sized fan heater inside to dry it or if the weather's suitable then just leave it parked at the depot with the door open.

I've no idea if that's practical with all public transport buses but if it is well then simply spraying an abundance of suitable disinfectant everywhere or perhaps using the fog / mist approach that has been used outside overseas would be pretty quick and easy. Fill the bus up with mist and let it naturally dissipate.


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## matty77 (4 April 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5

Dont wear masks? 



> *Deputy chief health officer Paul Kelly stresses mask use not recommended*


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## macca (4 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5
> 
> Dont wear masks?




Funny isn't it, these people are using the WHO for guidance, many would suggest they actually made it worse by not acting on information provided by Taiwan

Most Asian countries wear masks a lot since all these viruses started appearing in China.

WHO says it spreads through droplets in the air But Don't wear a mask to stop this, sounds very Suss to me.

"We know how to stop it spreading but we recommend that you don't do that" no wonder conspiracy theories abound on this

Medical protection masks for close work need to be reserved for those who need them, any simple cloth mask will stop the cough explosion of air or even a big exhalation will throw air a fair way.

Of course, a first quality, super burp will chuck it metres, we can stop that happening so easily
with masks


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## hja (4 April 2020)

The mask wearer actually does an excellent job of protecting everyone around him/her from his own droplets when he speaks or expires a breath. So much so that in Austria, it's compulsory to wear a disposable mask upon entering a shop or supermarket there. They're provided to each customer.


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## SirRumpole (4 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5
> 
> Dont wear masks?




Surely they must do something to stop particles being exhaled a distance. Should we be wearing safety glasses too, if the virus can get in through the eyes ?


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## macca (4 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Surely they must do something to stop particles being exhaled a distance. Should we be wearing safety glasses too, if the virus can get in through the eyes ?




Good point, I noticed in China that those doing the testing had face shields on, funny no mention of that from WHO


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## rederob (4 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5
> 
> Dont wear masks?



Trump official's just issued guidelines recommending the wearing of face masks. 
WHO wooda thunk!

Trump is now using his Defense Production Act to order 3M to produce face masks, having  previously used it to compel General Motors to produce ventilators.
Hail the new Messiah!

Where are our respective levels of governments in terms of increasing employment numbers by investing in medical research, health equipment production, and sanitary measures (ie broad scale disinfection of public facilities including transport?  That's aside from taking a leaf out of WA's copy book and setting aside a complete medical facility for dealing with COVID-19.  One should have been built afresh in Sydney and Melbourne - along the lines of temporary field hospitals - to remove any chance of cross infection with "general admissions."  Wuhan had separate hospitals for those testing "positive" versus those needing intensive care.  (Home isolation was not an option if you tested positive!)

Rather than focus on wage subsidies, why aren't we instead deploying monies on health initiatives that prepare us to emerge quicker and more resilient from this virus.


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## SirRumpole (4 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Rather than focus on wage subsidies, why aren't we instead deploying monies on health initiatives that prepare us to emerge quicker and more resilient from this virus.




I think we need to do both. If people can't earn money to live then great social upheaval could result.

Governments have to get people onside and cooperating, if they just ignore the social isolation to earn a living, then that would spell disaster for containing the spread.


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## Humid (4 April 2020)

The irony of the acronym
WHO.......


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## barney (4 April 2020)

rederob said:


> My point is that we are not doing it at all, that I am aware.  Watch what is possible!




Not to mention it would also provide jobs for a lot of people  … win win!


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## Dona Ferentes (4 April 2020)

barney said:


> … win win!



that was the rationale, the songbook of Globalisation. And, if not the sole factor, certainly a significant element of what got us into this mess.


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## barney (4 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> that was the rationale, the songbook of Globalisation. And, if not the sole factor, certainly a significant element of what got us into this mess.




More information please DF ...


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## Dona Ferentes (4 April 2020)

barney said:


> More information please DF ...



Was a thought bubble (sort of) ,,, but when China joined the World Trade Organisation and it was signed into law on October 10, 2000 by United States President Bill Clinton, I distinctly remember the triumphalism and the use of "WIN WIN" to basically silence the naysayers.

And here we are 20 years on, with a total trade imbalance. Some economic benefits have accrued, millions may have been 'lifted out of poverty' but problem not solved. Situation is precarious; maybe the next reset could swing the pendulum t'other way.


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## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Surely they must do something to stop particles being exhaled a distance. Should we be wearing safety glasses too, if the virus can get in through the eyes ?



yes
If you notice: in China indeed mask plus glasses
 sunglasses covering sides are sufficient


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## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Was a thought bubble (sort of) ,,, but when China joined the World Trade Organisation and it was signed into law on October 10, 2000 by United States President Bill Clinton, I distinctly remember the triumphalism and the use of "WIN WIN" to basically silence the naysayers.
> 
> And here we are 20 years on, with a total trade imbalance. Some economic benefits have accrued, millions may have been 'lifted out of poverty' but problem not solved. Situation is precarious; maybe the next reset could swing the pendulum t'other way.



While millions have been lifted from poverty in Asia,quite a few millions have been thrown into poverty in the west, and the middle class here has been annihilated.
It was never a _win win_ but a
_**** them_ initiative


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## Smurf1976 (5 April 2020)

rederob said:


> why aren't we instead deploying monies on health initiatives that prepare us to emerge quicker and more resilient from this virus.



I think there's still denial going on at all levels - government, population, business and so on.

Between you, me and everyone else here we could probably compile a list of the biggest disasters and incidents we've personally been in some way involved with or at least affected by. We'll come up with the usual fires, floods, transport accidents, Smurf will say something about power system incidents, someone else will say something about an industrial accident somewhere, someone else will question whether going broke or getting divorced counts. etc.

Bottom line is this problem with COVID-19 is far, far bigger than all of those put together. It's not 20 small towns razed to the ground but where we can ultimately rebuild. It's not people standing on the roof waiting for the helicopter to come and pick them out of the flood waters. It's not having the entire state in the dark and trying to restart. It's not a ship sinking or a train derailment.  

This virus is several orders of magnitude bigger than any of that and I think that as a society we're still in denial about the sheer scale of the problem.

Bunkering down whilst the storm passes or until the lights come back on is one thing, it's a nuisance but that's all really, it's nothing compared to this. Once that reality sets in, once people realise that this isn't just a few days or weeks, well then I think we'll see the approach shift to one of desperation and a willingness to try anything that has a chance of working no matter how convoluted and held together with string and duct tape it happens to be.


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## kahuna1 (5 April 2020)

CV19 is special.

MERS and SARS as some are aware was hard to spread, via one showed symptoms to be able to.
As such a perfectly normal person walked around and when ill, and only ill was infectious.

CV19 whilst WHO some may think dropped the ball, or China, reality is by 30 Dec 2019 weeks after first infection WHO despite being lobotomized by USA and cuts, issued its first warning then again 8th Jan and for the 5th time ever .... 30th Jan 2020 a full emergency.

Whilst having  opinions.... facts verses actions and science dictates.
Why WHO declared an emergency was contained in the 30th Jan release. CV19 was twice as infectious as SARS and MERS ... and spread when no sign of infection was evident via symptoms making it whilst less life threatening than its closest relations, 10 times more deadly via diabolical spread rates.

I would agree, we have NOT even started, we are in act1 science one in relation to the impacts and ending of this event.

Each nation chose to act. Australia acted accordingly and whilst not berserk like others like South Korea even our March 1 total tests was 100 times USA response. they had done 2,000  tests for 329 million people, Canada and other similar.

With a vaccine a long way off, longer than I thought at 9 months till meaningful deployment and likely 12 or more, we go into hibernation for a long while. Globally still  DENIAL is the common theme. Being locked up for 6 weeks will NOT stop outbreaks popping up again and again till a vaccine is out there. A Prophylactic or Antiviral agent that works if infected or the former protects from getting infected, is NOT going to occur sooner than a  vaccine.

MERS and SARS were a massive hit to Asia but quite different animals. In the end via testing people who developed symptoms and only then became contagious the two closest relations die out on their own.

SARS did get a vaccine. SARS1, and not one spoken about much because despite an awful mortality rate the vaccine was WORSE than the virus itself so to be blunt that's bloody hard when it already was deadly. Of course we are 2020 and not 2003, still without time and to see side effects and all of them via new vaccine or therapy, its clear any shortcuts will and likely will be a mistake.

The world is in two camps, economically and socially with developed nations. A displayed indifference for the welfare of the masses and those who are NOT. At this time. already strained relations are going bust. Stealing masks of one nation off the Tarmac or hijacking, paying 300% in cash for something already paid for is NOT going to help. Attacking China and we all have faults, their system and choice of goverment did as best one might expect being rational in sharing the new bug .... WHO releases show that and the timeline.

What we did and other nations did and cope is sadly displayed, with living horror in one case. Social norms of kissing on the cheek and CV19, early cases via large populations can even under normal rates see 1 person at them infecting 3 every 5 days  ... in 50 days that's 59,000 infections.

We love om a word where science is denied. In fact if it doesn't suit us, attacked. CV19 really does have no political party and really cares not at all about BS.

It lives happily inside us at 37C and lives well at much  greater temps. So expecting it to go away or be defeated is an absurdity. Shut up peasants BACK to work for $10 an hour !!

I am happy not to live in such a place. Of course most will deny till their face turns blue and not about to waste time of effort with them. Canada right next door to the USA, first infection 4 days after USA acted quite differently and society and tax much like our own. If one multiplies their population by say 10 you have the USA. USA magically claimed it knew, actions speak far louder as do now even crries to get back to work peasants.

This virus is a game changer globally. We will emerge, low debt to GDP adding 50% MORE will still leave us at HALF m0st nations totals and overall including tax we collect from rich and poor a total with super of around 38% tax. NZ our bestie similar .... EU nations same but mush higher Debt levels. They however took the effort to REDUCE post GFC, face ugly choices as did we, higher contributions for many latter retirement age and slashing payouts on some pensions.'

Eu same thing and our budget was to balance this year ... EU has been doing so for 8 years.. USA well ... a 5% Deficit 10 years post GFC ? and tax not slightly rising but tax cuts that went 92% to the top 10%.

Golly gee ,,,, they like all others .. will take a hit. Will the peasants go back to work ? Will the world endure a nation likely to be 30 trillion in debt over a much lower GDP size than now so likely 160% Debt to GDP and a mere 12% likely being collected in tax ?

Who will nations lend to ? An EU one average at 135% debt to GDP and 40% tax .... or one with $160- and $12 income but wanting to spend $20-

Trump and he is no different than Obama and Bush or Clinton just wall street investment bank types of a different color. They DEMAND you lend to them

I am sure the French region hardest hit will forget 20 million masks taken from the Tarmac as will Germany and Canada .... having expected supplies ... stopped.

In the GFc 3 banks came clean and declared they were in effect broke .... late 2007. Same assets identical bonds on every banks books and ... as such if one was marking them to market and the the rest ... were also broke. Market reported 5% plus GDP growth that week ... really ? Market did fall ... 15% only to recover as all is well was trumpeted to 3% off all time highs. On and on and ON it went. The problem was in plain sight at the start. Amusing to get a billion into AMBC the bond insurer when it had 10 billion in losses it had already ... it got an AAA rating just like Australia which had NO federal debt not a cent and AMBAC was broke 9 months latter.

Expect the same, in fact, WORSE. China relations were poor with USA and so too every other nation either bullied or stolen from by USA sponsored tax theft. Australia did better than most and got about 20% of the tax Google took via 472 million settlement. The USA tax cuts halving USA tax paid is the sole reason why USA stock rose above all others. NO other reason ... or other than state protected tax theft that saw USA threaten 100% tax on French wines if they god forbid got Google or Facebook to pay tax.

Oh the world is changing and post CV19 ... all with HIGHER debt to GDP over a decade as in the past by prudent management it will be reduced. NO longer will the gloves be feather filled when discussing state sponsored and protected global tax theft. France will, nor will Germany ... tolerate it. Being polite and tolerating USA laughing at the Trumpist who really is not different from Obama who also was just a Treasury controlled by Goldman Sachs, so too Clinton Bush and on and on.

I have disgust and extreme regret for the common USA people and what their leaders and imbecile has done to them. Sadly with not much functioning free media and basically FOx news on every channel, even glancing at an adjoining country Canada and their CV19 results will not enter their minds.

Market for now, USA will deny ... dispute and well ... I am sure funding another 25% of the GDP via a slush fund to support non global tax payers will go down like Dick Smith float in future years.

Governments and good ones, and nations have billionaires and rich. Some inherit and some make it by brilliance. What defines and differentiates EU and UK and NZ and virtually all others is that they get taxed at a HIGHER rate and not a lower one. Not to penalize brilliance or punishment ... they pay their fair share. Some of our own billionaires I like, some I despise as the self serving people they are. BUT ... they PAY tax contribute to society and NOT play god and spend $876 million USD with a sole goal and thats to STOP tax to the rich. Bloomberg didn't even get a Tshirt for that.

Things, often take generations or events to change.
We have one that, well ... is unique and relationships globally already frayed are now I suspect shredded. No amount of apology will change recent events and even more racist comments via chief troll.

I cry for the lack of any comprehension or caring whilst denying CV19, doing NOT a thing, 2,000 tests and Canada compared did 100 times that adjusted ... its too late ... TOO LATE ... to advert.
Now its a victory if 100,000 die ? I like and respect and love Yanks, most with about 5,000 on the nose and likely more, a tiny fraction now rule.

Other nations, the NEEDS of the many outweigh the needs or need of the one or few.

We are, in not in denial, its often when inside an abusive relationship the awful becomes normal. Its like a dream, did someone just assassinate a leader flying to another nation ? Or did a nation politely ask and other with a spy plane over its soil, rather than shooting it down, to leave ? Did the worlds richest man never pay a dividend, never pay tax anywhere ?

Times they are a changing. Of course, resistance as the Borg say, is FUTILE. of course with every billion  they possess they will sadly in the case of the USA expect and demand the rest of the world fund their debt, not ask even for pennies form their profits overseas and BOW ... and then fund their slush fund to bail out tax criminals.

Its going to be FUN to watch. TAKE THE PAIN NOW ... early and well ... a vaccine is not possible inside 12 months. As such, the impacts I gave are an AT best, and an at best impact in the stock market is not anywhere near current levels.

I note now the USA oil industry is to be bailed out via Tariffs and all oil at $60- a barrel because USA break even is that. Wonder who will bear the brunt and who will bear the benifits ?  We and EU and most others already have petrol with massive inbuilt tariffs and stuff. Then again we have a functioning healthcare system ... we have decent roads, good education and good support if you get sick via income or loose your job.

GET BACK TO WORK .... NOW ... PEASANT  ... I need my burgers .. the virus I defeated it at 15 cases and the rest is fake news.

See Donald when he announced 100,000  deaths likely,  he spent 15 minutes talking about his ratings.
What a caring fellow he is. Amusing 7 minutes about how we love his wife Mealaiananan .. whoops Ivanka. Oh boy ... they started with a C grade movie guy Regan and now a game show host and slum lord running the effort Ivankas pretend Husband JJJJAaaarod,

NOW  .... clean my boots ... BOY !! and that racists term is for anyone non Trump like of any background race and creed even white dumb folks called Kiwi's whoops ,,, Ozzies ...

Find a rock and HIDE in a financial sense. What is left standing in 12 months will not resemble o matter the governments efforts what is standing today. As yet to be reflected in stocks let alone eventual mayhem from overseas and peasants refusing to serve Trump his burger and his tantrum.

Upside ? well we just had the dead cat bounce !!

My worst case, outlook is NOW my best case result 14 days latter. Of course we are miles away from a best case low and worst case ... is well .... I dont want to think that far ahead. 

Doomsday preppers seem sane right now so ... well if that's true even for an instant, golly !!


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2020)

Sadly this seems to be following the usual state by state pattern when it comes to the law, Victoria just has to restrict things for the sake of it.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...on-with-her-mum-20200406-p54hhe.html#comments

How on earth can learning to drive not fit into the category of education that can't be done from home, a specifically permitted activity?

More to the point, given both people in the car live together the risk is ??? Before anyone says accidents - statistically learners are among the safest drivers on the road so that doesn't stack up either.

Sadly it's nothing new - Victoria has always been heavy handed with the law. In this case though, well it's one way to erode public support for the lockdown to be giving people a message that something, education, is specifically permitted and then fining them for it. Hmm....


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## rederob (6 April 2020)

While we see billions of dollars flying around to protect so many things, we have not seen and *ideas for job creation.*
In south eastern States in particular we have an opportunity to restimulate the renewables sector by immediately implementing the proposed system upgrades which have hampered electricity transmission.  
At the same time subsidies for battery/solar packages could be enhanced, along with removing the 5Kw feed-in limit so that household could install larger systems if their rooftops allowed.
There are numerous initiatives, such as microgrids, which can be now commenced that can prevent load shedding next summer.  In other words, rather than subsidise large energy generators, put more control over electricity costs in the hands of consumers.


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## barney (6 April 2020)

Amongst all the current throwing money around to save our communities from economic decimation … (Hundreds of Billions of dollars!!)

I still cannot understand why the most effective way (pre- vaccine) to stop this thing in its tracks has not been pursued with more vigour by our *intelligent leaders* and number crunchers

I'm an average guy but I like to think I'm a fair problem solver.  It occurred to me over 3 weeks ago (I posted my suggestion back then before we went into partial lock down), that the infection could be well curtailed *quite easily* … *IF we had access to extensive TESTING*. 

*
How is this possible? 
*

*1)* Lets assume for a moment that Australia has access to "*Unlimited*" testing facilities to ascertain who is carrying the virus (whether they are showing symptoms or not!)


Assuming *1)* is available, the process is *simple and effective*.

a) *Total Lock down* of each Town/City/Community for 14 days (Not the current partial lock down which could linger for 6 or 12 months with potentially minimal advantage)

b) Test *EVERYONE* for the Virus after the 14 day 'incubation' period.  *Everyone* remains in lock down *UNTIL* all results are received (lets say 2 weeks instead of the normal 3-5 days to cover the volume of work) … So a total of *1 month* for what would be some *very effective* statistics in dealing with future spreading of the V.

c) Those testing Positive are* immediately QUARANTINED*  (*Not* simply isolated .. *Quarantined* for at least a month)

Infections are therefore isolated and treated with *no further contact* with others until they are "cleared" of the virus.


Lets go a step or two further and suggest that if the above was done *2 or 3 times in succession*  ie. Lets say *3 months of TOTAL LOCK DOWN* to ascertain who were infected and who weren't  ...

I ask the question … Would this 3 months of "*pro-actively*" curtailing the spread of the V cost more, or less than our current "*re-active*" measures which will likely plunge our economy into years of hardship??

Australia has some of the *best Medical personnel* in the world  … Our Government needs to get PRO-active and pump a portion of the Billions of dollars they are intending to spend for the next decade just to keep Australia afloat  …. and spend it on funding *Manufacturing TEST KITS* which could effectively slow infection rates to *near zero in 3 months*!!

Please ... can anyone tell me why my concept is not possible or flawed because it just looks like common sense to me   ... 

Apologies if I sound frustrated  … I have a close family member who is 'close to the action' and it annoys me that their well-being is currently being jeopardized. Cheers, and stay well.


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2020)

IMO nothing wrong with your thinking Barney, just from the bits and pieces I've read, it all seems to boil down to a lack of test kits and lack of materials to make them.


----------



## qldfrog (6 April 2020)

Even without any testing in mass, lockdown.. enforced of everyone for 3 weeks,  then full release except   for households units displaying any symptom or having displayed during lockdown.. ideally tested
Repeat quarantine only with these
Bob is your uncle
Obviously, there is always the odds for a family of 3 or above going  transmission asymptomatic from one to the others but odds are low and we can then go to a test and track policy targetting new cases
This means no external entry into Australia without quarantine.. mandatory..
The great unknown are can you be contaminated twice?, once healed, can you still transmit?
And why do we have so few cases here compared to europe with a lockdown which is not applied strictly by many..?
Still missing something, 
this week cold weather in Victoria could help us see if temperature is a factor.
Will we see a Victoria specific bounce in cases in the next 3 weeks.?..


----------



## qldfrog (6 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Even without any testing in mass, lockdown.. enforced of everyone for 3 weeks,  then full release except   for households units displaying any symptom or having displayed during lockdown.. ideally tested
> Repeat quarantine only with these
> Bob is your uncle
> Obviously, there is always the odds for a family of 3 or above going  transmission asymptomatic from one to the others but odds are low and we can then go to a test and track policy targetting new cases
> ...



I would add mask wearing pressure on restart.
And please please do not be as our favorite qld PM who tell us lockdown until vaccine, a bit like saying no more power plant until fusion
A dream is not a policy


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 April 2020)

rederob said:


> removing the 5Kw feed-in limit



Agreed with your broad point but feed-in limits are much like speed limits. There for a good reason which has nothing to do with the economy.

Remove them and the result is the same, it leads to survival of the fittest.

In the case of solar it would simply increase the problem that some systems on households work just fine whilst others are heavily curtailed. Those further down the line will see even bigger curtailment, in some cases to the point of making the system largely pointless, if enough people add high capacity systems.

The idea was certainly around in the power industry, just leave the solar industry to do whatever it likes without limit, but it was considered that the non-solar parts of the industry would probably end up copping the flak when someone's 3 year old solar system is rendered obsolete and effectively useless by someone else installing a large system in a network position (location) which naturally gives it an advantage and pushes out someone else. Etc.

At a personal level well my house just happens to be at a strong point on the distribution network. That actually is a coincidence by the way, it wasn't why I bought the place, although I'll probably struggle to convince anyone of that.  It actually is true though. For those down the end of the line though, well they'd have reasons to be unhappy.

I do agree with the concept though that energy, both on the supply side and the demand side, is an area where otherwise unemployed labour could be put to use.

Here in SA an obvious one would be reprogramming all the Type 5 meters with controlled load (electric hot water) to operate during the 10am - 3pm period which is one thing needed in order to get around the network constraints obstructing further solar deployment. Those meters don't communicate, they all need a physical site visit, but the task isn't rocket science. Only reason it hasn't happened thus far is nobody can work out who pays.

Another one in this area which comes to mind is building a network of EV fast chargers nationally. 

Plus of course it must be said that if the aim is to put people to work well then there's a reason Tasmania pretty much did bet the house on hydro development during the Great Depression. The approach today would be different but ultimately if we're going to build pumped hydro well then it does create a lot of man hours of work to build it and has lasting value once it's built.


----------



## barney (6 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Even without any testing in mass, lockdown.. enforced of everyone for 3 weeks,  then full release except   for households units displaying any symptom or having displayed during lockdown.. ideally tested Repeat quarantine only with these
> Bob is your uncle




Absolutely Frog ….. As you say … even if we dont currently have the ability to test en-masse, at least testing the most likely cases *after* an appropriate "short term"* lock down* is the next best option.

I just can't understand why the big honchos are not pushing for ways to expedite mandatory testing across the board  …  

*Testing* is acknowledged as our *best defence* strategy against the V yet I don't recall any high profile politicians advocating a process whereby Australia *pro-actively* addresses the shortage of test kits as a priority … 

Rather we seem to hear a view of acceptance that …  "we don't have enough test kits so we must use them where most appropriate  … or, we are hoping to receive more kits from OS when they become available! 

Surely fabricating a plan to manufacture our own kits in house (given our medical expertise) would be a *far better short to mid term plan* for all Australians than throwing billions of dollars at what will possibly become a failing economy , while we hope for a vaccine which may in reality never eventuate. 

I know I'm ranting ... apologies to all  ... but it seems a solution (not a cure I know) is readily available if certain steps are taken.   Its time to be the windscreen and not the bug!!


----------



## rederob (6 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed with your broad point but feed-in limits are much like speed limits. There for a good reason which has nothing to do with the economy.
> 
> Remove them and the result is the same, it leads to survival of the fittest.
> 
> ...



I understand those issues @Smurf1976 , and it's why I suggested the battery/solar option.  It would make more sense for this *new cohort* to "store" energy when at the same time the solar feed-in merchants are doing the exact opposite.  In combination with microgrids it may enable (and please correct me if I am wrong) the feed-in merchants to be diverted to batteries within the microgrid and completely avoid curtailment.
I guess my point is that there is an opportunity to create jobs and induce spending into an area where down the track savings can be realised.  A smart State government could work out how subsidy offsets could be later recouped.


----------



## rederob (6 April 2020)

barney said:


> Amongst all the current throwing money around to save our communities from economic decimation … (Hundreds of Billions of dollars!!)
> 
> I still cannot understand why the most effective way (pre- vaccine) to stop this thing in its tracks has not been pursued with more vigour by our *intelligent leaders* and number crunchers
> 
> ...



In a fashion this occurred in Wuhan.
Soon after lockdown occurred on 23 January, every positively tested person was transferred to the newly built hospitals and isolation centres (a dozen all up from memory).  If you tested positive you did not have the option to stay at home like we prefer happens here!
In coming months it is likely that many other nations will have access to self testing kits, but not Australia.  We will have the TGA to thank for that.
However, what's the use of testing if there is no means to recognise it?
Again, China has solved that via an app.  It's not a perfect solution, but it's pretty clever and better than nothing at all.
The IPA put out a paper today, and while I usually don't think they are progressive, they made some good points.  I might review it in the morning and post back as their ideas were along the lines of what motivated me to add this new thread.


----------



## rederob (7 April 2020)

I misread an article about the IPA - they have a long podcast instead.
Aside from the IPA's concern about the legal restraints on civil liberties, they suggest that we have done the nation no favours by restricting business to the extent it has.
Anyway, we don't have the masks available (they need not be N95 type), nor the hand sanitiser, necessary for individuals to adequately protect themselves when going out in public or going to places of work.
WRT to face masks, the point health experts have consistently overlooked is that if you wear a mask then you cannot put your infected fingers in your mouth or nose.  The other avenue of the virus into your body is your eyes - so those wearing glasses win the trifecta.
Social distancing is all good and well, but if you come back from the supermarket after touching a contaminated product and you had no hand sanitiser, then it was a useless measure.
My view is that if we can make the necessary basics available for people to safely venture out, and train them to sanitise their hands after every contact with any surface, then the only restrictions needing to remain in place would relate to public gatherings which crammed people into seats/spaces for long periods. 
That's where Wuhan is right now, while other Chinese cities took their foot off the accelerator some weeks back.
The difference we have in Australia is that we do not have a large infection base to begin with, so our crackdowns needn't be as aggressive as those in Wuhan.
We would, however, have to run other health initiatives in tandem.  These would include mandatory isolation of all positively tested cases so there was no opportunity for the Ruby Princess syndrome to promulgate, plus increased rates of official COVID-19 testing supplemented by "antibody" self testing kits.


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## rederob (9 April 2020)

How good was the $130b measure that went through Parliament last night in protecting jobs?

Well, it was good for about 6 million workers, but not for about 2 million workers who will miss out.  Nevertheless, 75% is a good pass mark.  The question then is what were the other options.

First, the intent of JobKeeper is to enable employers to maintain a connection with their staff who could no longer be gainfully employed.   While it's a great idea, an option was to use compulsory superannuation payments as the link, rather than the more expensive wage subsidy that mostly pays people not to work.  I would have set the government contribution at $75/week, which is about 10% of the minimum wage.

Next, I would have created a *new *social security category for displaced employees so that it would be possible to properly determine who was being affected, plus capture other data from them that would enable better targeted assistance in the event a similar virus hits the planet in future. 

Finally, I would have ensured that displaced workers received a livable benefit rather than the standard rate received by previously unemployed.


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## rederob (11 April 2020)

Evidence that our government is out of ideas about actually stimulating job creation are found all across the country.
This project in WA should have been jumped on.  Not just ultra-low risk, but high return in that much needed medical supplies could be brought back on return flights.
At the local level, fruit & vegetable growers in eastern Australia are still hamstrung by an inability to have fruit pickers cross State borders unless they go into 14 days quarantine.  And that's aside from the issue of finding accommodation as they go, because often their group size would prevent the usual sharing arrangements.
Building and construction projects should have been fast tracked as these activities are low risk for virus transmission.  We could have had a lot of State Housing underway, and we could have ramped up infrastructure projects.
We don't have any visionary projects to launch into, so that remains a major failure of Morrison.  He's so focused on steering us off the rocks that he's lost the map to our destination.


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## tech/a (11 April 2020)

Barney 
If we could place a dome over wherever 
You want to test and quarantine the virus
Into oblivion.
Then it has merit 
Truth is unless you permanent close borders
Both domestically and internationally you’ll
Just keep re infecting 

Personally I think herd immunity and some form of 
Vaccine will see us all live with Covid 19 
Eradication in my view is not going to happen. 

need to learn lessons and quickly 
Chances are a serious virus (much higher mortality rate)
will appear at sometime
In the future. This is simply a test run.

Economically I think there will be a re balance.
A modification of free trade to not so much free trade.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2020)

I'd like to see a general manufacturing company set up under government subsidy.

One that could coordinate the building/manufacture of items that could be scarce if we had to depend on overseas supply, and let's face it, that's virtually everything these days.

This company wouldn't have to produce every little piece of the items, they would subcontract to the private sector and get the best price for the supply of components, like our dearly departed auto industry did.

They could encourage a degree of commonality between items they produce. eg virtually every device these days requires a CPU, memory and other integrated circuits. The same components could be used in a multitude of applications thus giving economies of scale.

This could be the basis for a revival of Australian manufacturing. Some suppression of competition from overseas would be needed, but not taken so far as to encourage featherbedding of local industry. The competition factor should exist, but cooperation comes into the equation as well.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd like to see a general manufacturing company set up under government subsidy.
> 
> One that could coordinate the building/manufacture of items that could be scarce if we had to depend on overseas supply, and let's face it, that's virtually everything these days.
> 
> ...



Humpy, we could actually tweak the idea so that we created a national manufacturing training centre of excellence, which provided opportunities for people from apprentices to managers to learn not only how to produce things, but do it with the best available technology in association with production skills which were 21st century.
We have an outdated, inflexible training system at present and with so little manufacturing now being local, it would be imperative that this skill base grew, in keeping with world best practices.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Humpy, we could actually tweak the idea so that we created a national manufacturing training centre of excellence, which provided opportunities for people from apprentices to managers to learn not only how to produce things, but do it with the best available technology in association with production skills which were 21st century.
> We have an outdated, inflexible training system at present and with so little manufacturing now being local, it would be imperative that this skill base grew, in keeping with world best practices.




Good idea Bobby, excellent training is obviously essential, but if we don't have the industry in place to employ these skilled people, they will just go elsewhere.

What should come first ? We shouldn't create vast production lines waiting for people to turn up and use them, so maybe the first trainees will be the ones to set up the company and develope the processes.

We would also need those with commercial expertise to sniff out the opportunities and commercialise the ideas.

There would need to be some mechanism to make contact with inventors who have good ideas but no idea of how to put them into production.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Good idea Bobby, excellent training is obviously essential, but if we don't have the industry in place to employ these skilled people, they will just go elsewhere.
> 
> What should come first ? We shouldn't create vast production lines waiting for people to turn up and use them, so maybe the first trainees will be the ones to set up the company and develope the processes.
> 
> ...



First, we already invest $2.8B annually in vocational training, so putting aside +$100m would build and sustain a pretty good facility, especially as some costs could be offset by real world production of goods via the facility.  Alternatively, the facility could double as a testing ground for whole-of-product manufacturing where current manufacturers simply lack the ability and knowledge to keep up with the rest of the world.
I would envision the facility as a manufacturing style CSIRO.
As a very quick aside, China is pouring $billions into getting their chip technology up to speed, as presently they are reliant on external suppliers for the most advanced technology.  Once they win on that front the USA will be cactus.


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Evidence that our government is out of ideas about actually stimulating job creation are found all across the country.
> This project in WA should have been jumped on.  Not just ultra-low risk, but high return in that much needed medical supplies could be brought back on return flights.
> At the local level, fruit & vegetable growers in eastern Australia are still hamstrung by an inability to have fruit pickers cross State borders unless they go into 14 days quarantine.  And that's aside from the issue of finding accommodation as they go, because often their group size would prevent the usual sharing arrangements.
> Building and construction projects should have been fast tracked as these activities are low risk for virus transmission.  We could have had a lot of State Housing underway, and we could have ramped up infrastructure projects.
> We don't have any visionary projects to launch into, so that remains a major failure of Morrison.  He's so focused on steering us off the rocks that he's lost the map to our destination.



Appreciate your points but in their defence we have been overwhelmed in the finding the best way to fight. Maybe a little patience? Would be great to see another bipartisan govt group of planners working on opportunities and forecasting opportunities and how to enable them.


----------



## kahuna1 (11 April 2020)

Trump has a cure ....




Since his main support base is types like this ... I kid you not.

Meanwhile ... USA set to report more infections per million and deaths adjusted for population and since some states only shut down and SOME still not fully, but 4th April ... and he wants to go back to work 1st May with 5 times 0our infection rate ?

Watch the preacher again and again.


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2020)

rederob said:


> We have an outdated, inflexible training system



This right here is a huge problem in Australia. Neither government  has addressed the issue. But it is extremely difficult to learn here and then set up afterwards.


----------



## basilio (11 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Trump has a cure ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Horrific...One can forget what true insanity is until this this sort of dribble come up.


----------



## lindsayf (11 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Trump has a cure ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





FMD! What a sad, mad and distorted individual.  Sadder and more distored the idea that there are people that listen.  Poor old USA..and any other place that gives any validity to blatant delusional insanity as a way forward.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Trump has a cure ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This seems to be a particularly American phenomenon, the insane Bible basher. We don't see such things in Australia, UK, Canada. I wonder why.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

Americans coined the phrase "god bless America" but maybe they should look elsewhere for their trust.


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## rederob (11 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We would also need those with commercial expertise to sniff out the opportunities and commercialise the ideas.



Geelong has some ready build facilities that would be ideal now that we have lost vehicle manufacturing.
I reckon there are also lots of talented people around Geelong that were previously involved in manufacturing.  
Were the idea to have legs, then straight off the bat the Victorian Premier could go to Elon Musk and see if we could be involved in elements of production for his Cybertruck or even the whole shooting match.  If SA could get the world's biggest battery, why can't Victorians get the world's biggest electric ute?


----------



## barney (11 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Watch the preacher again and again.




I watched almost twice at your suggestion @kahuna1   ... you owe me big time!

Guys like this man (and I use the word "man" lightly when dealing with users and manipulators such as he) do a disservice to the thousands of socially conscious people who go about their daily lives trying to genuinely help others with no hidden agenda. The man is genuinely scary! ..

I love (not) the way he implores those who have lost their jobs to "don't stop tithing" and keep sending him money so he can reach his $300 million target that "god" has promised him …..  

Watching him makes me want to go out and buy some silver bullets, garlic, and a few wooden stakes!


----------



## kahuna1 (11 April 2020)

This sadly is more sobering ....

3 deep 2 in a row so 6 per 1 metre and the pit is 80 metres long.

Sadly there is 2 pits. 500 per pit .... so so sad and also angry at what the Yanks endure.




Likely this gets removed ....

But this is America and 2020 .... whilst Trump claims all is well.

Unlikely much changes, the media is well .... not free and the sad fat is both parties with a few exceptions are almost identical.

Do we, Australia ... want to have anything done with a nation led by such people ? Not the common people, the leaders. The common people are those being brainwashed or buried here.

Time for a please explain from Morrison ?

It may not be removed this video as CNN is the actual people who provide many of these clips and well .... they try a little harder to remove the clouds of BS surrounding Trump and other neoliberals. 

MAGA ... maybe Trump can use the footage as I am sure it will appeal to many of his supporters.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 April 2020)

tech/a said:


> Economically I think there will be a re balance.
> A modification of free trade to not so much free trade.



I'll be very surprised if there isn't at least some move in this direction.

There already was to limited extent before COVID-19 and that'll almost certainly give it a huge push along.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 April 2020)

rederob said:


> We have an outdated, inflexible training system at present and with so little manufacturing now being local, it would be imperative that this skill base grew, in keeping with world best practices.



A related issue is that much technical and related training in Australia focuses on one of two things.

It's either "tick a box" compliance activity being done purely to cover someone's rear end legally or it's focused on pushing out the highest possible volume of work at the lowest tolerable cost and quality. Neither will cut it when it comes to manufacturing high quality products.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

I have been trying to find something on how the government is going to get us back to "normal."
Does anyone know if something exists?
Some ideas:

First, until we have educated people properly about how the infection is caught *AND *the 3 simple steps to be safe, we are wasting our time:
social distancing is *not *an option in a functional economy, so wearing face masks and having readily available sanitiser for use after touching *any *surface is essential when not at home

Second, implement a system that allows all returning employees to check for antibodies and ensure that anyone testing positive is immediately isolated (the fact we still rely on "self monitoring" is a recipe for disaster)
Third, if you haven't been tested then you don't go back to work
Use mobile technology to (as a suggestion, link this to your Medicare number) accord you a "pass" which can be used for access to public transport and places of work
Use technology to enable contact tracing in the event you subsequently become infected for some reason
Ensure temperature checking equipment is in wide use as a supplement to the above (again, I remain in disbelief that it's not been anywhere I have visited this year)
Identify industry sectors that are initially low risk, and provide guidance on safe operating practices. In fact, do this in conjunction with all industry bodies so that it is they who endorse safe practices. (I remain bewildered that many hairdressers are still working without any protective equipment.)
Lift all border restrictions where people have a "pass"
Communicate the strategy and make clear that the progressive scale-backs are targeted rather than broad-brush, so we do not penalise the many for any infractions from a few.
Some nations have proposed that "young" people can get back to work first as they might get infected but are less likely to end up at ICUs.  Frankly, if you have "passed" the hurdles I have outlined above it really does not matter how old you are.  The issue here is that we do not want to add to our nation's infection rate, and that's what constant testing ensures.


----------



## matty77 (12 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> It may not be removed this video as CNN is the actual people who provide many of these clips and well .... they try a little harder to remove the clouds of BS surrounding Trump and other neoliberals.




CNN you friendly left wing news media. Yeah right, you couldnt pick any more of a biased media outlet towards Trump unless you chose MSNBC. lol


----------



## qldfrog (12 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> CNN you friendly left wing news media. Yeah right, you couldnt pick any more of a biased media outlet towards Trump unless you chose MSNBC. lol



CNN was Bush channel, definitively NOT pro Trump indeed 
Pure democrat establishment: anti Sanders pro Biden anti Trump;


----------



## kahuna1 (12 April 2020)

Left wing ?

This more illuminating... MSNBC ? Barb the interviewer was with NBC for decades. Now on "The View"  the ultra right wing show on ABC in the USA. FOX on steroids ... is the view. Megan McCain and her diet issues some token African American wearing a mop .... and so on ... Whoppi something, cushion ? 

I see your views are totally rational and well thought out.



Possibly you listened to that preacher too many times ? Limit is 3 .... in a lifetime or you end up with severe dementia.


----------



## matty77 (12 April 2020)

kahuna1 said:


> Left wing ?
> 
> This more illuminating... MSNBC ? Barb the interviewer was with NBC for decades. Now on "The View"  the ultra right wing show on ABC in the USA. FOX on steroids ... is the view. Megan McCain and her diet issues some token African American wearing a mop .... and so on ... Whoppi something, cushion ?
> 
> ...





lol cool story bro, sorry I just need to take my tin foil hat off for a second...

thanks for cheering me up today.


----------



## noirua (12 April 2020)




----------



## Smurf1976 (12 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Use technology to enable contact tracing in the event you subsequently become infected for some reason



FWIW there are some applications which already make use of Bluetooth for tracking. 

Eg it has been used to collect road traffic data for quite some years now in Australian cities. They're not interested in who you are, just that xzy123 went from A to B via these streets at this time which then enables working out things like, for example, what the ultimate destination of all cars crossing a particular bridge or using a particular road is. That data then facilitates reasonable assumptions being made as to how many would use some other hypothetical alternative road if it were built. Etc.

Only issue I can see is that in a Western democracy it would be extremely difficult to bring in any rule which says someone must carry a phone or other device at all times or even that it's turned on. That most people do so voluntarily much of the time is one thing but insisting on it would be problematic most definitely and especially so in situations where the device would be highly at risk of damage hence why it's not being carried in the first place. Etc.


----------



## basilio (13 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> FWIW there are some applications which already make use of Bluetooth for tracking.
> 
> Eg it has been used to collect road traffic data for quite some years now in Australian cities. They're not interested in who you are, just that xzy123 went from A to B via these streets at this time which then enables working out things like, for example, what the ultimate destination of all cars crossing a particular bridge or using a particular road is. That data then facilitates reasonable assumptions being made as to how many would use some other hypothetical alternative road if it were built. Etc.
> 
> Only issue I can see is that in a Western democracy it would be extremely difficult to bring in any rule which says someone must carry a phone or other device at all times or even that it's turned on. That most people do so voluntarily much of the time is one thing but insisting on it would be problematic most definitely and especially so in situations where the device would be highly at risk of damage hence why it's not being carried in the first place. Etc.




Indeed that would be hard to to achieve voluntarily.

Probably far better to simply imbed a tracking device into everyone. That would ensure we knew where everyone was at any one time and we could track their historical movements and see how they intersected with people who had the  virus and could have passed it on.  Perhaps start with people at high risk and then integrate into the rest of the community ?

I understand that Peter Dutton and the Department of Homeland Security are  leading a task force with  multi department members to present this option as a health measure to secure the long term safety and security of the population.  I feel safer already just thinking about it....


----------



## rederob (13 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Indeed that would be hard to to achieve voluntarily.
> 
> Probably far better to simply imbed a tracking device into everyone. That would ensure we knew where everyone was at any one time and we could track their historical movements and see how they intersected with people who had the  virus and could have passed it on.  Perhaps start with people at high risk and then integrate into the rest of the community ?
> 
> I understand that Peter Dutton and the Department of Homeland Security are  leading a task force with  multi department members to present this option as a health measure to secure the long term safety and security of the population.  I feel safer already just thinking about it....



In China to travel you need your mobile - it's not an option.
In Oz, I personally do not know anyone in the workforce who does not have a mobile phone on them most of the time, including tradies.
The app being developed is a *proximity *app, rather than a pure location app, so it becomes possible to contact everyone you were near to.  A tracking program does not have this accuracy nor functionality.
As for Mr Dutton, he's missed the boat!


----------



## matty77 (13 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> lol cool story bro, sorry I just need to take my tin foil hat off for a second...
> 
> thanks for cheering me up today.




sorry I'm probably being a bit rude... my bad.

Honestly though you are blind if you cant admit that Fox News leans to the right and CNN leans to the left, if you cant see that then its a real concern and I just dont understand how people that are on the Left just scream Orange Man Bad or Russia and think that is some sort of argument.

Trump will win 2020 by a landslide despite the media bias against him, I mean you cant seriously say you would rather Biden in office? That guys doesnt even know where he is half the time and he is the Democrats number one candidate? Just makes me chuckle inside..

Here is a preview of Biden being president!


----------



## rederob (13 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> sorry I'm probably being a bit rude... my bad.
> 
> Honestly though you are blind if you cant admit that Fox News leans to the right and CNN leans to the left, if you cant see that then its a real concern and I just dont understand how people that are on the Left just scream Orange Man Bad or Russia and think that is some sort of argument.
> 
> ...



None of that is relevant to this thread.
Unless you want to showcase how Trump's inertia has led the USA into a predicament which is likely to kill their economy.


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## kahuna1 (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Unless you want to showcase how Trump's inertia has led the USA into a predicament which is likely to kill their economy.




Well I would not agree.
They just did a bailout, large companies only  .... 454 billion to be leveraged to *4.54 TRILLION* .... or 25% of the GDP !!

They do NOT care about non whites or in fact anyone outside the top 10%.

I suspect with funds, the companies will endure. Small business .... thrown crumbs and it employs 60% of the people. Less than 5% of that number .... yes 5% .. 

At Mara Lago it doesn't matter.

The numbers they are reporting, as soon as it all had to be approved became ... fiction.

Sorry not conspiracy just, what they are.

This ... is the impact on the richest nation on the planet supposedly .... it is ... for the top 10%

Whilst in any society even ours, some do it tough. NOT the bloody lower 70% ... watch this closely all across America millions NOW reliant upon food banks to even EAT.




the elite .... dont care.
It took 16 months in the GFC for them to bail out the banks. Over 33 million Americans lost their HOME.
This time it took 16 days to bail out the crooks who paid NO tax had their tax halved and well watch the video again.

Nothing ... will change. Any Democratic contender even thinking about a cheaper healthcare universal system had to squashed. First Warren then Sanders.

As for taxing the rich, in the USA ... Bloomberg ran for one sole purpose and that was to get rid of Wealth tax plans for Warren and when she fell ... Sanders.

Change will occur but likely not till 2024.
Biden proposes NO change. So another 4 years likely of Trump as Biden is pathetic.

Either way, Biden or Trump .... both dance to the tune of corporate donations, healthcare industry, military industrial complex .... and the rest ... Prison industry ...

Not sure the rest of the world however will tolerate USA plans for this slush fund. One aimed at the very top.

USA has been a joke internationally under Trump, now, a disgrace and a total buffoon.

The lower 70% did not have  $400- for an emergency .... prior to CV19 and some states big ones only closed down on 4th April.

Trump, seriously did not learn ... does not care ... and will send them back to work 1st May with results that are science not political dogma.

That the Latino and African Americans are around 80% of the deaths due to NON existent healthcare, well, again, they build the wall ... and as for the African Americans they are NOT white so dont exist in the worlds of Buffett and Gates and the rest.


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## rederob (19 April 2020)

Back on topic, Rio Tinto is setting the example that our elected officials should have implemented weeks ago:
*Rio Tinto is now increasing screening measures by introducing a trial of COVID-19 rapid screening at Perth Airport and at the company’s nearby Operations Centre. This will form part of an enhanced five-layer screening process designed to keep the community and the company’s workforce safe. This includes:*

*A health questionnaire - employees will be asked a series of questions a day prior to traveling to screen for potential exposures to COVID-19, consistent with government restrictions on intra-state travel.*
*A face-to-face assessment with a nurse at Perth Airport.*
*Thermal screening – the employee’s temperature is taken via electronic thermometer.*
*Rapid screening - enables the quick identification of people who may be at increased risk of having a viral illness prior to coming to site.*
*This requires a small blood sample taken via a finger pinprick to detect viral related antibodies in the individual’s blood.*
*This screening process is not a test for COVID-19. The detection of any viral-related antibodies requires the individual to self-isolate as a precaution and seek prompt testing at an approved clinic.*

*Those cleared will receive an access band allowing them to board their flight.*
*Trained medical staff will perform the COVID-19 screening process with oversight by Rio Tinto’s occupational physician. There will also be oversight of the comprehensive research into the COVID-19 screening outcomes. The new measures reflect Rio Tinto’s health and safety obligations under applicable Australian legislation.
*​Given the huge sums already spent on airport screening to discover a dangerous manicure kit, I think most people would be happy to pay a bit more to be sure that they would not be setting next to someone whose breath could kill them.  More importantly, this would provide an invaluable level of additional screening for a group who was largely responsible for spreading the virus - ie, interstate and international travellers.


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## matty77 (19 April 2020)

Also if you want a free health check up just go to the airport and go through security for free and you will find out all you need to know...

Didnt someone from Rio just get Corona and infect a site? I swear I read that somewhere but could be wrong..


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## Country Lad (20 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> Didnt someone from Rio just get Corona and infect a site? I swear I read that somewhere but could be wrong..




It was apparently a false positive


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## rederob (20 April 2020)

Country Lad said:


> It was apparently a false positive



I could not find an update.
RIO's POCT tests show *exposure*, and if positive for antibodies an acute diagnostic test needs to be carried out. 
So the process gets simpler from there as the worker won't fly until the all clear is given.  Seems pretty straight forward.


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## Dona Ferentes (23 April 2020)

*What are the options for a pandemic exit strategy?*

_The risk of easing restrictions early is still large but it could be managed progressively, while the risk of staying out longer will be crippling for the economy_.

by Michael Rice, co-authored with Alun Stevens and Michael Berg, Senior Consultants at actuarial firm, Rice Warner


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## rederob (23 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> *What are the options for a pandemic exit strategy?*
> 
> _The risk of easing restrictions early is still large but it could be managed progressively, while the risk of staying out longer will be crippling for the economy_.
> 
> by Michael Rice, co-authored with Alun Stevens and Michael Berg, Senior Consultants at actuarial firm, Rice Warner



Maybe we need actuaries to guide Scomo instead of his panel of experts that seem to have no idea how to get us all back to work quickly, except for coming up with a few the blindingly obvious factors.
Hawke had the right idea a long time ago when he got his new government heading in the right direction from the get go by holding the National Economic Summit, and then continuing to involve key players in reforming the nation.
Scomo has neither the policy nous nor social acumen to effectively involve others in decision making.


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## matty77 (23 April 2020)

40% of people need to be on this tracker apparently before they will consider going back to normal.

what a load of crap.


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## rederob (24 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> 40% of people need to be on this tracker apparently before they will consider going back to normal.
> 
> what a load of crap.



It seems to be a crazy made up figure that it is not based on any rationale.
The tracking app is only of value to those who will be near to people they would *not *ordinarily know, and be close to them for whatever amount of time the app is configured to.  
That would be of benefit to people using public transport right now.  
It would be especially handy if bars, clubs and restaurants were to open for business.
The data we do have confirms that most known positive cases can be tracked back to international travellers and their known close contacts.
If we are going to be smart about why an app would be useful, how about explaining the circumstances so that people who are most likely *not to know* who they have been close to for a set amount of time realise it's for their specific benefit, rather than come up with a dodgy figure.


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## matty77 (24 April 2020)

I just dont trust the government when they say it wont be used for other things, the AUS government has a long list of things they like to do underhandedly to chip away at our freedoms, this is just another one of those things, for example no cash transactions over $10k.. we all know this is just part of them getting rid of cash altogether so they can track 100% of what we spend..

I understand high risk people there is a case for them to use it, but just 40% of the population because why? makes zero sense.


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## rederob (24 April 2020)

matty77 said:


> I just dont trust the government when they say it wont be used for other things, the AUS government has a long list of things they like to do underhandedly to chip away at our freedoms, this is just another one of those things, for example no cash transactions over $10k.. we all know this is just part of them getting rid of cash altogether so they can track 100% of what we spend..
> 
> I understand high risk people there is a case for them to use it, but just 40% of the population because why? makes zero sense.



The tracking app could be written so as to store the information on our phones, rather than send it to the cloud.
Then, if we were ever tested and founded positive, it could be our choice to either recount our contacts, or download the app.


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## rederob (24 December 2020)

Having recently flown interstate I revisited this thread started in April - 8 months ago - to find little has changed.

Airports did not require us to fill in Covid questionnaires; no temperature screening or POCT/PCR testing took place, masks were provided but not mandatory (fewer than half those on our flights actually wore masks), and most airport social distancing floor markers were impractical so not adhered to, while no seating was "distanced".  On the plus side, there was plenty sanitiser available, and cafe and concession workers were assiduously cleaning their areas, but public waiting areas were not being wiped down (a flight delay meant we observed no cleaning for almost 4 hours at Hobart).  See post #70 above for what the private sector has in place since March! 
There is no mass disinfection of high traffic public areas anywhere in Australia that I am aware.  It seems that the onus rests solely with the private sector.
Quarantining/isolation arrangements vary by State/Territory, as do triggers and stages for lockdowns and for border closures.  There is zero POCT testing that I am aware, and this could have been mandated for border crossings and international flight crew as a precursor to PCR tests if necessary.
We have no means of identifying who may be safe via existing antibodies, nor presently for identifying those who get vaccinated; this latter point vital if you have followed Allan Joyce.
 The Covid Safe App has been a waste of time, and most places we visited instead insisted on the QR code or a paper record of our details.  Our federal leaders have well and truly dropped the ball on technology, as some nations mandating QR codes have also integrated hotspot warnings, and personal experience with the virus (eg testing status and geotracking through hotspots).  
On the economic front no new initiatives were undertaken, and job creation has taken a back seat to financial support.
Covid measures affecting seasonal agriculture workers have not been addressed.  
We do not have a "testing flying squad" that can be deployed at a moment's notice to anywhere in Australia to quickly get on top of spread.  (China has had several outbreaks in cities of around 10 million, and been able to test a million people a day.) 
Some other good ideas from posters in this thread, eg relating to manufacturing and training, have gone begging.
Australia seems to have dodged the covid bullet by and large through good luck, and via some State Premiers taking a really hard line on borders and internal covid-safe measures.  Those in Victoria who did it tough for many months as a result of maladministration of overseas travellers in quarantine can now breathe a lot easier.  We in other States never want to have those circumstances visited upon us.  However, as my recent flight showed, we remain complacent and still have very few arrangements in place to facilitate consistently safe travel, *which should be unrestricted across all of Australia except for specific locations where hotspots arise.*

It is curious that many SE Asian nations have done comparatively well containing covid.  The most successful have characteristics such as

Competent and strategic leadership
Acceptance of science and ability to effect testing, tracing and technology
Popular respect for leadership and trust of measures necessary; and
Commitment to society and social bonds rather than selfish individualism.
Looking at the above, it's not hard to see a number of Premiers scoring highly from their citizens.


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