# Navra managed funds



## fivemillion (29 December 2005)

Hello everyone

I am new to this forum. I am wondering if anyone has heard of Navra managed funds or had any experience with them.

Would love to hear from anyone who has invested in other managed funds as well.


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## Ann (29 December 2005)

Hi Fivemillion,



>>Link to Information<<


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## GreatPig (29 December 2005)

Also take a look on the Somersoft Property Forums, as Steve Navra used to regularly post there and there have been lots of questions and answers about his retail and wholesale funds.

Cheers,
GP


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## Ann (29 December 2005)

Hi Fivemillion,

Why on earth would you buy into an unlisted fund who manages Blue chips? You will probably be paying much higher fees and unlike a Listed Investment Comany, you can't flick it if there appears to be a downturn in the markets. LIC's pay franking dividends as well as having the oportunity of capital gains from the LIC's increasing price.

Do yourself a favour and look at some Listed Investment Companies first. They often pay bonus dividends as well.


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## The Barbarian Investor (29 December 2005)

Check out Invested as well..

Invested Link


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## mit (29 December 2005)

I think that one of the advantages is that his style is very different from other funds, so in theory you can diversify your risks by adding his fund to a portfolio of funds. He invests by buying blue chips in pull-backs and selling as they recover.

Also, it is very much income orientated and aimed at property investors who are capital rich but have hit servicability limits in their property portfolio.

Note that I have nothing invested in any fund as I enjoy direct investment too much.

MIT


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## Julia (29 December 2005)

Just wondering why you'd want to pay anyone to handle your money/investments when you can place it directly into high yield blue chips yourself and pay only minimal online brokerage?

Julia


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## laurie (29 December 2005)

Julia said:
			
		

> Just wondering why you'd want to pay anyone to handle your money/investments when you can place it directly into high yield blue chips yourself and pay only minimal online brokerage?
> 
> Julia




To a point what you say Julia is true but I have invested into an LIC that invests into the ASX 300 looking for undervalued shares which I could not be  bothered to look into so really I have added diversity into my portfolio again it may not suit everyone

cheers laurie


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## Ann (30 December 2005)

Wasn't yours a listed fund Laurie?

Fivemillion is asking about an unlisted fund.

I agree with you, I think he would be better of looking at a listed fund. Still everyone to their own.


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## fivemillion (30 December 2005)

Hi Ann

Thanks for the response. I have checked out the link.


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## fivemillion (30 December 2005)

I was going to respond to everyone individually but have decided to respond to all in one hit. Much more econimical!!

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and opinions. I agree with the guys that question why I should pay anyone to manage my money and up until recently would never have considered it at all. I also hate the share market as it is manipulated too much by the big fund managers and crooked CEO's who lie to the market. Little investors just get killed.

I am primarily a property investor. I am ready to buy back into something but I cannot justify property at the moment with it's poor return and low prospect of capitol growth in the short to medium term.

I think that if I am going to borrow money for investing then it should be working hard right away. That led me to looking at managed funds as I do not have the time to research stocks myself.

As I see it the trouble with most funds is that they perform poorly and charge high admin costs.

Then I heard about Navra and sat in on one of his weekend courses. His trading methods sound good and he only takes a commission if he meets certain targets. This particular fund also pays regular dividends which could be used to repay loans or more likely re invest.

He also understands that property is a good way for long term wealth building and actively encourages it.

I have also come to the conclusion that it may be smarter to have investments in something other than property. Having an income from a variety of asset types sounds like a smart idea to me. 

I guess I am at the point now where I am trying to convince myself that it is possible to make sound investments in the stock market...........


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## Happy (30 December 2005)

No offence, but smells like an American sophisticated advertisement, if so well done, if not my mistake.


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## The Once-ler (30 December 2005)

Navra claims he uses a system where by he buys on the dips and sells on the rises. Dollar cost trading or something similar.

Well, blow me down. Is that a secret or what! Must try that some time. [in a sarcastic tone].

Seriously. Navra funds don't seem to perform any better than others, and I agree, it's not hard to buy the blue chips your self, for next to no cost.

Good luck.


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## Julia (30 December 2005)

Happy said:
			
		

> No offence, but smells like an American sophisticated advertisement, if so well done, if not my mistake.




I agree with Happy:  anything that tries to get you in with "seminars" makes me suspicious immediately.  I'm not saying it applies with this particular person, but this is the style favoured by salesmen with a rich line in persuasive chat.

Julia


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## GreatPig (30 December 2005)

Well I have to say I've met Steve Navra, and talked to him on Somersoft, and he does seem genuinely interested in helping people with their investments. Many of the Somersoft members that I've met speak highly of him as well.

Primarily I gather he runs a financial planning business, and then operates the two share funds as well. Supposedly his funds only charge fees when they outperform the ASX200 index, which doesn't necessarily mean when they make a profit, and I know a number of the regular members of the Somersoft forums have some money in the funds (I don't, but mainly because I'm an active direct share investor and trader). He calls his method dollar cost trading, where he buys value blue-chips as they fall and sells them off as they rise, with extensive fundamental research being used to determine what's "value".

Apparently he also has a number of strategies he has used with his clients to help them with things like living off equity and using cash bonds to improve serviceability for property finance.

While he does give investment seminars, which I've never been to but have spent a couple of hours listening to one of his talks at a Sydney Investors' Group meeting, I get the impression he doesn't really push his share funds or his financial planning business, but does it partly because he enjoys it, and partly because it does nevertheless advertise his skills and thus help provide clients for his business. The couple of seminars of his I've seen advertised have been relatively cheap compared to others I've seen, and he claimed the price was little more than cost.

From what he said at that meeting, apparently he made most of his money from shares and still makes most of his income from his own share funds, but also has a sizeable property portfolio now.

While I've never used his financial planning services, have never been to his seminars (other than the one free talk I mentioned), and don't have any money in his funds, I think if I was considering any of those things, I'd probably feel more comfortable going with him than most other people - although I'd still want to find out more first.

This is all just my own personal impressions from the one time I've met him, the number of conversations he's been a part of on Somersoft, and the comments of other Somersoft members who both know him and have used his services. I am in no way connected with him and cannot vouch for any of his services or his funds.

Cheers,
GP


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## fivemillion (30 December 2005)

Hi GP

I have also met Steve and know someone who has invested with him in a fairly big way.

He sounds good and I think his trading strategy is as good as any other going around. But I still have a lot of reservations about the stock market. 

Also, the idea of going through a fund manager is that they are set up to do the analysis and watch the portfolio closely. So for the guys who do it them selves, what sort of returns do you achieve from your investments over one year (after all costs).


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## clowboy (30 December 2005)

hmm had a bit of a look at it and it looks okay.

Anyone know if the distributions are tax effective?  Ie are they fully franked?

If they are it is certainly a good income stream investment.

The big downer I have is that they have yet to prove themselves in a bear market.

There returns are basically in line with the sharemarket since inception which is to be expected for the type of stratergy that they have but can they make positive returns when the market turns sour?


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## laurie (31 December 2005)

What people got to remember is that managed funds have an entry & exit fee and the funds available could run dry if people pull out so the manager has to have a fair portion held in cash for exits but with LIC's that's not the case if the inital IPO raised $50m then that's what the manager has got to play with and if the price was a $1/share[50million shares] then their trade does not effect the purse so for e.g they fall to .85c/share the manager still has $50m 

cheers laurie


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## Nick Radge (31 December 2005)

Do a Google search for Automatic Investment Management or A.I.M as its known. This was a concept created by Robert Lichello back in 1977 and is what Navra appears to be doing to some extent. Lichello wrote a book called, wait for it, "How To Make A Million Dollars - Automatically". If you can get past the name and 90% of the folksy talk in the book you will in fact find an amazing concept. 

I used this concept a few years ago, but made some errors (my mistake, not the method). I have recently started a real time test portfolio (posted elsewhere) and hopefully have eliminated some of my errors of the past. Whilst I have not comitted my own cash to it yet, I will be watching the new refined effort.

Navra seems to have taken the Lichello concept to an extreme. This is ok if you pay next to zero commissions, but Lichello only reviews the stocks monthly or quarterly. Navra seems to do it several times per month. He would most likely still have considerable drag on returns from the turnover.

Anyway, food for thought and if you are serious about "DIY", then investigate A.I.M and forego the management fee's.

Nick


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## Ann (1 January 2006)

Hi Nick,

I just had a _very_ quick look at the concept. I like the fact that it is an automatic response to a given set of figures. What really worries me is the fact that people may be purchasing during the Dispersal Stage [Weinstein Stage 4].

This will only achieve an averaging down situation. In other words...throwing good money after bad.

Am I being unfair? Is this likely to be a risk with this system?

Best
 Ann


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## Nick Radge (2 January 2006)

Hi Ann,
The important element to consider here is to differentiate between trading and investing. This system is an investing method, so runs no more risks than a standard buy & hold portfolio concept. What is required to make this an outperformer is volatility and that is the key ingredient. Without volatility it dies. 

If a stock is declining over a long period, as per your stage 4, then it will have the same risks as buying the stock as a long term investment. However, 2 major differences. Firstly, you do not invest 100% into the initial purchase which in turn means you will outperform a straight buy and hold should the price continue to drop. Secondly, if the stock drops, but does so on high volatility, then the system will trade around that volatility and can in fact be profitable even though the stock is falling.

The method can be tested using a spreadsheet template I have. Feel free email me at nick_radge@reefcap.com and I'll happily forward it on.

Nick


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## Ann (2 January 2006)

Thanks Nick,

I will be interested to look at your spreadsheet.

It will be very difficult to convince me to buy into a stock which has dropped below a critical level of support. I have a fondness for increasing my wealth not looking at a stock and watching my investment diminish. The thought of averaging down a stock price makes me think of the old saying. If you keep averaging down, you will have below average results!.....
.....with appologies to all the 'Value Investors' out there. 

To my mind any stock which is on the downhill run should only be seen as a shorter's plaything. They create plenty of volatility as they sell and buy.

Best
 Ann


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## Nick Radge (2 January 2006)

One doesn't necessarily need to buy a declining stock. The premise behind the system is trading in and out of volatility. Stocks move back and forth which is the *only* given in the market. A sustained uptrend is not a given, nor is a sustained downtrend. Ebb and flow is. So long as there is enough back and forth, then the theory works.


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## Ann (2 January 2006)

I see what you are saying Nick,

With the proper use and experience with  charting and the various indicators which give you a decent indication of a reasonable entry point, one really shouldn't have to buy into a stock with a falling price. Then having bought within a well controlled trading plan, one should at the time of purchase, have placed a stop loss at a given point to protect one's capital.

I have taken a copy of the section in A.I.M  which I  mean about averaging down. I would have thought what is being described is truly an averaging down of a falling stock.

Example 2, Buying:
Portfolio Control = $10,000
Value when next checked = $7500
First add 750 to the $7500 to equal 8250.
Next subtract 8250 from 10,000
which equals = +$1750.
That's how much more stock AIM would want you to buy at that value

Still just looks like throwing good money after bad to me.

Anyway, maybe that is just me...lot's of people seem to love averaging down. 

I wonder how many people value invested in TLS? Uuuurgh  : 

Best
 Ann


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## GreatPig (3 January 2006)

Nick Radge said:
			
		

> This system is an investing method



Although I think could potentially create enough trades, if a reasonable size portfolio was held, that the ATO may consider it a trading business, in which case there'd be no CGT discount.

Cheers,
GP


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## DaleGG (10 January 2006)

Hi

No, the income for 2004 and for 2005 had only a small amount of tax credit attached to it.

Dale



			
				clowboy said:
			
		

> Anyone know if the distributions are tax effective?  Ie are they fully franked?


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## GreatPig (10 January 2006)

Hi Dale,

Welcome to ASF 

Home of the discerning stock ramper 

Cheers,
GP


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## wayneL (30 September 2021)

A little ASF necromancy....

The Robert Lichello AIM (automatic investment management) system inexplicably popped into my mind today.

Just curious if anyone has/is using such a system and how it is going?

I'm expecting the sound of crickets TBH, but thought I'd exhume the stinking carcus of this thread and just see ... Fwiw


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## peter2 (1 October 2021)

Nice exhumation. I remember the system as N.Radge played with it and posted about some of his research on the method (Reefcap). I was a newbie back then. The system intrigued me and I did some basic spreadsheet research also. I couldn't overcome my concerns about buying more stock when the price is going down, then selling when price made new highs. That was long before ETFs became popular. The long term positive bias of the index ETFs would make this system much easier to apply (provided there was enough volatility). Leveraged ETFs should suit this system. [crypto investing?]

Managing the cash component is crucial at the beginning. Very important to not start investing with 100% capital, more like 40-50% to ensure multiple buys at lower prices (average down).


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## peter2 (1 October 2021)

Downloaded an AIM Excel spreadsheet and worked through an example to refresh my mind on the mechanics. 

Used the leveraged ETF - *TQQQ*.  Started with $20K - $10K worth of TQQQ plus $10K cash for ave down buys. 
Start date (18/2/2020), was just before Covid selloff that should suit the AIM approach as it would ave down quickly before the post Covid low rally. AIM strategy applied weekly. 

AIM strategy built $20K to $45,707 over the period. 

Buy and Hold built $20K to $48,926 over the period. 

AIM strategy did not outperform buy&hold over the period 18/2/2020 - 29/9/2021. I think this is due to the lack of significant dips in the bullish rally after the Covid low. The AIM strategy sells small parcels to accumulate cash as prices go higher.


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