# Will China end up owning the World?



## sptrawler (20 October 2015)

It is really hard to see, how China won't end up owning everything.

Most manufacturers have relocated their production base to China, the country is completely controlled by the Government, which directly funds all facets of development.
It is difficult to see how they will fail.IMO

In our capitalist system, funding for development generally has to be raised, by tapping the private investors. So it has to be attractive and has to give a return, not so Chinese State owned companies.

The Chinese trade surplus is immense, so they can fund heaps of takeovers, they just have to wait and pounce.

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/201...eg_4=display_outbrain_ron_image-text_content_

Also Volvo are performing well in the motor racing, who would have thought, boring Volvo group A racing?
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/article...ot-sales-revival-with-return-to-swedish-roots

What happens when they own our mining assets? What do we sell them, when that happens?

It really is getting scary, but there is no obvious way to stop it, they really do have all the cards.

Maybe we can ask the Chinese, how they're going to fund our welfare system.


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## Gringotts Bank (20 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It is really hard to see, how China won't end up owning everything.
> 
> Most manufacturers have relocated their production base to China, the country is completely controlled by the Government, which directly funds all facets of development.
> It is difficult to see how they will fail.IMO
> ...




I don't think there's any great need to worry.  Wealth and power gained through exploitation of the underclass, threats and thought manipulation (propaganda) has a way of tripping itself up.  History tells us that much.

The Party, the officials and the military are terrified of two things - 1) exposure of corrupt practices, therefore they require secrecy and 2) losing control, therefore they have to impose harsher penalties and restrictions on information flow and personal freedoms.  Secrecy and control tactics create limits to growth and expansion.  Cracks will begin to appear at some point.  Probably if or when a market collapse happens.


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## sptrawler (20 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't think there's any great need to worry.  Wealth and power gained through exploitation of the underclass, threats and thought manipulation (propaganda) has a way of tripping itself up.  History tells us that much.




Thanks for the reassuring words, phew I was really worried.

Great plan, they're bound to stuff it up, because we have


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## luutzu (20 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It is really hard to see, how China won't end up owning everything.
> 
> Most manufacturers have relocated their production base to China, the country is completely controlled by the Government, which directly funds all facets of development.
> It is difficult to see how they will fail.IMO
> ...




If the US/West and Russia kick off WW3, China can sit back watch the fireworks then swoop in. Then they'll control the world. Otherwise they'll just own most of Asia and the Pacific.


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## macca (21 October 2015)

Long term, any country that requires the population to work to receive benefits will end up more productive hence richer,  than a country that gives free benefits to many who have no intention of ever working.

I have noticed a distinct lack of interest in going to Russia or China within the refugees of Europe, they don't even want to stay in safe havens, they insist on Germany or the holy grail the UK.

Eventually, the softness and unsustainable welfare system of the western societies will see the downfall of the west and places like China will fill the void by taking over the leadership of the world simply because they are the richest.

Meanwhile, in the western world we have a recession due to the repayments on our loans from China


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## Tisme (21 October 2015)

If the MTTF/MTBF of their goods is any indication of their economy we should have only a couple of years before we can buy back the farm for cheap.


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## luutzu (21 October 2015)

macca said:


> Long term, any country that requires the population to work to receive benefits will end up more productive hence richer,  than a country that gives free benefits to many who have no intention of ever working.
> 
> I have noticed a distinct lack of interest in going to Russia or China within the refugees of Europe, they don't even want to stay in safe havens, they insist on Germany or the holy grail the UK.
> 
> ...




per capita, China is not rich. My figures are outdated but weren't long ago when average income in urban areas was $5/day, in rural maybe $1 or $2. 

I heard from a few economists that swear the US recovery since GFC is mehhh because of its inequality. That the poor work too much for too little, students owing a bunch of debt, households owing a bunch of debt, a few wars here and there... no demand, companies buying back stocks with their cash instead of investing in R&D or building stuff that employ people etc. etc.   Don't hear anything about Mexicans taking jobs away.

Europe has their Austerity don't they? Or their economic crisis all due to refugees?

But yea, let's go be like China so we can rule the world. Go all Jackie Chan and demand our leaders to be tougher on the poor.


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## Gringotts Bank (21 October 2015)

Just watching some of the head honchos in Britain, hosted by the Queen.

Seems like they wanted their own procession of dancing dragons and thousands of ex-pat chinese made to wear "I love china" t-shirts lining the route to the palace.  They don't even realize how ****ed up it is to manipulate thousands of people into doing that!  It's like something that North Korean dude would do.

Most guests at a function like that would be open and pleasant, but not the Chinese.  Body language is very telling.  Watch the video on the news - it is incredibly stiff and awkward.


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## macca (21 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> per capita, China is not rich. My figures are outdated but weren't long ago when average income in urban areas was $5/day, in rural maybe $1 or $2.
> 
> I heard from a few economists that swear the US recovery since GFC is mehhh because of its inequality. That the poor work too much for too little, students owing a bunch of debt, households owing a bunch of debt, a few wars here and there... no demand, companies buying back stocks with their cash instead of investing in R&D or building stuff that employ people etc. etc.   Don't hear anything about Mexicans taking jobs away.
> 
> ...




Nowhere do I mention being tougher on the poor, in fact if the government got rid of some of the bludgers they could raise the tax threshhold and the poor would be better off.

I am taking aim at the fact that many western societies hand out money to people who give nothing in return. There is no reason why a fit, able bodied person should be on the dole for decades and give back nothing to the people who pay him/her.

There are many jobs that could be done by the unemployed that would improve society in general. To have some one on the Disability pension who is 28, strong and robust yet won't do a thing to "give something back" is like a cancer on society.

Not to mention those who collect the dole or DSP yet work cash in hand, why should honest people pay extra taxes to feed these bludgers ? A 15% disability is no reason to sit on your butt for the rest of your life, I know people with 60% mental disabilities and their goal in life is to get a job !! 

I agree that per capita China is not the wealthiest country in the world but they sure have a lot of overseas assets and they don't owe other countries money so they can wield a might big stick internationally even if the peasants are battling


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## Tisme (21 October 2015)

macca said:


> I agree that per capita China is not the wealthiest country in the world but they sure have a lot of overseas assets and *they don't owe other countries money* so they can wield a might big stick internationally even if the peasants are battling




They don't?


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## luutzu (21 October 2015)

macca said:


> Nowhere do I mention being tougher on the poor, in fact if the government got rid of some of the bludgers they could raise the tax threshhold and the poor would be better off.
> 
> I am taking aim at the fact that many western societies hand out money to people who give nothing in return. There is no reason why a fit, able bodied person should be on the dole for decades and give back nothing to the people who pay him/her.
> 
> ...




I agree, if they are able-bodied but claim welfare while work for cash and similar scams... then that shouldn't be allowed. And it's not allowed... increase surveilance or other measures if we want but you seem to suggest that refugees and those on the dole or welfare are ruining countries. 

Before making claims with big consequences like that, maybe provide facts. How many are on the dole who cheats; how many just refused to look for work when work's aplenty etc. etc. 

So yes, I agree that cheats and those who abuse the system shouldn't be tolerated; Yes, we should find ways to not have people so reliance on these safety net... But the solution I'm hearing is we ought to cut it all; or such generosity is what ruin economies and countries like China are getting rich because they have no welfare system.

---

Such narratives are false, have no basis in fact, and part of some idiotic neo-con plan to get rid of the few things that make Western democracies the richest and most equitable in the history of the world after WW2 and up to about the 1980s under Reagan and Thatcher.

State assets like QR/Aurizon, CBA, power and utilities, CSL etc. etc... these were taxpayer funded and have been privatised so that we all get rich owning what we already owned and now individually pay through the nose for the priviledge... 

Free "trade" agreements, defunded education and training institutes... all did a bang up job for the working class. Then once they're stuffed and in need of some assistance, well it's all their fault the economy is so stuffed... let's sell some more assets and raise consumption tax shall we?


The kind of brainwashing we're being done by is just incredible. Would make the Kim the Third of NKorea wet his pants at such bs.

We're made to believe that an entire sub-continent and all its people are evil and terrorists, then we sit and won't mind so much that their country and people are being splattered all over the place. Then those millions who flee to neighbouring refugee camps, spending years and decade in tents and suffer god knows what... those we don't know and don't care... the few that spill over to "our" sphere we paint as economic migrants, greedy little terrorists who's coming to steal our jobs and ruin our cities and blow us up one day. 

Then to our own... those society left behind, who lost hope and just give up... well they're lazy parasites who are either Muslims or Aborigines or some ethnic migrants or if White, then just bogans and druggies... they're all ruin our economy and we're about to be bought off by the Chinese who know how to make their country rich and great by... by? 


Got to know when you're being played.

It's a bit short sighted to think that the days of Kings and Lords were the good old days where nations are strong and tough and rich. The future we don't know, the past has been written down though.


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2015)

> The number of Australians on welfare payments is increasing with the number of people on Newstart for more than 12 months at its highest level ever.
> 
> Figures released by the Department of Social Services (DSS) show that at the end of 2014, 527,318 had been receiving the Newstart Allowance for at least one year, an increase of almost 13 per cent on the previous year.
> 
> ...




Hard to tell whether this is the result of "bludging" or just a slowing economy, but I think it's only going to get worse if we allow cheap Chinese goods to flood the market and put what's left of our struggling industries on the scrapheap, plus keeping up our migrant intake for totally unjustified reasons imo.

I agree with your statements about selling off public assets like CBA, CSL. I'm afraid the CSIRO is our last remaining public asset of any value and there are hounds baying for that to be sold off too.


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## macca (21 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> They don't?




Sorry, poorly worded by me, Yes they do owe money but as far as I can see they seem to be heading in a better direction than most western countries.

The latest numbers I can find show they hold almost $4 trillion USD in foreign reserves more than they owe, which is about 20 times more than they had 20 years ago. (but off a very low base)

Incidently, this is 3 times more than any other country, seems to me that if they continue doing what they are doing and western society continues borrowing like it has been, then China will be owed that much money they may never be paid.

Or they seek favourable terms for exports or purchases in other lands, not a good place for the west to be in and it is getting worse by the year, so many countries are running deficits, money has to come from somewhere.


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## Macquack (21 October 2015)

macca said:


> Or they seek favourable terms for exports or purchases in other lands, not a good place for the west to be in and it is getting worse by the year, so many countries are running deficits, *money has to come from somewhere*.




Money is generally created out of "thin air". Call it "credit creation", "quantitative easing", what ever you like. I am extremely worried about a simple concept, is China expanding their "money supply" faster than we are?


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2015)

Macquack said:


> Money is generally created out of "thin air". Call it "credit creation", "quantitative easing", what ever you like. I am extremely worried about a simple concept, is China expanding their "money supply" faster than we are?




China manipulates their exchange rates to keep their currency low against competitors and therefore keep their export prices low.


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## macca (21 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Hard to tell whether this is the result of "bludging" or just a slowing economy, but I think it's only going to get worse if we allow cheap Chinese goods to flood the market and put what's left of our struggling industries on the scrapheap, plus keeping up our migrant intake for totally unjustified reasons imo.
> 
> I agree with your statements about selling off public assets like CBA, CSL. I'm afraid the CSIRO is our last remaining public asset of any value and there are hounds baying for that to be sold off too.




I guess we will never know whether it is right or wrong to sell off public assets, a lot of this goes back to the industries that had very strong unions and they were too successful at getting higher conditions for their members. 

Eventually they priced themselves out of the market, eg: The local newspaper reported that here in NSW the power unions had achieved conditions for their workers where labourers were getting $80kpa plus 25% superannuation. The contractors working alongside them were getting $60k and normal super, no one from the union or any employee disagreed with the figures. 

It does make it hard to win sympathy from the public when they perceive the workers to be "overpaid" as per the letters to the editor about the power company selloff.

Personally, I think utilities should come from a state owned supplier but corporatised so that it is self funding and run as a business, with people being accountable and pay rates and conditions similar to free enterprise businesses.  

I also do not think that Governments should levy the state run utility, if they want to raise more taxes they should do it upfront, not levy the utility then expect to cover it by increasing the cost of power to everyone. Seems to me to be a very poor way to increase govt revenue.

Looking at the  sovereign funds around the world one can't help but ask if they can do it why can't we ? We have sold off some great businesses over the years, if we had corporatised them and kept them I do think we would be better off, one thing I don't agree with is the concept of selling half or a third, I don't understand that at all.


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## Gringotts Bank (21 October 2015)

This sort of **** going on in Melbourne infuriates me.  I don't live in such a salubrious suburb as Toorak, but the way these Chinese come in and do this is just so goddamn offensive.  A magnificent old home levelled.  They have no concept of architectural beauty, nor appreciation of nature.  You can bet some f-ugly concrete monstronsity will replace it, housed by people who don't have any interest in speaking English or integrating into Aussie culture.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/realest...k=167f3b762be9f7558a42afb811def7b4-1445423830

How can this do anything but create tension?  I wouldn't dream of going to another country and behaving like that (not that I'll ever have $20 mill spare).  It's so incredibly crass and insensitive.


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## luutzu (21 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> This sort of **** going on in Melbourne infuriates me.  I don't live in such a salubrious suburb as Toorak, but the way these Chinese come in and do this is just so goddamn offensive.  A magnificent old home levelled.  They have no concept of beauty, nor appreciation of nature.  You can bet some f-ugly concrete monstronsity will replace it, housed by people who don't have any interest in speaking English or integrating into Aussie culture.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/realest...k=167f3b762be9f7558a42afb811def7b4-1445423830




That's messed up. Doesn't fit with their Feng Shui?

So rest assured, China won't be taking over the world with these kind of idiots and their fathers running the place.


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2015)

I have relatives living in Balwyn VIC, and the number of drab but palatial painted masonry edifices in that area occupied usually by ONE Chinese student driving a Mercedes is astounding.

One guy built a six car underground carpark under his house. It's taking the price of property outside the realm of the average Aussie and destrying the character of the area.


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## sptrawler (21 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I have relatives living in Balwyn VIC, and the number of drab but palatial painted masonry edifices in that area occupied usually by ONE Chinese student driving a Mercedes is astounding.
> 
> One guy built a six car underground carpark under his house. It's taking the price of property outside the realm of the average Aussie and destrying the character of the area.




Your relatives, will probably end up working for the Chinese kid driving the Merc, just give it time.

We wanted great wages, we purchased cheap overseas goods, we brought about our own demise.

Greed is good, untill it becomes the cancer that destroys the dream.

The Chinese, probably due to a Government that has complete control, is escalating their industrialisation at an astonishing rate.

They really do seem to be controlling the expansion of their economy well, there are massive apartment buildings in clusters, some say they are random I think they are planned.
If China moves from small farming villages to broad acre farming, the high density accomodation makes sense.


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## luutzu (21 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I have relatives living in Balwyn VIC, and the number of drab but palatial painted masonry edifices in that area occupied usually by ONE Chinese student driving a Mercedes is astounding.
> 
> One guy built a six car underground carpark under his house. It's taking the price of property outside the realm of the average Aussie and destrying the character of the area.




To be fair, I was browsing domain.com at houses and came across this ugly old house I thought has a nice lawn, good parcel but the building needed some improvement. Turns out it belong to the Fairfax... going for $100M+?? 

So if there's some 6 zeroes behind my current balance, might do something stupid.. maybe.


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## luutzu (21 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Your relatives, will probably end up working for the Chinese kid driving the Merc, just give it time.
> 
> We wanted great wages, we purchased cheap overseas goods, we brought about our own demise.
> 
> ...




Not that kind of Chinese kid though 

We shouldn't worry about these Chinese wasting money like that. They won't go anywhere.

It's the Chinese that doesn't spend on houses but ammunition and island engineering that we ought to worry about.

No state ever buy the world - they fight wars and kill for it, fair and square.


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## Tink (22 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> This sort of **** going on in Melbourne infuriates me.  I don't live in such a salubrious suburb as Toorak, but the way these Chinese come in and do this is just so goddamn offensive.  A magnificent old home levelled.  They have no concept of architectural beauty, nor appreciation of nature.  You can bet some f-ugly concrete monstronsity will replace it, housed by people who don't have any interest in speaking English or integrating into Aussie culture.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/realest...k=167f3b762be9f7558a42afb811def7b4-1445423830
> 
> How can this do anything but create tension?  I wouldn't dream of going to another country and behaving like that (not that I'll ever have $20 mill spare).  It's so incredibly crass and insensitive.




Melbourne is already becoming like North Korea, as I have stated in my posts with this Labor/Greens Govt, in more ways than one.

I agree, GB, it is sad seeing these historical buildings go.


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## Tisme (22 October 2015)

Tink said:


> Melbourne is already becoming like North Korea, as I have stated in my posts with this Labor/Greens Govt, in more ways than one.
> 
> I agree, GB, it is sad seeing these historical buildings go.





The people selling them for maximum financial gain versus heritage value have a major part in the demise too.


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## SirRumpole (22 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Your relatives, will probably end up working for the Chinese kid driving the Merc, just give it time.




Maybe, maybe not. 

The question is the investor/homebuyer balance in the housing market and the tax and investment rules that determine that balance and what is in the national interest.

It surely must be in the national interest that as many people as possible own their own homes and have an asset that they can reverse mortgage or sell and downsize to a smaller property to finance their retirement.

Too many investors mean too much money going to a small number of people, with a large number of people paying rent and therefore having to rely on the pension in their retirement.

The national interest in this issue is pretty clear to me and the tax and investment laws should reflect that.


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## sptrawler (22 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> The question is the investor/homebuyer balance in the housing market and the tax and investment rules that determine that balance and what is in the national interest.
> 
> ...




The displacement of 'white' Australians is IMO inevitable, we have a falling birthrate and an ageing population.

Whether we like it or not, people will come here to displace us, it is just a matter of who. 
China currently have the momentum, with financial means and a population willing to move to build a life, somewhat like our forefathers. 
Time will tell, if they fall into the same affluence trap, we have.


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## luutzu (22 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The displacement of 'white' Australians is IMO inevitable, we have a falling birthrate and an ageing population.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, people will come here to displace us, it is just a matter of who.
> China currently have the momentum, with financial means and a population willing to move to build a life, somewhat like our forefathers.
> Time will tell, if they fall into the same affluence trap, we have.




It would look bad for White Australians, but I wouldn't worry about it if I was White. 

The coloured folks who want to get anywhere, rise any place will have already been white washed that they're more White than the White guys   What the Americans call a Banana, or an Oreo. That's not a racist thing, it's just what happen when you got a dominant ethnic group and many minor ones.

Take a look at Obama. You would think the African Americans would be much better off under his admin... nope. They all actually got worst... Not because he intentionally do it to them, just it's what you do to serve those with real power.

Or take China... When the Manchurian (those with the pony tail) took over the Han majority Ming, they established the Qing Dynasty and beside the half-shaven head for male with a pony tail attached, some superficial dress code... the Han were so many that they absorbed the Manchurian rulers.

Wait, declining birthrate you were saying...      Better get started... Would be a good excuse to get some from the missus - for national interests and the Anglo Austrlaia


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## Tisme (22 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> It would look bad for White Australians, but I wouldn't worry about it if I was White.
> 
> The coloured folks who want to get anywhere, rise any place will have already been white washed that they're more White than the White guys   What the Americans call a Banana, or an Oreo.




Yeah the Person of Colour (POC) insults.

One has to wonder why, in the US particularly, advanced society is so polarised into ethnic tribes and the need for the tribes to degrade those who want to adopt better lifestyle. The colour on the outside, white on the inside slight is also testament to ill will many have towards whitey.

Coconut, Oreo, Banana, Apples, etc are evidence of people who won't make it in their own tribe let alone in the wider community. It's predicated on the need to be stereotypes, misplaced pride, etc ... a sell out and subservience to skin colour prejudice.


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## SirRumpole (22 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah the Person of Colour (POC) insults.
> 
> One has to wonder why, in the US particularly, advanced society is so polarised into ethnic tribes and the need for the tribes to degrade those who want to adopt better lifestyle. The colour on the outside, white on the inside slight is also testament to ill will many have towards whitey.
> 
> Coconut, Oreo, Banana, Apples, etc are evidence of people who won't make it in their own tribe let alone in the wider community. It's predicated on the need to be stereotypes, misplaced pride, etc ... a sell out and subservience to skin colour prejudice.




Makes me wonder why Michael Jackson tried so hard to be white considering all the very successful black entertainers.


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## luutzu (22 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah the Person of Colour (POC) insults.
> 
> One has to wonder why, in the US particularly, advanced society is so polarised into ethnic tribes and the need for the tribes to degrade those who want to adopt better lifestyle. The colour on the outside, white on the inside slight is also testament to ill will many have towards whitey.
> 
> Coconut, Oreo, Banana, Apples, etc are evidence of people who won't make it in their own tribe let alone in the wider community. It's predicated on the need to be stereotypes, misplaced pride, etc ... a sell out and subservience to skin colour prejudice.




I have no ill will towards Whitey  
Learnt that it's best to see all people as the same, and distrust all of them all equally   Maybe add a notch for the Irish, haha

Still, I named the kids with VNese name though. Not as some rebellious or "keep the culture" stuff, just it gives better meaning for the missus and I. That and it's challenge to have a Viet name that has good meaning and doesn't sound all funny when spoken in English. That's why we're stopping at 3 - was struggling to come up with a third name. Can't go with Bich, or Duc, or Quach, haha... add my surname to the mix and it's a comedy.


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## luutzu (22 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Makes me wonder why Michael Jackson tried so hard to be white considering all the very successful black entertainers.




That guy got a lot of issues. An incredible talent though.


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## Gringotts Bank (23 October 2015)

I've noticed there's quite a difference between Hong Kongers and mainlanders.  I have worked with a few HKers and Malaysian Chinese and found them quite decent.

I spoke to an Chinese expat last year; she was a nurse.  I asked what life was like back in the mainland and she gave me three examples (she wasn't a big wrap for her homeland, but seemed more sad than angry).  The first was a friend's father who was a primary school teacher.  He wanted to change locations and work at a school closer to home.  The principle of the school insisted he pay a sizable "fee" to do so, otherwise his reference would not be very good.  The second related to the tax system, wherein the amount of tax one paid was dependant on how well you knew the local tax man.  The third related to a birthday party she attended (middle uppper class).  The "done thing" is to bring cash, and lots of it.  She was frowned upon and excluded because she brought the birthday girl a small gift (no cash).  She said this was becoming quite common in certain circles.

So anyway, I find this all quite sad because I like Aussie cultrue and can see the writing on the wall.  People don't seem to notice change, or perhaps they don't mind it.  The *sheer numbers* are absolutely staggering, and what sort of sour, po-faced culture are they pushing?  Just have a little drive around Doncaster, Balwyn, Box Hill, Fairlfield, Hawthorn, Carlton and the city centre.  We get 100,000 new settlers in Melbourne every year and most of them seem to be Chinese.  

Wouldn't immigration be better balanced if we had roughly equal numbers from different parts of thr world?  I don't think I'll want to stay in Melbourne much more than 5 years.  

Change is hard, but I guess that's life isn't it?  Move on... or get pushed out, as the case may be.


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## poverty (23 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> So anyway, I find this all quite sad because I like Aussie cultrue and can see the writing on the wall.  People don't seem to notice change, or perhaps they don't mind it.  The *sheer numbers* are absolutely staggering, and what sort of sour, po-faced culture are they pushing?  Just have a little drive around Doncaster, Balwyn, Box Hill, Fairlfield, Hawthorn, Carlton and the city centre.  We get 100,000 new settlers in Melbourne every year and most of them seem to be Chinese.




I like to avoid Melbourne and Sydney, there's still plenty of nice towns in Australia that are 95%+ white.  In the long-term we are all stuffed, but I don't plan on living forever.


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## Gringotts Bank (23 October 2015)

poverty said:


> I like to avoid Melbourne and Sydney, there's still plenty of nice towns in Australia that are 95%+ white.  In the long-term we are all stuffed, but I don't plan on living forever.




Thanks pov.  I've had a girfriend who was 1/4 Chinese.  And I had a buddy at school who was Malaysian Chinese.  What I object to is Australia becoming an outpost of *one *foriegn country, particulalry when this *one *country has such a terrible record for human rights, looking after the environment and using standover/manipulation tactics on its own people.  And corruption is rife there as I explained, so I'm just saying I don't want those attributes here.  It's in the [mainland] culture.


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## Tisme (23 October 2015)

poverty said:


> I like to avoid Melbourne and Sydney, there's still plenty of nice towns in Australia that are 95%+ white.  In the long-term we are all stuffed, but I don't plan on living forever.





  You using an overcast reel or an egg beater?


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## CanOz (23 October 2015)

poverty said:


> I like to avoid Melbourne and Sydney, there's still plenty of nice towns in Australia that are 95%+ white.  In the long-term we are all stuffed, but I don't plan on living forever.




That's it, if you don't like multiculturalism, head to the country towns, the mainlanders hate the 'country' towns...


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## luutzu (23 October 2015)

poverty said:


> I like to avoid Melbourne and Sydney, there's still plenty of nice towns in Australia that are 95%+ white.  In the long-term we are all stuffed, but I don't plan on living forever.




Who are the other 5%?


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## Tisme (23 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Who are the other 5%?




You could probably narrow that down to within the 30% (6 millions) of Australians who were born overseas.

Of course there are whiteys and there are whiteys ..... the real whiteys in Oz come from Northern Europe extraction, the rest are just lighter shades of black ......

If you want an argument take it up with Eric:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/senator-eric-abetz-drops-racist-slur-on-radio-while-defending-opposition-to-gay-marriage-20151022-gkg7y9.html


----------



## luutzu (23 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> You could probably narrow that down to within the 30% (6 millions) of Australians who were born overseas.
> 
> Of course there are whiteys and there are whiteys ..... the real whiteys in Oz come from Northern Europe extraction, the rest are just lighter shades of black ......
> 
> ...




There are also Australia-born Australians, then there are the real Australia-born Australian too aren't there?

I like country Australia. People actually wave at you as they drive pass. I thought the old man giving us a two finger wave was giving the finger first time I saw it.


----------



## Macquack (23 October 2015)

Definition of a "local", someone who has been here one "day" longer than you.

I love this definition. That would make Aboriginals the only true "Australians", because nobody can count past (give or take) 40,000 years.

I must be a "true" whitey because I burn like sh*t in the sun. Will probably die of skin cancer and should have stayed in the northern hemisphere (except I was born here). I don't have a lot of answers.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 October 2015)

Macquack said:


> Definition of a "local", someone who has been here one "day" longer than you.
> 
> I love this definition. That would make Aboriginals the only true "Australians", because nobody can count past (give or take) 40,000 years.
> 
> I must be a "true" whitey because I burn like sh*t in the sun. Will probably die of skin cancer and should have stayed in the northern hemisphere (except I was born here). I don't have a lot of answers.




Country towns are not good places if you want to be treated as a local unless you are born there. 

If you move up from the big smoke you are treated with suspicion for about 20 years until they finally decide they aren't going to get rid of you so they may as well be decent to you.


----------



## poverty (23 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Country towns are not good places if you want to be treated as a local unless you are born there.
> 
> If you move up from the big smoke you are treated with suspicion for about 20 years until they finally decide they aren't going to get rid of you so they may as well be decent to you.




Getting the standoffish treatment from the locals is one thing - getting culturally enriched by Jamal and Tyrone is something else.


----------



## Macquack (23 October 2015)

poverty said:


> Getting the standoffish treatment from the locals is one thing - getting culturally enriched by Jamal and Tyrone is something else.




I am not sure what you are on about? But if I guess right? What is the difference anyway?


----------



## luutzu (23 October 2015)

Macquack said:


> Definition of a "local", someone who has been here one "day" longer than you.
> 
> I love this definition. That would make Aboriginals the only true "Australians", because nobody can count past (give or take) 40,000 years.
> 
> I must be a "true" whitey because I burn like sh*t in the sun. Will probably die of skin cancer and should have stayed in the northern hemisphere (except I was born here). I don't have a lot of answers.





There's way too many brown people where I live so now and then when we go to the city's tourist attractions a bit surprised at how white some people can be. I saw this lady and thought, man she's really pale hope she's alright... then after few more the light bulb flicked on that wait... 



Funny video


----------



## luutzu (23 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Country towns are not good places if you want to be treated as a local unless you are born there.
> 
> If you move up from the big smoke you are treated with suspicion for about 20 years until they finally decide they aren't going to get rid of you so they may as well be decent to you.




There goes my retirement plan. 

well, high fences and big wide lawn makes good neighbours


----------



## Bill M (24 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> That's it, if you don't like multiculturalism, head to the country towns, the mainlanders hate the 'country' towns...




That's exactly right and why wouldn't they? Where I live is like a country town, none of the mainlanders are interested in living here. Terrible transport, not near railways lines, no restaurants within walking distance, no clubs within walking distance, petrol is more expensive, takes 3 hours to get to the airport etc. 

I like the city too, prefer it much more than living up here, I don't blame them for wanting to buy where the action and facilities are. Oh and I forgot to mention plenty of white red necks up this way, hooning in their cars, yelling out to you from their cars when you are walking along the street, Friday night drunks returning home from the pub pissing on your shrubs and destroying "For Sale" signs in the street, throwing empty beer bottles on to your front lawn..........Arrrhh yes Australian culture. Give me a city apartment with civilised people any day.


----------



## Bill M (24 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> There's way too many brown people where I live so now and then when we go to the city's tourist attractions a bit surprised at how white some people can be. I saw this lady and thought, man she's really pale hope she's alright... then after few more the light bulb flicked on that wait...
> 
> 
> 
> Funny video





That's a funny video but the sad part is that the guy still didn't realise what a jerk he had been after it all, some people will never learn.


----------



## CanOz (24 October 2015)

Bill M said:


> That's exactly right and why wouldn't they? Where I live is like a country town, none of the mainlanders are interested in living here. Terrible transport, not near railways lines, no restaurants within walking distance, no clubs within walking distance, petrol is more expensive, takes 3 hours to get to the airport etc.
> 
> I like the city too, prefer it much more than living up here, I don't blame them for wanting to buy where the action and facilities are. Oh and I forgot to mention plenty of white red necks up this way, hooning in their cars, yelling out to you from their cars when you are walking along the street, Friday night drunks returning home from the pub pissing on your shrubs and destroying "For Sale" signs in the street, throwing empty beer bottles on to your front lawn..........Arrrhh yes Australian culture. Give me a city apartment with civilised people any day.




Yikes, that's not at all my experience with country Australia. I spent 9 years in Ballarat and 3 in Penola, near the Coonawarra. Ballarat was a great place to live and work but Penola was just awesome. Surrounded by vineyards and wineries and some great restaurants....four seasons and tons of red gum to burn....heaven.


----------



## Bill M (24 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> Yikes, that's not at all my experience with country Australia. I spent 9 years in Ballarat and 3 in Penola, near the Coonawarra. Ballarat was a great place to live and work but Penola was just awesome. Surrounded by vineyards and wineries and some great restaurants....four seasons and tons of red gum to burn....heaven.




No wineries around here, got to go to the Hunter for that. Talk about picking a cupla nice places. Was your Chinese wife with you at the time? If she was, did she like it?


----------



## qldfrog (24 October 2015)

Bill M said:


> That's exactly right and why wouldn't they? Where I live is like a country town, none of the mainlanders are interested in living here. petrol is more expensive, takes 3 hours to get to the airport etc.
> 
> I like the city too, prefer it much more than living up here, I don't blame them for wanting to buy where the action and facilities are. Oh and I forgot to mention plenty of white red necks up this way, hooning in their cars, yelling out to you from their cars when you are walking along the street, Friday night drunks returning home from the pub pissing on your shrubs and destroying "For Sale" signs in the street, throwing empty beer bottles on to your front lawn..........Arrrhh yes Australian culture. Give me a city apartment with civilised people any day.



if as 90% of australians, you end up in the suburbs:
"Terrible transport, not near railways lines, no restaurants within walking distance, no clubs within walking distance, "
so between suburb and country I prefer country but why on hell would you be in the country and in the actual town: all disadvantages, no adventage, just get a small farmlet a few km away and you are leaving the dream IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (24 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> just get a small farmlet a few km away and you are leaving the dream IMO





How good it is !


----------



## CanOz (24 October 2015)

Bill M said:


> No wineries around here, got to go to the Hunter for that. Talk about picking a cupla nice places. Was your Chinese wife with you at the time? If she was, did she like it?





No Bill, it was before I moved to China and met her. I've managed to get her to like Brisbane though, she was bent on moving to Sydney. She actually lived in Warrnambool for years before she got her citizens too, but shanghai has turned her into a big city girl....


----------



## Bill M (24 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> if as 90% of australians, you end up in the suburbs:
> "Terrible transport, not near railways lines, no restaurants within walking distance, no clubs within walking distance, "
> so between suburb and country I prefer country but why on hell would you be in the country and in the actual town: all disadvantages, no adventage, just get a small farmlet a few km away and you are leaving the dream IMO




Yeah ok, settle down, I realise I've made a balls up coming up here. I actually agonise over where I really want to live. The choice comes down the small farmlet or back in the big smoke with everything at the door, still looking and thinking it all through. As I get older and older I am leaning towards a nice, safe apartment in town.

OK, back to the Chinese, I've met a few and lived amongst them in Sydney. They like being in suburbs that have good transport, Ashfield, Chatswood and the City come to mind. Funny, ACDC's Angus who wears the school uniform (Ashfield High uniform that is) on stage actually came from Ashfield, now it is 90% Chinese. But hey it is the best serviced railway station in Sydney. They like living in safe apartment blocks and not to far from anywhere. Plus they do like to be near friends, and talk about food, Ashfield is well catered for.

By the way, there are 1,000's of Aussies living overseas, particularly in Asia. They do exactly the same there as what Chinese do here. That is, buy a condo, live in areas predominantly where there are many other foreigners, buy businesses if they really want to, eat Aussie/American/English style food and do not speak the local language. We are all just people doing what we want to within the local laws. Nothing more, nothing less, if someone doesn't like those laws then they should take that up with their respective governments.


----------



## qldfrog (25 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> How good it is !



btw *Living *the dream, not leaving it !!!
my mistake


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> if as 90% of australians, you end up in the suburbs:
> "Terrible transport, not near railways lines, no restaurants within walking distance, no clubs within walking distance, "
> so between suburb and country I prefer country but why on hell would you be in the country and in the actual town: all disadvantages, no adventage, just get a small farmlet a few km away and you are leaving the dream IMO




What's a farmlet? Just a few fruit trees, maybe a chicken or two?

Do people in the country have to kill their own meal? There's an IGA in each town right?


----------



## CanOz (25 October 2015)

Great post Bill...

Shanghai's expatriate community is just as you say, monolingual and self associated.


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

Bill M said:


> That's a funny video but the sad part is that the guy still didn't realise what a jerk he had been after it all, some people will never learn.




I think it sometime surprises people that Australia, US, Canada and similar countries were not native European countries. Guess they don't teach that kind of stuff at school.

All countries and all imperial power does it though. China still paint itself as victims when before Europeans and Japan happen.. .ahem...


----------



## SirRumpole (25 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> btw *Living *the dream, not leaving it !!!
> my mistake




Not my mistake ! 

I bought 40 acres outside a major regional centre 20 years ago and it's been fantastic.

The neighbor's sheep graze on my paddocks, there is no noise, pollution or objectionable neighbors, little crime and there are supermarkets within 10 minutes etc.

Downside is the social life, there isn't much to do except go to the pub and I suppose some people could find country life boring and uninspiring if they are gregarians. 

These are the tradeoffs we make for a quiet life.


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Not my mistake !
> 
> I bought 40 acres outside a major regional centre 20 years ago and it's been fantastic.
> 
> ...




So how are the lawns mowed? Do you fenced off a certain area around the house and get a few goats or cows for the rest? Or let the neighbour's stock feed off them?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> So how are the lawns mowed? Do you fenced off a certain area around the house and get a few goats or cows for the rest? Or let the neighbour's stock feed off them?




A small amount of lawn around the house is fenced off and mowed with a ride on, the sheep have access to the rest and keep it chewed down.


----------



## qldfrog (25 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Not my mistake !
> 
> I bought 40 acres outside a major regional centre 20 years ago and it's been fantastic.
> 
> .



Same here but I nearly find my 42 acres too small..Probably too near from the big smoke to be at its best, but beat the suburbs by a mile...


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> A small amount of lawn around the house is fenced off and mowed with a ride on, the sheep have access to the rest and keep it chewed down.




Awesome. 
Maybe another 10 years and get ourselves a 40 acre. Weed should be legalised by then too


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Same here but I nearly find my 42 acres too small..Probably too near from the big smoke to be at its best, but beat the suburbs by a mile...




What are you not growing on there that it's too small?


----------



## qldfrog (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> What are you not growing on there that it's too small?



the distance buffer with barking dogs, crying kids and true blue aussies entertaining.
I need a few km radius!!!!


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> the distance buffer with barking dogs, crying kids and true blue aussies entertaining.
> I need a few km radius!!!!




Man you're spoilt 

My neighbours are only a couple metre away, sometime they're right on their fence smoking or BBQ each week right next to the window. Have to close the entire side windows.

The other neighbour's kid got a sport car complete with sport exhaust, and also a motobike he doesn't use but once a week switch it on for a few minutes at 8 or 9PM... just because he can. Add the big carport they have and concrete all round really add to the surround sound effect. 

But then we got a couple dogs that bark at everything so that kind of even it out by their book.


----------



## poverty (27 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Man you're spoilt
> 
> My neighbours are only a couple metre away, sometime they're right on their fence smoking or BBQ each week right next to the window. Have to close the entire side windows.
> 
> ...




I think I'd rather listen to the motorbike for a few minutes than dogs that bark day and night.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Man you're spoilt
> 
> 
> 
> But then we got a couple dogs that bark at everything so that kind of even it out by their book.




and you wonder why your neighbours make the noises and have the activities they do?


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> and you wonder why your neighbours make the noises and have the activities they do?




Yea I'm with you guys. Annoy the heck out of us too 

Dont mind the sport car, bring back the good old days.. but not so good when you're putting your few months old to sleep.


----------



## dutchie (28 October 2015)

The hypocritical Chinese are at it again.

China expresses anger at US warship entering South China Sea, sends own destroyers in response

http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...yers-in-response/story-fnpjxnlk-1227584826436

What about China building islands in the first place. Flexing their economic power.

China cares about China and nothing else, they are not a good world citizen.

Good on the USA telling them to get nicked (fu...d).


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> What about China building islands in the first place. .




Drilling platforms?


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Drilling platforms?




These are sand islands, just popped up in the middle of nowhere in an area closer to a dozen other countries than bloody China (Spratley's). Even my wife couldn't believe it when i showed her on the map yesty....crazy stuff. The international community won't put up with this bullsh*t:frown:...Agree, good on the US!


----------



## sinner (28 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> The hypocritical Chinese are at it again.
> 
> China expresses anger at US warship entering South China Sea, sends own destroyers in response
> 
> ...




lol. While I don't really condone the expansionist Chinese island building, let's be honest here, the US is in those waters protecting US interests and those of their satellites, hypocritical for them to act like they have any sort of moral high ground or that this is is merely them acting as the benevolent World Police.

As usual, students of history will be able to evaluate recent developments through the correct contextual lens, while others just lap up whatever crap the media is feeding on any given day.

Do yourself a favour and don't let yourself get whipped into a frenzy, think critically for yourself.


----------



## bellenuit (28 October 2015)

sinner said:


> As usual, students of history will be able to evaluate recent developments through the correct contextual lens.




I presume you mean "preferred" contextual lens, as I am unaware of a consensus among serious historians on any geopolitical issue, thus proving that everything is viewed through the preferred filters of the viewer.


----------



## sinner (28 October 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I presume you mean "preferred" contextual lens, as I am unaware of a consensus among serious historians on any geopolitical issue, thus proving that everything is viewed through the preferred filters of the viewer.




I mean nothing of the sort. Start here and work your way through the references, assuming you actually care about the topic and not merely bringing up some trite point about how it's all relative or whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea


----------



## SirRumpole (28 October 2015)

International waters are waters that are internationally recognised as belonging to no one and therefore free to be travelled through by any nation (military) or civilian vessel.

If the US warship kept to international waters then they had every right to be there, regardless of what China says about these islands "belonging" to them.

The less military vessels there are in any part of the world, the better, but if China acts provocatively like they have with these islands then the US should be able to redress the balance of power.


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2015)

sinner said:


> lol. While I don't really condone the expansionist Chinese island building, let's be honest here, the US is in those waters protecting US interests and those of their satellites, hypocritical for them to act like they have any sort of moral high ground or that this is is merely them acting as the benevolent World Police.
> 
> As usual, students of history will be able to evaluate recent developments through the correct contextual lens, while others just lap up whatever crap the media is feeding on any given day.
> 
> Do yourself a favour and don't let yourself get whipped into a frenzy, think critically for yourself.




If we were to be invaded, I think I 'd prefer the USA doing it.


----------



## luutzu (28 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> If we were to be invaded, I think I 'd prefer the USA doing it.




Yea I know. No need to learn a new language or how to use chopsticks.


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Yea I know. No need to learn a new language or how to use chopsticks.




Or plant rice, drone work on a production line, inhaling unmitigated pollution, eating pets, looking after the parents like for ever .....


----------



## SirRumpole (28 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Or plant rice, drone work on a production line, inhaling unmitigated pollution, eating pets, looking after the parents like for ever .....




Or learning to like cr@p TV


----------



## bellenuit (28 October 2015)

sinner said:


> I mean nothing of the sort. Start here and work your way through the references, assuming you actually care about the topic and not merely bringing up some trite point about how it's all relative or whatever.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea




Putting words in my mouth that I did not use. Again, whether we like it or not, history is assessed according to the biases of the assessor. If you assume your viewing lens is the correct and only lens, you are aligning yourself with the self righteous bigots that are the cause of so much problems in the world today. However, as soon as you come to the realisation that your views, even though you hold them as correct, may not in fact be correct but are a reflection of your personal biases, then you are in a position to start learning and becoming more informed. A bit of humility in your responses would go a long way.


----------



## minwa (28 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> inhaling unmitigated pollution




That's funny, Australians pollute way more per capita than any Asian country (or almost any other country in the world) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...er_capita#/media/File:GHG_per_capita_2005.png

Should we have more right to pollute per person and blame others for polluting simply because they have more population ?

Also if we don't export minerals to others for them to "pollute", we will drop to the bottom of first world country or even into seccond world.

We make money selling fuels to pollution, while polluting the most per capita, I actually think we are the real "bad guys" to pollution. Not that I mind - survival of the richest is my motto, just that I think we shouldn't be pointing fingers.


----------



## luutzu (29 October 2015)

minwa said:


> That's funny, Australians pollute way more per capita than any Asian country (or almost any other country in the world) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...er_capita#/media/File:GHG_per_capita_2005.png
> 
> Should we have more right to pollute per person and blame others for polluting simply because they have more population ?
> 
> ...




Saw headline that China is leading the way in GreenTech - particularly solar. If true, it's about time.

They're supposed to skip a couple of development stages when coming up so far behind. But the gas reserves from "their" South China Sea could fuel China's current consumption for over 100 years so ey... abundant resources and you get to project power if needed.


----------



## luutzu (29 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Or plant rice, drone work on a production line, inhaling unmitigated pollution, eating pets, looking after the parents like for ever .....




The parents part is fine by me... what with the three kids all raised Western style where they actually talk to you like you're their mate, asked to be paid for chores but won't be splitting the bills, ever!

With food, get use to having everything fried or dip in oil. Wait, that's what the Americans are giving us. Well there's the MSG to look forward to... If you think Coke makes your tongue dance.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 October 2015)

Imagine being lucky enough to have a baby daughter... then killing it yourself because in your culture boys/men are more highly valued, and you can only have one child per couple.  Imagine wrapping up a perfect new baby and throwing it in the trash.  This has been going on for over 2000 years in China.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/gender-01222015125826.html

It's resulted in a population imbalance of about *33 million more men than women* in the adult population.  How clever.  What did they think would be the long-term result of widespread female infanticide?

Now today the Party have decided to go back to a two child policy.  God help us.  I despair at the sort of power the Party weilds now, due to its brainwashing of a population who are unaware of what's going on.  The people are _*still *_lapping up everything Big Brother tells them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34665539

Now with a renewed interest in population growth, maybe they can add to the pollution problem which they've handled so well.  

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIovTHxcDpyAIVRjCmCh1v9A6W


----------



## CanOz (30 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Imagine being lucky enough to have a baby daughter... then killing it yourself because in your culture boys/men are more highly valued.  Wrap it up and throw it in the trash.  This has been going on for over 2000 years in China.
> 
> http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/gender-01222015125826.html
> 
> ...




One might say the ones that were killed were lucky. The ones that survived have not had a pleasant journey, trust me. Thankfully this is/has changed. 

The men, particularly the older ones (over 50) are a disgusting waste of oxygen. They way they behave to their families (generalising) is really horrible. They gamble, cheat, lie, complete pigs really. This is NOT a nice culture. Sure there are some exceptions, but generally speaking, in my ten years here, there is not allot about this culture that's worth keeping. Toss it out and start again...there are many other examples of great Asian cultures with plenty of Chinese. The mainland is just plain rotten...


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> One might say the ones that were killed were lucky. The ones that survived have not had a pleasant journey, trust me. Thankfully this is/has changed.
> 
> The men, particularly the older ones (over 50) are a disgusting waste of oxygen. They way they behave to their families (generalising) is really horrible. They gamble, cheat, lie, complete pigs really. This is NOT a nice culture. Sure there are some exceptions, but generally speaking, in my ten years here, there is not allot about this culture that's worth keeping. Toss it out and start again...there are many other examples of great Asian cultures with plenty of Chinese. The mainland is just plain rotten...




How do you see it playing out in the future?  Are people desperate to leave, or they think it's all ok?  Do you feel free to write stuff like this without Big Brother logging your every post?


----------



## CanOz (30 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> How do you see it playing out in the future?  Are people desperate to leave, or they think it's all ok?  Do you feel free to write stuff like this without Big Brother logging your every post?




It's a man's world, they love it. Where else is it acceptable to lie, steal, cheat, extort, gamble, smoke, ***** around  and generally behave like a college frat student when you're 60?

They don't want me here, they'll be glad when we all leave (expats).


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> It's a man's world, they love it. Where else is it acceptable to lie, steal, cheat, extort, gamble, smoke, ***** around  and generally behave like a college frat student when you're 60?
> 
> They don't want me here, they'll be glad when we all leave (expats).




Not to be too nosy Canoz, but what are you doing there ?


----------



## minwa (30 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> It's a man's world, they love it. *Where else* is it acceptable to lie, steal, cheat, extort, gamble, smoke, ***** around  and generally behave like a college frat student when you're 60?




Sounds like Wall St to me, hehe. 

But I do agree China is one of the most unpleasant Chinese country to be in.  Singapore or Taiwan are great places where foreigners are mostly loved. HK maybe 20 years ago, not anymore. But China is where they money is and of course people and business will tolerate anything to make money, hence why mainland is so popular.


----------



## CanOz (30 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Not to be too nosy Canoz, but what are you doing there ?




Packing....


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> Packing....




You wouldn't be there unless _for you_ the good aspects clearly outweighed the bad.  What are the good aspects?


----------



## luutzu (30 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Imagine being lucky enough to have a baby daughter... then killing it yourself because in your culture boys/men are more highly valued, and you can only have one child per couple.  Imagine wrapping up a perfect new baby and throwing it in the trash.  This has been going on for over 2000 years in China.
> 
> http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/gender-01222015125826.html
> 
> ...




Where did you get "for 2000 years" from? Only been since the 70s under the Communist Party.

They're correcting that now since it occured to them only allowing the rich to have two kids just can't save China's aging population and workforce (and the military readying for expansion and glory )


----------



## luutzu (30 October 2015)

CanOz said:


> It's a man's world, they love it. Where else is it acceptable to lie, steal, cheat, extort, gamble, smoke, ***** around  and generally behave like a college frat student when you're 60?
> 
> They don't want me here, they'll be glad when we all leave (expats).




Maybe you, being an expat, only hang out with the rich and spoilt upper crust?

I knew a Chinese International student back in the days... she was just insane. I still don't know what the guy saw in her...


----------



## Gringotts Bank (31 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Where did you get "for 2000 years" from? Only been since the 70s under the Communist Party.
> 
> They're correcting that now since it occured to them only allowing the rich to have two kids just can't save China's aging population and workforce (and the military readying for expansion and glory )




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMungello2012144-1

It's referenced too, which is odd.  (200, I guess).

I'm assuming that the 33 million population difference means that roughly that same number of female babies were murdered.  They are different, that's for sure.


----------



## luutzu (1 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMungello2012144-1
> 
> It's referenced too, which is odd.  (200, I guess).
> 
> I'm assuming that the 33 million population difference means that roughly that same number of female babies were murdered.  They are different, that's for sure.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (11 November 2015)

Don't worry about anyone else, Mrs Chong.  Just look after yourself and bugger everyone else.

Rape the system.  Unbelievable.

http://www.news.com.au/national/chi...ula-in-australia/story-fncynjr2-1226547242828


----------



## Tisme (12 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Don't worry about anyone else, Mrs Chong.  Just look after yourself and bugger everyone else.
> 
> Rape the system.  Unbelievable.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/chi...ula-in-australia/story-fncynjr2-1226547242828




I don't think organic baby formula is going to counteract the health demise of those babies who are breathing in toxins and drinking contaminated water.


----------



## luutzu (12 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> I don't think organic baby formula is going to counteract the health demise of those babies who are breathing in toxins and drinking contaminated water.




We'll then be shipping water and air over too... ka Ching


----------



## CanOz (12 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Don't worry about anyone else, Mrs Chong.  Just look after yourself and bugger everyone else.
> 
> Rape the system.  Unbelievable.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/chi...ula-in-australia/story-fncynjr2-1226547242828




We've actually got two people in Australia stocking up on formula for us. Joe is one of them. We have enough to get through until we get to Australia, then once we're there we'll have to scour the countryside for our own after our stash runs out.....

Little Austin consumes about a can a week now, they should limit sales to two cans per customer.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 November 2015)

CanOz said:


> We've actually got two people in Australia stocking up on formula for us. Joe is one of them. We have enough to get through until we get to Australia, then once we're there we'll have to scour the countryside for our own after our stash runs out.....
> 
> Little Austin consumes about a can a week now, they should limit sales to two cans per customer.




That's different, for obvious reasons (I still have no idea why you'd live in such a horrid place).

You're telling me there's not a single Chinese comapny who can be trusted to produce a very basic, 'clean' baby food product?

You can bet the Party and their cronies would have an uninterrupted supply. Along with all the best fresh produce from Australia.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (12 November 2015)

They build mega cities that no one lives in.  Ghost towns.

They pollute the hell out of the skies and rivers, yet continue to build coal power stations at an unprecedented pace.  

They have a population of 1.4 billion, yet re-introduce the two child policy.

They promote a rigorous national pride, yet covet everything and anything from the West.

The ruling Party lives in splendorous wealth, whilst 80 million plebs live in dire poverty.

And they can't manage to make baby formula.  

It's like Bizarro world.


----------



## luutzu (12 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> They build mega cities that no one lives in.  Ghost towns.
> 
> They pollute the hell out of the skies and rivers, yet continue to build coal power stations at an unprecedented pace.
> 
> ...




Only the very rich Chinese buy baby formulas and eat import food. If your average wage is $5 a day or something, you'd be lucky to just have food and put aside some for a mortgage.

So there are formula, but even the Chinese branded ones are only affordable to the middle class there. The poor and working class kids get fed congee or mother's milk, and occasionally a bit of formula the parents managed to afford once a year or something.


Two child policy is future planning. When there's a potential war, you can't ask fat spoilt kids from rich families to go die, and you might have a revolution on your hand if you ask parents to surrender their only child.

That and if peace is possible once you colonise the seas around you, you'd need new blood to replace and contribute for tired, sick and older blood.


----------



## skc (12 November 2015)

CanOz said:


> We've actually got two people in Australia stocking up on formula for us. Joe is one of them. We have enough to get through until we get to Australia, then once we're there we'll have to scour the countryside for our own after our stash runs out.....
> 
> Little Austin consumes about a can a week now, they should limit sales to two cans per customer.




There's always the breast...


----------



## CanOz (12 November 2015)

skc said:


> There's always the breast...




She did 12 months of that. Not keen to get that going again, for a multitude of reasons beyond the subject of the thread

Actually, good ole Devondale full cream is really good....can't buy it anymore at our local Tesco. Need to take a run into Shanghai.

Its a shame that we can't trust the milk here, but there are too many clowns taking a short term opportunistic view here. Just the other day they shut down a vermicelli plant for making entirely synthetic noodles....i mean WHO DOES THAT RIGHT

Thanks Mao.:frown:


----------



## skc (12 November 2015)

CanOz said:


> Its a shame that we can't trust the milk here, but there are too many clowns taking a short term opportunistic view here. Just the other day they shut down a vermicelli plant for making entirely synthetic noodles....i mean WHO DOES THAT RIGHT




Yes it never ceases to amaze me how evil the Chinese food industry is...

http://teesfinity.com/top-10-craziest-fake-food-in-china/

That's why I will never live there with children. Doesn't matter how careful you are and go shop in Western stores etc... the risk is just too high if you have the choice of living in another country.


----------



## luutzu (14 November 2015)

Interesting interview on future battlegrounds the US (and allies) are already heading into: Africa.

All these time I thought the drones and some special ops were just around Somalia and a couple other places to secure the Suez canal and Gulf of Aden. Didn't know the US have special boots in some 90% of African countries and its proxies engaged in some 600 operations last year in Africa 

Scary how, towards the Middle, Turse was saying the Chinese are all over the place in Africa winning hearts and minds with new infrastructures (and troops in South Sudan) securing its oil and other interests while the US, under Obama, want war on the cheap with drones and training rebels that lead to more violent and not winning hearts and minds.


Heard from some interview with Chomsky where he quoted a ME expert saying the US drone programmes across Pakistan is risking the country's order and could lead to its nuclear weapons being handed to Islamic terrorists. 



[video]http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/11/13/part_2_nick_turse_on_us[/video]


----------



## sinner (15 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> Interesting interview on future battlegrounds the US (and allies) are already heading into: Africa.




TomDispatch (http://www.tomdispatch.com/ ) regularly carries articles from Turse who has been covering AFRICOM and the command heirarchy and US Special Ops in general for a couple of years now.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175743/tomgram:_nick_turse,_africom's_gigantic_"small_footprint"

The first inklings I heard of it was when those US Special Forces guys were killed in Mali with prostitutes in their car in 2012. 

The US is in there along with the Europeans (especially the French) making a mess everywhere they touch. To see which European countries are involved look back at who was involved in Libya bombing ops in 2011. To see the kind of trouble they have raked up, merely look at Libya today which is neatly divided in two, or Yemen. Basically doing a great job of killing everywhere they shouldn't be while letting the likes of Boko Haram run wild.

Africa represents a relatively open frontier to China and they get a lot of bang for their buck. Anecdotally, I have heard that various Governments and regimes in Africa are getting investment from the Chinese SOEs on stuff that Western companies couldn't touch due to environmental/ethical concerns. For example in Rare Earth space. 

There are a lot of Chinese enclaves in cities all over Africa that have no other foreign presence.

To be honest, I think the move is smart on Chinas part, spending their FX reserves on real assets where the spending is most optimal. Their so called "resource diplomacy" is several notches better than the sort of "diplomacy" Western colonialists carried out on that continent for centuries.


----------



## luutzu (15 November 2015)

sinner said:


> TomDispatch (http://www.tomdispatch.com/ ) regularly carries articles from Turse who has been covering AFRICOM and the command heirarchy and US Special Ops in general for a couple of years now.
> 
> http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175743/tomgram:_nick_turse,_africom's_gigantic_"small_footprint"
> 
> ...




Yea, I have maybe some idea on 10% of what you said is going on up there. Always amazed at how little I, and maybe the public at large, are not aware of what our gov't is doing in our name.

Seems like China is preparing the sea lanes to bring the goods from Africa home. Heard they're very active in Sri Lanka with infrastructure and port investments, buying off a few generals and the former president... same in Mayanmar until the US thought to bring it in from the cold else China will secure it as an alternate supply route.

Might wake up one day seeing the whole world goes to heck without any of our permission.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (15 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> Seems like China is preparing the sea lanes to bring the goods from Africa home. Heard they're very active in Sri Lanka with infrastructure and port investments, *buying off a few generals and the former president*... same in Mayanmar until the US thought to bring it in from the cold else China will secure it as an alternate supply route.




That's how they do business.  That's how all 3rd world countries do business.


----------



## luutzu (15 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> That's how they do business.  That's how all 3rd world countries do business.




That's how all countries do it. In the 3rd world, they cut out the chit chats and get right to the point 

In that interview with Turse, he mentioned a couple of US Colonels, pretty sure it's not a general... who thought to just overthrow a couple of African gov't... went ahead with it and that's that.   I thought you could only do stuff like that in colonial times way way way back a few decades ago.


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> I thought you could only do stuff like that in colonial times way way way back a few decades ago.



the difference is that you now throw your support/money/arms to another local general/future despot
No one will cry for the former in any case and a rotten scumbag is replaced by another rotten scumbag...
Part of the deal will be an oil concession or similar;
And the day democraty is given a chance, you end up with a bad (to the western world) surprise: Egypt for the latest example


----------



## luutzu (16 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> the difference is that you now throw your support/money/arms to another local general/future despot
> No one will cry for the former in any case and a rotten scumbag is replaced by another rotten scumbag...
> Part of the deal will be an oil concession or similar;
> And the day democraty is given a chance, you end up with a bad (to the western world) surprise: Egypt for the latest example




yea, but he's your scumbag doing your bidding. I'm just saying... That's how they think about it... 

If you want to run the world, you don't want democracy. Not in your own country, and definitely not in outposts you want to be around.

People do not want war. They want boring stuff like peace, raising their kids, playing with their grandkids (and baby sitting their grandkids??)... that and they want their tax dollars to go towards healthcare, education, to help the poor and the needy... They want their representatives to answer for the chopper rides, the limo and the family vacation on their dime... and they want to be able to travel to places and not get blown up by terrorists or crossfires.

That's very restrictive; better to have a good friend who get things done without the red tapes abroad... and at home where some genius had the idea of writing stuff like "all men are created equal"; all "free men" have rights to this and that; then they get to vote and can vote you out of power... You then have to play by that rule but bend it here and there, push them votes here and there.


----------



## qldfrog (17 November 2015)

we all agree there !
but the takeover of African resources by China is well in its way;
The US/france/UK may have the receptions/embassy dinners and arms sales but the fields oil and ports are now chinese and it will not be long before they put their own puppets too.No opinion there, just looking at facts and not sure I blame the Chineses for this either


----------



## luutzu (17 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> we all agree there !
> but the takeover of African resources by China is well in its way;
> The US/france/UK may have the receptions/embassy dinners and arms sales but the fields oil and ports are now chinese and it will not be long before they put their own puppets too.No opinion there, just looking at facts and not sure I blame the Chineses for this either




Saw a doco a while back where France control pretty much all of North West Africa, and yes, its oil and gas too.
Maybe they haven't been doing such a good job so the US has started to take over?

But yes, China will be a big problem to the established order. They got a lot of kids to feed and a couple more hundred millions are on the way... can't just go around buying all the stuff you need. There will come a time where it's more cost effective to take it with boots on the ground, and on the high seas, and on the artificial islands and bases... and proxies and partners.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (17 November 2015)

Coles and Woolworths to limit buying baby formula to 2 per customer.

Oh yeh, that will work.  Check this out.

*http://www.ebay.com.au/bhp/baby-formula*

If China ever runs out of bread or meat, don't expect to eat.  The Chinese will rape the supermarkets in just the same way they are doing now, aided by their import/export crew.

I doubt there's a word in their dictionary for 'consideration'.  I could go and ask one of my neighbours, but none of them speaks English.  Well that, and I'd never make it past the 15 foot high concrete fence.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 November 2015)

Where our infrastructure is concerned, who should we trust ?

Safety concerns over fabricated Chinese steel flooding Australian market


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/safety-warning-over-fabricated-chinese-steel/6949506


----------



## dutchie (22 November 2015)

Chinese lease Darwin Port.

Only because it gives such a good return on their investment. 1% I think.




Stupid Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Chinese lease Darwin Port.
> 
> Only because it gives such a good return on their investment. 1% I think.
> 
> ...




Yes, this is an interesting article regarding the Darwin Port lease, short term gain politics.IMO Dumb as a bucket full of backsides.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...-is-another-link-in-china's-expansion/6967640

I wonder if they will end up evicting us, as lazy tenants, that don't pull their weight.

Maybe, when they own everything in Aus, they will just wind back welfare, till everyone either gets of their ar$e or leaves.lol


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2015)

Interesting lecture on the rise of China, how US/NATO policies in the Ukraine, the ME will stall that pivot to Asia, leaving China to do what rising power does. Doing it with little resistance and great support from Russia.

This lecture of last December and the few concerns he raised just got a whole lot worst - namely ISIS is still around and expanding its operations; Russia is drawn into Syria and is promising to avenge against Turkey if they can't explain why Russia shouldn't take a few of their jets out of the sky too... Afghanistan is stirring up; a bunch of small battles in Africa.

Oh yea, he also this is only the beginning and China won't be too much trouble for at least another 15 years. I think new generation of the two child policies will come of age by then... fresh new blood, fresh new demand to boost China's domestic economy along the way.

We in the West got that addiction to trickle down economics, austerity, and funding wars and anti terrorism efforts all over the place.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2015)

I read in the West Australian, the other day that the W.A Government,was hoding up billions of dollars of Chinese investment in the Ord irrigation area.

From what i read, it appeared the stumbling block is how much financial surety the Chinese had to put up, the Government wanted a 50 year unlimited surety, the Chinese want to put up $150 million.

Meanwhile we put in billions of dollars of tax payer funds, to supply the extra water and infrastructure, then they walk away and say we don't want it.

Sounds a bit like our endless mining boom that was going to last for decades, China says we will take all you can produce, then when you're geared up say no we don't want it.

Maybe the W.A Government has woken up, to the rope a dope tactic, who knows.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I read in the West Australian, the other day that the W.A Government,was hoding up billions of dollars of Chinese investment in the Ord irrigation area.
> 
> From what i read, it appeared the stumbling block is how much financial surety the Chinese had to put up, the Government wanted a 50 year unlimited surety, the Chinese want to put up $150 million.
> 
> ...




Did they? Didn't know that. I guess them Chinese aren't that stupid after all 

Read the current oil and commodity crash is also nice going for them too. Stock up on the strategic reserves, have spare to sell overseas.

It's a good place to be in when you report your economy is doing it tough, growth is lagging... and stupid traders panic and sell stuff cheaper to you.


----------



## DB008 (1 December 2015)

*Chinese Group Buys $400 Million Stake in Manchester City Owner​*


> A Chinese consortium led by China Media Capital Holdings is investing $400 million in an Abu Dhabi-based company that owns Manchester City Football club, the top-ranked British Premier League team.
> 
> CMC, a Shanghai-based private equity fund that owns the broadcast rights to the Chinese Super League, is teaming up with CITIC Capital Holdings to buy 13 percent of City Football Group, which also owns New York City Football Club, and Melbourne City Football Club, , according to a statement on Tuesday. The deal values City Football at $3 billion.
> CMC is chaired by Li Ruigang, who has led group investments including a stake in IMAX China Holding Inc., and tie ups with DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc. and Warner Brothers by the fund focused on media content and sports events.
> ...




http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-01/chinese-group-buys-400-million-stake-in-manchester-city-owner​


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2015)

The Chinese are very active aren't they.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/ener...t-snaps-up-pacific-hydro-20151216-glp7cg.html

We really are a Country, being bought up at bargain prices.

I don't know how we will control the price of anything, when we own nothing.:1zhelp:


----------



## bely1995 (17 December 2015)

Clash of Empires. USA, China, Germany will dominate the world economy?:confus:


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2016)

Are the Chinese trying to kill us or just take us for a ride ?



Dozens of Australian building sites contaminated by illegal Chinese asbestos imports, authorities say


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...es-contaminated-with-chinese-asbestos/7166674


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Are the Chinese trying to kill us or just take us for a ride ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Take us for a ride? The ride then kill us?

Saw a clip from the Daily Show a while back where the Canadian, yea, Canada Canadian... they actually export raw asbestos to India. There's no regulation in India about asbestos and the spokesman for one of those Canadian companies said asbestos probably won't kill or harm Indians, the brown folks are resistant to it or something. 

Then it show a clip of a poor Indian worker cluelessly shuffling asbestos fibre into some machine. Fark. 

Capitalism man, who needs all these red tapes and regulations when the Market can regulate itself.


----------



## CanOz (15 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Are the Chinese trying to kill us or just take us for a ride ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This needs some tough action, the Libs need to send a message that poisonous crap won't be tolerated. This is where the Unions could actually prove their worth as well for a change, by striking/boycotting anything Chinese until they get the message. Foreign companies can't export anything from China without going jumping through hoops and this just proves again how anything and anyone can be bought in China, including the export quarantine inspectors....makes one wonder what testing was done on the Australian side and how long it will be until the corrupt/greedy pigs get their claws into them as well....


----------



## CanOz (1 April 2016)

This is wrong on so many levels....



> China Builds an Empire of Electricity With Australia as Target




If foreign companies cannot own Chinese state companies, then State companies should not own another states assets! Why are we so stupid, how can we let politicians privatize like this? I'm all for paying off debt with privatization, but listed companies only, no sovereign or state companies....this is just common sense to me, am i missing something?


----------



## Knobby22 (1 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> This is wrong on so many levels....
> 
> 
> 
> If foreign companies cannot own Chinese state companies, then State companies should not own another states assets! Why are we so stupid, how can we let politicians privatize like this? I'm all for paying off debt with privatization, but listed companies only, no sovereign or state companies....this is just common sense to me, am i missing something?




So true.
the thread name is wrong.
China will not end up owning the world but China could end up owning Australia.
I am also amazed how much good farming land we are letting them own. We should only allow them leases.


----------



## CanOz (1 April 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> So true.
> the thread name is wrong.
> China will not end up owning the world but China could end up owning Australia.
> I am also amazed how much good farming land we are letting them own. *We should only allow them leases.*




Absolutely!! In China you can only lease the land, the state keeps it...

We need a petition on this crap....:bad:


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> So true.
> the thread name is wrong.
> China will not end up owning the world but China could end up owning Australia.
> I am also amazed how much good farming land we are letting them own. We should only allow them leases.




I agree in principle but how can you stop private owners selling their own land ?

Personally I think the Future Fund should buy the land and then lease it out, but are they going to pay market price (ie what the Chinese are prepared to pay) or forcibly acquire it for less ?

A few tricky legal things to sort out there.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree in principle but how can you stop private owners selling their own land ?




I don't think there is a problem with them buying land, its more of a problem of what we are doing. this is a great little analogy.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I don't think there is a problem with them buying land, its more of a problem of what we are doing. this is a great little analogy.





Indeed so, which is why we have a right to know how much of our assets are in foreign hands and what the trend in foreign acquisitions are. 

How much is too much according to the politicians ?


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so, which is why we have a right to know how much of our assets are in foreign hands and what the trend in foreign acquisitions are.
> 
> How much is too much according to the politicians ?




"Our assets"???? Unless we own it it's their assets.

I don't really think there should be limits, the real problem is that not enough Aussies are buying assets (apart from houses) 

Aussies need to start putting their money where their mouth is and taking a bigger ownership interest in our own economy, and start exporting more products so the foreigners are less likely to use their Aussie dollars to buy assets.

People say they don't want Chinese ownership of our farms, but are those Aussies investing their money into own agricultural sector??? Probably not.

The average farmer is over 60, what are we going to do, deny them the right to sell and retire and then when they die let the farm turn to weeds???


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> "Our assets"???? Unless we own it it's their assets.
> 
> I don't really think there should be limits, the real problem is that not enough Aussies are buying assets (apart from houses)
> 
> ...




If you look at my original post I suggested that the Future Fund buy the land then lease it to whoever can pay the most while complying with sustainability criteria.

Yer average Aussie investor can't compete against cashed up Chinese billionaires looking for a money laundering operation.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If you look at my original post I suggested that the Future Fund buy the land then lease it to whoever can pay the most while complying with sustainability criteria.
> 
> Yer average Aussie investor can't compete against cashed up Chinese billionaires looking for a money laundering operation.




If they are over paying, why would we want to stop them doing that, and funding Aussie farmers retirement in the process, we will by it back half price after the next 7 year drought was the craze has passed.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> If they are over paying, why would we want to stop them doing that, and funding Aussie farmers retirement in the process, we will by it back half price after the next 7 year drought was the craze has passed.




Where do you think the products and the profits will be going ?

Both could stay here or at least be controlled if we owned the properties. There is such a thing as national interest not just the interest of individual farmers retiring in the Caymans.


----------



## luutzu (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Where do you think the products and the profits will be going ?
> 
> Both could stay here or at least be controlled if we owned the properties. There is such a thing as national interest not just the interest of individual farmers retiring in the Caymans.




I think the US, UK and Japan owns a much larger chunk of Australia than China. A few times over.

I think our politicians are pretty clever at drawing in Chinese and other foreign capital. That's a good thing... they can own it but they can't take it home with them right?

Much like most Australian homeowners not really owning their home or their few other properties... Looks and sounds good but really, the bank got the paper that said otherwise.

Same with foreign investors... may top dollars, then the taxes and stamp duty. And when we want it back we just increase the tax, lower the Aussie dollar etc., and off they go.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Where do you think the products and the profits will be going ?
> 
> Both could stay here or at least be controlled if we owned the properties. There is such a thing as national interest not just the interest of individual farmers retiring in the Caymans.




The products will probably be sold to the highest bidder in the free market, just as any Aussie farmer sells their products, I don't know of an Aussie farmer who would deny sending his wheat to China if he were to earn an extra $5 per tonne by doing so, do you not think we aren't exporting ship loads already??

As for profits, well profits are only about 5% of the revenue a farmer generates if he is lucky, they can't take the farm back to China, so most of the revenue generated would be defused back into the Aussie economy via wages spent locally, transport and storage, services, fertiliser and energy costs and thousands of other incidental expenses.

Farmers retiring in the caymans??? They probably stay around their community, spending that lump sum that probably represents 20years of profit from the farm.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> I think the US, UK and Japan owns a much larger chunk of Australia than China. A few times over.
> 
> .




And it's not like Aussie companies are shy about buying assets over seas, the Aussie banks basically own the New Zealand banking system, westfields owns shopping centres all over the USA, Bhp and Rio own mines everywhere, there was a fad for a while of Aussies buying New Zealand and USA real estate, 

Hell, through the magic of share markets and securitisation, even I own a nice little cross section of the USA.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

> The products will probably be sold to the highest bidder in the free market, just as any Aussie farmer sells their products, I don't know of an Aussie farmer who would deny sending his wheat to China if he were to earn an extra $5 per tonne by doing so, do you not think we aren't exporting ship loads already??




Did you even bother looking at that video you posted ?

If we keep selling off the farm then one day we don't have enough food to feed ourselves because it's all going o/s.

Then we have to impose export restrictions , then China gets angry about that, then they send some naval vessels to ensure they get "their" products and then what ?

I think I know who is going to win from then on.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Did you even bother looking at that video you posted ?
> 
> If we keep selling off the farm then one day we don't have enough food to feed ourselves because it's all going o/s.
> 
> ...




Mate, regardless of whether the owner of the farm is Australian, Chinese, English or South African he or she will sell their produce to the highest bidder. 

As I said earlier, do you really think the current generation of Aussie farmers are resisting the urge to export their produce because they have a duty to supply it cheaper to their countrymen? Offcourse not.

The answer is not restrictions on foreign ownership, any investment in the agricultural sector we can get is a good thing, if we want it to be more Australian owned, then more Aussies need to invest.

Can I ask, do you currently invest is the agricultural sector?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, regardless of whether the owner of the farm is Australian, Chinese, English or South African he or she will sell their produce to the highest bidder.
> 
> As I said earlier, do you really think the current generation of Aussie farmers are resisting the urge to export their produce because they have a duty to supply it cheaper to their countrymen? Offcourse not.
> 
> ...




We obviously have a fundamental difference in approach to "markets". You totally ignore national interest which is the driving force of Chinese investment and you think that everything is about individuals. I don't take that view, but I don't believe in socialisation either.

We can have the best of both worlds if our sovereign wealth fund invests locally (what else is it there for).

As for getting "more Aussies" to invest, most people these days are struggling to pay for their own homes thanks to people (like you perhaps) gazumping them on purchase price and then charging exhorbitant rents.

Added to that , how is 24 million private investors supposed to compete against  State backed investment of 1 billion people ?  

You have to recognise realities and it seems your free market ideology (religion maybe) is blinding you to that reality.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Added to that , how is 24 million private investors supposed to compete against  State backed investment of 1 billion people ?
> 
> .




Do you have any information that suggests the farm acquisitions are state enterprises?

any way, there is already good aussie companies making profitable investments, there is just not enough of them.

It's not like the Chinese have forced Aussies out, Australian under investment in the sector has created a vacuum.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Do you have any information that suggests the farm acquisitions are state enterprises?




The whole of China is a State owned enterprise.

Any so called Chinese "private company" is a either a front for the State or a corrupt apparachik looking for a money laundering operation.

Do you really need me to tell you that there are t1ts on a cow ?


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Any so called Chinese "private company" is a either a front for the State or a corrupt apparachik looking for a money laundering operation.




Well, that's just False.

There are plenty of private companies and loads of private investors.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Well, that's just False.
> 
> There are plenty of private companies and loads of private investors.




It doesn't matter either way, the products and the profits go elsewhere.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It doesn't matter either way, the products and the profits go elsewhere.




As I said, there is massive under investment by Australians, so it's not stopping any Australians investing.

If they are lucky they may earn 5% of their revenue in profits, the other 95% will be cycled back into the Aussie economy.

Even their profits may be cycled back into the economy, via further investments or spent on consumption within Australia, That 5% profit may be exported, but so what, they earned it and they probably have to export 100% of profits for 10-20 years before they have actually taken money out of our economy when you factor in the price paid to the farmer for the investment.

The products will go to the highest bidder, as they always will, we are an exporter of food anyway, and we can produce more food, lots more if we get the investment.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

It's a global economy, mercantilism is dead.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> It's a global economy, mercantilism is dead.




Tell that to the Chinese.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Tell that to the Chinese.




They are reforming faster than any European country did


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> They are reforming faster than any European country did




Of course they are, with an authoritarian government in charge, everyone has to tow the line.

But do you really think China will become a truly "free" market ? Of course it won't, the communists will still be in charge.


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course they are, with an authoritarian government in charge, everyone has to tow the line.
> 
> But do you really think China will become a truly "free" market ? Of course it won't, the communists will still be in charge.




I don't think they have a choice long term, they can either make slow steady changes themselves, or face a revolution, and they probably fear revolution more than slow steady change.

But that's got nothing to do with how the Chinese investors in Australia act, some of them have money to invest, and we have an under capitalised sector creating a vacuum that needs funds.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> But that's got nothing to do with how the Chinese investors in Australia act, some of them have money to invest, and we have an under capitalised sector creating a vacuum that needs funds.




The Australia Future fund has net assets of $117 billion.

A part of that would fill the vacuum in agriculture investment.


----------



## Value Collector (3 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The Australia Future fund has net assets of $117 billion.
> 
> A part of that would fill the vacuum in agriculture investment.




I doubt it.


----------



## CanOz (3 May 2016)

The Kidman bid has been withdrawn....good on Scott Morrison for all but opposing this. If the Chinese want land in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter, let them sign 75-100 year leases.  A bit of their own won't hurt them.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (3 May 2016)

CanOz said:


> The Kidman bid has been withdrawn....good on Scott Morrison for all but opposing this. If the Chinese want land in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter, let them sign 75-100 year leases.  A bit of their own won't hurt them.




I hope they don't get any more pushy in the South China Sea.  Deserted, tropical atols are being transformed into ugly, concrete miltary bases at a rapid clip.  There's nothing that will stop them linking them up eventually.  Bloody awful.


----------



## CanOz (3 May 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I hope they don't get any more pushy in the South China Sea.  Deserted, tropical atols are being transformed into ugly, concrete miltary bases at a rapid clip.  There's nothing that will stop them linking them up eventually.  Bloody awful.




Can't wait to hear of the first storm surge that wipes it out....


----------



## luutzu (3 May 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I hope they don't get any more pushy in the South China Sea.  Deserted, tropical atols are being transformed into ugly, concrete miltary bases at a rapid clip.  There's nothing that will stop them linking them up eventually.  Bloody awful.




I don't think they're going for the natural look G. Going for the Regional Hegemony look.

The last time a militarizing former super power arms up and take over a few neighbourhood with nothing being done to stop them... World War 2 broke out and some 50 million dead. 

This time all the big boys got nukes to play with. 

Better start learning Mandarin or buy can food for that bunker at the back.


----------



## luutzu (3 May 2016)

CanOz said:


> Can't wait to hear of the first storm surge that wipes it out....




I heard they're planning to use "floating nuclear" power plants to power these bases. 

Can we tell if the nukes on them bases are nuclear weapons or from the power generator? 

I bet they're going to be buying a few island on the other side of the Phillipines and set up shop there too.


Good to know Western gov't are busy beggaring their own people at home and mucking around with the Muslims,   Arabs and Russian abroad. They only have India and South America to upset and we're good to go at it.


----------



## PZ99 (4 May 2016)

My question is if China don't end up owning the world will they own up to ending the world? :1zhelp:


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2016)

PZ99 said:


> My question is if China don't end up owning the world will they own up to ending the world? :1zhelp:




Own up to whom? Earth will be a very quiet place for a long while after.


----------



## CanOz (26 May 2016)

How an industry helps Chinese students cheat their way into and through U.S. colleges

Well it seems this generation of students studying in foreign Universities may not be that well educated after all...

Explains why a former employee of mine didn't know anything about the practical application of statistics yet had a Six Sigma black belt...

I guess they'll have to be good at Guanxi!


----------



## luutzu (26 May 2016)

CanOz said:


> How an industry helps Chinese students cheat their way into and through U.S. colleges
> 
> Well it seems this generation of students studying in foreign Universities may not be that well educated after all...
> 
> ...




Most students from third world aristocrats never go overseas for the education anyway. Kinda like most aristocrats anywhere really.


----------



## webbrowan (30 May 2016)

I don't think they will own the world. The standards within the country itself are a big conflict right there. They need to be able to work out a lot of things if they want to be able to stay in power and show that they are influential enough, and right now, people just don't respect them enough. Monetarily and financially though, they might just eat us all up unfortunately. the rich people will bulldoze us over because they still have a lot of poor people who will stay behind the scenes and fuel their greed.


----------



## Value Collector (30 May 2016)

webbrowan said:


> I don't think they will own the world. .




I would think they will own at least 20% of the world, given they have about 20% of the population.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 June 2016)

A salutary lesson about doing business in China.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-30/matthew-ng-on-the-cost-of-doing-business-in-china/7554694


----------



## notting (1 July 2016)

China sets Yuan at weakest level that has been set for 5.5 years.
:bricks1:

How short our memory is -


----------



## dutchie (13 July 2016)

AN INTERNATIONAL tribunal has ruled against China in a bitter row over territorial claims to the South China Sea, which is expected to further escalate tensions in the region.

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/i...g/news-story/b233d2a9d2d0f332efc7cf62d0b39cb6


BOYCOTT CHINESE GOODS


----------



## SirRumpole (13 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> AN INTERNATIONAL tribunal has ruled against China in a bitter row over territorial claims to the South China Sea, which is expected to further escalate tensions in the region.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/i...g/news-story/b233d2a9d2d0f332efc7cf62d0b39cb6
> 
> ...




Funny how some people admire Pauline Hanson for sticking it up international busy bodies but don't like China doing the same thing.



But I do agree that China has gone too far and an international trade embargo is the best way of "helping" them change their mind.


----------



## dutchie (13 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> But I do agree that China has gone too far and an international trade embargo is the best way of "helping" them change their mind.




"helping" - I like it.


----------



## luutzu (13 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how some people admire Pauline Hanson for sticking it up international busy bodies but don't like China doing the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> But I do agree that China has gone too far and an international trade embargo is the best way of "helping" them change their mind.




There's not going to be any sanctions or embargoes. You only do that kind of stuff to really weak countries. That and sanctioning China will upset a whole heap of corporations - WalMart for one will not be happy.

That and I'd imagine the Chinese economy might actually improve if they're forced to rapidly invest internally/domestically. They've been trying to do that since the GFC but not nearly enough... So sanction will force them to do some stimulus, enrich their people with the capital that's not offshoring. Well that or they could go nuts and get all Mao and his Great Leap again.

Anyway, US gov't and its corporations thought China would be just another one of those Third World countries they could exploit, like Mexico say. So they take jobs away from their own people, ship it to poor communist-run peasants to make more killings.

The thinking was that once the Comrades open up, US/Western corporations make money, Comrades and their princelings make money, and so will do as they're told.

Except the Chinese have this 5,000 year history where they kinda did their Imperialism thing too and don't mind doing it again. So thanks for the money and the goods, we'll take it from here you Capitalist Pigs.

----

I remember reading in Time, when Bush Jr. first invaded Iraq, that the US has plans and resources to fight two (major) wars simultaneously. 

So there's NATO, which is practically US funded, taking on Russia.

There's the ME - all them terrorists who aren't exactly backing down.

There's Africa that the US is secretly getting busy in all over it.

There's also South America where it's also fighting economic and proxy wars against a few who like the Chinese too much.

Then there's Asia against the Chinese.

Then to make things easier, there's domestic unrest at home. There's the growing class of poor and poverty stricken, the shrinking but fatter rich elites (whom you won't and can't tax), the large corporations you think are patriotic but if their accounting and tax practices are anything to go by... it doesn't look good.

Man, talk about taking on the entire world.


----------



## CanOz (13 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> That and I'd imagine the Chinese economy might actually improve if they're forced to rapidly invest internally/domestically._ They've been trying to do that since the GFC but not nearly enough..._ So sanction will force them to do some stimulus, enrich their people with the capital that's not offshoring.






Debt to GDP since 2007

Infrastructure growth

The problem is not how much, but how in-effective its been....



> The even more alarming figure, which made headlines around the world, is that ineffective investment has cost China $10.8 trillion since 1997. Sixty-two percent of the wasteful investment—$6.8 trillion—was made after 2009, when China went on an investment binge to stimulate its economy.




Why China keeps throwing trillions in investments down the drain


----------



## dutchie (13 July 2016)

Next year China is going to extend the dashed line around Australia.









China bullies the world courts. With that type of arrogance we should ban all Chinese property purchases.


----------



## Tisme (13 July 2016)

The west's might was built on knowledge, protestantism, industrious dna and democracy. China's might is predicated on sheer weight of numbers derived from copulation.


----------



## luutzu (13 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> Debt to GDP since 2007
> 
> Infrastructure growth
> 
> ...




Not all debt are the same, some could be seen as actual investment. 

I scanned through the articles and haven't seen any evidence of China being more wasteful and less efficient than, say, the US. So take that Fortune article - their conclusion (and headline) are based on two measures... then they emphasize that those two measures might not mean anything in the case of China (due to more capital intensive investment etc.).

I wouldn't take their definition of effective and efficient investment too seriously either.

This is not to say that China's not inefficient, or that there's no corruption and coffee money and other incentives to grease the wheel of commerce. But compare to, say, the US and its use of debt - I wouldn't be too quick to think they're more efficient.

So take the bailout of the banks - costing something like $1.5 trillion first couple of years. Then the gov't guarantee all the banks liabilities; then taking further bad assets into its own books etc. etc. I've heard lectures where some economist was saying that the US would have survived fine if a few of those banks were let go. But now they're bigger than ever, and are much more of a risk since they know how the game is going to be played for sure.

Then there's the some $7 trillion spent on just Iraq and Afghanistan alone.

So even if we assume China's investments and stimulus hasn't been as efficient and bang for your buck as it could or was, it does serve the purpose of a stimulus - to put people to work building the country's infrastructure.

Compare that to the US not being really that able to get projects out of Congress. Then there's the endless war creating enemies everywhere versus China's buying favours and influence without really blowing anyone up (yet).

But I think the original point is still valid - that if sanctioned, Chinese private investors will find opportunities within their own country. For resources and raw material they can make do with taking over Mongolia, the two seas and stronger alliance with Russia. 

So China could survive without Western trade, not sure how WalMart or GM and Ford would do if they cannot get cheap labour and goods from the Middle Kingdom. Sure they could set up shop in other Asian neighbours but then China could just buy those guys too.

So militarily, can't take on China. Economically you have way too many captain of industry not happy to support or permit it, can't really get an alliance together to blockade... maybe fund some rebellion, but then the Commies don't actually play nice there either.

It's one of those problem you'd kick under the carpet for the next administration.


----------



## luutzu (13 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> The west's might was built on knowledge, protestantism, industrious dna and democracy. China's might is predicated on sheer weight of numbers derived from copulation.




Is that right?

I heard from some expert that slavery, colonialism, and other forgettable tools of empires were involved.


----------



## luutzu (13 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> Next year China is going to extend the dashed line around Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Na, next year they'll take the Phillipines. Then those pacific islands. Australia will probably be next decade.


----------



## CanOz (13 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Not all debt are the same, some could be seen as actual investment.
> 
> I scanned through the articles and haven't seen any evidence of China being more wasteful and less efficient than, say, the US. So take that Fortune article - their conclusion (and headline) are based on two measures... then they emphasize that those two measures might not mean anything in the case of China (due to more capital intensive investment etc.).
> 
> ...




There is no question that the US has been wasteful. I don't think though that bailing out the banks and going to war are generally accepted forms of quantitative easing, however 'stimulating' they may be.

My point that i was making that you seem to have missed or chosen to ignore is that the Chinese have certainly plowed trillions and trillions into stimulus, to the point that they really cannot afford to do much more. Every time they become more dovish, they just create overwhelming asset inflation and mountains more debt.

The problem we have now globally is there is just no more growth left to pay for the growth that the borrowing created. The answer cannot be more stimulus.

If there is something i agree with in your premise, its that the only hope for their economy needs to come from within, but from the consumer.


----------



## luutzu (13 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> There is no question that the US has been wasteful. I don't think though that bailing out the banks and going to war are generally accepted forms of quantitative easing, however 'stimulating' they may be.
> 
> My point that i was making that you seem to have missed or chosen to ignore is that the Chinese have certainly plowed trillions and trillions into stimulus, to the point that they really cannot afford to do much more. Every time they become more dovish, they just create overwhelming asset inflation and mountains more debt.
> 
> ...




Seems war and sales of military hardware are the US only major business in recent decade. Well that and financial engineering.

I have only spent a week in China and haven't paid much attention to its stimulus packages much, definitely not at your level... but it seems the Chinese have plenty of room to stimulate its economy and domestic consumption.

I mean, headline stuff here, they seem to be into the property and infrastructure binge... building plenty of ghost cities and unaffordable apartments sitting empty. Tweek that a bit and hundreds of million Chinese could afford and make good use of those apartments.

Then there's the opportunities to clean up their environment, waste solutions... So if they reach the building/property peak and Western countries decided not to lure the elite's money into overpriced properties.

Seems China and the Western democracies are facing similar problems - plenty of work needs to be done, plenty of cash around to hire underpaid and under-worked people to do it, yet it's sitting in some offshore havens. 

Difference might be that the Comrades can just wake up tomorrow and thought to order things be done; whereas our leadership gotta ask Packer and Murdoch if they'd want to or not.


----------



## CanOz (13 July 2016)

It might seem so simple as to just get implement the changes they want. The problem is they don't have much control over the underlings. The underlings are motivated by sheer greed. That's why the 'build build build' works so well, its open to kick backs. The entire economy runs on kick backs. 

There are entire industrial estates of empty factories (i saw this in all 3 of the town/cities i lived in, so imagine the scale of whats out there).  When i started asking questions about renting some of them, to store goods (think legitimate business ), i always got the same answer....'they're not interested in renting it out'. So they just sit there, rottng away. 

You see money is made in China by building things, banking the kick backs and moving on.....In the meantime the assets sit there and rust, or get washed away by the acid rain. If there is ever going to be another boom in China, it will be when all these assets are completed gone, crumbled into the earth and rebuilding begins again.


----------



## Tisme (13 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Is that right?
> 
> I heard from some expert that slavery, colonialism, and other forgettable tools of empires were involved.




There's that too


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> It might seem so simple as to just get implement the changes they want. The problem is they don't have much control over the underlings. The underlings are motivated by sheer greed. That's why the 'build build build' works so well, its open to kick backs. The entire economy runs on kick backs.
> 
> There are entire industrial estates of empty factories (i saw this in all 3 of the town/cities i lived in, so imagine the scale of whats out there).  When i started asking questions about renting some of them, to store goods (think legitimate business ), i always got the same answer....'they're not interested in renting it out'. So they just sit there, rottng away.
> 
> You see money is made in China by building things, banking the kick backs and moving on.....In the meantime the assets sit there and rust, or get washed away by the acid rain. If there is ever going to be another boom in China, it will be when all these assets are completed gone, crumbled into the earth and rebuilding begins again.



Interesting perspective from some trusted source, so basically the ghost cities are matched in industrial RE.
I was not aware but makes sense in the overall context: why would industrial RE be different from units and flats
Thanks Canoz


----------



## dutchie (14 July 2016)

China upset because they were outbribed.


South China Sea: Hague judges may have been influenced by money, Chinese official says

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...er-south-china-sea-after-hague-ruling/7625114


----------



## McLovin (14 July 2016)

China is a rising power and the US has her eastern approaches encircled with military bases. The problem in the South China Sea is the same as when the Europeans/US had NATO butting up against Russia. The problem at the moment is that the two are feeding off each other. China makes territorial claim, near neighbour wants closer ties (militarily) with US, China becomes more belligerent about its claims, near neighbour wants US air base.


----------



## Tisme (14 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Is that right?
> 
> I heard from some expert that slavery, colonialism, and other forgettable tools of empires were involved.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism


----------



## Tisme (14 July 2016)

McLovin said:


> China is a rising power and the US has her eastern approaches encircled with military bases. The problem in the South China Sea is the same as when the Europeans/US had NATO butting up against Russia. The problem at the moment is that the two are feeding off each other. China makes territorial claim, near neighbour wants closer ties (militarily) with US, China becomes more belligerent about its claims, near neighbour wants US air base.




If the US isn't already pulling out of China, it has one more reason to do so.... China could find itself going backwards as India and other new manufacturing regions get preferred treatment.


----------



## McLovin (14 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> If the US isn't already pulling out of China, it has one more reason to do so.... China could find itself going backwards as India and other new manufacturing regions get preferred treatment.




Rising labour costs in China have been pushing more manufacturing back to the US for a few years now.

I don't see India taking over anytime soon. If there's two things China does well it's roast duck and centrally planned government. India on the other hand is a planners worst nightmare. Vindaloo ain't bad though.


----------



## luutzu (14 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_China
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism




See, got to give credit where credit's due. Other civilisations are just as capable of "civilising" barbarians (and taking their lives, culture, and stuff).

----

It's funny how the US is citing international laws to make a big deal out of China taking over the seas around its borders. I mean, the US isn't a signatory to the UN convention on the seas - where they define exclusive economic zones, don't go into people's waters. That and, you know, who pays attention to what the UN or other international tribunals says wars, invasion and WMD anyway? Not the US.

The world is going to be in a lot of trouble with this Chinese situation. 

From the thinking of (ancient) Chinese strategists to Machiavelli to Chomsky... a superpower like the US isn't going to let China (or any state) get away with not kowtowing to its authority. You just cannot do as you please and get away with it. Great Powers politics (and Mafia doctrine) ain't going to let China do this.

What to do? You can't invade, you can't really buy off the neighbours, can't really bankrupt it - and it's setting up its own international connections and banks; you're busy all over the place while the enemy is focusing on one region.

So, global hegemony, total destruction, or give the other guy their sphere of influence.


----------



## Tisme (14 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> What to do? .




by the US ...what the CIA have done effectively for a long time now.


----------



## luutzu (14 July 2016)

McLovin said:


> Rising labour costs in China have been pushing more manufacturing back to the US for a few years now.
> 
> I don't see India taking over anytime soon. If there's two things China does well it's roast duck and centrally planned government. India on the other hand is a planners worst nightmare. Vindaloo ain't bad though.




If you could centrally ruled successfully, there'll be more ducks to roast. The Chinese has been roasting ducks for a very long while now - with a brief intermission from Europe - something the Chinese is apparently trying to correct.





See that tiny little Qin state to the left? The size of Rome or Britain? Back then it was a remnant of the Chou empire, then got busy annexing the other states, then spread all over the place - with modern China being about 90% of this little Qin (Ch'in) empire at its largest.

A country that managed to do that know a bit more than just roasting ducks and being fat and corrupt Commies.

If you compare the Han Dynasty to the Roman Empire... Han (and later dynasties) were actually more unified and better governed than Rome. The Roman Empire up to Constantine (around same number of years as the Han lasted) passes through many different families and many civil wars.

Compare that to Han's only one minor interruption/usurpation in the middle of its 400 years and you can't tell me Rome know how to better subjugate and unify its various states and provinces into one entity.

A lot of Western "thinkers" are way too dismissive of China. Maybe the current comrades aren't at the calibre of their ancestors... but they're ballsy enough to give the US both middle fingers.


----------



## luutzu (14 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> by the US ...what the CIA have done effectively for a long time now.




Yea... but I have a feeling the Comrades in Beijing wouldn't be sitting quietly if they see too many protests and human rights stuff all of a sudden in their Middle Kingdom.

They might even start talking to a few activists and White supremacists and Southerner in the land of the free. Heck, they don't even need to arm those guys - just moral support and point where those open carry guns should aim at.

This is why you don't do endless war abroad and beggar your own people at home.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

Is our free trade agreement with China hazardous to our health ?


Asbestos has been found in building materials imported from China.


Along with previous reports of poisoned milk and substandard steel, I reckon we don't need cheap Chinese cr.p.


http://www.abc.net.au/newsradio/content/s4501124.htm


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Is our free trade agreement with China hazardous to our health ?
> 
> 
> Asbestos has been found in building materials imported from China.
> ...




Rather clever really, shipping their rubbish of shore infused in a secondary material, 5% at a time..


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Is our free trade agreement with China hazardous to our health ?
> 
> 
> Along with previous reports of poisoned milk and substandard steel, I reckon we don't need cheap Chinese cr.p.
> ]




Well stop buying crap off ebay.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2016)

On a personal note, I think it may not own the World, but it may own W.A.

The Commonwealth has no interest in W.A, other than a cash cow, China may well take a longer term view.IMO

By the time the penny drops, it may well be too late.lol

Not a big voter base here.


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## SirRumpole (26 July 2016)

> Industrial unrest and mass unemployment have emerged as the chief threat to Communist Party rule in China, eclipsing separatist movements in remote provinces like Tibet and Xinjiang.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-26/china's-strikes-and-mass-unemployment-a-growing-worry/7649770


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2016)

Morrison would be crazy if he approved this.


http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...a/news-story/73884b90bd877767985e4f10ac309259


----------



## CanOz (9 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Morrison would be crazy if he approved this.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...a/news-story/73884b90bd877767985e4f10ac309259




I'd rather see it go to Li Ke-ching! than State Grid. After all, what changes does a western company get to take over a Chinese state asset? A snow flakes hope in H.E. Double Hockey Sticks. Eye for an eye....


----------



## Gringotts Bank (9 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Morrison would be crazy if he approved this.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...a/news-story/73884b90bd877767985e4f10ac309259




I think he should instead approve Australia building a US-Aus-Philipino naval base on the Spratly Islands, and just see how they like that.  We could just rock up and start claiming it as our own, then defy international law.

The sooner manufacturing becomes decentralized (away from slave labour in china) the better.  They are pushy, obtrusive, lawless and offensive, and we don't need them here.


----------



## luutzu (9 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think he should instead approve Australia building a US-Aus-Philipino naval base on the Spratly Islands, and just see how they like that.  We could just rock up and start claiming it as our own, then defy international law.
> 
> The sooner manufacturing becomes decentralized (away from slave labour in china) the better.  They are pushy, obtrusive, lawless and offensive, and we don't need them here.




That's not going to happen.

China will not retreat from its claims in these seas. Just can't do it.

If China were to be attacked, or if it were to go to war... and these seas are controlled by another power... where will China get its fuel or food or supplies?

So it must claim these waters to first, project its power and secure its supply lines; second, if the projection can't go too far - the oil and gas reserves, as well as the fisheries, would engine its country and feed its people.


Does China have the legal rights to these seas? Nope. But who's going to stop it?

Would the West risk total war over areas not directly in its backyard? Maybe... but that'll not end well - and China has more to gain and the West more to lose if WW3 were to take place.

Can the West take on the entire ME, Russia, Africa and China? Tall order.

Some recent US Tink Tank [RAND Corp.] suggest that if the US and China were to go at it, China's GDP would drop by 25% while the US only 10%... so the US would still be ahead. 

They're forgetting that China would only need to fight in its own neighbourhood while the West got a few other fronts to contain.


----------



## dutchie (9 August 2016)

'A country on the fringes of civilisation': Chinese state-owned paper calls Australia an 'offshore prison' in savage attack after Mack Horton outed Sun Yang as a drug cheat

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...called-Sun-Yang-drug-cheat.html#ixzz4GoGPtdzV

China calling us uncivilised (let alone any other country) has got to be the biggest joke of the century.

Wankers.


----------



## luutzu (9 August 2016)

dutchie said:


> 'A country on the fringes of civilisation': Chinese state-owned paper calls Australia an 'offshore prison' in savage attack after Mack Horton outed Sun Yang as a drug cheat
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...called-Sun-Yang-drug-cheat.html#ixzz4GoGPtdzV
> 
> ...




During the waning years of Qing's China, the title for their Secretary of State was something like "Supreme Handler of Barbarians" - to deal with the White folks. 

Racism isn't just a European thing.


----------



## CanOz (9 August 2016)

Mainlander's consider themselves more civilized and advanced than foreigners because of their lack of body hair as well.


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2016)

dutchie said:


> 'A country on the fringes of civilisation': Chinese state-owned paper calls Australia an 'offshore prison' in savage attack after Mack Horton outed Sun Yang as a drug cheat
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...called-Sun-Yang-drug-cheat.html#ixzz4GoGPtdzV
> 
> ...




Who cares. The POMs spent generations feeling cheated they lost their finest and best to migration into Oz. The intelligent Chinese can't wait to get on a plane and seek refuge here from the herd.

It's typical of Chinese and other mindless drone countries to berate Australians for individuals having an opinion of their own, without the state telling them what to say. 

He told the truth and the Barbarians don't like it.


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> Mainlander's consider themselves more civilized and advanced than foreigners because of their lack of body hair as well.




I always found them sneaky and infantile


----------



## drsmith (21 August 2016)

ABC article,



> Chinese donors to Australian political parties: who gave how much?




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-political-donations/7766654

The breakdown is ~$4.0m to Labor and ~$2.1m to the Lib/Nats combined.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I always found them sneaky and infantile




That was not at all like them Mainlanders dishing big hairy white apes as uncivilised.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> ABC article,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sure they donates more than that.

That one Chinese who bought Packer's mansion for $70M [?]... he didn't pay that for the pleasure of living in it - paid so Packer can call up a few friends in Canberra and elsewhere. He didn't even donate to UTS their new school of business building for the love of learning either.


I think us plebs are too occupied with race, religion, nationalism and all that purity fluff. It seems to me that the leaders of mankind doesn't give a hoot about any of that nonsense - they're all about making deals and fine dinning, banquetie stuff.

It's only they didn't get to have their cakes and eat it a few times that they'd give some fine speeches about men and country and honour and we go fight their battles for them.


----------



## sptrawler (21 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Who cares. The POMs spent generations feeling cheated they lost their finest and best to migration into Oz. The intelligent Chinese can't wait to get on a plane and seek refuge here from the herd.
> 
> It's typical of Chinese and other mindless drone countries to berate Australians for individuals having an opinion of their own, without the state telling them what to say.
> 
> He told the truth and the Barbarians don't like it.




We don't have the State telling us what to do, we have the press doing that. 

We are so busy wallowing in our own importance, the real game is eroding away, what makes us a First World Country.

You tell me, what do we offer the World, that Mexico or Brazil don't?

Yet they don't enjoy our lifestyle.


----------



## sptrawler (21 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> I'm sure they donates more than that.
> 
> That one Chinese who bought Packer's mansion for $70M [?]... he didn't pay that for the pleasure of living in it - paid so Packer can call up a few friends in Canberra and elsewhere. He didn't even donate to UTS their new school of business building for the love of learning either.
> 
> ...




The way it is going, we won't own anything but debt, our companies will be majority overseas owned, our farmland will be slowly swallowed up by overseas investors.
So we will end up owning the mortgage on our homes, which produce nothing, and will be payed for by our employment in an overseas owned company. 
Magic


----------



## luutzu (22 August 2016)

sptrawler said:


> The way it is going, we won't own anything but debt, our companies will be majority overseas owned, our farmland will be slowly swallowed up by overseas investors.
> So we will end up owning the mortgage on our homes, which produce nothing, and will be payed for by our employment in an overseas owned company.
> Magic




They'll also own the bank that own them mortgages of ours too.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2016)

They already own our politicians.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-political-donations/7766654


----------



## sr20de (27 August 2016)

PHILIPPINES’ DUTERTE WARNS CHINA OF ‘RECKONING’
"There will come a time that we will have to do some reckoning about this..."

http://www.infowars.com/philippines-duterte-warns-china-of-reckoning/
https://www.yahoo.com/news/philippines-duterte-warns-china-reckoning-103657705.html

I am not so sure the Chinese Government is making too many friends over the South China Sea claims.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 September 2016)

One small victory (maybe).



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-...ght-to-stop-chinese-copies-of-sawmill/7848394


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2016)

Not good news for the global economy and especially Australia.


China is up to it's neck in debt and it's economy is slowing. The 'Big Crunch' could be just around the corner.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-26/china-warned-to-rein-in-debt/7878426


----------



## luutzu (26 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Not good news for the global economy and especially Australia.
> 
> 
> China is up to it's neck in debt and it's economy is slowing. The 'Big Crunch' could be just around the corner.
> ...




Hopefully Australia would start that infrastructure boom we've been promised. There are a number of roads and rail projects around, better accelerate before China thought to start a war or two to put its would-be rebels to some nation-building work.


----------



## dutchie (19 October 2016)

Both Russia and China can see the weakness in the influence of the USA.

It will be a test between those two powers (C & R) to own the world. Manufacturing power versus raw materials power.

The US is pathetic. Just look at the two people running for the top job there. They would be better off with Rudd (yes, that's how terrible Trump and Hillary are). (Don't worry about the UN job Kevin, go for POTUS!! )

Australia will need to strengthen its borders/immigration and become more self sufficient.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 November 2016)

A bit of a worry...

Chinese spies in Australia on the rise, former diplomat Chen Yonglin says

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-20/how-many-spies-does-china-have-in-australia/8041004


----------



## superbatman (24 November 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It is really hard to see, how China won't end up owning everything.
> 
> Most manufacturers have relocated their production base to China, the country is completely controlled by the Government, which directly funds all facets of development.
> It is difficult to see how they will fail.IMO
> ...







I dont think we need to worry about such a holocaust. Hope soon the peoples of china will fight against their govt. Most of the common people are living there below poverty level ((The condition is wort than that in North Korea).
  The another thing is that the people in Beijing will abandon that city within 100 years if the pollution rate is not controlled.


----------



## noco (13 December 2016)

Hard  Facts on China..   

In 2010, China produced 11 times more steel than the United States.




New World Record: China made and sold 18 million vehicles in 2010.




 There are more pigs in China than in the next
43 pork producing nations combined.


China currently has the world’s fastest train and
the world’s largest high-speed rail network.


China is currently the number one producer in the
world of wind and solar power, but don't use it
themselves. While they manufacture 80% of the
world's solar panels, they install less than 5% and
build a new coal fired power station every week.
In one year they turn on more new coal powered
electricity than Australia's total output.




 China currently controls more than 90% of the
total global supply of rare earth elements.




In the past 15 years, China has moved from 14th
place to 2nd place in the world in published scientific
research articles.





China now possesses the fastest supercomputer on
the entire globe.





At the end of March 2011, China accumulated US$3.04
trillion in foreign currency reserves--the  largest
stockpile on the entire globe.





Chinese people consume 50,000 cigarettes every second.





They are already the largest carbon dioxide emitter and
their output will rise 70% by 2020.
~*~*~*~*~*~And we think we're saving the planet?! It will not make
one iota of difference what we do in Australia, Canada,
the United States or anywhere else in the world for that
matter. All the politicians are doing is increasing our
cost of living and making our manufacturers uncompetitive
in the world market, with their idiotic carbon tax.
When countries like China are growing and consuming
at these extraordinary rates! Time to wake up!


----------



## luutzu (13 December 2016)

noco said:


> Hard  Facts on China..
> 
> In 2010, China produced 11 times more steel than the United States.
> 
> ...





I don't think the takeaway from that (Chinese takeaway, get it ) is we Aussies should just ramp up the mines and sell our natural resources like it'll always be around to sell.

It's not an either/or issue either. We can sell our fossil while keeping to international and generational obligation... that while we progress into cleaner alternatives, Australia can start to invest in R&D, education and training for such new leap in technology. 

I know I know, we're doing it... but not with the urgency, and seemingly not with the kind of bucks that's necessary to be in a position to set standards and start that high-tech manufacturing that's essential to not just human survival, but Australia's own economic well being. 

Saw an old John Pilger doco - The Mexican - recently and there are lessons Australia can draw from it. For one, if a finite, national, resource aren't shared and distributed equitably; if not re-invested into education and advanced training... that promised innovation boom will be just a dud.

Then as wealth are concentrated into the multi-nationals, the stateless elite with absolutely no loyalty to any particular country or people... all that shared wealth will be trickled down all over the world's high-priced economic and power centres.. of which Australia have but one - Lakemba. 

As the old saying Pilger repeats of Mexico - too far from God and too close to the United States.

Australia is too far from the United States but too close to a rising, hungry, thirsty, overpopulated China.

So we might to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time.


----------



## CanOz (13 December 2016)

noco said:


> Hard  Facts on China..
> 
> In 2010, China produced 11 times more steel than the United States.
> 
> ...




Noco, whilst these stats are certainly relevant and interesting, I'd caution you on using data that is 5 years old in relation to China.....2 years in China is a decade in developed markets. The key here is also volatility in the statistics...


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> I don't think the takeaway from that (Chinese takeaway, get it ) is we Aussies should just ramp up the mines and sell our natural resources like it'll always be around to sell.
> 
> It's not an either/or issue either. We can sell our fossil while keeping to international and generational obligation... that while we progress into cleaner alternatives, Australia can start to invest in R&D, education and training for such new leap in technology.
> 
> ...




It is really funny, but the only politician who seems to understand the issue, is Brendan Grylls from W.A

Everyone is trying to discredit him, it is a weird situation, he is purporting the only sensible way of receiving fair value for our finite resources and politicians are shouting him down.

Is there any wonder Pauline is doing well, the rest of them are obviously enamoured by mining CEO's.


----------



## luutzu (14 December 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It is really funny, but the only politician who seems to understand the issue, is Brendan Grylls from W.A
> 
> Everyone is trying to discredit him, it is a weird situation, he is purporting the only sensible way of receiving fair value for our finite resources and politicians are shouting him down.
> 
> Is there any wonder Pauline is doing well, the rest of them are obviously enamoured by mining CEO's.




I gotta remember that "enamoured" word. It upgrades my dictionary of insults 

A bit tragic that our common wealth are given away to the selected few like that. The taxes are practically nothing, and whatever rate that's reduced to, they're still not paying it anyway. I mean, selling to a subsidiary in low rate Singapore or Ireland, then book a pittance of a profit; then take it all back in the downturn when they write off assets to claim losses. WTF.

Wife was reading that the top 30 Australian companies do not pay income tax at all. This corporate welfare is just unbelievable.

Man, I thought going to business school and build a career in finance mean I'll invest and grow business that build and do things. Didn't know it was just a much nicer way to be on welfare.

Shouldn't complain too much when others are doing me a favour, I guess.


----------



## Tisme (14 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> I gotta remember that "enamoured" word. It upgrades my dictionary of insults
> 
> .




It's pretty obvious you are enamoured with Bill Shorten and the unions, even though his government over the last 3+ years hasn't produced anything of substance and now we see our AAA credit rating in jeopardy as a result. When will you take a shake to yourself luutzu and see the only way forward is with a progressive liberal government that only the LNP can deliver.

When they (lnp) get back in, and get back in they will after the nation gives this lot of pinko losers and union slaves the toss, there will be some real changes that lets China know we value our resources and they have to pay top dollar, yes top dollar for our holes in the ground... and forget about trying to buy our farms using phony domestic ownership fronts.


----------



## luutzu (14 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> It's pretty obvious you are enamoured with Bill Shorten and the unions, even though his government over the last 3+ years hasn't produced anything of substance and now we see our AAA credit rating in jeopardy as a result. When will you take a shake to yourself luutzu and see the only way forward is with a progressive liberal government that only the LNP can deliver.
> 
> When they (lnp) get back in, and get back in they will after the nation gives this lot of pinko losers and union slaves the toss, there will be some real changes that lets China know we value our resources and they have to pay top dollar, yes top dollar for our holes in the ground... and forget about trying to buy our farms using phony domestic ownership fronts.




LNP is the Liberal National Party, yes? 

See, now I get it. Got to appreciate that there are people whose English (or politics) is a secondary language and if certain things aren't spelled out, they will get enamoured to your humour and jibe. Most of which are pretty good, after a few readings, McGregor.

There's nothing phony about our Gina's role in that Kidman deal. She simply find it a great investment opportunity where she get to own more land, some of which might have more Iron and Ores; and the Chinese will buy more of her existing ore inventory (at reasonable rates)... and after enough time, pinky promised to put in more cash if her operations ever need to expand - or run out of cash.

It's the virtuous circle of capitalism where you use your citizenship and a few good senators in that pocket deep pocket of yours to circumvent the national interest laws, and I'll rub your back. 

And we laugh at the stupid ancient Chinese for putting merchants and profiteers on the lowest runk of the social order.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> LNP is the Liberal National Party, yes?
> 
> See, now I get it. Got to appreciate that there are people whose English (or politics) is a secondary language and if certain things aren't spelled out, they will get enamoured to your humour and jibe. Most of which are pretty good, after a few readings, McGregor.
> 
> ...




It doesn't matter how slowly you go, as long as you keep going.

Are you sure you aren't related to Confucius.


----------



## luutzu (15 December 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It doesn't matter how slowly you go, as long as you keep going.
> 
> Are you sure you aren't related to Confucius.




Confucius says, all Man are Brothers. Hence all Man are related to Master Kong.


----------



## ReXXar (15 December 2016)

It seems in the West we're so preoccupied with this question, having lived and worked in China for a few years, if you ask an average Chinese person would China own the world, generally their first reaction is one of surprise and something along the lines of "why would we even want to??"  If anything in the last 5,000 years of their history is anything to go by, global conquest has never been in their blood, its an ethnic-nation state that seeks respect amongst its neighbours and no major power encroaching their sphere of influence.  They opened up to the US because Soviet Union was encroaching on its borders, now its preparing for war with US as US has surrounded their coast, do a bit of reverse psychology, would what US do if China was armed to the teeth along the US border and sending weapons to Hawai?  China's geopolitics today is defined by its defeat from the 8 nation alliance preceding conquest by Japan in WW2, something we're not even taught in schools.

Frankly we should be most worried about the complete incompetency of our politicians.  I honestly do think our politicians are one of the most lazy and incompetent in the world, at least in Pacific countries the leaders don't pretend they're competent.  Look at the mining boom, we COMPLETELY squandered all the money.  Singapore, a little island nation and Norway who discovered offshore oil quickly set up a public fund to take advantage of the ensuing economic boom.  I been working in the Pacific last 2 years and DFAT staff and expats bring this superiority attitude to them when they're the most incompetent and inefficient fools I have ever met when it comes to work, their Japanese counterparts achieve far more results with 10 times less resource.  Australian politicians make me ashamed frankly, this country is about a decade behind in technology behind China or US.  In school we don't learn anything about our neighbour's history, in primary or high school I was never taught about Indonesian history, its like our neighbours don't even exist.  We spend billions and billions on the war in Afghanistan and doing horrible horrible things to civilians there, we're in reality a US puppet and none of this gets reported in the media.  I think it all comes down to race, what if Chinese people looked European and US looked like Chinese, will there be a change in foreign policy?  Singapore PM Lee Kuan Kew warned we might become the "white trash" of Asia, in reality we already are.  Let's fix ourselves before blaming others.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2016)

ReXXar said:


> Let's fix ourselves before blaming others.




Dead right. 

We have been lecturing Asia for decades on human rights and "rule of law" and have been too stupid to realise that they don't give a stuff about our values and our ideas, they are white man's values that don't apply to to them.

What Asians respect most imo are success and power. 

The Japanese, South Koreans , Singaporeans, Chinese and Malaysians have worked damn hard to lift their economy and living standards while us Anglo Saxons have bummed around on the beach, taken our resources for granted and not invested in technology, infrastructure and education so we can keep ahead in changing times.

Asia has every right to look down on us as our chickens come home to roost as evidenced by our appalling education results among other things.

You are quite right about the standard of our politicians. We haven't had a good government since Hawke/Keating.

Costello did a good job getting our finances in shape, but Howard squandered it on middle class welfare that created a structural deficit when ore prices dropped.

Sadly I don't see salvation on either side of politics at the moment.


----------



## Tisme (15 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Dead right.
> 
> We have been lecturing Asia for decades on human rights and "rule of law" and have been too stupid to realise that they don't give a stuff about our values and our ideas, they are white man's values that don't apply to to them.
> 
> ...




I went to the flicks last night to watch Office Christmas Party. The film itself is weak, but there is an undertone that I think the US election result reflected, in the guise of the Kate McKinnon character. She is the HR woman who runs around making sure the staff can't do and that they stay within the confines of the mundane no risk beige normalcy. 

I truly believe we have seized on the opportunity to coast our way through life using these rules of behaviour to justify doing nothing. We bleat about political correctness, but take umbrage at someone teasing us on the internet. We call anyone who disagrees with our choice pf brain washing a bigot as if there is something wrong with being a bigot instead of falling into line with the mob.

What incentive is there to risk the $130k job repurposing words into unimplementable policy and actually get out and produce something for $70k pa? There isn't any. We have allowed the paper pushers to become the masters and the paid elite and they don't have any skills for industry, value adding, education, technology and services,.... we are are stuck with a GDP that is  biased with a vastly dominant services sector that is valued for the "production" calculation on the "renumeration/income" calculation ... it's a bootstrap equation that hangs precariously on the third "demand" ink in the chain ... which is why the rising hysteria about people needing to spend for king and country.


----------



## ReXXar (17 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I went to the flicks last night to watch Office Christmas Party. The film itself is weak, but there is an undertone that I think the US election result reflected, in the guise of the Kate McKinnon character. She is the HR woman who runs around making sure the staff can't do and that they stay within the confines of the mundane no risk beige normalcy.
> 
> I truly believe we have seized on the opportunity to coast our way through life using these rules of behaviour to justify doing nothing. We bleat about political correctness, but take umbrage at someone teasing us on the internet. We call anyone who disagrees with our choice pf brain washing a bigot as if there is something wrong with being a bigot instead of falling into line with the mob.
> 
> What incentive is there to risk the $130k job repurposing words into unimplementable policy and actually get out and produce something for $70k pa? There isn't any. We have allowed the paper pushers to become the masters and the paid elite and they don't have any skills for industry, value adding, education, technology and services,.... we are are stuck with a GDP that is  biased with a vastly dominant services sector that is valued for the "production" calculation on the "renumeration/income" calculation ... it's a bootstrap equation that hangs precariously on the third "demand" ink in the chain ... which is why the rising hysteria about people needing to spend for king and country.




I think this post just hit the nail on its head.  Excellent post.  This is the core of our problem.


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I went to the flicks last night to watch Office Christmas Party. The film itself is weak, but there is an undertone that I think the US election result reflected, in the guise of the Kate McKinnon character. She is the HR woman who runs around making sure the staff can't do and that they stay within the confines of the mundane no risk beige normalcy.
> 
> I truly believe we have seized on the opportunity to coast our way through life using these rules of behaviour to justify doing nothing. We bleat about political correctness, but take umbrage at someone teasing us on the internet. We call anyone who disagrees with our choice pf brain washing a bigot as if there is something wrong with being a bigot instead of falling into line with the mob.
> 
> What incentive is there to risk the $130k job repurposing words into unimplementable policy and actually get out and produce something for $70k pa? There isn't any. We have allowed the paper pushers to become the masters and the paid elite and they don't have any skills for industry, value adding, education, technology and services,.... we are are stuck with a GDP that is  biased with a vastly dominant services sector that is valued for the "production" calculation on the "renumeration/income" calculation ... it's a bootstrap equation that hangs precariously on the third "demand" ink in the chain ... which is why the rising hysteria about people needing to spend for king and country.



Nice post Tism, except that I truly believe this has not just "happened" but is being doctored by the top rulers: be they in charge of government or a too big to fail bank; The brain washing is there, the propaganda so crude for anyone with a brain, and as you stated, with the mass of people involved in brainless task, we are turned into a mass of idiots, robots forcefed goods and debts to create this demand and these GDP figures so adored. This is not what either socialism or capitalism was supposed to be, we got the worst of both in one package


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2016)

China continues to militarise the South China Sea.

What will/can/should the US do about it ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-17/us-australia-urged-to-get-tough-over-south-china-sea/8128742


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> China continues to militarise the South China Sea.
> 
> What will/can/should the US do about it ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-17/us-australia-urged-to-get-tough-over-south-china-sea/8128742




And what should we do about it as well ?

Should we accept US missile bases on our soil as a counter to the Chinese ?


----------



## noco (17 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And what should we do about it as well ?
> 
> Should we accept US missile bases on our soil as a counter to the Chinese ?




I would suggest you talk to Labor senator Sam Dystiari.


----------



## luutzu (17 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And what should we do about it as well ?
> 
> Should we accept US missile bases on our soil as a counter to the Chinese ?




Should catch John Pilger's The Coming War on China. 

He sure give us another perspective.

Australia doesn't have much of a say regarding US bases and other US Security arrangements. We should just be grateful that we aren't Mexico or the Middle East.

What should the US do; or what should Australia do if it were to pick... I guess playing both sides and keeping walking that fine line we've been on should serve us well enough.

But if the US is getting as aggressive as the recent tweets and phone call from The Donald got started, it's not going to end very well for Australia.

So Trump have yet to take office and already, since that phone call to or from Taiwan and the Phillipines, the Chinese isn't happy enough that they've flown a few jets close to Taiwan; held live-fire exercises on its first Carrier and a small fleet; started a trade war with US automakers in China; and a couple days ago captured a US marine drone literally testing the waters near what China claim to be its "ancestral land".

The US, like it had done since de-colonisation, will not let what it considered a third-rate power trying to flex its muscle. That would set a bad example, and will of course embolden more than a handful of Admirals and warmongers in Beijing. 

So if the US go economic warfare, Australia's export is stuffed; if it goes proxy, we're one of the proxies; if it goes nuclear, we're all stuffed.

Maybe we should get Greg Norman to give Trump another call?


----------



## ReXXar (20 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> Should catch John Pilger's The Coming War on China.
> 
> He sure give us another perspective.
> 
> ...




Where did you find that film "The Coming War on China"? I've heard about it and it has received excellent reviews, but it seems it is only shown in the UK


----------



## luutzu (20 December 2016)

ReXXar said:


> Where did you find that film "The Coming War on China"? I've heard about it and it has received excellent reviews, but it seems it is only shown in the UK




Someone told me Torrents. 

Apparently you download a torrent app (if you haven't got one. Micro Torrent is alright to use.), have that app running and use the link below.

Click on its "Get This Torrent" and the torrent app should open, asking where to save to.

https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/16455385/The.Coming.War.on.China.ITV.WEBRip.AAC2.0.x264-RTN


John Pilger have a YouTube channel of, I think, all his previous films/documentaries. This will eventually go there so I'm sure he doesn't mind we watch it now.

---------------

It does look like the US (and us Aussies) are heading to war with China. 

If it's the best kind of war - economic - hundreds of millions will see their lives and livelihood destroy; if it's the typical proxy - like ones in the Ukraine and Syria - more than a couple countries in Asia will be destroy; and if it go nuclear, accidental or otherwise, we're all doomed.


----------



## dutchie (11 June 2017)

Perfect.

China's Communist Party seeks news influence through Australian media deals

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-...-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754

Not only will you be getting bullsh#t from the Australia media but you will be getting bullsh#t from China as well.


----------



## moXJO (11 June 2017)

dutchie said:


> Perfect.
> 
> China's Communist Party seeks news influence through Australian media deals
> 
> ...



US probably pushed for that to be published. There has been a distinct shift against China in certain media. Gotta wonder if our government was given the hard word.


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## SirRumpole (11 June 2017)

Michelle Guthrie knows the meaning of the word 'propaganda'. She used to work for Murdoch.


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2017)

Well it is good to see China has a belief in W.A's industrial strip.

https://thewest.com.au/business/con...-good-sign-for-wa-lithium-plays-ng-b88512862z

The place they are going to install it, is right where BHP, used to have a blast furnace.


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2017)

I guess if we don't want the coal, best to off load it to someone else.

https://thewest.com.au/business/markets/rio-reaffirms-coal-assets-sale-to-yancoal-ng-s-1739806


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## SirRumpole (22 October 2017)

China's new soft power push could be dangerous for Australia experts say.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...r-beijing-one-belt-one-road-trade-bid/9074602


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## Wysiwyg (22 October 2017)

Consuming more of the finite.


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## luutzu (28 November 2017)

Not sure if this is Corporate America's way of asking for more funding, but it's reported that China's AI and tech is no longer an inferior knock-off. It's possibly on the verge of becoming a peer competitor.

btw, what the heck is Eric Schmidth of Google/Alphabet doing advising the Pentagon? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...i-military-edge-over-u-s-report-idUSKBN1DS0G5

Recently saw interviews and a lecture by US professor McAvoy on the decline of the American Empire [his latest book is "In the shadow of the American Empire"].

Fascinating analysis. 

Kicking off some 100 years ago in a lecture where some egghead explain how Euro-Asia is not two continent, but a single landmass being separated into two because of the massive emptiness between the two axis. 

How the European empires managed to escape from the barbarian hordes from the East, head further West and South, "discover" the natives weren't using deadly enough weapons so decided to help civilised them and became rich. 

Then how, after WWII, the American empire managed to take the French and British imperial holdings, linking up and controlling both the Western and Eastern axis of that Euro-Asian landmass and rule the world, I'm sure he meant free the world, for the past 70 odd years.

Now comes crunch time. 

China cannot, at present, match American military or economic might. But it doesn't really need to.
It simply try to make peace [buy off] neighbours it hasn't yet need to help liberate... decide which ones is ripe for picking... and decide where are the weak points in American defences and offence capability to strike at or challenge without serious resistance from the US or anyone. Say, taking over the entirety of the South China Sea.

Then there's the US dollar as the world's reserve currency. That's one of the main thing that managed to not bankrupt the US imperial machine: just print more money.

But like the British Pound some 5 decades ago... the moment the world do not see the need to have the pound as its reserve currency, the empire start goes into the sunset.

What causes the world to see the British as a has-been? Or see the US in the same way? Just some small, minor, relatively insignificant skirmish where it loses to an up and coming power.

He points to the Brits losing its prestige when it team up with the French and Israeli to take back "its" Suez Canal from Egypt in the 1950s. Sending men and arms into Egypt just to be told to go home when the yank dial the number.

Or, from what I read before... the Czarist Russia losing that battle to the rising imperial Japan. That battle lost the Russians most of its holdings in the East. Lost the Czar his rule.

Then there's Trump... who according to McAvoy [?] pretty much do everything to hasten the decline. From pizzing off allies like S.Korea, Japan and insulting our dear Turnbull... all within the first few days or something. Cancelling the TPP - which would seriously diminish the average American [and citizens of those countries who signed up]... take their rights, destroy much of what's left of their democratic liberties, screw them out of their economic security etc. etc. ... but, according to this guy, would at least take away the some 60% of the world's trade away from China.

With China's One Belt, One Road; the trade pact, IMF-equivalent. 

Interesting time ahead. Humanity might not live to see the next century.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Now comes crunch time.
> 
> China cannot, at present, match American military or economic might. But it doesn't really need to.
> It simply try to make peace [buy off] neighbours it hasn't yet need to help liberate... decide which ones is ripe for picking... and decide where are the weak points in American defences and offence capability to strike at or challenge without serious resistance from the US or anyone. Say, taking over the entirety of the South China Sea.
> ...




There has to be reason China is buying $h++ loads of Gold, maybe when the dust settles and the GFC becomes a non toxic topic, China may suggest the best way forward is to re establish a Gold standard.
All hypothetical, and I don't own gold or gold shares, but there is definitely a little bit of smoke.


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> There has to be reason China is buying $h++ loads of Gold, maybe when the dust settles and the GFC becomes a non toxic topic, China may suggest the best way forward is to re establish a Gold standard.
> All hypothetical, and I don't own gold or gold shares, but there is definitely a little bit of smoke.




Yea, it's a bit strange all these fiat currency.

I guess I should know why free floating money is a good thing but I never really understand why it's a good thing.

If money is not backed up by gold but by the promise of the US [and respective country's] treasurer... you have got to keep people's faith that your currency wouldn't be supplanted by another country's currency. Else it'll be worth as much, or less, than the paper it's printed on.

Not sure how serious or accurate this other analysis from former US chief of staff to Colin Powell is, but saw an interview where he said that one of these days when the US threaten to sanction another country, they'll just shrugged and go trade with China, or Russia. Maybe not Russia unless it's for oil and Vodka 

I remember reading a bio by the founder of Sony. He describe how back in the 50s and 60s, goods from Japan were considered cheap rubbish. Didn't take them long to ramp up the quality and manufacturing know-how. 

China is, from memory, already leading the world in solar panel manufacturing [and usage]. With those billions, and that's about to grow given the rescinding of that one-child policy just recently... that and their growing influence now and from the funding and management of those ports, rail, roads, grids around the world... what China adopts might be the new standard for future industries.


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## sptrawler (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, it's a bit strange all these fiat currency.
> 
> I guess I should know why free floating money is a good thing but I never really understand why it's a good thing.
> 
> ...




That is why Trump is pushing like hell, to crank up U.S production and penalise U.S companies off shoring production.
He has the right idea, but it is difficult in a capitalist system, to stop manufacturers from seeking the lowest labour costs.
This is where China has it all over the U.S, in a communist economy, it doesn't have the same outcome drivers.
All China wants to do, is get people working, whether it is profitable or not is secondary. Once you have the masses working, you can introduce taxation and increase the cost of the product.
They are starting from an extremely low cost base, compared to western countries, therefore the amount of money they can pour into product development and improvement is huge.
As you say it is much like Japan in the sixties, Jap $hit in 1962 turned into Honda 4 motor bikes and Honda Civics in the late 1960's, then came the Kwaka 9's.
The rest is history, now Chinese go to Japan to buy electrical goods, they don't look for made in U.K or made in U.S.


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> That is why Trump is pushing like hell, to crank up U.S production and penalise U.S companies off shoring production.
> He has the right idea, but it is difficult in a capitalist system, to stop manufacturers from seeking the lowest labour costs.
> This is where China has it all over the U.S, in a communist economy, it doesn't have the same outcome drivers.
> All China wants to do, is get people working, whether it is profitable or not is secondary. Once you have the masses working, you can introduce taxation and increase the cost of the product.
> ...




Trump should be doing what he says on these jobs and economic issue, just he knew it's all talk though.

Tax cuts, trade policies, removing environmental protection, consumer protection... 
His eviction of illegals are not done so Americans can have those jobs. Beside his racism, so he get  a personal kick out of it... he's simply following on Obama's policy of deportation. Just he's not as good a salesman and actor as Obama so he sounds like a racist a hole doing it.

I mean, illegals are removed because American Ag is automating all those labour jobs in the fields. No longer need them so off to the old home they go.



The way Clinton and later admin privatise the prison operations, it is more profitable for corporations that there are prisoners they can charge the gov't for. 

At some $40K per head per year... it's more gain and not much lost [as far as they're concerned] to not care too much about unemployed and desperate people committing non-violent crimes. 

When there's money to be made from excess population, there's not much incentive to keep them employed or trained too well. Particularly when you can also use high rate of unemployment to scare them out of asking "for too much" and/or automate their piecemeal work.

Though it might get to a point where it's no longer just the blacks and browns that's being screwed. White Americans are starting to also get shafted too... highest rate of suicide since ever; feeling of hopelessness and a lost of their country to poor brown and black people who's probably doing just as tough or a lot tougher. 

It's coming head to head and the US gov't either crack a lot more heads or use what little GDP it has left after upkeeping the imperial ventures... use it on the masses more than just putting it towards tax cuts for the rich and corporations.

It's actually one of the reasons the US ultimately withdrew from VN, "losing" the war there. Most of its key objectives have been met, businesses at home aren't all in the game and so are losing out, and there are rising unrest at home US generals can't have all their troops deployed else there's no one around to keep the peace at home. True story.

Compare that to China... they mostly shoot their prisoners and send the parents/relative the bill for the bullets, maybe the burial expense. So yea, more incentive to put people to work than locking them up.


----------



## dutchie (11 December 2017)

Will China end up owning the World? Maybe.

Except Australia.

(unless Labor get in for too long)


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2017)

If history repeats Pax Romana, Pax Brittannica and now Pax Americana will keep China from the top rung for a while yet.  

500years of Anglo Saxon "white man's " burden ain't over yet.


----------



## dutchie (11 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> If history repeats Pax Romana, Pax Brittannica and now Pax Americana will keep China from the top rung for a while yet.
> 
> 500years of Anglo Saxon "white man's " burden ain't over yet.




How long have we got?


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## Tisme (11 December 2017)

I'm guessing we inputted the the following into and equation, it might be interesting

Greek Empire 340 years
Roman Empire 500 years Pax 200 years
British Empire 400 years Pax 100 years
American Eempire 100 years Pax 70 years


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## sptrawler (11 December 2017)

China has really never been a warring nation, they built a wall to discourage Mongolian incursions, slowly and under the radar would be their option.IMO

http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/pages/key-outcomes.aspx


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## luutzu (11 December 2017)

US and Chinese "foreign aid" spending.


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## Tisme (11 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> US and Chinese "foreign aid" spending.
> 
> View attachment 85168
> View attachment 85169





North Korea seems rather pallid pink to me?


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> China has really never been a warring nation, they built a wall to discourage Mongolian incursions, slowly and under the radar would be their option.IMO
> 
> http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/pages/key-outcomes.aspx





You probably read that from a Beijing sponsored journalist/politician. 

*Eastern [Latter] Zhou's*
The Chou's empire split into various kingdoms during this Latter Chou's period.
The Chou emperor technically ruled, but power power pretty much resides in each of the state's warlord.

This 500 years were further split into two periods: The Spring and Autumn; The Warring States.

During these centuries, each state pretty much develop its own culture and dialect. Their kings and armies fought each or allied together to fight and defend against more powerful states.

Kinda like Europe being a Christian state, just aren't always peaceful and nice to each other.






*State of Qin [Chi'n]*
Chin'a is that puny state in the western desert after 250 years of the Spring and Autumn going into the Warring States.






*Chi'n Conquest*
The First Emperor sweep up the remaining 7 states, forming Chin [China].

Unifying the standards, currencies, hairstyle etc. Burrying a few thousand scholars and burning a few libraries... kill a few terrorists no doubt.

Soon after the First Emperor's death, the state of Han and Chu vied for hegemony. 

Well, Chu pretty much sweep over the Chi'n, create Han as one of its tiny vassal state. But Liu Bang has other ideas and soon take over Chu, establishing the Han Dynasty.

It was under Han Wu, Liu Bang's great, grandson [?] that Confucian was established to unified the various cultures into a Han majority [aka Chinese] people.

And that's only the beginning... 

The Koreas was a united vassal state. Vietnam was subjugated on and off for over a thousand years. Japan was another vassal...







Han Wu also established the Silk Road. A trade route that enriches and established Han's China as the Middle Kingdom.

Say hello to the new Silk Road:


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> North Korea seems rather pallid pink to me?




There's only so much Lil'Kim can eat. You don't want to kill the guy, I mean, he doesn't look in shape to have offspring anytime soon and if he goes, the Yank will be right on the border and you'd have to fight it head on.


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing we inputted the the following into and equation, it might be interesting
> 
> Greek Empire 340 years
> Roman Empire 500 years Pax 200 years
> ...




If Uncle Rupee's success and failure is any guide, the Chinese really know how to take people's money and gave them diddly in return.

Rupert tried to enter China as he did with the US and the UK.

Who's dictating good taste and national pride in those countries? 

Well, for his billions spent, the Chinese gave him a wife. Here, you take. She treat you real nice.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2017)

Iuutzu,
China fought of the Japanese, with the help of the U.S and Russia, in the second world war.
I'm not trying to be derogatory of the Chinese, far from it, they haven't instigated many international conflicts at all.
It would appear the only time they have got agro, is about the South China sea.
I think they are playing the long game, and it will be interesting to see, how the established Western cultures combat it.
The established western capitalist systems work on a principle of, *who ever can afford it, buys it.*
That is great, until the competition has has a whole lot more money than you, then they can just buy up your competition. LOL
Then when they own all your profit making companies, what do you do?
Well bottom line, you become just another 3rd world labour market.LOL


----------



## luutzu (12 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Iuutzu,
> China fought of the Japanese, with the help of the U.S and Russia, in the second world war.
> I'm not trying to be derogatory of the Chinese, far from it, they haven't instigated many international conflicts at all.
> It would appear the only time they have got agro, is about the South China sea.
> ...




Yea, true, they are definitely playing the long game. 

The one good thing about China vs the West, at least the capitalist West as we've come to be taught past few decades, is that the Chinese culture do not put merchants on top of the ladder. 

Capitalists countries for some reason make it a good and great thing to be greedy and individualistic. 

I mean, not that the Chinese aren't greedy or self-interested... I've met a few Mainland tourists myself and they have a talent for jumping queues and ignoring your Oi! WTF? 

But yea, the Chinese can buy and own most of our national assets... but that doesn't make much difference nowadays. I mean, what self-respecting billionaire pay proper taxes to their country anyway. And what kind of CEO or Board would reject a takeover offer 30% above prevailing market capitalisation. 

We're fast approaching a 3rd world status because the enterprising elite got our politicians by the short and curleys. That and most politicians like it that way anyway so we peasants are stuffed. 

-----------

As to the US and Russia/Soviets helping China defeating Imperial Japan... yes and no.

They did help but pretty much help Sun Yat Sen's Republican army. And they didn't step up the effort until after the two nukes on Japan anyway.

By then, post '45... The US/West was helping Sun's capitalist successor Chiang Kai Sek [?] against the Godless commies Mao and his band of peasants.

Stalin help Mao... and actually advised him to let the South go to Chiang.

Mao knew that that's how you divide and weaken a united China... Chiang knew it too but something, something he lost to Mao and retreated to Taiwan and rule that island as "China". 

--------

Yea, China just took the two seas and all the fisheries, resources and other people's stuff within it. 
It's quite a clever move. Very rare to take so vast an area with barely a few shots fired. Well, a few (South) VNese soldiers died back in the 1970s trying to defend some part of it to themselves but Uncle Sam tell them to back off. Something they shouldn't have done, maybe?

Now both sides are giving foreign "aid" the VN and the Phillipines. Whoever accept one side over the other get to catch cancer or a democratic uprising


----------



## vivazebull (12 December 2017)

It seems like China have many long term strategies. I haven't even passed first year business but at the current clip, if I was one of those "imperialism under the guise of Marxism" types, I would be tempted to wait for the Western companies to automate themselves to an impoverished consumer base, then start offloading government bonds, or swooping in on the resulting lower markets, as things like consumer purchasing power and property markets suffer from a growing army of welfare recipients who have been automated out of a job. The potential of the work being done by FBR is one of many examples of future labor market threats, and long term I can see many people will seek the services of companies like FLN out of desperation as things become more competitive. Ultimately, IVC will profit from the whole shebang for a while yet, as grim as I may sound.
The good 'ol bible hints about the Yanks uniting with the Vatican at the end, it would discredit a lot of theology scholars if that doesn't eventuate, but I suppose they are just the fairies at the bottom of the garden anyways.
My two cents.


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## dutchie (12 December 2017)

"BEIJING has accused the Australian media of “paranoid” and “racist” reporting on China, amid growing concerns in Australia over Chinese interference.

“[We] suggest the Australian government and the media that they should uphold the principle of truth from facts and reject political prejudices and paranoia when handling relations with China,” according to an op-ed in the People’s Daily, the official mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party, on Monday."

Ha ha ha ha ha , rofl, ha ha ha ha ha, rofl, ha ha
Best laugh of the year.
Most paranoid and racist country in the world tells us off!
Ha ha ha ha ha , rofl, ha ha ha ha ha, rofl, ha ha

Talk about losing face spouting that sort of drivel.


https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...a/news-story/4cc8d70b3797447cb65ca90b0398ae8d


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## dutchie (14 December 2017)

China may not own the world but it may own us if we are not vigilant.

All Chinese donations must be rejected, especially to politicians.

*The Chinese Communist Party's power and influence in Australia*
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-...rtys-power-and-influence-in-australia/8584270

Part of this campaign involves attempts to influence Australian politicians via political donors closely aligned with the Communist Party — something that causes serious concern to Australia's security agency, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO).

But some of the 1 million ethnic Chinese living in Australia are also targets of the Communist Party's influence operations.

*On university campuses, in the Chinese-language media and in some community groups, the party is mounting an influence-and-control operation among its diaspora that is far greater in scale and, at its worst, much nastier than any other nation deploys.*

In China, it is known as qiaowu.

(my bolds)


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## dutchie (20 December 2017)

China has no respect for the rest of the world.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...iolate-taiwanese-korean-and-japanese-airspace

Chinese Fighters Violate Taiwanese, Korean And Japanese Airspace

In keeping with China’s strategy of methodically encroaching on its geopolitical rivals via air force and naval drills in the Pacific, both Japan and South Korea scrambled fighter jets earlier this week as China suddenly expanded the scope of naval drills being held in the waters off the Korean peninsula.



Do we want this rogue country to interfere with our sovereignty?


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## Tisme (21 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> China may not own the world but it may own us if we are not vigilant.
> 
> All Chinese donations must be rejected, especially to politicians.
> 
> ...





If Americans started buying houses and migrating to Oz in the same number as the recent Chinese, we'd all be asking ourselves why it's happening and what the agenda is. It seems that no one appreciates the perennial psyche of "china homeland first" and the duty to its prosperity at the expense of foreigners.


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## dutchie (22 December 2017)

Chinese blackmail.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/00558abc6d9011bc8f4ef7e2ed63d70f


"Chinese officials have warned of a consumer-led boycott of Australian products following the breakdown in relations between the two countries, fuelled by Malcolm Turnbull’s foreign interference laws and pushback against Chinese influence in the Asia-Pacific region.

_The Australian_ understands there have been talks in China about indirectly pulling economic levers — potentially targeting consumer products, tourism and education — that could threaten Australian industry and businesses. The Chinese warning, which would mirror a boycott of products imported from The Philippines after the countries fell out over South China Sea sovereignty claims, was levelled at Australia in the wake of deteriorating diplomatic relations between Beijing and Canberra."

Look we've got to keep letting China spy on us and letting them influence our politicians, if we want to keep selling them stuff.

Charming country.


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## luutzu (24 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> Chinese blackmail.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/00558abc6d9011bc8f4ef7e2ed63d70f
> 
> ...




All countries tries to pull that on every other country. So don't take it personally. That and it'd be considered traitorous if their spies and diplomats don't do what their leaders think is best for the "national" interests.

Second, if our politicians and "servants" can be influenced and bought... maybe the guilty party is one that neglect their duties and serve two masters... well, one master, the one with a bigger cash offer.


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## sptrawler (4 January 2018)

There is talk of a new landing strip being built in the W.A wheat belt, to take International flights if Perth is fogged in, for the London / Perth long haul flights.
I wonder if China will stump up the money? apparently they own Merredin airport, for pilot training.
I'm sure they would find the money to upgrade to International standard, for a lease agreement.

https://thewest.com.au/business/avi...edin-airport-sparks-controversy-ng-b88705220z


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## luutzu (11 April 2018)

South to North water transfer.

Looks impressive. Wow! 

A few years ago some US strategic analyst was saying that China is running out of water... which I think was true at the time. But these kind of projects might change that dynamic in a hurry.

They might even drain and divert water from Tibet and those mountains. Starving the Mekong and stuff.


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## noirua (11 April 2018)

In terms of area alone China is a small country compared with Russia. At some stage Russia will harness more energy from the sun and seas and build enclosed or underground cities in Siberia.


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## luutzu (11 April 2018)

noirua said:


> In terms of area alone China is a small country compared with Russia. At some stage Russia will harness more energy from the sun and seas and build enclosed or underground cities in Siberia.




Yea true. But they got to survive the current trade and military wars with the US and its allies first.

Heard that China practically own Siberia already. It's so far from Moscow and so close to Beijing, with trade and Chinese investments flooding the place it might as well be China's. 

Maybe I don't read enough Australian stuff, but it doesn't sound like we're doing too many great things lately. 

The NBN is, I guess, chugging along. There's a few sets of rolling stocks and tramlines. And I supposed there's all those new apartment blocks... 

Really need one of those major, mind boggling projects to inspire the masses... and maybe even be useful and productive.


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## Redbeard (12 April 2018)

Yep!!!!!!!


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## Redbeard (12 April 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> This sort of **** going on in Melbourne infuriates me.  I don't live in such a salubrious suburb as Toorak, but the way these Chinese come in and do this is just so goddamn offensive.  A magnificent old home levelled.  They have no concept of architectural beauty, nor appreciation of nature.




Unfortunately thats because of the rules surrounding their "investment" into Australia (set up by the immigration/tax/customs depts) which says investments can only be on new buildings ,, so they flatten the old one!


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## Redbeard (12 April 2018)

Its all about rules ,, we let them do it , so they do...  If we goto China/Asia they dont let us, so we dont.  
In most Asian countries , foreigners cannot buy actual "dirt".  Its just banned plain and simple...  but no-one calls them racists, they just accept it.    Would you like to buy a house block 1km from the city centre for 200K?  Yes ,, but you cant only local can.
IMO  ---  QUID PRO QUO...   if I let you do it in my country I should be able to do it in your country.


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## noirua (13 April 2018)

#XiJinping says strong navy serves as a key guarantee to achieve the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation http://xhne.ws/jwQYw 
Need to build a strong navy has never been more urgent than today, says President Xi when reviewing navy http://xhne.ws/sPvXc


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## Tisme (13 April 2018)

noirua said:


> #XiJinping says strong navy serves as a key guarantee to achieve the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation http://xhne.ws/jwQYw
> Need to build a strong navy has never been more urgent than today, says President Xi when reviewing navy http://xhne.ws/sPvXc





I suggest navies will sooner than later go the way of the HMS Hood.


----------



## luutzu (13 April 2018)

noirua said:


> #XiJinping says strong navy serves as a key guarantee to achieve the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation http://xhne.ws/jwQYw
> Need to build a strong navy has never been more urgent than today, says President Xi when reviewing navy http://xhne.ws/sPvXc




Where's Cher? 

What's with the uniform though. Are they expecting the troops to be in the literal water all day, hence the camouflage?


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## luutzu (13 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> I suggest navies will sooner than later go the way of the HMS Hood.




Didn't some Yank wrote that very influential book on the necessity for serious naval power if one hope to project power, I mean, freedom, around the world?

Rome was a little hamlet before it stole that Greek (?) warship design and within a generation controls the Mediterraneans. The Poms and most of Europe would still be in the Dark Ages if they didn't have a few vessels mapping the world. The Yanks would still be around the other side of the world etc. etc.

Yea... maybe planes and drones mean naval power is less relevant... But then there are those trade routes to protect; landing troops and supplies to fight on other people's land (and break their stuff) rather than on the homeland.


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## Gringotts Bank (14 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yea... maybe planes and drones mean naval power is less relevant...



Armies of drones and killer robots armed with chemical weapons means everything else is irrelevant.  Best we can hope for is a stalemate.  The nuclear arms race will be a mere blip compared to the advanced AI race.

I notice Vanuatu was conquered last night.  'Soft conquering' is the new thing because no one will stand up to you.  Move in under the premise of "helping the natives build infrastructure", then set about constructing a huge military base on Australia's doorstep.


----------



## dutchie (26 April 2018)

China will take over the world very easily. The US is soooooo weak.

*College Installs "Cry Closet" As Safe Space For Student Snowflakes*

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-25/college-installs-cry-closet-safe-space-student-snowflakes


----------



## luutzu (27 April 2018)

dutchie said:


> China will take over the world very easily. The US is soooooo weak.
> 
> *College Installs "Cry Closet" As Safe Space For Student Snowflakes*
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-25/college-installs-cry-closet-safe-space-student-snowflakes




Can't cry properly in that though. No sound insulation at all from the side view.

Looks like a prank though.

China is doing its second round of raising another $19Billion for its domestic chip industry. No more reliance on AMD and Intel soon enough.


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> Didn't some Yank wrote that very influential book on the necessity for serious naval power if one hope to project power, I mean, freedom, around the world?
> 
> Rome was a little hamlet before it stole that Greek (?) warship design and within a generation controls the Mediterraneans. The Poms and most of Europe would still be in the Dark Ages if they didn't have a few vessels mapping the world. The Yanks would still be around the other side of the world etc. etc.
> 
> Yea... maybe planes and drones mean naval power is less relevant... But then there are those trade routes to protect; landing troops and supplies to fight on other people's land (and break their stuff) rather than on the homeland.




Arsenal worked well for the Venetians until the New World became the place to be and Britain invented the industrial revolution in the late 1600s, early 1700s.


----------



## luutzu (27 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Arsenal worked well for the Venetians until the New World became the place to be and Britain invented the industrial revolution in the late 1600s, early 1700s.




Don't know much about the Venetians beside them being forced to live among the marshes... that and invented the Croissant to celebrate the end/expulsion of the Muslim in Spain [?].

btw, did you know that the Chinese also have Outlaws of the Marsh, aka "All man are brothers"... during the end of the Tang Dynasty [700AD?] 


Just check out Wikipedia and the Poms did kick off the Industrial Revolution, but around 1760s to the 1800s. I think they just got off the self torturing and burning of witches around the 1600s 

But yea, the Poms are alright. Some great achievements from such a tiny outpost of well spoken people.

I thought it was Gutenberg [German?] and his printing press that kind of started the Industrial Revolution... and it was the Yank, Eli Whitney [?] and his cotton gin, then his mass produced, interchangeable rifle manufacturing process - which I heard was practically what made it possible to kick the Poms out of the colonies for good in 1812... 

From that, then the butchers then Henry Ford perfect mass production through their specialised stations and production line... that results in today's cookie cutter goods, and services.

So it was the Yank that really... wait... there's that pin example in Adam Smith's classic I've only read a few pages of. But he's a Scot soo...

But then White people all look the same to me so alright, that's Britain 1: China 5000


----------



## Tisme (28 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> Don't know much about the Venetians beside them being forced to live among the marshes... that and invented the Croissant to celebrate the end/expulsion of the Muslim in Spain [?].
> 
> btw, did you know that the Chinese also have Outlaws of the Marsh, aka "All man are brothers"... during the end of the Tang Dynasty [700AD?]
> 
> ...




Before we were taught to be ashamed of our skincolour and pedigree, Australian children were taught a quaint subject labelled as social studies, history, whatever.

No matter what wiki tells you, the industrial revolution had its beginnings in circa 1700.  The American colonies became supply sides for the British machine and continued to be well after the civil war (Revolutionary War).

Arsenal is an island which produced state of the art war ships that continuously evolved to outpace other Mediterranean powers. It was fortified against secret stealing.

Yes I'm sure the Chinese invented Venice by virtue of the silk road,, which must have taken a lot of silkworms to build,


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Before we were taught to be ashamed of our skincolour and pedigree, Australian children were taught a quaint subject labelled as social studies, history, whatever.
> 
> No matter what wiki tells you, the industrial revolution had its beginnings in circa 1700.  The American colonies became supply sides for the British machine and continued to be well after the civil war (Revolutionary War).
> 
> ...




Yes, most of the world and its riches became supply side to British and European imperialism. Which kind of prove that all you need to rule the world is good arms and... maybe a religious text. 

The Silk Road weren't made of silk. It's mainly to transport goods out of China and silver and gold back into it. The most valuable good being silk, hence... yea, I know you know.  But probably don't realise that that road made many of the ancient world's trading centres what they were.

btw, is that where the word "arsenal" came from? 

------------

Can't really call the Revolutionary War the a civil war... I guess that's why the yank don't call it the First Civil War. 

Read Ben Franklin's bio and his retelling of his return to Boston (from Philadelphia) with a "foreign" currency that impresses his neighbours. Those from Boston consider those from another colony as foreigners... different laws, currency, people from various European states helps too.

In fact, Ken Burns The Civil War was saying that the United States weren't really a united state until after the Civil War... and that was when the US was maybe half the size it is today.  I mean, Jackson haven't yet driven the Spaniards out of Florida, Cuba wasn't yet taken... Texas and the West weren't yet annexed from Mexico etc. etc.

So to say that the Revolutionary War with 13 tiny colonies against crazy George was a civil war might imply the taking of credit for what the Yank and their spirit for freedom and democracy do after the poms were kicked out.


----------



## Tisme (29 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yes, most of the world and its riches became supply side to British and European imperialism. Which kind of prove that all you need to rule the world is good arms and... maybe a religious text.
> 
> The Silk Road weren't made of silk. It's mainly to transport goods out of China and silver and gold back into it. The most valuable good being silk, hence... yea, I know you know.  But probably don't realise that that road made many of the ancient world's trading centres what they were.
> 
> ...





Of course it was a civil war ....... even back then the Yanks did their best to put spin on fact. Revolutions are political upheavals for political change, whereas civil wars are civic upheavals for individual and collective rights.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Of course it was a civil war ....... even back then the Yanks did their best to put spin on fact. Revolutions are political upheavals for political change, whereas civil wars are civic upheavals for individual and collective rights.




But by your definition above, wouldn't it be a revolutionary war and not a civil one?

Thereafter came president Washington, not King Washington. i.e. the entire political structure was changed. I know, not all men were created equal after the poms were kicked out... some men were still superior to others. But the ruling elite did take turn running the place, giving pretence to democracy and having elections... King George and the poms decided to scour the Pacific for their new supply source.


----------



## Tisme (30 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> But by your definition above, wouldn't it be a revolutionary war and not a civil one?
> 
> Thereafter came president Washington, not King Washington. i.e. the entire political structure was changed. I know, not all men were created equal after the poms were kicked out... some men were still superior to others. But the ruling elite did take turn running the place, giving pretence to democracy and having elections... King George and the poms decided to scour the Pacific for their new supply source.




No. You should acknowledge the phrase "War of Independence" to give it real meaning.

In regards to traitor Washington, he was a rather useless tactician for large scale war and nearly ended the fracas before it could start by exposing his army to be encircled in the battle of New York by Gen Howe and Gen Burgoyne ... it was only because Howe thought Burgoyne had it in the bag that he sent his troops down to Pennsylvania instead. Washington even conceded he was toast if it wasn't for Howe's procrastination and arrogance.

You also have to also remember that the British army was in no small way comprised of local free settler loyalists....civilian against civilian, with rice plantation owners and slave owners, French and Russians stumping up for the rebellion.

The POMS didn't need to go looking elsewhere for trade and power, they already had India in the bag since QE1 gave them permission in 1600 and eventually winning the Carnatic, Plassey and Buxar wars there, while trying to put up with <chant> USA USA</chant> taking the consequent advantage.

British history is so much more interesting and gallant than the myths USA kids are subsumed into from the cradle.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2018)

More W.A agricultural land up for sale, I wonder if an aussie buyer will pick it up. lol

https://thewest.com.au/business/wa-mega-farm-up-for-grabs-in-wheatbelt-for-85m-ng-b88834347z


----------



## dutchie (10 June 2018)

*Bipartisan reply to China is a triumph we’ll need to repeat*
 Greg Sheridan - The Australian

"The efforts of the intelligence committee chairman, the Liberals’ Andrew Hastie, and his Labor deputy, Anthony Byrne, have been *hard-headed, conscientious and put the national interest first*. At a time when politics seems feral, tribal, atomised and frequently deranged, *this cold, hard,* *bipartisan approach on national security is something like the nation at its best*."

(my bolds)

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...t/news-story/9c6e744a2d1b94404fd6197e15eeabda

Keep up the good work Australia.


----------



## Tisme (10 June 2018)

dutchie said:


> *Bipartisan reply to China is a triumph we’ll need to repeat*
> Greg Sheridan - The Australian
> 
> "The efforts of the intelligence committee chairman, the Liberals’ Andrew Hastie, and his Labor deputy, Anthony Byrne, have been *hard-headed, conscientious and put the national interest first*. At a time when politics seems feral, tribal, atomised and frequently deranged, *this cold, hard,* *bipartisan approach on national security is something like the nation at its best*."
> ...




Hooray for two Australians who have a sense of pride in our country. Dare I say it again,...... politicians should be generational Australians who aren't infected by their foreign ancestral roots.

Anthony Byrne has a remarkable handle on matters security.


----------



## noirua (10 June 2018)

China looks set to control the world of business rather than own it. Another move against smaller domains as they concede to America on trade:

*CHINA: Country Imposes Antidumping Tariff On Poultry Imported From Brazil*
https://www.ii.co.uk/news/china-cou...y-imported-from-brazil-al1528549124013512000/


----------



## SirRumpole (16 June 2018)

A salutary lesson concerning Huawei from the Brits.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-16/huawei-britain-history-helps-explain-australia-anxiety/9875582


----------



## Darc Knight (16 June 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A salutary lesson concerning Huawei from the Brits.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-16/huawei-britain-history-helps-explain-australia-anxiety/9875582




"China has an established track record of cyber attacks and Article 7 of China's National Intelligence Law states that "any organisation or citizen shall support, assist, and cooperate with state intelligence work according to law".

It's concerning that's for sure.


----------



## sptrawler (16 June 2018)

I think China, has grown to enjoy the trappings of 'capitalism lite', their objectives are being achieved.
They are changing a poverty riddled, over populated Country, into an industrial power house in an amazingly short period of time.
This has been mainly achieved by overseas companies, taking their manufacturing to China, due to cheap labour costs and Chinese Government incentives.
Now that China, as Japan did in the 1960's, has generated its own market and manufacturing plants.
The U.S and just about everyone else, wants them to back of, I don't think China wants to back off. lol


----------



## Redbeard (5 July 2018)

Not sure if you all can read this 
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...a/news-story/f70c2144f1cb97e772739f9ad937c3b5

just take a BEX first..


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2018)

Redbeard said:


> Not sure if you all can read this
> https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...a/news-story/f70c2144f1cb97e772739f9ad937c3b5
> 
> just take a BEX first..




I wonder if he ever ponders what happens to those populations of muslims that seem to just vanish in China.

for those who are blocked:

"

_China cannot continue to rise the way that it has within a West-designed world order, in a Western-designed global financial system, and in a West-controlled international legal trade structure dominated and controlled by Western powers...._

_The only way for China to reach its potential is for China to force a change to the rules and create a new world order... The rules have to change..._

_[China] needs greater control of the global media which it plans. Global media and the engine of social media are in the hands of China’s opponents. The Arab Spring has seen the power of Western propaganda satellites in manipulating and misinforming the public leading the Arab world to chaos and the result has been death and destruction. Today China has been able to block that intrusion into China’s internal affairs...._

Moselmane's conspiracy theories and antagonism to the West is of deep concern, coming from an Australian politician.

Does he not think the Chinese communists actually have too much control over the media, imposing harsh censorship? Does he not think that China is actually smashing the world order by stealing the South China Sea, to the especial disadvantage not of the West but of China's Asian neighbours - Vietnam and the Philippines? Does he not see that China's astonishing rise has in fact created under the "Western" system he now denounces? Does he not see that China is actually a communist dictatorship?

Why is this man a Labor MP? What kind of interests and hatreds does he represent and reinforce?

I agree with Professor Clive Hamilton:

_Who wrote it? It’s the worst kind of propaganda from Beijing. It’s extraordinary. What struck me is he is saying what China needs to rule the world is to control the world’s media._

UPDATE

Moselmane has form, and Sharri Markson attacked him:

_Jewish advocacy groups are “cancerous” and “malicious” and try to “deny, misinform and scaremonger”. A NSW Labor politician voiced these incendiary words — the first NSW Muslim MP, in fact, Shaoquett Moselmane. He didn’t utter them in the privacy of his own home. He felt comfortable enough broadcasting this anti-semitic sentiment within the walls of the NSW Parliament._

_This is terrifying in itself. The MP, who ironically decried racism in his first speech to parliament, made the remarks just two years ago, in May 2013. He was not shouted-out of the high office he holds for racist commentary. On the contrary, Labor continues to support him and Moselmane is now a vocal advocate behind a push to ban Labor MPs from visiting Israel on trips funded by Jewish organisations._

Moselmane denies being anti-Semitic or racist and sued Markson for writing the above - only to drop his claim just before it went to trial. There's someone who - it seems to me - indeed believes in more control over the media.

But an extract from Moselmane's speech makes me wonder as well about his preaching:

_I will always say and do what is right, even in the face of trash that I have read in *the Australian Israeli media*. One or two reporters writing in the Murdoch press—namely the Australian—have been attacking me and denying the truth of Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land and* the killing and dehumanising of the Palestinian people*._

_That is utter garbage. I accept the right of people to express their views, even when they are wrong, naive, ill informed, i*ndoctrinated and blinded by the power of a political lobby group that is cancerous, malicious and seeks to deny, misinform and scaremonger*. What I do take exception to is foreigners intervening in the rights of Australian politicians to speak out. Therefore,* I say to the Israeli ambassador, Yuval Rotem, “Butt out and stay out. Your perceived right to bully as you do in the Middle East does not extend to the Australian political arena*.”_

_In today’s Australian Cassandra Wilkinson, lacking journalistic integrity and informed knowledge of Israeli occupation of Arab land, ... conveniently attacks others in the New South Wales Parliament who simply dare to criticise—as any ethical or moral person would do—*the State of Israel’s illegal and criminal practices against the Palestinian people*._

_I applaud all Muslim and Arab leaders for speaking out on these and other issues. *I call on the Australian Arab Muslim community to unite *and for once to speak with one Australian voice. I ask them to protect the right of their community to speak out and deliver a message of peace and citizenship on behalf of their community so that neither they nor their messages are misconstrued or misunderstood._

That's "a message of peace"?

Then there was this:

_A CLAIM made in NSW Parliament last week by Opposition Whip in the Legislative Council, Shaoquett Moselmane, that no Jews in pre-State Israel were “ever harmed” by Palestinians, has outraged political and communal leaders._

_And subsequent comments by the Lebanese-born MLC that labelled the late Shimon Peres as being partly responsible for “the uprooting of the Palestinian people” have been condemned by NSW MPs, including Opposition Leader Luke Foley, who called them “disappointing and innapropriate”._

_The tirade was launched by Moselmane during a debate about a condolence motion for Peres..._

_“Neither Palestinian Muslim nor Palestinian Christian ever harmed the Jewish people of Palestine,” Moselmane charged._

_“Yet history can objectively recall and show the harm done to innocent Palestinians in their thousands in the many massacres – including Deir Yassin.”_

_That prompted quick condemnation from NSW Jewish Board of Deputies CEO Vic Alhadeff, who ... referred to many recorded cases of Jews being killed during the British Mandate, most notably the 1929 massacres when 133 Jews were killed, the April 1948 Hadassah convoy massacre when 78 Jews were slain, and countless deadly terrorist attacks._

Why does Labor continue to preselect such a man?

Is this evidence that Muslim immigration is also the immigration of a culture very hostile to our democratic own?"


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Why does Labor continue to preselect such a man?




After the Muslim vote, like with Husic. 

These people can have their cultural rambles, but if the Labor Party starts taking notice of them, then that's a problem.


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> After the Muslim vote, like with Husic.
> 
> These people can have their cultural rambles, but if the Labor Party starts taking notice of them, then that's a problem.




This has been one of my gripes for sometime. Labor appear to have continued down the dung beetle trail, picking up bits of **** here and bits of **** there to make up the lost numbers of working class (transcended into pensioners, welfare class and middle class bogans). Sure they manage to create a noticeable dung ball, but it's still a ball of **** that seems to betray its once admirable totems.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> This has been one of my gripes for sometime. Labor appear to have continued down the dung beetle trail, picking up bits of **** here and bits of **** there to make up the lost numbers of working class (transcended into pensioners, welfare class and middle class bogans). Sure they manage to create a noticeable dung ball, but it's still a ball of **** that seems to betray its once admirable totems.




Agreed. They are going down to route of social inclusion by quota and the talent base is being eroded.

I can't see see any Hawkes, Keatings, Wrans or Whitlams in the Labor Party these days, just bland Billy and his bunch of social whingers.


----------



## luutzu (5 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> This has been one of my gripes for sometime. Labor appear to have continued down the dung beetle trail, picking up bits of **** here and bits of **** there to make up the lost numbers of working class (transcended into pensioners, welfare class and middle class bogans). Sure they manage to create a noticeable dung ball, but it's still a ball of **** that seems to betray its once admirable totems.




Tisme: What Labor need is Paul Keating. I need Paul Keating


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed. They are going down to route of social inclusion by quota and the talent base is being eroded.
> 
> I can't see see any Hawkes, Keatings, Wrans or Whitlams in the Labor Party these days, just bland Billy and his bunch of social whingers.




Jeez you two, I'm starting to warm to you, I'm misting up.

Labor have got to get out of the 1950's thought pattern, of take from Peter and give to Paul, you end up with everyone poor like Paul. 
When you should be trying, to make it easier, for Paul to become a Peter.
The only way for poor people to get out of poverty, is to find them paid work, to do that you have to develop jobs. 
You can't just give them more and more money, when you aren't increasing the financial monetary base, you are just moving the chairs around.
In the end you run out of chairs, and everyone has the same amount of chairs, you need to make more chairs.
I wish silly Billy could see that, at least Albo, let the cat out of the bag. 
Anyway I'm just a pleb paddling his own canoe.


----------



## luutzu (5 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> I wonder if he ever ponders what happens to those populations of muslims that seem to just vanish in China.
> 
> for those who are blocked:
> 
> ...




Maybe it's just Murdoch's way of telling Beijing that they should have been nicer to him when he attempted to jump into bed with them back in the 90s. 

Big mistake comrades. You could have a Rupee touch indoctrinating your peasants then, and now, a potential reach across the world with a seat or two on the Disney or Comcast/Fox media empire.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez you two, I'm starting to warm to you, I'm misting up.




Don't get too misty, I'd still prefer Labor to the covert corruption of the Coalition.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2018)

How China treats dissident religions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...cleansing-xi-jinping-chinese-muslims/10033472


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

China is getting into big problem with debt.

But if they just decide not to repay it, who is going to argue ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...war-is-massive-debt-a-bigger-problem/10055192


----------



## luutzu (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> China is getting into big problem with debt.
> 
> But if they just decide not to repay it, who is going to argue ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...war-is-massive-debt-a-bigger-problem/10055192




Good article.

It appear that Trump's tariffs is more of a tax on American consumers than hitting China where it hurt. 

Guess you can't make general statements, but not all debt are bad. Particularly if you're the guy printing the money to repay it with. 

So if China's debt were, mainly, spent towards those high speed rails, standard rail and freight; roads and tunnels that cut a typical commute from 8 hours down to 2 say. The eventual return will pay for itself. 

There are ghost cities and empty buildings... maybe on a larger scale but we also have them here. There's a couple new blocks near where I live that were built some 6 months ago. About 1/3rd to 1/2 have their lights on in the evening.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> About 1/3rd to 1/2 have their lights on in the evening.




Maybe the rest are shift workers on the job ?


----------



## luutzu (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the rest are shift workers on the job ?




Maybe. Two jobs now. 

But these are fancy new blocks. The kind where 1 bedroom apartment asks for $650K.


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2018)

When I was in Malaysia a couple of weekends ago, we caught a taxi from Singapore, to Legoland.
On the way, when we crossed the causeway there was a lot of new apartments being built, also around Legoland there were new empty apartments.
I asked the driver, why so many new apartments, he said they are being built by the Chinese. The Malaysian Government lets them build apartment buildings, as long as the Chinese Government put in new toll roads and infrastructure.
Now I'm back in Australia, it seems Victoria, is going down the same path.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ecret-chinese-trade-deal-20181106-p50eaf.html

I certainly hope, they write up tighter contracts, than are usual for Australian Governments.
What was the old saying? "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
I don't think this will end well.


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2018)

I certainly hope Daniel Andrews, knows what he is getting into, is there any wonder the Federal Government is concerned.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...hina-belt-road-initiative-silk-road-explainer


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope Daniel Andrews, knows what he is getting into, is there any wonder the Federal Government is concerned.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...hina-belt-road-initiative-silk-road-explainer




US corporations spent $7Trillion since the GFC buying back stocks. That's pretty good right? 

That map looks like China is carving out all of Asia, the Middle East, South Asia...


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> When I was in Malaysia a couple of weekends ago, we caught a taxi from Singapore, to Legoland.
> On the way, when we crossed the causeway there was a lot of new apartments being built, also around Legoland there were new empty apartments.
> I asked the driver, why so many new apartments, he said they are being built by the Chinese. The Malaysian Government lets them build apartment buildings, as long as the Chinese Government put in new toll roads and infrastructure.
> Now I'm back in Australia, it seems Victoria, is going down the same path.
> ...




I'm sure they'll write it pretty tight. Else it'll be a hard sell to consult to China about untangling it.


----------



## Bill M (10 November 2018)

Who the hell wants these people owning or ruling the world?
---
Disturbing footage shows staff at a Chinese company drinking urine and being whipped after ‘failing to reach their sales targets’. They were filmed performing the sickening acts inside the office of a decorating company based in Zunyi city, in southwestern Guizhou Province. The workers were also reportedly ordered to eat cockroaches by the management, who believed they had let the team down.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/06/chin...rink-urine-as-punishment-8111983/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/
---


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## luutzu (10 November 2018)

Bill M said:


> Who the hell wants these people owning or ruling the world?
> ---
> Disturbing footage shows staff at a Chinese company drinking urine and being whipped after ‘failing to reach their sales targets’. They were filmed performing the sickening acts inside the office of a decorating company based in Zunyi city, in southwestern Guizhou Province. The workers were also reportedly ordered to eat cockroaches by the management, who believed they had let the team down.
> 
> ...




That's just nuts. Workers must be very desperate to put up with that crap. 

Strange how a "socialist" country doesn't have any workers' rights or unions. 

Unfortunately those who own or rule the world often do so because they're psychotic greedy little bastards who have no problem with these kind of stuff.

Just saw a compilation of what [looks like Chinese, some SE/Asians] doing to the meat and fisheries before they bring to market.

Smaller meats/carcasses gets injected with some liquid to pump them up, increase the weight. Bigger meats goes on a conveyor belt and have presses injecting crap into them before being packed.


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2018)

luutzu said:


> That's just nuts. Workers must be very desperate to put up with that crap.
> 
> Strange how a "socialist" country doesn't have any workers' rights or unions.
> 
> ...



Yes, and just as funny, how we criticise our Country.
Just shows, it is really hard to be happy grasshopper.
Maybe no matter how good life is, we look for the down side, who knows maybe drugs are the answer, then everyone is happy and just need food and shelter?
Obviously asking people to be responsible, doesn't work.


----------



## luutzu (11 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, and just as funny, how we criticise our Country.
> Just shows, it is really hard to be happy grasshopper.
> Maybe no matter how good life is, we look for the down side, who knows maybe drugs are the answer, then everyone is happy and just need food and shelter?
> Obviously asking people to be responsible, doesn't work.




Sometime looking at the down side is not putting life, or country, or people, down... just so it can be improved?

Yea, no need to sugar coat people. People can be quite creatively nasty. But then when it's a difference between your family getting fed or not... Just don't eat anything from Asia. That's why they have a tradition of wanting to see the head of animal whose meat they're eating. Proof of actual meat.


----------



## Humid (11 November 2018)

The difference is we can criticise our own country.


----------



## notting (6 December 2018)

This is a really smart move.
The cleverest thing they could have done - 



> China could be preparing to spring a global compact to drive tariffs to zero, and approach Trans Pacific Partnership members including Australia for access to the grouping, positioning Beijing as a champion for free trade.
> 
> That's the view of former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who believes China's President Xi Jinping may even use next month's World Economic Forum summit in Switzerland to launch across-the-board liberalisation that would "take the world by storm".
> 
> "That indeed could represent a serious new challenge to American leadership," Mr Rudd warned in a speech in New York on Wednesday


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2018)

notting said:


> This is a really smart move.
> The cleverest thing they could have done -




If China wanted to do that then we should say yes, provided there is a close to zero balance of trade between us and them.


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If China wanted to do that then we should say yes, provided there is a close to zero balance of trade between us and them.



It would certainly close down any manufacturing, that can't compete with China.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2018)

sptrawler said:


> It would certainly close down any manufacturing, that can't compete with China.




Why should we have to compete with slave labour ?


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Why should we have to compete with slave labour ?



Read up on the Lima agreement, i'm not sure if is accurate or not, but interesting concept.

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/lima/

From what I've read, Australia signed up to it in 1975.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Read up on the Lima agreement, i'm not sure if is accurate or not, but interesting concept.
> 
> http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/lima/
> 
> From what I've read, Australia signed up to it in 1975.




Global Socialism ?

It only works if the salaries and conditions in the 3rd world countries come up to those in the developed countries, and for the most part that hasn't happened.


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Global Socialism ?
> 
> It only works if the salaries and conditions in the 3rd world countries come up to those in the developed countries, and for the most part that hasn't happened.



Things usually go to the lowest common denominator.

That is what trump is fighting.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2019)

Not all good under the surface in China.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-20/chinas-looming-great-wall-of-debt/10713614


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Not all good under the surface in China.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-20/chinas-looming-great-wall-of-debt/10713614




Debt would be a serious problem if it's personal debt, maybe corporate debt. But seeing how most Chinese corporate debt are state owned enterprises... ie, gov't will just bail them out.

Gov't debt can be repaid by just printing money. Sure that'll cause inflation etc., but when you're big enough, people won't mind that much, apparently.

The thing about measure economic instability, financial weakness through debt level, as the eggheads in the paper look to all be doing.. is that they ignore what those debt are spent on, ignore that "grand strategy".

Building empty cities or empty roads and rail barely being filled. Sure, for now. Once the gov't curb rich investor's appetite for empty apartments while most average Chinese couldn't start a family 'cause they can't afford housing... those flats will go for cheap.

To say that China's roads are mostly empty, no cash flows. Well... that's better than our congested roads where people stay for hours on them, and paying through the nose through tolls and wasted fuel idling.

On a national, gov'tal level, I don't think you can measure financial, economic well being the way you measure a family or an individual's balance sheet. 

Our politicians and economist in the West seem to have drunk that cool-aid and hence, austerity during economic recession to be "fiscally responsible". Cutting public services, putting more expense on the working poor who's already doing it tough... all to "balance" the budget.

China is playing the long game. They're going to be owning the entire Euro-Asian landmass next couple decades.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> To say that China's roads are mostly empty, no cash flows. Well... that's better than our congested roads where people stay for hours on them, and paying through the nose through tolls and wasted fuel idling.




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5423061/Thousands-cars-stranded-epic-10km-traffic-jam.html


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5423061/Thousands-cars-stranded-epic-10km-traffic-jam.html




I was just responding to the previous article's think tanker saying China's just building empty cities and highways etc.

I think at the current rate, China's high speed rail will equal all the world's high speed rail in about 2022. 

From glancing at the feed of its finished highways and tunnels, it's quite impressive.


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Not all good under the surface in China.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-20/chinas-looming-great-wall-of-debt/10713614



But how hard it will hurt us in Australia..30pc of our export the rest towan japan/s korea...who build for China
Today in a resort in southern china.walk on the beach this morning, the next door mega development is stopped and rust is starting.along the way still so many high rises and cranes but empty, the older ones with selling signs still and a few of them only with sign of life
I have the feeling the downhill has started..a year ago i was scared, now, more empty building and cranes , but work seems stopped and not as frantic..just anecdotal evidence, but the fall has started in my opinion.be careful with your bhp and rio portfolio my 2c advice
Rolls-Royce and porche/mercs around but not sure how new these are
Less westerners in the bay area as well.all anecdotal obviously.but....


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> But how hard it will hurt us in Australia..30pc of our export the rest towan japan/s korea...who build for China
> Today in a resort in southern china.walk on the beach this morning, the next door mega development is stopped and rust is starting.along the way still so many high rises and cranes but empty, the older ones with selling signs still and a few of them only with sign of life
> I have the feeling the downhill has started..a year ago i was scared, now, more empty building and cranes , but work seems stopped and not as frantic..just anecdotal evidence, but the fall has started in my opinion.be careful with your bhp and rio portfolio my 2c advice
> Rolls-Royce and porche/mercs around but not sure how new these are
> Less westerners in the bay area as well.all anecdotal obviously.but....




Nothing like a good man on the site .


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Nothing like a good man on the site .



Not sure but my eyes do not lie nor want to rely on an economic report cooked by someone in an office..will see how it will end up.a bit scary to be honest.i would not like living in taipei this year or be assigned on a us ship around here


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2019)

And during that time in the west
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/19/could-flexitarianism-save-the-planet
While Rome is burning.. history repeating


----------



## sptrawler (15 February 2019)

China's influence and reach is starting to be recognised.

http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/a/80186-eu-to-keep-closer-eye-on-chinese-takeover-moves.html


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> China's influence and reach is starting to be recognised.
> 
> http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/a/80186-eu-to-keep-closer-eye-on-chinese-takeover-moves.html




Huawei's Chairman [?] recently said that he believe the US/West is banning Huawei's hardware because it won't allow US/Western security/intelligence agencies to collect data and spy on its users.

Implied in that, of course, is that only Beijing and its allies could collect the data and spy on the users.. leaving the West out in the cold.

Hence, security issue.

That and Western IT giants gotta make their money overcharging us plebs right.


----------



## Darc Knight (18 February 2019)

"Nothing to worry about, nothing to see here!!!" 

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019...-scott-morrison-cyber-attack-hackers/10821170

Yeah, you reckon they are telling us the full story? Obviously Jina and Russia are on the short list of possible hackers


----------



## DB008 (18 November 2019)

*Investigation: Why is China on the move in the South Pacific?*​

​


----------



## sptrawler (15 January 2020)

luutzu said:


> I was just responding to the previous article's think tanker saying China's just building empty cities and highways etc.
> 
> I think at the current rate, China's high speed rail will equal all the world's high speed rail in about 2022.
> 
> From glancing at the feed of its finished highways and tunnels, it's quite impressive.




China's empty cities are starting to make sense, as can been seen in this artilce.

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-...tep-efforts-lure-domestic-migrants-government
From the article:
_According to a plan published in 2016, China plans to grant urban permanent residency to 100 million people by 2020.
The scramble for domestic migrants by provincial capital cities highlights an increased focus on urbanisation as municipal authorities realise that they need a consistent inflow of people to sustain local property markets and to prompt economic growth.
Hangzhou, the provincial capital city of affluent Zhejiang province, last week announced that it will grant permanent residency to migrants with college education and above, a relaxation from the previous regulation that stated a person with a college education degree can only apply for permanent residency if they are under 35 years old.
In February, the city of Xian announced that any Chinese citizen with a university degree can become a permanent resident of the city, with the rule also applying to students who have not yet graduated.
The bottom-up efforts by municipal governments are endorsed by Beijing as the central government regards “urbanisation of people” as the single largest driver for the country’s economic growth. According to a plan published in 2016, China plans to grant urban permanent residency to 100 million people by 2020_.
_In general, the larger a city, the more difficult it is to obtain its hukou. Beijing, for example, is famously unfriendly to domestic migrants after the municipal government kicked hundreds of thousands of domestic migrants out of the city in the winter of 2017 after a fire killed 19 people_.
_However, the wave began to turn as the country’s working population, defined as those aged between 16 and 59, shrank for the seventh consecutive year in 2018_.


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2020)

This thread has been quiet for a while, the answer to the question is starting to become obvious IMO, it's China's way or the highway.









						'If you make China the enemy, China will be the enemy': Beijing's fresh threat to Australia
					

A deliberately leaked Chinese government document has laid out 14 disputes aimed at pressuring the Morrison government to reverse Australia’s position on key policies.




					www.smh.com.au
				




I guess a lot of people in Canberra, will be wondering why they let all the Australian industries shut down, now that we get everything from one supplier.


----------



## macca (19 November 2020)

Yep, we now live in "interesting times" as per the grand plan


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2020)

Yes it is all fine and great that the industrialized countries send their manufacturing to third world countries, to lift them out of poverty, I hope they are as magnanimous when the roles are reversed.
It is a shame, many of the ranters and chanters can't forsee what will be the result of their efforts. Lol


----------



## satanoperca (20 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This thread has been quiet for a while, the answer to the question is starting to become obvious IMO, it's China's way or the highway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





sptrawler said:


> Yes it is all fine and great that the industrialized countries send their manufacturing to third world countries, to lift them out of poverty, I hope they are as magnanimous when the roles are reversed.
> It is a shame, many of the ranters and chanters can't forsee what will be the result of their efforts. Lol



So what do you propose?

We rode off the back of the mining boom, skyrocketing our dollar, which left everyone (manufacturing exporters) except miners unable to compete.

How do you manufacture in this country when our core inputs are so expensive, power, shelter and wages?

So back to the topic, yes China will rule, they had a 30 year plan, what do we have? Nothing

The US cannot even run an election.

We export energy but cannot keep some of it for ourselves.

The only thing I can see we can nurture as an export base is agriculture, the world needs to be feed. Oh, crap, oh dumb arse pollies have allowed the base for that industry land, to be sold off as well.

And before someone says tech centre, then they don't work in tech. No chance. To easy to export tech to any country in the world.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> How do you manufacture in this country when our core inputs are so expensive, power, shelter and wages?




I know it's an outdated idea, but, tariffs.

Charge each country a tariff o all their goods equal to the highest tariff they put on our goods.

See if that makes a difference.


----------



## sptrawler (20 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I know it's an outdated idea, but, tariffs.
> 
> Charge each country a tariff o all their goods equal to the highest tariff they put on our goods.
> 
> See if that makes a difference.



Spot on Rumpy, the only way we can survive as a first world nation, with the benefits like welfare, medicare, pension etc, is to go back to the future and either re introduce tarrifs to support manufacturing, or introduce a mineral tax based on volume to pay for the building of a manufacturing base.
It isnt as though it hasnt already been done in the past, it was a condition of mining our minerals in the 1960s that down stream processing was built, that is how Kwinana, whyalla etc were started.
It has only been since the 1980s that this was dismantled and it wasnt by the Liberals as most would think, but having said that, the Libs didnt put a halt to the slide.
Also as has been shown in the U.S, trying to force manufacturers to return their factories to high wages countries isnt easy, the media relies on big business for advertising income, step on their toes and there are reprocussions as Trump found out, people only hear what the media tell them.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on Rumpy, the only way we can survive as a first world nation, with the benefits like welfare, medicare, pension etc, is to go back to the future and either re introduce tarrifs to support manufacturing, or introduce a mineral tax based on volume to pay for the building of a manufacturing base.
> It isnt as though it hasnt already been done in the past, it was a condition of mining our minerals in the 1960s that down stream processing was built, that is how Kwinana, whyalla etc were started.
> It has only been since the 1980s that this was dismantled and it wasnt by the Liberals as most would think, but having said that, the Libs didnt put a halt to the slide.
> Also as has been shown in the U.S, trying to force manufacturers to return their factories to high wages countries isnt easy, the media relies on big business for advertising income, step on their toes and there are reprocussions as Trump found out, people only hear what the media tell them.




Unfortunately, governments have signed away our rights with so called "Free" Trade agreements, which have reduced or eliminated our freedom to act in the national interest.

Trump had the right idea there, throw off the shackles and do what's best for the nation.


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Unfortunately, governments have signed away our rights with so called "Free" Trade agreements, which have reduced or eliminated our freedom to act in the national interest.
> 
> Trump had the right idea there, throw off the shackles and do what's best for the nation.



Absolutely, many poor outcomes have been born from good intent, Labor from memory signed up to  the Lima agreement which had noble intent. Then Hawke/Keating commenced dismantling tarrifs to support the intent of the agreement and reduced protections and commenced deregulating the financial system.
Then Liberals came in and accelerated the privatisation of Government institutions, now 30 years on we are seeing a role reversal of the political parties, the Labor Party is pushing for a more moderate stance with China and the Liberals seem to be moving back to an Australia first stance.
It really is an interesting time, China will obviously become the Worlds major power, but for Australia to survive as we know it, IMO we have to become less dependent on Chinese manufactured goods, but that is easier said than done when they can dump their product here for nothing.
The other issue is IMO, do people really expect China to look after Australia, when our resources are depleted? So who will provide the future for our grandkids, if we dont.
It is time we stopped pizzing on ourselves and put in place a long term sustainable plan, that included producing what we can from the natural resources we have, rather than begging companies to dig it up and send it overseas to be processed, that includes lithium, rare earths, nickel, cadmium, iron ore and a the rest.
Just my opinion.


----------



## cutz (21 November 2020)

They are not dumping their products here, they are just satisfying  the Aussie thirst for cheap and nasty throw away junk that's being sold all over the place, Bunnings really got the ball rolling years ago, how often have you heard the line " I'll just throw it out when it breaks and get a new one"


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2020)

cutz said:


> They are not dumping their products here, they are just satisfying  the Aussie thirst for cheap and nasty throw away junk that's being sold all over the place, Bunnings really got the ball rolling years ago, how often have you heard the line " I'll just throw it out when it breaks and get a new one"



That is very true and it wasnt long ago that our tool manufacturing closed down sidchrome, it is like anything else, if it is worth protecting it has to be given a level of assistance.
You cant make a socket set in Australia for the same price as China, if you pay Australian wages, super,annual leave, sickies, long service leave, redundacy payments etc, so if you dont put a tarrif on the Chinese product how do you keep the Australian product competitive.
Then that leads to the question if you cant and it should be shut down, how do you keep the workers conditions in Australia, when you shut down all the work?
Which then goes back to what can we do here at a reasonably cost effective point, IMO it is using modern processes to value add to our resources.
We should have the biggest lithium ion battery manufacturing plants in the world, we have all the basic ingredients required.
Why do we send the rare earths to malasia to process?


----------



## cutz (21 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true and it wasnt long ago that our tool manufacturing closed down sidchrome, it is like anything else, if it is worth protecting it has to be given a level of assistance.
> You cant make a socket set in Australia for the same price as China, if you pay Australian wages, super,annual leave, sickies, long service leave, redundacy payments etc, so if you dont put a tarrif on the Chinsse product how do you keep the Australian product competitive.
> Then that leads to the question if you cant and it should be shut down, how do you keep the workers conditions in Australia, when you shut down all the work?




It's a shame yeah. "You Canner Hand A Man A Grander Spanner" , no longer true ...

I still own aussie made sidchrome tools, and whenever I come across the old sidchrome in a second hand shop I will snap it up.

Me personally I do make a conscientious decision when buying tools and am prepared to pay a premium, the Americans and Germans can still manufacture even with the OK wages/sickies/leave, amazon can supply US and German made tooling at reasonable pricing, I have purchased through them, you can also still buy Australian made torque wrenches (W&B), little pricy but they are tools for life, I even purchased a Spanish made ceiling exhaust fan this week to replace the original that failed, the options are out there, just got to do a little ground work.


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2020)

cutz said:


> It's a shame yeah. "You Canner Hand A Man A Grander Spanner" , no longer true ...
> 
> I still own aussie made sidchrome tools, and whenever I come across the old sidchrome in a second hand shop I will snap it up.
> 
> Me personally I do make a conscientious decision when buying tools and am prepared to pay a premium, the Americans and Germans can still manufacture even with the OK wages/sickies/leave, amazon can supply US and German made tooling at reasonable pricing, I have purchased through them, you can also still buy Australian made torque wrenches (W&B), little pricy but they are tools for life, I even purchased a Spanish made ceiling exhaust fan this week to replace the original that failed, the options are out there, just got to do a little ground work.



Again what you say is true and I also have a Web and Brown torque wrench.
But where the U.S and Europe have a huge advantage over us is, they have a much larger domestic market place and neither has the wages and conditions we enjoy, German car manufacturers from memory use a lot of imported labour and outsource production to third world countries.
The VW Golf 2.0 TDi I bought in 2005 was manufactured in South Africa.
Australia since the 1960s has been living in a purple patch, easily and cheaply recovered minerals that are being removed at an ever increasing speed, when they have been removed what then?
At the moment we go to Bali and behave like millionaires, we import labour from South Pacific islands, while 1.2 million are on jobseeker, it really doesnt inspire confidence in our ability to overcome our underlying problems IMO.


----------



## cutz (21 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Again what you say is true and I also have a Web and Brown torque wrench.
> But where the U.S and Europe have a huge advantage over us is, they have a much larger domestic market place and neither has the wages and conditions we enjoy, German car manufacturers from memory use a lot of imported labour and outsource production to third world countries.
> The VW Golf 2.0 TDi I bought in 2005 was manufactured in South Africa.
> Australia since the 1960s has been living in a purple patch, easily and cheaply recovered minerals that are being removed at an ever increasing speed, when they have been removed what then?
> At the moment we go to Bali and behave like millionaires, we import labour from South Pacific islands, while 1.2 million are on jobseeker, it really doesnt inspire confidence in our ability to overcome our underlying problems IMO.




Hi Mate,

I have a couple of Warren & Brown torque wrenches , they tend to keep their cal for longer due to the simple but effective deflecting beam principle.

With regards to the European manufacturers, I think they use Asian and African plants to feed the local markets and Australia, correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I can gather, the Americans have a greater sense of patriotic pride than us Aussies, that's why their manufacturers have the edge, as a whole we tend to chase cheap products and even cheaper Asian holidays. BTW, never been to Bali, although pricier I have always preferred far north Queensland away from the bogans..


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2020)

So true mate, I went to Bali once in 1992, never been back, it was a 14 day holiday jumped on the plane back after 10 days. lol
The tension wrench is that old, I had forgotten the name only has ft lb on the scale and I couldn't be bothered googling it, the little wire bit still pops out so all good. 🤪


----------



## bellenuit (21 November 2020)

China make have taken a step too far with its aggressive attitude and policies. Countries are beginning to wake up to the threat posed.

*Justin Trudeau at APEC calls on middle powers to step up*

_Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has called for middle and smaller nations to step up where the US has stepped back to shore up multilateral institutions and ensure that China “plays by the rules”, in a powerful address to the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation summit. 

Mr Trudeau used his speech on Friday to the Malaysia-hosted digital meeting to warn the era of “Pax Americana” was over — notwithstanding an anticipated shift back to multilateralism under president-elect Joe Biden — and smaller nations needed to pull together to show leadership on issues from global trade to coercive Chinese diplomacy.

“It’s time for smaller countries to realise we all have a weight and ability to shape global leadership in meaningful ways for our citizens and neighbours,” Mr Trudeau told the APEC summit in a 45-minute online address that included a question-and-answer session.

“In the face of pressure and increasingly coercive moves by one of the world’s great powers, it really highlights we need to be working together as allies, as neighbours, as friends, as countries._

*





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



*


----------



## frugal.rock (21 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So back to the topic, yes China will rule, they had a 30 year plan, what do we have? Nothing
> 
> We export energy but cannot keep some of it for ourselves.



Agreed.

Energy? We give it away at bargain prices whilst we get bent over a barrel pricewise on our own market...
Totally bizarre behaviour.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> China make have taken a step too far with its aggressive attitude and policies. Countries are beginning to wake up to the threat posed.
> 
> *Justin Trudeau at APEC calls on middle powers to step up*
> 
> ...




Good one Justin, that's leadership.


----------



## basilio (22 November 2020)

I thought Stan Grant wrote a very perceptive analysis  in the ABC of how China would view Australia from a strategic Great Power view.

To be fair  the US  takes a very similar position in its economic relations around the world.  It expects foreign countries to  support  US enterprises and takes a very dim view of countries that do not support US foreign policy directions. 









						Imagine for a moment the view from Beijing. It looks something like this
					

Surely no one still believes that Australia doesn't have to choose between our American alliance and our China trade dependence? Beijing has shown it will make those choices for us, writes Stan Grant.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 November 2020)

cutz said:


> It's a shame yeah. "You Canner Hand A Man A Grander Spanner" , no longer true ...



A lot that comes down to those at the top.

There's an inherent value in manufacturing and other "hands on" technical things that those who've never been involved just can't understand. It forces all manner of innovation to improve product and overcome problems and that's true of even relatively basic manufacturing facilities.

Trouble is, our corporate boards and governments are filled with people having literally zero such experience. They just don't get it and thus see the value of manufacturing as being nothing more than that of the goods produced less the cost of raw materials.

A problem those on corporate boards etc don't grasp is best explained by pointing out that back when I was a boy, pretty much every tradesman and home handyman in Australia owned the exact same screwdriver set which was manufactured in Moonah (Tas). Those old enough know the one - the flat blade were yellow, philips were green, insulated was red.

That factory is long gone now and whilst the product still exists, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone using it indeed you'd have some trouble finding somewhere that even sells those tools today. All made in China and they've lost the point of difference of being a 100% Australian product as they once were.

There are many such examples where a company had extremely strong loyalty to its Australian made product but fell into irrelevance once production was moved offshore and the "buy local" reason to choose that brand over a competitor ceased to exist. The companies didn't simply offshore production, in many cases they put themselves out of business in doing so.

Therein lies a key problem with both politics and the management of businesses. Static accounting. Assuming that changing one thing (eg location of production) won't affect other things (eg consumers' willingness to buy the product). Very often that's not even remotely close to the truth - change the location of production and that removes the reason to buy the product over a competitor also made in China.


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2020)

Smurf I still have a complete set of those screw drivers some a little worse for wear particularly the red insulated one.

Neoliberals and letting the market determine the out comes has led us to this point its pretty much as simple as that, ideology has determined our future not carefully thought though considerations as you point out.

Unfortunately that will also determine the way forward.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

It is a shame the trillions of dollars in Australian super funds, can't be used to buy Australian assetts like the Westconnex freeway, apparently I read there are only three overseas companies interested in buying it.
I guess the Australian super funds just want their management fees for passive investment.








						NSW government to sell remaining WestConnex stake
					

The cash-strapped NSW government will sell its remaining stake in the multibillion-dollar WestConnex motorway.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

IFocus said:


> Neoliberals and letting the market determine the out comes has led us to this point its pretty much as simple as that, ideology has determined our future not carefully thought though considerations as you point out.



You are spot on IFocus, the* Labor Party *was full of them in the 1980's.

_Neoliberalism is contemporarily used to refer to market-oriented reform policies such as *"eliminating price controls, deregulating capital markets, lowering trade barriers" *and reducing state influence in the economy, especially through privatization and austerity_.








						Holden's demise started with the Hawke government
					

Holden's demise as a car maker in Australia pre-dates last September's federal election by 29 years and some months.




					www.smh.com.au
				




And then the* Liberals* in the 1990's

_Neoliberalism is contemporarily used to refer to market-oriented reform policies such as "eliminating price controls, deregulating capital markets, lowering trade barriers" and _*reducing state influence in the economy, especially through privatization and austerity*.








						The Death of Telstra
					

There might be better places for your investment… Telstra (ASX: TLS) is one of the most widely – and most …




					www.fool.com.au
				




That's why it is so difficult to pick sides.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

A balanced article, on where Australia finds itself with regard China and the rising tension.








						Australia's once-symbiotic relationship with China is over
					

Australia's biggest export could become a key geopolitical weapon amid rising tensions with China, writes business editor Ian Verrender.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (29 November 2020)

I saw on Insiders this morning that China was objecting to our barley exports because they were irrigated and irrigation was supplied by the taxpayer and was therefore subsidised.

How absurd !

Even if its not true, every company in China is owned or controlled by the State and is therefore subsidised.

And is China objecting the the subsidies that US farmers get from their government ?

Why do we allow ourselves to sign these ridiculous one sided contracts ?

We have to be the most stupid country in the world.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> A balanced article, on where Australia finds itself with regard China and the rising tension.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just put a 20% export tax on iron ore , we should have done it a long time ago regardless of 'trade tensions'.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I saw on Insiders this morning that China was objecting to our barley exports because they were irrigated and irrigation was supplied by the taxpayer and was therefore subsidised.
> 
> How absurd !
> 
> ...



This could well be a defining moment for Australia, short term pain for long term gain, will be the order of the day IMO.
There is no easy answer to the situation we have found ourselves in, IMO it is better to face it now while we still have some bargaining power, than down the track when we have no resources to leverage from.
As we have said on here globalisation is blown to bits and China is making it worse IMO, the rest of the world will have to return to a more protectionist model and increase their manufacturing and material processing.
Just my opinion.


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This could well be a defining moment for Australia, short term pain for long term gain, will be the order of the day IMO.
> There is no easy answer to the situation we have found ourselves in, IMO it is better to face it now while we still have some bargaining power, than down the track when we have no resources to leverage from.
> As we have said on here globalisation is blown to bits and China is making it worse IMO, the rest of the world will have to return to a more protectionist model and increase their manufacturing and material processing.
> Just my opinion.



Don't know if this is correct but do correct me if I am wrong.

Old adage in business, never put your eggs in one basket (China).

Why have companies chosen to do the majority of their trade with one Communist country?

Because they have purchasing volume and my understanding is they pay top price.

Diversify Australian suppliers, or all those eggs in a single basket, might just get broken.


----------



## bellenuit (30 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Old adage in business, never put your eggs in one basket (China).
> 
> Why have companies chosen to do the majority of their trade with one Communist country?




I think this can be a dilemma for business. If a company exports a commodity, say 10% to USA, 10%, Europe, 10% rest of Asia and 70% China, then one cannot simply say let's change that mix to 25% to each of those regions. There may simply not be the demand from those other regions to absorb what isn't sold to China. The only way to get the mix right might be to simply reduce what is being sold to China so that it gets no more than say the average of the other regions. But how do you persuade a company not to sell when there is a customer there willing to buy it. It would certainly require intervention at a federal level as there is no incentive for a company to limit sales. Federal intervention then bings up other issues. For example, are we deliberately stifling China's growth? It would be quite easy for China to play the racist card. I am not saying that we should not lessen our reliance on China, just that how one does it is fraugth with difficulties.

I agree with sprawler in that this is a defining moment for us and we need to accept short term pain. There seems to be some support for us (hopefully more than just sympathy for us) coming from Europe, particularly Germany, regarding our predicament and they have expressed low level condemnation at China's heavy handed tactics. Should that support begin to grow and other countries pull back from their reliance on China then there is some hope that pressure may mount in China against Xi, who appears to be the one who decided now is the time to play his cards on issues like HK, Taiwan, the South China Sea, the Uyghurs and anyone questioning the origins of COVID-10 or criticising China's response to it.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I think this can be a dilemma for business. If a company exports a commodity, say 10% to USA, 10%, Europe, 10% rest of Asia and 70% China, then one cannot simply say let's change that mix to 25% to each of those regions. There may simply not be the demand from those other regions to absorb what isn't sold to China. The only way to get the mix right might be to simply reduce what is being sold to China so that it gets no more than say the average of the other regions. But how do you persuade a company not to sell when there is a customer there willing to buy it. It would certainly require intervention at a federal level as there is no incentive for a company to limit sales. Federal intervention then bings up other issues. For example, are we deliberately stifling China's growth? It would be quite easy for China to play the racist card. I am not saying that we should not lessen our reliance on China, just that how one does it is fraugth with difficulties.
> 
> I agree with sprawler in that this is a defining moment for us and we need to accept short term pain. There seems to be some support for us (hopefully more than just sympathy for us) coming from Europe, particularly Germany, regarding our predicament and they have expressed low level condemnation at China's heavy handed tactics. Should that support begin to grow and other countries pull back from their reliance on China then there is some hope that pressure may mount in China against Xi, who appears to be the one who decided now is the time to play his cards on issues like HK, Taiwan, the South China Sea, the Uyghurs and anyone questioning the origins of COVID-10 or criticising China's response to it.




We are just sucking up China's mendacity at the moment.

As a former PM said, you don't stop bullies by giving in to them.

At the least we should be suspending any further investment by China in any of our industries and putting an export tax on iron ore.

It has to end somewhere, China won't stop while they think they have us over a barrell.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

One wonders if China isn't setting Australia up for a big fall? We import most of our consumables from them, they don't need our business so could quite easily withdraw exports to Australia, they import our raw materials but we probably are more dependent on them buying it than they are as to needing it.
Really interesting times, when we started down this road of deregulation and tariff reductions, I wonder if those who championed the ideology realised the precarious position it would put us in.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> One wonders if China isn't setting Australia up for a big fall? We import most of our consumables from them, they don't need our business so could quite easily withdraw exports to Australia, they import our raw materials but we probably are more dependent on them buying it than they are as to needing it.
> Really interesting times, when we started down this road of deregulation and tariff reductions,* I wonder if those who championed the ideology realised the precarious position it would put us in. *




Nope they just wanted the money.

I think it's a pretty good lesson for other countries( and States), especially those who have signed up to the Belt and Road.


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> they don't need our business so could quite easily withdraw exports to Australia, .



Who cares, so what, do they export shelter, NO, do they export food, NO, do they export fresh air, NO, do they export water, NO, they do export clothing but so do a stack of other countries;

So what does China export to Australia that we need to survive: f----k all of nothing.

Edit, they do export a crap load of sh----it that we put in a landfill.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's a pretty good lesson for other countries( and States), especially those who have signed up to the Belt and Road.



It does make one think, the idea of excluding Huawei from their 5G infrastructure, may well be a very sensible move. 
China's current attacks on Australian trade, does show that contracts with State run organisations, are very much at the whim of the State and contracts and safeguards mean very little.


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It does make one think, the idea of excluding Huawei from their 5G infrastructure, may well be a very sensible move.
> China's current attacks on Australian trade, does show that contracts with State run organisations, are very much at the whim of the State and contracts and safeguards mean very little.



What is the difference between buying a nuclear missile from China or a 5G network?

Nothing, both can be armed to distroy.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Who cares, so what, do they export shelter, NO, do they export food, NO, do they export fresh air, NO, do they export water, NO, they do export clothing but so do a stack of other countries;
> 
> So what does China export to Australia that we need to survive: f----k all of nothing.
> 
> Edit, they do export a crap load of sh----it that we put in a landfill.



Very true and I agree with you, as long as the muppets don't revolt, when they can't get their retail therapy. lol
At least China will have to probably go back to melamine baby formula.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> What is the difference between buying a nuclear missile from China or a 5G network?
> 
> Nothing, both can be armed to distroy.



Well if you can't see the difference between buying a missile, or buying critical infrastructure and software that could remotely shut down your internet and communications nationwide, I guess we just see it differently.


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well if you can't see the difference between buying a missile, or buying critical infrastructure and software that could remotely shut down your internet and communications nationwide, I guess we just see it differently.



I am confused, you agree or disagree, that both can be used to create destruction/harm.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2020)

Buying a misile can do a bit of damage, shutting down your internet and comminications, stuffs up your whole country these days.


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2020)

This is an interesting article IMO, especially the part about excluding Chinese banks from the U.S dollar system, would that mean that the Chinese currency is floated by default.
Interesting concept, maybe each country would have to value the Yuan against their own currency, now that would be interesting.
By doing that would it in effect be a surrogate tariff system, certainly is interesting times.
Obviously this has a long way to play out yet, there is a lot of white noise going on IMO, Trump certainly isn't going quietly. 
Just my thoughts.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ment-ban-aims-to-cement-tough-on-china-legacy
From the article:
_He has already issued one executive order banning US investment in companies owned or controlled by the Chinese military. On Monday, 89 companies were added to the list. David Dollar, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said the order was largely symbolic, but Trump could take other “highly risky” measures that “a responsible policy-maker would not even consider”, such as cutting off big Chinese banks from the US dollar system_ .


----------



## satanoperca (1 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This is an interesting article IMO, especially the part about excluding Chinese banks from the U.S dollar system, would that mean that the Chinese currency is floated by default.
> Interesting concept, maybe each country would have to value the Yuan against their own currency, now that would be interesting.
> By doing that would it in effect be a surrogate tariff system, certainly is interesting times.
> Obviously this has a long way to play out yet, there is a lot of white noise going on IMO, Trump certainly isn't going quietly.
> ...



I have never understood this. China wants to be seen as a world economic leader on one hand, on the other a third world country. They peg their dollar to the $US.

Well China, if you want to play internationally, the Yuan should be free floating against all other currencies, and then see if you can compete.

Them picking fights with other countries will be to their detrement.


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I have never understood this. China wants to be seen as a world economic leader on one hand, on the other a third world country. They peg their dollar to the $US.
> 
> Well China, if you want to play internationally, the Yuan should be free floating against all other currencies, and then see if you can compete.
> 
> Them picking fights with other countries will be to their detrement.



That may prove very true, as we have said on here previously, the outsourcing of manufacturing to third world countries was intended to lift them out of poverty, not to enable them to own the world.
We seem to have hit the critical point in time, where the question requires an answer, it will be interesting to see how Biden addresses it, China has already shown its intent IMO.
Now China has placed tariffs on Australia, it has exposed the multinationals to having to make a decision, 'if they really belong to a country', because China can't complain when tariffs are now imposed on their products which in turn affects the multi nationals bottom line. 
Do they support China in the name of profits, or do they relocate some of their manufacturing to other countries, to protect their living standards and assist other poorer countries?
This corona virus has brought about a lot of soul searching and priority analysis, amazing times we live in.
Trump started the ball rolling on China and the multi nationals, but China has given it a lot more momentum IMO.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## basilio (1 December 2020)

Trumps efforts to isolate China economically can be countered by China developing its own digital currency which is usd internally as well as for payment internationally. This is a significant work in progress and  would enable China to decouple from the US dollar andperhaps create a rival international currency.









						China leads in race for digital currency – DW – 10/05/2020
					

China's central bank has made steady advances in its goal of launching the world's first major sovereign digital currency. As the EU begins prepping a digital euro, DW considers the impact of the digital yuan.




					www.dw.com


----------



## satanoperca (1 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Trumps efforts to isolate China economically can be countered by China developing its own digital currency which is usd internally as well as for payment internationally. This is a significant work in progress and  would enable China to decouple from the US dollar andperhaps create a rival international currency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wouldn't that in essence be the same as floating their dollar?


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Trumps efforts to isolate China economically can be countered by China developing its own digital currency which is usd internally as well as for payment internationally. This is a significant work in progress and  would enable China to decouple from the US dollar andperhaps create a rival international currency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only if Australia or any other country accepts it, IMO for a crypto currency to work, it has to be a universal currency.
Which I think will happen eventually, but all countries have to have confidence in its integrity, this is where bitcoin is failing no one can use it down the shop.
So unless China can get everyone to have confidence in their 'crypto currency' no one will accept it as a form of trade, if they can then it will become the world currency, but i can't see that happening as they have already shot their feet off in the trust department.
Just my opinion.
Trump has actually done a great job of exposing the China/multinationals cartel IMO, the warning flags and sirens are blaring around the world ATM, it hasn't been a clever play by China IMO.


----------



## satanoperca (1 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Only if Australia or any other country accepts it, IMO for a crypto currency to work, it has to be a universal currency.
> Which I think will happen eventually, but all countries have to have confidence in its integrity, this is where bitcoin is failing no one can use it down the shop.
> So unless China can get everyone to have confidence in their 'crypto currency' no one will accept it as a form of trade, if they can then it will become the world currency, but i can't see that happening as they have already shot their feet off in the trust department.
> Just my opinion.



Interesting point - TRUST.


----------



## basilio (1 December 2020)

China is introducing its digital currency for the Chines community initially. However it will also attempt to use this currency to pay for imports from various trading partners.

We'll see how it pans out but the belief that the US dollar is only way to trade around the world can be challenged.


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2020)

basilio said:


> China is introducing its digital currency for the Chines community initially. However it will also attempt to use this currency to pay for imports from various trading partners.
> 
> We'll see how it pans out but the belief that the US dollar is only way to trade around the world can be challenged.



Of course it can, but the world has to trust that the country of tender will honour its obligations, that is where the issue lies and where some are being found wanting ATM.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

Well at last NATO has woken up, if there has been one thing Trump achieved, it was to highlight the position China is putting the rest of the world in. 
Obviously the kick in the nether regions, that Trump gave NATO, had the desired effect and woke them up from their 30 year sleep.
Just my opinion.








						NATO boss says China challenge too great for US alone
					

The move reflects the reality that no single country can combat China on its own, according to NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## IFocus (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well at last NATO has woken up, if there has been one thing Trump achieved, it was to highlight the position China is putting the rest of the world in.
> Obviously the kick in the nether regions, that Trump gave NATO, had the desired effect and woke them up from their 30 year sleep.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> ...





NATO was a child of the US to project military power across Europe at Russia.

Europe carried all the risk allowing US troops and bases to be established while the US received the benefit of pressuring the old Soviet Union to spend a large amount of its GDP on its defences and securing the countries around it.

As a result Russia had to limit its interferences in US interests around the globe.

Win win for the US.

Clearly there were benefits military for Europe as well but it certainly wasn't one sided as the BS propagated by Trump.

Great powers project economic power followed by military power which is what the US did after WW2.

That's what China is now doing sound familar?

This is while Trump went with the US 1st policy withdrawing from agreements that projected US economic power while using military power as insurance.

By any measure as 70 million Americans voted for this I think its the end of the great US empire and its influence.

Given the mug punter responses lately of the Australian government to China's baiting we will be speaking Chinese soon.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> Given the mug punter responses lately of the Australian government to China's baiting we will be speaking Chinese soon.



Yes, they could "Rat F@@k us" yet.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2020)

* tear up the China-Australia FTA, it's obviously useless

* charge a tariff on all Chinese goods at the maximum rate that they charge our goods.

* if they ban one of our exporters, ban one of theirs.

* indefinitely suspend all further Chinese investment in Australia.

* put a levy on all iron ore exports to China and invest this in industries that could replace Chinese imports

* put quality standards on all goods and minutely inspect all goods of Chinese origin arriving here for quality standards.

* mandate Australian steel in all publicly funded infrastructure.

* stop treating universities as atms for overseas students and prioritise local students.

* ban WeChat and other foreign propaganda outfits from Australia

* reduce the number of Chines diplomats in Australia to the bare minimum.

Will the government do any of this ?

no, because they are gutless.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

@SirRumpole would any government do it, no because they are all the same. 

Would the general public put up with the loss of of cheap Chinese products? No because they love cheap $hit. 

Would the multinationals accept tariffs on their products manufactured by cheap labour? No as Trump found out.

Would the media back the Government? No, as Trump found out.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> @SirRumpole would any government do it, no because they are all the same.
> 
> Would the general public put up with the loss of of cheap Chinese products? No because they love cheap $hit.
> 
> ...




So we just suck up China's crap and bendover for more ?

As I said, gutless.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So we just suck up China's crap and bendover for more ?
> 
> As I said, gutless.



It would appear that Morrison is already copping it, for the stance he has taken already.
But I'm with you, we are better taking short term pain for long term gain, but I'm sure we would be in the minority.
I can't see many being happy to pay a premium for Australian product, just because it will give Aussie's jobs, if that was the case Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Sidchrome, the Albany wool mills, Meters white goods, AWA televisions would still be made here.
The older generation will soon be gone and the new norm will be way of the day.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear that Morrison is already copping it, for the stance he has taken already.
> But I'm with you, we are better taking short term pain for long term gain, but I'm sure we would be in the minority.
> I can't see many being happy to pay a premium for Australian product, just because it will give Aussie's jobs, if that was the case Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Sidchrome, the Albany wool mills, Meters white goods, AWA televisions would still be made here.
> The older generation will soon be gone and the new norm will be way of the day.




We can get cheap but higher quality goods from places like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan(which would really rile China).

We import a lot of food from China, which beats me when people keep saying we can produce enough to feed 75 million.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We can get cheap but higher quality goods from places like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan(which would really rile China).
> 
> We import a lot of food from China, which beats me when people keep saying we can produce enough to feed 75 million.



My guess is alternative supply chains will already be investigated, a friend who is involved in an electronics related company was saying, they are looking to source their cct boards from alternative suppliers.
The problem is most advanced countries manufacturers have outsourced production to China, it is still happening, Merc, Tesla etc are building factories there because they want to sell there and build there, so sourcing from elsewhere is problematic.
With food, we probably export the produce to China, they process it, tin it and send it back, we used to have cannaries but they were relocated to Asia when tariffs were taken off. 



			https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/tomato-safeguards/submissions/submissions-test/submission-counter/sub018-tomato-safeguards.pdf


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

China keeps tightening the screws, it must make Daniel Andrews sweat over the belt and road deal, it would appear China is a great friend until you upset them.








						China blocks more Australian timber exports amid pressure to take dispute to WTO
					

China's attack on Australian trade continues, with timber exports from two more states blocked and the number of meatworks waiting to resume trade growing to eight.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
China's attack on Australian trade is continuing, with timber exports from two more states blocked and the number of meatworks waiting to resume trade growing to eight. 
An official notice from China's Customs authority, issued earlier this month, notified Australian exporters that a pest had been detected in shipments of logs from South Australia and Tasmania, but did not specify what type.


----------



## dutchie (9 December 2020)

Australia is selling "the farm" for a Banquet today.

When the Banquet is finished, we are left with nothing.


----------



## satanoperca (9 December 2020)

Amended your post, hope you don't mind.

"Australia has sold "the farm" for a Banquet.

The Banquet is nearly finished, and we have little left."


----------



## noirua (16 January 2021)

China turns up pace on CBDC release, tests infrastructure prior to adoption
					

The yuan is not seen as a major currency. Could digitizing it change that? China is breaking new ground in the Shenzhen region and beyond.




					cointelegraph.com


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2021)

WEll @SirRumpole , it hasn't taken long to get back to business as usual, tariffs are nasty build it in China and let the people enjoy their decline. 😉
This last year the trade deficit has worsened, not because everything is made in China, but because of nasty tariffs, making imports more expensive. What a hoot.😂
Anyway it will be interesting to watch how the new U.S Government stops the slide, it looks as though one of the first cabs off the rank, will be Tesla IMO.








						Tesla Model 3 order page update hints at China-made electric car
					

Tesla updates Model 3 order page hinting China-made Model 3 will come to Australia, including possible Long Range variant.




					thedriven.io
				












						The verdict's in on Trump's trade war with China
					

A year ago the US and China agreed a truce in their trade war. The latest data confirms that Donald Trump's attempt to slow China's export growth and lower the US trade deficit has failed.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

_Last Friday was the first anniversary of the signing of the "phase one" trade deal with Beijing that paused the Trump administration’s trade war with China. Twelve months on, it is obvious that, contrary to Donald Trump’s conviction, trade wars are neither good nor easy to win.

Trump will end his presidency having presided over the three largest US trade deficits in history even as China recorded a record monthly trade surplus in December and, amid a global pandemic, its second-highest annual surplus.


Trade data released late last week showed China’s overall surplus rose 27 per cent to $US535 billion ($696 billion) in 2020, the highest since 2015. The December surplus, powered by an 18 per cent increase in exports, was a record $US78 billion. The $US317 billion full-year surplus with the US was 7 per cent higher than in 2019.

Earlier this month US trade data showed its overall trade deficit for the first 11 months of the year had grown 13.9 per cent over the same period of 2019, to $US605 billion, with analysts forecasting a deficit of close to $US900 billion for the full year when those numbers are released next month. The US trade deficit in November was the highest in 14 years_.
_While the deficit with China did shrink in 2019 and through much of last year – perhaps attributable more to the impact of the pandemic on economic activity than Trump’s tariffs – imports from China have been rising sharply recently as the US economy has bounced off its lows_.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

China may well have wedged itself regarding coal, now it has refused to take Australian coal on the basis of quality, they obviously wont be in the running to pick up BHP's coal assets in Australia.
Could well be a pull the trigger, before the gun clears the holster moment for China, in my opinion.
If an Indian company buys the assets, it won't bode well for China.








						BHP cuts Mount Arthur coalmine valuation by $1.5bn after thermal coal price plunges
					

BHP quarterly update lists Hunter Valley mine as worth between $325m and $455m




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 January 2021)

Sounds like all is well in China and it can get back to business as usual.









						China imposes sanctions on 'lying and cheating' Mike Pompeo, other Trump officials
					

China says it wants to cooperate with President Joe Biden's new US administration, while announcing sanctions against "lying and cheating" outgoing secretary of state Mike Pompeo and 27 other top officials under Donald Trump.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
*Key points:*

Beijing accused the outgoing and former officials of undermining China's interests and offending the Chinese people
They will be banned from entering mainland China, Hong Kong or Macao
Companies and institutions associated with them will be restricted from doing business with China


----------



## bellenuit (14 February 2021)

Two Arrests, Two Outcomes Tell a Tale of Xi Jinping’s China​








						Two Arrests, Two Outcomes Tell a Tale of Xi Jinping’s China (Published 2021)
					

A rural businessman, Sun Dawu, angered Beijing twice. His fate the second time around could augur the future of the world’s other superpower.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

February 2020 the Philippines tells the U.S to sod off out of the Philippines.








						Philippines Tells U.S. It Will End Military Cooperation Deal (Published 2020)
					

The notice comes as President Rodrigo Duterte has been warming up to China and increasingly distancing Manila from the United States, its longtime ally.




					www.nytimes.com
				




A year is a long time in politics.








						Philippines all at sea over arrival of 220 Chinese ships at disputed reef
					

The shipping fleet’s presence in a contested South China Sea zone is a litmus test for US President Joe Biden following America’s frosty Alaskan talks with China.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Philippines Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana voiced “grave concern” about the appearance of 220 ships at Whitsun reef, part of the Spratly Islands about 300km west of the Philippine province of Palawan.
On Tuesday, the United States weighed into the fresh standoff, with its embassy in Manila saying: “We stand with the Philippines, our oldest treaty ally in Asia.”

“Chinese boats have been mooring in this area for many months in ever increasing numbers, regardless of the weather,” the US embassy said in a statement.
China, which has built airstrips and military bases on artificial islands in the Spratlys, insists they were just fishing boats taking shelter due to poor weather.
However, Filipino political analyst and author Richard Heydarian said the assembly of boats was further evidence of China accelerating its aggressive ambitions, following its announcement last month of a new law allowing its coast guard to fire on foreign vessels.

“We’re moving towards a very dangerous phase in China’s domination strategy in the South China Sea,” he told _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age_.
Heydarian said it also demonstrated that Philippines president Rodrigo Duterte’s appeasement strategy towards Xi Jinping’s China had been “a total strategic disaster” for the country.

The Philippines won a landmark case at the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague in 2016 in a judgment that effectively cast aside China’s sweeping historic claims to 90 per cent of the resource-rich zone.

But after taking office that year, Duterte set aside the ruling at the urging of China.
Duterte’s spokesman took a far more cordial line than the nation’s defence secretary and foreign minister, saying: “We have a close friendship. Everything can be discussed between friends and neighbours.”

On Tuesday, he said Duterte would speak with the Chinese ambassador about the boats amassed in waters claimed by the Philippines.

The incident shapes as a litmus test in south-east Asia for US President Joe Biden’s new administration swiftly following its frosty diplomatic summit with China in Alaska last week.

“Back in 2012 [China] took the Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines and [Barack] Obama didn’t see it as a red line and shortly thereafter we saw a spike in artificial island construction across the South China Sea,” said John Blaxland, professor of international security at the Australian National University.

“They tested the waters and they knew the Americans weren’t going to bite. What we’re seeing now is a fresh one for the Biden administration and it comes after Alaska.”


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2021)

A well written history of Xi Jinping's life and rise to power, you have to take your hat off to him, he has achieved amazing things, from a very tough childhood in 'struggle street'.








						'Down with Xi Jinping': China's President has heard it since he was a teenager
					

Xi Jinping is the president of the world's most populous country, but as a child he and his family were humiliated in 'struggle sessions'.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (1 June 2021)

Good to see the USA acting practically and acting in concert with the EU and many other nations. Smart.









						Biden unleashes $US250 billion plan to frustrate China
					

China poked the bear with its ambition to topple the US’s global technological and economic leadership and by detailing the central role the state would play in achieving it.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Good to see the USA acting practically and acting in concert with the EU and many other nations. Smart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes good on Biden, for continuing the trajectory that was started earlier, not only continuing it but adding to it.

From the article:
A Senate vote on the bill was postponed last Friday as mainly Republicans continued to advocate for more amendments but is likely to occur once Congress resumes after its Memorial Day break in a week or so.

At the core of the legislation is spending designed to provide incentives for domestic semi-conductor manufacturing and research and development in strategic sectors like artificial intelligence, 5G wireless, quantum computing, biotechnology and robotics – industries that China has identified as central to its plans for global technology leadership and into which it is pouring state funds.
The original ambition has, however, grown into a far broader response to China’s challenge to US hegemony.
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It includes a reorientation of foreign affairs-related spending and diplomacy to the Indo-Pacific and funds to counter China’s influence globally.
It calls for Taiwan’s inclusion in international bodies; requires an unclassified report on the origins of the coronavirus; opposes international development banks’ assistance to China; provides funding to counter “predatory bilateral lending” (read China’s “Belt and Road” program) and would impose more sanctions on China for its treatment of the Uighurs in Xinjiang.

There’s also proposed sanctions against those engaged in cyber attacks against the US, with particular reference to China, and “transparency requirements ” and the threat of withdrawal of funding from colleges that have Confucius Institute partnerships with Chinese colleges and universities.

Along with the $US360 billion of the continuing Trump administration’s tariffs on China’s exports to the US, which the Biden administration appears in no hurry to revisit, the bill would represent a quite dramatic escalation of US efforts to improve its competitiveness against China.
The bill, if enacted, would overlay the pre-existing trade war between the US and China.

While the new US Trade Representative Katherine Tai and China’s vice premier Liu He have had an initial conversation in which the Trump tariffs and the current “truce” were discussed, there is no suggestion the Biden administration will lift the tariffs or the requirement under the truce agreement that China increase its purchases of US products by $US200 billion in 2020 and 2021.

Even though its imports from the US have been growing, China’s has met only about 60 per cent of its commitments under the truce and its trade surplus with the US has been blowing out as the US economy bounces back from last year’s pandemic-induced depths.


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## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

I see the Belt and Road initiative, is hitting a few speed humps.








						Incredible scenes as thousands protest Chinese university
					

People have taken to the streets in their thousands in Budapest objecting to a Chinese university being built in the Hungarian capital.




					au.news.yahoo.com


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## Knobby22 (9 June 2021)

China will hate the national broadcaster publishing this: 

No power, no lobster and no Grange. Whose idea was this, anyway?









						Never start a war unless you know you can win: How China's trade war on Australia is backfiring
					

Much to the chagrin of the Beijing bureaucracy, Australian trade is booming, driving a rapid turnaround from the COVID-inspired crunch that crippled the global economy last year, writes Ian Verrender.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> China will hate the national broadcaster publishing this:
> 
> No power, no lobster and no Grange. Whose idea was this, anyway?
> 
> ...



Yes this could all turn pear shaped for China, the more aggressive and more assertive they get, the more Western countries will be reluctant to invest. Which will mean China has to rely more and more on domestic consumption, while Western countries probably develop green manufacturing methods, so a trade war in earnest is likely to develop IMO.

It was interesting in the article, that the author said Trumps tariffs backfired, when it sounds as though Biden has kept them in place and in all likely hood going to increase them.
From post #410 above:
Along with the $US360 billion of the continuing Trump administration’s tariffs on China’s exports to the US, which the Biden administration appears in no hurry to revisit, the bill would represent a quite dramatic escalation of US efforts to improve its competitiveness against China.
The bill, if enacted, would overlay the pre-existing trade war between the US and China.


Certainly is an interesting period in our history.


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## sptrawler (10 June 2021)

The other thing that has to be taken from the current status is, China has achieved amazing development in the last 20 years, the Chinese population are expecting that standard of living trajectory to continue.

Most of that growth trajectory, has been on the back of Western countries outsourcing their manufacturing to China, as China has done by placing punitive measures on Australia, so can Western Countries do the same to China.

I just hope everyone takes a breath and comes up with a way to go forward.


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## macca (11 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The other thing that has to be taken from the current status is, China has achieved amazing development in the last 20 years, the Chinese population are expecting that standard of living trajectory to continue.
> 
> Most of that growth trajectory, has been on the back of Western countries outsourcing their manufacturing to China, as China has done by placing punitive measures on Australia, so can Western Countries do the same to China.
> 
> I just hope everyone takes a breath and comes up with a way to go forward.




If the rest of the world were to stop selling them food, China might have a revolution on their hands as starving people demand the Govt soften their stance.

I hope that Nations can sit down and negotiate a way forward so that China is satisfied with their progress but also respects other Nations rights.

The clash of political systems just adds to the problem


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## rederob (11 June 2021)

macca said:


> If the rest of the world were to stop selling them food, China might have a revolution on their hands as starving people demand the Govt soften their stance.



China is responsible for over 4% of global agrifood exports so your point is baseless:







macca said:


> I hope that Nations can sit down and negotiate a way forward so that China is satisfied with their progress but also respects other Nations rights.



Do you know anything about China?


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## Sean K (28 November 2021)

So, part of the Solomon Islands unrest is due to Chinese influence. They are on a roll. Their Belt and Road Debt Trap diplomacy is running rampant across the globe. I've seen it first hand in many countries all around the World, particularly to our near NE and in Africa and the ME. Weak and poor countries with questionable governance are being sucked in and will end up tributary states at best, vassal states worse, speaking Chinese possible.

China takes over Uganda's international airport. 

This is going to get untidy.


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## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Well @Sean K it isn't as though the outcome wasn't to be expected.









						‘Hidden debt’ on China’s Belt and Road tops $530b, says new study
					

New research suggests that many countries’ financial liabilities linked to President Xi Jinping’s hallmark foreign policy initiative have been systematically under-reported for years




					www.afr.com
				



From the article:
China’s Belt and Road Initiative has left scores of lower- and middle-income countries saddled with “hidden debts” totalling $US385 billion ($531 billion).

New research suggests that many countries’ financial liabilities linked to President Xi Jinping’s hallmark foreign policy initiative have been systematically under-reported for years. This has resulted in mounting “hidden debts”, or undisclosed liabilities that governments might be obliged to pay.

The findings are part of a new report published by AidData, an international development research lab based at the College of William & Mary in Virginia, which has analysed more than 13,000 aid- and debt-financed projects worth more than $US843 billion across 165 countries, over 18 years to the end of 2017.

The AidData researchers estimated that existing debts stemming from Chinese lending are “substantially larger” than previously understood by credit rating agencies and other intergovernmental organisations with surveillance responsibilities.

The pace of lending on the Belt and Road has slowed over the past two years. And this year the US has led a G7 effort to counter Beijing’s dominance in international development finance.

But the report highlights the lasting effects of a sharp transition since Xi launched the Belt and Road plan in 2013.

Where Chinese lending was previously mostly directed to sovereign borrowers such as central banks, now close to 70 per cent of China’s foreign debt is issued across state-owned companies, state-owned banks, special purpose vehicles, joint ventures and private sector institutions.

More than 40 lower- and middle-income countries (LMIC) now have levels of debt exposure to China higher than 10 per cent of their national gross domestic product, AidData estimated.

And the average LMIC government is under-reporting repayment obligations to China by an equivalent of nearly 6 per cent of GDP.



Or this report:








						How China's Belt And Road Became A 'Global Trail Of Trouble'
					

China’s Belt and Road initiative was unveiled with much fanfare and hope, but now, nearly seven years later, the story is much different.




					www.forbes.com


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## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

Poor old Lithuania has done an Australia and upset China, apparently China has blocked all trade with Lithuania, unlike us obviously they don't have iron ore and gas. Lol


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## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

As if things aren't bad enough already, now China isn't sending us urea, so our trucking fleet will have to source their Adblue, from somewhere else.


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## SirRumpole (8 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As if things aren't bad enough already, now China isn't sending us urea, so our trucking fleet will have to source their Adblue, from somewhere else.




Are they taking the pi$$ ?

Seriously, it could be really serious for our transport fleet if we can get it elsewhere or make it ourselves..









						What is AdBlue and why is a global shortage threatening to send the price of everything soaring?
					

You might not have heard of AdBlue, but you'll be all too aware of it if the supply shortage isn't sorted out. In the worst case scenario, Australia's economy could be brought to its knees.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Are they taking the pi$$ ?
> 
> Seriously, it could be really serious for our transport fleet if we can get it elsewhere or make it ourselves..
> 
> ...



If worse came to worse, the vehicle manufacturers could rewrite some of the ecu code, so that the truck didn't have to run the adblue it is only injected into the exhaust to reduce NOx emissions.
By EU laws they have to shut the motor down, if the additive isn't being injected, but as long as the manufacturers were given a legal waiver, they could reprograme the ecu pretty easily I would think.
I think a lot of it, is the media doing its normal, rev up the story nonsense. Get the masses wad punching their undies. 🤣
I don't think from memory U.S truck engines run adblue, only EU6 2015 compliant vehicles have adblue software and not all vehicles use adblue to reduce Nox.
it's a bit like having a sensor in your cars catalytic converter, that if the catalytic converter stops working the car stops, it wouldn't take long for the boys to chop out the catalytic converter replace it with a bit a straight pipe, then write some code into the map on the ecu that it's working a charm.  🤣
*necessity is the mother of invention*


Well that's my take on it.


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## SirRumpole (8 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If worse came to worse, the vehicle manufacturers could rewrite some of the ecu code, so that the truck didn't have to run the adblue it is only injected into the exhaust to reduce NOx emissions.
> By EU laws they have to shut the motor down, if the additive isn't being injected, but as long as the manufacturers were given a legal waiver, they could reprograme the ecu pretty easily I would think.
> I think a lot of it, is the media doing its normal, rev up the story nonsense. Get the masses wad punching their undies. 🤣
> I don't think from memory U.S truck engines run adblue, only EU6 2015 compliant vehicles have adblue software and not all vehicles use adblue to reduce Nox.
> ...



How long has adBlue been required?  I've had a diesel car for 12 years and only heard of it recently.


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## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> How long has adBlue been required?  I've had a diesel car for 12 years and only heard of it recently.



It was introduced in Europe by some manufacturers to meet the EU6 emission standards introduced in 2015, it is injected into the exhaust system to break down the exhaust gas to reduce the nitrous oxide emissions.
Like I said not all manufacturers used it some do but it would only be a change of ecu code to say "NOX level good" and a couple of other things.


_However, in early April 2019, Australia's Former Minister for the Environment, Melissa Price, quietly postponed Australia's Euro 6 fuel standards until a surprisingly late date of *1 July 2027*. Sulphur levels 'down under' will fall to the European standard of 10 ppm eight years from now._


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## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> How long has adBlue been required?  I've had a diesel car for 12 years and only heard of it recently.



Here is a good article on adblue Rumpy.









						Advice: Driver's guide to DEF (AdBlue)
					

A do's and don'ts guide when it comes to using diesel exhaust fluid




					www.trucksales.com.au


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## SirRumpole (15 December 2021)

Another thing that China has over the West, processing rare earth metals.









						Ever heard of neodymium? Chances are it's in the car you drive
					

Critical minerals are essential to the modern world and, while Australia is rich in them, China controls more than 90 per cent of their processing, prompting the developed world to look for alternatives.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (17 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> How long has adBlue been required?  I've had a diesel car for 12 years and only heard of it recently.



Here you go Rumpy, what did I say, storm in a teacup. But the media will milk it till, it is dry, absolute dicks. 🤣









						EXCLUSIVE: The radical plan to switch off anti-pollution tech in trucks, amid AdBlue shortage
					

The Federal Government is considering a drastic "last resort" measure, if Australia's AdBlue supply does not improve.




					www.drive.com.au


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## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

China putting the squeeze on New Zealand?








						China Reminds New Zealand Not to Take Positive Brand For Granted
					

Beijing has reminded Wellington of New Zealand’s reliance on China as a trading partner, saying the South Pacific nation’s positive clean, green brand shouldn’t be “taken for granted.”




					www.bloomberg.com
				



From the article:
Beijing has reminded Wellington of New Zealand’s reliance on China as a trading partner, saying the South Pacific nation’s positive clean, green brand shouldn’t be “taken for granted.”

“In China, there is widespread cognizance of New Zealand as a green, clean, open and friendly country,” China’s Ambassador to New Zealand, Wang Xiaolong, said in a speech posted late Wednesday on the Embassy’s website. “This very positive national branding is one of the most valuable assets of our relationship, and arguably the most potent marketing tool for all products and services from New Zealand,” he said, adding both countries should “make sure it will not be squandered.”

The ambassador’s comments come as New Zealand expresses concern over China’s recent economic and diplomatic approaches to a number of Pacific Island nations. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who this week met with US President Joe Biden, has cautioned against militarization in the region and questioned China’s intentions.

China is New Zealand’s largest trading partner, buying 30% of all exports and supplying 24% of imports. It was also a major source of tourists and international students before the pandemic.


Wang said despite the deep economic relationship between the two countries, “all is not rosy.”


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## sptrawler (10 July 2022)

China relaxing ownership rules to drive internal demand.
Interesting article.








						How China’s COVID-zero policy is giving economy a long-term boost
					

Under the cover of COVID, one of China’s most restrictive policies is slowly being unwound.




					www.smh.com.au


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## sptrawler (7 September 2022)

As I suggested, the Solomons, now East Timor, next Indonesia, the noose tightens.









						‘Don’t lecture us!’ East Timor president defends China, offshore gas drilling
					

Jose Ramos-Horta defended China’s role as a rising power, arguing it has “hardly ever” invaded other countries and was unlikely to do so in the future.




					www.theage.com.au
				



East Timorese President Jose Ramos-Horta has defended China’s role as a growing strategic and economic power in the Asia-Pacific, arguing it has “hardly ever” invaded other countries and was unlikely to do so in the future.
In a forthright appearance at the National Press Club, Ramos-Horta also said he would not be lectured by western environmentalists opposed to the development of a giant gas field in the waters off East Timor.


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## Knobby22 (8 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I suggested, the Solomons, now East Timor, next Indonesia, the noose tightens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The point is, if Woodside don't develop the field, East Timor will get someone who will. They desperately need it operating.


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## sptrawler (8 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The point is, if Woodside don't develop the field, East Timor will get someone who will. They desperately need it operating.



Yes but Woodside will have to stump up the money, to build something in a fairly unstable country, that gives Woodside no security of tenure and are the junior partner. Also East Timor have very limited experience operating anything, let alone a state of the art LNG processing plant.
There isnt a lot of upside for Woodside IMO.
Tricky situation, are the rewards worth the risk?


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## qldfrog (3 November 2022)

Jeep Quietly Leaves Huge Market
					

The emblematic brand of 4x4 has just filed for bankruptcy in one of the most important automobile markets.




					finance.yahoo.com
				



Not sure where to post it, but in my view, this confirms the fact China is using covid lockdowns/scare as a way to unhook from the west and China own export oriented economy, move to self reliance and internal market, most probably in preparation for major face off with the US and the clique clinging behind (..we belong it seems).
This is Ukraine lesson learnt not that it was not known before as both Russia and China economy attest now
Only good for weapon manufacturers, not good for Taipei or FMG BHP etc or Australia as a whole


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