# Melbourne running out of water: What to do?



## basilio (30 July 2009)

*What would happen if a city of 4 million people ran out of water ?*

 My view of the situation is that this summer/autumn Melbourne faces the gravest peril any city could face –  running out of water. 

So why do I fear a “no water/dead city” scenario? As I see it the following factors would contribute to the situation.

1)      Record low levels of water in the dams
2)      Long term drought which has dried up river flows to again, record low levels
3)      Similarly the catchments and countryside are at their driest.. Whatever rain does fall will not run off
4)      Fires in the melbourne catchments last year will further reduce run off as new growth takes the little rain that is falling

5)      The drought in melbourne will cause further pressure on water supplies as families and councils try to keep trees and gardens alive.

6)      Predicted El Niño which will create further pressure as the hotter drier weather destroys  our spring rains and creates even higher temperature patterns which reinforce factors 2-6 above.
7)      Evaporation from dams increases with El Niño. How much are we losing already ?  How much more will we lose?
8)      Probability of bushfires creates extra demand for fire fighting  water.
9)      On going heat wave conditions create demand for extra electricity. As our generators require enormous amounts of fresh cooling water for their operation we see another pressure on the dams.
10)  The current and predicted future drought is killing the Goulburn river systems. I believe that even if the North South pipeline is built there simply won’t be any available water to pump down.

Have I missed anything yet?  On the supply side I have another grave fear.

A few years ago in the discussions about  our water supplies it was made clear that the nominal dam  reserves were way overstated. Put simply there is limit below which dams can’t be pumped. We just end up with mud.

I remember that the Thomson dam  was supposed to have a bottom line figure of around 17%. Then “someone” found a way to get some super heavy duty pumps that that would take a bit more. But even allowing for that I wonder just how much of the 16.9% of the Thomson’s reserves are accessible?  As I now understand it the bottom line  is 11% full.  D Given that this still represents the largest dam we have the implications of not being able to access three quarters of the remainder are bloody frightening.

And what is the situation with the other dams? When does their effective supply run out ? 

According to all history after Sept-October, if we actually get any decent spring rains and run off, there will be  no net gains to our dams before  June 2010. 

How legitimate are these fears ? Is anyone in charge fully aware of the situation and considering what risk management approaches do we take to avoid the situation of  Melbourne actually running out of water? What do we need to do preserve our remaining supplies, find new water and somehow survive?

What do other Forum members think - particularly those of us who actually live here...


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## Timmy (30 July 2009)

Its OK.  Most people will have died from the swine flu long before summertime.


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## prawn_86 (30 July 2009)

Welcome to what Adelaide faces every year due to poor goverment planning and forsight.

Adelaide actually has an action plan in place to distribute bottled water if this situation occurs. So it shows the pollies have thought about it, they just cant be arsed doing anything of substance


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## Sean K (30 July 2009)

One long pipeline from Fitzroy River would fix the drought and make SE Australia one of the most fertile regions on the planet. 

No immediate votes in it though.


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## dbcok (30 July 2009)

Kenneth Davidson (I think) made the observation that the rain band had moved 200 km to the south,which adversely affected Melbourne's rainfall (Age newspaper a few months ago)
Only time will tell but seems to right so far.
Where I live in SA we have had 208 mm so far for July,more than for the whole year in Melbourne.
What to do-pray for rain!


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## wayneL (30 July 2009)

So the incessant rain here in Blighty isn't such a bad thing after all?


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## Trembling Hand (30 July 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Welcome to what Adelaide faces every year due to poor government planning and forsight.




if Adelaide was turned into a ghost town because they didn't plan for water shortages that would be some great government planning and foresight :


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## gordon2007 (30 July 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Adelaide actually has an action plan in place to distribute bottled water if this situation occurs.




really, I had no idea. Who's the lucky contractor that'll be selling these?


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## Agentm (30 July 2009)

we are using fluoridated drinking water to push waste down the toilets

what i dont get is why we are not using recycled treated waste water into our toilets again and also for gardens..

although i am very comforted and pleased as punch to  know the waste i put out will not suffer any plaque or gum disease, i think we have a long way to go on waste management down here, and victorians are missing the point a bit on how to manage things better.... 

surely rainwater and reclaimed water from the werribee  waste treatment plant, an indeed all treatment plants victoria wide can be better used for garden and toilets and we can not be so friggin anal about tooth decay in the waste we produce?


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## prawn_86 (30 July 2009)

gordon2007 said:


> really, I had no idea. Who's the lucky contractor that'll be selling these?




Good question. No answer here im afraid. A company whose board members are politicians mates no doubt


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## basilio (30 July 2009)

Not sure if bottled water is a solution to trying to run a city. But your point about Adelaides situation is  well taken. It is just as vulnerable - particularly with the Murray's situation.

Don't quite think the pipeline from Fitzroy crossing will reach us in time...

Other suggestions ? Or is the fact that we don't have a state of emergency in place to address the issue means my fears are totally groundless


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## Sean K (30 July 2009)

basilio said:


> Don't quite think the pipeline from Fitzroy crossing will reach us in time...



Nope, no votes.

My preferred solution is the World Bank tap the mouth of the amazon and run pipes around the world. 25% of the world's fresh water runs out to sea, lets just take 1% of that to hydrate the planet. It wouldn't be hard, the fresh water from the Amazon runs out hundreds of kilometers. There's oil pipelines running the same distances about the place. There's probably a little problem with diverting some of that, but the poles supposedly melting might make up for it.


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## Agentm (30 July 2009)

basilio said:


> Other suggestions ? Or is the fact that we don't have a state of emergency in place to address the issue means my fears are totally groundless




i know this topic was covered before, and the water catchments here are not being effective due to the clear fell logging of these giant ash forests..

people dont like to be associated with what is happening to melbourne, being labeled a greenie is like being  labeled a terrorist

the clear fell logging is a major issue for the catchments.

if there was an immediate ban on it we could reduce the impact over the next 100 - 200 years

if anyone is  remotely interested in the reasons for the water catchments suddenly losing all their ability to be effective for victorians then could read this .. and perhaps look over the entire site and learn a bit..

http://melbournecatchments.org/catchment-logging/impact-of-logging-on-melbourne-water/

otherwise just put it down to lower rainfall and live in a life of naivety


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## DVEOUS (30 July 2009)

basilio said:


> What do other Forum members think - particularly those of us who actually live here...



Don't move to Brisbane! 
We have the worst traffic congestion in the country (worse than Sydney now), and we don't need more Mexicans up here making that worse!!!

Having a sit-on-our-hands do-nothing state Labor Gov't has not helped the situation in a timely way either.

When I moved up from Melbourne 11 years ago, there were none of these infrastructure problems.


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## tech/a (30 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> if Adelaide was turned into a ghost town because they didn't plan for water shortages that would be some great government planning and foresight :




No worries T/H Melbournes leading the way again.
let me know when your thirsty I'll send over some Coopers pale.


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## Trembling Hand (30 July 2009)

tech/a said:


> No worries T/H Melbournes leading the way again.
> let me know when your thirsty I'll send over some Coopers pale.




Coupla weekends ago I was camping/kayaking on the Murry. Pretty cold first thing in the morning dipping in to wake up. It had its brighter side though. Knowing that my morning ablutions was Adelaide's drinking water next week. 

Victorians, :bath::flush: Ahrrr thats better

S.A.  :drink: Mmmmm thats nice.


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## trainspotter (30 July 2009)

Forget the Amazon. Pipeline from the Ord River Scheme would do it. The scheme created Lake Argyle, which is Australia's largest dam, covering an area of 741 km ².


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## Prospector (30 July 2009)

Victoria plans to steal more water from the River Murray dont they?


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## explod (30 July 2009)

Agentm said:


> i know this topic was covered before, and the water catchments here are not being effective due to the clear fell logging of these giant ash forests..
> 
> people dont like to be associated with what is happening to melbourne, being labeled a greenie is like being  labeled a terrorist
> 
> ...





There used to be a toal ban on logging within 200 metres of all forrest waterways in Victoria.   This was reduced to 100 metres during the Krennett Government regime.

Anyway if there is no more rain coming we need more and bigger coal driven desal plants.  And if we live under the ground we wont drink as much and be out of the road of the loggers too.


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## tech/a (30 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Forget the Amazon. Pipeline from the Ord River Scheme would do it. The scheme created Lake Argyle, which is Australia's largest dam, covering an area of 741 km ².




Ever been there.
Amazing!
I agree.

T/H.

Hell we're tough!


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## trainspotter (30 July 2009)

Fabulous waterway and the actual DAM itself is tiny ! More water than they know what to do with. Completely untapped (excuse the pun) natural resource. The Dam is 335 metres in width holding Lake Argyle's usual storage volume of 5,797,000 megalitres litres of H2O.


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## Gspot (30 July 2009)

I know what they will do.
Set up a new committee that will look into why Melbourne has no water, and  write a nice glossy report on 'Our Future Water Supply', all for say $15 million. Then the government can say we are urgently working on the problem, and worry about it again after the next election.


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## Absolutely (30 July 2009)

You can have our desalination plant. We don't need it here in Sydney anymore.


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## Prospector (30 July 2009)

This is a picture of what our stupid SA Govt is building across the stretch of the River Murray to stop acidification.  Bloody bureacrats did this with no consultation at all.

Courtesy of ABC.net.au

The Aboriginal Murray Flag, River Murray flag and Australian Flag are flying at half mast in protest.  The land at the back is Hindmarsh Island.  At the forefront is Clayton Bay.  Our house is on the 'wrong side' of the weir, meaning that we will have acid soils.  Land value has dropped 25% from last year.

And the video to match:
http://contribute.abc.net.au/_Matthew-Abraham-in-Clayton/video/737473/32422.html

contribute.abc.net.au/_Matthew-Abraham-in-Clayton/video/737473/32422.html


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## Agentm (30 July 2009)

explod said:


> There used to be a toal ban on logging within 200 metres of all forrest waterways in Victoria.   This was reduced to 100 metres during the Krennett Government regime.
> 
> Anyway if there is no more rain coming we need more and bigger coal driven desal plants.  And if we live under the ground we wont drink as much and be out of the road of the loggers too.





lol

the loggers will have to compete with the coming fire storm..

we are told the summer ahead is to be like black saturday on steroids


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## Trembling Hand (30 July 2009)

tech/a said:


> T/H.
> 
> Hell we're tough!




Yep ya must be.

Don't get me wrong I love S.A. , surfin Yorks, Ceduna, KI, Port Elliot. Luv em'.

But little old Adelaide


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## MrBurns (30 July 2009)

I think there's a good chance we'll be in real trouble and the State Labor Govt under grinning Brumby is useless.
They cant do anything, stuffed up public transport, cant look after the police force, ridiculous land tax and no water plan.
I have a water filter and I recommend everyone get one because as soon as the news hits that the water is no longer pure you wont be able to get one anywhere.


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## Sean K (30 July 2009)

A nuclear power plant in South Werribee, or that island next to Philip could be used as a desalination plant also, but thanks to our stupidity we can't have nuclear power in our own back yard. 

Fine to sell uranium to others of course. Even our future enemies.

Let's just keep burning coal....

And have no water.


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## basilio (30 July 2009)

I did get around to considering some of the drastic short term measures  we could implement to save of skins. Any thoughts ? 

1)	Investigate and organise tankers to bring water from Tasmania  to replenish our dams. Is this possible? Practical? How much water can be delivered?  What infrastructure will be required? Are there available  vessels? Can we book them?

2)	Investigate every large scale water using business and see how effectively they can reduce/reuse/recyle water. If absolutely necessary consider closing down some businesses if we believe drinking water deserves to be ahead of  business water.

3)	How can we reduce the amount of water that goes up the chimneys and out the rivers in our power stations? Is there an engineering solution within 4-6 months ? Perhaps even a short term one? (Close down a  coal fired power station ? Replace it with gas ? )

4)	Have a mass building campaign to store water off all the largest buildings in Melbourne.  What little rain we get we need to hold.

5)	Similarly attempt to hold and store any storm run off. Given that spring is our last realistic time for rain short of summer storms this and the previous item need to be a very quick priority.

6)	Investigate and instigate projects to reduce evaporation from all dams. I understand there is  an oily film which largely reduces evaporation.

7)	Have a mass education program with the objective of reducing domestic and commercial  water use to previously unseen levels. *Remember the water we save today we will be drinking in May..*

8)	Back up the previous action with the provision of instant remote water monitoring capabilities to businesses and households. I understand these have been  available and fitted for at least 12 months. They need to be rolled out. Start with the highest water users.

9)	Get Federal support for this national emergency. It will need some overriding legislation and some very direct funds.

10)	Finally ensure that we don’t irrevocably destroy our river and environment systems in this crisis through taking too much water out. Otherwise we create a situation from which we simply cannot recover. (i.e losing all of Melbs trees…)


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## son of baglimit (30 July 2009)

ive seen plenty of water tanks being delivered around melbourne lately - once the fools realise it aint gonna rain, watch for the hoses to be turned on to fill the tanks. absolute certainty.

i had mine delivered 2 months ago - it rained 6 days straight - filled it, and barely rained since.

the pipeline from the north to feed the upper murray and all surrounding districts (yes australias food bowl) - theres a stimulus package.


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## MrBurns (30 July 2009)

son of baglimit said:


> the pipeline from the north to feed the upper murray and all surrounding districts (yes australias food bowl) - theres a stimulus package.




Yes why didnt the little bastard do that instead of sending out biliions in the freeking post.


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## Trevor_S (30 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Forget the Amazon. Pipeline from the Ord River Scheme would do it. The scheme created Lake Argyle, which is Australia's largest dam, covering an area of 741 km ².




Don't have to go that far, the Burdekin Dam (SW of Townsville) had more then 1 Syn Harb (volume of Sydney Harbour) a day flowing over the spillway for months this year... and last year.. and the year before... and ...






They keep talking about building the wall higher.

Correction, that's 1 Syn Harb *every 5 HOURS* in 2009, my photo above was from 2008.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/06/2484820.htm



> So much water is spilling out of the Burdekin Falls dam in north Queensland that it would fill Sydney Harbour every five hours and there are fears more rain could cause widespread flooding in the region.




The Burdekin is the 4th largest River in Australia.


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## Trembling Hand (30 July 2009)

Whats all the fuss about. its raining.


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## ajjack (30 July 2009)

Seems its raining everywhere except Melb. catchment area.

Huey wake up!


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## trainspotter (30 July 2009)

WHy do they build dams where it doesn't rain?


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## Ghetto23 (30 July 2009)

How about you build a canal from NW WA? Barnett has some great ideas about this.

Treating waste water would be the best idea - apart from the stigma it creates...I recall seeing that they can make it safer than regular tap water these days...


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## Smurf1976 (30 July 2009)

No need to worry about the Amazon or even Lake Argyle when there's more water much closer to Melbourne.

Lake Argyle - annual flow at the dam is 4,400 GL

Tasmanian hydro-electric scheme annual discharges:

Derwent = 3138 GL
Gordon = 3271 GL
South Esk = 1945 GL
Mersey-Forth = 1936 GL
Pieman = 4907 GL
King = 1205 GL

Now, Hobart uses about 0.6% of the Derwent scheme's water for its urban supply (and we don't bother with meters or restrictions...) with the rest running straight down the river into the sea. That source alone could easily supply ALL of the water used by Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth combined. 

Now all we need is a Bass Strait pipeline. We already have a gas pipe, power cable and 3 fibre optic links across it, now we just need a water pipeline. 

In practical terms, running it from the Pieman catchment (probably straight from Mackintosh or Bastyan dams) would be a realistic way to do it and such an idea was at one time proposed. 

Alternatively, at the 100% certain chance of seriously upsetting the greens, we could build 3 new dams on the Arthur River and make 2800 GL available from that source while also reducing Tasmania's use of fossil fuels for electricity from 11% of total generation down to 5%. That water source would be very conveniently located for a Tas - Vic pipeline.

Tankers are another option worth looking at. Higher ongoing costs than a pipe but it could be put in place fairly quickly.


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## Happy (30 July 2009)

basilio said:


> *What would happen if a city of 4 million people ran out of water ?*
> 
> ...





Above all I would close city gates and encourage some departures, which probably would be happily taken up as many older Melburnians migrate to QLD anyway to warm up their older bones after retirement.

I could also mention halting immigration, but this seems to be like a red flag to some so I won't.


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## disarray (30 July 2009)

Happy said:


> I could also mention halting immigration, but this seems to be like a red flag to some so I won't.




there shall be no discussion of population management or sustainability for human beings. none.

WE MUST GROW!!!! GROW I TELL YOU!!!!


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## Smurf1976 (30 July 2009)

basilio said:


> 3)	How can we reduce the amount of water that goes up the chimneys and out the rivers in our power stations? Is there an engineering solution within 4-6 months ? Perhaps even a short term one? (Close down a  coal fired power station ? Replace it with gas ? )



Not really an option in the available timeframe for a lot of reasons (I'll explain if anyone really does want to know...).

But we could shift a significant amount of generation away from Vic in favour of NSW and Qld coal-fired plant very quickly. We could have it done tonight (literally tonight) quite easily from a technical perspective.

Look on the positive side though, at least things are becoming consistent in Victoria. Trains don't work when it's hot. Power doesn't work when it's hot. Now there will be no water either. At least it's consistent, predictable failure to plan rather than a one-off...


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## Buckeroo (30 July 2009)

Ghetto23 said:


> Treating waste water would be the best idea - apart from the stigma it creates...I recall seeing that they can make it safer than regular tap water these days...




Should ask the Brisbaners about this - They spent milliions on a system to drink their own piss, then it rained - the reaction by the people, hell we're not going to drink our own piss now!!

Anyway, luckily the Melbourners are close to the sea. All they have to do is fill up their jug with sea water, boil it and capture the steam - plenty of water then.

Cheers


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## Ghetto23 (31 July 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> Should ask the Brisbaners about this - They spent milliions on a system to drink their own piss, then it rained - the reaction by the people, hell we're not going to drink our own piss now!!
> 
> Anyway, luckily the Melbourners are close to the sea. All they have to do is fill up their jug with sea water, boil it and capture the steam - plenty of water then.
> 
> Cheers




De-sal plants are a lot more of an environmental risk than recycling plants.


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## queenslander55 (31 July 2009)

Stock up on Jim Beam Purple Label and cheap cubes of coke from Woolies...


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## gooner (31 July 2009)

A 747 full of new immigrants arrives in Australia every day.  Good for the economy especially as a lot of them do the crap jobs we don't want to do.

But it comes at the expense of water supplies and quality of living. Whole areas of Sydney are being designated "high density living" so you get apartments going up next to your freestanding house.

There's the solution and it's a cheap one


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## Surly (31 July 2009)

Smurf1976 said:


> Now all we need is a Bass Strait pipeline. We already have a gas pipe, power cable and 3 fibre optic links across it, now we just need a water pipeline.




Smurf,

You seem to have sensible answers to these sorts of questions.

Cant water and gas be sent thru the same pipelines and then separated again?

Could the existing gas pipeline be used in this manner or is it too small or gas flows in opposite direction or some other technical difficulty?

cheers
Surly


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## Buckeroo (31 July 2009)

dbcok said:


> Kenneth Davidson (I think) made the observation that the rain band had moved 200 km to the south,which adversely affected Melbourne's rainfall (Age newspaper a few months ago)
> Only time will tell but seems to right so far.
> Where I live in SA we have had 208 mm so far for July,more than for the whole year in Melbourne.
> What to do-pray for rain!




Aha, so the sneaky plan to change the weather & dump all Melbourne's rain on South Australia has worked!!


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## Buckeroo (31 July 2009)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not really an option in the available timeframe for a lot of reasons (I'll explain if anyone really does want to know...).
> 
> But we could shift a significant amount of generation away from Vic in favour of NSW and Qld coal-fired plant very quickly. We could have it done tonight (literally tonight) quite easily from a technical perspective.
> 
> Look on the positive side though, at least things are becoming consistent in Victoria. Trains don't work when it's hot. Power doesn't work when it's hot. Now there will be no water either. At least it's consistent, predictable failure to plan rather than a one-off...




There's a power station in Queensland Millmerran, which uses banks of giant air heat exchangers. The cooling water is a closed circuit system with minimal overall loss.

Maybe it would take time to build these (and copious amounts of money), but why not? - for a dry continent like Australia, why would you throw all your water into the air?

Cheers


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## Datsun Disguise (31 July 2009)

kennas said:


> Nope, no votes.
> 
> My preferred solution is the World Bank tap the mouth of the amazon and run pipes around the world. 25% of the world's fresh water runs out to sea, lets just take 1% of that to hydrate the planet. It wouldn't be hard, the fresh water from the Amazon runs out hundreds of kilometers. There's oil pipelines running the same distances about the place. There's probably a little problem with diverting some of that, but the poles supposedly melting might make up for it.




Hmm Amazon huh - how about some super tankers - anyone know how many litres the big ones hold? Might be something in pulling up at the mouth, dropping in the pipe, fill 'er up and cruise over to the highest bidder. Hell , maybe bottle it - Amazon river water! have to worth a motza.


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## Datsun Disguise (31 July 2009)

basilio said:


> I did get around to considering some of the drastic short term measures  we could implement to save of skins. Any thoughts ?




Distributed water catchment and recycling. So it works like this, every new home in Melbourne is required to have 5000 litres of water storage. A grey water filtration system treats the washing machine and shower/bath  water and stores it along with any rain water. Ideally all storm water pipes suppliy the storage solution. This stored water is supplied to toilets and washing machines, maybe garden, but perahps we have to accept that we'll be living in a dust bowl at some stage.....

On a large scale the cost to build these systems in would be around $4-5,000 - make it mandatory now.

A focussed gumint would provide significant rebates to existing home owners along the lines of the now dead in the water solar power scheme (overheard in industry / gumnint halls -"**** this solar thing is popular, this might actually impact our revenue !!!  shut it down quick!!!) Same thing for water, private companies own the supply rights, if we catch and recycle our own how to they make any money?

Short sighted privatisation. Some things do belong to the people, basic services is one of them.


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## johenmo (31 July 2009)

Living in regional VIC where the restrictions are nearly at the stage of not being allowed to drink water (ok sight exaggeration), I don't have much sympathy as Melbourne authorities have yet to get to the tightest level of restriction.  Thank goodness for those who are being frugal or it'd be worse.

Gardens etc look a lot better in Melbourne that outside Melbourne.

But I have concern because if it gets right down to it I think Melbourne will rate before country towns in the lineup for water because of numbers.  And that will see water limitations per day for country people & not for the city.  It's been done overseas, and they turn the water off for a while if you use too much.

Overall, we aren't as good with water conversation as a country as we think.


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## Aussiejeff (31 July 2009)

johenmo said:


> Living in regional VIC where the restrictions are nearly at the stage of not being allowed to drink water (ok sight exaggeration), I don't have much sympathy as Melbourne authorities have yet to get to the tightest level of restriction.  Thank goodness for those who are being frugal or it'd be worse.
> 
> Gardens etc look a lot better in Melbourne that outside Melbourne.
> 
> ...




Ohhh.... I dunno, johenmo - this watery thread is a pretty good conversation piece!


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## johenmo (31 July 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> Ohhh.... I dunno, johenmo - this watery thread is a pretty good conversation piece!




Ooops - typo.  But love yr comment!!!


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2009)

Surly said:


> Smurf,
> 
> You seem to have sensible answers to these sorts of questions.
> 
> ...



Gas flow is from Victoria to Tasmania with the pipeline coming ashore near Bell Bay (near the mouth of the Tamar River north of Launceston). 100% of all natural gas used in Tas comes via this pipe, there being no local gas production and no other pipeline.

Cost of the pipeline was $430 million (from memory) and it was completed in late 2002. This cost included onshore pipelines from Bell Bay to Hobart (250km) and across the north coast of the state to Port Latta (where an iron ore processing plant is located).

So pipelines can certainly be built across Bass Strait that's for sure. How much it would cost for an adequate water pipe I really don't know.

But consider this: Tasmania, with 0.5 million people, has put in the gas pipe and electricity cables in recent years at a combined cost of $1.2 billion. Whilst that was all privately funded, it is ultimately underwritten largely by state government entities.

Now, Victoria has roughly 10 times the popluation that Tas has. So I think Vic ought to be able to find a way of financing such a pipe even if it ends up costing a few $ billion. Maybe it would take the next 10 years to pay for it, but surely that's got to beat having no water in Melbourne.


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> There's a power station in Queensland Millmerran, which uses banks of giant air heat exchangers. The cooling water is a closed circuit system with minimal overall loss.
> 
> Maybe it would take time to build these (and copious amounts of money), but why not? - for a dry continent like Australia, why would you throw all your water into the air?
> 
> Cheers



It cuts water use around 90% I think. Certainly it could be done everywhere, and to some extent it should be practical to convert existing plants. It would take quite some time however...


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## Riddick (31 July 2009)

Ok enough of the rubbish. 
Melbourne and indeed australia does not have a water supply problem. The issue is a total lack of perspective and strong enough legislation aimed at monitoring and managing water resource use. I work in sustainablility and it is evident, when looking at settlement patterns and resource usage in melbourne and Australia as a whole (I live in regional victoria), that almost no thought, no enforcement, no forward planning has been invested in the concept of sustainability, proper allocation of water resources and the pattern of future development. melbourne does not have a water problem, it has a water usage problem. Melbourne recieves plenty of water each year but uses it so incredibly poorly. I live and work on a sustainable community and our average power and water usage per person is around 0.3-0.5kwh and less than 100L. this includes all household chores. We have a usage and planning problem and the solutions are very simple, though our current political system will always fail to deliver the appropriate outcome: No more urban expansion - utilise many of the japanese ideals of high density urban housing, cut down the size of private yards and discourage grass and other non native plants that are essentialy useless and consume large quantities and even easier, install rain tanks for grey water usage and halve shower times and laundry loads. change the behaviour, solve the problem. There is no water shortage just poor management.


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2009)

Riddick said:


> Ok enough of the rubbish.
> Melbourne and indeed australia does not have a water supply problem. The issue is a total lack of perspective and strong enough legislation aimed at monitoring and managing water resource use.



Sounds awfully like socialism to me.



> Melbourne recieves plenty of water each year but uses it so incredibly poorly. I live and work on a sustainable community and our average power and water usage per person is around 0.3-0.5kwh and less than 100L. this includes all household chores.



Plausible but I'd be very interested in hearing how those figures have been achieved without some "hidden" energy source masking the true level of consumption and whilst maintaining typical lifestyles.

Average TV viewing alone would use all of the power in your example whilst turning on the oven would blow the power budget big time. If the figures don't include TV, cooking etc then they're possible for individuals but not realistically scalable to the population as a whole.

I'm not saying it can't be done if you've got proof otherwise. But as someone who has spent his entire working life with things electrical, I just can't make those numbers add up for a typical lifestyle where people watch TV, vacuum floors, roast meat in the oven and so on.

Anyway, to the original question about water in a city (Melbourne) it's worth noting that cities use very little of the stuff anyway. Most water in this country is simply discharged straight into the ocean to become salt water. And most of the rest is dumped on farms where it evaporates. 

Very little ends up in showers, toilets, car washing, power stations and all the other things people seem to focus on.


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## Romano (31 July 2009)

We sure do have a water management problem. 
How many houses have large spa baths in their homes?  Lots I reckon.
How many people have to do an unnecessary load of washing every day? Lots I reckon.
How many people spend way too long under the shower? Lots I reckon.

That said, it is still industry that uses the great majority of the water.  

John Faine interviewed Tim Holding (water minister) this morning, and the comment was that if all Melbourne households stopped using water tomorrow, we would still have a water crisis.


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2009)

Romano said:


> We sure do have a water management problem.
> How many houses have large spa baths in their homes?  Lots I reckon.
> How many people have to do an unnecessary load of washing every day? Lots I reckon.
> How many people spend way too long under the shower? Lots I reckon.
> ...



Agreed BUT:

How many people unnecessarily buy newspapers or magazines? Very few could argue they actually need them. How many people throw out or stop wearing perfectly good clothes? How many people take unnecessary interstate or overseas holidays? How many people watch unnecessary TV programs?

And so on. Probably 99% of all the resources we use are ultimately not "necessary", water is but just one example. 

The notion of constant GDP growth on a finite planet is the _real_ problem environmentally. It works for a while but ultimately exponential growth of anything fails - a financial pyramid scheme is a classic example of this.


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## basilio (31 July 2009)

> Gas flow is from Victoria to Tasmania with the pipeline coming ashore near Bell Bay (near the mouth of the Tamar River north of Launceston). 100% of all natural gas used in Tas comes via this pipe, there being no local gas production and no other pipeline.
> 
> Cost of the pipeline was $430 million (from memory) and it was completed in late 2002. This cost included onshore pipelines from Bell Bay to Hobart (250km) and across the north coast of the state to Port Latta (where an iron ore processing plant is located).
> 
> ...




The water pipeline from Tassie to Victoria has been  canvassed and championed by Ken Davidson for at least a couple of years. It seems to make very good engineering and financial sense. But somehow it didn't fit the present Governments ideas for a desal plant.

In the short term the tanker proposition seems the most practical. But I'm sure it would need planning and engineering works that wouldn't happen in a few weeks.

*Which is why I am pointing out just how  close melbourne is to a real catastrophe*.

At the same time of course  we need to find every way to reduce and reuse our current water.  

I can't believe the "good news" story in the papers saying that July was  a good month for the dams because we increased supply by around .7% . Stream flows are still are record lows. The catchments are not wet enough to allow good run off. El Niño is on the cards.* And at least 2/3rds of the water in our biggest dam can never be pumped*


> Boost to Melbourne's water supplies
> Natalie Marshall
> July 31, 2009 - 3:36PM
> 
> ...


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## Smurf1976 (1 August 2009)

basilio said:


> The water pipeline from Tassie to Victoria has been  canvassed and championed by Ken Davidson for at least a couple of years. It seems to make very good engineering and financial sense. But somehow it didn't fit the present Governments ideas for a desal plant.
> 
> In the short term the tanker proposition seems the most practical. But I'm sure it would need planning and engineering works that wouldn't happen in a few weeks.
> [/B]



Agreed it would take a while.

My "wartime" plan would be:

1. Get some tankers from somewhere, anywhere on Earth. Should be possible but I've no idea of the cost.

2. Storage tanks (so the water can flow into pipes 24/7) and necessary pipelines at the Vic end. Might need to dig up a few streets but I'm sure there are people and machines in Vic that could be used for this.

3. At the Tas end, Pipeline from Paloona dam to Devonport and/or Trevallyn Dam to Bell Bay. The pipes would be partly above ground to facilitate quick and easy construction. Storage tanks at both locations to facilitate quick loading of the tankers. It might be possible to re-use the old fuel oil tanks and wharf at Bell Bay power station for this (?) - they hold about 50 million litres and are no longer in use now that gas is available. They have already been cleaned internally, and are sitting empty.

Still take a while but I'm sure it could be done fairly quickly under a genuine emergency situation if goverments get on with the job. Sooner rather than later would be the way to go - it's going to be a lot easier to ship in 20% of Melbourne's water for an extended period (maybe years) than to let the dams run dry and then try shipping in 100%.

Lost power generation in Tas due to taking water from those dams would be manageable. Would need to use a bit more gas to offset it, but it's doable. Only issue would be if there was a gas supply shortage, in which case Bell Bay power station (Tas) would need priority. That's an unlikely problem however unless a gas works blows up etc.


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## Dowdy (1 August 2009)

I might aswell use this thread to advertise my product

Sorry if this seems a bit cheesy...

_Looking for ways to optimize water usage without setting up a costly greywater system?

This fabulous toilet cistern not only flushes, but when it refills itself, it does so via a tap on top of the tank. You can therefore use the water twice by washing your hands in it before it fills the water tank.

Has the potential of saving billions of litres of fresh water in the Australian and global environments.

The water your toilet uses to flush is the same as what you use to drink with. Don't let that water go to waste!_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhrH96lSiZc


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## Prospector (1 August 2009)

Riddick said:


> Ok enough of the rubbish.
> Melbourne and indeed australia does not have a water supply problem. The issue is a total lack of perspective and strong enough legislation aimed at monitoring and managing water resource use. I work in sustainablility and it is evident, when looking at settlement patterns and resource usage in melbourne and Australia as a whole (I live in regional victoria), that almost no thought, no enforcement, no forward planning has been invested in the concept of sustainability, proper allocation of water resources and the pattern of future development. melbourne does not have a water problem, it has a water usage problem. Melbourne recieves plenty of water each year but uses it so incredibly poorly. I live and work on a sustainable community and our average power and water usage per person is around 0.3-0.5kwh and less than 100L. this includes all household chores. We have a usage and planning problem and the solutions are very simple, though our current political system will always fail to deliver the appropriate outcome: No more urban expansion - utilise many of the japanese ideals of high density urban housing, cut down the size of private yards and discourage grass and other non native plants that are essentialy useless and consume large quantities and even easier, install rain tanks for grey water usage and halve shower times and laundry loads. change the behaviour, solve the problem. There is no water shortage just poor management.




If there was a clapping icon I would use it here.  I agree, we do not have a water problem we have a water management problem.  And the environment always comes last ahead of financial interests.  And whenever I hear Ms Penny Wong blame the drought or Global Warming for our water issues I get so


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## Buckeroo (1 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> If there was a clapping icon I would use it here.  I agree, we do not have a water problem we have a water management problem.  And the environment always comes last ahead of financial interests.  And whenever I hear Ms Penny Wong blame the drought or Global Warming for our water issues I get so




I'm not sure its financial interests alone, I think peoples life style is just as important. As much as I agree with you that we are wasteful, realistically, technology is the key to fixing these problems, it's politically savvy, won't affect growth & people can continue doing what they do best whatever that is.

Putting a pipeline to Tassie would be a better option than desal for environmental reasons, but would probably cost more for Melbourners - Tassie would charge them for the privilege as well as the ongoing pumping costs etc (thats if its feasible).

Cheers


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## kincella (1 August 2009)

I live in Toorak, about 500 metres from the MIGHTY YARRA RIVER, its all there full to the brim, rushing out to sea............
no one seems to mention that the Yarra runs clean through the middle of Melbourne....'
its as if the river does not even exist....
why...is the yarra river never ever mentioned.....its full of water, 
there should be small dams built into the sides of the river, to trap the water, and it should not be allowed to run out to sea....
I find it ridiculous the talk of millions of dollars to take water from Tassi, or from regional Vic at a huge cost, so that Melbournians can waste as much as they like
in fact they should have been pumping the water from the yarra, back up into regional Vic, which has been in drought for over 15 years...
here it is raining in Melb again today, all that beautiful pure fresh water wasted, running down the gutters


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## Prospector (1 August 2009)

kincella said:


> here it is raining in Melb again today, all that beautiful pure fresh water wasted, running down the gutters




Yup, .  Our State Government has spent billions on a desal plant.  It has to get that money back.  It is no longer in their financial interests to capture storm water; it has to use the water from the desal plant in order to pay for it.  And charge the consumer squillions.  In fact, we wont have water restrictions when it comes online; we cant actually, because then the Govt wont get enough money back.

Our power goes off regularly in summer; to use this desal plant will require huge electricity useage; have we increased our electrical supplies?  Nup.


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## sam76 (1 August 2009)

Dowdy said:


> I might aswell use this thread to advertise my product
> 
> Sorry if this seems a bit cheesy...
> 
> ...




The Japanese have a similar system


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## Smurf1976 (1 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Our power goes off regularly in summer; to use this desal plant will require huge electricity useage; have we increased our electrical supplies?  Nup.



Victoria's power supply struggles even when _everything_ works perfectly. 

Assuming this summer has the same weather as last, the only way demand can be met is with literally everything working perfectly in Vic plus supply from not one but all of the states (NSW, SA, Tas) able to supply Vic. And of course that assumes NSW, SA and Tas don't have problems of their own and actually have power to send to Vic.

Must be a wonderful prospect to look forward to. Sit in the office with no air-conditioning because the power's out, become dehydrated because the water's run out and then walk home because the trains don't work. Victoria's infrastructure is a joke almost beyond belief in a supposedly wealthy country.

But this whole privatisation / competition thing is working as expected by anyone who gave it serious thought. Infrastructure doesn't get built in that environment or is built cheaply (so it fails when under maximum load). That this would occur was no secret at the time, but politicians didn't listen and now we're just starting to pay the price - there's more to come...


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## bugmenot (1 August 2009)

Is this not a stock/investment forum???

I am amazed noone has mentioned Carnegie (CNM) and CETO wave power so far. Has the potential to provide base load power and fresh water for all australian capital citys except Brisbane.

Essentially it is a wave power system which pumps 1000psi sea water to shore where it can either be turned into freshwater through a desal plant, or turned into fresh electicity via hydro.

www.ceto.com.au/
www.carnegiecorp.com.au/


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## Trembling Hand (1 August 2009)

Riddick said:


> Ok enough of the rubbish.
> Melbourne and indeed australia does not have a water supply problem.
> 
> I live and work on a sustainable community and our average power and water usage per person is around 0.3-0.5kwh and less than 100L. this includes all household chores.
> ...




I agree with your general statement that we have a management problem rather than water shortage one. But how much is your so called "sustainable community" really sustainable without the rest of the "unsustainable" Nasty Capitalist wasteful industry/community.

It could be argued that it probably comes from outside your "community".


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## Dowdy (11 August 2009)

Dowdy said:


> I might aswell use this thread to advertise my product
> 
> Sorry if this seems a bit cheesy...
> 
> ...




I got my shipment in today. You can purchase these now. They're listed on my ebay site http://shop.ebay.com.au/merchant/dowd_hardware_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_ipgZ

If anyone in these forums want to purchase one, let me know through PM and i can do it cheaper or you can try your luck with the ebay bidding (starting bid only $1)


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## Smurf1976 (14 August 2009)

Melbourne's running out of water, meanwhile Tassie's going under water...

Floods down here now following the massive rains recently. Bureau of Meteorology estimates a flow of 1200 cumecs in the South Esk river at Trevallyn Dam (Launceston) tomorrow whilst Hydro is forecasting 1400 cumecs at the same location. 

What do these numbers mean? In short, in just one hour tomorrow morning the flow at Trevallyn will be equal to Melbourne's water consumption during the entire decade of the 1990's. Yep, that's right, 10 years' worth of water in just one hour. And it will be flowing for a lot longer than just an hour...

Water shortage? No, we just don't capture, store and move the water have.

For anyone in Tas who wants to have a look, Trevallyn Dam is a short drive from Launceston CBD and is accessible to the public with a viewing area above the dam for taking photos etc. The water will also be very visible in the Gorge at any location.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

The sooner Melbourne runs out of water the better.

What a godforsaken place.

Living off the hard work of the rest of Australia.

A common small incestuous city, begot in a gold rush, with lousy weather and every godbothering clan fighting each other within its confines.

Long may it thirst for water.

gg


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## queenslander55 (15 August 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The sooner Melbourne runs out of water the better.
> 
> What a godforsaken place.
> 
> ...




For God's sake GG you're kidding aren't you?
We're wall to wall with bloody 'mexicans' up here now, and you want to foist the few that are left down there on us?  Give us a break!!!


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## Timmy (15 October 2009)

Well, here is some good news, a move in the right direction:

Melbourne's water reserves overflowing after rainfall

This is obviously a situation where "the sky is falling" is a good thing


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## Prospector (15 October 2009)

Reservoirs in SA are now full and a couple are overflowing.  But the excess water is being allowed to go out to sea, rather than letting Councils use it to water significant trees or put it into wetland areas to recharge the aquifer.  But our reservoirs still only hold enough water for Adelaide's needs for a year -we need to continue pumping from the Murray.  And our stupid water Minister the other day said they only planned to enlarge the reservoirs so they could hold more water pumped from the Murray, and not to catch more run-off.  So the enlargement is not happening.  Why?  Because the Govt is in the process of building a de-sal plant and we have to use that water because it means they can charge us more for it, rather than increase the capacity of the 'free water'.


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## pj2105 (15 October 2009)

Somebody upstairs must of read your thread...it hasn't stopped raining in Melbourne for days.

http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/water_storages/water_report/water_report.asp


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## Smurf1976 (15 October 2009)

Prospector said:


> Reservoirs in SA are now full and a couple are overflowing.  But the excess water is being allowed to go out to sea, rather than letting Councils use it to water significant trees or put it into wetland areas to recharge the aquifer.  But our reservoirs still only hold enough water for Adelaide's needs for a year -we need to continue pumping from the Murray.  And our stupid water Minister the other day said they only planned to enlarge the reservoirs so they could hold more water pumped from the Murray, and not to catch more run-off.  So the enlargement is not happening.  Why?  Because the Govt is in the process of building a de-sal plant and we have to use that water because it means they can charge us more for it, rather than increase the capacity of the 'free water'.



From an engineering perspective, the water "crisis" in Adelaide and Melbourne is entirely solvable. It's just that for some reason people keep listening to politicians and the "can't be done" brigade rather than relying on proper engineering which does have answers. 

Politicians lie whereas proper measurements and calculations are far more accurate.

Believe it or not, some idiots down here in Tas are trying to get federal funds to install a water meter on every house. Then they're going to start reading these meters and issuing bills based on how much is used. It makes sense in many parts of the world certainly, but here in Tas the cost of the meters exceeds the cost of what they're measuring so it's a rather pointless exercise. It would cost the same to fix the water supply bottlenecks and problems as it will cost to install meters. Why not just fix the problems instead?


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## Riddick (15 October 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I agree with your general statement that we have a management problem rather than water shortage one. But how much is your so called "sustainable community" really sustainable without the rest of the "unsustainable" Nasty Capitalist wasteful industry/community.
> 
> It could be argued that it probably comes from outside your "community".




Glad I left out that vital piece of information so I could lure one of the "inverted commas" people into my web.

our "sustainable community" is indeed just that.

some numbers:

* 1.5 megaliters on site harvested from rainwater and creek if needed. Onsite purification plant with UV filter.
* water pumped with 2x hydraulic ram pumps (no electricity required) to pump from creek if needed. back up electric pump.
* 360 solar panels in five arrays, seasonably moved hooked into an inverter with 180 storage batteries.
* 1 x wind turbine contributing constantly to base load.
* back up diesel if necesary
* onsite sewerage plant. once year maintenance.

* not connected to the Victorian grid for electricity and water. completely stand alone. This counts as sustainable.

Population serviced with this infrastructure: from 80 - 100.

We do have a bunch of water saving features but the biggest one of these is simply low water system pressure. No massage strength showers, just gravity feed.

THE most effective water saving thing is education and constant monitoring and reminding. 

If something isn't in your face you don't tend to think about it. such is the story in every capital city in Aus I have lived in (every one except bris and hobart). if it simply "comes out of the tap when i turn it on and costs nothing" then really it is not important to the vast bulk of th country. Until we make it more expensive or provide incentives to save water it simply will always be that australians will want their house and land package over sustainable urban design, it will be that australia will want a front and back lawn, feel the need to wash to dog, climb under the hose on a hot day. the list in endless. 

So I restate my initial assertion. we don;t have a water supply problem, we just have an chronic overuse problem.


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## Riddick (15 October 2009)

I've never made so many typos in one document before. I must be tired, and beg your forgivelness!


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## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2009)

Melbourne is a community full of bogans, centrelink dependents, godbotherers, old rich, criminals, and executives of corporations vital to Australia's future.

The latter would be better placed in Brisbane, Townsville or Darwin, cities with a future.

The sooner you run out of water the better. And keep the former.

gg


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## Julia (15 October 2009)

Riddick said:


> We do have a bunch of water saving features but the biggest one of these is simply low water system pressure. No massage strength showers, just gravity feed.



Oh, to hell with that, Riddick.  No one is going to take away my massage strength shower!  I don't stand under it for long, but it's just wonderful.
Seems pretty silly to me to focus on water pressure and low water delivery shower heads when people can stand under something that just piddles on them for half an hour if they choose.



> Until we make it more expensive or provide incentives to save water it simply will always be that australians will want their house and land package over sustainable urban design, it will be that australia will want a front and back lawn, feel the need to wash to dog, climb under the hose on a hot day. the list in endless.



Yes, I absolutely want a front and back lawn, yes I want to be able to wash the dog, yes I want to top up my swimming pool, and I'm quite prepared to pay for these privileges.  We are not living in a third world country.  We should be able to access decent quantity of water if we wish.  The technology exists and charges can be made to consumers in accordance with the cost of running the source of supply.
Btw I also have rainwater tanks.


> So I restate my initial assertion. we don;t have a water supply problem, we just have an chronic overuse problem.



I'd say we have a political inertia problem.


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## Garpal Gumnut (16 October 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Melbourne is a community full of bogans, centrelink dependents, godbotherers, old rich, criminals, and executives of corporations vital to Australia's future.
> 
> The latter would be better placed in Brisbane, Townsville or Darwin, cities with a future.
> 
> ...




This site is informative as to why we should deny water to Melbourne.

http://www.canberra.edu.au/monitor/articles/new/20080320_underbelly

gg


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## dbcok (16 October 2009)

Smurf1976 said:


> From an engineering perspective, the water "crisis" in Adelaide and Melbourne is entirely solvable. It's just that for some reason people keep listening to politicians and the "can't be done" brigade rather than relying on proper engineering which does have answers.
> 
> Politicians lie whereas proper measurements and calculations are far more accurate.
> 
> Believe it or not, some idiots down here in Tas are trying to get federal funds to install a water meter on every house. Then they're going to start reading these meters and issuing bills based on how much is used. It makes sense in many parts of the world certainly, but here in Tas the cost of the meters exceeds the cost of what they're measuring so it's a rather pointless exercise. It would cost the same to fix the water supply bottlenecks and problems as it will cost to install meters. Why not just fix the problems instead?




Are you saying that many properties in Tasmania have no water meter?I was in Tas for the first time in May this year and the towns on the east coast advertised that they had water restrictions.Is this usual for towns on the east coast to have a shortage of water?
The north coast seemed to have had plenty of rain.


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## Agentm (16 October 2009)

i just wish it would stop raining in melbourne, our catchments are filling up..

soon i wont be able to pay double for the water like the premier promised withing 2 years..

stop raining!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gdaf (16 October 2009)

http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/enrc/inquiries/Water/transcripts/02-02-09_Geoff_Crocker.pdf

http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/enrc/inquiries/Water/submissions/084_attachment_6.pdf


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## Fishbulb (16 October 2009)

Ross Garnaut and Tim Flannery - a couple of chicken littles or forward thinking luminaries? 

The jury is in


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## Smurf1976 (16 October 2009)

dbcok said:


> Are you saying that many properties in Tasmania have no water meter?I was in Tas for the first time in May this year and the towns on the east coast advertised that they had water restrictions.Is this usual for towns on the east coast to have a shortage of water?
> The north coast seemed to have had plenty of rain.



Homes in urban Hobart generally don't have meters. And for those that do have meters (such as mine) they aren't actually read and there is no water charge based on consumption.

Basic situation in Hobart is that water is a worthless by-product of upstream power generation. More than enough flows down the Derwent to supply every state capital city (in full) in Australia and then some. Given that Hobart only uses 1% of it with the rest running straight into the sea, there's not much point worrying about it.

It's different on the East Coast however with very low rainfall (around 500mm in a normal year), minimal water infrastructure and a decade of severe drought that only ended this winter. Those areas do have water shortages, and in most cases meters, but the underlying problem is lack of infrastructure rather than any inherent inability to supply water to these areas.

Basically in Tas we've got a ridiculous amount of water, 12% of all the fresh water in Australia, and we use it to run virtually the entire state on hydro-electricity (93% of all power in Tas being from hydro). But that's it. Irrigation is ad-hoc and largely a downstream by-product of the Hydro's operations. Urban water supply is much the same - it works fine where it's downstream of Hydro operations (eg Hobart, Launceston and parts of the North-West coast) but is close to pathetic elsewhere due to lack of storage, pipelines and investment in general.

My basic point is that it's a waste of time measuring how much water I'm using in urban Hobart. It would be far more useful to spend the money on actally fixing the problems on the East Coast etc. The cost of maintaining the pipes etc isn't going to drop if consumption falls, all the meters do is add another cost rather than fixing anything. That's a point that's been repeatedly made by countless people since the 1950's whenever the meter pushers have surfaced. My expectation, and that of many, is that the real purpose of metes is essentially a revenue raising operation.

As for Melbourne, well there's already an assortment of cables (communications and power) across Bass Strait a well as a gas pipe plus various oil/gas platforms and thier associated pipelines. How about adding a water pipeline from Tas to Vic?


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## >Apocalypto< (16 October 2009)

basilio said:


> *What would happen if a city of 4 million people ran out of water ?*
> 
> What do other Forum members think - particularly those of us who actually live here...




Move to Brisbane, plenty of water up there ATM................:grinsking


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## Julia (16 October 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Move to Brisbane, plenty of water up there ATM................:grinsking



Doesn't Brisbane still have quite rigid water restrictions?


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## Riddick (17 October 2009)

Julia said:


> Oh, to hell with that, Riddick.  No one is going to take away my massage strength shower!  I don't stand under it for long, but it's just wonderful.
> 
> Seems pretty silly to me to focus on water pressure and low water delivery shower heads when people can stand under something that just piddles on them for half an hour if they choose.
> 
> ...






1. If a massage is what you want I'll volunteer my services.

2. I can get some clippers for your dog. shave the little dear and washing will be as easy as using a wet one and a kleenex.

3. All our hot water is solar with solid fuel boosted in winter. each house has a gravity feed tank set up with two congruent systems, a solar heater on the north facing side of the roof and a convection heating plate behind the combustion heater. (all fuel sourced and cut onsite) You would be lucky to get a ten minute shower for 4 people so timein the shower, and as a result wate usage, is limited by hot water. I guess showers become what they were intended for originally, a simple method of functionally cleaning your body, as opposed to an indulgent luxury. (as much as a i used to love this aspect, 2 yeas in this environment has hanged my tune)

4. we are definitely not a developing nation and can and do access excellent quality water almost every where in the country. Quality is not the problem it's the amount we can access in certain areas. ridiculous wastage and 'old school we-did-it-as-kids attitudes are just not acceptable in this day and age. 

5. plastic grass is less maintenance than real grass and makes for a good wicket for backyard cricket. also stops the now bald dog from digging holes.


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## Happy (19 October 2009)

If water is such a problem, why don’t we slow down the demand by reduction of the number of *new users*? (including illegals)


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