# Look at my skills, point me in a direction for trading career



## lion_ (26 July 2010)

Gents,

The title was perhaps a tad misleading - I currently have no skills in trading.  What I do have is a real interest.

My background/skillset:
 - Business + Information Systems degree
 - Currently work in a large non-financial company in forecasting/planning, a lot of the work revolves around creating/modifying and using Excel based models (which I find quite interesting, believe it or not)
- Own a small business creating iPhone applications

I also used to be heavily involved in online poker, so am familiar with various probability theories/terms which I see popping up in these trading forums.  I also think I'm above average with arithmetic, but far from exceptional.  

I'm hoping a knowledgeable good Samaritan could provide some information for me on any of the following:

- A good beginners book to learn all the terms/concepts (I've heard good things on "The Intelligent Investor"?
- Recommend an "area" of trading and/or some strategies that my pervious exp. may help in.  I will be starting with low capital
- I'd prefere to specialise in a fairly risky/lucrative area of trading so advise there would be welcome too 
- A good source of information on Australian tax laws and trading

And any other tips that can differentiate me from the reported 90% of sole traders who make a loss in this gig


Cheers!


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## mazzatelli (26 July 2010)

I sounds like you have a decent math understanding and stat background, as well as being able to code which is a huge advantage.

I think you should try apply for a role as a market maker - it would suit you very well - that is if you would like to make the career change. Your knowledge with these firms would increase exponentially compared to sifting through books and working it out on your own.

Here's another person with a similar skill set - albeit with a more detailed description of their qualifications
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18407


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## lion_ (26 July 2010)

Thanks mazza.

A good read there.  On the MM topic, I'll definitely look into it but I'm not sure how successful I'd be.  I'm quite young (23) and only 6 months into my current role (grad program) with a few 6-month IT internships.  I've also got a ridiculous amount of quality training here so it's hard to look elsewhere.  Also, the Optiver 80 questions kind of put me in my place.


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## lion_ (26 July 2010)

The other thing to mention is I live in Brisbane, seem to be limited trading opportunities here.  I'd be welcome to a move (esp. to London) but would want to have something lined up first.

The big issue at the moment for me is that even though currently I'm in more of a modelling position, i'm learning domain specific skills in a certain industry which I'm not greatly interested in.  I can move into Finance for this large company but probably have to wait another year - a long time for someone as impatient as myself.

Might put a few feelers out there.


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## So_Cynical (26 July 2010)

lion_ said:


> I currently have no skills in trading.






lion_ said:


> I will be starting with low capital






lion_ said:


> I'd prefer to specialise in a fairly risky/lucrative area of trading






lion_ said:


> And any other tips that can differentiate me from the reported 90% of sole traders who make a loss in this gig




So you have no idea what your doing, have no money..you like risk but don't want to go bust. 

I'm interested..when you play online poker what sort of a game do you join?


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## makybe04 (26 July 2010)

I'm also in some desperate need of some good books, I've been reading non stop for the last week and need some new ones to feed my addiction. Can anyone recommend some? Is the book on the shop for this site "Universal Principles of Successful Trading" worth purchasing??

Also is there anywhere that i can bounce a few ideas off people in maybe a live chat or something like that?


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## GumbyLearner (26 July 2010)

lion_ said:


> The other thing to mention is I live in Brisbane, seem to be limited trading opportunities here.  I'd be welcome to a move (esp. to London) but would want to have something lined up first.
> 
> The big issue at the moment for me is that even though currently I'm in more of a modelling position, i'm learning domain specific skills in a certain industry which I'm not greatly interested in.  I can move into Finance for this large company but probably have to wait another year - a long time for someone as impatient as myself.
> 
> Might put a few feelers out there.




Mate 

You are so skillful it is totally apparent.

You should be able to land a job no probs.

Just a few questions. Where did you study in Bris Vegas? What about Uni where did you study? How about your family what do they do?  Do you have any business experience?


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## lion_ (26 July 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> So you have no idea what your doing, have no money..you like risk but don't want to go bust.




I have money, but as stated in my opening sentence, I don't know what I'm doing yet, so why would I invest a large amount of capital in something I'm new to?

Was hoping to have small "bets" in a lucrative/risky area, to get a feel, some experience, confidence etc.  Hopefully one day specialise in said area.



So_Cynical said:


> I'm interested..when you play online poker what sort of a game do you join?




One where I have +EV.

Now I'm curious - have you got anything useful to add or do you just roam around here wasting people's time?


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## lion_ (26 July 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> Mate
> 
> You are so skillful it is totally apparent.
> 
> ...




Would rather not go into specifics, sorry.

Plus I'm not sure if your response was sarcastic or not.  Clearly I am in no way skillful in this game.


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## mazzatelli (26 July 2010)

lion_ said:


> Thanks mazza.
> 
> A good read there.  On the MM topic, I'll definitely look into it but I'm not sure how successful I'd be.  I'm quite young (23) and only 6 months into my current role (grad program) with a few 6-month IT internships.  I've also got a ridiculous amount of quality training here so it's hard to look elsewhere.  Also, the Optiver 80 questions kind of put me in my place.




As stated before, its more ideal to learn with someone else's money. It doesn't hurt to have a go at the MM position. SIG [another MM] has different testing questions to Opt/Tibra - more probability and brainteaser type questions, rather than lightening fast arithmetic.

Otherwise you can try S&T divisions or front office roles of IB's e.g. analyst [quant, research] and transition into trading.

It will take some time, so be patient - make the most of your internships. You have a strong skill set to develop further in a professional capacity. 

I'm biased, but since you like modeling - becoming a quant analyst may be of interest, but will require further study. Transitioning from that into [non]linear derivatives and or fixed income is a very lucrative area.


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## Sir Osisofliver (27 July 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> So you have no idea what your doing, have no money..you like risk but don't want to go bust.
> 
> I'm interested..when you play online poker what sort of a game do you join?




Hi Lion-,

I don't want to seem critical of your perfectly valid question, but Cynical makes a good point here.

What you have is currently unrealistic expectations about what your potential returns are, and the activities that you need to do to achieve those levels of return.

Like many others here I'm going to ask you a series of questions, not because I want to know the answers, but because you need to know what your answers are - or do some research to figure out what the answers are to the questions I pose.

Are you planning on investing (which is a wealth creation activity first and income generating activity second), or trading (which is an income generating activity)? They are very different activities and you need to understand the differences involved.

Which one makes more money? 

What is the third dimension to the above question?

What do you know about economic cycles? What don't you know about economic cycles? What do you think you might want to know about economic cycles?

What is the heaviest traded financial instrument in Australia?

Here is a starting point. If you need me to ask you more questions... just ask 

Cheers

Sir O


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## bullet21 (28 July 2010)

makybe04 said:


> I'm also in some desperate need of some good books, I've been reading non stop for the last week and need some new ones to feed my addiction. Can anyone recommend some? Is the book on the shop for this site "Universal Principles of Successful Trading" worth purchasing??
> 
> Also is there anywhere that i can bounce a few ideas off people in maybe a live chat or something like that?




bought this book on recommendation from members of this site. Only half way through and so far worth its weight in gold. Another good one is Adaptive Analysis by Nick Radge.


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## GumbyLearner (28 July 2010)

lion_ said:


> Would rather not go into specifics, sorry.
> 
> Plus I'm not sure if your response was sarcastic or not.  Clearly I am in no way skillful in this game.




No sarcasm intended. 

You say your background is in Business - Info Systems. But you feel you are in a narrow field. I agree I graduated with that as one of my qualifications over ten years ago.

You say your current work position involves using Excel in a non-financial environment. 

At least you are not cutting code in a dinosaur language like COBOL. Or being shunted into an ERP Accounting field where you'll get paid well but will have to continue learning more and more via costly training courses without boring yourself to death.

The IT industry is full of deadends, ridiculously expensive courses, sexy yet young stupid recruiters and marketing "gurus" when it comes to dull financial management software roles. You might as well talk to a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals and/or power seeking femonazis on a daily basis if that's your thing. Because generally that's who you will end up working with. So I completely understand why you would want to pursue something else. 

If you want to be a full-time trader then I really can't tell you what to do.

I have no interest in that. But if that's what you want, you should consult a few pros on this site. I'm not one of them. 

Since you are a new member to ASF. It may take time to earn their tutelage. 

Stay positive.

Best of luck.


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## lion_ (29 July 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> No sarcasm intended.
> 
> The IT industry is full of deadends, ridiculously expensive courses, sexy yet young stupid recruiters and marketing "gurus" when it comes to dull financial management software roles. You might as well talk to a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals and/or power seeking femonazis on a daily basis if that's your thing. Because generally that's who you will end up working with. So I completely understand why you would want to pursue something else.




Couldn't agree more with this statement.  Did you work in IT?  How'd you get out?

I work in a non-IT Engineering department (i'm one of very few in my area without an Engineering degree), but through special projects I find myself dealing with IT more and more... and hence dealing with more and more incompetence.  I think far too many non-IT people "tolerate" poor IT performance simply because they don't understand it.  Some of the stuff we pay millions for is absolute garbage. 

Maybe you could provide some insights into this - using my data analysis/modelling skills from current position and "business background" (degree, project mgmt certification and own business experiences), would it be plausible to try and move into an financial "analyst" position for this very large companies Finance division in Sydney?  Do these corporate finance roles generally open the doors up to non-finance/economics grads?  I have no interest in bean counting, but would love to be part of investment analysis/research.  Do recruiters realise that "Commerce" and "Business" are the same degrees at some Unis?


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## lion_ (29 July 2010)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Hi Lion-,
> Like many others here I'm going to ask you a series of questions, not because I want to know the answers, but because you need to know what your answers are -




Thanks for the questions Sir.  It appears that I am indeed more interested/capable in investing at this point in time as apposed to trading.  Going to try and move sideways in my organisation into Finance, and try take up an investment analyst type role - which is pretty much what I'm doing now, but for only a small section of what the company is investing in.  In the future, with the acquired knowledge, I may return to the trading space.  For now I guess I'll stick to term deposits.

Thanks again.


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## Klogg (2 August 2010)

lion_ said:


> Thanks for the questions Sir.  It appears that I am indeed more interested/capable in investing at this point in time as apposed to trading.  Going to try and move sideways in my organisation into Finance, and try take up an investment analyst type role - which is pretty much what I'm doing now, but for only a small section of what the company is investing in.  In the future, with the acquired knowledge, I may return to the trading space.  For now I guess I'll stick to term deposits.
> 
> Thanks again.




Hey Lion,

I'm new to these forums and new to the whole trading scene, but I have been investing for the past couple of years (and it's been incredibly good to me, having bought 2 properties in the inner western suburbs of Melbourne in Feb of 2009).

I'm 23, have about 5years in IT (Specialising as an Automation/Performance Test Analyst) and a degree in Business/Information Technology. What I did was worked in IT during uni, then started contracting as soon as I got out.

Contract wages in IT are ridiculous (or maybe they're like that everywhere and I don't know it - check that one out for yourself). I'm currently on a 12month contract (and contract through an ABN - long story short, less tax) which allows me to invest a large chunk of my income. Since you're also interested in investing, I would suggest that you work on your career for the next few years, whatever it may be in. If you feel IT is the way to go, then you've got the degree behind you. If not, you may have to backtrack a little but you'll get there.

Thinking back about 3-4years ago, I remember how painful it was thinking that I want to invest, have done all this research but don't have the cash flow or the capital for it. I would seriously suggest developing your career first, then using that to create wealth through investment. If IT is the wrong career path for you, correct that now, otherwise just keep it going.


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## Sirloin Steak (13 August 2010)

lion_ said:


> Thanks for the questions Sir.  It appears that I am indeed more interested/capable in investing at this point in time as apposed to trading.  Going to try and move sideways in my organisation into Finance, and try take up an investment analyst type role - which is pretty much what I'm doing now, but for only a small section of what the company is investing in.  In the future, with the acquired knowledge, I may return to the trading space.  For now I guess I'll stick to term deposits.
> 
> Thanks again.




Interesting topic. 

Id recommend that you read up a lot on finance and investments.
Even read finance and business news everyday and see if its interesting for you.

Its probably best to make sure you will enjoy this stuff before you dedicate your career to it.

Best of luck and keep posting.



a


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## lion_ (1 September 2010)

Thanks heaps for your reply Klogg.

As an update.. I've had a very busy month reading up on all kinds of finance related stuff including trading/investing, even did a few "applied finance" online training courses through work.  One interesting thing I've noticed is the comparisons between playing multi-table limit online poker and trading.  In both, quick calculations, intelligence and excellent money management are key, while not letting emotions play any part in the decision making.   I've now decided I'm in the wrong industry..  

I've applied for two Market Maker jobs as someone recommended earlier.  The jobs seem ridiculous - 100,000 starting salary as a Graduate.. They are IMC and Liquid Capital.  Surprisingly I met all the requirements, except probably the exceptional marks, but the position even specifically asked for Information Systems experience and an entrepreneurial attitude.  

If I fail on these Grad Programs, probably going to go back to uni next year for a masters in a quantitative discipline.  I'm no longer content in spending 20 years climbing the corporate ladder pushing paper around.


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