# Any traders/investors trade the stock market full time?



## CATAPILLAR (7 December 2007)

Just wondering how many ASF members would be full time traders and not have to get up and "go to work" and made enough money a year, to live off and traded as a business.
Regards CATAPILLAR


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## MS+Tradesim (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

Well, I'll bite....I do.


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## zengin (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

how long have you been trading MS+ Tradesim
When I grow up I want to be like you
PS what do you mostly trade etc cfd,index


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## ithatheekret (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



CATAPILLAR said:


> Just wondering how many ASF members would be full time traders and not have to get up and "go to work" and made enough money a year, to live off and traded as a business.
> Regards CATAPILLAR




I only work on a consultancy basis , the rest of the time , I trade my butt off and do quite nicely . We bought outright ( 2nd hse) and I get to see the younger ones grow up now , I was never home for my eldest two and when I was , it was only for a couple of days if that .

I don't really trade our stocks , but they do get shuffled and reallocated from time to time . I am very active in forex though , the liquidity and movement being the attraction .


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## adobee (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

I dont but would love too.. I dont yet have the capital and also decided that success in the last two years is not reflective of the 'real market' and that I can expect to be as lucky in the future.. Unfortunately I have a job - my own business but dont get any work done cause I spend all day looking at the computer screen and asx I think it is an obsession ...!


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## MS+Tradesim (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



zengin said:


> how long have you been trading MS+ Tradesim
> When I grow up I want to be like you
> PS what do you mostly trade etc cfd,index




I trade ASX equities only. I would like to learn more about forex though. I've dabbled in FX in the past but had no idea what I was doing and lost my account!  Have read some books but really need to take the plunge and get some relevant software for it.


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## Sean K (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

Yep. Have been full time for 3 years, investing seriously for 12. 

International hedge funds (super)
Residential property (sold out for now, waiting for the crash to get back in)
Junior resource companies (main game at the moment)
Day trading (hopeless)

If you like sitting in front of a computer for hours with minimal personal contact then go for it. ASF has been my saviour. 

Can be pretty stressful if you can't leave emotion behind.


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## doctorj (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

Kennas, without wanting to drag this thread (too far) off topic - how has the volatility/drawdown been in your superfund with your hedge fund exposure?

I've read a lot of commentry lately about the sub-prime impact on hedge funds, but I'm interested in your real world experience...

My concern with hedge fund's exposure to sub prime debt is that there basically isn't a market for the debt right now - who know how they're striking unit prices at the moment??? Mark-to-imaginary???


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## Trembling Hand (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



CATAPILLAR said:


> Just wondering how many ASF members would be full time traders and not have to get up and "go to work" and made enough money a year, to live off and traded as a business.
> Regards CATAPILLAR




Yep I'm full time. Futures index scalper. (some long term stuff, SMSF as well as longer term ASX stuff)

A more interesting question would be how many full timers made their initial capital that enabled them to become full time through part-time trading rather than property or business?


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## ithatheekret (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



adobee said:


> I dont but would love too.. I dont yet have the capital and also decided that success in the last two years is not reflective of the 'real market' and that I can expect to be as lucky in the future.. Unfortunately I have a job - my own business but dont get any work done cause I spend all day looking at the computer screen and asx I think it is an obsession ...!




making money is an obsession .......... period


you just have to be prepared to take losses at times.


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## yonnie (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

full-time trader since September last year in ASX stocks.

have been at it for 9 years and through revisiting
profitable trades in the past I am where I am now.
must be a slow learner.

you wont find my strategy in any book or forum so trading experience can be a road to success.

now to make 10 grand a week consistently.............


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## roland (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

I still go to work, but make more from trading, which I do while I'm working, when business is slow my trading fills in


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## Julia (7 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*

No one has mentioned the basic importance of one's capital base.
If there's enough there, simply sitting on good blue chip stocks which provide steady growth and  pay good dividends with 100% franking provides a good living minus all the stress and time spent clinging to a computer.


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## Trembling Hand (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



Julia said:


> No one has mentioned the basic importance of one's capital base.
> If there's enough there, simply sitting on good blue chip stocks which provide steady growth and  pay good dividends with 100% franking provides a good living minus all the stress and time spent clinging to a computer.




Traders trade fulltime not just because they need the money but because there is a market to trade. You may be able to make easier money riding a bull market or collecting Divs but some choose to be traders and have no interested in a good living minus all the stress


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## stevo (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



trembling Hand said:


> Traders trade fulltime not just because they need the money but because there is a market to trade. You may be able to make easier money riding a bull market or collecting Divs but some choose to be traders and have no interested in a good living minus all the stress



I think that Julia was highlighting the importance of the capital base. It is  easier to be a "part-time" trader the more capital the trader has. 20% of $5 million is more than enough to live on, but 20% of $100,000 doesn't work! 

There is a grey area between trader and investor. I have trades that have been running for over a year, but I follow very strict *trading* rules that tell me when to get in/out and how much to buy. 

I would suggest that many full time traders should have the ambition to be a part time trader - then they can also have a life outside of trading  We shouldn't trade just because there is a market, we should trade because we know we can make money in the market.

stevo (somewhere in Marrakesh - riyad-al-moussika)


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## Julia (8 December 2007)

Thanks, Stevo, for explaining to Trembling Hand what I was saying.


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## Trembling Hand (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



stevo said:


> I would suggest that many full time traders should have the ambition to be a part time trader - then they can also have a life outside of trading  We shouldn't trade just because there is a market, we should trade because we know we can make money in the market.




For some (many?) full timers the market isn't simply a means to an end. I can make enough to live on in a much shorter period of time than I ultimately spend trading because I enjoy the challenges of trading.

Though I will freely admit that the market provides a great life to many on a part time basis and many many more hope it will some day.


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## yonnie (8 December 2007)

Julia/Steveo,

not everybody has a lazy $5 million laying around to invest in blue chips.

the rest of us will have to make their capital work hard to make a good living.

being a full-time trader doesn`t mean I have to "cling" to the computer all day; just a look once every 20 minutes is good enough for me.

waiting too for reliable mobile broadband and I`m down the road with my broker beeping me whenever I have a trade........

heeeeeeeeehhaaaaaaaaaaaaah


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## nizar (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



stevo said:


> I think that Julia was highlighting the importance of the capital base. It is  easier to be a "part-time" trader the more capital the trader has. 20% of $5 million is more than enough to live on, but 20% of $100,000 doesn't work!
> 
> There is a grey area between trader and investor. I have trades that have been running for over a year, but I follow very strict *trading* rules that tell me when to get in/out and how much to buy.
> 
> ...




Wow, Morrocco, nice.
Iv always wanted to go there.

Its important to make a distinction about what trading fulltime actually means?

To me being in front of the PC 6 hours a day is not an ideal way of trading, and is not my goal. Mind you if I could make $10k a week then I would do it. Everybody has their price.

But the most beautiful type of trading is like Stevo's where you can still spend time on your other businesses and you actually only spend 1-2hours a week on your trading.

An even better type of trading is what I call the ultimate -- trading a fully mechanical forex system where your buy/sell signals and money management are all directly linked to your broker, so you don't have to do anything at all. 
You would sleep better knowing you're gonna wake up paid!


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## Trembling Hand (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



nizar said:


> To me being in front of the PC 6 hours a day is not an ideal way of trading, and is not my goal. Mind you if I could make $10k a week then I would do it. Everybody has their price.
> 
> But the most beautiful type of trading is like Stevo's where you can still spend time on your other businesses and you actually only spend 1-2hours a week on your trading.




The perception that a businesses is easier money and easier work is wrong.
If you get trading right nothing else will provide you with the freedom. Not your own business not by a long shot. I have done both successful and not so successful but trading done full time and done right IMHO wins hands down.  And you don't need a spare 5 mil laying around (although it would help)


Nizar  $10k a week your setting your sights to low.


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## Timmy (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



trembling Hand said:


> The perception that a businesses is easier money and easier work is wrong.
> If you get trading right nothing else will provide you with the freedom. Not your own business not by a long shot. I have done both successful and not so successful but trading done full time and done right IMHO wins hands down.  And you don't need a spare 5 mil laying around (although it would help)
> 
> 
> Nizar  $10k a week your setting your sights to low.




This thread has become very interesting.

Trembling Hand, I see from your website you are a trader of mostly Australian intraday futures.  Is your 10K a week too low in reference to trading the SPI?  What would be a good target to aim for in the SPI?  I ask because of the level of liquidity in the SPI is relatively low compared to other index futures globally and I would be interested in your comments on this if you don't mind?  Thanks.


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## lau_gue (8 December 2007)

Hi,

As mentioned in previous posts it all depends how much capital you have to start with. Therefore the more interesting question is what sort of percentage return does the average trader make and what sort of percentage return can a good trader reasonably expect. 

Of course this percentage also depends on what the market has been doing so it is more meaningful to express the returns in terms of the all ords index. 

So for example, if the All Ords increases 13% per year can the average trader expect to return 1.5 times the AllOrds? And a good trader expect to return 5 times the all ords?

I am just starting out in the stock market with < 50K capital and I was just going to invest it and leave it but the more I get into it the more I think I'd like to get into trading. The problem is that at the moment I don't know whether it is really worth all the hassle. If the average trader only makes 1.5 times the All ords then its not so attractive, but if the average trader makes more than 2 times the all ords then it starts to look a lot better.

Thanks for any feedback.


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## Trembling Hand (8 December 2007)

*Re: Any traders/investors trade the stock full time*



Timmy said:


> This thread has become very interesting.
> 
> Trembling Hand, I see from your website you are a trader of mostly Australian intraday futures.  Is your 10K a week too low in reference to trading the SPI?  What would be a good target to aim for in the SPI?  I ask because of the level of liquidity in the SPI is relatively low compared to other index futures globally and I would be interested in your comments on this if you don't mind?  Thanks.




A good aim is not to lose that’s hard enough. But really there is plenty of liquidity in the SPI. 15000 contracts avg per day. with about 10 to 30 avg sitting on the bid/ask that’s more than enough to get you busy. If you traded 5 lots per trade you just need to take out 15 odd points per day avg to make $10k per week. 
Easily said but not so easily done but the point is as a business that’s a reasonably big business that you would need to take similar profit from per week and businesses like that are hard to run and need a big commitment time wise.

I got to say that I now trade more than just the SPI. I'm now doing more on the HSI, the SPI is just a warm up before the fun starts on the Hong Kong market


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## bevo (8 December 2007)

hang in there. we are retired and spent a few years building an income portfolio while we were working, and now we just live, and live well - especially with the extra franking credits and changes to the superanuation laws we collect a reasonable income. I still watch the ASX very carefully and move in and out of companies as i see the need


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## Timmy (8 December 2007)

Thanks for the reply TH, appreciate it.


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## adobee (8 December 2007)

I was of the impression full time meant - trading is your main form of income.. ie this is what you do and thats it.. not that you spend all day doing it. Part time i thought meant still hold a job and trade on the side..  I have some friends who trade in my opinion full time (they dont have other work however they will only be on the computer for 2 hours aday) mainly trading larger companies..

I would aim to trade full time i,e full time investor - spend couple of hours checking investments making trades and rest of the day relaxing .. thus i have to work hard for the capital base to do this in the first place.


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## yonnie (8 December 2007)

timmy,

I only do ASX shares without leverage and trading 6 figures. 
100%+yearly return on your capital is possible.
am still fine-tuning and it takes a long time to get really sharp.
changes in the market place and even going over to a new broker have their own challenges.

but apart from capital, you got to do the research and get  years of experience under your belt before you can smell consistent success.

until then, you better trade lightly.


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