# Aboriginal?



## Bobby (18 May 2006)

Hullo All, 

I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.

Whats an ABORIGINAL these days ?  

Bob.


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## websman (18 May 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hullo All,
> 
> I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.
> 
> ...




Same as an Indian (Native American) in America.  Lots of white folks claim to be Indian.

My Great, Great Grandmother was a Cherokee Indian.  Does that make me an Indian?  I doubt it.


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## mit (18 May 2006)

I think the definition is anybody who is raised by an Aboriginies and identifies with the culture and has some aboriginal blood. I'm cool with this.

People however who use it for handouts etc. I am not cool with this.

Michael


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## chemist (18 May 2006)

mit said:
			
		

> I think the definition is anybody who is raised by an Aboriginies and identifies with the culture and has some aboriginal blood. I'm cool with this.
> 
> People however who use it for handouts etc. I am not cool with this.
> 
> Michael




Your definition is incorrect. As far as the federal government is concerned if you have aboriginal descent (any, yes this is circular), identify as aboriginal (whatever that means), and are accepted as aboriginal by an aboriginal community (nice circular definition), then you are aboriginal.

cheers,
Chemist


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## krisbarry (18 May 2006)

I think its about 1/8th to 1/16th. now or even higher.

I know of a white male artist, who is part Aboriginal, gets special treatment from the government, applies for Aboriginal jobs, get them and is paid squillions.


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## visual (18 May 2006)

well according to Nanette Rogers,central Australia chief prosecutor,aboriginality is decided by how little they do to help themselves,and of course because of political correcteness are left to kill and main one another,after all wouldnt want to be accused of stealing again.
The stories she shared with Tony Jones on Lateline were heartbreaking to say the least and the abuse of infants deplorable,culture once again blamed especially for the treatment of women and children. What is it about women and children that can so easily be swept under the carpet of culture.(violence)


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## Happy (18 May 2006)

Equality for every Australian would be nice, but political correctness has to fade away, at least a bit.


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## visual (18 May 2006)

Happy,I agree with you about equality,but listening to the interview,it was pretty plain that the people involved want to be anything but equal.She made it pretty plain that ,they are guided pretty much by their culture,a culture that relies very heavily on punishment,hence if anyone cooperates with the police ,then they in turn get punished by the community(aboriginal),even when the crime is against children.
So often the police even though they are awere that something happened they cant proceed because of lack of evidence.

It seems to me that the stolen generation is now sentencing another generation to depravity and suffering,in those circumstances I think they should go back to stealing children in danger if they were ever truly stolen.

According to Nanette Rogers,there doesnt seem to be a point to aboriginal culture if this type of behaviour cant be corrected.


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## Stan 101 (18 May 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Whats an ABORIGINAL these days ?
> 
> Bob.





ABORIGINAL is an adjective.

did that answer your question?


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## Happy (18 May 2006)

Few days ago something was mentioned about rape of 7-month old girl in remote Aboriginal settlement.

People call for grog free Alice Springs

NT Chief Minister will ignore violence summit, as there was one 3 years ago and it did not solve anything.

All the issues are at least delicate, they thread on guilt, they touch democracy, they brush on self-determination and never let invasion word go away. Invasion is even included in Government run Internet site.


We can step up and fight for something what we think is right, or we can step back and look what others do with this great issue.


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## visual (18 May 2006)

Well,see what you say can explain some social problems maybe,however the impression I got is that ,aboriginal culture relies on being punitive and so as a consequence of that they know that as long as their victims are mainly aboriginal then they can continue as they like.
Happy that incident is one of the ones mentioned,also mentioned was the rape of the two year old,the rape of the 6yr who was also drowned in the process,sickening stuff,the father who fathered his own childs baby,I mean the list went on and on,but their culture prevents justice,this culture was here before the invasion so not everything can be linked to the white man.

But given all the money and programs in place to meet these people half way maybe whats missing now is someone who actually says enough of the victims stuff lets move on.Certainly its not lack of money preventing them from being part of Australia.


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## Prospector (18 May 2006)

_It seems to me that the stolen generation is now sentencing another generation to depravity and suffering,in those circumstances I think they should go back to stealing children in danger if they were ever truly stolen._

Food for thought.....


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## mista200 (18 May 2006)

Its a pity that aboriginals are not treated the same as everyone... with all their handouts etc. Heck, i was even going to tick the aboriginal and torres straight islander box on my VCE enrollment thingo..... come to think of it i should have.


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## Bobby (18 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Its a pity that aboriginals are not treated the same as everyone... with all their handouts etc. Heck, i was even going to tick the aboriginal and torres straight islander box on my VCE enrollment thingo..... come to think of it i should have.




Hey Mista if you tick it, I bet every thing is free   

Bob.


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## chemist (19 May 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> ...It seems to me that the stolen generation is now sentencing another generation to depravity and suffering,in those circumstances I think they should go back to stealing children in danger if they were ever truly stolen.




If they're still sniffing petrol in central australia, then it's unlikely they were part of the "stolen generation". The "stolen generation" were the ones removed from their dysfunctional aboriginal communities and put in the custody of white adoptive parents or whitey-run orphanages, mostly round big cities. This lead to psychological problems such as dreadlocks and wearing those stupid african kaftans.

Of course, removing children in danger from their parents is standard procedure if the child is white; if he's black he doesn't get the same level of service from Community Services.

cheers,
Chemist


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## sarahmeehan3 (19 May 2006)

Dont want to scare anyone off but yes I am of Aboriginal descent.

I think most replies I have read is in fact an indication of what many white Australians think about us Aboriginals.

Before any of you make any more comments may I suggest that you visit an Aboriginal centre or township and see for yourselves what the living standards are.

I do not get handouts, I am a very proud Aboriginal Australian and enjoy my volunteer work with the Aboriginals.

I am white and a fifth generation aboriginal. 

Yes, there is a problem with some aboriginals with the crime they commit and the elders of their group needs to deal with it. 
The aboriginal groups are going through change and we are moving forward. Do not let the few bad ones make it bad for all of us.
There are now more than 2000 volunteers throughout Australia helping Aboriginals in all sorts of work. 

Enough Said.

I enjoy this forum and the Stockmarket. Back to it. Hope the next few days are a little better.

Regards

Sarah


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## visual (19 May 2006)

Chemist,when I mentioned the stolen generation,what I meant was,the spectre of the stolen generation,now affecting this generation.

Sarah,I`m glad that you are in fact doing good and enjoying your social work.
But I think that you have to aknowledge that what Nanette Rogers was saying is accurate,and things need to change.It didnt sound like it was a few bad apples spoiling it for the majority is sounded like women and children were suffering in great numbers,in no way do I want you to think that I`m being racist,however seeing that it`s mainly women and children doing the suffering than I think whatever notice is taken of the people who are truly trying to help than as far as I`m concerned the more pressure the better.

Preserving aboriginal culture is all well and good but does the punitive aspect really have to be really conserved?

Even today in the paper theres a story where lawers in that part of the country use the defence that rape in aboriginal culture is different than in the mainstram culture,can you imagine the outcry if that defence was used against a white rape victim.


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## Happy (19 May 2006)

What surprises me is why people don’t say (with equal pride) of any other blood in their vanes, sometimes 60% or even 90%?

I can only be sarcastic if say what I think why, so I won’t.


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## Julia (19 May 2006)

sarahmeehan3 said:
			
		

> Dont want to scare anyone off but yes I am of Aboriginal descent.
> 
> I think most replies I have read is in fact an indication of what many white Australians think about us Aboriginals.
> 
> ...




Hello Sarah

I'm a bit confused by your statement:
  "I am white and a fifth generation aboriginal".

Does this mean your parents were one white and one aboriginal, or five generations ago someone was white and someone aboriginal?

Whichever, it seems that you are not a full blooded Aborigine which is neither here nor there to me.

What I * am*  interested in is why you and so many others are these days identifying as aboriginal when their genes also have other races as well.
This is not a criticism at all so please don't see it that way.  I am simply interested as to why this is happening.
To me, it's a bit like me saying that I'm Scottish  or German because a few generations ago that is what my ancestors were.

Thanks, Sarah
Regards
Julia


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## Happy (19 May 2006)

From ABC news:
“
PM takes stand against customary law
The Prime Minister says Aboriginal customary law should play no part in the way criminal courts treat violent offenders. 
John Howard has told Southern Cross Radio that criminal law is a matter for the states and territories but he says an Indigenous rights agenda has influenced a number of prominent cases.
Mr Howard says he vigorously disagrees with misguided efforts to introduce two legal systems - one for Indigenous communities and one for the rest of the country.
"Every citizen of this country, whatever their ethnicity, is entitled to the protection of Australian law, but is also subject to Australian law in all its dispensations," Mr Howard said. 
"I do not believe in any shape or form in the application of customary law by the courts or anywhere else in this country."
“

I know who would be next, to claim customary rape to get out, or not to get locked up.


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## MalteseBull (19 May 2006)

I don't think they exist anymore
they are all cross-breeds with english etc.. background..


they still claim to be aboriginal ofcourse to get centerlink money


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## phoenixrising (19 May 2006)

On the other side of the coin, I have a favourite story to tell in these situations.

In a small dusty country town in the Central West of NSW lived an Aboriginal family. The father was a hard working dignfied gun shearer who along with his wife did his best to raise 9 children. They lived in little better than a tin shed.

One of the kids took to hitting a tennis ball against a concrete wall (like Bradman with a stick) and got good at it. She was discovered by a passing professional tennis coach and mentored to win Wimbldon at age 19. I am of course refering to Yvonne Goolagong

Did she sniff glue, complain of being a victim of society and do nothing? No way, she wanted to do it and got a lot of support along the way.

No matter what we aim for in life we will probably hit it.


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

I know a girl who is blonde blue eyes. She has aboriginal heritage. Essentially it means they get cheap loans etc from the governement. Just another way a lot of them rort the system if you ask me.


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## rederob (20 May 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> I know a girl who is blonde blue eyes. She has aboriginal heritage. Essentially it means they get cheap loans etc from the governement. Just another way a lot of them rort the system if you ask me.



It's so amusing reading all this from people who probably have never lived with or worked with ATSI peoples.
I never realised how good it was to be an aboriginal.

Disclosure: I worked for ATSIC in the 90's when Keating was so concerned about aboriginal matters he attached the portfolio to the Prime Minister's Department.  The present government has "mainstreamed" aboriginal interests. That is, rather than have any over-arching body addressing specific aboriginal concerns, white people with control of multi million dollar funding programs try not to discriminate on who gets the money.  Howard remains relaxed and comfortable: If he is in office another 10 years there won't be a problem because there won't be any aboriginals to worry about.


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> It's so amusing reading all this from people who probably have never lived with or worked with ATSI peoples.
> I never realised how good it was to be an aboriginal.
> 
> Disclosure: I worked for ATSIC in the 90's when Keating was so concerned about aboriginal matters he attached the portfolio to the Prime Minister's Department.  The present government has "mainstreamed" aboriginal interests. That is, rather than have any over-arching body addressing specific aboriginal concerns, white people with control of multi million dollar funding programs try not to discriminate on who gets the money.  Howard remains relaxed and comfortable: If he is in office another 10 years there won't be a problem because there won't be any aboriginals to worry about.




Yeah right. There are actually geniune people of aboriginal descent who could not give a rats about that crap. free loans and all the bull****. So there you have it.

Once upon a time it was disdainful to be associated with aboriginals nowdays it seems its so coucha. 

Frankly its BS.


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## Joe Blow (20 May 2006)

One post in this thread has already been deleted because of racism and in my opinion there are a couple more that are close to stepping over the line.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear to everybody. Rational discussion of issues of race are welcome at ASF but racism is not. I wont stand for it.

I do not want to hear "All aborigines are (insert racial stereotype here)" Why? Because the only thing all aborigines are is, well... aboriginal. Racial, religious or stereotyping based on nationality is ugly and unnacceptable.

Racist posts will be deleted and repeat offenders will be banned. There are plenty of forums that welcome bigotry and prejudice. This is not one of them.


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## rederob (20 May 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> Yeah right. There are actually geniune people of aboriginal descent who could not give a rats about that crap. free loans and all the bull****. So there you have it.
> Once upon a time it was disdainful to be associated with aboriginals nowdays it seems its so coucha.
> Frankly its BS.



crackaton
I think you are right.
I am not aware of "free loans" being available.
Unless ......  you can tell us where they might be available?
I will then provide a link to the aboriginal people who are paying interest on their loans so they can get a better deal.

By there way, where do we find "false" people of aboriginal descent?
Are these just people who lie about their heritage - perhaps greedy, freeloading white people who do not give a rats?


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## mista200 (20 May 2006)

It would be good if someone showed a link for all their crappy extra benifits... hmm they even get more dole money than the rest of us...

I don't think aboriginals are getting any sympathy from white or yellow australians until they are treated equally......... Eg an aboriginal can get into practically any course they want at university whilst other poor people go without.. until they become "australians" they get no sympathy from me!


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> crackaton
> I think you are right.
> I am not aware of "free loans" being available.
> Unless ......  you can tell us where they might be available?
> ...




Look mate. I know a lot about real aboriginals, the wise ones. They know what is right and what is wrong. These people are respected. Then there's pretend indeginous people who jump on the band wagon for whatever reason.

For true aboriginals let them sort it out. For the false ones, well they're just freeloaders.


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> It would be good if someone showed a link for all their crappy extra benifits... hmm they even get more dole money than the rest of us...
> 
> I don't think aboriginals are getting any sympathy from white or yellow australians until they are treated equally......... Eg an aboriginal can get into practically any course they want at university whilst other poor people go without.. until they become "australians" they get no sympathy from me!




Fairly narrow point of view there.

I respect aboriginals that care for the land. I have little time for the likes of you.

I also note that you included the yellow annotation. Will my little yellow friend learn to mingle more and mouth off less. It's not difficult. lol


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## mista200 (20 May 2006)

The simple fact of the matter is ..... the government should treat all australians as australians and treat them equally.....until this happens its legislative racism... 

 30 years ago people were trying to hide their aboriginality nowadays people are trying to claim that they are "aboriginal" for the extra benifits....

its pathetic and the so called aboriginals should get over the "stolen" generation and realise that they are Australians.... just like the rest of us!

If i was aboriginal i would have loved to have studied law with a enter score of 50...lol


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> The simple fact of the matter is ..... the government should treat all australians as australians and treat them equally.....until this happens its legislative racism...
> 
> 30 years ago people were trying to hide their aboriginality nowadays people are trying to claim that they are "aboriginal" for the extra benifits....
> 
> ...




What does an enter score of 50 entail? Is that == an A+ average? LOL

You don't know sheit. You memorize verbatim and then expect to make it in the world out there. Any parrot can recite the psalms. When it comes to the crunch you have SFA. loser.


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## mista200 (20 May 2006)

Crackaton ... my point is.. aboriginals get reserved university places....other races dont!!

Why? /.

racism at its best!


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## mista200 (20 May 2006)

These benifits that "aboriginal " people receive don't help their cause..... they only make real australians less sympathetic!


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> The simple fact of the matter is ..... the government should treat all australians as australians and treat them equally.....until this happens its legislative racism...
> 
> 30 years ago people were trying to hide their aboriginality nowadays people are trying to claim that they are "aboriginal" for the extra benifits....
> 
> ...




here's the argument. Immigrant comes from overseas, perhaps russia, allegedly get knocked down while on bicylce as a tourist, claims compensation from our governement and uses money to live the high life. This sytem of ours is fraught with loop holes. It's like people just floating onto ours shores and getting the best treatment possible. Bugger geniune workers  that has gone out the door long ago.

well i personally am fed up supporting useless lay abouts.


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Crackaton ... my point is.. aboriginals get reserved university places....other races dont!!
> 
> Why? /.
> 
> racism at its best!




What's the difference? Asian students pay for University degrees. Most can not speak a word of English. Where's the justice in that? Money speaks you may say? Well in todays society any dead head can get a degree. What they do with it who knows. Smart ones don't even bother with that BS anymore. What's the point?


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

If you find a job/occupation/trade or vocation that you love then you persist with it to the highest level. It's called loving your work and you become proficient and the best in your specialty. These people always float to the top regardless  of education or background. If you are unlucky enough to never find this then you just work. You can have a string of letters behind you name but does not always mean that you are good at what you do.


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## mista200 (20 May 2006)

But that doesnt change the point that aboriginals can get into basically any course they want....because they are a so called "aboriginal"....

No cracaton asians as well as african and as well as uzbekistanis can pay their way throught UNI...it isnt legislative racism.... However giving aboriginals extra dole money is

How about we consider aborigianals as australians and no different from any other race that lives here!


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## wayneL (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> How about we consider aborigianals as australians and no different from any other race that lives here!




In principal, I agree. But the sad fact is, we don't treat them as equals. Yes they get extra benefits (it sorta irks my egalitarian tendancies as well), but the disadvantage of being aboriginal, surely outweigh that. 

I live in a town where the indiginous population is about 7%... about 2500 people. About 100 of those are real troublemakers, the rest just ordinary humans trying to make their way through life as best they can. Yet the rest are regarded as if they were the worst 100. Racism is rife here, it's ugly - disgusting. I could tell you some stories...

The thing is with humans, is that they tend to live up to the reputation people give them. If the reputation is in the pits, deservedly or not, It becomes very diffucult then for that group to progress socially or economically.

I haven't a clue what the answer is, but equality cuts both ways. How about we treat them like humans... give them a hand up so to speak. Then we can stop the hand-outs.


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## stockGURU (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> How about we consider aborigianals as australians and no different from any other race that lives here!



How about we do that when they are no longer treated as second class citizens. Would you trade places with an aborigine for a few extra dollars of dole money a week? Something tells me you wouldn't.

I can't imagine the amount of prejudice and discrimination they must experience on a daily basis. Have some empathy and don't be so quick to judge.


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## 3 veiws of a secret (20 May 2006)

I have a very cynical veiw on these types of topics, I thought 'Aboriginal ' only related to 'Ozzyites'.....but silly me never thought Canadians call their native Indians as ABORIGINALS also ! 
Furthermore ,whilst flying back from Bombay ,I chanced onto an Indian student studying nursing in Melbourne.When asked what's a matter with the Indian system? he replies in broken Ind'lish 'a diploma from Oz goes further then an Indian one.'
Lastly my daughters godfather ,who collects degrees,by the wheelbarrow,admitted to me ,that he actively scoured his family tree for a link to Aboriginal status(which a genuine link was found ).When asked why bother ,he muttered with red wine in hand "SCHOOL FEES!!!!". Which makes me think who is taking advantage of what systems.
I just chuckle about this ,and what happens in the outback,does the average Westerner really want to know what's happening outside metropolitan Australia. I doubt it!


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## crackaton (20 May 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> In principal, I agree. But the sad fact is, we don't treat them as equals. Yes they get extra benefits (it sorta irks my egalitarian tendancies as well), but the disadvantage of being aboriginal, surely outweigh that.
> 
> I live in a town where the indiginous population is about 7%... about 2500 people. About 100 of those are real troublemakers, the rest just ordinary humans trying to make their way through life as best they can. Yet the rest are regarded as if they were the worst 100. Racism is rife here, it's ugly - disgusting. I could tell you some stories...
> 
> ...





You know, I have spoken with lots of people. Some educated some not. I guess it depends on their attitude, maybe even the initial words. One thing I know. Liars never look you straight in the eye and speak the truth.


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## wayneL (20 May 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> You know, I have spoken with lots of people. Some educated some not. I guess it depends on their attitude, maybe even the initial words. One thing I know. Liars never look you straight in the eye and speak the truth.



  too cryptic for me cracka. What does it all mean?


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## rederob (20 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> These benifits that "aboriginal " people receive don't help their cause..... they only make real australians less sympathetic!



You might like to elaborate on these.
So far in every thread where you have been challenged for some substantiation of your points, you have not been obliging.
In most aboriginal communities there are few work opportunities, and those that receive benefits have pretty much the same entitlements as white people that would be in the same predicament of disadvantage.
It is true that there are specific benefits for aboriginals, just as there are for people with disabilities, sole supporting parents, carers, and other groups that face a disadvantage in society.
Unfortunately many people assume that because somebody says that aboriginals get lots of benefits, it must be true.
crackaton thinks that aboriginals get free loans - but has no evidence for this because it just is not true.
As for getting work, and "floating to the top", there are some incredibly talented aboriginal artists that have been incredibly ripped off by gifted white people and (lived or) are still living in relative poverty.  Fortunately today a lot more recognition is being afforded to aboriginal artists and many are now getting paid fairly for their works: By the way, these artists are what we would usually describe as "traditional", whatever connotation you want to place on that.
This thread is mostly about empty vessels sounding off, from what I have read.
It's not so much that racism exists, but that ignorance of the facts is more rife - perhaps these go hand in glove.
One fact that is not lost is the names that reappear on these types of threads.
But don't let me stop you from displaying your in depth knowledge of the manifold goings on in Australian contemporary society.
It's almost as challenging as picking bottoms!


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## rederob (20 May 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> Liars never look you straight in the eye and speak the truth.



Wayne
What's hard about that that?
To gain the correct meaning you translate key words about liars into their exact opposites, thus:
"Liars *always * look you straight in the eye and speak *lies*."

Which is somewhat counter-intuitive from my experience.
Perhaps crackaton mixes with an interesting group of people!


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## wayneL (20 May 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> Wayne
> What's hard about that that?
> To gain the correct meaning you translate key words about liars into their exact opposites, thus:
> "Liars *always * look you straight in the eye and speak *lies*."
> ...




Well having never read Junge or Freud, I am struggling with the context.

I am always befuddled by such conundrums.


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## visual (20 May 2006)

How and why did this thread descend to racism,
there are huge problems in some aboriginal communities ,even today on the news the startling statistic that aboriginal men under 16 actually suffer sexual assaults at a staggering rate compared to the white communities,the AMA wants peace keepers in these communities,why does no one acknowledge this.
Forget the government benefits someone should just tell these political correct people,who continually bleat about the stolen generation to shut up because their actions and words are actually killing innocent children .

I think that in this day and age we have some knowledge about how to preserve the good aspect of aboriginal life and not alienating aboriginals from their our culture and lifestyle,so if it means removing these children to a safe place and educating them,who knows they might actually be able to combine the two cultures to finally get something good out of all the suffering.Just a thought.


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## sarahmeehan3 (20 May 2006)

We'll I cannot believe this debate on a stockmarket forum. 

Let me clarify a few things, so that we are all clear.

1/ Cheap housing loans are only available to the value of 140,000. They are offered at 1% for people on low incomes and I do mean low incomes. It is designed to help the aboriginal people to become ownership of property and develop their community. Most of these loans are for people who live in places of the such as Shepparton Vic and many parts of W.A. outback.

No, not everyone gets the cheap loan and it is checked by the elders of each area.

Yes, the government is incouraging many aboriginals such as myself to be educated so that there is less reliance on government handouts. I am educated and do very well out of the stock market. All of my income comes from the stock market. I have not relied on government handouts and encourage all other aboriginals to do the same. 

The government passed laws some time ago that allowed up to 6th generation aboriginals to be classified as aboriginals. 

As for myself, my past is in tasmania. My grandmother who was part aboriginal told me what happend to her family and where she came from. Under the White policy in Tasmania at the time most of our family were shot or hanged. Many of the English sailors at the time raped many aboriginal women. It is with thanks to the nuns who started a convent in Tasmania that I am writing this today. They protected some aboriginals and thats where our family starts from.

I encourage in my volunteer work with the aboriginals how they can better themselves all the time. I want them to succeed, because I know that relying on government handouts does very little to help their lifestyle.

I better stop. I can go on forever, but it is not up to me to explain everything. Why not, volunteer to do something in your community and you will soon realise how lucky you really are.

I need to get back to the stock market. This is what this forum is all about. Lets continue to learn together how we can make a little more money.
Hopefully the Australian Market will pick up.

Regard

Sarah


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## RichKid (20 May 2006)

3 veiws of a secret said:
			
		

> I have a very cynical veiw on these types of topics, I thought 'Aboriginal ' only related to 'Ozzyites'.....but silly me never thought Canadians call their native Indians as ABORIGINALS also !
> Furthermore ,whilst flying back from Bombay ,I chanced onto an Indian student studying nursing in Melbourne.When asked what's a matter with the Indian system? he replies in broken Ind'lish 'a diploma from Oz goes further then an Indian one.'
> Lastly my daughters godfather ,who collects degrees,by the wheelbarrow,admitted to me ,that he actively scoured his family tree for a link to Aboriginal status(which a genuine link was found ).When asked why bother ,he muttered with red wine in hand "SCHOOL FEES!!!!". Which makes me think who is taking advantage of what systems.
> I just chuckle about this ,and what happens in the outback,does the average Westerner really want to know what's happening outside metropolitan Australia. I doubt it!




Just had a look at this thread thread, didn't realise it had got so long.

Firstly, aborigine (ab origin) means 'from the beginning' ie those who were there from the beginning. My Latin is hopeless but that's the gist of it. So it can apply to various indigenous communities.

Also, if non-Aboriginals rort the system why should genuine Aboriginals be blamed?

About this business of eye contact, it's a cultural thing- it's unreasonable to pin someone down as dishonest based on that alone imho, I didn't think people still used it as a hard and fast rule. The Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody report will have a good discussion of it ih the context of policing, just google it.

I agree with your recent post rederob. Ignorance can lead to many misconceptions; but you also have people who are well informed but choose to act in wicked ways.

btw, nice show of technique with the negatives in that sentence.

See this article for an illustration of some of the cultural differences, does this mean we should treat the original inhabitants badly because we have power over them, and because it's convenient for the majority? You don't have to live in the bush and dress like a 'native' to be an Aboriginal. There is an inherent danger in judging a person's character and sense of identity by their physical appearance alone (eg skin colour, attire, body language): http://www.smh.com.au/news/film/in-search-of-lost-time/2006/05/18/1147545448698.html


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2006)

Rich, Red,

What am I missing with this eyes and lying business? I'm lost.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2006)

Sarah
I hope thestock market improves too.
Actually, I think that's a pretty safe call in the medium term, so am not too worried for the moment.
As for housing loans, only around 500 are approved annually under federal funding each year, while some States have supplementary programs.
For example, I believe about 40-50 loans are given in WA each year, but with a $250k price cap and interest around 6%.
Similar programs are also available for non-aboriginal people in some States to purchase former Housing Commission homes.

On the issue of "racism" per se, I would guarantee that if a community of white Australians were ever found in the same living conditions as exist in some remote aboriginal communities, there would be national outrage: They have not; there is not. It is a state of affairs we are inured to.


----------



## RichKid (20 May 2006)

stockGURU said:
			
		

> How about we do that when they are no longer treated as second class citizens. Would you trade places with an aborigine for a few extra dollars of dole money a week? Something tells me you wouldn't.
> 
> I can't imagine the amount of prejudice and discrimination they must experience on a daily basis. Have some empathy and don't be so quick to judge.




People should watch blue eyes/brown eyes, I saw the US version, here's the site for the Australian one, very powerful if you can watch the entire experiment, it will move you, it's a shame these things really happened in America (and continue to happen), how can humans be so wicked to each other? http://www.sbs.com.au/australianeye/

btw, 'benefits' are often intended to put people on par with others or to at least bring them upto a basic level of comfort. In that sense it may be a misnomer in that it suggests you get something extra, we may have to view the term in a different light. 

For eg, $100 given to a poor family may help prevent starvation or malnourishment; give the same $100 to a better off family (who call it 'a handout' when in the hands of a more disadvantaged family) and it may go on the mortgage or school uniforms- the latter items are clearly luxuries for the first family. And yes, a mortgage can be a luxury to some, that is sad. 

What is worse is that when people focus on these things they just blame the Aboriginal beneficiaries when criticising any flaws in the system.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Rich, Red,
> 
> What am I missing with this eyes and lying business? I'm lost.



So was crackaton, I would bet!

It is a cultural issue whereby eyes down is typically a sign of respect.  Rather than it being a "lie", it is more likely a compliment.


----------



## RichKid (20 May 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> So was crackaton, I would bet!
> 
> It is a cultural issue whereby eyes down is typically a sign of respect.  Rather than it being a "lie", it is more likely a compliment.




Yes, that's right, a sign of deference to authority in some Asian cultures, like bowing your head as the schoolmaster scolds you. To stare straight into a person's eyes can be a threat- like in the animal kingdom, you stare at or show your teeth to a monkey and it may rip your eyes out. In medieval Japan a samurai was justified in beheading a peasant if he wasn't on all fours with his eyes to the ground.


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2006)

IC

Thanks chaps, got it


----------



## crackaton (21 May 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> How and why did this thread descend to racism,
> there are huge problems in some aboriginal communities ,even today on the news the startling statistic that aboriginal men under 16 actually suffer sexual assaults at a staggering rate compared to the white communities,the AMA wants peace keepers in these communities,why does no one acknowledge this.
> Forget the government benefits someone should just tell these political correct people,who continually bleat about the stolen generation to shut up because their actions and words are actually killing innocent children .
> 
> I think that in this day and age we have some knowledge about how to preserve the good aspect of aboriginal life and not alienating aboriginals from their our culture and lifestyle,so if it means removing these children to a safe place and educating them,who knows they might actually be able to combine the two cultures to finally get something good out of all the suffering.Just a thought.




You know what gets me? Every know and again the media gets bored and has to beat up yet another story. These sorts of problems have been around for years. And then shock horror we need a new headline for the morning rag because there isn't a war happening or two guys stuck down a whole or whatever. Perhaps some people should just get a life rather than watching the idiot box or reading regurgitated crap.


----------



## crackaton (21 May 2006)

sarahmeehan3 said:
			
		

> We'll I cannot believe this debate on a stockmarket forum.
> 
> Let me clarify a few things, so that we are all clear.
> 
> ...





Well said sarah, and I believe your wishes will come true


----------



## Stan 101 (21 May 2006)

Little bit of English 101.

Aboriginee is a noun. EG: I am an aboriginee.
Aboriginal is an adjective, not a noun. It describes the noun. EG: I am an aboriginal person.


Rant over. 




Cheers,


----------



## rederob (21 May 2006)

Stan 101 said:
			
		

> Little bit of English 101.
> Aboriginee is a noun. EG: I am an aboriginee.
> Aboriginal is an adjective, not a noun. It describes the noun. EG: I am an aboriginal person.



Sanqar
Please do another English 101 and help me find out what an *aboriginee  * is. 
Could it be a person who was formerly an aboriginal?


----------



## mista200 (21 May 2006)

I know "white" Australians that live at or below the level of many aboriginals and yet they don't get the benefits that the aboriginals get....

If we want a fairer system that still helps the "aboriginals" why don't we just class people as people...not as aboriginal or white and then give out handouts according to need.

Yes im sure i can't imagine living in outback community ....at the end of the day they should move and get a job!


----------



## crackaton (21 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> I know "white" Australians that live at or below the level of many aboriginals and yet they don't get the benefits that the aboriginals get....
> 
> If we want a fairer system that still helps the "aboriginals" why don't we just class people as people...not as aboriginal or white and then give out handouts according to need.
> 
> Yes im sure i can't imagine living in outback community ....at the end of the day they should move and get a job!




I agree but the same can be said for immigrants coming to this country and getting paid to do so. And then there's the single mum thing whereby they get knocked up early and have a truck loads of kids to three or four different fathers.


----------



## rederob (21 May 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> If we want a fairer system that still helps the "aboriginals" why don't we just class people as people...not as aboriginal or white and then give out handouts according to need.
> Yes im sure i can't imagine living in outback community ....at the end of the day they should move and get a job!



Mista
Your blissful ignorance is astonishing.
We have a relatively fair system already that is needs based, but you wouldn't know because you choose to trot out nonsensical statements based on what you concoct, as distinct from what actually exists.
I can't imagine where you went to school, but if anything about aboriginal culture was taught, you were either missing in action, or not able to comprehend.  The relationship of aboriginal people to the land is their essence.  
Between you and crackaton, whose knowledge of migration matters matches yours on aboriginal culture, we have a melange of monstrous proportions: You should congratulate yourselves.


----------



## nizar (21 May 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> And then there's the single mum thing whereby they get knocked up early and have a truck loads of kids to three or four different fathers.




LOL whos fault is that to have truck loads of kids to several fathers??


----------



## TheAnalyst (22 May 2006)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/

This picture is front page of The australian...they are saying as well as this family that it is white fella's fault that they live like this and they need much more government funding to help with the problem that they can t get a rag out and clean up....i get sick of left wing journalists and these types tellin me its my problem that they dont clean their kitchen......poor dog....


----------



## visual (22 May 2006)

And at the end of the day,these are the images that makes all of us think ,let them rot.
But when you think logically,how much needs to go wrong for people to live like this,and what needs arent being met.As far as I know aboriginals did take great care of their enviroment before white man,so what changed now.

Racism doesnt cut it,discrimination might go a little way to explain how a person could fall so low that not even cleaning after oneself becomes worthwhile,but overall something else must have drastically gone wrong for people to live like this.

Obviously being given stuff without working isnt helping the situation,none of these kids look malnurished why are they making the choice to live in communities where these is no hope yet not live the traditional life either.


----------



## emma (22 May 2006)

I feel very lucky that I don't live in "HOPE"vale and have others commenting on a life they know nothing about.


----------



## macca (22 May 2006)

Well I do know one thing, when the house was built it did not look like that.

I wish the media would stop holding these people up to ridicule, if they wish to live in a place like that, then it is their right to do so.

I have seen plenty of places like that in the city, usually occupied by students. 

Just because WE choose not to live in those conditions, what right do we have to expect them to maintain the place the way that WE expect.

We are judging them by our standards, typically arrogant European tradition, "if you don't do it our way then you are wrong".


----------



## visual (22 May 2006)

Emma,what do you suggest,ignoring their cries,suffering ,ect .
Your way has already been tried and it didnt work.It`s time to look at this situation and fix it.If nothing else for the children.


----------



## TheAnalyst (22 May 2006)

emma said:
			
		

> I feel very lucky that I don't live in "HOPE"vale and have others commenting on a life they know nothing about.





Then why dont you go there and clean up the kitchen and clean that stove and get whats left of the cupboard doors from the kids billy carts and bon fires.

Maybe you can stay there and wait on the family hand and foot so we dont have to put up with ridiculous newspaper articles blaming "white fella's" for them not wanting to clean the kitchen and wanting some Federal Government grant for them to receive permanent full time cleaners in each home to clean up and cook for em....u must be kidding...have a look at that $1200 new stove and really do taxpayers have to buy a new one cos the family standing in that kitchen dont want to clean it..........u pay for it Emma.....that money could go to Private Kosvco's widow and children.


----------



## emma (22 May 2006)

It is interesting that my earlier post has elicited two contrary responses.  To clarify, I don't have any answers but I do have sympathy for people (of any colour) who are struggling - for whatever reason.


----------



## TheAnalyst (22 May 2006)

emma said:
			
		

> It is interesting that my earlier post has elicited two contrary responses.  To clarify, I don't have any answers but I do have sympathy for people (of any colour) who are struggling - for whatever reason.




Well no-one had pity for me as a kid cos  i was a white aussie boy and was i poor the refugees at primary school use to give me their worn out shoes...and i would happily wear em.......and when the social workers gave me socks they were ugly grey ones but i had to wear em and then my dad would pinch em and wear em from my wardrobe.....and i was lucky that the school dental van started because it wasnt until grade 5 that they the dental van gave me a toothbrush and i didnt even know i was meant to have one.....if i had been aboriginal i would have been better off.....lucky for the share market and pickin up a job in the armed forces.....


----------



## Julia (22 May 2006)

Personally I find the state of that filthy kitchen indefensible in any terms.
No one is so impaired emotionally that they can't wield a scrubbing brush.

At the same time, I have a vivid memory of being in a house much worse than that.  The toilet had been blocked for weeks but the family just kept using it.  Then they took the toilet seat and placed it in the living room and designated that the toilet!  Yes, really.  There were soiled nappies throughout the house and the kitchen was much worse than the one in the photograph.  The kids were filthy and the single mother was pregnant for the fifth time.  None of the fathers were known.

That family was white.

Julia


----------



## TheAnalyst (22 May 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Personally I find the state of that filthy kitchen indefensible in any terms.
> No one is so impaired emotionally that they can't wield a scrubbing brush.
> 
> At the same time, I have a vivid memory of being in a house much worse than that.  The toilet had been blocked for weeks but the family just kept using it.  Then they took the toilet seat and placed it in the living room and designated that the toilet!  Yes, really.  There were soiled nappies throughout the house and the kitchen was much worse than the one in the photograph.  The kids were filthy and the single mother was pregnant for the fifth time.  None of the fathers were known.
> ...




This is the point Julia that I am making...it isnt about the race or color.....why should the tax payer be told that this mess in the kitchen is the peoples of Australia's responsibility....it does not matter who you are if its your kitchen then its your responsibility...unless of course you are an elderly person or suffer a real disability that hinders you from this type of cleaning...then yes once agian it does not matter your race then Australians socially thru tax have a responsibility to help these types of elderly and disabled people and i have no problem with my tax being distributed for this need.

But for a physical capable family to stand there in a kitchen and say look at this place,  clean it and fix it...is bull......what it shows to me and the community is that some group or someone has instilled in the people in this kitchen that even to the point of cleaning the kitchen is not their responsibilty or their fault...it is the white mans governments fault and they are obligated to clean for you and when you break it or dont want it then you demand that it be done for you and this is your right.


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## Julia (22 May 2006)

Analyst:
Most Australians would completely agree with you.

Julia


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (22 May 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Personally I find the state of that filthy kitchen indefensible in any terms.
> No one is so impaired emotionally that they can't wield a scrubbing brush.
> 
> At the same time, I have a vivid memory of being in a house much worse than that.  The toilet had been blocked for weeks but the family just kept using it.  Then they took the toilet seat and placed it in the living room and designated that the toilet!  Yes, really.  There were soiled nappies throughout the house and the kitchen was much worse than the one in the photograph.  The kids were filthy and the single mother was pregnant for the fifth time.  None of the fathers were known.
> ...




Yes Julia I have seen white peoples houses, many in real estate, which would make you sick on the spot. 

Maybe the aboriginals in the photo have been too focussed on the bull market of late and have been trading too hard


----------



## TheAnalyst (23 May 2006)

By Lindsay Murdoch, Wadeye
May 23, 2006
Page 1 of 3 | Single page 
GANG violence has turned the remote indigenous community of Wadeye into a war zone.

People are camping in tents like refugees in their own country, too afraid to return to their homes as two rival gangs run riot through the community, 450 kilometres south-west of Darwin. Scores of others have fled into the bush. Even the gang leaders are frightened.

"Somebody's going to die," said Gregory Narndu, 32, a leader of the Evil Warriors gang. "What can we do? That other mob attacks us with rocks, boulders, spears and anything else they can get hold of," he said.

Almost every day and night the Evil Warriors and their enemy the Judas Priest boys fight a turf war that is threatening the future of the largest Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory.

The situation is so grave, the community's chief executive Terry Bullemor said yesterday, that the local council is looking to evacuate up to 300 threatened people to Darwin, where they could receive basic services.

But the only road to the community remains blocked by wet season floodwaters. Community elders interviewed by The Age yesterday said they would welcome the army to help keep the peace.

Wadeye, a former Catholic mission called Port Keats, looks like a Third World refugee camp. Women and children are often too frightened to walk the streets of the town that nestles into coastal mangroves.

An average of 20 people are living in each sweltering, graffiti-covered house.

Almost half the population of 2500 is under 15. Most teenagers cannot speak English, indicating they have had no formal education. Life expectancy is 20 years less than that of non-indigenous Australians. And an acute housing shortage will worsen over the next two decades as the population doubles.

"Our cry is for help," says Theodora Narndu, Gregory's 54-year-old mother.

Mrs Narndu is one of Wadeye's most respected elders. "Seeing what's happening, my tears are never dry," she says. "I hear the screams at night … terrified women and children … It has never being like this before. Our kids are not safe."

Wadeye has only five full-time police officers.

"When there's trouble around here and I call the police to come and protect my mob they never come," Mrs Narndu says. "Where are the resources that the politicians kept promising us?"

Pleas to boost police numbers to levels that are maintained in the Northern Territory's non-indigenous communities have gone unanswered despite the fact that Wadeye has had law and order problems for years.

The community's only doctor, Patrick Rebgetz, has been told by the Northern Territory Health Department not to speak about the six-year-old boy he recently treated who had been raped.

But Dr Rebgetz refuses to remain silent and insists he can talk as a member of the Australian Medical Association, which has warned that all of the community's 1300 children are at risk.

"Australia should be ashamed at what's happening in remote indigenous communities," Dr Rebgetz told The Age.

"We as Australians need to stand up with these people to reclaim their town from the groups that are trying to destroy it," he said.

Mandy Leggett, a council worker, drives past one of many houses that have been trashed in the rioting that has caused more than $450,000 damage to houses and other property in the past three months.

"Two young kids hid in the roof as they did that one," she says. "Imagine how terrified they were."

Three years ago Wadeye was chosen as a trial site for what politicians called a "bold experiment" to end disadvantage in remote indigenous communities.

They called it the Indigenous Communities Co-ordination Pilots program under the Council of Australian Governments umbrella.

Ministers and other MPs, even Prime Minister John Howard, along with bureaucrats arrived in droves.

But yesterday, as the gangs massed for their daily conflict, the trial was in tatters.

"It's time to walk away," Mrs Narndu said. "What did it get us? Nothing."

Mr Bullemor said the community was angry and frustrated that the trial program never improved the delivery of basic services as the politicians and bureaucrats promised it would.

He said elders were "pretty disheartened" when NT Chief Minister Clare Martin refused last week to attend a national summit with federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough, insisting that problems in indigenous communities should be handled through the Council of Australian Governments.

"When the people here saw that they asked where has Clare been for the past three years," Mr Bullemor said.

He said the gang violence was a symptom of much deeper issues that elders had been trying to get governments to address for many years.

"The gangs to some extent are militia for various interest groups," he said.

Mr Bullemor said unresolved issues, such as land tenure, were fuelling the violence.

"We have gangs trying to solve problems that we should be solving ourselves if governments were working better together," he said.

"One of the main problems is that there has been no serious development strategies for emerging territory towns."

Mr Bullemor said people in the community were confused by the territory's legal system.

"There's no real enforcement of the Child Welfare Act, for example," he said.

"We have the Government saying there are laws in place but the people here see that they are not enforced."

Mr Bullemor said sending soldiers to Wadeye could act as a confidence-building circuit-breaker.

"The whole underlying issues would remain but the arrival of soldiers would help us cap the situation for the moment at least," he said.

"We need some breathing space so that we have time to consider how to resolve some of issues."

Wadeye's problems are creating tension in Ms Martin's Labor Government as serious questions are being asked about the territory's discretionary spending of Commonwealth grants earmarked for remote communities.

An internal Labor paper suggests that Commonwealth money that is supposed to be spent in remote communities is being redirected to projects that mostly benefit non-indigenous people, such as a $160 million wharf convention complex in Darwin.

Wadeye receives 50 cents in the dollar for the education of a local child compared with the full dollar distributed to children on average across the territory, a recent report found.

Tobias Nganbe, co-principal of Wadeye's school, said only about 100 of the community's 880 children of school age were turning up for classes.

"We need outside help … not Band-Aid solutions but real help," he said.

"There is sheer frustration here … everybody's scared."


----------



## TheAnalyst (23 May 2006)

Hate stalks a community where gangs rule roost
Members of Wadeye's Evil Warriors gang prepare for another night of fighting with their rivals, the Judas Priest boys. "Somebody's going to die," said Gregory Narndu, 32, one of the gang's leaders.
Photo: Terry Trewin
By Lindsay Murdoch, Wadeye
May 23, 2006

GANG violence has turned the remote indigenous community of Wadeye into a war zone.

People are camping in tents like refugees in their own country, too afraid to return to their homes as two rival gangs run riot through the community, 450 kilometres south-west of Darwin. Scores of others have fled into the bush. Even the gang leaders are frightened.

"Somebody's going to die," said Gregory Narndu, 32, a leader of the Evil Warriors gang. "What can we do? That other mob attacks us with rocks, boulders, spears and anything else they can get hold of," he said.

Almost every day and night the Evil Warriors and their enemy the Judas Priest boys fight a turf war that is threatening the future of the largest Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory.

The situation is so grave, the community's chief executive Terry Bullemor said yesterday, that the local council is looking to evacuate up to 300 threatened people to Darwin, where they could receive basic services.

But the only road to the community remains blocked by wet season floodwaters. Community elders interviewed by The Age yesterday said they would welcome the army to help keep the peace.

Wadeye, a former Catholic mission called Port Keats, looks like a Third World refugee camp. Women and children are often too frightened to walk the streets of the town that nestles into coastal mangroves.

An average of 20 people are living in each sweltering, graffiti-covered house.

Almost half the population of 2500 is under 15. Most teenagers cannot speak English, indicating they have had no formal education. Life expectancy is 20 years less than that of non-indigenous Australians. And an acute housing shortage will worsen over the next two decades as the population doubles.

"Our cry is for help," says Theodora Narndu, Gregory's 54-year-old mother.

Mrs Narndu is one of Wadeye's most respected elders. "Seeing what's happening, my tears are never dry," she says. "I hear the screams at night … terrified women and children … It has never being like this before. Our kids are not safe."

Wadeye has only five full-time police officers.

"When there's trouble around here and I call the police to come and protect my mob they never come," Mrs Narndu says. "Where are the resources that the politicians kept promising us?"

Pleas to boost police numbers to levels that are maintained in the Northern Territory's non-indigenous communities have gone unanswered despite the fact that Wadeye has had law and order problems for years.

The community's only doctor, Patrick Rebgetz, has been told by the Northern Territory Health Department not to speak about the six-year-old boy he recently treated who had been raped.

But Dr Rebgetz refuses to remain silent and insists he can talk as a member of the Australian Medical Association, which has warned that all of the community's 1300 children are at risk.

"Australia should be ashamed at what's happening in remote indigenous communities," Dr Rebgetz told The Age.

"We as Australians need to stand up with these people to reclaim their town from the groups that are trying to destroy it," he said.

Mandy Leggett, a council worker, drives past one of many houses that have been trashed in the rioting that has caused more than $450,000 damage to houses and other property in the past three months.

"Two young kids hid in the roof as they did that one," she says. "Imagine how terrified they were."

Three years ago Wadeye was chosen as a trial site for what politicians called a "bold experiment" to end disadvantage in remote indigenous communities.

They called it the Indigenous Communities Co-ordination Pilots program under the Council of Australian Governments umbrella.

Ministers and other MPs, even Prime Minister John Howard, along with bureaucrats arrived in droves.

But yesterday, as the gangs massed for their daily conflict, the trial was in tatters.

"It's time to walk away," Mrs Narndu said. "What did it get us? Nothing."

Mr Bullemor said the community was angry and frustrated that the trial program never improved the delivery of basic services as the politicians and bureaucrats promised it would.

He said elders were "pretty disheartened" when NT Chief Minister Clare Martin refused last week to attend a national summit with federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough, insisting that problems in indigenous communities should be handled through the Council of Australian Governments.


Notice that he the doctor says Australians should be ashamed of em selves...

well i am not....they are responsible for em selves....for the past 30 something yrs politicians have divided this country and funded the black australia policy and the white australia policy...we are not one nation anymore...in victoria blacks and half casts have their own court with softer punishments whilst whites get harsher punishments....for the same crimes

really i dont care what they do as far as they are concerned i took their land and i must keep giving them money.......they fly their own flag at our countries sports events...they take from me us one hand and spit at us with the other....

Our governments fund their every legal complaint in courts but wont provide a white with the same benefit....so can never issue as many legal challenges....


----------



## visual (23 May 2006)

And in different ways thats what we are all saying,if you somehow allow people to neglect their personal responsability ,these are the results.
Sending more police would only result in more arrests ,hence more deaths in custody,therefore giving the bleeding hearts more reason to bleet about the australian government  and its racist ways.

Unfortunately political considerations as we know comes before doing the right thing,so this situation persists.

I`m all for aboriginals retaining their own culture but at the end of the day these people are behaving no better than animals staking their own patch.So as I said earlier if culture have to be modified or deliberately educated out of existence so be it.


----------



## TheAnalyst (23 May 2006)

To be honest the melbourne gardens fire that was started by a bunch of white men with more white anglo blood than Aboriginal did absolutely nothing for them...actually did you know why they went on watch at different times in the end to keep the fire going and alll of them did not stay there and camp like at the start...and guess what the media did not print it....it was because centrelink was going to cut benefits because they were not actively seeking work.....so to appease centerlink and not have the benefits cut as this is really what came first they abonded the fire and had others appointed by roster so the centerlink benefits were maintained.......tell left wing journalists to print that....lolol....like i said these white fellas posing as Aboriginal are full of it


----------



## mista200 (23 May 2006)

Lets just all agree that the current way we treat aboriginies (handouts galore, different and better treatment thatn non aboriginals) isnt working!!!!!

Maybe if we treated them as "australians" and not aboriginals they we would be better off!

 Maybe they wouldnt be the butt of so called racism if they were treated the same as us!


----------



## TheAnalyst (23 May 2006)

This is the point we dont treat them like this some one else does it and says its on our behalf......i have and never will have a say in it.....i dont really care what they get...i just dont like it when they get given what they want and they are not responsible thay blame me......i just want em to f**k off for once in my life and stop blaming me. I dont want to open up a newspaper and have to read that its my fault and have them there telling me and others because we are white and dont have at least 1/8 aboriginal blood to come and clean their kitchens and toilet and build em a new house cos they didnt clean it...and if i comment they tell me i am a racist....its been going on since i could read.....look buy them black stoves and white goods have em made black then the kitchen wont look so dirty...just like dont have white carpet cos the dirt shows up have a darker color.....


----------



## Bobby (23 May 2006)

Australian aboriginals are lucky the English settled here, look what happened to the aboriginals of Patagonia !.

As for Wadeye another Palm Island ?

Bob.


----------



## macca (23 May 2006)

Speaking of Palm Island, I remember when the media were persecuting Pauline Hanson and they took her to Palm Island.

The tribal leader said look at the conditions we live in and Pauline said 

" well, why don't you get off your butt and clean it up" the guy was speechless, I cheered lol..........................

I grew up with Aboriginal kids about 3/4 caste, there were about 12 kids my age, 6 of who were Aboriginals, good mates, all their fathers worked,  they went to school, always neat and tidy,as were their houses, even had to take our shoes off to go inside, they all now have jobs houses etc still nice people, some my mates for 40 years. 

That is the way to reconciliation, encourage them to be part of TODAYS society.


----------



## Julia (23 May 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> And in different ways thats what we are all saying,if you somehow allow people to neglect their personal responsability ,these are the results.
> Sending more police would only result in more arrests ,hence more deaths in custody,therefore giving the bleeding hearts more reason to bleet about the australian government  and its racist ways.
> 
> Unfortunately political considerations as we know comes before doing the right thing,so this situation persists.
> ...




Good post, Visual.  Except I would add re your comments "these people are behaving no better than animals....." that animals usually do not rape their babies.

Julia


----------



## visual (23 May 2006)

I was thinking more along the line of animals who kill the offsprings of competing animals,
eg,the black miner bird denesting the chicks of the birds who actually build the nest.And then using it as their own.
But you are right those kids probably will grow up wishing death had claimed them first.Sad...


----------



## Bobby (23 May 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Good post, Visual.  Except I would add re your comments "these people are behaving no better than animals....." that animals usually do not rape their babies.
> 
> Julia




Yes Julia thats correct .
Looks like these settlements are a nightmare of abuse.
Plus a huge waste of money, ongoing for ever.

Bob.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (23 May 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Good post, Visual.  Except I would add re your comments "these people are behaving no better than animals....." that animals usually do not rape their babies.
> 
> Julia




Yes, Ive seen pigs rape each other at the abbatoirs.


----------



## visual (23 May 2006)

Snake,on a lighter note,do you speak pig,how do you know there was no consent,maybe they were enjoying their last hours in a manner fit for a pig!
: 
sorry everybody I thought that was funny,but if no one else agrees I understand.


----------



## Bobby (24 May 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Snake,on a lighter note,do you speak pig,how do you know there was no consent,maybe they were enjoying their last hours in a manner fit for a pig!
> :
> sorry everybody I thought that was funny,but if no one else agrees I understand.




Wow Visual thats out of character for you !
Not sure if its funny but like your guts for stating it !

Take care
Bob.


----------



## Julia (24 May 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Snake,on a lighter note,do you speak pig,how do you know there was no consent,maybe they were enjoying their last hours in a manner fit for a pig!
> :
> sorry everybody I thought that was funny,but if no one else agrees I understand.




Visual:

You brought a smile to my face.  A brief joke doesn't imply a superficial treatment of this immensely  concerning and divisive subject.

Julia


----------



## robert toms (24 May 2006)

Macca said that Pauline Hanson told some people to get off their butts...surely the Australian terminology is to "get off your ****" or in more polite company to "get off your bums".
If reported correctly,was she indulging in un-Australian behaviour?


----------



## websman (24 May 2006)

Dudes, you think you have problems, you should come to the U.S.  The Mexicans are taking over.  It makes me wonder if anyone is left south of our border.


----------



## Bobby (24 May 2006)

websman said:
			
		

> Dudes, you think you have problems, you should come to the U.S.  The Mexicans are taking over.  It makes me wonder if anyone is left south of our border.




Hullo Websman,

Whats the population of Mexico at the moment ?
Then I'll ask that again next month .

Bob.


----------



## Happy (24 May 2006)

Quote from ABC:

"
Brough welcomes sentencing 'mistake' admission
Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough has congratulated the Northern Territory chief justice, who admitted he made a mistake in sentencing an Aboriginal man for carnal knowledge. 

Justice Brian Martin is reported as saying he placed too much emphasis on Aboriginal customary law when he sentenced the man to one month in jail for having sex with a 14-year-old girl. 

Mr Brough wants judges banned from taking cultural factors into account during sentencing for serious sexual and violent crimes and has today called for violent men to be removed from Aboriginal communities. 

He says he hopes Justice Martin's comments will be taken into account by others in the legal profession. 

"We shouldn't step away from the fact that this was a heinous crime," he said.

"This was anally raping a girl for two days and to have a one month's sentence because we take into account cultural sensitivities or cultural practices, I really applaud him for acknowledging his mistake and I hope that some of the other justices understand that and take it into account."

Meanwhile, Mr Brough has raised the prospect of removing violent men from Aboriginal communities. 

He has called a national summit in a bid to crack down on violence and address other problems in Indigenous communities. 

Mr Brough says perpetrators of violent crime are often sent back to their communities while victims are forced to leave.

He says the current system means victims are reluctant to testify in court. 

"We must look seriously at excluding people from communities that are before the courts for such heinous crimes as child rape, to protect the children, to protect the community and give them some confidence that the criminal justice system will work for them, than against them," he said. 
"



This is an indication of possible step toward 1 law in Australia.

Probably another big issue are gangs in Australia, but some official agencies in Australia are yet to acknowledge they exist, so fingers crossed.


----------



## visual (24 May 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Quote from ABC:
> 
> "
> "We must look seriously at excluding people from communities that are before the courts for such heinous crimes as child rape, to protect the children, to protect the community and give them some confidence that the criminal justice system will work for them, than against them," he said.
> ...






Happy,and even when it looks like a positive step,I`m thinking that all this will mean is another disaster in the making,sure remove them but then where to.And will they just be shifting morons where now perhaps there are none or a few.Personally I would like these people trained and educated,cut off the welfare mentality if need be so that they have no choice but to join civilized society.(no I dont mean ,white society,I mean civilised society in general)


----------



## TheAnalyst (24 May 2006)

One law for needs to be taken up in Victoria......there is no longer just one court....the Bracks government did not like the whites here with even 1/8 of aboriginal blood being sentenced the same as other citezens...so presto...there is now a seperate court system for those with 1/8 aboriginal blood and above....much softer and lenient as well.....om top of this the power was given to aboriginal land inspectors and it was run by aboriginals or should we say whites with tainted aboriginal blood and they could smake a ban on you at any time they liked so you could not do any building works until you proved it the land had no aboriginal land association.

Say something and you are a racist.......


----------



## anon (24 May 2006)

Towards the beginning of this discussion a statement was made that if John Howard stays in power for another ten years the Aboriginal Problem would be solved because there would be no Aboriginees left. Still trying to figure that one out, but that prediction is for the future. In the present we have seen Howard Government bribing Aboriginal communities - in one case by offering to build a swimming pool if they send their children to school, and in another case to install a petrol bowser for their distant community if they guaranteed to have their children's faces washed, which would reduce the incidence of trachoma. I don't see anything really threatening in what he is doing though but he did get a lot of criticism from both indigenous and white communities.

The situation unfolding right now ain't pretty, with the finger pointing at the Aboriginal culture and to Aborigines themselves. Why has it taken so long to come out?  Suppressing the facts by using political correctness approach?  Probably.  Problem too hard?  Obviously. Way too hard.  But let's have a look at what has happened in the recent history that might have some bearing on the current situation.

Pre Whitlam it was illegal to sell alcohol to Aborigines, so there wasn't the alcohol problem that exists today. He passed a law which made alcohol easily available to Aboriginees. 

Pre Whitlam Aborigines were paid only low wages for work which was available to them and many were employed. Whitlam passed laws which made it mandatory for the Aboriginal workers to be paid same level of wages as was paid to white workers. As their work abilities didn't come up to the standard of white workers Aboriginees soon became unemployed. But they now had easy access to alcohol and to welfare.

What Whitlam had done would very likely have ultimately been forced on us by the U.N. Human Rights Commission - as a matter of principle but not neccessarily because it would have been best for those people.


Below is an interesting article by historian/philosopher Keith Windshuttle titled "Manhood whitewashed", which 
was published in The Australian on May 23, 2006 -

*******

Welfare has deprived indigenous men of their masculinity and the only solution is to close remote settlements 
with chronic unemployment and no economic prospects.

Traditional Aboriginal society was always harsh on women. From the First Fleet onwards, white settlers saw Aboriginal men routinely heaping blows on their women, while customary law permitted old men to marry girls at puberty.

Nonetheless, there are no reports of traditional culture sanctioning the horrific behaviour described last week 
by Alice Springs Crown prosecutor Nanette Rogers. Only recently has anyone heard of such deplorable sexual acts against little children. Their frequency today suggests something else has gone deeply awry.

The root cause is that white Australia has deprived Aboriginal men in remote communities of their manhood. 
The instrument we used was social welfare: giving handouts that did not require them to work. The social 
policy of the past 30 years is the principal culprit.

The human male is a creature biologically programmed, communally socialised and psychologically motivated 
to be a provider for women and children. In outback Aboriginal communities, however, that role has been 
usurped by the state.

The social consequences of this should have been entirely predictable. No matter what their race or where they live, men who do not work have no social status, no sense of self-worth and little meaning in their lives. Others think badly of them and they think badly of themselves.

Sociological studies have long shown that in all cultures many men respond to unemployment with alcoholism and domestic violence, one problem feeding the other.

The loss of manhood has direct consequences for Aboriginal boys. They have no incentive to go to school. When they reach adolescence, their most attractive and adventurous options are the subcultures of crime and substance abuse. As Robertson showed, some consume vast quantities of pornography.

Few people today are aware of how recent a phenomenon the remote communities are. Most are products of the 1980s, when the Hawke government increased spending on fringe settlements and encouraged the out-station or homeland movement, in which many Aboriginal communities withdrew from larger population centres into isolated areas, ostensibly to revive Aboriginal culture and practise self-determination.

The brainchild of the policy was Labor's long-term adviser H.C. "Nugget" Coombs, whose manifesto was the book Aboriginal Autonomy. He wanted Aborigines to have a separate economy based not on capitalist notions of industry, agriculture and mineral development, which he regarded as exploitive and environmentally degrading, but on "sustainable development, stable populations, limited-growth economies and an emphasis on small scale and self-reliance".

Today, his legacy is more than 1200 remote Aboriginal communities spread across northern Australia. But without capitalist institutions such as consumer markets and private property, both of which the homeland movement actively discouraged, sustainable development was always a pipe dream.

The result is that, although more than half the land in the Northern Territory belongs to Aboriginal communities, their economic participation is abysmal.

Little would be gained by simply shifting the culture of violence from one location to another. The Aboriginal ghettos of Redfern in Sydney and the Gordon Estate in Dubbo, NSW, are as dysfunctional as any in central Australia. Nonetheless, that Sydney and Brisbane house Aboriginal populations of 35,000 and 28,000 respectively, most of whom enjoy suburban lives indistinguishable from other Australians, shows none of this is insurmountable.

If he seriously threatens the present regime, Brough will generate resistance from those academics, Aboriginal activists and bureaucrats who created it. They will mount a propaganda campaign to argue they were right all along.
Some will even revive the furphy that assimilation equals genocide. But there are enough Aborigines who have made the complete transition to modern, urban life while retaining a pride in their identity and ancestry to give the lie to that charge.

Last week's revelations confirm a growing public awareness of the terrible truth among us. Most people will see the opponents of change as defending the indefensible.

********


----------



## TheAnalyst (25 May 2006)

Thanks for the history of the problem Anon...I was always at the thought that only a labor government could be the real orchestrator of such a scheme.......


----------



## TheAnalyst (25 May 2006)

Well...Anon speak of the devil it has already started......lol...that it is racist to stop Aboriginals from sexually abusing and raping but not whites......what a disgraceful chain of thought...


http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...labelled-racist/2006/05/24/1148150327086.html


Ban on customary law labelled racist
Email Print Normal font Large font By Nassim Khadem, Canberra
May 25, 2006
Page 1 of 2 | Single page 
Advertisement
AdvertisementCHANGING the law to ban judges from taking Aboriginal customary law into account is racist and discriminatory, legal experts say. But acting Prime Minister Peter Costello said the Government would not be deterred by political correctness.

"Let there be no mistake about this: this Government believes very strongly in protecting innocent children and women in Aboriginal communities and we will not let political correctness get in the way of that," he said.

Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough has proposed changing the law so that customary law is not considered by judges during sentencing for crimes including sexual assault.

Law Council Of Australia president John North said that if the Government tried to ban customary law from being applied, it would discriminate against Aborigines and contravene federal racial discrimination laws. "What the Government is saying is impractical and would automatically result in more harsh sentencing being imposed on a particular group," he said.

Last year a 55-year-old Aboriginal elder was jailed for one month for unlawful sexual intercourse with a 14-year-old girl. NT Chief Justice Brian Martin was embroiled in controversy over the case, in which he took customary law into account. The girl was the man's promised wife under traditional law. The NT Court of Appeal increased the sentence to three years and 11 months (18-months non-parole) on appeal.

Yesterday, Justice Martin conceded he made a mistake in that case, but said that should not be used to legislate against customary law.

"You don't use one mistake of a sentencing judge as a basis for saying you never take customary law into account," he said.

"Courts across Australia have always taken into account a person's background, if their background helps in understanding their moral culpability or circumstances generally.

"If we take that away in respect of Aboriginal people, they will be treated differently to everybody else."

NT Bar Association president Jon Tippett, QC, said Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough was ignorant about customary law and was using the issue for his own political advantage. Mr Tippett said customary law had never been accepted as a defence against crimes of rape, and it would be "racist and discriminatory" to ban it. "And watch out every race and ethnicity in this country, because they may end up legislating against you too," he said.

Larissa Behrendt, professor of law and indigenous studies at the University of Technology, Sydney, cautioned against restricting judicial rights.

National Indigenous Council chairwoman Sue Gordon also wants careful consideration given to how customary laws are applied under state and federal legislation. "This has not been clear in the debate so far," she told The Age. "Courts take into account a number of factors when considering sentencing. However, all perpetrators should be dealt with by law like every Australian."

NT Opposition Leader Jodeen Carney has written to Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock for advice on whether changing the law will breach The Racial Discrimination Act.

Mr Brough will raise the issue at a summit involving state and territory leaders. He is also expected to raise it with NT Chief Minister Clare Martin in Canberra today.

HOW IT WORKS
WHILE there is no state or territory law that specifies customary law must be taken into account in sentencing, judges are allowed to consider whether a person's background or beliefs may have influenced their behaviour. Based on that some defence lawyers have argued their clients' actions were justified under customary law. 
In 2003, the NT Government removed promised marriage in traditional Aboriginal law as a defence against unlawful sex offences following the case of NT elder Jackie Pascoe Jamilmira, who was sentenced to one day in jail for having sex with his 15-year-old promised bride. The sentence was increased to one month on appeal.


----------



## TheAnalyst (25 May 2006)

Here is another article and once again the Labor Party is blaming the NT government not aboriginals for not cleaning their homes.......Labor Party policy is very predictable....




http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...diverted-report/2006/05/24/1148150330870.html

Blacks lose out as cash diverted: report


By Lindsay Murdoch in Darwin
May 25, 2006
AdvertisementAdvertisement

SUCCESSIVE Northern Territory governments have been redirecting federal money supposed to be spent on remote indigenous communities to projects that benefit other voters, an internal Labor Party report warns.

The report says discretionary decisions by successive governments have "warped" spending priorities and created "deep structural inequities".

It says the territory Government is underspending by tens of millions of dollars a year on indigenous communities that resemble Third World refugee camps. The Chief Minister, Clare Martin, who is also Minister for Indigenous Affairs, is facing increasing pressure over her Government's failure to deliver basic services to remote areas such as Wadeye, where rival gangs have taken control of the streets and hundreds of threatened people want to be evacuated to Darwin.

Wadeye, 450 kilometres south-west of Darwin, has only five full-time police officers, while non-indigenous towns with almost the same population have more than 20. The report, written by a Darwin lawyer, Sean Bowden, warns that social and economic spending have become so warped that "it may be impossible for any NT Government to address them alone".

Mr Bowden, a member of the territory Labor Party, called for a regional development fund to be set up to tackle infrastructure deficits and promote growth.

In the report, a copy of which the Herald has obtained, he said the Government should put $400 million into the fund, pointing out that it did not hesitate to allocate $200 million for a convention centre and wave pool being built in Darwin.

In a paper presented at a meeting of Labor's regional branches, Mr Bowden said the territory faced an "enormous backlog of under-funding and neglect" that could not be solved by an incremental approach.

"Transferring public servants and their offices out of Darwin and into the communities they serve would be a start," he said.

Mr Bowden said residents of Darwin had access to first-class infrastructure and services, with modern schools, hospitals, libraries, parks, pools and community centres while indigenous people in remote areas faced low life expectancies.

"The situation that has developed reveals a great distinction between rich and poor, the haves and have-nots … the gap widens each year." Mr Bowden quoted a study by the Commonwealth Grants Commission showing the territory received almost 5 ½ times the per capita funding to Victoria or NSW, which was supposed to reflect the greater cost of delivering services to people in remote areas.

Federal grants account for about 80 per cent of the territory budget.

Mr Bowden said in the report that there was a "growing body of opinion and evidence" the territory Government was redirecting money from where it was meant to go, like the regions, to where its own spending priorities lay, like Darwin's northern suburbs. "When the residents of the northern suburbs scream, the NT Government acts - to not do so would be to risk handing government to the Opposition."

■ The Northern Territory Government has appointed a former public servant, David Coles, to co-ordinate the delivery of services to Wadeye.

Ms Martin said she would ask the federal Indigenous Affairs Minister, Mal Brough, during a meeting in Canberra today to give Mr Coles, who has experience in indigenous areas, the power to "cut through red tape" and improve services to Wadeye.


----------



## macca (25 May 2006)

I thought it was a Labour Govt in the NT, I know it was National/Lib for while but I thought they had a Labour Govt the last 2 terms.

Seems odd that a Labour guy would criticise his own party ?

Could someone from NT comment please.


----------



## robert toms (25 May 2006)

All of this thrashing about on political and racial lines...
Unless you can give people hope and meaning in their lives there will always be problems....white,black or purple
Anybody want to be constructive ?


----------



## Happy (25 May 2006)

‘Unless you can give people hope and meaning in their lives there will always be problems’

This comment is out of place in this great place - Australia, of course unless one has to be given happiness and everything else on silver plater.


----------



## TheAnalyst (25 May 2006)

Whats really horrible is my sons first experience with the aboriginal people.....it was at our local heated swimming pool and there was a convention centre next to the pool that was having a christian born again rally and some bus loads came from interstate to Melbourne and the group of aboriginals visited the pool from the convention center and about 6 or 7 times the pool had to be cleared of people, not only one of the swimming pools but also the hydro pool and the the spa pool...because for some reason they did not wish to use the toilet so they would just cr*p in the pool and the kids white kids, indian kids and sri lankans had to come out and they (abbo's)visitors had to be warned to swim with bathers on as even up to the age of i think 12 the girls were not wearing any thing....they were doing bombs in the elderly hydro pool and spa pool and would not obey the instructions and would tell the life guards "this my land" and when i asked my son who was only 5 at the time who do u think were doing the turds in the pool he just took one guess....what a terrible first off experience for him..

The next one was our trip from to Ayers Rock and Darwin where he got his second experience of them stripping broken down cars from the side of the road and numerous times of them running at you in the middle of the high way from Port Agusta to central Australia and the only way you could stop them was to speed up and just keep going...he also asked about why they have paddlocks on the fuel bowsers.....and saying dad why is it every time we stop at a service station if there is an aboriginal there they ask for ciggerates and money??? My response was just blame the labor party son as they encourage it....


----------



## TheAnalyst (25 May 2006)

Looks like the government is gonna give em some more firewood and some more white goods to wreck......in a few years we will see the houses or whats left of em on the front page of the Australian newspaper tellin us to come clean up and foot the bill again.......wat another joke


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,19248998%5E662,00.html

Indigenous issue incites bitter clash
Michael Harvey and Ben Packham
25may06

LABOR MPs were accused of blaming Aboriginal violence on poor housing yesterday as efforts to tackle indigenous lawlessness descended into ugly point-scoring.






Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough drew attention to overcrowding in the strife-torn Northern Territory community of Wadeye, where people live up to 25 a house. 
"This Government does not for one minute suggest that housing is adequate -- we say that it is not an excuse to rape a child," Mr Brough told Parliament during a fiery exchange with Labor MPs. 

The comment enraged the Opposition, who believed the minister was accusing them 

of condoning violence and child abuse. 

ALP frontbencher and chief parliamentary tactician Julia Gillard described the onslaught as a "disgrace". 

"No member of the Opposition has ever or would ever say something like that," she said. 

When the minister refused to back down, Ms Gillard later questioned his manhood. "The minister wasn't man enough to withdraw these inflammatory remarks and his gestures at the Opposition," she said. 

The clash overshadowed fresh attempts by the Northern Territory Government to restore order to Wadeye, where gang violence has left hundreds of people homeless. 

NT Chief Minister Clare Martin announced an increase in Wadeye's police numbers from six to eight, with a promise of more if necessary. 

Ms Martin also appointed a recently retired public servant to co-ordinate reconstruction efforts in Wadeye -- a move mirroring ex-Defence chief Peter Cosgrove's rescue mission in Innisfail after Cyclone Larry.


----------



## robert toms (26 May 2006)

Happy ...you seem so have given these matters a lot of thought....can you tell me why depression is prevalent in Australian society ?


----------



## Happy (26 May 2006)

Robert,
Not sure if this is hook to get me hanged, but I take your question as genuine.

With motto: ‘you can be what you want to be’ 
(Which makes me laugh and I give example of person 60 cm tall at the age of 20 trying to play in NBA = not gonna happen if you ask me), but there is some merit in quote.

But question was why, well my probably simplistic answer is:
Lack of discipline
No need to do anything, we have 3 or now 4 generations of unemployable people who manage to get by with Government assistance.
Massive experimentation and abuse of substances.

(Alcohol alone is depressant so is marichuana, not sure about petrol, paint, ICE, LSD, cocaine, heroine and long list of substances that I don’t know or don’t remember.)

Why, people use it? Because they can.
Boredom, lack of interest in life, no fear of consequences.

Lets remember that people can find meaningful activities (if they choose and want) even facing death in 1 by 1 metre cage, as we learned during recent famous interview.

If your question was asked to ridicule me, well, back to you.


----------



## robert toms (26 May 2006)

No Happy it was not to ridicule you but ...by the same token surely depression is also redundant in the land of opportunity (Australia).You harshly judge others,by your or our standards,when we have no little idea what it is like to walk in another man's shoes.
On a lighter note for Analyst...are you sure that it was not one of your own children that launched the blind mullet...


----------



## Bobby (28 May 2006)

robert toms said:
			
		

> No Happy it was not to ridicule you but ...by the same token surely depression is also redundant in the land of opportunity (Australia).You harshly judge others,by your or our standards,when we have no little idea what it is like to walk in another man's shoes.
> On a lighter note for Analyst...are you sure that it was not one of your own children that launched the blind mullet...




  Robert Toms can you improve your phraseology when you post in future  : 

Bob.


----------



## FXST01 (28 May 2006)

I was told once (years ago) that the cut off was 1/16 to be considered aboriginal by the government.


----------



## Bobby (28 May 2006)

FXST01 said:
			
		

> I was told once (years ago) that the cut off was 1/16 to be considered aboriginal by the government.



 Why not say, I think I am.
Bet you can get away with it !  

Bob.


----------



## emma (29 May 2006)

A different story:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/sag...ick-white-award/2006/05/28/1148754870316.html


----------



## Julia (29 May 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Robert Toms can you improve your phraseology when you post in future  :
> 
> Bob.




Bobby;

Isn't that a bit tough?  I've seen worse phrasing than that used by Robert Toms.  What he said was understandable.  At least there were no spelling mistakes.

Cheers
Julia


----------



## visual (29 May 2006)

As an Aboriginal writer and director I am beyond the politics of flag raising," Enoch says. "Identity is much more interesting than racism. The play is about the future rather than the past. We are the future we make for ourselves not the families that have created us."

Emma,I think he said it beautifully.


----------



## mista200 (30 May 2006)

Ok if the cut off is 1/16 then how does one prove it??

Id like to give it a go and try and get away with it...


----------



## TheAnalyst (1 June 2006)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19324234-2702,00.html


Aboriginal girl first to face race-hate law
Ean Higgins and Alana Buckley-Carr 
June 01, 2006
AN Aboriginal teenager is the first person to be charged under Western Australia's new racial vilification laws after allegedly calling a 19-year-old a "white slut".
Mellissa Blackney - a Caucasian - was allegedly attacked by three Aboriginal females, aged 14, 15 and 21, after they threw a rock at her car, outside her Kalgoorlie home. 

Speaking to The Australian last night, Ms Blackney said she did not ask for the girl to be charged with racial vilification but it was appropriate such charges had been laid. "I don't know why they started this racist crap. I wasn't racist towards them," Ms Blackney said. 

"One of the Aboriginal women said 'Look at you, you white slut'. Then, they just decided to get physical. When I started to complain they just said, 'Just look at you, you f..king white bitch'." 

Ms Blackney claims the April attack was unprovoked. She had been sleeping in her parked car, waiting for her mother to return home with house keys, when the group approached and threw a rock at the Nissan Skyline. 

"They were there, laughing at me," the 19-year-old laboratory technician said. "They wanted to damage my car and it's bad to throw things at cars and expect people to be happy about it." 

The mining hub of Kalgoorlie attracts professionals who can command big wages in the commodities boom. But a portion of the city's large indigenous population is blighted by social problems. 

Ms Blackney said Aboriginal violence towards whites was a problem at certain times in some areas of Kalgoorlie but no more so than some white racism towards blacks, adding that where Aborigines were employed, the problem did not arise. 

The modified racial vilification laws came into effect in May last year in response to allegations that Jack van Tongeren's Australian Nationalists Movement was responsible for racist graffiti attacks on Perth's main synagogue and businesses owned by Asians. 

Under the new laws, people charged with serious racial vilification offences face up to 14 years jail. 

But the teenager can only be sentenced to a maximum of six months detention because of the jurisdiction. 

If she was dealt with in an adult court, she could face up to five years imprisonment. 

Police prosecutor Rob Taylor said the 14-year-old was originally charged with conduct likely to incite racial animosity or racist harassment, but it required the approval of the Director of Public Prosecutions and was replaced with the lesser charge she currently faces. 

West Australian DPP Robert **** told The Australian he would be watching the proceedings with great interest. 

"But special conditions apply when you are dealing with children," Mr **** said. 

State Opposition legal affairs spokeswoman Sue Walker, a supporter of the vilification laws, said they were modified to ensure tougher penalties for offences involving arson or violence that had a racial motivation. She said DPP-approval was needed on the more serious charges to ensure the intent of the law was maintained. Attorney-General Jim McGinty was not available for comment. 

The girl is scheduled to face a hearing in the Children's Court in August.


----------



## mista200 (1 June 2006)

hahah thats funny as!!!! The law was probably made by some do gooder greeny  who hates whites! Just goes to show how much racism whites have to put up with in this country!


----------



## TheAnalyst (2 June 2006)

Lets see  a Sydney or Melbourne newspaper print it???fat chance......lets see this type of stuff brang up say by Julia Gillard or is it considered customery for half casts and full blooded aboriginals to racially abuse whites??


----------



## Happy (3 June 2006)

Novel idea.

For halves it would be more like self-abuse, form of masochism.


----------



## rederob (4 June 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> hahah thats funny as!!!! The law was probably made by some do gooder greeny  who hates whites! Just goes to show how much racism whites have to put up with in this country!






> Ok if the cut off is 1/16 then how does one prove it??
> Id like to give it a go and try and get away with it...




mista
With all the resources available to you so that you don't look stupid, you still manage to pull it off quite effortlessly.
People that draft laws are, and always have been, the most conservative group of individuals in our society. 
As for whites putting up with racism from blacks, the chances are that 99% won't have that experience.  The opposite is true for blacks living in "white" society.

As for the second quote and you giving it a go; that's a champion idea!  Given you are not too bright, I suspect you will end up in the wrong queue and instead be endorsed as the local One Nation candidate.


----------



## Stan 101 (4 June 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> Sanqar
> Please do another English 101 and help me find out what an *aboriginee  * is.
> Could it be a person who was formerly an aboriginal?




Rederob, I'm glad you were on the ball. Was interested to see if anyone would pick it up.

I don't know where you'd get the impression "aboriginee" it would be in the former.
Lessee is used in present tense and notes a person currently in a lease or of same when refering to the term the lease was current.


cheers,


----------



## rederob (4 June 2006)

Stan 101 said:
			
		

> I don't know where you'd get the impression "aboriginee" it would be in the former.
> Lessee is used in present tense and notes a person currently in a lease or of same when refering to the term the lease was current.
> cheers,



Thanks Stan 101 for the lesson, although I had no "impression" about the former - was just asking a question.
By the way, nouns - such as lessee - are not encumbered by tense.  Accordingly, with glee the former refugee who was the lessee, evicted the aboriginee who is an abscondee, you see.


----------



## Stan 101 (4 June 2006)

touche!

cheers,


----------



## Happy (30 June 2006)

From ABC said:
			
		

> Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough says some Aboriginal offenders may be avoiding long jail terms because of fears they may die in custody.
> Mr Brough is concerned some convicted criminals are escaping long jail sentences and re-offending when they are released from prison.
> The 1991 Royal Commission on Aboriginal Deaths in Custody recommended offenders only be jailed as a last resort.
> But Mr Brough says this means victims of crime are being unintentionally robbed of justice.
> He says the pendulum has swung too far away from proper punishment due to fears that Aboriginal offenders may die in custody.





Even more tangible to be 1/16 or more, maybe it will change in the future.


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## pacer (30 June 2006)

Hey Rederob, I've experienced racism by Abbo's, along with anyone else who's lived in a mining town, but I've also made some good Abbo mates too, even got invited to an An abborigional party once......not much different to one you might have, except we had Goanna, snake and roo tail instead of  chicken, steak and snags. 
The funny thing was that when we turned up we were treated like Abbos turning up to a White party....till my mate said we were cool....then it was all on....partied till we dropped, and the food was awesome, and the people there wonderful,and curious as most had not interacted with whites in a sociable way....we left there with a better understanding of thier culture and ways....and a hangover to remember.


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## sarahmeehan3 (30 June 2006)

In case you dont know next week is a pretty special week for all Aboriginal and Islanders.
IT is NAIDOC Week.
If you do not know what it means, 
National Aboriginal And Islander Day Of Celebration.
I have decided to take on board over the next two months all questions raised on this forum and put them forward to my next council meeting.
Why?
So I can answer and perhaps educate some, make some understand and others well just have to disagree with each other.
Please feel free to ask whatever question you may and I will attampt to answer over the next few months.
I believe one my jobs in life is to make people aware of aboriginal needs and wants and also to educate aboriginal people in what others think.
A better understanding of each other will hopefully bring us all together.

Regards

Sarah


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## wayneL (30 June 2006)

sarahmeehan3 said:
			
		

> In case you dont know next week is a pretty special week for all Aboriginal and Islanders.
> IT is NAIDOC Week.
> If you do not know what it means,
> National Aboriginal And Islander Day Of Celebration.
> ...




Great idea Sarah.

Hope you can do a lot of good with this.

Cheers


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## Julia (30 June 2006)

Hello Sarah,

Thank you.  That's a great idea.

My question is:  why do so many people who have just a small percentage of aboriginal blood choose to identify as aboriginal?

e.g. I was born in New Zealand of white NZ mother and white Australian father.  Their respective parents and grandparents were from various parts of Britain and Europe.  If I were to go back three generations I could choose to identify as Scottish, English, German, Swedish.

I don't do so, and don't know any other white Australians/New Zealanders who do.  So why do people whose aboriginal blood has to be found several generations ago choose to identify as aboriginal?

Please accept that I'm not making any judgments or criticisms.  I simply don't understand why this occurs.

Julia


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## mista200 (1 July 2006)

um julia, maybe its because of abstudy, free legal etc.


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## wayneL (1 July 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> um julia, maybe its because of abstudy, free legal etc.




Mista

Lets let Sarah answer the question OK.


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## sarahmeehan3 (1 July 2006)

Thankyou Julia and Wayne l.
I note your concerns Julia and instead of me answering right now, I will put forward questions at our next meeting and give you the response from various people at our meeting.

Regards

Sarah


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## Julia (1 July 2006)

sarahmeehan3 said:
			
		

> Thankyou Julia and Wayne l.
> I note your concerns Julia and instead of me answering right now, I will put forward questions at our next meeting and give you the response from various people at our meeting.
> 
> Regards
> ...




Thanks, Sarah.  Look forward to hearing more when convenient.

I don't believe the answer can be as simplistic as eligibility for austudy etc which probably would only cover a small percentage of people.

Julia


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## rederob (1 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Thanks, Sarah.  Look forward to hearing more when convenient.
> 
> I don't believe the answer can be as simplistic as eligibility for austudy etc which probably would only cover a small percentage of people.
> 
> Julia



Julia
I can assure you that there are indigenous Australians that could "identify" as ATSI but choose not to.
My knowledge is based on 30 years experience in the training and employment industry, including a period with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission.
It's a bit unfortunate that a few at this forum are either not bright enough to appreciate their racism, or deliberatley wish to promote rumours and half truths for whatever small minded ends they want to perpetuate.

pacer, just noticed your earlier post.
If you treat people like people, and they just see you as people, there's not much difference between people.
Stick a "tag" on and we start to believe there needs to be a difference....... because?

sarah
I wish you the best.
I reckon the likes of mista and a few others would need to be lobotomised before they had the capacity to change their minds.


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## mista200 (1 July 2006)

all i want is equality between races.... by the way race is a myth anyway!


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## pacer (2 July 2006)

....I've been working out bush, all over Australia for the last 20 years and have a way better understanding of how it works with different races of aborigionals than most, and difffrent races of the other side too......wogs, chinks , japs, Maori, coconuts, frogs, curry munchers, pakis, ect..and even ******s......which they are even proud to call themselves these days, along with wogs  (the rest should be proud of what they are too)...................so tags are tags, and it is part of what you are...be proud of it! and as far as difference is concerned....what a load of bull.....there is a difference, it stares you in the face every day, but yes I do take people for who they are, till they screw with me, then it's game over and you're a flamin' (race) sonofa biach.

You are what your are...make the best of it, and stop ya bloody winging.

From what I have seen out bush, the best thing that could be done for the Aborigional population is to stop giving them 'sit down money' ie the dole.


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## mista200 (2 July 2006)

Couldnt agree more, im just saying that i wished aboriginies got the same chances as us, not more!!. And as far as racism goes, aboriginies get FAR LESS racism than muslilm/arabic australians!!! get off ya arses- get a job and forget about the past ....its time to move on aboriginies!


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## bunyip (2 July 2006)

I'm another one who wonders why people with only a small percentage of aboriginal blood insist on calling themselves aboriginal. Activist Nigel Mansel was a case in point. Blond hair, blue eyes, 90% white by the look of him, yet he insisted he was aboriginal. 

If I had a dog that looked like a bull terrier, and both its parents were bull terriers, but its great grandfather was a labrador cross, I can't see any good reason for calling the dog a labrador. Particulary if it overwhelmingly shows the features of a bull terrier.

I look forward to hearing Sara's responses from the people at her meeting. But in the meantime Sara, I'd like to hear your personal response.
Although I've never seen you, I presume you have at least 50% European blood and that in looks you resemble a European as much as you resemble an aboriginal. If this is in fact the case, why is it that you call yourself aboriginal?
Please ignore this question if your lineage is more than 50% aboriginal and you exhibit aboriginal features.
Please don't see my questions as nosey or critical, or an attempt to 'put you on the line', so to speak. I really am interested in knowing why some people call themselves aboriginal when in fact they show a predominance of European features.

Bunyip


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## Julia (2 July 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Couldnt agree more, im just saying that i wished aboriginies got the same chances as us, not more!!. And as far as racism goes, aboriginies get FAR LESS racism than muslilm/arabic australians!!! get off ya arses- get a job and forget about the past ....its time to move on aboriginies!




Mista

It might help clarify the discussion if you could list the areas where aboriginal people receive more money/opportunities than white people.

Then perhaps Rederob with his knowledge and experience could explain why these differences apply.

I think some genuine attempt at seeing where some of the resentment towards indigenous people arises might be more useful than the slinging of insults on both "sides".

Julia


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## mista200 (2 July 2006)

IN every government form ive filled in there has been a box for aboriginal and torres straight islander people..... get the picture..... hell even my VCE form had a box to tick if you were an aboriginal!!!

But yes julia i would love a list of the differences between aboriginies and normal people! and have emailed a few sources to see if they can help me find this...

But the part that really irks me is that there are places reserved for aboriginies in university courses... and they are the only race to recieve such racist help! Like i said b4 if your an aboriginal you can apply for practically any course uni and get in!!! if only life was so easy for the rest of us!!!


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## rederob (2 July 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Couldnt agree more, im just saying that i wished aboriginies got the same chances as us, not more!!. And as far as racism goes, aboriginies get FAR LESS racism than muslilm/arabic australians!!! get off ya arses- get a job and forget about the past ....its time to move on aboriginies!



mista
I agree that you are unlikely to be a racist - you simply are not bright enough to understand the concept.
I am very keen to learn from you where indigenous Australians get "more chances" than we non-indigenous.  A please explain, here.
You state *aboriginies get FAR LESS racism than muslilm/arabic australians*(sic).  Here's a challenge to you: Write onto a rental application that you are "aboriginal", or onto a job search application/record, and see how you fare.  Bet you change your mind quick smart!
Alternatively, if you reckon it's so easy, why not head out to a remote community and place a few people in work.
If you are successful, let me know as I can almost guarantee you ongoing work if you are.

bunyip
I know you want a reply from Sara and my apologies for intervening.
If you were a Kurd, tell me what your nationality was.
If you called yourself a Slav, tell me what your nationality was.
If you were a Romany (Gypsy), tell me what your nationality was.
Because I was born in Australia I call myself Australian. I equally identify with Irish, and could use my Eastern European heritage to confuse people further.
If I had "Aboriginal" heritage/lineage I would not be afraid to tell people - indeed, I would be quite proud.
Mansel's case is interesting.
White people are keen to forget that we (whites) hunted down and mostly killed off (or banished) the Tasmanian Aborigines.
Those in Tasmania that are still alive and able to identify their heritage should not be ashamed.
But back quickly to the question about identifying ones self as "ATSI" (ie Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander).
Be aware that all levels of Australian governement have - for as long as I can remember - consistently asked (on official forms for almost any purpose) ATSIs to "identify" themselves. There are many good, and some bad, reasons for this.  The good reasons are generally to do with ensuring systemic disadvantage is mitigated.
The bad reasons are to do with "encouraging" ATSIs to self identify because the agency asking gets specific dollar bonuses simply because it has ATSI clients.  Two federal departments that write such provisions into Contracts with service providers are Employment and Workplace Relations, and Education, Science and Training.
So it's a bit harsh "questioning" people who "identify" when all the time they are being asked (or cajoled) to do so because we or they might personally benefit.
I can say..... *it's the system, stupid*!


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## rederob (2 July 2006)

Julia and mista
Apologies for overlapping of themes in posts above - started before lunch and posted a moment ago.

mista
If it's so good for indigenous Australians at uni, perhaps you can tell me how many are participating in these courses, how many are attending uni as a percentage of the total population, and how many actually complete a qualification.
Tertiary institutions are encouraged to place indigenous students, and the government ensures that where applicants meet the criteria set, their enrolments will be funded.  Talk to an institution and ask how succesful they are in enroling indigenous students who live outside metropolitan areas.

My favourite bit of non-racist writing: *yes julia i would love a list of the differences between aboriginies and normal people*.
I can only think there must be a third "race", perhaps "mistafits"!


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## mista200 (2 July 2006)

Rederbob, obviously there will be bugger all aboriginies who even apply for courses let alone finish them.....whos fault is that?????

How are we meant to class aboriginies as "normal people" if they are treated differently from the rest of us? I actually met a part aboriginal girl a few weeks back at a club, and i can assure you that she is a human being just the same as all of us, and yet she can/could get benefits that we can't!


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## rederob (2 July 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Rederbob, obviously there will be bugger all aboriginies who even apply for courses let alone finish them.....whos fault is that?????



mista
Are you into "blame", mista?
If there is a problem, it needs to be fixed.
Some people are working hard on it.
Others want to whinge that we don't get what they get.
Well, I want to live long, not be jailed, not suffer treatable diseases, and not be discriminated against every time I look at at someone else. If I got what they got then all the things I want, I would not get.
Get it?


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## bunyip (2 July 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> bunyip
> I know you want a reply from Sara and my apologies for intervening.
> If you were a Kurd, tell me what your nationality was.
> If you called yourself a Slav, tell me what your nationality was.
> ...




All of which has nothing to do with my question to Sarah. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with being aboriginal, or that anyone of aboriginal heritage should be ashamed of it.
My great grandmother was Irish and my other great grandmother was Danish. 
I don't claim to be either Danish or Irish.....I was born in Australia and I'm Australian.
I simply asked Sarah why anyone who is predominately of  European descent would claim to be aboriginal, (or any other race for that matter). I think it's a fair question and I'm sure she's quite capable of answering it herself. 

Rather than speculating as to the reasons behind a persons insistence that they're aboriginal when they're predominately of an entirely different race, let's just let Sarah answer for herself, shall we.


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## Smurf1976 (2 July 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> If you find a job/occupation/trade or vocation that you love then you persist with it to the highest level. It's called loving your work and you become proficient and the best in your specialty. These people always float to the top regardless  of education or background. If you are unlucky enough to never find this then you just work. You can have a string of letters behind you name but does not always mean that you are good at what you do.



You've hit the nail on the head there IMO. I've come across plenty of people lacking formal qualifications who are _very_ much better at what they do than those with a string of letters after their name. Obviously there are exceptions (you wouldn't want an unqualified doctor, for example) but in general this does seem to be the case - those with a genuine interest will do well no matter what hurdles are placed in their way. Those lacking interest will be mediocre at best no matter how well qualified they are.

As for race issues, my mother was born in England but I was born in Australia. As far as I'm concerned I'm Australian. 

Thinking about it more locally, if both of your parents were born in Adelaide but you were born in Melbourne and have always lived in Melbourne then you wouldn't claim to be South Australian. Unless perhaps if the SA government starts handing out money...


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## rederob (2 July 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Rather than speculating as to the reasons behind a persons insistence that they're aboriginal when they're predominately of an entirely different race, let's just let Sarah answer for herself, shall we.



bunyip
First, you totally missed the points I made.
Secondly, I had no intention of answering for Sara.

In the States people might identify as "Hispanic" or "Latino", and I can guarantee that most white Americans would not understand or be able to pick the difference between these "races" and for that matter between people who would call themselves "American".
In Australia do we assume that if you have blonde hair and/or blue eyes you cannot be "Aboriginal"?  So if that blonde haired, blue eyed person lived an Aboriginal community, lived in a house with an extended family, and spoke a native tongue plus English, they could not be Aboriginal.  Or perhaps "*should not*" be.

I have lived most of my life in the eastern States of Australia, but I call myself "West Australian".  It's how I choose to identify myself.

Michael Mansel (Nigel's race was the F1, by the way) chose to identify as "Aboriginal" because he can trace Aboriginal heritage on both his mother and father's sides.  When I next meet with him I will tell him he would do better to change his name to Nigel so there can be no mistaking his race!


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## It's Snake Pliskin (2 July 2006)

> .. and not be discriminated against every time I look at at someone else.




White Australia gets this from our northern neighbour and from most who are not white in this country. :nono:


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## Julia (2 July 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> mista
> Are you into "blame", mista?
> If there is a problem, it needs to be fixed.
> Some people are working hard on it.
> ...




If we just look at the disease question:  diabetes with its concomitant renal failure, high blood pressure and resulting cardiovascular disease and strokes:  these are mostly preventable by reasonably sensible diet and adequate exercise.  I specifically said "mostly" because there will be some people who will develop these disorders despite their best efforts to avoid them.
However, I think most health providers would agree that we all need to take responsibility for being proactive in our own healthcare and those of us who drink excessive amounts of alcohol, smoke either cigarettes or other drugs, eat too much fatty food, and do not exercise are necessarily exposing ourselves to developing these diseases.  These patients, white and black, then have to be cared for by the tax payer funded health system.

Then there is the question of the greater number of indigenous people in jails.  Either this is undue and extreme prejudice by sentencing judges/juries, or increased level of crime by indigenous people.  Which is it?

Then we haven't touched on the high level of domestic violence and child abuse which prevails in aboriginal communites.  Yes, of course, it exists in white communities also, but not to nearly the same extent.  It is even worse amongst the NZ Maori population.  Why is this?

These are the problems which concern most people.  It's not a question of blame or criticism.  But neither should it be acceptable for us to shrug our collective shoulders and stop asking why the problems exist to the extent that they do.

I have much respect for Noel Pearson who promotes the concept of indigenous people taking responsibility for their situation.  If there was more leadership within indigenous communities of the calibre of this articulate and thoughtful man, I think we'd all regard the future of the aboriginal population with considerably more optimism.

Julia


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## Joe Blow (3 July 2006)

Several posts have been deleted from this thread as they contained nothing more than personal attacks and petty bickering and contributed nothing to the thread. 

I would also like to make one thing very clear. I do not want the term 'abo' used on ASF. In my opinion it is racist and derogatory. Any post which contains this term will be instantly deleted. If you are too lazy to type aborigine then perhaps you shouldn't be posting.

Now lets get this thread back on track and stick to the issue please.


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## Happy (4 July 2006)

Lazy typists could use Word Program and have Macro working that every time you hit ab it will come up with complete word.

Joe, you could also instead of deleting posts automatically re-edit them, after all it doesn’t matter who uses macro.


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## nelly (4 July 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> What surprises me is why people don’t say (with equal pride) of any other blood in their vanes, sometimes 60% or even 90%?
> 
> I can only be sarcastic if say what I think why, so I won’t.



I'm always proud to say I'm  part fijian, but sometimes not so proud of the european half................in the end we are all citizens of the human race.


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## nelly (4 July 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> I'm another one who wonders why people with only a small percentage of aboriginal blood insist on calling themselves aboriginal. Activist Nigel Mansel was a case in point. Blond hair, blue eyes, 90% white by the look of him, yet he insisted he was aboriginal.
> 
> If I had a dog that looked like a bull terrier, and both its parents were bull terriers, but its great grandfather was a labrador cross, I can't see any good reason for calling the dog a labrador. Particulary if it overwhelmingly shows the features of a bull terrier.
> 
> ...



Hi Bunyip
Fair question and I can only answer for myself...I am half Fijian/German/White N.Z.[that doesn't equate to half anything, but you get the gist]
And I only ever identify myself [if the question is put to me] as being a Kiwi. Why do people automatically assume I am part Moari???? [and they do.]  [not that that would be a bad thing]
Anyway I think it is all about how you identify with 'self.'   
cheers...have a nice day


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## bunyip (6 July 2006)

sarahmeehan3 said:
			
		

> I think most replies I have read is in fact an indication of what many white Australians think about us Aboriginals.
> 
> Before any of you make any more comments may I suggest that you visit an Aboriginal centre or township and see for yourselves what the living standards are.




Sarah

I've been to several aboriginals towns around Australia.....the town of Elliott in the Northern Territory and the town of Worrabinda in Queensland are two that come to mind.

In Elliott most of the houses (all of which are provided FREE by the government) had holes kicked in the walls, doors ripped off hinges, windows broken.
Same story in Woorabinda, and in most other aboriginal towns I've been in.
Wooribinda is an hour or so inland from Rockhampton, on the Tropic of Capricorn. It's hot up there in the tropics, and the Wooribinda community lobbeyed the government to provide a public swimming pool so they could cool off in summer, and so that young people would have some enjoyable activity, hence less time to get bored and turn to petty crime.
Worrabinda was featured in a TV program earlier this year.
Their olympic size swimming pool, provided free at their request, is now a pool of stagnant green water with algae growing on the surface, the tiles have been ripped off the pool, the water has been deliberatedly fouled by having foreign substances thrown into it, the windows in the change rooms have been smashed, holes kicked in the walls, plants have been ripped out of the gardens.
I'm sure you get the picture.....the community has destroyed the pool they were given - it's now shut down and is never used.
They've treated the pool with the same contempt with which they treat just about everything else they're given, including their houses.
The houses provided are quite adequate, I've lived in worse myself, and nobody gave it to me free, I've always had to buy my own houses.
The standards in aboriginal communities are largely the result of the communities themselves not appreciating what they're given, not making the most of their opportunities, wrecking perfectly good houses and amenities.
You rarely see a nice garden around an aboriginal home. Why not?....they have water laid on, they have plenty of time on their hands, they're as physically capable as anyone else of digging up the ground and planting a few flowers or trees or lawn.
I get a little tired of hearing about the low living standards of aboriginals. They are given every opportunity and encouragement to get an education, get careers, and make something of their lives.
They have money pushed their way constantly....free housing being just one example. 
If aboriginals want a better standard of living then they need to realise that those in the community with decent living standards are in that position largely because of the actions they took. They didn't demand that the government provide them with their every need. They made the most of their educational opportunities, they got jobs and careers and worked hard to get ahead. They borrowed to buy a house and they worked hard to pay it off. They planted gardens around their homes to give themselves a pleasant living environment.
If they used alcohol they did so responsibly in most cases....they didn't abuse it.
I suggest you point out these things to the locals next time you visit an aboriginal community. Tell them about their opportunities, explain to them that they need to make the most of those opportunities if they want to rise above their present situation. Try and get them to change their mentality that the rest of Australia owes them a living.
I have nothing against people for the colour of their skin. I went to boarding school with black kids and I became great mates with some of them. They were top blokes and top sportsmen, and they made the most of their opportunities and made something of their lives. I still keep in touch with them, I bear hug them whenever I run into them at school reunions etc.
People should be judged on character, integrity, decency, not skin colour.
Aboriginal people are just as capable of showing character, decency and integrity as anyone else. 
I have the utmost respect and admiration for any aboriginal person who has grasped his/her opportunities and made a success of his or her life.
Unfortunately, these people constitute only a very small percentage of the aboriginal population. 
White Australia is not to blame. The opportunities are there in abundance for any aboriginal person who want to take them.
THIS is the message you need to put out in the aboriginal communities you visit.

One more thing. I suggest you do everything possible in your role as an aboriginal community worker, to get alcohol banned in aboriginal communities. I don't need to tell you the problems it causes. 
Some aboriginal communities have passed laws banning alcohol, and the beneficial effect has been immediate.

Bunyip


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## Julia (6 July 2006)

I've never been to any aboriginal communities.  I think most of us would be disgusted by the type of vandalism that Bunyip describes.

One suggestion I have heard is that, despite so called "civilisation", aboriginal people are still genetically hunters and gatherers, and as such simply do not understand the concept of respect and care for property.  I'm not in the least defending irresponsible abuse of houses, pools or anything else, but sometimes looking for some reason why might help in finding the solution.

I wonder, too, if this lack of respect and sense of responsibility would be the same if they had actually themselves worked for these assets?  If instead of being presented with a beautiful swimming pool, courtesy of the taxpayer, they had been required to physically participate in its construction.  Would that have possibly imbued a sense of achievement and pride and resulted in a different outcome?

Passive welfare certainly doesn't appear to be working.  Perhaps it's worth (a) removing alcohol as Bunyip has suggested, and (b) ceasing the handouts in favour of earning the things they want or need.

Julia


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## Happy (6 July 2006)

ABC Thursday said:


> Abbott says Indigenous communities must do more
> 
> 
> Federal Health Minister Tony Abbott says Aboriginal communities in South Australia's far north should do more to help themselves.
> ...





I wonder how long it will take to turn the tide?


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## mista200 (6 July 2006)

perhaps we could give them a free share portfolio to manage each- just a little bit to start off with and the extra amount they recieve via the dole could go into buying a few more shares each week....? With free brokerage of course!!!!

also banning alcohol and PETROL would be good for aborinigie communities!


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

They  need to *Know* self respect, as Noel Mason has correctly stated !

Nothing for nothing !

Bob.


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## TheAnalyst (6 July 2006)

Our white government would not give whites free housing....ever


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## Happy (14 July 2006)

> Friday, July 14, 2006.
> 
> No arrests made over Indigenous abuse
> 
> ...




Some possibilities 

- False allegations
- Conspiracy driven by fear or resentment


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## Julia (14 July 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Some possibilities
> 
> - False allegations
> - Conspiracy driven by fear or resentment




Not necessarily, Happy.  There is a widespread phenomenon of "no one talking" when it comes to this sort of problem.

A recent example has been in New Zealand where two very young twins were murdered by someone in their own family.  Despite exhaustive interviewing of the extended family by police, considerable intervention by both Maori and Pakeha social workers, etc. no one is saying anything and the perpetrator goes unpunished.

This could be a result of some sort of misplaced "family loyalty" or, possibly more likely, fear of retribution for speaking out.

Julia


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## visual (14 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Not necessarily, Happy.  There is a widespread phenomenon of "no one talking" when it comes to this sort of problem.
> 
> A recent example has been in New Zealand where two very young twins were murdered by someone in their own family.  Despite exhaustive interviewing of the extended family by police, considerable intervention by both Maori and Pakeha social workers, etc. no one is saying anything and the perpetrator goes unpunished.
> 
> ...




I`m with Julia,
this in fact has been the story all along,thats why these problems have been getting out of hand in the past and it doesnt look like its about to change.


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## Happy (15 July 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Some possibilities
> 
> - False allegations
> - Conspiracy driven by fear or resentment





'  ..  Conspiracy driven by fear .. '

Looks that I am with Julia too.


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## bunyip (16 July 2006)

Sarah

I'm a little disappointed that you seem to have 'gone to ground' on this issue.
A few weeks ago you offered to answer questions about matters relating to aboriginals. 
You were asked why you identify yourself as aboriginal when you've stated that you are in fact white.
I thought it was a fair question, but rather than answer it you responded by saying that you'd put the question to your next meeting of aboriginals, and pass on their response to us.

We look forward to hearing the response from that meeting, but in the meantime we'd like to hear why YOU personally choose to call yourself aboriginal when in fact you are white. Afterall, the question was put to you personally in the first instance.
Apart from that question, there have been other issues raised in this thread about problems existing in aboriginal communities, e.g. vandalism, child sexual abuse, violence, petrol sniffing, alcoholism. 
While I don't recall that you were specifically asked questions about these issues, I thought at least that you might have responded with some comments or suggestions on how you think these issues can be addressed.
You have, afterall, offered to 'fly the aboriginal flag', so to speak, by inviting questions and comments from the forum, and offering to give us your views.

I hope those views will be forthcoming in the very near future.....I look forward to hearing them, and having a balanced discussion with you on issues relating to aboriginals.
And I do mean a BALANCED discussion. Unlike some on this thread, I'm not interested in putting aboriginals down, and writing them off as a race of useless so and so's who will never amount to anything. 
I believe aboriginal people have as much potential as anyone else. I consider it a tragedy that this potential is not, generally speaking, being realised.
To reinforce my point about the potential of aboriginal people, the first aboriginal surgeon recently graduated in Australia. There have of course been numerous aboriginal doctors, but this is apparently the first aboriginal to go one step futher by becoming a surgeon.
This man has my respect and admiration, as do all aboriginals who make the most of the opportunities that are extended to them.


Bunyip


----------



## Julia (16 July 2006)

Bunyip

You have expressed my thoughts also.

Sarah, Bunyip has reiterated the areas on which you offered to come back to us.

Perhaps you could include in your response some comment on why you think it might be that, e.g. we now have an aboriginal surgeon in addition to several aboriginal doctors  but are frequently told that indigenous people are so disadvantaged etc that they cannot change their situation.  Why can some do it and not others?  Those who have succeeded prove it can be done.

I heard a radio interview with the young surgeon concerned.  He was an immense credit to his people and to his profession.

Julia


----------



## TheAnalyst (26 July 2006)

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,19919389-5005961,00.html


Driver attacked after child hit

July 26, 2006 06:02pm


A MOTORIST has been attacked in his car after knocking down a small child in Alice Springs.

The four-year-old boy sustained minor injuries when he was hit by a sedan on Wills Terrace, about 3pm (AEST) today, a police spokeswoman said.

It appeared the boy had run into the path of the vehicle. He was taken by ambulance to Alice Springs Hospital, she said.

"Witnesses told police the driver of the vehicle pulled up and a large group of Aboriginal people attacked the car," the spokeswoman said.

"The driver was forced to take shelter in the nearby hotel until police dispersed the angry crowd."

The motorist was not hurt.

Meanwhile, two people were injured during a brawl in a shopping centre car park in the outback central Australian town at noon today.

Up to 20 people were reported to have been involved in the fighting, using weapons including iron bars, before police dispersed the crowd, she said.

Two people were arrested, but no charges have yet been laid.
Also in Breaking News

    * Israel: Several hurt in Haifa rocket attack
    * Iraq: Saddam 'forced' back to face trial
    * Petrol: Pump prices nudge $1.50 mark
    * Mob: Driver attacked after child hit
    * Cabinet: PM flags Vaile move from Trade
    * Court: Corby gives nod to final appeal
    * Drink-drive: Gardiner vows career comeback


See they dont supervise the kids then beat up someone....shocking


----------



## Bobby (27 July 2006)

?????
I still don't get it, *White* people who don't look in anyway aboriginal say they are aboriginal   


What do real aboriginals who look aboriginal think of them ?

Bob.


----------



## bunyip (27 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> ?????
> I still don't get it, *White* people who don't look in anyway aboriginal say they are aboriginal
> 
> 
> ...




Bob

We're still waiting for Sarah to provide us with the answers to these mysteries.
But after inviting questions from the forum on aboriginal issues, and offering to answer them, she's gone quiet on us.

Bunyip


----------



## nelly (27 July 2006)

"I still don't get it, White people who don't look in anyway aboriginal say they are aboriginal."
Bobby...whats the problem...i don't look Fijian but i identify myself as one...it is not about the color of the skin... sheesh!  
What does an Australian look like for chrissake!
Cheerful...


----------



## macca (28 July 2006)

Nelly,

Mainly the problem is that the government has a pro discrimination policy to try and help the aboriginal people overcome past discrimination, then become part of mainstream society.

If one does not "appear to be aboriginal" then rarely has there been any discrimination against that person in the past.

Those who are perhaps 1/8 th aboriginal rarely suffer any discrimination yet they receive favourable treatment which we cannot get and in fact have to pay for.

It really is just a case of the famous Ozzie "fair go"


----------



## Bobby (28 July 2006)

macca said:
			
		

> Nelly,
> 
> Mainly the problem is that the government has a pro discrimination policy to try and help the aboriginal people overcome past discrimination, then become part of mainstream society.
> 
> ...




Hello Macca,

Good accurate post.

I think Nelly did'nt understand the relevance of this threads true meaning, her conjecture is apparent.   

Bob.


----------



## nelly (28 July 2006)

macca said:
			
		

> Nelly,
> 
> Mainly the problem is that the government has a pro discrimination policy to try and help the aboriginal people overcome past discrimination, then become part of mainstream society.
> 
> ...




Hi Macca...i understand, but isn't it the systems in place and not the Aborigines who have devised things to work this way...back in NZ the same thing....i couldn't get into a lot of courses etc because i wasn't Moari......i never blamed my Moari friends for taking them up on it.....and i'm sure the % of places in any one course was tiny compared to what was on offer to non-moari. And don't we pay much more for all the 'white' dole-bludgers etc...and i mean the real scam the system types...and for murderers, rapists etc to loll away their time in prison. I think the Aborigines over here get a tuf break are stereotyped whether deserved or not....i mean even the junkies get a free ride at the methodone clinics all over the place...these systems are all in place to help the minority who want to help themselves to a better life...there will always be the lot who abuse any system...does that mean it is not a good system...?
Cheerful...


----------



## nelly (28 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> ?????
> I still don't get it, *White* people who don't look in anyway aboriginal say they are aboriginal
> 
> 
> ...




Bob hi....r u inferring people are saying they are Aboriginal for the 'tons' of free stuff they can get...or so they will get preferential treatment when they apply for accomodation/jobs..?
What do *real* Aboriginals who *look * Aboriginal think of them.?
...r u saying u have 2 look a certain way 2 identify with your particular heritage...you'll have 2 ask an Aboriginal looking Aborigine that ?
cheerful.... 
ps...if this is just a load of....conjecture....scusee


----------



## Julia (28 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi Macca...i understand, but isn't it the systems in place and not the Aborigines who have devised things to work this way...back in NZ the same thing....i couldn't get into a lot of courses etc because i wasn't Moari......i never blamed my Moari friends for taking them up on it.....and i'm sure the % of places in any one course was tiny compared to what was on offer to non-moari. And don't we pay much more for all the 'white' dole-bludgers etc...and i mean the real scam the system types...and for murderers, rapists etc to loll away their time in prison. I think the Aborigines over here get a tuf break are stereotyped whether deserved or not....i mean even the junkies get a free ride at the methodone clinics all over the place...these systems are all in place to help the minority who want to help themselves to a better life...there will always be the lot who abuse any system...does that mean it is not a good system...?
> Cheerful...




Nelly

If you have in fact lived in New Zealand, I'm surprised you haven't learned how to spell "Maori".

Julia


----------



## Bobby (28 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Bob hi....r u inferring people are saying they are Aboriginal for the 'tons' of free stuff they can get...or so they will get preferential treatment when they apply for accomodation/jobs..?
> What do *real* Aboriginals who *look * Aboriginal think of them.?
> ...r u saying u have 2 look a certain way 2 identify with your particular heritage...you'll have 2 ask an Aboriginal looking Aborigine that ?
> cheerful....
> ps...if this is just a load of....conjecture....scusee




Well Nelly are you asking me to spoon feed you ?  

Or are you having difficulty with comprehension, regarding the cut off point of someone claiming to be Aboriginal ?   

Regards 
Bob.


----------



## nelly (28 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Nelly
> 
> If you have in fact lived in New Zealand, I'm surprised you haven't learned how to spell "Maori".
> 
> Julia




Hi Julia.....whoops  ... dyslexia tends 2 kickin when tired..lol
And yeah..have been over here 10 yrs....luv it!
cheerful


----------



## nelly (28 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Well Nelly are you asking me to spoon feed you ?
> 
> Or are you having difficulty with comprehension, regarding the cut off point of someone claiming to be Aboriginal ?
> 
> ...




Hi Bob....thanks but no thanks...i manage[barely] 2 stuff toast in occasionally.
yeah maybe i am havin problems with comprehension....does there have 2 b a cut off point?
cheerful


----------



## Bobby (28 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi Bob....thanks but no thanks...i manage[barely] 2 stuff toast in occasionally.
> yeah maybe i am havin problems with comprehension....does there have 2 b a cut off point?
> cheerful




Hello Nelly,

Yes I do think there must be a cut off point .
The ramifications without this would be detrimental to " Aboriginals", think about those that could take advantage of no cut off point e,g  B'S artists   

Bob.


----------



## nelly (28 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hello Nelly,
> 
> Yes I do think there must be a cut off point .
> The ramifications without this would be detrimental to " Aboriginals", think about those that could take advantage of no cut off point e,g  B'S artists
> ...




Hi Bob...yes i agree with u on the bulls##t artists...but they r across the board.....mayb they could hook every1 up to a lie detector when they sign up 4 'free rides'.....  
cheerful


----------



## Bobby (28 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi Bob...yes i agree with u on the bulls##t artists...but they r across the board.....mayb they could hook every1 up to a lie detector when they sign up 4 'free rides'.....
> cheerful



 Greeting Nelly,

You seem a fun bird, Yep them bull***T artists are all round us , be carful.

Just understand this ! to make money off the market , you will be taking it off someone else !
Its no game , think what you are about to do, how clever are you ?
Tell Me.

Regards 
Bob.


----------



## Happy (29 July 2006)

Not sure if Sunday or 60 minutes will run this week segment on one community getting isolated due to wet season with 2 gangs running the place.

Not sure if view will be unbiased, but might put some extra light on the issue.


----------



## robert toms (29 July 2006)

Interesting article in the Guardian ....London newspaper... a few days ago...about the detrimental effect of the British Empire on indigenous populations.They referred ,amongst others,to the Australian aboriginal population left "drunk and demoralised "on the outskirts of the Australian mainstream society.(not to mention dispossessed).The article also referred to the mess that they left in Palestine,Iraq,Afghanistan,Kenya,Nigeria etc.
I suppose that you could also add South Africa and New Zealand to that list.
I remember being taught at school what a magnificent institution that the British Empire was.Not even British historians repeat that line any more.As we all know it was for the benefit of the British shareholders.


----------



## Julia (30 July 2006)

robert toms said:
			
		

> Interesting article in the Guardian ....London newspaper... a few days ago...about the detrimental effect of the British Empire on indigenous populations.They referred ,amongst others,to the Australian aboriginal population left "drunk and demoralised "on the outskirts of the Australian mainstream society.(not to mention dispossessed).The article also referred to the mess that they left in Palestine,Iraq,Afghanistan,Kenya,Nigeria etc.
> I suppose that you could also add South Africa and New Zealand to that list.
> I remember being taught at school what a magnificent institution that the British Empire was.Not even British historians repeat that line any more.As we all know it was for the benefit of the British shareholders.




Robert, do you have a link to that article?

Julia


----------



## robert toms (30 July 2006)

Sorry Julia no,but it was one of their guest feature writers...down left hand column on their opening page...it was only early last week I think....and I only thought of it again after I scanned the "Aboriginal" thread again.I recalled a friend of mine, a long time ago, telling me how the British had brought civilization to India...and to pass history exams in high school we had to argue the value of apartheid in South Africa,that is,what a legitimate form of government it was....beneficial to the black population.These things we were inculcated with during the Menzies era.
As an aside,are any members of the current Howard government welcome in South Africa? I cannot recall Downer ever making a trip there?


----------



## nelly (31 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Greeting Nelly,
> 
> You seem a fun bird, Yep them bull***T artists are all round us , be carful.
> 
> ...




Hi ya Bob.....i'll b matching it.....i know it is no 'game'....and all i do is think..[not after the rugby last night...it hurt 2 much]......i'm more intelligent compared 2 most  ....and more stoopid compared 2 a few  .....the terms 'play' and 'game' ...i don't use them 2 imply a flippant attitude....i was actually called a moron 4 using those terms...hehe
cheerful


----------



## Bobby (31 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi ya Bob.....i'll b matching it.....i know it is no 'game'....and all i do is think..[not after the rugby last night...it hurt 2 much]......i'm more intelligent compared 2 most  ....and more stoopid compared 2 a few  .....the terms 'play' and 'game' ...i don't use them 2 imply a flippant attitude....i was actually called a moron 4 using those terms...hehe
> cheerful



 Good for you Nelly,
I like the thinking & drinking !

Have fun 
Bob.


----------



## mista200 (6 August 2006)

why hasnt anyone yet admitted that whites claim to be aboriginal for the extra benefits??? Is it really that hard to speak the truth; im not saying that is the case for sarah, but hey if i had the chance to get into university with a crappy ENTER score then i would take it too!


----------



## rederob (6 August 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> why hasnt anyone yet admitted that whites claim to be aboriginal for the extra benefits??? Is it really that hard to speak the truth; im not saying that is the case for sarah, but hey if i had the chance to get into university with a crappy ENTER score then i would take it too!



Mista
Why don't you "put up or shut up".
Your lack of understanding of matters raised in this and related threads says what, about you?
Throw enough mud and it will stick?
If you know of actual instances of what you want raised, report them here and I will personally present them to the proper authorities.
Alternatively, my private email is available.


----------



## Julia (6 August 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> why hasnt anyone yet admitted that whites claim to be aboriginal for the extra benefits??? Is it really that hard to speak the truth; im not saying that is the case for sarah, but hey if i had the chance to get into university with a crappy ENTER score then i would take it too!




Some time ago on this thread when a similar claim was made about the extra privileges available to Aborigines, I asked the contributor (can't remember who it was now) just exactly what these extra privileges were.  I asked because I simply don't know whether this often made suggestion is actually true or not.  Perhaps they do get extra benefits.  If so what are they?

And now again we have Mista repeating the suggestion.  So, Mista, could you be specific as to just what you are referring to and then we might all be wiser.  Or, alternatively, are you just perpetuating another myth?

Julia


----------



## Happy (6 August 2006)

I heard of few.
If you are aboriginal you don’t have to buy fishing licence.
Also there was something mentioned so-called ‘shoe money’, somewhere between 2 and 3 dollars for every day aboriginal primary school student was present at school.
I also heard about low interest rates for house.
As to special treatment to get place at the uni, I heard too, but I have no hard evidence, suppose one could ask politician or search some government sites.

But I suppose this is not officially published, so it is hard to get to know about extra privileges available for some in the land of Australia where everybody is equal.


----------



## Bobby (6 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> I heard of few.
> If you are aboriginal you don’t have to buy fishing licence.
> Also there was something mentioned so-called ‘shoe money’, somewhere between 2 and 3 dollars for every day aboriginal primary school student was present at school.
> I also heard about low interest rates for house.
> ...




Yes happy, there are many more open doors for aboriginals to advance themselves then others who think they are Australians .

Why is that ?  

Bob.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Yes happy, there are many more open doors for aboriginals to advance themselves then others who think they are Australians .
> 
> Why is that ?
> 
> Bob.




Grow a brain!

Hardly a land of opportunity for those who grow up in a abusive, non policed, poorly tutored aboriginal community. People whom we have encouraged through poor policy to make them dependant on social security. 

If any of them can take advantage of some small concessions that the government may give them despite their disadvantaged background and get to Uni then good on them!


----------



## Bobby (6 August 2006)

Knobby22 said:
			
		

> Grow a brain!
> 
> Hardly a land of opportunity for those who grow up in a abusive, non policed, poorly tutored aboriginal community. People whom we have encouraged through poor policy to make them dependant on social security.



Yes Knoppy,
Thats the point (Grow a brain ) can't you see it ?, are you another Richard Cranium   
Treat Aboriginals as normal Australians , why have communities, lets just let the melt happen !

Knoppy don't try esoteric rhetoric replys to my posts till you ( grow a brain )   

Bob.


----------



## pacer (7 August 2006)

It's a love-hate relationship here.....lotta rubbish being touted from those citty fellas ...huh.....

The fact is Aborigional Australia is what it is, and it wiil go up or it will go down, depending on the government of the day...just like the stockmarket!

And all government at the moment is pathetic......

They have no balls to say what should be said....or do what realy needs to be done!

The day government gave the Aborigional 'SIT-DOWN MONEY' was the turining point in the degredation of the 'people', and now that the Aborigioinal  have acess to 'MIND NUMBING CHEMICALS and THE MEDIA', they have , in effect, labeled themselves as a degrated minority that is at the bottom of society.....but this is changing...slowly....Aborigional people are a proud and happy people, and it's only the interaction with 'WHITE' society that has ruined, and continues to riuin, a great Australian icon....THE ABORIGIONAN RACE

I have pesonaly met, and made 'mates', with several 'ABBO' blokes and chicks and had a ball with them all.......but I have also been spat on bashed and treated like a piece of roo poo by others......

90% of the time I was treated extremely well.....probably only because I diddn't speak down to them (but I am 6'2") and tried to find out what they are on about...went to a couple of ABBO parties, ate their food( roo goanna, whitchety....maccas...lol)...and had a good old chat about where the community was going.......no holds barred!

They even say SIT-DOWN MONEY was the worst thing you could have done for them!...Blow me down cobba!

And on the note of Aborigional health.....It's Bad, where white australia has interferred....but for those who haven't had too much 'white medicine' in the last 20,000 years....not much has changed.....people live and, as is expected, people die.....life is a disease that will kill you! ... lol

90% of smokers will die and 40% of heavy drinkers will die...

THAT's  130%........Where are we gonna find the other 30%....lol

I should insuure myself for death by life...easy money but I can't spend it...


----------



## Knobby22 (7 August 2006)

Sorry Bob for being insulting.


----------



## Happy (7 August 2006)

But 'SIT-DOWN MONEY' could be used as an opportunity to advance yourself not as opportunity to become do nothing sitter.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are in remote area, you can still borrow a book, magazine if you want that is.

My parents probably helped me to develop thirst for knowledge. 
Even at young age I couldn’t understand why somebody would be loitering instead of going to library, going for a swim, run or play ball or learn something.

I loved to hang around when cars were repaired, I loved gardening as long as I can remember, it never ceased to amaze me how little seed can be packed with enough information to grow to a big tree.

Loved foreign languages, maths, geometry, and trigonometry. 
I can still calculate manually length of diagonal of right angle triangle, goes for rectangle and square obviously. Sometimes at the age of powerful computers I still use it as party trick.

It all depends on taking at least partial responsibility for your life, not just being alive and waiting for government body to arrange it for you while collecting 'SIT-DOWN MONEY' or other concessions.


----------



## rederob (7 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are in remote area, you can still borrow a book, magazine if you want that is.



Stand corrected.
Some aboriginal communities still don't have water power or sewerage, or a police presence, or medical facilities.
A library or even a shop within cooee would be novel.
I wonder if Happy knows what kind of papers, magazines or books would interest people from these communities?
How about the Financial Review!


----------



## Julia (7 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> Stand corrected.
> Some aboriginal communities still don't have water power or sewerage, or a police presence, or medical facilities.
> A library or even a shop within cooee would be novel.
> I wonder if Happy knows what kind of papers, magazines or books would interest people from these communities?
> How about the Financial Review!




You make a reasonable point,Rederob.

In discussion of this subject in the past you have shown knowledge of and familiarity with aboriginal communities.  Could you share with us some suggestions for how you feel the lives of the people in those communities could be improved?  

Bobby has suggested more or less that, instead of living in these remote communities, the people should be absorbed into more advantaged areas.
Do you agree with this?  How do you think it would work?

How should the question of the extreme violence and sexual abuse be addressed?

Whilst there is criticism of aboriginal people receiving easier entry to university (this is alleged:  I don't know if it actually happens or not), I am all for this if it offers them any possibility of improving their lives through acquiring an education.  Then, on the basis that most people change their behaviour successfully through positive reinforcement rather than criticism,  the success of those few might then encourage others to follow the same path.  Some indigenous people are making their mark really successfully in professional and academic  areas and thus setting a great example for others.

If any of us stop to think about it, how do we respond to constant criticism and negativity?  Comments we all make from time to time like "aboriginal people are hopeless - they'll never amount to anything....." etc etc.  are persistent.  We see all the media images of drunken and violent individuals.
We rarely hear or see much about those indigenous people who have distinguished themselves in the other direction.

If I'm on the receiving end of constant disparagement, criticism and perjorative remarks, and never hear any encouragement or praise for any small achievement, sooner or later I will lose any confidence I may have had and believe only  that I'm destined for failure in every sense.  Most people behave as others expect them to.

I don't believe we should continue to provide housing for indigenous people when they have trashed an existing home.  To do so teaches them nothing about taking responsibility.  Neither do I think we should give them the dole without expecting something in return, even if it's just that they establish and care for a garden to grow vegetables for their community.
Giving anyone, white or black, money for doing nothing is guaranteed to strip that person of pride and challenge.

Julia


----------



## pacer (7 August 2006)

No Aborigional communities had running water, power, housing ect, 200 years ago so why do they need it now?....crucify me!

What they did have was thousands of years of culture, bush remedies and a law that seems strange to us these days but is not much different to the way we punished our own...a spear in the leg versus a flogging with a whip. there were no jails, you were just ostricised and left to fend for yourself, and usualy  died from lack of the baisics. 

One Aborigional mate told me that, in his Mob, to become a man you were beaten sensless and left alone in the desert for three days with no food or water, while an elder tracked and spied on you. If you died then you were 'no bloody good' and it made the Mob stronger as a result....it still goes on today behind a closed curtain. Strange and cuel you say? I recon it's not a bad idea. Strange and cruel is putting a bush Abbo in a box with bars when he'd rather be speared and beaten..possibly to die.

I just wonder what would have happened to Australia's Aborigionals  if it had been taken over by the Indonesians, Japanese, or Chinese ect. as they are well known for thier more brutal rule. I don't think there would be many, if any, left at all.

There's good and bad in the Aborigional culture of today, and I can't see a bloke in a suit helping a bloke with a digerie-doo in any realy meaningful way as the two are too far separated in thier views, unless we beat the bloke in the suit senseless and put him out in the desert for three days to contemplate the fate of Aborigional Australia, and his demise a useful problem solving tool.

So ....what are you gonna do to help the Aborigional community today?....same as you did yesterday probably...nothing....go back to share trading and stop wasting your time on this thread if you havn't done something...that's my two cents....


----------



## visual (7 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Whilst there is criticism of aboriginal people receiving easier entry to university (this is alleged:  I don't know if it actually happens or not), I am all for this if it offers them any possibility of improving their lives through acquiring an education.  Then, on the basis that most people change their behaviour successfully through positive reinforcement rather than criticism,  the success of those few might then encourage others to follow the same path.  Some indigenous people are making their mark really successfully in professional and academic  areas and thus setting a great example for others.
> 
> Julia




Julia,you`ll find that when the kids fill in their subject selection forms for further education,theres a section where you can be considered for a scholarship,on the basis of aboriginality,or if your family has been receiving welfare ect,you actually have to fill in the form and justify how as a welfare recipient or as an aborigine, you have missed out on a chance to do your best ,achieving the relevant score for the subject that you want to take up at tafe or university.Of course if you are aboriginal and on welfare the chances that you qualify are doubled.


----------



## Happy (17 August 2006)

ABC said:
			
		

> From ABC August 17, 2006
> APY Lands families 'hungry 3 days a week'
> 
> Families are allegedly going without food for three days a week in the far north of South Australia because of the extreme cost of food in the area.
> ...




Maybe food vouchers, or just tickets to feeding canteens and probably washing canteens can be given instead of ‘sit down money’.
This way alcoholic and/or drug adict parents cannot siphon money to support their habit.


----------



## rederob (17 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Julia,you`ll find that when the kids fill in their subject selection forms for further education,theres a section where you can be considered for a scholarship,on the basis of aboriginality,or if your family has been receiving welfare ect,you actually have to fill in the form and justify how as a welfare recipient or as an aborigine, you have missed out on a chance to do your best ,achieving the relevant score for the subject that you want to take up at tafe or university.Of course if you are aboriginal and on welfare the chances that you qualify are doubled.



Julia
I have been otherwise indisposed and not put the response here that I would have liked.
Nevertheless, the key issue here relates to "disadvantage" per se.  If there are folk that post to this site and contended that Aboriginal Australians are not disadvantaged, then please present your case.
I am amused by people who tell everyone how good things are for our indegenous folk because they have incredible advantages over us???
Clearly, if they were so "advantaged" their wealth, power and influence would show up everywhere.
Regretably, all we see and hear are horror stories of poverty, neglect, abuse, and continuing disadvantage.


----------



## Julia (17 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> Julia
> I have been otherwise indisposed and not put the response here that I would have liked.
> Nevertheless, the key issue here relates to "disadvantage" per se.  If there are folk that post to this site and contended that Aboriginal Australians are not disadvantaged, then please present your case.
> I am amused by people who tell everyone how good things are for our indegenous folk because they have incredible advantages over us???
> ...





Rederob

I think my question to you was not whether or not indigenous people are advantaged or disadvantaged, but rather - given your criticism of so many  comments  posted on this thread about aboriginal people, and your obvious familiarity with aboriginal communities and how they function - how you think some of the problems could be fixed, e.g. alcohol abuse, domestic violence, sexual assault, unemployment etc etc etc.

Your comment above doesn't address this at all.

Regards

Julia


----------



## rederob (17 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Rederob
> I think my question to you was not whether or not indigenous people are advantaged or disadvantaged, but rather - given your criticism of so many  comments  posted on this thread about aboriginal people, and your obvious familiarity with aboriginal communities and how they function - how you think some of the problems could be fixed, e.g. alcohol abuse, domestic violence, sexual assault, unemployment etc etc etc.
> Your comment above doesn't address this at all.
> Regards
> Julia



Julia
It's not a tall order!
I have the solution somewhere, and am sure to find it soon.
But am off to earn another bob now and will keep this on the backburner.
Bye for now....


----------



## nioka (17 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Some time ago on this thread when a similar claim was made about the extra privileges available to Aborigines, I asked the contributor (can't remember who it was now) just exactly what these extra privileges were.  I asked because I simply don't know whether this often made suggestion is actually true or not.  Perhaps they do get extra benefits.  If so what are they?
> 
> And now again we have Mista repeating the suggestion.  So, Mista, could you be specific as to just what you are referring to and then we might all be wiser.  Or, alternatively, are you just perpetuating another myth?
> 
> Julia



How is this for fact. There is a "sacred" water hole at chinamens beach near Evans Head that is actually the water hole left behind by a sand mining dredge. The area is so sacred that it can only be viewedfrom a board walk. The mining was done in the 1950's. My step father dug the original hole using a dragline and the that hole was at the other end of the beach. The beach was mined with a barge and when the barge was removed the water hole was left. The area is restricted to "whiteys" as I was told once.


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## rederob (17 August 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> How is this for fact. There is a "sacred" water hole at chinamens beach near Evans Head that is actually the water hole left behind by a sand mining dredge. The area is so sacred that it can only be viewedfrom a board walk. The mining was done in the 1950's. My step father dug the original hole using a dragline and the that hole was at the other end of the beach. The beach was mined with a barge and when the barge was removed the water hole was left. The area is restricted to "whiteys" as I was told once.



I am sure there are other similar and "true" examples.
The  problem is that very few "traditional owners" are now around to give a valid history, and there are always some folk who will "do a number" on the gullible "whiteys".
How dumb were we for not investigating how the hole got there in the first place?????
There is still a person trying to prevent "Coon's Cheese" from using that name, despite Edward Coon creating that cheese type 70 years ago!
I don't think there is a cure for stupidity, but maybe someone, someday, will find that gene swimming uselessly around in the big gene pool and drown it!


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## Kauri (17 August 2006)

ABC said:
			
		

> From ABC August 17, 2006
> APY Lands families 'hungry 3 days a week'
> 
> Families are allegedly going without food for three days a week in the far north of South Australia because of the extreme cost of food in the area.
> ...




What a load of misleading rubbish...  do these consultants/politicians check the facts before before opening their mouths!!!!


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## Julia (17 August 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> What a load of misleading rubbish...  do these consultants/politicians check the facts before before opening their mouths!!!!




Kauri

What exactly are you saying is a "load of misleading rubbish"?
i.e. the fact that the people "can't afford to buy food"  or  that "they receive around $1000 per week in social security payments"?

Julia


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## Kauri (18 August 2006)

Julia...
            Families in the Pit lands and surrounding areas are indeed going without food but it has nothing to do with the _extreme_ cost of food. $3 a piece of fruit, maybe he was buying bananas, typically an apple, orange, pear, etc costs 50c, as do spuds, onions etc, and only because those who run the stores charge in 50c increments for all items, (incidentally you won't see any scales in any store.)
            $48 million to to make the stores more like Coles and Woolies will lower the cost of food....how? Nganampa Health now helps manage 10 community stores in the north of S.A, with a total population of around 2500-3000 people spread between them, so I guess you could say each store services on average 300 people. How is a Coles or Woolies setup going to lower prices. Throwing $48 million at the "_perceived extreme cost"_ problem will do nothing. Get rid of the highly paid consultant, replace him with a purchasing officer, and use the bulk buying power of the 10 stores to purchase your food etc. Work out a deal with a trucking company, have them collect the stuff in the Alice or Adelaide and run it through to the communities, dry goods one week and freezer/chiller goods the next. That will help bring down prices, if you cross the border into W.A you will find the Ngaanyatjarra lands of the western desert do this, even to the extent of owning their own warehouse in Perth, incidentally their lands and distances dwarf those that the Nganampa Health are involved with, and with a smaller population to boot.
       One of the main reasons Nganampa Health is getting involved is that most of the stores are running at a loss! The store, fully fitted out and ready to run is given to the community when it starts up (so no rent), being a community store their are no taxes,the store managers pay is met by an ATSIC grant and any of the mob who work there are paid from CDEP (so no wage bill), the only overheads are electricity and plant repairs/maintainence, and there is no competition within usually a couple of hundred of kilometres. All goods, food, TV's, clothes, fridges, you name it, are sold on a cost plus system, so how do they run at a loss? And no, the mob rarely run the stores themselves, _store managers are hired from the city_, the only qualifications you need are that you don't mind working in a community in the central deserts. Maybe instead of a consultant a forensic fraud accountant would be more relevant! 
         Money being spent on alcohol and drugs, alcohol is a big problem in the town camps around Alice, drugs... hardly a problem. But what has that got to do with what he is talking about, namely the problems in the communities many hundreds of kilometres away anyway???
         And on a lighter note.... "May Weir days"??? .... Try Mayi Wiya  
 .. Mayi ..(My-e = food).      
....Wiya ..(Wee-ah =no).


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## macca (18 August 2006)

Hi Kauri,

Interesting post.

Can we have more examples of how the situation can be improved from within and how do we, or the government expand the number of communities helping themselves.


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## Happy (19 August 2006)

> August 18, 2006
> Drug-runners target Indigenous communities
> 
> A new report shows sophisticated drug-running networks are making handsome profits by inundating remote Indigenous communities with cannabis.
> ...





If there were no demand, supply would drop of too.

Cannabis is considered by general public as non-addictive recreational substance.
Years will be needed to change this perception.


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## rederob (19 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> If there were no demand, supply would drop of too.



Actually, if there was no SUPPLY there could be no demand.
As I am part of the general public, I don't know where you got the impression that I thought cannabis is considered as a "non-addictive recreational substance".
I regard it as a harmful drug that has serious impacts on long term users and, like alcohol, the potential to give users a false sense of their own faculties.
The fact that most drug users are affluent white people will mean nothing to you, will it, Happy?


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## Julia (19 August 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Julia...
> Families in the Pit lands and surrounding areas are indeed going without food but it has nothing to do with the _extreme_ cost of food. $3 a piece of fruit, maybe he was buying bananas, typically an apple, orange, pear, etc costs 50c, as do spuds, onions etc, and only because those who run the stores charge in 50c increments for all items, (incidentally you won't see any scales in any store.)
> $48 million to to make the stores more like Coles and Woolies will lower the cost of food....how? Nganampa Health now helps manage 10 community stores in the north of S.A, with a total population of around 2500-3000 people spread between them, so I guess you could say each store services on average 300 people. How is a Coles or Woolies setup going to lower prices. Throwing $48 million at the "_perceived extreme cost"_ problem will do nothing. Get rid of the highly paid consultant, replace him with a purchasing officer, and use the bulk buying power of the 10 stores to purchase your food etc. Work out a deal with a trucking company, have them collect the stuff in the Alice or Adelaide and run it through to the communities, dry goods one week and freezer/chiller goods the next. That will help bring down prices, if you cross the border into W.A you will find the Ngaanyatjarra lands of the western desert do this, even to the extent of owning their own warehouse in Perth, incidentally their lands and distances dwarf those that the Nganampa Health are involved with, and with a smaller population to boot.
> One of the main reasons Nganampa Health is getting involved is that most of the stores are running at a loss! The store, fully fitted out and ready to run is given to the community when it starts up (so no rent), being a community store their are no taxes,the store managers pay is met by an ATSIC grant and any of the mob who work there are paid from CDEP (so no wage bill), the only overheads are electricity and plant repairs/maintainence, and there is no competition within usually a couple of hundred of kilometres. All goods, food, TV's, clothes, fridges, you name it, are sold on a cost plus system, so how do they run at a loss? And no, the mob rarely run the stores themselves, _store managers are hired from the city_, the only qualifications you need are that you don't mind working in a community in the central deserts. Maybe instead of a consultant a forensic fraud accountant would be more relevant!
> ...




Thanks for explaining that, Kauri.  Why am I not surprised?  I just wasn't sure whether you were suggesting that $1000 p.w. in social security was "misleading rubbish" and was going to correct that!  Lots of families on Centrelink benefits are in a healthier financial position than families where there's a working parent and I get pretty irritated about that.

Julia


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## Julia (19 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> If there were no demand, supply would drop of too.
> 
> Cannabis is considered by general public as non-addictive recreational substance.
> Years will be needed to change this perception.




Happy

Can I suggest that you don't hold your breath while waiting for any perception of cannabis as being non-harmful to change.

Julia


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## Duckman#72 (19 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Cannabis is considered by general public as non-addictive recreational substance.




I think I know what you had for "breakie" Happy.

You must be talking about *General Public*, the comedian and pro-drugs campaigner.


----------



## Kauri (19 August 2006)

Macca said:
			
		

> Hi Kauri,
> 
> Interesting post.
> 
> Can we have more examples of how the situation can be improved from within and how do we, or the government expand the number of communities helping themselves.




Hi Macca..
                   How the situation can be improved from within...  well, for instance a lot of statements have been sprouted in the press about the social and health problems caused by petrol sniffing in remote communities, and a lot of calls made by support agencies for large chunks of funding for various studies and programmes to help address the problem.
                    Is sniffing a problem... yes, large gangs of sniffing youths are  causing mayhem, and a lot of them are subsequently dying in their late 20's from the effects of years of sniffing.
                    Will funding for studies/programmes help...NO..not initially in many cases. (apart from providing work for a lot of social workers). First step, from within, don't sell petrol in the communities!!! Who can make this descision, only the communities themselves. Dollar cost involved. exactly none. By the way, if anyone has driven the Central road from Laverton (W.A) to the rock in the territory in a petrol car then from east of Laverton until you hit the border at Docker River you will have been running on non-sniffable avgas. Is sniffing a problem in these areas, yes, but nothing like what you see and hear about in the press. For some strange reason that seems to escape the people calling for study/programme funding, not having a 20,000 litre tank of sniffable petrol in the middle of the affected communities has an immediate affect that they would not be able to achieve before the next dreamtime. 

                  By the way, I see another study that has been quoted in the press and posted here...

   "_The report says drugs in remote communities fetch up to 50 times the going rate_".
                  Can some one explain to me how people who are on "sit-down money" (CDEP... really the dole with a component built in to allow for the costs of remote living... a smart political renaming move which slashed the official unemployment figures by many thousands overnight. ), how they afford to pay 50 times the going rate for drugs . (If the price of dope in the city went up 50 times can someone tell me how people on unemployment with _no access to any other money_ would afford it?). I suspect that what he is referring to is the fact that some enterprising locals in communities where petrol is not available do make the run of hundreds of kilometres to where petrol is available and bring back a jerry can, which they then sell off in coke-bottle lots at around $20 a bottle. Is petrol a drug, I guess so, but the way this report is presented everyone draws the conclusion that dope is involved. But hey, let the press sensationalise it, let it run for a while and and we will willingly throw $48 million at fixing another perceived problem. 
               Palya.


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## rederob (19 August 2006)

Kauri
Julia has asked me to present my ideas on *solving * some of the problems that have been posted here.
I think your more hands on experience lends itself better to give answers than me.
The major impediment I see is that we, as a "governement", need to be seen as treating all its subjects equally.
So we give "sit down" money because there really are no jobs in these communities that the money is supposed to allow the job seeker to search for!
Then we call it CDEP and try to make some useful work for some part of the community, some of the time.
It's akin to trying to treat cancer with panadol; might reduce the pain, but not the suffering.

Here's a test for the great unwashed
Who is the federal Minister responsible for aboriginal matters?
Why do we *not * have a federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs?
Which body makes decisions for funding initiatives for the betterment of aboriginals?
How do aboriginals choose the NIC? (or, what is the NIC?)
Is it true that the NIC can only "provide advice"?
How many (of the 30) managers of Indigenous Coordination Centres (ICC) identify as indigenous?


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## Julia (19 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> Kauri
> Julia has asked me to present my ideas on *solving * some of the problems that have been posted here.
> I think your more hands on experience lends itself better to give answers than me.
> The major impediment I see is that we, as a "governement", need to be seen as treating all its subjects equally.
> ...




What is Mal Brough's role if he is not Minister for Indigenous Affairs?

What is NIC?

Julia


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## visual (19 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> What is Mal Brough's role if he is not Minister for Indigenous Affairs?
> 
> What is NIC?
> 
> Julia



Julia,you why why I love Joe?
because he taught me how to do  search and paste : 
Anyway ,there it is,




http://www.oipc.gov.au/nic/default.asp


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## rederob (19 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> What is Mal Brough's role if he is not Minister for Indigenous Affairs?
> 
> What is NIC?
> 
> Julia



The Hon Mal Brough MP is the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs.
Portfolio overview
The Department of Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs provides policies, income support and assistance for families and their children, senior citizens, people with disabilities, carers and community groups. The Office for Women provides policies and programs for women and the Office for Indigenous Policy Coordination coordinates a whole-of-government approach to programs and services for Indigenous Australians.

The Minister's latest Act is to turn aboriginals into fair dinkum mortgage holding citizens with loans that they will never pay off.
That's progress!


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## Bobby (19 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> The Hon Mal Brough MP is the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs.
> Portfolio overview
> The Department of Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs provides policies, income support and assistance for families and their children, senior citizens, people with disabilities, carers and community groups. The Office for Women provides policies and programs for women and the Office for Indigenous Policy Coordination coordinates a whole-of-government approach to programs and services for Indigenous Australians.
> 
> ...



 Hey Rob it's me Bob,

Just need your opinion on this *Whats the cut of point of white people calling themselves Aboriginals ?* the  topic of this thread !

If you don't know, thats ok as I don't also.   

Bob.


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## Julia (19 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> The Hon Mal Brough MP is the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs.
> Portfolio overview
> The Department of Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs provides policies, income support and assistance for families and their children, senior citizens, people with disabilities, carers and community groups. The Office for Women provides policies and programs for women and the Office for Indigenous Policy Coordination coordinates a whole-of-government approach to programs and services for Indigenous Australians.
> 
> ...




Well then, Brough is the Minister for Indigenous Affairs.  Other Ministers hold more than one portfolio also.

Why are the aboriginals less likely to pay off their mortgages than any other Australian?  It is just this kind of perjorative comment, Rederob, that reinforces in the minds of indigenous people themselves and also in the minds of the rest of us, that indigenous people are so hopeless they will never do anything worthwhile.

If you genuinely have the interest of aboriginal people at heart, then you might start demonstrating some positive thoughts instead of rubbishing every suggestion or governmental initiative which is made.

You haven't come up with any suggestions for improving the lot of indigenous people.  You continue to comment on how disadvantaged they are, but completely fail to produce a single constructive suggestion for how their lives can be better.  Instead, you jump at the chance to pass the buck for these suggestions to Kauri who obviously does have genuine first hand experience of the living conditions of aboriginal people.

Like all of us, Rederob, you are absolutely entitled to your views.
However, you respond to comments and suggestions from others with derision and sarcasm.  May I suggest you withhold these responses until you can come up with some useful suggestions of your own.

Julia


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## bunyip (19 August 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Hi Macca..
> By the way, if anyone has driven the Central road from Laverton (W.A) to the rock in the territory in a petrol car then from east of Laverton until you hit the border at Docker River you will have been running on non-sniffable avgas.                Palya.




Why is avgas non-sniffable? Do you mean that if sniffed, it doesn't produce the same effects as petrol?
It certainly has a strong smell. Hundreds of times while pre-flight checking an aircraft, I've drained a small quantity of avgas out of the drain cocks under the wings and engine so as to inspect the sample for possible water contamination. The avgas always had a strong smell that made me feel slightly nauseous, even though I didn't actually sniff it as such.
Petrol fumes affect me the same way - I just can't stand the smell of the stuff. When refuelling my car at a servo I always try to stand on the upwind side of the fuel nozzle so as to avoid the smell. 
For the life of me I can't understand how someone can put his nose and mouth over a plastic bottle of petrol and deeply inhale the fumes. I couldn't do it - I'd be sick.

Bunyip


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## rederob (20 August 2006)

> Well then, Brough is the Minister for Indigenous Affairs.  Other Ministers hold more than one portfolio also



Yes.
It's a toothless portfolio - to coordinate input in respect of how indigenous matters are accommodated within massive portfolios that are not focussed on their specific needs.
Unless the other departments have a portfolio allocation specific to indigenous needs, worthwhile projects just do not happen.


> Why are the aboriginals less likely to pay off their mortgages than any other Australian?



Because the majority living in aboriginal communities don't have jobs within the confines of the community!
That's because there are very few jobs, and most full time workers are governement employees on term appointments, such as health workers, teachers and police.
Isn't the real question that needed answering that of why ownership of the land needs to be similar to white-man's laws than traditional aboriginal concepts of ownership?

Julia, did you listen to federal parliament debate the issues surrounding the amended Land Rights Act?
I listened to a great deal of it - and it's freely available in Hansard.  There are some sensible provisions within the Act, and other provisions which remain contentious.

It would be presumptious of me to think I can propose the solutions to a few centuries of aboriginal mistreatment and neglect in this forum.

I have instead chosen, in the main, to question those who clearly have little understanding of indigenous issues.  While as a child I lived in a number of towns where white people were the minority, that was some time ago. My stint in ATSIC ended some 15 years ago.  I suspect Kauri's experiences are more recent and more profound.

Kauri realises (I think) that white people really don't know what indigenous people need: They know.

ATSIC gave indigenous people a political voice, money and power.  Unfortunately politicians believed they had got too far ahead of themselves, and the coalition chopped off ATSIC's head, and then killed off the creature.  
Like it or not, ATSIC was a major tool of empowerment, and began to give indigenous people a feeling they had their own representatives who understood their needs, and were able to do positive things for their betterment.

I challenge anyone to nominate an indigenous person today who has the power to make things happen, as distinct from offer advice.

So, in terms of *me * offering constructive advice, reconstitute an organisation similar to ATSIC. Return to indigenous people a knowledge that those who are helping them have first listened to them, to their needs, and can empathise with them.  More importantly, let indigenous people know that their needs will not be overlooked because of ........ (insert every excuse under the sun here). Where "responsibility" is conferred, ensure that those entrusted with it (especially in matters financial) are adequately trained, or professionally supported, so that claims of misdirection or misappropriation are mitigated.

Where we are aware of actions that are detrimintal to community standards, such as alcohol abuse, petrol sniffing and the like, legislate penalties that are likely to prevent all but the most desperate from breaking the law.  Again, it's vital that such laws are supported by stringent policing; including policing that has a predominant community bias.  Additionally, ensure the capacity of "outsiders" to adversely affect communities is totally removed, rather than pay lip service to "policies".

That's enough on that one coz it's late.

Bob, people who identify as indigenous and are accepted as such within their respective communities can be whatever colour they like.  Aboriginality has very little to with colour, and a lot to do with culture.


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## Bobby (20 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Bob, people who identify as indigenous and are accepted as such within their respective communities can be whatever colour they like.  Aboriginality has very little to with colour, and a lot to do with culture.



 Hey Rob,
Did you know there are no checks on some who tick the  " box " so as to get or not pay    at the cost of real aboriginals .

Bob.


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## rederob (20 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hey Rob,
> Did you know there are no checks on some who tick the  " box " so as to get or not pay    at the cost of real aboriginals .
> 
> Bob.



Bob
Most times the box is ticked it just means some data is collected, a bit like me or you ticking a box on a form about our "citizenship".
I can only tell you that the sector I work in requires more than a box to be ticked if governement monies are to flow for supplementary assistance.  In fact most of the the people I come across that are identifiably "aboriginal" tick the box only after they are assured that it means they will not be treated any different from anyone else. 
I work mainly in the greater Brisbane region, where employment and training opportunities are screaming out to be filled.  And where, by and large, I see little racism from employers so long as a person is keen to do a fair day's work.


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## bunyip (20 August 2006)

In this debate/discussion about the aboriginal problem, one question remains unanswered..........WHY DON'T ABORIGINES TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF EVERY AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY TO BETTER THEMSELVES?

They have access to full education, job training, you name it....the opportunities to better themselves are available to them, but unless they take advantage of those opportunities they'll never rise above their present circumstances.
The main difference between people who achieve something worthwhile and those who don't, is frequently the attitude of the individual.
The aboriginal people who have become doctors, lawyers, teachers etc, are living proof that with the right attitude, a person can get ahead regardless of his skin colour. 
Unfortunately, the right attitude is hard to find among aboriginal people. 
I am completely at a loss to explain why this is, or how you go about changing their attitude.
But the one thing I do know is that aborigines with the right attitude can achieve just as highly as anyone else. 

Bunyip


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## Julia (20 August 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> In this debate/discussion about the aboriginal problem, one question remains unanswered..........WHY DON'T ABORIGINES TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF EVERY AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY TO BETTER THEMSELVES?
> 
> They have access to full education, job training, you name it....the opportunities to better themselves are available to them, but unless they take advantage of those opportunities they'll never rise above their present circumstances.
> The main difference between people who achieve something worthwhile and those who don't, is frequently the attitude of the individual.
> ...




Bunyip

I agree.  I also believe that on the whole people behave pretty much as we expect them to behave.  That is not as simplistic as it sounds.  If for eons you hear that you are useless, uneducable, lazy drunks, inescapably bred to be violent, then the chances are that this is how you will think of yourself.
It's more or less the reverse of positive reinforcement where, when we bring up children (or train dogs for that matter) we teach the behaviour we want not so much by punishing the undesirable acts but by heaping praise and offering encouragement when the child does what we want.

And then there is the intra-community issue of role models.  Your children have grown up to be reasonable people because you and your wife modelled appropriate behaviour.  If you'd constantly fought in drunken rages, belted each other and the kids up, you know those children would grow up to believe that was the norm and behave similarly.

Ditto multigenerational welfare.

I agree to some extent with Rederob's comments about having an ATSIC like organisation but with different personnel than were attached to the previous body.  Role models they were not.

It is, I think, very difficult for governments to strike the right balance in managing indigenous affairs between encouraging self management and paternalism.  Always, someone will be unhappy and critical.

Julia


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## nioka (20 August 2006)

Redirob wants to know of one individual who has the power to help. Each aboriginal has the power to help themselves. They are not the only ones having it hard. My father died when I was three.( seventy one years ago and during the depression. ) No social security as there is now with extra for aboriginals. I had to leave school as sonn as I was old enough. At the age of 9 I delivered milk twice a day before and after school and at weekends. 
 At 25 I went back to school and at 45 I went to uni. 

I had the power to help myself. So have they. Enough said.


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## rederob (20 August 2006)

bunyip
No disrespect, but does being a doctor or a lawyer mean one has bettered oneself.
In a culture where "respect" means something and financial wealth has traditionally meant nothing, why aspire to white-man's desires?

It is also mischievous to suggest all aborigines have every opportunity to achieve whatever they want.  Have a look at the standard of education, health and housing in remote communities, and then tell me how it stacks up to your experience. Then tell me what employment and training opportunities are available in these communities.
For aboriginals to achieve in keeping with white-man's aspirations requires that they leave their communities.  That means them having to leave their familities, travel often thousands of kilometres from home, at great cost, and try and make a new "home" away from home.  
Listen to some of our incredibly gifted aboriginal footballers (any code) tell of what they had to endure just to play a game they loved.  You begin to get an understanding of what it takes to leave their families and their tribal lands.
We seem to want to keep judging aborigines against our white-man's standards.  Are we so culturally superior?
Aborigines were proud custodians of Australia for thousands of years before white people came along.  And in a matter of a few hundred years exactly what have we done to live harmoniously and respectfully of them and their cultures?

Julia may be critical of some of my comments, but the reality is that we have a continuum of "aboriginality": From those that one would not "identify" in the street, to those that speak English as a second language and have never left their remote community.
There is no "one size fits all" solution to the myriad of issues that confront indigenous people.  Solutions need to be tailored to circumstances and sympathetic to needs.


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## rederob (20 August 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> Redirob wants to know of one individual who has the power to help. Each aboriginal has the power to help themselves. They are not the only ones having it hard. My father died when I was three.( seventy one years ago and during the depression. ) No social security as there is now with extra for aboriginals. I had to leave school as sonn as I was old enough. At the age of 9 I delivered milk twice a day before and after school and at weekends.
> At 25 I went back to school and at 45 I went to uni.
> 
> I had the power to help myself. So have they. Enough said.



nioka
Yours is a wonderful story, and you should be rightfully proud.
In an aboriginal community (and I should add a "funcional" one rather than a dysfunctional one), what happened to you simply could not have occurred due to the aboriginal concept of "family".


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## Kauri (20 August 2006)

Hi Bunyip..
                    Avgas is sniffable, but the % of aromatics is so low that that you get the headache without the high, unlike "super", where you get both. One fuel company has recently brought out _Opal _brand fuel which is now being used in communities instead of avgas, I think it is basically avgas without the high lead content.


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## rederob (20 August 2006)

> I agree to some extent with Rederob's comments about having an ATSIC like organisation but with different personnel than were attached to the previous body. Role models they were not.



Let's see.
The Chairmen of ATSIC were:
* Lowitja O'Donoghue 1990-96
* Gatjil Djerrkura 1996-2000
* Geoff Clark 2000-2004
Additionally, there were 35 regional councils, with elected regional representatives.
Clark may not have been the role model white people liked, but he stuck up for his people.  Unfortunately personal politics took its toll and media attention focussed on Clark's other indiscretions, which were great tabloid news stories.  When the government sacked Clark he took them to the Federal Court, and he won!  But they kept at him until they eventually neutered Clark and then abolished ATSIC.
Behind the scenes a lot of great work continued to be done.  However, ATSIC never really had the teeth it needed to work better for its constituents.
Federal departments continued to be resentful of what ATSIC was able to achieve, and actively stymied their projects where they had greater legislative, financial or policy powers.  Federal Ministers were more concerned about image than reality and had no interest in making ATSIC into a better organisation if they perceived its leadership (Clark) as a liability.
Anyone seriously interested in what could have been done, and the opportunity lost, should read this:
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/social_justice/submissions/atsic_review.html


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## bunyip (20 August 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Hi Bunyip..
> Avgas is sniffable, but the % of aromatics is so low that that you get the headache without the high, unlike "super", where you get both. One fuel company has recently brought out _Opal _brand fuel which is now being used in communities instead of avgas, I think it is basically avgas without the high lead content.




OK - thanks for the explanation.

Bunyip


----------



## bunyip (20 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> No disrespect, but does being a doctor or a lawyer mean one has bettered oneself.




Yes it does, compared to what those same aborigines would have achieved if they hadn't taken advantage of their educational opportunities.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> In a culture where "respect" means something and financial wealth has traditionally meant nothing, why aspire to white-man's desires?




Because by doing so, they have the opportunity of rising above their present circumstances and leading a far more fulfilling and worthwhile life than those who stay in the aboriginal settlements and decend into drunkenness, violence and sexual abuse.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> It is also mischievous to suggest all aborigines have every opportunity to achieve whatever they want.




Bull****. Education is available to aborigines just as it is available to white people, and is the first stepping stone to them rising above their present circumstances. If they complete their education, career opportunities are available to them. Some of them take full advantage of their opportunities and as a result make something of themselves. Unfortunately they are in the minority.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Have a look at the standard of education, health and housing in remote communities, and then tell me how it stacks up to your experience.




The standard of housing in aboriginal towns that I've visited is better than some of the houses I've lived in myself.

If aborigines or you or anyone else think they worthy of better homes then maybe they should stop wrecking the ones they already have. It's understandable that governments are reluctant to provide excellent houses if they're just going to get wrecked by the occupants.

Apart from that, some would question why aborigines should be provided with free housing. Nobody ever provided me with a free house.

As far as healthcare goes, it's available to them free of charge, and without them having to travel hundreds of kilometres to get it.

I lived in remote areas myself. Nobody ever provided me with free healthcare.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Then tell me what employment and training opportunities are available in these communities.




Do some research to find out the answers for yourself. I don't have specific answers for you. What i do know is that government has work and educational programmes aimed at getting aboriginal people out of their rut and into the workforce. What I also know is that these programs have worked quite well for the people who've taken advantage of them. The problem is that these people are in the minority.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> For aboriginals to achieve in keeping with white-man's aspirations requires that they leave their communities.  That means them having to leave their familities, travel often thousands of kilometres from home, at great cost, and try and make a new "home" away from home.




So? It's their choice. Either they can get up and go to leave home so as to better themselves, or they can stay put and run the risk of becoming derelicts.

Many white people also have to leave home for educational and career opportunities. There was no secondary school education available where I grew up, so I had to go to boarding school 200km from home.

One of my kids attends a university 1700km from home. As a white person she pays for her education unlike the aboriginals who attend the same university.
Many white kids from remote areas don't have primary school available to them, and have to be educated through correspondence, school of the air, or boarding school.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Listen to some of our incredibly gifted aboriginal footballers (any code) tell of what they had to endure just to play a game they loved.  You begin to get an understanding of what it takes to leave their families and their tribal lands.




Listen to talented white kids from the bush who had to go to the cities to pursue careers in rugby and other sports. Ask them about the homesickness they had to endure, the difficulty of adjusting to city life which was so different to the bush environment they grew up in.

The problem of talented sportsmen from remote areas having to adjust to city  life is not confined to aboriginal sportsmen, as you seem to suggest. Sportsmen of any colour or race face the same problems.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> We seem to want to keep judging aborigines against our white-man's standards.  Are we so culturally superior?




It's not a question of being culturally superior. It's simply a matter of choosing what they want, and then doing whatever it takes to get it. If they wish to rise above their present circumstances and create better lives for themselves, then they have the opportunity of doing so. And yes, it will involve some changes and adopting white man's ways to some extent.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Aborigines were proud custodians of Australia for thousands of years before white people came along.  And in a matter of a few hundred years exactly what have we done to live harmoniously and respectfully of them and their cultures?




You keep harping about the raw deal that aborigines got at the hand of our European ancentors. Sure they got a rough deal, but that's not my fault or yours, and what happened back then can't be undone. We have to live in the present, not the past, and so do aborgines.

They're not getting a rough deal these days at the hands of white Australia. Quite the contrary in fact.... free housing, free education, free lots of things that are not free to white people. Opportunities laid on, but these opportunities can benefit them only if they take advantage of them. This is a simple fact that you can't seem to get through your head. If they want to rise above their present circumstances then they have to change their attitude. The first step in changing their attitide is to recognise and show some appreciation of the opportunities that are offered to them, and to take advantage of those opportunities.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Julia may be critical of some of my comments, but the reality is that we have a continuum of "aboriginality": From those that one would not "identify" in the street, to those that speak English as a second language and have never left their remote community.




Julia was fully justified in criticising you. On this thread your main aim seems to be to attempt to discredit just about everyone who says anything less than positive about aborigines, even when they're giving an accurate summary of the aboriginal situation. You're also critical of the attempts of government to help aboriginals, but you're not so adept at proposing viable solutions to the problem yourself.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> There is no "one size fits all" solution to the myriad of issues that confront indigenous people.  Solutions need to be tailored to circumstances and sympathetic to needs.




Well then, lets see you coming up with some sensible suggestions about how these solutions can be tailored to the circumstances and needs of aboriginal people, rather than constantly criticising the efforts that are being made.
As Nioka correctly pointed out, the people with the best opportunity of improing the lot of aborigines are the aborigines themselves.

Nobody is suggesting that the government is offering perfect solutions to the aboriginal problem but at least they're trying, and they deserve credit for doing so, rather than the constant criticism that you specialise in.
I'm going to take the liberty of borrowing Julia's words to give you exactly the same advice she gave you....

You respond to comments and suggestions from others with derision and sarcasm. May I suggest you withhold these responses until you can come up with some useful suggestions of your own.

Bunyip


----------



## Julia (20 August 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> Redirob wants to know of one individual who has the power to help. Each aboriginal has the power to help themselves. They are not the only ones having it hard. My father died when I was three.( seventy one years ago and during the depression. ) No social security as there is now with extra for aboriginals. I had to leave school as sonn as I was old enough. At the age of 9 I delivered milk twice a day before and after school and at weekends.
> At 25 I went back to school and at 45 I went to uni.
> 
> I had the power to help myself. So have they. Enough said.




Hello Nioka,

Thank you for describing your experience.  You are to be congratulated.  It can't have been easy.

Can you say what primarily motivated you to make the effort to achieve what you have?  

Was it a fundamental belief in yourself?  Encouragement from others?
A realisation that if you didn't achieve some educational qualifications you'd be for ever at "the bottom of the heap"?  The desire for a good quality of life/standard of living, as distinct from an existence on the dole?

Julia


----------



## rederob (20 August 2006)

bunyip
You put a good deal of effort into your reply.
Why should anyone on this site expect me to solve problems for aboriginals that have been insoluble for years, after tossing millions of dollars into them?
What solutions will you put up?
I have the personal joy of know I have already placed hundreds of indigenous people into employment and training programs.  I hope you can claim a similar achievement.
Apart from having a tertiary education that included studying aboriginal culture, my job requires I have a practical understanding of the issues that confront Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in the world of work.
I regularly work with aboriginal people, as peers and as clients.
I know that I am already "part of the solution", albeit a very, very small part.
I would dearly love you, bunyip, to find an aborigianl audience for your reply to me and see how well it goes down.
Then let's compare notes.


----------



## Julia (20 August 2006)

Just thinking about Nioka's comments regarding the effort he/she has made to acquire an education and achieve a better life, coming from the very disadvantaged situation of being a child in the Depression, is it reasonable to consider that some of the problem with aboriginal people (and white people in similar situations) could be that it's just too easy for them to accept passive welfare and make no attempt to change their situation?

Earlier generations had no welfare and relied on their own efforts to survive.

For this reason I absolutely support the government's "work for the dole" programme but even then it's immensely easy to drift out of this by saying there are two few jobs available in your area or you are too old/too young/too inexperienced to reasonably be expected to find a job, and then Centrelink says "oh well, never mind.  You can do some voluntary work instead."
So they are required to do a huge 16 hours of voluntary community work each week to contiinue qualifying for the dole.  This is usually manning the reception desk/answering the phone of some community organisation.

Such activity is possibly marginally useful to the organisation, but teaches the individual nothing about developing some initiative.

But were the government to get tougher with either indigenous people or white folk on this score, all the left wing bleeding hearts would be out in force screaming about lack of compassion etc.

Last week amongst many similar clients of the community organisation where I work was a 40 year old woman who wanted her rent paid because she had spent it all on a hit of heroin.

Do you think she should have received this money from the community organisation?

Julia


----------



## bunyip (21 August 2006)

rederob said:
			
		

> You put a good deal of effort into your reply.
> Why should anyone on this site expect me to solve problems for aboriginals that have been insoluble for years, after tossing millions of dollars into them?




I don't think anyone on this site seriously expects you to solve the aboriginal problem. But in view of your know-all attitude and the constant sniping, derision and sarcasm you direct at others on this thread who make comments and suggestions, it should come as no surprise when you're challenged to come up with better suggestions or solutions yourself.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> What solutions will you put up?




Perhaps we already have the solution, but the problem lies in getting mass acceptance of the solution.
I see certain parallels between the aboriginal problems, and the problem of obesity.
It's a proven fact that if obese people eat high water content foods like fruit and vegetables, consume very little fat, and exercise for thirty minutes each day, the weight falls off them. Pretty simple really. So why are there so many obese people if the solution is so simple? Simply because they don't take the responsibe action of actually following through on the solution that's available to them.

Similarly, it's a proven fact that education and employment training has made a huge difference in the lives aboriginal people who have taken advantage of these opportunities, and as a result are now placed in responsible jobs and careers that fulfill them and give them a decent future and a sense of purpose.
So why then are so many aboriginals still unemployed and living hopeless lives, if education and job training offers them a viable solution to their problems? Maybe part of the answer lies in the fact that, like obese people, too few of them are taking the responsible action of actually following through on the solution that's available to them.

To 'follow through' they need to grasp their opportunities with both hands. It's truly sad that so few of them are doing so. How do you get them to complete school, go to uni, enroll in job training programs? I really don't know, and nobody else seems to know either. Therein lies the problem. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can offer people wonderful opportunities but if they reject those opportunities then obviously it's difficult or impossible to help them. You can't help people who won't help themselves.
Increasing numbers of aboriginals are taking advantage of their opportunities, and many of them comment very positively about how their lives have changed for the better. There was a program about it on TV just the other night .......a group of young aboriginal men who joined an employment training program and now have jobs. Each and every one of them commented on how much better their lives were now, and how they had no desire to go back to their former lives of idleness and violence and boozing.
So maybe, bit by bit, the solutions are working, at least for a small number of people. Now we have to encourage increasing participation in the solutions.
You're the one, Rob, with experience in aboriginal affairs and culture and employment training programs. So let's hear your ideas on the best way to encourage young aboriginals to get involved. 



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> I have the personal joy of know I have already placed hundreds of indigenous people into employment and training programs. I hope you can claim a similar achievement.
> Apart from having a tertiary education that included studying aboriginal culture, my job requires I have a practical understanding of the issues that confront Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in the world of work.
> I regularly work with aboriginal people, as peers and as clients.
> I know that I am already "part of the solution", albeit a very, very small part.




Pleased to hear it. You see - you already have the solution well in hand. By placing hundreds of aboriginal people into training programs and employment you have immesurably improved their lives and their futures. Good to see you finally agreeing with my contention that education, job training and employment programs can go a long way towards providing a solution to the aboriginal problem.
My career path has taken me down a different road to you. I haven't had the opportunity of working with aboriginal people in the capacity that you mention. I have however, employed aboriginals personally, and my experience with them was mostly positive once I got them out of town, off the grog, and on to my property where I gave them a stubby every night, but did not allow them to bring grog with them on to my property. Also, I made a point of always picking them up from town, rather than letting them drive out to my place. If they had a car, they'd be off to the pub at night, then wouldn't turn up for work next day. I had that happen on a couple of occasions until I found a way around it.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> I would dearly love you, bunyip, to find an aborigianl audience for your reply to me and see how well it goes down.
> Then let's compare notes.




I know very well how it would go down. They'd strongly object to being told to start showing some responsibility. 
After years of being told that their predicament is the white mans fault (a myth which incidentally is perpetuated by people like yourself), they'd object strongly to being told that if they want to rise above their present circumstances, then they have to get off their backsides and start showing a bit of initiative by taking advantage of the opportunities of education and job programs that are available to them.

Bunyip


----------



## Happy (21 August 2006)

I wasn’t going to bring this up on this thread, but it is somewhat relevant.

Not long ago we’ve had another case of ‘severe neglect’ when child was kept locked up and had not developed speech or any social skills. Since I started viewing segment half way through, I don’t know if it was recent or re-heated story, but I didn’t see it before, but this bit is probably not as important.

Severe case I know, but proves several points.

1. If child is not given quality information and structured learning program early in life, child is not going to have knowledge base in place and learning later in childhood and adult life will be uphill struggle.

2. Person given free points for being disadvantaged will in fact or drop out of mainstream class or drag down the class. 
(There is no way to compress later, several years of early training when brain is like a sponge)

One can say heartless thing to say, but this happens over and over, when gifted children are wasted attending ‘mainstream’ class and do not develop their full potential.

Despite calls that we are all equal, we are not.
Some of us have better genetic make up; some have advantages fabricated by parents and environment.

But if you don’t and parents don’t provide you with platform to excel, you are hardly ever going to be a genius, but lets face it, we don’t need too many chiefs.


----------



## rederob (21 August 2006)

Julia
Several years ago I worked cooperatively with a company that placed aboriginal "foot patrols" in local communities in western Queensland.
Participants were paid a training wage and undertook off job training for a nationally recognised security industry qualification.
Despite outstanding results, quantitatively verifiable community benefits and high level ATSI support, we were unable to get ongoing funding, and the initiative was not financially supported so that we could roll it out to other communities.
Everybody connected with the original project felt badly let down, because *everyone * knew the difference it made at the time. 
I reckon that if similar projects were in place across Australia a lot of the recently aired problems might not have happened.

When you get involved in something that really works, and has incredible community benefits, and are somewhat let down afterwards, it does challenge you to wonder why you bother.

bunyip wonders why I am critical of many of the things that have happened, and continue to happen.  Having been there in the thick of it, and now being there on the perifery, I suspect I am better placed than most that post on this site (maybe with the exception of Kauri) to comment.  

With very few exceptions, there are not many people that have posted on this thread that have a clue about what really goes on in remote aboriginal communities.  So do yourselves a favour and go and see "Ten Canoes" if it is showing at a cinema near your (or get on video later on).  Unfortunately it's not representative of central Australian communities, but at least you get a better idea about "culture" without all the issues that this thread has raised.


----------



## nioka (21 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Hello Nioka,
> 
> Thank you for describing your experience.  You are to be congratulated.  It can't have been easy.
> 
> ...



Motivation 1. Got married, had kids and needed to make more money.
               2. Was farming had a bad drought and needed to get the banks off my back.
               3. Whitlam gave out free UNI education at the same time he increased our interest payments on a farm loan so one offset the other.
               4. Malcom Frazer reminded me life wasn't meant to be easy.
               5 My good wife says I am a workaholic ( at74 I'm still working.)


----------



## nioka (21 August 2006)

P.S. for reply to Julia.
 I never meant I had a HARD life. It wasn't all that hard and it has certainly has been eventful. I just advise anyone to get stuck in and have a go. No one will do it for you.


----------



## Julia (21 August 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> P.S. for reply to Julia.
> I never meant I had a HARD life. It wasn't all that hard and it has certainly has been eventful. I just advise anyone to get stuck in and have a go. No one will do it for you.




Thanks, Nioka.  Great reply.

Julia


----------



## Happy (22 August 2006)

> August 22, 2006
> Boredom, neglect fuelled Woorabinda riot, mayor says
> Aboriginal leaders say a group of up to 40 youths went on a violent rampage in a central Queensland Indigenous community because they were bored and neglected by their parents.
> Investigations are continuing this morning into the cause of the riot in the Woorabinda community, west of Rockhampton, after the trouble flared late on Sunday night.
> ...




Yes we don’t know how hard it is to live in remote community and how boring.

I wander what other excuses elders can come up when this one wears out.


----------



## Happy (22 August 2006)

> From ABC August 22, 2006
> Minister blames parents for Woorabinda riot
> 
> 
> ...




Not reported earlier, maybe should not be reported at all?

Opposition really asks government to make purpose of life for young people.
Again, absolutely no effort required from individuals involved.

They will just sit back on sit down money and point out that this is bad and that’s worse and that they have no purpose in life.

I might say, another circle is closed and it will run in circles and who knows what will be the end effect?


----------



## Julia (22 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Not reported earlier, maybe should not be reported at all?
> 
> Opposition really asks government to make purpose of life for young people.
> Again, absolutely no effort required from individuals involved.
> ...




Should their dole money be made conditional on them doing something constructive instead of just passively finding it in their bank accounts?

Julia


----------



## bunyip (22 August 2006)

August 22, 2006 
Boredom, neglect fuelled Woorabinda riot, mayor says
Aboriginal leaders say a group of up to 40 youths went on a violent rampage in a central Queensland Indigenous community because they were bored and neglected by their parents.
Investigations are continuing this morning into the cause of the riot in the Woorabinda community, west of Rockhampton, after the trouble flared late on Sunday night.
Details about the incident were not released to the media until last night. 
As many as 40 youths, aged between 11 and 15, damaged the police station, the primary school, work sheds, a small shop and other buildings. 
When police arrived, their car was pelted with rocks, bottles and sticks. 
Police enlisted the help of elders and community leaders to end the riot.
The police have identified 34 of those allegedly involved. 
Sixteen have been arrested and charged, some have been released, and a number are being held in custody in Rockhampton until the matter is fully investigated. 
The Mayor of Woorabinda, Roderick Tobane, says the motive for the incident appears to be boredom.
He says parents need to take more responsibility for their children. 
He says the kids are frustrated by a lack of facilities in the community and their parents are not helping.
"They weren't drunk, they are just bored, being neglected. There is a handful of them that are being neglected," he said.
"They are not getting the right care and love that they need."
He says there is no major damage to community infrastructure.
"There is not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage," he said.
"It's just young fellows out on the street after 10:00pm, after 11:00pm, making life a misery for people who own services in the community, with the police as well.
"Apparently they ran and threw bricks through the window at the police station. It is just sheer boredom."


----------



## bunyip (22 August 2006)

Posted the above by mistake. Not sure how, must have clicked the button without realising it.

Bunyip


----------



## Happy (23 August 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Posted the above by mistake. Not sure how, must have clicked the button without realising it.
> 
> Bunyip





Not sure if I swallowed the bait, but at 9:43 – time of yours second post you still were in the window of opportunity to edit your previous post.

I think we have 15 or even 20 minutes to do that.


----------



## rederob (23 August 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Posted the above by mistake. Not sure how, must have clicked the button without realising it.
> 
> Bunyip



To be sure to be sure!


----------



## bunyip (26 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Not sure if I swallowed the bait, but at 9:43 – time of yours second post you still were in the window of opportunity to edit your previous post.
> 
> I think we have 15 or even 20 minutes to do that.




15 or 20 minutes to edit a post? Far as I knew, as soon as your post appears on the forum, which is almost immediately you post it, it's too late to withdraw or edit it.


----------



## Julia (27 August 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> 15 or 20 minutes to edit a post? Far as I knew, as soon as your post appears on the forum, which is almost immediately you post it, it's too late to withdraw or edit it.



Bunyip

When your new post appears first on the thread at the bottom of it there is a button which appears for, I think, around 15 minutes marked "Edit".  If you click on this you can either delete or alter the post you have just made.

Julia


----------



## bunyip (27 August 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Bunyip
> 
> When your new post appears first on the thread at the bottom of it there is a button which appears for, I think, around 15 minutes marked "Edit".  If you click on this you can either delete or alter the post you have just made.
> 
> Julia




OK, thanks Julia, I wasn't aware of that.

I've  been in Central and North Queensland for the last four days. In Rockhampton I read a story in the local paper that a 19 year old Woorabinda man had been convicted of selling petrol to the aboriginal kids who were involved in that riot and destruction of property. The 19 year old admitted he'd been supplying petrol to kids for some time, but the demand had become so great recently that he decided to set up a business by selling petrol for $5 for half a coke can full.
The rioters were high on petrol fumes. 
The 19 year old 'businessman' was told by the magistrate that "You are a disgrace to your people". He was fined $1500 and given 12 months to pay.

Cheers
Bunyip


----------



## bunyip (28 August 2006)

Landline program on ABC TV yesterday featured a mud crab farm at Darwin that was being run largely by aborigines.
These people are involved in a responsible enterprise that challenges and interests them, and gives them a decent future.

Attitude, more than any other factor, determines the sort of life that aborigines lead. The same can be said of white people or any other race.
Right attitude, decent lives. Wrong attitude, lousy lives.

Those crab farming aborigines are not wasting their time moaning about how they were dispossessed of their country 200 years ago. They're not sitting on their rear ends waiting for the next handout. They're not destroying themselves and their communities by boozing and sniffing petrol.

They're siezing with both hands the chance to improve themselves and make something of their lives.

I admire the people involved in that mud crab project....they're proof that aborigines can lead worthwhile lives if they have the right attitude and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.
If the same attitude could be instilled in all aborigines, their problems would largely be solved.

Bunyip


----------



## macca (28 August 2006)

Hi Bunyip,

Yep !! Agree 100%, a friend of mine who is on the local land council was telling me that they have started a kiosk at their premises to train the teens in hospitality.

They have also been able to get 15 teens a start with NPWS as ranger types.

I really do believe that influential members are starting to change the attitude within ATSIC etc and teach those that wish to learn, how to be part of modern society.

Most Aussies will happily help anyone that is seen to be "having a go" instead of the poor buggar me attitude.

There is hope, just needs to be encouraged and given some time.


----------



## Bobby (14 September 2006)

There was a story on the radio today about  Aboriginals who were given free transport from the N.T. to be employed last year to pick fruit, it went on to say that the older ones looked at the trees & fruit, talked to others, walked around, yet expected to get paid   

Did anyone else hear this?
like to know the full story.

Bob.


----------



## Alfredbra (14 September 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> August 22, 2006
> Boredom, neglect fuelled Woorabinda riot, mayor says
> Aboriginal leaders say a group of up to 40 youths went on a violent rampage in a central Queensland Indigenous community because they were bored and neglected by their parents.
> Investigations are continuing this morning into the cause of the riot in the Woorabinda community, west of Rockhampton, after the trouble flared late on Sunday night.
> ...




i live in far north QLD and just recently in my area here a small group also went out on the streets on what was described as a "early morning bashing" or something like that, where they walked the city area looking for anyone just to bash, several people were hospitalised one being only a young innocent boy riding a pushbike! they were apparantly bored.

Why is there any reason to do things like this?


----------



## dr00 (14 September 2006)

welcome to perth every day of the week. its not a problem if you dont admit it.  

its interesting when you look at for instance robert kennedy's approach to the problems the african americans had back before he was killed. he said just paying them extra money will only make the current problems worse and create new ones. instead of spending any money at all he went out and found large companies and gave them incentives to invest in the black peoples areas to create jobs and infrastructure that benefitted everyone. it worked well and the black people loved him to bits.

kind of reminds me of these cable barriers they are putting on the freeways all over perth now that were banned across europe for their danger to motorcyclists  but thats a whole different can of worms...


----------



## Happy (14 September 2006)

> From ABC, September 14, 2006. 6:00am (AEST)
> Beattie Cabinet changes anger Indigenous policy advocates
> 
> 
> ...





From above quote - 


> "It can be seen as a racist move because our voices are not being heard once again," she said.




So much for integration and is it clear who wants to be separate?

And if we are citizens of one Australia, why there has to be special treatment of any group of people?


----------



## Happy (21 September 2006)

> From ABC, September 21, 2006
> Perth native title claim 'won't affect residents'
> 
> 
> ...





If land was given for traditional purposes, it is only fair to assume that traditional hunting can be staged anywhere, even in the centre of Perth City.

Native title wasn’t given with clauses and exemptions, it was blank cheque and with the same breath comment is made that it doesn’t affect backyards of private owners.

Yes of course, until we have another judge’s interpretation.

Oh well we’ve seen strange judgements before, and all I have to do is somehow try to live my life out, after that it is out of my worries.


----------



## Happy (21 September 2006)

> From ABC, September 21, 2006
> Perth native title decision could have
> 'significant implications'
> 
> ...





looks that I am not alone with my suspicions of insignificance of the rulling.




> From above:
> 
> you could well find that if a native title were found to be a bona fide claim and lawful that means that native title owners would be able to exclude other people from access to those areas," he said.





At best non-aboriginal people might have to pay entry fee as to see Uluru, formerly also called Airs Rock.
Which is fine, but not for Australian citizens.

If Aboriginals are treated differently to other Australians, I see problem with that.

We urge for integration of others, but we simply cannot integrate with those who arrived here 30,000 years before us.


----------



## macca (21 September 2006)

Hi Happy,

At present it costs $25.00 to purchase a 3 day pass to the national park which contains Uluru and the Olgas, no pass, no entry, no Uluru


----------



## Happy (21 September 2006)

macca said:
			
		

> Hi Happy,
> 
> At present it costs $25.00 to purchase a 3 day pass to the national park which contains Uluru and the Olgas, no pass, no entry, no Uluru





You did not mention exemptions.

Omission, deliberately, or there aren’t any?


----------



## macca (21 September 2006)

No exemptions that I am aware of, probably only the aboriginal people that live within the park I suppose.


----------



## Happy (23 September 2006)

> From ABC, September 23, 2006
> Native title ruling boosts confidence over Adelaide claim
> 
> It is hoped last week's landmark court decision recognising native title over Perth will help the Kaurna people in Adelaide.
> ...





We’ve got Perth, Gold Coast, now Adelaide, looks like the gates are open.


----------



## macca (28 September 2006)

Hi all,

The attached link is in the paper today, hopefully this is a step forward for these communities. 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/how-intolerance-can-turn-the-tide/2006/09/27/1159337220004.html


----------



## Julia (28 September 2006)

macca said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> The attached link is in the paper today, hopefully this is a step forward for these communities.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/how-intolerance-can-turn-the-tide/2006/09/27/1159337220004.html




Thanks for posting that link, Macca.  Really interesting and so absolutely sensible.

If there were more indigenous leaders like Noel Pearson the aboriginal population would have more reason for hope.  However, his suggestions will probably be met with opposition from the ultra left who will brand the programme as paternalistic.  Well, imo, paternalistic is just what is needed at this stage.

Julia


----------



## Bobby (1 October 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting that link, Macca.  Really interesting and so absolutely sensible.
> 
> If there were more indigenous leaders like Noel Pearson the aboriginal population would have more reason for hope.  However, his suggestions will probably be met with opposition from the ultra left who will brand the programme as paternalistic.  Well, imo, paternalistic is just what is needed at this stage.
> 
> Julia



Hello Julia'

I did like your comments .
But watch the white aboriginals attack on Noel Pearson   

Bob.


----------



## Julia (2 October 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hello Julia'
> 
> I did like your comments .
> But watch the white aboriginals attack on Noel Pearson
> ...




Yes, Bob.  Sadly, you are probably right with that suggestion.

Julia


----------



## Happy (6 October 2006)

> From ABC, October 6, 2006
> No future for some Indigenous communities: Brough
> 
> The federal Indigenous Affairs Minister has signalled the Government believes there is no future in some remote Indigenous communities.
> ...





I thought about the crap people have to put up with ‘indigenous’ issues in Australia, Canada and USA

In Australia, our originals, on one hand want their –customary life style- preserved, but topped up with 4WD’s, top class services including medical support, and probably some kind of education vaccine or pill, as they are not too keen on new world school system.

I say, total crap, all the heritage culture is smoke and screen, to go forward everybody has to go forward, not only new-arrivals.

I don’t think –customary life style- few thousand years ago provided top class medical care, nor should be provided now.

You live your life with your trimmings, and you are welcome to live our life with our benefits, not the best of both.

Being equal goes both ways.


----------



## Happy (6 October 2006)

> From ABC , October 6, 2006
> Indigenous man sentenced to life for pregnant wife's murder
> 
> A 29-year-old man has been sentenced to life with a minimum of 19 years for murdering his pregnant wife at a remote Aboriginal community near Laverton in Western Australia.
> ...




To me it is excuse, after excuse.

On the other hand good to know that if you almost die after committing murder chances are that punishment will be lighter.

Bit of a worry if it will be applied with the same compassion to any other race Australian in race-less Australia.


----------



## Kauri (8 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> To me it is excuse, after excuse.
> 
> On the other hand good to know that if you almost die after committing murder chances are that punishment will be lighter.
> 
> Bit of a worry if it will be applied with the same compassion to any other race Australian in race-less Australia.




I agree, murder is murder and should be treated the same regardless of race. I certainly hope that the same compassion is shown for all murderers, colour not withstanding, and that none of them get out in less than 19 years. Alas, I suspect if you skim through the media however you may well find a lot of them, regardless of race,  getting out in far less time.
  Aaron did nearly die after his tribal punishment, traditionally he would have been left after the spearing and would have died alone, the only reason he survived was that we, via our justice/police system, stepped in and commuted his death sentence by bringing him in from the desert and treating him. As a result, if and when he eventually returns to his community he will basically not exist, he wont participate in community life, will not be acknowledged by anyone. In actual fact, truly a dead man walking. Not many people in Australia have thier punishment extend that far after thier release.
   The people from his region are in fact the most traditional of  our aboriginals, whilst Aaron was born in "relative civilisation" his father Charlie and his peers were born and grew up in the desert and actually lived traditionally the way they had for thousands of years, without interaction, the _benefits?_, or even knowledge of the white man. They were brought in during the 60's during a series of welfare patrols. People like Aaron have moved from the stone age to the space age in one generation, in his father Charlie Butlers case, in one lifetime. I don't think you will find they were making excuses, (maybe civilised lawyers were?), his people had pronounced a death sentence and had carried it out, until civilisation intervened. It seems that they take murder more seriously than we do? 
  For anyone interested, if you have Google earth try...  24, 20, 52.81 S,
                                        ......128, 42, 11.85 E.
   and zoom in, if you look closely you may see his "relatively civilised" community.


----------



## rederob (8 October 2006)

Happy
You appear to have missed the Goodes news items on aboriginal footballers, lately.
The sin of omission doesnt' carry a life sentence, or does it?


----------



## Happy (8 October 2006)

Omission or not, hard to follow every story out there, since you see more, care to top up?
Thread is open to anybody to contribute.

I’ll paraphrase a bit.
Aren’t we – other Australians- lucky that original Australians are not cannibals or that their rituals don’t conform to our fabric?

Spearing is bit out of –new- character, and somebody somewhere has to look the other way so we don’t have to respond to this as malicious wounding, and punish perpetrators.

In a sense I feel as a spectator, but this –movie- is for real, hope in a process all the land is not going to be given back to –first arrivals-, as I’ll end up paying 2 taxes, that’s all to it, MONEY.


----------



## rederob (8 October 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Omission or not, hard to follow every story out there, since you see more, care to top up?
> Thread is open to anybody to contribute.



Happy
You only seem to follow the "bad" news stories.
Given these fill our daily newspapers, mostly with errant white folk, how about you enlighten us to the real rip off merchants, or borrow from the regular guff on the 6.30pm exposes weekdays.
If it was about "money", as you suggest, how about naming a few indigenous millionaires.
I'll start with a nice white fella - Steve Vizard.


----------



## Happy (8 October 2006)

Must be habit from Stock Market, I seem to follow some formations more than others.

But again let me invite you to be the good news ambassador, or you just want to be the not-happy with what others post?


----------



## Happy (8 October 2006)

Being unable to name millionaires, not necessarily be that it only means that there is no money motif, it could also mean that there is demonstrated inability to manage money matters.

Accidentally there were some issues with money misappropriation in the past, but wouldn’t be too happy to talk about old news.


----------



## Happy (17 October 2006)

Came past this today - 




> From ABC , October 17, 2006
> Customary law should be considered in sentencing: Senate committee
> 
> A Government-dominated Senate committee has recommended sweeping changes to a proposal for cultural background or customary law to be ignored during the sentencing process for federal offences.
> ...





What struck me, actually what it really means and how ridiculous would it be if somebody these days decided to use the principle of  -traditional living-, heritage culture and all that stuff.

Say we have  –tradition-  of 3 generations of unemployment, and say they call it –traditional living-, their culture and their tradition.

They decide to -stop the clock- and fight for their rights to uphold their tradition.

Somebody might say how dare I say something like that and compare it to 30,000 or 40,000 years of tradition.
Sorry, but this is exactly the same just –slightly- different timeframe.

Effectively this is RIGHT TO STOP THE CLOCK.
And to be fair to all Australians, we all should go forward not just newcomers, and having special rights within so called country of equal rights doesn’t look too bright.


----------



## Happy (4 November 2006)

> From ABC, November 3, 2006
> 
> Indigenous leader calls for abandonment of 'cultural suicide'
> An Aboriginal traditional owner says Indigenous people are on a path of cultural suicide and need to accept some blame for the choices they have made.
> ...





Wisdom of vision only to be applauded, didn’t we all have to move forward.


----------



## Happy (11 December 2006)

> From ABC, December 11, 2006
> 
> Govts accused of ignoring Indigenous health crisis
> 
> ...





Yes, Government responsible for everything, individuals responsible for nothing.

But this type of story goes around the world.


----------



## tmallie (11 December 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Wisdom of vision only to be applauded, didn’t we all have to move forward.



I am Aboriginal and I work in the field of cultural heritage.  I have helped different indigenous communities here and overseas in the collection and recording of cultural information before it's lost forever.  

I believe that this is the key to giving future generations identity and pride in themselves and their culture which in turn lead hopefully to positive outcomes.

T


----------



## Happy (2 January 2007)

> From ABC, January 2, 2007
> 
> 
> WITNESSES COOPERATING WITH INDIGENOUS ABUSE TASK FORCE: ACC
> ...





A lot of finger pointing, but no cooperation


----------



## Julia (2 January 2007)

Happy said:
			
		

> A lot of finger pointing, but no cooperation



Happy,

Can you expand on what you mean here?  The article sounded to me as though co-operation was in fact being offered.

Julia


----------



## Happy (2 January 2007)

> "The first part is to get out there, to understand, to observe," he said.
> "Understanding will be built over a period of time and we're grateful for those who have given us the time, who have welcomed us to their land, to their country, to have the opportunity to sit with them for a while.




What is there to understand?
Talk is cheap, crime is crime


----------



## rederob (2 January 2007)

Happy said:
			
		

> What is there to understand?
> Talk is cheap, crime is crime



I'm sure the price of eggs will crop up soon!


----------



## Happy (8 January 2007)

> From ABC , January 7, 2007
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Quite amazing, but getting to this throw away comment - 




> the Corrections Act allows inmates with Aboriginal heritage to apply for day release to attend culturally significant events.





Hard not to suspect that there are different treatments depending on races in Australia,  , where everybody is equal.

Looks that some are more equal than others.


----------



## Happy (10 January 2007)

> From ABC, January 10, 2007
> 
> ARREST SPARKS RIOT IN CAPE YORK COMMUNITY
> 
> ...




From above article -



> The riot started after a man was arrested over an assault and fell ill while in police custody.





Hardly a legitimate reason, rather excuse to smash whatever has to do with law and order.


----------



## Julia (10 January 2007)

I don't mean to make too light of what's a serious problem, but there's a great cartoon in today's "Courier Mail" regarding the police officer who escaped the jaws of a croc yesterday.

It shows two aboriginal people sitting under a palm tree on an island, one reading a newspaper.  He says: "The croc had the policeman by the head and LET HIM GO??"   and the other replies:   "....one thing's for sure - it wasn't a Palm Island croc!"


Julia


----------



## Happy (10 January 2007)

Could be bad breath or bad smell if he soiled himself too, but going back to less light subject.



> From ABC, January 10, 2007
> 
> AURUKUN MAN CLAIMS ASSAULT IN CUSTODY
> 
> ...




Certain part makes similarity to another riot, where incorrect trigger might have been used [re-quoted below]



> "But I understand there was some minor injuries to the person that appear to be some 48-hours-old and may have occurred to him prior to his arrest.




And if true, is that trust thing not being manipulated?


----------



## Nicks (10 January 2007)

I've read about 5 pages of this thread.

Im sad now.

I see that racism is alive and kicking in my country. I never new it was so bad and so many people had so many negative views.

Dont respond please with arguments of handouts, australian, not fair, stereo types, learn to help themselves etc.  

I live in a big CBD like many of you. Travel to some of our rural regions and see the struggle these people have. Their whole way of life and culture has been turned upside down in 150 years. In this period, many of them have been born into these outback camps, towns etc. Thats about as good as their raising got, Not much education out there, especially if your family and friends were brought up in the same situation. 

Yeah the future looks bright for a 50yr old Aborignal person brought up in Cooper Peady, or Tenant Creek, or Katherine. Not! Oh but this person probably brought it on themself right?? yeah, sure, heaps good chance of making it successful.  Thats if they actually live to 50. Its not an individuals problem, but a society problem.

Yes there are a lot of problems with Aborignal Australia - does the fact that it is a consistent theme across the country give you people any indication that its not just a cuning individual desperate to take advantage of the system?? No there is an underlying problem that is generic and general. Thats why it is universally widespread. We cant give the country back to them, we need to share it, but we at least owe it to them to help with the problem (whatever it is).

Easy for us to comment isnt it! Its easy after we watch one episode of one facet of Aboriginal life problems on 60 Minutes. Now we are experts. How many white people trash houses and kitchens, probably more than you think, just doesnt end up on 60 mins. And why does this happen so much to Aboriginals? oh they like dirty kitchens. Could it be something to do with their education and way of life that we dont understand maybe?

You know, there are many groups in this country that get different treatment, disabled, single parents, the poor, migrants and all rightly so. As a white Australian I hope that we would do all we can to improve the social standing of our fellow Aborignal Aussies.


----------



## Rafa (10 January 2007)

Well said Nicks...


----------



## Ants (10 January 2007)

ditto


----------



## robert toms (10 January 2007)

One thing that I have found is that aboriginals are intimidated and cowed by the white population.I live in a town with a sizeable black population and I have lived in Port Augusta SA quite a few years back.I have aboriginal neighbours now.Unless there are genuine attempts to accept aboriginals in the workplace,and in a social settings,nothing will change.From what I see a lot of whites like to perpetuate their "superiority" and the black population are consequently alienated.
One of the double standards I have observed is that when people deride blacks for not wanting to work.They are not welcomed by workers in a lot of work places.Is that a catch 22 ?
Affirmative action by government and semi-government agencies,although of some use,will never change entrenched bad attitudes toward an underclass.The rot is abiding!


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## Julia (10 January 2007)

Nicks

Thanks for a great post which looks for some of the reasons behind the behaviour that receives, deservedly, considerable criticism.

I can't help feeling that much of the problem lies with leadership on both "sides".  If someone like Noel Pearson with his undoubted insight and wisdom could work with government (which I believe he has sincerely tried to do) and governments could relinquish their patronising and paternalistic attitude to indigenous people, some genuine progress could be made.
But perhaps not, given the rigid attitudes of some of us who will always see aboriginal people as lesser beings.

I've been in some white households where the filth and destruction is simply indescribable.  Just today I've refused community funds to white people who have defrauded the social security system without conscience.  

I so wish we could simply judge people by their individual behaviours and not classify them all together on the basis of their skin colour.  Very little in life is clearly black and white (I really didn't intend that as a pun), but many shades of grey, and generalisations about an entire race are unjustified and unhelpful.

Julia


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## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

Be interesting to see what happens re Palm Island and Mulrunji.  As I posted on the Corruption thread, ... 



> Aboriginal leaders have welcomed the appointment former New South Wales chief justice Sir Laurence Street to lead a review into the decision not to charge a policeman over a death in custody on Palm Island.
> 
> The death of the man known as Mulrunji led to riots in November 2004, and a Coroner's inquiry that found the officer responsible for the death.
> 
> ...



A man dies in police custody with bruised liver/spleen etc. Meanwhile an aboriginal protester who later threw a stone is serving 18 months in jail    White man's law can be such an ass - (and apparently corrupt ? when you're on the receiving  end?)


----------



## Happy (11 January 2007)

> From ABC, January 11, 2007
> 
> ARREST SPARKS DISTURBANCE IN INDIGENOUS COMMUNITY
> 
> ...




Looks like that difference in culture mentioned in earlier posts explain this episode too.


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

Im sick of the word sorry! Australia should not feel guilty anymore. The chip on the shoulder will never ever go away, this is why in 80 years time their will be no change to this problem. I have run a pub in aboriginal area and let me tell you, that everytime i kick one of them out due to mny reasons ranging from drunken behavior thru to scabing money, the same thing has come out of each and everyone of their mouths "are you rich white fella, because im going take you to court and take all your money".  I know i am a racist, because i steriotype every aboridginal person i meet and that is they are a danger to me and my family.  Now shoot me down if you like but, this is the way i feel.


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## tmallie (11 January 2007)

Does that mean that I am a danger to you and your family.............????

Troy (Aboriginal man)


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## Nicks (11 January 2007)

banjo_pete said:
			
		

> Im sick of the word sorry! Australia should not feel guilty anymore. The chip on the shoulder will never ever go away, this is why in 80 years time their will be no change to this problem. I have run a pub in aboriginal area and let me tell you, that everytime i kick one of them out due to mny reasons ranging from drunken behavior thru to scabing money, the same thing has come out of each and everyone of their mouths "are you rich white fella, because im going take you to court and take all your money".  I know i am a racist, because i steriotype every aboridginal person i meet and that is they are a danger to me and my family.  Now shoot me down if you like but, this is the way i feel.




Thats what you get from people who aren't as fortunate as you to have had an education and to have been brought up above the poverty line and treated with dignity and respect by people who stereotype them like you do. Im not saying that behaviour is right, but if you understand where it stems from maybe we can realise we all have a part to play in it.


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

What is the answer????? No one knows!  But i have a idea.   It involves handing power back to them!  Now every aboriginal artifact shop i have been to, is run by white Australians or even overseas people.  Why not give them the right to sell their own art and culture?  Just imagine making it illegal for the white man to be involved in the production, wholesale and the retail of aboriginal art? Could you imagine these ppl seeing some one in their comunity suceeding at the white fellas game. Role models would start to occur, a sense of pride and worth would flow back. They would be adding to the community both black and white. Something has to change and if they can see ppl succeed then just maybe this will spur others on.


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

Troy, I'm sorry to say, yes I would cross the road if I had my family with me and an aboriginal was walking towards me.  I have had to much experience to not be wary!


----------



## Julia (11 January 2007)

banjo_pete said:
			
		

> What is the answer????? No one knows!  But i have a idea.   It involves handing power back to them!  Now every aboriginal artifact shop i have been to, is run by white Australians or even overseas people.  Why not give them the right to sell their own art and culture?  Just imagine making it illegal for the white man to be involved in the production, wholesale and the retail of aboriginal art? Could you imagine these ppl seeing some one in their comunity suceeding at the white fellas game. Role models would start to occur, a sense of pride and worth would flow back. They would be adding to the community both black and white. Something has to change and if they can see ppl succeed then just maybe this will spur others on.




Great idea.  This is the sort of philosophy Noel Pearson has attempted to promote for his people rather than the passive acceptance of welfare which will never build any sense of pride or esteem.

Julia


----------



## nioka (11 January 2007)

banjo_pete said:
			
		

> What is the answer????? No one knows!  But i have a idea.   It involves handing power back to them!  Now every aboriginal artifact shop i have been to, is run by white Australians or even overseas people.  Why not give them the right to sell their own art and culture?  Just imagine making it illegal for the white man to be involved in the production, wholesale and the retail of aboriginal art? Could you imagine these ppl seeing some one in their comunity suceeding at the white fellas game. Role models would start to occur, a sense of pride and worth would flow back. They would be adding to the community both black and white. Something has to change and if they can see ppl succeed then just maybe this will spur others on.



Dream on.


----------



## tmallie (11 January 2007)

banjo..........I too am sorry you feel this way towards aboriginal people.......it's these stereotypes of aboriginal people and lack of understanding that causes the problems!!  

You would even cross the road even when I am in my business suit???

T


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

Mate what % do you think are adding to society like yourself??? i would really like to know???  I have seen the worst of aboriginals working in a pub. Im not saying they are all bad ppl, but i have yet to meet one without a chip on their shoulder. Been punched in the face three times by aboriginal women doing my job. Now i play by the law! If someone is intoxicated i wont serve them, i have seen many publicans who are that scared that they just keep serving. White or black if you are drunk you are out. Now you can say we have come in and stolen your land, which is 100% true. But what is going to happen??? We are not going to leave are we! If captain cook hadnt landed in aus 210 years ago then there would be no problems, but he did! So you ppl can do one of two things!  1. Bury your heads in the sand and continue along the same path or 2. Get over it! Sounds harsh doesnt it?  But those are the choices. I have friends who are bitter and twisted, they go on about how ppl treat them badly(the world is against them) and guess what they have nothing, no family no relationships, no money, nothing!!!!!! And you know why?? Because they are to busy thinking they are hard done by. My case in point!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

and 3. keep pushing for justice at palm island etc ?
I mean, to die in police custody is one definition of "hardly done by" i suppose.


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

when your population accounts for 2% of the total population and accounts for 22% of inmate population. Why does the media not say anything when a white man dies in custody???  1 in 5 inmates are aboriginal!


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

banjo_pete said:
			
		

> 1 in 5 inmates are aboriginal!




banjo, can we assume then that 4 in 5 deaths in custody are white?
appreciate any stats you have.
PS of course - ANY deaths in custody are unacceptable.
PS that goes for unjustified treatment of D Hicks as well btw.


----------



## tmallie (11 January 2007)

Don't worry I have gotten over it!!!  

I agree with you in when you talk about people that have  "victim status"............I have met many people black and white with the "poor me" syndrome.  I completely disagree with that way of thinking.  People have to get up and do something about it or they will be miserable for the rest of their lives.  I had to!.............and I have become a stronger person for it.

It does definetly work both ways.....

It also works the other way too as I have been punched (flogged) by rednecks in country queensland but you don't see me going around hating every white person I see.............I'm married to a white woman!!

Hopefully one day I can come in and have a beer with ya!!

T


----------



## banjo_pete (11 January 2007)

tmallie its ppl like you who should be out in the aboriginal community showing there is another answer!  I applaud you!


----------



## tmallie (11 January 2007)

Thanks.......funny you say that.....thats what I do to for a living (to buy more AGS shares)

I am a consultant training aboriginal people in IT and cultural heritage management.

Education is the key!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

banjo
another way to look at it suppose...
when a white man is found to have a case to answer for "causing fatal injuries" by coroner, but DPP rules no need...

yet a black(i believe a young mother of an infant kid - ill check) who throws a stone gets 18 months in jail ...

I wonder if this explains that imbalance (22% of inmates etc) that you were referring to ?

btw also, here's a white man who seems to be a bit troubled by all this...that Mulrunji Doomadgee was "hardly done by".....Federal indigenous affairs minister Mal Brough 



> http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/end-custody-death-confusion/2006/12/15/1165685866546.html
> In September, a coroner found Snr Sgt Hurley struck Mulrunji Doomadgee, 36, and caused his fatal injuries on November 19, 2004, at the police station on the far north Queensland island.
> 
> But Ms Clare yesterday said the death had been due to a "complicated fall" and the evidence was not capable of proving Snr Sgt Hurley was criminally responsible for Mulrunji's death.
> ...



The good news is that public pressure has forced a review.


----------



## macca (11 January 2007)

When we went across the Nullarbor I noticed on the map that a roadhouse was within an aboriginal land area and was run by aboriginal people.

We chose to stop at the roadhouse as a sign of support for their efforts.

There were no artifacts of any sort for sale.

The roadhouse had been leased to a white couple.

The settlement behind the roadhouse looked like a car wrecking yard and the few aboriginals hanging around the roadhouse were shouting and swearing at each.

At Ceduna all the motels have compounds otherwise all the cars are vandalised overnight.

Another example is Wilcannia in NSW, if a building does not have a manproof fence then it is vandalised, graffiti all over, the only business we could find open was a roadhouse and EVERYTHING was behind the counter so it wasn't stolen.

They really don't help themselves do they


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2007)

The question is whether the negative behaviour of aborigines is inherent in their culture or genetics; or whether it is common to all homo sapiens when faced with similar situations.

To suggest that aborigines have equal opportunity in this country is to seriously whack ones self off. Yes they get a few cash and other benefits not available to whitefella. But the things that are truly important to human beings extend well beyond benefits and include things like a feeling of usefulness, respect from others, self respect, pus a myriad of other psychological factors.

Aborigines suffer a daily psychological assault in these areas. Remarkably, it is often the "do-gooders" who reinforce this message.

The question then becomes: Would other races behave in the same way if in the same circumstance, viz, caucasians? The answer to that is resoundingly in the affirmative. One needs only to study the "deprivation index" of those nations that produce one, to see the correlation between deprivation and anti-social behaviour/crime rate.

A stroll around somewhere like Liverpool in the UK would supply all the empirical evidence required.


----------



## Stan 101 (11 January 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> or whether it is common to all homo sapiens when faced with similar situations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Two great points, Wayne. There is no easy solution to what is a crisis for humanity. On one hand we have the government doling out an incredible amount of cash to native Australians, only to have it pilfered and syphoned by their own people. Ever asked the question of who actually sells the alcohol in places like Pompuraw and who is lining their pockets with the profits?
I had the fortune to share several classes during my scholling with a son of a prominant Aboriginal activist/politician and writer. I gained some in insites to the psych of this guy. We got on fairly well. I noticed how this individual would at any chance blame his misfortune on his heritage, so much so it became simply embarrassing to be in his company. I hear through a mutual friend he himself now is now an acclaimed writer / artist himself these days. I just hope for his own people's sake that he's decided to to drop "racism" bit.

I understand that some terrible things were done to Aboriginal people over time - killing, slavery, stolen generation. One day they are going to have to stand up and say "okay, the greiving time is over. We can stay sitting on our arses whining about how my great great great grandfather was taken away from his family by the tyrant of the colony, or we can start to get on with our lives." 
It won't be easy, but one day it simply must be done. It certainly isn't my fault that aboriginal people are the way they are, but I'm more than willing to do what I can by showing equality to equals. By that I mean, if common decency to fellow people are shown and self respect is apparent, they are an equal. Whoever it is.
Good things often shine through from adversity. I suppose this can be used in all walks of life. Stop naming people as Korean, Christian, Aboriginal and the like and treat them on the way they hold themselves in your company.


cheers,


----------



## Bobby (11 January 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> The question is whether the negative behaviour of aborigines is inherent in their culture or genetics; or whether it is common to all homo sapiens when faced with similar situations.
> 
> To suggest that aborigines have equal opportunity in this country is to seriously whack ones self off. Yes they get a few cash and other benefits not available to whitefella. But the things that are truly important to human beings extend well beyond benefits and include things like a feeling of usefulness, respect from others, self respect, pus a myriad of other psychological factors.
> 
> ...



Wayne ,

A most impressive post!  Well done.

Yes I do see your link between your first & last sentence.
Internecine attitude is intrinsic.   

Cheers Bob.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 January 2007)

Wayne I totally agree also.
I ask myself - if I was born aboriginal, (or red indian, I guess), with all that that entails,  out in the middle of some vast wasteland -   would I have been able to get an education etc - as I have been lucky enough to do. no way. 
I wouldn't swap with em for a minute. (would any of us swap? would you swap banjo !  sorry I mean !!!!!!!!)

I know that things are getting seriously out of hand in western NSW etc, but if we're going to start judging, then lets not pretend that every white person out there in "the wild west" is perfect either. 

Speaking of wrecked cars cluttering the Nullarbor, does anyone remember that tv show about the aboriginal mechanics? - like they'd break a front axle - so what? lol - just stick in a branch and drive in reverse  seriously innovative.


----------



## Bobby (12 January 2007)

macca said:
			
		

> When we went across the Nullarbor I noticed on the map that a roadhouse was within an aboriginal land area and was run by aboriginal people.
> 
> We chose to stop at the roadhouse as a sign of support for their efforts.
> 
> ...



Macca,

Yep I know that road house,  stopped at it in 1995     ~  short story we left Quick. 

Another adventure was the fortified caravan park at Laverton W.A.

Try using to toilet at the service station in Wilcannia, you get a set of keys to go through about three doors with barbed wire tops.
The sign on the pub says we have lock up garages for your car.

I'm a big mean looking bugger who never feels intimated, but in that town I felt uneasy.

Bob.


----------



## Happy (12 January 2007)

> From ABC,  January 11, 2007
> 
> MAGISTRATE GRANTS BAIL TO MAN AT CENTRE OF AURUKUN RIOT
> The man at the centre of the riot in the Cape York community of Aurukun has appeared in the Cairns Magistrate's Court on assault charges.
> ...




Hardly a member of underprivileged group of society, but good pawn in struggle for sorry saga.


----------



## macca (12 January 2007)

I approach this from a different perspective than most, in my teenage years 60% of my mates were aboriginals.

Their fathers had broken the existing barriers back in the 1960s and lived as involved members of the general community. They made damn sure that their kids went to school everyday, they were all liked and treated as equals.

We went to their houses, they came to ours, all now have reasonable jobs and some are on the land council in the area.

Talking to these guys now and they all agree with Pearson, they grew up with self respect and still have it. They are encouraging the next generation to seek training from the land council and get jobs.

As they say, "we don't want our grandkids living in the stone age", there are ample funds available for training, lets use them to create opportunity for our people.


----------



## Nicks (12 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Wayne I totally agree also.
> I ask myself - if I was born aboriginal, (or red indian, I guess), with all that that entails,  out in the middle of some vast wasteland -   would I have been able to get an education etc - as I have been lucky enough to do. no way.
> I wouldn't swap with em for a minute. (would any of us swap? would you swap banjo !  sorry I mean !!!!!!!!)
> 
> ...




Wayne, 2020 - exactly the point I was trying to say, but articulated a little better. This is the the nut of what this whole thread is about.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 January 2007)

Nicks - personally I think you said it better than me lol ...but anyways.   Perhaps Henry Lawson's poem is "relevant"  - perhaps with the word "prouder" changed to "louder" in the case of the average pubscene.   



> A PROUDER MAN THAN YOU, by Henry Lawson
> 
> If you fancy that your people came of better stock than mine,
> If you hint of higher breeding by a word or by a sign,
> ...




PS my grandfather only had aboriginals for playmates  (born on a station out near birdsville, way back when - and incidentally a breach birth and only an aboriginal lady as a midwife - no whites for 50 miles plus)   ;;
- and personally i found they had a great sense of humour when I worked with em on a farm in central Qld once...A friend and I were making a few bucks picking Rhodes grass seeds - one of the aboriginal workers walked past ..  " hey .. you in dat grass dere, pikin that Rhodes grass seed !! - I saw a big snake dere yesterday... hehehehe"


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 January 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1821811.htm


> Griffith Aboriginal mothers appeal for calm after boy's death
> Aboriginal women in the Riverina city of Griffith, in south-western New South Wales, have urged residents not to blame their community over the violent death of a popular student on New Year's Day.
> 
> Text messages are circulating in the city that incite race violence.
> ...



Interesting that people inciting racial violence by text messages (or posts here?) might be prosecuted .


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 January 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hullo All,
> 
> I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.
> 
> ...




I don`t know the answer to the question but this thread looks like a good place to vent ones connections and maybe get some reply......

I went to a one teacher school varying from four to twelve kids in Maxwelton, N.W. Qld. Aboriginal brother and sister Nelson and Elizabeth Mackie were school mates.From memory (and incomparison to us caucasians) both were real, and to know real then one has to experience it.My minds eye holds a vivid picture and wish all their needs are met.

True aboriginal,yes.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 January 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834259.htm


> Policeman to be charged over Palm Island death
> The man in charge of reviewing the Palm Island death in custody case in north Queensland has found there is sufficient evidence to prosecute a police officer for manslaughter.
> 
> Former New South Wales chief justice Sir Laurence Street spent about three weeks examining Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare's decision not to lay charges against Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley over the 2004 death of Mulrunji in the Palm Island watch-house.
> ...



now isnt that interesting ... makes you wonder about the blindfold on the lady who holds those scales of justice don't it.  My guess is she peeks  


> Decision welcomed
> A crowd of about 50 people cheered and cried when Sir Laurence's findings were announced at an Indigenous concert in Townsville.  Aboriginal activist Gracelyn Smallwood says she is overwhelmed.
> 
> "This has been an historical day for black Australia and I believe that reconciliation can happen," she said.  "Many white Australians supported us and many white people from all around the world and blacks came together and it's a celebration and I'm just ecstatic on it."



gr8 day for justice.  Let's see how much of the evidence gets shredded


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 January 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834581.htm Mulrunji decision 'historic' for Indigenous justice


> The decision to charge a Queensland police officer over a death in custody has been described as one of the most significant events in the last 200 years of Aboriginal history.
> 
> The State Member for Townsville, Mike Reynolds, says it is an historic decision. .."Everyone is saying that this is one of the most important days in the 219 years in regard to justice for Indigenous people," he said.  The Palm Island community celebrated into the night and Mulrunji's friends say they are looking forward to having their day in court.
> 
> ...



"Leanne Clare's future is under a cloud if a jury finds that he is guilty." - and all the jurors will get speeding tickets on the way home? 
still, there may be some surprises in the evidence - time will tell.
(bit like Hicks really - except that here at least they know what the charge is   )
And the aboriginals at last feel their voices have been heard on such an important matter - which is important for any aussie citizen.


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 January 2007)

> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834766.htm Police threaten to cut ties with Indigenous communities
> The Queensland Police Union (QPU) has turned up the pressure on the State Government over the decision to charge an officer over an Aboriginal death in custody.   The union says police should be removed from Indigenous communities and tribal law should be allowed to take over, if communities do not want a police presence.



interesting reaction to the fact that one of their number has to face manslaughter charges - ?  reduced police presence ? can't quite see the connection myself.  Are they saying that if there is a police presence, then there must follow that there will be deaths in custody?



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834657.htm  Mulrunji decision prompts call for legal changes
> The Australian Council for Civil Liberties (ACCL) has called for greater accountability at the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) in Queensland....
> ACCL president Terry O'Gorman has rejected demands the DPP be sacked but is calling for change.  "We say judges should be given back the power to decide whether cases should go on or not, and we also say that people, including Sergeant Hurley if he wins his case, should be given their costs," he said.



and awarding costs under these circumstances would also seem to be reasonable.
Incidentally, does anyone remember when Joh Bjelke Petersen got off his charges - as I recall it was something to do with an obstructionist jury member?



> Justice.  Indigenous activist Sam Watson says the decision to lay manslaughter charges Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley has restored some faith in the legal system.   But he says Sir Laurence Street's review of the case proves the role of the DPP needs to be re-examined.
> 
> "Because justice in this state should not be blinded by the colour of a person, they should not be blinded by the cultural language of a person, justice should not be blinded by where a person lives," he said.



i agree, justice should simply be blind m8.


----------



## Sean K (25 May 2007)

This has been sleeping for a little while, but the topic of sacred aboriginal land, and ownership, has been floating around for a bit, especially in relation to Native Title and release of land for exploration and mining. This has never been more evident than the traditional land owners in Kakadu to tell ERA/RIO that they can not develop Jabiluka this week. More to follow of course.

Now, another Aboriginal group is releasing their land for gain. 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I have always had the impression that the environment was sacred to aboriginals. The land, the trees, the animals, all of it. Even when they caused bush fires to flush out animals, or kill them for food, this was justified to be good for the environment. How can they, as a people, be content with allowing nuclear waste to be stored here, but then prevent mining of it there?



			
				The Age said:
			
		

> *Aboriginals offer nuclear dump site*
> Tara Ravens and Dennis Peters
> May 25, 2007 - 5:57PM
> 
> ...


----------



## BIG BWACULL (27 May 2007)

Making up for stolen time



Daniel Dasey
May 27, 2007
Cecil Bowden ... lost generation child.

CECIL BOWDEN was 18 months old when the authorities arrived at his Cowra home and demanded his family hand him over.

With Cecil's father away at war, relatives could do little but watch as he was packed off to the first of a series of institutions where he would be abused, ridiculed and humiliated.

One of about 1500 people who marched through Sydney yesterday to commemorate the 10th anniversary of a report into the stolen generation of Aboriginal people, Mr Bowden said his early experiences had scarred him deeply.

Told his parents were dead, it was an easy step for an angry young man to progress from Aboriginal institutions into prisons where he would spend close to 30 years.

"It turned out my father was actually alive and had tried to get us back," Mr Bowden said.

"He was a returned soldier who fought in both world wars but he could not get his own kids."

Yesterday's Sorry Day march marked the 10th anniversary of the Bringing Them Home report into the thousands of Aboriginal Australians separated from their families as a result of government policy.

Today marks the 40th anniversary of the national referendum in 1967 that resulted in Aboriginal people being counted in Australia's census for the first time.

The anniversaries come as the Federal Opposition yesterday pledged $261million over four years towards improving primary health care for indigenous Australians.

Mr Bowden, a member of the NSW Sorry Day committee, said he remembered his reaction to the referendum in which over 90 per cent of Australians voted to officially recognise Aboriginal people.

"I felt angry as usual," he said. "But maybe a little safer."

Leilla Penrith, who was taken from her family at six months, said she remained hopeful of change.

"I've been pushed from pillar to post all my life," she said. "But I'm still trying to keep going day to day."

Shadow federal environment minister Peter Garrett told a rally at Circular Quay that white Australia still had further to go in acknowledging the harm done to Aboriginal people.

Research released by Reconciliation Australia suggests Australians are ready for better relations between indigenous and non-indigenous people. A national survey found that most Australians believed reconciliation was about developing mutual respect and that indigenous people had equal rights.

It found 71 per cent of people considered developing better relationships between black and white Australians was important.

Just under 40 per cent felt it was either very important or extremely important.
Source: The Sun-Herald


----------



## BIG BWACULL (27 May 2007)

Even made it to the aljazeera network

Hundreds of people marched through central Sydney on the 40th anniversary of the Aboriginal referendum
In the 1967 referendum 90 per cent of Australians voted that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be counted in the national census. May 26 was also the 10th National Sorry Day which acknowledges the mistreatment of Australia's indigineous families. The referendum also gave the federal government the power to make laws for indigineous people. Many marchers say the day is about bringing all Australians together and coming to terms with their history.


----------



## hangseng (27 May 2007)

Bobby said:


> Hullo All,
> 
> I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.
> 
> ...




*Merriam-Webster 1913*

*Aboriginal   Ab`o*rig"i*nal *(�), a. [See Aborigines.] 
1. First; original; indigenous; primitive; native; as, the aboriginal tribes of America. “Mantled o'er with aboriginal turf.” Wordsworth.
2. Of or pertaining to aborigines; as, a Hindu of aboriginal blood.

*Aboriginal  Ab`o*rig"i*nal*, n. 
1. An original inhabitant of any land; one of the aborigines.
2. An animal or a plant native to the region.


*American Heritage Dictionary* - Cite This Source *ab·o·rig·i·ne       *(āb'ə-rĭj'ə-nē)  Pronunciation Key  
n.   
1. 
    a. A member of the indigenous or earliest known population of a region; a native. See Usage Note at native. 
    b. often *Aborigine* A member of any of the indigenous peoples of Australia. 
2 *aborigines* The flora and fauna native to a geographic area. 

[From Latin aborīginēs, original inhabitants (folk etymology of a pre-Roman tribal name) : ab-, from; see ab-1 + orīgine, ablative of orīgō, beginning; see origin.]


*in·dig·e·nous      /ɪnˈdɪdʒənəs/* Pronunciation [in-dij-uh-nuhs] 
–adjective 1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.  
2. innate; inherent; natural (usually fol. by to): feelings indigenous to human beings.  

[Origin: 1640–50; < L indigen(a) native, original inhabitant (indi-, by-form of in- in-2 (cf. indagate) + -gena, deriv. from base of gignere to bring into being; cf. genital, genitor) + -ous]


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 May 2007)

http://www.faira.org.au/issues.html - heaps of details of various committees etc. land rights, stolen generation etc.

Then of course there was Hindmarsh Island -  shouldn't get a bridge etc because of "5000 year old secret women's business" and that, sure enough, if you got in a helicopter and went up a thousand feet or so, you could make out the rough shape of male genetalia.  
Which just goes to prove that aboriginal women mastered flight 5000 years ago. (Whereis.com).  (This map is about 7km x 4 km) 

PS Don't get me wrong - I have tremendous sympathies with em - and only 40 years ago they were excluded in census - or rather regarded as "fauna (and other animals)"


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (3 June 2007)

Hey guys & girls,

just wondering, are Aussie & Aboriginal the same thing?

I was thinking about this and i figure, i was born in Australia so that makes me Aboriginal. Being a native to Australia.

I mean really, what else can i be?

My Mum was born in Oz but Dad is English.

I mean, we all know that skin colour is irrelevant, so whether i am black or white should not matter but that i am an Australian native.

Is there any merrit to this.

No offence to Aboriginals, just got me thinking. I figure i am as native to Australia as anyone else. 

JW


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 June 2007)

interesting JW 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=108277&highlight=seekers#post108277

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoGJQkKDYk&mode=related&search=  the seekers , I am, you are, we are Australian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBI3xiDzxMM&mode=related&search=


> I AM AUSTRALIAN (Bruce Woodley and Dobe Newton)
> 
> I came from the dream time, from the dusty red soil plains,
> I am the ancient heart - the keeper of the flame,
> ...


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (4 June 2007)

Exactly 2020!!!!

Thats exactly what i am saying mate!

Thats sums it up, we are one of the same Aborigial = Australian

I feel like i have a connection with this land just like the Aboriginals, i don't belong to any other country, this is my home, its where i was born, its where i grew up, its in my blood.

Forget about skin colour, forget about all the other rubbish, i am part of this land.

What happened in 1788 is history, like so many other sad historic events, barbaric!

I like the aboriginals, hell, like i said i feel like i am one myself.

One thing i was taught was that - YOU CAN'T MOVE FORWARD WHILE YOU ARE LOOKING BACKWARDS - **** happens but you just got to build a bridge and get over it or you will be consumed by it and it will destroy you!

Its time...................lets get on with it, we are on the same side for gods sake!


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 June 2007)

JW
btw, they say they sing that song at the opeing of every meeting of the Society for Schizophrenics.   .... viz:-
"we are one, but we are many"  etc 

PS it would be great if that song applied to all Aussies equally in reality - "and sing with one voice" etc - 
instead of just in that song   

Bit like "we are the world, we are the children" etc 

I think I agree, move on etc,  but - it would be nice if someone added a "sorry" in there somewhere. (imo)

Otherwise the "sing with one voice" will equate to ...

"dragging em along to choir practice and singing under duress" 
Can't imagine the resultant song having much "harmony" (pun intended)


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (4 June 2007)

Society for Schizophrenics AGM - now that would be interesting!

No probs with the sorry thing, but, i reckon it needs to come from the English.

As far as i am concerned i don't have anything to apologize for and i imagine most other Australian born folk like myself feel the same. I feel like the English also owe me an apology for what they did to my ancestors as well as the Aboriginals.

And there lies the problem i reckon, lets say Australia apologizes to the Aboriginies for what the English did to them and also for what some of the subsequent following generation did to them, hows that going to fix the mess they are in?

Not sure if this is making sense but like i said, an apology from me, who has never done anything to Aboriginies, whats the good of that?

I am on their side, I was born here the same as them, I am them.

I just don't get it? But happy to provide an apology it if it helps them and thats what they want.

I still think they are consumed with history, its destroying them. Until they start to look forward they are doomed!

I am on there side but some one needs to tell them to get there **** together, its that simple. I know its not PC but it needs to be said.

I don't care who you are but change starts with yourself. Respect is earnt NEVER given, its a universal rule.

I understand that they are in a difficult situation, things are tough and they face challenges, i know its not easy for them BUT thats when you need to rise above all the crap, show who you are and the strength you have inside.

You got to forget about all the stuff that 'other people' did in the past, its history, its over, gone, done with, finished. Start thinking, using the noodle, the grey matter, sort out the future, FORGET THE PAST, IT WILL BE THE END OF YOU IF YOU DON'T.

How lucrative could the holiday business be for them if they set up a educational travel and holiday business around everythign aboriginal. Kind of like the 'Intrepid' adventures they do overseas. They could tell about the dream time, bush tucker, art, it goes on and on..................people would come from all over the globe to hear what they had to say and learn about their culture and traditions.

The answer can only come from the Aboriginal people themselves.

I just wish them the best of luck


----------



## BIG BWACULL (4 June 2007)

By standing up for what you believe in you can make a difference. So what your saying is they should just bend over and get rogered. Why give up on your land after fighting so long too get something you already owned. Its like someone knocking (not even knocking actually) on your front door and moving in and starting to live their lives, what would you do? let them do it, or run to the coppers crying foul.



> Vincent Lingiari (1908–1988), was an Aboriginal rights activist who was awarded the Order of Australia for his services to the Aboriginal people. Lingiari was a member of the Gurindji people from the Northern Territory's Victoria River District. Lingiari led the Wave Hill Walk-Off, which eventually resulted in the return of the land to the Gurindji by the Commonwealth of Australia.






> The Wave Hill strike would eventually reshape the agenda of relationships between Indigenous Australians and the wider community. Although initially an employee-rights action, it soon became a major federal issue when the Gurindji people demanded the return of their traditional lands.
> 
> The strike lasted seven years. Over that time, support for Aboriginal rights grew as the struggle intensified. The protest eventually led to the Commonwealth Land Rights Act (Northern Territory), 1976. This Act gave Indigenous Australians freehold title to traditional lands in the Northern Territory and, significantly, the power of veto over mining and development on those lands.
> 
> An important and symbolic event in Australian history occurred when, during an emotional ceremony in 1975, Prime Minister Gough Whitlam poured the local sand into Vincent Lingiari's hands and handed the Wave Hill station back to the Gurindji people.






> Vincent Lingiari confronted the vast economic and political forces that were arrayed against him and his people. In doing so, he won a victory that is one of the most outstanding achievements in the history of the struggle for the recognition of Indigenous people, their rights and responsibilities in the land, and their ability to practise their law, language and culture.




Should he have just given up?
Good onya vincent, god rest his soul.
*WATCH THIS VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tHEGo-g3mw


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (4 June 2007)

They have already been rogered and is wasn't by me. The English gave it to them up the ar$e, not me and not most other Australians. 

No point fighting me, i am on their side, thats my point, who are they fighting, we are all Australians.

I am not saying to completely forget about the past and what was done to them but you have to realise that most Australians who are about today had nothing to do with that. 
We are the same people, the same, thats my point, born and breed in the same land with the same connections to it, its in our blood.

You can fight all you like but it won't change the past and it wont help the future.

These people need solutions and they need solutions for the future not the past.

The video is great. Yes, from little things big things do grow, but you got to sow the seeds to get those little things growing so they grow into big things.

I say, start sowing so these people have a future.

If it doesnt get sorted out soon they will be gone, they will disappear, time is running out and from where i am sitting it looks as bad as ever.

I dont have the answers but i still think its in the hands of the Aboriginals themselves and i think they need to realise we are on their side, not the enemy. Its not 1788, its almost 2008............................


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (4 June 2007)

One other thing to consider....................

I reckon that you have to forget about who owns the land, to me it is irrelevant. You got to look at the bigger picture.

At the end of the day the earth belongs to everyone and its everyones responsibility to take care of it.

There is no point banging on about who should own what land, the planet belongs to all of us.

We live in a global village, essentially whether you like it or not the world will become one of the same in the future. Its already happening.

This is the next step in the process. Its the reality. The world is a melting pot of races mixing becoming one. In another 2-5 thousand years, assuming we dont wipe ourselves out, it will be one of the same.

Those who survive this process will be the ones who can adapt the best.

I dont see the Aboriginals surviving the process. Take the last 200 Years as a small window of how they have managed to adapt to the changing world, in a nut shell they have not adapted at all. This is how extinction occurs.

Like i have said,  i support them, i hope they make it through but i am also a realist and things are looking grim.

They need to think about a 2000 year strategy for the survival of their people.
Then work it back to now, see what changes they need to instigate to survive the future.

I would be asking the elders 'what their plan is for the survival of their people'?

I still think to survive they need to funnel the bulk of their energy into plans for the future and minimal effort on things in the past. 

Time will tell.


----------



## rederob (4 June 2007)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> One other thing to consider....................
> I would be asking the elders 'what their plan is for the survival of their people'?



Get rid of all the interlopers that arrived since the 1800s, stole their land, indroduced diseases and did a few other things that not many would be too proud aout.
How's that for a plan!


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Get rid of all the interlopers that arrived since the 1800s, stole their land, indroduced diseases and did a few other things that not many would be too proud aout.
> How's that for a plan!



You suggesting we'd be the new boat people Rob?
That's ok for you, you probably know someone with a boat lol. 

PS I'm sure the Aborigines would have preferred the Brits to the Spanish Conquistadors -  http://www.worldtravels.com.au/footsteps_conquistadores.html
But would the French have been better? (La Perouse)  http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/exhibitions/laperouse/
or maybe the Dutch (c/- Hartog and co)?  http://www.dirkhartogisland.com/history.htm


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## JeSSica WaBBit (4 June 2007)

Come on Rob, seriously, you can't undo the past, that's exactly what i have been banging on about.

Whats done is done and more to the point, most of those who did it are long gone...................its history mate!

Time to devise a plan and some solutions.

Ok, here goes, try this for a mindset change. Just pretent you can not raise any issue from the past, NONE, so we are only looking forward, focused on the solutions.

Now what would you do?

What are the key things that need to be done to fix this mess up?

Once you identify them the next step is to put the plan into action. Those are solutions and what i expect leaders of a community to address.

Everyone working towards the same goal, which is a better future for Aboriginal people.

Thats how i reckon you have to tackle it.


----------



## rederob (4 June 2007)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> Come on Rob, seriously, you can't undo the past, that's exactly what i have been banging on about.
> 
> Whats done is done and more to the point, most of those who did it are long gone...................its history mate!



You obviously are not Jewish, nor Palestinian!


----------



## anne (4 June 2007)

I   agree with jessica Wabbit.

Thirty years of zero     improvement in the aboriginal wellbeing  is disgraceful and we need to   seriously  come up with solutions   that work.

I've thought about   ways to   help e.g. 

offering better schooling and maybe even boarding school places for those  interested,    

keeping a  tally of aborignials who are successful (however you define that) and trying to lift that number by 20% or whatever each  year; 

producing  DVD documentaries of  the stories of "sucessful" aboriginals  to   inspire   young aboriginals,  

promoting eco-tourism e.g.  funding back-packer-standard accommodation run by aboriginals for tourists to stay in  to experience   aboriginal  culture,etc.

Does anyone know of any successful tax-deductible aboriginal  philanthropic projects that are achieving  good results?  Occassionally you read  about  good- sounding projects in the paper but then the information's  gone.

The government's success to date is  woeful.  If you were a paranoid person,  you might wonder if they were secretly trying to deliberately wipe out  the aboriginals through their   so-called  help!

i do   feel  bad  about how  our ancestors treated the aboriginals,  but I feel worse about   our pathetic efforts to  help them today.  i cannot believe it is an insoluble problem;  I do believe  however that   no-one in the government has been trying  very hard.

Cheers Anne


----------



## rederob (4 June 2007)

I am sure John Howard would not agree that things are so bad today.
He's presided over some wonderful changes that have put our indigenous folk on track to become model citizens, owning homes and accepting money in exchange for sending kids to school, and other amazing things.


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## BIG BWACULL (4 June 2007)

Jessica wabbit this is not toon town, Yes we write our own scripts but their are others to consider in this story, we cant wipe the past because its part of the future, those from the stolen generation that were ripped from their families need to delve into their past to find out who they are and where they came from and make that connection in order to move forward, Just like with anyone going through counselling, do you honestly think these councilers will tell their patients build a bridge and get over it,tell them their crazy, NO, their are better  ways of dealing with these issues. So wabbit you mean to tell me that tomorrow I could walk up to anyone bash the S#@T out of them, rob them blind and after the fact, its in the past so it means its ok, Yeah that would hold up in court.
When someone commits murder,adultery or such is it recognised that it was in the past therefore it doesnt count, The offenders are free to go,
"OH you killed that guy Yesterday, sorry my mistake".
Wake up Jessica wabbit, Sorry but sweeping it under the rug just doesnt cut the mustard
By accepting the past "History",
 we pave paths to the future


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## Flying Fish (5 June 2007)

go up north and see what these people are really like. their custom is to beat their wives. they are no hopers and even if noone came to australia they would still be the same bunch of no hopers, i am sorry to say.


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## 2020hindsight (5 June 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> go up north and see what these people are really like. their custom is to beat their wives. they are no hopers and even if noone came to australia they would still be the same bunch of no hopers, i am sorry to say.



ff, ever considered it might be paleface firewater that's part of the problem ?

btw, I wouldn't say that to Ernie Dingo if I were you, not that he'd become violent - just that you or I mightn't be able to compare ourselves favourably with him


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## Spaghetti (5 June 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> go up north and see what these people are really like. their custom is to beat their wives. they are no hopers and even if noone came to australia they would still be the same bunch of no hopers, i am sorry to say.





I live up north much of the time. I see no real problem. Downtown Cairns you may see some drunks but easily outnumbered by drunk backpackers. Where my house is is about 15% aboriginal and fewer problems than in Sydney's south west or in Sydney housing commission areas.

I worked years in TNT towers in redfern. Again saw less problems than probably pictured by most. 

No doubt problems but, big problems but the biggest problem is how much we overreact. You mention one aboriginal issue and the response is always over whelming. See just the number of responses to this thread. The sheer size of response to a people who represent such a small portion of our total population does suggest we are a very racist society.

In this country we pay wealthy people to have babies but there is no outrage. We give tax relief to those working in remote areas, no outrage. Why do we give this tax relief? because people in remote areas do not get the same level of government services than those in rural areas. It is perhaps cheaper to pay the dole than to build industry, build roads, decent schools, dams, reliable electrical supply. But supply these services we must.

To me forcing people away from their homes is an abuse of basic human rights. Yet this is what we are trying to achieve. If you go to Cape York the roads are dirt and dusty. You cannot find a woolworths or a target. Go to the Islands, say Thursday Island and see if you could afford a house there. I can't. Aborigines have looked after the land to the point their areas are often classified as national parks. So they cannot, even if they wished to develop the land and progress as we have. We don't allow it! The rest of their land we have fenced in. Millions of acres just for cows instead of people.

We are dictating them to keep their culture from 200 years ago or join in ours. No real opportunity for them to evolve their culture to a modernised version because we stop it one way or another. And when cultural identity is taken away we always end up with social problems that can last centuries and lead to wars.

I am going to the Laura festival later this month to join in their festival and celebrate the positives of their culture which most choose to ignore. I feel fortunate there is still this opportunity. I will miss my evening wine as it is a totally drug and alcohol free event, but if they can do it so can I.


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## startrader (5 June 2007)

I agree 100% with Jessica Wabbit.  You have to move forward from where you are and delving into the past and regurgitating all the negative stuff doesn't help one wittle bit.  Of course the bloody counsellors don't tell their patients/clients to build a bridge and get over it because they would be pretty redundant wouldn't they if they did that!  

Getting back to the original comment on this thread about people looking completely white and anglo calling themselves aboriginal, that is an incorrect statement, and I really don't know how they can say it with a straight face.  They are not aboriginal.  They may have a very small percentage of aboriginal blood in them but it is just as stupid as me saying I am Irish because 5 generations ago I had a distant relative who was Irish.  Anyway, it's probably only a few idiots who do it.  If they are proud of their Aboriginal heritage, that's fine, say that and that they are part aboriginal, but to say anything different just sounds, looks and is stupid.


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## Flying Fish (5 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> I live up north much of the time. I see no real problem. Downtown Cairns you may see some drunks but easily outnumbered by drunk backpackers. Where my house is is about 15% aboriginal and fewer problems than in Sydney's south west or in Sydney housing commission areas.
> 
> I worked years in TNT towers in redfern. Again saw less problems than probably pictured by most.
> 
> ...




As an enlightenment I will also go to this festival. What date is it? Thanks


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## Julia (5 June 2007)

rederob said:


> I am sure John Howard would not agree that things are so bad today.
> He's presided over some wonderful changes that have put our indigenous folk on track to become model citizens, owning homes and accepting money in exchange for sending kids to school, and other amazing things.




Rederob

You are always very sarcastic and critical about any government initiatives.
Let's pretend you are Minister for Aboriginal Affairs.
All your decisions will have the unquestioning support of your Party and that of the Opposition.
You may have an unlimited budget.

What would you do to ameliorate the plight of Aboriginal people?


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## 2020hindsight (5 June 2007)

Here's one of those cartoons in the "Australian" website by Peter Nicholson

There are heaps of other cartoons (Bill Leak's in particular) - but some are a bit more gruesome than this one, with respect to domestic violence etc .
I add one as an example    plus another Nicholson


> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/index/0,29221,20581,00.html Peter Nicholson makes a new animated political cartoon exclusively for The Australian every few days. The Australian is the first newspaper in the world to have an animated cartoon this close to the news. The animations do for the web what his famous Rubbery Figures puppets did for television, and feature the voices of Paul Jennings. See his latest on the Home Page or on the Peter Nicholson page. You can get a free email alert as soon as each new one comes out. Nicholson's pocket cartoons appear on page one most days, and his large-scale cartoons are in Media and Inquirer. He has won four Walkley Awards, six Quill Awards, and the National Museum cartoon prize twice. He made several bronze portrait busts for the famous Prime Ministers' Avenue in Ballarat. His cartoons and sculptures are in the National Portrait Gallery, the National Museum and the National Gallery of Victoria. For more information, or to find a particular cartoon, visit his website




Btw, in USA, any businesses set up on Indian Reservations pay no tax (or reduced tax?) for a number of years.  Just a thought 
I used to work with some Aussie Aborigines, and I concede some were inclined to go walkabout for a few days (without notice), but good workers nonetheless - and that was a long time ago.


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## JeSSica WaBBit (5 June 2007)

'The government's success to date is woeful. If you were a paranoid person, you might wonder if they were secretly trying to deliberately wipe out the aboriginals through their so-called help!'


Hey Anne i reckon you could be onto something with that statement.

Now this is a wittle bit of a conspiracy theory but it goes like this..........

I have been thinking about the land rights issue for a while now and wondering if this was part of a cunning plan by those that didnt have the Aboriginals best interests at heart, in fact i am sure of it.

Think about it, why the hell would you focus your attention for say the last 20 years on Landrights when there are bigger things to worry about?

It doesn't make sense. 

Just imagine if that was you, wouldnt you be sorting out education, social problems and so on before you worried about who owned the land?

Like i said earlier, who owns the land is completely irrelevant, the planet belongs to us all. No one ever really owns the land, it BS, something we have made up to make money, its just in your head. To focus your resources and attention on that is just crazy, while your peolpe slip further towards extinction.

Why would you do it, put yourself in that position, it would be the last thing on your mind. Bigger picture issues to sort out first before you get to that one!!

I reckon it was a deliberate destraction, these poor sods just spent probably the most important 20 years or so since the English landed in Oz worring about landrights. Meanwhile, your average Aboriginal has seen almost NO, NONE, ZIPPO, ZILTCH improvement to his/her health, living conditions and general outlook.
I don't know the exact figures but i do have an understanding that not much has changed for a while now.

Its a theory anyway.............................


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## Spaghetti (5 June 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> As an enlightenment I will also go to this festival. What date is it? Thanks




Tickets can be purchased from Quinkan Cultural Centre. $50 a head. This is for 3 days, even you only go one day it is still $50. If you camp or not camp, still $50.

Tickets can be pre-purchased by phone on 07 4060-3457. You can also buy online or at the gates on the day. The online system has had some problem but should be fixed by now.

The festival is from June 22nd to June 24th, 2007.

You can also become acquainted with Quinkan stories and it's related art sites.(boogy man)  I believe most sigificant art sites are closed to the general public but some areas are accessible.

Also any excuse to visit Cape York and Cooktown is worth a effort. Maybe do a trip to Elim Beach as well. Hope you enjoy


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## Spaghetti (5 June 2007)

Sorry, website address for Laura Dance Festival

http://www.quinkancc.com.au/

and select menu option -  news and events.


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## Dukey (5 June 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> go up north and see what these people are really like. their custom is to beat their wives. they are no hopers and even if noone came to australia they would still be the same bunch of no hopers, i am sorry to say.




Fish ...

Definition from answers.com...
*Vil·i·fi·ca·tion*
_n._The act of vilifying or defaming; abuse.   

Your statement constitutes racial vilification as far as I'm concerned.
...& if you can't think a bit deeper beyond what your eyes see, or what you read in the newspaper - then... ??????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????? well - just don't bother spraying your thoughtless negativity around.

Please heed spaghetti's words - when any group of people has it's culture, family, and pride destroyed - there is a mighty big hole to fill. 

I'm currently living in Okinawa - the lowest socio-economic area in Japan. - completely destroyed in WWII (>20% of the population killed) and culturally oppressed by mainland Japan for hundreds of years. Not surprisingly it has the highest rates of poverty, domestic violence and ... you guessed it - ALCOHOLISM in all of Japan.

My belief is that our aboriginal brothers and sisters - coming from an even more 'distant' culture (ie cultural gap between their original culture and ours) - have been even less well equipped to cope with the disasters we have brought upon them.     AND this will continue unless we can provide the 'tools' & opportunities for them to help themselves.
'Sit-down' money is a big problem now. For whites and blacks.

Years ago I lived in Mareeba NQ - on the WRONG side of the railway track among many aboriginal families and plenty of dodgy whites too! & yes there were issues with domestic violence there - but I can tell you for 10 days every fortnight there were no ambulance sirens. But on pension day (free grog day) the trouble would start. At the same time - I always treated my neighbors with respect and courtesy and they did the same for me. 

On a positive note - the Laura festival sounds great.


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## Spaghetti (5 June 2007)

I think we should celebrate more what is great about aboriginal culture and possibly acknowledge what we have learned from them in land management rather than continually focus on the negatives. 

Anyone, including me, gets a little mentally unhinged when exposed to constant criticism. It is human.


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## rederob (5 June 2007)

Hi Julia
We have had 11 years of a coalition government with what benefit to Aboriginal Australians?
Before that we had even longer under Labor.
There have been many inquiries and reports, with hundreds of recommendations and ideas that would benefit individuals and communities.
They have been prepared largely in consultation, and by people working closely with the communities concerned.
Very, very few of the ideas and recommendations ever see the light of day.
The solutions needed are complex, yet what is continually offered up are piecemeal tid bits that have appeal to voters and simply band aid the odd fix here and there - nothing too lasting.
Indeed, that's the problem.  Some good ideas get to see the light of day and then run out of money, or impetus.
I wouldn't need unlimited funds to put in place what might work better than exists now, but I would need a lot of time.


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## Julia (5 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Hi Julia
> We have had 11 years of a coalition government with what benefit to Aboriginal Australians?
> Before that we had even longer under Labor.
> There have been many inquiries and reports, with hundreds of recommendations and ideas that would benefit individuals and communities.
> ...



Rob, thanks for your response.
But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.

e.g. is it helpful to ban alcohol or is this patronising, paternalistic and unreasonable?

e.g. how, specifically, would you address the appalling level of domestic violence and child rape?

e.g. how, specifically, would you go about improving aboriginal health outcomes?

e.g. how, specifically, would you find a way to address aboriginal umemployment? 

etc etc.

regards
Julia


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## arminius (5 June 2007)

i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth. 

before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda. 

white man has been trying to get rid of the natives since 1788. we wanted their land. simple. they were killed, massacred, and paid in grog and smokes to make it harder to fight back. 

no one alive is to blame. 
a sincere apology is the first step. 
if any aborigines are reading this, on behalf of my own ancestors for any wrongs they may have committed, i for one am sorry.


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## Spaghetti (5 June 2007)

arminius said:


> i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth.
> 
> before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda.
> 
> ...




Me too, I am sorry for what we did but more importantly I am sorry for what we do now.


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## 2020hindsight (6 June 2007)

Dukey said:


> Definition from answers.com...
> *Vil·i·fi·ca·tion*
> _n._The act of vilifying or defaming; abuse.
> 
> Your statement constitutes racial vilification as far as I'm concerned.



:iagree:
no way should we resort to crazy derogatory racial generalisations.

"All who are not of good race in this world are chaff"  .. Adolf Hitler


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## Flying Fish (6 June 2007)

arminius said:


> i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth.
> 
> before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda.
> 
> ...




Before  you get too sanctamonious, the early Aboriginals gave as good as that got. A lot of reflectives fell victim to the black fella in early years, there was even incidents in the early 1900's where white families were massacred. As to the grog cigarettes etc, thats personal choice and i doubt you could use that as an excuse given that whites have equal or more access to the stuff. problem is a lot of non-reflectives don't know when enough grog is enough, or just use it as an excuse.

Younger generation non-reflectives use anything as an excuse to hate white man rather than getting on with their lives.

Finally, Australia probably has more asian and non-english people on its shores today, so why blame the english for some **** that happened two hundred years ago? Plenty of asians and other non-whites assimilate well into australian societyI . I  say get over it and become part of the human race.


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## 2020hindsight (6 June 2007)

FF, but when you call em "no hopers"
that's an indictment on the rest of us (non aboriginals), and furthermore
(taking it literally, which is where there is a sad ring of truth), it's obviously just plain unacceptable to stand by and watch other aussies slipping into a predicament where they are "living without hope".


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## 2020hindsight (6 June 2007)

> in·dict·ment
> –noun 1. any charge, accusation, serious criticism, or cause for blame.
> 2. Law. a formal accusation initiating a criminal case, presented by a grand jury and usually required for felonies and other serious crimes.



PS I'm suggesting we accept the fact that we should do more (whether schools, housing, outback industries that are initially very costly but produce results after maybe a generation or even two)- while we are at step 1, rather than at step 2.


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## Flying Fish (6 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> FF, but when you call em "no hopers"
> that's an indictment on the rest of us (non aboriginals), and furthermore
> (taking it literally, which is where there is a sad ring of truth), it's obviously just plain unacceptable to stand by and watch other aussies slipping into a predicament where they are "living without hope".




But hang on, there's plenty of white aussies who are in the same boat and receive no mention. the only reason the indeginous people get the spotlight is because they supposedly have a cause. fact is they get a truck load of handouts and get better health care than most up north. For a minority group in this country they have to be the most well looked after and probably the most outspoken. You can lead a horse to water...

Moreover a lot of them don't want to assimilate/work because its just too easy a life they already have. and when they start running short they just come out and blame the whites, even though our multicultural country is no longer run exclusively by whites. they have some of the best land in the country to live on. They whole thing is a media beet up on both sides


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## waza1960 (6 June 2007)

At the risk of being crucified by the do gooders I agree with you FF.I have had a few aboriginals work for me in the past and they were the nicest people and good employees however in the end they just left their job when various family hassles became too much for them.The problem is no one has the guts to sort out this mess because of accusations of racism and issues of political correctness.Reverse racism is rampant how do you think somebody like Pauline Hanson got so far in politics despite having no policies?The other thing I have noticed is that without exception people who have gone to work in areas with a high population of aboriginals always return less tolerant /sympathetic towards them so I believe that to have a truely informed opinion you would need to live close to them for a time.


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## wayneL (6 June 2007)

The point is this: There have been some fair criticisms of aborigines in this thread, but how many of these "fair" criticisms are because of the simple fact of their race... just because they are aboriginal?

I don't see one. This behaviour we're critical of, would be (and is) endemic amongst whitefella if in identical circumstances; or indeed any race of people.

So to condemn an entire race of people as "no-hopers" IS racist.

Case in point: the white English "chav". Apart from the colour, the behaviour is almost indiscernible.


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## Sean K (6 June 2007)

waza1960 said:


> The other thing I have noticed is that without exception people who have gone to work in areas with a high population of aboriginals always return less tolerant /sympathetic towards them so I believe that to have a truely informed opinion you would need to live close to them for a time.



I lived in Darwin for 3 years and actively sort to get to know the Aboriginal plight. I think I only really touched the surface and was negatively influenced by the city aboriginal, but I left with some appreciation. At the time, I left more negative and less sympathetic as you describe, but I have now come to an understanding linked to Wayne's comment, that if whitefella were in their situation, the situation would be the same. Many of us would be the same negative steroetypes described through this thread. The difference now is that we have had 100s of years of 'Western' development and industrialisation. The Aboriginal is only just going through that process and I imagine it takes some time. Many Aboriginals are still not even accepting 'Western' life and continue to live off the land etc, the way they always have. One day, possibly another century or two, the Aboriginal may become more 'Western' in attitude (if not wiped out) and will join the rest of us in this materialistic, conceited, narcissistic society, we call 'modern living'. If we are still around ourselves.


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## Flying Fish (6 June 2007)

well I reckon everyone can argue till they're blue in the face. perhaps this is an amicable time to shut down this thread


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## wayneL (6 June 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> well I reckon everyone can argue till they're blue in the face. perhaps this is an amicable time to shut down this thread



The mods will decide on that.


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## 2020hindsight (6 June 2007)

I occasionally see the term "do-gooder" used 
Just curious, presumably the opposite is a "do -badder" 

Question then becomes, why would you be proud of it ?


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## rederob (6 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Rob, thanks for your response.
> But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
> I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.
> 
> ...



Julia
I don't have to answer these questions because many of the aboriginal communities already have some or all the issues in check.
The real question is why the successes in communities are not modelled elsewhere.
Unfortunately we keep hearing about the worst things impacting on or carried out by aborigines.
Maybe if more of the good stories were told on mainstream media, and not just on "Message stick TV" a few more people would get wise to what could be done.


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## Bobby (7 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Rob, thanks for your response.
> But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
> I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.
> 
> ...




Yep Julia those are pertinant questions, etc etc is correct.
To be fair to Rob, lets ask it of all those posters who wish to help aboriginals regarding your 4 points to start 
with .................................................... ? 

Cheers Bobby.


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## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

Hey Wayne is that avatar meant to be Don Quixote?
are you practicing to be an astronaut?
King of the Incas maybe?

As for the aborigines, use some imagination
let em get some success, whether a movie (like the Maoris do - and indeed the Aborigines  are increasingly doing)
or photocopying machine factories (like the Navehos) etc etc

PS and maybe give em back a bit of dignity with a formal aoplogy.
Heard a great poem the other day - and aboriginal woman whose child was taken off her.
Let's talk possible legitimate causes for depression.
Let's talk these things through, not cause them to turn their backs on the PM in parliament ( as JH managed to do youll recall )

Maybe lets raise awareness ( like this thread )
maybe contribute to the do-gooders instead of sitting on the fence


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

Hey 20 if you havent already try watchin the aboriginal movie "TEN CANOES" Quite moving, funny, sad and all that, But you have to know how to read cause its subtitled.



> Synopsis
> 
> 'Bout time to tell you a story, eh? Then I'll tell you one of ours...
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

M8, I can remember Jedda !
even Crocodile Dundee ! 
(But yep I'll practice my reading skills and look out for Ten Canoes as well )

Speaking of true stories
My granpa had a story .. one of the aboriginal stockmen asked him to write to Mr McWirter (of the store McWirters , McWhirters(?)) in Brisbane for a new pair of boots.
My Granpa explained that the original Mr McWirter was dead, but yep the store was still trading so yep he'd help him.
so he dictates to him :-

"Dear Mr McWirter
I hear you are dead
please send me a new pair of boots
Jacky Jacky pinched mine. "


PS My grandpa was born out near Birdsville, and only had Aboriginal kids for playmates  - so he loved their sense of humour intentional or otherwise.


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

human history abounds with migrations, displacements, massacres and assimilations. it is our nature to expand and conquer as a result for the competition for resources. the aboriginals were no different, having had their own warfare, massacres, displacements, assimilations and so on, it is the nature of our species.

in no way will i apologise to, or accept an apology on my behalf, the aboriginal people for their succumbing to the inexorable tide of human history. if it wasn't the english it would have been the french 2 weeks later, or the japanese in world war 2, or even the indonesians in more recent history. this bleeding heart "oh i am so deeply and sincerely sorry" is sycophantic liberal guilt and i will not associate myself with it in any way.

as for an earlier comment that westerners who are downtrodden would turn out like the aborigines is rubbish. the irish suffered starvation and discrimination for hundreds of years and yet have managed to create a vibrant and successful society both at home and abroad. jews were massacred in their millions (for hundred of years) and yet have managed in a short period of time to create a successful, modern society. the chinese had tens of millions of people hooked on opium and had their economy pillaged by the western colonial powers yet have managed to leverage their 1 billion peasants into an economic force.

there are many unpopular theories floating around which no one dares talk about, but which give an insight into the difference between races. the simple fact is this - not all people are created equal. some are smarter, some are dumber, some have higher visual acuity, some are physically larger. acquiant yourself with the bell curve, its just like a chart so its easy to figure out. the sooner we drop all the cultural and racial relativism crap the sooner we can have an open and honest discussion about what the problem is, and the better of we will be trying to find a solution.

we have all evolved differently to adapt to our specific environmental conditions. as a species we are superbly suited to deal with our unique environments, however the last few hundred years have seen fundamental changes to our world and how we control it, yet the rule is as simple now as it has always been - adapt or die out.

anyway imo the biggest hurdle aboriginal communities in this country face (aside for their own internal corruption) is the bleeding heart liberals who continue to carry them and "enable" their weaknesses. their choices really are simple, get on board with the rest of society or go tribal with all the negatives of health, mortality etc. that go with it. however they won't be getting their land back unless they take it by force (or we give them bits and pieces of it).


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

Howard on his walkabout, Tough journey


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

Least the WET Canteen aint far


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

Cmon telstra


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

One way to make money i suppose


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

wonder how namatjira's are doin?


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## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> however they won't be getting their land back unless they take it by force (or we give them bits and pieces of it).



Is that how they should (or should've) gotten the kids of the stolen generation back as well?


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

"stealing" the current crop of children from many aboriginal families would be doing them a favour.

regardless, the policies of the past (which were heavily influenced by the church) were mostly guided by what they considered at the time to be in the best interests of the aborigines. whether it was the best thing for them or not is debatable, but it sure is good fodder for the bleeding hearts to continue their bleating.


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## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> "stealing" the current crop of children from many aboriginal families would be doing them a favour.




suggest you pause and listen to yourself there, disarray.
specially if that'e your only answer /consolation / comment about the last time it happened.


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## Julia (7 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Julia
> I don't have to answer these questions because many of the aboriginal communities already have some or all the issues in check.
> The real question is why the successes in communities are not modelled elsewhere.
> Unfortunately we keep hearing about the worst things impacting on or carried out by aborigines.
> Maybe if more of the good stories were told on mainstream media, and not just on "Message stick TV" a few more people would get wise to what could be done.




Rob,
I completely agree.  I've heard some great interviews on ABC Radio with e.g. Aboriginal surgeons.  

Is part of the problem the lack of any apparent cohesion amongst indigenous leaders?  I've heard Noel Pearson talk immense sense but nothing much ever seems to happen in terms of his ideas coming to reality.

Bobby,
Yep, thanks for the suggestion - agree.

Cheers
Julia


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## macca (7 June 2007)

Some posters have mentioned that after people have been involved with some aboriginal settlements they come away disallusioned

I recently read this book from the local library, I would expect it to be in most major libraries

Balanda my year in Arnhem Land /   

This woman was involved in Aboriginal land rights in Melbourne and moved to a settlement in Arnhem Land, very factual story, I thought there was very little spin and was an interesting read.


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## arminius (7 June 2007)

i understand that for every positive experience we 'whites' have had with 'blacks' there are negative ones, probably two or three. there is no easy solution because its a v complex situation. the heart of the matter is, they have to assimilate to our culture. as you say dissaray, 'get on board with the rest of society or go tribal'.  they have to work, get paid, buy stuff. as for not adapting, im pretty sure they did ok for, what, 100 000 years.

dissaray- fyi, the japs never intended to invade oz, and the indos couldn't anyway.

of course the abs fought back. wouldnt you if your back yard was continually 'appropriated'. 
go and have a beer with Keith Windshuttle, im sure he'd appreciate talking to someone who doesnt want to smash him in the face.

anyway, i hope we can come together as a nation one day.


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## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> human history abounds with migrations, displacements, massacres and assimilations. it is our nature to expand and conquer as a result for the competition for resources. the aboriginals were no different, having had their own warfare, massacres, displacements, assimilations and so on, it is the nature of our species.
> 
> in no way will i apologise to, or accept an apology on my behalf, the aboriginal people for their succumbing to the inexorable tide of human history. if it wasn't the english it would have been the french 2 weeks later, or the japanese in world war 2, or even the indonesians in more recent history. this bleeding heart "oh i am so deeply and sincerely sorry" is sycophantic liberal guilt and i will not associate myself with it in any way.
> 
> ...




The presumption here is that we have a superior culture. That the bell curve dictates superiority of races. Trouble is one culture, one race invented the bell curve. Our culture is not that pretty in the eyes of many.

You are correct in your last paragraph in that their choices are simple. Stay tribal or assimilate. This is the problem though. They may not want to totally assimilate because our lifestyle is too foreign, however they do not want to be tribal either and yes left leaning organisations have helped facilitate this lack of choice.

There does need to be a third choice. To be able to evole their culture to current times in their own image. You mention China for eg. They are doing it. They have not done away with chinese food or many traditions. They have done it their way, becoming modern without assimilation into western culture lock, stock and barrel.

The killer paragraph is that you say humans must adapt to their environment or die out, that we must evolve to suit our environment. Well really, hear yourself, we have destroyed a people who did exactly that.


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## wayneL (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> as for an earlier comment that westerners who are downtrodden would turn out like the aborigines is rubbish. the irish suffered starvation and discrimination for hundreds of years and yet have managed to create a vibrant and successful society both at home and abroad. jews were massacred in their millions (for hundred of years) and yet have managed in a short period of time to create a successful, modern society. the chinese had tens of millions of people hooked on opium and had their economy pillaged by the western colonial powers yet have managed to leverage their 1 billion peasants into an economic force.



Your other points from this post, though many will disagree, might be valid, but this above paragraph is rubbish.

To try to compare the plight of Aborigines to these other peoples is not possible. Sure they had a hell of a time, but there are huge differences in cultural aspect. All of these reacted with activism of some description to get where they are now... and have had a lot more time AND weight of numbers to do it.

I'd love to ramble on about this point more, but I'm sure someone more educated than me will take up the batten.

FWIW I live in a town with a big A population and most get by without causing any problems, there is only a hard core of about 100 who cause all the nonsense, so my JP mate tells me. For the amount of overt racism I see here, they're doin' pretty damn good.

One thing I agree on, we must evolve the situation from where it stands now, ... doesn't really do anyone any good except bureaucrats IMO.


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## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

Indians are the most successful migrants in the western world. They earn more than any ethnic group (including Europeans) and have the highest number of professionals on a percentage basis. This is true here, in the US and in the UK.

With Dissaray's logic we should all adopt Indians as leaders of the free world. They have, against all odds, become the most successful at adapting to their new environment.

Can Dissaray accept this scenario and adapt to eating curry. I wouldn't mind, love a good curry but I do hate cricket.


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## Dukey (7 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> ......
> 
> FWIW I live in a town with a big A population and most get by without causing any problems, there is only a hard core of about 100 who cause all the nonsense, so my JP mate tells me. For the amount of overt racism I see here, they're doin' pretty damn good.
> 
> One thing I agree on, we must evolve the situation from where it stands now, ... doesn't really do anyone any good except bureaucrats IMO.




I agree Wayne - If I faced the racist crap they put up with every day - I`d be a terrorist.

Following this thread I have read a number of disturbing posts. Posts that recall to me some shameful aspects of Aussie culture. Of these – Racism is the worst and unfortunately it is still very common. It's shameful to me because I'm an Aussie in Japan and I have to warn my Japanese friends who are invariably exited before visiting Australia, that occasionally, some Aussies might be less than friendly or downright racist towards them. 
I can only be happy that this attitude is less common than it used to be.

As a born and bred North Queensland Aussie - I would like to state my view here that any kind of racism is UNAUSTRALIAN to the utmost – because it flies in the face of some sacred tenets of our unique culture.

One thing Australia has prided itself on since ?? the arrival of white-fellas I guess – is the idea of 'a fair go for all'. I'm sure most of you guys find the term falling naturally out of your mouths occasionally. 'Fair go mate'. 'Fair crack of the whip!'.
But Disarray & Flying Fish.... have you ever really thought about what it actually means???????

ALL means EVERYONE... Thats EVERY PERSON.
It doesn't mean 'a fair go for me and mine and the rest can go F%$ck themselves!!!!'

It doesn't mean 'a fair go for people who look like me and anyone who looks different can go jump'.

Another idea common to True Blue Aussies is 'you don't kick someone when he's down'. Instead you 'lend a hand'. and 'give him a fair go... mate'. You give him a hand up and help him to help himself regain some dignity and self respect. Of course it's easier said than done but we have to ask... Have Aboriginal Aussies ever had a 'fair go' ... since we arrived?

The other classic is the 'rule' common' to almost every religion or belief system: The golden rule – Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself (ie. with RESPECT). The Christian version: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Sorry to say I don't see any of this great Australian spirit – this 'bigness of heart', nor any semblance of simple human respect - in your posts guys.
I only see the 'cold as steel' tough luck mate sentiments . 
A few years back, in Germany, the 'rule of the strong ma jority' resulted in the near annihilation of the weaker minority. It was a bit more blatant than is/has been the case here. But the result is not so different. Of course that **** happens all over the place – but it doesn't make it right. 

.......


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## Santob (7 June 2007)

Racism WAS institutional in Australia (White Australia Policy) - so to say racism is Un-Australian is not quite true.

Editted to add - things had improved a significatn lot, but the Howard governments fearmongering is taking that Australia back down that insitutional path.


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## purple (7 June 2007)

Dukey said:


> Another idea common to True Blue Aussies is 'you don't kick someone when he's down'. Instead you 'lend a hand'. and 'give him a fair go... mate'. You give him a hand up and help him to help himself regain some dignity and self respect. Of course it's easier said than done but we have to ask... Have Aboriginal Aussies ever had a 'fair go' ... since we arrived?
> 
> .......




yeah, but do they take the initiative when given the fair go?

I was deep in bush country Laverton, WA, doing community work with the AB population there. it's a mix I say. the elders had genuine concern for the younger population and were working with governmental workers to introduce programs/classes for the youth to better themselves.

I was helping out with the basic construction program, where we laid concrete slabs. Good program, lots of learning, but the youth had to be dragged there to do some of the work. getting into it for a few hours and they shot off for a game of basketball and never returned.

in my opinion, they do receive their 'fair go'. but they lack the want, the initiative to keep on improving themselves.

i'm not saying the whole population is lazy. the community elders were working at it. they had a vision. but the enthusiasm had not caught on.


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

The 2007 Young Australian of the Year is Tania Major, the youngest person ever elected to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. Major is a Kokoberra woman from Kowanyama, Queensland, and has raised awareness on a number of issues concerning the welfare of young Indigenous people, notably in education and health.







> Tania Major came to public attention three years ago as the youngest person ever elected to ATSIC. She broke the ice of public discussion about a number of issues concerning the welfare of young Indigenous people when she was featured on national television programs such as Four Corners and 60 Minutes. She made some people feel very uncomfortable, and was happy to do so. She spoke directly and very publicly to the prime minister and other opinion leaders about the appalling secrets of domestic violence in her community in the belief that the best way to represent her people was to tell the truth. Tania is the only person within her community to complete a university degree; indeed, she's the only one to have successfully completed Year 12. Tania has become a role model not only for Indigenous youth, but also for all young Australian's.


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

ok here we go ...



2020hindsight said:


> suggest you pause and listen to yourself there, disarray.
> specially if that'e your only answer /consolation / comment about the last time it happened.




so you think the aboriginies are doing fine by themselves and the current state of affairs with rampant substance abuse, criminality, sexual abuse and domestic violence is acceptable? if not, feel free to propose a new and novel solution.



			
				arminius said:
			
		

> the heart of the matter is, they have to assimilate to our culture. as you say dissaray, 'get on board with the rest of society or go tribal'. they have to work, get paid, buy stuff




glad we agree



			
				arminius said:
			
		

> as for not adapting, im pretty sure they did ok for, what, 100 000 years




yeah that was great for them. the world has changed somewhat in the last few hundred years however.



			
				arminius said:
			
		

> fyi, the japs never intended to invade oz, and the indos couldn't anyway




the japanese planned to invade australia as a strategic move to isolate america in the area, not to settle it. and the indonesians could quite easily move into australia if the only them between them and it was aboriginals living in a tribal state. however with a modern, western civilisation in place to defend it i don't think they could launch a successful invasion either (especially considering their army is mostly occupied with keeping the country together)



			
				arminius said:
			
		

> go and have a beer with Keith Windshuttle, im sure he'd appreciate talking to someone who doesnt want to smash him in the face




???



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> The presumption here is that we have a superior culture




no the presumption is that we have a DOMINANT culture.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> That the bell curve dictates superiority of races




no the bell curve dictates DIFFERENCE between races. your leap to conclusions has clouded much of your reply so i'll leave it at that.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> The killer paragraph is that you say humans must adapt to their environment or die out, that we must evolve to suit our environment. Well really, hear yourself, we have destroyed a people who did exactly that




environments change. yes they adapted to the environment at the time, now it has changed. evolution is not static, however the principles remain the same.



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> To try to compare the plight of Aborigines to these other peoples is not possible. Sure they had a hell of a time, but there are huge differences in cultural aspect. All of these reacted with activism of some description to get where they are now... and have had a lot more time AND weight of numbers to do it




ahhh so cultures AREN'T equal. some are more adaptible to extreme changes in environment and react more positively to adversity perhaps? glad we agree.

btw the irish potato famine was in 1845 and killed up to 1 million people. so 57 years AFTER australia was settled by white colonists more irish died than inhabited australia at the time. the holocaust which killed 6 million jews (6 times the aboriginal population in australia at the time of white settlement) happened only 60 years ago. and the opium wars happened 60 years after white settlement of australia as well.

so if the irish, jews and chinese can "react with activism" as you put it, and achieve a favourable outcome, we must ask the question why are large numbers of aboriginals living in abject poverty? we have had successive waves of immigration from europe, south east asia and the middle east, within the last 50 years, many of whom arrive with nothing and fleeing extreme trauma, yet manage to integrate successfully?



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> With Dissaray's logic we should all adopt Indians as leaders of the free world. They have, against all odds, become the most successful at adapting to their new environment




this is just stupid. while indians are successful merchants their mass migration has occurred relatively recently into cohesive, modern, established, stable and strong western societies, and they have integrated extremely well. on the other hand white settlers arrived in an australia inhabited by primative tribesmen with little cohesion outside localised tribes and no technology.



			
				dukey said:
			
		

> It's shameful to me because I'm an Aussie in Japan and I have to warn my Japanese friends who are invariably exited before visiting Australia, that occasionally, some Aussies might be less than friendly or downright racist towards them




i just returned from japan. my girlfriend is japanese. i am such a racist for thinking the way i do. protip: the japanese are more racist than us, gaijin.



			
				dukey said:
			
		

> One thing Australia has prided itself on since ?? the arrival of white-fellas I guess – is the idea of 'a fair go for all'. I'm sure most of you guys find the term falling naturally out of your mouths occasionally. 'Fair go mate'. 'Fair crack of the whip!'.
> But Disarray & Flying Fish.... have you ever really thought about what it actually means?




yes i have, but have you? the bleeding hearts have hijacked "a fair go" to mean we must all bend over backwards and accomodate everyone and everything and carry all the weak along with us so they can have the same rewards as everyone. i disagree with this assessment.

i think a "fair go" is a two way street, an expansion of the social compact if you will. IF you work hard, take advantage of opportunities offered to you (such as, oh i don't know, free education and healthcare perhaps) THEN you can have access to the rewards greater society has to offer. the "fair go" aspect means you can COMPETE for these rewards without having to fight through discrimination or have obstacles placed in your path because of your race / creed / religion whatever, which i think western society does extremely well. you ever tried to do business in asia???

i do agree with your following paragraph that when someone falls we pick them up, dust them off, HOWEVER they must then get back to work if they are able. aborigines are given preference in education, government jobs (native only jobs aboud in the civil services) and access to goverment funds. they are hardly being kept down by "the man"



			
				dukey said:
			
		

> I only see the 'cold as steel' tough luck mate sentiments .
> A few years back, in Germany, the 'rule of the strong ma jority' resulted in the near annihilation of the weaker minority. It was a bit more blatant than is/has been the case here. But the result is not so different. Of course that **** happens all over the place – but it doesn't make it right




your assessment of "tough luck" is inaccurate. i (and everyone else i would image) firmly believe aboriginals should be given help, however they MUST MUST MUST help themselves because we cannot do it for them. we have thrown billions at them and yet they languish. we must take a step back, look at it calmly, logically, raltionally and without emotion (like investing really) as ask the tough questions. i don't see that happening, what i see instead is handwringing, recrimination and attacks on people who try to do so.

p.s. grats on bringing in the nazi reference. it wouldn't be an internet discussion without it  i do admire your idealism though.


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## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

Disarray

You do not make sense.

Dominance rules?

So you would accept a takover bid by another country? Is that what you say? Afterall that would fit todays western culture, a sell out.


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## Rafa (7 June 2007)

I think the answer is apparent....
Aborigines need to start fighting hard for themselves using any means possible...
thats the way the jews and the Irish got out of their plight... i.e. demanding a piece of land i.e Israel, or going into the new land (America/Australia)...


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Disarray
> 
> You do not make sense.
> 
> ...




wtf are you talking about? i originally stated that people aren't created equal. i didn't say anyone was better or worse, just that different races and cultures were DIFFERENT.

then you jump in with the assumption that i am saying we are superior. i'm not saying we are superior, i am saying we are dominant. this means we make the rules, the systems, the game. aborigines can either play our game or go off and make their own, but if they want access to what our civilisation offers (first world living) then they have to play it our way. i don't know where you are getting this crazy idea that we should be taken over or whatever.

i do agree with you though, our culture has sold out, and we have become fat (obesity epidemic), lazy (needing to import foreign labour to do unpleasant jobs) and greedy (multiple cars, plasma tv's while complaining about mortgage repayments)


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## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> wtf are you talking about? i originally stated that people aren't created equal. i didn't say anyone was better or worse, just that different races and cultures were DIFFERENT.
> 
> then you jump in with the assumption that i am saying we are superior. i'm not saying we are superior, i am saying we are dominant. this means we make the rules, the systems, the game. aborigines can either play our game or go off and make their own, but if they want access to what our civilisation offers (first world living) then they have to play it our way. i don't know where you are getting this crazy idea that we should be taken over or whatever.
> 
> i do agree with you though, our culture has sold out, and we have become fat (obesity epidemic), lazy (needing to import foreign labour to do unpleasant jobs) and greedy (multiple cars, plasma tv's while complaining about mortgage repayments)




Disarray

You say we make the rules, we decide the systems, we decide the games we play.

So I am deciding, as the dominant force, that I really would love that aboriginal culture would receive more recognition and become more inclusive for all Australians. That we would be better off in every way, culturally, economically and in health, education and sport if we empowered the aboriginal people to move forward in their own way. That as a nation we would all be better prepared for the future if we learn and appreciate land management techniques from aboriginal people and accept they probably did have the environment better managed than we have.

So as part of a dominant race as you suggest I actually have the right to demand all this.


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

you does not = we

demand all you want, its everyone elses demands you need to manage if you want something done your way. might i suggest a career in politics, at least your heart is in the right place and you can't be any worse than what we have


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## wayneL (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> ahhh so cultures AREN'T equal. some are more adaptible to extreme changes in environment and react more positively to adversity perhaps? glad we agree.
> 
> btw the irish potato famine was in 1845 and killed up to 1 million people. so 57 years AFTER australia was settled by white colonists more irish died than inhabited australia at the time. the holocaust which killed 6 million jews (6 times the aboriginal population in australia at the time of white settlement) happened only 60 years ago. and the opium wars happened 60 years after white settlement of australia as well.
> 
> so if the irish, jews and chinese can "react with activism" as you put it, and achieve a favourable outcome, we must ask the question why are large numbers of aboriginals living in abject poverty? we have had successive waves of immigration from europe, south east asia and the middle east, within the last 50 years, many of whom arrive with nothing and fleeing extreme trauma, yet manage to integrate successfully?



Of course there are differences in culture... and you are still comparing apples to oranges.

The jews, waves of immigrants etc although experiencing racism as well, did have the advantage of an analogous culture. As I have pointed out, these peoples also have had several centuries of development within the judeo/christian cultural context to sort them selves out. Aborigines do not have that advantage. Their original culture is radically different to ours.

It was only ~50 years ago that aborigines were not even considered citizens of Oz. Before then they were basically considered and treated as sub-human. Many still hold this view... apparently  Therefore your comparisons are invalid and disingenuous at best.

That is a lot to deal with for any group of people and I'm sure that with time, they will sort themselves out. I certainly see evidence of this happening first hand.


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## disarray (7 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> Of course there are differences in culture... and you are still comparing apples to oranges.




i'm not comparing apples to oranges if all people (and by extension, cultures) are equal. are we all equal or not??? this is where the cultural relativists get their panties in a bunch - if we are all equal then all rules and examples apply equally. if we aren't equal then we must admit that fact which they refuse to do.



> The jews, waves of immigrants etc although experiencing racism as well, did have the advantage of an analogous culture. As I have pointed out, these peoples also have had several centuries of development within the judeo/christian cultural context to sort them selves out. Aborigines do not have that advantage. Their original culture is radically different to ours.




granted, but that disadvantage is being offset by MASSIVE assistance provided by the government which other immigrants have not had access to.



> It was only ~50 years ago that aborigines were not even considered citizens of Oz. Before then they were basically considered and treated as sub-human. Many still hold this view... apparently  Therefore your comparisons are invalid and disingenuous at best.




it was only 30 years ago that the first vietnamese immigrants landed on these shores fleeing war and poverty in their home country. they came from a radically different culture, they had a language barrier, they faced racism and they had access to only a fraction of the government support that aborigines had access to. yet vietnamese are now a strong and vibrant part of our social fabric. so once again i put the question, if we are all equal, why have the vietnamese, who were in a similar situation to the aborigines with regards to disadvantage, able to succeed while the aborigines do not?  



> That is a lot to deal with for any group of people and I'm sure that with time, they will sort themselves out. I certainly see evidence of this happening first hand.




i'm sure they will sort themselves out, keyword being THEMSELVES. hence the need for a shift away from hand holding and "enabling".

might i ask your first hand experience in seeing improvement in the aboriginal situation?


----------



## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> i'm not comparing apples to oranges if all people (and by extension, cultures) are equal. are we all equal or not??? this is where the cultural relativists get their panties in a bunch - if we are all equal then all rules and examples apply equally. if we aren't equal then we must admit that fact which they refuse to do.
> granted, but that disadvantage is being offset by MASSIVE assistance provided by the government which other immigrants have not had access to.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Dukey (7 June 2007)

Santob said:


> Racism WAS institutional in Australia (White Australia Policy) - so to say racism is Un-Australian is not quite true.
> 
> Editted to add - things had improved a significatn lot, but the Howard governments fearmongering is taking that Australia back down that insitutional path.




Good points Santob.  I guess I was saying that Racism doesn't fit with the 'fair go mate' etc Aussie ideals.   The government on the other hand - well - thats another story altogether -  phoney children overboard claims just before an election  and all the rest of it.  Can't wait to see the tricks in the next election.



purple said:


> yeah, but do they take the initiative when given the fair go?  .........




Yep - another good point. I've seen the same thing myself with young kids squandering great opportunities. But I think non-aboriginal kids are much the same there. Adolescents  often just choose to be with their mates - they even cop a pasting for being 'good'. And the mates will beat the elders  most of the time...  maybe they were just too young?

--------------

Disarray - interesting that you too have spent some time in Japan. Seems to be a few of us here.  Yes some Japanese are quite racist - there is a definite 'cultural superiority' complex happening here I think - especially with regard to other Asian cultures. I'm lucky being in Okinawa - people here are more accepting simply cause they've had no choice over the years of occupation.  I know business men sometimes spit towards gaijins in the mainland cities - I have never experienced that.  
As for the word gaijin - its a bit of a laugh really I think. I believe (though not 100% sure) the kanji can be translated as 'foreigner' or 'alien'. For some reason the 'alien' translation has stuck. Of course if you stay in the US (not sure of Oz) beyond your visa you are an 'illegal alien' - so it's much the same. I've seen shocked looks on Japanese faces when some official asks to see my "alien" card - and I raise my two fingers behind my head like antennae. All good fun really.

As for "carrying the weak" - then actually yes I think that is a part of the built in compassion of a healthy modern society. The alternative is to just let 'the weak' slip through the cracks and rot under the feet of 'the strong'.

*BUT that assumes that aboriginals are weak -* I don't believe they are weak at all. They are a strong, proud people and have much to be proud of. 
However at this time, in some places - they are coming from such a position of disadvantage (entrenched over many generations) that the 'victim' mindset/culture has set in.


 This is where we might agree!! - I appreciate your point about so-called 'do-gooders' _(though like 2020's - I don't appreciate the term)_ - too much of the wrong kind of help just reinforces the 'victim' mentality.  It's 'sit-down' money and grog that are the enemy now.   
 'Sit-down' (dole) money is the wrong kind of help.  It has created a culture of dependence, loss of self respect and problems like abuse and alcoholism.   
 BUT – and this is an important point - We - our governments - did that. Sit-down money is  a white fella idea. There are thousands upon thousands of Australians from ALL sub-groups taking sit-down money who do nothing but piss it up against the wall or buy drugs with it, abuse their families and then ask for more cash for food when the weeks money is gone.  
 Aussie aboriginals don't have a monopoly on that. 
Just as importantly - those who do make a go of it like Tania Major get very little kudos - at least in the media where it counts. Role models are important.

My  worth (...again!!)  
- would like to have a go at Julias (?) 'policy' questions later tonight.
 and it would be great to get some input from Aboriginal aussies themselves...  What do you guys think about all this kerfuffle??


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## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> so you think the aboriginies are doing fine by themselves and the current state of affairs with rampant substance abuse, criminality, sexual abuse and domestic violence is acceptable? if not, feel free to propose a new and novel solution.



Disarray,
this was your reply to my post that the stolen generation and their parents deserved some sympathy.

Can I just ask you this

How would you feel if your kids were taken away from you? .

and lets not bring in a lot of bs side issues .


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## wayneL (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> i'm sure they will sort themselves out, keyword being THEMSELVES. hence the need for a shift away from hand holding and "enabling".
> 
> might i ask your first hand experience in seeing improvement in the aboriginal situation?



Well I'm sure we good argue on what we disagree on and get nowhere, so I'll focus on points of agreement.

Your above comment I agree with, but is contingent upon whitefella not dis-enabling. This will be a problem (though gradually getting better IMO)

First hand? Have gotten to know a few here in Gero and a lot are trying to take the initiative to sort themselves and their people out. Some positive steps at least. They still cop behind the back racism though by a surprising number of people. I am continuously shocked by what comes out of people mouths from the most unexpected quarters.

This is where we should concentrate efforts I reckon... let them get on with it.


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## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

*We need to lift our game*


> The 40th anniversary of the 1967 Referendum that allowed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be counted as citizens should be a time to pause and reflect – have we really done enough? For Red Cross, sadly the answer is no. Red Cross acknowledges and accepts that past government and community practices, policies and attitudes have had a detrimental and long-lasting impact on the social, economic, cultural and spiritual lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and their families. These impacts are still felt today. We see it daily in our work in Indigenous communities. So collectively, have we really done enough? The mission of Red Cross is to improve the lives of vulnerable people by mobilising the power of humanity. While we have rightly sought to improve the conditions and lives of those overseas affected by wars and disasters, we have not done the same for our Indigenous Australians. The unacceptably poor health, education, and social indicators for those living in Indigenous communities means we have not really understood how to effectively support them and reverse the trends. They continue to experience the impacts of systemic long-term racism and discrimination. So where do we go from here? For Red Cross, we have committed ourselves nationally to work with and support Indigenous people and help future generations.
> Our work on Palm Island, Woorabinda, Lockhart River and in the major urban communities is but a small start. We are making efforts all over Australia through our Breakfast clubs, youth mentoring programs, alcohol and drug initiatives and community development projects. It is now one of our highest priorities. Red Cross encourages all Australians to take account of this critical humanitarian issue and collectively commit to supporting Indigenous Australians. Whilst the 40th anniversary may be something to celebrate, more importantly it should be a time for all Australians to take stock. We all need to lift our game.
> 
> GREG GOEBEL
> ...


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## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

The abuse of children and women is unacceptable. A recent UN report stated Australia has a huge problem and we do. Across all races.

Why, because we discard anyone who is unable to keep up with the money train.

Too many of us are in dissaray. To be honest.

If you look at Indians for eg. They are the most successful immigrants on the planet. If you think about it, why isn't India a successful country? They have the so called bell curve attributes. Because they do operate on "a who is strongest" wins. The rich in India are very very rich. The poor are very very poor. A perfect blueprint of a country for Disarray.

Now look at Norway. A country rich on resources yet a country that shares it's wealth and commits to all it's people. It continually tops best country in every survey happening.

So what model do we prefer?


----------



## disarray (7 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> They are not immigrants.




EVERYONE is an immigrant. they just arrived before whites, but after other aborigines. they are not an amorphous mass of blackfellas, they represent successive waves of human migration.

check out https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html



dukey]As for "carrying the weak" - then actually yes I think that is a part of the built in compassion of a healthy modern society. The alternative is to just let 'the weak' slip through the cracks and rot under the feet of 'the strong'[/quote]

good post dukey. i agree that compassion is the measure of an advanced and successful society said:


> Now look at Norway. A country rich on resources yet a country that shares it's wealth and commits to all it's people. It continually tops best country in every survey happening.




actually norway is in a shocking state with muslim immigrants. best intentions have created massive social problems which will lead, ultimately, to chaos and yes, disarray.



> because we discard anyone who is unable to keep up with the money train




its better now than it has ever been in history, however there is, as always, room for improvement.


----------



## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

Aboriginal Diggers


> Sacrifices honoured
> ‘...Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning. We will remember them.’
> And so the service and sacrifice of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander servicemen and women was remembered in moving Australia-wide Reconciliation Week ceremonies last week.


----------



## BIG BWACULL (7 June 2007)

*Beattie lauds Cape York Indigenous land deal Thursday, June 7, 2007*



> Queensland Premier Peter Beattie says a historic agreement has been reached on land use on Cape York Peninsula.
> 
> Mr Beattie has introduced laws into Parliament today setting out which land will be protected and areas that can be used for agriculture or aquaculture.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

Some of my favourite stories.

In Cairns an old whitey.

Trouble with those silly buggers is they drink under a tree in full view of everyone, we have the sense to take our bottle inside!

In Clermont,

At the Clermont Show a huge fire surged up at an exihibit and an aboriginal said. Jesus glad I wasnt by that, what they trying to do? char us blacker than we are already!

And Gundagai.  The whiteys move in and see perfect flat land. So they reckon good spot for a barbie and a few hundred houses. The local aborigines said, no mate bad spot. I mean what would they know?. Anyways the river rose telling us that flat land adjacent to a river usually meant a flood plain and plenty lost their life that day. The ones saved were by aborigines who had the sense to live on high ground and took to rafts to pull us out of the raging torrents.

Not sure who will save those on the Gold Coast as it is also a flood plain and if climate change eventuates it will be one almighty mess, however we know best so it will sort itself,  I am sure.


----------



## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

disarray said:


> if i was an unfit parent then it would be for the best. if i wasn't an unfit parent then it wouldn't be an issue.



you are agreeing with me then.   The stolen generation had nothing to do with fitness for parenthood.   You are a perfect parent I take it.  They could have taken your kids.  End of story.



> the stolen generation has to be put into the context of its time. people are busy looking at the policy through modern eyes going "omg that terrible how could we?" but the fact is the government and the church at the time  etc etc
> ...
> there is a lot of grey area and emotion wrapped up in the whole debate, and this emotion skews perspective..




Disarray, 
sure there is a lot of emotion wrapped up in it.   Try asking the people involved - they are the ones entitled to emotion - not the people who hijacked/ kidnapped em.  The only emotion they should have is shame. 

As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?

Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.

I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history.   A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.

Here (on another issue) is something from recent UK news:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1087592.ece


----------



## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

BIG BWACULL said:


> *Beattie lauds Cape York Indigenous land deal Thursday, June 7, 2007*





Big Bwacull,

Not sure if there is real agreement on this. I am not updated so maybe the state government has allowed a lot more than before when basically they said the communties could only use the rivers for eco tourism and non invasive fishing.

If they have expanded rights to develop then a good thing. Otherwise it is just a piece of paper, saying not only nothing will change but that nothing CAN change.


----------



## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> ...Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.



And btw, as for the possible if but maybe legal ramifications of an apology, 

Why would you deny them their rights?
Are we no better than James Hardie directors, etc, who would stall forever if they could get away with it?
(Or cigarette companies , puke  )

If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever),  so be it. 
If the UK kids brought out and "lost" to their parents have legal claims (on UK govt) so be it.
The legal system, and Justice are (or should be) blind.

Sometimes you'd think the law is an ass - and was blind drunk - but that's another story. 

The fact that SOME of the 1.9% of the current Aus population - who make up the AB's  (366,000 -  about the same as the estimated population of 350,000 at time of white colonization) might use their rights under Aus law, well - that's just ...justice. 

Same way we would holler if Forbes didnt get his justice in Sudan.


----------



## Spaghetti (7 June 2007)

2020


Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.


----------



## 2020hindsight (7 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.



likewise , good point, m8
we pay compensation - but only when we can't weasel out of it like a morally bankrupt decadent alternative to "the savages"  "we" Europens colonised. 

(starting way back with the Aztecs... not that they can be compensated since they've been wiped out - anyone see that show on Pope Alexander VI's mistresses - and his debauchery - and the the gold that ended up in the Vatican taken from those heathens in the new world  ) 

Lol, I love the way the spokesmen for church -  the CHURCH !! (whether Governor Generals or whatever) - even use the excuse that they can't admit to this or that child abuse or sexual abuse or choir boy abuse or whatever - because there would be legal ramifications. 

GOD almighty !! it is sickening !! and they have the hide to preach morality to the rest of us lol. !!

And anyone who pretends that the abuses that happen in AB communities don't also happen in pure crystal while society are (let's be kind) kidding 'emselves .


----------



## Julia (7 June 2007)

Dukey said:


> --------------
> 
> 
> 
> - would like to have a go at Julias (?) 'policy' questions later tonight.




Hello Dukey,

Thank you.  I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better.

There's a very fine line between (a) being supportive and being indulgent, and (b) being realistic and being insensitive.  Damned if I know where it should be drawn.


----------



## wayneL (7 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Hello Dukey,
> 
> Thank you.  I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> 
> ...



Julia,

One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it. 

One thing I've noticed... I've had a couple of friends who have tried to "help out" by donating their time and experience to develop A enterprises up around here and have come away disillusioned. The way I saw it, they wanted the As to embrace their way of doing things.

It's not what the As wanted or even asked for. LOL So of course they didn't carry it on.

The point of that anecdote, is that part of the problem is whitefellas policy/solutions being decided on their behalf. I mean FFS have you heard David Malcolm's  (ex WA chief justice) views on the matter? It's ridiculous. (God bless him, I know DM and he's a nice chap and sincere, but hasn't got a %$#^ing clue  )

We can come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they are their ideas, they won't embrace them. It will be an exercise in futility.


----------



## Dukey (8 June 2007)

So - to Julias questions... and good ones they are..



Julia said:


> Rob, thanks for your response.
> But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
> I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.
> 
> ...





Generally I would think *Enabling-Encouraging-Rewarding* of self help would be my approach where possible. Involuntary enforcement by law or  whatever would be a last resort. The elders are the key and should have legal powers to enforce their community rules - their way - within some defined limits. 

1. Banning alcohol.  A great step forward for aboriginal communities - but it MUST be the decision of the community, elders etc. Rather than enforced from on high (yes - patronising and probably a waste of time).  Government role could be in EER above.  
I guess one thing to consider is what alternatives to drink do people have out in the sticks. If you can't have a drink - what do you do for kicks? I've seen plenty of white bushies who guzzle themselves to sleep every night probably for lack of anything to do. I'd say it's best to involve the community in the EER system as well - so the rewards will be something meaningful to them as individuals and as a community.
Full blown alcoholics will probably need some kind of support services... so maybe there could be a kind of AAA (!) staffed by aboriginals to provide the kind of support/encouragement needed. Thus providing some jobs too.
Dunno - just brainstorming here....
Of course if you work your ass off all day - then you can just fall in the sack. 

2. Domestic violence is probably closely tied to alcoholism. Traditional punishments might be useful here and for child abuse offenders. A spear in the leg is a pretty good deterrent I think. Maybe the elder women could lead this with the support of elder men. Offenders could be shamed - but must be given a realistic way to redeem themselves in the community and regain some respect - otherwise they will just become the local gang of hoods.
And again - some encouragements for communities and reformed offenders.
(is there such a thing as a reformed child abuser???? - maybe not. A difficult problem).

3. Health.  Thats a biggie.  In the cities there should be no excuse i guess? Just need some trained nurses from within the community to liaise with local doctors & hospitals.
In the bush communities it would be much more difficult: Issues of nutrition; isolation; substance abuse; education... lack of medical services... man the list goes on.    Education of all and training of some basic medical staff would be my starting points. 
How to get the kids through the door of the school is another thing...??? Maybe a 'free learning environment' model type school system could be trialled. Apparently great results can be got from 'difficult kids' this way.

4. Unemployment. NO SIT DOWN MONEY!!   Unemployed must earn their pay - and it should be a fair wage for local community project work, with a compulsory savings percentage. Some for super. Some accessible after X years.
And as Wayne has posted just now - these projects need to be 'their own' ideas/needs/wants.  If they build their own houses - maybe they'll respect it more. etc. and get some training into the bargain.

In the bush communities it seems obvious to get them doing what they do well.  So aside from the local community jobs; setup/trial local industries/farms/ranches. Tourism services; Park rangers. Wildlife research assistants (and later actual researchers too). Citykid camps where city kids of all creeds can get into the bush and connect with nature (instead of  the playstation). 
Must be many more possibilities.
In the City communities - dunno - need adequate rewards for completing levels of education and training I guess. This should be for everyone - not just aboriginals.  But all disadvantaged groups areas may benefit from extra incentive packages, or scholarships?
----------

so there's a few thoughts.  Maybe some of these things are crazy. maybe some are already in place in some locations.  I'm really just flying by the seat of my pants...
any ideas folks??

Sorry it's so late - only 11pm here in Okinawa!


----------



## disarray (8 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> you are agreeing with me then.   The stolen generation had nothing to do with fitness for parenthood.   You are a perfect parent I take it.  They could have taken your kids.  End of story.




no i am not agreeing with you at all. "fitness" for parenthood is far too subjective a term. is it "fit" for a parent to keep their child in third world conditions when the people at the time thought they could offer a first world alternative?



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> The only emotion they should have is shame. As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?




why should people be ashamed for doing what they thought was best? and mitigating circumstances is a very convenient way to justify the victim mentality we have been discussing.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.




that is very short sighted and rather arrogant. i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but it doesn't give them carte blanche to act like they are at the moment. in perth and sydney aboriginal kids are literally running riot. the parents don't seem to care, social services are helpless and the police can't give them a good thumping like they deserve. so we should just continue to wring our hands and harp on about past injustices instead of demanding a reciprocal effort???



			
				202hindsight said:
			
		

> I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history.   A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.




dude seriously, let the guilt go. its pathetic.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever), so be it




there is a statute of limitations for a reason. how long into the past should we look to make amends? this is why the middle east is still such a basket case.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.




and our dominant culture has a statute of limitations so we don't have to keep flogging ourselves forever when something is found, in hindsight, to be misguided.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> we pay compensation - but only when we can't weasel out of it like a morally bankrupt decadent alternative to "the savages" "we" Europens colonised.




jesus christ .... you need a mop for that bleeding heart or what? put a lid on the outrage, curb those oh so tumultuous emotions and stop with the public display of disgrace. i harbour no shame for the actions of past generations, i look at what is happening NOW and how we can improve things for the future. harping out about the past does nothing but breed more recrimination and offers absolutely no constructive plan for the future. refusing to let go of the past perpetuates the problem yet you have the gall to say those who look at the present and future are the problem. you have a misguided sense of priority.



			
				julia said:
			
		

> And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better




thank you for the defence but its not necessary. i stand by my words and the outraged rantings of moral crusadeers don't really count for much, especially over the internet.



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it




of course in this day and age any criticism or accusation that personal responsibility should be a major factor in policy is deemed to be unreasonable, and becomes a launching pad for all sorts of counter accusations of bigotry, racism and other oh so nasty words. but its nice you can then turn around and provide justification for the current state of affairs and thereby continue to enable all the problems we have been discussing.



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> We can come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they are their ideas, they won't embrace them. I will be an exercise in futility




spot on. they have to take responsibility for themselves, face their inadequacies and failings and move forward. a bit of critical introspection would be a good start WITHOUT the bleeding heart cheer squad on the sidelines encouraging the rest of us to flog ourselves.

sleep well gentlemen (and lady)


----------



## wayneL (8 June 2007)

disarray said:


> of course in this day and age any criticism or accusation that personal responsibility should be a major factor in policy is deemed to be unreasonable, and becomes a launching pad for all sorts of counter accusations of bigotry, racism and other oh so nasty words.



True, it makes it very difficult to have a sensible debate when sections within both points of view, major on petty semantics. I was referring to comments like all As are no hopers, that sort of thing.



disarray said:


> but its nice you can then turn around and provide justification for the current state of affairs and thereby continue to enable all the problems we have been discussing.



Also difficult when comments are deliberately misconstrued for the exclusive purpose of debate, rather than discussion of favourable outcomes.

I need not explain this phenomenon, it well documented elsewhere.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

Bout time we heard from some AB's in this discussion... 
kinda relevant considering what is going on in UK, returning remains.

http://www.faira.org.au/lrq/archives/200102/stories/dead_rights_story.html

This is a long paper , and the following is just an excerpt (assuming I do this correctly, this should read down left hand column , then down right ):-


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

"*We are more wholesome over this decision*, and welcome the return of our old people back to the country from where they were robbed from their graves" Michael Mansell.

Personally I don't feel strongly about the bones  - but one things for sure, if these people want those bones returned, then we (and UK museums) have no right to stop them.

Just one small step towards dignity.  And "a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step" as someone said (Buddha?)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/NATIONAL...ing-home-to-Tas/2007/05/14/1178995050385.html



> Aboriginal remains coming home to Tas
> May 14, 2007 - 1:39PM
> Tasmania's Aboriginal community is expected to turn out in large numbers to celebrate the return of its ancestors' remains from Britain.
> Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre (TAC) delegates Caroline Spotswood and Greg Brown are due to arrive at Hobart airport with the remains of 17 of their forebears.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

back to post #427 , some thought provoking turns of phrase :-

Our beliefs become ridiculed, our confidence becomes undermined as a result of this cultural terrorism. Our people suffer from those who assume the power and the right to perpetrate the ultimate indignity - to interpret us to ourselves.

“Australian colonial history, as it has been compiled from early records is proof of nothing more than the fact that history is always written by the conquerors”.



> Science, despite its claims concerning the scientific importance of Aboriginal remains , has no prior right over the remains of our ancestors. Our moral claims to seek the re-burial of our ancestors and to control archaeological and related research must take precendence. Dr Alan Thorne, described as one of Australia’s most eminent paleoanthropologists, not long ago asserted that “*the Aborigines’ moral case is unassailable*”. *To us the priority you give at this Inter-Congress to either morality or science is a measure of the integrity of your civilisation.*
> 
> *Your science, your findings and interpretations which are rooted in your own belief systems, constantly challenge our beliefs in our origins.* *Our beliefs become ridiculed, our confidence becomes undermined as a result of this cultural terrorism. Our peopple suffer from those who assume the power and the right to perpetrate the ultimate indignity - to interpret us to ourselves.*
> 
> *We are all too aware of the fact that who owns the past, controls the past and dictates in some ways the social position of people in the present*. Our everyday living reality is a testament to the fact. We are also all too well aware of the fact that *one of the spoils of conquest as a necessary part of maintaining political and social control over the vanquished is the power of definition - not only over personal identity but cultural identity as well.* And again, it is all too obvious to us that, as our brother Kumanji Perkins has pointed out, “*Australian colonial history, as it has been compiled from early records is proof of nothing more than the fact that history is always written by the conquerors*”.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

disarray said:


> . i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but - etc .



disarray,
- so ?? where did this sympathy suddenly come from.?
Is that why you brand them "no hopers" ? 

or was that past tense?-should I say “is that why you branded them no-hopers?” 

You keep this up you're gonna have a cred problem - at least when you were pushing racist slurs (against AB's - not I concede against Japanese) you were being consistent.



> 2020hindsight :- Can I just ask you this. How would you feel if your kids were taken away from you?
> 
> disarray: if i was an unfit parent then it would be for the best. if i wasn't an unfit parent then it wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...



funny I would have sworn you agreed with me - and/or changed the subject.  You're a difficult man to argue with, disarray. 


> 2020hindsight :-  The only emotion they should have is shame. As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?
> 
> disarray: why should people be ashamed for doing what they thought was best? and mitigating circumstances is a very convenient way to justify the victim mentality we have been discussing.



because we screwed up bigtime.   Maybe you don't understand the word apology.  That's what civilised people do when they screw up, with or without the best intentions.

How much pain is it gonna cause to say 'sorry' for chrissake !

And mitigating circumstances is a pretty powerful concept in treating these things objectively. - even has legal overtones, not that it should  get to that. 


> 2020hindsight :- Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.
> 
> disarray:- that is very short sighted and rather arrogant. i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but it doesn't give them carte blanche to act like they are at the moment. in perth and sydney aboriginal kids are literally running riot.



already discussed the conversion on the road to Damascus – but yes off course the vandalism etc in Sydney Bourke Wilcannia etc etc (where it’s barely safe to go out at night)  is unacceptable 


> 202hindsight :- I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history. A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.
> 
> dude seriously, let the guilt go. its pathetic.



if that’s your best reply, its also.....  pretty poor 



> 2020hindsight :- If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever), so be it
> 
> disarray:- there is a statute of limitations for a reason. how long into the past should we look to make amends? this is why the middle east is still such a basket case.



Pleased you’ve clarified that one, and wiped off Johnny Howards last excuse for not apologising. 


> 2020:- And btw, as for the possible if but maybe legal ramifications of an apology, - Why would you deny them their rights?
> Are we no better than James Hardie directors, etc, who would stall forever if they could get away with it?
> (Or cigarette companies , puke
> 
> ...



no reply necessary, I think you just said it all.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

Julia
a few ideas for moving into a better future.

1. Only allow people with proven capacity to understand and contribute to the correction of tricky social matters (Rotarians, Apex Club etc or anyone for that matter provided they can also show that they have a philanthropic record) to run for Parliament.

2. suggest to em that they spend as much time working out the problems as they currently do making excuses

3. put em on "AWA productivity agreements" - no results no pay


PS I may think of others later - but right now, I'm off to work on site in the bludy rain.


----------



## disarray (8 June 2007)

good morning. back to the fray 



wayneL]Also difficult when comments are deliberately misconstrued for the exclusive purpose of debate said:


> disarray,
> - so ?? where did this sympathy suddenly come from.?
> Is that why you brand them "no hopers" ?
> 
> You keep this up you're gonna have a cred problem - at least when you were pushing racist slurs (against AB's - not I concede against Japanese) you were being consistent.




i never branded them no hopers and i haven't used any racial slurs in this argument. stop projecting some right-wing opponent fantasy onto me (or confusing my posts with someone elses).



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> funny I would have sworn you agreed with me - and/or changed the subject.  You're a difficult man to argue with, disarray.




i didn't agree with you at all. you seem to be having a problem understanding plain english which makes you a difficult person to have a discussion with.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> because we screwed up bigtime.   Maybe you don't understand the word apology.  That's what civilised people do when they screw up, with or without the best intentions.




i don't think "we" screwed up. "we" didn't do anything. the church and government of the time followed a policy they thought was the best thing to do, with the best of intentions. now we are looking at it far down the track we can see how it could have been handled differently. everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight hey? however various interest groups have since decided to make political capital on it and present it in such a way as to achieve their wider goals. welcome to politics.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> How much pain is it gonna cause to say 'sorry' for chrissake !




why should i say sorry? why should the 51% of the australian population who were born overseas or had parents who were born overseas say sorry? sorry for what? sorry for spending billions of dollars year after year to try and give the aboriginal people a standard of living comparable to our own? sorry for trying integrate them into our wider, multicultural that is barely a shadow of the white colony it was founded as? which, might i add, the original colonists didn't even want to come to because they were transported here as convicts.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> And mitigating circumstances is a pretty powerful concept in treating these things objectively. - even has legal overtones, not that it should  get to that.




granted, but mitigating circumstances is being used as an excuse to stifle open, honest and critical debate of the problem.

you are getting all emotional, projecting a sense of outrage about the aborigines plight while criticising policy that doesn't do exactly what you would do. this is not helpful. how about some facts? facts are always helpful.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/aborepresent.htm

- Aboriginals are less than 3% of the population, yet they commit 20% of the violent crime in WA.
- Up to 50 per cent of Aboriginal children are victims of family violence and child abuse 
- 90% of the women and 84% of the young girls had been raped at some stage of their lives (not by white people i might add)
- Aboriginal women are 20 times more likely than non-Aboriginal women to be victims of violence

http://www.crc.law.uwa.edu.au/publications/aboriginal_youth

more than 28 out of every 100 young Aborigines were arrested at least once in 1994 and faced an average of more than 5 charges each One in five Aborigines detained in 1994 was 14 years or under. Of these, 91.6% already had an arrest history.

For Western Australia, this difference is even greater, with the non-Aboriginal rate per 100,000 persons aged 10-17 being just above the national average at 28.1, while the Aboriginal rate is 912.4

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/madrid/issue1.html

Indigenous women were incarcerated at a rate 20 times that of non-Indigenous women

Since 1991, the Indigenous prison population has grown by an average of 8% per year (compared to 3% per year for non-Indigenous people

44% of all Indigenous teenagers are likely to be at risk of entering into poverty, compared to 15% of non-Indigenous teenagers

There are estimated to be 458,500 Aborigines and Torres Strait Islander peoples in Australia. This constitutes approximately 2.4% of the total Australian population. [2] Despite this, Indigenous peoples have regularly constituted over 20% of the adult prison population and over 40% of juveniles in detention since 1997

i could go on (and on, and on, and on) but i won't. other things i won't do are accept responsibility for the behaviour of these people, accept the behaviour of these people or say sorry for something i didn't even do.

i think this might be a good place to leave off and agree to disagree.


----------



## Julia (8 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> Julia,
> 
> One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it.
> 
> ...



Wayne,
That's a good point.  I hate people foisting their ideas on me too.
I've previously mentioned Noel Pearson who seems to have a realistic approach but his ideas never appear to bear any fruit.  I don't know why.

Disarray,
I didn't set out to defend you.  I was just getting a little tired of all the people who criticise any efforts that have been made to ameliorate the situation, but who fail to actually make any alternative suggestions.

As far as an apology is concerned, I recall John Howard - after the "Bringing them Home" report - said something like "It was tragic what happened to so many people, and I deeply regret that the policy, however well intentioned, caused so much hurt "  I don't know what the actual words but it was something like that.  He certainly expressed his sadness and regret.
I can't see what more he should have done.  It is appropriate that he should regret what happened, but imo it's not appropriate that he should say "I am sorry" in the sense that we say it when we personally have hurt someone.
To expect successive generations to wallow in paroxysms of guilt for ever more doesn't seem useful or productive to me.

I'm sure we've all made decisions and done things in good faith but have later seen that we have made an error of judgment.  Hopefully we learn from the mistake, value the gained wisdom, and attempt to do better in the future.

The generalisations which have appeared on this thread seem to me to be unrealistic and a bit silly.  It's no more true to say that aboriginal people are all no hopers than it is to say all white people are sensible and motivated.
I do a little bit of work in the community and see a lot of aboriginal people. As far as I can tell, they share about the same variety of traits as white people, i.e. good bits and not so good bits.

Dukey,
Thanks indeed for your ideas which - typically of you - are thoughtful and balanced.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

disarray said:


> 1. i never branded them no hopers and i haven't used any racial slurs in this argument. stop projecting some right-wing opponent fantasy onto me (or confusing my posts with someone elses).
> 
> 2. i didn't agree with you at all. you seem to be having a problem understanding plain english which makes you a difficult person to have a discussion with.
> 
> ...



disarray, If I misquoted you, then I'll say...
da..da
...
 sorry 

You've expressed some sympathy... and
I've apologised.

However we sure as hell don't agree on the level of that sympathy, and I sure as hell don't see how (or why) you would still try to justify the taking of children from loving parents (or even parent singular).

Who should apologise?  The Govt should apologise on behalf of the Govt of the day.  And the Church should apologise as well.  True, it is only symbolic - but I would propose hugely symbolic to the AB's.   Not much pain to us to apologise, and huge relief of pain to them.

And would probably have a marked effect on those stats you mention, imo.  

There was another stat you forget....
Australia is seen as having failed in this matter by 100% of our neighbours. 

yep agree to disagree.

"how do you judge an old man wearing rags, who says that he lived to the letter
alternative race or alternative place , it all would have been so much better" 

Be interesting to see if Buddha has a sence of justice - and brings us white folk back as Aborigines


----------



## Dukey (8 June 2007)

Just reviewing the thread which has been a most interesting discussion. Thought that this quote from BIG BWACULL was well worth repeating - especiallly given the tone of some later posts regarding the stolen generation and removal of children 'for their own safety'...

Nice one BWACULL (what DOES that mean???) - you do a good job digging up relevant stories, many of which are probably worth alot more than our speculations.



BIG BWACULL said:


> Making up for stolen time
> 
> Daniel Dasey
> May 27, 2007
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 June 2007)

Thanks for that Bwacull & Dukey. (and yes, I've wondered about the origin of "Bwacull" as well lol)
You know what I'm starting to worry about ?

Labour will apologise if they get in, -  but - unless there is (I fear) more  public support - the attitudes of many whites (29%?) -  outback in particular (maybe in the cities as well) will turn even more against the blacks (and/or ridicule them),  rather than permit what you'd surely expect to be a change for the better.  

No question there's more to this than just an apology - but that's still a key element surely.

http://www.abc.net.au/message/blackarts/culture/s853725.htm
btw, here are some comments on ABC's website from 2003...


> 2003's theme for the week is Reconciliation: Together we’re doing it. ”Reconciliation Australia has chosen the theme to reflect the ground- breaking work being done in communities across Australia, where partnerships between people in schools, government, private businesses and Indigenous organisations are showing what can be achieved when we work together for reconciliation.”
> 
> For those of you who often ponder the question – what can I do? You can celebrate this 8th year of celebration by attending events, talking about in your schools and universities, signing Sorry Books and participating in forum. Many events around Australia have been organised.
> Go to:
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

Just thinking aloud, but supposing you wanted someone (after the next election) to help change attitudes of the entire AB race towards us, and likewise us towards them..    i.e. to :-

a) HELP (even tuppence worth) "win the hearts and minds" of the ABs,
b) talk WITH them rather than talk down to them 
c) hopefully ACHIEVE a measureable improvement in attitutes across the board
d) for both whites and blacks - especially youth of each, where the black youth must be stopped from destroying themselves , and the white youth will be need the wisdom of Solomon  
e) because youth is where the future is at, and the present generation and it's leadership have simply watched this thing go downhill in all those terrible statistics we are all so familiar with
f) and you need SOMEONE who is in touch with these groups

then would you choose
1.  Mal Brough, whose recent negotiations with an Ab community crashed , just when it was crucial (not only in the cynical electoral cycle) to have a win on that scene, - crucial not only for the Libs , 

but more importantly, so that the OTHER AB communities would see that there was mileage to be gained in negotiating with the Libs, and maybe they weren't just paternalistically throwing them a few dollars without trying to understand.



> Mal Brough , In January 2006 he became Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FaCSIA). This promotion brought him into Cabinet.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal_Brough
> Malcolm Thomas "Mal" Brough (pronounced Bruff) (born 29 December 1961), Australian politician, has been a Liberal member of the Australian House of Representatives since March 1996, representing the Division of Longman, Queensland. He was born in Brisbane, Queensland, and was an Australian Army officer and businessman before entering politics.




or 
2. Peter Garrett, who has done gigs to crowds of adoring ABs  - and young whites, - 
- where as I say, the future lies. 




> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Garrett Garrett was educated at the Australian National University in Canberra and then at the University of New South Wales, where he graduated in arts and law respectively. He was a rock singer and environmental activist before entering politics. He became lead singer of the successful Australian rock band Midnight Oil in 1973. As well as its great musical and commercial success, the band became well known for its commitment to environmentalist and left-wing causes, and was particularly critical of United States military and foreign policies during the 1980s.
> 
> Garrett was one of the founders of the Nuclear Disarmament Party and stood for a seat in the Australian Senate in New South Wales at the December 1984 federal election. He needed 12.5% of the vote to win a seat in the Senate voting system, but a primary vote of just over 9% was insufficient when Labor withheld preferences.
> 
> ...



PS If anyones interested, in the past,  I've probably voted 50% Libs, 25% Labour, and 35% for minor parties like the Mathematician's Party etc.  
PS The above question is about..

who has the cred with the abs - and the future generations of "Black Elders" and "White Elders" to pull thing thing off.

Heck, here's an election advertising tip for Labour - Have Garret re-record this one 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxDDswhF0zY&mode=related&search= True Grit
Heck, here's an election advertising tip for Labour - Have Garret re-record this one


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

CYCLICAL ARGUMENTS around MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES

they have oh so many badguys,  'mongst their colour and their kin
and their youth are just a mob of sleezy louts
_but there’s surely mitigation in their circumstantial sin_
ah don’t come at me with wimpish easy outs  

_would you have YOUR daughter stolen, Mr Black or Mr White
taking some fool's word that she was living well
never knowing till your *Heaven*, whether she turned out all right
(when so many fought through institutes from *Hell*)_

look here I’m a perfect father, and it doesn’t (hence) apply
_but it does you see , they took them irrespective_
well the kids were all too backward, and a few of them too shy
_but they had a black child's purest brown perspective _

well of course they did, but damned if I’m say sorry, shame or cry,
_but this thing has been a boil which needs a lance_
crist man mop that bleeding heart of yours, and here’s the reason why..
they had this mitigating circumstance ..


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Just thinking aloud, but supposing you wanted someone .....    i.e. to :-
> a) HELP (even tuppence worth) "win the hearts and minds" of the ABs,




AN APOLOGY IF I'VE CAUSED OFFENCE

two posts back there I used the words "to win their heart and mind"
- My daughter's pounced on me from some great height. 
Apparently it triggers thoughts of tricky tactics kind
and only reads "control" in youthful light  

I wanted it to mean that we would shake their hand as friend
I wanted it to mean we'd share a chat
It wasn't any "prize" to "win", which doubtless would offend
that wasn't where MY "heart and mind" were at.

I promised her in days of Nam when we were so naive, 
'twas meant to have a pure and good effect,
but I'll 'pologise to her (and any here) before I leave, and 
replace it with "gain mutual respect" 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=99556&highlight=lawson#post99556
A Prouder Man Than You (by Henry Lawson) 



> A PROUDER MAN THAN YOU, by Henry Lawson
> 
> If you fancy that your people came of better stock than mine,
> If you hint of higher breeding by a word or by a sign,
> ...


----------



## Sean K (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Just thinking aloud.....



Peter G for PM 2020?

I've never voted Labour but was a member of NSDs party for a while, until she left. Still voted Libs though. 

I won't be putting in a 'change for the sake of change' vote in this time though, even though Kev's a nice bloke. Paul was right on TV the other night, they've got no cred anywhere else, less PG, IMO.  

I don't think either party has the balls or creativity to do more than we are for the Aboriginals. It's gotta happen from the inside now, IMO. And it will, but it will just take time. Give it another 100 years perhaps.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

kennas said:


> Peter G for PM 2020?



nope kennas, not PM, just 

Minister for EMAAF-a-CSIAAF-a-O 
(hi - lilly - hi - lilly - hi - lo ) 

Minister for Environ Mental As Anything FaCSIA and F***ups , oh yeah , and Oil 

FaCSIA = Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FaCSIA). , but you all already knew that 

I think he would be great - a morally driven man - what a refreshing change that would make 

Not that I mind Turnbull btw.  (At least he's a Republican lol) - and if the country goes into recession - he will be able to personally bail us out


----------



## wayneL (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> he will be able to personally bail us out



Not that he would ever consider such a thing lol


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> Not that he would ever consider such a thing lol



maybe some of the trading threads will come good, and us ASF members will be able to provide the finance to get us out of the next recession  ( sorry that's a Saturday night happy hour comment)


----------



## chops_a_must (9 June 2007)

kennas said:


> I don't think either party has the balls or creativity to do more than we are for the Aboriginals. It's gotta happen from the inside now, IMO. And it will, but it will just take time. Give it another 100 years perhaps.




I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone. Except themselves. All the apologies and forgiveness in the world isn't going to change a thing unless they stop their own culture from disappearing into oblivion. All that another 100 years will do is to kill them off altogether.

There are a number of problems that I see with the aboriginal community. Namely, their demands, needs and wishes are not coherent. Secondly, their problems are undoubtedly linked with practical problems caused by political correctness.

There was an incident a few weeks ago in Broome where a Queensland aboriginal was not allowed to play a didgeridoo concert because the local elders forbid it. To me, this would be a perfect example of social capital being built between the white, and aborginal communities. Instead, the decision taken further erodes it. From one perspective, the aboriginal community wants to be respected and admired. And on another, petty, tribal infighting ensues as it did here. How can a group be treated with respect when they can't even abandon stupid squabbling?

Government bodies aren't allowed to deal objectively with aboriginal communities. For example, because of previous problems and failings, aboriginal children are left in dangerous environments, as any action taken is deemed potentially racist. Until there is a consensus where the aboriginal community actually recognises its problems, and doesn't just label the subsequent action as racist, no help can be received.

And it wouldn't hurt if aboriginal communities promoted the importance of education to their people.

At the end of the day, dealing with communities is a lot like dealing with people. If people aren't willing to do anything to help themselves, there is never anything anyone can do.

I'm probably as left as they get on this forum, but the aboriginal problem is something i've never had any answers for. The solution has to come from within. No-one is forcing them to take the path they are taking as a community. And only they have the power to change it.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone.



one man's opinion m8
totally defeatist btw 

hopefully we'll all live long enough to see 
a) a formal apology
b) a change in mindset
c) major changes in black education, health, policing, justice ( palm island for chrissake - how close was that to a travesty)
d) aboriginal longevity (out of dark ages statistics)
etc

as for not being allowed to play the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one  (if you get my ghist)  -  like as if white men can pretend they act logically. 



> I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals





> and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??



maybe you can see where I'm coming from?

PS I used to know a girl, she was a nurse, used to go to WA  Ab communities to check for diseases (incl rampant VD ) - and ...
 they'd run away into the bush rather than be tested  

Question remains - is that any excuse to not try to catch em? - educate etc.  Seriously , these matters are things Aus should be ashamed of.  As I said back there - put politicians on AWA'a , no results , no remuneration - let's see if things didn't improve then


----------



## chops_a_must (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> one man's opinion m8
> totally defeatist btw



Just realistic.



2020hindsight said:


> hopefully we'll all live long enough to see
> a) a formal apology
> b) a change in mindset
> c) major changes in black education
> ...



a) Wont change a thing.
b) From what to what? You have to earn respect. And as is the case in WA, where the majority of elders are convicted criminals, it makes it incredibly difficult.
c) Getting them to turn up (to anything for that matter) would be a start, without having to pay them.
d) A lot of that is due to the poverty that they are in. But when, for example, 30-40% of aboriginal kids under 10 have STD's in the state's north west, it is a major worry. And there isn't much anyone from the outside can do about that.



2020hindsight said:


> as for not being allowed to pay the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one  (if you get my ghist)  -  like as if white men can pretnd they act logically.
> maybe you can see where I'm coming from?



Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.



so to agree, we would have to come down to a common denominator ...



> I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals
> 
> and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??



PS maybe you should tell the Govt that they are wasting their money.


> and the Reconciliation Australian website for much more detail on activities and study kits. http://www.reconciliationaustralia.o.../involved.html




PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island 
and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!

PS SHEESH!! am I fighting the bludy world here !!

PS - 
theory 1:- The govt are wasting their money (as currently spent)
theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.  

We seem to be going round in circles - Surely we can treat these people as "just-off-almost-whites" and maybe (sure with a few extra $ maybe)  the answer will magically appear like a divine biblical glow on one of our friggin heads !!


----------



## Spaghetti (9 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Hello Dukey,
> 
> Thank you.  I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> 
> ...





I think that is the point I was tring to make. We need to stop coming up with ideas. We just need to support and encourage and stop the negativity. The more we do the more we damage because it all sends a patronisng message. They are very capable of making up their own minds, we just need to accept the responsibility of unconditional support because we are responsible for the unequal level of support they have had. 

Example, Cape York. Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have. 

Why do people who treat their land with such respect even need national park status?, it is a concept made only for those who disrespect the land, us.

Now they cannot develop industry on this land and evolve their culture in thier own environment. So we didn't need that plan. More importantly they didn't need that plan, there was no threat. So we need to stop with our plans and simply support theirs. They are just a tad smarter than us in some respect.


----------



## rederob (9 June 2007)

Julia
You don't like it when I am critical, without providing "answers".

I have been "part of the system", and seen how it works.
In essence, the "system does not work, and it cannot work - not as it presently is constructed.
Moreover, if you and others understood a bit about it, you might also wonder, .
Let's look at an example.
(Remember that most government strategies receive ministerial endorsement after processing through a hierarchy of advisory and consultative committees.)
In the case of the development of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nutrition Strategy and Action Plan, the majority-Aboriginal working party was in effect a sub-sub-sub-committee of the endorsing committee: the Australian Health Ministers Advisory Council. This and other endorsing councils do not include an Aboriginal person to explain the complexities and nuances of Aboriginal cultural concepts, and thus revert to understandings distilled from literature or from their own perspective.

Currently most of the federal government's initiatives involve a "carrot and stick" approach through shared responsibility agreements, and the recent notion that if every aborigine could speak English their plight would be less dire.

I think the present government not only has no clue about making a lasting positive difference to aborigines, they have maintained their practice of "wedge" politics that divides mainstream Australia from any lesser group.


----------



## chops_a_must (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island
> and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!



I don't know enough about Palm Island.

Deaths in custody has been a debating point for 20 years now I guess. And all that the Royal Commission in 91 proved was that aboriginals die in custody in the same percentages as any other group, thereby discounting mis-treatment, it is just that they are over represented in prison populations, making it seem like they die in higher numbers.

There is often a direct link between lack of education and crime rates. We know aboriginal communities rate badly when it comes to education levels. So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.


----------



## Spaghetti (9 June 2007)

One of our fields of work is stone age culture (european) and of course back in the stone age we were also in the ice age. During this period man saw caves as fantastic shelter. However most aboriginals would not step foot inside a cave. It would seem an obvious source of shelter to us but few aborigines would venture in. Some did, for art, burial or a few reasons but not for shelter. They feared them.

This is a deep seated fear we have no hope to understand but  demonstrates it goes way back so aboriginal deaths in custody is easy to understand in that sense. Why all of a sudden would they feel safe in a closed in space after years of intrinsic claustrophobia?


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I don't know enough about Palm Island.
> 
> So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.



and the second step is for you to go to school and read about Palm Island 
(I try to keep up with WA current affairs after all  
and this is a Qld thing, and I live in NSW - as if any of that is important) 

1. Coroner rules a man Mulrunji Doomadgee dies in custody due to a kick to the back which split his liver / spleen whatever - 
2. prosecutor doesnt press charges on the policeman/(men) involved, 
3. Qld Govt try to give it the whitewash treatment - 
4. but after MASSIVE presssure are forced to ask Judge , Sir Lawrence Street, to do a report - he agrees there is a case to answer for  
5. finally policeman (Hurley) is on charges of manslaughter).
6. It comes to court in a month or two
7. Watch this space ( and be edumacated on the subject of black justice under the mighty white legal system )

You wouldn't understand , because in WA, it never gets past step ?  2?  3 maybe?

PS IRRESPECTIVE of the injustice above, as I understand it, a mother is spending 18 months in jail for throwing rocks at the police station after it was announced that the man in the watchhouse was killed.  

And you blokes keep quoting to me that the percentage of blacks in custody is high!!!

well hot diggity dog - you blokes are geniuses - shame you can't see the wood for the BLUDY TREES.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110616&highlight=hurley#post110616
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115585&highlight=hurley#post115585
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115781&highlight=hurley#post115781


----------



## Bobby (9 June 2007)

One thing for sure is how much money needs to be spent ?
Or is it how much money needs to be squandered ?
Or if they need  to be subsidized  for ever ?
Or would they be happy living like their predecssors ?
Or when are they going to except 
reponsibility for their own actions ?
Or are they able to be just Aussies like the nest of us ?
Or if they feel that they can't , What would they like us non Ab's to do ?

Bobby ?????????????


----------



## Spaghetti (9 June 2007)

Bobby said:


> One thing for sure is how much money needs to be spent ?
> Or is it how much money needs to be squandered ?
> Or if they need  to be subsidized  for ever ?
> Or would they be happy living like their predecssors ?
> ...





Booby

Those questions are for us to answer, not for them.


----------



## Julia (9 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Julia
> You don't like it when I am critical, without providing "answers".
> 
> I have been "part of the system", and seen how it works.
> ...




OK, Rob.  I appreciate the point you are making about the sub-sub-committees etc.  Typical bureacratic stuff.  And to not include Aboriginal representation in these committees seems especially silly.

So are you saying that you believe by including an aboriginal representative(s) in these committees a solution will be found to alleviate the domestic and sexual violence, reluctance to accept education, appalling health outcomes etc?

This ties in with Wayne's suggestion that nothing imposed on indigenous people will work, but rather their own ideas should be sought.

I suppose I had thought that all of the suggestions and ideas so articulately expressed by Noel Pearson would have constituted at least some measure of this indigenous participation.  Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?

It may seem an inappropriate analogy, but if, e.g. Germaine Greer, Betty Freidan etc  didn't get up and make demands for women's rights several decades ago, we women would still be accepting that our lot was to be second class citizens to our men.  Until Aboriginal leaders can come forward with their own clearly articulated needs I suspect successive governments will continue to flounder amongst unproductive policies.  

Imo the "fault" is not completely with either the government or the indigenous population.


----------



## Julia (9 June 2007)

kennas said:


> Peter G for PM 2020?
> 
> .




Oh, God!  No, No, a thousand times no!!!


----------



## disarray (9 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.




it is a load of rubbish that aboriginal peoples of wherever they are in the world are more in tune with nature and somehow mystically endowed with morally superior land protection powers.

australian aborigines were directly responsible for the extintion of the megafauna that once roamed the continent, and their use of fire as a land management tool is just another example of humankind manipulating the environment around them to improve their survivability.



> spaghetti]It would seem an obvious source of shelter to us but few aborigines would venture in. Some did, for art, burial or a few reasons but not for shelter. They feared them.
> 
> This is a deep seated fear we have no hope to understand but demonstrates it goes way back so aboriginal deaths in custody is easy to understand in that sense.




that is an extremely racist and innane quote. "aborigines are culturally inclined to fear jail cells because their ancestors were scared of caves." do you write this stuff yourself?


----------



## Julia (9 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> PS -
> theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.




I didn't ask anyone to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks.  I didn't mention petrol.  The reference to alcohol was with regard to my having heard an ABC radio programme recently about an indigenous community which - following years of appalling violence and sexual assault, with murder being almost an everyday event, the decision was taken to ban alcohol.  The result was a cohesive and functional community where the children went to school and it was rare for a woman to be bashed.
I did not say this should happen.  It seems to have worked in this instance.
As has already been observed on this thread,much of the violence occurs around excessive alcohol consumption.

All I was trying to get you to do, 2020, was to replace just a little of your bleeding heart with some practical suggestions as to what you believe would actually turn the situation around.

We have actually got the message that in your opinion all of us white people are bad and should be feeling immensely guilt ridden for what earlier  generations did.  (I, for one, wasn't even living in Australia until 14 years ago for heaven's sake).  But I simply don't see that all your handwringing and mea culpas are having the least bit of positive effect on the plight of the indigenous people.


----------



## Julia (9 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Example, Cape York. Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.




That will be why one of their communities has offered to have their land used as a dumping ground for radioactive waste then.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Julia
> you’re missing the point
> you offer people to come up with suggestions on what to do
> 
> ...


----------



## Bobby (9 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Booby
> 
> Those questions are for us to answer, not for them.




Hi Spaghetti,

I'm open for non Aboriginals to  answer..
----------------------------------------
Julia : Nice responce to Robs post.

Rob : Whats the REALITY of your thinking please ?

Bob.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 June 2007)

> PS and I kinda frown on blatant deaths in custody stuff
> (PS what's YOUR opinion there J?)



Julia
I realise you dont like reading long posts, 
 so 
I just repeat this one question (as I just asked Chops - except he had the excuse of being a West Australian where you can't use that one) 

What's your opinion of Palm Island. ?

PS Sitting on the fence will be frowned upon

(PS I'd ask Bobby that as well - except that would be a complete waste of time - he seems to be rivetted to that fence)


----------



## rederob (9 June 2007)

Julia said:


> OK,I suppose I had thought that all of the suggestions and ideas so articulately expressed by Noel Pearson would have constituted at least some measure of this indigenous participation.  Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?



Julia
Pearson is a champion of what is possible, yet his views and aspirations gather minimal traction with governments.
Pearson continues to "fight" for his people and his efforts can be found at:
http://www.cyi.org.au/
If you read through any of Pearson's stuff you will quickly discover that white fellas have created an "indigenous industry".
That industry is very powerful, and desires to be self perpetuating: Which cannot be achieved if aborigines do actually improve their lot in life as we would want!
In relation to your question "Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?", the fact is that many have, and continue to do so.
However, if you want "air time" your views need to be newsworthy, or radical.  So we usually only get to hear the more radical views of indigenous representatives - and we don't like them, do we!


----------



## rederob (10 June 2007)

Wayne, thanks for the editing fix

Before signing off for the night, if anyone takes the time to look at shared responsibility agreements that have been entered into, you might be afflicted with "why haven't they done that already-itis".
One of the first SRAs involved putting a petrol bowser within the local township (as the next nearest was 90kms away), in return for aborigines adopting hygiene measures.
After the hoopla of the announcement, and allround acclaim of what a great "mutual agreement" was reached the truth came out.
The local hygiene measures were already in place, but after years of haranguing the authorities, a clever Mr Sewell (from memory) decided that there was money in SRAs that could be tapped into and achieve something that had to date gone begging.
So the township got its bowser and the government got its good publicity.
SRAs beg the question of why such good or sensible ideas don't get acted on much earlier.
Maybe it's like climate change: It's only an issue or important when the government says so.


----------



## Bobby (10 June 2007)

Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking  etc in  S.A. ?  

Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?

And as for you 2020 H.S, Your posts are ignored & unread by many.

Bob.


----------



## BIG BWACULL (10 June 2007)

Bobby said:


> Hullo All,
> 
> I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.
> 
> ...



Its Sad to see bob that you cant except your aboriginal culture you should have opened your arms to your long lost relatives    heh heh Is it cause 20 doesnt write what you want to hear that you ignore the posts aahh well good luck with ya fish and chip shop.


----------



## BIG BWACULL (10 June 2007)

Bobby said:


> Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking  etc in  S.A. ?
> 
> Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?
> 
> ...



Were these guys aboriginal 


> *Mother and children in gunpoint car-jacking*
> A mother and two teenagers are recovering after they were car-jacked at gunpoint in Melbourne's south-east overnight.
> 
> The three - a disabled woman, her 15-year-old daughter and the girl's 17-year-old boyfriend - were attacked in the car park of a McDonald's restaurant in the suburb of Doveton.
> ...


----------



## BIG BWACULL (10 June 2007)

Maybe these guys were aboriginal 


> Saturday June 2, 11:36 AM
> Four men injured in nightclub shooting
> Two men are in a critical condition in hospital after a shooting outside an Adelaide nightclub.
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (10 June 2007)

Bobby said:


> Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking  etc in  S.A. ?
> 
> Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?
> 
> Bob.



Hey Bobby
I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.
What the heck, as BIG BWA points out, why should white fellas have all the fun


----------



## Julia (10 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Julia
> Pearson is a champion of what is possible, yet his views and aspirations gather minimal traction with governments.
> Pearson continues to "fight" for his people and his efforts can be found at:
> http://www.cyi.org.au/
> ...



Thank you, Rob, for that link to the Cape York Institute website which makes for encouraging reading.  And yes, this is the sort of thoughtful and practical comment which I've heard from Noel Pearson before and been so impressed with. 
So, do you feel the fault lies with e.g. Mal Brough for not offering Mr Pearson the sort of support he needs?
Your point about news media is well made and I agree.  The ABC does reasonably well but when the commercial media seems to regard the Paris Hilton farce as worthy of news time every day for the past several, it's pretty hard to be positive about their values and priorities.


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 June 2007)

You're right Rob / Julia, 
Noel Pearson is spot on - and I personally really enjoy to listen to optimistic people in these circumstances - you've gotta pray/ fervently hope  that he has the energy to keep it up until others of equal or higher talent can take over.

And obviously he has to spend most of his energies in CapeYork - and what about the Pilbara, or the Manjumups and the Dragemup's etc scattered about the west and centre - not to mention NSW and the rest of Qld - and the Redferns and ...?
(no one formula you'd guess)

Here's an extract from one of his speeches ...
http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx
http://www.cyi.org.au/WEBSITE uploa...sury_Passive Welfare and service delivery.doc
ADDRESS TO THE TREASURY ON THE CAPE YORK PENINSULA REFORM AGENDA
25 September 2006, Noel Pearson, Director, Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership

and Chops,  he even addresses your question of poor attendance at schools - linking family payments to whether or not the kids attended school (not sure what happens if the kids have left home ?). 


> Introduction
> Today I will talk about welfare, passivity and responsibility, and what needs to be done to ensure that welfare and passivity do not undermine responsibility.
> 
> Since I started my campaign in 1999, the term ‘passive welfare’ has come into common usage.  But passive welfare is viewed exclusively in terms of income support.
> ...


----------



## disarray (10 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I've written a poem or two about how important I think it is that we say sorry. (incidentally like 79% of Aussies allegedly also say)
> 
> Although I'm seriously wondering how is is that so many ASF members belong to the other 29% on that one !!




getting the figure of 79% of some newspaper poll is hardly an accurate figure. stop spouting on like you have some wider moral imperative to make us think we are all at fault.

and to be honest i'm surprised at the amount of leftist guilt around here. i thought a stock board would be mostly inhabited with capitalist rationalists, instead i find a lot of emotional crusaders. as long as we are all making money hey?



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Sorry Julia, I enjoy the freedom of exercising my imagination to tackle a problem
> Sorry if I dont play the game of putting up ideas so that you and/or any other self styled critics can shoot em down
> 
> while simultaneously you say you don’t know the answer yourselves !!!




no lots of us have many ideas, but people like you will jump up and down in moral indignation when we put them forward because they aren't "soft and caring and understanding". i think they need a good kick in the ass and be told directly what to do. i'm all for the carrot and the stick as a way of managing the behaviour of people. behave and get rewarded, misbehave and get stomped. it works for most of the rest of society.



			
				2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Sorry again , but I have a problem with "critics" - and for instance when the judges on "Idol" run their acid commentaries, I feel like mankind is a seriously sick animal




thats the problem. people object to criticism and so nothing will ever get done.



			
				BIG BWACULL said:
			
		

> Its Sad to see bob that you cant except your aboriginal culture you should have opened your arms to your long lost relatives   heh heh Is it cause 20 doesnt write what you want to hear that you ignore the posts aahh well good luck with ya fish and chip shop.




and again we see the "you're a racist" comments flying in from the leftys. don't agree with us? you must be a racist like pauline hanson!



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.
> What the heck, as BIG BWA points out, why should white fellas have all the fun




yet another stupid post ridiculing the fact that aborigines are MASSIVELY overrepresented as the perpetrators of crime and residents in our jails. but no, lets not look at that, we need to focus on how to not hurt their feelings!

i would go further and pull apart 2020hindsights ramblings but i don't particularly feel like wading through the walls of text and bad poetry the guy is churning out. he's on a moral crusade and will swamp anyone who disagrees with him with essay after ripped off article after poem so there's not really not much point talking to him.

simple questions -

why have all other migrants to australia, many with similar disadvantages, been more successful than aborigines?

why are aborigines 50 times more likely to be criminals than white people? not a little bit more likely, but by a huge margin.

why can't aborigines adapt to a western lifestyle despite massive government assistance when waves of immigrants from different cultures spanning the globe can make a success of their communities with much less government help?

instead of constantly looking at what the evil whitefella is always doing wrong, how about we talk about what the aboriginals are doing wrong. instead of asking "what more must we do?" we should be asking "what should they START doing".


----------



## rederob (10 June 2007)

disarray
Because you don't understand what being a "racist" means, does not mean you are not one.
Of course this forum is too politically correct to allow me to call you a racist.  So I will not.
You are, however, as ill informed as the many that think they know what is wrong, and what aborigines need to do to lift themselves from where they are.
Do you think that if the majority of aborigines had the power to do something more positive they would not do it?
Stuck in the middle of nowhere, no running water, no electricity, etc, etc, and you want them to be "westernised", too!
Anyone reading your post would think that aboriginals are the worst of the worst.  Far from it, although with a bit of grog, or too much, then we have a problem.  
We don't have "evil whitefellas" either.
We have dumb whitefellas.
Whitefellas that think if something works on Thursday Island, it will work on Tiwi Island.
Or if it works in Redfern, it can work at Bourke.
After 200 years we still label them all "indigenous" and try a one size fits all approach if the carrot and stick method doesn't work.

Julia wonders if Mal Brough is to blame.
No.
Howard is.
He thinks that "mainstreaming" is the solution, yet has no idea how this can be achieved.  Or if he does, then after 11 years in power, there is very little to show.

Why isn't Noel Pearson more influential?
He has first hand experience, fantastic ideas, and wants to be part of the solution.
He is one of dozens that are trying to make a difference, and very few ever do.  I don't know if the Quandamooka Land Council Aboriginal Corporation just got lucky, or they landed a few bureaucrats that had a clue.  But they are a prime example of what can be achieved.


----------



## Julia (10 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Julia
> I realise you dont like reading long posts,
> so
> I just repeat this one question (as I just asked Chops - except he had the excuse of being a West Australian where you can't use that one)
> ...



I'm not sure how living in South East Qld qualifies me to have an informed opinion on Palm Island.  I have never been there.  Any comments I'd make would be derived from what I have heard/seen/read and thus will be coloured by the quality of the media involved.

However, I doubt that any Australian would be unaware of the dysfunction which seems to characterise Palm Island.  I'm frankly reluctant to make any comment because I simply don't know enough about all of the causes.
I'd imagine alcohol is a prime problem and the precursor to much of the violence and sexual assault.  The little I know of the history of the island, i.e. it being used as a repository for "disruptive" people can hardly have been conducive to the formation of a functional society.  

The minimal level of involvement in the education system obviously will exacerbate the sense of hopelessness  which seems to be experienced by most of the people.  

The observation has been made on this thread that "people will live up to their reputation".  I so agree with this.  Most people will behave pretty much as we expect them to.  So if we continue to suggest to Aboriginal people on Palm Island or anywhere else, that they are not responsible for making progressive decisions, and reinforcing to them that because of abuses they have undoubtedly endured in the past we will never expect them to play a part in creating truly functional communities, then that is probably just what will happen.

But if what they hear is the expressed belief that they are worth more than the acceptance of a miserable, drunken, violent existence, if they themselves make the decisions to participate in properly funded ventures such as aquaculture which I understand would be well suited to the Palm Island area, then they have every chance of eventually turning the situation around, with the help and support of the rest of us.

It's the same with any of us, isn't it.  If I am told repeatedly that I'm a failure, have never and will never make any useful contribution to my community etc., then I am probably going to believe that and simply withdraw.  But if I receive positive reinforcement of any efforts I have made, and the continued assurance that I am of value, then I will redouble my efforts with pride.  

There are aboriginal people who have achieved a good deal in their personal lives and for their communities.  It's not impossible.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 June 2007)

Here's a link to a poem called ... da ..da
THE FREEDOM BUS / BIKE / ROLLER SKATES 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167936&highlight=convoy#post167936

By the way Julia , you misunderstood, I was referring to
a) the upcoming trial re the manslaughter of Mulrunji Doomadgee  , and
b) as I understand it (wish I could get more facts) a mother of young kids received 18 months in jail for throwing stones at the police station after the incident.  ( I did hear , I THINK, that someone else , since then, recently, was let off after being charged throwing or setting fire to the station or something - because of insufficient evidence or some such) .

http://www.news.com.au/sundaymail/story/0,,20487785-5007200,00.html
http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=50039


> After two years of investigation into what killed 36-year-old Palm Island man Mulrunji, Acting State Coroner Christine Clements yesterday found the island's top police officer Snr Sgt Christopher Hurley ..(has case to answer).



  I'll let people read it as they see fit.


----------



## chops_a_must (11 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> and the second step is for you to go to school and read about Palm Island
> (I try to keep up with WA current affairs after all
> and this is a Qld thing, and I live in NSW - as if any of that is important)
> 
> ...



Well, you can read the deaths in custody royal commission like I have.

Secondly, police brutality and violence is old as the police force is itself. And you can be sure that it will continue in the future. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, it will always be there.

I was beaten up by the cops a few years back, made an official complaint and nothing ever came of it. We had an incident caught on video a few Australia days back, when a cop was caught punching a member of the public. And a few days later the police commissioner said the officer did nothing wrong and wouldn't face action... whilst the journos stood their laughing. After massive media pressure, action was eventually reluctantly taken.

I can also remember an incident from my childhood, where someone was beaten to an absolute pulp in the freo lockup. It took a good four or five years for anything to ever come of it.

I guess my point is, that police brutality and violence is nothing special. It happens, and probably happens everyday - against potentially everyone, regardless of race. It's just when it is visible or against a certain community, it becomes an issue. Otherwise, it is hushed up.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Well, you can read the deaths in custody royal commission like I have.
> 
> Secondly, police brutality and violence is old as the police force is itself. And you can be sure that it will continue in the future. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, it will always be there....
> I guess my point is, that police brutality and violence is nothing special. It happens, and probably happens everyday - against potentially everyone, regardless of race. It's just when it is visible or against a certain community, it becomes an issue. Otherwise, it is hushed up.



yep- although I'd dispute that it's handed out evenly (and I also compared it to a mother of young kids getting 18 months in jail for throwing stones if you remember, still looking for the facts here, maybe she was let out as part of the political deal - or some attempt to "calm down those politically troubled waters") - which brings us to your first point on that Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody :-


> (Coroner) Ms Clements  : "It is reprehensible that the detailed recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody should have to be referred to, so many years after the Royal Commission. The evidence is clear however that these recommendations are still apt and still ignored," she said.
> 
> Despite the damning findings, Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson said there were no grounds to suspend any of the officers named in the report.



Anyway, nothing we can sort out here, and will be in the news soon enough when (if?) the trial goes ahead soon.


----------



## Spaghetti (11 June 2007)

disarray said:


> getting the figure of 79% of some newspaper poll is hardly an accurate figure. stop spouting on like you have some wider moral imperative to make us think we are all at fault.
> 
> and to be honest i'm surprised at the amount of leftist guilt around here. i thought a stock board would be mostly inhabited with capitalist rationalists, instead i find a lot of emotional crusaders. as long as we are all making money hey?




_________________________________________________________________

Well not really. I did not fit into the white male culture in the corporate world. I had the skills though so the market is a great place for misfits with math, in my personal opinion. Also I have a little of a gambler in me. Bad hey? 

I have also read market addicts drink more than average, die younger and have higher levels of stress. Maybe we can relate.

_________________________________________________________________





disarray said:


> simple questions -
> 
> why have all other migrants to australia, many with similar disadvantages, been more successful than aborigines?
> 
> ...




_________________________________________________________________

Simple question and a simple answer.

Aborigines are not migrants, I say once again. I see no proof. If a population radiates out from it's centre it does not constitute migration. Do you have proof those first peoples actually immigrated? Sounds weird to me.

Any people designated underclass status will have a higher crime rate. It usually indicates a dysfunction in the dominant group.

Also I am no lefty. Centrist perhaps.


----------



## Bobby (11 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Hey Bobby
> I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.




Hello Rob,

Check out the action in Alice Springs, were comming a distant second. :

Cheers Bob.


----------



## Spaghetti (11 June 2007)

Bobby, Disarray etc

If you do not like people that are so very Australian, more so than you are, then why not do as Aussies always say to complainers of our great country.

Go back to where you came from.


----------



## Spaghetti (11 June 2007)

My family, and also the families of so many I know came to Australia because they were oppressed in their own countries. This country gave them a freedom they never had before due to their race, nationality, religion or political beliefs.

They were not top dogs or successful in their home countries due to discrimination but they came here, were given a chance and made Australia a real success story.

Many of your families may not have immigrated too long ago and just turned up for even more dollars so perhaps will never understand how the egalitarian culture Australia is (sorry, was) famous worldwide.

If your family came here later I do suggest you take time to learn Australian history, recent and pre-historic, to understand. If you cannot integrate your views with this history then perhaps you should return home instead of destroying the very cultural basis that made this country great enough for your family to decide to make it home.

If you cannot undestand fair go, then go away!


----------



## disarray (11 June 2007)

rederob said:


> disarray
> Because you don't understand what being a "racist" means, does not mean you are not one.
> Of course this forum is too politically correct to allow me to call you a racist.  So I will not.
> You are, however, as ill informed as the many that think they know what is wrong, and what aborigines need to do to lift themselves from where they are.




call me a racist if you want, that word means very little any more because it has been overused. true racism is a belief that certain people are less human because of race. i don't believe in sub humanity, but i do believe in inferiority and superiority. thats the way nature makes us.

i can tell you however that there is nothing ill informed about the fact that I, my girlfriend, my brother, his girlfriend and several of my close friends have been assaulted by aborigines, it is unsafe to walk around my area at night because of aborigines, buses stop running to my area because of aborigines, and my property is constantly vandalised and stolen by aborigines. but it's all my fault because i am a white oppressor and i should apologise and keep throwing money at the problem without making demands to make this all go away right?



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> Aborigines are not migrants, I say once again. I see no proof. If a population radiates out from it's centre it does not constitute migration. Do you have proof those first peoples actually immigrated? Sounds weird to me




https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

aborigines are migrants, traceable to 3 genetic markers over 30,000 odd years. does it sound wierd to you as well that there have been several other hominid species in recent history that have completely died out? possibly exterminated by our own species. don't worry though, no one can attach any guilt for that to you.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> I have also read market addicts drink more than average, die younger and have higher levels of stress. Maybe we can relate.




no we can't. hopefully though we are both making a profit so all is well if we can relate there.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> After 200 years we still label them all "indigenous" and try a one size fits all approach if the carrot and stick method doesn't work




i don't see much stick in current approaches to aboriginal policy. in the judiciary sure, but policy? no.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> If you do not like people that are so very Australian, more so than you are




wrong wrong wrong. aborigines are not the ultimate australian or whatever you are trying to make them. they are just another wave of homo sapiens sapiens settling in a new and abundant land (which they managed to rape quickly enough).

what i did find amusing a while ago is that mosman council made a big song and dance about hoisting an aboriginal flag over their council chambers and the usual platitudes about reconciliation, reparations, brotherhood of man blah blah blah. you don't find any aborigines in mosman though. its easy to be tolerant of people (and judge others who aren't) when you don't have to live with them.

something relevant from wikipedia, where the channon christian case has been whitewashed by political correctness once again



> “Wherever multiculturalism goes, it brings Victimism with it. Victimism is an integral part of the multi-culti ideological package, and its practitioners, whom we may call Victimists, have two principal concerns: They invent fake stories and images that are intended to bring sympathy, admiration, glory and political advantage to groups of people who have been officially designated as Victims by the multi-culti establishment; and they strive to disseminate their fake stories and images in the guise of “history.”
> 
> The Victims are always groups, not individuals. This isn’t surprising, because all multi-culti ideology revolves around tribalism, the rejection of individualism, and the doctrine that a person’s primary identity is his group identity ”” i.e., the tribe to which he belongs.
> 
> ...




the channon christian case is a white couple being carjacked, taken to a home, the boyfriend sodomised and murdered in front of the girl, then the girl pack raped and urinated on for 4 days before being butchered, cut up and dumped. the media won't touch it though because it was yet another interracial hate crime and would put another crack into the multicult utopian ideal. while not directly pertinent to this conversation, the media whitewash of black atrocity coupled with overreaction to white atrocity is mirrored in our own aboriginal debate.


----------



## rederob (11 June 2007)

> i can tell you however that there is nothing ill informed about the fact that I, my girlfriend, my brother, his girlfriend and several of my close friends have been assaulted by aborigines, it is unsafe to walk around my area at night because of aborigines, buses stop running to my area because of aborigines, and my property is constantly vandalised and stolen by aborigines. but it's all my fault because i am a white oppressor and i should apologise and keep throwing money at the problem without making demands to make this all go away right?



no
the clever thing is to avoid risk
you have options
but you want to blame others
i guess some people are inferior after all


----------



## disarray (11 June 2007)

rederob said:


> no
> the clever thing is to avoid risk
> you have options
> but you want to blame others
> i guess some people are inferior after all




so while the aborigines aren't at fault for being victims, i am?

you are truly a blind sycophant



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> i guess some people are inferior after all




actually i cheerfully beat the snot out of them. too bad if this disappoints you. its good to see you advocate the assault of women, theft and vandalism to further your agenda though. well played.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 June 2007)

Black and white working together can win against a lot of halfsubmerged  lion and a lot of one eyed croc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89QnWL0f6kM&NR=1 Zebra Fights Against Lion.
 Zebra Fights Against Lion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI1RH1VhlYI&mode=related&search= Zebra vs Crocodile. 
 Zebra vs Crocodile.


----------



## rederob (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> so while the aborigines aren't at fault for being victims, i am?



Hard to believe that it only works one way!


> actually i cheerfully beat the snot out of them. too bad if this disappoints you



It confirms my every thought about you.
Congratulations for being such an upstanding person.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> i never branded them no hopers and i haven't used any racial slurs in this argument. stop projecting some right-wing opponent fantasy onto me (or confusing my posts with someone elses)..






disarray said:


> actually i cheerfully beat the snot out of them. too bad if this disappoints you. its good to see you advocate the assault of women, theft and vandalism to further your agenda though. well played.




Could be you're starting to get close to calling them "no hopers" there dissarray. 

Let's assume you're taking the piss. 

couple of questions - more of chops really 


chops said:


> Well, you can read the deaths in custody royal commission like I have.
> 
> Secondly, police brutality and violence is old as the police force is itself. And you can be sure that it will continue in the future. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, it will always be there.




if someone applied to join the police and said that genuiinely would it 
a) be a negative in their chances to being selected
b) be a neutral or 
c) be a positive. 

and if it's not a negative, why wouldn't it be.


----------



## disarray (12 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Hard to believe that it only works one way!




hypocrisy, denial, double standards. the apologist trifecta is in play!



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> It confirms my every thought about you.
> Congratulations for being such an upstanding person.




your judgements are irrelevant.


----------



## rederob (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> hypocrisy, denial, double standards. the apologist trifecta is in play!
> your judgements are irrelevant.



Anything to back any of your statements. disarray?
Or are you the kind of person we take at their word? 

I did notice that you attribute this to me, "*its good to see you advocate the assault of women, theft and vandalism to further your agenda though*".
Perhaps you can cite the reference for that statement so that I can see how quickly my stance has changed.

Or, rather than playing the man, how about returning to the topic, disarray?

By the way, knowing you are out there "snotting" aborigines just shows how far we have come.  You are a legend.


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> hypocrisy, denial, double standards. the apologist trifecta is in play!



Another straw man argument. Sorry, they only work on muppets.


----------



## Captain_Chaza (12 June 2007)

C'Mon ASF 
Grow up? 

Why is this sort of  topic like "Aboriginal" allowed on this site?

What has it got to do with SHARES
(if you know what I mean)

I have some great stories re The Protestants v's the Left Footers but I don't think this is the site for such rubbish

Trash the above if you think I am out of order?

I am sorry I have not read a word of the above posts as I am only focused on shares and hate to waste a minute on Trashy Titles

All I am saying is that I find the discrimation/SEPERATION  in the Title as
"REVOLTING"

You could always open up a few new threads if you wish  like ?

'What's it like living nextdoor to a Muslim?
What's it like living nextdoor to a  Mossad agent?
What's it like living nextdoor to a White Aust Protestant?
What's it like living nextdoor to a Left-Footer?
etc etc etc

What has this all got to do with shares?
Absolutely nothing in my opinion? But I may be wrong? 

Maybe I have just missed the boat? Again!
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 June 2007)

"GET ME that brass bound buggering box" 
roared the captain
"these cabin boys split too easy !!":southpark

you've had it too easy as sea there Chaz 
no controversy, lol - just cyclones and typhoons and stuff.
Ps this is a happy hour comment ok - think of it as change of watch or something 

...... (seriously this para)
BTW Chaz, each and every post here would presumably make each and every one of us think about this question - and the consideratino of the question, and the fact that it gets an airing is surely a good thing . 

and let's face it, it is the biggest criticism of Australia amongst our Asian neighbours, where I personally don;t know what our diplomats have to come up with to justify the present situation - keeping a straight face as they make up excuses year after year 

........maybe you could think of it like this - "If we can improve our international image on this, then maybe our balance of trade will improve, we'll all be rich, you'll get rich, - happy ending" - called win win I guess


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2007)

Captain_Chaza said:


> C'Mon ASF
> Grow up?
> 
> Why is this sort of  topic like "Aboriginal" allowed on this site?
> ...



Chaza,

Just let your eyes drift upward a few inches on the page. What is the heading? It's "General Chat" isn't it? That means general topics... which really means anything other than shares.

If you only want to read share related posts, don't come into "General Chat".

Easy peezy lemon sqeezy?


----------



## disarray (12 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> Another straw man argument. Sorry, they only work on muppets.




just as well the muppets leave a paper trail

allow me to present - double standards. in response to my point that my family, friends and property are under a state of constant seige (and have been violently assaulted) by aborigines in southern sydney, this was met with ... 



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> the clever thing is to avoid risk you have options




such as moving away from aborigines maybe? why should this be necessary if aborigines aren't a problem? or how about not going out at night time? spending yet more money on security to protect my belongings?

second item - denial. with regards to aborigines massive overrepresentation in crime statistics the point is met with 



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.
> What the heck, as BIG BWA points out, why should white fellas have all the fun




implying of course that white people are far more criminally inclined and aborigines are merely trying to keep up with the criminal joneses. unfortunately there are a raft of facts and statistics (some of which i have already posted) that show aboriginies are far far far more likely to commit criminal acts than white people.

as an interesting side note the attorney generals department has finished compiling a criminal statistics report but it won't be released to the public because it contains what we already know, but the multi-cult industry doesn't want it debated. namely that white people are massively overrepresented as victims of crime and minorities are massively overrepresented as perpetrators of crime.

finally i present hypocrisy. 



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> Get rid of all the interlopers that arrived since the 1800s, stole their land, indroduced diseases and did a few other things that not many would be too proud aout. Hows that for a plan!




would you care to include the 51% of australians who were born overseas or are first generation? no, i didn't think so. how about the descendents of convicts who didn't have a choice to come here either?

straw men sometimes have a framework wayneL.



			
				Captain_Chaza said:
			
		

> What has this all got to do with shares?
> Absolutely nothing in my opinion? But I may be wrong?




this is the general board. feel free to not take part in this discussion.

i wonder how many of you people actually live near or with aboriginals? once again its easy to sit back and cast judgements at people and have all the good intentions in the world when the reality is no where near you.


----------



## greggy (12 June 2007)

Captain_Chaza said:


> C'Mon ASF
> Grow up?
> 
> Why is this sort of  topic like "Aboriginal" allowed on this site?
> ...




Hi Captain Chaza,

It must be getting a bit rough at sea...Better to stay off the rum to avoid a mutiny.This is definitely the General Chat part.  You could always start your own General Chat thread too if you want to. This is a democracy you know.


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> i wonder how many of you people actually live near or with aboriginals? once again its easy to sit back and cast judgements at people and have all the good intentions in the world when the reality is no where near you.



I live in Geraldton mate. There's heaps of them here.


----------



## disarray (12 June 2007)

so your view from the ground is .... ?

from my experience they were out of control in northbridge, and even worse now i'm back in southern sydney.


----------



## greggy (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> just as well the muppets leave a paper trail
> 
> allow me to present - double standards. in response to my point that my family, friends and property are under a state of constant seige (and have been violently assaulted) by aborigines in southern sydney, this was met with ...
> 
> ...



I can only speak about my own experiences.  I have worked with 3 people with an Aboriginal background, 2 of whom were from the stolen gneration.  To have been taken away from their parents just because they were Aboriginees was a disgusting government policy. They are nice people and have gone out with them.  One of them came from far away just to be at my wedding.  Its doesn't pay to generalise.  I would like to see a national summit to deal with certain issues affecting the Aboriginal community.  Its time to bring this country closer together.  We are still the lucky country.  
P.S. I'm not having a go at anyone, just relaying my own experiences.


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2007)

disarray said:


> so your view from the ground is .... ?
> 
> from my experience they were out of control in northbridge, and even worse now i'm back in southern sydney.



There's a hard core of bad'uns. Usual problems with alchohol etc. Most are making an effort to navigate through life as best they can.

We know a few socially. Apart from colour (and a bit of sensitivity about it), they are pretty much like everyone else in a given set of circumstances.

Their sensitivity about colour issues is made up for in that they tend to be more loyal as friends.


----------



## Captain_Chaza (12 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> I live in Geraldton mate. There's heaps of them here.




Well officer Wayne

You probably wouldn't believe this but
My nextdoor nieighbours and great friends were two Aboriginal kids

It was in the mid 1950's then when it was considered by childless couples to act as good samaritans and  take care /bring up as there own any aboriginal child they thought was disadvantaged  

The "Doyles" were an amazing and lovely couple
They adopted these 2 children (Aboriginals) and were always better dressed than  me, better fed and then even better educated


I think those two kids were very well looked after in those days and the Doyles should never be accused of a Stolen Generation
Their Aboriginal parent at the time was totally incompetant and backward in all forms of family life as understood by modern man . 

Good onya Mr and Mrs Doyle
I know you did the "RIGHT THING" and brought them up to be great little human beings

Crikey! I used to call them 
"The Gifted Generation" not the 'Stolen Ones"

Salute and Gods speed


----------



## Bobby (12 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> There's a hard core of bad'uns. Usual problems with alchohol etc. Most are making an effort to navigate through life as best they can.




Hello Wayne,

Sure there is good & bad, but what sh*ts me off about some so called Aboriginals is the  ones with just a touch of aboriginality who take advantage of all thats avaliable to real aboriginals.

I had an interest in a large bottle shop- drive in type, we got hit that often by groups of these types, always at slack times when only one staff member was there.
The cops could do little about theft & threats if any form of aboriginals were involved, politics ?
Interesting is that the more pure ones were just good customers ! 

Cheers Bob.


----------



## rederob (12 June 2007)

disarray
You don't have a good grasp of many things, do you.
Context would be right up there, along with compassion.
In relation to arrests and incarceration, aboriginals do have a high rate, related mostly to drunkenness and assault (the two most often going together).  The data is somewhat skewed, however, as in aboriginal communities the simplest solution for drunkenness is often incarceration whereas in urban Australia a caution is generally all that is needed.
However, most assaults by aborigines are against aborigines.  In fact ABS data shows aborigines twice as likely to be assaulted (as perceived or actual "victims") as non-indigenous people.
Not surprisingly, most aboriginal perpetrators have low education levels (significant proportion has not achieved year 10) and are unemployed.
And when we look at crime data for non-indigenous we find the same trend.
So it seems when we boil down the down the data and compare like for like, there is very little difference.
Context: Joke: Aboriginals are significantly under represented in white collar crime. (Also a fact!)


----------



## disarray (12 June 2007)

look rob its you who is clueless. you are off tripping with the fairies in some myopic utopia where things are black and white, the poor aborigines are having a hard time and should be excused for their behaviour and the white man should shoulder all this guilt for doing nothing more than continuing the evolution of human history. its crap and i'm not buying into it.

you are spouting off totally irrelevant points about aborigines beating on other aborigines. well duh. but they aren't the ones footing the bill or bearing the guilt for all of this are they? and token examples aside the aboriginal population has not stood up and made a critical self-evaluation of their society.

and aborigines don't have a "high" rate of criminality. they have a MASSIVE rate of criminality. one in 4 aboriginal youths having criminal records isn't just a slight hiccup, it points to a deep seated fundamental problem with their entire culture, and it must be addressed as its the wider society paying for it in both monetary and victim terms.

your point ...



> So it seems when we boil down the down the data and compare like for like, there is very little difference




is complete rubbish and i dismiss it completely. you will find in study after study the same finding that there is a huge difference between rates of criminality among aborigines compared to the wider population. jesus christ, 1 in 3 WA prisoners are aboriginal but they are only a fraction of the population, and its even worse in NT where 2 out of 3 are aboriginal.

as long as people like you and hindsight continue to wring your hands and tiptoe around the issues for fear of causing offence to people then nothing will be solved and the aborigines will continue to languish in the pathetic straits they find themselves in.

while i respect your idealism and know that your intentions are good (much like the government and church during the "stolen generation") you are part of the problem. quit your bleating, stop being so emotional and act upon facts, statistics and logic. then maybe we can bring them into wider society and find them posting their opinions on boards like this (while making a pile of cash).


----------



## Julia (12 June 2007)

rederob said:


> disarray
> Not surprisingly, most aboriginal perpetrators have low education levels (significant proportion has not achieved year 10) and are unemployed.




Given this fact, then, why wouldn't you be supportive of any government initiatives which will encourage the children to attend school?

My apologies if it was 2020 and not you, Rob, who was critical of the government paying families for the children to attend school.  Doesn't matter really.  I'd be interested in the response from either of you.
That's not to say I think parents should be paid if their children go to school:  just compare this notion with HECS fees, but if that's the only way these children have a chance of some education, then it's imo better than nothing.


----------



## Julia (12 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> Chaza,
> 
> 
> Easy peezy lemon sqeezy?




I'm not quite sure why, but this really made me laugh.  Just right, Wayne.


----------



## arminius (12 June 2007)

after everything that has been discussed on this forum, there are still a few who just dont get it. and probably never will. 
the crime, drunkenness, violence and abuse is the end result of a deep seated problem- a clash of cultures. 
our history has developed another problem- resentment.
because this lingers, many are afflicted by another deep problem- lack of hope.
those of you who look down your nose at anyone who cares for someone other than themselves, good luck with your life. 
there are others who recognise the need to do something, however small, to rectify a huge humanitarian problem. we may not know the answers, but giving a shiit is a good beginning. 

for the record, i read 2020's poems and think they are cool.


----------



## rederob (12 June 2007)

disarray
Study after study shows that unemployment and poor education in most nations leads to high rates of crime.
You really have trouble with that notion, don't you.
You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community.  You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".  
Truth be known, if you had a paddy wagon trolling our local streets at the same intensity that they patrol aboriginal communities, and locked *all *drunken folk up, then I reckon we (whitefellas) would come off pretty poorly.
I don't condone crime, irrespective of race.
But abusing data you don't understand, and not being able to relate the data to the subject matter is irresponsible and deceitful.
I'll give you one example.
Locking up the same few aboriginals in a small community week after week gives the statistical impression that crime is rife in that community when annualised data is interpreted.  The reality may well be that there is little crime outside of a small group of regular troublemakers.
Aggregating similar data leads to the same conclusion.
The media are great at sensationalising any infraction from our minorities, be they black, white or brindle.
And folk like you are suckered into believing it's all as bad as the media make out.

You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.


----------



## Bobby (12 June 2007)

rederob said:


> disarray
> You don't have a good grasp of many things, do you.
> Context would be right up there, along with compassion.
> In relation to arrests and incarceration, aboriginals do have a high rate, related mostly to drunkenness and assault (the two most often going together).  The data is somewhat skewed, however, as in aboriginal communities the simplest solution for drunkenness is often incarceration whereas in urban Australia a caution is generally all that is needed.
> ...




Rob please ,
Are you talking about real Aboriginals or part aboriginals ?
beleave me there is a seperation somewhere ..
Be a bit more easy on disarray, Id'e like to here more of his thoughts.

Your  last statment - white collar crime, as the original abo'riginals didn't have the mental ability to progress past hunter & gather over thousands of years I do see your point ..: as you said Joke.


Have Fun Bobby.


----------



## disarray (12 June 2007)

rederob said:


> disarray
> Study after study shows that unemployment and poor education in most nations leads to high rates of crime.




i agree. which brings us to the point - why are aborigines more likely to be unemployed and poorly educated, despite free education, priority for government jobs and numerous other "affirmative action" policies specific to aborigines alone??



> You really have trouble with that notion, don't you.




get over yourself



> You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community.  You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".




well considering a great many crimes go unreported this "statistical bias" would be skewed even further towards the fact that aborigines are doing themselves a great deal of harm wouldn't it?

hows about findings from UWA criminal research centre that found that one in five assaults, one in three robberies, more than one in three homicides and about one in ten sexual offences are inter-racial. About 93% of those involve Aboriginal offenders and non-Aboriginal victims.

but yes i agree, aborigines do far more harm than this to each other.



> Truth be known, if you had a paddy wagon trolling our local streets at the same intensity that they patrol aboriginal communities, and locked *all *drunken folk up, then I reckon we (whitefellas) would come off pretty poorly.




blah blah blah unsubstantiated crap. how about this -

Judges sentence Aboriginals to 43% shorter jail terms than the rest of the population. If you are an Aboriginal felon then you can expect a jail term 42.8% shorter than a non- Aboriginal convicted for the same offence. The median aggregate sentence length for all offences for Aboriginals is 2 years, versus 3 years and 6 months for non-Aboriginals.

source - Source: Australian Institute of Criminology, November 1999. Data derived from  Prisoners in Australia (ABS 1998)



> But abusing data you don't understand, and not being able to relate the data to the subject matter is irresponsible and deceitful.
> Locking up the same few aboriginals in a small community week after week gives the statistical impression that crime is rife in that community when annualised data is interpreted.  The reality may well be that there is little crime outside of a small group of regular troublemakers.




how about we do away with the "may well be" crap and focus on substnatiated facts shall we?

http://www.crc.law.uwa.edu.au/publications/aboriginal_youth



> The media are great at sensationalising any infraction from our minorities, be they black, white or brindle.
> And folk like you are suckered into believing it's all as bad as the media make out.




actually i have consistently quoted reputable sources such as the UWA Crime Research Centre, Australian Institute of Criminology Papers, and the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission. your sources of information, besides your backside, are ...?

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti13.pdf

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/madrid/issue1.html



> You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
> The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.




thank you come again.

p.s. google > you


----------



## rederob (12 June 2007)

Using data as much as 20 years old does not cut it.
And you still don't understand the limitations of the data you quote.

Just so that you get some perspective, this is taken from one of your links:


> The Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody concluded that the over-representation of Indigenous people in the criminal justice system is inextricably linked to their socio-economic status. The Report found that ‘the single significant contributing factor to incarceration is the disadvantaged and unequal position of Aboriginal people in Australian society in every way, whether socially, economically or culturally.’ [27]
> 
> Indigenous Australians remain the most disadvantaged of all Australians. There are clear disparities between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians across all indicators of quality of life. In August 2000, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights expressed concern ‘that, despite the efforts and achievements of the State party, the indigenous populations of Australia continue to be at a comparative disadvantage in the enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights, particularly in the field of employment, housing, health and education’.




Elsewhere in your links there is a statistic showing that 50% of incarcerations in the Kimberley region are alcohol related.  As I said, a small number of repeat offenders can significantly distort perceptions of reality.  

And you contend that this group has so many advantages through their aboriginality. Shorter jail sentences it seems.


----------



## Bobby (13 June 2007)

Disarray has confirmed his facts, I suggest that those who wish to state their comments do the  same !

As for facts :  Whats the murder capital of Australia ? its the same place that needs 4 times the normal policing per population cap ?

Hint- big aboriginal population.
Where is it ?

Whities are leaving in droves.
look for the media reports soon.

Reality Bob.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 June 2007)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168620&highlight=stew#post168620 
just a quick poem - trying to accentuate a few positives.
speaking of facts - does anyone doubt that this situation , crime rates, substance abuse etc, murder, suicides, police brutality (Northbridge, Redfern whereever), is going downhill? - by which I mean the numbers are going up? (although as Chops said, police brutality has been around since the Rum Rebellion - just these days we all tend to use metho and  "sophisticated stuff" like crack instead of Rum )

And hence wouldn't you suspect we should change our ways somewhere? twig the steering here or there?
Like someone predicted about the new Carriageworks Opera House in South Sydney, you'll come out of the opera house in your tuxedo, and you get beaten up on your way to the car.  Hardly makes for a fun night out.   (but to be fair, the NSW govt have tried to include the Abs in getting that thing built, (a stipulation of building contracts) and hopefully it will also be a positive - not that the Abs are likely to go see Aida I guess. .


----------



## disarray (13 June 2007)

rederob said:


> Using data as much as 20 years old does not cut it.
> And you still don't understand the limitations of the data you quote.




well i would like to use more recent data but unfortunately the recent attorney general report has been suppressed by the forces of political correctness. however you have yet to provide any evidence to back up any of your claims.

yes you say i'm not interpreting the data correctly because the same aborigines are being arrested over and over again. well the same 25% of their juvenile population acting like criminals over and over again will do that. it doesn't change the fact that in WA 1 in 4 youth are repeat criminals or in NT 2 in 3 prisoners are aboriginal.

as for your report quote, that is exactly my point. aborigines are disadvantaged and hold unequal position in their society. once again, for the millionth time this discussion, is ask WHY?

why, despite billions of government dollars, free education and priority for government employment do aborigines continue to languish so far behind the rest of the country?

try and stick to the point instead of just trying to naysay and twist every fact i give you.  



> And you contend that this group has so many advantages through their aboriginality. Shorter jail sentences it seems.




and free money. and free housing. and free healthcare. and free education. and priority placement for government jobs.


----------



## nioka (13 June 2007)

disarray said:
			
		

> and free money. and free housing. and free healthcare. and free education. and priority placement for government jobs.




Don't forget land rights to a very large portion of Aust with mining royalties in the millions and the ability to hinder mining development. Also the right to fish without a licence,free entry to national parks, the right to eat turtle and hunt native animals. etc etc etc.


----------



## greggy (13 June 2007)

Captain_Chaza said:


> Well officer Wayne
> 
> You probably wouldn't believe this but
> My nextdoor nieighbours and great friends were two Aboriginal kids
> ...



Ahoy Captain Chaza,

Don't you think there's a certain irony in you now contributing to a topic that you think is a waste of time and telling us to "grow up".
Jokes aside your story about the Doyles is heartwarming stuff.  Thanks for telling this story.  However, I know for a fact that large numbers of Aboriginal children were taken away from their parents simply because they were Aboriginees irrespective of how they cared for them.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 June 2007)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169063&highlight=friendship#post169063 just another poem - no need to go there unless you're _left_ with nothing to do (and you've got the _right_ intentions )


----------



## chops_a_must (15 June 2007)

rederob said:


> You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community.  You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".
> 
> You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
> The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.



Seems like you might partly be in the wrong rederob. In WA, 83% of all unlawful woundings carried out by Juveniles, are carried out by Aboriginal youths. And the same with two thirds of assaults. That would indicate that aboriginal youths are more likely to carry out violent crimes, over and above assault than other groups.

I for one, am terrified on trains at night, when I am the only one in the car, apart from a multitude of aboriginal kids. Knowing their antics on trains and at stations, I think the fear is well founded.

But yes, in general, crime statisitcs reflect socio-economic factors and education levels.

And yes Bobby, the last time we went to Alice we were told by the manager lady at the hotel when we arrived, "Don't cross the river on your own, and certainly don't go across after dark. White people just don't go there."


----------



## Spaghetti (15 June 2007)

Yes why is it so bad?

Not us surely?

I do admit that in WA and NT there are far more ranging problems than in QLD. For example I live in an aboriginal area and do not fear for my life and I do not find any difference in human behaviour. I have never had any incident to me personally that gives me fear.

On the other hand I have been molested by men, all white, when I was young. I have been robbed by men, all white. I have been in a car crash caused by a drunk , white man. So I guess my personal experience is that aborigines do not hurt me, but white men do. Depends on personal experience I guess.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 June 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1952739.htm
Todays report .

I think Brough has his heart in the right place, I just wish that between him and the Labour state and territory govts, there had been a bit more to show for the money that has been spent.  

What was promised 17 April 2006 :-


> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1617255.htm
> TONY EASTLEY: *The Federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs Mal Brough says the disturbing conditions in the Alice Springs Aboriginal camps are unacceptable but the Government is in a good position to do something about it.*
> Last week on AM a fellow Federal Minister Joe Hockey described Alice Springs town camps as ghettos of despair.
> 
> ...




*And recent negotiations that broke down on the same / similar matter (sheesh, how much was riding on a successful outcome to those negotiations)*  
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1931466.htm


----------



## Bobby (15 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Yes why is it so bad.?
> 
> Not us surely?
> 
> I do admit that in WA and NT there are far more ranging problems than in QLD. For example I live in an aboriginal area and do not fear for my life and I do not find any difference in human behaviour. I have never had any incident to me personally that gives me fear.




You said it Spag's--- why is it so bad, try a holiday in Wilcania & then tell us your opinion if you survive   

Bobby.


----------



## Bobby (15 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Seems like you might partly be in the wrong rederob. In WA, 83% of all unlawful woundings carried out by Juveniles, are carried out by Aboriginal youths. And the same with two thirds of assaults. That would indicate that aboriginal youths are more likely to carry out violent crimes, over and above assault than other groups.
> 
> Rob will have the guts to say he got it wrong !
> 
> ...




Congratulations  on picking Australias nightmare town, if this criminality keeps going we could see more then cops involved . 

Bobby.


----------



## Spaghetti (15 June 2007)

Bobby

I think the white man has taught me all the skills I need to survive anything.

Except parliament. I won't go there lol

Bullyboy headquarters


----------



## Bobby (15 June 2007)

Spaghetti said:


> Bobby
> 
> I think the white man has taught me all the skills I need to survive anything.
> 
> ...




Hey spag's, there are good blackfellers who can teach stuff also 

Bobby.


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 June 2007)

PM last night ( http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1952877.htm )
was more detailed that the ABC website. ( http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1952739.htm )

I already posted that one below "Indigenous child abuse a national disgrace, says Brough" .  It implies that the kids are just finding pornography and experimenting - I would have thought that's deceptive euphemism for rampant intergenerational exploitation.  Even this PM program transcript suggests that "young girls" approach "older men".  yeah right.  let's assume  that happens especially when the older men are drunk 

"sexual abuse, unemployment , poor health and nutrition, overcrowded housing, substance abuse, low education rates, even pornography."
At least pornography is at the end of that list - at least if it's hard copy, they might learn to read! 

And the report lists 97 recommendations (presuably things which currently aren't being done - probably things that were ignored from the last 18 reports) .  no wonder we couldn't think of em all when Julia challenged us 

You'd have to say the Brough was howled down 15 months ago, but has been partially vindicated.  "There was disbelief and in some quarters denial" etc.  (I just wish he'd given Alice Springs more time to negotiate that testcase mentioned in previous post - as if Canberra can make up their mind in 6 weeks or whatever). 



> MARK COLVIN: Back home, and it started 13 months ago, when Northern Territory Crown Prosecutor Nanette Rogers unfolded a catalogue of horrors about Aboriginal child abuse on ABC TV's Lateline.
> 
> *There was disbelief and in some quarters denial, but now the inquiry set up to investigate those and other claims has painted what, if anything, is an even grimmer picture.*
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 June 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> .. if this criminality keeps going we could see more then cops involved . :eek



want to explain what you're saying there Bobby?


----------



## Bobby (18 June 2007)

Remember when you put me on your *IGNORE * list !

Please keep me on it 

Thanks Bobby.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 June 2007)

Bobby said:


> Remember when you put me on your *IGNORE * list !
> Please keep me on it
> Thanks Bobby.



just that when I took you off "ignore" accidentally ( i.e. deleted temporary files and cookies one day, and hence found that I logged onto ASF incognito), I find 
 lol, 

you're busy (and consistenly) making references to me, lol  - suggesting people put me on their ignore list lol.

whatever, - you sound like a real nice bloke, real upstanding citizen. 

anyway back to the topic, bit of advice ...
just keep any references to aggression against Ab communities mild (and continue to make them in a snide way), or you might attract some attention from the authorities yourself.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 June 2007)

West Aussies / sandgropers
excellent 7.30 Report tonight - interview with Noel Pearson

brave, brilliant, innovative despite all pessimism and near hopeless odds 

freely admits he's a near "Lone Ranger" / voice on abolition of passive welfare
but speaks his mind anyway. - and I hope he gets massive support 
(post #471 is relevant to an extent, but totally optional - just hear him if you can )


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 June 2007)

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/19/1955881.htm
Pearson takes anti-handout campaign to Govt
(The 7.30 report interview was better than this - but still this is the ghist)


> Posted Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:12pm AEST
> Mr Pearson says passive welfare has all but destroyed his community. (7.30 Report)  Map: Cairns 4870
> Indigenous leader Noel Pearson has urged the Federal Government to consider a radical overhaul of Indigenous welfare.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sean K (21 June 2007)

Oh dear.



			
				The Age said:
			
		

> *PM bans alcohol in Top End communities*
> June 21, 2007 - 1:32PM
> 
> Prime Minister John Howard has announced a six-month ban on alcohol in indigenous communities across the Northern Territory.
> ...


----------



## Kauri (21 June 2007)

Reminds me of when I was out in the West Aussie central desert and one of the locals asked for a lift into Alice... when I reminded him he had a warrant outstanding in the Territory he said it didn't matter because if they took him in he would get good food and get to see all his mates.. 





> Western Australian Corrective Services Minister Margaret Quirk says she has been told by some Aboriginal elders that the relatively good living conditions in prison actually encourage re-offending.
> The Minister made the comment as she was announcing a report was being finalised from the community consultation process on corrective services in the state's goldfields.
> She says it is likely the Eastern Goldfields Regional Prison, which has been labelled as one of the worst in the state, will be upgraded and work camps incorporated as a result of the consultation.
> But Ms Quirk says the elders' comments about the effect of prison conditions took her by surprise.
> "That was something I wasn't expecting to be said to me, so there are a number of levels we have got to address the issues but that, I think, indicates why community consultation is so valuable," she said.


----------



## greggy (23 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/19/1955881.htm
> Pearson takes anti-handout campaign to Govt
> (The 7.30 report interview was better than this - but still this is the ghist)




Hi 2020 Hindsight,

I reckon Noel Pearson should go into politics and become the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs.  He's very experienced and good hearted.
In reference to the PM's plans, I'm a little bit cynical that he's waited 11 years (and in an election year) before coming up with this strategy.
Placing my cynicism to one side,  I hope for the sake of the country that his plan does produce some positive results.  Its also good to see Mr Rudd backing him.  A unified national approach IMO has the best chance of success in solving this crisis. 
P.S. I'm definitely not going to put you on my ignore list as you do a pretty damn fine job.


----------



## Julia (26 June 2007)

Having been away for a week, during which time the Prime Minister announced his "emergency plan" for dealing with the child sexual abuse in aboriginal communities, I rather expected to come back to some considerable discussion of the plan on this thread.

But no, nothing.  Why?

Is everyone so impressed with this intended plan that there is simply nothing to say?

Or is everyone convinced this is nothing more than political grandstanding in an election year?

Or has the latest report finally galvanised our leaders into some definitive action at last?

Or do most people, like me, simply feel ambivalent and unsure?  Immensely glad that at least something is being done, but aware of the racist implications (there are sure as hell plenty of neglectful parents and abused children amongst white people too), and somewhat puzzled as to how the actual logistics of such a plan will be implemented in these remote communities, e.g. where are all the necessary medical and supplementary personnel suddenly going to appear from?

I've noticed that amongst those who have voiced their opposition to "the plan" and insisted it won't work, have failed to come up with any more appropriate or useful solutions.

Interested in members' thoughts on how effective this is likely to be.


----------



## chops_a_must (26 June 2007)

Julia said:


> Or do most people, like me, simply feel ambivalent and unsure?  Immensely glad that at least something is being done, but aware of the racist implications (there are sure as hell plenty of neglectful parents and abused children amongst white people too), and somewhat puzzled as to how the actual logistics of such a plan will be implemented in these remote communities, e.g. where are all the necessary medical and supplementary personnel suddenly going to appear from?




Sounds harsh... and really not like me about something... but I actually am having trouble caring.

There was a protest last friday or something... and my first thought was, "Why aren't these people working?"

It just seems to me that a lot of the aboriginal groups opposing this move aren't able to get any traction. I think people are just sick of a lot of talk and no action when it comes to matters of self governance and self determination etc.

The problems as I see it, in the Howard move, on a broad scale, are that the assumptions being made about aboriginal communities are really only applicable to the NT and northern Queensland, yet the libs are acting out as if the problems exist in all aboriginal communities. And also that the libs have cut many aboriginal programmes here in WA, which were having success. 

Aside from that, dug up an online article about a successful programme in WA in regards to petrol sniffing:
http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/94533.htm

Just goes to show the effort, time and resources required to have even a small impact on the community as a whole. 

And we simply can't expend that energy everywhere. Something has got to give, and it has to come from the aboriginal community themselves. Because the hands off approach, the one the aboriginal community have wanted, has not worked, and has led to the problems we now have.

A new, different, and less corrupt version of ATSIC wouldn't go astray either.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 June 2007)

Hi Julia 
I posted back there (#445 I think)


> I used to know a girl, she was a nurse, used to go to WA Ab communities to check for diseases (incl rampant VD ) - and ...
> they'd run away into the bush rather than be tested



But I didn't mean that they should bring out the bludy Army lol. 
As if they won't run off into the bush! bludy obvious.
If this is all about a massive police presence, including the army - with no attempt to get the Abs on board  - then of course the Abs will be terrified - and of course it won't work in the long run ( unless they somehow change and get them into the planning, train the Abs as nurses / doctors etc).    

And if they do achieve anything by a massive grandstanding exercise ... it will be short term ...

it will surely be UNSUSTAINABLE in the long term.  !!!!

And you will not have alienated the Abs rather than 'incentivised' them. 

Brough yells at them that "we want to talk this over!!!" - who in their right mind would trust him if they were an Ab.    

"we won't steal your children!!" - easily countered with "well you did last time" 

Yet he won't say exactly what they will do - the goals and methods of this exercise still have to be spelled out.  They can't ever decide whether they're going to check kids or not. - just playing to the election year galary imo.

Why don't they start with an apology, work with them (the Abs) instead of dictating to them.  Plenty of people already achieving heaps amongst those communities.  Give them gainful employment, a chance for some self respect etc.  sheesh.

Several references to this on tonight's PM, as you say - most pretty critical of the proposal. 


> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1961656.htm
> ANNE BARKER: The first real details are only now emerging of how the Commonwealth plans to change the face of policing in remote Territory communities.
> .....
> 
> ...



  etc - 


> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1961651.htm
> I've raised Aboriginal issues at successive COAG (Council of Australian Governments) meetings. The Prime Minister's been in for 11 and a half years and as you would say, it should take less than 11 and a half years to discover that there's been injustices.
> 
> And the whole point is, the focus for years was land rights and land rights without human rights basically is meaningless.
> ...


----------



## chops_a_must (26 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> If this is all about a massive police presence, including the army - with no attempt to get the Abs on board  - then of course the Abs will be terrified - and of course it won't work in the long run (* unless they somehow change and get them into the planning, train the Abs as nurses / doctors etc*).



But unfortunately we encounter another cultural problem here. In that education and working is not seen as a positive in itself, as those that do go on to make something of themselves are outcast, ridiculed and ignored as they are seen as the product of the white man.

Also, if they do "make it" they are then expected to provide for the family, who have become and are failures. Thereby breaking the back of the mule in many circumstances. This is seen in a long list of aboriginal sport stars who have been brought down by their families.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 June 2007)

I notice this on the thread "Middle East set for disaster etc"



> The third and greatest error repeated by middle east experts of all persuasions, by Arabophiles and Arabophobes alike, .. is also the simplest to define. It is the very odd belief that these ancient nations are highly malleable. Hardliners keep suggesting that with a bit of well-aimed violence ("the Arabs only understand force") compliance will be obtained. But what happens every time is an increase in hostility; defeat is followed not by collaboration, but by sullen non-cooperation and active resistance too. It is not hard to defeat Arab countries, but it is mostly useless. Violence can work to destroy dangerous weapons but not to induce desired changes in behaviour



You could say the same about Abs .. 
and Abophiles and Abophobes alike


----------



## Spaghetti (27 June 2007)

I am really disturbed at how this as been managed but haven't got the self control to talk about it online.

I just say this.

We have a poor record with abuse against children in our system in general. From religous institutions, web pr0n, abusive parents, sexual, gambling addicts and spousal abuse. We have a high level of schoolyard bullying and latch key kids. We have probably a higher number, if not percentage, of children suffering some form of abuse than in aboriginal communities. We are in the bad books with the international community and the UN in regard to the rights of children.

Would we, as a society, accept bans on pr0n, alcohol and perhaps even dress reforms to subdue the sexual expoitation of all children and women in our society? Or do we just judge others?


----------



## disarray (27 June 2007)

biggest problem with that hindsight is looking at "arabs", and "aborigines" as a single, unified group. they aren't. their affiliations are largely tribal.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> We have probably a higher number, if not percentage, of children suffering some form of abuse than in aboriginal communities.




give it a rest. from http://www.asca.org.au/childabuse/ca_figures.html



> Indigenous rates average 7 times that of the rest of the population and are far more likely to be the subject of neglect reports.






> Would we, as a society, accept bans on pr0n, alcohol and perhaps even dress reforms to subdue the sexual expoitation of all children and women in our society?




no. why should we? i don't see widespread sexual exploitation of children and women in society (although the advertising industry is getting out of hand with sexualising children and needs a thorough slapping down)


----------



## chops_a_must (27 June 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I notice this on the thread "Middle East set for disaster etc"
> 
> 
> You could say the same about Abs ..
> and Abophiles and Abophobes alike



But that is only valid if the premise that you are coming from is, i.e. that we deal with aboriginals violently, normally. Which is statistically not correct.

In fact, if you live in WA at least, and you see the little fellas nightly giving whities life long disabilities, then really, the opposite applies. Like I have said elsewhere in this thread, most convictions for violent crimes in WA are of abs. Make of that what you will...


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 June 2007)

Brough (ex military) has to decide what sort of mission to call this
Is it a "Win the Hearts and Minds"
or a "Search and Destroy".

at the moment it sounds like a "Search and Win Hearts" , and it sounds like it's off to a shakey start. 
Maybe they figure that the natural psychological process, when you're being held after a chase across the Sandy Desert, you'll probably agree to most anything. 

I remember an Ab women in central Qld, used to complain whenever the cops took her into the watch house (usually under the grip of a truckload of grapes) "you're only taking me there to f*** me !!" usually at 120 dB. Who knows what the truth was - long time ago .

I have to concede that where Ab leaders are corrupt etc, then fairly drastic steps are justified, - but still you have to work with the good ones. imo.  At the moment they're even getting the mothers off side.


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 June 2007)

Maybe they fear that Aids is on the increase, but it's taboo to say so


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2007)

Something drastic needed to be done. We have gone along the path of gently gently for way to long. The abuse cycle needs to be broken and it needs a strong approach. The problem is then what? Will aboriginals in these communities suddenly have jobs and turn their back on crime?

 Where do they go next if the problems in the community are sorted out? Ruts are ever so easy to fall back in, and cost a damn sight less then to get you out of.The Aboriginal leaders need to start taking a stronger approach instead of leaving their people lost.ATM they dont seem to want to help themselves.


----------



## Kauri (27 June 2007)

This whole thing is an election stunt in a similar way that the children overboard/Tampa fiasco's were also election stunts. The smart politicians have found another emotive issue that is potentially very politically damaging to criticise. Something definitely needs to be done to address the problems that exist in remote communities, as something needs to be done to address the problems that also exist in urban Australia, for all races.
  There is talk of police and nurses and social support staff and any number of other specialist people needed in the communities. Has anyone stopped to ask how many of these communities already have a staffed police station???, that all of them have an RN staffed health clinic, some with doctors but all on a regular RFDS visiting round, that many of them have social worker support staff resident??? 
   There is talk of banning alcohol and pornography in the communities.. has anyone thought that it already is, that the alcohol and pr0n is purchased in urbanised centres i.e. the Alice.. Katherine..Darwin etc, invariably from non-aboriginal run enterprises, and taken back to the communities or consumed where bought..i.e the river in Alice???
   When W.A's Alan Carpenter critisized John Howard over this new initiative (that has taken 11 years in office and a looming election to suddenly make it a major problem) he was advised that he should do the same in W.A communities. He obviously had done his homework and wasn't just politically shooting from the hip... all the Wongai people of the Ngaanyatjarra lands that stretch east from Kal to the W.A/S.A border, north to the Alice, and east to Telfer have through their own Ng council made it illegal to have alcohol anywhere on their lands and also control all of the petrol outlets where sniffable petrol has not been available, both for over 15 years... in fact when the Laverton shire zoned a piece of land just outside of the Ng shire suitable for a roadhouse that could also sell alcohol the Ng shire bought it and established a roadhouse that doesn't sell sniffable fuel or alcohol!!! Without Fed or State help. The Ng lands still have sniffing/grog/ violence/abuse/health/social problems. This isn't the answer, it may be a start, but more than a politically motivated heavy handed reaction that will fade away quietly after the election is needed.
    A political stunt that once again Australia seems to be falling for...


----------



## Spaghetti (27 June 2007)

Kauri

Agree 100%. The problem has been known for years, one has to question the timing and the bullyboy tactics used. He is brilliant at using the race card for political gain. Muslims, children in detention, children overboard, and Australian value tests for immigrants. Strange how he imposes unfair workplace laws that undermines our egalitarian cultural traditions and now imposes laws similiar to middle eastern nations on part of our community. Perhaps he should take the Australian values test himself.

Voilent men for eg need to be dealt with by the law. Alcohol is a problem that many communities have addressed. In Cairns also restrictions on the sale of cask wine are applied to everyone. Medical and social services should be provided where necessary. So why haven't they? We are punishing entire communities because we have failed in providing essential services?

It well could be that dictatorial style of leadership is required for aboriginal people but I cannot still agree with it. See Iraq for example, it worked better than democracy, still doesn't make it right. Not suggesting genocide is going to happen but cultural genocide will occur if people move into towns away from police state environments.

Plus we are ignoring the problems of domestic violence and alcohol abuse within our own community. Domestic violence for eg is the number one cause of death and disability in women aged 14-44 in the state of Victoria. 57% of women in Australia have been calculated as suffering some form of violence in their lifetimes. Would we accept such extreme measures ourselves? No we prefer not to even acknowledge the problem, repeating the reaction we have had as a nation toward child neglect in Aboriginal communities.


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## happytrader (27 June 2007)

Hi all

It would be really good to see more aboriginal children regularly attending school and set their sights on tertiary education. If the means to this is boarding school, then I'm all for it.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Wysiwyg (27 June 2007)

Why don`t aboriginals in the N.T. get together and form an exploration/production company for hydrocarbons or minerals?

They have the land so why not do something with it.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (27 June 2007)

Chops,
You made good points.


----------



## Broadside (27 June 2007)

Kauri said:


> This whole thing is an election stunt in a similar way that the children overboard/Tampa fiasco's were also election stunts. The smart politicians have found another emotive issue that is potentially very politically damaging to criticise. Something definitely needs to be done to address the problems that exist in remote communities, as something needs to be done to address the problems that also exist in urban Australia, for all races.







Spaghetti said:


> Kauri
> 
> Agree 100%. The problem has been known for years, one has to question the timing and the bullyboy tactics used. He is brilliant at using the race card for political gain. Muslims, children in detention, children overboard, and Australian value tests for immigrants. Strange how he imposes unfair workplace laws that undermines our egalitarian cultural traditions and now imposes laws similiar to middle eastern nations on part of our community. Perhaps he should take the Australian values test himself.




I am not Howard's number 1 fan, in fact I'll vote Liberal in spite of him, not because of him.  And yes, he's cynically used wedge politics in the past to divide and conquer his opponents...in the republic debate, the Tampa, and so on.  

With regards to Aboriginals, is he doing this for political gain?  Frankly, I don't care....it had to be done to break the cycle of violence and abuse, now regardless of the motivation I think the ends justify it.  Governments have tried all manner of programs and thrown a lot of money at this problem, and quite simply, it hasn't worked.  If this protects kids from abuse I'm all for it...full stop.  Noel Pearson, I think you talk a lot of sense.

PS Bob Brown called it racist when the emergency policy was announced, next day he smelled the political wind and said it didn't go far enough.  All politicians are cynical, even the ideological ones, but sometimes a good policy comes about in spite of them.


----------



## visual (27 June 2007)

I went back to the start of this thread and re-read some of my posts,I could almost have been chanelling Noel Pearson last night on Lateline,
again some of you are claiming that the PM is doing this for political gain,but this thread was started more than a year ago and what Nanette Rogers the chief prosecutor for the NT was saying then is presumably what the report found now,a report that the chief Minister held on for eight weeks before Mal Brough pushed for action,I believe that this action is being moved by Mal Brough with the help of John Howard of course,from the start he`s always looked like he really wants to do something about these issues so in my opinion not racist or politically motivated,sure if it works it`s not going to hurt the government but if it helps the Aboriginal women and children even better.


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 June 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/27/1963921.htm
Community groups say things are improving 


> A coalition of Indigenous and community groups has come up with an alternative to the Federal Government's intervention in Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory.
> 
> About 50 groups have met at Parliament House in Canberra to discuss the Government's strategy.
> 
> ...




Abbot says things are improving


> Abbott looks to SA.
> 
> Meanwhile, the federal Health Minister says progress in South Australian Aboriginal communities should help guide the Government's plan to improve Indigenous communities in the NT.
> 
> ...



Police bring experience from Africa back home


> Today, a group of 11 Federal Police (AFP) officers landed in Darwin ready for deployment as part of the Commonwealth's takeover of the NT's remote Indigenous communities.
> 
> The officers had been hand-picked for their experience in the world's trouble spots.  The AFP officers flew in on two charter flights from Canberra.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (27 June 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Sounds harsh... and really not like me about something... but I actually am having trouble caring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chops,
I reluctantly have to agree with you absolutely on each point.
I almost didn't bump the thread because I was thinking "oh, do we really want to go over all this stuff again?" and wondered if anyone else was feeling similarly.
As you say, the hands off approach seems to have failed, not everywhere, but in many instances, so some sort of action seems to be worth trying.
I wonder how much we will learn about the actual outcomes.
The other really relevant point, I think, is that aboriginal communities have to stop their culture of concealement where the perpetrators of abuse are not reported but rather sheltered.  What sort of message is that giving to the children?


----------



## Julia (27 June 2007)

visual said:


> I went back to the start of this thread and re-read some of my posts,I could almost have been chanelling Noel Pearson last night on Lateline,
> again some of you are claiming that the PM is doing this for political gain,but this thread was started more than a year ago and what Nanette Rogers the chief prosecutor for the NT was saying then is presumably what the report found now,a report that the chief Minister held on for eight weeks before Mal Brough pushed for action,I believe that this action is being moved by Mal Brough with the help of John Howard of course,from the start he`s always looked like he really wants to do something about these issues so in my opinion not racist or politically motivated,sure if it works it`s not going to hurt the government but if it helps the Aboriginal women and children even better.



Hello Visual,

Agreed about Mal Brough.  He does seem genuinely motivated to achieve real change.  I certainly don't think any of this initiative came from John Howard.


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 June 2007)

this from ABC "just in" 
Beatty is starting to make a lot of sense on Ab matters (imo  ) 


> Beattie calls on breweries to help Indigenous communities
> 
> Queensland Premier Peter Beattie is calling on breweries around the country to help combat the problems of alcohol abuse in Indigenous communities.
> 
> ...


----------



## moneymajix (28 June 2007)

Re Spagetti's earlier comments

I was listening to Tony Delroy on the ABC recently.

He was saying that 60% of people in jail in the US were there as a result of behaviour brought about by drugs and/or alcohol.

The assumption is that the stats woud be similar in Australia.

I believe that people do things under the influence of drugs and alcohol that they might not otherwise do. Perpetrate violence etc.

If drug and alcohol abuse is reduced this would go a long way to reducing problems in society, I would imagine.

I do ask myself then, why do some take drink and drugs to excess?

Maybe, some were abused by alcoholic parents and are repeating the pattern?  

It can be a vicious cycle. 

Like the sexually abused child becoming an abuser.

I think reduced drink and drugs would help our society. 

How do you reduce drug and alcohol abuse?

Is it about bringing about changes in individuals with Counselling etc.

Is it about not allowing advertising and glamourising of drink and drugs in movies etc

Is it about strengthening families?


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## moneymajix (28 June 2007)

20/20

Thanks for your post.

Do governments (State and/or Federal) make money from alcohol and cigaretters re taxes?


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## disarray (28 June 2007)

> I think reduced drink and drugs would help our society.
> 
> How do you reduce drug and alcohol abuse?
> 
> ...





well it couldn't possibly be about self-discipline and personal responsibility could it??


----------



## moneymajix (28 June 2007)

Disarray

I guess at the end of the day it all is about taking responsibility for oneself.

And I do think that some people have certain challenges.

I have been thinking about alcoholism etc lately. The reason being recent converstations I have had with a neighbour (not Aboriginal) who experienced daily violence as a child due to alcoholic parents.

He became an alcoholic. Although, he is now a teetotaller. He has suffered depression as a result of his childhood experiences. It is only recently, in his 40s, that he has had Counselling.

If you have not had these type of experiences, it is an eye opener. It has made me consider how others live.

I think children who have experienced alcoholism, abuse etc often carry the effects into adulthood. In obvious ways, such as becoming alcoholics themselves. Others will strive hard and become "successful" but manifest the results of their experiences in other ways such as becoming workaholics etc.


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (28 June 2007)

The poor sods are still in the same mess they were in last time i was in this thread.

I reckon if i come back in fifty years and check this thread they will still be up to their necks in $hit, mostly self inflicted and still blaming everyone else except themselves. About time they started sorting themselves out!!

To have to go in and clean up ENTIRE communities is disgraceful and an embarrassing.

I'm just glad someone is finally doing something about the pedophiles and violence. It makes my skin crawl.............


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## Julia (28 June 2007)

moneymajix said:


> I believe that people do things under the influence of drugs and alcohol that they might not otherwise do. Perpetrate violence etc.
> 
> If drug and alcohol abuse is reduced this would go a long way to reducing problems in society, I would imagine.
> 
> ...



Yes, you're right.  Children often perpetuate the behaviour they have seen modelled in their growing up years.
And yes, the idealistic notion of "strengthening families" (however you might think you could do that) is great.
But Disarray is also right in that personal responsibility has to be the major factor.  We can extend every possible understanding as to why any given situation has occurred, but sympathy has limited effectiveness.  The dysfunctional communities need to accept the help that is presently being offered (which it appears they are indeed doing)and take responsibility for making fundamental changes.  If there is a different mindset where they will no longer shelter abusers for fear of the shame involved, that would be a good start.

From the news I have seen tonight, the police and other authorities appear to have been genuinely welcomed into the two communities which they have visited so far which is really encouraging.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2007)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> The poor sods are still in the same mess they were in last time i was in this thread.
> 
> I reckon if i come back in fifty years and check this thread they will still be up to their necks in $hit, mostly self inflicted and still blaming everyone else except themselves. About time they started sorting themselves out!!
> 
> ...



You're presumably not considering a career in social work, then, Jessica?


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 June 2007)

moneymajix said:


> Do governments (State and/or Federal) make money from alcohol and cigaretters re taxes?



Lol - fair point, State would for sure.   

But there may have to be limits on the number of casks of wine for instance . (suspect there already is in some localities).  And maybe percentage alcohol reduced etc.   

This one is totally impractical, but wouldn't it be justice if those who benefitted from selling them stuff for substance abuse were involved in the social repair - whether part time ambulancemen , or whatever. 

I'm reminded of what I heard an ambulanceman once say, (assuming I heard him right) - that a drunk is so much more difficult - often aggressive, often extremely sick,  long term and nothing you can do till that C2H5OH gets oxidised (?) whatever - 

than a drug overdose on heroin for instance, where you simply have to give them a quick injection and it's over and done with.    (Not sure about all drugs of course).  Not sure about petrol / glue  sniffing either  

But excess of alcohol is very tricky for everyone. , moderation not a problem.  Even with Kava I guess - first drink makes your tongue a bit numb, fifth you start to float, but twentyfifth starts to scramble the brain etc.


----------



## moneymajix (29 June 2007)

Interesting story on PM last night re
Canadian Indigenous-run prison impresses NT

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1965086.htm


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 June 2007)

moneymajix said:


> Interesting story on PM last night re
> Canadian Indigenous-run prison impresses NT



yep interesting, moneymajix


> The elders who run this program say that about 80 per cent of the men who complete it never re-offend.
> 
> Its impressed the head of Corrections in the Northern Territory, Jens Tolstrup who says that one in two of his prisoners end up back in jail within five years of their release.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 June 2007)

more cartoons :-


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 June 2007)

and...


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## 2020hindsight (1 July 2007)

Lol, just looking at SBS - 1900 years ago, the city of Timgad in North Africa had sewerage, thanks to the Roman engineers ..

most Aust Ab communities in 2007 still dont 



> Lost Worlds : The Roman Empire - Part 2: Timgad: Roman Africa
> Time: Sunday, July 1, 7:30 PM
> Channel: SBS
> Duration: 60 minutes
> ...


----------



## macca (2 July 2007)

Hi 2020,

The sewer was probably built by the residents under the supervision of the Roman Whipcrackers 

I don't see any reason why the aboriginals could not have made improvements to their towns, maybe they didn't feel like it.


----------



## Julia (2 July 2007)

macca said:


> Hi 2020,
> 
> The sewer was probably built by the residents under the supervision of the Roman Whipcrackers
> 
> I don't see any reason why the aboriginals could not have made improvements to their towns, maybe they didn't feel like it.




Good point, Macca.

I'd also question that there should exist full facilities in aboriginal communities in remote places which are equivalent to highly populated areas.

If I chose to live in some remote area I wouldn't be expecting full services.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 July 2007)

ok ok - maybe not sewer - maybe clean water though?
All I know is that I wouldn't swap with em. 

btw, I think I heard that palm island incident may go to civil court - possibly sueing the police union as well (bit strange) - possibly going on for years to come.  So I'll post this for reference. 
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1958375.htm

Here's todays update :-
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1967160.htm


> Mulrunji's family to launch civil action
> ANDREW BOE: It's not a question of moving on; it's a question of pursuing every avenue in which there can be some determination about responsibility. I mean, the family know that the prospects of substantial financial returns are very, very limited.
> 
> *It's more the principle *and it's more the issue that's there's been a determination of responsibility for this death. I mean, this death should not go down in vain. And if there are liabilities that attach with consequences for Government, Police Service as well as the Senior Sergeant, well they will be pursued.
> ...



as they say ... "Principles make lawyers rich"


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 July 2007)

btw, here's Kakadu - and there's a rainbow serpent if ever I saw one 
Also Uluru and the Olgas (about 25-30km west I think)
Also the Olgas by the time Brett Whiteley has interpreted them 


> http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/14/1950737.htm  The Olgas, by the late Brett Whiteley, which sold at auction for almost AUD3.48 million in Sydney, June 13, 2007... "He sexualised the landscape in a way no other artist has ever done before, in Australian terms anyway."



look more like magic mushrooms to me 
same goes for the bloke who paid $3.5 million for it , sheesh.


----------



## visual (3 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Good point, Macca.
> 
> I'd also question that there should exist full facilities in aboriginal communities in remote places which are equivalent to highly populated areas.
> 
> If I chose to live in some remote area I wouldn't be expecting full services.





Julia,
don`t forget that,these aboriginals  are choosing to live in such areas because they are meant to be living the aboriginal life.Not sure their original way of life requires such things.After all aren`t they exempt from the laws that prevent white people killing protected animals because for them it`s part of their staple diet.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 July 2007)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104073&highlight=olgas#post104073
nice spot to visit - provided you pick a cold day  
Seems to be some confusion as to why Govt intervention into child sex abuse is conditional upon taking a five year lease , but no doubt a logical explanation will emerge with time.


----------



## happytrader (3 July 2007)

I live in a nice area, and even though there are the odd ATSIC (now defunct) homes spread throughout, the quality is such that an outsider would not be aware of this fact. It is easy to observe that by the way that the properties are maintained and the way that these residents conduct themselves that they hold to a very high standard. 'Living up to their homes' and street so to speak. 

I am a great believer that in changing ones external environment it stimulates mental movement.

Cheers
Happytrader


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 July 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/06/1971866.htm?section=justin


> A Melbourne University Professor says child sex abuse in the Northern Territory is less rampant in the Territory than it is in mainstream Australian suburbs.
> 
> Professor Peter Botsman says figures from the Commonwealth's '2004/2005 Child Protection Report' show the level of abuse in the Territory's remote Indigenous communities is five times less than in Victoria.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 July 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/06/1971812.htm?section=justin


> PM denies health check-welfare restriction link
> Posted 4 hours 3 minutes ago
> 
> The Prime Minister, John Howard, says there is no intention to restrict the welfare payments of Indigenous parents in the Northern Territory who refuse to have their children medically examined.
> ...



I guess with enough clarifications and elimination of ambiguity and justifiable  misunderstanding , it will eventually become clear what is going on.  Process of elimination as they say. 

Incidentally, as if NSW can spare police for NT !!  - there have been cases where people have been beaten up bigtime ( I think killed, not sure) at the steps of the police station because the stations were not manned. 

And incidentally , speaking of booze, I heard recently that there are also cases - sure to be rare - where white hoteliers who double as "contract labour contractors" (to arrange for Abs to work in agriculture)  - only employ Abs who are prepared to take credits at the pub (for booze purchase) for at least part of their payment. Maybe others are aware of this practice as well (?)


----------



## sandlion (6 July 2007)

Sucked in...

I have only been in two countries where alcohol was forbidden and permits were required to travel through the country...

Australia (NT specifically)
and
Saudi Arabia

What a joke, pretty much old mate Maximus Russellus Crowe summed it up...

"People should know when they're beaten"

...assimilate or get stuffed, ever consider that no-one particularly wants to subsidise indigenous anything? Why should new mate chinese immigrant pay tax out of his 14 hour day to some lazy aboriginal community determined to drink piss all day, get diabetes and blame it all on someone else..

Aboriginals....the definition of unAustralian


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 July 2007)

sandlion said:


> old mate Maximus Russellus Crowe summed it up..."People should know when they're beaten"Aboriginals....the definition of unAustralian



Maximus is a stage name mate 
as I recall Maximus was given a hard time in the movie, only to turn unbelievable odds around .

telling those Abs trying to crawl out from that plight that there's no hope (when Brough says it's a national disgrace for instance) sounds like something a Minimus would say to me.


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 July 2007)

Here's one critical of the NT's most senior public servant.  Best read the whole article. Sounds like Tyrrell is vulnerable to me. The best defence is offence as they say.   

Having said that - I'm sure he also makes some good points about the sudden unilateral actions (and confusion caused) by recent federal intervention. 

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=277193


> EXCLUSIVE: Memo to public servants exposes territory resistance to intervention. By Paul Toohey.
> A senior member of Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough's special taskforce into child sexual abuse in the Northern Territory has already emerged as a potentially undermining force, sending a memo to all Territory public servants complaining about the federal intervention.
> 
> *The chief executive of the Department of the Chief Minister, Paul Tyrrell, says in the memo that the federal intervention was made "unilaterally" and without regard to the "considerable progress" the Territory Government has apparently made over the years in addressing indigenous problems.*
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 July 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/
This is great summary of the confusion around last weekend.... (gee but Insiders is a great show !!  )

And for an interesting discussion of double standards -...

Go to "the panel discusses the week in politics" - unfortunately no transcript available - click on "Win Lo" to view the video of the guest reporters  (under Barrie Cassidy's excellent chairmanship) discussing the Ab question (plus other matters).

there's an interesting moral discussion at the 10 minute mark (approx) - just past the half way point



> CASSIDY : "I'll give you another example , right? - we'll go further on this double standards matter... Bulletin article by Paul Kelly
> Several weeks ago in Katherine a 16 year old boy is charged.  He and a 14 year old girl have a child - consent,  no complaints from the girl - but a govt worker complains - now he faces charges with up to 16 year jail sentence.
> 
> Now by way of contrast what happens to white miners guilty of the same or similar offences  - here's Rex Wilde QC...
> "We were told that their children, kids between ages of 12 - 15 were visiting miner's accommodation  -  miners caught "acting inappropriately" were sent back home by the companies"




The panel conclude...


> The miners should have been charged - The mining companies should have called in the police. There is no such thing as consent for sex by  junior / minor.
> 
> Rex Wild having highlighted that ..... John Howard to his credit is now going to meet with the mining companies and ask what's going on?



Sounds like not only Abs are going to get some publicity out of all this , and/or that Ab kid's charges will be quietly dropped etc 

PS for those interested, Insiders is on at 9.00am on Sunday mornings. (with panel discussion at about 9.30) - bludy brilliant !

PPS as I've said before , you wonder why they have such a disproportionate percentage in jail when things like that happen


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 July 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/10/1974164.htm?section=justin


> Aboriginal child health checks set for launch
> 
> The first of the Federal Government's health checks of Aboriginal children are scheduled to begin in a Central Australian community today.
> 
> ...



Not just about sex abuse - and maybe a tacit admission that medical facilities in the outback have been a bit lacking over the years.


----------



## Happy (14 September 2007)

ABC had both news posted today, about an hour ago.

I am bit confused, and further down the track we will have STOLEN PORNOGRAPHY GENERATION claims or something like that.



> ABORIGINAL pr0n BAN A JOKE: ADULT INDUSTRY
> 
> 
> An adult entertainment industry lobby group says rogue traders operating from Darwin post office boxes are making a mockery of the Federal Government's pornography ban in Northern Territory Aboriginal communities.
> ...








> BROUGH URGED TO BAN 'PORNO CHANNEL' SBS
> 
> Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough says Aboriginal woman want him to ban television station SBS because of its pornographic content.
> A ban on pornographic material has come into play today as part of the Commonwealth's intervention into child sex abuse in remote Indigenous communities.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 September 2007)

the Brough way or the Garret 
(not that Garret is his shadow - but he'd make a great minister for Ab affairs IMO)

where do you end when you go down the road of blanket censorship ?  

this latest intervention (claimed by some of these communities - men women kids alike - to be unjustified) 

1. Obviously knee-jerk reaction
2. obviuosly unsustainable in the long term
and thirdly, 
3. obviously election year in my books. 


and  Brough happily saying "we've identified 73 or 78 or whatever communities where things are out of control etc 

some of these communities better than some suburbs of Sydney - have hence they've offended model ab communities who were tackling the problems and winning. 

when will these people (pollies) learn that they can't peddle bs.


----------



## happytown (14 September 2007)

australia votes against the draft text adopted today by the un gen ass known as the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=23794&Cr=indigenous&Cr1=



> United Nations adopts Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples
> 
> 13 September 2007 – The General Assembly today adopted a landmark declaration outlining the rights of the world’s estimated 370 million indigenous people and outlawing discrimination against them – a move that followed more than two decades of debate.
> 
> ...




link to the doc:

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/LTD/N07/498/30/PDF/N0749830.pdf?OpenElement



> ...
> 
> Article 18
> 
> ...




cheers


----------



## Julia (14 September 2007)

The brief report I heard this morning on ABC's 'AM' programme drew attention to the fact that the suggested declaration included the right of indigenous peoples to allow their customary law to override the laws of the country in which they live.

This would, imo, be a good enough reason to reject it.


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 October 2007)

John Howard says sorry


----------



## Happy (25 October 2007)

> From ABC, 25 Oct. 07
> 
> STOLEN GENERATIONS SURVIVOR DIES AT 107
> 
> ...






It is not thoughtful to make such a comment on death note, but what struck me is that there is such a debate on Aboriginal mortality and I wander what would be her longevity like should she have not been stolen?


----------



## BIG BWACULL (25 October 2007)

Happy said:


> It is not thoughtful to make such a comment on death note, but what struck me is that there is such a debate on Aboriginal mortality and I wander what would be her longevity like should she have not been stolen?



Probably considerably less but that should not be a factor when considering you grow up never knowing your family and probly spend half your life looking for them or trying to answer questions that would not have been raised if you were not stolen


----------



## 2020hindsight (25 October 2007)

Happy said:


> It is not thoughtful to make such a comment on death note, but what struck me is that there is such a debate on Aboriginal mortality and I wander what would be her longevity like should she have not been stolen?



Happy 
I was at Port Hedland last week - lots of aborigines, and all happy (like you and I ) -  but I'd prefer not to speculate on her longevity had she not been stolen.  Not something Aus should be be proud of either way. (imo)


----------



## Sean K (10 December 2007)

You've got to be kidding? 



> *Girl, 10, 'probably agreed' to sex *
> By Tony Koch and Padraic Murphy
> December 10, 2007 12:10am
> 
> ...


----------



## So_Cynical (10 December 2007)

Thats just nuts...political correctness fundamentalism.


----------



## Whiskers (10 December 2007)

More outrageous is that:


> Judge Bradley said from her Cairns home yesterday that she considered the sentences "appropriate" in the case because they were the penalties asked for by the Crown prosecutor.




No wonder the decent aboriginal community is disgusted with the justice system and venting their hostilities at police in particular.


----------



## Julia (10 December 2007)

I expect the police are as exasperated with results like these too, so little point in the aborigines getting upset with the police.

Kerry Shine (Qld A.G.) will appeal against the sentence (non-sentence!)
The judiciary make a habit of this sort of thing.


----------



## Sean K (10 December 2007)

Julia said:


> I expect the police are as exasperated with results like these too, so little point in the aborigines getting upset with the police.
> 
> Kerry Shine (Qld A.G.) will appeal against the sentence (non-sentence!)
> The judiciary make a habit of this sort of thing.



I can't believe this 'Judge' came to this sentencing decision, on what facts we have. Her days are numbered, I hope. 

Perhaps there was presumed to be some 'traditional' justice to follow.


----------



## chops_a_must (10 December 2007)

kennas said:


> I can't believe this 'Judge' came to this sentencing decision, on what facts we have. Her days are numbered, I hope.
> 
> Perhaps there was presumed to be some 'traditional' justice to follow.




Christ... someone should rape that judge. 

You'd expect that sort of out of touch sentence from a stereotypical senile 70 year old male judge, but from a female?

Totally bizarre considering a 10 year old isn't legally able to give consent anyway.


----------



## Kauri (10 December 2007)

kennas said:


> I can't believe this 'Judge' came to this sentencing decision, on what facts we have. Her days are numbered, I hope.
> 
> Perhaps there was presumed to be some 'traditional' justice to follow.




Traditionally, tribal law and punishment does not apply to the un-initiated, and I would guess that that at least 6 of them are too young to have been through the initiation.... so any traditional retribution, if carried out, will be meted out to thier (tribal-skin) relatives..
Cheers
.......Kauri


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Totally bizarre considering a 10 year old isn't legally able to give consent anyway.



such an important point chops ..  

On another matter, but not totally unrelated.. 
I'm just watching ABC - a baby (5 mths) raped in Sth Africa 
the medical team who attended needed counselling 
the child has a colostomy bag because of ruptured insides.


----------



## Ageo (10 December 2007)

They should execute the 9 rapists and the judge. What the hell is this world coming too?? we would rather save tree's and cats then our own kids???

And apparently this judge has kids aswell!!!

Digusting is an understatement


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (10 December 2007)

Well. surprise, surprise, its been a few months since my last appearance in this thread and by the sounds of things the whole Aboriginal state of affairs seems to be even worse, I didn't think that was possible!!!

I don't think there is a solution for them and my prediction is that things will deteriorate further until over many hundred years they will essentially disappear. Interbreeding and substance abuse will be the end of them.

I don't think they have the genetic makeup to survive, possibly some form of natural selection is occuring?
Thats my theory anyway.

I wish them all the best but i just don't see them surviving myself.


----------



## Julia (10 December 2007)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> Well. surprise, surprise, its been a few months since my last appearance in this thread and by the sounds of things the whole Aboriginal state of affairs seems to be even worse, I didn't think that was possible!!!
> 
> I don't think there is a solution for them and my prediction is that things will deteriorate further until over many hundred years they will essentially disappear. Interbreeding and substance abuse will be the end of them.
> 
> ...



Well, let's hope their leaders and those in the white population who are in a position to make a difference to their outcomes don't take such a negative and pessimistic view.


----------



## Sean K (11 December 2007)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> I don't think they have the genetic makeup to survive, possibly some form of natural selection is occuring?
> Thats my theory anyway.



Hmmm, Did I read somewhere that they were the oldest surviving culture on the planet?

I think there's more at work than just Aboriginals....


----------



## Kauri (11 December 2007)

Not an apologist...
Not a bleeding heart...
not even a plurry hairy legged alternative...
BUT...
 has anyone been out there
 has anyone seen
 do any of the posters on this thread know anything more than what is effing being fed to them by the press...
 there are no excuses, and never will be, for the foul things that happens to any child anywhere, anytime...
 but does anyone here know what happened... before... and after??  
 wouldn't it be good to have all of the book before critiquing it?? or not..

 Knee jerked Kauri 
  :sheep:


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 December 2007)

Kauri said:


> but does anyone here know what happened... before... and after??
> wouldn't it be good to have all of the book before critiquing it?? or not.



yeah but Kauri.. a 10 year old ? 

and incidentally Jessica, I'm not blaming the abs - not confined to them sheesh (this could be on any thread - justice for kids, sensible sentences),  I'm blaming the judge and the prosecutor.

the young blokes are obviously pleading guilty to rapes with what they are claiming is some sort of mitiugating circumstance.

I'm not saying hang em , or shoot em etc (but it sure sounds like they got away too lightly to send a message for the next pack of kids who pick up a girl who could be coming home from school (year 4 or 5?) .


----------



## Sean K (11 December 2007)

This looks to be a general breakdown of the system. 

Whatever system there is. 



> *Child safety failed rape girl *
> Tony Koch | December 11, 2007
> 
> QUEENSLAND'S Child Safety Department knew that a 10-year-old girl had been gang-raped but did not report it to police, despite the girl also contracting a sexually transmitted disease from the encounter.
> ...



Puts a bit of a chill down my spine really. 

Some more drastic measures than the Army going into provide medical support to the communties too I think. 

Troubling, to say the least.


----------



## macca (11 December 2007)

I know that we are appalled by this but is the aboriginal community involved worried about ?

Did they report the assault to the Police ?

Did they ostracise the people involved ?

Is this permissible within their society ? 

Are we applying our standards to them ?

Do we have that right ?

This is what needs to be revealed, much like the fundamentalist terrorists, we read and hear of what we consider to be shocking events, yet the actual people involved, who are part of that community don't seem to join us in that outrage.

Are we pious pontificating know it all White Westerners ?

Maybe we expect them to measure up to our standards and criticise them when they have no desire to live as we do.

Personally it disgusts me


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 December 2007)

macca said:


> I know that we are appalled by this but is the aboriginal community involved worried about ?
> 
> Did they report the assault to the Police ?
> 
> ...



I think it disgusts them (the Ab communities) as well , m8.   

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2115735.htm


> Blame game starts in Aurukun rape case
> Posted 7 hours 57 minutes ago
> Updated 7 hours 47 minutes ago
> There is more pressure on the Queensland Government today over the case of the 10-year-old Aurukun girl whose rapists escaped jail sentences.
> ...






http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2116136.htm?section=australia


> Rape case comments 'don't reflect community opinion'
> Posted 47 minutes ago
> 
> Queensland Premier Anna Bligh says court transcripts of a gang-rape case give evidence that the standards the community expects from the judicial process have not been met......
> ...


----------



## chops_a_must (11 December 2007)

In a sentence:



> Foster care groups are outraged, saying cultural considerations were given priority over the girl's safety.




That sums up the problem with protecting aboriginal kids. Either way, it is a lose lose situation for white Australians. Over the last 10 years or so, the DCD's and associated departments, have been acting on the wishes of the indigenous community. Now that hasn't worked and the claims of racism go up etc. etc. when in actual fact these policies are partly theirs. So the policy goes back to what it was when they weren't happy and the problem goes on.

The Aboriginal population are facing the total destruction of their culture around the country. And there isn't anything you or I can do about it.


----------



## macca (12 December 2007)

<<<The Aboriginal population are facing the total destruction of their culture around the country. And there isn't anything you or I can do about it. >>>

I read a book written by an aboriginal activist who worked in an aboriginal settlement for a year.

On the settlement there was a museum, started by the white workers to preserve aboriginal artifacts etc.

The only people who were the slightest bit interested were the whites, the aboriginals were not interested in that old junk.

They don't have any desire to preserve history except in story telling.

Just their way, but it will cause their way of life to die out for sure.


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (12 December 2007)

Hey Kennas you are correct, there is much more at work than just the aboriginals themselves......................and their lays their biggest challenge!

But,

At the end of the day they need to adapt to these conditions or face extinction. 

The way i see it is that, regardless of all the things being inflicted on them and those being inflicted on them by their own they have to find ways of adapting to this.

My arguement is that i don't think they have the genetic make up to make these adaptions and therefore will be wiped out as a race.

And, this is the reason why is doesn't matter what you do because you can provide them with everything you think they need but that does not alter their genes.

I also think they suffer a terrible case of the 'YOU CAN"T MOVE FORWARD WHILE LOOKING BACKWARDS' syndrome, its a nasty one to contract and often uncureable.

And yes, they may well be regarded as one of the longest surviving races but there is a reason for that. They were on an isolated island for a long time and did not suffer the pressures faced by other races, this could ultimately be there downfall. But, life has caught up with them and its really sorted them out.

Just because you are thought to be one of the longest surviving races is not a guarantee that you will always be the longest surviving races. 

I'm not against them in any way but for me this is how i see it.

Survival is all about adapting and at the end of the day you either adapt or dissapear. They will not survive, the writing is on the wall.


----------



## JeSSica WaBBit (12 December 2007)

Kauri - i don't think you need to go visit these sites, rape of a 10 year old is a dispicable crime, i'd cut off their nuts and old fella. That goes for any rapist, white, black, purple or yellow.

I'd say its pretty obvious their society has collapsed and they are well down the road to ruin!

You can't return a rotten apple to pristine condition with a bit of spit and polish!!!


----------



## Sean K (14 March 2008)

> *'Remove children' plea at Aurukun*
> John Van Tiggelen
> March 14, 2008
> 
> ...



And then lets ask for compensation.

Maybe the circumstances are a tad different but it's a tad ironic too.


----------



## Spaghetti (14 March 2008)

Circumstances could not be anymore different. Nobody has ever denied removal of children for their safety and well being is wrong.

It is wrong to remove them based on race and to expose them to greater risk by doing so. That is what actually happened with the stolen generation. Abuse toward them far higher rate than those not removed. I do get angry we show no anger toward the white abusers of aboriginal children. Especially as it still occurs today with white men in remote areas buying sex with booze without respnsibility for any child born of the union.

Cape York communties are very remote and policing scarce. They do not have the same infrastructure that we enjoy. For eg the police go up every couple of weeks and pick up anyone that has to go to court. They drive them to Cairns for their hearings then these people are left out on the streets hundreds of miles from home. Of course then the locals complain about homeless Aboriginals camping near the city or begging for money. 

We need to be honest, if the majority population in Cape York was white there would be at least one sealed road and other first world infrastructure. the road out to Yarabah is sealed but poorly maintained and very dangerous. A stunning seaside location that if populated by whites would have a perfectly good access, probably lined with palm trees ala Port Douglas.

History tells us that European people devoid of policing and medicine and lacking employment turn to alcohol, un safe sex and have short life spans, Not too far back either, so as a race we function no better given the same circumstances.


----------



## Sean K (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> Circumstances could not be anymore different. Nobody has ever denied removal of children for their safety and well being is wrong.



That was the point in the first place wasn't it. We can look back and say it was, but that was the wisdom of the time, just like today. Maybe I don't understand, but I think we'll be judged in 50 years differently than we are today.


----------



## qmanthebarbarian (14 March 2008)

JeSSica WaBBit said:


> Hey Kennas you are correct, there is much more at work than just the aboriginals themselves......................and their lays their biggest challenge!
> 
> But,
> 
> ...






Wow!!

An extremely cursory and misguided attempt at a scientific explanation of the plight of a people that borders on Nazist evolutionary theory! 

I think you should take a read of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

then perhaps ask yourself whether you feel any obligation as a human being to offer more than this: 



JeSSica WaBBit said:


> I also think they suffer a terrible case of the 'YOU CAN"T MOVE FORWARD WHILE LOOKING BACKWARDS' syndrome, its a nasty one to contract and often uncureable.




If you don't - good luck to you. One day you'll come across someone who feels the same obligation under the law of evolution as you do and you won't be around for much longer either.


----------



## Spaghetti (14 March 2008)

kennas said:


> That was the point in the first place wasn't it. We can look back and say it was, but that was the wisdom of the time, just like today. Maybe I don't understand, but I think we'll be judged in 50 years differently than we are today.




Kenna's No, it was a blanket decision not based on a particular child's exposure to risk. It was deemed beneficial for mixed race children to grow up in white society. It was even aimed at providing cheap labor for eg. Majority of removed children were female to feed into the domestic maid labour market. Many of the mixed race boys were kept on the white father's properties (not in the main house) as employees more than offspring. Mixed race children were often fatherless so their mothers faced difficulties so society of the time felt it was for the better, but really humans have no right to take children away from a mother because they feel it will be better for the child. Imagine if we just took away children from all single mothers today. Same argument could be used. 

However it is even worse if we accept it was done for the benefit of the child as the level of risk these children were exposed to actually increased in the religous missions they were sent to. Studies have found higher levels of dysfunction in stolen children compared to those that remained with their mothers so they did not even achieve that end. I read earlier here how a stolen child lived to a ripe old age with the comment it would not happen if they were not stolen. Truth is though that majority have not enjoyed a better life. I am not sure where this mis-information is coming from.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> However it is even worse if we accept it was done for the benefit of the child as the level of risk these children were exposed to actually increased in the religous missions they were sent to.



Isn't that rather too much of a generalisation?  Certainly many children in institutions were abused, white as well as black, but not all by any means.



> Studies have found higher levels of dysfunction in stolen children compared to those that remained with their mothers so they did not even achieve that end.



I'd be interested in references to those studies.  That is in contrast to Noel Pearson's remarks that many of the stolen generation became very functional members of the broader society, with good work ethics and sense of community.   He asserts that it is far more the following generation which has the greater level of dysfunction and he attributes this largely to what he describes as the "morally vain" element of our present white society promoting in his people a perpetual sense of victimhood.  He says this prevents them understanding the need to take responsibility for their own outcomes, i.e. determine within their own communities that the grog has a profoundly negative effect on their relationships and the development of their children.


----------



## Happy (14 March 2008)

> From ABC, 14 Mar. 08
> 
> ANTHEM MILK PLAN UPSETS ABORIGINAL LEADER
> 
> ...








> "You know, Aboriginal people have been here since time began, and white people have only been here in the last 200 years.





Yes, if time began 30,000 years ago.

I wander who is more interested nowadays in division?


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 March 2008)

kennas said:


> And then lets ask for compensation.
> 
> Maybe the circumstances are a tad different but it's a tad ironic too.




http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/remove-children-plea-at-aurukun/2008/03/13/1205126111240.html

kennas, I'd say that was a mischievous and/or misleading headline to that article by Mr John Van Tiggelen.  Those women are not asking for their kids to be taken away!.  They are asking for a quick change of their circumstances for the better - and educaton for their kids. ("so that when they come back from the city, they can talk and read English as well as Wik Mungkan.")

It ain't gonna be that easy, but at least they are talking with some hope. 

and your comment about "then lets ask for compensation" 
where the hell did that come from?   lol.

PS Maybe it's not Van Tiggelen's article that's mischievous - just your interpretation of it


----------



## tigerboi (14 March 2008)

One aspect of the aboriginal industry that amuses me is the likes of Michael Mansell a blue eyed fella caiming to be a Tasmanian aboriginal,now being a keen observer of Australian history,my understanding is that we shot all the Tasmanian black fellas,with exception of Truganini being the last full blood from the apple isle,yep trendsetters shameful actions but it is the truth,As ive said before the only true aboriginal is a fella such as david gulpilill the actor,hes been initiated which is for all to see with his shirt off,all the rest are wannabe,1/2s,1/4s,1/8s castes that most fair dinkum black fellas laugh at when they claim to be a black fella,its got to the farcical stage when you have to be asked,do you identify as a black fella?You even get some of the ferals of the unwashed brigade that live in trees & chain themselves to bulldozers,that say "its not the colour of your skin its if you feel like an aboriginal!!!lol..true..TB


----------



## Spaghetti (14 March 2008)

Julia said:


> I'd be interested in references to those studies.  That is in contrast to Noel Pearson's remarks that many of the stolen generation became very functional members of the broader society, with good work ethics and sense of community.   He asserts that it is far more the following generation which has the greater level of dysfunction and he attributes this largely to what he describes as the "morally vain" element of our present white society promoting in his people a perpetual sense of victimhood.  He says this prevents them understanding the need to take responsibility for their own outcomes, i.e. determine within their own communities that the grog has a profoundly negative effect on their relationships and the development of their children.




The studies were completed by the ABS and referenced in the Bringing them Home report. 

Quote SOCIO-ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION OF AUSTRALIA’S STOLEN GENERATION

This article presents a detailed examination of survey data on the circumstances of two groups of indigenous people: one consisting of indigenous people who, in their childhood, had been separated from their parents and one consisting of those who had not been separated. In almost all cases the separated group was worse off. On average they had left school earlier, were less likely to have educational qualifications and were less likely to be employed. (Majchrzak-Hamilton and Hamilton )

I do agree there has been paternalistic type racism that has led to victimhood, ironic that we still do not learn from history and insist on doing what we feel is good for them when in fact it is damaging. Perhaps if we keep having to apologise the penny may drop one day and we simply start treating them fairly and instead of only ever talking about the political side we start discussing their art, their music and their successes and celebrate them as a people rather than this never ending disucussion about how we should fix all their problems. Little wonder many have poor self esteem.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> The studies were completed by the ABS and referenced in the Bringing them Home report.
> 
> Quote SOCIO-ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION OF AUSTRALIA’S STOLEN GENERATION
> 
> ...




Thanks for that, Spaghetti.  Do you know what sort of numbers were involved in the comparison?  I sometimes think it must be almost impossible to draw valid conclusions about the outcomes of this generation, given that no one seems to actually know how many children were removed.


----------



## Sean K (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> Perhaps if we keep having to apologise the penny may drop one day and we simply start treating them fairly and instead of only ever talking about the political side we start discussing their art, their music and their successes



Yep, let's do that. The oldest culture on the planet, yet to invent the wheel. Art? A few hand paintings on the rocks, and dots. Music? A couple of sticks beating..Success? Cathy running around in a condom. Poly Farmer had a good handball. They were the first Aussie cricket team to tour, as a novelty act. 

Having said that........

Perhaps they were at the height of what our 'civilisation' should be. Perhaps the wheel was the start of the end for us, ending in a 1mm thick plasma...

And, I would like to know who was behind the study that came to the conclusions set out above. My suspiscions and scepticism lead me to a half cast, or some hippy now smoking his own from the back yard plantation in Nimbin. 

I don't think I'm stiring the pot, just being anti politically correct at the moment.


----------



## Spaghetti (14 March 2008)

Kennas

I love their art. Totally stunning and far more internationally recognised than any non-indigenous artist that we have produced. Whole gallery in Paris devoted to it. We do not even have that in Sydney as far as I know.

Quinkan Reserves in Cape York considered one of the best 10 rock art sites in the world. I believe being considered for world heritage listing. The list goes on.

The didgeridoo. Well what can I say, never though too much of it until I heard a master play it. Then wow, brilliant and no other musical instrument blends into nature as it does when played well. It becomes part of nature itself.

There is so much out there Australians just not interested sadly.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> I love their art. Totally stunning and far more internationally recognised than any non-indigenous artist that we have produced.
> There is so much out there Australians just not interested sadly.



This just goes to how enjoyment of any form of so called art is a very personal thing.  I saw an art collector on TV recently raving about an aboriginal painting.  He said "it sent chills down my spine".  It was shown on the screen.  It did absolutely nothing for me.  As always, it's always in the cliched eye of the beholder.
You can't force people to like what they instinctively don't enjoy.

Anything further on the numbers involved in the study you referred to earlier?
Without knowing numbers or the protocol of the study, it's difficult to say how statistically valid any conclusions might be.


----------



## Sean K (14 March 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> Kennas
> 
> I love their art. Totally stunning and far more internationally recognised than any non-indigenous artist that we have produced. Whole gallery in Paris devoted to it. We do not even have that in Sydney as far as I know.
> 
> ...



Spaghetti, I agree, they've created a wonderful style of abstract and expressionist art, I suppose. Even Prince Harry got caught ripping it off. I actually enjoy the style, like I enjoy Kandinsky. Love it in fact. 

And yes, the didgeridoo can make some amazing music.

However, it's important not to romanticise about a culture too much without looking at it in objective context. 

In the bigger picture I have to ask myself what they have value added to the 'advancement' of the human species. I'm struggling at the moment. 

Use of tools, hunting techniques, bush medicine, language, tracking, etc etc, are all pretty ho hum in the world picture really. And their understanding and care for the environment has been argued previously. I still doubt whether burning off hundreds of acres of bush was good for regeneration, or if it was just lazy hunting. I'm sure they would have dynamited rivers to catch fish, if they had have invented dynamite. 

I have to wonder how 'rich' the Dreamtime understanding of the beginning of things is as well, or whether it's just another primitive way to understand why the sun 'rises' each morning, and how the rivers got there. 

And for a culture that's been on this land for thousands of years (or is that millions?) which is chock full of natural resources, such as haematite, how the heck didn't they come up with iron tools at some point? Obviously not required I suppose. Or, did they?  

I think Australians would be interested, if it was interesting. All most of us do is look in and think, where the hell is that wheel!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 March 2008)

Only trouble I see with Ab art is the fact that criminal (knife wielding) whites are exploiting it. 

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2187863.htm


> Bashing won't stop art fraud investigations: Toyne
> PM - Wednesday, 12 March , 2008  18:46:00
> Reporter: Anne Barker
> MARK COLVIN: A former Northern Territory politician believes he was brutally bashed last month because of his new role trying to crack down on art fraud.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 March 2008)

be interesting to see if any truckies are taken to court over this.

Teachers out there say if you can't get a young girl interested in school by the time she should be in high school "you've lost her to the truckies" 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/14/2189111.htm


> Truckies 'target Aboriginal girls for paid sex'
> Posted Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:23am AEDT
> Updated Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:23am AEDT
> Aboriginal teenage girls from north-west New South Wales claim they are being targeted by truck drivers offering cash for sex.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2008)

PS And that goes for the cottin-chippers out there too apparently.

And the other forms of exploitation - like publicans who double as agricultural labour subcontractors - organising Abs to work on farms - and insisting paying them largely with credit at the pub.


----------



## Julia (15 March 2008)

I suppose it would be politically incorrect to ask where are the parents of eight year old girls who are having sex late at night with truck drivers?


----------



## Sean K (15 March 2008)

Julia said:


> I suppose it would be politically incorrect to ask where are the parents of eight year old girls who are having sex late at night with truck drivers?



It does make you wonder. I suppose they're in a gutter, or a park somewhere. Probably caused by the white man's lack of social support I suppose. Or, maybe it's part Aboriginal custom to give kids free reign from a young age. What is the tradional age of consent to sell your body for drugs? It's tough to make jokes of this terrible situation. I just can't believe it's happening in our little corner of the woods. Perhaps that's why it is. We (especially the aboriginal community) haven't done enough to stop it from eventuating. Quite embarrassing really.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2008)

kennas said:


> And then lets ask for compensation.
> 
> Maybe the circumstances are a tad different but it's a tad ironic too.
> 
> ...




kennas - I'm gonna move on from the accusations in your post.
But there's a point here.   Which is easier? 

a) Take the schools - and the teachers etc - to the kids; or 
b)   take the kids to the schools. 

I mean, you could have sensible class sizes for a starter. - and as if there are enough teachers to go round. 

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2190059.htm


> Calls for Indigenous children to be sent to boarding schools
> PM - Friday, 14 March , 2008  18:18:00
> Reporter: Annie Guest
> LISA MILLAR: There's been support today for calls for children in remote Aboriginal communities to be sent away to boarding schools.
> ...


----------



## tigerboi (15 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> be interesting to see if any truckies are taken to court over this.
> 
> Teachers out there say if you can't get a young girl interested in school by the time she should be in high school "you've lost her to the truckies"
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/14/2189111.htm




Interesting story once again from the ABC,im not saying it has not happened however its veracity needs to be tested,as an interstate truck driver myself ive run sydney-goondiwindi-sydney shuttle & i used to fuel up at night on the way south at the boggablla servo,i never saw any of this activity or heard it on the 2 way,bogabilla servo & parking bay is a long way from any houses.
Now onto moree,as most of us interstate guys drive b/doubles there is nowhere to pull up in mooree,ive only stopped once & at maccas real early & i blocked 1/2 a driveway just to get some sustenance.It is forbidden to pick up any hitch hikers & it is an instant sackable offence as they are not covered by insurance,funny thing is i did give 2 black fellas a lift south of gunnedah one early saturday morning & they only wanted to go about 20 kms down the road after a heavy night on the turps,no dramas as the cars wouldnt stop.The transport industry has changed alot over the say last 10 years & there are many more responsible operators,myself despite being a young 42,fit & healthy,i go through that many medicals its not  funny,for my b/double licence i have a full monty medical every 3 years & all b/double drivers over 50 must have one each year,for me personally say if ive come from melbourne-bogabilla en route to brisbane the only thing i do after i get my duds off is climb into the bunk,but then again im not on the go fast gear looking to put your stiffy where it should not be,Its a disappointing report to see,but like i said this would be a few rogues that need to be sorted out,the mooree elders should go up there to see things right,one thing to remember going into & out of boggabilla the black fellas of a night time always end up knuckling each other in the middle of the road,careful...tb


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## 2020hindsight (15 March 2008)

Julia said:


> I suppose it would be politically incorrect to ask where are the parents of eight year old girls who are having sex late at night with truck drivers?



Julia
what makes you think it's just at night?  

Fed coalition asking to extend "the Intervention" and State Coalition asking for "an independent judicial review" ...  might catch some truck drivers and /or some cottin-chippin pedaphiles for starters. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/14/2190126.htm


> New allegations emerge in Boggabilla sex scandal
> Posted Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:06pm AEDT
> Updated 11 hours 39 minutes ago
> 
> ...




"The Intervention" (imo) is/was just an admission that policing etc facilities have been under-resourced for "a long time".   And the NT intervention just took police away from NSW etc. 



> NSW Opposition Leader Barry O'Farrell is calling for the allegations to be independently examined.
> 
> "In relation to those episodes discovered in the Northern Territory, one person spoke out, it created an avalanche but more importantly it prompted a government response to establish an independent review," he said.
> 
> "*What's required as a result of these allegations is an independent judicial review to be undertaken and for charges, if necessary, to be laid*."



you bet, Barry. 

And moving into the future, now that the Abs have been given a hint of self respect and acknowledgment with the change of Govt, maybe people / kids etc will start to come forward. - Whistle Blowers etc - hopefully they'll get better treatment that Gillian Sneddon, the Orkopoulos whistleblower who has been sacked. 



> State Aboriginal Affairs Minister Paul Lynch refused to answer questions today, *but issued a statement urging anyone with evidence of child sexual abuse to contact police*.
> 
> Speaking out
> 
> ...


----------



## noirua (15 March 2008)

Perhaps we can see an underlying problem concerning Aboriginals and the tourist trade at Uluru. Ayers Rock was given over to them in 1903. 

Day after day the coaches arrive with tourists, well dressed with expensive cameras, clickity click etc., all enjoying themselves. Not far away on the otherside of Uluru the aboriginals live in poverty and none of the tourist cash reaches their rundown properties.

The phrase "dropped the bundle" is used in terms of the state everything is in and their lack of will to do anything about it.


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## 2020hindsight (15 March 2008)

2020 said:
			
		

> And moving into the future, now that the Abs have been given a hint of self respect and acknowledgment with the change of Govt, maybe people / kids etc will start to come forward. - Whistle Blowers etc - hopefully they'll get better treatment that Gillian Sneddon, the Orkopoulos whistleblower who has been sacked.



btw, maybe we need a change of State Govt to sort this out. 
I'd be totally in favour of that I can tell you.  
The only way to "Keep the bastards honest" is to give em a turn on the opposition stalls it seems (ask anyone from  Wollongong)



			
				tiger said:
			
		

> 1. It is forbidden to pick up any hitch hikers & it is an instant sackable offence as they are not covered by insurance,
> 
> 2. The transport industry has changed alot over the say last 10 years & there are many more responsible operators,
> 
> ...




tiger - not just truckies, you're right. (as per the exposure about itinerant cotton workers that's now starting to flood the media  - yes!!!)
3. a few rogues as you say
1. not sure the rogues were driving when they invited the kids into their cabins.- raped a few and all, - according to those accusations 
2. good
4. m8 you eat that much kangaroo, and drink that much whiteman's firewater, you'd probably do the same.


----------



## Spaghetti (18 March 2008)

kennas said:


> Spaghetti, I agree, they've created a wonderful style of abstract and expressionist art, I suppose. Even Prince Harry got caught ripping it off. I actually enjoy the style, like I enjoy Kandinsky. Love it in fact.
> 
> And yes, the didgeridoo can make some amazing music.
> 
> ...




I guess it depends on whether you think our system is good. I do not. I see cities full of wage slaves and unhappy, stressed out people. Captain Cook himself described the aborigines as happier than Europeans. In their eyes our way of life may not seem so attractive and who could blame them? I do not see their way of life appealing to me but then nor do I see our way any better, just what I am conditioned to accept (though not very well lol). I believe some aboriginal influence on our culture would be very good, needn't go only one way.

The burning of vegetation. This is interesting topic in itself. Useful for those studying climate change. The Australian megafauna died out about the time of the arrival of aboriginals. The demise of these animals is put down to the loss of lush vegation to fire replaced by the never ending sea of gum trees we have now. The fires essentially killed off many species of plants leaving only the fire resisant to survive and no food for megafuana. The question is was climate change responsible for the intial outbreak of fires or were aboriginal people? Add another theory into the mix that aborigines actually hunted down the last of the megafauna. Still there is debate that a relative small number of humans may have assisted in the dramatic changes seen on the planet during the end of the last ice age.

Anyways whether they played a part in the original destruction of forests or not there subsequent land management was far superior to ours. We have cattle running where no hoofed animal has ever trodden destroying the savanah and of course down south the salt problem. We managed to do a of of damage in a small space of time. 

They did survive though without mining iron ore, without exploiting the land as rapidly as we have. They had a far higher skill set than normal people have today. The progress of our society is dictated by population growth. Once a number of people live together each can be assigned a task. The higher the population the stripping down of individual skills becomes apparent.The US is a great example of this. Humans living in societies rather than tribes or clans for eg need some people to simply be able to clean toilets all day, or drive a bus all day, or write cheques all day, or sell phones all day. We reduce individual capacity. So building of societies may have helped progress for the masses but I do not subscribe to the view it makes for happier individuals.


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## Julia (31 March 2008)

Timely article from Sunday Mail journalist, Terry Sweetman.
_________________________

Problem not just black and white 


By: Terry Sweetman    





THE nurses went on strike and Florence Nightingale's lamp dimmed in our more remote indigenous settlements.
It was a drastic step but the only recourse in the face of dysfunctional authority that has failed to provide them with safe working and living conditions.
The Government deserved everything it got; the communities got everything they deserved.
In fact, it might be time for the Government to put some communities on notice that it will go on strike if they don't get their act together and start to regulate their lives and townships.
It hurts me to write these words because I know they give comfort to the racist trash I hold in contempt.
We collectively have a responsibility to right the wrongs of the past, to lift Aboriginal living standards to the Australian norm, to help them lead productive and fulfilling lives and to bridge the disgraceful 17-year gap in life expectancy that is a stain on our nation.
But indigenous people, too, have responsibilities.
They have a responsibility to ensure the safety of nurses, teachers, welfare workers, council administrators and cops who are there to help them.
We can't forget the Government's historic and calamitous neglect of indigenous welfare, but why should nurses live in communities where their safety, their dignity and their lives are at risk?
Why should cops who are there to stop the violence against women and the abuse of children be subjected to racial contempt and violence?
Why should teachers have to suffer the indignity and frustration of fronting up to near-empty classrooms each day?
Why should council administrators suffer abuse and scorn because they try to put into place some of the financial responsibility the communities demand?
They're not all angels, but why should all these people have to live in compounds and behind bars, alienated from the people they serve?
Why do we have to listen to blather about self-determination, responsibility and the wisdom of elders when people can't even round up their kids and send them to school and respect for basic human rights is non-existent. We can probably never invest enough resources to make some of these communities completely functional, but our contribution is not to be sneezed at.
Take Woorabinda. It is a community of somewhere between 900 and 940 (according to various sources).
It has eight police officers, to be increased to 11 by July 1.
That, according to Police Minister Judy Spence, will give it ``the largest police-to-population ratio in Queensland or the world''.
What a terrible indictment of Woorabinda, particularly when the rest of us get by with one cop for every 439 Queenslanders.
Four of these police will live in converted shipping containers. They're pretty good shipping containers by all accounts but not exactly what most young men and women aspire to.
Woorabinda is one place where the Government did go on strike, or threatened to go on strike, when it warned there would be no more houses until people stopped trashing them.
I don't know the current health of Woorabinda's houses and I'm sure it's not all peace and light, but there were encouraging signs under then mayor Laurence Weazel. He was defeated in the local government elections, so will his vision survive or is it back to abnormal normality for Woorabinda?
The collective abrogation of responsibility was unintentionally summed up by former head of the Northern Land Council Galarrwuy Yunupingu last week when he called for mission-style dormitories for Aboriginal children.
``The missionary days were good,'' he said. ``The missionaries looked after the kids much better than the Government does today.'' Missionaries? Government? Are there no parents?
sweetwords@ozemail.com.au 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Happy (31 March 2008)

Julia said:


> Are there no parents?




To cynical eye it looks as if they are trying to have kids stolen again for compensation number 2, irrespectively of why kids were removed in a first place.

But this would start circle number n!


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 June 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/15/2274925.htm


> AMA pulls out of NT intervention
> Posted 3 hours 8 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 56 minutes ago
> *Australia's peak doctors' group has withdrawn from any future role in the Northern Territory intervention*.
> ...







> 'Politically motivated'
> 
> It is a year since the Little Children are Sacred Report was released, with almost 100 recommendations for stopping child abuse in the Northern Territory.
> 
> ...






> But Northern Territory Chief Minister Paul Henderson says he will not dwell on the past.
> 
> "It's about looking forward, not looking back. It's about seizing the opportunity to work with an incoming Labor government," he said.
> 
> "Let's take the politics out of this."






> .......
> "We need more prosecutors who are prepared to do this type of work," he said. "The Government's given us more resources to employ more prosecutors but we don't seem to get the sort of young keen people coming through."
> .....
> Mr Coates says unless more interpreters can be found, Aboriginal people will not be able to fully participate in the justice system.He says getting people in small interlinked communities to come forward with sex abuse allegations is difficult enough, but finding and training translators who can interpret and relay evidence in court cases is proving to be a difficult task.
> ...




Rather than get interpreters, maybe teach them english. 
Imo, The intervention was never sustainable, but at least it got some action after a decade of being swept under the carpet.


----------



## Julia (15 June 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/15/2274925.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pretty hard to do this when the kids don't turn up to school.


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## 2020hindsight (15 June 2008)

J, rewording then, let’s just say it is another strong motivation to teach them English.  (and I believe they are working on the school attendance aren't they? - nothing that can be changed overnight incidentally, they have enough trouble getting teachers to go bush to teach in the bigger towns)

Maybe I'm being unfairly suspicious here, but I'd be wary of some accused child molester pleading in court 

a)	“me no speaka da English – only speak (pick some obscure dialect) ” – 
b)	in fact “me the only person in the world who speak my dialect”
c)	and the case being dropped because there were no reliable interpreters. (which you could infer is happening to a lesser or greater extent in some areas for some court appearances)

That also goes for prosecution -  or defence - witnesses obviously, whose story maybe cannot be told because there might not be an interpreter. 

PS When I think about it, I'm sure this is a massive problem every day in our multi-lingual court system. Just that I'd never thought of it applying to the Abs before 


> http://www.dnathan.com/VL/austLang.htm
> Aboriginal English
> Anjumarla
> Arabana
> ...


----------



## nioka (15 June 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> J, rewording then, let’s just say it is another strong motivation to teach them English.  (and I believe they are working on the school attendance aren't they? - nothing that can be changed overnight incidentally, they have enough trouble getting teachers to go bush to teach in the bigger towns)
> 
> Maybe I'm being unfairly suspicious here, but I'd be wary of some accused child molester pleading in court
> 
> ...




I doubt that there are many who do not understand english. Centrelink, the local pub, motor registries and mining companies don't need interpreters to talk to them.


----------



## Happy (15 June 2008)

nioka said:


> I doubt that there are many who do not understand english. Centrelink, the local pub, motor registries and mining companies don't need interpreters to talk to them.




Just another trick to get away with.


----------



## Happy (10 July 2008)

> From ABC, 10 Jul. 08
> INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TOLD TO DO MORE ON HEALTH
> 
> Federal Health Minister Nicola Roxon has called on Indigenous Australians to take more responsibility for closing the life-expectancy gap by tackling high rates of smoking.
> ...





I came past this comment and find it hard not to agree with


----------



## fordxbt (14 July 2008)

well my friend you gotta say
i wont pay
i wont pay ya,  no waaaay
na na why dont you get a job


----------



## Happy (3 November 2008)

> From ABC, 03 Nov. 08
> 
> NO INTERPRETERS FOR NT SEX CASE
> 
> ...





Looks like trick: no interpreter still working, only question what will lawyers think of next?


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 November 2008)

Happy said:


> Looks like trick: no interpreter still working, only question what will lawyers think of next?



Happy, Sounds fishy alright. Think I said something similar in #641.  (Probably happens with other languages too I guess)

The Palm Island matter is interesting. (Mulrunji Doomadgee / Chris Hurley / Lex Wotton).   Wotton has been sentenced for starting riot - 7 years, eligible for parole in 19 months.  Still he was reacting to one of his friends being taken to a police watchhouse - only to die there with 2 broken ribs and a punctured lung. 

Wotton's family are happy with the sentence (as I understand it), "judge showed wisdom of Solomon" etc - which is admirable imo.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/07/2413572.htm



> Last year, Queensland Police Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley was found not guilty of Mulrunji's death and this week police involved in quelling the riot were awarded bravery medals.
> 
> Palm Island mayor Alf Lacey says he respects the judge's decision to put Wotton behind bars.
> 
> ...


----------



## noirua (8 November 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Happy, Sounds fishy alright. Think I said something similar in #641.
> 
> The Palm Island matter is interesting. (Mulrunji Doomadgee / Chris Hurley / Lex Wotton).   Wotton has been sentenced - 7 years, eligible for parole in 19 months.  Still he was reacting to one of his friends being taken to a police watchhouse - only to die there with 2 broken ribs and a punctured lung.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 November 2008)

noirua said:


> Wisdom of Solomon maybe. They should look much deeper into police involvement here. Is it a whitewash?




Hurley wants to overturn coronial enquiry.
 CHRIS HURLEY APPEAL

Civil Law Compensation claims in the wings. 

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/new...gee-death-smear/2008/09/05/1220121488412.html



> Hurley bid to remove Doomadgee death smear
> Evan Schwarten | September 5, 2008 - 11:38AM
> 
> Mr Doomadgee's five sisters and his de facto partner, Tracey Twaddle, late last year launched a $900,000 civil lawsuit against Queensland Police over the death.
> ...


----------



## chops_a_must (8 November 2008)

How on earth can you be sentenced to 7 years for starting a riot?

You get less for murder.


----------



## noirua (10 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> How on earth can you be sentenced to 7 years for starting a riot?
> 
> You get less for murder.



They should get even less than one month for murder.  They should be shot by firing squad.


----------



## bluelabel (11 November 2008)

Just found this thread and thought I would share a story.  please note that i have not read the etire thread, just bobbys original post.

A number of years back, about 10, I was working for a now taken over supermarket chain in my early working years.  There was this girl working there who only worked about 10 hours a week.  I asked her if she would do any more hours and she said no.  I asked her why, and she replied cause I don’t have to.  I am aboriginal and to receive my benefit from the government I need only to work 10 hours per week.  I though, ok that’s fair enough, except she was whiter than I! I queried, you don’t look aboriginal, and she replied well I am actually one tenth aboriginal and have a family tree to prove it and was very offended I questioned her aboriginality.

Apparently some distant relative was aboriginal, and then they weren’t even full blooded aboriginal.  I found this to be a disgrace that she was classed as and had equal rights to full blooded aboriginals because she could prove a one tenth stake.   I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.  This girl would never lift a finger more than she had to because she was classed as aboriginal. The sad part is that she was only 16 or 17 at the time so i feel it was fair to say that this attitude was drummed into her from a young age. I also found out later her mum was doing the same thing... 

:bier:

blue


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## 2020hindsight (11 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> How on earth can you be sentenced to 7 years for starting a riot?
> 
> You get less for murder.



Theory is that the family were told "he could well get life" etc etc 
In fact he would never have got life - he was a seriously responsible member of the comunity.   But anyway, given those expectations, the family were pleased when the sentence was read out 

If anyone is interested, Radio National's Law Report on Lex Wotton is worth a listen (30 mins in all) 
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lawreport/stories/2008/2416076.htm

There is vocal and also a transcript there  - I might post some extracts "later". cheers.

eg 



> Damien Carrick: What's your reaction to the sentence, which could have been much longer?
> 
> Andrew Boe: It's a very complex situation, isn't it? I was surprised to hear such acceptance by the Indigenous community and the family. *The framework must have been pushed to them that there's a possibility that he'd get life imprisonment, which is nonsense. *I mean there's no prospect of that sort of penalty being meted on anybody convicted of this sort of offence, even though that is the maximum.





> Andrew Boe (barrister): There's been no question at all that Lex regretted the outcomes and has great remorse about the harm caused to police physically in the emotional sense, and the fear that these people felt in this quite extraordinary situation. His challenge has been to deal with the fact that on that day, under high levels of provocation which I'll return to, he responded in a way that cumulated in this riot. He's never denied that, and he's always regretted that a man who has usually been very passive all his life, has responded in this way. But I think it's important to look at that issue of provocation. It is a matter that the judge referred to and that I spent some time in my reference speaking about.
> 
> You have to remember that the Palm Island community have had all its deprivations to this point as a community -- and that's fairly well recorded in many things that have been written about Palm -- was faced with a situation where one of their own, who they knew well and who they knew to be happy-go-lucky, went into a police arrest situation for swearing and was dead about 40 minutes later. And not long after that, we have an official release from the Coroner's Office saying, *'Listen, as a community, please don't speculate, it's all OK, it was just an accident.'*
> 
> ...






> Stewart Levitt :- there was considerable evidence that Lex Wotten had done his best to protect the police from injury, that he had used his influence to disperse the crowds at various times, and had had from a more incendiary initial role, developed a conciliatory and negotiating role, mediation role, between the crowds and police. And moreover, not only had he managed to bring the riot to an end without any significant casualties being inflicted on anybody, *but he'd also had demonstrated in his life an amazing sense of discipline, a constructive contribution towards the people of Palm Island, working to try to end youth suicide, to working to promote better conditions for education and jobs for Aborigines on Palm Island*.
> 
> He'd been a member of the Palm Island Council, he brought one council down a few years ago and the Administrator appointed on the basis of the alleged corruption of the then mayor. And in addition to that, he had testimonials from people across Australia; white people, black people, radical people, moderate people, trade unionists, politicians, professors, all saying what a fine man he was, and the judge took all those factors into account.


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## white_crane (20 November 2008)

We often judge a group by the actions of a few.  And first impressions can be hard to overcome as well.

I work alongside 4 aboriginals and get on really well with all of them, to the extent that we can make jokes that might otherwise be considered offensive or racist.


What is an aboriginal?  Well, that is a personal matter of subjective opinion.  What do you identify yourself as?


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## Julia (26 November 2008)

It's good to read something positive about a community which has been so vilified in the media.  From today's Crikey.com.



> Graham Ring from National Indigenous Times, reports from Wadeye, NT:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Whiskers (26 November 2008)

Julia said:


> It's good to read something positive about a community which has been so vilified in the media.  From today's Crikey.com.




I recall seeing something like that on TV. Very encouraging to see.

There are a lot of very passionate teachers, many aboriginal trying to get better resources from the system to do that sort of thing.

There are some good aboriginal bands/musicans about. There was one I liked that SBS used to play as a filler of an aboriginal band shot along the beach. I think it was 'Dots on the shells' by Yothu Yindi.

Does anyone know the names of some aboriginal singers and groups?


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## white_crane (30 November 2008)

Whiskers said:


> Does anyone know the names of some aboriginal singers and groups?




Geoffrey Gurrumul Yunupingu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Gurrumul_Yunupingu

His website:
http://www.gurrumul.com/


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## Happy (21 February 2009)

> From ABC, 21 Feb. 09
> 
> INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES UNDER THREAT, UN FINDS
> 
> ...





Sooner we (the World) decide to adopt one universal language the better.
I know there is sentimental value, but communication is one of the reasons for many problems.

And we would not have problems like in post  #641 and  #646


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## tigerboi (25 February 2009)

*Re:warumpi band: top blackfella band*



Whiskers said:


> Does anyone know the names of some aboriginal singers and groups?




checkout the warumpi band good bunch of kooris back in the 80's-90's,done the blackfella/whitefella tour with the oils i think

http://www.neilmurray.com.au/wb_history.html

on boobtube as well

checkout archie roach hes pretty good


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## Happy (23 March 2009)

> From ABC, 23 Mar. 09
> LET US RUN CROC HUNTING SAFARIS: ABORIGINAL GROUP
> 
> A Darwin Aboriginal group is appealing to the Federal and Territory Governments to allow it to run crocodile hunting safaris.
> ...




Why Safari management has to do anything with race?


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## Happy (11 April 2009)

> From ABC, 11 Apr. 09
> 
> CULTURAL SENSITIVITY DIRECTIVES 'BAMBOOZLE' TEACHERS
> 
> ...





Step forward that somebody was allowed to write and publish something like that.


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## Bobby (11 April 2009)

And the industry self invents again !


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## Happy (20 May 2009)

> From ABC, 20 May 2009
> 
> ABORIGINAL HOMELANDS POLICY UNVEILED
> 
> ...





This is how civilised society works; we have largest, smaller and smallest centres and then settlements, you cannot service every hut.

Catch phrase: "another Stolen Generation" claim sounds like a bad joke to me.


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## Happy (9 June 2009)

> From ABC, 9 Jun. 09
> 
> CUSTOMARY LAW NO DEFENCE FOR ACCUSED WIFE-STABBER
> 
> ...





Not bad, some folk in whole Australia could use this customary law and would feel at home too.


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## Happy (23 June 2009)

> From ABC, 23 Jun. 09
> DYING FOR A DRINK: NEW THEORY ON GIANT ROO EXTINCTION
> 
> Researchers have found more evidence that hunting by humans may have caused the extinction of the giant kangaroo.
> ...





For all those who push the Aboriginal guardianship of all fauna and flora in Australia.

It looks more like that they did not manage to extinguish more species rather than that they actively protected them.


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## Sean K (2 July 2009)

*Report on indigenous disadvantage is devastating, says Rudd*

Christian Kerr | July 02, 2009 
Article from:  The Australian 

KEVIN Rudd has described as "devastating" a new report that shows how little has been achieved in closing the disadvantage gap between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians.


Maybe they should Australian society?


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## Tisme (30 October 2015)

Good to see Aboriginal Nygina women making it in corporate life:


clicky on blue for picture:




> What was your biggest career break?
> 
> Having the opportunity to be part of the management of a 100-year-old law firm with such a long and proud tradition, as well as being the first Aboriginal woman and first woman to be the managing director at Dwyer Durack. I am a Nygina woman from the Kimberley and I started my law degree as a mature age student in 1996. I would not be in this position if not for an indigenous student alternative entry program called Koora Kudidj at Murdoch University. (While) I was studying to obtain my law degree I was awarded the John Koowarta Scholarship, won the Commercial Law prize and graduated with a Bachelor of Laws (Honours). Then in February 2000, I joined Dwyer Durack where I now head up the general litigation and commercial department.





https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/26560622/june-kenny/


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## SirRumpole (30 October 2015)

Not so good for some though...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-30/uncle-jack-taxi/6901120


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## Tisme (30 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Not so good for some though...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-30/uncle-jack-taxi/6901120




I'm guessing pigmentation is working against him.


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## SirRumpole (30 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing pigmentation is working against him.




Would be interesting to know if the driver that sped off was a dinky-di Aussie bogan or one of our foreign friends.


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## Tisme (30 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Would be interesting to know if the driver that sped off was a dinky-di Aussie bogan or one of our foreign friends.




I think it's safe to say many taxi drivers these days are not only real racists, but happy to exhibit it.


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## poverty (30 October 2015)

Ok let me admit something here.  10 years ago when I was a younger bloke I used to drive a few cabs.  I'd never met an aborginal in my life, and didn't for the first year.  After that year I met some, couldn't pay, wanted to bash me etc etc.  Apprently a mob had moved down from Mildura.  Suddenly more and more similiar encounters follwed and were exactly the same, occasionally you'd get some good ones, if they were flush with drug or centrelink money, but anyone driving soon learned it wasn't worth the risk. Despite not being a racist or even thinking anything about racism only a few years before, I quickly learned all of the indiginous adresses in the town and simply didn't show up if given those addresses.  It saved me a lot of money and not getting a sore head.  And yes if harrassed by the usual suspects at the rank you were better off driving away than becoming embroiled.


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