# Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses



## boofis (6 May 2012)

Greetings all,

So I fall in the category of still deciding what to do with my life (Nearly finished B.of Science - double major chemistry and microbiology) and figured this would be a good place to hopefully hear alot of peoples opinions. 
I've discovered the things I enjoy doing in life and will carry on doing them but unfortunately they, at best, only return 40-50k/year which imo is not enough to make something of life and raise a family etc. 
So my question is; what do you consider a figure which is the new standard, or basic figure, to be earning to be able to sufficiently look after your family, own your own home and hopefully have some left over to retire on? 
I've been asking a few people this and 100k is a figure that seems to keep coming up so far. 
What do you think?


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## Vixs (6 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



boofis said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> So I fall in the category of still deciding what to do with my life (Nearly finished B.of Science - double major chemistry and microbiology) and figured this would be a good place to hopefully hear alot of peoples opinions.
> I've discovered the things I enjoy doing in life and will carry on doing them but unfortunately they, at best, only return 40-50k/year which imo is not enough to make something of life and raise a family etc.
> ...




It would vary wildly with how long you're willing to take to pay off your mortgage and the value of it, whether or not you have a partner and whether or not they will be working the majority of the time (maybe a few years off while the kids are young) and how disciplined you are with your budget.

It also depends on how willing you are to make some sacrifices to make it easier n the long run. 

My personal goals are these:
1. Be my own boss.
2. Own my own house outright before my kids are in high school.
3. Support my wife through 3-5 years off work so she can take time to (hopefully) raise our kids before we want to send them to daycare.
4. Work on creating and investing in passive income generating assets until we no longer need to work full-time for a living in the future.

We sat down and worked out that we can do this if between us we earn $100k gross per year. There's no jet ski or benz on the list, but it's a comfortable living in a slightly outer suburb house and a private education for the kids.


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## CanOz (6 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*

When i finished school and started work i was earning a respectable 20-30k in 1990. It took almost 15 years to work up the ladder and earn over 80k (i wasn't unionized i guess) . Do you honestly expect to come right out of school and actually think you add value to a business?

When we hire masters students for management trainee positions, we have to bring them back down to reality and let them know that they do not add value,in fact they remove value for the first five years. It is only with a ton of practical experience and learning from that ton of mistakes to they become employees of real potential, capable of continuously adding value.

You will only discover your true earning potential when someone else discovers your value. Such is being an employee.

Be an entrepreneur...

CanOz


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## boofis (6 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*

Vixs, thanks for your thoughts. Have I understood this correctly that your passive income is to generate assets e.g. property? 

Canaussieuck, good thoughts. I guess I feel my situation is probably a little bit different to the pure business world in the sense that I have been developing a skill set for lab work which doesn't necessarily require me to bring something new to the table as much as it does carry out routine tasks. There's a lot of repetition in research! 
Care to elaborate on your last sentence? 
Is that the path you took?


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## CanOz (6 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



boofis said:


> Is that the path you took?




No, but i sort of wish i had. I always said 'if i worked this bloody hard for myself, I'd be a rich man by now!".

You'll never get ahead working for someone else. 

CanOz


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## Starcraftmazter (6 May 2012)

Being able to invest your savings and get a big return is more important than having a high salary. The reason I say this is because imo it's far more important to do a job you like.

How much money is enough, who knows. I don't plan to buy a house and start a family this decade, and by the time it's over we may well have a complete social and economic collapse - so why plan so far ahead


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## Vixs (6 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



boofis said:


> Vixs, thanks for your thoughts. Have I understood this correctly that your passive income is to generate assets e.g. property?




I would like to build and grow a diversified asset base, something that includes property, shares, fixed interest, even an element of precious metals.

As far as income - dividend income would be ideal, commercial and residential property would also be a part of it, and having enough 'safe' interest income to pay the bills should nothing else work out at that point in time.

It's not a small goal, it's my life target (financially).

The reply above said it all though - how much you earn pales in comparison to what you do with it. As long as you can keep yourself ahead of the curve when it comes to meeting the cost of living, everything else is gravy.

It costs quite a lot to cover what I consider the basics:
Rent/Mortgage & Rates
Utilities
Car Rego
Car Maintenance
Home Maintenance
Insurance - Home/Contents/Motor Vehicle/Income Protection/Life
Food
Fuel

That's before you consider anything you want to do to ENJOY your life that might cost money. Once you have all those things covered though, anything else you earn is pretty much disposable (or further investable).

What I'm rambling on about is that you would probably feel a whole lot wealthier going from 60k to 70k than you would going from 40k to 50k.


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## ROE (7 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



Vixs said:


> It would vary wildly with how long you're willing to take to pay off your mortgage and the value of it, whether or not you have a partner and whether or not they will be working the majority of the time (maybe a few years off while the kids are young) and how disciplined you are with your budget.
> 
> It also depends on how willing you are to make some sacrifices to make it easier n the long run.
> 
> ...




You doing well if you can do all this at 100K gross a year plus left over for investing..
here are some of the number

100K gross leave you around 65K after tax and super
borrow 400K to buy a properties over 25 years (interest+principle)

that take out 36K a year off 65K

depend how many kids you got say 2 Kids, average cost for cheap private school is 5K each that's 10K ..you left with 19K

Rate: another 1.5K a year
Electricity + water : another 3K or more a year
Car: cost around 7K a year to run including cost of buying a car...

food, medical expense etc... you be left with little for investing or non at all...


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## Eager (7 May 2012)

boofis,

You should have forgotten about uni and got a trade.

If you were ambitious/entrepeneurial enough at the time, you could have sold yourself to the employer as the one to accept you for the 4-year, paid-as-you-learn apprenticeship, with an ongoing 6-figure wage in the right industry.

But I digress. The amount of money you need to sustain a decent living depends ENTIRELY on where you live. Move to regional Australia (not the sticks; I'm suggesting reasonably sized towns within commutable distance to the capital city in any State) and you will find cheap property and an enviable lifestyle.


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## StumpyPhantom (7 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



ROE said:


> You doing well if you can do all this at 100K gross a year plus left over for investing..
> here are some of the number
> 
> 100K gross leave you around 65K after tax and super
> ...




Couldn't agree with ROE more.  When you're starting out,your biggest expense is going to be the interest bill on your own home (if you've got one, otherwise your rent payments) and your most significant long-term saving is that 9% plus that's being socked away for you in super.  That's not even mentioning the arduous task of saving for a deposit (good luck if a wealthy parent cuts you a cheque for that!).

That super doesn't appear on your radar atm (understandably) but if you're talking long term, then that's what you'd be poring over in your 50's, wondering whether there's enough in there for exactly the things you've nominated that you want in your lifestyle.

Then the double-hit: mortgage and kids at the same time (you don't live/work long enough to pay off a mortgage for 15 years and still be fertile enough to bear children).  With both of you working, you'll be lucky to get a grandparent to chip in so that one of your incomes doesn't get soaked up in childcare.

Bottom line (after this long-drawn out dribble)?  Avoid the double hit as much as possible.  Do multiple jobs amongst the 2 of you before the kids come along.  Scrimp and save everything, and it's possible to clean up the mortgage in around 5 years.  You should almost be house-searching in a suburb which fits this 5-year pay-off scenario.  At that point, your assets are sitting in the 4 walls around you, and you have about $2000 per month extra unencumbered cash to plan the rest of your life.


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## Dowdy (7 May 2012)

How much do you need to live?

Simple - Live with your parents as long as possible. 

70 bucks a week, you can't go wrong

Give you a massive head start if you want to be your own boss


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## boofis (7 May 2012)

Eager said:


> boofis,
> 
> You should have forgotten about uni and got a trade.




I did that (Shearing and slaughtering; not trades per say but one provided decent income, the other a fallback) and found it as rewarding as doing nothing with my life, so have had to compromise on the $$$ for a 'career' I enjoy, whilst hopefully not sacrificing dollars too much, all the while developing a specific investment skills set to aid in the process. 
I do find the thought of family/home/kids rather financially daunting.


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## Julia (7 May 2012)

ROE said:


> Rate: another 1.5K a year
> Electricity + water : another 3K or more a year



Really, I'll have to move to wherever you live.



Eager said:


> But I digress. The amount of money you need to sustain a decent living depends ENTIRELY on where you live. Move to regional Australia (not the sticks; I'm suggesting reasonably sized towns within commutable distance to the capital city in any State) and you will find cheap property and an enviable lifestyle.



Is that right, Eager:   I live in such a location (pop 55,000, coastal fast growing city within reasonable distance to capital city.
Rates:   $2300 p.a.
Electricity & water:  $5000 p.a.

So maybe don't be so sure of your suggestions to others when you are not factually aware.


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## StumpyPhantom (7 May 2012)

boofis said:


> I did that (Shearing and slaughtering; not trades per say but one provided decent income, the other a fallback) and found it as rewarding as doing nothing with my life, so have had to compromise on the $$$ for a 'career' I enjoy, whilst hopefully not sacrificing dollars too much, all the while developing a specific investment skills set to aid in the process.
> I do find the thought of family/home/kids rather financially daunting.




I wouldn't take the implication that in order to get ahead financially, you have to go 'one out' and be an entrepreneur, and almost forge/invent a new path.  That's fraught with the significant risk of financial ruin (it's a significant % of businesses that fail in the first 5 years).

You can get ahead as part of a large, professional organisation.  It's already created the template for running a business and making money.  You just need that edge that says you're good technically at what you do, but that you've got what extra is required to get ahead - be they management, business skills or innovative approaches to what you do to increase profit or cut costs.  In other words, the 'business' of what you do.

Once your bosses see that in you (as I have seen in the young person I'm grooming to take over from me when I go in less than 10 years), then it's in their commercial interests not just to retain you, but to promote you so that you enhance the business.

Look around you at the 50-somethings (in whatever trade or profession), and they will normally split into 2 distinct camps.  Those that have been doing the same thing for 30 years and earning roughly the same money, and those that have advanced significantly because they've captured the 'business' of what they're doing.  This second group is normally doing very well, because their income is based on a share of the profit.

Then look at the 50-somethings in your area of expertise and do the same analysis, and that will light the path.

Good luck!


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## ROE (7 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Really, I'll have to move to wherever you live.
> 
> 
> Is that right, Eager:   I live in such a location (pop 55,000, coastal fast growing city within reasonable distance to capital city.
> ...




you probably right some where between 3K - 5K mark ...
I don't tally up my bills or budget I just as pay as it comes.

so I just remember a figure I last paid and extrapolate from that


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## Tyler Durden (7 May 2012)

Dowdy said:


> How much do you need to live?
> 
> Simple - Live with your parents as long as possible.
> 
> ...




But there comes an age where that becomes socially unacceptable


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## ROE (7 May 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> I wouldn't take the implication that in order to get ahead financially, you have to go 'one out' and be an entrepreneur, and almost forge/invent a new path.  That's fraught with the significant risk of financial ruin (it's a significant % of businesses that fail in the first 5 years).




Agree, you can do very well out of life by just being good at what you do and apply for higher paying job.

Specialist technical skills you can get 150K-200K easy, and not hard to go higher from my experience anyway...you can be in your late 20's and early thirty and pull in this figure

Infact you don't need to be extremely good, you just need to be good, get the work done, work hard, do jobs and put in hours other aren't willing to do.

It may not pay off immediately but by doing that people work around you know what sort of a person you are, you laying seed for future work and higher paying jobs.

I get called from people I left at the old job sometimes because someone cant figuring out something...I just help them out, it cost me nothing apart from some spare time but those guys will remember me forever.

All the jobs I got in the last 10 years I don't need to apply, I get called from the people I work with in previous jobs and ask if I want this job such and such..
the only thing left is how much I can negotiate.... 

Negotiation skills is extremely important in life, you should be good at it ...you get much more for less with good negotiation skills .... 

I get massive discount from buying cars to furniture to massive salary increase....I can tell if someone has negotiation training by dealing with them.

I once agree on an extremely good deal on a price of a car then I pull the last minute stunt and I got an extra 1K off because he thought he's losing a sale  little did he know it just a last minute stunt and if I don't get it I still bought at the agree price...


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## Vixs (8 May 2012)

*Re: Average/necessary salary vs. living expenses.*



ROE said:


> You doing well if you can do all this at 100K gross a year plus left over for investing..
> here are some of the number
> 
> 100K gross leave you around 65K after tax and super
> ...




Hi ROE, thanks for your input.

We have decided on a limit of $350,000 for a home in 5 years time. Our goal, which we are on track for, is a deposit of ~$150,000 and $60k in the bank for my wife to take time off work when she has kids. That leaves a mortgage of about $200k. Based on 10% interest rate and a 30 year loan, that's $1755/month.

My 100k gross assumes at minimum an increase in line with CPI per year. I agree it's a relatively meager living but the reality is we have a combined income of 100k a year now at 21 and 22. Both of us are very employable and this is growing. It was more an exercise in 'how little could we earn and survive?'. Any investment income would be additional.

I tend to get a bit of verbal diarrhea when I talk about future plans .


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## Vixs (8 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Really, I'll have to move to wherever you live.
> 
> 
> Is that right, Eager:   I live in such a location (pop 55,000, coastal fast growing city within reasonable distance to capital city.
> ...




Jesus Julia, that's bloody extortion!

My electricity bill for me + wife running 2 PC's 24/7, a fridge & bar fridge and using a clothes dryer often, as well as both being a sucker for long showers is about $1600/year, without solar. Rates and water on the gold coast is about $3000 a year. Not sure about Brisbane, where I now live, as I've never seen a rates notice up here and haven't gone digging for the info.

I've read a lot of your posts on here over the last year or so and I figure you're a smart enough lady to know how to find a better deal, so if that's the best on offer where you live, that's just nasty...


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## Bill M (8 May 2012)

My expenses just an hour out of Sydney are:

Rates: $1900
Water Usage: $300
Gas and Electric p/q $300 or $1,200 p/y ( I get 10% off on an AGL combined deal)

Total $3,400 p/y for that lot.


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## Knobby22 (8 May 2012)

Vixs said:


> Jesus Julia, that's bloody extortion!
> 
> My electricity bill for me + wife running 2 PC's 24/7, a fridge & bar fridge and using a clothes dryer often, as well as both being a sucker for long showers is about $1600/year, without solar. Rates and water on the gold coast is about $3000 a year. Not sure about Brisbane, where I now live, as I've never seen a rates notice up here and haven't gone digging for the info.
> 
> I've read a lot of your posts on here over the last year or so and I figure you're a smart enough lady to know how to find a better deal, so if that's the best on offer where you live, that's just nasty...




I'm shocked. Have a family of 4 and I'm the same! Rates $1500 a year.
Electricity and water $1400 a year but we use a clothesline. No dryer, don't water garden, no solar etc. One fridge.
We have gas though - is that the reason for the big difference, Julia?


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## Julia (8 May 2012)

Vixs said:


> Jesus Julia, that's bloody extortion!
> 
> My electricity bill for me + wife running 2 PC's 24/7, a fridge & bar fridge and using a clothes dryer often, as well as both being a sucker for long showers is about $1600/year, without solar. Rates and water on the gold coast is about $3000 a year. Not sure about Brisbane, where I now live, as I've never seen a rates notice up here and haven't gone digging for the info.
> 
> I've read a lot of your posts on here over the last year or so and I figure you're a smart enough lady to know how to find a better deal, so if that's the best on offer where you live, that's just nasty...






Knobby22 said:


> I'm shocked. Have a family of 4 and I'm the same! Rates $1500 a year.
> Electricity and water $1400 a year but we use a clothesline. No dryer, don't water garden, no solar etc. One fridge.
> We have gas though - is that the reason for the big difference, Julia?



 Agree that the rates are extortion.  A cousin living in one of Sydney's nicest areas on a large block with a $2M home pays far less, with access to all that Sydney has to offer.

To be fair about the electricity, I'm running a pool which is what takes up most of it, including both solar and heat pump to heat the pool in winter.

I do water the garden (though I have three 5000 litre water tanks also) and lawns if necessary.  

Re finding a better deal, there's no choice.  Council sets the rates, I'm not eligible for any discount, and ditto water.


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## Smurf1976 (8 May 2012)

Vixs said:


> I've read a lot of your posts on here over the last year or so and I figure you're a smart enough lady to know how to find a better deal, so if that's the best on offer where you live, that's just nasty...



I know your comment was intended for someone else, but if you're outside the major cities there is no such thing as "choice" for many people.

Electricity - it's either Aurora Energy, build my own power station, or sit in the dark. No choice there.

Rates - either I pay the council the $1400 a year that they ask for or I'll end up in court.

Water - again either I pay or I'll be in trouble. Even disconnection isn't an option - they still have a legal right to charge for the service being available whether I use it or not.

Car rego and third party insurance - again either I pay the government for this, don't have a car, or wait for the fine to arrive and take the risk of not having third party insurance. No choice there.

Even where there is "competition" there isn't much to be gained in many cases. What is the real price difference between Coles and Woolworths? Or Shell and Caltex? In some industries there are significant differences, for example insurance, but for many common purchases there's little or no difference even where there is a choice.


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## Smurf1976 (8 May 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm shocked. Have a family of 4 and I'm the same! Rates $1500 a year.
> Electricity and water $1400 a year but we use a clothesline. No dryer, don't water garden, no solar etc. One fridge.
> We have gas though - is that the reason for the big difference, Julia?



Rates - I pay about the same here in Tasmania.

Power - I'd say that anything under $2000 a year is pretty low these days but it will depend hugely on where you live and whether or not you also use gas, oil, wood or solar. There's really no such thing as a "normal" bill or a "normal" consumer these days - it's not like 25 years ago when there was far less variation between individual houses since most had pretty much the same appliances and usage.


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## Julia (8 May 2012)

Exactly, Smurf.  Only one energy supplier here.  They can charge what they like.
Every bill shows an increase in the kw hour charge.  Nothing we can do about it.


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## Vixs (8 May 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I know your comment was intended for someone else, but if you're outside the major cities there is no such thing as "choice" for many people.
> 
> Electricity - it's either Aurora Energy, build my own power station, or sit in the dark. No choice there.
> 
> ...




Fair point. There is obviously some inefficency in the economies of scale for providing water and rubbish disposal to an area of 55000 people. Must be a nice part of our beautiful country if noone's kicked down the council's door and asked to see the budget though .

Back on topic: Addressing the issue of 'I've found what I like but it doesn't pay well.' - Is there something you particularly excel at in your field? Is there something you would like to change? An inefficiency that drives you nuts? A product that would make the job easier not just for you but for everyone that does it? They're all opportunities to make a little more cash while still being part of the industry you love.

You're on an investment forum, so you are aware that there are many ways to supplement your wage. Keep that door open, supplemental income doesn't end with dividends, interest and rent.


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## Eager (9 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Is that right, Eager:   I live in such a location (pop 55,000, coastal fast growing city within reasonable distance to capital city.
> Rates:   $2300 p.a.
> Electricity & water:  $5000 p.a.
> 
> So maybe don't be so sure of your suggestions to others when you are not factually aware.



Oops, I obviously wasn't thinking of coastal towns, which come with the associated premium on property prices.

Consider a place like Ballarat, population 100,000, rich in history and arts/culture and just a 70 minute train ride to Melbourne. You can still buy a 700m2 block of land close-in for not much more than $100k. That is where the real difference is - land prices.

The savings can be put towards the cost of commuting if necessary, or put towards an energy efficient and mostly self-sustaining home.

(No, I don't live in Ballarat).


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## waza1960 (9 May 2012)

Well this is a contest I wish I wasn't winning annual power bill $4,800/yr.Has been $3,500 to $4,000/yr for the last 8 yrs and I have solar hot water
  BTW I am with the cheapest energy provider in my area which is DODO.


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## CanOz (9 May 2012)

waza1960 said:


> Well this is a contest I wish I wasn't winning annual power bill $4,800/yr.Has been $3,500 to $4,000/yr for the last 8 yrs and I have solar hot water
> BTW I am with the cheapest energy provider in my area which is DODO.




Good grief waza, what the heck you doing with all the power?:kiffer::dance:LOL!

_CanOz_


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## McLovin (9 May 2012)

CanOz said:


> Good grief waza, what the heck you doing with all the power?:kiffer::dance:LOL!
> 
> _CanOz_





I'll take a guess...


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## waza1960 (9 May 2012)

> Good grief waza, what the heck you doing with all the power?LOL!
> 
> CanOz



 Well I'm on tank water so have to pump household water ( no water rates though),pool,8 computers,big house,older fully ducted AC 3 phase ( not very efficient by current standards).
  Probably use the clothes drier too much...........


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## waza1960 (9 May 2012)

> I'll take a guess...




LOL I wish . Then trading would be fun just use it to launder money


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## CanOz (9 May 2012)

waza1960 said:


> LOL I wish . Then trading would be fun just use it to launder money




LOL@ McLovin...you dug that up quickly McDrug Baron....!:nono:

Quit wasting your time with FX Waza!, Put that power to some good use!

CanOz


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## Smurf1976 (9 May 2012)

McLovin said:


> I'll take a guess...



Either that or there's a potline (aluminium smelter) sitting in the backyard.

Or maybe the whole house is heated to sauna-like temperatures all winter?

Throws a "welding party" every weekend and gets mates to bring their welders around and plug them in?

Seriously, that bill sounds too high to me and I'm sure it could be cut by at least $1000 without too much hassle.


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## waza1960 (9 May 2012)

> Seriously, that bill sounds too high to me and I'm sure it could be cut by at least $1000 without too much hassle.




  I know what your saying but I have been unable to make a significant reduction over the years despite my best efforts.1K saving would be difficult I reckon


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## numbercruncher (9 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Exactly, Smurf.  Only one energy supplier here.  They can charge what they like.
> Every bill shows an increase in the kw hour charge.  Nothing we can do about it.




Decreasing your dependance on these thieves is a great start ..... Solar , more efficent appliances etc etc ...

Our ancestors lived comfortably for thousands of years without flick of the switch electricity , im sure we can live very comfortably with all our new technologies and rebirthing some old ones ....


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## Julia (10 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Decreasing your dependance on these thieves is a great start ..... Solar , more efficent appliances etc etc ...
> 
> Our ancestors lived comfortably for thousands of years without flick of the switch electricity , im sure we can live very comfortably with all our new technologies and rebirthing some old ones ....



I have no wish to live in the sort of misery endured by my ancestors, thanks.
Already have 150% of the pool's surface area in solar tubing on the roof.

And I have no interest in having wet clothes strung across a verandah eg rather than run the dryer for half an hour.

Why make the assumption that the appliances are not already energy efficient?


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## CanOz (10 May 2012)

Julia said:


> And I have no interest in having wet clothes strung across a verandah eg rather than run the dryer for half an hour.




We don't have kids yet, but its amazing how you don't miss the dryer when you don't have one. In China its very difficult to even buy a dryer, there is no demand for them. We just use a frame that we set up and take down. Works ok, but there is only two of us. I also miss the dryer for blowing off the cat hair!

CanOz


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## McLovin (10 May 2012)

Julia said:


> And I have no interest in having wet clothes strung across a verandah eg rather than run the dryer for half an hour.




Really? I actually hate clothes out of the dryer, they just feel strange. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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## Julia (10 May 2012)

CanOz said:


> We don't have kids yet, but its amazing how you don't miss the dryer when you don't have one. In China its very difficult to even buy a dryer, there is no demand for them. We just use a frame that we set up and take down. Works ok, but there is only two of us. I also miss the dryer for blowing off the cat hair!
> 
> CanOz



You may not miss one if you don't have it.  I do.
And I feel no compulsion to make my life more difficult by doing without it.



McLovin said:


> Really? I actually hate clothes out of the dryer, they just feel strange.



Perhaps you're using the dryer on the wrong setting or drying too many articles from wet.  Mostly I'm able to get things dry in the sun, but if I can't, it all feels exactly the same out of the dryer as just off the sun warmed line.


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## numbercruncher (10 May 2012)

Julia said:


> I have no wish to live in the sort of misery endured by my ancestors, thanks.
> Already have 150% of the pool's surface area in solar tubing on the roof.
> 
> And I have no interest in having wet clothes strung across a verandah eg rather than run the dryer for half an hour.
> ...




Is that not a fair assumption considering the enormous elec/water bill you told us you get ?

5 people in my household and we use energy as we need it and it isnt even half of your bill ....

Doesnt seem to bother you though - perhaps when costs double in the coming years youll find ways to reduce your usage ?

All good though - I like the user pays system .....


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## Julia (10 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Is that not a fair assumption considering the enormous elec/water bill you told us you get ?
> 
> 5 people in my household and we use energy as we need it and it isnt even half of your bill ....
> 
> Doesnt seem to bother you though - perhaps when costs double in the coming years youll find ways to reduce your usage ?.



Why should you tell me that I should find ways to reduce my usage?

Why not assume that I have prioritised what's important to me and one of those priorities is being able to swim all year round?

Perhaps I'd rather pay that $1600 winter power bill which gives me 90 odd days of swimming, than have a single week's holiday somewhere.

In other words, numbercruncher, I don't tell you or anyone else how to manage your finances so kindly mind your own business in terms of how I manage mine.


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## numbercruncher (10 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Why should you tell me that I should find ways to reduce my usage?
> 
> Why not assume that I have prioritised what's important to me and one of those priorities is being able to swim all year round?
> 
> ...




Hello Julia -

Only reason I commented was because it sounded like you were whinging about the cost of your utility bills - labelling them extortion or similar.

Believe me i couldnt care less if you snorted hundred dollar bills up your nose or threw them from rooftops - if you dont want people to comment on your energy use why bother posting it on a forum ?

I dont begrudge peoples consumption , keeps the economy ticking over and my income stocks say thanks too ...

Have a nice evening ....


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## CanOz (10 May 2012)

Julia said:


> In other words, numbercruncher, I don't tell you or anyone else how to manage your finances so kindly mind your own business in terms of how I manage mine.




:twak:

LOL!


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## Julia (11 May 2012)

> Only reason I commented was because it sounded like you were whinging about the cost of your utility bills - labelling them extortion or similar.



Below is what I said.  I suggested the rates here are unreasonably high.  I was not, however, whingeing about the cost of the electricity, much as it does irritate me to know that I'm subsidising inefficient 'green schemes' invoked by the government just to accommodate the Greens' demands, and will soon be paying for a carbon tax which makes no sense.



> Believe me i couldnt care less if you snorted hundred dollar bills up your nose or threw them from rooftops



Then I suggest you don't comment.



> - if you dont want people to comment on your energy use why bother posting it on a forum ?



Simply because I was contradicting Eager's suggestion that cost of living is cheaper in regional areas.  Quite obviously it's not.




Julia said:


> Agree that the rates are extortion.  A cousin living in one of Sydney's nicest areas on a large block with a $2M home pays far less, with access to all that Sydney has to offer.
> 
> To be fair about the electricity, I'm running a pool which is what takes up most of it, including both solar and heat pump to heat the pool in winter.
> 
> ...


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## Ves (11 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Simply because I was contradicting Eager's suggestion that cost of living is cheaper in regional areas.  Quite obviously it's not.



 You probably should be comparing apples to apples; not everyone wants to have full year access to a heated pool. How much would it cost to do such a thing in the city?


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## Smurf1976 (11 May 2012)

Suffice to say that it says an awful lot about the situation we're in that practically any discussion of living expenses in Australia these days quickly turns to the subject of electricity. Hardly anyone would have even mentioned it a few years ago.

Anyway, I'll "bite" and here are my household energy expenses. It's a very "normal" 3 bedroom suburban house but I live by myself (well, unless you count other occupants of the cat, fish and mouse variety but they don't use much power).

Space heating (main part of house) = $800 for electricity and about $250 for wood. I use the wood on weekends only, and the electric heat of an evening Monday - Friday.

Heating downstairs garage / workshop = $175 for pellets and $40 for oil. I mainly use the pellet heater, but it's not powerful enough by itself in the middle of winter so the oil burner gets the occasional run. This area is only heated for around 100 hours a year. 

Hot water = $180 (electric heat pump). Some of my work clothes get oily and need washing in hot water, and I also like long showers (usually about 15 minutes)

LPG (cooktop and BBQ) = $40 (no supply charge since I own the bottles)

Dishwasher = $9 (only used twice a week and it's connected to off-peak)

Dryer = $45 (also on off-peak and I never use the line)

General household electricity (lights, fridge, appliances etc) = $502 (includes the heater in the bathroom)

Electricity supply charge = $468

Solar generation = -$800 

TOTAL = $1709 (after the $800 generated from solar).

Edit: Forgot to mention a few litres of petrol for the mower. Maybe $10 or so for that each year as it doesn't use much.


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## Julia (11 May 2012)

Ves said:


> You probably should be comparing apples to apples; not everyone wants to have full year access to a heated pool. How much would it cost to do such a thing in the city?



Oh God, why did I ever open my mouth!  
Where did I suggest everyone wants access to a heated pool???
Why do you assume it would be more expensive in a city?
Probably less, given that there is some competition for energy supply in a city.

I simply explained that my high electricity cost was largely accounted for by the fact that I am (like thousands of other people) running a pool, and further that in winter I am heating said pool.  OK?  Is that all right?   

I didn't whine about what it cost.  
I didn't suggest anyone else would be doing likewise.
I don't give a **** how other people spend their money and do not expect such other people to tell me how to spend mine and that I should be cutting down on electricity.

I just explained that running a pool is expensive in an apparently vain attempt to make clear that electricity in the regions is not necessarily more or less expensive than in a capital city.

*This comment was in response to Eager's assertion that living in a regional centre is cheaper than living in a city.  I had no other reason for raising my own costs*


I don't know where it's more expensive.
  I do not care where it is more expensive. 
 OK?

Perhaps we could have a discussion about who spends too much on holidays/cars/petrol/designer clothes/restaurants/gambling/alcohol etc etc?

Then we can all rip into one another about who spends what and whether they can actually justify it.

F*S!   If I couldn't afford it I wouldn't be doing it.  And I'm damned if I need to justify it to you or anyone else.


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## craft (11 May 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Suffice to say that it says an awful lot about the situation we're in that practically any discussion of living expenses in Australia these days quickly turns to the subject of electricity. Hardly anyone would have even mentioned it a few years ago.




Ahhhh.. Electricity:

I live with three females. The hydro bill is emailed and directed to spam. The payment is direct debited without me seeing it. Family Harmony.

Still can’t work out though, how I get a cold shower with a 315lt hot water tank?


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## Smurf1976 (11 May 2012)

craft said:


> I live with three females. The hydro bill is emailed and directed to spam. The payment is direct debited without me seeing it. Family Harmony.



Look on the positive side. They've put a nice pretty blonde woman on the front of Warm magazine this year and your huge power bills have helped pay for that. She's on pages 3, 8, 10 and 11 as well as the front.


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## Smurf1976 (11 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Perhaps we could have a discussion about who spends too much on holidays/cars/petrol/designer clothes/restaurants/gambling/alcohol etc etc?



Agreed. It's your business what you spend your money on and nobody else's.

That said, for non-financial reasons I wouldn't encourage anyone to spend too much on alcohol. A friend of mine has suffered some consequences recently, and it's not nice. Go easy on the bottle...


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## johenmo (12 May 2012)

to the original question... Boofis - it depends on what life(style) you want. You want to keep costs down?  Don't have kids. Don't go on holidays. Be frugal on spending and invest wisely/well.  For many people, expenditure always matches income.  I remember reading here some time ago on a similar thread someone mentioning a relative couple with no kids who earned 200K+ yet had no savings, no house etc etc. Yet I know a couple who would prob earn 50- 60K between them with grown up kids & they are paying off a house etc.  There's an element of truth in "it's not what you earn, it's what you don't spend".  

City vs country - lived in both.  depends on where you live.  I'm in regional Vic atm - taking everything into account our experience is regional is cheaper (have lived in regional in 3 states), but we spend a fair chunk on heating in winter (coz it's %^&% cold).  Our gas/electricity would be about 1400/1200 p.a. & the gas heating is on 24/7 for about 5 months.  Don't drive as far as in the city.   So if one's regional paradise is more expensive there is usually a reason - popular location, inept council expenditure, etc.  Rates comparison is meaningless - depends on your house value.  Our $2M house in the country will likely be more than the cheapest city house (and no, it's really $2M...).  

As for heated pools... I'd have one in an instant if the yard could take it.  But it'd need gutting and/or daily leaf removal.  Too much work.


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## Julia (12 May 2012)

johenmo said:


> So if one's regional paradise is more expensive there is usually a reason - popular location, inept council expenditure, etc.



And that's the one which affects us here.  There has just been a whole new Council elected but I won't be holding my breath in expectation of any reduction in rates.



> Rates comparison is meaningless - depends on your house value.  Our $2M house in the country will likely be more than the cheapest city house (and no, it's really $2M...).



This must vary by State.  Here it's on the unimproved value of the land with a minimum that's unreasonably high for e.g. people in units.




> As for heated pools... I'd have one in an instant if the yard could take it.  But it'd need gutting and/or daily leaf removal.  Too much work.



Not sure what you mean by 'gutting'?  Gutting the yard?
You can have pools built to any size and shape these days.  If I were doing it again I'd have a 2.5 metre wide lap pool rather than a larger area where you're keeping clean and heating about 25,000 litres that you don't actually use if just swimming up and down in a straight line.

Re leaves - modern automatic pool cleaners deal magnificently with cleaning everything on the pool floor, but I've not found anything so far that eliminates that hand scooping of surface leaves.  There's a fortune to be made for someone who can devise such  a mechanical item.


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## johenmo (12 May 2012)

Julia said:


> And that's the one which affects us here.  There has just been a whole new Council elected but I won't be holding my breath in expectation of any reduction in rates.



 Wish you luck! 




Julia said:


> This must vary by State.  Here it's on the unimproved value of the land with a minimum that's unreasonably high for e.g. people in units.



 Ours takes into account the value of the improvemnt as well. It's 0.00406 x $"capital inmproved value".  SO a 500K house would be $2030 pa + rubbish bins.  We had a vacant block of land in another state years ago and the same applied (with a minimum, from memory).  Saw similar when we lived overseas but they had one rate for the land value and one rate for the house. Anyway, the country generally has lower land values which pulls down the total value, so your adn pour expereince shows it really is hard to compare rates.




Julia said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'gutting'?  Gutting the yard?
> You can have pools built to any size and shape these days.  If I were doing it again I'd have a 2.5 metre wide lap pool rather than a larger area where you're keeping clean and heating about 25,000 litres that you don't actually use if just swimming up and down in a straight line.
> 
> Re leaves - modern automatic pool cleaners deal magnificently with cleaning everything on the pool floor, but I've not found anything so far that eliminates that hand scooping of surface leaves.  There's a fortune to be made for someone who can devise such  a mechanical item.



 Our back yard is full of shrubs and trees so it feels quite secluded despite being in the 'burbs. To fit a lap pool (our preference) would mean ripping most of it out because it would look strange right in the middle of what we pretend is lawn and extending into a garden bed itself.  And it needs to be enclosed to use it all year.  Reminds me of a cartoon of 2 guys standing around a "pool" which was about 1m x 1m and one guy says "it doesn't look much but it's 30 metres deep!".


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## Julia (12 May 2012)

johenmo said:


> Reminds me of a cartoon of 2 guys standing around a "pool" which was about 1m x 1m and one guy says "it doesn't look much but it's 30 metres deep!".


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## Value Hunter (14 March 2017)

To the O.P. the best way to get ahead in your situation is both you and your wife live either separately with your parents (you with your parents and her with her parents) or together at your parents or her parents house. Don't take any vacations for 5 years and only eat at restaurants 4 times per year, don't buy clothes/shoes you do not need, try to avoid owning a car if possible, etc. 

Both work 2 jobs (one full time job and one part-time job) for 5 years while doing all of the above. It needs sacrifice but if your parents will help you out and you can do all of the above for 5 years you will give yourself a good foundation, then you can move out buy a house and have kids.

And to answer your question if you and your wife each earn $75,000 a year before tax I think you could save a decent amount living a frugal lifestyle. $75,000 (per person) if you work one full time unskilled/entry level job and one part time entry level job is achievable. If you work a skilled job + an unskilled job there is no reason you can't each earn $100,000 per year after two years of work which is more than enough.


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## RowanW (23 May 2017)

I'm glad to see you seriously considering your future with a mind of how you want your life to go. Not a lot of young people will put that much effort into managing their finance accounts and decisions. That said, of course people want to earn more money if possible but at the end of the day I'd say that you can earn however much you want as long as you are happy with how you are living to be honest. It's a matter of knowing how to manage the money you earn. Follow your heart and do something for the passion of doing it instead.


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