# Afghanistan



## Sean K (10 October 2008)

Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure. 

Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.

We will be stuck there for possibly 10 years plus.

I doubt the battle against the Taliban can be won due to the terrain and their method of fighting. And, coming into a great depression where the poor muslims of the world are going to get poorer, it will be a fertile breeding ground for youths to be radicalised and turn to fight the evil Christains.

And, it's going to get more bloody. I heard somewhere that we were embedding a number of soldiers into the Afghan Army units to provide them support. These guys are fighting on the 'front line' in much more dangerous territory. 

I'm not sure if Australia is prepared...

Not sure what there is to discuss on this topic. Just putting it out there as a general comment, or if anyone else thinks this is winnable, or worthwhile venture, or is there another way we can win this war?

Is diplomacy possible?


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## Aussiejeff (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure.
> 
> Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.
> 
> ...





Agree pretty much with everything you have said, Kennas. Muslim hardliners world-wide are going to regard the unfolding collapse of the current Capitalist World Finance System as proof positive that THEIR philosophy is the right one.

Talk about a turbulent decade ahead.....


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## IFocus (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure.
> 
> Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.
> 
> ...




Your comments are interesting Kennas, I think until the tribal areas in North Pakistan have a political solution / the tribes are used to get rid of foreign fighters / moderate Taliban brought into a political talks its going to be nasty and un-win-able. 

The solution is politics


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## robert toms (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Didn't John Howard say something like...we will decide who enters our country and by what means,when referring to boat people.
In Iraq and Afghanistan it has been we will decide whose country we enter and concoct any reason to justify ourselves.
Two lots of extremists....Taliban and Western forces.
Who will give in first.
No problem solvers in sight...only extremists.


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## Sean K (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



robert toms said:


> No problem solvers in sight...only extremists.



Not sure Robert, I think Afghanistan is a just war. The general human values displayed by the Taliban when in power are probably a tad lower than the general values of the Western world. I believe that even if 9/11 didn't occurr the international community should have acted, as it should have in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur before so many sufferred.


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## Julia (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Just over the last week I've heard several commentators suggest that this war is simply unwinnable and the time has come to "negotiate with the Taliban".


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## Sean K (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



Julia said:


> Just over the last week I've heard several commentators suggest that this war is simply unwinnable and the time has come to "negotiate with the Taliban".



Yeah, they need to make some effort to speak to the not so extremist, if they exist. A 'moderate' Taliban?? And then they influence the real extremists....hmmmm

Maybe we just need to find them all a job.....


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## IFocus (10 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Yeah, they need to make some effort to speak to the not so extremist, if they exist. A 'moderate' Taliban?? And then they influence the real extremists....hmmmm
> 
> Maybe we just need to find them all a job.....




The northern tribal area in Pakistan is one of the keys. Unfortunately Pakistan has killed a number of tribal chiefs and the US is hell bent on killing more along with the general population.

So the whole area is in chaos with no firm leadership so there is effectively no one to create a solution with similar as to what the US did with the Sunnis in Iraq.

The Elephant in the room is Russia.

They have a number of scores to settle remember stinger missiles, plus if they can tie up Nato and US forces in Afghanistan more so then it gives them an opportunity to work on securing its natural borders watch out Ukraine etc Germany has already signaled it wont interfere.

So Russia ups the anti and start to seriously supplying weapons etc, they will want to take up from where the Pakistani ISI left off. 

Unfortunately it means more casualties 

I have to agree with Robert but didn't the Bali Bombers training come out of Afghanistan?


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## robert toms (12 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Where were all of invaders trained that have been interfering and killing in Afghanistan for many years?Russia,Britain, US,Nato,Australia?Which countries have been manipulating them for many years ...viewing their lives as expendable ?
Australia's hands are not clean.
Their lives are as important to them as are ours.
No problem solvers in sight....keep the rubbish going.
How dare there be any backlash against external manipulators and invaders !


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## Sean K (12 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



robert toms said:


> Where were all of invaders trained that have been interfering and killing in Afghanistan for many years?Russia,Britain, US,Nato,Australia?Which countries have been manipulating them for many years ...viewing their lives as expendable ?
> Australia's hands are not clean.
> Their lives are as important to them as are ours.
> No problem solvers in sight....keep the rubbish going.
> How dare there be any backlash against external manipulators and invaders !



Yes Robert, interferance for various reasons. Not sure if they are all for the same purpose however. The current intervention is under a much different pretext to the British and Russian invasions. I think the greater % of the current pop actually want us there. The rubbish will continue until the people committing crimes against humanity are brought to justice. If the IRC had a military arm they would be fighting this one.


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## robert toms (12 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

For every war we are bombarded with propaganda...so it is is with this one.
The invasion if Afghanistan started to try to destroy Bin Laden and his mob.This broadened and expanded to overthrowing the government...the Taliban.The current government was never voted in,and was placed in position because they,no doubt,made pledges to the US.
Sure as hell this has nothing to do with Australia...same as GB's invasion of Iraq.
This not a fight of good against evil...although that is what we are bombarded with.

More like one group of extremists versus another.


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## Sean K (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



robert toms said:


> This not a fight of good against evil.
> 
> More like one group of extremists versus another.



Overall, I can't see how you can say that we are an extremist society. Surprising actually. 

You really should have a read up on what the Taliban implimented in Afghanistan and compare it to the west to get a hold on what is 'extremist'. 

Maybe just have a look at how they treated women (as policy) for a start. Sharia law is not female friendly...


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## robert toms (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Overall, I can't see how you can say that we are an extremist society. Surprising actually.
> 
> You really should have a read up on what the Taliban implimented in Afghanistan and compare it to the west to get a hold on what is 'extremist'.
> 
> Maybe just have a look at how they treated women (as policy) for a start. Sharia law is not female friendly...




Our role is an association with an extremist perpetual war country...the US .No doubt we have a triple A rating as faithful-dog country with the US.
I see the US and Australia as countries with double standards to say the least.
Lets not just treat women badly...lets invade ,displace populations,kill etc.
Gender is not a barrier,not even relevant
No worries ,because a good public information campaign will help our moral superiority.
Who was it that said "The nauseating hypocrisy of western leaders and their captive media" 
So in order to assert our moral superiority we will indulge in the decimation of foreign populations?
Do you think that western countries will ever be intelligent enough to get off their moral  high-horses and indulge in some meaningful negotiation?

Why do  you think that some groups become extremist?
I noted with resignation that all of the four candidates in the US elections had to confirm their warlike qualifications.
Nothing much changes.


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## Sean K (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Someone else said, 'only the dead have seen the end of war'.

I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just. 

The Taliban is an Army at war with anything forward thinking and wants all to live as the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It's at war with the West.

Have a read of their history and moral code on wiki.


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## awg (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

i base my reply on history.

Afghanistan has been fought over for thousands of years.

but never bought under control, of the invaders

This is one Australia will have to walk away from sooner or later


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## prawn_86 (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just.
> 
> The Taliban is an Army at war with anything forward thinking and wants all to live as the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It's at war with the West.
> [/URL].




I have to say i disagree on this one Kennas.

Each country to their own and if the people there did not like it, then it is them who should have rose up and fought it. It is not up to another country to decide what is right/wrong/just/moral etc

EG - Why shouldnt Iran nuke all 'Westerners' as they dont agree with our 'hedonistic' lifestyle?

But thats just my opinion and i know you have a lot more experience in this area.


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## Julia (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



prawn_86 said:


> I have to say i disagree on this one Kennas.
> 
> Each country to their own and if the people there did not like it, then it is them who should have rose up and fought it. It is not up to another country to decide what is right/wrong/just/moral etc
> 
> ...



I'm with you on this, Prawn.   The Iran analogy is quite justified.
Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there?  Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.

It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.


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## chops_a_must (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Someone else said, 'only the dead have seen the end of war'.
> 
> I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just.
> 
> ...




I'm as pink as they come Kennas, and I have and had no problems with the Afghani invasion.

As early as 2000, I can remember mates and I bringing it up at local political meetings, being the hard core political 16 year old activists we were... 

I guess they attacked for completely different reasons than for what we wanted them to though...


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## chops_a_must (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



Julia said:


> I'm with you on this, Prawn.   The Iran analogy is quite justified.
> Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there?  Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.
> 
> It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.



Yeah, sad to think that ethnic cleansing barely drew a response from the western world, yet the unfortunate but in perspective insignificant loss of life in NY drew a full scale war.


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## kitehigh (13 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



Julia said:


> I'm with you on this, Prawn.   The Iran analogy is quite justified.
> Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there?  Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.
> 
> It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.




A bit of an over statement there Julia, I wouldn't say bombing Taliban strongholds equated to bombing the entire country.  The coalition actually uses targeted strikes against enemy targets not random carpet bombing.  Another misconception you will hear is reconstruction, this implies that you are rebuilding an area when in fact construction should be the word used as this is reality on the ground. 
 It is fact that Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda were operating in Afghanistan quite openly until the Northern Alliance with help from the US over threw the Taliban.
  One thing which I can't understand is why the Europeans aren't doing more to stabilize the country as they have more to lose here if things go pear shaped.  Canada and Australia are two big contributers to the actually fighting areas and have the least to gain except for some battle experience.
Its all a stalemate at the moment, neither side is in the position to push for a complete victory.    So the war will continue.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" was a quote by Plato.  Here is another good Plato quote "Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil."


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## Julia (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kitehigh said:


> A bit of an over statement there Julia, I wouldn't say bombing Taliban strongholds equated to bombing the entire country.



OK, I could have worded it more carefully.  But the following is what I was getting at, i.e. if bin Laden was hiding in some cave in the mountains, what was the purpose of bombing so many other areas, Taliban strongholds or not?



> Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> (Redirected from Civilian casualties of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan)
> Jump to: navigation, search
> The War in Afghanistan (2001–present) has caused the deaths of thousands of Afghan civilians directly from insurgent and foreign military action, as well as the deaths of possibly tens of thousands of Afghan civilians indirectly as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, crime and lawlessness resulting from the war. The war, launched by the United States as "Operation Enduring Freedom" in 2001, began with an initial air campaign that almost immediately prompted concerns over the number of Afghan civilians being killed.[1] With civilian deaths from airstrikes rising again in recent years[2], the number of Afghan civilians being killed by foreign military operations has led to mounting tension between the foreign countries and the government of Afghanistan. In May 2007, President Hamid Karzai summoned military commanders to warn them of the consequences of further deaths.[3] There are no official figures of civilian deaths caused by the invasion, so it is necessary to aggregate individual reports.


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## kitehigh (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

The death of innocent civilians is always saddening, but what it fails to say in the Wikipedia site is that thousands of civilians were already dying of all those things they mentioned prior to US and coalition involvement.

The Taliban had their chance to hand over Bin Ladin, but they refused and we saw what happened next.  Maybe things would be a lot different now if they had handed him over, who knows they may have eventually won the war against the Northern Alliance and controlled all of Afghanistan.


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## jman2007 (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Basically this country can't be governed 

Not in our sense of the word "governed" anyway. 

Their first and foremost allegiance is to their tribe, they don't understand the concept of a central authority. It's completely alien to them.

Trying to impose a Western political model is great in theory, but it will be like pushing s$$t uphill in this country.

The coalition need to sit down and talk to the Taliban.


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## Sean K (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



prawn_86 said:


> I have to say i disagree on this one Kennas.



Well, I still disagree due to the changing nature of the world through globalisation and a human value system that is universal and should be upheld.

One country can no longer just do as they like in this day and age due to the direct impact they have on those surrounding them, or even on the other side of the planet. 

There is also a human value system relevant to the modern world that in a globalised society needs to be upheld. The treatment of women has been mentioned as an easy example of new modern laws and rules that should be universal. 

While the only reason we have initially entered Afghanistan is on the back of 9/11, the world, including many Muslim countires support the assistance provided to the Afgham people to rid themselves of the Taliban rule which suppressed their society pushing them back into the dark ages. 

I put this intervention up there with Rwanda and the Sudan as a morally and politically justifiable cause.


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## mayk (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Kennas, why not then bomb KSA? They have the same rules (some might say extreme than taliban), double standards or hypocrisy, your pick. 

Until the day we have one world, one currency and one army (add world peace into the mix, while I am at it), I think it is best to leave the individual countries on their own fate. If people want change they have to rise up.


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## Sean K (14 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



mayk said:


> Kennas, why not then bomb KSA? They have the same rules (some might say extreme than taliban), double standards or hypocrisy, your pick.
> 
> Until the day we have one world, one currency and one army (add world peace into the mix, while I am at it), I think it is best to leave the individual countries on their own fate. If people want change they have to rise up.



KSA?

I agree to a large extent on the national sovereignty issues, and once thought that the Middle East and Africa solution might be to just put a big fence around them, throw in lots of guns, and let them shoot it out. Last man standing wins. 

I think we're all dreaming that solutions can be found by sitting around a table for some of these countries. Who said that 'war is an extention of politics by other means?' 

Hope I'm not sounding like a war monger here, I just have a poor opinion of the human animal to solve things through compromise. 

I actually think we will have one world one day. Maybe by the year 10,000 ish, or after we're invaded by aliens and the human species is under threat.


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## Sean K (31 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

While the US bashing rolls on in the Syria attack thread because people want to believe all that the good Syrian government propagada machine lay down, over the US, Islamic fundamentalists/extremists continue to use their last tactic to kill unarmed civilians, women and children. The same type of extremists the US were probably trying to kill in Syria.

The key difference in these battles is that the coalition/west try as best a possible to limit damage to civilian property and mitigate civilian casualties. 

For the Muslim extremists, the opposite applies. 

Some commentators are saying that the ISF are considering negotiations with the Taliban. This would be a major step in this conflict, but on what basis are the Taliban and al-Qaeda going to lay down their arms for a sustainable peace in the region? 


*Taliban attack kills five *
October 31, 2008 

A TALIBAN suicide attacker blew himself up inside the information and culture ministry building in the Afghan capital today, killing at least five people and wounding several more, police said.

The bomb exploded in a conference room underneath the office of the minister, Abdul Karim Khoram, but he was not in the building at the time, ministry spokesman Hameed Nasiri Wardak said.

"I can say that the target was the minister," he said.

Mr Khoram was badly wounded in a suicide blast in the southern city of Kandahar in May. 

The Islamic Taliban, who were in power in Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001, are waging an insurgency against the Western-backed government that has seen a record number of attacks this year, leaving hundreds dead. 

The attacker had first shot dead a guard at the entrance to the building and then ran into the conference room where he blew himself up, deputy Kabul police chief General Alishah Ahmadzai said.

"Three people were martyred immediately at the spot. Two others who were critically wounded died of their wounds in hospitals," he said.

The dead were four men and a woman, Gen Ahmadzai said.

The interior ministry said three were ministry employees.

"In total 23 wounded were taken to different hospitals in the city," health ministry spokesman Abdullah Fahim said, confirming two had died in hospital. 

The wounded included some children at a kindergarten on the compound for ministry employees, a witness said. 

A British-South African aid worker was shot dead in Kabul last week in a murder also claimed by the Taliban.

Also overnight, a remote-controlled bomb blew up a police vehicle in the southern province of Kandahar and killed four policemen, a police commander said.


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## mayk (31 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> KSA?




Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.


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## mayk (31 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



kennas said:


> Some commentators are saying that the ISF are considering negotiations with the Taliban. This would be a major step in this conflict, but on what basis are the Taliban and al-Qaeda going to lay down their arms for a sustainable peace in the region?




AQ and Taliban are different, this distinction is key, I guess the frequent ad nuseaum use of Taliban with AQ has enforced the image that they are the same. A better strategy will be to separate the Taliban from AQ and then use their help to eliminate AQ. Just like what was done in Iraq recently.


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## Glen48 (31 October 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

This war has been going on for thousands of years it is nothing different to the Christians fighting Islam when Richard the Lion Heart started fighting. These wars are unwinable due to religion and once religion stops there will be peace.
The Arabic countries brain wash their kids from the first day they watch TV with anti USA slogans and when you see USA putting up Palin as a choice you have to shake your head and think we are sunk.
The Islamic people have some thing like 5 trillion saved due to their belief of not charging interest which they do under a different disguise so they as cashed up and we are broke.
Now we have a recession, Global warming, no Oil, Islam's wanting to fight for ever, house prices going down, No super other than that things are rosy.


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## Calliope (18 December 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Mr Rudd has made a two hour visit to Afghanistan to raise the morale of the troops. He praised the troops for the job they are doing with a mention of building roads and schools.

His visit again raises the question of what the hell we are doing there. He rabbited on again about building a democracy and young girls being able to go to school. The truth is that the Taliban control about 75% of the country and are gaining all the time and democracy is a pipe dream.The military situation is deteriorating rapidly. The Taliban even collects taxes on the roads into Kabul which no doubt we helped build.

Obama is going to send more troops. This has always been America's answer in a losing situation. Will they never learn? The truth is that the West will never control the Taliban without controlling Pakistan. And this is not going to happen.


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## Sean K (23 December 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

I doubt 6000 Australians, but the bulk of a Brigade Group with the Kiwis and add ons assisting - Probably not Fijians due to the coup, but possibly Irish and Singaporean as we worked well together in Timor, and as a long shot, Japanese for the same reason. That would be interesting.


*Obama may want more Diggers for Taliban warfare *
 Mark Dodd | December 23, 2008 
Article from:  The Australian 

THE Rudd Government should brace for a request from the US to increase its troop commitment to Afghanistan, the head of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said yesterday.

But retired Major General Peter Abigail played down calls by former colleague Jim Molan for Australia to commit a 6000-strong force to the war-battered country. 

The Australian Defence Force had spare capacity to send 6000 troops to Afghanistan but would be unable to sustain the commitment, Major General Abigail said yesterday. 

Major General Molan, who recently retired from the ADF, served as a senior commander of coalition forces in Iraq. 

The 40-year army veteran is regarded as a specialist in counter-insurgency warfare. 

Last week, General Molan warned that the NATO-led coalition battling a resurgent Taliban insurgency was heading for defeat unless it drastically increased troop numbers. 

The quality and experience of Australian soldiers meant Kevin Rudd should expect to get a call soon from US president-elect Barack Obama asking for more Diggers, General Abigail said. Echoing the comments of a recent outgoing British Afghan commander, he raised the prospect of a negotiated settlement with moderate Taliban elements.


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## johenmo (24 December 2008)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Afghanistan will be close to being a Vietnam but pollies are more sensitive to public perception so that will .  Outsiders are in their country, and they are fanatical/deeply patriotic (depends on your view).  Our hearts aren't in it like theirs are, so the West can't (help them to) win.

Extremists/extreme patriots of any view are not rational or will continue resistance.  American war of independence shoudl tell the USA that.  And infidels, we are not wanted.  The ME remembers the crusades & some still have a grudge.  I have had great discussions on this with Islamic friends and workmates.

We impose western concepts of "countries" on what was originally tribal boundaries.  These aren't compatible, and never will be.  Palestine is a classic.  African states are another.

I don't agree with what happens under the Taliban but the UN/US will never win what is a war of attrition.  To think anything else is making yourself feel warm and fuzzy.

Understand the Quoran and you get a glimpse of Islam.  And no, I don't have an answer.


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## Sean K (7 February 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Things are still shaping this to be our biggest committment since East Timor, but a hell of a lot more serious.

My early thoughts that we'd end up comitting a Brigade group with coalition support may happen.

It'll probably be an ANZAC Brigade with key support from the US and GB for attack helos (or Dutch if they don't totally pull out), and left wing players like Japanese engineers, and a rifle platoon maybe from the Irish, Singos, or Ghurkas. 

The problem is, wars are hard to win here. 




*Diggers urged to double offensive in Afghanistan*
Patrick Walters, National security editor | February 07, 2009 

US military leaders want Australia to take the lead role in NATO-led coalition operations in Afghanistan's Oruzgan province following an expected drawdown by Dutch forces.

NATO's top commander in Afghanistan, General David McKiernan, has asked the Australian Defence Force if it could take over the province from the Dutch if The Netherlands proceeds with plans to phase out its effort from mid-2010. 

General McKiernan made his request to the Australians in December, but the Pentagon then stopped short of making a formal written approach to Canberra in advance of President Barack Obama assuming office 17 days ago. 

If the Rudd Government were to agree to General McKiernan's request, this would mean at least a doubling of Australia's current 800-strong military presence in the province. 

Running the province would mean the ADF would provide a brigade headquarters as well as a battle group of about 450 combat troops and some "enablers" such as aviation, artillery and logistical support.


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## Go Nuke (7 February 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

In my mind this isn't really about winning a war. Its about something more important to a government and its military......EXPERIENCE!

Nothing can substitute for an armed services better than real life experience. Not war games or training, but creating battle savy and hardened soldiers!

From commanders, right through to grunts.

Planning attacks, defence putting all this coordinated effort into action is what its all about imo


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## Calliope (18 February 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Obama has committed another 17,000 troops to Afghanistan "to stabilise a deteriorating situation".That's the easy bit. The tricky bit is trying to put these troops to some useful purpose and that hasn't been worked out yet. 

And that is not easy to decide when you have to work from the premise that the war is unwinnable by the only methods that the Americans know. That is bombs, rockets, tanks, artillery etc.

The Taliban get plenty of support from the population. If they don't they get murdered and because neither Karzai nor the Americans can guarantee their safety they have no choice. They also have to pay taxes to the Taliban. Most of their hard earned opium poppy money goes to the Taliban also.

Obama is caught between a rock and a hard place. Rudd may want to gain Obama"s approval, but he would be crazy to commit more troops.


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## Sean K (7 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

I wonder if we'll have to add Pakistan into the equation down the track. They look to be in quite a pickle at the moment and if the Taliban keep using the border region inside Pakistan to train and rearm who knows where the fight will go. Troubling. 

*War in need of more than tokens *
Patrick Walters | March 07, 2009 
Article from:  The Australian 

WHEN Kevin Rudd finally sits down in the Oval Office on March 24, Barack Obama will have a new road map for the Afghanistan war and a determined view on what the US expects from its close allies, including Australia.

The White House talks won't include a formal request from the US President for Australia to commit more troops to the fight in southern Afghanistan. The Prime Minister already understands with crystal clarity that Washington wants us to lift our game in Afghanistan together with the US's other close ally, Britain. 

While the Rudd Government continues to publicly hold the line on Australia's 1090-strong military commitment, the reality is that our troop numbers are set to rise. By late next year they could easily expand to about 1600 to 1700 depending on how the US-led troop surge unfolds over the next 18months. 

The Defence Department has been working the options for months following requests from top US military commanders for us to consider taking over the running of Oruzgan province from the Dutch late in 2010. 

They range from offering a brigade headquarters of about 120 personnel for a command role in Oruzgan, together with the provision of up to two infantry combat teams to assist with security for Afghanistan's national elections due in August. The army is also looking at sending more specialised trainers to assist the fledgling Afghan National Army. 

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon and his top military advisers are not considering a larger 2500 to 3000-strong brigade size force for Oruzgan; those numbers would be difficult for the army to sustain for a multi-year assignment. But a "brigade-minus" option with a lot of US "enablers" or supporting assets, including helicopters, fixed wing-aircraft, medical and artillery support, remains a possibility.


----------



## noirua (7 March 2009)

Hi kennas, America, with this recession, may not be losing quite so much by increasing troop numbers as they would otherwise be unemployed. Equipment for war should keep certain major industries ticking over, and keep certain workforces going. 

Australia's position is different but the basics are still the same. Coal mines, iron ore mines and oil developments,  benefit from production during wartime. 

After all, armies are meant for war, and economies often benefit in very many ways, advancement in ideas and inventions being two of them. 

All a bit sad really.


----------



## IFocus (7 March 2009)

Kennas the situation developing in Pakistan is really concerning.

The components coming together such as a fractured government / political process  and a military losing respect and apparently control is not good.

Imagine an Indian government thinking they can or need to take action against a destabilized Pakistan.

With nuclear weapons in the mix at what point do others feel they have to intervene...........ugly


----------



## Tysonboss1 (7 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



Go Nuke said:


> In my mind this isn't really about winning a war. Its about something more important to a government and its military......EXPERIENCE!




I agree in part, experance is good for the army in general. But it has the side effect of creating a massive turn over of soldiers.

We have already seen the SAS disband a squadron due to lack of numbers because of the massive rate of people leaving after there 2nd or third tour of duty, so there are only 2 x operational squadrons where in 2003 there was 3.

It takes alot for a man to leave his family for six months at a time, so when these guys have done a tour of IRAQ and 2 tours of afganistan within 4 years they often leave and take their experiances with them.

most of my mates have left after their 2nd or 3rd tour, some after their first, these are guys that probally would have stayed in for 20years had the work load not been so high.


----------



## sinner (7 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



Tysonboss1 said:


> probally would have stayed in for 20years had the work load not been so high.




You don't think it has anything to do with what they have seen and done being irreconcilable with what they have been told and tell themselves they are doing? I'd really appreciate if you would ask them about this.

What are our actual objectives for Afghanistan and were they for Iraq? What is the completion criteria for these mission objectives? Will they ever realistically be filled?

I know about the sense of duty to defend the country. No matter what he or she is doing a soldier is defending the country and acting on orders which means they don't need to think about their actions. 

But one has to be awful obedient and patriotic to really believe they are in these countries to defend their families. If anything their presence their has increased Australia's ranking on the hit-list? 

"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die" a quote by Tennyson often used by soldiers (with a "ours is not to make reply" stuck in front) and those who disagree with me 

How can we have this attitude about the people we send to die for us! How can this be part of their warrior code?

Would they really have stayed for more tours-of-duty if they had been reduced to 3 months at a time or something? Or doubled the amount of forces there?


----------



## Tysonboss1 (7 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



sinner said:


> You don't think it has anything to do with what they have seen and done being irreconcilable with what they have been told and tell themselves they are doing? I'd really appreciate if you would ask them about this.




Most of them didn't really mind going to afganistan the first and second time, But it does put a load of stress on their families back home. But you throw a third or fourth tour at them and they begin to object and possibly discharge.

The reason that there is a high turn over of troops that leave after service over seas is not because  off the "things they have seen and done" as you put it, It's more that after a few trips away they have probally already done over 6 years in the army and are pretty cashed up, paid of the mortgage and want to settle down and live a normal life, probally move back to their home town.

After all once you have done a few trips away you have probally done everything that you joined for in the first place, you have live all the adventures, and family becomes more important.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (7 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*



sinner said:


> I know about the sense of duty to defend the country. No matter what he or she is doing a soldier is defending the country and acting on orders which means they don't need to think about their actions.
> 
> But one has to be awful obedient and patriotic to really believe they are in these countries to defend their families. If anything their presence their has increased Australia's ranking on the hit-list?




Actually, the atitude of most of the SAS and other SF forces is not that they are "defending Australia and their families" in some romanticly patriotic story like from the tales of the anzac legend.

Generally they consider them selves to be professial soldiers who are employed to "Protect Australia and her *Interests*" wheather those interests be territorial, diplomatic, political etc etc it matters not to them.

Does a Chubb armor guard sit there analizing the pro's and con's of the capitalist system, the flaws of the banking system, does he question what part he is playing in this global finacel system.... I think not, he is given a mission to transport cash from Point A to Point B, All he will focus on is getting his mission done while keeping himself and his mates safe,... this is how a soldier operates, mission focused, one mission at a time, always trying to operate the best he can looking up for his mates.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (8 March 2009)

speaking of afganistan, It will probally start heating up as it does as they head into spring, the normal taliban spring offensive shall be kicking of soon. I wish our boys all the best, May their wits be keen, their eye's sharp and their shots straight.


----------



## sinner (8 March 2009)

Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.

It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (8 March 2009)

sinner said:


> Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.
> 
> It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.




Well I don't agree with the word Automatons, but as for what you say about being ready to bark and bite at command, well offcourse they do, would you expect that they have a deep and meaning discussion group about every command they are given, It's up to the people that sit behind desks to worry about that stuff,

The SAS soldiers job is to keep fit and missions ready, maintain their skills and when they are given a job no matter how small or large they will carry it out as if it were the most important thing in the world, it will be the only thing on their mind it has to be that way, I know it is hard for some one who hasn't experianced it to understand.


----------



## Sean K (8 March 2009)

sinner said:


> Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.
> 
> It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.



I don't think Tysonboss was really trying to convey that intent sinner. He's right about SAS (all soldiers really) being professionals and simply doing their duty, one they're trained for. No different to a doctor completing a medical degree and then being asked to perform an operation. Australian soldiers are probably the least 'automatons' in the world actually, and it's their initiative that sets them apart from many others.


----------



## sting (8 March 2009)

Democracy within the ranks.......

Who hasn't played the age old game...Paper scissors RANK

which I must say is better than playing the "Dance of the flaming ********" game.

But as for reason for wanting to go oversea's. Soldiers train and train and train ad nauseum the tour gives them the chance to justify and verify the tactics drummed into them. I agree with Tysonboss the extended tours away which places strain on family and relationships as well as the eroding benefits that we had to endureare the main reasons for getting out after 2 or 3 tours. I wonder how many people in the public sector would stay in their job when in the case of one of my troopies who had his ceiling in his accommadation block fall down on him while he was sleeping. I got out (FULLTIME)after 20yrs under the old Super Scheme so it was beneficial for me to stay that long and with greater opportunities on the outside it was time to be at home for annivesaries birthdays etc, well up until now that is I wonder if the retention rate will increase given the job uncertainty on the outside. 

It wasnt that long ago you could pull the pin and be offered a Job in the NT Police and/or 2 or 3 mining jobs. And if that wasn't enough the "Dash for Cash" runs back to Iraq as private security contract Pers. made it worthwhile.

When I first got out and joined the outside workforce I was lost with all the time on my hands so I rejoined as a GRES Officer.


UBIQUE


----------



## gav (8 March 2009)

*Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?*

Sting brings up a good point, the lack of incentive to stay is a very large part of the retention problem.  I was under the new Super Scheme, did 1 tour (not Afghanistan), was sick of the lifestyle so got out after doing just over 4yrs service.  Hardly ever got to home to see my family, as the majority of the time we were on leave we weren't allowed leave the Darwin region (DACC/cyclone duty).

2yrs later I'm earning more than I was in the Army, in a job I enjoy.  Can see my family whenver I want, do what I want when I want.  A lot of the guys that joined when I did are out now, and the majority of the ones who are still in want out.

Also, working under a hierarchy where the majority want out but stay in waiting for their 20yr benefits isn't the most pleasant experience either.  The difference between the Old Super Scheme and New scheme are a key factor.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the Army.  Got to experience things not many others get to, learnt a lot about myself and the world.  But the lack of incentives sees a lot of soldiers around my age/experience level leave.  Even the "critical trade" incentives (to which I was eligible for) are pretty pathetic.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (9 March 2009)

sting said:


> When I first got out and joined the outside workforce I was lost with all the time on my hands so I rejoined as a GRES Officer.
> 
> 
> UBIQUE




I am thinking about joining the gres shortly, I have been out for a bit over three years now and I do miss army life a bit. I wouldn't go full time again, But I would like to be able to go for a bash in a Mog and have a shoot every now and then, and get a bit of tax free pay for doing it.


----------



## Tysonboss1 (9 March 2009)

sting said:


> And if that wasn't enough the "Dash for Cash" runs back to Iraq as private security contract Pers. made it worthwhile.




Yeah security work in Iraq sounds great when your mates are making it out to be a cash banaza swan trip, full of beers and BBQs with the odd convoy run thrown in sending you photos like this,







then 3 days later he emails you this photo and says, "yeah it was a close one.we were pretty lucky, the Rocket the hit the windscreen didn't explode" and you think maybe I am better off in sydney.


----------



## Buddy (12 March 2009)

From the Australian.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25174267-601,00.html

Now, at least, the USA have no excuse not to eliminate, via severe death, this combatant.  What I dont understand is why the military simply didn't eliminate these combatants prior to capture rather than take them to Guantanamo. Simple solution - no combatants, no problem.


----------



## Sean K (23 March 2009)

Afghanistan has just started by the look.

Massive committment, or we fail in turning this region around.

I'm in 2 minds still.

Should we just let them go for it and live their own lives, growing future jihadists and herion, and hopefully, eventually, get it right and join the modern world.

Or, try to forcibly change things, as we are trying to.



Looks like were all going for option 2 right now, with a very long term committment.


*War 'will last well into next decade'*
Geoff Elliott and Patrica Karvelas | March 23, 2009 

AUSTRALIA should be prepared for a long engagement in Afghanistan of a decade or more, according to leading US military strategists.

Kevin Rudd will hold his first face-to-face meeting with US President Barack Obama at the White House this week just as Washington prepares to up the ante in Afghanistan, hoping allies commit more resources to the fight.


----------



## Sean K (5 April 2009)

Um, why are we supporting this?

I'm a little confused now.




*New Afghanistan Laws Regarding Women*

The U.N. Human Rights Commissioner, Navi Pillay says a new Afghan law restricting women's rights violates Afghanistan's constitution as well as universal standards. She urges the Afghan government to rescind the new law. 

U.N. Human Rights Chief, Navi Pillay, calls the new Afghan law a huge step in the wrong direction. She says the law is another clear indication that the human rights situation in Afghanistan is getting worse not better. 

Her spokesman, Rupert Colville, tells VOA, the new law is extremely damaging to women. He says it violates international laws such as the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. He says it also breeches Afghanistan's constitution, which calls for equal rights for men and women.

"It is really very reminiscent of the Taliban type decrees in the 1990's. It forbids women to leave their homes except for very exceptional purposes," Colville said. "It forbids them to work or receive education without their husband's express permission. It even permits marital rape, essentially women cannot refuse sexual relations unless they are sick." 

The new law which was passed by Afghanistan's Parliament last month, has not yet been published, but President Hamid Karzai, who faces a tough re-election campaign, has already approved it.

News reports say the law strips mothers of custody rights to their children in case of divorce. It makes it impossible for wives to inherit houses and land from their husbands, though husbands may inherit real estate from their wives.


----------



## disarray (5 April 2009)

wow i'm shocked. truly. 



> *Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other,* and because they support them from their means. *Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient,* and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, *(And last) beat them (lightly);* but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
> -- Qur'an 4:34


----------



## Calliope (13 April 2009)

Any chance of military or political resolution in Afghanistan is a forlorn hope in the absence of stability in Pakistan, and that seems less likely every day.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/warning...-of-collapse-within-months-20090412-a40u.html



> PAKISTAN could collapse within months, one of the more influential counter-insurgency voices in Washington says.
> 
> The warning comes as the US scrambles to redeploy its military forces and diplomats in an attempt to stem rising violence and anarchy in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sean K (1 May 2009)

Looks like an extra infantry company to secure the election, more sioldiers to be embedded into the Afghan Bde as part of the Omlette plan, and another troop of engineers and a few extra loggies. I reckon the election troops will probably stay as a permanent presence for extra security.

It's not what is really needed though, imo. The training is essential, but Afghanistan needs more professional soldiers in the front line fighting and defeating the Taliban. That should have meant at least a infantry battalion with relevent support including more LAVs, helicopters, and gunners. And, where are our ARH's? Did we buy them just to sit in a shed in Darwin getting rusty? How long does it take to fit them and have pilots converted?


----------



## pacestick (1 May 2009)

I have always believed that this was at least a multi decade commitment to actually win . More likely over 100 years . if you just look at the history of  invaders into afghanistan there is no easy victoty


----------



## shag (1 May 2009)

i get the feeling the people want to stop growing dope this time. u cant eat dope like corn, dope can feed yr family indirectly but its damn hard work too(scraping the opiates off of the poppies etc). they must see the heroin adicts. and its the people that count in the end. give them a sense of security, some infastructure(water first) and keep the talis in the hills and pakistan and it might not take a hundred yrs.
obamas asked for the nz sas again, but they prob have been there all the time anyway. all nz is good for nowadays is a few engineers and gun fodder.
when they go to war, they have to borrow gear off of the states etc.
the new light armoured/all terrain vehicles seem like overpriced metal. some european bit of tin.
they still have the poor old skyhawks in limbo costing money.
i bought a unimog off of them once, 25k nz. just run in. faultless. obviously in the 80's they bought a few hundred too many.
grt for burning the streets and riverbeds.


----------



## Calliope (27 August 2010)

Army bureaucrats sitting safely in their offices in Canberra come up with some crazy decisions, but this one takes the cake.

*Diggers face likely charges on child deaths*



> THE Director of Military Prosecutions wants to take the unprecedented step of charging several Defence Force commandos with the deaths of five children during a raid in Afghanistan last year.
> 
> While the Director of Military Prosecutions, Brigadier Lyn McDade, has not made her final decision, the prospect of charges has infuriated senior officers, with the Chief of Army, Lieutenant-General Ken Gillespie, and other commanders expressing concern in writing.
> 
> Some in the Defence hierarchy are concerned it will further erode public support for the war and undermine the way soldiers operate in Afghanistan.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/diggers-face-likely-charges-on-child-deaths-20100826-13u8h.html


----------



## overit (27 August 2010)

Norwegian journalist Paul Refsdal risked his life to become the first Westerner to film behind Taliban lines in Afghanistan, and see the war between the allied forces and the insurgency from the Taliban's viewpoint.

Now Dateline brings you his remarkable story, as Paul witnesses several ambushes of US troops on the Khyber Pass, and films celebrations over the death of a US soldier.


----------



## Calliope (1 November 2010)

Apparently our troops in Afghanistan are in the wrong place.



> *US authorities have shifted their focus to Yemen as the most active source of al-Qa'ida terrorism in the world.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/us-sees-yemen-as-terror-central/story-e6frg6n6-1225945870885


----------



## noirua (14 August 2021)

__





						Axel Felix's answer to Is the fall of Kabul imminent? - Quora
					





					qr.ae


----------



## noirua (15 August 2021)

Taliban enters Kabul as U.S. evacuation efforts continue
					

"We have a small batch of people leaving now as we speak, a majority of the staff are ready to leave," a U.S. official said Sunday.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



Members of the Taliban entered the outskirts of Afghanistan's capital Kabul Sunday to a negotiate for a "peaceful surrender" of the city, a spokesman for the group said Sunday.


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2021)

What a disaster. What an absolute failure of policy over nearly 20 years. What a waste of lives and money.

And what an absolute betrayal of the folks they are leaving behind to be executed etc.

Just wow.


----------



## rederob (16 August 2021)

At what cost?


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## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

The army must have done a deal with the Taliban. .
They didn't fight.
Obviously the puppet government set up by the allies (mainly OZ ands the USA was not as popular as we were led to think.

Trump signed the deal with the Taliban to leave precisely at this time and to be frank what do you think Biden could have done?
I think both Trump and Biden were right to pull out.
But it is a lesson, if the previous lesson on the abandonment of the Kurds to slaughter by the Turks wasn't enough.

Link to Trump deal below (because some will only believe Fox).








						Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war
					

President Trump says it is "time after all these years to bring our people back home".



					www.bbc.com


----------



## rederob (16 August 2021)

America's* war on terror* has been a continuation of its failed interventions where it rode roughshod over international conventions, created new laws that were outside its own legal system, and carried out state sanctioned torture.
But that's ok because America are the *good guys*.
What's not ok is *not *protecting our own citizens from blatant unlawfulness.
David Hicks' case is a classic example of how Australia's pandering to America is not healthy.
Across the ditch our cuz Jacinda takes a leaf out of David Lange's book and runs her race on *principles*.

We need to ditch the "all the way with LBJ" mentality and think carefully about cosying up with America next time they place that call.


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2021)

I've no idea, what should/could have been done. But no prizes for guessing what happens to those men and women who worked with the Americans.


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## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> I've no idea, what should/could have been done. But no prizes for guessing what happens to those men and women who worked with the Americans.



It will and is terrible.
I heard in one province the army surrendered without a shot and the Taliban summarily executed all of them. They are ruthless.
We just don't understand being so soft in our western ways.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

No one liked the warlords. They were a corrupt bunch of aholes. They couldn't (or wouldn't) organise a fightback. Now they will be strung up.

Aussies actually left plenty of translators in the lurch. Scomo had months to do something. They are scrambling now in a minimum token effort.

Shades of Vietnam and leaving allies to die. No one will trust US  and any coalition again. Too many failures now. Even in Syria, Russia stayed the distance and stabilised.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

The manner in which the US left was disgusting. And against what many in the military wanted. You are a POS Joe Biden for rubber stamping the way this was carried out. A real return to the past. 

Taiwan will be very nervous along with Japan, Philippines, India.

Scomo would be wise to stop licking US boot. We are a long way for the US to save us. And its a big if.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

I believe Australia was doing similar.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

China are already in Afghanistan.
Watch them do deals with the Taliban for mining rights.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> *No one liked the warlords. They were a corrupt bunch of aholes. They couldn't (or wouldn't) organise a fightback. Now they will be strung up.
> 
> Aussies actually left plenty of translators in the lurch. Scomo had months to do something. They are scrambling now in a minimum token effort.
> 
> Shades of Vietnam and leaving allies to die. No one will trust US  and any coalition again. Too many failures now. Even in Syria, Russia stayed the distance and stabilised.*



Absolute xxxxing tragedy.  Totally agree with the analysis.
Somehow "everyone" is clinging to the hope that the Taliban will play nice and not execute  thousands of people as they have said to date. I'd like to believe that to - but I wouldn't be betting my life on the possibility.

I think the women and in particular the educated women in Afghanistan are going to pay a terrible price for this. Under the Taliban the very fact they have achieved an education is going to be seen as traitorous.









						An Afghan woman in Kabul: ‘Now I have to burn everything I achieved’
					

A university student tells of seeing all around her the ‘fearful faces of women and ugly faces of men who hate women’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> China are already in Afghanistan.
> Watch them do deals with the Taliban for mining rights.



It's already been going on for years. About $400mill a year.
 They will be first in for bigger deals though.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2021)

And now we have another situation where the US arms the government and those arms are now in the hands of the enemy.

Hopefully they will find it hard to get ammunition for the weapons, but I'm sure Russia and China will fill any gap.

What to do now ?

The Iran situation shows that once despots are in power it's very tough to throw them out without causing civilians extreme hardship.

I guess one good thing is that the Taliban aren't hiding in tunnels any more, they are out in the open. If the US has the will, the Taliban are targets, but of course they will surround themselves with civilians to make collateral damage a deterrent.

The most powerful country in the world looks pretty impotent right now.


----------



## explod (16 August 2021)

Apologies if this has already been posted but it reveal's the overall truth in my view:





__





						Gmail
					

Gmail is email that's intuitive, efficient, and useful. 15 GB of storage, less spam, and mobile access.



					mail.google.com


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

explod said:


> Apologies if this has already been posted but it reveal's the overall truth in my view:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Didn't quite work explod. Wrong link ?


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Absolute xxxxing tragedy.  Totally agree with the analysis.
> Somehow "everyone" is clinging to the hope that the Taliban will play nice and not execute  thousands of people as they have said to date. I'd like to believe that to - but I wouldn't be betting my life on the possibility.
> 
> I think the women and in particular the educated women in Afghanistan are going to pay a terrible price for this. Under the Taliban the very fact they have achieved an education is going to be seen as traitorous.
> ...



Giving people this false promise of democracy and freedom makes me absolutely disgusted. 
I'm thinking a deal was done behind the scenes as the US offered no air support and the afgan army was about 300,000 vs 70,000ish Taliban.

Some shifty back room deal was done. US had a very fast withdrawal from bases just before the Taliban used Blitz tactics. Something stinks.
And Kabul that was very modern thinking will now suffer under extremists. 

Not only that but I  question how well we are positioned in the new world?
Iran, Russia, China are making all the right power moves.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

God help them': former Defence chief on Afghans who helped Australians​_By political reporter Matthew Doran_

A former Defence chief has criticised delays in evacuating Australians and local interpreters and contractors who supported ADF personnel in Afghanistan.

Retired Admiral Chris Barrie was Chief of the Defence Force when Australia entered Afghanistan in 2001, and fears Afghan nationals will bear the brunt of Taliban reprisals.

"It was in April that we said we wouldn't be there any longer, and it was in April that we started to forecast the need for all of this to happen," he told The World Today program on ABC Radio.

"And I don't know why we suddenly found ourselves so caught out and unprepared to do the work.

"At the moment, it doesn't look very hopeful to me for a lot of those families and people who helped us when we were there.

*"I have read a litany of reasons why this was going to take weeks, months and years, and people were having to be processed — now we find the very ugly truth that we've just left it far too late."*

Admiral Barrie said the only hope for Afghans left behind is if they managed to get access to accommodation arranged by the United States.

"There is absolutely no question that we left it far too late to try and do anything about the people who helped us," he said.

"I think it's terrible, I think it's a horrible story.

"It comes back to the same as the Vietnam experience, and then mark my words, I think there will be reprisals, there will be paybacks, there will be all sorts of brutalities that, I guess, will dribble out over the next period of time.

"For all of those people who helped us — God help them. God help them."









						Live: Exodus at Kabul airport as city falls to Taliban
					

Thousands of Afghans and foreigners are fleeing Kabul, with helicopters seen ferrying people out of the US embassy and US and British troops being sent to secure the airport as the Taliban seizes control. Follow live.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

Let's imagine the Taliban respect the  US Joint  Statement of Afganistan.  Essentially playing nice and allowing people to leave if they wish. So who  would be allowed to leave and far more crucially where would they go ? Which nations will accept 1000, 10,000, 100,000 Afgans who don't trust the Taliban ?









						Joint Statement on Afghanistan - United States Department of State
					

The following is the text of a joint statement on Afghanistan initially released by the following: Albania, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Burkina Faso, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, The High...




					www.state.gov
				












						‘The world needs to stand with us’: UK Afghans watch on as tragedy unfolds
					

Afghans who fled their homeland to settle in the UK express their fears for family and friends left behind




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

It was months ago that there was complaints about giving Afghans asylum. They risked their lives and the lives of their families to help our troops. Our government decided to go as slow as possible.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Giving people this false promise of democracy and freedom makes me absolutely disgusted.
> I'm thinking a deal was done behind the scenes as the US offered no air support and the afgan army was about 300,000 vs 70,000ish Taliban.
> 
> Some shifty back room deal was done. US had a very fast withdrawal from bases just before the Taliban used Blitz tactics. Something stinks.
> ...



I tend to think its just incompetence.
Everywhere you look, from the start of the war, the period with Obama in charge, the peace deal with the Taliban by Trump, the failure to understand what is happening on the ground by Biden, and as for us, the planes to pick up the interpreters weren't even leaving  for a few days, too late now.

And now you watch the USA suck up to the Taliban in the hope of getting some of the mineral wealth.
Honestly, they (and we) just don't get how it works.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> It was months ago that there was complaints about giving Afghans asylum. They risked their lives and the lives of their families to help our troops. Our government decided to go as slow as possible.



If I remember correctly it was Peter Dutton who was insistent that each asylum seeker needed to be vetted veeerrrry caaarfully because we didn't want to risk a potential terrorist slipping into the country.

Yep. Let's just take our time and then let nature take it's course. 









						Scott Morrison ignores moral obligation to Afghan interpreters left behind
					

The resurgence of the Taliban once Western forces left the country was never in doubt...




					www.australianveterannews.com


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

*Why is the government taking so long?’*

The problem is those hundreds – possibly thousands when including family members – who remain in Afghanistan and are terrified of Taliban reprisals as the Australian government dithers on visa checks and security clearances.

The resurgence of the Taliban once Western forces left the country was never in doubt but the Morrison government acts as if it’s been caught by surprise by the need for an urgent, co-ordinated response to an entirely predictable situation.

*As Ishmael Hussainy asks: “Why is the Australian government taking so long checking our security clearances, doing character and health checks, when all these things were done regularly when we worked at the embassy?”*

The government’s shameful delays in securing safe passage out of Afghanistan for Afghan nationals who placed themselves in harm’s way on behalf of Australia has been widely condemned as a moral failure by veterans, veteran advocates, former diplomats and even by John Howard, who as prime minister sent Australian troops to Afghanistan in 2001.

“Where it is clearly the case that they [Afghan interpreters and other staff] could be in danger of retribution, we have an obligation to help them if necessary, by giving them visas to come to live in Australia,” Howard told SBS News.

“That is a moral obligation we have. And it was a moral obligation that was shamefully discarded many years ago when we pulled out of Vietnam. I do not want to see a repetition of that failure in relation to Afghanistan."









						Scott Morrison ignores moral obligation to Afghan interpreters left behind
					

The resurgence of the Taliban once Western forces left the country was never in doubt...




					www.australianveterannews.com
				












						Australian government slammed for 'shameful' exclusion of Afghan contractors from visa program
					

The federal government is being criticised for refusing refugee visas for contractors who worked with Australia in Afghanistan because they weren't directly employed by a government agency.




					www.sbs.com.au


----------



## explod (16 August 2021)

The war on Afghanistan has ended in the defeat of the invaders​by Editor
*Contributed by Jim Hayes*
So, the Taliban are now in Kabul and have almost secured their complete control over Afghanistan. Unpopular President Ashraf Ghani and other high officials fled the country, as the Presidential Place and airport fell. U.S. Embassy staff were evacuated by helicopter, in scenes reminiscent of the pull out of Vietnam in 1975.
*President Ashraf Ghani leaves Afghanistan*








The war on Afghanistan has ended in the defeat of the invaders​by Editor
*Contributed by Jim Hayes*
So, the Taliban are now in Kabul and have almost secured their complete control over Afghanistan. Unpopular President Ashraf Ghani and other high officials fled the country, as the Presidential Place and airport fell. U.S. Embassy staff were evacuated by helicopter, in scenes reminiscent of the pull out of Vietnam in 1975.
*President Ashraf Ghani leaves Afghanistan
Video from *Al Jazeera English




Australia sent troops and became implicated in all that followed, despite it being clear that most of the population was against it.
The blame game takes off in Washington. It’s Trump’s or Biden’s fault hey argue.
Not really. The war begun in 2001 was destined to end in failure from the beginning. It was an invasion and not a rescue mission. The Taliban, who were in government, were accused of  being al Qaeda, and therefore implicated in the bombing of the Twin Towers in New York. This wasn’t true. The real  reason for the invasion geopolitical, and the objective, to secure a gateway to the East and greater access to the Persian Gulf and its oil.
It happens that in their earlier days, the Taliban and al Qaeda had received  material support from the United States. They were useful  against the then Soviet Union. The Soviets left Afghanistan defeated. They had not learned the lesson of history, which is, Afghans have a proud tradition of fighting off invaders. Just ask the British, who for years,  tried to secure the country into their Empire.

The United States, and the so-called Coalition of the Willing should also have taken notice of this lesson of history.
Their invasion put the Taliban into the position of defenders of the nation against an occupation force, and their present march to victory would not be possible without the solid support of majority of the population. Disclosures by WikiLeaks and other sources have revealed that these invaders have committed crimes against humanity.
Whatever one might think of the politics of  these people and  the reintroduction of their brand of Sharia law, the simple fact that this is what Afghans are choosing must be recognised. It is their right to make their own choice.
After billions of dollars pumped in to build up the army around the imposed President, it has proven to be a useless force against the Taliban. Many of its soldiers welcome their coming.
True, there are those trying to get out. Theirs is a bad situation, for many are seen as traitors to their own people. Much like those who collaborated with the Germans, in the countries they occupied  during World War Two. It is also true that the Taliban view of punishment is likely to be harsh.
The Taliban has promised an amnesty. The problem is that the depth of popular sentiment against some of them, may mean a different story on the ground.
Others might fear the Taliban for reasons other than fear of being seen as traitors.
It is also true that the coalition that used them is in no hurry to help.
The best that can be done now, is to stop pushing around this long suffering country and allow it  the space to rebuild.
Hopefully, this will make it harder for the politicians and generals to get away with creating war for business and empire building.

*Editor* | 16 August 2021 at 9:53 am | URL: https://the-pen.co/?p=38159


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I tend to think its just incompetence.
> Everywhere you look, from the start of the war, the period with Obama in charge, the peace deal with the Taliban by Trump, the failure to understand what is happening on the ground by Biden, and as for us, the planes to pick up the interpreters weren't even leaving  for a few days, too late now.
> 
> And now you watch the USA suck up to the Taliban in the hope of getting some of the mineral wealth.
> Honestly, they (and we) just don't get how it works.



The moment you didn't see US air forces pound them into the dust, is the moment you knew a deal was made. Same with Taliban sitting outside of Kabul last night. They waited till westerners evacuated. They wanted a "peaceful transfer", this is the Taliban we are talking  about.

If they wanted to really embarrass the US they would have swept through. A deal has been made.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> The moment you didn't see US air forces pound them into the dust, is the moment you knew a deal was made. Same with Taliban sitting outside of Kabul last night. They waited till westerners evacuated. They wanted a "peaceful transfer", this is the Taliban we are talking  about.
> 
> If they wanted to really embarrass the US they would have swept through. A deal has been made.



A deal from a position of weakness made at the last minute.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> A deal from a position of weakness made at the last minute.



Bigger agenda going on imo.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Bigger agenda going on imo.



The USA already signed the deal a couple of years before. Trump told them we were going to leave at a certain time. It gave the Taliban the chance to talk to all the US aligned Afghanis and threaten them and plan the invasion.

The speed shows how well it was planned.

The USA said they would back the army with money and munitions (but not air support as they had left) but they took away their staunchest  allies back to the USA and Australia with the others promised a lift out if things went to ****. The remaining population must have felt angry and lost.

I think the USA thought that the Taliban would take back maybe 2/3rds of the territory like they had before the USA invasions but this was worse. And lets face it the USA was not loved by the populace.
Total PR (and humanitarian) disaster.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> The USA already signed the deal a couple of years before. Trump told them we were going to leave at a certain time. It gave the Taliban the chance to talk to all the US aligned Afghanis and threaten them and plan the invasion.
> 
> The speed shows how well it was planned.
> 
> ...



They literally took out air support while the Taliban was on the offensive (last month).
Either the US military leaders chosen are more stupid then I thought possible. Or they took off for a reason. 

I find it hard to believe the Americans were absolutely this stupid. Their pull out date was meant to be August 31. If there was no other agenda then Biden and those in charge should be strung up. 

But personally I think the quickest way to avoid huge casualties was a quick offensive like the Taliban carried out.  That was only possible be communicating with the US. Then the US troops pulling up stumps quickly.
Otherwise this whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

Never underestimate stupidity in government. That's why I am not a conspiracist.

They thought the Government had way more troops and it was just some minor provinces being lost.

To be fair though, I don't know what else the USA could have done. Sure bomb them a bit on the way out but they already had cut a deal and wanted the Taliban to comply with it.  They either stayed or left.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

Jacinda Ahern is putting New Zealands hand up to evacuate troops and Afghan nationals who supported their troops. 









						New Zealand to deploy troops to aid citizens’ evacuation from Afghanistan
					

Jacinda Ardern said New Zealand would also attempt to evacuate Afghan nationals who worked with the country




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Jacinda Ahern is putting New Zealands hand up to evacuate troops and Afghan nationals who supported their troops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bit late now!


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Never underestimate stupidity in government. That's why I am not a conspiracist.
> 
> They thought the Government had way more troops and it was just some minor provinces being lost.
> 
> To be fair though, I don't know what else the USA could have done. Sure bomb them a bit on the way out but they already had cut a deal and wanted the Taliban to comply with it.  They either stayed or left.



I do think a deal was done on a US quick withdrawal during a Taliban offensive. Realistically you get the least amount of casualties. And there's a few reasons why I think this happened.

1. US was never going to get a cohesive Afghanistan. And wanted out.

2. Talks with Taliban have been ongoing.

3. US pretty much grounded the Afghanistan airforce after taking tech support away.

4. US let this offensive take place despite military leaders screaming about the outcome.

5. Intelligence network were all over this for months. The build-up was known. It was a major offensive that was noticed.

6. US troops were rushed out of many zones except Kabul. So far I haven't heard any contact between them and the Taliban.

Handing back in this manner means we didn't see troops dying and screaming out for help for months on end. US can and will blame afgan forces for the loss. US doesn't need to rush back in and redeploy troops as the Taliban is already in control. No more dead and injured soldiers coming home.

Not a conspiracy theory. It's the option that makes the most sense. Beyond Biden and his military picks being so stupid, but also so incredibly  lucky that this just haphazardly happened like this.

This was an exit in which a deal was cut.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Bit late now!




Not sure about that.  The airport is open. They have indicated that diplomatic personnel can leave. Jacinda's statement that she wants to pull out a number of civilians and their families is clearly ahead of the "formal" process of visas etc which have essentially run out of time.

It also says/suggests that New Zealand will settle these people. Good on her. John Howard will be the first to salute her.

_I don't think it's something that should turn on some narrow legalism,” he said.  (John Howard)

“If a group of people gave help to Australians, such that their lives and that of those immediately around them are in danger, we have a moral obligation to help them.









						John Howard says Australia has a 'moral obligation' to help Afghan interpreters
					

EXCLUSIVE: The former prime minister has added his voice to calls for the government to do more to help Afghans who assisted Australia.




					www.sbs.com.au
				



_


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Not sure about that.  The airport is open. They have indicated that diplomatic personnel can leave. Jacinda's statement that she wants to pull out a number of civilians and their families is clearly ahead of the "formal" process of visas etc which have essentially run out of time.
> 
> It also says/suggests that New Zealand will settle these people. Good on her. John Howard will be the first to salute her.
> 
> ...



The Taliban will just be shooting the ones left behind.  Reports are that there have been shootings near the airport.
Any that get on the plane in 24 hours will be friends of the Taliban.

From the ABC: 
A government source says given the "deteriorating security situation" in Kabul, it is unclear when aircraft will be able to land, but planning for an airlift is proceeding for when "the situation allows".

The ABC understands the government intends to bring home dual Australian-Afghanistan nationals, journalists and some former Kabul embassy staff.


----------



## Ferret (16 August 2021)

I find it really hard to understand how the Taliban retained sufficient support from the population to remain strong through the last 20 years.  Maybe it's my western mindset.

I really feel for the people of Afghanistan.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

Succinct  comprehensive overview (IMO) of the current and future Afgan situation.









						Experts react: The Taliban has taken Kabul. Now what?
					

Atlantic Council experts, many of whom have spent many years in the trenches on Afghanistan policy, weigh in on the fall of Kabul.




					www.atlanticcouncil.org


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2021)

Ferret said:


> I find it really hard to understand how the Taliban retained sufficient support from the population to remain strong through the last 20 years.  Maybe it's my western mindset.
> 
> I really feel for the people of Afghanistan.




Maybe the force of arms ?

Arming the general population may have been better than arming a few soldiers. If the Taliban came into a village a tried any funny business, the citizens could wipe them out.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the force of arms ?
> 
> Arming the general population may have been better than arming a few soldiers. If the Taliban came into a village a tried any funny business, the citizens could wipe them out.




Yeah. NO !! If villagers ended up with weaponry then they would be instantly assumed to be Taliban by  the current (now ex) government. Bang bang your dead

And if you think a few guns held by villagers would be sufficient to stop a determined Taliban group .. Well they don't have the Seven Samurai to co-ordinate them do they ?  Sorry I don't think that was going to work out well.

Anyway this how it has all worked out to date.








						Seyed is a tiler by day, but after 20 years of peace, he's once again preparing to defend his home
					

The Taliban is advancing across Afghanistan and only a few key cities remain under government control. The city of Mazar-i-Sharif is the last battle in the north.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Yeah. NO !! If villagers ended up with weaponry then they would be instantly assumed to be Taliban by  the current (now ex) government. Bang bang your dead
> 
> And if you think a few guns held by villagers would be sufficient to stop a determined Taliban group .. Well they don't have the Seven Samurai to co-ordinate them do they ?  Sorry I don't think that was going to work out well.



Its pretty obvious the ex  military didn't give a stuff about much except saving their own skins. Locals know who are the villagers and who are the Taliban and would act accordingly.


----------



## bellenuit (16 August 2021)

My immediate fear is for the thousands of civilians packed into the civilian side of the airport. Only the military side is protected by US and other soldiers. What happens when the last of the soldiers leave? You will have thousands of civilians readily identified as anti-Taliban (because they want to leave) all in the same unprotected location.


----------



## DB008 (16 August 2021)

Biden foreign policy is a complete disaster....


----------



## DB008 (16 August 2021)

China is a few moves ahead....


*Afghanistan’s Mineral Resources Are a Lost Opportunity and a Threat to National Security*

In a January 2020 article, The Diplomat warned about critical rare earth elements and mineral reserves in Afghanistan that could put the U.S. at risk if they fell into the wrong hands. Just 18 months later, the American-hating Taliban have taken control of the country and China is waiting in the wings.​​The Diplomat reports:​​Without a coherent strategy, Afghanistan’s vast mineral resources represent both a lost opportunity and a threat to national security.​​Torn by four decades of war and desperate poverty, Afghanistan is believed to be sitting on one of the richest troves of minerals in the world. The value of these resources has been roughly estimated between $1-3 trillion.​​Afghanistan has vast reserves of gold, platinum, silver, copper, iron, chromite, lithium, uranium, and aluminum… The United States Geological Survey (USGS), through its extensive scientific research of minerals, concluded that Afghanistan may hold 60 million metric tons of copper, 2.2 billion tons of iron ore, 1.4 million tons of rare earth elements (REEs) such as lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, and veins of aluminium, gold, silver, zinc, mercury, and lithium. According to Pentagon officials, their initial analysis at one location in Ghazni province showed the potential for lithium deposits as large as those of Bolivia, which has the world’s largest known lithium reserves. The USGS estimates the Khanneshin deposits in Helmand province will yield 1.1.-1.4 million metric tons of REEs. Some reports estimate Afghanistan REE resources are among the largest on earth.​​REEs have become essential part of modern technology. They are used in cell phones, televisions, hybrid engines, computers, lasers, and batteries. U.S. Congressional findings have called REEs critical to national security. REEs are [also] key to the production of tank navigation systems, missile guidance systems, missile defense components, satellites, and military communications systems.​​​Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi held meetings with Taliban co-founder Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar in the northern Chinese city of Tianjin on July 28th.​












.​


----------



## IFocus (16 August 2021)

What a cluster, blood on our hands so it seems, failed those that saved casualties for our men on the ground feeling for those that served and feel let down.

I can forgive the SAS for lack of discipline due to ridiculous number of rotations but the government and bureaucrats siting in ivory towers  not so much.


----------



## divs4ever (16 August 2021)

China and not Russia ??

 after all Russia  has a ready access to Afghanistan  ,  and though their machinery is less hi-tech than some  , robust  might be the way to go in a land-locked land , 

 but time will tell  the West has had 20 years to prove how 'beneficial and supportive ' they are   , a straight-dealer could go a long way  ( remember some relationship with Iran is far from impossible  either )

 now one tweak that MIGHT be possible , is for the Pakistani 'tribal lands ' unite with Afghanistan


----------



## bellenuit (16 August 2021)

DB008 said:


> Biden foreign policy is a complete disaster....




The wheels were already set in motion.....






GOP takes down 2020 page touting Trump's 'historic peace agreement with the Taliban'​


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

It should be noted that Trump wanted to bring the Taliban to the Whitehouse in a sign of legitimacy of what has now played out. My guess is he wanted to strike a deal with the Taliban. Which as dirty as it may feel, would have been the most favourable outcome. As we know Trump didn't mind dealing with shitbags and there's a tonne of minerals. 

Good chance if you enrich a country the people may benefit. 

Biden has completely fcked it from here it seems. Even now he is on bloody holidays.


----------



## bellenuit (17 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> It should be noted that Trump wanted to bring the Taliban to the Whitehouse in a sign of legitimacy of what has now played out. My guess is he wanted to strike a deal with the Taliban. Which as dirty as it may feel, would have been the most favourable outcome. As we know Trump didn't mind dealing with shitbags and there's a tonne of minerals.
> 
> Good chance if you enrich a country the people may benefit.
> 
> Biden has completely fcked it from here it seems. Even now he is on bloody holidays.




I think it was going to be f***** up no matter what. Do you honestly think if Trump were still in power he would have achieved a different result by pulling the troops out May 1st? , 3.5 months earlier. As someone eloquently put it, Trump couldn't spell Afghanistan even if you gave him the first 8 letters.

There is nothing the Taliban would have agreed to with Trump that might have saved the situation that they wouldn't also agree to with Biden. They don't give a rats ass who is in the White House.

It's a mess, but Biden is being stoic about it when he suggests there is no other alternative. They tried, they failed and now it's time to get out of there. It's the classic damned if you do and damned if you don't.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I think it was going to be f***** no matter what. Do you honestly think if Trump were still in power he would have achieved a different result pulling the troops out May 1st? , just 3.5 months difference timewise.
> 
> As someone eloquently put it, Trump could even spell Afghanistan if you gave him the first 8 letters.
> 
> It's a mess, but Biden is being stoic about it when he suggests there is no other alternative. They tried, they failed and now it's time to get out of there.



It was conditions based with Trump and he listened to the people he was supposed to. 

I'm sorry but this is a bloody mess that no one recommended. Let's remember Obama/Biden's track record in the middle East when Isis blew through. That was a continuing mess until Trump showed up and actually listened to the advice. Let's get it from the lips of an idiot:



Trying to blame Trump for this mess is laughable. He ain't in charge.
The end goal was for an exit with minimal collateral. Trump was good at delegating in these situations and he didn't give two figs about war. He also made sure no more US troops were killed at the negotiating table.
Trump was erratic enough for nations to back off. But I think he wanted to negotiate the Taliban over (whether possible or not).

Biden is a fking mess of real world consequences. And every nation knows he is a weak prick.  Russia waltzed into Ukraine under Obama/Biden, Isis under Obama/Biden and now Taliban. Great record there.


----------



## DB008 (17 August 2021)

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/25/harris-afghanistan-biden-withdrawal-decision-484581
.​


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2021)

Women and children first in the great withdrawal.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

The Taliban were always going to eventually take back power. It was either through years of bloodshed or a handover. And what we got essentially was a handover.

The mess is that we didn't get people out in time. I'm not sure what conditions Biden placed on the Taliban takeover either.

Sucks for the Afghanistan people. But seems they didn't really want it. Either way everyone got an ending that Hollywood can make a movie about.

There is a lot of propaganda going around about Taliban and US. But so far both seems to be sticking to some sort of agreement.
Taliban have said they wanted peace. My biggest guess is that they know how much money is at stake if they stuff this up.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 August 2021)

The  excellent Peter Hartcher in the Age points out that the Taliban now own all the massive weaponry given to the Afghanistan Army and for the first time the Taliban now have an airforce! 

I mean they could decide to invade a neighbouring country if they wanted.

He also points out we are dreaming if we don't think the country will now be a safe haven for Al Quada.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 August 2021)

Also looks like Pakistan were deeply involved. 
Arming and coordinating the disparate tribal  militia groups that make up the Taliban.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> The  excellent Peter Hartcher in the Age points out that the Taliban now own all the massive weaponry given to the Afghanistan Army and for the first time the Taliban now have an airforce!
> 
> I mean they could decide to invade a neighbouring country if they wanted.
> 
> He also points out we are dreaming if we don't think the country will now be a safe haven for Al Quada.



This is the part where I think Biden made a deal. Under Republican they were going to strip out equipment. Trump must have been advised that the Taliban were going to take over no matter what. I'm not sure why Biden would have thought differently.

Peter is just bleating. Some of these dckheads are the same ones whinging about being there in the first place. Or how we should exit. Well exit they did.

The fact is we don't know where this is going to swing to. At the moment it's just fear pr0n for reporters. Taliban seem to want some form of peace. They now have the weaponry to enforce that amongst the warring tribes. 

Unfortunately democracy for peace didn't work over 20 years. So say hello to oppression. Horrible reality for many.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Also looks like Pakistan were deeply involved.
> Arming and coordinating the disparate tribal  militia groups that make up the Taliban.



Considering Bin laden was living there. 
I heard Russia was also arming them.
Maybe it was payback.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

It reminds me of how Australians have surrendered to Tyranny with nary a squeak.

We, of all people, shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

Love how the media eats up Bidens bs speech despite the ugly truth. Oh well, guess we are back to the fantasies of the past. 

Take a good look at it because it was exactly why I said that Trump was simply "American presidents unfiltered".


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Love how the media eats up Bidens bs speech despite the ugly truth. Oh well, guess we are back to the fantasies of the past.
> 
> Take a good look at it because it was exactly why I said that Trump was simply "American presidents unfiltered".




Based!

And it highlights the worrying and possibly destructive (for us) trend of adhereing to the official narrative, come what may, rather than the pragmatics of the situation.

Such self deception has been the demise of every single civilization that I can think of... And we are careering down exactly the same path, IMO.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

Wanna know how completely out of touch and absurdly ridiculous the current US administration is?

\/ \/ \/


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Wanna know how completely out of touch and absurdly ridiculous the current US administration is?
> 
> \/ \/ \/




I'm sure a deals been after that spectacle.
Dollar akbar!!!


----------



## The Triangle (17 August 2021)

Ferret said:


> I find it really hard to understand how the Taliban retained sufficient support from the population to remain strong through the last 20 years.  Maybe it's my western mindset.
> 
> I really feel for the people of Afghanistan.



The Afghanis probably look at Trump, Biden, the Kardashians, net zero, lgbtqq+++, antifa, gender and race quotas, ESG principles, boys who become girls and girls who become boys, cult like mega curches, the masked singer, cancel culture, people camping overnight for iphones, neverending lockdowns, safe spaces and really feel sorry for us.  

Not everyone wants American/western style democracy and culture.   The country will be better off with the westerners gone.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

The Triangle said:


> The Afghanis probably look at Trump, Biden, the Kardashians, net zero, lgbtqq+++, antifa, gender and race quotas, ESG principles, boys who become girls and girls who become boys, cult like mega curches, the masked singer, cancel culture, people camping overnight for iphones, neverending lockdowns, safe spaces and really feel sorry for us.
> 
> Not everyone wants American/western style democracy and culture.   The country will be better off with the westerners gone.



Damn!!! Hard to argue that.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Damn!!! Hard to argue that.



I imagine the the 15-25 year old girls currently being assigned Taliban "husbands" may disagree, if they were allowed to...


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2021)

I find it laughable that Jack Dorsey and his sycophants at Twitter cancel Trump, plus everyone else they disagree with.
And yet somehow,  the Taliban, just like the iranian president, are free to  twit.
taliban saviours
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2021)

And while I am in the mood, two weeks ago American Intelligence was saying that the Taliban would take Kabul within 90 days.
They didn't even last 9 days.
This , the same Intelligence Community that provided Bush with incontestable proof that Saddam Hussain had WMD's in his possession,  but could not work out beforehand that Saudi backed agents were planning the Sep 11 events. The same Intelligence community that  accepted the fake Steele Dossier on Trump and his links to Russia, but could not work out that a bunch of right wing dickheads were about to "siexe" the capitol building.
About as useful as the ABC fact checking mechanism.
Mick


----------



## rederob (18 August 2021)

The transition to Taliban rule did not happen as planned, but most cities fell without a shot fired in anger.
Putting aside the Kabul airport fiasco, on the ground media seem surprised that the transition is not chaotic, nor filled with retribution. Maybe that's to come?
Unsurprisingly Morrison again failed to repatriate helpers of our efforts there, although more media attention is focused on Biden doing what Trump never managed in his 4 years in office.
The real issue is that in 20 years we left no enduring productive legacy.
If Afghanistan is as mineral rich as believed, nothing was done set up an industry base.
On the other hand, as instanced in some commentary above, China (which actually has a land border with Afghanistan - already road accessible via Tajikistan) is poised to make investments.
America may have inadvertently opened a new door to Chinese dominance in PGEs and rare earth minerals which are essential as the world moves to net zero emissions.


----------



## moXJO (18 August 2021)

rederob said:


> If Afghanistan is as mineral rich as believed, nothing was done set up an industry base.
> On the other hand, as instanced in some commentary above, China (which actually has a land border with Afghanistan - already road accessible via Tajikistan) is poised to make investments.
> America may have inadvertently opened a new door to Chinese dominance in PGEs and rare earth minerals which are essential as the world moves to net zero emissions.



China is chomping at the bit to get in. What impact will it have on Australian mining, iron ore in particular?


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2021)

China will have as much success in Afghanistan as the British, Russians, and yanks before them.
Given that the Taliban profess to want an Islamic state all over the world, whats a bit that the  Muslim Uighurs will be a bargaining chip with the Taliban.
Can't see the CCP agreeing to anything over those "terrorists".
Mick


----------



## rederob (18 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> China will have as much success in Afghanistan as the British, Russians, and yanks before them.
> Given that the Taliban profess to want an Islamic state all over the world, whats a bit that the  Muslim Uighurs will be a bargaining chip with the Taliban.
> Can't see the CCP agreeing to anything over those "terrorists".
> Mick



China has the money, materials and expertise to offer the Taliban in order to develop its resources.
China's BRI would put the Taliban in control (albeit in debt), whereas western development models put companies in control while also letting  them take out the profits.
No bargaining chips would be on the table.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2021)

What on earth makes you think the Taliban is interested in money materials and expertise from China?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Wanna know how completely out of touch and absurdly ridiculous the current US administration is?
> 
> \/ \/ \/





Yea, a pretty stupid attempt to wipe egg off their faces.

Defeated by a group of barbarians only just out of the stone age.

Although you can't really expect the US to stay in Afghanistan forever They could have come up with a better solution. It certainly degrades the relationship between the US and it's allies, can we depend on them anymore to fly the flag of freedom ?

And lets face it, Trump would have done the same thing.


----------



## rederob (18 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What on earth makes you think the Taliban is interested in money materials and expertise from China?
> Mick



It's not about what I think.
"The Chinese approach is, 'Through economic infusion we create roads, we create infrastructure, and we make sure everyone has jobs,'" said Stimson Centre's Ms Sun.


----------



## wayneL (18 August 2021)

The whole operation was doomed right from the start IMO, unless they went in with a scorched earth policy. But the world community would never have accepted that and could have kicked off a wider conflict.

And who the hell knows what the next stage of all this is?


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> The whole operation was doomed right from the start IMO, unless they went in with a scorched earth policy. But the world community would never have accepted that and could have kicked off a wider conflict.
> 
> And who the hell knows what the next stage of all this is?



India will be nervous IMO.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2021)

rederob said:


> It's not about what I think.
> "The Chinese approach is, 'Through economic infusion we create roads, we create infrastructure, and we make sure everyone has jobs,'" said Stimson Centre's Ms Sun.



What China says is immaterial for two reasons.
1. What they say and what they do bear little relationship.
2.My original premise that the Taliban will not care what China thinks or offers unless its on the Taliban's terms.
Mick


----------



## basilio (18 August 2021)

This story encapsulates what the new generation of Afghan women face and fear. It will be interesting to see how the 2021 Taliban leadership respond.









						Afghan women’s defiance and despair: ‘I never thought I’d have to wear a burqa. My identity will be lost’
					

As city after city falls to the Taliban, women fear that the freedoms won since 2001 will be crushed




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 August 2021)

Afghanistan Diary: The fall of Kabul was predictable if you were there​Living in Afghanistan’s capital the week before the Taliban captured the city, the reality was at odds with US intelligence.

………………………………

A week ago, _The_ _Washington Post _published a scoop that US intelligence officials had revised their assessment of Afghanistan to say that Kabul could fall in 90 days. The assessment was later revised a second time to suggest the city could be isolated within 72 hours. A day later, Kabul had fallen. Could anyone have predicted it? Actually, yes.

During my week in the capital, everyone I met was certain that the Taliban would arrive within days. Predictions were extraordinarily accurate: one day after Mazar-i-Sharif, the last major city in northern Afghanistan, was taken. I relied on highly precise intelligence from local businessmen and even foreign journalists to schedule my departure flight.

The question is: why did the intelligence community fail so miserably at something that seemed so easy for anyone with knowledge of local realities? The answer is that intelligence work is no longer about local realities but about data, theory and analysis.

On the one hand, Serena is the safest hotel in Kabul and one of the safest places outside the green zone, where embassies and government buildings are situated. On the other, leaving the hotel is a distinctly uncanny experience. You pass through an armoured gate, then a winding corridor inside one wall, then an open lane after that wall, then a guard armed with a Kalashnikov opens a very narrow door and the light from the street falls on your eyes.

Nodding to the guard, you step out. Five seconds to the car, but they seem to last forever. Reminds me of those fun fair shooting galleries. Serena is a strange place. It scores high on every security protocol because of its safe basement, but no one ever shows you the directions to it.

At the Serena, there are hushed conversations everywhere. In the café, by the snooker table, in the vast and perfectly manicured garden, even in the pool and spa. I prefer the café. As he munches on a plate of french fries, a former Afghan high official tries to make me understand the logic behind events.

“Imagine I am Afghanistan,” he says, “the waiter there is China, that guy is Russia, that maybe India. You are America. What do you do?” Like an unprepared student, I stare at him blankly. Eventually, I manage to say: “You create trouble?” I seem to be on the right track. “Yes, you create trouble. You have already screwed up in Afghanistan, so how do you use that? You create total chaos, so that your adversaries have to deal with it. Later, if necessary, you might even create some Uighur cells in the north to operate inside China …”

Like so many of the buildings in Kabul, the main and most noble entrance to the National Museum of Afghanistan has been closed and a new and more secure one created in the back.

On the day I visit, it feels rather nice. You have to walk through an empty field. I must be the only visitor, but inside the building there is a flurry of activity. Some rooms are not exhibition halls but restoration ateliers. I pretend to be lost and attempt to peek inside a couple, but the artisans quickly rush me out, before returning to their treasures.

The museum was repeatedly bombed and looted in the past four decades, with artworks from Afghanistan’s glorious history showing up in private collections worldwide. More recently there has been an effort to return those works to their rightful place.

The Japanese government deserves particular praise. There is now a Japan room in the museum, but it is not devoted to Japanese art. What you find inside are the stolen artworks recently returned from Japan. Once again, the Kabul Museum can be considered one of the greatest in the world. Will its treasures survive the return of the Taliban?

One day, I put on Afghan clothes and take a long walk in the Kabul bazaar. Finally, no longer marred by blast barriers, the city comes alive. There is no better way to discover how large Kabul really is and how vibrant its economy has become.

I have been to bazaars in Lahore and Tashkent. I am not sure this is smaller. A long street is entirely devoted to electronics. There are streets for clothes, shoes, automobile parts, the usual cloth bags full to the brim with spices and seeds. And above all, there is the bird market, a narrow alley lined with stalls selling birds. Pleasure birds, prized for their plumes and singing.

A small boy walks by and the sun shines directly on the knives attached to a chain that he carries in his hand. We are approaching Muharram, the first month of the Islamic calendar, during which Afghan men cut open their own backs with knives attached to chains.

I am waiting for my flight to Istanbul in the departure lounge of Kabul International Airport, two days before the Taliban took over the city on August 15. There is no one at the door of the small business lounge so I feel tempted to sneak in, but the room is crammed with Americans vociferating into their mobile phones.

I take a walk around the souvenir shop instead. It is empty. Almost all passengers are Afghans leaving Kabul, perhaps forever. The airport is full and there are no seats left on my flight. But there is calm. The children are excited, not afraid.

This is the same airport that just two days later will become a scene for indiscriminate shooting, with Afghans clinging to the wheels of the departing military aircraft and falling to their deaths.

I cannot but think how easy it is to perish because you overlooked some advice, or happened not to meet someone who could have given you a crucial piece of information that might have saved your life.

_Bruno Maçães was Portugal’s Europe minister from 2013 to 2015 and is the author of _Geopolitics for the End Time: From the Pandemic to the Climate Crisis, _which will be released in September._

— New Statesman


----------



## Sean K (18 August 2021)

I thought this thread was called Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam? LOL


----------



## bellenuit (18 August 2021)

If you start with the premise that with the US withdrawal, it was inevitable that the Taliban would take over, then the total capitulation of the Afghan military may have been a blessing in disguise. If they had put up any decent kind of resistance, you would have had mass killings of not only the military but of civilians as the Taliban always fight from within civilian population enclaves. The end result would have been the same in the long run, a complete Taliban takeover, but with mass casualties and a blood lust for revenge against those who opposed them.

The only alternatives were for the US to remain, something that had become very unpopular in the states and in any case made impossible by deliberate decisions of the previous administration, or to perhaps remain in a very limited capacity say to defend Kabul only and at least maintain some sort of normality for the civilians there. The latter would also have allowed a government to be maintained that might keep the status quo in relation to China and Russia.

Terrible as the scenes at the airport have been in the last few days and aware it could have been handled better, there haven’t been any significant loss of life so far.  It is disastrous for the women of Afghanistan, but was that ever likely to be different following the inevitable US withdrawal.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2021)

Interesting that the RAAF Hercules, that went to pick up refugees from Kabul, only found 26 people there. By the media ramping one would have thought the plane would be jam packed.
It will be interesting to see how many flights are required.


----------



## basilio (19 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting that the RAAF Hercules, that went to pick up refugees from Kabul, only found 26 people there. By the media ramping one would have thought the plane would be jam packed.
> It will be interesting to see how many flights are required.



Maybe.  I'd be confident that if Peter Dutton has his way no one will be allowed on board until he has totally exhausted every means of ensuring they cannot possibly represent a terrorist threat to Australia.

Of course the best way of achieving that result is not letting them in at all. 








						Peter Dutton suggests some former Afghan guards and interpreters could pose security risk to Australia
					

Defence minister’s extraordinary attack follows Scott Morrison ruling out permanently resettling 4,200 Afghans in Australia on temporary visas




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (19 August 2021)

Looks like the West could just strangle the  new Taliban administration at birth. The Afghan Treasury is almost out of money and all their savings are sitting in US banks which  are not transferring funds.

Apparently the NGO's are also stopping funds and they finance 40 +% of the countries budget.  Should take more than few few to destroy teh economy, see mass unemployment and hunger -  ( and naturally of course blame the Taliban for economic mismanagement. )

Looking ahead however who would step in to fill the gap ? And what price would they ask politically ?

From an historical POV it is worth remembering what happened in 1949 when Mao won the civil way and the Nationalists  led by Chiang Ki-Skek fled to Taiwan. Initially Mao approached the US for recognition and support. The US administration decided they wern't going to support a communist government. Mao then ended up formally allied by USSR. That wasn't their first choice.





__





						Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian
					

history.state.gov 3.0 shell




					history.state.gov
				











						The US froze nearly $9.5 billion of Afghanistan's reserves, reports say - leaving the Taliban facing a cash crunch and currency woes
					

Afghanistan's acting central-bank chief said the population could soon be facing strong inflation that would hit the poor.




					markets.businessinsider.com


----------



## IFocus (20 August 2021)

Worth a read









						The Ides of August
					

August 15, 2021 I’ve been silent for a while. I’ve been silent about Afghanistan for longer. But too many things are going unsaid. I won’t try to evoke the emotions, somehow both swirling and yet leaden: the grief, the anger, the sense of futility. Instead, as so often before, I will use my mind...




					www.sarahchayes.org


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## sptrawler (21 August 2021)

There were calls for the U.S to get out of the middle east for years, it was never going to be an easy exit, how it pans out is what matters IMO.
If the Afghans want to return to the life pre occupation, that is their right, if the don't they will make changes.
If the Taliban resurrect the massive terrorist attacks, as per the 9/11 twin towers incidents, I'm sure the same outcome will eventuate.
I think it will be a different Taliban, Chinese money, will bring forward mining projects IMO and a more liberal Afghanistan will develop.
Time will tell.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There were calls for the U.S to get out of the middle east for years, it was never going to be an easy exit, how it pans out is what matters IMO.
> If the Afghans want to return to the life pre occupation, that is their right, if the don't they will make changes.
> If the Taliban resurrect the massive terrorist attacks, as per the 9/11 twin towers incidents, I'm sure the same outcome will eventuate.
> I think it will be a different Taliban, Chinese money, will bring forward mining projects IMO and a more liberal Afghanistan will develop.
> Time will tell.



I agree that it is up to the Afhanis to determine their system of government, though I am not sure they got a lot of choice in the matter. 
As to America getting out of the middle east, that should alo include getting out of the Phillipines,  Japan,  Gunatanimo Bay which belongs to Cuba, Germany, and all the other overseas bases they hold.
However, I wish I could share your optimism of the future.
The expert thinking 20 years ago was that China would become liberal as it became a part of the Western influenced commercial trade mechanisms. 
A more affluent China would want all the things we Westerners take for granted, rather than being vassals of the State.
Look how thats turned out.
China is more repressive and belligerent than ever.
My fear is that the Taliban will take a leaf out of the Chinese play book  use the one party authoritarian rule over everything  in the lives of Afganhis .
Being able to allow citizens to have state controlled mobile phones, Sharia Law, disallowing any other form of religion or politics, controlling all the military weaponry. These things would appeal to the Taliban.
Mick


----------



## rederob (21 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There were calls for the U.S to get out of the middle east for years, it was never going to be an easy exit, how it pans out is what matters IMO.
> If the Afghans want to return to the life pre occupation, that is their right, if the don't they will make changes.
> If the Taliban resurrect the massive terrorist attacks, as per the 9/11 twin towers incidents, I'm sure the same outcome will eventuate.
> I think it will be a different Taliban, Chinese money, will bring forward mining projects IMO and a more liberal Afghanistan will develop.
> Time will tell.



Just to be clear, the Taliban were not directly involved in *terrorism *as it has never been their interest. 
Pre war the Taliban allowed al Qaeda to train Islamists in Afghanistan and got arms in return.
Mullah Omar objected to al Qaeda's 9/11 attack but was was not able to stop Bin Laden from proceeding with it.
No 9/11 terrorists were Afghanis.
ISIS and the Taliban are effectively "enemies".
Under the deal done between America and the Taliban, neither al Qaeda nor any other extremist group are allowed to operate in the areas under Taliban control.


----------



## rederob (21 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The expert thinking 20 years ago was that China would become liberal as it became a part of the Western influenced commercial trade mechanisms.



I have followed China's rise for over 30 years and never heard that claim.


mullokintyre said:


> A more affluent China would want all the things we Westerners take for granted, rather than being vassals of the State.



Not sure when you were last in China but the average Chinese citizen is more technology oriented than many in the west, and has access to *all *the things we want (and more) but at a more affordable price.  Their public transport systems are also world leading. Aside from that Chinese people have more confidence in their government than most democracies.







mullokintyre said:


> China is more repressive and belligerent than ever.



Actually its the west who sabre rattle and continue to occupy regions of the world they are not wanted.


mullokintyre said:


> Being able to allow citizens to have state controlled mobile phones, Sharia Law, disallowing any other form of religion or politics, controlling all the military weaponry. These things would appeal to the Taliban.



Given that's what they were doing before US invasion then I am sure they will do it again.  However the Taliban do not have the means to block the internet or mobile phones.


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## mullokintyre (21 August 2021)

rederob said:


> I have followed China's rise for over 30 years and never heard that claim.
> 
> Not sure when you were last in China but the average Chinese citizen is more technology oriented than many in the west, and has access to *all *the things we want (and more) but at a more affordable price.  Their public transport systems are also world leading. Aside from that Chinese people have more confidence in their government than most democracies.
> View attachment 129266
> ...



Perhaps you need to just read a little wider than you do now.
And while your at it, haver a bit of a read about what constitutes a straw man argument.
AS for the claim about the level of technology,  I didn't deny it.
What I said was the level of control of that technology allows the state to be as repressive as they like.
Every phone must be approved by the state. 
Every app must be approved by the state.
Every citizen has to earn CCP approved social credits before they can even travel.
AS to the Taliban not having the means to control the internet and mobile phones, what the hell do you think China does? You have already said that China will step in and provide the money , technology , etc that the Taliban need. All they have to do is takeover whatever comms companies exist in Afganistan.
As to your comment that  


> Chinese people have more confidence in their government than most democracies.



What source did it come from? the CCP? Rueters? CNN?
When all forms of criticism are banned, what the hell do you expect them to say.
Its about as valid as the polls that gave Robert Mugabe 98% of the vote in Zimbabwe elections.
Mick


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## basilio (21 August 2021)

Long view of what has happened with the Taliban in Afghanistan.









						The Taliban was watching Trump's America and saw an opportunity
					

Many view Afghanistan and are left asking: how did we get here? Analysts say the answer lies somewhere between the Taliban's refusal to quit and America's desperation to get out.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (21 August 2021)

What was "The War on Terror" all about ? What has it cost ? What have been the results ?


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## basilio (21 August 2021)

Jonathan Pie in his  singular inimitable style offers a pithy more direct analysis of what has happened in Afghanistan.


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## rederob (21 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And while your at it, haver a bit of a read about what constitutes a straw man argument.



I studied logic at university, so I know I did not use a straw man.


mullokintyre said:


> AS for the claim about the level of technology,  I didn't deny it.



Your exact words: "A more affluent China would want all the things we Westerners take for granted...."  China leads the USA in purchasing power parity terms.


mullokintyre said:


> What I said was the level of control of that technology allows the state to be as repressive as they like.



Everyone in China wanting access to western media uses a proxy server.  


mullokintyre said:


> Every phone must be approved by the state.
> Every app must be approved by the state.



Afghanistan does not yet have this capacity.


mullokintyre said:


> Every citizen has to earn CCP approved social credits before they can even travel.



It's the other way around.  Courts impose restrictions on offenders.  Many Chinese want harsher restrictions because it reduces scams, unpaid loans, false advertising and even people occupying reserved seats on a train.


mullokintyre said:


> AS to the Taliban not having the means to control the internet and mobile phones, what the hell do you think China does?



China has the technology and capability to do this, but not Afghanistan.


mullokintyre said:


> You have already said that China will step in and provide the money , technology , etc that the Taliban need. All they have to do is takeover whatever comms companies exist in Afganistan.



I know that China's BRI will be available to Afghanistan.  BRI leaves control in a country's hands, not China's.


mullokintyre said:


> When all forms of criticism are banned, what the hell do you expect them to say.



Your comments reflect a poor knowledge of what Chinese people actually think, and what they are able to do.

But there are other threads on China, so let's keep this one on topic.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 August 2021)

rederob said:


> I studied logic at university, so I know I did not use a straw man.
> 
> Your exact words: "A more affluent China would want all the things we Westerners take for granted...."  China leads the USA in purchasing power parity terms.
> 
> ...



And your comments show a level of arrogance that is quite astounding.
Mick


----------



## rederob (21 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And your comments show a level of arrogance that is quite astounding.
> Mick



I can back up all my points from personal experience and other evidence so why don't you do that instead of playing the man?


----------



## noirua (21 August 2021)

The United States both under President Trump and President Biden just want to cut the enormous expenditure in Afghanistan. The US dollar, in particular, has strengthened against all other currencies this past week and the GB£ in second place. The markets say it is a good move and don't care about personal suffering or for future loss of trillions of tonnes of rare earths particularly Lithium.

The Taliban do not have respect for China, Russia, or the USA. They accept all three will be willing participants on a business basis. That is how it works out in the end. As we know France and other nations supported the war of Independence against the British in America. All France ever got was the second prize of French-speaking Quebec in Canada.

When it comes to big mining expertise USA is first, Canada second, Russia third, and China fourth. It will cost billions of dollars to set up big long-term mining in Afghanistan. Very big mines can take 10 to 15 years to bring to full production with all the infrastructure involved.​


----------



## noirua (21 August 2021)

On the financial cost, Australia has spent close to $10 billion over the course of the war. That averages out to be about $500 million per year. In terms of the annual defence budget which currently sits at $42 billion per year, that figure is not particularly remarkable. It also pales compared to the jaw-dropping $US2 trillion spent by the United States.


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I agree that it is up to the Afhanis to determine their system of government, though I am not sure they got a lot of choice in the matter.
> As to America getting out of the middle east, that should alo include getting out of the Phillipines,  Japan,  Gunatanimo Bay which belongs to Cuba, Germany, and all the other overseas bases they hold.
> However, I wish I could share your optimism of the future.
> The expert thinking 20 years ago was that China would become liberal as it became a part of the Western influenced commercial trade mechanisms.
> ...



In fact it seems the opposite is happening. Western governments are becoming increasingly, and very quickly, more like the CCP.


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## mullokintyre (25 August 2021)

And to add to some of the delicous irony that eminates from the UN comes the news that convention states that the Taliban will likely inherit the various UN seats that the country had before the Taliban took over.
One of them is on The Commission for the Status of Women. 
I am sure the women of Afghanistan  will be thrilled by that.

From Singapore Daily news


> However, incoming governments, even those that were established in less-than-diplomatic methods, typically inherit their predecessor’s posts, the former ambassador added, noting rejection is rare.
> 
> “It’s unusual and hasn’t often been successful,” Bolton, a controversial figure who served as U.N. ambassador under former President George W. Bush and national security adviser to former President Donald Trump, continued. “I think the most likely outcome is the Taliban gets seated.”
> 
> ...




Mick


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## mullokintyre (26 August 2021)

From ABC NEWS


> There is "very, very credible" intelligence that militants are planning an imminent attack on those gathering at Kabul airport in an attempt to flee Afghanistan, British Armed Forces Minister James Heappey says.
> Late on Wednesday local time, Britain's foreign ministry advised people not to travel to the Kabul Hamid Karzai International Airport where thousands are waiting for flights out of the country ahead of an August 31 deadline when the United States and its allies will pull out their remaining troops.
> 
> Mr Heappey confirmed that intelligence of a possible suicide bomb attack by Islamic State militants had become "much firmer".
> ...



The same sort of credible  intelligence that thought the Taliban would take 90 days to take Kabul rather than the 9 days it did take them.
The same sort of credible  intelligence that could not  uncover the planned 9/11 attacks in the USA. 
The same sort of credible  intelligence that said Saddam Hussain had WMD's.
Their spooks have a total lack of credibility.
Mick


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## The Triangle (27 August 2021)

August 26, 2021 Afghanistan-Taliban news
					

At least 13 US service members and a number of Afghan civilians were killed in an attack at Kabul's airport, the Pentagon says. Follow here for the latest news.




					edition.cnn.com
				




The Americans are making a habit of leaving their own who serve to die for no reason.    How hard is it to secure an airport for a few months to evacuate your own people when you spend trillions on weapons and soldiers???

sleepy creepy joe - good job...


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## Knobby22 (27 August 2021)

The Triangle said:


> August 26, 2021 Afghanistan-Taliban news
> 
> 
> At least 13 US service members and a number of Afghan civilians were killed in an attack at Kabul's airport, the Pentagon says. Follow here for the latest news.
> ...



There is no way they can hold it unless they go back in with full force and restart the war.
Talban said out by the 28th, it will take two days to evacuate the American troops. Isis will continue sending suicide bombers.

Unlike the UK and US, Australia has already left, pretty much quit straight away as soon as the first bomb went off.
We knew we had people to get out but left it all too late.
I am really disappointed with lots of elements of this withdrawal.


----------



## DB008 (27 August 2021)

Your browser is not able to display this video.




NOW - Biden: “THEY gave me list here. The first person I was instructed to call on…”

JUST IN - Biden says he takes responsibility, then blames former President Trump for the current situation in #Afghanistan.



What a joke.


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## mullokintyre (27 August 2021)

DB008 said:


> View attachment 129484​
> 
> NOW - Biden: “THEY gave me list here. The first person I was instructed to call on…”
> 
> ...



After the fall of Kabul Biden found time to call  the  leaders of Britain Germany, Canada, and even spain .
But nothing from  the US for Scomo.
Just shows how important the US admin thinks its relationship with Australia really is.
Bet John Howard regrets his deputy Sheriff comment now.
US will dump anyone and everyone when it suits.
Next time we get asked to join the coalition of the willing, we can tell em to F off.
mick


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## noirua (29 August 2021)

Unknown to many is that people are chartering their own planes to Kabul to pickup animals and possessions.








						Afghanistan: Pen Farthing 'on his way home with his dogs and cats' after charter plane picks them up from Kabul
					

British troops loaded up around 200 dogs and cats on the plane, which landed in the Afghan capital on Saturday afternoon.




					news.sky.com


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## noirua (29 August 2021)




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## basilio (30 August 2021)

The US targeted a drone strike on a vehicle carrying suicide bombers to the airport. The strike was also announced by the Taliban. They are clearly supporting US intelligence on stopping these attacks and are supporting if not directing  the strikes.

The last attack killed 180 Afgans as well as Taliban soldiers and US marines.









						US drone strike targets vehicle with suspected ISIS-K suicide bombers aboard in Kabul
					

The strike hit a vehicle carrying "multiple" suicide bombers before they could mount an attack at Kabul's international airport, according to US military officials.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

Who would trust US intelligence?
How do we know it was ISIS suicide bombers?
Did they have labels on them?
The video footage shows a damaged car and house, and looks as if the drone strike on the car when it was still at the house.If it was fulkl of suicide bombers, you would think that the explosives in the car would have gone up as well.
Could well end up like the fake footage from the gas strike in Douma that US intelligence  says was an ISIS gas attack in Syria.
I am very wary of anything coming from so called US intelligence.
Mick


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## moXJO (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> After the fall of Kabul Biden found time to call  the  leaders of Britain Germany, Canada, and even spain .
> But nothing from  the US for Scomo.
> Just shows how important the US admin thinks its relationship with Australia really is.
> Bet John Howard regrets his deputy Sheriff comment now.
> ...



They were quick to fill the void when China targeted our trade. We should back away from these war mongering idiots. Guaranteed they will find another war in the next 4 years. Looking like a rerun on the 'war on terror'.
Scomo needs to sit the hell down and dislodge his nose from America's ass.


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## moXJO (30 August 2021)

basilio said:


> The strike was also announced by the Taliban. They are clearly supporting US intelligence on stopping these attacks and are supporting if not directing  the strikes.



Taliban and Isis are enemies Isis wants to grab power where it can. I suspect this was a reason we saw so many weapons left by the US. As I said previously " I suspect a deal was done".


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## basilio (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Who would trust US intelligence?
> How do we know it was ISIS suicide bombers?
> Did they have labels on them?
> The video footage shows a damaged car and house, and looks as if the drone strike on the car when it was still at the house.If it was fulkl of suicide bombers, you would think that the explosives in the car would have gone up as well.
> ...



Give us a break.

Did you read the story Mull ?*The car did go up as well. It was full of explosives*. The US and the Taliban are hand in glove trying to get the US out of Afganistan with a minimum of fuss. This is one occasion when both parties are in lock step to destroy a very dangerous mutual enemy.


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## moXJO (30 August 2021)

This guy has huge balls. Just threw his life away for justice. Have to respect after 17 years of service and walking away with nothing. He has already been relieved of duty.


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## moXJO (30 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Give us a break.
> 
> Did you read the story Mull ?*The car did go up as well. It was full of explosives*. The US and the Taliban are hand in glove trying to get the US out of Afganistan with a minimum of fuss. This is one occasion when both parties are in lock step to destroy a very dangerous mutual enemy.



You do remember the videos wikileaks posted back in the day of military engagements with suspected terrorists?

Media doesn't mean sht.


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## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Give us a break.
> 
> Did you read the story Mull ?*The car did go up as well. It was full of explosives*. The US and the Taliban are hand in glove trying to get the US out of Afganistan with a minimum of fuss. This is one occasion when both parties are in lock step to destroy a very dangerous mutual enemy.



The story says one thing, the Vision says another. I read the story, I looked at the vision. The two don't add up.
The car in the vision looks like its been burned, but it does not look like it was full of explosives.
Unless the Vision is another car that was not related, but I can only go on what I see. 
Why put the vision in the story if it is not the car that was targeted?
One might expect that a car full of explosives hit by  drone rocket would be pretty much destroyed.
If indeed the car was hit in a driveway, it would explain the deaths of the civilians that were quoted in the article.
Look and read with your eyes open.
Mick


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## sptrawler (30 August 2021)

As for brokering a deal, wasn't it Trump that brokered a deal with the Taliban, due to the pressure from the media and general public wanting to get the troops out of the middle east?
Trump didn't want a rapid removal of the troops, but an orderly withdrawl. He still gets the blame, for this Biden fiasco. 🤣








						Taliban dismiss Donald Trump’s Afghanistan strategy as nothing new
					

The Taliban dismissed Donald Trump's strategy for Afghanistan as vague and "nothing new" today after the US president cleared the way for thousands more American troops to be sent to the war-torn country.




					www.financialexpress.com
				



From the* 2017 *article:
_Trump backtracked from his promise to rapidly end America’s longest war in his first formal address to the nation as commander-in-chief late Monday, though he did not offer specifics.* He said he had concluded “the consequences of a rapid exit are both predictable and unacceptable”, leaving a vacuum that terrorists “would instantly fill.”* A senior Taliban commander told AFP that Trump was just perpetuating the “arrogant behaviour” of previous presidents such as George Bush. “He is just wasting American soldiers._

And from *2019*








						The breakdown of US–Taliban talks buys time to reset the Afghanistan strategy | The Strategist
					

US President Donald Trump announced on Saturday that he had called off talks with the Taliban at Camp David. The meeting had probably been arranged to finalise a deal for the start of a US ...




					www.aspistrategist.org.au
				



_From the article:
Trump will have to wait to bring the US troops home. He has sought peace, but with an enemy that only wants to demonstrate US weakness. That’s a mistake the Taliban will wish they hadn’t made, but for which the Afghan people will be grateful._


Well all the Taliban had to do was wait until Trump was gone, then wipe their feet all over the U.S.


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## basilio (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The story says one thing, the Vision says another. I read the story, I looked at the vision. The two don't add up.
> The car in the vision looks like its been burned, but it does not look like it was full of explosives.
> Unless the Vision is another car that was not related, but I can only go on what I see.
> Why put the vision in the story if it is not the car that was targeted?
> ...




Point taken. There is more information and pictures about this incident. 
The story in The Guardian shows a totally destroyed car. This wasn't the one shown in the ABC story.








						Reports children killed in US attack on suicide bombers – as it happened
					

Reports of ‘powerful explosion’ thought to have been rocket attack in Afghan capital, following warnings from US of ‘specific, credible’ threats




					www.theguardian.com


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## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

The wreckage shown in the second last photograph has a caption of a destroyed vehicle inside a house.
Its certainly mangled, whatever it was.
If you look at the photograph, it would appear that the wreckage to be just to the right of the burnt out car that was in the Video. 
The house surroundings appear very similar. 
Once again, it just doesn't add up. 
Perhaps the remains of the car were dragged into the house, but it does not explain the damage to the other car and the house.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

Now that I look at it, the photo in the Guardian is actually of the same car as shown. The wreckage to the right  may or may not be a another car,  or some parts of the same car who knows.
The rear of the tailgate looks like it has been hit with either bullets or bits of shrapnel.
Either way, its not that of a vehicle  full of explosives and hit with a rocket.
And also, look at the trees to the right of the mangled bits of wreckage. Surely they would also be destroyed.
It just does not add up for my liking.
Mick


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## basilio (30 August 2021)

*The Good, the Bad and The Ugly.*   US,  The Taliban and ISIS.
Thoughtful background on how the US and the Taliban have worked together to defeat a common enemy.

Opinion | What ISIS-K Means for Afghanistan​The hard-to-kill insurgency behind the bombing poses a huge challenge for the Taliban—and a puzzle for American efforts to keep the country stable.









						Opinion | What ISIS-K Means for Afghanistan
					

The hard-to-kill insurgency behind the bombing poses a huge challenge for the Taliban—and a puzzle for American efforts to keep the country stable.




					www.politico.com


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## noirua (30 August 2021)

Afghanistan: Smoke rises over Kabul after rocket strike
					

A rocket hit a residential area in Kabul. An Afghan police chief, quoted by AP news agency, has confirmed a child died after the incident.




					news.sky.com


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## DB008 (30 August 2021)

.​


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## IFocus (30 August 2021)

DB you forgot the spare parts supply = 0


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## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

I suppose the US  would not have been so sneaky as to place self destruct options on some of the objects to be activated at their discretion??
Mick


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## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

And If they did, here is an example as to why they should be setting them off right now.
The Lynch Mob

Mick


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## moXJO (1 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I suppose the US  would not have been so sneaky as to place self destruct options on some of the objects to be activated at their discretion??
> Mick



I honestly think it was left so they could battle Isis. Better Taliban do it then our troops. It was all a little to easy for Taliban to waltz in.


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## moXJO (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> I honestly think it was left so they could battle Isis. Better Taliban do it then our troops. It was all a little to easy for Taliban to waltz in.



But then again. Perhaps Biden and his generals are just the biggest idiots in history. And that is the high % play. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...es-talibans-new-us-made-war-chest-2021-08-19/


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## bellenuit (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> I honestly think it was left so they could battle Isis. Better Taliban do it then our troops. It was all a little to easy for Taliban to waltz in.




From what I have been reading, they made most equipment that they had in their possession and were leaving behind inoperable, except for some air safety equipment that they left at the airport. Equipment that the Afghanistan army had obviously fell into Taliban hands when they army abandoned their posts.


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## moXJO (1 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> From what I have been reading, they made most equipment that they had in their possession and were leaving behind inoperable, except for some air safety equipment that they left at the airport. Equipment that the Afghanistan army had obviously fell into Taliban hands when they army abandoned their posts.



A lot of it will fall into disrepair pretty quickly. However you have China right next door. It was still operating (from guys on the ground). US scuttled a lot of its software from the vehicles/helicopters. 

It's a huge amount if Isis managed to grab it.


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## bellenuit (4 September 2021)

*IMO, although the withdrawal was chaotic, at the end of the day the withdrawal cost the lives of just 13 US soldiers. Sad, but hardly a disaster considering they were trying to extricate from a region where there were two enemies fighting them. The Afghan army would have collapsed like it did whether it was Trump or Biden in charge and the loss of US armoury held by the Afghan army would have been just as inevitable because of their complete surrender. Without the Afghan army to maintain order for the duration of the US withdrawal and evacuation of Afghans who supported the US, they did well to get as many as they had out with so little loss of US soldiers lives.*​​Former Trump officials praise Biden for carrying out 'Trump-Biden withdrawal' from Afghanistan​








						Former Trump officials praise Biden for carrying out 'Trump-Biden withdrawal' from Afghanistan: ANALYSIS
					

Withdrawing U.S. forces from Afghanistan became an obsession for then-President Donald Trump, ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl reports.




					abcnews.go.com


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## moXJO (4 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> *IMO, although the withdrawal was chaotic, at the end of the day the withdrawal cost the lives of just 13 US soldiers. Sad, but hardly a disaster considering they were trying to extricate from a region where there were two enemies fighting them. The Afghan army would have collapsed like it did whether it was Trump or Biden in charge and the loss of US armoury held by the Afghan army would have been just as inevitable because of their complete surrender. Without the Afghan army to maintain order for the duration of the US withdrawal and evacuation of Afghans who supported the US, they did well to get as many as they had out with so little loss of US soldiers lives.*​​Former Trump officials praise Biden for carrying out 'Trump-Biden withdrawal' from Afghanistan​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Media protecting Biden again.

Trump had negotiated with the Taliban on withdrawal. God only knows what Biden had planned. Good movie on the situation during Obama era "war machine" with Brad Pitt (same guys as big short).

Trump was the first one to get it right, regardless of motive. He heard one ex general on fox (I think) talking about how the US should not be there. And he did get the US out of a lot of pointless wars. 

Biden is an establishment slug. Worse is that he was considered the "buffoon" of the Democrat party. Living up to his image.


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## bellenuit (4 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Trump was the first one to get it right, regardless of motive. He heard one ex general on fox (I think) talking about how the US should not be there. And he did get the US out of a lot of pointless wars.




Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden all said they wanted to end the Afghan war, so he wasn’t the first to get it right in that respect. Biden was the one who ended the war, not Trump, so you can’t give kudos to Trump for that.

What Trump did do was make a clean exit next to impossible by greatly reducing the number of US ground forces there and agreeing to the release of 4,200 Taliban fighters from prison, bolstering their strength and making an Afghan army surrender more likely.

Trump boasted that he made it impossible for Biden NOT to withdraw, but failed to do it himself on his watch.


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## mullokintyre (4 September 2021)

Chanel 9 has a given the Taliban a free  medium for propaganda.
Who needs cyber warfare when your own media give airtime to a bunch of terrorists.

In an "exclusive Interview"  the Taliban have said the 41 Australian soldiers who were killed in Afghamistan all died in vain.
And to top it off, they reckon that 
Australians are the worst human rights violators
Australia committed some of the worst and the brutal kind of human rights violations
They should be prosecuted as per the humanitarian law. 

Channel nine news
Not surprisingly, the other media orgs are piling it on channel 9.
Channel 7 and the Pm has also given them a blast.
There might be a bit of fallout from this one.
Mick


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## moXJO (4 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden all said they wanted to end the Afghan war, so he wasn’t the first to get it right in that respect. Biden was the one who ended the war, not Trump, so you can’t give kudos to Trump for that.
> 
> What Trump did do was make a clean exit next to impossible by greatly reducing the number of US ground forces there and agreeing to the release of 4,200 Taliban fighters from prison, bolstering their strength and making an Afghan army surrender more likely.
> 
> Trump boasted that he made it impossible for Biden NOT to withdraw, but failed to do it himself on his watch.



Biden had a plan laid out and couldn't even get that right. Obama raised troop numbers by 40000 then made it infinitely worse by opening his trap and giving away key details. After  one of the most Idiotic plans ever.

Trump had negotiated with the Taliban. Unsurprisingly he backed the right generals plan in the end. He set the wheels in motion and fired those who couldn't all wouldn't.

 Biden came from a government that was a big part of the problem. And he continues the p1ssweak stances of Obama.


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## moXJO (4 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Chanel 9 has a given the Taliban a free  medium for propaganda.
> Who needs cyber warfare when your own media give airtime to a bunch of terrorists.
> 
> In an "exclusive Interview"  the Taliban have said the 41 Australian soldiers who were killed in Afghamistan all died in vain.
> ...



Taliban is wining the propaganda war.


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## bellenuit (4 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Trump had negotiated with the Taliban. Unsurprisingly he backed the right generals plan in the end. He set the wheels in motion and fired those who couldn't all wouldn't.




It's easy to assume Trump would have extricated the US from Afghanistan flawlessly when in fact he had done little and failed to end the war during his watch. There is little evidence from what has transpired to suggest it would have been different under Trump. But knowing how Trump has acted in relation to other crises during has watch would suggest he would have botched it up as he did the others. We have only to look at his COVID response, putting the US close to the top of the world ranking of deaths/million, a disgrace for a country with the resources it has, and his weak endorsement of vaccines currently when it is his supporters that are suffering most. His dealings with North Korea which elevated the status of Kim but achieved nothing in relation to nuclear disarmament. His weakening of NATO and his ambivalence towards China where the biggest losers were US farmers. His attempted coup on US democracy. One could go on.

Nobody is suggesting Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan was not without problems, but it could hardly have been different considering the cards he had been dealt. Trump officials have praised Biden's efforts, but you just dismiss that as press protection. It's easy for Trump to be the hero when he didn't do anything but claim how great he would have been if he still had been in charge. Even the Right's own Anne Coulter has commended Biden for doing what Trump said he would do, but didn't do.

Trump is all hubris but fails when called to action.


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## mullokintyre (11 September 2021)

A bit more to the story on the US drone strike.
From New York Times and NBC NEWS


 U.S. officials said a Reaper drone followed a car for hours and then fired based on evidence it was carrying explosives. 
But in-depth video analysis and interviews at the site cast doubt on that account.


> "Military officials said they did not know the identity of the car’s driver when the drone fired, but deemed him suspicious because of how they interpreted his activities that day, saying that he possibly visited an ISIS safe house and, at one point, loaded what they thought could be explosives into the car."
> 
> In reality, *they were filling water bottles*.
> _Times reporting has identified the driver as Zemari Ahmadi, a longtime worker for a U.S. aid group. The evidence, including extensive interviews with family members, co-workers and witnesses, suggests that his travels that day actually involved transporting colleagues to and from work. And *an analysis of video feeds showed that what the military may have seen was Mr. Ahmadi and a colleague loading canisters of water into his trunk to bring home to his family.*
> ...





> In a Monday briefing, Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby said that Washington was "not in a position to dispute" reports that its drone strike against its ISIS-K target caused civilian casualties, and that the U.S. was investigating.





> Malika and two other toddlers were the youngest family members killed, along with Ahmadi's nephews Arwin, 7, and Benyamin, 6, and Zemari's two other sons, Zamir, 20, and Faisal, 16, Ahmadi said.
> 
> Zemari was a technical engineer for Nutrition and Education International, a nonprofit working to address malnutrition based in Pasadena, California.
> 
> Just a day before his death, he had been helping to prepare and deliver soy-based meals to women and children at refugee camps in Kabul, Steven Kwon, president of NEI, told NBC News in an email.



Collateral damage they used to call it.
Mick


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## noirua (13 September 2021)

The meaning of 'Taliban' in English - and the militant group's origins explained
					

The word Taliban means 'students' or 'seekers' in Pashto, one of the two official languages of Afghanistan




					inews.co.uk


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## mullokintyre (18 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> A bit more to the story on the US drone strike.
> From New York Times and NBC NEWS
> 
> 
> ...



And although its taken a little time, the US has finally admitted they screwed up on the drone hit on a car they said was full of explosives and suicide bombers.
They basically killed one of their own workers along with his kids.
from ABC News


> A US drone strike in Kabul last month killed as many 10 civilians, including seven children, a senior US general says.
> 
> Family accounts suggest Zemerai Ahmadi's car was struck by a Hellfire missile just as he pulled into the driveway.
> 
> ...



As I said earlier, the US military and intelligence community  will see it as collateral damage.
Mick


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## basilio (18 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> A bit more to the story on the US drone strike.
> From New York Times and NBC NEWS
> 
> 
> ...




Absolutely tragic about the drone strikes. And there were certainly many more such mistakes made across the thousands of strikes in various theaters of war.

Few points
1) Big ticks to the New York Times/NBC for running down the story and highlighting the horror of the event
2) Thank heavens the military also acknowledged the SNAFU.  In theory they had no choice...
3) This makes a change from past US government/military response to drone murders.  There are still people sitting in solitary for realising information about shocking  attacks  on civilians.

And on the other hand there are  Black Hawk contracters who killed 14 Iraqi civilians  and wounded 17 others in a mad fire fight. They were convicted of various crimes -- and the pardoned by Donald Trump. Great messaging









						Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians
					

Footage of July 2007 attack made public as Pentagon identifies website as threat to national security




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Shock And Dismay After Trump Pardons Blackwater Guards Who Killed 14 Iraqi Civilians
					

"We were surprised that the American president issued a decision to pardon these criminals, murderers and thugs," says an Iraqi man who was shot in the 2007 massacre at Baghdad's Nisour Square.




					www.npr.org


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## moXJO (18 September 2021)

basilio said:


> .
> 
> And on the other hand there are  Black Hawk contracters who killed 14 Iraqi civilians  and wounded 17 others in a mad fire fight.



Blackwater


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## mullokintyre (21 September 2021)

It seems that the US not only gifted the Taliban weapons, vehicles and aircraft, but they also gifted them a Navy.



Mick


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## Sean K (7 December 2021)

Difficult time for Afghan vets at the moment, watching the country fall apart and the Taliban go back to their old games of summary executions and the like, then stealing food aid for the people. This Royal Commission will be difficult for a lot of people. 

The United Nations really needed to step up in the transition to Taliban rule and there should have been a blue hat security force put in place as part of the handover the the Taliban. Not sure if that was ever a discussion, but it's bewildering if it wasn't.


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## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

If there is any organisation that needs a thorough independent investigation, it is the United Nations IMO.
It comes across to me as a self regulating, self serving, gravy train. All these funded organisation should have a thorough review by an independent body on a regular basis, just my opinion, but they seem to carry a lot of respect that at times is shown to be misplaced.


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## mullokintyre (14 December 2021)

true to form, no one will be  charged over the srewed up raid on Afganistan civilians.
From ABC News


> The Pentagon says it will not discipline any US troops over a drone strike that killed 10 civilians, including seven children, in Kabul on August 29.
> 
> The US has already admitted the attack, which came as foreign forces tried to evacuate Kabul airport in the face of the Taliban takeover, was "a tragic mistake".
> 
> ...



No soldiers will be disciplined, so that means none at the top have to be disciplined either.
a goat covered in an enormous scape.
Mick


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## IFocus (14 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> true to form, no one will be  charged over the srewed up raid on Afganistan civilians.
> From ABC News
> 
> No soldiers will be disciplined, so that means none at the top have to be disciplined either.
> ...




1st casualty of war is the truth... and the last it seems


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## noirua (23 February 2022)

Afghanistan embassy expresses gratitude to India for providing humanitarian aid of 50,000 tonnes of wheat - Articles
					

New Delhi [India], February 22 (ANI): Afghanistan embassy in New Delhi on Tuesday expressed its gratitude to India for giving the first consignment of humanitarian aid of 50,000 tonnes of wheat to the war-ravaged nation at a time when the country is facing major food insecurity.




					www.zee5.com


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