# John McCain



## 2020hindsight (2 March 2008)

Just to balance the Obama thread ok?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

Fighter/Tough/Determined/Disrespectful of Authority/Leader of Mavericks



> McCain .. nicknames "Punk" and "McNasty" due to his combative and fiery disposition (wrestling . boxing) , he enjoyed and cultivated that tough guy image;
> 
> He did not take well to those of higher rank arbitrarily wielding power over him – "It was bull****, and I resented the hell out of it"[15] – ..At 5 foot 7 inches and 127 pounds (1.70 m and 58 kg), he competed as a lightweight boxer ..was fearless and "didn't have a reverse gear," as he later put it....




Only Average Academic



> ...Despite his difficulties, he later wrote that he never wavered in his desire to show his father and family that he was of the same mettle as his naval forbears. ..graduated from the Naval Academy in 1958; he was sixth from the bottom in class rank, 894th out of 899.
> 
> He began as a subpar flier, with limited patience for studying aviation manuals. .... During a practice run in Texas, his engine quit while landing, and his aircraft crashed into Corpus Christi Bay, though he escaped without major injuries
> 
> ...




An honest comment about what was happening with napalm bombing in Vietnam



> ….McCain was almost killed in action on July 29, ... a Zuni rocket from an F-4 Phantom was accidentally fired across the carrier's deck. ... . ignited the fuel and knocked two bombs loose.[41] McCain later said, "I thought my aircraft exploded. Flames were everywhere."[39] McCain escaped from his jet .... The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors, injured scores others, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and took 24 hours to control. A day or two after the conflagration, McCain told New York Times ..in Saigon that, "It's a difficult thing to say. But now that I've seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I'm not so sure that I want to drop any more of that stuff on North Vietnam."




Yet during imprisonment, a predictable reaction to more bombing



> ...... Back at the "Hanoi Hilton",  McCain and the other POWs cheered the intense, Hanoi-focused, B-52-led U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972 – whose explosions lit the night sky and shook the walls of the camp, and whose daily orders were issued by McCain's father, knowing his son was in the vicinity – as a forceful measure to force North Vietnam to terms.[57][78]
> 
> ……Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years.




On marital fidelity :-



> 1965, McCain married Shepp in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (she had married and then divorced one of his classmates)
> ……….
> Upon his return to the US, McCain was reunited with his wife Carol, who had suffered her own crippling, near-death ordeal during his captivity, due to an automobile accident in December 1969 that left her facing months of operations and physical therapy;[81] by the time he saw her again she was four inches shorter, on crutches, and substantially heavier.
> 
> ...




His disrespect for formal govt procedures  (but who knows if it is really attributable to an inner hawke?). 



> in 1977 McCain was appointed the Navy's liaison to the U.S. Senate.
> 
> ... McCain played a key behind-the-scenes role in gaining congressional financing for a new supercarrier against the wishes of the Carter administration and Navy Secretary W. Graham Claytor Jr.[91][82]




Political maverick



> McCain’s politics at this point were mainly in line with President Ronald Reagan, .... his vote against a resolution allowing President Reagan to keep U.S. Marines deployed .. in Lebanon, on the grounds that he "[did] not foresee obtainable objectives in Lebanon," would seem prescient (foreknowledge) after the catastrophic Beirut barracks bombing a month later;[89] this vote would also start his national media reputation as a political maverick.[89]
> ……….
> In 1986 he broke ranks again in voting to successfully override Reagan's veto of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act that imposed sanctions against South Africa.




Sounds like he’s against racism - and for giving the indigenous Americans a fairer go



> ..McCain got the Indian Economic Development Act of 1985 signed into law.[101]
> ……..
> He often supported the Native American agenda, advocating self-governance and sovereignty, ... "Never deceived them," McCain once said, "They have been deceived too many times in the last 200 years."




Doesn’t like the Christian right. 



> McCain butted heads with Moral Majority co-founder Paul Weyrich, who was challenging (his friend) Tower regarding alleged heavy drinking and extramarital affairs.[111] Thus began McCain's difficult relationship with the Christian right, as he would later write that Weyrich was "a pompous self-serving son of a bitch."




….. the keating 5  (4 democrats and McCain) - survives corruption allegations



> .. real estate venture failed, leaving many broke. Federal regulators ultimately filed a $1.1 billion civil racketeering and fraud ...
> 
> In the end, none of the senators were convicted of any crime, although McCain was rebuked by the Senate Ethics Committee for exercising "poor judgment" in intervening with the federal regulators on Keating's behalf.[119]
> 
> .... McCain was not dismissed from the case because without him, the investigation would have solely been against Democrats.




Prepared to work with Democrats (more of that maverick tendency)



> ………….McCain also branched out and worked with Democratic senators. He was a member of the 1991–1993 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, chaired by Democrat and fellow Vietnam War veteran John Kerry, ..more visits to Vietnam ....After many years of disliking Kerry due to his actions with Vietnam Veterans Against the War,[126] McCain developed "unbounded respect and admiration" for Kerry during the hearings.




Doesn’t like corruption in campaign financing (just the problem NSW has at the moment) 



> Having survived the Keating Five scandal, McCain made attacking the corrupting influence of big money on American politics his signature issue. ...worked on campaign finance reform; their McCain-Feingold bill would attempt to put limits on "soft money", funds that corporations, unions, and other organizations could donate to political parties, which would then be funneled to political candidates in circumvention of "hard money" donation limits.[103] From the start, McCain and Feingold's efforts were opposed by large money interests, by incumbents in both parties, by those who felt spending limits impinged on free political speech, and by those who wanted to lessen the power of what they saw as media bias




Nor pork barrelling



> ……..McCain also attacked pork barrel spending within Congress, believing that the practice did not contribute to the greater national interest.[103] Towards this end he was instrumental in pushing through approval of the Line Item Veto Act of 1996,[103] which gave the president the power to veto individual items of pork. Although this was one of McCain's biggest Senate victories,[103] the effect was short-lived as the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the act unconstitutional in 1998.[




Hates the tobacco industry



> …McCain used his chairmanship to take on the tobacco industry in 1998, proposing legislation that would increase cigarette taxes in order to fund anti-smoking campaigns and reduce the number of teenage smokers, increase research money on health studies, and help states pay for smoking-related health care costs. The industry spent some $40–50 million in national advertising in response;[141][103] while McCain's bill had the support of the Clinton administration and many public health groups, most Republican senators opposed it, stating it would create an unwieldy new bureaucracy




The fight with Bush in the 2000 primaries 



> On February 1, 2000, he won the primary with 49 percent of the vote to Bush's 30 percent, and suddenly was the celebrity of the hour. ..McCain became Bush's only serious opponent. Analysts predicted that a McCain victory in the crucial South Carolina primary might give his insurgency campaign unstoppable momentum;  a degree of fear and panic crept into not only the Bush campaign[147] but also the Republican establishment and movement conservatism.




continued


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## 2020hindsight (2 March 2008)

continued:-



> The 2000 battle between Bush and McCain for South Carolina has entered American political lore as one of the nastiest, dirtiest, and most brutal ever.
> 
> (McCain lost to Bush who had to appeal to the religious right)




so much for this old history... Sounds like
a) you'd be a brave man to guess which way he would jump, 
b) or to write him off, 
c) a rough diamond, 
d) doesn't sound like he's a hypocrite, 
e) one tough dude.


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## 2020hindsight (2 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> c) a rough diamond, ..



not sure if the emphasis is on "rough" or on "diamond" 

(PS I'm no expert on the man - ok? -  just quoting wikipedia here. - and only halfway through that article. )


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## 2020hindsight (24 March 2008)

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iNxTApa2sQRu0Xx99P3jt2bEXw7gD8VJLLE00


> McCain: I learned from Keating Five case
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) ”” Sen. John McCain's ethics entanglement with a wealthy banker ultimately convicted of swindling investors was such a disturbing, formative experience in his political career that he compares the scandal in some ways to the five years he was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.
> 
> "*I faced in Vietnam, at times, very real threats to life and limb," McCain told The Associated Press. "But while my sense of honor was tested in prison, it was not questioned. During the Keating inquiry, it was, and I regretted that very much."*



gee whiz, how do you link - in one answer - being a POW , and being  investigated for corrupt / negligent behaviour  



> In his early days as a freshman senator, McCain was known for accepting contributions from Charles Keating Jr., flying to the banker's home in the Bahamas on company planes and taking up Keating's cause with U.S. financial regulators as they investigated him.
> 
> The Keating Five was the derisive name given McCain and four Democratic senators who were defendants in a congressional ethics investigation of their connections to Keating. McCain is the only one still in the Senate. They were accused of trying to intimidate regulators on behalf of Keating, a real estate developer in Arizona and owner of Lincoln Savings and Loan based in Irvine, Calif.


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## The Ferret (24 March 2008)

I like the guy. Everytime I hear him speak he actually says something meaningful, minus the cliches, minus the spin, minus the gloss. He comes across as genuine and WYSIWYG.

He is not liked much by the conservative right of the Republican party. He is more centrist (but still right of course) than others. He seems quite progressive despite his age and background.

I think he would make an excellent President.


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## Julia (24 March 2008)

The Ferret said:


> I like the guy. Everytime I hear him speak he actually says something meaningful, minus the cliches, minus the spin, minus the gloss. He comes across as genuine and WYSIWYG.
> 
> He is not liked much by the conservative right of the Republican party. He is more centrist (but still right of course) than others. He seems quite progressive despite his age and background.
> 
> I think he would make an excellent President.




Are you happy with his philosophy re Iraq?


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## The Ferret (25 March 2008)

Julia said:


> Are you happy with his philosophy re Iraq?




Entirely....


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## noirua (25 March 2008)

Cindy Lou Hensley McCain (b. 29/7/1953), second wife of Senator John McCain, who helped him reach his present position with the money and influence of the Hensley Family. A Great Lady who has achieved much in her life, but also branded a prescription drug addict, thief and vindictive women:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Hensley_McCain
http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/John_McCain_s_wife_Cindy_from_wikipedia


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

McCain comes across here as a right lulu  

 Vietnam Veterans Against McCain

 John McCain Losing His Cool


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2008)

John McCain Lies at Fox Debate and is EXPOSED by Ron Paul

you like his little ditty at the end?
sung to beachboys song " Bar Bar Bar  Bar-bar-baranne"
"bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran"

yeah John - real funny.  
Just the man the world needs at the top.


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## 2020hindsight (13 April 2008)

The more I see of this bloke the less I like him.  

Try watching those youtubes in post #9 

and then tell me 
a) you'd trust the man, or 
b) that you'd accept his word (were he President) about going into another war somewhere, Iran maybe. 

or post #1, where he happily ignored the president and the Navy Secretary to finance a new supercarrier... 



> in 1977 McCain was appointed the Navy's liaison to the U.S. Senate. ... McCain played a key behind-the-scenes role in gaining congressional financing for a new supercarrier against the wishes of the Carter administration and Navy Secretary W. Graham Claytor Jr.




the man would be a loose bull / cannon in a world china shop. (imo)

PS what's he got to hide about releasing documents about the MIA files for instance?  - did he (postwar) threaten the Vietnamese that if they disclosed details of his time as prisoner then they would regret it?. 

Those vets and authors and investigators put up a pretty convincing case that he's not to be trusted (imo)
Strikes me he'd resort to what so many of these top echelon "leaders" do and claim " national security /  secret", and to hell with freedom of information - and/or just proper honest information about anything for that matter


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## gfresh (13 April 2008)

Couldn't agree more.. I don't trust him at all.. in fact, I sense something almost 'wrong' about him. Nothing concrete, maybe just that sixth sense you have about some people from that look in their eye, demeaner, or the like. 

Old man clinging to old values and old rheotoric, who will be required to steer the United States out of one of the most  difficult period's they may have ever faced in modern times - economic, and strategic.. He may actually turn out to be just as bad as George Bush, and dare I say it, even worse so! If American's vote this man in they may be well regretting it soon enough - ala. GWB.


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## agro (13 April 2008)

he has arnie and Stallone behind him so he must be good


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## Julia (13 April 2008)

2020 (Now hold your breath here) re John McCain I agree with everything you have said.  Yes, that's right.  I do actually agree with you 100%.

I don't actually like any of the three candidates:  McCain for the reasons you have outlined, Hillary because she seems to have such a precarious relationship with the truth, and Obama because he lacks experience to go with his impressive rhetoric.


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## 2020hindsight (13 April 2008)

Julia
gr8 we agree on something -
as far as the three candidates go..
a) you only get three choices - eenie, meenie, or miney.  - there is no moe ok. 
b) of all those qualities, I find the least offensive to be the "inexperience" bit - especially as Obama can choose an experienced running mate.  Also I would put the emphasis on "impressive" (and brilliantly so) -  rather than "rhetoric".
c) I also recall various politicians winning in Australia - including Bob Hawke who had the luck to win just before Australia won the America's cup, granted - and the reality of that phrase "change the govt, change the nation" was tangible in my opinion.  Therefore I am perfectly prepared to believe that a clean and clear headed motivator like Obama will achieve miles more than Hilary or McCain could do, with all their alleged experience, and in their wildest dreams.  (imo)  

http://www.tribstar.com/opinion_columns/local_story_103000837.html

PS be fascinating to see who Obama chooses for a running mate yes?


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## skint (13 April 2008)

Hi Julia and 2bobs,

Our own most experienced leaders have been Joh, Menzies and Howard. So much for experience. Another Republican, let alone a right-wing war-monger in his dotage would be disastrous. The democrats over time have consistently had a greater social conscience , and god knows America needs it. Hard to glean policy through all the non-substantive ra-ra, but from what I've seen and read to date, I hope Obama gets the guernsey. Be good to see Al Gore stick his hand up for the Vice-Presidency. Failing that I think Kev should consider "annexing" the States, and perhaps selling it China.


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## 2020hindsight (13 April 2008)

skint said:


> .1. I hope Obama gets the guernsey. Be good to see Al Gore stick his hand up for the Vice-Presidency.
> 
> 2. Failing that I think Kev should consider "annexing" the States, and perhaps selling it to China.



1. Obama and Gore? - lol - chalk and cheese in the oratory stakes yes. ?
Then again, Gore will make Obama's speeches sound even better you reckon.  

2. gee skint - not biting, lol.  I get into enough arguments around here.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 April 2008)

A good candidate, a great person, he'll be a worthy president.

gg


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## Buster (13 April 2008)

Julia said:


> I don't actually like any of the three candidates:  McCain for the reasons you have outlined, Hillary because she seems to have such a precarious relationship with the truth, and Obama because he lacks experience to go with his impressive rhetoric.




Not much to worry about then Jules,  I'm tipping Gore will be the next President, with Obama as vice.. *Skint* alluded to it in an earlier post, but he's on the money!! I think you'll find Gore has been planning this for some time, and you'll note he has been raising his profile gradually over the last 12 - 18 months or so.. 

I wasn't too fussed about the next 'Big Dog' as I'm just happy to see the end of Bush.. but the more we see of each of the 'currently' running candidates the less I like the look of them, although they've got a tough job trying to appeal to each and every facet of the poplace..  Look forward to Gore wiping the floor with them.. 

Regards,

Buster


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## 2020hindsight (14 April 2008)

http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm

obama 10/11 (better than evens) = $1.91
mccain 69/50 = $2.38
hillary 11/2 = $6.50

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=273777&highlight=betting#post273777

For interest ..

21 Mar (bit over three weeks ago):- 
Barack Obama 11-10  = $2.10
John McCain 44-27 = $2.63
Hillary Clinton 19-5 = $4.80

10 Mar  (about 5 weeks ago) :- 
Barack Obama 10-10 (= evens) = $2.00
John McCain 42-24 (= 7-4) = $2.75
Hillary Clinton 18-4 (= 9-2) = $5.50

Summary - Barack and McCain tightening in last 3 weeks, Hillary's odds lengthening


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## 2020hindsight (14 April 2008)

the other thing lol
the bookies margin has also improved ( for them ) - presumably as people get more interested (?)

12 Apr 9.7%
21 Mar 6.5%
10 Mar 4.5%  

btw, I think Raph Nader is $101.  
and Gore is off the books.
http://www.betusa.com/odds/next_us_president_betting_754.html

Maybe McCain (and/or Hillary) should get Michael Jackson for a running mate - to win back some of Obama's youthful support.


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## skint (14 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm
> 
> obama 10/11 (better than evens) = $1.91
> mccain 69/50 = $2.38
> ...




Centrebet still has Obama - $1.80
                          McCain - $2.85
                          Clinton - $5.50
Looks increasingly like a McCain/Obama showdown. The risk for Obama, I think, is that disaffected Clinton voters might jump ship entirely. Anyone seen any odds for a Obama/Clinton joint ticket or possibly a Clinton/Lewinski joint ticket?


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## 2020hindsight (14 April 2008)

skint said:


> Anyone seen any odds for a Obama/Clinton joint ticket or possibly a Clinton/Lewinski joint ticket?



I think there's more chance of a McCain /Clinton ticket m8  
or as you say lol , a Hillary /Lewinski joint ticket. 

PS Centrebet about 8.5% bookies margin as well  

better to put your money on an Anzac Day twoup school than to bet with these greedy bugas

PS I was wrong when the said the bookies were 4.5% margin before - because there were more runners then .  - 
doh


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A good candidate, a great person, he'll be a worthy president.
> 
> gg




A worthy candidate, a good person, he'll be a great president.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (4 May 2008)

No real change in those odds..  (on this betting website anyways) .. 

http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm

obama 10/11 = $1.91
mccain 69/50 = $2.38
hillary 4/1 = $5.00



> For interest ..
> 
> 14 Apr :-
> obama 10/11 = $1.91
> ...






Garpal Gumnut said:


> A worthy candidate, a good person, he'll be a great president.




gg, at this stage, I'd agree only to "a presidential candidate person" )


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> No real change in those odds..  (on this betting website anyways) ..
> 
> http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm
> 
> ...




I'll take a bet and make one at the same time.

2020

$10 that JMc wins      23.80 to me 

I'll give you $3.45 which is the average of the 2 nitwits for the Dems, that will give you 34.45 plus my ten which is 44.45

If Maccer wins I get 23.80 plus $10 which you lost which is 33.80, plus a bonus of 10.75 for backing a more honest upstanding bastard (maccer) than the other 2 democrats, who are now battle hardened, unlike my feller.

I think. 

I'm not good at working out odds / probabilities / kurtosis, mandelbrottian etc etc boring 

How about I buy you a drink if the dems get in and you buy me one when maccer gets in.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (4 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> How about I buy you a drink if the dems get in and you buy me one when maccer gets in.  gg



ok - I'll have a Guiness thanks


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## 2020hindsight (4 May 2008)

If Hillary wins, you're off the hook - 
either that or I'll go you halves in a 6 pack.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ok - I'll have a Guiness thanks




You're on mate. A guinness it is.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> If Hillary wins, you're off the hook -
> either that or I'll go you halves in a 6 pack.




that's a 6 pack of Jim Beams by the way


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> that's a 6 pack of Jim Beams by the way




Sorry mate I didn't see your last , ok a 6 pack Beams, or a guinness. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna win. The other 2 turkies are so dipped in each others droppings that JMac will steam through.

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 May 2008)

I just thought I'd remind all posters that honest John is going to be the next president of the USA. 

All these posts about Obama, shocking, you are being force fed a media myth.

Just to put John back in first place in Home thread.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (9 May 2008)

well gg, 
try explining those 2 youtubes on post #9
First impression would have to be he has something to hide or otherwise explain about his POW record, and release of POW records in general.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> well gg,
> try explining those 2 youtubes on post #9
> First impression would have to be he has something to hide or otherwise explain about his POW record, and release of POW records in general.




Cannot utube, on a slow download Telstra!!!

I do believe his POW record though has been dissected out in fine detail. He was a POW to my knowledge when Hanoi Jane was sitting on a Commie tank, I wonder whether she supports John or Obama today. I hope wayneL isn't mod as this is a some type of sinful argument in philosophy/logic. Hi 2020.

gg


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## wayneL (9 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Cannot utube, on a slow download Telstra!!!
> 
> I do believe his POW record though has been dissected out in fine detail. He was a POW to my knowledge when Hanoi Jane was sitting on a Commie tank, I wonder whether she supports John or Obama today. *I hope wayneL isn't mod as this is a some type of sinful argument in philosophy/logic.* Hi 2020.
> 
> gg




Eh? WTF are you talking about?


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 May 2008)

wayneL said:


> Eh? WTF are you talking about?




When I have better bandwidth I will reply. I like your new option site, excellent. Make sure all expat yanks vote for John in UK.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

No More STRAIGHT TALK From McCain Says Olbermann on MSNBC
a few notes ...


> McCain’s gimmick on the gas tax
> McCain admits that the US sent troops to Iraq for oil
> “it’s more that he’s fuzzy about whether he wants to ADMIT that we went there for oil”
> 
> ...




 negative McCain tactics - get ready for it


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## noirua (10 May 2008)

Let's be fair.  This is the true story of the courageous Senator John McCain:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQsckD9trn4


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## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

noirua said:


> Let's be fair.  This is the true story of the courageous Senator John McCain:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQsckD9trn4




he sure manages to get that POW record into any conversation needing an escape clause.  eg the Keating Five case - post #4 , though I notice that website article is no longer available    - 

PS I'm guessing we can expect a lot of attempts at "sanitised" youtubes and articles in the next 7 or 8 months. 



> McCain: I learned from Keating Five case
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Sen. John McCain's ethics entanglement with a wealthy banker ultimately convicted of swindling investors was such a disturbing, formative experience in his political career that he compares the scandal in some ways to the five years he was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.
> 
> "I faced in Vietnam, at times, very real threats to life and limb," McCain told The Associated Press. "But while my sense of honor was tested in prison, it was not questioned. During the Keating inquiry, it was, and I regretted that very much."




Incidentally  (according to one betting shop out there) 
http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm
Latest odds has Obama shortening, both the others going out.  
obama 10/12 = $1.88
mccain 13/8 = $2.63
hillary 10/1 = $11.00



> Previously (4May08) :-
> obama 10/11 = $1.91   (now 1.88)
> mccain 69/50 = $2.38  (now 2.63)
> hillary 4/1 = $5.00  (now 11.00)


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## noirua (10 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Incidentally  (according to one betting shop out there)
> http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/us-president.htm
> Latest odds has Obama shortening, both the others going out.
> obama 10/12 = $1.88
> ...



Those odds are infact a bit tighter than I thought with the Democrats getting so much campaign publicity.  Interesting to see if they change a bit next week when Hillary wins on the 13th.  McCain looks in a very good position here with the events in the war zones likely to flare up - getting out of Iraq could be difficult.


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## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

noirua said:


> Those odds are infact a bit tighter than I thought with the Democrats getting so much campaign publicity.  Interesting to see if they change a bit next week when Hillary wins on the 13th.  McCain looks in a very good position here with the events in the war zones likely to flare up - getting out of Iraq could be difficult.



you must like betting on outsiders is all I can say 
If the papers in her home state come out with the headlines "(Hillary is) TOAST" - to say nothing of the fact that her campaign is dead broke - you'd have to be on something pretty strong to think she can win from here (imo).

McCain? - do you trust him?

PS Here's another betting website:-
http://www.iasbet.com/Sport/BetType...titionId=19531&BetTypeId=979&FutureFlag=False

Democratic Party 1.53 
Republican Party 2.50

http://www.easyodds.com/compareodds/specials/Politics/m/51363-234-3.html

PS   Democratic Candidate :-
Obama 1/12  = $1.083
Hillary 7/1 = $8.00

http://www.easyodds.com/compareodds/specials/Politics/m/110922-234-3.html


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## noirua (10 May 2008)

It would be interesting to know who the terrorists would love as President?  Probably Obama first and Clinton second, there lies the answer maybe. Tough President or wimp?


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## Doris (10 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I just thought I'd remind all posters that honest John is going to be the next president of the USA.
> 
> All these posts about Obama, shocking, you are being force fed a media myth.
> 
> gg




Honest John?  Seems he's susceptible to lobbyists.

Obama doesn't have this problem as he has none.  
His financial backers are millions of individual supporters donating $25 or so.
Not a media myth.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...ewsletter&wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter

Friday, May 9, 2008; Page A01

*McCain Pushed Land Swap That Benefits Backer*




> As McCain positions himself as a champion of environmental causes, observers of the Yavapai Ranch swap say it shows a paradox in the senator's positions. At times, he has fought to protect the delicate desert ecosystem. But when wildlife concerns have thwarted development, his loyalties have shifted.
> 
> Ruskin (the ranch owner)... said he realized he needed to hire lobbyists "to open communications with McCain's office."
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (10 May 2008)

noirua said:


> It would be interesting to know who the terrorists would love as President?  Probably Obama first and Clinton second, there lies the answer maybe. Tough President or wimp?



noi, that is a seriously tainted post - any evidence.?.

lemme guess, 
you think there are fewer terrorists now than when GW Bush came on the scene ?  

PS or since we invaded Iraq etc 

As for the tough president or wimp comment - o boy - lol - we are talking cold war bs now.


----------



## Doris (11 May 2008)

noirua said:


> It would be interesting to know who the terrorists would love as President?  Probably Obama first and Clinton second, there lies the answer maybe. Tough President or wimp?




Ever notice that when a (tough) someone pushes or pulls another, their reaction is to pull or push to escape the onslaught?  

Even want to 'obliterate' in retaliation!  

Put out your hand and it is very hard for another not to offer their own and shake yours!

Remember the story of 'The Wind Versus The Sun'?  The wind was 'tough' and called the sun 'a wimp'.  He challenged the sun to 'get the coat off that man down there'.  He huffed and puffed and tore at the man's jacket but the harder he blew, the more the man clung to his coat.  Finally, the wind gave up and scoffed that it was an impossible task!  The sun shone brightly on the man who felt warm and comfortable... and took off his coat.

Sure... terrorists are psychologically disparate to your normal man with grievances.  

Possibly it is an impossible task but at least if their grievances are heard and acknowledged, there is a glimmer of hope.  
Conversation worked in Kenya...


----------



## Julia (11 May 2008)

Doris said:


> Ever notice that when a (tough) someone pushes or pulls another, their reaction is to pull or push to escape the onslaught?
> 
> Even want to 'obliterate' in retaliation!
> 
> ...



Nice parable, Doris.  Would be good to think it could happen.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 May 2008)

Doris said:


> Remember the story of 'The Wind Versus The Sun'?
> 
> Conversation worked in Kenya...



Doris, these days there's a sequel ...
"and so man took off his coats, rolled up his sleeves, and turned the sun and the wind into clean energy sources ....."
Kenya? - yes we ken! 
(apologies for the trivial nature of this post - won't happen again - till the next time).


----------



## Doris (12 May 2008)

Julia said:


> Nice parable, Doris.  Would be good to think it could happen.




Aaah... 'The Audacity of Hope!'  



2020hindsight said:


> Doris, these days there's a sequel ...
> "and so man took off his coats, rolled up his sleeves, and turned the sun and the wind into clean energy sources ....."
> Kenya? - yes we ken!
> (apologies for the trivial nature of this post - won't happen again - till the next time).




I needed a smile 2020!  ... (don't do Mondays well...)

If Joe gives awards for the brightest light on here, you have my vote!  

Obama's team is considering McCain's team's proposal for "a series of town hall debates" as well as "the usual schedule of three televised debates for a presidential election".  

Now that will be an interesting sequel!


----------



## wayneL (12 May 2008)

Doris & 2020,

You owe me a new keyboard.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 May 2008)

noirua said:


> It would be interesting to know who the terrorists would love as President?  Probably Obama first and Clinton second, there lies the answer maybe. Tough President or wimp?






2020hindsight said:


> noi, that is a seriously tainted post - any evidence.?.  lemme guess, ...you think there are fewer terrorists now than when GW Bush came on the scene ?  or since we invaded Iraq etc




Noi , I’ve now challenged you twice on this, but I notice you choose not to reply.

See, I would totally disagree.  I would maintain the AQ terrorists have seriously thrived under Bush.  He has played into their hands like a complete Manchurian Candidate (see two quotes below)



2020hindsight said:


> so these bomb scares, - would they be by Moslim terrorists maybe? - or redneck terrorists? or racist terrorists? etc etc
> 
> Couldn't be Moslim terrorists, because according to noirua, they want him to win
> (post #44 on the John McCain thread)
> ...




Firstly, Without even having to draw on your combined assumptions of the attitude of the Moslim terrorists or the mafia , I would reckon without doubt that those threats were from the redneck and/or racist terrorists. 

Just watching Enough Rope – and hearing about Leunig getting death threats because he is anti the Iraq war - sheesh   

Back to that Manchurian Candidate theory – here’s an old post from another thread ..
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171298&highlight=manchurian#post171298

This website compares GWBush with "the Manchurian Candidate" 
http://hnn.us/articles/32618.html by Mr. Buzzanco, Professor of History, University of Houston, is the author of several books and articles on Vietnam War



> *If enemies of the United States had gotten together a few years ago to devise a plan to damage America and undermine its global position–diminish its power and credibility, *drag it into a stubborn war, harm its relations with allies, create international financial disarray, run up huge deficits, create political openings for the Europeans and China to exploit and become equals in global economic matters, motivate terrorists, bring the U.S. image in the Middle East to its nadir, restrict civil liberties at home, and so forth– *they would have been hard-pressed to create a program that would be more effective than the Bush administration’s policies on these issues of war, terrorism, and global economics have. *
> 
> Indeed, if one is an “enemy” of the U.S., then he/she would have to be heartened that Bush has pursued this agenda and would have to be elated that the war in Iraq continues today. Given enough rope, Bush may hang not only himself, but American influence and credibility, and the global economy. Like a “sleeper” agent, or Laurence Harvey’s famed character, Sgt. Raymond Shaw, in The Manchurian Candidate, George W. Bush, the ultimate insider, is doing more to damage America than Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hassan Nasrallah, the Syrians, the Iranians, or any other enemy du jour, ever could.
> 
> ...




http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/10/manchurian_cand.html


> As one astute American conservative commentator has already observed, *President Bush has morphed into the Manchurian Candidate, behaving as if placed among Americans by their enemies to do them damage*.


----------



## noirua (12 May 2008)

Hi 2020 (ref post 50), thou throwest down thee gauntlet. I have picked it up!  Throw down the other one and i'll have a pair - good luck - noi
PS Will reply very shortly, however, you did kindly answer the question in post 44.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 May 2008)

noirua said:


> Hi 2020, thou throwest down thee gauntlet. I have picked it up!  Throw down the other one and i'll have a pair - good luck - noi
> PS Will reply very shortly




See I ask are you gonna post an “oops” after predicting Hilary would win in North Carolina.  - when she was whipped ( Obama 56% - Clinton 42%)

I posted “so I guess an oops is unlikely then”
That post was deleted !!  

Meanwhile , you post this little classic, which causes not the slightest raise of anyone's eyebrow :-



noirua said:


> It would be interesting to know who the terrorists would love as President?  Probably Obama first...?   .. wimp etc




I find the rules around here quite weird


----------



## noirua (12 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> See I ask are you gonna post an “oops” after predicting Hilary would win in North Carolina.  - when she was whipped ( Obama 56% - Clinton 42%)
> 
> I posted “so I guess an oops is unlikely then”
> That post was deleted !!
> ...




Hi 2020, sadly, I'm not able to reply to a post that was deleted and as I have not checked thoroughly, I don't know if any of mine have.  It may have something to do with how seriously we take our posts to be on this particular thread.  As Hillary said to a British journalist, who put forward an adversely critical point "You can't vote!".

Anyway, on the matter of terrorists it is a case of what point of view you agree with:  George W Bush has been responsible for killing a lot of terrorists and therefore there are less now, or, he has agravated a lot of people and created a lot more terrorists.

As far as the contestants in the election are concerned, Barack Obama has set his footprint in the sand as far as withdrawing from Iraq is concerned.  Even more so than Hillary Clinton. Therefore, imho, the terrorists in Iraq (by the way, i did not mention religion, if you check my post) would like a USA President who would withdraw from Iraq the quickest. 

I respect your point of view, even if I do not agree with it - noi


----------



## wayneL (12 May 2008)

noirua said:


> "You can't vote!"




A point that seems to be lost on a helluva a lot of non-US citizens.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 May 2008)

noirua said:


> Therefore, imho, the terrorists in Iraq (by the way, i did not mention religion, if you check my post) would like a USA President who would withdraw from Iraq the quickest.



As far as the terrorists in Iraq (and there weren't any there until we invaded - but moving on) , depends on how myopic one chooses to be.  We can go on fighting them for centuries, or we can try to sort out the problems.  Not that it's gonna be easy.  

As for the racial terrorists in USA, they'd probably like McCain over Obama for sure, and a few bomb threats would be well within their capabilities.


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 May 2008)

wayneL said:


> A point that seems to be lost on a helluva a lot of non-US citizens.




"I can't vote"
sure.
I can't vote for or against Mugabe either.  Doesn't stop me having an opinion though.   I assume it's ok to have an opinion?


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> As far as the terrorists in Iraq (and there weren't any there until we invaded - but moving on) , depends on how myopic one chooses to be.  We can go on fighting them for centuries, or we can try to sort out the problems.  Not that it's gonna be easy.
> 
> As for the racial terrorists in USA, they'd probably like McCain over Obama for sure, and a few bomb threats would be well within their capabilities.




ps Maybe the terrorists would like most someone like McCain who would invade Iran. 

- he didn't graduate 894th out of his class of 899 (Naval Academy in 1958) for nothing you know.


----------



## wayneL (13 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> "I can't vote"
> sure.
> I can't vote for or against Mugabe either.  Doesn't stop me having an opinion though.   I assume it's ok to have an opinion?



Review your posts on this forum. Clearly, that is indeed the case. 

What is a matter of interest however, is your need to reply to my non-specific comment as if it were specifically directed at you. I wonder what Junge would make of that?


----------



## noirua (13 May 2008)

John S McCain, "At the Naval Academy":  http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mccain/articles/0301mccainbio-chapter2.html


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 May 2008)

wayneL said:


> ... What is a matter of interest however, is your need to reply to my non-specific comment as if it were specifically directed at you. I wonder what Junge would make of that?



just posting on behalf of the many posters who have contributed to the discussion on the many threads about US politics around here  - despite the fact we can't vote  (including you I guess) 

Incidentally US politics is arguably (surely?) more important than Zimbabwe - given the way we follow them from warzone to warzone these days.


----------



## wayneL (13 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> just posting on behalf of the many posters who have contributed to the discussion on the many threads about US politics around here  - despite the fact we can't vote  (including you I guess)
> 
> Incidentally US politics is arguably (surely?) more important than Zimbabwe - given the way we follow them from warzone to warzone these days.



I'm sure if the many posters needed you to speak on their behalf, they would have asked you. They didn't. Most are aware that we have no bearing on US elections and hold the zealotry over for their own elections.

Now that's enough on the matter, if folks can keep on topic, that would be good.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 May 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/14/2244635.htm?section=justin

McCain getting some "help" from an "allied" evangelist..
be interesting to see if McCain can talk his way out of this as well as Obama has (or seems to have) been able to do with "his Pastor" 

Then again, you never know with America which way the voters will jump.  



> McCain-allied preacher apologises over 'Catholic *****' comments
> Posted 2 hours 46 minutes ago
> Updated 2 hours 47 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## bearmarket (14 May 2008)

What does ***** mean


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 May 2008)

m8 - if you go to the link it's all there . 
 Sufficient to say 
a) it's poilitically incorrect
b) starts with "who" and rhymes with "ore"


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 May 2008)

"Is this the kind of gaff that can cripple a campaign ? ......... "
"Mccain admits Iraq War really about OIL!"


 John '100 years' Mccain admits Iraq War really about OIL!!!



> McCain decided to toss in a plug for his upcoming energy policy rollout. But in the midst of decrying the dangers of Americans reliance on foreign oil, McCain seemed to suggest that this reliance caused the current struggle in Iraq. "My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will -- that will then prevent us -- that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," McCain said.




 Keith Olbermann slams John Mccain - BLOOD for OIL (Iraq war)


----------



## noirua (15 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> "Is this the kind of gaff that can cripple a campaign ? ......... "
> "Mccain admits Iraq War really about OIL!"
> 
> 
> John '100 years' Mccain admits Iraq War really about OIL!!!




At the very end I notice the following words "paid for by the Democratic National Committee". Probably, why not much notice was taken of it and anyway, John McCain is known for his straight from the shoulder comments.

Chance to elect a great Commander in Chief:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypn76M0Wm-k


----------



## Julia (15 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> We can go on fighting them for centuries, or we can try to sort out the problems.  Not that it's gonna be easy.




Could you describe what you see as "the problems"?

Could you make some suggestions as to how we can try to sort out the problems and with whom?

I have a vague recollection of Osama bin Laden offering a 'truce' a few years ago.  Can't remember the details now and have no idea how genuine any such offer might have been.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 May 2008)

Julia said:


> Could you describe what you see as "the problems"?
> 
> Could you make some suggestions as to how we can try to sort out the problems and with whom?
> 
> I have a vague recollection of Osama bin Laden offering a 'truce' a few years ago.  Can't remember the details now and have no idea how genuine any such offer might have been.




Julia, gee 64K dollar questions
Palestinian question has gotta be #1. 
Likewise the fact that we are in Iraq - again a self perpetuating problem.

Bush currently trying to broker a Peace Settlement in Palestine - yeah right.  his chance and Buckley's.  (if you ask me). 

Not so much interested in a truce with AQ, more a way to starve him of conscripts.  - As I said, not that it's gonna be easy. 

But putting it round the other way, I'm 100% convinced that we have gone backwards under Bush.   And when McCain is asked "do you see Iraq going on for 50 years?" and he answers immediately "100 years,  why not?" - I ask myself, I sure as hell hope that someone better than him gets the top job.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 May 2008)

The McCain-Obama Double Standard



> Keith Olberman illustrates the media's double standard when it comes to Barack Obama's preacher (Jeremiah Wright)and John McCain's preachers (John Hagee, Jerry Falwell and Rod Parsely).




PS Hagee and Falwell are seriously deluded idiots.


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 May 2008)

Julia said:


> Could you describe what you see as "the problems"?
> 
> Could you make some suggestions as to how we can try to sort out the problems and with whom?



Another problem is religious fanaticism / extremism on all sides ...
Actually Julia, if you watch that video in the last post , you'll hear a couple of classics ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoEvbybr4ZI

a) Hagee saying that New Orleans (Katrina) was God acting to prevent a gay mardi gras  (Gay Pride Parade) that they planned for the next week - it was published in the paper, ok ....  and , mmm , God must have read about it, ok ... and , hey! -  no way Jose was he gonna let that happen - so he sends in Katrina ....  

"I believe that New Orleans  had a level oid sin that was offensive to God ... etc " 

b) Falwell saying that WTC 9/11 was God angry at the gays etc 
"Those who died on 9/11 probably deserved it"  - this statement made on national TV WHILST firefighters were still searching through the rubble for their dead comrades.   

and, lol - 
McCain staking hands / embracing these idiots.  

I find it hard to believe that a person who made it to grade 5 would believe any of the stuff these blokes say. 

PS I wonder if God also screwed up the pathetic rescue effort in New Orleans.  

PS SHinbone !! - Just as well God didn't read the Sydney Morning Herald when they announced Sydney's Mardi Gras .  

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003728364


> Hagee, in 'NYT' This Sunday, Says McCain Sought His Endorsement
> By Greg Mitchell
> Published: March 20, 2008 5:35 PM ET
> 
> ...




Hell, he reckons Obama would make "the major leagues" in the "ministry" -  news for Hagee - that's exactly what he will do if he gets into the White House - but a damned site more sensible and relevant "ministry" that you've ever been involved with. 


> Asked what he thinks of Obama, he answers, "He is going to be difficult to beat, because the man is a *master of communication*. If he were in the ministry, *he would make it in the major leagues overnight*".




http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/mccain-admits-h.html


> McCain Admits Hagee Endorsement Was A Mistake
> Email
> Share April 20, 2008 12:42 PM
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> I find it hard to believe that a person who made it to grade 5 would believe any of the stuff these blokes say.



I take that back ... I meant to say who made it through kindergarten.


----------



## noirua (16 May 2008)

Well, it's now back to the real world, back to reallity "McCain Iraq, Iran Policies Make him Favored Candidate to Saudis". http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aTPOwyOePvy8&refer=home

When it comes down to it John McCain is the important person in steadying the Arab ship and securing oil supplies.


----------



## Aussiejeff (16 May 2008)

noirua said:


> Well, it's now back to the real world, back to reallity "McCain Iraq, Iran Policies Make him Favored Candidate to Saudis". http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aTPOwyOePvy8&refer=home
> 
> When it comes down to it John McCain is the important person in steadying the Arab ship and securing oil supplies.




I'm a bit at sea with this McCain guy.

Is he related to the mob that make McCain's (Tm) prepared meals?


----------



## noirua (16 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> I'm a bit at sea with this McCain guy.
> 
> Is he related to the mob that make McCain's (Tm) prepared meals?



No! But he is related to a Scottish King, Robert de Bruce and his father was a Full Admiral in the American Fleet in World War 11.


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 May 2008)

noirua said:


> No! But he is related to a Scottish King, Robert de Bruce and his father was a Full Admiral in the American Fleet in World War 11.




I hope if he is elected President he won't continue the policy of ABJECT APPEASEMENT shown towards the Juntas of North Korea and Burma that his predecessor has shown.

Maybe we can hope they strike BIG oil in those countries so President-to-be McCain can do his dooty....  



AJ


----------



## noirua (17 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> I hope if he is elected President he won't continue the policy of ABJECT APPEASEMENT shown towards the Juntas of North Korea and Burma that his predecessor has shown.
> Maybe we can hope they strike BIG oil in those countries so President-to-be McCain can do his dooty....
> AJ



Hi AJ, this link shows why China supports the Junta in Burma and about the gas field found there. If America makes a move they would find the Burmese Junta receiving even more weapons and support from China and India, more that is than they receive already.  
A very sad situation which may take 30 years or more to solve:  http://burma.suite101.com/article.cfm/burmese_oil_excites_china_india


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 May 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> I hope if he is elected President he won't continue the policy of ABJECT APPEASEMENT shown towards the Juntas of North Korea and Burma that his predecessor has shown.
> 
> Maybe we can hope they strike BIG oil in those countries so President-to-be McCain can do his dooty....
> 
> ...




There is a type of wooly argument, illustrated in this post, that all the ills of the world are due to inaction by the West.

Korea, Cambodia and Burma have a long history of mad and bad rulers which their populations have followed through monarchial, democratic and communist rule since recorded time.

The American people are aware of this and will vote for John McCain precisely to keep the holders of this argument at arms length from any real power in the great USA.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 May 2008)

McCain is a conman - I swear it !! - 
one shallow conman... 
the more I see of him , the less I like him.

e.g. How's this for a classic Ad hominem ....

 Barack Obama/Jim Webb vs John Mccain - Veteran GI Bill



> Ad hominem
> A Latin phrase which has come to mean attacking your opponent, as opposed to attacking their arguments



. 

well for mine I sure hope that it's an Obama / Webb ticket (not that Webb has put his hand up yet for the VP position)

 Jim Webb Rips Lindsey Graham on Meet the Press


(Only) 35% of the US military agree with the policy of this President

 Jim Webb on Hardball 2/7/07

 JIM WEBB: Iraq Questions for Petraeus, Crocker


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 May 2008)

John McCain booed by Republicans


----------



## 2020hindsight (28 May 2008)

Back to that lady who challenged him on the disclosure of records of POW /MIA personnel..

If these quotes are true, the man doesn't deserve to be a Senator, let alone a  President. 

  John McCain Cursing


----------



## wayneL (28 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Back to that lady who challenged him on the disclosure of records of POW /MIA personnel..
> 
> If these quotes are true, the man doesn't deserve to be a Senator, let alone a  President.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 May 2008)

wayneL said:


> There was no swearing.
> 
> Any politician would have been immediately called to order and/or censured for swearing in the house. Watch closely, it's BS.



you're right - I withdraw that one.  
propaganda 
but he bullied her with no justification and/or inappropriately.
and he stormed out rudely
and that's equally inadmissible 
(plus singlehandedly obstructed the passing of that bill to release documents on Vietnam MIA /POWs)

PS I think my subconscious suspected bs when I added that "If these quotes are true" ..


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 June 2008)

McCain sure has a problem with the trend in youtubes...
which publish any bloopers that the media misses ...

  John McCain vs. John McCain

 McCain's YouTube Problem Just Became a Nightmare


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 June 2008)

Olbermann interviewing Brendan Freedman , US veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan wars... 



> (what do you think of the theory that) "McCain is immune to criticism purely because he was a POW - that the merits cannot even be discussed.....  (does this remind you of the worst military red tape or every bit of censorship relative to its personnel  )





> "absolutely,  McCain doesn't have the only say on war service.
> We respect John McCain's service
> but he's not the only person to have suffered in war
> 
> ...




  John McCain *NOT IMPORTANT WHEN THE TROOPS COME HOME!


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 June 2008)

Al Qaeda WANTS the U.S. to ATTACK Iran!



> the drumbeat McCain started against Iran last month is 100% crap.!
> 
> If you'd like this country USA to go into business with Al Queda  i.e. play into their hands , then George Bush and John McCain -  they're your guys!.


----------



## Doris (14 June 2008)

*Guantanamo Bay*


From: David Plouffe, BarackObama.com [mailto:info@barackobama.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 14 June 2008 6:16 AM
Subject: *Take a stand on civil liberties*


The Supreme Court made a landmark ruling about civil liberties yesterday -- and you should know what it means for this election. 

*In a five-to-four decision, the Court determined that suspects being held at the Guantanamo Bay naval base have the right to appeal their detention in federal court. *

This is a major victory for everyone who cares about civil liberties, human rights, and America's standing in the world. 

*Barack Obama praised this ruling* -- demonstrating his respect for our civil liberties and showing his commitment to keeping us safe while restoring the rights that have been stripped away by George W. Bush. 

*John McCain and George W. Bush had a very different take on yesterday's decision. 

"I strongly agree with [the justices] who dissented," said Bush. McCain struck a similar note, saying, "The decision obviously concerns me." *

This episode is another reminder that John McCain is fighting to continue George Bush's policies for a third term. 

John McCain has shown his willingness to compromise basic rights that are at the core of American justice and the rule of law. He seems willing to turn a blind eye to the suspension of habeas corpus and the mistreatment of prisoners that have destroyed our country's reputation in the world. 

Barack Obama will fight terrorism aggressively and keep every American safe -- while preserving our sacred civil liberties. 

Take a stand now -- sign our online petition to show your support for the Supreme Court's decision and for this campaign. 

http://my.barackobama.com/liberties

Thank you for working for real change, 

David

David Plouffe
Campaign Manager
Obama for America 


>>>

*McCain Applauded for Opposition to Court Decision on Guantanamo Bay*

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/06/13/mccain_applauded_for_oppositio.html


PEMBERTON, N.J. -- Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) today decried Thursday's Supreme Court ruling granting foreign terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay the right to challenge their detention in civilian courts, which he called "*one of the worst decisions in the history of this country*."

McCain -- who has long maintained the federal government should close Guantanamo Bay detention center -- said *Congress made a distinction between those imprisoned there and U.S. civilians* in the law he helped write, the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

"We made it very clear these are enemy combatants," he said. "They have not, and never have been, given the rights of citizens of this country."

The crowd of more than 1,000 supporters, packed into a gym at Burlington County College, exploded into applause at McCain's comments.

The presumptive GOP nominee then read from Chief Justice John Roberts' dissent, and predicted *the courts would now be "flooded" with habeas corpus lawsuits.*

"We are going to be bollixed up in a way that's terribly unfortunate," he told the audience, adding that 30 detainees released from Guantanamo subsequently tried to attack the U.S. "Our first obligation is the safety and security of this nation, and the men and women who defend it. This decision will harm our ability to do that."

_The blogs on this site are thoughtful and insightful... worth a read_


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (2 July 2008)

I just thought I'd remind you girls and guys that the US election is a 2 horse race and that the only poll that matters is on that day.

B Obama may be ahead in the polls but there is a while to go yet.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 July 2008)

What's your opinion of this one gg 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=309210&highlight=clark#post309210

Stands to reason doesn't it?
If Clark is shot down four times, and McCain is shot down once, then surely Clark is four times more qualified to be President  ?  

No one wanted to talk about this one on the Obama thread :2towcents.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> What's your opinion of this one gg
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=309210&highlight=clark#post309210
> 
> ...




There is an old saying that another man's pain is easier to bear.

McCain suffered for his country and is well qualified to lead it. War service is not the only criterion for leadership, but lack of it is a peculiarly modern romantic notion of the left.

No Roman would have seriously considered any non military person as a leader. 

Yes Rome did fall but to other military leaders unencumbered by the decay of the Roman empire. 

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> . War service is not the only criterion for leadership, but lack of it is a peculiarly modern romantic notion *of the left*.




Lack of it was a pretty notion of the right as well (Bush and the rest of the Chicken Hawks) 

- not that it stopped them from sending others to fight where they had managed to avoid it (personally) so well. 

But I concede that McCain is different to these others *from the right *in that he was shot down in Vietnam. etc . 

 "Chickenhawk" by Roy Zimmerman


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> But I concede that McCain is different to these others *from the right *in that he was shot down in Vietnam. etc .




This is a copy of that post on the Barack Obama thread ...
basically asking the question,  if being shot down is so important to a political career, maybe Wesley Clark would make four times the politician that McCain would.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2290557.htm



> War record remark upsets Republicans
> AM - Tuesday, 1 July , 2008 08:06:00
> Reporter: Michael Rowland
> TONY EASTLEY: In the United States, a row has erupted after a spokesman for Democratic Presidential nominee Barack Obama questioned the military record of Republican candidate John McCain.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

the other thing being discussed on the Obama thread is flipflops on policy ..

try these for size / comparison 

 McCain's backflips (so far)


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

McCain has changed 

David Wright of ABC News: "McCain became visiby angry when I asked him how his Vietnam experiences prepared  him for the Presidency".


----------



## noirua (5 July 2008)

Indeed yes, I'm absolutely persuaded of the position of John McCain, unfortunately, I'm not sure what alternative there is now.  Not exactly a Pope John Paul 2nd is JM, but yes, the initials show a more solidly strong religious person if really a George Bush 3rd.  The alternative is doubtful on defending America when viewed from the top end.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 July 2008)

noirua said:


> Indeed yes, I'm absolutely persuaded of the position of John McCain, unfortunately, I'm not sure what alternative there is now.  Not exactly a Pope John Paul 2nd is JM, but yes, the initials show a more solidly strong religious person if really a George Bush 3rd.  The alternative is doubtful on defending America when viewed from the top end.




The following was blogged by a leftie called the middlest child.

It shows how McCain with his frailties and strengths will come through to win against a hollywood media out to destroy his campaign.

Top Ten Reasons to Vote for John McCain
13 06 2008

By Kari G.

Surprisingly, not every candidate on the ballot is looking to privatize social security and gather as may nuclear weapons as possible. But one is, ladies and gentlemen: John McCain. So, in honor of my newfound love, I present the top ten reasons to vote for him in November (in descending order).

McCain is America

10. His name. John Sidney McCain. America has seen a fair share of notable Johns, and McCain would be a proud addition to such a list, including: John Adams, John Hancock, John Stamos, John Wilkes Booth, Jon Bon Jovi…and let’s not forget John Smith, the lovable American that brought the power and success of democracy to Pocahontas’ accepting village. John’s last name, McCain, stands like a bold rock on the page, and has the McCorporate power prefix like that of the All-American cheeseburger. His name might as well be McAmerica. McCain’s competition is futile, as his first name rhymes with Iraq (Barack), and he shares his middle name with Saddam (Hussein). That’s a double-whammy. Did I mention his last name is strikingly similar to Osama? Triple whammy. That’s the most un-American name I’ve ever heard of.

9. John McCain doesn’t know how to use a computer. In an interview with Yahoo News, McCain was asked if he used “a Mac or a PC,” to which he responded triumphantly with, “I am an illiterate who relies on my wife to handle everything like that.” Bravo, John. It’s about time we as Americans did away with all this “technological” nonsense and moved towards the good old days, back when you wrote information on clay tablets and were struck with a ruler for bad posture or for not poking fun at a minority. Remember those days, John? It’s not like computers have anything to do with being in charge of nuclear weapons, right?

8. McCain’s not interested in social issues. He bluntly quoted, “It’s not the social issues I care about,” and couldn’t be more enlightening. Who cares about civil rights? Who cares about the people? Not America, that’s for damn sure. If there’s one thing America stands for, it’s democracy (see: imperialism). As long as McCain’s in office, we’ll be too preoccupied with the important issues like national security to worry about little “social issues.”

7. McCain doesn’t understand economics. He quotes, “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” Ain’t that the truth. I’ve never been the best at balancing my checkbook, and it’s just a myth concocted by the Democrats that our economy is in the gutter. As long as those tax cuts keep digging into the working class, I’m home free! Plus, economics isn’t that important of an issue (see Reason 8 for details).

6. He has a great sense of humor. At a National Rifle Association rally, a hilarious joke was made about Senator Barack Obama being assassinated. The joke stated, “That was Barack Obama. He just tripped off a chair. He’s getting ready to speak and someone aimed a gun at him and he fell to the floor.” Actually, that quote didn’t come from McCain, but Senator Mike Huckabee. What a jokester, though! Let’s hope he carries that NRA sense of humor straight into the VP spot!

5. He’s intimidating. Let’s be honest. The greatest quality we need to look for in our next president is how well they’d fair in a staring contest against terrorists. Plural. Well, ladies and gentlemen, McCain strikes fear into the hearts of even the toughest of tough, as a fellow American and Republican Senator quoted, “The thought of him [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He’s erratic. He’s hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me.” **** yes. That is word for word what we need to hope Bin Laden is saying in his cave in whatever the hell language foreigners speak. Once we get an arsenal of nuclear weapons into the hands of a hot head like McCain, terrorists won’t know what to do (don’t worry, we’d nuke them before they nuked us).

4. McCain knows how to win. When that preppy-boy Matt Lauer asked McCain what a time frame for bringing American soldiers back from Iraq would be, John replied with, “That’s not too important. What’s important is the casualties.” You tell him, John. What does Matt Lauer know about war? It’s obvious that the only thing that matters is death. Families that are whining about their children fighting war across the world will just have to suck it, ‘cause they ain’t dead yet! McCain also stated he’d be perfectly fine with keeping troops in Iraq for 100 years. Why the **** not, right? I mean, if the people of Iraq didn’t want us there, they probably would’ve told us by now. It’s not that big of a deal, America. It’s only a century.

3. He’s a religious man. Not just that, McCain knows that the real way to succeed as a country is not to acknowledge all those kooky religions that this salad bowl of a country is following, but to focus simply on one: the best one. Unite the people and their beliefs. Mccain says, “The number one issue that is in the selection of the United States [president] is ‘will this person carry on in the Judeo-Christian tradition that has made this Nation the greatest experiment of mankind.”’ Amen. To Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

2. He’s going to bomb the **** out of Iran. McCain is an all-American. He’s a military man, and a POW to be exact. He knows his guns. Therefore, placing the military at the disposal of a bitter war veteran is the best choice for our nation. Researchers could prove, one assumes, that there would be no negative consequences for invading yet another country in the Middle East. If anything, it would only assert our worldly dominance and get those pesky terrorists off our backs. We need to open up the files on Brinkmanship, an idea developed in the Cold War by John Foster Dulles, who told Eisenhower the best way to defend our nation was to use nuclear weapons as a threat and bring war “to the brink.” Hell, Cold War ideals like containment have worked damn well so far. We need to take charge, and McCain can do this. He playfully stated to press, “You know that old Beach Boys song, ‘Bomb Iran?’ ‘Bomb, bomb, bomb…bomb, bomb Iran.’” Ha! That McCain is one hilarious guy! I believe he changed the words to the classic, “Barbara Ann,” but if you ask me we should call up Brian Wilson and the rest of the boys and ask them to change the lyrics. They’re much better that way.

1. He knows how to put a woman in her place. At a public conference, McCain’s wife, Cindy, playfully twirled his hair and stated (annoyingly), “You’re getting a little thin up there.” McCain kept his cool and replied with a subtle, “At least I don’t plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you ****.” McCain claims it was a “long day,” which I see as fair proof that this behavior will be continued during his long days in the Oval Office. This is good news, America, because we need a strong-willed, masculine president that’s not afraid to tell his woman to make him a sandwich. Because sometimes he’s hungry. And sometimes she’s being a ****. And America, McCain will not hesitate to throw the c-word into battle against those cowardly terrorists, either.

There you have it, my fellow Americans. The top ten reasons to vote for John Sidney McCain. The facts are here. The quotes have been spoken. I know you may be hesitant because of his age, but let me assure you that his senile behavior will only enhance the bold and immediate responses McCain will provide to threats made to American soil. Think about your safety, America, and vote McCain in November.


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

Olbermann - btw, just using the style of the rightwing questions put to Obama, as if similar questions were put to McCain... 

 Five questions for JOHN McCAIN
1. What's with the hookers?
2. Why do you hate the elderley? and the taxpayers?  
3. Why do you hate the constitution?
4. Why do you hate America?
5. Why do you hate catholics, muslims, New Orleans, gay people, parades, life on earth as we know it?


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 July 2008)

US freedom of speech? lol - you gotta be joking !   

 Ousted "McCain=Bush" Librarian on Olbermann



> Rachel Maddow: Freedom of speech and the right to assemble -- perhaps in the eye of the overzealous beholder when it comes to John McCain's campaign staff. Our third story on the Countdown -- While Mister McCain was delivering quote, straight talk, at one of his open-forum town hall meetings in Denver yesterday, things were getting closed down just outside.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 July 2008)

Just to add a little sanity to the recent Obamamania.

It appears that the US may be in the same mindset as Australia was in when John Howard beat Keating. 

All the polls showed Keating would win, but the committed voters had decided way ahead of the final poll and Howard thumped him.

There is so much floss about Obama and McCain just keeps on going. And he'll win. 

gg


----------



## skint (26 July 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Just to add a little sanity to the recent Obamamania.
> 
> It appears that the US may be in the same mindset as Australia was in when John Howard beat Keating.
> 
> ...




More recently, there was a bloke called Rudd. All the polls showed Rudd would win.....one thumped Howard. The yanks are a funny mob but the Republicans are royally on the nose. Iraq, national debt explosion and on and on... Obama's definitely the favourite by any measure but I agree it's not a forgone conclusion.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 July 2008)

skint said:


> More recently, there was a bloke called Rudd. All the polls showed Rudd would win.....one thumped Howard. The yanks are a funny mob but the Republicans are royally on the nose. Iraq, national debt explosion and on and on... Obama's definitely the favourite by any measure but I agree it's not a forgone conclusion.




But the yanks don't have to vote, and as Obama is a dead cert most of the doctor's wives will stay at home and the conservative voters will turn out like it is for church and John will get in.

gg


----------



## skint (26 July 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> But the yanks don't have to vote, and as Obama is a dead cert most of the doctor's wives will stay at home and the conservative voters will turn out like it is for church and John will get in.
> 
> gg




The  republicans have won the last coupe of elections by reeling the 'godbotherers". Could be a conflicting allegience for you there GG. Stock up on Colgate!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 July 2008)

skint said:


> The  republicans have won the last coupe of elections by reeling the 'godbotherers". Could be a conflicting allegience for you there GG. Stock up on Colgate!




Unlike those on the left, people on the right are not one dimensional.

One can abhor godbotherers and still induce them to vote for one's own preferred candidate, who for their own reasons prefer him or her.

Now on the left you are a warmer, pro choice, anti indigenous intervention, read SMH, anti Murdoch, pro sorry, anti development and progress, * and* a tree hugger or else you are not in the running for a cushy $200,000 a year job as an adviser or a hollowman.

I don't necessarily include you in the above.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 July 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unlike those on the left, people on the right are not one dimensional.



well those 3D beerguts seem to be pretty evenly distributed across the political spectrum (imo)


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> well those 3D beerguts seem to be pretty evenly distributed across the political spectrum (imo)




LOL I'll pay that one 2020. There is a basic humanity that transcends the political spectrum.

gg


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## noirua (27 July 2008)

John McCain is set to get the older voters out to support him in November and this factor, with many ageing States, could become quite crucial. 
Older voters have shown greater interest in Politics and turn out in larger numbers than younger age groups.
John McCain held a 60% - 40% approx. lead in a recent survey.


----------



## Doris (2 August 2008)

McCain is pretentious in alluding to be the saviour by solving the US dependence on foreign oil by off-shore drilling and denigrating Obama's policy ban on this.

What a flip flop!  :

*McCain Voted Against Reducing Dependence On Foreign Oil. *



> In 2005, McCain voted against legislation calling on the President *to submit a plan to reduce foreign petroleum imports by 40 percent*. [Senate Roll Call Vote #140, 6/16/05]




** McCain Voted Against Off-Shore Drilling.* 



> In his 2000 campaign for president, *John McCain criticized leases for drilling off the coast of California.*  He said, “The people of California deserve to be heard, without being forced to resort to legal action against their own government. A*s president, I will see to it that the interests of the people of California rise above the special interests of Washington, D.C*.” [Associated Press, 3/2/00]






> In 2005, McCain *voted for an amendment that would strike language instructing* the Interior Department to conduct a comprehensive inventory of Outer Continental Shelf oil and natural gas resources.  The amendment failed 44-52. [H.R. 6, Vote #143, 6/21/2005]




*McCain Voted Against Taxing Oil Companies To Provide $100 Rebate To Consumers. *



> In 2005, McCain voted against an amendment to impose a temporary tax on oil company profits from the sale of crude oil. The funds would be used to provide *every taxpayer with a $100 non-refundable tax credit for 2005 for each person in their household*. The amendment failed 33-65. [S 2020, Vote #341, 11/17/05]




*McCain Voted Against Funding for Renewable Energy, Extending Tax Credit and Low-Income Energy Assistance.* 



> In 2006, McCain voted *against an amendment* to provide $500 million for LIHEAP and $3.5 billion for other energy programs.
> 
> *It would also extend the renewable energy production tax credit and clean renewable energy bonds programs for four years*.  The amendment failed 46-52. [S.C.R. 83, Vote #42, 3/14/2006]




*Do the oil men have him in their back pockets*?



> Oil and Gas Campaign Contributions: McCain has Taken Over $1.3 Million From The Oil & Gas Industry. According to a Campaign Money Watch analysis of campaign finance data provided by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics Center, John McCain has accepted *at least $1,316,145* from the oil and gas industry since 1989. [Center for Responsive Politics via Campaign Money Watch, updated 7/11/08]




*Do status quo electricity companies have him in their back pockets*?



> McCain Has Accepted Over One Half A Million From The Electric Utility Industry. According to a Public Campaign Action Fund analysis of campaign finance data provided by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics Center, *John McCain received $558,365 in campaign contributions from the electric utility industry, which includes the nuclear power industry* since 1989. [Center for Responsive Politics via Campaign Money Watch]
> 
> McCain Has At Least 6 Electric Industry Lobbyists Running And Funding His Campaign.




http://progressiveaccountability.org/


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (2 August 2008)

As Mandy Rice said in the Profumo trial, "Well he would say that wouldn't he."

Each race is a different ballgame nowadays. Its glitz and spin. 

Obama is ahead, and yet to stumble. He may not survive to the Election. There are lots of nutters with guns in the US unfortunately ( lots of guns I mean , there are nutters everywhere )

I still back McCain.

gg


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## noirua (2 August 2008)

Doris;3203937:
[B said:
			
		

> McCain Voted Against Reducing Dependence On Foreign Oil. [/B]
> 
> ** McCain Voted Against Off-Shore Drilling.*
> 
> ...



 McCain voted against dependence on foreign oil as he knows that nothing much will happen in the next eight years. Green fuel will increase 10 fold in that time but will still account for nothing much.
Funding renewable energy is a waste of time, it will have its day, with Uranium, in thirty years time.
McCain knows that it is oil and mining companies that are farthest ahead in the advancement of green energy.
The oil men don't have McCain in their back pocket, there in his back pocket.
McCain knows that oil prices will tumble back towards $100 and the Greenback will recover a lot. Electricity and gas companies will follow oil and gas prices.

Obama, great man as he is, will have to get bundles of cash in, to fund all his expensive policies. With the US in decline there will be less cash around.
So many ideas will be delayed and congress wont vote through anything much that costs a fortune. If they do the Republicans will have a majority in two years time and that will be the end of that.


----------



## ZzzzDad (2 August 2008)

Doris said:


> McCain is pretentious in alluding to be the saviour by solving the US dependence on foreign oil by off-shore drilling and denigrating Obama's policy ban on this.
> 
> What a flip flop!  :





LOL, check this out!!!

Obama shifts, says he may back offshore drilling

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Friday he would be willing to support limited additional offshore oil drilling if that's what it takes to enact a comprehensive policy to foster fuel-efficient autos and develop alternate energy sources.

Shifting from his previous opposition to expanded offshore drilling, the Illinois senator told a Florida newspaper he could get behind a compromise with Republicans and oil companies to prevent gridlock over energy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/ap_on_el_pr/obama

*I posted this under the Obama thread too, Al Gore's not going to like this!!*

Too funny


----------



## Doris (2 August 2008)

noirua said:


> McCain voted against [*reducing*] dependence on foreign oil as he knows that nothing much will happen in the next eight years. Green fuel will increase 10 fold in that time but will still account for nothing much.
> *Funding renewable energy is a waste of time*, it will have its day, with Uranium, in thirty years time.






> Obama, great man as he is, will have to get bundles of cash in, to fund all his expensive policies. With the US in decline there will be less cash around.




Just as in our own budgets, priorities must change to pay for our needs rather than neglect them by paying for our wants.

Obama has solicited Europe to contribute to global _needs_ to help reduce US debits and enable focus on internal _needs_. Wealthy companies are profitable because they mobilize their money and create employment but the tax burden is not fair nor equitable. Tax coffers are the basis of a government's budget.

You should not plan for your retirement at 59.  The sooner you start the earlier you will achieve your optimum goal.  Both today's needs and the future's needs must be balanced... not merely basking in your lifestyle of today only.



> McCain knows that it is oil and mining companies that are farthest ahead in the advancement of green energy.




David E Kelly uses _Boston Legal_ as his forum for revealing discrepancies within the gov't and corporations.  He backs his accusations with documentary evidence. 

A recent topic was an oil company donating millions of dollars to a university under the official guise of research for alternative green energy.  Yet the faculty head was bound to NOT make effort on this in order to receive funding for other university research.  The aim was to officially appear to be contributing to an effort for alternative energy whilst preserving oil dependence.  

This would be one of Wayne's many disillusionments.


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Olbermann interviewing Brendan Freedman , US veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan wars...





To all those that like to quote Keith Olbermann, catch this link, and see what Obama's biggest media supporter in the U.S. thinks about older Americans:

Olbermann Mocks the Elderly as '65 to Dead'

by Brad Wilmouth

On Friday's Countdown, during the show's "Worst Person in the World" segment, MSNBC host Keith Olbermann tried to characterize the ratings of his show as more admirable than than those of FNC's highly watched O'Reilly Factor by narrowly citing viewing figures among younger demographics. Olbermann, who has a history of quoting the viewing figures for those 25-54 years old -- citing their value to advertisers -- to make himself appear more competitive with O'Reilly, on this occasion dismissively referred to older viewers as "65 to dead." Olbermann: "But don't worry, Bill, you're still dominating that important demographic, 65 to dead." Notably, in June 2006, Olbermann gloated that O'Reilly's viewers are "dying off."

the rest of the article is linked below:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2008/08/02/olbermann-mocks-elderly-65-dead

Keith Olbermann's "Countdown" is the only U.S. Cable News show that allows no views from the right.  That is right, the *ONLY* one.  Even the dreaded Fox News has all views represented on *EVERY* show.

What a lovely guy this fool Olbermann.   He is truly pathetic.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> What a lovely guy this fool Olbermann.   He is truly pathetic.



zzd, 
 If you're defending OReilly , that says it all .


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> zzd,
> If you're defending OReilly , that says it all .




Uh, no, I'm pointing out what a pathetic human being Olbermann is.  Everyone that knows me knows that I am no defender of O'Reilly either.  They are both blowhards, but at least O'Reilly has debates with people of different points of view.  Olbermann doesn't have the courage to have a debate with anyone.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 August 2008)

ZzzzDad]Olbermann said:


> Uh, no, I'm pointing out what a pathetic human being Olbermann is.




So you take major objection - "pathetic human being" etc - to the fact that Olbermann makes a joke about oldies,  a joke incidentally, that most oldies would also laugh at.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> .. at least O'Reilly has debates with people of different points of view.



ZZD 
Here's an example of O'Reilly "debating" Dawkins.  

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=256878&highlight=o'reilly#post256878


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ZZD
> Here's an example of O'Reilly "debating" Dawkins.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=256878&highlight=o'reilly#post256878





Actually, unless you have an agenda, that link provides quite a respectful and reasonable debate.  The second video is counting minutes and seconds?  Geesh.  I've seen Bill O'Reilly when he has been bombastic and all, but this one was not one of them.

Olbermann's show is all one sided, and you have not addressed that.  His ideal government would be a left wing dictatorship.

By the way, I remember a few years ago when Olbermann loved McCain - when McCain was poking GWB in the eye at every opportunity.  John McCain should have known that the tide would turn against him in the main stream media when he got the Republican nomination, and he was up against THE OBAMA or any other Democrat.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> 1.... that link provides quite a respectful and reasonable debate.  ....
> 
> 2. I've seen Bill O'Reilly when he has been bombastic and all, but this one was not one of them.
> 
> ...




1.  You call that debate reasonable? -  We are never gonna agree on that one   moving on ......

2.  Any worse than that, and he might as well not let the guest say a word - like arguing with my mother in law sheesh.   

3. and 4.  I believe that these contradict each other.  Olbermann is prepared to give a polly a fair hearing, but he is ruthless at exposing political trickery.   

5. You'd agree I think that McCain is the Republican candidate because he bears the least resemblance to GW Bush.  The Republicans are on the nose, and McCain has a hell of a job to turn the Obama tide surely. 

PS Interesting incidentally that Rupert Murdoch (Mr Fox News) himself is backing Obama.  :-


 Rupert Murdoch Says Obama Will Win



> 3m40s mark:-
> Rupert:  Obama is Highly intelligent, great record at Harvard, a complete break with the past ; I just hope that he's as good as he promises.
> 
> Question: Did you have anything to do with the New York Post endorsing him in the Dem Primary in NY State
> ...


----------



## skint (3 August 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unlike those on the left, people on the right are not one dimensional.
> 
> One can abhor godbotherers and still induce them to vote for one's own preferred candidate, who for their own reasons prefer him or her.
> 
> ...




You could include me in many there:
Pro choice - wouldn't like people preaching at me over that sort of an issue, so why would I presume that I could preach to others. Personal decisions are just that - personal.

Anti indiginenous intervention - like all the other efforts from both sides of politics, hasn't worked. Don't have the answers, and don't know anyone that does. Difficult one that will take a generation or two I expect. Too serious an issue though, to throw in the towel.

Read SMH - can't stand the tabloids and prefer it to The Australian. On economics, Ross Gittens is a good read. For years, when Howard was in power, he shot holes in his economic failings such as continually fueling inflation and higher interest rates with outrageous spending. We know how that story ended. He is also critical of Rudd. Whilst spending less than Howard, he needed to go much further to rectify the situation in his first budget. Can't be more balanced than that.

Anti Murdoch - couldn't care one way or another about Rupert. I just don't care that much about Nicole's latest nipple rings and garbage media. He's no fool though. Is backing Obama, which is smart if things go the way they appear to be. He also pointed out that McCain knows diddley squat about economic issues. Strangely, McCain has stated the same.

Pro sorry - yesterday's news. Some reported that it helped. No skin off my nose.

Anti development and progress - depends on whether the development contributes to progress. I think it's possible to have lots of development and lots of progress without destroying everything else along the way. For example the skyway through the daintree is a win/win for the daintree and the people who make a whack of money from it. Same for the Franklin. The revenue from preserving it dwarfs any benefits that damming it would have had. 

Tree hugger - whilst I appreciate the need for preserving unique places, I can't see how hugging a tree helps me or the tree.

$200,000 pa cushy job - sigh, no.


----------



## ZzzzDad (4 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Olbermann is prepared to give a polly a fair hearing





Ha Ha, that's a good one!!

Are you a comedian?  Either that, or you haven't been watching Olbermann for the last 5 years.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha Ha, that's a good one!!
> 
> Are you a comedian?  Either that, or you haven't been watching Olbermann for the last 5 years.



well ZZ, most would agree that only a comedian would say that OReilly was fair with Dawkins.
 I suspect you're the one with the agenda
 but no problems, we move on.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 August 2008)

skint said:


> You could include me in many there:
> Pro choice - wouldn't like people preaching at me over that sort of an issue, so why would I presume that I could preach to others. Personal decisions are just that - personal.
> 
> Anti indiginenous intervention - like all the other efforts from both sides of politics, hasn't worked. Don't have the answers, and don't know anyone that does. Difficult one that will take a generation or two I expect. Too serious an issue though, to throw in the towel.
> ...




I wish more on the left were like you.

gg


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## noirua (6 August 2008)

Recent polls are starting to swing in favour of John McCain as the economy weakens. The worse it gets the more they need a proven tough guy as Commander in Chief.


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 August 2008)

skint]Murdoch ..... He's no fool though. Is backing Obama said:


> Recent polls are starting to swing in favour of John McCain as the economy weakens. The worse it gets the more they need a proven tough guy as Commander in Chief.




One thing's for sure, he has a proven record of "bare-knuckle, no-moves-barred" politics, not that he always wins.... 



> The 2000 battle between Bush and McCain for South Carolina has entered American political lore as one of the nastiest, dirtiest, and most brutal ever.




PS McCain ain't no academic noi...  :-


> "graduated from the Naval Academy in 1958; he was sixth from the bottom in class rank, 894th out of 899."


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha Ha, that's a good one!!
> 
> Are you a comedian?  Either that, or you haven't been watching Olbermann for the last 5 years.



ZZ
I assume if you've been watching Olbermann for the last 5 years 

a) you find him tolerable,  and

b) you saw this one lol - good for a laugh, plus the odd F word   - 
(PS what an absolute nurd OReilly is lol) 

 THE REAL BILL O'REILLY Caught on Video & Olbermann Loves It


----------



## ZzzzDad (7 August 2008)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/25/keith-olbermanns-idea-for_n_98557.html

Keith Olbermann's Idea For Beating Hillary: Literally Beating Hillary

.........................

Olbermann was discussing the election with Newsweek's Howard Fineman, a frequent guest. They topic was, how can a winner finally be determined in this never-ending Democratic race for the nomination? Of course, the assumption was that it was Clinton that should be shown the door (despite clearly still earning her spot in the race thanks to, um, voters). Fineman said that, all the delegate math aside, ultimately it was going to take "some adults somewhere in the Democratic party to step in and stop this thing, like a referee in a fight that could go on for thirty rounds. Those are the super, super, super delegates who are going to have to decide this."

*Said Olbermann: "Right. Somebody who can take her into a room and only he comes out." *

Olbermann is a pathetic woman hating jerk.  If you want to defend him, that is okay, as I have said, O'Reilly is no saint, but Olbermann is 10 times worse.


----------



## ZzzzDad (7 August 2008)

Get banished from Countdown with Keith Olbermann if you don't follow the Obama script 100%:

*Milbank's move*

by Michael Calderone

http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0808/Milbanks_Move.html?showall

Yesterday, I wrote on Dana Milbank’s abrupt departure from “Countdown With Keith Olbermann,” which at first seemed to directly follow a disagreement over the Washington Post columnist’s July 30 column calling Obama “presumptuous.”

However, Milbank’s dissatisfaction with the show started before any controversy over the Obama piece or questions from Olbermann about misquoting the Democratic candidate, according to sources.

A source familiar with the situation told Politico that Milbank had been unhappy on the show for a couple of months and expressed this sentiment to friends. But it wasn't until directly after an incident last month that Milbank made a move.

During the first week of July, Milbank spoke to executive producer Katy Karp about why he had not been on the show for a couple of weeks. At that point, Milbank was told that there was an issue among staff with something positive he said the previous month about Charlie Black, a McCain senior adviser.

Here's the exchange from June 23, where Olbermann talked to Milbank on-air about Black’s statement to Fortune magazine, that a terrorist attack would be a “big advantage” for the McCain campaign.

OLBERMANN: But where do we go in terms of this story from here? Does McCain have to, whether he likes it or not, fire Charlie Black or face having this bell along with other bells around his neck all summer and all fall?

MILBANK: Well, he's going to wait and see. I imagine they are certainly going to hope that this becomes a 24-hour thing that blows over. Which it well could be, depending on what events happen in the coming days. But if it keeps being brought back to them, they'll have to take some action here.

The irony here is that Charlie Black is a very soft-spoken, well-liked figure, and this does seem rather out of character for him to sound off in this way.

****************************

*Even a mild praise of a Republican evokes banishment by Olbermann*

And the funny thing is, Milbank has always been a good little soldier in Olbermann's propaganda army before this!!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 August 2008)

John McCain is starting to pull back on B Obama's lead in the polls. 

The beginning

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/14/today-s-polls-barack-s-bad-day.aspx

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 August 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> John McCain is starting to pull back on B Obama's lead in the polls.
> 
> The beginning
> 
> ...




Obama is at a standstill in the polls. Honest John will get there.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (20 August 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Obama is at a standstill in the polls. Honest John will get there.
> 
> gg




Below is a good site, it explains why Obama has jumped the shark at Berlin and how the polls show him in decline to a great American,  candidate, John McCain.


http://thenewcurrencylad.blogspot.com/2008/08/maxed-out-messianism.html

gg


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2008)

Thankfully, McCain picking up on Obama is giving us a reprieve from the Obamamania in the English press... and I suppose 16 gold medals has helped push Obama aside as well.

Dreading November.


----------



## ZzzzDad (21 August 2008)

McCain takes 5-point lead
over Obama-Reuters poll
Reuters, by John Whitesides

In a sharp turnaround, Republican John McCain has opened a 5-point lead on Democrat Barack Obama in the U.S. presidential race and is seen as a stronger manager of the economy, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday. McCain leads Obama among likely U.S. voters by 46 percent to 41 percent, wiping out Obama's solid 7-point advantage in July and taking his first lead in the monthly Reuters/Zogby poll. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUKN1948672420080820?sp=true

Landslide by November.  Obama won't win more than 10 states.  He is going to prove to be a very weak candidate.


----------



## ZzzzDad (21 August 2008)

Missouri is supposedly one of the swing states that Obama needs, but he is sinking there fast:



Poll: McCain expands lead
over Obama in Missouri
St. Louis Business Journal, by Staff

John McCain has expanded his lead over Barack Obama in Missouri, a new survey says. 

McCain's advantage is 50-40, a seven-point increase from Public Policy Polling's July poll, which showed him leading by three points. 

Obama's biggest issue is with white voters, who support McCain by a 56-35 margin, observers say. 

"There aren't enough black voters in Missouri for Barack Obama to win it if he can't make things more competitive among white voters," said Dean Debnam, president of Public Policy Polling, in a statement. "That's going to be his challenge if he wants to have any chance at winning the state." 

McCain leads across every age group and has the advantage with both men and women, the poll shows. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2008/08/18/daily54.html


----------



## ZzzzDad (24 August 2008)

August 23, 2008, 6:43 am 
McCain Rolls Out New Ad With Biden’s Words
By Kate Phillips
Just three hours after the Obama campaign sent out its text announcement, the McCain campaign rolled out its first ad this morning, using Senator Joe Biden’s own words during the primary season about Senator Barack Obama. 

From a debate in 2007, a clip shows Mr. Biden standing next to Mr. Obama. George Stephanopoulos of ABC News queried Mr. Biden: “You were asked, “Is he ready?” You said, ‘I think he can be ready but right now, I don’t believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.’”

Mr. Biden: “I think that I stand by the statement.”

In addition, the McCain ad uses footage from another TV appearance, where Mr. Biden said, “I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off.”




The McCain campaign said the ad would begin running in battleground states.


----------



## Julia (24 August 2008)

ZzzzDad, isn't McCain's anti-abortion stand going to disadvantage him amongst female voters?

And are you comfortable with his suggestion that the US will stay in Iraq "for ever if necessary"?

Is McCain the ideal candidate for you, or is he simply less awful than Obama?
(e.g. I don't care for either of them)


----------



## ZzzzDad (24 August 2008)

Julia said:


> ZzzzDad, isn't McCain's anti-abortion stand going to disadvantage him amongst female voters?
> 
> And are you comfortable with his suggestion that the US will stay in Iraq "for ever if necessary"?
> 
> ...




You might find this hard to believe, but in America, women are the ones that are the most pro-life.  Many men love the convenience of abortion.  More women vote the pro-life position than men.

As you probably know, McCain didn't mean he wanted to stay in Iraq for a 100 years, he meant it in the context of Japan and Germany.  We are still there 63 years later, but are strong allies with a strong alliance.  The Democrats intentionally mislead people on the "100 year" quote.  They have no shame.

I am not a big McCain fan, he was not my first choice.  But Obama is scary.  No experience.  Very naive.  Crazy on raising taxes in a recession or near recession.  Double capital gains taxes in a recession?  Yikes.


----------



## skint (24 August 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Below is a good site, it explains why Obama has jumped the shark at Berlin and how the polls show him in decline to a great American,  candidate, John McCain.
> 
> 
> http://thenewcurrencylad.blogspot.com/2008/08/maxed-out-messianism.html
> ...




Hi GG, 
 In the Costello thread, I listed half a dozen examples of economic reform under Labor, but struggled to find evidence during Cosello's stint as treasurer. You responded by posting that rather than getting bogged down in "economic waffle", the only you evidence you needed for good economic management was that several of your mates went belly up during Labor, and many others had done well during the Coalition years. 

The US economy has royally tanked, home foreclosures are at record highs, consumer spending is plummeting....you know the story. By your own argument, is it safe to assume that you are now a strong supporter of the Democrats winning office? 

As previously noted, McCain came 394 out of 399 at the naval academy, admits to knowing nothing about the economy and to being incapable of turning on a computer. Strangely, the more the US goes down the gurgler, the higher McCain's polling on the economy. Still, I wouldn't be totally surprised if he gets up. This is the same country that re-elected (notwithstanding some shonky vote counting) G.W. Bush, who, politics aside, is a bit light on in the brains department. 

Obama may not be the great saviour, but even his harshest critics recognise he's a smart cookie, and geez Louise, look at the alternative! If the voters actually watch the debates, they could be pivotal. McCain doesn't have prayer. If they switched policies, McCain still wouldn't have a prayer. It may not be necessary to have a genius as President, but surely it requires someone with a reasonable  command of the most important issues.

Just as a foot note, although some of the the current ecomomic woes in the US are attributable to yet another inevitable cycle, the Republicans do need to be held to account for fuelling the fire by sending the deficit into the stratosphere, greasing the palms of the wealthy at the expense of the others and so on. Let's not forget that the neo-cons, ie. the same mob that helped create the mess nationally and internationally, haven't gone anywhere. They've just been repackaged like a sub-prime loan.


----------



## Julia (24 August 2008)

With apologies for interrupting this thread, Skint could you take a look at the Costello thread.  I posted a question to you there about Mr Swan which I hope you might answer.
With thanks
Julia


----------



## CanOz (24 August 2008)

You know, i've stopped caring about who is going to win the election. No one is going to have the political resolve or the time in office to do whats really needed for the American people. So what they are going to have is a president that is intent on staying in office and will do and spend, whatever it takes.

The US is doomed, plain and simple.

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## ZzzzDad (25 August 2008)

CanOz said:


> The US is doomed, plain and simple.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...




People have been saying that for decades, yet America keeps going and going.  I couldn't imagine saying that about Australia.  America and Australia's best days are ahead of us.

Doom and gloomers always wind up being wrong.


----------



## CanOz (25 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> yet America keeps going and going.




Thats credit for you.

Wake up. Interpret the facts and realise you are whitnessing the fall of the US Empire, history in the making. 

Read the article in this thread...https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12107


----------



## ZzzzDad (25 August 2008)

As I said, gloom and doomers never win.  

I read the entire article, and it sounds like every gloom and doom article I've ever read over the last 30 years. 

Instead of the gloom and doom, you will see the biggest rebound since the early '80s.  


America will be fine.   The world is not coming to an end.

I live in America, and can tell you that America is NOT about to collapse.  We are just retrenching for our next leap forward.

Cheers


----------



## wildkactus (25 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> America will be fine.   The world is not coming to an end.
> 
> I live in America, and can tell you that America is NOT about to collapse.  We are just retrenching for our next leap forward.
> 
> Cheers




Got to agree with you here, America will recover and move on.
It may not be the power house it once was, but it will be up there. No one stays on top for ever it always changes, you only have to look at the Brits.

anyway, the guy in the office at the end of the day has a large machine behind him, it these guys that need to be the best around, as its these guy's that come up with the ideas that the prez puts to the public. and i beleive that the Republicans have the best behind the man team, but we will see in 60 odd days, what the American people think.


----------



## CanOz (25 August 2008)

This is the mostly factually deprived thread on the whole site. 

You are living with your head up your bum people. The election is a joke, no one can help you because they will have to spend so much to keep themselves in office and prop up the sick economy. Expect to see more changes to the way stats are collected and reported in order to brighten things up for the gullible public..:screwy:

Have fun.

CanOz


----------



## Knobby22 (26 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> Got to agree with you here, America will recover and move on.
> It may not be the power house it once was, but it will be up there. No one stays on top for ever it always changes, you only have to look at the Brits.
> 
> anyway, the guy in the office at the end of the day has a large machine behind him, it these guys that need to be the best around, as its these guy's that come up with the ideas that the prez puts to the public. and i beleive that the Republicans have the best behind the man team, but we will see in 60 odd days, what the American people think.




Yes, the Repblican team, they are so successful. Made Bush one of the most successful Presidents ever.


----------



## Calliope (26 August 2008)

I can emphasise with the contributors on this thread and the Obama thread who are concerned at the Republican's pesky habit of foisting dumb Presidents on America and the world. After all if it hadn't been for the dumb stubborness of Ronald Reagan we could now be living in the utopian world of International Communism. And all those nasty capitalists, having been identified as enemies of the state. would be in Gulags.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> I can emphasise with the contributors on this thread and the Obama thread who are concerned at the Republican's pesky habit of foisting dumb Presidents on America and the world. After all if it hadn't been for the dumb stubborness of Ronald Reagan we could now be living in the utopian world of International Communism. And all those nasty capitalists, having been identified as enemies of the state. would be in Gulags.




Hey, Reagan was pretty smart though in his second term he started to get Alzhiemers.
He did what he wanted and he was a man of great vision. 
Even so, he didn't bring down communism alone, I think Thatcher and the Pope were given a lot of kudos for that also.

Bush fell for what his cronies wanted hook, line and sinker. He has hurt the average American and the world by his policies. He should not be compared in the same breath as Reagan.

I am for McCain winning as the US people need to get their democracy back and another disastrous Republican term should finally wake them up. The government is meant to be for the people, not for the elite.


----------



## wildkactus (26 August 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, the Repblican team, they are so successful. Made Bush one of the most successful Presidents ever.




He may not go down as a good president and I will say that he has a bad image.
Go have a Look at what has been achieved not just the headlines.


----------



## Julia (26 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> He may not go down as a good president and I will say that he has a bad image.
> Go have a Look at what has been achieved not just the headlines.




Could you list what you feel are Mr Bush's achievements for us?


----------



## wildkactus (26 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Could you list what you feel are Mr Bush's achievements for us?




these are just some I can think of.
- No child left behind
- AIDS & Malaria Treatments
- Senior citizen drug program & Health savings accounts
- The African-American and Hispanic education programs
- Tax Cuts
- the weapon disarmament packs

The war on terror has overshadowed most of this presidency, and some of these programs should have been taken further.


----------



## CanOz (26 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> these are just some I can think of.
> - No child left behind
> - AIDS & Malaria Treatments
> - Senior citizen drug program & Health savings accounts
> ...




Sr.Drug program has been and will be a disaster for the people, and a boon for the drug companies...do your homework.

The tax cuts are politically motiveted only for the benefit of getting reelected...they are of no benefit to the general public. They have less to spend on programs as a result but haven't curbed spending??? What the?

Bush is a nut, a fool, and a front for Dick and his mates.

CanOz


----------



## Julia (26 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> these are just some I can think of.



Oh God, it sounds like Kevin O7 all over again!



> - No child left behind



Why am I reminded of Bob Hawke's "No child will ever live in poverty"?
What exactly did this cute statement actually mean and/or achieve?
Does it mean that every American child has in the time of Mr Bush received a stable home life and a good education, along with first class medical services?  If not, then any child who does not receive those things will be "left behind".




> - AIDS & Malaria Treatments



For whom?   Is there anything new or different here anyway?   Don't most of the countries in the OECD contribute substantially to foreign aid, at least some of which will be destined for treating both these scourges?




> - Senior citizen drug program & Health savings accounts



Could you explain what this is?   Promotion of pharmaceuticals by the multinational drug companies in return for their generous election fund contributions?   "Health Savings Accounts":  What are these?   Wouldn't it be better to make good quality health care available for free to alll American citizens?  Happy to be corrected on either count.




> - The African-American and Hispanic education programs



Well whoop de do!   Good to know Mr Bush believes in educating other than white folk.



> - Tax Cuts



As here in Australia, bribery to the populace.   Possibly some justification in the USA on the basis of their failing economy.  But at the time they were proposed here, no such excuse can be made.    




> - the weapon disarmament packs



Sounds fascinating.  Could you explain what this is about.
Perhaps to stop school children taking guns to school to kill one another?




> The war on terror has overshadowed most of this presidency, and some of these programs should have been taken further.




And on top of it all, after all this time, the bloke still can't say "nuclear".
I know I'm a pedant, but how can you have a leader of the so called free world who can't pronounce a simple three syllable word!


----------



## wildkactus (26 August 2008)

CanOz said:


> Sr.Drug program has been and will be a disaster for the people, and a boon for the drug companies...do your homework.
> 
> The tax cuts are politically motiveted only for the benefit of getting reelected...they are of no benefit to the general public. They have less to spend on programs as a result but haven't curbed spending??? What the?
> 
> ...




I guess your against helping 32million people get cheaper life saving drugs then.
the drugs have to come from somewhere and if the drug companies make money so be it.

yes tax cuts are a vote grabber but at least they were done, off no benefit to the public you should go ask joe public. 
and yes they do need to cut spending but doesn't every western country.

Agree he is a nut but its the party I support not the man, the man is just the mouth piece for the party no matter what party GOP or Dem's.


----------



## CanOz (26 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> I guess your against helping 32million people get cheaper life saving drugs then.
> the drugs have to come from somewhere and if the drug companies make money so be it.
> 
> yes tax cuts are a vote grabber but at least they were done, off no benefit to the public you should go ask joe public.
> ...




I'm a canuck Kactus, so I'm for free health care, education and prescriptions....but I'm also not naive enough to think that you can cut taxes and still have good social programs....so I'm also in favor of fair taxes.

CanOz


----------



## wayneL (27 August 2008)

wildkactus said:


> I guess your against helping 32million people get cheaper life saving drugs then.
> the drugs have to come from somewhere and if the drug companies make money so be it.
> 
> yes tax cuts are a vote grabber but at least they were done, off no benefit to the public you should go ask joe public.
> ...



This always leaves me a little bemused... a lot bemused in fact.

Why on earth would a non-American support any American political party? WTF?

The banter and debate is all a bit of fun, but I've seen "Vote for (insert candidate)" all over the internet from non-Americans.

What's this all about?


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 August 2008)

A classic recently - McCain's press secretary or similar saying that "Americans don't like any presidential candidate who is popular overseas"
- and "hence the swing to McCain since the Berlin speech (to a massive crowd)".

"I mean" he said "We left Europe to get away from them".

Next they'll wonder why no one wants to follow them into the next trumped up war.


----------



## websman (27 August 2008)

I love reading a foreign perspective on US politics!   LOL

The United States of America is, and always will be THE major political and military power of the world.  Regardless of who becomes president, the American people will prevail.  We are a very determined and stubborn bunch and would never allow another country to invade our shores, without putting up one heck of a fight.  We are armed to the teeth and are not afraid to defend our freedom!  I would gladly die for my country....

As Hank Williams Jr said.... "A country boy can survive"


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 August 2008)

websman said:


> We are armed to the teeth and are not afraid to defend our freedom!  I would gladly die for my country....




question is websman, - forgetting defence for a minute , would you happily attack Iraq if you had your time again.


----------



## CanOz (27 August 2008)

websman said:


> I love reading a foreign perspective on US politics!   LOL
> 
> The United States of America is, and always will be THE major political and military power of the world.  Regardless of who becomes president, the American people will prevail.  We are a very determined and stubborn bunch and would never allow another country to invade our shores, without putting up one heck of a fight.  We are armed to the teeth and are not afraid to defend our freedom!  I would gladly die for my country....
> 
> As Hank Williams Jr said.... "A country boy can survive"




I love listening to Americans who think the world loves them, when the truth is the world is sick and tired of the US government, its foreign policies, its pathetic presidents and its greedy, selfish, totally unsocialistic focus on capital.

The real funny thing is its people know less about the real state of their nation than outsiders because of the media slant. I laugh at the guys that come here and watch CNN, because it has a European and Asian slant to it. They say "wow the news is different here", "our economy is really bad hey?" and "we're not really liked that much are we?"

Americans are very nice people, but their political system is influenced too much by lobbyists and corporate interests. The terms are too long for presidents, the election process is too costly, and the every day joe doesn't even have to vote.

One thing is for sure though, whoever wins the election will continue to keep the American people living in fear, toting guns and killing each other on their own shores, while occasionally invading the odd resource rich nation while trying to explain why its justified to the UN.

Vulcan, nobody will ever invade the US, because nobody wants anything from you, and certainly nobody wants to live there, unless they are wealthy of course. Canada, Australia, and China are much better places to live IMO, and i have lived in them all.

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## websman (27 August 2008)

CanOz said:


> I love listening to Americans who think the world loves them, when the truth is the world is sick and tired of the US government, its foreign policies, its pathetic presidents and its greedy, selfish, totally unsocialistic focus on capital.




To be honest, I don't care what the rest of the world thinks...



CanOz said:


> The real funny thing is its people know less about the real state of their nation than outsiders because of the media slant. I laugh at the guys that come here and watch CNN, because it has a European and Asian slant to it. They say "wow the news is different here", "our economy is really bad hey?" and "we're not really liked that much are we?"




Uh....I don't need the media to form my opinion.   
The economy is bad???   Yea right!  LOL  Our standard of living is still much higher than most of the world, plus we enjoy more freedoms.



CanOz said:


> Americans are very nice people, but their political system is influenced too much by lobbyists and corporate interests. The terms are too long for presidents, the election process is too costly, and the every day joe doesn't even have to vote.




Thanks for calling us nice!    But...You're wrong,  I do have a vote!



CanOz said:


> One thing is for sure though, whoever wins the election will continue to keep the American people living in fear, toting guns and killing each other on their own shores, while occasionally invading the odd resource rich nation while trying to explain why its justified to the UN.



*I do not live in fear!!!*  The right to bear arms is a freedom, guaranteed by our constitution.  I am proud of the fact that I can own a gun, in order to defend myself.  I do not own a gun so I can kill others on my own shores, as you implied!



CanOz said:


> Vulcan, nobody will ever invade the US, because nobody wants anything from you, and certainly nobody wants to live there, unless they are wealthy of course. Canada, Australia, and China are much better places to live IMO, and i have lived in them all.




*BULL****!!!!*  A lot of people want to live here!  China is a better place???   I've been to China....I know better. LOL   China is a communist country!  

Yes, Canada and Australia are great countries and are wonderful places to live, but the USA is *not*the horrible country you make it out to be. Go live in China, if you love it so much.



CanOz[/QUOTE]


----------



## Aboundz (27 August 2008)

> Go live in China, if you love it so much.




He does, he has voted with his feet.


----------



## wayneL (27 August 2008)

websman said:


> I love reading a foreign perspective on US politics!



US foreign policy does impact the rest of the world, hence the interest in which president is going to piss us off the most.

But as I've stated already, it is bemusing that much of the comment is as if the reader has a vote. We see that even here on ASF in this and the Obama thread. That's a big WTF for me! I mean, WTF?



websman said:


> the American people will prevail.




I agree. But they need a big wake up call. Once the US economy crashes and burns from the sins of successive administrations, the perverted Keynesian experiment, and a totally inappropriate form of monetarism, they will wake up and they will pull a miracle out of their @rse.

It might be too late for continued economic hegemony though, as China will have its ears pinned back on its neck and going for the doctor. But America will do alright again at some point in the future.

***

I'll be glad when this election is all over.


----------



## websman (27 August 2008)

Aboundz said:


> He does, he has voted with his feet.




Ohhhhh....You're right.   Actually, I really like the Chinese people a lot.  It's their government that sucks.  LOL


----------



## ZzzzDad (27 August 2008)

CanOz said:


> Vulcan, nobody will ever invade the US, because nobody wants anything from you, and certainly nobody wants to live there, unless they are wealthy of course. Canada, Australia, and China are much better places to live IMO, and i have lived in them all.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...




This must be the funniest statement I have ever seen in my life.

Tens of millions of Mexicans, Central Americans, South Americans, Vietnamese, Chinese (smuggled here by the thousands every montsh), Indians, etc., etc., etc., want to be here legally, or illegally.

Have you been living under a rock?

Probably the most uninformed statement I have ever seen on any forum evah!!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 August 2008)

Websman, nice sidestep of the question of "defending" yourselves by attacking Iraq  

And likewise ZZDad - your comment that Americans know that McCain has done more for POW/MIA than anyone (paraphrased) and others don't - when I posted the evidence that you were wrong - and that he is fought them all the way.


----------



## 2020hindsight (27 August 2008)

As the Poms used to say (back in their empire building days) ... 
There are two ways of attaining power - with a bayonet, or prestige. 
Of those, prestige is preferable.


----------



## ZzzzDad (27 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Websman, nice sidestep of the question of "defending" yourselves by attacking Iraq
> 
> And likewise ZZDad - your comment that Americans know that McCain has done more for POW/MIA than anyone (paraphrased) and others don't - when I posted the evidence that you were wrong - and that he is fought them all the way.




2020, if this story had any LEGS, the left wing MSM in this country would be all over it.  They are not.  The media in this country will do anything they can to get Obama elected, and they know that this "story" would backfire, because McCain's record on POW/MIA is so strong.

This is one subject even they won't touch.  Go ahead and keep reading Moveon, DailyKos, and Huffingtonpost and whatever blogs you are reading and pretend you are living in reality.

You are taking the right wing fringe at face value - do you even realize this?  The left wing fringe is using the right wing fringe to try to get at McCain.  Astounding.  The right wing fringe groups hate McCain as much as the leftwing fringers do.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 August 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/29/2349677.htm?section=justin



> Putin accuses US of provoking Georgian conflict
> By Washington correspondent Michael Rowland
> 
> Posted 2 hours 33 minutes ago
> ...




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=301753&highlight=war#post301753



> PREDICTIONS
> ...
> Election’s upon us – let’s fabricate war
> it shuts up the doves so the war hawks can soar
> ...


----------



## ZzzzDad (29 August 2008)

So, you reveal yourself 2020.  You take Putin's words at face value.

Says a lot about your mindset.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 August 2008)

Lemme guess zzd, 
you think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone 

PS Do I believe Putin? - who knows ? - just that it was a coincidence I predicted something might happen in a post a few months ago. 



> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2349782.htm
> TONY EASTLEY: Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the United States of orchestrating the conflict in Georgia for domestic political purposes.
> 
> Mr Putin says he's been told by his defence officials the war was triggered to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.
> ...






> VLADIMIR PUTIN (translated): The fact is that US citizens were indeed in the area in conflict during the hostilities. Then it should be admitted that they would do so only following direct orders from *their supervisors*. Therefore, they were acting in implementing those orders. Doing as they were ordered and the only one who can give such orders is their supervisors.
> 
> MICHAEL ROWLAND: Mr Putin didn't elaborate on just which candidate he was talking about but the *conflict has certainly played to Republican John McCain's strengths in foreign policy*.



Foreign lunacy more like it ..   "I say we stay in Iraq for 100years - Why Not??


> Needless to say the remarks have infuriated the Americans. White House spokeswoman Dana Perino has been quick to reject Mr Putin's allegations.
> 
> DANA PERINO: I think that those claims, first and foremost, are patently false but it also sounds like his defence officials who said that they believed this to be true, are giving him really bad advice.
> 
> ...




poultry ? poultry ? 
Just another poultry matter ?


----------



## ZzzzDad (29 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Lemme guess zzd,
> you think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone
> 
> PS Do I believe Putin? - who knows ? - just that it was a coincidence I predicted something might happen in a post a few months ago.





Conspiracy theorist I am not.


----------



## Doris (29 August 2008)

Yes 2020... you are often prescient!

Go find a 10-12 year old movie called 'Canadian Bacon', with John Candy, in the archives of video stores.  

There was an election looming and advisers insisted there had to be a war or the incumbent party would lose.  They tried Russia etc but no go.  So they decided it had to be Canada.  News alarms: Canadians have lined up 90% of all their people along the Canadian/US border. (lol)  They went up and dumped rubbish, graffitied swear words to try to ignite Canadian hostility.  Fab movie.



> Moscow accuses Georgia of provoking Russia's offensive in the ex-Soviet republic by *launching an assault targeting South Ossetia on Aug. 7*. The United States has close ties with the Georgian government and has trained Georgian units, including for service in Iraq.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/28/world/main4391115.shtml

Surely the date of the first offensive can be determined?
As far as I know our news only reported when Russia attacked... unprovoked!



> Georgia tried to retake the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia this month by force after a series of clashes.
> 
> *Russian forces subsequently launched a counter-attack* and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and another rebel region, Abkhazia, and an EU-brokered ceasefire.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm

Obviously Russia doesn't want McCain...
It seems it could be Russia creating the scenario... Why would they provoke now and give McCain credibility?
Do they really think Obama would be soft on their aggression?

or... maybe Putin's claim holds water?  
Desperate times call for desperate measure after all.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Yes 2020... you are often prescient!
> 
> Go find a 10-12 year old movie called 'Canadian Bacon', with John Candy, in the archives of video stores.
> 
> ...




I hate conspiracy theories but could anyone in the US honestly hold up their right hands and swear that they can trust their present government to not have asked the Georgians to attack? And why are the US all over this country?


----------



## numbercruncher (29 August 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> I hate conspiracy theories but could anyone in the US honestly hold up their right hands and swear that they can trust their present government to not have asked the Georgians to attack? And why are the US all over this country?





Bush as lacky for the NWO order guys ( Merger of zionists , neocons etc ) picks a big fight with the plan of helping Mccain get voted in as President so they can continue their evil march towards world domination/rule under the guise of Globalisation.

Just a thought ....


----------



## Knobby22 (29 August 2008)

[/







numbercruncher said:


> Bush as lacky for the NWO order guys ( Merger of zionists , neocons etc ) picks a big fight with the plan of helping Mccain get voted in as President so they can continue their evil march towards world domination/rule under the guise of Globalisation.
> 
> Just a thought ....




Very extreme thought. 

No, *think like a politician.*

They just want to get re-elected.


----------



## ZzzzDad (29 August 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> I hate conspiracy theories but could anyone in the US honestly hold up their right hands and swear that they can trust their present government to not have asked the Georgians to attack? And why are the US all over this country?




I hearby hold up my hand and say NO they did not ask the Georgians to attack.  In fact they discouraged it.

Russia wants to control Georgia because of the oil pipeline that runs through it.  They want a pipeline monopoly to Europe and the the former Soviet "Republics".  They have used their own pipelines to blackmail the Europeans.  Well known fact by the way, just ask the Europeans.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> I hearby hold up my hand and say NO they did not ask the Georgians to attack.  In fact they discouraged it.
> 
> Russia wants to control Georgia because of the oil pipeline that runs through it.  They want a pipeline monopoly to Europe and the the former Soviet "Republics".  They have used their own pipelines to blackmail the Europeans.  Well known fact by the way, just ask the Europeans.




That's true, as the Ukranians know only too well.


----------



## Calliope (29 August 2008)

America haters will believe anyone who discredits America.  But it stretches the credibility that anyone (except a Russian) could give any credence to an ex KGB man.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> America haters will believe anyone who discredits America.  But it stretches the credibility that anyone (except a Russian) could give any credence to an ex KGB man.





Yes unfortunately in the World today alliances seem to be building under the theory of " My enemys enemy is my friend " ......

Scary stuff ....


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> So, you reveal yourself 2020.  You take Putin's words at face value.  Says a lot about your mindset.






2020hindsight said:


> Lemme guess zzd,
> you think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone






ZzzzDad said:


> Conspiracy theorist I am not.




:topic Well the fact that you think that Oswald acted alone says a lot about your mindset as well ZZd.  You are so determined to be an ostrich - head firmly in the sand, that you don't even listen to the evidence... 

I mean , you're making Homer Simpson look like a genius here.   

  Click the Big Square, not the arrow !!  (James Files) 

  Bill Hicks - JFK

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=261831 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=263371


----------



## Doris (29 August 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> I hate conspiracy theories but could anyone in the US honestly hold up their right hands and swear that they can trust their present government to not have asked the Georgians to attack? And why are the US all over this country?




Knobby are you looking for two faced people... or people with two right hands?  The same?  Yes... 

SBS news tonight had the Russian Ambassador at the UN meeting today, in relation to Georgia, asking if the US was still looking for WMD's in Iraq... or had they found them?  
Got to pay that one.  
He looked very frustrated as though this were a US conspiracy yet no-one was even considering it!  
Have to say Putin looked an accomplished actor also, if he were lying.  The eyes have it. 
And you have to admit the media have screamed about Russia having a monopoly on oil in Europe if they control the pipeline.  In fact, fear of Russia has been propagated since Putin became PM.  
Could be linked...  McCain's only claim to fame is professing military judgment.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 August 2008)

Doris howdy 
as mentioned elsewhere .... Wesley Clark (Democratic, recent VP hopeful) was criticised a week or two back for saying that being shot down in a fighter is not a necessary prerequisite for becoming President.   Heck , he's been there 4 times , presumably he'd make 4 times the President that McCain would 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=309210



> And for much of this election year Senator McCain's military record has been off limits. That was until General Wesley Clark fired this broadside on Sunday talk show: Face the Nation.
> 
> WESLEY CLARK: He hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the navy that he commanded wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall.
> 
> ...




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=324409&highlight=wesley#post324409

Heck - compare Wesley Clark with McCain - one valedictorian of his class at West Point, was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford etc

the other graduating 894 th in a class of 899 . 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark



> Wesley Clark
> Born December 23, 1944 (1944-12-23) (age 63)
> 
> General Wesley Clark
> ...





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mccain


----------



## Calliope (29 August 2008)

2020 what a load of codswallop you go on with. I thought that when you started this thread it was to lecture the uneducated masses on what a nasty person John McCain is. And you have done your best. Post after post full of quotations and downloads trying to prove how smart you are and how blind everybody else. And now you are into conspiracy theories. Oswald for god's sake! You will be on the moonlandings next! And you are adding to your longwinded diatribes by quoting yourself. I think that you should get a life. This stuff is obviously all you do and it is now an obsession. You can't tolerate different viewpoints, and  you can't put forward a rational point of view. Have you ever thought of making concise postings with just your thoughts and ideas not somebody elses? You could probably increase your postings to 20 a day.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> 2020 what a load of codswallop you go on with. I thought that when you started this thread it was to lecture the uneducated masses on what a nasty person John McCain is. And you have done your best. Post after post full of quotations and downloads trying to prove how smart you are and how blind everybody else. And now you are into conspiracy theories. Oswald for god's sake! You will be on the moonlandings next! And you are adding to your longwinded diatribes by quoting yourself. I think that you should get a life. This stuff is obviously all you do and it is now an obsession. You can't tolerate different viewpoints, and  you can't put forward a rational point of view. Have you ever thought of making concise postings with just your thoughts and ideas not somebody elses? You could probably increase your postings to 20 a day.



calliope
maybe you could be specific on what you disagree with


----------



## Doris (29 August 2008)

Calliope - healthy to keep an open mind.  

I read documentaries on investigations into Marilyn Monroe's murder yonks ago - that she was going to blow the whistle on JFK's Vietnam plans.  Can't recall details but there was evidence that actor Peter Lawford, JFK's brother in law, was the brains behind her death and cover-up... his car at her house hours before she was found dead...  Her spirits/demeanor/plans not conducive to suicide etc...  

When JFK became president, she'd been involved as a secret courier between the White House and her boyfriend who was a Chicago mob boss planning a plot to kill Castro. She met JFK through Frank Sinatra.  Lots of cover-ups.

50 year release of info I wonder?


----------



## websman (30 August 2008)

Ok...Ok...I admit it.  Us Americans are hell bent on dominating the world and will destroy anyone who gets in our way.  WE ARE EVIL!!!   LOL


----------



## websman (30 August 2008)

Sarah Palin...Running mate.  Nice choice!   This is enough to seure my vote for John McCain.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2008)

websman said:


> Sarah Palin...Running mate.  Nice choice!   This is enough to seure my vote for John McCain.



And probably the Dem's greatest fear... a woman.


----------



## websman (30 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> And probably the Dem's greatest fear... a woman.




This will put McCain over the top, in my opinion.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

websman said:


> Sarah Palin...Running mate.  Nice choice!   This is enough to seure my vote for John McCain.




makes sense no question ..
(as in short term political sense anyway) 

but a week ago she was way down the list :-
Mitt Romney 3.5/1
Joe Lieberman 8/1
Tim Pawlety 11/1
Mark Sanford 20/1
Kay Bailey Hutchinson 25/1
Mike Huckabee 26/1
*Sarah Palin 28/1* 
Chuck Hagel 38/1
Charlie Crist 40/1
Condoleezza Rice 40/1 
etc



websman said:


> Ok...Ok...I admit it.  Us Americans are hell bent on dominating the world and will destroy anyone who gets in our way.  WE ARE EVIL!!!   LOL



told you a million times not to exaggerate websman. 
PS You'll agree I'm sure that recent leadership sets a pretty low bar for comparison - irrespective of the qualities of Americans as a nation.  We can only do better there surely, irrespective of who gets in.


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> calliope
> maybe you could be specific on what you disagree with




That's a reasonable question and deserves a reasonable answer. however I like to keep my posts brief, and as I have other interests, including making a living, I may have to answer in serial form. First of all I would like to make a disclaimer. I am not a John McCain advocate, but I do think he will win by default
It seems to me that you regard yourself as the alpha person in this little pool and you have surrounded yourself with a little cheer squad, united by the common thread of belief in Obama's infallibility and a dislike of McCain. Your nutty conspiracy theory ideas have also taken root in this little group, and now it seems you are an apologist for Putin purely because he hates McCain.
As the alpha person you are wary of intruders and your critics often get a nasty spray. What happened to balance?
That's about six things we disagree on. However everywhere I visit on this Forum, there I find 2020 muddying the waters. I will keep you posted.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

wiki :-

ex beauty queen  etc
She's been mayor of Wasilla, (pop 6,500), a town half the size of DePere  for two years 
and 18 months as governor of Alaska.   



> She was the youngest person, and the first woman, to be elected governor of Alaska. Before becoming governor, Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, City Council from 1992 to 1996, was elected and re-elected mayor of Wasilla for two three-year terms in 1996 and 1999.




http://www.startribune.com/politics/27667294.html?elr=KArks:DCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU



> Wis. Lt. Gov.: Palin would be 'fragile' president
> By TODD RICHMOND , Associated Press
> Last update: August 29, 2008 - 6:21 PM
> 
> ...




A comment on that Minneapolis-St Paul website :-
http://www.startribune.com/politics/27667294.html?elr=KArks:DCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU



> If McCain, who has had cancer four times, and turned 72 today, happens to die, do you REALLY want Sarah Palin, 44, *a first-term governor of a state with fewer people than the Twin Cities*, to lead the free world? She's probably a nice person, but how is this possibly a good pick???


----------



## Julia (30 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> And probably the Dem's greatest fear... a woman.



On the surface she looks like a good choice - age/appearance complementary to McCain.   Our American friends will know this, though:  does she have enough experience to be able to take over should anything happen to the ageing McCain?  That, after all, is supposed to be the main reason for having a VP.   

I think Obama would have been better off picking Hillary as VP.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> It seems to me that you regard yourself as the alpha person in this little pool
> 
> .. nutty conspiracy theory .




1. hell I thought you were going to be specific, instead you come up with this bs

2. the only conspiracy theory about JFK is the one that has LH Oswald acting alone. 

3. Calliope, you are arguing with me on vagaries, when I am trying to challenge ZZdad when he says that "you who don’t live in USA don’t know (about McCain's relationship with the National Alliance of Families) - and we who live there do”.   

I posted evidence to the contrary.   I'm waiting for him to answer, not for you to come up with red herrings

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=327999&highlight=accusations#post327999

Heck I wouldn’t mind it if websman responded to my challenge that USA acted aggressively in Iraq ( he was claiming “armed to the teeth” for “defence” – but, you’re probably right , I doubt either of those blokes will respond

PS Is Putin right about Georgia attacking to some script written in the Pentagon or the Whitehouse?  - As I said, I don't know - However, it's not totally unbelievable yes?, considering that there were many American soldiers in Georgia at the time?  Or are you in denial there?


----------



## bassmanpete (30 August 2008)

> I think Obama would have been better off picking Hillary as VP




Yes, but he wanted to be sure he'd survive his full term if elected


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2008)

Sorry to objectify an obviously very capable person...

....* but she's hawt*!


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2008)

Sarah Video:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7588435.stm


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

hey wayne
I was wonderin , why is Johnny trying to get his wedding ring off ?  

At least she looks like she knows how to spell "potatoe"


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2008)

I was more intrigued by his body language when she started bagging out big oil.


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 1. hell I thought you were going to be specific, instead you come up with this bs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Doris (30 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> It seems to me that you regard yourself as the alpha person in this little pool and you have surrounded yourself with a little cheer squad, united by the common thread of belief in Obama's infallibility and a dislike of McCain. Your nutty conspiracy theory ideas have also taken root in this little group, and now it seems you are an apologist for Putin purely because he hates McCain.
> As the alpha person you are wary of intruders and your critics often get a nasty spray. What happened to balance?




Calliope you are looking at all sides but understand 2020 started this thread and thus he has his values and opinions.  
I read on McCain and really try to be impartial but the whole picture I see is always confirmed.  

If I got off my chair on the right side, you would see me move to the left.  It's natural. 
Both are correct from our vantage point. 

2020 seems always to be objective to support his stances.  His research is indeed extraordinary.


----------



## ZzzzDad (30 August 2008)

*Sarah Palin -*A strong Republican reformer, who took on Alaska's corrupt Republican establishment:

From Wikipedia:

2002 Election
In 2002, Palin made an unsuccessful bid for Lieutenant Governor, coming in second to Loren Leman in a five-way race in the Republican primary. After Frank Murkowski resigned from his long-held U.S. Senate seat in mid-term to become governor, he considered Palin as a possible successor.[16] Murkowski appointed his daughter, then-Alaska State Representative Lisa Murkowski.[3]


Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission
Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[17] where she served from 2003 to 2004 until resigning in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.[18][3] After she resigned, she exposed the state Republican Party's chairman, Randy Ruedrich, one of her fellow Oil & Gas commissioners, who was accused of doing work for the party on public time, and supplying a lobbyist with a sensitive e-mail.[19] Palin filed formal complaints against both Ruedrich and former Alaska Attorney General Gregg Renkes, who both resigned; Ruedrich paid a record $12,000 fine.[3]


Governorship
Running on a clean-government campaign in 2006, Palin upset then-Governor Murkowski in the Republican gubernatorial primary.[3] In August, she declared that education, public safety, and transportation would be three cornerstones of her administration.[20] Despite being outspent by her Democratic opponent, she won the gubernatorial election in November, defeating former Governor Tony Knowles 48.3% to 40.9%.[3]


Palin became Alaska's first woman governor and, at 42, the youngest in Alaskan history. Palin was also the first Alaskan governor born after Alaska achieved U.S. statehood and the first not to be inaugurated in Juneau, instead choosing to hold her inauguration ceremony in Fairbanks. She took office on December 4, 2006.

Palin initially expressed support for the Gravina Island Bridge project,[21] commonly known outside the state as the "Bridge to Nowhere." However, once it had become a nationwide symbol of wasteful earmark spending and federal funding was lost, Palin decided against filling the $320 million gap with state money.[22][23] Alaska needs to be self-sufficient, she says, instead of relying heavily on "federal dollars," as the state does today.[24]

She has challenged the state's Republican leaders, helping to launch a campaign by Lieutenant Governor Sean Parnell to unseat U.S. Congressman Don Young[25] and publicly challenging Senator Ted Stevens to come clean about the federal investigation into his financial dealings.[22]

Palin frequently had an approval rating above 90% in 2007.[24] A poll published by Hays Research on July 28, 2008 showed Palin's approval rating at 80%,[26] while another Ivan Moore poll showed it at 76%, a drop which the pollsters attributed to the controversial firing of Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan.

*Great bio, strong woman - definitely a good choice for John McCain*


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> I was more intrigued by his body language when she started bagging out big oil.



You could bet she and her opinion won't get a look in on that one .. (should GOP get in). 

Probably something like Midnight Oil's ex-lead singer this week signing up for expansion of uranium mining (Beverley uranium mine in SA)    A year or two is a long time in politics as they say.. 

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2349578.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/28/2349517.htm


----------



## Doris (30 August 2008)

It would seem the GOP machine chose Palin - as McCain had only met her twice... reaffirming he is a puppet?

It will be interesting to see if the remnants of the pantsuit brigade will now still vote for McCain!

Some comments on WSJ blog:



> Sarah Palin, like McCain, will oppose equal-pay for equal-work for women. *Like McCain she wants to privatize Social Security* so Wall St. Brokers will get commissions to manage and lose our retirement money. Look at the stock of Morgan-Stanley, Merrill-Lynch, Lehman Brothers, all other brokerages, etc. all losing their shareholders and pension funds billions in the sub-prime mortgage scandal this year. *Our hard-working retirees could lose their savings and end up becoming homeless street people*.






> *This choice of VP was made based on defense*. They have been in defense mode for so long (trying to counter Obama’s success), I’m not surprised that this major decision was made considering what the Dems are doing more so than what the Republican base really wants. McCain cannot win for Republicans by trying to court liberal Hillary supporters. The choice of Palin is an insult to those women. *The women who supported Hillary did so because of her unique qualities, not just because she is a female*. This is not a “any woman will do” situation. He could have at least picked someone with sufficient experience like Kay Bailey. Add to that McCain’s camp saying that Obama lacks experience…um…there goes that. AND, he’d only met Palin 2 times prior to today. Sad!






> Seriously? Beyond the fact that this blog is clearly suffering from a conservative bias, the comments I’m reading here from the conservatives are making no sense. Palin was chosen because she is a woman. A TOKEN woman. I’m a citizen of the UK, and I don’t get to vote, nor do I have a preference. Or at least, I didn’t until this. If McCain and the Republican party think that by merely nominating a woman they will attract the former Clinton supporters who feel snubbed, *they are relying on a down and dirty tactic with no regard for what America needs, which is someone who ISN’T Republican*. *Your nation needs a Winston Churchill. That person is Obama*. Get your heads outta your asses and stop using fear to control your people. Submit to reason and rationale, and elect Obama.






> Ok, the boss says we are supposed to be nice.
> 
> I retract all the nasty things I said about Sarah Palin.
> 
> But MCCAIN’s Judgement is impaired. *He also looked at Mrs. Palin with elevator eyes while playing with his wedding ring*.






> I am a Canadian who has been following this election for the past year. Of all the other well known experienced choices McCain had, today’s announcement has me floored. I watched in disbelief as this woman from Alaska joined Senator McCain on stage. I listened to what she had to say, but *when she brought up Hillary Clinton, all I could think was “BAD MOVE”. No one, I repeat, no one, can compare themselves to Senator Clinton*. I understand the McCain camp is trying to send a message to the Hillary supporters who are still disappointed, however, I’m sure that those women are much smarter than that. *Women didn’t flock to Hilary ONLY because she’s a woman and the insinuation that any woman will do is downright insulting*. This is one case where a rose by any other name will not smell as sweet.






> McCain should have picked Geena Davis she at least has experience acting as our President.




http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/08/29/obama-campaign-attacks-and-backtracks-on-palin/


----------



## ZzzzDad (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> It would seem the GOP machine chose Palin - as McCain had only met her twice... reaffirming he is a puppet?
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the remnants of the pantsuit brigade will now still vote for McCain!
> 
> Some comments on WSJ blog:




Ha Ha - McCain a GOP puppet - that is VERY funny.

You truly know nothing of McCain and his fights with the GOP over the last seven years.

The GOP Machine wanted Mitt Romney plain and simple.

McCain a Puppet?  Funny one.


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Calliope you are looking at all sides but understand 2020 started this thread and thus he has his values and opinions.
> I read on McCain and really try to be impartial but the whole picture I see is always confirmed.
> 
> If I got off my chair on the right side, you would see me move to the left.  It's natural.
> ...




OK. 2020 owns the game and everybody has to play by his rules. He will answer to no one. Yes his research is extraordinary. Extraordinarily biased to the left.


----------



## Julia (30 August 2008)

2020 unbiased research???
Give me a break!


----------



## Pronto (30 August 2008)

Well said, Julia. Utterly predictable with interminable servings of cut and paste...


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> It would seem the GOP machine chose Palin - as McCain had only met her twice... reaffirming he is a puppet?
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the remnants of the pantsuit brigade will now still vote for McCain!



Doris, the lesser educated males in USA are saying they prefer McCain to Obama.  

So what do GOP do,  lol - choose a pinup girl - just to make sure of their allegiance.  

PS certainly sounds like the Republicans choose their VPs like they choose their pastors  Hagee and Falwell 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=293794

- who cares if it has any depth to it – sounds good according to the political tacticians 



Julia said:


> 2020 unbiased research???
> Give me a break!



Julia 
I’ve invited you to listen to a few youtubes over the months – To the best of my knowledge you haven’t listened to any of them – and/or refused to do so.  Even when I do a transcript of them, you refuse to read it .


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ...sounds like the Republicans choose their VPs like they choose their pastors  Hagee and Falwell.



.... opportunism that backfired ...
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=293794

Hagee on the absolute human disaster -  grossly and disgracefully mismanaged - that was Katrina - he blames gay rights offending the old testament 

PS Unlike Reverend Wright with Obama, Hagee stood on the same electoral platform in support of  McCain - at McCain's suggestion


----------



## Doris (30 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> OK. 2020 owns the game and everybody has to play by his rules. He will answer to no one. Yes his research is extraordinary. Extraordinarily biased to the left.




C'mon.  We are discussing *issues*.

I have been astounded at times when abuse has been pitted at 2020 and he has rebounded with objective responses.  He discusses issues and unlike McCain, does not stoop to eye-for-an-eye character denigrations.  Breathe in. 

I often wonder where people have sourced the info for their opinions to enable personal analysis.  

Albeit there can be a plethora of quotes that demand onerous time to masticate let alone digest (myself included!), but valuable information is more often than not, forthcoming, to edify us to enable opinions to be made.

If we do not have access to others' research, by default, we won't care.



> Obama said Mr. McCain was out of touch with the problems of everyday Americans. “It’s not because John McCain doesn’t care,” he said. “It’s because John McCain doesn’t get it.”


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Hey - I don't own anything, certainly not this thread.
Guess I found it interesting (on the Obama thread) that Wayne had such strong opinions of McCain, (he's duplicitious etc)  and I thought I'd start a thread on him and do some research. 

If you read the first few posts on this thread, I conclude from preliminary evidence that he "doesn't appear to be a hypocrite" and maybe he's "a rough diamond".  However then I found evidence of said duplicity in his dealings with MIA /POW matters.  

The wife who waited for him whilst he was in Vietnam - who was previously married to one of his classmates in the first place - was ditched in favour of a rich lady 17 years his junior.  

Quite up to skirting the rules to spend on the military, against the then president's wishes

Then I found him using the fact that he was a POW to somehow try to spin his way out of charges of corruption in the Keating Five fiasco.   Seriously smelly logic.  

Then his utter hypocrisy in recently approaching lunatic religious icons to try to win back the ground that cost him the 2000 republican nomination against GWB

The more I researched the less I liked him..  "nuff said"  as Wayne would say...

As for left or right - I'm a swinging voter. I've voted right much more often than I've voted left and/or green.  

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=242534&highlight=mccain#post242534

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=258893&highlight=mccain#post258893



			
				wayneL on McCain said:
			
		

> a/ He's duplicitous in internal matters.
> b/ He's a foreign affairs hawk, a jingo.
> 'nuff said!.


----------



## Doris (30 August 2008)

websman said:


> Sarah Palin...Running mate.  Nice choice!   This is enough to secure my vote for John McCain.




Do you have any reasons you dare... I mean, care to share?  

Do you agree with 2020 that the yobbos... I mean, rednecks will rejoice?


----------



## Doris (30 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> OK. 2020 owns the game and everybody has to play by his rules. He will answer to no one. Yes his research is extraordinary. Extraordinarily biased to the left.




Calliope, I didn't mean to infer that 2020 owns the game, but rather, he has an inherent responsibility to push his barrow.  

Your remarks have been kind and thoughtful allowing others to explain their views and it's a challenge now to consolidate in stating facts and opinions as you view them to countercharge.  I'm addicted to this forum because people here think and voice opinions.  I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo would have had a deep meaningful side after initially reading his belligerent stirrings. We all win.


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

I'm sorry 2020 that I have been critical of your opinions. I now realise that I have been taking you too seriously and I have been blind to your entertainment value. I can now lean back and have a good laugh at your pontifications on American politics.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

calliope]Your nutty conspiracy theory ideas ... [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Julia said:


> 2020 unbiased research??? Give me a break!






Pronto said:


> Well said, Julia. Utterly predictable with interminable servings of cut and paste...




Calliope, Julia, and Pronto  (and ZZDad I spose, although he's already answered that he believes that LH Oswald acted alone) 

off topic to some extent , except that we were straying into the realms of what "the USA" and/or CIA etc are/ were capable of manipulating (including Georgia maybe?)...

what do you think of the JFK assassination - did LH Oswald act alone in your opinion(s)?.

before you answer, you might like to watch that first youtube on post #179, which ZZdad obviously hasn't, and calliope calls "a nutty conspiracy theory".

Here's the transcript btw :-

Pronto, as for cut and pasting, you'll be pleased to know that, like the other transcript of the youtube of McCain's amendment to the MIA/POW information bill (critical to understanding the man imo) - that I haven't cut and pasted - I've taken the time to type it from first principles  

I warn you this makes gruesome reading ... 



			
				James Files said:
			
		

> …. When they started proceeding down Elm St, shots started being fired from behind , and I assumed that it was Mr Nicoleti, because he was the one that was in the building , and I knew that Johnny Roselli was there , and …
> 
> I remember the shots ringing out , and even though the President was being hit with the rounds, I was considering it a miss because I knew that we were going for a head shot on the president.  And I’d known he had been hit in the body, but I didn’t know what part at that time, and I seen the body lurch, and I saw the body lurch again – I heard another shot that missed we were supposed to hit noone but Connolly, - I mean noone but Mr Kennedy, and I discovered that Connolly got hit with one of the rounds at that point, and I wasn’t even sure of that because I was keeping Kennedy as best as I could in the scope  on the fireball,
> 
> ...


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Calliope, I didn't mean to infer that 2020 owns the game, but rather, he has an inherent responsibility to push his barrow.
> 
> Your remarks have been kind and thoughtful allowing others to explain their views and it's a challenge now to consolidate in stating facts and opinions as you view them to countercharge.  I'm addicted to this forum because people here think and voice opinions.  I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo would have had a deep meaningful side after initially reading his belligerent stirrings. We all win.




Doris you are being too kind. Only you could find a deep, meaningful side to Wayne. As for 2020 I won't poke any more sticks at him. It is not much fun.


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## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Doris, you were saying that McCain has only met Palin twice.  
Reminds me of my Indian (Hindi) friend who was married under an "arranged marriage" - met her twice as well - once 12 months before the wedding when they shook hands, and once 5 minutes before the wedding when they said " I do" . lol  

Ahh you gotta laugh.


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## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Countdown: Who Is Sarah Palin? 8/29/08

she is "pro taking polar bears off the endangered species"
doesn't believe that global warming is man-made 

Both McCain's wife and running mate are ex-beauty pageant ladies 

5m20s 
"she 's a bit of a dan quayle choice, a bit of a LOL choice"


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## wayneL (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> I'm addicted to this forum because people here think and voice opinions.  I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo would have *had a deep meaningful side* after initially reading his belligerent stirrings. We all win.




Hey! You're going to ruin my reputation!


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Seems she couldn't do much for the Exxon Valdez oil-spill victims - only paid a percentage of what they were initially supposed to receive etc 
Supreme court reducing the punitive damages etc

but "We'll make sure it doesn't happen again"  (hope she's right)

  Governor Sarah Palin's reaction to Exxon Valdez decision

This bloke is fairly amusing , admits he doesn't know how to pronounce "Palin" 
 Sarah Palin: An Introduction


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## Doris (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Doris, you were saying that McCain has only met Palin twice.
> Reminds me of my Indian (Hindi) friend who was married under an "arranged marriage" - met her twice as well - once 12 months before the wedding when they shook hands, and once 5 minutes before the wedding when they said " I do" . lol
> 
> Ahh you gotta laugh.




I read he met her in May at a governor's convention... and for the second time on Wednesday (US time) as he wanted to talk with her before his announcement.

Yes! Marry in haste - repent at leisure.  He's cooked his goose I'd say.

He didn't look too thrilled with her as she gave her 'spiel'... or squeal...  

Honestly... she irritates me more than Hillary did.  Her shrill voice and that 'don't you worry about not having Hillary... I'm here... so now we'll crack that ceiling'!


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## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Seems she's almost talked McCain around on drilling in the ANWR , Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska. 

Her husband works for one of the oil companies, BP I think 



2020hindsight said:


> ...Exxon Valdez oil-spill victims - .....
> but "We'll make sure it doesn't happen again"  (hope she's right)




PS it will happen again if you drill sweetheart 
 Alaska Governor Sarah Palin on Larry Kudlow

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/29/INA312IIVL.DTL


> As an Alaskan, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Her husband works for BP on an Alaska oil field. Yet, as the Almanac of American Politics has reported, she stood up to Big Oil when she supported a natural gas pipeline instead of an oil pipeline backed by the state's major petroleum interests. McCain has been too much of a wishful thinker when it comes to energy policy. Palin could champion a more grounded approach to energy.




http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/427xjuoj.asp


> Republican presidential candidate John McCain says that he's taking another look at the possibility of drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska, and as part of that assessment McCain says that he plans to talk to the nation's most prominent advocate of drilling in ANWR, Alaska governor Sarah Palin.
> 
> McCain has opposed drilling in ANWR. In the past he's compared it to drilling in the Grand Canyon. But as energy prices climbed over the past several months, he has been careful to avoid locking himself into an anti-drilling position. In late June, McCain told voters in Missouri and Minnesota that he was open to receiving new information about exploration on Alaska's coastal plain, but noted: "I certainly haven't changed my position."
> 
> In an interview with THE WEEKLY STANDARD aboard his campaign plane last week, McCain made clear he has not ruled out a change in his position--to one that endorses drilling in ANWR. "I continue to examine it," he said. So does his staff. McCain's campaign has been quietly studying the ANWR issue and discussing the potential consequences--good and bad--of a policy change.


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## Julia (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Doris, the lesser educated males in USA are saying they prefer McCain to Obama.



And thus 2020 brands every McCain voter in America, undoubtedly on the basis of excellent quantitative and qualitative research.



> Julia
> I’ve invited you to listen to a few youtubes over the months – To the best of my knowledge you haven’t listened to any of them – and/or refused to do so.  Even when I do a transcript of them, you refuse to read it .



Well, now, 2020, I'm quite puzzled as to how you would know what I have read or listened to, and even more puzzled as to why you would possibly imagine that I should feel any obligation to take any interest in any youtube or other material you insist on thrusting onto the forum.

I don't want to be unkind, or impolite, here, but I really don't feel I need to absorb all the undoubtedly brilliant wisdom and insight you have to offer in order to form my own opinions.
However, I thank you very much indeed for your attempts to enlighten me.


----------



## Julia (30 August 2008)

Doris said:


> C
> I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo would have had a deep meaningful side after initially reading his belligerent stirrings. We all win.



Shows how little you have read of other threads on this forum.   Wayne is probably one of the most thoughtful and lucid people we have.  Don't be misled by a bit of stirring.


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

Julia said:


> 1.  And thus 2020 brands every McCain voter in America, undoubtedly on the basis of excellent quantitative and qualitative research.
> 
> 2. However, I thank you very much indeed for your attempts to enlighten me.




1. You been paying attention Julia? - the blue collar white voters are the problem for Obama - he doesn't have such a problem with educated whites 

2. I imagine you'll ask a really good question soon Julia - without any research or any attempt to answer it yourself lol - and that will be your contribution to enlighten us all 

carry on carrying on


----------



## Calliope (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 1. You been paying attention Julia? - the blue collar white voters are the problem for Obama - he doesn't have such a problem with educated whites
> 
> 2. I imagine you'll ask a really good question soon Julia - without any research or any attempt to answer it yourself lol - and that will be your contribution to enlighten us all
> 
> carry on carrying on




Julia you have been ticked off by the master for not paying attention and refusing to accept enlightenment. Go and stand in the naughty corner.:headshake


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## websman (30 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Doris, the lesser educated males in USA are saying they prefer McCain to Obama.
> 
> So what do GOP do,  lol - choose a pinup girl - just to make sure of their allegiance.




I not lessr edemicated!   I lik hir cause of hir branes!!!   

*Yur a idiot 2020!!!* :bigun2:


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## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

websman said:


> :bigun2:


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## 2020hindsight (30 August 2008)

websman said:


> :bigun2:






websman said:


> Not unless you shoot first.




Hey websman - seems you're a fibber as well 

Never mind, Sarah is a keen supporter of the gun lobby.
She likes to shoot moose it seems - Here's a recipe she might be interested in  

 Muppet Show - Swedish Chef - making chocolat moose

PS Note that OReilly has a blue collar


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## Doris (31 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Shows how little you have read of other threads on this forum.   Wayne is probably one of the most thoughtful and lucid people we have.  Don't be misled by a bit of stirring.




Julia you're on the attack tonight!  

Read my words again and see what I said...

It is because I had read his contributions I said it.


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## Doris (31 August 2008)

websman said:


> I not lessr edemicated!   I lik hir cause of hir branes!!!




You think 2020's 'males - low education' cap fits you?
Polls are done by age, sex, income, education etc...

What's with the petty pervasive personal interpretation?

We are a friendly, peaceful country... like Canada!


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## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

The over-educated white males are for Obama. The professional students and PHD's that loathe real work and capitalism and stay in academia and infect future young minds are for Obama.

The educated just enough to graduate, get a job, and keep the country running folks are for John McCain and Sarah Palin.


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## Calliope (31 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> The over-educated white males are for Obama. The professional students and PHD's that loathe real work and capitalism and stay in academia and infect future young minds are for Obama.
> 
> The educated just enough to graduate, get a job, and keep the country running folks are for John McCain and Sarah Palin.




The same thing happens here. Our federal government is made up of union leaders, lawyers, academics and party hacks. In other words people who have never done any manual work, have never produced anything and have never run a business. The entrepeneurial people who want to keep the country running have every obstacle placed in their paths by these non- achievers.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

I love Governor Palin's story:

from Wikipedia:

Palin was elected governor and assumed office in December 2006, after defeating incumbent governor Frank Murkowski in the Republican primary and former Democratic governor Tony Knowles in the general election. She was the youngest person, and the first woman, to be elected governor of Alaska. Before becoming governor, Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, city council from 1992 to 1996, and was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996 and 1999. She lost her race for lieutenant governor of Alaska in 2002.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science.[7][8] Palin briefly worked in broadcasting as a sports reporter for local Anchorage television stations and with her husband in commercial fishing.[3]
..............
Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[19] where she served from 2003 to 2004 until resigning in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.[20][3] After she resigned, she exposed the state Republican Party's chairman, Randy Ruedrich, one of her fellow Oil & Gas commissioners, who was accused of doing work for the party on public time, and supplying a lobbyist with a sensitive e-mail.[21] Palin filed formal complaints against both Ruedrich and former Alaska Attorney General Gregg Renkes, who both resigned; Ruedrich paid a record $12,000 fine.[3]

*She is a Republican anti-corruption hero, and most of the people she opposed were entrenched Republicans.

This woman is a breath of fresh air.*

The Democrats are in full panic mode, because they know that she will bring her anti-corruption crusade to Washington, where it is the Democrats that are entrenched and most corrupt now.


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## websman (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> The same thing happens here. Our federal government is made up of union leaders, lawyers, academics and party hacks. In other words people who have never done any manual work, have never produced anything and have never run a business. The entrepeneurial people who want to keep the country running have every obstacle placed in their paths by these non- achievers.




Amen to that!


----------



## websman (31 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> I love Governor Palin's story:
> 
> *She is a Republican anti-corruption hero, and most of the people she opposed were entrenched Republicans.
> 
> ...




I agree 100%.  Sarah Palin is just what John McCain needed!  Maybe Palin will run for president, after McCain finishes his term.  

And....Who should run for president after Palin???...... Answer: Bobby Jindle (Governor of Louisiana)


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## Calliope (31 August 2008)

websman said:


> I agree 100%.  Sarah Palin is just what John McCain needed!  Maybe Palin will run for president, after McCain finishes his term.
> 
> And....Who should run for president after Palin???...... Answer: Bobby Jindle (Governor of Louisiana)




Sarah Palin is more qualified to run the country than Obama is. He has never run anything.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

If McCain wins (and I'm confident he will), and then decides not to run in 2012, I will have a tough time deciding between Jindal and Palin.  They are both the future of the Republican party.  Romney is a good man too.


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## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

Wasilla Council proud of the fact that their mayor ( of 18 months ago) has made it to the second top position in the world.

XXX correction she was mayor till 1999 - then took off some time to be a mum presumably - then 18 months as Alaskan governor. 

Not sure why they have soldiers on their website? - maybe they use the military for council duties up there ? 

Economically - ? who knows
but Ecologically, she sounds like a walking disaster. 

PS Wasilla (6.5K) has a population half the size of Bowral (12K)


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## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

...  btw , here's what the Bowral coucil website looks like (for comparison)


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## wayneL (31 August 2008)

2020

You have to understand that the US is a militarist culture.

The military is very present in everyday life in lots of ways.

The national anthem is about the battle for independence (cleverly disguised as being about the flag).

They have such a thing as military school over there (the perennial threat to make their wealthy-ish brats behave).

They like wars, so long as they're winning.

It all ties in with the whole gun culture thing.

To associate yourself with the military is to score brownie points.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

Nice article about Sarah Palin's husband:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080830/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_todd_palin_profile

Some excerpts:

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - He's known as a doting, blue-collar husband who stands on the sidelines as his wife blazes a historic trail in politics. 

But Todd Mitchell Palin can claim accomplishments beyond his marriage to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the surprise running mate of Republican presidential hopeful John McCain.

Todd Palin is a veteran oil-field worker*(Not and oil executive, as disinformationists have put out there)* and commercial fisherman affectionately dubbed Alaska's "first dude." He's a man who took college courses but does not have a degree, yet can hold his own in sophisticated circles, even hosting a reception for five former Alaska first ladies earlier this month.

A father of five, he's also a four-time winner of the world's longest snowmobile race, billed as the most grueling. It's a sport the 43-year-old lifelong Alaskan is so passionate about that he's continued to compete even after his wife took office in December 2006.

In this year's 2,000-mile Tesoro Iron Dog contest, Palin and racing partner Scott Davis were trying to defend their 2007 championship when Palin broke his arm in a crash. It was 400 miles from the finish line, but he refused to quit, coming in fourth, cheered on by the parka-clad governor waving a checkered flag.......


_______________________
This couple is not the stereotyped Republicans that the media, and some foreigners believe.  They are the true Republicans - the mainstream ones.


----------



## websman (31 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> 2020
> 
> You have to understand that the US is a militarist culture.
> 
> ...




At least we're not afraid to defend ourselves...  I keep a gun handy for anyone who tries to invade my home.

We like wars?  No...We don't like wars, but sometimes they are neccesary to guarantee our freedom.  I'll give my life anyday, for my country's freedom.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> 1. I don't think it really matters who the vice president is ....
> 
> 2. Truman was totally unprepared when he assumed the Presidency ......  Before being elected Senator he ran a haberdashery shop
> 
> 3. On the other hand Obama has never run anything.




1. mm disagree

2. ahh Harry S Truman - good example - the man who pressed the button  ( I realise of course that times have changed ) - but it would be nice to know what Sarah thought about the ultimate MAD scenario. -  McCain is 72 and has had multiple bouts with cancer after all. 

3. Obama has faced the people under intense scrutiny for 12 months 

Tell you something else he has done - he voted against Iraq in the first place.  Whereas McCain voted for it – *and has admitted it was about oil *!  (whether or not websman will admit it - and/or reply to my previous challenge which he keeps ignoring. ) 

 John '100 years' Mccain admits Iraq War really about OIL!!!



> McCain decided to toss in a plug for his upcoming energy policy rollout. But in the midst of decrying the dangers of Americans reliance on foreign oil, McCain seemed to suggest that this reliance caused the current struggle in Iraq. "My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will -- that will then prevent us -- *that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," McCain said*.




PS actually Philip Yeo is retiring as Mayor of Wingecarribee Council next month I notice - maybe he can get a job with GOP ? - and incidentally, Bowral is part of the Wingecarribee Shire Council , which is about 6 times (7 times?) as big as Wasilla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingecarribee
population 40,600
area 2700 sq km, 1040 sq miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasilla,_Alaska
population 5,500 (subsequently claimed to be 6500 in press articles) 
area (land) 11.7 sq m

PS I'm guessing Americans won't know how to pronounce Wingecarribee
Then again, that youtube back there suggests that many don't know how to pronounce Wasilla either 
 not Palin for that matter


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2008)

websman said:


> At least we're not afraid to defend ourselves...  I keep a gun handy for anyone who tries to invade my home.
> 
> We like wars?  No...We don't like wars, but sometimes they are neccesary to guarantee our freedom.  I'll give my life anyday, for my country's freedom.



Where were you when they passed the PATRIOT Act Webs?

They're stripping your freedoms a bit at a time without you even noticing.

(But you're not alone mate, they're doing it to us in Oz and pommieland too)


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Wasilla Council proud of the fact that their mayor ( of 18 months ago) has made it to the second top position in the world.
> 
> XXX correction she was mayor till 1999 - then took off some time to be a mum presumably - then 18 months as Alaskan governor.




Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, city council from 1992 to 1996, and was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996 and 1999.  She left the mayors office in 2002 (two 3 year terms).

Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission
Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[21] where she served from 2003 to 2004. She resigned in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.[22][4] After she resigned, Palin exposed the state Republican Party's chairman, Randy Ruedrich, one of her fellow Oil & Gas commissioners, who was accused of doing work for the party on public time and supplying a lobbyist with a sensitive e-mail.[23] Palin filed formal complaints against both Ruedrich and former Alaska Attorney General Gregg Renkes, who both resigned. Ruedrich also paid a record $12,000 fine.[4]


*All of this was in a previous post, but, 2020 doesn't bother to read them - which is funny because he continuously accuses us of not reading or viewing his.  Typical do as I say, not as I do liberal*

By the way, as some people say, she is in the hands of BIG BAD oil, Big Bad oil must be masochists, because she has been the worst critic of their corrupt practices in Alaska.


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> Sarah Palin is more qualified to run the country than Obama is. He has never run anything.




What do you call the years of work organizing organizations in South Chicago changing the unemployment scenarios?  REAL work helping REAL people on the ground? Changing attitudes and lives to be functional?  POTUS is a mere extension of this.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> 1. Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, city council from 1992 to 1996, and was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996 and 1999.  She left the mayors office in 2002 (two 3 year terms).
> 
> 2. ...*All of this was in a previous post, but, 2020 doesn't bother to read them - which is funny because he continuously accuses us of not reading or viewing his.  Typical do as I say, not as I do liberal*
> 
> 3. By the way, as some people say, she is in the hands of BIG BAD oil, Big Bad oil must be masochists, because she has been the worst critic of their corrupt practices in Alaska.



1.  cripes ! - I apologise profusely lol. Heck ZZd that changes everything !!  My entire argument is turned on its head !

2.  Please use the years that ZZdad said (i.e. mayor till 2002 not 1999)  - followed by 5 years presumably as a mum (not 7, 8 whatever)  - instead of the dates I used - so misleading of me  

3.	So is she or is she not in favour of drilling in the Arctic Reserve?  what McCain previously said would be equivalent to drilling in the Grand Canyon.

PS Actually it seems I misread my own post ..
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=329445&highlight=palin#post329445



			
				2020 from wiki said:
			
		

> She was the youngest person, and the first woman, to be elected governor of Alaska. Before becoming governor, Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, City Council from 1992 to 1996, was elected and re-elected mayor of Wasilla for two three-year terms in 1996 and 1999.




Thought for the day:-


> Kurt Vonnegut :- When the last living thing has died on account of us, how poetical it would be if earth could say in a voice floating up, perhaps from the floor of the Grand Canyon, it is done, people did not like it here.


----------



## Calliope (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> What do you call the years of work organizing organizations in South Chicago changing the unemployment scenarios?  REAL work helping REAL people on the ground? Changing attitudes and lives to be functional?  POTUS is a mere extension of this.




Organising organisations??? Seems to me he has a future as a bureaucrat.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 1.  cripes ! - I apologise profusely lol. Heck ZZd that changes everything !!  My entire argument is turned on its head !
> 
> 2.  Please use the years that ZZdad said (i.e. mayor till 2002 not 1999)  - followed by 5 years presumably as a mum (not 7)  - instead of the dates I used - so misleading of me




*Cripes, he did it again!!! Read on 2020*

Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[21] where she served from 2003 to 2004. She resigned in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> *Cripes, he did it again!!! Read on 2020*
> 
> Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[21] where she served from 2003 to 2004. She resigned in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.




ok lol
 2 years less as a mum - makes that 5 years or whatever 

PS
ZZd - of course - and obviously - the most relevant experience is 18 months as Alaskan governor - and neither you (in your fastidiousness) nor I (in my pisstake) have made reference to  

PS Did I hear that Alaska has a population less than San Fran?


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 3.	So is she or is she not in favour of drilling in the Arctic Reserve?  what McCain previously said would be equivalent to drilling in the Grand Canyon.




She is in favor of it.  McCain is simply wrong on this one.  He is bowing to the radical environmentalists on this one.  

They only want to drill on 20,000 acres of a South Carolina sized reserve.  It is the northern section that is nothing but tundra.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ok lol
> 2 years less as a mum - makes that 5 years or whatever




Not good at math either, huh?  That would be two years.

by the way, it is 20 months as governor - not that that one matters that much.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Not good at math either, huh?  That would be two years.




lol - and you're not good at getting the point 
she's extremely inexperienced.

Or are you the only person in the world saying otherwise


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> Organising organisations??? Seems to me he has a future as a bureaucrat.




Some research needed Calliope.  Ignorance is not bliss when enunciated.

Obama enthused and led people / organizations (including churches as these had groups of relevant people already) to be proactive in improving the mass unemployment / subsequent youth crime scenario.  

He did not go in as the CEO.  He forged his leadership from the ground up by listening and acting.  

Give credit where credit is due.


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> PS Did I hear that Alaska has a population less than San Fran?




Very true... but...

Careful 2020.

People in San Francisco do not like their city to be adulterated.
San Francisco.  Not San Fran, or Frisco...

This is pedantic but you don't want to upset Americans.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

New Zogby poll just out:

ZOGBY: 

McCain/Palin 47%
Obama/Biden 45%... 

And this is BETWEEN the conventions.  Obama is supposed to be at least 10 points up at this point.  The Republicans have not even had theirs yet.

Exciting!!


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Doris, you were saying that McCain has only met Palin twice.
> Reminds me of my Indian (Hindi) friend who was married under an "arranged marriage" - met her twice as well - once 12 months before the wedding when they shook hands, and once 5 minutes before the wedding when they said " I do" . lol
> 
> Ahh you gotta laugh.




2020 - I gotta ask.  How did your Hindi mate's marriage go??


How can one say McCain is not a puppet to the GOP machine over THEIR CHOICE?

If he is not responsible for choosing his VP, *who* will be responsible for decisions *if* he get to be POTUS?

Her experience and connection to McCain is under scrutiny:



> McCain first met Palin only six months ago and had just one conversation with the Alaska governor before offering her the vice presidential slot on the Republican ticket, the Arizona senator's campaign said Friday.
> 
> *The move appears to be a marked departure for McCain*, a man with a tendency to surround himself with a close circle of advisers and politicians with whom he has long felt comfortable.
> 
> ...



http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/30/campaign.wrap/


----------



## Calliope (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Some research needed Calliope.  Ignorance is not bliss when enunciated.
> 
> Obama enthused and led people / organizations (including churches as these had groups of relevant people already) to be proactive in improving the mass unemployment / subsequent youth crime scenario.
> 
> ...




No research needed. You have done it for me and it only reinforces my point.
So now I am an ignorant non-researcher:hide: Doris please leave the invective to 2020.


----------



## ZzzzDad (31 August 2008)

Incredible picture source for McCain/Palin:

http://www.mccainblogette.com/

Look through them all - very inspiring.  Great looking family, etc.


----------



## Julia (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Julia you're on the attack tonight!
> 
> Read my words again and see what I said...
> 
> It is because I had read his contributions I said it.



Doris, I know what you said.   I don't want to change what I said, especially in the face of "Wayneepoo".


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> 2020 - I gotta ask.  How did your Hindi mate's marriage go??




:topic - lol  (seriously off topic, but sometimes it helps to lighten up these things - after all, the president will be who the president will be - and if they want us to go to another war over oil, we can tell them where to go  )

He / they live in Singapore - happily married after 15 years whatever, 
When his son reaches marriable age, he will send him back to India, where relatives will pick a wife for him.  In fact the boy and/or girl can say no, - I believe his final choice was the third choice they put up to him.  But having said yes, that's it .  But another thing, for the 12 months prior to the wedding, they were not allowed to communicate even on the phone lol.   Amazingly high success rates for such marriages - compared to Aus - and particularly compared to USA and/or Las Vegas.   As Micky Rooney (I think) said - he "liked to get married in the morning - that way,  if it didn't work out, he hadn't wasted a whole day" 
cheers


----------



## Julia (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 1. mm disagree
> 
> 2. ahh Harry S Truman - good example - the man who pressed the button  ( I realise of course that times have changed ) - but it would be nice to know what Sarah thought about the ultimate MAD scenario. -  McCain is 72 and has had multiple bouts with cancer after all.



I agree entirely.   I'd feel a lot more nervous about her taking over the reins than I would the candidate for the Democratic VP (sorry, I've forgotten his name already.)

Also, a woman who is anti-abortion and pro-guns is the antithesis of my own values, but I can see that many Americans will like her for this.


----------



## Julia (31 August 2008)

websman said:


> At least we're not afraid to defend ourselves...



I'm not sure that it's the defending yourself bit that most people are uncomfortable about, rather more the invasion of other countries.


----------



## Julia (31 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> lo
> Or are you the only person in the world saying otherwise




2020, it's this sort of hyperbole that makes people so irritated.


----------



## Julia (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> No research needed. You have done it for me and it only reinforces my point.
> So now I am an ignorant non-researcher:hide: Doris please leave the invective to 2020.



Ah, Calliope, your turn to stand in the naughty corner now.


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Doris, I know what you said.   I don't want to change what I said, especially in the face of "Wayneepoo".




Oh Julia...   

Semantics.  

Had I written _Wayneepooh_ would it have been better? Yes.

But it was used to insinuate Wayne was just a huggy bear despite his bloviating/pontificating/being dogmatic.

Adding 'pooh' was an affectionate term my grandmother used when playing with with infants.


*Its source is on the Barack thread*:

... I have bolded and underlined for your attention.

(Click the arrow after the name on the quote to verify)



wayneL said:


> ...and in one fell swoop, Obama loses all credibility with thinkers. The Al Bore kiss of death.
> 
> Look, Lucifer dressed in his normal red and carrying his pitchfork could beat McCain with one hand tied behind his back. The sheeple will vote for Obama, but that won't make Obama a good pres.
> 
> ...






Doris said:


> *Wayneepoo*... I see you've *polished* your emoticons!
> 
> Do you actually read his policies?  I've put many of them on here.  http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
> 
> ...




Wayne would not have been offended.  He knew it was used affectionately.
I reiterate:  Wayneepoo*h* is a huggy bear... not the ogre he often implies!

I was implying that 2020 was not the ogre Calliope had interpreted him as. Look for the *whole picture*.

Now. Again... read and see my words:



Doris said:


> Calliope, I didn't mean to infer that 2020 owns the game, but rather, he has an inherent responsibility to push his barrow.
> 
> Your remarks have been kind and thoughtful allowing others to explain their views and it's a challenge now to consolidate in stating facts and opinions as you view them to counter charge.  I'm addicted to this forum because people here think and voice opinions.  I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo would have had a deep meaningful side *after initially* reading his *belligerent* stirrings. We all win.




Ooops...

I would never have dreamed Wayneepoo*h* would have had a deep meaningful side *after initially* reading his *belligerent* stirrings.


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> No research needed. You have done it for me and it only reinforces my point.
> So now I am an ignorant non-researcher:hide: Doris please leave the invective to 2020.




I was not abusing you.  Merely edifying you.  

Barack has vast experience in successful leadership!

How does 'my research' reinforce your denial of this?

... rhetoric aside.


----------



## Calliope (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> I was not abusing you.  Merely edifying you.
> 
> Barack has vast experience in successful leadership!
> 
> ...




OK I have been naughty. I will write out a thousand times... "The combined wisdom of Doris and 2020 surpasses all understanding."

Oh, and by the way, I think a character termed Wayneepoo used to be a secondrate breakfast announcer on a Brisbane radio station. However as usual I haven't done any research.


----------



## Doris (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> OK I have been naughty. I will write out a thousand times... "The combined wisdom of Doris and 2020 surpasses all understanding."




Stop pouting/vituperating/objurgating and answer the question!

Let's raise the bar.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

Julia said:


> I  agree entirely.   I'd feel a lot more nervous about her taking over the reins than I would the candidate for the Democratic VP (sorry, I've forgotten his name already .....



Julia, for interest etc ..

Joe Biden was a senator in Jan 1973
When this photo of Sarah Palin was taken in 1982 at school in Wasilla, Joe had already been a Senator for 9 years    - and John McCain was entering politics (House of Reps first , then Senate 1986). 

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1837713,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden


> Joe Biden ... Born and raised in Scranton, Pennsylvania for ten years prior to moving to Delaware, Biden trained as a lawyer and became a senator in 1973 at age 30, the fifth-youngest senator in U.S. history. He has served as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, dealing with issues related to drug policy, crime prevention, and civil liberties. He is a long-time member and current chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and has worked on resolutions concerning the Yugoslav wars and Iraq War.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mccain


> John McCain ... He retired from the Navy as a captain in 1981 and, moving to Arizona, entered politics. Elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 1982, he served two terms, and was then elected to the U.S. Senate in 1986


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

Calliope said:


> OK I have been naughty. I will write out a thousand times... "The combined wisdom of Doris and 2020 surpasses all understanding."



pass 






   (<<< calliope)         







PS Calliope I enjoyed your quotable quote re Truman / Macarthur - thank you


----------



## Calliope (31 August 2008)

Doris said:


> Stop pouting/vituperating/objurgating and answer the question!
> 
> Let's raise the bar.




Tut tut, temper :screwy: some raw nerves exposed here, and more invective and orders. I have a better idea. Let's open the bar. and be friends.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

http://freesoupwithpurchase.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/sarah-palin-maxim-cover/

Here's a more recent (2006) photo - designed to appeal to young voters to become Alaskan Governor.  At least it seems she likes elephants 

(PS better say allegedly I guess, lol - who nose - in these days of the mischievous internet) 



> The race for President just took an interesting turn. I don’t have to remind people of McCain’s stunning Veep pick today. It was out of left field, but then again John McCain has been known to defy conventional wisdom and buck the system. That reflects well with his choice of Gov. Sarah Palin, who has also often played by her own set of rules in fighting corruption and running the state of Alaska. Even during her campaign for governor in 2006, she decided to appeal to the young voters by giving an exclusive interview and pictorial with MAXIM Magazine. See the cover below. I’m sure McCain’s people took this into consideration when they vetted her.




PS 15 hoaxes that changed the world..  

Question is, are we about to see the 16th?  lol  



> "I have a dream... An America judged not by the amount of skin they show ... but by the content of their character etc etc"


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 August 2008)

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/john-mccain-pic.html



> McCain VP Pick No Friend to Polar Bears
> By Sarah Lai Stirland August 29, 2008
> 
> *Alaska Governor Sarah Palin has ignored research showing that polar bear populations are declining in the quest to plumb new sources of energy*, according to scientists, and environmental groups who fought to put the bears on the endangered species list.
> ...




The same lady who says that she won't let another Exxon Valdez happen   is doing a beeline in that very direction with oil drilling.   Whoever drills there (and obviously someone will someday - man can't help himself from raping the planet) will have to be so damned careful to avoid any spills  

she's a walking disaster... 

PS half the reason that polar bears aren't declining as fast as they could is that hunting them has been outlawed in a lot of those areas.

PS I believe that reference to "*He added that Palin will support McCain's policies*" means that if HE doesn't want to drill in the Arctic Reserve, then she'll be told to pull her head in .

PS ref last post, that stomach doesn't look like it belongs on a mother of 5 to me


----------



## Doris (1 September 2008)

*KTVA, Local CBS Affiliate, Reports On Palin Trooper-Gate Scandal*


----------



## ZzzzDad (1 September 2008)

I love it how these so-called liberals, feminists, etc., are out to get Governor Palin.  This trooper - Wooten - should have been fired.  He beat Palin's sister, tazered his 11 year stepson, and threatened to put a bullet in Palin's father's head.

But, oh yeah, according to the liberals and feminists, this guy should still be a state trooper.

Congratulations on your hero wife beater Wooten.

Sarah Palin, taking on the good ole boys network, with NO HELP from the left wing and the feminists.

By the way, the Governor has the right to fire political appointees.  Moneghan was a political appointee.

McCain's team vetted and investigated this fully, and concluded there was nothing there.


----------



## ZzzzDad (1 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> The same lady who says that she won't let another Exxon Valdez happen   is doing a beeline in that very direction with oil drilling.   Whoever drills there (and obviously someone will someday - man can't help himself from raping the planet) will have to be so damned careful to avoid any spills
> 
> she's a walking disaster...




I guess you ride your bike to work?  Or do you even work?

It is so ridiculous not to utilize the resources that were given to us.  While the rest of the world is drilling, including on our doorstep, the wacko environmentalists tie up everything in the U.S.A.  The people are getting mad, and they aren't going to take it anymore.  The American people are starting to realize why gasoline prices are so high, and they are not blaming "Big Oil" or the Republicans.  They are blaming the Enviro nutcases, and their Democrat enablers.


----------



## websman (1 September 2008)

Julia said:


> I'm not sure that it's the defending yourself bit that most people are uncomfortable about, rather more the invasion of other countries.





We're invading Australia next...


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

doh - that photo was taken before she had the 5 kids - silly me 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=329994


----------



## ZzzzDad (1 September 2008)

Even Sarah Palin had time to visit the wounded troops at Landstuhl Medical Center in Germany, something Obama found inconvenient because he could not bring his entourage - so he went to the gym instead:

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2008/07/palin-versus-ob.html


Sunday, July 27, 2008
Palin versus Obama at Landstuhl
Some politicians only bother to undertake good deeds when they can bring their campaign reporters and photographers. Others are more decent and less craven.

In July 2007, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) traveled to a U.S. military base in Kuwait to visit Alaska National Guard soldiers who provide logistical support for our operations in Iraq. On her return trip, she stopped to visit wounded troops at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. 

Although most of the many photos I've re-published of Gov. Palin have come either from press sources or the Alaska gubernatorial state website, the particular photograph I re-published of her at Army Private James Pattison's bedside (which I include again below) was taken by an official U.S. military photographer (Airman 1st Class Kenny Holston) and published on the internet on the website of the Alaska Department of Military & Veterans Affairs.

Click on link for pictures.


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

at least Obama didn't singlehandedly prevent POW / MIA relatives from getting access to records 

Hell their wouldn't even have been any Iraqi GI wounded if they'd listened to Obama instead of to McCain /Bush


----------



## Calliope (1 September 2008)

Doris said:


> *KTVA, Local CBS Affiliate, Reports On Palin Trooper-Gate Scandal*





Now I call that dedication. You are burning the midnight oil to dig up dirt on Palin.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2008)

I was just wondering if there will be as much interest/coverage of our elections in the US press and on US trading boards; and what we could conclude from that.


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

Calliope said:


> Now I call that dedication. You are burning the midnight oil to dig up dirt on Palin.




Nothing new there, calliope, it's mentioned in post #191 
It's a controversial one, and unlikely to do her any harm apparently.  (Man allegedly tasered his kids etc - sheesh.    ...... Reminds me of the student who was tasered for asking Kerry why wasn't Bush impeached over practices during previous elections.)



> She has welcomed an investigation into whether she orchestrated the firing of a state trooper who went through a messy divorce with her sister.




Digressing, I like the suggestion that she's popular because Alaska is the furthest state from Washington lol  ( apart from Hawaii I guess).

And aren't they all happy that GWB is too busy to speak at the convention 

Also I wonder if Hagee regrets claiming that God sent Katrina to break up the gay convention - and now seems to have sent Gustav on the eve of the GOP convention.   What an idiotic thing to say - that God could plan a thing like the Katrina fiasco - where 1000 died in New Orleans alone 

Also whether McCain regrets inviting Hagee to join his campaign, considering he is so pally with such a hateful God  (who incidentally exploited such incompetent behaviour from State and Fed govts at the time). 

And they STILL haven't finished the levee banks !!  - still, will give GWB a chance for a photo opportunity inspecting the unfinished banks I guess 

couple of poems here (and the one before):-
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=330028


----------



## Calliope (1 September 2008)

2020:topic But on politics generally. I came across a quote by Lilly Tomlin (do you remember her?)

"Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent, hard-working honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity. But then - we elected them."


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

might as well post this for the record. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/01/2351311.htm



> Bush is keen to avoid the criticism he faced over the poor response to Hurricane Katrina three years ago.
> 
> *The storm has forced other drastic changes to the Republican conventions. Most events planned for Monday's opening day have been cancelled and Republicans will hold back on making any political attacks on the Democrats*.
> 
> ...




"projectiles" -    Memories of Cyclone George up in the Pilbara

I wonder if the State and/or Fed Govt will chip in for the accommodation of evacuees - considering the main reason they're leaving is probably that the "Rapid Response Team" after Katrina haven't finished the levee banks etc yet


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

..........


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 September 2008)

She might read the Bible, but obviously doesn't have many of Noah's genes in her 

http://www.greendaily.com/2008/08/29/sarah-palins-environmental-record-baked-alaskan/



> *As the blog Red, Green and Blue points out, she has gone on record as one of those people who still believe that global warming may not be an anthropogenic phenomenon ("I'm not one though who would attribute it [global warming] to being man-made," quoth she). Interestingly, McCain himself has acknowledged that climate change is anthropogenic.
> 
> ....  Palin seems determined to keep pesky species (polar bears etc) extirpations from diminishing oil company profits in any way.
> 
> *As you might be able to infer from the previous point, Palin is a strong advocate of opening up ANWR to drilling. When asked about environmentalists' arguments against the move, and the idea that the small amount of oil available up there would barely make a dent in gas prices (and would be gone quite soon), Palin first pointed out that since ANWR doesn't have mountains and rivers, it's not worth saving; then snapped, "I beg to disagree with any candidate who would say we can't drill our way out of our problem or that more supply won't ultimately affect prices. Of course it will affect prices."


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

...


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2008)

From The Times


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812714086443822650

Riots at the Republican Convention. - how serious? - we'll find out in due course no doubt.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812714086443822650
> 
> Riots at the Republican Convention. - how serious? - we'll find out in due course no doubt.




This article covers both the riots, and the expectant grandmother (spinning it into a positive of course )   :-

http://www.bruneinews.net/story/401665


----------



## snapperhunter (2 September 2008)

Thanks for posing the Google references guys... they are great!


----------



## Julia (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ...



That is just so gorgeous, 2020.
Unbearable to think of those beautiful creatures being hunted.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

Julia
yep, I have a problem with shooters too.  (something missing in there somewhere )  
(different if they are pest proportions of course) 

on another subject
I was wonderin why we in Aus are so into criticising politicians (and tall poppies of any description) ...
and possibly even larrakin in the process...

and a South African friend just rang and we discussed things incl politics - 

and he says - "you know, ....  it's what we could never do back in Capetown,  - criticise the Govt -  and I find it just flaming delightful"


----------



## Doris (2 September 2008)

Incredible gossip surrounds the Alaskan Tall Poppy!  

*This would not have happened had McCain chosen a male VP!* 

* Palin's 4 month old baby is not hers... it's her daughter's...
("she was too skinny when she was pregnant to really be pregnant...
... her daughter had a lot of time off school"...)

* "Palin's baby must be hers... now her 17yo daughter is 5 months pregnant."

Palin supports the ban on sex education in schools in Alaska.
"This belongs in the home."
Hmm...

At least it takes bad press from Obama I guess.
I do like his sincerity in demanding her family life be kept out of politics.


----------



## Calliope (2 September 2008)

Doris said:


> At least it takes bad press from Obama I guess.
> I do like his sincerity in demanding her family life be kept out of politics.





But you have no intention of following his example:headshake


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

Calliope said:


> But you have no intention of following his example:headshake




Calliope you only have one modus operandi  dont you, ..
 ad hominem 

Doris gives two sides to the argument - call it topical - but you still find fault.


----------



## Calliope (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Calliope you only have one modus operandi  dont you, ..
> ad hominem
> 
> Doris gives two sides to the argument - call it topical - but you still find fault.




Well might you be embarrassed. Sir Galahad riding to the rescue of the indefensible.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Riots at the Republican Convention. - how serious? - we'll find out in due course no doubt.




allegedly / apparently 7000 peaceful anti-war demonstrators, 
and 200 anarchists neither Democrat nor Republican (confirmed by Gingrich)

Comments about handloing of the Gustav situation, and of the expectant grandmother matter. 

 Number Of Violent Protesters At the RNC




> Sean Hannity falsely announced on last night's (9/1/08) Hannity & Colmes that "thousands of violent anti-war protesters descended on the site of the Republican National Convention earlier today assaulting police officers, breaking windows and throwing bottles at convention goers." But moments later, even Newt Gingrich noted that the number was much lower and that the vast majority of the protesters were not violent. What was never discussed, unfortunately, was the appropriateness of the reactions of the police. Also not discussed was the wrongful arrest of journalist Amy Goodman and two of her producers who were there covering the protests. .... etc.






> *After Hannity made that announcement, which was a FOX News alert, Gingrich (part of an all Republican line up of guests), noted, "I think there are two different groups out here, in all fairness... There are probably 7,000, 7500 people who are anti-war protesters -- peaceful, you know, walking around -- no mask, no problem. There's about 200 people who are nuts, who call themselves anarchists, who put masks on."*


----------



## Julia (2 September 2008)

Doris said:


> Incredible gossip surrounds the Alaskan Tall Poppy!
> 
> *This would not have happened had McCain chosen a male VP!*
> 
> ...



Doris, my instinctive response to this post was exactly as Calliope has replied.

But then I have to say that you are possibly justified in calling attention to the result of Ms Palin's philosophy about no contraception to teenagers. (I don't know what she determines as the upper age limit here, e.g. can a girl get a prescription  for the pill or can a boy buy condoms at age 18, perhaps?)

How utterly unrealistic is this philosophy which is essentially one of denial about the sexual behaviour of young people in the 21st century.  Ditto her stand against abortion.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

For starters, "Stop Loss" will cost McCain a heap of votes amongst the serving military.

Telling people their contract with the Army has been extended (against their will)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy


> Stop-loss, in the United States military, is the involuntary extension of a service member's active duty service under the enlistment contract in order to retain them beyond their initial end of term of service (ETS) date. It also applies to the cessation of a permanent change of station (PCS) move for a member still in military service. Stop-loss was used immediately before and during the first Persian Gulf War. Since then, it has been used during American military deployments to Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo and during the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks and the subsequent military actions against Afghanistan and Iraq (see War on Terror).
> 
> *The policy has been legally challenged several times, however federal courts have consistently found that military service members contractually agree that their term of service may be involuntarily extended.*


----------



## Doris (2 September 2008)

Julia said:


> But then I have to say that you are possibly justified in calling attention to the result of Ms Palin's philosophy about no contraception to teenagers. (I don't know what she determines as the upper age limit here, e.g. can a girl get a prescription  for the pill or can a boy buy condoms at age 18, perhaps?)
> 
> How utterly unrealistic is this philosophy which is essentially one of denial about the sexual behaviour of young people in the 21st century.  Ditto her stand against abortion.




No pills, no condoms, no sex - until marriage.

I feel so sorry for Bristol... having to carry her brother on stage to hide her bulge! Poor kid!



> (CNN) – Sarah Palin, who announced on Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, indicated during her run for Alaska governor that she was a firm supporter of abstinence-only education in schools.
> 
> In a 2006 Eagle Forum questionnaire, Palin indicated that *she supported funding abstinence-until-marriage education programs* instead of teaching sex-education programs.
> 
> "Explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," Palin wrote in the conservative group’s questionnaire.




Well... McCain chose someone with his values:



> In Senate votes, McCain has opposed some proposals to pay for teen-pregnancy prevention programs. In 2006, McCain joined fellow Republicans in *voting against* a Senate Democratic proposal to send *$100 million to communities for teen-pregnancy prevention programs that would have included sex education about contraceptives*.
> 
> In 2005, McCain opposed a Senate Democratic proposal that would have spent tens of millions of dollars to pay for pregnancy prevention programs *other than abstinence-only education*, including education on emergency contraception such as the morning-after pill.




I read today that the US spends $187 million a year on abstinence sex-education!



> The United States has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates of the industrialized world, despite the legalization and availability of various forms of contraception. Actually, *teen birth rates are on the rise for the first time in 15 years, as 3 in 10 girls in the US become pregnant by age 20*.


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 September 2008)

Doris,
You have proven that you are no better than the Daily Kos nutcases.  Obama is no better, denying his people were involved in this stuff, yet not condemning them by name - Daily Kos, Moveon, Democraticunderground, etc.

You have shown yourself.

This is the nastiness of the extreme left in the Democratic party, and their blogger contingent.

The Palin family will take this baby of Bristol's and love it.  They won't be killing it, it will grow up and lead a life just as meaningful as our own.


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 September 2008)

Doris said:


> Incredible gossip surrounds the Alaskan Tall Poppy!
> 
> *This would not have happened had McCain chosen a male VP!*
> 
> ...




Supposedly, Obama wants this stuff stopped, but his people, especially his biggest admirer on this forum keeps it going.

Nasty stuff - congratulations on it - that is what the left is nowadays.

Our side on this thread have not stooped to the crazy stuff some have posted on Obama - the Muslim falsehoods, that he hates America, etc.  That stuff is totally wrong.  We have stayed with the policy issues, and his associations.

Not so the Obama worshippers


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

well I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that anyone who poses for an election (not meant to be punny in the chinese sense) in the process of taking off her pants to reveal a luminescent gold G string  - is hardly likely to be the mother of a nun.  (post #274 refers)

Zimmerman on sex education  :- 
"the other thing they want to teach these days is abstinence only sex education etc ....

 "Abstain With Me" by Roy Zimmerman


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

Heck, I'll go even further out on a limb and say she's hardly likely to get the respect that, say,  Condoleezza Rice currently enjoys on the world stage.  (to say nothing of how she's viewed in "the other" fanatical religious countries (i.e. apart from USA).

(or even amongst eastern countries, China, Japan etc - they'll have trouble keeping a straight face when they bow to each other etc)


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

Hey ZZD - here's the ultimate in electability..
A team with experience and good looks ..


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 September 2008)

2020, are you too dumb to know that MAXIM cover that is floating over the internet is photo shopped?

Not the brightest guy in the world obviously.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

Interesting that chances of a Palin withdrawal increases from 3% to 18% (oops settled back to 12%)
 not that I'd bet on it . 

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/02/technology/kimes_intrade.fortune/index.htm


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2008)

I've got a fantastic idea!

Let's all behave like adults in these politics threads.

Particularly as none of us (with the exception of Webs and Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) can vote.


----------



## Timmy (3 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> I've got a fantastic idea!
> 
> *Let's all behave like adults in these politics threads.*
> 
> Particularly as none of us (with the exception of Webs and Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) can vote.




Amen to that...c'mon people, respect for others and less of the name-calling.


----------



## websman (3 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> I've got a fantastic idea!
> 
> Let's all behave like adults in these politics threads.
> 
> Particularly as none of us (with the exception of Webs and Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) can vote.





I'm voting for McCain.


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

well , pretend my post #309 was a cartoon I saw in the Times 

One's pretty
the other's ugly
together they're pretty ugly


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

Seems that a sense of excitement is developing / building 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109966/Republicans-Still-Face-Enthusiasm-Gap-Democrats.aspx

from Aug 30-31


> The latest USA Today/Gallup poll finds a slight uptick in voter enthusiasm compared with a week ago, prior to the Democrats' holding their convention and John McCain's choosing his vice-presidential running mate.
> 
> Both Democrats and Republicans show slight increases in their enthusiasm about this year's election, though Democrats continue to hold a significant advantage over Republicans, 61% to 42%.


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 September 2008)

Nice Palin video:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quvBbcFDPI0



Very Alaska - different way of life that you just wouldn't understand unless you live there.

Sarah is going to knock it out of the park tomorrow night.

(Thanks Wayne for the embedding tip for the video in a previous post)


----------



## Doris (3 September 2008)

My best friend on this planet lives in Orange County.  We are soul mates. 

... don't mention the war - or talk about politics and religion!



> G'Day Dori,
> 
> I think Sarah Palin is fantastic!  She is a woman with enormous integrity and strength who will help the GOP give Obama a run for his money.  She LIVES the Conservative right's value system and has proven it under the harshest of circumstances.  To elect to raise a Down syndrome baby and then to announce her position on her 17 yr old daughter's pregnancy has won over everyone. This was a credibility gap for McCain.  Furthermore, she is actively working to wipe out corruption in the most macho of states - Alaska.  I think the woman has a huge future and I now think that McCain has a solid chance at the Presidency.
> 
> ...


----------



## ZzzzDad (3 September 2008)

*Read this rather long article to see one of the reasons John McCain picked Sarah Palin:*


A Negotiator Without Preconditions
By James P. Lucier 
Published 9/3/2008 12:08:20 AM
Would you trust Sarah Palin to negotiate with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without preconditions?

Well, why not? 

Palin came into the governor's office and found a mess on her desk. The oil deal struck by defeated Republican governor Frank Murkowski wasn't working. Through creative accounting by big oil and ambiguous reporting standards, the Murkowski plan just wasn't giving the State of Alaska the pay-off that was expected. So the former mayor of Wasilla (population 9,000, as the MSM always points out) demanded that the agreement be renegotiated and the terms be nailed down. They laughed when she sat down to negotiate, but in the end she had a new deal that delivered 50 percent of the oil revenues to the Alaska Permanent Fund, and enabled Palin to send a check for $1,200 to every qualified Alaskan citizen.

Now one of the major companies involved was BP, a.k.a. British Petroleum, before that, the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. It was Anglo-Iranian, at that time a British parastatal (70 percent owned by the British government and the Bank of England) that started the Middle East conflict in 1958. Anglo-Iranian was using creative accounting and payments to dummy corporations to pretend to the Iranian government that there was virtually no profit. They demanded that the Iranian government uphold the original contract made decades before. Prime Minister Mohammed Mossedegh threatened to nationalize Anglo-Iranian. The British responded with a naval blockade of Iranian ports. 

The Americans stepped in to help. U.S. Ambassador George McGehee, an experienced former petroleum engineer, and Gen. Richard Walters, the linguistic wizard, huddled with Mossedegh in sessions in Washington and New York. They got him to agree to accept a 50-50 split, a reasonable proposal by the then international standard, similar to the contract that U.S.-owned Aramco had renegotiated with Saudi Arabia. But the British refused. Instead they plotted a coup against the Iranian government, and then prevailed upon on the incoming Eisenhower administration to implement it with the assistance of British agents on the ground. Iranian production was taken over by an international coalition that agreed to the 50-50 split. There was plenty enough blame to go around on all sides, but one of the first acts of Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979 was to toss out all foreign oil companies and confiscate their assets.

Today BP, the former Anglo-Iranian, is the third largest global energy corporation. It now claims to be privatized, and it is estimated that 70 percent of the shares are owned by British investors. At one time the Kuwait Investment Office held over 21 percent of the shares. It tried, and failed, to merge the two companies, but was blocked by a British government inquiry. Under Prime Minister Thatcher, the company went private and on a spending spree. BP bought up Standard Oil of Ohio (Sohio), Standard Oil of Indiana (Amoco) and Atlantic Richfield (Arco). BP became a major player in the U.S. petroleum industry, including Prudhoe Bay and the Alaska Pipeline. And despite its advertising campaign trying to suggest that BP means "Beyond Petroleum," the company has one of the worst environmental records in the United States with its refineries blowing up and its pipelines bursting, the result -- as testimony showed -- of parsimonious budgets for maintenance. It is a formidable corporation.

So enter the PTA community organizer from Wasilla. Without preconditions she took on a company that has a market cap of $205 billion and annual revenues of $291 billion in worldwide operations. Its budget is larger than that those of most sovereign countries, yet she won on her terms. If she can outsmart BP, the company that started the Middle East conflict, she can easily outsmart Ahmadinejad, if need be.

Then to follow up that act, she got the Alaskan Legislature to approve development of the TransCanada gas pipeline, a $40 billion deal that will go 1,715 miles from the treatment plant at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, to the Alberta hub in Canada, from which it will be transferred to the United States. This project had been sitting around for 30 years on hold because the big energy companies didn't think it would be profitable, and their corrupt cronies in the legislature obediently kept it on the shelf. Crusading against corruption and negotiating across the aisle, Palin not only got it passed in record time, but opened up the bidding when the U.S. companies were reluctant to jump in. So she went ahead and awarded the contract to low-bidder TransCanada Alaska, a firm that has already built 36,000 miles of pipelines in North America. As a final fillip, the Governor signed the bill at the Alaska AFL-CIO biennial convention. While Barack Obama's solution to the energy problem is to urge us to check the air in our tires, Palin's solution is to start building a $40 billion gas pipeline, without Federal government assistance.


SO HOW DOES the experience of Sarah Palin stack up against the experience of Joe Biden? There are some people who confuse experience in the Senate with seniority. In the Senate you get to be Chairman of something or other if you sit around long enough until all those with higher seniority pass out of the picture. Merit has nothing to do with it. That's how Biden got to be chairman of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. 

Most people don't realize that the SFRC is one of the dustier corners of the Senate, largely populated with snoozing Rhodes Scholars, UN-firsters, and people who intuitively know how to pronounce the name of Kyrgyzstan and how to use it in a sentence. Occasionally someone gets on the committee who is more interested in American relations with other countries, rather than their foreign relations with us, and that wakes up the committee. Usually, ambitious politicians go elsewhere. The committee's main business is to pass the Foreign Relations act, which authorizes money for the State Department and its overseas operations. Occasionally, a treaty wanders by. Sometimes the SFRC doesn't have the clout to get its bills to the Senate Floor, so it gets ignored while all of its functions are packaged into the appropriations bills, without new authorization. 

No Senator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has authority under the U.S. Constitution to conduct foreign relations or to negotiate treaties. That's why Biden has no experience in foreign relations, and Palin does. He just talks about foreign policy, and talks...and talks. Biden's long tenure on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is not necessarily a red badge of courage. He thinks he has experience, but most of his experience is wrong. We can look at a few examples of the results of his experience, and ask What Would Sara Palin Do?

If Sara Palin were campaigning for President, she probably would not have made the centerpiece of that campaign a cockamamie plan to divide Iraq into three autonomous regions.

Sarah Palin probably would not have told General Petraeus that he was "dead flat wrong" on the surge.

Sarah Palin probably would not have voted against the first Gulf War.

Sarah Palin probably would not have opposed the United States designation of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organization.

Sara Palin probably would not have told top Israeli officials, as reported in the Israeli press, that Israel would just have to learn to live with a nuclear-armed Iran.

Sara Palin probably would not have assumed that the answer to failed diplomatic negotiations with Iran was more diplomatic negotiations with Iran.

The word "probably" must be used because we can only speculate on the basis of her barracuda-like instincts. 

*But there is one thing of which we can be sure: If Sarah Palin had been in the Senate in 1973, she would not have been one of the five Senators opposing the Alaska Pipeline Bill.*


James P. Lucier, Sr. is a former Staff Director of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


*The Dems are really underestiming our Sarah*


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> 2020, are you too dumb to know that MAXIM cover that is floating over the internet is photo shopped?
> 
> Not the brightest guy in the world obviously.



Certainly the cover is fake
and certainly the "Pro-Life"  / "Bomb Iraq" placard cartoon is photo shopped ( I did it 

but is the photo a con? - complete with GOP elephant. ? 

btw here's the proof that the cover is a con. (the date has changed on that website.)


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

ZZD , you were saying that everyone should leave Bristol alone. - stop talking about it etc. 
Are you aware that the propspective son - in- law is (apparently) being flown to the convention - to feature in the show.?   and/or be publicised together with Bristol.  

Their claim to fame ?? - I'll let you complete the sentence. 
Apparently he's on facebook saying he doesn't want kids.  
weird.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ZZD , you were saying that everyone should leave Bristol alone. - stop talking about it etc.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/04/2354853.htm


> Palin to address Republican convention
> Posted 1 hour 15 minutes ago
> 
> US Republican Senator John McCain will be formally nominated as his party's presidential candidate today, but the focus will once again be on his controversial running mate Sarah Palin and her scheduled address to the Republican national conference.
> ...






> Ms Palin's personal life became a hot topic of discussion after she revealed her daughter's pregnancy.
> 
> Her candidacy has excited Republicans because she has earned a reputation for taking on entrenched interests in Alaska and is staunchly pro-gun and anti-abortion.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

> ...  staunchly pro-gun and anti-abortion



more oxymorons 
(like military intelligence)


----------



## websman (4 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Nice Palin video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I'll be watching!


----------



## Doris (4 September 2008)

This should be one incredible speech shortly, after being holed up in her hotel since Sunday night (US time) with McCain's top advisers teaching her about his policies and helping her write her speech.  

It's a make or break speech but with the GOP machine doing it's best she will no doubt astound us all.


----------



## ZzzzDad (4 September 2008)

Absolutely incredible speech by Governor Sarah Palin.  She hit it out of the park.  We saw a future Vice President and President of the United States tonight.  The Democratic pundits are in full panic mode.

Biden is expected to call in sick the night of the Vice Presidential debate one month hence!!  What else could he do?


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/04/2355381.htm



> As she continued, a woman holding up her hand a gesturing with a peace sign was removed from the floor of the convention by security men.




Sounds like it had a lot in common with a shareholders AGM in Japan


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/04/2355381.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like it had a lot in common with a shareholders AGM in Japan




roll over red rover 

gg


----------



## Julia (4 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> A  We saw a future Vice President and President of the United States tonight.  The Democratic pundits are in full panic mode.
> 
> Biden is expected to call in sick the night of the Vice Presidential debate one month hence!!  What else could he do?




ZzzDad, you can't be serious!   This moose-hunting, small town, hockey mom president of the USA?   Her home-spun hokey assertiveness might be just fine in a frontier State, but that's a long way from cutting it on the world stage.


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

Julia said:


> ZzzDad, you can't be serious!   This moose-hunting, small town, hockey mom president of the USA?   Her home-spun hokey assertiveness might be just fine in a frontier State, but that's a long way from cutting it on the world stage.




Julia - the Democrats make the same mistake every time.  They try to diminish the Republicans, in effect lowering the expectations of the public toward the Republican candidate when the debates come.  See, the Democrats always think they are the smartest person in the room.  When the Republican candidate goes toe to toe with the Democrat - in this case Palin against Biden, the Democrats think they are going to eat her alive.  All she has to do in a case like this is hold her own.  She will do that.  After the debate people will say "whoa, I thought she was going to do terrible, but she didn't".  The Democrats sabotage themselves always.  As I said, they have this overconfidence that they are the smartest person in the room, but all the public sees is elitism.  Ask Al Gore and John Kerry.  Barack Obama is in the same mold.

Sarah Palin is a lot better candidate and a lot smarter than you and everybody else give her credit for.  In a way, I'm glad the expectations are so low for her, that way, when she hits it out of the park, the effect is tremendous.  The American people will connect with this lady, she is already generating a grass roots appeal that is reminiscent of Ronald Reagan.

She is the future, along with Bobby Jindal, of the the Republican party.

Everyone has to come from somewhere, and in America, the farther from Washington DC the better.


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

CBS Poll: McCain, Obama Tied

(CBS) The presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote. 

This is in contrast to a poll conducted last weekend, where the Obama-Biden ticket led McCain-Palin by eight points, 48 percent to 40 percent. 

McCain has also closed the enthusiasm gap some with Obama, but it still exists. Fifty-five percent of Obama's supporters are enthusiastic about their choice, and now so are 35% of McCain's. Last weekend, just 25 percent of McCain's supporters were enthusiastic about him, compared to 67 of Obama's supporters. 

This week's polling continues to show voters waiting to decide about Sarah Palin (see yesterday's poll on Palin). But in interviewing done yesterday, 83 percent of registered voters said that spouse and family of a candidate will not affect their votes. 

Other factors within the race and overall opinions of the candidates, however, have remained similar from this weekend. 

Thirty-eight percent say they have a favorable view of Obama, compared 34 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided. For McCain, it's 37 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided. 

McCain maintains his large advantage on the likelihood of being an effective commander-in-chief - 46 percent of voters say it is "very likely" McCain would be an effective commander-in-chief, compared to 24 percent who say that about Obama. 

But McCain still has one big deficit to make up -- just 44 percent of voters say he understands their needs and problems, compared with 60 percent who say that about Obama.


----------



## cuttlefish (5 September 2008)

I haven't been following any of this that closely but this seems like a very clever move by McCain.   McCain has an airtight conservative image and doesn't need to do any more to win the conservative vote over, and the roughness and gutsiness of Palin (and family) is a good counter point that will help to appeal to a broader section of the US populace.  It is going to be an interesting contest from here and a closer race than I anticipated.


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

And she is only running for Vice President!!

More than 40 million tune in to Palin’s speech
Both Palin and Obama reached about the same number of viewers

updated 3:38 p.m. CT, Thurs., Sept. 4, 2008
LOS ANGELES - More than 40 million people tuned in to the Republican convention Wednesday to hear vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin introduce herself to voters.

That audience rivaled the one for Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama last week. Nielsen Media Research estimated 37.2 million people watched Palin on either ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News Channel or MSNBC. PBS estimated it had four million viewers for the speech.

Last week Obama had 38.4 million viewers on the commercial networks, topping 40 million with PBS and C-SPAN added in.

Those are bigger audiences than the “American Idol” finale or Academy Awards.

*Viewers were far more interested in Palin than Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden. Biden’s speech to Democrats last week was seen by an estimated 24 million people.*

*Sarah POWER!!!*


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

cuttlefish said:


> I haven't been following any of this that closely but this seems like a very clever move by McCain.   McCain has an airtight conservative image and doesn't need to do any more to win the conservative vote over, and the roughness and gutsiness of Palin (and family) is a good counter point that will help to appeal to a broader section of the US populace.  It is going to be an interesting contest from here and a closer race than I anticipated.




Actually, with all due respect, you have it a little backward cuttlefish.  Sarah Palin is actually the more conservative.  She has really ignited the Republican base.  John McCain is less conservative, and is more courting the moderates and independants.  The conservative base has only grudgingly accepted McCain.  That being said, the sheer force and charisma of Sarah Palin is also helping to win over moderates and independants.


----------



## websman (5 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> *Sarah POWER!!!*




What about this possibility?   After the McCain runs two terms, Palin runs for president, with Bobby Jindle as vice president.  after that...A Bobby Jindle presidency???   Looks to me like the good old USA may be in for some exciting times!


----------



## websman (5 September 2008)

Julia said:


> ZzzDad, you can't be serious!   This moose-hunting, small town, hockey mom president of the USA?   Her home-spun hokey assertiveness might be just fine in a frontier State, but that's a long way from cutting it on the world stage.




I believe you are badly mistaken... Do you think that she is inferior because she's from the country?  LOL    

*Country boys...and girls can survive!   *


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

websman said:


> What about this possibility?   After the McCain runs two terms, Palin runs for president, with Bobby Jindle as vice president.  after that...A Bobby Jindle presidency???   Looks to me like the good old USA may be in for some exciting times!





You've got that _ALMOST_ right, except that I prefer that McCain would serve just _ONE_ term, and _THEN_ hand it over to Palin and Jindal!!!


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> You've got that _ALMOST_ right, except that I prefer that McCain would serve just _ONE_ term, and _THEN_ hand it over to Palin and Jindal!!!



he'd be 81 is he served two terms


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> he'd be 81 is he served two terms




80

You do tend to exaggerate 2020


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> 80
> 
> You do tend to exaggerate 2020



quite right - I stand corrected.
Then again , he will be 80 and a few months lol. - and at that age, do 9 months either way make much difference?  (blame the ABC lady who said he'd just had a birthday - and had turned 73) 

Hey, who knows, he might have introduced stop-loss for politicians by then


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> quite right - I stand corrected.
> Then again , he will be 80 and a few months lol. - and at that age, do 9 months either way make much difference?  (blame the ABC lady who said he'd just had a birthday - and had turned 73)
> 
> Hey, who knows, he might have introduced stop-loss for politicians by then




Ha! Ha!

I am on record predicting and hoping he will only serve one term, and then step down and leave it for the new generation in 2012.  I think he plans to go to Washingon and really shake it up, and then retire.  

Of course, some of you guys are still under the delusion that Obama will win.


----------



## Julia (5 September 2008)

websman said:


> I believe you are badly mistaken... Do you think that she is inferior because she's from the country?  LOL
> 
> *Country boys...and girls can survive!   *



No. Not because she is from the country.


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

I'd love to know what Terri Irwin and/or Ross Garnaut think of Palin   (THose are two people I admire btw)

Since Palin is 
a) firmly in denial about AGW - probably about GW - who knows -  and 
b) determined not even to take the cautious option of giving it the benefit of any doubt - despite the consequences of failure.   

It would have to be a complete slap in the face to the substantial runs on the board in European efforts in carbon reduction.. 

PS the caption for this one reads :-



> "I'm none too proud of that one, He thought I was taking his picture"


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

PS John 
Is it too late to change your VP choice 

Having said that she's currently taking on the miners in Aus and the wildlife can't spare her absence for 4 years .  .. 

what a lady - what a genuine heroine !!


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

"Perhaps they sent all their speech-writers over to Sarah Palin's house, and no-one was helping John McCain with his"  


 McCain's Speech Worst Ever for a Nominee Since Carter 1980


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 September 2008)

Check out the 1m38s mark ....  (and the 3m32s) 
final comment (fair) "There are grey areas in war" 

 Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia


----------



## websman (5 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> It would have to be a complete slap in the face to the substantial runs on the board in European efforts in carbon reduction..




Board in European efforts in carbon reduction???  

 I think I'm going to drive my SUV a few extra miles today...and maybe this weekend, I'll go to Alaska and shoot a Polar Bear.:shoot:


----------



## websman (5 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha! Ha!
> 
> I am on record predicting and hoping he will only serve one term, and then step down and leave it for the new generation in 2012.  I think he plans to go to Washingon and really shake it up, and then retire.
> 
> Of course, some of you guys are still under the delusion that Obama will win.




If Obama wins, get ready for socialism at it's finest.


----------



## dotocom (6 September 2008)

Why does McCain's wife look like she has glad wrap on her face?

Her nose also look like MJ's, does she like little children?


----------



## wayneL (6 September 2008)

websman said:


> If Obama wins, get ready for socialism at it's finest.



Well, at least you yanks will understand what the rest of us have to endure. 

Hang on! You've already got socialism! Your wealth is being redistributed from proletariat to those poor deprived banks, while the political class lives high on the hog.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Check out the 1m38s mark ....  (and the 3m32s)
> final comment (fair) "There are grey areas in war"
> 
> Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia





There you go 2020, you prove your bias with this one.  Everyone knows that there are grey areas in war, innocent victims, etc.  But the Russian response to the tensions there were way over the top.  In fact, they were waiting for any little provacation to take very aggressive action.

News flash to you - the Russian government, especially Vlad the Impaler Putin are NOT good people.  They are doing an ethnic cleansing in South Ossettia and Abkhazia at this moment, and apparently all you can do is blame America and the Georgians.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

McCain TV Ratings Beat Obama in Preliminary Numbers
By Andrew Krukowski

Presidential candidate John McCain's acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention drew more television viewers than his rival Barack Obama attracted at the Democratic party's event last week, according to preliminary ratings from Nielsen Media Research.

Across all broadcast networks Thursday, Sen. McCain’s speech ended the night with a 4.8 rating/7 share, compared to Sen. Obama’s 4.3/7 average, according to overnight numbers from metered households in 55 U.S. markets measured by Nielsen. These ratings are preliminary, however, and are subject to change.

NBC’s coverage of Sen. McCain’s speech started directly at the tail end of the opening game of NFL season, with the speech pulling in a 6.3 rating/10 share, topping Sen. Obama’s speech last week by 26%. That lead-in may have boosted audiences who last night turned out in droves to watch Republican VP candidate Sarah Palin introduce herself to the country.

ABC’s showing of the McCain speech averaged a 4.5/7, down 2% from the same night of the Democratic convention last week, while CBS’ coverage took in a 3.4/5, an increase of 3%.


----------



## Sean K (6 September 2008)

I watched just about the entire Republican Love-In last night, and what a joke!

Bloody hell I hope Australia doesn't go down that path, it was a damn circus. And, I imagine an expensive one at that. 

And John McCain as an orator? Geeeesh! GWB is inspirational compared to him.

Zzzzzzzzzzz.

And, how did Elaine from Seinfeld get to be his running mate?


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

Palin Power: Fresh Face Now More Popular Than Obama, McCain

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama_mccain

Friday, September 05, 2008
A week ago, most Americans had never heard of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin. Now, following a Vice Presidential acceptance speech viewed live by more than 40 million people, Palin is viewed favorably by 58% of American voters. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 37% hold an unfavorable view of the self-described hockey mom.........

*Perhaps most stunning is the fact that Palin’s favorable ratings are now a point higher than either man at the top of the Presidential tickets this year. As of Friday morning, Obama and McCain are each viewed favorably by 57% of voters. Biden is viewed favorably by 48%. *

Hand it to McCain, he has dramatically shaken up this race, and ignited his campaign.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

kennas said:


> I watched just about the entire Republican Love-In last night, and what a joke!
> 
> Bloody hell I hope Australia doesn't go down that path, it was a damn circus. And, I imagine an expensive one at that.
> 
> ...




And the Obama coronation last week was NOT a love-in?  The Democrats spent more than 3 times as much on their convention, from what I've heard.  And the media ate it up.  They are in the tank for him.

By the way, no one ever said McCain was a great orator, just a steady hand at the wheel.


----------



## Sean K (6 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> And the Obama coronation last week was NOT a love-in?  The Democrats spent more than 3 times as much on their convention, from what I've heard.  And the media ate it up.  They are in the tank for him.



It's all a joke.


----------



## Trop Beaucoup (6 September 2008)

Obama has the media, game over. Neither are inspiratational or offer any real hope of change. Time to start looking at who is behind them pulling the strings....

jaded


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

Trop Beaucoup said:


> Obama has the media, game over. Neither are inspiratational or offer any real hope of change. Time to start looking at who is behind them pulling the strings....
> 
> jaded





It is well known that George Soros is behind Obama pulling the strings.  Nobody pulls John McCain's strings (George Bush is evidence of that).  He really is pretty much his own man - for better or worse.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

One of the big fears that John McCain has with the Palin selection is that she is going to outshine him.  There is such a grassroots groundswell for Sarah, that once they separate for campaign appearance throughout the country, she will draw Obama size crowds (and more), and John McCain will draw his normal size crowds.  This election will be very interestin.


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 September 2008)

Serious question ZZD.
(and although I post those bookie's odds, I find them increasingly hard to believe i.e. at the very least, those odds should be closer you'd think) 

But concerning Rasmussen and Gallop Polling - their published results seem to be miles apart. 

Do they have barrows to push? are they politically tainted, right and left respectively?

e.g. typical question by Rasmussen  "what do you think of Sarah Palin's georgous smile?  Is she prettier than your wife? Points out of 10?"

e.g. typical question by Gallop  "how many moose do you think that Palin woman murderd last year?    If you put lipstick on a pitbull, would you kiss it?  etc?"  

If you get my drift.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Serious question ZZD.
> (and although I post those bookie's odds, I find them increasingly hard to believe i.e. at the very least, those odds should be closer you'd think)
> 
> But concerning Rasmussen and Gallop Polling - their published results seem to be miles apart.
> ...




I don't think they are biased one way or the other, but have different formulas.  Gallup seems to fluctuate much more than Rasmussen.  Rasmussen has been very close to accurate over the past several election cycles.  I will have to do a little research for a better answer.


----------



## ZzzzDad (6 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> But concerning Rasmussen and Gallop Polling - their published results seem to be miles apart.





By the way, they are not really that far appart

Rasmussen has Obama 48 McCain 46

Gallup has Obama 48 McCain 44

Each of these two polls by the way are three day rolling averages.  Only one day of the Palin speech is included.  By Monday there should be a better indication of how much bounce McCain/Palin had.  I would bet McCain/Palin will be up in both by then.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> By the way, they are not really that far appart
> 
> Rasmussen has Obama 48 McCain 46
> 
> ...




I feel that I'm closer to getting that beer off 2020.

Its like stocks, once you get a pivot point, then a new trend begins. McCain before this last week needed a miracle. 

I think he got it in Sarah Barracuda Palin.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 September 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel that I'm closer to getting that beer off 2020.



lol - time will tell..

As for Rasmussen , I went there and searched for "graph" and it didn't want to know..

So I prefer Gallup (based on user-friendliness  ).  Certainly that graph below looks close. 

Mind you I found this on Rasmussen, and I would agree .... you can't expect to emerge from total obscurity, and with 2 months to go, not to be subjected to a heap of intense scrutiny.   

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ary_by_joe_conason/why_bristol_s_baby_matters



> Why Bristol's Baby Matters
> A Commentary By Joe Conason
> 
> Thursday, September 04, 2008 Email to a FriendAdvertisementFamilies deserve privacy about family matters, but families that want absolute privacy should stay out of politics. Sooner or later someone would have noticed the pregnancy of Bristol Palin, 17-year-old daughter of John McCain's vice-presidential pick, especially since everyone in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska, seemed to know already.
> ...




She seems to contradict him on many matters . So who's boss ? 
and if he dies in harness,  (not wishing harm on anyone etc), do we switch over to a Pauline Hanson Presidency? 
(Palin Hanson?) 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 September 2008)

PS I bet the polar bears and the mooses wished she'd stayed in Idaho.

Also when the oil slicks start killing wildlife, (like a water-torture everlasting miniature of the Exxon Valdezz conditions) I'm guessing that the Eskimos with any green streak - or devotion to Eskimo religious principles  - won't thank her that much either  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanook
Eskimo gods include Nonook . the master of polar bears


> In Inuit mythology, Nanook or Nanuq[1] (Inuktitut syllabics: ᓇᓄᖅ[2]), which is from the Inuit language for polar bear, was the master of bears, meaning he decided if hunters had followed all applicable taboos and if they deserved success in hunting bears.




also Tekkeitsertok, the master of caribou,  
and Sedna , the master of sea animals.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekkeitsertok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedna_(deity)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82450


> But If I were the Mother of Nature, ..
> and my world was a breaking shell,
> And someone was pouring black oil on my birds (or polar bears) …
> and poisoning, slowly, the well,
> ...


----------



## ZzzzDad (7 September 2008)

Bounce baby bounce!!!

Released: September 06, 2008

Zogby Poll: Republicans Hold Small Post-Convention Edge

But the race is tight, as both campaigns consolidate support 


http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1548

UTICA, New York - Republicans John McCain and Sarah Palin left St. Paul, Minnesota,  with a smallish bounce overall and some energy in key demographic groups, as the race for the presidency enters a key stage and voters begin to tune in to the contest, the latest Zogby Interactive poll finds.

The McCain/Palin ticket wins 49.7% support, compared to 45.9% backing for the Obama/Biden ticket, this latest online survey shows. Another 4.4% either favored someone else or were unsure. 

Pollster John Zogby: "Clearly, Palin is helping the McCain ticket. She has high favorability numbers, and has unified the Republican Party. The striking thing here in this poll is that McCain has pulled ahead among Catholics by double-digits. On the other hand, Palin is not helping with likely voting women who are not aligned with either political party. The undecided independent women voters decreased this week from 15% to 7%, but those women went to Obama. Palin is also helping among men, conservatives, notably with suburban and rural voters, and with frequent Wal-Mart shoppers, who tend to be "values" voters who like a good value for their money."


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## ZzzzDad (8 September 2008)

September 7, 2008
Gallup Daily: McCain Moves Ahead, 48% to 45%McCain enjoying increase in support following conventionUSA Election 2008 Gallup Daily Americas Northern America PRINCETON, NJ -- The latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking update shows John McCain moving ahead of Barack Obama, 48% to 45%, when registered voters are asked for whom they would vote if the presidential election were held today.



These results are based on Sept. 4-6 interviewing, and include two full days of polling after the conclusion of the Republican National Convention last Thursday night. McCain has outpolled Obama on both Friday and Saturday, and is receiving a convention bounce just as Obama did last week.

Tomorrow's report will be the first in which all interviews were conducted after the conclusion of the convention. Gallup measures convention bounces by comparing candidate support in the last poll done entirely before a party's presidential nominating convention begins with the first polling conducted entirely after its conclusion.

McCain's 48% share of the vote ties for his largest since Gallup tracking began in early March. He registered the same level of support in early May. This is also McCain's largest advantage over Obama since early May, when he led by as much as six percentage points. Obama has led McCain for most of the campaign, and for nearly all of the time since clinching the Democratic nomination in early June.


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## 2020hindsight (8 September 2008)

....
I galluped, he galluped , they galluped, we galluped all four


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## ZzzzDad (8 September 2008)

Here is another Gallup poll released today (not the same one as posted above, that is the tracking poll 3 day average):

Notice the part where among *LIKELY voters* McCain is ahead 54-44.  This is the real polls they will be running with right before election day.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-07-poll_N.htm

WASHINGTON ”” The Republican National Convention has given John McCain and his party a significant boost, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken over the weekend shows, as running mate Sarah Palin helps close an "enthusiasm gap" that has dogged the GOP all year. 
McCain leads Democrat Barack Obama by 50%-46% among registered voters, the Republican's biggest advantage since January and a turnaround from the USA TODAY poll taken just before the convention opened in St. Paul. Then, he lagged by 7 percentage points.

The convention bounce has helped not only McCain but also attitudes toward Republican congressional candidates and the GOP in general.......

*In the new poll, taken Friday through Sunday, McCain leads Obama by 54%-44% among those seen as most likely to vote. The survey of 1,022 adults, including 959 registered voters, has a margin of error of +/”” 3 points for both samples.*

Okay, this is a convention bounce for the moment, and inevitably will fade, but if you are a betting man 2020, you might want to take advantage of those betting odds by putting some money down on McCain.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 September 2008)

Like the true gentleman and warrior he is, John McCain has offered Obama a position in his Republican cabinet post election.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/toby_h...ohn_mccain_offers_barack_obama_a_cabinet_post


gg


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## 2020hindsight (13 September 2008)

Some points to ponder ....  This Vets website entertain the possibility that he'd be the easiest person to blackmail in the "free" world.   

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcprsrel.htm



> How much more cooperation did POW McCain give his communist interrogators?
> 
> It is incumbent upon presidential candidate McCain to prove to the American people that the 5 1/2 years he spent at the mercy of communist interrogators did not make him mentally unstable and that the Vietnamese, Russians, Chinese and Cubans have nothing in their secret files about his behavior as a prisoner they could use to blackmail a President John McCain.
> 
> ...






> Sen. McCain stunned onlookers at the hearing when he rushed forward to the witness table and warmly embraced Col. Bui Tin as if he was a long, lost brother.
> 
> Candidate McCain must answer whether or not he had any contact with the Soviets while he was a prisoner of the communists.
> 
> *Candidate McCain must answer why he warmly embraced Col. Bui Tin, one of his former interrogators*.






> A McCain POW timeline proving that McCain's collaborations with the enemy continued over a three year period can be found on the internet at: http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcianhro.htm


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## ZzzzDad (13 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Some points to ponder ....  This Vets website entertain the possibility that he'd be the easiest person to blackmail in the "free" world.
> 
> http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcprsrel.htm




Shameful smears of an honorable man.  The same man as in the below excerpt:



> But enough with the snark. As Dr. Allen pursued her cutting-edge google search across the interwebs, a familiar name emerged in connection with the Obama-is-a-Muslim smear: *But enough with the snark. As Dr. Allen pursued her cutting-edge google search across the interwebs, a familiar name emerged in connection with the Obama-is-a-Muslim smear: But enough with the snark. As Dr. Allen pursued her cutting-edge google search across the interwebs, a familiar name emerged in connection with the Obama-is-a-Muslim smear: Ted Sampley
> 
> Around the same time Ted Sampley, a North Carolina man who runs his own Web site, published a similar piece. In an interview, he denied authorship of the e-mail, but said he did not doubt that his article had provided source material. “That’s the miracle of it,” Sampley said. “Once it takes off, and people start posting it on Web sites, you really have no idea how far it goes or who reads it. You get a ripple effect. It’s like a little pebble and then it gets bigger and bigger.”
> Sampley is the fantasist who says (and has said for years) that John McCain is a Manchurian Candidate, reprogrammed by Hanoi to…I don’t know, do something Communisty when he gets into power, I guess. Sampley also formed an anti-Kerry group of Vietnam Veterans in 2004 that is often confused with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and in fact is usually lumped in with them on lefty websites in order to discredit the actual Swift Boat Veterans led by John O’Neill. (Dean Esmay explained the difference in those groups here.)
> ...




Too bad this is what the anonymous internet forums have become.


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## skint (13 September 2008)

Aside from a VP candidate that wishes to teach kids that the world was made in a week or so and similar religious nonsense, are any on the the McCain side of the fence at all concerned that Palin also considers going to war with Russia might be a good idea? This is the person who could quite easily assume the presidency.




Quote from SMH:

The most controversial was when she declared herself in favour of admitting Ukraine and Georgia to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

"Wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia," Gibson asked.

"Perhaps so," she said. She called Russia's invasion of Georgia unacceptable and unprovoked. "What I think is that smaller, democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against," she said.





For those that don't know this, Russia has these things called nuclear weapons. Whilst they may make a fun popping sound, some have found them to have some unpleasant side effects. Talk about a cot case!


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## ZzzzDad (13 September 2008)

skint said:


> Aside from a VP candidate that wishes to teach kids that the world was made in a week or so and similar religious nonsense, are any on the the McCain side of the fence at all concerned that Palin also considers going to war with Russia might be a good idea? This is the person who could quite easily assume the presidency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





As to the including Georgia and Ukraine into NATO, McCain, Obama, and Biden are for it too.  Of course you leave that out, or more likely, didn't know it.

As for the creationism story - from Factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html



> No Creationism in Schools
> 
> 
> On Aug. 29, the Boston Globe reported that Palin was open to teaching creationism in public schools. That's true. She supports teaching creationism alongside evolution, though she has not actively pursued such a policy as governor.
> ...


----------



## jeflin (13 September 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel that I'm closer to getting that beer off 2020.
> 
> Its like stocks, once you get a pivot point, then a new trend begins. McCain before this last week needed a miracle.
> 
> ...





For the right or wrong reasons, Sarah Palin is attracting national interest while Obama is losing his lustre. 

People can't get enough of Sarah Palin and that has allowed Republicans to gloss over critical issues ranging from the mortgage mess, bailouts, unemployment, Iraq war, budget deficits, etc.

Obama did himself no favors with his comment on "putting lipstick on a pig." 
The tide has turned for McCain and if Obama is smart, he should refrain from personal duels but to focus on the bread and butter issues.


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## 2020hindsight (13 September 2008)

still strange surely that Georgia (with US advisers in their number) - with a month to go before the GOP convention - decides to attack South Ossetia, where they are hated and Russia is loved - knowing full well that Russia will retaliate 

and somehow ensure that Russia is painted as aggressive. 

Must be hell for some of you blokes (not you jef lol)  to drive around a city - what with hating reds and greens and those yellow varmits ....   having to pull up at traffic lights  must be the stuff nightmares are made of ..


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## skint (13 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> As to the including Georgia and Ukraine into NATO, McCain, Obama, and Biden are for it too.  Of course you leave that out, or more likely, didn't know it.
> 
> As for the creationism story - from Factcheck.org
> 
> http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html





Yes, I did know that, however both McCain and Obama have been a lot more carefule in the language they used. Whilst McCain is a worry with his 'bomb, bomb Iran' mentality, both are not in favour of conflict with Russia, and consider it to be a last resort, having exhausted other avenues. If the actuaries are correct and McCain is about even money to die or step down due to health/age issues in an 8 year stint or 35% chance in a 4 year stint, Palin could easily be in the top job. When asked about the issue, she hardly broke step before raising the prospect of war as a sensible option. 

I think her views on creationism were pretty clear in her initial comments, and later tempered for political expediency. With her penchant for "God on our side" rhetoric as far as the Bush doctrine goes (BTW, she didin't even know what that was) it seems to me to be a case of a religious extremist thinking and argueing in exactly the same way as other religious extremists who, no doubt, also consider themselves to have "God on their side". She's both dangerous and dopey. Still, given the peanut the US voted for in for the last two terms, nothing would surprise me.


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## Doris (13 September 2008)

Whoopie Goldberg asks McCain if she should be worried about becoming a slave if he wins.

... as he sidesteps Roe & Wade like a pollie.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5789112


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## noirua (13 September 2008)

The McCain team look a strong act in tougher time.  Aren't they the safer more certain option here?


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## Julia (13 September 2008)

noirua said:


> The McCain team look a strong act in tougher time.  Aren't they the safer more certain option here?



Well, sure, if you like the idea of Iran becoming the new Iraq, and a resumption of the cold war with Russia.

Just a practicality to consider, does the mighty US of A have the reserves of troops available to invade Iran and/or Russia, whilst still persisting in Iraq and Afghanistan?   And what would that do to their economy?


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## noirua (13 September 2008)

Julia said:


> Well, sure, if you like the idea of Iran becoming the new Iraq, and a resumption of the cold war with Russia.
> 
> Just a practicality to consider, does the mighty US of A have the reserves of troops available to invade Iran and/or Russia, whilst still persisting in Iraq and Afghanistan?   And what would that do to their economy?




Hi Julia, Isn't Afghanistan a no other option situation now?  Iran is probably pleased America is fighting these wars as it makes their options easier.  Russia are over the moon about it, as a weaker America is just the ticket for them.

Not enough troops to invade Iran for certain. Only one strike, if necessary, and it would have to be well thought out and decisive.


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## 2020hindsight (20 September 2008)

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/mccain-on-banking-and-health/



> McCain on banking and health
> OK, a correspondent directs me to John McCain’s article, Better Health Care at Lower Cost for Every American, in the Sept./Oct. issue of Contingencies, the magazine of the American Academy of Actuaries. You might want to be seated before reading this.
> 
> Here’s what McCain has to say about the wonders of market-based health reform:
> ...


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## ZzzzDad (21 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/mccain-on-banking-and-health/




Ha Ha, former Enron advisor Paul Krugman?  A valid unbiased source?  Thanks for the laugh 2020.

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/new/article222.html

______________________________
Paul Krugman Helped Bankrupt Enron 

By Brooks A. Mick 
Nov. 21, 2004 

Paul Krugman, the far-left, anti-Bush columnist for the New York Times--well, one out of many!-- is off on sabbatical to write an economics textbook. He is, on the surface, an economist (He was a former Princeton econ professor) and was once a chief adviser to Enron, the company which went belly up and whose officers (other than Krugman) were accused of improprieties. 
_____________________________________________________--


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## 2020hindsight (21 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha Ha, former Enron advisor Paul Krugman?  A valid unbiased source?  Thanks for the laugh 2020.
> 
> http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/new/article222.html
> 
> ...




we can get round to Enron if you wish ... but for the time being - rather than your resorting to ad hominem ... perhaps  you could answer 

a) do you agree that more regulation is required in the financial markets, and/or was the main factor in the present mess (assuming you agree we are in a mess) or do you agree with websman that you have enough already 

b) do you agree that more regulation and/or a new system  is required in the US health system ?  Or do you think that there's no "change" required?  

Remember now, Palin is all for "change" , yes?


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## 2020hindsight (21 September 2008)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/20/AR2008092001746.html?hpid=topnews



> McCain Health-Care Article Fuels New Clash Over Economy
> 
> By Dan Balz
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...




Sounds like Krugman writes, and others follow...


> The Obama campaign first learned of the McCain article when New York Times columnist Paul Krugman referenced it on Friday. Since then, officials in the campaign have spread its contents as quickly as possible.


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> This always leaves me a little bemused... a lot bemused in fact.
> 
> Why on earth would a non-American support any American political party? WTF?
> 
> ...



Now we have economics as a reason, as well as world peace. 

This is an old post wayne, (#154)
But do you agree that the current mess on the stock markets of the world is due mainly to the slashing of regulations by the Bush administration (and to some extent those before him) ...  and the subsequent sub-primal fears being realised.  

I mean, are we all happy to have a "self-correction" of these proportions come along every few years 

Hell next time / cycle,  the US might be broke, and not able to bail out the banks, insurance companies etc. 

Why shouldn't we (in Aus etc) be interested? 

The main thing that drives the ASX opening prices is surely "what happened to the Dow etc last night."  

And that's not even to mention (again) the fact that one is an avid hawke - ("why not occupy Iraq for 100 years?" etc), - happy to ramp up international tensions (and as an unavoidable consequence, extremism) ...

and the other wants to get the world back on a more even keel (with a damned site better chance of success against extremism)


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## ZzzzDad (21 September 2008)

McCain on Obama:



> Senator Obama talks a tough game on the financial markets but the facts tell a different story. He took more money from Fannie and Freddie than any Senator but the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates them. He put Fannie Mae's CEO who helped create this disaster in charge of finding his Vice President. Fannie's former General Counsel is a senior advisor to his campaign. Whose side do you think he is on? When I pushed legislation to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Senator Obama was silent. He didn't lift a hand to avert this crisis. While the leaders of Fannie and Freddie were lining the pockets of his campaign, they were sowing the seeds of the financial crisis we see today and enriching themselves with millions of dollars in payments. That's not change, that's what's broken in Washington.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




The roots of the current crisis date from the Clinton administration's insistence that EVERYONE should own a home.  The matter that many didn't qualify and would never pay back didn't matter.  Special emphasis was on certain minority groups.  Unfortunately, the Bush administration continued this policy, and here we are.


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## Calliope (21 September 2008)

An eminent visitor to Australia many years ago ( I can't remenber his name or where he was from) when questioned about the politics in his own country said;







> In my country there are two political parties, one party stands for everything that is good and the other party stands for everything that is bad. The trouble is we don't know which is which




That may not be the exact qoute, but no doubt  somebody will put me wise.


----------



## jeflin (21 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> McCain on Obama:
> 
> 
> 
> The roots of the current crisis date from the Clinton administration's insistence that EVERYONE should own a home.  The matter that many didn't qualify and would never pay back didn't matter.  Special emphasis was on certain minority groups.  Unfortunately, the Bush administration continued this policy, and here we are.




We can actually go back all the way to Alan Greenspan or even Paul Volcker. Since the 80s, deregulation and lax supervision became the order of the day and it becomes fashionable to print money to get out of every crisis.


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## 2020hindsight (21 September 2008)

Former POW says McCain is "not cut out to be President"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KjsEs46C70&feature=related



> John McCain's temperament makes it clear he's not cut out to be President of the United States


----------



## Doris (21 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Former POW says McCain is "not cut out to be President"
> John McCain's temperament makes it clear he's not cut out to be President of the United States




Too true!  A deep breathe, not flaring tonsils, is needed under CinC pressure.
Let's hope Barack's cool demeanor baits McCain by the end of the 90 minute debates - to display this temper!


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha Ha, former Enron advisor Paul Krugman?  A valid unbiased source?  Thanks for the laugh 2020.



......
 Rachel Maddow Interviews Paul Krugman


----------



## wayneL (25 September 2008)

...is asking the right questions about the oversight-less bank bailout.

But is he willing to vote against it in its current form.


----------



## Doris (25 September 2008)

McCain ad:* Obama's Fannie Mae 'Connection'*




"Obama has no background in economics. Who advises him? *The Post* says it's Franklin Raines, for "advice on mortgage and housing policy." Shocking. Under Raines, Fannie Mae committed "extensive financial fraud." Raines made millions. Fannie Mae collapsed. Taxpayers? Stuck with the bill."
--McCain video release, September 18, 2008. 


*McCain's Ad fails the The Pinocchio Test* on *The Washington Post's* Fact Checker:



> *An already nasty presidential election campaign is getting nastier*. The meltdown on Wall Street has touched off frantic attempts by both the McCain and Obama camps to secure political advantage and indulge in guilt by association. *The latest McCain attack is particularly dubious*.
> 
> *The McCain campaign is clearly exaggerating wildly* in attempting to depict Franklin Raines as a close adviser to Obama on "housing and mortgage policy." If we are to believe Raines, he did have a couple of telephone conversations with someone in the Obama campaign. *But that hardly makes him an adviser to the candidate himself -- and certainly not in the way depicted in the McCain video release*.



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/09/obamas_fannie_mae_connection.html


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

*McCain's campaign manager linked to Freddie Mac*



> The lobbying firm of John McCain's campaign manager was paid $15,000 a month for several years until last month by one of two housing companies taken over by the federal government.
> 
> *That money from Freddie Mac to Rick Davis' firm* was on top of more than $30,000 a month that went directly to Davis for five years starting in 2000.
> 
> ...



http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-advisor24-2008sep24,0,4139198.story


----------



## Doris (25 September 2008)

*The Unbelievable McCain Campaign (Continued)*

This should be good public backing for Obama's drive to rid Washington of lobbyists and PACs!



> No wonder the McCain campaign went ballistic after the New York Times reported on some *$2 million paid to McCain campaign manager Rick Davis for serving as “president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations*.”
> 
> Now it turns out that Davis’s lobbying firm received even more money from Freddie, and more recently, than Davis said.
> 
> ...



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/



> From 2000 to the end of 2005, Mr. Davis received nearly $2 million as president of the coalition, the Homeownership Alliance, which the companies* created to help them oppose new regulations and protect their status as federally chartered companies with implicit government backing*. That status let them borrow cheaply, helping to fuel rapid growth but also their increased purchases of the risky mortgage securities that proved to be their downfall.
> 
> They said Mr. Davis’s firm, Davis Manafort, *had been kept on the payroll because of his close ties to Mr. McCain*, the Republican presidential nominee, *who by 2006 was widely expected to run again for the White House*.
> 
> ...



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/u...gin&adxnnlx=1222280996-pKuMnRNjyaC+Bk1OMKO9aA


----------



## Doris (25 September 2008)

*McCain Wants Debate Delayed Amid Crisis *

Who does he think he is?  The president?  Shades of a cyclone... err hurricane!  Super Mac to the rescue! 



> "It has become clear that no consensus has developed to support the administration's proposal. *I do not believe that the plan on the table will pass as it currently stands, and we are running out of time*," the Arizona senator said in statement issued by the campaign. "Tomorrow morning, I will suspend my campaign and return to Washington."
> 
> He also called on the Commission on Presidential Debates *to delay Friday's debate*, the first of three scheduled, and he asked President Bush to convene a meeting with congressional leadership, including both himself and Sen. Obama.
> 
> ...




McCain takes control of the bailout crisis and lets the media know! 

He has adopted Obama's philosophy of bipartisan 'conversation'! 
"_We are not a red American and a blue America -- we are the United States of America_."


Oh.  But... there's Obama's side! 


> *Shortly after Sen. McCain issued his statement*, the Obama campaign issued its own, saying that *the pair is working on a joint statement on the crisis, a process they said was initiated by Sen. Obama when he called Sen. McCain at 8:30 a.m.*, according to Obama spokesman Bill Burton.
> 
> "At 8:30 this morning, Senator Obama called Senator McCain to ask him if he would join in issuing a joint statement outlining their shared principles and conditions for the Treasury proposal and urging Congress and the White House to act in a bipartisan manner to pass such a proposal," Mr. Burton said in an email to reporters. "*At 2:30 this afternoon, Senator McCain returned Senator Obama's call and agreed to join him in issuing such a statement*. The two campaigns are currently working together on the details."




Why did McCain only give half the picture?  

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122228304121472135.html


----------



## Doris (25 September 2008)

*The Drama Queen's Big Gamble*
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/24/the-drama-queens-big-gamb_n_128987.html

Seems I'm not the only one with this evaluation!



> What we are witnessing right now is what a McCain presidency would be like -- *herky jerky, bouncing from crisis to crisis, overreacting at every step.*
> 
> *It's taken him exactly ten days to go from the economy is strong to we're heading into the Great Depression and must stop the campaign.*
> 
> ...




*Some blogs on this*.  Lovem! 

# Right on the mark. This is nothing but a political gambit. It's never been, and never will be, country first. It's now and always been McCain first. We're not buying it.

# McCain is suddenly behind in the polls and he stops the debate -- the ONE chance of THREE debates he had to address a national audience unedited. His campaign managers are stupid, or they expect to thrash Obama in the last two debates so close to the election that Obama cannot recover.

# He is the poster child for insanity. He can not lead our country. He can only lead a cult of people filled with hate who have no reason left.

# McCain has little to no defenses left.
The lies and innuendo aren't working, and the Miracle Sarah is turning into a liability QUICKLY...
What better way to try to distract us once again...

Did you know that if the Govt. declares this enough of a National Emergency, HE CAN SUSPEND THE ELECTION IN NOVEMBER???

I didn't either.
I do now, and I'm a bit worried...

# Can he walk and chew gum? *Crisis management IS part of the president's task, as is multi-tasking*. And he's asking BHO to stop running ads (see Ben Smith)?! Friday night should be possible to continue - it IS the business of the people to know where their future leader stands. Another gimmick, another gamble. No more drama, vote Obama.


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## noirua (25 September 2008)

John McCain and Barack Obama have both suspended their campaigns and returned to Washington.


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## noirua (25 September 2008)

noirua said:


> John McCain and Barack Obama have both suspended their campaigns and returned to Washington.




Barack Obama has now said that comments by his campaign manager, as to suspending his campaign, is not correct. He will be continuing with his campaign.


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## blablabla (25 September 2008)

McCain never had a chance. Democrat ex-president Clinton was on TV the other night saying that the election would be decided by how well the candidates perform in the televised debates.

It is obvious that McCain is using the financial crisis as a convenient reason not to have to debate Obama. This means that the republicans will delay the bailout package by bickering in congress for another couple of weeks, as the republicans are just buying time, which of course will eventually cause the markets to tank. Then Bush will shut down the stockmarket and declare a state of emergency. The election will be suspended and Bush and Cheney will get a third term. Too easy. McCain will be out cold before he realises what hit him.

And some people say the republicans are morons?


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## Julia (25 September 2008)

Can't help feeling somewhat amused at Mr McCain's call for a pause in the election campaign to "sort things out in Washington".   "Not a time for politics" he said. "And let's cancel the debate.  Much more important things to be done."

Don't suppose he's feeling a mite nervous about the debate and - under the guise of sincere patriotism and selflessness - making one of the biggest political gestures of the campaign.


----------



## Doris (26 September 2008)

> A new LA Times/Bloomberg poll shows Obama ahead of McCain *49%-45%* nationally among likely voters.
> 
> That advantage shrinks to 46-44 among registered voters, giving the same lead to the last poll in August.
> 
> ...




MoveOn has a brand new TV ad hitting McCain on the economy: (one minute long)
(MoveOn is a non-party aligned organisation) 30% of Americans are against the $700b bailout.


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## noirua (26 September 2008)

Julia said:


> Can't help feeling somewhat amused at Mr McCain's call for a pause in the election campaign to "sort things out in Washington".   "Not a time for politics" he said. "And let's cancel the debate.  Much more important things to be done."
> 
> Don't suppose he's feeling a mite nervous about the debate and - under the guise of sincere patriotism and selflessness - making one of the biggest political gestures of the campaign.




Obama is joining McCain in Washington. JM could gain by this if he can appear to be Presidential and a prime mover in patching up this quickly cobbled together financial plan.
Obama could be seen to be a more reluctant participant as he is continuing his campaign and maybe appears not quite up to the job, when the dust clears.


----------



## Doris (26 September 2008)

How I love Letterman's _Late Show_.  Tonight's was the best one ever! (Delta Goodrem sang well at the end).

Dave introduced the show by saying McCain was to have been the main guest tonight. 
"You know John McCain - he's Sarah Palin's running mate.(lol)

"He called me at the last minute to say he was suspending his campaign and had to rush back to Washington to save the economy as it was *about to crater* so he had to cancel."

(Keep reading to see how HONEST McCain was when he 'bailed out' of Letterman's show.) Honest John? 

"You don't suspend your campaign!"  - This was interspersed all through the show.

"This doesn't smell right. This not how a seasoned hero behaves.  
Down the road he might just suspend his presidency - we've got a guy like that now!"

Dave was furious with incredulity.  
"He can't continue the campaign because he had to save the country! 
Maybe there's a new crisis because his poll numbers are sliding."

"Sarah Palin's been at the UN meeting world leaders - learning who the world leaders are. 
She also wondered if she'd get to meet Queen Latifah." (lol)

"You don't suspend your campaign! It should be shouldered by the VP nominee.  
You don't quit.  I don't have an ounce of quit in me!  
If you believe in your VP candidate you say 'I have to go back to Washington' and she says 'Gotcha'!  
I am more than a little disappointed about his behaviour."

Keith Olbermann stood in for McCain's absence - "I was just around the corner."
Actually, he was to be a guest on CBS:



> "Good evening, I'm afraid I have some bad news; we had a guest who was scheduled to appear on our show but had to cancel," CBS late-night host Craig Ferguson told his audience last night in a cold open immediately after Letterman's show wrapped.
> 
> "Keith Olbermann . . . was meant to be here, then suddenly he got a better offer!
> Curse you, Olbermann, and your -- availability to David Letterman!"




Letterman had his producers throw up the CBS in-house video feed, showing McCain getting makeup applied to his face before an interview taping. "*Now, he doesn't seem to be racing back to the airport, does he*?" Letterman asked Olbermann. "This just gets uglier and uglier," he said. 

"Let's punch up Katie Couric's interview and . . . let's see what he has to say here. I wonder if he'll mention me. 
*Hey, John! I've got a question -- you need a ride to the airport*?" Letterman said.
"This stinks," he said, adding, "It's like we caught him getting a manicure." 

Dave insisted they should let the campaign go on with the VP candidate.
Then froze as he said "Is that a smart thing to do?  Where is she?  Why isn't she doing that?  Obama and Biden are both senators so if they had to both go to Washington the Democrats would be in a hole. 

Olbermann was anxious about McCain's cancelling the debate. 
He insisted the three debates were in the space of 19 days and *one of them had to win 2 of 3*. With only two debates, there could be a tie.

*He asked what would be McCain's advantage in cancelling Friday's debate. 
* He suggested that the VP debate could be cancelled to make up for Friday's... was this the plan?

He stressed people needed to hear their policies and suggested they should flip the topic - it was on 'international'... make it on the 'economy'.
Quite a fun night.

The TopTen questions people are asking the McCain campaign:

10. I just contributed to your campaign.  How do I get a refund?
9.  Hi it's Sarah Palin.  Does this mean I get to be parsident?
8.  Can't you solve this by selling some of your homes?
7. Hi this is Clay Aiken.  Is McCain single? (I had to google him - a gay singer)
6. Do you still think the fundamentals of the economy are strong, genius?
5. Are you doing this just to get out of going on Letterman?
4. What would Matlock do?
3. Hillary here. My schedule is free Friday night.
2. Is this just an excuse to catch up on napping?
1. This is President Bush. What's all this trouble with the economy?

So, to perorate: 
- McCain cancelled Letterman's show on the pretext of having to rush back to Washington when he actually did a spot on CBS News with Katie Couric.
- Olbermann cancelled on a CBS show to help out Letterman.
- Is a cancellation of the first debate an excuse for Palin to save face and not face Biden in a VP debate?
- Is this the obvious ploy it seems to drum up 'patriotism' to impress the independents?  SuperMac 
- Is he so scared of facing Obama in a debate and being shown up?


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## 2020hindsight (26 September 2008)

thanks Doris, classic 
Wow,  McCain is the butt of a few hundred jokes here. 

3m20s, Olbermann explains the duplicity of McCain pretending it was his initiative..  
"Friday Night debate might  be  Obama vs Biden", lol.    ( towards end of second youtube) 

Olbermann will be a commentator at the debates (as against compere) - sounds good. 

 Keith Olbermann, David Letterman on Suspended Campaign Pt1
 Olbermann, Letterman on Suspended Campaign Pt2


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## ZzzzDad (26 September 2008)

Looks like it is McCain that is having the last laugh.  He just proved himself a leader, and Obama a follower.

The new Gallup tracking poll just out today gives McCain and Obama a tie at 46 to 46.

Yesterday, Obama was ahead by 3.  With just one third polled after McCain took decisive action, that is an effective nine point swing.

America is looking for a leader, and McCain is the one that is taking the bull by the horns.

Laugh all you want, but we will have the last laugh.


----------



## Green08 (26 September 2008)

Doris said:


> 30% of Americans are against the $700b bailout.




Doris I heard in CNBC last night it was 55% of Americians were against the bailout.  Do we have figures for the rest of the world?


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 September 2008)

55% a couple of days ago true. (24Sep US time) 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-econpoll24-2008sep24,0,622218.story


> Asked whether the government should use taxpayer dollars to rescue financial firms whose collapse could have adverse effects on the economy, 55% of the poll's respondents said they did not believe the government should be responsible for funding a bailout plan.






> However, opinions *about the bailout plan appear to be malleable*, perhaps because voters are still learning about the proposal. When some of those who opposed a bailout were interviewed, several said they *would reluctantly accept a bailout plan if Congress decided one was necessary*.






> It sticks in my craw," said Camille Woyak, 82, a retired office worker in Appleton, Wis., who said she opposed a bailout. "There should be some other solution. But I think the taxpayers are going to have to cover it. I don't know any other way out.
> 
> "I lived through the Depression as a little girl," she added. "I don't want to go through that again."


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2008)

Julia said:


> Can't help feeling somewhat amused at Mr McCain's call for a pause in the election campaign to "sort things out in Washington".   "Not a time for politics" he said. "And let's cancel the debate.  Much more important things to be done."
> 
> Don't suppose he's feeling a mite nervous about the debate and - under the guise of sincere patriotism and selflessness - making one of the biggest political gestures of the campaign.




Appears to be running scared, the debate could have been a great opportunity to push his case.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 September 2008)

Letterman spitting the dummy over JMc not appearing on his show will be to McCain's advantage in the long run.

Letterman's viewers are committed Dems and this sort of attack against someone who actually fought for his country will backfire on Obama.

gg


----------



## Doris (26 September 2008)

Green08 said:


> Doris I heard in CNBC last night it was 55% of Americians were against the bailout.  Do we have figures for the rest of the world?




Thanks Green08 and 2020.  I was quoting the source of that info.

It would be interesting to see worldwide figures as this would show public attitudes and warn their governments.  Oops... too late for Oz.


----------



## Doris (27 September 2008)

Julia said:


> Can't help feeling somewhat amused at Mr McCain's call for a pause in the election campaign to "sort things out in Washington".   "Not a time for politics" he said. "And let's cancel the debate.  Much more important things to be done."
> 
> Don't suppose he's feeling a mite nervous about the debate and - under the guise of sincere patriotism and selflessness - making one of the biggest political gestures of the campaign.




How politically facetious you are Julia!  Well done! 

From the WSJ today:
(So good to see they view McCain's action with their eyes open.  Even if Murdoch votes Obama!)



> Sen. McCain's decision to rush to Washington for bailout negotiations, to suspend his campaign, and to issue a bipartisan statement with Barack Obama, has been *spun by his team as an example of putting "country first*."
> 
> Out in the real world -- that is, everywhere other than in Washington -- the view may be different. The nation is in the middle of a financial meltdown. *Voters want to know how, why and what the presidential candidates propose to fix it*.
> 
> ...



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122238645982877051.html


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

Had to laugh at Letterman tonight:

John McCain wants to put off his debate until after the bailout.

Sarah Palin wants to put off her debate until after the election. lol...


Some excerpts of past debates to compensate in case McCain's a no-show:

Are JFK's and Reagan's comments/questions topical today?  Bush... well.


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## noirua (27 September 2008)

McCain will be trying out the seat in the oval office.


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## wayneL (27 September 2008)

noirua said:


> McCain will be trying out the seat in the oval office.



It might be his only chance.


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

Looks like SuperMac's ride to the rescue didn't work!

From a guest blogger on LA Times...

"Clearly McCain's gambit is political, but I think it's bad politics. I actually think a foreign-policy debate was the only hope McCain had for taking back momentum after a week in which* his lifelong devotion to corporate deregulation caught up with him, despite his lying about it*.

"McCain campaign czar Steve Schmidt apparently thinks calling on Obama to cancel the debate is another big game-changing gambit, Ã  la the Palin choice. But I think Americans will see it for what it is, a political stunt. It makes McCain look cowardly, like he's not ready to mix it up with Obama, and like he's hiding from the perilous economic developments of the last few weeks."

From some bloggers in reaction:

* McCain is playing the expectations game. *Of course he's going to show up*, and when he does, if he does well, his spinners will be all "*Look at how well he did when he didn't even prepare. That’s leadership*."

Meanwhile, if he does badly it'll be "Of course Obama was more polished he's spent the past week preparing."
It's all just a cheap ploy.

*Shame on John McCain for letting Steve Schmidt goad him into this Rovian "suspend my campaign" gambit. It's a classic case of double speak -- *no aspect of the McCain campaign has been suspended, except for the debate*, and that tells us a lot about Steve Schmidt's confidence in his candidate, and how far McCain has devolved from his "straight talk" days.

What I suspected:

*It emerged in the White House briefing today that *McCain called Bush and asked him to initiate a meeting today at 4 pm at the White House*, putatively for him to "deal with" the crisis.

That is, *McCain asked Bush to help him create an trifecta*: To try to lend some credence to McCain's desperate assertion that a suspension of his campaign is necessary, in effect either avoiding a debate in which he would face critical questions about his stance on the economy *or marching in claiming "victory*"; attempting to co opt the financial crisis thereby trying to put an end to his plummeting in the polls created by his flailing positions on the economy--perhaps best reflected by his statement days ago that the "fundamentals of the economy are strong"; and perhaps buying more time for Sarah Palin after her embarrassing photo op at the UN yesterday, by moving her debate forward as well.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/debate-mccain.html


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

Whathe! What a surprise! 

*John McCain will attend presidential debate*

The Republican candidate says progress has been made on a measure to solve the financial crisis, allowing him to take part in the Mississippi face-off with Barack Obama.


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

I ask you... who in their right mind would believe this hyperbole!


_The McCain campaign is resuming all activities._ ... they never stopped them! 


John McCain’s campaign announced that the Republican candidate will participate in tonight’s presidential debate with Democratic rival Barack Obama, and issued a statement on the negotiations over the financial rescue plan. 


*Statement By McCain Campaign On Negotiations*:

John McCain’s decision to suspend his campaign was made in the hopes that politics could be set aside to address our economic crisis.

In response, Americans saw a familiar spectacle in Washington. At a moment of crisis that threatened the economic security of American families, Washington played the blame game rather than work together to find a solution that would avert a collapse of financial markets without squandering hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ money to bailout bankers and brokers who bet their fortunes on unsafe lending practices.

Both parties in both houses of Congress and the administration needed to come together to find a solution that would deserve the trust of the American people. And while there were attempts to do that, much of yesterday was spent fighting over who would get the credit for a deal and who would get the blame for failure. There was no deal or offer yesterday that had a majority of support in Congress. There was no deal yesterday that included adequate protections for the taxpayers. It is not enough to cut deals behind closed doors and then try to force it on the rest of Congress ”” especially when it amounts to thousands of dollars for every American family.

The difference between Barack Obama and John McCain was apparent during the White House meeting yesterday where Barack Obama’s priority was political posturing in his opening monologue defending the package as it stands. *John McCain listened to all sides so he could help focus the debate on finding a bipartisan resolution that is in the interest of taxpayers and homeowners*. The Democratic interests stood together in opposition to an agreement that would accommodate additional taxpayer protections.

Senator McCain has spent the morning talking to members of the Administration, members of the Senate, and members of the House. He is optimistic that there has been significant progress toward a bipartisan agreement now that there is a framework for all parties to be represented in negotiations, including Representative Blunt as a designated negotiator for House Republicans. 

The McCain campaign is resuming all activities and *the Senator will travel to the debate this afternoon*. Following the debate, he will return to Washington to ensure that all voices and interests are represented in the final agreement, *especially those of taxpayers and homeowners*.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/09/26/mccain-campaigns-statement-on-bailout-negotiations/


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## noirua (27 September 2008)

Doris said:


> Whathe! What a surprise!
> 
> *John McCain will attend presidential debate*
> 
> The Republican candidate says progress has been made on a measure to solve the financial crisis, allowing him to take part in the Mississippi face-off with Barack Obama.




Well done John McCain, without you this could not have been achieved. Bit of help behind the scenes, no doubt, from Alaska.


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

Doris said:


> Looks like SuperMac's ride to the rescue didn't work!
> 
> *McCain asked Bush to help him create a trifecta*: To try to lend some credence to McCain's desperate assertion that a suspension of his campaign is necessary, in effect either avoiding a debate in which he would face critical questions about his stance on the economy *or marching in claiming "victory*";
> 
> ...




The trifecta:

1. marching in claiming "victory" ... didn't he just do a lot of yelling at that meeting?

2. attempting to co opt the financial crisis thereby trying to put an end to his plummeting in the polls created by his flailing positions on the economy.

3.  Will a crisis arise so Palin's debate is postponed?  Would they dare... now?


----------



## wayneL (27 September 2008)

Doris said:


> Whathe! What a surprise!
> 
> *John McCain will attend presidential debate*
> 
> The Republican candidate says progress has been made on a measure to solve the financial crisis, allowing him to take part in the Mississippi face-off with Barack Obama.



Gee I hope they show it here in Blighty. That would be worth staying up to see.


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## noirua (27 September 2008)

In these difficult financial times, and with the war in Afghanistan set to intensify, the world needs a strong experienced steady hand to take over from President Bush. 
John McCain is that person.


----------



## wayneL (27 September 2008)

noirua said:


> In these difficult financial times, and with the war in Afghanistan set to intensify, the world needs a strong experienced steady hand to take over from President Bush.
> John McCain is that person.




The US needs a President that can engage the Russians without threatening (and/or actually) shooting Nukes at each other. The US needs a president that can repair the nation's image overseas, to build bridges with its "friends". It needs someone that can restore the people's confidence in its own government and reverse the polarization of American society.

McCain is definitely not that person.

I don't know whether Obama is either, but a better shot at it IMO.

Also, just like Oz, the conervatives need a break to be able to cleanse to dross from its ranks. They'll be better for it.


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## Julia (27 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> The US needs a President that can engage the Russians without threatening (and/or actually) shooting Nukes at each other. The US needs a president that can repair the nation's image overseas, to build bridges with its "friends". It needs someone that can restore the people's confidence in its own government and reverse the polarization of American society.
> 
> McCain is definitely not that person.
> 
> ...



McCain's behaviour over the last couple of days has demonstrated how erratic he is.   
There was an interesting discussion on Radio National this morning with a Harvard Prof. who was rueing McCain's lack of economic credentials, particularly in light of the fact that his favoured adviser has suggested there is nothing much wrong with the financial system and the banks are just whining!

Maybe Obama is no more qualified, but he does seem to take a more measured and thoughtful approach.


----------



## Sean K (27 September 2008)

Julia said:


> McCain's behaviour over the last couple of days has demonstrated how erratic he is.
> There was an interesting discussion on Radio National this morning with a Harvard Prof. who was rueing McCain's lack of economic credentials, particularly in light of the fact that his favoured adviser has suggested there is nothing much wrong with the financial system and the banks are just whining!
> 
> Maybe Obama is no more qualified, but he does seem to take a more measured and thoughtful approach.



Is America, and the world, accepting the lessor of two weavels then?

Whichever way it goes......

Troubling.....


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

The debate is on SBS now!


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## ZzzzDad (27 September 2008)

McCain has won this debate hands down.  Much more knowledge and substance in his remarks.  I almost feel sorry for Obama. 

I said ALMOST.

Way to go McCain.

By the way, John Zogby, one of the most experienced pollsters in the U.S.A., and a registered Democrat, said today that  he expects the race to remain tight until one week before election day, and then break to a landslide for McCain - just like the Carter/Reagan election of 1980.  People just have too much of an uneasy feeling for Obama from his polling, and they will break for the steady old shoe instead of the new unknown kid on the block.  FWIW


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> McCain has won this debate hands down.  Much more knowledge and substance in his remarks.  I almost feel sorry for Obama.
> 
> I said ALMOST.
> 
> ...




I missed the debate. John McCain won , did he?

gg


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## Doris (27 September 2008)

Can you believe this?


----------



## Doris (27 September 2008)

*Debate Tonight: Obama-McCain Video, Highlights*

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/26/first-obama-mccain-presid_n_129569.html

Scroll down to:  9:52 for video proof of this claim:



> Jed Lewison: John McCain lied right out of the gate during tonight's debate, claiming that he had warned us about the financial crisis that we are now facing. But in November, 2007 he admitted that he hadn't seen the mortgage crisis -- the root of today's financial crisis -- coming.




How can McCain tell such blatant lies?


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## IFocus (27 September 2008)

noirua said:


> In these difficult financial times, and with the war in Afghanistan set to intensify, the world needs a strong experienced steady hand to take over from President Bush.
> John McCain is that person.




Afghanistan is not the issue Russia's rise is a much bigger deal a vote for McCain is a vote for president Palin who is not a experienced steady hand


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## noirua (28 September 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> McCain has won this debate hands down.  Much more knowledge and substance in his remarks.  I almost feel sorry for Obama.
> 
> I said ALMOST.
> 
> ...




QUITE RIGHT!
In fact, a recent poll, still ongoing, shows John McCain well out in the lead.

John McCain - 63%   

Barack Obama - 37%

Http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/09/25ad-straw-poll-sept-25-oct-2
Click-on "straw poll" tab

Plenty to read and watch at this link.  Looks a fair and even debate, at least on this link anyway.


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## wayneL (28 September 2008)

John McCain won on style and rhetoric, but lost on substance and truth. 

He makes a great statesman, but still frightens me as president. Chuck in the MILF disaster and I'm still hoping the US goes for Obama...

...hang on! That worries me as well. 

Lesser of two evils as far as I'm concerned, maybe.

Anyone know where I can pick up a second hand spaceship?


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## noirua (28 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> John McCain won on style and rhetoric, but lost on substance and truth.
> 
> He makes a great statesman, but still frightens me as president. Chuck in the MILF disaster and I'm still hoping the US goes for Obama...
> 
> ...




I can't see anything that frightens me about Barack Obama or John McCain, both appear head screwed on people, as far as the war situation is concerned. There are always differing thoughts over Iran as to whether John McCain would be more likely to strike at Iran than Barack Obama, you pay your money and make your choice. Their views are similar on Afghanistan and troops are being redeployed from Iraq anyway.

On the economy, I'm unsure where all the money is going to come from for O'bama's welfare plans.  Will he achieve them as American growth falters.
The other side of the coin is that McCain isn't likely to spend more on welfare. Again, you pay your money and make your choice.


----------



## Doris (28 September 2008)

You gotta laugh...


NEW YORK ”” "Late Show" host David Letterman kept up a verbal assault on John McCain Thursday, saying he felt like an "ugly date" because the GOP presidential candidate backed out of a scheduled appearance on his talk show.

The comic was unhappy when McCain sat for an interview with Katie Couric instead of him Wednesday _ and *even more perturbed to learn that McCain didn't leave New York until Thursday*.

He said he felt like a "patriot" to let McCain off his commitment to deal with the economy and "now I'm feeling like an ugly date."

"That's what I feel like, I feel like an ugly date," he said. "*I feel used. I feel cheap. I feel sullied*."

Watch clip.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/25/letterman-attacks-mccain_n_129467.html

Watch clips of late night show jokes of the week:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/27/late-night-jokes-of-the-w_n_129735.html


----------



## Doris (28 September 2008)

Really... be honest.  
Do we need a world leader (until China takes over this role) who is so insulting and erratic 
- potentially turning the US into a banana republic to satisfy his pleasure in war games?



> Time and again, Mr McCain hammered his rival for his lack of experience. "*That is a little naive, come on*," he sneered at Mr Obama's reiterated readiness to meet hostile foreign leaders such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran (whose name, unfortunately, the 72-year-old Arizona Senator had difficulty in pronouncing). On every question he produced a variant on his mantra. "*Senator Obama doesn't understand*", he would say, then "*Senator Obama doesn't get it*", before uttering with a despairing roll of the eyes that "*Senator Obama still doesn't understand*."
> 
> *In fact, his opponent gave pretty much as good as he got*. Almost inevitably, the fiercest argument was over Iraq, with the Republican mocking his opponent for his doubts about the troop surge that has brought a measure of stability to the country. In reply, Mr Obama reminded him that he had opposed the war from the outset. "John, you like to pretend the war started in 2007," he hit back at one point. "The war started in 2003."
> 
> Throughout, Mr Obama was *professorial and unflustered, displaying the hallmark cool* which sometimes so irritates his critics. "The key question was whether Obama would get over the bar as a president and commander-in-chief," Norman Ornstein, a veteran political expert at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, said afterwards. "*That is the key to this election. And I believe he cleared the bar pretty easily*."




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mccain-vs-obama-all-square-944773.html


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## 2020hindsight (28 September 2008)

Another huffington article .. 

some quick comments
a) McCain came round to attending the debate - shown up to be erratic
b) He might like to argue the difference between "tactic" and "strategy"  - the point is though that he still has to learn the word "ideology"..
c) His team posted that he had won the debate (about) 6 or 12 hours before the actual debate took place, lol.   In fact ( wait for it lol) before he announced he would even attend.  
d) "Straight talk express"  :eek3::eek3:  Question is , could he lie straight in bed?. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/26/ex-adviser-mccain-blinked_n_129611.html



> After days of saying that John McCain would not attend Friday's presidential debate unless an agreement on a bailout package for the markets was "locked-down," the McCain campaign has gone back on its word.
> 
> On Friday, it announced that the Senator would head down to Mississippi even though, as they readily admit, much work remained needed on the bailout agreement.
> 
> The whole episode left even conservatives admitting that the *McCain campaign looked erratic and a bit foolish with no apparent direction or guiding principle*.






> "It just proves his campaign is *governed by tactics and not ideology," *said Republican consultant Craig Shirley, who advised McCain earlier in this cycle. "In the end, he blinked and Obama did not. The 'steady hand in a storm' argument looks now to more favor Obama, not McCain."






> Adding to the rocky perception was *a McCain campaign web ad released this morning declaring "McCain Wins Debate!" -- put out even before the candidate had announced he was planning to debate*.




comment from a poster


> Wow. If McCain keeps this up, *he'll eventually be run over by his own "Straight Talk Express" bus*. Unbelievable if it were not typical McCain style.


----------



## Doris (28 September 2008)

Bad news:


----------



## Doris (30 September 2008)

Some fun and seriousness on _Boston Legal_ tonight re the presidential election: 


*Alan Shore*: What about John McCain?

*Denny Crane*: He's Patience Zero! 

He can't remember anyone's name so he calls everyone 'my friend'.

... _he shows his laptop video with McCain saying this over and over again. (He does too!)_

Who do you want for president?


*Alan Shore*: Someone who could establish some dignity to the office - that would make a good start.

Our culture has become a dumb, fat, bubblegum nation... superficial.

Your generation made America what it is today.  It's time for it to be inherited by your children.  
I think you need to hand over the key to the car to their leader.  

I think it's time.  

I so miss a little dignity in America.


_PS. Only David E Kelly could argue the story line to legalize prostitution to 'help the troops'! (taxes on it)_


----------



## cuttlefish (30 September 2008)

Well McCain heading down to Washington to help with the bailout negotiations really demonstrated his leadership ability didn't it.   Zero.  The republicans fell apart and voted against it.  Is he going to go back and help some more?  Maybe Palin could go along and help them too - its all about healthcare reform ... and er ... jobs and stuff.


----------



## mayk (30 September 2008)

McCain, You have done it again!


----------



## Doris (4 October 2008)

In the next four weeks, what drama will replace the economy? McCain's camp has ideas:

1. Its emphasis on his biography as a war hero, experienced lawmaker and straight-talking maverick is insufficient to close a growing gap with Obama. 

2. They're also eager to *move the conversation away from the economy*, an issue that strongly favors Obama and has helped him to a lead in many recent polls.

3. "We're going to get a little tougher," a senior Republican operative said. "*We've got to question this guy's associations*. Very soon. *There's no question that we have to change the subject here*." 

Being so aggressive has risks for McCain if it angers swing voters, who often say they are looking for candidates who offer *a positive message about what they will do*.

*Moments* after the House approved the bailout package, the McCain campaign released an ad that *challenges Obama's honesty *and asks, "Who is Barack Obama?" 
The ad alleges that "Senator Obama voted 94 times for higher taxes. Ninety-four times. He's not truthful on taxes." 
This charge has been called *misleading* by independent fact-checkers, who have noted that *the majority of those votes were on nonbinding budget resolutions*. 

*Don't McCain's people check the Fact Checkers?* 
I posted this here on ASF yesterday.
... obviously Palin's debate rote was learnt and this Ad made simultaneously!
... obviously good for efficiency but not efficacy! 

They'll wait until after Tuesday's debate to decide how and when to release new commercials and continue to cast Obama as a big spender, a high taxer and someone who talks about working across the aisle but doesn't deliver.

Two other top Republicans said the new ads are likely to hammer Obama on his *connections* to convicted Chicago developer Antoin "Tony" *Rezko* and *former radical* William *Ayres*, whom the McCain campaign regularly calls a domestic terrorist because of his acts of violence against the U.S. government *in the 1960s*. 

Rev. Wright appears to be off limits after McCain *condemned* the North Carolina Republican Party in April for an ad that linked Obama to his former pastor, saying: 
"Unfortunately, all I can do is, in as visible a way as possible, *disassociate myself from that kind of campaigning*." 

"*We are looking for a very aggressive last 30 days*," said Greg Strimple, one of McCain's top advisers. 
"We are looking forward to turning a page on this financial crisis and *getting back to discussing Mr. Obama's aggressively liberal record and how he will be too risky for Americans*." 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100303738.html?hpid=topnews


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 October 2008)

Doris said:


> ..."We are looking forward to ...getting back to discussing Mr. Obama's aggressively liberal record and how he will be too risky for Americans."




or in other words - we're gonna become aggressive and more negative than normal - (because we've nothing to lose)  - but we'll try to somehow infer that Obama is the aggressive one 

yep - gloves off - hopefully counter productive.


----------



## Doris (5 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> or in other words - we're gonna become aggressive and more negative than normal - (because we've nothing to lose)  - but we'll try to somehow infer that Obama is the aggressive one
> 
> yep - gloves off - hopefully counter productive.




The 'town hall' style debate next Wednesday, our time, will be pivotal and a must-see!

Both will sit at a table and answer questions from the floor.

How do folk get to be in the questioning audience?

No doubt each campaign will plant their puppets with inflammatory topics.
I'm not sure how the volunteers are chosen but it seems logical that each would choose their trainees?


----------



## Doris (5 October 2008)

Doris said:


> The 'town hall' style debate next Wednesday, our time, will be pivotal and a must-see!
> 
> Both will sit at a table and answer questions from the floor.
> 
> How do folk get to be in the questioning audience?




Aha... voters, either present at the debate or via the Internet, may pose questions on any topic.

* moderated by Tom Brokaw, special correspondent (and former evening news anchor) for NBC News.

* questions formulated by the town hall participants and 
*neither the Commission nor the campaigns will review the questions*. 

The moderator will be solely responsible for selecting the questions that will be asked during the debate, keeping in mind the goals of addressing a wide range of topics during the debate and attempting to spend approximately equal amounts of time on foreign and domestic issues.

*The town hall participants will be comprised of uncommitted voters*:

The basic procedure is very similar to those used when Gallup conducts a normal poll. Gallup begins with a random probability sample of the area, asks people a series of questions to determine if they qualify as an uncommitted voter and then invites them to be a participant in the debate if they qualify.


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 October 2008)

Doris said:


> The 'town hall' style debate next Wednesday, our time, will be pivotal and a must-see!



Doris, your idea of a must-see (must see?) lol - 

Whilst I agree with you that it will be worth watching (sometime), gotta feeling that 2 or 3% of Aussies will see it live at best .  

Having said that, true, anyone who watches the news Wednesday night will get a few highlights flashed across the screen, with some empty meaningless comment that X or Y won  

In summary, this election was the reason video recorders were invented 

PS Rats! - we only have one video recorder, and Steve Irwin's movie "Croc Hunter" is on concurrently at noon on Wednesday - at least in Sydney.  Maybe I'll watch in on youtubes. 



> No doubt each campaign will plant their puppets with inflammatory topics.
> I'm not sure how the volunteers are chosen but it seems logical that each would choose their trainees



yep - some things never change....   and they usually paint themselves as a convert from a rusted-on supporter lol ...

Like the talkback radio here "Hello Mr Howard / Rudd,  I'm normally a Lib/Labor supporter, but the way you've been behaving on workchoice/pensions ,  I'm going to change sides this election"  etc.


----------



## ZzzzDad (5 October 2008)

Doris said:


> The 'town hall' style debate next Wednesday, our time, will be pivotal and a must-see!
> 
> Both will sit at a table and answer questions from the floor.
> 
> ...




Hey, I live in Nashville, where the next debate will be held.  I think I'll get into the audience and try to ask a question. I'm a sneaky Republican, so I'll pretend to be "uncommitted".  I'll become famous for asking the question that stumps Obama!!!!  But, I'll keep that question secret so that Doris won't send him the question in advance.  This is going to be fun!!


----------



## Green08 (6 October 2008)

*"Is John McCain a ‘Natural-Born Citizen’?*
  James Joyner | Thursday, February 28, 2008 

John McCain was born on a U.S. Navy base overseas. The NYT’s Carl Hulse has an interesting article about whether McCain is Constitutionally eligible to be president. 

Mr. McCain’s likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a “natural-born citizen” can hold the nation’s highest office.

Almost since those words were written in 1787 with scant explanation, their precise meaning has been the stuff of confusion, law school review articles, whisper campaigns and civics class debates over whether only those delivered on American soil can be truly natural born. To date, no American to take the presidential oath has had an official birthplace outside the 50 states.

The short answer is that most legal scholars presume someone who was born a citizen, regardless of location, qualifies. But the question has never been tested in court.

That it’s even an issue at this stage is silly. The Founders had a not unreasonable concern in 1789 that the fledgling nation be led by someone with unquestioned loyalty but they made a mistake enshrining that in the Constitution. Now, though, the idea that an Arnold Schwarzenegger or a Henry Kissinger or John Shalikashvili shouldn’t be eligible to run for president is absurd. "


----------



## ZzzzDad (9 October 2008)

*From the Politico - a bipartisan political site in America:*

*McCain camp making news in the morning*



> McCain camp making news in the morning
> 
> On what, they won't say.
> 
> ...



http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/McCain_camp_making_news_in_the_morning.html

Will it be a gamechanger!! or a dud?

Personally, I'm hoping they flip the ticket.

Instead of McCain/Palin

Palin/McCain!!!!!


----------



## Julia (9 October 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> *
> Personally, I'm hoping they flip the ticket.
> 
> Instead of McCain/Palin
> ...



*

Interesting comment.  It suggests that your idealistic faith in McCain might be enduring a few doubts?

During the most recent debate his quite nasty side showed when he refused to refer to Senator Obama by name but rather pointed to him and said "that one".  Very unpleasant behaviour and said quite a bit about him.

Ms Palin at least was fun, if that's what you're looking for in a VP.*


----------



## mayk (10 October 2008)

Interesting,  I tink!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E


----------



## ZzzzDad (10 October 2008)

Since 1928, Tennessee has voted for the winning Presidential candidate every time - with the exception of 1960.

We voted Hoover, FDR, FDR, FDR, FDR, Truman, Eisenhour, Eisenhour, Nixon (the exception - Kennedy won), LBJ, Nixon, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Reagan, Bush41, Clinton, Clinton, Bush43, Bush43.

The lastest Rasmussen poll in Tennessee has it McCain 58  Obama 39 

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...election_2008_tennessee_presidential_election

For what it is worth.


----------



## Doris (11 October 2008)

A lot of people have been asking how McCain can legally get away with his lies and his Hitler-style rally frenzies.

At last, the Secret Service seems to have put an end to it.

McCain's tongue must hurt being stuck in his cheek: 



> Palin has become McCain's chief attack dog against Obama, drawing thousands of people to her rallies.
> 
> As Obama took a hefty lead in the polls even in battleground states, McCain's campaign sought to refocus its fight away from the economy, with *relentless, searing attacks*.
> 
> ...




http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxHUZ-vz0qO7-XDTuwaMb3l6Pi5Q


----------



## Doris (11 October 2008)

*Only Sadness about Troopergate*

Palin violated state ethics law prohibiting public officials from using their office for private gain.

 - It's not surprising that a government official would use her power to advance a personal grudge.
 - Nor that Palin would deny that personal matters were a factor in her decision to fire Monegan.
 - Nor is it surprising, really, that Palin would refuse to cooperate with an investigation after she had said she would.
 - Nor that Palin would go around the country claiming that Obama is the one who can't be trusted. 
 . Maybe I'm too jaded to care about any of this.

*What is sad is*:
 - McCain selected this woman to run as his vice-presidential candidate
 - he built a campaign around her as it became obvious that she was unfit for the office, breying "Country First."

Give him the benefit of the doubt that when he selected her he didn't believe the Troopergate charges. 

But later he:
 - condoned her attempts at cover-up 
 - sanctioned and repeated her intimations that Obama was somehow invidiously associated with a domestic terrorist.

Sure, McCain and Palin both said (one with a wink) the issue was whether Obama was being truthful. 
But they both knew that they were *stoking flames of hatred toward Obama* and trying to brand him as traitorous.

Today, *finally*, McCain attempted to restore some of his honor by rejecting a woman's statement at a rally accusing Obama of being an "Arab"...code for terrorist. This is the John McCain I used to admire.

 * It's the McCain who rejected hatred toward Mexican immigrants, even those illegally here.
 * It's the McCain who made the mistake of lying for personal ambition in 2000 but publicly admitted it and moved on.

John McCain could have engaged in an extended, thoughtful campaign against Democrat Obama by talking about national defense, the war in Iraq, and economic turmoil.

But he didn't choose to do this.

After a long and interesting life with much service and sacrifice, John McCain's legacy *will be tainted by his willingness to allow an unworthy surrogate to suggest that an opponent is a traitor*.

http://voices.kansascity.com/node/2381


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 October 2008)

What America needs now is someone with the balls to sort out all this mess not some glorified social worker like Obama. 

McCain I predict will pull another rabbit out of the hat before polling day and get over the line.

gg


----------



## Doris (11 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What America needs now is someone with the balls to sort out all this mess not some glorified social worker like Obama.
> 
> McCain I predict will pull another rabbit out of the hat before polling day and get over the line.
> 
> gg




GG... So you obviously don't think Palin is *that one*!  

You're on the money - a social worker is the last person you'd want to have as POTUS!

Obama was and is a community organizer - not a social worker.  Remember?  

 Still - he's someone working *for* the people  - not the lobbyists and PACs. 


You're right - you'd think the guys who 'screened' Palin would have a plan B, C, D...  just in case! 



> But with 25 days to go, McCain vowed to come up from behind.
> "How many times, *my friends*, have the pundits written off the McCain campaign?" he told the cheering crowd.
> "We're gonna *fool 'em* again, *my friend*!"




  Even McCain is gettin Palin's poor enunciation skills!  As well as her Seducer ploys!

Who is he gonna fool again?  

There's no fooler like an old fool!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What America needs now is someone with the balls to sort out all this mess not some glorified social worker like Obama.
> 
> McCain I predict will pull another rabbit out of the hat before polling day and get over the line.
> 
> gg






Doris said:


> GG... So you obviously don't think Palin is *that one*!
> 
> You're on the money - a social worker is the last person you'd want to have as POTUS!
> 
> ...




Well Doris, let me go through your points one by one,

Sarah Palin, I would agree and I would be very surprised if she had anatomical testes, but she has balls, she is ballsy, and has the balls if needs be to steer that country through its present travails, deal with foreign threats, economic and domestic issues.

Obama has testes, but I don't believe he has the balls to be President.

McCain has balls and has the balls to to be a very good president.

Poor old Joe, well lets just say he probably has testes.


A community organiser to me is a glorified social worker and no amount of argument will change my mind. He was also a professor and I've lived beside a professor and they are not all that smart. 


As to Sarah Palin's accent , enunciation, it is always a source of wonder to me how the left always stigmatise folk according to their accent. I do not think how people pronounce or phrase their speech should be a subject for character assessment. 

I bet Abe Lincoln was a good ole boy when it came to droppin his dees and aitches.

Seduction can be sexual or asexual. As I've said on the Palin thread, it is a normal ploy of all politicians. barack does it to women and left men , Sarah does it to men and working class women, John does it to conservative men and women, and poor old Joe. Well ....... his dog loves him.

The agesim of the left in this debate is something I will only point out, and not comment further on.

Surprise is a military tactic, and I would not be surprised if an old soldier like JMcC did not pull a rabbit out of the hat.

So enjoy your polls, and sweat on it , it looks as if Obama will win, but I for one would not bet on it.

McCain has the balls to be President and Palin has the balls to be VP.

gg


----------



## skint (11 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What America needs now is someone with the balls to sort out all this mess not some glorified social worker like Obama.
> 
> McCain I predict will pull another rabbit out of the hat before polling day and get over the line.
> 
> gg




All due respect GG, but you also predicted Howard would come home with a wet sail against all odds and trounce Rudd. I think you may need to change the plugs and points on your crystal ball. As the bookies were indicating at the time, he didn't have a prayer and as it turned out, wasn't even capable of winning his own seat. With the bookies indicating it will be a hiding to nothing, it might be time to "follow the money", regardless of your political persuasions. Centrebet has Obama at $1.13 and McCain at $5.50. Other agencies are offering similar odds. These odds don't suggest it's in "Obama's favour on balance'. They suggest it's done and dusted. I can't recall an election at any time or any place where the bookies got it that far wrong. With Palin increasingly being exposed as thick as a brick and corrupt to boot, it's time for McCain to join Johnny at the bingo, presuming he doesn't have to use a keyboard.


----------



## skint (11 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Well Doris, let me go through your points one by one,
> 
> Sarah Palin, I would agree and I would be very surprised if she had anatomical testes, but she has balls, she is ballsy, and has the balls if needs be to steer that country through its present travails, deal with foreign threats, economic and domestic issues.
> 
> ...




Having the 'balls' or the ticker for the job is important, but let's face it, neither Obama, McCain, Palin or Biden would be in the hot seat for the top job if they lacked tenacity. Think of the leaders over the last century you hold in highest regard. They all had balls. Similarly, at the other extreme, are Hitler, Pol Pot, Mugabe and Stalin as examples of leaders who also had balls. It takes a hell of a lot more than courage to lead a country successfully.

You refer to Palin being able to deal with foreign, domestic and economic issues. Seriously, you must have seen her interviews or read the transcripts. She can't understand any of it. Even conservative commentators in the US are openly stating she is way out of her league. I think you need to develop a bit of objectivity. I'm obviously of the left, but I can at least recognise when the left throws up a galah.


----------



## Green08 (11 October 2008)

Undernews For October 6, 2008
Tuesday, 7 October 2008, 4:46 pm
Column: Undernews  


*DID MCCAIN FUDGE HIS INCOME TAX RETURN?*

Martha Miller, Huffington Post - I am a tax attorney, so a tax return means more to me than it would to most. I reviewed McCain's tax returns as a basic check on the candidates. You can look at McCain's 2006 and 2007 tax returns for yourself. The tax returns are below a lot of verbiage about his charitable activities. 

According to a New York Times article of September 27, 2008 "For McCain and Team, a Host of Ties to Gambling," reported by Jo Becker and Don VanNatta Jr., McCain gambled at the MGM Grand in May 2007. Apparently McCain is a habitual gambler; he usually plays craps. He even says, "I am a gambling man." 

Gambling has tax implications. According to IRS Publication 17, "Your Federal Income Tax", 2007 edition, page 89 "Gambling Winnings. You must include your gambling winnings in income on Form 1040, line 21. If you itemize your deductions on Schedule A (Form 1040), you can deduct gambling losses you had during the year, but only up to the amount of your winnings." In other words, you can't subtract your losses from your winnings and just not report. You have to report the winnings, and then claim the losses. 

But McCain's tax returns say nothing about gambling winnings or losses. 

As a casino gambler, McCain is likely to have lost more than he won. But by not reporting his winnings, the different percentage calculations built into the tax calculation are thrown off, and if he gambled much at all, he has underpaid his tax. The amount of understatement of tax may be minimal, but that's not the point. 

The real purpose of preparing his tax return and omitting the gambling winnings is so that people would not know how much he gambled. If he won $200,000 playing craps in Las Vegas, it would make a difference in the way voters viewed his suitability as a presidential candidate. 

There are circumstances under which the tax returns could be correct, such as McCain gambled once in 2007, not at all in 2006, and lost everything the one time he gambled. Such an explanation is unlikely in light of McCain's alleged long history of gambling.

Stephen Rose, Huffington Post - McCain is a documented craps player. He has been known to play craps on impulse for 14 hours at a stretch. . . 

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00104.htm


----------



## Julia (11 October 2008)

Skint, good to see you making an appearance on this thread at last with some valid points for GG to consider.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 October 2008)

skint said:


> Having the 'balls' or the ticker for the job is important, but let's face it, neither Obama, McCain, Palin or Biden would be in the hot seat for the top job if they lacked tenacity. Think of the leaders over the last century you hold in highest regard. They all had balls. Similarly, at the other extreme, are Hitler, Pol Pot, Mugabe and Stalin as examples of leaders who also had balls. It takes a hell of a lot more than courage to lead a country successfully.
> 
> You refer to Palin being able to deal with foreign, domestic and economic issues. Seriously, you must have seen her interviews or read the transcripts. She can't understand any of it. Even conservative commentators in the US are openly stating she is way out of her league. I think you need to develop a bit of objectivity. I'm obviously of the left, but I can at least recognise when the left throws up a galah.




Thanks Julia.

The media nowadays can slay anyone. Joe sixpack knows this. Commentators are out to sell their columns.
I'm calm about this hype.
It may work in the Republicans favour.

gg


----------



## Calliope (12 October 2008)

skint said:


> Think of the leaders over the last century you hold in highest regard. They all had balls. Similarly, at the other extreme, are Hitler, Pol Pot, Mugabe and Stalin as examples of leaders who also had balls.




An autopsy performed on Hitler's remains by the Russians confirmed what most people knew. Hitler had only one ball. I refer you to a barrack room ditty sung in England during the war to the tune of the Colonel Bogey March;

Hitler has only got one ball
Goering has two but very small
Himmler has something sim'lar
But Goebells has no balls at all.

For other variations see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Has_Only_Got_One_Ball


----------



## skint (12 October 2008)

Calliope said:


> An autopsy performed on Hitler's remains by the Russians confirmed what most people knew. Hitler had only one ball. I refer you to a barrack room ditty sung in England during the war to the tune of the Colonel Bogey March;
> 
> Hitler has only got one ball
> Goering has two but very small
> ...




LOL Now that you mention it, I do recall hearing that ditty. I believe it was also sung in Australia by those in national service. I guess we were a bit behind in the hit parades back then. Hitler also had syphilis. Perhaps a combination of the clap and not being able to fill out his jocks made him a bit tetchy.


----------



## ZzzzDad (12 October 2008)

At least the McCain supporters aren't violent:
http://www.katu.com/news/30847164.html



*Pair arrested after large McCain sign torched in Sellwood yard
*



> By Margy Lynch and KATU Web Staff
> 
> PORTLAND, Ore. - Authorities have arrested two men after a Molotov cocktail was thrown at a 4-foot by 8-foot campaign sign for Republican presidential candidate John McCain in a southeast Portland yard.
> 
> ...




*Bill Ayers' wannabes?*


----------



## skint (12 October 2008)

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Here's a graph of the US national debt since the fifties under various US presidents. The irony of course is that republican supporters seem to genuinely believe that their party is the party of restraint.

Bush has done his best to bankrupt the country and McCain was in lockstep 90% of the time. The biggest ticket items were 1)tax cuts for the wealthy, 2)Iraq and 3) deregulation of Wall St. On these McCain was 100% in lockstep. Just the sort of fella you give the keys to the cubby house to. 

The republican supporters on the various candidate's threads sensibly haven't really even attempted to defend such an appalling record. I guess they're hoping no-one will notice the 'elephant' in the room. Pun intended. If such a catastrophic debt were the price to be paid for dramtically improving the country by providing, for example, equitable access to healthcare and education (as the vast majority of the rest of the developed world enjoys), at least there would be some justifaction.

Not surpisingly, social mobility in the US, is far below most of Europe, Australia and elsewhere. If your born poor in America, your best hope is to emigrate. It seems to only take a few examples of "born poor/made good" for a significant proportion of the population to continue to swallow the myth that Americas is still the land of opportunity.


----------



## Doris (12 October 2008)

skint said:


> http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
> 
> Here's a graph of the US national debt since the fifties under various US presidents. The irony of course is that republican supporters seem to genuinely believe that their party is the party of restraint.
> 
> Bush has done his best to bankrupt the country and McCain was in lockstep 90% of the time. The biggest ticket items were 1)tax cuts for the wealthy, 2)Iraq and 3) deregulation of Wall St. On these McCain was 100% in lockstep. Just the sort of fella you give the keys to the cubby house to.




Skint - Great job!  ... Great graph!  

Many people have 'opinions' to stir others and often this is a failing of their schooling.

When they handed in their assignments - with a conclusion - without adequate research to show how they arrived at this conclusion - they were given a pass mark for handing it in!

... or they were given a fail result and did not learn from their mis-take.
... so yell down authoritative opinions without discussion.  

We all look to back up our gut feeling or our bias.
But we can all listen to others' informed decisions and learn.  

We can disagree without being disagreeable!



> "I want to acknowledge that Senator McCain tried to tone down the rhetoric yesterday in his town hall meeting and I appreciate his reminder that we can disagree while still being respectful of each other," Obama said.


----------



## 2020hindsight (12 October 2008)

interesting graph skint 
and thanks for posting the jpeg doris - I was 10 minutes behind you lol.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 October 2008)

ZzzzDad said:


> Ha Ha, former Enron advisor Paul Krugman?  A valid unbiased source?  Thanks for the laugh 2020...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/13/2390064.htm

seems he just received Nobel Prize for economics 


> US economist Paul Krugman, a critic of the Bush administration for policies that he argues led to the current financial crisis, has won the 2008 Nobel prize for economics.


----------



## noirua (14 October 2008)

Listening to US news, more is being discussed about Barack Obama being contradictory. An interviewer said he was mesmerized  by Barack Obama, and it was only because of what his wife pointed out, that he listened to the recording  again.  He was surprised how contradictory he was in this one interview, "trampled his own statements, just minutes before."


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (14 October 2008)

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgSubmiGt8

An interesting link that doesn't do much for the Democratic camp.


----------



## Doris (14 October 2008)

noirua said:


> Listening to US news, more is being discussed about Barack Obama being contradictory. An interviewer said he was mesmerized  by Barack Obama, and it was only because of what his wife pointed out, that he listened to the recording  again.  He was surprised how contradictory he was in this one interview, "trampled his own statements, just minutes before."




About what? 

Any broad statement that perpetuates a generalization and thus denigration, is mischievous. 

Free range...

Oh... as this is the McCain thread - did you identify the wrong candidate?


----------



## noirua (14 October 2008)

Doris said:


> About what?
> 
> Any broad statement that perpetuates a generalization and thus denigration, is mischievous.
> 
> ...



Don't get umbridge Doris, I'm only reporting what I saw on TV. Not my fault what they say.  Sorry to see you are offended and confused. All can be revealed at  News 24, CNN, CNBC and Bloomberg.
Good fortune on your campaigning - good luck in the run in - chow.


----------



## Doris (15 October 2008)

Doris said:


> *About what?*
> Any broad statement that *perpetuates a generalization and thus denigration*, is mischievous.
> Free range...
> Oh... as this is the McCain thread - did you identify the wrong candidate?






noirua said:


> Don't get umbridge Doris, I'm only reporting what I saw on TV. Not my fault what they say.  Sorry to see you are offended and confused. All can be revealed at  News 24, CNN, CNBC and Bloomberg.
> Good fortune on your campaigning - good luck in the run in - chow.




Confused but I don't offend easily.  Just thought you should give more than innuendo!
*You did not 'report'!*  - you insinuated!
Read my post.  You did not give information/details on what he backtracked on.  Innuendo is McCain's style.

It will be interesting to hear McCain's new economy saving plan today when he teleconferences with media.

He lured the press to a 'town hall style' meeting at Cape Fear yesterday, but infuriated them when he regurgitated a stump speech and did not have the promised Q & A session.


----------



## noirua (15 October 2008)

McCain offers economic proposals (video):  http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=92220&newsChannel=topnews


----------



## Bushman (15 October 2008)

Surpised none of you avid media watchers on this thread did not pick this up. Matthew Dowd venting his spleen at the gimmick of picking Sarah Palin. Is the intelligensia of the Republican Party turning against the 'maverick 'silver fox'. T'was not the time for gimmicks Macca! 

Sleepy - picked up the storyfrom Marketwatch which is a Wall Street Journal affiliate. Not sure about the background of the Huffington Post? Is it left or right? 

"They didn't let John McCain pick the person he wanted to pick as VP," Dowd declared during the Time Warner Summit panel. "When Sarah Palin got picked instead of Joe Lieberman, which I fundamentally believed would have given John McCain the best opportunity in this race... as soon as he picked Palin, that whole ready versus not ready argument was not credible."

Saying that Palin was a "net negative" on the ticket, he went on: "[McCain] knows, in his gut, that he put somebody unqualified on the ballot. He knows that in his gut, and when this race is over that is something he will have to live with... He put somebody unqualified on that ballot and he put the country at risk, he knows that."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/14/bush-strategist-mccain-kn_n_134570.html


----------



## noirua (15 October 2008)

Tonights debate may well be a turning point for John McCain.

 Fair enough, me thinks, Doris, Julia and 2020 may not like to see a women in the Vice-Presidential position, who knows. We saw how they hammered another lady, on their own team as well.

Barack Obama, King of contradictions, might well contradict once, twice or thrice tonight in the States. Could lead to a downward spiral for the next three weeks.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

noirua said:


> Tonights debate may well be a turning point for John McCain.
> 
> Fair enough, me thinks, Doris, Julia and 2020 may not like to see a women in the Vice-Presidential position, who knows. We saw how they hammered another lady, on their own team as well.
> 
> Barack Obama, King of contradictions, might well contradict once, twice or thrice tonight in the States. Could lead to a downward spiral for the next three weeks.




Yes I agree noirua, this debate will be interesting. Obama has been performing well recently and the press have failed to pick up on McCain's vision for the US post Bush. So, it will be a good debate, and may the best man win.

No doubt 2020 and the Terrible Two will youtube us to oblivion for the next 20 pages on this thread. 

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 October 2008)

noirua said:


> Doris, Julia and 2020 may not like to see a women in the Vice-Presidential position, who knows. We saw how they hammered another lady, on their own team as well.




You seriously think that was the concern with Hillary noi. (?)  so - the hero of Bosnia maintains cred in your eyes ?  

  CBS Exposes Hillary Clinton Bosnia Trip.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Yes I agree noirua, this debate will be interesting. Obama has been performing well recently and the press have failed to pick up on McCain's vision for the US post Bush. So, it will be a good debate, and may the best man win.




May the best man win indeed. 



> No doubt 2020 and the Terrible Two will youtube us to oblivion for the next 20 pages on this thread.




gg, some funny stuff in those youtubes - you'll be able to go back and see what we were talking about when you finally get broadband


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> You seriously think that was the concern with Hillary noi. (?)  so - the hero of Bosnia maintains cred in your eyes ?
> 
> CBS Exposes Hillary Clinton Bosnia Trip.
> 
> ...






lol 2020.

what beer do you prefer, its not looking good for my lad and lassie?

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> lol 2020.
> 
> what beer do you prefer, its not looking good for my lad and lassie?
> 
> gg



gg
I'd better not count those chickens b4 they hatch lol
(Like the moral of Aunty Sharon - here it is again in case you've forgotten)    :-

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=232424


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> gg
> I'd better not count those chickens b4 they hatch lol
> (Like the moral of Aunty Sharon - here it is again in case you've forgotten)    :-
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=232424




Good one lol.

Seriously though what factors might work in McCains favour to snatch victory from apparent looming defeat.

I think racism might affect the result, latinos and poor whites may vote McCain, at the same time as they tell the pollsters they are voting for Obama.

I also think that many Obama voters may decide that their guy is so far ahead that there is no need to vote.

and no bloody youtubes , I want your opinion not some hairy legged feminist from public TV in Kallerforneea.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ...at the same time as they tell the pollsters they are voting for Obama.



true , I don't necessarily trust polls.  ..
(but the bookies I probably trust more)


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> true , I don't necessarily trust polls.  ..
> (but the bookies I probably trust more)




Jeez you are hard on me.

Never bet against the book or a trend.

Blades out again.

When is your next basket weaving class?

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 October 2008)

would have thought that McCain is the basket case here


----------



## Julia (15 October 2008)

noirua said:


> T
> Fair enough, me thinks, Doris, Julia and 2020 may not like to see a women in the Vice-Presidential position, who knows. We saw how they hammered another lady, on their own team as well.




Noirua, I thought you had more sense than to say something so utterly silly.
I would dearly love to see a woman in the VP or President's position* if that woman displayed the appropriate qualities and experience*.

In the early days of the primaries, I hoped Hillary would get the nomination.
But then she displayed her tenuous relationship with the truth in describing her arrival under fire in Bosnia (or somewhere in that part of the world) which was a complete fabrication.  So, strike Hillary out.

I don't care one bit what gender either the President or the Vice President is.
Simply has nothing to do with it.   My objection to Ms Palin is for many other reasons which I have previously made clear.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

Julia said:


> Noirua, I thought you had more sense than to say something so utterly silly.
> I would dearly love to see a woman in the VP or President's position* if that woman displayed the appropriate qualities and experience*.
> 
> In the early days of the primaries, I hoped Hillary would get the nomination.
> ...




Julia I have yet to see women from the educated classes embrace any women who run for a conservative party. Its odd. It seems as if only left wing women are acceptable to the 'doctors wives" for want of a better expression. I hope you are not a doctor's wife and if you are I apologise, and no offence meant if you are.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> would have thought that McCain is the basket case here




lol  very witty.

gg


----------



## Doris (16 October 2008)

Bushman said:


> Surpised none of you avid media watchers on this thread did not pick this up. Matthew Dowd venting his spleen at the gimmick of picking Sarah Palin. Is the intelligensia of the Republican Party turning against the 'maverick 'silver fox'. T'was not the time for gimmicks Macca!
> 
> "They didn't let John McCain pick the person he wanted to pick as VP," Dowd declared during the Time Warner Summit panel. "When Sarah Palin got picked instead of Joe Lieberman, which I fundamentally believed would have given John McCain the best opportunity in this race... as soon as he picked Palin, that whole ready versus not ready argument was not credible."
> 
> ...




Obama's basic premise has been to remove lobbyists and PACs from owning politicians. 

Most leaders do not achieve their purported policies because of the strings on their puppetry.

Obama chose his running mate for sound, intelligent reasons. 
Bushman, your poignant point is that McCain did not!


----------



## Knobby22 (16 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Julia I have yet to see women from the educated classes embrace any women who run for a conservative party. Its odd. It seems as if only left wing women are acceptable to the 'doctors wives" for want of a better expression. I hope you are not a doctor's wife and if you are I apologise, and no offence meant if you are.
> 
> gg




Oh come on! 
What about Maggie Thatcher??

What you should say is that women from the educated classes would have trouble embracing an uneducated bozo from the backwoods like Sarah Palin.


----------



## Aussiejeff (16 October 2008)

I'm totally ignorant.

Does this McCain person own the potato chip franchise? I like his chips!


----------



## Green08 (16 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It seems as if only left wing women are acceptable to the 'doctors wives" for want of a better expression. I hope you are not a doctor's wife and if you are I apologise, and no offence meant if you are.gg




Doctor's are women too, some are in Gay relationships with women and relationships with men.  Where BOTH can be Doctors.

I doubt you know what a doctor's wife / partner does in real life.  You deserve the highest award for pathetic sterotyping.  The hours and pressure on Doctors to perform at their highest level is help by a nuturing partner.



> Longest procedure that I have been in myself - 3-finger digit re-attachment. I was working the over-night when the clock turned bach an hour - so nine and one-half hours. If I had to pee, I excused myself for a couple of minutes (no one to relieve me). Most of the procedure was tedious work under the microscope






> ANDREW DENTON: No. What’s the longest operation you’ve ever had?
> 
> DR CHARLIE TEO: Ah 26 hours.
> 
> ...




_Deadly Disease Number 1: Heart Disease_
Inflammation of the artery is "oxidized" LDL cholesterol, homocysteine, along with excessive free radicals caused by hypertension, diabetes, *cigarette smoking, fatty meals*, and elevated insulin levels. 

_Deadly Disease Number 2: Cancer _prostate cancer - now that is nasty!  the Dr will have to put his well gloved finger up your anus to check on the gland.

_Deadly Disease Number 3: Stroke_
Stroke occurs suddenly and usually without warning. elevated homocysteine, a by-product of protein metabolism that is elevated in individuals who have low levels of folic acid and vitamins B6 and B12.

_Deadly Disease Number 4: Diabetes_
The overwhelming new cases of diabetes in the world today are the result of insulin resistance. 

_Deadly Disease Number 5: Alzheimer's_Alzheimer's dementia has been shown to be caused by oxidative stress. Development of these neurodegenerative diseases is by taking highly potent nutritional supplements. 

_Deadly Disease Number 6: Obesity_
One of the main causes of obesity is insulin resistance. Eating foods which spike your blood sugar, lack of exercise, and lack nutritional supplements all promote insulin sensitivity. 


_Deadly Disease Number 7: Unprotected Sex_
Viral infections pass from one person to another by skin-to-skin contact during intercourse. The virus lives on the skin of the vagina, penis, and anus.

Herpes, hepatitis, genital warts, and AIDS are cause by viruses. 

Some Viral sexually transmitted diseases {AIDS, hepatitis B and C, human papilloma virus (HPV)} are link to cancer, making them fatal sexually transmitted diseases if left untreated.

Should a Doctor have to save your life he has taken an oath developed by Hippocrates (460-377 BC), a Greek physician, is traditionally acknowledged as the “Father of Medicine”. The Hippocratic Oath was formulated in the 4th century BC, at the time when Hippocrates was establishing medicine.  It has been up dated but they recite the oath.

Now before the Doctor attempts to save your life - tell him of your belief in "Doctor's Wives"  the poor Doctor will probably want to let you die as you have proved to be an ethical challenge. 



> Modern Text used in many Medical Schools
> 
> I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
> 
> ...




I hope your death is fast so you don't waste the unique talent and commitment of Doctors and their committed partners.


----------



## Doris (16 October 2008)

*Heated third debate between McCain, Obama*

CBS poll: 53 % of viewers believed Obama to be the winner, compared to just 22 % for McCain.

The one who stays calm is the winner in any conflict as his opposition's adrenaline surges and cuts off non-essential activities... like thinking.  Fight or Flight? I really thought McCain's suppressed anger cut off the blood supply to his pre-frontal lobes and his reptilian brain took over, when he uttered outlandish drivel and Obama laughed.  He'd retrace to memory and regurgitate - doing what he and Palin do best - avoid the question - vomit out what is stump rote. 



> "Mr. Ayers is not involved in my campaign. He has never been involved in this campaign," Obama said.
> 
> "You launched your political campaign in Mr. Ayers' living room," McCain responded.
> 
> "That is absolutely not true," Obama retorted.




McCain's 'advertised' attempt to separate his image from GWB didn't work. 



> "Sen. Obama, I am not President Bush," McCain said curtly at one point during a lively exchange on economic policies. "If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago."
> 
> Obama's response: "If I've occasionally mistaken your policies for George Bush's policies, it's because on the core economic issues that matter to the American people - on tax policy, on energy policy, on spending priorities - you have been a vigorous supporter of President Bush."




Calm, in control... a smile... disarming the erratic.
I had to smile when Barack nodded happily when accused by the moderator of labels he'd used on McCain.
He seemed pleased that the viewers were being reminded of them!  
McCain put on his choir boy face and *denied having been negative* in his campaign!  
 Someone find his memory for him!



> Obama calmly deflected McCain's jabs, saying, "The fact that this has become such an important part of your campaign, Sen. McCain, says more about your campaign than it says about me."
> 
> Obama never appeared to be knocked off stride, often smiled during McCain's attacks and *spoke directly to the camera*.
> 
> The Republican, often on the offense and on the attack, tended to speak to Schieffer.



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/15/MN9B13HN21.DTL&type=politics


----------



## Doris (16 October 2008)

I wonder if anyone noticed that McCain spent 30 seconds of his five minutes in saying why Palin was a good choice.

The rest of this time was spent trying to show fault with Biden as Obama's choice! Refuted by media already!

Obama ended his five minutes of details with his confidence of Biden being a good president if needed.

I really waited for McCain to say something similar about Palin.  But he didn't dare go there!  Why?


----------



## Doris (16 October 2008)

The mud McCain's been throwing hasn't been sticking, making McCain look grubby. 

Fact checking on the debate today:

* 1. McCAIN*: said that 100 percent of his ads weren't negative. 

*THE FACTS*: University of Wisconsin Advertising Project: *100 % of McCain's ads have been negative.*
McCain is only running 11,471 positive ads compared to nearly 60,000 negative ads. 
Comparatively, Obama is running 48,729 positive ads and more than 80,000 negative ads.


* 2. McCAIN*: "We have to stop sending $*700 billion a year* to countries that don't like us very much."

*THE FACTS*: This U.S. spending on oil imports figure is highly inflated and misleading. 
The US spent $*246 billion* in 2007 for all imported crude oil, a majority from friendly nations including Canada and Mexico.  $*82 billion* was spent importing refined petroleum products eg gasoline, diesel and fuel oil. A majority from refineries in friendly countries - the Netherlands, Canada, the United Kingdom, Trinidad-Tobago, the Virgin Islands.


* 3. McCAIN*: Said that Obama is opposed to off-shore drilling. 

*THE FACTS*: Obama said in August he would be willing to open Florida's coast for more oil drilling if it meant winning approval for broad energy changes...  carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage.
*McCain once opposed offshore drilling, too*.


* 4. McCAIN*: "We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 nuclear power plants right away."

*THE FACTS*: This would require a massive shift to electric or hybrid-electric cars, with nuclear power providing the electricity. 15 utilities have filed applications to build 24 new reactors, but none is expected to be built before 2015 at the earliest. Turmoil in the credit markets could force cancellation of some of the projects now planned, much less spur construction of 45 new reactors, as reactor costs have soared to about *$9 billion apiece*.


* 5. McCAIN*: "Now, we have allocated $750 billion. Let's take 300 of that and go in and buy those home loan mortgages and negotiate with those people in their homes, 11 million homes or more, so that they can afford to pay the mortgage, stay in their home."

*THE FACTS*: Experts are skeptical and say the plan McCain is promoting is unlikely to solve the housing crisis that's pushing the economy toward recession. The vast majority of the toxic home loans have been repackaged into complex investments that the government would be hard-pressed to unravel and buy. And the government could end up paying far more than they would ever be worth. That could primarily help banks and lenders with taxpayer money.


* 6. McCAIN*: Sen. Joe Biden: "He had this cockamamie idea of dividing Iraq into three countries."

*THE FACTS*: Biden actually proposed dividing Iraq into three semiautonomous regions, not separate countries. 
He was a prime sponsor of a nonbinding Senate resolution that called for Iraq to have federal regions under the control of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis in a power-sharing agreement similar to the one that ended the 1990s war in Bosnia.
(The Associated Press)

The source of McCain's Joe The Plumber:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27208022#27208022


----------



## Julia (16 October 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> Oh come on!
> What about Maggie Thatcher??
> 
> What you should say is that women from the educated classes would have trouble embracing an uneducated bozo from the backwoods like Sarah Palin.



Exactly.   This reinforces my remarks above where I said I'd love to see a capable woman in charge, either in the US or here for that matter.   Sarah Palin, sadly, does not fit this description.

GG, I'm laughing at your comment because - curiously enough - I was in fact a doctor's wife!   But I acknowledge that it's a common expression meant to represent reasonably affluent, educated, intelligent women, rather than specifically women who are actually married to doctors.  The expression could equally have been "lawyers' wives".

So, Green, I don't think you need to worry that GG was having a go at doctors.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Julia I have yet to see women from the educated classes embrace any women who run for a conservative party. Its odd. It seems as if only left wing women are acceptable to the 'doctors wives" for want of a better expression. I hope you are not a doctor's wife and if you are I apologise, and no offence meant if you are.
> 
> gg






Julia said:


> Exactly.   This reinforces my remarks above where I said I'd love to see a capable woman in charge, either in the US or here for that matter.   Sarah Palin, sadly, does not fit this description.
> 
> GG, I'm laughing at your comment because - curiously enough - I was in fact a doctor's wife!   But I acknowledge that it's a common expression meant to represent reasonably affluent, educated, intelligent women, rather than specifically women who are actually married to doctors.  The expression could equally have been "lawyers' wives".
> 
> So, Green, I don't think you need to worry that GG was having a go at doctors.




Thanks Julia,

Green08 is either not Australian or woeful uninformed if he/she, (actually a linguist girlfriend of mine reckons she's a he, though probably Austraian) is not aware of the pejorative expression "doctors wives".

I do find though that educated often barren women are frightened by the matriarchal power of fertile ones, and the left women have a distinct distaste of right women.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Green08 is either not Australian or woeful uninformed if he/she, (actually a linguist girlfriend of mine reckons she's a he, though probably Austraian)...




gg - and therefore I reckon your linguist friend is probably really a bloke lol - 
 or alternatively

you and/or she haven't read the posts green made about her autistic son.   

as for the rest ....  for chryssake please don't be so rude to women posters . thank yu.  2020


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 October 2008)

Just to change direction here from gg's insults...

I hear that the Republicans are considering a late change in the ticket.  ..


----------



## noirua (17 October 2008)

John McCain's performance did seem to put the blue collar workers importance to the forefront. If little else this may show a gradual support in the coming weeks.


----------



## Doris (17 October 2008)

noirua said:


> John McCain's performance did seem to put the blue collar workers importance to the forefront. If little else this may show a gradual support in the coming weeks.




Just in case details matter...

Joe Plumber expected to earn $250-280k next year and he wondered how Obama's tax plan affected him. Only the amount over $250k would incur more tax but this could be offset by 50% rebate on health benefits paid to workers, capital gains tax credit for small business...

McCain was not giving anything for Joe Plumber.  He spouted innuendo - would blue-collars check his plans?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 October 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> gg - and therefore I reckon your linguist friend is probably really a bloke lol -
> or alternatively
> 
> you and/or she haven't read the posts green made about her autistic son.
> ...




2020 I apologise if I've hurt you or anyone else on the forum with my comments.

godbothering and politics always gets folk worked up.

so again, apologies.

gg

ps how do you know they are women posters.

gg

and is it ok to be rude to men posters.

gg

and how do you know they are men.

gg


----------



## Julia (17 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I do find though that educated often barren women are frightened by the matriarchal power of fertile ones, and the left women have a distinct distaste of right women.
> 
> gg



What utter bloody rubbish!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 October 2008)

Julia said:


> What utter bloody rubbish!




but Julia, that is why some godbothered Islamist mother is more powerful than a Western female intellectual who has no issue, but papers galore on some vague site.

populate or perish , educate or immolate, are the issues facing the vast majority of poor women worldwide forgotten by the feminists.

Sarah Palin would sort it out.

move with the times

gg


----------



## skint (17 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> 2020 I apologise if I've hurt you or anyone else on the forum with my comments.
> 
> godbothering and politics always gets folk worked up.
> 
> ...




Hi GG,
I'm a little confused. Perhaps you could enlighten me. We share a similar disdain for religious extremism and the godbothering fraternity who deem it appropriate to force their views on anyone they can. I pointed out that the Republicans had harnessed these people as their own in the US and that they formed a significant part of their support base. You responded by posting that to attract votes from whatever source was acceptable if it were for the greater good, or words to that effect. Fair enough. More recently, as a card carrying member of the Palin brigade, you seem to have taken a quantum leap into believing that an evangelical religious extremist (ie.ram it down anyone's throat you can) , is a really good person to have their finger on the big N button, no doubt 'with God on her side'. This is also a person that believes that twirling in circles and speaking in tongues is a useful avenue to personal development, and who also believes dinasours were running around the place a few thousand years ago. So, in your opinion, do you go for the religious extremist or the leftie?

Just as a foot note, you also posted that this is a stocks forum, and berated someone (Green, by memory) for not posting beyond the political threads. For some time I've also posted diddley squat on various stocks. I pulled the vast majority of my money out August/07 and have been waiting on the sidelines. In hindsight, a good decision, even though I missed the late 07 rally. Perhaps there are a few like minded souls, and these threads aid in whiling away the empty hours before re-entering. I expect that to change shortly, but hopefully I'll never grow tired of pub politics.

Skint


----------



## derty (18 October 2008)

John Stewart, he is a funny man. Here is his take on John McCain's new new stump speech. It got a giggle out of me - enjoy. 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=188475&title=mccains-brand-new-stump-speech


----------



## metric (18 October 2008)

McCain is a cretin.....yesterday he called the JFK assasination an 'intervention'.......!!!!!!

an intervention by whom...? seems john knows. he ought to have the truth tortured out of him by some vietnamese victims of his bombing raids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBAsHTSbkXs&eurl=http://whatreallyhappened.com/


.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 October 2008)

skint said:


> Hi GG,
> I'm a little confused. Perhaps you could enlighten me. We share a similar disdain for religious extremism and the godbothering fraternity who deem it appropriate to force their views on anyone they can. I pointed out that the Republicans had harnessed these people as their own in the US and that they formed a significant part of their support base. You responded by posting that to attract votes from whatever source was acceptable if it were for the greater good, or words to that effect. Fair enough. More recently, as a card carrying member of the Palin brigade, you seem to have taken a quantum leap into believing that an evangelical religious extremist (ie.ram it down anyone's throat you can) , is a really good person to have their finger on the big N button, no doubt 'with God on her side'. This is also a person that believes that twirling in circles and speaking in tongues is a useful avenue to personal development, and who also believes dinasours were running around the place a few thousand years ago. So, in your opinion, do you go for the religious extremist or the leftie?
> 
> Just as a foot note, you also posted that this is a stocks forum, and berated someone (Green, by memory) for not posting beyond the political threads. For some time I've also posted diddley squat on various stocks. I pulled the vast majority of my money out August/07 and have been waiting on the sidelines. In hindsight, a good decision, even though I missed the late 07 rally. Perhaps there are a few like minded souls, and these threads aid in whiling away the empty hours before re-entering. I expect that to change shortly, but hopefully I'll never grow tired of pub politics.
> ...




Fair comments skint, but there are some folk on these threads who seem to be obsessed with one thing, left wing politics. They don't post on any stocks and for the life of me I don't know why they come to a forum called Aussie Stock Forums to vent their anticapitalist spleen.

By the way , its your shout, and they are pots in Queensland, mines a VB.


gg


----------



## IFocus (18 October 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Fair comments skint, but there are some folk on these threads who seem to be obsessed with one thing, left wing politics.




You for got tree hugging, whale saving...........Commo's





> They don't post on any stocks and for the life of me I don't know why they come to a forum called Aussie Stock Forums to vent their anticapitalist spleen.





Just getting ready for the revolution





> By the way , its your shout, and they are pots in Queensland, mines a VB.





Full strength beer now there is common ground


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 October 2008)

gee that Keating stuff gets messy 
John McCain / Cindy McCain / James Hensley etc 

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story22.htm



> "McCain, in a radio talk-show appearance last week condemned disclosures of his family's ties to Keating as "irresponsible journalism." The Arizona Republic - October 17, 1989
> 
> " . . . both in telephone conversations with reporters and on a live radio talk show, the Republican senator was far from calm. He was agitated. Angry. And the way he dealt with unpleasant questions was to bully the questioners . . . 'You're a liar,' McCain snapped Sept. 29 when an Arizona Republic reporter asked him about business ties between his wife, Cindy McCain, and Keating . . . 'That's the spouse's involvement, you idiot,' McCain sneered later in the same conversation. 'You do understand English, don't you?' ". . . Not content with just bullying reporters, McCain tried belittling them: 'It's up to you to find that out, kids.' . . . McCain wasn't talking to liars. He wasn't talking to juveniles. The senator was talking to two reporters." The Arizona Republic - October 17, 1989
> 
> ...



etc


----------



## Green08 (20 October 2008)

Donald Trump On President George W. Bush


http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=KdxFn8FfauU&feature=related

Here is trump saying Iraq is a disaster get out  mmmmm then why as he endorsed McCain?


----------



## noirua (22 October 2008)

http://edition.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/situation.room/

"Situation Room" with John McCain - 6pm US ET.


----------



## mayk (23 October 2008)

Now here is a thought



> For months, Obama has been running a campaign arguing that a McCain presidency would just be a continuation of the failed policies of the Bush administration. Now that sounds pretty bad, but what if it's actually worse than that? It's nearly impossible to imagine, I agree. How could we sink any lower than where we are right now? Well, things could always be worse, and simply by looking at the facts it's clear that there's a great possibility that our current commander in chief, our CEO president, the now infamous George W. Bush, is actually more intelligent than John McCain. Let's look at the facts:





http://www.huffingtonpost.com/toby-barlow/is-bush-actually-smarter_b_137082.html


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## noirua (23 October 2008)

America probably needs an administration that is able to stand back more as the dollar recovers and sends commodity prices down.
Not the time to start spending, just an occasional tinker with the steering and softly on the accelerator.
John McCain seems the more likely candidate to do this.


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## noirua (27 October 2008)

John McCain may be seriously hoping that most voters will hesitate on election day and just not quite make it for Obama .


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## Knobby22 (27 October 2008)

noirua said:


> America probably needs an administration that is able to stand back more as the dollar recovers and sends commodity prices down.
> Not the time to start spending, just an occasional tinker with the steering and softly on the accelerator.
> John McCain seems the more likely candidate to do this.




Agree with you noiru. John McCain would sit on his hands just like the Republicans did in the depression. 

Didn't work then, won't work now.


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## sam76 (27 October 2008)

John's brother calls 911 to complain about traffic jams on a bridge!

He has now quit his brother's campaign

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y6_s3O5Bj0

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h_9brEfdoA0&feature=related


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## 2020hindsight (27 October 2008)

sam76 said:


> John's brother calls 911 to complain about traffic jams on a bridge!



Hey Joe baby - think of it this way - like we do in Aus, 
 you see..
being in traffic is like being in love Joe,  
yeah you heard me right Joe
.. if you think you're in.. "click"


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## noirua (28 October 2008)

sam76 said:


> John's brother calls 911 to complain about traffic jams on a bridge!
> 
> He has now quit his brother's campaign
> 
> ...




We none of us can be responsible for relatives. Wasn't it President Bill Clinton's brother who caused him plenty of embarrassment, he just lived with it, not his problem really.


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## 2020hindsight (28 October 2008)

noirua said:


> We none of us can be responsible for relatives. Wasn't it President Bill Clinton's brother who caused him plenty of embarrassment, he just lived with it, not his problem really.




:topic Even Johnny Howard's brother Stan  - except that Stan's company seemed to get different treatment compared to the average company -  a $6million "taxpayer funded bailout" as the editorial in the Australian called it at the time (2000) 
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s98866.htm
PM Archive - Thursday, 10 February 2000



> FIONA REYNOLDS: It was the Prime Minister who proudly announced that the cash-strapped National Textiles' workers would receive their full entitlements. It was the Prime Minister who said they would be the first to recover wages, leave and a redundancy payout under a new National scheme and it was the Prime Minister who urged the creditors to accept a Deed of Arrangement so that the $6 million in State and Federal funds would flow.
> 
> *Today the Australian newspaper claimed that acceptance of the scheme would prevent an inquiry into National Textiles' management and Directors, of which Mr Howard's brother, Stan, is one. The editorial was scathing, raising questions about the government's probity and calling the taxpayer funded bail-out improper, and policy on the run*.
> 
> UNIDENTIFIED: It would be a poor use of $6 million in public funds even if the Prime Minister's brother were not involved, but he is involved and this must raise *the issue of favouritism, if not corruption*, despite Mr Howard's deserved reputation as a decent and honest man.  etc


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## greggles (26 August 2018)

Senator John McCain died today (yesterday US time) of brain cancer at his home in Arizona. 

A tireless advocate for the United States, Western democratic values, and a good friend of Australia.

Vale Senator McCain.

John McCain and the End of Romantic Conservatism


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## SirRumpole (26 August 2018)

A sad loss to the world.


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## basilio (27 August 2018)

Very sad loss. One of the very few Republicians with the intelligence to understand the infamy of Donald Trump and the guts to speak up about it.

And in other breaking news, just to emphasise the tone of the Trump supporters, check out this story. Couldn't make it up.

*Senate candidate Kelli Ward suggests McCain timed pre-death announcement to hurt her campaign*
Kelli Ward, a U.S. Senate hopeful and onetime rival of Sen. John McCain, is facing a torrent of criticism after she appeared to suggest that his announcement Friday to halt medical treatment for his brain cancer was timed to hurt her campaign. McCain, 81, died a day after his announcement.
One of Ward’s staffers on Saturday wrote a Facebook post wondering whether the timing of the statement from McCain’s family, made on the same day that Ward’s statewide bus tour kicked off, was simply a coincidence or a tactic “to take media attention off her campaign.”

Ward did not dispute the notion and said in reply: “I think they wanted to have a particular narrative that they hope is negative to me."

McCain died just hours after Ward’s Facebook comments.

Ward, who is seeking the GOP nomination to replace U.S. Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), has made controversial comments about McCain in the past. A far-right candidate, she shares President Trump’s hard-line policies on immigration and border security and has promised, as the president did, to “drain the swamp.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ent-hurt-her-campaign/?utm_term=.cfa22b6d425e


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## Tisme (27 August 2018)

basilio said:


> A far-right candidate, she shares President Trump’s hard-line policies on immigration and border security and has promised, as the president did, to “drain the swamp.”




I bet she also shares a lot in common with most people .... head, shoulders, arms etc.

Very tacky of her to  suggest the motivation for McCain's decision is all about her....miserable attitude and hope she gets caned at the polls.


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## luutzu (27 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Very sad loss. One of the very few Republicians with the intelligence to understand the infamy of Donald Trump and the guts to speak up about it.
> 
> And in other breaking news, just to emphasise the tone of the Trump supporters, check out this story. Couldn't make it up.
> 
> ...




Wow. They actually believe that? Shite.


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## luutzu (28 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A sad loss to the world.




With all due respect to McCain and his family, why the world though?

Some alternative facts...


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## Knobby22 (28 August 2018)

He may not have been divisive but he was too pro-war.
Sure he thought Trump is a fool as do I but that doesn't suddenly make him a legend.


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