# Australian Job Losses



## MR. (18 November 2008)

Not nice at all to lose ones job.  Job losses, hopefully minimal, will be the defining factor to alot of this talk on recession etc.  It will be the undoing of the property market here in Australia. Our higher interest rates compared to other countries is our biggest advantage.

The unemployment rate is currently 4.3%
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0


Quotes: 14/11/08
-  A well-placed source who is aware of ANZ's plans said it would axe 3000-3500 staff and contractors — 10% of its workforce.

-  Qantas said it would slash up to 1500 jobs and Ford has said it would cut 800 jobs.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/anz-tipped-to-make-heavy-job-cuts-20081113-66a2.html


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## doctorj (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*

A lot of friends in professional services in Perth are being forced to take 3 weeks leave over xmas (unpaid if they don't have the leave balance).  I've also started hearing stories of lay-offs in professional services in Sydney.

I also hear that BHP/RIO are deferring some projects on the expectation of lower commodity prices.  Not good news for engineers either.

I think it'll really bite the Aus economy when the iron ore contracts are next renegotiated.  Check out the difference between the contract and spot prices....


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## prawn_86 (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*

Citibank shedding 50000 staqff globally and Mac Bank hinting that they will reduce numbers (or grad employement will dry up at least).

Damn this economy! Masters here I come...


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## MrBurns (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*



prawn_86 said:


> Citibank shedding 50000 staqff globally and Mac Bank hinting that they will reduce numbers (or grad employement will dry up at least).
> 
> Damn this economy! Masters here I come...




I think we're heading for 9% or 1,000,000 unemployed by the end of next year.

I got to say I feel like turning this machine off and running out into the sunshine, 
I'm just about global financial crises'd out.


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## Nyden (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*



prawn_86 said:


> Damn this economy! Masters here I come...




There is an upside here Prawn, hopefully by the time your education is complete - house prices will be much more affordable


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## Real1ty (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*



MrBurns said:


> I think we're heading for 9% or 1,000,000 unemployed by the end of next year.
> .




How did you come up with that figure?


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## MrBurns (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*



Real1ty said:


> How did you come up with that figure?




JP Morgan, there was someone else too but I cant find it, makes sence to me the way people are being layed off at present.



> AUSTRALIA'S jobless rate will more than double between now and 2010, when over one million people are expected to be out of work, as the global economic slowdown weighs on China, a leading international bank says.
> JPMorgan Australia's chief economist Stephen Walters said a slowdown in China's economic growth will be detrimental to the creation of jobs in Australia in the next two years.
> 
> "We now expect the jobless rate to more than double to 9 per cent in late 2010, from the current 4.3 per cent,'' Mr Walters said.




Just in - Babcock & Brown to sack 850 staff: report 

and so on and on and on...........................


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## gfresh (19 November 2008)

Heard a lot of companies have labor freezes on presently. Not laying off people yet, however not employing anybody new either. Probably waiting to see how things pan out next few months. 

10.7M workers currently employed, currently 478k unemployed @ 4.3%. Double the unemployment rate to 8.6%, and you'd soon have ~956k unemployed. Around 9% you're heading into 1M unemployed.  

JP Morgan has predicted 9%, and still standing behind their figures last I read - http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24609435-601,00.html

Not impossible, it wasn't that long ago we had above 10% unemployment. 15 years ago, no great depression going on - just harder times.


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## arco (19 November 2008)

.

*September 1994* was the last time the nation's *jobless rate *started with a nine, when it registered *9.1%.*

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2008/10/22/12437a31eb97


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## MrBurns (19 November 2008)

Lets face it we're at the top of the biggest bubble in *EVERYTHING* that anyones ever seen, falling from a very tall tree will hurt badly no matter what.

Shares were first, off 47% so far from the peak, next property all made worse by job losses, it snowballs, falling production, falling profits, falling employment, falling shares, falling house prices and away we go.......


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## prawn_86 (19 November 2008)

Its not neccesarily a bad thing, i just wish the govs would stop intervening and let it happen. The longer they try and hold it up for the harder it will crash/burst/pop etc

Someone in another thread used a very apt metaphor of a fire in a forest and then the forest re-growing again after it.


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## MR. (19 November 2008)

The actual unemployment was higher back in the early 90's.

The government intoduced the "Mature Age Allowance" 

One could not retire until 65 years and alot of unemployed were 60 - 65 yrs.  So all these 60 - 65 year olds on the unemployment list were transferred to the "Mature Age Allowance"  

It made the unemployment figures better at the time.  Giving perhaps people a little more confidence.  And confidence is/was needed.


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## gfresh (19 November 2008)

Here is quick flashback to late 1993..

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/auss...5CCB44DFCA257225000736B3/$File/62020_1293.pdf

Page 8 makes an interesting read for that time, and shows 1992 figures as well (11.1%)


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## Moneybags (19 November 2008)

Well you can add little old me to those numbers..........Boss called yesterday and I'm now unemployed Anyone need their wood chopping........

MB


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## noirua (19 November 2008)

MR. said:


> The actual unemployment was higher back in the early 90's.
> 
> The government intoduced the "Mature Age Allowance"
> 
> ...



There is a slight trend to employing older people who are more likely, when on pensions, to take a low paid job and not mind if they are asked to work only two or three days a week or take an extended unpaid holiday.

The silver haired brigade may well increasingly take much younger peoples jobs.  Fair game I say.


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## numbercruncher (19 November 2008)

*Re: Job Losses*



MrBurns said:


> I think we're heading for 9% or 1,000,000 unemployed by the end of next year.
> 
> I got to say I feel like turning this machine off and running out into the sunshine,
> I'm just about global financial crises'd out.





Your probably right ....


And when you consider that only 7 million people in Australia work fulltime it makes you stand back and think about bananas and all sorts of good things like that


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## Prospector (19 November 2008)

A company with whom we work put off two people yesterday    Totally unexpected.  They are into recruitment and consulting.

Mr Burns, I am so with you on that.  I wish this damn recession would just happen so we can start to claw our way back.  I DONT WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT ANYMORE!

Actually, I have just heard, make that SIX people!


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## arco (19 November 2008)

Moneybags said:


> Well you can add little old me to those numbers..........Boss called yesterday and I'm now unemployed Anyone need their wood chopping........
> 
> MB




Sorry to hear that - any chance you could start up on your own?


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## jeflin (19 November 2008)

Every company is only concerned with their bottom line. Retrenchment is the measure of first resort.

The poor lose their job while the top management only forgo their bonuses.


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## prawn_86 (19 November 2008)

Prospector said:


> I wish this damn recession would just happen so we can start to claw our way back.




Yep i agree. Another example of the failures of democracy with politicians trying to please the masses by keeping the bubble going.

The sooner the recession is over the sooner firms will start employing again, which is good for everyone...


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## Moneybags (19 November 2008)

arco said:


> Sorry to hear that - any chance you could start up on your own?




Cheers Arco, that's a very real possibility.

MB


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## MR. (19 November 2008)

jeflin said:


> Every company is only concerned with their bottom line. Retrenchment is the measure of first resort.
> 
> The poor lose their job while the top management only forgo their bonuses.




These first retrenched (working class) having, as thought a sercure job, no doubt have longer term debts.  

Get back out there.  But firstly think of which jobs will always be needed.  There has been discussions on other (dedicated threads.) 

http://www.positionsvacant.com.au/JobSearch/jobseeker/position/positionSearch.aspx


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## MR. (19 November 2008)

Prospector said:


> I DONT WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT ANYMORE!
> 
> Actually, I have just heard, make that SIX people!






prawn_86 said:


> Yep i agree. Another example of the failures of democracy with politicians trying to please the masses by keeping the bubble going.
> 
> The sooner the recession is over the sooner firms will start employing again, which is good for everyone...




We really do not want the bubble to pop though?  

Deflate is what we want, surely.  ("want" may not be the correct word)


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## MrBurns (19 November 2008)

Moneybags said:


> Cheers Arco, that's a very real possibility.
> 
> MB




If you work for yourself Moneybags even if you make sweet FA at least some bastard cant give you the sack, you're in control. (well sort of) Good luck, just do it and dont look back, you'll love it.


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## Spek (19 November 2008)

Big fat law firms have had head count freeze most of the year but are now quietly ramping up redundancies.


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## Indie (19 November 2008)

MR. said:


> We really do not want the bubble to pop though?
> 
> Deflate is what we want, surely.  ("want" may not be the correct word)




Deflation is better than hyper-inflation.

At least deflation makes most things more affordable, provided you have income of some sort. Even welfare payments. Those with a good income are able to afford a better living standard as the price of most goods falls in relation to dollars. But rising unemployment would probably see falling wages too as competition in the labour market intensifies.

As far as jobs go, the problem is working out where the next driver for employment is going to come from now that the financial services industry has peaked and resources are in for a protracted down period as production is slashed. We need something like the dot.com boom.


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## tommymac (19 November 2008)

Moneybags said:


> Well you can add little old me to those numbers..........Boss called yesterday and I'm now unemployed Anyone need their wood chopping........
> 
> MB




Sorry to hear that MB.

I too am in that position. I'll save you a spot in the line at Centrelink.


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## Smurf1976 (19 November 2008)

Just heard the Tas premier noting that economic conditions had "deteriorated rapidly". Bottom line? Public service job cuts may be on the agenda including in areas such as health.

Everywhere I look, I see nothing but signs of economic trouble. It's not a case of mixed signals or maybe a soft patch, it's outright doom and gloom practically everywhere. In that environment it's inevitable that first a hiring freeze and then job cuts will be on the agenda of many businesses both small and large.

I'm thinking it's all down hill for the next 12 - 18 months with the real economy. The markets should bottom first in theory but with the real economy the slide has barely started.


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## Julia (19 November 2008)

Tommymac and Moneybags, really sorry to hear of the job loss.
Hope something else turns up or you can get creative and be your own boss.
All the best.


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## numbercruncher (19 November 2008)

Indie said:


> As far as jobs go, the problem is working out where the next driver for employment is going to come from now that the financial services industry has peaked and resources are in for a protracted down period as production is slashed. We need something like the dot.com boom.




The enviromental/sustainability, alternative energy business has got to be the next mega boom old mate Obama has said hes going to get right behind enviromental concerns ......

Maybe humanities last chance to get it right, if we cant build a sustainable world its going to end really badly ...


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## chops_a_must (19 November 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The enviromental/sustainability, alternative energy business has got to be the next mega boom old mate Obama has said hes going to get right behind enviromental concerns ......
> 
> Maybe humanities last chance to get it right, if we cant build a sustainable world its going to end really badly ...



Not gonna happen.

Most of those jobs go along with the mining business.

And in any case, Rudd killed the alternative energy industry here. Absolute moron.


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## Smurf1976 (19 November 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The enviromental/sustainability, alternative energy business has got to be the next mega boom old mate Obama has said hes going to get right behind enviromental concerns ......
> 
> Maybe humanities last chance to get it right, if we cant build a sustainable world its going to end really badly ...



Totally agreed that energy is the "next big thing" but I'd expect that to be all forms of primary energy production whether "green" or not. 

With the current situation killing off projects left, right and centre (globally) we'll very soon be hit with declining production of conventional energy sources (globally) as existing fields continue their natural declines, mines are worked out, reactors wear out and so on. That's what happens if not much new gets built while the old is slowly used up, worn out etc.

Then I think we'll end up in a panic once the economy climbs out of recession and runs head on into energy constraints. Then we'll end up using anything and everything that works no matter what the consequences - that's historically what happens when the lights really are about to go out.

Relevant jobs? Basically anything related to large scale construction.


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## Wysiwyg (19 November 2008)

An Earth of concrete and steel.Like a swarm of locusts smothering every square centimetre of ground.Engulfing ... consuming ... conquering ... dominant of land, choking of sea.


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## chops_a_must (19 November 2008)

I fear for the meth dealers.

What are they going to do when the FIFO crew can no longer afford it?


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## Moneybags (19 November 2008)

tommymac said:


> Sorry to hear that MB.
> 
> I too am in that position. I'll save you a spot in the line at Centrelink.




Cheers tommy, not sure if I'm entitled actually. 

Good luck to you, hope you find something soon.

MB


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## Moneybags (19 November 2008)

Julia said:


> Tommymac and Moneybags, really sorry to hear of the job loss.
> Hope something else turns up or you can get creative and be your own boss.
> All the best.




Thanks Julia, I have an interview tomorrow so we'll see.......stiff competition for jobs up here.

MB


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## Wysiwyg (19 November 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I fear for the meth dealers.
> 
> What are they going to do when the FIFO crew can no longer afford it?





Indeed, drugs, theft, backstabbing, fraud, drinking, smoking etcetera could all be on the increase.


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## noirua (19 November 2008)

As I worked around the world contract, mostly through agencies. I had a lot of experiences of job problems.
Strange how it was always easier to find a new contract when I had one already and terribly difficult sitting at home, even worse in a hotel.

Makes it easier if you have an "on your bike", type of attitude. That is, Perth in January, UK in March and Norway in November.  This happened to me, and I don't say you have to go this far, but a stay in State attitude is restrictive.


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## MR. (19 November 2008)

"There will be a small reduction in our workforce for Citi Australia," a spokesperson told news.com.au.
Citigroup has 2500 employees in Australia, primarily in Sydney and Melbourne.

Westpac as it swallows smaller rival St George and cuts up to 2000 jobs. 

Suncorp last week said it would cut 350 staff, on top of the 200 it has already lost by merging its retail and banking businesses. 

Macquarie Group, Australia's largest investment bank, has put 600 property and real estate bankers on notice that jobs will be slashed across that division. 

News Corp's executive chairman Rupert Murdoch has flagged  "across-the-board'' job cuts at the media giant's Australian and British operations. 

Queensland employers who sack staff in response to the financial crisis could find themselves in the middle of a "legal minefield", a Gold Coast expert has warned.

Fairfax has been slashing hundreds of jobs to cut costs, but chief executive David Kirk has been given a 24 per cent pay rise.

Approx' 40 senior bankers have been sacked from ANZ in the past few weeks

National Australia Bank cut 179 technology staff


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## chops_a_must (19 November 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Indeed, drugs, theft, backstabbing, fraud, drinking, smoking etcetera could all be on the increase.




Yeah, probably just sector rotation.

You know, back into the smack, downers etc.

Rather than the "wealthy" stimulant types in coke, meth and the like. Which has been especially a massive industry with all the wealthy workers over here that are looking to get into things that don't show up on company tests.


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## doogie_goes_off (19 November 2008)

I've got  that says Newcrest will cull some Cu production and associated jobs, I'd bet a dollar but I've lost too many punts this year.


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## MR. (20 November 2008)

FORD will keep its Geelong car engine plant open beyond 2010, saving more than 1000 jobs.


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## MR. (22 November 2008)

Consolidated Minerals set to shed more than 180 staff and contractors by mid-December.

The Public Service Association (PSA) says 4,000 jobs will be cut over the next year because of New South Wales mini-Budget.

ANZ Bank is rumoured to be about to lay off 1,000 middle management roles. 

Endeavour Mine recently announcing over 100 redundancies as zinc and lead production at the site is halved.

UP TO 87,000 Sydney jobs could be lost over the next year if a downturn in construction continues, developers say.   ???????
("developers say" while asking the government for help) 

Brisbane recruitment industry has been one of the first sectors hit in terms of job losses in the current economic downturn.  As one rival recruiter said:""I have never seen it so quiet. People are employing still but they don’t want to pay the fees of recruiters or headhunters.’’


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## numbercruncher (22 November 2008)

> UP TO 87,000 Sydney jobs could be lost over the next year if a downturn in construction continues, developers say





That would be wonderful - This would then bring Tradies wages under control at last ! and hopefully weed out some of the cowboys ...


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## MR. (29 November 2008)

- Hans smallgoods goes into voluntary administration. High-profile administrators KordaMentha have told 1400 workers in Queensland that their jobs are safe. Administrator Mark Mentha said the business will trade normally while a buyer is sought.

- American Express -- where 7000 jobs, including senior roles such as the Australian head of marketing, have gone. 

- Relatively strong leading up to Christmas are the entertainment, packaged goods and charity sectors. 
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24694413-7582,00.html

- NSW Government's recent mini-budget.  A spokesperson for NCAHS said it was not yet possible to provide details of redundancies at individual hospitals, but confirmed the total number of NCAHS staff to be axed would be about 400.  
http://www.dailyexaminer.com.au/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3791201

- Elders Rural Services has announced it will cut its workforce by 140 employees 
http://www.wabusinessnews.com.au/en-story.php?/1/68644/Elders-cuts-140-jobs-

- Volvo Commercial Vehicles Australia (VCVA) has defended its decision to make 130 of its Brisbane staff redundant one week before Christmas.
http://www.abcscience.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/20/2424605.htm?section=justin

- Hundreds of job losses at La Trobe and Victoria universities.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/776/40023


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## Smurf1976 (29 November 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> That would be wonderful - This would then bring Tradies wages under control at last ! and hopefully weed out some of the cowboys ...



Same could be said for lawyers and a few others as well. Their charges are truly ridiculous for providing a "service" they themselves have largely made "necessary" in the first place. Talk about rip off! 

Create the demand, apply crippling penalites to anyone who tries to opt out, monopolise the supply and then charge a fortune. No tradie even comes close to that one. 

Sadly, lawyers and their associates will be one group that probably benefits out of all of this. As with most things non-productive, it seems to be constantly expanding and by doing so is crippling real wealth creation via the production of real goods. 

If they do exactly what they're supposed to do (which for obvious reasons nobody would actually do) then a self-employed tradie could spend 1 hour administering the business and buying materials, 3 hours doing actual productive work and 4 hours covering themselves "in case there's a lawyer around" in an 8 hour working day. Such is the huge cost of the legal system and the practice of winning cases on technicalities and ridiculous things such as some fool stepping in a hole that was clearly visible because they weren't looking where they were walking.

Get rid of all the silly law suits, just retain the genuine things and not burglars cutting themselves on the glass they broke etc, and we'll instantly double that tradie's output to 6 hours of real work, 1 hour administering and buying things, 1 hour making sure NECESSARY rules and regs, as distinct from all the pointless ones, are followed.

So there's no need to put 87,000 people out of work to bring down rates. Just get rid of all the ridiculous red tape and that'll fix this and a lot of other problems. By making the economy more productive, it should create wealth in the long term. That's the fundamental theory behind every economic reform we've had over the past quarter century.


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## Illuminated one (2 December 2008)

You know, this maybe not be the smartest comment on here, but i hope China and India goes under and Manufacturing is brought back to Australia, so the work force can be re-established, since those blood suckers in China and India produce the most toxic, crappiest products known to man. 

Losing Jobs in a country like Australia is BS, foreign corporate greed is trying to exploit Aussie workers and we shouldn't let this happen!


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## michael_t_f (2 December 2008)

Numbercruncher have you ever done a days work as a tradie? I think we earn our money, yes we get some jobs which are easy but some days I come home and I am physically worn out.
At least a tradesperson is producing something in return for money.


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## Illuminated one (2 December 2008)

michael_t_f said:


> Numbercruncher have you ever done a days work as a tradie? I think we earn our money, yes we get some jobs which are easy but some days I come home and I am physically worn out.
> At least a tradesperson is producing something in return for money.




Tradies are by far one of the most important professions on earth! Without tradies we would be living in caves and ****ting in dug up holes and have no electricity, anyone who states that tradies don't work hard are absolutely ignorant fools and stereotype, it depends on the person, if he is slack, then he won't go very far and won't get paid a whole lot of money.


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## doctorj (3 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> You know, this maybe not be the smartest comment on here, but i hope China and India goes under and Manufacturing is brought back to Australia, so the work force can be re-established, since those blood suckers in China and India produce the most toxic, crappiest products known to man.
> 
> Losing Jobs in a country like Australia is BS, foreign corporate greed is trying to exploit Aussie workers and we shouldn't let this happen!



This is a well-worn argument.  The next step is to call for import tariffs and increases in subsidies to keep jobs in Australia.  As long as Australia is ok, who cares about the other countries right?

As tempting as that course of action may be, the reality is it has been proven time and again that it just doesn’t work.  Protectionism has a vastly negative impact on global GDP and by extension employment levels.

There is a considerable amount of literature on the role protectionism played in causing The Great Depression that is relevant to this discussion that’s just a well-directed google query away.  Furthermore recent history’s failure of the decoupling theory is a lesson that the success (or failure) of any given economy is highly correlated with that of other countries.  Protectionism is detrimental to world GDP and therefore would eventually damage the economies of those countries that implement it.

As for manufacturing in Australia, the fact is that Australia’s highly educated work force has a competitive advantage exporting high value things such as intellectual property and education than volume driven, low margin items.  We can’t compete with China’s manufacturing, but the good news is that we shouldn’t have to.

All that said, I think Australia needs to move away from it’s reliance on extractive and agricultural industries.  These markets are highly cyclical, volatile and by nature finite endeavours.


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## numbercruncher (3 December 2008)

Oh dont get me wrong - yes i realise many tradies work hard, some even deserve the earnings, and many other professions are also currently in bubble wages.

Global recession will sort out the bubble wages - maybe soon the average Australian Granny will be able to afford to have her dunny fixed ?




> Numbercruncher have you ever done a days work as a tradie?




Ive done stacks of physical work - never any brick/concrete work , thats about the only trade I would consider really physically hard - but saying that they are typically rip off prices too so tend to bludge alot - 

The Rudd Gov is getting desperate to keep the game going, looking like they will blow all Australias cash and fail to boot ....

Oh well everyone loves a punt no ?


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## numbercruncher (3 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> You know, this maybe not be the smartest comment on here, but i hope China and India goes under and Manufacturing is brought back to Australia, so the work force can be re-established, since those blood suckers in China and India produce the most toxic, crappiest products known to man.
> 
> Losing Jobs in a country like Australia is BS, foreign corporate greed is trying to exploit Aussie workers and we shouldn't let this happen!





Yes the Globilisation experiment in its current unregulated poorly managed form is pathetic.

Pro-globalists will argue otherwise with lots of fancy sounding theorys and historical proofs which is just laughable considering how young this little experiment is (that is currently facing its first stress test).

Australia would be well served to form trade blocks with countries of similar agendas - I have a feeling the Fight against climate change and things like carbon trading will facilitate this.

Places like China are already closing factories faster than they went up, the business plan of currency manipulation and razor thin margins is finally up.

Interesting times


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## numbercruncher (3 December 2008)

never ending job losses ...



> MACQUARIE Group is preparing a savage cut of its Australian and global workforce.
> 
> Hundreds of jobs are at risk overall as the bank positions itself for a global investment banking rout.




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24736281-643,00.html


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## doctorj (3 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> The Rudd Gov is getting desperate to keep the game going, looking like they will blow all Australias cash and fail to boot ....
> 
> Oh well everyone loves a punt no ?



What's wrong with spending a swag of money?

Public debt isn't great, but what is the alternative to the Keynesian approach? Deflation?

Deflation sounds like a nice idea - who wouldn't want to pay less for things?  But what does that mean?  Why would people/firms buy today when they know they can buy tomorrow for less?  Where do employee wages come from when people are delaying (and reducing) their spending?  

Government spending should be countercyclical and I think it's fair to say Australia has done this through the budget surplus and the future fund (etc).  So if we've saved during good times, what is the harm in spending when it's bad?  Where will your tax dollar come from tomorrow when everyone's unemployed?


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## numbercruncher (3 December 2008)

If it was spent on infrastructure or something constructive sure .....

But they are just divving it out " hoping " people will spend it ! what a stupid plan I reckon .... even im getting thousands that go straight into the bank account, does nothing for the economy and im sure plenty of others are in the ame boat.

They are handling the issue poorly imho.

Hopefully once they start taking on serious debt to keep the welfare state alive they atleast roll out infrastructure like Obama plans to.

Anyway, what have you got against deflation ? everyhings getting cheaper, fun fun !


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## Illuminated one (3 December 2008)

Apparently 67,500 factories have already shut in China, those numbers are staggering!!!


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## doctorj (3 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> If it was spent on infrastructure or something constructive sure .....



Infrastructure is good because its something tangible provides lasting benefits to an economy or society.  The downside is the spending is actually very long-tail.  Once you set aside money for an infrastructure project, it's often years in the planning before any real money is spent and therefore it comes in too late to be of any benefit.  You're right that stimulation through tax breaks or the like isn't great either as people might save, but at least the portion spent stimulates the economy.  Ideally, the solution would be some mix of long and short tail stimulus packages.



numbercruncher said:


> But they are just divving it out " hoping " people will spend it ! what a stupid plan I reckon .... even im getting thousands that go straight into the bank account, does nothing for the economy and im sure plenty of others are in the ame boat.



Savings are an important part of any bank's capital base - but that's another argument for another day.



numbercruncher said:


> Anyway, what have you got against deflation ? everyhings getting cheaper, fun fun !



I think my original post covers why I'm not a fan of deflation.


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## Aussiejeff (3 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Apparently 67,500 factories have already shut in China, those numbers are staggering!!!




[size=-4]*psssttt!!!* - don't tell Swannie - he'll have a fit[/size]


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## Julia (3 December 2008)

doctorj said:


> What's wrong with spending a swag of money?
> 
> Public debt isn't great, but what is the alternative to the Keynesian approach? Deflation?
> 
> So if we've saved during good times, what is the harm in spending when it's bad?  Where will your tax dollar come from tomorrow when everyone's unemployed?




Your point is well made.  But let's not forget that politically the resulting deficit is going to be unpalatable and taxes will rise to deal with it.


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## Bushman (3 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Apparently 67,500 factories have already shut in China, those numbers are staggering!!!




Aren't there millions of factories in China? 

I would say this number equates to less than 1%.


----------



## Illuminated one (3 December 2008)

Bushman said:


> Aren't there millions of factories in China?
> 
> I would say this number equates to less than 1%.




Yes, there are millions of factories in China, but there will tens of thousands more closing in the 6 months, however can anyone comprehend 67,500 factories shutting in a couple of months? Isn't that amazing?


----------



## numbercruncher (3 December 2008)

Bushman said:


> Aren't there millions of factories in China?
> 
> I would say this number equates to less than 1%.




I seriously doubt that .....

I read half of all the toy factories are closed for a start ....

Dont underestimate how HUGE this downturn is, just because we arnt seeing it too bad in our real economy YET.


----------



## theasxgorilla (3 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Yes, there are millions of factories in China, but there will tens of thousands more closing in the 6 months, however can anyone comprehend 67,500 factories shutting in a couple of months? Isn't that amazing?




Eh?  Really? 1.3 billion people, assume that _millions_ means at least 2,000,000...that suggests one factory per 650 inhabitants.  Sounds like an over-estimation doesn't it?


----------



## Illuminated one (3 December 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> Eh?  Really? 1.3 billion people, assume that _millions_ means at least 2,000,000...that suggests one factory per 650 inhabitants.  Sounds like an over-estimation doesn't it?




67,500 factories have closed in China over the first half of this year, according to statistics released by the Chinese Communist Party.

That means that in China today, more than 11,000 factories are being shutdown every month.

The massive and rapid closure of factories, especially in the Pearl River Delta area of Southern Guangdong province, have left factory workers irate and seething. The emotion is spilling out into the open with increasing protests.

The shutdown of the factories led to workers taking to the streets to protest, demanding back pay that had not been issued to them. The regime has often used force to suppress these protests and thrown workers into prison.

The global economic recession had caused a steep decline in the Chinese export market, the backbone of many factories that produce cheap goods for the international market.

Maybe it is an overstatement on my behalf, but I'm not far off.....


----------



## Bushman (3 December 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> Eh?  Really? 1.3 billion people, assume that _millions_ means at least 2,000,000...that suggests one factory per 650 inhabitants.  Sounds like an over-estimation doesn't it?




I guess it all comes down to the definition of a 'factory'. 

If you follow your logic, Australia has 22m inhabitants - apply the ratio of 650:1 and you get 33,846 factories. Now if you include small operators (say 1-5 people workshops, small engineering firms, food processors etc) then 34,000 odd factories sounds about right to me. 

Then again China has a large rural population that is unlikely to be working in industrial complexes so 2m odd 'factories' might not seem right. 

Anyway the point being that 67,000 factories (with a further 30,000 forecast in the next 6 months), whilst a staggeringly large number by Australia standards, needs to be taken in the conext of the total population of factories. 

Anyone with an 'official' number for factories in China (and Australia for that matter). 

PS: Japanese steel makers have started closing down blast furnaces, which is a measure of the drop in steel orders as it is very rare for furnaces to be closed. Ugly, ugly six months ahead.


----------



## MR. (7 December 2008)

ANZ Bank increases the number of job cuts to 800.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439543.htm

Banks skim a few percent off their in and out goings.  So if the banks continue to cut jobs what is the real effect on the economy.  If someone borrowed $60,000 for a home extension the bank’s return (In minus outgoings) per annum is minimal compared to the 60,000 spent on materials and tradesman.   



On a side note from the US:
America loses 1.9 million jobs in 11 months (1/4 in November of 533,000)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/us_nov_2008_jobs_report/

and Canada loses 70,600 jobs in a month, most since '82
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe.../jobs_numbers_081205/20081205?hub=CTVNewsAt11


----------



## banco (7 December 2008)

MR. said:


> The actual unemployment was higher back in the early 90's.
> 
> The government intoduced the "Mature Age Allowance"
> 
> ...




If you look at the number of people on the disability pension it looks like labor used it to hide the number of people unemployed during the '80's and early '90's.  Howard took some rather timid steps to wind it back but eventually gave up and put it in the too hard basket.  Be interesting to see if there is a big spike in the number of people on the disability pension in the next few years.


----------



## shaunQ (7 December 2008)

banco said:


> If you look at the number of people on the disability pension it looks like labor used it to hide the number of people unemployed during the '80's and early '90's. Howard took some rather timid steps to wind it back but eventually gave up and put it in the too hard basket. Be interesting to see if there is a big spike in the number of people on the disability pension in the next few years.




Both Liberal and Labor have both manipulated the unemployment numbers to their own benefit. Howard was the king of statistical deception, and restricted FOI to avoid scrutiny.


----------



## kitehigh (11 December 2008)

*RIO to slash 14,000 Jobs*

*Mining giant cuts 14,000 jobs*

F AUSTRALIA needed any further evidence the resources boom has shuddered to a halt, it came yesterday in the announcement the world's second biggest miner, Rio Tinto, would lay off 14,000 workers.

Rio Tinto refused to indicate how many of its 17,000 full-time staff and several thousand contractors in Australia would be affected by the cuts. It employs about 110,000 workers and contractors globally.

http://business.smh.com.au/business/mining-giant-cuts-14000-jobs-20081210-6vu1.html

I wonder how many of those will be in Australia, this looks like it starting to get serious.


----------



## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

*Re: RIO to slash 14,000 Jobs*



kitehigh said:


> *Mining giant cuts 14,000 jobs*
> 
> F AUSTRALIA needed any further evidence the resources boom has shuddered to a halt, it came yesterday in the announcement the world's second biggest miner, Rio Tinto, would lay off 14,000 workers.
> 
> ...




Don't worry. I'm sure the GuvMint will use some creative statistical accounting to swallow up any job losses with nary a *burp*. 

In theory, the GuvMint could declare NO-ONE in Oz is unemployed if they defined anyone who regularly fills out Newstart Forms as being "temporarily employed in office work" (since even a tiny amount of temp work means you don't get counted in the unemployment stats). 

Actually, I'm surprised they haven't already done that!


----------



## wayneL (11 December 2008)

*Re: RIO to slash 14,000 Jobs*



Aussiejeff said:


> Don't worry. I'm sure the GuvMint will use some creative statistical accounting to swallow up any job losses with nary a *burp*.
> 
> In theory, the GuvMint could declare NO-ONE in Oz is unemployed if they defined anyone who regularly fills out Newstart Forms as being "temporarily employed in office work" (since even a tiny amount of temp work means you don't get counted in the unemployment stats).
> 
> Actually, I'm surprised they haven't already done that!




They could do what the Uk does and put everyone on disability pension.


----------



## Aussiejeff (11 December 2008)

*Re: RIO to slash 14,000 Jobs*



wayneL said:


> They could do what the Uk does and put everyone on disability pension.




Silly sausages! That actually costs money! Why not simply tell a lie?


----------



## wayneL (11 December 2008)

*Re: RIO to slash 14,000 Jobs*



Aussiejeff said:


> Silly sausages! That actually costs money! Why not simply tell a lie?




Because it was a Tory idea. It took the Labour Party to figure out that 90% of people believe any BS you tell them.


----------



## numbercruncher (23 December 2008)

Seems the job losses are stacking up ...




> Finance leads the national job lossesEMPLOYMENT Clancy Yeates
> December 22, 2008
> THE economic crisis is taking its toll on two of the country's biggest employment sectors. The latest official figures show heavy falls in finance and retail jobs in the three months to the end of November.
> 
> ...



 cont ....

http://business.smh.com.au/business/finance-leads-the-national-job-losses-20081221-72za.html


----------



## Aussiejeff (23 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Seems the job losses are stacking up ...
> 
> 
> cont ....
> ...




Those "modest" retail job losses could well become "shocking" after the Xmas & New Year cheer/hangover has worn off and retail sales hit the wall (especially with most imports, especially electrical goods, expected to rocket up 20-30% with post Xmas re-stocking at current exchange rate) 

Then come the *groan* Dec Qtr company reports   which will probably be some of the worst in Australian corporate history. I expect more massive layoffs after that flurry of paper and ducking for cover as well.

Oh well, don't worry, be happy. It's Xmas

May your leg grow twice as big and strong!! 
:santa:


----------



## juddy (6 January 2009)

The riskiest and safest jobs for 2009

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=116152


----------



## Aussiejeff (15 January 2009)

*Oz Unemployment*

This does not bode well. No matter how Krudd 'n Co. might want to spin up the "offset of part-time employment".

It is patently a ridiculous situation where the Gummint will spin lies, DAMNED LIES about the nett "total un-employment" only growing by 0.1% - when we all know that 1 part-time job (of as little as 2 hours per week) DOES NOT = 1 Full Time job of up to 50 hrs or more per week! 

It's time for the Gummint to scrap the current measurement system. The Lil' OZZiEcon is CLEARLY in BIGGER trouble than they want to let on...



> *[size=+1Massive drop in full-time jobs[/size]*
> Chris Zappone
> January 15, 2009 - 1:42PM
> 
> ...




Full article here - http://business.theage.com.au/business/massive-drop-in-fulltime-jobs-20090115-7hdk.html


----------



## numbercruncher (16 January 2009)

Look how tough our American cousins are doing it ....




> With more than three job seekers for every opening, it takes more than printing your resume on premium paper stock to get noticed.





http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/14/pf/unconventional_job_searches/index.htm?postversion=2009011413


Was also just reading dole in US pays USD300 per week and they are talking pumping it up another 25 ...... not bad pay for takin it easy ? alot more than we give our Pensioners etc huh ?


----------



## GumbyLearner (16 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> Look how tough our American cousins are doing it ....
> 
> Hearing you NC! Its really a question of what is "free" and what is "FAIR" ?
> 
> ...


----------



## GumbyLearner (16 January 2009)

shaunQ said:


> Both Liberal and Labor have both manipulated the unemployment numbers to their own benefit. Howard was the king of statistical deception, and restricted FOI to avoid scrutiny.




Agreed. Whats popular and reported is what counts..but not on meal tables!


----------



## numbercruncher (16 January 2009)

*Re: Oz Unemployment*



Aussiejeff said:


> This does not bode well. No matter how Krudd 'n Co. might want to spin up the "offset of part-time employment".
> 
> It is patently a ridiculous situation where the Gummint will spin lies, DAMNED LIES about the nett "total un-employment" only growing by 0.1% - when we all know that 1 part-time job *(of as little as 2 hours per week)* DOES NOT = 1 Full Time job of up to 50 hrs or more per week!
> 
> ...





Yes it demonstrates how dire things are when an "employed" person is defined as working 2hrs or more a week and the experts tip 9pc unemployment by 2009 ....

Every day that passes brings us closer to that fabled Banana republic.


----------



## GumbyLearner (16 January 2009)

*Re: Oz Unemployment*



numbercruncher said:


> Yes it demonstrates how dire things are when an "employed" person is defined as working 2hrs or more a week and the experts tip 9pc unemployment by 2009 ....
> 
> Every day that passes brings us closer to that fabled Banana republic.




Absolutely agree NC! Total Garbage!

But you could agree to a "fairer" system from an Overlord and work for much less. You know a guy that has a lot to say about this is Numbercrucher and/or you or me!

My own opinion of the IMF/World Bank or Made-off is that he NEVER HAS A CHANCE TO survive to fight another day! But you know what....(he is pretty GUTLESS and vulnerable ATM unless he humbles HIMSELF!) Probably at a greater risk of getting neck-tied than your average fella in the street. I wouldnt be surprised to see this guy get physicalled smashed compared to retail investors who have worked all their lives for MADOFF's promise of a return!

What a terribly dishonest guy!

This guy has committed fraud against his own investors, by tellpmg them they will for sure have a greter return (ie.10% GARBAGE)

He never was a retail investor!


In the words of Paul Hogan....

Come and Get Me... F***en Pussy!

BEAUTIFUL ONE DAY, DODGY THE NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Aussiejeff (16 January 2009)

Here is the ABS 2006 Employment comparison of the Labour Force Survey with the 2006 Census. The Labour Force Survey is generally taken as the "more accurate" figures. 

In fact, my statement that the ABS regards an "employed" person as working more than 2 hours per week was PLAIN WRONG. My humble apologies. I just visited the ABS website and discovered it's actually [size=+1]ONE hour per week or more over the age of 15!!!![/size]  How ridiculous!! 

For your ultimate enlightenment, here be from the horses mouths - 



> 3.9 The definition of employment used in the Labour Force Survey aligns closely with the concepts and international definitions outlined above. *Employed persons are defined as all persons 15 years of age and over who, during the reference week:
> 
> (a) worked for one hour or more for pay, profit, commission or payment in kind, in a job or business or on a farm (comprising employees, employers and own account workers); or
> 
> ...




I love definition (b). Working for 1 hour or more FOR NO PAY! So the ABS also includes lots of "part time family employees earning nothing" in the stats? Imagine if everyone was in that category? They could claim 100% Ozzie employment - but no actual disposable income. LOL. This is the sort of rubbish stats that the Gummint & ABS include that mislead people into thinking our employment stats are so "wonderful". 

Regarding the attached 2006 LFS breakdown of "employment by hours worked", note they include 525,900 people as having worked 0 hours!! LOL (I presume it really means from 0-1 hours?).

Also interesting to see how almost 40% of the part-timers (ie, PART TIME is those who were working between 0-35 hrs per week during the survey period) were in the 1-15hrs per week bracket! I would guess the percentages in that bracket are a LOT higher atm. 

So, my re-assessment would be that the real impact of falling national total hours of employment on GDP is a LOT WORSE than I previously had estimated, since the ABS appears to be including all over 15's who work 0-35 hrs as being part-time employed!! 

I'd love to see the current percentage breakdown in the LFS to compare it with the 2006 figures. Can't find it though.


----------



## gfresh (16 January 2009)

What an absolute ****ing joke.. I knew it was dodgy, but not even that much. 

This sort of thing should be added to every news story which mentions the (very shifty) unemployment figures!


----------



## nomore4s (21 January 2009)

Job losses starting to really gain momentum now.

BHP axing over 3000 (in Aust)
DJS - 150
HVN - 40 with more to come
Aust Discount Retail Group (company that owns Crazy Clarks) has gone bust - 2700 at risk of losing jobs.

And this is just what has been announced this week!

I read somewhere that with BHP axing jobs there has now been over 8000 jobs axed from the mining industry since June.

You imagine there has to be more job cuts coming shortly from the retail industry, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the banks starting to shed staff either - especially as thier profits contract.


----------



## prawn_86 (21 January 2009)

Yep, looking just peachy for those graduating this year, even the gov is cutting back.


----------



## MrBurns (21 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Yep, looking just peachy for those graduating this year, even the gov is cutting back.




Rudd should put his money where his mouth is on this, *employ more not less*


----------



## nomore4s (21 January 2009)

Burnsie, what about Rudds form, telling employees to hold back on asking for a pay increase but at the same time he's paying his staff who are already on huge salaries bonuses.


----------



## MrBurns (21 January 2009)

nomore4s said:


> Burnsie, what about Rudds form, telling employees to hold back on asking for a pay increase but at the same time he's paying his staff who are already on huge salaries bonuses.




He's also telling employers not to sack people, so he should lead by example, in fact he should be employing more to help out.


----------



## prawn_86 (21 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> He's also telling employers not to sack people, so he should lead by example, in fact he should be employing more to help out.




Oh no, the gov is allowed to be *cough* fiscally conservative *cough* and try to save money (while still racking up a massive deficit, work that out), but business should do whats right for the country...

Politics... its all the biggest crock of **** going


----------



## MrBurns (21 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Oh no, the gov is allowed to be *cough* fiscally conservative *cough* and try to save money (while still racking up a massive deficit, work that out), but business should do whats right for the country...
> 
> Politics... its all the biggest crock of **** going




Amen..........


----------



## Aussiejeff (21 January 2009)

nomore4s said:


> Job losses starting to really gain momentum now.
> 
> BHP axing over 3000 (in Aust)
> DJS - 150
> ...




In local Albury news, add to the list  - Sam's Discount Warehouses & Go-Lo discount stores are also now in the hands of receivers as of today. Stores will be forced to close and staff dismissed if buyers cannot be found. Hmmm. Who would be crazy enough to buy into ANY tight margin discount business at this point in time? I don't fancy their chances of getting buyers.


aj

PS: Are these the same as Crazy Clark's?


----------



## gfresh (21 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> PS: Are these the same as Crazy Clark's?




Yes.. as well as "The Warehouse Group", and "Chickenfeed" (whoever they are)

Crazy Clark's is big in QLD.. will be quite a few out of work here if no buyer. I also have nowhere to buy my work xmas presents this year 

400 stores Australia wide apparently:

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Discount_Retail


----------



## Aussiejeff (22 January 2009)

No problemo.

Oh Mighty Supa-KRudd has spoken. Employers across the nation will heed his rally-call and retain ALL employees at ALL cost, even sacrificing their own wages to do so! See? Big Brother BHP, quaking with fear at their Mighty Leader's call, have responded in kind!!

Hallelujah.....

:silly:


----------



## investorpaul (22 January 2009)

Over the next 6 months we are going to see a raft of job losses. Retailers have come out of the christmas/post christmas sales realising how bad the market is and will be quick to cut costs.

Miners/financial companies have probably seen it coming a little bit longer and if they hadnt already laid off staff and now realised they need to do so and quickly. The market is changing so suddenly they cannot leave themselves vunerable and have to cut costs.

In regard the the ABS calculating unemployment figures, if they insist on including part time employment (at least 1 hr a week) surely they should weight the calculation to give more emphasis on full time employment. Ie the the current unemployment rate approx 4.6% but if you weighted it to discount the impact of part timer (1 hr a week) then it would be 5.5% (or whatever it worked out to be). Or find some other way or providing a more accurate picture. All the current unemployment rate allows for is K Rudd to puff his chest and say unemployment is still low.


----------



## noirua (22 January 2009)

The UK's unemployment rate reached 6.1% at the end of November 2008. Forecasts are for the rate to reach 10% by 2010 and peak at around 12% by 2011.

If the UK's position was similar to 1929 then Australia's unemployment rate would peak at around 16%.
The mining sector is laying off and all the dependant industries will contract or fold.


----------



## Aussiejeff (22 January 2009)

noirua said:


> The UK's unemployment rate reached 6.1% at the end of November 2008. Forecasts are for the rate to reach 10% by 2010 and peak at around 12% by 2011.
> 
> If the UK's position was similar to 1929 then Australia's unemployment rate would peak at around 16%.
> The mining sector is laying off and *all the dependant industries will contract or fold.*




Aye. There be tha rub!

All you tend to see in the media is the "big" announcements of job cuts from major or well known companies. 

In fact there will be significant "compounding" job losses in the myriads of smaller companies, labour contractors and service suppliers etc. who are allied to the big companies and probably totally dependent on the bigger companies operating at close to maximum capacity or productivity.

This "hidden unemployment multiplier" shouldn't be under-estimated (unless you are SupaKRudd or Swan-ee).

aj


----------



## MR. (22 January 2009)

nomore4s said:


> Aust Discount Retail Group (company that owns Crazy Clarks) has gone bust - 2700 at risk of losing jobs.






Aussiejeff said:


> In local Albury news, add to the list  - Sam's Discount Warehouses & Go-Lo discount stores are also now in the hands of receivers as of today.




Now I'd think that Crazy Clarks and Go-Lo stores would do better (being discount stores) than others.  Aldi thinks the sky's the limit under the current conditions!  Debt must be the problem here!  ....  Good old debt bringing some of the worlds finest and oldest companies un-stuck.  

Makes you wonder where this will end if every company is geared!

Remember the aircraft company closures after 9/11 in the US?  Many US aircraft companies couldn't get through a single week without the receivers!   That opened my eyes!   



prawn_86 said:


> Yep, looking just peachy for those graduating this year, even the gov is cutting back.




Remember, just need "one hour of work" to be employed!


----------



## Beej (22 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Yep, looking just peachy for those graduating this year, even the gov is cutting back.




Don't stress about it too much - just stay positive and focused on your career goals. I graduated from uni in 1991 when unemployment was rocketing and hit over 10% in the next year or 2, so I know exactly what graduates will be looking at this year and next. It does depend of course what qualification you have and which industry you are interested in etc, but back in 1991 I ended up having no trouble getting a job as a graduate, and all my friends from uni also found proper full time jobs as well - every single one. In the professional ranks, it's middle aged middle managers that can have the biggest problems if laid off as unemployment is rising, as they can be more expensive and fussy, and may have skills that are seen as out of date etc. Graduates are seen as cheaper, "hungrier" labour by many firms in these times - better bang for their bucks.

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Oh no, the gov is allowed to be *cough* fiscally conservative *cough* and try to save money (while still racking up a massive deficit, work that out), but business should do whats right for the country...
> 
> Politics... its all the biggest crock of **** going





I totally agree prawn. 
Im sure there are many young people like yourslef who will be graduating this year or soon with not much to look for in the job market. And the problem with politics today is that the days of nation-building are a by-gone era. Most of these clowns in politics care about the short-term and what they can get for themselves while in office and who will offer them a whopping salary in the private sector once they get out. Most of them couldnt care less about the country just their OWN hip-pockets. But like Beej said dont give up mate there are jobs out there. Just dont expect any favors from eithger side of politics in Canberra there to busy counting their whopping tax-payer super when they get voted out after two terms at the age of 38.


----------



## numbercruncher (22 January 2009)

Yes anyone can find a job just might not be what you had i mind during this nasty lil recession though ....

All those employers struggling to fill positions in the past will have those "hungrier" types tapping on the door this year


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 January 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I totally agree prawn.
> Im sure there are many young people like yourself who will be graduating this year or soon with not much to look for in the job market.
> 
> And the problem with politics today is that the days of nation-building are a by-gone era. Most of these clowns in politics care about the short-term and what they can get for themselves while in office and who will offer them a whopping salary in the private sector once they get out.
> ...




Not to mention the decriminalizing of drug laws in Canberra, so senior public servants and the pollies little Johnnys dont embarrass the dynasty with a conviction!


----------



## numbercruncher (22 January 2009)

Apparently the in recievership ADR who owns Sams warehouse, Crazy clarks employ circa 2700 ..... all these industries unable to get applicants over past years (Military etc) could find themselves swamped v soon hey ?


----------



## numbercruncher (22 January 2009)

Anyone add BHPs latest layoffs ? looks likely to threaten the existence of 2 entire towns !



> THE Big Australian has turned out to be a big disappointment to the miners and locals around Ravensthorpe and Hopetoun.
> 
> "It's terrible," said Murray Podmore, a scaffolder with a wife, two children and a mortgage who worked at the $2.2 billion Ravensthorpe Nickel Operation for six months before being one of almost 1800 laid off yesterday.




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24945790-36418,00.html


Bet many of these miners on big bickies simply blew the lot bidding up local house prices now to watch them become virtually valueless ? ....

Crack-up boom alright


----------



## Monario (23 January 2009)

Maybe this is off cue, anyone have an opinion?

The fedral government uses 500mill of tax payers money annualy to subsidize there fuel consumption, anyone ware of this? it is a fact.

I say, if they cant afford to keep our citizens employed, the subsidy should be taken away to fund their unemployment cheques, not the pockets ff greedy miner/ceo's etc.....


----------



## numbercruncher (24 January 2009)

The great under employment sham is being exposed more and more .....




> THE number of people in the jobless queue is much higher than official figures because more than 800,000 part-time workers are desperate to work more hours.
> 
> "Unfortunately, under-employment is an issue that has not been understood by the Government or by those trying to predict the economic outlook for Australia," Roy Morgan Research chief executive Michele Levine said.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24954039-36418,00.html


Will we get another 300k immigrants this year to top up the under/unemployment ques ?


----------



## knocker (24 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> The great under employment sham is being exposed more and more .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course. And don't forget all those poor asylum seekers. They all deserve to get the dole more than any australian does. Let em in, I say. They are welcome to the cultural abyss that this country has become. And who do we blame when violence and crime gets out of hand?


----------



## Trevor_S (24 January 2009)

knocker said:


> And who do we blame when violence and crime gets out of hand?




errr.. criminals ?


----------



## numbercruncher (26 January 2009)

I see the Goverment is preparing for a massive upspike in dole bludging.




> THE Federal Government will hold crisis talks tomorrow with charities, welfare groups and employment agencies to discuss boosting the welfare system in preparation for the expected surge in unemployment caused by the global financial crisis.
> 
> Amid warnings the system is ill equipped to help the tens of thousands more people expected to lose their jobs, the Deputy Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, will meet groups including the Australian Council of Social Service, Catholic Social Services and the St Vincent de Paul Society.
> 
> They will consider raising the unemployment payment by $30 a week and increasing the resources of welfare agencies, and discuss short-term relief such as supplementing the income of people who lose their jobs or are moved to part-time work.




http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/saving-the-jobless-rudds-challenge/2009/01/25/1232818247988.html


----------



## Aussiejeff (26 January 2009)

Another *hidden* factor behind the rapidly swelling numbers of Newstart applicants would be the also rapidly increasing number of older workers who had planned on retiring in 2008/09 - but who are now staying put "until the crisis is over". Which could be years.

When the economy is *booming* along, there is a high retirement or attrition rate, since retirees pensions and super funds are growing fast & overflowing with enough wealth to make the decision relatively *easy*. Wanna retire at 55? Piece of cake, mate!

However, now that the economy is heading for *deep do-do's*, that once-high retirement or attrition rate would have shrunk to a trickle. Only those relative few that are "forced" to (or who have accumulated enough super to live on the returns, even after the nett value has been trashed) would actually be "retiring" in the present climate. In fact, three of my best mates who were going to retire in 2008-09 have now put that off indefinitely because all their super funds have been trashed & one of them can't sell his home without losing 100's of 1,000's based on current offers (Ferny Grove, Brisbane - upper middle class - too high price range for 1st home buyers). So all 3 who are in the possible retirement bracket and in upper level executive positions cannot retire. How many of you older ASF'ers have friends you know in that boat now?  

The result of this sudden, sharp reduction in old worker attrition (which helps create "top down" job opportunities - all the way to the junior levels) is that a far higher % of new job applicants from the "Now" generation will not even get a chance to work and will be forced to register with Newstart, straight out of high schools, techs or uni's. This is currently for an indefinite period (total guess 2009-2011?), since no-one with any real authority seems able to say with absolute confidence when the economic situation will turn around, so I suspect there will be little cheer for your "average" school, tech or uni leaver who managed only "average" or lower marks.

So, here comes a new generation of dole bludgers? Well, not really their fault - not for a good many of them. We shouldn't label them ALL as bludgers. As this econo-disaster plays out, the % of Newstarters that are REAL dole bludgers will fall significantly.



aj


----------



## nick2fish (26 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> Yes anyone can find a job just might not be what you had i mind during this nasty lil recession though ....
> 
> All those employers struggling to fill positions in the past will have those "hungrier" types tapping on the door this year




Thats exactly the truth.

For me its from 7on and 7off to 3weeks on and 1off (ouch)

Its an employers market atm ... what a change 6 months can bring


----------



## MR. (26 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> one of them can't sell his home without losing 100's of 1,000's based on current offers (Ferny Grove, Brisbane - upper middle class - too high price range for 1st home buyers).




IMO Property must be made attractive for buyers to buy. Business is Business. They need to think its a steal.  Who would buy now at full price?  Take the price of two years ago and these prices being offered now were normal.  Your friend must decide if he wants to sell or not.  So the top was missed.  If he sold everyone will think he sold too cheap including themselves but *maybe its only for just the time being.*

A day does not go by without thinking I sold way too cheap. (Explains in part my burning $100)
These decisions are very hard to make.  
The decision not to rent it out and sell it later I still stand by.
I see most have taken them off the market and have chosen to rent them out to sell later. (Refusing to accept the prices, perhaps like shares) 
We will see what happens!  

If one person in your street sold for a very good price suddenly everyone "thinks" their house is now worth that.  Perhaps, one person just paid too much! but I would look at it like that.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 January 2009)

gfresh said:


> Yes.. as well as "The Warehouse Group", and *"Chickenfeed" (whoever they are)*



Chickenfeed is a somewhat iconic discount retail chain in Tasmania with 28 stores spread across the state. That compares with 29 Woolworths and 14 Coles stores so Chickenfeed's presence is locally quite significant. 

Chickenfeed has very little direct competition, various attempts at opening rival discount stores (including by Woolworths) having failed to be successful. 

According to local media and the company website, whilst ADR is in trouble, Chickenfeed is a separate standalone business and remains profitable. 

http://www.chickenfeed.com.au/Chickenfeed_Media_Release_20Jan2009.pdf


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 January 2009)

Monario said:


> Maybe this is off cue, anyone have an opinion?
> 
> The fedral government uses 500mill of tax payers money annualy to subsidize there fuel consumption, anyone ware of this? it is a fact.



I have heard that claim many times but thus far nobody has been able to offer any proof when questioned.

My own enquiries lead me to conclude that there is no subsidy as such. There is however no penalty whereas there is for everyone else. A technicality maybe, but that's a penalty for most but not a subsidy for miners etc as such. It's not as though the taxpayer is actually paying for part of their fuel costs.


----------



## gfresh (28 January 2009)

> http://business.theage.com.au/business/strathfield-calls-in-administrators-20090128-7rcx.html
> 
> "After due consideration of the company's recent performance ... and the continued negative and worsening retail outlook for at least the first half of the 2009 calendar year, and in particular the significant deterioration of the company's working capital position and funding requirements going forward that have emerged following poor Christmas trading figures, the board has resolved to take decisive steps to restructure the Strathfield Group,'' the company said.
> 
> The Strathfield board has appointed Brian Silvia and Andrew Cummins of BRI Ferrier as voluntary administrators.




There goes another household name.. Lot of stores around the country, no doubt the restructure will result in many of these stores being closed down in the long-run.


----------



## maffu (28 January 2009)

I am living quite 'poor' at the moment after 3 months overseas and myself and my partner are struggling to get work.
Ill be back at uni to further my qualifications this year and will get the $115 a week from the government, so for me that is plenty to live off. 

After travelling to some of the poorer places of the world in the last 3 months, I feel incredibly grateful to be getting my $115 a week. Which is 100x more then alot of people i just saw earn.
No matter how bad it gets over the next few years, at least people in Australia won't go hungry or sick without medical care.


----------



## prawn_86 (28 January 2009)

maffu said:


> I am living quite 'poor' at the moment after 3 months overseas and myself and my partner are struggling to get work.
> Ill be back at uni to further my qualifications this year and will get the $115 a week from the government, so for me that is plenty to live off.
> 
> After travelling to some of the poorer places of the world in the last 3 months, I feel incredibly grateful to be getting my $115 a week. Which is 100x more then alot of people i just saw earn.
> No matter how bad it gets over the next few years, at least people in Australia won't go hungry or sick without medical care.




While i totally agree with your sentiment re: overseas conditions how can you live off $115 pw? Either your not paying rent or your house is already paid off (even still you have rates and fee's etc)...


----------



## Julia (28 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> While i totally agree with your sentiment re: overseas conditions how can you live off $115 pw? Either your not paying rent or your house is already paid off (even still you have rates and fee's etc)...



I'd like to know this too.  $115 p.w.!  My rates alone are much more than that.
Then what about electricity, insurances, water, vehicle expenses, food etc?
Maybe living with parents and paying no board?


----------



## maffu (29 January 2009)

Yes, sorry I should have specified. While I go back studying I am at home so its $115 without rent. 

For those studying that are out of home the government pay rent assistance and double the youth allowance and it works out about the same living off $100-115 a week after rent if rent is $130-$150. Lots of students do manage to do it, though its not a very glamourous life, and one many will have to face this year with many of the casual retail and hospitality jobs that students normally work being laid off.


----------



## MrBurns (29 January 2009)

Check this out - the mind boggles.....no wonder world leaders are panicking.




> 51m jobs could disappear in 2009: UN
> 
> 
> Up to 51 million jobs worldwide could disappear by the end of this year as a result of the economic slowdown that has turned into a global employment crisis, a United Nations agency said.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/29/2476811.htm


----------



## numbercruncher (29 January 2009)

> Up to 51 million jobs worldwide could disappear by the end of this year





Theyve grossly underestimated everything so far ..... Id double that figure atleast ..


----------



## prawn_86 (29 January 2009)

maffu said:


> Yes, sorry I should have specified. While I go back studying I am at home so its $115 without rent.
> 
> For those studying that are out of home the government pay rent assistance and double the youth allowance and it works out about the same living off $100-115 a week after rent if rent is $130-$150. Lots of students do manage to do it, though its not a very glamourous life, and one many will have to face this year with many of the casual retail and hospitality jobs that students normally work being laid off.




Trust me, even with rent assistance its not enough to live off. Sure rent for 130 a week, leaves you with 130, but then you need to pay for food and utilities. My centrelink covers all my weekly bills and thats it.

If you had to rely on it to also pay for textbooks, learning resources etc etc you couldnt do it, and thats assuming you will never go out and spend a cent on alcohol or entertainment of any form.

Perhaps you should move out of home and try... 



MrBurns said:


> Check this out - the mind boggles.....no wonder world leaders are panicking.




Yep, us upcoming grads love news like that...


----------



## Aussiejeff (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Trust me, even with rent assistance its not enough to live off. Sure rent for 130 a week, leaves you with 130, but then you need to pay for food and utilities. My centrelink covers all my weekly bills and thats it.
> 
> If you had to rely on it to also pay for textbooks, learning resources etc etc you couldnt do it, and thats assuming you will never go out and spend a cent on alcohol or entertainment of any form.
> 
> ...




Salvation is coming your way.

The Messiah KRudd will WANT YOU to join his soon to be created Volunteer Corps.

You can pick up roadside garbage to help pay for your fees. 

That should bring a smile to your dial.


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Trust me, even with rent assistance its not enough to live off. Sure rent for 130 a week, leaves you with 130, but then you need to pay for food and utilities. My centrelink covers all my weekly bills and thats it.
> 
> If you had to rely on it to also pay for textbooks, learning resources etc etc you couldnt do it, and thats assuming you will never go out and spend a cent on alcohol or entertainment of any form.
> 
> ...




Smell of an oily rag mate by the sounds of things.
Dont envy you, been there done that. 
3 Part-time jobs always on the go (usually laboring) and a 5 year double degree just to pay for student union fees, textbooks, rent, utilities, clothes, canned food and HECS! 
Student life sucks ****, but Im sure your persistance will pay off!


----------



## prawn_86 (29 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> Salvation is coming your way.
> 
> The Messiah KRudd will WANT YOU to join his soon to be created Volunteer Corps.
> 
> ...




**** that. I already donate 10% of my disposable income to charity and do other volunteer work.

I plan on leaving Aus so i dont have to repay my HECS, so i dont even look on that as a debt. If the older generation can burden us with debt i dont see why i cant do the same


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> **** that. I already donate 10% of my disposable income to charity and do other volunteer work.
> 
> I plan on leaving Aus so i dont have to repay my HECS, so i dont even look on that as a debt. If the older generation can burden us with debt i dont see why i cant do the same




Is the volunteer work obligatory (ie. mutual obligation) or do you just do it off your own bat?


----------



## prawn_86 (29 January 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Is the volunteer work obligatory (ie. mutual obligation) or do you just do it off your own bat?




Well of course it goes on the resume, but thats not why i do it. I do it to help out and to learn new things


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Well of course it goes on the resume, but thats not why i do it. I do it to help out and to learn new things




It should help you find gainful employment. I did some volunteer work with community organisations while at Uni. Some employers wanted to find out more about it and what was learned from the experience.

Can only be a plus!


----------



## MrBurns (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Yep, us upcoming grads love news like that...




Think of something you're passionate about and start a business in it, that way you'll always be motivated, better than the competition who only do it for a job, you cant get the sack and you can controll all your expenses and keep all the income for yourself.


----------



## prawn_86 (29 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Think of something you're passionate about and start a business in it, that way you'll always be motivated, better than the competition who only do it for a job, you cant get the sack and you can controll all your expenses and keep all the income for yourself.




Have already done that with the travel forum, but thats not likely to make money.

Im passionate about stocks and finance, hence why i need a job to be able to build up sufficient capital


----------



## MrBurns (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Have already done that with the travel forum, but thats not likely to make money.




You should incorporate travel listings with the forum, places to stay etc

Thats a crowded market but if the site is optimised sufficiently and you kick in with a few Google adwords, when the traffic starts to flow you can start charging.


----------



## MrBurns (29 January 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Im passionate about stocks and finance, hence why i need a job to be able to build up sufficient capital




Think of something in that line *that would be of interest to you *on the net and do it, then if the traffic increases start charging for ads.

If it's of interest to you it will be to others in that industry.


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 February 2009)

*Sigh* Well, the rot unsurprisingly continues... contrary to flaky ABS employment figures. It's time to add a few more poor Ozzie souls to the scrapheap...



> 400 stood down at car parts factory.



http://www.theage.com.au/national/400-stood-down-at-car-parts-factory-20090216-899p.html



> MORE than 300 jobs will be lost when the world's largest nickel producer, Russia's Norilsk Nickel, suspends its two nickel operations in Western Australia.



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25066071-5005961,00.html

Next??


----------



## Aussiejeff (18 February 2009)

Should have guessed...

Virgin Blue to cut 400 jobs and 5 jets.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25069395-5005961,00.html

Next?


----------



## Aussiejeff (18 February 2009)

This couldn't possibly happen here, could it? 



> CALIFORNIA, which is on the brink of running out of cash, will notify 20,000 state workers today that their jobs may be eliminated, a spokesman for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said.



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25071807-5005961,00.html

Then again.... we ARE in "uncharted" waters.


----------



## gfresh (18 February 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> Next?




CSR also to lay off 539.. 



> Building products and sugar maker CSR Ltd has axed 539 jobs and cut its full year profit guidance by up to 20 per cent owing to a faster than expected deterioration in Australian and New Zealand building markets and a drop in aluminium prices.




http://www.businessspectator.com.au...vises-guidance-$pd20090218-PCTYW?OpenDocument

also Fosters in their wine review report flagged 300 positions to go, and divestment of some of their non-performing wineries (which may indirectly create job losses).. although some may not be in Australia. Didn't receive much coverage though. 



> Overall it is expected that approximately 300 further positions will be made redundant, some during F09 and others as systems and process change permit




Next?


----------



## juw177 (18 February 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> This couldn't possibly happen here, could it?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25071807-5005961,00.html
> 
> Then again.... we ARE in "uncharted" waters.







> CALIFORNIA, which is on the brink of running out of cash, will notify 20,000 state workers today that their jobs may be eliminated, a spokesman for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said.




You are terminated!


----------



## Aussiejeff (19 February 2009)

juw177 said:


> You are terminated!




They'll be baaaack!!?? (at the dole queue)....


----------



## Aussiejeff (19 February 2009)

I'd be mighty surprised if GMH OZ don't announce job losses v.soon, based on the media reports following the US parent company announcing it was slashing around 26,000 or so "worldwide" jobs.



aj


----------



## Glen48 (19 February 2009)

CitiBank 72,000


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 February 2009)

Yesterday it was in the local papers (Tasmania) that:

30 gone at Rio Tinto Bell Bay (aluminium)

The Burnie and Wesley Vale paper mills are both under serious threat of outright closure, their future to be determined in a couple of months. There are hundreds of workers between the two mills.

Incat has absolutely no orders once current ships are finished. I'm not sure of the exact number, but Incat is one of the largest employers in the state. Used to be over 1000 people there, not sure how many there are now but it's less.

And the zinc works has told all 250 contractors on site that there will be no more work. There will be no job losses for company employees however, it's only contractors at this stage which implies they are cancelling all work other than simply running the place "as is". This place is the state's largest single exporter and by far the largest factory of any type in Hobart.

All that just yesterday in Tas and it adds up to well over 1000 jobs, a rather significant loss given the state's relatively small population. And they are all big companies - I doubt there would be anyone in the entire state who doesn't know someone who has worked for one of them or has worked there themselves. 

Also I heard yesterday about a consulting firm laying off about 20 staff, that one wasn't in the paper however. 

And today the headline is about job losses in the state public service. Not sure of the number, but it seems to be a case of no vacancies will be filled so numbers will steadily dwindle. So I'd say quite a lot of jobs to go there too.

Not looking good...


----------



## Trembling Hand (20 February 2009)

Dear Employees,
Due to the current financial situation caused by the slowdown of economy, Management has decided to implement a scheme   to put workers of 40 years of age and above on early retirement. This scheme will be known as RAPE (Retire Aged People Early). 

Persons selected to be RAPED can apply to management to be eligible for the SHAFT scheme (Special Help After Forced  Termination) . Persons who have been RAPED and SHAFTED will be reviewed under the SCREW programme (Scheme Covering Retired Early Workers). A person may be RAPED once, SHAFTED twice and SCREWED as many times as Management deems appropriate. 

Persons who have been RAPED can only get AIDS (Additional Income for Dependants & Spouse) or HERPES (Half Earnings for  Retired Personnel Early Severance). Obviously persons who have AIDS or HERPES will not be SHAFTED or SCREWED any further by Management. 

Persons who are not RAPED and are staying on will receive as much **** (Special High Intensity Training) as possible  Management has always taken immense pride on the amount of **** it gives employees. Should you feel that you do not receive enough ****,  please bring it to the attention of your Supervisor. 

They have been trained to give you all the **** you can handle.

Sincerely,
The Management


----------



## Aussiejeff (20 February 2009)

Great Southern (GTP) yesterday announced 138 jobs (or 30%) of its workforce had been canned.

Next?


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 February 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> Next?



More jobs going in Tas...

Gunns is temporarily shutting the Triabunna, Hampshire and Bell Bay mills for a while to reduce production which has been piling up. Bottom line is they can't sell the wood due to lack of demand so there's no point continuing production until the situation changes. 

ACL is moving to a 4 day work week because of a plunge in sales. ACL being the only Australian automotive bearing manufacturer so it's an indicator of what's happening in the auto industry.

Delta Hydraulics has cut 23 jobs from their plant.


----------



## noirua (20 February 2009)

Job losses are likely to build up during the year inline with Europe and the United States.  GM having announced 47,000 redundancies in America alone with further announcements to follow in Canada and Europe. 
CSR closed their Viridian glass plant in Geelong and Laverton that makes car windows and windscreens.


----------



## Aussiejeff (25 February 2009)

> Pacific Brands posts loss, *will cut [size=+1]1850[/size] jobs*



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25104222-5005961,00.html

God, NO!

Not the Rio & Jockey underdaks!

Now what am I gunna wear on me head???


----------



## numbercruncher (25 February 2009)

And it only snowballs .....



> 10,000 jobs to go as resources boom stutters
> 25/02/2009 9:00:00 AM
> By Stuart Fagg, ninemsn Money
> 
> ...




http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=756881


Navy might finally get enough folks applying to staff those submarines eh ?


----------



## Aussiejeff (25 February 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> And it only snowballs .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nope. All our un-employed will be shipped to the US to join in BO's Grande Economic Reconstruction kicking of soon this year.

Don'cha know the recession is all but over according to BenWankee?


----------



## Aussiejeff (25 February 2009)

Yeah. It gets worse.

Not just 1,850 sacked now.

But also total closure by 2010.

Crap. I suppose I can always try pantyhose. 

http://business.theage.com.au/busin...-loss-set-to-axe-1850-jobs-20090225-8h6x.html

That 7% unemployment-by-this-time-next-year target is looming faster every day now. Might be a tad conservative?


----------



## gfresh (25 February 2009)

Well for every formal layoff there is a lot going down the path of "reduced hours/take an extended holiday", so won't even show up for quite a few months yet.. that period can't last that long, before they realise the business is still going to go under and they all get laid off completely. There were a couple of examples on the 7:30 Report last week.

Skilled vacancies in newspapers down 50% from a year ago, 22.2% fall in February alone!

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...ancies-fall-222-pct-in-Feb-PL2WH?OpenDocument

1 in 5 part-timers would like more work according to the ABS: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@...2E6CC1E17EACAB55CA2575660016933B?Opendocument




> It will spend $100 million shift the work offshore, to China - a move that comes after a $15 million Federal Government handout that was supposed to bolster Pacific Brands' local manufacturing operations.




Great work Gumbyment! now effectively paying them $15m discount to help them shift operations to China


----------



## Happy (25 February 2009)

*222 workers have been told they no longer have a job*.




> ALBURY MANUFACTURER TO SLASH 222 JOBS
> From ABC, 25 Feb. 09
> 
> Over 200 employees of the gearbox manufacturer Drivetrain Systems International have been made redundant today.
> ...


----------



## shaunQ (26 February 2009)

5% of Goodman Fielder... 



> HIGH commodity costs and a consumer shift to cheap brands have eaten into profits at Goodman Fielder which will shed 5 per cent of its staff.




http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25107433-36281,00.html


----------



## knocker (26 February 2009)

No prob. We'll just bring in some more skilled labour!! Great stuff.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 February 2009)

knocker said:


> No prob. We'll just bring in some more skilled labour!! Great stuff.





Yes - about 100k of them so we can shift another 100k Aussies onto the dole, borrow the money from the Chinese to pay their benefits and let the next generation pick up the tab ... happy days cobba ....


----------



## Aussiejeff (26 February 2009)

The *1,850* Pacific Brands jobs slashed represent only 20% of their workforce. 

That means *another 7,000 or so* to go by the end of 2010. 

I hope KRudd & GoHard are beefing up the customer service officer numbers at Centrelink! The Job Seeker queues will soon be spilling out into the streets everywhere. Funny, I seem to remember not long ago those two were chanting "JOBS, JOBS, JOBS" when it came to their plans for shielding our economy from the distant ravages of the World Financial Crisis.

Hmmmm. Maybe soup kitchens will have to be provided for the thousands of new applicants waiting in line?


----------



## Aussiejeff (26 February 2009)

..and there's more...



> * Australia's largest property developer Lend Lease said it will cut 1700 jobs over the next six months, after it posted a loss of almost $600 million for the first half.*
> 
> Lend Lease chief executive Steve McCann said the company has been targeting a head count reduction to 10,000, from 12,000, in order to cut costs as market conditions deteriorate.
> 
> ...





http://business.theage.com.au/business/lend-lease-to-cut-1700-jobs-20090226-8im1.html

20% Oz positions out of the 1,700 jobs to go = *340*.

Move along... next please...


----------



## gfresh (27 February 2009)

Go Telstra.. you're awesome 

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2009/02/27/53871_gold-coast-top-story.html



> UP TO 86 Gold Coast telecommunications workers will lose their jobs as Telstra prepares to close the city's only inbound customer call centre.
> 
> Shocked staff were given the bad news after lunch yesterday and told their jobs would become redundant from June 1.
> 
> ...


----------



## Timmy (27 February 2009)

Sorry this is off topic, but here goes:

From a story in The Age.

"Woolworths will have another 7000 workers on its payroll by June"

"Chief executive officer Michael Luscombe said the retailer had created 9000 jobs in the half-year and expected to create a further 7000 positions by the end of June."

ps. Nothing to disclose.


----------



## shaunQ (27 February 2009)

Timmy said:


> Sorry this is off topic, but here goes:




I don't think its off topic. You could create another thread, Australian Job Creations, but I guess it would be pretty empty. Thats a lot of positions, although presumably most low paid.


----------



## MR. (27 February 2009)

Timmy said:


> Sorry this is off topic, but here goes:
> 
> From a story in The Age.
> 
> ...




Not really off topic. I too thought of posting similar "good news".  Nothing really stood out though. However 7000 + 9000 jobs created stands out!  

Hope they're not just for part-time juniors!   ???


----------



## shaunQ (28 February 2009)

Just came across this, which I think might have been missed...



> Mining services company Brierty says up to 100 jobs could be on the line after Fortescue Metals Group suddenly terminated a contract six months early.




http://www.wabusinessnews.com.au/lo...story/1/70577/Brierty-takes-12m-hit-from-FMG-


----------



## Aussiejeff (28 February 2009)

MR. said:


> Not really off topic. I too thought of posting similar "good news".  Nothing really stood out though. However 7000 + 9000 jobs created stands out!
> 
> Hope they're not just for part-time juniors!   ???




IF you read the fine print, Woolies CEO says the job creation IS conditional on forward growth and sales remaining strong. 

So, there is an IF factor here. The estimated new jobs are not set in concrete by any means, whereas the rapidly increasing number of job cuts to date have been. 


aj


----------



## MR. (1 March 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> IF you read the fine print, Woolies CEO says the job creation IS conditional on forward growth and sales remaining strong.




Is correct.......  (always read the fine print)  good publicity!


Couldn't find above .........  Boart Longyear also sacks 2000.


----------



## Timmy (1 March 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> IF you read the fine print, Woolies CEO says the job creation IS conditional on forward growth and sales remaining strong.




Ummm.... and don't forget to read the obvious ... 9000 already created in the half-year.


----------



## dalek (1 March 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> IF you read the fine print, Woolies CEO says the job creation IS conditional on forward growth and sales remaining strong.
> 
> So, there is an IF factor here. The estimated new jobs are not set in concrete by any means, whereas the rapidly increasing number of job cuts to date have been.
> 
> ...




*Everything* in life is conditional, would you expect employment to go up if sales go down ?
why can't this just be accepted for what it is, ....a positive outcome.
Transient or not.
It's OK to have good news.......really.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 March 2009)

MR. said:


> Hope they're not just for part-time juniors!   ???



Sadly, we're in the situation now where it's very much a case of anything being better than nothing. At least it's a job.

What I'm wondering though is if the projected sales growth is real growth in overall retail sales or is it simply a case of Woolworths expecting to take market share from competitors? Nothing wrong with competition, but if that's what's driving the sales and job creation then it stands to reason that competitors will be laying off staff as their sales decline.


----------



## gooner (1 March 2009)

I lost my job recently, but can't get Newstart allowance as I have more than the asset cut off point (>$250,000, I think). My neighbour is in the same position (yes both were bankers). Thus neither of us are counted in the unemployment figures but both of us are looking for jobs.

Interesting conundrum - should I spend the amount I have above $250k (renovation already planned before retrenchment) so we can get Newstart and parenting payment or keep the extra cash unless I have trouble finding a job?

It's a funny thing - you could have a $20m house that you live in but as long as your other assets are less than $250k, you can still get Newstart. I own my house but only worth six figures not eight......

I'm not complaining (much) as I know lots of people are much worse off than me


----------



## tech/a (2 March 2009)

Well.
I put 2 new staff on last week.
I'm in the Building Industry.


----------



## Aussiejeff (2 March 2009)

gooner said:


> I lost my job recently, but can't get Newstart allowance as I have more than the asset cut off point (>$250,000, I think). My neighbour is in the same position (yes both were bankers). Thus neither of us are counted in the unemployment figures but both of us are looking for jobs.
> 
> Interesting conundrum - should I spend the amount I have above $250k (renovation already planned before retrenchment) so we can get Newstart and parenting payment or keep the extra cash unless I have trouble finding a job?
> 
> ...




Hmmm. Perhaps there should be a cap on PPOR asset value as well? Say, $750,000 (but not assessable for deemed income purposes)? Then again, how is one going to assess the value of one's PPOR with regard to Newstart eligibility? A formal "valuation" certificate? Could be messy!

Still, the current situation that you describe where the gummint can end up having 1,000's of Centrelink multi-millionaire ex-bankers and execs claiming Newstart until they can downsize out of their cash gobbling Mcmansions strikes me as being a tad ridiculous.

Too hard basket I guess, so the status-quo will prolly persist....


aj


----------



## gooner (2 March 2009)

Interestingly the $250,000 includes your car and household possessions, so not sure how  you go valuing the household possessions. With PPOR, one option would be to use the land value used by council for rating purposess. Whilst lower than the house price as these valuations are always on the low side this would provide a starting point for parity. If someone has accumulated $1m which they have put into shares why should they be teated different from someone who has put $1m into property and live in it.


----------



## GumbyLearner (4 March 2009)

Don't you just love the beauty of marketing? 

*Dominos takes on white collar workers*

http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=759719

Out of work professionals are quitting the grim corporate scene to “sell more pizzas, have more fun” as pizza deliverers for Dominos. 

While the pizza chain traditionally takes on a mix of second jobbers and university students as pizza deliverers, Dominos' boss told ninemsn that the downturn in the economy has seen white collar workers apply for jobs delivering pizzas. 

Dominos has already filled 1,500 positions and is recruiting a further 2,500 workers to join its 14,000 strong workforce in Australia.


----------



## Aussiejeff (4 March 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Don't you just love the beauty of marketing?
> 
> *Dominos takes on white collar workers*
> 
> ...




I'm surprised Krudd & Swaneee haven't jumped on this and started offering 90% rebates for all Domino's pizzas consumed in the next 12 months.

Imagine the job creation opportunities!


----------



## Stormin_Norman (4 March 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Don't you just love the beauty of marketing?
> 
> *Dominos takes on white collar workers*
> 
> ...




fast food = inferior product (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good).


----------



## xyzedarteerf (4 March 2009)

just lost two of my contracts in a matter of days...

Domino's here i come...


----------



## Bushman (5 March 2009)

It's coming - apathy giving way to unrest. I smell the 1980's again.


----------



## tommymac (5 March 2009)

gooner said:


> I lost my job recently, but can't get Newstart allowance as I have more than the asset cut off point (>$250,000, I think). My neighbour is in the same position (yes both were bankers). Thus neither of us are counted in the unemployment figures but both of us are looking for jobs.
> 
> Interesting conundrum - should I spend the amount I have above $250k (renovation already planned before retrenchment) so we can get Newstart and parenting payment or keep the extra cash unless I have trouble finding a job?
> 
> ...




It really is a terrible system. I lost my job in January, and while I don't have $250K in assets (yet) I can't get Newstart payments until April due to the liquid assets test. 

Although if I had spent all my money and not saved or invested it, I would have received Newstart in one week. As my Dad said to me, Centrelink helps the people who do the wrong thing, while people who do what is right get penalised.

Oh well.


----------



## MrBurns (5 March 2009)

tommymac said:


> It really is a terrible system. I lost my job in January, and while I don't have $250K in assets (yet) I can't get Newstart payments until April due to the liquid assets test.
> 
> Although if I had spent all my money and not saved or invested it, I would have received Newstart in one week. As my Dad said to me, Centrelink helps the people who do the wrong thing, while people who do what is right get penalised.
> 
> Oh well.




Not fair, don't know what can be done about that except cheat, you have right on your side so just find a way round it, the rules are so bad they should be broken. 

Good luck.


----------



## tommymac (5 March 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Not fair, don't know what can be done about that except cheat, you have right on your side so just find a way round it, the rules are so bad they should be broken.
> 
> Good luck.




Easier to find another job (e.g. Woolies), which I'm considering.


----------



## nomore4s (5 March 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Don't you just love the beauty of marketing?
> 
> *Dominos takes on white collar workers*
> 
> ...




The problem with this is that people are going to be taking substantial paycuts to stay employed, especially the workers losing jobs in the mines. As they come back to employment in other work their earning capacity will be greatly decreased.

So not only will you have higher unemployment but also a % of the work force earning less money.


----------



## Trevor_S (5 March 2009)

gooner said:


> I lost my job recently, but can't get Newstart allowance as I have more than the asset cut off point (>$250,000, I think). My neighbour is in the same position (yes both were bankers). Thus neither of us are counted in the unemployment figures but both of us are looking for jobs.




The ABS doesn't use Newstart figures to calculate unemployment.

Spend all your savings and "assets" buying and running a business ?  If that goes down the tubes at least then you will be able to apply for Newstart.


----------



## Aussiejeff (6 March 2009)

The daily toll continues unabated....


> *
> BANK of Queensland has announced it intends to cut 150 jobs.*
> 
> The cuts, which make up about 10 per cent of the Bank of Queensland workforce, come as part of an internal review to streamline the business.
> ...



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25147095-5005961,00.html


Next please...


----------



## ojm (6 March 2009)

I work at Holden. The feeling around here is pretty gloomy.

Lucky, I'm a student on a one-year placement, so I'm *pretty* safe. The government pays a lot of my wage apparently, that's why they like hiring us. 

But it's going to be interesting, with what happens to GM in the US of A.


----------



## Aussiejeff (6 March 2009)

ojm said:


> I work at Holden. The feeling around here is pretty gloomy.
> 
> Lucky, I'm a student on a one-year placement, so I'm *pretty* safe. The government pays a lot of my wage apparently, that's why they like hiring us.
> 
> But it's going to be interesting, with what happens to GM in the US of A.




Lucky you don't work in optics, mate!



> *AN ADELAIDE optical firm laying off 95 workers a fortnight after receiving Government funding makes a mockery of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's commitment to job security, the Federal opposition says.*
> 
> Carl Zeiss Vision yesterday said about 95 jobs would go from its Lonsdale Plant by the end of 2009 and the work would be sent to China.
> 
> The announcement came just over a fortnight since the company was given $1 million in innovation funding from the state and Federal Governments.



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25147456-5005961,00.html

Here we go again.

Will Messiah KRudd demand that money back too? Who else is fudging? C'mon you cowards. SHOW YOURSELVES!!


----------



## Glen48 (6 March 2009)

Is this history in the making GM on their death bed and be luck to last until the end of the Month?.
AIG shares at 35 c and Citibank dying


----------



## gfresh (12 March 2009)

Feburary Employment figures out a few mins ago.. 

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subs...4CA257576001253ED&&Feb 2009&12.03.2009&Latest

+0.4 increase in seasonally adjusted unemployment to 5.2% - that's 47,100 new people looking for work in February alone  At this rate we'll be over 7% before the end of the year  

Note the 95% confidence interval is anywhere from +0% to 0.8%, e.g. anywhere from 4.8 to 5.6% !


----------



## investorpaul (12 March 2009)

Thats alot of people, unfortunately their hopes of finding a new job are reducing daily


----------



## Aussiejeff (13 March 2009)

gfresh said:


> Feburary Employment figures out a few mins ago..
> 
> http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subs...4CA257576001253ED&&Feb 2009&12.03.2009&Latest
> 
> ...




The reliance by the gummint & media on the flaky ABS "Unemployment" stats is a flamin' joke. :angry:

Ferchrisakes, the only "employment" figure that should matter or be quoted is *TOTAL HOURS WORKED*. 

Relying on the ABS formula to determine the effect of "unemployment" on our economy is just plain stoopid. 

For example, if 100% of the remaining full time workers in Oz all had their working hours cut by say, 25% (to reduce costs to businesses), the actual effect of the resultant plunge in disposable income on the economy and consumer demand would be catastrophic - but hey, the ABS stats would show the unemployment rate would STAY EXACTLY THE SAME because they are all still "employed"! (Remember, according to the ABS you only have to work 1 hour or more to be technically "employed", thus not being counted in the "official" unemployment stats!!)

It's the TOTAL HOURS WORKED by all Australians in the data sampling period that really matters as far as the effect on the economy is concerned. 

But I guess the gummint is either (a) too thick to realise that, or (b) think they are clever by hiding the real effect of significantly reduced total working hours behind the ABS "unemployment" smokescreen.

I suspect the latter but prefer the former.... idiots.  

The media is culpable for no longer being able to think for themselves and rely on being spoon-fed baby pap by gummint media secretarys. 

Idiots. 

Grrrr.


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 March 2009)

New report on Victorian job vulnerability...



> *VAST swathes of Victoria's mortgage belt are vulnerable to rapidly increasing unemployment and disadvantage as the financial crisis hits the job market.*
> 
> An index of job vulnerability to be released today by the Centre of Full Employment and Equity at Newcastle University finds that newer suburbs, including Narre Warren and Pakenham, are set to join older "battler" suburbs in a pattern of disadvantage that will spread further than in previous recessions.






> The centre expects Australia's unemployment rate *to soar above 10 per cent if the global recession lasts the rest of the year*, with total "underutilisation" rising to 20 per cent.
> 
> Under-utilisation also counts people who would like more work than they have. The centre believes 1.2 million Australians are under-utilised. It has proposed an "Employment Guarantee" under which the government commits to pay the minimum wage to anyone willing to work. "We would abolish the dole," Dr Mitchell said. "Anyone who wants pay would have to work for it."




http://www.theage.com.au/national/mortgagebelt-jobs-in-peril-20090316-9023.html


----------



## gfresh (17 March 2009)

Just found out 6 people at my work, or approximately 40% are to be laid off in the next 2 weeks  It's real out there.


----------



## MR. (1 April 2009)

Ahhhh.... Technology! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WwPHeM5ltI


----------



## prawn_86 (8 April 2009)

RIO cutting more jobs.

Big 4 banks also putting more jobs on the cutting block


----------



## MrBurns (8 April 2009)

MR. said:


> Ahhhh.... Technology!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WwPHeM5ltI




A company jointly owned by Bob Brown and Peter Garrett


----------



## Aussiejeff (10 April 2009)

Kleenmaid kitchens & appliances down the gurgler.

150 employees face the chop.

AU$27Million of customer's deposits wiped out. 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25316646-643,00.html


----------



## MrBurns (10 April 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> Kleenmaid kitchens & appliances down the gurgler.
> 
> 150 employees face the chop.
> 
> ...




Great, I just paid for an extended warranty for my dishwasher................


----------



## gav (10 April 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Great, I just paid for an extended warranty for my dishwasher................




Sounds like u need a wife Mr Burns... :

(I apologise if that offends anyone)


----------



## MrBurns (10 April 2009)

Just parted with one don't think I'll go again.........


----------



## numbercruncher (5 June 2012)

Everyday nearly seems to be hundreds of job losses ....



> QR National will slash more than 500 jobs from its workforce as part of a major restructuring and cost drive.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qr-national-poised-for-major-job-cuts/story-e6freoof-1226383939547



> UP to 200 jobs could be slashed from the Box Hill Institute of TAFE as a result of state government funding cuts.




http://www.melbourneweeklyeastern.com.au/news/local/news/general/box-hill-tafe-could-shed-200-jobs/2580470.aspx



> Nearly 10,000 manufacturing and construction jobs were lost in outer western Melbourne in the 12 months to February 2012, plus thousands more in the professional services and retail sectors.




http://brimbank-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/government-only-hope-for-western-suburbs-job-losses/



> One of Australia's largest rural water authorities has signalled its intention to cut up to 200 staff.
> Goulburn-Murray Water in northern Victoria is in the process of modernising almost its entire irrigation system.




http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201206/s3517414.htm

We have an conomy in worse shape than the official figures suggest ...


----------



## young-gun (5 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> We have an conomy in worse shape than the official figures suggest ...




just standard these days isn't it? fudge the figures and smile?


----------



## Aussiejeff (6 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> just standard these days isn't it? *fudge the figures and smile?*




Great Philosopher of Politics once say "Yes We Can".... 

Seriously, a truly responsible government would keep the public fully informed of the true employment/underemployment situation. The more they try to hide the "true situation" in a fog of spin, the more respect they lose.

What do they think we are? Idiots? 

Next election - bring it on!

Next election after that - bring it on!

etc...


----------



## jersey10 (6 June 2012)

Aussiejeff said:


> The more they try to hide the "true situation" in a fog of spin, the more respect they lose.
> etc...




Quite the opposite.  Why else would they do it?


----------



## joea (6 June 2012)

Aussiejeff said:


> Great Philosopher of Politics once say "Yes We Can"....
> 
> Seriously, a truly responsible government would keep the public fully informed of the true employment/underemployment situation. The more they try to hide the "true situation" in a fog of spin, the more respect they lose.
> etc...




So would any of you believe the Roy Morgan Polls.?
On their site they suggest their accuracy.
The statistics would have be closer to the truth, than what the media projects.

I think there is a stint on TV that show the results of a couple of the polls  and compares them.
Not sure of the channel or the frequency.

http://www.roymorgan.com.au/

The Australian has a small piece on "The Perception of Statistics". by Ian Ewing from ACT. but I do not know how to link it to open as I subscribe.

joea


----------



## joea (6 June 2012)

With the unemployment figures, their lurks a figure of hidden unemployment.

i.e. google.... Hidden unemployment in Australia
We just have to find a 2012 update.

joea


----------



## drsmith (6 June 2012)

joea said:


> The Australian has a small piece on "The Perception of Statistics". by Ian Ewing from ACT. but I do not know how to link it to open as I subscribe.



Google search the headline under news and access the relevant link.


----------



## joea (6 June 2012)

:thankyou:







drsmith said:


> Google search the headline under news and access the relevant link.


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

Every single day I see Hundreds of more jobs losses



> Norwegian company Norsk Hydro has confirmed it will shut its aluminium smelter in the NSW Hunter Valley, resulting in more than 300 job losses





http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/a/28888-norsk-hydro-confirms-smelter-closure.html


----------



## numbercruncher (18 June 2012)

Plenty more job losses each day , not sure this lot would be cut out for the mines in a shrinking industry ? 



> Australian publisher Fairfax Media Ltd. said Monday it will shed 1,900 jobs over three years and erect pay walls for two flagship newspapers as readers increasingly move online.
> 
> The company said it's giving itself the flexibility to ditch its print operations entirely at some point in the future if that's what consumers demand.
> 
> The job cuts at the Sydney-based media empire represent almost one fifth of its 10,000 staff, spokesman Brad Hatch said.


----------



## Ves (18 June 2012)

How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?


----------



## young-gun (19 June 2012)

Ves said:


> How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?




i think you would need to spend very little time looking for negative news. pick your site, copy and paste.


----------



## numbercruncher (19 June 2012)

Ves said:


> How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?




I dont have a great deal of free time at the moment -- so the short answer is , not much !


----------



## prawn_86 (19 June 2012)

Queensland came out today and said that up to 20,000 public servants could face the axe...


----------



## Timmy (19 June 2012)

Ves said:


> How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?




The negative stuff is really easy to find & readily accessible. 
Negativity sells & attracts attention (page clicks etc.).
ACA & TT etc. built franchises around it.
Misery loves company.

Takes a bit more digging and a bit more thinking to get beyond the easy, popular, consensus whining. 
But worth it.
Now, if you'll excuse me I have to.... :couch


----------



## numbercruncher (19 June 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> Queensland came out today and said that up to 20,000 public servants could face the axe...




Yes we are talking serious numbers hey ! Plenty of the Ostrich crew still heads in ground saying this is Auuustraalia mate we is good aye' ..... we is different fulla' .....




> Qld 'can't afford 20,000 public servants'11:17 AEST Tue Jun 19 2012
> 
> Queensland Premier Campbell Newman says the state is paying for 20,000 public servants the taxpayer can't afford.
> 
> Mr Newman has promised no forced redundancies as part of his cost-cutting drive, but in parliament on Tuesday he gave his strongest signal yet that permanent public servants' positions will be axed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 June 2012)

Ves said:


> How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?



No need to look for it.

Only this afternoon I had a meeting with an electrical equipment salesman from Sydney. After the meeting proper, there was a bit of casual discussion and he asked "is the economy down here (Tas) as bad as the rest?".

I don't ask for economic information. People just tell me in casual conversation whilst delivering things, after meetings and the like. With the exception of politicians, practically everyone in non-mining Australia is all too aware that things aren't that great economically.


----------



## numbercruncher (22 June 2012)

Thousands more on the scrap heap .....



> HUNDREDS of police, justice and health workers will be sacked with the Baillieu Government sneaking out details after public servants had gone home.
> 
> 
> The Government revealed plans to axe 3615 public sector jobs across 13 departments.
> ...







> EXCLUSIVE: Thousands are expected to lose their jobs in Latrobe Valley ahead of the carbon tax next month, and the city is asking state and federal governments to absorb some of the economic pain.


----------



## joea (23 June 2012)

Ves said:


> How much time do some of you guys spend searching and reading online sites for negative media on the Australian / world economy?




Bad new sells. Its freely available.
The "truth", now that what takes the time to find.!!
Then attempt to confirm it.
joea:


----------



## joea (23 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Yes we are talking serious numbers hey ! Plenty of the Ostrich crew still heads in ground saying this is Auuustraalia mate we is good aye' ..... we is different fulla' .....




Yes we are now finding out where all the jobs were created by the Labor government! State & Federal.

The real business word , calls them paper shufflers.

They are not paid by business, but by the tax payer!
Labor says they will create jobs, but never tells you who actually pays for them.

Great eh!
joea


----------



## Glen48 (23 June 2012)

8+ years of experience working on heavy industrial projects 
*Fluent in Mandarin & English (Reading, Speaking and Writing)*
Valid Australian work permits 
Experience through the installation phase of mechanical assets on the mine site (Concentrator Installation)
Desirable skills – heavy mechanical construction background, heavy lift, studies, installation, QA / QC
Gained experience working on a FIFO role 
Mechanical Bia’s (BSc Mechanical – Or Equivalent) 


Here is the good news soon we will be like USA with the Chinese buying up all our RE and companies.


----------



## numbercruncher (25 June 2012)

Another 300 on the scrap heap - not sure where all these finance type folks will find new jobs with skyrocketing layoffs ?



> PERPETUAL warned of a massive full-year profit slide, board pay cuts and 300 job losses as part of a major restructure.
> 
> Chairman Peter Scott will have his pay cut by 42 per cent, while pay for non-executive directors is to drop by an average 25 per cent, the company said today.
> 
> Perpetual expects to cut around 300 employees as part of the restructuring, including around 280 job losses incurred from the sale of its mortgage lenders unit, called Perpetual Lenders Mortgage Services. The fund manager said that the sale process was "well advanced" but provided no further details.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/financial-services/perpetual-slashes-executive-pay-amid-profit-warning/story-fn91wd6x-1226407328890


----------



## prawn_86 (10 July 2012)

Darrell Lea just filed for admistration. Up to 700 jobs at risk


----------



## Glen48 (10 July 2012)

See NAB claims things are bad as well


----------



## Auslad (10 July 2012)

This is only the beginning.

As a prediction, this time next year the unemployement rate in Australia will be the highest in recorded history, even greater than the 1929-1939 depression years.


----------



## Julia (10 July 2012)

Auslad said:


> This is only the beginning.
> 
> As a prediction, this time next year the unemployement rate in Australia will be the highest in recorded history, even greater than the 1929-1939 depression years.



Quite possible.
Auslad, to what do you attribute the current and impending increasing unemployment rate?


----------



## joea (11 July 2012)

Some stats. from Roy Morgan.

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4803/

joea


----------



## prawn_86 (12 July 2012)

Employment figures out. 27k jobs lost last month.

We all know that the unemployment rate is also skewed as anyone working >3hrs a week is calssified as employed


----------



## Julia (12 July 2012)

joea said:


> Some stats. from Roy Morgan.
> 
> http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4803/
> 
> joea



That's interesting.  Extract:


> Within the Australian workforce (12,178,000 people either employed or looking for work) ”” 2.12 million or 17.4% are unemployed or underemployed in April ”” June 2012.
> 
> Combing the three months (April ”” June 2012) shows the following:
> 
> ...




So how does the government get its frequently quoted unemployment figure of 5 point something percent?
What am I missing?


----------



## skc (12 July 2012)

Julia said:


> That's interesting.  Extract:
> 
> So how does the government get its frequently quoted unemployment figure of 5 point something percent?
> What am I missing?






> This Roy Morgan survey on Australia’s unemployment and ‘underemployed’* is based on weekly face-to-face interviews covering April ”” June 2012 with 13,308 Australians aged 14 and over.
> 
> *The ‘underemployed’ are those people who are in part-time work or consultants who are looking for more work. (Unfortunately the ABS does not measure this figure in their monthly unemployment survey.)




Most probably just different definition of the terms, plus difference in the survey methods.

E.g. With face to face interviews you need to have candidates who are readily available to be interviewed - does that skew the employment rate because those who are busy working are more likely to decline an interview?

E.g. Underemployment = consultants looking for more work. Unless the said consultant is fully flatout, I'd say most would say they'd prefer more work!


----------



## joea (12 July 2012)

Julia said:


> That's interesting.  Extract:
> 
> 
> So how does the government get its frequently quoted unemployment figure of 5 point something percent?
> What am I missing?




Julia.
If a person is unemployed but not currently actively looking for a job, then the ABS
does not put you on the unemployment list.
The ABS also equate a part time job to a full time job.
So if 10,000 full time jobs go and 10,000 part time jobs appear, then there is no 
change.
It just a lovely word of statistics we live in.

joea


----------



## young-gun (12 July 2012)

joea said:


> Julia.
> If a person is unemployed but not currently actively looking for a job, then the ABS
> does not put you on the unemployment list.
> The ABS also equate a part time job to a full time job.
> ...




Abs came out the other week stting they had missed the mark on unemployment by quite a large amount in 2010/11 I think it was. The methods used to calculate it appear to be rather flawed, and quite a few seem to be aware of the fact. So why exactly do they do it? There must be some reason they do things the way they do? Or is it simply because they are intentionally trying to make the figures look better? If they know it's not working, and the methods of calculating are absurd then why not change it so it's practical, and is a true reflection of economy?

I just don't get it.


----------



## joea (12 July 2012)

young-gun said:


> Abs came out the other week stting they had missed the mark on unemployment by quite a large amount in 2010/11 I think it was. The methods used to calculate it appear to be rather flawed, and quite a few seem to be aware of the fact. So why exactly do they do it? There must be some reason they do things the way they do? Or is it simply because they are intentionally trying to make the figures look better? If they know it's not working, and the methods of calculating are absurd then why not change it so it's practical, and is a true reflection of economy?
> 
> I just don't get it.




young-gun 
I do not get it either.
I chased up the local MP to suggest the coalition should be saying the figures are 
not correct.
I am just about sure his coffee was getting cold.
He said "statistics can be made to do what you want".
I contacted the media to "jump on it". No response.
I get Liberal newsletters. I keep sending back a message "what are you telling me for! Take control. roll the labor 
no hopers".
I have told then I will contribute when they start listening to the voter.
Well it has not "pi**ed" them off much, because I am still on the list.

joea


----------



## johenmo (12 July 2012)

joea said:


> young-gun
> I do not get it either.
> I chased up the local MP to suggest the coalition should be saying the figures are
> not correct.
> ...




Decades ago, friends of ours worked in the unemployment benefit office in WA.  There would be periodic requests to convert as many unemployed to sickness benefit etc as they could.  Then the WA Govt would state how unemployment had dropped.  I have been suspicious of the umbers spouted ever since.


----------



## Glen48 (12 July 2012)

Both parties new to falsify any figure as they can't do any thing about them.
 That's why voting won't Liberal, The  New Beaut Green and gold party won't  change any thing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 July 2012)

So far as statistics (for anything) are concerned, I apply the "sanity test" prior to believing them.

Nothing I see around me leads me to believe that unemployment is at 5% or anything close to that. 15% I could believe, maybe even 10% at a stretch, but not the "official" figures.

If unemployment were as low as government likes to claim then we wouldn't have apprentices being laid off prior to completion and there wouldn't be large numbers of people applying for entry level jobs in factories or outdoor labouring jobs etc.


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## Glen48 (12 July 2012)

When they start to publish the *employment *figure you will know times are hard.


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## numbercruncher (12 July 2012)

Surely there is no unemployment in oz if the likes of Gina has to recruit overseas ?


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## Glen48 (12 July 2012)

I saw an add for Philippine welders $42K PA, good money for here, job was location drive along Nullabor to Perth for 6 hrs turn right drive for another 5 hrs... looks like right in Gina's back yard.


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## Julia (12 July 2012)

johenmo said:


> Decades ago, friends of ours worked in the unemployment benefit office in WA.  There would be periodic requests to convert as many unemployed to sickness benefit etc as they could.  Then the WA Govt would state how unemployment had dropped.  I have been suspicious of the umbers spouted ever since.



Yes.  The same principle led to the blow out of people on Disability Support Pensions.  Essentially anyone over a particular age who had been unemployed for more than six or twelve months, was encouraged to apply for the DSP.

The whole set up seems lacking in transparency and integrity.
How unsurprising.


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## IFocus (12 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Surely there is no unemployment in oz if the likes of Gina has to recruit overseas ?





Abbott will sort that out when he culls conditions and creates uncertainty in employment.


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## Klogg (12 July 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott will sort that out when he culls conditions and creates uncertainty in employment.




You must be referring to when he is going to give employers SOME of their rights back.

Nothing worse than seeing employers afraid to hire because IR laws are so heavily skewed against them


----------



## joea (13 July 2012)

Klogg said:


> You must be referring to when he is going to give employers SOME of their rights back.
> 
> Nothing worse than seeing employers afraid to hire because IR laws are so heavily skewed against them




+1
joea


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## prawn_86 (13 July 2012)

Any further political posts will be removed, we have enough threads about politics for policies to be discussed there.

Back on topic:
MYER announced yesterday they are cutting 100 jobs


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## prawn_86 (16 July 2012)

Another 100 jobs gone in SA at ADCIV


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## ROE (16 July 2012)

Klogg said:


> You must be referring to when he is going to give employers SOME of their rights back.
> 
> Nothing worse than seeing employers afraid to hire because IR laws are so heavily skewed against them




I prefer a job with tough conditions than no job at all 
When the union keep taking and and not giving and don't give too much consideration to 
their business employer will have a few choices.

1. Start Sacking people
2. Stop employing people.

See Qantas for example, they will continue the sack then these guys will have all the conditions
they want at home on the couch.

I am for unions and enterprise bargaining but it has to be reasonable not you make xxx profit we want xxx amount.
do these guys put their capital on the line? do they chip in money when the business lose money?


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## Klogg (16 July 2012)

ROE said:


> Do these guys put their capital on the line? do they chip in money when the business lose money?




And this is the exact problem I have with it all - employees take ZERO risk, yet want all the rewards that the companies/shareholders should be getting.

If I put 1mil up to form a company and get a 20% return on my money, then my employees complain about record profits, I'd be wanting to bring in foreign workers to take their jobs too!


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## Eager (16 July 2012)

Klogg said:


> And this is the exact problem I have with it all - employees take ZERO risk,



Except when they apply for a loan, or have a family, or take some leave, or get genuinely sick or injured etc. Their lives typically exist in 3-year blocks if they are lucky to be on an EBA, or week-to-week if not. Not to mention the burgeoning proportion of casuals (maximum flexibility to the employer only) who don't even know from one week to the next if they will earn any money at all. How can anyone make any sort of financial commitments under that scenario? it is a huge risk if they do!

Verrrry hard for any employee to plan for the future when the employer won't take the risk of giving him one.


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## prawn_86 (17 July 2012)

440 jobs set to go at Ford:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-17/ford-cuts-over-400-jobs/4135628

Despite receiving plenty of (wasted) taxpayer funds. Just goes to show why it is pointless transferring wealth from taxpayers to private companies


----------



## Klogg (17 July 2012)

Eager said:


> Except when they apply for a loan, or have a family, or take some leave, or get genuinely sick or injured etc. Their lives typically exist in 3-year blocks if they are lucky to be on an EBA, or week-to-week if not. Not to mention the burgeoning proportion of casuals (maximum flexibility to the employer only) who don't even know from one week to the next if they will earn any money at all. How can anyone make any sort of financial commitments under that scenario? it is a huge risk if they do!
> 
> Verrrry hard for any employee to plan for the future when the employer won't take the risk of giving him one.




As an employee, zero risk. Outside of work, different story.

I'm an IT contractor, I work on 3month rolling contracts. I have a mortgage, don't get paid for sick or annual leave. I have the correct money aside and insurances in place if any such thing should happen to me.

Would you rather that people find it had to make financial commitments, or restrict the employer and ultimately lead to people not having the option to make financial commitments at all?


----------



## Eager (17 July 2012)

Klogg said:


> Would you rather that people find it had to make financial commitments, or restrict the employer and ultimately lead to people not having the option to make financial commitments at all?



Employee takes a risk: Has a job, takes out a loan, loses his job, spends the rest of his life living in a caravan park.

Employer takes a risk: Buys a job, business goes bad, winds up business and changes its name and ABN, carries on unimpeded.


----------



## Eager (17 July 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> 440 jobs set to go at Ford:
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-17/ford-cuts-over-400-jobs/4135628
> 
> Despite receiving plenty of (wasted) taxpayer funds. Just goes to show why it is pointless transferring wealth from taxpayers to private companies



It's all your fault, because you preferred to buy a foreign built car instead of a Falcon or Territory.


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## FxTrader (17 July 2012)

Eager said:


> It's all your fault, because you preferred to buy a foreign built car instead of a Falcon or Territory.




Actually, Territory sales have been holding up quite well over the last two quarters.  Falcon competes (and not very well) in the fastest declining automobile category, large sedans.  I might add that those "foreign built cars" are the best sellers for Ford and Holden into the retail market.  The sad reality is that the cost of production is simply to high in Australia and the local industry is not building the cars most people want to buy now - smaller, very fuel efficient cars.

As for the virtues of being an IT contractor on 3 month rolling contracts, I have been on that roller coaster myself and it sucks.  Offer a good permanent position with a financially sound company at a decent salary and most of the IT contractors I know will accept it the same day its offered.  The growing casualization of the workforce is a sign of a weakening domestic economy and has little to offer most workers, the vast majority of whom prefer a stable job that can offer them the prospect of building a career.


----------



## Eager (17 July 2012)

FxTrader said:


> and the local industry is not building the cars most people want to buy now - smaller, very fuel efficient cars.



I know, I know, but it annoys the crap out of me. The difference between a Mazda 3 and a Falcon or Commodore in fuel costs is no more than a handful of dollars every week, but people have this perception of large = uneconomical. Yet, they buy a Kluger instead of a Territory for their "main" car, which is more thirsty! 

It is the same with diesel fuelled cars - and I've spoken about this before, here or elsewhere - people have this perception of economical motoring, but they ignore the additional purchase price, the higher fuel costs, and the higher servicing costs. Fools!

Why the media does not promote the local car manufacturing industry is beyond me.


----------



## Glen48 (17 July 2012)

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...-what-the-rest-of-america-will-look-like-soon

Here what happens to a country when industry pulls out and companies go broke and job loses sky rocket.


----------



## Julia (17 July 2012)

Eager said:


> I know, I know, but it annoys the crap out of me. The difference between a Mazda 3 and a Falcon or Commodore in fuel costs is no more than a handful of dollars every week, but people have this perception of large = uneconomical.



They may be buying the Mazda out of simple preference, not necessarily to do with fuel consumption.



> Fools!



Of course they are.  Just because they happen to disagree with you.



> Why the media does not promote the local car manufacturing industry is beyond me.



Why should the media do any such thing?  Any item should be able to stand on its merits without either taxpayer support or propping up by private media companies.


----------



## trillionaire#1 (18 July 2012)

Glen48 said:


> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...-what-the-rest-of-america-will-look-like-soon
> 
> Here what happens to a country when industry pulls out and companies go broke and job loses sky rocket.




Wow ,just had a google earth drive around Camden NJ(pine street) ,thats pretty scary stuff Glen!
Lets hope the likes of geelong ,whyalla,etc dont follow suit.


----------



## Eager (18 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Of course they are.  Just because they happen to disagree with you.



I remember when I first joined ASF, my very first reply to something that you posted contained exasperation at your inability to take things at face value. So it continues.

LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

People buy diesel cars because of their economy. Diesel cars are more expensive to buy than petrol cars. Diesel costs more at the bowser than petrol. Diesel cars are more expensive to service than petrol cars.

I have an opinion that if a person buys a diesel car for its economy, then it is a false economy. Consequently they are fools for their choices, not because I say so.


----------



## Intrinsic Value (18 July 2012)

ROE said:


> I prefer a job with tough conditions than no job at all
> When the union keep taking and and not giving and don't give too much consideration to
> their business employer will have a few choices.
> 
> ...




Qantas are an interesting example. They cant really compete against overseas carriers with the wages and conditions that Australian workers want and indeed need to survive in Australia.  It is a bit of catch 22. The only real solution is to base their overseas operations offshore and that of course means that those workers will join the dole queue as well.  But you cant expect the workers to work for the same wages as people get in many other countries as you just couldnt survive on those wages in Australia.

This is increasingly more likely to happen in many industries in Australia in the coming years.

The global workforce is huge and that means there are many with skills who are prepared to work for far less than what your avergage australian is used to.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 July 2012)

Eager said:


> IPeople buy diesel cars because of their economy. Diesel cars are more expensive to buy than petrol cars. Diesel costs more at the bowser than petrol. Diesel cars are more expensive to service than petrol cars.
> 
> I have an opinion that if a person buys a diesel car for its economy, then it is a false economy. Consequently they are fools for their choices, not because I say so.



Therein lies the problem with Ford and Holden.

They need to manufacture what people actually want to buy, not what the company thinks they ought to buy. 

If customers want diesel then that's what they need to be selling, otherwise those customers will simply go elsewhere. Whether the customer is wrong or right has nothing to do with it. Business 101 - give them what they want, and if that's diesel then so be it.


----------



## Julia (18 July 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Therein lies the problem with Ford and Holden.
> 
> They need to manufacture what people actually want to buy, not what the company thinks they ought to buy.



And that's the whole point.  Pretty silly to bleat about falling sales when refusing to take account of what people actually want to buy.


----------



## Eager (19 July 2012)

Julia said:


> And that's the whole point.  Pretty silly to bleat about falling sales when refusing to take account of what people actually want to buy.



I actually agree with that, but only because the motoring public have been stooged into thinking that they need to buy something unneccesarily small and/or foreign.

The marketing ability of Ford Australia has been atrocious over the years. Holden, despite declining sales of the Commodore, has done better in that V8 variants still account for (anectdotally) around 20% of sales. The Commodore has been a fleet favourite too, again due to perception; they have smaller engines than, but use no less petrol in the real world than Falcons. Again anecdotally, the sales comparison between Falcon and Commodore _for those that pay for new cars with their own money _is not that different.

But yes, smaller cars are in vogue. The medium sized Holden Cruze is as popular as the Commodore now, and Ford stuffed up majorly by not going ahead with local production of the globally popular Focus. It is a different situation now to the 'fuel crisis' in the 1970's when people stopped buying Valiants in favour of the Galant. Small cars are somewhat worthy now, but I still maintain that it is a crying shame that few are aware how worthy the locally produced product is too. We all suffer as a result.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 July 2012)

The car business has a lot in common with the food business.

There may well be a logical, rational reason for buying a certain car due to the "facts and figures" or for eating salads because they are healthy. 

But in the real world, you can create a global chain selling burgers or fried chicken but you'd be hard pressed to do the same selling salad rolls despite the numerous rational reasons as to why the latter is preferable. For the same reason it's folly to persist in trying to sell cars that people don't want to buy no matter how good they might be "on paper".


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## ROE (19 July 2012)

Julia said:


> They may be buying the Mazda out of simple preference, not necessarily to do with fuel consumption.




I had a Toyota made in Japan bought it second hand, no issues for 10 years
I then give Aussie car a go a Holden.

Never again I buy it  got rid of it after 5 years
you can come up with the world most fuel efficient car and I still wouldn't touch it

I bought Mazda made in Japan again 5 years into it no issue what so ever.

Aussie can manufacture some good stuff but car wise I think they need
to learn from the Japanese and the German ...


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## numbercruncher (20 July 2012)

Looks like another 500 on the scrapheap .....



> Leaked information from a Cabinet Budget Review submission suggests that 550 jobs from the 2500 in the new Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry will be axed, according to Queensland's Deputy Opposition Leader.
> Speaking from Townsville this morning, Tim Mulherin said that was about 20 per cent of the department's staff.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...on-the-line-20120720-22e82.html#ixzz218wskJ1z


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## young-gun (20 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Looks like another 500 on the scrapheap .....




Will be interesting to see the next round of unemployment figures. The company I'm currently working for gave a round-a-bout warning of, 'tough times ahead, pick up your act or pick up your notice' type speech, without being as direct.


----------



## Steve C (20 July 2012)

young-gun said:


> Will be interesting to see the next round of unemployment figures. The company I'm currently working for gave a round-a-bout warning of, 'tough times ahead, pick up your act or pick up your notice' type speech, without being as direct.




Similar things happening at my work - including some people being asked leave over East (Big 4 Firm)


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## prawn_86 (20 July 2012)

young-gun said:


> Will be interesting to see the next round of unemployment figures. The company I'm currently working for gave a round-a-bout warning of, 'tough times ahead, pick up your act or pick up your notice' type speech, without being as direct.






Steve C said:


> Similar things happening at my work - including some people being asked leave over East (Big 4 Firm)




Firm i work for has employed about 20% more staff within the last year and looking to bring in more. One of the few growth stories in finance as far as i can tell


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## Smurf1976 (20 July 2012)

At work I deal quite a lot with suppliers etc, most of which are small businesses with many customers. 

It's to the point now that I don't even ask how things are going, but almost all of them mention it anyway. The odd one or two says things are going OK, but most say that business is slow or outright dismal. It's probably fair to assume that this will lead to job losses in due course, if it hasn't already. 

A significant contractor that we use went bust a few weeks ago. This was a contractor doing fairly specialised civil construction and electrical type work. I don't know how many employees they had, but I'd guess maybe 50 or so.

Another thing I've noticed is that there does seem to be less traffic on the roads. OK, the streets of Tasmania aren't exactly the best place to find lots of traffic  but it does seem quieter than it used to be. The only real explanations I can come up with relate to the economy - if people don't have a job then they won't be driving to and from work. And if they aren't spending then there's less freight to transport too. It's not as though there's some other logical explanation like a surge in petrol prices or an expansion of public transport services.


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## prawn_86 (20 July 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> At work I deal quite a lot with suppliers etc, most of which are small businesses with many customers.
> 
> It's to the point now that I don't even ask how things are going, but almost all of them mention it anyway. The odd one or two says things are going OK, but most say that business is slow or outright dismal. It's probably fair to assume that this will lead to job losses in due course, if it hasn't already.




I deal directly with about 150 different companies across virtually every industry in my role. Most are reporting 'flat' or 'average' conditions. Not many are saying dismal etc.

Anything mining related is doing well, vast majority is average (just paying the bills and wages), fashion and a lot of manufacturing are very poor.

That's my experience with a sample size of 150


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## Smurf1976 (20 July 2012)

I should have added that in my case all of them are civil, electrical, mechanical etc either suppliers of equipment, tools etc or contractors. The kind of businesses who have utilities, local government, manufacturers etc as their main customers.


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## young-gun (21 July 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> At work I deal quite a lot with suppliers etc, most of which are small businesses with many customers.
> 
> It's to the point now that I don't even ask how things are going, but almost all of them mention it anyway. The odd one or two says things are going OK, but most say that business is slow or outright dismal. It's probably fair to assume that this will lead to job losses in due course, if it hasn't already.
> 
> ...





The past 2 weekends(sundays) I have been dragged along to the the biggest shopping mall on the north-side of brisbane. Normally I dred going as it's packed, you can't get a park, you have to wait for a seat to eat your food in the food courts. Especially if it's raining as it was on one of the two occasions. 

The past 2 weekends have been quite the opposite. we arrived at midday, grabbed lunch straight away, seats everywhere, plenty of parking close to entrances, far less crowds of people fighting against you down the corridors. Perhaps it's just a one off thing, but I've personally never seen it so quiet.


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## joea (21 July 2012)

In Nth.Qld. (north of Cairns), house building is starting to crawl back into motion.
Mareeba is busy in the streets.
In Cairns a number of small business have gone broke, with more having sales and moving to cheaper rent.
Mobile Homes and caravans have been on the move the last two weeks.

However the traffic is not quite as busy as last year.
joea


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## Judd (21 July 2012)

I am quite happy to be Full Time Unemployed and therefore adding to the jobless numbers.

Not quite true as I do casual but firms don't want me full time so I make do with what is available mainly for the social aspects as opposed to a need for money.


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## IFocus (21 July 2012)

A major chemical manufacturer here in WA has halved its production levels because of issues in China.

No job lay off's yet


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## prawn_86 (21 July 2012)

Judd said:


> I am quite happy to be Full Time Unemployed and therefore adding to the jobless numbers.




If you work more than an hour a week you are in fact classified as working, so you are adding to the employed numbers, not the jobless


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## Glen48 (21 July 2012)

So spend 1 hour a week looking for a job means you are employed..??

China will be a good market for any thing related to head ache's as they have a few coming.


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## Judd (21 July 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> If you work more than an hour a week you are in fact classified as working, so you are adding to the employed numbers, not the jobless




Yes, I know.  There weren't enough sarcasm mots to put in my previous post.  

It is an odd definition.  It has, I think, been in since the 1950's but obviously I stand to be corrected on that.

It is rather illuminating where I presently occupy some of my week (I really shouldn't call it work).  A number of my work colleagues, yes, they are doing it tough.  And I am not necessarily referring to a group younger than myself.  A number are there because they have to be and need every dollar they can get.  Partner ill, divorce, etc, etc.  Scared of losing the work and not being able to get another.  A whole range of issues.  The work arena has changed dramatically since the mid-70's even though at that time there was a drop in employment (Oil crisis stuff). 

Also, I sometimes wonder if there should be a category of Employed but no income.  Two of my friends are in the building trade.  One did some commercial work for a large company and finished it in May.  $45,000.  When I spoke to him last week, he still hadn't been paid.  Mightly annoyed.  The other even more so.  Since April, hadn't been able to contact a bloke he has known for over 20 years and who owes him $15k.  Yep, finds out he has declared himself bankrupt.  No probs though. $2 for another company name and Bob the Builder keeps on keeping on.  Sad about the people he owed money to but whatever.


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## Eager (22 July 2012)

Re: Australian Job Growth.

Maybe it is technically not growth, but there is a marked shift towards full time company employment rather than outsourced contractor type of employment in some sectors.

AGL is creating a whole new in-house back-up maintenance funtion to supplement its first-reponse team at Loy Yang power station. This is a team of 10 workers on a base of around $100k each. It will largely replace its pool of contractor supplied labour that was called upon to do the mundane preventative work and peak load labour requirement.

It is good to see the creation of highly skilled and highly paid in-house positions. Companies like AGL are not foolish - hopefully others see the light and shy away from outsourcing/casualisation etc as well.


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## Smurf1976 (22 July 2012)

So far as outsourcing is concerned, it makes sense for one off and other temporary situations but I can't see how it saves money when the work is ongoing. Doing it in house has always seemed the more sensible option to me.

The workers get paid and materials are needed either way. But with outsourcing you need people dealing with contracts and administration both for the customer and the outsourced provider and this doesn't come cheap. Then you have more people controlling and directing the work than you would otherwise have, again because you need two sets of them in many cases. Then there's the higher costs associated with uncertainty over long term operations (unless it's a very long term contract). Then you have profit for the provider. I just can't see how that's actually cheaper than doing it yourself, assuming as I said that we're talking about permanent, ongoing work.


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## prawn_86 (24 July 2012)

Accolade Wines cutting 175 jobs in SA

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-24/merger-accolade-wines-reynella/4150456


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## prawn_86 (25 July 2012)

CMI to close in Victoria. 119 jobs to go by years end - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-25/cmi-melbourne-factories-to-close/4154372


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## Ijustnewit (26 July 2012)

Caltex to close Kurnell Refinery 330 jobs to go.


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## prawn_86 (26 July 2012)

LTQ Engineering in Tullamarine, VIC to close down. Circa 160 jobs to go by Sep


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## MrBurns (26 July 2012)

This is now very serious, I dont envy Abbott or the Libs walking into this mess.

Job losses mean less retail spending means decline in the value of property means social unrest.:bad:


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## prawn_86 (26 July 2012)

In this thread alone, we have reported 1284 job losses in the last week. Obvoisuly these wont all go into the next quarters numbers, as not all jobs will be lost this quarter, but just on this threads reporting jobs are being lost at a rate >180 per day 

Of course no way of knowing, or us ASF members keeping track of how many have been employed to offset this number


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## MrBurns (26 July 2012)

The first two top stories on the ABC web site are about job losses, you don't see that every day.


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## Smurf1976 (26 July 2012)

Both the Caltex shutdown and the Qantas one carry similar broader risks, that being that we are losing our capacity to sustain basic industries within our own borders.

It's bad enough to need to import crude oil to put into the refinery but having to import a range of refined products is a greater strategic risk for sure. Likewise it's not good to be slowly but surely losing the ability to maintain aircraft, manufacture cars and so on.

What happens when we're next at war and such products and services are difficult if not impossible to import? We seem to have forgotten why many of these industries were set up in Australia in the first place, and the incredibly difficulties (wartime) under which some of them were established.

Aluminium smelting, steel production, ferro alloys, car and other machinery manufacture, oil refining, power generation and so on. All of them are strategic and most of them are of military concern if not able to be produced in adequate volume domestically.


----------



## jank (27 July 2012)

Seen this all before unfortunately. Australia is due for a tough few years ahead. These job loses are not surprising given the high cost of EVERYTHING!


----------



## Aussiejeff (27 July 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> In this thread alone, we have reported 1284 job losses in the last week. Obvoisuly these wont all go into the next quarters numbers, as not all jobs will be lost this quarter, but just on this threads reporting jobs are being lost at a rate >180 per day
> 
> Of course no way of knowing, or us ASF members keeping track of how many have been employed to offset this number




Of course, the situation is far, far worse - most of these job losses reported here and talked about are only the big ticket numbers that make the mainstream media headlines. 

Meanwhile, thousands of small businesses (esp. service, manufacturing, retail, tourism etc) are no doubt quietly going about sacking staff and shutting up shop without making media headlines. Just as well for the gummint, eh?

In reality-land, prolly close to twice that number of employees (or more) are getting the boot each day across Australia. Say conservatively, 300-350 per day??

:frown:

aj


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## Eager (29 July 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> ...the Caltex shutdown...



Economies of scale is the overriding factor there (most modern refineries overseas are 10x the size - another reason why we should continue to import as many people as possible, to grow the country, instead of cling to a head-in-the-sand, 1950's insular attitude).

Their Brisbane refinery will remain, as will at least half a dozen other refineries around the country. Shutting refineries down is nothing new; BP used to operate one at Westernport etc.

The other factor of course is that it is not just the petro-chemical manufacturers but a large proportion of the manufacturing sector failed to invest when the times were good.


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## Smurf1976 (29 July 2012)

I understand the point about scale, but there's an underlying reason behind it.

For whatever reasons, there simply wasn't enough investment so as to create a world scale operation in the past. That's a common situation in manufacturing, they just stop investing in the plant. Then it gradually runs down until the inevitable closure is announced.

I don't know the exact timing or reasons obviously, but Caltex effectively made a decision to close that refinery probably 20+ years ago when they stopped investing in it. They could have turned it into a huge operation that would be profitable but, for whatever reason, chose not to. I'm guessing that proximity to the city and other activities was probably a factor in concluding that massive expansion was simply too risky given the need to then remain at that site for another 30+ years. Given the location, it's not unforeseeable that there could be issues with surrounding land uses, environmental regulations etc within that timeframe. 

It's like other industries, for example there's basically no investment now in the aluminium smelting industry. They've effectively made a decision to shut down, and are simply running the plants until either they physically fall apart or become so outmoded that cash flow goes negative. Then they close. Much the same could be said of various other industries too. They just aren't investing sufficiently such that closure is practically inevitable, the only real question being the timing.

A locally well known brick works not far from me closed down a few months ago. The official reason for closure was that it required too much investment to remain viable under modern environmental and OH&S requirements (it being the location of a very well publicised workplace accident a year or two ago). In reality however, there hadn't been major investment in the place since 1975 apart from a fuel conversion (from oil to sawdust) circa 1980. Everything is run down, a fact clearly obvious even from outside. Exactly when the "real" decision to close was made I don't know, but it was clearly a long time before the actual announcement.

So far as oil refineries are concerned, we've gone from 10 to 5 with the closure of both the Shell and Caltex refineries in Sydney (leaving no operating refineries in NSW).


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## prawn_86 (31 July 2012)

2000 jobs to go from QLD Transport and Road-tek

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-31/22c000-jobs-to-be-axed-in-qld-transport/4166238


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## white_goodman (31 July 2012)

I dont quite understand the point of this thread, theres always going to be job losses, as long as its offset by more job creation then who cares? Economies dont remain stagnant, otherwise we would still be supporting the cobb n co coach industry..


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## prawn_86 (31 July 2012)

white_goodman said:


> I dont quite understand the point of this thread, theres always going to be job losses, as long as its offset by more job creation then who cares? Economies dont remain stagnant, otherwise we would still be supporting the cobb n co coach industry..




Agreed, but it does seem as though the media is reporting a lot more job losses. Whether that is just their negative bias, or larger amounts of jobs are actually being lost, that is up for debate.

Back 4 or 5 years ago it was rare to see a report of a company sacking >100 staff yet now it seems to be becoming increasingly common. It would be nice if there was a way we could get the employment numbers reported also but have to wait for the surveys


----------



## Ijustnewit (31 July 2012)

News from Tasmania , 14 Border Protection / Customs jobs to go , ACL Bearings Launceston another 20 and UTAS Uni is calling for voluntary redundancies. Also Chicken Feed Bargain shops owned by Jane Cameron ( founder of Katmandu) is closing two Hobart stores.


----------



## numbercruncher (31 July 2012)

Another 2000 on the scrapheap courtesy of the incompetent Newman Government .....






> Another 2000 Queensland public servants are bracing for a tap on the shoulder after the state announced a mass purge of transport workers in its multibillion-dollar cost-cutting drive.
> Another 2000 Queensland public servants are bracing for a tap on the shoulder after the state announced a mass purge of transport workers in its multibillion-dollar cost-cutting drive.







> There are now over 6500 confirmed job losses in the public sector since Premier Campbell Newman came to power in March, and he is eyeing another 13,500.


----------



## MrBurns (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Another 2000 on the scrapheap courtesy of the incompetent Newman Government .....




LOL thats a bit rich he's only been in 5 minutes, no ....the loss of jobs and general downturn in everything except taxes is entirely the work of a Labor party !!!


----------



## numbercruncher (31 July 2012)

MrBurns said:


> This is now very serious, I dont envy Abbott or the Libs walking into this mess.
> 
> Job losses mean less retail spending means decline in the value of property means social unrest.:bad:





Decline in property values = social unrest ? Haha good one .....


----------



## numbercruncher (31 July 2012)

MrBurns said:


> LOL thats a bit rich he's only been in 5 minutes, no ....the loss of jobs and general downturn in everything except taxes is entirely the work of a Labor party !!!




He chose to sack them , he is clearly going to be as incompetent as the prior labor government .....


One pack of muppets overspends during the good times and the next pack of muppets underspends in the bad times, no minimum education or iq needed to be a politician it seems !


----------



## white_goodman (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> He chose to sack them , he is clearly going to be as incompetent as the prior labor government .....
> 
> 
> One pack of muppets overspends during the good times and the next pack of muppets underspends in the bad times, no minimum education or iq needed to be a politician it seems !




of course its only fair if the private sector experiences downturns and loss of jobs, the public sector is the untouchables, holier than thou


----------



## MrBurns (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Decline in property values = social unrest ? Haha good one .....




Lack of money = social unrest is what I was getting at.

But then the idea of marauding gangs of property developers does create a picture


----------



## MrBurns (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> He chose to sack them , he is clearly going to be as incompetent as the prior labor government .....
> One pack of muppets overspends during the good times and the next pack of muppets underspends in the bad times, no minimum education or iq needed to be a politician it seems !




It's the same here in Vic, Labor blew the money now the Libs have to budget and hard, no money for nurses or the police, cuts here cuts everywhere - why ? 
Well for a start we have to pay $1 Billion per year for 24 years for the desal plant we dont use and may never use.

And thats only the start.............



> Desalination plant a $24 billion rust bucket




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/billion-rust-bucket/story-fn7x8me2-1226388121424

Yes another great scheme by a reforming Labor Govt


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2012)

Ijustnewit said:


> News from Tasmania , 14 Border Protection / Customs jobs to go , ACL Bearings Launceston another 20 and UTAS Uni is calling for voluntary redundancies. Also Chicken Feed Bargain shops owned by Jane Cameron ( founder of Katmandu) is closing two Hobart stores.



I reckon it's only a matter of time until ACL goes the same way as Coats Paton, APPM and the various other big factories in Tas which have died by a thousand cuts.

The thing most don't realise, and I was one of those until quite recently, is that ACL actually has some damn good stuff. It's not just a factory churning out mass market ball bearings or something like that as the name implies. There's a lot of precision involved there and it's not the sort of thing that could easily be re-established once it goes. 

As for bargain shops, Chickenfeed might be closing at Eastlands (a major shopping centre in Hobart) but that's largely due to the high rents in that place. Bargain stores as a whole seem to be booming, and I take that as a sign of the economy. Chickenfeed itself emerged amidst the economic doom a bit over 20 years ago and even Woolworths entered the game at the time with their "Peanuts" stores. 

This time around we've got Shiploads as the new one, and of course there's the national chain The Reject Shop now in the game as well. That we can support 3 major bargain store chains, one of which is very rapidly growing, speaks volumes about the overall economy in my opinion. The likes of Myer are struggling whilst the cheapest goods are selling well elsewhere. People aren't willing, or simply can't, pay top $ to buy better quality these days.


----------



## Julia (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Another 2000 on the scrapheap courtesy of the incompetent Newman Government .....



All Can-Do is having to do is get rid of some of the bloated public service created by the Bligh government where, just as one example, in Qld Health there are two administrative employees for every single health worker.


----------



## Ves (31 July 2012)

Julia said:


> All Can-Do is having to do is get rid of some of the bloated public service created by the Bligh government where, just as one example, in Qld Health there are two administrative employees for every single health worker.



I lost interest in him when he used the first parliamentary session to give him and his bloated party squadron a payrise.  Talk about arrogance!

I don't think he realises that for every job he cuts in the public service, someone else inadvertantly loses their job in the private sector  (there is research with factor tables out there for this kind of thing, I believe).  

Gold medal performance announcing this whilst the public's eye is on the Olympics too. I can understand they need to cut money (to an extent) but the way he has gone about this makes me cringe.


----------



## Ves (31 July 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Lack of money = social unrest is what I was getting at.
> 
> But then the idea of marauding gangs of property developers does create a picture




A lot of Can-do's mates are in the property development gig.  They won't be left lacking - mark my words!


----------



## numbercruncher (31 July 2012)

Julia said:


> All Can-Do is having to do is get rid of some of the bloated public service created by the Bligh government where, just as one example, in Qld Health there are two administrative employees for every single health worker.




Is that 2:1 figure backed up with a link or something ? Looks like more propagnda to take the heat off cant-do incompetence. Might be his next target , sack half of health workers , make doctors do their own admin , work 20hrs a day instead of 16 ? Then the next wave of interstate retirees who havnt contributed a bean to Qld will rock up so we can up doctors workload to 22hrs aday ...... 2 hrs sleep and some pseudoephedrine should see them through .....

Can do!


----------



## jank (31 July 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Is that 2:1 figure backed up with a link or something ? Looks like more propagnda to take the heat off cant-do incompetence. Might be his next target , sack half of health workers , make doctors do their own admin , work 20hrs a day instead of 16 ? Then the next wave of interstate retirees who havnt contributed a bean to Qld will rock up so we can up doctors workload to 22hrs aday ...... 2 hrs sleep and some pseudoephedrine should see them through .....
> 
> Can do!




Got to love the Aussies, you guys like to whinge a lot! The Poms have nothing on you guys.


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## prawn_86 (3 August 2012)

33 jobs to go at CUB. Maybe they should brew better beers rather than the bland boring sh1te that most of their labels are

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/brewery-to-cut-33-jobs-20120802-23ies.html


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## chrislp (5 August 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> 33 jobs to go at CUB. Maybe they should brew better beers rather than the bland boring sh1te that most of their labels are
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/brewery-to-cut-33-jobs-20120802-23ies.html




Personally I think their beer's good but it's not priced correctly.


----------



## Timmy (9 August 2012)

The latest employment figures have been released by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, of anyone is interested.

*6202.0 - Labour Force, Australia, Jul 2012*
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0 (Summary)


> JULY KEY POINTS
> 
> 
> TREND ESTIMATES (MONTHLY CHANGE)
> ...


----------



## numbercruncher (9 August 2012)

Thousands more about to be thrown on the scrap heap thanks to campell the axe newman ....



> In other news, about 200 positions are to be cut from the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries (DAFF), with more 'savings' to be made before the budget.
> 
> After weeks of speculation about as many as 550 job losses in the newly formed department, Minister John McVeigh has confirmed hundreds of positions will go.






> Alex Scott from Together Queensland said they were expecting significant job cuts to be announced in the next few days, including up to 2000 in Public Works and Housing.






> Earlier, Treasurer Tim Nicholls revealed job losses in Queensland's public service could amount to more than 20,000.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/newman-government-hopeful-job-losses-wont-exceed-20000-treasurer-tim-nicholls-says/story-fndo2iwh-1226446629590

Im sure they will still be able to award plenty of contracts to their mates construction companies though hey ....


----------



## numbercruncher (13 August 2012)

> Earlier, Treasurer Tim Nicholls revealed job losses in Queensland's public service could amount to more than 20,000.




Hopefully they choose 20,000 people who are half a mil in debt each so than can take down a bank or something


----------



## ROE (13 August 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Hopefully they choose 20,000 people who are half a mil in debt each so than can take down a bank or something




why do you want to wish ill on other people? do you enjoy seeing other suffer or business going bankrupt?


----------



## numbercruncher (13 August 2012)

I see Clive Palmer is proving "Cant Do" Newman as the idiot that he is with a simple equation......




> BILLIONAIRE Clive Palmer is more in touch with the man on the street than Premier Campbell Newman is, a union has claimed.
> 
> The outspoken Mr Palmer has criticised the LNP's approach to Government saying they haven't created a "can do" atmosphere.
> 
> ...


----------



## numbercruncher (13 August 2012)

ROE said:


> why do you want to wish ill on other people? do you enjoy seeing other suffer or business going bankrupt?




Cant do wishes ill on other people (20,000 of them), not me, I just hope they are debt slaves who will be forced into being freed from their shackles ( negative equity mortgages and consumer debt etc) and taking down a greedy bank as a side effect would be a fantastic thing .......

You wishl the ills of a life of debt slavery on these poor souls ? Do you enjoy seeing them suffer and going bankrupt slowly ?


----------



## numbercruncher (3 September 2012)

Julia said:


> All Can-Do is having to do is get rid of some of the bloated public service created by the Bligh government where, just as one example, in Qld Health there are two administrative employees for every single health worker.




I see this nutjobs "budget" cuts are now destroying front line jobs , but funny enough hundreds of millions can still be blown on construction projects like the turf club and rail links etc .... 


Around 130 positions will be sacrificed in the next week, including 45 full-time equivalent nursing roles.


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...gs/story-e6frfku9-1226463543334#ixzz25OSFe7bk


----------



## Bushman (17 January 2013)

Boral has just cut 700 positions across all its business divisions. 

Bluescope Steel cut 170 positions last week. 

Most of these would be ALP voters ... they must be pleased that Gillard has ensured that Thomson and Poacher's Pantry Pete  have kept their snouts in the trough! 

ALP voters - regressive taxes, anti-business rhetoric, the support of entrenched union corruption, the winding back of much needed industrial relations reform and the spending of Australia's largesse on pink bats, pokies (via the fiscal 'stimulus' hand outs) and over priced school canteens means you lose your jobs in the eye of the producitvity storm. 

But don't worry; Paul Howes will say it is mean and unfair and give you a cuddle. 

Jokes on us I'm afraid.


----------



## tech/a (17 January 2013)

Dont know what all the fuss is about.

Just give business a printing press and away we go---problem solved!

Govts do it at sound economics
We do it its a jailable offence!


----------



## moXJO (17 January 2013)

Bushman said:


> Boral has just cut 700 positions across all its business divisions.
> 
> Bluescope Steel cut 170 positions last week.
> 
> ...




I wonder how much Boral and bluescope pay in carbon tax every month?


----------



## prawn_86 (17 January 2013)

5500 jobs lost last month. Seems as though all those news headlines are finally flowing through into the jobs figures


----------



## Aussiejeff (17 January 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> 5500 jobs lost last month. Seems as though all those news headlines are finally flowing through into the jobs figures




No, no, no...!!

This can't be happening..stock markets are soaring, bank profits are soaring. Where is the lie?


----------



## psailagroup (17 January 2013)

I also honestly think that the unemployment rate is allot higher then being "said".
Is it also fair to say that 8 out of 10 business have shredded their work force?

Also Tatt's Group have just moved from VIC to QLD (only two weeks ago) and they are working on  50% less head count.


----------



## prawn_86 (17 January 2013)

psailagroup said:


> I also honestly think that the unemployment rate is allot higher then being "said".
> Is it also fair to say that 8 out of 10 business have shredded their work force?
> 
> Also Tatt's Group have just moved from VIC to QLD (only two weeks ago) and they are working on  50% less head count.




'Underemployemt' is at a smidge under 20%. This is the amount of people who are not getting the hours they want to work (up to FT)


----------



## sydboy007 (17 January 2013)

i recently saw some farriers protesting about cars recently, and a few chimney sweeps complaining there were no more wood / coal fires.

Economies change, and the best we can do is hope to change with the structural adjustment in the fairest way we can.

I know there is a lot of underemployment, and the sad reality of the casualisation of the workforce is part of the cost / benefit of globalisation.  It works on a national / global level but suxs should you be on the wrong side of things 

I know 1 day my job will end up in vietnam or indai or..

Though i had to laugh that a customer called up yesterday having f/w issues and their support was handled via Vietnam.  They had to wait till 11am before the support got into the office.  No idea what the 2 days of trouble cost them, but would say they would have been far better off keeping my company supporting it and being able to sort things out in hours, not days.

I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic


----------



## drsmith (17 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic



The carbon tax increases the cost of energy overall and therefore weakens our economic competitiveness relative to the rest of the world. 

It's not rocket science.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic



That is only true if it applies to all countries and to international shipping. Otherwise it simply relocates energy-intensive production to a non or low carbon taxing country as is already happening.


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## rcm617 (18 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> That is only true if it applies to all countries and to international shipping. Otherwise it simply relocates energy-intensive production to a non or low carbon taxing country as is already happening.




Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.


----------



## Bushman (18 January 2013)

rcm617 said:


> Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
> It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.




Adelaide Brightons strategy to mitigate the impact of a carbon tax - 
1. enhance import flexibility 
2. reduce reliance on domestic manufacturing
3. increase use of alternative fuels and cement substitutes. 

1 & 2 equals more job losses in Australia, as another company with a global reach moves manufacturing to jurisdictions without a punitive carbon tax. 

Point 3 points to fuel substitution or product innovation down the line. 

The tragedy for those impacted by the first two strategies is that they will not have a job and are unlikely to have the skills to transfer to these new industries. 

The farcical nature of this poorly conceived tax burden is that all the tax does is move production to other jurisdictions that do not have a carbon tax with no net impact on greenhouse gas!! It is so mindlessly frustrating. 

An alternative would have been invest as a nation in alt fuels and cement substitutes until you create a price competitive, low carbon emmission product. Re-skill workers in non-green industries. Then let the market do what it does best.


----------



## orr (18 January 2013)

rcm617 said:


> Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
> It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.




Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c. 
So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management


----------



## rcm617 (18 January 2013)

orr said:


> Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c.
> So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management




PSH has been in trouble for a long time, like a lot of the industries exposed to imports and the strong $A. The carbon tax is just one more nail in the coffin, however in cases where a company is already on the brink, an extra expense certainly doesnt help. 
It also doesnt negate the fact that in a case like this, more carbon will now be used to supply the soda ash to Australia.
The same will apply to many other struggling Aussie companies competing against cheaper imports, the extra cost of the carbon tax just makes them that little bit more uncompetitive.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 January 2013)

orr said:


> Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c.
> So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management



Financial markets are forward looking by nature.

I think it's fair to say however that Australia is now uncompetitive for essentially all forms of manufacturing with very few exceptions. Even food processing is heading to the "export the crop, import the finished product" approach. Look in the supermarket freezers and there's plenty of things grown here, sent offshore for processing then imported back as a final product for sale.

If Penrice shuts the soda plant then that leaves us without critical materials for, amongst other things, glass manufacture. Just wait for the inevitable war and then we'll be completely stuffed with our ability to manufacture even basic things being slowly but surely dismantled.


----------



## howmanyru (18 January 2013)

I used to have a good job in the electronic manufacturing industry. Then we decided to make the product in China and we all lost our jobs. The company didn't care, it's all about proft margin not people. A lot of good manufacturing jobs have left this country for good, along with the expertise. Sure, you can re train as i did and move into another field, but it's not easy to do as you get older, and who wants to compete with thousands of young Uni grads?? The good thing about manufacturing is it's labour intensive, thus employing lots of people. It also employs a great diversity of people: engineers, admin, process workers, IT, warehouse, techs, sales, purchasing, etc, etc. The loss of manufacturing is a sad thing for Aus.


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2013)

How many of these companies are in effect being gagged by the government, with the compensation packages.
Even the village idiot would know there would be provisos on the handouts.lol
Another rope the dope occassion.IMO


----------



## CanOz (18 January 2013)

howmanyru said:


> I used to have a good job in the electronic manufacturing industry. Then we decided to make the product in China and we all lost our jobs. *The company didn't care, it's all about proft margin not people.* A lot of good manufacturing jobs have left this country for good, along with the expertise. Sure, you can re train as i did and move into another field, but it's not easy to do as you get older, and who wants to compete with thousands of young Uni grads?? The good thing about manufacturing is it's labour intensive, thus employing lots of people. It also employs a great diversity of people: engineers, admin, process workers, IT, warehouse, techs, sales, purchasing, etc, etc. The loss of manufacturing is a sad thing for Aus.




Big surprise here....

things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"

The only question though, is what is going to defeat the "I'm in a Union, can't be arsed working unless i get heat money, dust money, cold money, sweat money, wet money, thinking money..." attitude.

That killed Australian Manufacturing.:frown:



CanOz


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## Smurf1976 (19 January 2013)

CanOz said:


> things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"



I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "I don't want any Chinese rubbish" in the context of electrical or electronic goods. It's an increasingly common view it seems.

The moment a manufacturer moves production to China is the moment they give away their intellectual property and lose the value of their brand. I think it's only CEO's that struggle to comprehend this as it's obvious to most.


----------



## Gundini (19 January 2013)

CanOz said:


> Big surprise here....
> 
> things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"
> 
> ...




I 100% agree unions are a major contributor to the demise of Australian manufacturing. You can also blame the Australian Gov. with the "I deserve" attitude where people accept free money for no effort.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 January 2013)

At some point in the not too distant future we're going to be left with no industries at which we are actually competitive. 

What do we really have now that is truly competitive? Manufacturing? No. Agriculture? Not really. Mining? Suffice to say we're getting priced out of new LNG developments so even that one is looking iffy. Services? We're not even close.

So my thoughts go along the line that the AUD is fundamentally overvalued since pretty much none of our industries are competitive under the current climate. Logically we should eventually see a fall in the AUD to a point where we're competitive again although that's likely to come about in a disorderly fashion rather than a gradual decline in my opinion.


----------



## sydboy007 (19 January 2013)

I see lots of complaints in this thread, but what solutions do you suggest?

How many of you buy product online from overseas rather than in a store in Australia - costing retail jobs?

How many of you buy the cheaper imported food products - costing farmers and processor jobs?

How many of you hunt around online to find the cheapest price for a product in Australia - lowering retail profits and costing jobs.

For a stock forum there's quite often a lot of greens tinged talk.  Either you let the free market operate or we can always try the planned economy model, though you only have to see the number of bridges built to nowhere to see how badly that allocates resources.

Australia is a low-mid rank power.  We can't push the rest of the world to play fair, but in general terms we have benefited by lowering the tariff walls and keeping the local industry we have left globally competitive.

If anyone has a way to lower the AUD without causing an inflation spike I'd like to hear it.  Imagine the cost of petrol with the AUD down around 0.85 USD.  A lower Australian dollar would cure a lot of the issues we are seeing with lost competitiveness, though inflation would take off and interest rates would be rising again to contain it.  There's a world hungry for yield out there, so just imagine the billions in hot money that would flood the country, with all the associated problems that would bring us.

We have Conservative Govts in NSW and Victoria pandering to the Nationals and stopping the building of wind farms and exploration for CSG.  Someone needs to take the Waubra foundation to court over the lies they spread about wind farms. Barry O'ffarel has his head in the sand about NSW gas supplies.  It's going to be a HUGE issue come the next election.  Without new CSG supply in the next few years, I really have no idea where gas is going to come from.  Pretty much all the CSG in QLD is already marked for export.  We might end up importing LNG from WA the way things are going!  What's left in the Coopers basin seems destined for export as some of the QLD CSG  exporters haven't found enough CSG to support their contracted shipments.

If you're going to blame the carbon price for job losses then please tell me:

* what is the cost of energy for the business
* how does that rate as a % of total costs
* where does the company rank in terms of energy efficiency against domestic and international competitors.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 January 2013)

Agreed that gas is going to be a huge issue going forward.

Whatever jobs we get from LNG exports today, come at the expense of many more to be lost in domestic industry as gas and electricity prices rise as a result. Long term, it's a dud deal for most Australians.


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2013)

I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases but the fact is this "tax" is actually turned into a huge subsidies for major giants and not bringing any revenue, just costing some increasing the deficit (which is already abysmal when you consider our position 5 years ago) 
Billions which could have been better spend in improving our infrastructure and competitivenes...

On the other hand, this government would probably have fund a new way to blow the money into further handouts for the next election or given a feww more biillions to the rio/bhp or holden of this world
I really really believe we need a much lower dollar and/or a serious look at our wages.
a recession we need to have?


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2013)

why did I even use holden...too australian of me: GM or Ford... sorry/...


----------



## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

qldfrog said:


> I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases but the fact is this "tax" is actually turned into a huge subsidies for major giants and not bringing any revenue, just costing some increasing the deficit (which is already abysmal when you consider our position 5 years ago)
> Billions which could have been better spend in improving our infrastructure and competitivenes...
> 
> On the other hand, this government would probably have fund a new way to blow the money into further handouts for the next election or given a feww more biillions to the rio/bhp or holden of this world
> ...




So true.

I have no problem with the Govt helping an industry to adjust, but the car industry has been adjusting for a couple of decades.  I still remember the Button plan - was writing about it in high school economics.

I think the budget needs to itemise in an easily accessible form what the cost is of every subisidy, every tax rebate, tax forgone that is handed out, and then we can start to see where the money flows to or is jus tnot being collected int he first place.

Recent example is the financial industry hoopla over the Govt increasing the foreign investment witholding tax from 7.5% to 15%.  They've just bumped it up to the rate that most of our trading partners use.  Its the rate that most of the countries we have tax treaties with.  So why should a foreign investor get such a big tax break?  The yanks don't give us any break lie that.  30% tax unless you fill out the right forms to have it reduced to 15%.  Considering the foreign ownership of BHP / RIO I have no problem keep some more of the resource revenue in this country.

As for the likes of Google and ebay etc siphoning off billions in revenue from Australia and paying piddling amounts of tax.  Something has got to be done to stop the bleeding of this revenue from the country.


----------



## prawn_86 (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> I see lots of complaints in this thread, but what solutions do you suggest?
> 
> How many of you buy product online from overseas rather than in a store in Australia - costing retail jobs?
> 
> ...




1. When i buy online i always try and but from an Australian site or ebay seller.
2. We try and buy Australian produce as much as possible
3. Of course we look online. That is just market forces. However if i do make a large purchase via a retailer, providing their service and knowledge is good i am happy to pay more, up to a certain extent.

The problem is that as with any economy we don't have a free market. Govt keeps intervening so then others come up with other ideas as to what other interventions would be good.

The solution in my mind, which will never happen, is for the media to stop focusing on everything politicians do and especially say, and for governments to take a long term approach and efficiently spend their revenues without vested interests. Having online voting referendum style for all parlimentary votes would also help.

I hate getting political but unfortunately it is political solutions required to improve the job market imo


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## IFocus (20 January 2013)

I see the usual hobby horses trotted out, biggest impost currently is the strength of the AUD for manufacturing that sells into the overseas markets.

I remember one major exported here in WA @ 70 cents was break even on costs, AUD now $1.05 what do you think that would mean competing against China / Asia?


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## Julia (20 January 2013)

qldfrog said:


> I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases



Penrice Soda include the carbon tax as a contributor to their recent decision.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s-soda-ash-plant/story-fn91v9q3-1226557052301


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## Miner (20 January 2013)

Unlike Australia, I find the following in Canada other than Canadians are in general are very polite and accept people people from all nations easily and do not much make loud noise /publicity among first nation people (same as indigeneous people in Australia) (not trying to be political)  :
1. They charge substantial customs duty and HST (Harmonised Sales tax) on every incoming imports including On Line Shopping. It is very much deterent to free inflow of cheap goods . For example my Black Berry from USA office was levied $80 towards customs duty even the cost in insurance was stated as $600; we buy 40% discounted commercial goods from suppliers in USA and then pay very hefty customs duty in the entry of Canada forcing us to buy from the same company's Canadian Agent;
2. Work Permit takes minimum 4 months for overseas qualified and skilled candidates and that too valid from 1 to 3 years whereas 457 is granted so easily by Australian Government to overseas qualified and skilled candidates. Canadian restriction applies to all even people from UK and South Africa unlike Australia makes preferential treatment for skilled people from UK and South Africa even if that means Australian jobs are lost ;
3. PR to people with work permit is granted in Canada only after minimum two years work temporary residency and after taking about 2 years whereas it is so easy to get PR in Australia for 457 - we are losing jobs from overseas candidates; The retention of PR is also tough unlike Australian PR retention;
4. Refugees are not easily accepted through Immigration Department and there is hardly any publicity whereas Australian Government not only makes it so easy but also press creates huge publicity making Government looks like a human offender - Job Losses because the refugees work at a much lower rate than Australians
5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . Who pays the cost we. In a way labour rate is unreasonably high in Australia making job retention untenable in Australian market;

I am learning the difference only starting work in Canada /USA in last 18 months .

Best wishes


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Penrice Soda include the carbon tax as a contributor to their recent decision.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s-soda-ash-plant/story-fn91v9q3-1226557052301



The process is very energy intensive, to the point that there's a power station on the site for this reason.

Importing from overseas is the logical step to reduce carbon emissions under the tax. Of course all it actually does is shift them to another country.


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2013)

Miner said:


> 5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . *Who pays the cost we.*



Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.

Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.

It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.


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## FlyingFox (20 January 2013)

Miner said:


> .....
> 5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . Who pays the cost we. In a way labour rate is unreasonably high in Australia making job retention untenable in Australian market;
> ....




Apart from the strong aussie dollar, this is the second biggest reason for the uncompetitiveness of AUS. There is a minimum wage that is prescribed by the government but the actual minimum is supply and demand and can be the quite high. Even at the AUD at .80 r .85, the wages will be uncompetitive. 

Moreover this serves as a disincentive for gaining further qualifications thus increasing our reliance on overseas skilled workers.


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## FlyingFox (20 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.
> 
> Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.
> 
> It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.




While I agree with this and it is difficult to make detailed comparisons, the fact that the US minimum sanctioned wage is $7.25 including tips (cash only is $2.13 when tips are allowed) means that our minimum wage is at least twice theirs. That is a huge difference!


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## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.
> 
> Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.
> 
> It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.




My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney.  The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top.  I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.

Alcohol from a shop is cheap as the tax is quite low.  Public transport was also very cheap compared to Sydney.

Shouldn't we want to live in a high wage economy?  I'd hate for us to move towards a US system where people in retail have to work 2 or 3 jobs to get a livable income.  I think we need to have a minimum wage that provides a decent income for a full time worker.


----------



## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney.  The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top.  I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.
> 
> Alcohol from a shop is cheap as the tax is quite low.  Public transport was also very cheap compared to Sydney.
> 
> Shouldn't we want to live in a high wage economy?  I'd hate for us to move towards a US system where people in retail have to work 2 or 3 jobs to get a livable income.  I think we need to have a minimum wage that provides a decent income for a full time worker.






drsmith said:


> The carbon tax increases the cost of energy overall and therefore weakens our economic competitiveness relative to the rest of the world.
> 
> It's not rocket science.




If the USA and Europe introduce carbon taxes on shipping and aviation fuel it would quickly change the economics of a lot of manufacturing.  For 2 decades I've never understood why we use so many resources to ship items from a rich country to a poor then a middle income then poor and finally the finished product is sent back to a rich country.

Mac computers in the 80s literally traveled to the moon and back when you added up all the miles each component had traveled.

It might produce cheap goods, but that's because a lot of the negative effects are not costed.


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## prawn_86 (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney.  The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top.  I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.




Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining

Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better


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## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "I don't want any Chinese rubbish" in the context of electrical or electronic goods. It's an increasingly common view it seems.
> 
> The moment a manufacturer moves production to China is the moment they give away their intellectual property and lose the value of their brand. I think it's only CEO's that struggle to comprehend this as it's obvious to most.




Very true.

Though I think the Chinese Govt is slowly realising that if they don't respect IP then they will struggle to get globally competitive companies that produce innovative products and generate the patents that are fast becoming necessary to have some form of protection from litigation.


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining
> 
> Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better




Agree, eating out here is more expensive than Europe, and the service is worse.

gg


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## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Very true.
> 
> Though I think the Chinese Govt is slowly realising that if they don't respect IP then they will struggle to get globally competitive companies that produce innovative products and generate the patents that are fast becoming necessary to have some form of protection from litigation.






prawn_86 said:


> Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining
> 
> Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better




Must admit I only went to mid price establishments or cafes.  IF you are including alcohol in the bill then a large part would be the lower alcohol tax.  I couldn't believe I could buy 12 yr old scotch at the super market at less than duty free prices.  My taste buds were happy though


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## McLovin (20 January 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining
> 
> Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better




The quality of food at each price point in Australia is significantly higher than the US, IME. I'd say that applies to Europe as well.


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## prawn_86 (20 January 2013)

McLovin said:


> The quality of food at each price point in Australia is significantly higher than the US, IME. I'd say that applies to Europe as well.




You have spent a lot more time in the US than I so i wont doubt you. OUr experiences over there were when comparing apples with apples (or in this case a nice bar's burgers in each country) then it was very similar. Perhaps it is because we specifically sought out places in the US that were known for their food


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## IFocus (20 January 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> While I agree with this and it is difficult to make detailed comparisons, the fact that the US minimum sanctioned wage is $7.25 including tips (cash only is $2.13 when tips are allowed) means that our minimum wage is at least twice theirs. That is a huge difference!




Don't know if you are aware but USA middle class earnings have fallen below 1989 levels, I think thats unacceptable by any measure given the expansion of US GDP and top end wealth.

So when people talk about US low wages basically they are talking about a under class of working poor.

Is that what we should be striving for?

I notice low wages hasn't done a whole lot for their unemployment numbers either. 

BTW not being critical just saying.


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## Miner (20 January 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Apart from the strong aussie dollar, this is the second biggest reason for the uncompetitiveness of AUS. There is a minimum wage that is prescribed by the government but the actual minimum is supply and demand and can be the quite high. Even at the AUD at .80 r .85, the wages will be uncompetitive.
> 
> Moreover this serves as a disincentive for* gaining further qualifications thus increasing our reliance *on overseas skilled workers.




You are right.
So our kids from year 10 onwards prefer to do the VAT (Vocational Test something for TAFE) than going for year 12 whereas kids of South Asia and South East Asia origin venture for universities. Look at most of the universities and see who are there. Trolley pushers - look who are running there. Well our Aussie kids of British/Australian origin go to TAFE become excellent Fitters, Shot firers (mining), Electricians - earn excellent money to buy big houses but end of the day skill gap remains in other areas. So import doctors, engineers, IT specialists en masse from overseas !!! Universities pay so poorly and teachers have no practical skills but excellent Ph Ds. So we produce rotten university graduates barring few. Again we import teachers even from overseas. It is catch 22 situation. 
We need to be more patriotic than just waving flags on 26 January or observing ANZAC day .


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

Miner said:


> You are right.
> So our kids from year 10 onwards prefer to do the VAT (Vocational Test something for TAFE) than going for year 12 whereas kids of South Asia and South East Asia origin venture for universities. Look at most of the universities and see who are there. Trolley pushers - look who are running there. Well our Aussie kids of British/Australian origin go to TAFE become excellent Fitters, Shot firers (mining), Electricians - earn excellent money to buy big houses but end of the day skill gap remains in other areas. So import doctors, engineers, IT specialists en masse from overseas !!! Universities pay so poorly and teachers have no practical skills but excellent Ph Ds. So we produce rotten university graduates barring few. Again we import teachers even from overseas. It is catch 22 situation.
> We need to be more patriotic than just waving flags on 26 January or observing ANZAC day .




+1

gg


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## Miner (20 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.
> 
> Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.
> 
> It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.




In Canada also there is a standard practice of paying tip and it is not hidden. In fact if you are going to a party of more than 8 - the tip automatically becomes 18% in most good joints. But Hey, think of this - the wages are already low considering there will be a tip by most if not all. If you take a sandwich for $5 you often do not pay tip. WOrking lunches during office time cost $5 to $8 plus tax - hardly any tip.
Even if you decide to pay tip how much you pay for $8 lunch ? $1 to $1.60 max. 
Yes, I am getting used to pay 12 to 14% tax but that does not go to the wages for the guys. In fact it is astronomically cheap when I bought a Hugo Boss watch for $200 against its original price of $1800 - not fake. Excellent Branded Jacket from Macey in USA at 80% discount. Even New Kelvin Underwear costs more than the jacket. So tax does not matter. We go to Seattle regularly and prices of goods are unrealistically cheap.
Besides, you can return anything within 30 days including opened up yoghurt boxes, used lap top in USA and Canada if you retained receipts. 
Gone are the days that US taxi drivers feel bad if you do not pay tips. In fact they profusely thank if you pay tip. Exception Las Vegas.
I am still catching up to pay more than 15% tip being an Australian . But even after tips, taxes meals are cheaper. Sometimes lunch is so big in USA that one can easily pack the left over for lunch (it is a regular custom) - so you save a lot even from a good eating place
I am learning the culture to pay tip


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## McLovin (20 January 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> You have spent a lot more time in the US than I so i wont doubt you. OUr experiences over there were when comparing apples with apples (or in this case a nice bar's burgers in each country) then it was very similar. Perhaps it is because we specifically sought out places in the US that were known for their food




I guess it depends. America does do dude food better than anywhere else. And it's nice if you're on holiday there, but it's seriously heavy, which is my biggest criticism of American food. They don't seem to know how to work with nuanced taste and so instead they just overload it with fats and oils (which of course will taste nice!). Some American food is seriously tasty though! Kansas City style BBQ, In and Out Burger etc. Delicious.

I think Australia really does have some of the best food in the world but of course you pay for it. In America once you take into account tax and tip the difference isn't that large. It's like when friends used to come over and to NY and we'd go out and they were impressed how cheap drinks were, until I pointed out you had to tip $1-2/drink.


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## prawn_86 (20 January 2013)

McLovin said:


> I think Australia really does have some of the best food in the world




Me too. The food culture here is amazing and so is the produce. I still think one a like for like basis the US ends up a bit cheaper, but you do have to spend more time trying to source that quality food over there also imo


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## drsmith (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> If the USA and Europe introduce carbon taxes on shipping and aviation fuel it would quickly change the economics of a lot of manufacturing.  For 2 decades I've never understood why we use so many resources to ship items from a rich country to a poor then a middle income then poor and finally the finished product is sent back to a rich country.
> 
> Mac computers in the 80s literally traveled to the moon and back when you added up all the miles each component had traveled.
> 
> It might produce cheap goods, but that's because a lot of the negative effects are not costed.



Even if it was a when as opposed to an if, it's still an economic dead weight regardless of other factors increasing energy costs until all other major economies follow through with the when.

The full economic impact of the carbon tax is yet to be seen.


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## FlyingFox (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Shouldn't we want to live in a high wage economy?  I'd hate for us to move towards a US system where people in retail have to work 2 or 3 jobs to get a livable income.  I think we need to have a minimum wage that provides a decent income for a full time worker.




While I agree with your sentiments and we should have decent income, having a *relatively high* minimum wage pushes all other wages and costs higher. Economically this is very uncompetitive.


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> While I agree with your sentiments and we should have decent income, having a *relatively high* minimum wage pushes all other wages and costs higher. Economically this is very uncompetitive.




The Unions bear much responsibility for this state of affairs.

While their leaders earn $2-300,000 pa , they have not really benefitted their members all that much.

Look at the HSU and AWU.

Their only recent achievement has been to rebrand some of the more ineffective ones as "Together" , "Koala" or "Whale".

Workers need protection from predatory bosses, and they ain't being protected by union leaders with an eye on international travel via ALP endorsement for Parliament.

gg


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2013)

Miner said:


> You are right.
> So our kids from year 10 onwards prefer to do the VAT (Vocational Test something for TAFE) than going for year 12 whereas kids of South Asia and South East Asia origin venture for universities. Look at most of the universities and see who are there. Trolley pushers - look who are running there. Well our Aussie kids of British/Australian origin go to TAFE become excellent Fitters, Shot firers (mining), Electricians - earn excellent money to buy big houses but end of the day skill gap remains in other areas.



One of the interesting points is that, at least when I was that age, there was a massive push to the effect that anything other than university was a second rate choice.

I did year 12 and achieved good results but had no interest in going to uni. I did an apprenticeship because Smurf likes electrical things, not because of any financial or social status considerations. So no uni applications but I'm sure I filled out an awful lot of forms (and even a few psychological tests) trying to get an apprenticeship (eventually with success).

The trades would pay less if there was more interest in doing that sort of work. But to a significant extent they do attract people not overly interested in it and who end up doing something else after a few years thus creating a perpetual shortage. If someone becomes a doctor in their mid-late 20's then the odds are fairly high that they'll spend their entire working life, or at least the vast majority of it, in the medical field. But looking at those who were in the same class as me at TAFE, a lot are no longer working as electricians. They've either moved into an electrical-related supervisory or management role or are doing something completely unrelated. I too spend much of my time sitting in an office these days although it's electrical-related and I still work with tools from time to time (by choice since I could quite easily avoid it if I wanted to).

On a different matter, regarding things in the US, I was there on holiday a few months ago. Observations:

1. Cheap food is considerably cheaper in the US than it is in Australia. Returning home, I'd almost forgotten just how expensive something simple like a roll from a take away shop is in Australia. We did an assortment of dining over there, but none of it in the "fine" category - were too busy doing all sorts of other things to worry about food to be honest so I'm not sure what a top restaurant charges. Mid range ones were reasonable value however but not a lot cheaper than Australia once tips and tax are included.

2. Taxis etc are considerably cheaper in the US even when you add tips.

3. Things we bought were generally cheaper, although the extent of the difference varies. If you buy cheap then there's no real saving but if you're buying mid to upper (eg clothes) then that's when things are cheaper in the US.

4. There are a LOT more poor people clearly visible on the streets in the US than there are in Australia. I'm sure I saw more homeless people on the streets of San Francisco than I've seen in all Australian cities combined. A lot more and it's the same in other American cities too. It's not one or two here and there, think dozens or even hundreds per city block in some cases at night.

5. Physical infrastructure in the US looks run down. Go outside the tourist precincts and it quickly becomes very obvious. Things that would be fixed in Australia, such as as footpaths falling apart, are simply left. And there's plenty of old planes (still in use) to be seen at airports too that you'd only find in some sort of museum or exhibition in Australia. Things are run down, that's very obvious once you get even a short distance away from key tourist spots etc.

6. Practically everything you buy, there's an extra charge for some reason. A tax, tip or whatever. Always some reason to ask for more money than the stated price. And in most cases such payments are not optional and you won't know the full amount until it's displayed on the register. Just because the price sticker says $5 doesn't mean you can hand over $5 and walk out of the shop with the item - there will be a tax or some other charge on top that isn't disclosed up front. The only exceptions I spotted were vending machines. 

7. Forced service is a big part of it. Don't want the service? Well that's just tough - you're getting it and paying for it whether you like it or not in many cases. 

Despite all that, it's a great country to visit in my opinion with a lot of diversity. It's also a lot easier, and safer, than you might think. Just don't forget the tips and taxes.


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## sydboy007 (21 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The Unions bear much responsibility for this state of affairs.
> 
> While their leaders earn $2-300,000 pa , they have not really benefitted their members all that much.
> 
> ...




Considering CEOs earn 4-500 times the avg income of their employees I'm not sure blaming only the unions is fair.

The unions may not be perfect, but unfortunately there's not a lot out there offering help to workers, and to argue that collective bargaining is wrong when the individual is up again a large corporation, well we'd all tend to get shafted.

We really need a complete overhaul of the tax system in this country.  Lower taxes at the bottom end of the scale and freeze wages for awhile would do a lot of good.

I don't see any of the major political parties wanting to remove a tasty trough from the tax paying piggies though.  Once you start handing out the money it's nigh impossible to stop


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## Smurf1976 (21 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Considering CEOs earn 4-500 times the avg income of their employees I'm not sure blaming only the unions is fair.



If someone at the top is earning a ridiculous sum then it's hard to take calls for wage restraint seriously. 

Not much more can be said really. A CEO on anything more than $1 million a year is at best provoking the unions and you can't blame them for responding in the inevitable manner. It's like flaunting personal wealth in a poor neighbourhood - that's just a dumb thing to do and almost certain to provoke trouble.


----------



## DocK (25 January 2013)

> *Manufacturing needs to change or face ruin: Combet*
> Federal Industry Minister Greg Combet has sent an ultimatum to the struggling Australian manufacturing industry, calling for the sector to change its business model or risk collapse, according to The Australian.
> 
> According to the newspaper, Mr Combet told manufactures hoping for a fall in the Australian dollar and resulting improved conditions to adjust to the realities of the economy.
> ...



http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Manufacturing-needs-to-change-or-face-ruin-Comebt-pd20130125-49R5C?OpenDocument&src=am&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=169675&utm_campaign=am&modapt=news

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/adapt-or-sink-greg-combet-warns-industry/story-fn59niix-1226561351777


> Industries and businesses that succeed are going to be those that develop new technologies, new processes, that innovate, that apply technology to their manufacturing processes for example," he said. "And part of all of that is to develop a closer relationship between business and especially manufacturing and our research community and that is going to be a focus of our statement.
> 
> "We have a world-class research sector but we don't perform as well as other countries in ensuring that our research effort is translated into positive business and economic outcomes."




My interpretation:  "Suck it up Princess, you're going to have to compete with cheap overseas labour costs indefinately".  In our business we've invested in new technology to the point where we've reduced our workforce by two-thirds - and the end result has been Aussie jobs lost and we're still competing with cheap overseas imports made using the same technology, but with far cheaper overheads.


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## Julia (25 January 2013)

DocK said:


> My interpretation:  "Suck it up Princess, you're going to have to compete with cheap overseas labour costs indefinately".  In our business we've invested in new technology to the point where we've reduced our workforce by two-thirds - and the end result has been Aussie jobs lost and we're still competing with cheap overseas imports made using the same technology, but with far cheaper overheads.



Dock, how is the carbon tax affecting your business?   Too early to tell?


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## prawn_86 (25 January 2013)

450 jobs lost at a transport company

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-25/trucking-firm-to-shed-450-jobs/4484618


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## DocK (25 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Dock, how is the carbon tax affecting your business?   Too early to tell?




A couple of suppliers have raised prices due to the effect of the carbon tax, but not dramatically.  We've negotiated a good discount on electricity through AGL and have not seen any price rise as yet.  Most of our profit comes from our expertise rather than a markup on raw materials so it's the lack of sales volume that's hurting us most.  Our main impediment is a sluggish economy, vastly reduced building activity, lack of luxury boat sales and competition with much cheaper imported finished products.  

The beginning of the year until Easter is traditionally our quieter period, and it's actually looking more positive than same period last year - so far.  Last July/Aug/Sept were our worst months in 12 years, but we're beginning to hear a bit of optimism from some of the larger businesses we provide services to, so here's hoping that the worst is behind us!  We're luckier than some in our industry in that we have been able to diversify into different markets to offset the effect of vastly reduced volumes in others.  Unfortunately, a lot of the cabinetmakers we've dealt with for several years have either gone into liquidation, closed their doors or drastically downsized.  The luxury boat builders likewise.  Mr Combet can tell them to embrace technology all he likes, but it's hard for a cabinetmaker to compete with Bunnings when they're importing complete kitchen setups from China.


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## sydboy007 (28 January 2013)

DocK said:


> A couple of suppliers have raised prices due to the effect of the carbon tax, but not dramatically.  We've negotiated a good discount on electricity through AGL and have not seen any price rise as yet.  Most of our profit comes from our expertise rather than a markup on raw materials so it's the lack of sales volume that's hurting us most.  Our main impediment is a sluggish economy, vastly reduced building activity, lack of luxury boat sales and competition with much cheaper imported finished products.
> 
> The beginning of the year until Easter is traditionally our quieter period, and it's actually looking more positive than same period last year - so far.  Last July/Aug/Sept were our worst months in 12 years, but we're beginning to hear a bit of optimism from some of the larger businesses we provide services to, so here's hoping that the worst is behind us!  We're luckier than some in our industry in that we have been able to diversify into different markets to offset the effect of vastly reduced volumes in others.  Unfortunately, a lot of the cabinetmakers we've dealt with for several years have either gone into liquidation, closed their doors or drastically downsized.  The luxury boat builders likewise.  Mr Combet can tell them to embrace technology all he likes, but it's hard for a cabinetmaker to compete with Bunnings when they're importing complete kitchen setups from China.




What do u suggest as a solution to this?

Do we raise the tarrif walls again?

On aggreggate terms we all benefit from free trade between nations.

At the micro level there are always winners and losers.

I still have bitter memories of dubya bush giving tax incentives for US companies to move jobs back to the USA.  My company at the time decided they'd take advantage of that and move the Syd AsiaPAC NOC back to the USA.

They'd have probably only been in front for a year or 2 as from what my boss told me we did something like twice the volume of work per USD of costs as the yanks did.  We also had higher levels of satisfaction from customers.

I've worked at 2 truly global companies with networks spanning the globe - actually worked for the company with the largest network presence - and I can assure you that Aussie workers just get it done, don't work to the line of the rules, and when there's a problem we will generally fix things then ask the hard questions later.  The yanks and europeans become so specialised they lose the ability to see the big picture.  I'm coming from an IT network background, but would assume what I have experienced would be similar for a lot of other industries.


----------



## CanOz (28 January 2013)

You know whats going to bring home the jobs in the US?

Energy costs. Is there an opportunity for Australia too?

CanOz


----------



## white_goodman (28 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> We really need a complete overhaul of the tax system in this country.  Lower taxes at the bottom end of the scale and freeze wages for awhile would do a lot of good.
> 
> I don't see any of the major political parties wanting to remove a tasty trough from the tax paying piggies though.  Once you start handing out the money it's nigh impossible to stop




yes we need an overhaul but I hardly think creating more inequality(steepening progressive taxation) is the answer


----------



## DocK (28 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> What do u suggest as a solution to this?



Dunno.  I'm neither an economist nor a politician.  I just know it's bloody tough for _little_ businesses at the moment, without much light at the end of the tunnel.  I wish I could have a "lightbulb moment" and come up with a brilliant idea to save all of those small Aussie businesses that are doing it tough, but I'm just not that smart.  



sydboy007 said:


> Do we raise the tarrif walls again?
> 
> On aggreggate terms we all benefit from free trade between nations..



Agreed.  My business, and those of most of my customers, would be helped by protectionist measures, but I agree that that course is simply not necessarily in the best interests of the nation as a whole.  What helps one industry would probably hurt another, and there are many intricate diplomatic and political considerations involved also





sydboy007 said:


> At the micro level there are always winners and losers.



Indeed.  It would appear that the manufacturing industry, especially at the small end, is going to be one of the big losers.



sydboy007 said:


> I still have bitter memories of dubya bush giving tax incentives for US companies to move jobs back to the USA.  My company at the time decided they'd take advantage of that and move the Syd AsiaPAC NOC back to the USA.
> 
> They'd have probably only been in front for a year or 2 as from what my boss told me we did something like twice the volume of work per USD of costs as the yanks did.  We also had higher levels of satisfaction from customers.
> 
> I've worked at 2 truly global companies with networks spanning the globe - actually worked for the company with the largest network presence - and I can assure you that Aussie workers just get it done, don't work to the line of the rules, and when there's a problem we will generally fix things then ask the hard questions later.  The yanks and europeans become so specialised they lose the ability to see the big picture.  I'm coming from an IT network background, but would assume what I have experienced would be similar for a lot of other industries.




There's a big difference between working for a very large IT company and running a small service/manufacturing business....  Aussie workers may indeed be superior in every way to their European or American counterparts (although that's very arbitrary), but that won't help them if there are no jobs for them.  In my industry we are being forced to compete with imported products and materials that have been produced overseas at a vastly lower cost, imported into Australia and sold by retailing behomoths.  It is simply not possible to compete on a like-for-like basis whilst paying Australian wages, factory rent, electricity costs and raw material costs.  That's simply the way it is.  No amount of "Aussie workers just get it done" attitude is going to make a scrap of difference to the numbers.  Therefore, our industry needs to innovate, develop niche markets, and concentrate on those aspects that either we're superior in, or the service aspect that can't simply be imported.  The buying public is increasingly less reluctant to pay more $s for quality, and our throw-away culture seems happy to pay much less for often inferior imported products - so we're struggling to expand, or even retain, our marketshare.  "Innovate or perish" is all well and good, but if your marketplace is shrinking there simply won't be room for as many sellers.  That's just the way it is, and I can't see any obvious solution.  A lot of SMEs will cease to exist, along with the skills that were required in them.  Should Australia ever find itself in a position where those skills are required in a big way, we may regret their loss.


----------



## IFocus (28 January 2013)

CanOz said:


> You know whats going to bring home the jobs in the US?
> 
> Energy costs. Is there an opportunity for Australia too?
> 
> CanOz




The shale gas / oil in the US is massive with massive environment issues further down the road but yes it will quite likely become the spark to ignite US consumption / economy again.

The effect on OZ will be two fold one we develop our own shale gas and two the price of oil / gas comes down affecting the likes of WPL etc ....maybe.


----------



## MR. (28 January 2013)

DocK said:


> It is simply not possible to compete on a like-for-like basis whilst paying Australian wages, factory rent, electricity costs and raw material costs.




Yes we pay higher for all four. I couldn't buy the material in bulk for some of the components I've made in the past when compared with what I could have imported "Finished". Even if you wanted to compete it was impossible on many products. However, a market at the time, was found eliminating the middle man. As you have pointed out the “majors” import more and more directly reflecting even cheaper prices.

Most manufacturing on the Gold Coast outside of boats would be building associated. Your business is making cabinets? We (the Gold Coast) are the hardest hit area in Australia for building. Councils reduced the PIP charges and we do have lower interest rates, can only help some. You've reduced staff/wages by 2/3's by installing automated machinery. What about your rent? Or is that not a high expenditure for you? Many of these investors which pumped up our property prices and "rents" are now wanting out! In our case it is cheaper to buy, can only make us more competitive in the future instead of being locked into rents increasing PA. You could have the opposite.

With less work to go around I think “how can I be better than the next Australian”.  Sad conclusion, as I wasn’t always this way.  I've been in manufacturing for too long.


----------



## clowboy (28 January 2013)

IFocus said:


> The shale gas / oil in the US is massive with massive environment issues further down the road but yes it will quite likely become the spark to ignite US consumption / economy again.
> 
> The effect on OZ will be two fold one we develop our own shale gas and two the price of oil / gas comes down affecting the likes of WPL etc ....maybe.




or it stimulates the US economy, in turn stimulating the global economy, in turn raises oil prices and WPL goes up......


----------



## DocK (28 January 2013)

MR. said:


> Yes we pay higher for all four. I couldn't buy the material in bulk for some of the components I've made in the past when compared with what I could have imported "Finished". Even if you wanted to compete it was impossible on many products. However, a market at the time, was found eliminating the middle man. As you have pointed out the “majors” import more and more directly reflecting even cheaper prices.
> 
> Most manufacturing on the Gold Coast outside of boats would be building associated. Your business is making cabinets? We (the Gold Coast) are the hardest hit area in Australia for building. Councils reduced the PIP charges and we do have lower interest rates, can only help some. You've reduced staff/wages by 2/3's by installing automated machinery. What about your rent? Or is that not a high expenditure for you? Many of these investors which pumped up our property prices and "rents" are now wanting out! In our case it is cheaper to buy, can only make us more competitive in the future instead of being locked into rents increasing PA. You could have the opposite.
> 
> With less work to go around I think “how can I be better than the next Australian”.  Sad conclusion, as I wasn’t always this way.  I've been in manufacturing for too long.




I hear ya.  We're not cabinetmakers, but are closely alligned to that industry.  Luckily we're a bit more diversified.

So far as rent is concerned, we're fortunate in that our SMSF purchased the factory from which we operate several years ago - so our business pays rent to our SMSF.  

I think there are a lot of us in our last decade or so of running our businesses that echo your sentiment:  "I've been in manufacturing for too long".  As we retire, or give up and close our doors, I think a lot will struggle to find buyers for businesses that are becoming obsolete.  Perhaps if China is somehow forced/enticed to allow free floating of their currency matters might improve - but I'm not holding my breath.  The nature of the workforce in Australia will change over time, it seems inevitable.  When ever anyone asks if our kids are likely to take over the "family business" we're quick to say "hell, no!".


----------



## tech/a (28 January 2013)

DocK

What % of Market share do you think you have?

Those who DO buy off you---Why?

Do you trade out of the Gold coast as well?--How far?

Your diversified areas
Are they growing faster than the core business.

Are there sectors that can be dropped.

Look at your business from the 80/20 perspective.

Which 20% is giving you the 80% return.


----------



## sydboy007 (28 January 2013)

DocK said:


> I hear ya.  We're not cabinetmakers, but are closely alligned to that industry.  Luckily we're a bit more diversified.
> 
> So far as rent is concerned, we're fortunate in that our SMSF purchased the factory from which we operate several years ago - so our business pays rent to our SMSF.
> 
> I think there are a lot of us in our last decade or so of running our businesses that echo your sentiment:  "I've been in manufacturing for too long".  As we retire, or give up and close our doors, I think a lot will struggle to find buyers for businesses that are becoming obsolete.  Perhaps if China is somehow forced/enticed to allow free floating of their currency matters might improve - but I'm not holding my breath.  The nature of the workforce in Australia will change over time, it seems inevitable.  When ever anyone asks if our kids are likely to take over the "family business" we're quick to say "hell, no!".




China is already getting "expensive" when compared to Indonesia or Vietnam.

Economies change over the years.  I think most people on this web site would agree we've generally benefited from free trade, and probably more than a lot of other countries due to the sclerotic nature of manufacturing in the country in the 80s.

We need to focus on areas where price is less  a facotr.  Look at Cochlear or CSL.  They've been able to grow globally dominant business based on their know how.

We have some of the best small bio medical companies with novel products out there.  Phosphagen and Sirtext to just name a couple I am very familiar with.  We need to encourage these companies a lot more, and to help other in the field to develop their basic research and commercialise it.

We have sophisticated wealth management expertise, a lot of design nouse too.

We may not be a nation of shop keepers in 30 years, but I do hope we've been able to reshape the economy to take advantage of our strengths and provide the opportunities for the next generation.

We're too small an economy to fight the changes being forced on us.  We just have to make best with the hand that is dealt us.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 January 2013)

I can see both sides of the tariffs debate. The upside of free trade is well documented but what about the downsides?

Ignoring your own position on whether or not CO2 is a problem, consider the carbon tax debate. The only thing which prevents Australia from taking action to reduce its' own emissions is free trade. With free trade, taxing energy-intensive industry here just results in it relocating offshore thus removing any environmental benefit and sending Australia broke in the process.

Energy is more of a key than most seem to realise. Cheap electricity underpinned the Vic, Tas and SA economies for decades and more recently it has been a key pillar in Qld as well. And look what's happening right now in the USA with the gas boom over there. It's not China with low wages etc that will take these industries off our hands. Penrice Soda (for example) is switching from local production to imports from the US.

Free trade has its' good points I agree. But it does prevent any one country, even the likes of the US or China, from taking action to address things like the environment. Even things like health and safety are starting to feel the same pressure - there's a limit to how much you can spend on safety when you have to compete against others with no safety laws whatsoever.

There are only two things that could possibly save manufacturing in Australia in my opinion:

1. The AUD needs to fall sharply

2. A return to cheap energy. 

Neither are likely in the short term, and the latter is strongly at odds with the current policy of the Australian government as well as every state so it's not likely to happen either. RIP manufacturing as a result.


----------



## DocK (28 January 2013)

tech/a said:


> DocK
> 
> What % of Market share do you think you have?
> 
> ...




Yes, Tech, these are the questions we've spent a good bit of time on over the past couple of years.  Our business has altered and adapted accordingly.  As I said, we're a bit more diversified than some of our contemporaries, which has allowed us to weather the GFC, where a lot have sadly bitten the dust.  We're also open to change, which is essential these days I think, as there are plenty of examples of the "dinosaurs" who've refused to change their way of business and have suffered accordingly.  Adaptability can only take you so far though. 

 We've expanded into new areas, both technical and geographical, so far as has been practical so far.  Our "edge" is our expertise (developed over many years and not easily replicated by competitors) and this is where our focus lies.  We're able to do jobs that are just too intricate or difficult for others, and this is the area that we need to exploit to the fullest.


----------



## MR. (28 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> The only thing which prevents Australia from taking action to reduce its' own emissions is free trade. With free trade, taxing energy-intensive industry here just results in it relocating offshore thus removing any environmental benefit and sending Australia broke in the process.



and many local companies become even more less competitive. 



Smurf1976 said:


> 1. The AUD needs to fall sharply
> 
> RIP manufacturing as a result.




The AUD needs to fall!

and additionally as docK mentioned a "Free float from China" would help. But someone else will step up to the plate!


----------



## DocK (28 January 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> I can see both sides of the tariffs debate. The upside of free trade is well documented but what about the downsides?
> 
> Ignoring your own position on whether or not CO2 is a problem, consider the carbon tax debate. The only thing which prevents Australia from taking action to reduce its' own emissions is free trade. With free trade, taxing energy-intensive industry here just results in it relocating offshore thus removing any environmental benefit and sending Australia broke in the process.
> 
> ...




Completely agree with all points, Smurf.

One of my sons had an economics assignment at school based around the various effects of the introduction of the Carbon Tax - I took the opportunity to have a good old rant about how I thought it would affect his own parents, and many other small Oz businesses.  I guess some of what I said made it into his written work because the next time I saw his eco teacher she gave me a big wink and said she completely agreed with "his" viewpoint.:


----------



## sydboy007 (28 January 2013)

DocK said:


> Completely agree with all points, Smurf.
> 
> One of my sons had an economics assignment at school based around the various effects of the introduction of the Carbon Tax - I took the opportunity to have a good old rant about how I thought it would affect his own parents, and many other small Oz businesses.  I guess some of what I said made it into his written work because the next time I saw his eco teacher she gave me a big wink and said she completely agreed with "his" viewpoint.:




Is a return to cheap energy a wise thing to do?

How cheap is cheap?

How does Australian manufacturing stack up in terms of energy efficiency with other high wage countries?  Would we be better off focusing on improving the efficiency of manufacturing that subsidising the cheap energy?

Who will provide the cheap energy?

We have Liberal Govts on the east coast now and they're all doing things that seem to be going in the direction of sending energy costs higher over the medium to long term.  QLD has pretty much sold all CSG gas production for export.  NSW has dug it's head in the sand and brought the CSG exploration to a complete stand still.  A lot of VIC gas production is headed to QLD for export to top up any shortfall in production.

Do we stop some of the CSG exports from QLD and force them back into the domestic market?  Who will compensate the shareholders for the lower income received?  Should the NSW Govt stop pandering to the nationals and allow CSG exploration away from agricultural land, as well as removing their restrictive wind farm policy for vetoes by anyone living within 2KM?


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Is a return to cheap energy a wise thing to do?
> 
> How cheap is cheap?
> 
> ...



Whether or not it is wise depends on what the alternatives are. Cheap energy was for a long time one of the key pillars of the Australian economy, and the only real competitive advantage in Vic, Tas and to some extent SA. It also played a big role in Qld.

Whether or not we ought to go back to that is best answered by a question. What other advantages does Australia actually have? A lot of cheaply extracted iron ore is about the only non-energy one that comes to mind which is large in scale, likely to last a while and not already maxed out or about to be (eg agriculture / water).

If not energy then what does make us competitive?

How cheap is cheap? Competitive internationally. The old benchmark that the utilities used to use was simply to look around the world and see what was on offer then try to beat it. That resulted in Australia having the most efficient fossil fuel power plants in the world as a direct result. 

As for how energy efficient our manufacturing is, it varies. There are producers which are quite efficient but who are walking away (eg Penrice soda) and there are others that are less efficient. We're certainly not bottom of the heap on any measure I've ever seen.

Who would provide it? Well there lies the single biggest problem this country is going to face.The gas is being sold off as fast as possible and we're rapidly heading the same way with coal too. In the event that export prices rise, and that's certainly a risk, it means Australian power bills will also go through the roof. The end result? Probably very similar to what happened in several states in the first part of the 20th Century and which is now being done in a roundabout fashion with the NBN. Nationalisation of energy infrastructure and resources. 

In a more general sense, we're in a rather strange era which seems to be heading toward some sort of "end game". I mean, look at the overall economy and it seems ridiculously unsustainable in every way. Losing key industries, selling off natural resources as fast we can, running up debts and so on. None of that seems sustainable to me.


----------



## tech/a (28 January 2013)

Doc

Certainly not wanting to come across as telling you what to do.

But 2 things have helped me dramatically.

(1) presence on the net, we changed our server and forgot to launch our website.
A friend alerted us that it wasn't up.
In the 3 weeks the site was down it was like the phones were down.
70% downturn. When it came back on line it took 2 days to pick back up.

Forget Yellow pages!!!

(2) develop relationships we do this face to face. Once we have a developed relationship competitors regardless of price just don't get a look in.
Ever tried to get in somewhere where a relationship with a competitor has been developed?


I wish you the best of business.
It's tough out there.


----------



## DocK (29 January 2013)

tech/a said:


> Doc
> 
> Certainly not wanting to come across as telling you what to do.
> 
> ...




Thanks, Tech

We don't deal with the public much, most of our business is as the middle-man and most of our customers are businesses - our profits come mostly from large volume work, so Mum & Dad public are mainly just nuisance work.  We've never bothered with Yellow Pages as 90% of our work comes from word-of-mouth referals, or the relationships that you describe.  

We finally launched a website a year or so ago, when work started to drop off.  We were in the fortunate position of having more work than we could handle until a year or two ago, so advertising was not at the top of our "to do" list.  We've found the website to be a great marketing tool - even if simply as a link you can direct potential customers to so they can see what we do, and view some of our finished products and customer testimonials etc.  Lately we're finding an increasing % of new work coming via the website, so we're very pleased we made that move.  Gotta keep up with the times

Surprisingly, we've actually picked up a fair amount of work via an Ebay store.  We listed a couple of generic products on Ebay a couple of years ago more as a "what the hell, it can't hurt" exercise - and the response has been surprisingly good.  

One of our main problems is ourselves , as we're not the best "marketers".  The spouse and I are both pretty good at what we do, but neither of us is comfortable or keen on cold calling prospective new clients, and the whole "networking" deal.  Fortunately our "customer satisfaction" score is high, so we do get a lot of referal work from our existing customer base.  It's an area that we're just going to have to get comfortable with if things don't improve - or we might look at a sales rep.

Thanks for the good wishes - and back at ya!  One of the silver linings of recent times is that a lot of the "cowboys" have disappeared, and business relationships between suppliers, customers and even competitors have been made stronger in a lot of cases.


----------



## Trembling Hand (29 January 2013)

tech/a said:


> (1) presence on the net, we changed our server and forgot to launch our website.
> A friend alerted us that it wasn't up.
> In the 3 weeks the site was down it was like the phones were down.
> 70% downturn. When it came back on line it took 2 days to pick back up.




Jees that is some sloppy work Tech?


----------



## tech/a (29 January 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Jees that is some sloppy work Tech?




Sure was very costly.
The cost of delegation.

*DocK*

I also work with the larger side of town
Civil guys. Many dont know us,on a level that is
conducive to continued support.
Weve been doing what we do for 30 yrs
and the people we deal with "These days"
may only be in the job for a few months.
We are for ever building new relationships.

Mind you many who move to other companies take us with them (as a contact).

It really is a continual slug.
Worth it as the less aggressive fall by the way.


----------



## DocK (29 January 2013)

tech/a said:


> Mind you many who move to other companies take us with them (as a contact).
> It really is a continual slug.
> Worth it as the less aggressive fall by the way.




Yes, this is common in our area also.  It also pays to get to know who is genuinely going to send work your way, and who is just using you as a pricing mechanism.  We've found that our reputation for top notch workmanship and reliability is the major thing that has worked for us, and is worth protecting at all costs.   It's also something that can't be imported cheaply from overseas

I didn't mention something that is giving us, and a lot of our associates in small business land, hope - an election.  Just read this http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/How-Abbott-would-lay-a-new-foundation-for-Australi-pd20130129-4DSH5?opendocument&src=idp&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=171553&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary and my first thought was "bring it on!"


----------



## Julia (29 January 2013)

DocK said:


> I didn't mention something that is giving us, and a lot of our associates in small business land, hope - an election.  Just read this and my first thought was "bring it on!"



It sounds good, and not just for business.
It's a relief to see the opposition bringing out something positive.  Hopefully more of the same to come.


----------



## Bushman (21 February 2013)

Telstra is set to axe up to 650 jobs from Sensis, reports say.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/telstra-to-axe-650-jobs-reports-20130221-2esmj.html#ixzz2LU2XNMij

Its always the banality of these statements that get to me. These are 650 individuals who may well have kids, mortgages and limited choices who have just had their lives upended. How long will it take this 650 to re-integrate into the workforce? Or will they be forced into lower paying jobs in different industries? Shrug 

In the 24 hour news cycle, they are the faceless sound byte that will be instantaneously forgotten. 

PS - job cuts at Amcor too. Down down, employment is down ...


----------



## tech/a (21 February 2013)

> Its always the banality of these statements that get to me.




Unfortunately I dont know of anyway of making the news softer.
I have at times had to cut a lot of my own staff and these people are good hard working people who have done nothing wrong.If the work isnt there we cant run the presses to print money to pay them.

I guess Police have the same problem when informing people of deaths from accidents etc and
Doctors letting you know you or a loved one have cancer.

Life can be cruel.


----------



## Julia (21 February 2013)

Bushman said:


> Telstra is set to axe up to 650 jobs from Sensis, reports say.
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/telstra-to-axe-650-jobs-reports-20130221-2esmj.html#ixzz2LU2XNMij
> 
> Its always the banality of these statements that get to me.



I understand what you're saying, Bushman.
Does the company have any option?  They have an obligation to maximise profit and if business conditions change and people become redundant, I suppose there's no nice way of managing this.


----------



## boofis (21 February 2013)

Julia said:


> I understand what you're saying, Bushman.
> Does the company have any option?  They have an obligation to maximise profit and if business conditions change and people become redundant, I suppose there's no nice way of managing this.




Really, is it an obligation?
"In 2011-12, total revenue was $25.4 billion and reported EBITDA was $10.2 billion." from the telstra site directly. 
Why shouldn't they maintain profit rather than grow it? Perpetual growth has to be one of the biggest fallacies of the modern world.


----------



## againsthegrain (21 February 2013)

Julia said:


> I understand what you're saying, Bushman.
> Does the company have any option?  They have an obligation to maximise profit and if business conditions change and people become redundant, I suppose there's no nice way of managing this.




Those jobs are going to be outsourced as usual to overseas. In a capitalist economy thats how it goes, but as for pointing fingers and blame game alot of people have themselves to blame for it. Our dollar has gone so high and is constantly being fuelled by people asking for more, constant strikes for more, wanting to sell their houses for more but when it comes to paying up they will shop online and complain prices are high.

Unfortunately you can't have it both ways and the effects of people's greed are starting to show


----------



## Trembling Hand (21 February 2013)

boofis said:


> Really, is it an obligation?




YES


----------



## drsmith (21 February 2013)

In the broadest possible context, growth is a natural result of evolution. Evolution suffers though from a lot of growth into dead ends.

In that, evolution and business seem to have a lot in common, but there's nothing wrong with growth as a fundamental principal.


----------



## Aussiejeff (21 February 2013)

> Origin lays off 850 staff to counter profit fall
> Updated 13 minutes ago
> 
> MAP: Australia
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-21/origin-says-850-staff-going-to-counter-profit-fall/4532188

And so it goes......more jobs eh, Juliar?


----------



## boofis (21 February 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> YES




Lies! 

& 

Dr smith growth isn't a result of evolution, evolution is just a term to describe processes/events that involve growth and decline. As you so rightly almost pointed out, nothing can continually grow forever.


----------



## tech/a (21 February 2013)

boofis said:


> Lies!
> 
> &
> 
> Dr smith growth isn't a result of evolution, evolution is just a term to describe processes/events that involve growth and decline. As you so rightly almost pointed out, nothing can continually grow forever.




I dont know about that the Yanks seem to think they can have an endless debt growth rate.


----------



## boofis (21 February 2013)

tech/a said:


> I dont know about that the Yanks seem to think they can have an endless debt growth rate.




Haha, true, I stand corrected.


----------



## Trembling Hand (21 February 2013)

boofis said:


> Lies!




You may want to look up on your corporate law but here is a start,

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Your+company+and+the+law?openDocument

See what the responsibilities are of a director. Its pretty simple. Act in the best interests of the COMPANY. That many times includes reducing your expensive and workforce when your business or part there of is reducing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 February 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> See what the responsibilities are of a director. Its pretty simple. Act in the best interests of the COMPANY. That many times includes reducing your expensive and workforce when your business or part there of is reducing.



Understand what you are saying, but reducing the workforce and maximising short term profit is not always in the best interests of the company overall.

1. Supplier of parts we use at work. It's a multi-national company which historically (and still does) manufacture some items in Australia.

In short, they outsourced production of some components to someone in China. Suffice to say that there were quality control problems, which turned up as reliability problems with the equipment we purchase. Failure rates were unacceptable and cost $.

End result is that we have discontinued a 32 year exclusive relationship with this supplier and gone directly to a competitor. I also know as fact that at least 70% (possibly higher) of their Australian customers are now obtaining some or all of their purchases from one of the two main rival companies. It's possible that the other 30% might be as well - it's just that I haven't contacted them to ask so not sure about what they're doing.

Whatever they saved by manufacturing in China, they have lost 100+ times over through loss of ongoing business. The odds are we'll never go back to them. Consumers might be willing to muck about with dodgy parts, but professional users sure aren't interested in anything that's not up to scratch.

For the record, the new supplier manufactures in Victoria.

2. Origin Energy were mentioned earlier in this thread as getting rid of a lot of staff.

I expect that rival electricity retailers will have smile on their face at this news. Origin already has a poor reputation for customer service.


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## Trembling Hand (21 February 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Understand what you are saying, but reducing the workforce and maximising short term profit is not always in the best interests of the company overall.




We are talking about Sensis here. When was the last time anyone used a printed phone book? I haven't even used the on-line version in years. Google is far better.

The only person I know of who has used the yellow pages was my ex's dad. He used to have it in the car and I asked him one day what do you need that for? He said,



> You never know when you will be caught short in a public place without dunny paper
> :flush:




Better to sack 1/4 of your workforce than jeopardise all of them plus your suppliers and shareholders.


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## boofis (22 February 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> You may want to look up on your corporate law but here is a start,
> 
> http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Your+company+and+the+law?openDocument
> 
> See what the responsibilities are of a director. Its pretty simple. Act in the best interests of the COMPANY. That many times includes reducing your expensive and workforce when your business or part there of is reducing.




So the employees don't comprise any part of the COMPANY? Really?


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## Vixs (22 February 2013)

boofis said:


> So the employees don't comprise any part of the COMPANY? Really?




Staff are an expense, shareholders and owners are capital.

From a management perspective, treating staff as an asset and investing in their skills and training might be a prudent way to get the most productivity out of them, but from a financial perspective they are and will always be an expense.

Employees are paid for their time to complete tasks that generate or enable the generation of revenue for the company's shareholders. All the fuzzy feelings and investment in the future, staff rewards blah blah blah, are all a means of extracting greater productivity to improve the profit and loss statement and make the business ratios look better.

That's the core of it. It's not nice, but it's not personal.


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## medicowallet (22 February 2013)

Vixs said:


> Staff are an expense, shareholders and owners are capital.
> 
> From a management perspective, treating staff as an asset and investing in their skills and training might be a prudent way to get the most productivity out of them, but from a financial perspective they are and will always be an expense.
> 
> ...




HEY THERE!!

Don't post this realistic understanding of employees.

If any of my employees read this they will start stealing more stuff than they already do to justify their self importance 

MW
Signed in many years ago


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## Smurf1976 (22 February 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Better to sack 1/4 of your workforce than jeopardise all of them plus your suppliers and shareholders.



My point is whether or not sacking the workers is a means to an actual turnaround? Or is it just a slow spiral to the bottom?

What they really need to do is grow revenue and if cutting staff hampers that then, in the long term, it's not going to work. They need to reinvent themselves not simply cut costs and keep doing what they've always done.


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## Smurf1976 (22 February 2013)

Vixs said:


> Staff are an expense, shareholders and owners are capital



Depending on circumstances, the intellectual property that sits with the staff can be the main value of the company. Obviously that's not always the case, but there are situations where it is.

If it's all in the heads of a dozen key staff then you're pretty much stuffed if they all walk out the door.

Reminds me of a situation where literally all the employees (of which there were only half a dozen) were in a lottery syndicate with the potential prize being enough that most (all?) would probably have left their jobs if they had won. Management practically **** themselves when they found out that a lotto draw on Saturday night was in fact a credible threat to the business which they could do nothing about.


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## Trembling Hand (23 February 2013)

Smurf you are talking about examples that are on the margins. Bottom line its not management that has sacked these staff its you, me and boofis as voting consumers that has caused the staff to be sacked. Its a service that we simple do not purchase any more. And never will again no matter what smart and bright things the company does. We simply do not open our wallets and hand over the hard earned to Sensis and a lot of these company anymore and with that we are directly saying 'service providers you and your staff are sacked'.

Thats the way its always been. It a necessity to innovation and the great comfortable live we all live as a community, in spite of individuals struggle from time to time. We vote winners with our wallets. In this case we have very clearly voted for google over the yellow pages. 

You cannot whinge about companies and their employees being voted off the island when its us who demand the change.


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> You cannot whinge about companies and their employees being voted off the island when its us who demand the change.



Talk to just about anyone and you'll find that there's a fair degree of dislike for foreign call centres, to the point that some companies (Commonwealth Bank being among them) use the simple existence of Australian call centres as part of their marketing strategy.

I don't deny for a moment that Sensis' print based business model is effectively dead. But sending the call centres off shore takes it from "don't need anymore" to "actively avoid" in the minds of many. It's almost beyond belief that anyone would _choose_ to call one of those Indian call centres unless they really had to.

For the record, my original post was nothing to do with Sensis. I mentioned Origin Energy but was primarily referring to your post about the responsibilities of a director being toward the company rather than employees. I agree with that point, but in many cases "cost cutting" is not in the best interests of the company if the resultant brand damage exceeds the money saved through the cost cutting.


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## boofis (24 February 2013)

TH you are right, it's clear that the physical yellow and white pages are outdated but I still use the online ones all the time; my last search was bricklayers in melbourne only last week. 

Telstra 698 cuts and 391 roles heading to the Phillipines or Indonesia. That's not about consumers voting with their wallets, that's management wanting to vote with their own wallets, no? Why not start a call centre here? Australian workers cost too much? Too much red tape?

The extremely frustrating thing for me is the acceptance of this pattern across all sectors; get our food from everywhere else around the world, get our services from everywhere else around the world, get our infrastructure from everywhere else around the world, etc.

And I do agree, alot, but not all, of it boils down to people voting with their wallets, and this is where the ordinary person needs to realise we need to start being willing to pay more (e.g. the actual value) for everything according to how much a developed country citizen expects to be paid or just learn to accept being paid less.

Slave like wages paid to off shore workers may get us a cheap product/service/whatever in the here and now, but it will bend us over in the long run as in the case of the aforementioned.


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## DocK (24 February 2013)

boofis said:


> The extremely frustrating thing for me is the acceptance of this pattern across all sectors; get our food from everywhere else around the world, get our services from everywhere else around the world, get our infrastructure from everywhere else around the world, etc.
> 
> And I do agree, alot, but not all, of it boils down to people voting with their wallets, and this is where the ordinary person needs to realise we need to start being willing to pay more (e.g. the actual value) for everything according to how much a developed country citizen expects to be paid or just learn to accept being paid less.
> 
> Slave like wages paid to off shore workers may get us a cheap product/service/whatever in the here and now, but it will bend us over in the long run as in the case of the aforementioned.




I went to our nearest Masters Home Imp conglomerate last weekend - between them and Bunnings it is now possible to buy your entire kitchen, including cabinetry, appliances, sinks, ovens, fridges, window treatments - you name it.  Now I know these businesses are simply doing what big business does, but between them they're putting so much pressure on small businesses by simply taking away their market.  It's next to impossible for small business to compete with their buying power.  I have visions of us becoming a land where Woolies and Wesfarmers will one day dominate totally.  (yes, I own shares in both)

I'll acknowledge that my sympathies naturally lie with small businesses, but it struck me as wrong that two such large organisations have the power to put so many ordinary people out of work simply by their neverending expansion into new product lines of cheap imported products bought at a discount due to their huge volumes.   In my business I've seen many cabinet makers have to shut their doors over the past few years - the employees they've had to make redundant often receive sympathy, but their employers are often regarded as money-grubbing "bosses" out to screw every last ounce of blood out of their employees and then casting them off without a care.  Most of the time nothing is further from the truth - but the same people who accuse small business of not paying high enough wages, or providing grand enough working conditions, are often totally shocked that their jobs rely on their employers making enough profit to be viable, and to continue to cover their wages!   Meanwhile, we all spend our hard-earned $$$s online, or at the dreaded conglomerates, rather than at the Mum & Dad businesses that struggle to compete due to their high overheads.  I can't really see an answer and the white light at the end of the tunnel is most likely the train of progress come to finish small business off for good

Btw - I was at Masters to see if their garden section was any better than the local Bunnings, as they drove my local garden centre out of business years ago.......


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## FxTrader (25 February 2013)

boofis said:


> Telstra 698 cuts and 391 roles heading to the Phillipines or Indonesia. That's not about consumers voting with their wallets, that's management wanting to vote with their own wallets, no? Why not start a call centre here? Australian workers cost too much? Too much red tape?




As an ex-Telstra staffer I can say that you are referring to the tip of the iceberg with respect to outsourcing there.  An inside joke was that Telstra was primarily an external contract management company.  Where they don't outsource directly they use proxies like IBM where much of their IT support is now contracted to.  IBM then transfers this work to India (outsourcing by stealth).  Thousands of well paid IT jobs have been axed this way.



> The extremely frustrating thing for me is the acceptance of this pattern across all sectors; get our food from everywhere else around the world, get our services from everywhere else around the world, get our infrastructure from everywhere else around the world, etc..




Such is the wonderful world of the "services" based economy.  We are going down the same path as the US and this is one reason why the (real) unemployment rate in the US remains so high.  History shows that the vast majority of offshored jobs will never come back.  As long as the AUD remains an overvalued currency expect the exodus of jobs offshore to continue to gain pace.  

This is also a failure of political policy and foresight in many western societies.  The evil of "protectionism" is rolled out when preservation of local sourcing is raised but this is the norm for many Asia economies that have erected all kinds of protectionist barriers against goods across the spectrum of finished to raw materials to agriculture.


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## Aussiejeff (24 May 2013)

First Ford, now this......oh the irony...



> Up to 2,500 cleaning jobs at risk after collapse of *Swan* Services




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-23/cleaning-jobs-at-risk-as-swan-services-fails/4709382


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## FxTrader (20 June 2013)

IBM continues to slash its IT workforce in Aus in favor of offshoring...

http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/business-it/ibm-quietly-slashing-australian-jobs-20130619-2oic6.html

The exodus of IT jobs from the clever country continues.  When 1,000 auto workers lose their jobs at Ford in 3 years they are promised millions in government assistance and generous redundancy packages but when 1,500 IT positions are axed there's hardly a whimper.  The local IT industry is a major exploiter of the 457 visa system as well yet there is no problem with the 457 visa program?

Where is the outrage and shock when the largest corporate IT employers (banks, Telstra, BHP etc.) in Aus use surrogates like IBM to offshore thousands of IT sector jobs?

Is it any wonder enrollment in IT programs at Uni are in steep decline?  Does either party care if there is an IT industry in Aus and if so what is the policy platform to support it?


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## Aussiejeff (20 June 2013)

FxTrader said:


> IBM continues to slash its IT workforce in Aus in favor of offshoring...
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/business-it/ibm-quietly-slashing-australian-jobs-20130619-2oic6.html
> 
> ...




With luck we'll get swamped with 20,000,000 refugees from Indonesia over the next 5 years. Hopefully they'll take over running the joint, cos' our pollies don't seem up to it....


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## Zedd (20 June 2013)

FxTrader said:


> Where is the outrage and shock when the largest corporate IT employers (banks, Telstra, BHP etc.) in Aus use surrogates like IBM to offshore thousands of IT sector jobs?
> 
> Is it any wonder enrollment in IT programs at Uni are in steep decline?  Does either party care if there is an IT industry in Aus and if so what is the policy platform to support it?




While I appreciate the apparent hypocrisy, I think the depth of the IT sector, and the nature of the work means it's far less likely to see these skills vanish from our workforce, unlike large manufacturers. The only argument that I'm aware of to support failing industries is to maintain domestic skills, not jobs.


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## FxTrader (20 June 2013)

Zedd said:


> While I appreciate the apparent hypocrisy, I think the depth of the IT sector, and the nature of the work means it's far less likely to see these skills vanish from our workforce, unlike large manufacturers. The only argument that I'm aware of to support failing industries is to maintain domestic skills, not jobs.



This depends on how you define the IT workforce.  If you exclude the army of 457 IT workers and focus only on Aus citizens, the upward trend in ICT offshoring is having an alarming impact on domestic employment prospects and skill retention.

The skills are vanishing at a rate that is more perceptable now than in the past as some facets of ICT work (e.g. certain types of software development) are sourced almost exclusively overseas.  Will IT skill sets totally vanish, no, but the sector will not be a major employer in Australia in the next 20 years if current offshoring trends continue.

ICT is a growing industry just not in Australia.  Maintaining skills is useless if those skills can't secure one a job in Australia.  The "depth" of the sector is a facade and relies heavily on large employers like the banks employing highly skilled and experienced IT workers.  Increasingly, this work is going overseas at a rate that is disturbing to say the least.


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## Zedd (20 June 2013)

FxTrader said:


> The skills are vanishing at a rate that is more perceptable now than in the past as some facets of ICT work (e.g. certain types of software development) are sourced almost exclusively overseas.




Interesting. In my own industry (industrial controls systems) they're increasingly looking to outsource brute coding to get the leg work done, but due to training, experience and client relationships it still comes back to our engineers to check, test and implement. I expect this trend to continue but feel that due to the differences in education and work ethic/culture I'm confident that jobs will remain for talented and experienced individuals in my profession. The problem will be the graduates getting the experience to get to the required level when all the small stuff is already outsourced for cheaper. The dead weight will definitely be culled though over the next decade.

Anecdotally, I've been led to believe that creative IT was still very much a growing industry in Aus. I've a number of mates working in development and their companies are doing well where design is a larger aspect of the work. Whether it be developing client relationships, or understanding local markets better, I think this work will remain due to domestic advantages.

I definitely think that code monkeys and IT support jobs are on the way out though, as they just can't compete on wages, and I don't think they have much to offer from a service perspective that can be considered an advantage.

Agree?


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## FxTrader (20 June 2013)

Zedd said:


> I definitely think that code monkeys and IT support jobs are on the way out though, as they just can't compete on wages, and I don't think they have much to offer from a service perspective that can be considered an advantage. Agree?



Yes, but keep in mind that such jobs comprise a large part of the more highly paid and skilled segment of the IT workforce.  Such jobs are still required of course but offshored at a fraction of the cost locally.  Quality of local service is overridden by the fact that in some roles you can employ 3 workers in India for the cost of 1 in Australia.

I have first hand experience with the indignity of training someone in India to do my job under threat of losing my redundancy package otherwise (IBM).  Unfortunately this is an all to common experience these days.

You raise a key issue for the future, where are future IT grads going to get the experience to work with high end corporate infrastructure and development projects.  IT is morphing into a niche market segment instead of a major industry sector here.  It's quite sad to watch this unfolding.


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## MARKETWINNER (23 June 2013)

http://www.afr.com/p/national/profe...duates_face_job_market_ml4M9I3CEBdkesW84JzqoJ

Accounting graduates face job market squeeze


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## qldfrog (23 June 2013)

And I also share your view, I am in IT and there are still jobs for me as supervising organising outsourced work.But the experience I gained ramping up would not be possible anymore and we will end up with dum corporate swallowing any rubbish an outsourcing company will feed them as they will have no more local experience to rely on:
10 man weeks jobs will be quoted 100 and they will sign off..
In a way, justice will be done 
As for the quality of the end product...


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## Smurf1976 (23 June 2013)

qldfrog said:


> 10 man weeks jobs will be quoted 100 and they will sign off..
> In a way, justice will be done
> As for the quality of the end product...



This is exactly what already happens in other industries where things have been "outsourced" not overseas, but to Australians.

You'd be hard pressed to find a technical person, in any specific field, who thinks that outsourcing actually improves the end result. It's just that big corporates and especially government think it's a good idea, because senior management doesn't really know what's going on "at the coal face". 

A lot of this ultimately comes down to having managers who are generalists without practical experience in whatever it is they are supposedly managing. They don't want to know the detail themselves, they just want someone to tell them what needs to happen and that everything will be OK. And so there's an entire industry writing reports to make managers feel secure in what they are doing. Trouble is, the vast majority of such reports are at best based on unproven assumptions.

Pick a subject, practically any subject will do, that you personally have in depth knowledge of. Now find some management reports, or better still government reports, into that subject. You'll be shocked to realise that actual decisions are being made on the basis of such rubbish.

As a specific example, some government departments rely heavily on a "business case" to justify practically any decision. At the extreme, that could be something as simple as fixing a broken air-conditioner or leasing a vehicle. It all comes down to the almighty Business Case. Now, the trouble is really quite obvious. The person writing the Business Case will, in most situations, be the person who wants whatever it is in the first place. No prizes for guessing that they'll write a Business Case which supports their own argument. And since technical knowledge has been outsourced, nobody is likely to challenge them on it even if it is incredibly wasteful and unnecessary. 

Outsourcing has a proper place, that being for things which are not a routine part of the company's core activities. But it's very much over used when it's come to the point that the company or government department no longer understands its' own activities as is increasingly the case.


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## Mrmagoo (14 July 2013)

Jobs will vanish, this country does not invest in its skills at all. Why pay someone 150k a year to do a simple task in Australia because of a shortage created due to incompetence when you can hire someone for a 5th of that overseas ?

- - - Updated - - -



Smurf1976 said:


> A lot of this ultimately comes down to having managers who are generalists without practical experience in whatever it is they are supposedly managing.




I reckon it is the other way around. Technical folk piss in the pocket of management for only so long until management cracks the ****s and outsources.

The current example is someone told them it was a good idea not to train new staff, now they ended up with shortages and as a result the technical folk got paid a fortune and their jobs ended up being outsourced.

The government is the worst of the lot, soft left leaning female focused bull**** educational courses where billions are spent to no gain at all. I say fire all of the left leaning feminists and let some people who actually know what they're doing run the show.

As first point I'd say a cull at year ten to remove the bottom 50% of students from education, and a further 50% cull at the end of year 11 so only the top 25% of students get to compete for university places.

Next, the saved money, you give to employers so they can basically hire people without experience for zero dollars (their actual worth).

We need to drastically re-shape the Australian economy and this will include making a lot of people cry. The next point would be to crash the property market and build a lot of apartments so people can live a lot cheaper, enabling business to pay lower wages.


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## Zedd (15 July 2013)

Mrmagoo said:


> I reckon it is the other way around. Technical folk piss in the pocket of management for only so long until management cracks the ****s and outsources.




Interesting POV, and I can sympathise to an extent. It's very rare to find a technical expert who can also appreciate the financial aspects of the questions being asked and are able to discuss options objectively with a manager. Still more a communications failure though which is management's role, based primarily on under-knowledged management IMO. 



Mrmagoo said:


> As first point I'd say a cull at year ten to remove the bottom 50% of students from education, and a further 50% cull at the end of year 11 so only the top 25% of students get to compete for university places.
> 
> Next, the saved money, you give to employers so they can basically hire people without experience for zero dollars (their actual worth).



So you think it'd be better to have a less educated population, which would enable us to pay lower wages, and eventually be able to compete on wages with 3rd-world nations? Unlikely I think. 

Productivity-advantages driven through education and training is the only way we're going to keep our current quality of life. Completely disagree with further limitations on university places, but I agree that high-school leavers need a better appreciation of where they can get to without a trade or degree. Didn't hit home for me until I was two years into my degree, working in a fish and chip shop to earn spending money, while accruing HECS debt, and debt with parents for living expenses. At the same time one of my mates was pulling in almost $100k working 7 days a week with a trade which he began in year 10. If not for the skills squeeze from the mining boom I'd be surprised if I was ever able to catch up to his net worth after those four years lost earnings and debts.

I think the only change we need in Australia is an attitude one. Good work = good pay; bare minimum work = bare minimum pay. That's the way it should be but employers seem reluctant to reward those working burning the midnight oil, most likely because they're reluctant to fire those who aren't pulling their weight due to unfair dismissal laws.


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## Julia (15 July 2013)

Mrmagoo said:


> As first point I'd say a cull at year ten to remove the bottom 50% of students from education, and a further 50% cull at the end of year 11 so only the top 25% of students get to compete for university places.



That's perhaps a bit extreme, but we do need to stop accepting everyone into university just to fill the funding needs of universities.
Teaching is a good example.  People with ATARs of only 50 are being admitted to teaching degrees.
No wonder our  literacy and numeracy rates are so far behind most of the rest of the developed world.


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## Zedd (15 July 2013)

Julia said:


> That's perhaps a bit extreme, but we do need to stop accepting everyone into university just to fill the funding needs of universities.
> Teaching is a good example.  People with ATARs of only 50 are being admitted to teaching degrees.
> No wonder our  literacy and numeracy rates are so far behind most of the rest of the developed world.




I'm not sure if that's necessarily a reflection of trying to make it an easy entrance, versus drop out rates and supply/demand for Australian teachers both domestically and world wide. Anecdotally I'm led to believe that entrance levels haven't changed significantly since the 1970's.

And our decreasing standards in literacy and numeracy have little to do with the quality and hard work of our teachers and more to do with the dropping standards in parenting.


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## Julia (15 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> I'm not sure if that's necessarily a reflection of trying to make it an easy entrance, versus drop out rates and supply/demand for Australian teachers both domestically and world wide. Anecdotally I'm led to believe that entrance levels haven't changed significantly since the 1970's.



I was listening to a discussion about it today and the participants (all well qualified to comment) agreed tertiary entrance standards have fallen in recent years.  Well meaning, but ultimately devaluing overall the worth of a tertiary education.



> And our decreasing standards in literacy and numeracy have little to do with the quality and hard work of our teachers and more to do with the dropping standards in parenting.



That would be to suggest that if you admit as teachers people whose own literacy and numeracy is woefully lacking, it will have no effect on their capacity to communicate good literacy and numeracy to students.
Makes no sense.

I also disagree that there is any overall drop in standards of parenting.  There will always be parents who are more focused on education in every sense than others, just as there will always be those who place no value on education.


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## Zedd (15 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I was listening to a discussion about it today and the participants (all well qualified to comment) agreed tertiary entrance standards have fallen in recent years.  Well meaning, but ultimately devaluing overall the worth of a tertiary education.



Anecdotal or statistics based? I only ask because my mother and aunty both went through teachers college in the '70s and were learning alongside individuals who received government scholarships even though they only just scraped through high school. And certainly not all the teachers I had during the 90's & 00's would have met current criteria which is passing basic maths, English and science at a grade 9 level.



Julia said:


> That would be to suggest that if you admit as teachers people whose own literacy and numeracy is woefully lacking, it will have no effect on their capacity to communicate good literacy and numeracy to students.
> Makes no sense.




Not quite what I was getting at. You need to have a comprehension level above that of the students you're teaching but that's all. After that I believe people skills, and teaching skills, then become the greater determinants to imparting knowledge of the techniques and methods required to read and write, and to solve maths problems. So for example grade one, providing you can count to 100, do addition and subtraction, and know your alphabet, then you have the literacy and numeracy skills required. It's the teaching skills that make the difference at this age. 

Most important of all though is practicing the skill using the learned techniques. This practice has traditionally been through reading or being read to at home, and completing homework.


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## Julia (16 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Anecdotal or statistics based? I only ask because my mother and aunty both went through teachers college in the '70s and were learning alongside individuals who received government scholarships even though they only just scraped through high school.



Thanks for your response.  Certainly anecdotally based but over many years.
Perhaps consider that in the 70's, even 80's the basic curriculum had a much stronger focus on literacy and numeracy.  These days teachers have an almost impossible expectation in terms of subjects they have to cover, not to mention trying to maintain some sort of order in many public school classrooms.

In addition, the post 70's included that quite extended period of assuming children could achieve literacy via the 'whole word' approach.  Didn't work, and thankfully a more phonetically based system is returning.

I know several teachers.  The older ones (those almost at retirement age) have good literacy and numeracy.  The younger ones don't.  One of them routinely says "we should of went".  She is teaching English.



> Not quite what I was getting at. You need to have a comprehension level above that of the students you're teaching but that's all. After that I believe people skills, and teaching skills, then become the greater determinants to imparting knowledge of the techniques and methods required to read and write, and to solve maths problems. So for example grade one, providing you can count to 100, do addition and subtraction, and know your alphabet, then you have the literacy and numeracy skills required. It's the teaching skills that make the difference at this age.



Well, Zedd, I don't see it quite that way, but thanks for explaining your view.  I'd much rather a teacher who had the capacity to answer the outlier questions to one who is teaching almost to the limit of his/her own understanding.


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## FlyingFox (16 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> ... At the same time one of my mates was pulling in almost $100k working 7 days a week with a trade which he began in year 10. If not for the skills squeeze from the mining boom I'd be surprised if I was ever able to catch up to his net worth after those four years lost earnings and debts.




This is why I am surprised that we don't have more of a skills shortage. Why would anyone want to put themselves through uni or non-trades?


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## Zedd (16 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I'd much rather a teacher who had the capacity to answer the outlier questions to one who is teaching almost to the limit of his/her own understanding.



Yeah completely agree, and was lucky enough to have a number of highly qualified teachers in my secondary schooling which made a noticeable difference to the quality in the classroom. But, this isn't always possible, and I don't think always necessary. I still think the main reason we're seeing declining outcome levels is due to parenting, and home life in general, rather than the quality of our teachers. Next most significant reason is changing expectations/workloads of teachers. I think any change in the quality of our teachers over the last few decades is of least significance. Still important, and they have tried to address that with the entrance exam (in QLD at least) implemented 3 or 4 years ago, but still not the greatest determining factor.


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## Zedd (16 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> This is why I am surprised that we don't have more of a skills shortage. Why would anyone want to put themselves through uni or non-trades?




Now that I can answer! Why tackle the monotony and difficulties of life through hard work when you can post-pone it for four years and sink copious amounts of booze at uni, while telling yourself and everyone else that you're working towards a more secure, promising future...

Just glad I procrastinated with a degree that led to a career, rather than a general degree that puts you back on the bottom when you get out.


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## Boggo (16 July 2013)

You sometimes have to wonder if anyone in govt etc really gives a damn.

In SA at the moment they are building a new hospital to replace the Royal Adelaide Hospital.
Great, creates work you may think.
There are over 800 new shower cubicles being fitted to the new hospital and they are all pre-made overseas, shipped in and then installed as a completed unit.
This is just one example of what is happening, meanwhile this dropkick bunch of clowns that are allegedly running the state are pouring millions of dollars of SA taxpayers money into saving the Holden car plant to protect SA jobs just like they did with Mitsubishi before they took the money and then closed up anyway.

The infamous Adelaide Airport (Australian airport of the year in 2012) had all their aerobridges built in Spain and then shipped out here (the Sydney bridges are built in NZ).

Think about these examples the next time you hear air miles Kev and his associated cohorts carry on about protecting Australian industry and jobs.


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## FlyingFox (16 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Now that I can answer! Why tackle the monotony and difficulties of life through hard work when you can post-pone it for four years and sink copious amounts of booze at uni, while telling yourself and everyone else that you're working towards a more secure, promising future...
> 
> Just glad I procrastinated with a degree that led to a career, rather than a general degree that puts you back on the bottom when you get out.




LOL! nice one. In all seriousness, even with career specific degrees, the promise of a career, good money and job security are no longer a given. Don't know of any jobs that will get you to 100K out of uni and not many that will get you even close 3-4 yrs in.

Maybe it's just me but the whole go to uni get paid well thing is on its head in Oz.


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## Klogg (16 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> LOL! nice one. In all seriousness, even with career specific degrees, the promise of a career, good money and job security are no longer a given. Don't know of any jobs that will get you to 100K out of uni and not many that will get you even close 3-4 yrs in.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but the whole go to uni get paid well thing is on its head in Oz.




There aren't any that will get you 100k out of uni (and there shouldn't be), but 3-4 years in you can definitely get it. 
I can honestly say IT offers more than this after 3-4 years.

The problem arises when you study a course that has no future. How does someone who studies an Arts offer a service worth $100k a year? (I'm talking about the majority, not a couple outliers)


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## FlyingFox (16 July 2013)

Klogg said:


> There aren't any that will get you 100k out of uni (and there shouldn't be), but 3-4 years in you can definitely get it.
> I can honestly say IT offers more than this after 3-4 years.
> 
> The problem arises when you study a course that has no future. How does someone who studies an Arts offer a service worth $100k a year? (I'm talking about the majority, not a couple outliers)




I know there are options. I didn't say there weren't any. As for IT, it depends really on whether you picked up a niche market or not. A while ago SAP, Oracale DB etc were paying small fortunes but generally speaking this is not the case.


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## Julia (16 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> I still think the main reason we're seeing declining outcome levels is due to parenting, and home life in general, rather than the quality of our teachers. Next most significant reason is changing expectations/workloads of teachers. I think any change in the quality of our teachers over the last few decades is of least significance. Still important, and they have tried to address that with the entrance exam (in QLD at least) implemented 3 or 4 years ago, but still not the greatest determining factor.



I think we should agree to disagree on this.  I gather you are very young if your preceding generation was educated in the 70's.  You might have some quite different views after a couple more decades of experience.
Thanks, anyway, for the discussion.


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## Smurf1976 (16 July 2013)

So far as the trades are concerned, you'd be amazed at how many apprentices don't end up completing their trade with the dropout rate close to 50%.

And of those that do complete, many more will be doing something unrelated just a few years later. Some will stay on the tools, some will move into related supervisory, financial or management roles but a lot will be doing something totally unrelated within a few years. 

I don't know what the figures for uni are, but anecdotal evidence seems to be that a great many people will, within a few years at most, not be using their education to earn an income. There seem to be many who go through uni and then end up employed in a field pretty much unrelated to their uni education. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or right, just observing.

So far as primary and high school education is concerned, I think that much of the problem stems from the willingness to pass students who don't really measure up. When I was at school, it was always made very clear that if you didn't pass then you would FAIL and that this would bring adverse consequences. These days, there seems to be a reluctance to actually FAIL anyone, and that removes the incentive to do well. 

Suffice to say that I remember quite well being "on detention" at lunchtime for having failed spelling or other tests. Yes, he was a fairly "hard" teacher but he got results and nobody seemed to suffer any harm from his methods. Suffice to say that he was very focused on producing students who could read, write, do maths and so on. He was also adamant that everyone needed to learn to type, since computers were coming in, and that we ought to understand finance and the stock market too. This was in grade 5 by the way.


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## Zedd (17 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I think we should agree to disagree on this.  I gather you are very young if your preceding generation was educated in the 70's.  You might have some quite different views after a couple more decades of experience.
> Thanks, anyway, for the discussion.




Always the ageist Julia. Always disappointing to have that thrown in your face, but impossible to refute. Maybe I will have a different opinion in a few decades.

I think we both agree there's been a decline in average literacy and numeracy standards. 
If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
2. Increased workload of teachers
3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers


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## brty (17 July 2013)

If I could just put my 2c worth in the teacher discussion...



> 2. Increased workload of teachers
> 3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers




It is quite clear in a free market that teachers are underpaid. If we, the collective we, want the best people teaching, then they need to be appropriately compensated for doing so. Currently they are choosing other professions. A classic case of if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

The increased workloads of teachers is another aspect that is greatly overlooked. For years teachers pay rises around the country have been linked to 'productivity increases'. Compared to many professions teachers have been falling behind in relative terms in both wages and job satisfaction. Therefore the standard of teachers must fall/has been falling.


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## johenmo (17 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
> 1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
> 2. Increased workload of teachers
> 3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers




Teaching is of interest to me because I grew up with teachers (not one myself) & know a few.  The older primary school teachers have remarked to me that kids arrive at primary school with poor or no literacy or numeracy abilities more often than they used to.  How much effect has the shift to two income families & daycare had on this? More than we'd like to admit, I feel.  This is not to denigrate childcare - but they aren't set up to teach.

Stats exist to show the children of lower decile families don't arrive at school with as good a skills as kids from higher decile families - & there are always exceptions. * I agree with the #1 above being #1 because a) without parental expectations, the teacher's efforts can be futile and b) the foundation CAN be created at home before starting education*.  The expectation from asian parents is generally much, much higher.  Our expectations and help helped our son move his english scores from C/C+ to B+ to A+ range.

#3 - there are & have been a few maths teachers who are brilliant mathematicians but are crappy teachers.  This was also the case when I was at school decades ago. Teaching/training is not the same as imparting or delivering information.

Administrative workload/red tape is undeniably increasing.  More focus on the process than the original objective IMO.


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## Julia (17 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Always the ageist Julia.



Not at all.  And I'm not 'throwing your age in your face'.  Be glad you still have most of your life ahead of you.  I know how little I appreciated that reality when I was your age.  Ask anyone in the baby boomer generation if their views about much have altered since they were 20 and I doubt too many will say no.



> I think we both agree there's been a decline in average literacy and numeracy standards.
> If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
> 1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
> 2. Increased workload of teachers
> 3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers



I'm not a researcher or a sociologist so I can't say.  My recent experience (over the last decade) has only been in mentoring programs in public schools, both primary and secondary, where I'm seeing children already determined to be disadvantaged.  I've certainly not found any of these kids to have come from a stable, two parent family where education was highly valued and some of them have been fighting massive disadvantage with single parents who have multiple addictions and almost zero parenting skills.

The schools are also in a demographic which is socially and culturally disadvantaged.

I also know children of friends who are just as literate and socially adept as any parent would wish, having enjoyed modelling and encouragement from parents who value education highly.

And then I suppose lots of kids in between these two levels.

So I really don't think I could prioritise which of your proferred reasons is dominant.  They largely feed off one another.  A great teacher will have more capacity to inspire the desire to learn, to influence parents who often are well meaning enough, just lack the understanding of how to best help their children.

But I stand by the fall in at least literacy amongst teachers trained in the last 15 or so years, perhaps longer, and believe raising the entrance standard would be a good start.  Brty and johenmo make good points also.

Sorry if this answer lacks the absolute  clarity you want.  I don't see the issue as black and white.
(The older you get the more you recognise the shades of grey.)


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## rryall (25 September 2013)

Telstra axes 1100 jobs

http://www.theage.com.au/business/telstra-axes-1100-jobs-in-restructure-20130925-2udqw.html


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## Uncle Festivus (8 November 2013)

Our politicians are asleep at the wheel again - what's it gonna take for them to do something about this!



> QANTAS engineers have slammed the airline's decision to close its maintenance base at Avalon next year, saying it will rip $50 million out of the Victorian economy.
> 
> Qantas Domestic chief executive Lyall Strambi announced today that the airline plans to close the heavy engineering base near Melbourne from next March at the cost of up to *300 jobs* because there is not enough work to keep it going.






> Technology giant IBM has quietly slashed its Australian workforce, with anxious staff preparing for up to *1,000 more redundancies,* the ABC understands.






> TOYOTA will axe up to *100 jobs* and must slash the cost of building cars in Australia to ensure the future of its local manufacturing operations.





> The Simplot vegetable processing facilities at Bathurst, NSW, and Devonport, Tasmania, will both remain open for at least three years.
> 
> However, the Bathurst plant will have the amount of vegetables it processes slashed by 50 per cent after this growing season.
> 
> The Bathurst plant will also see *110 of its 170 jobs* cut in an effort to restrict operations to normal working hours.






> Household appliances company Electrolux has announced it will close its factory at Orange in the central west of New South Wales in 2016.
> 
> The decision, made by the Swedish company in Stockholm, will mean the loss of around *544 jobs* at what is the last refrigerator manufacturing operation in Australia.






> STAFF at a major Bathurst employer face an uncertain future after Downer EDI yesterday announced a major review of its operations.
> 
> About *100 employees* could be out of work before Christmas if the company goes ahead with plans to close its Bathurst facility.




Etc Etc!!


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## MrBurns (8 November 2013)

I think they have to develop something we can export and employ people themselves but they only seem interested in their own employment.


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## IFocus (8 November 2013)

Uncle Festivus said:


> Our politicians are asleep at the wheel again - what's it gonna take for them to do something about this!
> 
> Etc Etc!!




Latest jobs numbers were horrendous with full time work being replaced with part time work plus the high rate of youth not having full time jobs or career paths.

It is a US style economy we are growing here.....sucks


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## DB008 (8 November 2013)

Uncle Festivus said:


> QANTAS engineers have slammed the airline's decision to close its maintenance base at Avalon next year, saying it will rip $50 million out of the Victorian economy.
> 
> Qantas Domestic chief executive Lyall Strambi announced today that the airline plans to close the heavy engineering base near Melbourne from next March at the cost of up to 300 jobs because there is not enough work to keep it going.




Were the unions demanding some outrageous pay-rises (~30%) recently?


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2013)

At work I deal with various suppliers, contractors etc and the story is the same with most of them. In short, things are pretty quiet so far as business is concerned.

Small contractors, big contractors, even government. It's the same story - not a lot is happening so far as engineering works, construction etc are concerned. It's the same pretty much everywhere - no money, downsizing etc.

For one example (I won't name the company) but it's a local engineering business here in Tas. A few years ago they had contracts worth $ millions and didn't really do small jobs at all. This week I gave them a small job worth just $300 and they bent over backwards to do it rather than risk me giving it to someone else. Like pretty much everyone else in this line of work they are desperate for whatever work is available.


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## poverty (9 November 2013)

Too many unions have been pricing their own workers out of a job for too long.  You will notice that these industries that shut down like Auto workers or Airliner maintenance workers end up on extremely comfortable salaries as their employer shuts up shop and offshores their jobs!  Gee, maybe we could have forgone that last pay hike?


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## FxTrader (9 November 2013)

poverty said:


> Too many unions have been pricing their own workers out of a job for too long.  You will notice that these industries that shut down like Auto workers or Airliner maintenance workers end up on extremely comfortable salaries as their employer shuts up shop and offshores their jobs!  Gee, maybe we could have forgone that last pay hike?



Such an errant, simplistic view of the local labor market and the usual vilification of unions is all to typical.  The real problem is globalization and the labor arbitrage opportunities it delivers to an amoral business community intent on maximizing profit by reducing costs.

Plenty of non-union members of the workforce are losing their jobs to offshoring since it's so much cheaper to pay an Indian, Filipino, Chinese etc. worker to provide skilled labor at wages that would in many cases condemn one to poverty here.  This is a mega trend that has been transforming the world economy into a wonderland for the exploitation of cheap labor and wealth transfer to the 1%.  The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.


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## satanoperca (9 November 2013)

FxTrader said:


> The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.




Innovate and educate *faster* than the other countries or you will still see a decline in living standards. But then again we have dirt to sell for the mean time.

I have watch the manufacturing sector move to East Asia over the last twenty years, now it is the white collar professional sectors also been sent overseas, graphic design, website development, accounting services, legal services etc.

I gave up the fight and joined the rest. I outsource most of my business activities to east Asia.

And if you think Australia is the only one effected here is a story from another country. This year I joined in partnership with a Malaysian web development company with 15 employees. The current owner, Chinese Malay has in the last two years setup an office in Burma as the cost of labor is to high in Malaysian for him to be competitive selling web based solutions to east Asian countries. Currently 9 university graduate in Burma, cost per graduate, approx $400 US a month. Now, I can already guess what people are going to say - exploitation. Go say that to the Burmese, they are happy to have a job and in their country it is a well paying job. Don't they deserve to have the same living standards as us in Australia, haven't they been fighting for the right for higher living standards with their lives for some time.

So where does this leave the average Australian worker, adapt or perish. I watch the news about factory closing down, the attitude of the average worker is they have some right to have a job. They better learn, that it is privilege to have a job and one must work for it.

If Australia is going to survive in the new world order, workers need to be flexible and constantly learning new skills, we also need to reduce the burden in this country of social welfare and hand outs. Don't want to work, then don't, starve as this is the platform we are competing on.

Cheers, off to Vietnam to see my dentist. Woops, let that out, why pay exorbitant dental fees when you can have the work done by equally trained Dentists in another country and have a holiday at the same time. Also to catch up with two graphic design firms I use in Ho Chi Minh City.

Cheers


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## ROE (9 November 2013)

There is a trend in crowded sourcing in white collars jobs for highest talent with cheap labour
All done via the Internet and the work can be 50-80% cheaper than sourcing it in
Australia but this  is in early stage, this will build momentum in the next decade

Got a friend who start a business based on this idea and he isn't done too bad out of it
He can out bid anyone on price as he has talented labor oversea ready
To work at a fraction of Aussie price... They are highly skill people in 
Russia, Romania, China and Philippines etc...

He take the job and he delivered the result all without Aussie workers.
Can't stop the trend and changes...just have to go with it and find other way to make money...
There is no way Australia can maintain the current pay rate
I say it will drop in the next decade


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2013)

At some point I think we'll see serious calls for protectionism. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what I see in the future and here's why.

Most people who make decisions of broader significance, be they politicians, senior mangers etc, have a background in something else. And that "something else" is in most cases a white collar profession. There are exceptions, but most senior managers or bureaucrats didn't spend their 20's and 30's working on a production line or in any job that requires the use of tools. More likely, their background is in law, finance, administration, accounting, medicine or some other white collar profession or clerical role.

In my experience at least, people who move onto other things later in their careers usually don't turn against their former occupation as such. There are exceptions, but most don't seek to destroy their own former occupation.

We've been losing factory jobs since the 1970's at the hands of increasing global trade and that is well known. But most managers and politicians are not former factory workers such that they feel no real personal connection to manufacturing. At best, they might have had a white collar job with a company that used to manufacture locally, but in most cases they didn't work on the production line as such. It is thus easy to feel no real connection to it.

But we are now set to do to white collar professions what has already been done to manufacturing and that is to offshore much of it. Trouble is, the people making the decisions at high levels (especially politics) in most cases do have some sort of personal connection to these occupations. 

Already we see a few rumblings about the reality that plumbers, electricians etc (difficult to offshore further given that manufacturing is already mostly gone) are seeing their incomes rise relative to many white collar jobs which are now becoming subject to offshore competition.

Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect that if you are a former administrative worker then you have a certain view of where that job sits in society. The idea that a tradesman or even a truck driver (no offence to anyone - my own background is as an electrician) is worth more in the market than someone who went to uni for 4 years doesn't sit too well with many people. And those people are the ones who end up in senior positions or politics and call the shots. 

Add in the huge mortgage debts these days and I think things will get interesting and we'll see some sort of move toward protectionism not necessarily in traditional areas (eg manufacturing) but in white collar roles. The mechanism is difficult to see, but I can certainly see a desire on the part of many to do it.

Australia is no longer competitive at practically anything. We certainly aren't at manufacturing or practically anything that's done in an office. We can't even put frozen vegetables in bags competitively. Even with mining, the gas industry is now struggling to compete. All of which leaves us with very few options.

The former factory jobs have already been replaced with tourism, lawn mowing and all sorts of other services but there's really nowhere for the white collar workers to go once their jobs go offshore. At least there isn't unless we can somehow make it work with practically everyone employed in physical service delivery (ie not in an office or factory) with a few iron ore and coal mines paying the bill for the whole lot. I just don't see that working out too well, at least not in the longer term.


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## Whiskers (9 November 2013)

FxTrader said:


> Such an errant, simplistic view of the local labor market and the usual vilification of unions is all to typical.  The real problem is globalization and the labor arbitrage opportunities it delivers to an amoral business community intent on maximizing profit by reducing costs.
> 
> Plenty of non-union members of the workforce are losing their jobs to offshoring since it's so much cheaper to pay an Indian, Filipino, Chinese etc. worker to provide skilled labor at wages that would in many cases condemn one to poverty here.  This is a mega trend that has been transforming the world economy into a wonderland for the exploitation of cheap labor and wealth transfer to the 1%.  The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.




Yes, living standards, or more specifically the moral and ethical standards of government is the common denominator... not unions, or lack of. 

In the countries where multinationals send the work for cheap labour, too often it's virtual or actual slave labor... because the regulatory authority and rule of law is far less established and enforced. Corruption and financial power yields them more financial gain there than they can get here. Hardly a justifiable reason to allow corporations to shift labour offshore in this day and age without some sort of ethical and social strings attached to them and or foreign aid to the other country.

I also agree we need to continue to innovate and ensure our politicians support the scientific and research infrastructure  for that.

But too often we forget about the effect of monetary policy. That can make or break the cost of labour and cost of imports, both. Look at how hard the US has been playing monetary policy to protect it's economy and others are starting to retaliate in the currency wars.

It seems to me that our monetary policy is focused too much on the best interests of our major financial institutions than the long term interests of our manufacturing and exporting industries. We see too much boom and bust in local manufacturing and exports v imports.


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## Uncle Festivus (10 November 2013)

Australians will eventually have to make a choice about living standards - do we continue to be part of the global level playing field ie the so called free trade agreements or do we do what every one else does ie call it free trade but subsidise via the back door anyway?

Abbott is making big talk about a free trade agreement with China. I'm not sure we will get the better deal out of it.

And it's not about raising the living standards of other countries - it's all about lowering ours to meet theirs in the environement of global labour availability/arbitrage as per FxTraders' post?

Boiling the frog syndrome? Perhaps we need another recession that we "had to have" to force the issue(s)?


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## ROE (10 November 2013)

I dont know why people wanting ever growing economy

its good to have recession once in a while it reset wages grow, house price and a whole raft of
other things so the next generation has similar benefits

making stuff more expensive every day lock future generations getting the same stuff we get last generations.


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## Knobby22 (10 November 2013)

ROE said:


> I dont know why people wanting ever growing economy
> 
> its good to have recession once in a while it reset wages grow, house price and a whole raft of
> other things so the next generation has similar benefits
> ...




Only if you a teacher, nurse  or similarly protected and unionised job. Those of us in the private sector dread a recession as do people trying to enter the workforce. 

If you lose your job or can't get one while you are  young, you may never get a good one again. Even if you do survive you can expect no rise in pay along with living expenses and the possibility of being asked to work part time till things pick up.


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## Uncle Festivus (11 November 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> Only if you a teacher, nurse  or similarly protected and unionised job.




Protected??


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## McLovin (11 November 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> Only if you a teacher, nurse  or similarly protected and unionised job. Those of us in the private sector dread a recession as do people trying to enter the workforce.
> 
> If you lose your job or can't get one while you are  young, you may never get a good one again. Even if you do survive you can expect no rise in pay along with living expenses and the possibility of being asked to work part time till things pick up.




Which is understandable, but the GFC was in no small part caused by central banks trying to stage manage the economy, so that mild downturns were avoided which encouraged increased risk taking and finally blew up. Serenity now; insantity later. They backburn the bush to prevent big bushfires, they don't water it to keep it nice and green. You've got to let the creative destruction of capitalism work.

A short, sharp recession where unemployment spikes in the 8%s, is better than the long drawn out downturn and now anemic growth we have had instead, surely. Like anyone else, I'd much prefer an economy that never stops growing but that's not possible, so surely it's better to opt for the least bad option.


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