# SPI 200 and Futures Options



## Pit Trader

Does anyone out there trade the Spi and Futures options ?


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Pit Trader said:


> Does anyone out there trade the Spi and Futures options ?




Did you actually try putting in an ounce of effort and looking around on the forum? 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4876

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15319

Plus about 900 thousand threads on options in the Derivatives section of the forum.


----------



## sails

Pit Trader said:


> Does anyone out there trade the Spi and Futures options ?




Pit Trader,  I assume you are asking about options and not just about SPI futures as Sam may have assumed?

If so, the last time I looked at SPI options they were terribly illiquid - but then that was quite a few years ago.  XJO options are far more liquid and I believe the MMs use the SPI for hedging.  I don't think the contract size is the same for XJO options as for SPI options - but then I haven't checked that out
 for sure.

XJO options are quite liquid these days and makes for much easier trading.

Have you tried to trade SPI options?  If so - what was it like?


----------



## Pit Trader

Yes I trade the Spi options on a regular basis.
They are not liquid but my broker can always get me a market.
Sold some yesterday with good premium.I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying.

There is a blog dealing with spi and option I found but I'm not sure I'm allowed
to post it on here so if your interested P.M me and I'll foward the link.


----------



## Joe Blow

Pit Trader said:


> There is a blog dealing with spi and option I found but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post it on here




Pit Trader: Links to your blog go in your signature: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/account/signature

We do not allow people to post links to their blog in posts on the forums. I suggest that you review the Code of Conduct which you can find a permanent link to at the bottom of every page.


----------



## Pit Trader

It's not my blog....I was just trying to help educate and share.


----------



## Pit Trader

From a Spi blog posted before the open this morning......

I will look to sell around the 4460 area early around the open.If we crack this area then short covering will

be violent. 4460 is a significant level in the longer term picture in the market.The next level is around 4540 so we will keep an eye on this.Being a Friday we may see some caution from the buyers.




There may also be some good premium to sell if the bulls really rally this market by selling

some out of the money calls.I will look to the 4600 amd 4700's.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> There may also be some good premium to sell if the bulls really rally this market by selling
> 
> some out of the money calls.I will look to the 4600 amd 4700's.






Pit Trader said:


> Sold some yesterday with good premium.I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying.



How did you go with the last two you sold which are now underwater?

Why do you carry on with the stupid game of pretending that you have no link to the blog


----------



## Pit Trader

Hello there,

These are not my trades just a blog I stumbled across on the weekend.
why all the hostility ???


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> Yes I trade the Spi options on a regular basis.
> They are not liquid but my broker can always get me a market.
> *Sold some yesterday with good premium*.I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying.
> 
> There is a blog dealing with spi and option I found but I'm not sure I'm allowed
> to post it on here so if your interested P.M me and I'll foward the link.




Yeah mate. You just stumbled upon it a day before its first post!! and miraculously you happened to take exactly the same trade in hindsight!! Amazing matching of personality and trading style!

Your post here also align with the spam i receive from that site by 5 mins. Amazing coincidence.


----------



## Pit Trader

I can't see the connection.
But this is typical of forums everyone likes to be right
and the hostility starts when toes get stepped upon !!!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> I can't see the connection.
> But this is typical of forums everyone likes to be right
> and the hostility starts when toes get stepped upon !!!




Dude carry on


----------



## Pit Trader

I'm not interested in carrying on...

I'm interested in the fact that selling at 4460 was a very profitable trade.
So while you are insulting me hopefully others are learning from a blog that called the top at 4460 before the market opened.

In the end it's all about making money not measuring who is bigger !!!!


----------



## Trembling Hand

OMG. My issue with you is that you're dishonest. What is the point of pimping something if you haven't even the brains/balls to be open about it?? You don't gain anything rather you massively lose. So does this forum or do you think your dishonesty adds value?? I jut don't see how you will gain from it?
good trading calls or not


----------



## nunthewiser

I too am a Internet Guru.

Hindsight makes things so much easier ..

As you were , nothing of value to add , just thought i,d point out i am great for catching every high and low since i started posting here .

Any live trades i have posted that did not turn out great were made by my alter ego " nuntheless"

Thankyou


----------



## Pit Trader

By alerting readers to this blog adds a lot to this forum.
I cant see anywhere on the net for free someone is willing to
put out calls before the market opens.
This blog has had 5 profitable days trading the Spi and by calling the trades
before time.All other services that require payment show you what could have been traded after the event.
I would have thought anyone interested in making money trading would welcome something like this no matter what they think or feel.

If you know of anything close to this then please tell me I will be there
in a shot !!!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Shame you're not the blog author. As it may of been a good call for an hour or two but its now offside - you happen to know the profit targets & recommended stops?


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Shame you're not the blog author. As it may of been a good call for an hour or two but its now offside - you happen to know the profit targets & recommended stops?





It is on the Blog.


----------



## Pit Trader

It looks like it's in the Monday post.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Pit Trader said:


> It looks like it's in the Monday post.




How much experience do you have trading futs & options?


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying.




This is a fallacy. There is no intrinsic advantage of buying over selling.


----------



## Pit Trader

ThingyMajiggy said:


> How much experience do you have trading futs & options?




I have traded Futures since 2003.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> This is a fallacy. There is no intrinsic advantage of buying over selling.




A high percentage of options expire with no value.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> A high percentage of options expire with no value.




There's a little more than meets the eye.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> A high percentage of options expire with no value.




That is irrelevant... and a furphy


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> There's a little more than meets the eye.




I am well aware there is more to it-- but personally I find
selling out of the money options to be a very profitable excercise.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> That is irrelevant... and a furphy




selling options has made me a living for many years so while
it may not suit you it does me fine.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> ...but personally I find
> selling out of the money options to be a very profitable excercise.




That may well be the case, for reason of psychology and management style, I also prefer to sell than buy. But that is irrelevant.

Your statement was "I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying". This statement is not true. There is no intrinsic mathematical advantage of either buying or selling options.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> selling options has made me a living for many years so while
> it may not suit you it does me fine.




LOL


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> That may well be the case, for reason of psychology and management style, I also prefer to sell than buy. But that is irrelevant.
> 
> Your statement was "I always sell as I know my odds are greater than buying". This statement is not true. There is no intrinsic mathematical advantage of either buying or selling options.




Then why do you prefer to sell if there's no advantage??


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> LOL




Sorry for stepping on your toes !!!


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> I am well aware there is more to it-- but personally I find
> selling out of the money options to be a very profitable excercise.




Hi Pit Trader,

Are they naked shorts or hedged, if hedged which method ?


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Then why do you prefer to sell if there's no advantage??






wayneL said:


> f*for reasons of psychology and management style,* I also prefer to sell than buy.




Read more carefully, details matter when trading options.

Here are some posts I wrote somewhere in some corner of the web, collecting cobwebs, FWIW.



> In the previous post, the quoted "guru" stated unequivocally that 90% of options expire worthless, with the implication that option sellers have an edge over buyers... actually it's often explicitly stated.
> 
> According to the Chicago Board Options Exchange, typically only about 30% of options expire worthless in each monthly cycle. Only about 10% of options are exercised during each monthly cycle, usually in the final week before expiration. In fact, over 60% of all options are traded out in the marketplace. This means that buyers sell their options in the market, and writers buy their positions back to close.
> 
> So we see that the "90% of options expire worthless myth" is... a myth.
> 
> The fact it that there is no inherent edge in buying or selling options at point of inception, if they are correctly priced. It can be determined in retrospect, but the problem is that we cannot see into the future. There is no way of knowing whether the option premium is cheap or expensive, because we don't know what the underlying is going to do.
> 
> I like being nett short premium, because I am better at managing those positions for more consistent profit, but it does not mean being nett long premium is wrong. Each has it's own set of management implications.






> Over the last couple of weeks I've been concentrating on option trading myths and nonsense, in particular the myth of 90% of options expiring worthless, but only alluding to the second part of the puzzle. That second part of the puzzle is mathematical expectancy.
> 
> As Dean from www.masteroptions.com pointed out in a comment on my previous post:
> 
> The debate over what percentage of options expires out of the money misses the point. Even if it were true that 90% of options expired worthless it would mean nothing. There's also the matter of how much you make on your winners vs how much you lose on your losers.​
> Never a truer word said. Probability of win is irrelevant on its own.
> 
> The expectancy equation has two parts, 1) probability of win and 2) win size vs loss size. One way of expressing this mathematically is with this equation:
> 
> Expectancy = ((1 + reward/risk ratio) * win/loss ratio)-1​
> One way to have a look at this principle in practice is to wander down to the casino and play a little roulette. It is a wonderful way to understand this principle, because at the roulette wheel, it does not matter one iota with what probability we play, the negative expectancy cannot be overcome. On a 00 wheel the negative expectancy is -5.26%.
> 
> We can create a ~90% probability, but that won't help us a jot. A chip placed on 34 numbers gives us a ~89.5% probability of winning paying 36/34, but it's still a losing strategy in the long run. Let's look at the maths:
> 
> Expectancy = ((1 + reward/risk ratio) * win/loss ratio)-1
> 
> = ((1 +2/34) *34/38)-1
> 
> = -0.0526
> 
> = -5.26%​
> Likewise, an option strategy with a theoretically 90% probability, whether an actual statistical probability, or an erroneous probability, doesn't make the trader profitable in the long run. We are all aware of the snatching pennies from in front of a steam roller analogy.
> 
> If you make $1,000 90% of the time and lose $10,000 10% of the time, you're down a hole. In fact, you lose $1,000 every ten trades on average.
> 
> F### that!
> 
> High probability trades are nice in theory, but a trader still has to develop a positive mathematical edge. So our "90% of options expire worthless so sell options" pseudo-gurus actually make two major misrepresentations; that 90% options expire worthless and that this automatically confers profitability.
> 
> Mathematics outs in the end.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Yes I trade the Spi options on a regular basis.




What are SPI option contracts like to trade, how wide are the spreads ?

They are a bit of a mystery to me as they are not on continuous quote ( or it appears that way ).


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Hi Pit Trader,
> 
> Are they naked shorts or hedged, if hedged which method ?




When I trade Spi options I sell 1000 points if not more OOTM puts.
When the market rallies hard I sell calls 500 points away from the market.
This helps my delta and the margin calls.
If the market gets close to my options I hedge position in the futures market.

You need a good broker to get quotes when the market is thin which is usually is.There is always a market if you want one.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> When I trade Spi options I sell 1000 points if not more OOTM puts.




You mean short 1000 OTM put contracts, how do you prevent a flogging being so short gamma/vega if the market is getting creamed.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> What are SPI option contracts like to trade, how wide are the spreads ?
> 
> They are a bit of a mystery to me as they are not on continuous quote ( or it appears that way ).




Spreads are not great but you need to be patient and you usually get hit.
If you get a good broker they ring around the banks and they will quote you.
Be careful they wait for silly prices and hit you if you dont know what you are doing.You also find fund managers look to hedge in the options market so they look for volume.There are also Hedge Funds that sell options for a living they look to push 500 at a time.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> You mean short 1000 OTM put contracts, how do you prevent a flogging being so short gamma/vega when the market is getting creamed.




I mean 1000 points away from the market usually 20-40 lots.
Wait until the market has had a big correction and panic sets in then sell puts.
Like this week I sold some 3600 puts 1 month until expiry and 16 points.


----------



## Pit Trader

Pit Trader said:


> I mean 1000 points away from the market usually 20-40 lots.
> Wait until the market has had a big correction and panic sets in then sell puts.
> Like this week I sold some 3600 puts 1 month until expiry and 16 points.




You also need to be able to fund the margin calls as that is the most important thing,otherwise you are in trouble.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> You also need to be able to fund the margin calls as that is the most important thing,otherwise you are in trouble.




....and if you can't?


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> I mean 1000 points away from the market usually 20-40 lots.
> Wait until the market has had a big correction and panic sets in then sell puts.
> Like this week I sold some 3600 puts 1 month until expiry and 16 points.




You mean you sold the SPI June 3600 puts at 16 points 40 times.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> ....and if you can't?




Don't play in a game you can't afford to.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> You mean you sold the SPI June 3600 puts at 16 points 40 times.




20 times.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Don't play in a game you can't afford to.




So how much cash reserve per contract to you keep? There is an issue of risk, reward and capital return here.

If you have to keep so much cash in reserve, returns look puny.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> So how much cash reserve per contract to you keep? There is an issue of risk, reward and capital return here.
> 
> If you have to keep so much cash in reserve, returns look puny.




They are not my only positions I also have 5200 and 5300 calls and
 3700 puts.
They were put on when we were up around the 4800-5000 level.
I have 200K in my account and look to make 20K per expiry which there are 4 per year.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> If the market gets close to my options I hedge position in the futures market.




How close do you let the underlying get to the short strikes ?


----------



## wayneL

Supposing your 16 point puts blow out to 200 points or more... that's 20 x 184 x $25 = $92,000 extra margin plus additional risk margin to win the initial $8k.

Well in excess of 100k margin call.

Ya up for it?


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Supposing your 16 point puts blow out to 200 points or more... that's 20 x 184 x $25 = $92,000 extra margin plus additional risk margin to win the initial $8k.
> 
> Well in excess of 100k margin call.
> 
> Ya up for it?




The price would have to go through my strike to be 200 points premium.
This is why I wait for a sell off to put the positions on.
Like now...The market has dropped 800 points.
Very low risk of it dropping another 600 points in the next 4 weeks.
If it gets to my strike I will hedge in thre futures market.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> If it gets to my strike I will hedge in thre futures market.




So you wait till delta has ballooned out the wrong way, how much opposite delta do you then put on.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> So you wait till delta has ballooned out the wrong way, how much opposite delta do you then put on.




I Hedge the whole position and have to sit on it until it moves away from my strike.Means getting in and out many times.This has only happened to me once in 8 years.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> The price would have to go through my strike to be 200 points premium.
> This is why I wait for a sell off to put the positions on.
> Like now...The market has dropped 800 points.
> Very low risk of it dropping another 600 points in the next 4 weeks.
> If it gets to my strike I will hedge in thre futures market.




How long did you say you've been doing this?

I have no problems with your basic premise, but your risk control has me seriously alarmed. 

You have probability and risk confused IMO.

If it gets to your strike it's probably all over for you, too late to hedge as margin calls may have gobbled up your entire capital.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> Spreads are not great but you need to be patient and you usually get hit.
> If you get a good broker they ring around the banks and they will quote you.
> Be careful they wait for silly prices and hit you if you dont know what you are doing.You also find fund managers look to hedge in the options market so they look for volume.*There are also Hedge Funds that sell options for a living they look to push 500 at a time.*




lol at short otm gamma/+dgamma...what a load of ****...well maybe not if they're from Nigeria trading OPM


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> How long did you say you've been doing this?
> 
> I have no problems with your basic premise, but your risk control has me seriously alarmed.
> 
> You have probability and risk confused IMO.
> 
> If it gets to your strike it's probably all over for you, too late to hedge as margin calls may have gobbled up your entire capital.




This is why you need patience and only enter when the market has move a good deal.Go check your charts and see if the market moves 1800 points down in 3 months or 1200 points upward in 3 months.I'm usually in for only 2 months or less.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> lol at short otm gamma/+dgamma...what a load of ****...well maybe not if they're from Nigeria trading OPM




I have seen statements from my broker that showed accounts from
overseas that do this all the time.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> This is why you need patience and only enter when the market has move a good deal.Go check your charts and see if the market moves 1800 points down in 3 months or 1200 points upward in 3 months.I'm usually in for only 2 months or less.




LOL

Dude, you haven't been around ASF long, so I'll forgive your ignorance of how I trade options.

It's the @ss covering protocol I have a problem with... but it's your money.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> LOL
> 
> Dude, you haven't been around ASF long, so I'll forgive your ignorance of how I trade options.
> 
> It's the @ss covering protocol I have a problem with... but it's your money.




Dude, I actually dont care how you trade anything.I make money so that's all that matters.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Dude, I actually dont care how you trade anything.I make money so that's all that matters.




Why are you trying to "educate" us then


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> I have seen statements from my broker that showed accounts from overseas that do this all the time.




Confidentiality issues aside --- HF's execute thru PB with the iBanks - are you that big a player - i.e. millions in AUM? 

It's an insult to HFunders to suggest that they're selling into upside curvature PLUS not hedging into the event - not to mention the alternative products available to them to take these price bets with < risk [relative to convexity]


----------



## nunthewiser

Pit Trader said:


> Dude, I actually dont care how you trade anything.I make money so that's all that matters.





Now all we need is " tech/a" to come in with his $500 smackeroonies and say " put up or shut up"...

I would do it but i spent the last of my cash on a nigerian options course.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Why are you trying to "educate" us then




Look you want to insult me,you don't like my methods then move on.
You don't want to be educated you just want to tell everyone how much you know and how 6 years on a forum makes you a great trader.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> Confidentiality issues aside --- HF's execute thru PB with the iBanks - are you that big a player - i.e. millions in AUM?
> 
> It's an insult to HFunders to suggest that they're selling into upside curvature PLUS not hedging into the event - not to mention the alternative products available to them to take these price bets with < risk [relative to convexity]




I never mentioned being a big player.
I have seen the statements there is no reason for me to
make any of this up.It's fact.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Look you want to insult me,you don't like my methods then move on.
> You don't want to be educated you just want to tell everyone how much you know and how 6 years on a forum makes you a great trader.




HAHA!

Forums are about discussion and debate, you want submissive fools to fawn over a method with a high risk of ruin.

Where are these purported insults?

Where are my claims of being a great trader?

Sorry Pit, straw man arguments don't work on the intelligent folk here at ASF. 

You could try using logic instead? Perhaps even answer my query re margin rather than deny the market may still move against you?

Remember LTCM?


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> I never mentioned being a big player.
> I have seen the statements there is no reason for me to
> make any of this up.It's fact.




My point is the brokers they use is out of your league unless you have notionals in the millions. Yet you are suggesting you share the same broker as them.

...and I know for a fact they don't


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Look you want to insult me,you don't like my methods then move on.
> You don't want to be educated you just want to tell everyone how much you know and how 6 years on a forum makes you a great trader.




No one is out to insult you Pit Trader, 

You're copping a grilling because your style goes against what many consider to be sensible option trading.

The fact of the matter is when markets are quiet WTFOTM  contracts are not even worth trading ( selling short ) from a risk reward point of view, if you consider your timing to be so impeccable that you can face the abyss and sell put options  when everyone else is buying you would be better off trading futures.

There are certain aspects about your methods that just don't gel.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> HAHA!
> 
> Forums are about discussion and debate, you want submissive fools to fawn over a method with a high risk of ruin.
> 
> Where are these purported insults?
> 
> Where are my claims of being a great trader?
> 
> Sorry Pit, straw man arguments don't work on the intelligent folk here at ASF.
> 
> You could try using logic instead? Perhaps even answer my query re margin rather than deny the market may still move against you?
> 
> Remember LTCM?




I hedge my position in the futures market if it gets to my strike.
This has only hapened once in 8 years.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I hedge my position in the futures market if it gets to my strike.
> This has only hapened once in 8 years.




Yeah if the margin call hasn't taken you out beforehand.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> No one is out to insult you Pit Trader,
> 
> You're copping a grilling because your style goes against what many consider to be sensible option trading.
> 
> The fact of the matter is when markets are quiet WTFOTM  contracts are not even worth trading from a risk reward point of view, if you consider your timing to be so impeccable that you can face the abyss and sell put options  when everyone else is buying you would be better off trading futures.
> 
> There are certain aspects about your methods that just don't gel.




You dont need the markets to be volitile to sell options.Just a good move in a certain direction which usually happens in a 3 month period.I fade the move by selling the options.I actually do trade Spi everyday but do not hold on overnight.I watch the market everyday so I get a good feel for what's going on.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Yeah if the margin call hasn't taken you out beforehand.




That is why I sell puts and calls so I dont have all the eggs in one basket.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> I hedge my position in the futures market if it gets to my strike.
> This has only hapened once in 8 years.




If you don't mind run us through the event, strikes/dates/contract type/size/outcome.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> My point is the brokers they use is out of your league unless you have notionals in the millions. Yet you are suggesting you share the same broker as them.
> 
> ...and I know for a fact they don't




You may be right..but i'm telling you what I saw.This guy had GBP as his currency not AUD and it was millions in an off shore account.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> That is why I sell puts and calls so I dont have all the eggs in one basket.




LOL

How is that going to help you?

The call premium will be a drop in the ocean, no help if you get hit with a vega bomb.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> If you don't mind run us through the event, strikes/dates/contract size/outcome.




OCT 2008 I had 3500 puts(DEC EXP)15 lots and Lehman went under the market traded through me an I had to sell 15 lots and sit on them.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> LOL
> 
> How is that going to help you?
> 
> The call premium will be a drop in the ocean, no help if you get hit with a vega bomb.




Thats correct..but the point is my position is small enough to hedge.
I can trade around 15-20 lots not 50 -100 lots in the futures market.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> OCT 2008 I had 3500 puts(DEC EXP)15 lots and Lehman went under the market traded through me an I had to sell 15 lots and sit on them.




Why did you sell 15 lots of futures ? Now you've swung position delta the other way.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Why did you sell 15 lots of futures, wouldn't you have been better of buying back the options.




Because my strike was 3500 and the market traded there and i was short 15 puts.


----------



## Pit Trader

Pit Trader said:


> Because my strike was 3500 and the market traded there and i was short 15 puts.




Why buy them back at a loss when you can hedge and limit the losses to slippage and Brokerage.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Why buy them back at a loss when you can hedge and limit the losses to slippage and Brokerage.




But by now you have already booked a loss, buying back put contracts to swing delta is the same as selling futures.

Remember, the SPI has already taken out the strikes, then you over neutralized delta.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> But by now you have already booked a loss, buying back put contracts to swing delta is the same as selling futures.




There is no loss if I'm short puts @3500 and then sell futures @ 3500.
If the market drops I'm fully hedged if it rises I get out of my hedge.
I cant see the loss.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Thats correct..but the point is my position is small enough to hedge.
> I can trade around 15-20 lots not 50 -100 lots in the futures market.




So ATM you're flipping delta from ~.5 to ~-.5 

You're going from an ATM short put (and seriously down a hole) to an ATM synthetic short call and playing a stop and reverse game.

I'd rather you than me.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> So ATM you're flipping delta from ~.5 to ~-.5
> 
> You're going from an ATM short put (and seriously down a hole) to an ATM synthetic short call and playing a stop and reverse game.
> 
> I'd rather you than me.




That is correct...as long as i sit on the position I am in control of everything.
It has happened once in 8 years.


----------



## mazzatelli

wayneL said:


> The call premium will be a drop in the ocean, no help if you get hit with a *vega bomb*.




Don't you mean *jager*bomb?
I'd seriously hit that after the strike has been breached
Must be Friday - I'll attribute the stupidity to alcohol


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> There is no loss if I'm short puts @3500 and then sell futures @ 3500.
> If the market drops I'm fully hedged if it rises I get out of my hedge.
> I cant see the loss.




But before you said the market traded through you, now you're saying you hedged at strike by selling 15 deltas to hedge long 7.5 deltas.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> That is correct...as long as i sit on the position I am in control of everything.
> It has happened once in 8 years.




Anyone trading futs know that ain't the case. Theta is your friend ATM but you've got 10 futures deltas and if it starts chopping you about those losses can mount up scarily quickly.

Real traders know this.


----------



## wayneL

mazzatelli said:


> Don't you mean *jager*bomb?
> I'd seriously hit that after the strike has been breached




...and lots of them Mazza


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> But before you said the market traded through you, now you're saying you hedged at strike by selling 15 deltas to hedge long 7.5 deltas.




What I said was when the market got to my strike I hedged in the futures.
I was 15 short puts so I sold 15 futures when the market hit 3500.
It then traded below my stike so I was fully hedged.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Anyone trading futs know that ain't the case. Theta is your friend ATM but you've got 10 futures deltas and if it starts chopping you about those losses can mount up scarily quickly.
> 
> Real traders know this.




There is obviously the risk of losses if you get chopped in and out.
But thats the risk I take...Losses are part of the game.
You may not like or agree with my style/method but it works for me,
I know others who trade options this way.
And yes they are real traders.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> What I said was when the market got to my strike I hedged in the futures.
> I was 15 short puts so I sold 15 futures when the market hit 3500.
> It then traded below my strike so I was fully hedged.




You'd only be fully hedged if the delta of the options was ~1 - i.e. for every 1 unit move in spot, the option value changes by 1 unit

You have clearly stated that you hedged with 15 futures at 3500 - which is only ATM with plenty of time left to expiration. Pity that the delta at this point is ~0.5 - meaning for every 1 unit move in the underlying, the option value only moves by half.

Not only that - but you are carrying unrealized losses on the short put
In effect you have over-hedged - not fully hedged [short delta  bias], and having shorted so far otm - at this point a reversal is highly likely -> more losses

EDIT: WayneL and cutz have already discussed this in earlier posts.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> You'd only be fully hedged if the delta of the options was ~1 - i.e. for every 1 unit move in spot, the option value changes by 1 unit
> 
> You have clearly stated that you hedged with 15 futures at 3500 - which is only ATM with plenty of time left to expiration. Pity that the delta at this point is ~0.5 - meaning for every 1 unit move in the underlying, the option value only moves by half.
> 
> Not only that - but you are carrying unrealized losses on the short put
> In effect you have over-hedged - not fully hedged [short delta  bias], and having shorted so far otm - at this point a reversal is highly likely -> more losses
> 
> EDIT: WayneL and cutz have already discussed this in earlier posts.




If I am short 15 puts @ 3500 then when the market trades there I sell the underlying 15 times I'm fully hedged.If the market trades lower i keep my hedge if the market rises I dump my hedge.It can get difficult if it chops around 3500 but this is my method of protection.It works for me I have done it once,its not ideal but it protects me from big losses.


----------



## mazzatelli

mazzatelli said:


> You'd only be fully hedged if the delta of the options was ~1 - i.e. for every 1 unit move in spot, the option value changes by 1 unit




ugh sat mornings...I'm thinking of delta neutrality - not replication here
Position is short atm straddle when deltas are neutralized - far from a lock/perfect hedge

@Pit
It's not protection, you have switched it from a long bet-> short bet
No different to liquidating the short put, then shorting the call
But that's your method..each to their own


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> ugh sat mornings...I'm thinking of delta neutrality - not replication here
> Position is short atm straddle when deltas are neutralized - far from a lock/perfect hedge
> 
> @Pit
> It's not protection, you have switched it to from a long bet-> short bet
> No different to liquidating the short put, then shorting the call
> But that's your method..each to their own




It's not perfect...nothing is perfect... but it limits any huge losses if I 
actively monitor it.
Realize this deep,deep otm options very,very rarely get hit.The key is to fund
the margin and then act to hedge if it comes to that so you don't get wiped out.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> ugh sat mornings...I'm thinking of delta neutrality - not replication here
> Position is short atm straddle when deltas are neutralized - far from a lock/perfect hedge
> 
> @Pit
> It's not protection, you have switched it from a long bet-> short bet
> No different to liquidating the short put, then shorting the call
> But that's your method..each to their own




It is protection when the market trades at my strike I'm effectively long 15 lots @3500 then if I go short the physical @3500 my only isuue is if it trades back above 3500.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> It is protection when the market trades at my strike I'm effectively long 15 lots @3500 then if I go short the physical @3500 my only isuue is if it trades back above 3500.




For the last time, for the sake of others who read these posts, you are not effectively long 15 lots at 3500, only 7.5 lots due to atm delta.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> For the last time, for the sake of others who read these posts, you are not effectively long 15 lots at 3500, only 7.5 lots due to atm delta.




So If I sell @3500 15 times the futures market and the market never goes above this level before expiry what will be the result of the trade.My premium  collected at time of execution is 20 points.??


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> So If I sell @3500 15 times the futures market and the market never goes above this level before expiry what will be the result of the trade.My premium  collected at time of execution is 20 points.??




Are you sure you're a year 8 option trader and not having a lend ??

Rule of thumb number one, option delta ATM is ~ 0.5, it's been mentioned several times but you keep banging on about selling 15 lots of futures to get flat.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Are you sure you're a year 8 option trader and not having a lend ??
> 
> Rule of thumb number one, option delta ATM is ~ 0.5, it's been mentioned several times but you keep banging on about selling 15 lots of futures to get flat.




Please answer the question without more questions ??


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Please answer the question without more questions ??




I think you missing the point Pit Trader.

But to answer your question you are net short ~ 7.5 deltas, mazza already said that.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> I think you missing the point Pit Trader.
> 
> But to answer your question you are net short ~ 7.5 deltas, mazza already said that.




No the correct answer is my position would expire and I would collect the premium.

I understand your view but I dont use models calculating Delta,impl.
vol.and the like.This is my method and it works... it makes money.You guys use models and graphs ect. that's fine each to his own.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> So If I sell @3500 15 times the futures market and the market never goes above this level before expiry what will be the result of the trade.My premium  collected at time of execution is 20 points.??




That is only one scenario from numerous possibilities.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> That is only one scenario from numerous possibilities.




That is correct...very accurate response.
But I can control the possibilities by monitoring my position.
As stated it very,very rarely happens.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> That is correct...very accurate response.
> But I can control the possibilities by monitoring my position.
> As stated it very,very rarely happens.




Are you familiar with the phrase "picking up pennies in front of steam rollers"?

Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with the premise of the trade, it's the hedging strategy and margin implications that we all think will blow you up one day.

Also don't get us wrong, I don't anyone gives a rats about you and your capital, but in a discussion on a public forum, there are lurkers watching and listening. The discussion and criticism is for the benefit of all.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Are you familiar with the phrase "picking up pennies in front of steam rollers"?
> 
> Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with the premise of the trade, it's the hedging strategy and margin implications that we all think will blow you up one day.
> 
> Also don't get us wrong, I don't anyone gives a rats about you and your capital, but in a discussion on a public forum, there are lurkers watching and listening. The discussion and criticism is for the benefit of all.




I do understand your point...and it is valid.
My role here is an insurance business .
I realize this and  aware of the risks.

Understand this...

My brother works for JP Morgan in NY in the derivatives dept.
He deals with hedge funds and the like.
You guys need to confront the fact that they have so many more
resources at their disposal.There is no way you can compete long term with these guys using your computer models ect.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> My brother works for JP Morgan in NY in the derivatives dept.
> He deals with hedge funds and the like.
> You guys need to confront the fact that they have so many more
> resources at their disposal.There is no way you can compete long term with these guys using your computer models ect.




lol, you're bro is not the only one who works in a deriv dept of an iBank 

Hedge funds, with other resources at their disposal, wouldn't go shorting otm vanilla index puts when they can use binary exotics instead.

You should get some education from your bro, because a trader who can't comprehend the basics of Greek risk shouldn't be trading derivatives


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I do understand your point...and it is valid.
> My role here is an insurance business .
> I realize this and  aware of the risks.
> 
> Understand this...
> 
> My brother works for JP Morgan in NY in the derivatives dept.
> He deals with hedge funds and the like.
> You guys need to confront the fact that they have so many more
> resources at their disposal.There is no way you can compete long term with these guys using your computer models ect.




LOLOL

It's nothing to do with trying to compete with JPM GS et al with models. 

Retail option traders learn models to:

a/ understand options pricing and risk via Greeks

b/ to model returns versus risk in given situations - if/then analysis.

c/ devise an appropriate strategy in a given market and volatility environment

d/ manage risk as events unfold

JPM is irrelevant to that.


----------



## wayneL

mazzatelli said:


> lol, you're bro is not the only one who works in a deriv dept of an iBank
> 
> Hedge funds, with other resources at their disposal, wouldn't go shorting otm vanilla index puts when they can use binary exotics instead.
> 
> You should get some education from your bro, because a trader who can't comprehend the basics of Greek risk shouldn't be trading derivatives




Indeud.


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> lol, you're bro is not the only one who works in a deriv dept of an iBank
> 
> Hedge funds, with other resources at their disposal, wouldn't go shorting otm vanilla index puts when they can use binary exotics instead.
> 
> You should get some education from your bro, because a trader who can't comprehend the basics of Greek risk shouldn't be trading derivatives




I understand all the risks and am aware of how the deal with them.

My education is money in the bank.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I understand all the risks and am aware of how the deal with them.
> 
> My education is money in the bank.




My feeling is that you haven't received "an education" yet. That much is obvious.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> My feeling is that you haven't received "an education" yet. That much is obvious.




Lol,  i've got another 6 years and 10,000 posts to get a good education.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Lol,  i've got another 6 years and 10,000 posts to get a good education.




Resorting once again to amateur and childish straw man arguments doesn't help your standing here on ASF Pit, it rather cements the perception of your lack of knowledge. 

If you want to play with adults you should do so on the basis of sticking to the topic at hand - option risk and reward.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Resorting once again to amateur and childish straw man arguments doesn't help your standing here on ASF Pit, it rather cements the perception of your lack of knowledge.
> 
> If you want to play with adults you should do so on the basis of sticking to the topic at hand - option risk and reward.




Scroll through the post and check where the hostility has come from.

Knowledge comes from being in the market every day and surviving the bumps
and bruises.Do you think the traders in the early days used computer models to the earn a keep.I have friends who used to be on the SFE floor they dont use models ect to feed themselves.They still rely on their intuition.


----------



## nunthewiser

intresting thread ...... heres a summary so far.

1. Brokers post there clients statements on websites.

2. family member works for JPM

3. have friends on the sfe floor 

4. makes a sheetload of cash.

5. WayneL has lots of posts and educated.

All of the above have been posted during this discussion to validate that the poster is correct and has the relevant trading experience and contacts to educate us mere mortals into being Guru options traders also .

Please continue.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Scroll through the post and check where the hostility has come from.
> 
> Knowledge comes from being in the market every day and surviving the bumps
> and bruises.Do you think the traders in the early days used computer models to the earn a keep.I have friends who used to be on the SFE floor they dont use models ect to feed themselves.They still rely on their intuition.




There is no hostility, just differences of opinion.

We're talking options still?

Floor traders have a thorough theoretical grounding in options pricing, they are so-called conscious competents. They have a rich mental map of how prices move through this ground. IOW they have their own computer program - AKA the brain. 

Retail traders also develop this over time. I rarely refer to my modelling software because I have developed a rich mental map. This is just a function of time and expreince. 

Of course most on the SFE floor were straight out futures traders. As futures pricing is linear, there is no requirement for any model knowledge.

If you went to any MM or specialist and said you don't need to know option models (ie the justification for the option price at that point in time), they would laugh you off the floor.


----------



## Pit Trader

nunthewiser said:


> intresting thread ...... heres a summary so far.
> 
> 1. Brokers post there clients statements on websites.
> 
> 2. family member works for JPM
> 
> 3. have friends on the sfe floor
> 
> 4. makes a sheetload of cash.
> 
> 5. WayneL has lots of posts and educated.
> 
> All of the above have been posted during this discussion to validate that the poster is correct and has the relevant trading experience and contacts to educate us mere mortals into being Guru options traders also .
> 
> Please continue.




Na your missing the point........point is no one trades options this.

That tells you something too obvious to ignore.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Na your missing the point........point is no one trades options this.




Eh?

Something missing there. What are you trying to say?


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> There is no hostility, just differences of opinion.
> 
> We're talking options still?
> 
> Floor traders have a thorough theoretical grounding in options pricing, they are so-called conscious competents. They have a rich mental map of how prices move through this ground. IOW they have their own computer program - AKA the brain.
> 
> Retail traders also develop this over time. I rarely refer to my modelling software because I have developed a rich mental map. This is just a function of time and expreince.
> 
> Of course most on the SFE floor were straight out futures traders. As futures pricing is linear, there is no requirement for any model knowledge.
> 
> If you went to any MM or specialist and said you don't need to know option models (ie the justification for the option price at that point in time), they would laugh you off the floor.




At least we agree on something.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Eh?
> 
> Something missing there. What are you trying to say?





According to the posts from the experts on this forum,no one trades options like I do !!!


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> According to the posts from the experts on this forum,no one trades options like I do !!!




Definitely not iBanks, MM's and hedge funds - you seem to assume that all of us here are mom & dad investors/traders and aren't employed in the industry 

I forecast an outside handle will arrive in the forum sometime soon


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> According to the posts from the experts on this forum,no one trades options like I do !!!




Maybe, maybe not. So what?


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> Definitely not iBanks, MM's and hedge funds - you seem to assume that all of us here are mom & dad investors/traders and aren't employed in the industry




I dont assume anything...Anyone who is brave enough to trade their own account needs to be taken very seriously,risking your own hard earned is not to be taken litely.

I take comfort in the fact no one trades my style.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Maybe, maybe not. So what?




Well no one has put their hand to to support my method...only torched it.

So I assume I'm the Lone Ranger...This gives me comfort.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> I dont assume anything...Anyone who is brave enough to trade their own account needs to be taken very seriously,risking your own hard earned is not to be taken litely.
> 
> *I take comfort in the fact no one trades my style.*




Didn't you say hedge funds trade the same as you??



> I never mentioned being a big player.
> I have seen the statements there is no reason for me to
> make any of this up.It's fact.




Anyway - I've had my fun


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I dont assume anything...Anyone who is brave enough to trade their own account needs to be taken very seriously,risking your own hard earned is not to be taken litely.
> 
> I take comfort in the fact no one trades my style.




Yet you assume no one trades your style? 

Mate there are plenty who sell WTFOTM options on a variety of markets, including yours truly at times. The issue here is management of risk.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Maybe, maybe not. So what?




BTW Wayne,

to save me the time sifting through the 10,000 posts can you point me in the direction of money making trades you have posted on this forum ??


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Yet you assume no one trades your style?
> 
> Mate there are plenty who sell WTFOTM options on a variety of markets, including yours truly at times. The issue here is management of risk.




We have been through my risk stratergy...scroll back.


----------



## wayneL

mazzatelli said:


> Anyway - I've had my fun




It's pi55ing with rain here Mazza. I have hours of entertaining myself in front of me.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> We have been through my risk strategy...scroll back.




But you don't hedge risk at all, merely flip delta.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> BTW Wayne,
> 
> to save me the time sifting through the 10,000 posts can you point me in the direction of money making trades you have posted on this forum ??




Here ya go https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13778&highlight=sell+calls

It might look a bit familiar to you.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Here ya go https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13778&highlight=sell+calls
> 
> It might look a bit familiar to you.




How did you manage to remove cutz response to my question ??


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> How did you manage to remove cutz response to my question ??




Another inaccurate assumption. 

All posters have the ability to delete their own posts within a set time via the edit button at the bottom of the post, including you.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> How did you manage to remove cutz response to my question ??




Actually I removed it myself, I re-read the question, you were after trading style.

One of my favourite threads is "Options Mentoring" , it's a forum where beginners and can ask questions, it's what I referred to on the deleted post.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Another inaccurate assumption.
> 
> All posters have the ability to delete their own posts within a set time via the edit button at the bottom of the post, including you.




So you are not a moderator and have never removed other peoples
posts ??


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Actually I removed it myself, I re-read the question, you were after trading style.
> 
> One of my favourite threads is "Options Mentoring" , it's a forum where beginners and can ask questions.




My question had nothing to do with style it was simply about winning trades
he had posted on this forum...there was no need for you to remove it.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> So you are not a moderator and have never removed other peoples
> posts ??




As moderator I only remove abusive posts or spam.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> My question had nothing to do with style it was simply about winning trades
> he had posted on this forum...there was no need for you to remove it.




I removed because I then felt it wasn't relevant to your question as you obviously don’t need mentoring and I didn't want to risk offending you any further.


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> As moderator I only remove abusive posts or spam.




The penny drops.


----------



## nunthewiser

Pit Trader said:


> The penny drops.




Whats up ?

As moderators go Wayne is one of the better ones . he lets a discussion flow in and out of topic as long as it dont get abusive ..... many forum discussions get led astray and at least here on ASF the mods will let the conversation flow as long as people dont get silly in the banter .

Be thankful your on a forum where you can state a point of view without gettin nailed for the odd disagreement .


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit just to get my head clear. The other day you said you sold 4500 puts and your position size is what? 15 -20 lots?

And that was also the same trade as the 'other' guys at that blog you like?


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Pit just to get my head clear. The other day you said you sold 4500 puts and your position size is what? 15 -20 lots?
> 
> And that was also the same trade as the 'other' guys at that blog you like?




Hand,

scroll back and you will see--- 3600 puts,16 points 20 times.
One month until expiry.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Hand,
> 
> scroll back and you will see--- 3600 puts,16 points 20 times.
> One month until expiry.




Pit Trader,

Now I'm confused, what have you got open at the moment, on which day did you lay this on, for how much credit ?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> Hand,
> 
> scroll back and you will see--- 3600 puts,16 points 20 times.
> One month until expiry.




Oh I thought you had the same position as stated on that blog,



> We sold some 4500(70 points premium) calls yesterday into the strong short covering rally.




In any case when was your position opened?


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh I thought you had the same position as stated on that blog,
> 
> 
> 
> In any case when was your position opened?




Last week.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Pit Trader,
> 
> Now I'm confused, what have you got open at the moment, on which day did you lay this on, for how much credit ?




That particular trade was done on the 25th of last week.
16 points premium June 2010 puts @ 3600


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> Hand,
> 
> scroll back and you will see--- 3600 puts,16 points 20 times.
> One month until expiry.






Pit Trader said:


> Last week.




Oh interesting, SFE reports have no June 3600 puts traded last week?


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh interesting, SFE reports have no June 3600 puts traded last week?





Send the link on.


----------



## cutz

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh interesting, SFE reports have no June 3600 puts traded last week?




Indeed,

The 3700's were the closest.


----------



## cutz

Pit Trader said:


> Send the link on.




Ha Ha,

We'll do a deal, 

Tell us your next 5 trades then I'll give you a link.


----------



## Pit Trader

cutz said:


> Ha Ha,
> 
> We'll do a deal,
> 
> Tell us your next 5 trades then I'll give you a link.




Trades on what ??


----------



## Trembling Hand

http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100517SOT.htm

http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100518SOT.htm

http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100519SOT.htm

http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100520SOT.htm

http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100521SOT.htm

Carry on,


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100517SOT.htm
> 
> http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100518SOT.htm
> 
> http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100519SOT.htm
> 
> http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100520SOT.htm
> 
> http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100521SOT.htm
> 
> Carry on,





I cant see the link that deals with the 25th may


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I cant see the link that deals with the 25th may




http://www.sfe.com.au/Content/reports/EODWebMarketSummary100525SOT.htm


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> I cant see the link that deals with the 25th may




Now I'm confused  Didn't you say you sold 3600s last week? Being 17th to 21st or do you mean the week just gone(24th to 28th)?


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Now I'm confused  Didn't you say you sold 3600s last week? Being 17th to 21st or do you mean the week just gone(24th to 28th)?




As a favour to you boys I'll post my statement with the trade on it.
My platform is down for maintance.It was done through my broker
who deals with market makers....watch this space.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> As a favour to you boys I'll post my statement with the trade on it.
> My platform is down for maintance.It was done through my broker
> who deals with market makers....watch this space.




Maybe it was reported for the 26th?


----------



## wayneL

Trembling Hand said:


> Maybe it was reported for the 26th?




Only 12 points for those TH, not 16 as purported.

<add> just saw the volume....LOL


----------



## cutz

wayneL said:


> Only 12 points for those TH, not 16 as purported.
> 
> <add> just saw the volume....LOL




Not bad, that's 400 bucks per expiry, talk about eating like birds.


----------



## Pit Trader

Found the statement.

How do I post an ADOBE PDF file ?

I need to block out personal details ?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Better to tack a screen shot of it with the "PrtScn" button and paste it into Paint program them you can paint over your name and acc Numbers


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Better to tack a screen shoot of it with the "PrtScn" button and paste it into Paint program them you can paint over your name and acc Numbers




I have a macbookpro not sure how to do that


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> I have a macbookpro not sure how to do that




No idea but don't post your name & acc numbers.


----------



## wayneL

Pit

Supposing we take your word for it that you have the statement there, how do you explain away the fact that the trade was not reported by the exchange?


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> Pit
> 
> Supposing we take your word for it that you have the statement there, how do you explain away the fact that the trade was not reported by the exchange?




Could have been done in house.

But dont worry I will find a way to post the statement with all my positions on it
Thus everyone can see what I have and what will happen when we expire in 4 weeks.

I can see you guys are not used to dealing with real traders who put their stuff out there for everyone to see and can be judged accordingly.I'm happy to do it !!!

When I'm trading the Spi,Nikkie and AUD Monday I will post my trades before they happen for all to see and judge.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> Could have been done in house.




That would be an OTC transaction and surely you must have to be made aware of it.

How would the novation process work in those circumstances?


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> That would be an OTC transaction and surely you must have to be made aware of it.
> 
> How would the novation process work in those circumstances?




I ring my broker,he says i'll call you back,he quotes me a price and I agree or I disagree.I don't ask him who's on the other side or where the trade originated from.


----------



## mazzatelli

Pit Trader said:


> I have a macbookpro not sure how to do that




* Command* + *Shift* + *3*: Takes a  screenshot of the entire screen, and saves the image to your desktop.
* Command* + *Shift* + *4*, and click an  area. Takes a screenshot of an area and saves the image to your desktop.
* Command* + *Shift* + *4*, then press *space*,  and click a window: Takes a screenshot of a window and saves the image  to your desktop
To capture a screenshot and save it to the clipboard, use the  following keys.
* Command* + *Control* + *Shift*  + *3*: Takes  a screenshot of the entire screen, and saves it to your clipboard.
* Command* + *Control* + *Shift*  + *4*, and  click an area: Takes a screenshot of an area and saves it to your  clipboard.
* C**ommand* + *Control*  + *Shift* + *4*,  then press *space*, and click a window: Takes a  screenshot of a window and saves it to your clipboard.
courtesy of http://www.lancelhoff.com/how-to-take-screenshots-with-a-mac/


----------



## Pit Trader

mazzatelli said:


> * Command* + *Shift* + *3*: Takes a  screenshot of the entire screen, and saves the image to your desktop.
> * Command* + *Shift* + *4*, and click an  area. Takes a screenshot of an area and saves the image to your desktop.
> * Command* + *Shift* + *4*, then press *space*,  and click a window: Takes a screenshot of a window and saves the image  to your desktop
> To capture a screenshot and save it to the clipboard, use the  following keys.
> * Command* + *Control* + *Shift*  + *3*: Takes  a screenshot of the entire screen, and saves it to your clipboard.
> * Command* + *Control* + *Shift*  + *4*, and  click an area: Takes a screenshot of an area and saves it to your  clipboard.
> * C**ommand* + *Control*  + *Shift* + *4*,  then press *space*, and click a window: Takes a  screenshot of a window and saves it to your clipboard.
> courtesy of http://www.lancelhoff.com/how-to-take-screenshots-with-a-mac/





That works but cannot find a way to cover up my details.
Will work on it and post it when done !


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> That works but cannot find a way to cover up my details.
> Will work on it and post it when done !




Surely Mac must have an graphic editing software as standard as PC does. 

Don't tell me MicroSatan does something Mac doesn't?


----------



## wayneL

I have difficulty in believing that your broker would enter you into an OTC option contract without:

a/ notifying you of such, as there is the expectation of an exchange traded contract

b/ without negotiating and/or agreeing to the terms of the contract.

c/ without some surety as to the performance of the contract.

Additionally, why not deal with a MM? Why should the brokerage assume the risk... unless of course the brokerage also offers market making. In which case we go back to why was the trade not reported?


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> I have difficulty in believing that your broker would enter you into an OTC option contract without:
> 
> a/ notifying you of such, as there is the expectation of an exchange traded contract
> 
> b/ without negotiating and/or agreeing to the terms of the contract.
> 
> c/ without some surety as to the performance of the contract.
> 
> Additionally, why not deal with a MM? Why should the brokerage assume the risk... unless of course the brokerage also offers market making. In which case we go back to why was the trade not reported?




In house can also mean someone on their books may want to trade out
of a position.As I said I will spend sometime trying to post the statement
so then this discussion will end.

BTW anyone else want to match me in calling the trades before they happen in realtime.There must be some real traders out there who don't just lurk in forums posting and not really putting their money where there mouth is?

Hand surely you are a real trader who trades in and out all day ??
your blog leads us to think so.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> In house can also mean someone on their books may want to trade out
> of a position.




That doesn't change anything. It is still either exchange or OTC with the concerns as above.


----------



## nunthewiser

Sorry Pit .you aint nothing special darl ....

Me amongst others post real time trades very often .Right and Wrong...... i personally dont use my own thread to do so i use the various stock threads and at times the xao threads ..... 

TH has posted MANY live trades 

HEAPS of ppl here post live trades actually and call it BEFORE if not at the time of entry,s 

Only difference is we not trying to prove anything , merely give a heads up to others if they wanna have a squiz or maybe a trade idea .

But hey........... your special if it makes you feel better


----------



## Pit Trader

wayneL said:


> That doesn't change anything. It is still either exchange or OTC with the concerns as above.




I don't know.All I know is I get the price I want and couldn't care how I get it.
I will make some enquiries if you like.


----------



## Pit Trader

nunthewiser said:


> Sorry Pit .you aint nothing special darl ....
> 
> Me amongst others post real time trades very often .Right and Wrong...... i personally dont use my own thread to do so i use the various stock threads and at times the xao threads .....
> 
> TH has posted MANY live trades
> 
> HEAPS of ppl here post live trades actually and call it BEFORE if not at the time of entry,s
> 
> Only difference is we not trying to prove anything , merely give a heads up to others if they wanna have a squiz or maybe a trade idea .
> 
> But hey........... your special if it makes you feel better




Send the links on..I'm happy others do.
I'm  not trying to prove anything..i'm sure i'll get some wrong.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit Trader said:


> BTW anyone else want to match me in calling the trades before they happen in realtime.There must be some real traders out there who don't just lurk in forums posting and not really putting their money where there mouth is?
> 
> Hand surely you are a real trader who trades in and out all day ??
> your blog leads us to think so.






Pit Trader said:


> It's not my blog....I was just trying to help educate and share.




Hold on mate you insisted that that wasn't your blog, now what????? you're saying that it is? Then you bang on about being the only one to call trades without having the brains to check what others have done in this forum . Sorry but you are the one who hasn't "put their money where there mouth is"

Pit I tried to tell you right from the start that dishonesty doesn't wash around here and you keep on BSing, then to add to that you have claimed a trade that the exchange doesn't know anything about? After the oppies guys have pulled your approach apart as amateurish. lol.

You are showing all the signs of a dishonest poster/trader whose been in the game for 6 months. Whether thats true or not we don't care. Wankers wash in here and wash out daily. The ones that are valuable are the ones that over time prove to be open and contribute without the gods gift to traders attitude.

Grow up.


----------



## Pit Trader

Trembling Hand said:


> Hold on mate you insisted that that wasn't your blog, now what????? you're saying that it is? Then you bang on about being the only one to call trades without having the brains to check what others have done in this forum . Sorry but you are the one who hasn't "put their money where there mouth is"
> 
> Pit I tried to tell you right from the start that dishonesty doesn't wash around here and you keep on BSing, then to add to that you have claimed a trade that the exchange doesn't know anything about? After the oppies guys have pulled your approach apart as amateurish. lol.
> 
> You are showing all the signs of a dishonest poster/trader whose been in the game for 6 months. Whether thats true or not we don't care. Wankers wash in here and wash out daily. The ones that are valuable are the ones that over time prove to be open and contribute without the gods gift to traders attitude.
> 
> Grow up.




I spent some time yesterday going over the Spi blog started by Wayne L or is it Ker.

One thing that stands out to is the guys who claim to trade big volumes in the spi and know how to read the market in various ways are not what they seem.The real big and long term traders do not use IB.As you guys know IB drops out for a period during the day and can not be relied upon.They use what used to be called Brokerone now Mf Global-- they were taken over.The big boys like hand are paying $10 R/T where as the guys pushing 500 spi lots per day are paying 1.20 per side plus GST.They also get lower intra day margins($1500 per lot) as these guys are treated as high volume traders and refered to by MF Global as "Locals" not retail punters who pay $30 R/Turn.These guys are Spi and bond traders and have brokerage up to 20K per month.Hand if you are as big as you seem to suggest then let me know and I can lower your Brokerage considerably by reffering you to the broker who deals with locals at MF Global.

I went through the Spi thread and there seemd to be one one willing to call trades before the day started only a few while the market was in play and who knows if they were actually real trades.The thread seems to have died which speaks for itself.

Hand as far as the Blog you are referring to it's not important who's it is, what is clear is that there were 5 days of profits that were called before the market opened.Which can be verified(P.M me if you need the link) through some backtracking of last weeks price action.

I give you credit for trying to educate punter via your blog.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> I spent some time yesterday going over the Spi blog started by Wayne L or is it Ker.
> 
> One thing that stands out to is the guys who claim to trade big volumes in the spi and know how to read the market in various ways are not what they seem.The real big and long term traders do not use IB.As you guys know IB drops out for a period during the day and can not be relied upon.They use what used to be called Brokerone now Mf Global-- they were taken over.The big boys like hand are paying $10 R/T where as the guys pushing 500 spi lots per day are paying 1.20 per side plus GST.They also get lower intra day margins($1500 per lot) as these guys are treated as high volume traders and refered to by MF Global as "Locals" not retail punters who pay $30 R/Turn.These guys are Spi and bond traders and have brokerage up to 20K per month.Hand if you are as big as you seem to suggest then let me know and I can lower your Brokerage considerably by reffering you to the broker who deals with locals at MF Global.
> 
> I went through the Spi thread and there seemd to be one one willing to call trades before the day started only a few while the market was in play and who knows if they were actually real trades.The thread seems to have died which speaks for itself.




Normally I would delete personally abusive comments, but I thought I'd leave that one up as final conclusive proof of the calibre of person this Pit Trader guy is.

Added to the obvious playing fast and loose with the truth, a person unable to distinguish between hindsight calls and live calls, we have a puerile name caller with all the sophistication of a child at kindergarten.

Nice work.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Pit you are lost. IB have better volume discounts than MF. I pay less than propex (do you know who they are?) for Hkfe. And IB use Fortis to clear ASX/SFE. 

You know nothing. MF talk the talk about having all the "locals" but in reality they haven't been the main player for some time. You have swallowed, it seems, their marketing hype. They cannot match IB volume discounts. END OF STORY

IB drops out?? What a load of toss.


----------



## nunthewiser

gotta love the internet.


----------



## wayneL

Pit Trader said:


> The real big and long term traders do not use IB.As you guys know IB drops out for a period during the day and can not be relied upon.




Well that gave me a belly laugh. The middle of the day issue solved by simply changing which IB server is used.

I'm not a big player by any stretch, but to assert that big players don't use IB is one of the most amusing things I've seen written.

ROTFLMAO


----------



## Alpha_Bet

So does Pit Trader trade? I hope so. We need the liquidity.


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> Pit you are lost. IB have better volume discounts than MF. I pay less than propex (do you know who they are?) for Hkfe. And IB use Fortis to clear ASX/SFE.
> 
> You know nothing. MF talk the talk about having all the "locals" but in reality they haven't been the main player for some time. You have swallowed, it seems, their marketing hype. They cannot match IB volume discounts. END OF STORY
> 
> IB drops out?? What a load of toss.




Hi,

Very heated Thread.
I would like to add my bit if I may.

I have used IB and the problem is that if your internet connection drops out
there is no one to contact quickly.You get some guy who doesn't speak good english and doesn't understand the urgency of the situation.
I landed up losing a few bucks because of this.I can see Pit Traders point, that trading large volume with IB in Australia my be a problem if your in need of a quick response.I was only trading 2 contracts but if I had 20 or so 
on then I would have lost a great deal more.I now use a locally based broker who I can call and get urgent action if I need it.

Other than that I can't see a problem with using IB.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

:jerry :jerry :jerry

Whose the one thats going to strip and bash the security guards? 


This is classic!


----------



## gav

Art_Cashin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very heated Thread.
> I would like to add my bit if I may.
> 
> I have used IB and the problem is that if your internet connection drops out
> there is no one to contact quickly.You get some guy who doesn't speak good english and doesn't understand the urgency of the situation.
> I landed up losing a few bucks because of this.I can see Pit Traders point, that trading large volume with IB in Australia my be a problem if your in need of a quick response.I was only trading 2 contracts but if I had 20 or so
> on then I would have lost a great deal more.I now use a locally based broker who I can call and get urgent action if I need it.
> 
> Other than that I can't see a problem with using IB.




How is it IB's fault that your Internet connection dropped out?  If you are so reliant on your Internet connection, why did you not have a back up?  A poor tradesman blames his tools.


----------



## Art_Cashin

gav said:


> How is it IB's fault that your Internet connection dropped out?  If you are so reliant on your Internet connection, why did you not have a back up?  A poor tradesman blames his tools.




I wasn't blaming anyone.

The point is if your power or internet drops out and you are trading large volume you need a human to speak to fast. The problem is IB dont have people who know the Spi and can react to save you losing your cash.
Where as a local broker can be contacted quickly and will get you out if needed,or can a least work a stop.


----------



## Art_Cashin

gav said:


> How is it IB's fault that your Internet connection dropped out?  If you are so reliant on your Internet connection, why did you not have a back up?  A poor tradesman blames his tools.





As far as I know there is no other way to trade with IB other than the internet.
So you are " reliant on your internet connection".


----------



## nunthewiser

Art_Cashin said:


> As far as I know there is no other way to trade with IB other than the internet.
> So you are " reliant on your internet connection".




Gday .

I do not use IB (my own slackness in bothering about the paperwork) BUT i do use various others .

Internet does drop out from time to time ESPECIALLY if using telstra 

 I know this so i have a backup wireless PREPAID usb modem thingo for those times when my ADSL karks it.

Maybe worth thinking about if you are a trader.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> As far as I know there is no other way to trade with IB other than the internet.
> So you are " reliant on your internet connection".




You can phone them to close out positions.


----------



## Trembling Hand

This thread is starting to stink like someone pimping a local broker over others.WTF??

It started as the local being cheaper but its not. Certainly not for a retail trader doing half decent volume. certainly we all know MF global cost soon add up when you have to factor in the cost of Xtrader @$1200 per month or other half decent frontends. Now all it seems to be is about being able to talk to a local dealer 

Who gives a hoot, if thats the most important thing knock yourself out. If you like the range of markets, interface choice, cheap brokerage you will go for IB. Its not a big deal either way. (by the way personally have never had the problem of reaching someone in Honkers when needed)

But Ib is still cheaper. 

And at least there orders seem to end up in he market. Un like Pit traders trade which don't seem to match exchange data  Very interesting.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> You can phone them to close out positions.




Yes Wayne you are correct you can phone them.I was actually put on hold for 5 mins but it cost me money trying to get through and the language barrier was a problem.They didn't seem to know much about the SNFE.

I think IB are great but you need to be aware if you trade large volumes that it can be a problem to get out quickly.Luckily I only had 2 lots on.


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> This thread is starting to stink like someone pimping a local broker over others.WTF??
> 
> It started as the local being cheaper but its not. Certainly not for a retail trader doing half decent volume. certainly we all know MF global cost soon add up when you have to factor in the cost of Xtrader @$1200 per month or other half decent frontends. Now all it seems to be is about being able to talk to a local dealer
> 
> Who gives a hoot, if thats the most important thing knock yourself out. If you like the range of markets, interface choice, cheap brokerage you will go for IB. Its not a big deal either way. (by the way personally have never had the problem of reaching someone in Honkers when needed)
> 
> But Ib is still cheaper.
> 
> And at least there orders seem to end up in he market. Un like Pit traders trade which don't seem to match exchange data  Very interesting.




Trembling Hand,

I agree IB are good for what they are but if you have ever had the experience of having to get out fast it can cause a problem,especially if some news hits the wires and you are the wrong way.


----------



## nunthewiser

nunthewiser said:


> Gday .
> 
> I do not use IB (my own slackness in bothering about the paperwork) BUT i do use various others .
> 
> Internet does drop out from time to time ESPECIALLY if using telstra
> 
> I know this so i have a backup wireless PREPAID usb modem thingo for those times when my ADSL karks it.
> 
> Maybe worth thinking about if you are a trader.




REPEATS POST AS CLEARLY HAS BEEN MISSED BY THOSE THAT PREFER TO RING INSTEAD

but if the phone thing was merely a way of slagging off the broker i wish you was more obvious and i could have saved my precious middle finger from typing this stuff


----------



## Art_Cashin

nunthewiser said:


> REPEATS POST AS CLEARLY HAS BEEN MISSED BY THOSE THAT PREFER TO RING INSTEAD




Good back up plan--- but I needed a power generator not another ISP.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> Yes Wayne you are correct you can phone them.I was actually put on hold for 5 mins but it cost me money trying to get through and the language barrier was a problem.They didn't seem to know much about the SNFE.
> 
> I think IB are great but you need to be aware if you trade large volumes that it can be a problem to get out quickly.Luckily I only had 2 lots on.




Never heard of a stop order?


----------



## cutz

Art_Cashin said:


> Good back up plan--- but I needed a power generator not another ISP.




Which one is it ? First you said you lost your ISP, now you're saying the power went out.


----------



## mazzatelli

As many here know - I'm not the most coherent thinker and my input to the forum amounts to little

But....I must say imo only - Art Cashin sounds alot like Pit Trader



mazzatelli said:


> I forecast an outside handle will arrive in the forum sometime  soon


----------



## nunthewiser

mazzatelli said:


> But....I must say imo only - Art Cashin sounds alot like Pit Trader





Thought crossed my mind also , i was just too polite to say so 

Maybe we just the paranoid type?


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> Never heard of a stop order?




Your Broker works a your stop into the market if you cannot do it yourself.
Sometimes if you leave it on an electronic platform the market can run thru your stop.


----------



## Art_Cashin

cutz said:


> Which one is it ? First you said you lost your ISP, now you're saying the power went out.





I'm sure you see the point.


----------



## Art_Cashin

mazzatelli said:


> As many here know - I'm not the most coherent thinker and my input to the forum amounts to little
> 
> But....I must say imo only - Art Cashin sounds alot like Pit Trader





Pit you out there...over.


----------



## Art_Cashin

Does anyone know the link Pit Trader refers to in this thread ??
Could you send me a P.M. if you know ???


----------



## professor_frink

Art_Cashin said:


> Does anyone know the link Pit Trader refers to in this thread ??
> Could you send me a P.M. if you know ???




LOL


----------



## nunthewiser

Agrees with the professor

This thread rather an intresting insight into peoples behaviour.

Please continue.


----------



## Alpha_Bet

Art_Cashin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Very heated Thread.
> I would like to add my bit if I may.
> 
> I have used IB and the problem is that if your internet connection drops out
> there is no one to contact quickly.You get some guy who doesn't speak good english and doesn't understand the urgency of the situation.
> I landed up losing a few bucks because of this.I can see Pit Traders point, that trading large volume with IB in Australia my be a problem if your in need of a quick response.I was only trading 2 contracts but if I had 20 or so
> on then I would have lost a great deal more.I now use a locally based broker who I can call and get urgent action if I need it.
> 
> Other than that I can't see a problem with using IB.




Traders trading with a pure Internet based platform with no dealing desk phone contact must have a second broker with which to hedge open positions when these situations occur.


----------



## wayneL

professor_frink said:


> LOL


----------



## Art_Cashin

Alpha_Bet said:


> Traders trading with a pure Internet based platform with no dealing desk phone contact must have a second broker with which to hedge open positions when these situations occur.




Hopefully someone you can ring if your power gets knocked out.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> Hopefully someone you can ring if your power gets knocked out.




At the risk of repeating myself Pit, have you never heard of a stop order? 

What if your phone goes down.

Failing all that I'd take a trip to Mum's place (two minutes away), or the Internet cafe in the village (5 minutes){IB has a browser based TWS}


----------



## cutz

Art_Cashin said:


> I'm sure you see the point.




No I don't see your point,

I'm a small time trader yet I have 2 routers plugged into my desktop with different ISPs, a fully charged laptop stashed away with a third method of connection (USB stick) and if all else fails a dailup account.

I uses two brokers, a primary broker and a secondary.

What's the problem ??

BTW, I just have to laugh out loud at anyone knocking IB.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> At the risk of repeating myself Pit, have you never heard of a stop order?
> 
> What if your phone goes down.
> 
> Failing all that I'd take a trip to Mum's place (two minutes away), or the Internet cafe in the village (5 minutes){IB has a browser based TWS}




Go down to your local shopping centre and buy yourself a $49 mobile.
Last I checked they don't need power to work.

Stop orders can get run through if the market picks up steam.
If I go out and have an position I ring my Broker and he makes sure I get out if my stop gets hit.


----------



## Art_Cashin

cutz said:


> No I don't see your point,
> 
> I'm a small time trader yet I have 2 routers plugged into my desktop with different ISPs, a fully charged laptop stashed away with a third method of connection (USB stick) and if all else fails a dailup account.
> 
> I uses two brokers, a primary broker and a secondary.
> 
> What's the problem ??
> 
> BTW, I just have to laugh out loud at anyone knocking IB.




sure all that is fine but why go to all that trouble when you can just pick up the phone.

For the record I think IB is a good service for small traders.
It's the larger traders that need phone based broker if needed.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> At the risk of repeating myself Pit, have you never heard of a stop order?
> 
> What if your phone goes down.
> 
> Failing all that I'd take a trip to Mum's place (two minutes away), or the Internet cafe in the village (5 minutes){IB has a browser based TWS}




In 5mins the Spi can drop 30 ticks.
20 lots X 25 X 30 =15K

Ouch!!!!


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Art_Cashin said:


> In 5mins the Spi can drop 30 ticks.
> 20 lots X 25 X 30 =15K
> 
> Ouch!!!!




lol. give it up Pit 

you're just making it worse for yourself.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> In 5mins the Spi can drop 30 ticks.
> 20 lots X 25 X 30 =15K
> 
> Ouch!!!!




I repeat my question:

Have you never heard of a stop order?


----------



## Alpha_Bet

cutz said:


> No I don't see your point,
> 
> I'm a small time trader yet I have 2 routers plugged into my desktop with different ISPs, a fully charged laptop stashed away with a third method of connection (USB stick) and if all else fails a dailup account.
> 
> I uses two brokers, a primary broker and a secondary.
> 
> What's the problem ??
> 
> BTW, I just have to laugh out loud at anyone knocking IB.




Add 2 mobile phone with 2 different carriers and you're covered, well maybe add an air raid shelter and canned food
At the end of the trading day the trader must assume full responsibility no matter what.
PS: whatever happened to the options discussion


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> Stop orders can get run through if the market picks up steam.
> If I go out and have an position I ring my Broker and he makes sure I get out if my stop gets hit.




AHAHAHAHAHA!

Ether way there are two ways to initiate a stop order. A stop limit or a stop at market.

Whether you phone this through or enter it online, stop orders work the same, you either take out the available depth, whatever it is, or only at the level of the limit or better.

Your phone broker cannot magically create market depth that doesn't exist (no matter what BS they spin). The bid or ask is either there or it isn't.

IOW your broker can only fulfil your instructions the same way an online platform does.

Fail!!! 

LOL


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> I repeat my question:
> 
> Have you never heard of a stop order?





There a few different types !!


----------



## Art_Cashin

Alpha_Bet said:


> Add 2 mobile phone with 2 different carriers and you're covered, well maybe add an air raid shelter and canned food
> At the end of the trading day the trader must assume full responsibility no matter what.
> PS: whatever happened to the options discussion





Couldn't agree more.


----------



## cutz

Art_Cashin said:


> If I go out and have an position I ring my Broker and he makes sure I get out if my stop gets hit.




Art,

I'm now under the impression that Pit and yourself don't really trade.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> AHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Ether way there are two ways to initiate a stop order. A stop limit or a stop at market.
> 
> Whether you phone this through or enter it online, stop orders work the same, you either take out the available depth, whatever it is, or only at the level of the limit or better.
> 
> Your phone broker cannot magically create market depth that doesn't exist (no matter what BS they spin). The bid or ask is either there or it isn't.
> 
> IOW your broker can only fulfil your instructions the same way an online platform does.
> 
> Fail!!!
> 
> LOL





That is right...Just make sure you enter a stop the second you put on the trade...I however like to use mental stops watch the market action.
Each to their own.


----------



## Art_Cashin

cutz said:


> Art,
> 
> I'm now under the impression that Pit and yourself don't really trade.




Send me your email and I'll send some stuff out to you.


----------



## cutz

Art_Cashin said:


> Send me your email and I'll send some stuff out to you.




That's OK man, don't need to prove it to me.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> That is right...Just make sure you enter a stop the second you put on the trade...I however like to use mental stops watch the market action.
> Each to their own.




You can enter the stop concurrently with the initiating trade. If you like mental stops, great, have an emergency stop further out just in case.

(just remember to cancel it)


----------



## Trembling Hand

Art_Cashin said:


> In 5mins the Spi can drop 30 ticks.
> 20 lots X 25 X 30 =15K
> 
> Ouch!!!!




Surely trading 20 lots you can handle the odd swing against you?

There wouldn't be many 20 lot traders that don't have 1 day a week down 600 ticks...... just another day in  the game........Then again if your a salesman pimping brokerage .................. 


This whole line is a joke. In the scheme of things the odd disconnect is neither here nor there.

Can we move on?


----------



## wayneL

Trembling Hand said:


> This whole line is a joke. In the scheme of things the odd disconnect is neither here nor there.
> 
> Can we move on?




Exactly.

In the last eight years (the period in question) I've had one disconnect. Stop was in place so no drama.

GS fat finger trades are a bigger impact than disconnects. LOL

Subtle spam methinks.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> You can enter the stop concurrently with the initiating trade. If you like mental stops, great, have an emergency stop further out just in case.
> 
> (just remember to cancel it)




It's far easier for to pick up the phone ring my Broker and he sorts it out while I'm on the phone.These guys know how to work and order they don't just sweep the market and get bad fills.You get what you pay for.I'm not pimping any Broker as I said IB is great for small traders...I used  them and would recommend them to anyone who trade 5 lots or less.But bigger lots to me it's 
better to use a local broker...any local broker.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> It's far easier for to pick up the phone ring my Broker and he sorts it out while I'm on the phone.These guys know how to work and order they don't just sweep the market and get bad fills.You get what you pay for.I'm not pimping any Broker as I said IB is great for small traders...I used  them and would recommend them to anyone who trade 5 lots or less.But bigger lots to me it's
> better to use a local broker...any local broker.




Just about everybody on this forum recognized that as nonsense.

Working an order = discretion/human imput = additional contest risk.

Horses for courses, but when I'm trading futures options it's significantly in excess of a 5 lot. There are others apart from IB that are fine, but the local clowns just can't compete on any level for what I want in terms of transparency, platform and price.   

Pimping MF is one thing, but lets talk reality rather than fantasy eh?


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> Just about everybody on this forum recognized that as nonsense.
> 
> Working an order = discretion/human imput = additional contest risk.
> 
> Horses for courses, but when I'm trading futures options it's significantly in excess of a 5 lot. There are others apart from IB that are fine, but the local clowns just can't compete on any level for what I want in terms of transparency, platform and price.
> 
> Pimping MF is one thing, but lets talk reality rather than fantasy eh?




Options are different,on IB the margin is an absolute joke.
So if you are serious about trading options in the futures market you really
are an amature.Go through the process of executing a futures options order
next time you are trading on IB and see what the margin is.They want 10K margin for 1 position.Even a 1 Spi is not 10k.

Why would you trade with IB when your intra day margin is 3.75k and other brokers locally charge 1.5k during daytime hours.Why put up with 7.5k to trade the night session when everywhere else is 6k.

That comment about trading spi options on IB really shows you are not a real options trader.The margins on options are outrageous...Don't take my word for it check it yourself.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> Just about everybody on this forum recognized that as nonsense.
> 
> Working an order = discretion/human imput = additional contest risk.
> 
> Horses for courses, but when I'm trading futures options it's significantly in excess of a 5 lot. There are others apart from IB that are fine, but the local clowns just can't compete on any level for what I want in terms of transparency, platform and price.
> 
> Pimping MF is one thing, but lets talk reality rather than fantasy eh?




For a small trader you are correct.For a large trader that is not the case.


----------



## wayneL

:sleeping:

You have failed to illustrate why this is so.

Sans substantiation, you could equally assert that black is white.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> Options are different,on IB the margin is an absolute joke.
> So if you are serious about trading options in the futures market you really
> are an amature.Go through the process of executing a futures options order
> next time you are trading on IB and see what the margin is.They want 10K margin for 1 position.Even a 1 Spi is not 10k.
> 
> Why would you trade with IB when your intra day margin is 3.75k and other brokers locally charge 1.5k during daytime hours.Why put up with 7.5k to trade the night session when everywhere else is 6k.
> 
> That comment about trading spi options on IB really shows you are not a real options trader.The margins on options are outrageous...Don't take my word for it check it yourself.




EH?

Overnight margin is set by the exchange.

Intraday margin is irrelevant unless day trading.

Are you day trading SPI options?


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> :sleeping:
> 
> You have failed to illustrate why this is so.
> 
> Sans substantiation, you could equally assert that black is white.




For one reason the intra day margins can be as low as 1K for big volume regular customers.
Do IB offer that ??

Why would Hand trade on IB when his intra day margins could be 1K instead of nearly 4K ??

The local guys use Iress which has won many awards for their platform and are industry recognised.So the argument of platform does not enter the discussion.The charts on IB are not that good.Anyone who has used different 
packages knows this.The iress platform is free if you do the volume.
Again it's for larger traders...IB is for smaller guys.

I rest my case !!!


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> For one reason the intra day margins can be as low as 1K for big volume regular customers.
> Do IB offer that ??
> 
> Why would Hand trade on IB when his intra day margins could be 1K instead of nearly 4K ??
> 
> The local guys use Iress which has won many awards for their platform and are industry recognised.So the argument of platform does not enter the discussion.The charts on IB are not that good.Anyone who has used different
> packages knows this.The iress platform is free if you do the volume.
> Again it's for larger traders...IB is for smaller guys.
> 
> I rest my case !!!




LOL

See post above. Intraday margin for options is irrelevant.

Why do big traders use IB then?

BTW have you heard the term "minimum margin = minimum intelligence"?


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> EH?
> 
> Overnight margin is set by the exchange.
> 
> Intraday margin is irrelevant unless day trading.
> 
> Are you day trading SPI options?




You really are out of your depth here.

The exchange can only set the margin once the day is over on options.
IB use their own margin just like they do on the Spi ...7.5K not 6K like the exchange sets.

From experience if you trade Spi options and you are paying more margin than the physical then you being charged incorrect margin.Who in their right mind would pay 8-10K in margin for an option 5-600 points out of the money with less than a month to expiry.Check it yourself on IB and see.
Anyone with the IB platform can do it.


----------



## cutz

Art_Cashin said:


> Who in their right mind would pay 8-10K in margin for an option 5-600 points out of the money with less than a month to expiry




Don't tell me you're also a wings selling penny pincher.


----------



## wayneL

Pit

Why should I be concerned about day margin? I holding the blinkin' options overnight, ergo day margin irrelevant.

ON margin is SPAN.

You are concentrating on trifles that only concern day traders. Even then, only inadequately capitalized amateurs are worried about low day margins.

Discalimer - I don't trade AP options, but trade ES, GC, CL, C, S, W, KC, CC, SB, CT, EU, BP, ZN etc options


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> LOL
> 
> See post above. Intraday margin for options is irrelevant.
> 
> Why do big traders use IB then?
> 
> BTW have you heard the term "minimum margin = minimum intelligence"?




Overnight margin is set by the exchange.
There is discretion for intra day margin on Spi.
very few traders trade Spi options intra day.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> Overnight margin is set by the exchange.
> There is discretion for intra day margin on Spi.
> very few traders trade Spi options intra day.




My point exactly.

So why is intraday margin relevant to options traders?

Folk wisdom for you - When in a hole, it's wise to stop digging.


----------



## mazzatelli

cutz said:


> Don't tell me you're also a wings selling penny pincher.




Why not? He'll provide the market for those of us who want wing gamma


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> Pit
> 
> Why should I be concerned about day margin? I holding the blinkin' options overnight, ergo day margin irrelevant.
> 
> ON margin is SPAN.
> 
> You are concentrating on trifles that only concern day traders. Even then, only inadequately capitalized amateurs are worried about low day margins.
> 
> Discalimer - I don't trade AP options, but trade ES, GC, CL, C, S, W, KC, CC, SB, CT, EU, BP, ZN etc options




You shouldn't my point is the overnight margin on Spi options are a joke.
If you tell me the margin on the others I can compare.

My day margin argument  concerns Spi futures only not options!!!
Last time I checked to trade ES futures intra day was way higher on IB than 
the local guys charge for margin.

Remember the days when IB were charging 15K margin to trade 1 Spi.
Imagine trying to push 20 lots.Imagine if you had some in the overnight kitty and suddenly they wanted double the margin.They would knock you out of the market like a flash.Imagine what would happen if you had options and could not fund the IB margin hike.


----------



## Art_Cashin

wayneL said:


> My point exactly.
> 
> So why is intraday margin relevant to options traders?
> 
> Folk wisdom for you - When in a hole, it's wise to stop digging.




It's not I never stated it was anywhere.
I'm only referring to intra day margins on futures nothin to do with options.


----------



## wayneL

Margin on all contracts is SPAN.

Day margin on futs is 50% of SPAN 

From IB's site



> Futures Options
> Margin requirements are determined by risk based portfolio analysis models specified by each exchange. For specific details, visit the specific exchange site in question. IB futures minimums and 50% Day trading rates will apply.


----------



## wayneL

Art_Cashin said:


> It's not I never stated it was anywhere.
> I'm only referring to intra day margins on futures nothin to do with options.




Intraday futs is 50% of SPAN.

For a well capitalized retail trader, this is fine.

Again, if holding ON, irrelevant.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Low margin, I think I've heard this 'selling point' before... Now where was it again?? Oh thats right from bucket shops,

Hey Pit if Global is so good why did the biggest prop shop in Australia, the true locals, dump them and go with Fortis????????

And who else use Fortis to clear... oh thats right IB. LOL!!


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> Low margin, I think I've heard this 'selling point' before... Now where was it again?? Oh thats right from bucket shops,
> 
> Hey Pit if Global is so good why did the biggest prop shop in Australia, the true locals, dump them and go with Fortis????????
> 
> And who else use Fortis to clear... oh thats right IB. LOL!!




I have no association with any broker.

If a trader was pushing volume day trading why would you pay 4K to trade 1 lot when you could do it for 1k.These guys go out for a cup of coffee and they ring their broker to monitor their position.Try getting IB in HK to do that with 300 10yrs on the go.Ib don't even allow trading in the bonds or bills on the SFE.Bond trading is far bigger than any index futures.There is a clear reason for this no one who trades volume uses them in Aust.Overseas I have no idea who uses what.

Please explain why IB do not trade the bonds or bills on the SFE ?


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> Low margin, I think I've heard this 'selling point' before... Now where was it again?? Oh thats right from bucket shops,
> 
> Hey Pit if Global is so good why did the biggest prop shop in Australia, the true locals, dump them and go with Fortis????????
> 
> And who else use Fortis to clear... oh thats right IB. LOL!!




I trade more Bonds than Spi by a large margin,so do most local guys.
How are IB going to help me here.

Go on.......


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> Low margin, I think I've heard this 'selling point' before... Now where was it again?? Oh thats right from bucket shops,
> 
> Hey Pit if Global is so good why did the biggest prop shop in Australia, the true locals, dump them and go with Fortis????????
> 
> And who else use Fortis to clear... oh thats right IB. LOL!!




No one I know dumped them for anyone.
If they dumped them why didn't they join you at IB.

Your digging a hole here.....


----------



## Trembling Hand

Art_Cashin said:


> No one I know dumped them for anyone.
> If they dumped them why didn't they join you at IB.
> 
> Your digging a hole here.....




Propex who do HUGE spi volume dumped Global. big loss end of story. 

Of course they wouldn't go* to* IB they set up the *same *connectivity as IB.

You are digging your own hole. or should I say digging your own pit. hahahah


----------



## Trembling Hand

Art_Cashin said:


> Please explain why IB do not trade the bonds or bills on the SFE ?



Mate I have no idea why they even bother with the p!ssant SPI?


----------



## Art_Cashin

Trembling Hand said:


> Mate I have no idea why they even bother with the p!ssant SPI?





I'll tell you.

The locals trade mainly bonds and then Spi.They find a broker they are happy with then stick to it.When you are trading 300 10's at a time the broker becomes very important.They get into the Spi then if they need to get out they ring their broker to get them out while they are watching their bond position.They trust their broker as they were traders on the floor before it closed.If they cannot speak to a person who knows the bonds and the spi to work orders for them the broker is no use.IB are a very good internet Broker that serve a purpose in this country.The bigger local brokers serve a different purpose.These guys dont trade from home they rent space and share it with 5-6 other guys and trade all day....mainly the bonds.


----------



## mazzatelli

Art_Cashin said:


> I trade more Bonds than Spi by a large margin,so do most local guys.
> How are IB going to help me here.
> 
> Go on.......




Interesting - a FI trader
May I ask what types of bets you take on these, since they are more involved than trading index/equity spot?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Art_Cashin said:


> I'll tell you.
> 
> The locals trade mainly bonds and then Spi.They find a broker they are happy with then stick to it.When you are trading 300 10's at a time the broker becomes very important.They get into the Spi then if they need to get out they ring their broker to get them out while they are watching their bond position.They trust their broker as they were traders on the floor before it closed.If they cannot speak to a person who knows the bonds and the spi to work orders for them the broker is no use.IB are a very good internet Broker that serve a purpose in this country.The bigger local brokers serve a different purpose.These guys dont trade from home they rent space and share it with 5-6 other guys and trade all day....mainly the bonds.




What now you're trying to pip your trading room space?? Where is it you have empty desks? The City office or Vaucluse one or is it both because they have all moved on?? Your companies a joke. Who would touch you when your are so dishonest. 

Its a friggin joke. No won here is interested. We all stated about 200 post ago if you think you need a local monkey to watch your stops while you have a latte then global sounds great (LOL).


by the way its noted that you have skipped over my question about why propex your biggest customer dumped you? They are just the kind of locals that trade bonds & equities and do the huge volume. So if your service is so good why did they flick you?

As to why IB doesn't offer bonds I thought it would be clear. I would guess that they didn't think it would fit with there customers. Surely as a salesman/women you can see that.


----------



## 42S

TH

It has been a long time since I posted here one of my collegues  brought you post to my attention.

you need to get your facts straight here there is no office in Vaucluse I think you mean Double Bay  who cares anyway .

What he previous poster was trying  to emphasize was  if you are doing any size  you would not be using  IB a fact that is  pretty clear .

I dont know what your beef is with MF ? set up a fortis acc then  .

I think you will find that the vast majority of Locals  trade   FI  anyway  so the SPI  is not  their focus . Propex  do heaps more equity  outrights   .

MF  provides  services for us Locals  who were  previously with Lquay or  Broker one  in the form of infrastructure  etc .
There are  other prop shops  with them .


----------



## Trembling Hand

42s It not me with the screwed facts. Its pit trader BSing with the trades that no one can find on the exchange. LOL. 

Other than mixing up Vaucluse  for double bay (hey I'm Melb) I don't think I've got anything wrong. I have nothing against Golbal other than these facts,

Their decent front ends cost $12,000 per year, (IB close to nothing)
They seem to think having a broker work your stop order while your drink coffee is the ducks guts,
Their volume discounts are not better than IB for what I trade. Last time I asked they wouldn't match what I get from IB trading HSI @ 15.8 HKD per side. (so if you big guns want to bang out 1000s of RT and pay MORE than me I'm happy for you)


But if you bothered to read back before you stuck your head in hear I said very clearly if you like what global offers knock yourself out. It was Pit registering as a second poster and carrying on his dishonest and stupid ranting that has made this thread the wasted space it is. 

I'm more than happy to leave it at that.


----------



## Bob Pisani

Trembling Hand said:


> 42s It not me with the screwed facts. Its pit trader BSing with the trades that no one can find on the exchange. LOL.
> 
> Other than mixing up Vaucluse  for double bay (hey I'm Melb) I don't think I've got anything wrong. I have nothing against Golbal other than these facts,
> 
> Their decent front ends cost $12,000 per year, (IB close to nothing)
> They seem to think having a broker work your stop order while your drink coffee is the ducks guts,
> Their volume discounts are not better than IB for what I trade. Last time I asked they wouldn't match what I get from IB trading HSI @ 15.8 HKD per side. (so if you big guns want to bang out 1000s of RT and pay MORE than me I'm happy for you)
> 
> 
> But if you bothered to read back before you stuck your head in hear I said very clearly if you like what global offers knock yourself out. It was Pit registering as a second poster and carrying on his dishonest and stupid ranting that has made this thread the wasted space it is.
> 
> I'm more than happy to leave it at that.




If you read this thread it very obvious who knows what and who is struggling.


----------



## wayneL

Bob Pisani said:


> If you read this thread it very obvious who knows what and who is struggling.




Hi Pit Trader

Goodbye Pit Trader


----------



## 42S

I knew I would  get a nice bite from TH
Retail  small vols   on equity indicies  IB = fine 

Local or exchange prop member (  SFE ) you are  more than likely to be using MF  ,  by virtue of the vact that yes  you will be doing  ****loads of RT  in comparision to equity index  outright  vols .

Costs   Pre  GFC  MF  wore most  costs if you had decent vols  and besides  you gota pay to play . All cost of business my freind   or if Prop you are not paying it anyway  but you are giving your split away 

cant  see too many  Bills traders  3's  etc changing to IB even if they only do   5, 10- 20K per month. They  are focused on the retail side of things  as you  would already know .

So in essence you are barking up the wrong tree in  that respect . 

I dont care  who clears through who  you could use New Edge or any other for that matter  whatever works for you .

New Edge &  fortis dont offer the  Service MF does anyway  in Physical space etc  so that pretty much  clears that up .


----------



## wayneL

42S said:


> I knew I would  get a nice bite from TH
> Retail  small vols   on equity indicies  IB = fine
> 
> Local or exchange prop member (  SFE ) you are  more than likely to be using MF  ,  by virtue of the vact that yes  you will be doing  ****loads of RT  in comparision to equity index  outright  vols .
> 
> Costs   Pre  GFC  MF  wore most  costs if you had decent vols  and besides  you gota pay to play . All cost of business my freind   or if Prop you are not paying it anyway  but you are giving your split away
> 
> cant  see too many  Bills traders  3's  etc changing to IB even if they only do   5, 10- 20K per month. They  are focused on the retail side of things  as you  would already know .
> 
> So in essence you are barking up the wrong tree in  that respect .
> 
> I dont care  who clears through who  you could use New Edge or any other for that matter  whatever works for you .
> 
> New Edge &  fortis dont offer the  Service MF does anyway  in Physical space etc  so that pretty much  clears that up .




Really, who gives a rat's... unless you're pimping MF of course.


----------



## Trembling Hand

So guys your point is what? If you trade prop you will not be using IB. That a friggin huge revelation, thanks for clearing that up for us all 

I guess the only thing left to clear up is why would someone claim trades that don't exist? and why would anyone want to align themselves with such BS 42S?


----------



## 42S

Why  because  your  rant  is not  correct that is why .

I am not pimping MF  for God's sake  I use them so what ? Aliom  Propex  use Fortis who cares .

Just need some balance here  I have used them for years and have no Probelms .

Come on  get a grip


----------



## Trembling Hand

42S said:


> Why  because  your  rant  is not  correct that is why .
> 
> I am not pimping MF  for God's sake  I use them so what ? Aliom  Propex  use Fortis who cares .
> 
> Just need some balance here  I have used them for years and have no Probelms .
> 
> Come on  get a grip




Arrh which bit exactly is not correct?


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

wayneL said:


> Hi Pit Trader
> 
> Goodbye Pit Trader




LOL. Annnnd hes back.....again 

So....what exactly is this thread about, we got one guy that keeps coming back under different names to prove he isn't full of BS(which in itself proves he is LOL) and along with another guy are both pimping up MF, in which none of us that are with IB are interested in.


----------



## 42S

According to God  only the true Locals  are at Propex .

Oh well I must have been asleep for all those years then .  

Each to their own  and I am not Pimping  MF  I have used fortis as well. It is of no  consequence to me who uses what .


Can you please drop in  when you are in Town TH to  show me how it all works as I  have no idea

Adios


----------



## wayneL

I believe this thread about SPI futures OPTIONS. That's what it says in the title.

Can we get back on topic please


----------



## skc

cutz said:


> Are you sure you're a year 8 option trader and not having a lend ??
> 
> Rule of thumb number one, option delta ATM is ~ 0.5, it's been mentioned several times but you keep banging on about selling 15 lots of futures to get flat.






wayneL said:


> Are you familiar with the phrase "picking up pennies in front of steam rollers"?
> 
> Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with the premise of the trade, it's the hedging strategy and *margin implications *that we all think will blow you up one day.
> 
> Also don't get us wrong, I don't anyone gives a rats about you and your capital, but in a discussion on a public forum, there are lurkers watching and listening. *The discussion and criticism is for the benefit of all.*




Before this thread deteriorated (albeit from a fairly low base) there were somethings I was hoping to learn as a complete options noob. I am trying to get my head around the expiry scenarios, assuming fully hedged at the strike price...

A. Index at 200pts below strike. Put gets exercised at 200pt loss, hedge makes 200pt gain. Premium collected and brokerage / spread incurred.

B. Index at 200pts above strike, with hedge closed out at strike. Put expires not exercised, hedge closed out at breakeven. Premium collected and brokerage / spread / slippage costs incurred.

So aside from the margin requirements during the hold period (which might be managed by say, having a home equity LOC at hand - might not be wise, but feasible), and the fact that index may move around the strike many times to increase the cost of brokerage/spread/slippage of the hedge, are there other possible wipe-out type risks?



nunthewiser said:


> intresting thread ...... heres a summary so far.
> 
> 1. Brokers post there clients statements on websites.
> 
> 2. family member works for JPM
> 
> 3. have friends on the sfe floor
> 
> 4. makes a sheetload of cash.
> 
> 5. WayneL has lots of posts and educated.
> 
> All of the above have been posted during this discussion to validate that the poster is correct and has the relevant trading experience and contacts to educate us mere mortals into being Guru options traders also .
> 
> Please continue.




6. Blame macbook for unable to produce broker statements.

7. When losing debate, sign up as new members to support your own arguments or change topics.


----------



## MRC & Co

Art_Cashin said:


> In 5mins the Spi can drop 30 ticks.
> 20 lots X 25 X 30 =15K
> 
> Ouch!!!!




lol, with the well known European bank run bot in the SPI, that can be a regular day, broker or stop or not!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Back on topic, hahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

Why wouldn't you just use XJO options? As long as you are not trading 1 or 3 lot SPI to hedge surely the more liquid XJO options would be where you want to be. Or has it something to do with the SPI price? divs? something else?


----------



## wayneL

skc said:


> Before this thread deteriorated (albeit from a fairly low base) there were somethings I was hoping to learn as a complete options noob. I am trying to get my head around the expiry scenarios, assuming fully hedged at the strike price...
> 
> A. Index at 200pts below strike. Put gets exercised at 200pt loss, hedge makes 200pt gain. Premium collected and brokerage / spread incurred.
> 
> B. Index at 200pts above strike, with hedge closed out at strike. Put expires not exercised, hedge closed out at breakeven. Premium collected and brokerage / spread / slippage costs incurred.
> 
> So aside from the margin requirements during the hold period (which might be managed by say, having a home equity LOC at hand - might not be wise, but feasible), and the fact that index may move around the strike many times to increase the cost of brokerage/spread/slippage of the hedge, are there other possible wipe-out type risks?




1/ The above scenario presumes neat moves through the strike and seamless trades at the same (just the contest risk). Nice work if you can get it. In reality it may not happen that way. 

2/ Look at the face value of the trade ( 20 x 25 x index value = ~ $2,000,000) and think of a black swan scenario

3/ Margin - can multiply itself in a volatile move to the strike. Just how much money do you want to lay down for a lousy few grand? How much money have you got? What if you can't meet the margin call?

A good rule of thumb when writing WTFOTM is allocating at least 300% of SPAN as capital to finance that trade. However that is with the presumption of hedging in a stepwise fashion, before the strike is hit. Waiting for the strike to be hit before doing anything may require 500% of SPAN or more. Even that may not be enough for a volatile adverse move right off the bat.

There is a very good thread on another forum where this very same scenario happened.

This clown wrote WTFOTM FTSE puts to prove how well it works. This was in 2008. You can fill in the blanks but he couldn't meet the margin call and had to lock in a colossal loss.


----------



## wayneL

Trembling Hand said:


> Back on topic, hahahahahahahahahahah!!!!
> 
> Why wouldn't you just use XJO options? As long as you are not trading 1 or 3 lot SPI to hedge surely the more liquid XJO options would be where you want to be. Or has it something to do with the SPI price? divs? something else?




SPAN margining I guess.

It's why I usually use ES over SPX


----------



## Sell 20 lots

skc said:


> Before this thread deteriorated (albeit from a fairly low base) there were somethings I was hoping to learn as a complete options noob. I am trying to get my head around the expiry scenarios, assuming fully hedged at the strike price...
> 
> A. Index at 200pts below strike. Put gets exercised at 200pt loss, hedge makes 200pt gain. Premium collected and brokerage / spread incurred.
> 
> B. Index at 200pts above strike, with hedge closed out at strike. Put expires not exercised, hedge closed out at breakeven. Premium collected and brokerage / spread / slippage costs incurred.
> 
> So aside from the margin requirements during the hold period (which might be managed by say, having a home equity LOC at hand - might not be wise, but feasible), and the fact that index may move around the strike many times to increase the cost of brokerage/spread/slippage of the hedge, are there other possible wipe-out type risks?
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Blame macbook for unable to produce broker statements.
> 
> 7. When losing debate, sign up as new members to support your own arguments or change topics.




Before we start I'm not Pit or Art.
I do know the person and have spoken.
Has asked me relay that due to being banned from this site
can no longer post reply.
Has told me I will probably get banned by WayneL but has asked me to 
let the members know the reason for the lack of response.

If you dont here from me again I have probably been banned too.

O&O.....


----------



## Sell 20 lots

Has also asked me to post this from the blog he has referred to previously.


Last week we had 5 profitable trading days.

Our success was due to some good anaylsis and patience.Waiting for the market to come to us and not chasing the price is KEY to successful trading.The market needs to be traded from the outside not the inside.There is a big difference between to two.


As we suspected the 4460 level held firm throughout the day.We will continue to monitor this level as is important resistance and needs to be watched.While we remain below this level we remain bearish on the Spi.The action on Friday was slow as we reported due to it being Friday and a long weekend in the US.

We managed a good trade selling in to the the move toward 4460 and covered 10 points below.

Today we will sell anything around this level(4460) if a rally eventuates.The first level of support comes in around 4400 and then if that is broken the 4360-70 level acts as support.We will monitor volumes around these levels to look for entry points.4350 is an important level and if the sellers take control we will look to add some longs around here.

For disclosure purposes I do have an affiliation to this blog !!!!


----------



## nunthewiser

unreal


----------



## Kryzz

"Bob Pisani", "Pit Trader", "Art Cashin", "Sell 20 Lots"...maybe he's going for a record no. of accounts for one person?


----------



## acouch

Kryzz said:


> "Bob Pisani", "Pit Trader", "Art Cashin", "Sell 20 Lots"...maybe he's going for a record no. of accounts for one person?




he seems to have a lot of time on his hands..
ac


----------



## skc

wayneL said:


> 1/ The above scenario presumes neat moves through the strike and seamless trades at the same (just the contest risk). Nice work if you can get it. In reality it may not happen that way.
> 
> 2/ Look at the face value of the trade ( 20 x 25 x index value = ~ $2,000,000) and think of a black swan scenario
> 
> 3/ Margin - can multiply itself in a volatile move to the strike. Just how much money do you want to lay down for a lousy few grand? How much money have you got? What if you can't meet the margin call?
> 
> A good rule of thumb when writing WTFOTM is allocating at least 300% of SPAN as capital to finance that trade. However that is with the presumption of hedging in a stepwise fashion, before the strike is hit. Waiting for the strike to be hit before doing anything may require 500% of SPAN or more. Even that may not be enough for a volatile adverse move right off the bat.
> 
> There is a very good thread on another forum where this very same scenario happened.
> 
> This clown wrote WTFOTM FTSE puts to prove how well it works. This was in 2008. You can fill in the blanks but he couldn't meet the margin call and had to lock in a colossal loss.




Thanks. No idea how SPAN is calculated, however.


----------



## Hit the Bid

Sell 20 lots said:


> Has also asked me to post this from the blog he has referred to previously.
> 
> 
> Last week we had 5 profitable trading days.
> 
> Our success was due to some good anaylsis and patience.Waiting for the market to come to us and not chasing the price is KEY to successful trading.The market needs to be traded from the outside not the inside.There is a big difference between to two.
> 
> 
> As we suspected the 4460 level held firm throughout the day.We will continue to monitor this level as is important resistance and needs to be watched.While we remain below this level we remain bearish on the Spi.The action on Friday was slow as we reported due to it being Friday and a long weekend in the US.
> 
> We managed a good trade selling in to the the move toward 4460 and covered 10 points below.
> 
> Today we will sell anything around this level(4460) if a rally eventuates.The first level of support comes in around 4400 and then if that is broken the 4360-70 level acts as support.We will monitor volumes around these levels to look for entry points.4350 is an important level and if the sellers take control we will look to add some longs around here.
> 
> For disclosure purposes I do have an affiliation to this blog !!!!




If this Blog is for real that is copied in here surely it needs attention.
If it had 5 good days then thats something to be taken seriously.
If the commentary for today was "sell anything around 4460" was posted before market open then it was GOOD advice for today.

Apart from all the heated debate if one positive aspect is a blog that can 
have some accurate calls on the Spi then all this was worth it.


----------



## nunthewiser

ROFLMAO!.

i repeat...............unreal!


----------



## Kryzz

Kryzz said:


> "Bob Pisani", "Pit Trader", "Art Cashin", "Sell 20 Lots"...maybe he's going for a record no. of accounts for one person?




add: Hit the Bid

this dude's a machine!!


----------



## nunthewiser

instead of spamming this joint with your pathetic attempt at getting traffic to your blog .. why not post your calls here in real time instead darl ?

word of warning tho . hindsight calls will be treated with the ridicule they deserve.


----------



## Hit the Bid

nunthewiser said:


> instead of spamming this joint with your pathetic attempt at getting traffic to your blog .. why not post your calls here in real time instead darl ?
> 
> word of warning tho . hindsight calls will be treated with the ridicule they deserve.




I'll ignore the insults as I'm a newbie.

Does anyone know when the call for today was made ?
Without jumping all over me,was it before the market opened ?


----------



## nunthewiser

Hey!..... Even better!

Why not pay for some advertising space here instead?


----------



## nunthewiser

Hit the Bid said:


> I'll ignore the insults as I'm a newbie.




Your multi alias spam attack is an insult to my intelligence.

Grow up.

now that IS an insult


----------



## nulla nulla

Sell 20 lots said:


> Before we start I'm not Pit or Art.
> I do know the person and have spoken.
> Has asked me relay that due to being banned from this site
> can no longer post reply.
> Has told me I will probably get banned by WayneL but has asked me to
> let the members know the reason for the lack of response.
> 
> If you dont here from me again I have probably been banned too.
> 
> O&O.....




Reminds me of the Pauline Hanson Video "If you are watching this, it means I am dead." Substitute "banned" for "dead".


----------

