# Your tax dollars at work



## Julia (18 July 2007)

I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:

Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
The woman's son, 30, also receiving a Disability Pension, plus a Carer's Allowance for looking after his mother.  He has schizophrenia.

Total fortnightly income for this household is $1800.

They use this almost entirely for internet gambling and then request access to food vouchers from a charity to provide their food.


----------



## alanding (18 July 2007)

worse in NT.
Lots of people are jobless and get money from centrelink. Then buy drink, get drunk.


----------



## resourcesman (19 July 2007)

.........i hope they don't breed


----------



## toothfairy (19 July 2007)

resourcesman said:


> .........i hope they don't breed




Good politicians and goverment will invest wisely in better and more accessible EDUCATION for all which we don't have @ the moment. Cutting back in $ spent in Universities and demanding more & more fees paying students by the Liberal goverment does not help! It is a long sighted view and investment which Johnny needs new spectacles to deal with. Or a change of government.


----------



## trinity (19 July 2007)

> i hope they don't breed




I'm with you on this one, resources man.  I feel bad knowing that some people are just wasting tax payers hard earned money on gambling, alcohol, drugs, just because they are lazy.

But what exactly is their disability?  Gambling addiction?

OK, what are the statistics on this?  How many police can you employ to check up on these sorts of people?  Apologies, I do not know how centrelink works, I assume the pension gets paid automatically to the pensioners bank account.  Maybe they should just get rent vouchers, utilities vouchers.  Well, this is probably an admin headache, compared to just throwing money at them.


----------



## Julia (19 July 2007)

trinity said:


> I'm with you on this one, resources man.  I feel bad knowing that some people are just wasting tax payers hard earned money on gambling, alcohol, drugs, just because they are lazy.
> 
> But what exactly is their disability?  Gambling addiction?
> 
> OK, what are the statistics on this?  How many police can you employ to check up on these sorts of people?  Apologies, I do not know how centrelink works, I assume the pension gets paid automatically to the pensioners bank account.  Maybe they should just get rent vouchers, utilities vouchers.  Well, this is probably an admin headache, compared to just throwing money at them.



Trinity, your suggestion of vouchers is really sensible.  Trouble is, there would be a huge outcry from the civil libertarians that governments were removing people's right of choice etc etc.

Yes, their pension does get paid into their bank accounts, and the whole fortnightly amount is sometimes gone in the first few days.

And yes, policing abuse of the funds would be next to impossible.
A brave government would adopt the idea of rent being paid to landlord, pro rata fortnightly amount to the electricity supplier etc before the pensioner can access what is left.


----------



## son of baglimit (19 July 2007)

a lot of people have all their bills paid fortnightly, deliberately paid by the pension providers to allow the recipients to understand how much they have left to spend at their leisure......regretably centrelink arent one of those providers, and this method has to be requested by recipient.


----------



## theasxgorilla (19 July 2007)

Julia said:


> I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:
> 
> Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
> A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
> ...




Good case for the 'Australian' Smartcard.  Join the systems that need to be joined so these people get the assistance (not the handouts) they need.


----------



## visual (19 July 2007)

Julia,
I`m not familiar with the American way of doing things,but from what I understand they can only stay on welfare for a certain amount of time and then they have to get a job,but from watching Judge Judy you get the impression that there`s lots of layers to their system ,which in the end leads to the same rorts that we see here.Again that is what I`ve learned through TV so probably not very accurate,but at the end of the day when you make money available to people who don`t have to work for it,it always seems to become too much of an attraction not to abuse.

Vouchers seem like a good idea though,they`re  used for schools and such but again only for half of the amount,so kids still don`t get their uniforms or books which is what that half is meant to be kept aside for.


----------



## BradK (19 July 2007)

Damnit... looks like I'll be the bleeding heart leftie here.... 

Although people who frequent share forums have the get up and go to achieve or at least aim for financial independence, not everyone is wired that way. 

Often, these lives are lived out because daddy and grandaddy did it too. I know, my daddy and grandaddy lived the kinds of lives you are talking about. 

I got out, and was co-opted into the 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' school, and I have done quite well. However, I remain convinced that governments should help people whose lot in life is worse than ourselves. 

And lets face it... $1800 bucks per fortnight is peanuts for these people in hte context of our resources boom and the budget for fighting the war on terror. 

Shall we kick them while they are down? Try living on the aged pension and rent privately and the sad news is ... they are already being kicked! WAY below the poverty line. 

We are a lucky country. Lucky enough for some people to surf/gamble all day courtesy of the government and our tax payer funded dole. Good on them, I say! Drop out if you can - because they are NOT financially being rewarded for it. 

Cheers
Brad


----------



## visual (19 July 2007)

Bradk,
these are not choices to be made willingly,these are our dollars they are choosing to waste,by your reckoning I should then have the right not to pay taxes so these choosers don`t get to choose to waste my money


----------



## BradK (19 July 2007)

visual said:


> Bradk,
> these are not choices to be made willingly,these are our dollars they are choosing to waste,by your reckoning I should then have the right not to pay taxes so these choosers don`t get to choose to waste my money




I have worked with these people... and I can tell you, its like banging your head against a brick wall to knock some financial sense into them. I am not being cynical, but just see that often these are the ones that are good targets to kick yet we dont question how other money is spent by the government. 

My point is... these are the least of our worries. We are ALREADY punishing them by forcing them to live WAY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE. 

If they want to surf... let is all I say

Cheers
Brad


----------



## Buster (20 July 2007)

Hey Brad,



BradK said:


> My point is... these are the least of our worries. We are ALREADY punishing them by forcing them to live WAY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.




$900 a week below the poverty line???? I  thought the average wage at the moment was about $50k... and then the earners have to pay tax for the 'freeloaders' that choose to be parasites who get these handouts (and don't pay tax!!)

Get's my goat.. but you are right, there are a lot of other areas the government fails to spend our taxpayer dollars wisely also..

Regards,

Buster


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

BradK said:


> I have worked with these people... and I can tell you, its like banging your head against a brick wall to knock some financial sense into them. I am not being cynical, but just see that often these are the ones that are good targets to kick yet we dont question how other money is spent by the government.
> 
> My point is... these are the least of our worries. We are ALREADY punishing them by forcing them to live WAY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
> 
> ...




Brad,
do you reckon that if welfare was harder to get,they`d still be so hard to knock some sense into?

As for other government waste,agree,but still ,
I live two doors down from someone who has been on welfare for twenty five years.Recently had his house totally done over,thanks to the government,talking to him,we suggested that maybe now was the time to actually buy the house from the government,he was appalled ,he reckons that he didn`t pay for any of the maintenance,painting,replacement of hot water tank,concrete re done,didn`t look like there was much wrong with the concrete,but anyway,carpets replacement..his point was that he never even pays for the light globes ,so why would he want to buy the house for?

By the way he has no problems working cash in hand,full time.
There`s no way he would be able to fill the recycling bin with beer bottles otherwise,

That`s what really annoys me about these abuses.


Having said that, I actually have no problem with people getting a hand up,but it`s these sorts of abuses that I wish were harder to ......anyway,can`t think of the word.

Good night


----------



## yonnie (20 July 2007)

Buster said:


> Hey Brad,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Buster, Julia said $1800 per fortnight for the 3 of them, so thats $300 each per week.

And thats because they`re on a disability pension/carers benefit.

I would`ve thought that its their business how to spend their money, although its sad ofcourse.

Remember we`re not born/made equally

Just be happy that you have a better future than always living in despair.


----------



## Buster (20 July 2007)

Hey Vet,



yonnie said:


> Buster, Julia said $1800 per fortnight for the 3 of them, so thats $300 each per week. And thats because they`re on a disability pension/carers benefit..




Ahh, Yep, you're right.. still factor in the rental assistance, food vouchers etc etc.. they seem to be doing alright. Anyone that can afford to fritter $900 a week gambling is doing it pretty easy I'd say..



yonnie said:


> I would`ve thought that its their business how to spend their money, although its sad ofcourse..




I think you're missing the point.. it's not thier money, it's ours that has been given to them to fullfill thier basic requirements of existing.. food, washing powder etc.. not for gambling!!



yonnie said:


> Remember we`re not born/made equally



Yeah, shame that.. I'd probably have more drinking buddies if that were the case..



yonnie said:


> Just be happy that you have a better future than always living in despair.



Oh, I'm more than happy with my lot in life, just can't help thinking how much better the "better" future could be if my tax dollars were not being squandered on someones booze, smokes and gambling fund..

I'm with Visual, apply the rules more stringently and you might find these type of people may have an attitute change.. we might even reduce the numbers on welfare if it's less hassle to get a job than apply for welfare..  

Here's an idea, instead of allowing them (general 'them' not those discussed in this thread) to sleep in every morning, laze around the house etc etc  make then responsible to arrive at a particular location and do 'something' for the normal working day in order to recieve thier welfare money.. dunno perhaps we could split them into two groups, one group to make cane baskets, and one group to pull them apart again..  I'm tipping if they actaully had to 'do' something, many may just go out and get a job..  who knows..

Vis, I'd have no qualms about reporting the 'rorter' that you described.. even if only 10% were picked up and charged we would have swags of extra 'revenue' to.. errr.. squander elsewhere.. 

my

Regards,

Buster


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

Buster,
have you ever tried to do just that!
The system is geared to protecting these people,after all if only genueni people could access these funds most of the do gooders would actually find themselves out of a job and God forbid would have to put a good day`s worth of work themselves.

I actually tried to do that to someone else,who worked with my husband,he showed off about how well he was doing on the pension,so upon ringing up I found myself being given the thrid degree about why I would want to dob this guy in!!!!!!My point was that he had no problems lifting heavy parcels all on his own but would then get his cane out when he was finished in case he was being watched presumably,anyway nothing ever came of that,and he got to live a good life at our expense,beach house,brand new house ,new car,I mean how does that not sets off alarm bells,

By the way he actually showed off that the money he was earning cash in hand was great ,really couldn`t understand why more people were`nt claiming benefits like he was.He was working every day and basically full time,most of the work he did at home though.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 July 2007)

resourcesman said:


> .........i hope they don't breed




The dysfunctionals breed more than the good people.It is a source of income and they have nothing else to do but lay around and f### all day.


----------



## insider (20 July 2007)

Shouldn't there be a system where you have to hold onto all the receipts to prove that you are spending the money wisely? I can imagine something like this taking up a lot of of precious government workers time so maybe apply this rule to house holds and families that claim more than two pensions... Just a thought...


----------



## insider (20 July 2007)

Julia said:


> I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:
> 
> Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
> A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
> ...




Julia... smash me in the head with a hammer so that I can become mentally disabled... then we can join our disability pensions together and live like royalty...


----------



## dj_420 (20 July 2007)

visual said:


> Julia,
> I`m not familiar with the American way of doing things,but from what I understand they can only stay on welfare for a certain amount of time and then they have to get a job,but from watching Judge Judy you get the impression that there`s lots of layers to their system ,which in the end leads to the same rorts that we see here.Again that is what I`ve learned through TV so probably not very accurate,but at the end of the day when you make money available to people who don`t have to work for it,it always seems to become too much of an attraction not to abuse.
> 
> Vouchers seem like a good idea though,they`re  used for schools and such but again only for half of the amount,so kids still don`t get their uniforms or books which is what that half is meant to be kept aside for.




in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.

i think australia should take a tough stance on this also. abolish the pension, make work for the dole more strict, make getting welfare harder. 

i hope everyone realises there is no welfare system in japan and they pay an income tax of what around 9%???

think about that for a minute. if we had no welfare system or a very limited one our income tax would be dramatically reduced. prob down to a rate of between 10-15%. most of the people on this forum would be in a higher tax bracket and IMO it is unfair the was the tax system is setup.

now saying this i work in a Job Network Member and half of the people on the system work "cashies" anyway. the other half are not motivated to get work and are more than happy to live on $380 per fortnight from the govt.

people think the system works, well as long as your happy handing over 45% of your wage in taxes then yeah it does work. completely unfair that people should be taxed to pay for some person sitting at home or punching all their money through the pokies.

i tell you it is more than banging your head against a brickwall. it is much much worse and anyone who has worked in this area will tell you so.

i could go on and on all day with examples of what happens. in the end it will be public outcry that makes a difference. instead we are far to subdued and happy to give away out money for other peoples addictions.


----------



## happytrader (20 July 2007)

Julia said:


> I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:
> 
> Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
> A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
> ...




Three adults living in a caravan sounds pretty miserable let alone one with a psych condition and the other disabled. I would have thought they would be high on the list for a housing commission home. Of course that is if they aren't in arrears with them.

Poor people are disabled in the way that they are passive and dependent and allow life to happen to them instead of being active participants.

Since they are in the minority and pretty invisible, I can't begrudge them afew bucks.


Cheers
Happytrader


----------



## BradK (20 July 2007)

dj_420 said:


> in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.




God, give me strength. Yes, lets become more like America!!!!! 

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that their civil society is model to uphold?????? 

Brad


----------



## theasxgorilla (20 July 2007)

dj_420 said:


> in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.
> 
> i think australia should take a tough stance on this also. abolish the pension, make work for the dole more strict, make getting welfare harder.
> 
> i hope everyone realises there is no welfare system in japan and they pay an income tax of what around 9%???




I take it you've been to America and Japan?  I take it that _scumville_ is okay by you, as is living with mum and dad until you're 40??

You should perhaps consult the United Nations Human Development index:

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

Perhaps you wonder why Norway is number 1, Australia is number 3 an Sweden is number 5, inspite of the taxes and welfare systems in those countries, and Japan and the US could only manage 7th and 8th.  Or why low-tax Hong Kong is all the way down at 22?

There is far more to the equation than just tax rates and welfare.  Australia is not perfect but on the global scale its actually pretty close.  The good news is there IS room for improvement...things can still get better.


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

And thanks to ACA we`ve just had the heart rending story of a struggling family who are forced to stay in a caravan park,in a cabin, who`ve been waiting for a housing commision house for eleven years.Seven kids later and a plasma television later they still can`t get a house or a job.Where did the money come from for the plasma tv.

Again no problem with deserving people getting a hands up,but why can`t these people be held responsable for their actions.


----------



## theasxgorilla (20 July 2007)

visual said:


> Where did the money come from for the plasma tv.




Well the AUD is up and they have come down a lot in price


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> I take it you've been to America and Japan?  I take it that _scumville_ is okay by you, as is living with mum and dad until you're 40??
> 
> You should perhaps consult the United Nations Human Development index:
> 
> ...



Yes

As much as high tax really p!sses me off (or rather the senseless squander of public money) I would much prefer these countries mentioned than the USA any day of the week. Money wealth and low taxes are good, but what sort of society do we want?

Places like Japan have a strong homogeneous culture which basically precludes poor folks taking up mugging for a living, like what happens in the US.  

I was raised in America, and believe me, we do not want to be like them. We've already gone too far down that path IMO.


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

but what sort of society do we want?

Wayne,
what about a society that doesn`t rob Paul to pay Peter?


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2007)

visual said:


> but what sort of society do we want?
> 
> Wayne,
> what about a society that doesn`t rob Paul to pay Peter?



Yep agree with that tenet, unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.

Unfortunately, in our dog eat dog multicultural society, Peter will just rob Paul anyway if he is not "entitled" to benefits.

Believe me, I'm very cynical about the whole welfare state thing, but I've lived the alternative. It's fine so long as fortune favours you. If something goes wrong, you are thrown to the dogs.


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

wayneL said:


> Yep agree with that tenet, unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.
> 
> Unfortunately, in our dog eat dog multicultural society, Peter will just rob Paul anyway if he is not "entitled" to benefits.
> 
> Believe me, I'm very cynical about the whole welfare state thing, but I've lived the alternative. It's fine so long as fortune favours you. If something goes wrong, you are thrown to the dogs.





Oi careful with the racism,that`s my job remember :

:horse:
unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.
Never had a problem with the above,however I think it`s true to say that most of the money goes to those who actually rorts the system,without entitlement


----------



## Buster (20 July 2007)

Hey ASF'ers

I agree with those that look to the U.S welfare system and wish to avoid it here in OZ.. The US system is extremely harsh and cruel, certainly doesn't support much at all..  

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a strong social safety net, and I don't mind paying Tax.. Hey, I lived in the US for a couple of years and have travelled extensively throughout the world.. our standard of living is well worth paying for. 

However I certainly don't believe that welfare should be funding anything other than the necessities, not booze, not smokes, not gambling and not plasma TV's.. (I don't even have a Plasma yet!!)

Regards,

Buster


----------



## Julia (20 July 2007)

Thanks for interesting and varied responses.

I'm really happy for my tax dollars to go towards supporting those who really need assistance and would like to see some people get a lot more help than they do now, specifically people with a mental illness and those who are otherwise disabled.  They are truly at the bottom of the heap and  often not regarded by any authorities as even having a vote.

They live in these woeful caravan parks where they are abused in every way by the parasites around them, e.g. druggies etc, and are mostly so desperate for company they will lend their meagre amounts of money to anyone who asks, no matter how often you tell them not to do this.

But that is an entirely different matter from people with a questionable entitlement to a Disability Pension (sometimes these are granted just because the government doctor is in a good mood that day), who waste their benefits and then go asking for more in order to feed themselves or pay the rent.

Yes, there is a case for being sympathetic towards people whose lives are so bereft of meaning that the brief stimulation from a poker machine is the best they can hope for.  But that doesn't in any way change their lives.
The suggestion of having something to do every day (government directed) is a good one - perhaps something a bit more meaningful than putting together cane baskets and taking them apart again - but something definite with an achieved outcome at the end of it.  

I guess the trouble is with that sort of scheme is that it would take large resources to initiate and run and essentially no one cares enough.


----------



## Julia (20 July 2007)

visual said:


> I actually tried to do that to someone else,who worked with my husband,he showed off about how well he was doing on the pension,so upon ringing up I found myself being given the thrid degree about why I would want to dob this guy in!!!!!!




Visual, I'm really amazed to hear this.  Centrelink makes quite a song and dance about encouraging the public to dob in abusers.  I guess they have to make sure you are not just indulging in a personal vendetta for some reason.


----------



## trinity (20 July 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by yonnie View Post
> I would`ve thought that its their business how to spend their money, although its sad ofcourse..
> I think you're missing the point.. it's not thier money, it's ours that has been given to them to fullfill thier basic requirements of existing.. food, washing powder etc.. not for gambling!!




Just to sort of summarize the solutions we have proposed (pros & cons), given the premise that we are talking about people who abuse the system, and how to protect people who genuinely need the welfare payments.

1.  vouchers, receipts - administrative nightmare
2.  a "credit card" which can be used to pay landlord, food (not liquor), utilities - viable?  something which you can't use to sign up to online gambling with
3.  limit welfare to a year - unless person has real disability?

IMHO,  we are perceived to be limiting their freedom if we control how they want to spend "their" money, however, I think that welfare-people have given up that freedom when they chose to become dependent on the dole anyways?


----------



## Julia (20 July 2007)

insider said:


> Julia... smash me in the head with a hammer so that I can become mentally disabled... then we can join our disability pensions together and live like royalty...




Just a tiny problem with that suggestion, Insider.  I'd end up in jail for assault and you'd find a single DSP a bit hard to live on.


----------



## disarray (20 July 2007)

expand work for the dole. make compulsory military service for the long term unemployed. some structure and discipline that also provides training would work wonders for the aimless.


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Visual, I'm really amazed to hear this.  Centrelink makes quite a song and dance about encouraging the public to dob in abusers.  I guess they have to make sure you are not just indulging in a personal vendetta for some reason.




Julia,
I understand that,however I was basically informing them that this person claimed to be on a disability and was in fact working.It ultimately should have been up to them to check my claim out with the guy,instead from memory they didn`t even take down the address of the workplace that this guy was collecting his work from.Apparently being on a disability entitled him to work a certain number of hours and so they were good with that.The fact that he was lifting boxes,without any problems wasn`t even a problem as far as they were concerned,it was him who showed off about his disability and how much he was getting and it was him who would put his neck brace on and off to suit himself,and of course the cane always came out when he was finished loading the van.I didn`t even know him,I just didn`t think that he should`ve been so cocky about ripping off the system.


----------



## visual (20 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Just a tiny problem with that suggestion, Insider.  I'd end up in jail for assault and you'd find a single DSP a bit hard to live on.




Julia be positive,you`d have to assualt him many times before that happened,remember the judicial system works on re habilitation and second chances and third chances and fourth chances and last chances and now a suspended sentence after that, the benefit of the doubt,maybe because you were drunk and under stress about sharing the caravan with him,after that counselling and then oh for God sake off to jail with you,so I reckon you could get away with a few years of DSP.Who knows he might even win at the pokies and then you could both divvy up the winnings and go your separate ways.Unless of course he doesn`t tell you and runs off.In which case you could then simply go back to your life and no one would be none the wiser.


----------



## Julia (21 July 2007)

visual said:


> Julia be positive,you`d have to assualt him many times before that happened,remember the judicial system works on re habilitation and second chances and third chances and fourth chances and last chances and now a suspended sentence after that, the benefit of the doubt,maybe because you were drunk and under stress about sharing the caravan with him,after that counselling and then oh for God sake off to jail with you,so I reckon you could get away with a few years of DSP.Who knows he might even win at the pokies and then you could both divvy up the winnings and go your separate ways.Unless of course he doesn`t tell you and runs off.In which case you could then simply go back to your life and no one would be none the wiser.




Wow, Visual, such creativity!  Sadly, you are probably pretty right in terms of the reality of our judicial system.
Still, with no offence to your helpful suggestions, I think I'll not pursue Insider's suggestions (or yours)!


----------



## dj_420 (21 July 2007)

ok im not saying i want our country to be like the US, all im doing is comparing different social security systems.

99.9% of the people i have worked with do not have any motivation to get work, are more than happy to live of welfare, avoid any obligations to the Job Network Members and Centrelink, and will also endeavour to work "cash" jobs so they can obtain both centrelink benefits and extra cash in hand.

i suggest people who support the welfare system and cry out that it works go and work within it for a while and see if your attitude remains the same.

i however state that there are people who do need help such as disability, carer support etc. BUT for the whole system needs an overhaul.



all i stated was the system NEEDS to be tougher, tougher access, tougher rules, everything needs to be tightened down.

you do realise that if all the baby boomers retired onto the pension the system would completely crash, EXTRA taxes for the hardworking, that sounds like fun!


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 July 2007)

> dj_420;182082   all i stated was the system NEEDS to be tougher, tougher access, tougher rules, everything needs to be tightened down.




Six months search time and if no job,courses or volunteer work is taken on then it`s  work for the dole.

Six months without anything is a good indication that the individual has no inclination to work for pay.

Depression and no self worth start to take control and then it`s harder to prise their rrrrrr`s off the seat.


----------



## krisbarry (21 July 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Depression and no self worth start to take control and then it`s harder to prise their rrrrrr`s off the seat.





Interesting quote that one...The same could be said about being in the workforce.  Many people in the workforce also suffer with depression and self worth issues as a direct result of working, some so bad they have to give up work and go on benefits.

Some jobs make people fall into depression, some bosses, and co-workers make people fall into depression due to harrasment/job stress.  Some jobs are just far too stressful for people that they simply just cannot cope.  Multi-skilling, downsizing, under-staffing!

One example comes to mind of a big Australian company "Telstra" and the pressure placed on a worker...who ended up so stressed out, depressed and eventually suicided...

*So the moral of the story is that having a job or not having a job can lead to the same path!*


----------



## insider (21 July 2007)

It's really down to culture... In Japan people there don't want to go to the doll because they're ashamed and seen as a lesser human being... Some will commit suicide before going to welfare (this is from a Japanese cousin of mine). Here in Australia we don't criticize doll bludgers enough and make it socially unacceptable to accept welfare... forget terrorism... we have social problems to take care of... Three druggies tried to shop lift my parents shop today, one of them was a pregnant girl... What the hell?! Already the baby is a drug addict and it isn't even born...  I hate doll bludgers, druggies etc. to the core... The problem is social... Bring back the law of the jungle... Survival of the fittest... wanna be a druggie? then get lost and die...

Of course it doesn't work like this... We can't kill people for taking drugs like in indonesia... But what if we meet half way and forced people to be put into solitary confinement and made to go cold turkey... Gorgeous!!!  I should be a politician... Put it this way... They're gonna die from their habits anyway so anything would be an improvement..

Bloody druggies... Hate 'em!!!!

with 1800 bucks a fornight they could buy a house and entire a 30 year mortgage


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 July 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:


> *So the moral of the story is that having a job or not having a job can lead to the same path!*




Interesting that you should turn the blame back on others for the self determined circumstances of an individual.I used to think that I was stuck in a situation of someone elses making.Playing/being the victim.

I looked down and saw I had two feet for walking  and two fists for fighting.
Last alternative the latter.


----------



## visual (21 July 2007)

insider said:


> It's really down to culture... In Japan people there don't want to go to the doll because they're ashamed and seen as a lesser human being... Some will commit suicide before going to welfare (this is from a Japanese cousin of mine). Here in Australia we don't criticize doll bludgers enough and make it socially unacceptable to accept welfare... forget terrorism... we have social problems to take care of... Three druggies tried to shop lift my parents shop today, one of them was a pregnant girl... What the hell?! Already the baby is a drug addict and it isn't even born...  I hate doll bludgers, druggies etc. to the core... The problem is social... Bring back the law of the jungle... Survival of the fittest... wanna be a druggie? then get lost and die...
> 
> Of course it doesn't work like this... We can't kill people for taking drugs like in indonesia... But what if we meet half way and forced people to be put into solitary confinement and made to go cold turkey... Gorgeous!!!  I should be a politician... Put it this way... They're gonna die from their habits anyway so anything would be an improvement..
> 
> ...





So Insider,
I take it your offer to Julia has been withdraw!

She will be pleased,:


----------



## Julia (21 July 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting that you should turn the blame back on others for the self determined circumstances of an individual.I used to think that I was stuck in a situation of someone elses making.Playing/being the victim.
> 
> I looked down and saw I had two feet for walking  and two fists for fighting.
> Last alternative the latter.




You are right to draw our attention to personal responsibility.  There is too much of a culture of a victim mentality.

Re the Telstra workers evidenced by STC:  Those people who committed suicide were a very few out of thousands.  It would be hard not to conclude that they had some pre-existing problems which the pressure of a call centre job just tipped over the edge, rather than suggest Telstra was entirely to blame for their situations.

As Wysiwig has said above, they had two feet for walking.  If the job was too stressful, get out and find something with less pressure. As the Telstra representative in that TV programme said "call centre jobs are not for everyone".


----------



## Julia (21 July 2007)

insider said:


> with 1800 bucks a fornight they could buy a house and entire a 30 year mortgage




Yes, probably they could.  But the point is that such a notion would simply never occur to these people.  They have never grown up with any expectation of home ownership, or even of having a real job.

And this is imo the biggest problem in the whole welfare mess:  that multi-generational welfare is becoming so entrenched.  Little kids soon learn that their existence is due to the baby bonus (particularly so with druggies).
Other than in a few cases where an individual has determined to break free from the welfare mentality, these children simply expect a life of government benefits and rented flats or caravan parks.

Re the suggestion of going down the American path and cutting off all welfare after 12 months, how could you justify doing that with someone with a genuine physical or mental disability?  There's a big difference between someone who is just lazy and someone who is genuinely unable to look after themselves.

The best of all possible solutions would be to have individual assessments (ongoing) of every person seeking welfare.  But the cost would be so horrendous that it would never happen.


----------



## Julia (21 July 2007)

visual said:


> So Insider,
> I take it your offer to Julia has been withdraw!
> 
> She will be pleased,:




Whew!


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 July 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interesting that you should turn the blame back on others for the self determined circumstances of an individual.I used to think that I was stuck in a situation of someone elses making.Playing/being the victim.
> 
> I looked down and saw I had two feet for walking  and two fists for fighting.
> Last alternative the latter.




:topic

I re-read my post and thought to add that there is situations that we have no control over.How do you handle being picked on and belittled?It is either fight or flight and not always easy ,especially if one doesn`t know how or can`t.
Julia, hi, the context of my post was not directed at the incident STC referred to, it was a generalisation.


----------



## insider (21 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Whew!




Don't worry we will just live off your disability pension...


----------



## Julia (22 July 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> :topic
> 
> I re-read my post and thought to add that there is situations that we have no control over.How do you handle being picked on and belittled?It is either fight or flight and not always easy ,especially if one doesn`t know how or can`t.
> Julia, hi, the context of my post was not directed at the incident STC referred to, it was a generalisation.




Yes, I realised that it was a generalisation,Wysiwyg.  Sorry if it appeared my remarks didn't acknowledge that.  
And yes, it's not always possible to be assertive if you've been belittled, bullied and abused all your life.  People in that situation have simply never learned any skills about how to handle bullies.  This was also my point about many people with a mental illness who really need physical and emotional support which simply isn't there for them.


----------



## Julia (22 July 2007)

insider said:


> Don't worry we will just live off your disability pension...




Good heavens, insider, have you no pride?  Prepared to live off a woman??


----------



## insider (22 July 2007)

I thought I was a used car salesman!


----------



## theasxgorilla (22 July 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> :topic
> 
> I re-read my post and thought to add that there is situations that we have no control over.How do you handle being picked on and belittled?It is either fight or flight and not always easy ,especially if one doesn`t know how or can`t.
> Julia, hi, the context of my post was not directed at the incident STC ref




There is a third alternative:

http://www.passiveresistance.org/


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> There is a third alternative:
> 
> http://www.passiveresistance.org/



You are full of surprises ASX.G


----------



## Julia (22 July 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> There is a third alternative:
> 
> http://www.passiveresistance.org/




Interesting reference, Gorilla.  Did you mean this specifically with reference to people who are bullied , belittled etc, or as a more general statement in a political sense?


----------



## visual (22 July 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> The best of all possible solutions would be to have individual assessments (ongoing) of every person seeking welfare.  But the cost would be so horrendous that it would never happen.




Julia I disagree,
if the rorters knew that they were likely to be caught due to the ongoing assessements they would probably think twice,and the real needy could be concentrate on ,the money saved could be re routed to the assessment workers,the money is being spent anyway.


----------



## theasxgorilla (22 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Interesting reference, Gorilla.  Did you mean this specifically with reference to people who are bullied , belittled etc, or as a more general statement in a political sense?




Specifically to Wysiwyg's statement about fight or flight, in this case.


----------



## visual (23 July 2007)

Julia,
I was just thinking YOUR tax .......
do you not pay tax?
Julia you are not writing this from afore mentioned caravan are you?:


----------



## Julia (23 July 2007)

visual said:


> Julia,
> I was just thinking YOUR tax .......
> do you not pay tax?
> Julia you are not writing this from afore mentioned caravan are you?:




Sorry, Visual, you have completely lost me.  What does my tax have to do with anything???


----------



## The Mint Man (23 July 2007)

toothfairy said:


> Good politicians and goverment will invest wisely in better and more accessible EDUCATION for all which we don't have @ the moment. Cutting back in $ spent in Universities and demanding more & more fees paying students by the Liberal goverment does not help! It is a long sighted view and investment which Johnny needs new spectacles to deal with. Or a change of government.




You really are a tooth fairy!
These people are not interested in getting educated, they just want to bludge off our tax.

Cut your wings off and get your head out of the clouds!

This post seemed to be more political rather than topic related. So having said that... these type of people Julia has pointed out would want to vote for Rudd because under Labor's Tax policy (from a few years ago as they don't have one for this election) would see us all paying much more tax. The bludgers would love that, all the more for them to get their gruby hands on.

Cheers


----------



## visual (23 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Sorry, Visual, you have completely lost me.  What does my tax have to do with anything???




Julia not whether you pay tax.
Rather your use of the word YOUR as opposed to OUR Tax.


----------



## toothfairy (24 July 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> You really are a tooth fairy!
> These people are not interested in getting educated, they just want to bludge off our tax.
> 
> Cut your wings off and get your head out of the clouds!
> ...



May be you should just go & mint more money out of debt if you like. When U say theeeese type of peeeeeople are not interested, U R already stereotyping and not giving theeese peeeople chances of encouragement and education FROM YOUNG, from birth even. It will take may be one or two generations and, of course it will take someone with long term planning and foresight to do it. Not the faint hearted selfish type who just interested in convincing the voters to paying less tax at the moment and mint more $. I've minted enough $ but IM not scared of paying back tax for good causes.


----------



## visual (24 July 2007)

toothfairy said:


> May be you should just go & mint more money out of debt if you like. When U say theeeese type of peeeeeople are not interested, U R already stereotyping and not giving theeese peeeople chances of encouragement and education FROM YOUNG, from birth even. It will take may be one or two generations and, of course it will take someone with long term planning and foresight to do it. Not the faint hearted selfish type who just interested in convincing the voters to paying less tax at the moment and mint more $. I've minted enough $ but IM not scared of paying back tax for good causes.





Toothfairy,
your attitude has certainly worked for the Aborigines hasn`t it,especially the children who are passing STD to each other,people have to know that with entitlement comes responsability,sure we have a responsability to help those less fortunate or unable to look after themselves.However those who choose us the taxpayers as thier main employer should be made to look after themselves.


----------



## Julia (24 July 2007)

toothfairy said:


> May be you should just go & mint more money out of debt if you like. When U say theeeese type of peeeeeople are not interested, U R already stereotyping and not giving theeese peeeople chances of encouragement and education FROM YOUNG, from birth even. It will take may be one or two generations and, of course it will take someone with long term planning and foresight to do it. Not the faint hearted selfish type who just interested in convincing the voters to paying less tax at the moment and mint more $. I've minted enough $ but IM not scared of paying back tax for good causes.




Toothfairy,

I agree with you in principle.  Most of these people are simply repeating the patterns they have observed in their parents when growing up.  It's what we all do more or less.

I can't begin to envisage the mechanics of how you would interrupt this multi-generational conditioning and introduce effective change.  Do you have any ideas?

And then there's the ever present nature/nurture debate - what role do our genes play in our progress in life?  Can education/training overcome these?


----------



## toothfairy (24 July 2007)

Julia said:


> Toothfairy,
> 
> I agree with you in principle.  Most of these people are simply repeating the patterns they have observed in their parents when growing up.  It's what we all do more or less.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments, Julia.
Firstly, we must establish is Australia the worst place on earth that these people are expoiting taxpayers' money. We probably is amongst the worst. It seems to be a thing of the well to do Western nations wth good social benefits. So it is developed that way through the last few generations of wealth. I have no evidence to say that it is genetically related and I don't know anyone brave enough to say so. Basically if it can be cultivated (or spoiled) then it can be reversed. Probably takes the same period of time.
Secondly, peolpe ask why by EDUCATION. There are not many other things the government has porfolios in. I can't imagine it belongs to the departments of health, environment, foreign affairs or defence. Although we may have to increase our police force if the government just blatantly reduce the benefit suddenly as some of you may have secretly wished. That is if they manage to stay in power at all after that. That is the most naive way that any government will ever follow.
Thirdly, I am not a politician so I don't have plans to implement it. Any party in power can, if they want to.
Cheers.


----------



## The Mint Man (24 July 2007)

toothfairy said:


> May be you should just go & mint more money out of debt if you like.



What the hell are you talking about? please explain that statement.
We (we being Australia) are in a good position at the moment there would be no need to do that..... were not in America you know? we are talking about Australia here


----------



## toothfairy (25 July 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> What the hell are you talking about? please explain that statement.
> We (we being Australia) are in a good position at the moment there would be no need to do that..... were not in America you know? we are talking about Australia here



Mr. Mint,
please don't be offened by my statement, it is an asset to be able to mint money out of debt! I am heavily in debt as well but I am also turning it into equity, as long as your net worth is increasing that's what matters. I don't know of anyone (except my grandmother may be) who is not in debt, because everytime when there is rumour of interest rate increase all of them are not happy. You can tell those who has only real money are those longing for the interest rate to go up.
I think Australia is not far behind US in debt level per capita. US has stopped backing their currency with gold long time ago. At least we can back it up with base metal ( Cu, Fe, Zn, Ni, Pb or whatever is your fancy).  I like Zn.
Cheers.


----------



## sandlion (25 July 2007)

How about on your tax return form you get a tick list..

I choose not to support the following:

1. Overseas Involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan/Absurdistan wherever
2. Politicians pay rises above CPI/Super etc
3. Medicare (e.g I have a health fund)
4. Regional assistance to neighbouring countries who are not aligned with Australia
5. Indigenous Programs
6. Arts
7. Sport
8. Public education (e.g you pay private tuition)
9. Centrelink payments beyond 3 months etc
10. Science/Medical funding
11. ad nauseam

and also have a tick list on those that you choose to support above the base level...maybe percentage scales of your additional support level

What a great way to have a referendum on a number of issues, from those that actually pay tax (as evidenced by filling in a tax return), its all collated by the ATO and fed into the ABS...snapshot what the tax payer objects paying money for....

Note...I am neither for or against any of the examples above, just a collation of topics that crop up at work...but once the support for particular areas of tax dollar usage starts to drop, it might sharpen up a few people


----------



## Julia (25 July 2007)

sandlion said:


> How about on your tax return form you get a tick list..
> 
> I choose not to support the following:
> 
> ...



Interesting idea.  So are you suggesting that the people would have some sort of "contract" with the government whereby if support for a particular issue drops below a given percentage then the government may not pursue that issue?
Although I quite like the idea from a philosophical point of view, practically it would be pretty impossible, and there would be a huge outcry from those representing all the people who don't pay tax (and there are plenty of them:  just think of all the people on welfare and age pensions etc.), i.e. are they to have no say at all in this plan?


----------



## sandlion (25 July 2007)

Gives you a yearly referendum during a 4 yearly term? You get more chance at feedback in Sizzler!

As for the unrepresented, well those that don't pay tax shouldn't represent how it is spent and thats not a hardline point of view, neither is it mine, You can resolve that by having a tax return!...The suggestion is totally unrealistic and harsh in retrospect but it was just a point of view...not necessarily my opinion , devil's advocate territory (don't they all belong to the devil by default?)


----------



## chrisdedavid (25 July 2007)

Julia said:


> I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:
> 
> Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
> A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
> ...




Why can't we have a world were everyone is perfect, is that what you're asking here? As long as our tax keeps them away from stealing and begging I'm pretty happy. 
Picture another country where people like this may not get any money at all... what then?

However, if they are doing something illegal, then ok I hope they get caught.

Just remember the matrix... if this wasn't to occur, then we would have no balance. esok:


----------



## trinity (26 July 2007)

> Picture another country where people like this may not get any money at all... what then?




Any other third world country, you mean?  Well, coming from a third world country, the poor people are not given any money, no medical, no education, they still drink and gamble.  But ... isn't that what is happening in some areas here in Australia?  And .. yet they are given welfare.  Doesn't sound any different to me ...


----------

