# Job prospects in finance and trading



## Nero64 (20 September 2009)

I keep reading about the amount of money traders and hedge fund managers earn. 

In the SMH the other day there was a story about currency traders seeking higher redundancy payments. this would inc 200K base plus bonuses of 40-50k. 

So I went to seek and saw job adds for positions such as risk management trading and arbitrage traders - up to 130K plus bonuses. 

My question is how hard is it to get a foot in the door. Is it a cut throat industry. If You make a mistake are you gone. I have heard off layoffs and 500 people going for 1 job. 

Is the industry now like IT/Computing was after the dot.com crash in 2000/2001. That is salaries coming down and fewer roles to fill but more people looking for work.


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## prawn_86 (20 September 2009)

Nero64 said:


> I have heard off layoffs and 500 people going for 1 job.




JP Morgan had 6000 applicants this year for 8 positions in its grad role. Thats how competitive it is.


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## Largesse (20 September 2009)

propex had 800.
tibra/liquid/optiver all have well over 2000 per intake


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## white_goodman (20 September 2009)

Lloyd: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together? 
Mary: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I mean, we don't really... 
Lloyd: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances? 
Mary: Not good. 
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred? 
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million. 

Lloyd: *So you're telling me there's still a chance... *YEAH!* *


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## mazzatelli (20 September 2009)

Concerning HF positions, it helps to have contacts.


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## white_goodman (20 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> Concerning HF positions, it helps to have contacts.




yeh they dont really advertise and they arent really well known... Infact I couldn't even name one


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## mazzatelli (20 September 2009)

You network while at uni and initial entry level roles. Part of it is luck as well.
Not fair, but thats the way the world works.


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## doctorj (20 September 2009)

Things are very tough in this industry right around the world.  I think the OP's comparison about the dot com crash is a good one.  I don't work in trading, but I imagine it's one of the more cut throat areas of the bank.  You hear plenty of stories of experienced traders making one (quite epic) mistake from no where and being shown the door.

Elsewhere in finance, it's not as bad.  Just don't do anything obviously stupid when there's a lot of money in play and you'll be ok.

Getting a job is hard, but once you're in, it's not that bad...


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

Here are some examples of job adds...

---------------------------------------
*Graduate Trader - Optiver*
Employer: Optiver
Position: Graduate Trader - Optiver
Website: www.optiver.com.au
Added: 02-Mar-2009
Closes: 31-Dec-2009
Commences: Negotiable
Job Type: Full-time
Payrate: $100,000 + bonus
Location: Sydney

Details
Looking to commence your career with an industry-leader at the top of its game?

Does the thought of working with like-minded individuals in an adrenaline-filled, high-performance environment where your success is recognised and rewarded sound like the ideal place to start your career in the financial markets?

Take a look at Optiver.

As a market maker, Optiver is a key player in the global financial markets. Since establishing itself in Amsterdam in 1986, the company has grown to have a trading presence in twenty countries, spread across five continents and is the largest independent arbitrage firm in the Asia Pacific region today. With plans for further expansion, Optiver are looking for bright, motivated graduates to join its trading teams in Sydney, Amsterdam and Chicago.

As a Graduate Trader, you will be trained and mentored by some of the brightest minds in the industry, work with highly advanced systems in a simulated trading environment and be given the support you need to build a career high in satisfaction and success! In return for your engagement, you will be rewarded with a lucrative salary, uncapped bonuses and a unique working environment focused on work-life balance and reward. Optiver’s culture is informal and free from unnecessary bureaucracy, so you can be assured that, regardless of how long you’ve been with the company, your voice will be heard.

Other benefits include a free gym membership, breakfast and lunch catered for daily, annual company trips and extensive training and development.

Interested? You will need to be:

• A penultimate, final year or recently degree qualified in a quantitative discipline Eg. Finance, Commerce, Economics, Maths, Physics, Electrical/Mechanical/Mechatronic Engineering or Actuarial Studies
• A Distinction-average student
• Passionate about the financial markets
• Extremely numerical with a flair for problem solving
• Excellent communication skills
• Decisive, focused and someone who thrives on challenge

If this sounds like the opportunity you’ve been looking for, we should talk.

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*Assistant Trader*
Employer: *Barber Consulting*
Position: *Assistant Trader*
Added: 08-Aug-2009
Closes: 30-Nov-2009
Commences: October 2009 - January 2010
Job Type: Full-time
Payrate: $50k-$75k
Location: Sydney

Details
PLEASE NOTE:
You must be a 2008 or 2009 grad, have a High Distinction average in a Financial Maths, Actuarial, Economics, Finance or similar degree and you will be in the top 5 of your class. Additionally, you will have excelled in probability and be an excellent poker player.

This is truly a unique opportunity to maximise your potential as a trader.

Working for a global trading company, you will begin your career learning the ropes and being trained on every facet of the business. In time you will flourish into a fully fledged trader in your own right.

This is a demanding, high pressure and volatile environment, where you will be expected to push yourself to the limit. In return you will have the chance to exceed all previous expectations.

You will be educated to degree level in a relevant discipline, have a UAI of at least 98, 4 unit maths and a thorough working knowledge of probability computations, as well as possessing first class communication skills.


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

As you can see, the academic standards are quite high... thats before getting though the interview process and the basic maths test (which is not so basic...) I think the optiver test is 70 questions in 8 minutes that are division of and multiplication of 2-4 digit numbers. You can only take the optiver test once - ever.. they will cross reference your name with their database and kick you out if you've done it before.

I did the non official version and got 25 out of the 70 (the minimum number correct required is 60 to get to next stage) . And I'm not idiot at maths.. got over 90 in 4U last year...


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## white_goodman (20 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> As you can see, the academic standards are quite high... thats before getting though the interview process and the basic maths test (which is not so basic...) I think the optiver test is 70 questions in 8 minutes that are division of and multiplication of 2-4 digit numbers. You can only take the optiver test once - ever.. they will cross reference your name with their database and kick you out if you've done it before.
> 
> I did the non official version and got 25 out of the 70 (the minimum number correct required is 60 to get to next stage) . And I'm not idiot at maths.. got over 90 in 4U last year...




yep its very tough to get a start these days, if you do get a foot in gotta make the most of it...

even looking at other things on seeks, majority are distinction average type stuff or prior experience/track record


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## Largesse (20 September 2009)

or you just have to be super awesome like white goodman is


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> yep its very tough to get a start these days, if you do get a foot in gotta make the most of it...
> 
> even looking at other things on seeks, majority are distinction average type stuff or prior experience/track record




Yep... getting that HD average isn't the hard part. Finding a firm that will give you the experience is.. I wonder if  personal trading counts as experience??


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## johnnyg (20 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> I did the non official version and got 25 out of the 70




Got a link Jono to that test?


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## white_goodman (20 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> or you just have to be super awesome like white goodman is


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## Mr J (20 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Details
> PLEASE NOTE:
> You must be a 2008 or 2009 grad, have a High Distinction average in a Financial Maths, Actuarial, Economics, Finance or similar degree and you will be in the top 5 of your class. Additionally, you will have excelled in probability *and be an excellent poker player*.




This is ridiculous. I can't imagine an excellent poker player applying for an entry-level trading position, as that is a substancial pay cut. I assume by 'excellent', they mean 'profitable'. I'm surpised they even threw it in - is it a joke or are they serious?



jono1887 said:


> Yep... getting that HD average isn't the hard part. Finding a firm that will give you the experience is.. I wonder if  personal trading counts as experience??




I imagine a trader with a great record will not have any trouble finding a position. I'm sure hedge funds etc would be open to it, although I'm going to guess that larger organisations prefer to groom their traders from the start, to be like a cog in the machine. Even if that is true, I'm sure there are exceptions anyway.


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## Gerkin (20 September 2009)

Realistically, Are you becoming traders to make heaps of dollars, or is it a status symbol thing?


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## beerwm (20 September 2009)

Gerkin said:


> Realistically, Are you becoming traders to make heaps of dollars, or is it a status symbol thing?




I'm doing it for the ladies.


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Got a link Jono to that test?




http://www.dennisfleurbaaij.com/mathtest.php

Its actually 80 questions in 8 minutes. You have 6 seconds per questions!

48) 3:14 - 6:4 = 
49) 86.4374 - 33.8868 =
50) 14 - 30 = 
51) 55.7161 + 71.0029 = 
53) 26 * 88 = 
54) 527 / 31 = 
55) 28.9442 + 61.3963 = 
56) 39.7632 + 94.1182 = 
57) 13:5 - 15:14 =

Here as an example of some of the questions...

The website randomly generates a set of different every time you load it...


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## Gerkin (20 September 2009)

beerwm said:


> I'm doing it for the ladies.




The divorce settlement will be good for her


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## Mr J (20 September 2009)

They have 14 -30...at least it gives me an extra 5 seconds to answer the other 79 questions :.



Gerkin said:


> Realistically, Are you becoming traders to make heaps of dollars, or is it a status symbol thing?




Neither. Money is certainly part of it, but the main reason is the personal freedom. I'm an independent retail trader, and will probably always be so.


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Neither. Money is certainly part of it, but the main reason is the personal freedom. I'm an independent retail trader, and will probably always be so.




What does it mean to be an independent retail trader? do you work for a firm or for for yourself??


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## Gerkin (20 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> They have 14 -30...at least it gives me an extra 5 seconds to answer the other 79 questions :.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither. Money is certainly part of it, but the main reason is the personal freedom. I'm an independent retail trader, and will probably always be so.




You have contradicted yourself. 

You have said neither, yet you admit your after the money.

Also you want personal freedom? How is breathing, living, and working trading personal freedom?


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## jono1887 (20 September 2009)

Gerkin said:


> Also you want personal freedom? How is breathing, living, and working trading personal freedom?




Well if its something you enjoy.. i guess you could call it freedom. And I guess if your trading from home, that would be fairly free..


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## Mr J (20 September 2009)

Gerkin said:


> You have contradicted yourself.
> 
> You have said neither, yet you admit your after the money.
> 
> Also you want personal freedom? How is breathing, living, and working trading personal freedom?




I haven't contradicted myself, you just made an assumption. I'm not in this for the status or to get rich. How is it personal freedom? It's not complete freedom, but it's far more substancial than most occupations out there. Living and breathing trading? Completely unnecessary. It doesn't have to be a 10 hour a day job to be done well.


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## white_goodman (20 September 2009)

Gerkin said:


> You have contradicted yourself.
> 
> You have said neither, yet you admit your after the money.
> 
> Also you want personal freedom? How is breathing, living, and working trading personal freedom?




if thats your hobby and what you find fun, isnt that a freedom of sorts?


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## Largesse (20 September 2009)

imma flex on you


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## Hyperion (21 September 2009)

Does anyone know how much emphasis these proprietary trading firms (e.g. propex, optiver, tibra, liquid capital) place upon a university degree?

Is it possible to get in without a uni degree?

Does having a double degree in say commerce/law help?

And out of interest, how many people here are currently at uni?

Also, it seems there is more interest in these proprietary trading firms than the banks...  Why don't people want to work for goldman sachs, ubs etc?


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## doctorj (21 September 2009)

Hyperion said:


> Does anyone know how much emphasis these proprietary trading firms (e.g. propex, optiver, tibra, liquid capital) place upon a university degree?



Probably a lot.


Hyperion said:


> Is it possible to get in without a uni degree?



Yes.  The second most senior person in FIG where I work doesn't have a degree.


Hyperion said:


> Does having a double degree in say commerce/law help?



I know Mac Bank like it, I assume many others do too.


Hyperion said:


> Also, it seems there is more interest in these proprietary trading firms than the banks...  Why don't people want to work for goldman sachs, ubs etc?



No idea why.  They'd be a better career move.  Maybe it's because they're not that prominent in Aus.


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## mazzatelli (21 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> I imagine a trader with a great record will not have any trouble finding a position. I'm sure hedge funds etc would be open to it, although I'm going to guess that larger organisations prefer to groom their traders from the start, to be like a cog in the machine. Even if that is true, I'm sure there are exceptions anyway.




Yes, there is a preference by HF's for those who trade their own account and demonstrate internal drive and willingness to learn. 
Problem, is that most candidates strut in and act as if they know everything.

For sell side trading, there is a stronger preference to groom grads.


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## skyQuake (21 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> I did the non official version and got 25 out of the 70 (the minimum number correct required is 60 to get to next stage) . And I'm not idiot at maths.. got over 90 in 4U last year...




Used to be 55 a while ago... Looks like they're upping the ante.



jono1887 said:


> http://www.dennisfleurbaaij.com/mathtest.php
> 
> Its actually 80 questions in 8 minutes. You have 6 seconds per questions!
> 
> ...




Not that hard on the addition questions, but looks about right. Also multiplication is usually 2 digit x 2digit under 30s.



Hyperion said:


> Does anyone know how much emphasis these proprietary trading firms (e.g. propex, optiver, tibra, liquid capital) place upon a university degree?




Propex - Low
The other MMs - Lots



> Is it possible to get in without a uni degree?
> 
> Does having a double degree in say commerce/law help?
> 
> ...




No prop desks in Aus. Different in what you do. Also those IBs have limited presence in Aus and thus are even harder to get in to.



mazzatelli said:


> Yes, there is a preference by HF's for those who trade their own account and demonstrate internal drive and willingness to learn.
> Problem, is that most candidates strut in and act as if they know everything.
> 
> For sell side trading, there is a stronger preference to groom grads.




lol, agree so much.


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## Timmy (21 September 2009)

If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.


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## Mr J (21 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> What does it mean to be an independent retail trader? do you work for a firm or for for yourself??




Working for myself. I don't have much choice, but trading for myself has always been my goal anyway. If I am able to build a track record attractive enough for firms to be interested, then trading my own account will already be lucrative, and I could just seek additional capital rather than a job.


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## Dowdy (21 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Here are some examples of job adds...
> 
> *Assistant Trader*
> Employer: *Barber Consulting*
> ...






I think i'm prefect for the job - i'm an excelent poker player and i'm a genius in probability - for example, the odds of me getting the job are 0%


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## jono1887 (21 September 2009)

Dowdy said:


> I think i'm prefect for the job - i'm an excelent poker player and i'm a genius in probability - for example, the odds of me getting the job are 0%




With those kind of probability skills you're guaranteed to get the job!



Timmy said:


> If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.




How do you propose to do this? :



Hyperion said:


> Does anyone know how much emphasis these proprietary trading firms (e.g. propex, optiver, tibra, liquid capital) place upon a university degree?
> 
> Is it possible to get in without a uni degree?
> 
> ...




Most of the jobs would probably require a uni degree unless you are incredibly mathematically brilliant...


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## white_goodman (21 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Most of the jobs would probably require a uni degree unless you are incredibly mathematically brilliant...




in which case you would have a uni degree... I am yet to meet a maths genius that goes to TAFE


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## jono1887 (21 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> in which case you would have a uni degree... I am yet to meet a maths genius that goes to TAFE




True, hence it would be quite difficult getting a job at a trading firm without a uni degree... considering their standards are HD, how would you go about proving that you can meet those standards without a degree?



skyQuake said:


> Used to be 55 a while ago... Looks like they're upping the ante.
> 
> Not that hard on the addition questions, but looks about right. Also multiplication is usually 2 digit x 2digit under 30s.




I think its still 55 out of 80.. I thought it was out of 70 before. Have you tried the test before?


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## Largesse (21 September 2009)

The day you finally realise its not just about raw maths scores and HD's is the day when you might actually have a chance at getting a job in trading.


As it stands, you are a long way off.


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## jono1887 (21 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> The day you finally realise its not just about raw maths scores and HD's is the day when you might actually have a chance at getting a job in trading.
> 
> 
> As it stands, you are a long way off.




obviously its more than this. but to even get yourself recognised or an interview for that matter... you do need these...


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## Timmy (21 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> The day you finally realise its not just about raw maths scores and HD's is the day when you might actually have a chance at getting a job in trading.
> 
> 
> As it stands, you are a long way off.




Yep.


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## mazzatelli (21 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> obviously its more than this. but to even get yourself recognised or an interview for that matter... you do need these...




What type of trading are you actually after?
A few guys here sound like they want buy side roles, but are all gearing up for market maker tests/interviews.


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## jono1887 (21 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> What type of trading are you actually after?
> A few guys here sound like they want buy side roles, but are all gearing up for market maker tests/interviews.




I wouldnt really mind.. anything from optiver to ubs to commonwealth... 
Although it would be nice to get a job at a market maker firm. However it seems more and more unlikely each day.. im in a med degree, doubt that they'd be looking for doctors


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## skyQuake (22 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> I wouldnt really mind.. anything from optiver to ubs to commonwealth...
> Although it would be nice to get a job at a market maker firm. However it seems more and more unlikely each day.. im in a med degree, doubt that they'd be looking for doctors




Well you need to know how to market yourself differently to each firm. They're looking for very different things. As to the degree, its only a hinderance to UBS probably.


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## white_goodman (22 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> I wouldnt really mind.. anything from optiver to ubs to commonwealth...
> Although it would be nice to get a job at a market maker firm. However it seems more and more unlikely each day.. im in a med degree, doubt that they'd be looking for doctors




first question they will ask is "why the hell did you choose a med degree if you wanna be in finance" , I got asked the same thing and my course is still semi related


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## Largesse (22 September 2009)

assuming you have good communication skills and good presentation, your med degree would/could actually help you get a job at UBS (& co).... as a banker or management consultant.

I know of two people who finished med degrees only to decide they didnt like it, and transfered straight into associate programs with global different IB's here in AUS.
Big IB's are after a certain type of person, not necessarily a certain discipline


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## Largesse (22 September 2009)

P.S white goodman is a sceno


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## Largesse (22 September 2009)

To Jono1887:

The fact that you are saying that you wouldnt care if you went to Optiver (market maker) or UBS/Commonwealth (most likely execution) suggests you dont actually have a clue what you want to do as these are very different roles. 

There are so many different roles with in trading, i know this and i dont even work in trading, yet.


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## white_goodman (22 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> P.S white goodman is a sceno




your best mate....


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## Gillie (22 September 2009)

mmmnnnn... interesting thread...

Took me 18 months to get a job in trading and i have the double degree and postgrad quals as well.

On top of that you still need your RG 146, ADA 1 & 2, CFD, Futures, etc...

Depending on what your going to trade in of course... 

We still have people here that don't have any uni degrees and they still trade.


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## vincent191 (22 September 2009)

I know a guy who did his PhD in Mongolian Folk Music. He is now a management consultant for a very large & prestigious firm.  When I expressed bewildment when we met years later he told me they hired him for his ability to think and not what it said on his degrees. Well, I'll be buggered.


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## white_goodman (22 September 2009)

Gillie said:


> mmmnnnn... interesting thread...
> 
> Took me 18 months to get a job in trading and i have the double degree and postgrad quals as well.
> 
> ...




where exactly is 'here'?


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## jono1887 (22 September 2009)

vincent191 said:


> I know a guy who did his PhD in Mongolian Folk Music. He is now a management consultant for a very large & prestigious firm.  When I expressed bewildment when we met years later he told me they hired him for his ability to think and not what it said on his degrees. Well, I'll be buggered.




Just because his PhD was in mongolian folk.. doesnt mean his undergrad was not business or mathematical related.


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## Hyperion (22 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> assuming you have good communication skills and good presentation, your med degree would/could actually help you get a job at UBS (& co).... as a banker or management consultant.
> 
> I know of two people who finished med degrees only to decide they didnt like it, and transfered straight into associate programs with global different IB's here in AUS.
> Big IB's are after a certain type of person, not necessarily a certain discipline




afaik, none of the global ibs have formal 'associate programs' in australia?
whilst they are offered in pretty much every other country, there are only 'analyst programs' offered in Australia...?


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## matty2.0 (22 September 2009)

very tough, esp now. 
you look at all the successes, but there are many hedge funds that have failed or lost money. normal distribution curve is about right ... maybe a little skew to the right ... *maybe*. 
not as glamorous as you think. even at an entry level role you'll be doing donkey work. experience and seasoning through cycles is important in this business.

best to find an entry level role in financial markets somewhere for a few years, then work from there.


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## beerwm (22 September 2009)

whats this huge incentive to get an entry role job?

- do these insitutions hold some kind of market secrets that arent available on this forum?


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## gooner (22 September 2009)

Largesse said:


> To Jono1887:
> 
> The fact that you are saying that you wouldnt care if you went to Optiver (market maker) or UBS/Commonwealth (most likely execution) suggests you dont actually have a clue what you want to do as these are very different roles.
> 
> There are so many different roles with in trading, i know this and i dont even work in trading, yet.




CBA - execution yes for equities, though thought they just bought an institutional equities business.

But for interest rates, foreign exchange etc, the major banks have huge trading businesses


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## doctorj (22 September 2009)

If anyone here works in private equity in Australia - particularly with a focus on emerging markets and/or non-bank financial institutions - I'd appreciate a pm...


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## Gillie (29 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> where exactly is 'here'?




"Here" is where I work and no I'm not saying the name of the firm.


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## Timmy (29 September 2009)

Gillie said:


> "Here" is where I work and no I'm not saying the name of the firm.




Gillie, its OK to work at Goldman's ... really, it is


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## doctorj (29 September 2009)

Timmy said:


> Gillie, its OK to work at Goldman's ... really, it is



I'd much rather by part of the great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money than the alternative


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## nellyei (29 September 2009)

long time lurker lol

i heard from ANU grads who went to merryl lynch, ubs and macquarie bank none had interviews from goldman.

the myth is goldman never interviews nor hires anu grads.

why is that?


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## white_goodman (29 September 2009)

nellyei said:


> long time lurker lol
> 
> i heard from ANU grads who went to merryl lynch, ubs and macquarie bank none had interviews from goldman.
> 
> ...




cause its not Sydney Uni

(I go to UTS btw, so im not a douchebag)


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## jono1887 (29 September 2009)

white_goodman said:


> cause its not Sydney Uni
> 
> (I go to UTS btw, so im not a douchebag)




You're White Goodman... 'no one makes you bleed your own blood!!' :

Of coarse you're a douche


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## white_goodman (29 September 2009)

jono1887 said:


> You're White Goodman... 'no one makes you bleed your own blood!!' :
> 
> Of coarse you're a douche




Its me taking the bull by the horns, its a metaphor for business

I get it

But that actually happened though


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## Hyperion (30 September 2009)

Does anyone here actually work for a bulge bracket IB?

In sales/trading or IB?


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