# Esuperfund SMSF brokers



## auric

Any one using a SMSF Administrator who does not charge extra
for more than 15 transactions and is reasonable priced

Have changed to Esuperfunds but you can only use Etrade and Commsec
to trade, since IB Brokers have hit the market
would like to use them as my preferred broker,
need a few more ESuperfund clients to push the issue with
them to allow IB brokers which would be better as a one stop shop



http://www.esuperfund.com.au


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## yonnie

*Re: Brokerage/platforms terrible in Oz*



auric said:


> Any one using a SMSF Administrator who does not charge extra
> for more than 15 transactions and is reasonable priced
> 
> Have changed to Esuperfunds but you can only use Etrade and Commsec
> to trade, since IB Brokers have hit the market
> would like to use them as my preferred broker,
> need a few more ESuperfund clients to push the issue with
> them to allow IB brokers which would be better as a one stop shop




hi Auric,

am not a client of Esuper, `cos I dont want to join Etrade.
however I`m really interested if Esuper would join up with IB, although ANZ would be out of the picture as IB got all the clients money in a pooled account.
why dont you start a new thread and ask people to sign a petition or whatever?


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## auric

*Re: Brokerage/platforms terrible in Oz*

yonnie

do not think we need a petition
with the number of smsf being formed eventually
some one will break into the market to offer
a solution
esuperfund is the best so far and i have nothing against them,they offer a good service  just need some better preferred brokers;  IB:


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

do you know that Etrade actually promotes SuperEasy, although this outfit is a lot more expensive?

maybe not a petition, but how would the admin industry know about your problem if you dont bring it to their attention?

just wait 5 years and it might happen?


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

just sent an email to Esuperfund explaining that IB is a multi billion $ broker from the US and is offering their services now in Oz. Far cheaper than Comsec at 0.8% of trade value with a minimum of $6 against Comsec`s $ 19.95. Seems like there is a lot of interest among traders on this site to join up with IB and wonder if they would strike a deal with IB to offer Esuperfund`s accountancy for IB`s clients.

So if everybody could send Esuperfund an email that would be great


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## auric

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

lets hope it hits the right spot have sent my email and have rang them

cheers


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



auric said:


> lets hope it hits the right spot have sent my email and have rang them
> cheers





good on ya, if we all put the effort in, it might just happen.
thanks


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## CFD

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Just picked up on Esuperfunds from this thread.

I gather they make their money from trailing commissions? 
Also that the $599- pa is subject to this?
What do they charge otherwise, ie funds in property, term deposit or even Managed Funds where they do not get the commission?

Also are users happy with the set up?


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

cfd,

esuper is an accountancy site that does your trading administration in a SMSF very cheaply.

They will set up your SMSF for you, do all your administration no matter how many trades you have done and also do the auditing.
All this for the pricely sum of $ 599.

The only drawback for me is that they only do Comsec and IGmarket clients and I dont want to trade there.

But if they would do IB clients, I would be over at Esuperfund in a flash

wonder why Esuperfund dont have a deal with all brokers in Oz, now that would expand their business.


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## CFD

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



yonnie said:


> cfd,
> ~~
> The only drawback for me is that they only do Comsec and IGmarket clients and I dont want to trade there.
> ~~




So one of the questions I'm asking, is how much do they charge for administration etc. if you trade elsewhere, which anyone with an SMSF is entitled to do?


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CFD said:


> So one of the questions I'm asking, is how much do they charge for administration etc. if you trade elsewhere, which anyone with an SMSF is entitled to do?




Esuperfund dont do any other brokers than Comsec and IGMarkets
well maybe Etrade


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## SharonK

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I too am a happy ESuperfund customer, although after initially setting up with ETrade & ANZ I'm in the process of changing to Comsec & Macquarie Banking, as I didn't like how you had to leave funds in your ETrade settlement account in order to put in a trade which may or maynot go through.

They restrict what accounts you use to keep things simple so that they can keep their fees so low.  Also noted that they make a little extra out of the brokerage fee and they also register you for GST, complete all the required paperwork and keep any GST refunds up to a certain value (can't remember off the top of my head what the figure was) I don't have a problem with them doing that, as I probably wouldn't have registered for GST at all and this helps them keep their fees substantially lower than anyone else.

I'm actually an accountant by background and was going to do all the compliance work myself, although I would of had to pay for the accounts to be audited, buy special software, it would be cheaper and less hassle for me just to get ESuperfund to do the compliance work for me.

This is my first year with ESuper so will keep a close eye on their work, but so far all seems good.
cheers
Sharon


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

hi Sharon,

I am not a customer of Esuperfund, because I dont want to trade through Comsec/Etrade/IGMarkets.

but I would love to get rid of the adminstration of 500+ trades a year.

do you trade that much that Esuperfund manages to register you for GST? I thought that was only if you are in the business of share trading.

that Esuperfund keeps the gst is not clearly on their website.....where can I find that?

thank you


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## SharonK

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Gidday yonnie,

Well it took me a while to find it, was thinking I must of imagined it, but did find it in the end.  It actually on the 3rd page of their Client Service Statement I've cut and paste it below.  I do not do alot of trading and wasn't even asked the question but I know they have registered my SMSF for GST.  At the time I just thought that I didn't really care as my GST would be minimal and I suppose that helps them keep their fees so low.  However, I've thought about it some more and have a few concerns about it and will be making some more enquiries, with the ATO & ESuper.  I would think that ESuper would have to invoice my superfund for the amount of GST claimed and they cannot just take money that is owed to the superfund.  Anyway see what I can find out and will post it later.
cheers
Sharon




Registration for GST
When you establish a SMSF with ESUPERFUND your Fund will be registered for GST. This means that your SMSF will be
required to lodge additional documentation with the ATO each year attended to by our office. By registering for GST your Fund will
be entitled to claim the GST paid on Fund costs. No payment is required to be made by your SMSF to ESUPERFUND for attending
to the Funds GST obligations. This is because ESUPERFUND is paid from the GST refund received by your Fund. Where the
SMSF GST refund exceeds $299 we pay the excess into your SMSF Bank Account


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## yonnie

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

wow,  Sharon, I find that so dodgy and underhanded.

it might be still value for money, but they should clearly state on their website that there is more to it than a fee of $599 a year and not in the small print only.

might even be cause for a consumer complaint.

wonder how they get around the business issue: you are clearly not a trader and should not be entitled to the GST, but you have to add GST to the purchase price of your position for profit/loss purposes.
With Esuperfund taking the Gst your profits will be higher/your losses lower.


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## SharonK

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Got to admit it is a bit underhanded, I suppose initially I was prepared to over look it as the fees were so cheap, also with my accounting background I am reasonably confident of picking up any errors made in the accounts so felt it was worth giving them a go.

I really didn't give it all enough thought really as it was all a rush to get set up pre 30/6/07, now that things have settled I will be asking more questions as it really seems quite unethical for them to do this.

My understanding of the GST was that if your turnover is under the limit which is now $75000 you do not have to register for GST but if you choose to you can.

Whether I was a trader or an investor would effect how my turnover was calculated for GST purposes not whether or not I could register for GST.

Hope this makes sense.

 I have phoned ESuper & left a message (this is one area that can be annoying they can be difficuilt to contact at times)

As I am not a trader the overall effect will be nil.

At the end of it whatever ESuper get back in GST (which I wouldn't of claimed as I wouldn't of registered for gst) this will end up being a cost to my smsf as effectively that amount has been paid to ESuper for preparation of BAS.  Whether this is all legitimate and can be done this way I'm not sure and will try and find out.

Just got cut off after being on hold to the ATO for 15 min's will try again!!
sharon


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## SharonK

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Ok ESuperfund have got back to me on the GST issue and have satisfied my issues with it.  They basically do provide a statement at the end of the year showing GST transactions & refunds which are banked by ESuper who provide an invoice for charges relating to GST returns prepared equal to the value of the GST refunds (unless they exceed the $299 per qtr)

They are quite happy to let you do your own GST return if you wish and seem very approachable in regards to assisting on an individual basis with any issues you may have.

Also mentioned re using IB brokers and they have indicated that if there is a call for it they would talk to them to see if they can come up with an agreeable arangement.  Part of keeping the fees low with Esuper is that they can get live data feeds from the broker & bank to cut down on the work involvled.  They also make some money out of the brokerage fees, with IB being so cheap there maybe no room for ESuper to make money out of it.  

For me the cheap compliance costs of using ESuperfund of $599 per year more than outweighs any disadvantages of being tied to either ETrade or Comsec.

cheers
Sharon


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## hangseng

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



SharonK said:


> Ok ESuperfund have got back to me on the GST issue and have satisfied my issues with it.  They basically do provide a statement at the end of the year showing GST transactions & refunds which are banked by ESuper who provide an invoice for charges relating to GST returns prepared equal to the value of the GST refunds (unless they exceed the $299 per qtr)
> 
> They are quite happy to let you do your own GST return if you wish and seem very approachable in regards to assisting on an individual basis with any issues you may have.
> 
> Also mentioned re using IB brokers and they have indicated that if there is a call for it they would talk to them to see if they can come up with an agreeable arangement.  Part of keeping the fees low with Esuper is that they can get live data feeds from the broker & bank to cut down on the work involvled.  They also make some money out of the brokerage fees, with IB being so cheap there maybe no room for ESuper to make money out of it.
> 
> For me the cheap compliance costs of using ESuperfund of $599 per year more than outweighs any disadvantages of being tied to either ETrade or Comsec.
> 
> cheers
> Sharon





Great reading Sharon, good work.

I have been looking at SMSF for 2 years now and ESUPERFUND just kept jumping out at me as a very good option. I have just received my documents to sign and return and can't wait to have this operable.

I had a long chat to them and have read just about every review I could. Just seem logical to go with it, even my accountant relunctantly agreed it is a great option. 

I bet my super fund IOOF won't be happy chappies though.

One of the queries I had was the use of Comsec. Not my preferred choice for trading but for one off investment transactions I saw no problem. They said I can use who I want but I would have to provide all trading information to them regularly in a format they want. Much easier just to use Comsec basic account for super and use live feed data separately as I do now with Etrade Pro. 

Also looking at trialling Clime's Stockval this year as an additional investment selection tool. Anyone use this? With the amounts I will be investing and trading the expense is minimal to gain access to it.

Thanks to all the contributors here, great information.


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## sandgroper3

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



SharonK said:


> At the end of it whatever ESuper get back in GST (which I wouldn't of claimed as I wouldn't of registered for gst) this will end up being a cost to my smsf as effectively that amount has been paid to ESuper for preparation of BAS.  Whether this is all legitimate and can be done this way I'm not sure and will try and find out.
> 
> sharon




From an accounting point of view, treating Esuperfund's invoice for GST as an expense does not accurately record the cost basis for the securities purchased whilst the $299 limit has not been reached.

As pointed out in the documentation associated with ManageInvest,

"The cost base of an asset, also known as its capitalised cost, is equal to the amount paid for the asset, including any capitalised expenses associated with the purchase and delivery (such as stamp duty, legal fees or brokerage), less any amounts that have been recovered."

Sandgroper3


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## sinic

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Getting GST back for a super fund has nothing to with being a "trader" or not.  You can claim back 75% of the GST component of brokerage - you just have to register for GST and do the BAS stuff each quarter.  There is a tax ruling about this on the ATO web site.  BTW you cannot claim the GST from the auditing component.


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## sinic

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

PS 

The reference is ATO publication:
"Guide to ABN, GST and PAYG for the Superannuation Industry" page 27


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## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				hangseng; said:
			
		

> Great reading Sharon, good work.
> They said I can use who I want but I would have to provide all trading information to them regularly in a format they want. Much easier just to use Comsec basic account for super and use live feed data separately as I do now with Etrade Pro.




Your comment about using Etrade and supplying a data feed to Esuperfund - did you get this is writing, and did they state how long they would honour it for?

I had a deal with them and recently they changed their rules  because I would not use their bank account - I'm a Commsec client. Now, their 'bank account' is actually a Management Cash Trust with a 1.1% annual fee. I suspect that many SMSF hold large cash balances for extended periods and that this is the deal breaker as it probably gives esuperfund more income than the brokerage kickbacks.

I have found that they  are slow in preparation of accounts, leave many things to the last moment, and now I fear I have lost any trust I had.

I know I will pay a little more with another provider, but I refuse point blank to be told which bank account I have to have and which broker to use. These days with the right authority your administrator can have electronic feeds from all of the big players so it is not an efficiency issue as suggested by esuperfund. 

The last point is regarding cash trusts - these trusts invest in various cash like instruments and several in the US have had to be bailed out wit ha few actually allowing the fund to 'break the buck' e.g. $1 on deposit has lost money and is now worth less than $1. I'm just not sure that small investors really understand this  -like Opes Prime, all the shouting will happen afterwards when everyone says they thought it was a standard bank account for their Superfund.

PS I don't expect anything for nothing and have been happy the last couple of years paying additional fees every month as I didn't switch to the preferred bank account. Clearly not enough!


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## hangseng

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> Your comment about using Etrade and supplying a data feed to Esuperfund - did you get this is writing, and did they state how long they would honour it for?
> 
> I had a deal with them and recently they changed their rules  because I would not use their bank account - I'm a Commsec client. Now, their 'bank account' is actually a Management Cash Trust with a 1.1% annual fee. I suspect that many SMSF hold large cash balances for extended periods and that this is the deal breaker as it probably gives esuperfund more income than the brokerage kickbacks.
> 
> I have found that they  are slow in preparation of accounts, leave many things to the last moment, and now I fear I have lost any trust I had.
> 
> I know I will pay a little more with another provider, but I refuse point blank to be told which bank account I have to have and which broker to use. These days with the right authority your administrator can have electronic feeds from all of the big players so it is not an efficiency issue as suggested by esuperfund.
> 
> The last point is regarding cash trusts - these trusts invest in various cash like instruments and several in the US have had to be bailed out wit ha few actually allowing the fund to 'break the buck' e.g. $1 on deposit has lost money and is now worth less than $1. I'm just not sure that small investors really understand this  -like Opes Prime, all the shouting will happen afterwards when everyone says they thought it was a standard bank account for their Superfund.
> 
> PS I don't expect anything for nothing and have been happy the last couple of years paying additional fees every month as I didn't switch to the preferred bank account. Clearly not enough!




I use Esuperfund and I have had no problem apart from being a little slow to respond. I use Commsec and works a treat compared to Etrade. They stated I could use whoever I wanted to trade but I will need to provide all records in simple form, much easier to just use Commsec. I don't trade CFD's so that is of no concern.

As for cash I have a small holding in the CMT with Macquarie to cover expenses and a larger holding in high interest bearing deposit in a bank with no fees. I have spoken to Esuperfund about this and all I have to do is provide the statement when required for tax purposes. Obviously they would like me to keep all cash in the CMT to receive a benefit, but it is my money and I am the trustee. They cannot and won't tell me or anyone else where you MUST place your funds. I confirmed all of this to ensure flexibility BEFORE I set this up. 

If they ever tried to pressure me I would simply report them to the SMSF area at the ATO and swap to my accountant. I just don't believe they would be so dumb to do so.

It is a cheap way to setup and manage a compliant fund. I paid no setup fees whatsoever, that alone is a great saving. I am also loving watching my super grow without exorbitant monthly fund management fees.

I am tracking my old managed fund compared to mine and I am now leaving them in my wake. If I maintain what I am achieving, I will be on the horizon sailing away into the sunset before they even get away from the boat pen. Managed funds are restrictive, high fee draining sumps.

Esuperfund made this process very simple and seamless. Full points so far.


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## numbercruncher

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Im with esuperfund and have had no problems.

I am however in the process of setting up an account with commsec to settle trades through as settling through Macquarie is 29.95 as opposed to 19.95 with a commsec account.


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## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> Your comment about using Etrade and supplying a data feed to Esuperfund - did you get this is writing, and did they state how long they would honour it for?
> 
> I had a deal with them and recently they changed their rules  because I would not use their bank account - I'm a Commsec client. Now, their 'bank account' is actually a Management Cash Trust with a 1.1% annual fee. I suspect that many SMSF hold large cash balances for extended periods and that this is the deal breaker as it probably gives esuperfund more income than the brokerage kickbacks.
> (snip)




You've lost me a bit there.  The CMT is currently returning 6.57% avg after fees.  Yes, it is easy enough (and allowable with esuperfund) to get a better rate but its convenient to just use the CMT if the money is not going to be there too long.  Many people use this CMT as direct retail customers.  

I tend to the view that esuperfund could not possibly perform their function for $599 without some other offsetting return.  If they get a commission from the CMT and a payment for lodging BAS returns - neither of which I would receive otherwise anyway - and that enables them to perform their service for me, that's all to the good. 

Cheers .......... Alan


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## hangseng

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> You've lost me a bit there.  The CMT is currently returning 6.57% avg after fees.  Yes, it is easy enough (and allowable with esuperfund) to get a better rate but its convenient to just use the CMT if the money is not going to be there too long.  Many people use this CMT as direct retail customers.
> 
> I tend to the view that esuperfund could not possibly perform their function for $599 without some other offsetting return.  If they get a commission from the CMT and a payment for lodging BAS returns - neither of which I would receive otherwise anyway - and that enables them to perform their service for me, that's all to the good.
> 
> Cheers .......... Alan




Exactly Alan, I knew all along they would be getting commissions. So what, it ensures my fees remain low, a simple win win arrangement.


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## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



numbercruncher said:


> Im with esuperfund and have had no problems.
> 
> I am however in the process of setting up an account with commsec to settle trades through as settling through Macquarie is 29.95 as opposed to 19.95 with a commsec account.





How do you do this?  (the above)

As I understand it, they charge the $30 commission on the SMSF accounts, unlike the regular commsec account, which if u have a preferred bank account attached is $20 per trade.

I thought this is how they make some profit. ( i would prefer $20 tho)

As for trading thru another broker, I am not sure they would allow that if u did lots of trades,( I think this is spelled out in their website).

 I believe the reason they keep their audit cost low, is that they have integrated auditing software with Commsec ,Macquarie, and IG.

If they had to manually audit more than a few trades, that would mean they would cost the same as a regular accountant ie $1500-3000.

You can use term deposits or other high interest accounts for excess cash

I would be surprised if they establish agreements with any really low cost brokers, because they would be cutting their profit margin.

I seem to recall reading somewhere in the fine print that Commsec and Macquarie are actually shareholders in the company that runs Esuperfund?

tony


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## Markcoinoz

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Interesting reading for those who are in e-superfund.

I only have two accounts.

My v2 Plus Super account with ANZ and Commsec for trading.

It appears to work for me except that there is a bit of a time lag between accounts.

As well, i find the Commsec trading account a bit confusing in regard to cleared funds.  Also have a separate NAB trading account not linked to my Super Fund.

I use the NAB Trading Platform rather than rely on Commsec as i am probably more used to using NAB.

So far i am reasonably happy with e-superfund.

As long as i can build up my Superfund in an efficient and timely manner i don't really care how much commissions they are getting as long as i am not being ripped off.

Cheers markcoinoz


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## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				hangseng; said:
			
		

> ..*They stated I could use whoever I wanted to trade but I will need to provide all records in simple form*, much easier to just use Commsec.
> As for cash I have a small holding in the CMT with Macquarie to cover expenses and a *larger holding in high interest bearing deposit in a bank with no fees. I have spoken to Esuperfund about this and all I have to do is provide the statement when required for tax purposes*. Obviously they would like me to keep all cash in the CMT to receive a benefit, but it is my money and I am the trustee. *They cannot and won't tell me or anyone else where you MUST place your funds. I confirmed all of this to ensure flexibility BEFORE I set this up. *
> 
> *If they ever tried to pressure me I would simply report them to the SMSF area at the ATO and swap to my accountant. I just don't believe they would be so dumb to do so.*




Letter from Esuperfund - March 2008
......
"As you are aware as pert of our services we now *require clients to use specific brokers and banking accounts in order to simplify the annual compliance preparation process*. Documentation has been previously forwarded to you in relation to these changes and the possibility of converting to our new compliance system including changing brokers and banking arrangements where necessary. *You have previously indicated that your preference is that your fund does not change its existing arrangements. Given this, we advise that we are now unable to allocate appropriate staffing resources to adequately service your fund's taxation requirements*. Rather than allow our level of service to you to deteriorate, we have deemed it necessary to transfer your Fund's taxation requirements to another taxation agent, Business Concepts Group.

....
*Esuperfund has passed on your fund's taxation files to Business Concepts Group ..... *Importantly by transferring all our clients' affairs to one taxation agent, Esuperfund will be available to answer any issues that arise as part of the transaction process.
As you are aware you have been paying your fees monthly to Esuperfund. Your monthly payment to Esuperfund has ceased effective DD MMM *2007.*
To simplify the account payment process your fees will no longer be debited monthly, but will be debited annually once per year. *the first annual payment will be made on April 15, 2008* and will relate to payment of your Funds 2008 (/09) financial year accounting and taxation compliance obligations."

-------------------
Please note the following aspects:-

Commsec is, and has always been the broker.
MacBank CMT is not used and never has been.
A major big 4 bank is used and will supply electronic data feed.
The letter dated 27th March, received in April states that the monthly fees were stopped in late 2007 e.g. this decision was made last year, but first advice me me was April 2008!
The transfer was not discussed in any shape or form and is an arbitrary decision by Esuperfund.
The payment system has been changed without any consultation.
The first annual payment was to be within 2 weeks of receiving the letter!
The records have been transferred to another agent without any consultation.
I have always paid extra monthly fees due to non use of macbank and have never objected to these fees.
I hold less than 15 different stocks plus a consolidated wrap account holding managed wholesale funds (e.g. no commission to any adviser). This is a simple to manage account and any decent software with the direct data feeds should mange this with no manual intervention. The auditor checks the numbers, but little accounts work to do. So please don't think that a complex account is involved. 
I'm also not happy about being charged $200 for a new trust deed AFTER the monthly debites were stopped e.g. Esuperfund debited $200 for  a trust deed after deciding to transfer my account. This Stinks.

We all have choices, and I have no issue with any business being as profitable as possible in whatever way they can, as long as it is open, honest and trustworthy. My SMSF is too valuable an asset to me to be told who I bank my cash holdings with.

What happens is some unscrupulous administrator sets up this sort of operation and then transfers the stock holdings into something like Opes and the cash element into something like Lehmans (Manly council and many others lost a packet on these 'money market' accounts).

Like Opes, Lehmans, and all the high interest players who were backing the property game that have gone bust over the past couple of years people only look at the small print after the event. Buyer beware.


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## peter2

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

As a trustee of a SMSF and an Esuperfund client that notice is a concern.


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## hangseng

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hmmmmmmmmm...interesting.

Firstly how can they debit the fund without the authority of the Trustee?

Secondly they have no access to the cash funds or stocks, so they have no control over either aspect. I have the CHESS holding statement in the name of the fund for all stocks I have purchased, unleveraged and not "loaned". They quite simply have no legal or physical ability to access or control either.

I am not saying your letter is false I am just stating what I know to be true and what I have been told by Esuperfund. If they tried that on me I would leave them in a flash and go to me existing accountant.

Be aware Esuperfund....I have our written agreement and diary notes of our recent discussion. Do this to me and you are out! Transfer my business or mess with my fund without my written authority and the regulator will be knocking at your door.


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## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				hangseng; said:
			
		

> Hmmmmmmmmm...interesting.
> 
> Firstly how can they debit the fund without the authority of the Trustee?
> 
> Secondly they have no access to the cash funds or stocks, so they have no control over either aspect. I have the CHESS holding statement in the name of the fund for all stocks I have purchased, unleveraged and not "loaned". They quite simply have no legal or physical ability to access or control either.
> 
> I am not saying your letter is false I am just stating what I know to be true and what I have been told by Esuperfund. If they tried that on me I would leave them in a flash and go to me existing accountant.
> 
> Be aware Esuperfund....I have our written agreement and diary notes of our recent discussion. Do this to me and you are out! Transfer my business or mess with my fund without my written authority and the regulator will be knocking at your door.




Well, if you don't want to believe me then why don't you call Esuperfund and ask them if it's true. I guess that if I've made this up then Esuperfund would be very interested in pursuing me in all manner of ways. 

The Direct Debit mandate is signed to allow Esuperfund to debit fees. If you have any legal experince and can show me how I can contest this charge them I'd be happy to hear from you.
If Esuperfund deny it then I will post images.

I assure you what I have stated as fact, is fact. Don't get hung up on a comment that was clearly a example of what could happen.Your post clearly stated that Esuperfund would be silly to do this - and they have.


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## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

*Legg Mason Posts Loss on Costs to Protect Money Funds (Update5)*

May 6 (Bloomberg) -- Legg Mason Inc. posted a bigger-than estimated loss, its first in 25 years as a public company, after pumping $517 million into money-market funds hurt by subprime mortgage-tainted debt.

Legg Mason has set aside almost $2 billion since November to prop up three money funds against losses on debt issued by structured investment vehicles, or SIVs. To replenish capital, Legg Mason plans to raise $1 billion by selling 20 million equity units, its second cash infusion in the past six months, the Baltimore-based company said today in a statement. 
-------------------------------------------------------------

So, is there a difference between a Money Market Fund and a Cash Management Trust from MacBank? Serious question guys, and I honestly don't know the answer* if *the brown stuff really hits the fan.

A number of firms have done the right thing and backed their money accounts with their profits - however they are under no legal obligation to do so. So, unless the public company has an obligation to stand by it's depositors, as with the major clearing banks by using shareholder funds in the final analysis (as Legg Mason Inc did), then you should be aware of any risk. It may be minimal, and indeed worth taking due to extra returns - but do the maths first.

Does anyone know if MacBank will puts it's assets on the line to defend the CMT?  Again a serious question as I don't see this commitment anywhere in the product disclosure.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> Letter from Esuperfund - March 2008
> ......
> -snip-
> To simplify the account payment process your fees will no longer be debited monthly, but will be debited annually once per year. *the first annual payment will be made on April 15, 2008* and will relate to payment of your Funds 2008 (/09) financial year accounting and taxation compliance obligations."  -snip-




I can only assume then that their 'application documentation' has changed since that fund was created.  My direct debit authority is limited to $599 annually on a given date. ie any changes would require a new authority.

Cheers ......... Alan


----------



## hangseng

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> Well, if you don't want to believe me then why don't you call Esuperfund and ask them if it's true. I guess that if I've made this up then Esuperfund would be very interested in pursuing me in all manner of ways.
> 
> The Direct Debit mandate is signed to allow Esuperfund to debit fees. If you have any legal experince and can show me how I can contest this charge them I'd be happy to hear from you.
> If Esuperfund deny it then I will post images.
> 
> I assure you what I have stated as fact, is fact. Don't get hung up on a comment that was clearly a example of what could happen.Your post clearly stated that Esuperfund would be silly to do this - and they have.




CAFA1234, I can see you are annoyed and rightly so. However please read my post again. I did not state, intend, nor imply I didn't believe you.

I only stated what I know to be true from what I have been told by them and what my actions would be if they did that to me.


----------



## Markcoinoz

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> I can only assume then that their 'application documentation' has changed since that fund was created.  My direct debit authority is limited to $599 annually on a given date. ie any changes would require a new authority.
> 
> Cheers ......... Alan




Hi Alan,

I don't have a direct debit authority for Esuperfund.

They sent me a letter requesting the annual payment be made late last year.
All i have ever done was make payment through direct transfer.

It was the same when i had the Deed updated.
Just transferred the funds through to them.

Thats all i have ever paid to them.

CAFA1234,

Just in regard to the CMF & MMF i don't know the answer.

One of my reasons for changing over from a Managed Superfund to an SMSF
was to cut down the risk of seeing my savings being eroded through high management fees and poor investment choices.  As well, the idea of some Superfunds lending out shares to hedgefunds did not do anything to remain confident in the financial system from a regularity perspective as a whole.

With my Esuperfund, i keep very little cash in my ANZV2 account.
Nearly all is used for shares.  Therefore, if anything did happen i cannot possibly see how i could be affected as all the shares are in my name with all the Chess Statements.  Perhaps you may be in a different situation to me as far as retirement or close to it.  

I still have at least another 10 or 15 years to go.
Thats why i don't have much cash in the V2 account.

This thread has been very informative for me and its also important that you have raised many of these issues.

Keep them coming.

Cheers markcoinoz


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				hangseng; said:
			
		

> CAFA1234, I can see you are annoyed and rightly so. However please read my post again. I did not state, intend, nor imply I didn't believe you.
> 
> I only stated what I know to be true from what I have been told by them and what my actions would be if they did that to me.




Hey man, not annoyed at all  The issue is that I made various statements about esuperfund, and received a few replies to the effect that they would never do such a thing, and even that you would take your account away etc etc.

So I post 'evidence' and happy to back that up with scanned images to prove my assertions and then I get reply stating that you know differently and that what they have told you on the phone must be 'true'. 

I'm amused, but not annoyed. All I have done is to warn members of this board that they should beware, as I have personal history of Esuperfund acting in a manner that I personally find underhand, untrustworthy, and downright deceptive. It is for each to 'run their own book' on this one.


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				Markcoinoz; said:
			
		

> CAFA1234, Just in regard to the CMF & MMF i don't know the answer.
> 
> With my Esuperfund, i keep very little cash in my ANZV2 account.
> 
> Cheers markcoinoz




Hi, understand your view, and for most SMSF it is of little interest due to small cash balances. However report, after report shows SMSFs having far too much cash for extended period. My cash balance if often in excess of $100k and has exceeded $0.5m at times, mainly due to timing issues with selling / buying of assets and end of year contributions. Therefore I'm very keen to understand any hidden risk factors.

I've been bitten before and had all my savings wiped out by being greedy and trying to get an extra 0.5 pence (UK) in a share selling for 88 pence. That half penny greed cost me a packet. It was a Black Swan event that could not have been foreseen. If I'd stuck with my normal bank broker it would have been just fine with a good profit to boot!


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				Markcoinoz; said:
			
		

> CAFA1234,
> 
> Just in regard to the CMF & MMF i don't know the answer.
> With my Esuperfund, i keep very little cash in my ANZV2 account.
> Nearly all is used for shares.
> 
> Cheers markcoinoz




Esuperfund Press release Oct 2007.
....ESUPERFUND entered the SMSF space in 2000 and has rapidly become one of the dominant players in that market, currently administering client
funds exceeding $1 billion....
----------------------------
IF the $1b is true then even if only 5% is held in cash, and I suspect much more, that is $50m being held in the CMT. I sincerely hope there is never a problem.


----------



## vince

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

One of the first to join,  then called rol-solutions,  Esuper fund debited $1200 for Business concepts a few weeks ago for 20072008 tax return IN ADVANCE  all because I did not want to leave comsec and comm.bank ......So pulled the pin  on  Esupertrade .....


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> snip
> ----------------------------
> IF the $1b is true then even if only 5% is held in cash, and I suspect much more, that is $50m being held in the CMT. I sincerely hope there is never a problem.




A total of $17.7 billion at 30 Apr 2008 in the CMT according to their website.

Cheers ......... Alan


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				vince; said:
			
		

> One of the first to join,  then called rol-solutions,  Esuper fund debited $1200 for Business concepts a few weeks ago for  tax return IN ADVANCE  all because I did not want to leave comsec and comm.bank ......So pulled the pin  on  Esupertrade .....




So at least I'm not the only one 
Did you get a similar letter to mine (posted above in the last few days)?
Assume you had no communication other than to tell you they have done this?
Did you get your $1200 refunded, or are you going with Business Concepts?
Did you also get hit with a $200 for a new trust deed, with free updates for 5 years?
Have you been paying more than $599 PA as you were with ComBank?

Did you ever get asked to sign up for them to be your financial adviser so they could get the trail commissions? I refused as I had an adviser.

I too am with commsec and combank and very happy with them. 

Sorry to ask so many questions, but others are doubtful that Esuperfund would operate in this way, and this sort of exchange will hopefully expose Esuperfund for the methods that they employ.

Have you thought about a press release to the financial editors of the major media in Aus. I have an email address list of about 40 key editors and sub-editors for financial sections covering most of the media in Aus.


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				titl4; said:
			
		

> A total of $17.7 billion at 30 Apr 2008 in the CMT according to their website.
> 
> Cheers ......... Alan




Alan, $17.7b in the CMT, or Esuperfind clients in the CMT? I was referring to the Esuperfund press release that said the SMSFs they admined had $1b in assets.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



CAFA1234 said:


> Alan, $17.7b in the CMT, or Esuperfind clients in the CMT? I was referring to the Esuperfund press release that said the SMSFs they admined had $1b in assets.




No, sorry.  I realized that - I was just comparing the eSuperfund estimated amount to the fund total.  A significant part of the total is likely to be from super funds, self managed & otherwise, as I've noticed other funds use it as well.


----------



## awg

*No CFD*

Just checking Esuperfunds website.

They have deleted ability to use CFDs and Options within SMSF.

Previously they used IG Markets. I have the application form.

This change must have taken place within the last month or so.

Means use of leverage or short positions is totally restricted.

I will email them about this.

anyone else know why?


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: No CFD*



			
				awg; said:
			
		

> Just checking Esuperfunds website.
> 
> They have deleted ability to use CFDs and Options within SMSF.
> 
> Previously they used IG Markets. I have the application form.
> 
> This change must have taken place within the last month or so.
> 
> Means use of leverage or short positions is totally restricted.
> 
> I will email them about this.
> 
> anyone else know why?




Did you get a satisfactory answer to this ?


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

have'nt got around to emailing them yet.

but i will asap, and update when i get an answer.

stated on their website it is due to "reporting difficulties".

not urgent for me yet, but i was definately planing to utilise shorts and leverage into my strategy, so am hoping that they can resolve the issue in the medium term.

tony


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> have'nt got around to emailing them yet.
> 
> but i will asap, and update when i get an answer.
> 
> stated on their website it is due to "reporting difficulties".
> 
> not urgent for me yet, but i was definately planing to utilise shorts and leverage into my strategy, so am hoping that they can resolve the issue in the medium term.
> 
> tony




Best of luck - no chance, is my call.


----------



## JMcDog

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I understand the restriction(s) Esuper are placing on your share trading account (Commsec) and your CMA (Macquarie), however, I'm not so clear on any restrictions that may be applied to other accounts (e.g. Term Deposits).  Do these guys (Esuper) also have restrictions and/or attempt to make it difficult in this regards?  Thanks in advance.  JM


----------



## auric

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

from their website:
http://www.esuperfund.com.au/otherallowablesmsfassets.aspx




Other Investments

Other Investments that do not require a Broker including Property, Term Deposits and so on are permitted to be made by clients.  For these Investments ESUPERFUND will send you a Checklist each year guiding you on what documentation we require to prepare your SMSF’s annual compliance requirements.


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



			
				auric; said:
			
		

> from their website:
> http://www.esuperfund.com.au/otherallowablesmsfassets.aspx
> 
> Other Investments
> 
> Other Investments that do not require a Broker including Property, Term Deposits and so on are permitted to be made by clients.  For these Investments ESUPERFUND will send you a Checklist each year guiding you on what documentation we require to prepare your SMSF’s annual compliance requirements.




Ask yourself a simple question... if Esuperfund will not allow a CBA cash account for share trading because ' they are unable to devote resources to this ' (as per their letter to me above several posts), then how on earth will they cope with property. Property is far more complex for them and the auditor than a simple bank account - right?

I just don't get it with these guys.  I would get everything confirmed in writing and not just rely on what is on their web site or what they say on the phone. They are of course entitled to change the rules, but as you will have read over the past couple of pages these guys like to play hardball and in a most unprofessional manner.

My advice, would be to stay well clear of them. Would you really want a mob like this to be managing your super  - your call, but buyer beware.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

my belief why they wont allow CDIA brokerage rates.

simple.

they (Esuper) would pocket most of the dif between $30 and $20 cdia.

ie $10 per trade, they made plenty out of me today!

this is my opinion only, I have limited evidence that this is the predominate reason, mainly business model opinion.

ps. still havnt emailed them yet about the CFDs. (on ave 5 days till reply)

I would assume the worst they could do in respect of property etc, is charge extra accounting fees, same as a regular accountant would.

my deed permits various things.

one can always can take ones business elswhere if unhappy, they can reject your business if they dont want it.

tony


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> my belief why they wont allow CDIA brokerage rates.
> 
> simple.
> 
> they (Esuper) would pocket most of the dif between $30 and $20 cdia.
> 
> ie $10 per trade, they made plenty out of me today!
> 
> this is my opinion only, I have limited evidence that this is the predominate reason, mainly business model opinion.
> 
> ps. still havnt emailed them yet about the CFDs. (on ave 5 days till reply)
> 
> I would assume the worst they could do in respect of property etc, is charge extra accounting fees, same as a regular accountant would.
> 
> my deed permits various things.
> 
> one can always can take ones business elswhere if unhappy, they can reject your business if they dont want it.
> 
> tony




Take your last point, Tony. I have no issue with this - it's the unprofessional way in which they act that I find rather unsettling, particularly for a qualified accountant.

As for the trading cost differential... the few trades per year that I perform would not make them rich, and generally the trades are at least 5 figures and ofter 6, so I'm not too concerned about the difference. That's not why I'm with CBA - just my preference.

AND I've been paying a HIGHER rate to Esuper for the past 2 years for them to allow me not to use their preferred bank account. Again I've had no trouble with this arrangement. 

I would love to hear of anyone's experience (good and bad) of having property in a SMSF and the accountancy and audit aspects, in particular any of the low cost on-line mobs.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Belatedly, my reply about CFD accounts....see post below

I spoke to Esuper today, as to why they no longer allow CFD accounts (via IG markets)

I have been advised that existing clients, such as myself ,will be permitted to open a CFD account.

New clients will not be apparently.

This was stated to be for the reasons that there was a concern that the risk of clients burning up there accounts was perceived to be too high, and that the take-up rate had been very low anyway.

Perhaps this could be partly due to the rumblings in the industry about SMSFs.

Prudency with relation to audit requirements was mentioned.

I stated that one of the main reasons for me joining Esuper was that, slightly down the track, I could use CFD derivatives to hedge risk, as well as more easily short, and the most effective method to utilise leverage within an SMSF.

So all good..for me at least.

regards tony


----------



## CAFA1234

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> Belatedly, my reply about CFD accounts....see post below
> 
> I spoke to Esuper today, as to why they no longer allow CFD accounts (via IG markets)
> 
> I have been advised that existing clients, such as myself ,will be permitted to open a CFD account.
> 
> New clients will not be apparently.
> 
> This was stated to be for the reasons that there was a concern that the risk of clients burning up there accounts was perceived to be too high, and that the take-up rate had been very low anyway.
> 
> Perhaps this could be partly due to the rumblings in the industry about SMSFs.
> 
> Prudency with relation to audit requirements was mentioned.
> 
> I stated that one of the main reasons for me joining Esuper was that, slightly down the track, I could use CFD derivatives to hedge risk, as well as more easily short, and the most effective method to utilise leverage within an SMSF.
> 
> So all good..for me at least.
> 
> regards tony




Great news - just remember that with other aspects of Esuper they have been withdrawn even after being allowed for existing members. So, just be prepared to move supplier when you want to trade CFD. 
PS confirm your conversation by email and get some form of acknowledgment - just to be safe!


----------



## Gundini

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I am considering using Esuperfunds for my SMSF.

After reading this thread, and researching the many options for SMSF, I just can't go past these guys. For starters, this is the offer from their website today:

2009 Annual Compliance Fee

If you establish a SMSF before 15 July 2008 , the First Years 2009 annual compliance fee is FREE.  That is the fee to attend to the Fund’s 2009 annual compliance obligations is FREE.  This is a saving of $599.  Our FREE First Year Offer includes attending to ALL annual compliance obligations for your SMSF for the 2009 Financial Year including:

- Preparation of an annual Balance Sheet 
- Preparation of an annual Profit & Loss Statement
- Preparation of annual Member Statements
- Preparation of annual Trustee Resolutions & Minutes
- Preparation of an annual Income Tax Return
- Preparation of an annual Audit

So, it seems it will only cost me the $150 odd which is an annual Tax fee, and basically that appears to be it, outside of my investment transaction fees.

Does seem too good to be true, which makes me wary though.

But my question to those who have had experience with this broker is:

Is there any reason why I can't say invest $100K in a Bank West Telenet saver account, earning 8.25%, and $150K in a portfolio of shares with unlimited transactions as the website states? 

Also, there appears to be a penalty if you trade through any other account other than Commsec or Macquarie, considering I would probably only be making 30 or so trades per year, the extra $10 or there abouts that I would save trading through a cheaper online broker would amount to $300 per year. This doesn't seem too unreasonable considering their cheap auditing fees, especially when most SMSF brokers add on $20 fees for more than 15 trades or investments per year. 

I applied sometime last week online, so I don't have the full disclosure doc yet, but so far, these guys seem to be the best bite for buck around at the moment.

Am I missing anything?


----------



## Gundini

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Anyway, I have recieved the disclosure document and all seems good to me. It also re-affirms the free compliance service for the first 12 month, but does state your super has to first go to either Commsec or Macquarie, then be invested how you wish...  

So, really, a no brainer at this stage.

Who would you recommend as the better overall service/ value for money/ most reliable server for trading shares? I really only want to make say 20 to 30 trades each year...

I am only asking for ASF experience with these companies of course, not actual recommendations....


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Maybe I've misunderstood your query but with new Esuperfund SMSF's there are limited investment options.  One of those is that for all share trading you must use Commsec as the broker and through the designated accounts.  

I am happy with Esuperfund and the price is certainly right but I also have to accept that there is a cost in flexibility.

Cheers ........... Alan



Gundini said:


> .............. but does state your super has to first go to either Commsec or Macquarie, then be invested how you wish.................
> Who would you recommend as the better overall service/ value for money/ most reliable server for trading shares? I really only want to make say 20 to 30 trades each year...


----------



## CFD

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Who are you guys going to use instead of Esuperfunds?


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Gundini, that sounds like a really good deal from E-Super.   I guess by insisting on your using specific broker and bank account they are able to standardise the data entry requirements and thus offer such a cheap service.
If I were starting over with setting up a SMSF at this stage, I'd go for this.
They have been around long enough now to have worked out any problems, I would guess, and I'd also imagine that if there were many dissatisfied customers, it would have become known.

Having just paid an accountant far too much for very shonky work, I think anyone signing up with Esuper is probably getting a decent deal.   Just one aspect could be a concern:  can you ask them for advice about structuring investments etc, or would you still need a separate financial planner for that?


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Julia said:


> can you ask them for advice about structuring investments etc, or would you still need a separate financial planner for that?




Hi Julia & others.

Esuper provide NO advice re investments. If u want that they are not suitable.

They provide only limited and restricted accountancy advice, that is directly related to specific questions you ask :re your SMSF.

Because "Simpler Super" is complex and fraught with changes, you really cannot get away from needing some independant accountancy advice.

Example.  I recently enquired to Esuper when I should have my 82AAT form, for tax deduction completed, they emailed back "asap". So i did, ( on 9/6).

I week later, I notice an article in the SMH, saying, that regs have been changed, and that unless 82AAT form is lodged before 30th June, NO TAX DEDUCTION WILL BE ALLOWED!.....only coincidence that I asked them, previously the lodge date was prior to tax return ie May 2009. 

No one told me !!!

they are an audit and admin service....there is no free lunch...do the sums, how much does $600pa get u of a professionals time?

tony


----------



## tetranomad

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I just noticed that Discount DIY Super - discountdiysuper.com.au - provide a similar service to ESUPERFUND. The differences seem to be that they charge a higher annual fee of $990 for 50 transactions or less, and they do not restrict what broker you use. Indeed IB is linked on their website as a popular online broker.

Does anyone have any experience with Discount DIY Super?

PS I haven't looked into this in any detail, but from the layout of their website, I wonder whether they are an ESUPERFUND spinoff (or copycat?!).


----------



## daedalus

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

hi everyone,

i am thinking of joining esuperfund, but before i do can i please ask a few questions as part of my risk management process?

Note that my SMSF will be simple - Bank account to hold cash, Commsec account to passively hold stocks for the long term. A bit of derivatives for hedging, but this will be a small part of my portfolio

1. How reliable are Esuperfund? What is their track record in successfully completing the accounting related work for a SMSF without mistakes? I want to avoid ATO penalties!

2. Has Esuperfund ever made a mistake on someone's SMSF such that the ATO applied penalties?

3. If Esuperfund makes a mistake, their client will pay the price. Do they have any form of insurance/assurance?

4. Once I join, would I have to do anything besides signing forms forwarded to me by Esuperfund? Would Esuperfund do absolutely anything?

Thanks everyone!


----------



## bigdog

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I am interested in setting a Esuperfunds SMSF to reduce income tax exposure for myself (64) and my wife (61) 

Currently we do buy shares separately (do not trade) and I do use some borrowed money.

I am retired and do have an annuity pension fund managed by professionals which I do not plan to touch.

I am 64 and 65 next July and have some questions.

Q1: I believe that I can not put money into super after 65 unless earned from working?

Q2: Are capital gains on SMSF share sales taxable and if so at what rate?

Q3: If the SMSF pays an annuity pension, is income tax payable on capital gains on SMSF share sales?

Q4: Are there any other issues or good points that I should be aware of?

Q5: Pros for Esuperfunds SMSF 

Q5: Against Esuperfunds SMSF


----------



## dsduncs

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I am NOT a financial advisor..

I opened my SMSF in May 2008 with Esuperfund so have limited experience and have only one tax year/audit completed so far.

-------------------------
Q5: Against Esuperfunds SMSF

As AWG metioned: 
"
Esuper provide NO advice re investments. If u want that they are not suitable.
They provide only limited and restricted accountancy advice, that is directly related to specific questions you ask :re your SMSF"..

and  paper work and lots of reading..

Sometimes they take a day or two to respond to queries by phone or email (but better than some alternatives).

The main problem is accountancy/SMSF tax advice.

You really need an advisor.
The advisor will charge, but at least you can find out  how much..

You also need to keep abreast of changes in the SMSF and tax laws.

Esuperfund moved their recommend bank account from Macquarie to ANZ, leading to lots of paper work..

Q & A:
Known unknows are OK - it is the unknown unknows that are the worry.

Your Q1-Q3 are typical of queries that come up and Esuperfund  probably won't help you with these sort of question.

---------------------------------------

Q4: Pros Esuperfunds SMSF

COST:
I paid $599 for accounts and audit for 2008/2009
I paid $99 to change the trustees. (plus lots of paper work)
I paid about $500 to open a TRAP which I believe is a once off charge -
For comparison I've seen some Superfunds charge 0.5% PER YEAR to run a TRAP ($1500 per year for a $300K TRAP)

RESPONSE:
They respond to queries by phone or email in a day or two  
Others funds, you have to book a meeting with an accountant or advisor.

CONTROL
I feel as if I'm in control of my Super, I know the costs involved and the distribution of my funds. 

The ANZ V2 plus account give resonable interest rate for Esuper clients.

---------------
In my case setting the SMSF with a company as a trustee (rather than a family member) in the first place would have saved me a lot of paper work.

Note:These are just MY experiences SO FAR after 17months and should not be taken as advice or a recommendation.


----------



## howiej0

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

"In my case setting the SMSF with a company as a trustee (rather than a family member) in the first place would have saved me a lot of paper work."

Why is there a difference? 

Any other advantages/disadvantages?

Thanks


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



howiej0 said:


> "In my case setting the SMSF with a company as a trustee (rather than a family member) in the first place would have saved me a lot of paper work."
> 
> Why is there a difference?
> 
> Any other advantages/disadvantages?
> 
> Thanks




corporate trustee advantages:

* 1 person can be the trustee..as sole director of company

* easy to add people to fund

* no need to amend share registry records if new members added to fund ( big advantage)

* keeps SMSF and personal shares ( and other assets) totally separate

* you get to describe yourself as "company director" if you get arrested

disadvantages

* costs money to setup corporate trustee ($600 one-off with mine, but can be much more)

* costs $40 per year in ASIC fee

* make sure you select a short name for your trustee and super fund

* see my rant here https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16850

do some google searching, you will find further details


----------



## dsduncs

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I used Cleardocs to create the company:
search on Cleardocs au
/products-company-registration.html

It cost: $537.50 

but needed some help deciding which options to choose.
Esuperfund MAY do this for you if you start off with a company structure. Ask them..

For advantages I think AWG summarized it well
Disadvanges: I now pay an additional $40 per year to ASIC.

Also Search on "SMSF individual company trustee"

AWG's  short names is a really really good hint.
I curse my 23 character superfund name every time I come to write it


----------



## lasty

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I know of a firm that can do set up,audit and tax return completed and lodged  unlimited transactions as well as online web platform that shows trading history CGT etc. all for only $2200 pa


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I have sent off my application to these guys.

Have an offer on now. Free set up and free admin for 2010 financial year. This includes all the tax and audit requirements. Need to apply by 15th November. After than an annual fee of $599. Plus the $150 levy for ATO. $749 is very good for all admin and other costs associated with a SMSF. 

Need to use the ANZ bank account and Comsec which is fine for me. They get automated feeds from them to keep costs low.

Still seems very cheap - anyone know if they outsource to India or if they get commissions from ANZ/Comsec. Could not see any disclosure of the latter but may not be required. Hey for $599, who cares.......

Will let you know how good (or bad) the service is.


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



dsduncs said:


> -------------------------
> Sometimes they take a day or two to respond to queries by phone or email (but better than some alternatives).



This is my experience.  
I usually wait a week for e-mail replies. If after a week they haven't replied  I send the same e-mail every day until they reply. I suppose their budget is tight. The e-mails contain documents so the other option is to send them by land.  

The phone calls are often handled by a call centre who take your name and number and pass it on. I have found E-super call back on the same day or the next.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Wysiwyg said:


> This is my experience.
> I usually wait a week for e-mail replies. If after a week they haven't replied  I send the same e-mail every day until they reply. I suppose their budget is tight. The e-mails contain documents so the only other option is to send them by land.
> 
> The phone calls are often handled by a call centre who take your name and number and pass it on. I have found E-super call back on the same day or the next.




I sent some emails asking about features of the service and got replies within 24 hours. But maybe it helps being a potential customer?

Is the call centre foreign or Australian?


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



gooner said:


> I sent some emails asking about features of the service and got replies within 24 hours. But maybe it helps being a *potential customer?*
> 
> Is the call centre foreign or Australian?




Australian. Yes you are priority. I have been with them for two years and I do remember at the beginning they were prompt with replies. I need documentation to satisfy ATO requirements for fund transfers when I periodically roll-over from my industry fund.

* An ATO "letter of compliance" for my fund.    
* An ATO trustee letter.


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

With regards to security I think they should have a number assigned to each member for identification when communicating. At the moment my super fund name is the only identification they use so anyone could say they were me. Not even a D.O.B. or street address check.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Wysiwyg said:


> Australian. Yes you are priority. I have been with them for two years and I do remember at the beginning they were prompt with replies. I need documentation to satisfy ATO requirements for fund transfers when I periodically roll-over from my industry fund.
> 
> * An ATO "letter of compliance" for my fund.
> * An ATO trustee letter.




Why do you not transfer the whole amount across from industry fund and save on management and admin fees?


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



gooner said:


> Why do you not transfer the whole amount across from industry fund and save on management and admin fees?



Because I work for different/change employers 3 to 6 times a year, I have an industry fund that is recognised by most employers and I keep the minimum in there so costs aren't a problem.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Gooner, I'm not knocking E-Super because I've never used them and don't know anything about them other than that they are cheap.

How about before committing yourself you have a fee-free interview with two or three local accountants, first on the phone making clear that you are looking for someone who has expertise in SMSF's,and want a quote for set up, then annual tax return and audit (get this in writing),  then explain that you can get the work done for $X by E-Super, and what can they offer?

I guess it's just a personal preference, but I really value having a personal relationship with my accountant, being able to phone him or drop in with any queries.

Maybe consider the total value of your Super and consider whether the $1000 or so that you are saving by doing it via the mass-produced option, is worth not having that personal connection?

Do you think you would get that personal tax advice etc from E-super that you would from your own accountant?
Presumably E-Super can only do the work for such a small cost because  there are no bells and whistles.

I know it absolutely wouldn't be worth it for me.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Wysiwyg said:


> Because I work for different/change employers 3 to 6 times a year, I have an industry fund that is recognised by most employers and I keep the minimum in there so costs aren't a problem.




I thought with choice of fund legislation, you could nominate your SMSF to receive contributions from all employers?


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



gooner said:


> I thought with choice of fund legislation, you could nominate your SMSF to receive contributions from all employers?



Probably but then I would have to change all the details with past employers that I work for again. It is much much less hassle for me to simply roll-over from the industry fund when the pot builds up than deal with the records from multiple employers. I'm not that smart.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Julia said:


> Gooner, I'm not knocking E-Super because I've never used them and don't know anything about them other than that they are cheap.
> 
> How about before committing yourself you have a fee-free interview with two or three local accountants, first on the phone making clear that you are looking for someone who has expertise in SMSF's,and want a quote for set up, then annual tax return and audit (get this in writing),  then explain that you can get the work done for $X by E-Super, and what can they offer?
> 
> I guess it's just a personal preference, but I really value having a personal relationship with my accountant, being able to phone him or drop in with any queries.
> 
> Maybe consider the total value of your Super and consider whether the $1000 or so that you are saving by doing it via the mass-produced option, is worth not having that personal connection?
> 
> Do you think you would get that personal tax advice etc from E-super that you would from your own accountant?
> Presumably E-Super can only do the work for such a small cost because  there are no bells and whistles.
> 
> I know it absolutely wouldn't be worth it for me.




Julia

Good points all. I was actually considering doing all the work myself apart from the initial Trust Deed and the statutory audit which you can get for a few hundred dollars. However, the $599 is so cheap that it is easier to get esuperfund to do it all. 

I feel comfortable doing my own research on tax changes etc as this is something I have often done when working as an accountant and also for my own personal tax affairs. I always do my own tax returns as well.

Outsourcing my tax returns would feel a bit like a painter getting someone else to paint his own house :


----------



## mick59wests

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hi anyone who is still looking at this thread.

What I am concerned with is how much do I need to know about all the super laws, ATO lodgements and super changes? I am comfortable with the investment side but I was expecting ESuperfund to look after all of the administration with me supplying them what is required.

For anyone who is using ESuperfund, how much do you need to know? 

thanks

Mick


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



mick59wests said:


> Hi anyone who is still looking at this thread.
> 
> What I am concerned with is how much do I need to know about all the super laws, ATO lodgements and super changes? I am comfortable with the investment side but I was expecting ESuperfund to look after all of the administration with me supplying them what is required.
> 
> For anyone who is using ESuperfund, how much do you need to know?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Mick




My experience is they are very helpul and answer any question put to them, BUT you have to ask, they do not provide ongoing advice on super regs, changes etc. (so far as I know)

This can be an issue, as things can be complicated..simple super my ass.

Its the things you dont even know you dont know that can get you

I get around this by occasionally consulting my own accountant re super.

He is excellent but charges much more for SMSF. I only rarely need clarification.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Mick, you can subscribe to the ATO's SMSF updates which advise you of any changes in regulations/requirements.
However, these would presume that you already have a comprehensive knowledge of the basic rules involved in running a SMSF.

This is just one of the reasons I use my own accountant.  I know he will keep me up with whatever I need to know.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



mick59wests said:


> Hi anyone who is still looking at this thread.
> 
> What I am concerned with is how much do I need to know about all the super laws, ATO lodgements and super changes? I am comfortable with the investment side but I was expecting ESuperfund to look after all of the administration with me supplying them what is required.
> 
> For anyone who is using ESuperfund, how much do you need to know?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Mick




I used eSuperfund for a few years.  Have since changed providers but only because I wanted more flexible options than are permitted in their very low cost system.  I was very happy that they provided exactly what they said they would.

They do handle the administration with the client providing the required information.  

However, as I understand it, the trustees (you) are responsible for operation of the SELF MANAGED superannuation fund in accordance with the law - and maintaining the records required both legally and to be able to provide eSuperfund (or other administration provider) with the necessary information.  

Esuperfund and most administration providers will answer questions but not many are in a position to provide detailed & ongoing education unless at a cost.  The ATO website is a good information source and there are quite a few books available.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

having read this thread, i feel i have been thoroughly ripped off having paid >$4000 for smsf admin/audit to my accountant and he wants to raise that by $1000 for next year! i even provide him with all the spreadsheets with all share and bank transactions and all dividend statements etc. 
it's a basic smsf with 2 trustees both receiving a pension, ~40 investments (shares) and <15 buy/sell transactions p.a.

1. does that warrant the fee? 

2. anyone paying anywhere near that or do i hold the record for rip offs? 

3. any reason why esuperfund would not be able to provide the service? 

4. i noticed on their site that "ESUPERFUND no longer accepts Existing SMSF's. Clients with an Existing SMSF who wish ESUPERFUND to act for them are required to establish a New SMSF." does that mean that i get them to establish a new smsf, transfer my assets to that and wind up my existing smsf? 

5. would it be a big deal going through the process in 4. (or what other process that is required)? what sort of time frame are we talking about for this process?

thanks in advance. i'm really hoping it's feasible to get it all set up for the 2010 tax year.


----------



## freddy2

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



avago said:


> having read this thread, i feel i have been thoroughly ripped off having paid >$4000 for smsf admin/audit to my accountant and he wants to raise that by $1000 for next year! i even provide him with all the spreadsheets with all share and bank transactions and all dividend statements etc.
> it's a basic smsf with 2 trustees both receiving a pension, ~40 investments (shares) and <15 buy/sell transactions p.a.
> 
> 1. does that warrant the fee?
> 
> 2. anyone paying anywhere near that or do i hold the record for rip offs?
> 
> 3. any reason why esuperfund would not be able to provide the service?
> 
> 4. i noticed on their site that "ESUPERFUND no longer accepts Existing SMSF's. Clients with an Existing SMSF who wish ESUPERFUND to act for them are required to establish a New SMSF." does that mean that i get them to establish a new smsf, transfer my assets to that and wind up my existing smsf?
> 
> 5. would it be a big deal going through the process in 4. (or what other process that is required)? what sort of time frame are we talking about for this process?
> 
> thanks in advance. i'm really hoping it's feasible to get it all set up for the 2010 tax year.




1 IMO, no

2 Many people are in your situation and you would only being "ripped off" an average amount. A lot of accountants/financial planners are fleecing their financially uneducated clients with fees upon fees upon commisions.

3 IMO, there is no reason why uSuperfund couldn't provide this service.

4 IMO, you shouldn't have any trouble setting up a new SMSF with eSuperfund and transferring your investments. Shoot them an e-mail  with your questions, they seem to be very helpful and you are a potential new client.

5 It takes a bit of time, say 2-6 months to get everything running and investments transferred, but it feels really good to not have any ticket clippers skimming one's retirement savings.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

>$4000 seems high for the transactions you quote.  I would have considerably  more transactions, plus I phone and email my accountant multiple times during the year, and my bill is around $2000.

Yes, Esuperfund is cheaper.  I just like having the personal contact.

One thing I learned fairly early was to ask for a quote for doing the work, and get it in writing.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

*freddy2*
thanks for your considered response and encouragement. i emailed esuperfund and was pleasantly surprised to get a (positive) response within a couple of hours.

*julia*
thanks for your view on full service vs execution only. i also had that view but realise now that i don't need much service and on the odd occassion i did i would pay for it.

on balance i think i'll give esuperfund a go and if that didn't work out then i would try to find an account like julia's.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



avago said:


> *freddy2*
> thanks for your considered response and encouragement. i emailed esuperfund and was pleasantly surprised to get a (positive) response within a couple of hours.
> 
> *julia*
> thanks for your view on full service vs execution only. i also had that view but realise now that i don't need much service and on the odd occassion i did i would pay for it.
> 
> on balance i think i'll give esuperfund a go and if that didn't work out then i would try to find an account like julia's.




Avago

You will find the esuperfund site answers most questions you have about super rules, tax etc. And if it does not, then you can ask them. They won't give financial advice, as we "we advise you to do this", but it you have a question about pensions, or tax etc, they will answer on  a factual basis.  I set my fund up last year with them and they have been great so far. No tax returns done yet, so can't comment on that part of the cycle.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



gooner said:


> Avago
> 
> I set my fund up last year with them and they have been great so far. No tax returns done yet, so can't comment on that part of the cycle.




thanks gooner. more positives than negatives from what i've read. time to give them a go i think.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

anyone know if it is still commsec only with esuperfund or can you use other brokers additionally like IB or even a full service broker? thanks.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



avago said:


> anyone know if it is still commsec only with esuperfund or can you use other brokers additionally like IB or even a full service broker? thanks.




i rang them and got a return call quite quickly. sadly it's commsec or nothing.


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



avago said:


> i rang them and got a return call quite quickly. sadly it's commsec or nothing.





I tend to buy and hold in my SMSF (as against my personal holdings), so my SMSF transactions are few and far between. So I have no issues with using Comsec


----------



## The Muffin Man

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



avago said:


> having read this thread, i feel i have been thoroughly ripped off having paid >$4000 for smsf admin/audit to my accountant and he wants to raise that by $1000 for next year! i even provide him with all the spreadsheets with all share and bank transactions and all dividend statements etc.
> it's a basic smsf with 2 trustees both receiving a pension, ~40 investments (shares) and <15 buy/sell transactions p.a.
> 
> 1. does that warrant the fee?
> 
> 2. anyone paying anywhere near that or do i hold the record for rip offs?
> 
> 3. any reason why esuperfund would not be able to provide the service?
> 
> 4. i noticed on their site that "ESUPERFUND no longer accepts Existing SMSF's. Clients with an Existing SMSF who wish ESUPERFUND to act for them are required to establish a New SMSF." does that mean that i get them to establish a new smsf, transfer my assets to that and wind up my existing smsf?
> 
> 5. would it be a big deal going through the process in 4. (or what other process that is required)? what sort of time frame are we talking about for this process?
> 
> thanks in advance. i'm really hoping it's feasible to get it all set up for the 2010 tax year.




avago, what I'll point out firstly is that I'm an accountant.

Secondly, manually entering data into superannuation software from bank statements, spreadsheets, and dividend statements is awfully time consuming and really shouldn't be done anymore if it can be helped. I would suggest that this practice would make up the bulk of your fees. There are a number of data collection programs in the market place now such as Banklink, whereby all of your bank transactions are sent to your accountant monthly who can code them within a few minutes, and at the end of the year with the click of a button, transfer the coded information into superannuation software. Doing it this way saves so much time, and therefore money. Banklink is accountant side software, meaning you don't have to pay anything for it. Personally, I would see whether your accountant has access to this software.

Thirdly, it can often be a good idea for you to ensure that your accountant receives duplicates of dividend statements and annual tax summaries when they are sent. This also speeds up the process at the end of the year when the work is being done. It's all about working with your accountant to get an efficient system in place.

Fourthly, your fees may seem high, but I've learnt never to judge the fees paid by someone until I know exactly what their accounting work involves. For people looking in on an accounting firm, they often don't understand that certain things take time to process and administer. Some funds can be quite complex, especially when the clients withdraw money first and then tell you about it later . Often accountants need to consult with their professional bodies, communicate with their client's financial planners, and this all takes time. I guess the point I am making is that some SMSF's might have $150k in them but be charged $2500 due to complexity issues, and other funds might have $2m in them but be an absolute breeze to administer and only be charged $2000. 

It's all about how you set up the data handling process with your accountant, and how well you keep in contact.

What I will say is that a lot of our clients know that there are cheaper options out there, but they come to us because we know their situation intricately and they are often business clients of ours. We can plan contribution strategies, retirement strategies, inform them of all of the rules and regulations, and the list goes on.


----------



## avago

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



The Muffin Man said:


> avago, what I'll point out firstly is that I'm an accountant.




mm, thanks for the accountant's perspective. maybe i might have too hard on accounting firms.. you are right they definitely have their place especially in business and high wealth clients. i guess accountants in the smsf space could be analogous to full service vs execution-only service (the likes of esuperfund) assuming a good accounting practice. i don't have a need for a lot of service hence the execution-only provides me with good value. btw i have a good relationship with my accountant and i think he understands my position.


----------



## freddy2

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



The Muffin Man said:


> avago, what I'll point out firstly is that I'm an accountant.
> 
> Secondly, manually entering data into superannuation software from bank statements, spreadsheets, and dividend statements is awfully time consuming and really shouldn't be done anymore if it can be helped. I would suggest that this practice would make up the bulk of your fees. There are a number of data collection programs in the market place now such as Banklink, whereby all of your bank transactions are sent to your accountant monthly who can code them within a few minutes, and at the end of the year with the click of a button, transfer the coded information into superannuation software. Doing it this way saves so much time, and therefore money. Banklink is accountant side software, meaning you don't have to pay anything for it. Personally, I would see whether your accountant has access to this software.




If data entry makes up the bulk of the fees why is he paying a $200+ per accountant to do the job that can be done by a $25 per hour data entry clerk?


----------



## The Muffin Man

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



freddy2 said:


> If data entry makes up the bulk of the fees why is he paying a $200+ per accountant to do the job that can be done by a $25 per hour data entry clerk?




I doubt the data entry would have been done by a $200 accountant to begin with, more than likely a younger accountant which would be a base rate of $80-$120 per hour. If you made the data entry process more efficient by using programs like Banklink instead of manually off bank statements and spreadsheets, you would save a lot of cost. I'd rather have an accountant handling my data rather than a data entry clerk, especially when handling property, managed investments, and trusts, but to each their own. You might pay a little extra with the data entry, but the main value is in the expertise you receive from the accountant.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



The Muffin Man said:


> I doubt the data entry would have been done by a $200 accountant to begin with, more than likely a younger accountant which would be a base rate of $80-$120 per hour. If you made the data entry process more efficient by using programs like Banklink instead of manually off bank statements and spreadsheets, you would save a lot of cost. I'd rather have an accountant handling my data rather than a data entry clerk, especially when handling property, managed investments, and trusts, but to each their own. You might pay a little extra with the data entry, but the main value is in the expertise you receive from the accountant.



Hah, I had an accountant who did the data entry herself and charged me accordingly.  She made two huge mistakes which if I hadn't picked them up myself, would have cost me a great deal.
Expertise?  Not in this case.  (And she charged me double what she had quoted!)


----------



## So_Cynical

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



The Muffin Man said:


> I doubt the data entry would have been done by a $200 accountant to begin with, more than likely a younger accountant which would be a base rate of *$80-$120 per hour*. If you made the data entry process more efficient by using programs like Banklink instead of manually off bank statements and spreadsheets, you would save a lot of cost. I'd rather have an accountant handling my data rather than a data entry clerk, especially when handling property, managed investments, and trusts, but to each their own. You might pay a little extra with the data entry, but the main value is in the expertise you receive from the accountant.




I think your missing the point...in that no younger accountant of any type is worth $80-$120 per hour...$30 or $40 an hour maybe...jezzz even a genius account would be struggling to be worth $100 an hour...IMO


----------



## The Muffin Man

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Julia said:


> Hah, I had an accountant who did the data entry herself and charged me accordingly.  She made two huge mistakes which if I hadn't picked them up myself, would have cost me a great deal.
> Expertise?  Not in this case.  (And she charged me double what she had quoted!)




You could analyse any profession on Earth and you would find people that make mistakes. On the whole, a greater level of expertise is offered by an accountant compared to a data entry clerk when considering the area of superannuation.


----------



## The Muffin Man

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



So_Cynical said:


> I think your missing the point...*in that no younger accountant of any type is worth $80-$120 per hour...$30 or $40 an hour maybe...jezzz even a genius account would be struggling to be worth $100 an hour*...IMO




That's what you may believe, but there are a countless number of other people that would argue otherwise. It's subjective. In reality, business owners don't have the time to study superannuation legislation and figure out the most tax effective way of using an SMSF vehicle, so they rely on their accountant. What's an accountant worth that can offer expertise and experience in the area? How do you quantify that? If your accountant can advise ways in which tax can be minimised, and ensure your SMSF remains complying, then they can be extremely valuable. Compliance in the area of superannuation can be excessive to say the least.

Purely on the basis of data entry, the cheaper option is probably always going to be a set up like Esuperfund. What I was trying to say above was that there are ways in which you can make the process more efficient with your accountant, and therefore cheaper, and still have access to all the other benefits an accountant offers. An accountant probably shouldn't be used purely as a data entry conduit.

I'd be interested to know whether Esuperfund outsources it's data entry at all? I have no idea, would be interested to know the answer though.

Just as a side note, if a younger accountant is only worth $20-$30 as a charge out rate in your eyes, how much to you think they would actually be paid by their employer?


----------



## Sped

*esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*

esuperfund any saftey in transactions? 

The reason i ask is my partner of two years and i would like to start a smsf through esupersund and have quite large retail funds, however this girl is very nice but not the sharpest tool in the shed, and was wondering if she ever felt the "need" to spend would there be anything to stop her from just transfering money from the fund into her own personal bank account ? is there a way i could protect myself from this as i dont want to rock the boat by telling her i dont trust her and dont get me wrong i 99.9% do, but its too much money to let her have that kind of controll over! am i a bad person? 

 ( sorry to hijack thread my post got moved to another post im not sure why )


----------



## stilllearning

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



Sped said:


> esuperfund any saftey in transactions?
> 
> The reason i ask is my partner of two years and i would like to start a smsf through esupersund and have quite large retail funds, however this girl is very nice but not the sharpest tool in the shed, and was wondering if she ever felt the "need" to spend would there be anything to stop her from just transfering money from the fund into her own personal bank account ? is there a way i could protect myself from this as i dont want to rock the boat by telling her i dont trust her and dont get me wrong i 99.9% do, but its too much money to let her have that kind of controll over! am i a bad person?
> 
> ( sorry to hijack thread my post got moved to another post im not sure why )




To anyone who may know the answer, I would appreciate the answer for this as well

Another question is do e-superfund have the ability to take from your super? By that I mean do they have any access rights to the ANZ V2 account or the commsec trading account? Should one of their employees become fraudulent, can they access my funds without permission?

Yes I know I am not very trusting, but I have learnt to be the hard way...

Appreciate any assistance.


----------



## mrsmiffy

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hi, Esuperfund states that they have no access to your money, only the data. They also outsource the collection of their annual fee so I feel safe. No probs so far, all questions answered quickly, couple of phone calls returned the same day.


----------



## Datsun Disguise

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



stilllearning said:


> To anyone who may know the answer, I would appreciate the answer for this as well
> 
> Another question is do e-superfund have the ability to take from your super? By that I mean do they have any access rights to the ANZ V2 account or the commsec trading account? Should one of their employees become fraudulent, can they access my funds without permission?
> 
> Yes I know I am not very trusting, but I have learnt to be the hard way...
> 
> Appreciate any assistance.




Hi I've just finished setting my smsf up with esuperfund, in both the case of the V2 and the commsec account I had to call both ANZ and commsec to activate my accounts. So unless you tell esuperfund your passwords the only people who can rip you off are those who work for ANZ and commsec! - hope that makes you feel better! 

(not to mention your blunt tool of course - I hope for your sake she isn't an ASFer!!)


----------



## myname

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



Datsun Disguise said:


> Hi I've just finished setting my smsf up with esuperfund, in both the case of the V2 and the commsec account I had to call both ANZ and commsec to activate my accounts. So unless you tell esuperfund your passwords the only people who can rip you off are those who work for ANZ and commsec! - hope that makes you feel better!
> 
> (not to mention your blunt tool of course - I hope for your sake she isn't an ASFer!!)




I am jealous that you were able to trust Esuperfund and open your account  .I have the paper work but I cannot bring myself to do it just yet.


----------



## Julia

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



myname said:


> I am jealous that you were able to trust Esuperfund and open your account  .I have the paper work but I cannot bring myself to do it just yet.



Interesting,myname.  What are your concerns about opening the account?


----------



## myname

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



Julia said:


> Interesting,myname.  What are your concerns about opening the account?




my concerns are that I do not know who is Esuperfund and who runs it. No names are actually given on contact with them etc. They  could be from overseas with a small office in Melb. Has any one met any one from Esuperfund or being to their office.


----------



## derty

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



myname said:


> my concerns are that I do not know who is Esuperfund and who runs it. No names are actually given on contact with them etc. They  could be from overseas with a small office in Melb. Has any one met any one from Esuperfund or being to their office.



I have rang and spoken to people in Melbourne, so i guess that proves that there are people there. 

Esuperfund do not hold your money, it is contained in your own ANZ V2 account that you administer. It is not a Fund per se. Esuper help you set up the accounts and manage all the end of year taxation.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I've never used them, but they have been around for some while.  Heard they were owned by Suncorp, but can't find any verification of this.

The following is from the "Eureka Report" and should reassure you that they do genuinely exist and perform their stated purpose.
http://www.eurekareport.com.au/iis/iis.nsf/ak/7UGtA5?opendocument

If you have any doubts get some quotes for the setup fee and annual tax return/audit from a few accountants.  You sound as though you might be much more comfortable using someone you can actually sit down and talk with and who can give you some advice where you need it.

Consider the cost as a percentage of what you intend to invest in the SF.
I only pay my accountant around $2000 for the annual tax return and audit, plus all ongoing contacts during the year.  For me it's absolutely worth the small amount more than a generic online fund.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Julia said:


> I've never used them, but they have been around for some while.  Heard they were owned by Suncorp, but can't find any verification of this.
> 
> The following is from the "Eureka Report" and should reassure you that they do genuinely exist and perform their stated purpose.
> http://www.eurekareport.com.au/iis/iis.nsf/ak/7UGtA5?opendocument
> 
> If you have any doubts get some quotes for the setup fee and annual tax return/audit from a few accountants.  You sound as though you might be much more comfortable using someone you can actually sit down and talk with and who can give you some advice where you need it.
> 
> Consider the cost as a percentage of what you intend to invest in the SF.
> I only pay my accountant around $2000 for the annual tax return and audit, plus all ongoing contacts during the year.  For me it's absolutely worth the small amount more than a generic online fund.




Thanks for your info.I like your idea ,but I also like cheap. I am still deciding


----------



## myname

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



derty said:


> I have rang and spoken to people in Melbourne, so i guess that proves that there are people there.
> 
> Esuperfund do not hold your money, it is contained in your own ANZ V2 account that you administer. It is not a Fund per se. Esuper help you set up the accounts and manage all the end of year taxation.




Thanks for the info


----------



## DocK

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

_Sometimes_ you get what you pay for.  The suggestions our accountant has made re our smsf have been worth much more than the amount we could have saved by bypassing them for a service such as esuperfunds.  I use MYOB  and excel to enter transactions etc and pay approx $1500 pa to accountants for tax return plus $550 pa to auditor.  The same accountant does our business and personal returns as well, so don't know if that makes the smsf stuff a little cheaper than if that's all they were doing - probably not


----------



## myname

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



Datsun Disguise said:


> Hi I've just finished setting my smsf up with esuperfund, in both the case of the V2 and the commsec account I had to call both ANZ and commsec to activate my accounts. So unless you tell esuperfund your passwords the only people who can rip you off are those who work for ANZ and commsec! - hope that makes you feel better!
> 
> (not to mention your blunt tool of course - I hope for your sake she isn't an ASFer!!)




How are you going with it?Are you satisfied with the service to date?


----------



## Datsun Disguise

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



myname said:


> How are you going with it?Are you satisfied with the service to date?




So far so good -although I haven't gone through an audit yet. Probabky too soon to make a jugement, but everything to date has run smoothly.

DocK has got a point, re getting what you pay for - but I am comfortable that I am getting what I pay for with this lot. It is a basic admin, audit and tax service - no pretense of financial advice, I am happy to get that through Morningstar emails (genral advice) -  they have a lot of SMSF related info and through a financial advisor for specific advice. I am mainly investing in shares and am looking into direct property investment as well. I don't need someone to tell me when to buy RIO and BHP and sell CBA and CSL so a fee for service advisor suits me fine. Anyway - for me it seems to be working out OK, no complaints to date. 

Just to re-state wehat some others have said - you do not hold an account with them and you do not send money through them - your ANZ account is the cash accoutn and you control the money going into or out of it. The comsec account settles directly from the ANZ account. Hope that helps.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hi all,

If you can get your tax and audit plus all contact for $2000pa, with your own accountant, that seems quite reasonable. Prices may have fallen somewhat since I set up my SMSF, at which time $3000+ was the going rate.

They also charged $1200+ for fund setup vs Esuper free.

The other question I can venture an opinion, that is I am satified beyond reasonable doubt that your money is "safe", in that Esuper has no capability to interfere with your funds, and does not invest them on your behalf etc etc.

In the unlikely event they went broke, you would be needing a new auditor/SMSF tax preparer. 

Your funds are accesable using regular online platforms such as ANZ and Commsec, under the name of your SMSF.

In any case, if there is questions regarding my super that I want a 2nd expert opinion, or have my strategy reviewed, I can consult my my personal accountant, at hourly rates.

In my situation, the difference was almost $3k pa, and compounded over approx 30 yrs, thats a lot.  DYOR.


----------



## Julia

*Re: esuperfund any saftey in transactions?*



Datsun Disguise said:


> no pretense of financial advice, I am happy to get that through Morningstar emails (genral advice) -  they have a lot of SMSF related info and through a financial advisor for specific advice.
> 
> I am mainly investing in shares and am looking into direct property investment as well. I don't need someone to tell me when to buy RIO and BHP and sell CBA and CSL so a fee for service advisor suits me fine.



If you're happy to make your own investment decisions about when to buy and sell, what would you actually be using an advisor for?


----------



## Slipperz

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

esuperfund didn't handle my money at all.

They set up the commsec and ANZ account in the name of my fund then I had to rollover fom my existing fund.

Took me a while as they were very cautious about releasing the funds but eventually I got my check which i then deposited into the ANZ account and off I went.

In all honesty it's the best decision I have ever made in my life.

This FY I returned nearly 300% 

If I can maintain these sorts of gains I'll be retiring early and trading on my capital for a living in a few years.

And to think 18 months ago I was worrried sick about my financial future after dropping about 20K in the GFC.

I dropped that this week on market and it hasn't really fazed me at all!

Anyway it's not for everyone but in this day age age with all the information we need online and great online brokerages if you have half an idea of how to trade managing your own fund is the way to go imho.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I had my fund with these guys, they kept swapping things around and in the end when I didn't move to their latest platform (it was pre GFC and I refused to use Mac Bank) they threatened to up my fees quite a bit. Anyway it got to hard and they didn't want the account anymore in the end. Sooooooo I went down the street and talked to my accountant. He does it all now for about 20% lower than these guys and the service is great! In the end eSuper sold my account (after I left them!) to some other outfit and they took over all my ATO contact points.... man was I peed, not even a by your leave, no nothing! I registered a complaint but that has disappeared into the ether! I am still a little confused as to how a tax agent can just say yup I am now xyz's agent then all correspondence goes to them and nobody even checks with you that its kosher! That is a damn hole in the system if I have ever seen one!

So no real complaint with eSuper, its OK as far as it goes but its a sausage factory so don't be expecting too much in the way of service (not that you should really need heaps!). I'd talk to your accountant, you might be surprised, I was  Now I really don't know why I didn't go to him first!


----------



## derty

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Mr Z said:


> Sooooooo I went down the street and talked to my accountant. He does it all now for about 20% lower than these guys and the service is great!



So your accountant setup your fund and does the tax audit for less then $560/annum? If so that a bloody good deal.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

He didn't set it up, it already existed. eSuper where charging me more than the 650 std fee (550?!) at the time because I would not go to Mac Bank but I was with their original suggested accounts, they changed the rules a few times early in the piece. The fund is extremely well organized and not a massive amount of work so that counts I suppose. The fee when they sold my account was 900, is now 500 odd +GST (can get a little higher) and I get to talk to the guy, ask questions etc. At that time the standard eSuper fee was 650, surprised it has gone down, I think it was was 550 when I first went to them, stretching the memory! I think that many rip off SMSFs, have seen silly some quotes for the work involved JMO.

Anyway... it can't hurt to ask your local guy. I am sure many will not be reasonable but some will.



Edit: I don't know where you got 550 from? I was surprised it was that low! I see $699 on their site FWIW, is that wrong?


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hmmm sorry meant 560 not 550... mental block


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

One area which is grey,( to me anyway) is exactly what the auditor is required to do.

My personal accountant is adamant that every transaction, all dividends, SPP, rights issues, etc be individually accounted by him, and that would cost $.

So I went with Esuper.

1st year, all easy, electronic everything.

2nd and subsequent years, I must submit physical copies of all the above, and reconcile them individually off my bank statement, which, while instilling neccesary record-keeping practices, does seem to somewhat defeat the purpose of electronic audit, as well as being a pita


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> 2nd and subsequent years, I must submit physical copies of all the above, and reconcile them individually off my bank statement, which, while instilling neccesary record-keeping practices, does seem to somewhat defeat the purpose of electronic audit, as well as being a pita




That has not changed by the sounds of it and I do the same setup work for my accountant... annotated statements and the like. I figure it reduces costs and it makes me keep it all nice and organized as I go.

I was with them when it was Needham & Assoc.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Mr Z said:


> That has not changed by the sounds of it and I do the same setup work for my accountant... annotated statements and the like. I figure it reduces costs and it makes me keep it all nice and organized as I go.
> 
> I was with them when it was Needham & Assoc.




Perhaps my memory is letting me down

For the absolute control freak, this site may be of interest.

Shows how one can do own setup and tax return.

He states it is more simple than doing a personal tax return.

That means one would theoretically only need to find an auditor to sign off the accounts, which if records are perfectly presented, should be a tick-and-flick.

http://www.fusioninvesting.com/2009/08/preparing-your-own-self-managed-super-fund-smsf-tax-return/

quite informative, but probably not worth it to try and save the difference between $699 and the auditors fee.

addendum: I was having a closer look at this site, and realised the guy is an ASF poster!


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I find it interesting that your accountant can audit the books. I mean if fraud is taking place is it not likely that the accountant is a part of it or aware of it? Surely and audit demands a third party to 1. check the accountant and 2. the fund management? It seems such a basic thing to me that these functions should be separated! 

Yes the tax return should be simple enough contributions, dividends, interest & cap gains... but yeah you would prolly get stung for the audit so why bother. Paying for their insurance I suppose? Actually that begs the question how responsible is the auditor if there is an issue. I know an accountant can say well you signed it, not my problem!

Thanks for the link.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I believe I may have seen a publication or document that outlines the responsibility of the auditor, trustee and accountant/account preparer, an ATO publication maybe.

There has to be a seperation between the auditor and other parties.

As you can prepare your own accounts and lodge tax return, that means technically, only an independant auditor is needed (I think)

Presumably, auditors are qualified accountants. To my knowledge they are obliged to report any non-compilance with SIS regulation.

I guess their is plenty of potential for fraud, and that has been demonstrated by various early-release scams, especially in the migrant population


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



derty said:


> So your accountant setup your fund and does the tax audit for less then $560/annum? If so that a bloody good deal.



That's extremely cheap.  Do you have many transactions?  If not, then your accountant has to do minimal reconciliations and would just feed some basic material into his software.  But if you've done hundreds of trades I don't see how any accountant could reasonably do it for that amount.



awg said:


> One area which is grey,( to me anyway) is exactly what the auditor is required to do.
> 
> My personal accountant is adamant that every transaction, all dividends, SPP, rights issues, etc be individually accounted by him, and that would cost $.



There shouldn't be any grey area about the roles of the accountant and the auditor.   Unless there has been a rule change they have to be entirely separate.  The whole purpose of having the audit is to protect you, the client, from possible errors or shonkiness by the accountant.



awg said:


> Perhaps my memory is letting me down
> 
> For the absolute control freak, this site may be of interest.
> 
> Shows how one can do own setup and tax return.



I wouldn't dream of trying to do it myself, considering the heavy penalties by the ATO if the fund is not compliant for any reason.  The cost of having it done properly is just a very small % of the fund value.



Mr Z said:


> I find it interesting that your accountant can audit the books. I mean if fraud is taking place is it not likely that the accountant is a part of it or aware of it? Surely and audit demands a third party to 1. check the accountant and 2. the fund management? It seems such a basic thing to me that these functions should be separated!



By law, they must be separate.
My accountant of a few years ago had a great scam going on this, though it all looked quite OK.
She had a cosy arrangement going with her ex-employer who was located in another town, where she assured me she sent off all the records and her completed tax return for the audit.  However, one year - despite having all my paperwork etc in plenty of time - she didn't have the return completed prior to the lodgement date, and it *still had to be audited*.   It is (or certainly was then, illegal to lodge a non-audited SF return).  I raised hell and she said "oh we can lodge it on the due date anyway because all the auditor actually does is just sign the form I've sent him saying all is OK."!  

Apparently the auditor didn't actually even sight the work but received part of what I paid the accountant in reward for putting his signature to the page that says the audit has been properly completed.





> Yes the tax return should be simple enough contributions, dividends, interest & cap gains...



It's more complicated than that, especially if you have e.g. stapled securities where the two different components receive different tax treatment.  It would certainly not be something I'd feel confident to deal with.


----------



## derty

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Mr Z said:


> Edit: I don't know where you got 550 from? I was surprised it was that low! I see $699 on their site FWIW, is that wrong?



You said your accountant did it for 20% less than ESuper, $560 is $20% less than $699 

I thought ESuper was $600/year last year, I was surprised to see it has gone up to $699 this year.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

LOL... the 20% was a wet finger in the air estimation! But as it turns out was close....

Hey I am not knocking these guys... my main beef was pre GFC, I saw Mac Bank as a big potential problem and it told them so. They probably thought I was nuts but I reckon if there was no deposit guarantee they'd have been history.

They where muttering about using Commsec accounts back then which I moved to but they never got there so I was all too hard for them. No idea what they use now but you do have to do it their way, it is a sausage factory! 

That is another benefit if your accountant is reasonable, you can do what ever you want with accounts etc. As you funds grows that becomes more attractive.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> One area which is grey,( to me anyway) is exactly what the auditor is required to do.
> 
> My personal accountant is adamant that every transaction, all dividends, SPP, rights issues, etc be individually accounted by him, and that would cost $.
> 
> So I went with Esuper.
> 
> 1st year, all easy, electronic everything.
> 
> 2nd and subsequent years, I must submit physical copies of all the above, and reconcile them individually off my bank statement, which, while instilling neccesary record-keeping practices, does seem to somewhat defeat the purpose of electronic audit, as well as being a pita




I thought Esuperfund would pass on all the details to the editor,now you have me more worried.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

They are the auditor no? Should be automatic yes? What ever the setup is now I don't think you need to worry about them doing the job correctly, one thing am I sure of is that they are competent.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> I thought Esuperfund would pass on all the details to the editor,now you have me more worried.




Dont be alarmed.

Perhaps a clarification is in order.

Esuperfund auto reconciles your trades via commsec and anz v2, and has the audit completed on your (the trustees) behalf.

I am not certain the exact mechanism, but made sufficient enquiries to satisfy myself that they are in compliance with regulations 

You have to provide dividend statements and a few other things.

Apparently this has always been the case, my mistake.

In the instance of an SMSF, with accounts prepared by your local accountant, my understanding is that all your trades need to be reconciled by them "manually", as opposed to electronically, which is why they charge more.

On a slightly different note,

below are two websites that have some information on the auditing process, which might make things slightly clearer.

I havent read the ATO one, it is a pdf of auditors report

http://www.ato.gov.au/superfunds/content.asp?doc=/content/46218.htm


However the other link, is to an independant auditing outfit.

http://www.manageyoursuper.com.au/

If you follow their internal menu, you will see they charge $330, and the document list displays exactly what you need to provide for an audit, which is quite similar, but has more requirements, than what I submit.

As one of the blogger respondents said, SMSF are all covered by SIS regulations, and work by the same rules.

DYOR..I am not qualified to give advice, nor am I affiliated with anyone, but am a satisfied esuper client.

The main reason I am satisfied is that I have dropped my management fees from over 1% to less than 0.1% 

I always suggest that one should clarify all outstanding questions by calling or emailing the outfit concerned


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> In the instance of an SMSF, with accounts prepared by your local accountant, my understanding is that all your trades need to be reconciled by them "manually", as opposed to electronically, which is why they charge more.




Yes that is logical but not my experience so far, he is cheaper so I'm not going to press the issue! Having said that my fund does not trade that much so that is probably the main reason.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Mr Z said:


> Yes that is logical but not my experience so far, he is cheaper so I'm not going to press the issue! Having said that my fund does not trade that much so that is probably the main reason.




I dont get it. If u are not with Esuperfund ,why are you reading this forum . Not that I mind because its good to read the reviews from all. I found it because I am interested in perhaps using them.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> I dont get it. If u are not with Esuperfund ,why are you reading this forum .



That's a bit silly.  Most people who are interested in Super will read this thread.
The recent discussion has been to do with using an online organisation such as Esuperfund as distinct from using an accountant.  Without comments from those of us who use accountants, it wouldn't be much of a discussion.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> I dont get it. If u are not with Esuperfund ,why are you reading this forum . Not that I mind because its good to read the reviews from all. I found it because I am interested in perhaps using them.





Ex customer, I started with a reference and it went on from there.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Mr Z said:


> Ex customer, I started with a reference and it went on from there.




 Thanks .I was just interested .This is all new to me.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> Thanks .I was just interested .This is all new to me.




Any new customers with  Esuperfund .I am wondering how many have signed up this year and how are they finding it.


----------



## So_Cynical

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I have a question for  SMSF'ers

The fees paid to accountants/Esuperfund etc...how is that handled tax wise, is it deductible next year like the fee a tax agent charges for a personal return.?


----------



## cogs

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

myname 

I set up SMSF with eSuper this year, best decision this year so far. I only have a relatively small fund but with their fees, transparency and the personal interest I have in investing, I wish I made the move earlier.

The process took just over 4 months to complete so don't hold your breath on the application.

Paperwork/bookwork? Certainly no more than running a small business, actually not even comparable, it is as complicated as you make it.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



cogs said:


> myname
> 
> I set up SMSF with eSuper this year, best decision this year so far. I only have a relatively small fund but with their fees, transparency and the personal interest I have in investing, I wish I made the move earlier.
> 
> The process took just over 4 months to complete so don't hold your breath on the application.
> 
> Paperwork/bookwork? Certainly no more than running a small business, actually not even comparable, it is as complicated as you make it.



Thanks  That's great news and very encouraging


----------



## glenn_r

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



So_Cynical said:


> I have a question for  SMSF'ers
> 
> The fees paid to accountants/Esuperfund etc...how is that handled tax wise, is it deductible next year like the fee a tax agent charges for a personal return.?




I'm about half way through setting up our SMSF with eSuper and I  signed a bank debit authorisation as part of the application package that allows eSuper to withdraw $699 in January every year to pay their fee's ( first year is free), any costs in running your SMSF are tax deductible I believe.

Also they are about to release about 7 different choices of insurance companies on their site  or you can leave minimal funds in your existing super fund ($5K for MTAA) if you want to continue with their life / TPD insurance coverage.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



So_Cynical said:


> I have a question for  SMSF'ers
> 
> The fees paid to accountants/Esuperfund etc...how is that handled tax wise, is it deductible next year like the fee a tax agent charges for a personal return.?



Yes.


----------



## Judd

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Julia said:


> Yes.




Does Yes apply when an SMSF is a pension phase when it is supposedly "Tax free?"  That is if it is tax free what is there against which a tax deduction may be claimed.

And what is the situation for those over 60 years of age?

Just curious as I am not, for reasons of my own, have an SMSF.  Indeed once I turn 55 yo, all the super funds (whatever they may be) I will have at that stage will be withdrawn from that structure.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Judd said:


> Does Yes apply when an SMSF is a pension phase when it is supposedly "Tax free?"  That is if it is tax free what is there against which a tax deduction may be claimed.
> 
> And what is the situation for those over 60 years of age?
> 
> Just curious as I am not, for reasons of my own, have an SMSF.  Indeed once I turn 55 yo, all the super funds (whatever they may be) I will have at that stage will be withdrawn from that structure.




I would have to refer to my SMSF tax return to check the accounting, but because no tax is payable in pension phase, I cant see how a deduction can be claimed.

I am not 60, but dont claim the fee as a personal deduction, despite having taxable income.

I seem to remember this is something I clarified for myself previously, but now my memory is hazy, so I will check again to be sure, i would hate to be cheating myself of a legitimate deduction.

There is another fee as well, a flat ATO surcharge of $150 for any SMSF plus any ASIC fees if you have a Corporate Trustee.

In any case, lesser fees, whether deductible or not, beats higher costs either way.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Judd said:


> Does Yes apply when an SMSF is a pension phase when it is supposedly "Tax free?"  That is if it is tax free what is there against which a tax deduction may be claimed.



Just tough luck, Judd.  It's not like having franking credits where the ATO kindly send you a cheque if you don't need to use franking to offset tax payable.
However, let's not complain.  Paying no tax in the first place is quite nice.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> I would have to refer to my SMSF tax return to check the accounting, but because no tax is payable in pension phase, I cant see how a deduction can be claimed.
> 
> I am not 60, but dont claim the fee as a personal deduction, despite having taxable income.
> 
> I seem to remember this is something I clarified for myself previously, but now my memory is hazy, so I will check again to be sure, i would hate to be cheating myself of a legitimate deduction.
> 
> There is another fee as well, a flat ATO surcharge of $150 for any SMSF plus any ASIC fees if you have a Corporate Trustee.
> 
> In any case, lesser fees, whether deductible or not, beats higher costs either way.




Have you checked yet? I would think that if the SMSF pays tax ,any fees would be tax deductible for the super fund not personal income tax


----------



## 123enen

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

A question for those of you on esuper.

I understand they allow you to trade via Comsec BUT settle via a mandatory third party ANZ account.

Given that, which Comsec trade execution rates apply.

For example, 

Comsec internet preferred rates are $19.95 up to $10,000 transaction value $29.95 (up to $25,000)
0.12% (above $25,000)

Their regular non preferred rates are 
$29.95 up to $10,000 transaction value 0.31% (above $10,000) 

And the scary one is:
Trades requiring settlement through a third party $99.95 up to $15,000 transaction value 0.66% (above $15,000)


----------



## robusta

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



123enen said:


> A question for those of you on esuper.
> 
> I understand they allow you to trade via Comsec BUT settle via a mandatory third party ANZ account.
> 
> Given that, which Comsec trade execution rates apply.
> 
> For example,
> 
> Comsec internet preferred rates are $19.95 up to $10,000 transaction value $29.95 (up to $25,000)
> 0.12% (above $25,000)
> 
> Their regular non preferred rates are
> $29.95 up to $10,000 transaction value 0.31% (above $10,000)
> 
> And the scary one is:
> Trades requiring settlement through a third party $99.95 up to $15,000 transaction value 0.66% (above $15,000)




$29.95 per trade. I am very happy with Esuper - not sure how economial it would be if day trading but for long term investing


----------



## gooner

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

http://www.esuperfund.com.au/shares/shares/brokerage.aspx

$29.95 up to $25k and 0.12% of trade value over $25k. I don't transact much on my SMSF so suits me fine


----------



## 123enen

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Thanks all.
I don't intend to trade much at all on Super so that pricing will suit me as well.

Another client ready to sign. That was one of my last questions.


----------



## mrsmiffy

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Another way Esuperfund make their money is by commissions from banks etc.
E.G if you use esuperfunds service for term deposits. ING will pay Esuperfund .1% commission for being the agent and arranging the term deposits. This has no effect on your interest rate or your own .1% loyalty bonus for re-investing term deposits.  An excellent service by esuperfund, my audit and tax return have been finalised for the year, all good, no tax. Interest rolling in. Commsec is fine for the amount of trades I do. Linked ANZ account works well too.
Satisfied Esuperfund customer.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



mrsmiffy said:


> ........
> Satisfied Esuperfund customer.




I have now left eSuperfund for a much more costly option but I was always satisfied with the way they did business - including their commissions which some get concerned about.  For me it was only the lack of options.  eg

1.  Bank account.  When the market is performing poorly most of my money is in cash.  The required bank account was paying up to 2% less than that elsewhere - which adds up in a hurry.  Even other ANZ accounts were paying more!
2.  Broker.  I'm not a very short term trader but often enough that $29.95 starts to hurt.  Add $15 for a conditional order (which I use for stop loss) and it bites harder.
3.  Markets.  Foreign shares are excluded.  I also trade the US exchanges mainly for diversity - and to some extent stability.

I'm now paying around $2000 instead of $600 but my fund is better off - at present mainly due to better interest rates.  

I do believe that for a fund with mainly term deposits and managed funds eSuperfund is a bargain.

Cheers ....... Alan


----------



## sails

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> I have now left eSuperfund for a much more costly option but I was always satisfied with the way they did business - including their commissions which some get concerned about.  For me it was only the lack of options.  eg
> 
> 1.  Bank account.  When the market is performing poorly most of my money is in cash.  The required bank account was paying up to 2% less than that elsewhere - which adds up in a hurry.  Even other ANZ accounts were paying more!
> 2.  Broker.  I'm not a very short term trader but often enough that $29.95 starts to hurt.  Add $15 for a conditional order (which I use for stop loss) and it bites harder.
> 3.  Markets.  Foreign shares are excluded.  I also trade the US exchanges mainly for diversity - and to some extent stability.
> 
> I'm now paying around $2000 instead of $600 but my fund is better off - at present mainly due to better interest rates.
> 
> I do believe that for a fund with mainly term deposits and managed funds eSuperfund is a bargain.
> 
> Cheers ....... Alan




titl4,  I thought one could move the funds to another bank account but you can't trade with any funds that are in an account other than eSuperfund's designated account.

I agree with your comments on Commsec, it is a real put off...lol.  And not just the high fees.  I wish there was a bit more freedom with brokers.


----------



## KurwaJegoMac

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



sails said:


> titl4,  I thought one could move the funds to another bank account but you can't trade with any funds that are in an account other than eSuperfund's designated account.
> 
> I agree with your comments on Commsec, it is a real put off...lol.  And not just the high fees.  I wish there was a bit more freedom with brokers.




This is correct - you can set up and link an online savings account if you want a high interest online account for when you're holding cash.

The ANZ V2 account is for eSuperfund to recoup fees and for transferring cash to and from your Commsec account.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



KurwaJegoMac said:


> This is correct - you can set up and link an online savings account if you want a high interest online account for when you're holding cash.
> 
> The ANZ V2 account is for eSuperfund to recoup fees and for transferring cash to and from your Commsec account.




That must have changed as at the time I queried that but was advised that it wasn't permitted as they would not receive the transactions electronically.  It might have changed my decision to move.

I'm still happy with the decision as the broker and exchange freedom is worth it but it was the bank account that guaranteed the economics.

BTW - eSuperfund did advise that they were considering a broker option but it wouldn't be soon.

Cheers ........ Alan


----------



## KurwaJegoMac

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> That must have changed as at the time I queried that but was advised that it wasn't permitted as they would not receive the transactions electronically.  It might have changed my decision to move.
> 
> I'm still happy with the decision as the broker and exchange freedom is worth it but it was the bank account that guaranteed the economics.
> 
> BTW - eSuperfund did advise that they were considering a broker option but it wouldn't be soon.
> 
> Cheers ........ Alan




Fair enough. Just to clarify though - you can't pick what Online account, it has to be one of their partner accounts which is ING I believe.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



KurwaJegoMac said:


> This is correct - you can set up and link an online savings account if you want a high interest online account for when you're holding cash.
> 
> The ANZ V2 account is for eSuperfund to recoup fees and for transferring cash to and from your Commsec account.




A few observations.

You can setup a high interest account with any financial institution (as far as I am aware) to recieve a better rate of interest than V2.

You supply these details manually at audit time.


Several drawbacks

1) Nearly all, if not all of these "high interest accounts" have a bonus interest clause, meaning you only get the high rate if you dont transfer any funds to your V2 account..ie to settle a trade.

2) Most have a "introductory" rate...then drop you back

3) If you have a Corporate Trustee, the process is a hassle

4) xtra work for you at audit time.

OK if you want a huge amount in on call cash, but I personally got so sick of this lazy money, and the fact that the banks were effectively stealing out of my pocket, that I decided to put most of my cash component into preference shares, which was a profitable decision.

In respect of trading frequency and costs, it suits me because I normally dont trade a great deal, but having day-traded profitably can say that the commssions are too high via Comsec at the non-preferred rate to justify that form of  trading, and that if you are a sophisticated and high Nett wealth investor, who wishes to actively utilise leveraged instruments and OS , low cost and high frequency brokerage, imo, and having discussed this with others, it would be ultimately better for you to utilise a more flexible arrangement, even though it would cost much more in super fees.

The idea is that you would make vastly more utilising leverage, trading nous, and savings on commission than the piddling $3000 or so extra in audit fees

Do your own calculations


----------



## glenn_r

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Question for the ex- esuperfund users , did esuperfund charge you anything when you left them?

I have recently started our SMSF with them, there was no startup fee and the first years audit is free with a charge of $699 p/a for the second year on.


----------



## KurwaJegoMac

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Quite right AWG. In my case im fairly young with a low net worth (in super) so esuperfund makes sense for me until i can build it up a little ovr the years. Ive crunched numbes as you say, and I have had chats with accountants for a better service - will definitely switch once my super balance has grown some more. It's definitely well worth it!


----------



## pma99

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

G'day all

I have a SMSF that was set up and is administered through my accountant. Since I don't use any "full service" features I am considering switching to esuperfunds as a cheaper alternative. Thanks to all who have asked and replied on this thread - very informative reading.

For those interested, the following site gives a comparison of companies that set up and administer SMSF's - according to this site, esuperfund is still cheapest.

http://www.thesmsfreview.com.au/comparison-table-smsf.html

Note, this is not a plug for esuperfund just a site that I thought may be of interest to others.

Thanks again

Paul


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



pma99 said:


> G'day all
> 
> I have a SMSF that was set up and is administered through my accountant. Since I don't use any "full service" features I am considering switching to esuperfunds as a cheaper alternative.



Hello Paul, can you explain what you see as 'full service features"?


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



glenn_r said:


> Question for the ex- esuperfund users , did esuperfund charge you anything when you left them?...........




No, there was no cost involved except time.  It took months of hassling and then seemingly a reluctance to pass on essential data to the 'new' accountant. I suspect the problem was more related to a lack of admin time rather than being difficult but the end result was to sour what had been a good experience.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> .........
> OK if you want a huge amount in on call cash, but I personally got so sick of this lazy money, and the fact that the banks were effectively stealing out of my pocket, that I decided to put most of my cash component into preference shares, which was a profitable decision.............




I think it was probably me who brought up the cash element originally.  It wasn't mainly the 'long term' cash component that was the issue for me.  It was my preference to go to cash whenever the markets are under-performing - like recently  .  In those circumstances anything up to 100% of my 'equities' component is in cash for a few months or longer.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> ...........The idea is that you would make vastly more utilising leverage, trading nous, and savings on commission than the piddling $3000 or so extra in audit fees ...............




'Leverage' unfortunately being made harder than it needs to be by the ATO's position on margin accounts - while allowing CFD's


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> I think it was probably me who brought up the cash element originally.  It wasn't mainly the 'long term' cash component that was the issue for me.  It was my preference to go to cash whenever the markets are under-performing - like recently  .  In those circumstances anything up to 100% of my 'equities' component is in cash for a few months or longer.




It has been a bee in my bonnet to, especially due to my corporate trustee status, many financial institutions wont give me favorable rates on my cash.

(Including ANZ)

At some points in time during the GFC, I had a high 6 figure sum in cash. 

Can you imagine my frustration, nay rage, at being denied up to an extra 2% interest on this amount, on purely administrative grounds.

I resolved that I refused to accept this, and what I did is open a revolving door of cash accounts and transfer when they drop the rate from over 6% to about 4.5%.

Because this was time consuming and annoying, I decided it was easier and more profitable to allocate more of that cash into hybrids, takes 5 seconds to hit the buy/sell button, $30, and coupon rates of 8 to 10% are readily available.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> It has been a bee in my bonnet to, especially due to my corporate trustee status, many financial institutions wont give me favorable rates on my cash.
> 
> (Including ANZ)
> 
> At some points in time during the GFC, I had a high 6 figure sum in cash.
> 
> Can you imagine my frustration, nay rage, at being denied up to an extra 2% interest on this amount, on purely administrative grounds.
> 
> I resolved that I refused to accept this, and what I did is open a revolving door of cash accounts and transfer when they drop the rate from over 6% to about 4.5%.
> 
> Because this was time consuming and annoying, I decided it was easier and more profitable to allocate more of that cash into hybrids, takes 5 seconds to hit the buy/sell button, $30, and coupon rates of 8 to 10% are readily available.




Could you please explain what you mean by hybrids. thanks in advance


----------



## So_Cynical

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> Could you please explain what you mean by hybrids. thanks in advance




See this thread 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15124

And here's a list from Macquarie...ASX Listed Floating Rate / Income Securities

http://www.macquarie.com.au/macsecmc/codi/CodiServlet?nav=start&documenttosend=income_security_doc


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I've only come across esuperfund last week and still researching whether SMSF is the right thing for me to do. I do have a current share portfolio and feel my knowledge of the sharemarket and current research will be of great assistance in managing my fund effectively. I also subscribe to online financial advise.
I have spoken to my accountant(who does not do SMSF) and he is basicly saying the "General advice warning" disclaimer recommending  professional financial advice from a financial advisor is something to be wary of.
I have been in the sharemarket for 3 years now and considering the minimal difference between the CGT for investments held for less than 12 or more than 12 months, Would be trading  conservatively(in and out of the market).
A few of questions I have

1) Anyone with a personal share portfolio ; did you receive financial advice prior to setting up your SMSF with Esuperfund?

2) For anyone with an existing share portfolio, how much extra time do you use  monitoring/investing in your SMSF?
3) I would diversify some of the funds into a term deposit, and on another thread it has been mentioned interest rates for corporate trustees are less than that of personal rates. Esuperfund is setup with rates for different institutions and am wondering  if the rates indicated are also  not applicable to corporate trustee accounts? I can email this question but if someone has personal experience replies are appreciated.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Without wishing to oversimplify the situation, I'd say if you're already managing your own share p/f plus cash investments, then moving all this into your own SMSF is simply a way to save tax, that is if you're on more than a 15% tax rate which I suppose you are.

You don't say if you already have Super in a publicly managed fund which you would intend to move into a SMSF.  If you do this, then obviously you will be saving on fees charged.

I've never used Esuperfund but their charges seem to be very reasonable.
Personally, I prefer to pay a bit more and use my own accountant so I have ongoing access to various bits of personal advice.

How long do you need to spend to monitor investments?  Depends entirely on the approach you take.  No more and no less than if you were managing your own investments outside of Super imo.


----------



## Mr Z

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I will never move 1c more than I have to into Super. It is a pile of money under government legislative control and sooner or later they will compromise it somehow. I don't trust it to be there when I retire...FWIW I'm building income outside of Super so that I will never need Super.

Call me cynical... call me stupid... but...


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

I maintain share portfolios both within a SMSF and outside of the fund.  I did use eSuperfund for a few years and was satisfied with their standard of service.  I have since moved the fund from them only because I wanted more flexibility with bank, broker, and the ability to trade foreign shares. To answer your questions:

"1) Anyone with a personal share portfolio ; did you receive financial advice prior to setting up your SMSF with Esuperfund?"  No - at least not from a 'professional' advisor 

"2) For anyone with an existing share portfolio, how much extra time do you use  monitoring/investing in your SMSF?"  As I maintain portfolios both in & out of super I obviously have 2 sets of records as total separation is necessary and that does take extra time.  The required  'minutes' detailing every trustee decision add a small time overhead - the number depending largely on how often you trade or move money. Trading research and selections take little extra time for additional portfolios (just different selection criteria).

"3) I would diversify some of the funds into a term deposit, and on another thread it has been mentioned interest rates for corporate trustees are less than that of personal rates..........".  That's not universal.  Many institutions don't differentiate.  

Cheers ......... Alan


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Thanks for the reply Julia,
Yes I do have funds in a public fund which I intend to move across into Esuperfund. The transfer amount is less than 100k,hence my thoughts on using Esuperfund.
As I say, my accountant is talking to me in a responsible and conservative way,(which I respect), and he has indicated that a diversified fund is required to maintain minimal risk. He also indicates the ATO is cracking down on SMSF's ,but from what I understand, at this stage it is more to do with the rich folk using the SMSF as a tax break for personal use ie things like buying a painting and then hanging it on your wall.
I do have some capital losses as a result fo the GFC in 07/08 so would maintain my portfolio at this stage,for those losses to eventually be wriiten off.
One thing I don't like is the lower rates for deposits if you are operating as a corprate trustee!
Any further comments welcome


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Mr Z,
Thanks, I have some time to go before retirement, and agree with your thoughts.

Alan ,
Thanks , some further Q's if I may
 )May I ask how much diversification you had with your SMSF. 
2)Does the ATO expect certain criteria to be adhered to?
3)What type of minutes are required to maintain the SMSF appropriately, u mean buy/sell of shares etc?
4) Esuperfund has links to term deposits from institutions they have a deal with, I will pop off an email to see if the rates apply to funds with a corporate trustee.

Thanks again


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



qwikbuk said:


> ..............
> Alan ,
> Thanks , some further Q's if I may
> Thanks again




")May I ask how much diversification you had with your SMSF. " 
ASX shares, managed funds, term deposits while with eSuperfund.  I have since added US shares and more freedom with banking and broker options.

"2)Does the ATO expect certain criteria to be adhered to?"
Yes.  I'd suggest having a good look at the responsibilities of trustees before starting a SMSF.  The ATO site is a good place to look but other websites (including eSuperfund) have information on this.

"3)What type of minutes are required to maintain the SMSF appropriately, u mean buy/sell of shares etc?"

Every decision by the trustees.  Buy/sell shares, TD's, managed funds, new accounts and also forward planning and strategy etc.  Its not that hard but must be done.

"4) Esuperfund has links to term deposits from institutions they have a deal with"  
That's new since I was with them.  In my experience their 'preferred' accounts were not usually the best option for our fund financially (eg required bank & broker) but that disadvantage may be offset by eSuperfund's low fees.

In the end its your decision if you want the financial control of having your own fund and the workload / responsibility involved.  Then, if you do, are you happy - at least for a few years - with the restrictions imposed by 'administrators' such as eSuperfund which simplify their task and provide commissions to supplement the basic fee.

Cheers ....... Alan


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Great replies Alan,

Things are a bit clearer now. Esuperfund currently has an offer for free setup. It expires today , but I am going to forgo rushing into things until I am fully comfortable with my decision.

Cheers and thanks again


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> "2)Does the ATO expect certain criteria to be adhered to?"
> Yes.  I'd suggest having a good look at the responsibilities of trustees before starting a SMSF.



Agree.



> "3)What type of minutes are required to maintain the SMSF appropriately, u mean buy/sell of shares etc?"
> 
> Every decision by the trustees.  Buy/sell shares, TD's, managed funds, new accounts and also forward planning and strategy etc.  Its not that hard but must be done.



I admire your thoroughness, but it's not necessary to make a minute every time you make a trade.  I have never done this and don't know anyone who does.

I just have a pretty broad Investment Strategy document which says the Fund will be invested variously from time to time in accordance with market conditions.  So if, e.g. I sell everything in order to protect capital (a specific intention noted in the Investment Strategy) during a significant market downturn, I just do it:  don't do a minute about it.

Have had the fund for many years and no accountant or auditor has ever suggested it's necessary to do minutes for every trade.  

Re the ATO 'cracking down' on SMSF's, I'd agree with the interpretation that it's related to the inappropriate use of the funds.

Much is made of how much work is involved in running your own fund.  I don't find it so at all, but - as above - I don't go out of my way to make work that's not necessary.

Sure, you'll spend time thinking and communicating about market related stuff but you'd do that anyway if the investments were held outside of Super.
It's simply a tax-advantaged vehicle in which to hold assets, not an asset itself.

And I agree with those who have concerns about government getting their sticky fingers all over Super one day.  Already there is discussion about retirees being forced to put some of their saved funds into compulsory income streams.  Now while that might be a good idea if it's well run, you sure as hell don't want the government telling you what to do with your own money!


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Thanks Julia,

appreciated. The website for Esuperfund indicates free setup which has no set date

http://www.esuperfund.com.au/howitworks.aspx

but there main page indicates offer till 15th Nov 2010
.
Either way I will be investigating responsibilities of a SMSF fund operating under a company with myself as a trustee and also a few other things before jumping in.
At this point and time I am still leaning towards SMSF .

Cheers and thanks again


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

One other thing to be aware of is to understand any implications of your Trust Deed when setting up the Fund.  Some can affect your estate planning.
Probably a good idea to run it by your solicitor to make sure the verbose and legalistic wording actually says what you need it to.

I don't know, but I'd guess Esuperfund would have a pretty simple, 'one size fits all' Deed, and if you have some specific circumstances you need to consider, checking this carefully would be a good idea.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



titl4 said:


> ")
> 
> "3)What type of minutes are required to maintain the SMSF appropriately, u mean buy/sell of shares etc?"
> 
> Every decision by the trustees.  Buy/sell shares, TD's, managed funds, new accounts and also forward planning and strategy etc.  Its not that hard but must be done.





I cant agree with this statement. ( sorry)

I certainly do not formally minute the reasons for my share buy/sells

My Esuper trust deed and the "sole purpose" test cover my investment decisions imo.

The exceptions are if I was to make an investment that represented a high proportion of my investment, "unusual" strategy, or was not crystal clear, or admin reasons.

I have done some research on this and talked to specialists

The answer I get varies from minute everything to what I do

Provided ones investments are within the Trust Deed, performing at or above benchmark, imo, no-one can say a word, as the sole pupose test is met.

Disclosure..as I have noted, I recieved various answers from highly qualified people, I am not qualified

( It probably isnt a bad thing to note why you buy and sell  a share every time, as it clarifies your thinking about what you are doing, and helps review trade performance, also as you mentioned foward strategy)

Is " I gonna make some #$%^ money" a well-reasoned enough minute ?


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Thanks again,

My knowledge of the trust deed is somewhat lacking, therefore will look into in further detail.


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Thanks again,

My knowledge of the trust deed is somewhat lacking, therefore will look into in further detail.


----------



## Temjin

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Have been looking into this for my parents. It seem after 3 years, esuperfund has still yet to include IB as one of their alternative share trading broker. But I'm not surprised since the referral fee / commission from Comsec/Etrade would have been much higher than what IB can offer. 

Has anyone looked into an alternative to esuperfund that allows the use of IB? Basically, the next cheapest SMSF broker that does this.

Thanks and cheers!


----------



## qwikbuk

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Overlapping a bit here temjin but wanted to say as a matter of interest that I emailed Esuperfund in relation to their advertised term deposit rates and they apply to all Esuperfund SMSF's irrespective of how the trustee is set up.


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

This document from the ATO refers to some of the issues being discussed:

http://tinyurl.com/34mherm

We will all of course assess the importance of the various information items included in it from our own perspective.  For me its just easier to comply even though I agree that some of what I do seems over-kill.  Then again, I've been to an ATO audit interview  .

Cheers ....... Alan


----------



## Julia

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Temjin said:


> Have been looking into this for my parents. It seem after 3 years, esuperfund has still yet to include IB as one of their alternative share trading broker. But I'm not surprised since the referral fee / commission from Comsec/Etrade would have been much higher than what IB can offer.
> 
> Has anyone looked into an alternative to esuperfund that allows the use of IB? Basically, the next cheapest SMSF broker that does this.
> 
> Thanks and cheers!



Temjin, as far as I know (and someone will correct me if I'm wrong) if you set up a SMSF you can choose whatever broker you wish.  

If you choose to save a few dollars a year and go with e.g. Esuperfund, then it seems fairly reasonable to me that you should have to go with the brokers they offer, plus accept the bank a/c's which are acceptable to them.
The reason they can offer cut price fees for the management is, presumably, because they don't have to stuff about doing individually prepared tax statements incorporating different broker formats, different banks.

I'd much rather pay a bit more and have the flexibility to use whomever I choose, plus enjoy the added benefit of day to day advice from my accountant when I need it.

I only pay around $2000 p.a. for all accountant fees including audit which is done in a separate city.  This includes ongoing advice and having the accountant prepare the annual minutes at the time of the tax return.
Even just having this latter done for me is worth a fair bit in terms of less for me to do.

A principle I find completely unacceptable is where super management firms charge clients on a % of funds under management basis.   It should be on the amount of work involved, not whether an individual trade is $20,000 rather than $100,000.


----------



## awg

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

response without multiqoutes sorry

With regard the Trustee Responsibilities, agree the ATO publication is the bible,
I see page 28 could be interpreted very strictly.

My response would be if any Govt official wants a fight on that issue, I feel sure that I would be ultimately to be found to be in compliance.

The issue being persons found in non-compliance could lose their tax status, but commonsense and natural justice dictate, that those penalties are applied for a misuse of the system only.



With regard to the rates for Term Deposits being the same rate for Corporate vs Personal Trustee, whilst I am pleased to see this, ( sometime ago I copied an email to Esuper about the frustrations of discrimination against Corporate Trustee accounts)

Cash Accounts still present a problem, and as the best of them is paying Term dep rates, with rates on the rise, more relevant to me.



Thirdly, as I posted some links on another thread, their is nothing to stop anyone setting up their own SMSF, appointing an Accountant and Auditor, and away you go, similar cost to Esuper, no restrictions, but a lot of work and admin


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> response without multiqoutes sorry
> 
> With regard the Trustee Responsibilities, agree the ATO publication is the bible,
> I see page 28 could be interpreted very strictly.
> 
> My response would be if any Govt official wants a fight on that issue, I feel sure that I would be ultimately to be found to be in compliance.
> 
> The issue being persons found in non-compliance could lose their tax status, but commonsense and natural justice dictate, that those penalties are applied for a misuse of the system only.............................




I agree.  For me its not hard to knock out proforma minutes and file them and, just maybe, avoid a hassle in the future - but accept that in all likelihood its wasted effort.

Cheers ........ Alan


----------



## titl4

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



awg said:


> .............. Thirdly, as I posted some links on another thread, their is nothing to stop anyone setting up their own SMSF, appointing an Accountant and Auditor, and away you go, similar cost to Esuper, no restrictions, but a lot of work and admin




Or, for that matter, buying some software and doing the accounting part as well.  Too much hassle for me.  Its $2000 PA well spent. 
I used to be with eSuperfund and consider they provide great value for money.  The limitations wouldn't affect a significant proportion of the trustees running SMSF's.
Cheers ....... Alan


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



qwikbuk said:


> Great replies Alan,
> 
> Things are a bit clearer now. Esuperfund currently has an offer for free setup. It expires today , but I am going to forgo rushing into things until I am fully comfortable with my decision.
> 
> Cheers and thanks again




Dont worry about the expiry date,it changes every month. I am now with Esuperfund and so far I have found them very reliable and always reply to my email within 24 hours max. Any documents they require always have a self addressed envelope , what else would we want.I have also banked outside their recommended banks with their consent. Go for it. I am looking forward to the over 60 pension where all earnings in the smsf are tax free and no capital gains tax. Will not be too long for me.


----------



## Ben L

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Hello, I hope someone can tell me...

Esuperfund says you can invest in physical metals and cash..

so I would like to invest in gold and silver.. so do I simply withdraw money from the ANZ account to purchase these assets...and how do I report these assets? same applies for foreign exchange?

Thank you


----------



## Ben L

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*

Anyone use E-broking, from E-Superfund? $19.95 per trade upto $9999.


----------



## myname

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Ben L said:


> Anyone use E-broking, from E-Superfund? $19.95 per trade upto $9999.




The deal with Esuperfund is that you must use Comsec for trading.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



myname said:


> The deal with Esuperfund is that you must use Comsec for trading.




Pretty sure they provide both as an option?


----------



## Sir Burr

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Starcraftmazter said:


> Pretty sure they provide both as an option?




I'm just looking at signing up too and eBroking is definitely is an option besides Comsec.

Although, eBroking uses CMC Markets to place trades.
Think I'll stick with Comsec.


----------



## bv2726

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Sir Burr said:


> I'm just looking at signing up too and eBroking is definitely is an option besides Comsec.
> 
> Although, eBroking uses CMC Markets to place trades.
> Think I'll stick with Comsec.




Any particular reason for sticking with Comsec? Just a personal preference? Or do you think that CMC Markets are not a good choice?


----------



## Sir Burr

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



bv2726 said:


> Any particular reason for sticking with Comsec? Just a personal preference? Or do you think that CMC Markets are not a good choice?




Probably both but after saying that above I ended up with eBroking 

The benefits of eBroking sounded good over Comsec and it is possible to change to Comsec later if I change my mind. I like that they use Bankwest for their settlement account.


----------



## James W

AXA North is a pretty good alternative to SMSF's if the compliance and regulations are daunting. 

It is smiliar to a wrap account except there is no limits to asset allocation. 

There is no deed, or investment strategy, but all the benefits of superannuation account. 

Its main feature is the "guarantee" returns component, however this can be turned off, which is good becasue i dont rate the guarantee at all as it costs a fortune to have. 

Not sure what range of brokers are available, probably all the big full service ones.


----------



## tomasf

*Re: Esuperfunds SMSF brokers*



Sir Burr said:


> Probably both but after saying that above I ended up with eBroking
> 
> The benefits of eBroking sounded good over Comsec and it is possible to change to Comsec later if I change my mind. I like that they use Bankwest for their settlement account.



The Bankwest PDS [EBROKING_settlement_account.sflb.pdf] has this paragraph which i don't understand...

_4. COMMISSION
The Bank pays your Broker commission on your Cash Account. The amount of commission payable to your Broker will vary according to the daily closing balance of your account but will not exceed 5.00% of the funds invested._

So is the 5% commission deducted from your money? Does the "funds invested" mean money lying around in the settlement account?  Does it refer to money going in/out?
Also the credit interest is 0.01% pa for less than $10,000, ie $1 interest. Anyone had any experience with them?  
Thanks, Tom


----------



## Pager

Posted this on the Chartist site as well, but for any esuper clients who may not be aware or those looking to run a SMSF.

Things have changed and not only can esuperfund clients use IB now but they can also trade futures.

http://www.esuperfund.com.au/investments/allowed_copy1.aspx

ESUPERFUND clients can invest in Futures through our Optional Brokers namely Halifax Brokers or Interactive Brokers. 

IB Rates are a little higher than there atandard rates but still very low, the Spi for example is usually $5 per side but using esuperfund its $7.

http://www.esuperfund.com.au/shares/OptionalBrokers/IBBrokers/Brokerage.aspx


----------



## aarbee

Thanks for posting this. 
I would have thought that ESuperfund would have emailed this kind of info to their clients.
I was about to shift away from ES in order to be able to trade with Interactive Brokers. 
Will open an IB account for the SMSF straightaway. 
Thanks again.

Cheers


----------



## dclayw

Some of esuperfund documentation says FX can only be traded via CFDs through CMC Markets.

Now that IB is onboard I assume trading spot FX is allowed? The brokerage is listed at 0.4 pips but it doesn't say anything about trade size.

Anyone trading spot FX through esuperfund?


----------



## moliver

I joined esuperfund in november last year. I received my first financial reports and had some queries like relating to the member statements and financial statements.

Rather than helping me to understand, or better still explain how they come to these weird numbers (like a fund worth $102765 + a tax refund of $137 somehow equates to a member benefit of $101,563), they refused to help and suggested I go to an accountant for information.

They seem to forget that they are providing a service for Self Managed funds and think that everyone needs or should have expert financial knowledge. What do they expect when they get into a market aimed at inexperienced managers.

I f I have to go to an accountant to have the financial statements explained to me, then what is the point of using these people?

If you don't have any need for their help, they might be ok, but if you are a complete novice when it comes to financials, I suggest (highly recommend) that you stay well clear of this mob.


----------



## CAFA1234

moliver said:


> I joined esuperfund in november last year. I received my first financial reports and had some queries like relating to the member statements and financial statements.
> 
> Rather than helping me to understand, or better still explain how they come to these weird numbers (like a fund worth $102765 + a tax refund of $137 somehow equates to a member benefit of $101,563), they refused to help and suggested I go to an accountant for information.
> 
> They seem to forget that they are providing a service for Self Managed funds and think that everyone needs or should have expert financial knowledge. What do they expect when they get into a market aimed at inexperienced managers.
> 
> I f I have to go to an accountant to have the financial statements explained to me, then what is the point of using these people?
> 
> If you don't have any need for their help, they might be ok, but if you are a complete novice when it comes to financials, I suggest (highly recommend) that you stay well clear of this mob.




Oh dear oh dear! OK so this is the deal ... you get your SMSF audited by a low cost provider (in fact the lowest in the industry as I see it), and now you have question about the accounting standard used and how various numbers are arrived at.

I feel for you - every time I get my company account from my accountant, or I look at the account for a public company EOY report, I start to get a headache. The fact is if you want an explanation then you have a few options, 


do your own research and educate yourself in Aussie accounting standards, 
pay your accountant to sit with you and try and explain, although there will be a good chance you don't get it, 
call a friend and get some free help, 
change providers for next year (costly experience my friend) or 
just accept the numbers are correct. 


ESuper are not going to get involved with your, and 99% of people) lack of expert knowledge for the standards - they would never get any work done. And nor would any other provider unless they were charging thousands per year to cover the ad hoc advice client want.

If you want to screen copy the page with these numbers and post them I'm sure we can offer guidance.

Cheers


----------



## sydboy007

moliver said:


> I joined esuperfund in november last year. I received my first financial reports and had some queries like relating to the member statements and financial statements.
> 
> Rather than helping me to understand, or better still explain how they come to these weird numbers (like a fund worth $102765 + a tax refund of $137 somehow equates to a member benefit of $101,563), they refused to help and suggested I go to an accountant for information.
> 
> They seem to forget that they are providing a service for Self Managed funds and think that everyone needs or should have expert financial knowledge. What do they expect when they get into a market aimed at inexperienced managers.
> 
> I f I have to go to an accountant to have the financial statements explained to me, then what is the point of using these people?
> 
> If you don't have any need for their help, they might be ok, but if you are a complete novice when it comes to financials, I suggest (highly recommend) that you stay well clear of this mob.




When I was in industry funds the member benefit was always lower than the balance due to whatever fees were to be charged to pay the benefit.

You've gone for the tiger airlines of the SMSF administration companies.

I've kept a spreadsheet to tally up where I should be.  I have an estimate of what my tax bill will be for last FY.  As long as esuperfund come in fairly closely to that I'll be happy.

At the end of the day they're doing an audit and as long as the ATO are happy with it then I'm not going to be too worried about the exact figures.  I just want a complying super fund and when you compare esuperfunds pricing to pretty much the rest of the market you quickly realise why you picked them.


----------



## moliver

sydboy007 said:


> When I was in industry funds the member benefit was always lower than the balance due to whatever fees were to be charged to pay the benefit.
> 
> You've gone for the tiger airlines of the SMSF administration companies.
> 
> I've kept a spreadsheet to tally up where I should be.  I have an estimate of what my tax bill will be for last FY.  As long as esuperfund come in fairly closely to that I'll be happy.
> 
> At the end of the day they're doing an audit and as long as the ATO are happy with it then I'm not going to be too worried about the exact figures.  I just want a complying super fund and when you compare esuperfunds pricing to pretty much the rest of the market you quickly realise why you picked them.




It wasn't that I didn't trust their figures.  I just wanted to know, in simple terms, how they got to some of the figures.

I had a perception of what the tax rate was for super funds (15%) and it looked like the tax was higher according to the member statements, and that was what was causing me some concern.

Good news is they did eventually provide some information which cleared things up for me.

I realise they are the "Tiger Airlines" of SMSF providers, but do think they need to consider who uses their services and what their level of experience or knowledge might be.  It is my first time with SMSF and any financial reporting - I just don't know what I don't know!

As a Trustee, I have to satisfy myself all documents and accounts are ok. If there is something that I don't understand, surely it's ok for me to ask questions?

So, now my issues with the reports have been cleared up, I can thoroughly recommend eSuperfund.  It is easy to setup, simple to operate and cost effective.  And their support is generally very good.


----------



## moliver

CAFA1234 said:


> Oh dear oh dear! OK so this is the deal ... you get your SMSF audited by a low cost provider (in fact the lowest in the industry as I see it), and now you have question about the accounting standard used and how various numbers are arrived at.
> 
> I feel for you - every time I get my company account from my accountant, or I look at the account for a public company EOY report, I start to get a headache. The fact is if you want an explanation then you have a few options,
> 
> 
> do your own research and educate yourself in Aussie accounting standards,
> pay your accountant to sit with you and try and explain, although there will be a good chance you don't get it,
> call a friend and get some free help,
> change providers for next year (costly experience my friend) or
> just accept the numbers are correct.
> 
> 
> ESuper are not going to get involved with your, and 99% of people) lack of expert knowledge for the standards - they would never get any work done. And nor would any other provider unless they were charging thousands per year to cover the ad hoc advice client want.
> 
> If you want to screen copy the page with these numbers and post them I'm sure we can offer guidance.
> 
> Cheers




Good news!  eSuperfund did eventually provide me with some information, so I can go back to recommending them again.

Now that I know what I don't know with respect to Financial reporting and self managed super funds, I can do as you suggest and educate myself.  I will also be doing what you suggest and just accept the numbers, without question - just as a good Trustee should!


----------



## Bill M

*To present members of Esuperfund*

I am thinking of joining Esuperfund and I have read this thread but a lot of comments date back to 2007 when the thread was first started.

I will get straight to the point. I kindly ask if present members could give their evaluation of Esuperfund. I know a lot of you are busy so even if you write "very happy" or "it's ok" or "waste of time" or something similar I would like to hear from you.

I am looking at opening a ANZ V2 account with an ebroking account. Are any of you using these two and are you happy with the service from them? Did you encounter any taxation or compliance issues or is it as they say on their site "ESUPERFUND attends to ALL the above annual compliance requirements for your SMSF."?

Is there anything negative or positive that may be delighting or annoying you? 

How easy was it to shift your industry fund over to Esuperfund? Any delays from your old fund?

Just a bit of background, I am an experienced investor but most of my assets are outside of super. I am looking to manage the same kind of portfolio inside super.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I would rather know now than run into problems later. Thanks for your time.


----------



## coolcup

*Re: To present members of Esuperfund*



Bill M said:


> I am thinking of joining Esuperfund and I have read this thread but a lot of comments date back to 2007 when the thread was first started.
> 
> I will get straight to the point. I kindly ask if present members could give their evaluation of Esuperfund. I know a lot of you are busy so even if you write "very happy" or "it's ok" or "waste of time" or something similar I would like to hear from you.
> 
> I am looking at opening a ANZ V2 account with an ebroking account. Are any of you using these two and are you happy with the service from them? Did you encounter any taxation or compliance issues or is it as they say on their site "ESUPERFUND attends to ALL the above annual compliance requirements for your SMSF."?
> 
> Is there anything negative or positive that may be delighting or annoying you?
> 
> How easy was it to shift your industry fund over to Esuperfund? Any delays from your old fund?
> 
> Just a bit of background, I am an experienced investor but most of my assets are outside of super. I am looking to manage the same kind of portfolio inside super.
> 
> Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I would rather know now than run into problems later. Thanks for your time.




Hi mate

I moved over to Esuperfund about 2 years ago and they have been great. There are some aspects of their service which are a bit limiting (eg you have to run all transactions through your V2 Plus account and you are forced to use a limited choice of brokers) but these were not a deal killer for me by any means. All in all I have not found it limiting for what I want to invest my super in (mainly shares, managed funds and term deposits / online savings accounts). 

Their annual audit process is all done online, they automate a lot of it but ask for a few scanned copies of dividend statements / account balances for accounts they don't have automated. All in all fairly easy if you keep your statements in a file throughout the year. Last year I took the time to ask them several questions as part of the annual audit and their answers were thorough and well detailed with full workups provided when I asked them. 

All in all I am very satisfied with their platform and their service. I was expecting them to be more of a pain than they really are given their low fees.

Any specific questions, let me know.


----------



## Bill M

*Re: To present members of Esuperfund*



coolcup said:


> All in all I am very satisfied with their platform and their service. I was expecting them to be more of a pain than they really are given their low fees.
> 
> Any specific questions, let me know.




Thank you coolcup, really appreciate that. What about their fees, is it as they say $699 per annum plus $249 for the ATO? Was there any extras? 

One more question, which beneficiary route did you go? A Binding Beneficiary or a Reversionary Beneficiary and what was the reason for choosing what you chose if you don't mind me asking you that?

Thanks.


----------



## merlinnn

I am with esuper and looking to change shortly to another provider, purely for the amount of brokerage I have to pay with commsec. Its basically $60.00 a round trip (as in buy and sell) and $18.00 if I use IB, but this gives me no CHESS protection on Aussie shares. Unfortunately for me I am down about $1500 in brokerage with not even 12 months of trading under my belt, hence the reason to move as the $699 fee doesn't help me. 


Apart from that they are very easy to deal with and the online filing of last years tax return was very straight forward.


----------



## Bill M

Thanks merlinnn. What about changing to the other broker they use, ebroking? They only charge $20 in and out for parcels 10K and under and they do CHESS as well? Or are you doing bigger parcels? I pay those amounts to brokers now outside of super, it's about market rate and I have 3 different brokers.

They other thing is, can another SMSF service do it cheaper? I can't find one but if you do can you let me know about it? Thank you.


----------



## Pager

Hi Bill

I set up with Esuper about 3 years ago, set up was pretty easy and free and so far its been very easy and straightforward, having to use the ANZ V2 account and ebroking or comsec for shares is not issue for me, ANZ you get a slightly higher rate on cash your waiting to invest and ebroking has low brokerage, you have access to very competitive term deposits and can use FIIG who are a fixed interest specialist and buy any managed funds you wish, if you use Investsmart you get some of the trailing commissions rebated, you can buy property although there are additional fees and requirements and as I haven’t or do I intend to so have not gone into it too much but can see there is options for those who want to, so really just about everything is covered.

Last year I paid the $699 fee and another ATO fee but it wasn’t much, then there was an additional one off fee to adjust the trust deed document but I think all funds had to do that due to some regulatory changes by the government; mind you it was only about $100, but other than that no surprises, any accountant its going to be double that I reckon at least mind you there is no advice but if your experienced at investing and prepared to do all your own research its well worth it, anything major though Esuper will let you know and as with the regulatory change last year get it all sorted out.

All the reporting could not be easier in fact people I know who run through there accountants and pay a lot more seem to have more hassle, but as esuper have your V2 and ebroking accounts access when they send your electronic check documents its more or less all prepopulated and you just have to verify the transactions and credits, all I had to do additionally was send in dividend statements and that was about it.

Overall I can highly recommend them and not sure why those who say the limited choices and not being able to use other brokers or accounts is an issue as the ones they use are amongst the most competitive? (merlinnn, why not just use ebroking rather than comsec? platform is easy to use and brokerage starts at $20).

IMHO, I can’t think of any reason why not to use esuper or anyone similar to them unless you’re a complete novice.

Good Luck


----------



## Bill M

Pager said:


> IMHO, I can’t think of any reason why not to use esuper or anyone similar to them unless you’re a complete novice.
> 
> Good Luck




Thanks Pager, just what I was looking for. You have put to rest any doubts I may have had, excellent report. Cheers mate.


----------



## rcm617

Joined them about 3 years ago after thinking about SMSF for a couple of years, wish I had done so a few years earlier, I think my super balance would be a lot healthier.
I basically only invest in direct shares in super and a bit of cash when I cant see to many opportunities in the market. Converted to a TTR pension last year, all seamlessly and at no extra cost.
I have no problems with the lack of choice of accounts, not a frequent trader, so the slight difference in brokerage on 20 or so transactions a year will not add up to much.
All in all for the cost of the service, I have found them to be a remarkably good service, albeit with not much advice, though I find their website very handy for any information I need. Would recommend them.


----------



## Bill M

Thanks rcm617, really appreciated your report.


----------



## merlinnn

Bill M said:


> Thanks merlinnn. What about changing to the other broker they use, ebroking? They only charge $20 in and out for parcels 10K and under and they do CHESS as well? Or are you doing bigger parcels? I pay those amounts to brokers now outside of super, it's about market rate and I have 3 different brokers.
> 
> They other thing is, can another SMSF service do it cheaper? I can't find one but if you do can you let me know about it? Thank you.




I am only trading parcels under 10k at the moment but foresee myself conducting well over 100 trades throughout the year, there fore any cost cutting on brokerage is a bonus at the moment. 



Pager said:


> Overall I can highly recommend them and not sure why those who say the limited choices and not being able to use other brokers or accounts is an issue as the ones they use are amongst the most competitive? (merlinnn, why not just use ebroking rather than comsec? platform is easy to use and brokerage starts at $20).
> 
> 
> IMHO, I can’t think of any reason why not to use esuper or anyone similar to them unless you’re a complete novice.
> 
> Good Luck




I'm still debating whether to use CMC markets or stick with IB for everything, my only logic was risk management as in having 50/50 Australian/ US brokerage accounts. Still not sure on that one.

Either way if you have a low amount of transactions and are not relying on advice, great company to deal with.


----------



## sydboy007

Bill M said:


> Thanks merlinnn. What about changing to the other broker they use, ebroking? They only charge $20 in and out for parcels 10K and under and they do CHESS as well? Or are you doing bigger parcels? I pay those amounts to brokers now outside of super, it's about market rate and I have 3 different brokers.
> 
> They other thing is, can another SMSF service do it cheaper? I can't find one but if you do can you let me know about it? Thank you.




I'm with esuperfund and finding them quite good.

They now allow you to open an IB account for $8 trades, so if you do plan to make a lot of trades you can put most of your business through them.

You will still have to have a main brokerage account, but there's nothing forcing you to use it once you have an IB account set up as well.

I've just done my annual audit and tax return info and it was pretty painless.  It does help if you have a scanner, though you can fax / post copies to them as well.  I find it easier to just scan all the dividend advices and annual tax statements into my google drive then they were all ready to insert as links when I emailed them all the information they requested.  Makes looking for info easier too since it's now all online.

Free first audit and ongoing fee of just $699 I'm happy to let them handle the boring compliance while I can have some fun and focus on investing.  Even with around half of my fund in fixed interest I'm up around 20% since last December when I opened my account.  I like being able to have a "balanced" fund where I can earn a decent yield on my cash and fixed interest and  use ETFs to gain cheap access to international shares. I'm saving at least $500 a year in fees now, and since it's a fixed fee structure that will only increase as the years go by.


----------



## Bill M

merlinnn said:


> Either way if you have a low amount of transactions and are not relying on advice, great company to deal with.




Thanks merlinnn, sounds good to me as I am a low transaction account holder.



sydboy007 said:


> I've just done my annual audit and tax return info and it was pretty painless.  It does help if you have a scanner, though you can fax / post copies to them as well.  I find it easier to just scan all the dividend advices and annual tax statements into my google drive then they were all ready to insert as links when I emailed them all the information they requested.  Makes looking for info easier too since it's now all online.
> 
> Free first audit and ongoing fee of just $699 I'm happy to let them handle the boring compliance while I can have some fun and focus on investing.  Even with around half of my fund in fixed interest I'm up around 20% since last December when I opened my account.  I like being able to have a "balanced" fund where I can earn a decent yield on my cash and fixed interest and  use ETFs to gain cheap access to international shares. I'm saving at least $500 a year in fees now, and since it's a fixed fee structure that will only increase as the years go by.




Hi sydboy thanks for the report. I also have electronic advice by email for all my dividends/distributions through Computershare and Linkmarket services. I can download the PDF's from their site and send those to Esperfund. I have a scanner so anything else can be scanned to them also.

One of my main reasons for wanting to open this account is what you have said "decent yields on cash and fixed interest". The major super funds returns for cash are very low, for the 13-14 tax year i doubt any will make 3% at most. Also a lot of bond funds are showing woeful returns right now, something around 1 to 1.5% for the first 5 Months of the financial year. I on the other hand have a private portfolio (my own picks) of hybrids, convertible notes and floating rate notes. By picking my own stocks my portfolio is showing far better results (between 5% and 10% depending on the stock). I am also getting 4.5% for cash, so if I can do it why can't those funds?

On another note, industry super funds keep on making claims of how they save you money by not having shareholders or parent companies to pay fees to but in the end their fees are very high and their performance is lower. A 200K pension account with an industry super fund in a balanced fund will cost you between $1,400 and $2,000 in fees. With lower performance taken into consideration, do they really think that is value?

Anyhow, looks like I have to do it myself. Esuperfund looks like the way I will go, thanks again.


----------



## aarbee

sydboy007 said:


> I'm with esuperfund and finding them quite good.
> 
> They now allow you to open an IB account for $8 trades, so if you do plan to make a lot of trades you can put most of your business through them.
> 
> You will still have to have a main brokerage account, but there's nothing forcing you to use it once you have an IB account set up as well.




I am with eSuperfund and need to take up the option of trading via IB. However, I can't find any reference to IB on the eSuperfund website. 
Are you actually trading with IB in your eSuperfund SMSF account?

Best regards


----------



## aarbee

Further to my previous post, I have just received confirmation from eSuperfund that they no longer allow IB as a broker. 
This is not what I wanted to hear. I will seriously consider moving my SMSF account to an accountant for more flexibility. 

Can anyone suggest a good/reliable accountant for SMSF with reasonable fees?

Very interested to hear.

Cheers


----------



## merlinnn

aarbee said:


> Further to my previous post, I have just received confirmation from eSuperfund that they no longer allow IB as a broker.
> This is not what I wanted to hear. I will seriously consider moving my SMSF account to an accountant for more flexibility.
> 
> Can anyone suggest a good/reliable accountant for SMSF with reasonable fees?
> 
> Very interested to hear.
> 
> Cheers




I know I was one of the last to scrape in with IB, that was December last year give or take. I have been looking around for a few months and found a company called green frog super. Most of them appear to charge around $1200.00 to $2000.00 a year depending on what they offer. Some are also transaction limited and then charge up to $3.00 per additional transaction. The other thing I have noticed is a lot of providers advertising their service less the end of year audit, which you later read in the fine print. The average audit price seems to be around the $400.00 mark.

Good luck


----------



## Leiothrix

*Re: To present members of Esuperfund*



Bill M said:


> Thank you coolcup, really appreciate that. What about their fees, is it as they say $699 per annum plus $249 for the ATO? Was there any extras?




There is also a ~$40/year ASIC fee if you choose to use a corporate trustee.  I definitely recommend a corporate trustee, a little bit of extra work (and $500ish) to set up, but after that makes things simpler.

I've only had them for less than 12 months, but am happy so far.  Gives me control of my destiny.

I got sick of seeing red on my industry super, at least if I lose anything with the SMSF I can only blame myself.


----------



## Bill M

^^^Thanks for that Leiothrix.


----------



## IB12

merlinnn said:


> I know I was one of the last to scrape in with IB, that was December last year give or take. I have been looking around for a few months and found a company called* green frog super*. Most of them appear to charge around $1200.00 to $2000.00 a year depending on what they offer. Some are also transaction limited and then charge up to $3.00 per additional transaction. The other thing I have noticed is a lot of providers advertising their service less the end of year audit, which you later read in the fine print. The average audit price seems to be around the $400.00 mark.
> 
> Good luck




Anyone else know a decent SMSF administrator (annual admin + audit)? 
Assuming eSuperfund will no longer be offering IB as an acceptable broker, they won't be able to administer for those who have/or want an IB trading platform. So it's time to look elsewhere. 

I've looked around iCareSuper looks like they offer good value: $74/mth (including audit) which works out to be about ~$900 p.a.
http://www.icaresmsf.com.au/


----------



## Pager

I don’t know why the restricted choice of brokers is such a huge problem or concern when choosing to use Esuperfund or not, Ebroking is $20 minimum brokerage, that’s about as good as it gets, only IB would be cheaper?

Unless your doing significant turnover of trades would the additional cost of using an accountant or other administrator be worthwhile?, then with IB you cannot reinvest dividends, they hold the stock as custodian, may be a very small risk but if IB went belly up it may take years to get your money back if at all, at least with other brokers YOU hold the stock.

Then if you are trading so frequently that using IB makes a huge difference then you’re running the risk of being seen to be running a business which isn’t allowed for a super fund.

Don’t get me wrong, I think IB are great and I pump plenty through them trading futures but don’t do anything for my super.


----------



## DrEric

Pager said:


> then you’re running the risk of being seen to be running a business which isn’t allowed for a super fund.




I would also like to know if this is the case, as i have been told the same, but would have a preference towards IB. 

any SMSF auditors to shed light?


----------



## jorgon

Pager said:


> Then if you are trading so frequently that using IB makes a huge difference then you’re running the risk of being seen to be running a business which isn’t allowed for a super fund.






DrEric said:


> I would also like to know if this is the case, as i have been told the same, but would have a preference towards IB.
> any SMSF auditors to shed light?




It is often said that an SMSF cannot run a business, but there is actually no absolute prohibition against this in superannuation law.  Of course the trust deed would need to allow it - most well drafted ones would do so.  The reason why some professionals advise SMSF clients not to run a business is that the ATO may question whether the fund is complying with the sole purpose test (that the fund is being maintained for the sole purpose of providing retirement benefits for the members, or to their dependants if a member dies before retirement).  So it cannot for example, be a form of employment for a member.  It cannot provide remuneration for the member (with some exceptions).  And it is doubly important that there is a reasoned argument for the business operation in the investment strategy in the light of the resources and ultimate demands on the fund.  And if an SMSF runs a business it may be much more difficult for the fund to maintain separation of its funds from the trustee, to ensure that all investments are at arms length, to avoid a member or trustee receiving financial assistance from the fund, or to avoid the fund acquiring an asset from the member or trustee.  It can be seen however, that if the business arises because of the extent of sharedealing through an online stockbroker these risks are small.

As for whether there is a business being operated by sharedealing the ATO has a page about that here
Basically the ATO says that a decision is made in each particular case depending on:-


the nature of the activities, particularly whether they have the purpose of profit making
 the repetition, volume and regularity of the activities, and the similarity to other businesses in your industry
 the keeping of books of accounts and records of trading stock, business premises, licences or qualifications, a
 registered business name and an Australian business number
 the volume of the operations
 the amount of capital employed.
If the fund is sharedealing the accounts would need to be drawn up a little differently - see the ATO page here.


----------



## McLovin

Jorgon

You seem pretty clued up. A couple of questions if I may.

1) Can a SMSF lend to a related party (ie a family trust)?

2) Is there any restriction on foreign investment (property) by a SMSF?

My thinking is both would be OK, but I'm just trying to double check. My accountant is on holidays and an opportunity has come up.

Thanks

McL


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> 1) Can a SMSF lend to a related party (ie a family trust)?




I'm in holiday mode... but off the top of my head you cannot lend to a related individual.  You can lend to a related party entity (company or trust) in limited circumstances.   It would be defined as an "in house" asset.   The fund cannot have total in-house assets of more than 5% of total fund assets.    The loan would need to have a proper "arms-length" interest rate and everything should be properly documented. It basically needs to be done as you would a commercial transaction with a third party.  

Re:  the foreign investment properties.   We have clients who have done this,  but just be aware that some foreign domiciles require you to set up complicated asset structures if you are not a resident.  The SMSF cannot purchase the company direct in a lot of cases. Pretty sure that in the US for instance you have to establish a US registered company which buys the property and in which the SMSF becomes the share holder.  Could be wrong,  but something to keep an eye on.

The property itself may be OK in satisfying the SMSF rules,  but the ownership structure may conflict with some of the SIS act rules if you are not careful.  Be very careful with related party definitions and in house asset rules if you need to register a company to buy the property.   Would definitely seek legal advice on your specific circumstances before making a move.

All of the standard asset rules apply to the foreign property  (ie you cannot buy residential property from a related party).

Please DYOR,   but hope this provides a good starting point. Happy New Year.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> I'm in holiday mode... but off the top of my head you cannot lend to a related individual.  You can lend to a related party entity (company or trust) in limited circumstances.   It would be defined as an "in house" asset.   The fund cannot have total in-house assets of more than 5% of total fund assets.    The loan would need to have a proper "arms-length" interest rate and everything should be properly documented. It basically needs to be done as you would a commercial transaction with a third party.
> 
> Re:  the foreign investment properties.   We have clients who have done this,  but just be aware that some foreign domiciles require you to set up complicated asset structures if you are not a resident.  The SMSF cannot purchase the company direct in a lot of cases. Pretty sure that in the US for instance you have to establish a US registered company which buys the property and in which the SMSF becomes the share holder.  Could be wrong,  but something to keep an eye on.
> 
> The property itself may be OK in satisfying the SMSF rules,  but the ownership structure may conflict with some of the SIS act rules if you are not careful.  Be very careful with related party definitions and in house asset rules if you need to register a company to buy the property.   Would definitely seek legal advice on your specific circumstances before making a move.
> 
> All of the standard asset rules apply to the foreign property  (ie you cannot buy residential property from a related party).
> 
> Please DYOR,   but hope this provides a good starting point. Happy New Year.




Thanks Ves, 

I'm pretty much on top of the requirements at the other end, and it will require me to set up a holding company. The nice thing is that there's no CGT in the country, so I'm just trying to work out the best way to structure it from this end. I've been tossing up a few ideas, I think I will just use the family trust and leave the SMSF out of it. I pretty much put in a low, low ball offer because the guy who owns the land has his lenders all over him and amazingly he accepted.

I just wanted a rough outline of how to proceed, will definitely check with accountant/solicitor.


----------



## Bill M

McLovin said:


> Jorgon
> 
> You seem pretty clued up. A couple of questions if I may.
> 
> 1) Can a SMSF lend to a related party (ie a family trust)?
> 
> 2) Is there any restriction on foreign investment (property) by a SMSF?
> 
> My thinking is both would be OK, but I'm just trying to double check. My accountant is on holidays and an opportunity has come up.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> McL




Hello McLoving, as this is the ESuperfund thread, you may find this very interesting. Scroll down to the Investments Disallowed part. It clearly states "Clients of ESuperfund are not allowed to invest in overseas property." I don't know if you are with them or not but there is some good reading there anyway, cheers.

Link here: http://www.esuperfund.com.au/Libraries/WebsitePDF/3_Investment.sflb.ashx


----------



## McLovin

Bill M said:


> Hello McLoving, as this is the ESuperfund thread, you may find this very interesting. Scroll down to the Investments Disallowed part. It clearly states "Clients of ESuperfund are not allowed to invest in overseas property." I don't know if you are with them or not but there is some good reading there anyway, cheers.
> 
> Link here: http://www.esuperfund.com.au/Libraries/WebsitePDF/3_Investment.sflb.ashx




Thanks, Bill.

I'm not with them, but I'll have a look.


----------



## merlinnn

jorgon said:


> It is often said that an SMSF cannot run a business, but there is actually no absolute prohibition against this in superannuation law.  Of course the trust deed would need to allow it - most well drafted ones would do so.  The reason why some professionals advise SMSF clients not to run a business is that the ATO may question whether the fund is complying with the sole purpose test (that the fund is being maintained for the sole purpose of providing retirement benefits for the members, or to their dependants if a member dies before retirement).  So it cannot for example, be a form of employment for a member.  It cannot provide remuneration for the member (with some exceptions).  And it is doubly important that there is a reasoned argument for the business operation in the investment strategy in the light of the resources and ultimate demands on the fund.  And if an SMSF runs a business it may be much more difficult for the fund to maintain separation of its funds from the trustee, to ensure that all investments are at arms length, to avoid a member or trustee receiving financial assistance from the fund, or to avoid the fund acquiring an asset from the member or trustee.  It can be seen however, that if the business arises because of the extent of sharedealing through an online stockbroker these risks are small.
> 
> As for whether there is a business being operated by sharedealing the ATO has a page about that here
> Basically the ATO says that a decision is made in each particular case depending on:-
> 
> 
> the nature of the activities, particularly whether they have the purpose of profit making
> the repetition, volume and regularity of the activities, and the similarity to other businesses in your industry
> the keeping of books of accounts and records of trading stock, business premises, licences or qualifications, a
> registered business name and an Australian business number
> the volume of the operations
> the amount of capital employed.
> If the fund is sharedealing the accounts would need to be drawn up a little differently - see the ATO page here.




Thanks for the above information. I too am seeking confirmation on this as I am expecting to be making several hundred trades this year with the current system I am following. I can understand the debate between carrying on a trading business vs being an investor out side of an SMSF. However if you are trading inside an SMSF and all profits are being put back into the fund where would the problem lie? I have emailed my provider about this, hopefully they can give me a black or white answer. Everything around the SIS Act seems to be grey and up to the ATO to make it black or white!!

Any other opinions are most welcomed with this issue.

For what its worth I ended up going with ICARE super as well not Green Frog as originally debated. Small company with a personal touch, so far extremely helpful.


----------



## merlinnn

I spoke with my provider and mentioned I will probably make around 300 trades and he said that would be fine. Apparently the ATO as stated above will look at everything at a case by case basis, which doesn't really help anyone. The only thing we can do is trust in our advisers and be sensible I guess.


----------



## Bill M

Just one more question I haven't found the answer for.

If I go with individual trustees it will most likely be my wife and I. My wife doesn't understand financial matters and leaves it all up to me.

Can I as one of the trustees make decisions on my own? For example I see a stock that I want to buy, the price is right and I wish to do it now. Do I need the second trustees permission? I would already have permission, what I am concerned about is acting swiftly on my own without having to chase up my wife who might be at work.

So, can trustees work on their own? Or can you get bogged down having both trustees signing papers to make investments?


----------



## jorgon

Bill M said:


> Just one more question I haven't found the answer for.
> 
> If I go with individual trustees it will most likely be my wife and I. My wife doesn't understand financial matters and leaves it all up to me.
> 
> Can I as one of the trustees make decisions on my own? For example I see a stock that I want to buy, the price is right and I wish to do it now. Do I need the second trustees permission? I would already have permission, what I am concerned about is acting swiftly on my own without having to chase up my wife who might be at work.
> 
> So, can trustees work on their own? Or can you get bogged down having both trustees signing papers to make investments?



Hi Bill M

This has to be viewed in two parts:-
(a) agreement as to the investment strategy
(b) day to day implementation of that strategy

The agreement as to the investment strategy is crucial, because the auditor will check that you have an investment strategy, that it is regularly reviewed, and that investments have been made in accordance with it.  Where there are two members of the fund and there is one investment strategy covering the investments made with both their account balances, then obviously the members must understand and agree the strategy.  If the investments are segregated then a member must understand and agree the strategy applying to their own account balance.  Since the investment strategy should carefully set out the type of investments envisaged and weigh up the risks and possible advantages of each in the light of the fund's current and future resources and current and future obligations, as well as in the light of the other resources and obligations of the members (outside the fund), it should be in clear enough terms for your wife to understand and accept it.

As for the day to day implementation of the strategy, it will usually be accepted that it is impractical to seek the other member's approval for a particular trade.  The small print in the trust deed might say whether (and if so how) such decisions can be delegated to one of the members.  If it does not specify how this can be done, it is up to the trustees to decide this and I would suggest that you add a paragraph to the investment strategy which says that the day to day implementation of the investment strategy is delegated to one of the members and appointing that member.  Or this could be in a separate document signed by both of you.  Alternatively it might be possible to make this appointment using the documentation provided by your fund's stockbroker's account.


----------



## Bill M

^^^ Thanks for the reply jorgon, cheers.^^^


----------



## sydboy007

Bill M said:


> Just one more question I haven't found the answer for.
> 
> If I go with individual trustees it will most likely be my wife and I. My wife doesn't understand financial matters and leaves it all up to me.
> 
> Can I as one of the trustees make decisions on my own? For example I see a stock that I want to buy, the price is right and I wish to do it now. Do I need the second trustees permission? I would already have permission, what I am concerned about is acting swiftly on my own without having to chase up my wife who might be at work.
> 
> So, can trustees work on their own? Or can you get bogged down having both trustees signing papers to make investments?




Crucial thing for your wife to understand is that she has a legal obligation to understand the investment strategy.

While she may not be involved in the day to day trades she shouldn't be totally oblivious to what's going on either as there's no defence should you get up to some tricky business - this is more a general warning to spouses considering being a trustee and thinking they can get away with signing a few documents each year as the sum of their required involvement.

No idea how much auditing the ATO does of SMSF trustees, but it would not be good for your wife during one to sound as if she's not clued in to what is happening.

If your wife is not contributing to the fund it might be safer to set your self up with a corporate trustee instead.


----------



## Bill M

sydboy007 said:


> If your wife is not contributing to the fund it might be safer to set your self up with a corporate trustee instead.




You are the 3rd person who has suggested this to me. I think I might just have to bite the bullet and pay the $600 and set up a company, then there will be no stress or worries for my wife. Thanks again.


----------



## sydboy007

Bill M said:


> You are the 3rd person who has suggested this to me. I think I might just have to bite the bullet and pay the $600 and set up a company, then there will be no stress or worries for my wife. Thanks again.




I used ecompanies.com.au in Nov 2011 and they were around $470

All online and everything set up within 20 minutes of me starting the process.


----------



## sydboy007

I'd say we're all now receiving letters from the ATO regarding SuperStream and the new requirement to have an electronic service address.

Looks like esuperfund are organising this for us at no cost.  Should hear from them late this month.

http://esuperfund.com.au/learn/contributions-to-smsf/ss.html


----------



## Pager

I need to look at an alternative to esuperfund, not that im unhappy with them, far from it, but I cannot use IB, for whatever reason they don’t accept them as a optional broker anymore (should have opened an account when offered  ) and having just closed down my family trust I was wanting to move my futures trading into my SMSF, the choices I have with esuperfund are either DMA CFD with First Prudential or direct futures with Saxo but rates on most markets are much higher than IB. 

Can anyone recommend or give feedback of other providers that have no restriction on who you use or allow IB? have found 2 that have reasonable rates but both I know nothing about apart from there websites, ones called iCare Super and the other Green Frog (links below). realise it will cost me more but happy to pay a bit extra, as will also save on brokerge

http://www.icaresmsf.com.au/

http://greenfrogsuper.com.au/

Thanks


----------



## MACD

Pager, Why don't you keep the current SMSF with Esuperfund and then open a second SMSF account with a different company.  This way you can get the best of both worlds, and do your IB trading with the new company.

Just an idea.


----------



## peter2

There should be no need to pay two sets of yearly audit fees.

Stay with ES if you're satisfied with them. Consider IB as another asset within the fund (ensure the IB activities comply with the trust deed). As ESuperfund doesn't have access to the IB account you will have to provide them any EOFY details that ESuperfund require for the audit and tax return. These details may include a statement showing account start and ending balances with deposits/withdrawals and/or an excel spreadsheet with all trades detailed. I believe you can get all these reports easily through the IB reporting system.


----------



## Pager

Thanks MACD, but running 2 funds doesn’t make sense, why pay for everything twice.

Peter2, With esuperfund they restrict who you can use, i read the site last night and it says if you wish to use brokers other than on there allowed list, they can not accept you as a client anymore.

I guess they keep there fees low as they get commission from the brokers and services you can use and TBH just about everything is covered and im happy with it, but the one arena I want to use being futures there options are limited and Saxo look like they use the IB platform anyway, there rates are about double and more on some markets!!! oh, and there Bro dont include exchange fees, so another dollar at least per contract, per side


----------



## titl4

Pager said:


> Can anyone recommend or give feedback of other providers that have no restriction on who you use or allow IB? have found 2 that have reasonable rates but both I know nothing about apart from there websites, ones called iCare Super and the other Green Frog (links below). realise it will cost me more but happy to pay a bit extra, as will also save on brokerge
> http://www.icaresmsf.com.au/
> http://greenfrogsuper.com.au/
> Thanks




I had the same problem a while back and ended up going to GreenFrog.  Annual fees are of course higher but I at least partly offset this with better cash rates.  Service is fast and effective - any queries are resolved very quickly.  I am very satisfied and while IB was the reason I left ES I wouldn't consider going back even if the limited investment issues were resolved.
Cheers ..... Alan


----------



## aarbee

I am in the same position as pager. Fully satisfied with eSuperfund but would have to leave as they don't IB and would need to switch to IB for options trading in my SMSF account in a few months. 
Thanks for your comments on Greenfrog. Will investigate this company. Would like to invite comments from other users of Greenfrog. 
Cheers


----------



## systematic

I'm not with them but I recently had someone who went with icaresmsf say they were very happy with them.


----------



## Pager

Thanks for the comments so far  like aarbee I would like to hear more from anyone who uses Green frog (thanks titl4 though) or iCare (thanks systematic), both seem fairly new providers to the market and there is not a lot on the net about them feedback wise, also before I hand over my Super I want to know its in the hands of people who have a good reputation, just going off there website is not enough.

To those who have moved providers, can anyone give feedback as to how easy this is and what steps did you take, guessing that before you move you set up the new accounts but don’t fund them?, that is bank, broker etc, then you engage the new provider and give them the new details to get this done, being with esuperfund I would need to change bank accounts and broker as currently im with ANZ V2 which is not available anymore unless through esuper (and there is better out there i would rather use) and ebroking, so esuperfunds broking arm, although happy enough with them.


----------



## Pager

*Bump 

Any more iCare or Green frog feedback???????????

Also if anyones interested, found this list of Setup and Administration service providers thats quite comprehensive.

http://www.thesmsfreview.com.au/comparison-table-smsf.html

And then there is this list of Online brokers to use in your SMSF

http://www.thesmsfreview.com.au/comparison-table-online-brokers.html


----------



## Pager

Just to update 

Did quite a bit of research, digging and making enquires.

Esuperfund are highly recommended and if it wasn’t for the limited futures brokers they offer through there partners would stay with them. 

Will be paying more for the Admin of my fund and the audit, but on the plus side I can use anyone I want, get much better cash rates on deposits, lower brokerage on stocks and of course now be able to trade futures at low rates as well, so over a year it wont really be costing anymore or may work out to be more beneficial, there will be more paperwork and record keeping my side though and that’s one big plus from Esuperfund I will miss as they can collect all your data straight from the partners, so the tax return each year is pretty much verifying a pre populated set of documents. Then scanning and emailing dividend statements. 

DYOR and Auf Wiedersehen……………………………………….


----------



## Sir Burr

I just noticed eSuper have Interactive Brokers (IB) up on their site as an optional broker choice again 

Curious, anyone know how long this has been the case? I know eSuper allowed it a while back and stopped it.


----------



## Gordon7

Sir Burr said:


> I just noticed eSuper have Interactive Brokers (IB) up on their site as an optional broker choice again
> 
> Curious, anyone know how long this has been the case? I know eSuper allowed it a while back and stopped it.



Sir Burr, I am with ESuperfund and only a short time ago I too noticed they had re-introduced IB as an optional broker. As a result I have just set up an account with them through ESuperfund which is in addition to another account I have with IB as an individual. 

The best part of trading with IB of course is the low commission rates compared to say CMC markets where I also have an account. They are _now _the same rates I pay on my individual IB account.

I have found the platform offerings are not quite as good compared to my individual account and you will definately need to have access to live prices either through them or another source such as provided by CMC if placing a trade during the day. Same if trading or investing in US etc stocks. 

A major downside is the tedious and not so straight forward application process. Glad I have that out of the way.


----------



## Sir Burr

Gordon7 said:


> A major downside is the tedious and not so straight forward application process. Glad I have that out of the way.




Thanks Gordon, yes I have an individual IB account too and know the application fun!

I mostly buy/sell in the opening auction so data is not so important. Been using eBroking so could use that for "depth" and save some brokerage costs with IB 

The downside I see is having a big chunk of capital with a single broker.


----------



## Pager

This is a bit of a bummer as I recently left esuperfund as I could not use IB for futures, but was more than happy with them despite that.

Is there any catch to using IB though?, are there restrictions of any kind, from looking at the website it seems to imply this is for international shares, but then follow the link and it covers everything, so are Aussie shares and Futures allowed as well?, also what are the rates as when they first offered IB the brokerage was slightly higher for esuperfund clients, they then stopped offering IB, so what is it this time?

I have since signed up with iCare Super in Melbourne, bit more than esupefund at $74 per month ($888 per year) including the audit but still pretty good and I can use whomever I want, so do get better rates on cash accounts, so will work out more or less the same with a little extra interest I earn on cash and a very slightly lower brokerage rate than ebroking.


----------



## Sir Burr

Pager said:


> looking at the website it seems to imply this is for international shares, but then follow the link and it covers everything, so are Aussie shares and Futures allowed as well?, also what are the rates as when they first offered IB the brokerage was slightly higher for esuperfund clients, they then stopped offering IB, so what is it this time?




Good questions Pager. I also use Saxo with eSuperfund and they are also listed under international but I just looked and can trade Aussie too.

I followed IB's rate links and found here the commission's. 0.08% ($6min) which I think is standard IB rates, not as before where I think it was more through eSuperfund.

Maybe Gordon can confirm 

Cheers.


----------



## Gordon7

Sir Burr said:


> Good questions Pager. I also use Saxo with eSuperfund and they are also listed under international but I just looked and can trade Aussie too.
> 
> I followed IB's rate links and found here the commission's. 0.08% ($6min) which I think is standard IB rates, not as before where I think it was more through eSuperfund.
> 
> Maybe Gordon can confirm
> 
> Cheers.



Yes I can confirm that commission is being charged at standard IB rates. 
Whilst I was in the process of completing the application form I noticed there was a 50% markup. I queried this with ESuper who advised that they used to impose a markup but this had now been removed. I've placed one trade so far and was charged standard commission. Also simulated a number of other trades to confirm the standard rates apply over different markets and values. 

I have set myself up with permission to trade both the Australian and US share markets but there is nothing to prevent you for signing up for additional markets including futures.


----------



## kfbcomm

Hi  Folks,

A newbie question here.

Do all the brokers offered through eSuper use the same clearance terms as IB - i.e cash for closed positions is only cleared 3 days after the trade and you cannot make any more trades until that clearance is through.

This seems to make my type of system trading unworkable as you cannot execute both parts of a trade rotation on the same day. 

I wa wondering if this restriction was true of all the brokers or is there some way of getting round it.

Thanks for any help

Cheers



Kevin


----------



## kefa

I've just signed up to esuperfund and am looking into setting up an IB account.

Can we have a margin account with IB or are we restricted to only a cash account for SMSF?


----------



## Sir Burr

Hi, eSuperfund are not helpful with setting up the IB account and IB think I need to set eSuperfund as my advisor.

I assume so they get the EOFY statements.

Anyone know if this is correct please?


----------



## kefa

Sir Burr said:


> Hi, eSuperfund are not helpful with setting up the IB account and IB think I need to set eSuperfund as my advisor.
> 
> I assume so they get the EOFY statements.
> 
> Anyone know if this is correct please?




I just went through this process. This page covers the process:
http://esuperfund.com.au/trading/international-shares/IBBrokers/ApplyNow.html

You need to apply using the link at the top of the page. This will then have esuperfund linked as an advisor.


----------



## kfbcomm

kefa said:


> I just went through this process. This page covers the process:
> http://esuperfund.com.au/trading/international-shares/IBBrokers/ApplyNow.html
> 
> You need to apply using the link at the top of the page. This will then have esuperfund linked as an advisor.




Does this then mean that they can electronically access your trading records at reporting time?


----------



## kefa

kfbcomm said:


> Does this then mean that they can electronically access your trading records at reporting time?




yes


----------



## aarjay

Hi Guys,
First time posting here! Been reading this thread for useful info on eSuperfund. 

Finally decide to apply for an account with them. For those interested, there is a current offer of free setup and free first and second year fee until 31Aug.


----------



## Pager

Pager said:


> Just to update
> 
> Did quite a bit of research, digging and making enquires.
> 
> Esuperfund are highly recommended and if it wasn’t for the limited futures brokers they offer through there partners would stay with them.
> 
> Will be paying more for the Admin of my fund and the audit, but on the plus side I can use anyone I want, get much better cash rates on deposits, lower brokerage on stocks and of course now be able to trade futures at low rates as well, so over a year it wont really be costing anymore or may work out to be more beneficial, there will be more paperwork and record keeping my side though and that’s one big plus from Esuperfund I will miss as they can collect all your data straight from the partners, so the tax return each year is pretty much verifying a pre populated set of documents. Then scanning and emailing dividend statements.
> 
> DYOR and Auf Wiedersehen……………………………………….




12 months since i left esuperfund, and guess what, from what i know about a month later they started letting clients use IB again mind you there are now and have been ongoing issues with IB and leverage products, futures are not affected but they did suddenly increase the data fee for the Spi from being free to $65 a month

But just to update, since my switch, which itself is pretty straight forward, i have had no problems with the new admin, so there are alternatives out there who charge not much more, cost me only $140 more for the year, but have maybe saved that or a bit more by being able to use whomever i want for trading/investing/high interest savings account, as i thought though, you really need to keep on top of the paperwork, but its not too bad, i keep everything in google drive and update a spreadsheet, download/scan all tax documents, so when the time came, submitting everything was easy

Would have stayed with esuperfund if they had let me use IB, as never had a problem with them, but no regrets with the switch either.   

Cheers

Pager


----------



## hawamahal

Can someone send me a link of opening Interactive brokers account through Esuperfund. I can't seem to find link for that.

Thanks


----------



## Sir Burr

Just been wondering what the interest rate is for my ANZ V2 Plus cash account is but having trouble finding what it is.

Having a look for that interest rate on the eSuperfund site, I noticed that the Preferred Transaction Bank Account for ESUPERFUND Clients is now the Commonwealth Bank Accelerator Account.

There is no info about the ANZ V2 account on the eSuperfund site anymore.

Anyone know why it was changed?


----------



## coolcup

Sir Burr said:


> Just been wondering what the interest rate is for my ANZ V2 Plus cash account is but having trouble finding what it is.
> 
> Having a look for that interest rate on the eSuperfund site, I noticed that the Preferred Transaction Bank Account for ESUPERFUND Clients is now the Commonwealth Bank Accelerator Account.
> 
> There is no info about the ANZ V2 account on the eSuperfund site anymore.
> 
> Anyone know why it was changed?




I noticed this as well Sir Burr. I think they must be getting the direct feeds that they need to automate their year end processes with CBA. Given their preferred broking arrangement is with Commsec, it probably makes sense that they consolidate the main hub bank account with the same organisation. They definitely earn money by funnelling you to a specific provider and probably CBA's deal was better for them than ANZ.


----------



## Sir Burr

Thanks Coolcup, I was just curious if there might be a benefit (for me) changing to CBA from ANZ as they mention how to do it.

Your probably right it makes things easier for eSuperfund.

Also, I just found on my statement ANZ interest rate is 1.50% and on the eSuperfund site has CBA interest at 0.65%. Good reason to stay put!


----------



## willy1111

I think clients can link an ING Business Optimiser Savings account to the CBA/ANZ transaction account if they wish. Current ongoing interest is 1.60%. 

https://www.esuperfund.com.au/bank-account/savings-account/how-it-works

Although you would have to manually transfer funds btw CBA/ANZ to ING to get that rate.


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## CanOz

Can anyone tell me which Interactive Brokers account structure is the right one for a SMSF?


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## Sir Burr

CanOz said:


> Can anyone tell me which Interactive Brokers account structure is the right one for a SMSF?




Trust


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## CanOz

Thanks Sirr!!


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## Sir Burr

CanOz said:


> Thanks Sirr!!




No worries it's what I see under my IB super account details that I setup through eSuper.

I joined IB about a year ago when eSuper had a link for setting up IB. I just checked and now there is nothing on their site. It was under international share trading but I'm not using IB for that.

Wondering if I'll have to provide a statement from IB next year as I now see "you will need to source and provide this data to ESUPERFUND annually".

If that's the case, IB has it all and is easy to retrieve.


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## theblake7

Does any ESF customers understand what is the current situation with GST?

I just got my annual reports and while checking them found a GST return. The figures for the GST refund didnt immediately correlate and I think I mucked up the reporting of my outflows, so I started digging around.    As it turns out,
- my SMSF has always been registered for GST since the beginning, about 8 years.
- ESF has never included a GST return (BAS) in their annual documents.
- the ESF annual fee has always been previously reported in the profit and loss as a GST inclusive amount, ie like $799
- this year the P&L shows the admin fee of $827,   I *think* they have incorrectly added another expense to that item  AND it is exclusive of GST this time   (if my sums are correct).

I have written to ESF already to ask but they havent responded yet,  its not normal for them to take more than one day to replay.  I dont imagine there is any conspiracy here but it is confusing.   They will no doubt reply that it was explained in an email 11 months ago 

The following information no longer appears on their website, so based on what I see, they have changed policy.


SharonK said:


> Registration for GST
> When you establish a SMSF with ESUPERFUND your Fund will be registered for GST. This means that your SMSF will be
> required to lodge additional documentation with the ATO each year attended to by our office. By registering for GST your Fund will
> be entitled to claim the GST paid on Fund costs. No payment is required to be made by your SMSF to ESUPERFUND for attending
> to the Funds GST obligations. This is because ESUPERFUND is paid from the GST refund received by your Fund. Where the
> SMSF GST refund exceeds $299 we pay the excess into your SMSF Bank Account


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## coolcup

I just looked at my historical fees and I have never been charged more than the usual $699 or $799 a year fee.


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## theblake7

ESF have responded, but didnt explain why it different in previous years, i guess they kept the GST as per the earlier comments , they only explained what is happening today,
So for  06/2016 they are doing the GST return,  and giving us the refund.   The annual fee of $799 will show as $744 on the P & L.   Note that an SMSF only gets 75% of GST credited back

 I didnt get charged $827 by ESF,  they added another expense on that line, and because i didnt know about the 75% I couldnt work it out myself


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## wiseguy

Is Interactive broker still available?
I'm considering taking up their current promo.


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## Sir Burr

wiseguy said:


> Is Interactive broker still available?
> I'm considering taking up their current promo.




You can use whoever you like now:
https://www.esuperfund.com.au/trading/international-shares/how-it-works

...but "you will need to source and provide this data to ESUPERFUND annually" and that'so big deal. Just send them the tax year report.

I got in earlier when they had a setup link for IB and they can access my report themselves.


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## wfdTamar

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I was just on the phone to Commsec about my Esuperfund setup Commsec account. He said 'BTW, you realise you paying quite high brokers fees'?  Turns out it's $29.95 and 0.3% instead of the usual $19.95 and 0.11%!  That's a big margin for Esuperfund. He asked if I wanted to change it, but that may break the deal with Esuperfund. However on second thoughts why should it since you can use a different broker if you want to? I won't be using Commsec. I'm going to be using my usual Selfwealth (a flat $9.50 fee).


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## CanOz

Interactive brokers is even cheaper again....I believe you get the full monty with a a SMSF as well.


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## Wysiwyg

wfdTamar said:


> He asked if I wanted to change it, but that may break the deal with Esuperfund. However on second thoughts why should it since you can use a different broker if you want to? I won't be using Commsec. I'm going to be using my usual Selfwealth (a flat $9.50 fee).



I thought you did not have the option of brokers when with ESuper. ESuper switched from E-Trade to Commsec maybe 8 to 10 years ago.


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## wfdTamar

Have a look at post #281, just a few up. You can, but it means a manual data transfer.

CanOz - Selfwealth are cheaper than IB for large trades (last time I looked some months ago).


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## Wysiwyg

wfdTamar said:


> Have a look at post #281, just a few up. You can, but it means a manual data transfer.



Okay thanks for that clarification.




> *Can your SMSF use Other Broker to invest in Australian Shares?*
> Yes. You are permitted to establish additional Broker Accounts for your SMSF with any Broker desired to invest in Australian Shares, in addition to our Preferred Broker. However if you establish additional Broker for your SMSF with Non Preferred Broker to invest in Australian Shares, data will not be accessible by ESUPERFUND and you will need to source and provide this data to ESUPERFUND annually.


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## Quant

wfdTamar said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I was just on the phone to Commsec about my Esuperfund setup Commsec account. He said 'BTW, you realise you paying quite high brokers fees'?  Turns out it's $29.95 and 0.3% instead of the usual $19.95 and 0.11%!  That's a big margin for Esuperfund. He asked if I wanted to change it, but that may break the deal with Esuperfund. However on second thoughts why should it since you can use a different broker if you want to? I won't be using Commsec. I'm going to be using my usual Selfwealth (a flat $9.50 fee).





https://www.esuperfund.com.au/trading/australian-shares/commsec/commsec-cba




https://www.commsec.com.au/support/rates-and-fees.html


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## Sir Burr

....and with IB it's a matter of logon, go to reports, print out the tax year report and send the pdf to eSuperfund. Easy if your keen on using IB.


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## padman

Was about to open an esuperfund account and noted that broker options have been severely cut back. Commsec for AU shares and Saxo for international shares. When I checked yesterday, they still allowed a choice of broker (just had to submit reports manually). I wanted to use IB, so might have to find an alternative. Wonder whether this affects existing clients using other brokers? If so, it would be such a pita.


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## Sir Burr

padman said:


> Wonder whether this affects existing clients using other brokers? If so, it would be such a pita.




No hasn't affected existing, I still use eBroker and IB and do not have to send trade details.


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## padman

Sir Burr said:


> No hasn't affected existing, I still use eBroker and IB and do not have to send trade details.



That's good. Now I"m not sure what to do... Saxo's commissions are $9.90 minimum vs $1 at IB.


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## Sir Burr

padman said:


> Now I"m not sure what to do... Saxo's commissions are $9.90 minimum vs $1 at IB.




I've used both, I'll make it easy 
Go with IB.


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## padman

Sir Burr said:


> I've used both, I'll make it easy
> Go with IB.



I want to, but they don't allow it anymore. 
https://www.esuperfund.com.au/trading/international-shares/how-it-works
"The Permitted Broker to invest in US International Shares is Saxo Capital Markets. ESUPERFUND Clients are not permitted to invest in International Shares with Brokers other than our Permitted Broker."


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## Sir Burr

padman said:


> ESUPERFUND Clients are not permitted to invest in International Shares with Brokers other than our Permitted Broker."




Ahh sorry I thought you could still send them a yearly report from other brokers. eSuperfund has changed this numerous times over the past 5 years I've been with them.


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## padman

Sir Burr said:


> Ahh sorry I thought you could still send them a yearly report from other brokers. eSuperfund has changed this numerous times over the past 5 years I've been with them.



Sorry for all the questions. When they've made similar changes in the past, did it affect you? Ie. would this new change force you to use Saxo now? Just trying to gauge if it's worth going with them if they keep changing the rules. I don't want to be switching brokers each time they have a new rule.


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## Sir Burr

padman said:


> When they've made similar changes in the past, did it affect you?




No as mentioned above, in the past they have not forced me out of using IB. No idea why they have swapped and changed over the years but if I was starting out again:

Running a short term system, bypass eSuperfund and go with someone that accepts IB.

If running a long term system where brokerage doesn't matter so much, go with eSuperfund and use Saxo. Personally I hated using the Saxo webtrader or whatever it's called


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## padman

Sir Burr said:


> Running a short term system, bypass eSuperfund and go with someone that accepts IB.




Any recommendations?
Had a look at green frog, but seems a bit more expensive.


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## Sir Burr

I believe you can use any broker with www.superannuationwarehouse.com.au


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## trading_rookie

Not sure if anyone is still reading this post...

What is esupers annual admin fee for the second year, if the first year is free?

Can't find this critical piece of info on their website on anywhere on the net for that matter.


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## peter2

Come on. It took me 3 seconds.


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## peter2

My apologies if you're new to the internet. Here's the full link.

https://www.esuperfund.com.au/fees/fee-schedule/new-smsf


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## Zero Sum Game

Im with esuper.
Been about 7 yrs now i think.
No problems at all so far.
They make smsf simple, but only if you use their preferred bank accounts and brokers.


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## sptrawler

I'm with http://www.onlinesuperfund.com.au/
Been with them 3 years, no problems so far, use your own broker, bank etc.
Simple straight forward, no issues as yet, it is a no frills service.


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## trading_rookie

@peter2, all good. My bad, that was meant to be third year. Do the fees increase substanially after the second year? Any other hidden costs or products they try and push on you?

@Zero Sum Game, good to hear, as not looking to change and swap, once a decision has been made

@sptrawler, I'm assuming you did your research before settling with them. Was it just the choice of bank/broker that made you go with them? Their fees seem alot more


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## Sir Burr

Just to let you know about exiting. I'm sorting stuff out in advance on non-residency as you can't run a SMSF. There may be ways around it but rather things simple.

Anyway, been with eSuper for years and fees haven't changed much. That's been good. I was able to use IB for ASX stocks but only realised I could do it when I set them as my International stock choice. Not sure if that's possible now.

Only memorable thing is I'd get a nasty notice from ATO telling my to pay tax IMMEDIATELY. I read and signed the end of year eSuper paperwork but always forgot to record the date and ATO payment. Never a problem, eSuper alerted me and I'd Bpay. Good thing I paid last second 

As far as exiting, better to do it closer to the EOTY if possible as you still pay the yearly fee. Also, it seems they put you at the bottom of the list for doing your tax as it's taken months to close the account. Ended up shifting out the bulk of dollars (which was fine) but still have an amount sitting in the ANZ account.


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## sptrawler

trading_rookie said:


> @sptrawler, I'm assuming you did your research before settling with them. Was it just the choice of bank/broker that made you go with them? Their fees seem alot more



I didn't do a lot of research, I started my fund using BGL simple fund in 1987 and doing most of it myself.
Then travelling made it more and more difficult, so looked for an accountant using simple fund, so I can still have the fund on my p.c, which I think makes it more portable.
I didn't think their costs were too bad (about $850/annum), but I haven't really compared a lot, I guess it boils down to what sits best with you.
I also like running my banking as is and don't wish to change it.
Having said all that a couple of mates use esuper and they seem happy with them.


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## trading_rookie

@Sir Burr, from what I understand if another trustee/director of the fund remains in Oz, and continues to contribute then all fine. Not sure of your circumstances but the 45% tax is a little hard to swallow if you take the money and run, so to speak.

@sptrawler, 1987? or did you mean 1997?

Just curious what most here use, an individual or corporate trustee setup?


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## sptrawler

trading_rookie said:


> @sptrawler, 1987? or did you mean 1997?
> 
> Just curious what most here use, an individual or corporate trustee setup?




My mistake, typing isn't my strong point, 1997 is correct.


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## Sir Burr

trading_rookie said:


> from what I understand if another trustee/director of the fund remains in Oz




Yeah I didn't want to rely or put this onto a relative here in Oz, adding any as a trustee.*
*


trading_rookie said:


> the 45% tax is a little hard to swallow if you take the money and run, so to speak.




Not taking the money, rolling over into an Oz fund keeping the same tax rules as a resident. Although anyone doing this may find you pay tax in the country your residing. Depends if there is a tax agreement between Oz and other country.


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## hiddencow

Hello all,

Hoping people on here have some experience to help me.

I'm currently with Esuperfund and am looking to change to a different administrator as they do not allow Interactive Brokers any more.

I'm currently going through the process of setting up the IB account for the SMSF name and need some help.

Trust name.
I set everything up through Esuperfund initially. My 'SMSF Name' as on the trust deed is pretty clear. However for the ABN and TFN application forms they have the name is 'The Trustee for SMSF Name'. Thus that is what appears now when I go to superfund lookup. I see that some other funds also have The Trustee for in their name. Anybody know the reason for this, why Esuperfund have set it up as so and whether it matters?

To further complicate things the account name for the SMSF's bank account with CBA states 'Corporate Trustee Name ATF SMSF Name'. The statement is addressed to just SMSF Name in the mailing address though.

When entering the trust name in the IB application form it says to enter it exactly as on the bank statement or wire transfers will not work. Anybody know what I should enter? I think just SMSF Name should be ok as from memory of using IB years ago in my individual name transfers were done to an Australian bank account of IB anyway.

Settlor/Grantor
IB asks for settlors and grantors of the trust. I know a discretionary trust has one but I never encountered this during the setup of the SMSF. Anybody know if SMSFs have a settlor/grantor or what I should put in this section?

Many thanks for any help offered,


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## Cam019

Hey all,

I just want to know if anyone here uses esuperfund but *does not* use the recommended platforms on their website. _e.g. you don't use their EBROKING platform to purchase ASX shares but you might use SelfWealth instead. Hence, esuperfund can't access your electronic data for annual compliance requirements meaning you have to provide that information to them every year._

I'm looking at setting up my own SMSF but I'm wondering how much more difficult they make the process if you don't use their recommended financial institutions and brokers that they can access electronic data for.

I was hoping for this to be a fairly streamlined process so I do like the idea of them being to access the data for annual compliance requirements. However, I was just hoping not to have to pay Commsec brokerage prices which is what esuperunds EBROKING platform mimics.


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## basiac

Cam019 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I just want to know if anyone here uses esuperfund but *does not* use the recommended platforms on their website. _e.g. you don't use their EBROKING platform to purchase ASX shares but you might use SelfWealth instead. Hence, esuperfund can't access your electronic data for annual compliance requirements meaning you have to provide that information to them every year._
> 
> I'm looking at setting up my own SMSF but I'm wondering how much more difficult they make the process if you don't use their recommended financial institutions and brokers that they can access electronic data for.
> 
> I was hoping for this to be a fairly streamlined process so I do like the idea of them being to access the data for annual compliance requirements. However, I was just hoping not to have to pay Commsec brokerage prices which is what esuperunds EBROKING platform mimics.



HiCam19

I am using CMC with Esuperfund. The setting involves a few extra steps during the annual compliance but its not very difficult and they making it easier every year  .  You have to upload all you trades and bank (broker) transactions using a sample excel format. Once you "master" this is a peace of cake.

But before you do anything just make sure that they will allow you to deal with  your choice of broker.

Hope this helps

Barbara


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## Cam019

basiac said:


> But before you do anything just make sure that they will allow you to deal with  your choice of broker.




Hi Barbara,

On esuperfunds website is says that _"Clients of ESUPERFUND are permitted to use any Broker to invest in Australian Shares and Other Australian Listed Securities for their SMSF"._

What did you mean by check if they will allow me to deal with my choice of broker? It says we are permitted to use any broker we like. Have you had a different experience?


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## basiac

Cam019 said:


> Hi Barbara,
> 
> On esuperfunds website is says that _"Clients of ESUPERFUND are permitted to use any Broker to invest in Australian Shares and Other Australian Listed Securities for their SMSF"._
> 
> What did you mean by check if they will allow me to deal with my choice of broker? It says we are permitted to use any broker we like. Have you had a different experience?



My apologies, been with them for such a long time so did not have an idea they have changed their rules about using different brokers.  In this case just go ahead and open the account.  Just in case you'll have problem with the annual return just ask them, they easy to deal  with and very quick to respond to any queries.

Good luck

B


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## SuperGlue

Anyone has action on this yet.
Need a bit of suggestion/opinion.
Remain with Comsec switch over to ANZ or ebroking.
Is ebroking under any large Aussie banks?

Not much choice and also my personal account is with CommSec.

If my SMSF with Esuperfund is switched over to ANZ or Ebroking will  current holdings considered as a transactions and I’ll have to start all over again.

Appreciate any feedback.


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## SuperGlue

Duhh..
Details are all there. Will be switching over.


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