# How hard is it to make $100k-$200k in forex?



## ptony1948

Hello all.
I've investigated forex briefly.  I like the idea of a market available nearly 7 days a week.  Also understand the big job it would be to learn and trade forex.
What I'm interested in are the following.

How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?

What time is involved say per week(in your opinion) to achieve this?

An idea of what you as a forex trader have achieved, how long it took and what problems you encountered.

My purpose with this questioning is this.  I'm happy to put in the work and time if I see a decent chance of success.

Look forward to your stories.

Ptony1948.


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## cutz

*Re: How hard is it to make $100k-$200k in forex*

Hi Tony,

Have you had any experience trading ?

Don't do forex but IMO a 7day 24hr market sounds like a traders worst nightmare.


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## prawn_86

*Re: How hard is it to make $100k-$200k in forex*

To make $100k with a $1m base should be fairly 'easy', to make it with a base less than $100k would be virtually impossible.

Think of it this way - Surgeons with about 5 or so years experience get paid 200k, so that takes them 13 years to get there. Would you practice for a year then try and demand $200k from a hospital?


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## Naked shorts

ptony1948 said:


> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?




Just as hard as it is to make $100 per year..... consistently.


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## surfingman

Forex is a beast the biggest of all markets, its one of the harder markets to learn in my opinion. 

I had a good go during the downturn, had some strong risk rules so didn't lose much.

Setup a practice account and do some trades, then come back and tell us How hard it is to make 100 - 200K.


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## Wysiwyg

Easy to become addicted to. The experienced players take the mo from the inexperienced players.

 "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run" etc. etc.


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## ThingyMajiggy

150k is nearly $2900 profit every week of the year. That, in any profession is going to take years of study/practice/experience to reach. 

Personally, I try not to look at it from the "ooo how much can I make" perspective, but from the "how consistent can I get my trades" perspective. Concentrate on the trading, not on the money. 

If you think anything is "worth" putting time and effort into, you will have a fair chance of "success". Its totally up to you, there are a million variables in this kind of situation. 

Good luck.


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## >Apocalypto<

*Re: How hard is it to make $100k-$200k in forex*



cutz said:


> Don't do forex but IMO a 7day 24hr market sounds like a traders worst nightmare.




It's not a 7 day market, More like 5.5 day. There's nothing wrong with FX if you approach it with common sense and proper risk management and a decent trading plan.

you can go broke trading any market on margin.........


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## >Apocalypto<

ptony1948 said:


> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?




as hard as you make it. 

concentrate on the process not the desired reward.


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## ptony1948

Appreciated your feedback.

Ptony1948


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## Profit Scenario

ptony1948 said:


> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?




In my opinion chasing the market and numbers will lead to be greedy or dissatisfied (or both).

Instead, you should think and calculate in percentage; that's more realistic approach. I guess you agree that it's not the same making $100k with a $1M initial capital (10%) or making $100k with a $10k capital (1000%).

Anyway, how hard is it? Lot's of hardwork, planning, testing, trading with confidence, discipline and consistency. 
Its not hard - if you love it. 

And I fully agree with that: try to focus on the process and you will get your result as a 'by-product' of your job.


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## Alpha_Bet

ptony1948 said:


> Hello all.
> I've investigated forex briefly.  I like the idea of a market available nearly 7 days a week.  Also understand the big job it would be to learn and trade forex.
> What I'm interested in are the following.
> 
> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?
> 
> What time is involved say per week(in your opinion) to achieve this?
> 
> An idea of what you as a forex trader have achieved, how long it took and what problems you encountered.
> 
> My purpose with this questioning is this.  I'm happy to put in the work and time if I see a decent chance of success.
> 
> Look forward to your stories.
> 
> Ptony1948.




Ptony, your post displays knowledge of someone with early comprehension of market behaviour. Forgive if not true.

Your questions designate your journey.

Am I being difficult/hard to understand?
Welcome


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## cutz

Alpha_Bet said:


> Ptony, your post displays knowledge of someone with early comprehension of market behaviour. Forgive if not true.
> 
> Your questions designate your journey.
> 
> Am I being difficult/hard to understand?
> Welcome




What do you mean ?

If you don't mind me asking.


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## Alpha_Bet

cutz said:


> What do you mean ?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking.




Basically, questions asked suggest quick rich mentality. Apologies to the OP.


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## Akuma99

ptony1948 said:


> Hello all.
> I've investigated forex briefly.  I like the idea of a market available nearly 7 days a week.  Also understand the big job it would be to learn and trade forex.
> What I'm interested in are the following.
> 
> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?
> 
> What time is involved say per week(in your opinion) to achieve this?
> 
> An idea of what you as a forex trader have achieved, how long it took and what problems you encountered.
> 
> My purpose with this questioning is this.  I'm happy to put in the work and time if I see a decent chance of success.
> 
> Look forward to your stories.
> 
> Ptony1948.




Hi mate, I get the sincerity of your question, there are those that want to know how to make the most money in the quickest time possible, I don't believe that is the aim of what you are asking.

I am a FX trader of 8 years, full time FX trader for the last couple, and while I don't quite earn the numbers you suggest, I earn more than enough to keep me out of the long hours, long travelling rut that most people in their fancy city jobs have to do, that downright nearly killed me (cancer at 30). I earn what I need to earn, and I started with a low base due to illness, another year and those numbers are right in the ball park doing exactly the same as what I am doing now, if I want to.

A better question really would have been what types of percentage can you earn from FX, I for example look to average around 5% per month, with no compounding, this would require a base of around 330K. With compounding (as I do, hence the claim above), well things are much better than that. Work out what percentages are possible over time, what base you have, and you have your potential income.

In terms of time, it can become all consuming, especially, if this is your first foray into trading, until you have blown your first account up. If it is your first time, I sincerely hope you do not, but I suspect, like most of us, you will, the markets little way of telling us who is boss. If it is not your first time, well I am sure you have been there and got the T-shirt. 

Like mentioned above, FX is not really a 7 day a week market, it is theoretically 5.5 days, but it is not even really that as Asia hours can be very quiet if you are looking at any type of shorter term trading. Assuming you are in Australia, keep this in mind as the best times to trade if you are day-trading or swing trading will most likely be around dinner time on the east coast and late at night/very early morning.

I wish you the best of luck, if you are going technical, FX is one of the best markets to trade, but find a balance between FX's crazy hours, and your health, your trading balance will thank you for it.


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## chubacca

I would say it would take years of education and practice until you could trade profitably in forex and after that you could start working towards the 200k. But in either case it would be very difficult unless you got lucky .


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## Mr J

ptony1948 said:


> I like the idea of a market available nearly 7 days a week.




5 days, unless you somehow have access to the weekend market. Market "opens" on Monday morning, and "closes" on Saturday morning.



> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?




That will very greatly on many, many factors. Everyone will have a difference answer, but most will resemble "difficult".


> What time is involved say per week(in your opinion) to achieve this?




Another question that can't really be answered. There are too many variables, and those who do make 100k+ may take a couple of hours, or may spend their entire days in front of a few screens.



> My purpose with this questioning is this.  I'm happy to put in the work and time if I see a decent chance of success.




Without knowing anything about you, I can't expect you to do any better than the average beginniner, which is to lose. Most beginners lose, and few seem to be profitable quickly. You may or may not have a decent chance of success.

Can I ask you a few questions?

How would you beat the casino game of roulette? What would it take to get you to bet on a coinflip? How much would you bet? Do you think markets are random, not random, or that it varies on the timeframe? Are you looking to take a technical or fundamental approach?



> The experienced players take the mo from the inexperienced players.




I'd say they take money from less predatory players. I imagine little of the money is directly coming from inexperienced traders. I'd think forex has more dead money than say the stock market.



			
				Prawn_86 said:
			
		

> to make it with a base less than $100k would be virtually impossible.




Why do you think that? What evidence have you seen to suggest that returns >100% are not possible?


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## mazzatelli

Hey J, 
Don't you only paper trade? lol just joking :
Is it going to become one of those threads...


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## Mr J

No, I'm keeping those kind of thoughts to myself .


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## prawn_86

Mr J said:


> Why do you think that? What evidence have you seen to suggest that returns >100% are not possible?




You answered your own question. Most beginners lose. I have no doubt that >100% pa is possible from some people (and have seen proof backing this up from people), but the vast majority of beginners will not be able to do it.


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## Mr J

prawn_86 said:


> You answered your own question. Most beginners lose. I have no doubt that >100% pa is possible from some people (and have seen proof backing this up from people), but the vast majority of beginners will not be able to do it.




That's fine. I was looking at it from an absolute point of view, rather than the expectations of a beginner (which is obviously more appropriate for the thread).


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## lukeaye

ptony1948 said:


> How hard is it to make $100k--$200k a year?
> 
> What time is involved say per week(in your opinion) to achieve this?
> 
> An idea of what you as a forex trader have achieved, how long it took and what problems you encountered.
> 
> 
> Ptony1948.




Im not really much of a forex trader. But i can give you my experience in learning the markets and trading profitably.

I don't make 100k a year, yet, but i have a small capital base.

You probably shouldnt be looking at it in terms of how much time will i need to give each week to make the money, but the appropriate question is;

How much time will it take me to become profitable enough to trade full time? Thats the hard question. For me its taken 3 years. And its not easy work.  years without making money, just sort of moving sideways, and losing bits here and there. I still work full time as well, i dont trade fulltime. Its a side income for me, because i still dont make enough to live off it.

Once you have mastered your strategies and techniques, then you will not have to trade 24 hours a day 5 days a week to make that sort of money.

I spend maybe 2 or 3 hours a day trading. 30 mins setting up my trades and 2hours a day looking for emereging set ups. But thats trading stocks, not forex.


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## lasty

There are several factors to consider when trying to make X
Market movements, capital outlay,risk and market information.
Most retail traders rely on technical positions via charts however the professional traders at large institutions use market info ie capital
flows etc.
This info is vital to gain advantage over your peers.
Pure technical traders will dismiss it but it's a great weapon in your armoury since FX isn't exchange regulated.
You will need to align yourself with those in the know instead of relying on platform demos and software which vendors try to lure you in with.
I suggest you do your homework and look for mentors who have had years of experience in the professional markets to show you the pitfalls rather than getting sucked into expensive charting packages which are run by charlatans who have no actual experience trading.
Good luck


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## IFocus

An old market joke not far from the truth

"How hard is it to make $100k-$200k in forex?"

Its easy just start with a $1 million


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## aufxpro

Hi Tony, 
I am new to this site however not new to the markets , i have been trading for 16 years and in particular FX for 6....I can now earn 100 k a year starting with 10K.. I have traded basically every market there is and find the GBPUSD the easiest and most rewarding i have ever done...You will never make the money you ask for without help my friend ..its a long hard slog starting from scratch....i know as i teach people to trade .

All the best Aufxpro


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## lukeaye

aufxpro said:


> Hi Tony,
> I am new to this site however not new to the markets , i have been trading for 16 years and in particular FX for 6....I can now earn 100 k a year starting with 10K.. I have traded basically every market there is and find the GBPUSD the easiest and most rewarding i have ever done...You will never make the money you ask for without help my friend ..its a long hard slog starting from scratch....i know as i teach people to trade .
> 
> All the best Aufxpro




So when are we going to hear about your sale?

You earn 100k a year with 10k a year by taking poeples money for teaching.


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## lasty

Do I sense some doubt here about making 100k out of 10k ?
I've seen guys make 100k in 3 months out of 20k
Like I said before these guys are in the know have the contacts and
don't rely on charts.
They don't over trade and leverage high on certain directional flows.
Brokers don't want to hear that.
They make money from active traders, give you all the bells and whistles to make you trade constantly.
The odds are stacked against you.


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## aufxpro

Interesting comments ,,I feel sorry for you Lukaye that you judge people so easy ,i would doubt you have little success in trading as well ...seems alot of sceptascism around,   it can definitely be done and without inside information etc and using only charts AND NO  indicators , they are all useless and not consistent..and something like 5 years of consistently searching and developing  strategies that not only work but give reliable profit targets for trades.I dont make my money from sales ,or am one of the Fx sharks ,as that is not my goal in life , i see the teaching as helping people through  what i went through for the first 8 years ,however i am one of the few that just never gave  and i dont have the negative mentality that it cant be done .(That phrase is not in my vocabulary) or  anyone that can is full of S....
I will tell you 2 things :the most important is a reliable broker not a bucket shop  that takes the opposite side of your trades..
            Secondly have a look at when the markets move every day , i trade the GBP USD, get rid of indicators have a clear chart and look at the specific time frames when things happen daily then devise a strategy and then see if there are times of the month it works better and times it doesnt ,make a road map.


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## adobee

I was going to right some replies but decided not too..  Surprised you guys have time to write on the forum if you are busy making your 1000% returns.. Imagine if you used that 100k you made instead of 10k you could have 1million dollars and the infinity dollars ...

I think this thread is rubbish ...


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## Wysiwyg

adobee said:


> Surprised you guys have time to write on the forum if you are busy making your 1000% returns.. Imagine if you used that 100k you made instead of 10k you could have 1million dollars and the infinity dollars ...




At 100K per year I wouldn't need to convert anyone. More little fish in the pool the merrier though.


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## lukeaye

aufxpro said:


> Interesting comments ,,I feel sorry for you Lukaye that you judge people so easy ,i would doubt you have little success in trading as well ...seems alot of sceptascism around,   it can definitely be done and without inside information etc and using only charts AND NO  indicators , they are all useless and not consistent..and something like 5 years of consistently searching and developing  strategies that not only work but give reliable profit targets for trades.I dont make my money from sales ,or am one of the Fx sharks ,as that is not my goal in life , i see the teaching as helping people through  what i went through for the first 8 years ,however i am one of the few that just never gave  and i dont have the negative mentality that it cant be done .(That phrase is not in my vocabulary) or  anyone that can is full of S....
> I will tell you 2 things :the most important is a reliable broker not a bucket shop  that takes the opposite side of your trades..
> Secondly have a look at when the markets move every day , i trade the GBP USD, get rid of indicators have a clear chart and look at the specific time frames when things happen daily then devise a strategy and then see if there are times of the month it works better and times it doesnt ,make a road map.




Wow i take it all back! you do sound good!

I can provide statements, can you? Or don't you believe in results?

If your lifes goal is to help poeple, and you have a genuine interest in helping others, then will you provide your obviously extensive knowledge for free?


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## lukeaye

Wysiwyg said:


> At 100K per year I wouldn't need to convert anyone. More little fish in the pool the merrier though.




I don't think you get it! Its not about the money at all!

Its all about helping people!

Maybe he should try going down to the soup kitchen and volunteering if he genuinely wants to help


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## lukeaye

nunthewiser said:


> Geeez and i thought I was the cranky one around ere




nun oyu cant tell me you cant see whats comming


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## wayneL

$100k from $10k eh?

Let's do the numbers.

Let's presume we're talking USD

With 250 trading days a year, we need to make $400 per day.

If trading futures,that's 35 ticks a day on average if trading Euros.

If trading GBP that's 70 ticks, on average, *every single trading day of the year*.

With 10 k we probably only want to trade 1 lot.















































BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!


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## nunthewiser

lukeaye said:


> nun oyu cant tell me you cant see whats comming





From here it looks like yet another guru spiel that promices the world but shows nothing ...

Personally i tend not to believe ANYONE here that mentions dollar amounts as over my tender years have noticed one thing ....... those that have money dont mention how MUCH money  ............ 

Just for the record . Statements posted here mean squat to me also . we all seen how easy it is to knock up a few fakeys or the use of demo accounts to try and impress the minions ........ 

Happy to sit here and be impressed by yet another gigazillionaire that telling me how to suck eggs but not actually providing me with one .


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## vincent191

"Inside information" or "Good Broker Advise" when trading forex??? Yes sure !!! I didn't know you guys were good mates with George Soros.

The only certainity when trading fx is Monday comes after Sunday. There is no certainity in trading commodities, it all boils down to lots of research, luck, capital and a good feel for the market. 

If making heaps of $$ is so easy we will all be millionaires!!


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## professor_frink

wayneL said:


> $100k from $10k eh?
> 
> Let's do the numbers.
> 
> Let's presume we're talking USD
> 
> With 250 trading days a year, we need to make $400 per day.
> 
> If trading futures,that's 35 ticks a day on average if trading Euros.
> 
> If trading GBP that's 70 ticks, on average, *every single trading day of the year*.
> 
> With 10 k we probably only want to trade 1 lot.
> 
> BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!




trading 1 lot for every 10K in an account, adding 1 contract every time you made 10K and stop scaling at 10 contracts, netting 10 ticks out of the euro after costs each and every day for 250 trading days would see the account well past 100K by the end of the year.

an average of 10 ticks a day on the euro isn't out of the question IMO(well not for the past couple of years it's not)


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## wayneL

professor_frink said:


> trading 1 lot for every 10K in an account, adding 1 contract every time you made 10K and stop scaling at 10 contracts, netting 10 ticks out of the euro after costs each and every day for 250 trading days would see the account well past 100K by the end of the year.
> 
> an average of 10 ticks a day on the euro isn't out of the question IMO(well not for the past couple of years it's not)




1/ What do you live on?

2/ If there are other cash reserves to live on, we must consider our capital at substantially greater than $10K

3/ If working a full time job, we must consider a risk of ruin of some number of  magnitudes greater than that if trading full time.

Your scenario is an entirely different proposition.


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## CFD

lukeaye said:


> So when are we going to hear about your sale?
> You earn 100k a year with 10k a year by taking poeples money for teaching.




Gee, no one criticised your views (even though some may not agree with them).

You may or may not be right (and you have no idea which) but what a nice way to welcome someone to the forum!


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## professor_frink

wayneL said:


> 1/ What do you live on?
> 
> 2/ If there are other cash reserves to live on, we must consider our capital at substantially greater than $10K
> 
> 3/ If working a full time job, we must consider a risk of ruin of some number of  magnitudes greater than that if trading full time.
> 
> Your scenario is an entirely different proposition.




Only have an answer for number 1 - Mrs Frink

yeah there are always going to be quite a few other factors involved in whether something like that can be done, just thought I'd point out how scaling can impact on returns that can be generated.

Personally I think it's also a good example of what can be achieved when you don't have to draw down on your trading capital for living expenses


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## outback

With my knowledge of forex I reckon I could make 100K out of 200K in heaps less than a year.


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## aufxpro

Unreal ,How do all you guys ever get anywhere in life?
Thanks CFD You got it pretty much spot on .... it was a tremendous welcome ,however it doesnt bother  me at all ,as at the end of the day i dont have to prove anything to anyone and have no intention of doing so . I only help positive people as they help themselves..
Guess i came on here to chat with like minded people and yes to help those battling for free ,however never expecting the amount of negativity and agressiveness that surrounds the FX markets and the people that trade them .
It would seem every one on here  has been burned or in the process of loosing money .Thats how it goes to start , have been there done that and divorced as well to add to it..
Well all i can say is guys, i do it , it can be done ,so instead of knocking those that do,  have a good look at yourself and why you are so bitter and disolusioned and help yourself, as i am definitely not going to offer any assistance after todays replies.
I wish you guys all the best for the New Year , maintain a positive attitude or u will never achive anything from trading..
Good Luck 
Mark Hills


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## wayneL

professor_frink said:


> Only have an answer for number 1 - Mrs Frink




I have obviously failed to train Mrs wayneL adequately. 

I can make a horse do any circus trick I want.... women, I am putty. LOL


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## wayneL

aufxpro said:


> Unreal ,How do all you guys ever get anywhere in life?
> Thanks CFD You got it pretty much spot on .... it was a tremendous welcome ,however it doesnt bother  me at all ,as at the end of the day i dont have to prove anything to anyone and have no intention of doing so . I only help positive people as they help themselves..
> Guess i came on here to chat with like minded people and yes to help those battling for free ,however never expecting the amount of negativity and agressiveness that surrounds the FX markets and the people that trade them .
> It would seem every one on here  has been burned or in the process of loosing money .Thats how it goes to start , have been there done that and divorced as well to add to it..
> Well all i can say is guys, i do it , it can be done ,so instead of knocking those that do,  have a good look at yourself and why you are so bitter and disolusioned and help yourself, as i am definitely not going to offer any assistance after todays replies.
> I wish you guys all the best for the New Year , maintain a positive attitude or u will never achive anything from trading..
> Good Luck
> Mark Hills





Recommended reading ==>> "Fooled By Randomness" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb


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## Pager

Its the hardest market along with options to trade (not that any are easy), there was an explosion of firms offering forex and some with very little required in your account, they also spouted the so called "no brokerage" trading which sucked alot of people in many with small accounts, most would have done there dough.

Like any job, trading takes time and time to learn and gain experience, also needs to be well capitalised to succeed, you do get the odd person making $$$$$$$$$$$ from a very small account in the beginning but these people are few and far between.

Trading in my experience is a famine or a feast, i only trade futures and in the last 5 years i have had 3 years of triple digit returns (2005, 2007, 2008) and 2 years of not much at all or nothing (2006), in 2009 i made a whopping 7%  but 2008 returned over 200% 

To return $100K - $200K in any market you really need over $250K and its still a big ask plus if your trading full time you will still need to draw on your account for living expenses so in a bad run your going to struggle especially mentally, yes it can be done though but you really need the groundwork and experience before even contemplating it.


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## wayneL

Firstly - Is it possible to turn $10k into $100K in a year?

Of course.

Is it possible to turn $10k into $1mill in a year?

Yes, it's possible.

But as traders we deal in probabilities.

How probable is it to do the above?

If possible, can it be taught?

As ever, the actual statistics prove an invaluable guide.

My advice to anyone is to consult the stats.


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## Trembling Hand

aufxpro said:


> Guess i came on here to chat with like minded people and yes to help those battling for free




BS. Not only is this guy full of it he seems to be selling a course in Australia without an Australian Financial Services license to do so.

SCAM. in that regard at a minimum.


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## nunthewiser

blessya


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## wayneL

Trembling Hand said:


> BS. Not only is this guy full of it he seems to be selling a course in Australia without an Australian Financial Services license to do so.
> 
> SCAM. in that regard at a minimum.




Long time no hear TH.

Good to see you. 

(How's that for mixed modalities )


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## MS+Tradesim

Yay! TH is back. Missed ya, mate. 

Though I haven't been around much myself anyways.


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## lukeaye

aufxpro, after seeing the professionalism of your website, i too would like the lifestyle i deserve. Please take my money. I beg you. I want to look happy like the people on your website


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## Trembling Hand

Just passing by my friends. Will not be around much this year either. Got some real money to swing around cannot spend all day outing scammers, big time paper traders & the deluded when there's money just lying all over the place.


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## MS+Tradesim

TH,

How's the KOSPI going? Or are you partners with Paul Rotter now? 

I found a moneytree in FX. Been busy pruning it. :


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## Trembling Hand

MS+Tradesim said:


> TH,
> 
> How's the KOSPI going? Or are you partners with Paul Rotter now?
> 
> I found a moneytree in FX. Been busy pruning it. :




Haven't got that far yet on the KOSPI. Mostly HSI but "discovered" the deep and delicious CL (Crude) 

Good one on the FX game. Its exciting when it all clicks together. And never mind if it doesn't you can always move on to scamming people with $15500 course


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## wayneL

Trembling Hand said:


> ...but "discovered" the deep and delicious CL (Crude)






If I hadn't sacrificed my powers of concentration to the liquid amber, I wouldn't trade anything but on an intraday basis.


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Haven't got that far yet on the KOSPI. Mostly HSI but "discovered" the deep and delicious CL (Crude)




he he, it is a delicious discovery that one!  

Iceberg city!

WayneL, agreed 100%, I would do the same if I had the stomach to swing for the rafters in the pit session and it didn't give me insomnia!  

Still, there are a few juicy trades in the day (Asian) session if you ignore the spread and thin vol and hit it hard when the time is right!


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## Mr J

Pager said:


> To return $100K - $200K in any market you really need over $250K and its still a big ask plus if your trading full time you will still need to draw on your account for living expenses




You're suggesting that performance expectation is limited to 40-80%?


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## Trembling Hand

Mr J said:


> You're suggesting that performance expectation is limited to 40-80%?




Considering people do this to take money not just build it up and the need to pay tax and holiday etc. Not even considering the MANY MANY dry patches and even the MANY months where you go backwards are you saying that a long term trader can achieve a much higher return over the long run (greater than 5 years)?


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## Mr J

> are you saying that a long term trader can achieve a much higher return over the long run




No, I'm asking a question. I saw no reference "long term", and by this do you mean timeframe or career-length?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Mr J said:


> No, I'm asking a question. I saw no reference "long term", and by this do you mean timeframe or career-length?




Well you have to talk long term. You wouldn't take a job if the employer said I'm going to pay you 100K per year but it may average 40K over 5 years. There is no point taking 6 months results and thinking thats what your next 5 years are going to be like.

I thought Pages post was a good one. One from an experienced trader. "famine or a feast" is exactly what I see as a trader. You have to run your business like that. Always stashing the acorns away for winter. As soon as you start smokin' the market I can guarantee you that market is about to change and you will have to re-learn your approach. You better have a good pile of acorns to get you through. These periods will pull you avg yearly return down big time.

(who the hell would want to be a trader with all that bother :freak3


----------



## DaveMac

So true - I would imagine if someone did make large $$$$$$ from a small account they would either be:

1: Risking too much per trade (and would consequently give it all back when the market changed)

2: Trading a hell-of-a-lot, and have large brokerage eat away at the gains.

I know some people can do it, but they're like star athletes - few and far between.  Consistency is the key.


----------



## Mr J

TH, I'm not saying performance will be consistent from year to year, I'm just asking why he thinks a 40-80% return is as good as it gets, if that is what he meant.



> As soon as you start smokin' the market I can guarantee you that market is about to change and you will have to re-learn your approach.




Seems to me that the more the markets change, the more they stay the same. Markets may change in some ways, but in others they are consistent. Human behaviour drives the markets, and that is predictable and consistent.


----------



## lukelee

strongly recommend you to win your first $100k in a demo account before enter the real market.


----------



## wanlad1

Personally I think it would be quite achievable by scalping, however you would need to be incredibly disciplined for 1.  Secondly minimise your time in the market, just be on during the times that suited your strategy.  Thirdly do not over trade and once target reached for the day shut down.  On negative days just accept and close down.  

The problem is sticking to the above I fail thus I fail with forex, shame about that.


----------



## lasty

lukelee said:


> strongly recommend you to win your first $100k in a demo account before enter the real market.






DaveMac said:


> So true - I would imagine if someone did make large $$$$$$ from a small account they would either be:
> 
> 1: Risking too much per trade (and would consequently give it all back when the market changed)
> 
> 2: Trading a hell-of-a-lot, and have large brokerage eat away at the gains.
> 
> I know some people can do it, but they're like star athletes - few and far between.  Consistency is the key.




Fx markets aren't consistent. There are some days when the market lulls and other days when it's volatile.
Trying to make x per day is wishful.
There are times whereby you up the ante and other times you sit out.
Trading the same amount day in day out IMO is not the correct way to play.
Using high leverage to optimise on certain trades is a must.


----------



## vincent191

You soon learn who is real and who is not in this forum. I am always wary on promises of quick riches. If money is so easy to make the streets will be paved with gold.

How do I get anywhere in life with that attitude? Well, I certainly did not get rich quick but neither am I in the poor house. 

I agree with the advise of some of the more prudent bloggers here. Be consistent, have reasonable expectations and beware of the risks and don't expect the sun to shine everyday. It's gotta rain sometimes and when it does make sure you can withstand the storm.

Cheers


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## Trembling Hand

lasty said:


> Fx markets aren't consistent. There are some days when the market lulls and other days when it's volatile.
> Trying to make x per day is wishful.




*XACTLY*. 

Stopping when you are having a good day because you have reach some "target" is setting up for an average day way way under that target. Good way to start the blow up I reckon. Even pulling back after a good week or month is silly. Like I said above you can guarantee it will change sooner rather than later. Mostly not to your advantage.


Mr J said:


> Seems to me that the more the markets change, the more they stay the same. Markets may change in some ways, but in others they are consistent. *Human behaviour drives the markets, and that is predictable and consistent.*




CLICHE ALERT!! 

Mr J I think you have been trading for 1 year? In that time you started trading Index Futs (SPI & STW) with small tick charts saying that the game was "easy". I think you are now trading FX on hourly charts still saying its easy. That's a classic example of what I'm talking about. Either you never really made any $'s on the futs and had to look else where or you did have a good approach for a while but it ultimately broke and had to look and learn else where(FX & Hourlies)? Why the change surely you where not getting sick of making easy money already? 
That's why Pages post was on the money. famine or a feast. Your above post, with all the due respect I can muster, shows a lack of experience IMNSHO.


----------



## MS+Tradesim

lasty said:


> Fx markets aren't consistent. There are some days when the market lulls and other days when it's volatile.
> Trying to make x per day is wishful.
> There are times whereby you up the ante and other times you sit out.
> Trading the same amount day in day out IMO is not the correct way to play.
> Using high leverage to optimise on certain trades is a must.




Agreed. I would add, don't try and force anything. Either the market is delivering trades that meet your strategy or it is not. Wait until the money is there to be picked up then go collect it.


----------



## lasty

Let me just add here that Model trading normally uses the same amount (exposure)everytime.
I've never like them for that reason whereas human interaction is somewhat less disciplined but can be more profitable when not overtrading.
There has been too much emphasis on risk management with a conservative tone.These ideals infact make people over trade because the focus on the profit and loss, ie they work out their P/L first before trading.
The title of this thread is an example.


----------



## skc

Market is dynamic, and market dynamics itself is dynamic. The market changes so quickly it is often hard to realise things have changed when you are head deep in it.

I think one of the most neglected aspect of any system development / backtest is under what market situation would that strategy be useful...a macro on/off switch so to speak.

One thing I started doing within my pairs trading is a MA on equity and MA on win rate. If both starts to look ugly, I stand back a bit and look at what's going on. I found that a useful tool as an "off" switch at least.




prawn_86 said:


> Think of it this way - *Surgeons with about 5 or so years experience get paid 200k, *so that takes them 13 years to get there. Would you practice for a year then try and demand $200k from a hospital?




Where do you get this data from? A fully qualified surgeon consultant could be on $1-2m in the private system. Not sure about the public system but $200K sounds too low... fit for a GP, not a surgeon.



Trembling Hand said:


> CLICHE ALERT!!




Welcome back...grumpy old man... Looks like breathing those toxic air in Hong Kong is not helping you mellow out!

Why is TH always appear grumpy? May be due to the fact that, on days where he post a lot, he's hit his daily stop loss already.


----------



## Trembling Hand

skc said:


> Welcome back...grumpy old man... Looks like breathing those toxic air in Hong Kong is not helping you mellow out!
> 
> Why is TH always appear grumpy? May be due to the fact that, on days where he post a lot, he's hit his daily stop loss already.




Hehheheh. Nah its the opposite. I'm at my most grumpy and displeased when I'm smokin the market.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

Trembling Hand said:


> Hehheheh. Nah its the opposite. I'm at my most grumpy and displeased when I'm smokin the market.




so true...

good to see you back TH........ howz life in Honkers going?


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## Trembling Hand

>Apocalypto< said:


> howz life in Honkers going?




Not yet there. lots of paper to pass over very slow moving desks yet it seems!!!!!!!!!


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## >Apocalypto<

Trembling Hand said:


> Not yet there. lots of paper to pass over very slow moving desks yet it seems!!!!!!!!!




o right, are you going to live there for a while or live / work?


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## Trembling Hand

>Apocalypto< said:


> o right, are you going to live there for a while or live / work?




Top secret i could tell ya but then I'd have to kill ya


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## alwaysLearning

Trembling Hand said:


> Top secret i could tell ya but then I'd have to kill ya




If I'm a betting man, and I am, I'd bet that you've found a prop firm over there (or someone willing to back you) and you are trying to sort things out so you can trade from over there. :

One can only speculate 

I hope that whatever you're trying to do over there works out for you though


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## Trembling Hand

alwaysLearning said:


> If I'm a betting man, and I am, I'd bet that you've found a prop firm over there (or someone willing to back you) and you are trying to sort things out so you can trade from over there. :
> 
> One can only speculate
> 
> I hope that whatever you're trying to do over there works out for you though




Wrong


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## alwaysLearning

Trembling Hand said:


> Wrong




If not that then I wonder what it could be?--I have no idea opcorn:


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## ThingyMajiggy

alwaysLearning said:


> If not that then I wonder what it could be?--I have no idea opcorn:




Just pick up his bread crumbs around here, you'll figure it out


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## Mr J

Trembling Hand said:


> CLICHE ALERT!!




Doesn't mean it's not true. I think the reverse statement is the cliche. I rarely see someone suggest markets remain the same, but regularly see people claim that markets always change, that we need to adapt to survive and that the same method won't work year after year. I also think that's a load of BS, to an extent. The phrase "always changing yet always the same" fits it perfectly in my opinion, which is why I used it. 

You should be happy my view is overly simplistic and ignorant, you need fresh money in the market :.



> Why the change surely you where not getting sick of making easy money already?




I didn't have to look elsewhere. I traded forex before I traded futures, and I switched back for the lower required margin and more flexible position size. I have changed my approach a few times, mostly in the first few months, and more recently by trading slower timeframes. I'm not going to say trading is easy, because it's a subjective statement and one that has caused a lot of friction in the past.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Mr J said:


> I didn't have to look elsewhere. I traded forex before I traded futures, and I switched back for the lower required margin and more flexible position size. I have changed my approach a few times, mostly in the first few months, and more recently by trading slower timeframes.




So you where making money trading a couple of hours a day on indexes but you moved away from making money on something because you wanted lower margins 

Interesting


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## nomore4s

Mr J said:


> I didn't have to look elsewhere. I traded forex before I traded futures, and I switched back for the lower required margin and more flexible position size. I have changed my approach a few times, mostly in the first few months, and more recently by trading slower timeframes. I'm not going to say trading is easy, because it's a subjective statement and one that has caused a lot of friction in the past.






Trembling Hand said:


> So you where making money trading a couple of hours a day on indexes but you moved away from making money on something because you wanted lower margins
> 
> Interesting




I also find this interesting.

Mr J, I remember having a running discussion with you about your claims regarding how easy trading is and that doubling your money was going to be no problem at all. 

It appears that maybe it isn't so easy and you're not quite as profitable as you would like to make people believe?


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## Naked shorts

While we're at it... Mr J, can you change your avatar pic yet?!!


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## Mr J

Trembling Hand said:


> So you where making money trading a couple of hours a day on indexes but you moved away from making money on something because you wanted lower margins
> 
> Interesting




I don't care about the market I trade, but the strategy I use. My current strategy suits me perfectly, and it is better used on forex at the moment. I don't have a large amount of capital and I'm reasonably aggressive with what I do have, so the lower margin requirements of forex and more flexible position sizing are very important. 

Why did I change? Because the strategy I was using for futures (and forex before that) didn't suit me. Short-term trading, glued to the monitor etc just isn't my thing. I wasn't putting in the effort, so I changed to a strategy that better suits my personality.



			
				nomore4s said:
			
		

> Mr J, I remember having a running discussion with you about your claims regarding how easy trading is and that doubling your money was going to be no problem at all.
> 
> It appears that maybe it isn't so easy and you're not quite as profitable as you would like to make people believe?




I didn't say doubling money was easy, I said trading was easy. I don't care how profitable others think I am, and haven't tried to pass myself off as anything other than what I am. Whatever conclusions people draw are their own assumptions.

Back to topic?



> While we're at it... Mr J, can you change your avatar pic yet?!!




Sure.


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## graham_h

Bond Uni do a dgree corse in commerce that lasts two years.
They have a trading room set up.
That'd be the best way I'd reckon
Graduate from there and work for one of the major banks


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## Naked shorts

graham_h said:


> Bond Uni do a dgree corse in commerce that lasts two years.
> They have a trading room set up.
> That'd be the best way I'd reckon
> Graduate from there and work for one of the major banks




Dont you need money to go to Bond?


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## Trembling Hand

graham_h said:


> Bond Uni do a degree course in commerce that lasts two years.
> They have a trading room set up.
> That'd be the best way I'd reckon
> Graduate from there and work for one of the major banks




Interesting. And what do they do in this trading you?

I'd be very surprised if that was the "best" way considering how quickly academic theory breaks down once its applied to the market with real $'s but interested to hear what they do.


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## surfingman

graham_h said:


> Bond Uni do a dgree corse in commerce that lasts two years.
> They have a trading room set up.
> That'd be the best way I'd reckon
> Graduate from there and work for one of the major banks




Can't see any floors in that comment! 

I thought along the same lines when I was at Uni, reality is far from this unfortunately. You will be starting from the bottom and working your way up, the best way is know someone who can get you a start with a good company and can help you along the way.

Although I did finish just before the GFC, but hey I hope this works for you Graham.


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## graham_h

I'm not going to bond Uni
My point was if you want to be a "trader" not necessarily Forex, I would say to make good money doing, it would be a good idea to get qualified

This guy did and he's going ok ;-)
http://www.farleigh.com/


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## Knoxy

My experience is that trading is about mastery of self. Therefore 'the' university is the markets trading real money, not an academic institution. But I guess I studied engineering at uni rather than trading so no first hand experience. Also don't believe you learn that much paper trading, completely different story with $s at stake.

Recently XAUUSD and GPBJPY have had over 200 pt daily range and you can easily switch when the next pair's volatility takes off. If your method can't consistently take 20 - 30 pt out of a 200pt daily range as some suggest above, you might as well give up trading forex.


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## Mr J

Knoxy said:
			
		

> Also don't believe you learn that much paper trading, completely different story with $s at stake.




You can still see the markets move, so there's plenty to be learned.



			
				graham_h said:
			
		

> My point was if you want to be a "trader" not necessarily Forex, I would say to make good money doing, it would be a good idea to get qualified




How does study of maths, economics etc make one "qualified" for an activity they did not study?


----------



## Knoxy

Mr J said:


> You can still see the markets move, so there's plenty to be learned.




Agreed, I wasn't saying there is nothing to be learned by paper trading. My advice to a newb would still be to open a nano account, realising the likelihood of losing a couple of hundred bucks but being exposed to the full learning experience. Why restrict yourself to half the subject paper trading? (unless you're too broke in which case fx isn't for you anyway...)

As far as learning maths etc., I feel my analytical background ie. degree and 25 y engineering is the basis of my trading method. I can see maths background as useful if folk want to go that way.


----------



## MRC & Co

Knoxy said:


> Agreed, I wasn't saying there is nothing to be learned by paper trading. My advice to a newb would still be to open a nano account, realising the likelihood of losing a couple of hundred bucks but being exposed to the full learning experience. Why restrict yourself to half the subject paper trading? (unless you're too broke in which case fx isn't for you anyway...)




And then those on 'nano' accounts, always remain that way, am yet to see anyone step up and do good size who starts on an account that small.

Use a SIM, refine your strategy, and replicate it live.  It will be a lot easier to start hitting size when your doing it successfully on the SIM anyways.


----------



## Trembling Hand

MRC & Co said:


> And then those on 'nano' accounts, always remain that way, am yet to see anyone step up and do good size who starts on an account that small.
> 
> Use a SIM, refine your strategy, and replicate it live.  It will be a lot easier to start hitting size when your doing it successfully on the SIM anyways.




XACTLY.


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## vincent191

Interestingly enough I have received a couple of unsolicitated emails recently promoting courses to trade forex. I have also heard a few ads on radio promising quick returns trading fx. 

One of the common themes is a woman who sounds like an ordinary housewife saying "I have learnt how easy & profitable it was to trade fx and now I earn a good income by just trading a few hours everyday from home."

The email promotes a system whereby you can trade fx profitably regardless of whether the share market goes up or down. Readers are offered an invitation to attend a free seminar. I suspect "strong arm" tactics will be applied to sell you one of those sure fire systems during the seminar.

My personal belief is that trading fx is NOT for everybody and with every kind of investment especially betting on which way the market will move involves a large degree of risk. The higher the promised return and easy money the higher the risk. 

Where have all the flowers gone, Oh when will they ever learn.....Bob Dylan.


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## Mr J

Knoxy said:


> My advice to a newb would still be to open a nano account, realising the likelihood of losing a couple of hundred bucks but being exposed to the full learning experience. Why restrict yourself to half the subject paper trading? (unless you're too broke in which case fx isn't for you anyway...)




Paper/nano is pretty much the same. We will only learn and develop our emotional and mental limits when we play with amounts that are meaningful to us. 



> As far as learning maths etc., I feel my analytical background ie. degree and 25 y engineering is the basis of my trading method. I can see maths background as useful if folk want to go that way.




I'm sure it can help, but how many others with your background would make for a good trader? How much importance should be placed on your ability to transfer and apply that knowledge?



			
				vincent191 said:
			
		

> One of the common themes is a woman who sounds like an ordinary housewife saying "I have learnt how easy & profitable it was to trade fx and now I earn a good income by just trading a few hours everyday from home."




Yes, I've seen that one. Gave me a good laugh.



> My personal belief is that trading fx is NOT for everybody




It's not for most. People will generally make poor traders for the same reasons that most people are poor gamblers.


----------



## jersey10

Mr J said:


> It's not for most. People will generally make poor traders for the same reasons that most people are poor gamblers.




MrJ
Can you elaborate on this? I would be interested to hear your thoughts


----------



## Trembling Hand

jersey10 said:


> MrJ
> Can you elaborate on this? I would be interested to hear your thoughts




My guess is they don't play the numbers they play their ego. Wanting the big win, wanting to be right, forcing their needs onto the outcome.


----------



## Mr J

Pretty much. They look for the winners or the big score, with a poor understanding of probability, risk, reward, variance, price etc. In sportsbetting for example, most people look to pick "winners", usually favourites, and with little regard to current and historical price, or price at other betting shops. It's not so much trading and gambling, but any activity that requires analysing price and probability. For whatever reason people just don't seem to do it well naturally, despite the fact that it is a critical skill for survival (we do these calculations subconsciously over and over every day).


----------



## Knoxy

MRC & Co said:


> And then those on 'nano' accounts, always remain that way, am yet to see anyone step up and do good size who starts on an account that small.
> 
> Use a SIM, refine your strategy, and replicate it live.  It will be a lot easier to start hitting size when your doing it successfully on the SIM anyways.




Think you're missing the point I was attempting. A nano account is a SIM account but with money involved. You can develop the same strategy in both, the demo account with it's extra zeroes has no extra advantage.

I don't advocate trying to build a nano into a full trading account. Just saying if someone new to FX with say 50k risk money comes along, they should consider trading a nano account first with a small portion to have some minimal 'skin in the game' rather than muck around for 6 months on a demo. They can open the real trading account but would first experience some of what having real money at stake involves. Don't think I'm alone in saying most traders act differently between demo and real and it's important to learn this about oneself.


----------



## BradK

Hi, 

I am interested in beginning to have a think about trading FOREX. 

Is it mainly charts? Or, fundamentals - for example, the AUS is likely to go up on interest rate rise news, and the US dollar is likely to fall on inflation fears??? 

Where would be a good place to start? Any advice? 

Thanks
Brad


----------



## tko

It depends on how much you have to play with to begin with.  You could make that in 1 trade if you trade conservatively on a 1mill account.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

tko said:


> It depends on how much you have to play with to begin with.  You could make that in 1 trade if you trade conservatively on a 1mill account.




Great post.....


----------



## >Apocalypto<

BradK said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am interested in beginning to have a think about trading FOREX.
> 
> Is it mainly charts? Or, fundamentals - for example, the AUS is likely to go up on interest rate rise news, and the US dollar is likely to fall on inflation fears???
> 
> Where would be a good place to start? Any advice?
> 
> Thanks
> Brad




Hi Brad, 

baby pips school is a starting point to go over the basics.

Then i would suggest you buy a book called, *Fx Trading: An Australian Guide to Trading Foreign Exchange by Douglas* great book I have read it many times. 

from there you will need to work out the way you plan to tackle it... no shorts cuts sorry to say just hard work and practice. 

good luck on the Journey


----------



## Liar's Poker

I thought I’d try and answer the OP's question, very simplistically.  Please note that I have a very little understanding of the Foreign Exchange market, so at worst… this should be interesting.

Firstly, I thought I would try and understand your question a little more before answering it. After much dilemma, I concluded "hard" was being used as an adjective and not an adverb (I had to question the context of the word make). I went onto dictionary.com and looked up the definition of "hard". As an adjective, it had 41 definitions (Can't post link due to post count - accessed 17/01/2010). 

I believe five of these definitions can be applied to you question (hard), these are:

3. difficult to do or accomplish; fatiguing; troublesome: a hard task.  
4. difficult or troublesome with respect to an action, situation, person, etc.: hard to please; a hard time.  
5. difficult to deal with, manage, control, overcome, or understand: a hard problem.  
6. involving a great deal of effort, energy, or persistence: hard labor; hard study.  
7. performing or carrying on work with great effort, energy, or persistence: a hard worker.

Ironically, these five above definitions are probably the answer to your question. This should come as no surprise, as I think you knew it, you just needed confirmation. Otherwise you would have asked “how easy is it to make $100k-$200k in forex?”


----------



## Globalex

lukeaye said:


> Im not really much of a forex trader. But i can give you my experience in learning the markets and trading profitably.
> 
> I don't make 100k a year, yet, but i have a small capital base.
> 
> You probably shouldnt be looking at it in terms of how much time will i need to give each week to make the money, but the appropriate question is;
> 
> How much time will it take me to become profitable enough to trade full time? Thats the hard question. For me its taken 3 years. And its not easy work.  years without making money, just sort of moving sideways, and losing bits here and there. I still work full time as well, i dont trade fulltime. Its a side income for me, because i still dont make enough to live off it.
> 
> Once you have mastered your strategies and techniques, then you will not have to trade 24 hours a day 5 days a week to make that sort of money.
> 
> I spend maybe 2 or 3 hours a day trading. 30 mins setting up my trades and 2hours a day looking for emereging set ups. But thats trading stocks, not forex.




Just like to ask your opinion on Aufxpro as you mentioned it in one of your reply. I am thinking of getting into FX trading. Do you reckon Aufxpro is a good place to start?


----------



## Captain_Chaza

Wrong Question!
How many traders have made >$100,000 - $200,000  that are not insiders and  are not in Gaol  ATM  is  a better question IMHO


----------



## investtrader

Well I made close to 10millionUSD in 2 years paper trading using Trading View paper trading account.  How? Huge leverage that I would never use in real life. I don't trade currency , just mucked around for interest. I only made about 30 trades - haven't really checked.


----------



## investtrader

Forgot to mention, the account that you get has a 100k USD starting balance. I only traded 2 pairs.
Good way to start if you are interested in trading FX.


----------



## wayneL

Trading returns in any instrument is a function of capital employed, an edge (positive expectancy), and risk control.

...and mental discipline.

Therefore 100-200k is even easily achievable if you have enough capital, an edge, good risk control especially risk of ruin and mental discipline.

Additionally, currency markets are subject to government intervention, as we have seen recently. When governments or Central Banks step in, you can get mercilessly head stomped.

Put another way don't make a prison of your own creation and find yourself bending over to pick up the soap in the shower block.


----------



## willoneau

investtrader said:


> Well I made close to 10millionUSD in 2 years paper trading using Trading View paper trading account.  How? Huge leverage that I would never use in real life. I don't trade currency , just mucked around for interest. I only made about 30 trades - haven't really checked.



I noticed little slippage and practically no spread when paper trading. Wait until you trade live that is an eye opener.


----------



## investtrader

willoneau said:


> I noticed little slippage and practically no spread when paper trading. Wait until you trade live that is an eye opener.



Actually I have no intention of trading forex, especially with the leverage I used on the trial account. Very easy to wipe out your whole account and a lot more with a left field move.


----------



## willoneau

Yes position sizing is very important


----------

