# Destructive asylum seekers - gone too far?



## Greg (21 April 2011)

I watched in disappointment the news coverage of the riots in Villawood and I have to say my reaction was "right, round them all up and deport the lot of them!". I have a real problem with uninvited guests coming to my country, wrecking the accommodation I provide for them out of my tax dollars, and expecting me to remain sympathetic to their cause, irrespective of the circumstances.
I know there is a huge debate around the reasons they're here in the first place. I know I can expect outrage from our more crazed humanitarians, but I'm keeping it simple here; just send them back, I don't want them here. They're not demonstrating to me that they will become good citizens, so deport them.
It doesn't fix the underlying problem I know, but I've had enough of this unacceptable behaviour.


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## Calliope (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

It's not a matter of deporting them. The process is much simpler. We don't allow people with criminal records as immigrants. They have now earned criminal records for arson and vandalism.They should go back on the next plane.

The only snag is that the countries they come from do not want them back..and who can blame them. They are well rid of trouble makers.


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## Knobby22 (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



Calliope said:


> It's not a matter of deporting them. The process is much simpler. We don't allow people with criminal records as immigrants. They have now earned criminal records for arson and vandalism.They should go back on the next plane.
> 
> The only snag is that the countries they come from do not want them back..and who can blame them. They are well rid of trouble makers.




True, they have no case now. Get rid of the law breakers asap.


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## spooly74 (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

I can't believe they're still sitting on the roof.
Where's the water cannon gone?

Next plane out.


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## noco (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



Greg said:


> I watched in disappointment the news coverage of the riots in Villawood and I have to say my reaction was "right, round them all up and deport the lot of them!". I have a real problem with uninvited guests coming to my country, wrecking the accommodation I provide for them out of my tax dollars, and expecting me to remain sympathetic to their cause, irrespective of the circumstances.
> I know there is a huge debate around the reasons they're here in the first place. I know I can expect outrage from our more crazed humanitarians, but I'm keeping it simple here; just send them back, I don't want them here. They're not demonstrating to me that they will become good citizens, so deport them.
> It doesn't fix the underlying problem I know, but I've had enough of this unacceptable behaviour.




I'll drink to that Greg. This stupid government of ours has only themselves to blame, just like all the other stupid decisions they have made. Perhaps we should deport JU-LIAR back to Wales and promote Kevin 11 to the UN. Problem solved!!!


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## sails (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



Knobby22 said:


> True, they have no case now. Get rid of the law breakers asap.




Agree, but also divert future boats back to Nauru or back to Indonesia.  

Unfortunately, these criminal types that are coming in by boat are going to make it even more difficult for genuine refugees to come here.

And it's hard to believe that criminals can come here by boat without documentation and yet genuine, lawabiding people are made to wait in overseas refugee camps.

I think it's time the genuine ones were given a fair go rather than gambling with these boat arrivals where many may simply be using loopholes in our refugee policies and defrauding the Aussie tax payer.


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## Whiskers (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



Greg said:


> I watched in disappointment the news coverage of the riots in Villawood and I have to say my reaction was "right, round them all up and deport the lot of them!". I have a real problem with uninvited guests coming to my country, wrecking the accommodation I provide for them out of my tax dollars, and expecting me to remain sympathetic to their cause, irrespective of the circumstances.
> I know there is a huge debate around the reasons they're here in the first place. I know I can expect outrage from our more crazed humanitarians, but I'm keeping it simple here; just send them back, I don't want them here. *They're not demonstrating to me that they will become good citizens, so deport them*.




Exactly. There should be no question about this. 

How can they complain about the conditions in the detention centerers that they get for free, after what they tolerated in those boats, err floating junk heaps, that they paid money for the 'privilege' of being on. 




> It doesn't fix the underlying problem I know, but I've had enough of this unacceptable behavior.




I think if they were immediately deported the message would get out that bad behavior will earn a fast trip back to whence they came.


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## skyQuake (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

ok i'll bite.

How long have they been there now? 4,5 years? Holed up in what is essentially a prison.

Either ship them out or let them stay. You cant just keep a human being in "detention" indefinitely and say HERP DERP WE ARE PROCESSING UR CLAIM
Some absolute rubbish govt ideas..


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## startrader (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



skyQuake said:


> ok i'll bite.
> 
> How long have they been there now? 4,5 years? Holed up in what is essentially a prison.
> 
> ...




Where did you get the 4.5 years from?  From what I have read they have been there 20 months and their claims for asylum have been rejected.


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## breaker (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

Still dont give em the right to burn the joint down


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## albaby (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

I came home from work this morning to the smell of smoke through my house and the sight of a huge pall of smoke to the south, . My taxes going up in flames,cannot believe that people feel sorry for these cretins.Sorry for the rant.Al


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## startrader (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



breaker said:


> Still dont give em the right to burn the joint down




Oh I totally agree.  The previous poster was implying that these poor refugees had been locked up for 4.5 years and so they were justified in what they did.  I think it's a good idea to get your facts right when making claims like this.

In my opinion the way this government is handling this issue is a total disaster and the sooner we are rid of this pathetic government, the better!


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## trainspotter (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*

Don't want to be picky but I do believe that the word ASYLUM only has one "S" in it.

Have been waiting for someone to pick it up. Could not help myself any longer.

ASS Y LUM is something completely different altogether. Look at the title of this thread for clarification.


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## Julia (21 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



startrader said:


> Oh I totally agree.  The previous poster was implying that these poor refugees had been locked up for 4.5 years and so they were justified in what they did.  I think it's a good idea to get your facts right when making claims like this.
> 
> In my opinion the way this government is handling this issue is a total disaster and the sooner we are rid of this pathetic government, the better!



Yet when rigorously questioned on government policy on asylum seekers on "7.30" this evening, the Minister, Chris Bowen, rigidly refused to admit their so called policy is a total mess, or even that - in the face of clear rejection by East Timor - their idea of a regional, um, clearing house, in East Timor is dead in the water.

All so utterly stupid when Nauru is all set up, the Nauruans want the detention centre back again, but this pathetic government refuses to adopt this totally viable alternative because it would look as though they had failed to come up with their own solution and had to fall back on that which so clearly worked when the Libs were in power.

Further, Mr Bowen is talking tough about punishing the people responsible for the riots and arson on both Christmas Island and Villawood, but I wonder how much this will actually translate into action.

He should immediately be either putting those responsible (and they know who they are apparently) on a plane back to their country of origin, or else charging them appropriately so that they will be moved out of the relative comfort of their detention centre into a mainstream prison, then deported when they have served their term.

If the government fails to act, then the outcome is obviously going to be even more people rushing to the lucky country where we reward people for setting our buildings on fire and assaulting our fire service by throwing rooftiles at them.

These are not the people we should even be thinking about letting in to Australia.

Meantime, those who have applied via the UNHCR in a proper fashion continue to be pushed further back while the Dept of Immigration tries to grapple with the current mess.


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## pixel (21 April 2011)

So true, Julia and others:
Put the ring leaders in jail and give them the choice: either a law suit with appropriate prison sentence, followed by deportation, or immediate deportation back to their country of origin.

But in tonight's TV report on the issue, an "expert" advocate played the whole sordid affair down as "... but you have to understand what drove these poor asylum seekers to riot ..."
So, it's our fault that we take so long establishing their identity - which they deliberately sabotage by destroying their id papers. Yet this "civil libertarian" suggests we release all comers into the community, like we do with people that overstay their visa. 
And nobody tells this clown, Hey mate, there is a difference! A visitor that has come with a visa, we know where they come from and who they are! They have assisted our administration in verifying their bona fides. But those backdoor sneakers make that assessment difficult if not impossible, and then they whinge when it takes that much longer.

Yup - Nauru is a good idea. Some compound in Kabul might be even better...


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## sails (21 April 2011)

It's hard to believe that anyone can try to excuse this behaviour.  If Aussie citizens deliberately set fire to anything, they face criminal charges and possible jail time.

Surely these people should not be given Australian citizenship when they show so little respect for the country that houses, feeds them and a few other cosy perks.

To claim they are mentally unstable is no excuse, IMO.  Martin Bryant and Ivan Milat have had to face the full force of the law and both are possibly mentally disturbed individuals.  To see those youths on the roof of the building pelting roof tiles at our firemen is beyond belief.  They don't seem to give a thought that our firemen and police have families - this is very unAustralian, IMO.


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## startrader (22 April 2011)

We have asylum seekers rioting (for the second time this month), burning down the detention centre's medical centre, laundry, computer room and kitchen at a cost of millions of dollars and, as far as I understand there are still some of the rioters on the roof with their mobile phones - what a joke!

We have boat loads of asylum seekers arriving practically every week (which almost goes unreported by our media now).  We have detention centres being built in practically every state in Australia, at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.

We have do gooders saying these poor people should be releassed into the community and Greens saying there should be a time limit on the detention of asylum seekers.  

How much is this whole issue costing this country a year?  All this and this government continues to do the same thing and just throw more money money at the issue.

It seems to be the same recipe for everything they deal with - lets see how much money we can throw at this.

The only reason that they are getting away with spending vast amounts of money is that the spending is covered under our foreign aid spending, which labor has doubled to $4.5 billion per year and is doubling again.  Should still give them plenty more to throw away on this issue.


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 April 2011)

*Re: Destructive assylum seekers - gone too far?*



trainspotter said:


> Don't want to be picky but I do believe that the word ASYLUM only has one "S" in it.
> 
> Have been waiting for someone to pick it up. Could not help myself any longer.
> 
> ASS Y LUM is something completely different altogether. Look at the title of this thread for clarification.




Thanks trainsspotter.

gg


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## Glen48 (22 April 2011)

The biggest problem is the image portrayed of OZ on Sat. TV when you broadcast shows like Home and Away  the viewers assume the place is the land of milk and honey and forget about meeting the 69,00000000 virgins and want to go to OZ.
 Home and Away could not be further from the real truth and it sucks them in.
They don't know that OZ has the highest amount of debt per person, biggest house's and a 12 speed economy and most are supported by B/cards and OZ people are spending 60% more than they earn on cards.

Here in the Philippines were the average wage is 1.2K PA  they don't know you need to earn that much each week to just keep out of poverty.

OZ is shown as a land only they can dream of as they go around collect cardboard. tins or pushing a banana trolley just to make money for food for the day why wouldn't they want to try and come over even what they have in a D. center is luxury to a dirt floor they share with the chickens.


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## Judd (22 April 2011)

startrader said:


> We have boat loads of asylum seekers arriving practically every week (which almost goes unreported by our media now).  We have detention centres being built in practically every state in Australia, at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.




I believe you will find that more illegals have and will come through our airports than arrive via boats.  Personally I wouldn't have the guts to travel to Oz by boat given the quality of the vessels used.  Far easier to do a runner through air travel.


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## BigAl (22 April 2011)

Some do gooder will come on here and say after 6 months, 1 year, 3 years or whatever locked up, what did you expect?

I say when the navy intercepts these boats in open waters, the boat & people should be sunk.  No one in Oz needs to now about it.

Would stop the damn pesky fleas overnight.


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## startrader (22 April 2011)

Judd said:


> I believe you will find that more illegals have and will come through our airports than arrive via boats.  Personally I wouldn't have the guts to travel to Oz by boat given the quality of the vessels used.  Far easier to do a runner through air travel.




I believe that I won't find that more illegals come by air than boat.  According to the Australian Federal Police the majority of illegal immigrants arriving in Australia at the moment are coming by boat from Indonesia.  

Also, the people who come here through our airports have documentation with them (as opposed to the ones who come by boat who mostly don't).  I fail to see how it is easy to do a runner when the government has your details.

Anyway, even if it were true (which it's not), what does it have to do with the current discussion?  In my opinion all the above comments regarding this topic are still just as valid.


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## Glen48 (22 April 2011)

Think you are right Judd I know of 2 cases were women were sponsored by victims to walk in to OZ at the airport do their 2 yrs and then become 100% OZ with migration supporting them over OZ men born in the place.. While you vote  it will never change hold your vote until some one wakes up and delivers commonsense.


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## nunthewiser (22 April 2011)

Rubber bullets, tear gas, zip lock ties.

Free plane trip, dumped on runway at country of origin still bound.

simple really.


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## basilio (22 April 2011)

> I say when the navy intercepts these boats in open waters, the boat & people should be sunk. No one in Oz needs to now about it.
> 
> Would stop the damn pesky fleas overnight.






> Rubber bullets, tear gas, zip lock ties.
> 
> Free plane trip, dumped on runway at country of origin still bound.
> 
> simple really.




Are we talking about men, women and children here or some sort of other world non-human vermin that need to be eradicated like lice or rats? Perhaps some forum members would opt for a final solution perhaps? As long as its done quietly of course. 

After all we are honest to goodness Australians....

___________________________________________________

Not happy.


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## Judd (22 April 2011)

Glen48 said:


> Think you are right Judd I know of 2 cases were women were sponsored by victims to walk in to OZ at the airport do their 2 yrs and then become 100% OZ with migration supporting them over OZ men born in the place.. While you vote  it will never change hold your vote until some one wakes up and delivers commonsense.





Maybe.  I just look at the data on the boat arrivals since 1976

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bn/sp/boatarrivals.htm#_Toc285178607

And the Dept of Immigration stats indicating that there some 50,000 illegal immigrants not including the boat arrivals.  I assume that the number includes those who deliberately overstay their 457 visa's and stuff like that.

I don't happen to agree with the destruction at the Villawood detention centre but if you're angry enough and frustrated enough with a decision or the length of time it takes to make a decision, yeah, I suppose it would be easy enough to do your nar nah.  However, once you have done that, you had better be prepared for the consequences because there will be such.


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## derty (22 April 2011)

BigAl said:


> I say when the navy intercepts these boats in open waters, the boat & people should be sunk.  No one in Oz needs to now about it.
> 
> Would stop the damn pesky fleas overnight.






basilio said:


> Are we talking about men, women and children here or some sort of other world non-human vermin that need to be eradicated like lice or rats?



It's alright bas, they have brown skin and worship the wrong god. They're not like us.


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## Glen48 (22 April 2011)

You  can't see the good points: Man meets Mail order bride on Net Telstra makes money, Male loads up bankcard, banks make money, Male get gift's flys over seas gift shops airlines make money

Male pays Migration fee or migration agent money all make money, She comes here with 's one intention to get a free trip to OZ   airlines  , taxi's, hotels ,make money,

 She finds the best legal minds of migration that is those who speak her language and goes off and get pregnant then a whole new world is open to her

Male thinks his life is turning around spends money on baby items, She hang in the marriage for a few years then apply for legal aid after all she is foreign and not OZ citizen so are entitled to more,

 She get translator/lawyer  get a divorce get 50%+ of the assets and Commonwealth Suicide Assistance aka CSA  lawyers make money CSA employes more females,. She now owns your family's assets kids and Father fight her, more money for lawyers , courts taxi's hotels etc.

Having to  pay CSA to some woman who won't let him see his child/s, Police time doing  DVA's /AVO's she has done up to keep him away, court time, the male could be in jail more warden's more  money,money 

Male can't work and pay CSA so goes on the dole, at his age has to start again with nothing. 
 He suicides undertaker make money the money the taxpayer would have paid to him in his pension now supports her.

She works undercover and lives on nothing.  Chinese restaurant gets cheap labour we get cheap meals more money to go around.

Why not come to the Lucky ( for Some ) country
 Who looses Australia, Taxpayer and the victim all the rest have taken his blood.


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## noco (22 April 2011)

So Minister Bowen phones the rioting asylum seekers on their mobile phones to entice them down off the roof!!!
How did these crims get mobile phones?

How much did they cost?

Who paid for them?

Maybe they need them to book in for their free dental appointment.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ng_the_protesers_personally_to_beg_them_stop/


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 April 2011)

The asylum seekers and economic queue skipping migrants in detention, are behaving as any normal person would.

Faced with a queue for citizenship, they act out, to advance their individual or family cause.

This is understandable.

What is not acceptable is the theory driven Green/Socialist agenda that says that all who wish to settle in Australia, should be allowed to do so.

Historians of the future will excoriate the ALP and the Socialist/Greens for this stain on Australia.

gg


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## Country Lad (22 April 2011)

One thing that does not sit well with me is that many of the "refugees" are reasonably young Afghan males who are coming here expecting a better life while our soldiers are dying over there fighting for the Afghans' freedom. 

I would prefer they are back there supporting our troops so that less of ours may die fighting for the Afghanis.


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## So_Cynical (22 April 2011)

Glen48 said:


> You  can't see the good points: Man meets Mail order bride on Net Telstra makes money, Male loads up bankcard, banks make money, Male get gift's flys over seas gift shops airlines make money
> 
> Male pays Migration fee or migration agent money all make money, She comes here with 's one intention to get a free trip to OZ   airlines  , taxi's, hotels ,make money,
> 
> ...




LOL and to think you could of avoided all that in the first place if you had just moved to the philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Panama, Ecuador etc years ago.


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## noco (22 April 2011)

Country Lad said:


> One thing that does not sit well with me is that many of the "refugees" are reasonably young Afghan males who are coming here expecting a better life while our soldiers are dying over there fighting for the Afghans' freedom.
> 
> I would prefer they are back there supporting our troops so that less of ours may die fighting for the Afghanis.




Yes exactly. I have been stating this on more than one occassion in previous posts and in our local newspaper.
I also stated previously, if they refuse to go back and do their bit, tattoo a white feather on their arms and still send them back as cowards.


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## noco (23 April 2011)

When in God's name will this stupid Juliar Gillard bury her pride and revert back to Howard's Pacific solution. Issue protection visas and reopen Nauru.

This Labor Party policy of open borders is completely in tatters and out of hand.

Stop the boats. Stop wasting tax payers money. Stop the crime.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...umn_the_torching_of_labors_deadly_compassion/


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## Julia (23 April 2011)

I don't believe that those who are still sitting on the roof, apparently being supplied with food and water, should be allowed to carry on.  The police should be told to get them off and they should then be taken to Silverwater, put in jail with those already being held there, and charged.  

Unless this pathetic government makes a definitive move against this behaviour, it will spread, further encouraging more arrivals to a land which offers impunity to the criminal actions of arson and assault.

Why on earth are these people being indulged in being allowed to stay on the roof?


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## sails (23 April 2011)

I agree Julia.  What next will be set alight if they think they can thumb their noses at Australia?

I didn't think criminals could become Aussie citizens - doesn't this ruin their chances?  But then, we have a spineless labor government who may not have the fortitude to deal with this effectively.


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## startrader (23 April 2011)

After the December 2009 riot on Christmas Island 11 boatpeople were charged. Of these, eight had their charges dismissed. Three were convicted, two being placed on a good behaviour bond and one fined. *Each of these three were granted a visa late last year. *

Defies belief really doesn't it?  If that's not encouraging bad behaviour I don't know what is!  Plus, it's an open invitation to the asylum seekers to demand what they want.


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## sails (23 April 2011)

Yes, it does defy belief.  I googled it and found it on Bolt's blog: 

More where the Villawood rioters came from

Why is labor so spineless?


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## Julia (23 April 2011)

startrader said:


> After the December 2009 riot on Christmas Island 11 boatpeople were charged. Of these, eight had their charges dismissed. Three were convicted, two being placed on a good behaviour bond and one fined. *Each of these three were granted a visa late last year. *
> 
> Defies belief really doesn't it?  If that's not encouraging bad behaviour I don't know what is!  Plus, it's an open invitation to the asylum seekers to demand what they want.



I couldn't believe this either when I read it.  However, the op ed piece by Paul Kelly in today's "The Weekend Australian" sheds some light on the government's difficulties in this regard.  Too complicated to go into here, but to do with pretty complicated legislation re character test.

If Labor were not so stupidly spineless they would simply change the legislation.
The Libs would soon get it fixed.

I can remember thinking that Chris Bowen might be a half decent Prime Minister.
Have since changed my mind in the light of his pathetic floundering and inaction in the present circumstances.


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## noco (23 April 2011)

Julia said:


> I couldn't believe this either when I read it.  However, the op ed piece by Paul Kelly in today's "The Weekend Australian" sheds some light on the government's difficulties in this regard.  Too complicated to go into here, but to do with pretty complicated legislation re character test.
> 
> If Labor were not so stupidly spineless they would simply change the legislation.
> The Libs would soon get it fixed.
> ...




Well I cannot resist to comment that Chris Bowen has far less personality than Barnaby Joyce to have any leadership qualities. Bowen is full of himself and lies through his teeth to save his own skin on the numerous mistakes he has made.

Pleased to read you have changed your mind on Bowen for he is an absolute twerp.


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## Glen48 (23 April 2011)

So>cynical: thats what is happening to most divorced men and agree my lawyer should have told me earlier to get out like most other nationalities are now doing all over the world... most will sit there and go down with the good ship OZ.
It s about as water proof as any thing from Indo.


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## Happy (27 April 2011)

Greg said:


> I watched in disappointment the news coverage of the riots in Villawood and I have to say my reaction was "right, round them all up and deport the lot of them!". I have a real problem with uninvited guests coming to my country, wrecking the accommodation I provide for them out of my tax dollars, and expecting me to remain sympathetic to their cause, irrespective of the circumstances.
> I know there is a huge debate around the reasons they're here in the first place. I know I can expect outrage from our more crazed humanitarians, but I'm keeping it simple here; just send them back, I don't want them here. They're not demonstrating to me that they will become good citizens, so deport them.
> It doesn't fix the underlying problem I know, but I've had enough of this unacceptable behaviour.




As we know now, most roof-dwellers were refused visa, some were waiting for deportation some were waiting for tax payer funded appeal court cases.

We are being taken for a ride, as none of them come with any papers, all they have is a story, often learned sure-thing story that will definitely in result give visa.

All queue jumpers should be deported to show, that Australia is signatory to UN asylum agreement and we do not border with country that resident can qualify to be considered for asylum.

All those smart queue jumpers have plenty of money since they can afford expensive boat trip.
Sooner Greens realise and withdraw their support for this deception the better.


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## sptrawler (27 April 2011)

The good thing about hunger strikes is, as Margret Thatcher said, they are self resolving.


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## Calliope (27 April 2011)

At least, the antics of these thugs at Villawood have answered the question as to whether terrorists are slipping through the net. They couldn't wait to get into the community to commit their acts of terrorism so they had a practice run while still in detention.

They will however, be released into the community after due process, and be free to follow their natural instincts, and they have a wide network of supportive groups who make no secret that they want the illegals to keep coming.


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## noco (27 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> At least, the antics of these thugs at Villawood have answered the question as to whether terrorists are slipping through the net. They couldn't wait to get into the community to commit their acts of terrorism so they had a practice run while still in detention.
> 
> They will however, be released into the community after due process, and be free to follow their natural instincts, and they have a wide network of supportive groups who make no secret that they want the illegals to keep coming.




Yes, Wilson "Iron Bar" Tuckey was right when he said before the last election that there was bound to be terrorists entering Australia and mingling in with asylum seekers.


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## derty (27 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> At least, the antics of these thugs at Villawood have answered the question as to whether terrorists are slipping through the net. They couldn't wait to get into the community to commit their acts of terrorism so they had a practice run while still in detention.



What a load of crap Calliope.


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## noco (27 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> At least, the antics of these thugs at Villawood have answered the question as to whether terrorists are slipping through the net. They couldn't wait to get into the community to commit their acts of terrorism so they had a practice run while still in detention.
> 
> They will however, be released into the community after due process, and be free to follow their natural instincts, and they have a wide network of supportive groups who make no secret that they want the illegals to keep coming.




I agree Calliope, it may not have been 9/11 but it sure as hell has all the hallmarks. It was a terrorist act and it was fortunate nobody was killed or injured.

Some ASF members might think it is 'crap' but one can expect similar acts to follow particularly if any of these crims are allowed to stay.


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## trainspotter (27 April 2011)

I fail to see how burning down my house of detention will bring me favour for a visa?


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## sails (27 April 2011)

trainspotter said:


> I fail to see how burning down my house of detention will bring me favour for a visa?




Because they know they can get away with it?


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## nunthewiser (27 April 2011)

I,m personally very insulted that these tossas are vandalising and spitting on the accomodation and genorosity i have provided for them as a taxpayer.

does anyone know of any accomodation within potatoe gun range of the compound as i would like to sit in my hotel room and take potshots at the pr!cks with my new super  dooper spud gun just so i can get a bit of satisfaction in this matter.

Its like inviting someone to dinner and they spit on your kitchen floor .........oh except this mob of disrespectful numnuts were not invited in the first place.


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## trainspotter (27 April 2011)

Some of your work there Nun ?

*A man is in a critical condition after being shot in the head with a potato gun in a forest in central western NSW.*

The 24-year-old man was camping with friends in Gurnang State Forest, south of Oberon, when a potato gun discharged, striking him in the head about 2am (AEST) on Saturday, police said.

http://coffsharbour.iprime.com.au/i...man-critical-after-being-shot-with-potato-gun


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## nunthewiser (27 April 2011)

trainspotter said:


> Some of your work there Nun ?
> 
> *A man is in a critical condition after being shot in the head with a potato gun in a forest in central western NSW.*
> 
> ...




I have an alibi for that night.


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## trainspotter (27 April 2011)

nunthewiser said:


> I have an alibi for that night.




You were not with me? By the way we need to christen the mezzanine floor at Bradford Street. Get your people to talk to my people ASAP .........


----------



## Calliope (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> What a load of crap Calliope.




As I said, and you confirm;



> they have a wide network of supportive groups who make no secret that they want the illegals to keep coming.


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## derty (28 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> As I said, and you confirm;



I failed to follow your logic before and fail to follow it now. Please explain?


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## Calliope (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> I failed to follow your logic before and fail to follow it now. Please explain?




I failed to follow your "load of crap" invective. Please explain.

I suppose on the "derty scale" these guys were just making a peaceful protest against the inhuman conditions they were held under. My "logic" (as you call it) is that you and your ilk excuse their illegal actions.


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## derty (28 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> I failed to follow your "load of crap" invective. Please explain.



You got 1+1 and tried to make it equal 3. You claimed that the rioting proved that these guys were in fact terrorists. It does nothing of the sort. You then went on to imply that they were so terrorist that they couldn't wait to get out into the community and start terrorising Australians and just had to start there and then. 

And then even more amusingly noco  chimed in and tried to make 1+1=20 by saying that this had all the hallmarks of 911! 

If parallels are to be made it would be with a prison riot. It was a criminal activity, not a terrorist one.

No wonder you guys live in a perpetual state of fear with all the negative fantasising you subject yourselves to. 



Calliope said:


> I suppose on the "derty scale" these guys were just making a peaceful protest against the inhuman conditions they were held under. My "logic" (as you call it) is that you and your ilk excuse their illegal actions.



You know nothing of "my ilk". On my scale what these detainees did was commit criminal acts. It should void their application process and they should be deported.


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## pilots (28 April 2011)

nunthewiser said:


> I,m personally very insulted that these tossas are vandalising and spitting on the accomodation and genorosity i have provided for them as a taxpayer.
> 
> does anyone know of any accomodation within potatoe gun range of the compound as i would like to sit in my hotel room and take potshots at the pr!cks with my new super  dooper spud gun just so i can get a bit of satisfaction in this matter.
> 
> Its like inviting someone to dinner and they spit on your kitchen floor .........oh except this mob of disrespectful numnuts were not invited in the first place.




Mate one ton of potatoes on the way to your house, give me your address.


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## Calliope (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> You claimed that the rioting proved that these guys were in fact terrorists. It does nothing of the sort.



 A terrorist is one who terrorizes. 


> *ter·ror·ize *
> [ter-uh-rahyz]  Show IPA
> –verb (used with object), -ized, -iz·ing.
> 1.
> ...



.


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## derty (28 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> A terrorist is one who terrorizes.
> 
> ter·ror·ize
> [ter-uh-rahyz] Show IPA
> ...



So which of the three were they committing whilst confined within the detention centre?


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## Calliope (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> So which of the three were they committing whilst confined within the detention centre?




The lot.


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## derty (28 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> The lot.



OK. Well if you can rationalise that, one can see how you reach your other conclusions. Carry on.


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## Calliope (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> OK. Well if you can rationalise that, one can see how you reach your other conclusions. Carry on.




Thanks derty. Terrorism was around long before they had bombs and the main weapon of intimidation and destruction was *arson.*


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## noco (28 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> Thanks derty. Terrorism was around long before they had bombs and the main weapon of intimidation and destruction was *arson.*




Yes Calliope, remember GUY FAWKES (think that is how one spells it).

Any way, perhaps derty would like to swap places with Chris Bowen. Clean up the excreta left on the roof at villawood. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-hard-to-stomach/story-e6frerdf-1226045868641


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## derty (28 April 2011)

noco said:


> Yes Calliope, remember GUY FAWKES (think that is how one spells it).
> 
> Any way, perhaps derty would like to swap places with Chris Bowen. Clean up the excreta left on the roof at villawood.
> 
> ...



um, Guy Fawkes tried to blow up parliament with barrels of gunpowder. i.e. a BOMB. It was he that was burnt.

Ahh yes poo on the roof. It definitely does have all the hallmarks of 911.


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## Julia (28 April 2011)

derty, do you think the protestors should be allowed to stay up on the roof, having food brought to them etc?

If we were to transpose the situation to inmates of an Australian jail behaving similarly, would we be tolerating a similar situation?  Wouldn't the police pretty smartly be directed to bring them down?

I'm not suggesting by asking you this question that you have any responsibility in government or opposition policy.  It's just a question I'm a bit surprised has not been pursued by the media, and I'm interested in what your view would be.


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 April 2011)

Let us be careful not to demonise the refugees who have risked all for a better life.

Labor have a lot to answer for in encouraging dangerous migration by desperate people. 

I could imagine myself caterwauling on a roof if I were in a similar situation.

gg


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## derty (28 April 2011)

Julia said:


> derty, do you think the protestors should be allowed to stay up on the roof, having food brought to them etc?
> 
> If we were to transpose the situation to inmates of an Australian jail behaving similarly, would we be tolerating a similar situation?  Wouldn't the police pretty smartly be directed to bring them down?
> 
> I'm not suggesting by asking you this question that you have any responsibility in government or opposition policy.  It's just a question I'm a bit surprised has not been pursued by the media, and I'm interested in what your view would be.






derty said:


> On my scale what these detainees did was commit criminal acts. It should void their application process and they should be deported.



If the protesters that were on the roof were the same ones that burnt and damaged the centre then they should have been brought down and locked up pending charges.

If they were just up there protesting, not causing damage and not endangering anyone else I can't see a problem with them sitting up there and carrying on. Half the problem is the amount of attention the media gives them. If they were simply ignored they would be off the roof pretty quickly.

It would be interesting to see how you would get them off the roof though. It would be difficult to manhandle them off without seriously endangering the enforcement personnel and the detainee. I know some here would be happy to advocate shooting them or just hosing them off the roof but if one is seriously injured or killed then that will likely instigate more rioting and possibly cause a reaction from members of the same cultural groups already in the community. Weighing that up it is likely more prudent, more expedient and cheaper to let them carry on on the roof than to set off a tinder box.


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## sails (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> ...If they were just up there protesting, not causing damage and not endangering anyone else I can't see a problem with them sitting up there and carrying on. Half the problem is the amount of attention the media gives them. If they were simply ignored they would be off the roof pretty quickly.....




Really?  That roof is going to get pretty smelly - everyone's gotta go to the loo...

So their excrement goes into the gutters or elsewhere - isn't that a health hazzard?  Pretty disgusting in anyone's books.


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## derty (29 April 2011)

sails said:


> Really?  That roof is going to get pretty smelly - everyone's gotta go to the loo...
> 
> So their excrement goes into the gutters or elsewhere - isn't that a health hazzard?  Pretty disgusting in anyone's books.



I jumped into the discussion as I objected to Calliope characterising these guys as terrorists and noco likening it to 911 and now it has been reduced to me being pro them pooing on the roof?? It's great how these things metamorphose. Sheesh


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## trainspotter (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> I jumped into the discussion as I objected to Calliope characterising these guys as terrorists and noco likening it to 911 and now it has been reduced to me being pro them pooing on the roof?? It's great how these things metamorphose. Sheesh




Sense and sensibility seems to have left the room along with the poo down the gutter derty.


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## Miner (29 April 2011)

Asylum seekers became destructive.

It is because we are too nice at Oz.

First of they come and beg asylum. We open our chests both mentally and physically.
Then they rob us. Multiply their numbers. Take our kids inheritance and hard earned tax payers funds. Politicians become extra kind to them for their own glory.

Let us look back why they were kicked off. Torture ? Who verified ? If they felt that way why destruction to your carer ? 

Why not they are sent to China or Saudi for instance?  Because they will give nothing to them or probably hang them. 

I am sure people will shoot me for saying this .

One alternative also could be , just let the police 'accidentally' shoot one of the destructive persons - no will be destructing or seeking asylum to Australia.


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## drsmith (29 April 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Labor have a lot to answer for in encouraging dangerous migration by desperate people.



That's the crux of the matter.

Their solution has been to treat the symptoms while letting the cause run wild. Any government has to stop the boats.


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## sptrawler (29 April 2011)

If they are happy to stay on the roof can we give their rooms to other asylum seekers. It would save building new detention centres. 
Maybe someone could do on audit on the available roof space at the existing centres. 

Actually while they are up there has anyone thought to ask them to check the insulation? LOL.


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## sails (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> I jumped into the discussion as I objected to Calliope characterising these guys as terrorists and noco likening it to 911 and now it has been reduced to me being pro them pooing on the roof?? It's great how these things metamorphose. Sheesh




Sorry, Derty - that isn't how it was intended.  I only challenged your previous statement in an earlier post of yours which said,



> If they were just up there protesting, not causing damage and not endangering anyone else I can't see a problem with them sitting up there and carrying on.




And I responded that there would have to be other problems with excrement.  Didn't say that you would continue to agree once you realised that point, so please don't jump to conclusions...


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## sails (29 April 2011)

Looks like they didn't get enough attention - police and fire rescue have pulled three women from Bowen's office rooftop this morning according to this article:

From SkyNews:  Protesters pulled off Bowen's roof

I wonder how they managed to get them off Bowen's roof, but having so much difficulty at Villawood?


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## Calliope (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> I jumped into the discussion as I objected to Calliope characterising these guys as terrorists and noco likening it to 911 and now it has been reduced to me being pro them pooing on the roof?? It's great how these things metamorphose. Sheesh




Sorry I started you off. I guess I was only engaging in hyperbole or devil's advocate. It's a bad habit of mine. Of course these clowns are not terrorists, and I have no doubt that they will not be rejected for visas.

As a matter of interest, you may remember the riots on Christmas Island in Nov 2009. 150 Afghans and Sri Lankans attacked each other with pool cues, tree branches and broom sticks, and 37 were injured.

Now comes the punch line;


> The Immigration Department has confirmed that three Christmas Island detainees convicted after riots in 2009 were subsequently granted a visa late last year




http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/...-turned-to-jelly/story-fn6bqphm-1226043830732


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## doctorj (29 April 2011)

Miner said:


> First of *they *come and beg asylum. *We* open our chests both mentally and physically.
> Then *they* rob *us*. Multiply their numbers. Take *our *kids inheritance and hard earned tax payers funds. Politicians become extra kind to *them *for their own glory.



We vs. them

Are these just blind prejudices or are these based in anyone's reality but your own??



Miner said:


> One alternative also could be , just let the police 'accidentally' shoot one of the destructive persons - no will be destructing or seeking asylum to Australia.



 Why stop with just shooting these asylum seekers?  Why not go on with shooting all the other people that have come to *our* country in the past 60 odd years as I'm sure some of *them  *steal *our* hard earned tax payers funds??? All the indians, pakistanis, malays, chinese etc etc.


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## sptrawler (29 April 2011)

doctorj said:


> We vs. them
> 
> Are these just blind prejudices or are these based in anyone's reality but your own??
> 
> ...




Mate, there is a standard procedure to apply for asylum. These people rock up on your door unannounced, they have thrown away any identification papers and want to que jump. When they don't get what they want they start burning down the accomodation you supply to them free.
Maybe your idea has merit, let anybody in, get rid of customs and federal police, just have a free for all.
Put it on facebook come to Australia, laid back people, great climate, fantastic social security system, weak as p!!!!!!!!s government. If you have a criminal record don't worry just catch a boat from Bali throw your passport overboard, bypass all the red tape crap.
Jeez doctorj a bit of self analysis wouldn't go astray. 
The reality is most western countries are becomming increasingly concerned by the influx of illegal asylum seekers.


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## doctorj (29 April 2011)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe your idea has merit, let anybody in, get rid of customs and federal police, just have a free for all.



Actually, that's not what I said at all.  I was pointing out that Miner was making brash generalisations about a very large group of people he knows nothing of.



sptrawler said:


> Jeez doctorj a bit of self analysis wouldn't go astray.
> The reality is most western countries are becomming increasingly concerned by the influx of illegal asylum seekers.



 'Self analysis'?  Not sure what you mean here.  People are clearly concerned, but there's quite a large difference between analysis and brazen bigotry.


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## sptrawler (29 April 2011)

If any people are bigoted it is the very people that come here seeking asylum. If we or they, behaved in the manner that they are behaving, did so in their country. I am sure it would not get the t.v coverage they are recieving here. 
However I am sure it would be dealt with in a timely manner. 
It obviously infuriates Minor that with a change of government there has been a relaxation of border protection laws. This has led to a huge increase in illegal asylum seekers which, quite correctly, his and his children will bear the cost of.
I am sure if Minor arrived unannounced and without papers in the countries from whence these people came, they would not dare to behave as these people are.
It is very easy to prey on charitable people, it is rude then to spit on them.
These very same people could have stayed in Indonesia if they only wanted to escape their own country.


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## tothemax6 (29 April 2011)

doctorj said:


> We vs. them
> 
> Are these just blind prejudices or are these based in anyone's reality but your own??
> 
> Why stop with just shooting these asylum seekers?  Why not go on with shooting all the other people that have come to *our* country in the past 60 odd years as I'm sure some of *them  *steal *our* hard earned tax payers funds??? All the indians, pakistanis, malays, chinese etc etc.



And the canadians, britons, afrikaners, and europeans too perhaps? Filtering out the non-whites to imply things about miner? Not on mate. 

Of course, if there is no 'We vs. them', there is no we . A nation-state without a border, that is - without a geo-demographic discontinuity, is neither a nation nor a state.


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## sptrawler (29 April 2011)

doctorj said:


> We vs. them
> 
> Are these just blind prejudices or are these based in anyone's reality but your own??
> 
> ...




That is a very biased and inflammatory statement. Most of the immigants over the last 60 years came here in an orderly manner and lived in hostels untill they were processed.
None to my knowledge other than those in recent history behaved in such an outrageous manner. Especially when they so blatantly disregard normal processing proceedures. 
They treat our border protection laws with contempt and our property with contempt. Yet expect to be treated and accepted with respect, give us a break.


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## white_crane (2 May 2011)

What a sad thread.

To know that there are people out there who actually hold these views is a bitter indictment on humanity.


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## Calliope (3 May 2011)

white_crane said:


> What a sad thread.
> 
> To know that there are people out there who actually hold these views is a bitter indictment on humanity.
> 
> I am the chosen one




Unfortunately most people can't claim you status of being "the chosen one."


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## sails (4 May 2011)

white_crane said:


> What a sad thread.
> 
> To know that there are people out there who actually hold these views is a bitter indictment on humanity.




Who is the bitter indictment on humanity?  Is it these people who burn the accomodation that is provided for them free of charge?  Or is it those who express their concerns at the violent behaviour and the concerns of what is happening overseas to countries who have given a helping hand only to find themselves living in fear for their lives as those they helped do not return the kindness? 

From SMH: Bomb found at Villawood, police say


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## trainspotter (4 May 2011)

white_crane said:


> What a sad thread.
> 
> To know that there are people out there who actually hold these views is a bitter indictment on humanity.




What's the weather like up there?


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## bellenuit (4 May 2011)

*Australia escape from poverty for Afghans*

Economic deprivation rather than fear of persecution is driving Afghan Hazaras to risk their lives to come to Australia, according to a previously secret Government-commissioned report.........

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/9308482/australia-escape-from-poverty-for-afghans/


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## sails (4 May 2011)

bellenuit said:


> *Australia escape from poverty for Afghans*
> 
> Economic deprivation rather than fear of persecution is driving Afghan Hazaras to risk their lives to come to Australia, according to a previously secret Government-commissioned report.........
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/9308482/australia-escape-from-poverty-for-afghans/




This seems incredible that the government has known this and yet done nothing to correct this problem?  What about the genuine refugees who are fleeing persecution that are made to wait even longer due to these economic travellers?

And this is interesting from the article:



> *And in a finding that backs the Federal Opposition's claim that it is "pull" and not "push" factors causing the surge of boat arrivals, the $72,000 research discovered that many Hazaras strongly believed that successfully travelling to Australia illegally guaranteed their refugee status. Of the 7668 unlawful arrivals by boat since January last year, 3306 were Afghan. In this period, only 83 have returned home - most voluntarily - including six Afghans.
> 
> The rejection rate for Afghan refugee claims is about 50 per cent - up from 10 per cent 18 months ago - but 70 per cent of those rejected have refugee status confirmed on appeal.*




So, 50% are rejected, then use our free legal system to appeal.  70% of those appeals are successful - meaning they have learned from their free legal help how to look like a genuine refugee...

And to think that attempts from some posters to make others feel bad for not helping people fleeing persecution when it was clear to anyone with half a brain that *the pull factor* of Australia with it's huge welcome mat to all and sundry was bringing in far more than genuine refugees fleeing persecution.


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## bellenuit (4 May 2011)

*Minister in dark about homemade 'bomb' found at the Villawood detention centre*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...detention-centre/story-fn59niix-1226049918070


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## white_crane (8 May 2011)

Calliope said:


> Unfortunately most people can't claim you status of being "the chosen one."




LOL.  That's it?  Honestly, if you're going to resort to a personal attack, at least make it a good one.



sails said:


> Who is the bitter indictment on humanity?




Those who advocate treating people as something less than human.


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## sptrawler (8 May 2011)

This thread reminds me of something an older wiser person once told me.
"The judges won't start and give out harsh penalties untill they have to take the perpetrator home with them".


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## Calliope (9 May 2011)

white_crane said:


> LOL.  That's it?  Honestly, if you're going to resort to a personal attack, at least make it a good one.




What personal attack?  I made no attempt to discdedit your claim that you are "the chosen one." And from such lofty heights you have every right to lecture others on their behavior.


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## Greg (10 May 2011)

It's hardly a sad thread when close on 100 people (including repeats) have the chance to state their opinion and close on 100% of those recognise that this behaviour (not the very weak justifications that are offered) is totally unacceptable. I stand by my view that they should all have been rounded up and shipped back to their country of origin - no exceptions. Maybe that would send a message back to those who are waiting to try their luck - "it's not just the ones who protest who get sent back, they all do".

It's interesting that recent developments have ignored the intial anger at their behaviour and the political tone has mellowed to be one of "charging the offenders" blah, blah, blah.. Another weak, lame and futile political squirm to get away from the underlying lack of decisive action that was required within the initial 24 hours of the offence.

Thanks for your input everyone


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## sails (14 May 2011)

Serco, the controversial foreign conglomerate that runs Australia's detention centres, originally signed a five-year contract worth $370 million to run the centres until mid-2014.  This has now significantly increased:

Full article from News.com: Detention contractor's $1 billion asylum seeker windfall 



> This week's federal Budget provided some clues into how much Serco could benefit from the detention boom. It predicted the total cost of processing asylum seekers and housing them in detention centres in the year to June 2012 would blow out from a previously-forecast $240 million to $1.1 billion.




and a little clause found in budget papers the excerpt below can be seen about halfway down the page of the following article:




> This week's budget papers reveal that the Gillard government has also granted Serco legal and financial indemnities.
> 
> Serco is responsible for insuring the Immigration Department against loss and damage, or any personal liability claims arising from its management of detention centres, but the government has agreed that Serco will be liable to pay only $75m, on top of any insurance payouts.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...secretly-doubled/story-fn8gf1nz-1226054256352


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 May 2011)

I would ask posters not to blame the immigrants for their behaviour.

They are human beings and ask yourself how you would behave on the brink of a civiilised Western life, but being forced back in to a medieval hell by government edict.

The true guilty are the ALP/Green government who encouraged their migration.

gg


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## sails (14 May 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would ask posters not to blame the immigrants for their behaviour.
> 
> They are human beings and ask yourself how you would behave on the brink of a civiilised Western life, but being forced back in to a medieval hell by government edict.
> 
> ...




I think that is where the blame is being directed, GG, and is one of the reasons that Gillard is losing popularity for labor as she has continued to keep the welcome mat out for so long. The last couple of years of influx is clearly linked to the change in government policy from the Pacific Solution to a welcome to all and sundry. And who wouldn't want to come here and be sustained financially, medically and educationally if desired for the rest of their lives?  And paid for every baby they produce...

I still think the Howard Pacific Solution is more humane than Gillard's Malaysian people trading scheme.  The Pacific Solution is more likely to attract genuine refugees who still have a safe place to go while discouraging those who want to milk our welfare system.


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## Julia (14 May 2011)

It will be interesting to see where the current boatload are sent.  Chris Bowen is telling us that they are being sent a very clear message about the futility of trying to  come to Australia in boats.  Further, he insists they will processed offshore.

So far, though, they are headed for discharge at Christmas Island, despite Mr Bowen suggesting they will be the first boatload to feel the results of the government's new deal.  The reporter on this ABC story noted that the agreement with Malaysia is not yet signed so we await with interest the eventual destination of this boat.

Meantime, Thailand have apparently woken up to the riches that are available to Asian countries if they take a few of our asylum seekers:  the Thai government is saying they would be very keen to engage in a similar deal to that brokered with Malaysia.

What next, I wonder?   Will Australia eventually engage in taxpayer funded deals with many more countries all anxious to offload thousands of their asylum seekers for a few of ours?  We couldn't blame them.  Australia foots the bill for everything.
Why wouldn't they want a part of it!


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## drsmith (14 May 2011)

Julia said:


> So far, though, they are headed for discharge at Christmas Island, despite Mr Bowen suggesting they will be the first boatload to feel the results of the government's new deal.  The reporter on this ABC story noted that the agreement with Malaysia is not yet signed so we await with interest the eventual destination of this boat.
> 
> Meantime, Thailand have apparently woken up to the riches that are available to Asian countries if they take a few of our asylum seekers:  the Thai government is saying they would be very keen to engage in a similar deal to that brokered with Malaysia.



Malaysia or another country ??

http://www.smh.com.au/national/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-20110514-1en3w.html

It's in the video, after Paul and Melony park the car.


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## drsmith (15 May 2011)

Thailand is scrambling for a position in the queue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/14/3217023.htm


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## Julia (31 August 2011)

More bad news for the government:

The High Court has scuttled the Malaysia deal:  From the ABC Website:



> *
> High Court scuttles Malaysia swap deal
> 
> Posted 1 minute ago
> ...


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## -Bevo- (31 August 2011)

Apparently the agreement says Australia must take the 4000 asylum-seekers from Malaysia even if we send none in return, has to be biggest joke of a government ever lol. Better find another item to tax Gillard, help pay for all this.


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## Happy (31 August 2011)

-Bevo- said:


> ... Better find another item to tax Gillard, help pay for all this.




Eventually they will be able to save some hire money if they can release plane that was waiting all that time.

In one (polite) word: SILLY


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## Knobby22 (31 August 2011)

Amazing. If you said you wanted to deliberately make a mess of this issue I doubt you could have done as well as this government.


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## joea (25 November 2011)

Hi.
In the last couple of weeks I noticed on the news tape on TV, that a juvenile boat smuggler was released by Australian authorities. Be interesting to see if the Australian 14 year old problems will now be solved.
joea


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