# Western athletes boycott the Beijing Olympics?



## Superfly (23 March 2008)

When it involves Hicks or that Dr Haneff, Guantanamo Bay / Iraq or America in general, the lefties are all up in arms... but when it comes to real Human rights abuse such as in China, all is silent....


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 March 2008)

Superfly said:


> When it involves Hicks or that Dr Haneff, Guantanamo Bay / Iraq or America in general, the lefties are all up in arms... but when it comes to real Human rights abuse such as in China, all is silent....




Could you be more specific on which abuse?Thanks.


----------



## Superfly (24 March 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Could you be more specific on which abuse?Thanks.




Hundreds killed in Tiananmen Square... that night showed the real communist party behind all the smiles.... the list goes on ....


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 March 2008)

there have already been a few boycotts over the years - eg Moscow, - where Lisa Forrest was a rebel.  I notice she's written a book. (recently?)   



> While in Year 11 at high school Lisa captained the Australian swimming team to the 1980 Moscow Olympics - one of a small band of high profile athletes that led the campaign to defy Malcolm Fraser's Federal Government in its attempt to support the US-led boycott of those Games. Facing death threats, falling public support and withdrawal of vital sponsorship funds Australia nevertheless made it to Moscow. But the campaign to get there took its toll. Lisa failed to win the expected Olympic medal in her pet event, the 200m backstroke, in dramatic fashion. In more ways than one the Moscow Olympics would be a defining moment in her career.




Heard her on the ABC saying "There was a proposal back a while there, that all games should be held in Athens." 
I think she said she'd have been in favour.  

PS So she lost to the Russian / East German whatever swimmers - ? in the 1980 games? big deal!
I wonder how many of those swimmers are alive today, given the growth hormones etc they were doped up on?


----------



## juw177 (24 March 2008)

Superfly said:


> Hundreds killed in Tiananmen Square... that night showed the real communist party behind all the smiles.... the list goes on ....




It is quite sad that the majority of people in Western countries with their biased media are so ignorant about what is going on in China. Ok, so the Tianaman Square incident happened about 20 years ago. What are the other ones on your list? And what media silence are you talking about? Tibet has been blown out of proportion in western news everyday for the past week.

I bet you also think that Chinese secret communist police kills unborn babies if a mother has already got one child. It is no wonder that the average Westerner see China as a backward nation.

Every little thing that can make Asia look bad is blown out of proportion. The toy recall incident comes to mind, and that wasn't even the Chinese's fault, it was Fisher Price trying to cut their costs.

What of USA use of torture and Australia's handling of refugees? How many innocent people were killed as a result of the US invasion of Iraq? Do we boycott the USA too? And what about the many more that die in Africa everyday due to western sponsored civil wars?

Dalai Lama only gets all the western media coverage because he is a hollywood celebrity in Asia spreading western influences. According to wikipedia:


> In October 1998, the Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged that it received US$1.7 million a year in the 1960s from the U.S. Government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and had also trained a resistance movement in Colorado, (USA).




So if you look outside American news outlets on coverage of what is happening right now in Tibet you will find the other side of the story. Can you see why it is in their interest to distort the events happening in Tibet?

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={0F294006-A5BB-4350-9A8A-07905A885CD2})&language=EN
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20080317-cnn-accused-propaganda-tibet-riots


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 March 2008)

Yeah i read a few articles on the 1951 seventeen point agreement signed (some reports of under duress) to allowing the PLA into Tibet.This Sino-Tibetan agreement is what much of the present day contreversy is about i.m.o.With the Dalai Lama in India wanting return of independance to Tibetan people.
There is a bit of history going back to when the Mongols were dominant in Asia before the Chinese dynasties took hold.The land and the relationships between the ruling parties of the time.I`m all for an independant Tibet but them Chinese reckon it`s theirs.

It goes back a fair way .. 



> The Indian archeologist V. N. Misra has shown that early humans inhabited the Tibetan Plateau from at least twenty thousand years ago and that there is reason to believe that early humans passed through Tibet at the time India was first inhabited, half a million years ago


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 March 2008)

1. Is China in the wrong in Tibet? certainly if they are shooting protestors.

2. Should we blackball their goods?  ( yeah right - clear out the shelves of all the stores for starters)

3. Should we ask the sportspeople of the country to be our conscience? and the only ones to ACT!  - of course not.  

4. Combining the above, would we be totally hypocritical to a) buy "Made in China", whilst at the same time b) telling our sportsmen that WE think THEY shouldn't partake in a 4-yearly SPORTING event.


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 March 2008)

> 1. Is China in the wrong in Tibet?




Well on this map (accuracy???) of 1200 years ago it certainly has taken over a large piece of land in the region.



> certainly if they are shooting protestors




Yes most certainly.Protest violence and death happens in many countries and is not condoned. 



> 3. Should we ask the sportspeople of the country to be our conscience?



Absolutely not but if Tiananmen Square happened recently how could anyone support such horror by attending.How much is enough.


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 March 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes most certainly.Protest violence and death happens in many countries and is not condoned.
> 
> Absolutely not but if Tiananmen Square happened recently how could anyone support such horror by attending.How much is enough.



yeah but wys

don't we all happily support the same horror when we buy "Made in China"? 
or trade with them? sell them ore etc? 

ok for businessmen because everyone knows they have no morals? 
not ok for sportsmen?

Also - many don't condone what USA and UK and AUS did in going into Iraq.  So? - would they be entitled to boycott the Sydney Games , if they were this year instead of 2000? 

PS I notice China is sending a "second flame" through Tibet to Mt Everest.
I guess the chances of it getting through Tibet alight is a bit slim - so better to "divide the forces" - "divide the torch" so to speak 


> China vows strict security for torch relay
> Posted 6 hours 26 minutes ago
> China will impose strict security on the Olympic Games torch relay through restive Tibet to Mount Everest, as the Government seeks to prevent any protests upsetting the symbolic show of national unity.
> 
> ...




As for the general Tibetan situation and the murders - disgusting! - no question!  
Here's a youtube video if you haven't already seen it 
PS Dalai Lama continues to say the Tibetans simply want "meaningful autonomy" - not independence.  Some of the students /  monks have been going beyond that , and Dalai Lama has recently threatened to resign (again) 

 Chinese massacres in Tibet. Shooting at Tibetan pilgrims


----------



## 2020hindsight (24 March 2008)

PS Origins of the word boycott?
(not a particularly nice bloke - in Irish eyes anyway) 
goes back to the fall of feudalism in Ireland 
'Boycott" has been translated into many languages 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/boycott



> Word History: Charles C. Boycott seems to have become a household word because of his strong sense of duty to his employer. An Englishman and former British soldier, Boycott was the estate agent of the Earl of Erne in County Mayo, Ireland. The earl was one of the absentee landowners who as a group held most of the land in Ireland. Boycott was chosen in the fall of 1880 to be the test case for a new policy advocated by Charles Parnell, an Irish politician who wanted land reform. Any landlord who would not charge lower rents or any tenant who took over the farm of an evicted tenant would be given the complete cold shoulder by Parnell's supporters.
> 
> Boycott refused to charge lower rents and ejected his tenants. At this point members of Parnell's Irish Land League stepped in, and *Boycott and his family found themselves isolated—without servants, farmhands, service in stores, or mail delivery. Boycott's name was quickly adopted as the term for this treatment, not just in English but in other languages such as French, Dutch, German, and Russian*.



"On December 1, 1880 Captain Boycott left his post and withdrew to England, with his family."

Boycotts ( and Girlcotts ) 



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott
> Although the term itself was not coined until 1880, the practice dates back to at least 1830, when the National Negro Convention encouraged a boycott of slave-produced goods.
> 
> Other instances of boycotts are their use by African Americans during the US civil rights movement;
> ...




Arguably illegal in USA in some circumstances anyway. 


> [edit] Legality
> While boycotts are generally legal in developed countries, some restrictions may apply. For instance, it may be unlawful for a union to order the boycott of companies that supply items to the organization.
> 
> For United States citizens, the antiboycott provisions of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) apply to all "U.S. persons," defined to include individuals and companies located in the United States and their foreign affiliates. These persons are subject to the law when their activities relate to the sale, purchase, or transfer of goods or services (including information) within the United States or between the United States and a foreign country. This covers exports and imports, financing, forwarding and shipping, and certain other transactions that may take place wholly offshore.[3]




"*The first Olympic boycott was in 1956 Summer Olympics with several countries boycotting the games for different reasons*." - hey that was Melbourne !! - never knew that lill fact. 

PS "the Indian boycott of British goods organized by Mohandas Gandhi" - i.e. note that some boycotts through history have had nothing to do with sport


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 March 2008)

Squeezing the peasants is still happening 2020.He was following the directions of the Earl anyway.


> don't we all happily support the same horror when we buy "Made in China"? or trade with them? sell them ore etc?




Well if a 2000 year old sequoia gets the chainsaw are we affected.When 100 elephants are massacred are we affected. With wild tiger numbers reduced to around 4 to 5000 are we affected.We accept some atrocities yet turn a blind eye to others.Every single man, woman and child are responsible.Our fellow (loosely) humans. 

Walking a mile in another life form  (someone elses shoes) Life and death is reality and why the human race was ever allowed to grow to such numbers i will never know in my lifetime.

p.s. I`ll be laughing at something soon as acceptance /acknowledgement is the diversion from depression.

p.s. MBF have an advert that they want people to live longer (join up and give us your money) when on a deeper level they (no one really) gives two hoots about anyone else.Looking deeper.... self is all that matters.


----------



## Superfly (26 March 2008)

> It is quite sad that the majority of people in Western countries with their biased media are so ignorant about what is going on in China.



You think we should listen to your Chinese state run media ? the only media allowed in China ...



> Ok, so the Tianaman Square incident happened about 20 years ago.



.. I can not believe anyone but a party member would say something like that... so maybe you guys at the Chinese embassy do use the internet..


> What are the other ones on your list?



May want to ask Amnesty International for a 50 year list of terror ...

Just to help you, here is just the first few lines of the Anmesty report... remember that unlike other areas in the world there is no major conflict in China at the moment...

PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

Head of state: Hu Jintao
Head of government: Wen Jiabao
Death penalty: retentionist
International Criminal Court: not ratified

An increased number of lawyers and journalists were harassed, detained, and jailed. Thousands of people who pursued their faith outside officially sanctioned churches were subjected to harassment and many to detention and imprisonment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed. Migrants from rural areas were deprived of basic rights. Severe repression of Uighurs in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region continued, and freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and among Tibetans elsewhere.

Anmesty report..



> And what media silence are you talking about?



Nothing about media silence, read it again... it's referring to all the human rights fans defending the likes of Hicks and then say nothing when it comes to China.


> Tibet has been blown out of proportion in western news everyday for the past week.



China is/may be killing people.. China has banned western media from Tibet...


> I bet you also think that Chinese secret communist police kills unborn babies if a mother has already got one child. It is no wonder that the average Westerner see China as a backward nation.



Spoken like a true mainlander Chinese, so quick to leave your country for the western freedom and money, but so quick to stick your chest out about China. If a Chinese managers wife has a second child, then he may lose his position, one must toe the party line. I have never heard anybody say that China is a backwards nation though. 



> Every little thing that can make Asia look bad is blown out of proportion. The toy recall incident comes to mind, and that wasn't even the Chinese's fault, it was Fisher Price trying to cut their costs.



Oh yeh and the left leaning western media doesn't blow up any little bit of bad information out of Iraq that they can... 



> What of USA use of torture and Australia's handling of refugees? How many innocent people were killed as a result of the US invasion of Iraq? Do we boycott the USA too? And what about the many more that die in Africa everyday due to western sponsored civil wars?



When you are fighting an enemy that kills their own women and children, makes videos of cutting westerners heads off with knives.. what we do is nothing. At lot less innocent people would have been killed if their government had not put military sites in suburbs, schools etc. Whats wrong with Australia's Pacific solution handling of these queue jumping economic refugees that just tie up our high court with endless appeals that cost the tax payer millions, unlike China who send them back over the border to prison and a high chance of death in North Korean labour camps. As for Africa, the Chinese are there to, and just ask the miners in the Congo about what conditions the Chinese mines give them to work ( low pay, nearly no food, poor camp living conditions ). 



> Dalai Lama only gets all the western media coverage because he is a hollywood celebrity in Asia spreading western influences. According to wikipedia:
> 
> 
> So if you look outside American news outlets on coverage of what is happening right now in Tibet you will find the other side of the story. Can you see why it is in their interest to distort the events happening in Tibet?



If China was not in Tibet, then there would not be this trouble. 

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={0F294006-A5BB-4350-9A8A-07905A885CD2})&language=EN
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20080317-cnn-accused-propaganda-tibet-riots[/QUOTE]


----------



## chops_a_must (26 March 2008)

I agree that a boycott is kind of pointless.

But I do feel our athletes, and the athletes in general should make a stand. I for one, would not be surprised to see some kind of statement made at the opening or closing ceremony. I think this is a much better way of going about it. I think more affect would be garnered from this.

I mean, what are the Chinese going to do about it? Beat the offending athletes up?

It's got to the point where international condemnation is reaching a critical mass, and that the Tibetan situation can no longer be ignored. It may in fact overshadow the games themselves. And I'll be pretty glad if it ends up being like that.

Anyone planning on going to the protests on Saturday? I will if I wake up.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 March 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I for one, would not be surprised to see some kind of statement made at the opening or closing ceremony. I think this is a much better way of going about it. I think more affect would be garnered from this.




yep , I heard something along those lines a day or three back.

That to boycott only the opening ceremony would be incredibly powerful. (you'd think).   I mean the kids carrying the banner "Australia" - and noone behind em


----------



## Prospector (26 March 2008)

So I take it then that those who think we should be boycotting China and the Olympic Games also have no shares in any Miners then?  Just to be consistent


----------



## Spaghetti (26 March 2008)

I have never ever seen sport as a means for political protest. Others are correct. If we want to boycott then we start with business. Australia will fall in a heap so then who are we really punishing?

Plus we do not have any moral authority as a country do we?


----------



## noirua (26 March 2008)

America has a problem if they were thinking about boycotting the Olympics. It was America who boycotted the 1980 Olympic Games, and why?, well, because Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979. 
Remember that Australia is in Iraq.
The picture of wars and battles is one that is fought all over the World.
In 2012 the Olympics will be in England, which has a record of wars and battles stretching back over 2,000 years. Remember they ruled both China and India.


----------



## chau1029 (26 March 2008)

Be realistic....boycott will not help Tibet in any sense, it's just a nightmare to all sportsmen, they have trained their ass off for ages for the 4 yearly event trying to showcase their strength and fight for a medal....

Sports should never be linked to politics....and politics is dirty, China is doing all the killing in Tibet last weeks, but what about the US and UK army in Iraq and Afghanistan? it's not suprising anymore when horrible news breaking out telling how the US army treat the people in these country, no human rights at all, those people are just like pigs waiting for being killed.

Just focus on the economy and our money in these hard time brought to us by  the US....and we do need countries such as China and India to help us getting it through


----------



## robert toms (26 March 2008)

I read a reasonable article saying that what the Tibetans are protesting about is the encroachment of the Chinese and their way of life on the Tibetan existence.
When Malaysia was formed there were severe anti-Chinese riots.The end result being Singapore breaking away from the federation.
Not reported much in the narrow Australian media is that when there is unrest and protests in Indonesia ,invariably they turn into an anti-Chinese crusade.
Burn their businesses etc!
Dare I say it ...that the Chinese are seen as the jews of Asia.
Perhaps the the Tibetans should do as John Howard says the aboriginals should do...assimilate with newcomers! Accept their fate!


----------



## juw177 (26 March 2008)

The Chinese media will always report from the a pro China point of view and western media will always report from the pro Tibet point of view. *This will not change* therefore we will not have an objective point of view if we just get our news from Sydney Morning Herald or CNN.

If you have an attention span of more than 5 seconds, try SBS or BBC, they are at least a little more balanced.

I am not Chinese, I am just angry at the hypocrisy and one sidedness in US and Australian media when it comes to countries like China and Iran.



Superfly said:


> May want to ask Amnesty International for a 50 year list of terror ...




If you are talking about this link:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/human-rights

You might want to search USA as well, and other countries before singling out China.




> Oh yeh and the left leaning western media doesn't blow up any little bit of bad information out of Iraq that they can...
> 
> When you are fighting an enemy that kills their own women and children, makes videos of cutting westerners heads off with knives.. what we do is nothing. At lot less innocent people would have been killed if their government had not put military sites in suburbs, schools etc. Whats wrong with Australia's Pacific solution handling of these queue jumping economic refugees that just tie up our high court with endless appeals that cost the tax payer millions, unlike China who send them back over the border to prison and a high chance of death in North Korean labour camps. As for Africa, the Chinese are there to, and just ask the miners in the Congo about what conditions the Chinese mines give them to work ( low pay, nearly no food, poor camp living conditions ).




You are just repeating the war propaganda they release in the mainstream media. From that I cannot see how the western media is left leaning at all.

I am not defend chinese media, which you are right about the censorship. But it annoys me that people think western media is so democratic when it is far from it.

Sorry if this is a little bit of American angst:
http://www.fair.org
http://www.projectcensored.org



> If China was not in Tibet, then there would not be this trouble.




Isn't that a little ignorant when the last decades have been marked by the US and other western countries sticking their heads where they dont belong, mostly *in the name of capitalism?* The middle east, east timor, latin america. And how many foreign countries' has China divided up and pillaged in the last decades?


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (26 March 2008)

Well I voted yes, the Chinese government will only understand one thing and that is humiliation.

I saw Kevin Gosper on TV last night defending the Chinese government, saying that there has been "significant human rights reform in China over the last decade", these IOC bosses are the very epitome of blind greed.

I love watching the Olympics - but this one will be a sad show piece against a background of corrupted morals by the hosts and the franchisor.


----------



## jman2007 (26 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> Dalai Lama only gets all the western media coverage because he is a hollywood celebrity in Asia spreading western influences.
> 
> What of USA use of torture and Australia's handling of refugees? How many innocent people were killed as a result of the US invasion of Iraq?




Oookay.....

Can I ask you if you are working with the Chinese diplomatic services? The Dalai Lama comment is a little off the mark, and unfortunately it does sound like an "official" Communist Party line, whether intended or not.

The Dalai Lama supports the Bejing Olypmics in principle, and acknowledges the benefits it will bring to China. And I find it very hard to believe that he would have instigated this unrest in Tibet as the Chinese are claiming, it doesn't seem like his style at all.  The Chinese have lost a huge oppportunity just before the Olympics to be seen coming to the table with an olive branch, and at least try to enter into dialogue.

Agree with you about the Wests record of human rights abuse in Iraq, and their treatment of detainees with out trial etc, the evidence of which is pretty much indesputable.

As for the boycott, well I tend to agree that some kind of prepared statement spoken at the correct time and place would have a huge impact.  The one thing the Chinese wont be keen to be seen doing would be trying to gag journalists and athletes in and around Bejing with the World's eyes on them.

My
jman

I have exercised my diplomatic right and abstained from voting


----------



## juw177 (26 March 2008)

jman2007 said:


> Oookay.....
> 
> Can I ask you if you are working with the Chinese diplomatic services? The Dalai Lama comment is a little off the mark, and unfortunately it does sound like an "official" Communist Party line, whether intended or not.




http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0482730/
http://www.dalailamafilm.com/
I am not Chinese, just highly critical, which is what these forums are for right?

The Chinese government also has tensions with Xinjiang: a region that wants independence and where protesters have been killed. But does it get any western attention?

Nobody can deny the Dalai Lama and the independence movement relies on western popular culture and the cliche image of a peaceful monk.

Dalai Lama accepted the congressional gold medal from president Bush last year. Why would a follower of Ghandi and preacher of peace accept this from the president's bloodstained hand?

And as quoted from wiki:


> In October 1998, The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960s from the U.S. Government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and also trained a resistance movement in Colorado (USA).[51] When asked by CIA officer John Kenneth Knaus in 1995 whether the organization did a good or bad thing in providing its support, the Dalai Lama replied that though it helped the morale of those resisting the Chinese, "thousands of lives were lost in the resistance" and further, that "the U.S. Government had involved itself in his country's affairs not to help Tibet but only as a Cold War tactic to challenge the Chinese."


----------



## disarray (26 March 2008)

juw177 we're not discussing the USA, or australia, or the crusades, we are discussing china. there are plenty of threads there out in internet land about how bad america is and you can find the bias of your choice should you go looking for it. and believe it or not lots of people don't get their news from mainstream sources so please don't assume we can't do our own research.

deflecting criticism of china by going on about how bad everyone else is doesn't change the fact that the communist party of china are corrupt murderers. it's not the chinese people, its not the middle kingdom, its the communist party that is under attack for its policies, right at the time they want to show the world how awesome they are.

for example falun gong practitioners are put to death and have their organs harvested FOR SALE, the proceeds of which line the pockets of local party officials. there is no other word for this practice than evil.

following is a few pictures of tibetan women having their brains blown out in a roadside ditch by the chinese army. i spared the last 2 photos in the set but you can guess what comes next. maybe someone who can read chinese can translate the writing on her chest?

this kind of behaviour is unacceptable in modern, civilised society, and when the dalai lama starts ordering his followers to murder women then maybe the CCP will have a moral case, until then they are behaving like animals.



			
				spaghetti said:
			
		

> Plus we do not have any moral authority as a country do we?




we have plenty. a stable, multiethnic democracy with rule of law and adherance to human rights, we are perfectly justified in criticising other nations who fail to provide these basic rights, or even worse, routinely violate them.


----------



## juw177 (26 March 2008)

Point taken disarray. I was only putting things into perspective for the people that read the news then post on the internet Boycott the Olympics.

I am by no means defending criticisms of China and they can definitely do a lot better to project a good image. But there are always 2 sides to a story. Had the Tibet riots not happened, this topic would not have come up. It is still a mystery who instigated the violence, who has died and why this unfolded at such a sensitive time.

And you say it as if there only needs to be a change in government all problems will be solved. We only have "a stable, multiethnic democracy" because we killed the natives and took in middle class immigrants.


----------



## jman2007 (26 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> And you say it as if there only needs to be a change in government all problems will be solved. We only have "a stable, multiethnic democracy" because we killed the natives and took in middle class immigrants.




Juw177,

As disarray said, there are plenty of other more appropriate arenas to debate these issues in , not only on ASF but the wider internet. Let's please try to keep this thread on topic 

Thanks
jman


----------



## Happy (26 March 2008)

Since Tienanman Square massacre Australia and all other freedom-loving countries could try to do something then, not ask our athletes to do it for them.


----------



## tigerboi (26 March 2008)

Look for a mexico olympics a la black glove style protest by athletes as they accept their medals...

As for a boycott i say no reason being we still trade with them.we sell them our iron ore so it would be hypocrisy of the highest order...

Having said that i am surprised they got the olympics...tb

http://www.pekingduck.org/


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 March 2008)

tigerboi said:


> Having said that i am surprised they got the olympics...tb



Lisa Forrest has written a book - (heard her interviewed on radio ABC) 
 she says the same / similar thing
It's as if the Olympics are often given to a controverisal host country - as if they are wishing that the  Olympics will heal some rift , or rise above the controversy. 

Hence (I believe I'm quoting her correctly) they should use Athens for all Olympics.


----------



## disarray (26 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Hence (I believe I'm quoting her correctly) they should use Athens for all Olympics.




cypriot turks would probably object


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 March 2008)

disarray said:


> cypriot turks would probably object



1. ok - but good incentive for them to smoke a peace pipe I guess.

2. Maybe just imagine that the Greeks patented the flaming idea back there in the BC days (prior usage laws). 

3. I notice the Cypriots used to compete under the Greek flag.  

4. And have yet to win a medal  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_at_the_Olympics


> Cyprus (CYP) has sent athletes to every Olympic Games held since 1980, although the country has never won an Olympic medal. The first modern Olympian from Cyprus was actually Anastasios Andreou, who competed under the Greek flag. At this time, Cyprus was a British protectorate.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 March 2008)

http://history1900s.about.com/library/weekly/aa081000a.htm


> A History of the Olympics
> According to legend, the ancient Olympic Games were founded by Heracles (the Roman Hercules), a son of Zeus. *Yet the first Olympic Games for which we still have written records were held in 776 BCE *(though it is generally believed that the Games had been going on for many years already).




they even had streakers back in those days - a cook no less 


> *At this Olympic Games, a naked runner, Coroebus (a cook from Elis), won the sole event at the Olympics, the stade - a run of approximately 192 meters (210 yards). This made Coroebus the very first Olympic champion in history. *
> 
> The ancient Olympic Games grew and continued to be played every four years for nearly 1200 years. In 393 CE, the Roman emperor Theodosius I, a Christian, abolished the Games because of their pagan influences.
> 
> Approximately 1500 years later, a young Frenchmen named Pierre de Coubertin began their revival. Coubertin is now known as le RÃ©novateur. Coubertin was a French aristocrat born on January 1, 1863. He was only seven years old when France was overrun by the Germans during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Some believe that Coubertin attributed the defeat of France not to its military skills but rather to the French soldiers' lack of vigor.* After examining the education of the German, British, and American children, Coubertin decided that it was exercise, more specifically sports, that made a well-rounded and vigorous person.




his speech :- "At a meeting of the Union des Sports AthlÃ©tiques in Paris on November 25, 1892, Coubertin stated.. "


> Let us export our oarsmen, our runners, our fencers into other lands. That is the true Free Trade of the future; and the day it is introduced into Europe the cause of Peace will have received a new and strong ally. It inspires me to touch upon another step I now propose and in it I shall ask that the help you have given me hitherto you will extend again, so that together we may attempt to realise [sic], upon a basis suitable to the conditions of our modern life, the splendid and beneficent task of reviving the Olympic Games.** etc etc


----------



## fgzq88 (26 March 2008)

what a joke. she's not a Tibetan Woman from her appearance. this first line of writing says she's a voluntary manslaughter, and second line is her name which is han chinese naming. Is it so called that you know something about Tibet?



disarray said:


> juw177 we're not discussing the USA, or australia,
> or the crusades, we are discussing china. there are plenty of threads there out in internet land about how bad america is and you can find the bias of your choice should you go looking for it. and believe it or not lots of people don't get their news from mainstream sources so please don't assume we can't do our own research.
> 
> deflecting criticism of china by going on about how bad everyone else is doesn't change the fact that the communist party of china are corrupt murderers. it's not the chinese people, its not the middle kingdom, its the communist party that is under attack for its policies, right at the time they want to show the world how awesome they are.
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 March 2008)

fqzq - you saying this is wrong as well ?
 Chinese massacres in Tibet. Shooting at Tibetan pilgrims


----------



## juw177 (26 March 2008)

fgzq88 said:


> what a joke. she's not a Tibetan Woman from her appearance. this first line of writing says she's a voluntary manslaughter, and second line is her name which is han chinese naming. Is it so called that you know something about Tibet?




Not to mention the photo quality and their hairstyles look decades old.

edit:
2020hindsight, wow that's pretty heavy stuff. Especially the part where they fabricated the story. However, the Tibetans knew what they were getting into when they try to cross the border illegally.



> Tibetans there lived an extremely poor life. Their children have hardly any opportunity to receive education; moreover, they don't have any religious freedom. In order to ensure that their children have a good future, many parents take great risks to send their children to a "snakehead" who can help them cross the border to the Dalai Lama. Thus that is why majority of the refugee group are young people or even children. This kind of escape normally happens during the winter, when the security guards at the boarder are fewer. Every year there are as many as 2,500 Tibetan refugees that cross the boarder illegally. To date, of six million Tibetans, over 130,000 have successfully escaped to India or Nepal.


----------



## fgzq88 (26 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> fqzq - you saying this is wrong as well ?
> Chinese massacres in Tibet. Shooting at Tibetan pilgrims




Did I say that? What I said is the photos posted by disarray are not consist with what he said!!

BTW, what a great video, did you really see anything in it or just hear someone talking?WOW, those UFO videoes must be true.

just quote a comment from youtube:
If AK47 could do this, shoot at the target from this distance, then Russia would have won the cold war, and Iraq would have beaten US. So funny. This makeup video could only cheat those ....

If you watched the movie <shooter> , you should know what kind of gun are needed for such distance


----------



## juw177 (26 March 2008)

Hmm, that video was pretty big news. I am sad to read that. Why not just let them go to India. I mean, I can understand if border security stop people entering illegally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shootings


----------



## jman2007 (26 March 2008)

fgzq88 said:


> Did I say that? What I said is the photos posted by disarray are not consist with what he said!!
> 
> BTW, what a great video, did you really see anything in it or just hear someone talking?WOW, those UFO videoes must be true.




fgzq88, 

I've never felt the need to say anything like this on this forum before, but you are seriously close to overstepping the line here my friend.

Please, if you can't carry out a discussion in a constructive adult manner, then take your sarcasm and cynicism elsewhere, because it is most definitely not welcome here on ASF.

jman


----------



## fgzq88 (26 March 2008)

jman2007 said:


> fgzq88,
> 
> I've never felt the need to say anything like this on this forum before, but you are seriously close to overstepping the line here my friend.
> 
> ...




well , I apologize to 2020hingsight what I said regarding the video and thank juw177 for the link you provided


----------



## disarray (27 March 2008)

fgzq88 said:


> what a joke. she's not a Tibetan Woman from her appearance. this first line of writing says she's a voluntary manslaughter, and second line is her name which is han chinese naming. Is it so called that you know something about Tibet?




her race is irrelevant. the point is the chinese government condones blowing womens brains out in roadside ditches. this is not civilised behaviour, and it lends credence to accusations that the chinese communist party are a brutal and repressive regime that routinely allows human rights violations to occur.

p.s. we're not talking about tibet


----------



## Wysiwyg (27 March 2008)

Here is some footage of the Llasa riots a few weeks back.Graphic mob violence.With the media government controlled it is hard to say whether this is actually in Llasa but the faces are Asian, the destruction widespread and the physical attacks very real.

This is not the way to solve problems.  http://209.85.135.104/translate_c?h...ndex.shtml&prev=/search?q=Sina.com&hl=en&sa=G

This newspaper blames the Dalai clique ... 



> -- Beijing March 26 (Xinhua Qiuli) March 14, the Tibet Autonomous Region in Lhasa, the capital of vandalism burned violence, in the face of "Tibet independence" elements of the worst acts of splitting the motherland, the Chinese Government has adopted a series of Festival measures are justified, and to effectively check the further expansion of the incident, and safeguarding the reunification of the motherland.
> 
> 3月14日，西藏自治区首府拉萨爆发达赖集团策划的暴力事件，一些暴徒殴打和砍杀无辜群众，焚烧学校和商店，哄抢商店和银行，破坏公共设施，圣城拉萨弥漫在恐慌之中。 March 14, Lhasa, the capital of Tibet Autonomous Region plotted by the Dalai clique outbreak of violent incidents, some mob beatings and killed innocent people, burning schools, and shops, and looting of shops and banks, the destruction of public facilities, in the holy city of Lhasa diffuse fear. 面对这一暴力事件，西藏自治区的武警官兵和警察没有使用任何杀伤性武器，以血肉之躯保护群众生命财产安全，极力维护社会秩序。 The face of this violence, the police officers, the Tibet Autonomous Region and the police did not use any WMD to flesh protect safety of life and property, to maintain the social order.
> A large number of image data show that mob with stones, machetes frenzied attack armed soldiers, many of the policemen and soldiers were played bloody mob. 更为疯狂的是，居然有暴徒从被石块击昏的士兵的臀部剜下碗大的肉。 More crazy is that even with stones from the mob of soldiers Jihun buttocks cutting into the meat of large bowl.
> 面对这样的疯狂，达赖集团和一些别有用心的西方媒体却歪曲事实，居然谴责是中国政府镇压了他们的“和平抗议”。* Faced with this kind of crazy, the Dalai clique and some people with ulterior motives of the Western media have distorted the facts, even condemned the Chinese Government's crackdown on their "peaceful protest." *


----------



## juw177 (27 March 2008)

Wysiwyg: Some summaries of eye witness accounts here that are hopefully less biased:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet

My impression from reading that is there are casualties on both sides. The Tibetians are out of control and setting a lot of things on fire amongst other violence.  It does not say whether the Chinese government used excessive force against the rioters although I don't see how they are going to restore order peacefully.


----------



## Superfly (27 March 2008)

disarray said:


> her race is irrelevant. the point is the chinese government condones blowing womens brains out in roadside ditches. this is not civilised behaviour, and it lends credence to accusations that the chinese communist party are a brutal and repressive regime that routinely allows human rights violations to occur.
> 
> p.s. we're not talking about tibet




Yes... those pictures show the real Chinese communist party...


----------



## Superfly (28 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> 1. Is China in the wrong in Tibet? certainly if they are shooting protestors.
> 
> 2. Should we blackball their goods?  ( yeah right - clear out the shelves of all the stores for starters)
> 
> ...




The Olympics is a business above anything else.... the IOC never really wanted the Sydney games, they wanted China because of the huge marketing, but back then China still looked to dirty human rights wise to hold such an event... Australia is a mature market.. the mobile phones, soft drinks etc are all already here... but China is still somewhat of an emerging market, a marketers dream... and if the American and Australian swim teams did not show.. who would care about the pool events...ratings would be down and so on.... if these games are a flop, and the Chinese always like to be seen with winners, then its another black eye for the communist party... the President of France is talking boycott... but I'm sure our May day marching Rudd would not think of offending his socialist friends in Beijing.

Absolutely they shouldn't attend these games... if the games where in Zimbabwe would you still be saying that the athletes should go...I may be wrong but didn't the Australian cricket team boycott that tour... why turn a blind eye to human rights just because it's China...


----------



## ithatheekret (28 March 2008)

If the team is under no actual threat of harm , then the political substance should not be intertwined with the context of the games . Besides think of all those lovely gold and silver bits of mega bling . That's what it's about , awarding the worlds best for their physical acheivements . 

Sports and sportsmanship are above politics , but the team members are allowed to have their own opinion in regards to participation , that is their right , well for most of them anyway . Those that don't have a right to an opinion are the ones that should be protesting IMHO .


----------



## Superfly (28 March 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> > If the team is under no actual threat of harm , then the political substance should not be intertwined with the context of the games . Besides think of all those lovely gold and silver bits of mega bling . That's what it's about , awarding the worlds best for their physical acheivements .
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What do you think is happening in Tibet right now !!!!!!!!!!!! and the result of such actions... a jail cell or bullet maybe... and Tibet is not the first ...


----------



## ithatheekret (28 March 2008)

Oh look , I said protest . 

I'm sure you mean riots and violent disorder .


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

options include :-

a) everyone boycott the olympics (tough on the olympic athletes surely)

b) athletes boycott the opening ceremony 

c) the politicians boycott the opening ceremony. (as some Europeans are going to do) - *hey if it's a political message we want to send, then shouldn't that come from the politicians!* 

d) let the athletes march in the opening ceremony, but march behind the Olympic flag, (also collect medals that way) so that for instance the Aussie flag wasn't unfurled at the Olympics (as just discussed on ABC) ..

e) etc I am sure there are others 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...over_Tibet_crackdown_/articleshow/2905822.cms



> EU foreign ministers mull Olympic boycott over Tibet crackdown
> 28 Mar, 2008, 0756 hrs IST, AGENCIES
> 
> EU foreign ministers, meeting in Slovenia from Friday, will argue the case for boycotting the Beijing Olympics opening in protest against China's crackdown on Tibet, amid diverging views.
> ...




another option is 
z) not to boycott, (but sure , give a strong message that we don't approve of the Tibetan situation)  - remembering that only 5% of the population of China are members of the communist party.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 March 2008)

option f) athletes and others boycott running with the torch maybe (?) 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/nhuq128.xml



> Konnie Huq may boycott Olympic torch relay
> By Gary Cleland
> Last Updated: 1:12am GMT 29/03/2008
> 
> ...




g) running with the torch but wearing an Free-Tibet T-shirt .  

h) running with the torch but wearing a black armband

i) athletes wear black armbands at opening ceremony  maybe ?  etc etc

PS we'll hear about it soon enough (next weekend GMT in fact)


----------



## 2020hindsight (30 March 2008)

option j)  lines of pro-Tibetan protestors along the route of the torch  (as is happening in Europe apparently)


----------



## noirua (30 March 2008)

All these problems in Tibet and the Olympics. Buster, aged 101, is expecting to take part in the London Marathon.  Who knows, perhaps he'll be carrying the torch.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7275861.stm

This is the zimmers video, with no excuses, Buster gives the one finger salute (right at the end, wait for it) - was it to China?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqfFrCUrEbY&eurl=http


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 March 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/31/2203541.htm?section=justin
torch arrives in Beijing


option k)
run a heap of protest torches all over the country - diversionary tactics - 
I believe I heard the Tibetans are gonna get another torch "up and running" to compete with the official one.


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

option L) read up on some Tibet history instead of jumping on the bandwagon because crowds of monks protesting for "freedom" looks so cool on TV.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> option L) read up on some Tibet history instead of jumping on the bandwagon because crowds of monks protesting for "freedom" looks so cool on TV.




AT POST #25 - juw177

"I am by no means defending criticisms of China and they can definitely do a lot better to project a good image. But there are always 2 sides to a story."

So much for that shallow attempt at being impartial.


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

Aussie2Aussie, this is not an impartial topic to start with (the thread title is a loaded question). I know you voted yes from your post. And yes I am defending the underdog because we have people like you who just echo the media "free tibet" without DYOR.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> Aussie2Aussie, this is not an impartial topic to start with (the thread title is a loaded question). I know you voted yes from your post. And yes I am defending the underdog because we have people like you who just echo the media "free tibet" without DYOR.




Your funny juw, defending the underdog China.

PS Who is the "we" in "we have people like you...", your not talking about those chinese that are in the homeland and are not loyal communist party members are you? (that, by the way, is a loaded question - the thread title is not).


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

Is there a need to reply to ignorant people that conveniently dismiss anything contradicting their views as Chinese propaganda? (that is a loaded question). And have you thought that unlike western countries, any Chinese person is well aware that their government is corrupt and censors the news... anyone looking for outside information will find it is quite easy to get around the firewall. Just ask a Chinese person, or better yet, go there yourself... go ahead, these "communist party members" are not all that frightening!

If you are here, you must have made some money from the china resource boom. I would think of all places ASF will understand that it is not the Chinese cultural revolution anymore. Please don't turn this into a racist argument and back your reasoning behind your negativity to China with facts.

edit: typos

edit: how ironic Aussie2Aussie that you made a thread that you think Aboriginals shouldn't be compensated for our government mistreating them... that was the very human rights issue that the Europeans were talking of boycotting the Sydney olympics for.


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

To put things into perspective.

This is an example of the boycott Sydney campaign (before Redfern and Cronulla riots).
http://sisis.nativeweb.org/2000/main.html

If you read it, you will think it is not the REAL Australia. Unfortunately for China, the western world only knows these sort of news from China, and even if it may be unpopular idea, it is not the REAL China.

Now say the Redfern riots happened leading up to the olympics, and they burn down most of Redfern, a few people die. "Free the Aborigines" they say. What will our government do when the international media calls us racist, police brutality crackdown etc, and want a boycott?

Someone like Aussie2Aussie will say "no way". Too bad others will brand him as a racist John Howard supporter.

This is the situation facing China right now.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> Is there a need to reply to ignorant people that conveniently dismiss anything contradicting their views as Chinese propaganda? (that is a loaded question). And have you thought that unlike western countries, any Chinese person is well aware that their government is corrupt and censors the news... anyone looking for outside information will find it is quite easy to get around the firewall. Just ask a Chinese person, or better yet, go there yourself... go ahead, these "communist party members" are not all that frightening!
> 
> If you are here, you must have made some money from the china resource boom. I would think of all places ASF will understand that it is not the Chinese cultural revolution anymore. Please don't turn this into a racist argument and back your reasoning behind your negativity to China with facts.
> 
> ...




And the "we" are?? Just as I thought, no answer. Hint juw, if you are going to incorporate others into your justifications please name them.

If I am here, I may have made money out of the Australian resources boom - not "from the china resource boom", what an arrogant toad you are.

PS Irony is the fact that you spew your venom, from god knows where (Yarralumla I presume, that is where the embassy is isnt it) while you dish dirt on Australia. Now if you wouldnt mind posting even one piece about europeans boycotting the sydney olympics because of mistreatment of aboriginals ; and I am not talking about a couple of people in a pub in Norway.
Dont even attempt to compare our human rights with that of China.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> To put things into perspective.
> 
> This is an example of the boycott Sydney campaign (before Redfern and Cronulla riots).
> http://sisis.nativeweb.org/2000/main.html
> ...




As I said, your funny.

Some guy called Lorenzo from Chattanooga is not what I would call "Europeans ...... boycotting the Sydney olympics" but keep trying.


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 March 2008)

juw,
I voted no to the sportspeople taking the entire responsibility here, but as regards your implication that China is innocent,,,  why so much secrecy / control / exclusion of the press?   

Why doesn't China do more in Burma? etc

Why doesn't China take it's opportunities to gain real international respect? 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/17/2192041.htm


> Senate insists China should protect human rights in Tibet
> Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:14pm AEDT
> Updated Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:05pm AEDT
> 
> ...


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

Hi 2020hindsight. My view on the media blackout below. And yes, I know this is not the popular opinion but it separates fact from fiction.

It is hard to know if China has been innocent through these protests. Due to the media exclusion the only real footage we have is Chinese TV covering the violence of the Tibetans. Of course the reports are biased, but it is still mob violence and does warrent a crackdown anywhere else in the world.

There are also a few amateur tourist videos showing violent Tibetans.

There is also one (I believe the only) western reporter that was an eye witness to this. His interview is here, and he actually says that the Chinese police were very cautious in the midst of the Tibetan violence:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/

My point is that all that didn't stop western TV spinning all sorts of stories of foul play by the Chinese, complete opposite spectrum to the Chinese reports, eg,
* When Chinese did let reporters in, the only news report that came out of it was a bunch of Tibetans protesting to the press to not believe the Chinese. They do not mention that the reporters stated that the city was destroyed by ethnic targeted violence. They saw that hospitals were destroyed, banks were robbed, girls were burned alive.
* Footage of Nepalese soldiers arresting monks and labeling the soldiers as Chinese.
* Many pictures of army vehicles and uniformed soldiers. Little pictures of rioting Tibetans.
* Every article quotes Dalai Lama saying he reckons 120 Tibetans died (even though this man never set foot in Tibet the last 50 years).
* Almost no mention of the trail of destruction left by the mob.


Keep in mind if China obviously thinks that a media blackout is less damaging to China's reputation than otherwise. This can be due to 2 reasons:

1. Chinese are using excessive force to quell the protest:
Possible, but there were no eye witness accounts as yet.

2. Chinese thinks that western media was only interested in spinning a story on police brutality. (Which they did anyway without conclusive evidence). After all, China never gets any good press abroad anyway so it is understandable.


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

This is the only eye witness account by a western reporter of the Tibet violence. (Unfortunately media outlets tend to ignore this guy and go to Richard Gere or spin their own stories about police brutality.)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/



> BEIJING, China (CNN) -- James Miles, of The Economist, has just returned from Lhasa, Tibet. The following is a transcript of an interview he gave to CNN.
> 
> *Q. How easy was it for you to see what you wanted to see?*
> 
> ...


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> Hi 2020hindsight.
> Keep in mind if China obviously thinks that a media blackout is less damaging to China's reputation than otherwise. This can be due to 2 reasons:
> 
> 1. Chinese are using excessive force to quell the protest:
> ...





I love a challenge, this is information much easier to come by than the phantom boycott of Sydney 2000.

Eyewitness: Tibet out of control
http://www.cafebabel.com/en/article.asp?T=T&Id=14318

Eyewitness: Tibet in riot
http://tibettoons.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/eyewitness-tibet-in-riot/

Tourists provide eyewitness accounts of Tibet unresthttp://www.abc.net.au/ra/programguide/stories/200803/s2194833.htm

Could keep going but but I got bored making my point. Google: eyewitness tibet - thanks for the key words juw, pity you did not check yourself first.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

Last two questions from your CNN piece that amazingly you failed to post - so I will do it for you. 

Q. So you weren't expelled? It just ran out?

A. Well we're in a gray area here. Because in theory China has been opened up to foreign journalists since January 2007, which means no longer, which was the case before, do we have to apply for provincial level government approval every time we leave Beijing for reporting. The official regulations don't mention Tibet. *But orally, officials have made it clear that Tibet is an exception to these new Olympic rules and journalists who have made their own way there, unofficially, both before this unrest and during it have been caught or ... and expelled. Or those who have succeeded in making it out without being detected have been criticized by the authorities for doing so. So one could argue that yes I was expelled,* if one looks at the regulations they've announced which one could interpret as meaning we have the freedom to be where we like. But in their interpretation, Tibet is an exception and in their view they were being rather liberal towards me by letting run to the end of my official permit.


Q. Is Dalai behind this?

A. *Well we didn't see any evidence of any organized activity, at least there was nothing in what I sensed and saw during those couple of days of unrest in Lhasa, there was anything organized behind it. And I've seen organized unrest in China. *The Tiananmen Square protests in 1989 involved numerous organizations spontaneously formed by people in Beijing to oppose, or to call for more reform and demand democracy. We didn't see that in Lhasa. There were no organizations there that ... certainly none that labeled themselves as such. *These accusations against what they call the Dalai Lama clique, are ritual parts of the political rhetoric in Tibet.* There is a constant background rhetoric directed at the Dalai Lama and his supporters in India. So it is not at all surprising that they would repeat that particular accusation in this case. But they haven't come across, haven't produced any evidence of this whatsoever. *And I think it's more likely that what we saw was yes inspired by a general desire of Tibetans both inside Tibet and among the Dalai Lama's followers, to take advantage of this Olympic year. But also inspired simply by all these festering grievances on the ground in Lhasa.*


----------



## 2020hindsight (31 March 2008)

juw177 said:


> Keep in mind if China obviously thinks that a media blackout is less damaging to China's reputation than otherwise. This can be due to 2 reasons:
> 
> 1. Chinese are using excessive force to quell the protest:
> Possible, but there were no eye witness accounts as yet.
> ...




First casualty truth you reckon?  I guess the Dalai Lama was complaining about the crowds as well - threatening to resign etc - watch this space as they say.  

and China has come a long way since Tien An Min Square, true. 

Do the Chinese people fully support the current Chinese Govt you reckon?


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

Aussie2Aussie, I had to crop the article due to running out of characters. thanks for posting the rest. But you havent proven anything either with your angry posts. I dont believe Dalai is behind this either, they just needed someone to blame and they are not going to blame the Tibetans to isolate them more than they already are.

2020hindsight: Can't say, I have only been on holiday there. But what I do know is that the Chinese are well aware that their government is corrupt and censors etc, and are very critical of their government. Despite what you might hear, they actually take politics very seriously and discuss it openly.

However, you wont find any of them supporting Tibet independence because this is more they believe that other countries have no right to intervene with their politics. eg, I have met people from Iraq and Iran and it is no surprise how they feel about the US freeing them from their evil dictator. Oh and Tibet is also a part of China.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (31 March 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> First casualty truth you reckon?  I guess the Dalai Lama was complaining about the crowds as well - threatening to resign etc - watch this space as they say.
> 
> and China has come a long way since Tien An Min Square, true.
> 
> Do the Chinese people fully support the current Chinese Govt you reckon?




The Chinese love the status quo, provided there is food on the table (they have been educated that way) - that is where the government has been really smart by providing a selective free market economy.


----------



## juw177 (31 March 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> that is where the government has been really smart by providing a selective free market economy.




Wow you are getting warmer there. That is the reason for violence all over asia, not just Tibet. *Wealth inequality and inflation.* See? You dont burn and loot your own capital city if what you want is freedom. But you might if you are poor and all you see are rich people and tourists roll into town.


----------



## Superfly (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Wow you are getting warmer there. That is the reason for violence all over asia, not just Tibet. *Wealth inequality and inflation.* See? You dont burn and loot your own capital city if what you want is freedom. But you might if you are poor and all you see are rich people and tourists roll into town.




Juw... ur an Chinese embassy staffer right ?


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Wow you are getting warmer there. That is the reason for violence all over asia, not just Tibet. *Wealth inequality and inflation.* See? You dont burn and loot your own capital city if what you want is freedom. But you might if you are poor and all you see are rich people and tourists roll into town.



GOtta be some truth in that.   
Also there is "growth to be had here".  Even the Dalai Lama says he wants to stay with China to be dragged along with the development that's hapening.  And all he wants is "meaningful autonomy".   So "Free Tibet" (young activist term)  needn't necessarily mean "Independence" in his eyes anyway (except that the students / youth have taken it that way).



> http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/tibet.independence/
> *Young Tibetans reject Dalai Lama's lead*
> March 18, 2008
> 
> ...




Personally I'm backing the Dalai Lama rather than the students. / activists. 

Mind you, China sure can be a domineering govt (and perhaps necessarily so to some extent).  I reckon to be able to impose the one-child policy for a start - and for people to live "half-happily" under that policy - just reflects a level of authoritarianism we can hardly comprehend. 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4389&highlight=spare

However the Communist stuff went right off the rails in the 60s and 70s.  Cultural Revolution was absolute stupidity.  Knew a young Chinese bloke, was studying to be a doctor.  The Red Guards kicked him out of uni to "go work the rice paddies" 

Then there were Mao's dabblings in early industrialisation - turning every village into a metal foundry - melting down the cutlery etc to make anything and everything.  Only trouble was they were totally halfbaked attempts.   Not so these days of course.


----------



## noirua (1 April 2008)

There are a lot of people boycotting the Olympics.  So I'm pulling out of the decathlon and high jump.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Wow you are getting warmer there. That is the reason for violence all over asia, not just Tibet. *Wealth inequality and inflation.* See? You dont burn and loot your own capital city if what you want is freedom. But you might if you are poor and all you see are rich people and tourists roll into town.




Lets not forget another nation taking over your economy, housing and jobs.


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Juw... ur an Chinese embassy staffer right ?




Why did you make a poll if you were going to dismiss anything other than a yes vote as Chinese propaganda? So ignorant.



			
				Aussie2Aussie said:
			
		

> Lets not forget another nation taking over your economy, housing and jobs.




As I thought, you still havent read up on any facts.


2020hindsight: I read your thread regarding the one child policy. I thought that the policy just says the second child gets no benefits from the government but you are still allowed to have another if you are financially capable. I don't know about the social implications though, (maybe it is frowned upon by other Chinese who cant afford another child.)

Also, farmers are exempt from the policy. Tibet and many other minorities are also exempt. And guess what, just like the west, people in cities want money nowadays, not family.

There are 2 ways to combat over population. One is to discourage births, the other is to starve the excess population when you can't feed them. If only more countries will do more to tackle this problem, but there is only talk of not having enough consumers to support the baby boomers.

Agree that many suffered under Mao in the cultural revolution. See how the media never got rid of that stigma.


----------



## disarray (1 April 2008)

> Agree that many suffered under Mao in the cultural revolution. See how the media never got rid of that stigma.




because communist china was built on repression at great cost in chinese lives and human rights. the same regime is still in power so no, the communist party will never erase the stigma of the great leap forward.

i would like to know if you do represent the chinese government in any capacity juw. it is common knowledge among the internet community that the chinese government has hoardes of people cruising internet forums and chat sites defending party policy. my friend who posts on another site is involved in an almost identical discussion with similar spelling mistakes (subtle but there) and similar tactics - blaming western media, telling us we are not researching etc.

china is in a difficult position, i see that. trying to keep a society of 1 billion people together is a massive task, and i agree sometimes people need the carrot and sometimes the stick.

part of the problem is cultural difference, particularly the asian psycology behind it all. society over the individual is paramount to many asian societies (particularly chinese with their confucian heritage) and so violations to the individual can be justified in keeping the wider society harmonious. western society is the opposite, we value the rights of the individual over the rights of the state and so see human rights as more important than the state (somewhat to its detriment imo)

so routine human rights violations by china which can be somewhat justified to chinese thinking are abhorrent to the west so people get all agitated about it. cue cultural clash.

what is happening in tibet can't be justified by the current western mindset. the chinese government moved in 50 odd years ago, installed a nuclear arsenal in the mountains, repressed the locals and started shipping ethnic Han in to populate and develop the area, gathering the wealth to themselves. this is wrong and we think the tibetans are rightfully pissed off. you keep pointing out tibetan violence and rioters but neglect the history that brought them to this state. that is the issue that needs to be addressed, similar to the whole aboriginal thing we just went through.

theres other culture clashes as well like western confrontation vs asian inscrutability, where we jump up and down and challenge china on various things where the chinese method of dispute resolution is more subtle. thats another area fraught with problems but its part of the world we live in and its cool.


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> regarding the one child policy. I thought that the policy just says the second child gets no benefits from the government but you are still allowed to have another if you are financially capable.




No benefits or rather penalties.  Then again, it's apparently been relaxed a bit lately due to "social stress".  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy


> The one-child policy promotes couples having one child in rural and urban areas. The limit has been strongly enforced in urban areas, but the actual implementation varies from location to location.[5] In most rural areas, families are allowed to have two children if the first child is female or disabled.[6] Second children are subject to birth spacing (usually 3 or 4 years). *Additional children will result in large fines*: families violating the policy are required to pay monetary penalties
> ....
> population policies and campaigns have been ongoing in China since the 1950s. During the 1970s, a campaign of 'One is good, two is okay and three is too many' was heavily promoted.
> 
> ...






> http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/onechild.htm
> China has proclaimed that it will continue its one child policy, which limits couples to having one child, through the 2006-2010 five year planning period...
> (but)
> Now that millions of sibling-less people in China are now young adults in or nearing their child-bearing years, a special provision allows millions of couples to have two children legally. I*f a couple is composed of two people without siblings, then they may have two children of their own*, thus preventing too dramatic of a population decrease.




But as for the bad old days of the Red Guards etc (gang of four etc) - Blind Freddie can see they've advanced miles since then.  And sometimes you wonder if they are more capitalist that us. .


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

disarray said:


> it is common knowledge among the internet community that the chinese government has hoardes of people cruising internet forums and chat sites defending party policy.




Common knowledge? Can you back this up and while you are at it, go and find just one repressed Chinese person? If you insult and generalise people of any country in this ignorant way, you will get the same response. Think about it, it makes no sense for the Chinese government to hire people to post on forums that no Chinese reads (it's censored right?). And if you read my posts, it is not hard to work out that I am in fact not typing in Chin-glish.

In case you missed it I will repost what I posted earlier:



> What I do know is that the Chinese are well aware that their government is corrupt and censors etc, and are very critical of their government. Despite what you might hear, they actually take politics very seriously and discuss it openly.
> 
> However, you wont find any of them supporting Tibet independence because this is more they believe that other countries have no right to intervene with their politics. eg, I have met people from Iraq and Iran and it is no surprise how they feel about the US "freeing" them from their "evil dictator". Oh and Tibet is also a part of China.


----------



## disarray (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Common knowledge? Can you back this up




go browse some internet forums with large tibetan threads going on



> go and find just one repressed Chinese person?




sure. lots of them are here, like the falun gong protestors, or my taxi driver from a few weeks ago. i said "china is pretty cool now" and he said "you like it so much, you go live there, i'm sick of people saying china is good now"



> If you insult and generalise people of any country in this ignorant way, you will get the same response.




???



> Think about it, it makes no sense for the Chinese government to hire people to post on forums that no Chinese reads (it's censored right?).




sure it does. it's called propaganda and communist regimes excel at it.



> And if you read my posts, it is not hard to work out that I am in fact not typing in Chin-glish.




never said you were typing chingilish. i indicated that i picked up a few minor typos which, with my ex-teachers eye, lead me to believe you are not a native english speaker. if i am wrong, i apologise.

soooo back to the question ... do you represent the chinese government in any capacity? i'd like to do an lookup on your ip address 



> In case you missed it I will repost what I posted earlier: Oh and Tibet is also a part of China.




the tibetans disagree. that's why we are having this discussion.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (1 April 2008)

mmm, nothing I guess the embassy forgot to pay its broadband bill.

Very good points disarray, juw doesnt go so good when solid arguments are put in front of him/her.


----------



## Superfly (1 April 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> mmm, nothing I guess the embassy forgot to pay its broadband bill.
> 
> Very good points disarray, juw doesnt go so good when solid arguments are put in front of him/her.




Maybe comrade Juw has been shot for non-performance, ( in a ditch ) ...


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

disarray, you give communist propaganda way too much credit. From a logical point of view, if the Chinese wanted to take over internet discussions, it would be an impossible task. Take the firewall example, Chinese that want to get around it can easily do it. And even their own people criticise their government freely on Chinese discussion forums.

So what Tibet discussion forums are you referring to? How do you know they are Chinese propaganda spreaders? Does that let me accuse you for working for CIA? Have you thought may be there are a few people out there that have a different view and want to (gasp!) *discuss* it?

If Chinese propaganda was so powerful they would use it for better gains, eg, spam this forum with downrampers so the Chinese can take over our iron ore companies. Anyway, there no need to debunk that argument.


Falun gong is an outlawed cult in China, and cult is by western standards. You cannot compare that. Every culture has extremists. Now I dont know about your taxi driver, but keep an eye out for more repressed Chinese.

As I said equality is a big issue in China and is the source of many problems. Dont confuse that with repression.

*ps,* if you want to grill me on grammar, read the posts by the Superfly, the thread starter.


Superfly said:


> Juw... ur an Chinese embassy staffer right ?




2020hindsight: Thanks for that. I wonder why communists dont modify wikipedia like our government does.


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Maybe comrade Juw has been shot for non-performance, ( in a ditch ) ...




A lot of racial hate in this thread. Ops?



> 1. Aussie Stock Forums was established and is built around the concepts of mutual respect and the free exchange of information and knowledge for the benefit of all.
> 
> 2. All members will treat other members with the utmost respect at all times. This means insults, name calling, personal attacks and the abuse of other members in any way are strictly forbidden. Please, treat other members as you yourself would wish to be treated. *Offenders will be warned once and then have their account suspended from Aussie Stock Forums for a period of time to be determined by the administrator.*
> 
> 3. Obscene language and the use of language that is sexist, racist, harassing or threatening is strictly forbidden and will not be tolerated.


----------



## doctorj (1 April 2008)

For the record, I highly doubt you're some agent of the Chinese Government but I do want to drill down on some of your points.


juw177 said:


> If Chinese propaganda was so powerful they would use it for better gains, eg, spam this forum with downrampers so the Chinese can take over our iron ore companies.



I doubt that money or natural resources would be the key driver of any government-based propaganda.  I'd say its more likely that debunking the alleged ills of the Chinese government would be atleast as important.  Dictatorship isn't about money, it's about power and control.   Moderating international opinion would be a key element of maintaining domestic control of China. 



juw177 said:


> Please note it is racist when you generalise a population of 1.5 billion.



No it's not.  Please see the definition of racist.



juw177 said:


> As I said equality is a big issue in China and is the source of many problems. Dont confuse that with repression.



Both may be an issue, but there appears to be strong evidence of repression when it comes to religious freedom, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of information and various other freedoms that the Western World would consider reasonable.

But to bring this back on topic, I think it should come down to the individual athlete.  If they feel their attendence at the Olympics adds credibility to what they believe is a repressive government, I think they should vote with their feet.  Sport shouldn't be political and governments shouldn't make decisions for their athletes, but athletes are people too and they need to be able to sleep at night.


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 April 2008)

Fact remains (back to thread, and getting off the personal namecalling - whether or not it lowers the tone of the ASF - which I would have thought was obvious,  but moving on) 

Fact remains that the Dalai Lama doesn't want to boycott the games.
Our sportsmen and women don't either 

or if they do, it'll only be a few - and it will be THEIR CALL.

I doubt they will be guided by you superfly.  
Perhaps get yourself on the team - and then you will have the privelege of personally boycotting it, even if you're the only one.


----------



## Joe Blow (1 April 2008)

I'm sorry, I must have missed the name calling. 

If you mean this:



Superfly said:


> Maybe comrade Juw has been shot for non-performance, ( in a ditch ) ...




Well, it looks to me like an ill conceived attempt at humour.


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> For the record, I highly doubt you're some agent of the Chinese Government but I do want to drill down on some of your points.




Certainly.

In regards to international opinion, I have already made my point about our media and examples of outright distortion in reporting. The Chinese government never had a single chance since Tiennaman square to sway the common western opinion. It is a lost cause. Why would they resort to censorship?

Agree there is repression in freedom of information and press. Do not agree on repression of religious freedom (EDIT: for the post Mao period!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

There are I think 56 recognised minorities (tibet included) in China and there is a national cultural day every year to celebrate. Laws are relaxed for certain minorities, eg, exemption from one child policy, exemption from tax, and  legalised polygomy if it is in their culture to do so. Imagine western governments doing that for their minorities.

Also note Falun Gong is a cult (lots to read about here) and the crackdown is justified, but I do not support the way it is handled.


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

In regards to post about Chinese multiculture, it can be easily found in travel guides.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/festival/

But back to my point that the problem is inequality caused by modernisation, I stumbled upon this. Every modernised country had to go through the same thing and for China it is especially difficult due to the size and variety of cultures. Because of that I do not believe it is a valid reason to boycott the games.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3962151.stm


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 April 2008)

disarray said:


> her race is irrelevant. the point is the chinese government condones blowing womens brains out in roadside ditches. this is not civilised behaviour, and it lends credence to accusations that the chinese communist party are a brutal and repressive regime that routinely allows human rights violations to occur.
> 
> p.s. we're not talking about tibet




disarray - The lady who was shot against the wall was allegedy guilty of manslaughter (so says the sign according to our chinese interpreter poster).  Personally I find capital punishment disgusting, but you don't as I recall.

not really a ditch although it's not much better I concede.

But my point is that you waver a bit on this one disarray - first impression anyway  - here's what you said about the Death Penalty elsewhere ( Death Panalty thread #426 i think) 



disarray said:


> yes to the death penalty (with incontravertible proof + DNA). yes to corporal punishment - eg. rape = 5 years + 25 lashes, 5 per year on the date the original offence took place. people without emotional control need to be taught that there is a higher authority than themselves.
> 
> totally disagree. it is perfectly possible to execute a criminal while maintaining a higher standard of logic, emotional control and morality.
> 
> ...


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

I got sent this link. There are some well written opinions here from both sides. It  gave me a better picture of the relationship between China and the west.

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/calling-china/index.html?ref=opinion


----------



## disarray (1 April 2008)

bit of a stretch 2020. given our court system, its transparency, and constant review by the media and government i would be more confident of its implimentation here. however in china there is controversy over its use, especially against dissidents and the whole harvesting organs from executed prisoners thing. i'm not disputing chinas right to practice capital punishment, but its nature and implementation has questions hanging over it, and it is relevant to this issue. 

juw i think you are being overly defensive. i know china is undergoing a huge social upheaval, at the same time asserting itself as a global power on the world stage. thats great, i respect chinese history and think they are 
playing on the global stage well, but with this comes greater scrutiny. when china rattles its sabre over taiwan and south china sea, or wants to showcase itself to the world by hosting the olympics, then people will rightfully want to know what makes china tick.

you seem to believe that critcism of china is overly negative in western media, and think pro-tibet sentiment exists because the dalai lama is a good actor and gweilo just swallow whatever the tv feeds them. this is not the case, the west is sympathetic to tibet because the dalai lama is a man of peace in word and action, while the chinese government has a reputation for oppression. it seems entirely probable to me, without media input, that the tibetan people are oppressed because of recent history and events in the region, and because of the character of the chinese communist party.

i am trying to get where you are coming from. you appear to be a strongly pro-chinese and anti-media, and thats fine, thats your view. i'm not accusing you of being part of some propaganda conspiracy, and i apologise if i offended you by commenting on your spelling. i'm just putting these things together so i can get a better idea of who you are, then it helps understand where you come from, because like i said, the west generally sympathises with tibet so your view is interesting.


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

It is quite funny when I do a search of posts from the people putting me down:

*disarray* agrees with capital punishment

*Aussie2Aussie* thinks indigenous people have too much benefits in Australia: "My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me."

*Superfly* (world war 3 thread) believes Iran is developing nuclear bombs even though US intelligence say otherwise (hint: Bush ignores US intelligence). Thinks Iran should be liberated amongst other pro US right wing comments.
"The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.."


disarray, thanks for trying to see it from another point of view. Though the reason for western sympathy for Tibet is a bit more complicated than that. eg, You say west like Tibet because Dalai Lama is peaceful, then why do they like violent rioters? If history taught us anything does the west, on their "higher moral ground" ever intervene with other countries out of the goodness of their heart?

Of course for the other side, Chinese nationalism is not without a few blindspots either.

Also I couldnt find any proof of the organ harvesting. Just allegations according to wiki.


----------



## doctorj (1 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> *disarray* agrees with capital punishment
> 
> *Aussie2Aussie* thinks indigenous people have too much benefits in Australia: "My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me."
> 
> ...



What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?


----------



## juw177 (1 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?




*sigh* I will spell it out for you then.
1. Captial punishment: we are boycotting the games to protest against human rights in China, one of the violations being captial punishment.

2. Indigenous people: the Tibet protests are about "cultural genocide", discrimination against minorities and inhabiting their land.

3. Superfly believes the whole US patriotism (super army, stop terrorists and nuclear programs in middle east, anti china, etc) Started this thread. Accuses me of being communist.... brilliant.



If they are so quick to dis my (relatively) pro-china views they should be consistent.


----------



## 2020hindsight (1 April 2008)

disarray said:


> bit of a stretch 2020. given our court system, its transparency, and constant review by the media and government i would be more confident of its implimentation here. however in china there is controversy over its use, especially against dissidents and the whole harvesting organs from executed prisoners thing. i'm not disputing chinas right to practice capital punishment, but its nature and implementation has questions hanging over it, and it is relevant to this issue.



agree that our system is 3000% better than theirs.
not perfect obviously - and that's why the "radical left-wingers" in our society - like Amnesty International etc - go into bat when there's a miscarriage of justice.  (and/or watch completely new legal ground being covered, like Hicks or Haneef etc, - Superfly's first post -  and arguably new legal ground screwed up in the process)  

The Chinese trick of sending a bill for the bullet to the parents of the person done away with is pretty sickening as well. (imo of course).   

Back to thread, fwiw, I'd be bludy amazed if there aren't heaps of demonstations against the Chinese in the next few months ( till August) - it's a once in a lifetime chance for the Tibetan demonstrators (gee nearly called em left wingers) to get real publicity.  Just that I don;t think our swimmers and other sportspeople deserve to take the full brunt of it.  - 

And superfly, I'd be amazed if your house (like mine or anyone else's) didn't have twenty items made in China for example. 

:topic - here's the program btw.
http://en.beijing2008.cn/cptvenues/schedule/


----------



## Happy (2 April 2008)

> From ABC, 2 Apr. 08
> 
> 
> OFFICIALS PONDERING D'ARCY'S FUTURE
> ...




Barrister and parents will definitely chip in with ides what to say and our nation being bent on giving n-th chance and rehabilitating everybody will find a way to have him on.

The simplest, would be under presumption of innocent until prove guilty, just set court proceedings in September 2008, both problems solved.


To make it also partially on subject, If they let him go, Chinese swimmers might pull out of Olympics in protest that D’Arcy’s going.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (2 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?




Its called grasping at straws!

juw, where is the link the European boycott of Sydney 2000 because of aborigines - you don’t have one because no such thing happened.

Whos is the "we" you refer to earlier? - No answer.

You challenged us to come up with any eyewitness - I came up with three, all of which you ignore.

juw, you are a compulsive story teller, who says things then cant back anything up, then you hide behind the "you are all racists", the catch cry of the desperate and the unintelligent.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (2 April 2008)

PS juw keep arguing, your flawed arguments are turning the poll numbers around day by day.


----------



## juw177 (2 April 2008)

Aussie why do you have to sound so bitter all the time? The eye witness links you found on google dont have anything that suggests foul play by China. And I never said there was a boycott of the Sydney games. Do you comprehend that Aboriginal rights was a big agenda worldwide as well as domestic? There were protests about how Aborigine culture was exploited to sell the games when in fact the culture was repressed a long time ago. Unless you have good information to post, just chill out ok?


----------



## ithatheekret (2 April 2008)

The games should never be politically associated , they are there to applaud the worlds best .

Leave the protests to politicians and participants of the areas affected .

That is a real symbolic protest . 

Burning cars and destruction , is violence and a legal government will begat violence back is has the law behind it .

If you want to protest find the free tibet fund and waste your money , because I would dare say , it ain't happening . That goes for most of the land India lost too . But I'd say trade between India and China will expand and grow over the coming years .

Next games in India .........


----------



## Whiskers (2 April 2008)

I think China has started to become more open and free in recent years. Actually I think I would trust China further than I would Russia or Iran and a few others. 

China is making a concerted effort to be involved in world affairs and I reckon have helped to keep the US in check in the UN Security Council, from going to worse excess as the self proclaimed international policeman. 

Let the games go on without incident. An important point in conflict resolution is engage and work with people. Where more reforms need to be made tie an odd little string (condition) to trade or big events like the games. Pay a reward for each little step to improvement. 

I'm sure the games along with other sporting events like the V8'S and F1 tour will promote better business, cultural and political circumstances in China.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (2 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Aussie why do you have to sound so bitter all the time? The eye witness links you found on google dont have anything that suggests foul play by China. And I never said there was a boycott of the Sydney games. Do you comprehend that Aboriginal rights was a big agenda worldwide as well as domestic? There were protests about how Aborigine culture was exploited to sell the games when in fact the culture was repressed a long time ago. Unless you have good information to post, just chill out ok?




1. At post #57 you said ‘how ironic Aussie2Aussie that you made a thread that you think Aboriginals shouldn't be compensated for our government mistreating them... *that was the very human rights issue that the Europeans were talking of boycotting the Sydney Olympics for*.’ you then in support of your argument posted some blog from a guy in Chattanooga - do me a favour and don’t treat the people here as idiots that cant read.

2. I am not going to discuss the issue of aboriginals; you introduced it and was irrelevant then as its now.

3. Your sad attempt to tie in Chinas economic expansion to me profiting from such an event was pathetic and insulting, just as is the link of this discussion to aboriginals and Australias human rights record; moreover, the trawling of this site to find anything on others in order to detract.

4. My information has been more accurate than anything your ill-informed and biased contribution has made, with particular note of the great European boycott discussion.


----------



## juw177 (2 April 2008)

Hey now, no need to be all edgy here. Alright then I concede. A gold medal for you Aussie2Aussie for winning the special Olympics.

no wait... sorry, what you said is not relevant to this topic and I stand by my points unless proven wrong, which you have not done. (Calling me communist does not count as proof.)


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Hey now, no need to be all edgy here. Alright then I concede. A gold medal for you Aussie2Aussie for winning the special Olympics.
> 
> no wait... sorry, what you said is not relevant to this topic and I stand by my points unless proven wrong, which you have not done. (Calling me communist does not count as proof.)




No but by your posts you at least support the communist position on currents events... right..

Just now have two mainland Chinese on my crew, have worked with one of these guys on and off for 5 years and he spent 3 months a year in Tibet from 96-03 doing seicmic work and saw a lot, have asked both of them on their take of Tibet etc... and dam I forgot to get them to translate the pictures of the girls about to be shot by brave chinese soldiers, but will shortly. Anyway to them the Chinese have been taught all their lives that Tibet has always been part of China, they both go off about how bad the D Larma is, say that China needs Tibet for the water from the mountains and will never let it go, that Tibetens get special treatment, like if they kill someone they will only get 5 years jail, where as in the rest of China you will be shot, and now the Tibetens think they are really special and can do what they want. Also they say that there is only about 60 million members of the communist party in China and it's very hard to join, you have to be invited and the benefits are huge once in. 
In fact most of their attiude is very much the same attiude as Juw has been pushing. Interesting though that both these guys are doing everything possible to get out of China and live in the west, pref Australia. Their reason is that China is sh*t because of the government, but I said to them that you both just spent 30 minutes defending that governments actions in Tibet, no no no thats different they say... got that blank chinese look when I said "not for the people in Tibet it isn't...


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

Ok... got the translation of the pictures..

On the truck is " group or collection of murder's"

On the woman its "murder " top line and her "name" underneath.


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> > It is quite funny when I do a search of posts from the people putting me down:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> *Aussie2Aussie* thinks indigenous people have too much benefits in Australia: "My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me."



Juw, you want to coment on posts, then do it on the same thread... is this the only way that you can sustain your support of the communist Chinese government..



> *Superfly* (world war 3 thread) believes Iran is developing nuclear bombs even though US intelligence say otherwise (hint: Bush ignores US intelligence). Thinks Iran should be liberated amongst other pro US right wing comments.
> "The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.."



Again, do not take things out of context, like you being shot in a ditch for non performance, that has to be read in the context of the previous post in that thread, not isolated like you are doing here... that's what the media that you complain about so much does all the time, like in Iraq etc, only show what they what you to see... you are trying to demonise posters here by being underhanded... 




> Of course for the other side, Chinese nationalism is not without a few blindspots either.



Chinese nationlism is not Chinese communism... the communists have only been able to claim mainland China for 50 years... a few blindspots... is that what you call Tiananmen square etc... a blind spot... 


> Also I couldnt find any proof of the organ harvesting. Just allegations according to wiki.



Really... what do you think that the communist government is going to allow reporting of this....[/QUOTE]


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> > Fact remains (back to thread, and getting off the personal namecalling - whether or not it lowers the tone of the ASF - which I would have thought was obvious,  but moving on)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> or if they do, it'll only be a few - and it will be THEIR CALL.




some are in their teens, hard to make informed deicisons about such large issues, but some that may not go will be able to look back proudly at the stand they made.


> I doubt they will be guided by you superfly.
> Perhaps get yourself on the team - and then you will have the privelege of personally boycotting it, even if you're the only one.



[/QUOTE]

There will be another Olympics.. in London 4 years... maybe the IOC can be given a lesson by the althletes that giving the world stage to one party muderous state is wrong and they will not be a part of it. 13000 poor people a month are being made homeless on the cold streets of Beijing to make way for Olympic buildings... The athletes have many world meets etc that they can compete and get their sponsor money etc the Olympics is not the only meet... hope the athletes that go can lose their Chinese minders and go for a long walk away from the made up Olympic world and see the real Beijing that has had to make way for the look good event of the century for the communist party.


----------



## juw177 (3 April 2008)

Superfly, you don't give up your prejudices easily I can see. Not that your Chinese colleagues are that objective but at least they are more cluey about this than you are.

And this along with your other fallacious world views, you really are full of it. You obviously turn a blind eye on human rights when a western country does it to another country. You work for the CIA?

Hiroshima and the generations after it


> Have you any idea what a land invasion of mainland Japan would have cost in American / Australian / English lives... most estimates 200000 to 1+million... the bomb saved countless brave men & women




Middle east is nothing


> When you are fighting an enemy that kills their own women and children, makes videos of cutting westerners heads off with knives.. what we do is nothing.




Hey, Iran does not have any weapon programs, it's proven fact.


> So you think that the mad mullahs in Iran should be allowed to become nuclear... words will not stop them.... ..Iran works away to achieve it's goal... while some look & hope for a more humane & rational way of thinking to deal with the problem... but how do you deal with an unrational government...






> The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.. destorying most needed infustructure, resulting in millions of straving Chinese.. and even with conventional weapons it may just take a while longer.




If this is deemed not relevant, than I am sorry. But I am only trying to understand his views and why he started this thread and pushed so hard to put down China.


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Superfly, you don't give up your prejudices easily I can see. Not that your Chinese colleagues are that objective but at least they are more cluey about this than you are.
> 
> And this along with your other fallacious world views, you really are full of it. You obviously turn a blind eye on human rights when a western country does it to another country. You work for the CIA?
> 
> ...




Comrade Juw..

This is the Olympic thread... discuss the above on the WW111 thread, where all above were posted... and when there, keep things in context... this is not a communist party meeting comrade Juw....


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

Have great respect for President Bush, but really hope that he decides to do a no show at the Olympic opening... and there are calls from the at least one DEM for the President not to go.... set the standard and the althletes may think twice...


----------



## Joe Blow (3 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Comrade Juw..
> 
> This is the Olympic thread... discuss the above on the WW111 thread, where all above were posted... and when there, keep things in context... this is not a communist party meeting comrade Juw....




Hey Superfly, how about you drop the comrade thing now and stick to the issues? It's getting a bit old mate.

Play the ball, not the man.


----------



## Superfly (3 April 2008)

Joe Blow said:


> Hey Superfly, how about you drop the comrade thing now and stick to the issues? It's getting a bit old mate.
> 
> Play the ball, not the man.




Shall do JB ...


----------



## metric (15 April 2008)

Did China Stage Tibetan "Attack" On Wheelchair-Bound Woman?
Image shows culprit marching with Chinese flag-waving friends prior to incident 



> Paul Joseph Watson
> Prison Planet
> Monday, April 14, 2008
> |
> ...




to view full article and photos, go to link... http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2008/041408_staged_attack.htm


----------



## juw177 (15 April 2008)

Metric, use your head, why would China sabotage their own olympic games leading up to the event? Looks like their plan is working isn't it?

I find the following a lot more believable:

US government behind torch violence... makes you think just who are those people so passionately disrupting the torch relay:
http://www.workers.org/2008/world/anti-china_olympics_0403/


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (15 April 2008)

metric said:


> Did China Stage Tibetan "Attack" On Wheelchair-Bound Woman?
> Image shows culprit marching with Chinese flag-waving friends prior to incident
> 
> 
> ...




Re the PLA soldiers dressing as monks - same thing was done in Burma by the army. The monks knew about it and all monks were encouraged to look out for "white heads", known as such because anyone who had just shaved their head would be a standout and treated with suspicion.


----------



## juw177 (15 April 2008)

The cliche image of the peaceful monk that sets themselves on fire is crucial to the marketing of these questionable freedom movements by the west.

The truth is monks like the Tibetans have a history of violence. But when the stereotype is threatened, they need a convenient justification for it, so lets just call those murderers and vandals government officials in disguise!

Propaganda is alive and well in the west and people like A2A happily lap it up.


----------



## Aussie2Aussie (15 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> The cliche image of the peaceful monk that sets themselves on fire is crucial to the marketing of these questionable freedom movements by the west.
> 
> The truth is monks like the Tibetans have a history of violence. But when the stereotype is threatened, they need a convenient justification for it, so lets just call those murderers and vandals government officials in disguise!
> 
> Propaganda is alive and well in the west and people like A2A happily lap it up.




juw, actually nobody (including myself) claimed that in Burma, the army participated in violence when they were dressed as monks. The army dressed as monks in order to spy on the marchers activities.

Get a grip juw, or up the meds!


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 April 2008)

We should remember that a vote or demonstration for "Free Tibet" as against "meaningful autonomy within China"  is making it more difficult for the Dalai Lama to get his message across. 

  HH the Dalai Lama on Middle Way approach. - 


> I'm against independence, against separation, against Free Tibet.
> FOR meaningful autonomy. modernisation, development.
> Of course FOR preserving Tibetan identity, culture, Buddhist religion.
> 
> With this belief I have drawn some criticisms - not only Tibetans, but also some of our international friends.  - but I'm fully committed to the Middle Road


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 April 2008)

- West Papua documentary (Part 1) - never screened outside UK

for interest,  another culture being erased.   (Report by Evan Williams)
Closer to home and all. 

The press cannot film openly etc 
Repression of the locals
Indons subsidised to settle there and break up the local culture
Students who demonstrate go missing in crackdowns.
In short, sounds a bit like Tibet really. 

And Australia ever played a part in their history / predicament 



> THE AUSTRALIAN AND INDONESIAN GOVERNMENTS DO NOT WANT YOU TO SEE THIS DOCUMENTARY
> 
> This is part 1 of an excellent and rare TV documentary about West Papua. A year on from its original UK screening it still has not been broadcast in any other country.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 April 2008)

Millions of oppressed out there, not just Tibet .. how about India...?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=unreported+world&search_type=

:topic Unreported world...
68 youtubes, mountains of atrocities going on out there 
here's just one example ... India's Dalits 

This youtube starts off with murder of a family when the father takes uppercaste neighbours to court ...

moves on to treatment of kids, who go to school - not permitted to use the toilets - one asks can he use toilets, he's locked in cubicle for 6 hours - teachers refuse to answer questions, humiliates him as a "smelly rat-eater" -  By the time they are 7, 70% have left.  Most children are malnourished - almost none can read.  Forced to catch and eat rats - no income etc ..



> As India emerges onto the world stage it will face international scrutiny and pressure on the Dalits - a situation its own PM describes as a blot on humanity... etc




 Unreported world india - "the broken people" part 3/3


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 April 2008)

I reckon CNN might find themselves on the wrong side of an Olympic boycott if they're not careful.  

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/16/2218019.htm?section=justin



> China demands CNN apologise for analyst's comments
> Posted 6 hours 24 minutes ago
> 
> China has denounced comments by a CNN analyst who called China a "bunch of goons and thugs" and is demanding an apology for what it called "vile" remarks.
> ...




Meanwhile, things settling down with Taiwan ..  
Another example of "This too shall pass" as the Bhuddha said ?. 



> China announces flights to 'rogue' Taiwan
> By China correspondent Stephen McDonell
> Posted 8 hours 45 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## juw177 (16 April 2008)

Thats quite sad 2020hindsight.

The thing is, the majority of the people will listen to that CNN guy and think nothing of it. That is why western propaganda is so effective, the population is less likely to apply judgment to the media. Where as in China it is common knowledge that their media is used for propaganda.


----------



## disarray (16 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> That is why western propaganda is so effective, the population is less likely to apply judgment to the media.




wrong, we routinely savage our media. media watch, chasers etc. and stop generalising about how everyone just watches CNN and forms their opinions based on whatever garbage they present us with. how about i generalise that all chinese are mindless puppets who do whatever the central government tells them to do. accurate yes?


----------



## juw177 (16 April 2008)

disarray said:


> how about i generalise that all chinese are mindless puppets who do whatever the central government tells them to do. accurate yes?




Um hello? That is already a given in our media: Chinese are mindless puppets and Tibetans stand up to the government and fight for freedom.

I disagree with "salvaging media". Current affairs is an easy target by the Chaser. Mediawatch yes, but who watches it late a night? If only there was more of that. But given the state of media ownership I doubt it.

And it is not what is reported, it is what goes unreported. But that is another debate.


----------



## robert toms (16 April 2008)

A salutary lesson in media manipulation or propaganda was when the WMD inculcation was taking place.
Not one journalist came out and said this sound like a heap of BS to me.
Murdoch journalists and news outlets all followed their script perfectly.
When Andrew Wilkie came  said that the information was not credible,the media tried to vilify him,attacked his character in order to remove what credibility he had.
Polls showed that 95% of Americans believed that Saddam had WMDs.
I wonder where they gained that impression? 
The only paper that I could get a letter to the editor with a counter view to the WMD belief was in Norway.
The only newspaper that I buy is the Weekend Australian on a Saturday...only for the financial section and TV programmes.
But I see in that paper that Greg "Rabbi" Sheridan is trying to encourage a war with Iran.How long before this call spreads.....depends on the Pentagon I suppose
Some beast our media...not to be taken too seriously!


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> 1. The only paper that I could get a letter to the editor with a counter view to the WMD belief was in Norway.
> ...
> 2. Some beast our media...not to be taken too seriously!



1. well done  - can you speak Norwegian?

2. WDM indeed -  another absolute classic case of an out-of-control media and a totally gullible public would have to be the Lindy Chamberlain case (imo)


----------



## disarray (16 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> Um hello? That is already a given in our media: Chinese are mindless puppets and Tibetans stand up to the government and fight for freedom.




rubbish. you're generalising again.  and it's "our" media now is it? do you identify as an australian? a chinese? a chinese australian? an australian chinese? nice to be flexible and have a choice in bias depending on the argument.



> I disagree with "salvaging media". Current affairs is an easy target by the Chaser. Mediawatch yes, but who watches it late a night? If only there was more of that. But given the state of media ownership I doubt it.
> 
> And it is not what is reported, it is what goes unreported. But that is another debate.




for everything else, there's internet.

and robert, there were plenty of people who didn't believe the WMD story and were quite vocal about it. the fact is however that iraq DID have WMD's and had been recorded using them so its not a difficult stretch. sure we all know it was ultimately about oil but saddam was an asshole and he did have WMD's so it was easy for the media to run off with their assumptions (as they tend to do).


----------



## Superfly (17 April 2008)

> Polls showed that 95% of Americans believed that Saddam had WMDs.
> I wonder where they gained that impression?




Saddam had WMD and used them.. do you disagree with tha R Toms 20/20.. Saddam had 11 years (that the US gave him)to come clean and messed around the UN weapons inspectors for 11 years.. do you disagree with that R Toms 20/20... the only way to ever be sure that WMD were no more is when a marine has walked over that ground... Saddam even had 48 hrs to leave office and avoid an invasion but did not..[/quote] 


> But I see in that paper that Greg "Rabbi" Sheridan is trying to encourage a war with Iran.How long before this call spreads.....depends on the Pentagon I suppose



So you think that it's ok for Iran to get the bomb...


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> the only way to ever be sure that WMD were no more is when a marine has walked over that ground... ...




so if the WDM were under the ground that the marines walked on 
 would that mean he also had submarines ?


----------



## Superfly (17 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> We should remember that a vote or demonstration for "Free Tibet" as against "meaningful autonomy within China"  is making it more difficult for the Dalai Lama to get his message across.




The D Lama doesn't want to get all his people shot... which is a real possibility when a country is in the hands of the Chinese communist party.


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> The D Lama doesn't want to get all his people shot... which is a real possibility when a country is in the hands of the Chinese communist party.



he also wants the development that being a part of China brings. 
he is prepared to offend "Free Tibet" agitators / friends on the matter. 

listen to that youtube - he says so in as many words. 

but he is committed to the "middle road".  
as posted a few posts back..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_362fG7xtao

PS he had threatened to resign if the violent demonstrations (including monks and students) continue


----------



## Superfly (17 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> he also wants the development that being a part of China brings.
> he is prepared to offend "Free Tibet" agitators / friends on the matter.
> 
> listen to that youtube - he says so in as many words.
> ...




D Lama doesn't have much choice when stareing down the gun barrel of the Chinese communist party...

But the IOC did have a choice ... and now so do the athletes...


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> But the IOC did have a choice ... and now so do the athletes...



and as I said before, if you were an athlete, then you could boycott it by all means


----------



## Superfly (18 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> and as I said before, if you were an athlete, then you could boycott it by all means




... there are many other world meets, the Olympics is not the only world meet were athletes can show their stuff...

and who pays for the Austalian Institute of Sport were most of the athletes learn their skills and train... we do have the right by way of a government boycott to not send our athletes to perform in a country run by a murderous regime....


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> ... there are many other world meets, the Olympics is not the only world meet were athletes can show their stuff...
> 
> and who pays for the Austalian Institute of Sport were most of the athletes learn their skills and train... we do have the right by way of a government boycott to not send our athletes to perform in a country run by a murderous regime....



so now you're gonna tell the athletes that you paid 0.00001% of their training , so therefore they should listen to you and boycott the games ?


----------



## Superfly (18 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> so if the WDM were under the ground that the marines walked on
> would that mean he also had submarines ?




..yeh great answer 20/20.( not that your avoiding an answering the previous)..


----------



## juw177 (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> ..yeh great answer 20/20.( not that your avoiding an answering the previous)..




Funny coming from someone who closes his eyes when given facts that are anti neo con.


----------



## STRAT (18 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> It is quite sad that the majority of people in Western countries with their biased media are so ignorant about what is going on in China. Ok, so the Tianaman Square incident happened about 20 years ago. What are the other ones on your list? And what media silence are you talking about? Tibet has been blown out of proportion in western news everyday for the past week.
> 
> I bet you also think that Chinese secret communist police kills unborn babies if a mother has already got one child. It is no wonder that the average Westerner see China as a backward nation.
> 
> ...



Well said and good luck changing the minds of people who believe what their TV tells them to believe. You are gonna need it


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 April 2008)

I must admit to liking Chinese people.

In my dealings with them I've found them to be caring people with a sense of humour. They are also inveterate punters with a gamblers sense of acceptance pragmatism and karma. 

Their history has been tumultous and less than a hundred years ago many were addicts to opium as a result of European imperialist greed.

We would be crazy to boycott the Olympics. We export so much ore and coal that pissing these people off would be more to our disadvantage than theirs. 

The leftie push to fix the world all at once is ill advised, especiallly when it comes to China. 

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We would be crazy to boycott the Olympics. We export so much ore and coal that pissing these people off would be more to our disadvantage than theirs.
> 
> The leftie push to fix the world all at once is ill advised, especiallly when it comes to China.



agreed gg
but you're gonna have to convince our leftie mate superfly to that effect


----------



## robert toms (18 April 2008)

Superfly reminds me of myself when I was about sixteen .

I wish I knew where he bought his tuning fork from?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Superfly (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Saddam had WMD and used them.. do you disagree with tha R Toms 20/20.. Saddam had 11 years (that the US gave him)to come clean and messed around the UN weapons inspectors for 11 years.. do you disagree with that R Toms 20/20... the only way to ever be sure that WMD were no more is when a marine has walked over that ground... Saddam even had 48 hrs to leave office and avoid an invasion but did not..




No reply ?


----------



## juw177 (18 April 2008)

No reply necessary Superfly because we know that it is propaganda.

As I said before, it is time to wake up from your American world domination fantasies. Stop making new threads about it please.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> D Lama doesn't have much choice when stareing down the gun barrel of the Chinese communist party...
> 
> But the IOC did have a choice ... and now so do the athletes...




There are three Asians countries that have a history of collective madness, Cambodia, Korea and Tibet.

Genocide , misogyny and mass religious hysteria characterise all three in one way or another.

The dalai seems like a nice enough bloke, and he plays to our need for a transcendental space between other new items and the TV ads.

However the evidence would be that Tibet was no shangri-la before the Chinese went in.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Saddam had WMD and used them.. do you disagree with tha R Toms 20/20.. Saddam had 11 years (that the US gave him)to come clean and messed around the UN weapons inspectors for 11 years.. do you disagree
> 
> No reply ?



course he had WMD
we still have the receipts !


----------



## Superfly (18 April 2008)

juw177 said:


> No reply necessary Superfly because we know that it is propaganda.
> 
> As I said before, it is time to wake up from your American world domination fantasies. Stop making new threads about it please.




Juw.. listen.. this is the west... not one of your communist party chat rooms or meetings... it's ok for u to call me a neo-con.....people can start threads as they please within the rules, just because u may not like the content, does not mean it will not be posted. This is not a communist state ( as much u may want it to be ).


----------



## Superfly (18 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> course he had WMD
> we still have the receipts !




So now it's all a joke, when faced with what really happened...


----------



## robert toms (18 April 2008)

Whether you like it or not it was a contrived filthy lie...
Those are the facts on WMD's in Iraq....do not try to justify criminality!
You seem to believe what the media and the US tells you ...I know that thinking for yourself is optional .... but Superfly please consider.


----------



## juw177 (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> Juw.. listen.. this is the west... not one of your communist party chat rooms or meetings... it's ok for u to call me a neo-con.....people can start threads as they please within the rules, just because u may not like the content, does not mean it will not be posted. This is not a communist state ( as much u may want it to be ).




And in the west, we use English with proper spelling and punctuation.

If you are that much of a patriot, by all means post more of your US domination fantasies, I, and surely some others here will find it entertaining.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2008)

Superfly said:


> So now it's all a joke, when faced with what really happened...



well who do you think sold the original weapons to him ? 
if we didn't keep the receipts out of embarrassment, then that's another story I guess.


----------



## Superfly (19 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> Whether you like it or not it was a contrived filthy lie...




...all Saddam had to do was allow the UN weapon inspectors unrestricted access, which Saddam never did for 11 years... it's fact that Saddam did have and had used these types of weapons in the past...

Always that slight chance that these weapons may have been shipped into Iran or Syria or buried somewhere in the vast deserts of Iraq.... but with the repercussions from the west of such an act, it is doubtful but possible...

.. what where the UN weapon inspectors looking for over the 11 years if it was such a filthy lie..why 11 years of restricted access ...


----------



## Superfly (19 April 2008)

In Bangkok the government has said that any foreigner found protesting against the Torch rely which be deported and banned forever from the country...

Such protests all over the world !!...hope some athletes take a stand... although it would be very effective to see a "democrarcy for China" sign in Mandarin & English held up on a podiem by a medal winner.. good value with that... but much better to not show at all...hope some other athletes listen to Dawn Fraser...


----------



## Superfly (21 April 2008)

1+ million ... for Torch relay security ... !!


----------



## 2020hindsight (25 April 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/25/2227800.htm


> China to meet Dalai Lama envoys: reports
> Posted 2 hours 52 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 53 minutes ago
> 
> ...


----------



## Superfly (26 April 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/25/2227800.htm




What about the recent interview with a Chinese spokes woman who denounced the torch protests as people not knowing what was the real truth in Tibet and everyone should go to Tibet and see what is happening to see the real story... when all the excited foreign correspondents asked if eveyone can now go to Tibet, she said "no, due to special circumstances"... 

You can see by the actions of the pro Chinese protestors in Canberra the way the Chinese think on this... they all say how the Chinese news is *hit and do not believe anything they read in Chinese media, but all seem to think that the D Lama is no good and Tibet is part of China....so the Chinese government is getting the message through regardless... why aren't the Chinese flag holding protestors living in China under the regime that they are supporting if it's so good....hmmmm... be it some maybe students on short term visa's, but not all....


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

well SF, I'd have to agree that there's a world of difference between "forthcoming discussions with representative of the Dalai Lama IN GOOD SPIRIT"

and what seems to be happening in the leadup to said meetings..  

PS  Be interesting to see what comes of these talks.  
Face saving on the one hand - pacifying the international public and olympic spectators (and potential tourists) on the other.   Would be worth big bucks to China to be seen to be listening to the DL (at least) you'd think. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/03/2234521.htm?section=justin



> *China slams Dalai Lama ahead of talks*
> Posted 9 minutes ago
> 
> *China has kept up a barrage of criticism against the Dalai Lama, even as two of his envoys were set to arrive for talks on unrest in Tibet that has marred the run-up to the Olympics.*
> ...




Dalai clique are starting to sound like some modern equivalent of the Gang of Four  



> "As long as the Dalai clique still exists, our struggle with the Dalai clique will not stop. We must raise our vigilance and absolutely cannot relax," the newspaper said Saturday (local time).
> 
> *Beijing last month offered to reopen dialogue, a move widely seen as a response to global pressure over China's crackdown on unrest in Tibet*.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

PS the torch to Mt Everest might be in trouble - snow etc


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/03/2234504.htm?section=justin
> Himalayan snowfall hits Everest torch bid
> Posted 1 hour 19 minutes ago
> 
> ...




Reminds me of that doco on Mao's Great March - when they trudged over nearby mountain ranges, and also through swampy ground - trying to escape Chiang Kai Shek.   - they were decimated by the weather of course ....

and whenever they weakened , and lay down knowing that they would die of exposure, they stripped off and made a small neat pile of their clothes beside their body, so that others could easily choose from its pickings as required.  



> Mr Liu has climbed the highest mountain on each of the seven continents and reached the north and south poles.



How impressive that Mr Liu has scaled the dizzy heights of Kosciusko. (assuming that and not Carstenz Pyramid in Irian Jaya, "Tectonically speaking on the same continental plate as Australia" ).

http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150910/mount-kosciusko-tar-gan-gil.html


> Mount Kosciusko,is the highest mountain in Kosciusko National Park, the highest mountain in New South Wales, the highest mountain in the Snowy Mountains, and is the highest mountain in Australia.
> 
> It is not however, the highest mountain on Australian Territory. This honour belongs to Mawson Peak with a height of 2745 meters , being the highest summit of "Big Ben" on Heard Island in the Australian sub Antarctic territory of Heard & McDonald Islands.
> 
> Mt Kosciusko is part of the Great Dividing Range which straddles the state boundaries of Victoria and New South Wales in the immediate vicinity of the mountain, and then forms a chain stretching north all the way into tropical far-north Queensland. Mount Kosciusko is located half-way (280 miles/450km from each) between Sydney and Melbourne in Southeastern Australia. etc



Have a look at the jpeg to see a truly terrifying climbing challenge


----------



## Happy (6 May 2008)

> From ABC, 6 May. 08
> CHINA VIRUS DEATH TOLL RISES
> By Radio National's Sonja Heydeman
> 
> ...




Some people planning to travel to China might feel understandably unsettled, since communist regimes not always say everything.


----------

