# WW3



## It's Snake Pliskin (18 July 2006)

Any of you think WW3 will happen or not?

Read this and decide for yourself:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-she...-borderless-war/2006/07/16/1152988408994.html


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## YOUNG_TRADER (18 July 2006)

You're eager for some action aren't you Snake?   

Was Snake Pliskin the character from 'Escape from Los Angeles' or something like that?


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## kgee (18 July 2006)

scaremongerer's


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## swingstar (18 July 2006)

Didn't Nostradamus predict war around now? Supposed to last until 2020? 

If it happens, just hope you're not in Italy


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## wayneL (18 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Any of you think WW3 will happen or not?
> 
> Read this and decide for yourself:
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-she...-borderless-war/2006/07/16/1152988408994.html




There doesn't seem to be a lot of resolve to avoid it does there?

This is a %^$&ing dangerous game the Yanks, Islamists, Zionists, Koreans etc are playing.

What's the saying? "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" or something like that!  

Buckle up! It's going to be a rough ride nevertheless!


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## nelly (18 July 2006)

Thanx 4 that SP........now i feel all warm and fuzzy...  
cheers


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## Rafa (18 July 2006)

I think you might be right Snake...

Some few key points from the ariticle...



> "By blaming the Lebanese Government for Hezbollah's actions, Israel has demanded the impossible from its neighbour."





As if Iraq wasn't warning enought, Israel, have chosen to escalate the conflict, and have taken the bait offered to them, in the form of two soldiers being kidnapped. (similar to the relatively minor instances that started off WWI and WWII)... Israel has now the majority of the world opinion against it...



> "Iran, the prototype of the modern Islamic theocracy (which also wants the nuclear bomb to match and trump Israel's nuclear option), is stronger today than it was a week ago. It already wields disproportionate power in the Middle East through its proxies helping to tie down 150,000 US troops in Iraq, which is 60 per cent Shiite. Now, thanks to its proxies in Lebanon, Israel has been goaded into an attack on a democratic neighbour."




As things stand now, Israel is fighting on two fronts, Lebanon and Palestine, and Syria and Iran looking on menacingly.... The US is bogged down in Iraq... and is streched to the limit... and Iran is looking on with glee...

Syria and Iran are probably going to let this continue for a while... biding their time waiting for an oppurtune moment when Israel and US are weakend.... before striking...

The only thing that will save the US and Israel is their nuclear weapons... I can't see them win the war with conventional weapons alone!


PS: talking about being suckers... I would not be surpised if the mis-information of Iraqis weapons of mass destruction was fed to US by Iran... A strong Iraq was vital to balance the threat of a strong Iran...  This was always the policy of all US administrations except Bush! The IDIOTS called the coalition of the willing have now installed Iranian (****e) rule in Iraq.... !  

BUT.... the US have the nukes....


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## the_godfather4 (18 July 2006)

There are so many western scholar theories regarding why these so called "terrorists" do what they do........What is so frustrating is that no one in the mainstream media has stopped and simply asked What has driven these people to be willing to die for their 'cause'........I think if we look back to 1948 when Israel 'settled' in Palestine, maybe then we begin to understand a tiny bit of WHY these guys are so pissed off!!!!   

Im sorry but if my neighbour decided to move into my house and claim it as his own, then force me to live in the laundry while he killed my kids for not getting out of their rooms and raped my wife and mother at will while telling the local papers that he had a right to protect himself from me because i was getting a little annoyed and wanted to kill him and his family then maybe IM in the wrong.......   

Lets not be so brainwashed by the media, lets research history and get to the 'ACTUAL' root of the problem.....this newspaper clip is just one more scaremongering crowd pleasing narrative by an ignorant journalist....... BTW im not islamic and i do not support this so called 'terrorism' but I have researched this stuff in detail and I cant believe the masses are letting these lies go on and on......we need to open our eyes


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## Ageo (18 July 2006)

Well i do know 1 thing if it starts to escalate into something much bigger than i know what i must do to serve my country.


Go Short on the market!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While useless wars are fought and billions of dollars are wasted ill just make more money and donate some of it back to people who really need it.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 July 2006)

kgee said:
			
		

> scaremongerer's




There are those who are head in the sand and PC.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 July 2006)

> Syria and Iran are probably going to let this continue for a while... biding their time waiting for an oppurtune moment when Israel and US are weakend.... before striking...
> 
> The only thing that will save the US and Israel is their nuclear weapons... I can't see them win the war with conventional weapons alone!




Israel could handle Syria, no doubt. Look at history when they were attacked from all sides and fended off the attackers. It has been the policy of Israel to live in peace, but they don`t get it. 

As for Iran, they are running on borrowed time. Change of power there is the only option for future peace in the area. It won`t come to nukes unless Iran drops one first.


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## Rafa (18 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Look at history when they were attacked from all sides and fended off the attackers. It has been the policy of Israel to live in peace, but they don`t get it.





Hmmm, i think Israel attacked first... in the 6 day war... when it took over territories over and above what was given to it by the UN... The Jewish settlements in territories occupied in the 1967 war lead to the formation of PLO and Hamas... who naturally wanted their land back.

found a few excerpts on the internet (google)


> "The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."






> "In violation of international law, Israel has confiscated over 52 percent of the land in the West Bank and 30 percent of the Gaza Strip for military use or for settlement by Jewish civilians...From 1967 to 1982, Israel's military government demolished 1,338 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Over this period, more than 300,000 Palestinians were detained without trial for various periods by Israeli security forces." Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation," ed. Lockman and Beinin.







> "A study of students at Bethlehem University reported by the Coordinating Committee of International NGOs in Jerusalem showed that many families frequently go five days a week without running water...The study goes further to report that, 'water quotas restrict usage by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, while Israeli settlers have almost unlimited amounts.'
> 
> "A summer trip to a Jewish settlement on the edge of the Judean desert less than five miles from Bethlehem confirmed this water inequity for us. While Bethlehemites were buying water from tank trucks at highly inflated rates, the lawns were green in the settlement. Sprinklers were going at mid day in the hot August sunshine. Sounds of children swimming in the outdoor pool added to the unreality." Betty Jane Bailey, in "The Link", December 1996.




but lets forget about whose right and wrong... that is in the past... in the end, you reap what you sow, either in this life, or the next (depending on your beleifs)

Back to the strategy of winning WWIII....
As things stand at the moment... I don't think the America and Israel can win a war, in Arab heartland, without using weapons of mass destruction!


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## Rafa (18 July 2006)

And before Snake or anyone else gets fired up about who is to blame...

here is the Jewish view point...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html



and this is where i found the other pro palestinian quotes from
http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html



Please read all points of view, to work out who is to blame...


I'm not really fussed on who is to blame, cause I am sure blame can be attributed to all sides... but rather, how do we stop, prevent, conclude, end the makings of WWIII!


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## mit (18 July 2006)

Another issue is that the Wacko's in the US think that this is the end of times and are pushing for the war to happen as it will bring about the rapture. 

MIT


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## blueroo (18 July 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> Well i do know 1 thing if it starts to escalate into something much bigger than i know what i must do to serve my country.
> 
> 
> Go Short on the market!!!!!!!!!!!!!



A bright light in a thread of gloom!


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## kgee (18 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> There are those who are head in the sand and PC.



After our discussion on whales I never thought you'd call me pc.  
It is scaremongering..  if you go looking for trouble it's pretty easy to find...it's been happening for years it doesn't mean the end of the world is coming anytime soon
My present view is Israel's aggression towards Hezzbaloah is as much a warning to Iran's Ahamadijenad ...theyv'e publicy stated that they won't let Iran go on with it's nucleur enrichment and I'd bet my bottom dollar they won't


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> And before Snake or anyone else gets fired up about who is to blame...
> 
> here is the Jewish view point...
> 
> ...




Thanks for the links Rafa.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 July 2006)

kgee said:
			
		

> After our discussion on whales I never thought you'd call me pc.
> It is scaremongering..  if you go looking for trouble it's pretty easy to find...it's been happening for years it doesn't mean the end of the world is coming anytime soon
> My present view is Israel's aggression towards Hezzbaloah is as much a warning to Iran's Ahamadijenad ...theyv'e publicy stated that they won't let Iran go on with it's nucleur enrichment and I'd bet my bottom dollar they won't




Kgee, 
I can`t remember the whale talk with you, I only remember regulars on this forum. Not calling you directly PC, just there are those who are though.

Lets not forget the fact that the disfunctional UN has ordered hezbollah to disarm. They attack Israel and Israel has a right to defend itself. Its that simple.

But hey, all arabs have the most rights, and can be terrorists and shun world opinion just because they are arabs and Islamic. Israel needs to look at itself hard too.

We are in WW3 now and it is going to get worse, just like it did under Hitler and Mussolinni, there were those saying oh it will never happen but look at history.


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## Rafa (18 July 2006)

No worries Snake...

Found another good pictorial representation... with a timeline...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/default.stm


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## Happy (18 July 2006)

Sars, even bird flu can stop the war, flu stopped WWI I, and if history repeats itself, there is a chance.


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## Mostafa (18 July 2006)

I think WW3 won’t happen but, what the_godfather4 said is considerable:



			
				the_godfather4 said:
			
		

> Im sorry but if my neighbour decided to move into my house and claim it as his own, then force me to live in the laundry while he killed my kids for not getting out of their rooms and raped my wife and mother at will while telling the local papers that he had a right to protect himself from me because i was getting a little annoyed and wanted to kill him and his family then maybe IM in the wrong.......
> 
> Lets not be so brainwashed by the media, lets research history and get to the 'ACTUAL' root of the problem.....this newspaper clip is just one more scaremongering crowd pleasing narrative by an ignorant journalist....... BTW im not islamic and i do not support this so called 'terrorism' but I have researched this stuff in detail and I cant believe the masses are letting these lies go on and on......we need to open our eyes


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## wayneL (19 July 2006)

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/weiss/2006/0717.html



> THREE WAR FORECASTS
> by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.
> Editor, Safe Money Report & MoneyandMarkets.com
> July 17, 2006
> ...


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## wayneL (19 July 2006)

They teach 'em to hate young over there. From Israel with love  :







Sickening on a whole bunch of different levels


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## Ageo (19 July 2006)

Nothing to live for i reckon.


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## visual (19 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> They teach 'em to hate young over there. From Israel with love  :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Another way of looking at this could be psychological.

Did you see the little boy who was being looked at in hospital yet was clutching a toy machine gun. He was palestinian.
The difference between the two in my opinion is that one will  be brought up in a twisted religious enviroment where the other one will not be.


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## Rafa (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> The difference between the two in my opinion is that one will  be brought up in a twisted religious enviroment where the other one will not be.




Twisted religions environment or simply twisted environment...

Religion is all they have in these parts of the world... and they look to religion to find solace in their predicament.... there is no hope, no life, no future... their land has been taken from them, their children, brothers, sistes, have been murdered..... 


Rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter... They can either be gutless, cowardly and surrender without a whimper, or draw on their last remaining vestiges of pride and fight back! 

What would you do???


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## visual (19 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Twisted religions environment or simply twisted environment...
> 
> Religion is all they have in these parts of the world... and they look to religion to find solace in their predicament.... there is no hope, no life, no future... their land has been taken from them, their children, brothers, sistes, have been murdered.....
> 
> ...




As for having only religion on this part of the world,look at Israel,they seem to have everything.Why dont the muslims?

And as for what I would do, I certainly would not bring up my children to blow themselves up,wherever Muslims are theres problems, all over the world!
why cant they ever behave like people who want peace? They seem hellbent on creating problems and when things blow up in their faces they claim that they are being discriminated on the basis of their religion. The Jews deserve to be safe, if it takes force to get that, so be it.


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## the_godfather4 (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> As for having only religion on this part of the world,look at Israel,they seem to have everything.Why dont the muslims?
> 
> And as for what I would do, I certainly would not bring up my children to blow themselves up,wherever Muslims are theres problems, all over the world!
> why cant they ever behave like people who want peace? They seem hellbent on creating problems and when things blow up in their faces they claim that they are being discriminated on the basis of their religion. The Jews deserve to be safe, if it takes force to get that, so be it.




Im sorry but i'm not sure where you are getting your facts from.....the only reason Israel has everything is because they have taken it by force with unconditional support from the USA......these people are only trying to get back what has always rightfully been theirs...THEIR COUNTRY!!! To state that where ever there are muslims there are problems is a very ignorant thing to say but it is unfortunately all we see on TV so we have been conditioned to believe it....... 
Let me paint a scenario that is a little closer to home...... If Indonesia decided they wanted to "Settle" in Oz and claim it as their own, would'nt we have a right to defend the invasion???? would'nt we all be out on the streets claiming our rights to our OWN land????? and if their soldiers forcefully kicked us out of our homes and shot our children and elderly at will would we not want revenge????? the fact that this is what Israel did 50 years ago (with the USA's and UK's blessing)and everyone seems to have forgotten makes me sick.......when u have nothing left and even your dignity has been taken from you, what else do u have to live for?????? Even though im not a muslim, I ask that we do not post racial taunts unless we have done our UNBIASED research to support our opinions


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## Rafa (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> As for having only religion on this part of the world,look at Israel,they seem to have everything.Why dont the muslims?




Well, here's your answer...
(i'll repeat what i posted previously...



> "A study of students at Bethlehem University reported by the Coordinating Committee of International NGOs in Jerusalem showed that many families frequently go five days a week without running water...The study goes further to report that, 'water quotas restrict usage by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, while Israeli settlers have almost unlimited amounts.'
> 
> "A summer trip to a Jewish settlement on the edge of the Judean desert less than five miles from Bethlehem confirmed this water inequity for us. While Bethlehemites were buying water from tank trucks at highly inflated rates, the lawns were green in the settlement. Sprinklers were going at mid day in the hot August sunshine. Sounds of children swimming in the outdoor pool added to the unreality." Betty Jane Bailey, in "The Link", December 1996.





Visual, i don't think the situation is as clear cut as you seem to understand it...

This is not something that happened many hundreds of years ago, and we can say to the palestinians...'just get over it!'

This happened in recent history, there are people alive today directly effected by it... any human with a smidgen of pride and self esteem would fight back...


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## visual (19 July 2006)

First I`m not racist,but you are entitled to your own beliefs.
Second Muslims do cause problems all over the world,they represent the highest unemployed group,in what ever country you care to look at.

Lets also not forget the little matter of six million Jews incinerated because they were Jews.
Also they bought land and established their own homeland.The problems seem to stem from the fact that they wanted to establish somewhere safe on land they owned, everything that followed is indisputable, but ask why, instead of spreading your own racist views.

Also wherever Jews go, they work hard and flourish, cant say the same for muslims. Lebanese Christians dont seem to have problems fitting in Lebanese muslims seem to want to behave like cavemen.


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## Rafa (19 July 2006)

Can I also say something else...


This is more than simply Jews vs Paletinians...

This is the US against Iran/Syria...

Hezbulla/Hamas is the Iran/Syrias outpost, just like Israel is a US outpost in the region...


As i said earlier.... whilst we can all sympathise with the innocent people being affected... and blame this religion and that... this is actually a proper strategic military offensive.... at this stage, its probing and proding... but could very easily escalate into a decisive WWIII... (remember, WWI and WWII started with a series of little sparks)

Religion, the Palestinians, the Lebanese, and the Israelites are all victims (or collateral damage) in the ultimate war between Iran and the US!

I have a bad feeling about this one...

Check this out from the Australian


> What made Hezbollah more than a nuisance was the fact that it was a forward outpost for Iran, which armed and trained its fighters and used them as a strategic threat against Israel.
> 
> The huge missile arsenal Tehran sent to Hezbollah - 13,000 missiles, according to Israel - was intended primarily as a deterrent against Israel should it contemplate an airstrike against its nuclear facilities.
> 
> ...


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## It's Snake Pliskin (19 July 2006)

If everyone dug a bit deeper into the histroy you would find how the arabs are not very trustful even amongst themselves. Just reserach who wanted to take palestine for themselves. Shock is what you will get because it isn`t the fairy tale you think it should be.

Visual you have it spot on.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (19 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> They teach 'em to hate young over there. From Israel with love  :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Where are the photos of little arabs with guns? Pretty biased.


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## 3 veiws of a secret (19 July 2006)

Middle East is a policy of "DIVIDE & RULE" .
In opening a pandoras box to say, give the Palestian's the same arms as the Isreali's have. What would the propaganda machine come up with next.
As for the 6 million Jews that died lets not forget Don Cortez, & Stalin.....so lets not get too carried away with emotions that the Jewish state keeps saying KEN KEN KEN!


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## Rafa (19 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> If everyone dug a bit deeper into the histroy you would find how the arabs are not very trustful even amongst themselves. Just reserach who wanted to take palestine for themselves. Shock is what you will get because it isn`t the fairy tale you think it should be.





Spot on... with one caveat... It has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with regional Power! 

And the various tribes have been waging this war since time began... (and long before Islam the religion existed!!!)


Nowadays of course, we have OIL!


For America to survive as a player in the region, it is vital that Israel survives... 

For the Saudi's and Jordan, its better to have America, than to have Iran ceasing the balance of power in the region... even more so now that Iraq is virtually Shiite thanks to the 'coalition of the idiots!' 

US Policy always supported a unified IRAQ with Saddam Hussein, till the Bush Jnr and his idealist neo con brigade rocked up! Now that Iraq is gone, the last remaining US stronghold is Israel, and is the only thing countering Iranian domination of the region...



Divide and Conquer creates untold suffering and misery, but it probably is the only way to prevent a super power state from developing in the Arabian peninsular... Imagine, an Arabian superpower, with control most of the worlds oil....!


There is a solution off course... stop using Oil... !


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## wayneL (19 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Where are the photos of little arabs with guns? Pretty biased.




In fairness SP, for Israel to be able to wear the white hat gifted to them by the western media, they should lift their game.

Israel is a terrorist state just as durely as hezbollah and all the other arab terrorist organisations are. They just have better propaganda.

cheers


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## visual (19 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> In fairness SP, for Israel to be able to wear the white hat gifted to them by the western media, they should lift their game.
> 
> Israel is a terrorist state just as durely as hezbollah and all the other arab terrorist organisations are. They just have better propaganda.
> 
> cheers




Wayne in fairness of balance you could`ve also shown the photo of the little boy clutching the machine gun,a toy,but nevertheless a gun.Whilst he was being carried on a stretcher presumably to hospital.That Israel is a terorrist state is your opinion,however in a balanced argument both photos would`ve said a lot more than what words can say.Of course they have better propoganda,they are also better organised,have a better army,have better equipment,should I go on...Hezbollah probably just has a fat bank balance.Like whats his name,whos now dead.


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## visual (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> they represent the highest unemployed group,in what ever country you care to look at.




Of course when I made that statement about muslims I meant countries where thay have migrated to,like western countries,such as Australia,France,Canada ect...

Just for clarity


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## wayneL (19 July 2006)

Now hang on just a doggone minute here. 

The photograph is to demostrate the atrocity which is war, not to support a particular side. 

So before people go running around demonstrating there own biases, I suggest a study of history as others have suggested.

Let my disgust be targeted at any society that involves its children in this manner... the other side too!

Our press however, under threat of being labeled antisemitic, only promotes the Israeli point of view, so don't get sucked in by the propaganda *again*! While our press brown-noses to Isreal, they (zionists) refer to us as goyim... look up the word.

There are no white hats! Remember that! These people will lead us into WW3.


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## wayneL (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Wayne in fairness of balance you could`ve also shown the photo of the little boy clutching the machine gun,a toy,but nevertheless a gun.Whilst he was being carried on a stretcher presumably to hospital.That Israel is a terorrist state is your opinion,however in a balanced argument both photos would`ve said a lot more than what words can say.Of course they have better propoganda,they are also better organised,have a better army,have better equipment,should I go on...Hezbollah probably just has a fat bank balance.Like whats his name,whos now dead.




BTW, where were the calls for balance when that photo was published? huh huh?


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## rub92me (19 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Of course when I made that statement about muslims I meant countries where thay have migrated to,like western countries,such as Australia,France,Canada ect...
> 
> Just for clarity




I am hoping these statements you make are in jest. I don't think unemployment is even measured by religious beliefs. Has it ever occurred to you that unemployment of migrants may be related to: poor education, how minorities are treated in those countries, etc.
I can only imagine your reaction if anyone would make the (equally uninformed and unsupported) statement that women are lazy and have the highest unemployment rates in any country you would care to look... :


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## kgee (19 July 2006)

I'm not saying Israel is right but it is easier to be sympathetic towards them...  how would you like to be born into a country where you are surrounded by neighbours that want to destroy you? and in truth your only real chance of survival is to be stonger than your enemies  
And wether they have a right to the land while been debatable I know what we'd say to the aborigine if they wanted their land back a whole different kettle of fish yes...but in someways it's not so different at all


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## the_godfather4 (19 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Our press however, under threat of being labeled antisemitic, only promotes the Israeli point of view, so don't get sucked in by the propaganda *again*! While our press brown-noses to Isreal, they (zionists) refer to us as goyim... look up the word.
> 
> There are no white hats! Remember that! These people will lead us into WW3.




Finally a breath of fresh air.....thank you WayneL for bringing this up.....brilliant point!!!!! Any anti israeli sentiment in always smashed down as "anti-semetic" yet Arabs, Asians, Muslims etc etc etc are constantly being hammered by the press.........and that's apparently OK????  

It blows me away that every time anti-israeli/jewish sentiment is hinted at, we r reminded of the 6mill that died in WWII.....what about the 20mill russians that perished in the same war??? what about the millions of other races that perished not only in WWII but since in numerous other wars......history reveals some interesting numbers........i'm not discounting the 6mill that perished but simply the millions of others that dont get the same mention or 5000 hollywood movies made about them......and its ok to hammer the 'goyim' as much as they like.......  

its a sad sad world.


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## visual (19 July 2006)

Wayne perhaps that study was right,it is much better to talk to people face to face,do`h!!!!!!!!

Personally I interpreted the photo as expressing an opinion about the behaviour of Israel not about behaviour of people at war in general.

You then go and make a statement about our press presenting only one view point,it was by accident that I stumbled upon a documentary on Genin the camp that Israel is said to have destroyed and thousands of people killed,that was bogus.But the myth persists,recently the bombing on the beach was also attributed to Israel,again not truth,but look at what those particular stories were leading to.

So basically if you approach these stories without a preconceived view point sometimes you can see a balance.

As for them referring to us as goym,so tell me when was the last time someone referred to someone who didnt like spending money as a Jew.
Its not as if we use the word with any respect,actually I`m excluding myself from that because I certainly have brought up my children never to use that word ,to convey that meaning.

One day Wayne a survivor of the Holocaust(a doctor) actually tried to tell me that because I am Italian I was responsable for the holocaust.I was p****d off for weeks,but then I thought being a Jew doesnt exclude him from being a moron.

As for them leading us into the next world war,I doubt it,but in any case people have always found a reason to kill each other,we just think it`s wrong because we havent had to deal with it,on a personal basis,only discuss it.The way other people moved on so will we.I know it sounds terrible but its better than worrying about something that might never happen and if it does,well
C`est la vie :


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## the_godfather4 (19 July 2006)

And for those who still support Israel "defending itself", just check this carnage out:

www.lebanonunderattack.com <<==Warning- Very Graphic!

Balanced or unbalanced, i dont give a F*#@.......this is not "defending itself" this is the work of Savage Barbarians!!!!!!


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## visual (19 July 2006)

rub92me said:
			
		

> I am hoping these statements you make are in jest. I don't think unemployment is even measured by religious beliefs. Has it ever occurred to you that unemployment of migrants may be related to: poor education, how minorities are treated in those countries, etc.
> I can only imagine your reaction if anyone would make the (equally uninformed and unsupported) statement that women are lazy and have the highest unemployment rates in any country you would care to look... :




This was a study done recently that showed their level of unemployment compared to people of similar backgrounds.
So for example Lebanese of Christian backgrounds as compared to lebanese muslims.I think the study found that something like 45% of muslims from this background rely on welfare for their main income.Unfortunately this also included their children.It shouldnt be too difficult to look up.


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## Julia (19 July 2006)

Letter to Crikey.com today


Quote

Greg Poropat writes: John Howard says that, in the strongest terms, no criticism is warranted of his Government's efforts in evacuating Australian citizens from Lebanon and that everything possible is being done. Alexander Downer says the Israelis won't allow a temporary ceasefire and a corridor for the evacuation of Australians. But is our Government doing everything it can? The world knows the influence the United States has over Israel. With so many Australians in such grave danger, now is the time for John Howard to cash in some of his chips with George Bush. Our Prime Minister should get on the blower to Bush and tell him it's time for payback and that Bush must coerce the Israelis into allowing safe passage for Australians. And he should make it clear that if Bush is not successful, Australia will withdraw its troops from Iraq immediately. If Howard does not try to leverage Bush for this outcome and Australians are hurt or die on the end of Israeli arms, Howard will share in the blame. And if he does try it on Bush without result, we'll know just how much the US really does value its deputy sheriff. 


D o you agree???

Julia


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## mit (19 July 2006)

Julia,

Agree 100%. There has been no criticism at all of Israel by our government or the US government. I wonder how the thousands of Australian Lebanese in Lebanon feel about this or the reported 10 thousand American Lebanese feel about it. I wonder if this will blow back on both Government. Israel has every right to attack the Hezbolah but their shelling seems to be pretty indiscriminate so far.

Australia and the US should be demanding that Israel stop long enough for non-combatants to get out.

MIT


----------



## swingstar (19 July 2006)

I'm sure the US have tried. Don't forget they have a lot of citizens over there as well.


----------



## Bobby (19 July 2006)

swingstar said:
			
		

> I'm sure the US have tried. Don't forget they have a lot of citizens over there as well.



 Correct---?!
REal citizans are those that do *NOT* have dule citerzenship .
This is an observation, not my personal thoughts.

Bob.


----------



## swingstar (19 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Correct---?!
> REal citizans are those that do *NOT* have dule citerzenship .
> This is an observation, not my personal thoughts.
> 
> Bob.




Whatever the case, it's estimated that there are the same amount of Americans as there are Australians over there. I'm sure our governments have pleaded enough. Maybe Israel are listening though? They're not exactly applying full force yet - they're mostly hitting infrastructure. You have to ask why they are doing this. Possibly preparing for something bigger, once non-citizens are out?


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (20 July 2006)

Hezbollah puts its infrastructure in neighbour hoods next to houses and schools etc. They hide behind skirts and children, then wage propaganda to maintain their cause.

Those photos in the link were graphic and I am sorry as a human that it has all occured. But, hezbollah is responsible! Lets not forget that. Disarm and the problem goes away.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2006)

Comment from CNNNNN's Lou Dobbs. 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html

The only guy in the MSM with any balls.


----------



## RodC (20 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Do you agree???





Yes, I agree. Although we shouldn't have gone to Iraq in the first place.

Rod.


----------



## the_godfather4 (20 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Comment from CNNNNN's Lou Dobbs.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html
> 
> The only guy in the MSM with any balls.




NICE!!! Finally a voice of reason and logic in the US media....I wonder how long it will be before he is labelled "anti-semetic" and "unpatriotic" and ripped off the air.....only a matter of time unfortunately


----------



## rub92me (20 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> This was a study done recently that showed their level of unemployment compared to people of similar backgrounds.
> So for example Lebanese of Christian backgrounds as compared to lebanese muslims.I think the study found that something like 45% of muslims from this background rely on welfare for their main income.Unfortunately this also included their children.It shouldnt be too difficult to look up.




I think you are referring to a study done about Lebanese in Australia. 
1) How would a study about 1 ethnic group in 1 country be justifiable support for your statement about all muslims in all countries?
2) I suspect you only picked up selective out of context quotes from this study from one of the populist rags. If you had actually bothered to read the results of the study, you'd see there isn't anything in there that would even support your opinion for muslims from 1 ethnic group in 1 country...


----------



## visual (20 July 2006)

I really cant remember,but I went looking for it,and googled it,and found lots of information on it.Muslims do have a rate of unemployment much higher.Compared to everyone else,

Because I didnt know what the study was,I googled ,muslim unemployment.


----------



## noirua (20 July 2006)

rub92me said:
			
		

> I think you are referring to a study done about Lebanese in Australia.
> 1) How would a study about 1 ethnic group in 1 country be justifiable support for your statement about all muslims in all countries?
> 2) I suspect you only picked up selective out of context quotes from this study from one of the populist rags. If you had actually bothered to read the results of the study, you'd see there isn't anything in there that would even support your opinion for muslims from 1 ethnic group in 1 country...




The following is a bit dated, but I'm sure there is a lot more information out there on Lebanese Muslims in Australia.: http://www.hreoc.gov.au/human_rights/children_detention/submissions/trad.html


----------



## professor_frink (20 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> I really cant remember,but I went looking for it,and googled it,and found lots of information on it.Muslims do have a rate of enemployment much higher.Compared to everyone else,
> 
> Because I didnt know what the study was,I googled ,muslim enemployment.




Visual,
Depending on which side of this kind of argument a person is on will determine how they perceive those statistics-
they are discriminated against, or they refuse to assimilate.

It doesn't really prove anything conclusive.


----------



## visual (20 July 2006)

Keisar Trad,hmmmmmm sorry this thread is going off topic,but seeing that he has since being discredited,I think he can safely be ignored.


----------



## Rafa (20 July 2006)

spot on once again Prof...

Ok, back to the topic... WWIII

found some interesting articles in todays The Australia of all places...

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19849601-601,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19848285-601,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19850354-1702,00.html


Quoting some of the good bits...



> The immense power that the new price of oil gives to the most recalcitrant and difficult regimes in the Middle East is fundamental to today's problems. Iran and Syria are behind Hezbollah; not that they created Hezbollah, or that they control it absolutely, but they have armed and financed it and have a great deal of influence over it.







> Everybody knows Syria is behind this, backed by Iran. Everyone also knows that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons... yet no action is being taken against Iran.
> 
> Tehran can finance the supply of rockets, even sophisticated, precision-guided missiles, to Hezbollah, ... , out of loose change.
> 
> Yet, short of military intervention with all the vast dangers that entails, what could possibly be done against Iran? In a world increasingly short of oil, no one is going to subject Iran to real sanctions.







> The New York Times's Tom Friedman, an acute analyst of the Middle East, has argued that when oil prices rise above a certain level there is no prospect of democratic reform in the Middle East. This is because the governing elites have all the money they need to pay their armies, look after their friends and bribe intermediaries. And terrorists can easily extort or solicit money from these regimes.






> Iran wants attention distracted from its nuclear program. It wants a new front to wage its anti-Western campaign. It wants ideological leadership in the Islamist struggle against Israel. It wants to demonstrate its power to make the West even less likely to take real action against it.
> 
> Hezbollah may have over-played its hand but is surely satisfied that Israel is again the villain on the international stage and that it has thrown the Lebanese political order into chaos.
> 
> Israel has sought to hold a state, Lebanon, responsible for the actions of a non-state actor, Hezbollah. But the broad action against so much of Lebanon is morally wrong and strategically ill-advised.






> An Israeli strike against Syria's armed forces would have shown Assad he had to pay a price for Hezbollah's activities. Striking Lebanon, which is weak and cannot fight back, causes Assad, and the rulers in Tehran, no pain at all.





Also.... 


> Hezbollah's attack on Israel has exposed deep divisions in the Arab world that have paralysed the league, the 22-member bloc that has often served only to advertise how little in common the region has.
> 
> Sunni leaders' alarm at Hezbollah's move also reveals their deep fear about the emergence of a "Shia crescent" of power that would run from Iran, through Iraq, to Syria (a largely Sunni country led by a Shia splinter group) and to southern Lebanon itself.





And finally the PM of Lebanon


> ISRAEL'S military campaign in Lebanon would fail, Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora has warned in an interview published in London today, hinting that it could instead increase support for Hezbollah.
> 
> The premier also said the bombardment, which has killed 327 people, mainly civilians, in just eight days, was more violent than a previous Israeli invasion in 1982.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rafa (20 July 2006)

Reading the above, there is more to it than it simply being the fault of the Muslim, Jews, West, East, etc...

To look at it simply from that point of view, is, in my opinion, naive... 

these are age old tribes fighting age old wars to hold the balance of power to control an entire region... who now have the money, resources and strategic political leverage to up the ante...

WWIII, Snake, this certainly is.... funded by our insatiable demand for oil!


----------



## visual (20 July 2006)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> Visual,
> Depending on which side of this kind of argument a person is on will determine how they perceive those statistics-
> they are discriminated against, or they refuse to assimilate.
> 
> It doesn't really prove anything conclusive.





I know Professor,but at the end of the day these statistics gain currency by behaviour thats directly attributable to them.


----------



## Rafa (20 July 2006)

From the Australian...



> Australian community worker Joumana Elmatrah said her family in southern Lebanon was too frightened to leave home.
> 
> Ms Elmatrah said they had no water or electricity and had run out of food, while one relative was due to give birth soon and had a history of difficult pregnancies.
> 
> ...




It looks like Israel is hell bent on creating more terrorist... I can't see how the current action is doing anything other than weaken Israels position...

Either bloody attack the main culprits, Syria and Iran, or STOP!!!
Mindlessly attacking Lebanon is only making Syria and Iran stronger, and weakening the clout of the anti-Hezbulla govt in Lebanon...


WHAT A JOKE!!!!


It looks like ISRAEL (like the US with IRAQ) are not interested in solving problems, rather creating more!


----------



## rub92me (20 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> I know Professor,but at the end of the day these statistics gain currency by behaviour thats directly attributable to them.



Wrong again. Statistics are just statistics. They don't gain currency by adding your subjective opinion of cause to them.


----------



## visual (20 July 2006)

rub92me said:
			
		

> Wrong again. Statistics are just statistics. They don't gain currency by adding your subjective opinion of cause to them.




and this is your opinion! ok. then enough said


----------



## rub92me (20 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> and this is your opinion! ok. then enough said



Ok, let me give you an analogy. Look at the following two statistics based on a study I performed:
1) 98% of cows eat grass 
2) 1 % of dogs eat grass
According to the visual school of thought this means two things: 1) the behaviour of cows gains currency to the fact they are statistically bigger grass eaters. 2) cows are better than dogs.


----------



## visual (20 July 2006)

rub92me said:
			
		

> Ok, let me give you an analogy. Look at the following two statistics based on a study I performed:
> 1) 98% of cows eat grass
> 2) 1 % of dogs eat grass
> According to the visual school of thought this means two things: 1) the behaviour of cows gains currency to the fact they are statistically bigger grass eaters. 2) cows are better than dogs.




oh please ,you are off topic.
Just a suggestion,stop before everyone else starts complaining.


----------



## carmo (20 July 2006)

I have just read the posts, it appears we have our "own middle east" here.
It annoys me when people are deemed "racist" because they do not agree with the elements of the culture of a paticular group.


----------



## sam76 (20 July 2006)

carmo said:
			
		

> I have just read the posts, it appears we have our "own middle east" here.
> It annoys me when people are deemed "racist" because they do not agree with the elements of the culture of a paticular group.




it seems racism is a term coined by white folk who want to seem pc.

I went on a date with a Singaporean woman (living in Melb for last 15 years)2 weeks ago who said in the course of the evening that she had no allegiance to Australia or Australians.

Does that mean she's racist?

postscript: I'm not seeing her anymore.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2006)

sam76 said:
			
		

> it seems racism is a term coined by white folk who want to seem pc.
> 
> I went on a date with a Singaporean woman (living in Melb for last 15 years)2 weeks ago who said in the course of the evening that she had no allegiance to Australia or Australians.
> 
> ...




It seems people get confused between Nationalism and Racism.

Australian is a nationality not a race.

Just a Socratic question: Why should anyone have an alliegance to Australia? (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, just examining the reasons)


----------



## Rafa (20 July 2006)

Got no problem with Racism.... most people are racists.... its in our genetic makeup.... whoopdidooo!

However, when peoples prejudices and generalisations impact on a discussion on WWIII it does make for rather a dull, over-simplified debate


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Got no problem with Racism.... most people are racists.... its in our genetic makeup.... whoopdidooo!
> 
> However, when peoples prejudices and generalisations impact on a discussion on WWIII it does make for rather a dull, over-simplified debate




Rafa,

Perhaps you add something of substance then; to bring the thread back on topic?

Cheers


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> It seems people get confused between Nationalism and Racism.
> 
> Australian is a nationality not a race.
> 
> Just a Socratic question: Why should anyone have an alliegance to Australia? (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, just examining the reasons)




I beleive in a hundred years or so Australia will be a lot like Brazil in its varied makeup and then we will all have a collective identity where racism is outlawed and the citizenry(legal, not illegal) will have an allegence to Australia the republic. The republic issue will speed this up I feel.


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> It seems people get confused between Nationalism and Racism.
> 
> Australian is a nationality not a race.
> 
> Just a Socratic question: Why should anyone have an alliegance to Australia? (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, just examining the reasons)




Wayne,personally I think Australians should have an allegiance to Australia because this is where we live.Perfect example,the people stuck in Lebanon,who else is meant to rescue them if not Australia,in return you then should do the same if its required of you.

This idea that we are considered something else even if born in Australia is not only ignorant,its also very dangerous.
Interestingly havent noticed any Lebanese screaming that really they are  Lebanese not skips.(during the cronulla riots we certainly were inundated with that idea)All of a sudden they`ve realised that Australia is where they live and only Australia can get them out.So yes Australians should first have allegiance to Australia.


Of course it isnt just the Lebanese who hold this view,before anyone thinks I have in for them.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Wayne,personally I think Australians should have an allegiance to Australia because this is where we live.Perfect example,the people stuck in Lebanon,who else is meant to rescue them if not Australia,in return you then should do the same if its required of you.
> 
> This idea that we are considered something else even if born in Australia is not only ignorant,its also very dangerous.
> Interestingly havent noticed any Lebanese screaming that really they are  Lebanese not skips.(during the cronulla riots we certainly were inundated with that idea)All of a sudden they`ve realised that Australia is where they live and only Australia can get them out.So yes Australians should first have allegiance to Australia.
> ...




But what if our country (let's leave out the fact we live in Oz, this is just an example) starts a genocide of a particular race? What if our country is taken over by coup and becomes a military dictatorship? Should the Germans have had an alliegence to their country in the late 30's or early 40's. Should the Italians have done the same during the same period? Should white Zimbaweans swear alliegence to their country?

Is it the government we swear alliegence to, the land, the people? Should the government swear alliegence to it's people?

Just questions...


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> But what if our country (let's leave out the fact we live in Oz, this is just an example) starts a genocide of a particular race? What if our country is taken over by coup and becomes a military dictatorship? Should the Germans have had an alliegence to their country in the late 30's or early 40's. Should the Italians have done the same during the same period? Should white Zimbaweans swear alliegence to their country?
> 
> Is it the government we swear alliegence to, the land, the people? Should the government swear alliegence to it's people?
> 
> Just questions...




Yes but generally countries have constitutions,so in effect should the situation you are referring to happens they will be going against the constitution,so under that circumstance you then have a legitimate reason for resistance.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Yes but generally countries have constitutions,so in effect should the situation you are referring to happens they will be going against the constitution,so under that circumstance you then have a legitimate reason for resistance.




So The USA citizens should be resisting their government? Theirs seem to have been disregarded recently.


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> So The USA citizens should be resisting their government? Theirs seem to have been disregarded recently.




Which part?quote please.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

Here is just one instance

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/23279res20051229.html


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

Here is another instance where the government is arguing on purely technical grounds. Clearly, the spirit of the constitution has been broken.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6889654/


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

Ok,but wouldnt you say that in this instance,the media is acting as a resistance force? By informing the people,who can then decide if the people who represent them are reelected or not.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Ok,but wouldnt you say that in this instance ,the media is acting as a resistance force?by informing the people ,who can then decide if the people who represent them are reelected or not.




Exactly. But the people should be pro-active. Often allegience is construed as alliegence to a government.

Stuff the government, They should have alliegence to the people. It's all @rse about at the moment. This has been due to propaganda... we should all learn to be more discerning and "keep the bastards honest" as Don Chip used to say.


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Here is another instance where the government is arguing on purely technical grounds. Clearly, the spirit of the constitution has been broken.
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6889654/



But here you then have various interpretations of the same right!And all are free to exercise their right under the law.
So once again people are being kept informed and free to decide who they will side with.


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Exactly. But the people should be pro-active. Often allegience is construed as alliegence to a government.
> 
> Stuff the government, They should have alliegence to the people. It's all @rse about at the moment. This has been due to propaganda... we should all learn to be more discerning and "keep the bastards honest" as Don Chip used to say.




You see thought this is the beauty of freedom,you say propoganda,but with a free media both sides of the story can be brought out,and after all the government represents the people so in effect the government is showing allegiance to the wishes of the majority.


As for the Australian democrats,please,that cow,said she would never agree to the GST.Didnt take long to fold into Johnnys charm did it.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> But here you then have various interpretations of the same right!And all are free to exercise their right under the law.
> So once again people are being kept informed and free to decide who they will side with.




Interesting view! But you are entitled to it. : 

Cheers


----------



## Rafa (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Rafa,
> 
> Perhaps you add something of substance then; to bring the thread back on topic?
> 
> Cheers




I have added plenty on this thread if you care to read it...
I've tried to say that this is more than just a clash of cultures, races, religions, muslim vs jews, but a clash of tribes and sects fighting century old battles...

But no one seems to interested in responding to that...
Rather, seem to be focussed on one comment made by Visual that some of you have deemed racist...

Far out... this is Political Correctness gone to far...

And this is what happens when it does.... WWIII.... because no one is interested in tackling the real cause of WWIII, rather are more interested in points scoring and calling people racists...!!!

Most of us are racisits... I saw a documentary the other day on one of countries neighbouring Zimbabwe... (can't remember the name)... They were calling the Zimbabwean refugees (blacks) all sorts of names, etc, and complaining they were coming in to take their jobs, and should go back home!!!

To me they all looked the same... (whoops, is that racist) yet these people knew who was Zimbabwean and who wasn't and were clearly against the Zimbabwean race...

We should be more focussed on the root cause of the problem rather than focus on these minor issues like racism which is part and parcel of humanity!


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2006)

> Far out... this is Political Correctness gone to far...




Yes. Most Australians are infected I`m afraid. It what is taught to them at Uni etc.



> Most of us are racisits... I saw a documentary the other day on one of countries neighbouring Zimbabwe... (can't remember the name)... They were calling the Zimbabwean refugees (blacks) all sorts of names, etc, and complaining they were coming in to take their jobs, and should go back home!!!




Which is why multiculturism doesnt work. Monoculturism works if the various races unite as one showing the same values etc. But, Africa and Australia are very different beyond comparison.

For some info on Israel:
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html

(Watch the animations at the bottom)

Snake


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Yes. Most Australians are infected I`m afraid. It what is taught to them at Uni etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Haha   our settings wont allow me to access that sight,intolerance.See everyone even my computer knows I`m not racist. :


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Haha   our settings wont allow me to access that sight,intolerance.See everyone even my computer knows I`m not racist. :




Your PC must be PC


----------



## kgee (21 July 2006)

Of course multiculturism works...ok there might be the odd hiccup but there's been people of different ethnic groups living side by side with generally positive outcomes for years.
I do agree that were racist it's hard not to be....I use to live in the states and my girlfriend (Jewish by the way)lived on the border of Oakland which has an 80% black population...everytime i caught the train to her place I always wore my runners cause i figured if any group of black men approached me I'd just run....but statistically I probably had just as much chance of getting mugged in the non black neighbourhoods


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

I am hearing rumours that Israel is dropping gas bombs.

These are *unsubstantiated* and could be misinformation or propaganda.

Anyone hearing anything on this?


----------



## the_godfather4 (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I am hearing rumours that Israel is dropping gas bombs.
> 
> These are *unsubstantiated* and could be misinformation or propaganda.
> 
> Anyone hearing anything on this?




Heard several similar rumours....but I figured I would wait until I could confirm for sure before posting.....watch this space........(would not surprise me though)


----------



## visual (21 July 2006)

Gas boms ,ok!!!!! where did you guys hear that?sorry,but I would think that highly unlikely.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I am hearing rumours that Israel is dropping gas bombs.
> 
> These are *unsubstantiated* and could be misinformation or propaganda.
> 
> Anyone hearing anything on this?





If you are hearing rumours, what is your source?
They may be fact.


----------



## the_godfather4 (21 July 2006)

At the moment there are reports on LBC and the ART networks (both Arab based).....they will tend to be more biased towards the Arab side just as CNN, BBC, NBC etc etc etc are Western/Jewish biased......

I like to comment on FACT and research so I am not willing to condemn until there is concrete evidence......

But like I said, It would certainly not surprise me.....just as the US used chemical warfare in the first Gulf War (which they still deny  ) , why would Israel hold back........ they certainly have confirmed stockpiles of the stuff.......


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> If you are hearing rumours, what is your source?
> They may be fact.




I was speaking to some friends in the UK who say they have seen reports.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I was speaking to some friends in the UK who say they have seen reports.




Thanks WL


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (22 July 2006)

Some reading:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/israelstorm.html <<==Warning - Very Graphic!

The content is a bit scarry.


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2006)

Some Middle East Links to follow the war.

Pro Israel - www.debka.com

Pro Arab - www.aljazeera.com

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2006)

Oh %&$#

If this is true we're all toast:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/39264/



> Evangelical leader pushing 'End Times' war with Iran
> 
> And it seems that some mainstream Repubs are listening …
> 
> ...


----------



## the_godfather4 (22 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I am hearing rumours that Israel is dropping gas bombs.
> 
> These are *unsubstantiated* and could be misinformation or propaganda.
> 
> Anyone hearing anything on this?




Check this out........

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0607202926164827.htm


----------



## the_godfather4 (22 July 2006)

the_godfather4 said:
			
		

> Check this out........
> 
> http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0607202926164827.htm





And for those who feel that previous link is too Arab biased, here is one from our Canadian friends......

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060721&articleId=2788

We will never get a balanced view in our media otherwise the US may not let us play with her anymore


----------



## the_godfather4 (22 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> For some info on Israel:
> http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html
> 
> (Watch the animations at the bottom)
> ...




Hey Snake, just to keep the biased a little more balanced, here is a bit more info on what they really think of the Goyim.......  

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/goyim.htm


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (22 July 2006)

the_godfather4 said:
			
		

> Hey Snake, just to keep the biased a little more balanced, here is a bit more info on what they really think of the Goyim.......
> 
> http://library.flawlesslogic.com/goyim.htm





Not being biased. Just sharing what I find. If you want to percieve that as being biased, be my guest.  

Most of those links hasd stories written by arabs. That one site link I posted was written by an Indian and I am biased


----------



## Rafa (23 July 2006)

Anyone see the documentary on SBS tonight, on the History of Israel, both actual (based on archaeology/history) and the bible...


Its a 4 part series, so 3 more to come...


Anyway, this first part looked at 12th - 7th century BC...


Regardless, in the 7th century BC, Israel was actually two kingdoms, Israel and Judah (capital Jerusalem)... To the north east of Israel was the vast superpower of Assyria.... to the south west of Judah was the other superpower Egypt...

Israel was invaded by the Assyrian Empire, and most of the Israelites fled into Judah, doubling its population instantly.... Judah negotiated with Assyria and became a vassal state... But the negotiations meant the people of Judah (including the Israelite refugees) flourished, as Judah was the main avenue of trade in the region...

Eventually, the Assyrian power began to wane, with them being distracted in Babylon, leaving Judah thinking about gaining independence as well as regaining the territory of Israel... However, Egypt was sniffing around too...

Anyway... around the same time, the king of Judah at the time, discovered at the temple in Jerusalem the book of Deuteronomy, as well as solidified the Laws of Moses... and made Jerusalem the only place to worship Yahweh...

The documentary hypothesises that the story of Exodus, the Ten Commandments and the Book of Deuteronomy were first converted to the RULE OF LAW in the 6th Century BC to unify the people of Judah and strengthen their resolve to resist the Egyptians and take back Israel.... Apparently that was the birth of Judaism...

Interestingly, archaeological digs in the path around Mt Sinai uncovered no actual proof of human wandering ... as described in the Exodus story (escape from Egypt)... and said it was highly unlikely that 2 million Jews escaped from Egypt…. However, telling the story and enshrining it into the psyche of the people of Judah meant that they knew that as long as they followed GODS LAW as per the 10 Commandments and the Book of Deuteronomy, GOD would not forsake them and they can resist the Egyptians and take back Israel…


----------



## the_godfather4 (23 July 2006)

Hey Rafa, I saw it......interesting topics brought up......u will find that most of the stories in our Bible are actually plaguerised from ancient Egyptian stories......i have studied ancient Egypt at depth and the similarities are striking if not disturbing.....and most Egyptian stories were written well over 2000 years ago.......


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## Rafa (24 July 2006)

well, apparently the story of exodus is set in 13th century BC.... 3300 years ago... so i can see why its hard to find hard evidence....

i can see why its similar to egyptian stories, becuase assuming the Jews came from Egypt... their background and popular fables and legends would be similar...

i've always wanted to know when organised, structured Judaism really formed and how... so far from the documentary is looking like 6th century BC or 2600 years ago... 


the documentary was really interesting, and it does show that Israel and Judah did exist, and were in the centre of a power struggle between the Asyrians and the Egyptians... over 2600 years ago.... AMAZING STUFF

That was before islam, christianity and as far as i can tell judaism existed...

I know people like blaming God and Religion for a lot of the problems in the world today...  This documentary shows that looking at it simply in religious terms, leads you to are miss a lot of the story...


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## visual (24 July 2006)

gee, so in other words these people sure know how to carry a grudge!


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## wayneL (24 July 2006)

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ted_Koppel_United_States_already_at_0722.html



> The United States is already at war with Iran; but for the time being the battle is being fought through surrogates," begins a New York Times Op-Ed written by former ABC Nightline host Ted Koppel.
> 
> Excerpts from the Op-Ed:
> #
> ...


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## Rafa (24 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> gee, so in other words these people sure know how to carry a grudge!





you got that right...

this ain't going to end... regardless of what peace loving lefties or war mongering righties (even with nukes  ) might like to think....  

Historically, Israel lied at the confluence of the great ancients empires.... Egypt, Asyria, Greeks, Romans, Mesopotamia, Persia, Ottoman...

Nowadays, Israel is the West's only foothold in a region of vital importance to western economies... thanks to OIL!


There is another factor that seems to be left out.... the policy of Divide and Rule...


I beleive its the over 150 years of British / Western policy of Divide and Rule... (one of the instigators of Islamic fundamentalism...) that is now coming home to roost... 


eg. Hindus and Muslims lived peacefully in India for many many centuries... After the uprising in 1870's when India tried to force Britian out... the British adopted the policy of Divide and Rule.... Get the Hindu's and Muslims fighting amongst themselves, and we will continue to rule... So they backed and covertly supported extremist attitudes... 

This same policy was applied to most of Britains colonies... Arabia being one of them... 

The remnants of this policy will continue to be felt for quite a while... except now, thanks to technology and transportation, the side effects can be felt a lot closer to home...


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## visual (24 July 2006)

actually I`ve read that before about the British,they seemed to always use what ever they could and live the mess behind,you may have a point,Ok,then lets blame the bloody poms.

They also liked to redraw borders,apparently at the time that Rwanda went up in murder that was one of the contributing facts.


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## Rafa (24 July 2006)

Yes, i agree.... blame the POMS!!! HAHA

You are spot on about artificial borders.... seemed to be a big fad in the early 19th century... Just look at the map of europe now... !


But back to WWIII... 

I am now certain of the following facts...

1. The kindom of Israel/Judah existed well before the 7th Century BC... and for the first time a single religion and GOD was used to unite and rule the people... Judaism was born...
2. Historically, for some reason, everyone wanted a peice of that land!
3. Religious fundmantalism became more mainstrems in the early 19th century, thanks to the British policy of divide and rule... 
4. The Islamic fundamentalist seemed to have really gotten carried away, perhaps because of percieved injustices, perhaps because of ideas of re-building ancient empires, certainly now possible thanks to the great wealth we have bestowed on them thanks to our dependance on OIL!


Unfortunately, thats all I am certain about... the rest is all smoke and mirrors....!!!


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## visual (24 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> 4. The Islamic fundamentalist seemed to have really gotten carried away, perhaps because of percieved injustices, perhaps because of ideas of re-building ancient empires, certainly now possible thanks to the great wealth we have bestowed on them thanks to our dependance on OIL!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, thats all I am certain about... the rest is all smoke and mirrors....!!!




we may have bestowed great wealth,but they have turned out to be bad managers,the west went forward in leaps and bounds  because of oil,they moved oh so slowly forward ,creating poverty along the way,and obscenely rich individuals.

Should the west lessen its reliance on oil,they`ll have nothing to show for all the oil they sold.After all to buy more weapons they will need more money,
no oil sales presumably will mean a lesser ability to pay.After all seeing that oil is running out,how long will it be before an alternate fuel can be used ? All this is doing presumably is convincing the powers that be that they need to move a little faster.


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## Rafa (25 July 2006)

hehe... found this comment on a blog...

Sir Humphrey Appleby (From Yes Minister) made the telling point once that Britain's glorious record of partition had been splendidly successful in places such as Palestine, Cyprus, India and Northern Ireland. Surely, it had led to vicious infighting on a few occasions, such as those in Palestine, Cyprus, India and Northern Ireland, but at least it was better than having those chaps fighting against Britain!


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## wayneL (26 July 2006)

I'm stunned... an admission from an Israeli professor -

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742257.html



> Morality is not on our side
> By Ze'ev Maoz
> 
> There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards..........


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## Rafa (26 July 2006)

i posted this on another thread on Is it the Govt's fault...
more relevant here...

Yes... I think they are slowly loosing the moral highground...
---------------

I think we all know that the real villians in the peace are Iran / Syria...

If Israel were serious about securing their long term future, those are the countries that need to be tackled... and I am sure, they would have had the backing of most of the world, including the rest of the Arab states, to do that... 

Israels activities in lebanon, including the red cross convoy bombing, now the UN watchpost bombing... means they are not doing themselves any favours!

Same like George Bush and the US.... the had all the support they could possibly want to rout out Al Quaeda.... But no, they go and attack IRAQ to install a democracy... All that has achieved is make Iran more powerfull...!

IDIOTS!!!

Maybe the US and Israel have a grand plan that will free the world of radicals.... maybe.... i certainly hope they do.... but at this point of time, i don't see it...


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## wayneL (5 October 2021)

Sabres rattling over Taiwan. Seems more serious this time.

What's y'alls thoughts?


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## Ferret (5 October 2021)

To my mind, Taiwan is the most likely flash point for WW3.

China's CCP have set 2049 as the date by which it must be back under their wing.  100 years after Taiwan became politically separated from the mainland.

I don't think China will back down from this significant date and I don't think the US and others will look away if China acts with force.  

Nervous times as 2049 approaches.


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## basilio (5 October 2021)

Ferret said:


> To my mind, Taiwan is the most likely flash point for WW3.
> 
> China's CCP have set 2049 as the date by which it must be back under their wing.  100 years after Taiwan became politically separated from the mainland.
> 
> ...



If we get to 2049 that will be great ! Realistically China sees re unification as a near term objective. Some sobering analysis byStan Grant on China's objectives and strategies.









						Taiwan asks Australia for help to prepare for war with China
					

Joseph Wu urges Australia to increase intelligence sharing and security cooperation with Taiwan and says the island is ready to defend itself if China launches a strike.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						If China attacks Taiwan, it could spell war
					

Xi Jinping may gamble that America would not spill any blood for Taiwan. Stan Grant asks: What happens next?




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (5 October 2021)

The best thing the USA could do is pop a few bases into Taiwan as a deterrent. One attack on the US bases would give an excuse to nuke the Chinese and as the US has a superiority in nuclear arms I think China would back off.


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## PZ99 (5 October 2021)

Cuban cigar anyone ?


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## StockyGuy (5 October 2021)

I can only imagine the profound lifelong stress for average citizens of Taiwan, South Korea and Japan (put in descending order of stress, perhaps).


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## moXJO (6 October 2021)

China will decide if the Democrats have the stones for war(they don't). They will make a move well before 2049. Xi seems impatient.


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