# Where is/can Donald Trump take US (sic)?



## basilio

People, the media, other politicians keep talking of Donald Trump as a trainwreck.  An ever cascading litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches.

But perhaps its really a train ride with The Trump firmly sitting  up front as the Republican preferred candidate despite* or because of the  "litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches."*

So where could this train ride take the US and us (the rest of the world) ?

Some background to his body of work and the current response from other politicians

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-anti-muslim-ban-world-reacts
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...p-muslim-ban-backlash-jeb-bush-chris-christie
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/republicans-donald-trump-muslims-election-2016

There is also one excellent psychological observation of how well Donald Trump works his audience.


> How does Trump do it? Understanding the psychology of a demagogue's rally
> 
> His popularity continues to befuddle many. But attend one of his rallies and it begins to make sense: make them laugh, then draw them into your world where danger lurks around every corner and you’re the only one smart enough to stop it
> 
> 
> Wednesday 9 December 2015 03.14 AEDT
> 
> The thing that is hard to appreciate about Donald Trump before you personally enter a room with him – in this case, the hangar deck of a wartime aircraft carrier – is that his first weapon is humor. Long before he fires up his loyal supporters, before he hits them with outrageous comments that send shockwaves around the world, he makes them laugh.
> 
> He looks like the man he is: a real estate developer with dodgy hair. But don’t underestimate the guy – he has the intuition and timing of a standup comedian.



http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-rally-psychology-humor-fear


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## CanOz

All I can say is the USA has voters stupid enough to vote for gwb, of course they're stupid enough to vote for trump!


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## bellenuit

Interesting perspective and with some merit (although I would suggest that it only applies to some on the left, not all).

*The left is to blame for the creation of Donald Trump*

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/20...mp/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## Gringotts Bank

His popularity comes from two sources:

- *Certainty*.  Most people love certainty.  The more fear in the society, the more certainty they seek in a leader.  He's the sort of guy that will actually deliver what you ordered, and on time.
- *Congruence*.  Unlike any other politician, he actually says what he is thinking.  Whereas most pollies go to great lengths to hide their *real *thoughts, he is actually honest.  

Both these are brilliant qualities, however, he is extreme in his views and there's a lot of distrust and hatred in the way he speaks.  That can't lead anywhere good.  So I hope he doesn't get in.


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## Knobby22

bellenuit said:


> Interesting perspective and with some merit (although I would suggest that it only applies to some on the left, not all).
> 
> *The left is to blame for the creation of Donald Trump*
> 
> http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/20...mp/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter




As long as the right doesn't have to take any of the blame. LOL
The Specatator makes me laugh.


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## SirRumpole

Well he's not going to appeal to black voters, liberals or women so that's a lot of votes gone.

The only people who really like him are the Tea Party types and I can't believe that they are a majority of the electorate.


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## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Interesting perspective and with some merit (although I would suggest that it only applies to some on the left, not all).
> 
> *The left is to blame for the creation of Donald Trump*
> 
> http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/20...mp/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter




Yea... I laugh out loud with Knobby too.

A bit rich to criticise people for stoking anti-Semitic racism, and in literally the same line criticise "the left" for not just come out and say Islam is the problem. It's wrong to be racist against Jewish people... it's just common decency and honesty to be racist against Muslims.

It can't be just me a few other commies who think that when mass shooting happen, and it all involve guns... maybe gun is one of the common denominators; that and easy access to guns.

Or when terrorists blow people up, if it's our people they kill then obviously it's their crazy religion that's to blame. Nothing to do with us and our allies waging wars on them, their country or their people.

Must be something wrong with Islam and Arabs for not liking foreign powers having boots on their land kicking azz and taking names.


We all want peaceful resolution to these wars and terrorism, we better come up with more realistic solutions. One that preferably doesn't include building concentration camps and intern a whole people because they look and sound like a duck.


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## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Well he's not going to appeal to black voters, liberals or women so that's a lot of votes gone.
> 
> The only people who really like him are the Tea Party types and I can't believe that they are a majority of the electorate.




True. I'm surprised he's still around.

Maybe the media just want the guy around to keep up the ratings. That and hush aside real debates on real issues. issues like where are the jobs, where's my lunch, where's by bridge that doesn't fall apart?


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## SirRumpole

> Or when terrorists blow people up, if it's our people they kill then obviously it's their crazy religion that's to blame. Nothing to do with us and our allies waging wars on them, their country or their people.




Only the bad bits of it. The rest is collateral damage.

OK, so maybe we could get of of Iraq/Syria and let ISIL take over. 

Would the general population be better served by ISIL than by some shambling form of democracy that we would probably set up, with a Constitution, courts, free press and democratic elections ?

Honesty luutzu, which would you prefer ?


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## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Only the bad bits of it. The rest is collateral damage.
> 
> OK, so maybe we could get of of Iraq/Syria and let ISIL take over.
> 
> Would the general population be better served by ISIL than by some shambling form of democracy that we would probably set up, with a Constitution, courts, free press and democratic elections ?
> 
> Honesty luutzu, which would you prefer ?




I'd prefer we leave other countries alone. It's not our fight. We just went along with uncle sam.. and Uncle Sam and Mother Britain kinda gave birth to ISIS didn't they?

US first Governor to Iraq - Bremer - created 2 million Iraqi enemies the second day he and the US took over. Did it by declaring all Baath party members to be criminals. So all the generals, the military officers, the soldiers, the public servants running utilities etc... they're all out of a job.

If you got guns, know how to use it, and now can't use it to put food on the table to feed your family... what would you do? You start a movement to bring back Allah and glory to the Iraqi people that's what you do.



From what I know, there's no democracy or courts or free press in Iraq. We, the West, didn't go in there to build up their country and bring peace and glory to their people. We went in, as all "great" powers went in to any country, and take their stuff. We set up courts and laws and constitutions and voting machines.... it's all for show. The Iraqi people probably know that all too well.

There's these Green Zones, there's the security perimeters around Iraqi oil and gas resources... and outside of those areas they can go at each other for all we care. That's what's happening there.

In Afghanistan, some interviewer I heard a few days ago said some 60% of Afghan children are malnourished due to our liberating them from the Taliban. The entire country is broken, and the drug lords, the warlords are popping up all over the place. Some of them work with ISIS too.

----

We, the West, have the most powerful military in the world. Australia is surrounded by sea, the US got a couple on either side. Yet we're told that if we don't fight them there they'll get us here.

So we bomb them first. Then when a few of their "brothers", for some personal reasons or a combination of political and personal reasons goes nuts and kill our innocent people... our politician uses that, link their war to our tragedy and go kill more people.

And we let them.


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## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Y
> 
> It can't be just me a few other commies who think that when mass shooting happen, and it all involve guns... maybe gun is one of the common denominators; that and easy access to guns.
> 
> .




Guns don't kill people, bullets do. So it's Newton's fault he invented his three laws without any regard to others.


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## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Guns don't kill people, bullets do. So it's Newton's fault he invented his three laws without any regard to others.




Still can't blame Newton though. One of his law did state that an object remains stationary until another force is acted upon it. Maybe the finger that pull the trigger that click the hammer that fire the powder that etc...?

Maybe they ought to take Chris Rock's solution seriously and sell all the guns they want, just charge a high price for each bullet?


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## basilio

I have the disturbing thought that Donald Trump is only one or two American terrorist outrages away from the  White House.

How ? It seems that as any  terrorist incident occurs the  knee jerk right wing response is to attack anyone who is Muslim. Trump personifies this approach. I fear that more terrorist attacks could further drive America to see the aggression and certainty of  Donald Trump as  acceptable. 

So If I was ISIS and I wanted to spark a full fledged war  which created hatred against all Muslims and forced them to respond then goading America and effectively pushing Trump into the White House would be a canny move...

But back to my opening question.

*If Trump did become President what do people think the consequences could be in America and around the  world ?*


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## Gringotts Bank

Gringotts Bank said:


> there's a lot of distrust and hatred in the way he speaks.




Like me on some days.  Although my xenophobia is fairly specific.  Given that tendency, I wouldn't put myself up for nomination.   artyman:


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## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> *If Trump did become President what do people think the consequences could be in America and around the  world ?*




Potential rise of black power movement, much more militarisation of police forces and probably more black shootings leading potentially to a civil war, probable decline in living standards of the poor and middle class as companies use Trump's support to ratchet down wages and conditions coupled with tax cuts for the rich and cuts in public services leading to a loss of consumer confidence and possibly a recession, possible military confrontation with Russia and China and a general feeling of discomfort by most US residents who are not comfortably well off.

But I doubt it will happen, I think Hilary will win.


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## luutzu

basilio said:


> I have the disturbing thought that Donald Trump is only one or two American terrorist outrages away from the  White House.
> 
> How ? It seems that as any  terrorist incident occurs the  knee jerk right wing response is to attack anyone who is Muslim. Trump personifies this approach. I fear that more terrorist attacks could further drive America to see the aggression and certainty of  Donald Trump as  acceptable.
> 
> So If I was ISIS and I wanted to spark a full fledged war  which created hatred against all Muslims and forced them to respond then goading America and effectively pushing Trump into the White House would be a canny move...
> 
> But back to my opening question.
> 
> *If Trump did become President what do people think the consequences could be in America and around the  world ?*




That is disturbing, and them terrorists are probably thinking and planning something like it too.

But while I'm guessing that a president has the power to change the world, all president will ultimately serve the elite and large corporations anyway.

The only difference between the elite powers in our democratic West and those third world dictators and autocrats is information are open and the law and court does protect peaceful activism. So if the people organise a movement, they can scare the heck out of these concentrated centre of power and maybe some good will come of it.

Otherwise, presidential advisors, think tanks and all the intellectuals will make very convincing case to law makers; and behind the "intellectual" reasoning and propaganda lies big wads of cash waiting for good big and little politicians and bureaucrats  who say and do the right thing.

As Chris Hedges points out, Nixon was the last Liberal US president. He passed the clean air act, set up the environmental protection agency; there were a bunch of social programme and social security measures passed in the 50s and 60s. Those didn't happen because some great and noble president thought it's a nice thing to do - it's done because people demanded it.

So take Bill Clinton... Wall St didn't like him. He want them and their money to like him. So he got a couple of their CEOs to be Treasury Secretary, got their favourite oracle to be in the Feds, passed a bunch of laws that recommend deregulation of derivatives and other new financial innovations... and to top it off, take on to the federal level the 3 strike rules and double or triple rates of imprisonment for minor drug offences. Also help too that Clinton also permit the privatisation of prisons.

Same with Obama. Soon after the GFC and he saw how Wall St CEO got bailed out but didn't use the cash to lend to small busineses but lend it back to the gov't at a nice profit, then giving themselves multimillion dollar bonuses... He was saying how Wall St is nasty, those greedy CEO should be looked into... then he received the message from those CEO and within a day or two say they aren't so bad.


Maybe Trump would be good in that he won't listen to anyone but his own ego. Problem is his ego is probably worst than anything Wall St or the military industrial complex could come up with.


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## basilio

My darker fears are that ISIS could strategically decided to create further terrorist acts to goad americans into supporting Trump at an election.

Trump gets in and almost immediately establishes a State Of Emergency as a response to the threat of Islam.(not even terrorism..) The response from the Muslim community is "not good" .

Internationally the European community lurches to the right as further terrorism begins in response to Americas action. 

Unfortunately the world economy crashes as terrorist activity paralyses economies.  It really wouldn't take much to  cause modern states to slow down if there was repeated random terrorist activities.  And by now the Muslim communities are under so much suspicion it creates its own consequences. 

ISIS wins.  We have a polarised world community and world wide asymmetrical warfare.

______________________________________________________________________

_*If that is a plausible scenario if Donald Trump is allowed to continue with his policies what should be the response  of other current political leaders ?  (Republician, Democrat and others ?)*_ 

How reasonable  is it to openly discuss these possibilities ?  

Would/should a government declare a State of Emergency before Trump gained power and then effectively silence him as part of a program of stabilising the situation ?


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## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Potential rise of black power movement, much more militarisation of police forces and probably more black shootings leading potentially to a civil war, probable decline in living standards of the poor and middle class as companies use Trump's support to ratchet down wages and conditions coupled with tax cuts for the rich and cuts in public services leading to a loss of consumer confidence and possibly a recession, possible military confrontation with Russia and China and a general feeling of discomfort by most US residents who are not comfortably well off.
> 
> But I doubt it will happen, I think Hilary will win.




Maybe Hilary will win. But I heard Chomsky said she's more hawkish than Bush and Obama. Scary or what? So Bush capture and torture terror suspect; Obama save interrogators trouble by droning them instead. What would Clinton do? I remember her not liking Iran too much and wouldn't mind taking it off the map. Seriously. some 80 million people and she'd go poof on their behind to prove how tough she is.

She's already in the pocket of big business. Had made a couple videos telling the Yanks she runs for poor people like her Mum, fighting for the little guys and all that.

Maybe Jeb Bush would be a good choice (did I just say that?). He seem smarter than big brother W, and while still a politician he actually feel embarass saying stuff like "we ought to only take in Christian refugees".

I think I'll save up and move to Orange and start farming soon.


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## qldfrog

basilio said:


> Would/should a government declare a State of Emergency before Trump gained power and then effectively silence him as part of a program of stabilising the situation ?



Amazing how the left is actually so frightened by democracy, and I assume it would be for the own good of the nation, as per Stalin or God forbid me to use this parallel, Hitler in the 1930s.
I govern, I know better;
Take some refugees, I know, they are good, look at the Vietnamese and the Italians in the pasts, these nice muslims will be the same.
This is good for the economy:you pay more taxes for their welfare, my mates will make profits from their nappies purchasing
The tea party in the US and the coming backlash in Europe are a direct result of the unability of politicians both right and left to be aware of what life is
Middle class and hope is disappearing, brain washing is the key function of so called education, an orwellian world but the populace is fed day in, day out garbage by the new royalty: corrupt politicians feeding like leeches on the taxpayers.
As a result, you end up with extremes like these buffons.So what is better, a full scale revolution, some of these buffons taking power and kicking the antnest, or worse a win of the apathy and "1984" a reality 40 years later?
Could DT in power be a trigger to a resurgence of real democraty and people powers?
He for one may not need to please the lobbies, in any case, with the senate so corrupt in the US, what could he do?
Do you remember listening to Obama speeches during his first campaigns?And now, what are the end results?
So would you vote for Clinton now?
A mandatory heathcare system a la medicare with mandatory private heath cover as in Oz turning the US into another failed welfare european state, a military lobby in power..I for one would appreciate the US to first take care of itself before spreading war all over the world.
DT could actually be our best chance to avoid a US vs Russia/China war whatever form it will take, as for war with Islam, it started well before him or even the Bush(s).
Sleep well Basilio, in my opinion, the danger is not him taking power, it is him NOT taking power.Think about it that way too


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## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> Amazing how the left is actually so frightened by democracy, and I assume it would be for the own good of the nation, as per Stalin or God forbid me to use this parallel, Hitler in the 1930s.
> I govern, I know better;...
> Could DT in power be a trigger to a resurgence of real democraty and people powers?
> He for one may not need to please the lobbies, in any case, with the senate so corrupt in the US, what could he do?
> Do you remember listening to Obama speeches during his first campaigns?And now, what are the end results?
> So would you vote for Clinton now?
> A mandatory heathcare system a la medicare with mandatory private heath cover as in Oz turning the US into another failed welfare european state, a military lobby in power..I for one would appreciate the US to first take care of itself before spreading war all over the world.
> DT could actually be our best chance to avoid a US vs Russia/China war whatever form it will take, as for war with Islam, it started well before him or even the Bush(s).
> Sleep well Basilio, in my opinion, the danger is not him taking power, it is him NOT taking power.Think about it that way too




The Left is not Stalin's Soviet nor are they Hitler's National Socialist party. Those parties claims to be Socialist but they are not.

The kind of socialism the Left, I am assuming, want is the kind of policies that actually made Western democracies the kind of place people the world over love. It made possible the lore of poor kids making it in the world through hardwork and studies etc.; it demand that the poor and the sick should be cared for by the state; it demand safe and fair work practices etc. etc.

These fundamental changes since WW2 have and are being systematically dismantled - it's happening right now as we speak. ANd it's not being done in by refugees or Muslims or the poor - it's being done in by the rich and the powerful. Clean shaven, well spoken henchman.

If we measure GDP per capita across all the Western countries... I'm sure it's all better and allhigher than it was in the 50s and 60s, even the 70s. Yet all these countries seem to not be able to afford anything for the masses.

Why can't the gov't afford it when the country is richer and techonology and science and industry more profitable and efficient? Wealth distribution. Money flow upwards but blame flow down.


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## Logique

luutzu said:


> ....The kind of socialism the Left, I am assuming, want is the kind of policies that actually made Western democracies the kind of place people the world over love. It made possible the lore of poor kids making it in the world through hardwork and studies etc.; it demand that the poor and the sick should be cared for by the state; it demand safe and fair work practices etc. etc.
> 
> These fundamental changes since WW2 have and are being systematically dismantled - it's happening right now as we speak. ANd it's not being done in by refugees or Muslims or the poor - it's being done in by the rich and the powerful. Clean shaven, well spoken henchman....



I hope the campaign managers of all minor parties read this. The next Fed election is a prime opportunity to take votes off the majors. 

Turnbull has good polling, yes, but how many will actually vote Coalition when the time comes.


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## SirRumpole

> These fundamental changes since WW2 have and are being systematically dismantled - it's happening right now as we speak. ANd it's not being done in by refugees or Muslims or the poor - it's being done in by the rich and the powerful. Clean shaven, well spoken henchman.




Yes we are running headlong into a corporatocracy where all our essential services will be supplied by people who want to make a profit out of us.

Electricity, water, health, banking, transport, communications have all been or are being privatised by the Neo Cons usually by stealth with dirty deals like guaranteed profits for decades hidden under the veil of "commercial in confidence" which we only find out after it's too late.

The Greens are looking like a better bet for me at the next election, not that it will do any good because the Neanderthals (Nationals) have my seat sown up.


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## Logique

As PM Turnbull has exhorted us - we'll just have to be 'agile' and 'innovative' - at the ballot box.


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## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Yes we are running headlong into a corporatocracy where all our essential services will be supplied by people who want to make a profit out of us.
> 
> Electricity, water, health, banking, transport, communications have all been or are being privatised by the Neo Cons usually by stealth with dirty deals like guaranteed profits for decades hidden under the veil of "commercial in confidence" which we only find out after it's too late.
> 
> The Greens are looking like a better bet for me at the next election, not that it will do any good because the Neanderthals (Nationals) have my seat sown up.




I think the Nationals are reinventing themselves. Dragging Ian Macfarlan back into the fold is logical given his roots in Agforce and the old guard getting themselves on telly there must be something going on...perhaps seizing the opportunity to escape the shackles of Abbott while Turnbull is looking away.....

True labor is the domain of the young and impetuous, true Liberal is the domain of the exhausted ...... somewhere along the way the SS Enterprise landed and Spock mind melded the two resulting in two conceited hybrids of the one persuasion who are enraged at seeing their own reflections across the floor in parliament.

Economic Managers: Labour X Liberal X
Infrastructure Managers : Labor X Liberal X
Truth in Practice: Labor X Liberal X
Uncompromised Performance: Labor X Liberal X
Servile to USA and GB: Labor √ Liberal √

At least Malcolm is trying to reintroduce the Keating and Hawke good bits in trying to kick start us from the long one generation sleep we've been in.


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## luutzu

Logique said:


> As PM Turnbull has exhorted us - we'll just have to be 'agile' and 'innovative' - at the ballot box.




Yes. Else Bronwyn Bishop will stick around. Read that she want to stay in politics to fight terrorism, no, serious. And to show she really mean it she's heading over to Israel for a "study tour".

The Israeli obviously know how to deal with terrorism seeing they've been at it some 50 years and things are going very well for the Israeli people there.


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## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Yes we are running headlong into a corporatocracy where all our essential services will be supplied by people who want to make a profit out of us.
> 
> Electricity, water, health, banking, transport, communications have all been or are being privatised by the Neo Cons usually by stealth with dirty deals like guaranteed profits for decades hidden under the veil of "commercial in confidence" which we only find out after it's too late.
> 
> The Greens are looking like a better bet for me at the next election, not that it will do any good because the Neanderthals (Nationals) have my seat sown up.




Labor seem to have my area stitched up too. Dam Muslims. haha... There was a candidate whose first name was "Jihad", not sure how he went.

Private enterprise and innovation is all well and good, but why would you, if you look after the people's interests, be selling out the essentials? How much innovation could be made in electricity or water or banking and homeloans? And if efficiency and competitiveness etc. were gained, why would private investor be passing it on to its customers?

It's like a family would sell their only car and catches taxi everywhere - new car each time and the car are always newer models.


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## basilio

Something that is evolving in the US through Donald Trump is the acceptance of violence to Muslims. He just adds fuel and match to the hundreds of thousands of people who already despise "towleheads" and  need only a little shove to attack Muslims at random. There is an interesting article on this from a hate crime expert.


> *
> “Donald Trump is the new face of white supremacy,” says hate crime expert.*
> August 24, 2015 ~ Randy Blazak
> 
> Before you think this article is “just one liberal’s opinion,” let me briefly say I have dedicated my life to studying racism. I earned my PhD from Emory University in 1995 after spending several years doing ethnographic field studies of white supremacist groups. I have published books and articles in peer-reviewed journals on the subject and have appeared on more TV shows than I can remember discussing how hate works. In my 20 years at Portland State University, I interviewed scores of committed racists, from teenage skinheads to racist murderers and founders of Nazi prison gangs. So when I say that presidential candidate Donald Trump is a racist hate-monger it’s not just a political pejorative. He has a constitutional right to hold and express racist views, but using those views to manipulate the intellectually vulnerable and mobilize active bigots requires a coherent response. As an expert on hate, I am more than comfortable stating that either Trump is a virulent racist or that he is willing to perform racism and use racism of others to advance his political position



http://watchingthewheelsdad.net/201...ce-of-white-supremacy-says-hate-crime-expert/

It's also interesting to see the people who are now coming out to support him in his quest for Presidency.

http://www.trendingninjas.com/celeb...ain&utm_medium=BriH&utm_campaign=O4&utm_term=

He is changing the conversation.


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## basilio

There is another excellent analysis examining why the Republican message has become so extreme. Compelling and scary. Explains Trump to a T.


> *
> Explainer: Why are Republicans so extreme these days?*
> 
> Date
> December 11, 2015 - 1:03PM
> 
> View more articles from Chris Zappone
> 
> There have always been candidates and voters with extreme views but in recent years they have seemingly taken over the Republican Party. From the George W. Bush-engineered invasion of Iraq, to the runaway candidacy of Donald Trump, the Republicans are no longer a party of restraint or discipline. Why?



http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...ns-so-extreme-these-days-20151210-gll2ev.html


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## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> There is another excellent analysis examining why the Republican message has become so extreme. Compelling and scary. Explains Trump to a T.
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...ns-so-extreme-these-days-20151210-gll2ev.html




I wonder if it is so scary.

The more Right and wacky they are the less chance they have of getting elected imo, if the situation with middle class salaries is so bad I doubt people would take refuge in a corporation dominated party.


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## wayneL

It's a reaction to the Dumbocrats moving to the left basilio. I mean could you get any more loopy than Bernie?

Strange days indeed.


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## luutzu

wayneL said:


> It's a reaction to the Dumbocrats moving to the left basilio. I mean could you get any more loopy than Bernie?
> 
> Strange days indeed.




They're not moving to the Left, Sifu.

Bernie is now considered a loony left when his platform is what president Eisenhower and his Republican party ran on. That general was no peacenik or commie. Just show how far right US politic has gone since.

Guys like Trump wouldn't win the general election, we hope... but he certainly steer them Yanks a few more inches to the Right this season.


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## wayneL

luutzu said:


> They're not moving to the Left, Sifu.
> 
> Bernie is now considered a loony left when his platform is what president Eisenhower and his Republican party ran on. That general was no peacenik or commie. Just show how far right US politic has gone since.
> 
> Guys like Trump wouldn't win the general election, we hope... but he certainly steer them Yanks a few more inches to the Right this season.




Bernie is no Eisenhower luutzu, that is a slight to a great president, grasshopper.


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## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Bernie is no Eisenhower luutzu, that is a slight to a great president, grasshopper.




Alright so maybe Bernie's no Eisenhower the Allied Supreme Commander. But I'm not wrong about Ike being a Lefty.


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## basilio

Great piece of research on the policies of resident Eisenhower Luutzu. I'm assuming they are accurate.

It certainly makes one think about the change in overall political direction since the 50's.  I wonder how far the Eisenhower administration actually followed their platform. ?


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## luutzu

basilio said:


> Great piece of research on the policies of resident Eisenhower Luutzu. I'm assuming they are accurate.
> 
> It certainly makes one think about the change in overall political direction since the 50's.  I wonder how far the Eisenhower administration actually followed their platform. ?




I think they are. Heard it before from different sources that he, and his republicans, would be considered a Socialist in the current political spectrum. 

There's that famous farewell speech of his warning Americans on unwarranted political influence; the growing military industrial complex; how each warships, each warplane mean a school is not built etc. 

Then there's the US interstate highway project under his admin; union seems to be still the thing back then; highest income tax was 92% or something.

Seems he's a perfect example of the adage that only those who are experienced in war know its horror and know the best way to carry or not to carry it out.

So you have an actual warrior king warning of military excesses, then you have an AWOL pilot defending US skies from the VCs calling himself the War President because he started a couple abroad and a bigger one at home on his people's privacy... and everyone in between who didn't much flinch when they say they'd wipe Iran clean because they love Israel that much; or tag a chip to Muslims because a GPS tag is not at all the same as a tatooed serial number.


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## Knobby22

So Donald Trump looks like winning Republican nomination. What should the Republican establishment do?
Bring back a 19th century way of picking the nomination that was last used 60 years ago to create an alternative.
The problem is who is going to be the other guy? And even if that person manages to knock old Donald off, will anyone vote for them? 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...blicans-discuss-brokered-convention/77139938/


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Alright so maybe Bernie's no Eisenhower the Allied Supreme Commander. But I'm not wrong about Ike being a Lefty.




Compared to Regan and Thatcher they were left, but historically they were just nation builders who knew the value of a healthy and motivated workforce. They had also come out of a war into another then into another, so they had to be and act like a republic.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Alright so maybe Bernie's no Eisenhower the Allied Supreme Commander. But I'm not wrong about Ike being a Lefty.
> 
> View attachment 65268
> View attachment 65269
> View attachment 65270
> View attachment 65271
> View attachment 65272




What you are missing is the context of the times, grasshopper.

Would Ike espouse the same generalized policies in todays political climate. I would bet not all.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> What you are missing is the context of the times, grasshopper.
> 
> Would Ike espouse the same generalized policies in todays political climate. I would bet not all.




Yes, nearly everyone voted in those days.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> What you are missing is the context of the times, grasshopper.
> 
> Would Ike espouse the same generalized policies in todays political climate. I would bet not all.




Who knows. But point was that politics in the US, also in Europe and to a fair degree Australia... has shifted Right and what was a Right/Republican/Liberal platform are now considered the left loonies.

In 1907 [around there right?], the Russian Czars and his nobility were overthrown.

When Franklin D Roosevelt first took office in 1933, a second American revolution was about to ignite - there were angry farmers and desperate people who's just about had it with capitalism and their cronies - and Socialism sounds like a nice change. There were riots in some part of the country.

In Germany, well they add Nationalism to their Socialism and about the take on the world just a few years back.


So when a country shifts so far Right that it does not benefit, but impoverish, the majority of the population... sooner or later one of those three incidents will happen.

There is a fourth, but external invasion won't happen to the US given its crazy numbers of nukes and other hardware all over the place. But it's not inconceivable that a Caesar rise from its rank and start dismantling the current structure and build new ones with himself and friends at the top.

Rome was a republic, somewhat democratic too... with the Senate and all those people voted law givers. Got on well for some 700 years until a half-bald egomaniac crosses the Rubicon. 

History doesn't end in our age right? Well... it could conceivably end given potential of nuclear Armageddon. 


anyway, here's another Republican who's gone over to the dark side. Maybe he didn't go anywhere, just the light has been switched off around him.


----------



## wayneL

Its true luutzu, too far to the right and a lot of people become very unhappy.Likewise too far left.

You have to govern from the center so everyone is equally, but relatively less unhappy :


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Its true luutzu, too far to the right and a lot of people become very unhappy.Likewise too far left.
> 
> You have to govern from the center so everyone is equally, but relatively less unhappy :




Wise words Sifu.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trumps rabid anti Muslim hype is having its effects.  He said that America should simply ban Muslims entering the country. Right now it seems that Homeland security is reinforcing that line by arbitary withdrawal of visa to internationals travellers who are Islamic.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...rica-refuses-british-muslim-family-disneyland


> *
> Calls for David Cameron to step in after US bars British Muslim family from trip*
> 
> *Labour’s Stella Creasy writes to PM after party of 11 heading to Disneyland were told by American officials at Gatwick they could not go*
> 
> The prime minister is facing calls to challenge the US over its refusal to allow a British Muslim family to board a flight from Gatwick to Los Angeles, to visit Disneyland.
> 
> Stella Creasy, the Labour MP for Walthamstow, has written to the prime minister after a family party of 11, about to embark on a dream holiday for which they had saved for months, were approached by officials from US homeland security as they queued in the departure lounge and told their authorisation to travel had been cancelled, without further explanation.
> 
> Creasy said she is concerned that a growing number of British Muslims are saying they have had similar experiences of being barred from the US without being told the reasons for the exclusion.
> 
> The family, from Creasy’s constituency in north-east London, had applied for and were granted travel authorisation online some weeks before their scheduled 15 December flight.
> 
> Speaking to the Guardian, Mohammad Tariq Mahmood, who was travelling with his brother and nine of their children aged between eight and 19, said they had been given no explanation for the last minute cancellation, but he believed the reason was obvious: “It’s because of the attacks on America – they think every Muslim poses a threat.”
> 
> ..... The MP, having “hit a brick wall” in her own attempts to get answers from the American embassy, has asked the prime minister to press US officials for an explanation for the Mahmood family’s exclusion. She has also asked him to clarify whether the UK monitors the numbers and ethnic or religious background of those who are blocked from travelling, to “help reassure all UK citizens that no discrimination on the grounds of faith is happening at UK airports”.
> 
> Mahmood said neither he nor his brother, Mohammad Zahid Mahmood, had ever been in trouble with the police. *They have been told by the airline they were to travel with that the £9,000 cost of their flights, for which they had been saving for many months, will not be refunded.*
> 
> The family were escorted from the airport but were first obliged to return every item they had bought from the airport’s duty-free shops, he said. “I have never been more embarrassed in my life. I work here, I have a business here. But we were alienated.”
> 
> *With no explanation of the reasons for their exclusion, he said, the family have no idea whether they will face similar treatment if they try to travel again in future. In particular, he said, he is concerned that he may never be able to visit the family of his other brother, a US citizen, who lives in southern California*.




How to win friends and influence people.. the American way.

______________________________________________________________________

With this, and a number of other examples, as precedents why would any person with an Islamic sounding name consider visiting the US for any reason? To run the risk of arbitrary insult and the loss of thousands of dollars of travel costs.  Just wrong.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Donald Trumps rabid anti Muslim hype is having its effects.  He said that America should simply ban Muslims entering the country. Right now it seems that Homeland security is reinforcing that line by arbitary withdrawal of visa to internationals travellers who are Islamic.
> 
> 
> How to win friends and influence people.. the American way.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 
> With this, and a number of other examples, as precedents why would any person with an Islamic sounding name consider visiting the US for any reason? To run the risk of arbitrary insult and the loss of thousands of dollars of travel costs.  Just wrong.




They always keep me from getting on until last minute in the USA and even have my name telecast on the concourse tv screens to tell me I can't board while they check out my status. I feel special  

Truth is that we are classed a terror risk with our avant-garde cum apathetic attitude to keeping our country pure of heart, Christian and white.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Donald Trumps rabid anti Muslim hype is having its effects.  He said that America should simply ban Muslims entering the country. Right now it seems that Homeland security is reinforcing that line by arbitary withdrawal of visa to internationals travellers who are Islamic.
> 
> 
> How to win friends and influence people.. the American way.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 
> With this, and a number of other examples, as precedents why would any person with an Islamic sounding name consider visiting the US for any reason? To run the risk of arbitrary insult and the loss of thousands of dollars of travel costs.  Just wrong.



There *could* be more to this. While I wouldn't put it past the Americans to injudiciously do such things, there could be a reason this family was targeted.

I know you're not used to it Bas, and you believe everything the Gaurdian says is gospel, but let's get all the facts, eh?

****BTW, don't forget to attribute articles with a link*** (I have inserted it into your post)


----------



## basilio

*How to get really  xucked over by Uncle Sam*

Seems that Uncle Sam has developed a very powerful way to terrorise anyone it doesn't like. There is the very special No Fly list which allows a secret bureaucrat the privilege of just stopping anyone they want from flying with no need for explanation or justification.

The story comes in The Guardian. (if anyone can find it in The Lying Hun , The Australian or some other paper please let me know)


> *
> The 'No Fly List' operates in secret, and its power to exclude is vast*
> Jeffrey Kahn
> 
> *The standard for inclusion is often based on a ‘predictive judgment’, a ‘reasonable suspicion’ that someone is a ‘suspected terrorist’*
> 
> Thursday 24 December 2015 06.04 AEDT
> 
> 
> The No Fly List is not a government program easily challenged. Indeed, it operates in secrecy, from an undisclosed location, administered by an office – the Terrorist Screening Center – that doesn’t accept public inquiries. When challenged in court, the watchlisters routinely declare their methods safe but secret and fight the disclosure of their standards and criteria for inclusion.
> 
> The British Muslim family recently denied travel to Disneyland might soon discover this, despite the fact that Prime Minister David Cameron has been called upon to examine the case.
> 
> The Guardian reported that, despite prior US approvals, the entire family was turned away from Gatwick’s departure lounge. Without warning or a hearing, their freedom to travel was stripped away at great expense and deep humiliation. Instantly, they were reduced to the status of suspected terrorists by anonymous US officials working without any judicial oversight.
> 
> Imagine your family in their shoes. If you can’t, then you don’t understand the power of the US No Fly List.
> *
> Just ask Ayman Latif, an honorably discharged US marine who sought to return home from abroad to shore up his veteran’s benefits. Without any offered reason or warning, he was exiled by a system that he has spent the last five years challenging in federal court.
> 
> Or ask Rahinah Ibrahim, now a distinguished architect and scholar. As a Stanford University graduate student she found herself arrested and handcuffed in front of her young daughter when she sought to travel from San Francisco to an academic conference. Her eight years of litigation finally uncovered that an FBI agent had mistakenly watchlisted her; the presiding judge labeled it “a bureaucratic analogy to a surgeon amputating the wrong digit”. (Full disclosure: I testified on behalf of Dr Ibrahim at the first and only such trial held so far.)*
> 
> *Or ask many others (whose stories are told in my book on the subject) who say they found themselves at the tender mercies of government officials – typically FBI agents – offering their help to get off the list in exchange for becoming government informants when they returned home.*
> 
> It’s not just Muslim names on this sad list. Although accusations of racial profiling have haunted the use of the No Fly List in the past, for every Mohammad Tariq Mahmood (one of the Gatwick 11), there is a Cat Stevens or Ted Kennedy or John Lewis.
> 
> In this story, however, lies a cautionary tale for travelers regardless of citizenship or religion.
> 
> Thanks to some courageous lawyering in tough, often pro bono cases, startling information has been pried from officials: the standard for inclusion on this list is often based on a “predictive judgment”, a “reasonable suspicion” that someone is a “suspected terrorist” presenting some sort of future threat.
> 
> “In other words”, one federal judge wrote, clearly dismayed by the departure from traditional legal requirements that someone be guilty of some action before deprived of their rights, “an American citizen can find himself labeled a suspected terrorist because of a ‘reasonable suspicion’ based on a ‘reasonable suspicion’.”
> It's messed up for Democrats to use the no-fly list to push for gun laws
> 
> Indeed, the cautionary tale grows grimmer still. For there is no logical reason why terrorist watchlists need be limited to air travel. Indeed, few realize how many watchlists already exist until they find themselves in their crushing grip. There is, of course, a watchlist for maritime travel. And this month President Obama urged the use of the No Fly List to deny access to firearms.
> *
> Whatever one’s views of the second amendment to the constitution, the evidence is unmistakable. A list once confined to stopping hijackers and 9/11 style bombers has grown into the go-to tool for government officials who don’t like their predictive judgments questioned by lawyers and judges.*
> 
> Slowly, federal lawsuits have forced some light on to this system and forced back the worst abuses. But there is still a long way to go. Whatever US officials suspect of this British family, they deserve respect for the fundamental right we all must protect at our peril: equal justice before a neutral magistrate in a public forum.



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/23/no-fly-list-operates-in-secret-power-to-exclude

I wonder what it would take to create "reasonable suspicion" about someone you didn't like ? Seems like SFA.


----------



## wayneL

Basilio you act like this is a surprise to you?


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *How to get really  xucked over by Uncle Sam*
> 
> Seems that Uncle Sam has developed a very powerful way to terrorise anyone it doesn't like. There is the very special No Fly list which allows a secret bureaucrat the privilege of just stopping anyone they want from flying with no need for explanation or justification.
> 
> The story comes in The Guardian. (if anyone can find it in The Lying Hun , The Australian or some other paper please let me know)
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/23/no-fly-list-operates-in-secret-power-to-exclude
> 
> I wonder what it would take to create "reasonable suspicion" about someone you didn't like ? Seems like SFA.





Look on the bright side. It beats being on their Kill List.


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> Look on the bright side. It beats being on their Kill List.




Look of course it does.. That is certainly a mercy we can appreciate.  Going to a wedding in Afghanistan which turns into a mass funeral has never been  top of my wish list.

But an arbitrary no fly list with mistakes, misinformation no redress and the instant categorisation of guilt?  Perhaps also not on my list.  

I wonder how the Y(w)anks would feel if European nations decided to also set up such a list and managed to include some prominent  (w)ankers to show it feels to be just stopped from flying and lose your ticket ?

Be interesting I think..


----------



## Logique

Clinton is no moral to win, assuming she get's the nomination.



> *Why Voters Don't Trust Hillary Clinton*
> Debra J. Saunders | Jul 28, 2015
> 
> http://townhall.com/columnists/debr...dont-trust-hillary-clinton-n2031130/page/full
> 
> Voters in Colorado, Iowa and Virginia think Hillary Clinton is not honest or trustworthy. According to the latest Quinnipiac poll, a mere 34 percent of Colorado voters think she can be trusted; 62 percent do not. In Iowa, those numbers are 33 percent to 59; in Virginia, Clinton is underwater on trust, too, 39 percent to 55 percent.
> 
> Clinton's conduct is catching up with her...


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Look of course it does.. That is certainly a mercy we can appreciate.  Going to a wedding in Afghanistan which turns into a mass funeral has never been  top of my wish list.
> 
> But an arbitrary no fly list with mistakes, misinformation no redress and the instant categorisation of guilt?  Perhaps also not on my list.
> 
> I wonder how the Y(w)anks would feel if European nations decided to also set up such a list and managed to include some prominent  (w)ankers to show it feels to be just stopped from flying and lose your ticket ?
> 
> Be interesting I think..




"The strong do as they will. The weak suffer as they must."
-- Thucydides


The problem with prominent/famous/powerful/rich people (and politicians) is they never really live in the real world, never have to put up with the crap they created and the plebs have to bear - so they don't really give a second's thought.

And if they ever do give the consequences of their decisions a thought, most wouldn't give a heck anyway. They'll justify it somehow... good for the national interests; bear the burden; blah blah blah.

That's why there's always civil war or revolution every couple of generations.


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> Clinton is no moral to win, assuming she get's the nomination.




I can't stand listening to her. High pitched, bulging eyes... 

With Obama, at least he was more convincing... there's no hope or change with Clinton.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Donald Trumps rabid anti Muslim hype is having its effects.  He said that America should simply ban Muslims entering the country. Right now it seems that Homeland security is reinforcing that line by arbitary withdrawal of visa to internationals travellers who are Islamic.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...rica-refuses-british-muslim-family-disneyland
> 
> 
> How to win friends and influence people.. the American way.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 
> With this, and a number of other examples, as precedents why would any person with an Islamic sounding name consider visiting the US for any reason? To run the risk of arbitrary insult and the loss of thousands of dollars of travel costs.  Just wrong.




I find it interesting that you actually bring this up on the Trump thread, implying that Trump is responsible. Trump has not even received the Pub nomination, he's just a hopeful at this stage.

In fact this has been going on for years, indeed under the last 7-8 years of an >>*Obama*<< Democrat administration.

You do understand that don't you?


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> With Obama, at least he was more convincing...




Yeah, like a TV evangelist. Examine the Obama oratory, the techniques are the same.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Yeah, like a TV evangelist. Examine the Obama oratory, the techniques are the same.




Yea, all the way down to raising money too wasn't it?

He's getting better with his speeches since too... got that confident, I'm the Man and I order people around stuff down pat.

What a wasted opportunity. 
He got the people behind him, the country was collapsing - both economically, financially, and infrastructur-ally. 

Good and great leaders would take that opportunity and save the country from itself. Like FDR he could have rebuild its foundation and make it stronger for the couple generations... Instead he double down on the people that break the place, follow policies that enable those people to wreck the place; and screw the masses who gave him all that opportunity and support.

7 years later and the two wars are still going, add some 6 more wars on top in the ME; then picking a fight with Russia and not really doing much to reign in China's expansion until maybe it's too late and you'd have to go to war with it or its proxies... fark!

So abroad more wars and more possible wars; maybe another GFC... at home there's mass shooting, militarised police everywhere, poorer citizens, crumbling infrastructures that doesn't seem to be in hurry to get fixed and maybe employ a few people wanting work as well as putting some of those cash to real work rather than financial games...

Wow... Evangelical preachers couldn't have done this much damage.


----------



## basilio

As Donald Trump gets closer to becoming a serious contender in the next  Presidential election it's worth seeing recognizing just how  much of a sociopath he is .



> *Donald Trump and the Central Park Five: the racially charged rise of a demagogue*
> 
> In 1989 five young black men were wrongfully convicted of raping a woman jogging in New York City. Leading the charge against them was a real estate mogul whose divisive rhetoric can be found in his presidential campaign today
> 
> 
> Thursday 18 February 2016 05.15 AEDT
> Last modified on Thursday 18 February 2016 06.23 AEDT
> 
> 
> *Yusef Salaam was 15 years old when Donald Trump demanded his execution for a crime he did not commit.
> *
> Nearly three decades before the rambunctious billionaire began his run for president – before he called for a ban on Muslims entering the United States, for the expulsion of all undocumented migrants, before he branded Mexicans as “rapists” and was accused of mocking the disabled – Trump called for the reinstatement of the death penalty in New York following a horrific rape case in which five teenagers were wrongly convicted.
> 
> The miscarriage of justice is widely remembered as a definitive moment in New York’s fractured race relations. But Trump’s intervention – he signed full-page newspaper advertisements implicitly calling for the boys to die – has been gradually overlooked as the businessman’s chances of winning the Republican nomination have rapidly increased. Now those involved in the case of the so-called Central Park Five and its aftermath say Trump’s rhetoric served as an unlikely precursor to a unique brand of divisive populism that has powered his rise to political prominence in 2016.




http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...k-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york


----------



## wayneL

Either way, the US stuffed

Trump or Cruz

Hillary or Bernie

Each will screw the US in a different way.


----------



## wayneL

BTW bas, do you anything but Pravd.... Errr, The Guardian?


----------



## basilio

> BTW bas, do you anything but Pravd.... Errr, The Guardian?  Wayne L




And  the relevance to the issue of Donald Trump being a total, vicious psyco is exactly what ?  

You can check the accuracy of the story against a score of other sources. Briefly

1) There was a rape and almost murder of an investment banker in Central park in 1989

2) In the uproar 5 young black guys were rounded up. 

3) The police beat a confession out of them.

4) After the kids were incarcerated and charged Donald Trump put out multiple full page ads demanding the return of the death penalty and in particular for these criminals. (they hadn't been actually tried yet..)

5) The case went to trial. The boys protested their innocence. There was no forensic evidence connecting teh kids to the crime.  The prosecutors case was based solely on the beaten confessions.

6) They were found guilty and sentenced to lengthy periods of jail.

Then it gets interesting

In 2002 a guy who is already in prison puts his hand up for the assault. Forensic investigation identifies his semen in the woman. It is clearly him.

An investigation into the circumstances surrounding the prosecution of the five youths  decides they couldn't have committed the crime and they are released by Christmas2002.

In 2014 the Central Park 5 win a $41 million settlement against  New York city for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment. It's what happens next that tells us how seriously dangerous and deluded Donald Trump is.



> Following a 14-year court battle, the Central Park Five settled a civil case with the city for $41m in 2014. But far from offering an apology for his conduct in 1989, Trump was furious.
> 
> In an opinion piece for the New York Daily News, he described the case as the “heist of the century”.
> 
> “Settling doesn’t mean innocence, but it indicates incompetence on several levels,” Trump wrote, alluding to how police and prosecutors initially involved in the case have long maintained the five boys were involved in the rape, even after the convictions were thrown out.
> 
> D’Antonio, the biographer, met with Trump shortly after the settlement was announced. The billionaire was once again considering a shot at the presidency and would, this time, actually run.
> 
> Trump was asked if he worried that his publicly confrontational style would affect his political prospects. He retorted instantly with a reference to the Central Park Five.
> *
> “I think it will help me,” he said. “I think people are tired of politically correct. I just attacked the Central Park Five settlement. Who’s going to do that?”*
> 
> The biographer was shocked by what he heard. “His insensitivity and inability to adjust to reality is sometimes shocking,” D’Antonio said of Trump. “But I don’t think that he is necessarily interested in reality as others experience it or as it’s determined by the courts.
> 
> *“There have been few cases of injustice that are as clear and profound as this one is, but he’s not able to consider that.”*



http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...k-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york


----------



## noco

Trump may win the Presidency when voters learn the truth.

*WOW !!!!!

This is absolutely unthinkable that nobody especially the CIA would have noticed this....

Trump is starting to look better all the time
This information has all been checked, then double checked... it is 100% Correct.
 That's why there is such an alarm within US government, since Trump's statement about temporary suspension of migration of Muslims to US till US authorities make sure there is a proper concept of safe penetration of US territory.

People are stunned to learn that the head of the U.S. CIA is a Muslim!
Do hope this wakes up some!
Until it hits you like a ton of bricks read it again, until you understand!
We now have a Muslim government!
 John Brennan, current head of the CIA converted to Islam while stationed in Saudi Arabia.

Obama's top adviser, Valerie Jarrett, is a Muslim who was born in Iran where her parents still live.
 Hillary Clinton's top adviser, Huma Abedin is a Muslim, whose mother and brother are still involved in the now outlawed Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt!

Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for Homeland Security, Arif Aikhan, is a Muslim .
Homeland Security Adviser, Mohammed Elibiary, is a Muslim .
Obama adviser and founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Salam al-Marayati, is a Mu slim.
Obama's Sharia Czar, Imam Mohamed Magid, of the Islamic Society of North America is a Muslim .
Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships, Eboo Patel, is a Muslim . 
Nancy Pelosi announced she will appoint Rep Andre Carson, D-Ind, a Muslim , as the first Muslim lawmaker on the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, of all things! It would make Carson the first Muslim to serve on the committee that receives intelligence on the threat of Islamic militants in the Middle East! He has he suggested that U.S. schools should be modeled after Islamic madrassas, where education is based on the Quran!!!

Last but not least, our closet Muslim himself, Barack Hussein Obama.
It's questionable if Obama ever officially took the oath of office when he was sworn in. He did not repeat the oath properly to defend our nation and our Constitution. Later the Democrats claimed he was given the oath again, in private. Yeah, right.
CIA director John Brennan took his oath on a copy of the Constitution, not a Bible??
Valarie Jarret wrote her college thesis on how she wanted to change America into a Muslim friendly nation and she is a Obama top advisor!
Congressman, Keith Ellison took his oath on a copy of the Qur'an, NOT the Bible!
Conservative Congresswoman Michele Bachman, R-MN, was vilified and verbally tarred and feathered by Democrats when she voiced her concern about Muslims taking over our government!
Considering all these appointments, it would explain why Obama and his minions are systematically destroying our nation, supporting radical Muslim groups worldwide, opening our southern border, and turning a blind eye to the genocide being perpetrated on Christians all over Africa and the Middle East!
The more damage Obama does, the more arrogant he's become!
Our nation and our government has been infiltrated by people who want to destroy us! It can only get worse!
In his book Obama said, "if it comes down to it, I will side with the Muslims".

If you fail to pass this one on, there's something wrong……somewhere!
Common sense doesn't grow in everyone's garden!*


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Trump may win the Presidency when voters learn the truth.
> 
> *WOW !!!!!
> 
> This is absolutely unthinkable that nobody especially the CIA would have noticed this....
> 
> Trump is starting to look better all the time
> This information has all been checked, then double checked... it is 100% Correct.
> That's why there is such an alarm within US government, since Trump's statement about temporary suspension of migration of Muslims to US till US authorities make sure there is a proper concept of safe penetration of US territory.
> 
> People are stunned to learn that the head of the U.S. CIA is a Muslim!
> Do hope this wakes up some!
> Until it hits you like a ton of bricks read it again, until you understand!
> We now have a Muslim government!
> John Brennan, current head of the CIA converted to Islam while stationed in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Obama's top adviser, Valerie Jarrett, is a Muslim who was born in Iran where her parents still live.
> Hillary Clinton's top adviser, Huma Abedin is a Muslim, whose mother and brother are still involved in the now outlawed Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt!
> 
> Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for Homeland Security, Arif Aikhan, is a Muslim .
> Homeland Security Adviser, Mohammed Elibiary, is a Muslim .
> Obama adviser and founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Salam al-Marayati, is a Mu slim.
> Obama's Sharia Czar, Imam Mohamed Magid, of the Islamic Society of North America is a Muslim .
> Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships, Eboo Patel, is a Muslim .
> Nancy Pelosi announced she will appoint Rep Andre Carson, D-Ind, a Muslim , as the first Muslim lawmaker on the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, of all things! It would make Carson the first Muslim to serve on the committee that receives intelligence on the threat of Islamic militants in the Middle East! He has he suggested that U.S. schools should be modeled after Islamic madrassas, where education is based on the Quran!!!
> 
> Last but not least, our closet Muslim himself, Barack Hussein Obama.
> It's questionable if Obama ever officially took the oath of office when he was sworn in. He did not repeat the oath properly to defend our nation and our Constitution. Later the Democrats claimed he was given the oath again, in private. Yeah, right.
> CIA director John Brennan took his oath on a copy of the Constitution, not a Bible??
> Valarie Jarret wrote her college thesis on how she wanted to change America into a Muslim friendly nation and she is a Obama top advisor!
> Congressman, Keith Ellison took his oath on a copy of the Qur'an, NOT the Bible!
> Conservative Congresswoman Michele Bachman, R-MN, was vilified and verbally tarred and feathered by Democrats when she voiced her concern about Muslims taking over our government!
> Considering all these appointments, it would explain why Obama and his minions are systematically destroying our nation, supporting radical Muslim groups worldwide, opening our southern border, and turning a blind eye to the genocide being perpetrated on Christians all over Africa and the Middle East!
> The more damage Obama does, the more arrogant he's become!
> Our nation and our government has been infiltrated by people who want to destroy us! It can only get worse!
> In his book Obama said, "if it comes down to it, I will side with the Muslims".
> 
> If you fail to pass this one on, there's something wrong……somewhere!
> Common sense doesn't grow in everyone's garden!*




Dam Muslims... and their war against other... Muslims?

It'd be pretty silly for me, or anyone, to think that a dude running a place is going to be nice to me because he's a dude and I'm a dude and that make us bros.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Either way, the US stuffed
> 
> Trump or Cruz
> 
> Hillary or Bernie
> 
> Each will screw the US in a different way.





Trump: Kill all of them; To be honest with you, I'd bomb all of them; Make America great again, like me! I'm awesome.

Cruz: Nukes nukes and carpet bomb - let's show some ballz and strength. Make America great again. Take back our country.

Hillary: I'm a woman in a man's world. I feel your pain. Money don't move me, people and their suffering does - especially the coloured folks. See how nasty Bernie is against our president? He's just mean against the great Obama - our brother in chief. And of course, bomb Iran, wipe out those Persians if they so much as think about not liking Israel. And oh, forget about change, it's not going to happen - just take it how it is and hope it won't get worst is all I'm saying.

Sanders: Let the Saudis do the bombings and footing the wars and take the refugees. [But that's what we're also doing Senator]... 

I'd pick Bernie. At least he's thinking maybe there ought to be a New Deal. The last time a New Deal was offered it kinda save America.


----------



## bellenuit

noco said:


> Trump may win the Presidency when voters learn the truth.
> 
> *WOW !!!!!
> 
> This is absolutely unthinkable that nobody especially the CIA would have noticed this....
> 
> Trump is starting to look better all the time
> This information has all been checked, then double checked... it is 100% Correct.
> That's why there is such an alarm within US government, since Trump's statement about temporary suspension of migration of Muslims to US till US authorities make sure there is a proper concept of safe penetration of US territory.
> 
> People are stunned to learn that the head of the U.S. CIA is a Muslim!
> Do hope this wakes up some!
> Until it hits you like a ton of bricks read it again, until you understand!
> We now have a Muslim government!
> John Brennan, current head of the CIA converted to Islam while stationed in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Obama's top adviser, Valerie Jarrett, is a Muslim who was born in Iran where her parents still live.
> Hillary Clinton's top adviser, Huma Abedin is a Muslim, whose mother and brother are still involved in the now outlawed Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt!
> 
> Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for Homeland Security, Arif Aikhan, is a Muslim .
> Homeland Security Adviser, Mohammed Elibiary, is a Muslim .
> Obama adviser and founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Salam al-Marayati, is a Mu slim.
> Obama's Sharia Czar, Imam Mohamed Magid, of the Islamic Society of North America is a Muslim .
> Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships, Eboo Patel, is a Muslim .
> Nancy Pelosi announced she will appoint Rep Andre Carson, D-Ind, a Muslim , as the first Muslim lawmaker on the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, of all things! It would make Carson the first Muslim to serve on the committee that receives intelligence on the threat of Islamic militants in the Middle East! He has he suggested that U.S. schools should be modeled after Islamic madrassas, where education is based on the Quran!!!
> 
> Last but not least, our closet Muslim himself, Barack Hussein Obama.
> It's questionable if Obama ever officially took the oath of office when he was sworn in. He did not repeat the oath properly to defend our nation and our Constitution. Later the Democrats claimed he was given the oath again, in private. Yeah, right.
> CIA director John Brennan took his oath on a copy of the Constitution, not a Bible??
> Valarie Jarret wrote her college thesis on how she wanted to change America into a Muslim friendly nation and she is a Obama top advisor!
> Congressman, Keith Ellison took his oath on a copy of the Qur'an, NOT the Bible!
> Conservative Congresswoman Michele Bachman, R-MN, was vilified and verbally tarred and feathered by Democrats when she voiced her concern about Muslims taking over our government!
> Considering all these appointments, it would explain why Obama and his minions are systematically destroying our nation, supporting radical Muslim groups worldwide, opening our southern border, and turning a blind eye to the genocide being perpetrated on Christians all over Africa and the Middle East!
> The more damage Obama does, the more arrogant he's become!
> Our nation and our government has been infiltrated by people who want to destroy us! It can only get worse!
> In his book Obama said, "if it comes down to it, I will side with the Muslims".
> 
> If you fail to pass this one on, there's something wrong……somewhere!
> Common sense doesn't grow in everyone's garden!*




Did a quick check on the first two names. The allegations appear to be garbage and the style of the letter is that of the usual conspiracy nonsense that some here excel in propagating without checking the facts.

John Brennan:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/brennan.asp

Valerie Jarrett:

https://www.truthorfiction.com/valerie-jarrett-is-a-muslim-and-controls-the-white-house/

As for some of the others:

_Obama adviser and founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Salam al-Marayati, is a Muslim.
Obama's Sharia Czar, Imam Mohamed Magid, of the Islamic Society of North America is a Muslim_.

Shock horror. The head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis, *is a Catholic*

As for the ludicrous claims that Obama himself is a Muslim. Hardly worth responding to such tripe.


----------



## luutzu

There's a series of interviews on Youtube Democracy Now about Flint and its water.

An employee of GM's plant there said how GM knew about the crap in the city's water supplies after it corroded their engines in testing. So GM got the city's appointed Manager to switch its water supplies, then remove all the water fountains on its plant... 

Apparently the water supply contain too much chlorine, among lead and legionnaire bateria etc., it was deemed not safe for GM's engines... but no body really bothered to tell the people about it - for a whole year.

And some say Katrina and the levy was just a one off.


In other interview, one of the city's councillor said how the governor took money from Flint and a couple other cities. The city goes broke, then he appointed a special, non-elected Manager... and they raided retirees pensions and cut jobs etc. etc. 

Man, if Clinton win or god help us the Republican win and things just go on as normal... well it won't.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> And  the relevance to the issue of Donald Trump being a total, vicious psyco is exactly what ?
> 
> You can check the accuracy of the story against a score of other sources. Briefly
> 
> 1) There was a rape and almost murder of an investment banker in Central park in 1989
> 
> 2) In the uproar 5 young black guys were rounded up.
> 
> 3) The police beat a confession out of them.
> 
> 4) After the kids were incarcerated and charged Donald Trump put out multiple full page ads demanding the return of the death penalty and in particular for these criminals. (they hadn't been actually tried yet..)
> 
> 5) The case went to trial. The boys protested their innocence. There was no forensic evidence connecting teh kids to the crime.  The prosecutors case was based solely on the beaten confessions.
> 
> 6) They were found guilty and sentenced to lengthy periods of jail.
> 
> Then it gets interesting
> 
> In 2002 a guy who is already in prison puts his hand up for the assault. Forensic investigation identifies his semen in the woman. It is clearly him.
> 
> An investigation into the circumstances surrounding the prosecution of the five youths  decides they couldn't have committed the crime and they are released by Christmas2002.
> 
> In 2014 the Central Park 5 win a $41 million settlement against  New York city for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment. It's what happens next that tells us how seriously dangerous and deluded Donald Trump is.
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...k-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york




It might be true.

Don't know.

Don't care.

But the Guardian has an agenda and an asymmetry in where it digs dirt.

Bias.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> It might be true.
> 
> Don't know.
> 
> Don't care.
> 
> But the Guardian has an agenda and an asymmetry in where it digs dirt.
> 
> Bias.




Doesn't mean Trump is not an azz though Sifu.

It must really pain The Donald to be forced to shake the great unwashed's hands though. The germs, the germs.

Man of the people alright.

Unless Bloomberg comes in and scramble the current state of things, I bet that Bernie Sanders will win this election.

Americans, even red necks, are crazy but they're generally not that much of a racist - most of them. So Trump is not going to win the general election if he win the Republican nomination.

if other Repubs win, well polls have indicate that people just don't trust any one of them, at all. 

They don't trust Hillary either.

So that leaves an old Jewish white guy who will pick Senator Elizabeth Warren and they'll get the centrists, the feminists, and even Republicans who thought maybe being mean to Muslims and Latinos and loving the 1% isn't the American way.

Then once sworn into office, the Sanders administration will try a few major changes... got laughed at and retired to the current status quo. 

Then the people will march into the streets, the para-military are sent in, kill a few hundred citizens, the people then rises and overthrow the democratic system so-called... As this takes place, China will take over the Asia Pacific, the ME will cause more trouble, Russia will take over Eastern Europe and fight NATO for North Africa... and we all will die from nuclear radation.


I'd definitely go see that movie.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> I'd pick Bernie. At least he's thinking maybe there ought to be a New Deal. The last time a New Deal was offered it kinda save America.




Opinions vary on that. Austrian ecoomists maintain it prolonged the depression... we will never know due to a lack of a control.

Bernie would be an unmitigated disaster for America. You think there is acrimony between left and right now? Bernie is so incongruous to the qualities of America that made it great once upon a time, there will be strife... mark my words.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> It might be true.
> 
> Don't know.
> 
> Don't care.
> 
> But the Guardian has an agenda and an asymmetry in where it digs dirt.
> 
> Bias.



And the biased MSM such as the Murdoch Press does not? 

Goodness,  spare me. 

And who becomes the next President means nought.  The bankster cartels and their (sic.,  apologies (sic))  oil petrodollar rules for the moment. 

The Rothschild s assests are said to equal 300 trillion,  the total US economy 200 trillion,  the US President does what he is told or becomes shot. 

In my basic view of course.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Opinions vary on that. Austrian ecoomists maintain it prolonged the depression... we will never know due to a lack of a control.
> 
> Bernie would be an unmitigated disaster for America. You think there is acrimony between left and right now? Bernie is so incongruous to the qualities of America that made it great once upon a time, there will be strife... mark my words.




There always is strife in the US.

 President v Congress. 

Very few US Presidents have done much in domestic policy as opposed to big noting themselves on the world stage.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump now says it's disgraceful that Pope Francis noted "it was unchristan to be building walls rather than bridges" in reference to Trumps proposed Mexican wall.

Truly this guy is so wrong he has to be right. 

(Make of that what you wish..)


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> And the biased MSM such as the Murdoch Press does not?
> 
> Goodness,  spare me.
> 
> And who becomes the next President means nought.  The bankster cartels and their (sic.,  apologies (sic))  oil petrodollar rules for the moment.
> 
> The Rothschild s assests are said to equal 300 trillion,  the total US economy 200 trillion,  the US President does what he is told or becomes shot.
> 
> In my basic view of course.




Of course they are plod, but that wasn't remotely the point. The point is bas' bias in exclusively quoting a biased advocacy (doesn't really qualify as a news org).


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Donald Trump now says it's disgraceful that Pope Francis noted "it was unchristan to be building walls rather than bridges" in reference to Trumps proposed Mexican wall.
> 
> Truly this guy is so wrong he has to be right.
> 
> (Make of that what you wish..)




Ever noticed what's around Vatican city bas?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Vatican wall is enormous.

Designed to cloister those who are holier and more worthy than thou.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Of course they are plod, but that wasn't remotely the point. The point is bas' bias in exclusively quoting a biased advocacy (doesn't really qualify as a news org).




Really you are so full of xhit Wayne I wonder how you can still walk.

The *facts* of what happened to the Central Park 5 are available from a score of media. 
The *fact* that Donald Trump used the assault to get the death sentence up again is also across all the media.

And finally the horrific fact that  Donald Trump still attempted to  inveigle the accused *even when  they were released when it was conclusively proven they had nothing to do with the assault* is also across other media.

Really Wayne your as much a denier as Donald Trump.

______________________________________________________

_With a airy wave of  his hand Wayne L dismisses the entire content of The Guardian as "advocacy" unfit to be given any credence in any discussion. _


----------



## dutchie

So some bloke that lives in a walled area of Italy and heavily restricts who can live inside the walls calls out Trumpie for proposing to do the same. So funny. Where do they get those blokes from?


----------



## Boggo

dutchie said:


> So some bloke that lives in a walled area of Italy and heavily restricts who can live inside the walls calls out Trumpie for proposing to do the same. So funny. Where do they get those blokes from?




Gotta keep those pedo's safe at night :couch


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> So some bloke that lives in a walled area of Italy and heavily restricts who can live inside the walls calls out Trumpie for proposing to do the same. So funny. Where do they get those blokes from?




This Pope didn't actually build the wall round the Vatican. It's an administrative area, not a country and there isn't room for a lot of people.


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> This Pope didn't actually build the wall round the Vatican. It's an administrative area, not a country and there isn't room for a lot of people.




Well that explains his hypocrisy very well.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Really you are so full of xhit Wayne I wonder how you can still walk.
> 
> The *facts* of what happened to the Central Park 5 are available from a score of media.
> The *fact* that Donald Trump used the assault to get the death sentence up again is also across all the media.
> 
> And finally the horrific fact that  Donald Trump still attempted to  inveigle the accused *even when  they were released when it was conclusively proven they had nothing to do with the assault* is also across other media.
> 
> Really Wayne your as much a denier as Donald Trump.
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> 
> _With a airy wave of  his hand Wayne L dismisses the entire content of The Guardian as "advocacy" unfit to be given any credence in any discussion. _




Oh the tedium! Bas I'm concerned for you, either your post is:

1/ an amateurish attempt at a straw man fallacy

2/ Ideological blindness

3/ Intellectual deficiency, or,

4/ some admixture of the above

You continue to miss the point. 

The story my be true.

Don't know, don't care. Trump is entertainment value only.

The point which I have explicitly stated twice now, is that your only source of reference is the Guardian.... O well, okay, and skeptikalnonscience.

Very biased advocacy that only the ideologically afflicted could deny.

Oh and on denial, what exactly are you accusing me of denying now? You seem to have segued from one variety of untenable ad hom to another.

Wanna enlighten me hombre?


----------



## basilio

Your problem Wayne is assuming that my only points of reference are Sceptical Science and the Guardian.

Your other huge problem is offering a knee jerk rejection of anything that is referenced by these organisations because you see them as biased.

That is just total BS. If you want to dispute something I say find evidence from another source to show that the alleged facts are untrue. 

The Donald Trump example was straightforward. As I said, and can easily prove, the facts surrounding the imprisonment of the Central Park 5 and their subsequent exoneration are across a score of media sources. *The only point I was making was highlighting the viciousness of Donald Trump in 1989 and his total dismissal of reality when the guys were pardoned.  I think these are very relevant when considering his standing as the leading Republican candidate for Presidency *

Attempting to summarily dismiss all the content from The Guardian as advocacy or biased is intellectually mindless. If that works for you -  go for it . Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously


----------



## SirRumpole

I think we are getting a bit fussed over Trump.

He's entertainment value, Clinton has the experience in matters of State which is what the POTUS is all about, all the other candidates are sideshows that won't make the grade.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Your problem Wayne is assuming that my only points of reference are Sceptical Science and the Guardian.
> 
> Your other huge problem is offering a knee jerk rejection of anything that is referenced by these organisations because you see them as biased.
> 
> That is just total BS. If you want to dispute something I say find evidence from another source to show that the alleged facts are untrue.
> 
> The Donald Trump example was straightforward. As I said, and can easily prove, the facts surrounding the imprisonment of the Central Park 5 and their subsequent exoneration are across a score of media sources. *The only point I was making was highlighting the viciousness of Donald Trump in 1989 and his total dismissal of reality when the guys were pardoned.  I think these are very relevant when considering his standing as the leading Republican candidate for Presidency *
> 
> Attempting to summarily dismiss all the content from The Guardian as advocacy or biased is intellectually mindless. If that works for you -  go for it . Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously




Show me some dirt digging on Hillary (plenty of material there), or Bernie (Oh my Gawd), in the Guardian and I'll doff my cap.

Meanwhile, I expect only those on the far left wing would agree with you


----------



## luutzu

In his own words:


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> I think we are getting a bit fussed over Trump.
> 
> He's entertainment value, Clinton has the experience in matters of State which is what the POTUS is all about, all the other candidates are sideshows that won't make the grade.




She's panicking and will blow it. IMNTBCHO


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Show me some dirt digging on Hillary (plenty of material there), or Bernie (Oh my Gawd), in the Guardian and I'll doff my cap.
> 
> Meanwhile, I expect only those on the far left wing would agree with you




I don't think being "balanced" mean you have to dig dirt equally on everyone. Or you'd have to show the same amount of dirt, story for story. Ideally, sure... but these papers got to a market to sell to right?

But that in no way diminished how messed up the Donald is. I mean it might be understandable to call for the death penalty blah blah after seeing the crime... but when the court later dismiss the case, the "wildings" were completely innocent, may the least you'd do when you were calling the loudest for their death... is some self examination, some apology. Not doubling down and call into question the justice system because it didn't go your way.

What a psycho. But I do hope the Republican chooses him though.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> I think we are getting a bit fussed over Trump.
> 
> He's entertainment value, Clinton has the experience in matters of State which is what the POTUS is all about, all the other candidates are sideshows that won't make the grade.




I thought so too... thought he got the Apprentice to promote. But seems it's different this time. Scary/


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Opinions vary on that. Austrian ecoomists maintain it prolonged the depression... we will never know due to a lack of a control.
> 
> Bernie would be an unmitigated disaster for America. You think there is acrimony between left and right now? Bernie is so incongruous to the qualities of America that made it great once upon a time, there will be strife... mark my words.




No,we do know.

The Great Depression made countless people homeless, jobless, hopeless, living in Hoovervilles and tent cities; There were a couple of riots in the heartland where the gov't was practically overthrown there.

The entire country was on the brink of revolution, capitalism was on its way out and Soviet style communism was sounding real nice to a lot of Americans.

FDR himself said that if he failed, he'd be its last president.

What did he succeeded in doing?

Spend and invest: Hire unemployed artists to paint city halls, teach art; performers to go into country towns and perform plays; building roads and infrastructures; hired people to clean up and keep public parks and national parks etc. etc.

Regulate the financial industry. The Feds, the SEC; regulate the banks and financial services.

Then WW2 and Pearl Harbour happen and that really put these Keysian ideas into practice and all gov't since have always follow similar policies to jump start their economy. Until recently when Austerity was all the rage. That's why the Great Depression is still going on. 

Beside waring a few wars and making the arms industry a bunch of money (and the banks, and the Insurance), nothing much is being done under Obama. Things just got worst.

If the next president follow the same path, or if they are obstructed and the lobbyist have their way... the US may not recover. If it does, it will be a shadow of itself - much like the way the British empire came out of WW2.

I think Chris Hedges was saying how no empire ever really fall due to an external enemy. They fall because their own policies and ruling elite hollow the country from within... then came an external force with a push and it will just collapse onto itself.


----------



## basilio

I'm not sure about Trump being "entertainment" value in this election campaign.

When he started perhaps. But six months and leading the Republican ticket by a street suggests he has tapped/created a very large support basis.
*
He has also changed the conversation. *He has seemingly normalised the idea of building a huge wall across the Mexican border and "somehow" forcing the Mexicans to pay for it.  He still wants to ban Muslims from coming to America !  He talks of bring back some real torture in the attack on terrorists.

And while he saying this mad, hateful stuff the rest of the Republicans are shuffling their feet and not disagreeing.. It appears there is a race amongst the Republican candidates to  sprout the most aggressive and impractical thought bubbles they can create to keep up with Trump.

Meanwhile the rest of the world wonders just what is happening in the most powerful country on the planet.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> I'm not sure about Trump being "entertainment" value in this election campaign.
> 
> When he started perhaps. But six months and leading the Republican ticket by a street suggests he has tapped/created a very large support basis.
> *
> He has also changed the conversation. *He has seemingly normalised the idea of building a huge wall across the Mexican border and "somehow" forcing the Mexicans to pay for it.  He still wants to ban Muslims from coming to America !  He talks of bring back some real torture in the attack on terrorists.
> 
> And while he saying this mad, hateful stuff the rest of the Republicans are shuffling their feet and not disagreeing.. It appears there is a race amongst the Republican candidates to  sprout the most aggressive and impractical thought bubbles they can create to keep up with Trump.
> 
> Meanwhile the rest of the world wonders just what is happening in the most powerful country on the planet.




I suppose that's true, but isn't it just really like members of the Labor Party choosing their leader and members of the Liberal Party choosing their leader, that doesn't mean that uncommitted voters necessarily will vote for them in November.

You don't have to be a member of either party to vote in the Presidential election, whereas in the Primaries you have to be a registered Democrat or Republican. 

That's my understanding anyway.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> I'm not sure about Trump being "entertainment" value in this election campaign.
> 
> When he started perhaps. But six months and leading the Republican ticket by a street suggests he has tapped/created a very large support basis.
> *
> He has also changed the conversation. *He has seemingly normalised the idea of building a huge wall across the Mexican border and "somehow" forcing the Mexicans to pay for it.  He still wants to ban Muslims from coming to America !  He talks of bring back some real torture in the attack on terrorists.
> 
> And while he saying this mad, hateful stuff the rest of the Republicans are shuffling their feet and not disagreeing.. It appears there is a race amongst the Republican candidates to  sprout the most aggressive and impractical thought bubbles they can create to keep up with Trump.
> 
> Meanwhile the rest of the world wonders just what is happening in the most powerful country on the planet.



What happened?

Obama happened. Promises of sweetness and light, nauseating chants of yes we can, and like all socislists, completely unreal expectations of what can be done in the US.

As much as anything, the Trump phenomenon is a reaction to the utter disappointment of two terms of Obama and the left of Dem agenda. You net he's changed the conversation. While I don't necessarily agree with him, these conversations are the ones people want to have, without being stifled by the thought police brownshirts.

He deserves to be congratulated for having the cajones to initiate them.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> No,we do know.
> 
> The Great Depression made countless people homeless, jobless, hopeless, living in Hoovervilles and tent cities; There were a couple of riots in the heartland where the gov't was practically overthrown there.
> 
> The entire country was on the brink of revolution, capitalism was on its way out and Soviet style communism was sounding real nice to a lot of Americans.
> 
> FDR himself said that if he failed, he'd be its last president.
> 
> What did he succeeded in doing?
> 
> Spend and invest: Hire unemployed artists to paint city halls, teach art; performers to go into country towns and perform plays; building roads and infrastructures; hired people to clean up and keep public parks and national parks etc. etc.
> 
> Regulate the financial industry. The Feds, the SEC; regulate the banks and financial services.
> 
> Then WW2 and Pearl Harbour happen and that really put these Keysian ideas into practice and all gov't since have always follow similar policies to jump start their economy. Until recently when Austerity was all the rage. That's why the Great Depression is still going on.
> 
> Beside waring a few wars and making the arms industry a bunch of money (and the banks, and the Insurance), nothing much is being done under Obama. Things just got worst.
> 
> If the next president follow the same path, or if they are obstructed and the lobbyist have their way... the US may not recover. If it does, it will be a shadow of itself - much like the way the British empire came out of WW2.
> 
> I think Chris Hedges was saying how no empire ever really fall due to an external enemy. They fall because their own policies and ruling elite hollow the country from within... then came an external force with a push and it will just collapse onto itself.




Grasshopper, Grasshopper. You are confusing the political narrative of the day for empirical fact. Now go do your unabridged economic history again plus 5000 pushups.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> What happened?
> 
> Obama happened. Promises of sweetness and light, nauseating chants of yes we can, and like all socislists, completely unreal expectations of what can be done in the US.
> 
> As much as anything, the Trump phenomenon is a reaction to the utter disappointment of two terms of Obama and the left of Dem agenda. You net he's changed the conversation. While I don't necessarily agree with him, these conversations are the ones people want to have, without being stifled by the thought police brownshirts.
> 
> He deserves to be congratulated for having the cajones to initiate them.




Interesting... So where do you stand on the Presidential election Wayne?  Who do you believe is best suited to be POTUS ?


----------



## wayneL

I like Rand Paul, but not a chance.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Grasshopper, Grasshopper. You are confusing the political narrative of the day for empirical fact. Now go do your unabridged economic history again plus 5000 pushups.




Sifu, Sifu. Not enough sunscreens you may have. Land Down Under it is hot in summer and drought in winter. Sunstroke is a common ailment, more so with Climate Change and its four seasons in a week catching people unaware. Particularly harmful to those of advanced age. 

Thy grasshopper swear the political climate of the past 3 decades is one of Austerity and not of Gov't-can-also-do-things-too. But if soever wise and old Sifu refers to the political climate of the 1930s, then you too may be mistaken (ahem, wrong) for the political climate at the time was to mobilise the people to first defend, then to fight, evil fascism.

The means by which a country and a people were united and mobilised against a common enemy was to have the gov't taking charge; the gov't making investment (spending) on manufacturing, on rapid research and development, on putting people to work, on giving them hope and purpose. 

Further to this objective, banks and financial institutions were regulated real and proper; monopolies were not tolerated and unions that protect workers' rights were welcomed.

Then out of this necessity to employ the masses; of needing a gov't to make investment (because private enterprise and Fat Cats all hide their cash and gold, not making any investment, not spending on anything other than a few banquets now and then... Out of this proved Keynes' theory of economic stimulus during recession; the multiplier effect of gov't spending and investment... out of this put to bed the then popular idea of Austerity and "living within our means" that was prevalent all over the Western economies; ideas that forced Germany to repay debt but make no investment (kinda like Greece and Spain and Italy now isn't it?) then Hitler rises and put all German people to work (waging war and making propanda and stuff) kinda got them out of their depression and onto superior grounds with dream of a million year Reich or something.

Where was I? haha... 

Yeaa.... no you're wrong Sifu.


----------



## orr

From a longer, timely,  piece in today's;
http://economistsview.typepad.com

Delong makes an interesting 3 point conclusion, for those that go to the article.


'Quantitative Easing: Walking the Walk without Talking the Talk?'

_Brad DeLong:

Quantitative Easing: Walking the Walk without Talking the Talk?: The extremely-sharp Joe Gagnon is approaching the edge of shrillness: he seeks to praise the Bank of Japan for what it has done, and yet stress and stress again that what it has done is far too little than it should and needs to do ...

Those of us who are, like me, broadly in Joe Gagnon's camp are now having to grapple with an unexpected intellectual shock. When 2010 came around and when the "Recovery Summers" and "V-Shaped Recoveries" that had been confidently predicted by others refused to arrive, we once again reached back to the 1930s. We remembered the reflationary policies of Neville Chamberlain, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Takahashi Korekiyo, and Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht gave us considerable confidence that quantitative easing supported by promises that reflation was the goal of policy would be effective. They had been effective in the major catastrophe of the Great Depression. They should, we thought, also be effective in the less-major catastrophe that we started by calling the "Great Recession", but should now have shifted to calling the "Lesser Depression", and in all likelihood will soon be calling the "Longer Depression".
_


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> Obama happened. Promises of sweetness and light, nauseating chants of yes we can, and *like all socialists*, *completely unreal expectations of what can be done in the US*.




The idea of a national health scheme (Obamacare), what a "completely unreal expectation" even though the rest of the first world have adopted such a system.

Like all capitalist pigs, Trump would love to turn the US into a third world nation where the existing rich become richer by default.


----------



## wayneL

1/ Obamacare is not a universal health scheme.

2/ In any case, that us but one aspect of the 8 year debacle.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Yeaa.... no you're wrong Sifu.




Sifu can never wrong, it is just not Tao.

Grasshoppers, on the other hand..... 

Subjectivism is not objective, Grasshopper.


----------



## basilio

The Donald has trumped home in S Carolina.  Jeb Bush has withdrawn from the Republican race.

On history Donald Trump has high probability of being the Republican nomination for POTUS.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...caucus-live-coverage-us-presidential-election

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-south-carolina-primary-results-election-2016


----------



## basilio

Another view of The Great Trump


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Another view of The Great Trump





That was awesome. Then it got scary that he actually say all that. Then it got really really fricken scary that you're saying he now has the best of winning the Republican nominee for POTUS.

But on the bright side, if he wins the Republican will lose. They would right?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Sifu can never wrong, it is just not Tao.
> 
> Grasshoppers, on the other hand.....
> 
> Subjectivism is not objective, Grasshopper.




Certainly Sifu. Sifu is never wrong - just facts tend to either do not support Sifu's interpretation, or it has yet to support Sifu's insight. 

Subjectivism [new word there Sifu?] is not Objectivism... Indeed it is not. But thy grashopper's paraphrasing of economists, political scientists and historians (and documentarians such as Ken Burns) kinda not make it Grasshopper's subjective interpretation but a widely proven and accurate account of history as we it was lived and now barely breathing.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Certainly Sifu. Sifu is never wrong - just facts tend to either do not support Sifu's interpretation, or it has yet to support Sifu's insight.
> 
> Subjectivism [new word there Sifu?] is not Objectivism... Indeed it is not. But thy grashopper's paraphrasing of economists, political scientists and historians (and documentarians such as Ken Burns) kinda not make it Grasshopper's subjective interpretation but a widely proven and accurate account of history as we it was lived and now barely breathing.




History is *always* subjective, Grasshopper. You, of all people should know that.

The predominate economic theory taught in our leftist universities is Keynesianism. Economic history is viewed through that prism, but refraction distorts the view.

Open your mind Grasshopper, this is Tao.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> History is *always* subjective, Grasshopper. You, of all people should know that.
> 
> The predominate economic theory taught in our leftist universities is Keynesianism. Economic history is viewed through that prism, but refraction distorts the view.
> 
> Open your mind Grasshopper, this is Tao.




True, history is always subjective. Might have climbed the right mountain after all Sifu, ahaha.

So what do you attribute the great boom following WW2 to Sifu?

In America, we can attribute the fact that it's the only great powers left intact - Australia and NZ being the other [great powers? ]. So with victory comes the booty and Nazi gold and world domination and all the goodies that goes with such might.

But what else? American manufacturing supplying and lending to Europe for reconstruction.

How does Europe got back on its feet? Well there's the colonies that kind of help along... but there's only so much Europe could extract from its savages right?

I think it all boils down to gov't spending and investment, thus employing the masses and building small and medium enterprises; and reaping dividends in terms of new infrastructure, new technology and innovation, a well employed and educated population... all paying their taxes and having something to pay the taxes with.

All these results in three decades of unprecedented economic growth, making Western democracy and lifestyle the envy of the world. 

Things start to shift Right since Reagan and Thatcher, and now we're all about Austerity, paying more taxes, doing more sacrificing and the country can't afford anything. What the...


----------



## Knobby22

Economics is stuffed at the moment.
The world has been practicing neo classical theory and when that has failed starting to use Keynesian mechanisms to pump prime and negative interest rates (under classical theory( to start inflation. Both won't work. 
The way Keynesian is meant to work is that he country saves the money and then spends it to limit the dips. If the country prints money or borrows it then this counteracts the stimulus. Its just stupid. 

At least Trump doesn't seem to be a slave to this muddle headedness and the establishment who do nothing for the middle class.

If you look at the Republican options, now that Bush has gone, Trump is probably the second best after Kasich, then third Rubio. Lastly Carson and Cruz, .. what a poor choice.
in my view the only person who can knock off Hilary is Kasich. Trump will lose.


----------



## Wysiwyg

luutzu said:


> Then it got really really fricken scary that you're saying he now has the best of winning the Republican nominee for POTUS.



He takes trash talking to a whole new level and sends the message that it is okay to do it. It's a wonder no one has tried to bop him off.


----------



## basilio

Wysiwyg said:


> He takes trash talking to a whole new level and sends the message that it is okay to do it. It's a wonder no one has tried to bop him off.




He promises things that are just impossible to do. He says things that are sheer rubbish. He denies events that have happened. He makes up events that never happened.

All the while he* demands *to be made leader of Great New Powerful USA.

The theory at the moment is that even if he wins Republican nomination he won't be electable. To be honest they said the same about Hitler in 1932.  Didn't work out that way. Overwhelming power hungry people  usually don't let details like election results stop them. 

IMV the question is whether the Republican machine will allow and then get behind Trump or whether he is too ugly even for them. I fear that they will hold their nose and if he is the nominee do everything they can to get him elected and hope he can be restrained/recalibrated as a President.  But if he does get in  I think Trump would find/create a trigger for a State of Emergency and assume a range of autocratic powers that would let him clear away opponents and policies he doesn't want.


----------



## explod

I think you have it summed Bas., 

Repeat of 1930s in political moves and markets.   The freightening fact is that it embraces the whole planet this time with nowhere to hide.


----------



## basilio

*Just making it up...*

Yep politicians tell porkies.  They can be creative with facts.  They even lie.  But Donald Trump takes this to a another universe and when he has finished his supporters or even neutral people  have been mind xucked.

Example
A day after a black activist was kicked and punched by voters at a Donald Trump rally in Alabama, Trump tweeted an image packed with racially loaded and incorrect murder statistics.  Clearly it was designed to take peoples minds off the image of a black guy being beaten up at one of his rallies. Looked like this 




In the real world what actually happens ? Well firstly *the Crime Statistics Bureau in San Francisco doesn't exist 
* So the first lie starts with fabricating a non existent "official sounding" organization as your reference.

None of the numbers are supported by official sources. The figures on black-on-white homicides and white-on-white homicides are wildly inaccurate.

Check out just how much of a liar Donald Trump is on the site.


> *
> Trump's Pants on Fire tweet that blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims
> 
> By Jon Greenberg on Monday, November 23rd, 2015 at 3:35 p.m. *




The most glaring lie? Trump said  81% of White were killed by blacks.  (Scary stuff what)  The reality (as far as could be determined) *15% of whites were killed by blacks*

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mp/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/


----------



## Logique

I would no more trust Trump than Turnbull if elected.

Trump has a real chance in the US, because it's about getting voters to turn out and vote voluntarily.

There are a lot of US voters fed up with H.Clinton.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> True, history is always subjective....




Only to those who lack objectivity of that history ..... Tismeism


----------



## Tisme

Wysiwyg said:


> He takes trash talking to a whole new level and sends the message that it is okay to do it. It's a wonder no one has tried to bop him off.




The US populace is by and large conditioned to admire individuals of fame, no matter how vulgar they may be. They crave incipient causes, thus their penchant for fads..... we aren't much better. Brain washing on a massive scale via the media.

I remember being taught that birds flock because of some magnetic this and that and blah blah, then someone fed a chaos algorithm into a superdupa computer and lo and behold if it didn't simulate the birds apparently all following the leader in some organised structure. Americans are like that, dancing to a self perpetuating entropic cadence IMO.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Only to those who lack objectivity of that history ..... Tismeism




Yea well, we can't all be Irish and see the British for what they are [that kinda make sense, if you really think about it  ].

Recall this paragraph in some undergrad psycho text where the author was saying how it is hard to imagine that one of the most culturally advanced and civilised country in the world - Germany - could commit such heinous crime against humanity.

At the time I thought that's true. Following the guy's argument about how a country that produce Beethoven, Carl Marx [] and the Volkswagen could see no wrong in waging war and genocide. Must be the evil Hitler and his demonic grip on the depressed and fallen people in their weakest hour etc. 

No doubt Hitler is all messed up and Nazi Germany was not the place you'd want to be unless you're of pure blood. But beside the singling out of European Jewry for extermination, all the crimes and debauchery of the Third Reich are simply things all Imperial Powers throughout the ages do. That's just messed up when you think about it.

Caesar the first climbed to fame mainly because of his victories against the Gaul - wiping out about 1/3 of the population; Then Rome kinda continue on expanding as it has and civilising Egypt and take its grains for the fee, repeat the process all over the region. There's the Chinese starting with a small state way up North somewhere and now count over 100 different ethnic groups as its people - the majority being the Han (and they were kept busy for the last couple hundred years dealing with the Europeans, the Japanese, and the American).

Then of course there's the Europeans, slavery, colonialism and Great Power politics and so call grand strategy destroying entire countries and people. 

In the Nuclear age with easy travel, easy access to guns and firepower (in America) - the old way of politics and empire is probably not as profitable (and safe) for the imperial power as it used to be. But these politicians and their planners somehow doesn't seem to think about it.

The current strategy seem to be - let's do what all powers have done, only do it deadlier; and if there's blowbacks well we'll monitor everybody, abandon these pesky civil rights and legal principles so that those who do no wrong have nothing to worry about (they hope and pray) and blowback will be kept at a minimal. Then goes billions to hundreds of billions a year to keep a sharper eye out for a needle in a bigger more complicated haystack - at home; abroad more deadlier weapons, better bases and armoured vehicles and drones and robotics to do the dirty work (and create more enemies and dead people). 

All for what? It's insane. Forget about the idea of killing people or causing their death indirectly.

It's quite stupid. It's like me being a billionaire and instead of using money to buy stuff I use it to buy guns, hire and recruit goons and go break down the local deli to take their stuff home. Then to prevent retaliation I spend more money to hire security guards, post them every couple metre around my massive fence perimeter and all over the grounds. Then to keep the little kids happy so that they won't see their old man as a violent crazy lunatic I'd have to pay the media and a few comedians to tell stories of my virtue and glory and benevolent.

Whatever happen to just buying things? Especially when you have the money and it keep your hands clean.

Yet these idiotic politicians talks about security and wiping out people and us and them - all in the same breath. 
It's amazing humans are still around. Maybe not for much longer the way it's going.


----------



## luutzu

Bob Dylan

*Masters of War*
Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Yea well, we can't all be Irish and see the British for what they are [that kinda make sense, if you really think about it  ].
> 
> Recall this paragraph in some undergrad psycho text where the author was saying how it is hard to imagine that one of the most culturally advanced and civilised country in the world - Germany - could commit such heinous crime against humanity.
> 
> At the time I thought that's true. Following the guy's argument about how a country that produce Beethoven, Carl Marx [] and the Volkswagen could see no wrong in waging war and genocide. Must be the evil Hitler and his demonic grip on the depressed and fallen people in their weakest hour etc.
> 
> No doubt Hitler is all messed up and Nazi Germany was not the place you'd want to be unless you're of pure blood. But beside the singling out of European Jewry for extermination, all the crimes and debauchery of the Third Reich are simply things all Imperial Powers throughout the ages do. That's just messed up when you think about it.
> 
> Caesar the first climbed to fame mainly because of his victories against the Gaul - wiping out about 1/3 of the population; Then Rome kinda continue on expanding as it has and civilising Egypt and take its grains for the fee, repeat the process all over the region. There's the Chinese starting with a small state way up North somewhere and now count over 100 different ethnic groups as its people - the majority being the Han (and they were kept busy for the last couple hundred years dealing with the Europeans, the Japanese, and the American).
> 
> Then of course there's the Europeans, slavery, colonialism and Great Power politics and so call grand strategy destroying entire countries and people.
> 
> In the Nuclear age with easy travel, easy access to guns and firepower (in America) - the old way of politics and empire is probably not as profitable (and safe) for the imperial power as it used to be. But these politicians and their planners somehow doesn't seem to think about it.
> 
> The current strategy seem to be - let's do what all powers have done, only do it deadlier; and if there's blowbacks well we'll monitor everybody, abandon these pesky civil rights and legal principles so that those who do no wrong have nothing to worry about (they hope and pray) and blowback will be kept at a minimal. Then goes billions to hundreds of billions a year to keep a sharper eye out for a needle in a bigger more complicated haystack - at home; abroad more deadlier weapons, better bases and armoured vehicles and drones and robotics to do the dirty work (and create more enemies and dead people).
> 
> All for what? It's insane. Forget about the idea of killing people or causing their death indirectly.
> 
> It's quite stupid. It's like me being a billionaire and instead of using money to buy stuff I use it to buy guns, hire and recruit goons and go break down the local deli to take their stuff home. Then to prevent retaliation I spend more money to hire security guards, post them every couple metre around my massive fence perimeter and all over the grounds. Then to keep the little kids happy so that they won't see their old man as a violent crazy lunatic I'd have to pay the media and a few comedians to tell stories of my virtue and glory and benevolent.
> 
> Whatever happen to just buying things? Especially when you have the money and it keep your hands clean.
> 
> Yet these idiotic politicians talks about security and wiping out people and us and them - all in the same breath.
> It's amazing humans are still around. Maybe not for much longer the way it's going.




Nations act through their politicians, the politicians interpret the pulse of the nation and react. The Germans were humiliated at having lost WW1 then having their old foe, the French insist, on punishing them with reparations. 

It's the poms who gave the Germans impetus in warfare by hiring them from the Holy Roman Empire and giving them the "Hessian" troop title in the fight with the British colonials in the civil war that has since been renamed the "American Revolutionary War". Once they learned how to fight they could see the opportunities for empire unfold.


----------



## Knobby22

I think the American people and Trump are being treated a bit histrionically in this thread.

Trump is popular because:
(a) He is not part of the Republican establishment which is pro war and paid for by arms manufacturers. I mean they want to go Iran again!
(b) Has stated that wars are a waste of money. 
(c) Appears to say what he means and is not owned by big corporations.
(d) Is more moderate than many of the opposition candidates.

Sure, he is a bit of a demagogue but under the democratic system he will be forced to make policies if he wants to beat Hilary. Comparing him to Hitler is tosh.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Nations act through their politicians, the politicians interpret the pulse of the nation and react. The Germans were humiliated at having lost WW1 then having their old foe, the French insist, on punishing them with reparations.
> 
> It's the poms who gave the Germans impetus in warfare by hiring them from the Holy Roman Empire and giving them the "Hessian" troop title in the fight with the British colonials in the civil war that has since been renamed the "American Revolutionary War". Once they learned how to fight they could see the opportunities for empire unfold.




Pretty sure the Romans would have given the German their start. What with Augustus losing a couple of his Legions to them Germanic tribe and thought it's best not to expand beyond the Danube or something.

That probably gave those barbarians some propaganda towards doing what Romes only did. Hail Hitler and Hail Caesar and Czar and Kaiser all came from Rome right?

Aren't White people glad to have Muslims being the punching bag for that storied Clash of Civilisation stuff? 

What was the rationale when them cousins were at each other's throat I wonder.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Pretty sure the Romans would have given the German their start. What with Augustus losing a couple of his Legions to them Germanic tribe and thought it's best not to expand beyond the Danube or something.
> 
> That probably gave those barbarians some propaganda towards doing what Romes only did. Hail Hitler and Hail Caesar and Czar and Kaiser all came from Rome right?
> 
> Aren't White people glad to have Muslims being the punching bag for that storied Clash of Civilisation stuff?
> 
> What was the rationale when them cousins were at each other's throat I wonder.




The British Empire was different to the past empires in that while it started out to have a piece of the Spanish/Portuguese action, it became the first industrial focus empire and didn't mind training and financing foreign armies if it meant wealth creation. WW1 was the first of the mercantile wars where cornering trade was the prize. The Brits didn't want to cripple Germany after it because they wanted a strong trading partnership to remain.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The British Empire was different to the past empires in that while it started out to have a piece of the Spanish/Portuguese action, it became the first industrial focus empire and didn't mind training and financing foreign armies if it meant wealth creation. WW1 was the first of the mercantile wars where cornering trade was the prize. The Brits didn't want to cripple Germany after it because they wanted a strong trading partnership to remain.




Aren't all empires about wealth creation? Just a few barbarians got to be chained or whipped or sent to meet their makers if that's what it takes.

I thought the Brits have to train and finance colonised subjects as foot soldiers because there aren't that many Brits around to do the footing. Especially so during WW1 when a fair number of them were shipping in from all over the world to help the motherland against the Kaisers and Turks.

I don't know the detail of WW1, but from some economic book I heard that Keynes, as part of the British delegate to Versailles were so upset by the treaty and terms put on Germany that he quit and wrote some treatise - which Hitler later use to justify tearing it up and start the Third Reich. So i don't think the Brits, or at least its high command at the time, were caring too much about the burden on the Germans. Much like Greece and Spain today... crippling the heck out of those countries, forcing them to sell their national assets to repay the bankers.  

But yea, maybe the Brits back in post WW1 didn't mean to cripple Germany, it just work out that way. Though a few smarter Brits knew it would but weren't listened to.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> I think the American people and Trump are being treated a bit histrionically in this thread.
> 
> Trump is popular because:
> (a) He is not part of the Republican establishment which is pro war and paid for by arms manufacturers. I mean they want to go Iran again!
> (b) Has stated that wars are a waste of money.
> (c) Appears to say what he means and is not owned by big corporations.
> (d) Is more moderate than many of the opposition candidates.
> 
> Sure, he is a bit of a demagogue but under the democratic system he will be forced to make policies if he wants to beat Hilary. Comparing him to Hitler is tosh.




Trump *is* big corporations. He should be the poster child for corporate welfare seeing how he suk at his businesses and declare bankruptcies more than a few times. I heard the dude's casino filed for bankruptcy three times over six years... Must take a lot of talent and trying to go bankrupt that often operating a casino.

He might be more moderate than, say Cruz; and I did heard him saying let's get out of Syria and let Russia bomb ISIS etc. But that does not mean he's a peacenik and not a warmonger. Given his ego and his ability to "delegate", it doesn't take a Machiavelli to influence the guy and get him to push a couple buttons.

While I don't think anyone is comparing Trump to Hitler, I think it's true that the current political and economic climate is very very close to the conditions that led to the rise of Hitler and fascism. I mean, the fact that an idiot like Trump is leading tells us a lot.

That not many Republican voters trust the current establishment - they want change; they know they're getting a raw deal and all the established and typical candidate are in the pockets of big money. That's a dangerous place to be in a democracy, or in any gov't. You do not want the population to mistrust and find the established order working and serving the elite while neglecting the masses like them.

Though in a democracy with well established rights, it might end with a peaceful revolution - like the Civil Rights movement, maybe. But if we look at the rights and legal principles guaranteed under the US constitution... a fair number of those have been abandoned or removed completely in favour of war, of "security" and for corporate power and influence. Such as the US Supreme Court ruling on those SuperPac and allow pretty much unlimited money into politics - that money is free speech or something; then Corporation as people; or ruled recently that a gov't agency cannot enforce an EPA order that big power plants curb their emission to protect the environment - a law that currently exists and the court agreed with the corporations' lawyers that it shouldn't be implemented until after they sue the EPA/Gov in court first. It's an existing law but it shouldn't be permitted?

Anyway... most of the safeguards against internal revolutions and civil unrest have been systematically removed past few decades. It better be reinstated or else it will follow what had followed only some 90 to 100 years before all over Europe and the world. I mean, Czar Nicolas was still alive and his Russian empire was still his 100 years ago. Don't think he or anyone would have guessed in a couple year's time it's all over.

I think it was Han Fei Tzu that said that it is the people that carry the ship of state. Just as the water carry the ship, it too could flip it.

When you have somehting like 162 families donating more than half of all political contributions; or some 1 percent owning more than half the wealth of the US; or 62 individuals owning more wealth than half the world...  I don't think it's going to be safe the way it's going. Something have to change, and hoping that there's enough smart people with power right now to kinda do something about it before a few hundred million people have to die to spin the world around.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> . So i don't think the Brits, or at least its high command at the time, were caring too much about the burden on the Germans.
> But yea, maybe the Brits back in post WW1 didn't mean to cripple Germany, it just work out that way. Though a few smarter Brits knew it would but weren't listened to.




I  think it's public record that the British didn't want to cripple Germany and actually reworked the compensation when its predication of default became reality. Can't talk about what the various internet forums recount is, but that's as I was taught.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I  think it's public record that the British didn't want to cripple Germany and actually reworked the compensation when its predication of default became reality. Can't talk about what the various internet forums recount is, but that's as I was taught.




Interesting how both Germany and Japan both came back from devastation faster than Britain because they rebuilt industries from scratch while Britain tried to repair their existing ones.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I  think it's public record that the British didn't want to cripple Germany and actually reworked the compensation when its predication of default became reality. Can't talk about what the various internet forums recount is, but that's as I was taught.




What else did those British Colonial schools teaches you? Terra Nullius; White's Men Burden, and like Spieldberg's Amistad the British freed the slave colonies because slavery is bad and morally wrong and it also help disrupt the American economy and its emergence as a regional power?

But a clever rebuttal though... internet forums, haha


----------



## Macquack

Luutzu, love your work bro.

Especially, the link to Bob Dylan's "Masters of War", so apt.


----------



## orr

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting how both Germany and Japan both came back from devastation faster than Britain because they rebuilt industries from scratch while Britain tried to repair their existing ones.




Try thinking about it this way Rumpy; that those two countries, Germany Japan  were the Wests 'sandbags' on the USSR.


----------



## basilio

orr said:


> Try thinking about it this way Rumpy; that those two countries, Germany Japan  were the Wests 'sandbags' on the USSR.




Astute observation Orr.  That was certainly a major reason behind the support for the rebuilding of these counties.
Another point worth considering was the relatively small defence bill they had for the 50's and 60's .

But of course they had a huge restoration program


----------



## wayneL

Get a room guys!


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> Luutzu, love your work bro.
> 
> Especially, the link to Bob Dylan's "Masters of War", so apt.




Was painting a rusted iron gate and got YouTube on 

Maybe because I haven't been following but i don't notice much protest songs, or anti-war songs recently. Pretty sure there are I guess, every generation tend to have a few true artist who read the news a bit. But yea, quite amazing that Australia is involved in three wars at the moment and there's not much coverage of it beside we're sending troops there and that's it.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Get a room guys!




Feeling left out Sifu?

There's always me for bantering - I don't do rooming. No Taoist secret manuscript will convince me otherwise.


----------



## Knobby22

From Mish -this is my view also.

“Donald Trump’s shocking transformation from reality-show host to Republican presidential front-runner is not some random and bizarre twist of fate. It grows from the failure of our political system to adapt to demographic change, economic disruption and a reorganizing world.

Trump’s victory Saturday in the South Carolina primary appears to have cleared away the cobwebs of denial.

Rubio promises an aggressively interventionist foreign policy of the kind that gave us more than a decade of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Cruz pledges to double down on failed economic policies — deregulation, tax cuts, tight money — and turn back the clock on social changes such as same-sex marriage. Neither offers much that sounds new or promising.

So it should be no surprise that substantial numbers of Republicans are seduced by Trump, who proposes knocking the house down and starting over. His demagoguery succeeds not just because of his fame and charisma. In sometimes appalling ways, he addresses the hopes and fears of much of the Republican base.

His pledge to build a physical wall along the border with Mexico hits a nerve with white voters worried about the “browning” of the nation. His disparagement of free-trade agreements gives hope to blue-collar workers left behind by the flight of manufacturing jobs. His advocacy of restraint in the deployment of U.S. troops, even with the Middle East in flames, draws nods from war-weary military families and veterans.

And Trump’s diagnosis of what is wrong with our politics — that the politicians are bought and paid for by special interests — is essentially correct. His supporters may disapprove of his extreme rhetoric, some of which is racially tinged, but still appreciate the fact that he is beholden to no one.


....and don't forget Clinton is bought and paid for also. Lots of Republican money going to her now. 
The American's are sick of it. Trump has a good chance of becoming President - scary as that is.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

The Donald will take the USA out of the politically correct stagnation that has beset it since the time of Reagan. 

I hope that Bernie Sanders gets the Democrat nomination, as a contest between them would enable the people to decide for once, which way to go, either to the right or to the left. 

A win for either one would not much bother me. 

As long as none of the mob of hereditary and party machine candidates get nominated by their parties for election of POTUS.

gg


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> From Mish -this is my view also.
> 
> “Donald Trump’s shocking transformation from reality-show host to Republican presidential front-runner is not some random and bizarre twist of fate. It grows from the failure of our political system to adapt to demographic change, economic disruption and a reorganizing world.
> 
> Trump’s victory Saturday in the South Carolina primary appears to have cleared away the cobwebs of denial.
> 
> Rubio promises an aggressively interventionist foreign policy of the kind that gave us more than a decade of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Cruz pledges to double down on failed economic policies ”” deregulation, tax cuts, tight money ”” and turn back the clock on social changes such as same-sex marriage. Neither offers much that sounds new or promising.
> 
> So it should be no surprise that substantial numbers of Republicans are seduced by Trump, who proposes knocking the house down and starting over. His demagoguery succeeds not just because of his fame and charisma. In sometimes appalling ways, he addresses the hopes and fears of much of the Republican base.
> 
> His pledge to build a physical wall along the border with Mexico hits a nerve with white voters worried about the “browning” of the nation. His disparagement of free-trade agreements gives hope to blue-collar workers left behind by the flight of manufacturing jobs. His advocacy of restraint in the deployment of U.S. troops, even with the Middle East in flames, draws nods from war-weary military families and veterans.
> 
> And Trump’s diagnosis of what is wrong with our politics ”” that the politicians are bought and paid for by special interests ”” is essentially correct. His supporters may disapprove of his extreme rhetoric, some of which is racially tinged, but still appreciate the fact that he is beholden to no one.
> 
> 
> ....and don't forget Clinton is bought and paid for also. Lots of Republican money going to her now.
> The American's are sick of it. Trump has a good chance of becoming President - scary as that is.



I fully agree with you; This is a failure of politicians which can be seen all over the world on both side of the established left/right parties;
And we probably also need a Donald Trump here in Australia;
And not only one used as a scare crow, one who actually takes power and shake the status quo;
this will happen in Europe with the massive immigrant invasion backslash, is happening in the US, the tea party was a precursor
It will be scary and potentially very dangerous but may be the only chance to clear the board and reestablish democracy:
away from PC, corruption and special interest lobbies/self interest;
 having government which will be representative and lean.
I thought the GFC would have done it, it ended worse with trillions printed to favor these lobbies.

But  I am afraid we may not have a DT here and as usual, Australia will be 20y behind and carry on repeating the actions done and tried elsewhere , ending in failure but still hoping for a different outcome....
While still exposed to the danger that trend represents...

Who/where can we find our D.T. (and to be fair to the left side, the "moron" could also come from Labour, as I expect both extreme to merge nicely)
a nice CFMEU/P.Hanson hybrid would do the job...Any suggestion, Should i go into politics?


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> From Mish -this is my view also.
> 
> “Donald Trump’s shocking transformation from reality-show host to Republican presidential front-runner is not some random and bizarre twist of fate. It grows from the failure of our political system to adapt to demographic change, economic disruption and a reorganizing world.
> 
> Trump’s victory Saturday in the South Carolina primary appears to have cleared away the cobwebs of denial...
> 
> ...So it should be no surprise that substantial numbers of Republicans are seduced by Trump, who proposes knocking the house down and starting over. His demagoguery succeeds not just because of his fame and charisma. In sometimes appalling ways, he addresses the hopes and fears of much of the Republican base...
> 
> ...And Trump’s diagnosis of what is wrong with our politics ”” that the politicians are bought and paid for by special interests ”” is essentially correct. His supporters may disapprove of his extreme rhetoric, some of which is racially tinged, but still appreciate the fact that he is beholden to no one.
> ....and don't forget Clinton is bought and paid for also. Lots of Republican money going to her now.
> 
> The American's are sick of it. Trump has a good chance of becoming President - scary as that is.



I have a lot of sympathy with that point of view. If The Donald is something of an emetic for an entrenched political  establishment, then so be it.

The Donald is only fractionally more scary that Hillary Clinton, who you wouldn't trust to buy the weekly Lotto tickets.


----------



## basilio

Why ware Donald Trump (and Bernie Sanders) winning so much support ?  A number of commentators are looking at the anger many, many people in US .



> *Why angry Americans are tempted by Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders*
> 
> 
> ......This doesn't mean Trump is the inevitable victor. It does mean  this  campaign is like no other in recent history. Trump has broken every rule, shattered every convention, yet confounded every expert prediction that he would implode. And this tells us that the US itself is in a condition like no other we've seen.
> Donald Trump with his family at a South Carolina primary night rally on Saturday.
> 
> The other telltale is what's happening on the other side of US politics, the Democratic one. Trump's Democrat analogue, Bernie Sanders, is enjoying a similarly flabbergasting success. He was long derided as an unreconstructed socialist in America, and almost unheard of outside it.
> 
> He's not the Democrat frontrunner, but he's not far behind. In the Nevada caucuses on the weekend, he won just 5 per cent fewer votes than Hillary Clinton, a former US secretary of state and first lady.
> 
> But how can Bernie Sanders be Trump's analogue? There are obvious differences. Trump, billionaire property tycoon, claims to be a hyper-capitalist. Sanders is a self-described democratic socialist.
> 
> Yet it's "what they have in common that's made them the men with the momentum" says the Chicago Tribune's Kathleen Hennessey.
> *
> They are both old, white men, the most unfashionable social group in the developed world today. They are raw and angry, utterly unlike the closely scripted, well manicured political mannequins typically sent out from central casting. *
> 
> And it's the anger that is the shared, defining characteristic of both. As John Leland reported in The New York Times a few weeks ago: "Trump and Sanders voters are the likeliest among their parties to be 'angry' at Washington, according to the Times/CBS News poll, with 52 per cent of Trump backers and 30 per cent of Sanders backers identifying that way.
> *
> "Anger has risen steadily since 2010 among both Democrats and Republicans," Leland wrote, "and their anger appears to be one factor sweeping Mr Trump and Mr Sanders from the relative margins to the top of many polls."*
> 
> How much anger is there in the US today? Seven Americans out of ten say they're very angry or somewhat angry about "the way things are going" in the US, according to a CNN-ORC poll from December.
> 
> What are they angry about? The same proportion, seven in 10, say they're angry because the  system "seems to only be working for the insiders with money and power, like those on Wall Street or in Washington," according to an NBS-Wall Street Journal poll from November.
> 
> Sanders concentrates his anger on Wall Street, while Trump aims his at Washington. Belonging to a much-derided social group presumably lends some authenticity to their outsider status.
> 
> Trump is appealing to be the fury-in-chief. He claims that he is "very, very angry" and will "gladly accept the mantle of anger". Sanders is so angry that he daily calls for a "political revolution", no less.
> 
> If the people are so angry at the status quo, can it be a surprise that they are resisting swallowing, once more, the two political dynasties that have dominated the last quarter-century of US politics?
> 
> Between George H. W. Bush, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, those two families have occupied the White House for 20 of the past 27 years. And Americans are refusing to meekly re-endorse them, with Jeb Bush now gone and Hillary Clinton struggling to hold off the Sanders insurrection.
> 
> "America's political class is only beginning to grasp the depth of the anti-establishment mood that is gripping the US," observes Gideon Rachman in the Financial Times this month. "Almost eight years after the financial crisis, this mood seems to be growing in strength, not weakening. President Barack Obama's announcement last week that the US unemployment rate is now below 5 per cent barely registered on the campaign trail.
> 
> *"Instead, all the talk is of students reeling under unpayable debts; and of parents having to work at two or three low-paid jobs to make ends meet. The idea that the economy is 'rigged' in favour of insiders is now embraced, in some form, by most of the candidates in both the Republican and Democratic parties."*
> 
> The "most fundamental source" of discontent is economic, according to a Brookings Institution expert, William Galston. Middle American incomes have been stagnant for a decade and a half.
> 
> Shockingly, life expectancy has actually fallen for Americans with low education levels, by four years or 5 per cent. And it happened with startling speed, between 1990 and 2008, according to Jay Olshansky of Illinois University.
> 
> Meanwhile, the US financial system – "Wall Street" – that is blamed for the colossal economic collapse of 2008-9 in a frenzy of greed and fraud is seen to be unpunished. Not one Wall Street executive has been jailed for fraud.
> 
> So what appears to many Australians to be an inexplicable fit of American madness is actually pretty rational. If Australia had the same problems, we might have the same reaction.
> 
> Americans' financial frustration then begets the quest for someone to blame. This is where Trump and Sanders handily supply the scapegoats.
> 
> *The other important feature they share is aptly described by the Washington Post's conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer: "Let the others propose carefully budgeted five-point plans. Sanders and Trump offer magic."
> *
> They do not offer serious solutions, but the force of their public support means that we have to take them seriously nonetheless.




http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-a...trump-and-bernie-sanders-20160222-gn0ig9.html


----------



## wayneL

Good article baz.  See what happens when you venture away from the Grauniad? Decent articles.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Good article baz.  See what happens when you venture away from the Grauniad? Decent articles.




 Yes it was a good article.  Would you like to see what The Guardian  writers had to say about the topic ?  Is it possible that most political observers have recognised what is driving Trump and Sanders supporters ? 



> *Trump's victories aren't mysterious if you understand why people are angry
> Jeb Lund*
> 
> ....And though establishment toffs like to issue signifying snorts about Trump voters being predominantly “poorly educated”, in the minutes after the caucus even CNN started to come around to the most elusive explanation: Trump’s popularity isn’t about his supporters’ education, their religion or the policies they’d like to see enacted. *Trump is popular because of his supporters’ anger*.




http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/24/donald-trump-victory-nevada-caucus-voter-anger


----------



## basilio

And for another take on the rise and rise of Trump and Sanders.



> * Trump and Sanders: The Political Parasites of 2016
> *
> By Jack Shafer
> 
> February 24, 2016
> 
> 
> Think of the Republican Party as a host organism that has only now discovered the parasite it acquired eight months ago. The parasite, of course, is Donald J. Trump””no more a Republican than I””who has inserted himself into the party and appears to be on his way to winning its presidential nomination. Feeding on the Republican Party’s primary and caucus process, the Trump parasite has progressed from egg to larva and has now commandeered many of the Republican Party’s metabolic functions. But it’s been managed growth, as the smart-thinking parasite likes to keep its zombie host alive long enough to develop into the next stage and lay its own eggs and begin the process anew.
> 
> Trump isn’t the only political parasite on the hustings this season. Bernie Sanders, who never ran as a Democrat before this election, has likewise attempted to colonize the gastrointestinal tract of a major party in hopes that it will eventually deposit him at the White House.




http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/donald-trump-bernie-sanders-parasites-213676


----------



## Knobby22

lol. Great posts. (that last one was a bit gruesome.

Qldfrog into politics -yea why not?


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> lol. Great posts. (that last one was a bit gruesome.
> 
> Qldfrog into politics -yea why not?




Luutzu would flee in horror


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> Luutzu would flee in horror




I'd vote for you - if I weren't also be running for office too if you do 

I have watch and heard Trump, and you my Queensland friend, is no Donald Trump (that was a compliment).

But until you and I need to get off our behind to save Australia, Australians do not need us and our awesomeness.

The rights, freedom and foundation for secular democratic values are so strong here that if enough Australian simply protests and unite enough, they will change the course of its history and politics no matter who is in power.

But if we start to blame this or that sub-group among us; get into too much debt and getting too busy to bother or know we're being led astray... well we get what we deserve right?

I mean, the people before us managed to redefine "free men" as all men and women (as opposed to meaning just the nobility) and thereby take the "rights" and freedom the Magna Carta gave to only the imbreds - imagine what the people could demand of their gov't now if only they take a break from the barbie and the footy and the hating of the Muslims or something.

Anyway, getting off the soapbox and go have a beer now. Long day today.


----------



## DB008

I agree with some of Trumps points and Bernie's too.

Clinton - no


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Yes it was a good article.  Would you like to see what The Guardian  writers had to say about the topic ?  Is it possible that most political observers have recognised what is driving Trump and Sanders supporters ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/24/donald-trump-victory-nevada-caucus-voter-anger




Look at the dates, it took the Guardianista 2 whole days to alter the article enough not to be accused of plagiarism.


----------



## basilio

More to note about what Donald Trump wants to see happen if he is Prezz.



> * Donald Trump pledges to curb press freedom through libel laws*
> 
> The Republican frontrunner has cast a pall over the first amendment by vowing to ‘open up our libel laws’ to punish publication of ‘purposely negative stories’
> Donald Trump wants to change the US libel laws so that ‘when the New York Times or the Washington Post writes a hit piece, we can sue them’.
> 
> Ben Jacobs
> @Bencjacobs
> 
> Saturday 27 February 2016 07.44 AEDT
> 
> 
> Donald Trump has pledged to change the libel laws in a way that could undermine the first amendment and the freedom of the press.
> 
> Speaking at a rally in Fort Worth, Texas, on Friday, shortly after accepting an endorsement from New Jersey governor Chris Christie, Trump pledged if elected president to “open up our libel laws so when [newspapers] write purposely negative stories … we can sue them and make lots of money”.
> 
> This move, he said, would mean that “when the New York Times or the Washington Post writes a hit piece, we can sue them”.
> 
> Since the American revolution, freedom of the press has been a key principle in American public life, with truth long established as an absolute defense to any accusation of libel.
> 
> The first amendment states that “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press”. It is a foundation stone of democracy in the United States.
> 
> This was most recently asserted by the supreme court in 1964, in a unanimous decision in New York Times v Sullivan. The court held that any public figure suing for libel must prove that a defamatory statement was made with actual malice, “with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not”.
> 
> Trump seems intent on making US libel law more like the far more oppressive free-speech laws in the UK. There, the burden is on the defendant to prove the truth of every statement made. A plaintiff does not need to show any actual harm.
> 
> In the US, the burden is on the plaintiff. Under New York Times v Sullivan, a plaintiff must show actual malice as well.
> 
> Asked on Friday if the candidate thought the supreme court case had been decided wrongly, the Trump campaign did not immediately respond.
> 
> A Trump administration could appoint supreme court justices pledged to undermine the first amendment. However, it is unlikely that any credible judge or legal scholar would endorse Trump’s views on the freedom of the press.
> 
> Trump has long had a tortured relationship with the media. Although he goes out of his way to seek publicity, he calls reporters out at his rallies, often by name, as “dishonest”.
> 
> He also has defended dictators like Vladimir Putin from accusations of killing journalists, saying there is no proof. Russia has one of the least free presses in the world. According to politifact.com, at least 34 journalists have been killed there since 2000.




http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...curb-press-freedom-libel-laws-first-amendment


----------



## basilio

Perhaps the first person who can be charged with libel should be Donald Trump.  Check this out



> *Donald Trump commits libel, then deletes it, THEN doubles down on it.
> This is what we call a 'teachable moment.'
> *
> By: Moe Lane (Diary)  |  February 3rd, 2016 at 10:00 AM  |  18
> 
> RESIZE: AAA
> 
> TrumpPOsterSmall
> 
> Recent Presidential front-runner* Donald Trump made the mistake of committing actual libel this morning. Specifically, he accused current Presidential front-runner Ted Cruz of illegally tampering with the Iowa caucus results. Here’s the screencap of the Tweet in question:




http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2016/02/03/donald-trump-conspiracy-theories-ted-cruz-libel/


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> More to note about what Donald Trump wants to see happen if he is Prezz.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...curb-press-freedom-libel-laws-first-amendment




Damn! You mean newspapers would be held account as to the truthfulness of their infotainment focused reportage. You mean they couldn't lie to further their political agenda?

What will the Guardian do?


----------



## Knobby22

I love watching Planet America.

On Firday they had a shocking stack.

Sonce 1920 the average ordinary poor USA male citizen has managed to live an extra two years.
The average rich male 19 years!!!

Hey if you can't afford to be treated you die. No wonder people are voting for Trump and Sanders.
Sanders wants to set up a Medicare systeem like Australia's... what a socialist!!


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> I love....
> 
> ... what a socialist!!




Yeah free everything...YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Yeah free everything...YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!




Saw some interview a week ago where the guy who initially wrote a tax bill that Bernie Sander now took onboard to fund his free tuition. And it seem like it could be paid for.

The tax would be on financial transaction/trading. It'll add something like 20% on the current transaction fee, or maybe a dollar or two per transaction.

This small amount will, after the estimated decline in financial trading, would bring in around $300Billion a year. So  not only could it pay for a less-burdened generation of student who might, because they do not owe up to some $150K plus market interest rate, may opt to do something useful with their career and life rather than any job that pay the highest... and it reduces financial speculation, encourage investing rather than trading etc. 

So of course it's not feasible.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> I love watching Planet America.
> 
> On Firday they had a shocking stack.
> 
> Sonce 1920 the average ordinary poor USA male citizen has managed to live an extra two years.
> The average rich male 19 years!!!
> 
> Hey if you can't afford to be treated you die. No wonder people are voting for Trump and Sanders.
> Sanders wants to set up a Medicare systeem like Australia's... what a socialist!!




Saw a recent Robert Reich YouTube blog where he said the current US system is one that basically hope and pray and then do a lot of things so that you do not get sick, at all, ever. So they all hope you don't get sick... but if you do, God help you.

From Chomsky, he said the US pay twice the per capita expense but receive the worst care in the developed economies. Wow.

----

A few years ago my father had a medical emergency while on holiday in VN. After seeing how a medical system that put money first really operate, I swear I just don't know how any "private"' system like the one in the US help anyone but the drug and medical industry. Any politician that think otherwise either have no clue, brain dead or is completely bought off.

Having read that Time expose' on the US medical system a few years back, it really shocked me how much similar that is to VN's screwed up system.

First, if you have no money, you pay up until you can't pay anymore and then you get kicked out when bills can't be paid or when you're about to die. Dying in the hospital is bad for their statistics, so they send you home a day or two before you die.

If you have money, the doctor and the hospital will keep you there - even if they can't treat you, have no doctor in the are who can treat you, have no equipment to treat you... they will not release you but keep you on fluid and on ice if they have to until you're about to die then they send you packing... but you got to pay first.

But if you're lucky enough to afford the bills, man the charge for every single item. It goes down to the last band aid. And often, they miscount and of course jack up the price a few times its market price, and order all the x-ray and scans you can afford; and daily blood tests for everything - three tubes a day to test.

Lucky dad pulled through - it has a lot to do with my aunty and her husband being well connected just to get him to a city hospital. But when we're in a proper hospital - it's the same "you have to stay (until you die or go broke)" mentality. I swear the only reason he managed to escape the hospital was, one, he got much better; two, it was New Year and a weekend so he have to lie, LIE, that he's all better and want some fresh air but will definitely be returning Monday for further tests and check up and see if he need to order a private Angel Flight (at $50,000 US dollars).

Lucky they were on a premium travel insurance policy... but after that, and after having to hand over brick and bricks of cash to the hospital each couple of days, I don't mind paying taxes or the medicare surcharge at all.

Shouldn't buy into these private enterprise and efficiency bs. It's just all a money grab and those who are most disadvantaged will just get further screwed. And for those who can afford it, we all pay either way - private or in taxes... better in everyway to pay it to the idiots in Canberra - they're less talented at screwing people out of care.


----------



## wayneL

It won't stop at healthcare, Grasshopper (Which I agree needs a total rethink in the US.... good luck with that.)

You missed the free >>>>everything<<<<. There will have to be nothing short of revolutionary change in US culture and economy for the US welfare state to be a reality, then it can be a western has been state like the rest of us.

Know any Mandarin?


----------



## wayneL

Anyway, a colleague of mine has crunched the numbers.

Bernie cannot beat Hillary, she will be Dem candidate.

Trump or Cruz cannot beat Hillary, should either win the nom.

Only Rubio can beat Hillary, but it would be very close.

That's the maths as it stands.

So basically we can fret about Hillary, rather than the Don or Bernie.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> It won't stop at healthcare, Grasshopper (Which I agree needs a total rethink in the US.... good luck with that.)




Exactly , "good luck with that..." no wonder the populace are so angry. They want change but they have to fight vested interests, some of the richest people in the world.


----------



## Bill M

luutzu said:


> Lucky they were on a premium travel insurance policy... but after that, and after having to hand over brick and bricks of cash to the hospital each couple of days, *I don't mind paying taxes or the medicare surcharge at all.
> *
> Shouldn't buy into these private enterprise and efficiency bs. It's just all a money grab and those who are most disadvantaged will just get further screwed. And for those who can afford it, we all pay either way - private or in taxes... better in everyway to pay it to the idiots in Canberra - they're less talented at screwing people out of care.




Me too, fully agree. It is interesting to note that the so called "best countries to live" or the "happiest countries to live" nearly always are the ones that have a state funded health scheme. USA is not one one of them.

I couldn't/wouldn't ever live in the USA and a national health system where *everybody* can get the best health care is my main reason.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Exactly , "good luck with that..." no wonder the populace are so angry. They want change but they have to fight vested interests, some of the richest people in the world.




If so, why are they about to vote in an arch establishment candidate in Hilarious Clinton?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> If so, why are they about to vote in an arch establishment candidate in Hilarious Clinton?




Or Donald Thump. He is also anti establishment but in a more simple way.

Because too many think they can't make a difference by voting, but you can smell the anger half a world away and unless it is addressed it will just keep building up. 

I listened to Radio Nationals Rear Vision show which was on Bernie and its pretty amazing how he has risen. He wasn't a Democrat at all until very recently. in his State he gets votes over 70% which is unheard of ...worth a listen. 

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/bernie-sanders/7188516


----------



## basilio

Il Duce  1925 / Il Douche  2015.

The latest Trumpism to emerge from the wreck of Americas political mayhem.


> @ilduce2016: “It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep.” – @realDonaldTrump #MakeAmericaGreatAgain"




Great stuff .  The Great trump quoting the Great Il Duce.

Maybe, maybe not.

Turns out he was expertly pranked by Gawker who had set up a special twitter account under the heading of Il Duce sprouting all sorts of great comments but attributing them to Donald Trump. Donald of course thought these were great and decided to quote them himself. After all it made him look good.



> *How We Fooled Donald Trump Into Retweeting Benito Mussolini *
> 
> Is Donald Trump a fascist? Experts, historians, and pundits have debated the question for months. One thing has been certain for a while now: He tweets like one. That’s why, last year, Gawker’s Ashley Feinberg created a Twitter bot that would post quotes from the writings and speeches of the Italian fascist dictator Benito Mussolini, but with all of them attributed to businessman and Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump. This morning, he retweeted that account.
> 
> ......Last year, we set a trap for Trump. We came up with the idea for that Mussolini bot under the assumption that Trump would retweet just about anything, no matter how dubious or vile the source, as long as it sounded like praise for himself. (It helps that that a number of Mussolini’s quotes sound plausibly like lines from Trump’s myriad books.) The account, @ilduce2016, was created by Gawker senior writer Ashley Feinberg and Gawker Media Editorial Labs director Adam Pash. It has tweeted solely at Donald Trump, multiple times a day, since December 2015.
> 
> Our Fascist bot was anything but subtle. It was, after all, directly named after Mussolini. The New York Times today swiftly recognized that it was a parody account. At the time of the account’s creation, Gawker Media Executive Editor John Cook expressed some concern that the joke behind the account was far too obvious, and wouldn’t trick anyone but a complete idiot.
> 
> Today, Donald Trump proved him—and all of us—right.




http://gawker.com/how-we-fooled-donald-trump-into-retweeting-benito-musso-1761795039


----------



## SirRumpole

Donald Trump refuses to reject endorsement from former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, retweets Mussolini quote



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...immediately-reject-former-kkkk-leader/7206790


----------



## Logique

For and Against arguments on debate.org



> *Would Hillary Clinton make a good President?*
> http://www.debate.org/opinions/would-hillary-clinton-make-a-good-president


----------



## wayneL

Just an off the wall thought bas, and in no way an endorsement of their ideology, but how do you think, we would view Mussolini quotes, or indeed Hitler, if they had won?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Just an off the wall thought bas, and in no way an endorsement of their ideology, but how do you think, we would view Mussolini quotes, or indeed Hitler, if they had won?




Win or lose, mad is mad.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Just an off the wall thought bas, and in no way an endorsement of their ideology, but how do you think, we would view Mussolini quotes, or indeed Hitler, if they had won?




Forgot if they won or not. Strip off any reference to who made the quote. In my view if any quote offers a great insight, a special perspective, something creative,  it's got value. I don't think I am that hung up on the name next to the quote. Why wouldn't Hitler or Mussolini make such a comment ?

With regard to Il Douche.  It's not hard to recognise that Donald Trump's political views are very far right. Retweeting  the Il Duce quote was his way of saying "I thought the guy made sense"


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> It won't stop at healthcare, Grasshopper (Which I agree needs a total rethink in the US.... good luck with that.)
> 
> You missed the free >>>>everything<<<<. There will have to be nothing short of revolutionary change in US culture and economy for the US welfare state to be a reality, then it can be a western has been state like the rest of us.
> 
> Know any Mandarin?




No one expects anything for free, not the American public I'm sure. Maybe their politicians, and maybe Hillary who think bankers and big businesses pay her and Bill a couple hundred thousands for a 40 minute speech because they want to hear wisdom and insight from a couple of geniuses like themselves.

So whether it's public education, or healthcare, or roads or power and utilities... no one expects them to be free of charge. What they ought to be is to be public owned and public operated. Not because it's socialism and communism or whatever, but because certain things are best done by gov't.

So in the US city of Detroit or Flint, water was privatised and the poor who could not afford to pay for water have it turned off. No drinking water to the elderly and the sick. Money talk for you there.

If American politicians does not change and revolutionise the way business is done over past four decades, they will have civil unrest and violent revolution. Just because it's America doesn't mean it won't happen; or just because it's a "democracy" and we're in a "modern age" doesn't mean it won't happen.

Napoleon rose after a few rebel overthrow King Louis right? He cleaned up the mess and put himself in charge and march his legions all over Europe too; Same with Hitler, he was elected in remember. Germany was a democracy somewhat too right?

It was only some 80 years ago that America was on the brink of another revolution. The New Deal Roosevelt managed to put in place saved it and changes the way America was run - free education, social safety nets, unions to protect workers rights etc. etc. All these are being dismantled under one pretext or another over past four decades.

And the result? A Great Recession that lasts 8 years and still going, heading into possibly another Great Recession... Maybe two continuous recession is a depression or we just play with words now?

Anyway, any way you look at the stats, the poor and the working class are being screwed and the rich are getting richer than ever - owning more assets and more national wealth than ever. That's a revolution waiting to happen. That's Imperial China, Imperial France, Imperial any place where the Nobility and the emperors and courtiers have their mansions and slaves while the rest will have to do with hopes and dreams and living paycheck to paycheck.

There's only so many protests and violence that can be blamed on black neighbourhood and southern rednecks and social deviant.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Anyway, a colleague of mine has crunched the numbers.
> 
> Bernie cannot beat Hillary, she will be Dem candidate.
> 
> Trump or Cruz cannot beat Hillary, should either win the nom.
> 
> Only Rubio can beat Hillary, but it would be very close.
> 
> That's the maths as it stands.
> 
> So basically we can fret about Hillary, rather than the Don or Bernie.




I think we're all surprised Sanders is still in the race. So he's doing great and really shifted Hillary to the more softer Hillary who care and feel more pain than the badazz Hillary she was going for.

With all the name recognition and money and machines behind her, she's still struggling to win. That just show how much people distrust her and how much Americans would rather not have this Dynastic line of the House of Clinton or the House o Bush.

The democratic machine is behind her, the billionaires are behind her, and with all them cash she's buying the media and their pretty looking mouthpiece. So she might win. But I wouldn't discount Sanders off as yet.


----------



## luutzu

Bill M said:


> Me too, fully agree. It is interesting to note that the so called "best countries to live" or the "happiest countries to live" nearly always are the ones that have a state funded health scheme. USA is not one one of them.
> 
> I couldn't/wouldn't ever live in the USA and a national health system where *everybody* can get the best health care is my main reason.




I was really suprise when I saw Michael Moore's Sicko. I thought America would have had a universal healthcare like ours or better. Who wouldn't right? More efficient, lower cost per capita, and we all get cover when we need it.

But yea, I really don't know why Australians want to pay for private health insurance. I mean it reduces their surcharge and they get a private room or something... but for me personally I just pay the surcharge knowing that even though I don't need it, I might one day... and if I don't use medical care during the year the money goes to help other who needs it. That's much better than it going to some insurance company.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Just an off the wall thought bas, and in no way an endorsement of their ideology, but how do you think, we would view Mussolini quotes, or indeed Hitler, if they had won?




Same way we view some of the crazy stuff some of our "intellectual" and "leader" say sometime - we believe it and see nothing wrong with it.

That's what public information and education is for right?

So Nazi taking over Eastern Europe and install their puppets... evil Nazi scums. We on the other hand, we liberated and do good wherever our boots landed - just sometime a few bad apples among our ranks meeting a whole lot of ingrates barbarians.

When Imperial Japan took over Asia/Pacific... it wasn't done for themselves. It was done to liberate Asians from European colonialism; was done too to enlightened the Asians and other sick men of Asia - bringing them into the light and all that flary Sun rays.


----------



## Wysiwyg

This is the ultimate (un)reality show. The commentators and politicians are in damage control after Frump (every trash talker deserves a good trashing ) received unexpected preference among voters who I assume want to see this election farce extend further. This farce either reflects sick humour or a sick society. I lean toward the former 'cause surely that many people can't be blind. 

Oh so much B.S. in the world.


----------



## SirRumpole

Republican Party in suicidal tailspin over Donald Trump's unstoppable rise

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...pable-rise-20160305-gnblu2.html#ixzz4265Fc9Ul


----------



## basilio

The latest Trump masterpiece is engaging his Florida audience in a mass promise to vote for him.  Complete with raised arms.  Shades of Der Fuhrer  and il Duce.

Does anyone else remember the iconic  song in Cabaret which heralded the rise of the Reich ?




> In an eerie evocation of fascist rallies the world might have thought had been consigned to history, leading Republican presidential contender Donald Trump demanded that thousands at a rowdy Saturday rally in Florida should swear they would vote for him – "no matter what."
> 
> "Let's do a pledge. Who likes me in this room," Trump demanded, between interruptions as protesters were manhandled out of the rally. He raised his hand as a court witness might.
> 
> But, recreating images that became hallmarks of Italian Fascist and German Nazi rallies and watched by the cameras of the world's media, the crowd then stretched their right arms much as followers of Hitler and Mussolini did.
> 
> Performing as in a grainy Movitone News clip, most in the crowd held their right arms outstretched at an angle while Trump demanded again, "I've never done this before. Can I have a pledge? A swearing? Raise your right hand."
> 
> He then led the crowd: "I do solemnly swear that I, no matter how I feel, no matter what the conditions, if there are hurricanes or whatever, will vote on or before the 12th for Donald J Trump for president.
> 
> "Thank you. Now I know. Don't forget you all raised your hands. You swore. Bad things happen if you don't live up to what you just did,"



http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...-trumps-unstoppable-rise-20160305-gnblu2.html


____________________________________________

USA,  USA,  USA,  USA,  USA,


----------



## moXJO

It will be interesting to see what happens if he gets in. 
I think Obama and his limpwristed attitude towards Putin, the middle east and China  firmed the idea in many Americans minds they needed a strongman. 
People are sick of pandering to every pc complaint. Putin  is loved, yet everyone turns a blind eye to that because- well it's Russia.
 So when a guy comes in and starts sprouting "We are America we do what the fcuk we want" it's appealing to that inner patriotic yank emotion of "we shouldn't be taking siht from anyone".
He is all smoke and mirrors though. 
It's a shame. America once had some of the greatest leaders in history. Brilliant minds and men of action. What the hell happened?


----------



## basilio

Got a bit fascinated by the "Tomorrow belongs to me " theme.  Came across a brilliant parody of the song on a Spitting Images program in 1987.

Enjoy.  Just waiting to see another version with the Drumph


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens if he gets in.
> I think Obama and his limpwristed attitude towards Putin, the middle east and China  firmed the idea in many Americans minds they needed a strongman.
> People are sick of pandering to every pc complaint. Putin  is loved, yet everyone turns a blind eye to that because- well it's Russia.
> So when a guy comes in and starts sprouting "We are America we do what the fcuk we want" it's appealing to that inner patriotic yank emotion of "we shouldn't be taking siht from anyone".
> He is all smoke and mirrors though.
> It's a shame. America once had some of the greatest leaders in history. Brilliant minds and men of action. What the hell happened?




That's the unfortunate thing, that America is doing exactly what it wants but most Americans does not realised it.

Example, America thought to "free" a few countries from its evil dictators and most Americans (and the Western world) seem to think that that's noble, but it's a bit wasteful... sholdn't be kind like that;

Then when American corporations thought to have their politicians do "free trade" deals and tax incentives that offshore jobs and create markets that totally destroy other countries' economies... Americans are saying that the Mexicans and the Chinese are taking their jobs away.

So of course politicians can't blame themselves and won't be blaming corporations for all these master plans that create job insecurity for those that have it and poverty or close to it for those that don't... It's the migrants and coloured folks' fault... that and American love of freedom and liberty and weakness to do good for ungrateful Muslims.

Since most thinking politicians can't really say stuff like this with a straight face, it'll take an idiot and psychotic liar like Trump to spout it most convincingly. So dam Mexicans... stop them invading by building a big great wall. Why not? Dam Muslim terrorists, water boarding is just the start, says Trump, he'll do a lot more than that, he said. 

Can't remember what else he want to do to fix the US economy... he'll probably "take on" Wall St next.


----------



## Junior

For those who haven't read it yet, see below, Louis CK (comedian) emailed this anti-Trump rant to his mailing list.




> P.S.  Please stop it with voting for Trump. It was funny for a little while. But the guy is Hitler. And by that I mean that we are being Germany in the 30s. Do you think they saw the **** coming? Hitler was just some hilarious and refreshing dude with a weird comb over who would say anything at all.
> 
> And I'm not advocating for Hillary or Bernie. I like them both but frankly I wish the next president was a conservative only because we had Obama for eight years and we need balance. And not because I particularly enjoy the conservative agenda. I just think the government should reflect the people. And we are about 40 percent conservative and 40 percent liberal. When I was growing up and when I was a younger man, liberals and conservatives were friends with differences. They weren’t enemies. And it always made sense that everyone gets a president they like for a while and then hates the president for a while. But it only works if the conservatives put up a good candidate. A good smart conservative to face the liberal candidate so they can have a good argument and the country can decide which way to go this time.
> 
> Trump is not that. He's an insane bigot. He is dangerous.
> 
> He already said he would expand libel laws to sue anyone who "writes a negative hit piece" about him. He says "I would open up the libel laws so we can sue them and win lots of money. Not like now. These guys are totally protected." He said that. He has promised to decimate the first amendment. (If you think he’s going to keep the second amendment intact you’re delusional.) And he said that Paul Ryan, speaker of the house will "pay" for criticizing him. So I'm saying this now because if he gets in there we won't be able to criticize him anymore.
> Please pick someone else. Like John Kasich. I mean that guy seems okay. I don't like any of them myself but if you're that kind of voter please go for a guy like that. It feels like between him and either democrat we'd have a decent choice. It feels like a healthier choice. We shouldn't have to vote for someone because they're not a shocking c*nt billionaire liar.
> 
> We should choose based on what direction the country should go.
> 
> I get that all these people sound like bull**** soft criminal opportunists. The whole game feels rigged and it's not going anywhere but down anymore. I feel that way sometimes.
> 
> And that voting for Trump is a way of saying "**** it. **** them all". I really get it. It's a version of national Suicide. Or it's like a big hit off of a crack pipe. Somehow we can't help it. Or we know that if we vote for Trump our phones will be a reliable source of dopamine for the next four years. I mean I can't wait to read about Trump every day. It's a rush. But you have to know this is not healthy.
> 
> If you are a true conservative. Don't vote for Trump. He is not one of you. He is one of him. Everything you have heard him say that you liked, if you look hard enough you will see that he one day said the exact opposite. He is playing you.
> 
> In fact, if you do vote for Trump, at least look at him very carefully first. You owe that to the rest of us. Know and understand who he is. Spend one hour on google and just read it all. I don’t mean listen to me or listen to liberals who put him down. Listen to your own people. Listen to John Mccain. Go look at what he just said about Trump. "At a time when our world has never been more complex or more in danger... I want Republican voters to pay close attention to what our party's most respected and knowledgeable leaders and national security experts are saying about Mr. Trump, and to think long and hard about who they want to be our next Commander-in-Chief and leader of the free world.”
> 
> When Trump was told what he said, Trump said "Oh, he did? Well, that's not nice," he told CBS News' chief White House correspondent Major Garrett. "He has to be very careful."
> When pressed on why, Trump tacked on: "He'll find out.”
> (I cut and pasted that from CBS news)
> 
> Do you really want a guy to be president who threatens John McCain? Because John McCain cautiously and intelligently asked for people to be thoughtful before voting for him? He didn’t even insult Trump. He just asked you to take a good look. And Trump told him to look out.
> 
> Remember that Trump entered this race by saying that McCain is not a war hero. A guy who was shot down, body broken and kept in a POW camp for years. Trump said “I prefer the guys who don’t get caught.” Why did he say that? Not because he meant it or because it was important to say. He said it because he’s a bully and every bully knows that when you enter a new school yard, you go to the toughest most respected guy on the yard and you punch him in the nose. If you are still standing after, you’re the new boss. If Trump is president, he’s not going to change. He’s not going to do anything for you. He’s going to do everything for himself and leave you in the dust.
> 
> So please listen to fellow conservatives. But more importantly, listen to Trump. Listen to all of it. Everything he says. If you liked when he said that “torture works” then go look at where he took it back the next day. He’s a ****ing liar.
> 
> A vote for Trump is so clearly a gut-vote, and again I get it. But add a little brain to it and look the guy up. Because if you vote for him because of how you feel right now, the minute he's president, you're going to regret it. You're going to regret it even more when he gives the job to his son. Because American democracy is broken enough that a guy like that could really **** things up. That's how Hitler got there. He was voted into power by a fatigued nation and when he got inside, he did all his Hitler things and no one could stop him.
> 
> Again, I’m not saying vote democrat or vote for anyone else. If Hilary ends up president it should be because she faced the best person you have and you and I both chose her or him or whoever. Trump is not your best. He’s the worst of all of us. He’s a symptom to a problem that is very real. But don’t vote for your own cancer. You’re better than that.
> 
> That's just my view. At least right now. I know I’m not qualified or particularly educated and I'm not right instead of you. I’m an idiot and I'm sure a bunch of you are very annoyed by this. ****ing celebrity with an opinion. I swear this isn’t really a political opinion. You don’t want to know my political opinions.   (And I know that I’m only bringing myself trouble with this ****.) Trump has nothing to do with politics or ideology. He has to do with himself. And really I don't mean to insult anyone. Except Trump. I mean to insult him very much. And really I’m not saying he’s evil or a monster. In fact I don’t think Hitler was. The problem with saying that guys like that are monsters is that we don’t see them coming when they turn out to be human, which they all are. Everyone is. Trump is a messed up guy with a hole in his heart that he tries to fill with money and attention. He can never ever have enough of either and he’ll never stop trying. He’s sick. Which makes him really really interesting. And he pulls you towards him which somehow feels good or fascinatingly bad. He’s not a monster. He’s a sad man. But all this makes him horribly dangerous if he becomes president. Give him another TV show. Let him pay to put his name on buildings. But please stop voting for him. And please watch Horace and Pete.


----------



## McLovin

Decent read...



> Let’s be clear: Trump is no fluke. Nor is he hijacking the Republican Party or the conservative movement, if there is such a thing. He is, rather, the party’s creation, its Frankenstein’s monster, brought to life by the party, fed by the party and now made strong enough to destroy its maker. Was it not the party’s wild obstructionism — the repeated threats to shut down the government over policy and legislative disagreements, the persistent calls for nullification of Supreme Court decisions, the insistence that compromise was betrayal, the internal coups against party leaders who refused to join the general demolition — that taught Republican voters that government, institutions, political traditions, party leadership and even parties themselves were things to be overthrown, evaded, ignored, insulted, laughed at? Was it not Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.), among others, who set this tone and thereby cleared the way for someone even more irreverent, so that now, in a most unenjoyable irony, Cruz, along with the rest of the party, must fall to the purer version of himself, a less ideologically encumbered anarcho-revolutionary? This would not be the first revolution that devoured itself.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...443f28-dbc1-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html

There are two things happening, imo. The first is what is described in that article. The second is how angry white working class Americans are. The latter is clearly a corollary of the former to some extent, but the GOP has also had a weird symbiotic relationship with poor, uneducated whites since at least Reagan. These same poor, uneducated whites have voted for a party that is socially conservative, Christian, and, importantly, white. But that has rolled back the social safety net, while cutting taxes for the rich, allowing mass migration from Mexico virtually unchecked, and pursuing trade agreements that have gutted manufacturing jobs. They don't really understand the world has changed, and they have all the pragmatism of a people whose formative years were spent when America was at the top of global prestige. That is why they can be easily won over with "make America great again". If only it were that simple.

Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are the end result of a population that has seen its wealth be slowly eroded. They're more similar than disimilar, imo.


----------



## Tisme




----------



## luutzu

Trump and his penis. Presidential debate just got smaller.

Oliver: US presidential race, aka Clown-town f the world show 2016. haha, ahhh, dam.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Trump and his penis. Presidential debate just got smaller.




Three times the length of your thumb ....... now I have your attention .... luutzu...... luutzu .......LUUTZU !! put the ruler down and gather your composure.


----------



## Logique

Size of the foot wasn't it, for a swimmer. 

Now let's see..just get the ruler and...


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> Size of the foot wasn't it, for a swimmer.
> 
> Now let's see..just get the ruler and...




Errol Flynn's was 11 inches if that's any help.

:bazooka:


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Three times the length of your thumb ....... now I have your attention .... luutzu...... luutzu .......LUUTZU !! put the ruler down and gather your composure.




wahhh...? I wasn't measuring. Was looking down at the keyboard to make sure my thick massive thumb doesn't hit the wrong keys. 

wait, did you just got me to talk about my well endowed manhood? Dam it McGill. But ey, I'm not running for president alright?


----------



## Knobby22

Massive PAC money spent on saturation advertising combined with Mitt Romney has done nothing to hurt Trump.
38% in Michigan, 50%! in Mississippi. I think we are looking at the next Republican nominee.

Trump: "I want to thank the special interests and the lobbyists," Trump says to laughter. "They obviously did something to drive these numbers."


----------



## basilio

*Making up your bull xxxx on the go*

One of the signs of a brilliant sociopath is being able to lie so convincingly that you can convince your wife you havn't been unfaithful when caught xxxx deep into your girlfriend. Dear Drumph has surpassed all such standards with his recent utterances.



> * And the fact checkers wept: how Donald Trump's use of language defies all conventions*
> Paul McGeough March 11 2016 - 12:35PM
> 
> Paul McGeough
> Follow
> 
> If this was a businessman simply blathering about his wares, Trump might be excused.
> 
> But it wasn't, which is what makes Trump's performance so breathtaking. An artful sleight of hand, this was Trump's considered response to a savage attack days earlier, when GOP grandee and former presidential hopeful Mitt Romney denounced the New York billionaire  as a failed businessman – "a phoney ... a fraud".
> 
> Piles of bottled water, bloodied raw steaks, wine and magazines were displayed to refute Romney's claim that Trump Water, Trump Steaks, Trump Wine and Trump magazine were embarrassing failures for the candidate who claims to be a businessman with the Midas touch.
> 
> Trump's water company is defunct – what he brandished in Florida on Tuesday was water from a non-related Connecticut bottler, who specialises in personalised or private labels on bulk orders.
> 
> The meat? Trump Steaks last sold in Sharper Image outlets across the US in 2007. What Trump displayed was the produce of Bush Brothers, a non-Trump entity. The candidate didn't even have the manners or the smarts to remove the Bush Brothers labels from the slabs of meat.
> 
> And the wine? Trump's son, Eric, is named as the president of Trump Winery. But online, there is this terse disclaimer: "Trump Winery is a registered trade name of Eric Trump Wine Manufacturing LLC, which is not owned, managed, or affiliated with Donald J Trump, the Trump Organisation or any of their affiliates."
> 
> The magazine was a quarterly that folded in 2009. When Trump threw a magazine to someone in Tuesday's crowd, it was a copy of The Jewel of Palm Beach, which is offered to guests at Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida.




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...e-defies-all-conventions-20160310-gng93u.html

...and story gets better.  check it out


----------



## qldfrog

So good at BS: I nearly admire him, and being the best in that area very logically lead to being politician number one;
Trump is the direct result of politicians action (and absence of action, education spending especially) in the US.
They got their dum easy to manipulate electorate, but now the sheeps are angry and want blood after too many shearing seasons...THAt was not part of the plan.
Do not worry, it will not happen in Australia as long as we have beer, increasing RE (who wants to be a millionnaire for everyone), renovation/eality shows and AFL.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *Making up your bull xxxx on the go*
> 
> One of the signs of a brilliant sociopath is being able to lie so convincingly that you can convince your wife you havn't been unfaithful when caught xxxx deep into your girlfriend. Dear Drumph has surpassed all such standards with his recent utterances.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...e-defies-all-conventions-20160310-gng93u.html
> 
> ...and story gets better.  check it out




Watched Last Week's Tonight with John Oliver on Drumpf and yea, this guy just blather off lies and bs so convincingly the guy he lied about have to double check if Drumpf is right or he really did what the donald said he did.

Natural born politician this guy.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> So good at BS: I nearly admire him, and being the best in that area very logically lead to being politician number one;
> Trump is the direct result of politicians action (and absence of action, education spending especially) in the US.
> They got their dum easy to manipulate electorate, but now the sheeps are angry and want blood after too many shearing seasons...THAt was not part of the plan.
> Do not worry, it will not happen in Australia as long as we have beer, increasing RE (who wants to be a millionnaire for everyone), renovation/eality shows and AFL.




Did I just agree with almost all of that up there? Dam. Must be the weather.


----------



## qldfrog

luutzu said:


> Did I just agree with almost all of that up there? Dam. Must be the weather.



Arrrrghh I must be sick , the flu or something...Have a nice week end


----------



## SirRumpole

Sees some people are getting worried about the possibility of a Trump win.

Donald Trump cancels Chicago campaign rally over security concerns



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-12/donald-trump-cancels-chicago-rally-amid-protests/7242108


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Sees some people are getting worried about the possibility of a Trump win.
> 
> Donald Trump cancels Chicago campaign rally over security concerns
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-12/donald-trump-cancels-chicago-rally-amid-protests/7242108




The leftists, show once again they are only tolerant if you agree with them


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> The leftists, show once again they are only tolerant if you agree with them




Unlike the Trump supporter who punched an anti Trump demonstrator in the face then ran away.


----------



## Tink

The venue was still cancelled as they intended, Rumpole.

This is the problem, and what we seem to be seeing throughout the universities, imv.

In saying that, I am just watching where this election ends up, out of curiousity.


----------



## wayneL

I d







SirRumpole said:


> Unlike the Trump supporter who punched an anti Trump demonstrator in the face then ran away.




I don't think Trump is preaching tolerance, holding hands and chanting Om.... Not a "yes we can" to be heard, or free **** for all.

...so the comparison is redundant.


----------



## orr

wayneL said:


> The leftists, show once again they are only tolerant if you agree with them




Unlike the KKK of course, the arbiters of tolerance and good grace.... And Trumps view on the KKK_ "great bunch 'o' 'good ol boys"_

There's some truely 'strange fruit' in the Trump camp.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I d
> 
> I don't think Trump is preaching tolerance, holding hands and chanting Om.... Not a "yes we can" to be heard, or free **** for all.
> 
> ...so the comparison is redundant.




Nice of you to acknowledge that the 'Left' is preaching tolerance. 

What's the Right preaching, Facism ?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Nice of you to acknowledge that the 'Left' is preaching tolerance.
> 
> What's the Right preaching, Facism ?




Serious "Patriotism"?


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> Arrrrghh I must be sick , the flu or something...Have a nice week end




There are instances of people seeing the light during a bad fever. haha... I just realised why I got no friends.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Serious "Patriotism"?




Ah yes, the first refuge of scoundrels.


----------



## luutzu

Obama's reason for the rise of Trump: Republicans lie too much so Trump trumps them because he lie better; Republicans are nasty and Trump win people's support because he's nastier.

wtf? 

Maybe it's not all the Republican's fault that the country and the masses are in deep poo and not liking it.




> "How can you be shocked?" he asked to laughter from the crowd, according to a transcript. "This is the guy, remember, who was sure that I was born in Kenya - who just wouldn't let it go. And all this same Republican establishment, they weren't saying nothing. As long as it was directed at me, they were fine with it. They thought it was a hoot, wanted to get his endorsement. And then now, suddenly, we're shocked that there's gambling going on in this establishment."
> The Republican Party set the conditions long ago for Trump's success, Obama said. The billionaire just capitalised on the GOP's own tactics, the president argued:
> "What is happening in this primary is just a distillation of what's been happening inside their party for more than a decade. I mean, the reason that many of their voters are responding is because this is what's been fed through the messages they've been sending for a long time - that you just make flat assertions that don't comport with the facts. That you just deny the evidence of science. That compromise is a betrayal. That the other side isn't simply wrong, or we just disagree, we want to take a different approach, but the other side is destroying the country, or treasonous. I mean, that's - look it up. That's what they've been saying."
> "So they can't be surprised when somebody suddenly looks and says, you know what, I can do that even better. I can make stuff up better than that. I can be more outrageous than that. I can insult people even better than that. I can be even more uncivil. I mean, conservative outlets have been feeding their base constantly the notion that everything is a disaster, that everybody else is to blame, that Obamacare is destroying the country. And it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. It's not, we disagree with this program, we think we can do it better - it's, oh, this is a crisis!"
> "So if you don't care about the facts, or the evidence, or civility, in general in making your arguments, you will end up with candidates who will say just about anything and do just about anything. And when your answer to every proposal that I make, or Democrats make is no, it means that you've got to become more and more unreasonable because that's the only way you can say no to some pretty reasonable stuff. And then you shouldn't be surprised when your party ultimately has no ideas to offer at all."
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...nald-trump-20160312-gnhkt6.html#ixzz42mXA8oXH
> Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Obama's reason for the rise of Trump: Republicans lie too much so Trump trumps them because he lie better; Republicans are nasty and Trump win people's support because he's nastier.
> 
> wtf?
> 
> Maybe it's not all the Republican's fault that the country and the masses are in deep poo and not liking it.




There may be something in what he says.

US politics seems, especially on the Republican side a lot more feral than ours is, after Abbott left anyway.


----------



## basilio

I think Obamas observations are pretty well spot on. I have found it unbelievable that seemingly intelligent people can defy reality at will and in fact attempt to create a new reality by simply repeating the same lie over and over again.

For example the ongoing madness of the Birther argument that tried to say President Obama should not be Prez because they say he was born in Kenya.  This rubbish went for years amongst extremists and the Republicians refused to disown it.  Trump was the last one left attempting to justify teh position.

Again "Obama is a Muslim" lie.  Repeated endlessly by extremists and not repudiated by Republicans who wanted to keep up pressure on President Obama.

How many sad, mad ideas have there been ?

Check it out




> *Chart: Almost Every Obama Conspiracy Theory Ever*
> Fake birth certificates, ghostwriters, teleprompters, a teenage trip to Mars, and more of the most paranoid and bizarro Obama conspiracy theories out there.
> 
> Barack Obama's presidency has been an inspiration to many Americans””especially nutjobs. Ever since the first-black-president-to-be appeared on the national political stage, a cottage industry of conservative conspiracy theorists has churned out bizarro, paranoid, and just plain racist effluvia””some of which has trickled into the political mainstream. Below, we've charted some of the Obama-baiters best (i.e., worst) work. (Scroll down for more detailed descriptions of the conspiracy theories in the diagram.)




http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/chart-obama-conspiracy-theories


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I think Obamas observations are pretty well spot on. I have found it unbelievable that seemingly intelligent people can defy reality at will and in fact attempt to create a new reality by simply repeating the same lie over and over again.
> 
> For example the ongoing madness of the Birther argument that tried to say President Obama should not be Prez because they say he was born in Kenya.  This rubbish went for years amongst extremists and the Republicians refused to disown it.  Trump was the last one left attempting to justify teh position.
> 
> Again "Obama is a Muslim" lie.  Repeated endlessly by extremists and not repudiated by Republicans who wanted to keep up pressure on President Obama.
> 
> How many sad, mad ideas have there been ?
> 
> Check it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/chart-obama-conspiracy-theories




There is something in what Obama said, but it's not the complete picture.

First, you can't say, because it is not true, that Trump is winning because he lies better and will be more confrontational against Democrats. 

Yes it is factually true that Trump lies, and lies like a psycho... and yes, his supporters support him not knowing he lies. But the real reason they support and like Trump, is of his perceived outsider status; like him for wanting to bring the jobs back; for making America great again; for caring for the little guys; for fighting for them; savings their jobs from Mexicans and saving their children from Muslims.

It's true that the Republicans, from what I as a simple observer can see, just go against whatever it is Obama and Democrats want to do... But that's not why people support Trump. They don't support him because he'll make the gov't even more unworkable. They want him so that he could make the gov't work again, and working for them.

So I wouldn't be blaming the supporters, or the Republicans, or Trump, for people wanting a gov't that represents and work for their interests.
---

Obama came to power during the GFC... he got a great disaster, he got a country and a people behind him... he could change the entire trajectory of the country. He just didn't. Didn't do it because of opposition, sure; but a lot of it got to do with him picking bad advisors and following the money and winning elections than doing what is right by the common people.

I still think he's a decent guy wanting to do good. But fact is, he just don't do good and that's just moral cowardice. 

IF I run a country for 8 years and the things that made it worst just got worst and the people that suffer just suffered more... I wouldn't be blaming other people for my administration's failures.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> IF I run a country for 8 years and the things that made it worst just got worst and the people that suffer just suffered more... I wouldn't be blaming other people for my administration's failures.




Most people consistently over estimate the power of a US President in peacetime.

In wartime he has the authority to blow up the world but as far as domestic affairs are concerned he has to get legislation passed by Congress which has been controlled by his political opponents (in the House of Reps) for most of his Presidency.

So yes he can blame other people to some extent, just just Abbott and Turnbull blame our Senate for not passing their legislation.


----------



## qldfrog

luutzu said:


> There is something in what Obama said, but it's not the complete picture.
> 
> First, you can't say, because it is not true, that Trump is winning because he lies better and will be more confrontational against Democrats.
> 
> Yes it is factually true that Trump lies, and lies like a psycho... and yes, his supporters support him not knowing he lies. But the real reason they support and like Trump, is of his perceived outsider status; like him for wanting to bring the jobs back; for making America great again; for caring for the little guys; for fighting for them; savings their jobs from Mexicans and saving their children from Muslims.
> 
> It's true that the Republicans, from what I as a simple observer can see, just go against whatever it is Obama and Democrats want to do... But that's not why people support Trump. They don't support him because he'll make the gov't even more unworkable. They want him so that he could make the gov't work again, and working for them.
> 
> So I wouldn't be blaming the supporters, or the Republicans, or Trump, for people wanting a gov't that represents and work for their interests.
> ---
> 
> Obama came to power during the GFC... he got a great disaster, he got a country and a people behind him... he could change the entire trajectory of the country. He just didn't. Didn't do it because of opposition, sure; but a lot of it got to do with him picking bad advisors and following the money and winning elections than doing what is right by the common people.
> 
> I still think he's a decent guy wanting to do good. But fact is, he just don't do good and that's just moral cowardice.
> 
> IF I run a country for 8 years and the things that made it worst just got worst and the people that suffer just suffered more... I wouldn't be blaming other people for my administration's failures.



What's happening, I actually fully agree with all what luutzu says above, am I soon going to praise uncontrolled immigration and rejoice at the show of social integration and hopes brought by the benefits of diversity after the riots of this week end...


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Most people consistently over estimate the power of a US President in peacetime.
> 
> In wartime he has the authority to blow up the world but as far as domestic affairs are concerned he has to get legislation passed by Congress which has been controlled by his political opponents (in the House of Reps) for most of his Presidency.
> 
> So yes he can blame other people to some extent, just just Abbott and Turnbull blame our Senate for not passing their legislation.




True that the US is a sort of parliamentary gov't with branches of power - so power is divided among the few instead of the one true king. True too that from what we all can see, the Republican hasn't been debating and compromising so much as simply doing the opposite of Obama and their main mission, as Mitch McConnell or that dude that look like a turtle said, make the failure of Obama their main goal.

So yes, Obama couldn't get all he wanted partly because of those... BUT, but he is the president with all that power. He is the head of one arm of gov't. He is the only person who would sign and seal a Bill into Law... so he can't blame people.

That and from listening to Chomsky and other historians, such as Chris Hedges, Ralph Nader etc., Obama has been bought off and sold off to Big Business the moment he got into power. Much like Bill Clinton has.

For example, at the immediate aftermath of the GFC, Obama could have bailed both the big banks and the big corporations as well as bailing out small time homeowners. Instead some $800 billion, and then some more hundreds of billions that we don't know much about, are handed to big corporations and bankers to bail them out. And all but $1B, that's 1 out of at least 1000 Billion, were set aside for the homeowners.

Of that $1B, I think it was economist Stiglitz who said this, very very little was claimed by homeowners because the conditions attached made it almost impossible to claim. 

So countless of American homeowners lost their home. Sure they are partly to blame for it too, but so were the bankers and financial wizards to almost crash the world... But one got bailed out, and got all the bonuses and then some while the mass of people got kicked out of their home and either rent some motel or live in car or set up a tent somewhere. 

I've seen tent cities right now... not as large as during the Great Depression, but there are tents and cities fine or kick people out of it to clean up the place. Then there are empty houses decaying and people's wealth being wiped out from repocession of their home.

A lot could be done, as a lot had been done by Roosevelt, to balance and help the poor. But nope. As Obama's head economic advisor said, it is fair and we all must be civil and follow the contractual obligations to bail out and let CEOs of big banks that ruin everything, must let them have their bonuses for the year or two after because that was agreed to in their contract. But for the people and the pensioners whose savings were wiped out by those bankers? Free market and every man for himself, or something no one give a crap.

Then of course very little to no regulations that matters happen to stop it from happening. The bankers and corporations got bigger, their executive pays and compensation remain the same... and if they fail again, the public will foot the bill. But til then, they get to keep all the returns from all the high risks and "entrepreneurial" skills in finance they can muster.

---

Or take gun control. Seriously, how many crazy gun owners are there? Not as many as we are made to believe. Not as many as the more saner parts of America that would rather have some safety ahead of this liberty to carry and stuff. If Obama really wanted it fixed, he could. Make it hell for the republican and the gun lobby. Nope.

Or healthcare. As Chomsky said, it's practically written by the insurance industry itself. The public option, one like ours, were first put on the table but very quickly it was removed. Why? Most surveys have shown that the majority of the public want it, those that don't would probably want it once it's explained to them what it is. But it was remove from consideration because it benefits insurance companies to sell more insurance, benefit big pharma and private hospitals.

Or Guantanamo... Bush capture and torture them, Obama just drone them and create more enemies and hatred around the world. He probably it will put the fear of God into them but yea... fear and hatred is good for all our safety.


----

Then there's the water and poisoning of an American city... the crumbling infrastructures with not much being done about it... riots and mass shooting. 

Sure we can't all blame Obama for it... but it's incredible how little progress was made to change the country's inequality and bring the poor hope when such promise and such disaster and public outcry will made it possible with some spine and some thought for the public good.

It wasn't easy for Theodore Roosevelt to crack down on monopolies. He did take donations from rich people to run for office... but once in he does what is right by the people. Sure he was also a warmonger...

anyway... poor form for a president to blame the opposition. At least use the old "i'm the boss so of course it is my fault" line. Meaningless but at least it sounds a bit better.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Most people consistently over estimate the power of a US President in peacetime.
> 
> In wartime he has the authority to blow up the world but as far as domestic affairs are concerned he has to get legislation passed by Congress which has been controlled by his political opponents (in the House of Reps) for most of his Presidency.
> 
> So yes he can blame other people to some extent, just just Abbott and Turnbull blame our Senate for not passing their legislation.




It cuts both ways. The President can veto any bill he wants and then both houses need to pass it with a 2/3rds majority in order to by-pass the President. It's why Washington is in a permanent state of grid-lock these days. I think the US political system is totally broken.

It actually leaves you wondering what the purpose of a political HoS was in the minds of the framers of the US Constitution. Australia is, in many ways, the Washington with an apolitical HoS.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Nice of you to acknowledge that the 'Left' is preaching tolerance.
> ?




Preaching yes, practising no.


----------



## dutchie

qldfrog said:


> What's happening, I actually fully agree with all what luutzu says above, am I soon going to praise uncontrolled immigration and rejoice at the show of social integration and hopes brought by the benefits of diversity after the riots of this week end...




Nooooooo qldfrog. Don't go over to the dark side!


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> What's happening, I actually fully agree with all what luutzu says above, am I soon going to praise uncontrolled immigration and rejoice at the show of social integration and hopes brought by the benefits of diversity after the riots of this week end...




qld, kuuuhhhhh shuuuhhhh, frog, kuuuhhh shuuhhhh. Come over to the darkkkk sideee. Kuuhhhh suuhhhh... come see that all Man are brothers. Kuuhhh suuuhhhh... See how we all butchered one another, kuuuhhhh suuuhhhh... regardless of race or colour or, kuuhhhh suuhhh religion.... kuuhhh suuuhhhh or state and territory of Austaya.

kuuuhhh suuhhhh...  that we breathe.... kuuhhhh suuuhhhh... the same, kuuhhh suhhh... air. Dam it's getting hotter than usual under this black cape and helmet.


----------



## basilio

Another interpretation of Drumph.  Some new ideas that are worth considering (IMO)



> *Donald Trump Poses an Unprecedented Threat to American Democracy*
> By Jonathan Chait
> Follow @jonathanchait
> 
> 
> Last month, I made the case that a Donald Trump nomination would be better for America than the nomination of one of his Republican rivals. I no longer believe that. I began to change my mind when a report circulated highlighting his 1990 interview with Playboy in which he praised the brutality of the Tiananmen Square crackdown




http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...cedented-threat-to-democracy.html?wpsrc=nymag


----------



## Knobby22

Basilo
The Donald is there because of Democracy. 
The truth is that the Republican party has lost its way.
Even many Hispanics are backing him.
Don't believe what Murdoch and the rest of the establishment want you to believe. The US people know better as they are used to the propaganda.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Basilo
> The Donald is there because of Democracy.
> The truth is that the Republican party has lost its way.
> Even many Hispanics are backing him.
> Don't believe what Murdoch and the rest of the establishment want you to believe. The US people know better as they are used to the propaganda.




Hitler got there because of democracy too.

He consolidated power and became Dictator in some 53 days. I bet the German people back then didn't think their republic would ever settled for a dictatorship but ey, the guy made good speeches about glory and stuff and he got some 100 000 well dressed and mean looking soldiers behind him.

Though I think we're all hoping that Bernie Sanders would win the Democrats, take on Trump and maybe delay, or better yet, stop for a couple generations, the current spiral into violent revolt.

If Clinton win, it'll be just the same old crap and people are sick of it.

If Sanders win and he can't get anything done because of one reason or another... the American republic is going to head into serious trouble a decade or two down the track. Especially when their Middle region runs out of water and wars on all continents and also with China. 

Not a good thing when you wage war on all fronts while your people are sick of you. And you know they're sick of you when even the Hispanics and Latinos would rather vote for a Trump than the other Latino candidate.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Hitler got there because of democracy too.
> 
> Not a good thing when you wage war on all fronts while your people are sick of you. And you know they're sick of you when even the Hispanics and Latinos would rather vote for a Trump than the other Latino candidate.




The Hitler thing is a furphy pushed quite hard by the "money". It doesn't equate.
Trump is now getting wall to wall advertising against him. Huge amounts of money to try to stop him getting in.
As you state, the people would rather vote Trump than the other Republicans because there is at least some chance he will act in their interests.

Trump is a poor choice but as stated by a Latino activist on the 7:30 report he is the only one who can break up the Republican establishment. Rubio won't.


----------



## Tisme

Knobby22 said:


> Basilo
> The Donald is there because of Democracy.
> The truth is that the Republican party has lost its way.
> Even many Hispanics are backing him.
> Don't believe what Murdoch and the rest of the establishment want you to believe. The US people know better as they are used to the propaganda.




Have we forgotten the foreign press being flummoxed by the perceived imbecile in our last Prime Minister elect?  That worked out pretty well for us. We can debate the USA quality of leaders, but do we really have any credibility?


----------



## Logique

No less dangerous than Trump or Sanders if you ask me



> *Over the Hillary*
> Michael Copeman - March 13th 2016, http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/hillary/
> 
> Pity those poor Americans in this presidential election year. In one corner, the bizarre figure of Donald Trump. In the other, the woman who excused her husband's sexual predations, achieved nothing in the Senate and made cowardice her guide as Secretary of State. Some choice, eh?
> 
> Listening to one of Hillary Clinton’s stump speeches as she pursues the Democrats’ presidential nomination, you could be forgiven for suspecting that, taken at her word, she has been personally responsible for the liberation of women.
> 
> In truth, her vapid and dismissive response to Bill Clinton’s history of abusive affairs likely set the women’s movement back many years...


----------



## Knobby22

Didn't know you cared so much about women's rights Logique. 
Oh well since Hilary has set them back so far everyone better vote for Trump. Does he still run Miss Universe?


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> No less dangerous than Trump or Sanders if you ask me




Who cares really about Hilary and Bill's personal affairs ?

It's what she intends to do to/for the US that voters will vote for, or vote for Trump.


----------



## Tisme

I'm trying to work out why Trump is getting a bad rep


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> The Hitler thing is a furphy pushed quite hard by the "money". It doesn't equate.
> Trump is now getting wall to wall advertising against him. Huge amounts of money to try to stop him getting in.
> As you state, the people would rather vote Trump than the other Republicans because there is at least some chance he will act in their interests.
> 
> Trump is a poor choice but as stated by a Latino activist on the 7:30 report he is the only one who can break up the Republican establishment. Rubio won't.




I know the media and Fox pundits tend to call everyone they don't like a Hitler, so that's a bit much. But whether Trump could be a Hitler or not who knows... he sounds like he'd make a good dictator though - perfect for the role.

I think we're comparing Trump to Hitler more on the fact that the current environment in the US is getting, it appear so anyway, dangerously ready for a fascist dictator.

It was only 5 years ago that Reich's documentary showed 400 people having the equivalent of half of American's wealth. Now it's 20. 

Those big banks and big corporations that's too big to fail... just got bigger and control a bigger chunk of the country's financial assets.

That kind of concentration of wealth and power have serious consequences. One of it is not just the poor getting poorer and the so-called middle class is really the working poor now. But a major consequence is with so much wealth in so few hand, it's that much easier for a revolution. 

When the mass of people don't have much to lose from the current system being overthrown, who's going to fight against the rebellions? They the people are the rebellion and them rich folks better hire mercenaries or something.

This kind of revolutions have happen many many times throughout history. And it happen because the masses aren't well served. 

In a dictatorship and them third-world regimes... yea it's a bit tougher for the poor to rise up seeing how dictators tend not to care too much about cracking heads and all that. But in a "democracy" like the US, people can peacefully march on the streets and the country better change or else.

There's a recent Saturday Night Live skit about HIllary Clinton turning into Bernie Sanders - saying and adopting whatever he said that is now popular. It's for laughs but I'd imagine a lot of American won't find it too funny when they vote and watch as their jobs and their children's future get stuffed while the rich keep on getting richer and the poor across the country couldn't even drink water they actually paid for to the gov't.

There's only so much hate you can have for Muslims and Mexicans; only so much love you can have for guns and God. In the end, the belly talks and need to be filled. And if only 20 families' wealth are enough to redistribute the wealth, well let's hope they smarten up and spread it at their choosing rather than having it done for them like those European, Chinese monarchies and nobilities got their heads handed to them not too long ago.

Problem is, if Trump win the presidency, inequality will get worst. Same with Clinton. Sanders might not get much done either but if he fail, we don't really want a much weakened US with domestic disturbance against a rising China and all those enemies they created daily in other parts of the world.


----------



## Knobby22

Well written.
if Trump gets in he might act in the public's interest. That is why he is popular.

One part of the fascist definition which seems somewhat relevant to today's USA is:

Fascism operated from a Social Darwinist view of human relations. The aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak.[6] In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class.[7] Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of private profit and offered many benefits to large businesses, but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I know the media and Fox pundits tend to call everyone they don't like a Hitler, so that's a bit much. But whether Trump could be a Hitler or not who knows... he sounds like he'd make a good dictator though - perfect for the role.
> 
> I think we're comparing Trump to Hitler more on the fact that the current environment in the US is getting, it appear so anyway, dangerously ready for a fascist dictator.
> 
> It was only 5 years ago that Reich's documentary showed 400 people having the equivalent of half of American's wealth. Now it's 20.
> 
> Those big banks and big corporations that's too big to fail... just got bigger and control a bigger chunk of the country's financial assets.
> 
> That kind of concentration of wealth and power have serious consequences. One of it is not just the poor getting poorer and the so-called middle class is really the working poor now. But a major consequence is with so much wealth in so few hand, it's that much easier for a revolution.
> 
> When the mass of people don't have much to lose from the current system being overthrown, who's going to fight against the rebellions? They the people are the rebellion and them rich folks better hire mercenaries or something.
> 
> This kind of revolutions have happen many many times throughout history. And it happen because the masses aren't well served.
> 
> In a dictatorship and them third-world regimes... yea it's a bit tougher for the poor to rise up seeing how dictators tend not to care too much about cracking heads and all that. But in a "democracy" like the US, people can peacefully march on the streets and the country better change or else.
> 
> There's a recent Saturday Night Live skit about HIllary Clinton turning into Bernie Sanders - saying and adopting whatever he said that is now popular. It's for laughs but I'd imagine a lot of American won't find it too funny when they vote and watch as their jobs and their children's future get stuffed while the rich keep on getting richer and the poor across the country couldn't even drink water they actually paid for to the gov't.
> 
> There's only so much hate you can have for Muslims and Mexicans; only so much love you can have for guns and God. In the end, the belly talks and need to be filled. And if only 20 families' wealth are enough to redistribute the wealth, well let's hope they smarten up and spread it at their choosing rather than having it done for them like those European, Chinese monarchies and nobilities got their heads handed to them not too long ago.
> 
> Problem is, if Trump win the presidency, inequality will get worst. Same with Clinton. Sanders might not get much done either but if he fail, we don't really want a much weakened US with domestic disturbance against a rising China and all those enemies they created daily in other parts of the world.





Fess up luutzu, are there two of you writing posts and I don't mean Jekyll and Hyde?


----------



## qldfrog

*


Knobby22 said:



			but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.
		
Click to expand...


*in the same way here, I have nothing against billions of profit for rio/bhp/etc or woolworth as long as it serves the national interest.
The day Ford's interest dissociated from the US interest is when super profit inflated but also when the corporations signed their  death sentences IMHO


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Fess up luutzu, are there two of you writing posts and I don't mean Jekyll and Hyde?




Oh ey, I was going to ask the same of you a few times. But manners and stuff got in the way 

But no, there's only me, myself and I.

Quality and sentiment are generally fair and balance. Well, quality depends on time of day and day of the week...


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Well written.
> if Trump gets in he might act in the public's interest. That is why he is popular.
> 
> One part of the fascist definition which seems somewhat relevant to today's USA is:
> 
> Fascism operated from a Social Darwinist view of human relations. The aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak.[6] In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class.[7] Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of private profit and offered many benefits to large businesses, but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.




Maybe not the Social Darwinist stuff? Maybe?

Definitely not the last but about demanding economic activities serving the national interests. 

Maybe once upon a time. Now it seems that it's just assumed American corporations and American elite will automatically serve America and other Americans by getting rich. Just that they don't and only does so by accident... and all the gov't seem to do now is go "ehhh..."

Saw Joe Biden as Davos or something this year where he was sounding real tough telling American executives there to bring back their corporations cash to America because it build the country.

I thought gov't and their IRS could kinda write a law or two and it'll be brought back or else! But here it's "pretty please, please bring it back".


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> in the same way here, I have nothing against billions of profit for rio/bhp/etc or woolworth as long as it serves the national interest.
> The day Ford's interest dissociated from the US interest is when super profit inflated but also when the corporations signed their  death sentences IMHO




What the... that's like three times this week. 

One of us have got to see a doctor


----------



## DB008

*Trump Wins Three States as John Kasich Blocks Him in Ohio​*


> Donald Trump fell short of his goal of winning the two key states he needed to clear most of the Republican presidential field, securing a huge victory in Florida to knock out home-state Senator Marco Rubio before losing Ohio to Governor John Kasich.
> 
> The split decision on Trump increased the possibility that the party could be headed for a potentially chaotic national convention in Cleveland in July. Trump also won Illinois and North Carolina, according to multiple television networks.







> Rubio, the junior senator from Florida and the real estate mogul’s latest political victim, suspended his campaign.
> 
> "After tonight it is clear that while we are on the right side, we are not on the winning side," Rubio said from his hometown of Miami. "While this may not have been the year for a hopeful and optimistic message about our future, I still remain hopeful and optimistic about America."
> 
> Kasich, who had vowed to drop out of the race if he didn’t win his home state, will now emerge as the Republican establishment’s top candidate. But it’s an open question where he can win next against a dominant campaigner like Trump.




http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-03-16/trump-wins-florida-in-blow-to-rubio-s-presidential-ambitions​


----------



## Knobby22

Kasich could hurt Trump and stop him getting outright victory but staying will also make it harder for Cruz.

I think Trump will come very close and so will be effectively unstoppable. It wouldn't surprise me to see Kasich ending up the Vice President to  Trump. It would actually be a fairly good combination to take on Hilary.


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> Didn't know you cared so much about women's rights Logique.
> Oh well since Hilary has set them back so far everyone better vote for Trump. Does he still run Miss Universe?



Knobby and SirR, Hillary may well be indicted before she can run for President.  US Secretary of State business on a private email account, who does that? 

But to be fair, the Donald has been caught out a few times during the campaign.


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> Knobby and SirR, Hillary may well be indicted before she can run for President.  US Secretary of State business on a private email account, who does that?
> 
> But to be fair, the Donald has been caught out a few times during the campaign.




Heard about her potential indictment.

Talk about running a gov't department like her personal fiefdom.


----------



## pixel

*Maybe there's hope yet ...*

AN AIRPLANE WAS ABOUT TO CRASH. 
IT HAD 5 PASSENGERS ON BOARD, BUT ONLY 4 PARACHUTES. 

THE FIRST PASSENGER, HOLLY MADISON, SAID, "I HAVE MY OWN REALITY SHOW AND I AM THE SMARTEST AND PRETTIEST WOMAN AT PLAYBOY, SO AMERICANS DON'T WANT ME TO DIE."
SHE TOOK THE FIRST PACK AND JUMPED OUT OF THE PLANE.

THE SECOND PASSENGER, JOHN MCCAIN, SAID, "I'M A SENATOR, AND A DECORATED WAR HERO FROM AN ELITE NAVY UNIT FROM THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA." 
SO HE GRABBED THE SECOND PACK AND JUMPED.

THE THIRD PASSENGER, DONALD TRUMP, SAID, "I AM GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I AM THE SMARTEST MAN IN OUR COUNTRY, AND I WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN".
SO HE GRABBED THE PACK NEXT TO HIM AND JUMPED OUT.

THE FOURTH PASSENGER, BILLY GRAHAM, SAID TO THE FIFTH PASSENGER, A 10-YEAR-OLD SCHOOLGIRL, "I HAVE LIVED A FULL LIFE AND SERVED MY GOD THE BEST I COULD. YOU HAVE A FULL LIFE AHEAD OF YOU, SO I LET YOU HAVE THE LAST PARACHUTE. " 

THE LITTLE GIRL SAID, "THAT'S OKAY, MR. GRAHAM. THERE'S A PARACHUTE LEFT FOR YOU, TOO. THE SMARTEST MAN IN AMERICA TOOK MY SCHOOLBAG."


----------



## luutzu

pixel said:


> *Maybe there's hope yet ...*
> 
> AN AIRPLANE WAS ABOUT TO CRASH.
> IT HAD 5 PASSENGERS ON BOARD, BUT ONLY 4 PARACHUTES.
> 
> THE FIRST PASSENGER, HOLLY MADISON, SAID, "I HAVE MY OWN REALITY SHOW AND I AM THE SMARTEST AND PRETTIEST WOMAN AT PLAYBOY, SO AMERICANS DON'T WANT ME TO DIE."
> SHE TOOK THE FIRST PACK AND JUMPED OUT OF THE PLANE.
> 
> THE SECOND PASSENGER, JOHN MCCAIN, SAID, "I'M A SENATOR, AND A DECORATED WAR HERO FROM AN ELITE NAVY UNIT FROM THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA."
> SO HE GRABBED THE SECOND PACK AND JUMPED.
> 
> THE THIRD PASSENGER, DONALD TRUMP, SAID, "I AM GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I AM THE SMARTEST MAN IN OUR COUNTRY, AND I WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN".
> SO HE GRABBED THE PACK NEXT TO HIM AND JUMPED OUT.
> 
> THE FOURTH PASSENGER, BILLY GRAHAM, SAID TO THE FIFTH PASSENGER, A 10-YEAR-OLD SCHOOLGIRL, "I HAVE LIVED A FULL LIFE AND SERVED MY GOD THE BEST I COULD. YOU HAVE A FULL LIFE AHEAD OF YOU, SO I LET YOU HAVE THE LAST PARACHUTE. "
> 
> THE LITTLE GIRL SAID, "THAT'S OKAY, MR. GRAHAM. THERE'S A PARACHUTE LEFT FOR YOU, TOO. THE SMARTEST MAN IN AMERICA TOOK MY SCHOOLBAG."




Trump as president, can't believe I say that... but he'd definitely be indicted if he run the country the way he run his business "empire".

Then VP Palin will be president. dam!


----------



## basilio

Big story from Scott Adams creator of Dilbert.

I have big wraps on Scott. Read his books and he has a very astute understanding of human nature. His analysis of Donald Trump's campaign and why he believes Donald will win in a landslide is chilling.

Thoughts ?



> *Donald Trump will win in a landslide, says Dilbert creator Scott Adams *




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...bert-creator-scott-adams-20160324-gnqpxd.html


----------



## basilio

Went to Scott Adams blog.  More on Trump. Very thought provoking. Certainly another take on the whole situation.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/141605245101/whos-afraid-of-donald-trump


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Big story from Scott Adams creator of Dilbert.
> 
> I have big wraps on Scott. Read his books and he has a very astute understanding of human nature. His analysis of Donald Trump's campaign and why he believes Donald will win in a landslide is chilling.
> 
> Thoughts ?
> 
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...bert-creator-scott-adams-20160324-gnqpxd.html




A couple of national polls put Sanders way ahead of Trump if they're to run against each other. So maybe Trump won't be able to sell himself so well outside the Republican base.

A lot of Adams point about why Trump would win - master persuader; use emotion; ignore facts and reality... All these are use by practically all politicians, and true, to great success. And Clinton would be on par with Trump when it comes to tough talks without facts or made up or conveniently ignored truths and sensibility...

Reminds me of some Q&A session with Chomsky on the Tea Party movement some two years after Obama got elected... 

Chomsky was saying how if an "honest and decent" demi-god get into the race, the population will follow and abandon the current Democrat/Republican structure in a heartbeat.

Lucky for US Trump is too loud, too dishonest, too flamboyant and just too much. If he were like Hitler - well spoken, straight shooter who don't smoke or drink or gamble or womanise; and a war hero who wish to make the country great again (through house cleaning and cleaning up the neighbourhood and then the world)... the current political climate in the US, according to Chomsky 5 years ago, people will follow him.

So we're hoping that if a political revolution is to take place, it'd be with that Socialist Senator.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> Big story from Scott Adams creator of Dilbert.
> 
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...bert-creator-scott-adams-20160324-gnqpxd.html



was going to post what is actually the same article from brisbane time, indeed very interesting and I would not be surprise if scott ends up right,Trump is pressing the right button in a concext where it fits perfectly and electorate has given up on the rest.Interesting time ahead, will money be enough to beat his skills


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> Went to Scott Adams blog.  More on Trump. Very thought provoking. Certainly another take on the whole situation.
> 
> http://blog.dilbert.com/post/141605245101/whos-afraid-of-donald-trump



Excellent article. But against the theocrat Cruz he has to win. Amazingly he is taking the middle ground. I think he may beat Hillary. Sanders would defeat him though. The USA have suffered from propaganda for so long that the desperation to try to get the government to act for their interests is palpable. Trump plays on this.


----------



## Tisme

Knobby22 said:


> Excellent article. But against the theocrat Cruz he has to win. Amazingly he is taking the middle ground. I think he may beat Hillary. Sanders would defeat him though. The USA have suffered from propaganda for so long that the desperation to try to get the government to act for their interests is palpable. Trump plays on this.




They are bombarded by so much propaganda they are as if hypnotised into thinking they are invincible and merely being held back by the lessons of empire and revolution.

 I wouldn't be surprised if the new nationalistic mantra becomes returning to the core principles of individual liberalism, but sacrificing civic nationalism in order to kill off the undesirable ethnics in the ethnic nationalism that has fused itself to US society.....that will probably be attractive to those who favoured the civics of old isolationist america, where christian white was right and the rest were the anathema to all things good.


----------



## Knobby22

Trump got nearly all the votes for NY. Getting 89 delegates out of a total 93 due to the way the Republicans rig the process. They rig it to favour the establishment but trump now has it favouring him. 

He isn't getting some delegates because the party heads pick them not the people such as the 30 delegates of Colorado and Cruz has 16 out of 17 super delegates. Even so, he is looking hard to stop. Exciting times.

172 votes up for grabs next Tuesday.If Trump gets half of them and also California (June 7th) he will be the Republican contender! He needs 392 more delegates all up, 674 delegates remaining.


----------



## DB008

Bernie is gone

Trump won NY

It  will be Trump v Hillary for the White House


----------



## CanOz

DB008 said:


> Bernie is gone
> 
> Trump won NY
> 
> It  will be Trump v Hillary for the White House




Its a sad day for the US...what a choice.


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> Its a sad day for the US...what a choice.



Trump anytime even if i would not have given Bernie much of a chance against the 1%, Trump has more chance to make an impact  but not a given; like economy with recession, i believe earthquakes can be positive long term; without earthquakes, earth would be a dead planet, the trouble is when that release waits for too long, casualties can be high, but in a western civilisation collapsing in front of a political muslim front and governed by self interest lobbies, it will be interesting.
The question is will the 1% be able to rig the results enough to keep its new  puppet in (after a black president, a woman, imagine how progressive this will be  )Another obamah care to inflate some lobbies pockets?


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> Bernie is gone
> 
> Trump won NY
> 
> It  will be Trump v Hillary for the White House




Not so fast.

Clinton won NY City, Sanders won the other parts of the state.

Also, NY was a closed primary - meaning that you'd have to be registered as a Democrat in October last year to vote in this primary. That cut out all independents who would have voted for Sanders - as they have in the previous 8 out of 9 wins he did.

Then there's the voters being purged from the register because they haven't voted past couple of elections - maybe got sick of status quo and now want to vote for Sanders?


Trump, Cruz, Clinton all have net negative opinion polls. i.e. people in general do not like them. Sanders is the only one with a net positive of 9 point. ie. voters in general like him. 

Further, Clinton will soon run out of cash since there's only so many rich people and most of them have maxed out their limits to contribute. Sanders' average is only $27 so far... and them six million small donations can keep giving again. Cash wise, he's only slightly behind the Clinton machine.

So unless it's rigged, Sanders will win this thing.


----------



## qldfrog

luutzu said:


> So unless it's rigged, Sanders will win this thing.



of course it is rigged!
Less than in Australia as they do not have compulsory voting so media propaganda is less powerfull, but Sanders is even more antioestablishment than Trump, he will be cut; no matter the popularity among the peons..sorry citizens;
Trump has the money and contacts/doubt so the power in place may allow him to win then try to cut him after if he becomes too dangerous (at their risk in my opinion)
they will not try this on Sanders and Clinton will be nominated, a nice puppet once more solidly bought


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> of course it is rigged!
> Less than in Australia as they do not have compulsory voting so media propaganda is less powerfull, but Sanders is even more antioestablishment than Trump, he will be cut; no matter the popularity among the peons..sorry citizens;
> Trump has the money and contacts/doubt so the power in place may allow him to win then try to cut him after if he becomes too dangerous (at their risk in my opinion)
> they will not try this on Sanders and Clinton will be nominated, a nice puppet once more solidly bought




Trump doesn't have money. Well, he's not using whatever money he has - he's lending it to his campaign and when people send in donations the campaign pays him back. Probably with interests too, the farker.

Clinton is just too  much. Her entire campaign is a lie - "fight for us"... yah right. For a person getting paid $200k+ a speech she somehow got it into her head that people earning $15 an hour is just dreaming too big and the world cannot be that generous.

I doubt Sanders could do much of what he promised, the system being what it is. But at least he's talking about it and raising the issue so that even if he can't bring it about, the people are aware of alternatives and possibilities to current thinking.


----------



## DB008

l'd vote for Trump over Clinton any day of the week.

Clinton is a flat out liar saying anything to get votes. At least with Trump; he can't be bought and isn't pandering to political correctness of the left. Speaking his mind, breath of fresh-air in politics. He might be taken out before he makes it to the White House.

He has been mocked for the wall he wants to build on the USA/Mexican border. He is right though.


https://mobile.twitter.com/ChatRevolve/status/723651352212054016/video/1​


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> l'd vote for Trump over Clinton any day of the week.
> 
> Clinton is a flat out liar saying anything to get votes. At least with Trump; he can't be bought and isn't pandering to political correctness of the left. Speaking his mind, breath of fresh-air in politics. He might be taken out before he makes it to the White House.
> 
> He has been mocked for the wall he wants to build on the USA/Mexican border. He is right though.
> 
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/ChatRevolve/status/723651352212054016/video/1​




Not quite sure who'd win that "better liar" contest. Trump have lied so well and so often he himself might even believe his own crap.

Yah... Mexico will pay for that 4 or 8 or 16 or 20 billion dollar wall. One that just got more expensive after Trump add another 10 feet because the Mexican presidents told him to go play with himself.


----------



## wayneL

Newsflash folks

Hilarious will be el presidente.

PC 'Murica has voted in a black man, seeing as it was an abject failure, it wil give a women a try.

Policy and lawbreaking is irrelevant


----------



## luutzu

Trump is coming


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Newsflash folks
> 
> Hilarious will be el presidente.
> 
> PC 'Murica has voted in a black man, seeing as it was an abject failure, it wil give a women a try.
> 
> Policy and lawbreaking is irrelevant




That was true for Obama - can't remember much of his policy promises. Only Hope and Change, being united as one people... well there's withdrawl from Iraq and closing Guantanamo. 

But it looks like it's different this time round. People want real policy and real changes - and not the sort of status quo bs Clinton is (maybe) promising.


----------



## Wysiwyg

qldfrog said:


> of course it is rigged!
> Less than in Australia as they do not have compulsory voting



So the non voters should not whinge about the new President and the state of the country. Their election process and the garbage churned during the campaign (see farce) is unbelievable. I think sanity will prevail and the lesser psychotic but more dreamy Hillary will get the numbers.


----------



## Knobby22

Maybe the retropublicans will get their act together next time.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Maybe the retropublicans will get their act together next time.




Both parties and thei annointed ones got screwed by outsiders this round. Hillary by a lifelong Independent too smart to play by their rules; Jeb by a narcissistic car sales man who thought it'd be cool to promote himself and get others to pay for it.


----------



## Knobby22

Important day today.
Maryland is a funny shape. I wonder how that occurred. The USA has a pretty interesting history.


----------



## CanOz

Knobby22 said:


> Important day today.
> Maryland is a funny shape. I wonder how that occurred. The USA has a pretty interesting history.




He's taken them all:1zhelp:


----------



## Knobby22

CanOz said:


> He's taken them all:1zhelp:




Yep, It's Trump vs Clinton
Bring on the election.

I think Trump will change his message a lot once he is finished kowtowing the Retropublicans with the nominations.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him knock off Clinton.

Watch the FOX media suddenly see Trump as a statesman with many good points and some bigwigs trying to influence him.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Yep, It's Trump vs Clinton
> Bring on the election.
> 
> I think Trump will change his message a lot once he is finished kowtowing the Retropublicans with the nominations.
> I wouldn't be surprised to see him knock off Clinton.
> 
> Watch the FOX media suddenly see Trump as a statesman with many good points and some bigwigs trying to influence him.




He has.

Heard him on CNN or something saying he was only joking, 'cause he's a funny guy he said, about Muslims and Mexicans. 

Then there's that "I'll soon be presidential it's unbelievable" he spouts in front of actual supporters. 

As bad as it sound, Clinton won't stand a chance against this guy. He's an a hole but at least he's not part of the political establishment.. .and in a climate where the voters are sick of establishment politics and their bs, Clinton is the one the Dems want to bring out?

At least Americans got plenty of guns and plenty of canned food.


----------



## DB008

As I said earlier, Clinton is rotten to the core...


*Clinton's Internet Supporters, Allegedly Using Pornography, Shut Down Bernie Sanders' Largest Facebook Groups in Coordinated Attack​*



> Last week, Correct The Record (CTR), David Brock’s super PAC that coordinates with Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, announced that it was spending $1m on social media in an effort to combat Bernie Sanders’ online dominance. How, specifically? By paying trolls.
> 
> Last night, on the eve of five Democratic Primary elections””Connecticut, Rhode Island, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and Maryland””we may have seen this paid army in action. Several notable Bernie Sanders Facebook groups were taken down following a coordinated cyber attack by Clinton supporters, in which a number of users reported content on the pages simultaneously. According to US Uncut, “Facebook’s automated systems take note of how many individuals report a particular post, and if the post is reported enough, it will be taken down. This same process applies to groups, pages, and individual user accounts.”
> 
> The groups affected by the attack include (but are not limited to) the following:
> 
> Bernie Sanders Activists (40,122 members)
> Bernie Sanders Is My Hero (60,097 members)
> Bernie or Bust (16,812 members)
> Bernie Sanders – Ideas Welcome (33,836 members)
> Bernie Sanders for President 2016 (117,601 members)
> Bernie Sanders Revolutionaries
> Bay Area for Bernie




http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/04/clintons-internet-supporters-allegedly-using-porno.html​


----------



## Logique

The Donald now only needs around 300 of the remaining 622 uncommitted delegates, so even heading him off at the convention is now is a declining possibility.

Yeah, he's scary, but have a closer look at Hillary, as DB008 has, she's frightening.


----------



## DB008

Cruz is out. 

Only 2 men left in the Republican race and the other bloke is coming 4th in a 2 man race, so basically Trump is in.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> Cruz is out.
> 
> Only 2 men left in the Republican race and the other bloke is coming 4th in a 2 man race, so basically Trump is in.




Maybe the general population are fed up with the pantomime, that the U.S tries to pass off as real life.

Looks to me like a protest vote, much like what happened here, last senate election.IMO


----------



## DB008

Kasich is now out.


----------



## Tisme

DB008 said:


> Cruz is out.
> 
> Only 2 men left in the Republican race and the other bloke is coming 4th in a 2 man race, so basically Trump is in.




http://gawker.com/watch-ted-cruz-s-daughter-literally-run-from-her-father-1773799772

and

http://gawker.com/failed-candidate-ted-cruz-elbows-wife-in-face-1774591248


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> http://gawker.com/watch-ted-cruz-s-daughter-literally-run-from-her-father-1773799772
> 
> and
> 
> http://gawker.com/failed-candidate-ted-cruz-elbows-wife-in-face-1774591248




https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLDmyt6SSrdi_KJjjxSGY3sJXSgOrZwIof&v=KqpHTFJO4mE

Just have a look at the  Url I posted . Outtakes from the Cruz promotions.  Terrifying stuff.  Truly his family are not  his fans..

Makes Drumph look good.. scary as that sounds.


----------



## Knobby22

It appears that the Bush mark II type guys (Bush and Rubio) and the true Conservatives (Cruz) are not where the actual Republican voters want to go. And no wonder! the Republicans need a major rethink on what they want to achieve. I have read many articles on this and it is quite fascinating. 

Trump is a wake up call that changes should have happened 10 years ago.


----------



## DB008

Go Donald! Upsetting someone who more than likely had links/helped 9/11 and beheads people in his own country for 'witchcraft' and Saudi has also given massive donations to Hillary.


*Saudi Prince Urges American Voters To ‘Make The Right Choice’ On Donald Trump​*


> WASHINGTON ”” Representatives of foreign allies tend to tiptoe around the issue of U.S. elections, hesitant to risk offending a candidate who may later be elected president. But the ascension of real estate mogul Donald Trump to the position of the presumptive Republican nominee has compelled some foreign officials to try to sway American voters away from backing the bombastic candidate.
> 
> With carefully chosen words, Prince Turki al-Faisal, a former ambassador to the U.S., warned against a Trump presidency. “For the life of me, I cannot believe that a country like the United States can afford to have someone as president who simply says, ‘These people are not going to be allowed to come to the United States,’” Turki said on Thursday evening, referring to Trump’s proposal to ban Muslims from entering the country.
> 
> “It’s up to you, it’s not up to me,” Turki continued, speaking at a Washington Institute For Near East Policy dinner hosted at the Mandarin Oriental hotel. “I just hope you, as American citizens, will make the right choice in November.”
> 
> The former top Saudi intelligence chief is known for his close relationships with U.S. officials and his ability to charm an American audience, even as the United States grows more critical of the Gulf state’s dismal human rights record at home and high-casualty war in Yemen.





http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/prince-turki-donald-trump_us_572c1fd2e4b096e9f090e769?section=australia​


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> It appears that the Bush mark II type guys (Bush and Rubio) and the true Conservatives (Cruz) are not where the actual Republican voters want to go. And no wonder! the Republicans need a major rethink on what they want to achieve. I have read many articles on this and it is quite fascinating.
> 
> Trump is a wake up call that changes should have happened 10 years ago.




Very true. The GOP needs an Eisenhower


----------



## basilio

*Welcome to the age of Trump.*

Around the world democracy is fading as the way to run our countries. I was just reading an excellent analysis of why Donald Trump (and his fellow autocrats)  are so successful.  As a sample consider this



> *The World Values Survey of 2011 included a stunning figure. It found that 34% of Americans approved of “having a strong leader who doesn’t have to bother with Congress or elections”, the figure rising to 42% among those with no education beyond high school. It’s worth reading that again, to let it sink in. It means that one in three US voters would prefer a dictator to democracy. Those Americans are not repudiating this or that government, but abandoning the very idea of democracy itself.
> 
> These figures reinforce a pattern revealed by recent academic research that shows a body of US opinion predisposed toward liberal democracy’s polar opposite: authoritarianism.*




This is a long read  but worth the effort. Where are we going ?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/19/welcome-to-the-age-of-trump


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *Welcome to the age of Trump.*
> 
> Around the world democracy is fading as the way to run our countries. I was just reading an excellent analysis of why Donald Trump (and his fellow autocrats)  are so successful.  As a sample consider this
> 
> 
> 
> This is a long read  but worth the effort. Where are we going ?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/19/welcome-to-the-age-of-trump




I think some survey couple years back found the US Congress have something like 5% favorability. The current election/primaries showed how fed up the American people are with establishment candidates... I mean Trump isn't your typical Republican, if he is that; same with Sanders.

Both these guys are practically outsiders pretending to be Dems/Republicans so they can have a platform. With Trump a stage to promote himself but somehow got lucky; with Sanders beating up both the DNC and all its backers.

If the DNC managed to get Clinton in and Sander is out... I think Trump will win. That might not be as scary as it sounds because it'll just mean the inevitable revolution just got there 8 years sooner.

Hopefully Sanders win and managed to do half the stuff he proposes... it may bring back the New Deal that saved Americans from a civil bloodbath - as it most certainly would have if FDR and activists weren't there to forced it.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Welcome to the age of Trump.*
> 
> Around the world democracy is fading as the way to run our countries. I was just reading an excellent analysis of why Donald Trump (and his fellow autocrats)  are so successful.  As a sample consider this
> 
> 
> 
> This is a long read  but worth the effort. Where are we going ?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/19/welcome-to-the-age-of-trump




I agree that the world appears to be looking for dictators. It's not just the US. I haven't read the article yet. But I would also suspect that people want to put their countries and those living in it first. And not pander to outside laws,  or governing bodies. 
China and Russia are already grabbing land.      Seismic shifts over the next decade IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole

Donald Trump was asked if he could quote any Bible verses.



 He answered:  Trump 20:16, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Deport him and you won't have to feed him again."


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Donald Trump was asked if he could quote any Bible verses.
> 
> 
> 
> He answered:  Trump 20:16, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Deport him and you won't have to feed him again."





Trump probably received more welfare than all the Mexican illegals combined.

There's the usual tax cuts and offshore havens; the bankruptcy law that allow him to "manage" businesses, pay himself bucket loads, goes bankrupt, lose his investors all their cash... and his investors cannot touch his other assets. Bankrupt his casinos at least four times...  

This guy is a pathological liar. He even brags about his lying in his autobiography - The Art of the Deal.

There's the somewhat harmless lie to promote himself to other business people; then the definitely borderline illegal lie of asking his construction crew to dig and bulldoze dirt around an empty lot - showing progress and busy work - as he tries to smooth his investors out of their money. 

He'll definitely give Hillary a run for her money.


----------



## Macquack

luutzu said:


> *Trump probably received more welfare than all the Mexican illegals combined.*
> 
> There's the usual tax cuts and offshore havens; the bankruptcy law that allow him to "manage" businesses, pay himself bucket loads, goes bankrupt, lose his investors all their cash... and his investors cannot touch his other assets. Bankrupt his casinos at least four times...
> 
> *This guy is a pathological liar. He even brags about his lying in his autobiography - The Art of the Deal.*
> 
> There's the somewhat harmless lie to promote himself to other business people; then the definitely borderline illegal lie of asking his construction crew to dig and bulldoze dirt around an empty lot - showing progress and busy work - as he tries to smooth his investors out of their money.
> 
> *He'll definitely give Hillary a run for her money*.




I agree with you luutzu except I don't think he will give Hillary Clinton a run for her money.

If Donald Trump was not a billionaire, he would just be your typical loud mouth fool who would be generally ignored. 

If he did not have an army of minders, there would be an army of people who would love to knock him out.

Donald Trump is a disgrace to the human race, but the German people elected Adolf Hitler.

On second thought, you are probably right as usual, luutzu.


----------



## qldfrog

Macquack said:


> I
> 
> On second thought, you are probably right as usual, luutzu.



Luutzu is probably right in the above , yes but not "as usual"


----------



## Logique

moXJO said:


> I agree that the world appears to be looking for dictators. It's not just the US. I haven't read the article yet. But I would also suspect that people want to put their countries and those living in it first. And not pander to outside laws,  or governing bodies.
> China and Russia are already grabbing land. Seismic shifts over the next decade IMO.



Indeed so.

There was a seismic shift on 15 March, 44 BC. Julius Caesar's end presaged the end of the Roman republic. Dictators thereafter.

In contemporary times, rampant "thought policing" and political correctness, and 

dysfunctional parliaments.

Is it any wonder.


----------



## Logique

DB008 said:


> l'd vote for Trump over Clinton any day of the week.
> 
> Clinton is a flat out liar saying anything to get votes. At least with Trump; he can't be bought and isn't pandering to political correctness of the left. Speaking his mind, breath of fresh-air in politics. He might be taken out before he makes it to the White House.
> 
> He has been mocked for the wall he wants to build on the USA/Mexican border. He is right though.
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/ChatRevolve/status/723651352212054016/video/1​



Hillary should be seen in mug shot profile.

As I've repeatedly said, a future under a President Hillary is equally, if not more frightening than under a President Trump.

Some people just should _not_ be given too much power.


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> I agree with you luutzu except I don't think he will give Hillary Clinton a run for her money.
> 
> If Donald Trump was not a billionaire, he would just be your typical loud mouth fool who would be generally ignored.
> 
> If he did not have an army of minders, there would be an army of people who would love to knock him out.
> 
> Donald Trump is a disgrace to the human race, but the German people elected Adolf Hitler.
> 
> On second thought, you are probably right as usual, luutzu.




Yea, Trump is quite something. But honestly, I don't think he's any worst or any better than Hillary Clinton - both as a person and as a president. And that is scary.

Trump seems worst than Hillary in that he actually say the bs that he thinks... Clinton don't say the nasty stuff, she just does it - for a price.

We don't like Trump for being racist and nasty towards Mexican, refugees etc., Bill Clinton not only continue the war on drugs - a mask to lock up poor white trash and small time black/coloured drug users and dealers with targeted policing; they ramp that up with those Three Strike rules; then profit their friends and donors further with privatising the US prison system.

Then there's the NAFTA trade deal that screwed over Mexican farmers, sending millions of them off their land, going broke and some having to escape over the US border for a job to send some money back home.

Or if we're worried about Trump and his tiny itchy fingers... Hillary was the main force behind the overthrow of Libya's Gahdafi - her staff were drafting that ballsiness into her potential run for president when it look like it's going to be a cakewalk; then there's her push for Obama to send the troops to overthrow Assad - that failed so she want No Fly Zones over it; there's her threat about nuking Iran if it look at Israel funny or something etc. etc.

So what crazy warmongering and uprooting of the poor and the weak we fear Trump might do, Clinton had already done it. And what's worst is she doesn't think there's anything wrong with it.

Or take bribery and being bought off... Trump will definitely sell the heck out of himself and the American public... So has the Clintons. They've got $3 billion in donation to their "charity" so far; gotten some $140M in speaking fees alone past 10 years... and there's plenty of allegations of way too  many happy coincidences of generous people giving the Clinton Foundations and/or hiring one of them for upwards of $750k per speech... they then got money back on those investment.


So yea, Trump can just call his accountant and ask for a receipt to the Clintons. Doesn't take a genius to come up with something like: Hillary is so corrupt, the system is so corrupt that an entreprenuer like myself, an honest god-loving American loving patriot like meself have to, have to, give money to these politicians or else they'll make my company a living hell I'd have to fire Americans and hire Mexicans.

So Clinton is not going to win against Trump. Scary as it is, he has a better case of being honest and caring than she does.

But I wouldn't be too worry about it, Sanders still have a real shot at beating her. Given all the rigging the DNC has done for her, she's still barely ahead. And with a potential FBI indictment; civil cases against her email server and potential back-scratching and those speeches to the bankers leaking... Hard to see how the Super delegates will want her now that Sanders has been doing a heck of a job against her, and polling show he could easily beat Trump as oppose to Clinton possibly tying against Trump.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> Luutzu is probably right in the above , yes but not "as usual"




Write enough and the odds will stack in your favour


----------



## qldfrog

luutzu said:


> Write enough and the odds will stack in your favour




And you are right again!! 
Have a nice week guys(and girls).


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> And you are right again!!
> Have a nice week guys(and girls).




latest polls show Trump is beating Clinton. Still within a margin of error but him being ahead is very different from her being some 9 points ahead of him in March.

With Clinton and Trump fighting each other while Sanders and the Democratic nomination are still around... Clinton will get bruised by Trump's attacks... and Sanders will have a better case to the super delegates come July. 

He could win this thing.


----------



## Logique

Trump just needs to get voters to turn out, to neutralize the black/Hispanic Democrat vote.

'Crooked Hillary' - Trump's label, that will stick.


----------



## basilio

There is an ongoing Court case against Trump University brought by some pretty unhappy clients. 

Essentially Trump University offered  hugely expensive short term real estate courses to enable people to "live the dream"

Price?  *The Elite Gold Package was $35,000 for a three day course.* What has come up in the court case has been the publication of the playbooks used by the sales staff to separate prospective suckers from their $35k. 

Examples.



> The playbook contains long sections telling Trump U team members how to identify buyers and push them to sign up for the most expensive package, and to put the cost on their credit cards.
> 
> “If they can afford the gold elite don’t allow them to think about doing anything besides the gold elite,” the document states.
> 
> If potential students hesitate, teachers are told to read this script.
> _*
> As one of your mentors for the last three days, it’s time for me to push you out of your comfort zone. It’s time for you to be 100% honest with yourself. You’ve had your entire adult life to accomplish your financial goals. I’m looking at your profile and you’re not even close to where you need to be, much less where you want to be. It’s time you fix your broken plan, bring in Mr. Trump’s top instructors and certified millionaire mentors and allow us to put you and keep you on the right track. Your plan is BROKEN and WE WILL help you fix it. Remember you have to be 100% honest with yourself!*_
> 
> Trump University staff are instructed in how to persuade students to put the cost of the course on their credit cards, even if they have just battled to pay off debts.
> _*
> Do you like living paycheck to paycheck? ... Do you enjoy seeing everyone else but yourself in their dream houses and driving their dreams cars with huge checking accounts? Those people saw an opportunity, and didn’t make excuses, like what you’re doing now.*_
> 
> Trump staff are told to spend lunch breaks in sign-up seminars “planting seeds” in potential students minds about how their lives won’t improve unless they join the programme. They are also told to ask students personal questions to discover weaknesses that could be exploited to help seal the deal.
> 
> _*    Collect personalized information that you can utilize during closing time. (For example: are they a single parent of three children that may need money for food? Or are they a middle-aged commuter that is tired of traveling for 2 hours to work each day?)*_




And surprise, surprise ?  Trump has turned around and attacked the presiding judge .



> *Trump hit back calling Curiel a “hater”, a “total disgrace” and “biased”. “I have a judge who is a hater of Donald Trump. A hater. He’s a hater,” Trump said at a rally near the courthouse in San Diego. “His name is Gonzalo Curiel. And he is not doing the right thing ... [He] happens to be, we believe, Mexican.”*




Truly, Trump is the spawn of the devil.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/31/donald-trump-university-playbook-real-estate-courses


----------



## basilio

Other Media has detailed further information on how Trump University pressured it's prospects. Powerful stuff.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/en..._574dff7ee4b0af73af95b726?section=austr  alia


----------



## wayneL

Damn I hope Trump wins. Then the USccan have its very own Berlusconi.

The perfect antidote to the Obama Zombie State years, hemorrhaging prestige to point of being a laughing stock


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Other Media has detailed further information on how Trump University pressured it's prospects. Powerful stuff.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/en..._574dff7ee4b0af73af95b726?section=austr  alia






Not sure if Trump being a con artist, pathological liar and all round prick and a nominee of a major party... that being scary or him also beating the other anointed leader in the polls being scarier.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Damn I hope Trump wins. Then the USccan have its very own Berlusconi.
> 
> The perfect antidote to the Obama Zombie State years, hemorrhaging prestige to point of being a laughing stock




Sifu, you saw how Obama went to Hiroshima and seriously says we must all find the courage to live in a nuclear-weapons free world. 

NATO is busy fencing in Russia, activating missile defense system in a couple of its dependencies; the Middle East is all blown the bits; Africa they just got started on; China they're just starting to find ways to deal with... then he thought it's a good idea to start spending $1Trillion on smaller nukes... all to make the world nuclear-weapons free 

Then topping it all off, the reign will soon be handed over to either a con artist with no clue or the other con artist with serious ambition. 

I think it'd be a miracle of the humanity could get out of this century alive.


----------



## DB008

basilio said:


> There is an ongoing Court case against Trump University brought by some pretty unhappy clients.
> 
> Essentially Trump University offered  hugely expensive short term real estate courses to enable people to "live the dream"
> 
> Price?  *The Elite Gold Package was $35,000 for a three day course.* What has come up in the court case has been the publication of the playbooks used by the sales staff to separate prospective suckers from their $35k.
> 
> Examples.
> 
> And surprise, surprise ?  Trump has turned around and attacked the presiding judge .
> 
> Truly, Trump is the spawn of the devil.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/31/donald-trump-university-playbook-real-estate-courses





*Stunning Hidden Agendas Exposed – Trump University Lawsuit Brought By Firm Who Paid $675,000 To Bill and Hillary Clinton…​*


> Research by Lawnewz has discovered the legal firm behind the Trump civil action lawsuit paid Bill and Hillary Clinton massive amounts of money for speeches and advocacy during and after Hillary Clinton’s tenure as Secretary of State:
> 
> Donald Trump has undoubtedly made the class action lawsuit against Trump University a prime campaign issue. For the last several days, he has been on a tear against federal Judge Gonzolo Curiel who is overseeing one of the class action lawsuits against Trump University. In the lawsuit, former students claim that the University and Trump violated federal law by luring them to sign up with false promises and then defrauded them once they handed over their checks.
> 
> LawNewz.com discovered that when it comes to politics, Robbins Gellar Rudman & Dowd, the law firm behind the class action lawsuit, is not exactly neutral either. Our analysis, using data compiled by The Washington Post, found that Robbins Gellar Rudman & Dowd paid the Clintons a total of $675,000 in fees for speeches since 2009. Hillary Clinton gave a speech for the law firm as recently as September 4, 2014.
> 
> Bill Clinton also gave a speech for the same fee back in 2014, and another one in 2009 before the firm had been renamed (they used to be called Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins LLP). In fact, of the five law firms that paid for Clintons to speak in the last few years, Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd paid out the most money.





https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/05/31/stunning-hidden-agendas-exposed-trump-university-lawsuit-brought-by-firm-who-paid-675000-to-bill-and-hillary-clinton/​


----------



## basilio

Yeah DB008. Fascinating piece of dribble from frothing mouths of the far, far, FAR Right.

Couple of points

1) The cases against Donald Trumps phony "University"  courses go back 6 years plus. They began because bascially it was a very sharp operation.  How sharp ?

2) What did the former managers of the operation say?


> *Former Trump University Workers Call the School a ‘Lie’ and a ‘Scheme’ in Testimony*
> 
> By MICHAEL BARBARO and STEVE EDERMAY 31, 2016
> Continue reading the main story
> Share This Page
> 
> 
> In blunt testimony revealed on Tuesday, former managers of Trump University, the for-profit school started by Donald J. Trump, portray it as an unscrupulous business that relied on high-pressure sales tactics, employed unqualified instructors, made deceptive claims and exploited vulnerable students willing to pay tens of thousands for Mr. Trump’s insights.
> *
> One sales manager for Trump University, Ronald Schnackenberg, recounted how he was reprimanded for not pushing a financially struggling couple hard enough to sign up for a $35,000 real estate class, despite his conclusion that it would endanger their economic future. He watched with disgust, he said, as a fellow Trump University salesman persuaded the couple to purchase the class anyway*.
> 
> “I believe that Trump University was a fraudulent scheme,” Mr. Schnackenberg wrote in his testimony, “and that it preyed upon the elderly and uneducated to separate them from their money.”
> 
> For Mr. Trump, whose presidential campaign hinges on his reputation as a businessman, the newly unsealed documents offer an unflattering snapshot of his career since branching out, over the past decade, from building skyscrapers into endeavors that cashed in on his name to sell everything from water and steaks to ties and education.
> 
> The release of the documents on Tuesday, under court order, was the latest turn in a federal lawsuit, filed in California by dissatisfied former Trump University students, that has bedeviled the businessman since 2010 and could trail him into the White House if he is elected president.
> 
> Mr. Trump, who started the university in 2005, owned 93 percent of the now-defunct company. From the start, he acted as its chief promoter, rather than day-to-day manager, selling it as a tool of financial empowerment that would improve life for thousands of ordinary Americans. It would, he said, “teach you better than the best business school,” according to the transcript of a Web video.
> 
> Within the documents made public Tuesday were internal employee guides encouraging customers with little money to pay for the tuition with their credit cards. “We teach the technique of using OPM ... Other People’s Money,” explained the internal instructions for salespeople. The documents pushed employees to exploit the emotions of potential customers. “Let them know you’ve found an answer to their problems,” read confidential instructions to salespeople.
> 
> *The most striking documents were written testimony from former employees of Trump University who said they had become disenchanted with the university’s tactics and culture. Corrine Sommer, an event manager, recounted how colleagues encouraged students to open up as many credit cards as possible to pay for classes that many of them could not afford.*




http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/us/politics/donald-trump-university.html

I also find his abuse of the presiding judge in the case unbelievable ! Surely there are laws about contempt of court in America?


----------



## basilio

Earlier it was suggested by Wayne that Donald Trump could be the American answer to Silvia Berlusconi.

Absolutely. In fact one of the points of comparison was that  it appeared Berlusconi went into politics" to save his companies from bankruptcy and himself from convictions". 

Yep definite similarities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Silvio_Berlusconi


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Earlier it was suggested by Wayne that Donald Trump could be the American answer to Silvia Berlusconi.
> 
> Absolutely. In fact one of the points of comparison was that  it appeared Berlusconi went into politics" to save his companies from bankruptcy and himself from convictions".
> 
> Yep definite similarities.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Silvio_Berlusconi




At least it won't be boring when the irrelevancy of American politics is shoved down our throat, like the mind numbing stupefaction (tautology intentional) engendered by the "Yes We Can" farce.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> At least it won't be boring when the irrelevancy of American politics is shoved down our throat, like the mind numbing stupefaction (tautology intentional) engendered by the "Yes We Can" farce.




So you want to wipe out the Obama governments legacy on the strength of a 2008 election slogan ?

And you think that replacing that political  operating system with a full fledged bullying psychopath is a neat way of making life less boring ?

Really hope this isn't the case..


----------



## basilio

More choice reporting on the fraud that was Trump University. This time it comes from the staff who in the end couldn't stomach the lies they had to tell and the people they had to destroy to make their commissions and the millions for Donald Trump.



> * A 'total lie': Trump University ex-staffers condemn school as 'fraudulent scheme'*
> 
> Testimony from three former employees in class-action lawsuit lambasts school that ‘preyed upon the elderly and uneducated’
> Former staffers at Trump University condemned the school as a ‘total lie’. Photograph: Joe Raedle/Getty Images
> 
> Rupert Neate in New York
> @RupertNeate
> 
> Thursday 2 June 2016 04.52 AEST
> 
> Some of the harshest critics of Trump University have been revealed to be former employees of the now-defunct university majority-owned by Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican US presidential candidate.
> Trump University 'playbooks' offer glimpse of ruthless business practices
> 
> In sworn testimony, three former staff members have described the real estate school as “a facade, a total lie” and a “fraudulent scheme” that “preyed upon the elderly and uneducated to separate them from their money”.
> 
> In extracts from their evidence to a class-action lawsuit against the school, made public this week, the former staff tell the inside story of the “front-end high-pressure speaker scam” at Trump University.
> 
> Ronald Schnackenberg, who worked at Trump University’s headquarters on Wall Street between 2006 and 2007, said he felt compelled to resign because he thought the company was “engaging in misleading, fraudulent and dishonest conduct”.




http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/01/trump-university-staff-testimony-fraudulent-scheme

Apparently the case is scheduled to come to trial on 28th November - three weeks after the election. If Trump wants to be vindicated maybe he should ask for the trial to be brought forward a few months. 

Maybe the Republician Party would also like to reconsider their nominee.

(And Pigs WILL fly )


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> So you want to wipe out the Obama governments legacy on the strength of a 2008 election slogan ?
> 
> And you think that replacing that political  operating system with a full fledged bullying psychopath is a neat way of making life less boring ?
> 
> Really hope this isn't the case..




I don't think Obama's Administration will be looked back on with much to praise about.

On practically every measure of progress, his admin is a disaster.

Civil rights - Obama deported more Mexicans/South Americans than all previous presidents combined. Most of these aren't just illegals but are refugees fleeing violence, such as the overthrow of Honduras with his and Clinton's support.

Watching American independent news tells me there's now literally millions of those without proper document living in fear of being raided and taken to ICE to be deported.

Then there's the law his admin enacted to permit the military to pick up any American on US soil and taken away - without lawyer, without charge. That's against the Constitution and there are groups that sue his Admin for it, but he managed to get the higher courts to overrule that.

With the environment... just talks and nice speeches but they ramp up fracking, push to export the technology worldwide; XL Keystone pipeline that he vetoed are not done for the environment as we're told.


Then there's the escalating wars all over the ME, with Russia; the drone wars and its collateral damages as well as damaging mere suspect. 

And forget about Wall St and its "regulations"... he practically gave all the bankers what they wanted; Or Healthcare... practically written by the insurance companies.

A good example of how much Obama cares is when he went to Flint, drank its filtered water and say it's safe to drink - just not safe for children under six or pregnant women, but safe. wtf? 

When you see that people's hair are falling out, children are being lead poisoned; and the caused was the water and now the leeching lead and decaying/rusted pipes... you don't go and take a sip from a filtered cup and say all is fine... then say in two years their system will be replaced. There is such as thing as temporary piping; and water are being used to wash and showered too, not just drink.

It's quite a disgrace actually.


----------



## basilio

*Making Real   Estate money the Trump way*



> Retired Navy veteran Felicisimo Limon loved Trump and believed the billionaire wanted him to achieve success, but after charging $26,000 to his credit card to enroll himself and his wife in the program in 2008, he now feels differently.
> 
> Limon describes the course material as useless and devoid of any advanced real estate techniques. *The one tip he does recall came from an instructor who detailed the benefits of paying off unpaid tax debts of elderly people ”” keeping them in their homes until they die ”” but then taking ownership of their properties.*
> 
> “When I saw that teaching, you had to steal somebody’s house? This is not right,” Limon said. “We were ripped off



.”

http://centuryfoxnews.com/index.php...nder-oath-trump-universitys-promises-crumble/


----------



## basilio

"If you can't beat em* bribe *em"

Did you ever wonder why only a couple of state Attorney Generals decided to prosecute Donald Trump for his scam "university" course? 

Simple actually. He made BIG donations to the other AG's and they dutifully decided not to prosecute. In fact one of them wants to be his running mate. 



> As scores of students complained that Trump University was a ripoff, the Better Business Bureau in 2010 gave the school a D-minus, its second-lowest grade. State regulators also began to take notice.
> 
> Besides the probe that led to Attorney General Schneiderman's suit in New York, *the office of then-Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, a Republican, opened a civil investigation of "possibly deceptive trade practices." Abbott's probe was quietly dropped in 2010 when Trump University agreed to end its operations in Texas. Trump subsequently donated $35,000 to Abbott's successful gubernatorial campaign, according to records.
> *
> A spokesman for Abbott, now Texas governor, declined to comment.
> 
> Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi briefly considered joining with Schneiderman in a multi-state suit against Trump University. *Three days after Bondi's spokeswoman was quoted in local media reports as saying the office was reviewing the New York lawsuit, the Donald J. Trump Foundation made a $25,000 contribution to a political fundraising committee supporting Bondi's re-election campaign. Bondi, a Republican, soon dropped her investigation, citing insufficient grounds to proceed. *




http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6744...university-model-sell-hard-demand-see-warrant


----------



## wayneL

So I take it you're voting for Hillary bas?


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> So I take it you're voting for Hillary bas?




Absolutely anything is possible.  We are back in the 1930's again "heil hitler"  and people in growing numbers feeling the state of poverty will do anything for the greatest clear noise maker.  And thats trumps.


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> Absolutely anything is possible.  We are back in the 1930's again "heil hitler"  and people in growing numbers feeling the state of poverty will do anything for the greatest clear noise maker.  And thats trumps.




WHOOOOOSH!


----------



## DB008

explod said:


> Absolutely anything is possible.  We are back in the 1930's again "heil hitler"  and people in growing numbers feeling the state of poverty will do anything for the greatest clear noise maker.  And thats trumps.




What a crazy statement.


*CLINTON USED AT&T EMAIL AS A SENATOR​*


> Hillary Clinton served as a U.S. Senator from New York from January 3, 2001 to January 21, 2009. A newly released testimony from Hillary’s aide swore that she used a personal AT&T email account for official business as a Senator, and the practice continued once she became the helm of the State Department!
> The name of this saving grace aide, Cheryl Mills, was Mrs. Clinton’s chief of staff while she was head of the State Department. She stated that Clinton began to use the AT&T email account to access all official work-related and confidential emails from early in her Senator career, all the way up until 3 months into her Secretary of State position. Sad!
> 
> The confession by Ms. Mills’ comes at a perfect time ”” the FBI is still in the depths of investigating Mrs. Clinton’s unsecured usage of email accounts while Secretary of State. It was first discovered three years ago that Mrs. Clinton had all of her emails stored at the domain “clintonemail.com” instead of using the account that was provided and secured by the government.
> 
> Ms. Mills stated just this last Friday, May 27th, that “Secretary Clinton continued a practice that she was using of [sic] her personal email.” The remarks were released by Judicial Watch, who is in the process of suing the State Department over her use of the “clintonemail.com” domain.





http://regated.com/2016/06/clinton-used-att-email-account-senator/​


----------



## explod

DB008 said:


> What a crazy statement.
> 
> ]




Do you understand that over 50 million Americans rely on Government food stamps for survival.  That thier real unemployment rate is more than 20%.  That US unemployment figures do not include those who have been out of work more than 12 months and that part time jobs,  even a few hours per week,  are counted as a job.  A good survey of GDP shows that 80%of thiers is public consumtion made possible only by loans made for the spend out of promisss unbaked by any assets. 

What is served up on main street media is for the mugs heading into the  financial slaughter house. 

Worth reading up on the great depression in my view.


----------



## luutzu

explod said:


> Do you understand that over 50 million Americans rely on Government food stamps for survival.  That thier real unemployment rate is more than 20%.  That US unemployment figures do not include those who have been out of work more than 12 months and that part time jobs,  even a few hours per week,  are counted as a job.  A good survey of GDP shows that 80%of thiers is public consumtion made possible only by loans made for the spend out of promisss unbaked by any assets.
> 
> What is served up on main street media is for the mugs heading into the  financial slaughter house.
> 
> Worth reading up on the great depression in my view.




If they don't redefine the definition, the US and most of the world are already in another Great Depression.


btw, some new poll show that people distrust Clinton more than Trump. Can't blame them, but it is scary that they're going into an election with the two most hated and most distrusted candidates.

Though I think the FBI will indict Clinton soon and Sanders will win this thing.


----------



## basilio

The new President of the Philippines is one Rodrigo Duterte.  This guy makes Donald Trump look like a God Fearing Pacifist and he takes centre stage on June 30th.

Short story is he intends an all out war on criminals, druggies and other reprobates. He proposes executing 100,000 criminals and has already started by encouraging people to kill drug dealers themselves if they have a gun. He has been the mayor of Davio City and in his time thousands of people have been killed in vigilante killings.

Will be interesting to see how if this new political situation "normalise" extreme behaviour and vigilantism .  I wonder what Trump will say ?  
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-10/rodrigo-duterte-wins-philippine-presidential-vote/7399658



> *New President of the Philippines Says Citizens Who Kill Drug Dealers Will Get Medals
> *
> By Tess Owen
> June 6, 2016 | 5:50 am
> 
> The tough-talking president-elect of the Philippines has an aggressive new strategy to fight crime: Citizens who shoot and kill drug dealers will be given medals.
> 
> Rodrigo Duterte celebrated his recent presidential victory in the southern city of Davao on Saturday night, and, in a nationally televised speech, he warned about the dangers of the booming illegal drug trade and told regular Filipinos what they can do to help.
> 
> "Please feel free to call us, the police, or do it yourself if you have the gun, you have my support," Duterte said.



https://news.vice.com/article/new-p...itizens-who-kill-drug-dealers-will-get-medals


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> The new President of the Philippines is one Rodrigo Duterte.  This guy makes Donald Trump look like a God Fearing Pacifist and he takes centre stage on June 30th.
> 
> Short story is he intends an all out war on criminals, druggies and other reprobates. He proposes executing 100,000 criminals and has already started by encouraging people to kill drug dealers themselves if they have a gun. He has been the mayor of Davio City and in his time thousands of people have been killed in vigilante killings.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how if this new political situation "normalise" extreme behaviour and vigilantism .  I wonder what Trump will say ?
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-10/rodrigo-duterte-wins-philippine-presidential-vote/7399658
> 
> 
> https://news.vice.com/article/new-p...itizens-who-kill-drug-dealers-will-get-medals




I'll give him about six months before someone decides to shoot him.


----------



## Craton

SirRumpole said:


> I'll give him about six months before someone decides to shoot him.



My guess is that Trump already as a big, fat, juicy target well and truly stamped on him. Be unbackable odds on if he's elected prez.


----------



## SirRumpole

Craton said:


> My guess is that Trump already as a big, fat, juicy target well and truly stamped on him. Be unbackable odds on if he's elected prez.




I was actually talking about Duerte, but still any US prez is a prime target for loonies.


----------



## qldfrog

SirRumpole said:


> I was actually talking about Duerte, but still any US prez is a prime target for loonies.



or for the 1000's of top level corrupts who might risk big if Duerte keeps his promises..
which he did locally: I saw an interesting report on him;
=> cleaning up his town, with a few casualties, offending the do-goods who always prefer to count the executed thugs but forgot the murdered, raped and victims of the same thugs when they are left rampaging...
These victims should be happy that they died within a civilised society as opposed to alive in such a demoniac nightmare...Ok I am a bit provocative but...


----------



## SirRumpole

qldfrog said:


> or for the 1000's of top level corrupts who might risk big if Duerte keeps his promises..
> which he did locally: I saw an interesting report on him;
> => cleaning up his town, with a few casualties, offending the do-goods who always prefer to count the executed thugs but forgot the murdered, raped and victims of the same thugs when they are left rampaging...
> These victims should be happy that they died within a civilised society as opposed to alive in such a demoniac nightmare...Ok I am a bit provocative but...




So do people actually have to prove that the guy they shoot is a drug dealer ?

You may be a drug dealer yourself and your neighbor finds out so you shoot him and plant some drugs on the body.

Bngo, you're a hero !


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> So do people actually have to prove that the guy they shoot is a drug dealer ?
> 
> You may be a drug dealer yourself and your neighbor finds out so you shoot him and plant some drugs on the body.
> 
> Bngo, you're a hero !




Just a nightmare. Unfettered vigilante behaviour, no need for police, courts, evidence, appeals.  Just a rush of blood or a creative way to get rid of someone you don't like and you get a medal from El Presidente. Truly madness. 

______________________________________

I wonder how the tourist industry will take to having lot's of random shootups ? What happen when the first foreign tourists get shot up because they get in between dealers, or use a bit or whatever ? This guy is such a loose cannon.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Just a nightmare. Unfettered vigilante behaviour, no need for police, courts, evidence, appeals.  Just a rush of blood or a creative way to get rid of someone you don't like and you get a medal from El Presidente. Truly madness.
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> I wonder how the tourist industry will take to having lot's of random shootups ? What happen when the first foreign tourists get shot up because they get in between dealers, or use a bit or whatever ? This guy is such a loose cannon.




I guess he's getting ideas from 350.org


----------



## CanOz

Love this guy....


----------



## Gringotts Bank

God the media are stupid.  

Melania Trump copied many key phrases from Michelle Obama's speech.

Media's response?  "Oh ... look!  How could she think she'd get away with that!"  Then they play a series of videos clips switching back and forth between the two speaking the same words.    

Result?  Melania's image is now associated with the position of first lady.  Very clever tactics by someone behind the scenes.  

And everyone at home watches the news... and they watch _this _story very closely because they're told someone copied someone else.  So the audiences' attention is primed.  Attention/re-association.  Job done.  Now millions will start thinking "hmm, Melania as first lady... doesn't seem so unusual!  I like it!"... *and they won't have a clue why.*

[I don't know anything about Melania as a person - the post is about media stupidity].


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> God the media are stupid.
> 
> Melania Trump copied many key phrases from Michelle Obama's speech.
> 
> Media's response?  "Oh ... look!  How could she think she'd get away with that!"  Then they play a series of videos clips switching back and forth between the two speaking the same words.
> 
> Result?  Melania's image is now associated with the position of first lady.  Very clever tactics by someone behind the scenes.
> 
> And everyone at home watches the news... and they watch _this _story very closely because they're told someone copied someone else.  So the audiences' attention is primed.  Attention/re-association.  Job done.  Now millions will start thinking "hmm, Melania as first lady... doesn't seem so unusual!  I like it!"... *and they won't have a clue why.*
> 
> [I don't know anything about Melania as a person - the post is about media stupidity].




Good stuff GB, i like it!


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> God the media are stupid.
> 
> Melania Trump copied many key phrases from Michelle Obama's speech.
> 
> Media's response?  "Oh ... look!  How could she think she'd get away with that!"  Then they play a series of videos clips switching back and forth between the two speaking the same words.
> 
> Result?  Melania's image is now associated with the position of first lady.  Very clever tactics by someone behind the scenes.
> 
> And everyone at home watches the news... and they watch _this _story very closely because they're told someone copied someone else.  So the audiences' attention is primed.  Attention/re-association.  Job done.  Now millions will start thinking "hmm, Melania as first lady... doesn't seem so unusual!  I like it!"... *and they won't have a clue why.*
> 
> [I don't know anything about Melania as a person - the post is about media stupidity].




It's what you do when you want to keep attention away from the vile, racist, warmongering speeches and platform that also goes on full display during the day.

This America is like a Titanic seeing icebergs. Full steam ahead.


----------



## qldfrog

indeed who cares ? Really? the speech of the wife of a candidate probably not even written by the lady in question...


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> indeed who cares ? Really? the speech of the wife of a candidate probably not even written by the lady in question...




true, we shouldn't care what Trump's trophy wife said, well, read.

But it highlight the fact that all these politicians are just glorified news anchor reading whatever is put in front of them.

Got to wonder who's really writing the speeches and policies to be rubber stamped by our paid spoke people. 

Man, at least when we watch the news or the ads, the corporation paid their actors. Here the plebs paid for everything and get nothing but nice words in return for the trouble.


----------



## basilio

What a xxxxing  insanity ...  Donald Trump as Presidential nominee. A surreal Republican Convention with screams for Hilary Clinton to be shot for treason or hung in a tree.

Three Months of abusive, maddening lies masquerading as debate to come.  Truly if there is any karma Donald Trump will not be long with us.

Great, dark comic insight on this collective insanity by First Dog on the Moon.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-facts-to-a-republican-national-convention.


_*"Realise that when you need Hilary Clinton to save you you are in serious trouble "*_


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> What a xxxxing  insanity ...  Donald Trump as Presidential nominee. A surreal Republican Convention with screams for Hilary Clinton to be shot for treason or hung in a tree.
> 
> Three Months of abusive, maddening lies masquerading as debate to come.  Truly if there is any karma Donald Trump will not be long with us.
> 
> Great, dark comic insight on this collective insanity by First Dog on the Moon.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-facts-to-a-republican-national-convention.
> 
> 
> _*"Realise that when you need Hilary Clinton to save you you are in serious trouble "*_




It is scary.

I saw clips of Ted Cruz - a guy who hasn't met any Arab state he doesn't like to carpet bomb - and he's the only guy that sound reasonable. Then he got booeeeddd... for telling people to vote with their conscience.

What's even scarier is that Trump is either tie or winning against Clinton in critical swing states.

And what's also scary is that if Hillary wins, it's not going to be any better than it has been - will probably get worst.


----------



## Wysiwyg

luutzu said:


> What's even scarier is that Trump is either tie or winning against Clinton in critical swing states.



Yes I have seen that Trump is getting more media time. The people in the crowd at his performances amazes me. Taking photos, giving him the thumbs up and cheering a handful of words he utters. Farrkkkk, I have never seen so many yanks in a trance like that.


----------



## wayneL

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes I have seen that Trump is getting more media time. The people in the crowd at his performances amazes me. Taking photos, giving him the thumbs up and cheering a handful of words he utters. Farrkkkk, I have never seen so many yanks in a trance like that.




So you've never observed an American election before.... standard MO over there mate.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> What a xxxxing  insanity ...  Donald Trump as Presidential nominee. A surreal Republican Convention with screams for Hilary Clinton to be shot for treason or hung in a tree.
> 
> Three Months of abusive, maddening lies masquerading as debate to come.  Truly if there is any karma Donald Trump will not be long with us.
> 
> Great, dark comic insight on this collective insanity by First Dog on the Moon.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-facts-to-a-republican-national-convention.
> 
> 
> _*"Realise that when you need Hilary Clinton to save you you are in serious trouble "*_




Careful bas your true colours are showing.

Whatever The Donald is or isn't bas, he is symptomatic of a revulsion and swing away from your brand of politics, same with Brexit, same with the mess in our Senate.

Basically, people have had a gutful of you lot.


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> Careful bas your true colours are showing.
> 
> Whatever The Donald is or isn't bas, he is symptomatic of a revulsion and swing away from your brand of politics, same with Brexit, same with the mess in our Senate.
> 
> Basically, people have had a gutful of *you lot*.




Is our "lot" the masses that don't want a lying, cheating, self serving buffoon of a man as the leader of the free world.

Save your Basilio bashing for the "Resisting Climate Hysteria " thread where your "lot", the flat earth brigade are doing an excellent job.


----------



## basilio

> Whatever The Donald is or isn't bas, he is symptomatic of a revulsion and swing away from your brand of politics, same with Brexit, same with the mess in our Senate. Wayne




That's pretty crazy stuff even for you Wayne.

We have one of the most aggressive, dangerous  megalomaniacs vying for Presidency of the most powerful country on Earth.   He has poisoned political debate and peoples minds to the point that even when it's clear he is lying it doesn't seem to matter. 

*And yet somehow you think he needs support because he is not the Democrats ?  Not Hilary Clinton ?* 

This is madness Wayne.  No true conservative could conceive of supporting Donald Trump.  The damage he would do as President would destroy Americas standing and influence for decades to come.  Truly it reminds me of Hitlers rise to power as the German response to the Depression


----------



## basilio

Jon Stewart returns to look at support for Donald Trump.

Fascinating to see how Fox News trashed President Obama for being out of touch, using a Teleprompter, not being "Christian" - and then supported Trump... Priceless


----------



## DB008

So, Trump wants to do the following things;


Boot out 'illegal Mexicans'. Well, they are in the country illegally. Come through the front door legally, no problem. I don't see how this is racist (although the left seem to think this is racist)
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform


Obamacare - repeal and fix it. I work with 2 Americans. They pay around $600 a month for healthcare. Crazy.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform


Build a proper border, like Israel/Hungary. Nope, that's racist.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/pay-for-the-wall


Tax reform. Similarities between Australia and America. Loopholes galore and currently lots of tax brackets. Time to fix it.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/tax-reform



Look after Vets. Why not, they served their time and put their lives on the line.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/veterans-administration-reforms


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> Is our "lot" the masses that don't want a lying, cheating, self serving buffoon of a man as the leader of the free world.




No thats our lot who are sick of the Obamas and Hillarys, 

Let's not forget Hillary's record in this regard Quacker



> Save your Basilio bashing for the "Resisting Climate Hysteria " thread where your "lot", the flat earth brigade are doing an excellent job.




My good manners prevents me from urging you to perform an impossible auto-erotic act, so instead I will (a) draw your attention to the monumental hypocrisy in your statement and (b) invite you to add something of scientific substance to that debate... Alas, that is most likely beyond your capabilities.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> That's pretty crazy stuff even for you Wayne.
> 
> We have one of the most aggressive, dangerous  megalomaniacs vying for Presidency of the most powerful country on Earth.   He has poisoned political debate and peoples minds to the point that even when it's clear he is lying it doesn't seem to matter.
> 
> *And yet somehow you think he needs support because he is not the Democrats ?  Not Hilary Clinton ?*
> 
> This is madness Wayne.  No true conservative could conceive of supporting Donald Trump.  The damage he would do as President would destroy Americas standing and influence for decades to come.  Truly it reminds me of Hitlers rise to power as the German response to the Depression




It's not crazy bas, its an observation. Try not to draw too many conclusions from limited information, it is your biggest fault.

BTW, I am not a conservative so couldn't give a stuff what "trrue conservatives" think.


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> That's pretty crazy stuff even for you Wayne.
> 
> We have one of the most aggressive, dangerous  megalomaniacs vying for Presidency of the most powerful country on Earth.   He has poisoned political debate and peoples minds to the point that even when it's clear he is lying it doesn't seem to matter.
> 
> *And yet somehow you think he needs support because he is not the Democrats ?  Not Hilary Clinton ?*
> 
> This is madness Wayne.  No true conservative could conceive of supporting Donald Trump.  The damage he would do as President would destroy Americas standing and influence for decades to come.  Truly it reminds me of Hitlers rise to power as the German response to the Depression




Bas, with all your huffing and puffing about Donald Trump it will be the people of the USA who will decide if he becomes the next US President and there is little you can do about it.

Be thankful the US, like Australia, are both democratic countries and if enough people believe we should stop Muslim immigration into our countries they will, as in Australia, vote for it....I know you, as well as the Greens and 50 Labor MPs,  would be happy to see illegals immigrants flooding into Australia again but it ain't gonna happen in the next 3 years....So I am afraid you will have to suck it up if Trump becomes President, as has the Greens and the socialist have had to do in Aus.

With all the radical Muslim activities going on around the world, The Muslims will help Trump get over the line just as they have helped Pauline Hanson here in Australia gain momentum.....The Muslims are not very bright I am afraid to say.

Trump wants to bring back true values to the USA, something Obama, and I am sure Clinton have forgotten. 

Go Trump!!


----------



## Logique

wayneL said:


> No thats our lot who are sick of the Obamas and Hillarys,
> Let's not forget Hillary's record in this regard Quacker
> My good manners prevents me from urging you to perform an impossible auto-erotic act, so instead I will (a) draw your attention to the monumental hypocrisy in your statement and (b) invite you to add something of scientific substance to that debate... Alas, that is most likely beyond your capabilities.



I cannot believe that any rational US voter would willingly put Hillary and Bill back into the oval office.  "What were we thinking", the US voters would ultimately say. But by then the Clintons would be entrenched. Read up on Imelda and Ferdinand Marcos. "Crooked Hillary", as Trump names her.



> Political fools and the American election - July 23, 2016 by Steve Kates
> http://catallaxyfiles.com/2016/07/23/political-fools-and-the-american-election/
> 
> ..*the choice of Hillary is to choose evil* and the almost immediate decay and destruction of the American Republic. Four supreme court picks and an open border naturialisation policy will mean no Republican ever becomes president again. Out past 2020, the nature of the US becomes almost unimaginable.


----------



## DB008

Did someone say the recent Wikileaks dump was bad?


----------



## orr

basilio said:


> Jon Stewart returns to look at support for Donald Trump.
> 
> Fascinating to see how Fox News trashed President Obama for being out of touch, using a Teleprompter, not being "Christian" - and then supported Trump... Priceless





Gold...
Up until now I'd only seen the shortened clip, but the context given by excoriating the likes of Hegarty to the moral and intellectual nonentities they are... Gold... It's lucky for them that their exists the credulous in the commercial numbers necessary to absorb their 'offerings', Mix this with the attention spans of gold fish and the capacity for critical reasoning of equine dung... but their you go, they are out there.   
As  hard as it is to think that some thinking individual  would volunteer to line themselves up to this type of group, as evidenced by the fact that the greater power base of the GOP don't, They are _'out there'. _

The Washington Post's completely accurate observation of 'Drumphs' nomination expectance... 'A Creepy Fascist Infomercial':

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2016/07/22/donald-trumps-creepy-fascist-infomercial/


----------



## SirRumpole

Is Trump a Russian spy ?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...h-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Is Trump a Russian spy ?
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...h-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html




Oh yea, the Siberian Candidate. Na... they're both the Manchurian Candidate (Denzel Washington version, with Manchuria being Manchuria Inc.).

It'd be interesting to see how much longer a democracy can go on once the people starts to distrust and despise all thing establishment. The Americans been hating it for at least a couple decades now... and each time they were promised hope and change through different variety of presidents. 

Can't keep doing that and get away with it forever. As Bush Jr. said, you me once shame on you; fool me twice and a fool can never be fool again...


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Is Trump a Russian spy ?
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...h-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html




I cannot recall where I derived it from because it was too far back but there was a prediction made that Russia and the USA would one day combine forces to go to war with China who was purported to be the aggressor following a deep recession in the Chinese  economy and sometimes a recession can be the catalyst for war.


----------



## basilio

The SMH article highlighted the influence of the Russians on American politics.  It seems they were behind the Wikileaks information from the Democrats. 

It is certainly in Russia's interest to separate the US from Europe, break down NATO and encourage an authoritarian isolationist USA.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> The SMH article highlighted the influence of the Russians on American politics.  It seems they were behind the Wikileaks information from the Democrats.
> 
> It is certainly in Russia's interest to separate the US from Europe, break down NATO and encourage an authoritarian isolationist USA.



Well  the US and Europe attitudes vs Russia was not one even remotely fair;
Have you forgotten the russian plane bombing IS but shot down by our turkish friend to protect their arms and oil trade with the islamists, that same 'ally' now purging Turkey from any opposition, secular or not;
The US army is a generation behind, still want to fight the Ruskis as in the good old time ; the US contributed a big way to the Poutine rise in power IMHO.
Fair to give the US a bit of their own medecine.


----------



## Logique

SirRumpole said:


> Is Trump a Russian spy ?
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...h-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html



That's right the Kremlin loves Republicans. Far more alarming is the strong possibility that Putin has a slew of spearfished personal emails from Hillary's private server, from 2013 onwards.   

These would be a potent weapon to manipulate or blackmail a Clinton Presidency.

In 2014, Hillary compared Putin to Adolf Hitler. Given that 20 million Soviets died fighting the Nazi regime, this was not diplomacy at it's finest, nor does it augur well for the future relationship under a Clinton Presidency.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> That's right the Kremlin loves Republicans. Far more alarming is the strong possibility that Putin has a slew of spearfished personal emails from Hillary's private server, from 2013 onwards.
> 
> These would be a potent weapon to manipulate or blackmail a Clinton Presidency.
> 
> In 2014, Hillary compared Putin to Adolf Hitler. Given that 20 million Soviets died fighting the Nazi regime, this was not diplomacy at it's finest, nor does it augur well for the future relationship under a Clinton Presidency.




It appears the Russians are actively supporting Trump, (according to the Democrats), releasing emails they had nicked of their activities just before the convention. I suppose they are hoping Trump will weaken NATO as he promised.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...leaked-democrats-emails-to-help-donald-trump/


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> That's right the Kremlin loves Republicans. Far more alarming is the strong possibility that Putin has a slew of spearfished personal emails from Hillary's private server, from 2013 onwards.
> 
> These would be a potent weapon to manipulate or blackmail a Clinton Presidency.
> 
> In 2014, Hillary compared Putin to Adolf Hitler. Given that 20 million Soviets died fighting the Nazi regime, this was not diplomacy at it's finest, nor does it augur well for the future relationship under a Clinton Presidency.




Good point. The Russian probably prefer a Clinton presidency given all those emails they've hacked from her server.

But say the Russian prefer Trump, the Chinese would prefer Clinton - if anything she'd keep NATO busy and US forces away from the Pacific.

But all these are insane. A president can't just snap their fingers and policies get changed. Other greater powers are at the helm.


----------



## qldfrog

luutzu said:


> A president can't just snap their fingers and policies get changed. Other greater powers are at the helm.



True here luutzu, i have doubts at the real power of the elected president/senate/congress in the US; this is onereason Trump has support but even he is elected, no sure he will be able to do much


----------



## basilio

qldfrog said:


> True here luutzu, i have doubts at the real power of the elected president/senate/congress in the US; this is onereason Trump has support but even he is elected, no sure he will be able to do much




In theory I would agree with you. But I think Trump is such a megalomaniac we could see extreme measures taken that would be previously unthinkable.

The other issue is the effects his announcements and possible Presidency would have on many situations. Banning travel by all Muslims, trying to make NATO countries pay more for security, championing the break up of the EU, talking up trade wars. Just the fallout from these conversations alone will cause trouble. For example I wouldn't be surprised if efforts are made to create an alternative to the US dollar  as the go to currency as a response to an aggressive USA.

Overall he has no respect for democratic processes so don't be surprised if literally anything happens.


----------



## Logique

A venal virago and an intern fiddler, that's who we need to lead the free world. 

Boris J. was right the first time. First woman President, that won't be the only demographic first, will it Julia.  

Nurse Rached..a good novel, over the cuckoos nest we fly..



> *Boris Johnson once compared Hillary Clinton to* '*a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital*'
> Mayor of London hastily tries to make amends for comparing the potential next president of the United States to Lady Macbeth
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...to-a-sadistic-nurse-in-a-mental-hospital.html


----------



## Macquack

qldfrog said:


> True here luutzu, i have doubts at the real power of the elected president/senate/congress in the US; this is onereason Trump has support but even he is elected, *no sure he will be able to do much*




The only thing he will be able to do is make the rich (mainly himself) richer and the poor will get the picture (as usual).

The Trumpster is no saviour for the average American. He is their enemy number one.


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> The only thing he will be able to do is make the rich (mainly himself) richer and the poor will get the picture (as usual).
> 
> The Trumpster is no saviour for the average American. He is their enemy number one.




His daughter said he's a "blue collar billionaire". The kind of bs they're selling these political hacks.


----------



## basilio

One day after his nomination as Republican nominee The Washington Post has condemned Donald Trump as a "unique threat to American democracy".

The Editorial vivisects him. 



> *Donald Trump is a unique threat to American democracy*
> 
> DONALD J. TRUMP, until now a Republican problem, this week became a challenge the nation must confront and overcome. The real estate tycoon is uniquely unqualified to serve as president, in experience and temperament. He is mounting a campaign of snarl and sneer, not substance. To the extent he has views, they are wrong in their diagnosis of America’s problems and dangerous in their proposed solutions. Mr. Trump’s politics of denigration and division could strain the bonds that have held a diverse nation together. *His contempt for constitutional norms might reveal the nation’s two-century-old experiment in checks and balances to be more fragile than we knew.*
> 
> *Any one of these characteristics would be disqualifying; together, they make Mr. Trump a peril.* We recognize that this is not the usual moment to make such a statement. In an ordinary election year, we would acknowledge the Republican nominee, move on to the Democratic convention and spend the following months, like other voters, evaluating the candidates’ performance in debates, on the stump and in position papers. This year we will follow the campaign as always, offering honest views on all the candidates. But we cannot salute the Republican nominee or pretend that we might endorse him this fall. A Trump presidency would be dangerous for the nation and the world.
> 
> Why are we so sure? Start with experience. It has been 64 years since a major party nominated anyone for president who did not have electoral experience. That experiment turned out pretty well ”” but Mr. Trump, to put it mildly, is no Dwight David Eisenhower. Leading the Allied campaign to liberate Europe from the Nazis required strategic and political skills of the first order, and Eisenhower ”” though he liked to emphasize his common touch as he faced the intellectual Democrat Adlai Stevenson ”” was shrewd, diligent, humble and thoughtful.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d823cc-4f4f-11e6-aa14-e0c1087f7583_story.html


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> One day after his nomination as Republican nominee The Washington Post has condemned Donald Trump as a "unique threat to American democracy".
> 
> The Editorial vivisects him.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d823cc-4f4f-11e6-aa14-e0c1087f7583_story.html




Well it just shows, how pizzed off the general public are with swallowing the garbage.

It is a protest vote, but don't think it is for your cause.lol


----------



## basilio

I have no love for Hilary Clinton. I'm  not confident she will be a great President.

*But I am certain Donald Trump will be a disaster.* Sometimes you have to hold your nose and take the least worst option. At least with a Hilary Clinton Presidency one could see public opinion having a meaningful impact on policies.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I have no love for Hilary Clinton. I'm  not confident she will be a great President.
> 
> *But I am certain Donald Trump will be a disaster.* Sometimes you have to hold your nose and take the least worst option. At least with a Hilary Clinton Presidency one could see public opinion having a meaningful impact on policies.




Na, under Clinton public opinion might only influence her rhetoric - it will not have much, if any, influence on her policies. We can see this already with the DNC's platform. Trade or fossil fuel... it's business as usual no matter what the public thinks of it.

But if the public marches down the streets, like they did during the 60s and early 70s... then in that case, any president will smarten up and get enlightened a bit quicker. 

In terms of foreign policies, she's probably worst than Trump. And that is scary. Clinton hasn't met any war she doesn't like. Libya she was on top of; she wanted to enforce no fly zone over Syria - which mean going up against Russian jets; there's the smaller less significant coup in Honduras; her and Bill's foundation nice work exploiting Haiti and the fund donated to rebuild it.

So Trump the idiot talks about bombing the families of terrorist, do more than water board... Clinton didn't flinch when she threaten to wipe clean Iran if it look at Israel funny. 


Was watching an interview with Julian Assange where he points out how the DNC's chairwoman resigned once the email leak show the DNC bias, funneling of down-ticket funds back to Clinton, other actions to destroy Sanders' campaign - when it ought to be neutral. After the resignation, Schultz was hired by the Clinton campaign. Showing, as Assange said, that if you're corrupt, break your ethical and moral obligation... as long as it benefit Clinton, Clinton will protect you.

That is encouraging corruption and dishonesty. 

So while Trump is a dangerous fascist, Clinton is only better because she can hide behind nicer words. 

Anyway, it serves a democracy well to remember that the reason democracy is a better form of gov't is because it does not rely on any single leader being kind and good.

There's always been enlightened Kings and Emperors - let's get out of the habit of waiting for an enlightened elected leader. Democracy is meant to be idiot proof - put any tyrannical, incompetent idiot in power and they'd serve us just as well because we demand it. 

Big corporations have been doing just that and it serves them pretty well. Time us plebs get on board before Muslims and terrorist forced our leader's hands to ban all protest and free speech.


----------



## CanOz

Interesting.....

Behind Democrats' email leak, U.S. experts see a Russian subplot


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> Interesting.....
> 
> Behind Democrats' email leak, U.S. experts see a Russian subplot




Isn't it funny: the liberals basically accusing Trump of being a commie...(not exactly, but the spirit is there..big bad russian red wolf), what next: they will try to create a sex scandal, forge a fraud, etc ...
And all that because the public has been informed (Thanks Wikileak) of one of the twisted schemes Hillary did to ensure nomination...
Absolutely incredible!
Bernie's  supporters must feel like voting Trump today.
What a piece of crap this woman is; I have/had a positive image of Bill,even after Monika, but she is pure evil (I am pushing a few buttons here  )


----------



## luutzu

Carlin on Politics


----------



## CanOz

qldfrog said:


> Isn't it funny: the liberals basically accusing Trump of being a commie...(not exactly, but the spirit is there..big bad russian red wolf), what next: they will try to create a sex scandal, forge a fraud, etc ...
> And all that because the public has been informed (Thanks Wikileak) of one of the twisted schemes Hillary did to ensure nomination...
> Absolutely incredible!
> Bernie's  supporters must feel like voting Trump today.
> What a piece of crap this woman is; I have/had a positive image of Bill,even after Monika, but she is pure evil (I am pushing a few buttons here  )




The obvious thing though...what a piece of  crap the US political system is, Bernie should have been able to run against Trump and Hillary on his own....it's not right and now it's more obvious than ever.


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> The obvious thing though...what a piece of  crap the US political system is, Bernie should have been able to run against Trump and Hillary on his own....it's not right and now it's more obvious than ever.



While Bernie is a socialist "a la european" {which basically collapse a country in 15y) he at least was genuine , believed in what he said and would have broken the statu quo , wo the risk Trump represents; 
So Trump it will be, thanks to the Democrat engine room and lobbies, or worst Hillary...
Poor country, and I thought we were in a bad state here


----------



## luutzu




----------



## CanOz

qldfrog said:


> While Bernie is a socialist "a la european" {which basically collapse a country in 15y) he at least was genuine , believed in what he said and would have broken the statu quo , wo the risk Trump represents;
> So Trump it will be, thanks to the Democrat engine room and lobbies, or worst Hillary...
> Poor country, and I thought we were in a bad state here




I don't believe a democratic socialist can collapse an economy.


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> I don't believe a democratic socialist can collapse an economy.



Mitterrand in France 1981 to 1995; a good time for migration, a few positive cf European integration/liberal measures, a disaster for economy. 
Like for the role of Islam, it may  seem hard to believe but facts do not lie;usually, the left does not care for facts so not a real issue.
And to be honest, most of the right does not either but the right does not pretend to have moral supremacy so I find it less cynical


----------



## CanOz

qldfrog said:


> Mitterrand in France 1981 to 1995; a good time for migration, a few positive cf European integration/liberal measures, a disaster for economy.
> Like for the role of Islam, it may  seem hard to believe but facts do not lie;usually, the left does not care for facts so not a real issue.
> And to be honest, most of the right does not either but the right does not pretend to have moral supremacy so I find it less cynical




I liked Bernie for the simple reason he seemed like he just wanted to do what 'was right'. Its a recipe for disaster though, as no politician can really ever do what is right and stay in power.


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> I liked Bernie for the simple reason he seemed like he just wanted to do what 'was right'. Its a recipe for disaster though, as no politician can really ever do what is right and stay in power.



Same here, I like him and believe he is genuine (until i am proven wrong) and yet he is a socialist, great idea/concept, does not work with people/individual twisted mind/egocentrict self interest...
But we need some dreamers at least from time to time;
Had Mitterrand only stay for 7 years, and a center right government taken over, it would have been sustainable in France...
But we will never know neither there nor with Bernie as he will not be around at the next elections...
We can not even blame the Americans for not giving him a chance as he had none from the start it seems...
So go Trump go


----------



## Tisme

I don't understand why anyone is amazed at the probability of the USA having a misogynistic, lying, imbecilic, spiteful,  bigot who uses hate as a divide and conquer card .....and they say we are twenty years behind the states, when in fact we elected the same bloke in a different skin three years ago. OZ RULES!!!!


----------



## qldfrog

Tisme said:


> I don't understand why anyone is amazed at the probability of the USA having a misogynistic, lying, imbecilic, spiteful,  bigot who uses hate as a divide and conquer card .....and they say we are twenty years behind the states, when in fact we elected the same bloke in a different skin three years ago. OZ RULES!!!!



Short memory, Reagan was elected, not really better than Trump, much lower IQ in my opinion


----------



## Logique

qldfrog said:


> Short memory, Reagan was elected, not really better than Trump, much lower IQ in my opinion



Reagan got good people around him, as Trump will do.

Hillary is Scorpio with Scorpio rising, a so called "double Scorpio". Heaven help us.  

You blokes in the White House, start updating your CV just in case. :couch


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> Reagan got good people around him, as Trump will do.
> 
> Hillary is Scorpio with Scorpio rising, a so called "double Scorpio". Heaven help us.
> 
> You blokes in the White House, start updating your CV just in case. :couch




Trump is a liar and a bit of a fool but not silly. He wants to shake things up and I think those "good " people won't be involved.
Clinton will be essentially the status quo as everything will get blocked again.

If Trump gets in he may be able to effect some change but the Republicans may do to him what they did to Obama.
He really isn't a true Republican in most ways that matter. If they do block him then there will be a large lurch to the left next election. Interesting times.


----------



## CanOz

Knobby22 said:


> Trump is a liar and a bit of a fool but not silly. He wants to shake things up and I think those "good " people won't be involved.
> Clinton will be essentially the status quo as everything will get blocked again.
> 
> If Trump gets in he may be able to effect some change but the Republicans may do to him what they did to Obama.
> He really isn't a true Republican in most ways that matter. If they do block him then there will be a large lurch to the left next election. Interesting times.




I think they're all liars....Perhaps Webster should update the definition of politician. 

I'm starting to think that Trump might actually be a better President, only because he's not Hillary.


----------



## qldfrog

CanOz said:


> I'm starting to think that Trump might actually be a better President, only because he's not Hillary.




I think so for the same reasons, isn't it terrible 
At least we are not American so whatever happens, happens: it is not our call


----------



## CanOz

qldfrog said:


> I think so for the same reasons, isn't it terrible
> At least we are not American so whatever happens, happens: it is not our call




One thing for sure, if Trump gets it, the news as a form of entertainment will take on a whole new meaning...


----------



## Knobby22

CanOz said:


> One thing for sure, if Trump gets it, the news as a form of entertainment will take on a whole new meaning...




It will be "Keeping up with the Kadashians" for the Whitehouse.


----------



## CanOz

Knobby22 said:


> It will be "Keeping up with the Kadashians" for the Whitehouse.




Can you imagine if they turned it into a reality show, Trump would love that!


----------



## basilio

I've been following the Democratic National Convention as a bit of a sticky beak.  (Also had a look at the Republican one as well. )

President Obama gave a great closing speech. Well worth watching. 

Apparently he rewrote it 6 times and was up till 3am polishing it up.  Absolutely shows.  No prompter. Seemed like no notes (amazing ??)


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I've been following the Democratic National Convention as a bit of a sticky beak.  (Also had a look at the Republican one as well. )
> 
> President Obama gave a great closing speech. Well worth watching.
> 
> Apparently he rewrote it 6 times and was up till 3am polishing it up.  Absolutely shows.  No prompter. Seemed like no notes (amazing ??)







Obama is very good at telling stories and making speeches. It's as believable as speeches from a used car salesman.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> I've been following the Democratic National Convention as a bit of a sticky beak.  (Also had a look at the Republican one as well. )
> 
> President Obama gave a great closing speech. Well worth watching.
> 
> Apparently he rewrote it 6 times and was up till 3am polishing it up.  Absolutely shows.  No prompter. Seemed like no notes (amazing ??)




yes Obama, so inspiritional(sp?)  speeches so many empty promises and hot air actions; This man has been such a let down IMHO, and I am sure many Americans feel the same


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> Obama is very good at telling stories and making speeches. It's as believable as speeches from a used car salesman.




I think he has been a pretty good President as well.... In my mind certainly better than the alternatives we were offered. 

Did you/anyone actually listen to the speech ?


----------



## basilio

qldfrog said:


> yes Obama, so inspiritional(sp?)  speeches so many empty promises and hot air actions; This man has been such a let down IMHO, and I am sure many Americans feel the same




Well let's see if President Donald Trump can take the  us and the USA forward to a grand new destiny... 
Seriously I just can't fathom the negativity to President Obama and the seeming support for Donald Trump. Does my head in ...


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I think he has been a pretty good President as well.... In my mind certainly better than the alternatives we were offered.
> 
> Did you/anyone actually listen to the speech ?




I listened to half that speech.

What he said there doesn't align with what many independent journalists have said, or any economist and data have shown.

It's just a bunch of high praises and empty words really.

I agree with you that Obama is definitely better than Romney or McCain/Palin... but meh. He's somewhat worst in that if it's Romney, democrats and liberals can at least say it's the Republican.. but under a democratic black "socialist" Constitutional law professor from a poor/working class president? The sell out is a lot worst.

It's Obama, or policies and decisions under his admin, that paves the way for Trump's rise.

Trump didn't get to where he is politically through his ability as a leader or his kind words - he got here, and he could win this thing, because Americans are so sick and tired of the policies that keep ruining them and their future. And Obama plays a big part in that.

Under FDR, with the Great Depression, with a much more unequal and less informed public than it is now... FDR managed to create great social changes that literally transformed the country for the better.

Obama was presented with similar opportunity and instead decided to sell out and run over "his base".

90% of wealth regained or generated under his admin goes to the top 1%;

Hundreds of billions, trillions, goes directly or indirectly to corporations and banks... practically nothing goes to bail out the working Americans who lost their home - the basis of most of their wealth and assets. Whatever faults the masses might have done to get themselves into bankruptcy, the banks that were bailed out set the scene and also did the crime... but one group got bailed out and the other got kicked out of their home.

His signature healthcare was practically written by the insurance companies. Its premium are getting way too high now and some states are going broke and people just can't afford it anymore. The public option was tabled but almost immediately removed so as not to offend the powers that be.

Bush Jr.'s tax cuts to the very rich was supposed to be temporary, Obama made it permanent... or made some 90% of it permanent but brags loudly about the other minute percent he let expires as Bush had it.

The deals to create jobs and help Black America... nothing there.

Gun Control? He shed tears a few times, but nothing got done as kids and Americans faces gun violence.

The militarisation of the police got ramped up under him. 

Then there's rendition, drone warfare expanding, more funding for new generation of nukes.

Anyway, it's a long list... and I don't pay that much attention. As much as half the population are struggling under Obama's failures and aren't happy with it.



We can put all those failures to him being too powerless to do anything against the Republicans and corporate power etc., but other presidents had faced similar oppositions before and they managed to show who's in charge and who's to gain something.

Really, it's a complete sell out. 

Historians will look back to his administration as that turning point where Americans just completely abandon their faith in democratic governance. Smarter and well learned people said that, I think they're right.

Reagan started the movement to screw the poor and serve the rich; Obama keep that up - and at points where the public is really suffering and might not let politics as usual happen for much longer.


----------



## basilio

I see and acknowledge many of your points luutzu.  I can see the comparison you are trying to make with FDR. On that comparison Obama has certainly not been successful.

I still struggle to see how much more he could have achieved in his 2 terms. I think we are too close to the time and situation to make judgements.   In my view the hatred and obstructionism of the Republican Party are a key reason for the failure of President Obama to make the sort of sweeping reforms you legitimately outline. 

In that context  I thought Bernie was the more powerful Democratic candidate with a stronger reform package.  But in no universe could I accept Donald Trump as anything more than a super dangerous demi-god .

On the last point I agree with you.  There is very little time left for America to even out the soaring inequalities and keep the publics faith in democratic institutions.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> There is very little time left for America...... keep the publics faith in democratic institutions.



That last point is well past and gone otherwise Trump would not be around


----------



## Logique

Obama? The man's a windbag. Can the US afford another term of hollow symbolism.

Trump, might just achieve something. But it's about more than flowery speeches.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I see and acknowledge many of your points luutzu.  I can see the comparison you are trying to make with FDR. On that comparison Obama has certainly not been successful.
> 
> I still struggle to see how much more he could have achieved in his 2 terms. I think we are too close to the time and situation to make judgements.   In my view the hatred and obstructionism of the Republican Party are a key reason for the failure of President Obama to make the sort of sweeping reforms you legitimately outline.
> 
> In that context  I thought Bernie was the more powerful Democratic candidate with a stronger reform package.  But in no universe could I accept Donald Trump as anything more than a super dangerous demi-god .
> 
> On the last point I agree with you.  There is very little time left for America to even out the soaring inequalities and keep the publics faith in democratic institutions.




Hard to believe the inequalities and poverty rate over there. Each time I hear a new figure, it really does shock me.

The latest was from Chris Hedges saying something like 50% of Americans are living in poverty. 

Before that, heard around 10 to 20 million American children goes to bed hungry; the real unemployment, or under-employment, figure is around 25% - not whatever redefinition they now got going.


You're right that the Republican did obstruct and make life difficult for Obama, more than they did at other times... An obvious one would be gun control. I think Obama was quite genuine about wanting something done about it.

But for other regressive and serving the rich policies, Obama wasn't pushing hard for the poor, and in cases seek to serve Wall St rather than main street.

Banking and financial regulation - what Bill Clinton, then W Bush did to deregulate, Obama didn't do much to reign it in - even though he inherited the crash the moment he got in, and could use public pressure to force changes. He encourage and practically insure future crashes and bailouts.

Some journalist was interviewing some Wall St honchos, asking why they're so tough on Obama when he gave them everything they wanted. Answer: so he'd give us more.

------

Trump is just a horrible prick, but I don't think he has the "quality" needed to be a dangerous demagogue - on the level of a Caesar or a Napoleon or a Hitler. 

So while Trump is rough and spew his racist and nasty stuff; he's too greedy and like the rich and comfortable life too much to upset the apple cart. So if he win, he'll just ask big corporations what they want him to do and say, write it for him and he'll just read it and act all presidential. 

Clinton will just keep doing what her husband and W and Obama has been doing - so it will still be business as usual.

Maybe it's me watching too many movies, but a seriously dangerous demagogue will be a much cleaner, all ambitious, and extremely, honestly patriotic American who want to remake America great again without trade-marking the slogan or use flag as props.


----------



## Tisme

Look out Putin:


----------



## Knobby22

Notice the absence of any policy discussion in this thread, despite the name of the thread?
It is all emotive bumpkin.


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> Notice the absence of any policy discussion in this thread, despite the name of the thread?
> It is all emotive bumpkin.




Maybe because this is the way Trump will come in power: US will not vote for Trump for policies (which policies?) but to 'get the power back from the establishment/lobbies..."
Admirable aim IMHO, not so bright for the country, but as economies need recessions to clear the plates from time to time (I may try to join the RBA to suggest them that evidence), revolutions are needed in government; Trump could be a relatively bloodless revolution and more benign than trying to keep the statu quo and have a Clinton orchestrated main war used to "reset" the clock .
Policies? who need them in that context


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Notice the absence of any policy discussion in this thread, despite the name of the thread?
> It is all emotive bumpkin.




One thing not raised is Trumps Treason urging a foreign power to act against a US citizen.


----------



## IFocus

luutzu said:


> Hard to believe the inequalities and poverty rate over there. Each time I hear a new figure, it really does shock me.
> 
> The latest was from Chris Hedges saying something like 50% of Americans are living in poverty.
> 
> Before that, heard around 10 to 20 million American children goes to bed hungry; the real unemployment, or under-employment, figure is around 25% - not whatever redefinition they now got going.
> 
> 
> You're right that the Republican did obstruct and make life difficult for Obama, more than they did at other times... An obvious one would be gun control. I think Obama was quite genuine about wanting something done about it.
> 
> But for other regressive and serving the rich policies, Obama wasn't pushing hard for the poor, and in cases seek to serve Wall St rather than main street.
> 
> Banking and financial regulation - what Bill Clinton, then W Bush did to deregulate, Obama didn't do much to reign it in - even though he inherited the crash the moment he got in, and could use public pressure to force changes. He encourage and practically insure future crashes and bailouts.
> 
> Some journalist was interviewing some Wall St honchos, asking why they're so tough on Obama when he gave them everything they wanted. Answer: so he'd give us more.
> 
> ------
> 
> Trump is just a horrible prick, but I don't think he has the "quality" needed to be a dangerous demagogue - on the level of a Caesar or a Napoleon or a Hitler.
> 
> So while Trump is rough and spew his racist and nasty stuff; he's too greedy and like the rich and comfortable life too much to upset the apple cart. So if he win, he'll just ask big corporations what they want him to do and say, write it for him and he'll just read it and act all presidential.
> 
> Clinton will just keep doing what her husband and W and Obama has been doing - so it will still be business as usual.
> 
> Maybe it's me watching too many movies, but a seriously dangerous demagogue will be a much cleaner, all ambitious, and extremely, honestly patriotic American who want to remake America great again without trade-marking the slogan or use flag as props.




A couple of points....I agree about the US inequality issues hard to see how the richest country basically has this massive poor middle class and totally disempowered work force it quite extraordinary that it exists.

Back to Obama, given the looney Republicans own  the House Obama basically has very little power other than over the arm forces Trump would face the same issues.

Trump keeps getting called an outsider which is true in a political party context but he is really an insider as far as the US "system" goes.
He is totally connected at the top end and totally disconnected at the middle/bottom end of the US socioeconomic society and thinks screwing people over for money is a winners way.

The man is an extraordinary egotist / psychopath extreme fascist very much in the mold of Mussolini / Hitler both admired by the Republicans of their day.

Forgive me if I have just repeated anything already stated


----------



## Knobby22

Trumps not a pschopath.
He is however deeply flawed.
Cartoonish, a parody.

The hope is he could effect change but I think the good people around him will stop that.
Also, if they stick another ultra conservative in the high court that will keep the country in the dark ages.


----------



## basilio

*What sort of person is Donald Trump ?*

I thought this piece analysing Donald Trumps response to Khizr Khan, the bereaved father of Army Captain Humayun Khan was thought provoking.



> *
> Donald Trump’s slander of Captain Humayun Khan’s family is horrifying, even for Trump*
> What kind of person is Donald Trump?
> 
> Updated by Ezra Klein on July 30, 2016, 2:07 p.m. ET @ezraklein
> 
> The most emotional moment of the Democratic National Convention was the speech by Khizr Khan, the bereaved father of Army Captain Humayun Khan. With his wife Ghazala by his side, Khan recalled his son’s character, his faith, his patriotism ”” and, ultimately, his courageous death in the service of the country he loved, and the fellow soldiers he was protecting.
> 
> And, yes, the Khan family is Muslim. Under Trump’s proposed policies, they would be innately suspect; had he been president when they immigrated to America, they would’ve been barred from entering, and Humayun Khan never would have served.
> 
> "Have you ever been to Arlington Cemetery?" Khan asked Trump. "Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one."




http://www.vox.com/2016/7/30/12332922/donald-trump-khan-muslim


----------



## DB008

U.S. media is brain-dead....


​


----------



## DB008

U.S. Media - Manipulation 


​


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> U.S. media is brain-dead....
> 
> 
> ​





I doubt the interviewer could go on "for hours" discussing real stuff with Cohen.

It's a strange world where Trump is actually making more sense than practically all the political leaders in the US.

Clinton is paving, further adding to, the way where her administration will see Russia and Putin as an adversary. Having two nuclear powered going at it will not end well for anyone! 

It's insane. To deflect attention from the Wikileak that the DNC is working with the media (both are supposed to be neutral) to screw over another candidate; to deflect the leak showing that most billionaires donates to both Clinton and the RNC... Clinton blame Russia and Trump. 

Yea, Russia hack your server; Trump took advantage and urge them to keep at it... Did they frame your corruption? Did Trump put national security at risk by setting up private, hardly secured email server and transmit classified info on it?

So now that Russia is "backing" Trump, is said by Clinton to be an adversary... Will Putin and Clinton shake hand and make peace? Hardly.


----------



## Knobby22

DB008 said:


> U.S. Media - Manipulation
> 
> View attachment 67603​




Really? I would call it reporting.
Trump is very thin skinned. He could have handled this a lot better. His ignorance is a little bit scary.


----------



## basilio

Observations on Donald Trumps trashing of Captain Humayun Khan’s family 



> Asked during an ABC News interview to comment on the criticisms leveled by Khan, whose wife, Ghazala, stood silent by his side during his speech, Trump insinuated that she was “not allowed” to speak because of her religion.
> 
> “She chose not to speak because she gets too upset when she sees images of her dead son’s face, you xxcking asshole,” Oliver said to the camera.
> 
> Regarding Trump’s boasts that he too has made sacrifices, by running a business, employing “tens of thousands of people” and building structures, Oliver said: “No, they are absolutely not [sacrifices].
> 
> *“They are self-serving half-truths from a self-serving half-man who has somehow convinced half the country that sacrifice is the same thing as success.”*
> *
> “Honestly,” he added, “the main takeaway from these two weeks is that, incredibly, we may be on the brink of electing such a damaged, sociopathic narcissist, that the simple presidential duty of comforting the families of fallen soldiers may actually be beyond his capabilities – and I genuinely did not think that was a part of the job that someone could be bad at.”*



https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...liver-rips-narcissist-donald-trump-khizr-khan


----------



## basilio

Did you know that Captain Humayun Khan’s family are part of the Muslim Brotherhood and that Captain Humayan himself was a closet jihidist who had wormed his way into the US military ?

If that is news to you you havn't been following the right news sources.



> Two of Trump's close advisers, Roger Stone and Al Baldasaro, have been tweeting an article from a fringe Islamaphobic website that claims Khan is a Muslim Brotherhood agent who wants to impose Islamic law in the US and that his son was a  Muslim martyr who died in a suicide bomb attack "before his Islamist mission was accomplished".




Rest of the story is good reading as well


> *Donald Trump suffers self-inflicted wounds by his attacks on the Khan family *
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...tacks-on-the-khan-family-20160801-gqit2c.html


----------



## basilio

Even Herald Sun is carrying the story on Donald Trumps attacks on  Captain Humayun Khan’s family



> *McCain takes aim at Trump for attacking Khan family*
> Charlotte Willis and wires, news.com.au
> 
> A FAMILY in the United States is at the centre of a dispute with Donald Trump that has the nation ”” and the world ”” talking.
> 
> So outrageous are Trump’s comments over the Khan family, US Senator John McCain has come out swinging against the Republican presidential candidate, blasting him for his attack on the parents of the Muslim US Army officer killed in the Iraq war.
> 
> In a scathing and lengthy statement issued Monday, the Arizona Republican waded into the dispute between his party’s controversial nominee and Khizr and Ghazala Khan, whose son, Army Captain Humayun Khan, was killed by a bomb in Iraq in 2004.
> 
> “While our Party has bestowed upon him the nomination, it is not accompanied by unfettered licence to defame those who are the best among us,” wrote McCain, who was a prisoner of war for more than five years during the Vietnam War.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/busines...y/news-story/3c2c885a49f66ee1bff21d81d6ea465c


----------



## basilio

*Where can Donald Trump take the US ?*

Was looking at the rise of the Nazi Party and  Adolf Hitler in Germany. Some interesting parallels to today.


> During 1931 and into 1932, Germany's political crisis deepened. In March 1932 Hitler ran for President against the incumbent President Paul von Hindenburg, polling 30.1% in the first round and 36.8% in the second against Hindenburg's 49 and 53%. By now the SA had 400,000 members, and its running street battles with the SPD and Communist paramilitaries (who also fought each other) reduced some German cities to combat zones. Paradoxically, although the Nazis were among the main instigators of this disorder, part of Hitler's appeal to a frightened and demoralised middle class was his promise to restore law and order. Overt antisemitism was played down in official Nazi rhetoric, but was never far from the surface.
> 
> *Germans voted for Hitler primarily because of his promises to revive the economy (by unspecified means), to restore German greatness and overturn the Treaty of Versailles, and to save Germany from communism*.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party


----------



## Logique

Basilio, I'm sensing some hostility to Donald Trump


----------



## basilio

Logique said:


> Basilio, I'm sensing some hostility to Donald Trump




Astute Logique.  Very perceptive on your part. Almost telepathetic ..

__________________________________________________________________________

Yep I think he is a really dangerous piece of work.  What concerns me far more are the numbers of people who either refuse to see what sort of person he is or accept it and still decide they would like to see him President.

After all Adolf Hitler obtained the largest number of votes in Germany in 1932.  Trouble was there were no more elections afterwards because he passed the Enabling Act.



> The votes that the Nazis received in the 1932 elections established the Nazi Party as the largest parliamentary faction of the Weimar Republic government. Adolf Hitler was appointed as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933.
> 
> The Reichstag fire on 27 February 1933 gave Hitler a pretext for suppressing his political opponents. The following day, 28 February, he persuaded Reich's President Paul von Hindenburg to issue the Reichstag Fire Decree, which suspended most civil liberties. The NSDAP won the parliamentary election on 5 March 1933 with 43.9 percent of votes, but failed to win an absolute majority. After the election, hundreds of thousands of new members joined the party for opportunistic reasons, most of them civil servants and white-collar workers. They were nicknamed the MÃ¤rzgefallenen ("March victims"). To protect the party from too many non-ideological turncoats who were viewed by the so-called "old fighters" (alte KÃ¤mpfer) with some mistrust,[72] the party issued a freeze on admissions that remained in force from May 1933 to 1937.[73]
> 
> On 23 March, the parliament passed the Enabling Act of 1933, which gave the cabinet the right to enact laws without the consent of parliament. In effect, this gave Hitler dictatorial powers




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party


----------



## Knobby22

He's not an Adolf. You are drawing a long bow 
basilio. I am sure you that.


----------



## Tisme

Simpsons

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-the-simpsons-scathe-donald-trump-in-campaign-ad-w431846?utm_content=inf_11_2720_2&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=tseaug2016&tse_id=INF_24d578f0581b11e6afb1e131ecb9c0be


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> He's not an Adolf. You are drawing a long bow
> basilio. I am sure you that.




He certainly isn't Knobby. But that doesn't make him and his potential Presidency an exceptionally problematical situation.

I did think it was interesting to note the stark similarities of their election platforms. "Make Germany/America great"  "Improve the economy" "Law and Order " Same hot buttons. I also thought that the democratic process which brought Hitler to power was worth re-visiting.

Germany was a literate and cultured country in the 1930's. Still managed to vote in the most ruthless dictator of the 20th Century.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Simpsons
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-the-simpsons-scathe-donald-trump-in-campaign-ad-w431846?utm_content=inf_11_2720_2&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=tseaug2016&tse_id=INF_24d578f0581b11e6afb1e131ecb9c0be




Skewered.....


----------



## wayneL

So what you are saying bas, is that you'd prefer a Stalinist totalitarianism under Hilarious Clinton, rather than a Trumpesque Idiocracy?

(FWIW I reckon jackboots and goosestepping is far more likely under Clinton:


----------



## wayneL

So what you are saying bas, is that you'd prefer a Stalinist totalitarianism under Hilarious Clinton, rather than a Trumpesque Idiocracy?

(FWIW I reckon jackboots and goosestepping is far more likely under Clinton:


----------



## Knobby22

Idiocracy, lol.
A new form of Government, soon to be possibly trialed. 

(forgot George W Bush, been there done that)


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Idiocracy, lol.
> A new form of Government, soon to be possibly trialed.
> 
> (forgot George W Bush, been there done that)




New?


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> He certainly isn't Knobby. But that doesn't make him and his potential Presidency an exceptionally problematical situation.
> 
> I did think it was interesting to note the stark similarities of their election platforms. "Make Germany/America great"  "Improve the economy" "Law and Order " Same hot buttons. I also thought that the democratic process which brought Hitler to power was worth re-visiting.
> 
> Germany was a literate and cultured country in the 1930's. Still managed to vote in the most ruthless dictator of the 20th Century.




When it come to world conquest and other civilising missions, it's always the advanced, literate and "cultured" countries you got to worry about. True story.

There are some exceptions, but not many. The US might not be too cultured given its MTV, Hollywood, "news" - newsertainment?, and a high percentage of people who seriously believe in the literal Bible stories.


But yea, while Trump is not at a Hitler level of psychosis, the current political climate there does seem to be setting the scene for one. Let's hope they smarten up real quick and not take us all down with them.

But judging by recent news headlines... hmmmm.... not so sure about that.

There's Libya escalation reported today; US is accused by Erdogan (or people in his gov't) of being involved in the recent coup; Turkey is moving closer towards Russia after the coup

At home, the plebs have very low favourability of their Congress, and more than half loathe the other party's two presidential candidate... and the captains of industries are milking the taxpayers like there's no tomorrow. 

A lot like Germany before total disaster.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> So what you are saying bas, is that you'd prefer a Stalinist totalitarianism under Hilarious Clinton, rather than a Trumpesque Idiocracy?
> 
> (FWIW I reckon jackboots and goosestepping is far more likely under Clinton:




Don't know much about Stalin, but that Man of Steel seem like a dude that get his things done his way - or else! 

Clinton and Trump are just corporate puppets with fancy titles and will do what they're told.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> So what you are saying bas, is that you'd prefer a Stalinist totalitarianism under Hilarious Clinton, rather than a Trumpesque Idiocracy?
> 
> (FWIW I reckon jackboots and goosestepping is far more likely under Clinton:




_Ah that is so , SO special. A Wayne LLLLLLLLLLLLL super special .  

Complete crackpot lunacy.

Total and utter disregard of reality in favour of blind prejudice and total incapacity to recognise how utterly stupid you are.
_
  __________________________________________________________
But wait. No.  That surely can't be the case can it ?  I mean no sane person on this earth who can read could look at the behaviour of Hilary Clinton and see a Stalinist totalitarian ? 

And conversely no sane person could look at Donald Trump ruthlessly trashing blacks. Muslims, Latinos, war veterans, women, The European Union,  (anyone else ?  ) and not realise this is some seriously dangerous person to have as President of the most powerful country on earth.

Yep. I have to be imagining this conversation. It is truly impossible to believe that even Wayne L could be such a complete crackpot. He has to be just winding us up in his usual inimitable fashion. 

Doesn't he ?


----------



## basilio

Actually I do understand Wayne.  The scales have fallen from my eyes after I saw the latest Trumpesque news.



> * Trump labels Clinton 'the devil' and suggests election will be rigged
> *
> Republican nominee makes claims on campaign trail while ignoring controversy over his remarks about a Muslim soldier’s parents
> 
> Donald Trump has claimed that there is a possibility of the US presidential election being “rigged” as he tried to divert attention away from a disastrous week for his campaign by also labelling his rival Hillary Clinton as “the devil” and praising the primary opponent of Republican speaker Paul Ryan.




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...he-devil-and-suggests-election-will-be-rigged

It's just so obvious isn't it.  
Hilary is* El Diabolo,* *The Anti Christ*,  *The She Devil*

And she will use her devilish powers to rig this election if the rightful winner, El Godo Trumpo, doesn't snare the right number of votes.

So of course with that astounding piece of knowledge we all have to get out our torches and pitchforks, fire up the barbie and rid the world of this haggard devil.

Do you hear me Wayne? Are we all clear ?  El Godo has spoken.  His message to all the faithful deluded is a clarion call.  

Are you all off yet ?  I expect to see the heaving masses of righteous, wall eyed, madness on the streets in a matter of days.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> New?




Point taken.


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> Actually I do understand Wayne.  The scales have fallen from my eyes after I saw the latest Trumpesque news.




i wouldn't worry too much Bas.
Trump is in trouble now. I don't think he is going to make it. One faux pas too many and this one betrayed his selfish nature a bit too obviously.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> i wouldn't worry too much Bas.
> Trump is in trouble now. I don't think he is going to make it. One faux pas too many and this one betrayed his selfish nature a bit too obviously.




Things look pretty bad when it's still a toss up between Clinton or Trump.

I mean Trump is a loud mouthed, psychotic lying, racist, self-promoting, misogynist idiot with people within the RNC not liking him, with billionaire donors favouring Clinton.... and with all the advantages about first women, experience, apparently saner and less psychotic... Clinton is only a few points ahead.

What a disaster. 

Maybe people are starting to wonder how busy and on the job could a Secretary of State be if she has the time to write/read 30,000 personal emails - I can't imagine those emails were from Bill to pick up milk and egg on the way home.

But it's still early days and WikiLeak said they got more coming.


----------



## Knobby22

Yes, Luutza.
When you put it that way it is pretty bad.
I think the people want change and Clinton is not seen as providing it. The hate created against her over many years of commentry is also a factor.

In the end though, Trump will surely lose. The man is just terrible.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Actually I do understand Wayne.  The scales have fallen from my eyes after I saw the latest Trumpesque news.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...he-devil-and-suggests-election-will-be-rigged
> 
> It's just so obvious isn't it.
> Hilary is* El Diabolo,* *The Anti Christ*,  *The She Devil*
> 
> And she will use her devilish powers to rig this election if the rightful winner, El Godo Trumpo, doesn't snare the right number of votes.
> 
> So of course with that astounding piece of knowledge we all have to get out our torches and pitchforks, fire up the barbie and rid the world of this haggard devil.
> 
> Do you hear me Wayne? Are we all clear ?  El Godo has spoken.  His message to all the faithful deluded is a clarion call.
> 
> Are you all off yet ?  I expect to see the heaving masses of righteous, wall eyed, madness on the streets in a matter of days.




Getting a tad emotional there, Dear. 

But yes there is an obstacle in the way of the Democrat's(sic) ultimate ideology, The Second Amendment.

But seriously, there are parallels between your puerile rant here and your Apocalypse fantasy in the other thread. I see a pattern that probably requires the professional services of a competent psychiatrist.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, Luutza.
> When you put it that way it is pretty bad.
> I think the people want change and Clinton is not seen as providing it. The hate created against her over many years of commentry is also a factor.
> 
> In the end though, Trump will surely lose. The man is just terrible.




Unless there's some hard-to-dance-around evidence of Clinton's corruption, looks like she's going to win because people in general do not like foul-mouthed _and _truly terrible people like Trump. They can put up with somewhat terrible people who know how speak in liberal and pc speaks.

If judged by the standard of normal human practise and morality, Clinton is quite terrible. But judged by the psychotic norms elite politicians and Masters of Man, Ruler of the World kind of standard - she's quite typical.


----------



## Knobby22

They have rolled out Clint  Eastwood to try to help Trump and though he is a dyed in the wool Republican and won't vote for Clinton he still stopped short of endorsing Trump.

It's amazing really. One of the most unpopular candidates of all time, Clinton, may have the biggest win ever.

And the completely biased FOX news are having trouble lying (they would say spinning) with a straight face. Showing their own poll that states Trump is down 10 points they say he is leading. (well, they meant the economic argument).
Read and weep/ laugh cynically.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/with-clinton-destroying-trump-in-polls-fox-finds-a-silver-lining/


----------



## Smurf1976

luutzu said:


> Unless there's some hard-to-dance-around evidence of Clinton's corruption, looks like she's going to win because people in general do not like foul-mouthed _and _truly terrible people like Trump.




A possibly corrupt(?) Democrat versus a Republican who wants to start dropping nukes.

If I were in the US and voting in their election then I'd take a chance on Clinton any day over Trump, no question there. However bad Clinton might be, Trump's starting to look a whole lot worse.


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> A possibly corrupt(?) Democrat versus a Republican who wants to start dropping nukes.
> 
> If I were in the US and voting in their election then I'd take a chance on Clinton any day over Trump, no question there. However bad Clinton might be, Trump's starting to look a whole lot worse.




I wouldn't vote for either. If that mean Trump win, then let that dice roll. 

I wouldnt put it pass Trump to be asking why he/they couldn't use nuke, but it's from Joe Scarborough and fro WikiLeak we know how the DNC was sick of him dissing Clinton too much so they call Joe's boss and the dude was forced to to a 180. Maybe this is their way of keeping his job and DNC's advertising dollars.

Trump is a nasty human being, for sure. He said a lot of untrue and unpleasant stuff. But would he be any worst than Clinton... I don't think he would be. And that's a really sad statement on the current state of politics.

Any nasty stuff Trump have said, I could name the same nasty stuff Clinton has done or will also do.

So take this Trump wanting to nuke the ME. The Obama administration has signed a 10year, $1 Trillion budget to develop the next generation of nuclear weapons.

The existing nukes are too big, destroy too big of a place. So they're looking into unleashing atomic weapons on a smaller scale - maybe takes out a quarter of a city instead of an entire city.

US Generals are said to be seriously worry about this as it mean a higher chance of nuke being use: You have it, you spent $1T on it, let's try it out on live theatre.

That and Clinton talks about wiping Iran off the map... so you know. Who in their right mind talk about nuke or wiping some 80 million people off the map man.


----------



## basilio

> That and Clinton talks about wiping Iran off the map... so you know. Who in their right mind talk about nuke or wiping some 80 million people off the map man




For real ?   Where has Hilary Clinton talked about wiping Iran off the map ? Was there a context ie a serious attack on Israel ?

Like to see the reference for a claim like that.

Also I can't see a fair parallel between Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump. I don't have a big torch for Hilary but in no  current universe would I think Donald Trump was somehow an acceptable alternative as Prez.


----------



## Knobby22

You are confused luutza.
The dems did.the peace deal with Iran and are dropping sanctions. They are allies with the US against Isis. The Republicans tried to block it and want to end it. Better check your info.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> For real ?   Where has Hilary Clinton talked about wiping Iran off the map ? Was there a context ie a serious attack on Israel ?
> 
> Like to see the reference for a claim like that.
> 
> Also I can't see a fair parallel between Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump. I don't have a big torch for Hilary but in no  current universe would I think Donald Trump was somehow an acceptable alternative as Prez.





Some context and the Iranian response.



As president, if Iran nuke Israel, she will "completely obliterate" Iran.

A different video of an extended clip show her saying how terrible it is to say that, but sure, she'll obliterate Iran.

So she would hate to do it, but she's do it because?... because she love Israel that much?

How is that different from Trump allegedly asking why he can't nuke places and people? I'm sure Trump also hate to have to drone terrorists and their families too, just you know... he love freedom too  much to not to.

We can get into why Iran would want a nuke - what with being in a tough neighbourhood, being labelled a part of the Axis of evil; having two neighbours being invaded and that same invader had invade before, are constantly talking of bombing your country, and you're on its hit list. Who wouldn't want a nuke in that situation?

Or we can get into the fact that Iran and the entire ME wanted the ME to be nuclear free zone... two countries didn't want it, rejects that UN proposal.


Or Clinton's other classics: We came, we saw, he died... ha ha... he and hundreds of thousands of other people too.




Or Bringing them to heel.
Superpredators, gangs like the mob... to introduce the three strike rules, imprisons some 2 million Black and Latinos... all around the same time her husband got donation from private prison operator and he privatise them further.





So yea, I don't like Trump... but is Clinton really any better?


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> You are confused luutza.
> The dems did.the peace deal with Iran and are dropping sanctions. They are allies with the US against Isis. The Republicans tried to block it and want to end it. Better check your info.




Any president, Republican or Democratic, would have to deal with Iran and lift those sanctions. Well, true, maybe the Republicans wouldn't lift the sanctions... but they'll have to find other ways to deal with Iran.

Not because they like peace with Iran, but because if the US don't, Russia and China will do deals and pipe them Iranian oil and gas to China.

Russia would work with Iran and get the supply down so the prices would go up... The US opening up and lifting sanction would let them in and have access and dealings. It's not for any noble peace stuff.


----------



## basilio

Ok I can see the context of Hilary Clinton threatening to obliterate Iran.  A attack on Israel and USA retaliation.

Don't like it and certainly she was/is more of a hawk than President Obama (or perhaps he is more circumspect about his killings ?)

Hilary was Secretary of State for 4 years in the first Obama administration.  In my view on balance she did a very good job.  I would hope she is not as aggressive now as she appeared then.

But in the end  IMO it doesn't matter in the context of this election.  Donald Trump is just so dangerous and unstable he can't be allowed to be President.

If you want to see a more extreme but nonetheless relevant comparison  consider what is happening in the Philippines with President Duterte. 


> *Rodrigo Duterte: 'I don't care about human rights'*
> President publicly accuses Filipino government officials including judges and members of Congress of having drug links.
> 
> 
> About 800 people have been killed since Duterte won in May, according to reports [EPA]About 800 people have been killed since Duterte won in May, according to reports [EPA]
> Fast Facts
> 
> At least 800 people with suspected drug links killed since Duterte won in May
> 158 government officials including members of Congress accused of drug links
> Catholic church leader condemns human rights abuses
> Police says 500,000 people have surrendered since anti-drug campaign started
> 
> Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte has named several government officials, including judges, members of Congress and military officers accused of having links to the illegal drug trade, just hours after vowing to maintain his "shoot-to-kill" order against drug dealers.
> 
> .....The president said he was also offering soldiers and police his "official and personal guarantee" of immunity from prosecution for killings undertaken in the performance of their duties.
> Death toll rises as Philippines intensifies war on drugs
> 
> In a homily delivered later on Sunday, Catholic leader Archbishop Socrates Villegas condemned the latest killings, saying, "I am in utter disbelief. If this is just a nightmare, wake me up and assure me it is not true. This is too much to swallow.
> 
> "From a generation of drug addicts, shall we become a generation of street murderers?" Villegas, president of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines (CBCP), said in a statement posted on his website.
> 
> The UN anti-drugs office on Wednesday joined international rights organisations in condemning the rash of killings.
> 
> "The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime remains greatly concerned by the reports of extrajudicial killing of suspected drug dealers and users in the Philippines," its executive director Yury Fedotov said in a statement.




http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/rodrigo-duterte-human-rights-160806211448623.html
But Duterte said he is waging a war, and is "now invoking the articles of war".


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Ok I can see the context of Hilary Clinton threatening to obliterate Iran.  A attack on Israel and USA retaliation.
> 
> Don't like it and certainly she was/is more of a hawk than President Obama (or perhaps he is more circumspect about his killings ?)
> 
> Hilary was Secretary of State for 4 years in the first Obama administration.  In my view on balance she did a very good job.  I would hope she is not as aggressive now as she appeared then.
> 
> But in the end  IMO it doesn't matter in the context of this election.  Donald Trump is just so dangerous and unstable he can't be allowed to be President.
> 
> If you want to see a more extreme but nonetheless relevant comparison  consider what is happening in the Philippines with President Duterte.
> 
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/rodrigo-duterte-human-rights-160806211448623.html
> But Duterte said he is waging a war, and is "now invoking the articles of war".




That crazy Filipino president, oh man. Yea, maybe you're right that Trump would be more dangerous.

But my (misplaced?) optimism for American democracy tells me that a Trump presidency is so nakedly awful it wake the heck out of the American public to demand serious changes to the way things are, pronto. 

With Clinton, because she is so clever at hiding behind liberal talks... the inequality and corruption that's going on will just keep going, until the anger erupts. That'd be worst I reckon.

----

Haven't followed Clinton's years as SOS... but the headlines don't suggest too much to be proud of.

There's the Libyan liberation she championed... now with three main factions claiming to be its new legitimate gov't. Then there's ISIS and other warlords. Gadhafi's weapon stash were looted and spreads all over North Africa. That can't be good. 

She also proposed No Fly zones over Syria... bringing NATO and the US into conflict with Russia.

She also has a very heavy hand in Honduras too. There was a coup and the usual refugee crisis there that we haven't heard much about.

But yea, maybe any SOS in her position would do the same. It's not like she call all the shots.

Though I think her decades in and around power showed there's no use to be "idealistic" and either serve the real power that be, or pack up and go home. I mean, Obama was too new to the establishment and may have a few shock and awe, a few tear and hesitations in "the need" to do all that he did and didn't do. 

Clinton would just shrugged off those doubts in a blink and do it. And that's no good.


There has always been money in politics. The term "Lobbyist" was given to those who waits in the hotel lobby for  US president U.S. Grant. There's been money Teddy Roosevelt took to get elected... but some leader managed to take the money and tell the donors to go screw themselves. Clinton, with her family $2billion Foundation, doesn't appear the type to say no to corrupt supporters.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> Ok I can see the context of Hilary Clinton threatening to obliterate Iran.  A attack on Israel and USA retaliation.
> 
> Don't like it and certainly she was/is more of a hawk than President Obama (or perhaps he is more circumspect about his killings ?)
> 
> Hilary was Secretary of State for 4 years in the first Obama administration.  In my view on balance she did a very good job.  I would hope she is not as aggressive now as she appeared then.
> 
> But in the end  IMO it doesn't matter in the context of this election.  Donald Trump is just so dangerous and unstable he can't be allowed to be President.
> 
> If you want to see a more extreme but nonetheless relevant comparison  consider what is happening in the Philippines with President Duterte.
> 
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/rodrigo-duterte-human-rights-160806211448623.html
> But Duterte said he is waging a war, and is "now invoking the articles of war".



how many people have NOT been murdered raped have their lives destroyed as a result of this war?
Stupid but i believe relevant question.
Funny how real democracy can be so annoying, be it when it elect islamists or right wing parties, or even Pauline here


----------



## basilio

*Anyone interested in learning from history ?*

Came across this comparison between Donald Trump and young  Athenian statesman named Alcibiades. Talk about history repeating itself. Just fascinating...



> *The one Trump comparison you haven’t heard yet*
> May 3, 2016 11.01am AEST
> Author
> 
> Robert Garland
> 
> Roy D. and Margaret B. Wooster Professor of the Classics, Colgate University
> 
> 
> The race for the Republican presidential nomination has provided pundits with ample opportunity to claim that we have reached an all-time low in terms of fractiousness, divisiveness and vulgarity.
> 
> Not so. A quick look to the Classical world lays to rest such a naive assumption.
> 
> Politics under any system of government is always a dirty business. But the Athenian political system is tied particularly closely to our own because it was – I’m tempted to say first and foremost – a spectator sport. Much of the time, meetings of the Athenian Assembly resembled an explosive televised debate, as politicians vied with each other in what was often the equivalent of a popularity contest.
> 
> We’re lucky to know so much about the workings of Athenian democracy in large part due to the writings of Athenian historian Thucydides. In the course of narrating the history of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides incorporated many pairs of speeches arguing opposing points of view that reveal how politicians sought to put down, outmaneuver and even humiliate their rivals.
> 
> Any student of Greek history, like me, cannot but admire the historian’s unparalleled understanding of the invisible web that every ambitious, skillful and ruthless politician must weave around his audience. Since there was no party system and no elected politicians either, every day in Athens was like being on the campaign trail. As a result, Athens provides a striking parallel to this year’s seemingly endless presidential primary season.
> 
> Just as the campaign trail ideally suits Trump, it was a world ideally suited to a young statesman named Alcibiades. Alcibiades was an Athenian billionaire with a larger-than-life personality to go with it. One of his biographers wrote:
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> Such was his charisma that even those who feared him or were jealous of him fell victim to his charms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Like Trump, Alcibiades knew that the more he courted controversy, the more he would grab the limelight – and the more people would listen to him when he spoke up in the Athenian Assembly, where the important issues of the day were decided by majority vote.




https://theconversation.com/the-one-trump-comparison-you-havent-heard-yet-58571


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> ... he can't be allowed to be President.
> .




Interesting....

Democracy! So long as basilio of the Apocalypse agrees.

Pfffft tosser.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Interesting....
> 
> Democracy! So long as basilio of the Apocalypse agrees.
> 
> Pfffft tosser.




That's way out of context there Sifu.


Oh yea, after a week of insulting the parents of a dead American soldier and shooing a baby out, Trump still managed to narrow Clinton's lead to only 3 percent (Reuters/Ipsos poll). 

Man, people really don't like Clinton.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Interesting....
> 
> Democracy! So long as basilio of the Apocalypse agrees.
> 
> Pfffft tosser.




Yeah Wayne.

Bit like not letting sociopathic, egotists  play with loaded guns or nuclear buttons. Clearly something you think is a perfect democratic right.

Go for it.


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> That's way out of context there Sifu.
> 
> 
> Oh yea, after a week of insulting the parents of a dead American soldier and shooing a baby out, Trump still managed to narrow Clinton's lead to only 3 percent (Reuters/Ipsos poll).
> 
> Man, people really don't like Clinton.




Interesting isn't it ? No one pretends this American election has great candidates. But only a few choice people somehow think that there is some equality of badness in the two candidates and that expressing a very strong view that the most dangerous candidate just shouldn't be elected is anti democratic.

I  wonder what we make of  the Republicians who have publicly dissed Trump as just too dangerous to have as Prez


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Yeah Wayne.
> 
> Bit like not letting sociopathic, egotists  play with loaded guns or nuclear buttons. Clearly something you think is a perfect democratic right.
> 
> Go for it.




Not the point bas. If Americans want to vote in Hannibal Lecter, or even worse, Hillary, that is how their democracy works. 

For some pissant  plebeian  with totalitarian fantasies, like you, to claim he should not be allowed, reveals the sort of toxic character you and your ilk actually posses.

We knowcyour type from not so long ago.... Freakin brownshirts.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> That's way out of context there Sifu.
> 
> 
> Man, people really don't like Clinton.




No it's not.

And no they don't.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Not the point bas. If Americans want to vote in Hannibal Lecter, or even worse, Hillary, that is how their democracy works.
> 
> For some pissant  plebeian  with totalitarian fantasies, like you, to claim he should not be allowed, reveals the sort of toxic character you and your ilk actually posses.
> 
> We knowcyour type from not so long ago.... Freakin brownshirts.




And speaking of brown shirts your brothers in arms have enthusiastically upheld the right of all God fearing Americkans  to get their man into office.




> Top Nazi leader: Trump will be a ‘real opportunity’ for white nationalists






> By Peter Holley August 7 at 11:31 AM
> (Evan Vucci/AP)
> 
> The effort to plant the seeds of white nationalism in the political mainstream, where they might blossom into pro-white political coalitions that appeal to a broader swath of Caucasian voters, will not be easy, according to the chairman of the American Nazi Party.
> 
> But Rocky Suhayda thinks there is one political figure who presents a “real opportunity” to lessen the load.
> 
> Who is it? Donald Trump, the Republican nominee for president.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...or-white-nationalists/?utm_term=.2deabe381849


----------



## Knobby22

One problem the Republicans have got is that they hardly have any women in the party and they have less than they used to. As a white male club they have trouble talking about woman's issues as its usually a guy telling a girl that they can't do this or that. All quite amusing really, they seem so backward.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ican-women-politics-disparity-feminism-214140

Since 2006 the number of elected Republican women has dropped from 11% to 9%! No wonder women aren't voting for them.

Forget the abortion issue, being all men shows in other ways:

"The Taliban has taken over Tennessee. From ThinkProgress: “Senate passed SB 3310 (HB 3621), a bill to update the state’s abstinence-based sex education curriculum to define holding hands and kissing as ‘gateway sexual activities.’ Just one senator voted against the legislation; 28 voted in favor.” This is Tennessee’s answer to increased Teenage pregnancy: not promotion of contraception; just don’t hold hands. Welcome to Afghanistan, Tennessee. The law takes effect July 1, 2012, otherwise and henceforth and forever known as Talibanesseee Day." http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2

Bet the Libertarians hate this as an attack on Freedom. By the way , which state has the highest infection rate of ghonoerea and other STDs? Also condoms are locked up and you have to ask for them in pharmacies.

So Donald Trump with his bimbo wife who has not got a degree -it's another lie, and got her Green card marrying another American, won't see that on Fox, is a classic example.

Hilary is going to win despite all her faults because of stuff like this.


----------



## wayneL

Noooio Hillary cant be allowed to be Prez


----------



## basilio

Congratulations Wayne !! 

I just noticed that you scored the position of speech advisor to Donald Trump.. 



> * Donald Trump: I was being sarcastic about Obama and Isis*
> 
> Republican candidate walks back his false claim that US president founded Islamic State
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @realDonaldTrump
> 
> Ratings challenged @CNN reports so seriously that I call President Obama (and Clinton) "the founder" of ISIS, & MVP. THEY DON'T GET SARCASM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....On Thursday, Trump had refused to take the opportunity to reframe his remark to mean that Obama had created the context for the Islamic State’s growth. Conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt told him: “I know what you meant – you meant that he created the vacuum, he lost the peace.”
> 
> But Trump disagreed. *“No, I meant that he’s the founder of Isis, I do,” he said. “He was the most valuable player *– I gave him the most valuable player award. I give her too, by the way,” he added of his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Trump did acknowledge that the root of his argument was that if Obama “had done things properly, you wouldn’t have had Isis”, but he repeated: “*Therefore, he was the founder of Isis.”*
> 
> Trump first claimed Obama was “the founder of Isis” on Wednesday night at a rally in Sunrise, Florida.
> 
> “Isis is honoring President Obama,” Trump said of Islamic State. “He is the founder of Isis. He founded Isis. And, I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hillary Clinton.”
Click to expand...



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/12/donald-trump-obama-isis-founder-sarcasm

That back flip with an inverse pike has your linguistic gymnastic fingerprints all over it..!!  I trust he is paying you well.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Congratulations Wayne !!
> 
> I just noticed that you scored the position of speech advisor to Donald Trump..
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/12/donald-trump-obama-isis-founder-sarcasm
> 
> That back flip with an inverse pike has your linguistic gymnastic fingerprints all over it..!!  I trust he is paying you well.




Sheesh.... And the bastid didn't even pay me yet. Must send a late notice.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Sheesh.... And the bastid didn't even pay me yet. Must send a late notice.


----------



## DB008

More propaganda....


​


----------



## bellenuit

DB008 said:


> More propaganda....
> 
> View attachment 67737​




Aren't FOX pro Trump?


----------



## Knobby22

Yes. The propaganda is what DB008 published.


----------



## Knobby22

Trump won't supply his tax returns. First nominee to not do so.
Now he won't supply his medical records. Dr Ben Carson said that as an ederly man he should give the American people at least a summary of his recent health.
If elected he will be the oldest President ever.


----------



## Logique

Hillary Clinton is just 2 years younger than Trump, and is followed around by a "handler"/medico carrying a diazepam pen. 



> Is Something Wrong With Hillary: Bizarre Behavior, Seizure Allegations Raise Doubts About Her Health
> 
> by Tyler Durden, Aug 9, 2016 , Tyler Durden's picture
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...r-seizure-allegations-raise-doubts-about-her-
> 
> ..Further adding to the mystery, Cernovich also points out - in an unconfirmed report - that the so called "handler" appears to carry a Diazepam pen...The device in question is a Diazepam auto-injector pens are used for for Acute Repetitive Seizures. Diazepam is one of the medications prescribed for patients who experience recurrent seizures..


----------



## Knobby22

Rumours, innuendo. What about the cushions?  She has provided a medical report, why won't Trump?

They are both elderly. The public deserve to know. You can't say that a Republican stalwart like Ben Carson should be ignored.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Rumours, innuendo. What about the cushions?  She has provided a medical report, why won't Trump?
> 
> They are both elderly. The public deserve to know. You can't say that a Republican stalwart like Ben Carson should be ignored.




Ben Carson should also have his head examined from the stuff he says on campaign trail.

Clinton having seizure fits are no biggie... Caesar and Alexander also have epilepsy and they did wonders for their empire


----------



## superbatman

basilio said:


> People, the media, other politicians keep talking of Donald Trump as a trainwreck.  An ever cascading litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches.
> 
> But perhaps its really a train ride with The Trump firmly sitting  up front as the Republican preferred candidate despite* or because of the  "litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches."*
> 
> So where could this train ride take the US and us (the rest of the world) ?
> 
> Some background to his body of work and the current response from other politicians
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-anti-muslim-ban-world-reacts
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...p-muslim-ban-backlash-jeb-bush-chris-christie
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/republicans-donald-trump-muslims-election-2016
> 
> There is also one excellent psychological observation of how well Donald Trump works his audience.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-rally-psychology-humor-fear




 I think we should  call him as Donald Dumb


----------



## basilio

Can Drumph rise to greater levels of depravity ? ( Well mixed metaphor there ..)

Set up your own Trump charity foundation *and then use it's funds to pay your companies liabilities and legal bills?* 

Totally xxxxing shameless..



> *
> Trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems*
> By David A. Fahrenthold September 20 at 11:23 PM
> How Trump used his charity to settle his business's lawsuits
> 
> The Washington Post's David Fahrenthold explains the latest revelations about how Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump may have violated the IRS's rules regarding charitable funds. (Sarah Parnass/The Washington Post)
> 
> *Donald Trump spent more than a quarter-million dollars from his charitable foundation to settle lawsuits that involved the billionaire’s for-profit businesses, according to interviews and a review of legal documents.
> 
> Those cases, which together used $258,000 from Trump’s charity, were among four newly documented expenditures in which Trump may have violated laws against “self-dealing” — which prohibit nonprofit leaders from using charity money to benefit themselves or their businesses.*
> 
> In one case, from 2007, Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Club faced $120,000 in unpaid fines from the town of Palm Beach, Fla., resulting from a dispute over the height of a flagpole.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c88f9c-7d11-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html


----------



## basilio

Just to remind us all of how brazenly Drumpf rewrites history as a world class liar check out his performance last week.

Priceless stuff folks.



> *Stephen Colbert calls Donald Trump a liar ”” over and over and over again*
> By Aaron Blake September 20 at 10:50 AM
> 
> Stephen Colbert may have offered the definitive takedown Monday night of Donald Trump's effort to rewrite history on the whole birther saga.
> 
> In a more than 10-minute segment, Colbert repeatedly called Trump a liar without directly saying so, using clips of Trump himself saying "liar" and "world-class liar" and talking in exasperated tones about Trump's bogus birtherism claims in a Friday news conference.
> 
> *Trump said Friday in a five-sentence statement that he ended the birther controversy in 2011 by getting President Obama to release his birth certificate and that Hillary Clinton and her campaign actually first raised the questions about whether Obama was born in the United States. Neither is correct.*
> 
> After playing video of Trump saying he "finished" the birther controversy, Colbert went off.
> 
> “No, you didn’t. No, you didn’t," Colbert said. "And I know you didn't because I was alive and on TV."
> 
> He added: "But you know what? Maybe memory is a tricky thing. Maybe I remember it one way ... and Donald Trump is a liar.”
> 
> Colbert then played a montage of Trump raising questions about Obama's birth certificate ”” even after 2011. While it's airing, he carves a wooden statuette of Rodin's "The Thinker." Afterward, he talked to the statue.
> 
> “What are you thinking about?" Colbert asked. "I’m thinking he’s a liar," Colbert-as-the-statuette responded.
> 
> Colbert concluded: "You don’t get to flog this issue for five years and then act like you’re correcting everybody else. We’re not crazy. We were there. We all saw you do it. Even the people who support you saw you do it. It’s why they support you.”


----------



## basilio

Another reminder  of how crazy, venal and downright dangerous Drumph will be for US. 

His policy to to just take Iraq oil as "spoils of war " and "repaying ourselves" is still on the table. How dangerous is this proposal?

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/09/16/trumps-take-the-oil-madness/




> *Trump's plan to seize Iraq's oil: 'It's not stealing, we're reimbursing ourselves'*
> 
> Strategy of taking oil in Iraq and from areas controlled by Isis presents huge issues from almost every angle and ‘would amount to a war crime’, experts say
> Donald Trump: ‘You heard me, I would take the oil. I would not leave Iraq and let Iran take the oil.’
> 
> Julian Borger World affairs editor
> 
> Wednesday 21 September 2016 20.00 AEST
> Last modified on Thursday 22 September 2016 00.51 AEST
> Comments
> 1,234
> Save for later
> 
> One of the recurring themes of Donald Trump’s national security strategy is his plan to “take the oil” in Iraq and from areas controlled by Islamic State (Isis) extremists. It would drain Isis’s coffers and reimburse the US for the costs of its military commitments in the Middle East, the candidate insists.
> 
> At a forum hosted by NBC on 7 September, Trump suggested oil seizure would have been a way to pay for the Iraq war, saying: “We go in, we spend $3tn, we lose thousands and thousands of lives, and then … what happens is we get nothing. You know, it used to be to the victor belong the spoils.”
> 
> He added: “One of the benefits we would have had if we took the oil is Isis would not have been able to take oil and use that oil to fuel themselves.”




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/donald-trump-iraq-war-oil-strategy-seizure-isis


----------



## basilio

*What happened to other politicians who stole from charity foundations  they were running ?*

Well worth seeing what happens to other Democrat and Republican politicians who dipped into charity funds.


> *Trump Faces Allegations Over Charity That Forced Other Politicians To Resign*
> If Trump were a normal candidate, he'd be facing harsh penalties.
> 
> ......Normal candidates have resigned from office and pleaded guilty to charges stemming from similar games with charities that Trump has played. Some have gone to prison. If recent campaign history holds, Trump will move on from this to his next momentary scandal.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/20...orced-other-politicia/?utm_hp_ref=au-homepage


----------



## Knobby22

I have been reading about that charity. Unbelievable and dishonest behavior. But nothing seems to stick.
He rigged a golf tournament so he wouldn't have to pay out and when he was caught and taken to  court,  played out from his charity which he has not donated personally to since 1989!

Even when he tells the truth he lies.
Like when he said Obama was born in the USA and it was Hilary that created the lie and he was the one that found out the truth.

No one can say what his policies are, yet I think we may be looking at the next US President.


----------



## explod

basilio said:


> Another reminder  of how crazy, venal and downright dangerous Drumph will be for US.
> 
> His policy to to just take Iraq oil as "spoils of war " and "repaying ourselves" is still on the table. How dangerous is this proposal?
> 
> https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/09/16/trumps-take-the-oil-madness/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/donald-trump-iraq-war-oil-strategy-seizure-isis




Trump is just a product of the capitalist American pathway.  Reap as you sow.

The idea was established when the US entered Iraq in the first place.

Looks like that road train destroyed in Syria was from a US drone. 
Todays Zero Hedge with a pretty good account in my view.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Just to remind us all of how brazenly Drumpf rewrites history as a world class liar check out his performance last week.
> 
> ...







Trump is one of those psychotic liars that would say whatever would sell, would get him out of being caught in a lie. Facts and history and what he have said... none of that matter. Just incredible. He'd make a good politician for sure though.

Saw a video of Clinton caught on tape having a sort of epileptic fit - one of those Steddy Eddy moment she blames on her ice Chai Tea. With the recent crossed-eyes and 911 collapse, her admitted concussion and blood clot two years ago... her health is not just conspiracy theory. I mean it's fine if she's disabled or have an illness that affect other organs than the brain and nervous system - Parkinson's or Alzheimer is something else for a president.

But health issue aside, she's not winning any votes by shouting at people... blaming them for not working hard enough to help tell the truth about Trump.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

So far Trump is thrashing Clinton in the debate... even with his hyperbole and half-completed sentences.

Hilary just got a solid punch in - Trump's financial/tax status.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Gringotts Bank said:


> Hilary just got a solid punch in - Trump's financial/tax status.



Yes a good gob smack. He is a liar and a thief. Add to that a compulsive exaggerator with a long list of generalisations.


----------



## McLovin

That was the most nonsensical "debate" I've ever seen. Hilary didn't even need to turn up, Trump did a number on himself.


----------



## CanOz

and this is what we have to look for in global leadership....

Trump is a loud mouthed idiot that will bring back the typical American stereotype...


----------



## luutzu

If Trump was less about himself, he would have won that debate. There were so many openings Clinton left open and were just asking to be pummelled. But Trump kept on and on about himself and how he's awesome or someone think he's this and that.

e.g. She accused him of being for the Iraq war. Just say yea, I believed our politicians and thought Iraq was a threat. Turn out it wasn't. But you, Clinton, voted for it.

Or her emails and his tax returns. 33,000 "private" emails she deleted. At least the gov't know what's in Trump's tax returns, only the Russian or the Chinese and god knows who know what's in those emails. So for her to talk about cyber security and Russian hacking, or about Trump having something to hide... that's a bit rich.

Or locking up way too many coloured kids for non-violent crimes. She say "we've" done too much harm by doing that, that's not helping "heal" the nation blah blah... yea well, you and your husband signed that three-strike rule that lock them up and privatise prisons for profits corporations.

Or her bs about how trickle down economics doesn't work. Yea, since the past 30 years... her husband and herself as senator have not being responsible for that kind of deregulation, free market, trade deal trickle down that now suddenly doesn't work and is a terrible idea that Trump is trying to follow.

Not that I want Trump to win, just it's incredible the bs I hear from both of them.

Though he did put in a few zingers... bad experience, 30 years of trying to fix the thing and it hasn't gotten anywhere.

Clinton just can't help herself being smug though. That's not going to change people's mind about her.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

McLovin said:


> That was the most nonsensical "debate" I've ever seen. Hilary didn't even need to turn up, Trump did a number on himself.




I thought he made some good points:

- bring manufacturing back to the States with supportive policies/tax breaks
- higher taxes on imported goods
- any country who wants US military protection should be required to pay for it

Not so keen on:

- lower taxes for the rich
- promotion of trickle down economic policies

What did you like/not like from each of them?


----------



## Wysiwyg

luutzu said:


> Clinton just can't help herself being smug though.



Yeah saw her smart azz grin whenever Frump exposed his own low intelligence. Shows how popularity is more important than wisdom and intelligence. That could be to attract the majority of dumbos that don't know the difference.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Wysiwyg said:


> Yeah saw her smart azz grin whenever Frump exposed his own low intelligence. Shows how popularity is more important than wisdom and intelligence. That could be to attract the majority of dumbos that don't know the difference.




I was actually thinking she had a very pleasant and open smile.  

The juxtaposition between candidates is huge though, isn't it?  If only Hillary had Trump's ability to _make stuff happen_ and _get stuff done._  Not saying I'd ever vote for him, but that aspect of his personality is very persuasive.

I used to value intelligence highly, but not so much nowadays (I've read too many papers by 'experts' and professors which are total crud).  I rank wisdom, creativity and ability far head of intelligence.  Trump appears to have ability, also appears to lack wisdom and creativity.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> I thought he made some good points:
> 
> - bring manufacturing back to the States with supportive policies/tax breaks
> - higher taxes on imported goods




American productivity and automation has killed off multiples more American manufacturing jobs than China or Mexico ever did. Short of going back to the hammer and anvil it's pie in the sky stuff to think America could ever employ the same number of people in manufacturing that it did 40 or so years ago. 

He never mentions the corollary of higher taxes on imported goods, and I think more than a few of his supporters can't join the dots...



Gringotts Bank said:


> - any country who wants US military protection should be required to pay for it




America gets a huge benefit from being the global hegemon. If it closes its bases in Japan and South Korea there will be an arms race between two of America's biggest trading partners and foreign creditors. The loser ends up being America.



Gringotts Bank said:


> - lower taxes for the rich
> - promotion of trickle down economic policies




He's really just lining his own pockets with those.

So yeah, all around he's a great populist and I'm sure he plays well in flyover country, but he's a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## Tisme

Since the mid 1800's,  US presidents have had good runs if they have a friend in the incumbent British Prime Minister.


----------



## luutzu

Wysiwyg said:


> Yeah saw her smart azz grin whenever Frump exposed his own low intelligence. Shows how popularity is more important than wisdom and intelligence. That could be to attract the majority of dumbos that don't know the difference.




Clinton is smart, not sure about her having wisdom though.

She's very dishonest. Just as dishonest as Trump. Though being smarter, she express it better. Hide her lies better.

Trump is petty. He just want to make money, make himself feel all important by picking on weak people personally.

Clinton is bigger than that. She destroy entire generations without flinching - and call it "tough and hard choices" that must be done for the greater good.

In politics, it seem to be bad form to mock "fat" beauty queen and not pay your sub-contractors. But to threaten nuclear annihilation on an entire country, to call war criminals friends, to love and support racist regimes while kicking the poor and lost people... that's "presidential", statesman stuff. 

As Machiavelli advised, you gotta know how to do evil well. You gotta know how to appear pious and good. You know, sending heart and prayers on the one hand; on the other there's drones, carpet bombers and all them arsenal of democracy.

Okey, rant over.


----------



## Logique

Debate round 2 on Monday noon AEDST. 



> Trump card: Donald’s polls defy Hillary’s ‘win’
> 
> Miranda Devine, The Daily Telegraph - September 28, 2016
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bl...n/news-story/3544c070cc2465d97d44324c37b62fde
> 
> ...The mainstream media for the most part mistook Hillary Clinton’s smug, catty needling of him as poise and command, and awarded her the win.
> 
> CNN declared her victory “overwhelming” at 62 per cent.
> 
> “Donald Trump’s debate performance shows he has no business being president,” sneered the Sydney Morning Herald..
> 
> ..Just as with Pauline Hanson and, to a lesser extent, John Howard and Tony Abbott, the more the Establishment demonises Trump, the stronger he becomes..
> 
> ..it will be a giant middle finger to the smug establishment whose awfulness was embodied in Clinton’s chipmunk grin yesterday as her cheap shots hit home...


----------



## basilio

*Well who would have thunk it?* That revolting, abusive, brain dead, disrespectful bag of ****e that is currently the Republican nominee for President  has repeatedly made lewd, tacky observations about women in the past and, guess what, they were on video, audio, TV, cable and wherever else the loadmouth vomited.

And it's all coming out to let people know exactly what type of creature they are considering for one of the highest offices in the world.  Now of course everyone is reviewing the thousnads of interview Rumph has done to pick out similar sentiments.

 Really want to see Miranda Devines take on Drumphs run of the mill behaviour.  She seems to think he is somehow an acceptable alternative to Hilary Clinton.

p


> *Donald Trump forced to apologise as sex boast tape horrifies Republicans*
> 
> Party and rivals condemn candidate over 2005 recording bragging about being able to grope women because of his fame
> Current Time 0:00
> /
> 
> Donald Trump’s sex boasts: ‘When you are a star they let you do anything’
> 
> Ben Jacobs and Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington
> 
> Saturday 8 October 2016 23.14 AEDT
> Last modified on Sunday 9 October 2016 07.58 AEDT
> 
> Comments
> 5,661
> Save for later
> 
> Donald Trump has been forced to apologise after a storm of condemnation and disavowals by fellow Republicans and opponents alike over obscene boasts about using his fame to sexually prey on women.
> 
> Trump’s presidential campaign was plunged into crisis on Friday when a tape recording from 2005 emerged in which he brags to a TV host that when approaching beautiful women he can “grab them by the pussy” and kiss and grope them because he is a star.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ology-as-sex-boast-tape-horrifies-republicans



> *Donald Trump to Howard Stern: It's okay to call my daughter a 'piece of ass'*
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/08/politics/trump-on-howard-stern/


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Well who would have thunk it?* That revolting, abusive, brain dead, disrespectful bag of ****e that is currently the Republican nominee for President  has repeatedly made lewd, tacky observations about women in the past and, guess what, they were on video, audio, TV, cable and wherever else the loadmouth vomited.
> 
> And it's all coming out to let people know exactly what type of creature they are considering for one of the highest offices in the world.  Now of course everyone is reviewing the thousnads of interview Rumph has done to pick out similar sentiments.
> 
> Really want to see Miranda Devines take on Drumphs run of the mill behaviour.  She seems to think he is somehow an acceptable alternative to Hilary Clinton.
> 
> p
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ology-as-sex-boast-tape-horrifies-republicans



Shows how bad Hillary is regarded over there for the polls to be so close in previous weeks.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Basilio, you think Bill Clinton wouldn't talk like that?  I'd bet all American Presidents have talked like that at some point in their lives.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> Basilio, you think Bill Clinton wouldn't talk like that?  I'd bet all American Presidents have talked like that at some point in their lives.




Kennedy was a noted womaniser, but if he had been found out beforehand would he have won the election ? He was lucky his apparachiks managed to keep it quiet. 

A lot of Republicans are religious, these revelations will do Trump no good with that demographic.


----------



## explod

Gringotts Bank said:


> Basilio, you think Bill Clinton wouldn't talk like that?  I'd bet all American Presidents have talked like that at some point in their lives.



Agree,  some of the filthy views and talk I saw as a policeman would make people squirm forever.   Human nature I'm afraid. 

Trump is a victim of his stupidity,  obvious bad upbringing,  modern recording and mass public social media.   FBI would be onto him also to ensure Clinton win. 

Very interesting times.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

explod said:


> Agree,  some of the filthy views and talk I saw as a policeman would make people squirm forever.   Human nature I'm afraid.
> 
> Trump is a victim of his stupidity,  obvious bad upbringing,  modern recording and mass public social media.   FBI would be onto him also to ensure Clinton win.
> 
> Very interesting times.




My language isn't much better.  But then again I'm not running for Pres.  

Actually the language wasn't the issue, it was the attitude of ownership/entitlement which didn't sound right.


----------



## McLovin

There's a bit of a difference between trying to f**k anything and talking the way Trump did about women. Clinton is a womaniser, but I don't think he's cut from the same mould as Trump. When I was 15 I had dinner with then Prez Bill and Hilary. I have never met a more charming guy than Bill. He was a guy who could make you feel like you could do absolutely anything. It doesn't surprise me that he does well with the gals.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> There's a bit of a difference between trying to f**k anything and talking the way Trump did about women. Clinton is a womaniser, but I don't think he's cut from the same mould as Trump. When I was 15 I had dinner with then Prez Bill and Hilary. I have never met a more charming guy than Bill. He was a guy who could make you feel like you could do absolutely anything. It doesn't surprise me that he does well with the gals.




Yeah..just ask Monica.


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> Yeah..just ask Monica.




About what?


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> About what?




The pleasure she gave Bill.


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> The pleasure she gave Bill.




It seems to have left its mark.


----------



## basilio

The lewd comments that Trump makes regarding women is not the reason he should never be President.  It is just the sum total of his abuse of Mexicans, Muslims, women, his abuse of  thousands employees and contractors, the American tax system and god knows what else (The Pope ?). His incapacity to be a leader with the temperament to be Commander in Chief of the most powerful arsenal on earth is just so obvious ...

How many millions of reasons does one need to realise he should never have gotten as close as he has to being Prez? Just crazy stuff.

Anyway it looks as if the Trump train has gone over the cliff and is hurtling into the abyss. Of course  no one will actually get hurt until it hits the ground... Meanwhile any Republican with more than two brain cells that will light up has jumped train and is hoping their handkerchiefs will work as a parachute.  Good luck to them...

__________________________________________________________________

One of the really interesting lines from the story below is the observation that reams more sexist rubbish from Drumph will be circulated from The Apprentice series. 



> * Top Republican women turn their anger on Donald Trump*
> Paul McGeough
> 
> Paul McGeough
> 
> 925 reading now
> 
> Washington: Initially a slow burn, the Republican mutiny over what amounted to Donald Trump's admission of sexual assaults became turbo-charged only when key Republican women vented their anger, through a day in which Trump's position was made more precarious as the GOP seemingly stumbled towards the unprecedented abandonment of its own nominee.
> 
> By late Saturday, at least 35 Republican members of congress and governors who had previously blessed Trump's controversial nomination withdrew their endorsement – with the call by many for him to be dropped from the ticket signalling their sense that Trump has become an existential threat to what is dubbed the party of Lincoln.




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...ican-women-turn-on-trump-20161009-gry7yq.html


----------



## McLovin

basilio said:


> The lewd comments that Trump makes regarding women is not the reason he should never be President.  It is just the sum total of his abuse of Mexicans, Muslims, women, his abuse of  thousands employees and contractors, the American tax system and god knows what else (The Pope ?). His incapacity to be a leader with the temperament to be Commander in Chief of the most powerful arsenal on earth is just so obvious ...
> 
> How many millions of reasons does one need to realise he should never have gotten as close as he has to being Prez? Just crazy stuff.
> 
> Anyway it looks as if the Trump train has gone over the cliff and is hurtling into the abyss. Of course  no one will actually get hurt until it hits the ground... Meanwhile any Republican with more than two brain cells that will light up has jumped train and is hoping their handkerchiefs will work as a parachute.  Good luck to them...




More than anything it shows the end of the Republican party. A party of government should never put forward a candidate as woeful as Trump. They're about to get chewed up and spat out.


----------



## basilio

Thought Robert De Niro summed up Trump as comprehensively as anyone.  Nice video



> See Robert De Niro Eviscerate Trump: 'I'd Like to Punch Him in the Face'
> 
> "He's so blatantly stupid. He's a punk. He's a dog. He's a pig. He's a con, a bull**** artist," actor says of candidate




http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...iro-eviscerate-blatantly-stupid-trump-w444029


----------



## Gringotts Bank

basilio said:


> Thought Robert De Niro summed up Trump as comprehensively as anyone.  Nice video
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...iro-eviscerate-blatantly-stupid-trump-w444029




I thought you were against verbal abuse?  

_"That revolting, abusive, brain dead, disrespectful bag of ****e"_... is abusive language, is it not?

Or is it that abuse it acceptable when you or De Niro do it, but not others?


----------



## Knobby22

Gringotts Bank said:


> Basilio, you think Bill Clinton wouldn't talk like that?  I'd bet all American Presidents have talked like that at some point in their lives.




Do you talk like that? I don't. Do you force yourself onto women and grope them? Do you  think groping is OK? Do you think Rolf Harris  was hard done by? Do you think that all the women coming out saying Trump did it to them are lying?

Do you think you would want someone like that to be your bank manager? Head of a public  company? An Obudsman? Head of the Reserve bank?

What about US President?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Knobby22 said:


> Do you talk like that?




Nope.  I'd appreciate if you'd take your aggression out on a more appropriate target.  Or even better, don't attack anyone at all.  If you'd read my previous posts before flying off the handle you'd get an idea of my view on Trump.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> There's a bit of a difference between trying to f**k anything and talking the way Trump did about women. Clinton is a womaniser, but I don't think he's cut from the same mould as Trump. When I was 15 I had dinner with then Prez Bill and Hilary. I have never met a more charming guy than Bill. He was a guy who could make you feel like you could do absolutely anything. It doesn't surprise me that he does well with the gals.




Yea, Bill is a real charmer. Like all other snake oil salesman. I'm sure the people of Haiti found him and his Foundation to have been wonderful too.

We seriously think Bill and Hill have better character and moral than Trump?

Trump uses his money, fame and power to attract and abuse women... Bill doesn't? Women just fall all over themselves and Bill just didn't stop them? He didn't put on that Southern charm, I feel your pain puppy-eyed presidential power to bed women?


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> We seriously think Bill and Hill have better character and moral than Trump?




Nope. Do I think they have a better idea of the world around them? Yep.

Trump, and the dullards who support him, live in some other world; populism is a powerful drug.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Nope. Do I think they have a better idea of the world around them? Yep.
> 
> Trump, and the dullards who support him, live in some other world; populism is a powerful drug.




I don't think the Clintons really have a clue about the real world. 

Sure they know how to play the game, know how to politics and bargains and win friends in high places... but that ain't the real world.

The real world is where the normal poor plebs lives. And in that world, the Clintons have no clue. If they have had any clue, their policies would be drastically different. If Hillary know what's going on in the world of her subject are living in, she'd be saying the same stuff Bernie Sanders have said, and FDR have done, and she really mean it.

For her to parrot what Sanders are saying, then behind closed doors smugly tell her donors those Sanders ideas are crazy and unrealistic.. .that's someone who doesn't give a crap, and doesn't have a clue.

------

Trump's supporters are not all racist and stupid idiots like they're made out to be.

They're real people who've been screwed by both parties and are clinging to any hope for a change. 

To have the likes of Hillary carrying on business as usual - where on the Right, those angry and left behind are called stupid racist; and on the Left are call young stupid idealist... and where Hillary is the realistic adults governing for all "moderate" Americans - that's the kind of hubris and stupidity that will bring the house down.


The great thing about democracy is that its free speech and elections allow the public to vent their grievances. Smart leaders would listen and start to not push their luck. 

Here, the establishment just shrugs off the popularity of a no-body "radical" socialist as some accident; then at the same time shrugs off the right-wing nut job that is Trump as also an accident.

So the US can either keep going the way it has and just militarize the police and crack harder on protestors and jailing activists... or it could start to listen and really address the grievances. Because real change is coming, peacefully or otherwise - there's mass demand for it and so far no one's delivering.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> I don't think the Clintons really have a clue about the real world.




I made a relative statement.



luutzu said:


> Trump's supporters are not all racist and stupid idiots like they're made out to be.




They're not all racists I agree. If you really believe Donald Trump will fix your problems then yes, you are stupid.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> I made a relative statement.
> 
> 
> 
> They're not all racists I agree. If you really believe Donald Trump will fix your problems then yes, you are stupid.




Yea, as stupid as someone who actually believe Hillary Clinton will fix anyone's problem. Unless her corporate pals run into problem, forget about it.

It's stupid to do the same thing hoping for different results. So for Trump supporters, at least they're not voting for the same old bs believing it'll be different this time. That take some smarts.

Name one thing Hillary have done that has help the average American, or help make the world a more peaceful place.

Gun control? Healthcare? Regulate predatory lending? Financial regulation? Negotiate with enemies instead of pushing to overthrow or flatten them; taking on Russia; seriously question why the US can't just drone Wikileak's Assange - like, she seriously ask why Assange can't be bombed.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Name one thing Hillary have done that has help the average American, or help make the world a more peaceful place.




Did I say anywhere that she has or would? She isn't the one running around yelling about "making America great again".


----------



## SirRumpole

Kennedy, Clinton, Trump, Nixon whoever, their behaviour just proves that power corrupts and needs to be checked.

Putin probably carries on the same way, but no one dares question his behaviour.


----------



## Knobby22

Gringotts Bank said:


> Nope.  I'd appreciate if you'd take your aggression out on a more appropriate target.  Or even better, don't attack anyone at all.  If you'd read my previous posts before flying off the handle you'd get an idea of my view on Trump.




Sorry. I had been reading an article about what he did to this young couple. Touched her up, reneged on contract. I was a bit strong. I know you don't condone his behaviour.


----------



## wayneL

I guess now this will have cut the second worst option for the US out of the race, in favour of the worst option. 

The US is ####ed, and we're ####ed by proxy.


----------



## wayneL

wayneL said:


> I guess now this will have cut the second worst option for the US out of the race, in favour of the worst option.
> 
> The US is ####ed, and we're ####ed by proxy.




Actually, Bernie was the most catastrophically worst option, but he's out of it.


----------



## Tisme

It's like deja vu two elections ago here. Anyone remember the Americans aghast at our Prime Minister's mouth in gear, brain in neutral embarrassments?

John McLean would probably poll better than the two, perhaps Bruce Willis will run?


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Did I say anywhere that she has or would? She isn't the one running around yelling about "making America great again".




All politician run around saying the exact same thing, just different wording, different "vision". Clinton is no exception.


----------



## explod

Found the debate interesting,  Trump possessed a lot more content that will ring for voters.  And the following excerpt from Zero Hedge today could arm him for an interesting contest ahead.  A pri.k he might be but he's not going to give in.



> Hillary’s War in Syria is another expensive American adventure in nation building as the US inserts itself into the Syrian Civil War ostensibly to restrain the United States’ sworn enemy ISIS (or “ISIL” as the Obama Admin. prefers). Obama’s manner of fighting this war consistently shows a different objective ”” regime change. While that’s clear to everyone, Wikileaks’ exposure of Hillary Clinton’s emails makes it clear that US intrusion in the Syrian Civil War is really all about Iran and Israel.
> 
> Both the US and Russia want to defeat ISIS, but only the US wants to make sure Syria’s President Bashar Assad is overthrown. The United State’s ulterior motive of regime change is the reason for the stalemate last week between Russia and the United States that resulted in a significant move back to cold-war status. I think everyone has generally observed that the US-Russian disagreement is not about how to fight ISIS but about regime change in Syria. What many might not know yet is how last week’s eruption goes back to Hillary Clinton during her time as Secretary of State.
> 
> 
> 
> Wikileaks archive of Clinton emails shows this is Hillary’s War with Syria
> 
> 
> The Syrian Civil War began in 2011 ”” the middle of Hillary Clinton’s term as US Secretary of State. Unmarked NATO war planes began arriving in Turkey that same year, delivering weapons absconded from Libya where America participated in another war for regime change. The planes also transported volunteer Libyan soldiers. (In my view, a mission clearly outside of NATO’s charter, which was to form an alliance under which all members would fight to protect any individual member if it was attacked, not to transform the world. No one in Syria was attacking any NATO member.) By December of 2011, the CIA and US special ops also began providing communication support to Syrian forces seeking to topple Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
> 
> Having advised President Obama to enter the Libyan Civil War, Hillary Clinton assured the press at the start of the Syrian Civil War that the United States would not similarly involve itself in that conflict. However, some documents exposed recently by Wikileaks show that Hillary’s advice to the president to enter the US into Libya’s Civil War came with a clear and intentional connection to topple the Assad regime:
> 
> In one document labeled “CONFIDENTIAL,” Sidney Blumenthal, a former aide to President Bill Clinton and long-time confidante to Hillary Clinton, wrote the following to Hillary:
> 
> 
> 
> Assad’ s gestures at reform are delusional attempts to recreate the pattern of his own recent past when he gained a modicum of respect from the West. Likely the most important event that could alter the Syrian equation would be the fall of Qaddafi, providing an example of a successful rebellion. (Wikileaks


----------



## Logique

Thought The Donald did better in Debate 2. He got the biggest audience cheers.

Even or slightly ahead, and might have won clearly - except for that prowling tiger, too many cups of coffee thing, undoubtedly a big turn-off for the women viewers.  Just sit down Donald. We'll hear plenty more about that on the ABC and in Fairfax.


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> Thought The Donald did better in Debate 2. He got the biggest audience cheers.
> 
> Even or slightly ahead, and might have won clearly - except for that prowling tiger, too many cups of coffee thing, undoubtedly a big turn-off for the women viewers.  Just sit down Donald. We'll hear plenty more about that on the ABC and in Fairfax.




Saw bits and pieces but it looks like he did much better than the first round. When he mentioned the women bill had affairs with or raped; or the then 12 year old rape victim whose rapist Hillary defended, and how she laughed at the rape victim then.... wooo... I think her face went all red.

Very low tactic, but then again, it's not like Hillary's campaign played nice and took the high road.

Not sure if it's a smart move on Hillary's campaign to be playing this kind of gutter politics against the orange ape though. And her pretending all surprised about the leaks of him being his a hole self in private... Don't go there, those who like him will like him; those who would be turned off by his bs wouldn't be waiting until now to dislike him.

I'm surprised this thing is still a contest. But it is.


----------



## basilio

Does anyone remember *The Art of the Deal* This was Donald Trumps book of the 80's that stamped him as a clever, driven businessman.

In fact it was ghost written by journalist Tony Schwartz. How he came to  pitch andwrite the book, what he discovered about Donald Trump in the process, how he constructed a warmer, wittier man makes a great read.

Check it out



> *Donald Trump’s Ghostwriter Tells All*
> *“The Art of the Deal” made America see Trump as a charmer with an unfailing knack for business. Tony Schwartz helped create that myth””and regrets it.*
> By Jane Mayer
> “I put lipstick on a pig,” Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter, says. He feels “deep remorse.”
> 
> Last June, as dusk fell outside Tony Schwartz’s sprawling house, on a leafy back road in Riverdale, New York, he pulled out his laptop and caught up with the day’s big news: Donald J. Trump had declared his candidacy for President. As Schwartz watched a video of the speech, he began to feel personally implicated.
> 
> Trump, facing a crowd that had gathered in the lobby of Trump Tower, on Fifth Avenue, laid out his qualifications, saying, “We need a leader that wrote ‘The Art of the Deal.’ ” If that was so, Schwartz thought, then he, not Trump, should be running. Schwartz dashed off a tweet: “Many thanks Donald Trump for suggesting I run for President, based on the fact that I wrote ‘The Art of the Deal.’ ”
> 
> Schwartz had ghostwritten Trump’s 1987 breakthrough memoir, earning a joint byline on the cover, half of the book’s five-hundred-thousand-dollar advance, and half of the royalties. The book was a phenomenal success, spending forty-eight weeks on the Times best-seller list, thirteen of them at No. 1. More than a million copies have been bought, generating several million dollars in royalties. The book expanded Trump’s renown far beyond New York City, making him an emblem of the successful tycoon. Edward Kosner, the former editor and publisher of New York, where Schwartz worked as a writer at the time, says, “Tony created Trump. He’s Dr. Frankenstein.”




http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Does anyone remember *The Art of the Deal* This was Donald Trumps book of the 80's that stamped him as a clever, driven businessman.
> 
> In fact it was ghost written by journalist Tony Schwartz. How he came to  pitch andwrite the book, what he discovered about Donald Trump in the process, how he constructed a warmer, wittier man makes a great read.
> 
> Check it out
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all





I actually bought the book - used for $5.95. Yea, I was young and stupid.

I don't remember it painting a very good picture of him though. Sure he brag about stuff, but his first run into NY real estate and business starts with a lie - about how awesome he is. Then there's the trick he pulled on investors by having bulldozers moving dirt around to show investors he's busy building and it's working great... then his pride in saying how the US tax code allow depreciation expenses when he doesn't spend a dime fixing his buildings but still get to deduct that expense and pay no tax.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> I actually bought the book - used for $5.95. Yea, I was young and stupid.
> 
> I don't remember it painting a very good picture of him though. Sure he brag about stuff, but his first run into NY real estate and business starts with a lie - about how awesome he is. Then there's the trick he pulled on investors by having bulldozers moving dirt around to show investors he's busy building and it's working great... then his pride in saying how the US tax code allow depreciation expenses when he doesn't spend a dime fixing his buildings but still get to deduct that expense and pay no tax.




How good a businessman is he if he made a $900 million loss ?


----------



## qldfrog

SirRumpole said:


> How good a businessman is he if he made a $900 million loss ?



In all this Trump bashing, I really wish i could be as bad a business man as Trump, even a 1% of his "failed business" would be great for me.
We should also use a mirror sometimes:
"his pride in saying how the US tax code allow depreciation expenses when he doesn't spend a dime fixing his buildings but still get to deduct that expense and pay no tax."

Every IP owner can/should used the ATO legal depreciation schedule which is exactly what he states in the above:
It is a shame isn't it but even better in Australia, you can claim depreciation AND claim any repair you would actually do...


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> In all this Trump bashing, I really wish i could be as bad a business man as Trump, even a 1% of his "failed business" would be great for me.
> We should also use a mirror sometimes:
> "his pride in saying how the US tax code allow depreciation expenses when he doesn't spend a dime fixing his buildings but still get to deduct that expense and pay no tax."
> 
> Every IP owner can/should used the ATO legal depreciation schedule which is exactly what he states in the above:
> It is a shame isn't it but even better in Australia, you can claim depreciation AND claim any repair you would actually do...




Depreciation is a real expense - just the company and its management can choose to claim it but defer the fixing and maintenance expense. But it will come.

So for Trump to say that it's just an accounting thing... well he doesn't really look after his property or just doesn't know business.

Say you rent out a property. You can claim this and that expense over whatever years the ATO allows you; can claim immediate repairs that's needed on top... then does diddly with the place. But buildings do deteriorate and wears out. 

I think that's why there are slump landlords renting out unsafe properties. Like Trump.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> How good a businessman is he if he made a $900 million loss ?




Trump loss more than that over his career. Lucky for him he loss other people's money, and some of that loss goes directly into his pocket.

I think he goes bankrupt about 6 times. The good thing about the tax codes there is, it seem, they let rich corporate types like him off when they declare bankruptcy. No one can touch his other assets.

His own father bailed him out at least once; and he inherited about $50m from the old man's estate. Some report last year said that if you have $50m when Trump did and just put it into an index fund, you'd be just as rich as Trump - without any effort.

He's a good salesman, got a big loud mouth on him. But he's still better than the Clintons in that, at least with him, he make his money in the market where investors can be taken advantaged off, I guess. The Clintons got some $2billion+ in their "charity" foundation, got hundreds of millions for speaking and book deals... all from knowing how to leverage their position as political leaders.

In other words, the Clinton sell out the American public to corporate interests - maybe even foreign interests - while they ought to be protecting and serving the people. Trump is just a business man out for himself.. .can't fault the guy for being an amoral a hole for that.


----------



## basilio

Well Luutzu  "The Art of The Deal " was the well spruced up, sanitized version of Donald Trump.  If you thought it still smelt what was the real story ?
__________________________________________________  ___________________

John Oliver did a number on Donald Trump and the Republican Party over the open mike comments he made on Friday. Spectacularly incisive and spares no one in the process.



> *'This is on you': John Oliver ridicules
> Republicans over Trump groping tape*
> 
> The Last Week Tonight host called the taped comments ‘entirely in character’ for the businessman, condemning Paul Ryan and Billy Bush in the process
> 
> 
> Nigel M Smith
> @nigelmfs
> 
> Tuesday 11 October 2016 04.51 AEDT
> Last modified on Tuesday 11 October 2016 08.04 AEDT
> 
> John Oliver once again offered a searing critique of Donald Trump on Last Week Tonight – not for his performance during the second, restive presidential debate (he taped the show prior to its live airing), but for the Republican nominee’s vulgar comments about women that threaten to derail his campaign.
> 
> “Yes, that is audio of Donald Trump in 2005 telling a giggling Billy Bush that one of the perks of fame is that he can grab women’s genitalia without permission,” Oliver said after playing the 2005 recording of the billionaire business man bragging about attempting to “****” married women. “Since [last week], we have sunk so low we are breaking through the earth’s crust where drowning in boiling magma will come as sweet, sweet relief.”



https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...n-oliver-trump-groping-tape-last-week-tonight


----------



## basilio

Luutzu you have made a number of comments that suggest the Clinton Foundation is somehow corrupt or a sell out to foreign interests ? I'm not sure what information you are using or what exactly you are saying but I thought this analysis from an organisation that analyses  philanthropic bodies was useful.



> * What the Heck Does the Clinton Foundation Actually DO? *
> Author David Callahan
> 
> The Clinton Foundation is back in the spotlight, with Donald Trump charging this month that the “Russians, the Saudis, the Chinese all gave money to Bill and Hillary and got favorable treatment in return." A range of other critics have piled on, including the Capital Research Center, which calls the foundation a “cauldron of conflict and cronyism.”
> 
> There are lots of good reasons for digging into the Clinton Foundation right now. But one question that gets surprisingly little attention is the most basic: What does this place actually do?




http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/h...-does-the-clinton-foundation-actually-do.html

Other analysis of Clinton Foundation
http://insidephilanthropy.squarespa...k-at-the-wsjs-clueless-attack-on-the-cli.html


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Luutzu you have made a number of comments that suggest the Clinton Foundation is somehow corrupt or a sell out to foreign interests ? I'm not sure what information you are using or what exactly you are saying but I thought this analysis from an organisation that analyses  philanthropic bodies was useful.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/h...-does-the-clinton-foundation-actually-do.html
> 
> Other analysis of Clinton Foundation
> http://insidephilanthropy.squarespa...k-at-the-wsjs-clueless-attack-on-the-cli.html





Pretty weren't suggesting. But saying they're corrupt. 

I think they spent around 10 to 20% of the donation a year on charity and other programmes. The rest they kept for future urgent programmes?

One of the above articles say people just don't understand how modern charitable foundation works. Yea, OK.

My parents and in-laws are relatively poor people with a few dollars to spare, but they sure know how to change lives every year, on a monthly basis. And they don't have all the conventions and hundreds of millions to do it.

Giving money away is very easy. If you'd want to. 


That and no politician should make or have access to some $2B dollars from their political work and not be doing any donors any favour. It just doesn't work that way.

How many other senior politicians have the kind of contributions the Clintons has? None.

Why? Because once they're out of office, they're of no use to the charitable hearts of corporations and dictators. Why the Clintons get all them cash? Because Bill and Hill tag team... he was president, she then became Senator, Sec of State, and now the likely president.


People who are kind and charitable... when they are in power and can literally change hundreds of millions of lives with a few meetings and hard words... the world they'd leave behind after office is very different to the ones the Clintons left behind.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Well Luutzu  "The Art of The Deal " was the well spruced up, sanitized version of Donald Trump.  If you thought it still smelt what was the real story ?
> __________________________________________________  ___________________
> 
> ...




I can't remember much. There's no scandal or anything in it, of course. Just the typical retelling of his exploits and awesomeness.

He admire and love his father; he learn a few things about building skyscrapers in NY and there's such a thing as air-rights. He built the ice ring very effectively while the gov't, as usual, screw things up and his awesomeness just click his fingers and it's done.

But yea, the US and the world is not in a good place if he's president. Well, it won't be in any better place if Clinton is president either. But maybe with Clinton, if enough popular movement and protests rise up enough, she might not crack all their heads and call them terrorists and Latinos to be deported. She might even tell her donors to give the people some crumbs.

The Donald will go all martial on protestors hinnies.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

This is very :


----------



## basilio

Nice one Gringott.  Unbelievably good.
So while we are at it perhaps a Leonard Cohen reflection on the 2016 American election ? Does it speak to you ?


----------



## basilio

I take what you are saying Luutzu. If Bill Clinton was just a retired President the Clinton Foundation was a power of good. 

But with Hilary Clinton still an active politician seeking Presidency the connections being made with all sorts of real and potential supporters is not right. Just too much potential for undue influence.

This includes the broader range of charitable/political  institutions.  The conservative side of politics has reams of orgs putting themselves in the pockets of politicians. 

But at the same time Hilary is at least a competent leader. Trump isn't. I think it is a sad and desperate situation. The rich can't keep getting richer. If Hilary won't address that issue, in my view there will be a Big Bang in American politics.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I take what you are saying Luutzu. If Bill Clinton was just a retired President the Clinton Foundation was a power of good.
> 
> But with Hilary Clinton still an active politician seeking Presidency the connections being made with all sorts of real and potential supporters is not right. Just too much potential for undue influence.
> 
> This includes the broader range of charitable/political  institutions.  The conservative side of politics has reams of orgs putting themselves in the pockets of politicians.
> 
> But at the same time Hilary is at least a competent leader. Trump isn't. I think it is a sad and desperate situation. The rich can't keep getting richer. If Hilary won't address that issue, in my view there will be a Big Bang in American politics.




Saw some interview before where the journalist said that Bill's speaking fees was drying up soon after he left office. But when Hillary ran for the Senate, it starts to pick up again.

Big corporations paying big bucks to hear his wisdom. Then it got bigger and more frequent once she's SOS. 

I don't think any other former president earn the kind of cash Bill has after office. 

---

Yea, Trump is just nasty. He's incompetent in every way. 

But with Trump, the public are slowly hearing the rort that's been going on more clearly. I mean, Guiliani and Chris Christies are defending Trump's tax evasion... saying it's "genius" to not pay tax and play the system.

Trump ripped Clinton for taking corporate cash and lying etc.

These aren't new, but it's never really been so publicly expressed like that. And so people might start asking whether that's the kind of thing they want to put up with.

In a democracy, that might lead to peaceful change. 

With Clinton winning, they will obviously think everything's fine... and that kind of arrogance and bubble tend to result in violent civil unrest. 


People want real change, and no one's delivering.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> People want real change, and no one's delivering.





Trump was going to provide some real change but he seems to have completely rolled over.
Tax cuts to the top 1% really doesn't cut it as real change. Increasing defence spending isn't change either.
Earlier on he was saying quite different things but he has been completely got at or lost any slight vision he had.

Hillary may have the chance to achieve real change if they can stop the Republicans controlling the house. They are the real problem as they have pretty much blocked everything for 20 years (which would still happen under Trump). The best scenario for the USA is a massive Hillary win, and even though I think she is lacking somewhat, it may end up being transforming for the country as things could get done!!

She could then get kicked out at the next election with a swing the other way and the Republicans could then get things done!


----------



## McLovin

The GOP have given up winning the presidential election and are sandbagging what they can in the congress. Some of the swings against Trump in very red states are painting a picture of a total whitewash. Before the last weekend, Clinton by my reckoning needed to only win either Florida, Pennsylvania or Ohio and she would take the White House. It looks as though she will take all three. She also has a chance of picking up Arizona, which hasn't gone blue in 20 years. The path for to the WH for Trump was very narrow and pretty much doesn't exist anymore. 

Clinton will end up with around about 330 electoral college votes.


----------



## Knobby22

McLovin said:


> The GOP have given up winning the presidential election and are sandbagging what they can in the congress. Some of the swings against Trump in very red states are painting a picture of a total whitewash. Before the last weekend, Clinton by my reckoning needed to only win either Florida, Pennsylvania or Ohio and she would take the White House. It looks as though she will take all three. She also has a chance of picking up Arizona, which hasn't gone blue in 20 years. The path for to the WH for Trump was very narrow and pretty much doesn't exist anymore.
> 
> Clinton will end up with around about 330 electoral college votes.




Does she have much chance of control of the three houses, McLovin?


----------



## McLovin

Knobby22 said:


> Does she have much chance of control of the three houses, McLovin?




They've got a better than even money chance in the Senate, the House is a long shot though. It really just depends how much Trump bombs from here and whether the GOP can insulate themselves from him (as ridiculous as a party insulating itself from its prez candidate sounds!).

In America there is no version of the AEC and electoral boundaries are the plaything of politicians. Every state sets its own method for how it selects its electoral college voters (there is no constitutional requirement for a popular vote) and the method of voting (remember the hanging chads in 2000). Both sides have gerrymandered the hell out of the electoral districts along race/income lines for generations. As I understand, the GOP did a fair bit in 2010 which makes it even more difficult for the Dems to take back power in the House.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> The GOP have given up winning the presidential election and are sandbagging what they can in the congress. Some of the swings against Trump in very red states are painting a picture of a total whitewash. Before the last weekend, Clinton by my reckoning needed to only win either Florida, Pennsylvania or Ohio and she would take the White House. It looks as though she will take all three. She also has a chance of picking up Arizona, which hasn't gone blue in 20 years. The path for to the WH for Trump was very narrow and pretty much doesn't exist anymore.
> 
> Clinton will end up with around about 330 electoral college votes.




Were those prediction before or after you read the latest WikiLeaks?

People who likes Trumps or lean towards him when he said all that crazy stuff about coloured people, tax cuts for the rich... they might now change their mind because it's shown he talks dirty and brag about getting away with sexual assault because he's famous? 


A few stuff I heard from WikiLeaks:

- Clinton: you need to hold two opinions - one to entertain the plebs, the other real one to do what's right for 'merka.

- You Wall St guys are the smartest; the American people just don't understand how hard and full of integrity you guys are; they've wrongfully blamed you for the GFC; people are envious of success.

- I'm out of touch. I was poor once, raised in a home where my father doesn't believe in mortgages and bankers (the type I'm talking to) so he saved up and bought the house in cash. Which is fair enough, but I'm rich now and so can't really identify with working people.

- 2013 or 14: To declare a no fly zone means taking out all of Syria's air defences; they are located in populated areas so a lot of people will get kill. (and it will also mean boots on the ground, jets in the air to enforce, taking on the Russians).... throughout 2015 to now... WE NEED A NO FLY ZONE IN SYRIA! 


But for sure she will win, both the RNC and the DNC will rig this election for her. 

But yea, a lot of people will hate Trump's bad manners so much they'd turn out to vote for this kind of warmongering, total disdain for the people and their welfare, all to benefit war profiteers and the already masters of the universe.


----------



## Knobby22

Good stuff except its untrue. 

Newsweek proves that WikiLeaks is leaking phony “Hillary Clinton emails” to try to hurt her 
http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/ne...is-leaking-fake-hillary-clinton-emails/26271/


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> Good stuff except its untrue.
> 
> Newsweek proves that WikiLeaks is leaking phony “Hillary Clinton emails” to try to hurt her
> http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/ne...is-leaking-fake-hillary-clinton-emails/26271/




not newsweek but the "daily bin"; name says it all and when they name Wikileaks as:
"international hacker *terrorist *group WikiLeaks "....
so far Wikileak has a pretty good record in given real documents that the Powers in place do not like and real info vs the BS we are fed by the media.
So between them and even Newsweek, i know where I believe the truth has the most chances to be.....
Sorry but yes Hillary is rotten to the core, and do not take me wrong not less or more than most other top level politicians with her power experience, Trump being a dimwit bastard should not blind people as to what the opposition is.


----------



## Knobby22

It's just a link, within it is the Newsweek article link. It is comprehensive.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> not newsweek but the "daily bin"; name says it all and when they name Wikileaks as:
> "international hacker *terrorist *group WikiLeaks "....
> so far Wikileak has a pretty good record in given real documents that the Powers in place do not like and real info vs the BS we are fed by the media.
> So between them and even Newsweek, i know where I believe the truth has the most chances to be.....
> Sorry but yes Hillary is rotten to the core, and do not take me wrong not less or more than most other top level politicians with her power experience, Trump being a dimwit bastard should not blind people as to what the opposition is.




Yea, Clinton want the public to trust her over hard copies of WikiLeak's leaks.

No wonder she was seriously asking her State dept. why they can't drone or otherwise take Assange and WikiLeaks out - permanently.

And what's all these from her about the Russian wanting Trump to win. How are the Russians bad, even if we can prove they hacked for all those emails, how? They're bad and want Trump to win because they reveal what she's really all about? What the DNC says about the people?


----------



## CanOz

I just can't put into words how bad this election cycle is....my father would be in total disbelief...the two US political parties need to go. It's time for real change.


----------



## McLovin

CanOz said:


> I just can't put into words how bad this election cycle is....my father would be in total disbelief...the two US political parties need to go. It's time for real change.




It's pretty awful, and as much as I dislike Clinton the thought of Trump being President actually scares me. It will have real consequences for Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> It's pretty awful, and as much as I dislike Clinton the thought of Trump being President actually scares me. It will have real consequences for Australia.




I can understand why people don't like Trump, but what is Clinton's problem ? She seems to have the experience to do the job.


----------



## CanOz

SirRumpole said:


> I can understand why people don't like Trump, but what is Clinton's problem ? She seems to have the experience to do the job.




I really think she's a crook. A snob....out of touch with reality...I think that sort of person is just as dangerous as Trump. She didn't get wealthy being honest...she didn't get wealthy by being a good business person...she got wealthy taking money in turn for promises yet to be delivered.....that's why there is so much power backing her....she's owes them, big time.


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> I really think she's a crook. A snob....out of touch with reality...I think that sort of person is just as dangerous as Trump. She didn't get wealthy being honest...she didn't get wealthy by being a good business person...she got wealthy taking money in turn for promises yet to be delivered.....that's why there is so much power backing her....she's owes them, big time.




By wealth do you mean the Clinton Foundation ? It seems to be a do good organisation. If it made the Clintons personally wealthy as well then that would seem to be a mis-use of money that people gave in good faith. Or maybe it's just a money laundering operation, I don't know.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> I can understand why people don't like Trump, but what is Clinton's problem ? She seems to have the experience to do the job.




It's her experience that's the problem.

Selling out the masses; know who butter your bread and who are too poor to even put food on the table.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> By wealth do you mean the Clinton Foundation ? It seems to be a do good organisation. If it made the Clintons personally wealthy as well then that would seem to be a mis-use of money that people gave in good faith. Or maybe it's just a money laundering operation, I don't know.




I think the foundation have about $2billion in asset. Reporter found they spent about 10% of each year's donation on charities.

Are the world's poor having it so good that the Clintons are finding it hard to give money away?


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> I think the foundation have about $2billion in asset. Reporter found they spent about 10% of each year's donation on charities.
> 
> Are the world's poor having it so good that the Clintons are finding it hard to give money away?




Most of the charitable donations are done in house, the 10% relates the amount given to other charities.

Asked for some examples of the work it performs itself, the Clinton Foundation listed these:
◾Clinton Development Initiative staff in Africa train rural farmers and help them get access to seeds, equipment and markets for their crops.
◾Clinton Climate Initiative staff help governments in Africa and the Caribbean region with reforestation efforts, and in island nations to help develop renewable energy projects.
◾Staff at the Clinton Health Access Initiative, an independent, affiliated entity, work in dozens of nations to lower the cost of HIV/AIDS medicine, scale up pediatric AIDS treatment and promote treatment of diarrhea through life-saving Zinc/ORS treatment.
◾Clinton Health Matters staff work with local governments and businesses in the United States to develop wellness and physical activity plans.


Don't ask about the Trump Foundation though if you don't want to see corruption in action!

I am saddened that Trump is so useless, if he had of been a great man then he would have been great for America. Clinton is essentially a conservative and nothing much will change with her.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Most of the charitable donations are done in house, the 10% relates the amount given to other charities.
> 
> Asked for some examples of the work it performs itself, the Clinton Foundation listed these:
> ◾Clinton Development Initiative staff in Africa train rural farmers and help them get access to seeds, equipment and markets for their crops.
> ◾Clinton Climate Initiative staff help governments in Africa and the Caribbean region with reforestation efforts, and in island nations to help develop renewable energy projects.
> ◾Staff at the Clinton Health Access Initiative, an independent, affiliated entity, work in dozens of nations to lower the cost of HIV/AIDS medicine, scale up pediatric AIDS treatment and promote treatment of diarrhea through life-saving Zinc/ORS treatment.
> ◾Clinton Health Matters staff work with local governments and businesses in the United States to develop wellness and physical activity plans.
> 
> 
> Don't ask about the Trump Foundation though if you don't want to see corruption in action!
> 
> I am saddened that Trump is so useless, if he had of been a great man then he would have been great for America. Clinton is essentially a conservative and nothing much will change with her.




Yea, can't ask Trump whether he's awesome and want to be a better man or not. Can't ask the Clintons what good they've done with their Foundation either.

If Bill and Hill really, genuinely, fearlessly want to do good and save the world... they'd done it with all those 30 years or more in politics where Bill was a governor, then president; she a Senator, SOS.

What good can they do now with $2B that they couldn't have done back then when, say, Bill has the office of the presidency and all that power? She a Senator and SES. 

So the Foundation is nothing more than a tax-free way to launder money. They control the cash, that mean they have the influence and access to its assets as if it were in their own bank account. 


So Clinton will win, American politics will go on as it has... then one day a clean, honest, patriotic American war hero turn up and promise that change the people want, if only they'd give him all the power. And they will give it to him.

Rome was a Republic for, what, 700 years before Julius Caesar thought he'd take the whole dam place over.

Living History, like the title of one of her $10m payback-day book.


----------



## Knobby22

Yea, Clarke and Dawe say it all. Quite funny. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-13/clarke-and-dawe:-the-presidential-race-is/7929574


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, Clarke and Dawe say it all. Quite funny.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-13/clarke-and-dawe:-the-presidential-race-is/7929574




They are always on the money.  I thought this was particularly clever with Dawe offering a "sotto voce" alternative analysis of the candidates.


----------



## basilio

The New York Times has published a number of claims by women who allege Donald Trump assaulted them.

Naturally of course Donald has been totally outraged at such fabrications, demanded the allegations be withdrawn and said he will sue The New York Times for libel.

The response ?  Love it.  Read the rest.



> ...The  essence of a libel claim, of course, is the protection of one's reputation. Mr. Trump has bragged about his non-consensual sexual touching of women. He has bragged about intruding on beauty pageant contestants in their dressing rooms. He acquiesced to a radio host's request to discuss Mr. Trump's own daughter as a "piece of ass." Multiple women not mentioned in our article have publicly come forward to report on Mr. Trump's unwanted advances. Nothing in our article has had the slightest effect on the reputation that Mr. Trump, through his own words and actions, has already created for himself. ..




https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3141719/Response.pdf


----------



## noco

Anna Bligh threw as much dirt she could rake up about Campbell Newman and look where that got her.

The same thing could back fire on Clinton.......Most people don't like this sort of  personal crucifixion.......Some of is also being fabricated to make Trump look bad.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Anna Bligh threw as much dirt she could rake up about Campbell Newman and look where that got her.




Government wasn't it ?


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Government wasn't it ?




Welcome back Rumpy.

You are once again getting yourself all mixed up with Anna and Anastasia....They are two different women.

No, Anna Bligh went under leaving her and 6 others in the Labor state opposition...She then resigned and there was a bi-election.

Anastasia Palaszxzuk won the next election with her popular propaganda......"NO ASSETTS WILL BE SOLD UNDER THE GOVERNMENT I LEAD"......Ah la Julia Gillrad......She still has a debt of $80 billion left over from Beattie and Bligh........She has now back flipped  and is now on the road to sell much of the government assets.......Liar....Liar.....Liar.

Newman went to the last election seeking public approval to sell or lease some assets to pay off Labor's bad debt resulting in him narrowly losing that election......Sounds like Labor's "MEDISCARE" LIE. 

What ever it takes.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Welcome back Rumpy.
> 
> You are once again getting yourself all mixed up with Anna and Anastasia....They are two different women.
> 
> No, Anna Bligh went under leaving her and 6 others in the Labor state opposition...She then resigned and there was a bi-election.
> 
> Anastasia Palaszxzuk won the next election with her popular propaganda......"NO ASSETTS WILL BE SOLD UNDER THE GOVERNMENT I LEAD"......Ah la Julia Gillrad......She still has a debt of $80 billion left over from Beattie and Bligh........She has now back flipped  and is now on the road to sell much of the government assets.......Liar....Liar.....Liar.
> 
> Newman went to the last election seeking public approval to sell or lease some assets to pay off Labor's bad debt resulting in him narrowly losing that election......Sounds like Labor's "MEDISCARE" LIE.
> 
> What ever it takes.




Oh my apologies. Yes I mixed them up, so sorry.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Oh my apologies. Yes I mixed them up, so sorry.




Apology accepted,,


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> Anna Bligh threw as much dirt she could rake up about Campbell Newman and look where that got her.
> 
> .




Well apart from Campbell doing what Libs do and using the public service to pursue false claims of impropriety against previous "honorable members" of parliament, she probably managed to educate the electorate on what would happen and subsequently did, thus Campbell's loss at the polls.


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> Well apart from Campbell doing what Libs do and using the public service to pursue false claims of impropriety against previous "honorable members" of parliament, she probably managed to educate the electorate on what would happen and subsequently did, thus Campbell's loss at the polls.




And what were those false claims?


----------



## bellenuit

Superb speech by Michelle Obama. I know eloquent people don't necessarily make great politicians, but I somehow feel that she is exactly what the US needs. Maybe on 2020.


----------



## Tisme

Grooming:



> A 1992 wire report carried in newspapers, including the Chicago Tribune, quotes Trump telling two 14-year-old girls, “Wow! Just think””in a couple of years I’ll be dating you.”






http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...e&tse_id=INF_71e608a0919e11e6b6db4d0235f40af5


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Superb speech by Michelle Obama. I know eloquent people don't necessarily make great politicians, but I somehow feel that she is exactly what the US needs. Maybe on 2020.




That would mean over 30years of presidencies from only 3 families:1zhelp::1zhelp:

I can't count the ways I would say no way


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> That would mean over 30years of presidencies from only 3 families:1zhelp::1zhelp:
> 
> I can't count the ways I would say no way




You probably wouldn't have minded if Jeb Bush got in though ?


----------



## basilio

Trump has found the answer to his lying accusers  !! Remember that crazy businesswomen who said that the Don turned into an octupus and basically mauled her in the First Class seats of an American flight ?

Turns out that someone else was sitting in the next seat on that flight and  clearly remembers that in fact it was the woman who was all over The Don  !  Fancy that. 35 years later and he can clearly remember an incident on a plane trip (that wasn't some incredible killing/orgy/whatever). And obviously the Trump campaign managers have fully checked out this guys credentials.

Isn't truth stranger than fiction. Can't wait to see the witnesses that emerge to trump all the other fantasists who have debased Trump's great reputation....

http://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/2...-young-boys-high-ranking-british-politicians/


----------



## basilio

I've bin thinking... (very dangerous I know..)

I reckon the Trump nomination, ascendency and final collapse is just a very devious "Lying Hilary" concoction. When you think about it carefully it's so obvious.

First set up one of the most obnoxious, unprincipled person ever to become a  Republician candidate for the election. Make sure they have the biggest mouth and the loosest principles in the US.

Second quietly manage to kill off any competing candidates. What you have left is essentially a a dangerous megalomaniac with enough discoverable history to make his final demise so, so easy.

So here is Hilary at least looking better than the toad fish and when she pulls the trigger she can devastate Trump and all the Republicans who supported him through a hundred vicious attacks on mexicans, women, blacks, Muslims ect. ect.

_______________________________________________________________________________

I think I'll start writing the book now while it's fresh in my mind. Pass the spiff please.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I've bin thinking... (very dangerous I know..)
> 
> I reckon the Trump nomination, ascendency and final collapse is just a very devious "Lying Hilary" concoction. When you think about it carefully it's so obvious.
> 
> First set up one of the most obnoxious, unprincipled person ever to become a  Republician candidate for the election. Make sure they have the biggest mouth and the loosest principles in the US.
> 
> Second quietly manage to kill off any competing candidates. What you have left is essentially a a dangerous megalomaniac with enough discoverable history to make his final demise so, so easy.
> 
> So here is Hilary at least looking better than the toad fish and when she pulls the trigger she can devastate Trump and all the Republicans who supported him through a hundred vicious attacks on mexicans, women, blacks, Muslims ect. ect.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> I think I'll start writing the book now while it's fresh in my mind. Pass the spiff please.





The Republican politicians like Clinton more than they do Trump.

Trump is slightly unpredictable. The donors can't really be certain what he'd do. With Clinton, they both know how the game is played and what the game plans are.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Superb speech by Michelle Obama. I know eloquent people don't necessarily make great politicians, but I somehow feel that she is exactly what the US needs. Maybe on 2020.







Yes, the thing about the Obamas is they will do what they say they'll do. 

I haven't been following but what has Michelle been doing these 8 years? Beside appearing on talk and comedy shows; use her position to get early copies of Downton Abbey; start that veggie garden (organic, for sure). Oh yea, tell kids to eat healthy. 

I guess a First Lady would only ever see the need to go out and help her fellow citizens, fight for justice and end to poverty when the country is at war, when its economy just collapsed and its people living in desperate poverty... Oh wait.


So yea, let vote for the pretty face who can give good speeches. It's not like people can't get to hear nice words at the movies or something.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> That would mean over 30years of presidencies from only 3 families:1zhelp::1zhelp:
> 
> I can't count the ways I would say no way




Why not though Sifu. Western democracies have been ruled by one party with two factions for longer than that 3 decades.


----------



## Tisme

CAUTION ... contains Trump's own foul language and smut:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/1...t?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> CAUTION ... contains Trump's own foul language and smut:
> 
> http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/1...t?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter




Tisme, do you really believe that short video?

If you do. then you are more naive than I thought.

Why didn't they show Trump's face?....I will tell you why because that person would have to be an impersonator.....I would suggest it is just another Clinton gag.


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> Tisme, do you really believe that short video?
> 
> If you do. then you are more naive than I thought.
> 
> Why didn't they show Trump's face?....I will tell you why because that person would have to be an impersonator.....I would suggest it is just another Clinton gag.




Honestly Noco, it's hard to know if you are faking gullibility or embracing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihMvO-IrXlQ


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> You probably wouldn't have minded if Jeb Bush got in though ?




No, you are absolutely wrong there


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> Honestly Noco, it's hard to know if you are faking gullibility or embracing it.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihMvO-IrXlQ




Once again you do not answer the question.

I will ask you again.

Do you really believe that fictitious  video to be true without  seeing a face.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Why not though Sifu. Western democracies have been ruled by one party with two factions for longer than that 3 decades.



That's not really the same thing though is it, Grasshopper?

Aligning with a broad ideology is not the same as being part of a ruling Elitewho have no concept of how Ordinary People Live and make their lives.


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> Once again you do not answer the question.
> 
> I will ask you again.
> 
> Do you really believe that fictitious  video to be true without  seeing a face.




He has admitted to it Noco and his army of sympathisers have gone into damage mode. That's the trouble with conspiracy theorism ..... it blinds to the bleeding obvious.

But you just keep going along believing in or castigating people you don't know if that gives you peace.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> That's not really the same thing though is it, Grasshopper?
> 
> Aligning with a broad ideology is not the same as being part of a ruling Elitewho have no concept of how Ordinary People Live and make their lives.




They're not blood, but money is thicker than blood Sifu.

With siblings, you may have different opinions and different interests among them. With the elite, they all share the same exact interests - feathering their own nest and go for broke making all the money and having all the power in the world.

Trump's kids and Clinton's daughter are friends. Chelsea are also friends with the W. Bush's daughters. The Bushes are voting for Clinton, as are most other Republican establishment... And it's not because they're morally superior to Trump or haven't seen Trump's racist rant and sexual assaults before recently - they know who's likely to win and are making their bets three weeks out. To show loyalty to the new head of state.


Hill and Bill came from poor, working class families. So did Obama. So they know how ordinary people live and the struggle ordinary people goes through. Just they don't have the moral character or the ballz to care that much for it.


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> He has admitted to it Noco and his army of sympathisers have gone into damage mode. That's the trouble with conspiracy theorism ..... it blinds to the bleeding obvious.
> 
> But you just keep going along believing in or castigating people you don't know if that gives you peace.




Don't confuse his confession with that fake video you so honestly know is not true.


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> Don't confuse his confession with that fake video you so honestly know is not true.





You have lost me I'm afraid? Are you talking about the Family Guy cartoon parody, which is patently a send up?


----------



## explod

Ah well:



> TRUMP FIFTEEN POINTS AHEAD IN POLL
> Republican candidate winning in polls despite mainstream bias
> The Alex Jones Show - OCTOBER 18, 2016


----------



## luutzu

explod said:


> Ah well:





*Trump? Clinton? Many young Americans prefer giant meteor, poll finds*


Young Americans are so dissatisfied with their choices in this presidential election that nearly one in four told an opinion poll they would rather have a giant meteor destroy the Earth than see Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton in the White House.

The tongue-in-cheek question was intended to gauge young Americans' level of unhappiness about their choices in the Nov. 8 election, said Joshua Dyck, co-director of UMass Lowell’s Center for Public Opinion, which conducted the poll alongside Odyssey Millennials.

The choice alluded to the Twitter hashtag "#GiantMeteor2016," a reference to an imaginary presidential candidate used to express frustration about this year's election choices.

Some 53 percent of the 1,247 people aged 18 to 35 said they would prefer to see a meteor destroy the world than have Republican New York real estate developer Trump in the Oval Office, with some 34 percent preferring planetary annihilation to seeing the Democratic former Secretary of State win.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-meteor-idUSKCN12I20S




Winning hearts and minds ey.


----------



## noco

Here are the dirty tricks being played out by Clinton....All sounds familiar of what the left do here in Australia.....What ever it takes.


https://d1sb17b1leotpq.cloudfront.n...gn-and-dnc-incite-violence-trump-rallies.html


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Another debate.

Once again, Hillary appears incredibly weak and ineffectual, and Trump appears overbearing.


----------



## Knobby22

Gringotts Bank said:


> Another debate.
> 
> Once again, Hillary appears incredibly weak and ineffectual, and Trump appears overbearing.




Trump appears clueless. No policies, just bluster.

e.g. attack on Clinton foundation:



Donald Trump has pounced on this question, saying donations to the Clinton Foundation have come from countries that "kill women and treat women horribly".

"It is a criminal enterprise. You talk about women and women's rights. So these are people that push gays off buildings. These are people that kill women and treat women horribly, and yet you take their money. 


Under attack over the Clinton Foundation, Hillary Clinton said 90 per cent of the funds raised go to those in need.

"I'd be happy to compare what we do with the Trump Foundation, which took money from other people and bought a 6-foot portrait of Donald. I mean, who does that?" she said.


----------



## Knobby22

Clinton won again.

Frustrated Trump: ""Such a nasty woman"


----------



## McLovin

Trump is a total disgrace. Refusing to say that he would accept the outcome of the election. Clinton was light years ahead of Trump, although Trump seemed to handle himself a bit better.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Trump appears clueless. No policies, just bluster.
> 
> e.g. attack on Clinton foundation:
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump has pounced on this question, saying donations to the Clinton Foundation have come from countries that "kill women and treat women horribly".
> 
> "It is a criminal enterprise. You talk about women and women's rights. So these are people that push gays off buildings. These are people that kill women and treat women horribly, and yet you take their money.
> 
> 
> Under attack over the Clinton Foundation, Hillary Clinton said 90 per cent of the funds raised go to those in need.
> 
> "I'd be happy to compare what we do with the Trump Foundation, which took money from other people and bought a 6-foot portrait of Donald. I mean, who does that?" she said.




I don't agree with Trump, but what he said there is kinda true. And Clinton is lying about 90% of her foundation money going to charities.

Clinton gives a dam about women's rights, or care about the poor or about democracy as much as Trump - zero.

The Clinton Foundation do not hand out 90% of their donation to charities. Do the maths... they currently have something like $2B, if they gave 90% away, that'd mean they have been receiving $200B?

That and a journalist who looked into the foundation estimate they give out about 10 to 15% all these years.

And Trump's point about Haitian hating the Clinton and their foundation is also correct. I've seen interviews of Haitian activist and volunteers soon after the recent hurricane, they tell people to not send money to the Clinton Foundation... and recent Wikileak reveals how Bill's handy work on Haiti after the earthquake practically robbed the Haitian and gave them nothing from the donated money. It's all pay to play, even in charity work.


Trump is also full of it. And yes, he's not "qualified" to discuss any foreign or state matters... but are Clinton's experience and thinking any better? It's the same old bs that's inflaming the entire ME, destroy lives at home, and possibly take the world to direct confrontation with two nuclear power.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Not fit for top job.  I think even Trump would have more respect for a deceased enemy.  She seems deliriously happy about it.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> I don't agree with Trump, but what he said there is kinda true. And Clinton is lying about 90% of her foundation money going to charities.




No, the records show that 90% of the money is spent internally on many different schemes, less than 10% go to outside charities. That is what I find annoying, people believing stuff. That's where the figure came that only 7% of the money foes to charities, they didn't count all the internal stuff. All published, all traceable,all available.

How come Trump gets away with making giant paintings of himself and using the charity money for his court cases? 
Not published, not available. I just don't get it.

BTW If they had of made Marco Rubio the Presidential challenger, he would have won. 
But Trump is a fool, a liar, a multiple bankrupt, a molester and doesn't even know what he would do should he become President.  Just a joke.


----------



## Logique

Gringotts Bank said:


> Not fit for top job.  I think even Trump would have more respect for a deceased enemy.  She seems deliriously happy about it.



Hillary in a nutshell. America's enemies would rejoice to see her elected. 

I think US voters are smarter than she thinks.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> No, the records show that 90% of the money is spent internally on many different schemes, less than 10% go to outside charities. That is what I find annoying, people believing stuff. That's where the figure came that only 7% of the money foes to charities, they didn't count all the internal stuff. All published, all traceable,all available.
> 
> How come Trump gets away with making giant paintings of himself and using the charity money for his court cases?
> Not published, not available. I just don't get it.
> 
> BTW If they had of made Marco Rubio the Presidential challenger, he would have won.
> But Trump is a fool, a liar, a multiple bankrupt, a molester and doesn't even know what he would do should he become President.  Just a joke.




Rubio wouldn't have won because the Democrats and progressives wouldn't have liked him; and neither will the Republican voters - that's why Trump beat him.

I'll look for the interview I mentioned. 

Either way, the Clinton Foundation is just a legal way to house bribery. 

Anyone who know any people in Third World politics will recognise these kind of scams. We in the West are a bit more forgiving because we're not so used to seeing corruption.

No good and honest public servant ever get anywhere near this kind of "donation". That's been true since the beginning of organised society. 

Good and patriotic public servant will serve their country and then retire into modest means they started life with. Those honourable servants who have to take briberies because if they don't they'd be replaced by those who will... those will store it aside and give it away to the poor. Oh wait... except the CLintons because anyone who look at their policies know they ain't about the poor or the desperate.


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> Hillary in a nutshell. America's enemies would rejoice to see her elected.
> 
> I think US voters are smarter than she thinks.




They are... and that's why the Clinton's campaign message is "look at how much more horrible Trump is".

In the final debate, she doubled down on setting up a No-Fly Zone over Syria. She already knew how many civilians will be killed if the US were to take our Syria's air defences assets - radar, weapons systems etc. have to be knocked out.

Then there's the Pentagon estimate showing that the US will need something like 70,000 US personnel to carried out and enforce the no-fly zone. This estimate was before Russia came to the party.

But she's fine with it... 

I guess it's not as bad as Trump saying the US is weak and needs more nukes.


----------



## qldfrog

The more I think about it and the scarier I become of an Hillary victory;
Trump victory will be a mess, but overall i doubt it will be dangerous on the world stage; 
Probably a better choice for the world as I expect Trump to retreat and leave alone the next Irak/Libya/Syria;
On the other end, a victory of Hillary would see her in need of a serious boost/manipulation for a second mandate and I would not be the least surprise if she starts an initial proxy (potentially via some of her  friendly terrorists El Qaeda style) or cold war with Russia again;
And you know where/when it starts, not where/when it stops;
Once again, as she will win (how could the establishment allow anything else), I wish I was wrong


----------



## Logique

Hillary and Bill are, to all intents and purposes, above the law, that's scary. They would further entrench themselves.

Good read of Trumps's expected policies: 


> http://catallaxyfiles.com/2016/10/23/time-to-prepare-for-the-trump-anointment/
> Time to prepare for the Trump anointment?
> Posted on 10:21 am, October 23, 2016 by Alan Moran
> 
> With Trump leading in four of the most recent seven polls, and Clinton in only one (two being tied), how here’s my take on his policy summaries...


----------



## luutzu

Clintons in Haiti


----------



## Tisme

Remember all those delighted news anchors and talk heads on opinion shows in the US gaffawing and chortling about our knuckleheaded, foot in mouth PM ? 

Now it ain't so funny is it, now they have their own version running for president, plus a woman as the alternative.....life is sometimes very confronting.


----------



## DB008

​


----------



## Knobby22

As promised.

Some of the promises are good, some are awful. Hopefully there will be a Trump mark 2 in the next election who is a bit more capable and can come up with better policies. The existing Republican policies are a joke and at least he is rocking the boat. The Republicans do better out of the corruption than the Democrats so I would be amazed that they would let him do those items. Many if not most of the Democrats in Congress would also struggle to let these past.

His new aide is quite good and he is the one that formulated the anti corruption policies.


OCTOBER 22, 2016 
 DONALD J. TRUMP CONTRACT WITH THE AMERICAN VOTER

“Therefore, on the first day of my term of office, my administration will immediately pursue the following six measures to clean up the corruption and special interest collusion in Washington, DC:

 FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;
 SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);
 THIRD, a requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated;
 FOURTH, a 5 year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service;
 FIFTH, a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government;
 SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.

 On the same day, I will begin taking the following seven actions to protect American workers:

 FIRST, I will announce my intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205
 SECOND, I will announce our withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership
 THIRD, I will direct my Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator
 FOURTH, I will direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately
 FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars’ worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.
 SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward
 SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America’s water and environmental infrastructure

 Additionally, on the first day, I will take the following five actions to restore security and the constitutional rule of law:

 FIRST, cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama
 SECOND, begin the process of selecting a replacement for Justice Scalia from one of the 20 judges on my list, who will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States
 THIRD, cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities
 FOURTH, begin removing the more than 2 million criminal illegal immigrants from the country and cancel visas to foreign countries that won’t take them back
 FIFTH, suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered extreme vetting.

 Next, I will work with Congress to introduce the following broader legislative measures and fight for their passage within the first 100 days of my Administration:

 1. Middle Class Tax Relief And Simplification Act. An economic plan designed to grow the economy 4% per year and create at least 25 million new jobs through massive tax reduction and simplification, in combination with trade reform, regulatory relief, and lifting the restrictions on American energy. The largest tax reductions are for the middle class. A middle-class family with 2 children will get a 35% tax cut. The current number of brackets will be reduced from 7 to 3, and tax forms will likewise be greatly simplified. The business rate will be lowered from 35 to 15 percent, and the trillions of dollars of American corporate money overseas can now be brought back at a 10 percent rate.

 2. End The Offshoring Act Establishes tariffs to discourage companies from laying off their workers in order to relocate in other countries and ship their products back to the U.S. tax-free.

 3. American Energy & Infrastructure Act. Leverages public-private partnerships, and private investments through tax incentives, to spur $1 trillion in infrastructure investment over 10 years. It is revenue neutral.

 4. School Choice And Education Opportunity Act. Redirects education dollars to gives parents the right to send their kid to the public, private, charter, magnet, religious or home school of their choice. Ends common core, brings education supervision to local communities. It expands vocational and technical education, and make 2 and 4-year college more affordable.

 5. Repeal and Replace Obamacare Act. Fully repeals Obamacare and replaces it with Health Savings Accounts, the ability to purchase health insurance across state lines, and lets states manage Medicaid funds. Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.

 6. Affordable Childcare and Eldercare Act. Allows Americans to deduct childcare and elder care from their taxes, incentivizes employers to provide on-site childcare services, and creates tax-free Dependent Care Savings Accounts for both young and elderly dependents, with matching contributions for low-income families.

 7. End Illegal Immigration Act Fully-funds the construction of a wall on our southern border with the full understanding that the country Mexico will be reimbursing the United States for the full cost of such wall; establishes a 2-year mandatory minimum federal prison sentence for illegally re-entering the U.S. after a previous deportation, and a 5-year mandatory minimum for illegally re-entering for those with felony convictions, multiple misdemeanor convictions or two or more prior deportations; also reforms visa rules to enhance penalties for overstaying and to ensure open jobs are offered to American workers first.

 8. Restoring Community Safety Act. Reduces surging crime, drugs and violence by creating a Task Force On Violent Crime and increasing funding for programs that train and assist local police; increases resources for federal law enforcement agencies and federal prosecutors to dismantle criminal gangs and put violent offenders behind bars.

 9. Restoring National Security Act. Rebuilds our military by eliminating the defense sequester and expanding military investment; provides Veterans with the ability to receive public VA treatment or attend the private doctor of their choice; protects our vital infrastructure from cyber-attack; establishes new screening procedures for immigration to ensure those who are admitted to our country support our people and our values

 10. Clean up Corruption in Washington Act. Enacts new ethics reforms to Drain the Swamp and reduce the corrupting influence of special interests on our politics.

 On November 8th, Americans will be voting for this 100-day plan to restore prosperity to our economy, security to our communities, and honesty to our government.

 This is my pledge to you.

 And if we follow these steps, we will once more have a government of, by and for the people.”


----------



## Knobby22

The biggest reason I fear Trump, being an Australia, is the budget over run and a share market crash from the above policies.

Saul Eastlake has provided the figures:

Donald Trump's policies would significantly increase the US Budget deficit. 

The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB) last month estimated that the combination of tax cuts and spending increases proposed by Donald Trump would add $US5.3 trillion to US public debt over the next decade, lifting it from 77 per cent to 105 per cent of GDP.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...mic-disasters-eslake/7968458?section=analysis


----------



## basilio

What a bracing set of policies Donald Trump want's to implement. Tearing up Climate Change legislation jumps out pretty quickly as does going full bore on fossil fuel development and dispensing with any regulations that protect the environment. Clearly CC is just a giant hoax.

Exiting 2 million "criminals", stopping immigration form dodgy countries. 

Don't think I like this guys policies.


----------



## basilio

So what happens when Donald Trump loses the election ? This particular article offers a scary perspective. 



> *The hidden danger that comes after Donald Trump loses to Hillary Clinton*
> John Birmingham
> 
> John Birmingham
> Follow on Twitter
> 
> Donald Trump has done nothing wrong. Not in one way. The firming consensus that he was a rabid dog that somehow snuck into the conservative camp and killed a basket of puppies who would have made the cutest little floppy-eared presidents, ignores the uncomfortable truth that they were mostly all mad dogs. It also whistles nervously past the millions of voters for whom he was and remains the choice they really, truly, deeply wanted to make.
> 
> Trump was saying what they wanted to hear. Trump promised to make everything great again. And he did it without the snivelling weasel words of his rivals.
> 
> When they dog whistled at racism and bigotry, he just stood up and called brown people rapists. Where they hinted at punitive measures to contain 'the inner cities', Trump just blamed black people for everything. It's a wonder he hasn't broken that most sacred of modern American taboos and dropped a few N-bombs into his campaign speeches yet – but of course there's still a few weeks to go.
> 
> His crazed incoherence, his baffling victimhood, his anger and resentment, they're just 'what everyone's feeling'. Everyone who voted for him anyway.
> 
> ...*When cold-eyed political operators come to do the autopsy on Trump, they won't be solely looking for the flaws that killed him. They'll want to know how to repeat his success without falling victim to those flaws.
> 
> The answer is not likely to involve a promise of less bigotry and fascism, but more. Simply with better organisation and less pussy-grabbing next time*.




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/com...loses-to-hillary-clinton-20161024-gs9npd.html


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> So what happens when Donald Trump loses the election ? This particular article offers a scary perspective.




Definitely will be a Donald Trump mark II, however there will be a Bernie Sanders mark II also.
That is not a bad thing in my view. 

Next election will be very interesting.


----------



## SirRumpole

Saul Eslake on the economic consequences of a Trump Presidency. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ng-range-of-economic-disasters-eslake/7968458


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> The biggest reason I fear Trump, being an Australia, is the budget over run and a share market crash from the above policies.
> 
> Saul Eastlake has provided the figures:
> 
> Donald Trump's policies would significantly increase the US Budget deficit.
> 
> The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB) last month estimated that the combination of tax cuts and spending increases proposed by Donald Trump would add $US5.3 trillion to US public debt over the next decade, lifting it from 77 per cent to 105 per cent of GDP.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...mic-disasters-eslake/7968458?section=analysis



seriously, you are worried about Trump action on deficit figures? Look at Obama figures...
Of course, as per labour argument here, there was the GFC and many pockets to fill..


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> Definitely will be a Donald Trump mark II, however there will be a Bernie Sanders mark II also.
> That is not a bad thing in my view.
> 
> Next election will be very interesting.



Neither will be needed with a good patriotic war orchestrated by Hillary!!!
the usual Unity, nation, heroes etc etc


----------



## Knobby22

qldfrog said:


> seriously, you are worried about Trump action on deficit figures? Look at Obama figures...
> Of course, as per labour argument here, there was the GFC and many pockets to fill..




Yes, it will be far, far worse. Huge debts with the US in real trouble. You have to compare policies. Cutting taxes and spending more raises the debt quickly. I can't even see how you can compare. 

And its not just me, its economists like Saul Eastlake. David Murray expressed his fear. If Trump wins there will be a huge share market crash. If Trump starts catching up you will see people bail out early. I have sold a few things but not enough, though I don't expect Trump to win.


----------



## DB008

Here it is folks....

How the left manipulate and play games


https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/792059690289094656​


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> Here it is folks....
> 
> How the left manipulate and play games
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/792059690289094656​




No one in the mainstream can really be called a "Lefty".


----------



## DB008

luutzu said:


> No one in the mainstream can really be called a "Lefty".




There has been a tsunami of leaks coming from Wikileaks damaging the Clintons.

CNN (Clinton News Network) telling viewers not to read the leaks, CNN will decide what is newsworthy.

Joke

​


----------



## bellenuit

DB008 said:


> There has been a tsunami of leaks coming from Wikileaks damaging the Clintons.
> 
> CNN (Clinton News Network) telling viewers not to read the leaks, CNN will decide what is newsworthy.
> 
> Joke
> 
> ​





Its funny DB008, but on listening to that piece from CNN, no where does he say not to read the leaks. And the caption that the conspiratorialists put to the video is blatantly false. The caption says: "watch CNN tell viewers it is illegal to read the wikileaks Hillary emails". The CNN anchor says that it is illegal to possess them. That is quite different. 

In fact most companies now add a clause to each company email and example of which is the following:

_This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information.  No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by mistransmission.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that copying, forwarding or other dissemination or distribution of this message is prohibited_

There is nothing stopping your from reading the wikileaks emails if published on a publicly accessible news site (as he said, it is OK for the media to have them, though I am not sure on what basis - probably under some public interest provision).


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> There has been a tsunami of leaks coming from Wikileaks damaging the Clintons.
> 
> CNN (Clinton News Network) telling viewers not to read the leaks, CNN will decide what is newsworthy.
> 
> Joke
> 
> ​





I think that just show how the mainstream media isn't leftist. They're pro-Clinton for sure, but Clinton and the Democrats aren't Lefty.

The MSM are there to serve power, power do not reside in hippies do-gooders. Power reside in corporation and big businesses who buy the majority of the advertising.


----------



## Knobby22

Watch on Iview Planet America ABC where they go through the emails in detail.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Watch on Iview Planet America ABC where they go through the emails in detail.




Haven't watched MSM much lately; though have scanned through a few papers on the Clinton WikiLeaks and so far it just confirm the conspiracy theory - when you can no longer deny the facts, the best way to hide truth is to selectively discuss and frame it.

So there's plenty of news about Chelsea being seen as a brat and doesn't give some senior Clinton aide the respect he deserves (that was from a Murdoch press if I remember right).

On Reuters, same dance around very minor issues and what the Clinton spokes people say about it - that it's a Russian play; Clinton and the DNC are victim of cybercrime etc.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> No one in the mainstream can really be called a "Lefty".




Say what?

Have we shifted the goalposts so far, have we enterered the age of Oceanian doublespeak so comprehensively that left is now right?


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I think that just show how the mainstream media isn't leftist. They're pro-Clinton for sure, but Clinton and the Democrats aren't Lefty.
> 
> The MSM are there to serve power, power do not reside in hippies do-gooders. Power reside in corporation and big businesses who buy the majority of the advertising.




Never underestimate the need for people to saddle up to a notion that best describes their bias, no matter how distant and disconnected  the choices are.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Have we shifted the goalposts so far, have we enterered the age of Oceanian doublespeak so comprehensively that left is now right?




That already happened years ago when the Soviet Union collapsed. The hardline communists who wanted to keep the union intact and vehemently opposed the opening of the iron curtain suddenly became the extreme right, even though a few years before the advent of Gorbachev they were seen as the intransigent left. Remember when Boris Yeltsin played siege to the Kremlin, they labelled the hardliners who wanted to maintain the status quo the Right of the party.

What's funny is that it is those that steadfastly refused to change swung from being labelled the far left to the far right, even though they professed the exact same ideology at both times.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Say what?
> 
> Have we shifted the goalposts so far, have we enterered the age of Oceanian doublespeak so comprehensively that left is now right?




The Lefties now call themselves "progressives". All the "liberal" and left leaning politicians have now gone right to capture new market share, and so drag the political spectrum right with them.

Politicians can't go left because going left would mean too much caring and paying to the poor plebs, and we can't have that nonsense. So smart politicians like Bill Clinton and Obama speak nice leftist ideals about freedom and brother's keepers - to keep the left voters - but in reality they do what the Right wing powers tells them so they'd get the money and so it's a win-win.

The media might have been a bit liberal and left-ish way back then where, maybe, the ownership were more diverse and spread to a dozen or two owners. Now, most media/news companies are owned by about five or six big boys. So that's the mainstream media... and as a business, you got to serve those who pay you; and those who pays you aren't the subscribers - they get theirs for free mostly - but the advertisers: the big corporations, not the local trade who place a few lines in the classifieds.

So if you read the papers and watch the mainstream... it's all the same on issues that really matters to the establishment. Only difference would be on unimportant issues where, as a business, you segment and attract certain readers. So on the "lefty" papers, you get a couple of opinions on gay marriage is a good thing; on the "righty" papers you get to deny CC, don't like the gays or the Muslims. 

Just look at Hillary Clinton. She's more hawkish than Bush Jr. She think Obama is a bit weak for not going tough on Russia in Syria... and she's a darling to the "Left". 

Anyway, when a country is fighting in some 8 wars... any real papers and journalist worth their profession ought to start questioning their gov't.


----------



## explod

luutzu said:


> The Lefties now call themselves "progressives". All the "liberal" and left leaning politicians have now gone right to capture new market share, and so drag the political spectrum right with them.
> 
> Politicians can't go left because going left would mean too much caring and paying to the poor plebs, and we can't have that nonsense. So smart politicians like Bill Clinton and Obama speak nice leftist ideals about freedom and brother's keepers - to keep the left voters - but in reality they do what the Right wing powers tells them so they'd get the money and so it's a win-win.
> 
> The media might have been a bit liberal and left-ish way back then where, maybe, the ownership were more diverse and spread to a dozen or two owners. Now, most media/news companies are owned by about five or six big boys. So that's the mainstream media... and as a business, you got to serve those who pay you; and those who pays you aren't the subscribers - they get theirs for free mostly - but the advertisers: the big corporations, not the local trade who place a few lines in the classifieds.
> 
> So if you read the papers and watch the mainstream... it's all the same on issues that really matters to the establishment. Only difference would be on unimportant issues where, as a business, you segment and attract certain readers. So on the "lefty" papers, you get a couple of opinions on gay marriage is a good thing; on the "righty" papers you get to deny CC, don't like the gays or the Muslims.
> 
> Just look at Hillary Clinton. She's more hawkish than Bush Jr. She think Obama is a bit weak for not going tough on Russia in Syria... and she's a darling to the "Left".
> 
> Anyway, when a country is fighting in some 8 wars... any real papers and journalist worth their profession ought to start questioning their gov't.




One of the better posts in awhile.

Ukraine, US sponsored, for example is only about trying to stop Russia from feeding their oil and gas south.

For the mighty (about to crash) petro dollar.


----------



## CanOz

explod said:


> One of the better posts in awhile.
> 
> Ukraine, US sponsored, for example is only about trying to stop Russia from feeding their oil and gas south.
> 
> For the mighty (about to crash) petro dollar.




Petro Dollar??? 

I trust your're not referring to the US dollar?


----------



## luutzu

explod said:


> One of the better posts in awhile.
> 
> Ukraine, US sponsored, for example is only about trying to stop Russia from feeding their oil and gas south.
> 
> For the mighty (about to crash) petro dollar.




I didn't know that. Thought it was just NATO pulling down that Iron Curtain - this time right up around Russia's borders. 

Heard from a comedian's YouTube news channel quoting a piece by RFK's [?] son saying how Syria is also just about a couple of pipelines. 

Apparently Qatar and Saudi Arabia wanted a pipeline from Qatar, thru S.Arabia, to Jordan, Syria, Turkey and into Europe... Assad was the only one saying no because that would compete with Russia's own pipeline soooo... so Assad have to go because he's a tyrant. Saudi's public executions and stuff aren't so bad, I guess.

The Saudis and a couple other kingdoms told John Kerry that if the US were to overthrow Assad, they'd foot the bill. So why not right?

The situation is just insane but the media is focusing on Trump's petty crimes.  I mean, we all know how horrible Trump is on every level, what most voters might want to know is why Hillary is so insistent on taking out Syria's air defences, put American foot into Syria to enforce her proposed no-fly zone when both Russia and China are arming and training Assad's armed forces.


----------



## luutzu

CanOz said:


> Petro Dollar???
> 
> I trust your're not referring to the US dollar?




Maybe the dollar is low because they want it low. When you owe a lot of cash and you can print more to pay less... you'd print more. Helps with export too.

Part of the reasons Saddam was taken out was because he was thinking of joining some non-USD based oil exchange -  Yuan-based system maybe, can't remember. Same with Gadhafi's Libya and Venezuela. 

Our masters of war are going for broke here. That they either dominate the entire world, in every aspect, or there's nothing left. 

I mean, since WW2, most of the countries that were played with were weak and defenceless. So it's somewhat of a cakewalk carpet bombing them. China and Russia will fight back... and that is not going to end well for anyone.

It's like the British Empire colonising most of the world's less industrialised countries... until it takes on the likes of Germany and its allies; Or the Nazi taking on weaker European states until they allied themselves.

Worth thinking that for us who already own the world's riches, there is much more to lose than to gain from endless military campaigns. And that's not mentioning to moral and domestic economic costs of wars.


----------



## bellenuit

The Trump camp is elated and the Clinton's in absolute despair after the unearthing of this devastating Clinton email. Fox News stated that it proves all along what a criminal she is and her jailing should be the first act of the Trump administration, who undoubtedly will be elected now.


----------



## qldfrog

bellenuit said:


> The Trump camp is elated and the Clinton's in absolute despair after the unearthing of this devastating Clinton email. Fox News stated that it proves all along what a criminal she is and her jailing should be the first act of the Trump administration, who undoubtedly will be elected now.
> 
> View attachment 68654



I assume you are using irony Bellenuit, but how would you feel knowing that your government is using untraceable (or intended to) communication away from scrutiny of freedom of information, law,senat3e enquiries,  any grand jury, etc;
The email business looks minor until you try to anwer the question: why was she going into this trouble, and the answers are NOT nice...


----------



## bellenuit

qldfrog said:


> I assume you are using irony Bellenuit, but how would you feel knowing that your government is using untraceable (or intended to) communication away from scrutiny of freedom of information, law,senat3e enquiries,  any grand jury, etc;
> The email business looks minor until you try to anwer the question: why was she going into this trouble, and the answers are NOT nice...




Of all the emails released so far, what is the most damning? 

She acted stupidly by keeping the emails on a private server, but remember that Colin Powell suggested that it was something one should do. The big mistake is that even though there has been no ticking time bomb (the FBI said there was nothing criminal in what she did after their initial investigation), it does encourage innuendo as to why she did it. Innuendo like this: _why was she going into this trouble, and the answers are NOT nice..._ 

You may validly ask why was she going to this trouble, but so say "_*the answers are NOT nice...*_" is an overstatement. We (including you) do not know the answers, other than the excuses she gave, so the vacuum is filled by innuendo. But the fact that nothing of serious consequence has been found suggests that her actions were more stupid than nefarious.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> I assume you are using irony Bellenuit, but how would you feel knowing that your government is using untraceable (or intended to) communication away from scrutiny of freedom of information, law,senat3e enquiries,  any grand jury, etc;
> The email business looks minor until you try to anwer the question: why was she going into this trouble, and the answers are NOT nice...




exactly.

Who sends Classified emails over their own private server?


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> The Trump camp is elated and the Clinton's in absolute despair after the unearthing of this devastating Clinton email. Fox News stated that it proves all along what a criminal she is and her jailing should be the first act of the Trump administration, who undoubtedly will be elected now.
> 
> View attachment 68654




You probably missed the WikiLeaks showing how Hillary was going to go to Saudi Arabia to give a speech for some $12m just before deciding to run for president. 

Her staff advised against it, she was quite insistent. But then Bill Clinton and Chelsea should go instead - pass on that wisdom and pick up that cheque. All so that little girl in Yemen could have something done for her. 

Until, of course, Saudi Arabia bomb and starve the heck out of Yemen's population over the past two years, and counting.


Or you probably missed the leak about Hillary's private and public position - all because the stupid plebs just can't understand how, she says to Goldman Sachs over the 3 paid speeches at some $250k a pop... 

See, poor people are envious of bankers, who are people of the highest integrity, says she. That people are wrong to blame the bankers for crashing the economy - and crashing people's life savings with it... They are just envious of success, says she. 

Or that leak about her telling her rich friends that the environmentalists should really get a life. 

Or that "we came, we saw, he dies... ha ha ha"

Or the doubling down of no-fly zones over Syria.. which mean taking out of Syria's air defences - located in populated areas - having US boots on the ground, and taking on Russian jets. 


But that's all cool because she's a woman and she cares for that little girl whose relatives, and whose friends and neighbours are probably dead or starving to death from the Saudis that paid Clinton that $12m for her wisdom. 

If I have 0.1% of Clinton's cash, and forget about political influence, and if I care that much for that poor little girl... I'd sponsor her over at a flick of a finger. That would take the same amount of time to write that pathetic email wondering what's going on.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Of all the emails released so far, what is the most damning?
> 
> She acted stupidly by keeping the emails on a private server, but remember that Colin Powell suggested that it was something one should do. The big mistake is that even though there has been no ticking time bomb (the FBI said there was nothing criminal in what she did after their initial investigation), it does encourage innuendo as to why she did it. Innuendo like this: _why was she going into this trouble, and the answers are NOT nice..._
> 
> You may validly ask why was she going to this trouble, but so say "_*the answers are NOT nice...*_" is an overstatement. We (including you) do not know the answers, other than the excuses she gave, so the vacuum is filled by innuendo. But the fact that nothing of serious consequence has been found suggests that her actions were more stupid than nefarious.




She set the server up long before she knew about Powell's gmail. And Powell's gmail were used purely for his personal messages, never used for receiving or transferring classified state secrets... that and Powell soon stop even sending his personal email on anything other than gov't approved system... that and a gmail account, according to the FBI, would be more secured than her private server.

Name one other politician in the US who gain anywhere near the financial "donations" the Clinton has after leaving office? There's some $2b in donation to the foundation; and over the past ten years alone, Bill and Hill receives some $140m in paid speeches. Then there are the memoirs for $10m a pop. 

Yea man, just innuendos. All the politicians in China, VN, Russia and other countries all get the same kind of cash... and they're never at all do any favours in return.


----------



## DB008

luutzu said:


> I think that just show how the mainstream media isn't leftist. They're pro-Clinton for sure, but Clinton and the Democrats aren't Lefty.
> 
> The MSM are there to serve power, power do not reside in hippies do-gooders. Power reside in corporation and big businesses who buy the majority of the advertising.




LOL

STUDY: Big Three Networks Attack Comey Over Clinton by 3 to 1

http://archive.is/jrugc


This election in the USA has actually been a good thing. Now we know where the biased U.S. media stand

(Sorry if link or editing doesn't work as l previously do, posting from a mobile)


----------



## Knobby22

Trump has a chance now. Been selling some shares just in case.


----------



## drsmith

Sportsbet odds (Hillary/Donald)

Winning candidate: $1.30/$3.75 + 4 others at plenty.
Popular vote percentage: $1.28/$3.50.

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...016/US-Presidential-Election-2016-476310.html


----------



## basilio

If this election focused on the qualities and failures of Hilary Clinton and some semblance of credible policy by the Republicians with a candidate who wasn't one of the nastiest pieces of work yet seen ... the GOP would be in with a big show.

Have a look at just how insanely nasty Trump has been on his run to "Make America Great" and the Republicians who can't stomach his behaviour.



> * Republicans fear Trump's parade of insults might help cost him the election*
> 
> 2016 could be a winnable election for the GOP, especially given Clinton’s continued email woes – yet all year Trump has lurched from one self-inflicted crisis to another
> 
> David Smith in Washington
> 
> Tuesday 1 November 2016 21.00 AEDT
> Last modified on Tuesday 1 November 2016 21.33 AEDT
> 
> What do Rosie O’Donnell, Serge Kovaleski, Megyn Kelly, John McCain, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Gonzalo Curiel, Khizr Khan and Alicia Machado have in common?
> 
> All have been on the receiving end of Donald Trump’s insults as the businessman spent more than a year pursuing futile feuds that may go a long way toward costing him the White House.
> 
> A chorus of hands slapping against Republican foreheads was almost audible each time the nominee threw off any pretence of self-discipline and lashed out, distracting onlookers from his efforts to present himself as moderate or exploit Hillary Clinton’s weaknesses. This week they are doubtless praying that he doesn’t squander the golden opportunity presented by the FBI’s investigation into a new batch of emails that may be related to Clinton’s private server.
> 
> “Trump is on the verge of blowing it,” Ari Fleischer, former White House press secretary, tweeted on 30 September. “Free advice: Focus on Hillary. No one else. Hillary is your opponent. No one else is.”
> 
> For William Cohen, a former defence secretary and Republican senator for Maine, the breaking point came in July last year. Soon after launching his presidential campaign, Trump said of the Arizona senator and former Vietnam prisoner of war John McCain: “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”
> 
> It later emerged that Trump had been granted four education draft deferments and one medical. The latter was due to bone spurs in his heels.
> 
> Cohen, who was McCain’s best man, recalled: “I was outraged about it. To this day John McCain can’t lift his arm to shoulder level. To say that about what he went through being tortured, his sense of patriotism, from a man who avoided the draft with a bone spur? No, I don’t think so. It turned me immediately.”




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...mp-insults-us-election-result-republicans-gop


----------



## basilio

And talking of Reds under the bed what do we make of these reports ? Whose pulling the strings in the USA election ?


> *Trump hotline to Moscow bank revealed as FBI probes Kremlin's five-year plan*: reports
> Paul McGeough
> 
> Paul McGeough
> Follow on Twitter
> 
> 
> Washington: The word "explosive" has been rendered meaningless in this US presidential election – so I'll just state this baldly. The FBI is investigating a deliberate, years-long Russian effort by which Moscow co-opted Donald Trump, and the Republican Party candidate had, until very recently, a super-secret internet server, which carried heavy, two-way traffic between his Manhattan tower and a Russian bank with close ties to the Kremlin.
> 
> In a campaign without filters, in which the improbable has proved likely, it has become difficult to rule out anything as impossible.
> 
> But three new, and separate, investigative reports by The New York Times, Mother Jones and Slate magazines are stunning "other shoe dropping" developments as Trump recovers from his "sexual predator" revelations, and just as Democrat Hillary Clinton is swamped by the fallout from the "Comey letter".
> 
> Here's what Mother Jones is reporting:
> 
> "A former senior Western intelligence operative, a specialist in Russian counterintelligence deemed credible in Washington, has provided the FBI with evidence that Trump 'and his inner circle have accepted a regular flow of intelligence from the Kremlin, including on Clinton, since Russian intelligence had compromised Trump during his visits to Moscow – so that he could be blackmailed'.
> 
> "The intelligence report, which the operative had provided to the FBI, reads: 'Russian regime has been cultivating, supporting and assisting TRUMP for at least 5 years. Aim, endorsed by PUTIN, has been to encourage splits and divisions in western alliance'.
> 
> "The Clinton data was a dossier based on bugged conversations by Clinton during various visits to Moscow and on intercepted phone calls, it says.
> 
> "Initially retained by a Republican client, but later by a Democrat, to research Trump, the operative said his investigations confirmed the existence of an 'established exchange of information between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin of mutual benefit'.
> 
> "After multiple exchanges and information sharing about Trump and his inner circle with the FBI since August 2016, the operative concluded: 'It's quite clear there was or is a pretty substantial [FBI] inquiry going on'.



http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-e...lins-fiveyear-trump-plan-20161101-gsfcay.html

The rest of the story is way out there. Looks like it came from The Manchurian Candidate.


----------



## basilio

And of course the really, *really *juicy bit is at the end of the story.

How does one traditionally compromise foreign leaders in Moscow/Peking/wherever to get them to see things your way ? 

Yep.. the honey trap.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> And talking of Reds under the bed what do we make of these reports ? Whose pulling the strings in the USA election ?
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-e...lins-fiveyear-trump-plan-20161101-gsfcay.html
> 
> The rest of the story is way out there. Looks like it came from The Manchurian Candidate.



absolutlely hillarious seiing the so called left attacking Trump as a soviet agent, remember Mac Carty guys? 
or the Pershing rockets in Europe?
Basically what being really liberal means freedom (real freedom from state as well), free thinking, etc etc
Maybe the russians love their children too and would like to avoid Clinton starting her war mongering there..
This has been a revelation, I thought gilliard was just a CFMEU manipulation not a representation of the electorate but I start having my doubts.When did aussie schools stopped mandating reading of 1984, Soljenitsyn (sp?), animal farm and lthe teaching of history  for the last two centuries


----------



## Knobby22

There is clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election but there is also obvious domestic influences. I don't really think it matters that Russia is helping  Trump as if he gets in the CIA will ensure that any influence will be negated. It's not hilarious however.


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> There is clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election but there is also obvious domestic influences. I don't really think it matters that Russia is helping  Trump as if he gets in the CIA will ensure that any influence will be negated. It's not hilarious however.



The hilarity (no pun intended) comes from the mental twisting the so called left is doing to offer valid arguments in supporting Hillary;a politician who is worse than the neo con in foreign affairs, who is heavily in bed with wall street, news propaganda machine and the military lobby and who sabotaged Bernie: 
Not may, but has and will;
I  believe Bernie had some real left thinking and *honesty*, even if I am in disagreement with some of his proposed policies.
And should Trump win, I will breath easier knowing no war with Russia is coming.Being a stock forum, I believ members should ensure they are actually ready for that event: a Trump victory ;
a bet that way is more rewarding than a win from hillary in risk return ratio.
And if Hillary win, invest in US arm firms
My 2c


----------



## Knobby22

In hindsight, investing in arms firms and Halliburton when Bush II and his crony Vice president was in would have made a fortune.

I have gone to cash for 1/3 of my portfolio due to the Trump comeback. Saw other investors around the world selling today. Good for shorters. Still think Clinton should win which would create a relief rally. If Trump wins, Brexit will look like a picnic. Trump is not a true Republican. I agree with his new right hand man about what to do about corruption but there is little policy in other areas. I disagree strongly with the tax cuts to the rich and rise in defence spending. Goes against all his rhetoric.

Will he be a good President? He has no depth however I am hoping his team could pull something together. would be nice to see policy in advance however as they may be got at.


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> In hindsight, investing in arms firms and Halliburton when Bush II and his crony Vice president was in would have made a fortune.
> 
> I have gone to cash for 1/3 of my portfolio due to the Trump comeback. Saw other investors around the world selling today. Good for shorters. Still think Clinton should win which would create a relief rally. If Trump wins, Brexit will look like a picnic. Trump is not a true Republican. I agree with his new right hand man about what to do about corruption but there is little policy in other areas. I disagree strongly with the tax cuts to the rich and rise in defence spending. Goes against all his rhetoric.
> 
> Will he be a good President? He has no depth however I am hoping his team could pull something together. would be nice to see policy in advance however as they may be got at.



Fair, but not sure we will have such a relief rally with any strength in case of hillary win. a few % before being back to status quo is my uninformed opinion


----------



## McLovin

Knobby22 said:


> I have gone to cash for 1/3 of my portfolio due to the Trump comeback.




Despite the media trying to portray the race as close, Clinton is still well ahead. She has given up her p*ssy grab votes that came in October, but the fact remains Trump needs to win every swing state _and_ also win a couple of Clinton safe states like Colorado or Pennsylvania.

A Trump victory would in all likelihood require the Electoral College and the popular vote to be split ie Trump wins the EC but loses the popular vote.

At this point if I was a Democrat, I'd be concerned at how fast Clinton support has fallen in the last week, but if I was a Republican I'd still be extremely worried that I'd be losing the election.


----------



## Tisme

"Where is/can Donald Trump take US "

I'd say we know the answer to that now = down the garden path


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> And talking of Reds under the bed what do we make of these reports ? Whose pulling the strings in the USA election ?
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-e...lins-fiveyear-trump-plan-20161101-gsfcay.html
> 
> The rest of the story is way out there. Looks like it came from The Manchurian Candidate.




Trump is accused of being the Frank Sinatra's version of The Manchurian Candidate.

Clinton is the Denzel Washington of The Manchurian (Corp.) Candidate. 


I heard that WikiLeaks also reveal how senior Clinton aides discussed the same Red-bating strategy against Trump. I don't think you'd need to involve the Red menace to go against Trump, but seems like it might work... and also setting up potential confrontation with Putin and his KGB menace.

I mean, you can't accuse a country of hacking and setting up puppets at the highest level, then do nothing about it. Right?


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> LOL
> 
> STUDY: Big Three Networks Attack Comey Over Clinton by 3 to 1
> 
> http://archive.is/jrugc
> 
> 
> This election in the USA has actually been a good thing. Now we know where the biased U.S. media stand
> 
> (Sorry if link or editing doesn't work as l previously do, posting from a mobile)




But you're assuming that Clinton and her supporters are Leftist. They're not. They're Centre-Right. Same with Obama and Clinton the First.


Trump isn't that much different to Clinton anyway. Only difference is he said what Clinton is already doing or have already done. That and on a personal level, Clinton doesn't sexually abuse women.

So Trump talks about ending the TPP... as if that's going to happen. 

Or Trump not believing in CC... Clinton believes in CC but doesn't give two fs about it. She brags about promoting fracking all over the world during her term as SOS; told bankers that greenies should go get a job, and maybe grow up or something. And have we heard anything from her about the protests against the Dakota access pipeline where the Natives and greenies are being arrested enmasse? 

The power at the top are all the same. That's true in every state under every form of gov't. 

In a democracy, the people have some room to protest and make their voices heard. But it seem that in the US, that's slowly being taken away and "ring leaders" are being charge with "rioting" and resisting arrest, or criminal trespassing... so those who want to lead the protests better have good money set aside for legal defences.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> In hindsight, investing in arms firms and Halliburton when Bush II and his crony Vice president was in would have made a fortune.
> 
> I have gone to cash for 1/3 of my portfolio due to the Trump comeback. Saw other investors around the world selling today. Good for shorters. Still think Clinton should win which would create a relief rally. If Trump wins, Brexit will look like a picnic. Trump is not a true Republican. I agree with his new right hand man about what to do about corruption but there is little policy in other areas. I disagree strongly with the tax cuts to the rich and rise in defence spending. Goes against all his rhetoric.
> 
> Will he be a good President? He has no depth however I am hoping his team could pull something together. would be nice to see policy in advance however as they may be got at.




It's still not too late. 

Lockheed Martin's [or one of those arms pushers] said last year that SE Asia is a "new growth opportunity" area. 

But are there no other businesses to get behind?


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> The hilarity (no pun intended) comes from the mental twisting the so called left is doing to offer valid arguments in supporting Hillary;a politician who is worse than the neo con in foreign affairs, who is heavily in bed with wall street, news propaganda machine and the military lobby and who sabotaged Bernie:
> Not may, but has and will;
> I  believe Bernie had some real left thinking and *honesty*, even if I am in disagreement with some of his proposed policies.
> And should Trump win, I will breath easier knowing no war with Russia is coming.Being a stock forum, I believ members should ensure they are actually ready for that event: a Trump victory ;
> a bet that way is more rewarding than a win from hillary in risk return ratio.
> And if Hillary win, invest in US arm firms
> My 2c




Sanders was screwed over by the head of the DNC. And he still managed to win some 47% of the votes. 

The head of the DNC was forced to resigned once WikiLeak proved she rigged it for Hillary. Guess who replace Schultz as the new head of the DNC? A former CNN consultant to give a few questions to Hillary for the second "townhall" presidential debate.

I guess the message is, if you want to rise to the top, you know what to do.


----------



## Tisme

Knobby22 said:


> Will he be a good President? He has no depth however I am hoping his team could pull something together. would be nice to see policy in advance however as they may be got at.




He reigns as congenitally uncouth and it would require a masterclass to rein him in.  A dangerous experiment by the republican party and supporters.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Never underestimate the need for people to saddle up to a notion that best describes their bias, no matter how distant and disconnected  the choices are.




Why is it that each time I read your replies, I have to examine if or how it probably apply to myself? 

Done it, and no, no bias from me 


btw, I just found out that the Irish actually had their own language - Gaelic? I thought you guys speak English all these time.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> He reigns as congenitally uncouth and it would require a masterclass to rein him in.  A dangerous experiment by the republican party and supporters.




They need Trump to be a Ronald Reagan and read what's written for him; do as he's told.

The Donald is too much of himself and might get out of line. Unlike Hillary who's been in the game long enough and gain a lot of wisdom on the workings of the world.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> They need Trump to be a Ronald Reagan and read what's written for him; do as he's told.
> 
> The Donald is too much of himself and might get out of line. Unlike Hillary who's been in the game long enough and gain a lot of wisdom on the workings of the world.




Nancy was a one of a kind president and drew from Maggie Thatcher's directions.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> It's still not too late.
> 
> Lockheed Martin's [or one of those arms pushers] said last year that SE Asia is a "new growth opportunity" area.
> 
> But are there no other businesses to get behind?




Clinton promises to spend on major infrastructure. maybe an opportunity for Transurban, though frankly I am always terrified when Aussie companies do stuff in the US. they are always getting sued or conned.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Sportsbet odds (Hillary/Donald)
> 
> Winning candidate: $1.30/$3.75 + 4 others at plenty.
> Popular vote percentage: $1.28/$3.50.
> 
> http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...016/US-Presidential-Election-2016-476310.html



Winning candidate: $1.36/$3.20 + 3 others at plenty.
Popular vote percentage: $1.36/$3.20.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Nancy was a one of a kind president and drew from Maggie Thatcher's directions.




Nancy? Was she the puppet master?

The more I learn about politics, the more depressing it gets. It's like one of those historical drama where the Emperor doesn't hold any real power; forced to do ceremonial fluffs and cries himself to sleep at night.

Like China's Romance of the Three Kingdoms where the last few Han Emperors were puppets while a Prime Minister pull all the strings.

Now instead of a military or a dictatorial coup, it's what John Ralston Saul call the "corporate coup d'Ã©tat".

Maybe too much conspiracy theory.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Clinton promises to spend on major infrastructure. maybe an opportunity for Transurban, though frankly I am always terrified when Aussie companies do stuff in the US. they are always getting sued or conned.




US engineering society rated the country's infrastructure a D, I think. So yea, it's about time they start on rebuilding a whole bunch of roads, rail and bridges. And it looks like privatization is also their ways too. So maybe Transurban won't be so screwed this time 

Biotech and Pharmacy would have a bright future though. CSL is looking interesting.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> US engineering society rated the country's infrastructure a D, I think. So yea, it's about time they start on rebuilding a whole bunch of roads, rail and bridges. And it looks like privatization is also their ways too. So maybe Transurban won't be so screwed this time
> 
> Biotech and Pharmacy would have a bright future though. CSL is looking interesting.




The US was built on the European wealthy moving money over during WW1, arms supply during both WW1 and WW2 and then the Lend Lease repayments rip off after WW2. The golden era was the fifties when they were swamped with cash and brain drains into it, but it's been going down ever since while the traditional Euro powerhouses have gradually regained traction.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The US was built on the European wealthy moving money over during WW1, arms supply during both WW1 and WW2 and then the Lend Lease repayments rip off after WW2. The golden era was the fifties when they were swamped with cash and brain drains into it, but it's been going down ever since while the traditional Euro powerhouses have gradually regained traction.




Guess where the Europeans get the resources to repay for Lend Lease? Africa and the colonies 

According to Chomsky, that's what US planners literally did a couple years before WW2 ended - how to reshape the world and what are the duties and function of each region.

So Saudi Arabia and all its oil needs to be protected by the US. Britain can have a few percent in other Kingdoms - as commissions for the handover. Can't be too greedy.

Then Africa and its colonies are to be returned to their previous masters in Europe where they can "exploit" its natural and human resources to rebuild and repay Uncle Sam for his generosity.

French Indo-China put up a fight when the French returns and we can't have that kind of contagion - so all hell were broke loose on that little corner of the world. Almost completely destroying it as examples to other would-be terrorists and radicals. Seriously, Kissinger actually said this.

And it work for a couple of decades. You do not want VN to happen to you man. Then the collapse of the other competitor and huh rah for freedom and democracy.

But all is not well in the Kingdom over the past couple of decades.

First terrorists are rising up all over the ME. The banks and corporations are destroying jobs and wrecking domestic economies at home. The gov't have to bail them out but aren't collecting enough taxes in return for the trouble.

And there are only so many wars and so many prisons you can put those excess and redundant human capacity... so those that aren't locked up or forced into desperate economic situation that they'd join the armed forces for a chance to advance themselves and pay the bills... those that aren't locked up are protesting ("rioting") and we got a bit of a problem.

On top, there's the rise of European independence, again... then the BRIC and alternatives to the IMF, World Bank.

What to do? Invest in smarter nuclear weapons, further beggaring your population, let your multinationals roam free and starting a couple more wars.

And all these before a Trump has any chance to bankrupt it like he bankrupted his casinos.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Biotech and Pharmacy would have a bright future though. CSL is looking interesting.




I am interested. I desire a price closer to $90 than $100 though.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Winning candidate: $1.36/$3.20 + 3 others at plenty.
> Popular vote percentage: $1.36/$3.20.



Winning candidate: $1.40/$3.00 + 3 others at plenty.


----------



## basilio

*Have you been Trumped yet ?*

Have a look and see how Donald Trump treats people who get in his way. ? Not to mention threatening to sue the pants off anyone who repeats what has been said in  the documentary.



> * You’ve Been Trumped Too: it’s the film Donald Trump doesn’t want you to see*
> Anthony Baxter
> When I found out about Trump’s treatment of a Scottish family in his attempt to force them off their land I had to make a film about it. Now he wants to sue
> 
> Pensacola, Florida, 2 November. ‘Welcome to the world we could wake up to on 9 November if Donald Trump becomes the most powerful man on the planet.’ Photograph: Carlo Allegri/Reuters
> 
> Friday 4 November 2016 04.28 AEDT
> Last modified on Friday 4 November 2016 09.29 AEDT
> 
> Donald Trump is threatening to sue movie theatres, reporters or anyone who repeats the allegations made in my new film You’ve Been Trumped Too? No surprise there. He threatened the BBC with the same before the broadcast of my first film, back in 2012. But what makes Trump’s latest threat all the more terrifying is that he could soon hold the keys to the White House. Can you imagine a world where the president of the United States was throwing around lawsuits just because he objected to what was printed or broadcast about him?




https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/03/youve-been-trumped-too-film-donald-trump


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *Have you been Trumped yet ?*
> 
> Have a look and see how Donald Trump treats people who get in his way. ? Not to mention threatening to sue the pants off anyone who repeats what has been said in  the documentary.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/03/youve-been-trumped-too-film-donald-trump




That's bad. But not as bad as signing off "kill list" once a week to drone anyone suspected of maybe one day going to harm US interest though.

Recent tape caught Hillary regretting letting the Palestinian votes. She should've been stronger and not allow them to vote. But if they were to vote, "we" ought to make sure "we" control the outcome. 

And just in case we think that only applies to foreign basket cases, she brought it home to the US and rigged the primaries against Sanders. 

Recent WikiLeak showed that as early as Feb 2015, the DNC's chairwoman and Clinton's aide were scheming on how the DNC ought to meet other Democratic candidates to make it appear like Clinton's nomination isn't in the bag already. 

Again, I'm not for Trump. But Clinton is no better really. 

With Trump, because he's so incompetent he can't hide the ugliness... that is good for Democracy. It will get people rile up and start demanding an end to current trajectory.

With Clinton, like with Obama... deportation, global terrorism campaign, endless wars, the I believe in CC but ain't going to anything about it, the slow privatisation of pensions and gutting of welfare. etc. etc. All these are signed off by Bill Clinton and Obama, and people they are so smooth, the population just can't believe it's happening, until it has been done and dusted.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> *Have you been Trumped yet ?*
> 
> Have a look and see how Donald Trump treats people who get in his way. ? Not to mention threatening to sue the pants off anyone who repeats what has been said in  the documentary.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/03/youve-been-trumped-too-film-donald-trump




My question is what is so unusual about that? In my lowly world of equine hoof care, litigation abounds, sometimes the vexatiousness being truly comical.


----------



## explod

Regardless of who gets in they will not last their first term.

Trump/Kennedy anyone,

Clinton prosecution


----------



## Knobby22

explod said:


> Regardless of who gets in they will not last their first term.
> 
> Trump/Kennedy anyone,
> 
> Clinton prosecution




I disagree. they will make it through. no second term though. Trumps the one with the underage girl court case that we are not allowed to talk about. Should be interesting. Clinton won't be prosecuted (any more than the high level of court cases (about 13 a year) the Republicans sheet against her every year...and they have lost every one. )but I can't see her getting a second term (a) too old guard, (2) too old, (3) no one likes her much.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Winning candidate: $1.40/$3.00 + 3 others at plenty.



Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.34/$3.40 + 3 others at plenty.
Popular vote percentage: $1.25/$3.70.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> My question is what is so unusual about that? In my lowly world of equine hoof care, litigation abounds, sometimes the vexatiousness being truly comical.




Are those people running for President of the USA ? Didn't think so.

I struggle to see any redeeming features in Trump. A nasty, lying, bully with only abuse and fear as his main political weapons. 

And yet he is within sight of becoming President and an absolute certainty to obstruct the entire American political system if he doesn't get in.


----------



## basilio

The rape charge against Donald Trump has been withdrawn.  Reading the affidavits and the threats made at the time and subsequently by Donald Trump and David Epstein the withdrawel comes as no surprise.

Check it out.   Plus the other assorted sexual assault files .

https://www.scribd.com/doc/31634105...pstein-Rape-Lawsuit-and-Affidavits#fullscreen


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Are those people running for President of the USA ? Didn't think so.
> 
> I struggle to see any redeeming features in Trump. A nasty, lying, bully with only abuse and fear as his main political weapons.
> 
> And yet he is within sight of becoming President and an absolute certainty to obstruct the entire American political system if he doesn't get in.




On that, and similar bases, I'm wondering why you don't hate Hills as much, or more?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> On that, and similar bases, I'm wondering why you don't hate Hills as much, or more?




Because even though I think Hilary would not be my first choice as Prez, *Trump is obviously, clearly, indisputably, a totally disastrous choice. *

But these are just the facts of the situation.  They clearly have little weight in a post truth society do they Wayne ?


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Because even though I think Hilary would not be my first choice as Prez, *Trump is obviously, clearly, indisputably, a totally disastrous choice. *
> 
> But these are just the facts of the situation.  They clearly have little weight in a post truth society do they Wayne ?




I suggest your interpretation of facts is severely skewed by your far left ideology.

I cant see Hills being any less disasterous.


----------



## Muschu

wayneL said:


> I suggest your interpretation of facts is severely skewed by your far left ideology.
> 
> I cant see Hills being any less disasterous.




Hmmm.. Well I have no fixed political ideology [like you I gather] but Trump strikes me as a bigot, egotist and as a person who is blatantly dangerous to the globe.

"Hills" is not OK - but less "disastrous".


----------



## wayneL

Muschu said:


> Hmmm.. Well I have no fixed political ideology [like you I gather] but Trump strikes me as a bigot, egotist and as a person who is blatantly dangerous to the globe.
> 
> "Hills" is not OK - but less "disastrous".



What do you think is my fixed political ideology?

Hint 1. I have stated it often enough

Hint 2. I am not a conservative

Hmmmm??


----------



## noco

Muschu said:


> Hmmm.. Well I have no fixed political ideology [like you I gather] but Trump strikes me as a bigot, egotist and as a person who is blatantly dangerous to the globe.
> 
> "Hills" is not OK - but less "disastrous".




I don't know whether you can place much trust in the US press which is similar to our own ABC.....Very far left and influenced by the Clinton camp.


----------



## Muschu

wayneL said:


> What do you think is my fixed political ideology?
> 
> Hint 1. I have stated it often enough
> 
> Hint 2. I am not a conservative
> 
> Hmmmm??




Were you stating Wayne to be far left?

Why hint? Just advise.  Don't like word games.  And not going to scroll back through your posts.


----------



## Muschu

noco said:


> I don't know whether you can place much trust in the US press which is similar to our own ABC.....Very far left and influenced by the Clinton camp.




Sorry, wasn't referring to press.  Trump's own mouth has been his downfall....... 

Please don't infer that I am saying Hillary is a saint..... Just the lesser of two evils.


----------



## drsmith

Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.20/$5.00 + 3 others at plenty.
Popular vote percentage: $1.17/$4.65.


----------



## Knobby22

drsmith said:


> Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.20/$5.00 + 3 others at plenty.
> Popular vote percentage: $1.17/$4.65.




Must be a lot of people betting on Hillary. Odds have shortened markedly.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.20/$5.00 + 3 others at plenty.
> Popular vote percentage: $1.17/$4.65.



Looks too high a mountain for The Donald at $5.00.

Anyway, two more sleeps and the long campaign ordeal will be over.


----------



## drsmith

Knobby22 said:


> Must be a lot of people betting on Hillary. Odds have shortened markedly.



Whilst not being a close follower of US politics, I have a small wager on this in the form of a hot caffeinated beverage.

I'm assuming US voters overall aren't quiet as out there as one of the candidates.


----------



## So_Cynical

drsmith said:


> Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.20/$5.00 + 3 others at plenty.
> Popular vote percentage: $1.17/$4.65.




That would help explain the market rally and fall in gold stocks today.


----------



## wayneL

Muschu said:


> Were you stating Wayne to be far left?
> 
> Why hint? Just advise.  Don't like word games.  And not going to scroll back through your posts.




Fair enough. 

Best not to make assumptions then, what?


----------



## Muschu

wayneL said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Best not to make assumptions then, what?




Sorry, I think it was Basilo of whom you said 

_"I suggest your interpretation of facts is severely skewed by your far left ideology"._

I should suggest rather than assume... 

Tired of keyboard biting.


----------



## wayneL

Muschu said:


> Sorry, I think it was Basilo of whom you said
> 
> _"I suggest your interpretation of facts is severely skewed by your far left ideology"._
> 
> I should suggest rather than assume...
> 
> Tired of keyboard biting.



Well there's a lot of territory to the right of the far left, without being either rigid, or far right, including the center.


----------



## basilio

*Did you Know ?*

That Donald Trumps lawyers have to meet him in pairs to deal with his inveterate lying ? Another fascinating fact about the man who would be President.

You can find the source of this statement in the article I am citing. 



> *  How does Donald Trump lie? A fact checker's final guide*
> 
> As the presidential campaign has gathered speed, the Guardian has gathered together the lies the Republican candidate has told. What have we learned?
> 
> Alan Yuhas
> @alanyuhas
> 
> Monday 7 November 2016 22.00 AEDT
> 
> 
> Donald Trump lies like he tweets: erratically, at all hours, sometimes in malice and sometimes in self-contradiction, and sometimes without any apparent purpose at all. The Guardian has catalogued more than 100 falsehoods made by the Republican nominee over the last 150 days, and sorted them according to theme.
> 
> Hillary Clinton has been caught in more than a dozen falsehoods of her own, for instance about her email practices and her past support for the Trans-Pacific Partnership. But Clinton often makes her falsehoods in dense legalese, making them hard to pin a motive on: many could as easily be errors as lies, careless exaggeration or deliberately misleading claims.
> 
> *Trump, on the other hand, will say “wrong” when he hears his own quotes. His own lawyers met him in pairs to counteract his lying, court documents show. He has invented false statistics, fictional videos and sex tapes and a nonexistent man named “John Miller” to talk about his sex life. Months of fact-checking, however, reveal methods and, whether he means to or not, Trump’s guide to success through lying.*




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/07/how-does-donald-trump-lie-fact-checker


----------



## Muschu

wayneL said:


> Well there's a lot of territory to the right of the far left, without being either rigid, or far right, including the center.




I  agree


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *Did you Know ?*
> 
> That Donald Trumps lawyers have to meet him in pairs to deal with his inveterate lying ? Another fascinating fact about the man who would be President.
> 
> You can find the source of this statement in the article I am citing.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/07/how-does-donald-trump-lie-fact-checker




I saw a few examples of Trump lying, and man he's quite an incredible liar. 

But it seem that he's so unlikeable and full of himself that we know he's lying; or at least not take anything he said seriously - even if it's true.

Clinton I've also seen her lying - about her server being more secured and advanced than that of the State Dept.; how she not only change her stances and shift positions, but say it as though she's always been for whatever it is that's now popular - like how she has always "championed" $15 minimum wage, how she's always been for gay marriages, against the TTP etc. etc.


Probably repeating myself from previous postings, but Hillary is just too smooth and too comfortable for the public good.

When a liar like Trump make some claim, most would know he's lying and so would check on it. When Clinton lies, she's so good and so polite about it we wouldn't even think about the possibility of her lying. 

That and with a media that's submissive to those in power and the population living so precariously they hardly have any time to read much beside the few minutes of news... the US (and the world) could get into another few wars without even realising it.

I mean, Obama deported more people than all US presidents did, ever. He appoint a bunch of Wall St. and business friendly people into senior gov't positions and made a few Secretaries; the permanently extend the Bush Jr. tax cuts for the wealthy; permit the banks and too big to fail financial institutions to get even bigger; giving them free cash in the trillions; sign off on and expand drone wars on suspect all over the ME and Africa; fast tracking the TPP, pivot to Asia to confront China etc. etc.

but because he's painted as some "liberal" and "left" president, he could do it without people suspecting he'd ever do such a thing.

Anyway, it's between a rock and a hard place. I guess the American people are waking up to how not so special their country is and are demanding changes. Or else.


----------



## Tisme

Having been in the USA many times, it doesn't surprise me the sheeple attitude of the masses, not at all unlike those who walk amongst us who, by and large, have an illogical bond to our political parties.

But there is hope:


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I've started to feel a bit nervous about this election.  I can't see any possibility of a good outcome, either way.  A Clinton win would be 'safer', which is most important, but then there's just more of the same... meaning that the US continues its decline as a World power.  There's no way she has what it takes to create massive positive change. 

#beyourownpresident
#Ihavenopresident


----------



## Tisme

Animals!


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> When a liar like Trump make some claim, most would know he's lying and so would check on it. When Clinton lies, she's so good and so polite about it we wouldn't even think about the possibility of her lying.
> .




Yeh, with Trump you know exactly what you're dealing with.  He's the archetypal white, male, patriarchal, boss-man avatar and it's very easy to know how he's going to act in any situation.  That certainty has an appeal, because it's transparent and predictable.  It's also powerful, so you know things will get a real shake up.  However, under prolonged duress, such archetypes will falter.  They either morph into cruel dictators (like the Chinese and Russian leaders) or they start to doubt themselves and wobble and crack.  Wobbling and cracking is extremely unlikely, but it can happen.  Jeff Kennett wobbled and cracked, then mysteriously re-appeared as an advocate of mental health, claiming he was unaffected by the backlash.  I hope for Trump's sake he doesn't get elected.


----------



## McLovin

There's great piece by Edward Luce in the FT today (republished in the AFR) about how Twitter has debased political discourse into memes and divided society into ideologies. It's a longish read but worthwhile.


> Provocation is the goal of the so-called alt-right - the amorphous world of rightwing extremist groups that have thrived in the age of Donald Trump. Memes, such as the one of the Syrian boy, are their weapon. Notoriety is their oxygen. The past year or two have been a field day. "No matter what happens, I will be profoundly grateful to Trump for the rest of my life," says Spencer.
> 
> After what seems like the worst-tempered US election ever, America will at last make its decision on Wednesday (AEDT). History may look back on 2016 as the year when the US finally chose a woman to lead it, or when the postwar US-global order started to break up. Others will remember it as the election when a rank outsider - a reality-TV star, no less - stormed the citadel and changed the way the game was played.
> 
> For my part, having lived in America on and off since the end of the past century, this is the year when democracy's sense of restraint seemed to vanish. The glue of mutual respect that is so vital to any free society came unstuck. People no longer bother trying to persuade each other. They simply shove their views - or the mere fact of their identity - in your face. Or else they just insult you. The more retweets the better.
> 
> ...
> 
> For all its pluses, social media has drowned politics in vitriol. New technology has opened up a galaxy of thought once confined to libraries, but it has also enabled ancient prejudices to seep back into the mainstream - anti-Semitism, for example, and hatred of women. In the past few months, the Twitter hashtags #whitegenocide (the view that whites are endangered by multiculturalism) and #repealthe19th (the US constitution's 19th amendment gave women the right to vote) have trended heavily.
> 
> Obnoxiousness has infected all sides of the spectrum but the right has learnt how to play the game better. Partly because it is rebelling against political correctness, it works with fewer boundaries, or none at all. The level of trust between electors and elected has been falling for years. In 2016 the electorate has begun to turn viciously on itself. Is this a blip or a permanent shift? The future of free society may depend on the answer. Democracy cannot prosper for long in a swamp of mutual dislike.
> 
> ...
> 
> Every few days, Spencer and a group of alt-righters record a podcast called the Daily Shoah (the Hebrew word for the Holocaust). Participants are known as "Death Panellists". Spencer often greets his "fellow goyim" (the Hebrew word for non-Jews). It does not get less subtle than this. They also put great store on style. Many of their hashtags begin with #fash, which blends fashion with fascist. Thus Mussolini was a "#fasharapper".
> 
> Whenever Spencer, or a follower, tweets about a Jewish figure, or someone they think to be philo-Semitic, they put triple brackets on either side of their name. It is the Twittersphere's version of the yellow star. To subvert the symbol, Jewish journalists have taken to doing it themselves (((as have plenty of others))).
> 
> I ask Spencer why he does this. He seems capable of reasoned argument, even if his views repel. Yet he chooses not to. "We live in a post-literate age," he says. During the enlightenment people made their case through books - everything was mediated via the written word, he says. We are heading back to the pre-enlightenment era. People didn't read the Bible then; they looked at it. A clever meme may use a dash of text but it is essentially an image, or a video, that speaks to people's emotions - "like a hieroglyph or a stained-glass window", he says. The more it grabs them the better.





Read more: http://www.afr.com/news/world/us-el...the-twitter-age-20161107-gsk6wv#ixzz4PNMe6pAb


----------



## Knobby22

From post above:

_He seems capable of reasoned argument, even if his views repel. Yet he chooses not to. "We live in a post-literate age," he says. During the enlightenment people made their case through books - everything was mediated via the written word, he says. We are heading back to the pre-enlightenment era. People didn't read the Bible then; they looked at it. A clever meme may use a dash of text but it is essentially an image, or a video, that speaks to people's emotions - "like a hieroglyph or a stained-glass window", he says. The more it grabs them the better._

I'm hoping the Gen Zs will be better than this. Hopefully, we aren't going to go the way of sheep, ready for another dictator. If not, Democracy is in danger.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Having been in the USA many times, it doesn't surprise me the sheeple attitude of the masses, not at all unlike those who walk amongst us who, by and large, have an illogical bond to our political parties.
> 
> But there is hope:
> 
> 
> View attachment 68738




If those jellyfish lives in Australia's Great Barrier Reef, their numbers will thin and their long lineage might not last that much longer.

Serve them right for just floating around minding their own business when they could have evolve and create stuff that will not affect the environment at all.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh, with Trump you know exactly what you're dealing with.  He's the archetypal white, male, patriarchal, boss-man avatar and it's very easy to know how he's going to act in any situation.  That certainty has an appeal, because it's transparent and predictable.  It's also powerful, so you know things will get a real shake up.  However, under prolonged duress, such archetypes will falter.  They either morph into cruel dictators (like the Chinese and Russian leaders) or they start to doubt themselves and wobble and crack.  Wobbling and cracking is extremely unlikely, but it can happen.  Jeff Kennett wobbled and cracked, then mysteriously re-appeared as an advocate of mental health, claiming he was unaffected by the backlash.  I hope for Trump's sake he doesn't get elected.




Yea, but Trump seem to have too short an attention span to be doing too much damage. Wait, we have Bush Jr. to prove that that's not true. 

But as Trump's son allegedly promised some Senator Trump wanted as VP - "how would you like to be the most powerful VP in the history of the US". So Trump would just pass on any thinking to Pence, sign and read what's in front of him then go chasing skirts or something. 

But then seeing how every establishment organisation is against Trump, maybe the crazy dude is too crazy and won't stick with the programme.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> If those jellyfish lives in Australia's Great Barrier Reef, their numbers will thin and their long lineage might not last that much longer.
> 
> Serve them right for just floating around minding their own business when they could have evolve and create stuff that will not affect the environment at all.




Never been to the warm waters of Bribie Island luutzu?


----------



## drsmith

Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.20/$5.00 + 3 others at plenty.
Popular vote percentage: $1.12/$5.50.
Will the world end by 2020? (Bets void if Trump does not win): Yes $5.00.

I'm not sure what one would do with the winnings if the world does end.


----------



## drsmith

Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.10/$10.00 + 3 others at plenty.
Will the world end by 2020? (Bets void if Trump does not win): Yes $10.00.

ASX200 in a volatile morning has just shot up 50 points.


----------



## drsmith

It's tightened a little.

Winning candidate Sportsbet Hillary/Donald: $1.33/$3.18.
Will the world end by 2020? (Bets void if Trump does not win): Yes $3.32.

The ASX200 isn't quiet forecasting the end of the world just yet but it is down 24 points.


----------



## drsmith

EEK!

It's tightened a lot.

$1.82/$1.91.

My coffee bet may be in bother. 

Sportsbet is no longer offering end of the world odds on a Trump win.

ASX200 down 63.


----------



## McLovin

drsmith said:


> EEK!
> 
> It's tightened a lot.
> 
> $1.82/$1.91.
> 
> My coffee bet may be in bother.
> 
> Sportsbet is no longer offering end of the world odds on a Trump win.
> 
> ASX200 down 63.




It's tightened up a lot. Clinton isn't winning as much as she needs to in urban centres. This is going down to the wire.


----------



## drsmith

And a thin wire at that.

$1.87/$1.87 now.


----------



## moXJO

McLovin said:


> It's tightened up a lot. Clinton isn't winning as much as she needs to in urban centres. This is going down to the wire.




I thought Clinton was going to easily get this over the line.

 Although I talked to some friends in the US who were going to vote Trump because "Singers and actors should shut the f*ck up".
I suppose people are just sick of the establishment over there.


----------



## McLovin

moXJO said:


> I thought Clinton was going to easily get this over the line.
> 
> Although I talked to some friends in the US who were going to vote Trump because "Singers and actors should shut the f*ck up".
> I suppose people are just sick of the establishment over there.




She was supposed to. The actors and singers were just to deflect from Clinton's own unpopularity.


----------



## moXJO

McLovin said:


> She was supposed to. The actors and singers were just to deflect from Clinton's own unpopularity.




Given how we tend to follow the US, how long till Hanson becomes our PM?


----------



## moXJO

Well there's in upside already. A Trump win makes Sarah Hanson young sick.
https://twitter.com/sarahinthesen8/status/796186995617730560/photo/1


----------



## drsmith

$1.22/$4.00 in favour of Donald Trump now. 

Strike that out.

$1.17/$4.60.

ASX down 150.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Well there's in upside already. A Trump win makes Sarah Hanson young sick.
> https://twitter.com/sarahinthesen8/status/796186995617730560/photo/1



The ABC is probably also turning a little green at the moment.


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> The ABC is probably also turning a little green at the moment.




All the SJW are crying on Twitter at the moment. They went from smug a-holes, to now wanting to move to Canada.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> I thought Clinton was going to easily get this over the line.
> 
> Although I talked to some friends in the US who were going to vote Trump because "Singers and actors should shut the f*ck up".
> I suppose people are just sick of the establishment over there.




Holy shiet. I'm seeing a lot of red and pink on Reuter's map.

I guess people just don't buy the bs anymore.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> I guess people just don't buy the bs anymore.




Nah, they just buy a different brand.


----------



## pixel

luutzu said:


> Holy shiet. I'm seeing a lot of red and pink on Reuter's map.
> 
> I guess people just don't buy the bs anymore.








It's all over, Red Rover.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Nah, they just buy a different brand.




Yea. True.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Holy shiet. I'm seeing a lot of red and pink on Reuter's map.
> 
> I guess people just don't buy the bs anymore.




There's only so long you can eat s.hit for.


----------



## tech/a

McLovin said:


> Nah, they just buy a different brand.




Aint that true.


----------



## drsmith

It's tightening up a little again at $1.30/$3.35 in favour of Donald Trump and the ASX200 has gone from being 200 down to 130 down.

ABC's live page has the following on the US Senate,



> Chas Licciardello is reporting from his very well decorated US election bunker, he brings us this update on the results for the Senate.
> 
> "In Wisconsin, Republicans are 7 per cent up with 37 per cent counted. New Hampshire, 3 per cent up with 45 per cent counted and Missouri, 13 per cent up, those are three of the critical states. With those states there, they are on 52 seats, which means they can afford to lose New Hampshire and still keep the Senate, so at this point in time it is looking like the Republicans are very likely to keep the Senate.
> 
> "This means if Trump becomes president, he can do whatever he likes, he will have the House, the Senate and it'll be Trump time.
> 
> "If Clinton pulls it out, then she won't be able to do anything she likes, she will have a Republican Senate and a Republican House blocking her all the way."


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> It's tightening up a little again at $1.30/$3.35 in favour of Donald Trump and the ASX200 has gone from being 200 down to 130 down.
> 
> ABC's live page has the following on the US Senate,



As notting (ASF member) mentioned, the herd mentality will come to an acceptance of Frump being president and hope for better will buoy the markets. Maybe!


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Looking bullish from here.

edit{}


----------



## wayneL

drsmith said:


> The ABC is probably also turning a little green at the moment.




ABC radio, pure train wreck entertainment. 

This is great stuff. WW3 is worth this PMSL!


----------



## drsmith

Odds now $1.06/$8. Has got to $1.02/$12.

ASX200 down 92.

ABC cut it's broadcast of QT on Channel 21 short to have another of its stations covering the US election.


----------



## Knobby22

Trump as President!!! Wow.
Let's hope this works out. The USA need change, at least this will make it more likely. 
The Republican Party has been changed forever.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Trump as President!!! Wow.
> Let's hope this works out. The USA need change, at least this will make it more likely.
> The Republican Party has been changed forever.




Yes some deep reflection on what has just transpired is needed......

 Right after I troll all these SJW 
My God their tears are delicious.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> ABC radio, pure train wreck entertainment.
> 
> This is great stuff. WW3 is worth this PMSL!




Maybe now there will be no WW3,

Gold up $60 today, one could see coming.

Market drops are going to hurt a lot of innocents unfortunately, but as they were built on borrowings this had to come too.


----------



## qldfrog

Knobby22 said:


> Trump as President!!! Wow.
> Let's hope this works out. The USA need change, at least this will make it more likely.
> The Republican Party has been changed forever.




eh Knobby22, I fully agree with you again.What's happening???Interesting time ahead but I feel safer travelling to Russia, China and the US next year under Trump.


----------



## McLovin

Knobby22 said:


> Trump as President!!! Wow.
> Let's hope this works out. The USA need change, at least this will make it more likely.
> The Republican Party has been changed forever.




Lol. You can't say much more than Wow. The Democrats need to scuttle the Clintons and rid themselves of them. The era of passing the presidency as though it's a royal title through families is over. 

Strange world we are in.


----------



## Knobby22

McLovin said:


> Lol. You can't say much more than Wow. The Democrats need to scuttle the Clintons and rid themselves of them. The era of passing the presidency as though it's a royal title through families is over.
> 
> Strange world we are in.




You are onto something there McLovin.
As the reporter Shapiro said, the powers that be were expecting this to be a Bush/Clinton election.
Americans hate royalty. In the end I think Americans hated Clinton just a little more than they hated Trump.

I saw a stat that many people would have voted for Obama again (he had a 59% approval rating) but they couldn't stomach Clinton.


----------



## wayneL

ABC is calling it for Trump Bahahaha


----------



## drsmith

Sportsbet is still running a market. $12/$1.02.

A question now is the implications for our domestic politics.

Firstly, it makes Bill shorten look a little nuts based on his past commentary.

For the Libs, it's a bit more interesting. It will embolden the conservatives within the party leaving not much for Malcolm Turnbull but then he didn't stand to gain much either way given that he's still fighting battles on two fronts.


----------



## skc

Clinton not conceding tonight...


----------



## wayneL

Where's basilio?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Sometimes against-all-odds victories can inspire the gentle personality traits to emerge (compassion, humility, empathy).  Trump has them hidden away somewhere, so you never know - he might find a new maturity in this role.  I hope he has a good group of people to support and guide him, and reel him in when necessary.


----------



## basilio

Gringotts Bank said:


> Sometimes against-all-odds victories can inspire the gentle personality traits to emerge (compassion, humility, empathy).  Trump has them hidden away somewhere, so you never know - he might find a new maturity in this role.  I hope he has a good group of people to support and guide him, and reel him in when necessary.




That's really thoughtful Gringott.  Can you send me over a bit of what your having? It would be nice.

That's all folks.  No point worrying about what is going to happen now. The fuse is lit.


----------



## dutchie

The Deplorables stick it up Hillary.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

basilio said:


> That's really thoughtful Gringott.  Can you send me over a bit of what your having? It would be nice.
> 
> That's all folks.  No point worrying about what is going to happen now. The fuse is lit.




Double talk - I never know what you mean.  Bit like Hillary.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> The Deplorables stick it up Hillary.




Yep, the silent majority, telling establishment they are sick of being shafted.

Clinton was just offering more of the same and people aren't wearing it anymore, as the Brexit proved.

Also to a lesser extent, but more pertinent here, Pauline's resurgence.IMO

People are getting sick of the slippery slope, that the working middle class seem to be stuck on, in all Western Countries.


----------



## drsmith

wayneL said:


> ABC is calling it for Trump Bahahaha



They're now 215/289 on their count and all the networks in the US are calling a Donald Trump victory. Sportsbet is still going at $1.01/$17.

Pauline Hanson has been popping champers outside parliament and I'd imagine Andrew Bolt will be over the moon.

Michael Smith is also lapping it up,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...016-coverage-here-10pm-clint109-trump147.html


----------



## wayneL

Hills concedes


----------



## noco

Donald Trump is on his victory speech now...Go to 601 Foxtel.

The Socialists in the US have been defeated.


----------



## Tisme

That went well  A big win for Jerry Spinger fans that one 


Now for the Nostradamus memes a plenty


----------



## sptrawler

I wonder when he will get his head carved on Mount Rushmore, well money isn't a problem, so hey why not.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> I wonder when he will get his head carved on Mount Rushmore, well money isn't a problem, so hey why not.




Jelly Malcolm is running off at his sycophantic mouth about how great mutual friends we are with USA. I think it was a veiled warning to us to start banking our money under the mattress.


----------



## sptrawler

Tisme said:


> That went well  A big win for Jerry Spinger fans that one
> 
> 
> Now for the Nostradamus memes a plenty




A short sharp pain, is sometimes more acceptable than a death by a thousands cuts, the Labor and Coalition Parties should take notice.
A lot of working people are sick of being the mule for the whole fiscal system, welfare is looked after, politicians and rich people are looked after.
Unfortunately they aren't the majority of workers.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> A short sharp pain, is sometimes more acceptable than a death by a thousands cuts, the Labor and Coalition Parties should take notice.
> A lot of working people are sick of being the mule for the whole fiscal system, welfare is looked after, politicians and rich people are looked after.
> Unfortunately they aren't the majority of workers.




A BIG watershed !!


----------



## drsmith

Sportsbet's updated US politics betting pages has Hillary Clinton top of the pops at $1.30 all be it in a somewhat different market.

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting.../First-Person-Trump-Puts-in-Jail-3018429.html


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> A BIG watershed !!




Absolutely incredibly incompetent Democrats to let Trump win. It should never have happened had the Democrats looked after their constituency, ie the working class. Too much sucking up to Wall Street, and the big corporations.

Imagine if Shorten had said banking deregulation was good, he would have been murdered at the last election.

Sanders may well have done better than Clinton.


----------



## sptrawler

Tisme said:


> A BIG watershed !!




Exactly what is needed, just taking and taxing from the working class, while promoting a lethargy in society and allowing ridiculous CEO salaries has to end in tears.

A bit of a modern day, French Bastille day event. IMO

Frustration shows itself in many ways.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely incredibly incompetent Democrats to let Trump win. It should never have happened had the Democrats looked after their constituency, ie the working class. Too much sucking up to Wall Street, and the big corporations.
> 
> Imagine if Shorten had said banking deregulation was good, he would have been murdered at the last election.
> 
> Sanders may well have done better than Clinton.




I'll be happy not to hear her rhotic shrill for a while.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> Exactly what is needed, just taking and taxing from the working class, while promoting a lethargy in society and allowing ridiculous CEO salaries has to end in tears.
> 
> A bit of a modern day, French Bastille day event. IMO
> 
> Frustration shows itself in many ways.




Fox in the henhouse .... where's my popcorn


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Gringotts Bank said:


> Sometimes against-all-odds victories can inspire the gentle personality traits to emerge (compassion, humility, empathy).  Trump has them hidden away somewhere, so you never know - he might find a new maturity in this role.  I hope he has a good group of people to support and guide him, and reel him in when necessary.




Just heard the speech.  Thankfully it has a moderate, inclusive, non-combative tone.  A big sigh of relief.


----------



## qldfrog

sptrawler said:


> Exactly what is needed, just taking and taxing from the working class, while promoting a lethargy in society and allowing ridiculous CEO salaries has to end in tears.
> 
> A bit of a modern day, French Bastille day event. IMO
> 
> Frustration shows itself in many ways.




my opinion too wsptrawler, and I believe welcome if it kick the anthill and let democracy works again, in the US and elsewhere


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Imagine if Shorten had said banking deregulation was good, he would have been murdered at the last election.




No Shorten wanted to spend millions on a Royal Commission into Banks, to achieve what?
The 4 major banks underpin our economy, they need to make heaps of money, to prop up our useless economy.
I wish Shorten had got in and hammered the Banks, then Australians would have found out what real pain is.
Too many people, have had it too good, for too long. IMO
A crisis is needed, to give people and politicians a reality check, too many getting everything for nothing can't be sustained.


----------



## SirRumpole

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in terms of the effect of Trump on Australia.



> TPP: Trade pact dead, buried, cremated amid Donald Trump presidency
> Analysis
> By rural reporter Anna Vidot
> 
> Updated 14 minutes ago
> AACo wants cattle from Central Australia
> Photo: The Federal Government promised the TPP would deliver valuable new markets for Australian beef. (ABC Rural)
> Related Story: Howard 'distressed' Trump, Clinton ignoring TPP
> Map: Australia
> 
> It was an ambitious and controversial trade pact that would have covered nearly 40 per cent of the global economy and solidified US leadership in the Asia-Pacific.
> 
> But Donald Trump's victory in the United States' presidential election has likely killed off the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which the Turnbull Government promised would deliver valuable new markets for Australian beef, wheat and dairy.
> 
> Pro-traders in the US and within the Obama administration had held out hope that regardless of who won the US election, the TPP could be ratified by a 'lame duck' session of Congress ”” held after the election, but before the new president is sworn in.
> 
> The chance of that happening was always slim, after a presidential campaign that inflamed and fed on anti-trade sentiment.
> 
> But the victory of that movement's most vehement advocate in the US presidential election, pushes that chance beyond the plausible.
> 
> Opposition to the controversial Pacific trade pact was a centrepiece of Mr Trump's campaign from the start, and it will surely be irretrievably sunk the moment he takes the oath of office on January 20.
> Fact file: The Trans-Pacific Partnership
> It's been referred to as 'the dodgiest deal you've never heard of' and now, Fact Check answers your questions on the TPP.
> 
> The agreement, seven years in the making, was the jewel in the ground of the Obama administration's "pivot to Asia" ”” a plan to cement American leadership and influence in the Pacific region.
> 
> The 11 other TPP nations could conceivably forge ahead without the US, but that seems unlikely given much of the agreement's appeal was better access to the vast US economy.
> 
> The broader ramifications of a Trump presidency for global trade could be considerable.
> 
> He has promised to formally label China a "currency manipulator", and vowed to pursue trade cases against China at the World Trade Organisation (WTO).
> 'No indication Trump would renegotiate': Bishop
> 
> The Peterson Institute for International Economics in the US reported Mr Trump's trade policies could trigger trade wars with China and Mexico, and lead to a recession costing 4 million American jobs.
> 
> Mr Trump promised he would renegotiate international trade agreements if he won the White House, and argued that agreements like NAFTA ”” the North America trade pact covering the US, Canada and Mexico ”” were directly responsible for rust belt job losses and the decline of American manufacturing.
> 
> *Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop told the ABC she did not believe Australia's 11-year-old trade agreement with the US would be at the top of the list for renegotiation.
> 
> "There is no indication that Donald Trump would want to renegotiate the Australia-US free trade agreement," she said.
> 
> "We run a trade deficit with the United States. The US has a considerable surplus so it's unlikely to change.*
> 
> "In relation to the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which is a regional agreement, we are concerned that both candidates were opposed to the agreement in its current form."
> 
> Ms Bishop said Australia continued to urge the US Congress to ratify the TPP in its session during the transition period before Mr Trump's swearing-in.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-...uried,-cremated-amid-trump-presidency/8010736




So what f....ing benefit to us is the US - Australia FTA if the US has a "considerable surplus". Are we stupid or what  ? 

It's Australia not the US that should be renegotiating.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Meanwhile, back at the ranch in terms of the effect of Trump on Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> So what f....ing benefit to us is the US - Australia FTA if the US has a "considerable surplus". Are we stupid or what  ?
> 
> It's Australia not the US that should be renegotiating.




Well what is the problem, Shorten and the Labor Party want to help the needy. 
Well the U.S has more homeless than most, first world countries. 
The U.S has a minimum wage of $7, we have a minimum wage of $18, so why shouldn't Shorten congratulate Trump for wanting to help their own needy?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Meanwhile, back at the ranch in terms of the effect of Trump on Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> So what f....ing benefit to us is the US - Australia FTA if the US has a "considerable surplus". Are we stupid or what  ?
> 
> It's Australia not the US that should be renegotiating.




Look to Brexit and SE Asia for salvation. Indonesia will be the 4th biggest economy in 35 years and hungry for beef, wheat and baby formula. Asia will be 54% of Global GDP by 2050. UK will still be in the top 10 too.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I think the "rest of the world" is going to be quite surprised by what happens in the US.  Trump is going to make the US wealthy and powerful again, and I doubt he'll even give the r.o.w. much consideration.  You don't get rich by wondering what everyone else is up to, and whether it's ok to speak plainly and honestly.

I'd like to bet he doesn't leave US shores for at least 12 months, and even then probably only to briefly visit western Europe.  I think the US role as "world police" just ended today.  

The UN will have to pull its socks up, big time.  A lot of pressure is coming its way and it's about bloody time.  

Hopefully, 2nd and 3rd world nations will wake up to the realization that they have to look after themselves, which will cause those populations to pressure their governments for transparency, fairness and good policy.  If the UN supports them, [instead of being gutless and ineffectual], maybe it can happen.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely incredibly incompetent Democrats to let Trump win. It should never have happened had the Democrats looked after their constituency, ie the working class. Too much sucking up to Wall Street, and the big corporations.
> 
> Imagine if Shorten had said banking deregulation was good, he would have been murdered at the last election.
> 
> Sanders may well have done better than Clinton.




Sanders would have won. 

Serve the DNC and Hillary right for rigging the primaries and just practically laughed it off. I mean, the head of the DNC was caught rigging the election for Hillary and have to resigned, but was immediately made some senior advisor in the Clinton campaign. Then the lady who fed Clinton questions to cheat on the second debate was put in place as the new DNC chair... then they all blame Russia and point at how horrible Trump is.

Interesting times ahead.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Meanwhile, back at the ranch in terms of the effect of Trump on Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> So what f....ing benefit to us is the US - Australia FTA if the US has a "considerable surplus". Are we stupid or what  ?
> 
> It's Australia not the US that should be renegotiating.




You do know that Australia is a client, a vassal state, to Uncle Sam right?

Pretty much like how we were to Mother Britannia. 

So what buffoon the US elected as its leader, ours must kowtow on over and kiss the ring. Else go the way of Whitlam and other radical leaders who sometime forgot their place in the order of things.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think the US role as "world police" just ended today.




I doubt that. Even if Trump doesn't think it's the US's role to police the world, the military will be wary of erosion of US influence in Asia and the Middle East, especially wrt China and Russia, plus the increasing threat of terrorism.

Once Trump gets into the job, I'm sure the realities of global politics will be made clear to him. He has stuff all experience in international affairs right now.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> my opinion too wsptrawler, and I believe welcome if it kick the anthill and let democracy works again, in the US and elsewhere




Trump will be great for the US. Not because of his policies and what not, but because he's so incompetent and up himself the entire curtain will be pulled wide open.

When you see the media doing what they've been doing; then see an idiot like president Trump mouthing off his nonsense - simply stating facts in all its ugliness...

So maybe soon they'd get to see how the sausages are made and decides whether they'd want to keep on eating it.

Trump is like honest labelling.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt that. Even if Trump doesn't think it's the US's role to police the world, the military will be wary of erosion of US influence in Asia and the Middle East, especially wrt China and Russia, plus the increasing threat of terrorism.
> 
> Once Trump gets into the job, I'm sure the realities of global politics will be made clear to him. He has stuff all experience in international affairs right now.




Yea, don't think it'll change much. Maybe he'll play nicer with Russia since Putin did put him in office, ha ha. Can't believe the Clinton campaign thought that kind of stuff still work.

Heard some Chinese historian was quoted as saying that in the US, you can change political parties but not policy. And US foreign policy has always been, particularly since WW2, to be the sole global superpower. Hence the looming confrontation with Russia and China we will all have the pleasure of participating in over the coming decade.


----------



## sptrawler

Iuutzu, your last two posts were spot on.

It's just a protest vote, nothing much will change, but it is a wake up call for lazy establishment.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Iuutzu, your last two posts were spot on.
> 
> It's just a protest vote, nothing much will change, but it is a wake up call for lazy establishment.




All my posts are spot on Homer 

Yea, nothing much will change. But hopefully Trump and the establishment will smarten up a bit and not be like the Democrats smart move of offering diddly when it's pretty clear the plebs demand a few crumbs more.

Seems that the people are sick of being offered new figureheads to vote for every few years. You can only play that kind of game for so long before people smarten up about being shafted.


----------



## noco

The people of the US have spoken...They have had enough of the corrupt socialist left and this should be a wake up call to all Australians.

We need a Donald Trump to replace jelly Mally who is too weak to stand up to left dominated media...The left wing media who controls people's mind with their Socialistic propaganda.

I don't think it will be Pauline but somebody like Cory Bernardi who is a true conservative and prepared to speak his mind....Maybe.....Just maybe he may be the one to turn things around for Australia.

Both major parties are losing ground for not taking action on important issues.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> The people of the US have spoken...They have had enough of the corrupt socialist left and this should be a wake up call to all Australians.
> 
> We need a Donald Trump to replace jelly Mally who is too weak to stand up to left dominated media...The left wing media who controls people's mind with their Socialistic propaganda.
> 
> I don't think it will be Pauline but somebody like Cory Bernardi who is a true conservative and prepared to speak his mind....Maybe.....Just maybe he may be the one to turn things around for Australia.
> 
> Both major parties are losing ground for not taking action on important issues.





The US hasn't been socialist since FDR's New Deal, medicare, social security, banking regulation etc. etc.

What the yanks are saying today is they've had enough of whatever it is that their "representatives" have been feeding them. And it ain't socialism.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> The US hasn't been socialist since FDR's New Deal, medicare, social security, banking regulation etc. etc.
> 
> What the yanks are saying today is they've had enough of whatever it is that their "representatives" have been feeding them. And it ain't socialism.




If it ain't Socialism Luu, then why was Gillard always sucking up to Obama and why was Bill Shorten backing Hillary Clinton ?

Obama and Clinton are certainly not conservatives......Clinton's lies have come home to haunt her.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> All my posts are spot on Homer
> 
> Yea, nothing much will change. But hopefully Trump and the establishment will smarten up a bit and not be like the Democrats smart move of offering diddly when it's pretty clear the plebs demand a few crumbs more.
> 
> Seems that the people are sick of being offered new figureheads to vote for every few years. You can only play that kind of game for so long before people smarten up about being shafted.




Absolutely, politicians have to understand, plebs still have to believe effort is rewarded.
Currently the intake of economic refugees worldwide, is causing a massive labour shift, which is eroding living standards.
People would much prefer giving aid to countries, to help build their economies, the problem is who said they want to build their economies? Much easier to relocate to an established country.
The politicians like the idea because it puts downward pressure on established wages and upward demand on services, which the Government taxes. Win Win
The only losers are the working class, who pay the taxes to support the welfare, but they are the cannon fodder.
Unfortunately they are rebelling in the only way they can, quietly at the polling booth, if they do it in public they are ridiculed by the media.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> The US hasn't been socialist since FDR's New Deal, medicare, social security, banking regulation etc. etc.
> 
> What the yanks are saying today is they've had enough of whatever it is that their "representatives" have been feeding them. And it ain't socialism.




You are right, it isn't socialism, but it is a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

The common denominator is, the working class are paying for it, as is happening in U.K, Europe and Australia.

The GFC was a scam perpetrated by the U.S financial institutions, they made huge profits, which cost the working class of the World a massive drop in living standards.

Peoples savings, jobs and livelihoods were lost, the repercussions are still being felt.

Nothing has changed and people are fed up. The U.S fat cats are still there laughing at everyone.

So what do the people do, bring in the clowns, you treat us like fools, we might as well vote accordingly.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> Trump is going to make the US wealthy and powerful again, and I doubt he'll even give the r.o.w. much consideration.




How do you make the only superpower and the richest country the Earth has ever known wealthy and powerful _again_?


----------



## sptrawler

I see Kim Beazely hasn't lost his ability to talk, and say nothing.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/33158782/pressure-will-mount-on-aust-beazley/#page1

The ex-Labor leader is predicting there will be a lot of unhappy people in the United States to whom Mr Trump will have to reach out.

"But that's their problem, not ours," he told ABC's 7.30 program on Wednesday night.

"Our problem is with what he intends to do in the area of foreign policy and great pressure is about to come on us."
Some of his initiatives would seriously disturb people, leaving Australia to play some form of mitigating role in the southeast Asian region.

"They'll come to us privately and want to hear from us privately on what we intend to do about it," he said.

"We're going to really have to sit down and think through how we handle our responsibilities because running away is not an option."

He said government ministers should turn up in greater numbers in the US and get themselves into senior policy decision-making zones.


WOW, that is a deep and far reaching analysis, hope they didn't pay much for it.
I think Bill Shorten, handled it better, put it out there.lol


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> How do you make the only superpower and the richest country the Earth has ever known wealthy and powerful _again_?




Buy a Jeep.


----------



## aa07

Wasn't Hillary ahead in the polls, nearly the entire race? What happened? Were the polls inaccurate or something?


----------



## moXJO

You have to give the guy credit. 
He defied the odds and proved everyone wrong. I don't think anyone thought he could do it.


----------



## sptrawler

aa07 said:


> Wasn't Hillary ahead in the polls, nearly the entire race? What happened? Were the polls inaccurate or something?




No the pollsters contacted the people who supported Clinton, the silent majority don't bother answering surveys, they are too busy working.


----------



## Logique

The silent supporters of Trump were out there after all. This must give great hope to some of our Australian parliamentary cross bench Senators.

Trump will hire the best staffers for the White House, and won't be as beholden to donors and vested interests like the Clinton machine, with their highly compensated speaking tours, otherwise known as pay for play. 

See through the media spin, of which there'll be plenty in coming days. This is a chance for a fresh start in the US.

Just think, the Supreme Court judges _won't_ be appointed by a Clinton administration.


----------



## Tisme

I wonder why our party leaders are more eager to work hand in glove with an uncouth foreigner for the good of the country, than between themselves ... for the good of our country?


----------



## orr

I know that I speak for many of us here in expressing the bitter disappointment that the Trump Presidency has already  delivered. Not 24 hours after his election we see a backing away from the mass deportation of illegal immigrants we all had hoped for. I know we have all sat quietly at our local Klu Klux Klan chapter meetings knowing that Trump was our man, only for us to be the first thrown under the bus of.
This will be the first order of business at the lodge next Tuesday night, see ya'all there.


----------



## moXJO

orr said:


> I know that I speak for many of us here in expressing the bitter disappointment that the Trump Presidency has already  delivered. Not 24 hours after his election we see a backing away from the mass deportation of illegal immigrants we all had hoped for. I know we have all sat quietly at our local Klu Klux Klan chapter meetings knowing that Trump was our man, only for us to be the first thrown under the bus of.
> This will be the first order of business at the lodge next Tuesday night, see ya'all there.




Dry those tears ya salt mine. 

We might finally engage more seriously with Asia. Bill Shorten eating a big spoonful of s.hit and kissing up trumps a$$, hmm maybe not.

I haven't seen this much butthurt since brexit.


----------



## Knobby22

Socialist French president Francois Hollande is looking a bit foolish.
Said some undiplomatic things about Trump but was first in line to congratulate him.
His 11% approval rating might take another hit.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Socialist French president Francois Hollande is looking a bit foolish.
> Said some undiplomatic things about Trump but was first in line to congratulate him.
> His 11% approval rating might take another hit.




Even bankers and corporate titans are dressing up and clearing their schedules to line up around Trump Tower, forget about these "statesman". 

They know where the power is... so better hurry up and find more pleasant words than "pleaasseeeeeeee... forgive me. I didn't mean it!".

Trump better smarten up and do something for the masses, else he might be the US last president.

I mean Obama destroy that bs politics of speak softly but carry Wall St's water. Not because he change it, but because people had hoped that he would and he screwed them. 

You know, fool me once, shame on you; fool the fool again can't be fool again  Bloody W.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> If it ain't Socialism Luu, then why was Gillard always sucking up to Obama and why was Bill Shorten backing Hillary Clinton ?
> 
> Obama and Clinton are certainly not conservatives......Clinton's lies have come home to haunt her.




Obama and Clinton I and Clinton (was) II aren't Socialist. Not in the sense of caring for the unions or the workers or the plebs.

There's Bill's NAFTA which screws the American workers; There's Obama's TPP and TIPP which will further screw the workers - this time all over the world as well as America's.

Then there's Obama appointed whoever Wall St and corporate America tells him to appoint - bailing out the banks but giving diddly to the people who lost literally all their wealth.

Then there's the environment... The Native Americans and other greenies have been protesting the North Dakota pipeline for months now... what with the dam pipe running over Native American land, over sources of drinking water for tens of millions. What has Obama and Hillary done about it? "let see how it plays out for another few weeks."

There's the practically non-existent renewable energy investment he was on about; Clinton bragging about her promotion of fracking all over the US and the world.

It's nuts that we think Obama or Hillary are lefty. They're just as in the pockets of the masters of the universe as any politician could be. Anymore and they'd actually own a couple corporation of the not "not-for-profit" kind.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> I see Kim Beazely hasn't lost his ability to talk, and say nothing.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/33158782/pressure-will-mount-on-aust-beazley/#page1
> 
> The ex-Labor leader is predicting there will be a lot of unhappy people in the United States to whom Mr Trump will have to reach out.
> 
> "But that's their problem, not ours," he told ABC's 7.30 program on Wednesday night.
> 
> "Our problem is with what he intends to do in the area of foreign policy and great pressure is about to come on us."
> Some of his initiatives would seriously disturb people, leaving Australia to play some form of mitigating role in the southeast Asian region.
> 
> "They'll come to us privately and want to hear from us privately on what we intend to do about it," he said.
> 
> "We're going to really have to sit down and think through how we handle our responsibilities because running away is not an option."
> 
> He said government ministers should turn up in greater numbers in the US and get themselves into senior policy decision-making zones.
> 
> 
> WOW, that is a deep and far reaching analysis, hope they didn't pay much for it.
> I think Bill Shorten, handled it better, put it out there.lol




To be fair, Beazley have to go round and round because you can't just tell ministers of a sovereign nation of yours to better head over to Rome and be told what to do.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> How do you make the only superpower and the richest country the Earth has ever known wealthy and powerful _again_?




Theoretically, you could rebuild your infrastructure, create jobs and make healthcare and higher education much more affordable. Get rid of "tax incentives" for "investors", put more incentive towards new high-tech, or low-tech manufacturing and R&D instead of financial engineering, high risk speculation and corporate welfare.

Then you can make it strong again by not bloody have wars everywhere with everyone. Keep that resources at home and them weapons well sharpened instead of being blunted by endless use and over-expansion.

That or you could start to kill more Indians, take the other half of Mexico and carry on with that plan of 1812 to take Canada too.


----------



## noco

Dear USA Republican people, can Australia clone your President elect to replace our Prime Minister...We badly need a man like Donald Trump here in Aus.

We will also shift Cory Benardi from the senate to the lower house to be your deputy Prime Minister and some where along the line we will fit in Pauline Hanson.:aus:


----------



## Macquack

McLovin said:


> How do you make the only superpower and the richest country the Earth has ever known wealthy and powerful _again_?




Good point McLovin.

I think Trump can make a few more wealthy and a few more powerful and he will start with himself.


----------



## Macquack

moXJO said:


> You have to give the guy credit.
> He defied the odds and proved everyone wrong. I don't think anyone thought he could do it.




How can you defy the odds on a two horse race?

How can he prove everyone wrong when more than half were never proved wrong?

And Trump had the audacity to say that the election  was rigged.

Good luck America, you are going to need better odds than 50/50.


----------



## noco

Macquack said:


> How can you defy the odds on a two horse race?
> 
> How can he prove everyone wrong when more than half were never proved wrong?
> 
> And Trump had the audacity to say that the election  was rigged.
> 
> Good luck America, you are going to need better odds than 50/50.




Trump listened to the people of America and that is more than I can say about out two hopeless leaders in Australia.

Pauline Hanson listened to the people of Australia and that is why she is blossoming.....Stand by for the next election in Queensland...Hanson will hold the balance of power.


----------



## Muschu

Let's give Hanson to the USA to help Donnie out..... Throw in Palmer as well....

I'd be sad to lose such "talent" and intellect but if America is to be become great again then I'm prepared to suffer.... In fact delighted to do so.


----------



## noco

Muschu said:


> Let's give Hanson to the USA to help Donnie out..... Throw in Palmer as well....
> 
> I'd be sad to lose such "talent" and intellect but if America is to be become great again then I'm prepared to suffer.... In fact delighted to do so.




No way...We need Pauline here.......The only place Palmer will be thrown is in jail.

Pauline is a listener and that is more than I can say about Turnbull and Shorten...One is as hopeless as the other....Turnbull does not listen to anyone and Shorten only listens to his trade union masters.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> No way...We need Pauline here.......The only place Palmer will be thrown is in jail.
> 
> Pauline is a listener and that is more than I can say about Turnbull and Shorten...One is as hopeless as the other....Turnbull does not listen to anyone and Shorten only listens to his trade union masters.




I think the Liberals will rue the day, they swapped Abbott for Turnbull.

Pauline will do well, because all Australians can chose between, Mr Beige or Mr Cream, pick a colour.

Or to put it more simply, does middle Australia, want to be shafted, or shafted.lol

We have a crisis and neither Party is accepting it.


----------



## Tisme

> This whole question about sub-ordination to the United States in a sort of broad policy terms, this society of ours is a better society than the United States.




https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/australian-exceptionalism?utm_term=.ecmG9OPgkJ#.lobKzPgdpG


----------



## sptrawler

Well here is an analysis, from the U.S.A as opposed to our self centered rhetoric, if you wish to read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/u...n=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region&_r=0


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Trump listened to the people of America and that is more than I can say about out two hopeless leaders in Australia.
> 
> Pauline Hanson listened to the people of Australia and that is why she is blossoming.....Stand by for the next election in Queensland...Hanson will hold the balance of power.




Trump never listen to anyone. He has never give a crap about anyone but himself.

So he'll disappoint a lot of his core supporters the way Obama has disappoint a lot of the lefties.

Trump won because voters who would have gone Democratic didn't bother turning out. They're sick of the likes of Clinton and doesn't hate Trump enough to line up for someone they dislike. 


if Trump has any sense, he will change the way American politics is run and really benefit the masses. If he give them the same old bs, which is very likely seeing the kind of person he is, god help US.

I have a feeling, and this could be just my optimism, is that the yanks will get organised and demand Trump to shape up... and so he will. That the public will scare Trump and his handlers more than the monied interests that Trump will do right by the people. Then he will be its new FDR... That or the Republic of USA will go the way of the DNC under Obama and Hillary - and if that happen, it will not be because people just stay home and stay quiet.


----------



## sptrawler

Here is the typical sensationalism our journalists revel in.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-10/protests-break-out-in-response-to-trump-election/8013024

An extract:
In New York, thousands of protesters filled streets in midtown Manhattan as they made their way to Trump Tower, while hundreds of others gathered at a Manhattan park and shouted: "Not my president."

WOW, thousands of people, in a City of 8 million come on get a grip.

Just another example of the vocal minority, getting more air time, than the silent majority.


----------



## moXJO

Macquack said:


> How can you defy the odds on a two horse race?
> 
> How can he prove everyone wrong when more than half were never proved wrong?
> 
> And Trump had the audacity to say that the election  was rigged.
> 
> Good luck America, you are going to need better odds than 50/50.




Umm there were the primaries as well and he knocked them put one by one. 
Oh you thought he magically got put in there to milk democrats and republicans  tears did you?
The fact that he made it is horrifying, but also defied the odds.
His party didn't support him, neither did the media or anyone else and was out funded by a huge amount. Up until yesterday it was Hillary all the way.
It was an accomplishment. He surrounded himself with the right people and a tonne of lies and got the job done.

America hardly needs the bleating from the Australian media, actors or lefties to save them. This country has the most docile sheeple in the world. 
The US is finally trying to break away from the entrenched establishment in Washington. I have no faith in trump, but this is the first step. And it's an important one.


----------



## qldfrog

moXJO said:


> America hardly needs the bleating from the Australian media, actors or lefties to save them. This country has the most docile sheeple in the world.
> The US is finally trying to break away from the entrenched establishment in Washington. I have no faith in trump, but this is the first step. And it's an important one.



Maybe a ray of hope for the 50% in the western world who are blamed for being too rich, white, hetero,working, not public servant and can see that for every illegal immigrant, there is one job less or 10 tax payers put to contribution, and for most politician, a pig in a trought
Why were big business, journos and lawyers (the same who are our politicians) shocked? Anyone living a real life in the western world is not surprised.
May the establishment learn or will they adopt a Merkel/french socialist attitude: open the gate and flood the countries with immigrants until a majority of the voters are on welfare/no tax and so become an easy electorate to please.
In places, being in jail remove your voting rights,; in a logical society, so should being on welfare; That would change the way we are governed (sp?)
Good luck on the US.
Sadly (as it could be done in a more refined way with proper democracy), Putin and Trump are the last bastion of the western civilisation.And so far, not impressed by the alyternative offered in civilisation models: China or Saudi arabia?


----------



## MrBurns

It was a bad dream right ?

Looks to me the US market will flourish as Trump cuts off trading partners to bring jobs back home but that doesn't mean it will benefit Australia.

I'll be looking to get out of the market very soon to wait and see.

Trump has no idea how to run a country , he got himself elected ok but from here on ?


----------



## qldfrog

MrBurns said:


> It was a bad dream right ?
> 
> Looks to me the US market will flourish as Trump cuts off trading partners to bring jobs back home but that doesn't mean it will benefit Australia.
> 
> I'll be looking to get out of the market very soon to wait and see.
> 
> Trump has no idea how to run a country , he got himself elected ok but from here on ?



Agree ity may not be good for Australia, but will be good for the US, as for Trump having no ideas on how to run a country , do you think obama had a clue, the role of the president is to choose a team, not do the niutty gritty.Time will tell


----------



## Logique

One side is delivering this:




While the other side delivers unruly street mobs, and petulant attention-seeking tantrums.


----------



## Junior

MrBurns said:


> It was a bad dream right ?
> 
> Looks to me the US market will flourish as Trump cuts off trading partners to bring jobs back home but that doesn't mean it will benefit Australia.
> 
> I'll be looking to get out of the market very soon to wait and see.
> 
> Trump has no idea how to run a country , he got himself elected ok but from here on ?




The american market is comprised many companies which derive a big chunk of their profits from Asia, from asian consumers and via products manufactured with cheap Asian labour.  There will be winners and losers under Trump but it will not be as clear cut as investing in US shares or Aussie shares IMO.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Here is the typical sensationalism our journalists revel in.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-10/protests-break-out-in-response-to-trump-election/8013024
> 
> An extract:
> In New York, thousands of protesters filled streets in midtown Manhattan as they made their way to Trump Tower, while hundreds of others gathered at a Manhattan park and shouted: "Not my president."
> 
> WOW, thousands of people, in a City of 8 million come on get a grip.
> 
> Just another example of the vocal minority, getting more air time, than the silent majority.




Sore losers aren't they?

In other news, Trump's team is said to have contacted JPMorgan Chase & Co's CEO asking whether he'd want to be the next Secretary of the Treasury. 


Bill Clinton put some Citi bank's CEO - Rubin - in the same position, the guy allowed Citi to merge with another major bank to form CitiGroup... once he left office, the joined CitiGroup for about $15m a year. 

Bush Jr. appointed Goldman Sach's CEO in the same position. The banks got bailed out while homeowners got the free market.

Obama kept the same dude; later appoint some other banker.

And now Trump is upsetting the apple cart by appointing JPMorgan instead of Goldman Sachs.


These guys really don't know why Clinton lost and a guy like Trump won.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> These guys really don't know why Clinton lost and a guy like Trump won.





Oh don't worry, they all know why Trump won.

From today's West Australian newspaper:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...n-deal-to-foil-state-election-backlash/#page1

The working class are sick of being shafted, elites and left wing social engineering, is really pi$$ing off the middle class who are paying for it

Politicians from both sides will be worried, the silent majority are getting angry.

That is why the Coalition need to get Abbott back, having Bill Shortens twin as leader, isn't going to cut it.
Pauline just needs to get more runners and she will shoe it in, so to speak.lol


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Oh don't worry, they all know why Trump won.
> 
> From today's West Australian newspaper:
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...n-deal-to-foil-state-election-backlash/#page1
> 
> The working class are sick of being shafted, elites and left wing social engineering, is really pi$$ing off the middle class who are paying for it
> 
> Politicians from both sides will be worried, the silent majority are getting angry.
> 
> That is why the Coalition need to get Abbott back, having Bill Shortens twin as leader, isn't going to cut it.
> Pauline just needs to get more runners and she will shoe it in, so to speak.lol




They know, but their policies doesn't show they really know.

They're still sticking to the conventional wisdom that as long as you change a new label with a new face, voters will be happy and so business can go on as usual. Then if that don't work out, you change again at the next election cycle.

Keep that up long enough and there won't be any need for any election.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> They know, but their policies doesn't show they really know.
> 
> They're still sticking to the conventional wisdom that as long as you change a new label with a new face, voters will be happy and so business can go on as usual. Then if that don't work out, you change again at the next election cycle.
> 
> Keep that up long enough and there won't be any need for any election.




Well there isn't a lot else the middle class can do, they can't march on Parliament, or tie themselves to a tree, they are too busy working.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Well there isn't a lot else the middle class can do, they can't march on Parliament, or tie themselves to a tree, they are too busy working.




Well they had better. Can't have servants serving your way by turning up to the polls every few years then go home til next time.


----------



## Logique

The Donald might surprise a few people. Good piece from Peter Smith.



> Divine Providence and Donald Trump
> By Peter Smith, 11 Nov 2016: http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/11/divine-providence-donald-trump/
> 
> There is about the president-elect the excitement of possibility. He cannot 'drain the swamp', as supporters chanted at his rallies, as it has grown far too big. But he might just reclaim quite a bit of the solid ground and values engulfed by waves of PC rectitude...


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> The Donald might surprise a few people. Good piece from Peter Smith.




This is the sort of bloke we need here in Australia because by hell things are certainly getting out of hand with Turnbull and Shorten.....I think the Green/Labor left wing coalition and the CFMEU are paying Turnbull with brown paper bags.....Is Turnbull a Labor stooge?????


----------



## Knobby22

Trump to retain Obama care with mods. Good. He is acting for everyone like he said he would.  He might turn out to be a very good President.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Trump to retain Obama care with mods. Good. He is acting for everyone like he said he would.  He might turn out to be a very good President.




ObamaCare isn't as liberal or generous as it's made out to be. It's practically written by the insurance industry for Obama to sign. So of course Trump is going to keep it.. .and will tweak the parts that barred insurers from denying care due to "pre-existing condition" - like having a cut to your pinky in primary school or some thing.

I heard that on average, ObamaCare premium had jumped 25% on last year's rate. And a lot of workers just cannot afford it so are now deciding whether to quit and take their chances.


That's not to say that it does no good... my wife's uncle in the US was lucky enough to sign up and not get rejected... then soon after he got cancer. If it weren't for ObamaCare, he would have lost his family's house to pay for the medical care.

But yea, Trump will either be one of the US great presidents; or he'll be another Obama and we can all get to watch the place collapse from within.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> This is the sort of bloke we need here in Australia because by hell things are certainly getting out of hand with Turnbull and Shorten.....I think the Green/Labor left wing coalition and the CFMEU are paying Turnbull with brown paper bags.....Is Turnbull a Labor stooge?????




I thought we've already got more than a few who tells us what we want to hear.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> I thought we've already got more than a few who tells us what we want to hear.




It is not so much as those who tell us what we want to hear, it is those whom are listening to what we fear.

This is the trouble with the two major parties, they don't want to know what the average Joe Blow thinks.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> It is not so much as those who tell us what we want to hear, it is those whom are listening to what we fear.
> 
> This is the trouble with the two major parties, they don't want to know what the average Joe Blow thinks.




What is it that the people fear that weren't forced fed into them?

Muslims? Islam? Terrorism everywhere? Drugs? Welfare cheats. Welfare recipients are lazy druggies who should be taught the hard lessons of life while those with money and influence should be "incentivised" with less tax and more rebates so they'd work harder - I mean, what does NAB knows about business people right? Money is everything to entrepreneurs and inventors.

Trust me noco, it's when the population have nothing to fear that they're made to be fearful. That's how the gov't can take away your privacy, spend tonnes of your cash on some stupid program that none of your kids will ever benefit from.

It's during times of real crisis - like a serious invasion from a no-nonsense imperial power... it's during fearful times that the leaders will tell us there's nothing to be afraid of.

That's the basic rule of Machiavellian, master of man kind of bs.


As to politicians not knowing how the average joe is doing... they know it very well. They engineer the bloody thing. They know, just they don't give a dam.

So if we care about the rights that our forefathers [yours, mine weren't here yet ] have fought for, the first thing to do is to stop believing in that heroic leader. Not even Pauline Hanson could save us. 

If it's a democracy for the people we want, we better go get it. It's not going to be handed down to us because they somehow care.


----------



## Tisme

Can't always get what you want


----------



## basilio

Just a quiz to see if we can identify the sinister elite that are taking over the country.  
Enjoy..



> * Are you a sinister filthy elite? Take this quiz and find out now!*
> First Dog on the Moon
> 
> Elites! Everything is their fault, they run the country and the media without even being in government or owning News Corp




https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-filthy-elite-take-this-quiz-and-find-out-now


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Just a quiz to see if we can identify the sinister elite that are taking over the country.
> Enjoy..
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-filthy-elite-take-this-quiz-and-find-out-now




Who in the hell would be bothered coming from the Guardian communist rag....OMG...LMAO.


----------



## wayneL

For you bas


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Melania and Ivanka looking a touch disappointed at Donald's views during the interview.  And when Ivanka speaks, Donald seems a bit edgy and embarrassed about her liberal and compassionate attitude.  It's hard to watch - she's so beautiful and intelligent and she just doesn't get heard by her father.

Overall, very impressive performance by all of them.  But there's a male/female divide.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> For you bas





To be fair Sifu, Bas would have prefer someone like Sanders. But to have to choose between Trump or Clinton, the lesser of two evil was a bit less painful.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Melania and Ivanka looking a touch disappointed at Donald's views during the interview.  And when Ivanka speaks, Donald seems a bit edgy and embarrassed about her liberal and compassionate attitude.  It's hard to watch - she's so beautiful and intelligent and she just doesn't get heard by her father.
> 
> Overall, very impressive performance by all of them.  But there's a male/female divide.




You hear how Trump said he's not going to draw a salary as president?

Trump knows too well that apprentices do not get pay for on the job training. 

Zinger trademarked by me.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> Zinger trademarked by me.




luutzu....

.....

You're fired!


----------



## Logique

Mark Latham opens fire on bias
[video=youtube_share;u77Jmuf_Z1g]http://youtu.be/u77Jmuf_Z1g[/video]


----------



## Tisme

Logique said:


> Mark Latham opens fire on bias




LOL. Have to hand it to Mark for best TV performances in the "manufactured indignation" awards.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> luutzu....
> 
> .....
> 
> You're fired!




Firing is the third step in Trump's Business Model (TM).

First step was no pay for apprenticeship.

Second step: make crappy products and offer dodgy services at nose bleed prices.

Third Step: Bankrupt business and firing people.


----------



## Knobby22

This graph says it all.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> Second step: make *crappy *products and offer *dodgy *services at nose bleed prices.




Everything he does is the highest quality.  It's part of his brand.  

But I can't figure out how he's going to pay for everything he wants to do re: infrastructure spending, especially with such big tax cuts.  The only thing I can imagine happening is that his brand and symbolism (success/wealth/confidence) permeates society and people start to embody that attitude.  Because that can work wonders.


----------



## dutchie

Tisme said:


> LOL. Have to hand it to Mark for best TV performances in the "manufactured indignation" awards.




Yes, he was quite impressive.

And for the printed media awards:

NOT the Queensland University Students

and 

NOT Bill Leak


----------



## bellenuit

If true, this is shocking. 

*Most people arrested at Portland anti-Trump protests didn’t vote, report says*

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...nd-trump-protests-didn-vote-article-1.2874408


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> If true, this is shocking.
> 
> *Most people arrested at Portland anti-Trump protests didn’t vote, report says*
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...nd-trump-protests-didn-vote-article-1.2874408




This is journalism ey.

Repeat what the authority said; quote a few internet comments. Done.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Everything he does is the highest quality.  It's part of his brand.
> 
> But I can't figure out how he's going to pay for everything he wants to do re: infrastructure spending, especially with such big tax cuts.  The only thing I can imagine happening is that his brand and symbolism (success/wealth/confidence) permeates society and people start to embody that attitude.  Because that can work wonders.




I thought it's business model of late is simply to sell his name. Charge a fee for builders to stick "TRUMP" on their building, or their whatever.

A lot of "his" businesses have gone broke because he was just the front man. No quality checks, no idea what the business is... they just pay royalty for the Trump brand, and for a bit extra he'd even play the Chairman.

So he'll fit in perfectly in his new role as POTUS.

-----

Mexico could always pay for them. I mean they're already on the books for that new wall 

Some smart guy was quoted as saying that US was at a turning point in 2009. Obama didn't make the turn. So they got themselves Trump.

if Trump doesn't make the turn, you don't want to think what a Trump replacement would be like.

The too big to fails that Clinton and Bush Jr. unleashed just got a whole lot bigger under Obama. The tax cuts to the rich just got a lot permanent under Obama. The couple of wars under Bush Jr. got blown to 8 wars and countless drone strikes under Obama.

The poor got poorer and the 20 richest American own half the dam place. With the top 1% owning more than the rest.

If Trump doesn't turn but instead accelerate the current trajectory - and it looks like he's doing just that from hearing the kind of people "he" is putting in place for his administration - it is not going to end well.

This kind of decay comes about from imperial hubris. Where the current generations of "statesman" just cannot remember their own history, or learn anything from history, and seriously believe that their country is great because it simply is great and that whatever it is that they do, it will always be great.

As FDR once said to a friend: If I fail, I will be the last president of the United States. So I will either be one of its greatest president, or its last.

He wasn't referring to the threat from Japan or Hitler's Germany.


----------



## luutzu

Funny, and horrifying.


----------



## Tisme

If Trump backs out of the trade pact, it should be a salutary day for the Liberal Party supporters, given the Howard Govt's hatred of anything with a whiff of Hawke/Keating smell.

It was bad enough that a war time Labor PM enlisted the aid and USA over the Ol' Dart, but to subject the Lib donor class to capitalistic competition was a shocker.... almost as bad as trading and diplomatic relationships with the asian neighbourhood!!!

Thank goodness Bush Jnr came along and gave us the opportunity to go to war as the deputy sheriff of the barbarian hordes. No wonder Trump answered Malcolm's call two rings in.... that and using the mate's only number from Greg Norman.


----------



## noco

Why is it through out the World the left are doing their best to destroy democracy?

Trump is only USA President elect and the left are already talking about assassinating him because they don't like the result.....They are doing their level best to make life hell for Trump.

It is the same here in Australia where the left go out of their way to disrupt our way of life when and where ever they can.....Socialism does not work.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...t/news-story/71216e4042afe22169f5bcfb55990e83


*DONALD Trump has exposed the hypocrites. His win has so deranged the Left that it’s now proved that it is what it condemns.

No wonder disgusted voters turned against it, electing Trump the next president of the US.

Go through the checklist of the Left’s hypocrisy.




A University of Chicago student’s protest sign following the Trump win. Picture: Getty Images/AFP
The Left is the violence it denounces.

The Left attacked Trump for “inciting violence” and demonstrators now protesting his election carry placards declaring “Love Trumps Hate”.




Donald Trump speaks following his election victory. Picture: AFP
Yet Leftists violently disrupted Trump’s campaign rallies and bashed his supporters.

Since his election they have staged more violent demonstrations against him in several US cities, with one in Portland declared a riot.

In Chicago, a white man was filmed being bashed and robbed of his car while a black crowd shouted “Don’t vote Trump”.

Social media has meanwhile been flooded with calls to “assassinate Trump”, with Guardian freelance writer Monisha Rajesh tweeting: “It’s about time for a presidential assassination.”

She’s not alone in the media class. A Los Angeles Times freelance reporter, Steven Borowiec, tweeted: “I would rather see Donald Trump’s life end.” In June, an NBC producer praised a man who to tried to murder Trump as “a good guy with a gun”.

The Left here shares this hatred. In Sydney’s Newtown, so far Left that its state MP is a Green, the After School Klub at the Newtown Public School organised “art therapy classes” for students as young as five who, it confirmed, “were saying we should kill Trump”.

It is the Left that spawns the most political violence — from the Russian Revolution to the Red Brigades and now Black Lives Matter — and Trump has proved it.*


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Why is it through out the World the left are doing their best to destroy democracy?
> 
> Trump is only USA President elect and the left are already talking about assassinating him because they don't like the result.....They are doing their level best to make life hell for Trump.
> 
> It is the same here in Australia where the left go out of their way to disrupt our way of life when and where ever they can.....Socialism does not work.



Or...  an alternative explanation that isn't highly politicised and seen through the left/right political spectrum is that people,  no matter if they are left, right or somewhere in between, are and always have been, deposed to violence when their ideologies/desires are not met (see Will to Power).

Gee whizz,  that kind of thinking doesn't sell newspapers though and certainly doesn't give pleasure to those with a big bout of good ol' confirmation bias.

It's any wonder people are angry,   the politicisation of everything within the left/right spectrum is absolutely tedious.   When it reaches this stage you know that politics has long become just another form of consumer entertainment replete with cheer squads for both sides.


----------



## luutzu

good interview. Chomsky's on Trump's presidency.


https://chomsky.info/20161114/


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> good interview. Chomsky's on Trump's presidency.
> 
> 
> https://chomsky.info/20161114/




It is deeply ironic that Chomsky invoked Goebbels into his argument, Grasshopper. 

Sorry, Noam has lost the plot,  no longer deserving of the title of public intellectual,  but now ideological leftist advocate. 

Vis a vis, what a crock of shyte.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> It is deeply ironic that Chomsky invoked Goebbels into his argument, Grasshopper.
> 
> Sorry, Noam has lost the plot,  no longer deserving of the title of public intellectual,  but now ideological leftist advocate.
> 
> Vis a vis, what a crock of shyte.




I don't remember reading Goebbels in that interview. He did mention Goebbels and the Nazi in others, but he wasn't pointing to the Republicans saying it.

Define Left, Sifu. The Left isn't the Democratic Party or Labor. 

It's hard to argued that a man who says all US president since WW2, by the same standard use at the Nuremberg trial, would be hanged. Hard to say that a man who said all US presidents committed war crimes is a leftist (Dems, Labor).

How many in the media, how many "intellectual" do you hear ever saying that? Maybe Chris Hedges, beside that, nada.

I mean, take Sam Harris - a neuro scientist and intellectual, I guess - listen to the excuses he comes up with for war crimes and terrorism committed by the West: we mean well, so all our killings are ooppsies.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> It is deeply ironic that Chomsky invoked Goebbels into his argument, Grasshopper.




He didn't.  The interviewer did.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> Or...  an alternative explanation that isn't highly politicised and seen through the left/right political spectrum is that people,  no matter if they are left, right or somewhere in between, are and always have been, deposed to violence when their ideologies/desires are not met (see Will to Power).
> 
> Gee whizz,  that kind of thinking doesn't sell newspapers though and certainly doesn't give pleasure to those with a big bout of good ol' confirmation bias.
> 
> It's any wonder people are angry,   the politicisation of everything within the left/right spectrum is absolutely tedious.   When it reaches this stage you know that politics has long become just another form of consumer entertainment replete with cheer squads for both sides.




Ves there was no rioting or demonstrations after Obama was elected.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> good interview. Chomsky's on Trump's presidency.
> 
> 
> https://chomsky.info/20161114/




Luu, this is what I was referring to before, the socialists left just will not accept democracy so they are now going all out to make life difficult for Trump......They are terrified about a man who is about to stand up to there crap.

I mean, for Chomsky to compare Trump to Goebbels, Hitler and the Nazis is just one of desperation before the man is sworn in as President.

They destroyed Abbott in the same fashion.

The socialist left are wreckers and will stop at nothing to fulfill their dreams of a socialist state.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Ves there was no rioting or demonstrations after Obama was elected.



To imply there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best,  deceitful at worst.

There was a massive spike in hate crimes against black people in the first weeks of his presidency and plenty of racist hate speech by those white men who could not accept that a black man was now their president.

Maybe you don't remember the vivid imagery of nooses and talk of lynching or shooting black people (especially Obama),  but I'm fairly sure they do.

There is always some kind of protest after a US election.  Especially when it's seen by enough people as divisive like Trump or Obama.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> I mean, for Chomsky to compare Trump to Goebbels, Hitler and the Nazis is just one of desperation before the man is sworn in as President.



For the second time,  Chomsky himself did not compare Trump to Goebbels.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> To say there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best,  deceitful at worst.
> 
> There was a massive spike in hate crimes against black people in the first weeks of his presidency and plenty of racist hate speech by those white men who could not accept that a black man was now their president.
> 
> Maybe you don't remember the vivid imagery of nooses and talk of lynching or shooting black people (especially Obama),  but I'm fairly sure they do.
> 
> There is always some kind of protest after a US election.  Especially when it's seen by enough people as divisive like Trump or Obama.




The DHS says that right wing extremism is a bigger threat to the US than Islamic extremism. (And it's killed more people since 9/11)


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> The DHS says that right wing extremism is a bigger threat to the US than Islamic extremism. (And it's killed more people since 9/11)



Yep!  And they don't even bother using an election as an excuse either.


----------



## luutzu

Ves said:


> To imply there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best,  deceitful at worst.
> 
> There was a massive spike in hate crimes against black people in the first weeks of his presidency and plenty of racist hate speech by those white men who could not accept that a black man was now their president.
> 
> Maybe you don't remember the vivid imagery of nooses and talk of lynching or shooting black people (especially Obama),  but I'm fairly sure they do.
> 
> There is always some kind of protest after a US election.  Especially when it's seen by enough people as divisive like Trump or Obama.





Not to mention the Birther movement that denies Obama was ever born in the US. Trump caught on to that movement and ran with it until very recently.


----------



## Ves

And seriously,  if you think there were no protests re Obama's presidency go and read about the Tea Party and the response they funded.

There's no illusion as to what side of politics those people are from and how dangerous some of their supporters are.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> For the second time,  Chomsky himself did not compare Trump to Goebbels.




It does not matter who said it, the inference is still there and shows just how desperate the socialist left really are these days....They will stop at nothing....Time to say goodbye to Socialism


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> The DHS says that right wing extremism is a bigger threat to the US than Islamic extremism. (And it's killed more people since 9/11)




I agree. And it is the left which is responsible for opening that door.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> It does not matter who said it, the inference is still there



That's a monumental bit of spinning you've attempted to try and cover what really was a sloppy piece of reading on your part.

Probably easier just to admit you made a mistake.  No one will think any less of you.


----------



## wayneL

Ves said:


> For the second time,  Chomsky himself did not compare Trump to Goebbels.




True, sloppy on my part, eas reading it between jobs.

But Chomsky still perpetuates disingenuous propaganda in his replies. So the irony remains.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> I agree. And it is the left which is responsible for opening that door.



I don't disagree with that.

However,  I think it has more to do with the absence of any real Left in mainstream politics than it does in having too much influence from the so-called Left.

It's fairly complicated in my view,  and I'm not really sure I can adequately explain it at this point. But the rapid growth in wealth in the Western world in the 20th century seems to have influenced a shift in "Left" policy.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> It does not matter who said it, the inference is still there and shows just how desperate the socialist left really are these days....They will stop at nothing....Time to say goodbye to Socialism




Chomsky did talk of a possible Hitler rising in the US. But he does not have a clown like Donald Trump in mind. 

That's what some on the "left" are saying about Trump... but Trump is Hitler-veryLite.

A Hitler, or a Caesar, would upend the current order. And despite the rampant corruption and inequality, we all hope and pray that no one upend the entire system, especially one with nukes and military bases everywhere. 

See, a serious danger the US (and Western democracies) are facing is that a honest to God, clean, patriotic and power-hungry maniac step up and take over. Trump is too petty and too busy sexually assaulting women to want to do anything that ambitious and difficult.

If he had, he would have joined the military and go to war in his youth. Instead, he sat around making money and cheating people. Guys like that have as much interest in uprooting the system as he has wanting to be a better man when caught bragging about his sexual assaults.

The political and economic condition in the West is about right for a revolution. You know, you can't have peace and tranquillity when 1% owns practically the entire country while the others are either in debt up to their eyeballs or too poor to be indebted. 

The only places you can have that kind of inequality and still have peace would be a police state. So unless the West head that way, it's not going to happen because the masses just wouldn't take it. So either crack their heads (legally) or start changing. And I think we all agree that peaceful change is needed.

Seriously, if we look at any area in any detail... there's just corruption and screwing the poor everywhere. It's just insane.

There's the media; education; infrastructure funding; taxation; finance; investment; life's savings; retirement savings; job security... then of course, politics.

-------

Socialism was tried in the US and Europe after WW2. It did work. 

No, Socialism weren't tried in China or Soviet Union. It was talked about and written about there, but it was implemented in the West.

That is why there is such a thing as medicare, social security, unions to represent the interests of workers when dealing with big employers who aren't shy about screwing their workers. etc. etc


----------



## qldfrog

Ves said:


> I don't disagree with that.
> 
> However,  I think it has more to do with the absence of any real Left in mainstream politics than it does in having too much influence from the so-called Left.
> 
> It's fairly complicated in my view,  and I'm not really sure I can adequately explain it at this point. But the rapid growth in wealth in the Western world in the 20th century seems to have influenced a shift in "Left" policy.



And absence of real Right as well, politics becomes a lame  crowd pleasing exercise with no conviction or ideal...played by professional politicians building a career..Not a nice show,,


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Chomsky did talk of a possible Hitler rising in the US. But he does not have a clown like Donald Trump in mind.
> 
> That's what some on the "left" are saying about Trump... but Trump is Hitler-veryLite.
> 
> A Hitler, or a Caesar, would upend the current order. And despite the rampant corruption and inequality, we all hope and pray that no one upend the entire system, especially one with nukes and military bases everywhere.
> 
> See, a serious danger the US (and Western democracies) are facing is that a honest to God, clean, patriotic and power-hungry maniac step up and take over. Trump is too petty and too busy sexually assaulting women to want to do anything that ambitious and difficult.
> 
> If he had, he would have joined the military and go to war in his youth. Instead, he sat around making money and cheating people. Guys like that have as much interest in uprooting the system as he has wanting to be a better man when caught bragging about his sexual assaults.
> 
> The political and economic condition in the West is about right for a revolution. You know, you can't have peace and tranquillity when 1% owns practically the entire country while the others are either in debt up to their eyeballs or too poor to be indebted.
> 
> The only places you can have that kind of inequality and still have peace would be a police state. So unless the West head that way, it's not going to happen because the masses just wouldn't take it. So either crack their heads (legally) or start changing. And I think we all agree that peaceful change is needed.
> 
> Seriously, if we look at any area in any detail... there's just corruption and screwing the poor everywhere. It's just insane.
> 
> There's the media; education; infrastructure funding; taxation; finance; investment; life's savings; retirement savings; job security... then of course, politics.
> 
> -------
> 
> Socialism was tried in the US and Europe after WW2. It did work.
> 
> No, Socialism weren't tried in China or Soviet Union. It was talked about and written about there, but it was implemented in the West.
> 
> That is why there is such a thing as medicare, social security, unions to represent the interests of workers when dealing with big employers who aren't shy about screwing their workers. etc. etc




Luu, just more typical Socialists scare tactics...FFS...just give up on it please.
:guitar::headshake


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> good interview. Chomsky's on Trump's presidency.
> 
> 
> https://chomsky.info/20161114/




The preamble seems to be a convenient statement and rather arrogant if the writer thinks Goebbels would be impressed by the grumpy old white man voter turnout doing what old white men tend to do as they age.  His target audience would have been the youth vote, which Hillary garnered.

This time around there wasn't a Kenyan, closet muslim candidate to vote for, thus the drop in the black voter turnout.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> That's a monumental bit of spinning you've attempted to try and cover what really was a sloppy piece of reading on your part.
> 
> Probably easier just to admit you made a mistake.  No one will think any less of you.




Admit what mistake?.....You are talking through A$$.


----------



## sptrawler

At last an article, that captures my take, on why the silent majority are pi$$ed off.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a...ise-the-trump-effect-is-about-survival/#page1

It isn't written overly well, but the overall sentiment is spot on. IMO 

What Brendan Grylls is suggesting, is the only sensible tax on a non renewable resource.
All of our resources should have a $/ volume tax, not a tax on the profit.
The resource extraction and production cost, should be benchmarked against competing Countries costs and a $/Kg extraction cost applied.
This should be set so as to not make our resource uncompetitive, but ensure we receive value for every ton removed.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> To imply there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best,  deceitful at worst.
> 
> There was a massive spike in hate crimes against black people in the first weeks of his presidency and plenty of racist hate speech by those white men who could not accept that a black man was now their president.
> 
> Maybe you don't remember the vivid imagery of nooses and talk of lynching or shooting black people (especially Obama),  but I'm fairly sure they do.
> 
> There is always some kind of protest after a US election.  Especially when it's seen by enough people as divisive like Trump or Obama.




Where did you get your information from regarding protests after Obama was elected?

http://history.stackexchange.com/qu...e-protests-after-presidential-elections-in-us

*However, I cannot find news records of mass protests after the previous Obama or Bush elections 

Is this just an example of the media playing the news up, or is this actually the first time in recent history such mass protests have been organised against the new president immediately after the election? *

I think you are talking through your A$$ again....Best you do some home work first next time.


----------



## Tisme

Interesting excuse for protest:

http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/11/trump-bashing-protesters-look-said-obama-won/

"he" = Trump



> But that stands in stark contrast to what he was saying in 2012 following President Obama’s landslide victory, when he called for America to “march on Washington” and railed against the “phony electoral college,” accusing President Obama of an illegitimate victory because he “lost” the popular vote.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> At last an article, that captures my take, on why the silent majority are pi$$ed off.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a...ise-the-trump-effect-is-about-survival/#page1
> 
> It isn't written overly well, but the overall sentiment is spot on. IMO
> 
> What Brendan Grylls is suggesting, is the only sensible tax on a non renewable resource.
> All of our resources should have a $/ volume tax, not a tax on the profit.
> The resource extraction and production cost, should be benchmarked against competing Countries costs and a $/Kg extraction cost applied.
> This should be set so as to not make our resource uncompetitive, but ensure we receive value for every ton removed.




What a good idea.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> I think you are talking through your A$$ again....Best you do some home work first next time.




I never said there were mass protests.  I said there was a spike in hate crimes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-hatecrimes-idUSTRE4AN81U20081124

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27738018/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> What a good idea.




Yes, if you troll back to the introduction of the resource rent tax, you will find I said an increase in the royalties on tonnage was the way to go.

It was probably in the Useless Labor party thread, as the super profits tax was a useless suggestion.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Admit what mistake?.....You are talking through A$$.



The mistake where you said it was Chomsky that compared Trump to Goebbells.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The preamble seems to be a convenient statement and rather arrogant if the writer thinks Goebbels would be impressed by the grumpy old white man voter turnout doing what old white men tend to do as they age.  His target audience would have been the youth vote, which Hillary garnered.
> 
> This time around there wasn't a Kenyan, closet muslim candidate to vote for, thus the drop in the black voter turnout.




From what I heard of the polling data, those who voted for Trump now aren't all "old white men" (aka, racist? patriots? ). They're from the same area that voted for Obama.

So it's the getting screwed by the likes of Hillary and Obama that turn them to Trump, or to sit it out and not give a dam.

Even women aren't too hot for Hillary. I think she got around the same percentage as Trump for women. How does that happen?

Good thing she didn't win, else those supporters of hers might actually get cuts when the crazy Dems literally break that glass ceiling above whatever hall they were gathering to celebrate her anointment.

I'm glad Trump win. 

It will finally put an ugly face to go with the ugly politics. So either voters don't mind that, or they'd protest and demand changes. That or Trump could start a war with China and unite the yanks in fear again.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> At last an article, that captures my take, on why the silent majority are pi$$ed off.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a...ise-the-trump-effect-is-about-survival/#page1
> 
> It isn't written overly well, but the overall sentiment is spot on. IMO
> 
> What Brendan Grylls is suggesting, is the only sensible tax on a non renewable resource.
> All of our resources should have a $/ volume tax, not a tax on the profit.
> The resource extraction and production cost, should be benchmarked against competing Countries costs and a $/Kg extraction cost applied.
> This should be set so as to not make our resource uncompetitive, but ensure we receive value for every ton removed.




That'd be like asking the gov't to establish trade policies to increase actual competition instead of more protectionism.

It always boils down to the old argument: for the economy to grow, gov't have got to get tough on the poor but give the rich more loving. 

Serious man, that's what all gov't policies boils down to.

How do we help the poor off the dole? Kick their azzes.

How do we get the rich and corporations to pay their share of our wealth? Cut their taxes.

How do we afford welfare? We can't! Cut it.

How do we afford tax cuts? We can! Cut it so that it may grow.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> That or Trump could start a war with China and unite the yanks in fear again.




Americans aren't galvanised by fear, they unify through the arrogant belief they are mankind's salvation manifest as US citizens and fighting men.

The rise of the US was as a manufacturing hub for the British Empire, its big boosts came from supplying the British war machine in both big wars, plus Russian in the second.

The inflate their worth by claiming victory against impossible odds or coming to the rescue of the under dog, while profiting greatly for the exercise. The US has never empire built, but enjoyed the fruits of fallen ones and the lack of any to profiteer from post WW2 means they are in decline and the older white guy population can see it happening (60%++ voted for Trump).


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Interesting excuse for protest:
> 
> http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/11/trump-bashing-protesters-look-said-obama-won/
> 
> "he" = Trump




He thought it was unfair, but rules are rules and he must have to live with it. 

It's like how Clinton would've follow Bill and Barry and put Goldman Sach into Treasury. Trump would have none of that. He's thinking of putting JPMorgan Chase's. Dimon is better than gold.

He's also putting his current Energy advisor - billionaire oil baron Hamm - as possible Secretary of Energy. Take that renewables!


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> He's also putting his current Energy advisor - billionaire oil baron Hamm - as possible Secretary of Energy. Take that renewables!




I remember being part of a large corporation that is now a big player on the world stage. Back in the mid 80's we could see the need for new industry that would spawn new income, it was renewables. It was easily understood that a need had to be established to create consumers, so we bounced around ideas like climate change, pollution, scarcity of resource, etc.

I'm sure a business man in charge of energy would see the value in flogging high profit technologies to abate climate change and oil depletion. The low profit me too manufacturing can be left to China and Mexico.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> I never said there were mass protests.  I said there was a spike in hate crimes.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-hatecrimes-idUSTRE4AN81U20081124
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27738018/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/




*To imply there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best, deceitful at worst.*

So you are saying one thing and meaning something else.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Americans aren't galvanised by fear, they unify through the arrogant belief they are mankind's salvation manifest as US citizens and fighting men.
> 
> The rise of the US was as a manufacturing hub for the British Empire, its big boosts came from supplying the British war machine in both big wars, plus Russian in the second.
> 
> The inflate their worth by claiming victory against impossible odds or coming to the rescue of the under dog, while profiting greatly for the exercise. The US has never empire built, but enjoyed the fruits of fallen ones and the lack of any to profiteer from post WW2 means they are in decline and the older white guy population can see it happening (60%++ voted for Trump).




Their rise came about long before the two World Wars, McQueen. 

Started soon after they, with French help, kick the British out; then kick the Brits again in 1812; then buy off Louisiana Territory from that short dude; then "explore" and take half of Mexico; then kick the Spanish out of Florida... that and most of the Natives.

So they got a few scores of experience and empire building before Teddy bear Roosevelt thought to build some boat, take over a canal from the savages who don't know what to do with their land, and arms everyone who needs some leases.

But yea, maybe the older White guys can see the decline, but they ought to also see that Trump is a pussycat with fake tan and mane. He's no empire builder. 

---

Starting to watch Roman Empire on Netflix.

Commodus taking over from Marcus Aurelius and run the empire into the ground with hubris and imperial overreach.

Not sure if Aurelius' reign over the same borders as Augustus had drawn, but it just go to show that you cannot control every corner of the world. You'd be bankrupt.

Iraq is estimated to cost the US about $US7 trillion in another couple of years. That's a lot of cash. You could buy a lot of oil and a whole lot of friends, and maybe a build a few schools and send a few hundred million kids to uni.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> *To imply there was no form of protest at all is inaccurate at best, deceitful at worst.*
> 
> So you are saying one thing and meaning something else.



No where did I say that there was *Mass* protest.

However hate crimes are a form of protest.   Which you've been linked to.  Honestly I've got no idea why you're trying to argue.  It happened,  Obama became president and some people didn't take it peacefully.

Your whole argument seems to be that the Right aren't violent but the Left are.  Which is utter bull**** and quite honestly if you actually believe that you've got a much lower IQ than I could have ever imagined.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> The mistake where you said it was Chomsky that compared Trump to Goebbells.





Who gives a dam who said it...Both Chomsky and Polychroniou are socialists and tarred with the same brush.

The comments made by Polychroniou were absolutely ruthless and typical of the way in which the socialist left wing operate.

Lies..Lies..and more lies and propaganda to discredit a guy who has not yet been given the chance to prove himself........Accept that Trump has won in a democratic way and get over it.

*On November 8, 2016, Donald Trump managed to pull the biggest upset in US politics by tapping successfully into the anger of white voters and appealing to the lowest inclinations of people in a manner that would have probably impressed Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels himself.

But what exactly does Trump’s victory mean, and what can one expect from this megalomaniac when he takes over the reins of power on January 20, 2017? What is Trump’s political ideology, if any, and is “Trumpism” a movement? Will US foreign policy be any different under a Trump administration?

For more original Truthout election coverage, check out our election section, “Beyond the Sound Bites: Election 2016.”

Some years ago, public intellectual Noam Chomsky warned that the political climate in the US was ripe for the rise of an authoritarian figure. Now, he shares his thoughts on the aftermath of this election, the moribund state of the US political system and why Trump is a real threat to the world and the planet in general.

C.J. Polychroniou for Truthout: Noam, the unthinkable has happened: In contrast to all forecasts, Donald Trump scored a decisive victory over Hillary Clinton, and the man that Michael Moore described as a “wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full-time sociopath” will be the next president of the United States. In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics?

Noam Chomsky: Before turning to this question, I think it is important to spend a few moments pondering just what happened on November 8, a date that might turn out to be one of the most important in human history, depending on how we react.

*

Even barnacle Bill said Trump was mad......I bet that went down with the Trump fans in the US.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Their rise came about long before the two World Wars, McQueen.
> 
> Started soon after they, with French help, kick the British out; then kick the Brits again in 1812; then buy off Louisiana Territory from that short dude; then "explore" and take half of Mexico; then kick the Spanish out of Florida... that and most of the Natives.
> 
> So they got a few scores of experience and empire building before Teddy bear Roosevelt thought to build some boat, take over a canal from the savages who don't know what to do with their land, and arms everyone who needs some leases.
> 
> But yea, maybe the older White guys can see the decline, but they ought to also see that Trump is a pussycat with fake tan and mane. He's no empire builder.
> 
> ---




We'll have to differ on that. The US is nothing close to the Spanish, British and German Empires. They were part of a mercantile arm of the British Empire and derived their wealth from supply of finished goods prior to WW1. As late as the US civil war, it was fairly well accepted that if the Brits moved to protect their Southern States interests it could have done so, but thought better of it. 

There was never any real concerted effort to put in the good fight in 1776 nor 1812, because they had better options elsewhere. The yanks tried it on with Canada, but they backed down quickly once the Brits threatened a heavy hand.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Who gives a dam who said it...



People who care about factual accuracy.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I remember being part of a large corporation that is now a big player on the world stage. Back in the mid 80's we could see the need for new industry that would spawn new income, it was renewables. It was easily understood that a need had to be established to create consumers, so we bounced around ideas like climate change, pollution, scarcity of resource, etc.
> 
> I'm sure a business man in charge of energy would see the value in flogging high profit technologies to abate climate change and oil depletion. The low profit me too manufacturing can be left to China and Mexico.




Any one would see the benefits, but not a business man whose wealth comes from oil.

I don't think you guys drop the renewables idea from lack of demand or interest in clean air and energy security etc.

It was most likely drop because the powers that be have ship loads of energy they've invested truckloads of infrastructure and markets for, already. So it'd be more economical to just keep digging and pumping. 



I heard that China is leading the world in Solar technologies and manufacturing.

It was invented way back during the space race, power all satellites and space station [right?]. But it was shelved for domestic consumption.

Why?

The US own and/or control practically all world's the oil fields; got that infrastructure and auto manufacturing built around oil and fossil. That and the military industrial complex needs jobs arming tyrants and liberate terrorists.

China is polluting itself to death with fossil. Then all the good oil/gas fields are staked out and protected [besides the seas nearby it]... so it will have to diversify and get green.


See how capitalism, if left too large and too powerful, could ruin progress and people?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> We'll have to differ on that. The US is nothing close to the Spanish, British and German Empires. They were part of a mercantile arm of the British Empire and derived their wealth from supply of finished goods prior to WW1. As late as the US civil war, it was fairly well accepted that if the Brits moved to protect their Southern States interests it could have done so, but thought better of it.
> 
> There was never any real concerted effort to put in the good fight in 1776 nor 1812, because they had better options elsewhere. The yanks tried it on with Canada, but they backed down quickly once the Brits threatened a heavy hand.




That's your British version of history. 

I don't know of any empire that could take people's land, let alone colonies they once own, but thought it's not nice to start another war. Just doesn't happen.

The Poms couldn't retake 'merika after 1812 because Napoleon was knocking at its gates back home. And its better options elsewhere was Australia right after 1776 where the yanks won't accept any more convicts and the other European powers were mapping out the world and asking the Pope for his blessings. 

It's only after the short dude got locked up on st Helena [?] that Europe was free to liberate and plunder the world. starting with Africa and moving on East, and South. But not West because the yanks aren't going to play nice, and they got Indian and Mexican blood to prove it.


Not sure why they decided not to invade Canada. Too cold and oil weren't discovered yet me think.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> That'd be like asking the gov't to establish trade policies to increase actual competition instead of more protectionism.
> 
> It always boils down to the old argument: for the economy to grow, gov't have got to get tough on the poor but give the rich more loving.
> 
> Serious man, that's what all gov't policies boils down to.






luutzu said:


> How do we help the poor off the dole? Kick their azzes.



No, but if a job is available(that they are qualified for) and they don't want it, should they get the dole?



luutzu said:


> How do we get the rich and corporations to pay their share of our wealth? Cut their taxes.



Who knows, but we don't seem to be doing well with manufacturing, they are offshoring.
With miners, which find it easy to strip our above ground minerals, no one seems to want to charge them.



luutzu said:


> How do we afford welfare? We can't! Cut it.




Welfare is a huge problem, that is why we have the boat people problem, Indonesia doesn't seem to be a place they wanted to settle.
We have a system where the next generation pays for the last, it is braking down because the next generation won't have the jobs and are starting to take more welfare than the older generation. Add to that the amount of people arriving later in life, and qualifying for pensions after paying minimal tax, it all becomes onerous.
Therefore the burden is placed on the middle class wage earner, they can't avoid tax, and they get angry.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Who gives a dam who said it...Both Chomsky and Polychroniou are socialists and tarred with the same brush.
> 
> The comments made by Polychroniou were absolutely ruthless and typical of the way in which the socialist left wing operate.
> 
> Lies..Lies..and more lies and propaganda to discredit a guy who has not yet been given the chance to prove himself........Accept that Trump has won in a democratic way and get over it.
> 
> *On November 8, 2016, Donald Trump managed to pull the biggest upset in US politics by tapping successfully into the anger of white voters and appealing to the lowest inclinations of people in a manner that would have probably impressed Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels himself.
> 
> But what exactly does Trump’s victory mean, and what can one expect from this megalomaniac when he takes over the reins of power on January 20, 2017? What is Trump’s political ideology, if any, and is “Trumpism” a movement? Will US foreign policy be any different under a Trump administration?
> 
> For more original Truthout election coverage, check out our election section, “Beyond the Sound Bites: Election 2016.”
> 
> Some years ago, public intellectual Noam Chomsky warned that the political climate in the US was ripe for the rise of an authoritarian figure. Now, he shares his thoughts on the aftermath of this election, the moribund state of the US political system and why Trump is a real threat to the world and the planet in general.
> 
> C.J. Polychroniou for Truthout: Noam, the unthinkable has happened: In contrast to all forecasts, Donald Trump scored a decisive victory over Hillary Clinton, and the man that Michael Moore described as a “wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full-time sociopath” will be the next president of the United States. In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics?
> 
> Noam Chomsky: Before turning to this question, I think it is important to spend a few moments pondering just what happened on November 8, a date that might turn out to be one of the most important in human history, depending on how we react.
> 
> *
> 
> Even barnacle Bill said Trump was mad......I bet that went down with the Trump fans in the US.




To call Chomsky a leftist [democrat] is like calling WikiLeak and Julian Assagne a Trump supporter.

They bring us the facts, we the people decide what to do with it.


We should stop thinking that there's this Left and Right stuff in politics.

There's no left or right, there's only the Masters and the Slaves.

Magna Carta gave the Barons and Nobility the legal rights to protect their assets and liberty from the King. 

We plebs, through a lot of struggles and fights, wrestled some of that right from the Barons and their descendants - it's mostly rights given in words, not actual deeds as you need money and lawyers if justice fail to see your case.

We've won enough rights that the real owner and masters of ours are afraid of us. So they design Left/Right politics; give up the ballot box and someone they selected for us to choose from etc. etc.

All the while stealing our taxes, enrich themselves, and ask that we keep liking it. And we will as long as we believe that jobs and money and freedom comes from some great leader above. 

That's a summary of what Chomsky points out through the many examples of real history of our democracies.


There should be monuments build to the man. That's if we build monuments to people who actually spend their life fighting for the people and not using the people to enrich and empower themselves.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> To call Chomsky a leftist [democrat] is like calling WikiLeak and Julian Assagne a Trump supporter.
> 
> They bring us the facts, we the people decide what to do with it.




Facts??????????...Yes so long as they are true and acurate.

You cannot tell me what was in that interview was facts....It was all about discrediting Trump with lies and propaganda.

*C.J. Polychroniou for Truthout: Noam, the unthinkable has happened: In contrast to all forecasts, Donald Trump scored a decisive victory over Hillary Clinton, and the man that Michael Moore described as a “wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full-time sociopath” will be the next president of the United States. In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics?*

Is this what you call facts described by Michael Moore???????????????..FFS

This is typical of the way the Socialist left wing Fabian indoctrination  works...They cannot accept democracy.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> This is typical of the way the Socialist left wing Fabian indoctrination  works...They cannot accept democracy.




Trump would not have accepted democracy if he lost. He said so himself, but I don't hear Hilary saying "we wuz robbed".


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Trump would not have accepted democracy if he lost. He said so himself, but I don't hear Hilary saying "we wuz robbed".




No, but you see all her supporters rioting in the streets.

The good old left wing moderates, rioting, because they didn't get their own way, what a suprise. I think not.lol


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Trump would not have accepted democracy if he lost. He said so himself, but I don't hear Hilary saying "we wuz robbed".




I would say Trump was referring to the dirty tricks being played out by the Socialist left......He knew the propaganda being put out by the left could have gone against him and that why he commented about democracy...Democracy is a dirty word with the Democrats and they would stop at nothing to win......Ah La the Mediscare put up by Labor here at the last election.......Unfortunately the naive who were phoned at midnight believed the lies Shorten and Labor were promoting......Win at all costs...that is there motto.
:topic 
Yes I know I am off topic with that tit bit.


----------



## noco

I cannot remember in the history of the USA or during my long life, has there been so much attention given to an American Presidential election both here and in the USA.

The lies and the innuendos thrown at Trump during the election campaign and then after his is elected is unbelievable.

Little do they realize it, but the left radicals are giving Trump more strength with  their continued criticism...The name calling is working in his favor just as it did for Pauline Hanson here in Australia.

He is certainly getting plenty of publicity and support with his scrapping of the Paris agreement, the banning of any more Muslim immigration and playing to the field of the middle class.

The whole Western World is about to change thanks to Donald Trump and the socialist left around the world and the UN don't like it, hence their all out attack on a man who is prepared to take on this cancer that has slowly crept into our lives.

I do hope a strong leader will emerge in Australia in the shadow of Donald Trump.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> The lies and the innuendos thrown at Trump during the election campaign and then after his is elected is unbelievable.




You really can't be serious. I think you have lost it. Angel Donald never told any lies at all ? ROFL.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> That's your British version of history.
> 
> I don't know of any empire that could take people's land, let alone colonies they once own, but thought it's not nice to start another war. Just doesn't happen.
> 
> The Poms couldn't retake 'merika after 1812 because Napoleon was knocking at its gates back home. And its better options elsewhere was Australia right after 1776 where the yanks won't accept any more convicts and the other European powers were mapping out the world and asking the Pope for his blessings.
> 
> It's only after the short dude got locked up on st Helena [?] that Europe was free to liberate and plunder the world. starting with Africa and moving on East, and South. But not West because the yanks aren't going to play nice, and they got Indian and Mexican blood to prove it.
> 
> 
> Not sure why they decided not to invade Canada. Too cold and oil weren't discovered yet me think.




For a fella who questions history, you are pretty quick out of the blocks to accept the fenestrated version of the Colonial American, Louis 16 and Catherinian antagonists. 

The Spanish Empire was well before Napoleon , as was the Industrial revolution and Empire in Britain, the French Louis, the Dutch, the Portugese, etc; all predating and flowing over 1783 by a couple of hundred years at least.

The 1812 war started because the US declared war on the UK in a grab for the Canadian territory while Britain was focused on French marching into Moscow. The Brits retaliated by invading the US with a peppercorn force. The yanks still make out they were the victims of a war declared by the poms and still celebrate the low act of the Battle of New Orleans where the far superior British army honouring the Treaty of Ghent had to fend off Andrew Jackson's deliberate blindness to the rules of war etiquette of the time. To the Brits the US was a sideshow that only deserved about 5% of it's military force to beat the US, which it did.


----------



## Tisme

I bet this gets used to break away form the Chinese trade agreements:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37997706


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> You really can't be serious. I think you have lost it. Angel Donald never told any lies at all ? ROFL.




Geez, Rumpy you are now becoming so desperate.......Where did I say he never told any lies?...They are your words not mine.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> *I cannot remember *in the history of the USA or during my long life, has there been so much attention given to an American Presidential election both here and in the USA.



That's because you've got the memory of a gold fish.

It's almost unfathomable that you cannot remember the mass protests led by the Tea Party against Obama in 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests

And these conspiracy theories before and *after* his election:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories

I'm not sure how you can have a sook about protests against Trump,  but turn a blind eye to these.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Geez, Rumpy you are now becoming so desperate.......Where did I say he never told any lies?...They are your words not mine.



Actually the reverse is true.  You're desperate.

Desperate for a world where only authoritarian right-wing rule is in place.  You're not interested in democracy at all,  you're just interested in those that agree with your lunatic fringe views being constantly in power.


----------



## McLovin

This thread is hilarious. The noco bot is in full swing.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> This thread is hilarious. The noco bot is in full swing.



It's pretty amusing,  a bloke who hates 18C/D,  says he campaigns for free speech,  but doesn't want people protesting against Trump.


----------



## Tisme

McLovin said:


> This thread is hilarious. The noco bot is in full swing.




yeah I like where this is going... popcorn anyone?


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> It's pretty amusing,  a bloke who hates 18C/D,  says he campaigns for free speech,  but doesn't want people protesting against Trump.




A presidential candidate says he won't accept the result unless he wins. Par for the course, it's the other side's fault. A few thousand people, in a country of 320m, protest because they don't like who the president is. Democracy under threat!

You can't make this cr@p up.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> A few thousand people, in a country of 320m, protest because they don't like who the president is.




Damn Fabians.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> A presidential candidate says he won't accept the result unless he wins. Par for the course, it's the other side's fault. A few thousand people, in a country of 320m, protest because they don't like who the president is. Democracy under threat!
> 
> You can't make this cr@p up.



By the sounds of it there's at least another 100m "reds"  hiding under our the beds of normal, upstanding Americans.

When noco was just a little boy,  apparently 75 years ago,   his mummy and daddy used to tell him about monsters in the night just like all other law-abiding, decent parents.  Whereas most kids at the time were told of awful big hairy Cyclops and nasty little grelims,  noco was told of little Russian men wearing Green suits (to hide the red attire underneath) who would steal all your money and assets if you didn't sleep with one eye open.  

To this day I hear he wakes up in fits and sweats in the night,  just there's no mummy and daddy around to give him a cuddle....  most of the other kids have all grown up though, and realise that monsters under the bed aren't true.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Facts??????????...Yes so long as they are true and acurate.
> 
> You cannot tell me what was in that interview was facts....It was all about discrediting Trump with lies and propaganda.
> 
> *C.J. Polychroniou for Truthout: Noam, the unthinkable has happened: In contrast to all forecasts, Donald Trump scored a decisive victory over Hillary Clinton, and the man that Michael Moore described as a “wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full-time sociopath” will be the next president of the United States. In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics?*
> 
> Is this what you call facts described by Michael Moore???????????????..FFS
> 
> This is typical of the way the Socialist left wing Fabian indoctrination  works...They cannot accept democracy.




I happen to agree with Moore's summary of Trump there. But Chomsky didn't characterised Trump.

In fact, he said there are things Trump said that he agrees with. But have always said that it is hard to tell what a Trump presidency will do because we don't know exactly what Trump really said and whether he mean it or not.

I guess that's giving Trump a chance there.

But like he also said in that interview... so far it's not looking good.

I mean, wanting to get your kids Top Secret clearance? The US is a family business now?


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> By the sounds of it there's at least another 100m "reds"  hiding under our the beds of normal, upstanding Americans.
> 
> When noco was just a little boy,  apparently 75 years ago,   his mummy and daddy used to tell him about monsters in the night just like all other law-abiding, decent parents.  Whereas most kids at the time were told of awful big hairy Cyclops and nasty little grelims,  noco was told of little Russian men wearing Green suits (to hide the red attire underneath) who would steal all your money and assets if you didn't sleep with one eye open.
> 
> To this day I hear he wakes up in fits and sweats in the night,  just there's no mummy and daddy around to give him a cuddle....  most of the other kids have all grown up though, and realise that monsters under the bed aren't true.




LMAO.....Buster, you are way out with your 75 years ago.......You are in fantasy land with Cinderella, Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck......Perhaps when you get rid of your nappies and open your eyes you will see what is happening in the real world......In the meantime I suggest you get back into your cradle.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> That's because you've got the memory of a gold fish.
> 
> It's almost unfathomable that you cannot remember the mass protests led by the Tea Party against Obama in 2009.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests
> 
> And these conspiracy theories before and *after* his election:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories
> 
> I'm not sure how you can have a sook about protests against Trump,  but turn a blind eye to these.




Ves, I have read through those links but I failed to see any connection between the Tea Party and the Republicans..

The Tea Party appear to be a separate organization from the Republican Party...The Tea Party were protesting against Obama's tax policy and not his Presidential election..

Regarding Obama's American citizenship, it is something I know little about and cannot comment but I did read comments from many others who have thrown some doubt into birth place.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Regarding Obama's American citizenship, it is something I know little about and cannot comment but I did read comments from many others who have thrown some doubt into birth place.




Trump threw a lot of doubt on Obama's birthplace and then admitted it was all b.s. 

You just can't admit that your Right Wing hero is a flawed liar, who inherited his wealth, made massive losses and wrote them off on his tax, is as vindictive as they come and is about to tell the rest of the world to p.ss off and that may well include us.


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> Ves, I have read through those links but I failed to see any connection between the Tea Party and the Republicans..




You've got to be kidding me. 



> The tea party didn't get its man in Mitt Romney. But the movement got one of its ideological heroes in the Republican presidential ticket's No. 2 slot.
> 
> Romney's selection of Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan as his running mate marked a huge victory for the tea party. Its roaring influence helped Republicans take back the House in 2010, gaining 63 seats. Since then, its no-compromise positions on deep budget cuts set the parameters of high-profile fiscal fights on Capitol Hill.




https://www.yahoo.com/news/tea-party-gets-man-ryan-vice-president-073903869.html?ref=gs

(I assume the Associated Press is not considered to pinko for you)


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Ves, I have read through those links but I failed to see any connection between the Tea Party and the Republicans..



LOL.  I don't agree with the content of your comment but it actually doesn't matter.  They're an outfit that organised protests against the president.

Therefore your comment is irrelevant. The discussion is about whether there were protests against Obama's presidency.  There were.  It doesn't matter if they were linked to the Republicans or not.

It's inconsistent to condone protests against Trump,  but to ignore/agree with the protests against Obama.

It isn't even a question of political allegiance.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> No, but if a job is available(that they are qualified for) and they don't want it, should they get the dole?
> 
> 
> Who knows, but we don't seem to be doing well with manufacturing, they are offshoring.
> With miners, which find it easy to strip our above ground minerals, no one seems to want to charge them.
> 
> 
> 
> Welfare is a huge problem, that is why we have the boat people problem, Indonesia doesn't seem to be a place they wanted to settle.
> We have a system where the next generation pays for the last, it is braking down because the next generation won't have the jobs and are starting to take more welfare than the older generation. Add to that the amount of people arriving later in life, and qualifying for pensions after paying minimal tax, it all becomes onerous.
> Therefore the burden is placed on the middle class wage earner, they can't avoid tax, and they get angry.




Not all jobs are established or worth enough for people to drive a couple hours each way, or move their family, right?

Then for jobs far away with people willing to sell their home and move, are the unemployed person qualified for it?

So we can't just simply say that there are jobs out there, so they go get it. A lot of factors must be considered.

Like I was repeating what Maestro Greenspan was saying - that unemployment is by design. That as part of social and political engineering - all for the benefit of the owners of the country - certain percentage of people in the country have to be made poor and made unemployed.

You do this through cutting education funding, you only permit certain number of places; you only invest and fund projects of certain size, requiring certain skills. 

Then you ramp up the propaganda machine that says if you fail in life, it is all your fault. All of it. The gov't tried their best. That's not to say that an individual is blameless and should just sit around. But if we are to put the blame to either side, it rest at the feet of those in power - those whose job it is to either create jobs and lift their citizenry, or crush it.


----

Manufacturing is offshored, resources are not fairly taxed, "free trade" are signed everywhere... it's not for the benefit of the common folks. 

It's like the good old days where voters and politicians are lords and barons. So just because we get to play the game and tick the box, we shouldn't ask for too much if we stop there. I mean, VN's communist party allow people to vote too. The plebs there can't protest, but we can. for now anyway.

-----

Every body gets welfare. Just welfare is call something else for the rich and their corporations.

So payment to the poor and sick are call "welfare", "entitlements". 

Welfare to the rich are "subsidies", "security", "job creation", "incentives", "investment", "growth initiative".

A gov't is suppose to look after the welfare of all its people. What else is it there for? What are we paying taxes for?

So corporate welfare is fine, as long as it's not taking from the poor and give to the corporations. But that's what it is, but it's blamed on the poor.


If we want a better economy, it is better to just give money to the poor than to the rich.

the poor will spend it. Not on useless things, but spend it on a house, fix up the place; take a holiday they haven't had in a while; hire a few tradies, get their kids new clothes, get them a tutor or two etc. etc.

These kind of spending create demand, demand get business people interested to supply and so they hire people, invest in businesses they'll run etc.  Results in higher revenue to the ATO. Better standard of living for the masses; more small businesses with adequate jobs to put food on the table and maybe a couple of apprentices.

Giving it to those who are already well off and what would they do?
All that they would spend they already have. So excess cash will either go to gambling or financial speculation. Maybe that too create jobs, but just ain't that bang for your local buck.

We all know these stuff. Why it's not implemented is not within our pay packet.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> For a fella who questions history, you are pretty quick out of the blocks to accept the fenestrated version of the Colonial American, Louis 16 and Catherinian antagonists.
> 
> The Spanish Empire was well before Napoleon , as was the Industrial revolution and Empire in Britain, the French Louis, the Dutch, the Portugese, etc; all predating and flowing over 1783 by a couple of hundred years at least.
> 
> The 1812 war started because the US declared war on the UK in a grab for the Canadian territory while Britain was focused on French marching into Moscow. The Brits retaliated by invading the US with a peppercorn force. The yanks still make out they were the victims of a war declared by the poms and still celebrate the low act of the Battle of New Orleans where the far superior British army honouring the Treaty of Ghent had to fend off Andrew Jackson's deliberate blindness to the rules of war etiquette of the time. To the Brits the US was a sideshow that only deserved about 5% of it's military force to beat the US, which it did.




Yea alright. I guess it's a habit of empires to take over defenceless countries. 

Heard some guy on YouTube was saying Chris Columbus wrote in his diaries how nice the Haitians and natives are, so it's going to be so easy to take all their crap.

Is that true?


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Trump threw a lot of doubt on Obama's birthplace and then admitted it was all b.s.
> 
> You just can't admit that your Right Wing hero is a flawed liar, who inherited his wealth, made massive losses and wrote them off on his tax, is as vindictive as they come and is about to tell the rest of the world to p.ss off and that may well include us.




If you care to read and absorb the contents of that link, you will discover there were several others beside Trump who had doubts about his birth place....Maybe the truth will come out some time as to whether it is right or wrong.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> If you care to read and absorb the contents of that link, you will discover there were several others beside Trump who had doubts about his birth place....Maybe the truth will come out some time as to whether it is right or wrong.



If you're not going to believe the copy of his birth certificate that was released,  what would you actually believe?


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Yea alright. I guess it's a habit of empires to take over defenceless countries.
> 
> Heard some guy on YouTube was saying Chris Columbus wrote in his diaries how nice the Haitians and natives are, so it's going to be so easy to take all their crap.
> 
> Is that true?




Columbus put them all in to slavery. Spears and hammocks are no match for guns and armour. In the context of imperial Spain, he was probably one of the "friendlier" governors/conquistadors, compared to say Cortes or Nuno de Guzman. The black legend has been overdramatised, but Spain was a pretty brutal coloniser. The Portuguese were worse.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Trump threw a lot of doubt on Obama's birthplace and then admitted it was all b.s.
> 
> You just can't admit that your Right Wing hero is a flawed liar, who inherited his wealth, made massive losses and wrote them off on his tax, is as vindictive as they come and is about to tell the rest of the world to p.ss off and that may well include us.





*Donald Trump

Further information: Donald Trump  § Involvement in politics, 1988–2015

In March 2011, during an interview on Good Morning America, Donald Trump said he was seriously considering running for president, that he was a "little" skeptical of Obama's citizenship, and that someone who shares this view should not be so quickly dismissed as an "idiot" (as Trump considers the term "birther" to be "derogatory"[162]). Trump added, "Growing up no one knew him",[163] a claim ranked Pants-on-Fire by Politifact.[164] Later, Trump appeared on The View repeating several times that "I want him [Obama] to show his birth certificate." He speculated that "there’s something on that birth certificate that he doesn’t like", a comment which host Whoopi Goldberg described as "the biggest pile of dog mess I’ve heard in ages."[165] On the March 30, 2011, edition of CNN Newsroom, anchor Suzanne Malveaux commented on Trump's statements, pointing out that she had made a documentary for which she had gone to Hawaii and spoken with people who knew Obama as a child.[166][167] In an NBC TV interview broadcast on April 7, 2011, Trump said he would not let go of the issue, because he was not satisfied that Obama had proved his citizenship.[168] After Trump began making his views public, he was contacted by Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily, who was reportedly on the phone with Trump every day for a week, providing Trump with a "birther primer", answers to questions, and advice.[169] After Obama released his long-form birth certificate on April 27, 2011, Trump said "I am really honored and I am really proud, that I was able to do something that nobody else could do."[170]

On October 24, 2012, Trump offered to donate five million dollars to the charity of Obama's choice in return for the publication of his college and passport applications before October 31, 2012.[171]

On September 16, 2016, Trump stated "President Barack Obama was born in the United States. Period." Trump also repeated a false claim that Hillary Clinton (his opponent in the 2016 U.S. presidential election) had started the controversy concerning Obama's place of birth.[172]*

Did Trump ever receive the publication of Obama's college and pass port applications?

So what is the problem?


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> If you're not going to believe the copy of his birth certificate that was released,  what would you actually believe?




Well, from what I have read, it is quite easy to get an Hawaii birth certificate no matter where you were born.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Well, from what I have read, it is quite easy to get an Hawaii birth certificate no matter where you were born.



That sounds like a good opportunity.  In any of the places you have read this did you find anyone who could help get me one?


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> Well, from what I have read, it is quite easy to get an Hawaii birth certificate no matter where you were born.




Yeah I got a fake ID there no problem.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> Yeah I got a fake ID there no problem.




It is very easy to get a fake ID in many parts of the world if you are prepared to pay for it......It is rife in Ghana and Nigeria.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> Yeah I got a fake ID there no problem.



I see what you did there.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> I see what you did there.




 I'm glad someone got it.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Should have gone with Mohammed, imo.


----------



## Tisme

Ves said:


> If you're not going to believe the copy of his birth certificate that was released,  what would you actually believe?


----------



## Ves

Haha,  indeed a birth certificate that provides evidence to support the right-wing view that they want to be the truth.  And if one was found there certainly would be no questions on whether it was fake/illegal or not.


----------



## Tisme

What the Trump wall would traverse:

https://www.good.is/articles/what-t...d&tse_id=INF_810d74f0ad3a11e698611db1302aa2cb


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> What the Trump wall would traverse:
> 
> https://www.good.is/articles/what-t...d&tse_id=INF_810d74f0ad3a11e698611db1302aa2cb




Where there's a willing payer, there's a way.

If the Chinese could built theirs and have it protect them from the Barbarian hordes... oh wait. If the Chinese could do it, so can the greatest country in the world - and does it three times as high, twice as thick and 100 times more awesome.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Where there's a willing payer, there's a way.




There's no willing payer. Remember who's going to pay for it?


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Columbus put them all in to slavery. Spears and hammocks are no match for guns and armour. In the context of imperial Spain, he was probably one of the "friendlier" governors/conquistadors, compared to say Cortes or Nuno de Guzman. The black legend has been overdramatised, but Spain was a pretty brutal coloniser. The Portuguese were worse.




Dam. 

And to think that as a kid reading history at school, I thought these kind of guys were very admirable. Explorers and nation builders and what not. There's this kid's series on Great People and Columbus was one of them. 

And just in case it's what they teach in the lower schools, some famous historian in a serious book on Columbus was fawning over the guy - how he's a great man, great sailor and navigator.. .and oh yea, he kill a few million natives, but beside that, he's great.

Still remember reading how Captain Cook as killed and thought, dam savages, why did they kill a great man like that. bloody. 

And almost forgot Portugal being an imperial power. Man, I wouldn't be surprised if Luxemburg got a couple colonies too. 

Going to put Gibson's Apocalyto and Columbus' 1492 on the watch list.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> There's no willing payer. Remember who's going to pay for it?




Yea I was mucking around with Trump getting Mexico to pay for it.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Dam.
> 
> And to think that as a kid reading history at school, I thought these kind of guys were very admirable. Explorers and nation builders and what not. There's this kid's series on Great People and Columbus was one of them.
> 
> And just in case it's what they teach in the lower schools, some famous historian in a serious book on Columbus was fawning over the guy - how he's a great man, great sailor and navigator.. .and oh yea, he kill a few million natives, but beside that, he's great.
> 
> Still remember reading how Captain Cook as killed and thought, dam savages, why did they kill a great man like that. bloody.
> 
> And almost forgot Portugal being an imperial power. Man, I wouldn't be surprised if Luxemburg got a couple colonies too.
> 
> Going to put Gibson's Apocalyto and Columbus' 1492 on the watch list.




I think they have to be viewed in the context of when they were around. Columbus and Cortes were men of their times. Guzman was considered a scumbag even by his contemporaries.

Portugal owned the slave trade. We can get in to those stories, but they're not pretty.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> I think they have to be viewed in the context of when they were around. Columbus and Cortes were men of their times. Guzman was considered a scumbag even by his contemporaries.
> 
> Portugal owned the slave trade. We can get in to those stories, but they're not pretty.




I know what you mean, but they're still nasty people though.

I mean, Bush Jr. isn't wrong when he said that history will be kinder to him - you know, use the country's tragedy to lead it into wars, kill a bunch of people, bankrupt the country, threw an entire region into shiet... move back on his range and take up oil painting.

So some historian might just shrug and say, yeaaaa tens of millions ended up dying or dislocated, but it's for oil and Haliburton so what can he do. 

Yea, let's not get into the slave trade... i'm out of alcohol to numb the senses.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> I know what you mean, but they're still nasty people though.




Of course they are. Hey, if you're at a loose end over the weekend watch_ The Mission_. Not only does it have the best score ever but it's a great movie about South America during the conquest.


----------



## Tink

I mentioned removing History in the -

_Chaos in Australian Education
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=25851&page=6&p=918678&viewfull=1#post918678

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/09/dead-history/_
------------------------------------------------

Beautiful McLovin



-------------------------------------------------

The Post invited readers to share why they voted for Donald Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/opinions/trump-supporters-why-vote/?utm_term=.d5e1a81a8216


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I know what you mean, but they're still nasty people though.




luutzu, not withstanding what remnants of the French colonial penal system you have probably seen in Vietnam, the coffin sized cages stacked on top of each other, rising to several storeys in e.g. Louisiana are another level of cruelty again. The perps were laid flat in the cage and left there for all the world to see, deficating on each other from great heights, eating rotten food, etc.

But before everyone thinks the white man only picked on other people. Have some thought about Scolds Bridle, the Branks Bridle, etc thanks to the Puritans, via the Scots, that kept the women of the world in muted check and later the American colony slaves too.

In the 1600s American colonies the slave auction blocks included Virginia Tobacco Brides, Irish boys, Red Indians and Negros, Jews, etc. Anyone was slave material and treated severely by the paternal leaders, even their own were brutalised if they strayed the path.

Those are the good 'ol days that old men like to reminisce as being the lost behaviours of manhood.

I doubt any of us can fathom the depth of state sanctioned cruelty of the past, even including the convict era in Oz, and little wonder the advent of organised united labour unions in colonial Australia and industrial England and it being used as a vehicle to carry the socialist dogma.


----------



## noco

I can't believe it took the socialist ABC so long to join the Trump bashers and right from the top too.

And Jelly Mally does nothing about it.

Maybe Turnbull wants to stay on the good side of the left wing ABC in case things blow up with Abbott.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...g/news-story/95a5bce2c4f045a7d652e521c3bfad74


*The ABC is required by law to be impartial, in exchange for $1 billion a year of taxpayer funding. But Donald Trump has exposed the bias of a dozen ABC presenters, and now Liberal MPs are demanding action.  

This hijacking of the ABC must end.


Government MPs have called on ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie to explain why some of the public broadcaster’s top on-air *talent expressed views stridently against president-elect Donald Trump in the lead-up to his victory.

At least a dozen of the ABC’s high-profile radio and television presenters, including Insiders host Barrie Cassidy, PM host Mark Colvin and journalist Annabel Crabb, expressed their disdain for the “nightmare” of a Trump presidency and asked if there was an “off switch” for his campaign.

Former prime minister Tony Abbott slammed what he said was a public display of bias, showing the organisation didn’t reflect diverse views.

“The only diversity the ABC lacks is intellectual diversity,” he said. “No conservative listening to ‘our’ ABC’s current affairs programs could think that his or her views were getting a fair go...”

Cassidy posted on Twitter on the day of the election as results poured in that the “nightmare” of a Trump presidency had been defeated. “Trump cannot win. The nightmare is over,” he tweeted...

In October, he shared a link to an article saying Trump would lose the election, with the comment: “I reckon that part — that he’ll lose big time — is the only believable bit in the whole tawdry exercise.”

Paul Barry, host of the ABC’s Media Watch program, shared a link to an article ridiculing comments made by Trump with the remark: “Another ridiculous Trump porkie. And this man could be US president”.

Crabb wrote in mid-October: “Donald Trump makes his first post-debate appearance …. Where is the off switch for this campaign.”

Wendy Harmer, host of the ABC Sydney’s Mornings radio program, posted in response to an article with the headline ‘The four words that just lost Donald Trump the election: Hello, I’m Donald Trump”. “Shouldn’t be surprised, I guess,” she wrote last month, “that Trump’s ‘best’ joke was using his wife as a punchline. Humiliating.”

Joe O’Brien, who hosts ABC News 24’s morning news program, shared an article with the comment: “Yet another example of *Donald Trump’s reworking of *reality.”...

Former ABC chairman *Maurice Newman said the comments from an array of senior presenters meant the ABC should consider apologising for how it *reported on Trump’s campaign and victory...

Ms Guthrie must consider broadening her scope when seeking to diversify the ABC to include greater differences in opinion, Mr Newman said.

“She talks a lot about diversity, but she talks about ethnic diversity rather than diversity of *opinions,” he said.

“If you look at the current affairs and comedy programs, they all have a left-wing bias — it’s not just anecdotal, it’s demonstrable.”

The bias is not just inexcusable but unlawful. This is the Left misusing taxpayer funds to push their agenda.*

Control the media and you have control of the naÃ¯ve.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> I can't believe it took the socialist ABC so long to join the Trump bashers and right from the top too.
> 
> And Jelly Mally does nothing about it.
> 
> Maybe Turnbull wants to stay on the good side of the left wing ABC in case things blow up with Abbott.
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...g/news-story/95a5bce2c4f045a7d652e521c3bfad74
> 
> 
> *The ABC is required by law to be impartial, in exchange for $1 billion a year of taxpayer funding. But Donald Trump has exposed the bias of a dozen ABC presenters, and now Liberal MPs are demanding action.
> 
> This hijacking of the ABC must end.
> 
> 
> Government MPs have called on ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie to explain why some of the public broadcaster’s top on-air *talent expressed views stridently against president-elect Donald Trump in the lead-up to his victory.
> 
> At least a dozen of the ABC’s high-profile radio and television presenters, including Insiders host Barrie Cassidy, PM host Mark Colvin and journalist Annabel Crabb, expressed their disdain for the “nightmare” of a Trump presidency and asked if there was an “off switch” for his campaign.
> 
> Former prime minister Tony Abbott slammed what he said was a public display of bias, showing the organisation didn’t reflect diverse views.
> 
> “The only diversity the ABC lacks is intellectual diversity,” he said. “No conservative listening to ‘our’ ABC’s current affairs programs could think that his or her views were getting a fair go...”
> 
> Cassidy posted on Twitter on the day of the election as results poured in that the “nightmare” of a Trump presidency had been defeated. “Trump cannot win. The nightmare is over,” he tweeted...
> 
> In October, he shared a link to an article saying Trump would lose the election, with the comment: “I reckon that part ”” that he’ll lose big time ”” is the only believable bit in the whole tawdry exercise.”
> 
> Paul Barry, host of the ABC’s Media Watch program, shared a link to an article ridiculing comments made by Trump with the remark: “Another ridiculous Trump porkie. And this man could be US president”.
> 
> Crabb wrote in mid-October: “Donald Trump makes his first post-debate appearance …. Where is the off switch for this campaign.”
> 
> Wendy Harmer, host of the ABC Sydney’s Mornings radio program, posted in response to an article with the headline ‘The four words that just lost Donald Trump the election: Hello, I’m Donald Trump”. “Shouldn’t be surprised, I guess,” she wrote last month, “that Trump’s ‘best’ joke was using his wife as a punchline. Humiliating.”
> 
> Joe O’Brien, who hosts ABC News 24’s morning news program, shared an article with the comment: “Yet another example of *Donald Trump’s reworking of *reality.”...
> 
> Former ABC chairman *Maurice Newman said the comments from an array of senior presenters meant the ABC should consider apologising for how it *reported on Trump’s campaign and victory...
> 
> Ms Guthrie must consider broadening her scope when seeking to diversify the ABC to include greater differences in opinion, Mr Newman said.
> 
> “She talks a lot about diversity, but she talks about ethnic diversity rather than diversity of *opinions,” he said.
> 
> “If you look at the current affairs and comedy programs, they all have a left-wing bias ”” it’s not just anecdotal, it’s demonstrable.”
> 
> The bias is not just inexcusable but unlawful. This is the Left misusing taxpayer funds to push their agenda.*
> 
> Control the media and you have control of the naÃ¯ve.




Trump was and still is a nightmare. We just haven't woken up yet.


----------



## macca

SirRumpole said:


> Trump was and still is a nightmare. We just haven't woken up yet.




Trump is the democratically elected choice of the USA, the ABC should simply report the news and facts.

If you disagree with the democratic process, what would you replace it with ?


----------



## SirRumpole

macca said:


> Trump is the democratically elected choice of the USA, the ABC should simply report the news and facts.
> 
> If you disagree with the democratic process, what would you replace it with ?




The democratic process is that people can state their opinions whether you like them or not. Andrew Bolt and the shock jocks do it all the time.

As for the democratic process in the US, maybe they should hold the election at the weekend so that more people can turn out. As is it's biased against the poor working class who can't get the time off work to vote.


----------



## Tisme

Be interesting to see if Donald is an Anglospheric and how that would benefit us.


----------



## macca

SirRumpole said:


> The democratic process is that people can state their opinions whether you like them or not. Andrew Bolt and the shock jocks do it all the time.
> 
> As for the democratic process in the US, maybe they should hold the election at the weekend so that more people can turn out. As is it's biased against the poor working class who can't get the time off work to vote.




I have always found it odd that the USA has the election during the week, I also find it odd that they hold the biggest game of Footy during the week as well.


----------



## Tisme

macca said:


> I have always found it odd that the USA has the election during the week, I also find it odd that they hold the biggest game of Footy during the week as well.




Sunday is for worship and it takes a day for the horse and buggy to get to the polling booth after the Sabbath.


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> Sunday is for worship and it takes a day for the horse and buggy to get to the polling booth after the Sabbath.




That's right. It also needs to be in November so that the crop has been harvested, but winter hasn't arrived making roads impassable.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> That's right. It also needs to be in November so that the crop has been harvested, but winter hasn't arrived making roads impassable.




They don't want to upset the Amish voters obviously.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> They don't want to upset the Amish voters obviously.




Lol. Pretty much. It's all very out of date now. The Electoral College is a bit of a relic. The whole idea of not even requiring a popular vote is too.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Trump was and still is a nightmare. We just haven't woken up yet.




Rumpy, stop being a poor loser and accept the results...Time to stop the Trump bashing.....


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Rumpy, stop being a poor loser and accept the results...Time to stop the Trump bashing.....




Me ? Bashing ? 

Pot-kettle-black.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Me ? Bashing ?
> 
> Pot-kettle-black.




It is the Trump bashing after the event.....It has been Trump bashing before the event......What difference is it going to make now?

The election is over...live with it...get over it.

If he tears up that stupid Paris Climate Change agreement.....Good on him....We should do the same.

If he opens new coal mines....good on him...

If he is prepared to look after the middle class...good on him.

If he buries the Greens...good on him.

If he could  come over here and take charge of Australia...nothing would be better because the two hopeless leaders we have in charge of this country are as useful as tit$ on a bull...The country is going backwards.

Pauline Hanson for Prime Minister...the way to go....LOL.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Rumpy, stop being a poor loser and accept the results...Time to stop the Trump bashing.....




Trump sure like generals.

So far, the Trump appointees are Wall St titans for Treasury and economics; generals and racists for foreign affairs and national security. 

Heard Sarah Palin might also have a spot in the Cabinet. Then there's the son-in-law "considering" whether he likes some senior position.

In other news, hate crimes have spiked in the US; Current French gov't got around 4% approval rating; Merkel might lose the coming election.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Trump sure like generals.
> 
> So far, the Trump appointees are Wall St titans for Treasury and economics; generals and racists for foreign affairs and national security.
> 
> Heard Sarah Palin might also have a spot in the Cabinet. Then there's the son-in-law "considering" whether he likes some senior position.
> 
> In other news, hate crimes have spiked in the US; Current French gov't got around 4% approval rating; Merkel might lose the coming election.





And Trump will win again in 2020...Don't you worry about that....Pauline has gone from 5% to 12% since the last election......Labor and the LNP are $hi**ing themselves in Queensland.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Of course they are. Hey, if you're at a loose end over the weekend watch_ The Mission_. Not only does it have the best score ever but it's a great movie about South America during the conquest.





Thanks McLovin. Will definitely check it out.

I first saw a VHS copy of it in HS. It was The Mission or Flight of the Navigator and guess which one I went for. Completely forgot about this after that. Same director as the Killing Fields... so should be an eye opener.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> And Trump will win again in 2020...Don't you worry about that....Pauline has gone from 5% to 12% since the last election......Labor and the LNP are $hi**ing themselves in Queensland.




I'm a Capitalist so I don't really care who win the elections. They all work for people like me. Well... people with a lot more digits than my current balance, but you get the idea 

These are times that tries man's soul, as they say. So far we've screwed up big time... but there's hope. I mean, people are turning away from the News Corp. of the world for their news.


----------



## SirRumpole

"Voting system rigged"  said  Trump ? Yes Donald, you may well be right.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-1-3-million-from-voting-in-swing-states.html


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> "Voting system rigged"  said  Trump ? Yes Donald, you may well be right.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-1-3-million-from-voting-in-swing-states.html




Don't think for one moment the Democrats have clean hands....They are up to their eye balls in voting fraud.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...na-s-racist-voter-suppression-is-working.html


----------



## basilio

That was right clever Noco.  You respond to an article which details how the GOP systematically disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of black voters (who were gonna vote for the Democrats)....

...with another article that details how the GOP systematically disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of black voters. ( But say it was Democrat fraud..!)

And your addled point was ???


----------



## basilio

Another dangerous path of an incoming Trump administration .  What could be the consequences of a national registration of Muslims ?




> *'Reopening very old wounds': George Takei condemns Trump camp talks of internment*
> 
> George Takei
> 
> 
> New York: There is dangerous talk these days by those who have the ear of some at the highest levels of government.
> 
> Earlier this week, Carl Higbie, an outspoken Donald Trump surrogate and co-chair of Great America PAC, gave an interview with Megyn Kelly of Fox News. They were discussing the notion of a national Muslim registry, a controversial part of the Trump administration's national security plans, when Higbie dropped a bombshell: "We did it during World War II with Japanese, which, you know, call it what you will," he said.
> 
> Was he really citing the Japanese American internment, Kelly wanted to know, as grounds for treating Muslims the same way today? Higbie responded that he wasn't saying we should return to putting people in camps. But then he added, "There is precedent for it".
> 
> *Stop and consider these words. The internment was a dark chapter of American history, in which 120,000 people, including me and my family, lost our homes, our livelihoods, and our freedoms because we happened to look like the people who bombed Pearl Harbour.*



http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...camp-talks-of-internment-20161118-gssybj.html


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> That was right clever Noco.  You respond to an article which details how the GOP systematically disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of black voters (who were gonna vote for the Democrats)....
> 
> ...with another article that details how the GOP systematically disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of black voters. ( But say it was Democrat fraud..!)
> 
> And your addled point was ???




It was designed to stop fraud.

*Wheeldon, incidentally, has ties to North Carolina’s conservative Voter Integrity Project, which after three years of pursuing allegations of fraud—including showing up unannounced on doorsteps and sending repeated mailings on which to challenge voters—has yet to uncover a single one. The Voter Integrity Project also recently accused Democrats of “raping the ‘Retard’ vote.”*


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> luutzu, not withstanding what remnants of the French colonial penal system you have probably seen in Vietnam, the coffin sized cages stacked on top of each other, rising to several storeys in e.g. Louisiana are another level of cruelty again. The perps were laid flat in the cage and left there for all the world to see, deficating on each other from great heights, eating rotten food, etc.
> 
> But before everyone thinks the white man only picked on other people. Have some thought about Scolds Bridle, the Branks Bridle, etc thanks to the Puritans, via the Scots, that kept the women of the world in muted check and later the American colony slaves too.
> 
> In the 1600s American colonies the slave auction blocks included Virginia Tobacco Brides, Irish boys, Red Indians and Negros, Jews, etc. Anyone was slave material and treated severely by the paternal leaders, even their own were brutalised if they strayed the path.
> 
> Those are the good 'ol days that old men like to reminisce as being the lost behaviours of manhood.
> 
> I doubt any of us can fathom the depth of state sanctioned cruelty of the past, even including the convict era in Oz, and little wonder the advent of organised united labour unions in colonial Australia and industrial England and it being used as a vehicle to carry the socialist dogma.




I haven't look up French enlightenment in the colonies (not like some sicko, ha ha). But did stumble across a few images of pikes full of ponytailed skulls in Indochina. That and one where, I'm guessing, a rebel was still kneeling but his head was in mid-air as another Viet swoosh it off. I was in year 6 or so.. .and it might explain a lot of my mental health 

I'm not sure if I'm a racist or not, but it rubs me the wrong way watching those old interviews where former VNese leaders discuss the VN War in French. I mean, they were all living in France and was being interviewed by what seems like a French crew.. but still, they're suppose to represent their country's and people's perspective but they spoke in French, like it's a high cultured thing to do.

Yea, you White people aren't the only ones of genocidal and sadistic traits. Just you've had a lot of practice on each other prior to Columbus getting lost and landed in his version of India; then decided to use the experience on people with less practice.

I guess the Chinese are somewhat relieved that their second Ming Emperor died and left the state almost bankrupted before he and his successors had their chance of figuring out what to do with Admiral Zheng's maps and diaries on this various voyages of "exploration".

-------

The more I know, the more convinced I am that race and culture play very little in the barbarism and warmongering side of people. All people want peace and be left alone. That in every culture, there's always that special breed of psychos at the helm that thought it'd be cool to go to war and burn the place down. 

I guess that's why great efforts are being put towards breaking up civil solidarity and economic stability for the plebs. Can't freaking wage wars and kill people thousands of miles away if the plebs aren't roused to anger and hate.

That's why Democratic and social institutions are slowly being dismantled.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The more I know, the more convinced I am that race and culture play very little in the barbarism and warmongering side of people. All people want peace and be left alone. That in every culture, there's always that special breed of psychos at the helm that thought it'd be cool to go to war and burn the place down.




Culture has a lot to play in the scheme of things. It took two world wars for the Japs to get over their cruel feudal chains, the Germans to grow up, the Australians to start realising we are actually a fair closer to Asian shores than British.

We still derive of cues from the Anglosphere that is predicated on the rule of law. Out constitution draws heavily on the American version, which drew heavily on the English precedence laws & some French non canons etc. My feel is that we are actually recentering back a few decades when the USA, UK, Oz, Canada and NZ would tend to ping people for not behaving :- the era of kumbaya is getting a shakeup.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Culture has a lot to play in the scheme of things. It took two world wars for the Japs to get over their cruel feudal chains, the Germans to grow up, the Australians to start realising we are actually a fair closer to Asian shores than British.
> 
> We still derive of cues from the Anglosphere that is predicated on the rule of law. Out constitution draws heavily on the American version, which drew heavily on the English precedence laws & some French non canons etc. My feel is that we are actually recentering back a few decades when the USA, UK, Oz, Canada and NZ would tend to ping people for not behaving :- the era of kumbaya is getting a shakeup.




I bet you often find yourself in a discussion where you're the only one doing the talking. What's "the era of kumbaya"? Got to google that kind of stuff.

I thought the Japs got more cocky during [before?] WW1 where they sank the mighty Czar's battleship? Then it took a couple of nukes, and a whole lot of firebombs prior as illustration, of what civility is all about?

So aren't all those examples of yours illustration of what defeat will do to the weaken, overstretched military? That it's the same across all cultures - be them the White and pure Aryans, or the Whitish/Yellowish and pure Japanese?

Other cultures have established rules of law long before the AngloSaxon barbarians got into the act McGee. Pretty sure the Arabs got their Code long before the Greeks, who pass it to the Romans who pass it to the eventually more superior Europeans.

In China, Lord Shang in the State of Ch'in established their legal code some 600BC. Putting the law above everything and everyone, even above the King and Royalties. He showed it by cutting the nose off of the King's brother's... Once his patron king died, Lord Shang got torn into five pieces but yea, laws were established.

See, you really should question a few truth in them Colonial school textbooks.


----------



## luutzu




----------



## noco

Maybe a bit off topic but Ruz Ward, the instigator of the Marxist Safe School program, decided that BULLYING is OK after all as she was filmed ripping off  a Trump Cap from a Trump supporter...... 


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...r/news-story/30a6bc421961222662d8bb9a13a8d963


*Marxist Roz Ward, who helped to inflict the "safe schools" program on state schools, is beyond satire.


This morning I wrote thatTrump supporters need safe spaces from bigoted and intolerant Leftists:


CAN Trump supporters please have a “safe space”, too? Some place where they won’t be bullied and have their Trump cap ripped off their head?

It turns out that they need a safe space from "Safe Schools" Ward:


Victoria’s controversial Safe Schools founder Roz Ward has been photographed harassing a bystander while marching in a Melbourne rally protesting against the election of Donald Trump as US president.

Images obtained by The Australian show the high-profile LGBTI rights and anti-bullying campaigner trying to remove a cap from a man wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with “Trump 2016”.

Ms Ward, who is carrying *several copies of the Marxist newspaper Red Flag, is seen smirking while the distressed man tries to pull away and shield himself from her.

The incident, which took part at an otherwise peaceful protest organised by the Monash Student Association on November 12, comes after Ms Ward recently spoke out about “concerted *attacks” on the Safe Schools prog*ram and her character.*


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> Maybe a bit off topic but Ruz Ward, the instigator of the Marxist Safe School program, decided that BULLYING is OK after all as she was filmed ripping off  a Trump Cap from a Trump supporter......
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...r/news-story/30a6bc421961222662d8bb9a13a8d963
> 
> 
> *Marxist Roz Ward, who helped to inflict the "safe schools" program on state schools, is beyond satire.
> 
> 
> This morning I wrote thatTrump supporters need safe spaces from bigoted and intolerant Leftists:
> 
> 
> CAN Trump supporters please have a “safe space”, too? Some place where they won’t be bullied and have their Trump cap ripped off their head?
> 
> It turns out that they need a safe space from "Safe Schools" Ward:
> 
> 
> Victoria’s controversial Safe Schools founder Roz Ward has been photographed harassing a bystander while marching in a Melbourne rally protesting against the election of Donald Trump as US president.
> 
> Images obtained by The Australian show the high-profile LGBTI rights and anti-bullying campaigner trying to remove a cap from a man wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with “Trump 2016”.
> 
> Ms Ward, who is carrying *several copies of the Marxist newspaper Red Flag, is seen smirking while the distressed man tries to pull away and shield himself from her.
> 
> The incident, which took part at an otherwise peaceful protest organised by the Monash Student Association on November 12, comes after Ms Ward recently spoke out about “concerted *attacks” on the Safe Schools prog*ram and her character.*




It's amazing how you drink from Bolt's toilet so unquestionably, but believe everything else is biased, Commie BS.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> It's amazing how you drink from Bolt's toilet so unquestionably, but believe everything else is biased, Commie BS.




Wow..That is pretty strong language you have used there.

Did Bolt take the photo?......I don't think so.

My oh my how the truth hurts you lefties.

I know it is so hard for you to accept the facts so, you, in true Socialist fashion revert to character assassination in the Fabian indoctrinated way......You obviously don't know any better.

I do hope you read the comments from readers. ......You will probably say they drink from the same toilet....OMG...you really are something aren't you?


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> Wow..That is pretty strong language you have used there.
> 
> Did Bolt take the photo?......I don't think so.
> 
> My oh my how the truth hurts you lefties.
> 
> I know it is so hard for you to accept the facts so, you, in true Socialist fashion revert to character assassination in the Fabian indoctrinated way......You obviously don't know any better.
> 
> I do hope you read the comments from readers. ......You will probably say they drink from the same toilet....OMG...you really are something aren't you?




I know he didn't take the photo. Was he there?

Drink up, old bean.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> I know he didn't take the photo. Was he there?
> 
> Drink up, old bean.




Troll feeding only makes them fatter I've found, then they fart more.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Troll feeding only makes them fatter I've found, *then they fart more*.




Is that possible?


----------



## Tink

The Andrews Government has lost the plot in Victoria, and hopefully he is the next one to be shipped out.


----------



## MrBurns

Tink said:


> The Andrews Government has lost the plot in Victoria, and hopefully he is the next one to be shipped out.




He never had the plot and the sooner he is ejected the better, how do these creeps ever get elected in the first place ?


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> The Andrews Government has lost the plot in Victoria, and hopefully he is the next one to be shipped out.





He's a dud Tink?


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> He's a dud Tink?




He's Labor, end of story.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Troll feeding only makes them fatter I've found, then they fart more.




That troll would have us believe Ward  from "Father Knows Best",  Steve from "My Three Sons" and John from "Lost in Space" were all fabianista socialist by the yard stick it uses. Apart from being archaic paternalistic remnants of  extreme right wing McCarthyism, the fact that they showed care for others is enough to see the real truth they were pinko commo infiltrators tearing at the fabric of US capitalist society.

Charity in thought and deed is another hallmark of anti society.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> That troll would have us believe Ward  from "Father Knows Best",  Steve from "My Three Sons" and John from "Lost in Space" were all fabianista socialist by the yard stick it uses. Apart from being archaic paternalistic remnants of  extreme right wing McCarthyism, the fact that they showed care for others is enough to see the real truth they were pinko commo infiltrators tearing at the fabric of US capitalist society.
> 
> Charity in thought and deed is another hallmark of anti society.




And the corollary, the more debauched you are the better, as long as you hate the same people that the troll hates.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> He's Labor, end of story.




Off topic....get back to the thread.

:topic


----------



## basilio

One place Donald Trump can take himself and his company is into the stratosphere as one of the richest tycoons in history.

Trump enterprises are a billion dollar world wide empire with potential interests everywhere. Given that he has refused to remove himself from his busness dealings you can bet there will be some exceptionally profitable deals offered to POTUS.


> * How President Trump could use the White House to enrich himself and his family*
> 
> Trevor Potter
> 
> 59 reading now
> 
> 
> 
> For the past 40 years, every president has placed his personal investments and assets in a blind trust while in the White House, or has sold everything and held cash equivalents.
> 
> President-elect Donald Trump has made it clear that he does not plan to set up such a trust, which would require that his company be run by an outsider who has had no previous business relationship with Trump, and that there
> Trump is not required by law to create a blind trust or otherwise divest himself of all business holdings, though many people who will work for him in the government will have to do so. The 1978 Ethics in Government Act exempts the president and vice-president from its conflict of interest provisions, out of constitutional concerns about separation of powers.
> 
> So Trump says he plans to continue to personally own the Trump Organisation, a multibillion-dollar company with business interests around the world, but three of his adult children will operate the firm while he's in office. This is a colossal mistake. It will produce conflicts of interest of an unprecedented magnitude, and create the appearance that he and his family are using his office to enrich themselves, even if they don't take advantage of the many opportunities to do so that this situation presents. These conflicts will stain and haunt Trump's presidency, unless he changes course.
> 
> ...Trevor Potter is the president of the Campaign Legal Centre and a Republican former chairman of the Federal Election Commission.




http://www.smh.com.au/business/comm...h-himself-and-his-family-20161120-gstpc2.html


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Off topic....get back to the thread.
> 
> :topic




Ott topic. The thread is about Trump not Daniel Andrews.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Ott topic. The thread is about Trump not Daniel Andrews.




Yea! None of that circle of life business.


----------



## dutchie

Just in case you need to check....


----------



## Tisme

The Rolling Stones do not endorse Donald Trump. You Can’t Always Get What You Want was used without the band’s permission,” the group said on Twitter.

In May, the group upbraided Trump for using their song “Start Me Up” in his campaign.

“The Rolling Stones have never given permission to the Trump campaign to use their songs and have requested that they cease all use immediately,” a spokesman for the band said at the time.

A growing chorus of musicians ”” including Adele, Queen’s Brian May and Aerosmith yowler Steven Tyler ”” have complained about Trump using their music in his bid for the White House.

On Thursday, after “Here Comes the Sun” was played as Ivanka Trump took the stage at the convention, the estate of composer George Harrison tore into Trump, tweeting, “The unauthorized use of #HereComestheSun at the #RNCinCLE is offensive & against the wishes of the George Harrison estate … If it had been Beware of Darkness, then we MAY have approved it!”

http://www.thewrap.com/rolling-stones-lash-out-at-donald-trump-again-over-song-use/


----------



## michael1992

basilio said:


> People, the media, other politicians keep talking of Donald Trump as a trainwreck.  An ever cascading litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches.
> 
> But perhaps its really a train ride with The Trump firmly sitting  up front as the Republican preferred candidate despite* or because of the  "litany of outrageous statements, policy proposals, firebrand speeches."*
> 
> So where could this train ride take the US and us (the rest of the world) ?
> 
> Some background to his body of work and the current response from other politicians
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-anti-muslim-ban-world-reacts
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...p-muslim-ban-backlash-jeb-bush-chris-christie
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/republicans-donald-trump-muslims-election-2016
> 
> There is also one excellent psychological observation of how well Donald Trump works his audience.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-rally-psychology-humor-fear





The winning of presidential election is itself a big question as he don't won the popular vote electoral college voted for him ok. that leads to the question why he won?

First, he won because most of the white people supporting him thinks that due to immigration and inflow of aliens they will become a minority in their own country and then they might be neglected with basic rights and freedom as the incoming people don't have the same perception.

 Second, he was outspoken about the wall and muslim ban which are not only illogical but impossible to implement. 

and if you were to ask what is the strategy behind it and how he is gonna do it? he won't be able to answer it because deep down inside he himself knows that it is impossible.

Now you might be thinking, Now what? He is already elected what he will do to U.S? The answer to that question is: I don't thinks he will be able to change much of the policies because now he is the execution state. The proposed plan requires dedicated resources which are already scarce. As a result he won't be able to make much changes U.S policies.


----------



## Tisme

michael1992 said:


> The winning of presidential election is itself a big question as he don't won the popular vote electoral college voted for him ok. that leads to the question why he won?
> 
> First, he won because most of the white people supporting him thinks that due to immigration and inflow of aliens they will become a minority in their own country and then they might be neglected with basic rights and freedom as the incoming people don't have the same perception.
> 
> Second, he was outspoken about the wall and muslim ban which are not only illogical but impossible to implement.
> 
> and if you were to ask what is the strategy behind it and how he is gonna do it? he won't be able to answer it because deep down inside he himself knows that it is impossible.
> 
> Now you might be thinking, Now what? He is already elected what he will do to U.S? The answer to that question is: I don't thinks he will be able to change much of the policies because now he is the execution state. The proposed plan requires dedicated resources which are already scarce. As a result he won't be able to make much changes U.S policies.




Our Prime Minister heads our country by leading a political party that only garnered 28.67% of the vote. The largest block of votes was the ALP at 34.73%.


----------



## McLovin

McLovin said:


> It's pretty awful, and as much as I dislike Clinton the thought of Trump being President actually scares me. It will have real consequences for Australia.




Starting......now.



> Donald Trump risks opening up a major diplomatic dispute with China before he has even been inaugurated after speaking on the phone on Friday with Tsai Ying-wen, the president of Taiwan.
> 
> The telephone call, confirmed by three people, is believed to be the first between a US president or president-elect and a leader of Taiwan since diplomatic relations between the two were cut in 1979.
> 
> Although it is not clear if the Trump transition team intended the conversation to signal a broader change in US policy towards Taiwan, the call is likely to infuriate Beijing which regards the island as a renegade province.
> 
> The US has adopted the so-called “One China” policy since 1972 after the Nixon-Mao meetings and in 1978 President Jimmy Carter formally recognised Beijing as the sole government of China, with the US embassy closing in Taipei the year after.
> 
> The Trump team did not respond to multiple requests for comment.
> 
> “The Chinese leadership will see this as a highly provocative action, of historic proportions,” said Evan Medeiros, former Asia director at the White House national security council.
> 
> “Regardless if it was deliberate or accidental, this phone call will fundamentally change China’s perceptions of Trump’s strategic intentions for the negative. With this kind of move, Trump is setting a foundation of enduring mistrust and strategic competition for US-China relations.”




https://www.ft.com/content/fd19907e-b8d4-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

That's not a boat that needs to be rocked.


----------



## CanOz

This is not good.....China won't be happy about this and it will certainly result in a souring of relations.


----------



## dutchie

Trump is draining the swamp alright, but he is replacing it with his own. (ho hum)


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> This is not good.....China won't be happy about this and it will certainly result in a souring of relations.




China won't be happy?  That's bloody tough **** for them.

The whole world tip-toes around China like they're going to explode if anyone stands up to them.  I'm very happy Trump has the balls to confront them and call them out on the way they do business.  All the other world leaders kow tow to them because 1) there's money there and 2) they're scared of their bully tactics.  The Communist party has only ever looked after its its own interests, and they've done that by being very manipulative and secretive - so let's see how they manage when someone calls their hand.  The Party hierarchy will be quietly sh1tting itself, because honesty and openness is not part of their M.O.  Trump's unfiltered speech and open attitude would terrify them.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> China won't be happy?  That's bloody tough **** for them.
> 
> The whole world tip-toes around China like they're going to explode if anyone stands up to them.  I'm very happy Trump has the balls to confront them and call them out on the way they do business.  All the other world leaders kow tow to them because 1) there's money there and 2) they're scared of their bully tactics.  The Communist party has only ever looked after its its own interests, and they've done that by being very manipulative and secretive - so let's see how they manage when someone calls their hand.  The Party hierarchy will be quietly sh1tting itself, because honesty and openness is not part of their M.O.  Trump's unfiltered speech and open attitude would terrify them.




Plus the fact that Taiwan has been unfairly on the outer from the rest of the world for decades. They don't even have a seat in the UN. That's a country with the population of Australia, and we insist on lecturing the rest of the world with our "values".


----------



## Gringotts Bank

SirRumpole said:


> Plus the fact that Taiwan has been unfairly on the outer from the rest of the world for decades. They don't even have a seat in the UN. That's a country with the population of Australia, and we insist on lecturing the rest of the world with our "values".




It's like those stories you hear about abusive relationships.  

"I saw you on the phone.  Who were you speaking to?  It was Trump wasn't it?  WASN'T IT?"  

Exactly the same dynamic.

If the commies had their way, the OneChina policy would extend far beyond their illegal grabbing of territory in the South China Sea.  The heavy-handed 'push, build, arm and occupy'.  And everyone in the region knows this.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> It's like those stories you hear about abusive relationships.
> 
> "I saw you on the phone.  Who were you speaking to?  It was Trump wasn't it?  WASN'T IT?"
> 
> Exactly the same dynamic.
> 
> If the commies had their way, the OneChina policy would extend far beyond their illegal grabbing of territory in the South China Sea.  And everyone in the region knows that.




Not sure about you, but I'm not interested in a cold war, or trade war (or hot war) with China, or anyone else....:bad: Its bad for the world economy, Australia's economy and just plain bad news! Tensions are already tight enough in the Asian region...What the US has done is not a diplomatic path...


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> Not sure about you, but I'm not interested in a cold war, or trade war (or hot war) with China, or anyone else....:bad: Its bad for the world economy, Australia's economy and just plain bad news! Tensions are already tight enough in the Asian region...What the US has done is not a diplomatic path...




I definitely don't want that.  But when bullies appear on the scene, sometimes another bully is needed to sit them on their asre.  

It's not diplomatic, but what about when the Chinese start extending their South China Sea boundaries?  When they just keep creeping outwards, secretively occupying new islands and atolls, then building military bases on them?  That has to be stopped and there is absolutely no way an Australian politician would have the balls to say 'no' to that.  Aus politicians would be more likely to say "oh here... build a military base in the Darwin port!  We have farmland too... would you like that?  We sorta need the money because we can't manage our finances".


----------



## McLovin

CanOz said:


> Not sure about you, but I'm not interested in a cold war, or trade war (or hot war) with China, or anyone else....:bad: Its bad for the world economy, Australia's economy and just plain bad news! Tensions are already tight enough in the Asian region...What the US has done is not a diplomatic path...




Me neither. There's already enough problems in the SCS. That situation needs diplomacy. Opening up an old wound by reaching out to Taiwan will just make the Chinese more recalcitrant wrt the SCS.

Taiwan-China relations had actually been improving in recent years. The PRC has been pretty pragmatic about it.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Like the way Assad and ISIS were allowed to run riot because no one would stand up to them?  ... ending in a refugee crisis of *millions *of people and the degradation of Europe??

Sometimes you need someone with guts to make the hard decisions.  If the UN (for example) were allowed to use force, they could have saved so many lives and so much suffering.

Bullies just continue until someone stops them.  There might be diplomatic ways to do this, but that's for another thread.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> Like the way Assad and ISIS were allowed to run riot because no one would stand up to them?  ... ending in a refugee crisis of *millions *of people and the degradation of Europe??




No. Totally different.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

McLovin said:


> No. Totally different.




End result is similar.  The Chinese way of war is to appear peaceful, breed like crazy and force massive numbers into surrounding countries.  When you constitute a majority, and sufficient numbers of your ilk are in positions of power, you own the country.  The zillions of people in the lower classes are grinding away, keeping the machine running, and all they get is a bowl of rice and promise of wealth.  If Trump really wanted to upset the apple cart, he'd let the lower classes know they're being used.  [Or he could open the borders to Chinese factory workers and offer them US wages.  haha :]


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> I definitely don't want that.  But when bullies appear on the scene, sometimes another bully is needed to sit them on their asre.
> 
> It's not diplomatic, but what about when the Chinese start extending their South China Sea boundaries?  When they just keep creeping outwards, secretively occupying new islands and atolls, then building military bases on them?  That has to be stopped and there is absolutely no way an Australian politician would have the balls to say 'no' to that.  Aus politicians would be more likely to say "oh here... build a military base in the Darwin port!  We have farmland too... would you like that?  We sorta need the money because we can't manage our finances".





See here for how many bases the US have around the world: about 800. 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321#ixzz3howbepPo


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> See here for how many bases the US have around the world: about 800.
> 
> http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321#ixzz3howbepPo




Hopefully Trump will close up a lot of these.  I think he's interested in withdrawing from the role of 'US as the world's police', isn't he?  Saving money to put into local projects?  Would make sense.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> Hopefully Trump will close up a lot of these.  I think he's interested in withdrawing from the role of 'US as the world's police', isn't he?  Saving money to put into local projects?  Would make sense.




Are you listening to yourself?


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Hopefully Trump will close up a lot of these.  I think he's interested in withdrawing from the role of 'US as the world's police', isn't he?  Saving money to put into local projects?  Would make sense.




He did say the US became weak under Obama; that the Russians are way ahead in nuclear weapons.

Look at the guys he's putting in charge of the Pentagon and intelligence agencies. Generals and... more generals. 

Obama has more continuous wars under his entire administration than any other US president in history. He expanded the drone programme that takes out suspected terrorist instead of torturing them for info - I guess they know everything now anyway and human rights belong to someone who's not droned?

If Obama is "weak", god help us when Trump sets out to Make America Strong Again (TM).



----
So they're spending $US100B on bases; about $200B if you count bases and soldiers.  That's per year... but they can't connect pipes for clean drinking water to their cities? And just a few days ago their people are protesting across some 352 cities to fight for $15 an hour.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> End result is similar.  The Chinese way of war is to appear peaceful, breed like crazy and force massive numbers into surrounding countries.  ]




Like a lot of the Chinese  immigrants now in this country. The ones that protest against our opposition to Chinese expansionism.


----------



## CanOz

> End result is similar. The Chinese way of war is to appear peaceful, breed like crazy and force massive numbers into surrounding countries. ]





Hmmm no...The Chinese I personally know here, quite a few too, despise the leadership in China...


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> So they're spending $US100B on bases; about $200B if you count bases and soldiers.  That's per year




Big savings to be had by withdrawing some/most of that.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> Hopefully Trump will close up a lot of these.  I think he's interested in withdrawing from the role of 'US as the world's police', isn't he?  Saving money to put into local projects?  Would make sense.




So you expect someone to stand up to China, but America should withdraw from the region. That doesn't seem awfully well thought out.

For some context on what these bases actually cost...



> Q: How many troops does the U.S. have in Japan and Korea?
> 
> A: Approximately 54,000 military personnel, 42,000 dependents, and 800 civil-service employees work at 85 facilities in Japan, according to U.S. Forces, Japan spokesman John Severns. In addition, the bases employ 25,500 Japanese nationals who work as clerks, firefighters, doctors and the like. There are about 28,500 U.S. troops in South Korea.
> 
> Q: How much does the U.S. presence in Japan cost the U.S. each year?
> 
> A: *Including personnel costs, the U.S. is set to spend roughly $5.5 billion on its Japan presence in the year beginning Oct. 1, 2016, *according to President Barack Obama’s budget proposal released in February.
> 
> Q: Does Japan pay anything for the bases?
> 
> A: Yes. Japan’s budget for the year that began April 1 includes  ¥192 billion ($1.7 billion) in direct support for the bases. Tokyo covers more than 90% of the cost of the 25,500 Japanese nationals working at the bases and most of the utility costs. In addition, it pays for other costs arising from the U.S. presence such as rent for private and public land used by the bases as well as noise abatement and other measures to help people living nearby. Altogether, the Japanese budget includes  ¥450 billion ($4 billion) of base-related expenses.
> 
> Q: How much does South Korea pay for the bases and why are they there?
> 
> A: *South Korea paid around $866.6 million in 2014 for the U.S. military presence in the country, according to the South Korean government, around 40% of total cost. *The U.S. maintains its presence there to counter North Korea, which has been boosting its strategic military capabilities against the U.S. and its Asia allies by conducting atomic-bomb tests and missile launches.




http://www.wsj.com/articles/q-a-how-much-do-u-s-military-bases-in-japan-and-korea-cost-1461822624

Seems a pretty small price to pay to keep peace between your biggest creditor and biggest trade partners.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> Are you listening to yourself?




I contradicted myself only a little bit.  

I'd support the withdrawal of most US bases worldwide, whilst retaining a presence in SE Asia which is just strong enough to halt China, but not strong enough to provoke conflict.  China should never be allowed to become the World's dominant country, for obvious reasons.  At least not until democracy emerges.

There's a PLU bias in what I say.  But we all have the PLU bias.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'd support the withdrawal of most US bases worldwide, whilst retaining a presence in SE Asia which is just strong enough to halt China, but not strong enough to provoke conflict.




For obvious historical reasons, the US have no bases in SE Asia. So there's no presence to retain.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> So you expect someone to stand up to China, but America should withdraw from the region. That doesn't seem awfully well thought out.
> .




Just maybe Trump could broker a reconcilliation between Taiwan and the PRC. It doesn't necessarily have to be conflict based. Basically China needs to be taken down a peg but it could improve its PR image by giving some ground on areas like Taiwan and the South China Sea. 

Whether the dinosaurs in the People's Congress see it that way is another matter. The US would be silly to push too hard militarily , but trade is a weapon too.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> For obvious historical reasons, the US have no bases in SE Asia. So there's no presence to retain.




Maybe not bases, but "lily pads" for sure.

Burma just got flipped over to the US a few years ago - the comrades don't like that too much and are working with the opposition to try and fix that situation. They need to as Burma's an important access in case the "China" seas get blockaded.

Seems Burma is going to be the first to get screwed if the US goes to war with China. 

Then there's Singapore, a few advisors in the Philippines and Thailand. The Kingdom of Brunei - which implemented Sharia Law recently - is also a friend.

Not sure about Indonesia given its recent experience with US backed Suharto.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Just maybe Trump could broker a reconcilliation between Taiwan and the PRC. It doesn't necessarily have to be conflict based. Basically China needs to be taken down a peg but it could improve its PR image by giving some ground on areas like Taiwan and the South China Sea.
> 
> Whether the dinosaurs in the People's Congress see it that way is another matter. The US would be silly to push too hard militarily , but trade is a weapon too.




Once China consolidate its presence in the South and East China seas, they'll own Taiwan. It's based on the ancient game of Go - where, I'm guessing, the aim is to surround and fence in territories. Once you fence it in, it's yours.

So China's plan is to take pretty much the entire of S.E Asia. They probably will not do it through war or direct conflict, would do it through trade and a lot of carrots... but they'd be damned if they let the US or any other major power have any influence on SE Asia.

Can't really blame them... as far as geopolitics goes. For one, when European/Japanese powers colonise Asia, it was just a small steps into China's own terroritories; then it was a matter time before a few Chinese cities and ports have to be surrendered to the barbarians.

Then there's the Japanese invasion of WW2.

Then there's the clear example playing out in Europe between NATO and Russia since the 90s. Gave the enemy an inch and soon they're on your borders. 

The US have to really learn to give people their living space. You can't push people and chain them in like that. I guess the US doesn't care too much since any wars fought would be on other people's front yard... but man, we Aussies are going to be screwed.

For one, trade with China, and probably most of Asia, will be down to diddly. Two, where's the nearest place for China to refuel and load up on iron, steel and water?


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Once China consolidate its presence in the South and East China seas, they'll own Taiwan. It's based on the ancient game of Go - where, I'm guessing, the aim is to surround and fence in territories. Once you fence it in, it's yours.
> 
> So China's plan is to take pretty much the entire of S.E Asia. They probably will not do it through war or direct conflict, would do it through trade and a lot of carrots... but they'd be damned if they let the US or any other major power have any influence on SE Asia.
> 
> Can't really blame them... as far as geopolitics goes. For one, when European/Japanese powers colonise Asia, it was just a small steps into China's own terroritories; then it was a matter time before a few Chinese cities and ports have to be surrendered to the barbarians.
> 
> Then there's the Japanese invasion of WW2.
> 
> Then there's the clear example playing out in Europe between NATO and Russia since the 90s. Gave the enemy an inch and soon they're on your borders.
> 
> The US have to really learn to give people their living space. You can't push people and chain them in like that. I guess the US doesn't care too much since any wars fought would be on other people's front yard... but man, we Aussies are going to be screwed.
> 
> For one, trade with China, and probably most of Asia, will be down to diddly. Two, where's the nearest place for China to refuel and load up on iron, steel and water?





If only they weren't damned Commies things would be fine.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> If only they weren't damned Commies things would be fine.




I bet the Pentagon thought the same too 

Scorched an entire city then call it peace, as some cry baby Poms complains of the Romans.


----------



## luutzu

Conflict of interests.


----------



## DB008

1) Trump calls a democratically elected leader, brutal dictatorship loses their minds. Let that sink in.

2) Obama sold some 1.8Billion dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, nothing was said about that.


----------



## SirRumpole

DB008 said:


> 1) Trump calls a democratically elected leader, brutal dictatorship loses their minds. Let that sink in.
> 
> 2) Obama sold some 1.8Billion dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, nothing was said about that.




Actually I think they called him.


----------



## CanOz

DB008 said:


> 1) Trump calls a democratically elected leader, brutal dictatorship loses their minds. Let that sink in.
> 
> 2) Obama sold some 1.8Billion dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, nothing was said about that.





Spending too much time on social media DB?


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:


> 2) Obama sold some 1.8Billion dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, nothing was said about that.




Because arms sales are well established.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwan


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I've witnessed the complete 'Chinafication' of a suburb here in Melbourne.  Once where there was a sense of unity and Australian-ness, now there's a very clear demarcation and division.  Those who live in the 'Chinafied' area speak Chinese and maintain Chinese culture.  Horrible.

All cultures do the same.  Think of the Aussie takeover of Bali.  Pushing their drinking culture and boorish ways onto the local population.  Of course not all Aussie travelers do that, but there's enough of it happening that it upsets the Indos.  

Cultures should not mix to any great degree.  It's not conducive to peace and unity.  One country, one culture works ok.  Regarding travel - when in Rome...

I mention this because China is clearly intent on spreading its culture and influence across nations, and who wants that?  No one.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> I've witnessed the complete 'Chinafication' of a suburb here in Melbourne.




Would that be Balwyn by any chance ?

I have relatives in that suburb (Aussie born) and they are one of the few residents on their block who are not Chinese.

Wealthy Chinese launder money by buying homes (usually for their kids while they are going to school), then sell it to other Chinese so they can do the same thing. One person living in a five bedroom house and they have pushed the price up beyond the affordability of normal Aussies.

Plus they cause a lot of car accidents because they paid bribes for their licenses in China and get an automatic license here even if they don't know our rules or how to drive.


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> 1) Trump calls a democratically elected leader, brutal dictatorship loses their minds. Let that sink in.
> 
> 2) Obama sold some 1.8Billion dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, nothing was said about that.




He also called to invite Phillipine's Duterte to come on over for the inauguration. Seems friends or foes have nothing to do with moral code or democracy - just what they can do and for how much.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> He also called to invite Phillipine's Duterte to come on over for the inauguration. Seems friends or foes have nothing to do with moral code or democracy - just what they can do and for how much.




Which shows how little Trump knows about the region. Duterte kowtowed to the Chinese a couple of months ago.



> In June, however, Rodrigo Duterte replaced Mr Aquino as president, and changed course abruptly. He has announced an end to joint Philippine-American military exercises and threatened to abrogate the EDCA. To drive this shift home, on a state visit to China two weeks ago, he announced his “separation” from America, and told his hosts: “I have realigned myself in your ideological flow…I will be dependent on you for all time.”
> 
> Following this display of fealty, China promised billions of dollars in loans and investment, and ended its blockade of Scarborough. The message for the other South-East Asian nations with competing claims in the South China Sea could not be clearer: accept China’s sovereignty and riches will follow. Najib Razak, Malaysia’s embattled prime minister, turned up in Beijing this week cap in hand.
> 
> Not only has Mr Duterte completely undermined America’s efforts to preserve a united front by other littoral states against China’s territorial ambitions in the South China Sea, he has also saved Xi Jinping, China’s leader, from a dilemma. After the adverse ruling from the tribunal, hardliners in China, especially in the military, were urging Mr Xi to hit back by, for example, building an air strip on Scarborough Shoal. Others argued that his tough line was already too risky, so he should adopt a more emollient approach. Thanks to Mr Duterte, China has got most of what it wanted””most notably, bilateral talks, which it has long asked for but the Philippines had rejected””without lifting a finger.




http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...n-return-waters-disputed-china-duterte-waters


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> I've witnessed the complete 'Chinafication' of a suburb here in Melbourne.  Once where there was a sense of unity and Australian-ness, now there's a very clear demarcation and division.  Those who live in the 'Chinafied' area speak Chinese and maintain Chinese culture.  Horrible.
> 
> All cultures do the same.  Think of the Aussie takeover of Bali.  Pushing their drinking culture and boorish ways onto the local population.  Of course not all Aussie travelers do that, but there's enough of it happening that it upsets the Indos.
> 
> Cultures should not mix to any great degree.  It's not conducive to peace and unity.  One country, one culture works ok.  Regarding travel - when in Rome...
> 
> I mention this because China is clearly intent on spreading its culture and influence across nations, and who wants that?  No one.





My great great grand father was Chinese. Couldn't speak a word of VNese when he first came to VN - either as a tradesman or a refugee, something that tend to happen every couple centuries there.

Now if you ask any of his descendants whether they're Chinese or Viet and they'll tell you. Or when China goes to war with VN, whose side will they be on. I mean my own father loathes the Viet comrades but if he hear me saying that it's understandable for China to take over the SCS [or the Eastern Sea as he call it]... not a good conversation starter.

Anyway, point is, while people might look and sound different... we wouldn't know their loyalty until that moment of truth, as they say.

Just like we can't seriously take it at face value that our (White) politicians are there to look after the national interests (instead of theirs and their friends own interest and trickle it down from them) because they're White or talk a good game serving the public. We can't assume that non-White immigrants are just here to live on welfare and serve their whatever gov't is back at their ancestor's land.

Home is where the mortgage is.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Which shows how little Trump knows about the region. Duterte kowtowed to the Chinese a couple of months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...n-return-waters-disputed-china-duterte-waters




A bit dangerous to have so ignorant and boastful a guy as president. Affairs of states would be a bit more complicated than a business deal right?

I bet Trump wouldn't know anything about the US's "efforts" in the Philippines over the centuries.


----------



## CanOz

SirRumpole said:


> Plus they cause a lot of car accidents because they paid bribes for their licenses in China and get an automatic license here even if they don't know our rules or how to drive.




Wrong, we have to go through a written test as well as a drivers test....please try and be factual


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> Wrong, we have to go through a written test as well as a drivers test....please try and be factual






> Rules for temporary and permanent visas holders
> Temporary Visa
> 
> *If you hold a temporary visa:*
> 
> you are *not required *to get a Victorian driver licence and/or learner permit
> you can drive using your current overseas driver licence *for the length of your stay*
> your driver licence must be written in English or accompanied by an English translation or international driving permit.
> 
> Permanent Visa
> 
> If you hold a permanent visa (issued under the Migration Act 1958) you may drive on your overseas driver licence if it's written in English or accompanied by an English translation or international driving permit for:
> 
> 6 months from the date you first entered Australia (if the permanent visa was issued before you entered Australia), or
> 6 months from the date when the permanent visa was issued (if the permanent visa was issued to you while in Australia).
> 
> If you want to continue driving in Victoria after this time you must get a Victorian driver licence. If your overseas driver licence has expired, you will still be able to take the drive test as you are exempt from holding a learner permit for the test.
> 
> Once you are issued with a Victorian driver licence or learner permit, it is against the law to use your overseas or interstate driver licence to drive in Victoria.
> 
> https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-update/new-to-victoria/overseas-drivers




So presumably if a Chinese student was here on a temporary visa they could drive in Victoria without restriction on an overseas license.

Don't know what the situation is in other States, I'll leave you to do your own research.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Resource allocation and identity are the two key issues in xenophobia.  

A country made up of multiple races is fine, but this always tends to degenerate into multi-culturalism.  It doesn't matter if you're in the most cosmopolitan, egalitarian, free-thinking, left wing part of New York - people mix with their own almost always.  It doesn't have to be this way, but just observe because it's very plain to see.  

So the modern way appears to be "BYO culture and reject the local culture", and that includes language, special dress, religion, food and activities.  The more competing cultures you have, the less resources there are for everyone.  Because under Australian law all cultures, religions and creeds are equal.  So it's a matter of dividing and dividing until resources dwindle.  Catering for 50 different languages and cultural activities and standards/norms/expectations and laws (in the case of some Muslims) is unworkable.  

Then there's national identity and the sense of community and belonging.

What's the answer?


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> What's the answer?




The White Australia Policy ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

SirRumpole said:


> The White Australia Policy ?




A multitude of problems were avoided by having that policy - that's undeniable - but it's not a mature solution.  People like a bit of a mix, but they don't want to lose Australian identity or have resources directed into non-Australian cultural directives that are vastly different to ours.  

If a local council has $1 mill to spend on a sporting complex, will they update the football/netball courts or build a badminton and table tennis centre?  When Chinese outnumber Australians, have a guess what happens.  This is one tiny example of how resource allocation gets put under ever increasing stress by multi-culturalism.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> The White Australia Policy ?




Yeah, then we can go back to talking about the ill temper of the Celt and how they are given to alcoholism, and worry about the papists growing influence.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Resource allocation and identity are the two key issues in xenophobia.
> 
> A country made up of multiple races is fine, but this always tends to degenerate into multi-culturalism.  It doesn't matter if you're in the most cosmopolitan, egalitarian, free-thinking, left wing part of New York - people mix with their own almost always.  It doesn't have to be this way, but just observe because it's very plain to see.
> 
> So the modern way appears to be "BYO culture and reject the local culture", and that includes language, special dress, religion, food and activities.  The more competing cultures you have, the less resources there are for everyone.  Because under Australian law all cultures, religions and creeds are equal.  So it's a matter of dividing and dividing until resources dwindle.  Catering for 50 different languages and cultural activities and standards/norms/expectations and laws (in the case of some Muslims) is unworkable.
> 
> Then there's national identity and the sense of community and belonging.
> 
> What's the answer?




The Solution, as McIrish would say, is Imperialism. There's the Final Solution, but let's not go there.

Serious though, I think Class and "social standing" are more prevalent than culture or ethnicity. The only similarities between rich and poor people, of any race, is that they all hate poor people. There are exceptions, but it's rare.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> A multitude of problems were avoided by having that policy - that's undeniable - but it's not a mature solution.  People like a bit of a mix, but they don't want to lose Australian identity or have resources directed into non-Australian cultural directives that are vastly different to ours.
> 
> If a local council has $1 mill to spend on a sporting complex, will they update the football/netball courts or build a badminton and table tennis centre?  When Chinese outnumber Australians, have a guess what happens.  This is one tiny example of how resource allocation gets put under ever increasing stress by multi-culturalism.




Culture and national identity is a living thing. It changes. If it doesn't, Australia would still be full of convicts and Aborigines.

But since the forefathers were farsighted when they set up the Constitution, Australian culture will be protected no matter the demographic changes. That is, power and privilege will always remain in the hands of the few rich elite; everyone else will get the crumbs - regardless of colour, food and deity preferences.

This is done through the lawful process of the elite picking what candidate to put to the plebs. Most candidate have been brought up right and will know what to say and what to do; those accidental heroes will either get in line or be replaced, or string along for amusement.


Regarding sport stadiums... I know a bunch of Asian and brown people and for some reason they just love football and cricket. Even brought their kids along to the games.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Yeah, then we can go back to talking about the ill temper of the Celt and how they are given to alcoholism, and worry about the papists growing influence.




As George Munster observed about NY... the new arrivals work hard at breaking down barriers in front of them; and just as quickly rebuild barriers behind them.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> As George Munster observed about NY... the new arrivals work hard at breaking down barriers in front of them; and just as quickly rebuild barriers behind them.




Interesting quote, (and disturbing and honest).  Explains all the Mexicans who voted for Trump.  None of the media leftists figured on that happening.  They'd prefer to blame Trump's win on "uneducated, angry white males with missing teeth, spittoons and girlfriends called Darlene" - what they would call "trash".  The Lefties like to fool themselves and pretend that everyone is equal... except for the trash people of middle America who are subhuman.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Interesting quote, (and disturbing and honest).  Explains all the Mexicans who voted for Trump.  None of the media leftists figured on that happening.  They'd prefer to blame Trump's win on "uneducated, angry white males with missing teeth, spittoons and girlfriends called Darlene" - what they would call "trash".  The Lefties like to fool themselves and pretend that everyone is equal... except for the trash people of middle America who are subhuman.




A lot of so-called Lefties aren't really left, they're just latte sipping a holes. And yea, they're very wrong about why people voted for Trump.

From what the Clinton supporters and DNC have been saying post the election - from Obama way on down - their reasons for Clinton's lost have nothing to do with their bs policies that's screwing over every working American, Left Right and Centre.

Obama put it to Clinton not going out there often enough to talk to people and give people a chance to hear her policies. Man... they've heard it, for some freaking 30 years, and ain't buying it. So it's just a matter of election strategies, not much about policies and actual doing things for people.

Then there's that blaming of Trump's supporter for being racists and stupid. Sure some of them are a bit of both, but it's not like the Clinton supporters are all informed - they wouldn't support her if they were informed; and wouldn't vote for her just because she's a woman either.

But yea, a lot of those who vote for Trump are ones that got screwed bigly by both parties over the decades; and they are hoping that Trump is that outsider who could work his magic on the country. 

So far, judging by his picks for office, it's the same old crap - with a lot more naked military rage and disdain for the common folks. 

But it might work out well since it would wake the heck out of the people hearing Trump's plans. But then the media will work their gloss and so we might all be screwed.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> Interesting quote, (and disturbing and honest).  Explains all the Mexicans who voted for Trump.  None of the media leftists figured on that happening.  They'd prefer to blame Trump's win on "uneducated, angry white males with missing teeth, spittoons and girlfriends called Darlene" - what they would call "trash".  The Lefties like to fool themselves and pretend that everyone is equal... except for the trash people of middle America who are subhuman.




I didn't realise Mexicans could vote.

The Hispanics (stupid name btw, unless we call Chief Sitting Bull "English") are either poor, brown and deeply Catholic or wealthy, white Cubans who hate anything that could be called "socialist". Hillary supports abortion, closer relations with Castro, gay marriage, higher taxes etc. It's not really surprising they don't fawn over her.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> I didn't realise Mexicans could vote.
> 
> The Hispanics (stupid name btw, unless we call Chief Sitting Bull "English") are either poor, brown and deeply Catholic or wealthy, white Cubans who hate anything that could be called "socialist". Hillary supports abortion, closer relations with Castro, gay marriage, higher taxes etc. It's not really surprising they don't fawn over her.




There are White Cubans? Oh yea, thirsty Rubio and ugly face what's his name.

Sitting Bull would be call Hienglish if Indian weren't already used. But yea, that's a bit farked up to call them Hispanics. I guess it's to remind them that they were once owned. 

Not sure why the Filipino don't change their country's name. Why would you want to be named after Phillippe II? 

But why would anyone who hate Socialism not like Hillary?


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> There are White Cubans? Oh yea, thirsty Rubio and ugly face what's his name.




Depending on where you are in Latin America it can range from 95% indian in Bolivia, to 95% white in Argentina. Wherever you are though, the rule of thumb is the more white you are the wealthier you are. That's why you don't see any whites jumping the border at El Paso.




luutzu said:


> But why would anyone who hate Socialism not like Hillary?




Democrats are seen, rightly or wrongly, as the party of big spending, high taxing government. Obama reaching out to Cuba, which has been seen as doing deals with the government to get American companies access to Cuba, did Clinton zero favours.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Boeing shares took a small hit.  I'm very much in favour of Trump calling them out on the cost of the new presidential jet.  As a savvy businessman, he knows roughly what it should cost and he knows they are "doing a number".  

Businesses do this constantly - try one on, push the envelope.  They do it out of greed, and also because they know so many customers will just pay up, especially big organizations where nothing is checked.  "A billion over budget?  Oh, that's a lot but we were told it might go a bit over.  Ok, just pay them".  Gillard style.

In this move, he's showing that financial screwing won't be tolerated.  Not in the US and not abroad.  I like it.  GS and others will be quaking in their boots.  Accountability?  On Wall St?


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> Boeing shares took a small hit.  I'm very much in favour of Trump calling them out on the cost of the new presidential jet.  As a savvy businessman, he knows roughly what it should cost and he knows they are "doing a number".




Why would a property developer from NY have any idea what a 747 military conversion costs? 





Gringotts Bank said:


> In this move, he's showing that financial screwing won't be tolerated.  Not in the US and not abroad.  I like it.  GS and others will be quaking in their boots.  Accountability?  On Wall St?






His treasury secretary spent 17 years at GS, and the current GS president is up for a position in Trump's team.

What does this move show?

Answer: The average attention span of Trump die hard is shorter than a goldfish, so they probably won't remember.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

McLovin said:


> Why would a property developer from NY have any idea what a 747 military conversion costs?




I knew you'd chime in with some smart ar.se comment - that being your specialty.

You think someone like Trump wouldn't have a list of contacts, one of whom would know an aeronautical design engineer?  You think he wouldn't have access to that information, either directly or indirectly?  Get real.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> I knew you'd chime in with some smart ar.se comment - that being your specialty.
> 
> You think someone like Trump wouldn't have a list of contacts, one of whom would know an aeronautical design engineer?  You think he wouldn't have access to that information, either directly or indirectly?  Get real.




Actually I was hoping mclovin would chime in....seems the only one left with any unbiased sense on this forum....


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> Actually I was hoping mclovin would chime in....seems the only one left with any unbiased sense on this forum....




Apart from yourself of course ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> Actually I was hoping mclovin would chime in....seems the only one left with any unbiased sense on this forum....




Would you approve of him shelling out 4 billion for a new jet if it's only worth say 2 bill?  I mean, it's only money.  Not like it couldn't be put to better use.

A couple of new medical centres?  A bridge?  .... nah, let's just have the jet.

He spends 10's of millions of his own money on a campaign, he refuses to be paid for the job.  If that doesn't spell commitment to his country, I don't know what does.


----------



## McLovin

Gringotts Bank said:


> I knew you'd chime in with some smart ar.se comment - that being your specialty.
> 
> You think someone like Trump wouldn't have a list of contacts, one of whom would know an aeronautical design engineer?  You think he wouldn't have access to that information, either directly or indirectly?  Get real.




The aircraft flies, you don't need an aeronautical engineer to tell you that. The list price for _two_ of them is $700m. The extra cost is all the secret stuff that Trump and his Rolaxdex would have no idea about.

Two billion dollars per aircraft doesn't seem that far fetched. It's not like they're making 50 of them. Whatever the development costs are they have to be spread over two jets.


----------



## Knobby22

Looking forward to this Trump Presidency. He has already attacked a few US companies and he just loves mouthing off. Should be great fun to watch. 

He loves tweeting stuff once his advisors have gone to bed. I think after 2 years of that some of those guys will have massive bags under the eyes.

With regard the aircraft, what about protection from EMF pulse, there is probably some additional armour plating underneath and some pretty high tech scrambling gear if someone shoots a missile at it? Also I bet it comes with leather seats


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> He spends 10's of millions of his own money on a campaign, he refuses to be paid for the job.  If that doesn't spell commitment to his country, I don't know what does.




Let's just see how much $$$ in government contracts goes to his company which of course he will have no control over while he's President but will have when he's not.


----------



## CanOz

There's a doco on airforce one on you tube, it's well documented that the aircraft are very customized and fit for purpose. He's grand standing....likely someone forgot to tell him he's won the election...

GB, what have you got to say regarding the GS hires?


----------



## CanOz

SirRumpole said:


> Apart from yourself of course ?




Yes, apart from me.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Let's just see how much $$$ in government contracts goes to his company which of course he will have no control over while he's President but will have when he's not.




The conflict of interest laws in the US do not apply to the President. He could sit in the Oval Office running his company and be totally immune from any prosecution. Nixon famously said "it's not illegal, if the president does it"(turns out it was). He's also refused the long precedent of setting up a blind trust to manage his assets, or even placing management of them in an independent third party.

The President of Argentina called to congratulate Trump, Trump and his daughter pressed the president on some building permits in BA that were taking too long.


----------



## luutzu

CanOz said:


> There's a doco on airforce one on you tube, it's well documented that the aircraft are very customized and fit for purpose. He's grand standing....likely someone forgot to tell him he's won the election...
> 
> GB, what have you got to say regarding the GS hires?




Oh he remembers. Just that Boeing scheduled the delivery in 2024 - way after his terms limit. 

So he gotta play hard and pull that schedule back. Gotta enjoy a brand spanking new AFO since his current jet is "better" than the current "aging" AFO.


You know it costs $1M a day to protect his family around Trump Towers? That's about $1.4B over a four year term.

But when he moves to Washington, the security around Trump tower will remain in place since his youngest son - Barron - and his mum want to stay back in NY so that little Barron there can finish his schooling. 

If he want to save taxpayers any money, he'd start telling his son that Washington isn't too shabby of a place for a president's son to get some schooling. Save taxpayers some cash while they're at it too.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> The conflict of interest laws in the US do not apply to the President. He could sit in the Oval Office running his company and be totally immune from any prosecution. Nixon famously said "it's not illegal, if the president does it"(turns out it was). He's also refused the long precedent of setting up a blind trust to manage his assets, or even placing management of them in an independent third party.
> 
> The President of Argentina called to congratulate Trump, Trump and his daughter pressed the president on some building permits in BA that were taking too long.




Trump is going to make the Clinton's $2B "foundation" and hundreds of millions in paid speeches seem like a genuine charity and sharing of wisdom.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> GB, what have you got to say regarding the GS hires?




Nothing much.  Look, I know how the super rich are.  I know most of them are cheating scum.  But I'd still far prefer a president who places some value on his own country and people.  And someone who isn't afraid to be himself.


----------



## DB008

luutzu said:


> Trump is going to make the Clinton's $2B "foundation" and hundreds of millions in paid speeches seem like a genuine charity and sharing of wisdom.




Sure. ok......


----------



## Knobby22

Trump himself is not in it for the money.
He is in it for the glory! 

He is 70 years old, why would he want more money?


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> Sure. ok......




You do realised that I was bashing both the Clintons and the Trumps right?

There's that McLovin reference to Trump's daughter and the Argentine president on building permits.

Just saw some clip about her joining her father in a meeting with Japan's PM Abe. Her own clothing company is negotiating with a Japanese company at the time... and that Japanese company is majority owned by the Japanese gov't.

Watch how the Trump's fortunes will miraculously balloon over the coming years. 


But to be fair to Trump, all US presidents and US policies have been to benefit big corporations anyway... Trump is just a whole lot smarter and see nothing wrong with his country, his administration benefiting his family's business too.

It's call efficiency - cut out the middle man. No need for that revolving door, book deals, speaking fees, directorships bs. 

If the bin Saud, the Kims, the Comrades, the Tudors ran their little empire for their little clans... what's so special about the US and its First Family?

Real Politiks and what not.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> But to be fair to Trump, all US presidents and US policies have been to benefit big corporations anyway... Trump is just a whole lot smarter and see nothing wrong with his country, his administration benefiting his family's business too.




Exactly. That's why I was no fan of Clinton. She'd been around way too long and was too secretive about pretty much everything. I don't buy the whole _Mr Smith Goes to Washington _ thing that Trump is trying to sell either.

If America wasn't America I wouldn't give two sh!ts about who they elect president.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> If the bin Saud, the Kims, the Comrades, the Tudors ran their little empire for their little clans... what's so special about the US and its First Family?
> 
> Real Politiks and what not.




Democracies expect higher standards and the press may well tar and feather him if he goes too far.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Exactly. That's why I was no fan of Clinton. She'd been around way too long and was too secretive about pretty much everything. I don't buy the whole _Mr Smith Goes to Washington _ thing that Trump is trying to sell either.
> 
> If America wasn't America I wouldn't give two sh!ts about who they elect president.




The US, like any other nations, cannot retain its wealth and power if its masses are living in poverty. And that's where it's heading in a real hurry.

With wealth and influence extremely concentrated at the very top; with over-extended military and constant wars... if it manage to quell the internal rebellion that bubbling, it'll just be another failed state in the not too distant future. May become just another Russia.

We tend to forget that the US have already been through two civil wars since its founding. The Civil War in the 1860s; then the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s/60s. There was also a potential rebellion in the 1930s when the Great Depression was about to bring communism - or at least whatever else but "capitalism" on itself.

There was also a real potential civil uprising in the late 60s, early 70s that scare the bejesus out of US planners that they have to end the war in VN so that they would have enough troops at home to potentially suppress any rebellion.

Lincoln managed to win the first civil war - though no much of a win given some 1/4 of the population was dead; FDR managed to save the capitalists with that socialist Deal New programmes; Johnson solved that segregation uprising peacefully... Obama could have done a second New Deal but instead drove the country right into an idiot like Trump.

Maybe the American will just put up with it. Maybe Trump will just start a few more wars and extend the national spirit a few more years.

Time to either invest in the military industrial complex, or a canned food company.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Democracies expect higher standards and the press may well tar and feather him if he goes too far.




That fourth estate has long been bought and owned by people like him, by people whose interests he's apparently setting out to pleased.

So I wouldn't put too much faith in the mainstream media. I mean, no honest media or journalist would ever see what's going on in US domestic and foreign policies and still sing praises of its greatness.

The state gov't of Michigan appealed a court ruling that it delivered drinking water to Americans without safe drinking water in Flint. It bloody appeal a judge's order that American citizens have the right to clean drinking water, and have that delivered - 1 case per family per week - because the gov't screwed up and poisoned an entire city and still haven't bothered to do anything about fixing it.

It's been over two years since they know kids are being lead poisoned; know the pipes are rusted and full of bacteria... nothing has been done but that one pack of water Band-Aid; and even that they argued is just too much trouble.

Are the news all over that kind of bs?

Are there any mainstream reporters out there reporting that Nestle' is pumping water from the city's aquafer - for practically free - sell that all over the country; but the people whose water are poisoned are just abandoned?


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Trump himself is not in it for the money.
> He is in it for the glory!
> 
> He is 70 years old, why would he want more money?




You obviously aren't a greedy sociopath.

You know who wants glory?

Teddy Roosevelt; Hitler; Napoleon; Caesar; Alexander; Genghis Khan...

Those crazy warmongers doesn't care much for money - hence they never get into commerce and defraud people out of their money. 

They simply want to overthrow countries, destroy cities to re-dedicate it to the glory of their ancestors and call it a day.

Guys like Trump only want money and what it could buy - fame, women, nice big brass houses.. .and if more money mean having to read some speeches and having access to intelligence briefing and the nuclear launch code... why not.


----------



## Logique

Any questions? The DJIA has risen a little over +10% since the election.


----------



## pixel

Gringotts Bank said:


> He spends 10's of millions of his own money on a campaign, he refuses to be paid for the job.  If that doesn't spell commitment to his country, I don't know what does.



I'm still very apprehensive about this "commitment to his country" business. At the extreme that Trump takes it to, disregarding how it alienates and disadvantages the 95% non-US citizens of the World, he crosses the line into dangerous Nationalism and economic Imperialism. History is full of precedents. Sadly, only very few learn anything from History and tend to repeat the same mistakes.

Trump's predecessor as "Time Mag Person of the Year" (78 years ago) didn't have much of his own money to spend; but he spent jail time for his conviction and "commitment to his country".  Did it qualify him for the job?

Let's revisit this topic in 2 years' time, maybe 6, and compare the outcomes... For our children's and grandkids' sake, let's pray that History DOES NOT repeat itself.


----------



## McLovin

> The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.
> 
> Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials. Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton’s chances.
> 
> “It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,” said a senior U.S. official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to U.S. senators. “That’s the consensus view.”




A foreign power actively trying to influence an electoral outcome, and Trump's response...




> The Trump transition team dismissed the findings in a short statement issued Friday evening. “These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again,’ ” the statement read.
> 
> Trump has consistently dismissed the intelligence community’s findings about Russian hacking.
> 
> “I don’t believe they interfered” in the election, he told Time magazine this week. The hacking, he said, “could be Russia. And it could be China. And it could be some guy in his home in New Jersey.”




So it would seem he trusts Putin more than he trusts his own intelligence agencies. That cannot be good.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.e86b51b00e58


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> A foreign power actively trying to influence an electoral outcome, and Trump's response...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it would seem he trusts Putin more than he trusts his own intelligence agencies. That cannot be good.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.e86b51b00e58




Any provision to annul the election based on external interference ?


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> A foreign power actively trying to influence an electoral outcome, and Trump's response...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it would seem he trusts Putin more than he trusts his own intelligence agencies. That cannot be good.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.e86b51b00e58




Are those WikiLeaks emails and documents false?

If not, then so what if Russia was behind the hack?

Are there things about Trump that voters don't already know about to not like him? If there are, you can bet the Clinton campaign would have released it. For one, they know a guy who know a few other guys working in the NSA and Homeland Security and everywhere.


And why are the US so surprised and indignant about other states trying to influence their elections? They never does it? They don't hack into or spy on other states? It's just part of what states all do since ever, right?

Did they hack into some sort of weapons labs or nuclear launch sites or fired some missiles to get Trump in, and with Trump's consent? Nope.

They just hacked into Clinton's private server - which btw, you might not want to have state secrets on in the first place. That and Podesta's gmail. 

With careless, and apparently legal, mishandling of classified info like that; maybe they should be the one the CIA ought to get tough on.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Are those WikiLeaks emails and documents false?
> 
> If not, then so what if Russia was behind the hack?




My point was you would expect the President-elect to back his own government rather than a quasi-democratic foreign government.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Any provision to annul the election based on external interference ?




Don't think so, and unless they could prove vote tampering I doubt the US Supreme Court would annul the election based on a foreign government leaking emails. Trump won pretty comprehensively. It was really only California that gave Clinton the win in the popular vote.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> My point was you would expect the President-elect to back his own government rather than a quasi-democratic foreign government.




True. Good point. I get it now.

So he could have said something like... the Russia did this? Our intelligence agencies said they're behind attempts to influence our democracies? That's outrages.

Yea, that would have been smarter. 

But then he's Trump. Anyone who help him win isn't so bad.


----------



## Tisme

See one of Malcolm's besties has landed a job to head up the USA Manufacturing Council.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> See one of Malcolm's besties has landed a job to head up the USA Manufacturing Council.




He's got a better chance there than here.


----------



## luutzu

Trump says US not bound by "one China" policy - ie. don't slap the Chinese in the face on Taiwan.

Dam, Obama was only pivoting to Asia and China built a handful of military bases offshore. What would they do with Trump kicking the door in like this?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Trump says US not bound by "one China" policy - ie. don't slap the Chinese in the face on Taiwan.
> 
> Dam, Obama was only pivoting to Asia and China built a handful of military bases offshore. What would they do with Trump kicking the door in like this?




How much of their money comes out of the US. I'd say they would be quietly $hitting themselves. Trade restrictions, tariffs, and taxes are how you slay the dragon, they can bluff and bluster all they like. But when it comes down to it, the fight will be through financial markets.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> How much of their money comes out of the US. I'd say they would be quietly $hitting themselves. Trade restrictions, tariffs, and taxes are how you slay the dragon, they can bluff and bluster all they like. But when it comes down to it, the fight will be through financial markets.




Exactly, the U.S needs China's cheap junk, China needs the U.S buying it. We need the Chinese selling it and so it goes around.

China needs to be told to pull its head in.IMO Trump is doing that.

Supplying the demand, then withdrawing the demand, when companies have geared up to supply it, is just manipulating markets, which China are experts at. Also they have the perfect political system to support it.

Which leads back to Australia's problem, of getting fair value for finite resources, the only way is a charge per ton exported.IMO Because China will own the companies removing it, so we have to charge them per ton removed.FFS

Do any of us, believe China will pay our welfare, when the resources are gone?

Will China or the U.S buy our manufactured goods, when the resources are gone? I don't think so and I can't think of many goods we manufacture.lol

The only hope we have, is to charge miners for the material they remove and use that money to develop our infrastructure and economy.IMO

The way we are going, the resources and wealth will be gone, and we will have nothing to show for it.

The last thing we need is weak Government, China and the U.S are having a staring match and we are pi$$ing around with gay marriage, whether we should be a republic, if you can call a spade a spade or a digging implement.

Jeez we are in more $hit than Ned Kelly and we have limp d!cks running the show, what a hoot.

my first rant, for awhile.lol


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> Which leads back to Australia's problem, of getting fair value for finite resources, the only way is a charge per ton exported.IMO Because China will own the companies removing it, so we have to charge them per ton removed.FFS
> 
> The only hope we have, is to charge miners for the material they remove and use that money to develop our infrastructure and economy.IMO
> 
> The way we are going, the resources and wealth will be gone, and we will have nothing to show for it.




You are starting to sound like a socialist.

Either way, you are right.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> You are starting to sound like a socialist.
> 
> Either way, you are right.




It isn't socialism, it is just getting fair value for your product.

Not some high falutin, quasi expectation, that the people that are b!tch slapping you, will look after you when you have nothing to offer.

I guess it is about self respect, and standing up for your beliefs, like the Brexit.
The poms didn't fold in either World War, just hope we are made of the same stuff.lol

Jeez I'd better get off the "red Ned", lol. I just wish someone in politics would grow a pair, Shorten and Turnbull won't and Pauline wants to but can't, lol what a mess.

On the web today, we seem to be fixated on some lady named Armitage and her underwear. lol Don't you just love it, news at its best. what a hoot.

we can't discuss the reason that people who are homeless, can afford drugs ? WOW don't say that.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trumps refusal to liquidate assets into a blind trust could violate the Constitution according to some.


'A walking, talking violation of the Constitution'


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-14/opinion-donald-trump-conflicts-of-interest/8095842


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Trumps refusal to liquidate assets into a blind trust could violate the Constitution according to some.
> 
> 
> 'A walking, talking violation of the Constitution'
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-14/opinion-donald-trump-conflicts-of-interest/8095842




Wouldn't be surprised if one of his kids get caught in short selling stock Daddy's about to tweet negatively about.

I don't remember so man CEOs in the one Cabinet. Guess he's cutting out the middle man with that too.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> I don't remember so many CEOs in the one Cabinet. Guess he's cutting out the middle man with that too.




Yes true. Though there was that Vice president under Bush jnr.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Yes true. Though there was that Vice president under Bush jnr.




Darth Cheney? Yea, look what a couple of CEOs - Defence and Treasury - did to the economy and peace in the world under Jr. 

With Trump, there's about five or six CEO of major corporations in the Cabinet - so far.

From what I know of US laws and previous CEO appointments, if these guys are confirmed by the Senate - chances are they will - it'll costs the IRS around a couple hundred millions in loss taxes on day one of the Trump admin.

Each of these CEO have around $100 to $200 million in options and rights and personal holdings. Once they go serve the public, all those have to be sold and put into a "blind" trust. All of it are tax free.

Sweet ey? Politics mean service, sacrifice, money, more money, power, then more money.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Darth Cheney? Yea, look what a couple of CEOs - Defence and Treasury - did to the economy and peace in the world under Jr.
> 
> With Trump, there's about five or six CEO of major corporations in the Cabinet - so far.
> 
> Sweet ey? Politics mean service, sacrifice, money, more money, power, then more money.




Too true, I can't imagine how so many inflated egos will function together.  Reminds me of Enron unfortunately.

I see this as a great experiment. If it fails we will see an equivalent to Bernie Sanders elected next along with a Democrat party congress and house. If it succeeds then we Trump will go down as one of the greatest presidents ever. it's not a binary choice however. It will probably go down a middle path and half succeed and half fail.


----------



## moXJO

Julian Assange blew the Russian email hack rumours out of the water. Apparently it was someone close to Hillary that absolutely hates the Clinton's and thinks they are the worst people on the planet.

News outlets still blaming Russia


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump hasn't got it wrapped up yet. The Electoral College could still vote against him.

Donald Trump: US celebrities urge Electoral College to vote against President-elect



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/celebrities-urge-electoral-college-to-dump-trump/8124722


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Trump hasn't got it wrapped up yet. The Electoral College could still vote against him.
> 
> Donald Trump: US celebrities urge Electoral College to vote against President-elect
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/celebrities-urge-electoral-college-to-dump-trump/8124722





Reminiscent of Team America movie, where celebrity and fantasy outranks ability and reality. Having said that Americans are a strange people who have morphed into the caricatures and cliches of the movies..... many look and behave like cartoons come to life IMO.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Trump hasn't got it wrapped up yet. The Electoral College could still vote against him.
> 
> Donald Trump: US celebrities urge Electoral College to vote against President-elect
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/celebrities-urge-electoral-college-to-dump-trump/8124722




Such a SFA chance  of this happening that I'm surprised it was news at all.


----------



## explod

Tisme said:


> Reminiscent of Team America movie, where celebrity and fantasy outranks ability and reality. Having said that Americans are a strange people who have morphed into the caricatures and cliches of the movies..... many look and behave like cartoons come to life IMO.




Pretty good analogy really,  grow up on TV Mickey Mouse,  become mickey mouse.


----------



## moXJO

Hillary now is pushing the "It's all Russia's fault" line. Democrats are eating up conspiracy theories like m&m's. Goes to show the left is as stupid as the right. 
She represents all that is evil and wrong with the political  system. Trump, all that is wrong with big business. It's like when corrupt and stupid collide.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Hillary now is pushing the "It's all Russia's fault" line. Democrats are eating up conspiracy theories like m&m's. Goes to show the left is as stupid as the right.
> She represents all that is evil and wrong with the political  system. Trump, all that is wrong with big business. It's like when corrupt and stupid collide.




It makes Bernie Sanders look perfectly reasonable doesn't it ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> It makes Bernie Sanders look perfectly reasonable doesn't it ?




He would have won.
America needed an outsider, but the dems have become too corrupt and bloated to shake the system. Republicans I suspect also knew the damage an outsider would do to their gravy train and tried to resist.
Next option is to make em fail with the "Rudd option" - work against them behind the scenes and stage leaks.


----------



## dutchie

U.S. president-elect Donald Trump blamed Monday’s multiple terrorist attacks on radical Islamic terrorism, calling the deadly day a wake-up call for the world and vowing to destroy the Islamic State.

“Today there were terror attacks in Turkey, Switzerland and Germany - and it is only getting worse. *The civilized world must change thinking!*” he tweeted.

(my bolds)



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/19/donald-trump-germany-turkey-switzerland-attacks-wa/


----------



## luutzu

dutchie said:


> U.S. president-elect Donald Trump blamed Monday’s multiple terrorist attacks on radical Islamic terrorism, calling the deadly day a wake-up call for the world and vowing to destroy the Islamic State.
> 
> “Today there were terror attacks in Turkey, Switzerland and Germany - and it is only getting worse. *The civilized world must change thinking!*” he tweeted.
> 
> (my bolds)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/19/donald-trump-germany-turkey-switzerland-attacks-wa/





Dam terrorists!

If things have to be blown up and innocent people have to be sacrificed and terrorised, it better come off of a jet, a drone, a submarine, a frigate. Or it better come from rebels trained and supplied by designated good guys.

That's how you fight wars in a civil way. 

Can't fight wars with knives, trucks, rocks, explosive vests... that's uncivilised bro.


On the bright side, Trump might actually mean a different and opposite, new kind of thinking. Not the new but old kind of more torturing some folks, taking out their families (and friends and neighbours), and just take the oil and go home kinda "rethink".


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Dam terrorists!
> 
> If things have to be blown up and innocent people have to be sacrificed and terrorised, it better come off of a jet, a drone, a submarine, a frigate. Or it better come from rebels trained and supplied by designated good guys.
> 
> That's how you fight wars in a civil way.
> 
> Can't fight wars with knives, trucks, rocks, explosive vests... that's uncivilised bro.
> 
> 
> On the bright side, Trump might actually mean a different and opposite, new kind of thinking. Not the new but old kind of more torturing some folks, taking out their families (and friends and neighbours), and just take the oil and go home kinda "rethink".




You are condoning these acts, Grasshopper?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Trump hasn't got it wrapped up yet. The Electoral College could still vote against him.
> 
> Donald Trump: US celebrities urge Electoral College to vote against President-elect
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/celebrities-urge-electoral-college-to-dump-trump/8124722



How embarrassing for the Hollywood libtards,  more college voters tried to go against Hillary than the Donald.

As is the rightful order of things, those useless overpaid badtids have no influence whatsoever


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> You are condoning these acts, Grasshopper?




I would never condone such a crime.

What I'm saying is that whether it's some crazy idiot murdering innocent people with a truck or a knife; or some other crazies murdering people with drones or missiles, it's all the same horrifying act of terrorism.

Just because "our" side, or friends of ours, does it doesn't mean it's any less murderous and barbaric.

Like I've been saying... if we want this kind of crap to stop, we can do a few things. One is to just keep cursing at Islam, hate the Muslims and permit the warmongers among us to cut public and social programs to fund jets and foreign adventures to liberate and educate and kill "them". 

Or maybe we should stop taking over other people's country and resources. See if that would stop them from hating us and murdering our people. That might actually work.


It's no joke that there's a bunch of psychos in every capital city and power centres sitting around planning how best to murder "other" people. Then how much of their own people they're willing to sacrifice to get the job done.

I mean, the CIA and Pentagon know that the invasion of Iraq will mean increased blowback on Western and American soil. Does Bush, Blair, Howard and others great men of destiny care? 

Maybe they care enough with that traffic light warning crap. But if we kill more of them than they of us, we're winning... apparently. 


So we better get our head out of the warmongers' asses and start to think and understand why other people hate us so much.

To understand is not to sympathise or support or condone. But to know whether the price is worth whatever the reward is. If we think it's worth it, then sure, support more wars on terror war.

Just don't be stupid and lazy and just support whatever is necessary to "win" and liberate and democratise blah blah... then be shocked and surprised that the enemy are sadistic and crazy enough to fight back.

Yea, somehow it's fine and dandy for the civilised world to fly drones and take out gov't and lit the region to flame. That's all legal and all good because why?


----------



## wayneL

Why not target military, or government institutions,  rather than, innocent families out for a bratwurst, a mulled wine and gingerbread men?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Why not target military, or government institutions,  rather than, innocent families out for a bratwurst, a mulled wine and gingerbread men?




They're psychopaths that's why.

That and it's war. In war all sides target "soft" targets. 

So all the big and little Napoleons on both sides sit back in their air conditioned bunkers thinking grand strategy and sending out their tactical kill list. People then die.


----------



## noco

I cannot for the life of me understand why this thread keeps on KEEPING ON.

Trump is the President elect and is constantly being condemned before he even takes office.

Is it just sour grapes from the Democrats having lost....Why can't they accept the result and move on.

Give the guy a chance to prove himself and if he fails then he will deserve to be condemned.


----------



## basilio

And you can't see anything in the choice of cabinet ministers he has made, comments regarding China, using his new office like a gold plated financial entry into the world economy to give you cause for concern ?

Well of course not Noco. Because that's the sort of guy you are


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> They're psychopaths that's why.
> 
> That and it's war. In war all sides target "soft" targets.
> 
> So all the big and little Napoleons on both sides sit back in their air conditioned bunkers thinking grand strategy and sending out their tactical kill list. People then die.




It's war then. Lets intern and or export the local muslims,  lets bomb the crap out of their mosques as they pray, blow up their schools and markets... As primary target,  lets forget about the fighter, lets go for the sof target.

This is the type of war you are condoning


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> And you can't see anything in the choice of cabinet ministers he has made, comments regarding China, using his new office like a gold plated financial entry into the world economy to give you cause for concern ?
> 
> Well of course not Noco. Because that's the sort of guy you are




Thanks for your compliments Bas but just lets wait and see what happens in the US future with your concerns and wild predictions before condemning the man..

I know you would have preferred the Socialist Hillary Clinton be US president but please accept the fact that she lost.
Your expression of sour grapes will only make you look like you are still sucking on a lemon.

Cheer up old mate......It is not the end of the world.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> It's war then. Lets intern and or export the local muslims,  lets bomb the crap out of their mosques as they pray, blow up their schools and markets... As primary target,  lets forget about the fighter, lets go for the sof target.
> 
> This is the type of war you are condoning




How does pointing out facts condoning it?

The Japs attacked Pearl Harbour on a lazy American weekend where the sailors were most likely drunk from the previous night's partying or off duty. 

The Americans drop firebombs on Tokyo because of its timber houses build in close proximity to each other. They drop explosives on European/German cities instead.


And if I were to ever condone any act of war, I'd be condoning "our" act of war on them. Why? Because I might become crazy doing that, but never stupid.


And what make you think the war on terror aren't targeting soft targets? That's the first thing our warmongers do before they can permission to start carpet bombing - they sanction and starve the population to death. We've become so indoctrinated we think that that's a good thing. That kids and sick people not having access to food and medicine deserves to die slowly because our wise leaders don't like their dictator.

But yea, since Obama define any dead from American bombings as terrorist until proven otherwise, I guess all those they've killed are terrorist. So unless they come back from the dead and prove their innocents...


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The Americans drop firebombs on Tokyo because of its timber houses build in close proximity to each other. They drop explosives on European/German cities instead.
> 
> 
> ...




Wrong


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Wrong





I'm quite delicate Tisme. Point taken, no need for illustration. 

Apparently, bombing of civilian targets weren't considered a war crime at the Nuremburg Trial. Why? Because the Allied did more of it.

True story. That if "we" did it, it's not a crime. Ah the good old days, it never really left us.


----------



## Logique

If Streep is going to use an industry stage to take a cheap shot at Trump, she shouldn't complain if what goes around, comes around.


> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...-golden-globes-criticism-20170109-gtoj2i.html
> 10 Jan 2017 - Donald Trump dismisses 'over-rated' Meryl Streep as a 'flunky' for Hillary Clinton after Golden Globes criticism...


----------



## DB008

In Hollywood, mocking a reporter's disability (which Trump didn't) is worse than four people torturing a special needs adult for 24+ hours.​

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/818342525140398081/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> And you can't see anything in the choice of cabinet ministers he has made, comments regarding China, using his new office like a gold plated financial entry into the world economy to give you cause for concern ?
> 
> Well of course not Noco. Because that's the sort of guy you are




I guess that is his prerogative.......Is there a problem with his choice of cabinet ministers?

I think it is sour grapes on your part because your beloved Socialist Hillary Clinton lost....The US Democrats are poor losers.

That Socialist Obama made some derogatory remarks about Australia but I guess that is OK in your eyes.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I guess that is his prerogative.......Is there a problem with his choice of cabinet ministers?
> 
> I think it is sour grapes on your part because your beloved Socialist Hillary Clinton lost....The US Democrats are poor losers.
> 
> That Socialist Obama made some derogatory remarks about Australia but I guess that is OK in your eyes.





Clinton and Obama are Socialists? 

That's  like believing that Trump is the man of the common people.

Saw pics of him with China's Jack Ma today. Last month it was with Japan's Son... common denominator seems to be billion dollars and cents.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I guess that is his prerogative.......Is there a problem with his choice of cabinet ministers?
> 
> I think it is sour grapes on your part because your beloved Socialist Hillary Clinton lost....The US Democrats are poor losers.
> 
> That Socialist Obama made some derogatory remarks about Australia but I guess that is OK in your eyes.





In fact, Clinton lose because she's not a socialist. She faked her I feel your pain bs and not only were the people aware of it from their daily life experience under Bill and Barry's policies, but also from her times at the top.

If she had been more honest, her policies more progressive ("socialist"), she would have beat Trump like any business he had ever ran.


----------



## bellenuit

DB008 said:


> In Hollywood, mocking a reporter's disability (which Trump didn't) is worse than four people torturing a special needs adult for 24+ hours.​
> 
> https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/818342525140398081/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw




Not the same. The special needs adult was not tortured by the president elect and yes he did mock the reporter's disability.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> That Socialist Obama made some derogatory remarks about Australia but I guess that is OK in your eyes.




The only negative thing I heard Obama say about Australia is that our government is letting the Barrier Reef die.

That is quite true. I do not see that as being a negative against the country as a whole.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> The only negative thing I heard Obama say about Australia is that our government is letting the Barrier Reef die.
> 
> That is quite true. I do not see that as being a negative against the country as a whole.




More lies and propaganda by the Socialist Obama.

You know as well as I do, the Australian Government is in top gear looking after the Great Barrier Reef....Climate change is a natural phenomena and nothing to do with farms or coal......So stop talking BS....Most of the bleaching has occurred north of Cooktown where there is no mining or farming.


----------



## McLovin

Logique said:


> If Streep is going to use an industry stage to take a cheap shot at Trump, she shouldn't complain if what goes around, comes around.




Celebrity grandstanding is a pain the arse. I don't want to listen to Meryl Streep opine on politics anymore than I wanted to listen to Charlton Heston opine about guns. But really, should the guy who is about to become the most powerful man on Earth give two f**ks what Meryl Streep thinks, let alone be Tweeting like a high schooler who got rejected by a girl he asked to prom? The majority of America didn't vote for him. People will disagree with him.

There's something to be said about acting presidential.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Celebrity grandstanding is a pain the arse, but really, should the guy who is about to become the most powerful man on Earth give two f**ks what Meryl Streep thinks, let alone be Tweeting like a high schooler who got rejected by a girl he asked to prom? If he's going to try and have the last word with everyone who criticises him over the next four years, it's going to be a very long four years.
> 
> There's something to be said about acting presidential.




I've sold my shares and am building a bunker. People have been saying that he'll be ok but it's almost a certainty he will have a negative affect all round.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Celebrity grandstanding is a pain the arse. I don't want to listen to Meryl Streep opine on politics anymore than I wanted to listen to Charlton Heston opine about guns. But really, should the guy who is about to become the most powerful man on Earth give two f**ks what Meryl Streep thinks, let alone be Tweeting like a high schooler who got rejected by a girl he asked to prom? The majority of America didn't vote for him. People will disagree with him.
> 
> There's something to be said about acting presidential.




I'm willing to bet that Trump will be Impeached or forced to resign within his first term.

He's way too greedy and corrupt, with way too little smarts, to get through this. Unless he just sit back and let others run the show, but then his kids wouldn't like that.


----------



## noirua

Donald Trump will go for some protectionism to make sure states like Wisconsin will back him second time round on increasing jobs and bringing back industry.  Particularly coal and cars as the main starters.

A big tax break will arrive very quickly for individuals. Following this will be lower taxes on company profits. Tariffs on certain imports will be heavy and those companies building car plants abroad, particularly Mexico, will feel the force of the Trump fist with import duties markedly raised and increased taxes. China and other Asian countries will see massive import duties added to as high as 25% or more.

The wall to cut off Mexicans will be a tall more flimsy affair. At the same time forces protecting the wall will be raised in numbers to several times the present level. 

Obama care will be wound down gradually to that acceptable to the Senate and Congress. Being careful to make sure war veterans and severely sick and disabled get much more help in both health and jobs.

In fact, most agreements with Russia and other countries will be purely on a business footing. Japan and other countries relying on American forces to back them will see heavy bills presented to them.

Other than this it will be seen that the problems raised by a Trump administration have been overblown.
Much will carry on as before and the UK's exit from the EU will be a big opportunity for Trump to throw his weight around whilst having a big beaming smile like a cheshire cat.


----------



## Tisme

Sound familiar?

http://distractify.com/trending/201...2&tse_id=INF_61a5bd70d75611e6a03c354c456e1db2


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Sound familiar?
> 
> http://distractify.com/trending/201...2&tse_id=INF_61a5bd70d75611e6a03c354c456e1db2




I heard some guy was quoting some Soviet guy (not really) jokingly asking some Western journalist how is it that the West managed to manipulate its masses so easily and without resorting to the Gulag and dark cells. 

Pretty amazing how most Americans, it seem, does not like "socialised medicine" and believe its Congress when they tell them that it's so bad, all of Congress have to use it all these years. 


Back to Trump... seems that Congress does not want Trump to even think about getting on good terms with Russia. My Dad was saying that Trump might not be such an idiot in that he's trying to play nice with Putin so that China can be left alone a bit as the US try to whack it. 

But with the US Congress and all its intelligence and media saying that Trump won because of Russia's hacking; Russia hacks and spy on poor innocent American political establishment; and today, that Putin got a load of compromising info on Trump... yea, try and make nice with Russia now Donald.

Upsetting China is not so bad; trying to maybe play nice with Russia, not so good. 

Seems American planners have been so dominant for so long that they think taking on the world all at once is no biggie.


----------



## DB008

CNN call him a Russian spy and that he also has a piss fetish - with no credible evidence....

Ouch, backfired hard. CNN is a joke

​


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:


> CNN call him a Russian spy and that he also has a piss fetish - with no credible evidence....
> 
> Ouch, backfired hard. CNN is a joke
> 
> ​





You know that CNN_ didn't_ report on the contents on the dossier specifically because they could not verify it? All they said was the document alleged that Russia had compromising personal and financial knowledge of Trump. That seems pretty newsworthy to me, and according to their sources the information was credible. Why shouldn't they run the story?

Buzzfeed were the ones who leaked the full document.

From Tuesday...



> At this point, CNN is not reporting on details of the memos, as it has not independently corroborated the specific allegations. But, in preparing this story, CNN has spoken to multiple high ranking intelligence, administration, congressional and law enforcement officials, as well as foreign officials and others in the private sector with direct knowledge of the memos.
> 
> Some of the memos were circulating as far back as last summer. What has changed since then is that US intelligence agencies have now checked out the former British intelligence operative and his vast network throughout Europe and find him and his sources to be credible enough to include some of the information in the presentations to the President and President-elect a few days ago.


----------



## DB008

My bad.

So CNN is fake news
Buzzfeed is garbage

Got it


----------



## SirRumpole

MrBurns said:


> I've sold my shares and am building a bunker. People have been saying that he'll be ok but it's almost a certainty he will have a negative affect all round.




I think the most apparent effect will be a massive increase in the wealth of the Trump family.

Kickbacks for government contracts awarded, special deals for Trump interests in foreign countries, that sort of thing.

I think it's highly likely he will overstep somewhere and be impeached. So he then just resigns and goes to live in the Bahamas.


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:


> My bad.
> 
> So CNN is fake news
> Buzzfeed is garbage
> 
> Got it




What was fake about what they reported?


----------



## DB008

McLovin said:


> You know that CNN_ didn't_ report on the contents on the dossier specifically because they could not verify it? All they said was the document alleged that Russia had compromising personal and financial knowledge of Trump. That seems pretty newsworthy to me, and according to their sources the information was credible. Why shouldn't they run the story?
> 
> Buzzfeed were the ones who leaked the full document.
> 
> From Tuesday...





From Zero Hedge -

In a fascinating retort by the left-leaning NYT to the story of the day, namely the CNN-BuzzFeed narrative based on an unverified 35-page memo allegedly prepared by a UK intelligence officer, even "the paper of record" takes the two media outlets to town, and in an article titled "BuzzFeed Posts Unverified Claims on Trump, Stirring Debate" essentially accuses them of doing what CNN has accused so much of the 'alternative media' in doing when distributing "fake news."


Here are the key excerpts:
The reports by CNN and Buzzfeed sent other news organizations, including The New York Times and The Washington Post, scrambling to publish their own articles, some of which included generalized descriptions of the unverified allegations about Mr. Trump. *By late Tuesday, though, only BuzzFeed had published the full document*.


BuzzFeed’s decision, besides its immediate political ramifications for a president-elect who is to be inaugurated in 10 days, *was sure to accelerate a roiling debate about the role and credibility of the traditional media in today’s frenetic, polarized information age*.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-11/nyt-suggests-cnn-buzzfeed-peddled-fake-news​
CNN also called Brietbart “the most prominent platform” for the Nazi salute and for “the white supremacists in this country.”

CNN has also been reporting attacks by 'Trump supporters', but somehow the retractions when proven false never get the same coverage.


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:


> From Zero Hedge -
> 
> In a fascinating retort by the left-leaning NYT to the story of the day, namely the CNN-BuzzFeed narrative based on an unverified 35-page memo allegedly prepared by a UK intelligence officer, even "the paper of record" takes the two media outlets to town, and in an article titled "BuzzFeed Posts Unverified Claims on Trump, Stirring Debate" essentially accuses them of doing what CNN has accused so much of the 'alternative media' in doing when distributing "fake news."
> 
> 
> Here are the key excerpts:
> The reports by CNN and Buzzfeed sent other news organizations, including The New York Times and The Washington Post, scrambling to publish their own articles, some of which included generalized descriptions of the unverified allegations about Mr. Trump. *By late Tuesday, though, only BuzzFeed had published the full document*.
> 
> 
> BuzzFeed’s decision, besides its immediate political ramifications for a president-elect who is to be inaugurated in 10 days, *was sure to accelerate a roiling debate about the role and credibility of the traditional media in today’s frenetic, polarized information age*.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-11/nyt-suggests-cnn-buzzfeed-peddled-fake-news​



​I think Tyler Durden may need to brush up on his comprehension skills. The NYT is criticising Buzzfeed for publishing the full document and praising CNN for not. The second paragraph makes it pretty apparent what the NYT has an issue with.



> But CNN declined to include the specific allegations contained in the dossier — such as collusion between Mr. Trump’s team and Russian operatives — saying that its journalists could not independently verify them.
> 
> Roughly an hour later, BuzzFeed, in a break from typical journalistic practice, posted the document that fully detailed the unverified allegations to which CNN had alluded.



​


DB008 said:


> CNN also called Brietbart “the most prominent platform” for the Nazi salute and for “the white supremacists in this country.”




Expressing an opinion is not fake news. It's not even news unless your opinion matters. Did CNN make those remarks in an editorial (do they even have them???) or was it a contributor in an op-ed? The media in Australia seems to spend half their time slinging insults at each other.



DB008 said:


> CNN has also been reporting attacks by 'Trump supporters', but somehow the retractions when proven false never get the same coverage.




Do retractions in the media ever get as much coverage? 

I'm not saying CNN doesn't sensationalise news (personally I think they're pretty awful as a news company. It's McNews until a plane crashes, then it's round the clock plane crash news) or have a left leaning bias. As long as news companies have humans running them and working in them they will have biases. But it's a big leap to go from that to churning out fake news.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> I think the most apparent effect will be a massive increase in the wealth of the Trump family.
> 
> Kickbacks for government contracts awarded, special deals for Trump interests in foreign countries, that sort of thing.
> 
> I think it's highly likely he will overstep somewhere and be impeached. So he then just resigns and goes to live in the Bahamas.




Just wishful thinking on your party Rumpy.....You only think in a negative way.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I don't know if any of you have ever worked in the USA. I did many years ago. During the Vietnam War. America is a land of vast wealth and great opportunity. It will flourish under Trump who will take away all the regulations and treaties that are holding it back, provide jobs and lower prices .

In the USA, every poor guy hopes to be rich one day, not get an increase in his or her benefit cheque. The Hollywood clique are a mad pack of posers and degenerates who will stay. They would swallow crap to keep their mansions.

If I were young again I'd go to the States, I still have a Union Card and Social Security Number which I've kept for old times sake.

Bag the elites such as the Clintons and Hollywood, but don't bag the USA, in my opinion the greatest country in the world after Australia. Then Australia probably deserves a thread of it's own.

gg


----------



## SirRumpole

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I don't know if any of you have ever worked in the USA. I did many years ago. During the Vietnam War. America is a land of vast wealth and great opportunity. It will flourish under Trump who will take away all the regulations and treaties that are holding it back, provide jobs and lower prices .




And what will be the cost of this ? Less regulations mean more exploitation both of employees and consumers.

I'm not sure if any country has found the happy medium. Maybe Australia, NZ and Canada are reasonably close. Every country has it's own particular demographics that mean direct comparison is pretty meaningless.

What with the gun crazies and snake oil salesmen that are sure to arise under Trump, I think I'll stay here for a while. You are right in one thing though, this is the best country in the world.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I partially agree. People who have not lived in the USA don't understand that the vast majority there want to work and make a quid, even become rich. The fact there has never been a safety cage as we have here makes it such an exiting place for those who want to work. They have been badly let down during the Bush and Obama years by useless foreign wars, crooked bankers who were never brought to task and an attempt to provide a UK social security and health system. You watch. The USA will boom under Trump. He's starting with big Pharma and boy are they worried. Something like $87bn wiped off their value on Wall St. just this week.

gg


----------



## Smurf1976

MrBurns said:


> I've sold my shares and am building a bunker. People have been saying that he'll be ok but it's almost a certainty he will have a negative affect all round.




How I see it:

Trump has created high expectations through his various promises. Markets have gone almost straight up so this would seem to be priced in.

High expectations, in anything, are rarely met in practice and it's even rarer that they are exceeded. That goes for practically anything and in this case brings about a downside risk. Meets expectations = already priced in. Doesn't meet expectations = there's the downside risk.

I think it's also fair to say at this point that he doesn't seem as though he's going to be a conservative, "steer the ship steadily" type of President. He's far more radical than that so some "shocks" seem almost a given. There's more downside risk in the markets whenever those shocks come up.

From an Australian market perspective there doesn't seem much chance that we're going to gain from this point. Trump does what he says he'll do = already priced in and we don't stand to gain much anyway. Doesn't do what he says he will = US markets drop and we go down with them as usual. Sparks whatever panic / crisis = we'll go down with that as well. Given the apparent nature of the man it seems only a matter of time until there's some sort of crisis of confidence.

So I'm moderately bearish at this point regarding the short term. Longer term we'll have to wait and see whether reality matches the rhetoric but I'll note that of all occupations, politicians are known for breaking promises more than just about anyone else. Most plumbers will put your taps in as per their quote. Usually the band you bought tickets to see will actually perform. Most flights do depart and arrive somewhere close to on time. Etc. Politicians have a worse track record than just about anything.

I also see too many extremes at the moment. Just read an article on small business confidence in the US. It's a bullish themed article but the chart shows it's at the second highest level of the past 30 years and not far below the highest. How much better can things possibly get from this point? Plenty more examples of things at extremes if you look around.

Sell all my shares? No. But I've used the Trump rally as a trigger for reviewing the portfolio and an opportunity to sell into strength where appropriate. I'd do that anyway, but this rally has been both a trigger and an apparent opportunity in that regard. I'm still holding plenty of stocks though, just cut a few.


----------



## Tisme

While every citizen of the USA has the right to a political voice, Meryl Streep is more entitled than others. Who else would understand trial by media and the famous than the woman who mastered the Australian accent :


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> While every citizen of the USA has the right to a political voice, Meryl Streep is more entitled than others. Who else would understand trial by media and the famous than the woman who mastered the Australian accent :




Yes, totally agree. Thank God for white entitled female's telling the rest of us what to think. Where would we be without Hollywood actors guiding us in our life decisions


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Yes, totally agree. Thank God for white entitled female's telling the rest of us what to think. Where would we be without Hollywood actors guiding us in our life decisions



 If not on stage then in fatigues as part of Team America....f#@k yeah!!


----------



## Tisme

Tom Hardy:



> "We take Gotham from the corrupt! The rich! The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you... the people. Gotham is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming Blackgate, and freeing the oppressed! Step forward those who would serve. For and army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. The police will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great city... it will endure. Gotham will survive!"




Trump today:



> "Today's ceremony, however has very special meaning. Because today, we are not merely transferring power from one administration to another or from one party to another. But we are transferring power from Washington D.C. and giving it back to you... the people. For too long a small group in our nation's capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have born the cost. Washington flourished but the people did not share in its wealth. Politicians prospered but the jobs left and the factories closed. The establishment protected itself but not the citizens of our country. Their victories have not been your victories. Their triumphs have not been your triumphs and while they celebrated in our nation's capital, there was little to celebrate for struggling families all across our land. That all changes starting right here and right now because this moment is your moment. It belongs to you."


----------



## dutchie

Turnbull or LNP or Shorten or Labor adjusting to the new world (to Australia's advantage) under the Trump Presidency.................... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


----------



## Smurf1976

Well here we are. Donald Trump is now the actual President of the United States.

So what happens now?

My expectation is that reality at best matches the hype and more likely falls short. Political promises are rarely exceeded and I can't see Trump being different there. For the record I'd say the same no matter who had been elected or what party they represent - political promises are rarely exceeded no matter who makes them and typically reality falls short of the hype.

That being so, with markets seemingly already having priced in some sort of golden era under Trump, I'm thinking that the only way now would seem to be sideways or more likely down since the best case is already priced in and at best will be met and more likely fall short.

Thoughts?


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> Thoughts?





I come back to asking where he is going to get the money for all his promises. Infrastructure, military expansion and The Wall. Will he borrow it or just print it ? And what will be the effect on the US economy and it's subsequent effect on the rest of the world ?

There could be a  temporary economic resurgence but typically with that sort of personality in charge a few will get very rich and the rest won't gain much, and probably in the future money will have to be found to fund an almost certain expanded deficit.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> I come back to asking where he is going to get the money for all his promises. Infrastructure, military expansion and The Wall. Will he borrow it or just print it ? And what will be the effect on the US economy and it's subsequent effect on the rest of the world ?
> 
> There could be a  temporary economic resurgence but typically with that sort of personality in charge a few will get very rich and the rest won't gain much, and probably in the future money will have to be found to fund an almost certain expanded deficit.




They'll do as they have always done: borrow, then print to cheapen the amount owed. 

But that's not going to be enough, as it has never been enough... so you get those who have always pay for these kind of things: the law abiding tax payers (the plebs who can't afford tax havens or good advisors), and they'll double pay when their infrastructure and utilities and other "freebies" are reduced and cut, cost of living goes up....

It's what honest economists and political observers call public funding but private wealth.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> I come back to asking where he is going to get the money for all his promises. Infrastructure, military expansion and The Wall. Will he borrow it or just print it ? And what will be the effect on the US economy and it's subsequent effect on the rest of the world ?
> 
> There could be a  temporary economic resurgence but typically with that sort of personality in charge a few will get very rich and the rest won't gain much, and probably in the future money will have to be found to fund an almost certain expanded deficit.




The deficit under Obama is the highest in the history of the USA and is typical of the way a socialist manages the economy..... We are talking trillions.

http://www.concordcoalition.org/us-...7S_zdJArZMj7FlyZ2lQHZDN7Y90V9u43z4aAlO78P8HAQ

There are three things I would like see Trump undertake :-

a) Pull out of the corrupt Green United Nations.

b) Tear up the Paris Climate Change agreement as it is nothing more than a scam at the hands of the UN.

c) Stop Muslim immigration and deport all illegals.

Lots of money can be saved there but don't ask me to put a figure on it.....I do know Obama handed over a cheque for $500,000,000 to the UN Climate Change committee only last week.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> The deficit under Obama is the highest in the history of the USA and is typical of the way a socialist manages the economy..... We are talking trillions.
> 
> There are three things I would like see Trump undertake :-
> 
> a) Pull out of the corrupt Green United Nations.
> 
> b) Tear up the Paris Climate Change agreement as it is nothing more than a scam at the hands of the UN.
> 
> c) Stop Muslim immigration and deport all illegals.
> 
> Lots of money can be saved there but don't ask me to put a figure on it.....I do know Obama handed over a cheque for $500,000,000 to the UN Climate Change committee only last week.




Obama is a Socialist alright. Corporate socialist. 

Bailing out Wall St and Corporate America to the tune of a few trillions, yes, trillions. 

But to be fair, he did give the plebs $1Billion to bail them out of their mortgages in the GFC... just the criteria are so tough practically none of that money was ever claimed. 

That and he did give the poisoned people of Flint water filter. One per family. 

Woohoo.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Obama is a Socialist alright. Corporate socialist.
> 
> Bailing out Wall St and Corporate America to the tune of a few trillions, yes, trillions.
> 
> But to be fair, he did give the plebs $1Billion to bail them out of their mortgages in the GFC... just the criteria are so tough practically none of that money was ever claimed.
> 
> That and he did give the poisoned people of Flint water filter. One per family.
> 
> Woohoo.




And Obama leaves his office dirty and untidy for Trump to clean up...Typical socialist tactics......Borrow to the kilt and let the new government worry about how to pay it back......Nice fellow that Obama.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> And Obama leaves his office dirty and untidy for Trump to clean up...Typical socialist tactics......Borrow to the kilt and let the new government worry about how to pay it back......Nice fellow that Obama.




Trump is not worrying about paying anything back. He's promised tax cuts and increased spending. What do you think that will do to debt and deficit ?


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Trump is not worrying about paying anything back. He's promised tax cuts and increased spending. What do you think that will do to debt and deficit ?




He will no doubt make savings else where.....Like the UN....Paris Climate Change agreement...less foreign aid.....less social welfare by cutting out immigration from the ME...less spending on fighting other nations battles.....Guess you will have to wait and see.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> He will no doubt make savings else where.....Like the UN....Paris Climate Change agreement...less foreign aid.....less social welfare by cutting out immigration from the ME...less spending on fighting other nations battles.....Guess you will have to wait and see.




Yes, $100B for military bases per year; wars all over the entire Middle East with Iraq and Afghanistan costing about $5 trillions and counting; Averaging one military operations in Africa every two days; proxy wars with Russia; new deployments to Poland and other Western European states (weren't Poland used to be East European?)... there's a couple of coup in South America just the last couple of years... and now pivoting to Asia to take on China.... 

but ladies and gentleman, it's those social welfare, UN funding that's causing the deficit problem.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> And Obama leaves his office dirty and untidy for Trump to clean up...Typical socialist tactics......Borrow to the kilt and let the new government worry about how to pay it back......Nice fellow that Obama.





I heard Trump have Obama's purple drapes in the oval office replaced with gold ones. Seriously, read it on Reuters. 

Five bucks the oval office will be all marbled and brass and shiny soon.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> I heard Trump have Obama's purple drapes in the oval office replaced with gold ones. Seriously, read it on Reuters.
> 
> Five bucks the oval office will be all marbled and brass and shiny soon.




And why not?


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Yes, $100B for military bases per year; wars all over the entire Middle East with Iraq and Afghanistan costing about $5 trillions and counting; Averaging one military operations in Africa every two days; proxy wars with Russia; new deployments to Poland and other Western European states (weren't Poland used to be East European?)... there's a couple of coup in South America just the last couple of years... and now pivoting to Asia to take on China....
> 
> but ladies and gentleman, it's those social welfare, UN funding that's causing the deficit problem.




Where on Earth did you get all those figures?.....Care to back it up.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> And why not?




True. Why not.

Just some foreign dignitaries might not take you seriously in all that gold.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> True. Why not.
> 
> Just some foreign dignitaries might not take you seriously in all that gold.



The poster on the wall saying "We can nuke you into dust" should balance that out.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The poster on the wall saying "We can nuke you into dust" should balance that out.




Nukes are useless. 

For one, if you use it on defenceless state you'd also destroy all the potential loots and land grab that put you into that liberation mood in the first place.

For two, if you use nuke against state that can retaliate you and the world goes to heck too. 

And that's ignoring the war crimes, genocidal nonsense international laws and hippies UN countries are on about.


----------



## Wysiwyg

So capitalist thief Trump has started snapping fingers hey. You know, snap thou fingers, people jump and America is grating again.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I can see what's going to happen.  Trump's opponents will bait, bully and hound him relentlessly.  They want to see him snap and say or do something irrational.  They know that with continued harassment in large numbers, anyone will break down and Trump will be no exception.  So expect a very ugly and continuous bully campaign by CNN and the rest of them.  They're aiming to bring him down hard and will probably succeed.  It's pretty cruel.  Picture a pack of ravenous hyenas hanging off the neck of a lion.


----------



## Smurf1976

A random thought albeit one bordering on the "tin foil hat" variety.

It seems that the elites aren't keen on Trump with his protectionism and so on. That seems reasonably clear.

Shooting him, causing planes to crash and so on is a bit too obvious so can't see that happening.

One thing the elites could likely do that would make Trump unpopular and cause a generally bad perception, thus virtually ensuring he isn't re-elected in 2020, is to cause some sort of crisis.

Crisis? Well if enough elites are on side then one thing they could probably do is crash the stock market....

A bit "tin foil hat" type stuff but the thought has certainly occurred to me that Trump's opponents may seek to, and actually have the ability to, manufacture a crisis and that manipulating a key market would be one of the less detectable and more effective ways to do it.

Sending the oil price through the roof or would be another one if he manages to upset any of the key oil producing countries.

I could well be wrong about the detail but I get the distinct impression with all of this that *something* is going to happen of significance. All sorts of imbalances in the economy, huge expectations (in the financial markets) of the most controversial President in a very long time (ever?) and plenty of people with the ability to influence things who apparently don't like him. I just can't see that being smooth sailing ahead, someone's going to do *something* sooner or later surely?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Smurf1976 said:


> A random thought albeit one bordering on the "tin foil hat" variety.




I don't think it will be necessary.  Bullies have an instinctive knack to tune into their victim's weaknesses.   Trump's weakness is that he is tuned into social media and he cares what these dickheads think.  He's strong enough to bat off a small number, but if millions of people decide to attack on social media he will come unstuck.  Its pretty sad.  His family will suffer too.  I wish he'd given away the Presidential race and retired to Hawaii. 

The only hope is that he can learn extremely quickly and make massive changes to his self-image and general attitude.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> I can see what's going to happen.  Trump's opponents will bait, bully and hound him relentlessly.  They want to see him snap and say or do something irrational.  They know that with continued harassment in large numbers, anyone will break down and Trump will be no exception.  So expect a very ugly and continuous bully campaign by CNN and the rest of them.  They're aiming to bring him down hard and will probably succeed.  It's pretty cruel.  Picture a pack of ravenous hyenas hanging off the neck of a lion.




Say what?

It's all posturing. Give them another couple days and they'll be eating out of his tiny hands. Heck, he had already call on a few big-named anchors to Trump Tower last November, and they all went. Why? To keep that multi-million dollar job reading teleprompters that's why.

Just to remind ourselves, Trump is a billionaire who hates, absolutely loathes, coloured people, women, poor people. He picked generals, billionaires or hundred-millionaires for his Cabinet. He cheated kids and matured-aged students who wanted to learn from his "university" to advance themselves, to get a job... he fleeced those people.

And somehow he's a populous, a man of the people.

The media is already working for him. Though that'd be wrong only because he works for the owners of those 6 media company.


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> A random thought albeit one bordering on the "tin foil hat" variety.
> 
> It seems that the elites aren't keen on Trump with his protectionism and so on. That seems reasonably clear.
> 
> Shooting him, causing planes to crash and so on is a bit too obvious so can't see that happening.
> 
> One thing the elites could likely do that would make Trump unpopular and cause a generally bad perception, thus virtually ensuring he isn't re-elected in 2020, is to cause some sort of crisis.
> 
> Crisis? Well if enough elites are on side then one thing they could probably do is crash the stock market....
> 
> A bit "tin foil hat" type stuff but the thought has certainly occurred to me that Trump's opponents may seek to, and actually have the ability to, manufacture a crisis and that manipulating a key market would be one of the less detectable and more effective ways to do it.
> 
> Sending the oil price through the roof or would be another one if he manages to upset any of the key oil producing countries.
> 
> I could well be wrong about the detail but I get the distinct impression with all of this that *something* is going to happen of significance. All sorts of imbalances in the economy, huge expectations (in the financial markets) of the most controversial President in a very long time (ever?) and plenty of people with the ability to influence things who apparently don't like him. I just can't see that being smooth sailing ahead, someone's going to do *something* sooner or later surely?




They like him just as they like Obama. If not enough of them like him, he won't be where he is.

Just that when you're the hated group of multinationals, you have to be careful who you say you like or dislike. 

That and if you like them too much, the politicians might start to be complacent thinking they've done eonugh to repaid all those financial supports and start doing something for the plebs. Gotta keep your workers on edge.


----------



## howardbandy

Greetings --

I am an American citizen, currently living in America.  My wife and I have traveled extensively, including Australia and New Zealand, and lived outside the US for several years.  Among our families, friends, colleagues, and casual acquaintances, about 98 percent of us are truly frightened of Mr. Trump's vision of the future.   

The most we can do is hope for the best.  But we are preparing for the worst.

Best regards,  Howard


----------



## Logique

That's not what decent hard working Americans in the Rust Belt thought mate.

They are seeing how lucky they were to escape a Presidency of the preferred candidate of this current bunch  of street thugs, poseurs, bigots and sore losers.


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> Greetings --
> 
> I am an American citizen, currently living in America.  My wife and I have traveled extensively, including Australia and New Zealand, and lived outside the US for several years.  Among our families, friends, colleagues, and casual acquaintances, about 98 percent of us are truly frightened of Mr. Trump's vision of the future.
> 
> The most we can do is hope for the best.  But we are preparing for the worst.
> 
> Best regards,  Howard




Hello Howard,

Maybe it will take a disaster to remind Americans how lucky they really are.

I don't necessarily believe that a disaster will happen though, I think the US economy and Americans in general are too strong to let that happen. The political cycle will continue and Trump will be thrown out in 4 years if he messes things up.

Like Australians, Americans don't truly appreciate what a great society they have. It can always be made better of course. As long as we have a free press (?) and freedom of speech , the politicians have to listen (eventually).


----------



## Wysiwyg

Gringotts Bank said:


> The only hope is that he can learn extremely quickly and make massive changes to his self-image and general attitude.



i think you got him all wrong. He didn't get where he is with a head full of marshmallows.


----------



## Knobby22

Let's see what does.
At least he has a chance of making change. Some of the things he says are correct.
It ill be resting to see whether the Republicans him pass any law besides the tax cuts.


----------



## Tisme

howardbandy said:


> Greetings --
> 
> I am an American citizen, currently living in America.  My wife and I have traveled extensively, including Australia and New Zealand, and lived outside the US for several years.  Among our families, friends, colleagues, and casual acquaintances, about 98 percent of us are truly frightened of Mr. Trump's vision of the future.
> 
> The most we can do is hope for the best.  But we are preparing for the worst.
> 
> Best regards,  Howard




I'm guessing the celebratory bbq's haven't stopped in Texas? 

Being a Presbyterian, he knows that his self assessed Calvanistic work ethic of toil, frugality and discipline for grace make him a strong candidate for predestination ticket to his saviour, irregardless of whether he is a religious follower of the Westminster Standards or not. This allows him the freedom to change his mind about anything and not feel guilt.

I'm guessing similarly inclined puritanical wannabes in the USA also subscribe to the notion that the USA has lost its work for prosperity way and voted accordingly. That's one of the troubles with social media, it can reveal lifestyle truths that were previously obscured by official propaganda.... on this occasion taken advantage of by the Presidential tweeter.


----------



## McLovin

The new Trump press secretary is going to barrels of fun. Reminds me of that old Iraqi information minister. When the allies were storming Baghdad tearing down statues of Saddam and he said the statues had been taken down for cleaning.


----------



## wayneL

howardbandy said:


> Greetings --
> 
> I am an American citizen, currently living in America.  My wife and I have traveled extensively, including Australia and New Zealand, and lived outside the US for several years.  Among our families, friends, colleagues, and casual acquaintances, about 98 percent of us are truly frightened of Mr. Trump's vision of the future.
> 
> The most we can do is hope for the best.  But we are preparing for the worst.
> 
> Best regards,  Howard




98%? How eerily close to that other oftbquoted statistic is that?

That really only serves to prove your circle of influence is somewhat of an echo chamber. 

Of my American colleagues, it is the opposite,  98% are jubilant. (not that that is representative either)

As for fear for the future,  the continuation of the liberal <cough > dystopia under Clinton et al, is far more scary IMO. Oceana is truly not fat away if the speakers at yesterday's "protests " were any indication.  not a critical thought between the lot of them....  absurd.

Although the Donald will continue to supply much eye rolling and tut tuting from those brave enough to emerge from their safe space, this is infinitely better that the insidious gradualism,  taking us ever so indiscernibley but surely into Nineteeneightyfour


----------



## Tisme




----------



## Wysiwyg

Don said that is propaganda to sabotage his planned success as Prez.


----------



## Tisme

When truth goes walkabout


----------



## skc

McLovin said:


> The new Trump press secretary is going to barrels of fun. Reminds me of that old Iraqi information minister. When the allies were storming Baghdad tearing down statues of Saddam and he said the statues had been taken down for cleaning.




This is also hilarious (or sad, more precisely).


----------



## McLovin

skc said:


> This is also hilarious (or sad, more precisely).





Jesus. "Alternative facts".


----------



## skc

McLovin said:


> Jesus. "Alternative facts".




I like it at 4:09 of the video, even she had a chuckle on saying alternate facts herself.


----------



## noco

howardbandy said:


> Greetings --
> 
> I am an American citizen, currently living in America.  My wife and I have traveled extensively, including Australia and New Zealand, and lived outside the US for several years.  Among our families, friends, colleagues, and casual acquaintances, about 98 percent of us are truly frightened of Mr. Trump's vision of the future.
> 
> The most we can do is hope for the best.  But we are preparing for the worst.
> 
> Best regards,  Howard




98% are frightened of Trump????...How absurd.

We need a Trump type leader here in Australia and there is a political  revolution not far away.....There is momentum building in Australia for a change as we have two useless leaders in Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and a Fabian indoctrinated Labor opposition leader Bill Shorten who are both hell bent on destroying our great Nation...We also have a Green Party leader in Richard di Natalie who is associated with communism.

Terrorism is starting to increase in Australia and those three crazy leaders here are hell bent on bringing in more Muslims.

In true support for the UN stupidity, the left have pushed for more renewable energy, the closure of coal mines and coal fired power stations and as we have observed, South Australia is now branded as the BLACKOUT STATE because of their outrageous policy on renewable energy. 

We now have a One Nation leader who is now twice as popular as both  Turbull and Shorten added together and why is this happening because she is listening to what people want......She is saying what a majority in Australia  are thinking but afraid to speak their mind....I am one on this Forum who is outspoken on these very issues and have over the past 9 years been ridiculed, intimidated and character assassinated...I have been accused of being a racist, homophobic and what ever the left can lay their tongue on.

But Howard it is like pouring water on a duck's back to me...It does not worry me in the least....

Just follow this thread and watch the reaction.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...dvisor-says-climate-change-a-UN-led-ruse.html


----------



## Smurf1976

Where can Donald Trump take us?

Judging by the ASX today the answer to that question would seem to be "down".


----------



## noco

Smurf1976 said:


> Where can Donald Trump take us?
> 
> Judging by the ASX today the answer to that question would seem to be "down".




Where you have an action you will always get a reaction.


----------



## Wysiwyg

skc said:


> This is also hilarious (or sad, more precisely).



Buy media stocks? The professional media should wisen up and focus on real issues but the drama is irresistible and modern day mass media is wildfire.


----------



## SirRumpole

*Trump must conform with constitution or he will be removed, ex Bush adviser Richard Painter says*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...r-be-removed-former-bush-adviser-says/8205094



Do we think he will last the distance ?


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> ...I am one on this Forum who is outspoken on these very issues and have over the past 9 years been ridiculed, intimidated and character assassinated...I have been accused of being a racist, homophobic and what ever the left can lay their tongue on.




Diddums LOL.  And here's me thinking I was the only racist and homophobe in the village


----------



## moXJO

I'm loving trump in the news. He's like the worlds most powerful troll.  The left continues to do the exact same thing that got him elected in the first place.
Predictions: Four long years of salty tears.


----------



## PZ99

We will have Donald Trump here soon enough... grabbing this country by the Tassie just like his predecessors and making us an even bigger terrorist target in the process


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> *Trump must conform with constitution or he will be removed, ex Bush adviser Richard Painter says*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...r-be-removed-former-bush-adviser-says/8205094
> 
> 
> 
> Do we think he will last the distance ?




He's already in breach of the emolument clause of the US Constitution, and could be impeached. Once his popularity falls the GOP will slay him like the ALP slayed Rudd. And then all the half-wits who think he's the Messiah will be angry and start setting stuff on fire.

Wait and watch.


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> We will have Donald Trump here soon enough... grabbing this country by the Tassie just like his predecessors and making us an even bigger terrorist target in the process




The usual dangerous situation of a sycophantic Liberal Party here and a Republican Party in USA = armed conflict and US imperialism.... they whistle and we come running.

I blame the Labor Party, Bill Shorten and its WW2 leader for defensively aligning us with the US instead of our traditional English masters.


----------



## moXJO

McLovin said:


> He's already in breach of the emolument clause of the US Constitution, and could be impeached. Once his popularity falls the GOP will slay him like the ALP slayed Rudd. And then all the half-wits who think he's the Messiah will be angry and start setting stuff on fire.
> 
> Wait and watch.



Tpp gone and already bombed the $hit out of isis on the first day. I'd say he is keeping with the populist position. The leftist media is doing its best to cut him down to no avail.

For Australia- he may very well be the messiah. If we move too closer ties with Asia and further away from the US, it can only be a good thing.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Tpp gone and already bombed the $hit out of isis on the first day. I'd say he is keeping with the populist position. The leftist media is doing its best to cut him down to no avail.
> 
> For Australia- he may very well be the messiah. If we move too closer ties with Asia and further away from the US, it can only be a good thing.




I'm rather disappointed at the lack of Nostradamus posts on facebook


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I'm rather disappointed at the lack of Nostradamus posts on facebook




Or Revelations for that matter

*And he cried out in a mighty voice: “Fallen, fallen is Washington the great! She has become a lair of demons. She is a haunt for every unclean spirit, a hideout for every unclean bird, and a hold for every detestable beast.…*


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> We need a Trump type* leader *here in Australia and there is a political  revolution not far away.....




So far Trump has been divisive and inconsistent, has divided and polarised people.  Is deeply unpopular and unpalatable to the majority of population outside the US.  He has zero military or political experience, and is an narcissistic bully.  Picking fights with celebrities and individual journalists is childish and unprofessional - surely he has more important issues to focus on!!

Many of his 'policy' ideas are illegal or impossible to implement.  His fiscal policies are outrageously expensive.

Not the characteristics of a great leader, in my opinion.  But I guess we will all find out soon enough.  Happy to be proven wrong.


----------



## wayneL

Junior,

Division?

Look no further than Barrack Hussein Obama for divisive politics


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Junior,
> 
> Division?
> 
> Look no further than Barrack Hussein Obama for divisive politics





Elected for successive terms .


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Elected for successive terms .



What does that have to do with diviseness?

That only demarcates the divide


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> *Trump must conform with constitution or he will be removed, ex Bush adviser Richard Painter says*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...r-be-removed-former-bush-adviser-says/8205094
> 
> Do we think he will last the distance ?





wayneL said:


> What does that have to do with diviseness?
> 
> That only demarcates the divide




America is a house long divided and The Donald is working very hard to unite it soon enough. I mean, nothing unite a country more than having a couple serious (and more than a few not so serious) enemies.


----------



## Smurf1976

Junior said:


> is an narcissistic bully.




That's my impression having dealt with a few such people fairly extensively in the past. That said, that impression comes via the mainstream media who seem to simply not like the man for (I assume) ideological reasons so there's no certainty the public isn't being manipulated by the media in terms of how he's being portrayed. 

Easy way to be sure with someone like that is to cut off their supply and see what happens next. A narcissist will either very quickly find a new target and if that's not possible then you'd better be standing well back when the outright explosion occurs as it's quite spectacular. Been there, seen this play out and it's not pretty. Google "narcissistic rage" if you want to know more. 

Might be a bit hard to actually try it with the President of the USA however.


----------



## Tisme

Trump has prohibited overseas US funded organisations from discussing abortion= reinstated Regan policy.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Trump has prohibited overseas US funded organisations from discussing abortion= reinstated Regan policy.




In God we trust.


----------



## PZ99

Quite ironic for the US to scrap the TPP whilst using our playground to further their pivot to Asia. 
In two years the odds are _shorten_ing on us sending them an Electricity Bill


----------



## Tink

_How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. 
And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin._

Ronald Reagan

----------------------------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/is-political-correctness-going-too-far.18326/page-15

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-left.31648/


----------



## SirRumpole

PZ99 said:


> Quite ironic for the US to scrap the TPP whilst using our playground to further their pivot to Asia.
> In two years the odds are _shorten_ing on us sending them an Electricity Bill




Ha ha very good. 

The worst thing about the TPP is the Investor-State Dispute Settlement clauses.

Countries need to be able to pass their own laws without foreign companies sticking their noses in. If the ISDS are in, then we should be out.

http://aftinet.org.au/cms/isds-sue-governments-tpp-2013


----------



## Ves

Tink said:


> _How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin.
> And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin._
> 
> Ronald Reagan



The most amusing part about that Reagan quote is that 99% of people cannot be anti-Communist by default.


----------



## McLovin

Is it possible to be a sore winner?



> WASHINGTON — President Trump used his first official meeting with congressional leaders on Monday to falsely claim that millions of unauthorized immigrants had robbed him of a popular vote majority, a return to his obsession with the election’s results even as he seeks support for his legislative agenda.
> 
> The claim, which he has made before on Twitter, has been judged untrue by numerous fact-checkers. The new president’s willingness to bring it up at a White House reception in the State Dining Room is an indication that he continues to dwell on the implications of his popular vote loss even after assuming power.
> 
> As part of that conversation, Mr. Trump asserted that between three million and five million unauthorized immigrants voted for Mrs. Clinton. That is similar to a Twitter message he posted in late November that said he would have won the popular vote “if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally.”




https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/us/politics/donald-trump-congress-democrats.html

Five million illegal immigrants voted. No proof of course. I guess it's handy to continue to question the system in case he loses the next election.


----------



## luutzu

PZ99 said:


> Quite ironic for the US to scrap the TPP whilst using our playground to further their pivot to Asia.
> In two years the odds are _shorten_ing on us sending them an Electricity Bill




McCain is proposing a bill to spend $US7.9B [?] over five years in the AsiaPacific region to flex some US muscles. Hoping that that'll scare the Chinese away from pretty much only two potential wars of great strategic and economic importance to its own survival and continued development.

Forget about face saving and grand standing stuff, if you're China, why in the world would you back down now that your main adversary is stretched all over the globe, where if they retreat an inch they'll lose an entire country (again). 

We're in quite dangerous times where the global power centres has shifted somewhat, and where alliances can change very quickly... and the current global power has as its commander in chief a dodgy salesman who spent the first couple of days yelling at the Media over how bias they are about how many people turn up to his Inauguration.

Then to make it more interesting, he flood his cabinet with stateless businessmen, mad-dog generals and religious nut jobs.

It'd be a miracle if the world get out of his decade without a major war between two major powers.


----------



## basilio

One week into Presidency and President Alternative Facts has
    Reinstated torture at CIA black sites
    Issued a ban on any US funded organisation talking about abortion or contraception
    Started an inquiry into totally bogus claims of voter fraud (so that the system can be re manipulated)
    Starts the Mexican wall

I wonder when sufficient people with brains and balls will say "that's it" and pull the plug on this lying megalomaniac


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> One week into Presidency and President Alternative Facts has
> Reinstated torture at CIA black sites
> Issued a ban on any US funded organisation talking about abortion or contraception
> Started an inquiry into totally bogus claims of voter fraud (so that the system can be re manipulated)
> Starts the Mexican wall
> 
> I wonder when sufficient people with brains and balls will say "that's it" and pull the plug on this lying megalomaniac




You forgot to mention he is pulling out of the UN, stop Muslim immigration and will tear up the fake UN Paris agreement.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> You forgot to mention he is pulling out of the UN, stop Muslim immigration and will tear up the fake UN Paris agreement.




Stupid, useless UN. Wanting to unite the nations of the world, save the children, rescue refugees, establish human rights, save the planet, stop war crimes (or at least raised the issue quietly). 

Who need useless things like that ey noco? 

What the world need is a man with tiny hands to grab the world by the... 

I guess every Rome has its Nero and Caligula.


----------



## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> One week into Presidency and President Alternative Facts has
> Reinstated torture at CIA black sites
> Issued a ban on any US funded organisation talking about abortion or contraception
> Started an inquiry into totally bogus claims of voter fraud (so that the system can be re manipulated)
> Starts the Mexican wall




Sounds like a typical right wing "rule by fear not facts" type to me.


----------



## SuperGlue

Mexico: We will not pay for Trump border wall.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38753826

Trump forgot that he was/is a business man, when he tells his employees to jump they jump.
In politics, it is different. they will say f----u  you go jump.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Stupid, useless UN. Wanting to unite the nations of the world, save the children, rescue refugees, establish human rights, save the planet, stop war crimes (or at least raised the issue quietly).
> 
> Who need useless things like that ey noco?
> 
> What the world need is a man with tiny hands to grab the world by the...
> 
> I guess every Rome has its Nero and Caligula.




Well, the UN ain't what it used to be 70 years ago and the critics in the link below will tell you why.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/what-has-the-un-achieved-united-nations

*A decade ago, the UN launched its most enduring report into reform. A panel – co-chaired by the prime ministers of Mozambique, Norway and Pakistan, and including the then British chancellor, Gordon Brown – wrote a devastating document. It ticked off criticisms which said the UN was badly failing those it was supposed to help. Its work on development was described as “often fragmented and weak”; its governance was called “inefficient and ineffective”.


The report said the UN’s taste for setting goals at the expense of delivering results failed the poorest and most vulnerable. It also criticised a system of funding for many UN programmes in which officials had to beg for money from governments year after year, making it difficult to plan. 

“Cooperation between organisations has been hindered by competition for funding, mission creep and by outdated business practices,” it said. “In some sectors, such as water and energy, more than 20 UN agencies are active and compete for limited resources without a clear collaborative framework. More than 30 UN agencies and programmes have a stake in environmental management.”

The organisation has grown so big that at times it is working against itself. Critics point to large numbers of support staff doing ill-defined jobs. Staff costs account for two-thirds or more of some UN agencies’ outgoings. “Performance management is a joke,” said one official. “Almost everyone gets ‘above average’ in their assessment.”

The UN is so fragmented that each agency has its own IT system. 

The reform report noted that about one-third of the UN operations in 60 countries had a budget of less than $2m per agency, which meant that they could do little more than afford the cost of running the office. 

The report proposed extensive changes to promote greater collaboration and efficiency under a programme called Delivering as One. This included myriad UN agencies in a single country coming under the authority of one official, and working more closely with the governments of those countries, which often had no idea what the UN was doing. 

*






 It is hard to believe this has come from the Guardian......Maybe they speaking the truth for once.


----------



## basilio

Yeah. Great article Noco.  Well balanced. informative eye opening.  Certainly makes one think about the need to reform the UN and the difficulties of doing so.

Up to the usual excellent standards of The Guardian.  Maybe you should include it on your reading list ?


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Yeah. Great article Noco.  Well balanced. informative eye opening.  Certainly makes one think about the need to reform the UN and the difficulties of doing so.
> 
> Up to the usual excellent standards of The Guardian.  Maybe you should include it on your reading list ?




The problem is Bas they often distort the truth by their own admission.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump has just pi$$ed on Germany , so are we next ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-26/fear-and-loathing-as-europe-faces-trump/8214876


----------



## Smurf1976

SirRumpole said:


> Trump has just pi$$ed on Germany , so are we next ?




Something I don't get is the ASX being as high as it is.

With Trump in and his actions thus far you'd have to be an extreme optimist to think that Australia wasn't going to be hit in some way. And yet optimism seems to be exactly what the markets are expressing.

Doesn't make sense to me so I guess I'm missing something.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Well, the UN ain't what it used to be 70 years ago and the critics in the link below will tell you why.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/what-has-the-un-achieved-united-nations
> 
> *A decade ago, the UN launched its most enduring report into reform. A panel – co-chaired by the prime ministers of Mozambique, Norway and Pakistan, and including the then British chancellor, Gordon Brown – wrote a devastating document. It ticked off criticisms which said the UN was badly failing those it was supposed to help. Its work on development was described as “often fragmented and weak”; its governance was called “inefficient and ineffective”.
> 
> 
> The report said the UN’s taste for setting goals at the expense of delivering results failed the poorest and most vulnerable. It also criticised a system of funding for many UN programmes in which officials had to beg for money from governments year after year, making it difficult to plan.
> 
> “Cooperation between organisations has been hindered by competition for funding, mission creep and by outdated business practices,” it said. “In some sectors, such as water and energy, more than 20 UN agencies are active and compete for limited resources without a clear collaborative framework. More than 30 UN agencies and programmes have a stake in environmental management.”
> 
> The organisation has grown so big that at times it is working against itself. Critics point to large numbers of support staff doing ill-defined jobs. Staff costs account for two-thirds or more of some UN agencies’ outgoings. “Performance management is a joke,” said one official. “Almost everyone gets ‘above average’ in their assessment.”
> 
> The UN is so fragmented that each agency has its own IT system.
> 
> The reform report noted that about one-third of the UN operations in 60 countries had a budget of less than $2m per agency, which meant that they could do little more than afford the cost of running the office.
> 
> The report proposed extensive changes to promote greater collaboration and efficiency under a programme called Delivering as One. This included myriad UN agencies in a single country coming under the authority of one official, and working more closely with the governments of those countries, which often had no idea what the UN was doing.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is hard to believe this has come from the Guardian......Maybe they speaking the truth for once.





Was listening to some old lecture's Q&A by Chomsky and thought his explanation got more to the core of this right-wing hatred for the UN.

He explained that "the world" see the UN as great, as all that is good and right in the world all the the first two decades after WW2. 

The reason "the world" all believe that was that "the world" is mainly the US and its allies, and the world was at war with the Soviets - God-loving Capitalist versus Godless Red Capitalist D)and all that.

With most Third World countries still being colonies and otherwise weak and stateless, "the world" vote and take actions against the Soviets. So the UN was awesome for that purpose.

Then as more and more countries became independent and join the UN, and them not automatically liking their former colonial masters for some reason... the UN became more difficult to unite against the Soviets, more difficult to do as the US like them to. You know, not blindly going into Iraq on flimsy WMD evidence and before that not willy nilly agreeing to the peacekeeping in South Americas and elsewhere.

This then make the UN a bit annoying. Hence, the cut in its funding from rich nations, the media campaign against what it stands for.

That's not to say that the UN and its member states are all good etc. But a big part of its demise and hatred came about because it no longer serves certain powerful interests. Such interests would want to de-legitimise international laws because going with that would often put more than a few leaders in prison for violating international laws.

Hence, when Iraq needs to be liberated and the UN says no, the UN is irrelevant and weak. Who needs hippies telling US what to do.

But when China take over disputed corals and territories... look! They're breaking international law and conventions.


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I don't get is the ASX being as high as it is.
> 
> With Trump in and his actions thus far you'd have to be an extreme optimist to think that Australia wasn't going to be hit in some way. And yet optimism seems to be exactly what the markets are expressing.
> 
> Doesn't make sense to me so I guess I'm missing something.




My guess is that the Market believes that Trump will throw away environmental regulations, CC stuff, get friendly with Russia to end the sanctions, start a few proxy wars with China... all will lead to more demand in fossil, oil, arms and free trade.

Bad for the world and future generations, good for the bottom line next few quarters though


----------



## howardbandy

luutzu said:


> My guess is that the Market believes that Trump will throw away environmental regulations, CC stuff, get friendly with Russia to end the sanctions, start a few proxy wars with China... all will lead to more demand in fossil, oil, arms and free trade.
> 
> Bad for the world and future generations, good for the bottom line next few quarters though




Judging from the individuals Mr. Trump is selecting to lead the government agencies, LuuTzu's guess is likely correct.

Appointees proposed so far --  A Secretary of Energy who wants to dismantle the Department of Energy.  A Secretary of State who has announced that the US will go to war with China -- real war, not cold war, not a trade war, not a proxy war -- over the islands.  An Attorney General whose record of human rights activities is near-criminal.  Supreme Court appointees who are actively opposed to equality.  A Secretary of Education who opposes public education.  The Director of the Federal Communications Committee who opposes net neutrality.  A Secretary of the Treasury whose company he headed was directly responsible for many foreclosures during, and contributing to, the financial crisis of 2008.  The list goes on and on.

The consequences are already evident.  For example, disregard for the environment has emboldened the State of Wyoming to fine companies that use renewable energy rather than fossil fuels.  Insulting Mexico about a wall that will never be built, and would be of no value if built, but that will severely and adversely affect US - Mexico relations.    

All headed by an infantile, egotistical, pathological liar.  The parallels in history are too scary to list.

Very few have been confirmed to date, but that does not really matter.  It is unlikely that better -- meaning more friendly to the world and all its inhabitants and all its creatures -- candidates will be proposed.  What we see so far is likely what we will get -- even if these particular individuals are replaced by others.

One of the real tragedies is that the policies and actions of the US will not be contained within the US. 

I think LuuTzu is right -- a few quarters that are good for the bottom line.  I worry that those few quarters will be followed by a few centuries of dark ages.

Thanks for listening,  Howard


----------



## Tisme

12/1/16



> "We will destroy ISIS. At the same time, we will pursue a new foreign policy that finally learns from the mistakes of the past. We will stop looking to topple regimes and overthrow governments, folks," Trump told attendees at the U.S. Bank Arena. "Our goal is stability, not chaos because we wanna rebuild our country. It's time."


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> I think LuuTzu is right -- a few quarters that are good for the bottom line. I worry that those few quarters will be followed by a few centuries of dark ages.





Howard, there is a thing called an election, in 4 years. Trump only barely scraped in this time, if he stuffs it up do you think he will be re-elected ? If he is then I'm afraid you will get what you deserve.


----------



## noco

howardbandy said:


> Judging from the individuals Mr. Trump is selecting to lead the government agencies, LuuTzu's guess is likely correct.
> 
> Appointees proposed so far --  A Secretary of Energy who wants to dismantle the Department of Energy.  A Secretary of State who has announced that the US will go to war with China -- real war, not cold war, not a trade war, not a proxy war -- over the islands.  An Attorney General whose record of human rights activities is near-criminal.  Supreme Court appointees who are actively opposed to equality.  A Secretary of Education who opposes public education.  The Director of the Federal Communications Committee who opposes net neutrality.  A Secretary of the Treasury whose company he headed was directly responsible for many foreclosures during, and contributing to, the financial crisis of 2008.  The list goes on and on.
> 
> The consequences are already evident.  For example, disregard for the environment has emboldened the State of Wyoming to fine companies that use renewable energy rather than fossil fuels.  Insulting Mexico about a wall that will never be built, and would be of no value if built, but that will severely and adversely affect US - Mexico relations.
> 
> All headed by an infantile, egotistical, pathological liar.  The parallels in history are too scary to list.
> 
> Very few have been confirmed to date, but that does not really matter.  It is unlikely that better -- meaning more friendly to the world and all its inhabitants and all its creatures -- candidates will be proposed.  What we see so far is likely what we will get -- even if these particular individuals are replaced by others.
> 
> One of the real tragedies is that the policies and actions of the US will not be contained within the US.
> 
> I think LuuTzu is right -- a few quarters that are good for the bottom line.  I worry that those few quarters will be followed by a few centuries of dark ages.
> 
> Thanks for listening,  Howard




So Howard do you think Obama was better than what you think Trump might be and that Hillary Clinton would have been better than Obama?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Howard, there is a thing called an election, in 4 years. Trump only barely scraped in this time, if he stuffs it up do you think he will be re-elected ? If he is then I'm afraid you will get what you deserve.



Just scraped in?

You did actually see the election results didn't you Horace? Trump gave Hilary and absolute whopping according to the college system that is used to decide president.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Just scraped in?
> 
> You did actually see the election results didn't you Horace? Trump gave Hilary and absolute whopping according to the college system that is used to decide president.




The college system is BS. Clinton won the popular vote.


----------



## Smurf1976

luutzu said:


> My guess is that the Market believes that Trump will throw away environmental regulations, CC stuff, get friendly with Russia to end the sanctions, start a few proxy wars with China...




I was definitely expecting a more negative view (in the market) in Australia. I can see how US business might benefit but I just can't see what's really in it for Australia. At most if might keep iron ore and coal prices up for a while if China starts building a lot of military hardware etc but beyond that I'm not seeing it. How do we benefit from rising protectionism and the US moving to boost its own production in two of our key exports (coal and gas)?

Obviously the market thinks otherwise.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> The college system is BS. Clinton won the popular vote.




So did Bernie Sanders. He came out of nowhere and got very close to the popular votes as Hillary. And that's without much money, without name recognition, without the Clinton and DNC machine working together to screw him over. 

There were voter fraud, restrictive closed primaries that only allow Democrat voters, registered at least six months in some states, to participate. 

Then there's the Superdelegates who were all in Clinton's pockets long before the race even got started.

So not only were Bill Clinton's and Obama's policies alienated the Democratic (and independent/neutral voters) base, leading to voters wanting anyone but the establishment... they intentionally work against a popular candidate that is Sanders... all just so Hillary can be president. 

If anyone's to blame for Trump, blame the Clintons and Obama and his DNC.


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> I was definitely expecting a more negative view (in the market) in Australia. I can see how US business might benefit but I just can't see what's really in it for Australia. At most if might keep iron ore and coal prices up for a while if China starts building a lot of military hardware etc but beyond that I'm not seeing it. How do we benefit from rising protectionism and the US moving to boost its own production in two of our key exports (coal and gas)?
> 
> Obviously the market thinks otherwise.




We may come under pressure from the US not to sell coal and iron ore to China in the event of a conflict.

Will the US compensate us for lost revenue ?


----------



## SirRumpole

The resistance begins. In a Twitter account, far , far away...



*US government scientists go 'rogue' on Twitter in defiance of Trump gag orders*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-27/us-federal-departments-go-rogue-on-twitter/8216352


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> I was definitely expecting a more negative view (in the market) in Australia. I can see how US business might benefit but I just can't see what's really in it for Australia. At most if might keep iron ore and coal prices up for a while if China starts building a lot of military hardware etc but beyond that I'm not seeing it. How do we benefit from rising protectionism and the US moving to boost its own production in two of our key exports (coal and gas)?
> 
> Obviously the market thinks otherwise.




Maybe the Market reckons that since we've sold a large chunk of our assets and resources to China for lots of cold hard dollars, the coming war with China will mean us Aussies get to take it all back and there's not a thing they can do about it. 

Except maybe send in a couple of fleets and airborne battalions? Who'd be crazy enough to do that right?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> We may come under pressure from the US not to sell coal and iron ore to China in the event of a conflict.
> 
> Will the US compensate us for lost revenue ?




They'll compensate us by not Liberating us the same way they do other third world countries with lotsa natural resources and a couple of canoes


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> 12/1/16




My brother sent me a link from WashingPost extract of his CIA speech.

The dude spent some 5 minutes of a 20 minute speech talking about the size of his Inauguration crowd and how pictures apparently do lie.

A bit unreal.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> The resistance begins. In a Twitter account, far , far away...
> 
> 
> 
> *US government scientists go 'rogue' on Twitter in defiance of Trump gag orders*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-27/us-federal-departments-go-rogue-on-twitter/8216352





Heard that the Women's March on Washington the same day was larger than his Inauguration. Some of the signs was really funny... "This pu$$y grabs back!"

Then there's thousands of people gathering in NY etc. on very short notice to protest his DAPL pipeline, anti-abortion executive orders etc.

He might be great for American democracy. Or the end of it.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> The college system is BS. Clinton won the popular vote.




About 70k votes out of 130m would have flipped the election. Not that it really matters. Whatever you may think of Trump he won the election.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> About 70k votes out of 130m would have flipped the election. Not that it really matters. Whatever you may think of Trump he won the election.




No it doesn't alter the fact that he is President. Whether the majority think he is legitimate and what they do about it is another matter.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> The college system is BS. Clinton won the popular vote.




Rules is rules.....Clinton lost...Get over it.

The liberals won 52% of the preferred prefernce vote in South Australia last election but Jay Wetherill  became Premier and the Labor Party won....Now how about that?


----------



## McLovin

Your Donny Trump suit is about to go up 20%.


----------



## luutzu

howardbandy said:


> Judging from the individuals Mr. Trump is selecting to lead the government agencies, LuuTzu's guess is likely correct.
> 
> Appointees proposed so far --  A Secretary of Energy who wants to dismantle the Department of Energy.  A Secretary of State who has announced that the US will go to war with China -- real war, not cold war, not a trade war, not a proxy war -- over the islands.  An Attorney General whose record of human rights activities is near-criminal.  Supreme Court appointees who are actively opposed to equality.  A Secretary of Education who opposes public education.  The Director of the Federal Communications Committee who opposes net neutrality.  A Secretary of the Treasury whose company he headed was directly responsible for many foreclosures during, and contributing to, the financial crisis of 2008.  The list goes on and on.
> 
> The consequences are already evident.  For example, disregard for the environment has emboldened the State of Wyoming to fine companies that use renewable energy rather than fossil fuels.  Insulting Mexico about a wall that will never be built, and would be of no value if built, but that will severely and adversely affect US - Mexico relations.
> 
> All headed by an infantile, egotistical, pathological liar.  The parallels in history are too scary to list.
> 
> Very few have been confirmed to date, but that does not really matter.  It is unlikely that better -- meaning more friendly to the world and all its inhabitants and all its creatures -- candidates will be proposed.  What we see so far is likely what we will get -- even if these particular individuals are replaced by others.
> 
> One of the real tragedies is that the policies and actions of the US will not be contained within the US.
> 
> I think LuuTzu is right -- a few quarters that are good for the bottom line.  I worry that those few quarters will be followed by a few centuries of dark ages.
> 
> Thanks for listening,  Howard





He'll definitely be very good for the corporate welfare state. 

Saw William Black interviewed on the Real News Network and the guy couldn't help but laugh out loud at the (unintentional) jokes Trump pulls with each of his Cabinet pick - like what you were saying, picking people to lead department they practically want to destroy or make a buck out of.

The nominee that got Black to laugh so hard was Trump's pick for what's her name that own and ran the WWF wrestling monopoly as Secretary of the US Small Business Administration.

It's funny because she got no experience running any department beside making money and donating $7.8M or so to Trump's campaign. Funny because she made her money by not employing her wrestlers but forced them to be their own independent business contractor. That way, if they suffer injuries, then they better be insured. No need to pay them healthcare, benefits etc. etc.

Then what wouldn't be so funny is when she's confirmed, a department that was designed to help small business and your average entrepreneur getting some tax breaks and cheap loans to start something... well those dreamers can stay in their garrage as she redefine what is a "small business". Her WWF is a small business and why would anyone want to put too much regulations on small business, right? But they will get cheaper loans from gov't, more tax breaks.

But just to show that Trump isn't a total idiot... his recent order to gut contraception from gov't benefits... while being sold as pro-life, family value and all that, is going to shift the current $1B+ American families currently receives to help with birth control. 

Then there's the planned 20% tax on goods from Mexico to pay for that wall. Wouldn't US consumers ultimately pay for that tax increase? Will all of that extra cash goes towards the wall or somewhere else?


----------



## luutzu

2 1/2 minutes to Midnight.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-doomsdayclock-idUSKBN15A2JJ


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Then there's the planned 20% tax on goods from Mexico to pay for that wall. Wouldn't US consumers ultimately pay for that tax increase? Will all of that extra cash goes towards the wall or somewhere else?




Of course it will. It's a tax on US consumers. Who do you think will be the first to complain about the rising cost of products? The prez has pretty limited scope to raise taxes without congressional approval, so I'd put it more in the sabre rattling column at the moment.

Maybe Mexico could lease some land to China for a military base along the border to recoup some of the money they miss out on.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Of course it will. It's a tax on US consumers. Who do you think will be the first to complain about the rising cost of products? The prez has pretty limited scope to raise taxes without congressional approval, so I'd put it more in the sabre rattling column at the moment.
> 
> Maybe Mexico could lease some land to China for a military base along the border to recoup some of the money they miss out on.




Can't be military base though, that'll lead to WW3 overnight. Only the US can have military bases right up to anybody's door.. that's just for their security. For them to think about US security, that's asking for it.

Though the Chinese can move in to teach Trump how to build that Great Wall of 'Merka. He can conscript any Mexican trying to get in for the job... free and cheap labour. Once the fence is built, America will be great again.

Imagine the poor kids a couple generation away attending Donald J. Trump High School. Fark me.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> Maybe Mexico could lease some land to China for a military base along the border to recoup some of the money they miss out on.




Not as silly as it sounds. They may take some hints from the Philippines . There could be another Bay of Pigs fiasco.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Not as silly as it sounds. They may take some hints from the Philippines . There could be another Bay of Pigs fiasco.




Please explain.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Please explain.




President Duterte seems to be aligning himself with China, although that was when Obama criticised him for shooting drug dealers.

Trump may have a different view.

https://www.rt.com/news/369956-duterte-china-philippines-arms/


----------



## skc

McLovin said:


> Maybe Mexico could lease some land to China for a military base along the border to recoup some of the money they miss out on.




Speaking to a few friends from US the other night... they remain convinced that Trump can't afford to build the wall without using illegal immigrants.

I suppose he could order the wall be built by illegal labourers and simply have them paint the Mexican side of the wall at the end of it.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> President Duterte seems to be aligning himself with China, although that was when Obama criticised him for shooting drug dealers.
> 
> Trump may have a different view.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/news/369956-duterte-china-philippines-arms/




Yea, Duterte is playing with fire. 
Though maybe he's playing both sides. See how far he can get free stuff from both sides before one of them call it in. Then it'd be some other new president's problem as he either disappear completely or off to some resort island somewhere.

I heard that Obama's admin funded the guy's Judge Dredge campaign. Providing systems and surveillance to Phillippine's police force specifically for this clean-up. Then they call him nasty when he shifts toward China.

Makes sense, I mean international politics don't care much about human rights and other niceties. Whoever makes you the most money win your support.


----------



## Wysiwyg

So high I can't get over it
So low I can't get under it
So wide I can't get round it
Oh, rock my soul


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> The college system is BS. Clinton won the popular vote.



the United States is a federation, Horace . The president is not selected via a popular vote and the system was designed specifically to prevent the more populus States dominating via their greater numbers. Therefore it is not BS, and as intended. the college system work absolutely perfectly


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> the United States is a federation, Horace . The president is not selected via a popular vote and the system was designed specifically to prevent the more populus States dominating via their greater numbers. Therefore it is not BS, and as intended. the college system work absolutely perfectly




That's the populous anti-populous argument. Doesn't make much sense once you think about it though Sifu, not from a democratic point of view.

First, in a democracy, the majority ought to have their say, no? All votes are equal and what not.

Second, this electoral college rule was design not to protect the interests of the people of the less populous state as is claimed, but was designed so that slave-owning states, having agreed that slaves are 2/3rd human and other non-White Male are not citizens... well, they too ought to have two Senators etc. etc.

The thing I like about a Democracy as we know it today is that when the populous are sick of one party, whoever happen to be their current leader get to be scapegoated, booed and shipped off to some nice retirement village. Then the population are told that it was all the other side's fault and so get to pick the same alternative.

Then the "new" alternative do the same bs, screw the population to serve their own class (or if they happen to be from new money or no-money come good, serve their masters)... then once the plebs get upset at being screwed again... new ads, new elections and it repeats.

It's a great system, the kind wise (and wiley) kings and emperors play when they pick some idiot with a big ego, give him a grand title then set him about doing what's needed to be done. Then of course you chop his head off if the population become angry enough.

So it's not new... and as history have repeatedly shown, it can only last so long until the ruling elite run out of idiots convincing enough to play the lead role. 

So now we have a new dirty word in politics: Populous.

When a politician do what is popular in a democracy, they're label a "populous" i.e. sneeky little unprincipled liar doing what the population want.

Not only is that wrong - i.e. how many politician do we know who truly do what the majority of the people want anyway. And wrong in that the kind of stuff they're proposing aren't at all what the population want - it's just sold that way, made to appear that way.

Let's take "free trade".

If trade is truly free, if the market are level and consumers are given free choice from well informed and equally competitive suppliers... who wouldn't want free trade? 

Anyway...


----------



## McLovin

skc said:


> Speaking to a few friends from US the other night... they remain convinced that Trump can't afford to build the wall without using illegal immigrants.
> 
> I suppose he could order the wall be built by illegal labourers and simply have them paint the Mexican side of the wall at the end of it.




What are the actual running costs of a wall that size? It's got to be in the billions of dollars and will it actually stop people coming across the border? I reckon NAFTA has done more to slow the number of border jumpers down than a wall would.

According to this from Pew the number of illegal immigrants has been falling...I guess not surprising that it was highest during the 1990s when Mexico was an economic basket case. Perhaps a strong economy prevents economic migration.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> That's the populous anti-populous argument. Doesn't make much sense once you think about it though Sifu, not from a democratic point of view.
> 
> First, in a democracy, the majority ought to have their say, no? All votes are equal and what not.
> 
> Second, this electoral college rule was design not to protect the interests of the people of the less populous state as is claimed, but was designed so that slave-owning states, having agreed that slaves are 2/3rd human and other non-White Male are not citizens... well, they too ought to have two Senators etc. etc.
> 
> The thing I like about a Democracy as we know it today is that when the populous are sick of one party, whoever happen to be their current leader get to be scapegoated, booed and shipped off to some nice retirement village. Then the population are told that it was all the other side's fault and so get to pick the same alternative.
> 
> Then the "new" alternative do the same bs, screw the population to serve their own class (or if they happen to be from new money or no-money come good, serve their masters)... then once the plebs get upset at being screwed again... new ads, new elections and it repeats.
> 
> It's a great system, the kind wise (and wiley) kings and emperors play when they pick some idiot with a big ego, give him a grand title then set him about doing what's needed to be done. Then of course you chop his head off if the population become angry enough.
> 
> So it's not new... and as history have repeatedly shown, it can only last so long until the ruling elite run out of idiots convincing enough to play the lead role.
> 
> So now we have a new dirty word in politics: Populous.
> 
> When a politician do what is popular in a democracy, they're label a "populous" i.e. sneeky little unprincipled liar doing what the population want.
> 
> Not only is that wrong - i.e. how many politician do we know who truly do what the majority of the people want anyway. And wrong in that the kind of stuff they're proposing aren't at all what the population want - it's just sold that way, made to appear that way.
> 
> Let's take "free trade".
> 
> If trade is truly free, if the market are level and consumers are given free choice from well informed and equally competitive suppliers... who wouldn't want free trade?
> 
> Anyway...



Rubbish, Grasshopper.

It's not an argument, it's the constitution.

Our system is not dissimilar where all sorts of situations can occur where the the popularly voted for candidate loses a seat, or a party loses an election. Think about it.

It's a system with a reason, it worked as intended, the left should stop squealing, protesting, smashing peoples cars and shop windows, putting up torturers and murders as representatitives of the "womens movement".

The celebrity cabal should also STFU and stop proving what morons they are. I now have a long list of "artists" whom I can no longer enjoy.

The left should grow up, stop with the faux offense and enter into discussion and debate... and stop behaving like infants


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Rubbish, Grasshopper.
> 
> It's not an argument, it's the constitution.
> 
> Our system is not dissimilar where all sorts of situations can occur where the the popularly voted for candidate loses a seat, or a party loses an election. Think about it.
> 
> It's a system with a reason, it worked as intended, the left should stop squealing, protesting, smashing peoples cars and shop windows, putting up torturers and murders as representatitives of the "womens movement".
> 
> The celebrity cabal should also STFU and stop proving what morons they are. I now have a long list of "artists" whom I can no longer enjoy.
> 
> The left should grow up, stop with the faux offense and enter into discussion and debate... and stop behaving like infants




You're arguing over the wrong issue there Sifu.

You are right about protests over Trump's win; right about celebs and Democratic politicians protesting Trump for winning... you're bang on there. With celebs, heck, I couldn't watch Colbert anymore once I saw him paling around with Henry Kissinger. Seriously, how in the world can anyone dance and crack jokes with that war criminal?

But while you're right about all these bs celebs and politicians protesting, you're wrong to call the movement a Lefty sour grape, faux anger crap. 

Whenever there are real, genuine popular movement calling for change... opportunists and politicians will do what they do best: they stay back, watch to see where the tide goes, and then take the winning side, riding it for all its worth.

The movement against Trump is real, opportunists aren't the movement even though they're the ones getting all the attention and credits.

Important not to muddy the people's anger and fear with those opportunists. I mean, the Women's March against Trump in Washington got that DNC chairwoman - Schultz - the one who not only just support and favour Clinton, but caught redhanded (thanks Wikileaks, you Russian stooge) using the DNC and its organisation to screw the popular Sanders movement... she was there protesting Trump even though she plays a heck of a big part in Trump winning.

So yea, lots of self-interested opportunists. They're not the movement.

-----

With regard to the Constitution, the US, ours, any country you care to name, country from the beginning of time to today and tomorrows... they're all designed to protect the wealth and power of the ruling elite. 

No constitution, be it the rule of Divine Authority or Democratic or whatever... they're all designed to keep the plebs in their place.

So there really is no Right or Left in the established political parties. They're all different flavour of the one party. All design to give voters the impression of choice and freedom and whatever.

To then pick one party over another, one politician over another thinking that one care for you or those you care about more... that's just delusional. That's playing right into their game.


----------



## wayneL

Specious nonsense. You think there is a bona fide leftist movement? Let me tell you, there is a massive movement on the the other side. You just don't know it's there because of the echo chamber that is the media, the arts and the bureaucracy. 

Middle America is very ####ing angry,  and they are ready for civil war, believe me on that one. Trump embodies that anger and though he will most l likely not be truly representative of them, 

You watch,  if as the left prophesized (and even implored in some cases), Trump coos a bullet to the head, the poo will really hit the propeller. 

I for one hope Trump serves as catalyst for the de-gradualism of the poisonous gradualist brain washing and social engineering, the awakening of critical thought and escewing of the pathological "virtuenza" that is plaguing the West and handing economic (and eventually military) hegemony to the Far East.

This is the panic evident in the socialists,  that people are staying to wake up.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I for one hope Trump serves as catalyst for the de-gradualism of the poisonous gradualist brain washing and social engineering, the awakening of critical thought and escewing of the pathological "virtuenza" that is plaguing the West and handing economic (and eventually military) hegemony to the Far East.





What ?


----------



## Smurf1976

wayneL said:


> I for one hope Trump serves as catalyst for the de-gradualism of the poisonous gradualist brain washing and social engineering, the awakening of critical thought and escewing of the pathological "virtuenza" that is plaguing the West and handing economic (and eventually military) hegemony to the Far East.




Based on what I've seen and heard thus far I'm no fan of Trump but I do hope you're right on that point.

If there's one thing the West desperately needs it's to get the concept of critical thought back in action. Everything else flows from that.


----------



## SuperGlue

skc said:


> Speaking to a few friends from US the other night... they remain convinced that Trump can't afford to build the wall without using illegal immigrants.
> 
> I suppose he could order the wall be built by illegal labourers and simply have them paint the Mexican side of the wall at the end of it.





There won't be any illegal labourers to built the wall,
as they will all have been deported back to Mexico.

Mexico could offer to built the wall for half the price,
money up front of course. Then Mexico engage the Chinese to supply and build
the wall for half price (half of Mexico's price).
After all the Chinese have the most experience and knowledge of building
the Great Wall of China.

Trump will look smart and the Mexicans & Chinese will be happy.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Specious nonsense. You think there is a bona fide leftist movement? Let me tell you, there is a massive movement on the the other side. You just don't know it's there because of the echo chamber that is the media, the arts and the bureaucracy.
> 
> Middle America is very ####ing angry,  and they are ready for civil war, believe me on that one. Trump embodies that anger and though he will most l likely not be truly representative of them,
> 
> You watch,  if as the left prophesized (and even implored in some cases), Trump coos a bullet to the head, the poo will really hit the propeller.
> 
> I for one hope Trump serves as catalyst for the de-gradualism of the poisonous gradualist brain washing and social engineering, the awakening of critical thought and escewing of the pathological "virtuenza" that is plaguing the West and handing economic (and eventually military) hegemony to the Far East.
> 
> This is the panic evident in the socialists,  that people are staying to wake up.




There's never been a "left" or a "right" movement. There's only ever been revolutionary ones.

Show me one example of a Leftist movement and I'll show you how it's just your ordinary "People are pizzed off" movement.

Yes, Middle America are angry, but they're not angry because they're Left or Right. They're pizzed because they've been screwed by the establishment and that is the only reason "an outsider" like Trump who seriously have no business running anything other than some scam, managed to become president.

So while Trump and his other jokers want to think that he got in because of his racist, protectionist speaks. He and the DNC, RNC and media got it horribly wrong thinking that as long as they beat up on Mexicans and Muslims, business can carry on as usual. It better not. But for some reason it's about to be accelerated.

Again, it's not "Socialism" or hippie dippy welfare state and abandoning Christian value, or migrants and refugees, or PC and the "liberal" mainstream media... those are not what brought America (and Europe, Australia and other great and noble Western democracies) to its current position.

It's the same old problem of centuries and empires past that does it. i.e. the established power elite and their courtiers are screwing over the stupid plebs and peasants - putting them in their place, showing them who own the dam place.

Just that in multi-cultural democracies, these psychos have ready-made, weak and defenceless scapegoats to blame. i.e. the poor (welfare cheats), the poor coloured coolies who come over to steal jobs, the poor refugees who flee from countries our masters of war are liberating coming over to blow us all up.

So while they tax and take from the plebs, their own skin and blood, point their fingers to the other impure parasites... well, how long can they keep doing that before people wisen up? Or if not wisen up, just upset enough to just burn something.

That's how Imperial Russia got burnt and their Czars family got shot and burried somewhere; that's how the the last Manchurian Emperor became a common gardener (and thankful for it)... and that's how Theodore Roosevelt got smart enough and be convincing enough to his fellow blue blood that they better cut this bs corporate welfare fat cat stuff before they too are stuffed.

A democracy is great in that it permit the peaceful transfer of power between parties - to better serve the need of the common people.

What this system has become of late is simply a bait and switch between the same single party, doing the same bs under different branding: serving the corporate monied interest at the massive expense of the poor and working class.

Can't keep pulling that off forever.


----------



## luutzu




----------



## wayneL

The Fabian society is a Left-wing movement Grasshopper.


----------



## wayneL

FYI Grasshopper 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

There is also an Australian version 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society


----------



## noco

wayneL said:


> FYI Grasshopper
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
> 
> There is also an Australian version
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society




Wayne, COMMUNISM : IT IS NOT DEAD AND BURIED.

In fact it is very much alive in the Green/Labor left wing coalition.

The Fabian motto is "WE ARE WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING".

If the Green/Labor coalition were to rename their party the Labor Communist Party they would be trance at any election.

They believe in central control as we have witnessed in their control of the ABC and all their offshoots like GETUP, QandA, Media check, 7.30 report and late line......Bill Shorten is a foundation member and past board member of GETUP.....It is their propaganda machine and they keep slowly chipping away...Their next step if they ever gained the reigns in Canberra is to control the banks followed by control of mining, agriculture and manufacturing, or I should say what is left of it.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> The Fabian society is a Left-wing movement Grasshopper.




I know that that's considered the "Left" movement, but is it Left or just certain segment of the political elite shaping their message and mission to suit the popular movement?

As Confucius says, those who give to the people gain the people. Those who gain the people, gain the world (The Great Learning).

So what did Australians after WW2 want from their government? More capitalism or more social democratic value - you know, help out my dead mate's widow and orphans; I went to fight against Nazism and imperial over-reach for freedom and equality among citizens, give us some of that. etc. etc.

And the power did give some of that. Not because they got a lot nicer, but because if they don't... well there are plenty of examples still smouldering in Europe showing what had happened to more than a handful of Royal Houses and fat cat capitalists who wanted it all.

As the Historian Howard Zinn observes, history and social movement are not made or shaped by any one leader; they have always been shaped and led by the masses. The leader that get the credit, some just ride the wave, one or two might have actually believe the idealism... but once power are attained, the leadership either take it all and start screwing the revolution; or they get disillusioned by their compatriots; or they get shot or otherwise removed.

That's why a clown like Trump managed to become president: he just speak and pay lip service to the anger the people are feeling. People know his bs, just that they're so desperate for a change that anyone but the current establishment is worth a chance. And that is why Bernie Sanders, who may or may not be a real progressive, would have won the election if the Democrats didn't screw him over with rules design to keep outsiders like himself out.. .and when that does not seem to work because the guy is so popular, they take it into their hands to tip the scale and give the people one big middle finger.

The Democrats, and our own Labor, aren't Lefties... they all serve the same master, and that master ain't the plebs.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> know that that's considered the "Left" movement, but is it Left or just certain segment of the political elite shaping their message and mission to suit the popular movement?




Democracy itself doesn't change it's meaning = rule of the people. This contrasts with the alternatives of oligarchies, aristocracies, totalitariansim, etc. It implies freedom of the individual to rule his own destiny, which ain't going to happen in any tribe...no way. So once you start tinkering with it with variants it automatically becomes a leftist model by degrees.

Today the old basics like legal equality, civil liberties, political freedom, sovereignty and autonomy, openness and accountability have been replaced by neo Liberalism where money and labour efficiency allow corporations to skirt the core democratic norms. 

The bastardisation of the democracy is variants to the theme, being e.g. liberal democracies, socialist democracies, etc.

The real problem is that no one knows what left and right are; they have always been a cliche bogey used by men seeking power through fear.  I seem to recall arguments about left and right being described as Hegelian thematics, which is probably very true.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Rudd has tweeted that he feels the immigration bans will increase the number of terrorist attacks.  I don't think I've ever seen a more stupid comment from a politician.


----------



## basilio

Well President Alternative Reality has decreed that any traveller from a host of nations could be a "very bad person" and the risk to the US is just too much to bear. So we have the instant travel bans.

Of course this isn't about Muslins per se is it ?  O course not President Alternative Reality made sure to mention this was about the overwhelming danger posed to the good folks of the USA by any person from Iran, Somalia, Sudan ect.

Trouble is other people have a different story. Rudolph Giuliani for example. This is what he had to say.







But of course Rudolph never actually said this did he ?

https://twitter.com/jpscasteras/status/825717327635349504


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Democracy itself doesn't change it's meaning = rule of the people. This contrasts with the alternatives of oligarchies, aristocracies, totalitariansim, etc. It implies freedom of the individual to rule his own destiny, which ain't going to happen in any tribe...no way. So once you start tinkering with it with variants it automatically becomes a leftist model by degrees.
> 
> Today the old basics like legal equality, civil liberties, political freedom, sovereignty and autonomy, openness and accountability have been replaced by neo Liberalism where money and labour efficiency allow corporations to skirt the core democratic norms.
> 
> The bastardisation of the democracy is variants to the theme, being e.g. liberal democracies, socialist democracies, etc.
> 
> The real problem is that no one knows what left and right are; they have always been a cliche bogey used by men seeking power through fear.  I seem to recall arguments about left and right being described as Hegelian thematics, which is probably very true.




Look at what the "liberal", "lefty" Trilateral Commission (planners who eventually work in Jimmy Carter's circle of advisers) says of democracy:  *The Crisis of Democracy*

i.e. there's just too much freedom and learning among the troublesome masses demanding less wars and imperialism for more stuff like healthcare, education and other useless things. This, as the Vietnam War has shown, impede us responsible men of destiny from carrying out God's plan to direct and maintain this great country of ours as the global Hegemon. 

i.e. things must be done to prevent too much freedom and avert this Crisis of Democracy. 

How do we do that?

First, get the media on the gov't side. Make a few patriot like Murdoch filthy rich by bailing them out of their losses, permit them to game the tax system, buy up other small time media moguls... then let him relay our message of freedom and democracy.

Second, get rid of free education and those meddling hippy commo professors teaching the kids to think and care and empathise with their fellow citizens and the less fortunate. Make the kids and their parents pay through the nose for any kind of "education", defund universities so that they will have to rely on private philantrophy who will obviously give money so the kids can learn to not like them.

Third, danger! Danger everywhere. First it's the Soviets, godless bastards. After that collapsed... free market is awesome... That didn't work so well... Terrorism! Islamic terrorists following the crazy religion to hate foreign invaders taking their stuff and killing their family at will. 

A lot of individual rights and civil liberties have been won by citizens of the West. Won, not given. 
All are being systematically taken away right under our noses and most of us figured it's all Muslim's fault. It's like saying that my daddy would have been very nice to me and my family if it weren't for him needing to take all our money, go over there beating the crap out of you guys to take your stuff and give it all to his mistresses.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Well President Alternative Reality has decreed that any traveller from a host of nations could be a "very bad person" and the risk to the US is just too much to bear. So we have the instant travel bans.
> 
> Of course this isn't about Muslins per se is it ?  O course not President Alternative Reality made sure to mention this was about the overwhelming danger posed to the good folks of the USA by any person from Iran, Somalia, Sudan ect.
> 
> Trouble is other people have a different story. Rudolph Giuliani for example. This is what he had to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But of course Rudolph never actually said this did he ?
> 
> https://twitter.com/jpscasteras/status/825717327635349504






Apparently there's an exception to the ban: Those of minority religion from these Islamic countries can come in. 

Any more overtly racist than this and they'd be setting up concentration camps.


----------



## wayneL

Okay guys, apart from me enjoying watching the butthurt, you're getting a bit hysterical here. Grasshopper maked a good attempt at sophistry, but bas, good Lord, basilio!

Just never seen anyone older than 13 behave so petulantly,  all except most of of his leftist comrades that is.

Thanks, the entertainment is awesome. lol


----------



## basilio

So Wayne just nothing really wrong, stupid or dangerous about President Alternative Reality  deciding to immediately stop *all *travellers from seven countries entering the USA on grounds that one of them might be a very bad guy ? People who yesterday had been checked and rechecked  were just going to a wedding/coming home/ moving to job and today held to prove they weren't a public danger.

Clearly your down the rabbit hole with him.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> So Wayne just nothing really wrong, stupid or dangerous about President Alternative Reality  deciding to immediately stop *all *travellers from seven countries entering the USA on grounds that one of them might be a very bad guy ? People who yesterday had been checked and rechecked  were just going to a wedding/coming home/ moving to job and today held to prove they weren't a public danger.
> 
> Clearly your down the rabbit hole with him.




We'd all be in some kind of hole if Trump keep this kind of nonsense up.

Good thing he's a coward and the Americans are protesting each time he thought he could just scribble his name and it's done, whatever it is.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Okay guys, apart from me enjoying watching the butthurt, you're getting a bit hysterical here. Grasshopper maked a good attempt at sophistry, but bas, good Lord, basilio!
> 
> Just never seen anyone older than 13 behave so petulantly,  all except most of of his leftist comrades that is.
> 
> Thanks, the entertainment is awesome. lol





Beside a handful of Hillary diehards and practically all the DNC politicians, Americans aren't upset over Trump because Hillary lost and Trump won. So there's no butthurt there Sifu.

There will be a whole lot of butt and other hurting though. I mean, the golden curtains had only been hung in the Oval Office 9 days ago and he's scaring any sensible people, the world over.


----------



## basilio

Interesting to note the absolute bleeding obvious; that invoking the travel ban and targeting Muslims (who you didn't have business dealings with...) could blow up in your face.
Excellent article that pulls together all the blowback and stupidity of the action.

* Jihadist groups hail Donald Trump's travel ban as a victory *

*Joby Warrick*

Jihadist groups on Sunday celebrated the Trump administration's ban on travel from seven Muslim-majority countries, saying the new policy validates their claim that the United States is at war with Islam.
Comments posted to pro-Islamic State social media accounts predicted that President Donald Trump's executive order would persuade American Muslims to side with the extremists. One posting hailed the US president as "the best caller to Islam," while others predicted that Trump would soon launch a new war in the Middle East.

.....The reaction to the ban from Islamic State sympathisers came as current and former US officials also expressed concerned that the temporary ban would undermine the global fight against violent Islamic militants. Senator John McCain chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he worried about the ban's impact on Muslim troops fighting alongside Americans to destroy the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

....
Robert Richer, a 35-year CIA veteran and former chief of the agency's Near East division, said the ban was a "strategic mistake" that could undermine future efforts to recruit spies and collect vital information about terrorists and their plans. *How, he asked, can CIA officers persuade Iraqi and Syrian nationals to risk their lives to help the United States?*

"This was a win for jihadists and other anti-US forces," said Richer, the deputy chief of the agency's Operations Directorate during the George W. Bush administration. "*It fuels the belief out there that Americans are anti-Islam. Otherwise, it accomplishes nothing,  because the ones we are most concerned about can still get to the United States."*

http://www.theage.com.au/world/jiha...-travel-ban-as-a-victory-20170130-gu17am.html


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Beside a handful of Hillary diehards and practically all the DNC politicians, Americans aren't upset over Trump because Hillary lost and Trump won. So there's no butthurt there Sifu.
> 
> There will be a whole lot of butt and other hurting though. I mean, the golden curtains had only been hung in the Oval Office 9 days ago and he's scaring any sensible people, the world over.




Trump has put a brick wall up against American Socialism and that is what is hurting the Democrats......Their march to central control has been halted.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Trump has put a brick wall up against American Socialism and that is what is hurting the Democrats......Their march to central control has been halted.




Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.

Good luck with that.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.
> 
> Good luck with that.




Obama has placed the USA into the highest debt in the history of that country.......History is repeating itself every where you see a socialist government...They just cannot manage the economy....In Australian federal politics or in state politics it is the same.

You have to ruin the economy of a country before converting to socialism....Didn't you know that?
You are never too old to learn.


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> Comments posted to pro-Islamic State social media accounts predicted that President Donald Trump's executive order would persuade American Muslims to side with the extremists.




Let's see if I have this straight.

Islamic extremists, such as the Taliban and ISIS, have done some of the most horrific and cruelest things imaginable. Not only do that decapitate anyone from opposing sides at a whim, but we have seen children being slowly decapitated in front of their mothers. Non-combatants such as journalists have been burned alive in cages, homosexuals have been thrown off tall buildings and we have seen the attempted extermination of minority groups, such as Christians. Even children from "their own side" have been used as suicide bombers. They have probably committed atrocities crueler than anything witnessed in any war to date and if they had access to weapons of mass destruction, they would likely commit genocide on a global scale on those who do not profess their brand of Islam. The atrocities they commit on a daily basis are beyond dispute and are proudly shown on YouTube and other media. Their genocidal intentions against non-muslims were recently published in a document titled, if I remember correctly, "Why We Hate The West"

Their barbarity is no secret to anyone.

Yet, if this article truly reflects the mood of American Muslims, an executive order by Trump that puts a temporary stay on Muslims from a half dozen or so countries entering the USA is enough to make American Muslims support those extremists. This order no doubt will inconvenience a lot of people and has been badly thought through and implemented. It is likely also not supported by the majority of Americans. But no-one is being injured or killed by the order and is likely less of a problem worldwide to Muslims than say the policies that are already in place in countries like Japan, China, Russia and many more countries in relation to immigration from these same and many other Muslim majority countries.

If truly reflective of American Muslims, then what does that say about them? That they can be just as cruel and inhuman as ISIS and the Taliban if citizens of half a dozen Muslim countries are temporarily denied rights to access the US even though many of the affected countries allow few rights to non-Muslims when it comes to their own countries.

If true, doesn't it actually vindicate Trump's actions?


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> It is likely also not supported by the majority of Americans.




???

Secretly I think it would be supported by the majority of Americans even though it is obviously unfair to law abiding people. The trouble is you can easily tell who the terrorists are.


----------



## Smurf1976

noco said:


> Obama has placed the USA into the highest debt in the history of that country.......History is repeating itself every where you see a socialist government...They just cannot manage the economy....In Australian federal politics or in state politics it is the same.




Obama doubled the USA debt. So did Bush.

As you point out we've got the same thing here in Australia. Federal debt at an all time record high under a Liberal government meanwhile Labor are doing much the same in states where they're in power.

May as well combine the lot and call it the National Liberal Socialist Green Labor Party. Americans can call theirs the Democratic Republic Party.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.
> 
> Good luck with that.



Perhaps you should read Von Mises, Hayek, et al on that.


----------



## wayneL

Oh, and basilio... rabbit hole? 

As is my usual practice,  I'll evaluate his actions, in toto, as time goes by. i hope he won't be as disappointing as Obama.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Perhaps you should read Von Mises, Hayek, et al on that.




I thought you were going to recommend Milton Friedman. Phew.

Read a Forbes interpretation of Von Mises greatest hit and no, he's living in some Capitalist fantasy Sifu. You seriously believe how our corporations operate since, ever, is really Capitalism and Free Market enterprise?

Central planning and common ownership of the means of production is not what Socialism is. That's what Communism is. Heck, it's what all form of authoritarian, oligarchic form of gov't are.

Just because they claim it to be "socialism", their definition of Socialism does not make it so. Same with our form of capitalism and free market efficiency where high risks and high costs are socialised on to the public, but when profit is ready to be made they are then privatised to entrepreneurs and captain of industry.

Where if you're a small business operator, you're on your own and all your losses are yours to bear but your profits are properly taxed and audited. But if you're big and important enough, any mistake you make, any losses you incurred... bail out. And that does not include the laws written specifically for your benefit, at your winks and nudges.

Pretty easy to see where our Western Capitalism will end up if we keep at it: look at modern China, or Dickensian England where the few rich have everything while the poor work like dogs but have diddly; where the water and the air are polluted and poisoned from unregulated "red tape" hindering private enterprise who will definitely not shiet where they live and eat and sure enough, they do not hang around where their factories shiet and their workers eat and sleep.

Anyway, 30 years of Reganomics and Thatcherifics, with no serious security threat from peer competitors, with an absolute free reign to reach new markets and share the love of freedom and market value... how's the world doing?

8 people have as much wealth as half the world. Continuous wars for almost two decades and expanding; terrorism/anti-terrorism terrifying everyone except the arms dealers and generals and God Emperors; economic collapses and racing faster to nuclear and ecological disasters...

Yes, can we have some more of that please.


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> Obama doubled the USA debt. So did Bush.
> 
> As you point out we've got the same thing here in Australia. Federal debt at an all time record high under a Liberal government meanwhile Labor are doing much the same in states where they're in power.
> 
> May as well combine the lot and call it the National Liberal Socialist Green Labor Party. Americans can call theirs the Democratic Republic Party.




If debt were spent and invested properly, it will pay for itself. 

But since debt for raised just to be given to corporations and tax cuts to the rich; and since the rich and corporations shelter their profit offshore... we got a problem.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Let's see if I have this straight.
> 
> Islamic extremists, such as the Taliban and ISIS, have done some of the most horrific and cruelest things imaginable. Not only do that decapitate anyone from opposing sides at a whim, but we have seen children being slowly decapitated in front of their mothers. Non-combatants such as journalists have been burned alive in cages, homosexuals have been thrown off tall buildings and we have seen the attempted extermination of minority groups, such as Christians. Even children from "their own side" have been used as suicide bombers. They have probably committed atrocities crueler than anything witnessed in any war to date and if they had access to weapons of mass destruction, they would likely commit genocide on a global scale on those who do not profess their brand of Islam. The atrocities they commit on a daily basis are beyond dispute and are proudly shown on YouTube and other media. Their genocidal intentions against non-muslims were recently published in a document titled, if I remember correctly, "Why We Hate The West"
> 
> Their barbarity is no secret to anyone.
> 
> Yet, if this article truly reflects the mood of American Muslims, an executive order by Trump that puts a temporary stay on Muslims from a half dozen or so countries entering the USA is enough to make American Muslims support those extremists. This order no doubt will inconvenience a lot of people and has been badly thought through and implemented. It is likely also not supported by the majority of Americans. But no-one is being injured or killed by the order and is likely less of a problem worldwide to Muslims than say the policies that are already in place in countries like Japan, China, Russia and many more countries in relation to immigration from these same and many other Muslim majority countries.
> 
> If truly reflective of American Muslims, then what does that say about them? That they can be just as cruel and inhuman as ISIS and the Taliban if citizens of half a dozen Muslim countries are temporarily denied rights to access the US even though many of the affected countries allow few rights to non-Muslims when it comes to their own countries.
> 
> If true, doesn't it actually vindicate Trump's actions?




Say what?

Trump's racist policy doesn't hurt anyone? Just a bit of an inconvenient?

Seriously... we're the greatest country in the world! The most civilised and humane ever! We're awesome.

I mean, we just go and start wars on weak and defenceless people; kill literally millions of them.. called it peacekeeping, call anyone who hate seeing their country looted, their people oppressed a terrorist... and yea, what's their problems anyway. Must be Islam.

What's wrong with Muslims standing in the way of peace-makers man.


----------



## Tisme

Lucky for us christian anglophile countries that Trump is one too ....


----------



## CanOz

Scott Adams seems to have a good grip on it....

Blog.dilbert.com


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Lucky for us christian anglophile countries that Trump is one too ....




What's with Trump putting a bust of Churchill in the Oval Office. There are no other racist American imperialist to admire? 

There's George Washington, the village scourger.

There's Theodore Roosevelt who reckon the top half of what was Mexico is too rich and too important to be left in the hand of the inferior brown Mexicans: they wouldn't know what to do with it.


----------



## PZ99

Trump would be better off with a bust of Churchill's two fingers and when it comes to his treatment of Australian trade it appears history is repeating itself. We should retaliate with two chopsticks... one to stir the pot and Trump can work out what to do with the other one


----------



## Tink

First Ronald Reagan, now Winston Churchill ...

Looks like they are trying to stop him visiting the Queen.

_But British Prime Minister Theresa May's office shut down the idea of a cancellation, saying the visit would go ahead as planned._


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> First Ronald Reagan, now Winston Churchill ...
> 
> Looks like they are trying to stop him visiting the Queen.
> 
> _But British Prime Minister Theresa May's office shut down the idea of a cancellation, saying the visit would go ahead as planned._




I would have thought you'd like the Queen. Why in the world would anyone who like the nice Queen want to let an orange blowhard like Trump be in her presence?

Five bucks that when Trump meet her, he'll thumb his tiny thumbs up next to her. Might even do a V, definitely a point while they pose for the cameras. 

At least busy fingers will stop him from grabbing stuff.


----------



## PZ99

So where does Margaret Thatcher fit in this jiggy jigsaw fest? Bottom right? lol


----------



## SuperGlue

Theresa May: Trump would like to visit you.
 Queen's reaction.


----------



## PZ99

LOL! Is that an expression of fear or is it because she can't remember who he is?


----------



## SuperGlue

Tink said:


> First Ronald Reagan, now Winston Churchill ...
> 
> Looks like they are trying to stop him visiting the Queen.
> 
> _But British Prime Minister Theresa May's office shut down the idea of a cancellation, saying the visit would go ahead as planned._




Why stop him.
I think its been a long time since he had a motherly advice.
View attachment 69795


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> What's with Trump putting a bust of Churchill in the Oval Office. There are no other racist American imperialist to admire?
> 
> There's George Washington, the village scourger.
> 
> There's Theodore Roosevelt who reckon the top half of what was Mexico is too rich and too important to be left in the hand of the inferior brown Mexicans: they wouldn't know what to do with it.




OK so Winston was responsible for the Gallipoli fiasco, but he was the great negotiator and that must be some appeal to Donald with similar teflon skin.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> OK so Winston was responsible for the Gallipoli fiasco, but he was the great negotiator and that must be some appeal to Donald with similar teflon skin.




I heard that Gallipoli was also a few other high Lords fault but Churchill was the junior one so have to take the fall.

I don't take Churchill to be the negotiating type. Never surrender and what not. That and he kinda negotiated most of the English dominions over to Yanky control. ala the Middle East and Australia   Yea true he didn't have much of a choice beside taking the few crumbs left over... but with Stalin he negotiated half of Europe over to the Soviets and look how long it took the Yanks to work getting it all back - a couple more states to go.


----------



## luutzu

PZ99 said:


> LOL! Is that an expression of fear or is it because she can't remember who he is?




Maybe she was shown his picture? Pudgy, smug, stupid grinning orange with piss yellow comb over face.


----------



## Knobby22

Churchill didn't want Russia to have those countries. He was treated like a little brother. The USA and USSR did the negotiation and poor Winny was generally ignored.


----------



## McLovin

SuperGlue said:


> Theresa May: Trump would like to visit you.
> Queen's reaction.
> 
> View attachment 69792




She couldn't stand Berlusconi, imagine what she thinks of Trump.


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> OK so Winston was responsible for the Gallipoli fiasco, but he was the great negotiator and that must be some appeal to Donald with similar teflon skin.




Not to mention when he abandoned Singapore and left Australia to the whim of the Japanese army.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Churchill didn't want Russia to have those countries. He was treated like a little brother. The USA and USSR did the negotiation and poor Winny was generally ignored.





Yea true.

But I did remember watching, I think it was The World at War, where Churchill and Stalin divvy up Europe from a list on his handkerchief.

Yea, the Yank wouldn't let him and his British "Empire" touch the ME. Way too valuable for a lieutenant. 

Be interesting to see the next Yalta where the victors get to divvy up which part of the tunnel they like best.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Not to mention when he abandoned Singapore and left Australia to the whim of the Japanese army.




Maybe he thought Asia ought to be given to the other Asian master race.

But to be fair to the guy, he did managed to save England from total loss. Else Europe and most of Russia would be speaking German today.


----------



## McLovin

luutzu said:


> Maybe he thought Asia ought to be given to the other Asian master race.
> 
> But to be fair to the guy, he did managed to save England from total loss. Else Europe and most of Russia would be speaking German today.




Fortunate geography and the Soviet Union saved the UK from German domination.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I'm thinking the immigration ban might be akin to a 'shot across the bow'.  A way of saying he's serious.  It's only 90 days after all.  90 days makes it meaningless.  So it could have quite a good effect on those who think they might creep in and do harm.  There's plenty who would do just that if given the chance.

So on the surface there's all this chaos and protest, but I think it's a clever bit of politics.  In 90 days time it won't even be an issue because normal international travel will resume... and yet ISIS will know Trump means business.  I think it will work.


----------



## moXJO

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm thinking the immigration ban might be akin to a 'shot across the bow'.  A way of saying he's serious.  It's only 90 days after all.  90 days makes it meaningless.  So it could have quite a good effect on those who think they might creep in and do harm.  There's plenty who would do just that if given the chance.
> 
> So on the surface there's all this chaos and protest, but I think it's a clever bit of politics.  In 90 days time it won't even be an issue because normal international travel will resume... and yet ISIS will know Trump means business.  I think it will work.



Probably a smokescreen while he pushes out more orders. Climate change agreement was next on the chopping block. I hope the have enough room in trauma centers for all the lefties having outrage overload.


----------



## overhang

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm thinking the immigration ban might be akin to a 'shot across the bow'.  A way of saying he's serious.  It's only 90 days after all.  90 days makes it meaningless.  So it could have quite a good effect on those who think they might creep in and do harm.  There's plenty who would do just that if given the chance.
> 
> So on the surface there's all this chaos and protest, but I think it's a clever bit of politics.  In 90 days time it won't even be an issue because normal international travel will resume... and yet ISIS will know Trump means business.  I think it will work.




Oh he means business unless of course it effects his business interests in which case he turns a blind eye.  Of the 9/11 attackers 15 out of the 19 were Saudi Arabia citizens and yet they are left off this ban, none of the many Muslim majority countries that Trump has business interests in were on the banned list.  Having Iraq on the list is quite reckless and clearly not thought through, Iraqi citizens have acted as interpreters as well as provided intel for the allied force risking their lives and their family.  I'm sure they'll think twice about assisting American soldiers again, not to mention it alienates the army who are currently being trained by the allied forces.  We may see more green on blue attacks in retaliation to this and that blood will be on Trumps hands.


----------



## luutzu

overhang said:


> Oh he means business unless of course it effects his business interests in which case he turns a blind eye.  Of the 9/11 attackers 15 out of the 19 were Saudi Arabia citizens and yet they are left off this ban, none of the many Muslim majority countries that Trump has business interests in were on the banned list.  Having Iraq on the list is quite reckless and clearly not thought through, Iraqi citizens have acted as interpreters as well as provided intel for the allied force risking their lives and their family.  I'm sure they'll think twice about assisting American soldiers again, not to mention it alienates the army who are currently being trained by the allied forces.  We may see more green on blue attacks in retaliation to this and that blood will be on Trumps hands.




Hence, he means Business 

Can't ban Arabs with cold hard cash from coming over to buy weapons now can we? They got to kick the tyres and fire a few rounds to be sure it'll flatten a couple buildings or two.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Fortunate geography and the Soviet Union saved the UK from German domination.




Yea... true. That and Hitler's ego of thinking he can whip England and so attack the Soviets too early.

But credit where credit's due, Churchill made some incredible decisions that saved England and turn the tide. I mean, the Yanks were pretty much alright with Hitler running Europe while they have their Americas to play with.

A couple of Churchill's masterstrokes starts with him having the balls to tell Hitler to go fark himself, England ain't giving up. Can't say that for a lot of "leaders" in such position. Imagine Tony Abbott or Donald Trump. I saw Trump cowering like a pussy at a couple of his rallies where there's a sudden bang. 

There are countless examples of prime ministers handing over their country when facing overwhelming force. It's the same serving one master or another... best to just give up so you'd get to at least have something to minister over.

Anyway, Churchill's decision to get all the RAF into the air each time the German arrives... That bluff, and Hitler's decision to bomb London instead of the RAF airstrips, did pull England over the line.

Then, according to the movie The Imitation Game, Churchill over-rode the commanding officer at Benchley Park and permit the funding of Alan Turing's development of what became computing science to crack Enigma. 

So yea, aside from him being a racist imperialist warmonger, he's quite admirable.


----------



## dutchie

Is the USA still a democracy?


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> Is the USA still a democracy?




They will be in 4 years...


----------



## Junior

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm thinking the immigration ban might be akin to a 'shot across the bow'.  A way of saying he's serious.  It's only 90 days after all.  90 days makes it meaningless.  So it could have quite a good effect on those who think they might creep in and do harm.  There's plenty who would do just that if given the chance.
> 
> So on the surface there's all this chaos and protest, but I think it's a clever bit of politics.  In 90 days time it won't even be an issue because normal international travel will resume... and yet ISIS will know Trump means business.  I think it will work.




I think you're giving the concept far more credit than it deserves.  It is reckless, harsh and as the posts above mine point out there are many, many holes in his plan.  

He will further alienate and anger those who would like to harm the US.  

There are already more than 3 million muslims living in the US.  Trying to stop a few more from entering just because, maybe 0.00001% of them may arrange a terrorist act seems pretty dumb and counter-productive to me.

They can just fly to Mexico and tunnel under or swim around his expensive wall anyway.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> r or swim around his expensive wall anyway.




That's like the history of Wall Street when Stuyvesant and his mates built a wood wall from shore to shore to repel the Duke of York's English army ... the English walked around the ends and Pete gave up without a shot fired.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Junior said:


> I think you're giving the concept far more credit than it deserves.  It is reckless, harsh and as the posts above mine point out there are many, many holes in his plan.
> 
> He will further alienate and anger those who would like to harm the US.
> 
> There are already more than 3 million muslims living in the US.  Trying to stop a few more from entering just because, maybe 0.00001% of them may arrange a terrorist act seems pretty dumb and counter-productive to me.
> 
> They can just fly to Mexico and tunnel under or swim around his expensive wall anyway.




With Obama (and potentially Hillary), the approach was to let anyone and everyone in, then have a candlelight vigil and group hug when people get blown up or shot in cold blood by terrorists.  Don't you think that's ridiculous?

If banning all Muslims from certain countries for 90 days seems harsh, well I don't call that harsh.  Harsh is when someone gets blown up. 

For me it's just a show of power.  A way of saying "you're finished".  (to ISIS, not Muslims).


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> With Obama (and potentially Hillary), the approach was to let anyone and everyone in, then have a candlelight vigil and group hug when people get blown up or shot in cold blood by terrorists.  Don't you think that's ridiculous?
> 
> If banning all Muslims from certain countries for 90 days seems harsh, well I don't call that harsh.  Harsh is when someone gets blown up.
> 
> For me it's just a show of power.  A way of saying "you're finished".  (to ISIS, not Muslims).




Yes, because droning the bits and pieces out of ISIS and everything and everyone around "them" isn't enough o fa show of force.

To really mean business, you have got to ban Muslims who have been vetted and scrunitised by your security agencies and deemed safe to enter.

Beside the racism behind Trump's ban, it just show that he and his administration have no clue who enter the country. That's the message it's sending. I mean, you'd only net and blanket everyone when you and your system have no idea who's who and what's what.

The comrades in Beijing and Moscow are laughing. You just can't pick a better "leader" for a state you want to weaken.


----------



## McLovin

Junior said:


> I think you're giving the concept far more credit than it deserves.  It is reckless, harsh and as the posts above mine point out there are many, many holes in his plan.
> 
> He will further alienate and anger those who would like to harm the US.
> 
> There are already more than 3 million muslims living in the US.  Trying to stop a few more from entering just because, maybe 0.00001% of them may arrange a terrorist act seems pretty dumb and counter-productive to me.
> 
> They can just fly to Mexico and tunnel under or swim around his expensive wall anyway.




Yes exactly. Unless you ban Saudis then this is nothing but a bauble for Trumpeteers to get wet over. And the wall? San Diego/Tijuana is the most frequently used path for illegals to get into the US. It's had a wall for 10+ years.

As an aside, imagine being a 16 year old growing up in San Diego and being able to cross into Tijuana on weekends to party! Beats the hell out of a goon bag in Double Bay Park.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> Yes, because droning the bits and pieces out of ISIS and everything and everyone around "them" isn't enough o fa show of force.
> 
> To really mean business, you have got to ban Muslims who have been vetted and scrunitised by your security agencies and deemed safe to enter.
> 
> Beside the racism behind Trump's ban, it just show that he and his administration have no clue who enter the country. That's the message it's sending. I mean, you'd only net and blanket everyone when you and your system have no idea who's who and what's what.




They don't need to be in the M.E. killing ISIS and everyone around them.  Get them out of there, return those troops home and stop interfering.  The M.E. will have to look after itself with the 'help' of the UN.  The UN will have to step up and use force when necessary - they will have to change.  Yeh they will have to actually _*do *_something.

It's true, the US has no idea who's coming in, and that's the reason for blanket bans.  Trump is very critical of intelligence agencies - good!  Maybe they will _also_ have to lift their game.

The bigger the organization, the less accountability.  UN and CIA will need to change.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> They don't need to be in the M.E. killing ISIS and everyone around them.  Get them out of there, return those troops home and stop interfering.  The M.E. will have to look after itself with the 'help' of the UN.  The UN will have to step up and use force when necessary - they will have to change.  Yeh they will have to actually _*do *_something.
> 
> It's true, the US has no idea who's coming in, and that's the reason for blanket bans.  Trump is very critical of intelligence agencies - good!  Maybe they will _also_ have to lift their game.
> 
> The bigger the organization, the less accountability.  UN and CIA will need to change.




Maybe he should privatise national security over to Trump Organisation. I heard it's awesome, tremendous and very very amazing.

Come on man, all these are just for show. He's playing politics with people's lives... very cool.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> Maybe he should privatise national security over to Trump Organisation. I heard it's awesome, tremendous and very very amazing.
> 
> Come on man, all these are just for show. He's playing politics with people's lives... very cool.




At least a non-government company would have some accountability.  You know the US army are very, very keen for the war to just keep going?  For them it's a big computer game and they love it because they have all the hi-tech fighting gear and all the enemy has is a few grenade throwers.  That's how it is.  That's why they want it to continue for as long as possible.  The M.E. can exist on its own and sort itself out.  If mass murders start happening, then MASSIVE pressure will fall upon the UN.  It's needed.

I support the notion of a country having very well defined borders and looking after its own people as a priority.  Every other country can figure itself out.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

And idiots like Obama would believe the generals when they say "oh it's very complex this war... will take a long time".  SUCH bull****, and idiot Obama would just believe that.  A country who put a man on the moon in the 1960s cannot defeat a primitive, cave dwelling group of terrorists with AK47s?.... yeh RIGHT!  It could happen virtually overnight if they wanted it to.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> yeh RIGHT! It could happen virtually overnight if they wanted it to.




Sure, storm the beaches like D-Day and roll the tanks over the enemy (and all the civilians who get in the way).

Yes it could be done if you don't worry about the collateral damage, but the political brickbats of putting skin in the game on the ground would be too odious for the politicians to consider.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> And idiots like Obama would believe the generals when they say "oh it's very complex this war... will take a long time".  SUCH bull****, and idiot Obama would just believe that.  A country who put a man on the moon in the 1960s cannot defeat a primitive, cave dwelling group of terrorists with AK47s?.... yeh RIGHT!  It could happen virtually overnight if they wanted it to.




give Obama some credit. He know it's all bs. 

Just that when you want control of other people's riches without their consent, you have got to make a show of how they deserve what they got and how scary they are that we have to be there, for another 100 years - give or take a few years before the oil runs out.

Problem with these kind of bs is that if the population is so scared and frightened of a bunch of terrorists, how will they behave when the real enemy is some serious player with serious firepower?

But not all politicians and generals are as cluey and so think that if terrorists can be easily destroy from a distant, so too can the Russians and Chinese... well, look how the Russian(backed) Georgian handed the Israeli generals and consultants their asses. Oh, not all enemies are defenceless Palestinians.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, storm the beaches like D-Day and roll the tanks over the enemy (and all the civilians who get in the way).
> 
> Yes it could be done if you don't worry about the collateral damage, but the political brickbats of putting skin in the game on the ground would be too odious for the politicians to consider.




I heard Colin Powell's former Chief of Staff saying the US military is now at its lowest recruitment ever.

That's also why the military got PC and allow women to serve on the front line recently.

So for them to put more skin in the game, they'd have to start a draft of some sort. And as Vietnam had shown, when you draft kids from middle to upper middle class, their parents tend to speak up and call a few of their politicians to ask if the war is worth it.


----------



## overhang

Gringotts Bank said:


> With Obama (and potentially Hillary), the approach was to let anyone and everyone in, then have a candlelight vigil and group hug when people get blown up or shot in cold blood by terrorists.  Don't you think that's ridiculous?
> 
> If banning all Muslims from certain countries for 90 days seems harsh, well I don't call that harsh.  Harsh is when someone gets blown up.
> 
> For me it's just a show of power.  A way of saying "you're finished".  (to ISIS, not Muslims).




The process under the previous administration was to allow border security and the intelligence community to do their job and screen those coming in for potential threats.  And this clearly worked as post 9/11 terrorist attacks have always been a US citizen or a legal resident.  I've already mentioned that 15 of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia who aren't on the list but the facts are also that not one fatal attack post 9/11 has occurred from citizens of any of the 7 countries banned.  How can you possibly see this as good policy because so far everything you have said has been baseless?


----------



## basilio

Just flicking through You Tube and came across a movie called "Forbidden".
Tells the true story of a German Countess who helped hide and move scores of Jews in berlin during WW2. Also ended up having and hiding a Jewish lover.

Totally griping. Put aside a couple of hours and understand what happened when a whole religion and it's people were demonised, hunted and killed. 

It has something to say about our times.

 
http://www.fembio.org/english/biography.php/woman/biography/maria-graefin-von-maltzan/


----------



## basilio

Gringotts Bank said:


> With Obama (and potentially Hillary), the approach was to let anyone and everyone in, then have a candlelight vigil and group hug when people get blown up or shot in cold blood by terrorists.  Don't you think that's ridiculous?
> 
> If banning all Muslims from certain countries for 90 days seems harsh, well I don't call that harsh.  Harsh is when someone gets blown up.
> 
> For me it's just a show of power.  A way of saying "you're finished".  (to ISIS, not Muslims).




That is just completely untrue Gringott.  Or perhaps as is currently said "Alternative facts". The vetting of anyone who wants to enter the US from any suspect terrorist country is very, very thorough. As result thousands of people  have been refused entry and literally stopped at the planes. In almost all cases they had no terrorist inclinations but were just collateral damage in the fight against terrorism.

The current sweep to simply ban everyone who is wanting travel has picked up the completely and totally innocent. Doctors, interpreters who worked in Iraq for the US. Families visiting dying relatives. It reminds of the old story about  the Soldiers  and  the Good Indians and Bad Indians.

"Kill em all " Let God sort out the good ones.

Check out the No Fly list story to see just how determined the US already was to ensure no-one with even a hint of danger (and many with none) were arbitrarily stopped from flying into the US.

Would you care to reconsider your  views GringottsBank ?

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.go...screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/20/fbi-no-fly-list-revealed-81k-names-fewer-1k-us/


----------



## SirRumpole

So the Donald thinks that the refugee agreement was a "dumb deal" for the US and should be torn up.

Fine, maybe he should, and perhaps we should tear up a few deals ourselves

1. the US Australia Free Trade agreement which costs our pharmaceutical benefits scheme billions

https://theconversation.com/how-the-us-trade-deal-undermined-australias-pbs-32573 and

2. The Joint Strike Fighter project which is a dog and which is likely to cost us much more than planned.

 This article shows how spineless we are about tackling the US on sensitive issues:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...pine-over-joint-strike-fighter-expert/7218478


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> So the Donald thinks that the refugee agreement was a "dumb deal" for the US and should be torn up.
> 
> Fine, maybe he should, and perhaps we should tear up a few deals ourselves
> 
> 1. the US Australia Free Trade agreement which costs our pharmaceutical benefits scheme billions
> 
> https://theconversation.com/how-the-us-trade-deal-undermined-australias-pbs-32573 and
> 
> 2. The Joint Strike Fighter project which is a dog and which is likely to cost us much more than planned.
> 
> This article shows how spineless we are about tackling the US on sensitive issues:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...pine-over-joint-strike-fighter-expert/7218478




Personally, I just cannot believe Turnbull has done a dumb deal with Obama after Trump had been elected.
It was Trump's policy to curtail Muslim immigration so surely Turnbull could not have been so naive  not to have recognized that policy.
Candid speaking, I hope Trump reneges on the deal which could see the end of Turnbull.


----------



## CanOz

SirRumpole said:


> So the Donald thinks that the refugee agreement was a "dumb deal" for the US and should be torn up.
> 
> Fine, maybe he should, and perhaps we should tear up a few deals ourselves
> 
> 1. the US Australia Free Trade agreement which costs our pharmaceutical benefits scheme billions
> 
> https://theconversation.com/how-the-us-trade-deal-undermined-australias-pbs-32573 and
> 
> 2. The Joint Strike Fighter project which is a dog and which is likely to cost us much more than planned.
> 
> This article shows how spineless we are about tackling the US on sensitive issues:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...pine-over-joint-strike-fighter-expert/7218478




And while we're at it let's ban Americans from traveling here. Let's do some trade deals with everyone else BUT the US...Let the world give the US the protectionism it wants in SPADES!


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> And while we're at it let's ban Americans from traveling here. Let's do some trade deals with everyone else BUT the US...Let the world give the US the protectionism it wants in SPADES!




No, Yanks are nice people mostly so let them come here, can't blame them all for one.

As  for trade deals, we always seem to come off worse when we sign ones with bigger economies who then trample over our local product using their financial muscle. We should just apply the same tariffs to other countries goods as they apply to ours and then adjust our tariffs upwards if they subsidise their producers.


----------



## notting

Anyone who condones torture should be jailed. Trump's a fool and has given  all the evil empires all the amunition they need to justify their inhumane behaiviour.
Trump is playing straight into the terrorists hands. His behavior is exactly what they want to embolden and justify their hatred of the west etc.
The world is in a dark place and is going backwards under this orange toad.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Personally, I just cannot believe Turnbull has done a dumb deal with Obama after Trump had been elected.
> It was Trump's policy to curtail Muslim immigration so surely Turnbull could not have been so naive  not to have recognized that policy.
> Candid speaking, I hope Trump reneges on the deal which could see the end of Turnbull.




Yes, it a bit like the Victorian Libs signing a road contract just before the election. 

But I agree it was a sneaky trick squeezing that through . Turnbull probably deserved the spray Trump gave him although it's not the way a US President should deal with a loyal ally.


----------



## noco

CanOz said:


> And while we're at it let's ban Americans from traveling here. Let's do some trade deals with everyone else BUT the US...Let the world give the US the protectionism it wants in SPADES!




Why retaliate for Turnbull's blunder......That is only adding fuel to the fire....This is where diplomacy should come into affect either with the foreign minister Julie Bishop or our ambassador Joe Hockey......IMHO I believe Julie Bishop hopes Turnbull will fall on hid sword as she has been very very quiet during the past 24 hours....She may have her eye on the PM job.


----------



## Tisme

when you need a true blue warrior king:


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I can just imagine the conversation.  Turnbull trying to say all the right things, trying to sound all proper and 'measured', trying to live up to some fake image in his mind of how he should behave....whilst plain-speaking Trump is wanting to actually _do _something, _fix _some stench that Obama left in the White House on his way out.

Turnbull's problem is he tends to wait to see which way the populace is trending before he dares make any decision.  Always measured, always proper....never delivers.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, it a bit like the Victorian Libs signing a road contract just before the election.




Off topic buddy...The Thread is about Donald Trump not the Victorian Liberal Party.

The dumb deal was done with Obama after Trump had won the election not before.


----------



## luutzu

PPP explained.

Wow. Muslims and poor people are the problem.


----------



## moXJO

Like I said before....
Trump is the best thing to happen to Australia and he is doing exactly what I thought he would. We might engage with asia a lot more and look for opportunities a lot more seriously there. US never had our interests at heart.


----------



## Tisme

Apparently we have been taking advantage of the US, so says Trump...however:

http://www.dirigogroup.com.au/blog/who-does-australia-trade-with


----------



## Wysiwyg

I don't see the sense in painting a big target on oneself and ones country. Only time will reveal if this bloke was wise or stupid. On the surface he is stupid. A stupid person with great power. Uhhh.


----------



## Tisme

Wysiwyg said:


> I don't see the sense in painting a big target on oneself and ones country. Only time will reveal if this bloke was wise or stupid. On the surface he is stupid. A stupid person with great power. Uhhh.




I don't understand why Australian's would be upset over someone questioning a people trading scheme thought up by a dud Prime Minister and govt of Oz.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I don't understand why Australian's would be upset over someone questioning a people trading scheme thought up by a dud Prime Minister and govt of Oz.




My thoughts too. Turnbull should cancel the deal and at least get back onside with the US, or it might harm relations down the track.

This deal has too much of the Slippery Sam about it, like Utegate.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

basilio said:


> Would you care to reconsider your  views GringottsBank ?




The moment a country says "who are we?" and can't answer it because there's so many competing cultures, there's a big problem.  There's fragmentation and confusion.

Countries need an identity if they are to thrive.  They can't thrive without an identity.  Multi-culturalism erodes identity.  He's attempting to restore that.

What bothers me most is the lefties who sing about multi-culturalism, then *only *mix with their little clique (same colour, same religion, same school, same part of the city).  Walk into any public space, restaurant, bar and find the same thing.  'Like' mixing only with 'like', all in separate little *divided *groups according to colour mostly, and yet they defend multi-culturalism like their life depended on it.  Very typical of the brainwashed masses.  It is very rare that anyone actually mixes outside their own culture.

So, getting back to the question.  Trump is attempting to re-create the old America, which was much more homogenous.  It won't work, but that's what he's trying to do because he knows unity/homgeneity will translate into prosperity.  You can't have prosperity when all the little cultures are divided.  Cultural mixing is good, but if you get too much of it, you got problems.  Particularly so if the differences are vast - and they are.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Here's a good analogy.

Imagine two rowing boats in a race - coxed fours.  One is crewed by a group of guys so similar to each other they are like brothers.  They along like a house on fire.  The other boat is like the proverbial joke - an Englishman, Iranian, African and Chinaman.  I don't need to finish...

Winning isn't everything, but we need to decide what's more important because you can't win when there's division and different agendas in the one boat.  Maybe having a mixed crew _*is *_a better goal.  Is it?


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> Here's a good analogy.
> 
> Imagine two rowing boats in a race - coxed fours.  One is crewed by a group of guys so similar to each other they are like brothers.  They along like a house on fire.  The other boat is like the proverbial joke - an Englishman, Iranian, African and Chinaman.  I don't need to finish...
> 
> Winning isn't everything, but we need to decide what's more important because you can't win when there's division and different agendas in the one boat.  Maybe having a mixed crew _*is *_a better goal.  Is it?




I take the view that multiculturalism is ok up to a point, the difficulty is finding where that point is.

If you have people that want to obey different sets of rules from the majority, then that's a problem, but you also get friction just when one group gets too large and the others don't like it.

Fiji had a military coup because the Indian Fijians had too much power and influence for the indigenous Fijian's and they didn't like it. The same could happen here at some stage if a particular ethnic group was considered to be running things for themselves but that's probably a long way off.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

SirRumpole said:


> I take the view that multiculturalism is ok up to a point, the difficulty is finding where that point is.
> 
> If you have people that want to obey different sets of rules from the majority, then that's a problem, but you also get friction just when one group gets too large and the others don't like it.
> 
> Fiji had a military coup because the Indian Fijians had too much power and influence for the indigenous Fijian's and they didn't like it. The same could happen here at some stage if a particular ethnic group was considered to be running things for themselves but that's probably a long way off.




Well Melbourne CBD was absolutely swamped by Chinese last week for their New Year and the media was encouraging Melbournians to celebrate it.  What on earth is going on?  Does our whole city grind to a halt when Octoberfest is running?  Thanks Giving Day?  Lapland's national day?  This is a numbers game and the minority cultures know it.  They want to impose their culture on us by sheer numbers. Muslims are the same.  If they had their way, we'd all be observing Ramadan.

Look: if people are happy to lose their culture and be taken over by other country's cultures, that's their choice.  But it's not my choice.


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> Here's a good analogy.
> 
> Imagine two rowing boats in a race - coxed fours.  One is crewed by a group of guys so similar to each other they are like brothers.  They along like a house on fire.  The other boat is like the proverbial joke - an Englishman, Iranian, African and Chinaman.  I don't need to finish...
> 
> Winning isn't everything, but we need to decide what's more important because you can't win when there's division and different agendas in the one boat.  Maybe having a mixed crew _*is *_a better goal.  Is it?



It's not a good analogy,  because the real world is full of successful sporting teams that have been comprised of a mixture of different cultures and other backgrounds.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Ves said:


> It's not a good analogy,  because the real world is full of successful sporting teams that have been comprised of a mixture of different cultures and other backgrounds.




What, like the Australian Davis Cup team of the last few years?  I can't think of any.


----------



## Tink

Our heritage, laws and traditions are Christian.


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> What, like the Australian Davis Cup team of the last few years?  I can't think of any.



Umm,  I dunno,  turn on the NBA or some European soccer at some point.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Tink said:


> Our heritage, laws and traditions are Christian.





Ves said:


> Umm,  I dunno,  turn on the NBA or some European soccer at some point.




Let's stick to the facts - NBA has a mono-culture which is black.  I'm fine with that by the way.  They are obviously better at it than other races.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Gringotts Bank said:


> Well Melbourne CBD was absolutely swamped by Chinese last week for their New Year and the media was encouraging Melbournians to celebrate it.  What on earth is going on?  .



I haven't seen any of that activity or expectation. Really think it is the capitals that have the cultural diversity scenes obviously because of the greater concentrations of non whites. In this town there are some Chinese takeaway but that is the only influence culturally.


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> NBA has a mono-culture which is black.



That's a ridiculous statement.  Black people don't have a mono-culture.

Love how you just skipped over the European soccer too.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Like I said before....
> Trump is the best thing to happen to Australia and he is doing exactly what I thought he would. We might engage with asia a lot more and look for opportunities a lot more seriously there. US never had our interests at heart.




I don't think there's any resource-rich country in the world that could do what it pleases without US permission or enjoying its peacekeeping.

Big little Australia is no difference.

Remember when we lease a Darwin port to China? Uncle Sam was not happy and all our Malcolm could do was joke that ey man, it's no secret that we plan to lease the port, just so sorry you guys didn't read the Darwin advertiser. 

Those who own their place tend to have a different reply. Such as, it's my freaking house and I can do whatever I want with it.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Apparently we have been taking advantage of the US, so says Trump...however:
> 
> http://www.dirigogroup.com.au/blog/who-does-australia-trade-with




Yup, poor America, everyone is taking advantage of it; and all its trade deals are bad and terrible to its interests.

It takes a Trump to ask why are we in the ME fighting ISIS and not just take its oil? Why aren't the US making better deals.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Ves said:


> That's a ridiculous statement.  Black people don't have a mono-culture.
> 
> Love how you just skipped over the European soccer too.




I don't know anything about soccer.

I always ask this of people who support multi-culturalism.  When you socialize, how many people of cultures other than your own are present?  None?  How many Aborigines?  How many Greeks?  How many Turks?  How many French?  How many Africans?  How many Iranians?  Just your own little culture, right?  Your own people.  Would you say that's divisive and racist, or just exclusive (in the true sense of the word).


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> I always ask this of people who support multi-culturalism.  When you socialize, how many people of cultures other than your own are present?  None?  How many Aborigines?  How many Greeks?  How many Turks?  How many French?  How many Africans?  How many Iranians?  Just your own little culture, right?  Your own people.  Would you say that's divisive and racist, or just exclusive (in the true sense of the word).



That's a loaded question.

I will also add that the absence of something happening is not really a criticism of the success/failure of an act itself.

A lot of the people who avoid interaction with other cultures probably do so because they are unfamiliar with them.  At the end of the day if you haven't experienced something then you really have no place talking about it.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> Trump is attempting to re-create the old America, which was much more homogenous. *It won't work*, but




Those are the key words "it won't work".

If you know something isn't going to work and you do it anyway you are a dill.

Instead of driving people apart, try to find some common ground.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't know anything about soccer.
> 
> I always ask this of people who support multi-culturalism.  When you socialize, how many people of cultures other than your own are present?  None?  How many Aborigines?  How many Greeks?  How many Turks?  How many French?  How many Africans?  How many Iranians?  Just your own little culture, right?  Your own people.  Would you say that's divisive and racist, or just exclusive (in the true sense of the word).




Content of their character, not colour of their skin, as a doctor once ordered.

Obvious point is that there are good and bad in every culture.


----------



## SirRumpole

Excellent analysis by Michelle Grattan, I think she is spot on. If Trump does us a favour this time, what will he expect in return down the track ?

*Grattan on Friday: Malcolm Turnbull should walk away from refugee deal*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...-turnbull-walk-away-from-refugee-deal/8238458


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Ves said:


> That's a loaded question.




Of course it is.  I know the answer.  



SirRumpole said:


> Instead of driving people apart, try to find some common ground.




Many years ago I recall a guy at uni who was Indian.  In those days universities were pretty much white and no one really associated with him (that was the norm).  But he was quite a funny guy and I'd sometimes knock about with him in tutes, though not socialize.  One day he asks me to a party at his house.  I go and am met with maybe 150 Indians crowded into this small house.  I was the only white.  I didn't like the food, the music, the conversation, the throng of cousins, aunties and uncles.  What are you saying, I should have made more of an effort?  I know what I like, and it wasn't that.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> What are you saying, I should have made more of an effort?




Obviously, your common ground was your association at uni. If you didn't like his parties you didn't have to go, but I don't see that as a reason to dump him completely. You could have invited him to a party where he was the only Indian.


----------



## noco

There is little doubt in my mind Obama has tricked Turnbull in Turnbull's desperation to remove asylum seekers from Manus and Nauru.
Perhaps Turnbull should have been more astute and checked to see if Trump approved before accepting Obama's deal.

*Latham: Obama has played dreadful role

 Former federal Labor leader and now political commentator Mark Latham has told Seven’s Sunrise program that Barack Obama “put a little ticking time bomb in the White House desk”.

 “It is very, very important to get the full picture here. Everyone is talking about Trump and Turnbull. What about the third person in this deal, Obama?” Latham said.

 2Mark Latham.
2Mark Latham.
“He played a dreadful role in the handover period from Trump selection to the inauguration. And Obama has gone out of his way to put a little ticking time bomb in the White House desk, for Donald Trump, by forcing him to either break his election promise to the American people with this sort of refugee intake not coming into the United States, or for Trump to disappoint the Turnbull government and loosen some of the relations with a longtime ally in Australia.

 “So Obama here has played dreadful role in forcing his successor into making an awkward choice between an election promise, a commitment to the American people, or a commitment to Australia…

 “The problem for Malcolm Turnbull was, he went along with Obama’s trick. He went along with the trick without ever getting a guarantee from the incoming president, the more important person, that he would be able to honour it.”

 Meanwhile former Victorian Liberal premier Jeff Kennett told Sunrise program that “Trump is only reflecting the view that most of us hold”.

 Jeff Kennett.
Jeff Kennett.
“When this deal was announced here in Australia, I am quite sure there would not have been one Australian who didn’t ask themselves the question, why has the United States agreed to take our issue? Why? Why have they done it?” he said.

 “So I think President Trump is only reflecting the view that most of us hold. We would not take refugees from other parts of the world. So why are they taking our issue?

 “We have to deal with this problem ourselves, and have a way of more quickly processing it. I think you will find that this issue, we are not going to see anyone go to America. … The President gave Australia the opportunity and the recognition to be talked to along with Germany and Russia and others, so he had us in his top five, and I don’t know the damage that this is going to do to our relationship but I tell you what, we are not off to a good start.”

 Sam Buckingham-Jones
*





Trump Turnbull phone call on refugee deal
*7.50am: Latham: Obama has played dreadful role
theaustralian.com.au*


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Excellent analysis by Michelle Grattan, I think she is spot on. If Trump does us a favour this time, what will he expect in return down the track ?
> 
> *Grattan on Friday: Malcolm Turnbull should walk away from refugee deal*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...-turnbull-walk-away-from-refugee-deal/8238458




Is that Trumbull? Trumbella? Turnball... 

Heard our Mal got an earful from el presidente God Emperor Trump too.

We went with the yank into Vietnam and years later its Defence chief couldn't be asked to mention us as an ally. And now this?  Have to say, as an Aussie I'm being made to feel real small.

Bush Jr. did gave our Howard a lot of love though. I guess they're trying to tell us that we have to get really excited about following orders.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Of course it is.  I know the answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Many years ago I recall a guy at uni who was Indian.  In those days universities were pretty much white and no one really associated with him (that was the norm).  But he was quite a funny guy and I'd sometimes knock about with him in tutes, though not socialize.  One day he asks me to a party at his house.  I go and am met with maybe 150 Indians crowded into this small house.  I was the only white.  I didn't like the food, the music, the conversation, the throng of cousins, aunties and uncles.  What are you saying, I should have made more of an effort?  I know what I like, and it wasn't that.




Maybe the Indians were nervous and can't socialise seeing a White guy in their house. Minds were focused on whether they've nailed down the tea, the diamonds and other collectibles.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

SirRumpole said:


> Obviously, your common ground was your association at uni. If you didn't like his parties you didn't have to go, but I don't see that as a reason to dump him completely. You could have invited him to a party where he was the only Indian.




What I learned from that and a few other experiences is that cultures are mechanisms of identity, and as such, they seek to dominate and spread their influence.  It's a competition and there's just no getting around that fact.  A competition for space and resources; a place where if you don't dominate, you're being dominated.  It all looks friendly on the surface, but cultures are simple expressions of mass egoic drive.

So getting back onto Trump - he is clearly seeking to promote and maintain Anglo-Celtic culture. He recognizes it's a competition.  If we had Ellen Degeneres as President, she would be even more extreme in pushing her culture which is one of female superiority and lesbianism.  Like Hillary, she would promote herself as egalitarian, then discriminate against everyone who is different to her.  Human nature is pretty ugly.  I'm not excusing Trump, but at least he is up front about what he's doing.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> What I learned from that and a few other experiences is that cultures are mechanisms of identity, and as such, they seek to dominate and spread their influence.  It's a competition and there's just no getting around that fact.  A competition for space and resources; a place where if you don't dominate, you're being dominated.  It all looks friendly on the surface, but cultures are simple expressions of mass egoic drive.
> 
> So getting back onto Trump - he is clearly seeking to promote and maintain Anglo-Celtic culture. He recognizes it's a competition.  If we had Ellen Degeneres as President, she would be even more extreme in pushing her culture which is one of female superiority and lesbianism.  Like Hillary, she would promote herself as egalitarian, then discriminate against everyone who is different to her.  Human nature is pretty ugly.  I'm not excusing Trump, but at least he is up front about what he's doing.




Don't think Hillary is an egalitarian. 

Trump got a fair bit of German blood in him right? Shouldn't we all get a bit nervous when a German want to make anything great again?  Ah crap, I don't have any German friend to say I'm not racist 

While great powers and their warmongers all want to dominate and annex other (weaker) states, that's an old and outdated model that will do a lot more harm than "good". 

The world has run out of easy pickings and so it'll make more economic sense to make peace rather than make war to make peace.

So for Trump and other empire builders to be upping the ante on nuclear arms; build up military might; extract and exploit natural resources that will soon run out, or will kill all of us and run out... these are not what a rational, realistic, thinking leader ought to do to preserve and protect their people's interest and survival.

Not that any colonial war of conquest had ever really been about enriching the plebs... but at least during the time of Rome and such, you can kinda make that case. 

In this nuclear age where great powers cannot directly hit each other; and where softer targets do fight back or potentially fight back (forcing you to protect everywhere, at extrememly high costs)... 

So it's all for self-aggrandisement and personal greed rather than anything sort of noble intent to benefit "his" brother of a different mother.


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> What I learned from that and a few other experiences is that cultures are mechanisms of identity, and as such, they seek to dominate and spread their influence.  It's a competition and there's just no getting around that fact.  A competition for space and resources; a place where if you don't dominate, you're being dominated.  It all looks friendly on the surface, but cultures are simple expressions of mass egoic drive.



That's one attitude towards it.

Another one is that culture is a function of refinement,  or expression, or even an elevation of the best actions and thoughts found within a given society or group of people.


----------



## Ves

By the way,  the internet is a fascinating place for many reasons,  but pertinent to this conversation is the fact that you really have no idea in a lot of cases the identity of the person you are conversing with.   It's interesting because any of us could be having a civil discussion with someone else of a completely different race/culture.  In other spheres you may consider them 'incompatible'  but on the internet a lot of people barely blink an eye unless their attention is drawn towards it.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Excellent analysis by Michelle Grattan, I think she is spot on. If Trump does us a favour this time, what will he expect in return down the track ?
> 
> *Grattan on Friday: Malcolm Turnbull should walk away from refugee deal*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...-turnbull-walk-away-from-refugee-deal/8238458




I agree with that. We don't need to get on Trump's merry-go-round.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> I agree with that. We don't need to get on Trump's merry-go-round.




Turnbull should never have walked into the deal in the first place....He got caught with his pants down around his ankles....Fancy falling for a three card trick by Obama.


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> There is little doubt in my mind Obama has tricked Turnbull in Turnbull's desperation to remove asylum seekers from Manus and Nauru.
> Perhaps Turnbull should have been more astute and checked to see if Trump approved before accepting Obama's deal.
> 
> *Latham: Obama has played dreadful role
> 
> Former federal Labor leader and now political commentator Mark Latham has told Seven’s Sunrise program that Barack Obama “put a little ticking time bomb in the White House desk”.
> 
> “It is very, very important to get the full picture here. Everyone is talking about Trump and Turnbull. What about the third person in this deal, Obama?” Latham said.
> 
> 2Mark Latham.
> 2Mark Latham.
> “He played a dreadful role in the handover period from Trump selection to the inauguration. And Obama has gone out of his way to put a little ticking time bomb in the White House desk, for Donald Trump, by forcing him to either break his election promise to the American people with this sort of refugee intake not coming into the United States, or for Trump to disappoint the Turnbull government and loosen some of the relations with a longtime ally in Australia.
> 
> “So Obama here has played dreadful role in forcing his successor into making an awkward choice between an election promise, a commitment to the American people, or a commitment to Australia…*
> ...blah blah
> *theaustralian.com.au*




In Sept Obama announced he would increase the intake from 85k to 110k. The Nauru and Manus prisoners were ideal because they had already been vetted by numerous authorities.

In December there were various articles about Trump probably reneging on the deal.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> In Sept Obama announced he would increase the intake from 85k to 110k. The Nauru and Manus prisoners were ideal because they had already been vetted by numerous authorities.
> 
> In December there were various articles about Trump probably reneging on the deal.




Vetting, yes. 

By numerous authorities, yes.

But were they "extreme vetting"? The Donald's high standard of vetting that led to always overpaying for properties and loses running casinos.


Some American comedian on YouTube made a point that all these years, we've either starve or bomb the crap out of all these countries and not too much noise was raised about it.

But to ban people from these countries. Now that's just too much.

Come on man, we all know that beside refugees from those countries, those who can afford to fly in bring in dollars and business. Can't be racist and mean like that. That's outrageous. [that's not to say it's a good thing]


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> Vetting, yes.
> 
> Some American comedian on YouTube made a point that all these years, we've either starve or bomb the crap out of all these countries and not too much noise was raised about it.




Yeh it's alright to murder in cold blood, but don't ever deny anyone access to your country, even if they suck the lifeblood out of social services and plot to bring down western civilization.  Goes to show how f#cking dumb lefties are.


----------



## Tisme

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh it's alright to murder in cold blood, but don't ever deny anyone access to your country, even if they suck the lifeblood out of social services and plot to bring down western civilization.  Goes to show how f#cking dumb lefties are.




You reckon "peace loving" religions like Islam is the Trojan horse and the west is Troy?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Tisme said:


> You reckon "peace loving" religions like Islam is the Trojan horse and the west is Troy?




Not sure if I'd put it like that.  Most Muslims are simply after a better life, more money and a peaceful existence.  They come to Aus and the US because, aside from a few well-known exceptions, the M.E. is a sh1thole and no one would in their right mind would choose that over Western civilization.  They get here and find these enormous cultural differences.  Welfare services get overwhelmed and they become totally segregated from the rest of the population.  It's just the most idiotic process.  The UN, who never seem to lift a goddamn finger to help anyone, leave conflicts to the US army to sort out.  US forces shouldn't even be there in the first place, but the UN is happy for them to do the dirty work because the UN is gutless and irresponsible.


----------



## noco

Gringotts Bank said:


> Not sure if I'd put it like that.  Most Muslims are simply after a better life, more money and a peaceful existence.  They come to Aus and the US because, aside from a few well-known exceptions, the M.E. is a sh1thole and no one would in their right mind would choose that over Western civilization.  They get here and find these enormous cultural differences.  Welfare services get overwhelmed and they become totally segregated from the rest of the population.  It's just the most idiotic process.  The UN, who never seem to lift a goddamn finger to help anyone, leave conflicts to the US army to sort out.  US forces shouldn't even be there in the first place, but the UN is happy for them to do the dirty work because the UN is gutless and irresponsible.




The UN is bankrupt and disorganized and when the USA pull out they will disintegrate.


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> In Sept Obama announced he would increase the intake from 85k to 110k. The Nauru and Manus prisoners were ideal because they had already been vetted by numerous authorities.
> 
> In December there were various articles about Trump probably reneging on the deal.




What seems to have been lost is that this was a refugee swap. Australia wasn't just handing over it's dirty laundry, we we're taking some refugees bound for the US.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> You reckon "peace loving" religions like Islam is the Trojan horse and the west is Troy?




Mythical Troy is now part of Turkey right?

See? The Muslims have already taken Troy. Wait... Weren't the Arabs the Trojans then? Trojans flee the Greeks and found what came to be Rome. Rome built the Western world (Christian Rome that is )... So the Arabs built the Western world?


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Not sure if I'd put it like that.  Most Muslims are simply after a better life, more money and a peaceful existence.  They come to Aus and the US because, aside from a few well-known exceptions, the M.E. is a sh1thole and no one would in their right mind would choose that over Western civilization.  They get here and find these enormous cultural differences.  Welfare services get overwhelmed and they become totally segregated from the rest of the population.  It's just the most idiotic process.  The UN, who never seem to lift a goddamn finger to help anyone, leave conflicts to the US army to sort out.  US forces shouldn't even be there in the first place, but the UN is happy for them to do the dirty work because the UN is gutless and irresponsible.




There are welfare services in 'merka? Not for the poor and refugees dude. Maybe 6 months.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh it's alright to murder in cold blood, but don't ever deny anyone access to your country, even if they suck the lifeblood out of social services and plot to bring down western civilization.  Goes to show how f#cking dumb lefties are.




Wanting to end wars, save lives and money, remove the need to have to grudgingly take in refugees and foreign contractors and allies... that sounds very clever to me.


----------



## Bill M

I found this on YouTube.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Mythical Troy is now part of Turkey right?
> 
> See? The Muslims have already taken Troy. Wait... Weren't the Arabs the Trojans then? Trojans flee the Greeks and found what came to be Rome. Rome built the Western world (Christian Rome that is )... So the Arabs built the Western world?





No the Arabs weren't Greek nor Roman. However the Ottoman Turks were the real Arabs, the rest of them are just a hotchpotch of cross breeding. Originally the European Turks didn't need things like Thawbs and Desert wear, but because they conquered  countries where dark skinned people lived, they had to dress pre sunscreen 30+ to live in their new empire outposts.


----------



## Tink

Protecting the nation from foreign terrorist entry into the United States.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...-nation-foreign-terrorist-entry-united-states

-----------------------------------------------------

In my view, the political terrorists are within.

Look at the bombing of their university, because of a speaker.
We are seeing the same in Melbourne, with these rent a crowds.
Damaging private property.

Law enforcement should prioritise identifying, locating, and arresting members of these gangs, and it should treat them as the political terrorists they are.

----------------------------------------------------

_JFK wanted to send a man to the moon. Obama wanted to send a man to the women's restrooms._


----------



## Tisme

Now that I'm a twitter follower of Trump:

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump
23mDonald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump
*I will be interviewed by @oreillyfactor at 4:00 P.M. (prior to the #SuperBowl Pre-game Show) on Fox Network. Enjoy!*


----------



## Knobby22

Tisme said:


> Now that I'm a twitter follower of Trump:
> 
> 23mDonald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump
> *I will be interviewed by @oreillyfactor at 4:00 P.M. (prior to the #SuperBowl Pre-game Show) on Fox Network. Enjoy!*



Really?


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Now that I'm a twitter follower of Trump:
> 
> 23mDonald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump
> *I will be interviewed by @oreillyfactor at 4:00 P.M. (prior to the #SuperBowl Pre-game Show) on Fox Network. Enjoy!*




Thanks for the warning. I'll be sure to miss it.


----------



## SirRumpole

Good analysis by Ian Verrender, problems in industry relevant to all parts of the globe.

*What happens if Donald Trump's America starts producing everything at home?*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/ian-verrender-analysis-donald-trumps-america-first/8242878


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Good analysis by Ian Verrender, problems in industry relevant to all parts of the globe.
> 
> *What happens if Donald Trump's America starts producing everything at home?*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/ian-verrender-analysis-donald-trumps-america-first/8242878




The last "Gilded Age" was in the last quarter of the 19th century, when the army was small and industrial capitalism and expansion high. Skilled migration and know how from Europe stoked the growth. 

Two very profitable world wars gave the USA a great booty, probably peaking in the 1950's and it's been a gradual decay ever since as profiteering on large scale has dried up.

Trump's idea that there was once a land of milk and honey might be a bit naive. Some of my, now very aged, US friends reminded me over the years of their not so easy childhood lives of the 40's and 50's when many roads were dirt and they had to scab coal from railway tracks to heat the home...... and a few of them had cart and donkey !!!! Not much like the McCarthyism movies it seems.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The last "Gilded Age" was in the last quarter of the 19th century, when the army was small and industrial capitalism and expansion high. Skilled migration and know how from Europe stoked the growth.
> 
> Two very profitable world wars gave the USA a great booty, probably peaking in the 1950's and it's been a gradual decay ever since as profiteering on large scale has dried up.
> 
> Trump's idea that there was once a land of milk and honey might be a bit naive. Some of my, now very aged, US friends reminded me over the years of their not so easy childhood lives of the 40's and 50's when many roads were dirt and they had to scab coal from railway tracks to heat the home...... and a few of them had cart and donkey !!!! Not much like the McCarthyism movies it seems.




The Chinese says: Rare it is for great fortune to last three generations. 

It seems that Trump and his cabinet all think that America is great because it just is.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The Chinese says: Rare it is for great fortune to last three generations.
> 
> It seems that Trump and his cabinet all think that America is great because it just is.




Yeah every culture their own version, the most famous being the Lancashire proverb = “There’s nobbut three generations atween a clog and clog.”

The USA use the "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves" three generations rule which Andrew Carnegie was supposed to have coined after arriving from Scotland.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Yeah every culture their own version, the most famous being the Lancashire proverb = “There’s nobbut three generations atween a clog and clog.”
> 
> The USA use the "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves" three generations rule which Andrew Carnegie was supposed to have coined after arriving from Scotland.




I'm sure the Chinese coined that first though, long before Europeans and the Scots move out of their caves to fight the Romans.

ha ha


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I'm sure the Chinese coined that first though, long before Europeans and the Scots move out of their caves to fight the Romans.
> 
> ha ha





Yeah you are probably right.


----------



## explod

Trump's a real estate man and they (like care salesmen) shake anyones hand to make a quid.  No doe in climate crap or banking gamblers.  He'll shake the hand of Putin if its good for business and he'll make deals with China too. 

Hitler was nuts but Trump will organise auctions and fence off encumbrances.


----------



## moXJO

The real question that needs to be asked is: 
How long till trump quits? 

The guy is a media whor.e. And all the negative attention he is receiving must be cutting into family business profits.
How long is he going to stay and be hated if his policies keep getting blocked.
I  don't reckon he will last it out.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> The real question that needs to be asked is:
> How long till trump quits?
> 
> The guy is a media whor.e. And all the negative attention he is receiving must be cutting into family business profits.
> How long is he going to stay and be hated if his policies keep getting blocked.
> I  don't reckon he will last it out.




It will be a race between him quitting or being impeached.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> It will be a race between him quitting or being impeached.



Impeached????...What for?


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Impeached????...What for?




Conflict of interest in his business dealings.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...y/news-story/3c757458abcd842d3a4011d8fb3c54a3


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Conflict of interest in his business dealings.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...y/news-story/3c757458abcd842d3a4011d8fb3c54a3




In less than a fortnight, Mr Trump has already offended Mexicans, offended Australians, offended Muslims and offended women.
The Mexicans probably deserve it.
He has not offended me and millions of other Australians.
Offended Muslims....That would not be hard to do.
Offended women......That sounds more like a media beat up......The democrats flogged that one to death before he was elected....You know just like Labor's MEDISCARE.
Yes, I know off topic...so what?

It will be interesting to see if the impeachment stacks up...There could be a lot of huffing and puffing without the smoking gun.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> In less than a fortnight, Mr Trump has already offended Mexicans, offended Australians, offended Muslims and offended women.
> The Mexicans probably deserve it.
> He has not offended me and millions of other Australians.
> Offended Muslims....That would not be hard to do.
> Offended women......That sounds more like a media beat up......The democrats flogged that one to death before he was elected....You know just like Labor's MEDISCARE.
> Yes, I know off topic...so what?
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the impeachment stacks up...There could be a lot of huffing and puffing without the smoking gun.




He offended my Prime Minister so he offends me 

But yea, the others on that list he offended long before he took office. So that's alright.


----------



## Tink

Well the Greens don't believe in democracy.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-left.31648/


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> In less than a fortnight, Mr Trump has already offended Mexicans, offended Australians, offended Muslims and offended women.
> The Mexicans probably deserve it.
> He has not offended me and millions of other Australians.
> Offended Muslims....That would not be hard to do.
> Offended women......That sounds more like a media beat up......The democrats flogged that one to death before he was elected....You know just like Labor's MEDISCARE.
> Yes, I know off topic...so what?




The Mexicans deserve it?  A country of 122 million people and one of the US' biggest trading partners DESERVE to be insulted by the President of US?  Why?

The lack of professionalism and respect shown by Trump is absolutely astounding.  Even more astounding is how many people think it's acceptable for him to behave in this way, and to speak to people the way he does.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> The Mexicans deserve it?  A country of 122 million people and one of the US' biggest trading partners DESERVE to be* insulted by the President of US?  Why?*
> 
> The lack of professionalism and respect shown by Trump is absolutely astounding.  Even more astounding is how many people think it's acceptable for him to behave in this way, and to speak to people the way he does.




How many house keepers, maids, pool cleaners, upholsters, spray painters, and green keepers does a President need !!


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Junior said:


> The Mexicans deserve it?  A country of 122 million people and one of the US' biggest trading partners DESERVE to be insulted by the President of US?  Why?
> 
> The lack of professionalism and respect shown by Trump is absolutely astounding.  Even more astounding is how many people think it's acceptable for him to behave in this way, and to speak to people the way he does.




From what I've seen and heard, highly successful businesses always have a very controlling, hard-nosed, pushy leader.  Massive change seems to require a no-compromise approach and enormous drive.   There's no love lost - it's progress at the expense of everything else.  Google is like this.  Some say MS is like this.  You tow the company line and you make them money, or you're pushed out.  The results they get eclipse everything else, but there might be another cost which is not shown in the annual report.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Found this quote apt.

“Whoever controls the media, controls the mind” 
― Jim Morrison


----------



## Junior

Gringotts Bank said:


> From what I've seen and heard, highly successful businesses always have a very controlling, hard-nosed, pushy leader.  Massive change seems to require a no-compromise approach and enormous drive.   There's no love lost - it's progress at the expense of everything else.  Google is like this.  Some say MS is like this.  You tow the company line and you make them money, or you're pushed out.  The results they get eclipse everything else, but there might be another cost which is not shown in the annual report.




Except that the United States is not a private business.  It should not be overseen by a man who cares only for himself and his personal business interests.  A country needs a leader who is there to represent the inhabitants of that country.  This involves an understanding of foreign policy and how to deal with leaders of other nations.  His approach so far has been to insult and bully individuals and entire nations via his social media account.  Is this a no-compromise approach or just completely juvenile and unprofessional?  

I find it very hard to believe this approach will be in any way successful.  

He's damaging important relationships which have been nurtured for decades.  As previously discussed, he has insulted and criticised many of their major trading partners.  Unwinding free and open trade cannot lead to prosperity.  It will lead to a lack of competitiveness.  The Americans are about to find that out the hard way.


----------



## McLovin

Junior said:


> A country needs a leader who is there to represent the inhabitants of that country.




It looks more like he's trying to divide the inhabitants of his country.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Junior said:


> Except that the United States is not a private business.  It should not be overseen by a man who cares only for himself and his personal business interests.  A country needs a leader who is there to represent the inhabitants of that country.  This involves an understanding of foreign policy and how to deal with leaders of other nations.  His approach so far has been to insult and bully individuals and entire nations via his social media account.  Is this a no-compromise approach or just completely juvenile and unprofessional?
> 
> I find it very hard to believe this approach will be in any way successful.
> 
> He's damaging important relationships which have been nurtured for decades.  As previously discussed, he has insulted and criticised many of their major trading partners.  Unwinding free and open trade cannot lead to prosperity.  It will lead to a lack of competitiveness.  The Americans are about to find that out the hard way.




A country thrives or fails based mainly on its economy, doesn't it?  Why wouldn't a hard-nosed businessman be a perfect fit?  If Bill Gates was considerate, respectful and gentle person, MS wouldn't be where it is today.  Trump's personality is grating, but does have a chance at creating actual change.  No one else did, or does.  Pollies nowadays are so afraid of disapproval, their whole lives revolve around not upsetting the perpetually outraged Twitterati.

People say he's only interested in building his own wealth.  I don't believe that, given the 10's of millions of his own money spent on campaigning, and his advancing age.  He is hell bent on being the American savior - which isn't a good idea - but that's his aim, I believe.  There's altruism there (or is it a drive to be the hero?  not sure).  Most of the electorate can't see beyond the end of the week, so long term planning always looks like a bad thing.  Sacrifice for the greater long term good means nothing to most people, especially youth.

International relations are of little concern for a protectionist.  He is looking at his own country's problems, which I find most appropriate.  Why try to suck up to Australia and other counties when your own country is a complete mess?  We are free to do the same if only we had strong leaders.

Trump has obvious downsides too, which I'm well aware of.  It might not sound like it here, but I'm actually quite ambivalent about him.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> A country thrives or fails based mainly on its economy, doesn't it?  Why wouldn't a hard-nosed businessman be a perfect fit?  If Bill Gates was considerate, respectful and gentle person, MS wouldn't be where it is today.  Trump's personality is grating, but does have a chance at creating actual change.  No one else did, or does.  Pollies nowadays are so afraid of disapproval, their whole lives revolve around not upsetting the perpetually outraged Twitterati.
> 
> People say he's only interested in building his own wealth.  I don't believe that, given the 10's of millions of his own money spent on campaigning, and his advancing age.  He is hell bent on being the American savior - which isn't a good idea - but that's his aim, I believe.  There's definitely altruism there.  Most of the electorate can't see beyond the end of the week, so long term planning always looks like a bad thing.  Sacrifice for the greater long term good means nothing to most people, especially youth.
> 
> International relations are of little concern for a protectionist.  He is looking at his own country's problems, which I find most appropriate.  Why try to suck up to Australia and other counties when your own country is a complete mess?  We are free to do the same if only we had strong leaders.
> 
> Trump has obvious downsides too, which I'm well aware of.  It might not sound like it here, but I'm actually quite ambivalent about him.




He didn't spent his own money to campaign. I know he says he does because he's so rich and all.

But reality is no one was lending or donating to his campaign (they thought it was a bad investment) at first. So he himself *lend* to his campaign. 

Then as he started to win, money started pouring in. And as a businessman, he got a price for how much donation will get you a seat at the table, how much as a secretary. For example, the Billionaire DeVos donated some $9.5M to Trump, she got nominated to be Secretary of Education. All so that she can quickly privatise the US public education system like she has been trying to do; and of course you can forget about trying to help out the kids and their parents owing eyeball level of student debt because DeVos has a business that collects on those student debt. 

Back to the point... when money comes into the campaign, all the money Trump has loaned to his campaign are then repaid. Maybe with interest. Who wouldn't charge interest on money they lent themselves right?

And remember Trump's promise to sell off all his assets and business if he became president because, he says, making America great again is all that he wanted to do. He doesn't care for money, he'll get rid of all of it.

They're now control by his two sons... and if they don't manage it properly he'll fire them, he says.

Watch how big business and other countries will start holding functions and staying at Trump Hotels all over the world now. 

And I wouldn't be surprised if Trump's kids decided to fire all the security staff at Trump anything, then have the Secret Service and US gov't station and pay for all the security as those assets are all targets of terrorists and whatever.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> He didn't spent his own money to campaign. I know he says he does because he's so rich and all.
> 
> But reality is no one was lending or donating to his campaign (they thought it was a bad investment) at first. So he himself *lend* to his campaign.
> 
> Then as he started to win, money started pouring in. And as a businessman, he got a price for how much donation will get you a seat at the table, how much as a secretary. For example, the Billionaire DeVos donated some $9.5M to Trump, she got nominated to be Secretary of Education. All so that she can quickly privatise the US public education system like she has been trying to do; and of course you can forget about trying to help out the kids and their parents owing eyeball level of student debt because DeVos has a business that collects on those student debt.
> 
> Back to the point... when money comes into the campaign, all the money Trump has loaned to his campaign are then repaid. Maybe with interest. Who wouldn't charge interest on money they lent themselves right?
> 
> And remember Trump's promise to sell off all his assets and business if he became president because, he says, making America great again is all that he wanted to do. He doesn't care for money, he'll get rid of all of it.
> 
> They're now control by his two sons... and if they don't manage it properly he'll fire them, he says.
> 
> Watch how big business and other countries will start holding functions and staying at Trump Hotels all over the world now.
> 
> And I wouldn't be surprised if Trump's kids decided to fire all the security staff at Trump anything, then have the Secret Service and US gov't station and pay for all the security as those assets are all targets of terrorists and whatever.




On tonight's news, Google, Facebook and Uber are looking to take legal action against Trump.  Looking uncertain for the future of financial markets and general sentiment, isn't it?  Cracks are showing much earlier than expected.


----------



## SirRumpole

Gringotts Bank said:


> People say he's only interested in building his own wealth. I don't believe that, given the 10's of millions of his own money spent on campaigning, and his advancing age.




He hasn't given much of his enormous wealth to charity, nor as far as I'm aware has he released his tax returns which leads to the conclusion that he is greedy and shifty and not a good example for the nation.


----------



## Smurf1976

luutzu said:


> Watch how big business and other countries will start holding functions and staying at Trump Hotels all over the world now.




I think it's a given that his hotels are going to benefit as you describe. If you're hoping to do a deal with Trump then you don't stay in a rival hotel now do you.....


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> I think it's a given that his hotels are going to benefit as you describe. If you're hoping to do a deal with Trump then you don't stay in a rival hotel now do you.....




That's a classic conflict of interest, but I doubt if anyone can do anything about it.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> That's a classic conflict of interest, but I doubt if anyone can do anything about it.




Those can do anything about it won't want to do anything about it. It's great to know what the price is.


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> I think it's a given that his hotels are going to benefit as you describe. If you're hoping to do a deal with Trump then you don't stay in a rival hotel now do you.....




Imagine an out of town diplomat heading to meet Trump and not stay at one of his hotels. How do you break ice? What happen if he asks where are you staying?

Trump is going to make the Clinton Foundation look like amateur hour.


----------



## noco

Wysiwyg said:


> Found this quote apt.
> 
> “Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”
> ― Jim Morrison




You are so correct...That is why the Labor Party have control of the ABC, GETUP and QandA.....They continue to use these outlets for their propaganda.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Wysiwyg said:


> Found this quote apt.
> 
> “Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”
> ― Jim Morrison




The Media has been burst wide open by Trump. 

The only valid response is SNL one night a week. 

The Media no longer exists as it did in Jim Morrison's day. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> You are so correct...That is why the Labor Party have control of the ABC, GETUP and QandA.....They continue to use these outlets for their propaganda.




So ?, the Liberals have control of Murdoch, or vice versa, and of Bolt , Ray Hadley, Alan Jones, Steve Price, Kyle Sandlihands etc etc.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> So ?, the Liberals have control of Murdoch, or vice versa, and of Bolt , Ray Hadley, Alan Jones, Steve Price, Kyle Sandlihands etc etc.




Besides pretty young ladies, nobody control uncle Rupee.


----------



## Smurf1976

luutzu said:


> Imagine an out of town diplomat heading to meet Trump and not stay at one of his hotels. How do you break ice? What happen if he asks where are you staying?



Indeed.

Or if you're a big corporation seeking favour from government then make sure that whenever you have staff traveling, they stay in a Trump hotel if there's one in that city. Always. Even if it's just some low level employee attending a training course who'd normally be given an allowance of $100 for accommodation, just put them up with Trump and make sure it's in the businesses' name. Or if you're really keen, rent some office space from him too. A minor cost if you stand to make a fortune via whatever deal with government.

Trump (the business) will gain even from those not seeking anything from Trump (the President). The publicity for the Trump brand by virtue of him being President is something that money just couldn't buy. If you're into status and symbolic stuff like that then so far as hotels are concerned you can't really top staying in one that's owned by the actual President of the USA.

In all of that, perception matters as much or more than reality. Even if Trump acts strictly in the interests of the US and completely ignores any benefit to his business, the perception will always be there that he has a conflict of interest and may be acting to benefit his business.


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> Of course it will. It's a tax on US consumers. Who do you think will be the first to complain about the rising cost of products? The prez has pretty limited scope to raise taxes without congressional approval, so I'd put it more in the sabre rattling column at the moment.
> 
> Maybe Mexico could lease some land to China for a military base along the border to recoup some of the money they miss out on.




I think, more of an issue, is Australia *strengthening *ties with China, it would just about make a China wall on the West coast of the Pacific.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> So ?, the Liberals have control of Murdoch, or vice versa, and of Bolt , Ray Hadley, Alan Jones, Steve Price, Kyle Sandlihands etc etc.




Yes but do the Liberals have control of Murdoch?........When you watch Bolt and Jones being so critical of Turnbull and the Liberal Party you have to wonder.... there is a difference to the Labor controlled ABC which is financed by the tax payer.


----------



## Junior

Gringotts Bank said:


> A country thrives or fails based mainly on its economy, doesn't it?  Why wouldn't a hard-nosed businessman be a perfect fit?  If Bill Gates was considerate, respectful and gentle person, MS wouldn't be where it is today.  Trump's personality is grating, but does have a chance at creating actual change.  No one else did, or does.  Pollies nowadays are so afraid of disapproval, their whole lives revolve around not upsetting the perpetually outraged Twitterati.
> 
> People say he's only interested in building his own wealth.  I don't believe that, given the 10's of millions of his own money spent on campaigning, and his advancing age.  He is hell bent on being the American savior - which isn't a good idea - but that's his aim, I believe.  There's altruism there (or is it a drive to be the hero?  not sure).  Most of the electorate can't see beyond the end of the week, so long term planning always looks like a bad thing.  Sacrifice for the greater long term good means nothing to most people, especially youth.
> 
> International relations are of little concern for a protectionist.  He is looking at his own country's problems, which I find most appropriate.  Why try to suck up to Australia and other counties when your own country is a complete mess?  We are free to do the same if only we had strong leaders.
> 
> Trump has obvious downsides too, which I'm well aware of.  It might not sound like it here, but I'm actually quite ambivalent about him.




I agree with your first point.  

I'm just not convinced that any of his policies resemble that of an astute economic manager.  He wants to slash taxes and massively boost spending....with a budget that is is already in deficit and a balance sheet which has a higher debt to GDP ratio of any other time in the nation's history.  If he actually implements these policies I shudder to think what the state of the federal budget will be in 4 years' time.

His only big revenue raising measure is to slap a 35% tax on imports from one of their biggest trading partners.....inflation??? How will the average Joe afford his weekly shop at Walmart?

Trump thinks business will simply fall into line and re-open factories back home creating millions of jobs.  I don't know about that....maybe they will simply open up somewhere else in Asia or South America with cheap labour and no 35% tariff?  If factories do re-open in the states, rest assured they will create f-all jobs beyond initial construction phase, as everything will be automated.

We'll see what happens, but I really believe he is selling an impossible dream to the masses, which in the end will only serve to help his private business ventures, and Russia. 

Australia needs to lurk in the shadows and use this opportunity to strengthen ties with Asia, and steal market share from the US in terms of tourism, skill-based industries and other areas.


----------



## Tisme

For all you laggards this is typical Trump ranting on Twitter (start at tweet 5):


*Donald J. Trump* ‏@realDonaldTrump  9h9 hours ago
..Ryan died on a winning mission ( according to General Mattis), not a "failure." Time for the U.S. to get smart and start winning again!

19,411 replies10,415 retweets57,236 likes




*Donald J. Trump* ‏@realDonaldTrump  9h9 hours ago
...long he doesn't know how to win anymore, just look at the mess our country is in - bogged down in conflict all over the place. Our hero..

11,150 replies8,757 retweets44,410 likes




*Donald J. Trump* ‏@realDonaldTrump  9h9 hours ago
Sen. McCain should not be talking about the success or failure of a mission to the media. Only emboldens the enemy! He's been losing so....

17,167 replies11,351 retweets54,303 likes




*Donald J. Trump* ‏@realDonaldTrump  9h9 hours ago
Chris Cuomo, in his interview with Sen. Blumenthal, never asked him about his long-term lie about his brave "service" in Vietnam. FAKE NEWS!

16,198 replies10,956 retweets48,530 likes




*Donald J. Trump* ‏@realDonaldTrump  11h11 hours ago
Sen.Richard Blumenthal, who never fought in Vietnam when he said for years he had (major lie),now misrepresents what Judge Gorsuch told him?

23,184 replies15,468 retweets61,013 likes


----------



## SirRumpole

The longer Trump goes on with his hate rhetoric and blatant conflict of interest over his and his families financial affairs the more likely it is that the Republics will vote to impeach him to get rid of the stink and put one of their own back in.

He's on borrowed time I think.


----------



## SirRumpole

The US Appeals Court has voted unanimously to uphold the suspension of Donald Trump's travel ban.

Another blow to his credibility.


----------



## Ves

SirRumpole said:


> The US Appeals Court has voted unanimously to uphold the suspension of Donald Trump's travel ban.
> 
> *Another blow to his credibility*.



The problem is that it's very easy to make a pro-Trump narrative along the lines of Trump took action and the Establishment / political elites are blocking it like they normally do.

I'm not saying I agree with this,  but I'm assuming that's pretty much how it works in the minds of the people who voted for him.

Commonly accepted or agreed upon Laws/ethics/morals and processes that uphold these things are useful until they are not.


----------



## SirRumpole

Ves said:


> The problem is that it's very easy to make a pro-Trump narrative along the lines of Trump took action and the Establishment / political elites are blocking it like they normally do.




Yes you are right, but fortunately in the US and other democracies judges don't have to worry about electoral popularity and can just do their job impartially.

Separation of powers and all that.


----------



## Ves

SirRumpole said:


> Yes you are right, but fortunately in the US and other democracies judges don't have to worry about electoral popularity and can just do their job impartially.
> 
> Separation of powers and all that.



I agree,  but again,  _they do until they do not._

In other words,  laws or social customs only exist in their current state until enough people say they do not or the underlying _accepted reality_ is changed by some other cause.

I am not saying we are at this stage yet,  and I am not saying it will happen,  but that's always the danger (or dream if you love fascism).

On a long enough time line,  late capitalism and fascism are probably inevitable.


----------



## Ves

Any way,  I guess it's done the trick and no one cares about the mystery surrounding the sale of the Rosneft stake any more.


----------



## SirRumpole

Ves said:


> In other words,  laws or social customs only exist in their current state until enough people say they do not or the underlying _accepted reality_ is changed by some other cause.




True, but I wonder if the Trump phenomena will last given that a lot of the media hate him and the Congressional Republicans resent the way he hijacked their party.

I think he has a limited scope for mistakes before the Republicans impeach him for conflict of interest and put a more conventional Republican back in charge.

Plus I think more voters are realising that he's not the real deal he said he was. He's going to have a hard time keeping up the veneer of a capitalist revolutionary.


----------



## notting

At some point people will get sick of the 'fame fair ride.'  Trump is entertaining the herd for the moment but  people get board and will want to change the channel.  Then his tweets will be despised and everyone will be wanting to bring him down like they do even with the best of celebs. 
With Trump it will be particularly brutal!


----------



## Ves

SirRumpole said:


> True, but I wonder if the Trump phenomena will last given that a lot of the media hate him and the Congressional Republicans resent the way he hijacked their party.
> 
> I think he has a limited scope for mistakes before the Republicans impeach him for conflict of interest and put a more conventional Republican back in charge.
> 
> Plus I think more voters are realising that he's not the real deal he said he was. He's going to have a hard time keeping up the veneer of a capitalist revolutionary.






notting said:


> At some point people will get sick of the 'fame fair ride.'  Trump is entertaining the herd for the moment but  people get board and will want to change the channel.  Then his tweets will be despised and everyone will be wanting to bring him down like they do even with the best of celebs.
> With Trump it will be particularly brutal!



This is possible,  but strictly speaking,  it is also not about Trump.   If Trump did not exist America would have created him.  If Trump goes,  then I assume,  unless something in the underlying collective thinking of the American public changes,  then he will just be replaced by something else.

Trump going does not change the anxieties that those who voted for him have for the 'Establishment.'


----------



## Wysiwyg

notting said:


> Trump is entertaining the herd for the moment but  people get board and will want to change the channel.



I find it interesting the confidence trick of getting all business CEO's together. He is a business man and obvious expert at getting people to loosen their purse strings.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> Trump going does not change the anxieties that those who voted for him have for the 'Establishment.'




I wonder how many people voted for Trump as opposed to voted against Hilary. I have a few friends who are lifelong GOP voters and they've all said they would have voted for Biden and pretty much despise Trump, but they would never have voted for Hilary. In the end, 25% of eligible voters voted for Trump and 75% did not. It would probably do Trump well to remember that he has to govern for everyone, not just the minority who voted for him.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> I wonder how many people voted for Trump as opposed to voted against Hilary. I have a few friends who are lifelong GOP voters and they've all said they would have voted for Biden and pretty much despise Trump, but they would never have voted for Hilary. In the end, 25% of eligible voters voted for Trump and 75% did not. It would probably do Trump well to remember that he has to govern for everyone, not just the minority who voted for him.



I agree with this.

Some people definitely would not have voted for Trump because of Trump,  but because they saw him as a conduit for something else,  whether this was an expression of their disfranchisement with the system,  or as a protest or response to their dislike of Hilary.

I think you point about eligible voters is also good.   It's possible I'm wrong,  but where voting is not voluntary,  it's much harder to get voters enthusiastic about maintaining the status quo  (someone else will do it because it's been like this for a long time) versus getting people to vote for a cause to change the status quo.

Hilary didn't really say much that would get people up off the couch,  but Trump for better or worse,  created an energy against something,  that got people out of the house to vent their frustrations.

I guess in a few years,  Trump will be the incumbent, and there will be more people who see him as an object to rally against.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> True, but I wonder if the Trump phenomena will last given that a lot of the media hate him and the Congressional Republicans resent the way he hijacked their party.
> 
> I think he has a limited scope for mistakes before the Republicans impeach him for conflict of interest and put a more conventional Republican back in charge.
> 
> Plus I think more voters are realising that he's not the real deal he said he was. He's going to have a hard time keeping up the veneer of a capitalist revolutionary.




Rumpy, you are starting to sound like a cracked record......Impeach..Impeach...Impeach.


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> I wonder how many people voted for Trump as opposed to voted against Hilary. I have a few friends who are lifelong GOP voters and they've all said they would have voted for Biden and pretty much despise Trump, but they would never have voted for Hilary. In the end, 25% of eligible voters voted for Trump and 75% did not. It would probably do Trump well to remember that he has to govern for everyone, not just the minority who voted for him.




Saw an interview with Mark Blyth [Scottish/American economist] saying that the last time a US gov't did the most of what the majority of Americans wanted was Johnson and his Great Society, civil rights era.

He further confirmed that politicians and capitalists starts to play nice with the population, i.e. reign in the bankers, control monopolies and stop the squeezing of labour as the main way to extract profit... that was only from the 1940s to 1970s - one generation. 

With free education, more unions, proper banking regulation controlling financial crashes.. that and war booties... the great American middle class was built. 

Then democracy got out of hand and so from Carter to Reagan all on down, class warfare was waged against the American public. Where a recent study shows that public policies doesn't give a dam what 80% of the people wanted. 

The plebs know it, they're living it... and so voted for anyone but the establishment. Unfortunately, Trump was the most likely outsider who speak to their pain.

He won and fill his Cabinet up with billionaires and multi-hundred millionaires and military brasses. 

So they're now racing on the same trajectory as they have been, only a whole lot faster.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Rumpy, you are starting to sound like a cracked record......Impeach..Impeach...Impeach.




$5 Trump will be impeached or forced to resign within his first term.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> $5 Trump will be impeached or forced to resign within his first term.




I am not a gambler...A gambler never gets rich....They generally lose the lot in the end.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I am not a gambler...A gambler never gets rich....They generally lose the lot in the end.




I'm not gambling making this bet 

Read headline that Trump calls China's Xi and agreed to its "One China" policy. So maybe there's no nuclear war, just economic and proxy ones. 

Not sure if Australia is its own little empire or one of the proxies in that coming war.


----------



## SuperGlue

US will come to a grinding halt soon as illegal immigrants get deported and the rest just hide from authorities.

Farming and services industries will suffer and suddenly everything will be more costly.
Housemaids will just disappear and parents will have to take time off work to care for their kids.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tr...ns-immigration-raids-across-the-us-2017-02-10

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.99c69d67ea0e


----------



## Tisme

SuperGlue said:


> US will come to a grinding halt soon as illegal immigrants get deported and the rest just hide from authorities.




and legalising hooch in all states should see a hit to productivity too


----------



## Tisme




----------



## basilio

So Donald Trump has held a 77 min Press Conference.  What did  the President of the most powerful country on earth have to say ? 

It was in English.  There were words and sentences.  Not much grammar, largely fact free, plenty of completely obvious "alternative facts" which only prove how  stupid/delusional/dangerous the current POTUS is. This is totally crackers.


Trump is the boss we all know so well, and never want to see again. The one winging it at every turn, in every sentence. The one who just read something, or talked to somebody, and is now an Olympic-sized expert.

“I have been briefed,” he declared, as he explained what passes for his poodle-like policy towards Vladimir Putin.

“And I can tell you one thing about a briefing that we’re allowed to say, because anybody that ever read the most basic book can say it: Nuclear holocaust would be like no other. They’re a very powerful nuclear country and so are we. If we have a good relationship with Russia, believe me, that’s a good thing, not a bad thing.”

Current Time 0:00
/
Duration Time 3:16
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%

Coming from the mouth of Ricky Gervais or Steve Carell, this might be rather funny. But as we know from the guests at Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump travels with military aides who carry real nuclear codes.

It’s great that he’s reading the most basic books about that nuclear holocaust. Who knew it could be so awful to obliterate the planet?

He’s also been reading about uranium, which is cool. It’s best if he explains this one in his own words: “You know what uranium is, right? This thing called nuclear weapons, like lots of things are done with uranium, including some bad things.”

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mp-press-conference-media-criticism-not-funny

Probably the most stinging comments came from Fox News anchor Shepard Smith

*Fox News' Shep Smith Blasts Trump For Lashing Out At Reporters*
*"You owe this to the American people" to answer questions, he said.*
17/02/2017 9:41 AM AEDT | *Updated* 2 hours ago
5.0 K

  Marina Fang  Associate Politics Editor, The Huffington Post


After President Donald Trump spent much of his Thursday press conference lecturing and demeaning reporters, Fox News anchor Shepard Smith defended the role of the media, reminding Trump that “you owe this to the American people” to answer reporters’ questions.

“It’s crazy what we’re watching every day. It’s absolutely crazy,” Smith said, summing up the Thursday face-off. “He keeps repeating ridiculous, throwaway lines that are not true at all and sort of avoiding this issue of Russia as if we’re some kind of fools for asking the question. Really?!”

Smith implored the president to actually answer questions from reporters rather than openly undermine the media.

“Your opposition was hacked and the Russians were responsible for it, and your people were on the phone with Russia on the same day it’s happening, and we’re fools for asking the questions? No, sir, we’re not fools for asking the questions, and we demand to know the answer to this question. You owe this to the American people,” Smith said.

He acknowledged that Trump’s supporters, who joined in the candidate’s taunting of the media during campaign rallies, “will support you either way.”

But “we have a right to know. You call us fake news and put us down like children for asking these questions on behalf of the American people,” Smith said. “The people deserve that answer, at very least,” he added.

Trump opened Thursday’s press conference by delivering a long diatribe against the “out of control” press. He repeatedly dismissed mounting reports that members of his campaign team communicated with Russia as “fake news.”

“The press has become so dishonest that if we don’t talk about it, we are doing a tremendous disservice to the American people, a tremendous disservice,” Trump said. “We have to talk about it. We have to find out what’s going on because the press, honestly, is out of control. The level of dishonesty is out of control.”

Trump later cut off NBC News reporter Peter Alexander, when Alexander tried to fact-check the president on his wildly false claim that he won the Electoral College by the largest margin of victory since that of President Ronald Reagan.

“I was given that information,” Trump said. “I don’t know. I was just given it. We had a very, very big margin.”

Alexander asked whether Americans should trust the president “when you accuse the information they receive of being fake, when you provide information that’s not accurate.” Trump would not say.

F


----------



## wayneL

Notwithstanding Trump's foibles, I am stoked he is calling the MSM out bas.

Can't wait for you butthurt lefties to settle down,  so we can see what we really have in Trump, after the crushing disappointment of the last clown


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Notwithstanding Trump's foibles, I am stoked he is calling the MSM out bas.
> 
> Can't wait for you butthurt lefties to settle down,  so we can see what we really have in Trump, after the crushing disappointment of the last clown




And what  are you missing at the moment Wayne?  What part of this vainglorious, xxxwitted, delusional blowhard  is hiding itself from us or you ? 

The Emporer is butt naked and very ugly..


----------



## orr

'Extermitate all rational thought'
These are the words of Bill Lee in William Borroughs work 'Naked Lunch', what follows is this;

Bill Lee:_ Did I ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk? His whole abdomen would move up and down you dig farting out the words. It was unlike anything I had ever heard. This asshole talk had sort of a gut frequency. It hit you right down there like you gotta go. You know when the old colon gives you the elbow and it feels sorta cold inside, and you know all you have to do is turn loose? Well this talking hit you right down there, a bubbly, thick stagnant sound, a sound you could smell. This man worked for a carnival you dig, and to start with it was like a novelty ventriliquist act. Real funny, too, at first. He had a number he called The Better Ole that was a scream, I tell you. I forget most of it but it was clever. Like, "Oh I say, are you still down there, old thing?" "Nah I had to go relieve myself." After a while the asshole started talking on its own. He would go in without anything prepared and his asshole would ad-lib and toss the gags back at him every time. Then it developed sort of teeth-like little raspy in-curving hooks and start eating. He thought this was cute at first and built an act around it, but the asshole would eat its way through his pants and start talking on the street, shouting out it wanted equal rights. It would get drunk, too, and have crying jags nobody loved it and it wanted to be kissed same as any other mouth. Finally it talked all the time day and night, you could hear him for blocks screaming at it to shut up, and beating it with his fist, and sticking candles up it, but nothing did any good and the asshole said to him, "It is you who will shut up in the end. Not me. Because we dont need you around here any more. I can talk and eat AND ****." After that he began waking up in the morning with a transparent jelly like a tadpoles tail all over his mouth. This jelly was what the scientists call un-D.T., Undifferentiated Tissue, which can grow into any kind of flesh on the human body. He would tear it off his mouth and the pieces would stick to his hands like burning gasoline jelly and grow there, grow anywhere on him a glob of it fell. So finally his mouth sealed over, and the whole head would have have amputated spontaneous - except for the EYES you dig. Thats one thing the asshole COULDN'T do was see. It needed the eyes. But nerve connections were blocked and infiltrated and atrophied so the brain couldnt give orders any more. It was trapped in the skull, sealed off. For a while you could see the silent, helpless suffering of the brain behind the eyes, then finally the brain must have died, because the eyes WENT OUT, and there was no more feeling in them than a crabs eyes on the end of a stalk._

Trump has eaten his way though the US of Americas pants....
I highly recommend the Film as well.


----------



## So_Cynical

Trump Full Press Conference (2/16/17) | ABC (US) News - The best 1 hour and 17 minutes of reality TV ever...he really is crazy, he has a similar appeal to George W and Reagan except much much crazier.
~


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> And what  are you missing at the moment Wayne?  What part of this vainglorious, xxxwitted, delusionam too l blowhard  is hiding itself from us or you ?
> 
> The Emporer is butt naked and very ugly..



I'm on record as saying this is the US' Berlusconi moment. But I think he can repair some of the damage from the Obama experiment failure. 

The stock market doesn't seem too worried about him and I remain hopeful this acts as catalyst for true change from the leftist poison


----------



## basilio

"I remain hopeful this acts as catalyst for true change from the leftist poison" Wayne L

There are plenty of  astute and determined meglomaniacs who promised true change. Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin. What price do we want to pay ? And exactly what are we trying to destroy ?


----------



## Tisme

Bearing in mind that attitudes and behaviours were quite different  in the past:

President Andrew Jackson used to actively pistol duel to get rid of his opponents, hit people with his cane and disregard his constitutional hand cuffs. People tried to kill him.

Teddy Roosevelt kept a bear and lion as pets in the White House, John Adams kept and alligator as a pet. He was a martial arts expert, a boxer and carried  gun on his hip wherever he went.

JFK went looking for trouble in both WW2 and obsessive philandering,

History will tell us what Clinton actually got upto with women and how smoke damaged GW Bush was.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> "I remain hopeful this acts as catalyst for true change from the leftist poison" Wayne L
> 
> There are plenty of  astute and determined meglomaniacs who promised true change. Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin. What price do we want to pay ? And exactly what are we trying to destroy ?



All socialist/national socialism /communist if you notice.

Thank you


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> All socialist/national socialism /communist if you notice.
> 
> Thank you




Genghis Khan ?  Idi Amin ?  Clearly socialist arn't they ? Still trolling your alternative reality Wayne .  How about General Pinochet, The Greek Colonels, Mussolini ?

There are many different versions of astute and determined megalomaniacs.  Donald Trump is probably William Hearst on speed.  But he happens to be the President of the most powerful country on earth and controls a military capacity that can start a war that will destroy all life on earth in minutes.

And he won't listen to anything except the voices in his head.


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Genghis Khan ?  Idi Amin ?  Clearly socialist arn't they ? Still trolling your alternative reality Wayne .  How about General Pinochet, The Greek Colonels, Mussolini ?
> 
> There are many different versions of astute and determined megalomaniacs.  Donald Trump is probably William Hearst on speed.  But he happens to be the President of the most powerful country on earth and controls a military capacity that can start a war that will destroy all life on earth in minutes.
> 
> And he won't listen to anything except the voices in his head.




Bas, he listened to the people of the USA and that is what got him over the line....Pauline Hanson is doing the same and just look how her popularity has risen.

The leaders we have in Turnbull, Shorten and di-Natalie are just ignoring the Australian people as to what they really want......It is all about who can score more political points between our leaders.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Genghis Khan ?  Idi Amin ?  Clearly socialist arn't they ? Still trolling your alternative reality Wayne .  How about General Pinochet, The Greek Colonels, Mussolini ?
> 
> There are many different versions of astute and determined megalomaniacs.  Donald Trump is probably William Hearst on speed.  But he happens to be the President of the most powerful country on earth and controls a military capacity that can start a war that will destroy all life on earth in minutes.
> 
> And he won't listen to anything except the voices in his head.



Khan was before both our time, But, both my father and father in law were acquainted with Amin in the British army.

Though not a pure ideological Marxist, he was most assuredly of that persuasion, as is evidenced by the support of him from the USSR,  East Germany and membership of OAU.

But we can always add Islamism to rhe list, That should cover all except Kahn


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Genghis Khan ?  Idi Amin ?  Clearly socialist arn't they ? Still trolling your alternative reality Wayne .  How about General Pinochet, The Greek Colonels, Mussolini ?
> 
> There are many different versions of astute and determined megalomaniacs.  Donald Trump is probably William Hearst on speed.  But he happens to be the President of the most powerful country on earth and controls a military capacity that can start a war that will destroy all life on earth in minutes.
> 
> And he won't listen to anything except the voices in his head.



I might add,  you butthurt, anti-democratic, perpetually offended, laughably hypocritical, hyperventilating leftists have not learnt that the more you crap on like you do, the more you push the center to the right.  

Have you not noticed middle of the road, reasonable folks, have Brexited, Paulined And Trumped straight in your faces?

And as you continue your collective petulant tantruming, the above is collecting momentum exponentially.


----------



## DB008




----------



## basilio

*Sweden has been attacked by ISIS  !!  Real News from the Real Truth Teller !!! But wait...!! The cavalry are coming  on their White Chargers  !!!!!*

*Sweden, who would believe this?': Trump cites terror attack *
At Florida rally president refers to attack in Sweden 

Current Time 0:00
/

Mute
Trump linked migration in Europe to terror attacks in Brussels, Nice, Paris – and Sweden. Photograph: UPI/Barcroft Images


Sunday 19 February 2017 23.31 AEDT   Last modified on Sunday 19 February 2017 23.48 AEDT

Donald Trump appeared to invent a terrorist attack in Sweden during a campaign-style rally in Florida on Saturday, inviting questions that he may have confused the nation with a city in Pakistan.

With thousands of Trump supporters gathered in an aircraft hanger in Melbourne, Florida, Trump used his speech to talk about migration in Europe and linked it to terror attacks in Brussels, Nice and Paris. He then added Sweden to the list, incorrectly stating that an attack had happened there on Friday.

Trump told supporters: “We’ve got to keep our country safe. You look at what’s happening in Germany, you look at what’s happening last night in Sweden.”

“Sweden, who would believe this? Sweden. They took in large numbers. They’re having problems like they never thought possible. You look at what’s happening in Brussels. You look at what’s happening all over the world. Take a look at Nice. Take a look at Paris.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/19/sweden-trump-cites-non-existent-terror-attack


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Khan was before both our time, But, both my father and father in law were acquainted with Amin in the British army.
> 
> Though not a pure ideological Marxist, he was most assuredly of that persuasion, as is evidenced by the support of him from the USSR,  East Germany and membership of OAU.
> 
> But we can always add Islamism to rhe list, That should cover all except Kahn




Oh, all the years Amin was around the Poms has no influence? 

Know how Obama screwed "the left", i.e. the people - both left and right... Wait til you see Trump screwing "the right". He's already doing it, just somehow people still refuse to see it. Watch for the results I guess.


----------



## basilio

* John McCain on Trump: suppressing free press is 'how dictators get started' *
Despite ‘hating the press’, Republican senator says media is necessary after president calls media ‘the enemy of the American people’




Senator John McCain: ‘I hate the press. But the fact is we need you.’ Photograph: Matthias Schrader/AP

Monday 20 February 2017 01.31 AEDT   Last modified on Monday 20 February 2017 04.38 AEDT

Senator John McCain has warned that suppression of a free press is “how dictators get started”, criticizing Donald Trump’s continued declarations that newspapers and news networks are “the enemy of the American people”.

“I hate the press,” McCain told NBC’s Meet the Press in an interview, taped at a security conference with European leaders in Munich.. “But the fact is we need you. We need a free press. We must have it.”






“I’m very serious now, if you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press,” he continued. “Without it, I am afraid that we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time. That’s how dictators get started.”

The Republican party’s presidential nominee in 2008, McCain has repeatedly criticized Trump’s ideas as a candidate and now as president. The interview, broadcast Sunday, was taped not long after the president tweeted on Friday night that he considered the media “the enemy of the American people”. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ssing-free-press-is-how-dictators-get-started


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> I might add,  you butthurt, anti-democratic, perpetually offended, laughably hypocritical, hyperventilating leftists have not learnt that the more you crap on like you do, the more you push the center to the right.
> 
> Have you not noticed middle of the road, reasonable folks, have Brexited, Paulined And Trumped straight in your faces?
> 
> And as you continue your collective petulant tantruming, the above is collecting momentum exponentially.




What positive outcomes have been achieved by these Brexiting, Paulining, Trumpards?  The only evidence you have presented thus far is the DOW Jones at a new record high.  Although I fail to see what this has to do with Trump.  The DOW has hit record highs during most terms of presidency, as it did many times under Obama.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> * John McCain on Trump: suppressing free press is 'how dictators get started' *
> Despite ‘hating the press’, Republican senator says media is necessary after president calls media ‘the enemy of the American people’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Senator John McCain: ‘I hate the press. But the fact is we need you.’ Photograph: Matthias Schrader/AP
> 
> Monday 20 February 2017 01.31 AEDT   Last modified on Monday 20 February 2017 04.38 AEDT
> 
> Senator John McCain has warned that suppression of a free press is “how dictators get started”, criticizing Donald Trump’s continued declarations that newspapers and news networks are “the enemy of the American people”.
> 
> “I hate the press,” McCain told NBC’s Meet the Press in an interview, taped at a security conference with European leaders in Munich.. “But the fact is we need you. We need a free press. We must have it.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “I’m very serious now, if you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press,” he continued. “Without it, I am afraid that we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time. That’s how dictators get started.”
> 
> The Republican party’s presidential nominee in 2008, McCain has repeatedly criticized Trump’s ideas as a candidate and now as president. The interview, broadcast Sunday, was taped not long after the president tweeted on Friday night that he considered the media “the enemy of the American people”.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ssing-free-press-is-how-dictators-get-started



What McCain is missing is that free speech had been suppressed for quite some time via ludicrous political correctness.  

I would never like to see a legislated silencing of the media, so agree with John on that point. 

But I also agree with Trump that the media is no friend of the people and should be called out when appropriate


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> What positive outcomes have been achieved by these Brexiting, Paulining, Trumpards?  The only evidence you have presented thus far is the DOW Jones at a new record high.  Although I fail to see what this has to do with Trump.  The DOW has hit record highs during most terms of presidency, as it did many times under Obama.



Brexit hasn't actually happened yet, Trump has only just started (and my opinion on that is above) and Pauline has done some good recently in Nth Qld 

It's just getting started junior, lots of water to go under the bridge before we see if the plebeian rejection of establishment politics is of benefit. 

There will be pain, but I see mostly positives so far.


----------



## Logique

It's sinister, the concerted attack by the left leaning organs of the press, around the world. 

They are seriously pissed, they thought they'd groomed Middle America, which saw straight through them, and their golden girl candidate. 

Trump is quite right to call them on it.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> What McCain is missing is that free speech had been suppressed for quite some time via ludicrous political correctness.




Real information has also been supressed by Right Wing propaganda machines in the Murdoch organisation.


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> It's sinister, the concerted attack by the left leaning organs of the press, around the world.




You mean like Murdoch ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Real information has also been supressed by Right Wing propaganda machines in the Murdoch organisation.



It should be called out no matter what side they're on mate.  That tabloid crap is equally irritating,  though I wouldn't call newscorp right wing... reeds in the wind


----------



## noco

wayneL said:


> It should be called out no matter what side they're on mate.  That tabloid crap is equally irritating,  though I wouldn't call newscorp right wing... reeds in the wind




I have been saying it for years and I will repeat it again.

The first task of socialism is to control the media and that is all a part of the Fabian ideology....Control the media and you control people's minds with lies and propaganda.

The loading of 41%  Green and 31% Labor journos in the ABC by that self confessed communist Julia Gillard is a typical example here in Australia and is no doubt going on in the USA originated by Obama.

One would have to be very naive not to have noticed over the years the bias shown towards the Green/Labor socialist coalition....The ABC.....Insiders.....Q&A.....7.30 report....late line ......They all lean heavily to the left.......Turnbull has been so weak with the ABC as he  fears the repercussions from the ABC........GETUP is another off shoot of Labor who often stretch the truth.....And not too many know Fabian Bill Shorten is a foundation member and past board member of GETUP.

Donald Trump is awake to the leftist media in the USA and wants to pull them into line but then the lefties put  their propaganda machine into action and say it is the start of a dictatorship.

This is socialism working at what it  knows best.


----------



## Junior

I like the ABC.  They promote tolerance and equality, and denounce racism.  Apparently this means I am a 'lefty' according to many in this thread....I've never considered myself to be a lefty before, probably in the centre if I had to use that type of label.

It seems that anyone who dislikes Trump and/or Hanson etc, or does not subscribe to their beliefs and policies is labelled as a 'lefty'.  This label seems to be attributed to those who have any kind of empathy for refugees, or would prefer to look after the environment rather than destroy it, for example.  I don't understand how these attributes are now seen as negatives by those who call themselves 'right-wing'.  Are these not simply beliefs of someone who values kindness and likes to help other people in need, or thinks that maybe we should not pollute ourselves into extinction?

There's this perception that 'leftys' are mad because Trump won.  People are upset Trump won because he is a very nasty individual.  He is a racist.  He promotes and encourages fear.  He is proud of his lies.  He is narcissistic.  He has no political or military experience.  These are very dangerous characteristics for the leader of the free world.  It's nothing to do with left, right, centre or whatever labels you want to ascribe to people.  This man could ruin and destroy millions of lives.....people are worried.

What is a lefty?  Noco and WayneL I'd like to hear your definition of the attributes and features of a lefty in 2017.  Am I complete wrong in my understanding of this label?

Please avoid wide-ranging and vague labels such as Fabians, Socialists etc.  Be more specific.


----------



## luutzu

Junior said:


> I like the ABC.  They promote tolerance and equality, and denounce racism.  Apparently this means I am a 'lefty' according to many in this thread....I've never considered myself to be a lefty before, probably in the centre if I had to use that type of label.
> 
> It seems that anyone who dislikes Trump and/or Hanson etc, or does not subscribe to their beliefs and policies is labelled as a 'lefty'.  This label seems to be attributed to those who have any kind of empathy for refugees, or would prefer to look after the environment rather than destroy it, for example.  I don't understand how these attributes are now seen as negatives by those who call themselves 'right-wing'.  Are these not simply beliefs of someone who values kindness and likes to help other people in need, or thinks that maybe we should not pollute ourselves into extinction?
> 
> What is a lefty?  Noco and WayneL I'd like to hear your definition of the attributes and features of a lefty in 2017.  Am I complete wrong in my understanding of this label?
> 
> Please avoid wide-ranging and vague labels such as Fabians, Socialists etc.  Be more specific.





Saw highlights of Jackie Lambie on Q&A... wow!

Apparently Climate Change is real, now. But we can't do anything about it. So we'll just have to adapt to it.

So get rich, start growing gills, or die because it's your fault for not evolving and adapting fast enough.

And oh, get those kids from gov't housing out of there! Get them out of there! 

How Jackie? Just kick them out, show tough love and ways of the world? That'll teach them to grow up and stuff?

A bit unreal.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Real information has also been supressed by Right Wing propaganda machines in the Murdoch organisation.




Murdoch reporters have been very vocal in defending the left leaning media outlets. They are the ones shouting down trump when he attacks left media. Despite the left remaining very quiet when obama attacked free speech of the media when he was first elected and bagging the right.

Murdoch has also been critical of the trump administration in news.com etc. I have not seen many (if any) positive articles on trump.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Murdoch reporters have been very vocal in defending the left leaning media outlets. They are the ones shouting down trump when he attacks left media. Despite the left remaining very quiet when obama attacked free speech of the media when he was first elected and bagging the right.
> 
> Murdoch has also been critical of the trump administration in news.com etc. I have not seen many (if any) positive articles on trump.




I see Trump is an avid watcher of Fox news and got himself in a pickle because of it: quoting fictional AndrewBoltesque facts about an incident that never happened in Sweden at all.


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> I like the ABC.  They promote tolerance and equality, and denounce racism.  Apparently this means I am a 'lefty' according to many in this thread....I've never considered myself to be a lefty before, probably in the centre if I had to use that type of label.
> 
> It seems that anyone who dislikes Trump and/or Hanson etc, or does not subscribe to their beliefs and policies is labelled as a 'lefty'.  This label seems to be attributed to those who have any kind of empathy for refugees, or would prefer to look after the environment rather than destroy it, for example.  I don't understand how these attributes are now seen as negatives by those who call themselves 'right-wing'.  Are these not simply beliefs of someone who values kindness and likes to help other people in need, or thinks that maybe we should not pollute ourselves into extinction?
> 
> There's this perception that 'leftys' are mad because Trump won.  People are upset Trump won because he is a very nasty individual.  He is a racist.  He promotes and encourages fear.  He is proud of his lies.  He is narcissistic.  He has no political or military experience.  These are very dangerous characteristics for the leader of the free world.  It's nothing to do with left, right, centre or whatever labels you want to ascribe to people.  This man could ruin and destroy millions of lives.....people are worried.
> 
> What is a lefty?  Noco and WayneL I'd like to hear your definition of the attributes and features of a lefty in 2017.  Am I complete wrong in my understanding of this label?
> 
> Please avoid wide-ranging and vague labels such as Fabians, Socialists etc.  Be more specific.




Junior, you ask me to define a "LEFTY" but  you put masking tape over my mouth and you tie both of my hands behind my back so now I can't speak or fight back...LOL.

 The terms you ask for in that definition restricts me from making a true assessment of a lefty.

Free speech is a wonderful thing until your opponent tries to gag you and that is a well known trait of a lefty.

It seems the branding of Lefties as Fabians and Socialist somehow sticks in their claw as being allied with communism.....If the Green/Labor coalition were to change their name to the Communist Party, I am sure their popularity would go on a downward slide.

So I would find it very difficult to define a LEFTY under your terms and conditions.

I am quite willing to do so if you were to reconsider and lift your terms of reference.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Junior, you ask me to define a "LEFTY" but  you put masking tape over my mouth and you tie both of my hands behind my back so now I can't speak or fight back...LOL.
> 
> The terms you ask for in that definition restricts me from making a true assessment of a lefty.
> 
> Free speech is a wonderful thing until your opponent tries to gag you and that is a well known trait of a lefty.
> 
> It seems the branding of Lefties as Fabians and Socialist somehow sticks in their claw as being allied with communism.....If the Green/Labor coalition were to change their name to the Communist Party, I am sure their popularity would go on a downward slide.
> 
> So I would find it very difficult to define a LEFTY under your terms and conditions.
> 
> I am quite willing to do so if you were to reconsider and lift your terms of reference.





I'll help you out noco.

A lefty is a polite person who also gives a dam about anybody else beside just themselves.

They're the do-gooders who somehow reckon that people's tax dollars ought to be spent on the people instead of it being taken, hand over to rich people and their corporations, then we all blame Muslims and immigrants.

A lefty is someone who reckons imperialism is bad and we ought to leave people alone... that instead of thinking that if them Muslims behave, one day far away, we will find it in our Christian heart to forgive the Muslims for their barbaric religion forcing us to fly over to their countries, wreck the place and not at all take the oil.

A lefty is someone who's horrified at seeing an orange dictatorial loon breaking laws, moral codes, the constitution and civil rights in banning Muslims. That instead of seeing the deep down, the Yellow Emperor is really nice to good, deserving people. That he's only mean to those who deserves it.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Junior, you ask me to define a "LEFTY" but  you put masking tape over my mouth and you tie both of my hands behind my back so now I can't speak or fight back...LOL.
> 
> The terms you ask for in that definition restricts me from making a true assessment of a lefty.
> 
> Free speech is a wonderful thing until your opponent tries to gag you and that is a well known trait of a lefty.
> 
> It seems the branding of Lefties as Fabians and Socialist somehow sticks in their claw as being allied with communism.....If the Green/Labor coalition were to change their name to the Communist Party, I am sure their popularity would go on a downward slide.
> 
> So I would find it very difficult to define a LEFTY under your terms and conditions.
> 
> I am quite willing to do so if you were to reconsider and lift your terms of reference.




I am a strong believer in free speech Noco.  I've been on this forum for 10 years and have never clicked the report button.  So please don't tell me I'm putting masking tape over your mouth.  You can say whatever you want.

I'm just baffled by this concept that you are either on Trump's side or you are a LEFTY.  I don't understand.  That seems very restrictive.  As I've alluded to previously the guy reminds me of that tourist advertisement for the Northern Territory (c u in the....), and I think he will halt and reverse the progress of the human race.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Junior said:


> and I think he will halt and reverse the progress of the human race.




No fear he is so incompetent he cannot even put together a team to carry out his 'plans' which outside of campaign talking points he hasn't got.

It will be 4 years before he even gets a cabinet room full.


> *Reality collides with Trump's promises*
> 
> Trump has appointed just three of the 15 required deputy secretary Cabinet positions; fewer than 40 of the 700 key administration jobs requiring Senate confirmation have been filled.





> “There's no precedent in the modern history of the presidency for what we've seen over the last month,” said Republican operative Steve Schmidt. “If you combine the dishonesty, the sloppiness and incompetence, the result is deep concern and anxiety across allied capitals, glee in the capitals of foreign enemies, and an American public that regard him one month in with the lowest levels of support in the modern era. We’ve just never seen an American administration collapse from a credibility perspective as quickly as this one has.


----------



## PZ99

I don't think he'll even be there in four years. Not with the incompetence at this level.


----------



## Logique

I hope Fairfax, the ABC (TV and Radio), the SBS, and yes even the Murdoch press,
take the time to revisit and consider. My bolds.  I think there'd be a diversity of opinion on the representation of the Trump Presidency by the above mentioned.


> http://www.presscouncil.org.au/charter-of-press-freedom/
> *A Charter for a Free Press in Australia*
> The Australian Press Council agreed on the following Charter in 2003 and encouraged other organisations to adopt it.
> 
> Preamble
> *Freedom of opinion and expression is an inalienable right of a free people*. Australia is committed to The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 19 of the Declaration provides: "Everyone has the right of freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers".
> 
> In a truly democratic society open debate, discussion, criticism and dissent are central to the process of generating informed and considered choices. These processes are crucial to the formation of values and priorities and help in assessing and finding solutions to social, economic and political problems.
> 
> *A free press is a symbol of a free people*. The people of Australia have a right to freedom of information and *access to differing opinions* and declare that the following principles are basic to an unfettered flow of news and views both within Australia and across the nation's borders.
> 
> The Principles
> Freedom of the press means the right of the people to be informed by the press on matters of public interest so that they may exercise their rights and duties as citizens.
> 
> The press shall not be subject to government licence and government authorities should not interfere with the content of news nor restrict access to any news source.
> 
> The press has a responsibility to the public to commit itself to self-regulation which provides a mechanism for dealing with the concerns of members of the public and the maintenance of the ethical standards and journalistic professionalism of the press.
> 
> It is in the public interest for the press to *make available to the people a wide diversity of views and opinions*.
> 
> It is the responsibility of the press to protect the people's right to know and to contest encroachments upon that right by governments, groups or individuals.
> 
> Laws, regulations and practices which in any way restrict or inhibit the right of the press freely to gather and distribute news, views and information are unacceptable unless it can be shown that the public interest is better served by such laws, regulations or practices than the public interest in the people's right to know.


----------



## Tisme

If it wasn't for lefties we'd still be down the mines at 10 years old and no say in how the nation is run.

Yin and yang


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> If it wasn't for lefties we'd still be down the mines at 10 years old and no say in how the nation is run.
> 
> Yin and yang




We also wouldn't have the NBN and NDIS which the LNP are now taking credit for but were never mentioned in the 11 years of the political wilderness called John Howard.


----------



## Smurf1976

noco said:


> JIf the Green/Labor coalition were to change their name to the Communist Party, I am sure their popularity would go on a downward slide.




No doubt it would but then the same would apply if the Coalition changed their name to the Big Business Party, that too would be pretty unpopular.

Actually, they've already tried a rebranding. Where on earth did this "LNP" term come from? It was always "Liberal" or "the Coalition" until not long ago I started seeing this "LNP" term everywhere. Had to stop and think what it meant at first, that it's just the Coalition with a different name and isn't some new party. Presumably some marketing guru thought it would help win a few votes. 

None of the majors are doing much good for ordinary Australians in my view.

As for Trump, well I see that Trump jokes are pretty safe territory for comedians these days. Seems a pretty safe way to get a good reaction from the audience by saying something bad about him. If he'd been President for 2 years then maybe that's to be expected, public figures have long been a target of comedy, but I sure don't recall any political leader, of any persuasion, being in that situation just after they've first been elected. Normally takes a while for that sort of thing to happen but not this time.

I'd have more time for Trump if he'd ditch the narcissism and all that comes with it. Been there, seen that crap in another situation and it scares me to have someone in such a powerful position behaving like that. That sort of thing ends badly enough if it's a personal relationship or the boss of a small business but the consequences of the actual President of the USA behaging that way are truly terrifying. It's not some tin pot country with a few palm trees and some nice beaches we're talking about here. The US is the biggest player both financially and militarily which is scary to say the least when you've got someone like Trump calling the shots.


----------



## luutzu

Trembling Hand said:


> No fear he is so incompetent he cannot even put together a team to carry out his 'plans' which outside of campaign talking points he hasn't got.
> 
> It will be 4 years before he even gets a cabinet room full.




Maybe a war or two with a moderately powerful country will change that disunity.


----------



## noco

This is how the lefties operate in the USA.......Watch the first video off the rank.

I have my helmet and flack jacket on in readiness for the leftie blast.


https://www.facebook.com/theboltreport/videos/


----------



## wayneL

Junior

I think there is a demarcation between social and economic values. 

It is possible to be left socially and right economically and visa versa, muddying the waters. 

I think a reasonable mixture of laissez-faire and regulation on both fronts is best.

The debate is - what is reasonable and for whom?


----------



## wayneL

wayneL said:


> Junior
> 
> I think there is a demarcation between social and economic values.
> 
> It is possible to be left socially and right economically and visa versa, muddying the waters.
> 
> I think a reasonable mixture of laissez-faire and regulation on both fronts is best.
> 
> The debate is - what is reasonable and for whom?



The corollary of which is - Whose values should we defend, theirs or ours?


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> I'll help you out noco.
> 
> A lefty is a polite person who also gives a dam about anybody else beside just themselves.
> 
> They're the do-gooders who somehow reckon that people's tax dollars ought to be spent on the people instead of it being taken, hand over to rich people and their corporations, then we all blame Muslims and immigrants.
> 
> A lefty is someone who reckons imperialism is bad and we ought to leave people alone... that instead of thinking that if them Muslims behave, one day far away, we will find it in our Christian heart to forgive the Muslims for their barbaric religion forcing us to fly over to their countries, wreck the place and not at all take the oil.
> 
> A lefty is someone who's horrified at seeing an orange dictatorial loon breaking laws, moral codes, the constitution and civil rights in banning Muslims. That instead of seeing the deep down, the Yellow Emperor is really nice to good, deserving people. That he's only mean to those who deserves it.




Bill Shorten is a leftie but did he give a dam about those poor workers at Chiquita ans Clean Event...He diddled them out of $400,000,000 in wages and penalty rates....He gave to the rich and took from the poor.

A CFMEU leftie union reps have  never been  polite people with their abuse, distortion and intimidation of workers and building contractors......They are ruthless and rude which nobody can deny,.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Bill Shorten is a leftie but did he give a dam about those poor workers at Chiquita ans Clean Event...He diddled them out of $400,000,000 in wages and penalty rates....He gave to the rich and took from the poor.
> 
> A CFMEU leftie union reps have  never been  polite people with their abuse, distortion and intimidation of workers and building contractors......They are ruthless and rude which nobody can deny,.




Raking over dead coals again.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Raking over dead coals again.


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> Junior
> 
> I think there is a demarcation between social and economic values.
> 
> It is possible to be left socially and right economically and visa versa, muddying the waters.
> 
> I think a reasonable mixture of laissez-faire and regulation on both fronts is best.
> 
> The debate is - what is reasonable and for whom?




This makes sense.

I just think it's dangerous for so many people to side up with Trump simply because they consider themselves right-wing, and think he is on their side.  Trump is on Trump's side.  He is not anti the 1%.  He IS the 1%, and he will gear his policies towards ensuring that his family and his business empire is the number 1 priority.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Raking over dead coals again.




I have to keep reminding you in case you forget.....It must really stick in the gizzet of you lefties.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Bill Shorten is a leftie but did he give a dam about those poor workers at Chiquita ans Clean Event...He diddled them out of $400,000,000 in wages and penalty rates....He gave to the rich and took from the poor.




He's not a lefty noco. That's what I've been trying to say.

Bob Hawke and Paul Keating made some deal where Alan Bond can buy Packer's Channel Nine but does not need to pay any tax on it. Something like that, heard it from an old John Pilger doco.

They also pass a special law just for Bondie's gold [?] mine to be exempt from certain taxes.

Hawke spoke to Murdoch, asking for Ruppee's permission to fire certain of the PM's deputy. They were quite chummy.

Murdoch was supporting Jimmy Carter, the "liberal" democratic president. It was Bill Clinton that permit Murdoch and his pals to own as many tv and media and news companies as they think is sensible.

So nobody gives a dam about the poor, not even the poor care about the poor to be honest.

I know we in the West don't believe in class warfare and stuff. That besides the Queen and other majesties, we're all equal and everybody's vote carry the same weight and all that. That's just for our entertainment, unfortunately.

Maybe it's best to stop listening to what they say and start watching the results of what they do.

It's not a coincident, or incompetence, or bad luck that each and every budget see the rich getting a whole lot more while the poor can decide whether they'll take this cut from grandma or that cut from the spoilt kids wanting an education.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> He's not a lefty noco. That's what I've been trying to say.
> 
> Bob Hawke and Paul Keating made some deal where Alan Bond can buy Packer's Channel Nine but does not need to pay any tax on it. Something like that, heard it from an old John Pilger doco.
> 
> They also pass a special law just for Bondie's gold [?] mine to be exempt from certain taxes.
> 
> Hawke spoke to Murdoch, asking for Ruppee's permission to fire certain of the PM's deputy. They were quite chummy.
> 
> Murdoch was supporting Jimmy Carter, the "liberal" democratic president. It was Bill Clinton that permit Murdoch and his pals to own as many tv and media and news companies as they think is sensible.
> 
> So nobody gives a dam about the poor, not even the poor care about the poor to be honest.
> 
> I know we in the West don't believe in class warfare and stuff. That besides the Queen and other majesties, we're all equal and everybody's vote carry the same weight and all that. That's just for our entertainment, unfortunately.
> 
> Maybe it's best to stop listening to what they say and start watching the results of what they do.
> 
> It's not a coincident, or incompetence, or bad luck that each and every budget see the rich getting a whole lot more while the poor can decide whether they'll take this cut from grandma or that cut from the spoilt kids wanting an education.




How can you be a Fabian and not a leftie.......Bill is on the list of Fabians along with most of the Labor Party and the Greens.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> How can you be a Fabian and not a leftie.......Bill is on the list of Fabians along with most of the Labor Party and the Greens.




The same way I sign up, pay for gym membership and never go there again.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> The same way I sign up, pay for gym membership and never go there again.




I fail to see any comparison....Please let me know when he resigns from the Fabian Society.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> He's not a lefty noco. That's what I've been trying to say.



You seem to be labouring under some misapprehension of the Fabian's modus operandi, Grasshopper.

Gradualism works by slowly boiling the frog, not ideological shock treatment. You have to look at the end game, not the mid-game headfakes.


----------



## noco

Why can't the lefties in the USA just lay down their arms and accept Trump is the President instead of the endless billy goat bickering......So Clinton lost...so what?......The USA is a democratic country like Australia....What in the hell will all the lefties achieve with demonstrations and riots?.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I fail to see any comparison....Please let me know when he resigns from the Fabian Society.




Was referring to the local gym. Well, uni gym back in the days. Can't afford the private ones, ever.


noco said:


> Why can't the lefties in the USA just lay down their arms and accept Trump is the President instead of the endless billy goat bickering......So Clinton lost...so what?......The USA is a democratic country like Australia....What in the hell will all the lefties achieve with demonstrations and riots?.





Not many Americans care for Clinton, hence they didn't turn out to vote for her. You can even argue that those who voted for her didn't do it because they like her, but because they do not want Trump.

So all these weekly protests, it's not a "lefty" thing. It's just normal people wondering out loud at wtf is going on to their country under this idiot.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> So all these weekly protests, it's not a "lefty" thing. It's just normal people wondering out loud at wtf is going on to their country under this idiot.




Very true. A lot of people who voted for Trump are probably now thing "what have I done, I just wanted a protest vote, I never thought he would actually win".

Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## PZ99

I'll bet a lazy 50 that many of the protesters didn't vote at all but wished they had.


----------



## tech/a

Ill bet they are all fooled by randomness.
All polls had Clinton in by a country mile.
Media basically reported how Clinton was
a shoe in.

Perhaps the media lied!

It is what it is.
I hear bunker sales have sky rocketed (Pardon the pun).


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Was referring to the local gym. Well, uni gym back in the days. Can't afford the private ones, ever.
> 
> 
> Not many Americans care for Clinton, hence they didn't turn out to vote for her. You can even argue that those who voted for her didn't do it because they like her, but because they do not want Trump.
> 
> So all these weekly protests, it's not a "lefty" thing. It's just normal people wondering out loud at wtf is going on to their country under this idiot.




You could have fooled me.......It is the left in the USA who are causing all this tension.....If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Trump won the election and the left should accept it...It is absolute crap the way  these bad losers are carrying on.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> You could have fooled me.......It is the left in the USA who are causing all this tension.....If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.
> 
> Trump won the election and the left should accept it...It is absolute crap the way  these bad losers are carrying on.




So the Right is all good with Trump getting rid of what little is left of Wall St regulations? You know, the ones that tells the banks to keep a higher amount of capital reserve so that if they screw up, the taxpayers won't be stepping in, again, to bail them out... at least not too quickly and only spend a lot a lot instead of a heck of a lot of taxpayers cash to bail them out.

Or it's a good thing that financial advisors now no longer need to have any fiduciary duty towards their clients. It's cool to gamble with other people's life savings yea?

The Right is cool with Trump getting rid of regulations that does useless things like worker's safety, food safety, vehicle safety. No more nanny state telling the nice guys at GM how to not save a few bucks per switch per car. That as long as GM is making enough profit over the worst case scenario of x death per million, consumers will just have to live a little and see if they'll arrive home safely after a drive?

How's them bringing the jobs back going?

Beating up Mexicans and illegals from back-breaking work for a few bucks a day... Americans are all now rushing out there to fill those jobs are they?


It won't be long before the Right will be marching against Trump... wondering how come he's screwing them over like all previous administration has. Yes, that includes City on the Hill Reagan.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> So the Right is all good with Trump getting rid of what little is left of Wall St regulations? You know, the ones that tells the banks to keep a higher amount of capital reserve so that if they screw up, the taxpayers won't be stepping in, again, to bail them out... at least not too quickly and only spend a lot a lot instead of a heck of a lot of taxpayers cash to bail them out.
> 
> Or it's a good thing that financial advisors now no longer need to have any fiduciary duty towards their clients. It's cool to gamble with other people's life savings yea?
> 
> The Right is cool with Trump getting rid of regulations that does useless things like worker's safety, food safety, vehicle safety. No more nanny state telling the nice guys at GM how to not save a few bucks per switch per car. That as long as GM is making enough profit over the worst case scenario of x death per million, consumers will just have to live a little and see if they'll arrive home safely after a drive?
> 
> How's them bringing the jobs back going?
> 
> Beating up Mexicans and illegals from back-breaking work for a few bucks a day... Americans are all now rushing out there to fill those jobs are they?
> 
> 
> It won't be long before the Right will be marching against Trump... wondering how come he's screwing them over like all previous administration has. Yes, that includes City on the Hill Reagan.




Oh dear oh dear LUU, I think you are romancing with yourself again...Your imagination is running wild and getting out of hand.


----------



## Knobby22

Last time we got rid of the regulations in George W Bush's time, many of the banks blew themselves up and we had a crisis. If they do it again to get short term bonuses, the people won't bail them out again!


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Oh dear oh dear LUU, I think you are romancing with yourself again...Your imagination is running wild and getting out of hand.




You do realise that these are happening right?

Trump's executive decreed aren't just about bashing Muslims and deporting Mexicans and other brown people.

His Treasury Sec is a second generation Goldman Sachs banker. Work some 15 odd years at daddy's firm then went west where he screw over American home-owners and given the honorary title of the Foreclosure King.

His bank foreclose on a literal grandma of some 94 years of age because she, according to them, miss some 50 cents from her reverse-mortgage repayment.

A real people of the people Trump's lot. 

But ey, he learnt today that it's not cool to be racist against the Jews. Because he have many friends who are Jewish, his son in law is also Jewish. So yea, keep the racism to the other brown people and Muslims alright?

Too funny if it weren't so tragic.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Last time we got rid of the regulations in George W Bush's time, many of the banks blew themselves up and we had a crisis. If they do it again to get short term bonuses, the people won't bail them out again!





Oh, "the people" will have to bail them out.

Those bankers have gotten bigger than the last time they were too big to fail.

If they fail, and they will, the world's going to heck... or so we're told.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> You do realise that these are happening right?
> 
> Trump's executive decreed aren't just about bashing Muslims and deporting Mexicans and other brown people.
> 
> His Treasury Sec is a second generation Goldman Sachs banker. Work some 15 odd years at daddy's firm then went west where he screw over American home-owners and given the honorary title of the Foreclosure King.
> 
> His bank foreclose on a literal grandma of some 94 years of age because she, according to them, miss some 50 cents from her reverse-mortgage repayment.
> 
> A real people of the people Trump's lot.
> 
> But ey, he learnt today that it's not cool to be racist against the Jews. Because he have many friends who are Jewish, his son in law is also Jewish. So yea, keep the racism to the other brown people and Muslims alright?
> 
> Too funny if it weren't so tragic.



Time to come down off of cloud 9 Luu......If he gets rid of the Muslims in the USA , good on him......They are starting to wake up in Europe...The Danes have just pass new laws regarding Islam. 
The political revolution in Australia will also take some action against this unwanted group who won't accept our laws and assimilate into the community.......We must fight any move these people have in mind to force Sharia law on us.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Time to come down off of cloud 9 Luu......If he gets rid of the Muslims in the USA , good on him......They are starting to wake up in Europe...The Danes have just pass new laws regarding Islam.
> The political revolution in Australia will also take some action against this unwanted group who won't accept our laws and assimilate into the community.......We must fight any move these people have in mind to force Sharia law on us.




Got a flag I could wrap around?


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Time to come down off of cloud 9 Luu......If he gets rid of the Muslims in the USA , good on him......They are starting to wake up in Europe...The Danes have just pass new laws regarding Islam.
> The political revolution in Australia will also take some action against this unwanted group who won't accept our laws and assimilate into the community.......We must fight any move these people have in mind to force Sharia law on us.




Good luck achieving that without creating far more unrest and violence than there is currently.

From Wiki


> *Islam* is the third largest religion in the United States after Christianity and Judaism.[1] According to a 2010 study, it is followed by 0.9% of the population


----------



## SirRumpole

* Unskilled and unable: Why Donald Trump's great jobs promise is a lie *

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comm...at-jobs-promise-is-a-lie-20170222-guijx3.html


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> Good luck achieving that without creating far more unrest and violence than there is currently.
> 
> From Wiki




So why do we have violence in Australia?......Why are we have so many demonstrations and riots in Australia?........ Who would you say is behind it all and why do we have to tolerate any of it?


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> So why do we have violence in Australia?......Why are we have so many demonstrations and riots in Australia?........ Who would you say is behind it all and why do we have to tolerate any of it?




Australia has one of the lowest crime rates of any country on the planet.

Are you suggesting violence in Australia is a Muslim issue?  Do you have any statistics to back this claim up?

Go back through all mass killings, terrorist attacks and homicides in Australia and let me know what percentage of those are attributable to those of a Muslim background.

If we are going to blame crime on specific religious groups we'd be deporting all Catholics as well, refer outcome of the Royal Commission.  There is a high crime rate amongst the aboriginal community as well, add those to your list.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Australia has one of the lowest crime rates of any country on the planet.
> 
> Are you suggesting violence in Australia is a Muslim issue?  Do you have any statistics to back this claim up?
> 
> Go back through all mass killings, terrorist attacks and homicides in Australia and let me know what percentage of those are attributable to those of a Muslim background.
> 
> If we are going to blame crime on specific religious groups we'd be deporting all Catholics as well, refer outcome of the Royal Commission.  There is a high crime rate amongst the aboriginal community as well, add those to your list.





Maybe confine that to the beginning of the mass Muslim intakes of recent decades and then weight the data based on population density.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Oh dear oh dear LUU, I think you are romancing with yourself again...Your imagination is running wild and getting out of hand.




These are Trump's actual stated goals..... he wants to deport mexicans, bring jobs back to america (90% of which will be automated of course), remove fiduciary duty for financial advisers, and remove regulation which has been imposed since GFC.  As I've previously stated, he is trying to halt and reverse the progress of the human race.  Stupidity of epic proportions.

He is also anti any measures to reduce pollution or have any concern for the environment.


----------



## SirRumpole

Junior said:


> Are you suggesting violence in Australia is a Muslim issue? Do you have any statistics to back this claim up?




Australian police forces have had Middle East Crime Squads for about 10 years. Middle East crime gangs are a recognised problem in this country.


----------



## Junior

Difficult to find statistics on relationship between crime and ethnicity/religion.



> *What the statistics say*
> 
> Although the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) currently doesn’t collect information on the ethnic background of offenders, Australian Bureau of Statistics custody figures for 2012 demonstrate the proportion of different ethnic groups that were serving custodial sentences in that year.
> 
> As at June 2012, 80% of prisoners in Australian prisons were born in Australia, although there is no breakdown of their ethnic origins.
> 
> Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders made up just over a quarter of prisoners in Australia, while 3% were born in New Zealand, 3% in Vietnam, and 2% in the United Kingdom.
> 
> In NSW and Victoria, the number of prisoners born overseas was slightly higher than the national average of 20%.
> 
> Tasmania and the NT had the lowest percentage of prisoners born overseas.






> *The link between immigration and crime*
> 
> Although the vast majority of prisoners in custody were born in Australia, the media has perpetuated the idea of a link between immigrants and crime for many years.
> 
> In 2012, concerns were raised by the media in Victoria that there were increasing crime rates among the migrant community in Melbourne, particularly the Somalian community.
> 
> Refugee groups responded by saying that any such link would likely be a result of social isolation, difficulty finding work, and education issues.
> 
> A paper was produced by Victoria University in 2006 on the links between crime and ethnicity.
> 
> An analysis was undertaken of the crime rates within certain selected local government areas in Victoria and the birthplace and cultural identity of the offenders.
> 
> It excluded those of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent.
> 
> The findings indicated that those born outside of Australia were slightly more likely to commit property and drug offences in the selected communities than those who were Australian-born.
> 
> The study also found that the rate of crime for those born outside Australia but who had Australian citizenship was lower than the more recent arrivals, who didn’t have citizenship.
> 
> Rates were also slightly higher for immigrants who originated from non-English speaking countries than those who came from the UK or North America, leading to speculation that difficulty adjusting and language issues could be a significant contributor to a higher rate of crimes committed by recent immigrants in that particular area.




http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/offences-by-nationality/


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> Australia has one of the lowest crime rates of any country on the planet.
> 
> Are you suggesting violence in Australia is a Muslim issue?  Do you have any statistics to back this claim up?
> 
> Go back through all mass killings, terrorist attacks and homicides in Australia and let me know what percentage of those are attributable to those of a Muslim background.
> 
> If we are going to blame crime on specific religious groups we'd be deporting all Catholics as well, refer outcome of the Royal Commission.  There is a high crime rate amongst the aboriginal community as well, add those to your list.




You don't appear to read the papers of listen to TV.......There may not be many killings as yet, but the demonstrations and riots are happening just to show the Islamic muscle....It is all about fear and intimidation....The killings will come if Islam is not curtailed.......They only have one thing in mind and that is to rule the world....They want to introduce Sharia law her in Australia.

Now I put it to you would be happy to live under Sharia law?


----------



## Trembling Hand

LOL..... ya always regret walking into the monkey pit.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Difficult to find statistics on relationship between crime and ethnicity/religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/offences-by-nationality/




I think prison populations in the states with the most Muslims, is around 10% of inmates.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> You don't appear to read the papers of listen to TV.......There may not be many killings as yet, but the demonstrations and riots are happening just to show the Islamic muscle....It is all about fear and intimidation....The killings will come if Islam is not curtailed.......They only have one thing in mind and that is to rule the world....They want to introduce Sharia law her in Australia.
> 
> Now I put it to you would be happy to live under Sharia law?




I prefer to see stats/evidence rather than relying on fear mongering in the media.


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> I prefer to see stats/evidence rather than relying on fear mongering in the media.




Junior, it is not fear mongering....Just look at what is happening in the UK and Europe.

So are trying to tell me there has been no demonstrations in Sydney and Melbourne?


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Junior, it is not fear mongering....Just look at what is happening in the UK and Europe.
> 
> So are trying to tell me there has been no demonstrations in Sydney and Melbourne?




Demonstrations aren't exactly riots, right?

I haven't read up on whatever demonstrations they held, but it is what a democracy is supposed to permit.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Demonstrations aren't exactly riots, right?
> 
> I haven't read up on whatever demonstrations they held, but it is what a democracy is supposed to permit.




Luu, would you like to live under Sharia law?


----------



## Tisme

Now he wants to expand the nuclear weapons program to make US "top of the pack"


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Junior, it is not fear mongering....Just look at what is happening in the UK and Europe.
> 
> So are trying to tell me there has been no demonstrations in Sydney and Melbourne?




I've never said a thing about demonstrations.  I'm looking at crime statistics.  Do demonstrations = criminal activity?

No one has ever suggested to me personally or anyone I know, that we should be living under sharia law.  Your question to me in this forum is the first time that has been suggested to me.  The answer is no.  No I do not wish to live under Sharia law.  Which major political party is suggesting that we will in this country?

I'm more concerned about the horrific child sex abuse statistics in the Catholic church to be honest.


----------



## Tink

_JFK wanted to send a man to the moon. Obama wanted to send a man to the women's restrooms._

------------------

*Trump scraps Obama's transgender bathroom rules*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsgender-bathroom-guidance.html#ixzz4ZU0EME80

imv, good on Trump, for giving men and boys their bathrooms, and giving women and girls back their bathrooms.

Women do mind if men come in the womens bathrooms.

The government making laws on this is wrong, imv.

--------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/chaos-in-australian-education.25851/page-6

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/

Statism and over-riding of parents, imv.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> _JFK wanted to send a man to the moon. Obama wanted to send a man to the women's restrooms._
> 
> ------------------
> 
> *Trump scraps Obama's transgender bathroom rules*
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsgender-bathroom-guidance.html#ixzz4ZU0EME80
> 
> imv, good on Trump, for giving men and boys their bathrooms, and giving women and girls back their bathrooms.
> 
> Women do mind if men come in the womens bathrooms.
> 
> The government making laws on this is wrong, imv.
> 
> --------------------
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/chaos-in-australian-education.25851/page-6
> 
> http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/
> 
> Statism and over-riding of parents, imv.




I was at some beach around Gosford and they have mixed gender bathroom/toilet.

Each cubicle is its own room, the basins are public out in the open.

What's the problem? Safety or just wanting to tell the gays and weirdos how inferior they are?


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> What's the problem?




Rapists masquerading as gays ?

I think women may be a bit worried about unisex loos, and I agree with them.


----------



## SirRumpole

So an Aussie kid's book author is now a terrorist ? Disgusting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...t-los-angeles-airport-by-us-officials/8303366


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Rapists masquerading as gays ?
> 
> I think women may be a bit worried about unisex loos, and I agree with them.




Rapists wouldn't rape if the toilet says Female?

The unisex I went to, each toilet is its own room. 

But the US and Trump's repeal is not so much about uni-sex bathroom but more about transgender using the bathroom that matches their sex. So they might have been born a male, had their sex reaasigned and are all a female in both physical, mental and clothing wise.

Anywya, it's just distractions as Trump is about to ramp up the theft of trillions of dollars from the American public and spend it on nuclear weapons and other cool hardware to show that the US is not to be messed around with. 

Because the thing that the US lack all these years are a nuclear arsenal and shietload of weapons of wars.


----------



## CanOz

Anyone have a chart of the US defense stock index?


----------



## Tink

Aren't we lucky that we have freedom of speech in this country, Luutzu.


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> Aren't we lucky that we have freedom of speech in this country, Luutzu.






I'll watch it all later, meanwhile I need to choose a dress to wear tonight.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I'll watch it all later, meanwhile I need to choose a dress to wear tonight.




I'll bet you will stuff up the matching lipstick though.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> I'll bet you will stuff up the matching lipstick though.




 I'm one of those women who doesn't believe in masking the looks God gave me. If men can't accept me for what I am, the natural form of my face, the age lines and my inner beauty and penis they are the ones missing out.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Aren't we lucky that we have freedom of speech in this country, Luutzu.





I like Tucker a lot better when he wore his stupid bow tie. Less pretentious then.

So Obama is as bad (or worst) as Trump because Obama only pass on the guidelines 7 years into his admin? Woah. From memory, and I'm no fan of Obama, his admin tackle his pretty soon after it became a national issue, which is some 6 to 7 years in.

But for Trump to overturn it, that's alright, Trump isn't nasty at all.

Then the waffling on nonsense like how do we know if the person is a male or female, what if they just say they are transgender when they're not. What if a sportsman just say they're a female and so get to play in the women's team.

People actually get pay for saying dumb shiet like that?


----------



## noco

The financier behind Labor's off shoot, GETUP, has been arrested on charges of hate crime against America.

Bill Shorten will miss him terribly.

http://usapoliticsnow.com/breaking-george-soros-arrested-charged-hate-crimes-america/


----------



## bellenuit

noco said:


> The financier behind Labor's off shoot, GETUP, has been arrested on charges of hate crime against America.
> 
> Bill Shorten will miss him terribly.
> 
> http://usapoliticsnow.com/breaking-george-soros-arrested-charged-hate-crimes-america/





Are you sure Noco? Did you try to verify it. All the articles I have read said he was arrested trying to leave the US (under a decree from Trump) and posted this picture:







But why do the police have Politia on their jackets. Weird for US police. Also found the same photo on the net from Nov 15th 2016 in this article:

http://bients.com/live-poll-should-trump-take-out-george-soros-and-put-him-in-prison/

A little more digging with Google Image using cropped version of Soros' face from the arrest image, found the source used in the photoshopping:

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?im...imgrc=rAFstOTDxNHhpM:&tbnh=189&tbnw=266&w=360


----------



## Tink

Luutzu, I agree with Tucker, and I agree with what Trump did.


----------



## noco

bellenuit said:


> Are you sure Noco? Did you try to verify it. All the articles I have read said he was arrested trying to leave the US (under a decree from Trump) and posted this picture:
> 
> View attachment 70105
> 
> 
> But why do the police have Politia on their jackets. Weird for US police. Also found the same photo on the net from Nov 15th 2016 in this article:
> 
> http://bients.com/live-poll-should-trump-take-out-george-soros-and-put-him-in-prison/
> 
> A little more digging with Google Image using cropped version of Soros' face from the arrest image, found the source used in the photoshopping:
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/imgres?im...imgrc=rAFstOTDxNHhpM:&tbnh=189&tbnw=266&w=360




What do you think should Trump punish George Soros and put him in prison? VOTE



Thank you for voting!
Should Trump take out George Soros and put him in prison?

YES   100% - ( 55 votes )


NO   0% - ( 0 votes )


----------



## basilio

Ah Noco you are SO, So  spectacularly  special.  To have found that incredible story on  George Soros and leave it on our doorstep like a puppies special gift.

Do you ever consider the smallest degree of reflection or investigation of clearly BS stories ? Or do we just mock the xxxx out of you and demonstrate how many other sites there are on the net that create  such memes for you and your friends to swallow?


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Ah Noco you are SO, So  spectacularly  special.  To have found that incredible story on  George Soros and leave it on our doorstep like a puppies special gift.
> 
> Do you ever consider the smallest degree of reflection or investigation of clearly BS stories ? Or do we just mock the xxxx out of you and demonstrate how many other sites there are on the net that create  such memes for you and your friends to swallow?




Wow.....you are angry this morning Bas.....Have I got under skin?


----------



## basilio

noco said:


> Wow.....you are angry this morning Bas.....Have I got under skin?




Nah.. Just reflecting on the point of me or anyone else here taking anything you say seriously given your incapacity to see when you are regurgitating total rubbish and totally proud of it.

Lot like listening to your mate Donald Trump really.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Luutzu, I agree with Tucker, and I agree with what Trump did.




I heard that the new Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, a billionaire Right-wing, Christian White supremacist who really does not care for public education.... Even DeVos was against Trump's decree on this. 

She told Trump that this would harm many LGTP kids. But yes, it's to protect the children or something.


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Nah.. Just reflecting on the point of me or anyone else here taking anything you say seriously given your incapacity to see when you are regurgitating total rubbish and totally proud of it.
> 
> Lot like listening to your mate Donald Trump really.




So what you are virtually saying is Soros has not been arrested....Is this the "RUBBISH" you claim...It is not about me saying as you state, I am only the messenger and you want to shoot the messenger......
I am sorry but I do not follow your reasoning......Instead of snide remarks about me, why don't you disprove that Soros has been financing GETUP which is an off shoot of the Labor propaganda machine.
I should remind viewers on the forum, Bill Shorten is a foundation member  and past board member of GETUP.
More "RUBBISH", I don't think so........It is a fact that can be quite easily proven.


----------



## basilio

xxxx


----------



## basilio

basilio said:


> So what you are virtually saying is Soros has not been arrested....Is this the "RUBBISH" you claim...It is not about me saying as you state, I am only the messenger and you want to shoot the messenger...




How about that is EXACTLY what I'm saying.  George Soros has not been arrested for hate crimes or anything like that. Your just quoting rubbish lies that can be disproved with a couple of seconds check on the web. 
Being a "messenger" of lies when it takes nothing to check out the veracity of them makes you a liar as well.  (Just like Donald Trump of course.)


*Was George Soros Arrested?*
*Reports that billionaire George Soros was arrested and charged with hate crimes against America are fake news.*






382           
*CLAIM*

George Soros was arrested and charged with hate crimes against America.

*RATING*





 FALSE
*ORIGIN*
In February 2017, the spoof web site The Last Line of Defense published a fake news article reporting that billionaire financier has been arrested and charged with hate crimes against America:
http://www.snopes.com/george-soros-arrested/


----------



## noco

Perhaps you might like to read about his activities around the world.......

http://philosophyofmetrics.com/the-take-down-of-george-soros-has-begun/
*This will be contrasted after against the rising opposition which is represented by the election of Trump and the BREXIT vote.

I won’t waste word space by going into too much detail on these connections, as the internet is full of reliable and validated sources which can be easily googled and found.  We will focus on the broad strokes and obvious connections which make up the larger pattern.

The most obvious is open borders.  George Soros and his hoard of foundations and organizations have been involved in the funding of ISIS and the subsequent migrant crisis which has spread around the world. It has even been suggested that Soros has been involved in the funding of ISIS recruits within America.

The Open Society Foundation, and a host of subsidiary organizations, are now being openly exposed for their anti-Israeli operations.  This could be an attempt to sever Israel’s connections with the United States and isolate the nation internationally.  Why Soros would do this is not immediately obvious, but will be as we explain more.*


----------



## basilio

So Noco while you are interested in peddling more BS how about checking out the following  stories.  (Some are actually quite true..)

*Democratic Congressmen Busted Planning to Assassinate Trump?*

*Is Obama 'Commanding' an Army of 30,000 Anti-Trump Activists From His Home?*

*Pat Robertson: Those Who Oppose Trump Are Revolting Against God’s Plan*

*The President-Reject*
*A passage attributed to Theodore Roosevelt holds that it is unpatriotic, servile, and morally treasonable to proclaim that there must be no criticism of the President.*

*http://www.snopes.com/theodore-roosevelt-on-criticizing-the-president/*





noco said:


> Perhaps you might like to read about his activities around the world.......
> 
> http://philosophyofmetrics.com/the-take-down-of-george-soros-has-begun/
> *This will be contrasted after against the rising opposition which is represented by the election of Trump and the BREXIT vote.
> 
> I won’t waste word space by going into too much detail on these connections, as the internet is full of reliable and validated sources which can be easily googled and found.  We will focus on the broad strokes and obvious connections which make up the larger pattern.
> 
> The most obvious is open borders.  George Soros and his hoard of foundations and organizations have been involved in the funding of ISIS and the subsequent migrant crisis which has spread around the world. It has even been suggested that Soros has been involved in the funding of ISIS recruits within America.
> 
> The Open Society Foundation, and a host of subsidiary organizations, are now being openly exposed for their anti-Israeli operations.  This could be an attempt to sever Israel’s connections with the United States and isolate the nation internationally.  Why Soros would do this is not immediately obvious, but will be as we explain more.*




My God you can come up with some first rate  crackpots Noco. This portentous Philosopher of Metric s site is the baby of one J C Collins.  

Just undocumented, unproven dribble.

You'll notice he is the only writer in this site and I was particularly taken by his Grand Man article.  says it all really.

*The Grand Man – Chapter Two*
July 22, 2015 JC Collins 64 Comments
The Before the Beginning

By JC Collins

Thoth, the god of learning in the Egyptian Mysteries, considered the pineal gland to be the source of twenty-six thousand books.  In the first chapter of this series we reviewed how the brain is an embryo attempting to become.  The pineal gland is the center of this embryo, and represents the only singular part of the human brain, which is found in the center between both halves.

The alchemical mystery of regeneration, or becoming, is deeply connected with the pineal gland.  The regeneration of man, or the becoming of the grand man, is dependent upon the process of accessing this gland, and extracting the nectar of both the visible and invisible worlds of nature.  The reconciliation of both is a function of the pineal gland, the place where spirit and matter meet, and represents the alchemical process of turning base metals into gold.
The esoteric function of the pineal gland is not recognized or acknowledged by modern medicine and science.  But some interesting characteristics of the pine cone shaped gland can provide the abstract thinker with an extraordinary understanding of its deeper function.

Just after the forty-seventh day of fetal development the pineal gland begins to form.  This formation is accompanied by the first dump of DMT, or N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, the active chemical in shamanic plant brews, such as Ayahuasca.

Corresponding to the early development of the pineal gland, the first signs of sexual generation begin and male/female physical orientation is also decided immediately after the forty-seventh day.  The connections between DMT, the pineal gland, and gender, are directly and esoterically anchored to the release of DMT during sexual orgasm.  In fact, the word penis is likely derived from the word pineal, meaning pine cone shaped, like the shape of the tip of the male sex organ.

http://philosophyofmetrics.com/the-grand-man-chapter-two/


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> So Noco while you are interested in peddling more BS how about checking out the following  stories.  (Some are actually quite true..)
> 
> *Democratic Congressmen Busted Planning to Assassinate Trump?*
> 
> *Is Obama 'Commanding' an Army of 30,000 Anti-Trump Activists From His Home?*
> 
> *Pat Robertson: Those Who Oppose Trump Are Revolting Against God’s Plan*
> 
> *The President-Reject*
> *A passage attributed to Theodore Roosevelt holds that it is unpatriotic, servile, and morally treasonable to proclaim that there must be no criticism of the President.*
> 
> *http://www.snopes.com/theodore-roosevelt-on-criticizing-the-president/*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My God you can come up with some first rate  crackpots Noco. This portentous Philosopher of Metric s site is the baby of one J C Collins.
> 
> Just undocumented, unproven dribble.
> 
> You'll notice he is the only writer in this site and I was particularly taken by his Grand Man article.  says it all really.
> 
> *The Grand Man – Chapter Two*
> July 22, 2015 JC Collins 64 Comments
> The Before the Beginning
> 
> By JC Collins
> 
> Thoth, the god of learning in the Egyptian Mysteries, considered the pineal gland to be the source of twenty-six thousand books.  In the first chapter of this series we reviewed how the brain is an embryo attempting to become.  The pineal gland is the center of this embryo, and represents the only singular part of the human brain, which is found in the center between both halves.
> 
> The alchemical mystery of regeneration, or becoming, is deeply connected with the pineal gland.  The regeneration of man, or the becoming of the grand man, is dependent upon the process of accessing this gland, and extracting the nectar of both the visible and invisible worlds of nature.  The reconciliation of both is a function of the pineal gland, the place where spirit and matter meet, and represents the alchemical process of turning base metals into gold.
> The esoteric function of the pineal gland is not recognized or acknowledged by modern medicine and science.  But some interesting characteristics of the pine cone shaped gland can provide the abstract thinker with an extraordinary understanding of its deeper function.
> 
> Just after the forty-seventh day of fetal development the pineal gland begins to form.  This formation is accompanied by the first dump of DMT, or N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, the active chemical in shamanic plant brews, such as Ayahuasca.
> 
> Corresponding to the early development of the pineal gland, the first signs of sexual generation begin and male/female physical orientation is also decided immediately after the forty-seventh day.  The connections between DMT, the pineal gland, and gender, are directly and esoterically anchored to the release of DMT during sexual orgasm.  In fact, the word penis is likely derived from the word pineal, meaning pine cone shaped, like the shape of the tip of the male sex organ.
> 
> http://philosophyofmetrics.com/the-grand-man-chapter-two/




Well here is one for you......Snopes.com does not exactly have clean hands when it come to presenting the true facts....
Kim Lacapria is a self confessed leftie is very biased when ever she can.

David Mikkelson has also been accused of distorting the truth.

I guess when you read the link below, you come back with the word "RUBBISH".

http://www.angrypatriotmovement.com/who-is-behind-snopes/

Chief among the Progressive stalwarts at Snopes is “main political fact-checker,” Kim Lacapria, according to the Daily Caller. Ironically, or not, prior to her position as political fact-checker for Snopes, Lacapria was wrote for the _Inquisitr_, a blog with less than stellar reputation.

Today, Snopes has turned into a sycophantic political surrogate for the Progressive Left, the Obama Administration, and Hillary Clinton. Fancying itself as a “political fact-checker,” it has become completely unreliable, existing as an excuse making machine for the morally relativistic and a propaganda apparatus fueled by unfounded accusations and political talking points; talking points seemingly crafted and issued directly from the Progressive minions of Chicago.

To say Lacapria exhibited “clear partisanship” while writing for _Inquisitr_ would be to ignore her writing sounded more like that of a Democrat *speechwriter tha*n that of an objective journalist.

*Lacapria violated the very first rule of journalistic ethics in describing herself as “openly left-leaning” and a liberal. To stake out a position with such fervor is to admit there exists not an objective bone in her body, which, by that very fact, makes her disqualified – ethically – from “fact-checking” anything political.*


----------



## basilio

Well that all makes perfect sense doesn't it Noco ?  
Pesky sites like Snopes keep trying to find evidence for allegations made on everybody.  It turns out, surprise surprise,   most of the really juicy fake news is created by the Trump and co wackos.

What a shame .  So of course the next obvious step for the Trump wackos is to whack Snopes as part of the grand conspiracy. 

Perfect no more problems . You can go back to whatever dubious, dribble you want to make up on the kitchen table that slanders your political opponents and rest easy that no one can call you out.
_______________________________________________________________

Out of sheer interest Noco do you still believe that George Soros has been arrested for hate crimes ?  Cause if you do I have $10,000 to put on the table that in fact he hasn't been arrested for such crimes and that the stories being churned around are just rubbish ? 
Up for it ?


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Well that all makes perfect sense doesn't it Noco ?
> Pesky sites like Snopes keep trying to find evidence for allegations made on everybody.  It turns out, surprise surprise,   most of the really juicy fake news is created by the Trump and co wackos.
> 
> What a shame .  So of course the next obvious step for the Trump wackos is to whack Snopes as part of the grand conspiracy.
> 
> Perfect no more problems . You can go back to whatever dubious, dribble you want to make up on the kitchen table that slanders your political opponents and rest easy that no one can call you out.
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> Out of sheer interest Noco do you still believe that George Soros has been arrested for hate crimes ?  Cause if you do I have $10,000 to put on the table that in fact he hasn't been arrested for such crimes and that the stories being churned around are just rubbish ?
> Up for it ?




No not at this stage but we just might see some developments in the near future.
You  don't read where Snopes has criticized Obama and Clinton from the democrats....They are very biased just like our ABC and GETUP here in Aus..


----------



## pixel

basilio said:


> *Pat Robertson: Those Who Oppose Trump Are Revolting Against God’s Plan*



Just received a Divine Reply:
*God: *
*Those Who Support Donald Trump and Pauline Hanson Are Revolting...*


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> I guess when you read the link below, you come back with the word "RUBBISH".
> 
> http://www.angrypatriotmovement.com/who-is-behind-snopes/




Fairly self evident .

Peer review? = http://www.fakenewschecker.com/fake-news-source/angry-patriot

and a bit of review of snopes from someone with an IQ better than an inbred hillbilly:

http://realorsatire.com/snopes-com/


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> Fairly self evident .
> 
> Peer review? = http://www.fakenewschecker.com/fake-news-source/angry-patriot
> 
> and a bit of review of snopes from someone with an IQ better than an inbred hillbilly:
> 
> http://realorsatire.com/snopes-com/




More BS and dribble from a Socialist infested organization.


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> More BS and dribble from a Socialist infested organization.




You think? There's two organisations there surely the laws of probability suggests one is right?

Angry Patriot is an extreme right wing pulp fiction site that feeds off its own made up drivel and conspiracies. It is a comedy in the same vein as Fade To Black website was back in the 90's = it deliberately takes the micky and gullible people actually rally to it as some kind of totem of fact.


----------



## wayneL

pixel said:


> Just received a Divine Reply:
> *God: *
> *Those Who Support Donald Trump and Pauline Hanson Are Revolting...*



Yes they are revolting against leftardery


----------



## pixel

wayneL said:


> leftardery



Thanks for that. Had to look it up, but by doing so I learned something from you: *Leftardery*, described as *the opposite to Fascism*, would definitely appeal to the Deity at the core of the religion said to have shaped Western Civilisation.
Maybe I'm not such a bad Agnostic after all


----------



## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> Out of sheer interest Noco do you still believe that George Soros has been arrested for hate crimes ?




If someone famous, and Soros is reasonably well known though not really a celebrity as such, is arrested then you can be pretty sure the mainstream news will at least report the arrest even if not stating the reasons.

I saw it mentioned in this thread, checked a few mainstream news sites and found that none of them were reporting anything about Soros being arrested, so I concluded that it was a fake story.


----------



## bellenuit

Smurf1976 said:


> I saw it mentioned in this thread, checked a few mainstream news sites and found that none of them were reporting anything about Soros being arrested, so I concluded that it was a fake story.




And in true fashion, the two alt-right news sites (only those I checked) that reported that fake story criticised the mainstream news for not reporting it.

This unfortunately is the new reality. The alt-right continuously posts fake news, but labels the MSM as purveyors of fake news. This clouds everything, so the gullible end up believing what matches their own prejudices. 

And the really sad part is..... Now that those alt-right sites have been shown to spread fake news, their readers will not go and reassess what they had previously learned from those site. The very reasons that there was such a hysteria about arresting Soros, was because of the fake lies that the alt-right news sites spread about him.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump is creating thousands of clones across the US.  Every jumped up xxxxhole with an ounce of authority now has the opportunity to as mindless, vicious and vindictive as the xxxxhole -in -chief.

Where do we start ? How about the treatment of people pulled out for special interrogation at airports.  We now have a first hand account from Australia writer Mem Fox on the nasty little trumps that have been sprung from the spirit of Donald Trump.

* Mem Fox on being detained by US immigration: 'In that moment I loathed America' *
Mem Fox
*Exclusive: *The celebrated Australian children’s author tells how on her 117th visit to the US she was suddenly at the mercy of Donald Trump’s visa regime




‘Remember, I wasn’t pulled out out because I’m some kind of revolutionary activist, but my God, I am now.’ Photograph: Tracey Nearmy/AAP

* Comments*
 983 
Tuesday 28 February 2017 09.31 AEDT   Last modified on Tuesday 28 February 2017 15.23 AEDT

I was pulled out of line in the immigration queue at Los Angeles airport as I came in to the USA. Not because I was Mem Fox the writer – nobody knew that – I was just a normal person like anybody else. They thought I was working in the States and that I had come in on the wrong visa.

I was receiving an honorarium for delivering an opening keynote at a literacy conference, and because my expenses were being paid, they said: “You need to answer further questions.” So I was taken into this holding room with about 20 other people and kept there for an hour and 40 minutes, and for 15 minutes I was interrogated.

The belligerence and violence of it was really terrifying

The room was like a waiting room in a hospital but a bit more grim than that. There was a notice on the wall that was far too small, saying no cellphones allowed, and anybody who did use a cellphone had someone stand in front of them and yell: “Don’t use that phone!” Everything was yelled, and everything was public, and this was the most awful thing, I heard things happening in that room happening to other people that made me ashamed to be human.

There was an Iranian woman in a wheelchair, she was about 80, wearing a little mauve cardigan, and they were yelling at her – “Arabic? Arabic?”. They screamed at her “ARABIC?” at the top of their voices, and finally she intuited what they wanted and I heard her say “Farsi”. And I thought heaven help her, she’s Iranian, what’s going to happen?

_   and it just goes on and on and on. The finish is special._


...... I am a human being, so I do understand that these people might not be well-trained, but they now have carte blanche to be as horrible and belligerent as they want. They’ve gone mad – they’ve got all the power that they want but they don’t have the training.

They made me feel like such a crushed, mashed, hopeless old lady and I am a feisty, strong, articulated English speaker. I kept thinking that if this were happening to me, a person who is white, articulate, educated and fluent in English, what on earth is happening to people who don’t have my power? 

That’s the heartbreak of it. Remember, I wasn’t pulled out because I’m some kind of revolutionary activist, but my God, I am now. I am on the frontline. If we don’t stand up and shout, good sense and good will not prevail, and my voice will be one of the loudest.

That’s what it has taught me. I thought I was an activist before, but this has turned me into a revolutionary. I’m not letting it happen here. Instead of crying and being sad and sitting on a couch, I am going to write to politicians. I am going to call. I am going to write to newspapers. I am going to get on the radio. I will not be quiet. No more passive behaviour. Hear me roar.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-loathed-america-i-loathed-the-entire-country


----------



## Tink

Looks like they have a Ronald Reagan back, tearing down political correctness, imv.


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> Looks like they have a Ronald Reagan back, tearing down political correctness, imv.





Your view might be shared by many


----------



## Tisme

Obama wire tapping Donald Trump....that's what Donald is saying now. 

He certainly has a few issue going on in his mind ..... what there is of it.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Obama wire tapping Donald Trump....that's what Donald is saying now.
> 
> He certainly has a few issue going on in his mind ..... what there is of it.



What a load of garbage...
It is quite simple. As Prez Trump has full access to all the evidence that would show President Obama directed wire tapping at Trump before the election.

*If this allegation is true he just has to release the evidence. End of story.  *If he can't  then clearly there isn't any ... and he is just a slandering, lying piece of xxxxx who in any other time would be forced to resign in disgrace after making such a baseless accusation.

Of course in the Time of Trump he doesn't need anything as evidence -  just his personal assertion seems to be sufficient.

Truly this creature is a xxxxxxxxx menace.

*How Donald Trump could settle the debate around his wiretapping allegations *

*http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...-wiretapping-allegations-20170305-guqz3u.html*


----------



## SirRumpole

The mind of Donald Trump, such as it is.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/the-mind-of-donald-trump/480771/


----------



## wayneL

Yep, Trump no match to Obama at the art of subterfuge. 

Obama's skill of making putrid faecal matter smell like roses to cognitively dissonant leftists is unmatched.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Yep, Trump no match to Obama at the art of subterfuge.
> 
> Obama's skill of making putrid faecal matter smell like roses to cognitively dissonant leftists is unmatched.




That's true.

Heard some journalist saying that there's an actual study on Obama's speeches where they found that the first paragraph is all sweet liberal talk, followed by points and paragraphs that negate all that nonsense.

We tortured some folks. What can we do but torture some folks. 

Taking 2 wars from Bush Jr. and turn it into 7. 

Trump is a bit smarter, if we call a commander in chief washing his hands of any responsibility smart, and now let his generals decide what country to drone. No more kill list the president need to sign off. Just take 'em out and "...start winning wars". 

That and jacking up the military budget by $54B to some $600B a year. Paid for by gutting EPA and other useless stuff like food and drug safety regulations. 

If you're a planner in Beijing and Moscow, not sure if you're laughing or feeling really really worried.


----------



## explod

Trump would have the vibe on it alright.  J. Edgar Hoover started out in the 1920's as a library assistant.  He learnt to and set up an index system of those above him and gradually rose by using these dossiers to sort of put people in their place or out of his pathway up.  Soon rose to head the FBI, controlled six Presidents, had groups seized and never to be seen again.  This is the same FBI today.  Had a colleague study advanced detectve skills with them in the 80s so made a study of Hoover and the system in later years.  Kennedy defied the FBI and got his.  So the following makes me wonder:-



> Binney told Washington's Blog:
> 
> 
> 
> NSA has all the data through the Upstream programs (Fairview/Stormbrew/Blarney)  [background] and backed up by second and some third party country collection.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus the FBI and CIA plus others, as of the last month of the Obama administration, have direct access to all the NSA collection (metadata and content on phones,email and banking/credit cards etc.) with no attempt at oversight by anybody [background]. This is all done under Executive Order 12333 [the order which allows unlimited spying no matter what intelligence officials claim] ....
> 
> 
> 
> FBI would only ask for a warrant if they wanted to be able to take it into court at some point given they have something meaningful as evidence. This is clearly true given the fact the President Trump's phone conversations with other country leaders were leaked to the mainstream media.
> 
> In other words, Binney is saying that Trumps phones _were_ bugged by the NSA without a warrant - remember, top NSA whistleblowers have previously explained that the NSA is spying on virtually _all_ of the digital communications of Americans. - and the NSA shared the raw data with the CIA, FBI and other agencies.
> 
> If the FBI obtained a warrant to tap Trump's phone, it was a "parallel construction" to "launder" improperly-gained evidence through acceptable channels.
> 
> As we've previously explained:
> 
> 
> 
> The government is “laundering” information gained through mass surveillance through other agencies, with an agreement that the agencies will “recreate” the evidence in a “parallel construction” … so they don’t have to admit that the evidence came from unconstitutional spying. This data laundering is getting worse and worse.
> 
> So does it mean that the NSA spying on Trump Tower actually turned up some dirt?
> 
> Maybe ...
> 
> But history shows that mass surveillance has long been used to _blackmail opponents_ ... including high-level officials.  And see this.
> 
> And the former NSA director _admitted_ that the mass surveillance is a _power grab._
> 
> So we won't know until the intelligence agencies actually show their cards ... and _reveal_ what evidence they've gathered.




http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-06/top-nsa-whistleblower-intelligence-agencies-did-spy-trump


----------



## luutzu

explod said:


> Trump would have the vibe on it alright.  J. Edgar Hoover started out in the 1920's as a library assistant.  He learnt to and set up an index system of those above him and gradually rose by using these dossiers to sort of put people in their place or out of his pathway up.  Soon rose to head the FBI, controlled six Presidents, had groups seized and never to be seen again.  This is the same FBI today.  Had a colleague study advanced detectve skills with them in the 80s so made a study of Hoover and the system in later years.  Kennedy defied the FBI and got his.  So the following makes me wonder:-
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-06/top-nsa-whistleblower-intelligence-agencies-did-spy-trump





Guess that's why he's giving them about a trillion a year to play with.

One of the lessons Machiavelli teach his prince was to find some power-hungry idiot, give him a nice title and lotsa power. Then order him to do your dirty work... then when the public are fed up with him, you then blame him for all the stuff, end him and make yourself the hero.


----------



## wayneL

Comment being shared around FaceAche at the moment:

I read this this morning and applaud the American who wrote it! 
	

		
			
		

		
	










I don't care who you voted for, at all!!! But this... this is what bothers me so badly
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
.....I keep seeing people post on how they are terrified, or scared? Well.. what are you scared of exactly? War? Because that's happening. School shootings? Because that's happening. Pipeline? That's been happening. Terrorism? Definitely alive and well. Going broke due to health insurance? Mm yes. Corruption throughout the system? Already there. Police officers being murdered? Yep, that's happening. Bullying? Check. Loss of jobs? We've got that on lock. A tanking economy. Yep. Being discriminated against for your religion, political views, sexual orientation, race? That's been going on. Rape, murder, violence, riots.. all going on and has been.
So tell me, what are you scared of that is not already happening basically everywhere? This isn't a Trump problem, this is a people problem. Y'all need to reevaluate your own selves..
Maybe America is a little too scared and a little too easily offended.
Quit being scared, crying around, offended by everything.. step up and do your part as an American, no, as a human being. Treat others with respect, help and encourage one another, raise your kids right, tell the truth, be a contributing member of society. Make sure your hands are clean, that's your job. Burning the American flag?
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
Get out of here with that, how about you do your job to make it a better place.
But right now, all I see is hate. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
It's disturbing, 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 and the ones with the most hate are being exactly what they claim to be against.
Copy and paste if you agree....this is common sense


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Comment being shared around FaceAche at the moment:
> 
> I read this this morning and applaud the American who wrote it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care who you voted for, at all!!! But this... this is what bothers me so badly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....I keep seeing people post on how they are terrified, or scared? Well.. what are you scared of exactly? War? Because that's happening. School shootings? Because that's happening. Pipeline? That's been happening. Terrorism? Definitely alive and well. Going broke due to health insurance? Mm yes. Corruption throughout the system? Already there. Police officers being murdered? Yep, that's happening. Bullying? Check. Loss of jobs? We've got that on lock. A tanking economy. Yep. Being discriminated against for your religion, political views, sexual orientation, race? That's been going on. Rape, murder, violence, riots.. all going on and has been.
> So tell me, what are you scared of that is not already happening basically everywhere? This isn't a Trump problem, this is a people problem. Y'all need to reevaluate your own selves..
> Maybe America is a little too scared and a little too easily offended.
> Quit being scared, crying around, offended by everything.. step up and do your part as an American, no, as a human being. Treat others with respect, help and encourage one another, raise your kids right, tell the truth, be a contributing member of society. Make sure your hands are clean, that's your job. Burning the American flag?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get out of here with that, how about you do your job to make it a better place.
> But right now, all I see is hate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's disturbing,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the ones with the most hate are being exactly what they claim to be against.
> Copy and paste if you agree....this is common sense





People are scared not because those bad things does exist before Trump. 

They're scared because Trump add fuel to all that.

So...

Worried about your healthcare? Repeal Obamacare, throw tens of millions out of health insurance, and will somehow give them "something much better". No, not universal healthcare like just about all the developed economies have, that's crazy. Something awesome, like go fark yourself, exercise and don't get sick.

Worried about pipelines? Hundreds of them have been leaking all over the US each year? You must be used to be by now so it's drill and pipe baby!

Worried about food and drug safety? Let's defund and get rid of many, many useless regulation. Speed up half-baked drugs so that everyone can enjoy the "miracle" of a dubious drug big pharma want to push onto the public to help the sick.

Some drugs that weren't tested properly and got unleashed on the market cause countless of newborn deformities and birth defects. Opps. 

Wall St doesn't need regulation. Why all the rules man. 

Wars getting you down and draining the national treasury? Here's an extra $54B to that half of all gov't spending. Gut the EPA... and ey, military generals can now drown and order raids on any country in the world without congress or presidential oversight. Just go and kill whoever looks funny, in any country.


Yea, Obama and the Democrats did a lot of the same stuff. That's why they're out and the public do not vote for them. 

How's Trump accelerating all of it is going to make voters live better? They'll like it more because Trump did the screwing?


----------



## basilio

*Another Trump tweet. Another Trump  lie.* 

Black and white. Complete misrepresentation of the evidence. Just dangerously crackers. This is bat xxxxx crazy.  What will be even more crazy will be seeing how many people will  understand and acknowledge the mistake/lie or just double down and say it has to true because the Liar-in-Chief said it.

Going on past performances this will be something he saw on Breibart or Fox.  So we can guess all of those readers will be sprouting  the same rubbish.

* Trump said Obama freed 122 'vicious prisoners' but actually it was only nine *
Trump tweeted an erroneous ‘fact’ on Tuesday, which appeared to mischaracterize a 2016 intelligence report tracking former Guantánamo Bay inmates

Donald Trump said on Tuesday that 122 “vicious prisoners” freed from Guantánamo Bay by Barack Obama had “returned to the battlefield”. In fact, the correct figure is nine.

The president appeared to be mischaracterizing a 2016 intelligence report tracking former inmates of the controversial prison who were confirmed to have “re-engaged in terrorism”.

The report, issued by the office of the director of national intelligence on 14 September 2016, said 113 former inmates released under President George W Bush had been confirmed to have re-engaged.

The report did contain the number 122. That number was the sum total of former Guantánamo inmates confirmed to have re-engaged in terrorism as of 15 July 2016.

But only nine of those suspects had been released since 22 January 2009, two days after Barack Obama’s inauguration. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/07/trump-guantanamo-bay-obama-tweet-prisoners


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> The report, issued by the office of the director of national intelligence on 14 September 2016, said 113 former inmates released under President George W Bush had been confirmed to have re-engaged.
> 
> The report did contain the number 122. That number was the sum total of former Guantánamo inmates confirmed to have re-engaged in terrorism as of 15 July 2016.
> 
> But only nine of those suspects had been released since 22 January 2009, two days after Barack Obama’s inauguration.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/07/trump-guantanamo-bay-obama-tweet-prisoners



So thanks to Trump, we know that 122 released guys..I am sexist here..are back at it again.Thanks Donald.
Another point of view on a lot of uncomfortable truth coming to the surface.


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> Quit being scared, crying around, offended by everything.. step up and do your part as an American, no, as a human being. *Treat others with respect, help and encourage one another,* raise your kids right, *tell the truth*, be a contributing member of society. *Make sure your hands are clean*, that's your job.




Is this in support of Donald Trump?  Oh dear....


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> Is this in support of Donald Trump?  Oh dear....




Breathtaking selective Quoting there junior. 

I don't see any overt Trump support in that, just pointing out that things will pretty much be as they always have been and for us plebeians to uphold better standards of morality and honesty.

....instead of disingenuous flim flammery and negative spin at every opportunity.


----------



## SirRumpole

*Donald Trump's presidency might be short-lived, because 'something's gotta give'*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...ency-could-be-short-lived-bond-market/8331454


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> *Donald Trump's presidency might be short-lived, because 'something's gotta give'*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...ency-could-be-short-lived-bond-market/8331454




Na, he's too much of a perfect idiot for the real power in America to let go of him. 

Though they're prefer a Bill Clinton or an Obama or a Reagan - nice speeches, same old shiet. Sometime they'll have to live with the uncouth Bush Jr. and Trump.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Na, he's too much of a perfect idiot for the real power in America to let go of him.
> 
> Though they're prefer a Bill Clinton or an Obama or a Reagan - nice speeches, same old shiet. Sometime they'll have to live with the uncouth Bush Jr. and Trump.




More Trump bashing.


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> Breathtaking selective Quoting there junior.
> 
> I don't see any overt Trump support in that, just pointing out that things will pretty much be as they always have been and for us plebeians to uphold better standards of morality and honesty.
> 
> ....instead of disingenuous flim flammery and negative spin at every opportunity.



 My negativity is only in relation to the Donald wayneL, I can't see any positives here.  Nothing but fear, division, bullying, and lie after lie from this man and his cronies.

I do, however think this current saga will eventually lead to a positive outcome for humankind.  If we must tolerate 4 years of having this incompetent a-hole running the show, americans will be desperate for positive change thereafter, I hope.  

This strong anti-immigration & protectionist theme will surely not last forever, as we live in a world that has thrived & prospered on free trade and movement of people between countries for so long.

For those who have not read The Rational Optimist, I think now is a good time.


----------



## SirRumpole

Junior said:


> My negativity is only in relation to the Donald wayneL, I can't see any positives here. Nothing but fear, division, bullying, and lie after lie from this man and his cronies.





It's a shame the the alternative candidates are as much or bigger a-holes than the incumbents in more countries than just the US.

Nick Xenophon excepted.


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> My negativity is only in relation to the Donald wayneL, I can't see any positives here.  Nothing but fear, division, bullying, and lie after lie from this man and his cronies.
> 
> I do, however think this current saga will eventually lead to a positive outcome for humankind.  If we must tolerate 4 years of having this incompetent a-hole running the show, americans will be desperate for positive change thereafter, I hope.
> 
> This strong anti-immigration & protectionist theme will surely not last forever, as we live in a world that has thrived & prospered on free trade and movement of people between countries for so long.
> 
> For those who have not read The Rational Optimist, I think now is a good time.




Stop romancing with yourself junior.......You are just another left wing Trump basher.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Stop romancing with yourself junior.......You are just another left wing Trump basher.




Free trade is not a leftist ideology.  I work in Financial Services, hardly a 'lefty' world.

I think your labelling is inaccurate.  You don't know me, man.


----------



## Knobby22

Now Republicans are in charge in all houses they can do something about the debt. Or maybe they could give the tax cuts and push out the time they try to balance the budget.
Good read from Mish.

https://mishtalk.com/2017/03/08/republican-debt-ceiling-shenanigans/#more-44569


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> More Trump bashing.




Pretty sure I bashed all presidents back to the 80s there.

Beside Trump beating up on illegals, Muslims and the Great Wall... what else do you like about Trump?


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Free trade is not a leftist ideology.  I work in Financial Services, hardly a 'lefty' world.
> 
> I think your labelling is inaccurate.  You don't know me, man.




You passed both those assertions through the Bolt world history and word filter? Indeed have you rec'd permission from Andrew to have an opinion at all?


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> Free trade is not a leftist ideology.  I work in Financial Services, hardly a 'lefty' world.
> 
> I think your labelling is inaccurate.  You don't know me, man.



I know quote a few in the financial services industry,  and have a few clients also.

All are quite leftist. None truly believe in laissez faire because half of them would be unemployed 

"Inner city trendies" ring a bell?


----------



## Junior

OK then, perhaps I am a 'left-wing trump basher'.  I've been called worse.


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> OK then, perhaps I am a 'left-wing trump basher'.  I've been called worse.



Just today,  i have been called both racist and sexist.


----------



## SirRumpole

Junior said:


> OK then, perhaps I am a 'left-wing trump basher'.  I've been called worse.




Being called a Left Wing Trump basher by a Right Wing Facist lover is no bad thing.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Just today,  i have been called both racist and sexist.




Who call you that Sifu. I shall avenge you! 

Come on Sifu, you're a bit... hmmm... what's the word when someone say they have friends who are X, and those X they know are all nice people, but other Xes are total bastards, all of them.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Who call you that Sifu. I shall avenge you!
> 
> Come on Sifu, you're a bit... hmmm... what's the word when someone say they have friends who are X, and those X they know are all nice people, but other Xes are total bastards, all of them.



I don't know. But that's not what I was implying and you know it.

Bit of a straw man there my disingenuous friend. 

The humorous thing is that you imagine your verbose transmogrification of facts and concepts is actually debate and convincing. 

It ain't. Sorry.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> I don't know. But that's not what I was implying and you know it.
> 
> Bit of a straw man there my disingenuous friend.
> 
> The humorous thing is that you imagine your verbose transmogrification of facts and concepts is actually debate and convincing.
> 
> It ain't. Sorry.





What's transmogrification of facts? Alternate facts? 

Seriously though, when it comes to real news, best to avoid the mainstream. ABC, BBC, PBS included.

If you have spare time, worth a read/watch of "Manufacturing Consent". Promise you would never look at any newspaper the same again.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Promise you would never look at any newspaper the same again.




I haven't looked at a newspaper for about 15 years, the paper version that is.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't looked at a newspaper for about 15 years, the paper version that is.




You having fun with me there SirR 

Print or digital, it's the same content. 

Heard some joke somewhere, not sure if it's true, but there's this Soviet delegation coming to the US to learn the ways of the capitalist pigs. They were shown around its great monuments and all that great democracy stuff.

At the end of the tour, they were asked by the Americans if they have any question.

The team leader rose up, says... We've been reading and watching your news over the past weeks, and all the opinions and news across all channels and media tell the same message your government wants to be told.

Back in the USSR, to get anywhere near this level of compliance, we'd have to pull nails and send a few journalists to the Gulag. 

What's your secret?


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> What's your secret?




Rupert.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Rupert.




Rupert brought it to a whole new level, worldwide. But it started as soon as the printing press was invented. Serious.

With the outbreak of the English Civil War, merchants backed Cromwell to establish parliament. Taking power from the Crown, pass it on to "the people" [free men]. 

With all the talks of no such thing as the Divine rights of King, we're all mortal, we should be free and not be governed. The merchants says, wait wait, hold on a bit you plebs. We're only supposed to depose the King, take power and rule in his place. So you plebs will still need to be rule, pay your taxes and labour for peanuts - just as god intended.

Can't really say that outright... so they set up a free press. Get the propaganda going. Get educated "intellectuals" on board, pay them a bit and they'll sing and dance about patriotic duties, moral value and our country, right or wrong... 

Fast forward to our more civilised era and it's the same old crap. 

Give sellout idiots a Noble Prize in Economics, give them a fancy title, a fairly good wage and watch how they bang on about the need to deregulate, freedom, free trade; How we all ought to not expect anything from our tax dollars; how taxes and gov't subsidies should go towards making the rich really really rich so that the rich then make the poor rich too.

Then there's the endless wars. Why we must spent billions a year on it at the expense of our domestic well being; how it's our patriotic duty to go kill and die for the country; and how it is perfectly normal that war profiteers can gouge all the cash they want.

Saw an interview with a former US marine who says how soldiers like him are no longer supplied by the gov't, but by private contractors. That a T-Shirt costs $50 where the same thing cost $5 at any shop; how a pair of boots costs $150 and does no more than a $50 ones. 

Won't find these kind of talks on the mainstream media.


----------



## Junior

luutzu said:


> Then there's the endless wars. Why we must spent billions a year on it at the expense of our domestic well being; how it's our patriotic duty to go kill and die for the country; and how it is perfectly normal that war profiteers can gouge all the cash they want.
> 
> Saw an interview with a former US marine who says how soldiers like him are no longer supplied by the gov't, but by private contractors. That a T-Shirt costs $50 where the same thing cost $5 at any shop; how a pair of boots costs $150 and does no more than a $50 ones.




The level of US military spending is abhorrent.  3x the amount China spends and equivalent to the total spend of the next 8 biggest spending nations combined (or up to the next 13 biggest, depending which stats you use).

Imagine what could be achieved with those funds if they halved spending, for example?  Universal free/affordable healthcare would be easily achievable, for example.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't looked at a newspaper for about 15 years, the paper version that is.




I did the other day and wish I hadn't. Still a heavily biased, albeit trashy vehicle for the LNP up here.  I can only imagine how many fools get their views from rags.


----------



## noco

Tisme said:


> I did the other day and wish I hadn't. Still a heavily biased, albeit trashy vehicle for the LNP up here.  I can only imagine how many fools get their views from rags.




OFF TOPIC.


----------



## luutzu

Junior said:


> The level of US military spending is abhorrent.  3x the amount China spends and equivalent to the total spend of the next 8 biggest spending nations combined (or up to the next 13 biggest, depending which stats you use).
> 
> Imagine what could be achieved with those funds if they halved spending, for example?  Universal free/affordable healthcare would be easily achievable, for example.




Yea, it is mind boggling. 

Heard that the Pentagon get that $600B. But if you add budget for Homeland Security, Intelligence, Weapons R&D through their Energy Dept. and total comes to about $900B+ per year.

No one in power seem to ever ask how they're going to afford that.

I think Sanders was saying how for about $60B a year, the US could give free tertiary education to its people. That's an investment that pay dividends in higher income, more skilled workforce for that future economy. 

Won't even need to give education away for free, just do our HECS system and loan it out. 

Can't afford that but a $54B increase in Pentagon budget is one swoop is not a problem.

Hard to believe but it's a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Being called a Left Wing Trump basher by a Right Wing Facist lover is no bad thing.







Unlike the Victorian Government who tear up contracts costing the tax payers $1 billion plus, Howard was an honourable man and did the right thing by taking on a mess Labor left behind


SirRumpole said:


> Being called a Left Wing Trump basher by a Right Wing Facist lover is no bad thing.




Maybe this one is off topic.

But Rumpy do you really know the true definition of a Fascist?

Or do you just use it as a branding iron who is not a left wing socialist like you.

Fascism is more like Communism which closer to the Fabian Society which is really Socialism.

Every thing owned by the state.
No freedom of speech.

Reading   the link will  give you a full description and after having read it, can you now brand me or the Liberal Party with the word Fascist?


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascism


----------



## basilio

Why does Trump LIE with every breath he takes ?? Perhaps this analysis offers the most cogent picture of where Donald Trump is trying to take America.

* 'Trump lies all the time': Bernie Sanders indicts president's assault on democracy *
*Exclusive*: the former presidential candidate suggested that Donald Trump’s false claims serve a purpose – to push the United States toward authoritarianism


The Resistance Now: Sign up for weekly news updates about the movement
Bernie Sanders on the resistance movement in Trump’s America – video


*Shares*
5272
 
* Comments*
 294 
Ed Pilkington in Washington


Friday 10 March 2017 23.00 AEDT   Last modified on Saturday 11 March 2017 11.00 AEDT

Bernie Sanders has launched a withering attack on Donald Trump, accusing him of being a pathological liar who is driving America towards authoritarianism.

In an interview with the Guardian, the independent senator from Vermont, who waged a spirited campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2016, gave a bleak appraisal of the new White House and its intentions.

He warned that Trump’s most contentious outbursts against the media, judiciary and other pillars of American public life amounted to a conscious assault on democracy.

“Trump lies all of the time and I think that is not an accident, there is a reason for that. He lies in order to undermine the foundations of American democracy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/10/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-lies-democracy


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Why does Trump LIE with every breath he takes ?? Perhaps this analysis offers the most cogent picture of where Donald Trump is trying to take America.
> 
> * 'Trump lies all the time': Bernie Sanders indicts president's assault on democracy *
> *Exclusive*: the former presidential candidate suggested that Donald Trump’s false claims serve a purpose – to push the United States toward authoritarianism
> 
> 
> The Resistance Now: Sign up for weekly news updates about the movement
> Bernie Sanders on the resistance movement in Trump’s America – video
> 
> 
> *Shares*
> 5272
> 
> * Comments*
> 294
> Ed Pilkington in Washington
> 
> 
> Friday 10 March 2017 23.00 AEDT   Last modified on Saturday 11 March 2017 11.00 AEDT
> 
> Bernie Sanders has launched a withering attack on Donald Trump, accusing him of being a pathological liar who is driving America towards authoritarianism.
> 
> In an interview with the Guardian, the independent senator from Vermont, who waged a spirited campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2016, gave a bleak appraisal of the new White House and its intentions.
> 
> He warned that Trump’s most contentious outbursts against the media, judiciary and other pillars of American public life amounted to a conscious assault on democracy.
> 
> “Trump lies all of the time and I think that is not an accident, there is a reason for that. He lies in order to undermine the foundations of American democracy.”
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/10/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-lies-democracy




Trump lies all the time......Just more propganda from the left wing socialist of the Democrats........Just as it in Australia where the Green/Labor socialist coalition control the ABC, the same thing is happening in the USA........The moment Trump complains about it he is accused of killing democracy...What a farce.

Well, I have news for you lefties, Trump can't be too bad after all as the USA economy is starting to rebound since he took office.

Maybe you will stop this Trump bashing for a while.


https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/us-economy-adds-235-000-033950332.html

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/us-jobs-machine-keeps-stock-122448476.html


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> But Rumpy do you really know the true definition of a Fascist?




People have their own definitions, but mine is a government led by a single all powerful leader who is always right and where penalties are imposed for opposition to it.

So yes, Stalinism or Maoism could be called facism, but so could Trumpism if his ego makes him assume that he is always right and those who say different are "enemies of the people".


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> People have their own definitions, but mine is a government led by a single all powerful leader who is always right and where penalties are imposed for opposition to it.
> 
> So yes, Stalinism or Maoism could be called facism, but so could Trumpism if his ego makes him assume that he is always right and those who say different are "enemies of the people".




You must confess though, he is a strong leader when you look at the links I provided in my post #1543.....

It is a shame you lefties can't accept defeat of the socialist Obama Democrats  in the US and start to sit up and take notice Trump must be doing something right.

Trump is not a fascist so put your fascist  branding iron to rest...You are way off beat.

Stop bashing Trump...Give him a fair go mate.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Trump is not a fascist so put your fascist branding iron to rest...You are way off beat.




Obama is not a socialist either just because he wanted health care to be affordable, so put away your socialist branding iron, Obama is a decent man.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> Trump lies all the time......Just more propganda from the left wing socialist of the Democrats........Just as it in Australia where the Green/Labor socialist coalition control the ABC, the same thing is happening in the USA........The moment Trump complains about it he is accused of killing democracy...What a farce.
> 
> Well, I have news for you lefties, Trump can't be too bad after all as the USA economy is starting to rebound since he took office.
> 
> Maybe you will stop this Trump bashing for a while.
> 
> 
> https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/us-economy-adds-235-000-033950332.html
> 
> https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/us-jobs-machine-keeps-stock-122448476.html




Noco, are you saying Trump does not lie, or is not a pathological liar?  When he says something which is completely contrary to readily available evidence, do you not consider this to be a lie?  Do you think this is a desirable trait?  To knowingly and intentionally lie and mislead millions of people to further your own personal cause?  Or is it an irrelevant and unimportant trait?  Do you not value honesty and consistency?  What would he need to do or say, for you to consider him to be a dishonest person?

This is not propaganda, Trump blatantly lies, on camera, every week.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/en...stration-lies-100_us_58ac7a0fe4b02a1e7dac3ca6

I find it laughable that Trump is being credited by his supporters as having caused renewed strength in the US economy and stockmarket, when he has been in power for a matter of weeks.  This shows total ignorance as to the way an economy operates, and the long lead time between policies being announced, implemented and then having measurable impact in the real world.  Stocks are up because investors believe Trump will spend vast vast $$ on tax cuts with no regard for the federal budget.  Good news for the corporate world in the short/medium term.  Completely unsustainable in the long term.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Obama is not a socialist either just because he wanted health care to be affordable, so put away your socialist branding iron, Obama is a decent man.




Says you but most of know different about Obama and Hilary Clinton.


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> Noco, are you saying Trump does not lie, or is not a pathological liar?  When he says something which is completely contrary to readily available evidence, do you not consider this to be a lie?  Do you think this is a desirable trait?  To knowingly and intentionally lie and mislead millions of people to further your own personal cause?  Or is it an irrelevant and unimportant trait?  Do you not value honesty and consistency?  What would he need to do or say, for you to consider him to be a dishonest person?
> 
> This is not propaganda, Trump blatantly lies, on camera, every week.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/en...stration-lies-100_us_58ac7a0fe4b02a1e7dac3ca6
> 
> I find it laughable that Trump is being credited by his supporters as having caused renewed strength in the US economy and stockmarket, when he has been in power for a matter of weeks.  This shows total ignorance as to the way an economy operates, and the long lead time between policies being announced, implemented and then having measurable impact in the real world.  Stocks are up because investors believe Trump will spend vast vast $$ on tax cuts with no regard for the federal budget.  Good news for the corporate world in the short/medium term.  Completely unsustainable in the long term.




You are so pessimistic aren't you.

Just goes to show you Junior what a good man can do in such a short time.

And of course Obama and Hillary Clinton with halos around their heads don't lie.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> You are so pessimistic aren't you.
> 
> Just goes to show you Junior what a good man can do in such a short time.
> 
> And of course Obama and Hillary Clinton with halos around their heads don't lie.




What has Trump done so far that's good for the Americans, the economy?

You do realise "his" new "American Healthcare Act" will throw tens of millions out of healthcare coverage right?

It will cut Medicaid - a watered down version of our Medicare, except it's only for the very poor and only assist them with about two grands a year.

That's going to be cut. On the poorest of Americans.

For those who's lucky enough to afford some $17,000+ in health insurance a year, it's going to get a lot higher. The elderly are no longer capped at twice the average younger person in insurance... Insurers can now charge the seniors up to 5 times more than they would those in their 20s.

Family with kids can have their kids on the same insurance policy until 26, just like under ObamaCare... just now that comes with a much higher insurance premium.

All of these while it cut about $600M in taxes for the top 0.01%. They no longer need to pay higher tax for healthcare.

Obama did the insurer's biddings. But at least 20 more million Americans are being covered. Trump's proposal will screw all the poor up.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Obama is not a socialist either just because he wanted health care to be affordable, so put away your socialist branding iron, Obama is a decent man.




Make no mistake, Obama is a socialist.......Just look at the debt he left behind, that is the true form  of a socialist......To convert a country to socialism (communism) you must first ruin their economy and this is consistent in Federal Labor and all the Australian states run by Labor.

Next step take good control of the media as happened in the USA and Australia....Make sure you have the tools to criticize a liberal Government and promote your propaganda to the brain washed naive.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> What has Trump done so far that's good for the Americans, the economy?
> 
> You do realise "his" new "American Healthcare Act" will throw tens of millions out of healthcare coverage right?
> 
> It will cut Medicaid - a watered down version of our Medicare, except it's only for the very poor and only assist them with about two grands a year.
> 
> That's going to be cut. On the poorest of Americans.
> 
> For those who's lucky enough to afford some $17,000+ in health insurance a year, it's going to get a lot higher. The elderly are no longer capped at twice the average younger person in insurance... Insurers can now charge the seniors up to 5 times more than they would those in their 20s.
> 
> Family with kids can have their kids on the same insurance policy until 26, just like under ObamaCare... just now that comes with a much higher insurance premium.
> 
> All of these while it cut about $600M in taxes for the top 0.01%. They no longer need to pay higher tax for healthcare.
> 
> Obama did the insurer's biddings. But at least 20 more million Americans are being covered. Trump's proposal will screw all the poor up.




 Do you know what Trump has in mind to replace Obama Care?......Do you know what his health care act involves?......20 more million Americans will still be covered because if you are up to speed with proceedings in will take 2 to 3 years to make any change...Trump is not that stupid to chop it off overnight.

Now get real Luu.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Do you know what Trump has in mind to replace Obama Care?......Do you know what his health care act involves?......20 more million Americans will still be covered because if you are up to speed with proceedings in will take 2 to 3 years to make any change...Trump is not that stupid to chop it off overnight.
> 
> Now get real Luu.




Yea, all Americans will be covered - if they're all rich and could afford $17k+ a year.

I heard the lowest, the most basic, of insurance runs a person $500 a month.

The average American earns about $US40K a year noco. How many do you think could afford $17K for their family's insurance?

So how is Trump's plan better? Because it will because he said so?

You know who pays for Trump and all American politicians healthcare? The American public - through a "socialised" medical programme like what we have here. i.e., those politicians get sick, the public will pick up the tab.

How do they want the public to pay for their own healthcare? Don't buy that iPhone or that flat screen and pay for it themselves. No commie red healthcare - that's just not American.

What a bunch of a holes.

Trump is great, awesome. Because he want to spend at least $20 billion on a stupid wall? There are no borders and walls there already?

He's going to cut Medicaid to the poorest of the poor Americans. You know what that mean? It mean millions who now receive some basic healthcare assistance will have to choose between feeding their family or buying medicine. 

And given the executive orders to permit oil pipeline, unlimited fracking, removing farm and industrial run-offs regulation. That's mass murder of his own citizens noco. 


Seriously, I'm amazed you think that a person who lies, cheats, beat up on the weak... that that kind of "leader" will make anything great again. That someone a douche like that gives two shiets about the ordinary working people.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Yea, all Americans will be covered - if they're all rich and could afford $17k+ a year.
> 
> I heard the lowest, the most basic, of insurance runs a person $500 a month.
> 
> The average American earns about $US40K a year noco. How many do you think could afford $17K for their family's insurance?
> 
> So how is Trump's plan better? Because it will because he said so?
> 
> You know who pays for Trump and all American politicians healthcare? The American public - through a "socialised" medical programme like what we have here. i.e., those politicians get sick, the public will pick up the tab.
> 
> How do they want the public to pay for their own healthcare? Don't buy that iPhone or that flat screen and pay for it themselves. No commie red healthcare - that's just not American.
> 
> What a bunch of a holes.
> 
> Trump is great, awesome. Because he want to spend at least $20 billion on a stupid wall? There are no borders and walls there already?
> 
> He's going to cut Medicaid to the poorest of the poor Americans. You know what that mean? It mean millions who now receive some basic healthcare assistance will have to choose between feeding their family or buying medicine.
> 
> And given the executive orders to permit oil pipeline, unlimited fracking, removing farm and industrial run-offs regulation. That's mass murder of his own citizens noco.
> 
> 
> Seriously, I'm amazed you think that a person who lies, cheats, beat up on the weak... that that kind of "leader" will make anything great again. That someone a douche like that gives two shiets about the ordinary working people.




Luu, you are just Trump bashing for the sake of it because it still sticks in your gizzet that Hillary Clinton
lost...He does not need you to do that because there are plenty of left wing media in the USA doing it for you.

Why can't you show a little patience before jumping the gun?

In your twisted mind, does Trump have any good points?......The majority of the USA think he is OK so why don't you leave it at that?


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Luu, you are just Trump bashing for the sake of it because it still sticks in your gizzet that Hillary Clinton
> lost...He does not need you to do that because there are plenty of left wing media in the USA doing it for you.
> 
> Why can't you show a little patience before jumping the gun?
> 
> In your twisted mind, does Trump have any good points?......The majority of the USA think he is OK so why don't you leave it at that?





I never liked Hillary Clinton. Didn't like Bill Clinton either after I read a few real journalist's and historian's work on his administration.

In fact, don't like Obama either. 

----

Only about 1/4 of Americans voted for Trump. So that's not a majority.

Of those 1/4, how many do you reckon are protest vote against Hillary?

I've never bashed or thought low of Trump's voters. I see why they do it. Just feel they've been duped, yet again.

----

Trump's good point is that he immediately wake Americans up. They've been protesting him pretty much weekly since he took office. And that's a great thing for democracy.

Just look at Trump's latest pick to head the FDA - food and drug administration.

It's a guy loved by all big pharma... why? Because he lobbied for them. He own biotech companies, a partner in private equity.

Sounds like a real public servant who knows and care about drug safety.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> I never liked Hillary Clinton. Didn't like Bill Clinton either after I read a few real journalist's and historian's work on his administration.
> 
> In fact, don't like Obama either.
> 
> ----
> 
> Only about 1/4 of Americans voted for Trump. So that's not a majority.
> 
> Of those 1/4, how many do you reckon are protest vote against Hillary?
> 
> I've never bashed or thought low of Trump's voters. I see why they do it. Just feel they've been duped, yet again.
> 
> ----
> 
> Trump's good point is that he immediately wake Americans up. They've been protesting him pretty much weekly since he took office. And that's a great thing for democracy.
> 
> Just look at Trump's latest pick to head the FDA - food and drug administration.
> 
> It's a guy loved by all big pharma... why? Because he lobbied for them. He own biotech companies, a partner in private equity.
> 
> Sounds like a real public servant who knows and care about drug safety.




I believe your mind has let your imagination run wild again.......1/4 of the vote...now that is exaggeration.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> In your twisted mind, does Trump have any good points?




He was in a really good movie one time.


----------



## noco

Junior said:


> He was in a really good movie one time.



So Trump was walking down the one of New York's main streets crowded around by body guards and he came across this lost boy?...Don't you think one of the body guards would have taken care of that lost boy?
If the boy was lost in the White House, how did he get in there?

What a load of crap......You are now getting really desperate to stoop that low to discredit Trump.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> He was in a really good movie one time.



Was that H.O. Lost in NY ?


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I believe your mind has let your imagination run wild again.......1/4 of the vote...now that is exaggeration.




About half of eligible voters did not vote.

Of the other half that bothered to vote, slightly less than half of that [i.e. 1/4 of the entire eligible voting population], voted for Trump.

Clinton won by about 3M vote. So if we were to go by popularity, maybe she ought to be in power.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> About half of eligible voters did not vote.
> 
> Of the other half that bothered to vote, slightly less than half of that [i.e. 1/4 of the entire eligible voting population], voted for Trump.
> 
> Clinton won by about 3M vote. So if we were to go by popularity, maybe she ought to be in power.



But American politics does not work that way...Thank goodness for America Clinton did not win.

off topic.
But the SA Liberal leader had a 52.5 % of the popular vote at the last election but Jay Weatheril became Premier....Perhaps he should not have been Premier.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> But American politics does not work that way...Thank goodness for America Clinton did not win.
> 
> off topic.
> But the SA Liberal leader had a 52.5 % of the popular vote at the last election but Jay Weatheril became Premier....Perhaps he should not have been Premier.




Well, it just show that the system don't care too much about democracy, one person one vote.

But still, to say that Trump won because the American people voted for him is just living in Trump's alternate universe.


----------



## luutzu

Wow. The US want Cambodia to repay it $500M in debt.

Yea, we dropped 500,000 tonnes of bomb indiscrimately on your country in just one year, killing an estimated half a million civilian; wiped out your farmland, animals, people... but you must forget all that history and focus on the time we send over a few shipment of maze for $250M, plus interests. 

Seriously, can't make this up.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/fury-in...of-millions-in-war-debts-20170311-guvxyp.html


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Well, it just show that the system don't care too much about democracy, one person one vote.
> 
> But still, to say that Trump won because the American people voted for him is just living in Trump's alternate universe.




What ever.....Did you know Trump is the President of the USA?...Yes he is...Now isn't that great news.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> What ever.....Did you know Trump is the President of the USA?...Yes he is...Now isn't that great news.




You haven't been following the news. And News Corp. is not really news. 

His policies is going to send the world into another Great Depression. And that's if we're lucky.

If unlucky, there'll be war with China and possibly Russia. 

And that's if the climate denial and environmental deregulation haven't yet kill a bunch of [poor] people [first].


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> You haven't been following the news. And News Corp. is not really news.
> 
> His policies is going to send the world into another Great Depression. And that's if we're lucky.
> 
> If unlucky, there'll be war with China and possibly Russia.
> 
> And that's if the climate denial and environmental deregulation haven't yet kill a bunch of [poor] people [first].




 And what do to base your extreme rhetoric on this time?

The USA has a constitution when i comes to the election of a President and Trump won that election in accordance with the US constitution.

The best thing he can do is pull out of the UN and tear up that fictitious Paris Climate Change agreement.

The US contributes 22% of the UN finances which is riddled with rorting and run by a bunch of hill billies.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> And what do to base your extreme rhetoric on this time?
> 
> The USA has a constitution when i comes to the election of a President and Trump won that election in accordance with the US constitution.
> 
> The best thing he can do is pull out of the UN and tear up that fictitious Paris Climate Change agreement.
> 
> The US contributes 22% of the UN finances which is riddled with rorting and run by a bunch of hill billies.




How do you break an economy; how do you cause a financial crash?

You deregulate it. You give free reign to  the big boys and watch how they bring down the temple.

It happened before noco. Will happen again. 

-------

What's with you and the UN? dam hippies, wanting to bring awareness to famine, war crimes, climate change and its impact on poor brown people with no place to run and no A/C to switch on.

Anyway noco, I don't want to be rude because you're my grandparents age and Western value do get the better of me sometime. 

Dam stupid kid, talking back to their elders, laughing at their Feng Shui stuff. Sending them to get educated and they come back challenging your beliefs.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> How do you break an economy; how do you cause a financial crash?
> 
> You deregulate it. You give free reign to  the big boys and watch how they bring down the temple.
> 
> It happened before noco. Will happen again.
> 
> -------
> 
> What's with you and the UN? dam hippies, wanting to bring awareness to famine, war crimes, climate change and its impact on poor brown people with no place to run and no A/C to switch on.
> 
> Anyway noco, I don't want to be rude because you're my grandparents age and Western value do get the better of me sometime.
> 
> Dam stupid kid, talking back to their elders, laughing at their Feng Shui stuff. Sending them to get educated and they come back challenging your beliefs.




How to ruin the economy of a country is a trait only know to the socialist in politics like the USA Democrats and the Green/Labor socialist coalition in Australia......Just look at their history....Look at the debt Obama left behind...Look at the debt Rudd/Gillard/ Rudd left behind.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> How do you break an economy; how do you cause a financial crash?
> 
> You deregulate it. You give free reign to  the big boys and watch how they bring down the temple.
> 
> It happened before noco. Will happen again.



No, you have a normal business cycle instead of propping up economies with artificial constructs with $900 cheques, baby bonuses and first buyer grants and pseudo Keynesianism.

Call it boom/bust cycle if you will, but it is ultimately healthier than kicking the can down the road for a right royal catastrophe. That is what is coming Grasshopper. Perhaps not soon, but eventually.


----------



## noco

Trump must be doing something right to have unemployment down to 4.7% in such a large population......I reckon Turnbull would sacrifice his right agate for 4.7% unemployment. 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...7/news-story/8c983754b953eb59403818251a419def


----------



## Tisme

noco said:


> Trump must be doing something right to have unemployment down to 4.7% in such a large population......I reckon Turnbull would sacrifice his right agate for 4.7% unemployment.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...7/news-story/8c983754b953eb59403818251a419def




No biggy for USA  it seems:


----------



## Junior

Tisme said:


> No biggy for USA  it seems:



What happened in November 2016?  The unemployment rate was even lower under Obama than it is now under Trump.  Fake News!  Fake News!


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> What happened in November 2016?  The unemployment rate was even lower under Obama than it is now under Trump.  Fake News!  Fake News!




Did Donald announce his was going to win or something?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> No biggy for USA  it seems:





Just define non-unemployed as those being employed for a year or so and gave up on looking.

Exclude them from the list and it'll be beautiful.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> No, you have a normal business cycle instead of propping up economies with artificial constructs with $900 cheques, baby bonuses and first buyer grants and pseudo Keynesianism.
> 
> Call it boom/bust cycle if you will, but it is ultimately healthier than kicking the can down the road for a right royal catastrophe. That is what is coming Grasshopper. Perhaps not soon, but eventually.




Keynesian economics does work. Been proven since WW2.

Regulation keep the economy and its infrastructure... regulated. Noticed how when the New Deal banking regulation in the US were in place, up until the late 1970s, there were no financial market crashes? After that there's one big one every few years?

The next one's coming, and it'll be bigger, better than ever. Believe me. Tremendous 

------

All countries are doing Keynesian economics Sifu, just a bastardisation of it.

That instead of funding projects and industries that benefit the many, they fund projects that pays big corporations handsomely, give diddly to the small and local business owners; they further hand cash to the rich instead of passing it to the poor who will spend it, locally.

It's perverse, and it does not work.


The GFC costs Americans about $5trillion directly in their savings/pensions; the bailouts that follow costs another $16T. When it's head you win and tail "the public" give you all the money you need, what's not to like right?

Unless there's a revolution or something.

Look around the world. The Arab Spring uprising occur soon after the GFC. The fact that the coalition of the willing are fighting 7, expanding directly into all of them now - boots on the ground... maybe the terrorists are rising because dictators can't hold them down too well anymore.

That and with half the population poor, infrastructure scoring an average D+, healthcare unaffordable by most... try giving trillions away again and see if they've ran out of Latinos and Muslims to blame. It'd be scary if they start turning against the Jews bankers again.


----------



## Knobby22

Yes. 
The countries are doing aren't doing Keynsian economics correctly.
What should happen is that in good times the government saves money and builds a surplus.
In bad times they kick start the economy by giving money to ordinary people. 

Instead they build up debt then print money and give it to banks. All wrong. And wonder why it doesn't work well.


----------



## luutzu

American poverty.

We're trying real hard to copy it.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Keynesian economics does work. Been proven since WW2.
> 
> Regulation keep the economy and its infrastructure... regulated. Noticed how when the New Deal banking regulation in the US were in place, up until the late 1970s, there were no financial market crashes? After that there's one big one every few years?
> 
> The next one's coming, and it'll be bigger, better than ever. Believe me. Tremendous
> 
> ------
> 
> All countries are doing Keynesian economics Sifu, just a bastardisation of it.
> 
> That instead of funding projects and industries that benefit the many, they fund projects that pays big corporations handsomely, give diddly to the small and local business owners; they further hand cash to the rich instead of passing it to the poor who will spend it, locally.
> 
> It's perverse, and it does not work.
> 
> 
> The GFC costs Americans about $5trillion directly in their savings/pensions; the bailouts that follow costs another $16T. When it's head you win and tail "the public" give you all the money you need, what's not to like right?
> 
> Unless there's a revolution or something.
> 
> Look around the world. The Arab Spring uprising occur soon after the GFC. The fact that the coalition of the willing are fighting 7, expanding directly into all of them now - boots on the ground... maybe the terrorists are rising because dictators can't hold them down too well anymore.
> 
> That and with half the population poor, infrastructure scoring an average D+, healthcare unaffordable by most... try giving trillions away again and see if they've ran out of Latinos and Muslims to blame. It'd be scary if they start turning against the Jews bankers again.




Ahhh Grasshopper, you apparently didn't see my use of the term !!!!***>>>*pseudo*<<<***!!! Keynesianism to imply exactly that it has not been applied faithfully.

I will concede that the true vine has a chance of success in the medium term, but there is a number of opinions that even the strict religious observation of Keynes theory cannot work indefinately https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sou...pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Keynesianism+doomed+to+fail&*

I agree with them.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Ahhh Grasshopper, you apparently didn't see my use of the term !!!!***>>>*pseudo*<<<***!!! Keynesianism to imply exactly that it has not been applied faithfully.
> 
> I will concede that the true vine has a chance of success in the medium term, but there is a number of opinions that even the strict religious observation of Keynes theory cannot work indefinately https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sou...pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Keynesianism+doomed+to+fail&*
> 
> I agree with them.




Just because you agree with them does not make them right Sifu.

Why wouldn't Keynesian economics not work in the long term? If anything, it works too well. It makes the masses too well fed and well educated that they start to question and demand things. Things like civil rights, democracy, environmental protection, end to imperial wars. Can't have that.

Look at Nazi Germany. It was a wreck after WW1. Thanks in all parts to the Allied and its push for Austerity to punish and plunder Germany.

Hitler came to power, re-industrialised Germany - putting people to work, building infrastructures and war machines; recruit soldiers; set up a few concentration camps... it's putting people to work waging wars and endless military conquests.

That kind of Keynesian stimulus didn't end well. It does, in the short term, bring about full employment, technological advances and a whole lot of new backyard to bury people under. 

Contrast that to the US during and after WW2 under FDR's New Deal. 

Massive infrastructure projects; free education for all; free higher education for returning GIs and modest fees for other students. Some sort of welfare and safety net etc. etc.

It results in the poor getting a decent job that pays for that American dream; it enable a more educated populace; more skilled labourers; more equal society... and what's more, the rich got a whole lot richer too.


Should look up how the "Chicago Boys" - Friedman and his NeoLiberal gang - was sent around the world to wreck those economies. From Argentina to Russia, their advice was to privatise all national assets, giving it to a handful of friends and relatives; stuff the rest of the people. Done.

That's not new. Been done since ever. And it always lead to a bunch of farmers marching to the gates and chop a few heads of states off.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Just because you agree with them does not make them right Sifu.
> 
> Why wouldn't Keynesian economics not work in the long term? If anything, it works too well. It makes the masses too well fed and well educated that they start to question and demand things. Things like civil rights, democracy, environmental protection, end to imperial wars. Can't have that.
> 
> Look at Nazi Germany. It was a wreck after WW1. Thanks in all parts to the Allied and its push for Austerity to punish and plunder Germany.
> 
> Hitler came to power, re-industrialised Germany - putting people to work, building infrastructures and war machines; recruit soldiers; set up a few concentration camps... it's putting people to work waging wars and endless military conquests.
> 
> That kind of Keynesian stimulus didn't end well. It does, in the short term, bring about full employment, technological advances and a whole lot of new backyard to bury people under.
> 
> Contrast that to the US during and after WW2 under FDR's New Deal.
> 
> Massive infrastructure projects; free education for all; free higher education for returning GIs and modest fees for other students. Some sort of welfare and safety net etc. etc.
> 
> It results in the poor getting a decent job that pays for that American dream; it enable a more educated populace; more skilled labourers; more equal society... and what's more, the rich got a whole lot richer too.
> 
> 
> Should look up how the "Chicago Boys" - Friedman and his NeoLiberal gang - was sent around the world to wreck those economies. From Argentina to Russia, their advice was to privatise all national assets, giving it to a handful of friends and relatives; stuff the rest of the people. Done.
> 
> That's not new. Been done since ever. And it always lead to a bunch of farmers marching to the gates and chop a few heads of states off.



Well,   your assertion that Keynesian economic theory works is no better,  because the pure theory has never been faithfully applied.

In addition,  let's define "works".

I can't find a cite quickly (horses to save, you understand), but iirc, Keynes himself conceded his theory cannot work long term.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Well,   your assertion that Keynesian economic theory works is no better,  because the pure theory has never been faithfully applied.
> 
> In addition,  let's define "works".
> 
> I can't find a cite quickly (horses to save, you understand), but iirc, Keynes himself conceded his theory cannot work long term.




Yes, we should define what is meant by "works". 

Are the aims of gov't policies to lift the masses up and out of poverty; or are they meant to enrich the ruling elite, suppress democratic rights and leave the running of the states to "responsible men" of destiny.


Keynes theory was meant to be a stimulus to reduce the impact of economic recession. As stimulus goes, it's meant to be short lived and not as an on-going policy.

So when an economy is in a recession, the gov't ought to borrow or print money, fund projects to put most people to work. Their work build infrastructure, bring services to the community; also put money into their pockets. 

Those money in turn create demand; demand create incentives to increase production and supply; that in turn increase employment... through all these, taxes are collected to repay those debts and reduce those money supplies. 

Win/Win.

BUT....

Why all the trouble when you can just give money to the rich and corporations, they make money, they invest those money overseas, hire accountants and tax minimise the heck out of profit they can't stash offshore. 

Then as the population earn less and less, they become more desperate; desperate workers don't ask for raises and safety gears and nice work environment; scared and desperate workers don't have time to question state policies.


----------



## wayneL

Such is how dem socialists work Grasshopper.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Such is how dem socialists work Grasshopper.




Be less cryptic Sifu. I said a lot of nonsense up there.

Socialism, Capitalism... the term's been hijacked.

In a society there's only two class of people: The ruler and the ruled. The master and the slave.

Those who own everything is the Master. Everyone else work and owned by them.

Those with useful "education" get to serve at higher levels and be more generously rewarded; Those with less education get to become politicians.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ha!






Pretty much same BS here too.


----------



## noco

Trembling Hand said:


> Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much same BS here too.




Just more socialist left wing Trump bashing....The left wing socialists control the media just as they do here in Aus.

Do you know what his health care policy is after he revamps Obama Care?


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Just more socialist left wing Trump bashing....The left wing socialists control the media just as they do here in Aus.
> 
> Do you know what his health care policy is after he revamps Obama Care?




It's not healthcare, it's "wealthCare". You know, caring for the rich.

What's wrong with right-wingers noco? A multi-billionaire racist prick like Trump, proposing a "healthcare" bill that will kick 14M Americans off of health insurance, removing any subsidy to the poorest who cannot now afford any kind of insurance; jack up the insurance costs of people aged 65+ on $25,000 wage from the current $1,700 a year in insurance to some $16,000.

All this while giving $600 BILLION in tax cuts over 10 years to the richest of Americans [top 0.1%]...

all in one single bill....


and you still think Trump is a man of the common people? 

wtf?


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> It's not healthcare, it's "wealthCare". You know, caring for the rich.
> 
> What's wrong with right-wingers noco? A multi-billionaire racist prick like Trump, proposing a "healthcare" bill that will kick 14M Americans off of health insurance, removing any subsidy to the poorest who cannot now afford any kind of insurance; jack up the insurance costs of people aged 65+ on $25,000 wage from the current $1,700 a year in insurance to some $16,000.
> 
> All this while giving $600 BILLION in tax cuts over 10 years to the richest of Americans [top 0.1%]...
> 
> all in one single bill....
> 
> 
> and you still think Trump is a man of the common people?
> 
> wtf?




Under Obama Care people would be paying another 25% more.

Guess you will have to wait and see Trump's new policy....In the meantime Obama Care will remain for at least another 2 years.

http://www.themainewire.com/2017/01/trump-gop-lawmakers-planning-obamacare-repeal/


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Under Obama Care people would be paying another 25% more.
> 
> Guess you will have to wait and see Trump's new policy....In the meantime Obama Care will remain for at least another 2 years.
> 
> http://www.themainewire.com/2017/01/trump-gop-lawmakers-planning-obamacare-repeal/




If the WealthCare bill goes through, it'll immediately repeal ObamaCare. Throwing some 14M out of insurance by next year and an estimated 20M+ by 2020 [from memory].

ObamaCare is a piece of sellout too. It does allow Insurers to price gouge like that 25% increase. 

But it does do some minor good to the poor. Like not giving the 0.1% richest American a bloody $60B a year tax cut; not cutting back Medicaid that's helping the very poor and elderly.

Trump's bs bill remove those minor niceties and pump up the worst aspect of it.

If you're an elderly American noco, getting some $25K a year in income and instead of paying a max of $1.7K in insurance you'll soon be paying $16K... that's reasonable?


This is why you don't elect racist a holes who beat up on the weak [and non-White] people. Once you [White] people are OK with that, those racist baffoon will turn that fist on "their own" too. 

Yes, people like Trump and Hanson... who have no time to look into the nuances of a terrorist or an innocent Muslim will, once they beat up all Muslims, come to look at the finer details of whether a poor person is poor due to circumstances beyond their control rather than being poor because they're just lazy drunkards with too many kids and serve them right to be poor.


----------



## howardbandy

Greetings --

I am a US citizen living in the US.  The US is already far, far behind the world's leading countries in caring for the health of its citizens.  My wife and I are reasonably affluent and have reasonably good health care.  But many Americans do not, and removing the Affordable Care Act will make that worse.   

A person I know is a young single mother of a young child.  The child was recently diagnosed with a serious illness.  The treatment is lengthy, difficult, expensive, and emotionally exhausting.  The outcome for the child is uncertain.  Their insurance is inadequate -- any insurance would be inadequate.  Their assets are non-existent.  Their lives are essentially over.  Through no fault of their own.

I cannot understand how so many civilized countries -- Great Britain, Canada, Sweden,  ... -- have demonstrated that high quality health care can be provided to everyone at reasonable cost, but the US seems unable to.  

This isn't about left or right.  It is about being civilized or uncivilized; compassionate or cruel; caring or greedy.  

Best,
Howard


----------



## SirRumpole

You forgot Australia Howard.

That child's treatment would be essentially free (drug costs excepted but the price is subsidised).

It's paid for by a surcharge on income tax, but there is private health insurance here as well.

I'm glad I'm not sick in the US.


----------



## OmegaTrader

howardbandy said:


> Greetings --
> 
> I am a US citizen living in the US.  The US is already far, far behind the world's leading countries in caring for the health of its citizens.  My wife and I are reasonably affluent and have reasonably good health care.  But many Americans do not, and removing the Affordable Care Act will make that worse.
> 
> A person I know is a young single mother of a young child.  The child was recently diagnosed with a serious illness.  The treatment is lengthy, difficult, expensive, and emotionally exhausting.  The outcome for the child is uncertain.  Their insurance is inadequate -- any insurance would be inadequate.  Their assets are non-existent.  Their lives are essentially over.  Through no fault of their own.
> 
> I cannot understand how so many civilized countries -- Great Britain, Canada, Sweden,  ... -- have demonstrated that high quality health care can be provided to everyone at reasonable cost, but the US seems unable to.
> 
> This isn't about left or right.  It is about being civilized or uncivilized; compassionate or cruel; caring or greedy.
> 
> Best,
> Howard





The reason why people can't afford healthcare is because of the extreme cost.

The reason.......

Doctors and the medical profession are laughing all the way to the bank. Anti competition and cartel behaviour. 

To be a doctor you need a high score at school graduation mark, then have to take another test, then you have to have an interview, just to get into medicine. Other wise you have to go through the back door and study at uni to rack up a massive student debt. Once you have used up your main government subsidy for uni, hex/help the cost doubles if you study further. Everyone at school who went for medicine I know could not get in, had to go through the back door.

Want an operation. $000's or you die or live in misery.

Shifting to a government or insurance model does not solve the issue. It simply shifts the costs.

The problem is still the medical profession gouging people.

In Australia the cost is born by the government and is one the major future problems facing the country with an ageing population. This is the problem around the world.

quick google medical salaries etc

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/heres-how-much-money-australian-doctors-actually-earn-2014-5

I support the insurance scheme in principle because it forces people into paying a constant stream like savings, the premium can be invested over time to lesson the cost.

In  the current gov model alot of people are paying nothing mainly by retiring strategically or obtaining child based welfare strategically

In an insurance model at least people would pay something and if they are on welfare then that would be come out of the welfare payment.


Here in australia a person can put all of their money into a house. UNLIMITED VALUE HOUSE or give away their money five years before pension age to their children with no gift tax. Also the house will have not capital gains tax if it is their main residence. You could have a 2 million or 5 million or 10 million dollar house and still get a pension and free medical.

Then they receive practically free healthcare and a pension. Welfare is about 35% of the total budget. One you add in medical it is just over  50% of the total expenditure or  given spending is about 36% of GDP -18% of GDP.

There is a medicare levy of  I think 2% and a additional surplus for income earners above a certain level. An income earner can avoid this surplus by taking private health insurance. But alot of people still use the gov system because it is a lot cheaper even with health insurance, just have insurance to avoid the surplus tax.


There will always be adverse selection and people extracting a surplus whether intentionally or by bad luck. But at least in an insurance scheme the surplus is used for people to claim rather than going into gov bureaucracy to be spent in other areas. Premiums need also to be kept under control but if medical cost go down, this could largely negate the problem or exorbitant premiums.

Rather than selling your house to pay for the doctors ferrari in Australia, you get it for a cheaper cost but that cost is simply shifted to the government who will get it from taxation or overspending the budget and borrowing.

But the insurance scheme will not work if medical costs are brought down by increasing competition.

That is why I like the insurance scheme better.



my two cents.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> You forgot Australia Howard.
> 
> That child's treatment would be essentially free (drug costs excepted but the price is subsidised).
> 
> It's paid for by a surcharge on income tax, but there is private health insurance here as well.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not sick in the US.




From what our family went through, that child's treatment would be completely free in Australia - medicine included.

As long as the child is treated in a hospital, Medicare will pay for it.

Medicare is a great insurance policy. It focus on the care of citizens rather than profiting from them.

So when I was young, single... my income goes towards medicare and I hardly use the system. When I earn quite a bit, the entire medicare levy and surchage  paid was something like $5K. I wasn't too happy about it then but man, you really appreciate how great we're having it when we (all) eventually get sick and need urgent medical care.


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> The reason why people can't afford healthcare is because of the extreme cost.
> 
> The reason.......
> 
> Doctors and the medical profession are laughing all the way to the bank. Anti competition and cartel behaviour.
> 
> To be a doctor you need a high score at school graduation mark, then have to take another test, then you have to have an interview, just to get into medicine. Other wise you have to go through the back door and study at uni to rack up a massive student debt. Once you have used up your main government subsidy for uni, hex/help the cost doubles if you study further. Everyone at school who went for medicine I know could not get in, had to go through the back door.
> 
> Want an operation. $000's or you die or live in misery.
> 
> Shifting to a government or insurance model does not solve the issue. It simply shifts the costs.
> 
> The problem is still the medical profession gouging people.
> 
> In Australia the cost is born by the government and is one the major future problems facing the country with an ageing population. This is the problem around the world.
> 
> quick google medical salaries etc
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/heres-how-much-money-australian-doctors-actually-earn-2014-5
> 
> I support the insurance scheme in principle because it forces people into paying a constant stream like savings, the premium can be invested over time to lesson the cost.
> 
> In  the current gov model alot of people are paying nothing mainly by retiring strategically or obtaining child based welfare strategically
> 
> In an insurance model at least people would pay something and if they are on welfare then that would be come out of the welfare payment.
> 
> 
> Here in australia a person can put all of their money into a house. UNLIMITED VALUE HOUSE or give away their money five years before pension age to their children with no gift tax. Also the house will have not capital gains tax if it is their main residence. You could have a 2 million or 5 million or 10 million dollar house and still get a pension and free medical.
> 
> Then they receive practically free healthcare and a pension. Welfare is about 35% of the total budget. One you add in medical it is just over  50% of the total expenditure or  given spending is about 36% of GDP -18% of GDP.
> 
> There is a medicare levy of  I think 2% and a additional surplus for income earners above a certain level. An income earner can avoid this surplus by taking private health insurance. But alot of people still use the gov system because it is a lot cheaper even with health insurance, just have insurance to avoid the surplus tax.
> 
> 
> There will always be adverse selection and people extracting a surplus whether intentionally or by bad luck. But at least in an insurance scheme the surplus is used for people to claim rather than going into gov bureaucracy to be spent in other areas. Premiums need also to be kept under control but if medical cost go down, this could largely negate the problem or exorbitant premiums.
> 
> Rather than selling your house to pay for the doctors ferrari in Australia, you get it for a cheaper cost but that cost is simply shifted to the government who will get it from taxation or overspending the budget and borrowing.
> 
> But the insurance scheme will not work if medical costs are brought down by increasing competition.
> 
> That is why I like the insurance scheme better.
> 
> 
> 
> my two cents.




Medicare is an insurance scheme. It's just a public one.

The other insurance scheme is private. And as private entrepreneur does best, premiums will always increase and fine prints will get finer and finer until that gold-plated insurance you think have you covered didn't.

There are lots of examples in the US where people who pay some $20K in premium a year thought they're covered, then get a big surprise when their insurer refused to pay for most or all of the costs becasue of this or other reasons. 

Then if they still have enough life and money left, would need to get a lawyer and start suing.

Try suing a multi-billion dollar insurer. It's not cheap... your average lawyer won't touch it. The above average lawyer will cost a pretty penny.


So our medicare is great. It's a public health insurance where those who can pay and those who are too poor or too sick still get covered.

Health is a right, not a privilege.

Don't get fooled into those "freedom" and "choice" bs American politicians does very well when they're screwing the public over.

I mean, all American politicians get a public-funded medicare programme. It's all working well and doing great for them... for the average American though, it's free market baby. Tough love will make you stronger.
-------------

Doctors and surgeon do earn a fair bit, but in all honesty... beside maybe the specialists, they don't gouge that much over here. I've seen people doing much less important work gouging the gov't a heck of a lot more. Just ask IBM.


----------



## luutzu

20M on the verge of famine.

Let's cut UN funding and see how that goes.


----------



## OmegaTrader

luutzu said:


> Medicare is an insurance scheme. It's just a public one.
> 
> The other insurance scheme is private. And as private entrepreneur does best, premiums will always increase and fine prints will get finer and finer until that gold-plated insurance you think have you covered didn't.
> 
> There are lots of examples in the US where people who pay some $20K in premium a year thought they're covered, then get a big surprise when their insurer refused to pay for most or all of the costs becasue of this or other reasons.
> 
> Then if they still have enough life and money left, would need to get a lawyer and start suing.
> 
> Try suing a multi-billion dollar insurer. It's not cheap... your average lawyer won't touch it. The above average lawyer will cost a pretty penny.
> 
> 
> So our medicare is great. It's a public health insurance where those who can pay and those who are too poor or too sick still get covered.
> 
> Health is a right, not a privilege.
> 
> Don't get fooled into those "freedom" and "choice" bs American politicians does very well when they're screwing the public over.
> 
> I mean, all American politicians get a public-funded medicare programme. It's all working well and doing great for them... for the average American though, it's free market baby. Tough love will make you stronger.
> -------------
> 
> Doctors and surgeon do earn a fair bit, but in all honesty... beside maybe the specialists, they don't gouge that much over here. I've seen people doing much less important work gouging the gov't a heck of a lot more. Just ask IBM.




1)The lack of coverage is a failure of regulation and business self interest winning over government, just like the queensland floods. The gov was too weak on insurers adn taxed people to pay for the disaster levy wtf?

2) It is great but unsustainable with longer living ages 50% of budget on welfare and taxes, eventually the system will break at this level of spending

3) If prices fall it will be less of an issue and in an economy with fair wages people could actually afford to pay the medical bills

4) medical profession is definitely gouging big time as is the legal proffession, definetly not a free market with lack of competition and cartel behaviour, solve this and solve the burden. I help that technology and advances solves the issue by lowering costs by reducing labour.

two wrongs don't make a right, gouging is gouging.


----------



## Junior

OmegaTrader said:


> 1)The lack of coverage is a failure of regulation and business self interest winning over government, just like the queensland floods. The gov was too weak on insurers adn taxed people to pay for the disaster levy wtf?
> 
> 2) It is great but unsustainable with longer living ages 50% of budget on welfare and taxes, eventually the system will break at this level of spending
> 
> 3) If prices fall it will be less of an issue and in an economy with fair wages people could actually afford to pay the medical bills
> 
> 4) medical profession is definitely gouging big time as is the legal proffession, definetly not a free market with lack of competition and cartel behaviour, solve this and solve the burden. I help that technology and advances solves the issue by lowering costs by reducing labour.
> 
> two wrongs don't make a right, gouging is gouging.




A couple of points here:

1)  Qld floods, is this related to healthcare?  Or are you talking home and contents insurance here?


4)  I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as what you are saying....if you want to be a GP or surgeon you spend a huge amount of time and money to get qualfied, then you work in a role with high stress and long long hours. 

The equipment and technology used in a hospital is highly specialised and costly.

The reason you spend so long waiting to be attended to, is because of the massive demand doctors face, they take very short breaks during a shift and work long hours.  They deserve to be paid handsomely.

In Australia we have a great system, of course it can always be improved, but I daresay, that in the US, they should use Australia as a case study when it comes to offering universal free healthcare.


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> 1)The lack of coverage is a failure of regulation and business self interest winning over government, just like the queensland floods. The gov was too weak on insurers adn taxed people to pay for the disaster levy wtf?
> 
> 2) It is great but unsustainable with longer living ages 50% of budget on welfare and taxes, eventually the system will break at this level of spending
> 
> 3) If prices fall it will be less of an issue and in an economy with fair wages people could actually afford to pay the medical bills
> 
> 4) medical profession is definitely gouging big time as is the legal proffession, definetly not a free market with lack of competition and cartel behaviour, solve this and solve the burden. I help that technology and advances solves the issue by lowering costs by reducing labour.
> 
> two wrongs don't make a right, gouging is gouging.




There are price gouging for sure. But from the little that I know, it's mainly from private practises rather than from public hospital staff and medical personnel.

A few years ago, a friend's wife earns about $75K a year as head of an intensive care nursing unit at, I think, the Royal North Shore Hospital. They're in the life-saving business, working as a nurse in ICU is no easy job and still being paid only that much is very reasonable.

Specialists on the other hand... costs a min of $350 to see one for a minor consultation.

A private hospital dentist operated on my kid's teeth because the previous dentist screwed up and her teeth was infected from the filling...  The first bastard didn't repay us the money for dodgy work; the second one charges something like $100 to pull one tooth out [there were two], then he charges an extra $75 to stitch each hole the tooth left.

All in all, a 1 hour operation to remove two teeth and glue cap a couple other [just in case] costs us $1,650.

If we're to go private with our healthcare system, we'd all be screwed like the average American who's paying twice the costs. And that's if we're lucky enough to afford it.


Medicare is not broke; it's an insurance operation. If the costs of the entire system is too high, just raise the levy or surcharge. That way, we will still all pay less for proper care. Private insurance is not the answer.

That and instead of giving corporations tax cuts and other generosity to the already rich, put it towards healthcare for all.

Healthy people are more productive. It also mean their family member do not have to take time off work to take care of them... also mean the sick won't be forced to work, handling meal while they're sick; passing on contagious diseases... It's also a right too.

Why should we pay all our taxes but expect nothing in return.


----------



## OmegaTrader

Junior said:


> A couple of points here:
> 
> 1)  Qld floods, is this related to healthcare?  Or are you talking home and contents insurance here?
> 
> 
> 4)  I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as what you are saying....if you want to be a GP or surgeon you spend a huge amount of time and money to get qualfied, then you work in a role with high stress and long long hours.
> 
> The equipment and technology used in a hospital is highly specialised and costly.
> 
> The reason you spend so long waiting to be attended to, is because of the massive demand doctors face, they take very short breaks during a shift and work long hours.  They deserve to be paid handsomely.
> 
> In Australia we have a great system, of course it can always be improved, but I daresay, that in the US, they should use Australia as a case study when it comes to offering universal free healthcare.






luutzu said:


> There are price gouging for sure. But from the little that I know, it's mainly from private practises rather than from public hospital staff and medical personnel.
> 
> A few years ago, a friend's wife earns about $75K a year as head of an intensive care nursing unit at, I think, the Royal North Shore Hospital. They're in the life-saving business, working as a nurse in ICU is no easy job and still being paid only that much is very reasonable.
> 
> Specialists on the other hand... costs a min of $350 to see one for a minor consultation.
> 
> A private hospital dentist operated on my kid's teeth because the previous dentist screwed up and her teeth was infected from the filling...  The first bastard didn't repay us the money for dodgy work; the second one charges something like $100 to pull one tooth out [there were two], then he charges an extra $75 to stitch each hole the tooth left.
> 
> All in all, a 1 hour operation to remove two teeth and glue cap a couple other [just in case] costs us $1,650.
> 
> If we're to go private with our healthcare system, we'd all be screwed like the average American who's paying twice the costs. And that's if we're lucky enough to afford it.
> 
> 
> Medicare is not broke; it's an insurance operation. If the costs of the entire system is too high, just raise the levy or surcharge. That way, we will still all pay less for proper care. Private insurance is not the answer.
> 
> That and instead of giving corporations tax cuts and other generosity to the already rich, put it towards healthcare for all.
> 
> Healthy people are more productive. It also mean their family member do not have to take time off work to take care of them... also mean the sick won't be forced to work, handling meal while they're sick; passing on contagious diseases... It's also a right too.
> 
> Why should we pay all our taxes but expect nothing in return.




1) In QLD flood insurers got out of paying by saying that a flood was not a flood if the water came from a river not from rain. Alot of people were not covered even when advice from financial institutions said they were. Therefore the government had to levy people to pay for some of these problems as well as being unprepared and realeasing the dams. It is a broader policy of insurance companies not covering people in events for self interest and government failing to regulate this issue. Also commowealth bank has been implicated in recent insurance issues . It is the same around the world

2)It is only a matter of time before the system is overrun at the current rate

3)medical profession is gouging alot of people and myself have had good experience with public sector medical. Overall quality is excellent++ but price is not especially for private.

4) Alot of people are extracting a surplus by strategically getting welfare. If less money is spent on medical/welfare the idea is it can be channelled in others areas, although in practice the bureaucracy will prob eat it up anyway, that is why the less they get the less they spend after the minimum needed it just gets wasted.


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) In QLD flood insurers got out of paying by saying that a flood was not a flood if the water came from a river not from rain. Alot of people were not covered even when advice from financial institutions said they were. Therefore the government had to levy people to pay for some of these problems as well as being unprepared and realeasing the dams. It is a broader policy of insurance companies not covering people in events for self interest and government failing to regulate this issue. Also commowealth bank has been implicated in recent insurance issues . It is the same around the world
> 
> 2)It is only a matter of time before the system is overrun at the current rate
> 
> 3)medical profession is gouging alot of people and myself have had good experience with public sector medical. Overall quality is excellent++ but price is not especially for private.
> 
> 4) Alot of people are extracting a surplus by strategically getting welfare. If less money is spent on medical/welfare the idea is it can be channelled in others areas, although in practice the bureaucracy will prob eat it up anyway, that is why the less they get the less they spend after the minimum needed it just gets wasted.





I guess it's a good example of public/socialised insurance being better and more effective than privatised insurance.

An insurer's business model is to insure those who never need to ever make a claim. Or not need it unless some freak event happen. A smarter insurer make sure there are legal wiggle room to get out of any such freak event.

That's how they make money. It's not like most know how to make money from investing those float right?

There are certain place and certain market where private enterprise better serve the public. Flood, natural disasters, public health ain't those.

So if Medicare is going broke, raise the levy and surcharge. We all end up paying, but still pay less than if we were to all go private.


----------



## OmegaTrader

luutzu said:


> I guess it's a good example of public/socialised insurance being better and more effective than privatised insurance.
> 
> An insurer's business model is to insure those who never need to ever make a claim. Or not need it unless some freak event happen. A smarter insurer make sure there are legal wiggle room to get out of any such freak event.
> 
> That's how they make money. It's not like most know how to make money from investing those float right?
> 
> There are certain place and certain market where private enterprise better serve the public. Flood, natural disasters, public health ain't those.
> 
> So if Medicare is going broke, raise the levy and surcharge. We all end up paying, but still pay less than if we were to all go private.




1) agree the gov is supposed to be for regulation in insurance, that is their job to stop silly buggers wiggling by companies. Failure is both the cops and the crooks fault.

2) Paul keating in interview has discussed the suggestion of an insurance type system run by the government, which takes out the profit motive but of course introduces bureaucracy. It would be much fairer then increases the levy to pay for people who strategically get welfare and thereby healthcare. It creates surpluses for people willing to be strategic. Also the medicare levy is insufficient and given the run up off costs eventually taxation will be overwhelmed unless costs decrease by either innovation/technology or regulation/measures/market conditions to improve competition. The market is failing leading to an exorbitant burden.

3) Again costs are the main issue burden is the secondary issue.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> From what our family went through, that child's treatment would be completely free in Australia - medicine included.
> 
> As long as the child is treated in a hospital, Medicare will pay for it.
> 
> Medicare is a great insurance policy. It focus on the care of citizens rather than profiting from them.
> 
> So when I was young, single... my income goes towards medicare and I hardly use the system. When I earn quite a bit, the entire medicare levy and surchage  paid was something like $5K. I wasn't too happy about it then but man, you really appreciate how great we're having it when we (all) eventually get sick and need urgent medical care.




The government recoups some $11 billion from the 1.5% and 2% of salaries......Medicare cost in the vicinity of $22 billion.......$11 billion short fall.......I believe it is time the Government lifted the take from salaries by .5%  to 2% and 2.5% to each category due to the increase cost of medical care.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> The government recoups some $11 billion from the 1.5% and 2% of salaries......Medicare cost in the vicinity of $22 billion.......$11 billion short fall.......I believe it is time the Government lifted the take from salaries by .5%  to 2% and 2.5% to each category due to the increase cost of medical care.




Yea I wouldn't mind a surcharge or an increase in the levy. Though if the shortfall can be taken care from our income tax pool, there's no reason why our income tax shouldn't also be going towards part of the healthcare budget too.

So for gov't to say that medicare is going broke is playing too loose with reality.

But either way, having this sort of gov't insurance where we all contribute, even with an increase surcharge, is well worth it. 

If we opt for the US kind of system, we would all still be paying anyway. Just a heck of a lot more. So the average earner will pay a higher insurance premium directly to the insurers - who won't be playing nice; the poor wouldn't be able to afford insurance so will be up the creek if they ever get sick; and insurers will profit handsomely.


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) agree the gov is supposed to be for regulation in insurance, that is their job to stop silly buggers wiggling by companies. Failure is both the cops and the crooks fault.
> 
> 2) Paul keating in interview has discussed the suggestion of an insurance type system run by the government, which takes out the profit motive but of course introduces bureaucracy. It would be much fairer then increases the levy to pay for people who strategically get welfare and thereby healthcare. It creates surpluses for people willing to be strategic. Also the medicare levy is insufficient and given the run up off costs eventually taxation will be overwhelmed unless costs decrease by either innovation/technology or regulation/measures/market conditions to improve competition. The market is failing leading to an exorbitant burden.
> 
> 3) Again costs are the main issue burden is the secondary issue.




Yea it's pretty amazing the kind of bs insurers can get away with and politicians just letting them. Can't put up too much of a fight when it could be one of the boards you could be on if you play nice with other people's money. 

There's bureaucracy and administrative costs in private insurers too. They're not as efficient as they're made out to be. They're just a bit more nasty in how they fire people and a bit slack in the quality of service they provide - hence, "efficiency" as measured by the costs of providing services.

So they can cut back on staff numbers, it costs them less money, but the waiting line and calling time gets longer - the costs get past onto the consumers. Not real efficiency really. Just passing the buck.

True, if our healthcare system really wants to, it could just bring everything in-house... or at least most things... and the cost savings would be incredible. But like you said, societies this and expertise that and somehow some dude pulling teeth could charge hundreds a half hour.

I don't know the details of our health system so can't go into it. But have heard that in the UK, their public health system has slowly been privatised without the public being aware of it.

That most functions at hospitals and such have been contracted out to private operators - the big guys, not the mum and pop operator. And that's one of the major reasons why medical expenses have skyrocketed. Almost to the point where self-serving politicians can make a case of "can't afford it" and flog the whole thing off to big multinationals.


----------



## howardbandy

luutzu said:


> From what our family went through, that child's treatment would be completely free in Australia - medicine included.
> 
> As long as the child is treated in a hospital, Medicare will pay for it.
> 
> Medicare is a great insurance policy. It focus on the care of citizens rather than profiting from them.
> 
> So when I was young, single... my income goes towards medicare and I hardly use the system. When I earn quite a bit, the entire medicare levy and surchage  paid was something like $5K. I wasn't too happy about it then but man, you really appreciate how great we're having it when we (all) eventually get sick and need urgent medical care.




Between the insurance premiums my wife and I pay, and the residual charges we must pay ourselves that insurance does not pay (called "co-payments" in the US), our medical cost is well in excess of $10,000 per year.  Drugs are partially covered.  Hearing, eye, and dental care are not covered by insurance for most Americans -- they are 100% paid for out of our pocket.  (My wife has an appointment to have a tooth crowned next week.  The estimated cost is $1600 -- not included in the $10,000.)

One of the reasons the US is having this problem is that health insurance was made a benefit of employment following WWII to aid in employment recruiting.  Public agencies cut back and dropped coverage until essentially all health care was through employment related policies.  When people changed jobs, lost jobs, retired, or were students, the health care attached to employment model broke down and there was, and now is, no good alternative.  

Hospitals are required to treat patients who visit "emergency rooms" for treatment without requiring insurance or advance payment.  Emergency room care is far more expensive than equivalent care in a physician office, clinic, or pre-arranged hospital.  Emergency room treatments that are not paid by the patient are allocated to other patients -- those who pay out-of-pocket or with insurance.  One of the consequences of removing the Affordable Care Act is to cause patients to reduce preventative care, become more seriously ill before seeking treatment, and increase use emergency rooms.  Together, these factors cause the overall quality of health to drop and the total cost of health care to rise.  

A statement often made by Americans is that we are all only one serious illness or accident away from bankruptcy.  All but the very wealthiest Americans die with no remaining assets, but with unpaid health care bills.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> Yea I wouldn't mind a surcharge or an increase in the levy. Though if the shortfall can be taken care from our income tax pool, there's no reason why our income tax shouldn't also be going towards part of the healthcare budget too.
> 
> So for gov't to say that medicare is going broke is playing too loose with reality.
> 
> But either way, having this sort of gov't insurance where we all contribute, even with an increase surcharge, is well worth it.
> 
> If we opt for the US kind of system, we would all still be paying anyway. Just a heck of a lot more. So the average earner will pay a higher insurance premium directly to the insurers - who won't be playing nice; the poor wouldn't be able to afford insurance so will be up the creek if they ever get sick; and insurers will profit handsomely.




Thee problem that is occurring ATM is many are finding it hard to maintain their private health insurance because of ever increasing costs of premiums and are leaving in droves which in turn will put more pressure on our Public Hospital system.


----------



## OmegaTrader

howardbandy said:


> Between the insurance premiums my wife and I pay, and the residual charges we must pay ourselves that insurance does not pay (called "co-payments" in the US), our medical cost is well in excess of $10,000 per year.  Drugs are partially covered.  Hearing, eye, and dental care are not covered by insurance for most Americans -- they are 100% paid for out of our pocket.  (My wife has an appointment to have a tooth crowned next week.  The estimated cost is $1600 -- not included in the $10,000.)
> 
> One of the reasons the US is having this problem is that health insurance was made a benefit of employment following WWII to aid in employment recruiting.  Public agencies cut back and dropped coverage until essentially all health care was through employment related policies.  When people changed jobs, lost jobs, retired, or were students, the health care attached to employment model broke down and there was, and now is, no good alternative.
> 
> Hospitals are required to treat patients who visit "emergency rooms" for treatment without requiring insurance or advance payment.  Emergency room care is far more expensive than equivalent care in a physician office, clinic, or pre-arranged hospital.  Emergency room treatments that are not paid by the patient are allocated to other patients -- those who pay out-of-pocket or with insurance.  One of the consequences of removing the Affordable Care Act is to cause patients to reduce preventative care, become more seriously ill before seeking treatment, and increase use emergency rooms.  Together, these factors cause the overall quality of health to drop and the total cost of health care to rise.
> 
> A statement often made by Americans is that we are all only one serious illness or accident away from bankruptcy.  All but the very wealthiest Americans die with no remaining assets, but with unpaid health care bills.





luutzu said:


> Yea it's pretty amazing the kind of bs insurers can get away with and politicians just letting them. Can't put up too much of a fight when it could be one of the boards you could be on if you play nice with other people's money.
> 
> There's bureaucracy and administrative costs in private insurers too. They're not as efficient as they're made out to be. They're just a bit more nasty in how they fire people and a bit slack in the quality of service they provide - hence, "efficiency" as measured by the costs of providing services.
> 
> So they can cut back on staff numbers, it costs them less money, but the waiting line and calling time gets longer - the costs get past onto the consumers. Not real efficiency really. Just passing the buck.
> 
> True, if our healthcare system really wants to, it could just bring everything in-house... or at least most things... and the cost savings would be incredible. But like you said, societies this and expertise that and somehow some dude pulling teeth could charge hundreds a half hour.
> 
> I don't know the details of our health system so can't go into it. But have heard that in the UK, their public health system has slowly been privatised without the public being aware of it.
> 
> That most functions at hospitals and such have been contracted out to private operators - the big guys, not the mum and pop operator. And that's one of the major reasons why medical expenses have skyrocketed. Almost to the point where self-serving politicians can make a case of "can't afford it" and flog the whole thing off to big multinationals.





Follow the money all the way to the bank. 

Medical professionals bank.

That is the main problem. The rest is burden shifting.

The end

I rest my case and am going home now to bed.


----------



## luutzu

howardbandy said:


> Between the insurance premiums my wife and I pay, and the residual charges we must pay ourselves that insurance does not pay (called "co-payments" in the US), our medical cost is well in excess of $10,000 per year.  Drugs are partially covered.  Hearing, eye, and dental care are not covered by insurance for most Americans -- they are 100% paid for out of our pocket.  (My wife has an appointment to have a tooth crowned next week.  The estimated cost is $1600 -- not included in the $10,000.)
> 
> One of the reasons the US is having this problem is that health insurance was made a benefit of employment following WWII to aid in employment recruiting.  Public agencies cut back and dropped coverage until essentially all health care was through employment related policies.  When people changed jobs, lost jobs, retired, or were students, the health care attached to employment model broke down and there was, and now is, no good alternative.
> 
> Hospitals are required to treat patients who visit "emergency rooms" for treatment without requiring insurance or advance payment.  Emergency room care is far more expensive than equivalent care in a physician office, clinic, or pre-arranged hospital.  Emergency room treatments that are not paid by the patient are allocated to other patients -- those who pay out-of-pocket or with insurance.  One of the consequences of removing the Affordable Care Act is to cause patients to reduce preventative care, become more seriously ill before seeking treatment, and increase use emergency rooms.  Together, these factors cause the overall quality of health to drop and the total cost of health care to rise.
> 
> A statement often made by Americans is that we are all only one serious illness or accident away from bankruptcy.  All but the very wealthiest Americans die with no remaining assets, but with unpaid health care bills.




That's just incredible. 

It's still hard to believe now as it was when I first heard about the US healthcare system from Michael Moore's Sicko. I could never imagine how in a rich country like the US, an couple in their sixties have to sell their home, move into their kid's basement because one of them got a serious illness. 

Hard to believe how American politicians managed to pull this kind of neglect off for so long. Paul Ryan and Trump are still playing it. What with calling TrumpCare an "act of mercy", giving freedom and choice. 

Imagine having to pay some 1/3 of your income on health insurance. Then get muck around with by insurers when you or your loved one is sick.

Do you think the political climate in America is starting to move towards a single-payer system like all the developed economies have been enjoying all these decades?

From the recent town hall meetings where politicians are given a hiding, most Americans seems to be tired of the usual "free market" capitalism is great, socialism is evil stuff.

With half the population being $1000 away from disaster, platitudes about freedom and democracy doesn't seem to work anymore.

If nothing change in this area... the gutting of the EPA, the deregulation of farm and mining runoffs into waterways; the frackings and pipelines; the free for all for insurers and big pharma... It's not going to end well for millions more American.

But the protests and activism at those town hall meetings look promising.

Maybe Trump is the best thing for American democracy since Hitler.


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> Thee problem that is occurring ATM is many are finding it hard to maintain their private health insurance because of ever increasing costs of premiums and are leaving in droves which in turn will put more pressure on our Public Hospital system.




Yea, premium goes up because the gov't only free-market mean of controlling private insurers from price gouging was floated off to "mom and pop" investor. 

They got real efficient in a hurry, firing people, increasing premium and pass the savings onto their investors.

There are lots of ways to save money. Cutting services and kicking people off of it shouldn't be one of them.

But that's what is done... why? Because poor and sick citizens are easy target. Try cutting a few bucks off GP or Specialist fees. They'll cry poor, stop donating to political fund raisers then threaten to pass the costs onto patient they care so much about because who could live with earning a couple hundreds an hour right?


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> Follow the money all the way to the bank.
> 
> Medical professionals bank.
> 
> That is the main problem. The rest is burden shifting.
> 
> The end
> 
> I rest my case and am going home now to bed.




Vested interests with big bank account are the problem. But I don't think they're the main problem though.

Main problem lies with the spineless and self-serving politicians who either make laws that also serve themselves; or make laws they hate to serve those who will make or break their dream of a mention in the history book.

That and being a democracy, the failure of our politicians does come down and rest on our shoulders.

We plebs have been too quiet, too complacent and just dream of some great leader who will come to our rescue.

It's also hard to blame ourselves too since that's what we've been indoctrinated to believe since birth. 

But there are opportunities there... if we don't take it and get noisy. Others will play and loot us like idiots while we fight among ourselves over crumbs and religion and value.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> From the recent town hall meetings where politicians are given a hiding, most Americans seems to be tired of the usual "free market" capitalism is great, socialism is evil stuff.




Yet they voted for Trump, the most capitalistic politician in the race.

WTF ? (Couldn't find a WTF icon)


----------



## howardbandy

The US -- and to some extent the other developed nations that were on the winning side of WWII -- got strong economic recovery and growth following the war.  Along with that came attachment of health care to employment which is a large part of that problem.  But the point of this post is growth, rather than health care.  

In the period from 1946 to 2000, the US grew much faster than the rest of the world, with US population at 5% of the world using 25% of the world's resources.  Post 2000, the previously undeveloped and underdeveloped nations have been expanding much faster than the US.  In the process, there is increased competition for resources and the prices are being bid up.  Without regard to the politics of other countries, the ratio of resource use to population is in the process of going from 5:1 toward 1:1.  I do not have an estimate of how far that process will go, but at the limit of 1:1 the US will have an 80% decrease in standard of living (use of resources) and / or a 400% increase in cost of living.  

Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking, Fast and Slow," points out how easily we fool ourselves and how difficult it is for people to extrapolate change that is faster than linear.  Standard of living, cost of living, resource use, and energy use are all strongly correlated.  The US standard of living is decreasing, perhaps in absolute terms, but certainly relative to the rest of the world.  As a country, we cannot understand it and we cannot tolerate that it might be true.  

Middle class Americans are being squeezed by the economics on the one hand, and by automation on the other.  Middle class incomes are going away as jobs are being replaced by automation.  Immigration into the country, legal or illegal, is not a big cause.  But it is the cause that is being blamed.  An analogy is poor kids stealing lunch money from rich kids, or gangs robbing houses of rich people and looting stores.  The rich people react by retreating into gated communities and stocking up on guns.  Trump seems to be playing this on a national scale -- building walls along borders and buying aircraft carriers.

He, Trump, has no personal credibility remaining.  Even if he is discredited and resigns, there remains a large portion of US lawmakers who are happy to go along with isolation and defense.  Which comes at the expense of health care, education, environment, infrastructure, ...

Today, Trump gets the blame.  His rude and uncivilized personal behavior, inflammatory rhetoric, and outright lying give us all a large target for our objections.  But the problem the US has is much larger than Trump.  Unfortunately, as long as he and his are in power, the real problems will not even be addressed, much less solved.

End of rant.  Thanks for listening.
Best,  Howard


----------



## Knobby22

Yes Howard, increasing defence spending while reducing services to the populace, it is not a way to have a happy country. Even a wing of the Republicans wish have resevations about this thinking.


----------



## Tisme

howardbandy said:


> The US -- and to some extent the other developed nations that were on the winning side of WWII -- got strong economic recovery and growth following the war.  Along with that came attachment of health care to employment which is a large part of that problem.  But the point of this post is growth, rather than health care.
> 
> In the period from 1946 to 2000, the US grew much faster than the rest of the world, with US population at 5% of the world using 25% of the world's resources.  Post 2000, the previously undeveloped and underdeveloped nations have been expanding much faster than the US.  In the process, there is increased competition for resources and the prices are being bid up.  Without regard to the politics of other countries, the ratio of resource use to population is in the process of going from 5:1 toward 1:1.  I do not have an estimate of how far that process will go, but at the limit of 1:1 the US will have an 80% decrease in standard of living (use of resources) and / or a 400% increase in cost of living.
> 
> Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking, Fast and Slow," points out how easily we fool ourselves and how difficult it is for people to extrapolate change that is faster than linear.  Standard of living, cost of living, resource use, and energy use are all strongly correlated.  The US standard of living is decreasing, perhaps in absolute terms, but certainly relative to the rest of the world.  As a country, we cannot understand it and we cannot tolerate that it might be true.
> 
> Middle class Americans are being squeezed by the economics on the one hand, and by automation on the other.  Middle class incomes are going away as jobs are being replaced by automation.  Immigration into the country, legal or illegal, is not a big cause.  But it is the cause that is being blamed.  An analogy is poor kids stealing lunch money from rich kids, or gangs robbing houses of rich people and looting stores.  The rich people react by retreating into gated communities and stocking up on guns.  Trump seems to be playing this on a national scale -- building walls along borders and buying aircraft carriers.
> 
> He, Trump, has no personal credibility remaining.  Even if he is discredited and resigns, there remains a large portion of US lawmakers who are happy to go along with isolation and defense.  Which comes at the expense of health care, education, environment, infrastructure, ...
> 
> Today, Trump gets the blame.  His rude and uncivilized personal behavior, inflammatory rhetoric, and outright lying give us all a large target for our objections.  But the problem the US has is much larger than Trump.  Unfortunately, as long as he and his are in power, the real problems will not even be addressed, much less solved.
> 
> End of rant.  Thanks for listening.
> Best,  Howard




"While policymakers and the media closely track Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and judge America’s progress by it, the American Human Development Index tracks median personal earnings, a better gauge of ordinary Americans’ standard of living. The graph below chronicles two stories of American economic history over the past 35 years. One is the story of extraordinary economic growth as told by GDP; the other is a story of economic stagnation as told by earnings, which have barely budged since 1974 (both in constant dollars)."

http://ssrc-static.s3.amazonaws.com/moa/AHDP-INCOME-FACT-SHEET-11.08.10.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> Middle class Americans are being squeezed by the economics on the one hand, and by automation on the other. Middle class incomes are going away as jobs are being replaced by automation.




Not just the US. This is happening around the world. Companies are getting richer, the bulk of people are getting poorer, something has to snap.


----------



## Trembling Hand

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-lobbies-for-rule-change-that-benefits-icahn



> “This looks more like what you’d see in a banana republic,” says Tyson Slocum of Public Citizen, a liberal watchdog group. “You’ve got a strongman who surrounds himself with billionaires or wealthy advisers who conduct the business of government to benefit their business.”


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Not just the US. This is happening around the world. Companies are getting richer, the bulk of people are getting poorer, something has to snap.




The people's back will snap first; then a few of their necks. Then once enough of them got snapped the masses will snap back, grazing everything to the ground as power and wealth changes hand.

But that's why we militarised our police and jack up our surveillance. All to protect us against (Muslim) terrorists of course.


----------



## luutzu

Trembling Hand said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-lobbies-for-rule-change-that-benefits-icahn





That's a bit unfair on Banana Republics because in those (South American) states, a foreign superpower uses its military might to enforce that kind of system on the Banana Republic to advance the interests of multinationals.

Here, they're doing it to themselves.


----------



## noco

It beats the $hit out of me why, on this forum, we are paying so much attention to American politics when we should be more concerned about what is going on Australia.

I have never ever known so much relentless  pain in the a$$ comments  shown in the USA and is it happening on a daily basis here in Australia and the US...Plenty of lies and propaganda. 

Or maybe it is just a continuous socialist left wing bagging of Trump to discredit the man when ever they can.

You never hear this brainless group criticizing Obama or Hillary Clinton.......How one sided and biased can you get?

The Democrats in the US and the Green/Labor socialist coalition  in Australia are certainly poor losers.


----------



## OmegaTrader

noco said:


> It beats the $hit out of me why, on this forum, we are paying so much attention to American politics when we should be more concerned about what is going on Australia.
> 
> I have never ever known so much relentless  pain in the a$$ comments  shown in the USA and is it happening on a daily basis here in Australia and the US...Plenty of lies and propaganda.
> 
> Or maybe it is just a continuous socialist left wing bagging of Trump to discredit the man when ever they can.
> 
> You never hear this brainless group criticizing Obama or Hillary Clinton.......How one sided and biased can you get?
> 
> The Democrats in the US and the Green/Labor socialist coalition  in Australia are certainly poor losers.






1) Trump got in because he was better than hillary. Trump offered an alternative to mainstream establishment.Trumps alternative was seen as better than the establishment in clinoton.People like the underdog anti-establishment as the establishment is bureaucratic,inefficient and corrupt. That is why Obama beat Clinton in the democratic nomination, he was underdog African american non white establishment.

2) Inequity has been with society since civilisation

3) Hopefully technology increases efficiency which rises the tide for all boats and leads to economic growth. Inequity will not be solved but life is better than in the past mainly due to technology not equity. Unfortunately automation is part o that equation, which will eventually lead to erosion of the concept of work. Who/what controls the technology will be the key factor.

4) Us politics is interesting and flows through to the rest of the world and financial markets whether that is sentiment or actual economic outcomes .Trump was treated unfairly by the media like Hanson that is part of the reason for their popularity as the underdog. If the media gave them limited attention, then that would limit the fuel to the fire. Obama bailed out banks and was weak, he could have sacrificed his career to do the right thing but was to weak at the important time to reform the financial sector and bust some heads.Instead he chose to look after his self interest. Alot of people should have gone to jail and had their money confiscated, laws changed regulators punished for failure as well. Hilary is also corrupt with many scandals and financial backers bankrolling her, that is why people voted trump.


----------



## IFocus

howardbandy said:


> The US -- and to some extent the other developed nations that were on the winning side of WWII -- got strong economic recovery and growth following the war.  Along with that came attachment of health care to employment which is a large part of that problem.  But the point of this post is growth, rather than health care.
> 
> In the period from 1946 to 2000, the US grew much faster than the rest of the world, with US population at 5% of the world using 25% of the world's resources.  Post 2000, the previously undeveloped and underdeveloped nations have been expanding much faster than the US.  In the process, there is increased competition for resources and the prices are being bid up.  Without regard to the politics of other countries, the ratio of resource use to population is in the process of going from 5:1 toward 1:1.  I do not have an estimate of how far that process will go, but at the limit of 1:1 the US will have an 80% decrease in standard of living (use of resources) and / or a 400% increase in cost of living.
> 
> Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking, Fast and Slow," points out how easily we fool ourselves and how difficult it is for people to extrapolate change that is faster than linear.  Standard of living, cost of living, resource use, and energy use are all strongly correlated.  The US standard of living is decreasing, perhaps in absolute terms, but certainly relative to the rest of the world.  As a country, we cannot understand it and we cannot tolerate that it might be true.
> 
> Middle class Americans are being squeezed by the economics on the one hand, and by automation on the other.  Middle class incomes are going away as jobs are being replaced by automation.  Immigration into the country, legal or illegal, is not a big cause.  But it is the cause that is being blamed.  An analogy is poor kids stealing lunch money from rich kids, or gangs robbing houses of rich people and looting stores.  The rich people react by retreating into gated communities and stocking up on guns.  Trump seems to be playing this on a national scale -- building walls along borders and buying aircraft carriers.
> 
> He, Trump, has no personal credibility remaining.  Even if he is discredited and resigns, there remains a large portion of US lawmakers who are happy to go along with isolation and defense.  Which comes at the expense of health care, education, environment, infrastructure, ...
> 
> Today, Trump gets the blame.  His rude and uncivilized personal behavior, inflammatory rhetoric, and outright lying give us all a large target for our objections.  But the problem the US has is much larger than Trump.  Unfortunately, as long as he and his are in power, the real problems will not even be addressed, much less solved.
> 
> End of rant.  Thanks for listening.
> Best,  Howard




 Thanks Howard for your rant / post when I visited the US in the mid 80's I was shocked at the disparity in wealth and in your face people living on the streets.

I couldn't see how a wealthy country like the US could be so?

I now read commentators talking about the disappearance of jobs but isn't it just a clear case of of wealth distribution?


----------



## luutzu

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) Trump got in because he was better than hillary. Trump offered an alternative to mainstream establishment.Trumps alternative was seen as better than the establishment in clinoton.People like the underdog anti-establishment as the establishment is bureaucratic,inefficient and corrupt. That is why Obama beat Clinton in the democratic nomination, he was underdog African american non white establishment.
> 
> 2) Inequity has been with society since civilisation
> 
> 3) Hopefully technology increases efficiency which rises the tide for all boats and leads to economic growth. Inequity will not be solved but life is better than in the past mainly due to technology not equity. Unfortunately automation is part o that equation, which will eventually lead to erosion of the concept of work. Who/what controls the technology will be the key factor.
> 
> 4) Us politics is interesting and flows through to the rest of the world and financial markets whether that is sentiment or actual economic outcomes .Trump was treated unfairly by the media like Hanson that is part of the reason for their popularity as the underdog. If the media gave them limited attention, then that would limit the fuel to the fire. Obama bailed out banks and was weak, he could have sacrificed his career to do the right thing but was to weak at the important time to reform the financial sector and bust some heads.Instead he chose to look after his self interest. Alot of people should have gone to jail and had their money confiscated, laws changed regulators punished for failure as well. Hilary is also corrupt with many scandals and financial backers bankrolling her, that is why people voted trump.




You know how much people hate the establishment when they believe a patholigical liar like Trump over the same all bs from Clinton and other republican politicians.

I don't think anyone is expecting an equal society where all people are rich and poor alike. 

It's more of an equal opportunity. An equal start in life.

So when education are affordable to the poor, they can advance themselves through studies and training. When yo make education unaffordable to most but the very rich, that's tilting the table. Not only is that unfair, it mean the country is losing a lot of potential talent and ability the poor kids whose parents can barely afford food let alone a $50K loan for some higher learning that might not get them hired because their address is wrong.

Then there's healthcare. If getting a serious illness could bankrupt the entire family... wtf chance do people have to regain anything after that?

As to technology... if you look at many of today's technology at work... they're mostly to replace workers, not to empower them.

Besides the PC and some wrench and power tool, most machineries and robotics are designed to keep labour on its toe. Don't ask for too much, don't raise your voice or be replace by these bad boys.

As to a rising tide lifting all boats and yachts and canoes... we're assuming we're all on the same high sea when in reality, we're on a lake while our water are being pumped out to lift the yachts. 

This is not rhetoric. Just follow every budget and see if there's the shifting of wealth from the poor to the rich.


----------



## howardbandy

noco said:


> It beats the $hit out of me why, on this forum, we are paying so much attention to American politics when we should be more concerned about what is going on Australia.




I got the hint from the title of the thread -- containing both "Trump" and "US" -- which suggested to me that the thread is Intended to be about American politics.


----------



## howardbandy

IFocus said:


> Thanks Howard for your rant / post when I visited the US in the mid 80's I was shocked at the disparity in wealth and in your face people living on the streets.
> 
> I couldn't see how a wealthy country like the US could be so?
> 
> I now read commentators talking about the disappearance of jobs but isn't it just a clear case of of wealth distribution?




I think the disparities in wealth distribution are a serious problem.  Recent articles showing that a few people own as much wealth as half the people in the world point out how lopsided it is.  Perhaps the masses will rise up ala the 18th century French Revolution.  We live in Oregon -- which has a slightly liberal political tilt and a benign climate -- both of which contribute to living on the street.  So we see a lot of informal tent cities.  When I was a child, then living in Wisconsin, two things were different than now.  Each community had publicly supported facilities devoted to help indigent and mentally ill people; living on the street was described a "vagrancy" and was a misdemeanor crime.  Closing mental health facilities puts people who should be in treatment on the street and we see them regularly.  Some are scamming, but most are truly very ill and destitute.  It is not a pretty life.  A friend who is a professional social worker describes the details -- including that the elapsed time for any woman of any age between the time she sets up a street dwelling to the time of her first rape is less than 48 hours.  And the rapes continue.  In my opinion, the tent city people will not be effective warriors against wealth distribution. 

I believe that automation is the more serious problem as it relates to income and wealth distribution.  For example, a welding shop of a few years ago employed ten skilled "journeyman" welders.  Most of these welders went through an on-the-job apprenticeship of about seven years before qualifying and earning journeyman qualification.  Wages were good enough to support themselves and their family.  Robotic welders are faster than people and produce higher quality welds.  The shop replaced eight of the welders with two robots and one robot technician.  The robot technician might have been promoted from the previous work force.  Two of the previous welders stayed on.  Employment drops from ten to three; "problems" such as sick leave and union activities related to the people are reduced; product quality improves.  As measured by labor statisticians, productivity increases and is seen as a good thing.  The welding company makes more profit, all of which goes to the owners.   Those lost jobs will never come back.

Similar employment reducing automation is taking place throughout industries and services.  Artificial intelligence applications are better than MD-level neurologists at interpreting MRI, CATscan and Xray results.  AI legal assistants are better than trained attorneys at searching, interpreting, and applying case law.  Siri-type cell phone applications understand any speech from any person without specific training.  And, importantly, Siri draws on data bases to interpret and answer questions.  One smartphone app lets the user put the phone up to a sign in a shop window, say a Korean grocery, recognizes the foreign characters, and tells the phone's user what is on sale at what price.  

A few years ago truck drivers were highly paid members of the middle class.  Jobs that could be learned in a few months, required little education, and supported a family for a lifetime.  The US is now licensing over-the-road semi-trailer trucks to be completely driverless.  

Measures of a country's economy, such as GDP, have traditionally been the product of the number of people employed times the productivity per person.  There was a relatively narrow range of the profit added due to the productivity of each person.  We continue to measure productivity of an economy as a kind of "value added" metric.  The range has greatly expanded -- from say 200 welds per day to 2000 welds per day -- and the profit per weld has remained relatively constant.  So GDP rises, but people are not better off.  

Automation is the primary driver (no pun intended) of increased productivity.  A very small percentage of the people displaced from middle class jobs with reasonable wages have the ability to profit from the automation.  Most of the income and wealth goes to a very small portion of the populations.

Whether each of our social, fiscal, and political leaning is left, center, or right, these changes are inevitable.  As the say goes, resistance is futile.  The only option we have is to adapt as best we can. 

For traders, that direction is machine learning.

Best,  Howard


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> Whether each of our social, fiscal, and political leaning is left, center, or right, these changes are inevitable. As the say goes, resistance is futile. The only option we have is to adapt as best we can.




It's also the job of governments to ensure that the transition is smooth. If companies are making more profits at the expense of the workforce then company taxes will need to rise in order to retrain those people who have been made redundant. The reverse seems to be the case in the US and elsewhere, cutting corporate tax as much as they can and not compensating the consumer who buys the product.


----------



## howardbandy

SirRumpole said:


> It's also the job of governments to ensure that the transition is smooth. If companies are making more profits at the expense of the workforce then company taxes will need to rise in order to retrain those people who have been made redundant. The reverse seems to be the case in the US and elsewhere, cutting corporate tax as much as they can and not compensating the consumer who buys the product.




Sir R -- 

Why can't you be our president?


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> Sir R --
> 
> Why can't you be our president?




Not born in the USA . 

I think Americans are wonderful people if you get the right government, but at the moment I'm really glad that I am where I am.


----------



## Junior

noco said:


> You never hear this brainless group criticizing Obama or Hillary Clinton.......How one sided and biased can you get?




If Clinton had won the election then we would be critiquing her policies and performance.  She didn't.  She lost and is irrelevant in the scheme of things.  

Hence we discuss Trump.

I scanned through his budget proposals.  I applaud spending cuts, given their Debt to GDP is climbing to epic proportions last seen at the end of WWII.  The problem is, that the evil bastard is spending the lot X 2 on defence.  

This spending is under the guise of 'defeating ISIS' which presumably involves bombing the **** out of the middle east which will no doubt drive more men into the hands of violent extremists.


----------



## basilio

What is the view of Washington re Trump  ?  This analyis bears thinking.

Robert Reich's dead-on accurate assessement






By Keith Pickering 
Saturday Mar 18, 2017 · 5:26 AM AUSEST
  588 Comments (587 New)  
475
 

_Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton, still has a lot of friends in Washington on both sides of the aisle. He recently took a trip back to the capitol city and tweeted his spot-on accurate assessment of the nation and the administration.

1. Washington is more divided, angry, bewildered, and fearful — than I’ve ever seen it.

2. The angry divisions aren’t just Democrats versus Republicans. Rancor is also exploding inside the Republican Party

3. Republicans (and their patrons in big business) no longer believe Trump will give them cover to do what they want to do. They’re becoming afraid Trump is genuinely nuts, and he’ll pull the party down with him.

4. Many Republicans are also angry at Paul Ryan, whose replacement bill for Obamacare is considered by almost everyone on Capitol Hill to be incredibly dumb.

5. I didn’t talk with anyone inside the White House, but several who have had dealings with it called it a cesspool of intrigue and fear. Apparently everyone working there hates and distrusts everyone else. 

6. The Washington foreign policy establishment — both Republican and Democrat — is deeply worried about what’s happening to American foreign policy, and the worldwide perception of America being loony and rudderless. They think Trump is legitimizing far-right movements around the world. 

7. Long-time civil servants are getting ready to bail. If they’re close to retirement they’re already halfway out the door. Many in their 30s and 40s are in panic mode. 

8. Republican pundits think Bannon is even more unhinged than Trump, seeking to destroy democracy as we’ve known it.

9. Despite all this, no one I talked with thought a Trump impeachment likely, at least not any time soon — unless there’s a smoking gun showing Trump’s involvement in Russia’s intrusion into the election.

10. Many people asked, bewilderedly, “How did this [Trump] happen?” When I suggest it had a lot to do with the 35-year-long decline of incomes of the bottom 60 percent; the growing sense, ever since the Wall Street bailout, that the game is rigged; and the utter failure of both Republicans and Democrats to reverse these trends — they give me blank stares._

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/3/17/1644611/-Robert-Reich-s-dead-on-accurate-assessement


----------



## DB008

Dead on accurate assessment hey? LOL!!!


----------



## IFocus

Thanks for the nice summary Howard I remember when Regan closed all those public institutions that looked afer the mentally ill etc.


----------



## luutzu

Interesting interview on American Imperialism and the Fate of Rome.

A great quote from Mark Twain.


----------



## howardbandy

SirRumpole said:


> Not born in the USA .
> 
> I think Americans are wonderful people if you get the right government, but at the moment I'm really glad that I am where I am.



Hi Sir R --

Sorry for the confusion.  "Why can't you be our president?" is a rhetorical question asked of anyone who seems to have a reasonable approach to the problems we are all facing.  I hear it asked of some person several times every day -- without regard to whether they actually qualify to be elected.

Please accept the question as a compliment.

Best,  Howard


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> Hi Sir R --
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.  "Why can't you be our president?" is a rhetorical question asked of anyone who seems to have a reasonable approach to the problems we are all facing.  I hear it asked of some person several times every day -- without regard to whether they actually qualify to be elected.
> 
> Please accept the question as a compliment.
> 
> Best,  Howard




Yes I know Howard, thank you.

We Australians sometimes have an ironical sense of humour that takes others a while to recognise.

All the best with your efforts, you would make a good President yourself.


----------



## qldfrog

basilio said:


> 10. Many people asked, bewilderedly, “How did this [Trump] happen?” When I suggest it had a lot to do with the 35-year-long decline of incomes of the bottom 60 percent; the growing sense, ever since the Wall Street bailout, that the game is rigged; and the utter failure of both Republicans and Democrats to reverse these trends — they give me blank stares.



That is my real worry: after brexit, Trump...No lesson learnt.The major political parties, there, here, in Europe are so far removed from the real life and people they are supposed to represent that the only way out becomes radicalism in the form of right or left wing movement; A real control on tax rort, fair treatment for all,controlling migration, proper unbiaised news [so neither ABC nor fox news] and ending the corruption (loose term but a lobby group for me is corruption) would allow democracy to survive in the western world but no lesson learnt, let's blame the Russians..would be hilarious if not so sad.
Keeping the status quo is not an option anymore


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I know Howard, thank you.
> 
> We Australians sometimes have an ironical sense of humour that takes others a while to recognise.
> 
> All the best with your efforts, you would make a good President yourself.




No, Howard would make a great teacher or a tyrant. He wouldn't cut it as president in the current us democracy.

There's the enlightened prince. You'd want those kind of people to have absolute power. Then hope that once they retire they select another enlightened prince.

Today's president are all psychotic sellout. They know what they are put there for and who's buttering their bread. 

So you have Paul Ryan putting into office and given a couple of serious chance at becoming president/vp... and the douche recently said that healthcare is not a right... it's not a right to be given from the gov't.

It is a right if you have money and freedom of either feeding your family or pay top dollars for medicine and medical care. But to have the gov't run that insurance policy where everyone's health is provided for when they need it.. .that's "giving too much power to the gov't"... 

And ignore the part where a gov't run healthcare system is funded by taxpayers and provided to all members of Congress. That's some weird exception to the logic of freedom and fluff.


----------



## luutzu

Even Tucker, on Fox, find TrumpCare hard to believe.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Even Tucker, on Fox, find TrumpCare hard to believe.




Hey, Ryan's got a nice face that looks caring. He will make a good President one day.
Tucker on the other hand looks a bit like Jack Black,


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Hey, Ryan's got a nice face that looks caring. He will make a good President one day.
> Tucker on the other hand looks a bit like Jack Black,




That's why he was picked by some billionaire to do his bidding - Singer if I remember right.

A good looking wholesome face to sell bs to people. I mean, Tucker was wondering out loud, going off script a bit there, about why those making over $220K a year should get more tax cuts but those earning below that get zero, see their premium rises that they either pay or get off insurance. 

Ryan's response? Mehhh... Freedom, liberty.


----------



## Tisme

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-21/us-to-ban-electronics-on-certain-flights/8372358



> The US Government is temporarily barring passengers on certain nonstop US-bound flights from bringing laptops, iPads, cameras and some other electronics in carry-on luggage.
> 
> *Key Points:*
> 
> Ban revealed by Royal Jordanian Airlines
> Unclear exactly which countries will be affected by the ban
> Similar ban tried in Britain in 2006 led to increased theft from baggage
> The ban was revealed Monday in statements from Royal Jordanian Airlines and the official news agency of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> A US official said the ban would apply to nonstop flights to the US from 10 airports in eight countries in the Middle East and North Africa.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-21/us-to-ban-electronics-on-certain-flights/8372358




There'll be an added-on service, for a price, where potential terrorists can pay up and have their laptops and hardware stored properly in the cargo area.

Kinda like certain airport offering express check ins. Just sign up, declare yourself and non-terrorist and go.


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-21/us-to-ban-electronics-on-certain-flights/8372358




Hmm...So we're told lithium ion batteries should not go in the hold because they can cause fires, but now for "security" they want to put lithium ion batteries in the hold. 

If I was cynical, I'd say this was a bit of trade protectionism dressed up as preventing tewowism.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> Hmm...So we're told lithium ion batteries should not go in the hold because they can cause fires, but now for "security" they want to put lithium ion batteries in the hold.
> 
> If I was cynical, I'd say this was a bit of trade protectionism dressed up as preventing tewowism.




Didn't you read about the exploding headphones ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...t/news-story/e6573ceb08d52b6e0f9e4558bff23940


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump bill to wind back Obama Care fails in Congress.



Sounds like this President is a damp firecracker from the start.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/donald-trumps-healthcare-bill-pulled,-paul-ryan-says/8385970


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Trump bill to wind back Obama Care fails in Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like this President is a damp firecracker from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/donald-trumps-healthcare-bill-pulled,-paul-ryan-says/8385970



Lol. What a great negotiator he is! The GOP controls the house, senate and presidency and they couldn't get this passed.


----------



## bellenuit

McLovin said:


> Lol. What a great negotiator he is! The GOP controls the house, senate and presidency and they couldn't get this passed.




What's worse, he has the audacity to blame the Democrats for the debacle.


----------



## McLovin

bellenuit said:


> What's worse, he has the audacity to blame the Democrats for the debacle.




So do the halfwits who thought he was actually a legitimate choice for President. It's very funny watching them try and justify their stupidity.


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> So do the halfwits who thought he was actually a legitimate choice for President. It's very funny watching them try and justify their stupidity.



There wasn't much of a choice


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> There wasn't much of a choice




Yeah there was.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> Yeah there was.




Yes, Bernie.


----------



## wayneL

Bernie was not a candidate (thank ****)

And yes McLovin, there were better choices,  but not Hilarious C.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, Bernie.




It was a two horse race. The horse that belongs in the glue factory won.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Bernie was not a candidate (thank ****)
> 
> And yes McLovin, there were better choices,  but not Hilarious C.




Trump won shows that the American doesn't think the other choices are any better. And that's scary.

What's wrong with Sanders? I'm sure he won't be able to do half the stuff he planned if he was elected. But being a Senator all these decades and guess what people in his state thinks of him? Some 80%+ favourability rating.

Congress favourability is somewhere in the 5%, or is it 30%? 

Know how during the Great Depression, with Europe either going fascist or communist? FDR could either go fascist (state-corporate power) or watch as the US fall towards communism in a revolution? 

Lucky for everyone he chose a third option and gave the yank that New Deal where the rich gave up some so that the poor can feed themselves; break up monopolies, regulate the banks; strengthen unions; invest in everything so that people can work and earn a decent wage?

Obama and Clinton's DNC aren't FDR are they? Handed the whole country over to a total douche who's accelerating the empire towards fascism.

There was a fork in the road, Obama and Clinton gambled that the American people love going down the road that's been screwing them all these decades.


----------



## howardbandy

The Democratic Party had chosen Hillary Clinton to be their candidate well before the nominating convention.  The "super delegates" committed to her meant that neither Bernie Sanders, nor Elizabeth Warren, nor any other person had a chance to be the Democratic candidate.  Blame the rules of the Democratic Party for that.  Compound that by the arrogant, entitled approach Hillary had during the campaign.  

Donald Trump has been recognized as an untrustworthy sleaze for a very long time.  I am surprised that half of voters were not put off by his school-yard bully tactics, boorishness, lying, vanity, and empty claims.  He is certainly not a "man of the people."  His shouts about "change" gave no details, nor even indications of the direction of change.  What we got was chaos, not leadership.

When Donald met with Angela Merkel and extended his hand, did she wonder where it would land?  At that meeting, it was clear that Donald Trump was not "leader of the free world" and never would be.

There are other problems with American election process that made it possible for Trump to be president, and congress to have a Republican majority.  
... One is gerrymandering of congressional districts.  Districts are defined by local politicians and can be very non-representative.   
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ithout-gerrymandering/?utm_term=.5c2b23e03a53
... Another is the electoral college method of voting.  This has two parts -- A) Each congressional district is allocated one electoral vote, which compounds gerrymandering.  B)  The election is decided by electoral votes rather than popular votes.  
... Early reporting of election returns causes some people to think the election has already been decided and their vote does not matter. 

And still other problems allow the party in power to leverage their small and short-lived advantage into great and long-lasting influence.  Having control over nomination and confirmation of Justice of the Supreme Court is one example.  

When Justice Scalia died in February 2016, Merrick Garland was nominated to replace him by Democrat President Obama.  The Republican-controlled House of Representatives refused to hold confirmation hearings, so the seat remained unfilled.  Now, with Republican Donald Trump as President, Neil Gorsuch has been nominated and will probably be easily confirmed through Republican-controlled House and Senate.  Mr. Gorsuch is 49 years old, and his appointment is lifetime.  He is more conservative than Mr. Scalia and will give the court a conservative influence for 30 or so years.     

Best,  Howard


----------



## SirRumpole

howardbandy said:


> ... One is gerrymandering of congressional districts. Districts are defined by local politicians and can be very non-representative.




That astounds me. In Australia electoral districts are defined by an independent authority known as the Electoral Commission.

A number of things I have heard about the US electoral system makes me wonder if they are as truly Democratic as they say they are.


----------



## howardbandy

SirRumpole said:


> That astounds me. In Australia electoral districts are defined by an independent authority known as the Electoral Commission.
> 
> A number of things I have heard about the US electoral system makes me wonder if they are as truly Democratic as they say they are.




1.  As it should be.

2.  Nowhere near.


----------



## noco

howardbandy said:


> 1.  As it should be.
> 
> 2.  Nowhere near.




Howard you certainly have a vast range of books you are selling through Blue Owl Press and Quantitative Trading Systems.

Hope you have had lots of success while commenting on the Aussie Stock Forums.


----------



## James Robinson

I am not sure. But think he will turn out as a charismatic leader.


----------



## SirRumpole

James Robinson said:


> I am not sure. But think he will turn out as a charismatic leader.




So was Hitler.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> So was Hitler.




Good onya Rumpy......Got the fascist branding iron out again.


----------



## luutzu

Trump's son-in law "...to oversee a broad effort to overhaul the federal government".

A country should be run like a business, says Kushner. A great American business minded civil society like it hasn't been the case all these times.

Man, while talent does reside in the young... wouldn't you want someone with a bit of grey hair overhauling the entire federal gov't? Someone preferably with more talent than born well and marrying well?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-kushner-idUSKBN16Y19V


----------



## McLovin

The foresight of a Trump supporter. 



> When Helen Beristain told her husband she was voting for Donald Trump last year, he warned her that the Republican nominee planned to “get rid of the Mexicans.”
> 
> Defending her vote, Helen quoted Trump directly, noting that the tough-talking Republican said he would only kick the “bad hombres” out of the country, according to the South Bend Tribune.
> 
> Months later, Roberto Beristain — a successful businessman, respected member of his Indiana town and father of three American-born children — languishes in a detention facility with hardened criminals as he awaits his deportation back to Mexico, the country he left in 1998 when he entered the United States illegally.
> 
> “I wish I didn’t vote at all,” Helen Beristain told the Tribune. “I did it for the economy. We needed a change.”




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-law-abiding-husband/?utm_term=.7aa487b1e282


----------



## basilio

Donald the Gropers past is still alive and kicking. One of the women who he accused of lying about his sexual assault on her is proceeding with a defamation case. His lawyers are trying to say he is immune from prosecution..

There is an excellent video clip in the story of 11 women who cite their experiences of being assaulted by the Groper in Chief.

* Trump lawyers: president is immune from Apprentice contestant's lawsuit *
Lawyers say defamation suit brought by former contestant Summer Zervos should be barred as it may distract the president from performing his duties

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...it-summer-zervos-apprentice-sexual-harassment


----------



## basilio

McLovin said:


> The foresight of a Trump supporter.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-law-abiding-husband/?utm_term=.7aa487b1e282





That is a mean, scary story. That guy had to be one of the cleanest, most productive examples of an immigrant you could find. And he is being deported, his family destroyed and probably bankrupted, his business finished , his employees out of a job.  So much for deporting the "bad guys"

This is the Piece of xxxx his wife voted for in November.


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> Donald the Gropers past is still alive and kicking. One of the women who he accused of lying about his sexual assault on her is proceeding with a defamation case. His lawyers are trying to say he is immune from prosecution..
> 
> There is an excellent video clip in the story of 11 women who cite their experiences of being assaulted by the Groper in Chief.
> 
> * Trump lawyers: president is immune from Apprentice contestant's lawsuit *
> Lawyers say defamation suit brought by former contestant Summer Zervos should be barred as it may distract the president from performing his duties
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...it-summer-zervos-apprentice-sexual-harassment



OFF TOPIC.
I believe Bill Clinton did the same thing and nothing was said except the Monica Lowinski affair.


----------



## basilio

noco said:


> OFF TOPIC.
> I believe Bill Clinton did the same thing and nothing was said except the Monica Lowinski affair.



You can believe what you like Noco but it rarely matches up with the truth.

What makes this story well and truly on topic.

1)* Character.* It isn't the fact that Trump is womaniser. It is his abuse of power and position to assault any woman he wants.  This is what he said in his infamous interview
2) *He is a serial abuser* . After the interview came out scores of additional women  gave examples of Donald Trump assaulting them in various situations. Eleven of those woman chose to take part in an action to bring Donald Trump to account.
3)* He lies and lies and lies. *When the original case was brought up Trump just said all of these  statements were fictitious, made up.  That each and every one of the complainants was a liar. Well at least one of the complaints has decided this in itself is a libel and is demanding a withdrawal of Trumps statement that she was lying. In effect acknowledging the truth of the complaint.


----------



## bellenuit

Interesting how the far right, Fox, Alex Jones etc. always scream about how corrupt Obama and the Clintons are. There allegations are not borne out by facts. I presume in all cases the prison sentences were commuted .....


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> You can believe what you like Noco but it rarely matches up with the truth.
> 
> What makes this story well and truly on topic.
> 
> 1)* Character.* It isn't the fact that Trump is womaniser. It is his abuse of power and position to assault any woman he wants.  This is what he said in his infamous interview
> 2) *He is a serial abuser* . After the interview came out scores of additional women  gave examples of Donald Trump assaulting them in various situations. Eleven of those woman chose to take part in an action to bring Donald Trump to account.
> 3)* He lies and lies and lies. *When the original case was brought up Trump just said all of these  statements were fictitious, made up.  That each and every one of the complainants was a liar. Well at least one of the complaints has decided this in itself is a libel and is demanding a withdrawal of Trumps statement that she was lying. In effect acknowledging the truth of the complaint.




Just more Trump bashing by the socialist left.....What ever it takes to discredit the man....And your link of course in on the way.


----------



## noco

Joe Hockey, our ambassador to the USA, is pleading for those Trump bashers in both the USA and  Australia to ease up a bit.....Give the man a fair go in the true Australian tradition.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...n/news-story/d3fffe9d93f98163a74fa6e8708ccf08


----------



## explod

noco said:


> Joe Hockey, our ambassador to the USA, is pleading for those Trump bashers in both the USA and  Australia to ease up a bit.....Give the man a fair go in the true Australian tradition.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...n/news-story/d3fffe9d93f98163a74fa6e8708ccf08



Actually agree with you on this Noco.  I'm no Trump fan but the Democrats,  CIA, ISIS unit set up to protect the petro dollar is much worse and behind all major wars since the 1960's.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Joe Hockey, our ambassador to the USA, is pleading for those Trump bashers in both the USA and  Australia to ease up a bit.....Give the man a fair go in the true Australian tradition.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...n/news-story/d3fffe9d93f98163a74fa6e8708ccf08




We're stuck with him for four years and what he does is irrelevant unless it affects us, and there is no point in our politicians or media sticking the boot in, so yes let's just sit back and see what happens for a while.


----------



## luutzu

A good summary of Trump's first 75 days.

Scary when it's summed up like this.


----------



## noco

luutzu said:


> A good summary of Trump's first 75 days.
> 
> Scary when it's summed up like this.





I checked out Noam Chomsky on google and after reading many of his articles, I am convinced  he is a rusted on Democrat who is out to discredit Trump whenever he can...What else would you expect.......He is comparable to our ABC in trying damage One Nation.


----------



## Tisme

O OH

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...e&tse_id=INF_901972c019a311e7bc74f3397ca17eb9


----------



## luutzu

noco said:


> I checked out Noam Chomsky on google and after reading many of his articles, I am convinced  he is a rusted on Democrat who is out to discredit Trump whenever he can...What else would you expect.......He is comparable to our ABC in trying damage One Nation.




He's too smart and honest a man to play partisan politics noco. You should read or watch his thousands of lectures and hundreds of books and essays.. see how he's one of the very few honest scholar and activist around.

He was quite a distinguished professor of Linguistic, breaking new grounds in the field and getting tenure in his 30s at Harvard. Then got politically active against the Vietnam War, and I think, fought in US Civil Rights movement.

As you might be aware, it was JFK, a Democrat, then LBJ, another Democrat, that got the VN War started. Chomsky was against that butchering of innocent people "to stop Communism" and almost went to prison for his hippy dippy activism.

I think he did praise Trump for wanting to ease tension with Russia. Contrast that to the Democrats and its media outlet all hammering Trump for being a Russian stooge.

Know who damage One Nation and all other "patriotic" parties around the world? Donald J Trump.

He didn't mean to, but it seem that voters in Australia and in Europe watch in horror the kind of crap a nutjob like Trump is doing... decides it's best not to play with that kind of stuff. Hence, One Nation didn't win in WA and will lose more seats in any upcoming election. Same with France, the Dutch etc.


----------



## wayneL

Chomskey is a leftist and a sophist,  'nuff said.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> I checked out Noam Chomsky on google and after reading many of his articles, I am convinced  he is a rusted on Democrat who is out to discredit Trump whenever he can...What else would you expect.......He is comparable to our ABC in trying damage One Nation.



The stupid thing about your comment is that you actually (not realising it of course) agree with his views on freedom of speech.  Also with your views about "Fabian media control" you are also agreeing with his views on how he believes political groups use the media to manufacture consent  and for silencing/marginalising contrary viewpoints.

It just goes to show,  if you read something (I'll just believe you read it because it's easier) with the purpose of disagreeing it you will actually miss some or a lot of the actual content.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> Chomskey is a leftist and a sophist,  'nuff said.



See above.  Most likely applies to you as well.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Chomskey is a leftist and a sophist,  'nuff said.




He's a modern day Machiavelli. 

i.e. he doesn't buy bs. He actually study and analyse history and politics. Tell it how it is.

Only difference between Chomsky and a Machiavelli is that Chomsky chose not to serve a prince; but chose to serve the people, the public, with his knowledge.

If that makes him a "leftist", OK. To most, that just make him a decent human being. You know, caring for other people.

And no, the man have no sophistry in him. I've listen to quite a few of his lectures. They're all fact-based, stated with some sarcasm now and then, some humour, but none of the theatrics like Obama or JFK or even a Martin Luther King Jr.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> He's a modern day Machiavelli.



A Narcissist, a Psychopath and a Machiavellian Walk into a Bar.

The bartender asks, ‘who has the darkest personality out of you three?’ The Narcissist says ‘me’, the Psychopath says, ‘I don’t care’ and the Mach says ‘it’s whoever I want it to be’.


----------



## wayneL

Ves said:


> See above.  Most likely applies to you as well.



Nup, and you wouldn't say that if you understood most of my points.

And as much as I may agree with many of his points, Chomsky simply must be recognised as such.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> Nup, and you wouldn't say that if you understood most of my points.



Ok,  so how are your views on freedom of speech any different to Chomsky's?



wayneL said:


> And as much as I may agree with many of his points, Chomsky simply must be recognised as such.



Why does he need to be recognised as anything?  Really,  and I've said it before,  all I'm telling you is that the left/right distinction is fairly pointless if you are serious on engaging in debate in a serious matter.  The dichotomy is nothing more than a silly label to distract the masses and give them a team for which to cheer.


----------



## basilio

What if Hilary Clinton won ? Lets imagine an alternative world where the candidate with the most votes and the best looks was now Prez  (Your allowed to get a couple of double Scotchs or a spliff to help this trip...)

Anyway some bright spark has been constructing a satirical website on the premise that Hilary Clinton is now Prez. Lots of juicy"stories" based on what has happened to date  and Hilaries original policy statements.
Just one story as a fun example.

*Fox News says accusations of racism are distracting viewers from its primary journalistic mission, protecting sexual predators*
Domestic Policy

_MANHATTAN -- On Tuesday, Fox News spokeswoman Irina Briganti angrily denounced media organizations for labelling Bill O'Reilly, the network's biggest star, a racist, calling accusations of racism, "a distraction from Fox News' primary journalistic mission: protecting sexual predators."

In an interview with the New York Times, Briganti acknowledged The O'Reilly Factor host contributed to the media firestorm by making a series of flagrantly racist comments about Rep. Maxine Waters last week. 

"But O'Reilly can't defined by racism. That's just how he pays the bills. His real passion is sexual predation," she said, pointing to the five Fox News employees who have sued O'Reilly for sexual harassment. 

Briganti said Fox News' misogyny "extends far beyond O'Reilly."  She insisted that the importance of exploiting, harassing, punishing and sexually assaulting women who work for Fox News, "is a value shared by men at every level of the company, and one that's fiercely defended by every old white man at the very top of the organization." She pointed to Fox News's longtime chairman Roger Ailes, whose unparalleled career of sexual predation "ensured four generations of young women at Fox never had access to the feminist gateway drug: the sensation of physical safety."

Finally, Briganti pointed to the network's unflagging support of failed GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying "he basically confessed to being a serial rapist on TV, and no one here gave a damn. Except for Megyn Kelly. And that's why she had to die." 

https://www.hillarybeattrump.org/ho...rnalistic-mission-protecting-sexual-predators_


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> A Narcissist, a Psychopath and a Machiavellian Walk into a Bar.
> 
> The bartender asks, ‘who has the darkest personality out of you three?’ The Narcissist says ‘me’, the Psychopath says, ‘I don’t care’ and the Mach says ‘it’s whoever I want it to be’.




That's quite a clever put down there McGee. Too bad it's taken out of context seeing how I did define what I meant by a Machiavelli and Machiavellian. 

As you certainly know, being a historian and such, Machiavelli get to be that prince of re'al politik because he show the world as it is, not as it ought to be.

Which btw, he's some 1,700 years behind the Chinese Legalist political philosopher Han Fei Tzu. Whose treatises on law, order, politics and statecraft was distilled from his studies of some 500 years of the Spring and Autumn, and the Warring States period after the fall of the Zhou empire.

Han's work was similar to Machiavelli's Discourses on the first ten books of Livy about the rise and fall of the Roman empire, but was done earlier and slightly more superior, if you ask me  But that's probably due to the rich histories and incredible strategies the warlords he studied demonstrated. Enabling his contemporary (and conqueror) - Chin Shi Huang Di - to use it to unified and establish Chin'a. 

Where was I... never mind.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> The stupid thing about your comment is that you actually (not realising it of course) agree with his views on freedom of speech.  Also with your views about "Fabian media control" you are also agreeing with his views on how he believes political groups use the media to manufacture consent  and for silencing/marginalising contrary viewpoints.
> 
> It just goes to show,  if you read something (I'll just believe you read it because it's easier) with the purpose of disagreeing it you will actually miss some or a lot of the actual content.




Now how did you work that out?....The left media in the USA are also riddled with Fabian indoctrinated goons just as the ABC in Australia.

You certainly work on a lot on assumption which in many cases will get you into trouble.

Control the media and you control the naive who swallow the BS.


----------



## wayneL

Ves said:


> Ok,  so how are your views on freedom of speech any different to Chomsky's?
> 
> 
> Why does he need to be recognised as anything?  Really,  and I've said it before,  all I'm telling you is that the left/right distinction is fairly pointless if you are serious on engaging in debate in a serious matter.  The dichotomy is nothing more than a silly label to distract the masses and give them a team for which to cheer.



Forgive me, I might be losing the train of discussion as i check in between jobs. They're probably not different but I never argued that they were. 

My point was that Chomsky's logic stems from a particular leftist ideology, the appeal of which does not reside in the reality of the spectrum of human psychology, the sophistry introduced in the argument that it does.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> My point was that Chomsky's logic stems from a particular leftist ideology, the appeal of which does not reside in the reality of the spectrum of human psychology, the sophistry introduced in the argument that it does.



And by you making this statement with absolutely no reference to his body of work or any of his ideas (not even in general!!!),  could one not argue that you yourself are using a kind of sophistry (or empty rhetoric)?  

So again what's the difference?


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Now how did you work that out?....The left media in the USA are also riddled with Fabian indoctrinated goons just as the ABC in Australia.
> 
> You certainly work on a lot on assumption which in many cases will get you into trouble.
> 
> Control the media and you control the naive who swallow the BS.



There you go again.  Another example of my observation!!


----------



## wayneL

Ves said:


> And by you making this statement with absolutely no reference to his body of work or any of his ideas (not even in general!!!),  could one not argue that you yourself are using a kind of sophistry (or empty rhetoric)?
> 
> So again what's the difference?




His body of work is well known Ves.

I'm not going to teach people to suck sausages.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> There you go again.  Another example of my observation!!



LMAO. What observations?


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> LMAO. What observations?



That without realising it,  you actually share some views with Chomsky.

That's the problem with bandying around terms like "Lefty" "Fabian" "Communist"  without due consideration.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> That without realising it,  you actually share some views with Chomsky.
> 
> That's the problem with bandying around terms like "Lefty" "Fabian" "Communist"  without due consideration.




"Lefty" "Fabian" "Communist......They are all the same including the Green/Labor socialist left coalition....They can't live with each other and they cannot live with out each other.

Have a look at the list as who are Fabians  right here in Australia including Bill Shorten.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Forgive me, I might be losing the train of discussion as i check in between jobs. They're probably not different but I never argued that they were.
> 
> My point was that Chomsky's logic stems from a particular leftist ideology, the appeal of which does not reside in the reality of the spectrum of human psychology, the sophistry introduced in the argument that it does.




Come on Sifu.

The man is just an honest scholar. He study history, original/declassified state planning documents, then tell us what was said, what was done.

There's no Left or Right agenda. Just facts, with plenty of reference to original documents for those who want to check and challenge him. And trust me, most of the stuff he said about the US are so ugly and unbelievable that any mistake or dishonesty on his party will be jumped on like white on rice.

He tells us the world as it is. Not giving excuses or glossing over details to side one way or the other.

The only thing "Left" about him, if we can call it Left, is his sense of justice, his respect for civil liberty, human rights and that thing call Democracy. He's in that tradition of people like Bertrand Russell, Albert Einstein, Mark Twain, Howard Zinn...

With his level of intellect and knowledge of how the world works, he could very easily work for the US gov't, advising and consulting to it. Much lesser "mind" have done it and they're all filthy rich and mighty powerful. Take a look at Kissinger and the likes of Alan Derschsowitz [?] - a bunch of amoral war criminals and servants to power and privileged.

The fact that no Democrats or Republican ever ask for his service tells you something about him.


----------



## basilio

_"With his level of intellect and knowledge of how the world works, he could very easily work for the US gov't, advising and consulting to it. Much lesser "mind" have done it and they're all filthy rich and mighty powerful. Take a look at Kissinger and the likes of Alan Derschsowitz [?] - a bunch of amoral war criminals and servants to power and privileged.

The fact that no Democrats or Republican ever ask for his service tells you something about him."_

That is dangerously perceptive luutzu. He is too clear and too honest to be acceptable to either political party.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> _"With his level of intellect and knowledge of how the world works, he could very easily work for the US gov't, advising and consulting to it. Much lesser "mind" have done it and they're all filthy rich and mighty powerful. Take a look at Kissinger and the likes of Alan Derschsowitz [?] - a bunch of amoral war criminals and servants to power and privileged.
> 
> The fact that no Democrats or Republican ever ask for his service tells you something about him."_
> 
> That is dangerously perceptive luutzu. He is too clear and too honest to be acceptable to either political party.




He was lucky he got tenure at MIT else he'd been fired and have all his political critiques completely disappeared long before he got serious into it. What a great lost to humanity that would be.

In one of this Q&A on media and propaganda, he gave a warning to young idealists who want to take on the state and speak truth to power. It's quite an incredible story.

There's this young fellow by the name of Norman Finklestein. A real intellectual. Smart as heck. And he was interested in everything about Israel and its history.

The guy was doing his PhD and came over this book on Jewish history that was widely praised by every "intellectual" and media in the country. The book basically "prove" how there's no such thing as the Palestinian people, how the Jews have always been living in what was historical Palestine.. and proves it with facts, history, archaeology etc. etc. All to justify a greater Israel where the West Bank and Gaza and such are all theirs.

So young Norman went through the book... and actually turn to the references page... then actually go look up each reference. 

He went through half the book and found it's a fraud. Wrote a draft of his findings, sent it to all the established intellectuals on the subject he could find, and only one replied to him - Chomsky.

He asked if what he found is right; what should he do. Should he continue with it.

Chomsky said he is right, he should continue with his work because it is important and it will save lives. BUT... but know what he's up against. Know that he's going to be screwed. So it's up to him.

The guy kept at it, bugging everyone, upsetting everyone. Then found out that his PhD supervisor wouldn't speak to him; the university wouldn't even read his thesis so they wouldn't be granting him his doctorate.

They eventually gave in because he won't stop bugging them... So they sign off on his doctorate but didn't bother to read his thesis.

So with that doctorate, a massive intellect and all round honesty... the guy couldn't find any work, anywhere. He ends up moving back home with the folks, work part time as some assistant teaching at a nursing home for the mentally challenged.

But being smart and idealistic, he kept on with his analysis, sending it to all newspaper and publishers etc. until one day "they" call him in.

Made an offer that if he quit this crusade about this one stupid book, they'll offer him tenure, a proper job with good pay. 

He told them to screw themselves. 

Eventually found a job at some uni that haven't heard about his crusade. Was about to be given tenure when the Israeli lobby, through Alan Dersherwitz [?], speak to the uni and he was pretty much cast aside, no tenure and eventually "quit". 

Contrast that to what's her face.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Come on Sifu.
> 
> The man is just an honest scholar. He study history, original/declassified state planning documents, then tell us what was said, what was done.
> 
> There's no Left or Right agenda. Just facts, with plenty of reference to original documents for those who want to check and challenge him. And trust me, most of the stuff he said about the US are so ugly and unbelievable that any mistake or dishonesty on his party will be jumped on like white on rice.
> 
> He tells us the world as it is. Not giving excuses or glossing over details to side one way or the other.
> 
> The only thing "Left" about him, if we can call it Left, is his sense of justice, his respect for civil liberty, human rights and that thing call Democracy. He's in that tradition of people like Bertrand Russell, Albert Einstein, Mark Twain, Howard Zinn...
> 
> With his level of intellect and knowledge of how the world works, he could very easily work for the US gov't, advising and consulting to it. Much lesser "mind" have done it and they're all filthy rich and mighty powerful. Take a look at Kissinger and the likes of Alan Derschsowitz [?] - a bunch of amoral war criminals and servants to power and privileged.
> 
> The fact that no Democrats or Republican ever ask for his service tells you something about him.




I'm not doubting his honesty or even being critical, Grasshopper. Merely stating his political ideology, social libertrianism, and remarking that one must see his work through that filter.

In fact I think social libertarianism is laudable and would be a lovely system to live in, but that ain't gonna happen. The reason is that there are always totalitarian ideologues, such as we see with the likes of basilio, that will transmogrify true vine socialism (as argued by Chomskey) into a Soviet or Maoist Hell.


----------



## Ves

wayneL said:


> In fact I think social libertarianism is laudable and would be a lovely system to live in, but that ain't gonna happen. The reason is that there are always totalitarian ideologues, such as we see with the likes of basilio, that will transmogrify true vine socialism (as argued by Chomskey) into a Soviet or Maoist Hell.



Libertarianism whether "Left" or "Right"  always has its foundations in a distrust of authority or power.  That's my whole point here.  I'm sorry if I'm preaching to the choir,  but I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread yet.   One of the major differences is how the power is distributed or coerced on an economic basis. Socialist systems fall more and more into abolishing private ownership in favour of more co-operative or communal approaches to controlling the means of production.   The alternate capitalist approaches are generally laissez-faire and have a very strong focus on private property rights.  Both of these fit into anarchist philosophies that eschew central government.

The only reason I mentioned this in the first place is because it appeared Noco didn't understand this.  I don't really care if he doesn't want to understand it,  but I feel like the whole 'right' vs 'left' thing on this forum is a bit overdone at times.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> Libertarianism whether "Left" or "Right"  always has its foundations in a distrust of authority or power.  That's my whole point here.  I'm sorry if I'm preaching to the choir,  but I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread yet.   One of the major differences is how the power is distributed or coerced on an economic basis. Socialist systems fall more and more into abolishing private ownership in favour of more co-operative or communal approaches to controlling the means of production.   The alternate capitalist approaches are generally laissez-faire and have a very strong focus on private property rights.  Both of these fit into anarchist philosophies that eschew central government.
> 
> The only reason I mentioned this in the first place is because it appeared Noco didn't understand this.  I don't really care if he doesn't want to understand it,  but I feel like the whole 'right' vs 'left' thing on this forum is a bit overdone at times.




How wrong you are.....I understand it a lot more than you give me credit.

It is your attitude that no one else is allowed an opinion but you....It is your way or the hyway.....When you don't like my opinion you resort to the socialist trait of name calling and ridicule to silence  your opponent so you can dominate the scene.

Time to change your attitude to others on this Forum.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Time to change your attitude to others on this Forum.



I'm not going to change just because you are demanding it.

It sounds like you're trying to silence my dissenting opinion more than I'm trying to silence your own.  You can post what you want and how you want,  but I'm well within my rights to reply in any way I see fit.


----------



## Tisme

Ves said:


> Libertarianism whether "Left" or "Right"  always has its foundations in a distrust of authority or power. ..............
> 
> 
> The only reason I mentioned this in the first place is because it appeared Noco didn't understand this.  I don't really care if he doesn't want to understand it,  but I feel like the whole 'right' vs 'left' thing on this forum is a bit overdone at times.




It's an implicit core that Australians have a distrust and distaste for authority given its roots. i.e goes without saying.

Many of us are wandering around in a disoriented state looking for landmarks so we can chart a course for the home we once new. It's hard to get a clear view because there are so many foreign attitudes and so many misere ouverts gambling our freedoms obscuring the retreat. It's like a minefield of don't hurt people's feelings and puppy pampering.

It takes someone intellectually brilliant like me to understand this, but there is a belligerent few who are too busy looking for an arcane enemy to blame instead of in their own backyard veggie garden.


----------



## Ves

Tisme said:


> It's an implicit core that Australians have a distrust and distaste for authority given its roots. i.e goes without saying.



It's not really an inherent Australian trait,  it's part of the human condition.    However different ideologies and cultures do deal with it differently,  perhaps that is what you mean.

It's part of the Oedipal dilemma.   _Civilisation and its Discontents_ explains it better than I ever will.


----------



## noco

Ves said:


> I'm not going to change just because you are demanding it.
> 
> It sounds like you're trying to silence my dissenting opinion more than I'm trying to silence your own.  You can post what you want and how you want,  but I'm well within my rights to reply in any way I see fit.



Then start acting like a real man.


----------



## Tisme

If Obama governed exactly the same way as he did, but under the banner of the Republican Party would he be a champion of the right?


----------



## luutzu

US Navy strike group on its way to Western Pacific to confront "North Korea".

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-korea-idUSKBN17A0V5?il=0


How come "we" always seem to be threatened by countries that can be bombed, droned at will? The scariest, most evil, most deadly enemy of "ours" always seem to be those whom we strike and they can't defend themselves or retaliate in kind.

Now the US is going to confront North Korea. Right after Trump just ordered 70 tomahawk missiles on another country within hours of sketchy evidence of WMD. 

The US did try to take over NK soon after WW2. The Chinese sent in their Red Army and pushed them back. I mean, China didn't have much of any firepower back then, and they still did not permit North Korea to be overrun by what was undeniably the world's only superpower with nuclear freaking power.

To now see the Yellow Emperor ordering a hit because he saw something he didn't like; a hit against a proxy of another nuclear power. Imagine the kind of rethink China's military must be on now. Not just all those bases and hardware that currently surrounds China's seaboards, but a new commander in chief with no real sense of history to see the consequences of military action, sending in another aircraft carrier battle group. 

Scary.


----------



## SirRumpole

Pretty rude of Caesar not to invite the leader of one of the US's oldest allies to the White House.

Insulting I reckon. Looks like we aren't worthy of the great man's interest since Mal probably doesn't play golf.


----------



## noco

Just when I thought it was safe to go into the water, the bloody shark appears again.


----------



## SirRumpole

noco said:


> Just when I thought it was safe to go into the water, the bloody shark appears again.




Sharks don't really exist you know.

They are just a Fabian conspiracy to stop people enjoying themselves.


----------



## noco

SirRumpole said:


> Sharks don't really exist you know.
> 
> They are just a Fabian conspiracy to stop people enjoying themselves.




How very true your are for once.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Sharks don't really exist you know.
> 
> They are just a Fabian conspiracy to stop people enjoying themselves.




I knew the greens and commies were behind preserving sharks for a reason!


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty rude of Caesar not to invite the leader of one of the US's oldest allies to the White House.
> 
> Insulting I reckon. Looks like we aren't worthy of the great man's interest since Mal probably doesn't play golf.




Caesar meet vassal state and colony in their order of importance. That and there are only 5 days per working week and there's a lot of paper to sign, even without reading them first.

That and a total of 1 of those 5 days are in preparation to fly to and back from his Mar-a-Lago for golfing and general business dealings with who and for what reason are none of the American public's business.

Seriously, I saw a clip of Trump signing his executive order to permit the DAPL pipeline. He signed it, held it up to show the world... then he reacts to what he just sign like he haven't read it before. 

Creating hundreds of jobs, wow, that is a lot of jobs. A pipeline that's thousands of miles long, wow that is a lot of miles folks. 

His kids and business partners are making a killing though.


----------



## basilio

I reckon this story hammers home Drumps most potent success - weaponising gibberish. He has so trashed the English language nothing he says can be taken seriously -* or used to show how dishonest he is.* It makes very dark sense.

*100 days of gibberish – Trump has weaponised nonsense *
Lindy West
The Trump White House approaches language with the same roughshod entitlement he’s applying to the presidency. His sloppy lies and vague promises must not stop us holding him to account




President Donald Trump in the Oval Office last Friday, in a portrait to mark his 100th day in office, which will be on 29 April. Photograph: Andrew Harnik/AP
Tuesday 25 April 2017 22.09 AEST   Last modified on Wednesday 26 April 2017 07.00 AEST

With only a week left of his first 100 days in office – traditionally a milestone for American presidents – Donald Trump sat down with the Associated Press to reflect on his accomplishments (sic) and preemptively brag about future ones. This remarkable artefact, a transcript of which AP then released in full, captures, more than any other piece of media (except perhaps Trump’s Twitter feed), the unifying ethos of the Trump White House: weaponised nonsense.

The interview is deep, pure, tangy, umami Trump. I felt like I was reading one of those children’s stories in which a villain’s soul is written into a book and imprisoned there for ever – only without, in America’s case, such a happy ending. Donald Trump remains in the Oval Office, making decisions about whom to explode next (in the interview he calls this responsibility “the bigness of it all”), not gathering dust on a sorcerer’s shelf. Bad! (Not good.)

Trump lies relentlessly about his achievements (claiming, for example, that he’s “mostly there” on his 100-day plan, despite appearing not to know what it is), admits he “never realised” how big a job it is to be president, forgets how many missiles he fired at Syria, even though he got the number right only 17 words earlier, and compares his TV ratings favourably to those for 9/11. In my second favourite moment in the interview – the first being when he inexplicably drops the word “hamlets” – Trump describes a meeting with Democratic congressman Elijah Cummings:  (Please keep reading. It's so worth it..)
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sh-weaponised-white-house-language-presidency


----------



## skc

skc said:


> I can imagine Trump kind of regretting what he's got himself into. It's one thing to run a campaign, send a few crazy tweets and watch the reactions. It's also easy to insult certain groups of people without actually having to face them and bear the consequence. He could have been a happy-go-lucky idiot billionaire... but now he's definitely lost a lot of that carefree-ness.




Well he's made it past 3 month...



> Donald Trump has admitted he misses his previous life because he thought being president "would be easier" while reflecting on his first 100 days in the White House.
> 
> "I loved my previous life. I had so many things going," Trump told _Reuters_.
> 
> "This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier."
> 
> 
> Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/...president-would-be-easier#rBFmVYmbQQ77PvD1.99


----------



## Tisme

skc said:


> Well he's made it past 3 month...




You're quoting an article about a congenital liar. Try following him in tweeter to gauge his chaotic mind .....fueling the constant study revisions and amendments of psychosis in aging males.


----------



## basilio

Couple of stories today underline the risks Donald Trump brings to the position of President and his incapacity to think through the complex issues he faces. Well worth reading in full.

* 'Fake but accurate': Another reason to worry about decision-making in Trump's White House *

*Philip Bump*
1,366 reading now

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In the Trump White House, "good enough for government work" has developed a whole new meaning.

_Politico journalist Shane Goldmacher outlined a remarkable scenario in a new piece this week that unfolded recently in the West Wing. Deputy national security adviser K.T. McFarland apparently provided Trump with copies of two Time magazine covers depicting scientific concerns about a changing climate: Worries about a new ice age in the 1970s and then global warming in 2008.

Trump fumed - until staff poked around on the web and realised that the "ice age" cover was fake.

"Staff chased down the truth and intervened before Trump tweeted or talked publicly about it," Goldmacher wrote in his piece.

_


----------



## basilio

The second story on the dangers Donald Trump creates as President explores him giving the Russian foreign minister highly classified information that exposes intelligence assets to great danger. 

May 16 2017 - 8:30AM
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 Print 
* Donald Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister *

* Greg Miller and Greg Jaffe*
1,847 reading now

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*Washington:* US President Donald Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former US officials, who said that Trump's disclosures jeopardised a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information Trump relayed had been provided by a US partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the US government, officials said.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...-minister-and-ambassador-20170515-gw5jh1.html


----------



## noco

basilio said:


> The second story on the dangers Donald Trump creates as President explores him giving the Russian foreign minister highly classified information that exposes intelligence assets to great danger.
> 
> May 16 2017 - 8:30AM
> Save
> Print
> * Donald Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister *
> 
> * Greg Miller and Greg Jaffe*
> 1,847 reading now
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> 
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> 
> *Washington:* US President Donald Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former US officials, who said that Trump's disclosures jeopardised a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.
> 
> The information Trump relayed had been provided by a US partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the US government, officials said.
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...-minister-and-ambassador-20170515-gw5jh1.html




*White House denies Donald Trump revealed secrets to Russia*
*Staff writers, Reuters, News Corp Australia Network
4 minutes ago
THE White House says allegations by two US officials that US President Donald Trump disclosed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister about a planned Islamic State operation during their meeting last week are false. 

Both officials say the intelligence was supplied by a US ally in the fight against the militant group.

But the White House says the claims are false.

“The president only discussed the common threats that both countries faced,” deputy national security adviser Dina Powell said.

Reacting to the news, first reported by The Washington Post, the Senate’s No. 2 Democrat, Dick Durbin, called Trump’s conduct “dangerous” and reckless.”

The Republican head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Bob Corker, called the allegations “very, very troubling” if true.





media_cameraUS President Donald J. Trump with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov during their meeting at the White House in Washington, DC last week. Picture: Russian Foreign Ministry.
One of the officials said the intelligence was classified Top Secret and also held in a secure “compartment” to which only a handful of intelligence officials have access.

After Trump disclosed the information, which one of the officials described as spontaneous, officials immediately called the CIA and the National Security Agency, both of which have agreements with a number of allied intelligence services, and informed them what had happened.

While the president has the authority to disclose even the most highly classified information at will, in this case he did so without consulting the ally that provided it, which threatens to jeopardise what they called a longstanding intelligence-sharing agreement, the US officials said. The Washington Post said that Trump shared the information with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak.

“The president and the foreign minister reviewed common threats from terrorist organisations to include threats to aviation,” H.R. McMaster, the national security adviser, who participated in the meeting said.





media_cameraUS Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, right, with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in the Treaty Room of the State Department in Washington, DC last week.
“At no time were any intelligence sources or methods discussed and no military operations were disclosed that were not already known publicly.”

US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said in a statement that Trump and Lavrov discussed a broad range of subjects, “among which were common efforts and threats regarding counter-terrorism.” During his Oval Office meeting with Lavrov and Kislyak, Trump went off-script and began describing details about an Islamic State threat related to the use of laptop computers on aircraft, the officials told the Post.

In his conversations with the Russian officials, Trump appeared to be boasting about his knowledge of the looming threats, telling them he was briefed on “great intel every day,” an official with knowledge of the exchange said, according to the Post.

US officials have told Reuters that US agencies are in the process of drawing up plans to expand a ban on passengers carrying laptop computers onto US-bound flights from several countries on conflict zones due to new intelligence about how militant groups are refining techniques for installing bombs in laptops.*


----------



## basilio

If you go back to the original story I posted Noco you will see the problem with Trumps comments were the details of how the intelligence was obtained. In effect he has severely comprised the agents who uncovered the plots and the countries who passed this information to the US..

_"But other officials expressed concern with Trump's handling of sensitive information as well as his grasp of the potential consequences. Exposure of an intelligence stream that has provided critical insight into IS, they said, could hinder the US' and its allies' ability to detect future threats.

"It is all kind of shocking," said a former senior US official close to current administration officials. "Trump seems to be very reckless, and doesn't grasp the gravity of the things he's dealing with."

*Most alarmingly, officials said, Trump revealed the city in IS territory where the US intelligence partner detected the threat.*

The Washington Post is withholding most plot details, including the name of the city, at the urging of officials who warned that revealing them would jeopardise important intelligence capabilities.

"Everyone knows this stream is very sensitive and the idea of sharing it at this level of granularity with the Russians is troubling," said a former senior US counter-terrorism official who also worked closely with members of the Trump national security team. He and others spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the sensitivity of the subject.
*
The identification of the location was seen as particularly problematic, officials said, because Russia could use that detail to help identify the US ally or intelligence capability involved. Officials said that the capability could be useful for other purposes, possibly providing intelligence on Russia's presence in Syria. Moscow and would be keenly interested in identifying that source and possibly disrupting it.

At a more fundamental level, the information wasn't the US' to provide to others. Under the rules of espionage, governments - and even individual agencies - are given significant control over whether and how the information they gather is disseminated even after it has been shared. Violating that practice undercuts trust considered essential to sharing secrets.

The officials declined to identify the ally, but said it is one that has previously voiced frustration with Washington's inability to safeguard sensitive information related to Iraq and Syria.

"If that partner learned we'd given this to Russia without their knowledge or asking first that is a blow to that relationship," the US official said.


http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...-minister-and-ambassador-20170515-gw5jh1.html*
_


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## basilio

Trumps first foreign tour.  What a special time. Unforgettable...

I thought the original picture of his meeting with Pope Francis was the most priceless pic of all

https://twitter.com/Alser82/status/867471648127156224/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/donald-trump-meets-pope-francis-22-funniest-memes/


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## sptrawler

One good thing about Trump, is he is shaking up mediocrity, we have wallowed around going nowhere for 20 years.
The rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer, the middle class have been decimated by once in a lifetime economic shocks every 10 years.
So even if all he does is rattle the can, at least it isn't more of the same.IMO


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Trumps first foreign tour.  What a special time. Unforgettable...
> 
> I thought the original picture of his meeting with Pope Francis was the most priceless pic of all
> 
> https://twitter.com/Alser82/status/867471648127156224/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/donald-trump-meets-pope-francis-22-funniest-memes/




Priceless.

You seen that video of the Pope smiling at Trump's wife then turn cold the moment he see Trump? The Pope's worst day, ever.

This one's not photoshopped. Children of the Corn stuff.


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> One good thing about Trump, is he is shaking up mediocrity, we have wallowed around going nowhere for 20 years.
> The rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer, the middle class have been decimated by once in a lifetime economic shocks every 10 years.
> So even if all he does is rattle the can, at least it isn't more of the same.IMO




It's worst of the same though.

He really just doesn't hide the fact that he's screwing the poor and the working class [same thing?]. With smart guys like Clinton and Obama, they do the same thing but hide it better. That and they did try to give some tiny crumbs. Trump just kind of tell the poor to go screw themselves, to their face.


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## basilio

sptrawler said:


> One good thing about Trump, is he is shaking up mediocrity, we have wallowed around going nowhere for 20 years.
> The rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer, the middle class have been decimated by once in a lifetime economic shocks every 10 years.
> So even if all he does is rattle the can, at least it isn't more of the same.IMO




He is certainly not more of the same. He is just a xxxxxing, disaster intent on maximising the Trump fortune as a reward for getting elected.


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## luutzu

basilio said:


> He is certainly not more of the same. He is just a xxxxxing, disaster intent on maximising the Trump fortune as a reward for getting elected.




Ivanka went along with daddy on his first big trip and managed to get $100M from the Saudis and UAE for her women's charity.

yup. She's just your typical Mother Theresa, Eleanor Roosevelt type. Just don't judge her by the fact that she does not pay her interns with cash [only with valuable experiences] and wear dresses in the tens of thousands each.


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## basilio

How could Donald Trump score a very big win ? One that could move the American and world economy into a marked upward cycle ?  Regain American leadership in Europe and the rest of the world ? Roll back some of the overwhelmingly negative press he is facing ?

How about endorsing  the Paris CC agreement ? Just reading an article which unfolds a range of exceptional outcomes for Trump if he endorses the Paris agreement and sends the signal to investors that  a low carbon economy is the next big thing.

* Endorsing the Paris Agreement is Trump’s best opportunity for a big win *
A 21st-century American infrastructure agenda depends on the Paris Agreement




Man standing before Brooklyn bridge and view of lower Manhattan. Photograph: Grant Faint/Getty Images

*Shares*
15
 
* Comments*
 18 
Joseph Robertson

Tuesday 30 May 2017 20.00 AEST   Last modified on Tuesday 30 May 2017 20.02 AEST

There is only one part of President Trump’s agenda with real opportunity for a big win, right now, and that is infrastructure. And the Paris Agreement—the strongest ever signal pointing toward transformational infrastructure investment—is the only way to mobilize the capital necessary to get to that big win.

The common misunderstanding about the Paris accord is its impact on business and investment. Opponents fret about costs and economic change, but achieving the Paris Agreement’s goals will unlock capital investment at a rate no other policy initiative can match.

Here’s why:


Right now, an unprecedented amount of actual wealth is “sitting on the sidelines,” awaiting the next wave economy—the transformational moment of world-building investment potential.
More than $8 trillion tied up in negative yield bonds, along with another $5 trillion in corporate cash holdings, are waiting for a go sign. All that capital is looking for reliable growth and secure returns.
Climate-resilient investments, high-efficiency new energy technologies, and services that build value in local communities, hold far more growth potential than any old-style industrial production standards.
The International Monetary Fund estimates that $5.1 trillion per year in direct and indirect assistance to high-carbon energy is not only a waste of public resources, but qualifies as “destructive spending” that undermines value across whole economies.
The opportunity to move that money into the building of a new economy of sustainable prosperity open to all is what the Paris Agreement is designed to activate.
Having overseen major building projects in his business career, President Trump has said the cost benefits of energy efficiency are clear to him. Energy efficient infrastructure will not only mobilize capital and add to GDP; it will activate major new property investment opportunities, create a new kind of flexible property market, and revitalize credit and banking.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ment-is-trumps-best-opportunity-for-a-big-win


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## basilio

*How does one develop a more disciplined and focused President Trump?*

The Twitter world and the internet is  falling over as speculation rages on the Dons latest , yet to be fully analysed, tweet. It says and has not been corrected or adjusted :

*"Despite the constant negative press covfefe."*
Analysts, computers, cryptologists, proctologists, are searching  frantically(! ! ) for the meaning of this precious nugget. To date all efforts have failed. It seems the Don has outfoxed us all. 
What could this all mean ? Really ?
One observation has already been made by an anonymous staff member.

The news site Axios had reported on Thursday that the president’s current device was an iPhone with only one app: Twitter.
It cited anonymous White House officials who said that limiting screen time was key to “forcing a more disciplined President Trump”, as witnessed on his overseas tour:

_"In Trump’s case, it’s curtailing his time watching TV and banging out tweets on his iPhone. Trump himself has been pushing staff to give him more free time. But staff does everything it can to load up his schedule to keep him from getting worked up watching cable coverage, which often precipitates his tweets. It has worked well overseas so far."_

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/31/what-is-covfefe-donald-trump-baffles-twitter-post
This is our learless feader....  God helps us all.


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## luutzu

basilio said:


> *How does one develop a more disciplined and focused President Trump?*
> 
> The Twitter world and the internet is  falling over as speculation rages on the Dons latest , yet to be fully analysed, tweet. It says and has not been corrected or adjusted :
> 
> *"Despite the constant negative press covfefe."*
> Analysts, computers, cryptologists, proctologists, are searching  frantically(! ! ) for the meaning of this precious nugget. To date all efforts have failed. It seems the Don has outfoxed us all.
> What could this all mean ? Really ?
> One observation has already been made by an anonymous staff member.
> 
> The news site Axios had reported on Thursday that the president’s current device was an iPhone with only one app: Twitter.
> It cited anonymous White House officials who said that limiting screen time was key to “forcing a more disciplined President Trump”, as witnessed on his overseas tour:
> 
> _"In Trump’s case, it’s curtailing his time watching TV and banging out tweets on his iPhone. Trump himself has been pushing staff to give him more free time. But staff does everything it can to load up his schedule to keep him from getting worked up watching cable coverage, which often precipitates his tweets. It has worked well overseas so far."_
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/31/what-is-covfefe-donald-trump-baffles-twitter-post
> This is our learless feader....  God helps us all.




I'm surprised he would make typos with such tiny hands. 

Heard the CIA Director somewhat confirming rumours that the Donald want his national security briefing summarised in one page, preferably with lots of pictures. OK, charts. 

Sometime you got to feel sorry for the guy. He only wanted to join the presidential race to promote the new season of the Apprentice and look where it got him.


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## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Sometime you got to feel sorry for the guy. He only wanted to join the presidential race to promote the new season of the Apprentice and look where it got him.




Donald is fantastic fiction masquerading as fact. He's the Chauncey Gardner of the real world IMO.


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## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Sometime you got to feel sorry for the guy. He only wanted to join the presidential race to promote the new season of the Apprentice and look where it got him.




I sometimes feel I am living in one of those alternate reality worlds, a simulation like the latest Doctor Who episodes if anyone is watching them.

The world doesn't seem real now that the "The Donald" is President.

(Top movie - Being There)


----------



## Logique

Trump Derangement Syndrome on full display in this thread.  He will go down as a greater President than Obama and Clinton (Bill or wannabe Hillary).

Let's spend our money fighting terrorism says President Trump, instead of putting it up against the wall on futile climate gestures. For this he incurs the full wrath of the Left. 

Do the climate catastrophists understand how many coal-fired power stations China is currently building? Or how many nuclear-powered electricity plants there are in France? 

No, it's more important to trawl through every sentence of Trump's Twitter account.


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## Knobby22

At least he is politically done what he was doing in reality e.g. cutting the EPA budget by a third.
His achievements so far include reducing medical help to the poor and reducing regulation to the banks that was put in after the Depression but previously removed by Bush Jr who then watched the banks blow themselves up within a year. I hope they are a bit smarter this time.

Now if he can only get through tariff walls for US industry and increasing isolationist policies, tax cuts to the rich while greatly increasing the national debt as planned then he will undoubtedly go down as a memorable President. I have no pity for the USA, they voted for him. I actually hope he is allowed to do everything he wants. I want the USA people to learn a harsh lesson.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> I sometimes feel I am living in one of those alternate reality worlds, a simulation like the latest Doctor Who episodes if anyone is watching them.
> 
> The world doesn't seem real now that the "The Donald" is President.
> 
> (Top movie - Being There)




Yea, it is a bit surreal. I get deep into that state once when I was watching MSNBC and the news readers was fawning over the president, how he replace the Oval office's curtain to gold, use Reagan's rug, and have two scoops of ice cream for desert. awwww, so cute, he want two scoops while everyone else at the table only get to have one. 

Though it's a good thing this Trump. Might drive into the yanks that they shouldn't take their president seriously or with any respect. But then it does reinforce into any idiot that they too can become president.


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## noco

His next move will be to cut down on financial support for the UN......22%...What a joke in comparison to what China and Russia pay....It will be the beginning of the end for the UN.


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## luutzu

noco said:


> His next move will be to cut down on financial support for the UN......22%...What a joke in comparison to what China and Russia pay....It will be the beginning of the end for the UN.




Yea, do that and it's going to be rebraned the UNC - the United Nation of China.

Trump is one of those rich idiot that grew up in the heydays of the United States. The days where it was honestly that shining city on the hill. He still think the US is that nation. All it has now are vast military power and a crap load of vassal states and colonies around the world.

Vassal states and colonies are only loyal and obedient once the imperial city still have the military and financial might. The moment it stuff that up and pizz its wealth away, that's the moment another power came to take its place. $100Billion a year on military bases is one great way to spend the country into oblivion.

After WW2, the US have about half the world's wealth. That figure almost immediately go down and down.

Now, US corporations own half the world's wealth. The US, maybe a quarter.

How loyal do you reckon multi-national corporations are to any one country? Know why Coca-Cola also produces Fanta for the Nazi? Just in case the Allied lost it'll still have a footing in that 1000 year Third Reich.

Look up how many multinationals are operating in China.

And Trump cannot bomb its way out of this one. China and Russia can actually fight back.

So keep this up and one day when the US say it'll quit something, the whole world could just shrug and say, alright.


----------



## Knobby22

noco said:


> His next move will be to cut down on financial support for the UN......22%...What a joke in comparison to what China and Russia pay....It will be the beginning of the end for the UN.



China will welcome the chance to build a new U.N. building on their soil.


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## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> China will welcome the chance to build a new U.N. building on their soil.




I*f *Donald Trump continues to smash global co-operation through the UN, the spectre of a fundamental realignment of political power has to be on the cards.  A very big part of the political process of setting up the UN after the war was cementing the power of the big 5 and the US as Chief honcho. Hence the UN being set up in New York.

When the US decides to pull out of a critical global initiative supported by 99.5% of the rest of the world, can it still be seen as an international  leader ?  Let's see how this plays out.


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## noco

basilio said:


> I*f *Donald Trump continues to smash global co-operation through the UN, the spectre of a fundamental realignment of political power has to be on the cards.  A very big part of the political process of setting up the UN after the war was cementing the power of the big 5 and the US as Chief honcho. Hence the UN being set up in New York.
> 
> When the US decides to pull out of a critical global initiative supported by 99.5% of the rest of the world, can it still be seen as an international  leader ?  Let's see how this plays out.




The rest of the world could not possibly support 99.5 % of the UN when the USA is providing 22% of the support.

The USA cannot withdraw completely from the UN but it can reduce the financial support by 50%.

The setting up of the United Nations after WW11 was a great idea and was to be used to prevent any further wars and to help impoverished countries, but over the past 70 years it had been infiltrated by socialist left Greens and has become so corrupt that it is now almost bankrupt......Furthermore it has not prevented further wars and has done very little for those  stuck in migration camps around the world. 

Australia is one of 27 nations assisting in any migration program....What are the other 180 nations doing about migration?......Bugger all!1


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## basilio

Donald Trumps response to ISIS terror attack in London reaffirms the character of the man who is now President of the USA.  And it isn't attractive.

* London terrorist attacks: Trump again embarrasses himself and US with his tweets *

*Jennifer Rubin*
742 reading now
 Show comments
*Washington: *The stoic determination and decency of the British people and their leaders was on full display in the hours after the latest horrific terrorist rampage.

The Brits fought back, launching drinking glasses and chairs at the savages who attacked them. The police acted with lightning-fast precision, killing the three assailants within eight minutes of the emergency call. And, God bless him, a man returned to the bar where he experienced Saturday's horror - to pay his bill and tip.

*Trump blasts London mayor on Twitter*
US President Donald Trump has responded to the terror attacks in London by taking aim at London's mayor, political correctness and gun control.

Civilisation is not going to be driven out of Britain by three, or 300, killers.

Meanwhile, and it pains me to write this, our President acted like a clod, a heartless and dull-witted thug in sending out a series of tweets.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...f-and-us-with-his-tweets-20170604-gwkckr.html


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## basilio

*Trump meets The Handmaids Tale .  A view into an alternative reality.
*


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## basilio

*Russians agents hacked US voting system before election*

Well that certainly gets  everyone's attention.  Particularly when  the Liar in Chief has been so adamant that stories stating Russian involvement in the 2016 election were fake news put  out to discredit his magnificent, fantastic, overwhelming victory over the infidels.

The next  headline tells the full story of this evil man.

*Reality Winner facing 10 years jail for leaking hacking of US voting system by Russians*
This information was known to the Trump administration when the Liar in Chief dismissed the allegations of  Russian interference in the election. The report was in the NSA files. And yet we only know the truth because one brave soul has spoken out.
The price of truth could be 10 years jail time under the Espionage Act. Meanwhile the Liar in Chief continues without challenge.

Sources.
<< >>

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/05/reality-winner-russia-us-election-hack-nsa-leak
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/05/russia-us-election-hack-voting-system-nsa-report


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## Tisme

Someone get Jeff Sessions a copy of Alan Bond's "100 ways to avoid memory"


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## Tisme

Major suck up to the Emperor :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nternet-is-poking-fun/?utm_term=.9f1bdbbf8d97


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## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Major suck up to the Emperor :
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nternet-is-poking-fun/?utm_term=.9f1bdbbf8d97





Another surreal moment. 

They're worshipping a failed business "tycoon" who cheats people out of money; a loudmouthed reality-TV braggart... right?

These are guys that head government departments at the highest level of the empire right?

Anyone who honestly praises Trump shouldn't be taken seriously. And if they're liars, maybe they shouldn't be trusted with affairs of state.


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## basilio

That was *So,so* special.  To see such and impressive line up of absolute sucks trying to outdo each other  to bring El Presidente to glory. I swear he came at least 3 times during those speeches.

It reminded me of an old story told about the adulation of Uncle Joe Stalin by the masses after his public addresses. 

Apparently the  unrestrained clapping went for many, many minutes and impressed almost all the foreign observers  reporting on the progress of the Russian Revolution and the love of the workers for their beloved.

What they didn't know was that the NKVD secret service were throughout the crowd and the word was that the first people who stopping clapping would be flogged or shot. Certainly sharpened their focus...


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> That was *So,so* special.  To see such and impressive line up of absolute sucks trying to outdo each other  to bring El Presidente to glory. I swear he came at least 3 times during those speeches.
> 
> It reminded me of an old story told about the adulation of Uncle Joe Stalin by the masses after his public addresses.
> 
> Apparently the  unrestrained clapping went for many, many minutes and impressed almost all the foreign observers  reporting on the progress of the Russian Revolution and the love of the workers for their beloved.
> 
> What they didn't know was that the NKVD secret service were throughout the crowd and the word was that the first people who stopping clapping would be flogged or shot. Certainly sharpened their focus...




I guess Comey was the first to stop clapping 


An good interview on the Son-in-Law and the screwing of the poor. These guys are psychotic. Real psychos.


----------



## wayneL

The new terrorists - lefists

Dreaming of jailing and blowing up ideological opponents, now shooting them... fomented by a Trump hating media and their unthinking minions.


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> The new terrorists - lefists
> 
> Dreaming of jailing and blowing up ideological opponents, now shooting them... fomented by a Trump hating media and their unthinking minions.



The divide in the US is mental. Democrats divorcing their republican spouses has to be the most stupid thing I heard. 
The hate is thick on twitter accounts and facebook on guys like michael moore. I don't think australia is far behind either.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> The divide in the US is mental. Democrats divorcing their republican spouses has to be the most stupid thing I heard.
> The hate is thick on twitter accounts and facebook on guys like michael moore. I don't think australia is far behind either.




I think Oz is out in front, ever since Abbott and his cronies injected spit and vitriol into Canberra. The upsetting component is the eagerness of the public to fawn over such people, just because of a brand . One of the early casualties was traditional party horse trading and thus the legislation impasses.


My litmus test of politicians is whether they meet the civility criteria my Grandma would insist on within the home.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> My litmus test of politicians is whether they meet the civility criteria my Grandma would insist on within the home.




Turnbull gave a disgusting and insulting dismissal in QT of Shorten's offer to work together on the Finkel report.

Turnbull is as much a class warrior as Abbott is, policy doesn't matter, ridiculing the Opposition and winning is the only important thing to him.

You were absolutely right about him Tisme, he's a wa***er.


----------



## Tink

You are entitled to your view, Tisme.

imv, what I see is the same 'hate' directed at Trump, as they did to Abbott.


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## Tisme

Tink said:


> You are entitled to your view, Tisme.
> 
> imv, what I see is the same 'hate' directed at Trump, as they did to Abbott.





Not arguing that Tink, but Tony did set the bar low, that is undeniable no matter what ribbons you wear. My opinions are predicated on the cut of the wearer's suit, not on the tailor .....hard for those who can't break away from the chains that bind.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Turnbull gave a disgusting and insulting dismissal in QT of Shorten's offer to work together on the Finkel report.
> 
> Turnbull is as much a class warrior as Abbott is, policy doesn't matter, ridiculing the Opposition and winning is the only important thing to him.
> 
> You were absolutely right about him Tisme, he's a wa***er.




It's been one the few things of worth we have disagreed on for the long time we have been upsetting the hackneyed voting public..... rather gratifying in a way that up and down can agree while left and right bicker and sook. 

I do feel for you on this Rumpole because you have advocated for him so long and I admit it is unedifying watching him sink to the gutter politics he has half heartedly accused the opposition of.


----------



## basilio

So a couple of days after El Presidente crows that he wasn't being personally investigated the Special Counsel investigating the alleged Russian interference in the last election is going to look at  allegations Trump was trying to obstruct justice.

Also turns out that some Republicans are wanting to dismiss the Special Counsell Robert Mueller. Check out John McCains response to* that* idea.

*Special Counsel investigating Russian interference in US election will now examine President Trump*
June 15, 201710:44am

Video
Image
Play
0:03
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Fullscreen
Autoplay

*Resident says Grenfell Tower Fire was "no accident" *









Staff writers, agenciesNews Corp Australia Network
*THE Special Counsel investigating Russia’s interference in the US election has widened his probe to include allegations President Trump attempted to obstruct justice.*

In a pivotal shift in the investigation that has riveted Americans like no other for decades, senior intelligence officials have agreed to be interviewed by investigators working for the special counsel, Robert Mueller, the Post said.

It quoted five people briefed on the requests and said those who have agreed to be interviewed are Daniel Coats, the director of national intelligence, Admiral Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency, and his recently departed deputy, Richard Ledgett.

The interviews could come as early as this week, the Post said. The newspaper’s story was met with a furious reaction from Trump’s personal lawyer.

The shift toward investigating the US president began days after Trump fired James Comey as FBI director on May 9, the Post said.
http://www.news.com.au/world/specia... blaze: ‘They were warned’&itmt=1497488723087


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I think Oz is out in front, ever since Abbott and his cronies injected spit and vitriol into Canberra. The upsetting component is the eagerness of the public to fawn over such people, just because of a brand . One of the early casualties was traditional party horse trading and thus the legislation impasses.
> 
> 
> My litmus test of politicians is whether they meet the civility criteria my Grandma would insist on within the home.




Weren't your grandma one for Imperial overreach and all that civilising business?


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> I think Oz is out in front, ever since Abbott and his cronies injected spit and vitriol into Canberra. The upsetting component is the eagerness of the public to fawn over such people, just because of a brand . One of the early casualties was traditional party horse trading and thus the legislation impasses.
> 
> 
> My litmus test of politicians is whether they meet the civility criteria my Grandma would insist on within the home.




Abbott is a grub who dragged Australian politics down to the base level of American politics. The current inability for anything to get done in Canberra is, in no small part, his legacy. Shorten isn't smart enough to come up with that idea on his own.


----------



## explod

basilio said:


> So a couple of days after El Presidente crows that he wasn't being personally investigated the Special Counsel investigating the alleged Russian interference in the last election is going to look at  allegations Trump was trying to obstruct justice.
> 
> Also turns out that some Republicans are wanting to dismiss the Special Counsell Robert Mueller. Check out John McCains response to* that* idea.
> 
> *Special Counsel investigating Russian interference in US election will now examine President Trump*
> June 15, 201710:44am
> 
> Video
> Image
> Play
> 0:03
> /
> 0:31
> 
> Fullscreen
> Autoplay
> 
> *Resident says Grenfell Tower Fire was "no accident" *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Staff writers, agenciesNews Corp Australia Network
> *THE Special Counsel investigating Russia’s interference in the US election has widened his probe to include allegations President Trump attempted to obstruct justice.*
> 
> In a pivotal shift in the investigation that has riveted Americans like no other for decades, senior intelligence officials have agreed to be interviewed by investigators working for the special counsel, Robert Mueller, the Post said.
> 
> It quoted five people briefed on the requests and said those who have agreed to be interviewed are Daniel Coats, the director of national intelligence, Admiral Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency, and his recently departed deputy, Richard Ledgett.
> 
> The interviews could come as early as this week, the Post said. The newspaper’s story was met with a furious reaction from Trump’s personal lawyer.
> 
> The shift toward investigating the US president began days after Trump fired James Comey as FBI director on May 9, the Post said.
> http://www.news.com.au/world/special-counsel-investigating-russian-interference-in-us-election-will-now-examine-president-trump/news-story/4cc96000efa13efdd2829098f541dc9d#itm=newscomau|news|right-now-in-|1|It just got real for Donald Trump|story|London blaze: ‘They were warned’&itmt=1497488723087



Absolutely no one touches the FBI,  particularly the head.   J Edgar HOOVER proved that in his control of 7 Presidents. 

Russia as enemy is just a guise for the US to control resources and monopoly on arms production.   But for sacking the FBI head Trump is finished. 

In my humble opinion of course;   and as usual.


----------



## basilio

Another day another court case for El Presidente. (They have to get these in before all the Courts are abolished and the Judges interned because of the "grave dangers facing  our great nation")
So 196 Democrats in Congress are suing the Thief-in-Chief for treating the Presidency as a golden opportunity to enrich is his family and the international Trump Empire. Clearly a total failure to properly understand the basic laws of politics and business in America.

*Which of course everybody knows.*

* Trump sued by 200 Democratic lawmakers over foreign payments *
Senators and representatives say money flowing into president’s business empire violates emoluments clause of constitution
Associated Press in Washington

Wednesday 14 June 2017 19.31 AEST

Almost 200 Democratic lawmakers are suing Donald Trump over foreign money flowing into his global business empire.

The senators and representatives are plaintiffs in a lawsuit alleging Trump is violating the emoluments clause of the constitution. It is being filed early on Wednesday in the US district court for the District of Columbia, the lawmakers said.

The plaintiffs argue they have standing to sue because the clause says only Congress may approve foreign gifts and payments.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ic-lawmakers-foreign-payments-business-empire


----------



## Tink

imv, Tisme.

Trump received a republican majority.
Abbott received a liberal majority.

This was about republicans being shot at while they were training at baseball.


----------



## Logique

Whatever 'The Donald's' faults - at least he isn't Hillary!  

'The Donald' and 'The Vladimir' in their worst moments, could not approach the Machiavellian malignancy of 'The Hillary'. And the excerpt under was written by a good woman, Miranda Devine (my bolds):







> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...n/news-story/76870dcfadd6b22156096bed6d98343b
> ...*Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate: secretive, entitled, unpleasant*, you name it.  Her recklessness in using a private server for classified State Department documents and the sloppiness of her campaign which made her emails vulnerable to hacking, whether or not it was by Russia.
> 
> She couldn’t articulate why she was running for President other than because she was a woman and it was her turn.
> 
> Her strategy was to dehumanise Trump and his voters as a “basket of deplorables” - “racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic”, as she told an LGBTQI fundraiser in New York during the campaign.
> 
> *Trump’s unlikely victory was a repudiation of Clinton personally *and more generally of the left’s entire bankrupt project of identity politics.
> 
> *That’s why they will do anything to overturn the result*.


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> 'The Donald' and 'The Vladimir' in their worst moments, could not approach the Machiavellian malignancy of 'The Hillary'.




With due respect to yourself, you must be joking.

Comparing Clinton, warts an all, to that pair of disgusting psychopathic tyrants is ridiculous.


----------



## wayneL

Logique is spot on, you lot are just deceived by the the complicity of the media narrative


----------



## wayneL

Bas,  I totally agree,  but the irony is that it is people like yourself that facilitate the toxicity of the political scene. Have a look at your own posts man!


----------



## howardbandy

Today is Thursday, June 22, 2017.  The Senate's proposed health care bill was announced a few hours ago.  

Health care, (USNEWS, December 2, 2016) in all its aspects, makes up some 17.8% of US GDP.  

The bill was drafted by a small group of Republican Senators in very private and secret meetings.  No Democratic Senators participated in drafting the bill.  Many Republican Senators saw it for the first time today.  There has been no public discussions of the bill, nor are any planned.  News and public policy organizations have begun the process of reading the bill and interpreting its effects.  The Senate will vote on the bill next week, prior to leaving Washington for the July 4th holiday.

The implications are dire.  This bill will greatly reduce government support for medical care, particularly to poor and elderly people.  It will raise health care costs for all people.  Even before the changes this bill will make, most Americans die broke or in debt, often due to costs of health care.  This condition will become worse.

I have several concerns about this bill and health care in general in the US.  Among them:

1.  Per capita health costs in the US is at or near the highest in the world, with health quality the lowest of "developed" countries.  In quality per cost, the US ranks near the absolute bottom.  The US could adopt the health care policies of any of several countries and both raise care and lower cost.  

2.  The Trump-care bills suggest that costs will be lower due to increased competition among insurers resulting in higher quality plans at lower premiums.  To date, no insurer has explained what coverage will be available, at what premium, and with what restrictions.  The proponents of the bill are making promises, expecting some other organization will keep them.

3.  Suggesting that every person will have "access" to health care insurance is inadequate at best.  Far too many people are already living at poverty levels and receiving Medicaid or the equivalent.  Medicaid currently supports health care for about 20% of all Americans.  As that program is cut, as the new bill proposes, those people have no funds to buy any insurance at any price.

The leadership of the US is the poorest in my lifetime.  Both elected officials, including Trump, Pence, Ryan, and McConnell, and appointed cabinet-level officials including Sessions, Zinke, Ross, Price, Carson, Chao, Perry, DeVos, Haley, and Pruitt.  There are many very rich money-behind-the-scenes supporters of the current administration who have the view that it is not possible to have "too much" personal wealth and influence, including Koch, Walton, Scaife, DeVos, Friess, Adelson, Langone, Mercer, Thiel, and many others. 

Without regard to political preference, it is evident that the US has a leadership crisis.  What could help?  Here are a few of many suggestions.

1.  Stop gerrymandering -- defining strangely shaped Congressional districts.
2.  Remove the Electoral College and enable popular election of the president.
3.  Limit both the time and money spent on campaigns.
4.  Require adequate opportunity for Congressional debate and public hearings on legislative proposals.
5.  Limit the influence of lobbyists.
6.  Require full disclosure for all public officials -- education, health, finances, taxes, military, etc.
7.  Require that cabinet members be experts in the departments they lead.
8.  Reduce focus and spending on military.
9.  Increase focus and spending on health care.
10.  And many more.

Thanks for listening,
Best,  Howard


----------



## SirRumpole

All the best Howard, I hope Bernie is still around in the next election, I think he would romp in.


----------



## Tisme

howardbandy said:


> Today is Thursday, June 22, 2017.  The Senate's proposed health care bill was announced a few hours ago.
> 
> Health care, (USNEWS, December 2, 2016) in all its aspects, makes up some 17.8% of US GDP.
> 
> The bill was drafted by a small group of Republican Senators in very private and secret meetings.  No Democratic Senators participated in drafting the bill.  Many Republican Senators saw it for the first time today.  There has been no public discussions of the bill, nor are any planned.  News and public policy organizations have begun the process of reading the bill and interpreting its effects.  The Senate will vote on the bill next week, prior to leaving Washington for the July 4th holiday.
> 
> The implications are dire.  This bill will greatly reduce government support for medical care, particularly to poor and elderly people.  It will raise health care costs for all people.  Even before the changes this bill will make, most Americans die broke or in debt, often due to costs of health care.  This condition will become worse.
> 
> I have several concerns about this bill and health care in general in the US.  Among them:
> 
> 1.  Per capita health costs in the US is at or near the highest in the world, with health quality the lowest of "developed" countries.  In quality per cost, the US ranks near the absolute bottom.  The US could adopt the health care policies of any of several countries and both raise care and lower cost.
> 
> 2.  The Trump-care bills suggest that costs will be lower due to increased competition among insurers resulting in higher quality plans at lower premiums.  To date, no insurer has explained what coverage will be available, at what premium, and with what restrictions.  The proponents of the bill are making promises, expecting some other organization will keep them.
> 
> 3.  Suggesting that every person will have "access" to health care insurance is inadequate at best.  Far too many people are already living at poverty levels and receiving Medicaid or the equivalent.  Medicaid currently supports health care for about 20% of all Americans.  As that program is cut, as the new bill proposes, those people have no funds to buy any insurance at any price.
> 
> The leadership of the US is the poorest in my lifetime.  Both elected officials, including Trump, Pence, Ryan, and McConnell, and appointed cabinet-level officials including Sessions, Zinke, Ross, Price, Carson, Chao, Perry, DeVos, Haley, and Pruitt.  There are many very rich money-behind-the-scenes supporters of the current administration who have the view that it is not possible to have "too much" personal wealth and influence, including Koch, Walton, Scaife, DeVos, Friess, Adelson, Langone, Mercer, Thiel, and many others.
> 
> Without regard to political preference, it is evident that the US has a leadership crisis.  What could help?  Here are a few of many suggestions.
> 
> 1.  Stop gerrymandering -- defining strangely shaped Congressional districts.
> 2.  Remove the Electoral College and enable popular election of the president.
> 3.  Limit both the time and money spent on campaigns.
> 4.  Require adequate opportunity for Congressional debate and public hearings on legislative proposals.
> 5.  Limit the influence of lobbyists.
> 6.  Require full disclosure for all public officials -- education, health, finances, taxes, military, etc.
> 7.  Require that cabinet members be experts in the departments they lead.
> 8.  Reduce focus and spending on military.
> 9.  Increase focus and spending on health care.
> 10.  And many more.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> Best,  Howard




I remember sitting on the porch of a casino in Mississippi, having a chat with some inquisitive locals and Texans. When the subject of social welfare was raised, the looks of amazement on their faces reflected the palpable intensity of interest and approval at Australia's safety nets. I made friendships with a few of them and for a while a few, especially the Texans, would include pro comments about the wonder of universal health care in emails.

Then Obama hate entered into the equation and I noticed the same people who had lauded the idea of state sponsored health care were now posting anti commentary facebook memes in line with their political instruction.  It seems the USA citizen suffers the same inability to betray their brand regardless of common sense that we Australians endure.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> All the best Howard, I hope Bernie is still around in the next election, I think he would romp in.




I don't think he'd romp in. Most working class Americans don't know what's good for them and vote for neo-cons who soothe their religious sensibilities while stripping them of a living wage and health care. Wasn't that the end game of twin deficits anyway?

Most poor Americans still believe the American dream rubbish. Don't tax me; I'll be rich one day.


----------



## McLovin

Tisme said:


> I remember sitting on the porch of a casino in Mississippi




Beau Rivage? I spent a month there one night!


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> I don't think he'd romp in. Most working class Americans don't know what's good for them and vote for neo-cons who soothe their religious sensibilities while stripping them of a living wage and health care. Wasn't that the end game of twin deficits anyway?
> 
> Most poor Americans still believe the American dream rubbish. Don't tax me; I'll be rich one day.



How is the pillage of the middle class, the easiest of taxation targets,  good for them?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> How is the pillage of the middle class, the easiest of taxation targets,  good for them?




What's the essential difference between being taxed for health insurance and having to pay for private insurance ?


----------



## wayneL

There is more to the Bernie ideological cesspit than health care


----------



## basilio

The Leader of The Free World, Saviour of Humanity, the ultimate Bigly One has graced the Illustrious Cover of Time Magazine.

Plain for All to See at the Wondrous Trump Golf Courses.

Trump has a fake Time Magazine cover framed on the walls of his golf clubs

By Jen Hayden
Wednesday Jun 28, 2017 · 4:52 AM AUSEST
 86 Comments (86 New) 
114
 





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Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump literally has “fake news” hanging on the walls of his golf clubs. The _Washington Post_ discovered at least four Trump-owned properties feature a framed “Time Magazine” cover featuring The Donald. The problem? They are completely phony:

This cover — dated March 1, 2009 — looks like an impressive memento from Trump’s pre-presidential career. To club members eating lunch, or golfers waiting for a pro-shop purchase, it seemed to be a signal that Trump had always been a man who mattered. Even when he was just a reality-TV star, Trump was the kind of star who got a cover story in Time.

But that wasn’t true.

*The Time cover is a fake.

There was no March 1, 2009, issue of Time Magazine. And there was no issue at all in 2009 that had Trump on the cover.*

Watch this video and see David Farenthold of the _Washington Post_ break down the patently fake cover and how it might have gotten there to begin with!

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...e-cover-framed-on-the-walls-of-his-golf-clubs

PS Time Magazine has told the Wanker In Chief to pull down the Fake Covers.


----------



## basilio

How I miss the good old days. When Donald Trump was just a big-noting part of the WWE entertainment industry.  Just Big, Boofy, Stoopid.  (Made the rasslers look like intellectual giants)


----------



## howardbandy

SirRumpole said:


> What's the essential difference between being taxed for health insurance and having to pay for private insurance ?




Taxes to pay for health care are assessed on income.  No income, no taxes, but health care still provided through public funding of social services.
Buying insurance requires income.  No income, no health care.

Health care in the US became attached to employment following WWII in joint efforts to avoid wage restrictions put in place during the war and as a benefit to attract employees.  Employer-paid health care (primarily through insurance paid for by the employer) has continued since.  That did not cause too much disruption during periods of employment stability and low health care inflation.  Now it is a serious problem.  We -- the US -- need to separate health care from employment.  And to assure that health care -- services for both treatment and prevention -- is available to all people without worry about life altering expense.

The conversation about "repeal and replace" the Affordable Care Act has become insanely inhumane.  Republicans control both house of representatives and senate, but have been unable to arrive at replacement legislation in either body that is satisfactory to their party.  Since "replace" seems to be impossible, the plan being discussed now seems to be "repeal, but do not replace."  Which will remove health care from millions of people.  So much for humanity and civility.  

Best,   Howard


----------



## qldfrog

SirRumpole said:


> What's the essential difference between being taxed for health insurance and having to pay for private insurance ?



The australian govenment has not been able to answer that one so as a result:
I am taxed for health insurance AND mandated to pay for a private one.
Not that I see the US as a model; I just wonder why in the US no one seems to tackle the root of the problem: most expensive and worst healthcare system we can think of in modern societies; that just means in my opinion that far too many pigs are feeding in the trough. and obamacare or the opposite  will not help .The real solution is not an easy one: going back to legal liabilities and resulting insurance premium for surgeons/hospital, closed markets for medecine, lawyers, personal responsabilities etc etc.
The same causes will end up with the same results here in Oz if we are not careful;
Thanks God we have leadership here...not


----------



## basilio

The real problem with US health care is that it just a giant rort for the various providers. The idea of helping people get well is 16 rungs below extracting the maximum commercial value for drugs, medical treatments, facilities, insurance, administration, registration . Throwing more money at the scheme will never fix it. Greed is boundless.

The danger for Oz is that we  move down that path of promoting Private Health coverage over Public care. There are problems with both but letting the free market rip into Health Care will take us down the Sicko path.


----------



## Junior

qldfrog said:


> The australian govenment has not been able to answer that one so as a result:
> I am taxed for health insurance AND mandated to pay for a private one.




How are you mandated to pay for private healthcare?


----------



## DB008

Junior said:


> How are you mandated to pay for private healthcare?




If you don't have private health insurance, and earn above $90,000, you pay extra. The Government is trying to funnel people into having private health. We are heading down the path of the USA system.

*Medicare levy surcharge*​
The Medicare levy surcharge (MLS) is levied on Australian taxpayers who do not have an appropriate level of private hospital insurance and who earn above a certain income.

It is designed to encourage individuals to take out private hospital cover, and where possible, to use the private hospital system to reduce demand on the public Medicare system.

The MLS is payable in addition to the Medicare levy.

We use a special definition of income (called income for MLS purposes) to determine whether you are liable to pay the MLS, and the rate you will have to pay. This is different to your taxable income.

The base income threshold (under which you are not liable to pay the MLS) is $90,000 for singles and $180,000 for families. However, you do not have to pay the MLS if your family income exceeds the threshold but your own income for MLS purposes was $21,655 or less.

If you do have to pay the MLS, it will be included with the Medicare levy and shown as one amount on your notice of assessment called Medicare levy and surcharge.

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/medicare-levy/medicare-levy-surcharge/

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/...ds-and-rates-for-the-medicare-levy-surcharge/​


----------



## McLovin

The Medicare levy is not a hypothecated tax. It just goes straight into general revenue. It also doesn't come anywhere near close enough to paying for Medicare. The Medicare levy surcharge is just a higher tax marginal tax rate on higher incomes and should be viewed in that way, not as an extra contribution to Medicare.

You're right about the governmet wanting to punt people into private insurance. They want to defray as much of the baby boomer health costs as possible. Unfortunately, young people are starting to leave PHI because of the soaring costs with little or no benefits.


----------



## Junior

Yes, I know what MLS is, and it isn't private healthcare.....it's additional tax levied on high income earners to try and encourage them to purchase private health insurance.

Basic cover is less than $100/month, not out of reach if you are earning a good wage.


----------



## qldfrog

Junior said:


> Yes, I know what MLS is, and it isn't private healthcare.....it's additional tax levied on high income earners to try and encourage them to purchase private health insurance.
> 
> Basic cover is less than $100/month, not out of reach if you are earning a good wage.



basic cover covers nothing Junior and if sh*t happens you will either pay from your pocket or join the line in the public system;
But your private heath cover it is true might provide you with a discount for your Nikes or yoga club;
I has to do both : apy and do some of public hospital emergency stay when hit by a serious but not critical problem [while covered by a gold extra top of the range cover....]


----------



## luutzu

howardbandy said:


> Today is Thursday, June 22, 2017.  The Senate's proposed health care bill was announced a few hours ago.
> 
> Health care, (USNEWS, December 2, 2016) in all its aspects, makes up some 17.8% of US GDP.
> 
> The bill was drafted by a small group of Republican Senators in very private and secret meetings.  No Democratic Senators participated in drafting the bill.  Many Republican Senators saw it for the first time today.  There has been no public discussions of the bill, nor are any planned.  News and public policy organizations have begun the process of reading the bill and interpreting its effects.  The Senate will vote on the bill next week, prior to leaving Washington for the July 4th holiday.
> 
> The implications are dire.  This bill will greatly reduce government support for medical care, particularly to poor and elderly people.  It will raise health care costs for all people.  Even before the changes this bill will make, most Americans die broke or in debt, often due to costs of health care.  This condition will become worse.
> 
> I have several concerns about this bill and health care in general in the US.  Among them:
> 
> 1.  Per capita health costs in the US is at or near the highest in the world, with health quality the lowest of "developed" countries.  In quality per cost, the US ranks near the absolute bottom.  The US could adopt the health care policies of any of several countries and both raise care and lower cost.
> 
> 2.  The Trump-care bills suggest that costs will be lower due to increased competition among insurers resulting in higher quality plans at lower premiums.  To date, no insurer has explained what coverage will be available, at what premium, and with what restrictions.  The proponents of the bill are making promises, expecting some other organization will keep them.
> 
> 3.  Suggesting that every person will have "access" to health care insurance is inadequate at best.  Far too many people are already living at poverty levels and receiving Medicaid or the equivalent.  Medicaid currently supports health care for about 20% of all Americans.  As that program is cut, as the new bill proposes, those people have no funds to buy any insurance at any price.
> 
> The leadership of the US is the poorest in my lifetime.  Both elected officials, including Trump, Pence, Ryan, and McConnell, and appointed cabinet-level officials including Sessions, Zinke, Ross, Price, Carson, Chao, Perry, DeVos, Haley, and Pruitt.  There are many very rich money-behind-the-scenes supporters of the current administration who have the view that it is not possible to have "too much" personal wealth and influence, including Koch, Walton, Scaife, DeVos, Friess, Adelson, Langone, Mercer, Thiel, and many others.
> 
> Without regard to political preference, it is evident that the US has a leadership crisis.  What could help?  Here are a few of many suggestions.
> 
> 1.  Stop gerrymandering -- defining strangely shaped Congressional districts.
> 2.  Remove the Electoral College and enable popular election of the president.
> 3.  Limit both the time and money spent on campaigns.
> 4.  Require adequate opportunity for Congressional debate and public hearings on legislative proposals.
> 5.  Limit the influence of lobbyists.
> 6.  Require full disclosure for all public officials -- education, health, finances, taxes, military, etc.
> 7.  Require that cabinet members be experts in the departments they lead.
> 8.  Reduce focus and spending on military.
> 9.  Increase focus and spending on health care.
> 10.  And many more.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> Best,  Howard





The independent Congressional Budget Office [?] estimate that this Trumpcare bill will kill an estimate 22,000 American a year, each year for the first ten... then it really kick into gear. 

It's unbelievable that a "democracy" would not pass law for a living minimum wage. Forcing people to work two to three jobs just to make ends meet. Then if/when they get sick, practically tells them to go get stuffed and die elsewhere. 

The Democrats are no better though. Maybe slightly better in that they kill less people.


----------



## Tisme

I'm guessing those who still live under a rock incase facebook/twitter fell on them: you haven't seen this:


----------



## SirRumpole

That's one small step for Trump, a giant leap backwards for mankind.


----------



## basilio

The tub thumping in Korea will give us an idea of where we end up with Donald Trump as President of US.  Thought this story analysed the situation with a bit of venom.
* Ready or not, Trump may be about to face his first full-blown international crisis *

*Paul Waldman*
56 reading now
On the many occasions over the past five months during which US President Donald Trump demonstrated his deep ignorance, his alarming impulsiveness, his bottomless need for praise, or his tendency to lash out when criticised, one common response has been to ask, "What happens when he faces a genuine crisis with the need to make difficult decisions and lives are at stake?"

Well it looks as if we may be about to find out.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...own-international-crisis-20170705-gx5nhu.html


----------



## Logique

On goes the leftist group think, one must snipe at Trump to fit in.

Whatever Trump's perceived faults, at least he isn't Hillary or Obama.

Trump spoke beautifully in Poland yesterday, in front of an adoring audience, as Lech Walesa on the platform looked on. The Poles know a thing or two about oppression, about communism and fascism. Don't hold your breath waiting for Fairfax or the ABC to report this. 

For the benefit of the luvvie journalists at Fairfax and the ABC, Kościuszko is also the name of Australia's highest mountain.







> http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...rks-president-trump-people-poland-july-6-2017..
> ... Just steps from the White House, we’ve raised statues of men with names like Pułaski and Kościuszko.  (Applause.)  The same is true in Warsaw, where street signs carry the name of George Washington, and a monument stands to one of the world’s greatest heroes, Ronald Reagan.  (Applause.)
> 
> ...Through four decades of communist rule, Poland and the other captive nations of Europe endured a brutal campaign to demolish freedom, your faith, your laws, your history, your identity -- indeed the very essence of your culture and your humanity.  Yet, through it all, you never lost that spirit.  (Applause.)  Your oppressors tried to break you, but Poland could not be broken.  (Applause.) ...
> 
> ... Finally, on both sides of the Atlantic, our citizens are confronted by yet another danger -- one firmly within our control.  This danger is invisible to some but familiar to the Poles:  the steady creep of government bureaucracy that drains the vitality and wealth of the people....
> 
> ...AUDIENCE:  Donald Trump!  Donald Trump!  Donald Trump!...


----------



## McLovin

Logique said:


> Trump spoke beautifully in Poland yesterday, in front of an adoring audience, as Lech Walesa on the platform looked on. The Poles know a thing or two about oppression, about communism and fascism. Don't hold your breath waiting for Fairfax or the ABC to report this.




Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. It's funny how they booed Walesa but applauded Trump. So the "adoring audience" (LOL) with an intimate knowledge of oppression and communism boos the guy who led them from both toward democracy and cheers a reality TV star playing President.

Poland's lurching back toward being undemocratic led by the same people who were cheering on Trump. Short memory I'd say.


----------



## Logique

If you hadn't noticed McL, plenty of people are booing Malcolm Turnbull these days too. 

Some Poles booed Waleas, a Nobel Peace Prize winner (just like Obama..snap!), because in latter days his style became too abrupt, too internally divisive and too centralist. The Poles do not want to risk further progress in pursuit of their freedoms and an open democracy.


----------



## basilio

"Whatever Trump's perceived faults, at least he isn't Hillary or Obama."  Logique.

Fascinating.  We have one of the most corrupt, abusive, thin skinned, person to ever become Prez and you reckon at least he isn't Hilary or Obama. 
Well neither was Attila the Hun or Joe Stalin.  Should be dig them up and put them in charge because they aren't Hilary or Obama?  

A rapturous reception in Poland. Perhaps because truckloads of people were bused in swell the ranks of the rapturous? Perhaps because the Law and Justice Party is somewhere to the right of Trump himself is busily doing all the things Trump can only dream of ( Controlling the Press for a start).

SStart polishing your jack boots Logique. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40497732


----------



## Tink

The President - Ronald Reagan
The Pope -  Pope John Paul II
The Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher

How they changed the world.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> "Whatever Trump's perceived faults, at least he isn't Hillary or Obama."  Logique.
> 
> Fascinating.  We have one of the most corrupt, abusive, thin skinned, person to ever become Prez and you reckon at least he isn't Hilary or Obama.
> Well neither was Attila the Hun or Joe Stalin.  Should be dig them up and put them in charge because they aren't Hilary or Obama?
> 
> A rapturous reception in Poland. Perhaps because truckloads of people were bused in swell the ranks of the rapturous? Perhaps because the Law and Justice Party is somewhere to the right of Trump himself is busily doing all the things Trump can only dream of ( Controlling the Press for a start).
> 
> SStart polishing your jack boots Logique.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40497732



Clintons are dirtball insiders. Trumps a dirtball outsider. 
Calling someone out for being a fascist while the Democrats supporters  display worse behavior is telling. Do democrats really believe they are saving the world. 

CNN should be burnt to the ground for what they did. When did 'freedom of the press' include freedom to commit crime.


----------



## Logique

basilio said:


> "Whatever Trump's perceived faults, at least he isn't Hillary or Obama."  Logique.
> Fascinating.  We have one of the most corrupt, abusive, thin skinned, person to ever become Prez and you reckon at least he isn't Hilary or Obama.
> Well neither was Attila the Hun or Joe Stalin.  Should be dig them up and put them in charge because they aren't Hilary or Obama?
> A rapturous reception in Poland. Perhaps because truckloads of people were bused in swell the ranks of the rapturous? Perhaps because the Law and Justice Party is somewhere to the right of Trump himself is busily doing all the things Trump can only dream of ( Controlling the Press for a start).
> SStart polishing your jack boots Logique.
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40497732



Bas, give President Trump a chance. I refute your claim of jack boots.

Presidents Trump and Putin seem to be getting along famously.  A brief meeting ancillary to the G20 this morning stretched to 2hrs:20min, and defied several attempts by aides to cut it short.

It is not known whether President Trump requested a contribution to the Clinton Foundation. Nor to my knowledge is Trump running state business through a private web server.

But aside from this, isn't it international co-operation a good thing in the face of a maverick state like North Korea?


----------



## Logique

Tink said:


> The President - Ronald Reagan
> The Pope -  Pope John Paul II
> The Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher
> How they changed the world.



Cheers Tink, can't argue with that, great leaders all.


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> If you hadn't noticed McL, plenty of people are booing Malcolm Turnbull these days too.
> Some Poles booed _Waleas_, a Nobel Peace Prize winner (just like Obama..snap!), because in latter days his style became too abrupt, too internally divisive and too centralist. The Poles do not want to risk further progress in pursuit of their freedoms and an open democracy.



That's Lech _Walesa_, and I'm embarrassed by my typo. But Walesa was there on the podium, along with the rest.  He remains a national hero of Poland.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> The President - Ronald Reagan
> The Pope -  Pope John Paul II
> The Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher
> 
> How they changed the world.




If you like the world the 99% has been living in since the 80s, then praise Reagan and Thatcher. 
If it's not so great, blame it on them.

Reagan I can understand because he's just an idiot actor playing the role of president. Thatcher I thought would be smarter... so maybe she screw over her own poor working class slobs for entertainment (and profits to her masters).

I like how Pope John Paul II does not permit the use of condoms or contraception to prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS, particular in poor third world countries where the Church under him were not permitted to go against God's hatred for non-skin on skin contact. 

Probably killed a few million people with that kind of bs. 

Great to see the current Pope permit the use of condoms and contraception to regions affected by the Zika Virus.


----------



## luutzu

Logique said:


> Bas, give President Trump a chance. I refute your claim of jack boots.
> 
> Presidents Trump and Putin seem to be getting along famously.  A brief meeting ancillary to the G20 this morning stretched to 2hrs:20min, and defied several attempts by aides to cut it short.
> 
> It is not known whether President Trump requested a contribution to the Clinton Foundation. Nor to my knowledge is Trump running state business through a private web server.
> 
> But aside from this, isn't it international co-operation a good thing in the face of a maverick state like North Korea?





I take it you haven't been up to date on the news since Trump's inauguration? 

Fair enough he banned Muslims and refugees, hates Blacks, Mexicans, loathe the planet and don't care for clean air or potable water... but to kick another 24 million poor Americans out of healthcare; gut some $800Billions from medicare to seniors and kids; give at least $500B to the richest 1% of Americans... and "have no plan" to tax the rich to help pay for all those tax cuts to "the middle class". 

Yup, give him a chance. He might start grabbing 'em by hands once he's tired of grabbing them by the throat.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> I take it you haven't been up to date on the news since Trump's inauguration?




We don't seem to hear much about "the wall" these days. I wonder if that was the first goofy idea of his to fall flat.


----------



## Tink

As I have said, Luutzu, our country was built on our Christian values and traditions.

As was stated --

_Trump spoke in Krasinski Square, in a city entirely rebuilt after WWII, in front of a monument to 200,000 Poles killed in the heroic Warsaw uprising against the Nazis in 1944, as described in Norman Davies’ Rising ‘44. A secret pact between Hitler and Stalin saw Poland invaded by Nazi Germany from the west and the Soviet Union from the east, and then the Allies betrayed Poland to appease Stalin. 

The defeat of Hitler only plunged the Poles into nearly 50 years of Communist oppression.
But with the help of their own saint, Pope John Paul II, Trump said “the Poles reasserted their identity as a nation devoted to God. 
The story of Poland is the story of a people who have never lost hope, who have never been broken and who have never, ever forgotten who they are.
“And when the day came on June 2nd, 1979, and 1 million Poles gathered around Victory Square for their very first mass with their Polish pope, that day every Communist in Warsaw must have known that their oppressive system would soon come crashing down.

“They must have known it at the exact moment during Pope John Paul II’s sermon when a million Polish men, women and children suddenly raised their voices in a single prayer. A million Polish people did not ask for wealth. They did not ask for privilege. 

Instead, one million Poles saying three simple words: ‘We want God….’ And with that powerful declaration of who you are, you came to understand what to do and how to live.”_

-----------------------------------

_“The preciousness and equal worth of every human life is a Christian idea.”

Despite the common belief that secular statehood, equality of opportunity, individual rights and limited government are modern creations, all took root in Christian scripture. Christ embodied a revolution against the social order of His day by recognising the worth of human beings was not dictated by bloodlines, wealth or race.

Rather, each human being had inherent worth by virtue of being created by God in His image. The idea of inherent human worth gave rise to the concept that each of us is born equal yet with an individual purpose. The balance between equality and individuality was set in scripture. Equality of opportunity (as we now call it), is necessary to manifest our unique God-given talents.
The idea of inherent human worth forms the basis of modern democracy in which the citizen rules the state, not the reverse. But the full development of the citizen was enabled by another feature of Western civilisation.

“Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s: and to God, the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21). 
Christianity thus provides the ultimate defence against totalitarianism: the limited state.

The core values of Western society are intrinsically Christian._


----------



## Junior

SirRumpole said:


> We don't seem to hear much about "the wall" these days. I wonder if that was the first goofy idea of his to fall flat.




Recently he had a genius idea to cover The Wall in solar panels (clearly not his idea)......that seems inconsistent with his philosophy of time travelling back to 1955 and producing all energy using oil & coal.



> "You're the first group I've told that to, a solar wall, makes sense ... solar wall, panels, beautiful," Mr Trump said.
> 
> "I mean, actually think of it — the higher it goes the more valuable it is.
> 
> *"It's like ... pretty good imagination. Right? Good? My idea!"**
> 
> Solar panels along the wall are among proposals that have been submitted by companies to the Department of Homeland Security, according to media reports.




* this guy talks like he is in high school.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> We don't seem to hear much about "the wall" these days. I wonder if that was the first goofy idea of his to fall flat.




Ran out of cash. Only had some $20M to start drafting up a rough plan, and Ivanka or Jr. probably took half of it for consultation or something 

That and he was thinking that they ought to put solar panels to help the wall pay for itself. Then probably figured a few minutes later that that'll further balloon the budget by about half, and payback period will be a century or two if we go by how the great Aussie power companies sells at 22c but buy the same crap at 7c.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> As I have said, Luutzu, our country was built on our Christian values and traditions.
> 
> As was stated --
> 
> _Trump spoke in Krasinski Square, in a city entirely rebuilt after WWII, in front of a monument to 200,000 Poles killed in the heroic Warsaw uprising against the Nazis in 1944, as described in Norman Davies’ Rising ‘44. A secret pact between Hitler and Stalin saw Poland invaded by Nazi Germany from the west and the Soviet Union from the east, and then the Allies betrayed Poland to appease Stalin.
> 
> The defeat of Hitler only plunged the Poles into nearly 50 years of Communist oppression.
> But with the help of their own saint, Pope John Paul II, Trump said “the Poles reasserted their identity as a nation devoted to God.
> The story of Poland is the story of a people who have never lost hope, who have never been broken and who have never, ever forgotten who they are.
> “And when the day came on June 2nd, 1979, and 1 million Poles gathered around Victory Square for their very first mass with their Polish pope, that day every Communist in Warsaw must have known that their oppressive system would soon come crashing down.
> 
> “They must have known it at the exact moment during Pope John Paul II’s sermon when a million Polish men, women and children suddenly raised their voices in a single prayer. A million Polish people did not ask for wealth. They did not ask for privilege.
> 
> Instead, one million Poles saying three simple words: ‘We want God….’ And with that powerful declaration of who you are, you came to understand what to do and how to live.”_
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> _“The preciousness and equal worth of every human life is a Christian idea.”
> 
> Despite the common belief that secular statehood, equality of opportunity, individual rights and limited government are modern creations, all took root in Christian scripture. Christ embodied a revolution against the social order of His day by recognising the worth of human beings was not dictated by bloodlines, wealth or race.
> 
> Rather, each human being had inherent worth by virtue of being created by God in His image. The idea of inherent human worth gave rise to the concept that each of us is born equal yet with an individual purpose. The balance between equality and individuality was set in scripture. Equality of opportunity (as we now call it), is necessary to manifest our unique God-given talents.
> The idea of inherent human worth forms the basis of modern democracy in which the citizen rules the state, not the reverse. But the full development of the citizen was enabled by another feature of Western civilisation.
> 
> “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s: and to God, the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).
> Christianity thus provides the ultimate defence against totalitarianism: the limited state.
> 
> The core values of Western society are intrinsically Christian._




Honestly, you think a guy like Trump believe in God or "Christian value" and stuff? 

He's one of those psychos that preaches faith, God, goodness, beautiful babies... then on the other corner of his mouth, order sanctions that will starve and choke the poorest of people, threaten nuclear war that could end life on earth, kick millions of "his" own people off of health insurance. 

There are good and moral Christians, no doubt about that. There are also good and moral teachings in those Christian Holy Books too. Just we shouldn't mixed that with the psychotic tendencies of those who claim to uphold those values, believe in every word of that book. 

The Christian who enslave Africans believe all Man are created equal? We're all the same? We're all God's children? That's why they literally enshrine in their law that blacks are half as equal as the whites? 

Women have it a bit better than the savages though... they're about 3/4th the worth of a man. And because they can't think for themselves, they sholdn't be allowed to vote as that would only advantage married men.


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> The President - Ronald Reagan
> The Pope -  Pope John Paul II
> The Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher
> 
> How they changed the world.





Now I have to say there seems to be a lot of tautology there.

As I understood it in 1980 the Queen made a visit to the old fella in Rome to lay down the ground rules of the Empire. Likewise she had Thatcher take over the USA policy and directives through Nancy and Ronald.  Never underestimate the illuminati and the masons.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Honestly, you think a guy like Trump believe in God or "Christian value" and stuff?




He's not too phased knowing he has the backing of the Rothschilds. So when it comes to Putin......


https://geopolitics.co/2015/12/25/im-going-to-defeat-the-illuminati-with-my-bare-hands-putin-2016/


----------



## SirRumpole

Chris Ulhmann

_*He (Ulhmann) said the US President was seeking to turn his nation inward and likened him to a character from America's wild west — "a travelling medicine showman selling moonshine remedies that will kill the patient".
*_
How's that for a frank and fearless opinion ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...s-scathing-g20-report-on-donald-trump/8696236


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Chris Ulhmann
> 
> _*He (Ulhmann) said the US President was seeking to turn his nation inward and likened him to a character from America's wild west — "a travelling medicine showman selling moonshine remedies that will kill the patient".
> *_
> How's that for a frank and fearless opinion ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...s-scathing-g20-report-on-donald-trump/8696236




He would be a freak in the USA :- speaking articulately


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> He would be a freak in the USA :- speaking articulately




Yeah, the message might go right over their heads.


----------



## McLovin

Does Donny Jnr operate without the knowledge of his father? That's the question that either sinks the Trump family or just the son.

FWIW, I think there's no way Trump Snr didn't know about this meeting, the dirt they were promising, or that it was coming from the Russian government. Proving it is still an unknown. If these emails are legitimate (which doesn't seem in question given Jnr released them when the NY Times called and asked him for comment before they published them themselves), then that Russia tried to influence the outcome of the US election seems unequivocal, and the Trump campaign was both aware of Russia's influence and accepted help.

I don't blame the Russians, every foreign power would do the same. I blame the idiot in the Oval Office who thought nothing of enlisting the help of a foreign power to win the presidency.

I always thought Jnr seems like a bit of a dope.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> Proving it is still an unknown.




It probably doesn't matter whether Trump Snr knew about the meeting or not. It's another hole in the Swiss cheese of his Presidency which will weaken it untill it crumbles.


----------



## pixel

Hillary decided to send Trump a message to let him know how she felt.
He opened the letter to read a coded message

*370HSSV 0773H.*

Trump was baffled so asked his kids but no one could understand. 
FBI, CIA, NSA had no idea. So he referred it to MI6.

Within minutes, MI6 replied "Tell trump he is reading it upside down".


----------



## luutzu

pixel said:


> Hillary decided to send Trump a message to let him know how she felt.
> He opened the letter to read a coded message
> 
> *370HSSV 0773H.*
> 
> Trump was baffled so asked his kids but no one could understand.
> FBI, CIA, NSA had no idea. So he referred it to MI6.
> 
> Within minutes, MI6 replied "Tell trump he is reading it upside down".




How come he didn't send it to the KGB?


----------



## Tink

As I said, Luutzu, The Greens were singing the praises of Castro, who shot his own people and his political opponents.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-left.31648/


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> As I said, Luutzu, The Greens were singing the praises of Castro, who shot his own people and his political opponents.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-left.31648/




I'm pretty sure they didn't sing his praises for those acts. Maybe for the fact that he established universal healthcare and education for his people; train doctors and nurses and send them out to Haiti and other parts of the world whenever there's disasters - natural and man-made.

I don't know Castro and his crimes, but those things are a bit better than that "indispensable nation" sending out drones, jets, aircraft carriers, special ops, the CIA on liberation and peace-keeping missions. You know, flatten cities then give kids who managed to survived it some candies, their parents a few packs of food drops to call it even, and peace.

Then at home, give two shiet about thousands of its cities and their inhabitants not having clean or safe water to drink; working overtime, literally, to put 44 million of its poorest and most vulnerable people out of any chance of healthcare... all the while giving tax cuts to the richest of the rich. W. T. F. 

Good Hollywood movies though.


----------



## Tink

Cuba

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/cuba


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Cuba
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/cuba




The Heritage Foundation? Serious? I've only ever good things about them... freedom, Liberty Bell, repeal ObamaCare so that 24 more million Americans can go die in their home (or in the gutter)... you know, be with their family instead of with doctors, nurses and all those me'cine and stuff.

Again, I haven't really read much on the life and crimes of Castro, I only know the basic outline of Cuba's history. Judging from that historical perspective... and I'm not avoiding the questions of Castro crimes against humanity or whatever, just that when you discuss that you then have to ask whether his killing is any more or less evil than the killings ordered by all other head of states.

Anyway, the hate against Cuba has a lot more to do with the fact that Castro and his bandits dare stand up against the might of the United States. Dare to be free and independent of American influence and dictate.

You know how hard the yanks have to work to kick the Spanish out of the US's backyard? How hard they have to work to take over Cuba, turn the place to their Ag corporations, Casino operators and the Mafia?

When Castro and his Godless commies overthrew the US backed president of Cuba, they also shut down gambling and end the mob money laundering business. And of course they took the land and assets from American Ag. 

One of the reasons the Kennedy brothers want Castro dead was.. one, as patriotic Americans they cannot permit a band of hippies wresting independence from American imperialism. It sets very bad examples for others to follow.

And two, Daddy Kennedy has quite a connection to the mob. I heard from Gore Vidal, JFK's half-brother in law, that JFK won the race because he has money from both his father Joe and his Mafia friends. They help put him in office and won't mind a payback. 

Also from Gore Vidal... they didn't very much like the idea of failed coup attempts but RFK's stance against the mob really push them over the edge. 

All conspiracy theories I guess.


----------



## basilio

Tink said:


> Cuba
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/cuba




That was priceless  I noted that the last section said that trade was only moderately important to Cuba
s economy. In fact very little. 

Does this have anything to do with the fact that the USA has imposed a Trade Embargo on Cuba since 1958 ? What absolute, drivel..

*United States embargo against Cuba*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Cuban blockade" redirects here. For the 1962 weaponry blockade, see Cuban Missile Crisis § Quarantine.
John F. Kennedy and Fidel Castro
The *United States embargo against Cuba* (in Cuba called _*el bloqueo*_, "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed by the United States on Cuba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> That was priceless  I noted that the last section said that trade was only moderately important to Cuba
> s economy. In fact very little.
> 
> Does this have anything to do with the fact that the USA has imposed a Trade Embargo on Cuba since 1958 ? What absolute, drivel..
> 
> *United States embargo against Cuba*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "Cuban blockade" redirects here. For the 1962 weaponry blockade, see Cuban Missile Crisis § Quarantine.
> John F. Kennedy and Fidel Castro
> The *United States embargo against Cuba* (in Cuba called _*el bloqueo*_, "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed by the United States on Cuba.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba





I know right? Look at Cubans under the Castros... old cars, not trading with anybody.

They might be able to if you didn't sanction any other state against them. Would be able to if you didn't take their best port and turn it into your offshore prison camp. 

It's just like this recent headline and story I read on Reuters about Gaza.

Goes something like: Gazans malnourished and totally screwed 10 years after Hamas took power.

They go on about the three hour power, the raw sewage, the lack of drinking water, the high youth unemployment, the poverty etc. etc. since Hamas took over.

Then... then they say Israel sanctioned and blockade Gaza. Cut its power, only permit certain food, power and goods in, blocked Gaza's only trade access through Egypt... The Palestinian Authority turn against Hamas, withheld money etc. etc.

From the headline you swear they're saying that Hamas did the killing of Gazan Palestinians.


----------



## Tink

I am sure people will do their own research into Marxism and Cuba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism–Leninism


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> I am sure people will do their own research into Marxism and Cuba.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism–Leninism




I just thought it's funny this thing with Russia.


----------



## basilio

You have to hand it to The Don bringing in his own Consigliori to sort out the coms team at the White House. Tony Soprano would have Scaramucci sleeping with fishes years ago. The Don promotes him to head destroyer.

Where are the adults  ?

* Anthony Scaramucci is vindictive, petty and unprincipled – perfect for Trump *
Richard Wolffe
Bravado does not translate to any ability to fill the job of comms chief – but in the Trump White House, competency is of far less value than sycophancy


Richard Wolffe is a Guardian US columnist



Anthony Scaramucci: ‘The subject of his Inquisition are the devil-worshippers known as ‘leakers’ who speak to the press.’ Photograph: Joshua Roberts/Reuters

*Shares*
175
 

@richardwolffedc

Friday 28 July 2017 10.00 AEST   Last modified on Friday 28 July 2017 10.01 AEST

Anthony Scaramucci moves quickly, but not always coherently. In so many ways, the new White House communications director is so much like his boss: grotesquely entertaining like a drunken party before the projectile vomiting begins.

Scaramucci, as his call to the New Yorker so aptly demonstrated, is undisciplined and unprincipled, over-reaching and under-qualified, petty, vindictive, and above all, in love with his own image on TV. In short, he’s the perfectly-coiffed face of Donald Trump’s presidency.

Now there are some signs that he is not in fact the media maven so beloved by political reporters many moons ago, when he was named to his job last week. It turns out that a bravado briefing from the White House podium does not translate to any ability to fill the job of communications director.





* Anthony Scaramucci in furious, foul-mouthed attack on White House rivals *
Read more
But no matter. This is the Trump White House, where competency is of far less value than sycophancy, and virtuous staffers are worth rather less than a Ruby Tuesday special.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/27/anthony-scaramucci-donald-trump#img-1


----------



## basilio

Interesting to read The New Yorker story on the interview with Anthony Scaramucci.  Subtle as Al Capone baseball bat.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-...house-leakers-reince-priebus-and-steve-bannon


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> You have to hand it to The Don bringing in his own Consigliori to sort out the coms team at the White House. Tony Soprano would have Scaramucci sleeping with fishes years ago. The Don promotes him to head destroyer.




I'm surprised why any self respecting person would want to work for Trump. If anyone fits the bill of a corporate psychopath he does.


----------



## basilio

More fall out from the Groper-in-Chiefs speech to the Scouts.....  ?

*Girl Scouts Obtain Restraining Order Against Trump*




By Andy Borowitz

July 25, 2017





Photograph by Saul Loeb / AFP / Getty
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—In an extraordinary rebuke of the President of the United States, the Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. have obtained a restraining order against Donald J. Trump.
The order, which the Girls Scouts were granted on Monday night, prevents Trump from coming within three hundred feet of any gathering of the Scouts’ organization.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/girl-scouts-obtain-restraining-order-against-trump


----------



## orr

Tinkles ?? dear...
You are familiar with Ronald Reagan whilst Californian Gov calling in the national guard to the student protests in Berkley and  those shot to death??  (thought not)
You are aware of Henry Kissinger sabotage of the 1968 Paris peace talks that led to unnecessary deaths of  20,000 thats *Twenty-Thousand* US service men?? (thought not). Go straight to Christopher Hitchens 'Crimes of Henry Kissinger'
When and if you ever get a grasp on 'cause and effect'; do a little background on the 'Batista regime...'

luv your work back there Pix...


----------



## basilio

*The Emporer Nero of Washington. *

*The president is a pyromaniac': the week Trump set fire to the White House *
What went wrong? Take your pick: healthcare, transgender troops, the fallout from his savaging of Jeff Sessions, the Boy Scouts speech – it was the worst week in Trump’s short presidency

.....In five torrid days, the US president alienated conservatives by savaging his own attorney general; earned a rebuke from the Pentagon over a rushed ban on transgender troops; watched impotently as the Senate dealt a crushing blow to his legislative agenda with the fall of healthcare reform; ousted Priebus; and threw a human grenade – the new communications director, Anthony Scaramucci – into his already dysfunctional White House.

...Charlie Sykes, a conservative author and broadcaster, said: “It could have been one of his best weeks with the Foxconn announcement. But this has been his worst week ever and everything that has happened has been self-inflicted.

“You have a White House in meltdown because the president is a pyromaniac. The thing that’s got to rattle Republicans is the damage he’s doing to the administration, to the party and to the country.”

*Scaramucci is “Trump’s id”, Sykes said. “A friend said to me today, in a rational world, Scaramucci would have been fired for that interview. But in a rational world, Scaramucci would never have been hired. And in a rational world, Donald Trump would not be the president of the United States. We’re well past the rational world.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-healthcare-transgender-troops-jeff-sessions*


----------



## basilio

Ok it's old news now (like 2 days ago..) but I couldn't resist this story on the impact of Anthony Scaramucci in his brief, meteoric career as Whitehouse communciations director. 
Priceless..

*Scaramucci, one week in: civil war in the White House and an even wilder Trump *
It’s been one helluva week in the White House, and, like a shot of adrenaline, the president has found the arrival of his Mini-Me invigorating




Reince Priebus and Anthony Scaramucci in the Oval Office. Photograph: TJ Kirkpatrick for WSJ/Redux/Eyevine

*Shares*
2471

David Smith in Washington

 
@smithinamerica

Saturday 29 July 2017 21.15 AEST   Last modified on Tuesday 1 August 2017 05.05 AEST

If looks could kill. There is Anthony Scaramucci going full alpha male: chest out, shoulders back, thumbs on belt, feet planted solidly apart, eyes fixed in a deadly stare. There is Reince Priebus, less obviously macho but with a face like thunder as he glares back, a yawning chasm between them. Many historic photographs have been taken in the Oval Office, but few have captured mutual loathing so indelibly.

Scaramucci’s first week at the White House was one for the ages. The new communications director declared war on Priebus, branding him “a ******* paranoid schizophrenic” in what appeared to be a brazen play for his job as chief of staff – which, late on Friday, went instead to Gen John Kelly, the homeland security secretary*. *He roared from TV studio to TV studio, offering his street fighter’s defence of Donald Trump and vowing to take out leakers. And not least importantly, he seemingly jolted the president back into his most unfettered, unscripted, offensive and authentically Trump-like self.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/29/scaramucci-white-house-reince-priebus-donald-trump


----------



## basilio

Some background on The Mooch.
*The Mooch’ sleeps with the fishes*






Anthony Scaramucci.




*By Joan Vennochi* Globe Columnist  July 31, 2017
All the “Godfather” jokes suddenly became reality.

But it’s Anthony Scaramucci who’s toast. John Kelly, President Trump’s freshly minted chief of staff, was waiting for him at the toll booth and Scaramucci is out as communications director.

Scaramucci was a walking, talking ethnic stereotype: that vain, uncouth, absurdly macho Guido from the New York metropolitan area that for many Italian-Americans represents a caricature they long to escape. During his short tenure, the mobster references piled up like heaping servings of Grandma’s pasta. Nothing, including his stint at Harvard Law, seemed able to stop “the Mooch” from being “the Mooch.” Nothing except Kelly, a retired four-star Marine general from Boston who Trump brought on to bring order to a chaotic White House.

Scaramucci’s vulgar rant to The New Yorker’s Ryan Lizza launched columns and comedy routines about thugs and mobsters. Yet, like his hero Trump, Scaramucci relished almost any attention. 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...NM/story.html?p1=Article_Trending_Most_Viewed


----------



## basilio

What is the background behind Vladimir Putins control of Russia and attempts to influence the US election ? This story of a businessman who worked in Russia is powerful.

*Bill Browder's Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing Could Explain Anthony Scaramucci's Bizarre Behaviour*
*Deliberate?*

*http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/20...ry-you-missed-whilst-distracted-b_a_23057794/*


----------



## DB008

Tucker calling 'em out....

​


----------



## basilio

The flood of people and organisations abandoning Donald Trump and questioning his character, leadership, credibilty and basic capacity to be a President is turning into a river. 

* 'I-M-P-E-A-C-H': Donald Trump's science envoy quits, with letter embedded with message *

*Amy B Wang*
*Washington:* Daniel Kammen, a renewable energy expert appointed last year as a science envoy to the State Department, resigned on Wednesday, citing President Donald Trump's response to the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, as the final straw that led to his departure.

In a resignation letter posted to Twitter, Kammen wrote that Trump's remarks about the racial violence in Virginia had attacked "core values of the United States" and that it would have "domestic and international ramifications."

*Trump hits out at media over Charlottesville*
US President Donald Trump blames the media for the widespread condemnation of his response to a Charlottesville protest organised by white supremacists.

However, his most biting message may have come in the form of a hidden acrostic; the first letter of each paragraph spelled out "I-M-P-E-A-C-H."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...er-embedded-with-message-20170823-gy2twn.html


----------



## basilio

A few days ago it was the turn of the Business Councils that Donald Trump has brought together to refuse to be part of his administration after the Charlottesville comments by the President.

* Trump disbands business councils as CEOs flee after Charlottesville remarks *
The collapse of the advisory bodies follows seven different corporate leaders stepping down in recent days after Trump’s controversial remarks
Donald Trump speaking to the press about protests in Charlottesville at Trump Tower in New York. Photograph: Jim Watson/AFP/Getty Images

*Shares*
2542

Ben Jacobs in Washington

 
@Bencjacobs

Thursday 17 August 2017 04.35 AEST   Last modified on Thursday 17 August 2017 09.38 AEST

Donald Trump was forced to disband two White House business councils that were disintegrating around him on Wednesday in the wake of his controversial remarks about the weekend violence in Charlottesville.

The Strategic and Policy Forum and the White House Manufacturing Jobs Initiative were both dissolved as corporate leaders continued to resign.

Trump claimed in a tweet that this was his decision, writing: “Rather than putting pressure on the businesspeople of the Manufacturing Council & Strategy & Policy Forum, I am ending both. Thank you all!”
The collapse of the advisory bodies follows seven different corporate leaders stepping down from the two councils in recent days including the CEOs of both Campbell’s Soup and 3M on Wednesday.

Trump had previously stated that resignations from both panels were of no consequence. “For every CEO that drops out of the Manufacturing Council, I have many to take their place. Grandstanders should not have gone on. JOBS!” he said on Twitter on Tuesday.

Wednesday’s abrupt decision came after Trump confidante Stephen Schwarzman, chief executive of the Blackstone Group, held a conference call for about a dozen members of the strategic and policy forum who decided to abandon it, the New York Times reported. Executives from the manufacturing council had been due to hold a similar call that afternoon, the paper added.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...isory-councils-disbanded-ceos-charlottesville


----------



## basilio

This morning James Clapper ex Intelligence Chief made his concerns clear.

*James Clapper calls Trump speech 'downright scary and disturbing'*
By Leinz Vales, CNN

Updated 1901 GMT (0301 HKT) August 23, 2017


(CNN)James Clapper, former director of National Intelligence, said Wednesday morning he questioned President Donald Trump's fitness for office.

"I really question his ability to be -- his fitness to be -- in this office, and I also am beginning to wonder about his motivation for it," Clapper told CNN's Don Lemon on "CNN Tonight."
Hours after Trump delivered a defiant speech in Phoenix, Arizona, Clapper said he found the President's rally "downright scary and disturbing."

*Clapper denounced Trump's "behavior and divisiveness and complete intellectual, moral and ethical void." 
"How much longer does the country have to, to borrow a phrase, endure this nightmare?"*
"He should have quit while he was ahead after last night," Clapper referring to Trump's announcement on US strategy in Afghanistan. "Again, I think the real Trump came through."

Clapper also said he is worried about the President's access to the nuclear codes.
*"In a fit of pique he decides to do something about Kim Jong Un, there's actually very little to stop him," Clapper said. "The whole system is built to ensure rapid response if necessary. So there's very little in the way of controls over exercising a nuclear option, which is pretty damn scary."*

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/p...rump-phoenix-rally-don-lemon-cnntv/index.html


----------



## dutchie




----------



## basilio

Hmmm.

Well Dutchie if anyone was in any way unclear on your position regarding Neo Nazis , KKK, White Supremicists ect the lights have come on. 

So on that topic.
*US man who said he was stabbed for looking like neo-Nazi actually stabbed himself *
Colorado man, whose claim of being stabbed for looking like neo-Nazi went viral earlier this month, admits to faking police report after knife accident 




Joshua Lee Witt lied to officers about being attacked by a black man. He claim was picked up by the conservative press as an example of leftwing violence. Photograph: Courtesy of Sheridan police department

*Shares*
4850

Sam Levin in San Francisco
 
email

Tuesday 29 August 2017 05.59 AEST   Last modified on Tuesday 29 August 2017 06.22 AEST

A Colorado man who claimed that someone had stabbed him because he looked like a “neo-Nazi” fabricated the story after he accidentally cut his hand with a knife, according to police.

Joshua Witt, who has been arrested on false reporting charges, admitted to law enforcement in Sheridan, Colorado, that he lied to officers when he alleged that a black man had attacked him for having a haircut associated with white supremacists, police officials said Monday.

Witt’s original allegations went viral on social media this month, garnering press coverage across the globe, particularly from conservative newspapers that cited the stabbing as an example of violent leftwing activists attacking white people.

Witt – a 26-year-old originally from San Diego, California – told officers on 16 August that a suspect came up to him as he was getting out of his car in the parking lot of a burger restaurant. Witt, according to police, reported that the man said, “Are you [one] of them neo-Nazi?” and then tried to stab him with a small knife. Witt said that he was cut while trying to block the knife with his hand.

Witt described the attacker as a black man in his mid 20s, 5ft 10in, wearing a green shirt and blue pants, and claimed that the suspect ran off toward a bike path along a nearby river.

Sheridan police chief Mark Campbell said in an interview Monday that officers were immediately suspicious of Witt’s story, since the attack allegedly happened in a very busy parking lot and police received no other reports of an assault.

“No one else called this in,” he said. “No one heard him scream. No one saw any type of altercation. That was the first red flag.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/28/neo-nazi-stabbing-fake-colorado-joshua-witt


----------



## dutchie

A lot of wankers on all/both sides!


----------



## SirRumpole




----------



## basilio

Exc Rumpy.  Just saw the Sounds of Silence parody. Reposted it on You Tube videos
TFM


----------



## SirRumpole

The bad taste king strikes again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...s-video-hillary-clinton-hit-golf-ball/8955430

How much longer do we have to put up with him ?


----------



## PZ99

Crack up 



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox


----------



## basilio

Where are we going with the Adult Day care  centre ?

* Bob Corker says White House is 'adult day care center' after Trump Twitter hit *

Trump blasts Corker on Iran, ‘negative voice’ and ‘begging’ for endorsement

Senator’s spokesman says president in fact asked him not to retire
After Donald Trump issued a fierce Twitter rebuke of Bob Corker, the retiring Republican senator tweeted back: “*It’s a shame the White House has become an adult day care center. Someone obviously missed their shift this morning.”*

The exchange between the president and the chair of the Senate foreign relations committee was the latest undignified episode in Trump’s bizarre and fractious relationship with the Republican establishment and parts of his own administration. Trump’s treatment of secretary of state Rex Tillerson this week prompted remarks from Corker that were seen as critical of the president.

Midway through Sunday morning, Trump wrote: “Senator Bob Corker ‘begged’ me to endorse him for re-election in Tennessee. I said ‘NO’ and he dropped out (said he could not win without my endorsement).

“He also wanted to be secretary of state, I said ‘NO THANKS.’ He is also largely responsible for the horrendous Iran deal!

“Hence, I would fully expect Corker to be a negative voice and stand in the way of our great agenda. Didn’t have the guts to run!”

In a statement to the Guardian, Corker’s chief of staff, Todd Womack, directly contradicted Trump.

“The president called Senator Corker on Monday afternoon and asked him to reconsider his decision not to seek re-election and reaffirmed that he would have endorsed him, as he has said many times,” he said.

Corker was considered for both vice-president and secretary of state and was a key Trump ally during much of the 2016 campaign. He has since become a vocal critic. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ite-house-adult-day-care-center-trump-twitter


----------



## basilio

* Trump says 'only one thing will work' with nuclear-armed North Korea *

President says Pyongyang ‘making fools of US negotiators’ for 25 years
Trump refuses to elaborate and criticises secretary of state again
Donald Trump on Saturday said “only one thing will work” in dealing with North Korea, after previous administrations had talked to Pyongyang without results.

Presidents and their administrations have been talking to North Korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid,” Trump wrote on Twitter. “Hasn’t worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, making fools of US negotiators. Sorry, but only one thing will work!“

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/07/donald-trump-nuclear-north-korea


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Where are we going with the Adult Day care  centre ?
> 
> * Bob Corker says White House is 'adult day care center' after Trump Twitter hit *
> 
> Trump blasts Corker on Iran, ‘negative voice’ and ‘begging’ for endorsement
> 
> Senator’s spokesman says president in fact asked him not to retire
> After Donald Trump issued a fierce Twitter rebuke of Bob Corker, the retiring Republican senator tweeted back: “*It’s a shame the White House has become an adult day care center. Someone obviously missed their shift this morning.”*
> 
> The exchange between the president and the chair of the Senate foreign relations committee was the latest undignified episode in Trump’s bizarre and fractious relationship with the Republican establishment and parts of his own administration. Trump’s treatment of secretary of state Rex Tillerson this week prompted remarks from Corker that were seen as critical of the president.
> 
> Midway through Sunday morning, Trump wrote: “Senator Bob Corker ‘begged’ me to endorse him for re-election in Tennessee. I said ‘NO’ and he dropped out (said he could not win without my endorsement).
> 
> “He also wanted to be secretary of state, I said ‘NO THANKS.’ He is also largely responsible for the horrendous Iran deal!
> 
> “Hence, I would fully expect Corker to be a negative voice and stand in the way of our great agenda. Didn’t have the guts to run!”
> 
> In a statement to the Guardian, Corker’s chief of staff, Todd Womack, directly contradicted Trump.
> 
> “The president called Senator Corker on Monday afternoon and asked him to reconsider his decision not to seek re-election and reaffirmed that he would have endorsed him, as he has said many times,” he said.
> 
> Corker was considered for both vice-president and secretary of state and was a key Trump ally during much of the 2016 campaign. He has since become a vocal critic.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ite-house-adult-day-care-center-trump-twitter





It's the weekend and his handlers were home with their family. What's an idiot to do but call people names, threaten wars on everybody?

Dangerous times. Given Trump's ego and tendency to give fark-all about other people, all these tough talks will have to be backed up some muscle and carpet bombing right?

But Mr. President, little rocket man just said you're all talk and no action. You're weak and your tiny little fingers can't push the button even if your dyslexia somehow managed to read the prompter.

Oh yea? Bring me that FootBall dam it!


----------



## SirRumpole

And we thought Turnbull-Aboott was bad. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...ter-than-tillerson-but-has-confidence/9037000


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> And we thought Turnbull-Aboott was bad.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...ter-than-tillerson-but-has-confidence/9037000



Lol thats gold.
What's he going to do next?  Dick measuring contests?


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Lol thats gold.
> What's he going to do next?  Dick measuring contests?




His IQ may be bigger than his dick, just.


----------



## Logique

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/
Hillary Clinton
In a special edition of Four Corners, Hillary Clinton, in her only Australian television interview, talks with Sarah Ferguson.

This riveting conversation, recorded in New York, takes us into the heart and mind of the woman at the centre of the most stunning election loss in modern US history.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Isn't she good at lying through her eye teeth. Must run in the family. They live in a seperate world.


----------



## moXJO

Wysiwyg said:


> Isn't she good at lying through her eye teeth. Must run in the family. They live in a seperate world.



All this bs by overstating  Russian hacker influence, sexism and whatever other excuse she could find. 

That's not why she lost.


----------



## basilio

In insiders view on how Donald Trump needs to be managed (to save all our necks.) 
God help us..

*The Infantilization of the President*
Aides have doubted prior presidents’ wisdom, health, or sobriety, but never have so many insiders treated the commander-in-chief like a child.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/infantilization-of-a-president/542613/


----------



## Wysiwyg

At 70 he is entering the stage where he needs to be looked after. I would be surprised if, minus the daily script, he has all his marbles in the bag. Unfortunately age doesn't bring wisdom to everyone.


----------



## luutzu

Wysiwyg said:


> At 70 he is entering the stage where he needs to be looked after. I would be surprised if, minus the daily script, he has all his marbles in the bag. Unfortunately age doesn't bring wisdom to everyone.





With Trump, age, money, political power just intensify his stupidity, arrogance, racist, ego.

Basically, we're asking the question the US press has been asking of what Tillerson said of Trump: A "moron" or a "f*rking moron".



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...ef-trump-slams-puerto-rico-idUSKBN1CH1A7?il=0


----------



## Logique

This may not be the right thread, but here goes. The clip is hilarious, young Candace really nails them







>





> SHE DOESN’T MISS - Tim Blair, The Daily Telegraph
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bl...s/news-story/daf09ecf537943e0fa9017136783754d
> October 14, 2017
> The left just keeps losing, and *Candace Owens* is absolutely loving it.
> Please enjoy her gleeful evisceration of Hollywood’s Hillary weepers and their Harvey Weinstein hypocrisy, logic-free NRA blamers and the race-obsessed networks now writing Eminem’s songs


----------



## basilio

*Back to The Future.  How about a 20,000 strong White Supremicist rally in New York? *
It happened in 1939 with the Amercian Nazi party.

Very impressive indeed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/542499/marshall-curry-nazi-rally-madison-square-garden-1939/


----------



## basilio

*Is there a connection between White Supremicist/KKK/Nazi Rallies in the 30's and the Racist in Chief in the White House?*
Very direct, very close. Fred Trump. Donalds father was arrested in 1927 during a KKK rally.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/our-commander-in-chief-and-the-kkk_us_59906c7fe4b063e2ae05808e


By Philip Bump February 29, 2016





Klan members march through Queens in May 1927. (Brooklyn Daily Eagle)
_This piece has been updated._

When he was asked on CNN's "State of the Union" on Sunday whether he would condemn the praise of former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard David Duke, Donald Trump declined to disavow Duke's comments.

During appearances on network television Feb. 28, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump repeatedly declined to refuse the endorsement of David Duke, a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. While Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz both took aim at Trump. (The Washington Post)
"I don’t know anything about David Duke, okay," Trump said. "I don’t know anything about what you’re even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists. I don't know, did he endorse me? Or what's going on. Because I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacists."

In 2000, Trump declined to run for president as a member of the Reform Party because the "Reform Party now includes a Klansman, Mr. Duke, a neo-Nazi, Mr. Buchanan, and a communist, Ms. Fulani. This is not company I wish to keep." As Trump himself noted on Twitter, he also disavowed Duke in a news conference earlier this week.

But this incident also brings to mind another report, unearthed in September by the technology blog Boing Boing.





On Memorial Day 1927, brawls erupted in New York led by sympathizers of the Italian fascist movement and the Ku Klux Klan. In the fascist brawl, which took place in the Bronx, two Italian men were killed by anti-fascists. In Queens, 1,000 white-robed Klansmen marched through the Jamaica neighborhood, eventually spurring an all-out brawl in which seven men were arrested.

One of those arrested was Fred Trump of 175-24 Devonshire Rd. in Jamaica.
This is Donald Trump's father. Trump had a brother named Fred, but he wasn't born until more than a decade later. The Fred Trump at Devonshire Road was the Fred C. Trump who lived there with his mother, according to the 1930 Census.





The predication for the Klan to march, according to a flier passed around Jamaica beforehand, was that "Native-born Protestant Americans" were being "assaulted by Roman Catholic police of New York City." "Liberty and Democracy have been trampled upon," it continued, "when native-born Protestant Americans dare to organize to protect one flag, the American flag; one school, the public school; and one language, the English language."



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...a-klan-riot-in-queens/?utm_term=.7749900fd1d6


----------



## Logique

Julian Assange saw Hillary Clinton interviewed Monday night on ABC Four Corners. He responded on Twitter:







> https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/919694695286099968
> Julian Assange  @JulianAssange - 15 Oct 2017
> Julian Assange  - Retweeted 4corners
> *There's something wrong with Hillary Clinton*. It is not just her constant lying.  It is not just that she throws off menacing glares and *seethes thwarted entitlement*. Watch closely. Something much darker rides along with it. A cold creepiness rarely seen.


----------



## basilio

This was alegedly a satirical article. But something doesn't look right.

*White House Says It Is Unpatriotic to Offer Irrefutable Video Evidence That a General Lied*




By Andy Borowitz

6:58 P.M.





Photograph by Brendan Smialowski / AFP / Getty
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—In a stirring defense of Donald Trump’s chief of staff, General John Kelly, the White House press secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, said on Friday that it was “unpatriotic in the extreme” to offer irrefutable video proof that a four-star general lied.

“It is unpatriotic enough to accuse a four-star general of lying,” Sanders told the White House press corps. “But to make available a video that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that that general lied is unpatriotic bordering on treasonous.”

Warming to her subject, Sanders said that any American who sees undeniable video evidence that a general lied and chooses to believe the video “shows disrespect for our country and hatred for our flag.”

“General Kelly has served our country with courage and valor,” she said. “He has earned the right to lie without fear of being contradicted by the facts.”
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/bor...rrefutable-video-evidence-that-a-general-lied


----------



## SirRumpole

Sometime politicians and public servants have to lie in the public interest. 

If they are caught out though then maybe they just have to admit it and justify it as being in the national interest instead of digging themselves into a deeper hole.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Sometime politicians and public servants have to lie in the public interest.
> 
> If they are caught out though then maybe they just have to admit it and justify it as being in the national interest instead of digging themselves into a deeper hole.




Yes... Sometimes the do have to lie in the National interest.

Trump just lies because he is a vain glorious narcissist who even when the most obvious  and petty falsehood is challenged doubles down and defends the indefensible. IE how big was his inauguration crowd.

He debases the office of President.


----------



## notting

Trump seems to understand how to divert the attention of the electorate to his advantage.
He's working at that level.
You can't get voted in, in the states, if you don't say you believe in God.
Their morons


----------



## Logique

Well at least he's not Hillary







> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...m/news-story/75836a2e8fa4f5257f4a9a3d12dca52c
> 
> There was Russian bribery and corruption in the US political process, after all, but Hillary Clinton is the one that needs to do the explaining...


----------



## wayneL

PRESIDENT TRUMP in 9 Months, just in case people say Trump hasn't done anything. Add any I’ve forgotten in comments
1. Supreme Court Judge Neil Gorsuch ⚖️
2. Iran Nuclear Deal NOT recertified. 
3. Trump took us out of TPP
4. ILLEGAL immigration is now down 70%( the lowest in 17 years)
5. Consumer confidence highest since 2000
6. Mortgage applications for new homes rise to a 7 year high.
7. Arranged 20% Tariff on soft lumber from Canada. 
8. Bids for BORDER WALL are well underway & Border wall is being built.
9. Pulled out of the lopsided PARIS ACCORD. ✔️
10. KEYSTONE pipeline approved. 
11. NATO allies boost spending by 4.3%
12. Allowing VETERAN'S ADMINISTRATION to terminate bad employees. 
13. Allowing private healthcare choices for VETERANS. 
14. More than 1.8 Million JOBS created
15. Median household income at a 7 year high.  
16. The Stock Market is at the highest ever In its history. Up 25% since President Trumps Election (up $5.3 Trillion)
17. China agreed to American import of beef. 
18. $89 Billion saved in regulation rollbacks.  ✔️
19. Rollback of A Regulation to boost COAL MINING.
20. MOAB for ISIS
21. TRAVEL BAN reinstated.
22. Executive order for RELIGIOUS  ✝️ FREEDOM. 
23. Jump started NASA  
24. $600 million cut from UN peacekeeping budget. 
25. Targeting of MS13 gangs
26. Deporting violent illegal immigrants. 
27. Signed 41 bills to date
28. Created a commission on child trafficking 
29. Created a commission on VOTER FRAUD ✅ ⚖️
30. Created a commission for OPIOD ADDICTION.  
31. Giving power to states to drug test unemployment recipients. 
32. Unemployment lowest since may 2007. 
33. Pardoned Sheriff Arpaio
34. WOMEN In Entrepreneurship Act  
35. Created an office or illegal immigrant crime victims. 
36. Reversed Dodd-Frank
37. Repealed DOT ruling which would have taken power away from local governments for infrastructure planning
38. Order to stop crime against LAW ENFORCEMENT
39. End of DAPA program. 
40. Stopped companies from moving out of America.   ❤️
41. Promoted businesses to create American Jobs.  
42. Encouraged country to once again Buy American and hire American
43. Cutting regulations 2 for every one created.  ✂️
44. Review of all trade agreements to make sure they are America first.
45. Mandatory Birth Control mandate removed from ObamaCare. 
46. Highest manufacturing surge in 3 years. 
47. $78 Billion promised reinvestment from major businesses like Exxon, Bayer, Apple, SoftBank, Toyota...
48. Denied FBI a new building. 
49. $700 Million saved with F-35 renegotiation.  ✈️
50. Saves $22 million by reducing white house payroll. 
51. President Trump donates his salary (To National Park Service and Dept of Education so far)
52. Dept of treasury reports a $182 billion surplus for April 2017
(2nd largest in history)
53. Negotiated the release of 6 US humanitarian workers held captive in egypt. 
54. Gas prices lowest in more than 12 years.
55. Signed An Executive Order To Promote Energy Independence And Economic Growth
56. Has already accomplished more to stop government interference into people's lives than any President in the history of America. 
57. President Trump has worked with Congress to pass more legislation in his first 100 days than any President.
58.  U.S. Debt has decreased by $103 billion (Obama increased the debt by $974 Billion in his first 6 months) 
59. Tough Decisive Decisions on North Korea after Decades of Failure (Clinton gaven them $5 Billion to create Nukes & Obama did nothing to safeguard America)
60. Signed Memo to address China Laws, policies & actions related to innovation, intellectual property & Technology.
61. Signed the VA Choice & Quality Employment Act (8/13/2017)
62. Three (3) Major Hurricanes (Harvey, Irma & Maria) affecting multiple states with great cooperation between Governors, President Trump & FEMA. 
63. Consumer Confidence is at a 16 year high & unemployment is at a 17 year low. 
64. Called out ALL Hate Groups ( KKK,  ANTIFA,  White Supremists,  BLM) after Charlottesville. 
65. Rewriting Environmental Rules - EPA
66. The DOJ to stop funding Sanctuary Cities. 
67. Signed Executive Order to allow purchasing Healthcare across state lines .
68. No subsidies to be paid to the Insurance Companies for ObamaCare (ObamaFraud)
69. Winning against NFL kneelers by Demanding respect for the Anthem & American Flag
70. America First Energy Plan - boosting domestic Coal Technology by achieving energy independence from OPEC cartel.
71. 2018 Budget will be approved
72. DOW passes 23,000
73. Continues to prove that the  MSM is #Fakenews
74. Tax Reform Initiative   will be the biggest tax break in history for the Middle Class
75. #UraniumOne Investigation  ⚖️ under way.
President Trump & VP Pence for 2020   Copy & Share!u


----------



## bellenuit

Most of these are undoing things, not doing things. And a lot of the rest is what was happening anyway under Obama (Dow trends etc.)


----------



## wayneL

Whatever,  justify anything you want,  but the reality is very different from the narrative


----------



## CanOz

Are you trying to justify that piece of crap in the Whitehouse?


----------



## SirRumpole

You can DO things, whether those things are good is another matter.

People have criticised his handling of hurricane relief, and a lot of his other actions are up for debate as to whether they are beneficial and to whom.


----------



## wayneL

CanOz said:


> Are you trying to justify that piece of crap in the Whitehouse?



I still prefer this piece of crap over the other piece of crap.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I still prefer this piece of crap over the other piece of crap.




You mean Obama or Clinton ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> You mean Obama or Clinton ?



Clinton.

and I'm still holding to hope that I have on record here, that though the Trump presidency might not be what America might hope for, it might lead on something better than either option currently


----------



## satanoperca

Go WayneL, bring some facts into an emotional agreement about personalities rather than achievements.

At least he is changing the status quo, as the status quo has done jack **** for the dying empire of the USA


----------



## moXJO

I agree with Wayne.
Trump was a needed stepping stone to break the cycle. I still think Hillary would be worse in the long run.


----------



## basilio

Another US Senator will  retire from office rather than be seen to continue Republican support for Donald Trump. What does he see wrong with Donald Trumps Presidency ?

* GOP Senator Jeff Flake attacks 'reckless, outrageous and undignified' Trump *
The Arizona senator joined a list of high-profile Republicans, including Bob Corker, who have opted to retire amid the turmoil of Donald Trump’s presidency


Jeff Flake’s speech: ‘Anger and resentment are not a governing philosophy’

1:24
Senator Jeff Flake announces he won’t seek re-election – video

*Shares*
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Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington

 
@SabrinaSiddiqui

Wednesday 25 October 2017 09.01 BST   First published on Tuesday 24 October 2017 21.01 BST

Arizona senator Jeff Flake has launched an extraordinary attack against Donald Trump and the “complicity” of the Republican party as he announced his decision to leave the Senate.

Flake, a key Republican critic of Trump, said he was retiring at the end of his term in 2018 because there was no room for him in the party under the current president’s stewardship. He then delivered an emotional appeal from the Senate floor against the state of affairs under Trump, bemoaning that his Republican colleagues had “given in or given up on core principles in favor of a more viscerally satisfying anger and resentment”.






* Jeff Flake: conservatives face a crisis. We must now tell and expect the truth *
Read more
“It is time for our complicity and our accommodation for the unacceptable to end,” Flake said. “There are times when we must risk our careers in favor of our principles. Now is such a time.
*

“We must never allow ourselves to lapse into thinking that that is just the way things are now,” he added. “We must stop pretending that the degradation of our politics and the conduct of some in our executive branch are normal.”*

*“Reckless, outrageous, and undignified behavior has become excused and countenanced as ‘telling it like it is’ when it is actually just reckless, outrageous, and undignified.”*

He said such behavior was “dangerous to our democracy” and projected not strength but a “corruption of the spirit”. He then asked his colleagues: “When the next generation asks us: ‘Why didn’t you do something? Why didn’t you speak up? What are we going to say?’”

Flake joins a list of high-profile Republicans who have jumped ship in recent months amid the turmoil of Trump’s presidency. Bob Corker, the chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee, declared his retirement last month and has since been locked in a bitter feud with Trump that reached new heights on Tuesday.
... 
“*The alliances and agreements that ensure the stability of the entire world are routinely threatened by the level of thought that goes into 140 characters,” Flake said. “Would we Republicans meekly accept such behavior on display from dominant Democrats? Of course we wouldn’t. And we would be wrong if we did.”*

“When we remain silent and fail to act ... because of political considerations, because we might make enemies, because we might alienate the base,” he added, “we dishonor our principles and forsake our obligations.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/24/jeff-flake-retire-republican-senate-trump


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## CanOz

wayneL said:


> I still prefer this piece of crap over the other piece of crap.




My beef didn't appear as Trump ad president did....I had my opinion of him for over a decade. At one time I devoured business books faster than I now do children's books. About 15 years ago I read an unauthorized biography on the blond a$$hole. I'll try and find the author and title...but it was long and scathing. In a nutshell he widely know to be a self centered, ignorant, silver spoon fed...
Amateur golfer at best.


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## basilio

*Conscience of a Conservative.*


* Jeff Flake: conservatives face a crisis. We must now tell and expect the truth *
Donald Trump assuaged the public with happy talk, but once the populist fever abates, truth must fill that void, argues Arizona Republican senator* Jeff Flake *in an excerpt from his new book

‘It is a testament to just how far we fell in 2016 that to resist the fever and stand up for conservatism seemed a radical act.’
Photograph: Ralph Freso/Getty Images

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* Comments*
 87 

Jeff Flake

Monday 7 August 2017 22.14 BST   Last modified on Tuesday 8 August 2017 16.51 BST

There is no bigger bogeyman for conservatives than some liberal who wants to interfere in the market to “pick winners and losers”. We have long been critical of the corruptions of the free market advocated by “progressives” and crony capitalists, and we’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of that “winners and losers” line.

Until 2016, that is.

As Emerson said: “An institution is the lengthened shadow of one man.” I will add to that: of no institution is this more true than the American presidency.

Impulsive and lacking a coherent economic analysis, Trump moved beyond the election attempting to demonstrate his vaunted deal-making abilities. He promptly began to commit Hayek’s fatal conceit, but with a twist that not even Hayek himself could have imagined: the new president would not merely demonstrate a preference for specific sectors of the economy, he would meddle in the economy by advocating for – or conversely, by intimidating – _specific companies_.

*To conservatives, this is the essence of crony capitalism. For the conservative, the role of government is to create a conducive tax and regulatory environment and let the free market prosper. But if a president is incoherently intervening wherever he or she sees fit, it can only lead to bad things.* Trump would go on to propose the worst kind of uneconomic “deals” with the coal miners who so ardently supported him and believed his promises about the resurgence of an industry long in decline, but their old jobs really weren’t coming back.

Virtually every public utility in the country had already made the market decision to move away from coal. Obama administration environmental regulations had certainly hastened these market changes, but abundant and cleaner natural gas was a larger culprit. One irony was that the most sustainable coal jobs involved coal for export – to trade with China.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/08/conservative-republican-jeff-flake-donald-trump


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## CanOz

Ahh.... Here it is....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumped!_(book)


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## CanOz

I doeagree with moxjo Wayne and satenopera that change was needed...but why such a f&&$wit?? They could have had ross perot or "insert any other popular libertarian".....


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## wayneL

CanOz said:


> I doeagree with moxjo Wayne and satenopera that change was needed...but why such a f&&$wit?? They could have had ross perot or "insert any other popular libertarian".....



Well, yes indeed


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## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> I doeagree with moxjo Wayne and satenopera that change was needed...but why such a f&&$wit?? They could have had ross perot or "insert any other popular libertarian".....




They could have had Bernie Sanders too. I think he would have won and would have done a good job.


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## Logique

wayneL said:


> PRESIDENT TRUMP in 9 Months, just in case people say Trump hasn't done anything. Add any I’ve forgotten in comments
> 1. Supreme Court Judge Neil Gorsuch ⚖️
> 2. Iran Nuclear Deal NOT recertified.
> 3. Trump took us out of TPP
> 4. ILLEGAL immigration is now down 70%( the lowest in 17 years)
> 5. Consumer confidence highest since 2000
> 6. Mortgage applications for new homes rise to a 7 year high.
> 7. Arranged 20% Tariff on soft lumber from Canada.
> 8. Bids for BORDER WALL are well underway & Border wall is being built.
> 9. Pulled out of the lopsided PARIS ACCORD. ✔️
> 10. KEYSTONE pipeline approved.
> 11. NATO allies boost spending by 4.3%
> 12. Allowing VETERAN'S ADMINISTRATION to terminate bad employees.
> 13. Allowing private healthcare choices for VETERANS.
> 14. More than 1.8 Million JOBS created
> 15. Median household income at a 7 year high.
> 16. The Stock Market is at the highest ever In its history. Up 25% since President Trumps Election (up $5.3 Trillion)
> 17. China agreed to American import of beef.
> 18. $89 Billion saved in regulation rollbacks.  ✔️
> 19. Rollback of A Regulation to boost COAL MINING.
> 20. MOAB for ISIS
> 21. TRAVEL BAN reinstated.
> 22. Executive order for RELIGIOUS  ✝️ FREEDOM.
> 23. Jump started NASA
> 24. $600 million cut from UN peacekeeping budget.
> 25. Targeting of MS13 gangs
> 26. Deporting violent illegal immigrants.
> 27. Signed 41 bills to date
> 28. Created a commission on child trafficking
> 29. Created a commission on VOTER FRAUD ✅ ⚖️
> 30. Created a commission for OPIOD ADDICTION.
> 31. Giving power to states to drug test unemployment recipients.
> 32. Unemployment lowest since may 2007.
> 33. Pardoned Sheriff Arpaio
> 34. WOMEN In Entrepreneurship Act
> 35. Created an office or illegal immigrant crime victims.
> 36. Reversed Dodd-Frank
> 37. Repealed DOT ruling which would have taken power away from local governments for infrastructure planning
> 38. Order to stop crime against LAW ENFORCEMENT
> 39. End of DAPA program.
> 40. Stopped companies from moving out of America.   ❤️
> 41. Promoted businesses to create American Jobs.
> 42. Encouraged country to once again Buy American and hire American
> 43. Cutting regulations 2 for every one created.  ✂️
> 44. Review of all trade agreements to make sure they are America first.
> 45. Mandatory Birth Control mandate removed from ObamaCare.
> 46. Highest manufacturing surge in 3 years.
> 47. $78 Billion promised reinvestment from major businesses like Exxon, Bayer, Apple, SoftBank, Toyota...
> 48. Denied FBI a new building.
> 49. $700 Million saved with F-35 renegotiation.  ✈️
> 50. Saves $22 million by reducing white house payroll.
> 51. President Trump donates his salary (To National Park Service and Dept of Education so far)
> 52. Dept of treasury reports a $182 billion surplus for April 2017
> (2nd largest in history)
> 53. Negotiated the release of 6 US humanitarian workers held captive in egypt.
> 54. Gas prices lowest in more than 12 years.
> 55. Signed An Executive Order To Promote Energy Independence And Economic Growth
> 56. Has already accomplished more to stop government interference into people's lives than any President in the history of America.
> 57. President Trump has worked with Congress to pass more legislation in his first 100 days than any President.
> 58.  U.S. Debt has decreased by $103 billion (Obama increased the debt by $974 Billion in his first 6 months)
> 59. Tough Decisive Decisions on North Korea after Decades of Failure (Clinton gaven them $5 Billion to create Nukes & Obama did nothing to safeguard America)
> 60. Signed Memo to address China Laws, policies & actions related to innovation, intellectual property & Technology.
> 61. Signed the VA Choice & Quality Employment Act (8/13/2017)
> 62. Three (3) Major Hurricanes (Harvey, Irma & Maria) affecting multiple states with great cooperation between Governors, President Trump & FEMA.
> 63. Consumer Confidence is at a 16 year high & unemployment is at a 17 year low.
> 64. Called out ALL Hate Groups ( KKK,  ANTIFA,  White Supremists,  BLM) after Charlottesville.
> 65. Rewriting Environmental Rules - EPA
> 66. The DOJ to stop funding Sanctuary Cities.
> 67. Signed Executive Order to allow purchasing Healthcare across state lines .
> 68. No subsidies to be paid to the Insurance Companies for ObamaCare (ObamaFraud)
> 69. Winning against NFL kneelers by Demanding respect for the Anthem & American Flag
> 70. America First Energy Plan - boosting domestic Coal Technology by achieving energy independence from OPEC cartel.
> 71. 2018 Budget will be approved
> 72. DOW passes 23,000
> 73. Continues to prove that the  MSM is #Fakenews
> 74. Tax Reform Initiative   will be the biggest tax break in history for the Middle Class
> 75. #UraniumOne Investigation  ⚖️ under way.
> President Trump & VP Pence for 2020   Copy & Share!u



Spot on. Trump will go down as a transformative President, possibly yet one of the greats.  'Draining the swamp' and getting things done. Of course the Washington establishment are up in arms, they're being shown up!


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## Junior

I despise Trump, he is an ugly, ugly person inside and out.  Huge ego and a narcissist.  The man is an absolute disgrace and I cannot wait for him to be ousted.  He has fuelled a new wave of hate and bigotry in the US and has divided the population, any claim of what he has 'achieved' needs to be properly fact-checked, as you can't believe anything the guy says.  He uses Twitter to taunt and criticise others.....he has the top job on the planet and he uses social media to bully people.  ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME??  How anyone can defend that as being in any way acceptable is beyond me.


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## basilio

Junior said:


> *I despise Trump, he is an ugly, ugly person inside and out.  Huge ego and a narcissist.  The man is an absolute disgrace and I cannot wait for him to be ousted.  He has fuelled a new wave of hate and bigotry in the US and has divided the population, any claim of what he has 'achieved' needs to be properly fact-checked, as you can't believe anything the guy says.
> 
> He uses Twitter to taunt and criticise others.....he has the top job on the planet and he uses social media to bully people.  ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME??  How anyone can defend that as being in any way acceptable is beyond me*.




He can be defended. He is being defended. He will be defended.

On ASF we have a significant number of people who, despite whatever he has done, believe he is better than President Obama or Hilary Clinton.

There are millions of white supremicists in the US who see him as a 21st Century hero.

There are millions of Muslim haters who applaud his anti Muslim rhetoric and legislation.

So perhaps the  question to pose is your final comment


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## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> They could have had Bernie Sanders too. I think he would have won and would have done a good job.




Bernie sold out soon after he lost. In the end he was nothing but talk and would have continued the BS of the US establishment.
Yes trump is a piece of crap. But he will transform politics.

 Identity politics of the left is what brought the hatred in America.


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## moXJO

basilio said:


> He can be defended. He is being defended. He will be defended.
> 
> On ASF we have a significant number of people who, despite whatever he has done, believe he is better than President Obama or Hilary Clinton.
> 
> There are millions of white supremicists in the US who see him as a 21st Century hero.
> 
> There are millions of Muslim haters who applaud his anti Muslim rhetoric and legislation.
> 
> So perhaps the  question to pose is your final comment



Leftist identity politics in play. Do his supporters eat babies as well? 
This kind of crap is why Trump got into power.


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## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Leftist identity politics in play. Do his supporters eat babies as well?
> This kind of crap is why Trump got into power.




Actually he got into power because of an electoral system that is slanted against the Democrats, because he lost the popular vote.


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## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Actually he got into power because of an electoral system that is slanted against the Democrats, because he lost the popular vote.



Umm no.
Its so all states get a say.


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## basilio

This is not the first time a US politician has been blatently dishonest, reckless and downright dangerous. Republician Senator Jeff Flake is highlighting the occasion that finally pricked the hate bubble around Senator McCarthy.


* Enough - it's time to stand up to Trump *

*Jeff Flake, US Senator*
494 reading now

*Washington:* As I contemplate the Trump presidency, I cannot help but think of Joseph Welch.
_
On June 9, 1954, during the Army-McCarthy hearings, Welch, who was the chief counsel for the Army, famously asked the committee chairman if he might speak on a point of personal privilege.

What he said that day was so profound that it has become enshrined as a pivotal moment in defence of American values against those who would lay waste to them. Welch was the son of a small prairie town in northwest Iowa, and the plaintive quality of his flat Midwestern accent is burned into American history. After asking Senator Joseph McCarthy for his attention and telling him to listen with both ears, Welch spoke:

*"Until this moment, senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty, or your recklessness."
And then, in words that today echo from his time to ours, Welch delivered the coup de grace: "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"*

The moral power of Welch's words ended McCarthy's rampage on American values, and effectively his career as well.


After Welch said his piece, the hearing room erupted in applause, those in attendance seemingly shocked by such bracing moral clarity in the face of a moral vandal. Someone had finally spoken up and said: Enough.
  
By doing so, Welch reawakened the conscience of the country. The moment was a shock to the system, a powerful dose of cure for an American democracy that was questioning its values during a time of global tumult and threat. We had temporarily forgotten who we were supposed to be.

We face just such a time now. We have again forgotten who we are supposed to be.

There is a sickness in our system - and it is contagious.

How many more disgraceful public feuds with Gold Star families [families who have lost a loved on in defence of the US] can we witness in silence before we ourselves are disgraced?

How many more times will we see moral ambiguity in the face of shocking bigotry and shrug it off?

How many more childish insults do we need to see hurled at a hostile foreign power before we acknowledge the senseless danger of it?

How much more damage to our democracy and to the institutions of American liberty do we need to witness in silence before we count ourselves as complicit in that damage?

Nine months of this administration is enough for us to stop pretending that this is somehow normal, and that we are on the verge of some sort of pivot to governing, to stability. Nine months is more than enough for us to say, loudly and clearly: Enough.

*The outcome of this is in our hands. We can no longer remain silent, merely observing this train wreck, passively, as if waiting for someone else to do something. The longer we wait, the greater the damage, the harsher the judgment of history.
*
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/world/enough--its-time-to-stand-up-to-trump-20171025-gz8cna.html_


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## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Actually he got into power because of an electoral system that is slanted against the Democrats, because he lost the popular vote.




Pretty much. The Republicans brought Trump on themselves. They have spent the last few decades peddling apocalyptic paranoia to the rubes through outlets like Fox News, while conservative elites read the WSJ. There was no gutter that was too low for them to crawl into (witness allowing the Obama foreign Muslim lie to perpetuate for years) and now they have themselves a President in that mould.


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## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Leftist identity politics in play. Do his supporters eat babies as well?
> This kind of crap is why Trump got into power.



Exactly so.

Obama, though smoother, more elegant, more eloquent,  more media savvy etc etc etc,  is no less of a narcissist, no less, of an egotist, full no less hate with constant race baiting and disingenuous mockery... no less if a disgraceful villain than Trump. 

In many respects he is more so, more sinister,  more dangerous, more toxic to the interests of the common folk than any President I can think of.

The worst thing is that folks like junior and bas have no idea they are being played,  pawns in a very ####ing sinister agenda.... mind you I have a very good idea who will be among the first in line for brown shirts if we continue to sleepwalk into the leftist Dystopian vision.


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## Junior

wayneL said:


> Exactly so.
> 
> Obama, though smoother, more elegant, more eloquent,  more media savvy etc etc etc,  is no less of a narcissist, no less, of an egotist, full no less hate with constant race baiting and disingenuous mockery... no less if a disgraceful villain than Trump.
> 
> In many respects he is more so, more sinister,  more dangerous, more toxic to the interests of the common folk than any President I can think of.
> 
> The worst thing is that folks like junior and bas have no idea they are being played,  pawns in a very ####ing sinister agenda.... mind you I have a very good idea who will be among the first in line for brown shirts if we continue to sleepwalk into the leftist Dystopian vision.




Nah, I'm good.  I have a happy, healthy & fulfilling life.  

I don't feel as though I'm 'being played'.  

I have freedom and I have choice.

How about yourself?  It sounds as though you might be struggling with all these evil Lefties imposing their agenda upon the masses.


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## wayneL

Junior said:


> Nah, I'm good.  I have a happy, healthy & fulfilling life.
> 
> I don't feel as though I'm 'being played'.
> 
> I have freedom and I have choice.
> 
> How about yourself?  It sounds as though you might be struggling with all these evil Lefties imposing their agenda upon the masses.



I know you don't feel like you are being played, that's the problem. Look a totalitarian regimes, some were by violent revolution,  but many were voted in by deceived plebeians

Read Ben Franklin Komrade.


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## IFocus

Wayne you need to check your meds.

Obama had a few failings (far from perfect like us) drone extrajudicial killings being the big one.

But Trump.......nothing I mean nothing is going to stop the mess he is / going to create.

And the republicans will back him all the way to hell so they can get the supreme court justices they want in that is the big game the rest is just noise.


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## wayneL

You been had IFocus


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## Tink

Agree with you, Wayne.

Whether we are talking about Australia or the USA, Junior and Basilio need to look in their own backyard, Melbourne.

The political terrorists that go back and forth destroying our state with no accountability.

This is my view.


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## wayneL

Tink said:


> Agree with you, Wayne.
> 
> Whether we are talking about Australia or the USA, Junior and Basilio need to look in their own backyard, Melbourne.
> 
> The political terrorists that go back and forth destroying our state with no accountability.
> 
> This is my view.



And to what end Tink? What kind of society are they trying transmogrify us into?

Now there is a truly terrifying thought


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## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Wayne you need to check your meds.
> 
> Obama had a few failings (far from perfect like us) drone extrajudicial killings being the big one.
> 
> But Trump.......nothing I mean nothing is going to stop the mess he is / going to create.
> 
> And the republicans will back him all the way to hell so they can get the supreme court justices they want in that is the big game the rest is just noise.



Obama was a failure full stop.

Trump at least has the economy optimistic. 

Jobs and debt will be interesting to see in the long run.

Personally I think its the end of western rule. China and Russia have been quietly planning for years on ousting the US from top dog position.


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## Junior

Tink said:


> Agree with you, Wayne.
> 
> Whether we are talking about Australia or the USA, Junior and Basilio need to look in their own backyard, Melbourne.
> 
> The political terrorists that go back and forth destroying our state with no accountability.
> 
> This is my view.




Any tangible examples?  Something that actually has an impact on the way we live in Melbourne?  

I'd argue that it's at least as great a place to be compared to say, 10 or 20 years ago.  Easy to find a job, place to live (although f*cking expensive - a by-product of low IRs), plenty to do and see, great food & coffee culture, perhaps not as safe as it used to be but not so unsafe as to have any impact on daily life.


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## IFocus

Junior said:


> Any tangible examples?  Something that actually has an impact on the way we live in Melbourne?
> 
> I'd argue that it's at least as great a place to be compared to say, 10 or 20 years ago.  Easy to find a job, place to live (although f*cking expensive - a by-product of low IRs), plenty to do and see, great food & coffee culture, perhaps not as safe as it used to be but not so unsafe as to have any impact on daily life.



Agree Vico and Melbourne are amazing as are the people unlike here in WA, tail gating selfish bogans (driving is unbelievable) and what a lovely left wing communist multi cultural city Melbourne is.


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## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Obama was a failure full stop.
> 
> Trump at least has the economy optimistic.
> 
> Jobs and debt will be interesting to see in the long run.
> 
> Personally I think its the end of western rule. China and Russia have been quietly planning for years on ousting the US from top dog position.




How is Trump paying for the tax cuts? Trickle down / up to the top 1% economics?

You are right about the end of civilization the extreme divisive evil politics of the alt right / extremist lunatics wanting a trade war with China with Trumps dog whistles will bring on that along with the US civil war II

You guys are moaning the end and you are right  but what you are missing is the fact that pay rates, working conditions, civil rights, freedom of speech, freedom to protest, health care etc (I could go on) all the things that bind humanity in the west together were fought for by unions and left wing organisations.

The big money has pretty much wiped out or weakened all those organisations now in the US you now have the top 1%  of owning more that 35% of the total wealth...........what?

Top 20% owning 80% .......what?

You know how that's going to be fixed......by giving tax cuts to the top end........you are right the end is nigh and it happening right here in Oz right now.

You really think Trump is going to stick up for people like us the man cannot even make a fu(king condolence phone call.


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## Junior

IFocus said:


> what a lovely left wing communist multi cultural city Melbourne is.




Pure garbage.

Do you have any understanding of what a communist society looks like?


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## moXJO

Junior said:


> Pure garbage.
> 
> Do you have any understanding of what a communist society looks like?



I think he was being sarcastic.


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## Junior

Apologies to IFocus.


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## moXJO

IFocus said:


> How is Trump paying for the tax cuts? Trickle down / up to the top 1% economics?
> 
> You are right about the end of civilization the extreme divisive evil politics of the alt right / extremist lunatics wanting a trade war with China with Trumps dog whistles will bring on that along with the US civil war II
> 
> You guys are moaning the end and you are right  but what you are missing is the fact that pay rates, working conditions, civil rights, freedom of speech, freedom to protest, health care etc (I could go on) all the things that bind humanity in the west together were fought for by unions and left wing organisations.
> 
> The big money has pretty much wiped out or weakened all those organisations now in the US you now have the top 1%  of owning more that 35% of the total wealth...........what?
> 
> Top 20% owning 80% .......what?
> 
> You know how that's going to be fixed......by giving tax cuts to the top end........you are right the end is nigh and it happening right here in Oz right now.
> 
> You really think Trump is going to stick up for people like us the man cannot even make a fu(king condolence phone call.



Pretty sure its the lefties throwing the greatest tantrum in history against trump. Have you seen the media, Broadway shows,  movies,  divorces,  campus riots and all the rest. It ain't coming from the right.
You can bluster bs, but trump kick started the economy and manufacturing looks promising.
He is still a block of sht but I'd rather argue with what result he manages to deliver. Rather then how he hurts your SJW feelings.
Unions are rorting members these days. Perhaps in days past when everyone in leadership  wasn't a lawyer.


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## wayneL

Junior said:


> Pure garbage.
> 
> Do you have any understanding of what a communist society looks like?



If not,  all we have to do is hang around a bit.... unless leftist plebeians cone to their senses.


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## wayneL

IFocus said:


> You guys are moaning the end and you are right  but what you are missing is the fact that pay rates, working conditions, civil rights, freedom of speech, freedom to protest, health care etc (I could go on) all the things that bind humanity in the west together were fought for by unions and left wing organisations.



You are right,  the left has done *some* great things which have made society better.  All the more of a shame that the left are so intent on dismantling our whole culture, and thusly responsible for the rise of the extreme right.

Its happening now bro.


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## PZ99

wayneL said:


> You are right,  the left has done *some* great things which have made society better.  All the more of a shame that the left are so intent on dismantling our whole culture, and thusly responsible for the rise of the extreme right.
> 
> Its happening now bro.



If you fear the extreme right then why not campaign against the extreme right ?

Sounds a lot more productive than dissing the other political positions.


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## wayneL

PZ99 said:


> If you fear the extreme right then why not campaign against the extreme right ?
> 
> Sounds a lot more productive than dissing the other political positions.



I fear both PZ. However from my point of view it is the extreme left which is far more dangerous at this point in time. It is this toxicity that must be neutralised,  then we can deal with the others if necessary. 

I do feel that neutralising the absurd left will remove the raison d'etre of the neo nazi right... job done on both counts


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## IFocus

moXJO said:


> I think he was being sarcastic.




Trying to be funny actually........epic fail I am afraid


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## IFocus

wayneL said:


> I fear both PZ. However from my point of view it is the extreme left which is far more dangerous at this point in time. It is this toxicity that must be neutralised,  then we can deal with the others if necessary.
> 
> I do feel that neutralising the absurd left will remove the raison d'etre of the neo nazi right... job done on both counts




There was a time when the so called extreme left existed long ago in fact a very long time ago before our life times they were radicals, armed and dangerous working in cells to dismantle the middle ground, they no longer exist any where but this is what the extreme right look like today and do exist fertile ground for the rise of another Hitler should the extremes come together.


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## moXJO

IFocus said:


> There was a time when the so called extreme left existed long ago in fact a very long time ago before our life times they were radicals, armed and dangerous working in cells to dismantle the middle ground, they no longer exist any where but this is what the extreme right look like today and do exist fertile ground for the rise of another Hitler should the extremes come together.



Antifa .....


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## wayneL

IFocus said:


> There was a time when the so called extreme left existed long ago in fact a very long time ago before our life times they were radicals, armed and dangerous working in cells to dismantle the middle ground, they no longer exist any where but this is what the extreme right look like today and do exist fertile ground for the rise of another Hitler should the extremes come together.



The left,  via the Fabian Society,  habe eschewed the use of revolution in favour od " Gradualism" and I must say it had been working splendidly well for them... 

...except they have impatient at achieving the toxic dystopia they so desire and have been pushing the envelope, hence purulent movements such as antifa as Mo noted.

In fact,  it is the left that had initiated the violence,  the right late to the party,  only really surfacing in the last couple of years. Ergo, we have nobody to blame for the violent right,  other than the violent left.

Watch..


----------



## basilio

He is a special man our Trumpy.

Seems like every one of the women who has accused him of assault/groping whatever are liars. I guess that means that anyone else who pops their head up with any similar accusation is, by definition, also a liar. Clearly whatever HE says is  The Truth .

Of course the tape where he boasts of kisssing women at will and grabbing the by the pxussy " becasue when your famous you can do that " is what ? An empty boast ? Not applicable ? Never happened ?

I think a nice clear court case would help clear this up. And then a decent stretch in a cosy tent in Arizona.

_All the women who have accused President Donald Trump of sexual harassment are lying, the White House has said.


When posed the question by CBS about the 16 women who have accused the President - and whether the official position of the White House was that they were lying - Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said: “Yeah, we’ve been clear on that from the beginning and the president has spoken on it.”


Mr Trump addressed the accusations last week and dismissed them as “totally fake news...It’s fake, it’s made-up stuff. And it’s disgraceful what happens.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...te-house-sarah-huckabee-sanders-a8024136.html_


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> The left, via the Fabian Society, habe eschewed the use of revolution in favour od " Gradualism" and I must say it had been working splendidly well for them...




Personally I'm much more worried about the spiritual heart of the Liberal Party, aka the Institute for Public Affairs, the mob that believes that corporations should run the country, that consumers should have no rights, and that national interest be sacrificed at the altar of higher dividends and ROI.

At least the Fabians seem to believe that elected representatives should run the country, not hidden boardrooms.


----------



## basilio

_I've been reflecting a bit on the monstrous situation of 16 different women slandering The President with totally untrue accusations of sexual assault. Worse than just these completely false accusations is the possibility that other people can come forward with similar untruths. After all what is there to stop them?

I think The President needs to be Presidential about this grave insult to the The President.  Clearly if these women are lying they need to be bought to justice. I suggest they need to be :

1) Publicly identified to ensure we all know about these lying xluts.
2) Taken into protective custody.
3) Questioned until they make a full and complete retractions of their lies and public apology to The President and The United States

Given such a belated acknowledgment of their slandarous ways  The President could offer a reduced sentence of 5 years jail.  Of course if they refuse to acknowledge their lies they stand condemned of treason with 30 year plus sentence._

Thoughts ?


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Thoughts ?




Nah. The Yanks have just learned well from us Aussies. The tall poppy syndrome has spread.


----------



## basilio

Appropos to my previous posts I suggest The President should reinforce his moral position by asking every member of his Cabinet and The Republician Congress/Senate to echo his concern about the monstrous lies being told about him. 

Clearly if they can't do that there has to be concern that they may also believe such shocking lies. Again a monstrous and treasonable act...


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Antifa .....




Wow thanks MoXJO never heard of them disappointing that they are really not about change but nice to see they are about fighting evil (fascist and racists ) I'll sleep much better knowing they (the good guys) are out there.
They even have a Perth Facebook page not that I will be joining


----------



## wayneL

Ah yes, the name calling of conservatives, racists, fascists, all to justify the violence and vandalism. 

Then the shock when the real fascists come out to play.

You lot will deserve what comes. Wanna know how the f### Alternative for Deutchland got 18% of the vote?

Look in the mirror Komrades


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Wow thanks MoXJO never heard of them disappointing that they are really not about change but nice to see they are about fighting evil (fascist and racists ) I'll sleep much better knowing they (the good guys) are out there.
> They even have a Perth Facebook page not that I will be joining



Yeah, a couple trained with my son when I was teaching mma/boxing.
It was hard to distinguish which side the fascists were on.

Thats the problem. These ain't good guys if their goal is to block the right (through violence) from having a voice. Its not the skinheads they are after, its anyone on the right.
But let it ride and watch nationalism rise.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Yeah, a couple trained with my son when I was teaching mma/boxing.
> It was hard to distinguish which side the fascists were on.
> 
> Thats the problem. These ain't good guys if their goal is to block the right (through violence) from having a voice. Its not the skinheads they are after, its anyone on the right.
> But let it ride and watch nationalism rise.




Thanks for the comments Mo its a side of life I hadn't heard of.


----------



## IFocus

On blaming the left for the public rise of extreme right is a argument hard to agree with (could say straw man).

When you have leading public figures giving cover for such groups this leads to legitimacy in the US there is now is a long line on both sides of the divide condemning Trump in particular.  

Trump and his ilk have no care about longer term consequences and no honor to the democratic processes rather just a dog style win at all costs which has been the Republican style from Newt Gingrich days but even those harden partisans are socked at how far the hard right has gone.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> On blaming the left for the public rise of extreme right is a argument hard to agree with (could say straw man).
> 
> When you have leading public figures giving cover for such groups this leads to legitimacy in the US there is now is a long line on both sides of the divide condemning Trump in particular.
> 
> Trump and his ilk have no care about longer term consequences and no honor to the democratic processes rather just a dog style win at all costs which has been the Republican style from Newt Gingrich days but even those harden partans are socked at how far the hard right has gone.



It's very little to do work Trump at all actually. The extreme right is rising right across the western world.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> It's very little to do work Trump at all actually. The extreme right is rising right across the western world.




Four Corners tonight on Germany's new Facists.


----------



## Logique

Trump's Twitter account temporarily turned off.

That's the way to win the argument leftists.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> It's very little to do work Trump at all actually. The extreme right is rising right across the western world.




Very ably assisted by creative Russian troll factories creating a million false narratives which are picked up and amplified by Fox, Briebart and the Liar In Chief and swallowed by sheeple who can't think for themself.

Cheers!


----------



## basilio

Logique said:


> Trump's Twitter account temporarily turned off.
> 
> That's the way to win the argument leftists.



No thats the way to (temporily) silence a totally deranged xxxxwit who also happens to be the most powerful and dangerous man on earth.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Very ably assisted by creative Russian troll factories creating a million false narratives which are picked up and amplified by Fox, Briebart and the Liar In Chief and swallowed by sheeple who can't think for themself.
> 
> Cheers!



What happened to the Russian hackers? 
Instead its a bunch of Russians on twitter. Hardly the crime of the century.

Anyone who uses twitter generally cant think for themselves anyway.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> who can't think for themself.
> 
> Cheers!



hmmm, pot....


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> No thats the way to (temporily) silence a totally deranged xxxxwit who also happens to be the most powerful and dangerous man on earth.



10 months or so in office.... no people killed by Trump, only injuries caused by nazi antifa violence, US stock market booming, other deranged xxxxwits in Korea silenced by Trump.....


----------



## SirRumpole

I wonder why only Clinton's campaign was hacked, it seems.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...democrats-and-clinton-campaign-emails/9118834


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Anyone who uses twitter generally cant think for themselves anyway.




And that is the ingeniousness of the act, the Russians exploited this fact, it was brilliant. They were able to sway the results from a computer back in their home land.

Got to give it to them and Trump, they used social media as a vehicle to get what the wanted.


----------



## dutchie

Holy moly, the Russians sure are powerful. They influenced the USA to elect Trump, just using Twitter.
Time to get rid of all those armies, just open up a lot of twitter accounts.
(North Korea and China take note).

The fairies at the bottom of the garden love twitter too


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> And that is the ingeniousness of the act, the Russians exploited this fact, it was brilliant. They were able to sway the results from a computer back in their home land.
> 
> Got to give it to them and Trump, they used social media as a vehicle to get what the wanted.



No they didn't.
 Hillary was unelectable in the first place. She was the giant turd in the room, despite what the dems will tell you. They were also up to their neck in dirt. 
The Russian hack story is just to smokescreen their shortcomings. Still too delusional to admit they lost.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Hillary was unelectable in the first place.




More people voted for her than Trump.

I wouldn't call that unelectable.

The voting system was skewed against her in a number of ways.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> swallowed by sheeple who can't think for themself.
> 
> Cheers!




From a person who quotes exclusively from the Guardian and Cookes sham site, I find that comment laughable.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> More people voted for her than Trump.
> 
> I wouldn't call that unelectable.
> 
> The voting system was skewed against her in a number of ways.



Its based on state not just California. 
Otherwise you could say the same thing for Australia. Preference votes skew against liberals.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> From a person who quotes exclusively from the Guardian and Cookes sham site, I find that comment laughable.




From a person who can't/won't think and therefore can't actually read The Guardian that is particularly laughable.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> From a person who can't/won't think and therefore can't actually read The Guardian that is particularly laughable.



I find your childish trolling laughable.

You honestly believe that agendized piffle the repository of all knowledge?

Oh my!

To borrow a recent and apt malapropism,  it is  a suppository of marxist ideology and attendant misinformation, nothing more.

Sorry bas, I like to avoid the intellectual paddle pools of mainstream echo chambers and swim in the deep water, where real ideas anf intercourse inhabit.


----------



## basilio

Ah the deep waters of resfresing intellectual pursuits  Wayne.

These are the ones where you discover that Donald Trump is just a misunderstood genius whose light will soon create a  New World Order of flowering prosperity,  intellectual and scoial freedom unlike the dark days of President Obama.

And of course where one can divine that the entire body of current  climate science knowledge is intellectually bankrupt and that the world isn't warming (that much) and that it is all a UN/Maxist/Fabian plot to bankrupt the precious essences of our fossil fools industry. 

Dribble on Wayne. Your intellectual prentensions.... .........are just that.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Ah the deep waters of resfresing intellectual pursuits  Wayne.
> 
> These are the ones where you discover that Donald Trump is just a misunderstood genius whose light will soon create a  New World Order of flowering prosperity,  intellectual and scoial freedom unlike the dark days of President Obama.
> 
> And of course where one can divine that the entire body of current  climate science knowledge is intellectually bankrupt and that the world isn't warming (that much) and that it is all a UN/Maxist/Fabian plot to bankrupt the precious essences of our fossil fools industry.
> 
> Dribble on Wayne. Your intellectual prentensions.... .........are just that.



Well, apart from a glaring inaccuracy and the purulent strawman argument, pretty close to the actual truth, Komrade.


----------



## basilio

The world of the Liar in Chief.

How much is Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross actually worth ? He said he was worth $2.9B. However Forbes reckons he has lied and he only "worth" $700m.  But it gets better.

 
*Commerce secretary Wilbur Ross lied about wealth by $2bn, Forbes reports *
Magazine says it removed him from 2016 rich list after financial disclosures showed less than $700m in assets




US commerce secretary Wilbur Ross in London. Photograph: Andy Rain/EPA

*Shares*
53

Associated Press

Wednesday 8 November 2017 01.26 GMT   Last modified on Wednesday 8 November 2017 01.58 GMT

Forbes reported Tuesday that the US commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, exaggerated his net worth by $2bn, which the magazine said it discovered after he protested being removed from its 2016 list of the 400 richest people in the US.

Forbes cited years of internal reporting notes and conversations with Ross, an investor who has been described as “the king of bankruptcy” for buying beaten-down companies with the potential to deliver profits.






* Trump commerce secretary's business links with Putin family laid out in leaked files *
Read more
The magazine, which estimated Ross to be worth $2.9bn in its 2016 list, said it decided to remove Ross from the list after financial disclosure forms filed after his cabinet nomination showed less than $700m in assets.
*

Forbes says Ross protested, claiming that he had transferred more than $2bn to family trusts between the 2016 election and Donald Trump’s inauguration. But when that claim raised ethics and tax questions, the Department of Commerce issued a statement saying there had been no such transfer.


Forbes said it was now “confident that the money never existed. It seems clear that Ross lied to us.”*

The commerce department did not respond to requests for comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/07/wilbur-ross-forbes-rich-list-exaggerated-wealth


----------



## Tink

National Day for the Victims of Communism

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/11/07/national-day-victims-communism


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> More people voted for her than Trump.
> 
> I wouldn't call that unelectable.
> 
> The voting system was skewed against her in a number of ways.




More people didn't vote for either of them.

DNC's former chairwoman (and former CNN host? who slipped Clinton questions for a debate with Sanders) recently wrote that the Clinton campaign took over the DNC a year before the 2016 campaign. 

It was supposed to be neutral, not favouring any candidate until the people decide who they want etc. etc. But Clinton promised to raise money for the DNC, to help them out of their financial troubles - I guess people just don't donate to corrupt no-good parties seeing what Obama did for them.

Anyway, the promise was to raise money so that the DNC can stay solvent with the extra cash going down to the state and local level to help other Democrats etc. etc. All at a cheap price of having Clinton's people making big important decisions for the DNC. 

Those big and important DNC/Clinton people then work their magic by raising money "for the DNC" but channel it back up again into the Clinton campaign.

So not only was Sanders being screwed, other Democratic politicians were too.

The rules were rigged, voters suppressed... their superdelegates was all in Clinton's pockets long before "the people" decides.

So how were the rules rigged against Clinton? 

Maybe she wasn't able to rig and buy off the entire political system.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> National Day for the Victims of Communism
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/11/07/national-day-victims-communism




China, Vietnam... those aren't Communist states abusing friends, neighbours and citizens?

Trump and the great corporate Americans seem to get on with them pretty well during the recent journey to the East. 

And errr... do you realise that the Bolshevik (lead, claim credits and power) the overthrew of an imperial, dictatorial dynasty ruling over them with an iron fist, right? They didn't overthrew a democratically elected president of the people - like Trump, say. 

I don't know enough about the Bolshevik, Soviets and Russian revolution... and of course not defending their own imperial adventures or Stalin's killing and torture of his own people. But the truth is a lot more complicated than Communism/Soviet bad, Western value [of the non Communist kind] is all good.

Remember that Czarist Russia was a decrepit has-been imperial power before the 1917 revolution. It lost a war to the sick men of Japan. It was a majority agricultural economy with the knowledge and liberty the ruling dictators and their mandarins permit. i.e. it was a crap hole.

On top of that, WW2 killed some 20 million of its people. Destroyed most of its cities.

To come out of that being a country that put the first man in space, challenge the power and influence of the mighty US of A - a country that was practically unscathed at home, that managed to bring back from Europe migrants, refugees, tonnes and tonnes of Nazi gold and practically all the capital of Europe the Nazi didn't destroy (and the Soviets didn't get to).

Failure is probably oversimplifying the situation.

-------------

As to the Soviets being nasty evil doers... During those worst decades, as that link put it... Stalin and his Soviets were allies with the Alliance. They fought against the Nazi. After WWII, they were still friends with the US. President Truman have said that Stalin is a fine bloke and they don't care of the butchery Stalin ordered as long as they're friends.

The Soviets got unfriended not for the killing and undemocratic crap. But because they put that Iron Curtain up over half of Europe - taking it as theirs. 

That and imagine the message it sends to other peasants around the world being ruled by kings, emperors or kind colonial masters. 

A peasant military could rise up, take the capitalist pigs wealth... thrive and be independent?

China's Qing was gone a decade or two before WWII ended. But Mao and his peasants was whooping the capitalist-backed Chiang in Southern China. 

In a tiny country like Vietnam, peasants dared rise up to challenge the power and liberty French colonialism? 

Anyway... Trump will one day be seen as a good president with schools and libraries named after him. Holy fark. talk about the twittering of history.


----------



## basilio

One of the bombshell news articles in the lead up to President Liars election was the release of a investigation by a former MI6 spy into the connections between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. There is an exceptional story in the Guardian which examines the history of the investigator and the currency of his findings.

* Christopher Steele believes his dossier on Trump-Russia is 70-90% accurate *
The respected ex-MI6 officer told Guardian journalist and author Luke Harding that his FBI contacts greeted his intelligence report with ‘shock and horror’


The Long Read: how Trump walked into Putin’s web



Christopher Steele is quoted in Luke Harding’s book Collusion as saying: ‘I’ve been dealing with this country for thirty years. Why would I invent this stuff?’ Photograph: Victoria Jones/PA

*Shares*
4148

Julian Borger in Washington

Wednesday 15 November 2017 16.52 GMT   First published on Wednesday 15 November 2017 16.32 GMT

Christopher Steele, the former British intelligence officer who compiled an explosive dossier of allegations of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin, believes it to 70% to 90% accurate, according to a new book on the covert Russian intervention in the 2016 US election.

The book, Collusion: How Russia Helped Donald Trump Win, by Guardian journalist Luke Harding, quotes Steele as telling friends that he believes his reports – based on sources cultivated over three decades of intelligence work – will be vindicated as the US special counsel investigation digs deeper into contacts between Trump, his associates and Moscow.

“I’ve been dealing with this country for thirty years. Why would I invent this stuff?” Steele is quoted as saying.

O*ne of the reasons his dossier was taken seriously in Washington in 2016 was Steele’s reputation in the US for producing reliable reports on Russia, according to Harding’s book. 


Between 2014 and 2016, he authored more than a hundred reports on Russia and Ukraine, which were commissioned by private clients but shared widely within the state department and passed across the desks of the secretary of state, John Kerry, and the assistant secretary Victoria Nuland, who led the US response to the annexation of Crimea and the covert invasion of eastern Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/christopher-steele-trump-russia-dossier-accurate*


----------



## moXJO

*The Trump Dossier Is Fake -- And Here Are The Reasons Why*

*https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulro...ier-is-false-news-and-heres-why/#6a804b506867*

Trump Dossier is unverifiable muckraking.

The Orbis report makes as if it knows all the ins-and-outs and comings-and-goings within Putin’s impenetrable Kremlin. It reports information from anonymous “trusted compatriots,” “knowledgeable sources,” “former intelligence officers,” and “ministry of foreign affairs officials.”  The report gives a fly-on-the-wall account of just about every conceivable event associated with Donald Trump’s Russian connections. It claims to know more than is knowable as it recounts sordid tales of prostitutes, “golden showers,” bribes, squabbles in Putin’s inner circle, and who controls the dossiers of _kompromat_(compromising information).

There are two possible explanations for the fly-on-the-wall claims of the Orbis report: Either its author (who is not Mr. Steele) decided to write fiction, or collected enough gossip to fill a 30-page report, or a combination of the two. The author of the Orbis report has one more advantage: He knew that what he was writing was unverifiable. He advertises himself as the only Kremlin outsider with enough “reliable” contacts to explain what is really going within Putin’s office.

Unless new evidence has come up its all pi$$ in the wind.


----------



## basilio

MoXjo I appreciate you don't have sympathies for Hilarary Clinton or the Democrats. Nonetheless using a puff piece from Forbes business magazine *written in Jan 2017 the day after Christopher Steele was identified as the author* *of the report *to discredit it is just plain wrong.

The indisputable fact is that Christopher Steele was commissioned to research Donald Trumps activities in Russia.  He pulled together a number of observations from many people in and around the Kremlin.  The accuracy of the observations can be questioned and as every intelligence operative would attest *you can't believe or be sure of everything you are told*. Steele said he had confidence in 70-90% of the observations made in his report.

Steeles history as a MI5 operative and later work as a private investigator have given him total credibility in the eyes of the FBI and US Secret Service. In their view he is a professional and his work needs to be taken and checked seriously.  During 2017 there were a number of stories which explored the report. The best one I could find was written by *John Sipher a former member of the CIA's senior intelligence service.
*
His analysis of the Orbis report is worth reading if only to undersatnd how intelligence services analyse and evaluate information.


*The Steele Report, Revisited*
*How much of the infamous document ended up being corroborated elsewhere? A whole lot.*
By John Sipher







U.S. President Donald Trump meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin during their bilateral meeting at the G-20 summit in Hamburg, Germany, on July 7.
Carlos Barria/Reuters

_This piece was _*originally published*_ on_ _*Just Security*__._

Recent revelations of Trump campaign connections to Russia have revived interest in the Steele dossier. The dossier is composed of a batch of short reports produced between June and December 2016 by Orbis Business Intelligence, a London-based firm specializing in commercial intelligence for government and private-sector clients. The collection of Orbis reports caused an uproar when it was published online by _BuzzFeed_ just 10 days before Donald Trump’s inauguration.

Taken together, the series of reports painted a picture of active collusion between the Kremlin and key Trump campaign officials based on years of Russian intelligence work against Trump and some of his associates. This seemed to complement general statements from U.S. intelligence officials about Russia’s active efforts to undermine the 2016 election. The greatest attention was paid to the first report, which conveyed salacious claims about Trump consorting with prostitutes in Moscow in 2013. Trump himself publicly refuted the story, while Trump associates denied reported details about their engagement with Russian officials. A lot of ink and pixels were also spent on the question whether it was appropriate for the media to publish the dossier.

Almost immediately after the dossier was leaked, media outlets and commentators pointed out that the material was unproven. News editors affixed the terms “unverified” and “unsubstantiated” to all discussion of the issue. Political supporters of President Trump simply tagged it as “fake news.” Riding that wave, legendary _Washington Post_ reporter Bob Woodward characterized the report as “garbage.”

For professional investigators, however, the dossier is by no means a useless document. Although the reports were produced episodically—almost erratically—over a five-month period, they present a coherent narrative of collusion between the Kremlin and the Trump campaign. As a result, they offer an overarching framework for what might have happened based on information from individuals on the Russian side who claimed to have insight into Moscow’s goals and operational tactics. Until we have another more credible narrative, we should do all we can to examine closely and confirm or dispute the reports.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...eele_dossier_has_since_been_corroborated.html

Many of my former CIA colleagues have taken the Orbis reports seriously since they were first published. This is not because they are not fond of Trump (and many admittedly are not) but because they understand the potential plausibility of the reports’ overall narrative based on their experienced understanding of both Russian methods and the nature of raw intelligence reporting. Immediately following the _BuzzFeed_ leak, one of my closest former CIA colleagues told me that he recognized the reports as the obvious product of a former British Secret Intelligence Service officer, since the format, structure, and language mirrored what he had seen over a career of reading SIS reports provided to CIA in liaison channels. He and others withheld judgment about the veracity of the reports, but for the reasons I outline further below they did not reject them out of hand. In fact, they were more inclined for professional reasons to put them in the *“*trust but verify*”* category.


----------



## moXJO

Bas there is no proof...
Its just gossip and it's being used to smear Trump.
You can post all the articles from so called experts with an agenda, but it ain't going to hold up without proof. Orbis could have easily been fed whatever bull****  Russia wanted. 

Just to make it clear,  this was a dirt file.

I think Trump is an idiot. But I  won't defend smear campaigns by butt hurt republican and democrats. Proof then kick him out. But do not turn fiction into truths, which seems to be the way the media is trending.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Bas there is no proof...
> Its just gossip and it's being used to smear Trump.
> You can post all the articles from so called experts with an agenda, but it ain't going to hold up without proof. Orbis could have easily been fed whatever bull****  Russia wanted.
> 
> Just to make it clear,  this was a dirt file.
> 
> I think Trump is an idiot. But I  won't defend smear campaigns by butt hurt republican and democrats. Proof then kick him out. But do not turn fiction into truths, which seems to be the way the media is trending.




MoXjo this doesn't make sense... at all.   If you have read the full text from John Siphers article you'll see that the analysis of Russian intervention in US politics is being proven.  As the investigations into the connections between Trumps political supporters and Moscow become clearer, yes, there will be pressure on Donald Trump.
*
The files have never been taken as gospel. The CIA and FBI just believed that Christopher Steele was very competant and operated in good faith. That meant his claims needed to be taken and investigated seriously - not just summarily dismissed as fake news.*
_*
From the John Sipher story*_
*"He and others withheld judgment about the veracity of the reports, but for the reasons I outline further below they did not reject them out of hand. In fact, they were more inclined for professional reasons to put them in the “trust but verify” category."*


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Bas there is no proof...
> Its just gossip and it's being used to smear Trump.
> You can post all the articles from so called experts with an agenda, but it ain't going to hold up without proof. Orbis could have easily been fed whatever bull****  Russia wanted.
> 
> Just to make it clear,  this was a dirt file.
> 
> I think Trump is an idiot. But I  won't defend smear campaigns by butt hurt republican and democrats. Proof then kick him out. But do not turn fiction into truths, which seems to be the way the media is trending.




Mo Trump and or his election team colluded with the Russians no ifs or buts just a matter of to what degree

Trump will not be kicked out Repubs get to elect another more supreme court justices....that's the long game.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Mo Trump and or his election team colluded with the Russians no ifs or buts just a matter of to what degree
> 
> Trump will not be kicked out Repubs get to elect another more supreme court justices....that's the long game.



Who? Papadopoulos?  A proven liar.
Lets see what comes out of that because there ain't much so far.

As for the hack they don't have proof the Russians did it. They have malware and logs that point to Russian methods. But the most they can do is suspect it was the Russians. 
Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear why didn't they just name them "russian vodka drinking government bear". 

Crowdstrike caught the hackers in the act and still could only make best educated guess as to who it was.
Yeah it was highly probable it was the Russians. But it could have been China,  North Korea, CIA.
Anyone can look like anyone. It's all right their in the CIA document dump on wikileaks.

So I stand by what I said. There ain't much proof.


----------



## SirRumpole

A man of integrity in the US military command.

I hope that there are more like him.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...uld-resist-illegal-trump-strike-order/9166326


----------



## basilio

In the upheaval over the public figures who have been accused of  sexual harrassment/assault lets not forget *"Don the Groper-in-Chief".*
At this stage there are *20 women *who have publicly stated Donald Trump assaulted the.  Different times, different places, over many years. 
20 is almost a full Aussie Rules team. A good  round number.
The Gropher-in-Chief continues to insist that all of these women are lying and that he "never dun nutthin". 
Amazing isn't it ?

*The Trump allegations*
A list of the sexual misconduct accusations made against Donald Trump. He has denied the allegations

by Lucia Graves and Sam Morris

Last updated yesterday





A growing list of powerful men have faced serious consequences for sexual misconduct allegations but the most powerful one of all has faced none. Instead Donald Trump's official position, as his spokeswoman Sarah Sanders recently clarified in a White House press briefing, is that the 20 women accusing him of assault and harassment are lying. Trump has also suggested some were not attractive enough for him to want to sexually assault. As the conversation around sexual conduct continues to evolve, and new abusers are revealed, here are the cases against the president.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations-full-list


----------



## basilio

Michale Flynn has rolled and is co-operating with the Mueller FBI team..

*Michael Flynn pleads guilty to lying to FBI as Trump-Russia inquiry takes critical step *

Flynn ready to testify about contact between Trump campaign and Russians

‘I recognize that my actions were wrong … I am working to set things right’



Michael Flynn arrives at court in Washington on Friday. Photograph: Jonathan Ernst/Reuters

*Shares*
5235

Tom McCarthy in New York
 
Friday 1 December 2017 16.40 GMT   First published on Friday 1 December 2017 14.27 GMT

In a startling breakthrough for prosecutors investigating potential collusion between Russia and the Donald Trump presidential campaign, former national security adviser Michael Flynn announced on Friday that he was cooperating with prosecutors and ready to testify about Russian contacts.

After months of silence and invisibility, Flynn walked into a federal courthouse in Washington DC on Friday morning and pleaded guilty to one count of lying to the FBI. The plea was part of a larger deal with special counsel Robert Mueller’s team, and strikes at the heart of the Trump White House.

The US president was uncharacteristically mute as the spectacle played out. The White House canceled a planned photoshoot in the Oval Office with the prime minister of Libya.





* Frame by frame: how the Michael Flynn-Russia saga unfolded – in pictures *
View gallery
Flynn admitted that he lied in interviews with FBI agents shortly after the inauguration about conversations he had held with then-Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak concerning US sanctions on Russia and other matters.

Flynn further described a chain of communication within Trump’s presidential transition team in which he received direction in December 2016 from a “very senior transition official” – unnamed in court documents – and consulted “senior members” of the team on what to say to Kislyak.

Because Trump was not in power at the time, that plotting could expose those involved to charges of working with foreign governments to undermine US policy. But the extent of Flynn’s potential testimony in the Russia matter was unknown and could carry other legal hazards for the White House.

Flynn acknowledged wrongdoing for the first time in a statement on Friday.

0:38
'Lock him up!' shout protesters after Michael Flynn pleads guilty to lying to FBI – video
“It has been extraordinarily painful to endure these many months of false accusations of treason,” Flynn said. “But I recognize that the actions I acknowledged in court today were wrong, and, through my faith in God, I am working to set things right.”

He added: “My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the special counsel’s office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...viser-michael-flynn-charged-with-lying-to-fbi


----------



## basilio

The Liar-in Chief.  Chronic and pathalogical. The detail in this story is jaw dropping.  I look forward to seeing Donal Trump sue Susan Mulcahy for defamation...

* A gossip columnist's guide to outwitting Trump, 'a narcissist beyond description' *
The former New York Post columnist Susan Mulcahy has been dealing with Trump’s lies for decades. What is her advice to the media on handling him?




Donald Trump: ‘The way he lied I had never experienced,’ says Susan Mulcahy. Photograph: New York Post Archives/The New York Post via Getty Images

Lucia Graves in Washington

Friday 1 December 2017 12.00 GMT   Last modified on Friday 1 December 2017 19.58 GMT

When Donald Trump became a presidential candidate, Susan Mulcahy got a call from a former colleague at New York Newsday. “You’d better stock up on valium,” the ex-colleague said.

“It’s because I hated him so much,” said Mulcahy, the veteran gossip columnist who covered Trump for years at the New York Post, describing the call. “I would go ballistic if his name was mentioned in the office.”

Trump’s reputation as a liar now precedes him, but this week it reached new heights. In addition to reports that he regularly brags about winning the votes of a majority of American women – he did not – *other accounts say that he has begun questioning the authenticity of the Access Hollywood tape in which he boasted about grabbing women’s genitals.*

*It’s an over-the-top falsehood (the hosts of Access Hollywood have reiterated that the tape is authentic) but to Mulcahy, it is just par for the course with Trump. “Most people have an alibi or a backup plan; Trump doesn’t do that,” she told the Guardian. “He just says the exact opposite of what he did five minutes ago.”*

Q&A
*Who are the 20 women accusing Donald Trump of assault and harassment?*
No one can argue that Mulcahy didn’t warn them. “He’s a pathological liar. I’ve said that repeatedly and I’ve been saying it since the 80s. He has two sports, golf and lying, and that’s it. He just lies about everything.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/01/trump-gossip-columnist-media-coverage-susan-mulcahy


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## moXJO

Bas do you work for leftist groups?


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Bas do you work for leftist groups?




Jack Nicholson...a few good men.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> The Liar-in Chief.  Chronic and pathalogical. The detail in this story is jaw dropping.  I look forward to seeing Donal Trump sue Susan Mulcahy for defamation...
> 
> * A gossip columnist's guide to outwitting Trump, 'a narcissist beyond description' *
> The former New York Post columnist Susan Mulcahy has been dealing with Trump’s lies for decades. What is her advice to the media on handling him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump: ‘The way he lied I had never experienced,’ says Susan Mulcahy. Photograph: New York Post Archives/The New York Post via Getty Images
> 
> Lucia Graves in Washington
> 
> Friday 1 December 2017 12.00 GMT   Last modified on Friday 1 December 2017 19.58 GMT
> 
> When Donald Trump became a presidential candidate, Susan Mulcahy got a call from a former colleague at New York Newsday. “You’d better stock up on valium,” the ex-colleague said.
> 
> “It’s because I hated him so much,” said Mulcahy, the veteran gossip columnist who covered Trump for years at the New York Post, describing the call. “I would go ballistic if his name was mentioned in the office.”
> 
> Trump’s reputation as a liar now precedes him, but this week it reached new heights. In addition to reports that he regularly brags about winning the votes of a majority of American women – he did not – *other accounts say that he has begun questioning the authenticity of the Access Hollywood tape in which he boasted about grabbing women’s genitals.*
> 
> *It’s an over-the-top falsehood (the hosts of Access Hollywood have reiterated that the tape is authentic) but to Mulcahy, it is just par for the course with Trump. “Most people have an alibi or a backup plan; Trump doesn’t do that,” she told the Guardian. “He just says the exact opposite of what he did five minutes ago.”*
> 
> Q&A
> *Who are the 20 women accusing Donald Trump of assault and harassment?*
> No one can argue that Mulcahy didn’t warn them. “He’s a pathological liar. I’ve said that repeatedly and I’ve been saying it since the 80s. He has two sports, golf and lying, and that’s it. He just lies about everything.”
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/01/trump-gossip-columnist-media-coverage-susan-mulcahy





Yea, Trump bring lying to a whole new level. 

A video tape caught him bragging about sexually assaulting women, yet he now deny he ever said it. It's "made up" by the "fake news" media. wtf? We saw the tape Donald.

Then there's him lying, on stage, about the latest "tax reform". The biggest tax cuts in the history of the US, he brags. But it doesn't benefit him or his billionaire friends. They hate him, they didn't know about the tax cuts helping them and when they call him to complain, he wouldn't help them. It's to benefit the ordinary American.

wtf.

Every non-partisan groups have said that the 'reform' will immediately raise taxes on those earning $35K and lower. Some 80% of the hundreds of billions will go to the top 1 or 5%. 

And then there's his WH spokewoman spinning Trump's retweeting of a fake video claiming Muslim refugee kicking a disabled Norwegian [?] kid off a roof then killing him etc. 

She said to reporters that they're focusing on the wrong thing, it doesn't matter that the tape was fake; what's real is the Islamist threat. Seriously. She said that.

I'm surprised that some 20% of Americans still believe their government. I guess those are the kids just graduating from Kindergarten.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Bas do you work for leftist groups?



 Does one have to be "Leftist" to be concerned about a compulsively lying US president who tweets indiscimminate drivel as US government policy ? Who becomes a tool of Russia to win presidency ?

Is it possible for intelligent "right" thinking people to come to a similar conclusion. Really hope so.


----------



## Tink

------------------------------

_Today's the day that I've been looking very much forward to all year long. It's one that we have heard and we speak about and we dream about and now as the President of the United States, it's my tremendous honor to finally wish America and the world a very Merry Christmas. 

I want to thank everyone who has come together here right in front of the White House, that beautiful, beautiful White House, and everyone watching from home to see the lighting of this incredible national Christmas tree.

For nearly a century, through good times and bad, every president has taken part in this wonderful tradition, first started by President Coolidge. But I was informed tonight that the weather we have is the best it's been in 25 years. In fact, I said, ‘Is it always like this?’ And the secretary said, ‘Hasn't been like this for a long time.’ So, we are very lucky.

Finally, in 1870, President Ulysses S. Grant signed legislation making Christmas a Federal holiday. And I sort of feel we are doing that again. That’s what's happening. 

From the earliest days of our nations, Americans have known Christmas as a time for prayer and worship, for gratitude and good will, for peace and renewal. 

Melania and I are full of joy at the start of this very blessed season. We're thrilled to think of the people across the nation and all across the continent whose spirits are lifted by the miracle of Christmas. 

For Christians, this is a Holy season – the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Christmas story begins 2000 years ago with a mother, a father, their baby son, and the most extraordinary gift of all, the gift of God's love for all of humanity. 

Whatever our beliefs, we know that the birth of Jesus Christ and the story of this incredible life forever changed the course of human history. There’s hardly an aspect of our lives today that his life has not touched: art, music, culture, law, and our respect for the sacred dignity of every person everywhere in the world. 

Each and every year at Christmas time we recognize that the real spirit of Christmas is not what we have, it's about who we are – each one of us is a child of God.

That is the true source of joy this time of the year. 

That is what makes every Christmas ‘merry.’ 

And that is what we remember at today's beautiful ceremony, that we are called to serve one another, to love one another, and to pursue peace in our hearts and all throughout the world. 

And so tonight, I thank the millions of Americans who light our lives and brighten our wonderful communities. I thank those who are serving the needy during the season and throughout the year. I thank our military men and women who are stationed around the world keeping us safe. 

I thank our law enforcement officers who protect our streets and secure our homeland. I thank America's teachers, pastors, and all those religious, and those people that have taught us so much, for their leadership in our communities and our society. 

And, especially tonight, I thank America's families. At Christmas, we are reminded more than ever that the family is the bedrock of American life. 

And so, this Christmas we ask for God’s blessings for our family, for our nation. And we pray that our country will be a place where every child knows a home filled with love, a community rich with hope, and a nation blessed with faith. 

On behalf of Melania, myself, Barron, all of my children, all of my grandchildren — they're here with us tonight — I want to thank you. 

God bless you and God bless the United States of America. Thank you very much. 

Merry Christmas everybody. Merry Christmas. Happy new year. Thank you._


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Does one have to be "Leftist" to be concerned about a compulsively lying US president who tweets indiscimminate drivel as US government policy ? Who becomes a tool of Russia to win presidency ?
> 
> Is it possible for intelligent "right" thinking people to come to a similar conclusion. Really hope so.



I agree he is a dbag and has done some idiotic stuff.

Just some of the articles that you jump on (here and on other threads)are slanted and leading. Some I would question are bordering on lies. If he is going down then I'd rather truth then fiction to turn the tide against him.
I don't like where news media is heading in either direction. Add to the fact that video will soon be able to be manipulated.

I know there are groups hitting social media,  newspaper comments,  old school forums as a form of social engineering.

More curious then an accusation.


----------



## SirRumpole

Is this the beginning of the end for Trump ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-03/donald-trump-may-have-tweeted-himself-into-trouble/9221118


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> ------------------------------
> 
> _Today's the day that I've been looking very much forward to all year long. It's one that we have heard and we speak about and we dream about and now as the President of the United States, it's my tremendous honor to finally wish America and the world a very Merry Christmas.
> 
> I want to thank everyone who has come together here right in front of the White House, that beautiful, beautiful White House, and everyone watching from home to see the lighting of this incredible national Christmas tree.
> 
> For nearly a century, through good times and bad, every president has taken part in this wonderful tradition, first started by President Coolidge. But I was informed tonight that the weather we have is the best it's been in 25 years. In fact, I said, ‘Is it always like this?’ And the secretary said, ‘Hasn't been like this for a long time.’ So, we are very lucky.
> 
> Finally, in 1870, President Ulysses S. Grant signed legislation making Christmas a Federal holiday. And I sort of feel we are doing that again. That’s what's happening.
> 
> From the earliest days of our nations, Americans have known Christmas as a time for prayer and worship, for gratitude and good will, for peace and renewal.
> 
> Melania and I are full of joy at the start of this very blessed season. We're thrilled to think of the people across the nation and all across the continent whose spirits are lifted by the miracle of Christmas.
> 
> For Christians, this is a Holy season – the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Christmas story begins 2000 years ago with a mother, a father, their baby son, and the most extraordinary gift of all, the gift of God's love for all of humanity.
> 
> Whatever our beliefs, we know that the birth of Jesus Christ and the story of this incredible life forever changed the course of human history. There’s hardly an aspect of our lives today that his life has not touched: art, music, culture, law, and our respect for the sacred dignity of every person everywhere in the world.
> 
> Each and every year at Christmas time we recognize that the real spirit of Christmas is not what we have, it's about who we are – each one of us is a child of God.
> 
> That is the true source of joy this time of the year.
> 
> That is what makes every Christmas ‘merry.’
> 
> And that is what we remember at today's beautiful ceremony, that we are called to serve one another, to love one another, and to pursue peace in our hearts and all throughout the world.
> 
> And so tonight, I thank the millions of Americans who light our lives and brighten our wonderful communities. I thank those who are serving the needy during the season and throughout the year. I thank our military men and women who are stationed around the world keeping us safe.
> 
> I thank our law enforcement officers who protect our streets and secure our homeland. I thank America's teachers, pastors, and all those religious, and those people that have taught us so much, for their leadership in our communities and our society.
> 
> And, especially tonight, I thank America's families. At Christmas, we are reminded more than ever that the family is the bedrock of American life.
> 
> And so, this Christmas we ask for God’s blessings for our family, for our nation. And we pray that our country will be a place where every child knows a home filled with love, a community rich with hope, and a nation blessed with faith.
> 
> On behalf of Melania, myself, Barron, all of my children, all of my grandchildren — they're here with us tonight — I want to thank you.
> 
> God bless you and God bless the United States of America. Thank you very much.
> 
> Merry Christmas everybody. Merry Christmas. Happy new year. Thank you._





Trump wouldn't know what Christian Value is even if he grabs it by the you know what.

This two-bit TV reality actor and failed business tycoon somehow know and represents American/Christian value?


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Trump wouldn't know what Christian Value is even if he grabs it by the you know what.
> 
> This two-bit TV reality actor and failed business tycoon somehow know and represents American/Christian value?




Why "failed" ?

He seems to be doing pretty well financially.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Is this the beginning of the end for Trump ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-03/donald-trump-may-have-tweeted-himself-into-trouble/9221118




Trump would be indicted for these kind of stuff. 

He just gave the richest of Americans hundreds of billions in tax cuts, hundreds more billions in military spending; do as he's told and put in place people to gut and neutered any regulation or restriction on business. 

You can't ask for a better president if more money and more profit is all you care about.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Why "failed" ?
> 
> He seems to be doing pretty well financially.




He went bankrupt a few times. The only thing that saved him, over and over, was the US bankruptcy law or corporate structure where a guy like Trump can just take people's money, declare his company's broke and get to keep it. Not paying contractors, workers or the state revenue service etc. etc.

That and his old man left him with $250M.

Some report showed that with $250M invested in the S&P500 would have done better than what Trump's fortune is today. As in, any idiot could just take that money, stash it in the index and go to sleep would do better than Trump. And they don't have to lie and cheat and screw people out of their money either.


----------



## sptrawler

Why are we still going on about Trump? 
The U.S market is going gangbusters, the out of control North Korean guy, hasn't got any idea as to how Trump is going to play the game, neither does anyone else.
If Hillary or Obama was in there, they would be rolling around peeing on themselves, and the North Korean dude would be having a field day.
As it is, he doesn't know whether Trump is a screwy as him, so everything else is cruising along nicely.
It will all work out in the wash, eventually when the time is right, the pair of them will get together for a group hug in front of the camera's.
Then the markets will go BOOM.
If you want the full unabridged version with a signed copy, just contact me. lol


----------



## Tink

President Donald J. Trump's Proclamation on Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Israel

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...ecognizing-jerusalem-capital-state-israel-and


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> President Donald J. Trump's Proclamation on Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Israel
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...ecognizing-jerusalem-capital-state-israel-and




What could possibly go wrong.

The Palestinians get upset, throw a few rocks and set a few tyres on fire. The Israelis will just shoot them.

Israel is a few steps closer to following God's promise, then eventually the Palestinians will either all die in those open air prisons, or Jordan takes more of them... can't be Jordan because some in Israel also defined that as God's promised land too. 

But it sure is a few steps closer to Rapture where everybody dies.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Why are we still going on about Trump?
> The U.S market is going gangbusters, the out of control North Korean guy, hasn't got any idea as to how Trump is going to play the game, neither does anyone else.
> If Hillary or Obama was in there, they would be rolling around peeing on themselves, and the North Korean dude would be having a field day.
> As it is, he doesn't know whether Trump is a screwy as him, so everything else is cruising along nicely.
> It will all work out in the wash, eventually when the time is right, the pair of them will get together for a group hug in front of the camera's.
> Then the markets will go BOOM.
> If you want the full unabridged version with a signed copy, just contact me. lol




Hillary and Obama were peace doves? 

Obama bring two wars in the Middle East to seven. Add another one in the Ukraine and a planning a couple in Africa before he left office.

Hillary threatened to wiped out Iran, like all tough leaders do... Just to prove she weren't kidding, she pushed for Libya's Qaddafi to be droned and the country liberated. We came, we saw, he died... cackle cackle cackle. It's so funny because he did die, get it?


----------



## luutzu

Trump aren't the only ones taking money from the poor, the weak, the old, the infants... and give it all to himself and his buddies.

A Senator was outraged that there are people who would shower billions and billions on people who are so lazy they don't raised a finger to help themselves... the children! From poor families! Needing food and health insurance! Lazy parasites! Should have been born rich and inherit your parents billions at zero tax.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> What could possibly go wrong.
> 
> The Palestinians get upset, throw a few rocks and set a few tyres on fire. The Israelis will just shoot them.
> 
> Israel is a few steps closer to following God's promise, then eventually the Palestinians will either all die in those open air prisons, or Jordan takes more of them... can't be Jordan because some in Israel also defined that as God's promised land too.
> 
> But it sure is a few steps closer to Rapture where everybody dies.





My bet is that "Palestinians" aren't the original biblical mob, because as Phillistines they looked like the Hebrew Tribes, so much so that Sampson preferred it as his home and blended in. The place was part of the Ottoman Empire for several centuries before the Sykes-Picot Agreement, so there's probably a real chance the gene pool is from all over, including the Saudi Bedouins who Britain gave asylum to into Palestine and what is now Jordan around the 1920's.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> My bet is that "Palestinians" aren't the original biblical mob, because as Phillistines they looked like the Hebrew Tribes, so much so that Sampson preferred it as his home and blended in. The place was part of the Ottoman Empire for several centuries before the Sykes-Picot Agreement, so there's probably a real chance the gene pool is from all over, including the Saudi Bedouins who Britain gave asylum to into Palestine and what is now Jordan around the 1920's.




Aren't most of the better Israelis in Israel came from either the former Soviet bloc, outlaws and scam artists from the UK, US, Australia and 'merka? Isn't their current King David, Bibi, some low level advisor to Reagan?

But regardless of how long and how many generations of the current Palestinians were there before they got evicted or slaughtered, we all know that on these kind of colonial-settler projects, it's not history and nativism, it's about superior culture, bestest civilisation and freedom spreading its wings, liberating people from their stuff then pretend to not know why they're so upset and angry about it. 

Don't know, if I'm Jewish I'd be pretty upset at what a bunch of corrupt, racist, fascist aholes are doing using my name and my people's suffering.


----------



## Tisme




----------



## SirRumpole

Republican Roy Moore suffers shock defeat in Alabama.

First Democrat Senator from Alabama in 25 years.

GOP senate majority now 51-49.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...y-moore-beaten-in-crucial-senate-race/9255478


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Republican Roy Moore suffers shock defeat in Alabama.
> 
> First Democrat Senator from Alabama in 25 years.
> 
> GOP senate majority now 51-49.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...y-moore-beaten-in-crucial-senate-race/9255478




What's more shocking is that he even had a chance of winning.

I mean, among his half dozen or more accusers two of them claimed he sexually assaulted them when they were 14, 17 when he was in his 30s. 

Are all of them lying? Maybe, maybe not. Should be investigated at least, not being supported by the president. 

I heard his wife coming out to support him. Saying, among other things, that he can't be racist because one of their lawyers is a Jew. ha ha... her words, almost exactly.


----------



## basilio

The USA Today Editorial Board have written the strongest condemnation to date of Donald Truimps fitness to be President.   It's a bit (actually a LOT..) more than calling him a sexist pig. It details many of the innumerable appalling things Trump has done. 

*Will Trump's lows ever hit rock bottom?*
The Editorial Board, USA TODAY Published 7:30 p.m. ET Dec. 12, 2017 | Updated 9:12 a.m. ET Dec. 13, 2017


_White House Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders flatly denied that President Donald Trump's tweet about NY Senator Kirsten Gillibrand was in any way sexist, insisting only people with their minds "in the gutter" would have read it that way. (Dec. 12) AP_

*A president who'd all but call a senator a whore is unfit to clean toilets in Obama's presidential library or to shine George W. Bush's shoes: *
*Our view*
 1009 COMMENTEMAILMORE

With his latest tweet, clearly implying that a United States senator would trade sexual favors for campaign cash, President Trump has shown he is not fit for office. Rock bottom is no impediment for a president who can always find room for a new low.
 
White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders on Tuesday dismissed the president's smear as a misunderstanding because he used similar language about men. Of course, words used about men and women are different. When candidate Trump said a journalist was bleeding from her "wherever," he didn't mean her nose.

And as is the case with all of Trump's digital provocations, the president's words were deliberate. He pours the gasoline of sexist language and lights the match gleefully knowing how it will burst into flame in a country reeling from the #MeToo moment.  

*RNC: *Democrats’ response is laughable

A president who would all but call Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand a whore is not fit to clean the toilets in the Barack Obama Presidential Library or to shine the shoes of George W. Bush.

This isn’t about the policy differences we have with all presidents or our disappointment in some of their decisions. Obama and Bush both failed in many ways. They broke promises and told untruths, but the basic decency of each man was never in doubt.

Donald Trump, the man, on the other hand, is uniquely awful. His sickening behavior is corrosive to the enterprise of a shared governance based on common values and the consent of the governed.

It should surprise no one how low he went with Gillibrand. When accused during the campaign of sexually harassing or molesting women in the past, Trump’s response was to belittle the looks of his accusers. Last October, Trump suggested that he never would have groped Jessica Leeds on an airplane decades ago: “Believe me, she would not be my first choice, that I can tell you.” Trump mocked another accuser, former _People_ reporter Natasha Stoynoff, “Check out her Facebook, you’ll understand.”  Other celebrities and politicians have denied accusations, but none has stooped as low as suggesting that their accusers weren’t attractive enough to be honored with their gropes.

If recent history is any guide, the unique awfulness of the Trump era in U.S. politics is only going to get worse. Trump’s utter lack of morality, ethics and simple humanity has been underscored during his 11 months in office. Let us count the ways:


He is enthusiastically supporting Alabama's Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, who has been accused of pursuing — and in one case molesting and in another assaulting — teenagers as young as 14 when Moore was a county prosecutor in his 30s. On Tuesday, Trump summed up his willingness to support a man accused of criminal conduct: “Roy Moore will always vote with us.”
Trump apparently is going for some sort of record for lying while in office. As of mid-November, he had made 1,628 misleading or false statements in 298 days in office. That’s 5.5 false claims per day, according to a count kept by _The Washington Post_’s fact-checkers.
Trump takes advantage of any occasion — even Monday’s failed terrorist attack in New York — to stir racial, religious or ethnic strife. Congress “must end chain migration,” he said Monday, because the terror suspect “entered our country through extended-family chain migration, which is incompatible with national security.” So because one man — 27-year-old Akayed Ullah, a lawful permanent resident of the U.S. who came from Bangladesh on a family immigrant visa in 2011 —  is accused of attacking America, all immigrants brought to this country by family are suspect? Trump might have some credibility if his criticism of immigrants was solely about terrorists. It isn’t.  It makes no difference to him if an immigrant is a terrorist or a federal judge. He once smeared an Indiana-born judge whose parents emigrated from Mexico. It’s all the same to this president.
A man who clearly wants to put his stamp on the government, Trump hasn’t even done his job when it comes to filling key government positions that require Senate confirmation. As of last week, Trump had failed to nominate anyone for 60% of 1,200 key positions he can fill to keep the government running smoothly.
Trump has shown contempt for ethical strictures that have bound every president in recent memory.  He has refused to release his tax returns, with the absurd excuse that it’s because he is under audit.  He has refused to put his multibillion dollar business interests in a blind trust and peddles the fiction that putting them in the hands of his sons does the same thing.
Not to mention calling white supremacists "very fine people," pardoning a lawless sheriff, firing a respected FBI director, and pushing the Justice Department to investigate his political foes.

It is a shock that only six Democratic senators are calling for our unstable president to resign.

The nation doesn’t seek nor expect perfect presidents, and some have certainly been deeply flawed. But a president who shows such disrespect for the truth, for ethics, for the basic duties of the job and for decency toward others fails at the very essence of what has always made America great.

_USA TODAY's editorial opinions are decided by its Editorial Board, separate from the news staff. Most editorials are coupled with an opposing view — a unique USA TODAY feature.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...hit-rock-bottom-editorials-debates/945947001/_


----------



## qldfrog

democracy is so annoying isn't it!!!


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> The USA Today Editorial Board have written the strongest condemnation to date of Donald Truimps fitness to be President.   It's a bit (actually a LOT..) more than calling him a sexist pig. It details many of the innumerable appalling things Trump has done.
> 
> *Will Trump's lows ever hit rock bottom?*
> The Editorial Board, USA TODAY Published 7:30 p.m. ET Dec. 12, 2017 | Updated 9:12 a.m. ET Dec. 13, 2017
> 
> 
> _White House Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders flatly denied that President Donald Trump's tweet about NY Senator Kirsten Gillibrand was in any way sexist, insisting only people with their minds "in the gutter" would have read it that way. (Dec. 12) AP_
> 
> *A president who'd all but call a senator a whore is unfit to clean toilets in Obama's presidential library or to shine George W. Bush's shoes: *
> *Our view*
> 1009 COMMENTEMAILMORE
> 
> With his latest tweet, clearly implying that a United States senator would trade sexual favors for campaign cash, President Trump has shown he is not fit for office. Rock bottom is no impediment for a president who can always find room for a new low.
> 
> White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders on Tuesday dismissed the president's smear as a misunderstanding because he used similar language about men. Of course, words used about men and women are different. When candidate Trump said a journalist was bleeding from her "wherever," he didn't mean her nose.
> 
> And as is the case with all of Trump's digital provocations, the president's words were deliberate. He pours the gasoline of sexist language and lights the match gleefully knowing how it will burst into flame in a country reeling from the #MeToo moment.
> 
> *RNC: *Democrats’ response is laughable
> 
> A president who would all but call Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand a whore is not fit to clean the toilets in the Barack Obama Presidential Library or to shine the shoes of George W. Bush.
> 
> This isn’t about the policy differences we have with all presidents or our disappointment in some of their decisions. Obama and Bush both failed in many ways. They broke promises and told untruths, but the basic decency of each man was never in doubt.
> 
> Donald Trump, the man, on the other hand, is uniquely awful. His sickening behavior is corrosive to the enterprise of a shared governance based on common values and the consent of the governed.
> 
> It should surprise no one how low he went with Gillibrand. When accused during the campaign of sexually harassing or molesting women in the past, Trump’s response was to belittle the looks of his accusers. Last October, Trump suggested that he never would have groped Jessica Leeds on an airplane decades ago: “Believe me, she would not be my first choice, that I can tell you.” Trump mocked another accuser, former _People_ reporter Natasha Stoynoff, “Check out her Facebook, you’ll understand.”  Other celebrities and politicians have denied accusations, but none has stooped as low as suggesting that their accusers weren’t attractive enough to be honored with their gropes.
> 
> If recent history is any guide, the unique awfulness of the Trump era in U.S. politics is only going to get worse. Trump’s utter lack of morality, ethics and simple humanity has been underscored during his 11 months in office. Let us count the ways:
> 
> 
> He is enthusiastically supporting Alabama's Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, who has been accused of pursuing — and in one case molesting and in another assaulting — teenagers as young as 14 when Moore was a county prosecutor in his 30s. On Tuesday, Trump summed up his willingness to support a man accused of criminal conduct: “Roy Moore will always vote with us.”
> Trump apparently is going for some sort of record for lying while in office. As of mid-November, he had made 1,628 misleading or false statements in 298 days in office. That’s 5.5 false claims per day, according to a count kept by _The Washington Post_’s fact-checkers.
> Trump takes advantage of any occasion — even Monday’s failed terrorist attack in New York — to stir racial, religious or ethnic strife. Congress “must end chain migration,” he said Monday, because the terror suspect “entered our country through extended-family chain migration, which is incompatible with national security.” So because one man — 27-year-old Akayed Ullah, a lawful permanent resident of the U.S. who came from Bangladesh on a family immigrant visa in 2011 —  is accused of attacking America, all immigrants brought to this country by family are suspect? Trump might have some credibility if his criticism of immigrants was solely about terrorists. It isn’t.  It makes no difference to him if an immigrant is a terrorist or a federal judge. He once smeared an Indiana-born judge whose parents emigrated from Mexico. It’s all the same to this president.
> A man who clearly wants to put his stamp on the government, Trump hasn’t even done his job when it comes to filling key government positions that require Senate confirmation. As of last week, Trump had failed to nominate anyone for 60% of 1,200 key positions he can fill to keep the government running smoothly.
> Trump has shown contempt for ethical strictures that have bound every president in recent memory.  He has refused to release his tax returns, with the absurd excuse that it’s because he is under audit.  He has refused to put his multibillion dollar business interests in a blind trust and peddles the fiction that putting them in the hands of his sons does the same thing.
> Not to mention calling white supremacists "very fine people," pardoning a lawless sheriff, firing a respected FBI director, and pushing the Justice Department to investigate his political foes.
> 
> It is a shock that only six Democratic senators are calling for our unstable president to resign.
> 
> The nation doesn’t seek nor expect perfect presidents, and some have certainly been deeply flawed. But a president who shows such disrespect for the truth, for ethics, for the basic duties of the job and for decency toward others fails at the very essence of what has always made America great.
> 
> _USA TODAY's editorial opinions are decided by its Editorial Board, separate from the news staff. Most editorials are coupled with an opposing view — a unique USA TODAY feature.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...hit-rock-bottom-editorials-debates/945947001/_




It's a bit of a joke isn't it. Selecting only certain crimes and disasters to suit their agenda like that.

A terrorist tries to attack the US, so all Muslims and immigrants are dangerous and potential terrorists and the US must get rid of them, allow more invasion of privacy and annulling rights to be charged and legal representation etc. etc.

When a (White) terrorist uses automatic rifles, shoot into a crowd killing some 60 innocent Americans... Guns don't kill people, crazy people with crap load of machine guns kill people. Or some crazy idiot shoot up primary school children... meh, what can we do, guns equals freedom. 

Don't have money to help their poor and sick, give some breaks for students trying to learn and improve their station in life - maybe even contribute to that greater American value and technological advantage... Nope. No money. 

But when the Pentagon asks for $700Billion a year recently... the Congress figured what was asked was not enough. They literally added $70B on top of what the generals ask. 

Bushfire in Winter raging on for almost two weeks. Hurricanes and floods... Costing taxpayers an estimated $400Billion so far this year. What climate change? Impossible! Why risk clean air and renewables, create more jobs and save people money? 

It's insane.


----------



## luutzu

qldfrog said:


> democracy is so annoying isn't it!!!




It's not really a democracy now is it?

Recent polls in the US show that some 80% of Americans do not favour the current Trump "tax reform"... it's going ahead.

Some 60% of Americans want universal healthcare. Not free healthcare, just a single-payer healthcare system where they are taxed (pay a premium) to the gov't who handles the billing and negotiation. It reduces the costs to everyone; covers everyone... 

How can you afford cheaper healthcare? Cheaper for you and it also help your fellow citizens who need care but can't afford it. Why would you want that? 

Or the current debate on Net Neutrality... Beside the big ISPs and telecom companies, who the heck want Net Neutrality removed? Yet there it is, being "debated" then ramp down citizen's throat. 

There was a reason why an idiot like Trump won the election. It's not because people like him personally or think he is more qualified.

He's not only doing the same BS the citizens hated the establishment for, he ramp it up to high heaven. 

There's only so many chances the peasants would give the established orders to make their lives better. To keep switch and bait between two parties that deliver basically the same bs decade after decade... The next new hope and change might not be done through the ballot box.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> It's not really a democracy now is it?
> 
> Recent polls in the US show that some 80% of Americans do not favour the current Trump "tax reform"... it's going ahead.
> 
> Some 60% of Americans want universal healthcare. Not free healthcare, just a single-payer healthcare system where they are taxed (pay a premium) to the gov't who handles the billing and negotiation. It reduces the costs to everyone; covers everyone...
> 
> How can you afford cheaper healthcare? Cheaper for you and it also help your fellow citizens who need care but can't afford it. Why would you want that?
> 
> Or the current debate on Net Neutrality... Beside the big ISPs and telecom companies, who the heck want Net Neutrality removed? Yet there it is, being "debated" then ramp down citizen's throat.
> 
> There was a reason why an idiot like Trump won the election. It's not because people like him personally or think he is more qualified.
> 
> He's not only doing the same BS the citizens hated the establishment for, he ramp it up to high heaven.
> 
> There's only so many chances the peasants would give the established orders to make their lives better. To keep switch and bait between two parties that deliver basically the same bs decade after decade... The next new hope and change might not be done through the ballot box.



Yeah, its a shame he didn't shake Washington up a bit more.
Revolution it is.....


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Yeah, its a shame he didn't shake Washington up a bit more.
> Revolution it is.....





It sound insane but there is just so many similarities to the world of the 1930s.

Obama had an opportunity to save the day and turn the country around, but instead he simply save those that matters to his political career.

That gave the US, and the world, Donald farking J Trump. A TV clown so clueless to world history and the consequences of decisions at his level that it'd be funny if it weren't so dangerous and real.

A good summary of what happened in the 1930s. How FDR reigned in American capitalists, create social safety nets, put Americans back to work... all just in time to save the US from turning fascists like Germany, Italy... or towards Communism like Czarist Russia. 

A great series of interviews discussing the systematic undoing of FDR's New Deal because, apparently, there was a "crisis of Democracy" during the 60s and 70s where the peasants are too well educated, live in modest comfort that they started to demand ends to imperial wars, environmental protection, civil rights for the coloured folks etc.


----------



## Knobby22

History repeats.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> History repeats.




Was wondering that, as historians pointed out, FDR's New Deal saved American capitalism/democracy from collapsing into fascism... does the undoing of it mean the country is back on course to what was deemed inevitable? 

I mean, since the New Deal's undoing... the average American's standard of living, wages, social mobility.. they have either declined, stagnate or screwed. 

Add to these they have wealth inequity as wide as during the time of the Pharaohs [Richard Wolf]; fighting wars on a few continents; troops, military bases, drones and intelligence all over the world. Something gotta give.


----------



## Knobby22

luutzu said:


> Was wondering that, as historians pointed out, FDR's New Deal saved American capitalism/democracy from collapsing into fascism... does the undoing of it mean the country is back on course to what was deemed inevitable?
> 
> I mean, since the New Deal's undoing... the average American's standard of living, wages, social mobility.. they have either declined, stagnate or screwed.
> 
> Add to these they have wealth inequity as wide as during the time of the Pharaohs [Richard Wolf]; fighting wars on a few continents; troops, military bases, drones and intelligence all over the world. Something gotta give.




It will give.
Trumps latest policy of steal from the poor and give to the rich is going to be a wake up call for some.
When something does give it will be strong. You can feel the tension rising over there. It may still be fifteen years away.

Spoke to a friend yesterday, an architect, who was over there this year and he said the infrastructure (bridges, roads, parks, etc.)  was in very poor condition. The place is turning into South America. Didn't Trump promise to fix this? He better.


----------



## basilio

So Donald Trump is not planning to sack Robert Mueller. Will  special counsel Mueller  last until Christmas or is his demise Donalds special Chrissie present to himself and his crooked cronies ?

* Trump says he is not planning to fire Mueller as Republican attacks increase *

Congressmen and rightwing media ramp up claims of anti-Trump bias

Opinion: What is the Republican playbook for the Mueller investigation?






Donald Trump steps off Marine One on the South Lawn at the White House, after returning from Camp David in Maryland. Photograph: Andrew Harnik/AP
Martin Pengelly

 
@MartinPengelly

Monday 18 December 2017 09.51 AEDT   First published on Monday 18 December 2017 04.30 AEDT


*Shares*
171

Donald Trump said on Sunday he was not planning to fire Robert Mueller, the special counsel investigating alleged collusion between Trump aides and Russia during the 2016 election.

Speaking to reporters on his arrival back at the White House from Camp David, the president was asked if he intended to take a step that many observers have anticipated and one Democratic congresswoman said could come as soon as Friday.

He replied: “No, I’m not.”

Trump also repeated his contention that there was “no collusion whatsoever” between his aides and Russia.

Earlier in the day, amidst fevered speculation on the issue, senior administration officials criticised Mueller’s work.

Director of legislative affairs Marc Short told NBC there was “no conversation whatsoever in the White House” about firing Mueller and said “the reality is that this administration has complied in every possible way with the special counsel”.

But he added: “Taxpayers have spent millions and millions of dollars on this investigation and it has not yet proven any sense of collusion with the Russians. I think the American people are ready to turn the page.”

Steven Mnuchin, the treasury secretary, told CNN Mueller’s work had become “a giant distraction” that “should be over quickly”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/17/trump-robert-mueller-special-counsel-speculation


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> It will give.
> Trumps latest policy of steal from the poor and give to the rich is going to be a wake up call for some.
> When something does give it will be strong. You can feel the tension rising over there. It may still be fifteen years away.
> 
> Spoke to a friend yesterday, an architect, who was over there this year and he said the infrastructure (bridges, roads, parks, etc.)  was in very poor condition. The place is turning into South America. Didn't Trump promise to fix this? He better.



It was a crumbling $hithole back in the 90's.
Probably been like that since the 60's.


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> It will give.
> Trumps latest policy of steal from the poor and give to the rich is going to be a wake up call for some.
> When something does give it will be strong. You can feel the tension rising over there. It may still be fifteen years away.
> 
> Spoke to a friend yesterday, an architect, who was over there this year and he said the infrastructure (bridges, roads, parks, etc.)  was in very poor condition. The place is turning into South America. Didn't Trump promise to fix this? He better.




Yea, their engineers rated US infrastructure a D- or something. 

Some investigative report counted over 3,000 US cities having higher level of lead in its drinking water than Flint at its worst. My wife's cousins there said they don't drink or cook with tap water, have to buy bottled for consumption. That's Third World right there.

Trump made lots of promises. He tend to fulfil ones that make himself, his family and his billionaires rich first and foremost.

Even the drive to evict illegals and banning immigrants and refugees. Those were already carried out under Obama at unheard of numbers. Trump make a lot of noise about it but it's practically the same. 

Reason is not about Muslims or national security/terrorism... it's just economics. There's already too many poor people so they don't need anymore; jobs even poor Americans won't do - farm hand at illegal wages - those are being mechanised.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Reason is not about Muslims or national security/terrorism... .




Yeah it is. The USA is the last bastion of, albeit residual, old school immigration policies that were based on the Anglo systems. For instance the ethnic Chinese were specifically excluded from naturalisation because of their ingrained desire to identify with China rather than their place of residence.... so much so, enmasse they scabbed wealth from the host nation to send back to Asia.  

They rejected on the basis of education, health, language, war brides, put quotas on regions, etc. And then in the 60's they started to skew away from their roots and limit Western Europeans and Brits in favour of orientals and that's when the seeds were sown for the stink they are in today..... no active cultural assimilation policies; just flag, baseball, gridiron and military uniform worship.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> no active cultural assimilation policies; just flag, baseball, gridiron and military uniform worship.




and guns... and people dying because they can't afford health insurance.

And bad westerns... kill them injuns those ignorant bastards...


----------



## basilio

One thing Donald Trump is doing is nominating scores of people to fill* life time *positions as Federal judges. Check out just what sort of utterly incompetant nominess he has offered with the sole purpose of creating a mindless conservative judiciary. 

This is priceless.
* This man sums up all that is wrong about Trump's takeover of the courts *
Richard Wolffe
Trump nominee Matthew Petersen is probably the single most ill-prepared and inexperienced person considered for any federal position in recent times



‘It is our learned opinion that Petersen is an embarrassing fool who has no business wearing a judge’s robes.’ Photograph: Senator Sheldon Whitehouse/ Twitter
Contact author

@richardwolffedc

Sunday 17 December 2017 00.39 AEDT   First published on Saturday 16 December 2017 22.00 AEDT


*Shares*
5079
 
* Comments*
 738 
It is perhaps understandable that people focus on the global impact of a reckless, petulant and ignorant president. North Korea, Iran, global warming, Jerusalem: there’s plenty to keep you awake at night if you’re at all concerned about the world burning.

But all that means we overlook the smaller fires that will burn for a lifetime, destroying communities and citizens closer to home.

Because it turns out that a boneheaded president has a remarkable ability to nominate boneheaded federal judges who will serve an unlimited term as they undermine public confidence in justice and government. Much like the man who put their names forward in the first place.

For now the focus is on the single most ill-prepared and inexperienced nominee for any federal position in recent times: Matthew Petersen.

Petersen is nominated for a lifetime’s job as a US district judge in Washington DC, where the courts regularly shape the conduct of the federal government.

This columnist may have no legal qualifications whatsoever. But having sat in the E Barrett Prettyman courthouse for months on end, it is our learned opinion that Petersen is an embarrassing fool who has no business wearing a judge’s robes.

Petersen wilted in the face of the simple and polite questioning by Senator John Kennedy, a Trump-supporting Republican from Louisiana, not previously known as a leader of the vast leftwing conspiracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/16/matthew-peterson-judges-robes
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...mped-on-basic-law-questions-at-senate-hearing


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Yeah it is. The USA is the last bastion of, albeit residual, old school immigration policies that were based on the Anglo systems. For instance the ethnic Chinese were specifically excluded from naturalisation because of their ingrained desire to identify with China rather than their place of residence.... so much so, enmasse they scabbed wealth from the host nation to send back to Asia.
> 
> They rejected on the basis of education, health, language, war brides, put quotas on regions, etc. And then in the 60's they started to skew away from their roots and limit Western Europeans and Brits in favour of orientals and that's when the seeds were sown for the stink they are in today..... no active cultural assimilation policies; just flag, baseball, gridiron and military uniform worship.




The yanks didn't discriminate the Chins for those reasons. They discriminate for the same reason all people discriminate: The other aren't as awesome as they are.

Hence, Franklin don't much want the new republic to accept the less civilised Europeans. He have his preference and they're all Anglo, Franco and such superior breeds of Europeans.

Then came the Irish... didn't get on very well early on either. etc. etc.

But we're in the 21st century and character are measure by a new standard: money. Have lots of it and even if you're a Muslim or an African American, you're one of the few "good ones".


----------



## Tink

_If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under._

- Ronald Reagan


----------



## Value Collector

Tink said:


> _If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under._
> 
> - Ronald Reagan




ISIS says the same thing.


----------



## Tink

Here you go..

https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles...nt-trump-revives-traditions-religious-spirit/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Here you go..
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles...nt-trump-revives-traditions-religious-spirit/
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/




Trump's admin and his brand of Christian ethics:




To be fair, it's started long, long before Trump stumble into the White House. 

Quite incredible.


----------



## Tink

If you  have forgotten Luutzu, Ronald Reagan was anti communism.

Cuba is still there.
They can call out for Castro.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The yanks didn't discriminate the Chins for those reasons. They discriminate for the same reason all people discriminate: The other aren't as awesome as they are.
> 
> .






You familiar with the old Australian saying"nobody likes a scab" ?  The Chinese picking over gold field spoils and sending the money back to China didn't help their reputation, based on the prevailing cultural norms of the day. They didn't do things the same way as the Europeans and locals were used to and worse they looked different too.


----------



## Tink

Trump is the most conservative president since Reagan.


----------



## Logique

Tink said:


> Trump is the most conservative president since Reagan.



And the best.  Plenty of opinion that Obama was the worst.


----------



## IFocus

So here's a story that's totally unbelievable.

US votes in a TV Reality Star because there was no body else and he pretty much tells a lie every 20 mins (on a good day) because .....well he is a TV reality star.

Then a party that has howled like werewolves about dept used to save the country from economic melt down now adds $1.5 tril giving it away to themselves and their mates.

Now stay with me because this is so technical I don't understand it but here goes.

You take money from the poor and middle class give it to the rich and wealthy corporations hoping that they give it back to the poor and middle class you know the majority of people in the country and then brag about it.

I know totally unbelievable....could never happen.


----------



## dutchie

Trump is to blame for US stock market soaring.


----------



## grah33

Trump has done some good stuff, but the Jerusalem thing is terrible. I think he's misguided here. It doesn't matter if the Jews owned Jerusalem before (in ancient times), u just can't kick a people out of their long held land and living conditions. It's grievous to the Arabs. And I don't think Israel really is a democracy – u gotta have Jewish blood to be a citizen (haven't got time to check my facts...).  Also, Israel's political views are inspired by the Torah (Old Testament) and Talmud. These books alone aren't very kind imo.


----------



## grah33

just to add , you can't kick a people out of their land even if you don't think it's their land or it isn't their land after so much history has gone by.  It's against fairness and  charity


----------



## Logique

Well I still think it was utterly spineless of Australia to abstain from the Jerusalem vote at the UN. This happened on the Loyal Deputy's watch. 

Allies Britain, France, Germany, Japan - all supported the US on this vote.

Why should Trump accept any of our refugees?


----------



## Logique

Sorry Malcolm, it's not you.







> 22 December 2017 - *Position Vacant*:* Australia’s Trump*
> Paul Collits, Quadrant Online: http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2017/12/position-vacant-australias-trump/
> The US President tapped a body of sentiment that repulses the mainstream political class, and that opportunity also exists here.  If you want to shop safe from imported Muslim hell drivers, miss affordable electricity and think little kids should master sums before sodomy, all you lack is the right candidate ...


----------



## basilio

It appears Alexader Downer was one of the first people to learn from Trumps advisors *that the Russians had heisted Hilary Clintons emails. 
*

* Trump aide told Australian diplomat Russia had dirt on Clinton – report *
George Papadopoulos spoke to high commissioner Alexander Downer at London bar in May 2016, catalyzing FBI investigation, New York Times reports




George Papadopoulos in London. US officials told the NYT it was Papadopoulos’s revelation, not the infamous Steele dossier, that lead to Russia inquiry. Photograph: -/AFP/Getty Images
Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington

Sun 31 Dec ‘17 11.17 AEDT   First published on Sun 31 Dec ‘17 08.04 AEDT

*Shares*
581

The FBI reportedly launched its investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 US election after George Papadopoulos, then a foreign policy adviser to Donald Trump, told an Australian diplomat that Moscow had damaging information about Hillary Clinton.

According to a report published by the New York Times on Saturday, Papadopoulos made the revelation to Alexander Downer, the Australian high commissioner to the UK, “during a night of heavy drinking” at the Kensington Wine Rooms in London in May 2016.

Papadopoulos reportedly told Downer that Russian officials possessed thousands of emails that could harm Clinton’s candidacy.

Australia is part of the “Five Eyes” intelligence alliance, with the US, UK, Canada and New Zealand. When WikiLeaks began publishing hacked emails from Democratic officials two months later, Australian officials passed the information to their US counterparts, the Times report stated. The FBI then began its investigation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...quiry-george-papadopoulos-australian-diplomat


----------



## luutzu

Looks like Trump is about to help liberate the Iranians, again.

Weren't long ago that Nikki Haley gave a speech in front of some recovered Iranian missile... now there's protests and possibly democratic uprising across Iran. 

There's a reason why Bush Jr. decided not to proceed with the original plan for Iran. Their military can put up a serious fight. Then there's Russia and China backing them... if anything, it's to spent US resources and getting a mate's rate on the oil and gas for China.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Looks like Trump is about to help liberate the Iranians, again.
> 
> Weren't long ago that Nikki Haley gave a speech in front of some recovered Iranian missile... now there's protests and possibly democratic uprising across Iran.
> 
> There's a reason why Bush Jr. decided not to proceed with the original plan for Iran. Their military can put up a serious fight. Then there's Russia and China backing them... if anything, it's to spent US resources and getting a mate's rate on the oil and gas for China.




The pipeline of missile funds from North Korea has dried up with the latest round of sanctions. Coupled with bird flu and spending on clerical institutions, the Iranians are starving.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The pipeline of missile funds from North Korea has dried up with the latest round of sanctions. Coupled with bird flu and spending on clerical institutions, the Iranians are starving.




They weren't starving all those years the US and "international community" sanctioned them?

I'm not defending the Iranian, I guess we'd call them "regime"... But come on, even I know these protests aren't grassroots anger bubbling up. 

The guys around Trump have been dusting off the old Bush Jr's plan for rid the world of this Axis of Evil. Jr didn't go along with it because Afghanistan and Iraq became a bit of a drain on the budget. 

Now that proper accounting, deficit and wars in the Middle East are as common as drones over the Arabian skies, the war hawks in Washington and Tel Aviv might have a chance to sacrifice other people's sons and daughters for good to triumph over evil.

The Comrades in Beijing and Moscow are definitely laughing their azzes off. Well, maybe not Moscow, Beijing for sure though.

You big man, you go fight more evil Arabs and Persians. We yellow man, we take over all of the seas we like. Then we retake Taiwan, then control all access to our Middle Kingdom. Then we push right up to your military bases in the Pacific. Then you either risk nuclear war where we all die, or learn to live with us  dominating any region of the world we like.


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> But come on, even I know these protests aren't grassroots anger bubbling up.



What you think the citizens of Iran protesting are all on US payroll?
What exactly is making them risk life and limb by rioting in the streets if is not grass roots hunger?
Perhaps it has something to do with the dictatorship shutting down the little free speech they had on social media that was getting a bit accurate with respect to where all the new oil money going whilst inflation is rocketing and unemployment is at 12%?!


> Then we retake Taiwan, then control all access to our Middle Kingdom.



  Taiwan is China proper.  The only 'we' that doesn't control Taiwan is the Chinese Communist Party who does not represent the will of the Chinese people.  As they do not in Hong  Kong or any of the places the CCP has invaded under the stolen 'name of the Chinese People.' -
*Anti-Beijing protesters march in Hong Kong over ‘suppression’*
*http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/a...n/news-story/adf566da912374315432774015b5b58a*


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> They weren't starving all those years the US and "international community" sanctioned them?
> 
> I'm not defending the Iranian, I guess we'd call them "regime"... But come on, even I know these protests aren't grassroots anger bubbling up.
> 
> The guys around Trump have been dusting off the old Bush Jr's plan for rid the world of this Axis of Evil. Jr didn't go along with it because Afghanistan and Iraq became a bit of a drain on the budget.
> 
> Now that proper accounting, deficit and wars in the Middle East are as common as drones over the Arabian skies, the war hawks in Washington and Tel Aviv might have a chance to sacrifice other people's sons and daughters for good to triumph over evil.
> 
> The Comrades in Beijing and Moscow are definitely laughing their azzes off. Well, maybe not Moscow, Beijing for sure though.
> 
> You big man, you go fight more evil Arabs and Persians. We yellow man, we take over all of the seas we like. Then we retake Taiwan, then control all access to our Middle Kingdom. Then we push right up to your military bases in the Pacific. Then you either risk nuclear war where we all die, or learn to live with us  dominating any region of the world we like.





luutzu said:


> They weren't starving all those years the US and "international community" sanctioned them?
> 
> I'm not defending the Iranian, I guess we'd call them "regime"... But come on, even I know these protests aren't grassroots anger bubbling up.
> 
> The guys around Trump have been dusting off the old Bush Jr's plan for rid the world of this Axis of Evil. Jr didn't go along with it because Afghanistan and Iraq became a bit of a drain on the budget.
> 
> Now that proper accounting, deficit and wars in the Middle East are as common as drones over the Arabian skies, the war hawks in Washington and Tel Aviv might have a chance to sacrifice other people's sons and daughters for good to triumph over evil.
> 
> The Comrades in Beijing and Moscow are definitely laughing their azzes off. Well, maybe not Moscow, Beijing for sure though.
> 
> You big man, you go fight more evil Arabs and Persians. We yellow man, we take over all of the seas we like. Then we retake Taiwan, then control all access to our Middle Kingdom. Then we push right up to your military bases in the Pacific. Then you either risk nuclear war where we all die, or learn to live with us  dominating any region of the world we like.



China will fail. People have a taste for freedom after being "woke" by the internet.
The west has already infected Asia.


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> What you think the citizens of Iran protesting are all on US payroll?
> What exactly is making them risk life and limb by rioting in the streets if is not grass roots hunger?
> Perhaps it has something to do with the dictatorship shutting down the little free speech they had on social media that was getting a bit accurate with respect to where all the new oil money going whilst inflation is rocketing and unemployment is at 12%?!
> Taiwan is China proper.  The only 'we' that doesn't control Taiwan is the Chinese Communist Party who does not represent the will of the Chinese people.  As they do not in Hong  Kong or any of the places the CCP has invaded under the stolen 'name of the Chinese People.' -
> *Anti-Beijing protesters march in Hong Kong over ‘suppression’*
> *http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/a...n/news-story/adf566da912374315432774015b5b58a*




What make me think that? 

History, both old and recent, as in, two weeks or so recent.

How did the Ukraine gov't got overthrown? Democratic uprising, courtesy of some 100 paid activists led by the CIA. Seriously, true story. 

Venezuela... Chavez was overthrown by a people's uprising, so we're told. He evil dictator was locked up for a day or two... then out of nowhere the Venezuelan people marches to the gates of prison where he was held [and about to be send to his Maker I'm sure]... and liberated him. Guest who was behind that one too?

With the current Iranian uprising... I'm sure the Mullahs and Iranian security/police state aren't all nice and sweat. I am definitely sure there are mass anger and general unhappiness etc. etc. BUT...

But people in such countries do not march in the street unless there is some sort of abnormal and heinous miscarriage of justice. You know, something really really bad that finally sparked the flame. 

12% unemployment isn't exactly something new or drastic. And not a reason to risk life and imprison when the gov't just negotiated an end to sanctions and more opportunities for trades and foreign investments. 

That is until Trump came along and start to rescind the agreement for no legal reason whatsoever.

That and Haley calling Iran bad names, sponsor of terrorism; Even Saudi Arabia, a country that's bombing the crap out of Yemen and literally targets utilities and infrastructure to intentionally starve and sicken the Yemeni into submission... even they got involved in calling Iran bad names, sponsor of terrorism and evil empire stuff.

So the best case scenario here is that certain unhappy and democratic faction in Iran see these unhappiness the West and the Saudis are showing as signs that if you rise up, we'll send in a few advisors follow by a few battalions we parked a few miles away. For freedom, and peace, of course.

But that would be too convenient.

Plans for taking out Iran is not new. It was pushed on, at least as far as I know, Bush Jr and Obama. 

Israel has always wanted to take out Iran. It's their only serious rival in the region - others are either allies and colonies of the US so no worries there. Iran is the only state, maybe Turkey is slowly turning away from the US.. i mean, that failed coup didn't help with relations.

Bush and Obama have some ideas of the consequences of taking on Iran. They can be taken, but at a high cost. Once taken, might not be easy to hold. I mean, they can hardly hold Iraq and Afghanistan and those countries were ruled by total bastards no one likes.

Trump haven't a clue about geopolitics. His son-in-law (and senior advisor, seriously, wtf?)... is literally a family friend to Bibi the Yahoo. King Bibi don't just want Jerusalem, he want freedom to act at will anywhere in the region. Can't do it without going nuclear, so Uncle Sam will have to help on this one, again.

----------------

As to China and Taiwan... I heard a lecture where the professor was saying that in all but name, Communist China had already taken over Taiwan. 

The comrades have been doing this economically. They buy and invest, permit Taiwanese ruling/corporate elite to invest in China etc. etc. So the economic and financial link is very strong. So strong it's practically a takeover already.

But to keep the status quo, it's hush hush and Uncle Sam can still sell arms to The Republic of China all they want. Just don't send their warships there.

------

Again, I'm not saying the iranian gov't, or the Chinese gov't, are nice and sweet. I certainly wouldn't want to live under such pricks. Just you know, it's their country and people should stay out of it. 

If anything, it's so the world wouldn't go nuclear on all of us.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> China will fail. People have a taste for freedom after being "woke" by the internet.
> The west has already infected Asia.




The West has infected Asia long before the Internet. At least 200 years before I reckon.

You and I might know how corrupt and oppressive the Chinese gov't is... I'm not sure the average Chinese know, or if they know, care much for a change in the system. 

And if they know and care enough to demand change, it will have to be done internally. Not through foreign intervention. The average Chinese would rather die than work with a foreign power to help their country out. 

Can't blame them for that. I mean, the Europeans and the Japanese kinda taught them a lesson or two about playing with strangers and inviting them in.


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> it's their country and people should stay out of it.



*No it's not the Chinese Communist Parties country.* *It's the Chinese peoples country *and all the world should make sure that the Chinese People get it back and Southern Mongolia, East Turkestan and Tibet are *freed from the horrors of the most evil regime that man has ever stooped to.  Which is of course the psychopathic Chinese Communist Party who are the proven enemy of all humanity and have full intentions and are implementing the 100 year plan for their psychopathic rule over all the world.*


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> No it's not the Chinese Communist Parties country.  It's the Chinese peoples country and all the world should make sure that the Chinese People get it back and Southern Mongolia, East Turkestan and Tibet are freed from the horrors of the most evil regime that man has ever stooped to.




I agree with you. And i did mean it is the people's country, not any regime or party or gov't.

But it is because it's the people's country that they must themselves rise up to change. 

To invite any foreign powers in and chances are 100% they will not only replace one group of bastards for another group, they'll also lose their country and its resources too. 

An Asian example is a Nguyen lord of Vietnam in the 18th century. He was defeated by the Trinh [from memory]... they sent his armies, what's left of it, packing to the Spratleys. 

The French came calling... need a few rifles, a few soldiers and advisors there Mr Nguyen?

Vietnam got split into 3 colonies, Laos and Cambodia complete French IndoChina.

So yea, the people will need to rise up and retake their country, if that's what they want. And you'd be surprised how the comrades are more afraid of the people than the let on.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> They weren't starving all those years the US and "international community" sanctioned them?
> 
> I'm not defending the Iranian, I guess we'd call them "regime"... But come on, even I know these protests aren't grassroots anger bubbling up.
> 
> The guys around Trump have been dusting off the old Bush Jr's plan for rid the world of this Axis of Evil. Jr didn't go along with it because Afghanistan and Iraq became a bit of a drain on the budget.
> 
> Now that proper accounting, deficit and wars in the Middle East are as common as drones over the Arabian skies, the war hawks in Washington and Tel Aviv might have a chance to sacrifice other people's sons and daughters for good to triumph over evil.
> 
> The Comrades in Beijing and Moscow are definitely laughing their azzes off. Well, maybe not Moscow, Beijing for sure though.
> 
> You big man, you go fight more evil Arabs and Persians. We yellow man, we take over all of the seas we like. Then we retake Taiwan, then control all access to our Middle Kingdom. Then we push right up to your military bases in the Pacific. Then you either risk nuclear war where we all die, or learn to live with us  dominating any region of the world we like.




You need to come up to speed on this one lu. The easing of sanctions didn't translate into easing the misery of the population, but more gilding of the islamic clerical lily.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Can't blame them for that. I mean, the Europeans and the Japanese kinda taught them a lesson or two about playing with strangers and inviting them in.




I thought the Chinese invented and learned everything before dinosaurs walked he earth? Don't tell me that the Chinese twist the truth, heavens who wouldathunkit!


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> You need to come up to speed on this one lu. The easing of sanctions didn't translate into easing the misery of the population, but more gilding of the islamic clerical lily.




Yes, Iran is a theocracy so it's not an ideal civil society run by honourable and incorruptible men like the US or Australia. You know, men who thought of nothing but how best to serve the public.

But from historical patterns of genuine popular uprising, the oppressed usually need some abnormally bad tragedy or national outrage to spark a riot. Trump's guys at the CIA ought to know that.

Just look at recent riots in, I don't know, the US of A. One too many black kids gets shot for being black... I mean that's normal but it happen to be caught on camera. We getting the idea right?


As for the current protests/uprising in Iran....
Israel PM and other lover of democracy thought it's a great idea. Trump is obviously supporting the people because, you know, being a man of the people. Niki Haley also supports it, in the press anyway... and why not, she recently did a big Colin-Powell speech about Iran. This time with a proper Iranian "missile" for the backdrop. None of that weak WMD in a vile you shake around business.

I think the idea was for her to then turn around and lift the rusted shell up. Sling it towards Tehran. But the lady has too much class and her bs is more then enough to drive the point about evil terrorist supporting regimes daring to think it somehow have the right to invade and interfere with other country's national defense. Don't they know that that's bad, you can't do that (unless you're us)?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> The West has infected Asia long before the Internet. At least 200 years before I reckon.
> 
> You and I might know how corrupt and oppressive the Chinese gov't is... I'm not sure the average Chinese know, or if they know, care much for a change in the system.
> 
> And if they know and care enough to demand change, it will have to be done internally. Not through foreign intervention. The average Chinese would rather die than work with a foreign power to help their country out.
> 
> Can't blame them for that. I mean, the Europeans and the Japanese kinda taught them a lesson or two about playing with strangers and inviting them in.



China censors the internet for a reason. Easiest way to infect minds these days is through social media and a few persuasive plants.
Throw a bit of CIA money at it and away you go.
Chinese in the big cities are on par with shallowness and greed of US or Aus. No one wants to lose their comfortable positions. 
And its the guys with money that will scream loudest and fund dissent in the name of "democracy". Thats always been the case though.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I thought the Chinese invented and learned everything before dinosaurs walked he earth? Don't tell me that the Chinese twist the truth, heavens who wouldathunkit!




They were resting on their laurels. After 20,000 years of inventing and creating the world, the people thought it's alright to relax and smoke a bit.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> China censors the internet for a reason. Easiest way to infect minds these days is through social media and a few persuasive plants.
> Throw a bit of CIA money at it and away you go.
> Chinese in the big cities are on par with shallowness and greed of US or Aus. No one wants to lose their comfortable positions.
> And its the guys with money that will scream loudest and fund dissent in the name of "democracy". Thats always been the case though.




All states controls the flow of information among their plebs. China just have a few senior comrades owning the operations and a few extra-power to kickazz and dragging popular activists to places no one dared asked its name.

Rich guys, anywhere, don't want democracy. Why on Earth would they want that? Any power is fine as long as it give them money, power and constant job offers  - both for themselves and their relatives.

I mean, Li Kar Shing of Hong Kong... He's deep in Red since the transfer of HK. Same with action movie star Jakie Chan etc. etc.

I read the presses before the transfer. These rich guys all have foreign citizenships and said themselves they'll get out the moment it looks bad. 'til then, you gotta make a living. Hence, Chan is now some bigwig with a seat in the People's Congress or something.

Then there's US tech giants falling over themselves to get into China. Bill Gates agrees to literally handing over his Windows OS source codes for "inspection" in the hope of it being permitted on Chinese computers.

Same with Google and mySpace, hahaha... Google and FaceBook didn't do too well after years of being on their knees in Beijing. I think the comrades have their own Chinese version so no need for these there.

Turning to, say, the greatest democracy in the world.... Google, Facebook etc. were recently brought in front of Congress to ask why they didn't do enough to censor "russian" meddling in American democracy and other undesirable speeches.

Then there's the rescinding of Net Neutrality... a literal two-tiered system where if you're a big corporation with deep pockets [and proper corporate welfare creds], you can deliver your info faster then other hippies who's too small, too poor and too out of line.

Reading the Rise and Rise of Kerry Packer. It's an eye opener reading how Australian PMs and their advisors "listen", then do, what the Goana want. Well that's not fair, our great people's representatives don't always do as they're told, they sometimes think for themselves and ask "what would Kerry want", then go ahead and does it.

But yes, at least we get to talk about it and not disappear. So that's a plus.


----------



## moXJO

Democracy in its current form is the illusion of freedom. But it turns huge amounts of money.

I'm not talking about the uber rich. It's all the guys who are just getting some where. The new money that are restrained by current govt. And there is a lot more of them then the old guard.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Yes, Iran is a theocracy so it's not an ideal civil society run by honourable and incorruptible men like the US or Australia. You know, men who thought of nothing but how best to serve the public.




We are not talking about Australia or any other non related subject. The issue is Iran and the uprisings over hunger and lack of amenity.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> They were resting on their laurels. After 20,000 years of inventing and creating the world, the people thought it's alright to relax and smoke a bit.




Opium perhaps?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Opium perhaps?




The best opium money can buy.

Good thing for the Chinese the enlightened British fought two wars with them to stop them from using the terrible drug. Oh wait...


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> We are not talking about Australia or any other non related subject. The issue is Iran and the uprisings over hunger and lack of amenity.




For sure. There's nothing worst than starving the entire country. Hence certain alliance of the willing put sanction on the country for over 30 years just to show how much they care.

I mean, they even care for democracy and the lives of Persians even though the people revolted against the Shah that was put in place once Operation Ajax removed that annoying democratically elected president who want more oil revenue for "the people". Taking from BP, how low can you get. 

I could do this all day.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> For sure. There's nothing worst than starving the entire country. Hence certain alliance of the willing put sanction on the country for over 30 years just to show how much they care.
> 
> I mean, they even care for democracy and the lives of Persians even though the people revolted against the Shah that was put in place once Operation Ajax removed that annoying democratically elected president who want more oil revenue for "the people". Taking from BP, how low can you get.
> 
> I could do this all day.





Which is why Iranians are drawn to western countries like bees to honey.... they know their leaders are incapable of discriminating between good government and repressive religious obedience.


----------



## Tisme

Tisme said:


> Which is why Iranians are drawn to western countries like bees to honey.... they know their leaders are incapable of discriminating between good government and repressive religious obedience.




I should also remind you of the foundation of modern (anglo) democracy and separation of powers:  "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Matthew and Mark said so.


----------



## notting




----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I should also remind you of the foundation of modern (anglo) democracy and separation of powers:  "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Matthew and Mark said so.




So you're saying that some 1600 years after Jesus suggests the separation of power, the Christian world finally decided to kinda, sorta follow?

Didn't Jesus also said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter daddy's kingdom?

And isn't "greed is good", "all for ourselves and screw everyone else" a couple of Western classics?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Which is why Iranians are drawn to western countries like bees to honey.... they know their leaders are incapable of discriminating between good government and repressive religious obedience.




I thought more than a handful of Western politician and "journalist" reckon Iranian refugees are just welfare seekers, not freedom lover? 

Seriously though, of course Iran is oppressive and way too religious for most people's taste. But that's kinda better than the freedom and liberty being endured by the Iraqis and Afghanis, the Syrians etc. etc.


----------



## notting

I think the 'camel through the eye of a needle,' is a far more brilliant and far reaching classic than the other two (which were more like comedy.)
But hey, almost all of the billionaires in China are  in the Chinese Communist Party so Deng Xiaoping's slogan, "To get _rich is glorious_." would seem to be much closer to the Chinese hearts than a Western thing. Especially if it means at the expense of the people you dictate over.


----------



## Tink

Well bring Trump and his wife to Melbourne.

As I said, imv, he is another Reagan.

----------------------
_
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/what-does-the-alt-right-want.33644/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/_


----------



## Tisme

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...sconduct-before-election-day-report-says.html



> *Hillary Clinton backer paid $500G to fund women accusing Trump of sexual misconduct before Election Day, report says*
> By Robert Gearty | Fox News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image captured Hillary Clinton holdings hands with close friend and Esprit Clothing founder Susie Tompkins Buell.  (Associated Press)
> 
> One of Hillary Clinton’s wealthy pals paid $500,000 in an unsuccessful effort to fund women willing to accuse President Trump of sexual misconduct before the 2016 election, The New York Times reported Sunday.
> 
> Susie Tompkins Buell, the founder of Esprit Clothing and a major Clinton campaign donor for many years, gave the money to celebrity lawyer Lisa Bloom who was working with a number of Trump accusers at the time, according to the paper’s bombshell report.
> 
> Bloom solicited donors by saying she was working with women who might “find the courage to speak out” against Trump if the donors would provide funds for security, relocation and possibly a “safe house,” the paper reported.
> 
> 
> Former Clinton nemesis turned Clinton operative David Brock also donated $200,000 to the effort through a nonprofit group he founded, the paper reported in an article entitled, “Partisans, Wielding Money, Begin Seeking to Exploit Harassment Claims.”
> 
> Bloom told the Times that the effort was unproductive. One woman requested $2 million then decided not to come forward. Nor did any other women.
> 
> Bloom said she refunded most of the cash, keeping only some funds for out-of-pocket expenses accrued while working to vet and prepare cases.
> 
> The lawyer told the paper she did not communicate with Clinton or her campaign “on any of this.”
> 
> She also maintained that she represented only clients whose stories she had corroborated and disputed the premise that she offered money to coax clients to come forward, the paper reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “It doesn’t cost anything to publicly air allegations,” Bloom said. “Security and relocation are expensive and were sorely needed in a case of this magnitude, in a country filled with so much anger, hate and violence.”
> 
> The Times article said it learned of Buell and Brock's connection to Bloom from two Democrats familiar with the financial arrangements who also said Bloom’s law firm kept the money from Brock's nonprofit group but refunded the $500,000 that Buell contributed.
> 
> Brock declined comment, according to the paper.
> 
> Clinton campaign representatives said they were unaware of his work with Bloom.
> 
> Buell would not comment on the financial arrangement, according to the Times.
> 
> Still, she claimed she was frustrated that Trump had escaped the repercussions that have befallen many other powerful men accused of similar misconduct.
> 
> The Times article expanded on a report in The Hill two weeks ago that said Bloom worked with campaign donors and tabloid media outlets during the final months of the presidential election to arrange compensation for the alleged Trump victims and a commission for herself, offering to sell their stories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> *Tomi Lahren: Why are we apologizing to Hillary Clinton?*
> In one case Bloom reportedly arranged for a donor to pay off one Trump accuser’s mortgage and attempted to score a six-figure payout for another woman.
> 
> The woman with the mortgage ultimately declined to come forward after being offiered $750,000, The Hill reported.
> 
> The paper reported reviewing one email exchange between one woman and Bloom that suggested political action committees supporting Hillary Clinton were solicited, without naming which ones.
> 
> Bloom, who is the daughter of famous attorney Gloria Allred and, like her mother, specializes in representing women in sexual harassment cases, worked for four women who were considering accusing Trump. Two went public, and two declined.


----------



## basilio

* Trump Tower meeting with Russians 'treasonous', Bannon says in explosive book *

Former White House strategist quoted in Fire and Fury, by Michael Wolff
Bannon: ‘They’re going to crack Don Junior like an egg on national TV



Steve Bannon exits an elevator in the lobby of Trump Tower on 11 November 2016 in New York City. Other Trump campaign officials met with Russians there in June 2016. Photograph: Drew Angerer/Getty Images
David Smith in Washington

 
@smithinamerica

Thu 4 Jan ‘18 03.32 AEDT   First published on Thu 4 Jan ‘18 00.07 AEDT


*Shares*
95k

Donald Trump’s former chief strategist Steve Bannon has described the Trump Tower meeting between the president’s son and a group of Russians during the 2016 election campaign as “treasonous” and “unpatriotic”, according to an explosive new book seen by the Guardian.

Bannon, speaking to author Michael Wolff, warned that the investigation into alleged collusion with the Kremlin will focus on money laundering and predicted: “They’re going to crack Don Junior like an egg on national TV.”

Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House, reportedly based on more than 200 interviews with the president, his inner circle and players in and around the administration, is one of the most eagerly awaited political books of the year. In it, Wolff lifts the lid on a White House lurching from crisis to crisis amid internecine warfare, with even some of Trump’s closest allies expressing contempt for him.

Bannon, who was chief executive of the Trump campaign in its final three months, then White House chief strategist for seven months before returning to the rightwing Breitbart News, is a central figure in the nasty, cutthroat drama, quoted extensively, often in salty language.

* 'Idiot': Murdoch mocked Trump after phone call on immigration, book claims *
Read more
He is particularly scathing about a June 2016 meeting involving Trump’s son Donald Jr, son-in-law Jared Kushner, then campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower in New York. A trusted intermediary had promised documents that would “incriminate” rival Hillary Clinton but instead of alerting the FBI to a potential assault on American democracy by a foreign power, Trump Jr replied in an email: “I love it.”

*The meeting was revealed by the New York Times in July last year, prompting Trump Jr to say no consequential material was produced. Soon after, Wolff writes, Bannon remarked mockingly: “The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor – with no lawyers. They didn’t have any lawyers.


“Even if you thought that this was not treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad ****, and I happen to think it’s all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately.”

........Bannon also speculated that Trump Jr had involved his father in the meeting. “The chance that Don Jr did not walk these jumos up to his father’s office on the twenty-sixth floor is zero.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/03/donald-trump-russia-steve-bannon-michael-wolff*


----------



## Logique

notting said:


>



Outstanding, a stark message, but entertainingly delivered


----------



## wayneL

I wonder who the paid propagandist in this thread is?


----------



## Tisme

wayneL said:


> I wonder who the paid propagandist in this thread is?




That's gotta rattle a tree or two.


----------



## Logique

I think the term is "social media influencer".  
I suspect they're in the Climate Hysteria thread too.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> I think the term is "social media influencer".
> I suspect they're in the Climate Hysteria thread too.



The paid guys are News Corp.


----------



## basilio

Does anyone here want to make on comment on the upcoming book by Michale Wolff which details the the actions in/around the Trump administration ? 

Or is it to toxic to even think about ?


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Does anyone here want to make on comment on the upcoming book by Michale Wolff which details the the actions in/around the Trump administration ?
> 
> Or is it to toxic to even think about ?



Is he a paid shill too?


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> The paid guys are News Corp.



Yeah?

I see most propaganda quotes the Grauniad. Whether that is in exchange for filthy lucre,  we'll probably never know. But if it looks,  walks and quacks like a duck....


----------



## wayneL

BTW, most probably know I was in an orange booker think tank when I was in the UK,  my best mate was media director fir the then party leader,  I kinda know how this works


----------



## basilio

So sorry Wayne.  Just remembered that you can't read anything if it's in The Guardian.
Lets find a source you can read with comfort.

*Book: Steve Bannon Calls Kushner, Manafort, Don Jr. Trump Tower Meeting with Russians ‘Treasonous’*








The Associated Press

by Breitbart News3 Jan 201814888

*Former Trump Chief Strategist Steve Bannon describes Don Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort’s infamous Trump Tower meeting with Russians during the 2016 campaign as “unpatriotic” and “treasonous,” according to a new book by Michael Wolff called Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House.*

*http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-jr-trump-tower-meeting-russians-treasonous/*


----------



## wayneL

It's not the article,  it's the body of work Komrade.

Dude, we can all read our various news sources.  You'd have to be asleep under a rock not to have seen this particular story.

But again, that's not the point. 

PS - nice tacit admission there bro.


----------



## basilio

You don't like the body of work Wayne ?   Bit smelly is it mate ? Does it stink of corruption, stupidity incompetance?  Perhaps you want to say its all fake news.  That none of it ever happened and that anyway the people voted for Trump and that's all that counts.

But for the sake of the current investigations lets see how this observation goes down.


_[Bannon] is particularly scathing about a June 2016 meeting involving Trump’s son Donald Jr, son-in-law Jared Kushner, then campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower in New York. A trusted intermediary had promised documents that would “incriminate” rival Hillary Clinton but instead of alerting the FBI to a potential assault on American democracy by a foreign power, Trump Jr replied in an email: “I love it.”


The meeting was revealed by the New York Times in July last year, prompting Trump Jr to say no consequential material was produced. Soon after, Wolff writes, Bannon remarked mockingly: “The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor – with no lawyers. They didn’t have any lawyers.


“Even if you thought that this was not treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad xhit, and I happen to think it’s all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately.”


Bannon went on, Wolff writes, to say that if any such meeting had to take place, it should have been set up “in a Holiday Inn in Manchester, New Hampshire, with your lawyers who meet with these people”. Any information, he said, could then be “dump[ed] … down to Breitbart or something like that, or maybe some other more legitimate publication”.


Bannon added: “You never see it, you never know it, because you don’t need to … But that’s the brain trust that they had.”_

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-jr-trump-tower-meeting-russians-treasonous/


----------



## notting

basilio said:


> Steve Bannon Calls Kushner, Manafort, Don Jr. Trump Tower Meeting with Russians ‘Treasonous’




Well since Bannon was party to it and supportive at the time and subsequently, he should be the first to be arrested.  This is a written confession.

None of them seriously stand for anything there just bunch of ego maniacs without a cause.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Well bring Trump and his wife to Melbourne.
> 
> As I said, imv, he is another Reagan.
> 
> ----------------------
> _
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/what-does-the-alt-right-want.33644/
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/_




Why insult Reagan like that? 

The Gipper was a far better actor delivering his speeches much more convincingly than The Donald. All his speeches were delivered very.... very presidentially. 

None of the hand milking a mouse's tit gesture; none of the heavy breathing; and he actually switch between teleprompters without you noticing he figured there's two of them. 

But gotta give it to Trump, if he and his family aren't in prison by the end of his term, they'll be filthy rich after this season of the White House though.


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> I think the 'camel through the eye of a needle,' is a far more brilliant and far reaching classic than the other two (which were more like comedy.)
> But hey, almost all of the billionaires in China are  in the Chinese Communist Party so Deng Xiaoping's slogan, "To get _rich is glorious_." would seem to be much closer to the Chinese hearts than a Western thing. Especially if it means at the expense of the people you dictate over.




Getting rich is alright. Getting greedy is a bit different though. 
That's not to say the Chinese, or the comrades in Beijing, aren't greedy. All humans are greedy... the elite of the world are just a lot better at it.

Deng's move to open the Chinese market up was a clear sign that the Comrades, like all gov't, fear their plebs more than they'd want to admit. I think Deng said to his comrades that if China keep going the way Mao wanted... you know, closed up, don't trust bourgeois engineers, metallurgist or dam builders... the comrades will soon have to fly away to America with their billions or something.

The peasants were starving and highly unemployed. Without foreign investment and a bit of capitalism there'll be revolt and uprising. That's why they're investing hundreds of billions a year in infrastructure work, building empty cities... Now with the new silk road, they're buying foreign assets and sending the Chinese offshore to work on them. Pretty clever.

Same with the comrades in Hanoi, not the clever bits... their "Doi Moi" (Change) initiatives in the 90s lifted the country. But they shut it down soon after fearing revolt from too much knowledge and capital but not enough proper control and military police


----------



## notting

Not doubting their cunning.  
What the Chinese don't understand, however, is that humans will never be overcome by the denial of human rights or basic freedoms.  
You can bully small nations and weaklings but not the entire human race!  
This is their undoing.  
Building a society on fear is the weakest of foundations.  
As soon as they no longer fear you, the entire infrastructure that holds it together and keeps the apparent order will shatter into dust, no matter how big and powerful it looked at the time.  
A Chinese Wall


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> Not doubting their cunning.
> What the Chinese don't understand, however, is that humans will never be overcome by the denial of human rights or basic freedoms.
> You can bully small nations and weaklings but not the entire human race!
> This is their undoing.
> Building a society on fear is the weakest of foundations.
> As soon as they no longer fear you, the entire infrastructure that holds it together and keeps the apparent order will shatter into dust, no matter how big and powerful it looked at the time.
> A Chinese Wall




Yea, if the comrades set up a system that is less corrupt and more open, the country would be more equal and the people a whole lot wealthier. If that were to happen, China will rule the world... if nothing it's just by virtue of the numbers. 

But as my cousin Deng Xiaoping said, some will get rich first while others will get there later (a lot, a whole lot, later, if at all).

So yea, with most of the riches belonging to the very top, Communist China is on shaky ground. The coming property bust, or increased unemployment with the added debt they've been racking up... might lead to some fireworks. 

I think that's why Beijing changed that one-child policy recently. They're hoping more Chinese will mean more economic productivity and internal consumerism insulating the economy from international disruption. That and them islands and new colonies need a few permanent military outposts and colonialists to man them.

Seems the comrades, like pretty much all other idiots with too much power, think that the country needs the rich and the elite (like themselves) to make it great. I guess when you have that much money and power, you'd start to believe that rather than believe an old Chinese saying that the ship of state is held up by the people. Just as water hold up the ship, it too can overturn it.

Hard to believe that when you see dirty, poor and landless peasants. How can they compare to comrades wearing $20,000 solid gold grandpa glasses.


----------



## notting

There is a subtle point you missed.  It's the dust that sits between the bricks, it's built with fear, corruption and loathing from the people.  The structure is faulty and it will fail.
You can't groom it into something more open and palatable when the foundations are rotten to the core.
They still can't take down the picture of Mao or blow up the tomb, even though they understand how he destroyed the country and sent it into the very poverty and misery they now claim to be raising it out of whilst blaming the colonialists.
!


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> You don't like the body of work Wayne ?   Bit smelly is it mate ? Does it stink of corruption, stupidity incompetance?  Perhaps you want to say its all fake news.  That none of it ever happened and that anyway the people voted for Trump and that's all that counts.
> 
> But for the sake of the current investigations lets see how this observation goes down.
> 
> 
> _[Bannon] is particularly scathing about a June 2016 meeting involving Trump’s son Donald Jr, son-in-law Jared Kushner, then campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower in New York. A trusted intermediary had promised documents that would “incriminate” rival Hillary Clinton but instead of alerting the FBI to a potential assault on American democracy by a foreign power, Trump Jr replied in an email: “I love it.”
> 
> 
> The meeting was revealed by the New York Times in July last year, prompting Trump Jr to say no consequential material was produced. Soon after, Wolff writes, Bannon remarked mockingly: “The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor – with no lawyers. They didn’t have any lawyers.
> 
> 
> “Even if you thought that this was not treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad xhit, and I happen to think it’s all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately.”
> 
> 
> Bannon went on, Wolff writes, to say that if any such meeting had to take place, it should have been set up “in a Holiday Inn in Manchester, New Hampshire, with your lawyers who meet with these people”. Any information, he said, could then be “dump[ed] … down to Breitbart or something like that, or maybe some other more legitimate publication”.
> 
> 
> Bannon added: “You never see it, you never know it, because you don’t need to … But that’s the brain trust that they had.”_
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-jr-trump-tower-meeting-russians-treasonous/



Oh boy! Do you deliberately miss the point by a hemisphere? 

S'pose you got a job to do, gotta put food on the table for the baby Komrades eh?


----------



## IFocus

I personally only believe whats on Fox Friends / Hannity and they only tell the truth and report relevance nothing else every thing else is fake bias news and trash

BTW only issue is Hillary is a crook


----------



## SirRumpole

IFocus said:


> I personally only believe whats on Fox Friends / Hannity and they only tell the truth and report relevance nothing else every thing else is fake bias news and trash
> 
> BTW only issue is Hillary is a crook




...


----------



## basilio

notting said:


> Well since Bannon was party to it and supportive at the time and subsequently, he should be the first to be arrested.  This is a written confession.
> 
> None of them seriously stand for anything there just bunch of ego maniacs without a cause.




I don't think Bannon was party to the Russian connection. The comments he makes about not having lawyers at the meeting suggests he could see how fraught the process would be/look. But who knows.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Oh boy! Do you deliberately miss the point by a hemisphere?
> 
> S'pose you got a job to do, gotta put food on the table for the baby Komrades eh?




Really Wayne ?  I miss the point that you are so blinkered you are up and proud of your refusal to read anything in The Guardian ? That your response to the book by Michael Wolff is say he is another paid schill ? To steadfastly refuse to acknowedge what a truly awful and dangerous President Donald Trump is proving to be ?

And finally to say that anyone who points to the lies, bullying, incompetance, and illegal practices of the Trump administaion is just a propagandist. Wayne you make Fox news look like a paragon of moderation.


----------



## wayneL

No, yer still in the wrong hemisphere bas, sorry.


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## Tink

As I mentioned Luutzu, all three were shot, by the stalinists.

Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, and John Paul II all survived assassination attempts, and brought down Soviet Communism

https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/


*As the left surges back, Marxism’s bloody legacy is covered up*

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/as-the-left-surges-back-marxisms-bloody-legacy-is-covered-up/


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## basilio

If you ever wanted to be afraid of shooting war  nows the time to be  properly scared.

The Trump administration is been destroyed by the revelations of Michael Wolffs book. Donald is trying to stop publication.  (bit late now since we al know the best bits...)

Historically the the go to position when a President is facing a domestic crisis is starting a war to distract public opinion and pull on the "Flag of Freedom".  Wag the dog stuff.

Wait and see.

______________________________________________________________

*President Trump used to boast about having sex with his friends’ wives, devised calculated infidelity plots *



Tweet
email
X
Chris Sommerfeldt
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Updated: Wednesday, January 3, 2018, 7:16 PM

President Trump used to brag that sleeping with your friends' wives makes "life worth living," according to a new book.

A passage of author Michael Wolff's Washington tell-all, "Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House," describes how Trump would devise calculated plots to get the wives of his friends into bed, using jealousy and revenge as bait.

"In pursuing a friend's wife, he would try to persuade the wife that her husband was perhaps not what she thought," reads the passage, a copy of which was obtained by the Daily News.






*President Trump used to brag that sleeping with your friends' wives makes "life worth living."*
(Alex Wong/Getty Images)
Trump would then have his secretary ask the husband to stop by his office. Once the husband got in, Trump would subject him to "constant sexual banter" — all while having the wife listen in on the conversation via speakerphone.

Trump called Sally Yates ‘such a c--t,’ according to new book 

"Do you still like having sex with your wife? How often? You must have had a better f--k than your wife?" Trump would apparently ask friends. "Tell me about it. I have girls coming in from Los Angeles at three o'clock. We can go upstairs and have a great time. I promise."


*Donald Trump in the White House*
Wolff's book, which is set to be released next week, details the inner workings of a White House in chaos. Trump's former chief strategist Steve Bannon is extensively quoted in the book, oftentimes attacking the President's family and cabinet members.

In the passage about sexually-charged speakerphone incidents, a friend of Trump's describe him as having a lot in common with former President Bill Clinton.

"Except that Clinton had a respectable front and Trump did not," the passage states.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-boast-sex-friends-wives-article-1.3736071


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## Tisme

Tink said:


> As I mentioned Luutzu, all three were shot, by the stalinists.
> 
> Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, and John Paul II all survived assassination attempts, and brought down Soviet Communism
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/
> 
> 
> *As the left surges back, Marxism’s bloody legacy is covered up*
> 
> https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/as-the-left-surges-back-marxisms-bloody-legacy-is-covered-up/




I like the line : "resentment is always on the lookout for the theories that will justify it" ...... this is something I have never been afflicted with, but, it seems, all to common amongst those who can't handle what even Blind Freddy could see.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> If you ever wanted to be afraid of shooting war  nows the time to be  properly scared.
> 
> The Trump administration is been destroyed by the revelations of Michael Wolffs book. Donald is trying to stop publication.  (bit late now since we al know the best bits...)
> 
> Historically the the go to position when a President is facing a domestic crisis is starting a war to distract public opinion and pull on the "Flag of Freedom".  Wag the dog stuff.
> 
> Wait and see.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> 
> *President Trump used to boast about having sex with his friends’ wives, devised calculated infidelity plots *
> 
> 
> 
> Tweet
> email
> X
> Chris Sommerfeldt
> NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
> 
> Updated: Wednesday, January 3, 2018, 7:16 PM
> 
> President Trump used to brag that sleeping with your friends' wives makes "life worth living," according to a new book.
> 
> A passage of author Michael Wolff's Washington tell-all, "Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House," describes how Trump would devise calculated plots to get the wives of his friends into bed, using jealousy and revenge as bait.
> 
> "In pursuing a friend's wife, he would try to persuade the wife that her husband was perhaps not what she thought," reads the passage, a copy of which was obtained by the Daily News.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *President Trump used to brag that sleeping with your friends' wives makes "life worth living."*
> (Alex Wong/Getty Images)
> Trump would then have his secretary ask the husband to stop by his office. Once the husband got in, Trump would subject him to "constant sexual banter" — all while having the wife listen in on the conversation via speakerphone.
> 
> Trump called Sally Yates ‘such a c--t,’ according to new book
> 
> "Do you still like having sex with your wife? How often? You must have had a better f--k than your wife?" Trump would apparently ask friends. "Tell me about it. I have girls coming in from Los Angeles at three o'clock. We can go upstairs and have a great time. I promise."
> 
> 
> *Donald Trump in the White House*
> Wolff's book, which is set to be released next week, details the inner workings of a White House in chaos. Trump's former chief strategist Steve Bannon is extensively quoted in the book, oftentimes attacking the President's family and cabinet members.
> 
> In the passage about sexually-charged speakerphone incidents, a friend of Trump's describe him as having a lot in common with former President Bill Clinton.
> 
> "Except that Clinton had a respectable front and Trump did not," the passage states.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-boast-sex-friends-wives-article-1.3736071



Which does not go to his administrative ability,  Komrade. Lots of leaders are sexual deviants.

For interest,  what is your preferred alternative?


----------



## luutzu

Trump (and the Repubs) are planning to cut welfare.

After giving corporations and rich Americans $1.5Trillion in tax cuts, Trump and the Republicans are worried about fiscal irresponsibilities and undeserving people getting welfare from the government.

Hence, top priority for 2018 will be gutting food stamps, healthcare and lunches for kids, poor families, seniors and the sick. 

Good thing for the tax cuts though. I mean, the rich and corporate America will definitely use them taxcuts they got towards job creation and trickling down stuff. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...rograms-has-republicans-on-edge-idUSKBN1ET1AG


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Which does not go to his administrative ability,  Komrade. Lots of leaders are sexual deviants.
> 
> For interest,  what is your preferred alternative?




Donald Trump shouldn't be President for a 1001 reasons.  1002 if you count his (alleged) sexual deviance. 
Yep practically every President has had some irregularity in their personal lives. Whether its President Rosovelts mistress, President Kennedys myriad affairs and so on.

In my view what takes Donald Trumps behaviour into a totally different league is the alleged use of jealousy and revenge to get iunto bed with his friends wives.  I reckon that is pretty beathtaking.  It will be interesting to see what sort of fallout comes from that little bombshell.

The critical question is whether he goes Wag the Dog and tries to start a war to deflect attention. Certainly has plenty of opportunity.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> As I mentioned Luutzu, all three were shot, by the stalinists.
> 
> Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, and John Paul II all survived assassination attempts, and brought down Soviet Communism
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/
> 
> 
> *As the left surges back, Marxism’s bloody legacy is covered up*
> 
> https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/as-the-left-surges-back-marxisms-bloody-legacy-is-covered-up/




Just wondering how exactly did Reagan, Thatcher and the Pope "brought down Soviet Communism"?

How did they do it? Exactly?

My understanding, and I could be wrong 'cause it was never assigned reading... but I thought that the Soviets collapsed because it went bankrupt. Not because the mighty three fought it and won.

Sure, there's that theory of Reagan waging a bunch of "wars" and arms races, luring the Soviets into outdoing the US/West and so sent it broke. I'm sure sure how true that is though.

I thought it was just the usual imperial expansion, taking neighbouring countries, liberating barbarians (and capitalists), getting into quagmires etc., that eventually broke the treasury and call for a retreat.

I did know a bit about Mikhail Gorbachev agreeing with Bush Snr (the smart one) and James Baker to let East Germany uniting back with West Germany. All on the promise that the West will not move "an inch" east... which it immediately sets about doing and is now at the gates of Moscow. 

That, to me, sounds like the Soviets leadership recognising that endless wars and imperialism might not doing them any more favour. So they drew up their borders, try to keep what they've taken and call it a day. 

And here's the thing... The Soviets didn't go completely broke and become a poor laughing stock because of its godless Communism. It get to that state because "capitalism" happened to it under Yeltsin.

Yes, the drunk one who got democratically elected under new Russia after the Soviet collapse.

Under American advise, Yeltsin privatise practically all of Russia's industries. Hand it to a handful of friends who know friends who takes the cash out of Russia.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Donald Trump shouldn't be President for a 1001 reasons.  1002 if you count his (alleged) sexual deviance.
> Yep practically every President has had some irregularity in their personal lives. Whether its President Rosovelts mistress, President Kennedys myriad affairs and so on.
> 
> In my view what takes Donald Trumps behaviour into a totally different league is the alleged use of jealousy and revenge to get iunto bed with his friends wives.  I reckon that is pretty beathtaking.  It will be interesting to see what sort of fallout comes from that little bombshell.
> 
> The critical question is whether he goes Wag the Dog and tries to start a war to deflect attention. Certainly has plenty of opportunity.




Only p**sies starts A war. 

Trump's going to start a few wars.

Iran is under way. 

Parkistan just got its "aid" cut. That's going to make the buying and bribes... easier? I mean, China is buying Pakistan with both private cash and serious investment in ports and rails linking Pakistan into China... now Trump's bright idea is to just cut the cash they've been giving to buy some influence?

I guess we can't say there's a war with Palestine because it's not a country, not in the eyes of Trump and Bibi anyway.

Then there's North Korea; a few other wars under the radar in Africa.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Just wondering how exactly did Reagan, Thatcher and the Pope "brought down Soviet Communism"?
> 
> How did they do it? Exactly?
> 
> My understanding, and I could be wrong 'cause it was never assigned reading... but I thought that the Soviets collapsed because it went bankrupt. Not because the mighty three fought it and won.
> 
> Sure, there's that theory of Reagan waging a bunch of "wars" and arms races, luring the Soviets into outdoing the US/West and so sent it broke. I'm sure sure how true that is though.
> 
> I thought it was just the usual imperial expansion, taking neighbouring countries, liberating barbarians (and capitalists), getting into quagmires etc., that eventually broke the treasury and call for a retreat.
> 
> I did know a bit about Mikhail Gorbachev agreeing with Bush Snr (the smart one) and James Baker to let East Germany uniting back with West Germany. All on the promise that the West will not move "an inch" east... which it immediately sets about doing and is now at the gates of Moscow.
> 
> That, to me, sounds like the Soviets leadership recognising that endless wars and imperialism might not doing them any more favour. So they drew up their borders, try to keep what they've taken and call it a day.
> 
> And here's the thing... The Soviets didn't go completely broke and become a poor laughing stock because of its godless Communism. It get to that state because "capitalism" happened to it under Yeltsin.
> 
> Yes, the drunk one who got democratically elected under new Russia after the Soviet collapse.
> 
> Under American advise, Yeltsin privatise practically all of Russia's industries. Hand it to a handful of friends who know friends who takes the cash out of Russia.



Communism is what did them in. Gorbachev tried to modernise communism the people got a taste of freedom and bye bye communist oppression.
US was weakening their economy through santions and driving the oil price down. So yes it was all to do with Regan Thatcher etc.
Russia was an oppressive  regime and the people had enough.
Nothing to do with capitalism in Russia.


----------



## basilio

I'm wondering where Melania Trump stands in all these revelations - particularly where Donald  is jumping his friends wives by setting up the speaker phone scenarios.

I think she could just snap call up Mueller, say she had had enough and wants to turn. Whether she jumps first or we see the inevitable confession/confirmation from one of Don's friends waits to be seen.

I think there should be a (betting) book on this scenario. ..


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Communism is what did them in. Gorbachev tried to modernise communism the people got a taste of freedom and bye bye communist oppression.
> US was weakening their economy through santions and driving the oil price down. So yes it was all to do with Regan Thatcher etc.
> Russia was an oppressive  regime and the people had enough.
> Nothing to do with capitalism in Russia.




Can't be a simple "communism" ideology. 

I'm not saying Communism is the kind of gov't I'd want to live under, nor should anyone. But "communism", aka, socialism... that can't be the reason why the Soviets collapsed. 

For one, the Soviets survived WWII. WWI ended 1917, Lenin's Red took over the same year or so?
They managed to rebuild, or at least kept the country alive, from WWI and through WWII when the Nazi almost destroyed the entire place.

To come out of those wars... and came from what was an agrarian peasant society under the Czars... then became the sole competitor to the mighty Uncle Sam. In both geopolitics, science and military might... That's not really a failed system.

Maybe the Soviets plebs weren't as rich as the average Americans, not as free... But they weren't Third World level poverty either. Not saying it was paradise, but I think they also have State welfare, free healthcare too.

It was the Chicago Boys that advised Yeltsin to go full neocon.. .privatisation of state enterprises for next to nothing; ending social welfare programmes etc. Those policies did more harm to the Soviets than oil prices shrinking its economy.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I'm wondering where Melania Trump stands in all these revelations - particularly where Donald  is jumping his friends wives by setting up the speaker phone scenarios.
> 
> I think she could just snap call up Mueller, say she had had enough and wants to turn. Whether she jumps first or we see the inevitable confession/confirmation from one of Don's friends waits to be seen.
> 
> I think there should be a (betting) book on this scenario. ..




Melania is just happy to be there. Becoming a First Lady, having her son being the current favourite in line to take up most of Daddy's empire. This is now mor elikely as Trump, being president and is very old, is unlikely to be grabbing any more women... or file for divorce and have the new trophy's kid being the latest favourite to the throne.

That and the lady doesn't seem to care for Trump's womanising. Saves her the trouble of having to do him too often, just enough to keep the inheritance alive but that's it.


----------



## wayneL

You didn't answer my question bas, who, in your view, would be better qualified? 

Hillary?
Bernie? 
Xi Jinping?

Certainly more duplicitous, but as a result for the country,  give me a ####ing break!


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Can't be a simple "communism" ideology.
> 
> I'm not saying Communism is the kind of gov't I'd want to live under, nor should anyone. But "communism", aka, socialism... that can't be the reason why the Soviets collapsed.
> 
> For one, the Soviets survived WWII. WWI ended 1917, Lenin's Red took over the same year or so?
> They managed to rebuild, or at least kept the country alive, from WWI and through WWII when the Nazi almost destroyed the entire place.
> 
> To come out of those wars... and came from what was an agrarian peasant society under the Czars... then became the sole competitor to the mighty Uncle Sam. In both geopolitics, science and military might... That's not really a failed system.
> 
> Maybe the Soviets plebs weren't as rich as the average Americans, not as free... But they weren't Third World level poverty either. Not saying it was paradise, but I think they also have State welfare, free healthcare too.
> 
> It was the Chicago Boys that advised Yeltsin to go full neocon.. .privatisation of state enterprises for next to nothing; ending social welfare programmes etc. Those policies did more harm to the Soviets than oil prices shrinking its economy.



Restricted freedom and people getting restless.


----------



## basilio

*Donald Trump Didn’t Want to Be President*
One year ago: the plan to lose, and the administration’s shocked first days.

By  Michael Wolff 
Illustrations by  Jeffrey Smith 
Election Night: It “looked as if he had seen a ghost.”


 January 3, 2018 11:53 am

On the afternoon of November 8, 2016, Kellyanne Conway settled into her glass office at Trump Tower. Right up until the last weeks of the race, the campaign headquarters had remained a listless place. All that seemed to distinguish it from a corporate back office were a few posters with right-wing slogans.

Conway, the campaign’s manager, was in a remarkably buoyant mood, considering she was about to experience a resounding, if not cataclysmic, defeat. Donald Trump would lose the election — of this she was sure — but he would quite possibly hold the defeat to under six points. That was a substantial victory. As for the looming defeat itself, she shrugged it off: It was Reince Priebus’s fault, not hers.

She had spent a good part of the day calling friends and allies in the political world and blaming Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National Committee. Now she briefed some of the television producers and anchors whom she had been carefully courting since joining the Trump campaign — and with whom she had been actively interviewing in the last few weeks, hoping to land a permanent on-air job after the election.

Even though the numbers in a few key states had appeared to be changing to Trump’s advantage, neither Conway nor Trump himself nor his son-in-law, Jared Kushner — the effective head of the campaign — wavered in their certainty: Their unexpected adventure would soon be over. Not only would Trump _not _be president, almost everyone in the campaign agreed, he should probably not be. Conveniently, the former conviction meant nobody had to deal with the latter issue.

As the campaign came to an end, Trump himself was sanguine. His ultimate goal, after all, had never been to win. “I can be the most famous man in the world,” he had told his aide Sam Nunberg at the outset of the race. His longtime friend Roger Ailes, the former head of Fox News, liked to say that if you want a career in television, first run for president. Now Trump, encouraged by Ailes, was floating rumors about a Trump network. It was a great future. He would come out of this campaign, Trump assured Ailes, with a far more powerful brand and untold opportunities.

“This is bigger than I ever dreamed of,” he told Ailes a week before the election. “I don’t think about losing, because it isn’t losing. We’ve totally won.”

*From the start,* the leitmotif for Trump about his own campaign was how crappy it was, and how everybody involved in it was a loser. In August, when he was trailing Hillary Clinton by more than 12 points, he couldn’t conjure even a far-fetched scenario for achieving an electoral victory. He was baffled when the right-wing billionaire Robert Mercer, a Ted Cruz backer whom Trump barely knew, offered him an infusion of $5 million. When Mercer and his daughter Rebekah presented their plan to take over the campaign and install their lieutenants, Steve Bannon and Conway, Trump didn’t resist. He only expressed vast incomprehension about why anyone would want to do that. “This thing,” he told the Mercers, “is so f***ed up.”

Bannon, who became chief executive of Trump’s team in mid-August, called it “the broke-dick campaign.” Almost immediately, he saw that it was hampered by an even deeper structural flaw: The candidate who billed himself as a billionaire — ten times over — refused to invest his own money in it. Bannon told Kushner that, after the first debate in September, they would need another $50 million to cover them until Election Day.


“No way we’ll get 50 million unless we can guarantee him victory,” said a clear-eyed Kushner.

“Twenty-five million?” prodded Bannon.

“If we can say victory is more than likely.”

In the end, the best Trump would do is to loan the campaign $10 million, provided he got it back as soon as they could raise other money. Steve Mnuchin, the campaign’s finance chairman, came to collect the loan with the wire instructions ready to go so Trump couldn’t conveniently forget to send the money.

Most presidential candidates spend their entire careers, if not their lives from adolescence, preparing for the role. They rise up the ladder of elected offices, perfect a public face, and prepare themselves to win and to govern. The Trump calculation, quite a conscious one, was different. The candidate and his top lieutenants believed they could get all the benefits of _almost _becoming president without having to change their behavior or their worldview one whit. Almost everybody on the Trump team, in fact, came with the kind of messy conflicts bound to bite a president once he was in office. Michael Flynn, the retired general who served as Trump’s opening act at campaign rallies, had been told by his friends that it had not been a good idea to take $45,000 from the Russians for a speech. “Well, it would only be a problem if we won,” Flynn assured them.

Not only did Trump disregard the potential conflicts of his own business deals and real-estate holdings, he audaciously refused to release his tax returns. Why should he? Once he lost, Trump would be both insanely famous and a martyr to Crooked Hillary. His daughter Ivanka and son-in-law Jared would be international celebrities. Steve Bannon would become the de facto head of the tea-party movement. Kellyanne Conway would be a cable-news star. Melania Trump, who had been assured by her husband that he wouldn’t become president, could return to inconspicuously lunching. Losing would work out for everybody. Losing was winning.

Shortly after 8 p.m. on Election Night, when the unexpected trend — Trump might actually win — seemed confirmed, Don Jr. told a friend that his father, or DJT, as he calls him, looked as if he had seen a ghost. Melania was in tears — and not of joy.

There was, in the space of little more than an hour, in Steve Bannon’s not unamused observation, a befuddled Trump morphing into a disbelieving Trump and then into a horrified Trump. But still to come was the final transformation: Suddenly, Donald Trump became a man who believed that he deserved to be, and was wholly capable of being, the president of the United States.

-_______________________________________

Continue the read... It gets even more interesting.  I wonder how the Republicians can hold a majority of support for Trump when this book gets distributed and the fall out from the participants gathers steam.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/michael-wolff-fire-and-fury-book-donald-trump.html


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Just wondering how exactly did Reagan, Thatcher and the Pope "brought down Soviet Communism"?
> 
> .




They were certainly pivotal. The Catholics gave support to Lech Walesa's Solidarity movement in Poland which started the first real rebellion. Thatcher and Reagan recognised the USSR was in financial crisis and changed the policy of status quo to aggressive build up of weaponry in Europe putting the USSR on notice they were going to retaliate rather than defend if the nonsense continued.

The Falkland war was the tactical masterstroke that showed the USSR that Britain was no longer acquiescing. It resulted in the Argentine junta getting the heave ho and the beginning of democratisation of repressive regimes around the world.

Tear down that war Mr Gorbachev


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> They were certainly pivotal. The Catholics gave support to Lech Walesa's Solidarity movement in Poland which started the first real rebellion. Thatcher and Reagan recognised the USSR was in financial crisis and changed the policy of status quo to aggressive build up of weaponry in Europe putting the USSR on notice they were going to retaliate rather than defend if the nonsense continued.
> 
> The Falkland war was the tactical masterstroke that showed the USSR that Britain was no longer acquiescing. It resulted in the Argentine junta getting the heave ho and the beginning of democratisation of repressive regimes around the world.
> 
> Tear down that war Mr Gorbachev




You might be right, and that's because I don't know any better .... all until Argentina and the beginning of democratisation. That's 'cause I know Kissinger has been pretty busy mucking with South America. 

As we all know, lil Henry ain't your typical peacemaker. 

He's another example of there being no God. I mean, for the crap he reap on the world, he's living a very, very long time and seemingly loving it.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Restricted freedom and people getting restless.




I don't think people ever rise up because they wanted freedom or free speech and the likes.

I think my politico professor was right that practically all wars, civil wars I think the context was, were all over taxes. 

People can put up with oppression, I mean it's not like they have a choice in it. But one thing they can't put up with, not for too long, is starvation. I guess unless the gov't instantly starve them then the plebs can't do much about it (ala China's great famine where Mao's idiotic policies kill about 20 million Chinese; or Stalin's etc.)...

But in general, as long as people have enough food just to survive... be given some hope, and there's plenty of that with posters and slogans and movies... they'll just find other outlets and keep their heads down.

It's not a pleasant environment, but it's better than dying I guess. 

So revolution, in China or in other oppressive countries... wouldn't happen until things get real desperate and there are little to no hope to do otherwise but revolt. That or until a foreign liberator nudges a few well placed colonels a bit.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> I don't think people ever rise up because they wanted freedom or free speech and the likes.
> 
> I think my politico professor was right that practically all wars, civil wars I think the context was, were all over taxes.
> 
> People can put up with oppression, I mean it's not like they have a choice in it. But one thing they can't put up with, not for too long, is starvation. I guess unless the gov't instantly starve them then the plebs can't do much about it (ala China's great famine where Mao's idiotic policies kill about 20 million Chinese; or Stalin's etc.)...
> 
> But in general, as long as people have enough food just to survive... be given some hope, and there's plenty of that with posters and slogans and movies... they'll just find other outlets and keep their heads down.
> 
> It's not a pleasant environment, but it's better than dying I guess.
> 
> So revolution, in China or in other oppressive countries... wouldn't happen until things get real desperate and there are little to no hope to do otherwise but revolt. That or until a foreign liberator nudges a few well placed colonels a bit.



They were protesting  in Hong Kong over trains being changed and the people feeling like the mainland was impinging on their rights. Once people have a taste they will fight for it.

Russia had a taste- Hollywood, Rockbands and all the other media blasting the Russians on what they were missing out on. Wearing santions on top of overbearing corrupt officials and people had enough.
Russia today and the youth are fighting back. Iran,  China even Turkey tried. Give it time because the youth are going to  change the guard.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> They were protesting  in Hong Kong over trains being changed and the people feeling like the mainland was impinging on their rights. Once people have a taste they will fight for it.
> 
> Russia had a taste- Hollywood, Rockbands and all the other media blasting the Russians on what they were missing out on. Wearing santions on top of overbearing corrupt officials and people had enough.
> Russia today and the youth are fighting back. Iran,  China even Turkey tried. Give it time because the youth are going to  change the guard.




I saw a doco back around the time HK was to be handed back to China. One HK's wealthier residents, I think she was either a member of parliament or a well to do merchant... when asked what she thought of Governor's house in, Kowloon?, she said it's an eyesore and she wish it be knocked down. 

I was a kid who watch the stuff because it have interviews with HK movie stars, but I was shocked to hear it. What the heck does he mean an eyesore? British democracy? The system that make Hong Kong so rich while China is a basket case? 

Since then, whenever I travel to Asia.. .well, only a couple of countries in Asia... the people there doesn't care too much for "Western value" or "American democracy". They like the movies, copied the pop music, wouldn't mind the lifestyle they see and read about, but they like their country a whole lot more.

I don't mean that they like the comrades in charge, they hate those bastards as much as we like our politicians. So they put up with how things are and try to put food on the table and stay away from prison, or politicians and the police.

So there are discontent, but not enough that they'll risk their life or freedom for it. Keep up with existing policies and eventually it will... but what sparks it tend to be all the deadwoods having no other choice and the gov't is either facing bankruptcy from official corruption or foreign trade sanctions and can't pay the military proper. 

That's when the opportunist sons of low-level merchants whose parents are rich enough to send them to proper schooling but weren't rich enough to buy them a high enough position to suit their ambition.. they will then ride that wave of mass anger and overthrow the old guards. 

Youthful idealism... give people a wedding banquet, a kid or two and odd and end jobs... youth and ambition tend to end pretty quickly after that, for most people anyway. I mean, going from wanting to change the world to changing diapers takes about nine months.

----

The thing Communist China has going for it is that if the comrades economic policies fail to impress, or employ, the Chinese enough, they could just start a war or two and it'll unite the people behind them in a heartbeat. That's not to mention the kind of industrial demand and employment needed to serve the war effort... Keynesian economics with firepower right there.

Compare that to the US... It's a bit harder to unite the American people behind another war. Unless it's the kind of enemy that literally tore up Pearl Harbour, or Guam... I just don't see the average American lining up to enlist in the draft. 

That's the downside of engaging in endless wars and calling every idiot with a few rocket launchers the greatest threat to national security. People tend to not believe it so much after a dozen or two wars.

Then there's these kind of images:

American kids in water damaged, freezing schools their governor literally said enough money was given so no need for more funding.

If there's a war, it'll be these poor kids or their parents or elder siblings that will go to fight it.
I don't think their heart will be in it. 

And since no idiotic general would strike on American soil, the danger aren't really "real" enough to risk dying for rich man's wars.


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> I don't mean that they like the comrades in charge, they hate those bastards as much as we like our politicians. So they put up with how things are and try to put food on the table and stay away from prison, or politicians and the police.




Living like that stifles creativity and innovation, which is one of, if not the greatest strength, the US has.
The Chinese don't understand because they believe in force and fear.  That is a huge mistake, which is becoming even more prevalent as they put all the Big Brother tech on the streets so you can't even jay walk because the CCP have your walking style coded and know it's you from a distance.  So all the people become too scarred to do anything so that destroys productivity, innovation, motivation - the economy.



luutzu said:


> The thing Communist China has going for it is that if the comrades economic policies fail to impress, or employ, the Chinese enough, they could just start a war or two and it'll unite the people behind them in a heartbeat. That's not to mention the kind of industrial demand and employment needed to serve the war effort... Keynesian economics with firepower right there.




The argument about the American use of drones is far more applicable to this scenario!  Further the scenario is almost redundant because starting a war at this stage of the tense game is universally recognized as catastrophic.  So that's getting harder for the dictators who universally point to foreign influence as soon as their is any strife with the people. It's dictator play 101.
Look into to your own blindsided bias which is fogging your thinking like a Chomsky fairy tale posing as analysis.



luutzu said:


> Compare that to the US... It's a bit harder to unite the American people behind another war. Unless it's the kind of enemy that literally tore up Pearl Harbour, or Guam... I just don't see the average American lining up to enlist in the draft.




They no longer have to, it's all about innovation and tech, you know - that which thrives in freedom.
Most of the western recruits no longer even need to leave the shore or ship and they get paid better and are motivated.  They have something to fight for.
All the Chinese Communist slaves being dictated to and recruited against their will, most of them, have is their shadow dwelling psychopathic CCP multi billionaire oligarchs that use the people to enrich and protect themselves to the most extreme degree ever accomplished on earth ever!!



luutzu said:


> If there's a war, it'll be these poor kids or their parents or elder siblings that will go to fight it.
> I don't think their heart will be in it.



As above
You really gotta get out of your bubble.

There is a saying in Silicon Valley and it's not from Confucius -  'What ever is band in China is the next big thing!'


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> Living like that stifles creativity and innovation, which is one of, if not the greatest strength, the US has.
> The Chinese don't understand because they believe in force and fear.  That is a huge mistake, which is becoming even more prevalent as they put all the Big Brother tech on the streets so you can't even jay walk because the CCP have your walking style coded and know it's you from a distance.  So all the people become too scarred to do anything so that destroys productivity, innovation, motivation - the economy.




Just so you know, I don't take any side. I don't apologise for China or care at all for the comrades. I try to be neutral and poke fun at everyone. That's how you make friends 

America does have a lot going for it. I mean it controls its entire hemisphere. Skirted by two massive oceans and both north and south of its borders are practically its own backyard and punching bags. 

Well, maybe S.America have gotten rid of the yank some 20 years now, but freedom looks to be coming back South with a vengeance lately. Venezuela is about to be thoroughly screwed; Argentina is already in the pocket; Brazil is a few pallets of the mighty dollars from handing over everything to "free trade, American style". Mexico is long gone. But I digress.

America have a lot going its way, but the main thing, as you say, is the innovation and creativity. Property rights, patents, and the welcoming/luring of the world's intellects and capital. 

Trump's outright racism kinda turned off a lot of migrants. I mean, he turned them away, and also turn a lot of them off from coming on over. 

that and his recent policies, or his party's rather, to tax PhD's scholarship and research funding? WTF? How much tax revenue do you get from taxing PhD students grants? 

There's the defunding of public schools; high student debt on ever rising tuition fees. Job insecurity is ever increasing... that's not encouraging a lot of domestic scholarship either.

then there's the corporate takeover of schools and universities. Businessmen and big corporations funding research and programmes that suit their own, often social/political objective, rather than pursuit of science.

That's on the broad, general scale. I'm sure the US does have the world's best R&D in high tech this and that... mostly funded by the Pentagon and other national security agencies. 

And here I think is where China can catch up. Not so much by its own funding, but by simply copying it. 

The thing about Patent filings is it details everything about the design. That's fine as long as those who infringe it gets sued. Not so fine if a state can just copy it, put more cash into really understanding what it's about and they could leapfrog ahead. 

Sure, certain tech and know-how can't easily be copied. But that's where Chinese takeovers or majority ownership of foreign corporations comes in. 




notting said:


> The argument about the American use of drones is far more applicable to this scenario!  Further the scenario is almost redundant because starting a war at this stage of the tense game is universally recognized as catastrophic.  So that's getting harder for the dictators who universally point to foreign influence as soon as their is any strife with the people. It's dictator play 101.
> Look into to your own blindsided bias which is fogging your thinking like a Chomsky fairy tale posing as analysis.



Most sane countries and their warlords would only ever drone states that cannot, or will not, fight back. China won't be hitting the US... I'm sure the US won't be the first to strike China either.

I'm no China expert but beside maybe a misstep a couple of years ago when they too openly park an oil rig inside Vietnam's waters and publicly ramped its coast guards, thereby pizzing off a whole lot of Viets... beside that, they seem to have been pretty clever in winning friends and taking their stuff.

They have also been buying Pakistan and Trump just a few days ago refused to raised the bid price for the generals loyalty. So China is already winning that round.

In the South/East China Seas, they practically spent diddly and got themselves some of the world's riches waters. Not to mention further securing their territory and further projecting their military power.

It's going to take the US a lot of CIAs and democratic uprising to try and resolve that situation. If at all.

Would the US risk war with China over it? Unlikely. Not when the US just pushes Russia, China's major competitor and one that surrounds most of China's borders... Why in the world would the US want to upset Russia and drive them into China's arms like that is beyond my little head. But there it is.

So war/confrontation between China and US cannot be military, not directly. It must be strategic and proxied. So far, the US looks to be having a hard time winning this one.





notting said:


> They no longer have to, it's all about innovation and tech, you know - that which thrives in freedom.
> Most of the western recruits no longer even need to leave the shore or ship and they get paid better and are motivated.  They have something to fight for.
> All the Chinese Communist slaves being dictated to and recruited against their will, most of them, have is their shadow dwelling psychopathic CCP multi billionaire oligarchs that use the people to enrich and protect themselves to the most extreme degree ever accomplished on earth ever!!
> 
> 
> As above
> You really gotta get out of your bubble.
> 
> There is a saying in Silicon Valley and it's not from Confucius -  'What ever is band in China is the next big thing!'




The Soviets didn't have much freedom or liberty and they managed to beat the US into space. The Nazis didn't have freedom, morality or much else good going for it but they almost finished their research into rockets, jet engines etc. 

I'm sure Chinese drones are nowhere near those of the US/West... and maybe one day most of the US military will be drone-based with little manpower needed. But until then, they're spending about $1trillion a year, most of which are on military personnel the US have to pay very highly to bribe them to stay and join the endless wars.

I think that when it comes to war and the willingness to fight and die for your country. Money don't play too big a deal. 

So if, say, the comrades pick a fight with Japan. They'd have an easier time convincing their people to go fight and die over a few rocks the Japanese claim as theirs... easier than the US trying to convince American soldiers of the need to fight and possibly die to... protect Japan?


----------



## moXJO

The only Asians that are super patriotic are the Thais and Japanese. 
Chinese don't really give a stuff, business focused. Their govt does though.

Once US gets rid of trump we might see a clearer path. But China set all their strategy in motion years ago. Trump being in power just made it easier. Obama was asleep at the wheel.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The only Asians that are super patriotic are the Thais and Japanese.
> Chinese don't really give a stuff, business focused. Their govt does though.
> 
> Once US gets rid of trump we might see a clearer path. But China set all their strategy in motion years ago. Trump being in power just made it easier. Obama was asleep at the wheel.




I take it you haven't seen a Bruce Lee movie? Or a Jet Li? Or any given mainland-targeted movie? 

Those two didn't became national heroes because of their charisma. They did it by beating Japanese, all of them, single-handedly.

All the comrades need to say is "we going to war with Japan" and the masses will jump to it. Alright, maybe a bit exaggerated there, some will swim to Japan for the chance.

I think it's true that most Chinese, when overseas, don't give a stuff about joining politics. But the comrades at home though... seems the weigh of history and all them Confucian classics and 5 million years of history  do give them a sense of history and patriotism money can't buy. Well, maybe they're so well paid and cushioned already that the gwailos need to offer a much bigger envelope to make it interesting.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump will have a health check on Jan 12th and the the findings will be released to the public. I wonder what will be noted about the 100lbs he has put on in the past 12 months ?

President Donald Trump has scheduled a physical health exam for early next year at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center and will share the results with the public, the White House announced on Thursday, a day after Trump's slurred speech sparked concern about his health.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lts-health-concerns-white-house-a8098716.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/mi...his-be-doing-to-his-body/ar-BBGzs8t?li=AA51YE


----------



## basilio

A particularly interesting quote from the net.

From one gorilla to another ?? 

The tweet claims that Trump loves gorillas so much that the White House staff had to make a TV channel dedicated to the animals fighting each other.




(yes.  It's a joke..)


----------



## wayneL

You even work on Sunday bas?

How much is the pay? It certainly looks easier than farriery,  just keep quoting the Moonbat and his ilk.


----------



## basilio

Wayne was that you I saw in on theGorilla Tube ?  The  2 metre silver back  banging/belting the xhit out of his mate ? I understand  that was one of Don's favourite clips and given your performance I can well understand that.

Chjeers...


----------



## basilio

* Trump says he is a 'genius' as he defends mental fitness *

*David Nakamura and Karen Tumulty*
463 reading now

President Donald Trump lashed out at critics in defence of his mental fitness for office, calling himself a "very stable genius" in a tweetstorm of boasts.
He has offered to undertake a Mensa test to prove  just what a brilliant mind he has and why he is, so so right to be President of this great country.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...e-defends-mental-fitness-20180106-h0eiip.html


----------



## basilio

*Latest Breaking news from the American Heartland*

46,361,342 Twitter followers of  Donald Trump read his latest tweets exclaiming his "very stable genius" and total fitness to be Prez of this wonderful country.

Within seconds a firestorm of retweeting erupted on the net. The message was simple " Da Don is a stable genuiss! Damn man he's just like us !! Go Don.  Give em hell !!"

Authorities expect a spontaneous  10 million plus demonstation outside the White House of fellow " very stable genuiss" Trump supporters. The crowd is expected to be swelled with overseas contingents of the  unswervingly loyal, fervantly faithfull Doninastas.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump...e-defends-mental-fitness-20180106-h0eiip.html


----------



## basilio

You know Wayne.. Sunday is my free time.  I can just say what I really feel. Like ..be imaginative, creative not constrained by silly things like facts, reality the remote possibility that the person with his finger on the biggest nuclear button  in the world is  20 slices short of loaf of bread.

It's just far,  far more fun to recognise the inane brilliance of our Dear Don and the hero worship he inspires across the US and even to the far flung world of ASF.


----------



## wayneL

Well I can't say it isn't entertainment bas,  sort of.

Obsessives are kind of amusing.


----------



## basilio

The Real Stable Genius


----------



## cynic

basilio said:


> The Real Stable Genius
> View attachment 85538



You do realise that Mr Ed was a transvestite!


----------



## IFocus

I know Donald Trump is OK / stable/ a genius and the greatest because he tells us that he is.........like all the other great right wing leaders of the worlds did....Churchill, Regan etc.


----------



## Tink

Bravo Trump, Pro-LIFE, just like Reagan.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Bravo Trump, Pro-LIFE, just like Reagan.




"Pro" life? 

Why are pro-life people tend to be those who only "follow God's teaching" and ban abortion? But completely ignore the life of those after birth?

Banning abortion doesn't make it go away. There will be one reason or another for people to want to, or need to, have an abortion. Making it illegal, or difficult, mean that if they need to they'll go into the black market; or travel elsewhere... costing money they tend not to have; possibly suffering from unsafe practises. 

But it's worth it right? Life is important and precious and we should protect it. That's on top of Trump's mind, surely.

Did you know that he and his band of robinhoods will now turn their kindness towards cutting welfare and most of the healthcare provided to poor kids, pensioners, the poor and disabled etc. etc.?

How is that "pro life"?

And have you seen or read their speeches at the UN? Foreign policies? Or read about Trump opening up 90% of US waters to fossil fuel? 

Threatening "Fire and Fury" to take out an entire nation; laughing off a serious, and evident, scientific community advise on catastrophic climate change... yah, just a typical "pro life" a-hole.


----------



## Tink

Whats Melbourne now, the death cult?

Enter Melbourne at your own risk.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Whats Melbourne now, the death cult?
> 
> Enter Melbourne at your own risk.




People have always entered Melbourne at their own risk. Not as bad as The Gold Coast but not much behind the risk scale either.


----------



## Tink

There is NO pro LIFE in Melbourne.

As I said, the Greens are the death cult.

Bring Trump to Melbourne, and you see the reaction of what this state has become.


----------



## grah33

luutzu said:


> "Pro" life?
> 
> Why are pro-life people tend to be those who only "follow God's teaching" and ban abortion? But completely ignore the life of those after birth?
> 
> Banning abortion doesn't make it go away. There will be one reason or another for people to want to, or need to, have an abortion. Making it illegal, or difficult, mean that if they need to they'll go into the black market; or travel elsewhere... costing money they tend not to have; possibly suffering from unsafe practises.
> 
> But it's worth it right? Life is important and precious and we should protect it. That's on top of Trump's mind, surely.
> 
> Did you know that he and his band of robinhoods will now turn their kindness towards cutting welfare and most of the healthcare provided to poor kids, pensioners, the poor and disabled etc. etc.?
> 
> How is that "pro life"?
> 
> And have you seen or read their speeches at the UN? Foreign policies? Or read about Trump opening up 90% of US waters to fossil fuel?
> 
> Threatening "Fire and Fury" to take out an entire nation; laughing off a serious, and evident, scientific community advise on catastrophic climate change... yah, just a typical "pro life" a-hole.






Tink said:


> There is NO pro LIFE in Melbourne.
> 
> As I said, the Greens are the death cult.
> 
> Bring Trump to Melbourne, and you see the reaction of what this state has become.




I think differently Luutzu, because of the correlation effect. If unborn children are protected, then it more likely that a government would help other needy people as well, and execute justice for everyone. It's all connected. You know the saying, a rotten tree can't produce good fruit (applying it here).

Many of those left wing achievements are meaningless and dead.  There is always someone suffering on the other end.  More jobs, achieving higher interest rates, housing affordability, the cost of living, these are real improvements to worry about.


----------



## luutzu

grah33 said:


> I think differently Luutzu, because of the correlation effect. If unborn children are protected, then it more likely that a government would help other needy people as well, and execute justice for everyone. It's all connected. You know the saying, a rotten tree can't produce good fruit (applying it here).
> 
> Many of those left wing achievements are meaningless and dead.  There is always someone suffering on the other end.  More jobs, achieving higher interest rates, housing affordability, the cost of living, these are real improvements to worry about.




That would only be true if politicians like Trump and the Right-Wingers ban abortion to "save the children". 

They could very be banning abortion just to win the Christian/Religious votes. Giving appearance of love, care, kindness and other values. And in just about all cases, politicians play this abortion card for no other reason than just mere politics. 

You can see that in the kind of policies they set about doing - i.e. tax cuts for the rich; cutting any remaining semblance of social safety net, caring for the poor, the sick. 

One good example i read about was some douche god-fearing, family-value, "Christian" Republican in the US "encourage" his mistress to have an abortion. She got pizzed off and post his text to her on the internet.


----------



## grah33

luutzu said:


> That would only be true if politicians like Trump and the Right-Wingers ban abortion to "save the children".
> 
> They could very be banning abortion just to win the Christian/Religious votes. Giving appearance of love, care, kindness and other values. And in just about all cases, politicians play this abortion card for no other reason than just mere politics.
> 
> You can see that in the kind of policies they set about doing - i.e. tax cuts for the rich; cutting any remaining semblance of social safety net, caring for the poor, the sick.
> 
> One good example i read about was some douche god-fearing, family-value, "Christian" Republican in the US "encourage" his mistress to have an abortion. She got pizzed off and post his text to her on the internet.




My statement is fairly general.  On another note, you often point out religious hypocrites. Although people's lives speak to us, in debating it doesn't prove anything. So just keep that in mind.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> The Real Stable Genius
> View attachment 85538




Amelia the Grevy Zebra from Jungleland ?


----------



## luutzu

grah33 said:


> My statement is fairly general.  On another note, you often point out religious hypocrites. Although people's lives speak to us, in debating it doesn't prove anything. So just keep that in mind.




If people, and that include politicians, are hypocrites... then it does prove the point being made about politicians being self-serving hypocrites who "feel your pain", say a few pleasant words, then bend you over for a thorough screwing.

We can't claim that Trump is a kind and awesome man because he says so; can't say he (or any politician) care about life, liberty and whatever because they say they love gun and pray to Jesus.

When people love gun and Jesus at the same time... it's time to back away, real slow.


----------



## grah33

luutzu said:


> If people, and that include politicians, are hypocrites... then it does prove the point being made about politicians being self-serving hypocrites who "feel your pain", say a few pleasant words, then bend you over for a thorough screwing.
> 
> We can't claim that Trump is a kind and awesome man because he says so; can't say he (or any politician) care about life, liberty and whatever because they say they love gun and pray to Jesus.
> 
> When people love gun and Jesus at the same time... it's time to back away, real slow.




I meant more so for the other thread. As in, citing religious hypocrites doesn't disprove God's existence, that's all.


----------



## Caveman

Well it seems the Bannon abortion didn't go well for MR Trumpy.


----------



## sptrawler

grah33 said:


> just to add , you can't kick a people out of their land even if you don't think it's their land or it isn't their land after so much history has gone by.  It's against fairness and  charity




It sounds like history to me, the Indians in America, the Saxons in Britain, the Aborigines in Australia, history is littered with people who have been thrown out.

It just seems to be a recent thing, that it has become an issue the funny thing is, does anyone think it won't happen again.lol
Where is Yugoslavia? a lot of people were born with a belief, that it was their Country, what about them?
If a war happened and Australia was captured by a foreign Country, then what?
Currently we seem to live in a World, where we believe nothing bad happens, because we don't want it to and we say it can't.
History has proven, that bubble can be burst in an instant.


----------



## luutzu

grah33 said:


> I meant more so for the other thread. As in, citing religious hypocrites doesn't disprove God's existence, that's all.




True. 

But it does build a case against God being either non-existent or practically, might as well, be non-existent when Pope after Holy Christian Kings and Emperors... all the way down to local parish priests through the ages... are total nasty pieces of work, committing the most heinous of of crimes... all in the name of God... and yet God didn't strike them out of the blue just to show the world He doesn't approve.

I mean, if I was God I'd strike Genghis Khan to dust the moment he claim that I sent him out into the world to punish (whoever Genghis wanted to steal from). Or at least send him a cease and desist telegram.


----------



## grah33

sptrawler said:


> It sounds like history to me, the Indians in America, the Saxons in Britain, the Aborigines in Australia, history is littered with people who have been thrown out.
> 
> It just seems to be a recent thing, that it has become an issue the funny thing is, does anyone think it won't happen again.lol




Yeah of course, nations conquer other nations, and we should move on.  But when it's happening, you don't want to support the aggressive side (if you have empathy for suffering people, surely not).  A look at the conquering map in the Israel thread shows Israel gradually taking almost all of the land.  Unless you put people in ghettos or execute a genocide, I don't think you can get a result like that.  Also, it's a strange sort of alliance the US has with Israel...Although Trump has done some good things , this isn't good (imo ,  different from other conservatives here).  It will fuel hatred for the western nations.  I should add though that my knowledge about Palestine/Israel is scratchy enough.  As always , just some musings.


----------



## luutzu

grah33 said:


> Yeah of course, nations conquer other nations, and we should move on.  But when it's happening, you don't want to support the aggressive side (if you have empathy for suffering people, surely not).  A look at the conquering map in the Israel thread shows Israel gradually taking almost all of the land.  Unless you put people in ghettos or execute a genocide, I don't think you can get a result like that.  Also, it's a strange sort of alliance the US has with Israel...Although Trump has done some good things , this isn't good (imo ,  different from other conservatives here).  It will fuel hatred for the western nations.  I should add though that my knowledge about Palestine/Israel is scratchy enough.  As always , just some musings.




Recent interview with Norman Finkelstein. One of the most honest and knowledgeable guy on the subject.




I'd put money on Trump wanting that US/Mexican wall up largely because Israel's wall builders will get a big slice out of them $20B (low estimate).

Trump's son-in-law, and WH advisor, and Peace Envoy to the Middle East, is being asked why a company his family (and himself) own received $30M  last year from an Israeli firm.

He told them, what do you mean $30M? I thought it's more than that [jk].


----------



## SirRumpole

More fake news from Trump.

He said Obama made a "bad deal" on a new embassy in London when in fact it was G.W.Bush who made the decision.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...p-to-open-embassy-because-of-bad-deal/9325276


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> More fake news from Trump.
> 
> He said Obama made a "bad deal" on a new embassy in London when in fact it was G.W.Bush who made the decision.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...p-to-open-embassy-because-of-bad-deal/9325276




It looks like a pretty bad deal. I mean, for $1B+ and Obama/Jr. couldn't haggle a tonne or two of brass trimmings to the building? prfff.


----------



## Tisme

Trump has taken credit for Fiat/Chrysler ramping up it's factories with their $1bn latest investment in jobs and growth.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Trump has taken credit for Fiat/Chrysler ramping up it's factories with their $1bn latest investment in jobs and growth.




Everything Trump don't like, or is "a bad deal", was Obama's fault.

Everything that is "good" or to Trump's liking is obviously the Donald's awesomeness. 

Just don't ask him about the details or the evidence. Like all great men before him, he signs whatever is put in front of him then go golfing.


----------



## luutzu

A good interview on why certain countries became "shitholes" Trump don't like so much.

Dam it, he's one racist fark isn't he.


----------



## SirRumpole

The  polarisation of US politics under Trump.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-15/redneck-revolt-and-the-hard-lefts-call-to-arms/9303758


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> A good interview on why certain countries became "shitholes" Trump don't like so much.
> 
> Dam it, he's one racist fark isn't he.





Not so much racist, but xenophobic perhaps. He's the face of a revitalised USofA nationalism and potentially isolationism regime.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Not so much racist, but xenophobic perhaps. He's the face of a revitalised USofA nationalism and potentially isolationism regime.




That's what Pauline said too. Right after it was explained to her what's a xenophobe. 

I think Trump is more of an internationalist. He doesn't give a hoot about America. Anybody's money is good enough for people like him.

His talk of NAFTA being a bad deal for America; creating American jobs... all talk.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> A good interview on why certain countries became "shitholes" Trump don't like so much.
> 
> Dam it, he's one racist fark isn't he.




Describing a *geographical/political* entity as a shithole (or whatever)  has nothing whatever to do with racism.  this is why the left should just **** off with these offensive labels as they are rarely accurate...  completely way off the mark in the quoted text. 

Give yourself a smack, luu.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Describing a *geographical/political* entity as a shithole (or whatever)  has nothing whatever to do with racism.  this is why the left should just **** off with these offensive labels as they are rarely accurate...  completely way off the mark in the quoted text.




He could have got away with suggesting the comments were directed at the country and not the people if he hadn't followed up with "why can't we have people from Norway" (or similar words)


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> He could have got away with suggesting the comments were directed at the country and not the people if he hadn't followed up with "why can't we have people from Norway" (or similar words)




Or Australia.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Describing a *geographical/political* entity as a shithole (or whatever)  has nothing whatever to do with racism.  this is why the left should just **** off with these offensive labels as they are rarely accurate...  completely way off the mark in the quoted text.
> 
> Give yourself a smack, luu.




Ohhh... Trump was only describing the place, not the people. 

Seriously?


----------



## basilio

And in  which universe does it make political sense for the President of the most powerful country of earth to openly describe other countries as xhithouses ?


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> And in  which universe does it make political sense for the President of the most powerful country of earth to openly describe other countries as xhithouses ?




Trump has never been one for diplomacy we all know that, but some countries are, to put it politely, not very nice places to be in. Victoria has finally admitted that there is a problem with African gangs, and if we don't want that problem getting worse then one solution is to not take any more people from those countries.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Trump has never been one for diplomacy we all know that, but some countries are, to put it politely, not very nice places to be in. Victoria has finally admitted that there is a problem with African gangs, and if we don't want that problem getting worse then one solution is to not take any more people from those countries.




If their countries aren't screwed up, they wouldn't be seeking refuge elsewhere. They'd be, if they want to, apply for a skilled visa or pay $150,000 to fly over.

Would going into a country as a skilled migrant from a "good" country mean they won't break the law? 
Who knows, they might be political consultants and investment bankers. Know the kind of damage those low-life cause?

But sure, Trump is not being racist at all. He just call it how it is. 

First, people from poor and war torn countries seeking refuge do not equal gang criminals and drug dealers. 

So that's not calling it how it is. 

Second, count how many thousands of families Trump screwed over the years as a businessman who refused to pay his contractors. How many of his own investors he took money from then declare bankrupt.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> First, people from poor and war torn countries seeking refuge do not equal gang criminals and drug dealers.




Some of them do. Anyway we have a right to determine who comes to this country, imo it's too many at the moment. I see nothing wrong with taking those who are educated or with skills in preference to those who are not.


----------



## moXJO

Sudan is a $hithole and a host of other African  $hitbowls.  US was as well last time I was there as well. There is a reason why everyone tries to get out of dodge.


----------



## basilio

A Parable for Modern Times

THE FINANCIALLY EXPLOITATIVE PERSON AND THE ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED PERSON.

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

Once there was an economically advantaged person who dressed in expensive clothing. He wore fine leathers made from the carcasses of nonhumyn animals and furs from cruelly murdered voiceless victims. He didn’t care one bit that his fine clothing was tailored in Jerusalem sweatshops using pre-adult labour.

The person was a classic overachiever and an exploiter of the masses, have made a fortune in strip mining. He took egotistical pride in the fact that his wealth was gained at the expense of the underwaged.

He also feasted on cholesterol-gifted and fat-enhanced foods, caring nothing for his health. Every day , he dined _haute cuisine_ outside in his marbled courtyard while food-deprived persons looked on and salivated.

One of the persons watching was an economically disadvantaged person named Lazarus. He was marginalised not only by his lack of purchasing power (for he was indefinitely idled), but by incomplete health. From head to toe he was covered with herpeslike sores. Canine companions would come and lick these sores. Lazarus was so strength-challenged  that he couldn’t shoo the canine companions away, not that he would have harmed them.

Lazarus would have have gladly feasted on the crumbs that fell from the economically advantaged person’s table, even though such a practice would be considered unsanitary by the Surgeon Centurion.

It happened that both these persons expired on the same day. Lazarus became non-living as a result of an infection he received from one of the sore-licking canine companions. The economically advantaged person suffered a myocardial infarction brought on by cholesterol-challenged arteries.

Lazurus was carried away by emissaries of the Higher Power and taken up to Heaven. As you might guess, the financial exploiter went to the opposite abode of the afterlife.

The exploiter was excessively heated in Hell. With flames licking at his feet, he became liquid-deprived and wistfully remembered the fine wines(with sulphites) that he enjoyed while alive. He looked up and saw Ancestor Abraham, who was sitting in heaven with Lazarus next to him. Bouth were dining on heavenly foods similar to the cuisine the exploiter  feasted on while alive. (Once your non-living, you no longer need to read the nutritional labels on foods or worry about fat and cholesterol.)

The exploiter called out through parched lips, “Ancestor Abraham. Be mercy-abled topwrad me. Please allow Lazurus to dip the tip of his finger in his chilled chardonnay and cool my tongue. I am comfort-deprived down here.”

But Abraham, who believed that justice eclipsed mercy in this particular case, said, “ I can empathize with your situation. However you must remember that, as a bourgeois, you enjoyed the benefits of economic power during your lifetime. You wore fine clothing and ate whatever tickled your fancy. Even worse , you ignored marginalised and differently abled persons like Lazarus.


“Lazarus, on the other hand, was a victim of societal neglect. He was underhoused, food-deprived, and involuntarily leisured. Now he is empowered.”

The exploiter cried out in anger, “What’s wrong with this picture ?! I, a productive member of society, am being eternally punished and Lazarus, a bum, is being rewarded !”

Abraham  said, “ There is no need for verbal abuse or insensitivity. The real reason I can’t send Lazarus with some chilled wine for you is that there is a vast chasm between us that cannot be crossed.”

Why not ?” the exploiter asked.

“I don’t make up the rules governing the afterlife,” Abraham said “You’ll have to ask the higher power.”

“When can I speak to Him?” the exploiter pleaded.

“Probably never, since you just made an egregious gender _faux pas_ by referring to the Higher Power in masculine terms!  She has better things to do with Her time than listening to the whinings of a chauvinist like yourself.”

The exploiter/chauvinist was much abashed as he said, “Please, Ancestor Abraham, send Lazarus to the male siblings in my nuclear family and warn them that the Higher Power is female.”

Abraham said, “It’s too late for that. Their social conditioning has already biased them against thinking of the Divine as having feminine qualities. After all you did come from a  patriarchal society .”
The exploiter made one final plea: “But if someone who is non-living returns and tells the, they might at leastbecome gender-neutral in their image of the Higher Power.”

Abraham said sadly, “Gender-neutrality isn’t good enough. They must be cured of their masculism if they are to have any hope.”
_______________________________


----------



## Tisme

Fake news


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> Fake news




No.
From the book of Gaybraham.


----------



## basilio

Politically Correct Parables..

  ...  take them as you will.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Politically Correct Parables..
> 
> ...  take them as you will.



Straight down the $hitbowl.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Straight down the $hitbowl.




It wasn't  meant for you Wayne.  Your clearly humour and reason deprived.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> It wasn't  meant for you Wayne.  Your clearly humour and reason deprived.



*You're


----------



## Tink

If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/




We don't ask Muslims to justify themselves so why are Christians expected to be penitent and obedient to heathens who think their deity (e.g. Dawkins or any number of Big Girls Blouses) is omnipotent?


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> View attachment 85742




Who's the guy in a white dress with a saucer on his head?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Who's the guy in a white dress with a saucer on his head?




Don't know. But he look like he's been violated.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Sudan is a $hithole and a host of other African  $hitbowls.  US was as well last time I was there as well. There is a reason why everyone tries to get out of dodge.




And every man for himself a common theme....individual is more important than the whole.


----------



## basilio

Further background on the Stormy Daniels affair and pay off.

*Stormy’s Story*
*Did Donald Trump pay a pr0n star to keep quiet about an affair?*
By Jacob Weisberg

 Jan 16, 201810:10 AM

 Tweet 
 Share 
 Comment 
President Donald Trump and Stormy Daniels.
Photo illustration by Natalie Matthews-Ramo. Photos by Ethan Miller/Getty Images and Ron Sachs-Pool/Getty Images.
Not long after the 2016 Republican National Convention, I got a tip from a friend of mine. An old acquaintance of his in California was close to a woman in the adult-film industry who claimed to have had an affair with Donald Trump.

I reached my friend’s friend, who put me in touch with the actress, who is known as Stormy Daniels.

Daniels, whose given name is Stephanie Clifford, did indeed have a story about Trump, which she related to me in a series of phone conversations and text exchanges that took place between August and October of 2016.

Daniels told me she’d gone to Trump’s hotel room after meeting him at a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada in 2006. There they’d begun a sexual relationship, which continued for nearly a year. They’d met in New York and more than once in Los Angeles. In early 2007, Trump had invited her to a party to promote Trump Vodka, where she was photographed. He’d also invited her to his Miss USA pageant that year.

In our conversations, Daniels said she was holding back on the juiciest details, such as her ability to describe things about Trump that only someone who had seen him naked would know. She intimated that her view of his sexual skill was at odds with the remark attributed to Marla Maples.

She didn’t allege any kind of abuse, insisting she was not a victim. The worst Trump had done, she said, was break promises she’d never believed he would fulfill. She claimed he’d offered to buy her a condo in Tampa, Florida, and that he’d said he wanted to feature her as a contestant in an upcoming season of_ Celebrity Apprentice_. Daniels, who is far from naïve, says she did not take him seriously, but Trump had insisted his NBC contract let him do whatever he wanted on the show. Eventually, she said, he’d told her the network wouldn’t allow her on the air because of the objections of an executive’s wife. 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...my-daniels-to-keep-quiet-about-an-affair.html


----------



## basilio

Any one taking bets of how fat Donald Trump actually is ?

The *"Girther"* movement is taking off in the US  as anyone with half an eye sizes up Donald Trump against sportsman and other people of similar height and weight.

*Doubt over US President Donald Trump’s weight gives rise to Twitter ‘Girther’ movement*
AS doubt about Donald Trump’s true weight spreads after the release of his latest medical report, a Hollywood director is daring the US President to step on an independently-verified set of scales.

The Sun
News Corp Australia NetworkJanuary 18, 201810:04am

Video
Image
*Trump in 'excellent' health, could lose some weight: WH doctor*








A NEW social media “movement” demanding Donald Trump step on the scales live on TV is gaining momentum.

It comes after White House doctor Ronny Jackson found the US President to be 190 centimetres, weighing 107 kilograms, putting him in the overweight category, reports The Sun.

But hundreds of people tweeting with the #GirtherMovement hashtag are accusing the US president, 71, of lying about his weight.

The term is a play on the “birther” movement spawned by Mr Trump in 2011, when he repeatedly called for then-President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate. Mr Trump alleged he was born in Kenya and not eligible to lead the country.

Donald Trump lays a lot of golf but is apparently not fond of any other forms of exercise. Picture: AP/EEvan Vucci_Source:AP_

Calls for him to reveal his weight more transparently are being led by _Guardians of the Galaxy_ director James Gunn, who offered to cough up US$100,000 (A$140,000) to Mr Trump’s favourite charity if he complies.

*He said: “I will give 100 thousand dollars to Trump’s favourite charity if he will step on an accurate scale with an impartial medical professional, okayed by both of us. For real.”*


http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...t/news-story/5bd9731e81fbe10fa69c8747f28c8bd2


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Any one taking bets of how fat Donald Trump actually is ?
> 
> The *"Girther"* movement is taking off in the US  as anyone with half an eye sizes up Donald Trump against sportsman and other people of similar height and weight.
> 
> *Doubt over US President Donald Trump’s weight gives rise to Twitter ‘Girther’ movement*
> AS doubt about Donald Trump’s true weight spreads after the release of his latest medical report, a Hollywood director is daring the US President to step on an independently-verified set of scales.
> 
> The Sun
> News Corp Australia NetworkJanuary 18, 201810:04am
> 
> Video
> Image
> *Trump in 'excellent' health, could lose some weight: WH doctor*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A NEW social media “movement” demanding Donald Trump step on the scales live on TV is gaining momentum.
> 
> It comes after White House doctor Ronny Jackson found the US President to be 190 centimetres, weighing 107 kilograms, putting him in the overweight category, reports The Sun.
> 
> But hundreds of people tweeting with the #GirtherMovement hashtag are accusing the US president, 71, of lying about his weight.
> 
> The term is a play on the “birther” movement spawned by Mr Trump in 2011, when he repeatedly called for then-President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate. Mr Trump alleged he was born in Kenya and not eligible to lead the country.
> 
> Donald Trump lays a lot of golf but is apparently not fond of any other forms of exercise. Picture: AP/EEvan Vucci_Source:AP_
> 
> Calls for him to reveal his weight more transparently are being led by _Guardians of the Galaxy_ director James Gunn, who offered to cough up US$100,000 (A$140,000) to Mr Trump’s favourite charity if he complies.
> 
> *He said: “I will give 100 thousand dollars to Trump’s favourite charity if he will step on an accurate scale with an impartial medical professional, okayed by both of us. For real.”*
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...t/news-story/5bd9731e81fbe10fa69c8747f28c8bd2



How much do you get paid for posting this trivial nonsense?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> How much do you get paid for posting this trivial nonsense?




Untold millions...
But back to reality.  Looking at the current Prez weighing in at 239lbs and a host of other 6'3" dudes at around the same weight  (see the pictures) one wonders 
*"How does he do it ? "
*
Not a huge thing.  Just a question of how honest the President and his doctor are about simple  measurable things like height and weight.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Not a huge thing.  Just a question of how honest the President and his doctor are about simple  measurable things like height and weight.



Don't a lot of Women lie about that too?

Are you branching out from bullying tisme and fat shaming the mentally disabled now?

Oh Bas, how could you.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Don't a lot of Women lie about that too?
> 
> Are you branching out from bullying tisme and fat shaming the mentally disabled now?
> 
> Oh Bas, how could you.




Mojo are you feeling left out baby  !! So sorry. 
No - ones fat shaming the mentally disabled  Prez.  Just some of us don't think such a bald faced liar (_and thats one of his least worst traits ) _should be in the White House.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Mojo are you feeling left out baby  !! So sorry.
> No - ones fat shaming the mentally disabled  Prez.  Just some of us don't think such a bald faced liar (_and thats one of his least worst traits ) _should be in the White House.



Jeez bas, the White House would've been empty for years and years with no prospect of ever being filled.

Come on bas, it's you et al who are lying,  you're just conducting a slimy ideological war. We all know it, so lose the faux indignation that should best be reserved for your own Marxist vandals.


----------



## Tisme

Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.




You don't really hear much of this type of news. It's always "I sniffed Trumps undies and can confirm he farts in his pants" kind of stuff.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.




Stick with your bro Tisme.  You clearly share many characteristics   ie making up making whatever drivel  lifts your boat.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Stick with your bro Tisme.  You clearly share many characteristics   ie making up making whatever drivel  lifts your boat.




I'm so pleased you are endorsing Donald....see it doesn't hurt one bit.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> I'm so pleased you are endorsing Donald....see it doesn't hurt one bit.



 Endorsing him ?  Really ?  Time to wake up  and get out bed Tizzy. Your reaching bedrock.


----------



## moXJO

*U.S. filings for unemployment benefits plummeted to the lowest level in almost 45 years in a sign the job market will tighten further in 2018, Labor Department figures showed Thursday.*

I haven't really checked how the US economy has been traveling. Apparently it was the lowest black unemployment rate for decades as well.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.




The market tend to boom when you give them $1.5T to play with.

Employment and productivity also increase, for a while, when you force the sick and elderly into the workforce; free up enterprise to pay low wages while the costs of living increase. 

Yea, people will work double shifts, be happy to get any work just to pay the bills. 

That is until it all stop.


----------



## luutzu

Making nukes safer: Going for fun-size nuke tipped missiles.

Just pray that when Trump, or another idiot, in the WH don't push the red button when they ask "what does this do" when being briefed. 

Or that some genius figured that a warning broadcast mean automatic retaliation.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Endorsing him ?  Really ?  Time to wake up  and get out bed Tizzy. Your reaching bedrock.



Awesome irony, considering you've been wallowing down in the mantle, playing footsies with Lucifer himself...


----------



## Junior

Tisme said:


> Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.




News sourced from Donald Trump's twitter feed.  

I like how he's taking credit for share prices going up.....even though asset prices globally have been consistently rising for several years now.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Awesome irony, considering you've been wallowing down in the mantle, playing footsies with Lucifer himself...



Che ?  Where do you get this rubbish from ? Are you suffering from chronic bad dreams? 
Wake up mate.  This is dumb stuff.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Che ?  Where do you get this rubbish from ? Are you suffering from chronic bad dreams?
> Wake up mate.  This is dumb stuff.



Well, seeing as I followed your example.....


----------



## basilio

The questions about Donald Trumps alleged affair with Stormy Daniels and other pr0n stars arn't about his morals. There are no surprises about Donald Trumps sex life and his on tape acknowledgements let everyone know he chases any woman with a pulse.

*The concern is with the secrecy and the attempts to buy off any and all potential talkers with no disclosure agreements which in themself are disguised with different names! *The actions and the pay offs leave the President wide open to  potential blackmail from either domestic or foreign influences. Lets not  overlook the stories about how Donald Trump allegedly paid 2 Russian prostitutes to xiss on the bed that President Obama had slept on in Russia.

* What should scare us about Trump's pr0n star scandal *

*Molly Roberts*
235 reading now
It's not the sex, it's the secrecy.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...trumps-pr0n-star-scandal-20180119-h0lec6.html


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The market tend to boom when you give them $1.5T to play with.
> 
> Employment and productivity also increase, for a while, when you force the sick and elderly into the workforce; free up enterprise to pay low wages while the costs of living increase.
> 
> Yea, people will work double shifts, be happy to get any work just to pay the bills.
> 
> That is until it all stop.




It won't stop. China will have to contract its economy to cope with the retooling going on now in the USofA


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Endorsing him ?  Really ?  Time to wake up  and get out bed Tizzy. Your reaching bedrock.




Gee wiz, 99% of the time you are a posting cut 'n paste propaganda for marxist social control whilst  channeling Simple Jack, the other ~1% your trolling me for sh!t5 and giggles.

Next rare moment of sanity you are giving me praise for e.g. being Presidential material.

Alas you swing back into full retard mode and throw a bucket over me and anyone else who doesn't subscribe to your fractured version of reality.

Hard to keep up with the mania.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> *U.S. filings for unemployment benefits plummeted to the lowest level in almost 45 years in a sign the job market will tighten further in 2018, Labor Department figures showed Thursday.*
> 
> I haven't really checked how the US economy has been traveling. Apparently it was the lowest black unemployment rate for decades as well.




That's because now SSM has been passed in OZ black slavery has been eliminated and the world is all Unicorns, Bambi and Toadstool Houses.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> News sourced from Donald Trump's twitter feed.
> 
> I like how he's taking credit for share prices going up.....even though asset prices globally have been consistently rising for several years now.




Yes he's an opportunist for sure, much like most captains of industry.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Gee wiz, 99% of the time you are a posting cut 'n paste propaganda for marxist social control whilst  channeling Simple Jack, the other ~1% your trolling me for sh!t5 and giggles.
> 
> Next rare moment of sanity you are giving me praise for e.g. being Presidential material.
> 
> Alas you swing back into full retard mode and throw a bucket over me and anyone else who doesn't subscribe to your fractured version of reality.
> 
> Hard to keep up with the mania.




Hmm.  Where do we start

1) Yes Tisme I did compare you Donald Trump - as a person, *not a President.* After this Presidentacy I think the obersavation of "being Presidential"  will  look very suss. Only thing I'd say is I suspect you are are more articulate than the Donald.  (But that is a pretty low bar isn't it ?) But if you are happy to be compared to him .. go for it.

2) I really wonder about your "Marxist social control" comment. I do contribute to many threads.  To describe my contributions/comments as "Marxist social control" is just weird. I guess its simply a way to dismiss anything and everything I say as "extremist stuff that shouldn't be even considered". 
Why not actually discuss the content of what I say rather than attempt to poson the well as these comments attempt to do ?

3) What is "*Fractured reality*".  I have gone full bottle on your views on a number of occasions. The most recent was when you attempted to say that the women actors who had complained about the sexual assaults of Harvey Weinstien and others were basically just upset at men admiring their female form, clothes, perfume whatever. So after months of uproar and scores of detailed descriptions of how women have been relentlessly pressured and then blackballed by Harvey Weinstien *you offer a version of  reality that it was basically the womens fault. *I tore into you for that and there is no point repeating my comments. But in terms of "*fractured reality" *I suggest that took the cake.  
_(I thought it was also amusing how you offered a creatively fanciful view of  being surrounded by sirens trying to lure you onto the rocks. But lets consider that this was your particular sense of humour)_*
*
But back to Donald Trump. Do you have any thoughts on 
1) The automatic denial of Donald to numerous sexual escapades that almost no one actually believes *(the denials Tisme..*)
2) The risk to national security posed by these steadfast denials through the potential for blackmail.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Seems my apparent spiritual and ideological doppelganger, Don, has caused a severe problem with stock markets, employment, productivity, industry, investment, etc all rocketing skyward. Damn him for not listening to the snowflakes....things could be so much better if he had.




I wonder if he will take the credit for a massive budget deficit as well.


----------



## wayneL

Bas? 

Surely you are not denying your Marxism? 

(notwithstanding other double takes from your post)


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Bas?
> 
> Surely you are not denying your Marxism?



That's just so weird !? Why do you say I'm actually a "Marxist" ?  I can understand a generalist smear thats intended to  just wrap up everything I say as being "Marxist".  That saves actually having to discuss any topic. 

But do you actually believe I'm a card carrying or not card carrying Marxist ? Do you have any idea what that is supposed to mean ? 

For the record I have never had any formal or informal or even passing interest in  Marxism or Socialist Alliances or any other political group that works in those areas. 

But what does that fact change ? Whatever views I've expressed on various isssues still stand. I still think our current economic and political direction has great problems.  I'm still quite certain that the US choice of Donald Trump as President is a spectacular slow moving train wreck.

I suspect that in your eyes Wayne just having these views makes me a Marxist.


----------



## basilio

Just for interest here is another view of Donald Trump as President.

* How long will Republicans stay silent about Trump? *
Raúl M Grijalva
Too many Republicans in Washington support Trump and make excuses for him no matter how low he stoops

Fri 19 Jan 2018 01.23 AEDT   Last modified on Fri 19 Jan 2018 18.39 AEDT


*Shares*
1750
 
* Comments*
 1,066 



The president’s latest racist rant, offensive even in the context of his intentionally offensive tenure, has set a new low bar and made it impossible to take his apologists seriously. Those apologists need to make a choice. The time for politely avoiding the necessary conversation is over.

While I’m heartened by the fact that more people every day recognize the danger this administration poses to our country, I’m stunned and disappointed by the nonchalance of my Republican colleagues. Many of them recognize the very real dangers of Trump’s presidency. I can’t help but wonder when they plan to make their feelings known.

The reactions from Republican leadership to the president’s disgusting comments on several non-white countries – which, in a telling moment, he recently claimed not to have made – have ranged from silence to mild condemnation to full-throated support. By and large, they offer Trump deference with nothing expected in return.

Why? Because it’s the easiest way for them to implement their destructive agenda and silence any doubts about whether what they’re doing is politically sustainable – or legal.

Their hypocrisy is stunning. If the party demands “law and order”, why do Republicans not hold the president accountable? Why do they remain silent when he so openly flouts our norms? The disappointing truth is that congressional Republicans are more interested in their help-the-rich agenda than in the future of our democracy.

Donald Trump is their tool. They treat the harm his behavior does to our way of life and our long-term international credibility as no more than collateral damage.

Trump forced Republicans to choose between political convenience and their consciences

Trump and his Republican allies have dismantled our institutions, wiped out legal norms, and gutted federal agencies that protect the public interest. They have provided enormous corporations and super-rich individuals with more money and concentrated power in the hands of a privileged few. They are selling off our education system, drastically reducing public health support, eliminating protections for public lands and waters, and selling off the internet to the highest bidders in corporate America.

They seem to think this agenda is worth the daily racism, constant demeaning of other people, and ugly demands for love and obedience Trump issues from the White House. Responsible leaders don’t act this way. But Republicans have embraced this disreputable leadership style and called it “honest”.

The longer this continues, the more American people will suffer. We’re already seeing critical threats to programs like Medicaid and the Child Health Insurance Program that provide important healthcare for the poor, children and persons with disabilities. Millions of financially insecure Americans are being treated as expendable. Funding to support them is being called government waste.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/18/republicans-trump-silence-racism

*Well  guessed folks.*
*Just another card carrying Congressman from Arizona.*
*He is a Republican*


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> It won't stop. China will have to contract its economy to cope with the retooling going on now in the USofA




Manufacturing in the US is gone. Well, the kind that employ a lot of Americans anyway.

The high tech or localised labour/manufacturing jobs are getting automated pretty quickly. 

So what the average yank could hope for is some serious investment in their crumbling infrastructures. But then who's going to pay for it when there's wars all over the place and poor people's taxes goes to taxcuts for "job creators"? 

But US manufacturing might move to other places other then China though. Place the US want to buy alliance against China; or just cheaper; maybe even a bit more expensive as long as it takes the steam out of China's economy.

But the comrades got their new silk road and foreign investment into other people's infrastructures. That's where they'll send their excess workforce.


----------



## Tisme




----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


>





To be fair, Obama say it more politely though. And that's what matters.


----------



## Tink

In his first year President Trump has become the most pro-life president in the history of the United States.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## SirRumpole

Donald has achieved a shutdown of US government services.

Well done Don, you are doing a great job.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-20/us-government-in-shutdown-as-funding-deal-fails-senate/9345718


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if he will take the credit for a massive budget deficit as well.




I doubt it, his executive orders can be quashed by congress, so it's everyone else's fault and his glory


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> That's just so weird !? Why do you say I'm actually a "Marxist" ? .




I'm guessing you consider yourself a "social progressive", as if that's a good thing in the absence of any consideration the past had some redeeming features.

Everything about your posts is marxist. You are a warrior for every self ascribed victim out there, protector of the Greens faith, enemy of the entrepreneurial powerful, prone to gutter insults and base language, argumentative for the sake of argument, unimaginative plagiarism of other's misinformed and politically biased tripe, poor comprehension of what personal freedoms are and how they are being regimented into obedience.

You give at best tacit, at worst overt support for bullying, propaganda, pillorying, polarisation, isolation, sensationalism and outright lying for the "cause". Whatever it takes, whatever the casualties, the collateral damage to this nation, we must accept a global beige of sameness, that the king really is wearing clothes and we must be punished if we don't think like you.

Admonishment from you, given your tantrum displays holds no weight.


----------



## bellenuit

Tink said:


> In his first year President Trump has become the most pro-life president in the history of the United States.
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/




He may outwardly support the religious right, but surely, Tink, you have enough intelligence to see that he is just a fraud and will lie about anything. His personal life belies any suggestion that he is genuinely leading a moral crusade


----------



## Wysiwyg

I don't understand how he can trash talk and create friction between people without losing sleep. Anyone else in society would be beaten down and made to correct their wrong ways but he shows no regret and serves no penance. Wealthy people are immune to correction because they pay people off or hush them or terminate their employment should anyone be a threat. They have money = they have friends.


----------



## Wysiwyg

*Donald Trump is a psychopath, suffers psychosis and is an 'enormous present danger', says psychiatrist *
Former Harvard professor calls US President 'an extremely incapable, disordered, sick individual'


----------



## moXJO

How do we know he isn't targetting the right market to get him reelected? 

He won last election despite everyone saying he couldn't. All the idiot news from the Democrats (about Trump)  shows they didn't learn a thing.

They have elections for the upper house this year dont they? 
That's going to be the best gauge.


----------



## Tisme

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/16/inside-the-beltway-hostile-media-a-year-of-attacki/




> *POLL DU JOUR*
> 
> *• *91 percent of Americans say news organization slant their coverage to promote a certain point of view; 97 percent of Republicans, 91 percent of independents and 87 percent of Democrats agree.
> 
> *• *88 percent say the emergence of “fake news” is a threat to American democracy; 94 percent of Republicans, 88 percent of independents and 83 percent of Democrats agree.
> 
> *• *58 percent say it is “harder to be well-informed” now; 69 percent of Republicans, 61 percent of independents and 47 percent of Democrats agree.
> 
> *• *51 percent cannot identify an “objective news source”; 54 percent of Republicans, 56 percent of independents and 44 percent of Democrats agree.
> 
> *• *47 percent say there is so much news bias that is difficult to “sort out the facts”; 67 percent of Republicans, 51 percent of independents and 26 percent of Democrats agree.
> 
> Source: A Gallup/Knight Foundation survey of 19,196 U.S. adults conducted in September and released Tuesday.


----------



## Macquack

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing you consider yourself a "social progressive", as if that's a good thing in the absence of any consideration the past had some redeeming features.
> 
> Everything about your posts is marxist. You are a warrior for every self ascribed victim out there, protector of the Greens faith, enemy of the entrepreneurial powerful, prone to gutter insults and base language, argumentative for the sake of argument, unimaginative plagiarism of other's misinformed and politically biased tripe, poor comprehension of what personal freedoms are and how they are being regimented into obedience.
> 
> You give at best tacit, at worst overt support for bullying, propaganda, pillorying, polarisation, isolation, sensationalism and outright lying for the "cause". Whatever it takes, whatever the casualties, the collateral damage to this nation, we must accept a global beige of sameness, that the king really is wearing clothes and we must be punished if we don't think like you.
> 
> Admonishment from you, given your tantrum displays holds no weight.




Usual piece of long winded fluff with absolutely no substance whatsoever.


----------



## dutchie

Some of the women celebrating Donalds' inauguration.


----------



## Tisme

Macquack said:


> Usual piece of long winded fluff with absolutely no substance whatsoever.




Yes well seeing as you also have an historical axe to grind with me, I'll take your purile comment as gospel unbiased truth.

When are you several spiteful guys going to redeem your gonads from the girlyboy marxist pawn shop you loaned them to and  start behaving like the adult men your parents thought you would become?


----------



## Tink

Bellenuit, I am a conservative and PRO FAMILY.
PRO LIFE - PRO FAMILY.

FAITH
FAMILY
*TRUTH*
FREEDOM

_If we ever forget that we are ONE NATION UNDER GOD, then we will be a nation gone under._

-----------------------------------

_We are protecting the sanctity of life and the family as the foundation of our society_


----------



## DB008

Hmm, interesting....


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> Hmm, interesting....
> 
> 
> View attachment 85835​



Democrats want their immigration policy passed. They won't play ball until they are satisfied,  or the media turns on them.


----------



## DB008

Saw this quote:
"It's funny how those on the left think they're patriots, but in reality those they support, are supporting illegals and non-Americans over Americans and our military. They're delusional."



​


----------



## bellenuit

Tink said:


> Bellenuit, I am a conservative and PRO FAMILY.
> PRO LIFE - PRO FAMILY.




That is not what I asked. I asked if you thought he was genuine, not just pandering to the religious right.


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> That is not what I asked. I asked if you thought he was genuine, not just pandering to the religious right.




Like Cori Bernadi or Tony Abbott ?


----------



## Tink

Bellenuit, religious right in my view, is about taking responsibility, not mother government.
Unlike China, pro death, and their one child policy.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## bellenuit

Tink said:


> Bellenuit, religious right in my view, is about taking responsibility, not mother government.
> Unlike China, pro death, and their one child policy.
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/




But do you think he is genuine? Does his real life reflect someone who is pro-family?


----------



## PZ99

SirRumpole said:


> Like Cori Bernadi or Tony Abbott ?



No, I don't like either of them


----------



## SirRumpole

PZ99 said:


> No, I don't like either of them




Who does ?


----------



## crackajack2

The world is doomed. Who cares? Lets fly to Mars and f cuk that up lol


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Bellenuit, religious right in my view, is about taking responsibility, not mother government.
> Unlike China, pro death, and their one child policy.
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/




It's two child now - one for the folks, one for the state's coming war machines


----------



## wayneL

crackajack2 said:


> The world is doomed. Who cares? Lets fly to Mars and f cuk that up lol



My ship is well into production,  all welcome,  except Marxists and SJWs


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> My ship is well into production,  all welcome,  except Marxists and SJWs




Sharing your asset with all (except a few).. that's Marxist isn't it Sifu?


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Sharing your asset with all (except a few).. that's Marxist isn't it Sifu?




My guess it's for preservation of sanity.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Sharing your asset with all (except a few).. that's Marxist isn't it Sifu?



Marxism is sharing by force. 

Charity is sharing by choice.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> My guess it's for preservation of sanity.




So he's a Socialist?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Marxism is sharing by force.
> 
> Charity is sharing by choice.




Our tax dollars are pretty well shared among politician's wages and expense accounts. 
Then there's the roads and bridges we hardly ever used. The schools and parks we often can't afford to pay the parking fees.

Then there's the renter's taxes going towards their landlord's Negative Gearing and CGT...

Sharing is good, but those are a few examples of maybe we don't have much of a choice in the matter. And Australia is currently under the Libs, so you can't pin these on the Greens or Labor either.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Our tax dollars are pretty well shared among politician's wages and expense accounts.
> Then there's the roads and bridges we hardly ever used. The schools and parks we often can't afford to pay the parking fees.
> 
> Then there's the renter's taxes going towards their landlord's Negative Gearing and CGT...
> 
> Sharing is good, but those are a few examples of maybe we don't have much of a choice in the matter. And Australia is currently under the Libs, so you can't pin these on the Greens or Labor either.



You miss the point,  grasshopper. 

We are indeed a mixed economy with some aspects of socialism as you mention,  notwithstanding that I object to the more pork laden aspects of that. 

But,  offering a berth to Mars for reasonably like minded folks has absolutely zip to do with Marxism. 

You are drawing a long and very tenuous bow there.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> You miss the point,  grasshopper.
> 
> We are indeed a mixed economy with some aspects of socialism as you mention,  notwithstanding that I object to the more pork laden aspects of that.
> 
> But,  offering a berth to Mars for reasonably like minded folks has absolutely zip to do with Marxism.
> 
> You are drawing a long and very tenuous bow there.




Mars is not the place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you did...


----------



## PZ99

Mars is the only place where you can have Jenny Craig and Maccas in the same building.

Caring and sharing and all that paraphernalia...


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> So he's a Socialist?





Absolutely .... if you compare him to Colonel Charles de Laet Waldo Sibthorpe , but only just.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Mars is not the place to raise your kids
> In fact it's cold as hell
> And there's no one there to raise them if you did...




Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Absolutely .... if you compare him to Colonel Charles de Laet Waldo Sibthorpe , but only just.




I'd imagine that without wikipedia most of your good jokes would fall pretty flat.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I'd imagine that without wikipedia most of your good jokes would fall pretty flat.




Yeah, I am a tragic for old history, old novels, encyclopedia, etc, especially facts,  but I do very well at trivia nights because of it.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Yeah, I am a tragic for old history, old novels, encyclopedia, etc, especially facts,  but I do very well at trivia nights because of it.




I did alright at those. Just often got them wrong because I can't pronounce certain names without having heard it said first 

Zeus = Zee Us
Socrates = So crates. 

Our HS teacher didn't give me a mark for getting Zeus right, dam it! We both know who Ze Us is dude.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong




<reaches for protein pills and tinfoil helmet>


----------



## DB008

​


----------



## sptrawler

Great picture Iuutzu, sums it up perfectly, yet we in Australia are pushing harder and harder, to head down the same road. It seems to be helped along by the media though.

I find it weird, people in Australia are pushing for equality, yet I have found Australia the land of opportunity regardless of background.

I hope the change people are pushing for, is a change for the better, I personally can't see how it can be achieved.
I see a lot of reward for endeavour, in Australia, we seem to be trying to extend that to reward for missing out.


----------



## Tink

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/26/full-text-trump-davos-speech-transcript-370861

https://www.whitehouse.gov/


----------



## SirRumpole

Now here is a novel proposal, health insurance that doesn't make a profit.

Warren Buffett, JP Morgan and Amazon are starting a health care scheme aimed at reducing the cost of health care for their employees and the established health care companies don't like it a bit.

Go Warren !



> *Healthcare sunk by Buffett and co*
> Health stocks were hit hard after Amazon, JPMorgan and Berkshire Hathaway announced they would join forces to start a new healthcare company— to lower healthcare costs for their hundreds of thousands of US employees.
> 
> The industry titans said this venture will be "free from profit-making incentives and constraints" as they take on the inefficient and expensive American healthcare system.
> 
> "The ballooning costs of healthcare act as a hungry tapeworm on the American economy," said Warren Buffett, Berkshire Hathaway's chairman and CEO.
> 
> 
> 
> "Our group does not come to this problem with answers. But we also do not accept it as inevitable."
> 
> In a statement, Berkshire said the initial focus of the joint venture will be on "technology solutions" to bring about simplified and cheaper healthcare.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...amup-healthcare-dow-jones-wall-street/9377446


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Now here is a novel proposal, health insurance that doesn't make a profit.
> 
> Warren Buffett, JP Morgan and Amazon are starting a health care scheme aimed at reducing the cost of health care for their employees and the established health care companies don't like it a bit.
> 
> Go Warren !
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...amup-healthcare-dow-jones-wall-street/9377446




Those three aren't known for their non-profit gig though. Buffett is giving away most of his fortune but here he's running a business, not in the charity mode. The other two...

Did you know that Amazon would rather have an ambulance stand waiting outside their warehouse in case their employee faint... that rather than turn on the air conditioning to make the place more comfortable where people don't have to faint? Cost/Benefit. 

That and Amazon targets older/senior workers. Use psycho-babble but pay them diddly. And like Wal-Mart, they show their underpaid employees how to get food stamps and gov't welfare... all that even though their employees work full time, not paid enough to live. 

All these is to keep the costs of healthcare down as they themselves control it. So they keep the fund/premium in-house, negotiate better deals.

Does that mean they pass the savings on? Maybe a few bucks discount.

What's more scary would be employees' privacy. What if the company's doctors' record show this employee have a high chance of X, very expensive, illness?

They fired that's what.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Those three aren't known for their non-profit gig though. Buffett is giving away most of his fortune but here he's running a business, not in the charity mode. The other two...
> 
> Did you know that Amazon would rather have an ambulance stand waiting outside their warehouse in case their employee faint... that rather than turn on the air conditioning to make the place more comfortable where people don't have to faint? Cost/Benefit.
> 
> That and Amazon targets older/senior workers. Use psycho-babble but pay them diddly. And like Wal-Mart, they show their underpaid employees how to get food stamps and gov't welfare... all that even though their employees work full time, not paid enough to live.
> 
> All these is to keep the costs of healthcare down as they themselves control it. So they keep the fund/premium in-house, negotiate better deals.
> 
> Does that mean they pass the savings on? Maybe a few bucks discount.
> 
> What's more scary would be employees' privacy. What if the company's doctors' record show this employee have a high chance of X, very expensive, illness?
> 
> They fired that's what.




You're always so negative !


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> You're always so negative !




A realist 

Serious. I saw interviews with reporters going undercover with Amazon's workers. 

People in the warehouse often have to walk total of 16miles a day packaging and sorting etc. They get what's called scanner-syndrome where their fingers claws because they use the scanner/repetitive work too much. 

Their pay are bad, the hours long, and Jeff Bezos get to Twitter about giving him ideas on how to save the planet. 

Good thing is the employees get free pain medicine from the warehouse's cabinet.


----------



## DB008

Full FISA memo released



Significant parts:

"Furthermore, Deputy Director McCabe testified before the Committee in December 2017 that no surveillance warrant would have been sought from the FISC without the Steele dossier information."

Spying on political candidates to obtain opposition research, funded and aided by the US government


They got yahoo to print a story that was then used as corroborating evidence for another FISA renewal aka circular reporting

The BIG thing of the memo, essentially, is that Comey in the FBI, McCabe, Sally Yates and then Rosenstein in the DoJ, all knew 100% that the Steele dossier came from the DNC and was funded by the Hillary Clinton campaign as oppo research, but purposefully misled the FISA courts by not disclosing this information. They didn't just not disclose one time, but 4 different times: the initial, and the 3 subsequent re-authorizations.

Also, it is pretty bad because one of the "evidences" they presented to the FISA courts was Yahoo news article on Carter Page, but it turns out Fusion GPS was the one who fed Yahoo news that Carter Page article, meaning that they used the dossier, then had the Yahoo news article as a source corroborating the Dossier, except it was the dossier's author that gave the info to Yahoo News, thus Christopher Steel corroborated his own dossier, and that was used as evidence for FISA warrant. The damning part is that apparently the DoJ and FBI knew that Fusion GPS fed the story to Yahoo News, yet presented that to the FISA courts as an evidence corroborating the dossier anyway, deceiving the FISA courts.



If you put all the pieces together here's what you get. The DNC rigs the Democratic Primary Election against Bernie Sanders so Hilliary can win the nomination. Obama's administration starts to request surveillance on Trump, his family, his transition team, and anyone associated with him. Donna Brazil gives Hilliary the questions to a debate. The DNC pays Christopher Steele to come up with a smear dossier about Trump. The mainstream media releases a taped conversation about Trump talking about grabbing women parts. After all this Trump still wins the General Election. Obama orders an investigation into Russia meddling in our elections. Obama changes Executive Order 12333 to allow more agencies to have access to surveillance data. The Democratic Party comes up with a scandal that Trump Colluded with Russia to win the election with no evidence or proof. This wild claim is backed up by the mainstream media. Obama hold overs start unmasking Trump's transition team and staff members then release the classified information to the mainstream media. Why? Because the DNC and the Obama administration colluded with the intelligence community to thwart Trump's campaign efforts to get him elected president. All this Russia collusion is an attempt to cover up the fact that the Obama administration, the intelligence community, the DNC, along with the mainstream media used our nations surveillance as a political tool to try to get Hilliary elected President. This makes Watergate look like a kindergarten play. Let that sink in.......


----------



## SirRumpole

Has the Wall Street bubble burst ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nvestors-anxious-asx-reporting-season/9387374


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Has the Wall Street bubble burst ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nvestors-anxious-asx-reporting-season/9387374





Nah there will another $50bn of Oz taxpayer money funneled into Wall St to make even more USA millionaires when Turnbull gives the corporations a tax break.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump doesn't look so great now does he ?


*Dow Jones plunges 1,068 points, Wall Street bloodbath intensifies*

*http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-06/wall-street-bloodbath-dow-jones-falls-over-1000-points/9399268*


----------



## Junior

The sheer stupidity of claiming credit for rising sharemarkets still blows me away.  Shows complete lack of understanding of the factors which drive financial markets.  

How long until he attempts to manipulate the FED into maintaining low rates, in an attempt to push this bubble further?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Trump doesn't look so great now does he ?
> 
> 
> *Dow Jones plunges 1,068 points, Wall Street bloodbath intensifies*
> 
> *http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-06/wall-street-bloodbath-dow-jones-falls-over-1000-points/9399268*




It's not like investors haven't seen the rise in employment and wages, it's inevitable interest rates will rise and all those people who leveraged to buy shares have to dump. 4% isn't big bickies and the bargain buys should increase before close


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> 4% isn't big bickies




The biggest one day fall on record.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> The biggest one day fall on record.





not even close if you look at %


----------



## Tisme




----------



## SirRumpole

Well, we will see what happens from now on. When the US deficit balloons even more and interest rates rise we will see how good Trump's policies are.


----------



## PZ99

Timing is everything in this business. I'll bet they wished they waited to announce those tax cuts.


----------



## bellenuit

SirRumpole said:


> Trump doesn't look so great now does he ?
> 
> 
> *Dow Jones plunges 1,068 points, Wall Street bloodbath intensifies*
> 
> *http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-06/wall-street-bloodbath-dow-jones-falls-over-1000-points/9399268*




I am sure he will attribute it to the revelations in the Nunes memo and claim its the markets reacting to the knowledge that the FBI are out to get him.


----------



## Tink

_Peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation. 

Some are true and some are false. 
Some are old and some are new. 
There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone. 

Is there no such thing any longer as Due Process?

-- Donald Trump_

------------------

_https://www.whitehouse.gov/_


----------



## basilio

Tink said:


> _Peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation.
> 
> Some are true and some are false.
> Some are old and some are new.
> There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone.
> 
> Is there no such thing any longer as Due Process?
> 
> -- Donald Trump_
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 
> _https://www.whitehouse.gov/_





Very interesting observation.  In my view it should serve to solidify the 20 odd separate women who have posted allegations of sexual  misconduct against Donald Trump.

*Every one has been called a liar.  * Maybe it's time to have some "due process" and establish exactly how many women Donald Trump has assaulted - or are they all just liars.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Very interesting observation.  In my view it should serve to solidify the 20 odd separate women who have posted allegations of sexual  misconduct against Donald Trump.
> 
> *Every one has been called a liar.  * Maybe it's time to have some "due process" and establish exactly how many women Donald Trump has assaulted - or are they all just liars.




He has admitted himself that he's a serial abuser. His statement above is the height of hypocrisy. However it is a lot easier to make allegations than it is to prove them wrong, so there still has to be a presumption of innocence principle.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> _Peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation.
> 
> Some are true and some are false.
> Some are old and some are new.
> There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone.
> 
> Is there no such thing any longer as Due Process?
> 
> -- Donald Trump_
> 
> ------------------
> 
> _https://www.whitehouse.gov/_




Did you just quote Donald Trump as some sort of wisdom? 

Was that his response to that guy who "resigned" because his two ex-wives accused him of punching them?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Did you just quote Donald Trump as some sort of wisdom?
> 
> Was that his response to that guy who "resigned" because his two ex-wives accused him of punching them?



Does it make what he said any less true?


----------



## noirua

For heavens sake cheer up your Holiness. I've got loads of problems as President and I'm so happy,  and you've only got that Aussie Cardinal to be concerned about.  Still, he is a good business man and money is god these days.


----------



## Tink

Noirua, we are all entitled to our view.

Freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom
----------------------------------------

https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/no-american-choose-faith-law/

As I said to Basilio,

bring them to Melbourne, and you will see the stalinists/political terrorists that have hijacked our state.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6
----------------------------

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-trump-champion-religious-freedom/


----------



## basilio

Tink I really think you need to go further than a blind faith in the goodness of the Catholic Church and a repetition of simplistic and often inaccurate comments.

The Catholic Church has and can do many good things. But equally it has also been responsible for much misery and misuse of power. The recent Royal Commission has laid bare the horrors and deceit of the Church (and other institutions) re child sexual abuse.

For a bigger picture of the Catholic Churches place in Australia have a look at this investigation. When you read the whole story one realizes just how little accountability the Catholic Church has for the funds it takes from Governments and its  congregation.
Special investigation

* Catholic Inc. *
*What the Church is really worth *
An _Age_ investigation reveals for the first time the value of the Catholic Church’s wealth in Australia and raises serious questions about compensation payments to victims of child sex abuse.

https://www.theage.com.au/interactive/2018/catholic-inc-what-the-church-is-really-worth/


----------



## Tink

Basilio, you are entitled to your view, and being a part of the Marxists/Socialist Alliance.

How many did they murder?

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...hings-metaphysical.27938/page-140#post-972455

Maybe you should look into your own religion.

---------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-left.31648/

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/as-the-left-surges-back-marxisms-bloody-legacy-is-covered-up/


----------



## SirRumpole

Tink said:


> Basilio, you are entitled to your view, and being a part of the Marxists/Socialist Alliance.


----------



## Tink

Rumpole, as I have said, I am for PRIVATE and public.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tink said:


> Rumpole, as I have said, I am for PRIVATE and public.




Yes, that's fine, but anyone who criticises the Catholic church is a Marxist/Socialist ?

Paleeze.


----------



## Tink

As I said, freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Does it make what he said any less true?




For Trump, yes it's less true. 

He's accused by some 20 women of sexual harassment. Caught on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women and "they let you because you're famous". etc. etc.

His career seems to be going fine.

And if that quote was in relation to that other douche who beat his two ex-wives... It's quite dishonest and f up to be implying that the guy's career ended because of allegations.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> As I said, freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
> 
> Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom.




Which of those Faith, Family, Truth, Freedom does Trump represent? None of it.

Maybe Freedom... to rob people and screw the environment.


----------



## PZ99

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, that's fine, but anyone who criticises the Catholic church is a Marxist/Socialist ?
> 
> Paleeze.



The irony is it puts the name caller in the same league as Adam Brandt.

Rank hypocrisy = classic Conservative.


----------



## Tisme

Tink said:


> Noirua, we are all entitled to our view.
> 
> Freedom of speech and freedom of thought.




and freedom of a Christian religion .... I'll defend that right Tink even if I might be at odds with a lot of it.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, that's fine, but anyone who criticises the Catholic church is a Marxist/Socialist ?
> 
> Paleeze.




especially as it's been the RCs who have driven their religion via the social agenda means.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> For Trump, yes it's less true.
> 
> He's accused by some 20 women of sexual harassment. Caught on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women and "they let you because you're famous". etc. etc.
> 
> His career seems to be going fine.
> 
> .




Whatever his methods, the recipe seems to be working well for him


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Whatever his methods, the recipe seems to be working well for him




A fixed four year term makes polls irrelevant.

Lets see what the mid term Congressional elections bring. If the Dems get control of Congress  back, it could be "hello impeachment".


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> A fixed four year term makes polls irrelevant.
> 
> Lets see what the mid term Congressional elections bring. If the Dems get control of Congress  back, it could be "hello impeachment".





I have a feeling there is a certain amount of national masochism going on. Not a bitter pill, but a certain amount of enjoyment of domestic upheaval and renewal from the previous robot like state of affairs. The little man feels known, if not rewarded.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I have a feeling there is a certain amount of national masochism going on. Not a bitter pill, but a certain amount of enjoyment of domestic upheaval and renewal from the previous robot like state of affairs. The little man feels known, if not rewarded.




Yeah you could be right. Obama was dignified but didn't really achieve much. Maybe the Yanks need someone really crap to make them appreciate the quiet achiever type.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, that's fine, but anyone who criticises the Catholic church is a Marxist/Socialist ?
> 
> Paleeze.



Hang on...  You don't think bazza is a Marxist/socialist?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Hang on...  You don't think bazza is a Marxist/socialist?




Not really. Do you think VC is a Marxist/Socialist because he's always attacking the Catholic church ?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah you could be right. Obama was dignified but didn't really achieve much. Maybe the Yanks need someone really crap to make them appreciate the quiet achiever type.




They are raised on a diet of struggle against the big bad British, even though they were British themselves. It's embedded in their psyche that the hard earned good fight is rewarding.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Not really. Do you think VC is a Marxist/Socialist because he's always attacking the Catholic church ?



VC is not relevant.  

What do you see as bazzas political ideology?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> What do you see as bazzas political ideology?





I don't really care. I take everyone's posts on a case by case basis.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> I don't really care. I take everyone's posts on a case by case basis.



Well so do I,  that's why i think of bas as a Marxist,  where as I see you as old fashioned Labor.

As a centrist I see a lot of common ground with you,  not so much with bas.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Well so do I,  that's why i think of bas as a Marxist,  where as I see you as old fashioned Labor.
> 
> As a centrist I see a lot of common ground with you,  not so much with bas.




Well there we go. I consider myself a Centrist and I see you as a fair bit right of me. Not that I despise you for that as you seem to despise bas, I think that I certainly have points in common with both you and bas which shows that trying to put people in well defined boxes is pretty silly.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Whatever his methods, the recipe seems to be working well for him




It was events and circumstances that made Trump the president. It was not his own brilliance, drive and hardwork that did it.

So if the recipe includes being born into wealth, inherited some $250M in the 70s... get into the presidential race to promote his Apprentice reality tv show; had the corrupted DNC and Clinton machine rigging the votes to push a "socialist outsider" out for a hated establishment politician... then have decades of policies that turn the vast majority of voters wanting anyone but the usual insider politician... yea, he did good.

But as the Greek have taught us, one can never be certain of how well we've done until we're on our deathbed.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Well there we go. I consider myself a Centrist and I see you as a fair bit right of me. Not that I despise you for that as you seem to despise bas, I think that I certainly have points in common with both you and bas which shows that trying to put people in well defined boxes is pretty silly.



Like putting all conservative thinkers into the alt right box?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Like putting all conservative thinkers into the alt right box?




Sure, that is just as silly as putting all the Greens into the Socialist/Marxist box. There are spectrums of thought in most organisations.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> It was events and circumstances that made Trump the president. It was not his own brilliance, drive and hardwork that did it.
> 
> So if the recipe includes being born into wealth, inherited some $250M in the 70s... get into the presidential race to promote his Apprentice reality tv show; had the corrupted DNC and Clinton machine rigging the votes to push a "socialist outsider" out for a hated establishment politician... then have decades of policies that turn the vast majority of voters wanting anyone but the usual insider politician... yea, he did good.
> 
> But as the Greek have taught us, one can never be certain of how well we've done until we're on our deathbed.




You think he was an accidental tourist?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Well there we go. I consider myself a Centrist .




The real test is to compare your comfort zones with the original (Lib/Labor) policies towards race, economics, human rights, worker's rights, nationalism, etc and see just how central your views are. I say this because today both party policies seem to be grab bags of popularism rather than blunt force beliefs.

In yesteryear xenophobia was a shared policy, later owned by the Labor Party, but these days it's considered an alt-right  chattel. There is no rhyme nor reason in the definitions currently IMO


----------



## Tink

As I have stated a few times on this forum, I don't care what people 'believe'.

-----

The foundations of this country and its heritage is based on Christianity.

Our public holidays reflect it.

Our Constitution reflects it with - Almighty God.

The government dealt with law and order etc.

The Churches were a part of the community and every area had a Christian Church.

Just my view.

----
_Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, we will be a nation gone under.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/_


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, that is just as silly as putting all the Greens into the Socialist/Marxist box. There are spectrums of thought in most organisations.



Well yes,  the spectrum in the Greens ranges from Socialism through to Marxism.


----------



## basilio

The latest in where Trump is taking the US.

We now have Trump dating website for people to find partners who share their affection for the Don.
A convicted  child sex offender is  pictured as their promotion guy.  The site won't cater for homesexuals. It will take anyone else with a pulse  (and of course money)  married or unmarried.

Only in Donald Trumps America.

*The Guy in That Trump Dating Site Ad Has a Child Sex Conviction*



Jennings Brown
Today 11:30am
Filed to: Donald Trump
49.2K
16513





Screenshot: Trump.dating
Die-hard Donald Trump supporters struggling to find partners who love freedom and despise cuckservatives as much as they do were recently blessed with a new dating site just for them: Trump.Dating. But because everything Trump-related has to come with an embarrassing and horrific publicity flub, one of the mugs featured prominently in the marketing is a Tea Party activist with a child sex conviction, North Carolina records show.

The dating site began targeting deplorable-lovers ahead of Valentine’s Day, running a sponsored post with the promotional image on the Daily Caller. But the site went viral last week once mainstream outlets highlighted a key aspect of the site—it was only open to people who identified as a “straight man” or “straight woman.” The site’s ethnicity section also allowed users to get curiously specific with their particular strain of whiteness: “Scandinavian/Mediterranean/Eastern European/Western European.”

https://gizmodo.com/the-guy-in-that-trump-dating-site-ad-has-a-child-sex-co-1823155857?IR=T


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> The latest in where Trump is taking the US.
> 
> We now have Trump dating website for people to find partners who share their affection for the Don.
> A convicted  child sex offender is  pictured as their promotion guy.  The site won't cater for homesexuals. It will take anyone else with a pulse  (and of course money)  married or unmarried.
> 
> Only in Donald Trumps America.
> 
> *The Guy in That Trump Dating Site Ad Has a Child Sex Conviction*
> 
> 
> 
> Jennings Brown
> Today 11:30am
> Filed to: Donald Trump
> 49.2K
> 16513
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screenshot: Trump.dating
> Die-hard Donald Trump supporters struggling to find partners who love freedom and despise cuckservatives as much as they do were recently blessed with a new dating site just for them: Trump.Dating. But because everything Trump-related has to come with an embarrassing and horrific publicity flub, one of the mugs featured prominently in the marketing is a Tea Party activist with a child sex conviction, North Carolina records show.
> 
> The dating site began targeting deplorable-lovers ahead of Valentine’s Day, running a sponsored post with the promotional image on the Daily Caller. But the site went viral last week once mainstream outlets highlighted a key aspect of the site—it was only open to people who identified as a “straight man” or “straight woman.” The site’s ethnicity section also allowed users to get curiously specific with their particular strain of whiteness: “Scandinavian/Mediterranean/Eastern European/Western European.”
> 
> https://gizmodo.com/the-guy-in-that-trump-dating-site-ad-has-a-child-sex-co-1823155857?IR=T





So now you are tying degrees of white skin to pedophiles? Let me guess you don't have Nordic white skin correct?

You should leave the greens and join a eugenics club.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> But the site went viral last week once mainstream outlets highlighted a key aspect of the site—it was only open to people who identified as a “straight man” or “straight woman.”




I don't see anything wrong with that.

People who don't identify as straight can start their own dating sites, and I'm sure many have.


----------



## SirRumpole

Will be interesting to see if this gets through or fizzles out.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-21/trump-urges-ban-on-gun-devices-like-bump-stocks/9469410


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> So now you are tying degrees of white skin to pedophiles? Let me guess you don't have Nordic white skin correct?
> .




Noo...  I  can see the point of a  Trump lovers dating site. It does make sense in a very politically divided country.
The amusing/craxy parts  IMO are

1) Did anyone think about the background of the guy who was going to be their poster boy when they used him ? It clearly was very easy to find his background as convicted sex offender. Maybe not the best choice here ?

2) Deciding in 2018 that their dating site was not going to allow gay people to look for partners. There are plenty of gay people who voted for Donald Trump. I would have thought it wasn't a serious isuue for either political party. So it seems strange this website would not accept participation from the gay Trump community.

As far as the "degrees of whiteness" question ? Who cares - but it may be saying something about the people set up the website.

I was trying to work out how TISME created a connection between pedophiles and whiteness.  But then I quickly realised that was a waste of time.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> I was trying to work out how TISME created a connection between pedophiles and whiteness.  But then I quickly realised that was a waste of time.




It's there in black and white ... you posted that vulgar story. I wouldn't be surprised that unhinged people out there will read it and start attacking whitey.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> It's there in black and white ... you posted that vulgar story. I wouldn't be surprised that unhinged people out there will read it and start attacking whitey.




Excellent Tisme !   Second class Distinction for trolling 301. 

Keep up the good work and The Don should bring you on board any time soon.

Cheers !


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Excellent Tisme !   Second class Distinction for trolling 301.
> 
> Keep up the good work and The Don should bring you on board any time soon.
> 
> Cheers !




Lets hope Richard Di doesn't dob you in too. Incitement to violence, followed by lack of contrition is not a good look.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Lets hope Richard Di doesn't dob you in too. Incitement to violence, followed by lack of contrition is not a good look.





Excellent again Tisme.  Trolling 301 is certainly one of your better subjects.

Why arn't you on the Conspiracy Thread ? They are missing a first class conspirator. Perhaps you can get to the bottom of all these pesky school killings and why  AK 47's are getting such a bad rap these days.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Excellent again Tisme.  Trolling 301 is certainly one of your better subjects.




You do realise, in the absence of a cogent argument, it is you who is actually trolling? 

Like any true marxist austral/anglophobe green you are looking to obscure the facts with twaffle and abrogation of personal responsibility.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> You do realise, in the absence of a cogent argument, it is you who is actually trolling?
> 
> Like any true marxist austral/anglophobe green you are looking to obscure the facts with twaffle and abrogation of personal responsibility.




What !!? Trying to discuss facts and reality with you ?  Come off it mate.  You have already demonstrated "cum summa laude" that that is complete waste of time.

Far more more fun to laud your excellent progess in trolling 301.


----------



## basilio

Back to the real world of Donald Trump (maybe..)

Just found an outstanding analysis of Donald Trumps response to the unfolding FBI investigations into the Russian subversion of US democracy.

Well worth a read IMO

* Whatever Trump is hiding is hurting all of us now *

*Thomas L. Friedman*

Democracy is in serious danger.

President Donald Trump is either totally compromised by the Russians or is a towering fool, or both, but either way he has shown himself unwilling or unable to defend America against a Russian campaign to divide and undermine our democracy.

That is, either Trump's real estate empire has taken large amounts of money from shady oligarchs linked to the Kremlin - so much that they literally own him; or rumours are true that he engaged in sexual misbehavior while he was in Moscow running the Miss Universe contest, which Russian intelligence has on tape and he doesn't want released; or Trump actually believes Russian President Vladimir Putin when he says he is innocent of intervening in our elections - over the explicit findings of Trump's own CIA, NSA and FBI chiefs.

In sum, Trump is either hiding something so threatening to himself, or he's criminally incompetent to be commander in chief. It is impossible yet to say which explanation for his behaviour is true, but it seems highly likely that one of these scenarios explains Trump's refusal to respond to Russia's direct attack on our system - a quiescence that is simply unprecedented for any US president in history. Russia is not our friend. It has acted in a hostile manner. And Trump keeps ignoring it all.

.....
Putin used cyberwarfare to poison American politics, to spread fake news, to help elect a chaos candidate, all in order to weaken our democracy. We should be using our cybercapabilities to _spread the truth about Putin - _just how much money he has stolen, just how many lies he has spread, just how many rivals he has jailed or made disappear - all to weaken his autocracy. That is what a real president would be doing right now.

My guess is what Trump is hiding has to do with money. It's something about his financial ties to business elites tied to the Kremlin. They may own a big stake in him. Who can forget that quote from his son Donald Trump Jr from back in 2008: "Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross section of a lot of our assets." They may own our president.

But whatever it is, Trump is either trying so hard to hide it or is so naive about Russia that he is ready to not only resist mounting a proper defence of our democracy, he's actually ready to undermine some of our most important institutions, the FBI and Justice Department, to keep his compromised status hidden.

That must not be tolerated. This is code red. The biggest threat to the integrity of our democracy today is in the Oval Office.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...is-hurting-all-of-us-now-20180220-p4z11n.html


----------



## Tink

_In America, we know that
FAITH AND FAMILY,
not government and bureaucracy,
are the center of American life.

Our motto is: IN GOD WE TRUST._
-----------

_Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, we will be a nation gone under.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/_

-----

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...-trump-take-us-sic.30557/page-112#post-973306_


----------



## Tisme

Tisme said:


> You do realise, in the absence of a cogent argument, it is you who is actually trolling?





basilio said:


> What !!? Trying to discuss facts and reality with you ?  Come off it mate.  You have already demonstrated "cum summa laude" that that is complete waste of time.
> 
> Far more more fun to laud your excellent progess in trolling 301.




With the caveat of humour, everything I post is either self evident or becomes self evident = reality. This is the advantage of education, knowledge and experience and although I don't profess to have a monopoly on that trilogy, I do appreciate it.

Your posts are generally highly subjective, emotional, propaganda driven and obedient to an anterior socio-political dogma of your choosing. There is no analogue to your set practice, except group (marxiist green) cued sociopathic/narcissistic practices of shifting goal posts, mis direction, ranting, insults, hysteria, conspiracies, threats, etc.

Most of your posts are just cut 'n paste from some all girl socialist rag.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Your posts are generally highly subjective, emotional, propaganda driven and obedient to an anterior socio-political dogma of your choosing. There is no analogue to your set practice, except group (marxiist green) cued sociopathic/narcissistic practices of shifting goal posts, mis direction, ranting, insults, hysteria, conspiracies, threats, etc.
> 
> Most of your posts are just cut 'n paste from some all girl socialist rag.




Back to form I see. Another piece of (attempted) eridite lying waffle from graduate 301 Trolling academy.

For the sake of universal  literacy Tisme how about telling us what "*There is no analogue to your set practice " *means. I'm always interested in broadening my education.

But this thread shouldn't be about our differences of opinion.  What did you think of Thomas Friedmans anlaysis of Donald Trump response to the systemtic  Russian intervention in US politics via their sophisticated troll factory ?


----------



## SirRumpole

The old saying about following the money is very relevant in this case.

Getting a complete description of what Trump owns and owes to various investors could be the most important thing any enquiry into political influence and election rigging does. 

I think it could apply to Australia as well although not as much as Trump.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Back to form I see. Another piece of (attempted) eridite lying waffle from graduate 301 Trolling academy.
> 
> For the sake of universal  literacy Tisme how about telling us what "*There is no analogue to your set practice " *means. I'm always interested in broadening my education.
> 
> But this thread shouldn't be about our differences of opinion.  What did you think of Thomas Friedmans anlaysis of Donald Trump response to the systemtic  Russian intervention in US politics via their sophisticated troll factory ?




Did you mean erudite or araldite? The latter being pretty much a spot on euphemism.

Your posts indicate you are a binary thinker, not an analogue.

Once again you resort to the invective = " lying waffle ", when you can't express yourself in a civilised manner.  I understand this, because if it can't fit on a SJW rally placard, the sentence is just too long and comprehension just to hard for some.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> The old saying about following the money is very relevant in this case.
> 
> Getting a complete description of what Trump owns and owes to various investors could be the most important thing any enquiry into political influence and election rigging does.
> 
> I think it could apply to Australia as well although not as much as Trump.




There is a kind of mindset in the U$ofA that oversight is anathema to the American dream of rags to riches. This manifests itself in things like Chapter 7 or 11 and Safe Harbor Statements.

I think there would be great aversion in the business and political circles to opening Pandoras boxes like money trails into high ranking elite.


----------



## basilio

basilio said:


> For the sake of universal literacy Tisme how about telling us what "*There is no analogue to your set practice " *means. I'm always interested in broadening my education.




I have no problem TISME with asking for clarification when I see something I don't understand.  Again could you explain what your sentence means. If I saw such a sentence  from any secondary or tertiary student I taught I would make exactly the same request.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I think there would be great aversion in the business and political circles to opening Pandoras boxes like money trails into high ranking elite.




I'm sure you are right. Everyone is probably guilty in some way.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> The old saying about following the money is very relevant in this case.
> 
> Getting a complete description of what Trump owns and owes to various investors could be the most important thing any enquiry into political influence and election rigging does.
> 
> I think it could apply to Australia as well although not as much as Trump.




It is a very practical question. From memory there have been a number of queries about how much Donald Trump is actually worth and how much he and his companies owe to banks, institutions.

The question of his Russian property interests is particularly critical. Every piece of evidence re Donald Trump has demonstrated his focus on Making the Deal* for him *and god help anyone in his way.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure you are right. Everyone is probably guilty in some way.




Which is why Governments are supposed to be very careful to ensure politicians declare their interests and political decisions are not made that  benefit them directly.

That's called corruption.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> I have no problem TISME with asking for clarification when I see something I don't understand.  Again could you explain what your sentence means. If I saw such a sentence  from any secondary or tertiary student I taught I would make exactly the same request.




I answered it already, which speaks heaps about its truth and your comprehension.


----------



## basilio

Just waiting for the end of the  Winter Games


----------



## explod

basilio said:


> Which is why Governments are supposed to be very careful to ensure politicians declare their interests and political decisions are not made that  benefit them directly.
> 
> That's called corruption.



They are all pretty well corrupt across the board, Trump's just for himself and pretty open about it.  This sort of blatant openness is shunned as it does not play the underhand game.  The press represent this behind the scene charade making it difficult to understand or decipher.

Interesting times.


----------



## SirRumpole

A man so brave that he has to be surrounded by security guards 24/7 would have tackled the Florida school shooter (he says).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-27/trump-says-he-would-have-run-into-florida-shooting/9487640


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> A man so brave that he has to be surrounded by security guards 24/7 would have tackled the Florida school shooter (he says).
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-27/trump-says-he-would-have-run-into-florida-shooting/9487640




War hero too.

Personally I think they were brave just hanging around. A bit of a reality check that not everyone is a Hollywood action figure in real life and there are active shooter protocols that are paramount before the media wanted gung-ho. 

I wonder if the deputy and security guys had the same armour and weaponry as the full metal jackets who came later?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> A man so brave that he has to be surrounded by security guards 24/7 would have tackled the Florida school shooter (he says).
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-27/trump-says-he-would-have-run-into-florida-shooting/9487640


----------



## basilio

Hope Hicks has pulled the plug on her role in the Trump administration as Comminications Director.  Fourth person in the job. 

*Hope Hicks resigns as White House communications director*

Hope Hicks is resigning from her role as the White House communications director.

Updated Updated 1 hour ago
By Riley Morgan
Hope Hicks, one of President Donald Trump's longest-serving aides, is resigning from her job as White House communications director, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said on Wednesday.

Ms Sanders told reporters the timeline for Hicks' departure was unclear.

She said her departure was not related to her testimony to a congressional committee on Tuesday about a probe into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election. (*Really ?? We'll see soon enough..)*
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hope-hicks-resigns-as-white-house-communications-director


----------



## basilio

Current list of sacked/left Trump administration staff.

*Top officials and advisers who have resigned or been dismissed under Trump*
*Stephen Bannon - Chief strategist*

Mr Trump's former chief strategist, Stephen Bannon, lasted less than seven months after he was reportedly removed by the administration. However, a New York Times report claims Mr Bannon had submitted his resignation to the president before he was stood down.

*Sean Spicer - Press secretary*

The embattled former press secretary lasted a turbulent six months after he resigned over Mr Trump's hiring of Anthony Scaramucci as communications director, according to reports.

*Michael Flynn - National security adviser*

Mr Flynn lasted only three weeks in the White House after Mr Trump asked for his resignation following claims he misled the vice president.

*Reince Priebus - Chief of staff*

Lasting six months, Mr Trump asked for Mr Priebus' resignation to replace him with John Kelly.

*Anthony Scaramucci - Communications director*

Mr Scarammuci was fired from the White House after 10 days following a verbal tirade during an interview.

*Hope Hicks - White House Communications director*

Hope Hicks is set to resign for unknown reasons.

Source: Reuters - SBS
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hope-hicks-resigns-as-white-house-communications-director


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Current list of sacked/left Trump administration staff.
> 
> *Top officials and advisers who have resigned or been dismissed under Trump*
> *Stephen Bannon - Chief strategist*
> 
> Mr Trump's former chief strategist, Stephen Bannon, lasted less than seven months after he was reportedly removed by the administration. However, a New York Times report claims Mr Bannon had submitted his resignation to the president before he was stood down.
> 
> *Sean Spicer - Press secretary*
> 
> The embattled former press secretary lasted a turbulent six months after he resigned over Mr Trump's hiring of Anthony Scaramucci as communications director, according to reports.
> 
> *Michael Flynn - National security adviser*
> 
> Mr Flynn lasted only three weeks in the White House after Mr Trump asked for his resignation following claims he misled the vice president.
> 
> *Reince Priebus - Chief of staff*
> 
> Lasting six months, Mr Trump asked for Mr Priebus' resignation to replace him with John Kelly.
> 
> *Anthony Scaramucci - Communications director*
> 
> Mr Scarammuci was fired from the White House after 10 days following a verbal tirade during an interview.
> 
> *Hope Hicks - White House Communications director*
> 
> Hope Hicks is set to resign for unknown reasons.
> 
> Source: Reuters - SBS
> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hope-hicks-resigns-as-white-house-communications-director



And.........?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> And.........?




Donald Trump behaves like a wilful 6 year old - armed with unlimited power and no restraints.  Not a good receipe for any government.

*A Tufts professor ‘broke Twitter’ with this crazy-long thread about Donald Trump’s staff treating him like a toddler*

 44 






CHRIS KLEPONIS/POOL/EPA/Shutterstock
President Trump met with business owners to speak about tax reform on Tuesday.
By Nik DeCosta-Klipa Boston.com staff  December 05, 2017

Like most things on Twitter, it all started as “an exercise in snark.”

Daniel Drezner was simply reading up on the latest political news one morning last April when he came across a Washington Post story about President Trump’s cable TV-watching habits. Drezner, a professor at Tufts University’s Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, was particularly struck by a paragraph in which an unnamed Trump adviser said there was “no managing” the president during his late-evening TV sessions, so he decided to screenshot the excerpt with a line of commentary:

“I’ll believe that Trump is growing into the presidency when his staff stops talking about him like a toddler,” he wrote, garnering thousands of retweets and likes.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/po...ike-toddler/hN9w3AlF5875Pkmu7VWvAI/story.html

If you want to see how White House staff attempted to manage this 6 year Prince check out the thread. It's priceless.
 *Daniel W. Drezner*‏Verified account @*dandrezner* 2h2 hours ago
Daniel W. Drezner Retweeted Daniel W. Drezner
This is the 249th tweet in the #*ToddlerinChief* thread.


----------



## basilio

Ever considered why The President of the  US and his staff don't/shouldn't have other business interests when they are acting on behalf of the nation?

Turns out that Daniel Kusher,  *Donald Trumps son-in-law and senior advisor to the President *has received hundreds of millions of dollars in loans from companies that have visted him in the White House.
*Kushner’s Business Got*
*Loans From Companies*
*After White House Meetings*
Apollo, the private equity firm, and
Citigroup made large loans last year to
the family real estate business of Jared
Kushner, President Trump’s senior adviser.

By JESSE DRUCKER, KATE KELLY and BEN PROTESSFEB. 28, 2018

Continue reading the main story Share This Page

Share
Early last year, a private equity billionaire started paying regular visits to the White House.

Joshua Harris, a founder of Apollo Global Management, was advising Trump administration officials on infrastructure policy. During that period, he met on multiple occasions with Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, said three people familiar with the meetings. Among other things, the two men discussed a possible White House job for Mr. Harris.

*The job never materialized, but in November, Apollo lent $184 million to Mr. Kushner’s family real estate firm, Kushner Companies. The loan was to refinance the mortgage on a Chicago skyscrape*r.

Even by the standards of Apollo, one of the world’s largest private equity firms, the previously unreported transaction with the Kushners was a big deal: It was triple the size of the average property loan made by Apollo’s real estate lending arm, securities filings show.

*It was one of the largest loans Kushner Companies received last year. An even larger loan came from Citigroup, which lent the firm and one of its partners $325 million to help finance a group of office buildings in Brooklyn.*

That loan was made in the spring of 2017, shortly after Mr. Kushner met in the White House with Citigroup’s chief executive, Michael L. Corbat, according to people briefed on the meeting. The two men talked about financial and trade policy and did not discuss Mr. Kushner’s family business, one person said.

*There is little precedent for a top White House official meeting with executives of companies as they contemplate sizable loans to his business, say government ethics experts.

“This is exactly why senior government officials, for as long back as I have any experience, don’t maintain any active outside business interests,” said Don Fox, the former acting director of the Office of Government Ethics during the Obama administration and, before that, a lawyer for the Air Force and Navy during Republican and Democratic administrations. “The appearance of conflicts of interest is simply too great.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/business/jared-kushner-apollo-citigroup-loans.html?smid=tw-share*


----------



## wayneL

What is amusing is all this without consideration of your own behaviours. 

You're playing to the echo chamber Komrade.


----------



## moXJO

Trump is President.
No one cares about the latest lefty cryfest. You would think the dems would have learnt during the Dillary campaign.


----------



## basilio

MoKjo, Wayne are you saying that regardless of competency, regardless of ethics, regardless of nepotism and regardless of obvious conflicts of interest  Donald Trump is untouchable as President ?

Taking it to the obvious conclusion Donald Trump could walk down 5th Avenue and shoot someone and nothing would happen. Fair comment ?

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/23/politics/donald-trump-shoot-somebody-support/index.html


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Trump is President.
> No one cares about the latest lefty cryfest. You would think the dems would have learnt during the Dillary campaign.




I think you are wrong there.  I don't think a lot of Americans like the disrespect that the US is seen by the rest of the world. They are used to everyone else liking them.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump showing some b@lls over gun control ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-pushes-for-tougher-gun-control-laws/9496206


----------



## Tisme

> * <insert here>*  behaves like a wilful 6 year old - armed with unlimited power and no restraints




Can you see what I see?


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Can you see what I see?




The power of the keyboard is strong indeed Luke.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> MoKjo, Wayne are you saying that regardless of competency, regardless of ethics, regardless of nepotism and regardless of obvious conflicts of interest  Donald Trump is untouchable as President ?
> 
> Taking it to the obvious conclusion Donald Trump could walk down 5th Avenue and shoot someone and nothing would happen. Fair comment ?
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/23/politics/donald-trump-shoot-somebody-support/index.html



The news is overfed with Trump stories. He has done bad stuff that no one else would get away with. 

And yet here we are. 

All these stories with half truths and negativity on trump just dilute the more important ones. I don't know what news stories to believe anymore, without a half hour of research. So its easier to start ignoring them.


----------



## qldfrog

some Truth there moXJO.
Since Hillary is unable to accept her defeat (as it was her defeat not Trump's victory) we have so much anti Trump bias I do not give a **** to the news and I believe most of the americans do the same (except the Hillary fan cohorts of course with their self righteous indignation)
As Trump is going to pass the first laws since ages on gun control, it is hardly noted, or not enough orrr..but compare with the past..anyway..he is not a saint but i have more respect for him than any of the other puppets


----------



## SirRumpole

qldfrog said:


> is going to pass




That remains to be seen. Good on him if he does.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> MoKjo, Wayne are you saying that....



So whay you are say is that you are channelling Cathy Newman?

Amateur bas,  amateur.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> That remains to be seen. Good on him if he does.




He, like most people who aren't politician, have moments of sanity. But he will be quickly enough brought into line by those who know better.

It is better to come to terms with doing what the lobbyist tells you, get to live and retire with a few billions extra. Don't go insulting the real owner or growing a brain... might end up like Nixon and be seen as a villian; or JFK and a hero who's no longer with his family.

There was a leak some weeks ago about Trump telling his generals: you guys keep asking me to send more troops here, bomb more places there. Why the heck are we doing this.

General: Sir, we have to do it there so we don't have to do it here.

Trump: You always say that. You can say that about any place you want bombed. 

Not sure if that exchange was before or after "he" ordered that Mother of all Bombs on Afghanistan. 

There's a reason why empires and dynasties last no more than 220 to 300 years. The empire get over-extended, the military grows too powerful, the plebs too impoverished, the elite too rich and corrupt to know the possibility of an uprising... then a spark either ignite the plebs to overthrow their governemtn... or an external shock reduces it to a colony and protectorate.


----------



## Tisme

Interesting to see if the relatively small amount of steel China sells into the USA, will be be replaced by the same stuff, but in the form of e.g. cheap white goods with increased profit margins  :- putting tariffs on import steel will presumably raise the cost of production in the U$ofA .


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Interesting to see if the relatively small amount of steel China sells into the USA, will be be replaced by the same stuff, but in the form of e.g. cheap white goods with increased profit margins  :- putting tariffs on import steel will presumably raise the cost of production in the U$ofA .




Increased cost of production, yes. But that's OK because beside war machines, how many manufactured goods does the US export nowadays anyway. 

So most of the costs will be paid for by Americans themselves. On that planned infrastructure spent. 

Apparently we in Australia already have a similar trade protection scheme for the local steel industry. I was told by a sales rep that they have to pay some 5% or 10% extra if they import steel from China. So they have to buy from OneSteel the raw material... "making life very difficult" as he put it.


----------



## wayneL

Chinese steel is absolute shyte anyway. 

The difference when you work proper stuff is huge.


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> Chinese steel is absolute shyte anyway.
> 
> The difference when you work proper stuff is huge.



Depends where you get it from. 
Plus you need guys there checking the orders are packed with what its suppose to contain.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Chinese steel is absolute shyte anyway.
> 
> The difference when you work proper stuff is huge.




Personally I wouldn't want to build my foundation with Chinese imported steel. 

But if it's for a client... well, I supposed there's a few pieces of paper saying it's to Australian standard soooo your Honour... who am I to question other people's authority 

But yea, for an average house the cost of reinforcement is about $4K to $5K... which is practically nothing really. Might as well go for quality you can trust... and supporting a couple of local duopoly for their hard lobbying work.


----------



## wayneL

Sticking on the bottom of a horses foot for six weeks shows you a lot about the quality of the steel.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Personally I wouldn't want to build my foundation with Chinese imported steel.
> 
> But if it's for a client... well, I supposed there's a few pieces of paper saying it's to Australian standard soooo your Honour... who am I to question other people's authority
> 
> But yea, for an average house the cost of reinforcement is about $4K to $5K... which is practically nothing really. Might as well go for quality you can trust... and supporting a couple of local duopoly for their hard lobbying work.




Just about everything out of China is dodgy...we all know it, they know it, every Oz business that has gone down because of price point knows it.


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> Sticking on the bottom of a horses foot for six weeks shows you a lot about the quality of the steel.



Is there any special requirement for the steel to make horse shoes? 
Why don't you use stainless steel?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Just about everything out of China is dodgy...we all know it, they know it, every Oz business that has gone down because of price point knows it.




Them fake LewisVuitton and Niko Aires look pretty good though. 

But yea, China is a big country with many lords. As long as the importer do their homework and check the specs themselves, they might get half of what they paid for.


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> Is there any special requirement for the steel to make horse shoes?
> Why don't you use stainless steel?



You probably could use SS,  if you found the right forgeable alloy,  but their really is no benefit in doing so. There us a cost-workability-benefit equation.

Just decent mild steel is all that is required,  but a lot of the chinese stuff is not much more than iron with a few impurities.  Aus steel you can harden via quenching from red heat, the Chinese stuff won't harden very much at all, it also slags up much more in the fire. 

You can also use aluminium for therapuetic work (or premade racing plates).

Copper used to be used in the coal mines because of the non sparking properties... And fun for specimen shoes you can polish up and make pretty. 

Titanium was tried for a while,  and there are some polyurethane shoes available.


----------



## basilio

Just what we all needed... a Pre-Depression style Trade war.

*Trump administration's trade war claims first Australian victim*

 Share via Email 






"Protectionism is a dead end. It's not a ladder to get you out of the low-growth trap. It's a shovel to dig it much deeper," said Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. Jessica Hromas

by
 Jacob Greber 
 John Kehoe 
Donald Trump's fast-escalating protectionist trade war has claimed its first Australian scalp with Perth silicon metal exporter Simcoa slammed by a bruising 51 per cent US government tariff that threatens to muddy Canberra's push to be excluded from steep steel and aluminium levies.

As governments around the world led by the European Union, China and Canada ramp up retaliatory threats – including potential tariffs on Harley-Davidsons, bourbon and blue jeans – the Turnbull government admitted it still has no clarity on whether the steel tariffs would hit Australian exporters.

In a warning of how a full-blown global trade war would confound Mr Trump's tweet over the weekend that "trade wars are good, and easy to win", modelling obtained by _The Australian Financial Review _by Deloitte Access Economics shows it would cost 20,000 jobs, wipe $5 billion off national income within a year, and derail a much-needed upswing in business investment.

*WTO issues warning*




In an unusual intervention into a World Trade Organisation member's trade policy, director general Roberto Azevedo said the "potential for escalation is real". "A trade war is in no one's interests. The WTO will be watching the situation very closely."


Markets and investors continue to brace for potential blow back from China and others after Mr Trump announced a plan for 25 per cent tariffs on steel imports and 10 per cent on aluminium.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average crashed 771.93 points last week, or 3 per cent.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, just over a week after personally pressing Mr Trump at the White House to honour a pledge last year to exempt Australian exporters such as BlueScope Steel, on Sunday lashed out at slide towards greater trade barriers.

"Protectionism is a dead end. It's not a ladder to get you out of the low-growth trap. It's a shovel to dig it much deeper," Mr Turnbull said.

http://www.afr.com/news/economy/tru...laims-first-australian-victim-20180304-h0wylv


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> *Trump administration's trade war claims first Australian victim*




We should cancel our free Trade deal with the US as it seems that Trump has no respect for it.

They get a lot more out of it than we do.


----------



## SirRumpole

The perils of trusting Trump.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-05/trump-said-australia-would-be-exempt-from-tariffs/9512612


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> The perils of trusting Trump.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-05/trump-said-australia-would-be-exempt-from-tariffs/9512612





Perils or naivety?  How many times does the LNP have to try sidling up to the USofA only to be done over? They must think we are Hicksville.

Meanwhile our true trading partners watch on as we make fools of ourselves thinking gratuitous WW2 camaraderie was about saving Australia rather than the commercial and commonwealth interests of the  US at the time.

Paul Keating warned us to "cut the tag" two years ago and as late as last November put out there what is coming true right now:




> *Changes our world forever’: Paul Keating warns of breakdown in US-China relations*
> FORMER Prime Minister Paul Keating has revealed what he sees as the biggest threat to Australia’s future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Chung@franks_chung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.com.auNOVEMBER 15, 20171:59PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating speaking at the CEDA annual dinner in Sydney on Tuesday 14 November 2017. Picture: David Moir/AAPSource:AAP
> 
> FORMER Prime Minister Paul Keating has warned that the biggest threat to Australia is a breakdown in co-operation between the US and China in the coming decades.
> 
> Speaking at the annual Committee for Economic Development of Australia (CEDA) dinner on Tuesday, Mr Keating predicted a coming “bifurcation between the west and the east” and the decline of supranational bodies such as the European Union.
> 
> “The Chinese believe in globalisation but they don’t believe in globalism,” Mr Keating told a packed crowd at Sydney’s Hyatt Regency. “They don’t believe in a block strategic structure run out of the Atlantic.
> 
> “We’re now going to a bifurcated world where global governance is going to be perhaps much more about the nation state and its representation in places like the United Nations, but not going to be [about] bindings of states in alliances of the kind the US has had in the past.”
> 
> Mr Keating said the result would be a “much more identifiable world of independent nation states of big power rivalries of a kind we last saw at the end of the 19th century”.
> 
> “That’s why the relationship between the US and China is so important here, and frankly the relationship between Russia and Europe.”
> 
> A breakdown in co-operation between the US and China “changes our world forever”, he said, warning Australia must “do all we can to resist such an impasse” and adding that the strong relationship between US President Donald Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping was “encouraging”.
> 
> 
> “America will remain our security alliance partner, the world’s predominant military power and a great democracy to which we are philosophically akin, but we are increasingly part of a regional economy based on China,” he said.
> 
> “There are increasing signs that the inevitable strategic competition between these two nations risks spilling into trade, investment and technological competition as well as issues of global economic governance.
> 
> “We should have no interest whatsoever in publicly or privately encouraging either America or China down the paths of crude economic nationalism. A mercantilist path where investment in each others’ economy is resisted, or where trade is thought of as wins and losses, where agreed global rules can be suspended, is of no use to us.”
> 
> Highlighting the major economic reforms of the ‘80s and ‘90s, Mr Keating said the next big opportunity for Australia lay in the realm of technology and artificial intelligence, but warned the country risked sliding into gradual decline without visionary thinking.
> 
> He slammed the nation’s two peak business lobby groups, describing the Business Council of Australia’s calls for a company tax cuts as “dull” and the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry as a “national menace” for its attacks on penalty rates.
> 
> “Reform in Australia can’t be these simple notions,” he said. “The dullness of it. ‘You cut the company tax rate and the Holy Grail arrives.’ Or the whingeing from the ACCIs of this world about penalty rates when the reality of static wages growth stares us in the face.”
> 
> Mr Keating pointed to new technologies like Airbnb and Uber as the “tip of a big iceberg”. “We can see the first big phase of this shift with consumers responding directly to the smorgasbord of things on offer at their fingertips, and as we can see information lowers prices,” he said.
> 
> “The wider phase where even larger gains will be had is in the heavily government influenced areas of health, education, aged care and human services. Can you imagine what is available to us in terms of productivity and improvement with the digitisation of these huge areas of the economy?
> 
> “These are the reform horizons we should be concentrating on now, not the dross handed down by the Business Council or the _Financial Review_.”
> 
> But Mr Keating warned changes of the kind required were “not going to drop from any department”.
> 
> “You won’t find these falling from a Treasury printer, because of their essence they require imagination,” he said. “Imagination was a principal tool in underwriting the ‘80s and ‘90s changes. If you can’t imagine it you’re sure as hell never going to see it.”


----------



## moXJO

We should be pushing trade with Asia and talking up those partnerships. US has proven they will walk out on supposed partners. They left those in Vietnam, Afghanistan and God knows how many others to be slaughted by their enemy. Once its no longer popular, they drop you out of "national interest".

Last time I checked in Sydney it wasn't full of Americans either.


----------



## basilio

*Stormy Daniels rides again...*

Looks as if David Dennision (A.K.A  Donald Trump) is going to get another special ride with the women he "never ever" had a relationship with.  Stormy Daniels is suing Donald Trump arguing that because  he  didn't sign the hush money arrangement the agreement is null and void.

Turns out the the deposition itself has enough fire crackers in it to give DD or DT a rocket.


* The 7 most interesting parts of Stormy Daniels' lawsuit against Trump *

*Aaron Blake*
354 reading now
 Show comments

*Washington: *pr0n star Stormy Daniels is suing US President Donald Trump, arguing that her hush-money arrangement to not talk about an alleged affair with him is null and void because Trump never signed it.

The lawsuit represents the latest development in an increasingly troubling situation for the White House. First it was reported that Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, paid Daniels $US130,000 ($167,000).

The pr0n star alleges US President Donald Trump did not sign a non-disclosure agreement for a payment to keep a decade-old affair between them quiet.

Then Cohen confirmed it in a carefully worded statement saying that the Trump Organisation and campaign weren't involved - but conspicuously did not rule out Trump's involvement. Then this week, the _Wall Street Journal_ reported that Cohen had complained in the past about not being able to reach Trump during the process and not being reimbursed - both suggesting that Trump was indeed involved. That could open Trump up to legal jeopardy.

Exactly how likely Daniels's lawsuit is to succeed is a major question. *If she does prevail, it could free her up to talk about the (alleged) affair. But if nothing else, the lawsuit itself serves as confirmation of some key details.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/com...-s-lawsuit-against-trump-20180307-p4z3c6.html*


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Looks as if David Dennision (A.K.A Donald Trump) is going to get another special ride with the women he "never ever" had a relationship with. Stormy Daniels is suing Donald Trump arguing that because he didn't sign the hush money arrangement the agreement is null and void.




I wonder if the same calls for impeachment of Bill Clinton over his alleged affair with Monica Lewinsky will be voiced again over Trump's indiscretions ?


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if the same calls for impeachment of Bill Clinton over his alleged affair with Monica Lewinsky will be voiced again over Trump's indiscretions ?




Are you talking about impeaching Bill Clinton or Donald Trump ?  I assume Donald Trump since he's the prez.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Are you talking about impeaching Bill Clinton or Donald Trump ?  I assume Donald Trump since he's the prez.




I'm just saying that Clinton nearly got impeached over Lewinsky. Will the same thing happen to Trump ?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> I'm just saying that Clinton nearly got impeached over Lewinsky. Will the same thing happen to Trump ?




Friends with Ruskies, has pots of money ... do you think any sane person would move against him?


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Friends with Ruskies, has pots of money ... do you think any sane person would move against him?




If the Democrats get control of Congress, they may very well do so.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> I'm just saying that Clinton nearly got impeached over Lewinsky. Will the same thing happen to Trump ?




No way on earth that Trump will be impeached just for banging Stormy Daniels. However if he has been shown to lie about his role in paying her hush money - that is another story.

Anyway, if one is looking for grounds of impeachment there are score already in place.  Close to top of the list is treating the Presidency as a business opportunity to make scads of money.

Second would have to be allowing/encouraging the Russians to interfere with the 2016 election because Putin was coming down on his side.


----------



## basilio

Todays *BIG* news. Donald Trump will meet Kim Jong-Un  in direct talks.

Quite amazing and potentially could be exceptionally good news for peace in the region.
Many different takes on this story.  The one common thread is everyone recognises that Donald Trump will need to be well prepared, well advised and very strategic in his approach to these talks....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/09/trump-kim-jong-un-believe-winning-risks-epic-analysis
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...north-korea-s-invitation-20180309-p4z3la.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/north-korea-talks/555041/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/us/politics/north-korea-kim-jong-un-trump.html


----------



## Logique

Latest today on North Korea leadership's overtures for dialogue with US/South Korea, including on missiles.

Could Obama and Hillary could have realized this same outcome? Don't make me laugh. 

North Korea recognized those posturing Democrat jellyfish for what they were.


----------



## basilio

Another very good analysis of how the Trump/Kim Jon-un meeting could unforld.

* 'Shocking, incredible': what the experts say about a Trump meeting with Kim *
Donald Tump has accepted an invitation to talks with North Korea’s Kim Jong-un – but what will happen?

Benjamin Haas in Seoul

 @haasbenjamin 
Fri 9 Mar 2018 14.47 AEDT   Last modified on Fri 9 Mar 2018 16.13 AEDT


*Shares*
53



Donald Trump’s decision to accept an offer of talks with Kim Jong-un has divided opinion among experts. Photograph: Jim Watson/AFP/Getty Images
Donald Trump has agreed to meet North Korean leader Kim Jong-un before May, a South Korean official said after a meeting at the White House. It would be the first time a sitting US president has met the leader of North Korea.

*‘Shocking that Trump agreed’*
*Jenny Town, assistant director, US-Korea Institute at Johns Hopkins SAIS:*

“It was a bit of a shock. It wasn’t shocking that Kim offered, it’s a bit of a shock that Trump agreed to it,” Town said. “Those of us who have been pushing for US-North Korea talks, this isn’t what we had in mind.

“Trump needs to realise this will come with a lot of criticism, and Trump needs to be able to shoulder that. Clear, consistent messaging is going to be important and Trump has not been shown to be adept at that.”

While Trump will not be diving into the minutiae of what North Korea needs to do with its nuclear programme, Town said he should push for “a continued moratorium on nuclear and missile testing, a moratorium on space launch vehicles, stopping fissile material production and allowing inspectors back into the country”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...he-experts-say-about-a-trump-meeting-with-kim


----------



## explod

The war manufacturing camp won't like this.

The fake news propaganda machine will go to overdrive plus 10.

Trump the olecar salesman meets shanghigh Un.  Who knows they might strike a great deal.


----------



## Tisme

explod said:


> The war manufacturing camp won't like this.
> 
> The fake news propaganda machine will go to overdrive plus 10.
> 
> Trump the olecar salesman meets shanghigh Un.  Who knows they might strike a great deal.




As a business man Trump is programmed to tolerate even objectionable people if a successful deal is at stake. Being a sociopath is an added bonus.


----------



## explod

Tisme said:


> As a business man Trump is programmed to tolerate even objectionable people if a successful deal is at stake. Being a sociopath is an added bonus.



You're a great support and mentor Tisme, tick up


----------



## luutzu

explod said:


> The war manufacturing camp won't like this.
> 
> The fake news propaganda machine will go to overdrive plus 10.
> 
> Trump the olecar salesman meets shanghigh Un.  Who knows they might strike a great deal.




Maybe they love it though.

With Kim having nukes, the US would definitely not risk a strike.

Kim without nukes is like Saddam without WMD, like Qaddafi without WMD, like Assad without the gas after the Russian work with the US to agree not to invade if it's removed....

So judging by history... The Korean Penninsular is another "growth opportunity".


----------



## sptrawler

Tisme said:


> Interesting to see if the relatively small amount of steel China sells into the USA, will be be replaced by the same stuff, but in the form of e.g. cheap white goods with increased profit margins  :- putting tariffs on import steel will presumably raise the cost of production in the U$ofA .




It's one way of introducing inflation into a stagnant economy.


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> Could Obama and Hillary could have realized this same outcome? Don't make me laugh.




What outcome ? there hasn't been any yet.

If Trump can get UN inspectors into NK to check out their nuclear weapons and facilities then I may believe.


----------



## basilio

Maybe it won't be Mueller who brings down the Trump administration ? The starting of a world trade war, the web of financial dealings around Jared Krishner, the criminal deceit over the hush money payments to Stormy "Ride em !" Daniels.   All big deals that are unravelling.

I wonder what the odds are on Trump seeing out the year ?

*Three potential calamities for Trump - aside from Mueller*

Send via Email
*Washington: *In the past week, three critical stories gained steam, any one of which could pose a threat to President Donald Trump's tenure. In the same week, we've seen Gary Cohn's resignation over the tariff decision; a slew of Jared Kushner scandals; and the Stormy Daniels lawsuit concerning $US130,000 to hush up a purported affair.

Trump's decision to press forward on tariffs has created a firestorm on the right and driven a wedge like no other issue has between Trump and the GOP-led Congress.

Why is this such a big deal? Republicans think, understandably, that their only chance of survival is a healthy economy, and getting credit for it by virtue of the tax bill. If, as we've seen hints of in the run-up to a formal enactment, the markets take a nosedive, so will Trump's bragging rights on that score and a whole lot of his rich donors/supporters will lose a whole lot of money.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...trump-aside-from-mueller-20180309-p4z3je.html


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Maybe it won't be Mueller who brings down the Trump administration ? The starting of a world trade war, the web of financial dealings around Jared Krishner, the criminal deceit over the hush money payments to Stormy "Ride em !" Daniels.   All big deals that are unravelling.
> 
> I wonder what the odds are on Trump seeing out the year ?
> 
> *Three potential calamities for Trump - aside from Mueller*
> 
> Send via Email
> *Washington: *In the past week, three critical stories gained steam, any one of which could pose a threat to President Donald Trump's tenure. In the same week, we've seen Gary Cohn's resignation over the tariff decision; a slew of Jared Kushner scandals; and the Stormy Daniels lawsuit concerning $US130,000 to hush up a purported affair.
> 
> Trump's decision to press forward on tariffs has created a firestorm on the right and driven a wedge like no other issue has between Trump and the GOP-led Congress.
> 
> Why is this such a big deal? Republicans think, understandably, that their only chance of survival is a healthy economy, and getting credit for it by virtue of the tax bill. If, as we've seen hints of in the run-up to a formal enactment, the markets take a nosedive, so will Trump's bragging rights on that score and a whole lot of his rich donors/supporters will lose a whole lot of money.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...trump-aside-from-mueller-20180309-p4z3je.html




I think that, unfortunately, Trump will serve out his entire term. Maybe even two if he start one or two proper wars. 

It's not often you, and by you I mean crazy corporatists and warmongers, get to have an idiot that just hand over $1.5T in tax cuts within the first year; add an extra $70B to an over bloated $600B+ military budget; remove practically all regulation... 

I mean, the guy is so greedy and so clueless he'd just hand out the state treasuries like it's giving it to his own family. And he is so odious that once he's done serving you, he'll get the blame and could easily be sent off to some nursing home. A nice one with lots of brass trimmings, but yea... It's like a gift that keeps on giving. 

So all these Russiagate, indictment of friends and former confidants... it's all to make sure he doesn't grow a brain and talk peace with a properly armed nuclear power. No, not North Korea, Russia.


----------



## basilio

It's a rare situation where Rupublicians and Democrats express similar concerns about Donald Trump new found eagerness to have direct *and personal *negotiations wth North Korean leader Kim Jong-un.

* Trump under pressure over chaotic approach to North Korea nuclear talks *

Republicans: denuclearisation must be prerequisite for meeting
CIA director and White House spokesman contradict each other
Jon Swaine

 @jonswaine 
Mon 12 Mar 2018 03.42 AEDT   Last modified on Mon 12 Mar 2018 04.07 AEDT

*Shares*
202

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...im-jong-un-denuclearisation-pompeo-shah#img-1
Donald Trump faced criticism from Republican allies on Sunday after apparently agreeing to meet Kim Jong-un without demanding that North Korea start scrapping its nuclear program.







Senators from Trump’s own party expressed scepticism and urged him to set tougher preconditions, amid growing concerns over the administration’s chaotic approach to nuclear diplomacy.
...
Having lambasted Barack Obama for what they deemed an overly conciliatory approach to Iran during nuclear talks, Republicans were left struggling to defend Trump’s position.

“I don’t think anybody really believes that North Korea is prepared to denuclearise,” Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona, a Republican critic of Trump, said on NBC’s Meet The Press.

...
Democrats, too, expressed concerns. “I am very worried that he’s going to go into these negotiations and be taken advantage of,” Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts said on CNN.

Warren said Trump should urgently address a lack of senior diplomats who would probably be needed for successful negotiations. The US has no permanent ambassador to South Korea or assistant secretary of state for the region.

That view was echoed by Ben Rhodes, a former senior aide to Obama, who was involved in the Iran deal and said the Trump administration appeared unprepared for discussions of similar gravity.

“There’s nothing more complex than nuclear negotiations; there’s no place in the world more volatile than the Korean peninsula,” Rhodes told ABC. “You cannot just approach this like a reality show.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...orea-kim-jong-un-denuclearisation-pompeo-shah


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> It's not often you, and by you I mean crazy corporatists and warmongers, get to have an idiot that just hand over $1.5T in tax cuts within the first year; add an extra $70B to an over bloated $600B+ military budget; remove practically all regulation...




Yeah they wouldn't want such a prize idiot to be replaced in a hurry.  But I suggest other forces can also come to bear.


----------



## bellenuit

Although everyone would love to see the NK talks succeed, my main fear is that it is very likely NK is not genuine (when have they ever been). If Trump is made to look a fool, being the narcissist he is, he may react irrationally without concern for the consequences.


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> Although everyone would love to see the NK talks succeed, my main fear is that it is very likely NK is not genuine (when have they ever been). If Trump is made to look a fool, being the narcissist he is, he may react irrationally without concern for the consequences.




I guess you have to ask how stable Kim is and what he really wants.

If Russia decided to hold large scale exercises in Indonesia , wouldn't we be worried ?

I think a guarantee of no further exercises and removal of sanctions in return for genuine UN inspections of nuclear facilities in NK would be a good deal all round and would show how serious Kim is.


----------



## explod

bellenuit said:


> Although everyone would love to see the NK talks succeed, my main fear is that it is very likely NK is not genuine (when have they ever been). If Trump is made to look a fool, being the narcissist he is, he may react irrationally without concern for the consequences.



Had this thought also, build up the steam and with the full attention of all then declare war.  Ego's on both sides of this one which does not bode well for any form of equality/agreement.  IMHO


----------



## moXJO

NK just wants to be recognized on the world stage now it has nukes. It needs the sanctions lifted.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Although everyone would love to see the NK talks succeed, my main fear is that it is very likely NK is not genuine (when have they ever been). If Trump is made to look a fool, being the narcissist he is, he may react irrationally without concern for the consequences.




Historians have said that NK had been genuine before, many times. An example being under Bill Clinton... not literally under him, during his admin.

The US, apparently, didn't hold up their end of the deal so the Kims decided to go back to Beijing and nukes.


----------



## SirRumpole

Another Trump aide gets fired, by Twitter...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-14/trump-sacks-rex-tillerson-as-secretary-of-state/9545196


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Another Trump aide gets fired, by Twitter...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-14/trump-sacks-rex-tillerson-as-secretary-of-state/9545196





You really need to watch Designated Survivor ....... life imitating art in many ways. 

We only have to wait for the latest netflix episode to see what Trump will do next.


----------



## PZ99

Trump's biggest gift would be to give the net the flick


----------



## basilio

The choice Donald Trump is making to replace Rex Tillerson is as Secretary of State is downright scary.

*Under Pompeo, a Foreign Policy That Fits the President’s Worldview*
By DAVID E. SANGERMARCH 13, 2018

Continue reading the main story Share This Page
Photo
The sudden firing on Tuesday of Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson, the former Exxon Mobil chief executive who never managed to capture the role of chief diplomat, makes room for a true believer in President Trump’s “America First” views and a bitter critic of the Iran nuclear deal — but also a deep skeptic about whether negotiations will persuade North Korea to abandon its nuclear arsenal.

Mr. Tillerson’s anticipated replacement, Mike Pompeo, the C.I.A. director, was among the harshest critics of the 2015 nuclear agreement that world powers brokered with Iran. If confirmed, Mr. Pompeo will take over the State Department just as the president is weighing whether to ditch the deal altogether — even if it outrages European allies.

The move would also put Mr. Pompeo, who has been immersed in the details of Pyongyang’s nuclear program, in a central role in running the negotiations with Kim Jong-un, the North Korean dictator whom Mr. Trump has said he will meet by May.

For all the criticisms of Mr. Tillerson — and there were many, particularly in the State Department as he moved to slash its size — he was considered a restraining influence on Mr. Trump. Mr. Pompeo, in contrast, has been an enthusiastic defender of the president’s policies, to the point that many senior current and former C.I.A. officials worried that he was far too political for the job.

In his public comments — including his dubious contention on Sunday that Mr. Trump has done more to constrain North Korea than any other president — Mr. Pompeo seemed to know that he would probably soon switch from giving the president his daily intelligence brief to carrying out Mr. Trump’s blunt America First vision worldwide.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/...o-foreign-policy-america-first-tillerson.html


----------



## wayneL

Scary yes,  but for who,  bas?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Scary yes,  but for who,  bas?



Everything with a pulse.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Everything with a pulse.



Well,  Trump et al are a whole lot less scary than most of the other villains and despots around the world.

If course that doesn't fit the PM narrative, did it.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Well,  Trump et al are a whole lot less scary than most of the other villains and despots around the world.
> .




Really and truly Wayne ? You actually believe that? So which other villains and despots have their hands on unlimited nuclear weapons and has fired anyone who seems likely to question their hyper aggressive approaches?  

And then of course choosing a new Secretary of State who is gungho on tearing up the nuclear agreement with Iran (which absolutely no one believes has been violated !) and has only developed military options to deal with North Korea.

Perhaps you should nominate the Don for Father of Year award next. That would also fit the picture wouldn't it ?


----------



## SirRumpole

The beginning of the end for Trump ?

Democrats win Pennsylvania by-election.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...s-democratic-pennsylvania-midterm-win/9550164


----------



## PZ99

basilio said:


> Really and truly Wayne ? You actually believe that? So which other villains and despots have their hands on unlimited nuclear weapons and has fired anyone who seems likely to question their hyper aggressive approaches?



Putin. And maybe the Rocket Man


----------



## basilio

PZ99 said:


> Putin. And maybe the Rocket Man




Can't say I have noticed Putin threatening to totally destroy any particular countries. And to my recollection Kim Jon-un has developed a handful of nuclear missiles to have some sort of credible counter attack capacity to a US that is determined to achieve regime change by whatever means possible.

I'm not suggesting these people are that nice. I just don't believe they are as bat sxhit crazy and therefore dangerous as  Donald Trump.

By the way the article Rumpy posted develops this idea in detail.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...s-democratic-pennsylvania-midterm-win/9550164


----------



## PZ99

basilio said:


> Can't say I have noticed Putin threatening to totally destroy any particular countries. And to my recollection Kim Jon-un has developed a handful of nuclear missiles to have some sort of credible counter attack capacity to a US that is determined to achieve regime change by whatever means possible.
> 
> I'm not suggesting these people are that nice. I just don't believe they are as bat sxhit crazy and therefore dangerous as  Donald Trump.
> 
> By the way the article Rumpy posted develops this idea in detail.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...s-democratic-pennsylvania-midterm-win/9550164



My first thoughts are Crimea and the "reunification" of Korea. China's pretty good at taking land that don't belong to them too. And they're abolishing fixed terms for the president. 

That's for starters.

Actually come to think of it the Bush administration was probably more dangerous - particularly if we believe the 911 conspiracy theories


----------



## basilio

From the ABC article noted above.

"Mr Trump's approval is well below 50 per cent — the death zone for a president's party in the midterm elections. Even in this reliably Republican district, Mr Trump's approval was 49 per cent going into the election, with 49 per cent disapproval. And he still lost the seat.

The deeper issue was captured best by Peggy Noonan, a former speechwriter for Ronald Reagan and hagiographer of his legacy. Writing in the Wall Street Journal last weekend, she caught Mr Trump's attention with these words:

_"Everything you've learned from life as a leader in whatever sphere — business, local public service — tells you this: Crazy doesn't last. Crazy doesn't go the distance. Crazy is an unstable element that, when let loose in an unstable environment, explodes.

"And so your disquiet. Sooner or later something bad will happen — an international crisis, or damaging findings from the special counsel. If the president is the way he is on a good day, what will he be like on a bad day?

"It all feels so dangerous. A president who has relative prosperity and relative peace should be at 60 per cent approval. This is why he is about 20 points lower."

_


----------



## basilio

The presumed new head of the CIA will be Gina Haspel. Her most significant claim to fame was overseeing a 'black site' prison in Thailand where the CIA tortured terrorism suspects.

So what happened under her enthusiastic command?  Hold your stomachs if you want to understand what  was done in the name of the US and the CIA under the person who will now control this organisation.

*What Happened at the Thailand 'Black Site' Run By Trump's CIA Pick*
The Senate's 2014 report on torture details what "enhanced interrogation" really entailed.






Abu Zubaydah, the first prisoner to be subjected to the CIA's "enhanced interrogation techniques" at a CIA black site in Thailand U.S. Central Command / AP / Picsfive / 19srb81 / Shutterstock / The Atlantic


Annabelle Timsit


Text Size
As soon as Gina Haspel got the nomination to become CIA director, America’s debate over the use of torture came roaring back. The country has intermittently reckoned with the legacy of the Bush-era programs that sanctioned the disappearance and torture of terrorism suspects—recently, for instance, when then-candidate Trump declared in 2016 that “torture works” and that he wanted to bring back outlawed techniques like waterboarding and “much worse.” And though the CIA stopped using what it called “enhanced interrogation” methods about a decade ago, Haspel was among those who oversaw their use after 9/11.

* Related Stories *





The 'First Woman CIA Director' Is a Smokescreen
A Controversial Record of Torture, but Maybe Not a Deal-Breaker for Democrats
In 2002, Haspel was in charge of a secret “black site” prison in Thailand where detainees were subject to abusive interrogation techniques. In a 6,700-page classified report on the CIA’s interrogation programs, the Senate Intelligence Committee documented among other things what agency contractors and personnel did at the site to Abu Zubaydah—a Saudi-born Palestinian citizen accused of a “key role” in al-Qaeda, including possible advance knowledge of major attacks—and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri—a Saudi national suspected of involvement in al-Qaeda’s bombing of the American destroyer _USS Cole_ in 2000. (Both are now imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, where they are considered “high value” detainees.)

The committee released a declassified summary of its report in 2014. Among other key conclusions, the committee’s majority held that the CIA had not only misled policymakers and the public about the nature of its interrogation programs, but also that the techniques used were ineffective as well as brutal. Though Haspel’s name never appears in the declassified summary, other reports have identified her as having been in charge of the Thailand site, which the summary refers to as “Detention Site Green.” That site was closed by the end of 2002; it would take another four years for Abu Zubaydah to be transferred from CIA custody to Guantanamo, where he has been incarcerated for more than 11 years.

What follows is an excerpt, lightly edited for length, of the Intelligence Committee’s summary report dealing with what happened at CIA black sites, including at Detention Site Green.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/gina-haspel-black-site-torture-cia/555539/


----------



## wayneL

You and the komrades really have to get past this cultural self loathing bas,  the Americaphobia, the Trumpophobia, the Kimophilia etc. 

Until then I just can't believe Im engaging with a rational person. 

I need not add to what has been said above re the bevy of baddies around the world.


----------



## basilio

Your point of denial Wayne is refusing to recognise the many terrible things done in the name of the US, "democracy",  "wars against terrorism" and the other acts of war committed by the "forces of freedom".

Just because one supports one's country doesn't mean we have to support everything it does or has done.  Just because we are critical of mistakes, often grievous ones, made by a country doesn't mean we have to despise it forever.

Until you can can acknowledge that situation I also can't believe I'm engaging with a rational person.

To go to the particular of Donald Trump however.

*This guy is crazy, dangerous.* That view is held across all sides of US politics. Everyone is holding their breath and praying to whatever God they believe in ... very hard.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Your point of denial Wayne is refusing to recognise the many terrible things done in the name of the US, "democracy",  "wars against terrorism" and the other acts of war committed by the "forces of freedom".
> 
> Just because one supports one's country doesn't mean we have to support everything it does or has done.  Just because we are critical of mistakes, often grievous ones, made by a country doesn't mean we have to despise it forever.
> 
> Until you can can acknowledge that situation I also can't believe I'm engaging with a rational person.
> 
> To go to the particular of Donald Trump however.
> 
> *This guy is crazy, dangerous.* That view is held across all sides of US politics. Everyone is holding their breath and praying to whatever God they believe in ... very hard.



Ridiculous. I reiterate my advice to you,  get past this and the preposterous fallacious argumentative style. 

I have never been a blind USA supporter, ever. You will find evidence of that on these very pages. The US has made some egregious mistakes,  of course.  But holy snapping @ssholes mate,  you wanna look at the alternative and its nine figure body count in the 20the century? 

Puleeezze

Our culture has faults, some big ones too. But at the same time, we (the West)  do have something pretty bloody good,  unprecedented in human history...  And it deserves preserving and defending....

...from the likes of you,  bas. My hope is that we can do that from the center and not from the equally poisonous far right.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Ridiculous. I reiterate my advice to you,  get past this and the preposterous fallacious argumentative style.
> 
> I have never been a blind USA supporter, ever. You will find evidence of that on these very pages. The US has made some egregious mistakes,  of course.  But holy snapping @ssholes mate,  you wanna look at the alternative and its nine figure body count in the 20the century?
> 
> Puleeezze
> 
> Our culture has faults, some big ones too. But at the same time, we (the West)  do have something pretty bloody good,  unprecedented in human history...  And it deserves preserving and defending....
> 
> ...from the likes of you,  bas. My hope is that we can do that from the center and not from the equally poisonous far right.




Wait... weren't the Nazi... mmmm... White and Western? The Ruskies are also White and Christians. Well alright, they left Jesus during Stalin's reign. 

Yea alright, there's the Japs and their massive counts across this side of the world.


As an aside, imperialism... be it White, Yellow, Red or Brown. It's all the same. 

Did you know that right after WWII, the US went through all former occupied countries not divvy up with Stalin and reinstate Nazi collaborators? Overthrow "people's" resistance groups who fought against the Nazi and thought to share the wealth of the local town among each other. 

Same in Korea and other former Imperial Japanese "protectorate". 

It's not that it's a White thing, it's just how imperialism is done. You want resources and control over new found colonies? You better put in office those who know which way the wind blow.


----------



## basilio

Wayne let's accept  for arguments that you have a sort of balanced view about what the US has done well and where it has failed.

I suppose my concern is that in 2018 you take the consistent position that Donald Trump is good for the US and the world.  That despite his policies, his personal behaviour, his incapacity to choose and hold onto cabinet members, his use of the Presidential office to enrich his family, his trade wars, his attacks on NATO, attacks on Mexico, Canada "xhithole" countries  ect, ect, ect - he is in your eyes the best man for the job.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Wait... weren't the Nazi... mmmm... White and Western? The Ruskies are also White and Christians. Well alright, they left Jesus during Stalin's reign.
> 
> Yea alright, there's the Japs and their massive counts across this side of the world.
> 
> 
> As an aside, imperialism... be it White, Yellow, Red or Brown. It's all the same.
> 
> Did you know that right after WWII, the US went through all former occupied countries not divvy up with Stalin and reinstate Nazi collaborators? Overthrow "people's" resistance groups who fought against the Nazi and thought to share the wealth of the local town among each other.
> 
> Same in Korea and other former Imperial Japanese "protectorate".
> 
> It's not that it's a White thing, it's just how imperialism is done. You want resources and control over new found colonies? You better put in office those who know which way the wind blow.




I think Wayne covered the territory of extremes. Using the nazi card is generally verboten on discussion boards.

The rule of law and separation of powers is a British invention that has done it, its colonial legacies and those who have come on board, well for 800 years. Knocking it as somehow associated with genocide, mass atrocities, forced march imperialism, etc is just nonsense IMO


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Wayne let's accept  for arguments that you have a sort of balanced view about what the US has done well and where it has failed.
> 
> I suppose my concern is that in 2018 you take the consistent position that Donald Trump is good for the US and the world.  That despite his policies, his personal behaviour, his incapacity to choose and hold onto cabinet members, his use of the Presidential office to enrich his family, his trade wars, his attacks on NATO, attacks on Mexico, Canada "xhithole" countries  ect, ect, ect - he is in your eyes the best man for the job.



There's that misrepresentative fallacious argument again...  So tiresome. 

In the final analysis there was a binary choice between Trump and Hillary,  that was the reality.  Given that reality,  yes,  Trump absolutely was the best choice. 

The radicals would have been far quieter under Hillary,  but that would have actually been bad. As it stands,  your mob is exposing themselves as the ludicrous cultural vandals you really are. You are doing more to undermine yourselves the more you speak out.  

If there were other viable choices,  then no,  there were other candidates I thought would have been better (BUT NOT BERNIE!)


----------



## Knobby22

Very amusing article from Mish about Kudlow, Trumps new economic advisor.
As Mish said it's hard for economists to get it right but even the worst ones get at least 20-30% of their predictions right -not Kudlow though!
https://www.themaven.net/mishtalk/e...r-economic-advisor-job-62DgjLn5tEK3pHq0HtTb5g


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I think Wayne covered the territory of extremes. Using the nazi card is generally verboten on discussion boards.
> 
> The rule of law and separation of powers is a British invention that has done it, its colonial legacies and those who have come on board, well for 800 years. Knocking it as somehow associated with genocide, mass atrocities, forced march imperialism, etc is just nonsense IMO




Didn't the Roman Republic have all that separation of powers, upper and lower house and all that? 

They had it for some 700 years before that balding warmonger cast the die and crosses the Rubicon. 

But yes, there are sensitive version of history it is not politically correct to discuss, even at arm's length and on that historian "scholarly" plane. I mean, Machiavelli is seen as an evil and cunning SOB all because he drawn lessons from history and discuss it as it was, not as it ought to have been.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Didn't the Roman Republic have all that separation of powers, upper and lower house and all that?
> 
> They had it for some 700 years before that balding warmonger cast the die and crosses the Rubicon.
> 
> But yes, there are sensitive version of history it is not politically correct to discuss, even at arm's length and on that historian "scholarly" plane. I mean, Machiavelli is seen as an evil and cunning SOB all because he drawn lessons from history and discuss it as it was, not as it ought to have been.




I'm surprised you didn't throw in China as the inventor of the parliamentary system there, sometime back when they invented the Hills Hoist.

In the context of the discussion the Nazi card is over the top, even if  Nazis are the parity antithesis of the Greens. 

And in answer to your first question ...no.

You might like this http://www.novaroma.org/camenaeum/RomanTimeline.txt


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I'm surprised you didn't throw in China as the inventor of the parliamentary system there, sometime back when they invented the Hills Hoist.
> 
> In the context of the discussion the Nazi card is over the top, even if  Nazis are the parity antithesis of the Greens.
> 
> And in answer to your first question ...no.
> 
> You might like this http://www.novaroma.org/camenaeum/RomanTimeline.txt




No they didn't invent the Hills Hoist, but did invent the Bamboo straight-line solar-powered dryer that are also organic, and thereby environmentally friendly... and also suit the local supply source thereby reducing logistical expenses and so on and so forth 

Yes... The overthrow of Tarquinius in 509BC and the establishment of the Roman Republic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Roman_monarchy

But yes, it wasn't 700 years, only some 500 before Caesar took control. 

-----------
Chinese philosophers did discuss democracy, rule of law (i.e the Legalist, established Chin by the First Emperor. Overthrew and soon replaced by the Han using the same structure... you know, paying lip service to law and all that is good and fair dinkum)

But you and I both know that "free men" and parliamentary representation were only ever meant to mean rich, landed gentry who are all wise and benevolent. That they only rise to power because the King or Emperor became weak and thus have the domain divvy up.

And Democracy, real democracy where the "stupid, troublesome masses" have a voice and make their wishes felt... that's just a political crisis needing to be crushed.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> No they didn't invent the Hills Hoist, but did invent the Bamboo straight-line solar-powered dryer that are also organic, and thereby environmentally friendly... and also suit the local supply source thereby reducing logistical expenses and so on and so forth
> 
> Yes... The overthrow of Tarquinius in 509BC and the establishment of the Roman Republic:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Roman_monarchy
> 
> But yes, it wasn't 700 years, only some 500 before Caesar took control.
> 
> -----------
> Chinese philosophers did discuss democracy, rule of law (i.e the Legalist, established Chin by the First Emperor. Overthrew and soon replaced by the Han using the same structure... you know, paying lip service to law and all that is good and fair dinkum)
> 
> 
> 
> But you and I both know that "free men" and parliamentary representation were only ever meant to mean rich, landed gentry who are all wise and benevolent. That they only rise to power because the King or Emperor became weak and thus have the domain divvy up.
> 
> And Democracy, real democracy where the "stupid, troublesome masses" have a voice and make their wishes felt... that's just a political crisis needing to be crushed.




The best the Romans had was a ruling Emperor or two consuls, a Senate made up of patricians and magistrates to punish plebs. The Senate had no legislative power.  The consuls and Emperors did what they wanted and the original three assemblies got the heave ho.

I'm fairly sure the Chinese invented the straight line and the sun rising in the east?


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> In the final analysis there was a binary choice between Trump and Hillary,  that was the reality.  Given that reality,  yes,  Trump absolutely was the best choice.




Trump must have been...........the Russians picked him as well.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> The best the Romans had was a ruling Emperor or two consuls, a Senate made up of patricians and magistrates to punish plebs. The Senate had no legislative power.  The consuls and Emperors did what they wanted and the original three assemblies got the heave ho.
> 
> I'm fairly sure the Chinese invented the straight line and the sun rising in the east?




"Roman government was headed by two consuls, elected annually by the citizens and advised by a senate composed of appointed magistrates. As Roman society was very hierarchical by modern standards, the evolution of the Roman government was heavily influenced by the struggle between the patricians, Rome's land-holding aristocracy, who traced their ancestry to the founding of Rome, and the plebeians, the far more numerous citizen-commoners."

Source of Truth: Wiki

That and I also watch the entire series of I, Claudius. And the BBC do not lie. 


Maybe the Chinese did invented the straight line and discovered that the Sun rises in the East. That must be true because Imperial Japan claimed it to be theirs.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Trump must have been...........the Russians picked him as well.



Well, at least they were smarter than an American liberals


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> "Roman government was headed by two consuls, elected annually by the citizens and advised by a senate composed of appointed magistrates. As Roman society was very hierarchical by modern standards, the evolution of the Roman government was heavily influenced by the struggle between the patricians, Rome's land-holding aristocracy, who traced their ancestry to the founding of Rome, and the plebeians, the far more numerous citizen-commoners."
> 
> Source of Truth: Wiki
> 
> That and I also watch the entire series of I, Claudius. And the BBC do not lie.
> 
> 
> Maybe the Chinese did invented the straight line and discovered that the Sun rises in the East. That must be true because Imperial Japan claimed it to be theirs.
> 
> View attachment 86635




You're cherry picking using fabricated Wiki facts. You need to hit the books.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> You're cherry picking using fabricated Wiki facts. You need to hit the books.




Are you pulling a Chinese claim or what?


----------



## Tisme

This has gotta be concerning for all those Greens out there with their predilection for policy making   blast parties. 

http://www.ntd.tv/2018/03/19/trump-to-propose-death-penalties-for-high-intensity-drug-dealers2/



> *Trump to Propose Death Penalties for High-Intensity Drug Dealers*
> By Ivan PentchoukovMARCH 19, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> President Donald Trump before boarding Marine One on the South Lawn of the White House in Washington on Jan. 24, 2018. (Samira Bouaou/The Epoch Times)
> President Donald Trump will roll out a set of proposals to address the opioid epidemic on Monday that includes death sentences for some drug dealers, according to Andrew Bremberg, the director of the White House Domestic Policy Council.
> 
> 
> The president will lay out his comprehensive plan during a speech in New Hampshire, the epicenter of his administration’s battle against opioids and the state where Trump learned about the epidemic.
> 
> The plan has four pillars: law enforcement and interdiction, a large scale educational advertisement campaign focused on prevention, improving the government’s ability to fund treatment, and helping people find jobs while fighting addiction, CNN reported, citing Bremberg and White House counselor Kellyanne Conway.
> 
> Trump has previously spoken about the death penalty for certain drug traffickers and recently highlighted it during a rally in Pennsylvania.
> 
> “A drug dealer will kill 2,000, 3,000, 5,000 people during the course of his or her life,” Trump said.
> 
> “Thousands of people are killed or their lives are destroyed, their families are destroyed. So you can kill thousands of people and go to jail for 30 days,” he added. “They catch a drug dealer, they don’t even put them in jail.”
> 
> 
> The number of Americans dying from drug overdoses quadrupled since 1999, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. An average of 173 people a day died from overdoses in 2016.
> 
> *Recommended Video:* Father Who Lost Child Tells Trump: ‘I remember the hug you gave me’
> 
> Trump pushed Congress to secure $6 billion in funds to address the opioid epidemic. Monday’s speech will outline how the money will be spent to turn the deadly tide.
> 
> Stiff penalties, including capital punishment, would be reserved for the high-intensity dealers and traffickers, not minor offenders, according to a senior administration official.
> 
> “The President thinks that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime,” the official said regarding offenders who “are growing pot in the backyard or a friend who has a low-level possession crime,” according to CNN.
> 
> “His plan will address, and he will address, the stiffening of penalties for the people who are bringing the poison into our communities,” the official said.
> 
> Conway led the White House effort to draft the plan. The work involved several agencies, including the departments of State, Labor, and Housing and Urban Development.
> 
> “We call it the ‘crisis next door’ because everyone knows someone,” Conway said on Sunday, according to CNN. “It is no longer somebody else’s community, somebody else’s kid, somebody else’s co-worker. The opioid crisis is viewed by us at the White House as a nonpartisan problem searching for a bipartisan solution.”


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Are you pulling a Chinese claim or what?






Just make sure its printed by Oxford Press instead of those commie b4stards


----------



## bellenuit

I have always stated that though Hillary is far from being a saint, pretty much all of the allegations against her are invented by the republican right, extreme talk back radio hosts and other media, in particular Fox News. The reason charges have not being brought against her is that there is no evidence of wrong doing and investigations that have been made have exonerated her. 

Now we are getting confirmation of this from the Facebook - Cambridge Analytica scandal.

*Cambridge Analytica bosses claimed they invented 'Crooked Hillary' campaign, won Donald Trump the presidency*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-it-secured-donald-trump-presidentia/9570690


----------



## bellenuit

And as to the role played by Fox News...

‘Ashamed’ Fox News Commentator Quits the ‘Propaganda Machine’

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/20/peters-fox-news


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> I have always stated that though Hillary is far from being a saint, pretty much all of the allegations against her are invented by the republican right, extreme talk back radio hosts and other media, in particular Fox News. The reason charges have not being brought against her is that there is no evidence of wrong doing and investigations that have been made have exonerated her.
> 
> Now we are getting confirmation of this from the Facebook - Cambridge Analytica scandal.
> 
> *Cambridge Analytica bosses claimed they invented 'Crooked Hillary' campaign, won Donald Trump the presidency*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-it-secured-donald-trump-presidentia/9570690




Yes I agree (surprise !).

The rich and powerful facists don't like any threat to their riches and power and will do anything they can to destroy those threats.

We see it all the time here with Murdoch + Singleton vs the Labor Party


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> And as to the role played by Fox News...
> 
> ‘Ashamed’ Fox News Commentator Quits the ‘Propaganda Machine’
> 
> https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/20/peters-fox-news




Can't add anything more to that denouncement.

Will be fascinating to see the Fox response.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> I have always stated that though Hillary is far from being a saint, pretty much all of the allegations against her are invented by the republican right, extreme talk back radio hosts and other media, in particular Fox News. The reason charges have not being brought against her is that there is no evidence of wrong doing and investigations that have been made have exonerated her.
> 
> Now we are getting confirmation of this from the Facebook - Cambridge Analytica scandal.
> 
> *Cambridge Analytica bosses claimed they invented 'Crooked Hillary' campaign, won Donald Trump the presidency*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-it-secured-donald-trump-presidentia/9570690




How easily will the millions of people who have swallowed the "Crooked Hilary" lies hook, line etc  reconsider their views?

And how readily will they reconsider their support for Donald Trump with a rapidly increasing list of law suits, exposes, family junkets coming out ? 

Checkout Russian Roulette.

* Russian Roulette review: as Joe Biden said, 'If this is true, it's treason' *
Michael Isikoff and David Corn lay bare the evidence that Trump and Putin have been striving to collaborate for years

Tue 20 Mar 2018 14.03 EDT   First published on Tue 20 Mar 2018 02.00 EDT


*Shares*
14k




Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump share a moment in Vietnam. Photograph: Mikhail Klimentyev/Tass
Whenever I finish a book like Russian Roulette, I ask myself the same question: why is anyone still debating whether there was collusion between the Russians and Donald Trump?


It was 2013 when Trump first tweeted that he wanted to be Putin’s “best friend”. Later he told Fox Putin looked “like a great leader”. Putin’s constant goals have been to destroy Nato and the EU. Trump was a big advocate of Brexit, which was a body blow to the EU, and in the 2016 campaign he called Nato “obsolete”. Trump began visiting Moscow in 1987 and his on again, off again effort to build a Trump Tower there continued for three decades – right through the presidential election.

In 2006, Trump became executive producer of a Russian version of The Apprentice. Years later he dismissed the massive evidence that Putin routinely orders the murder of journalists and other dissidents, telling MSNBC: “I haven’t seen that. I don’t know that he has. Have you been able to prove that?”

*Then of course there’s the Palm Beach estate he bought for $45m in 2004. After the housing bubble burst, he sold that house for $95m – to a Russian oligarch, Dmitry Rybolovlev.*

Nearly all the other stations of the twisted Trump-Russian cross are covered here, including the famous Trump Tower meeting between Russian emissaries and Donald Trump Jr, Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner. Although the Russians failed at that moment to produce promised dirt on Hillary Clinton, the authors point out that “Trump’s senior advisers now had new reason to believe that Putin’s regime wanted Trump to win and was willing to act clandestinely to boost his chances. The campaign did not report this private Russian outreach to the FBI.”

Russian government officials, Corn and Isikoff write, could well have “interpreted that as a signal that Trump would not mind or protest if Moscow took other actions to benefit the Republican candidate. The Russians had offered to help, and Trump’s campaign had demonstrated a willingness to take what Moscow had to offer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/20/russian-roulette-review-donald-trump-joe-biden-treason


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> Can't add anything more to that denouncement.
> 
> Will be fascinating to see the Fox response.




_“Ralph Peters is entitled to his opinion despite the fact that he's choosing to use it as a weapon in order to gain attention. We are extremely proud of our top-rated primetime hosts and all of our opinion programing,” Fox News said in a statement._

Actually, the following is a better link that the one I gave.
_
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/ralph-peters?utm_term=.ia9g44WDqK#.ba4XzzWdGQ
_


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> How easily will the millions of people who have swallowed the "Crooked Hilary" lies hook, line etc  reconsider their views?




Don't expect anything from them other than to use Trump's mantra: "It's fake news"


----------



## wayneL

The left got out-lefted.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> How easily will the millions of people who have swallowed the "Crooked Hilary" lies hook, line etc  reconsider their views?
> 
> And how readily will they reconsider their support for Donald Trump with a rapidly increasing list of law suits, exposes, family junkets coming out ?
> 
> Checkout Russian Roulette.
> 
> * Russian Roulette review: as Joe Biden said, 'If this is true, it's treason' *
> Michael Isikoff and David Corn lay bare the evidence that Trump and Putin have been striving to collaborate for years
> 
> Tue 20 Mar 2018 14.03 EDT   First published on Tue 20 Mar 2018 02.00 EDT
> 
> 
> *Shares*
> 14k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump share a moment in Vietnam. Photograph: Mikhail Klimentyev/Tass
> Whenever I finish a book like Russian Roulette, I ask myself the same question: why is anyone still debating whether there was collusion between the Russians and Donald Trump?
> 
> 
> It was 2013 when Trump first tweeted that he wanted to be Putin’s “best friend”. Later he told Fox Putin looked “like a great leader”. Putin’s constant goals have been to destroy Nato and the EU. Trump was a big advocate of Brexit, which was a body blow to the EU, and in the 2016 campaign he called Nato “obsolete”. Trump began visiting Moscow in 1987 and his on again, off again effort to build a Trump Tower there continued for three decades – right through the presidential election.
> 
> In 2006, Trump became executive producer of a Russian version of The Apprentice. Years later he dismissed the massive evidence that Putin routinely orders the murder of journalists and other dissidents, telling MSNBC: “I haven’t seen that. I don’t know that he has. Have you been able to prove that?”
> 
> *Then of course there’s the Palm Beach estate he bought for $45m in 2004. After the housing bubble burst, he sold that house for $95m – to a Russian oligarch, Dmitry Rybolovlev.*
> 
> Nearly all the other stations of the twisted Trump-Russian cross are covered here, including the famous Trump Tower meeting between Russian emissaries and Donald Trump Jr, Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner. Although the Russians failed at that moment to produce promised dirt on Hillary Clinton, the authors point out that “Trump’s senior advisers now had new reason to believe that Putin’s regime wanted Trump to win and was willing to act clandestinely to boost his chances. The campaign did not report this private Russian outreach to the FBI.”
> 
> Russian government officials, Corn and Isikoff write, could well have “interpreted that as a signal that Trump would not mind or protest if Moscow took other actions to benefit the Republican candidate. The Russians had offered to help, and Trump’s campaign had demonstrated a willingness to take what Moscow had to offer.”
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/20/russian-roulette-review-donald-trump-joe-biden-treason




Seems strange to me that joyless social engineers like the Guardian,  etc are so poisonous towards Trump, when it is they who advocate a world without borders, but take umbrage at world citizens.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Can't add anything more to that denouncement.
> 
> Will be fascinating to see the Fox response.




"Fox has degenerated from providing a legitimate and much-needed outlet for conservative voices to a mere propaganda machine for a destructive and ethically ruinous administration," wrote Ralph Peters, a Fox News "strategic analyst."

Ummm, so he's complaining that Fox News was legitimate at some stage ....when would that have been?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> "Fox has degenerated from providing a legitimate and much-needed outlet for conservative voices to a mere propaganda machine for a destructive and ethically ruinous administration," wrote Ralph Peters, a Fox News "strategic analyst."
> 
> Ummm, so he's complaining that Fox News was legitimate at some stage ....when would that have been?




When, you know, the president was more polite and not so openly corrupt.

For example, when Jr. and Darth invade Iraq "for freedom" instead of "take the oil";

When all admin quietly tell Saudi Arabia to buy billions upon billions of weapons and jets instead of telling them to do the same now but also have a show-and-tell session to the mass media: Oh look, this young prince is buying this billions in those wonderful bombers; more billions in these fighter jets.. and I'm telling you, we make the best weapons there is in the world.

Come on man, you don't say that stuff outloud like that. Not when there are some public awareness of starving Yemeni being blockaded and bombed with those weapons.


----------



## PZ99

Just remember people, DT is the BBOZ 

http://www.news.com.au/world/breaki...s/news-story/bb6953bb9a75ae679771babe18d51958


----------



## dutchie

Tisme said:


> Ummm, so he's complaining that Fox News was legitimate at some stage ....when would that have been?



I think it was 1776 if I remember rightly.


----------



## Humid

The difference between Fox News and the our abc is you can choose not to pay for it!


----------



## SirRumpole

Humid said:


> The difference between Fox News and the our abc is you can choose not to pay for it!




And the ABC has to try to appeal to everyone, not just the Cory Bernadis and Pauline Hansons.


----------



## basilio

Another day another dizzy range of "it can only be Trump" stories.

1) The non surprise exit of HR Mcmaster as Donald Trumps national security advisor to be replaced by superhawk John Bolton

* John Bolton to replace McMaster as Trump's national security adviser *

Trump announces McMaster’s departure on Twitter
Former UN ambassador John Bolton named as replacement
Ed Pilkington in New York and Julian Borger in Washington

Thu 22 Mar 2018 19.42 EDT   First published on Thu 22 Mar 2018 18.38 EDT


*Shares*
5037



HR McMaster at the White House earlier this week. His departure had been on the cards for some weeks. Photograph: Getty Images
HR McMaster has resigned as Donald Trump’s national security adviser and will be replaced by John Bolton, the hawkish former US ambassador to the United Nations, the president announced on Thursday night.

*Bolton has advocated using military force against Iran and North Korea and has taken a hard line against Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...onald-trump-national-security-adviser-resigns*


----------



## basilio

2) Trumps attorney also pulls the plug on defending the Don as Muellers team closes in.

*I love the president': John Dowd quits as Trump lawyer in Mueller investigation *

77-year-old lead attorney confirms exit from White House team
Dowd said on Saturday he hoped Russia investigation would end
John Dowd, Donald Trump’s lead lawyer in the Mueller investigation into Russian election interference and alleged links between Trump aides and Moscow, resigned his role on Thursday while protesting his “love” for the president.

In an email to the Guardian, Dowd confirmed his departure and said: “I love the president and wish him well.”

*The 77-year-old left Trump’s legal team days after the hiring of Joseph DiGenova, a cable news commentator and former US attorney who has claimed the Mueller investigation is an attempt to frame the president, carried out by the FBI and Department of Justice.*

The shake-up comes with special counsel Robert Mueller reportedly closing in on an interview with Trump and less than two weeks after the president insisted on Twitter he was “VERY happy” with his legal team and said his lawyers were “doing a great job”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/22/john-dowd-donald-trump-mueller-resigns


----------



## basilio

3) The  World Trade War got off to a flying start with China announcing it's response to Donald Trumps tariff measures.  The stock markets are suitably impessed.

* China promises to hit US with tariffs as stocks plunge amid fear of trade war *
Asian shares fall after Donald Trump’s announcement of higher duties on Chinese imports, as Beijing appeals for talks

Martin Farrer and Benjamin Haas

Thu 22 Mar 2018 22.04 EDT   First published on Thu 22 Mar 2018 21.35 EDT


*Shares*
97
 
* Comments*
 364 



Asian markets fell sharply on Friday after a 3% in the Dow Jones in New York. Photograph: Xinhua/REX/Shutterstock
China has retaliated against Donald Trump’s decision to impose tariffs on steel and aluminium by signalling that it will hit US goods such as pork, apples and steel pipe with higher duties.

As Asian stock markets plunged at the prospect of a trade war between the world’s two biggest economies, China’s commerce ministry urged Washington to negotiate a settlement as soon as possible but set no deadline.

A ministry statement on Friday said the higher US tariffs “seriously undermine” the global trading system.

“The Chinese side urges the US side to resolve the concerns of the Chinese side as soon as possible,” the ministry said. It appealed for dialogue “to avoid damage to overall Chinese-US cooperation.”

The Dow Jones industrial average dropped 724 points, or nearly 3%, after Trump’s announcement on Thursday, and Asian markets followed suit in Friday’s session.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...riffs-as-stocks-plunge-amid-fear-of-trade-war


----------



## basilio

4) We learnt more about the Don's deft touch with the ladies. It seems that a woman who sleeps with him and *doesn't take money* is a really nice person.
(But we know this never happened because God has already spoken hasn't he ?)

*Karen McDougal tells CNN Trump once tried to pay her after sex*

Washington (CNN)Donald Trump once tried to offer Karen McDougal money after they had been intimate, the former Playboy model told Anderson Cooper Thursday in an exclusive interview on CNN.
"After we had been intimate, he tried to pay me, and I actually didn't know how to take that," she said of their first alleged sexual encounter.
When Cooper asked if Trump tried to hand her money, McDougal said, "He did."

"I don't even know how to describe the look on my face," she said. "It must have been so sad."
McDougal appeared on CNN to tell her story of an alleged affair she had with now-President Donald Trump over a decade ago and its emotional fallout, as well as to air her grievances with the company she's suing over the story.
As for Trump's wife, Melania, who Trump was married to during the alleged affair, McDougal expressed remorse and apologized.
"What can you say except I'm sorry?" she said. "I'm sorry. I wouldn't want it done to me."
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/22/politics/karen-mcdougal-donald-trump/index.html


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> And the ABC has to try to appeal to everyone, not just the Cory Bernadis and Pauline Hansons.



Ah there you are...  Had to scroll through endless bas hit pieces to find some actual comment. 

The thing is Horace,  they are appealing to their own echo chamber, just like the rest.

I ain't my Auntie,  that is for sure.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> 3) The  World Trade War got off to a flying start with China announcing it's response to Donald Trumps tariff measures.  The stock markets are suitably impessed.
> 
> * China promises to hit US with tariffs as stocks plunge amid fear of trade war *
> Asian shares fall after Donald Trump’s announcement of higher duties on Chinese imports, as Beijing appeals for talks
> 
> Martin Farrer and Benjamin Haas
> 
> Thu 22 Mar 2018 22.04 EDT   First published on Thu 22 Mar 2018 21.35 EDT
> 
> 
> *Shares*
> 97
> 
> * Comments*
> 364
> 
> 
> 
> Asian markets fell sharply on Friday after a 3% in the Dow Jones in New York. Photograph: Xinhua/REX/Shutterstock
> China has retaliated against Donald Trump’s decision to impose tariffs on steel and aluminium by signalling that it will hit US goods such as pork, apples and steel pipe with higher duties.
> 
> As Asian stock markets plunged at the prospect of a trade war between the world’s two biggest economies, China’s commerce ministry urged Washington to negotiate a settlement as soon as possible but set no deadline.
> 
> A ministry statement on Friday said the higher US tariffs “seriously undermine” the global trading system.
> 
> “The Chinese side urges the US side to resolve the concerns of the Chinese side as soon as possible,” the ministry said. It appealed for dialogue “to avoid damage to overall Chinese-US cooperation.”
> 
> The Dow Jones industrial average dropped 724 points, or nearly 3%, after Trump’s announcement on Thursday, and Asian markets followed suit in Friday’s session.
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...riffs-as-stocks-plunge-amid-fear-of-trade-war




This sounds pretty serious. I sympathise with Trump's desire to reduce the US trade deficit, and I think that a "whatever their tarriffs , ours will be the same" is a fair policy.

It's had an immediate effect on the stock market though, whether they will settle down or will move towards a recession is a worry for us all.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> This sounds pretty serious. I sympathise with Trump's desire to reduce the US trade deficit, and I think that a "whatever their tarriffs , ours will be the same" is a fair policy.
> 
> It's had an immediate effect on the stock market though, whether they will settle down or will move towards a recession is a worry for us all.




I don't think it's out of concern for trade deficit/surpluses. I mean, if they care about such thing they wouldn't have given that $1.5Trillion tax cuts and those hundreds of billions in military spending, or that wall. 

It's just their way of confronting China. I was told that the TPP was designed to do that but Trump pulled out for some reason, leaving the smaller pacific countries to deal with China. 

Read that there's now a Yuan-based oil/gas exchange. The petro-dollar might no longer be what it used to, not as far as Asia/pacific is concern. Heard that Saddam and Qaddafi was taken out because they were tyrants, jk, because they want to move their oil off of the US dollar. 

China's new exchange make that kind of trade a whole lot easier... might mean that all the sanctions against rouge states (who tend to have a lot of oil and don't want to give it away) can just be shrugged off.


----------



## basilio

World Trade War X is not to be sneezed at. Europe is now reassessing it's position with regard to US trade. This is serious xshit. When the eggs get broken they don't magically fix themselves. Destroying the accepted understandings of international trade creates very large risks. 

New tariffs, retaliation, tit for tat, these all create huge uncertainty in the business world.

I wonder how well placed the US is to stand a run on the dollar or a refusal of China/Japan to continue buyig US securities ? Interesting time to find out.

*US trade war: global shares plummet as China signals tariff retaliation – business live*
European shares fall after a huge sell-off overnight in Asia, reflecting investor fears over US-China tit-for-tat measures. Follow all the action here


Trump imposes tariffs on China

Global markets plunge as China reacts
EU calls for permanent exemption from US tariffs
Nikkei down 4% as investors fear damaging confrontation
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...shares-plummet-china-signals-retaliation-live


----------



## IFocus

Trump's administration, what a mess plus now we are almost certain to have a war with either NK or Iran or both at the same time.

Mean while the trump apologists just keep cheering.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> Trump's administration, what a mess plus now we are almost certain to have a war with either NK or Iran or both at the same time.
> 
> Mean while the trump apologists just keep cheering.



Hope we don't join in.


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> Hope we don't join in.




We won't need to "join in".  If there is any sort of shooting war in Korea the destruction of South Korea and surrounding areas will have an immediate and profound effect on OZ and everybody else. 

Just for a start.
*Almost Half of Australia’s Petrol, Diesel and Jet Fuel Imports come from South Korea and Japan*
By Matt Mushalik, originally published by Crude Oil Peak

August 21, 2017
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2...esel-jet-fuel-imports-come-south-korea-japan/


----------



## basilio

I wonder if there could be fundamental shift in alliances in the Korean Peninsula with the change in guard at the White House?

With John Bolton,  Mike Pompeo  and Donald Trump running an ultra aggressive foreign policy program maybe South and North Korea decide a unified approach is the safest option. China and Japan might also agree on such an approach.  Would the US attack North Korea in such a situation ?


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> I wonder if there could be fundamental shift in alliances in the Korean Peninsula with the change in guard at the White House?
> 
> With John Bolton,  Mike Pompeo  and Donald Trump running an ultra aggressive foreign policy program maybe South and North Korea decide a unified approach is the safest option. China and Japan might also agree on such an approach.  Would the US attack North Korea in such a situation ?




Maybe Korea is a minor issue compared to what Russia is planning.

Trump's ambivalence towards NATO has created a gap that Putin can move his troops through and recapture the glory of the USSR.


----------



## IFocus

North Korea will look at regime survival at all costs and I would expect if Trump looks seriously at military options  then NK will move quickly to get into bed with SK and China big time..........until it all blows over.
Iran is a different story that gets really really messy thanks to Bush (note the Republicans keep blaming Obama) Iran is successfully extending its power and influence and is a lot harder nut to crack.


----------



## basilio

I think the start of the US Trade war and the establisment of a gungho war cabinet will cause some major changes in world political alliances. I wonder if Europe and Asia will make some decisions about substantially redefining the US in it's trade and military treaties ? There would certainly be some initial pain but longer term self sufficiency and trade security  could be enhanced.

In effect we could end up with trade blocs.  Would Americian industry like to see the US out of world trade with steep tarrifs and import quotas?


----------



## moXJO

NK won't go to war. They wouldn't last a week unless China supplies them.

Its the power struggles that are the danger. Russia, China, Middle East  all seem to be throwing shade at the west.


----------



## Tink

President Trump's Plan to Stop Opioid Abuse and Help Build a Drug-Free Society

_https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-stop-opioid-abuse-reduce-drug-supply-demand/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/_


----------



## PZ99

Tink said:


> President Trump's Plan to Stop Opioid Abuse and Help Build a Drug-Free Society
> 
> _https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-stop-opioid-abuse-reduce-drug-supply-demand/
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/_



Do you support the death penalty underlying this policy?


----------



## Tink

As I mentioned,

_In his first year President Trump has become the most pro-LIFE president in the history of the United States.
_
*We are protecting the sanctity of life and the family as the foundation of our society*
_
Faith, Family, Truth, Freedom._

----------------

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...s-or-a-sign-of-the-welfare-state.31012/page-5_


----------



## PZ99

President Trump on Monday will release a plan to combat the opioid epidemic that includes the controversial idea of using the death penalty for some drug traffickers.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...ase-plan-addressing-opioid-epidemic-on-monday

I'm neither here or there with it. But it's a stretch to tag a death penalty as pro-life.

Maybe it's life for pro's and death for everyone else that underpins his born to rule mentality


----------



## SirRumpole

PZ99 said:


> President Trump on Monday will release a plan to combat the opioid epidemic that includes the controversial idea of using the death penalty for some drug traffickers.




The death penalty hasn't worked in Bali. Idiots still try to smuggle drugs.

It seems to be working in the Philippines, but that's a different story.


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> President Trump on Monday will release a plan to combat the opioid epidemic that includes the controversial idea of using the death penalty for some drug traffickers.
> 
> http://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...ase-plan-addressing-opioid-epidemic-on-monday
> 
> I'm neither here or there with it. But it's a stretch to tag a death penalty as pro-life.
> 
> Maybe it's life for pro's and death for everyone else that underpins his born to rule mentality





A precursary look at Tink's link states: "DOJ will seek the death penalty against drug traffickers, *where appropriate under current law*."

How does that underpin the policy?


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> A precursary look at Tink's link states: "DOJ will seek the death penalty against drug traffickers, *where appropriate under current law*."
> 
> How does that underpin the policy?



"Strengthen criminal penalties for dealing and trafficking in fentanyl and other opioids"

How does it not underpin the policy?


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> "Strengthen criminal penalties for dealing and trafficking in fentanyl and other opioids"
> 
> How does it not underpin the policy?




Well on that basis there are so many underpinnings I'm wondering what the slab looks like, let alone the structure.


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> Well on that basis there are so many underpinnings I'm wondering what the slab looks like, let alone the structure.



Here you go mate


----------



## basilio

Madelaine Albright has just written a book on the rise of Fascism around the world.  She offers particular concern about the role of the Trump administration in fostering the rise of Fascism.

*Will We Stop Trump
Before It’s Too Late?*
Fascism poses a more serious threat now than
at any time since the end of World War II.

By MADELEINE ALBRIGHT APRIL 6, 2018

Continue reading the main story Share This Page
On April 28, 1945 — 73 years ago — Italians hung the corpse of their former dictator Benito Mussolini upside down next to a gas station in Milan. Two days later, Adolf Hitler committed suicide in his bunker beneath the streets of war-ravaged Berlin. Fascism, it appeared, was dead.

To guard against a recurrence, the survivors of war and the Holocaust joined forces to create the United Nations, forge global financial institutions and — through the Universal Declaration of Human Rights — strengthen the rule of law. In 1989, the Berlin Wall came down and the honor roll of elected governments swelled not only in Central Europe, but also Latin America, Africa and Asia. Almost everywhere, it seemed, dictators were out and democrats were in. Freedom was ascendant.

Today, we are in a new era, testing whether the democratic banner can remain aloft amid terrorism, sectarian conflicts, vulnerable borders, rogue social media and the cynical schemes of ambitious men. The answer is not self-evident. We may be encouraged that most people in most countries still want to live freely and in peace, but there is no ignoring the storm clouds that have gathered. In fact, fascism — and the tendencies that lead toward fascism — pose a more serious threat now than at any time since the end of World War II.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/sunday/trump-fascism-madeleine-albright.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Madelaine Albright has just written a book on the rise of Fascism around the world.  She offers particular concern about the role of the Trump administration in fostering the rise of Fascism.
> 
> *Will We Stop Trump*
> *Before It’s Too Late?*
> Fascism poses a more serious threat now than
> at any time since the end of World War II.
> 
> By MADELEINE ALBRIGHT APRIL 6, 2018
> 
> Continue reading the main story Share This Page
> On April 28, 1945 — 73 years ago — Italians hung the corpse of their former dictator Benito Mussolini upside down next to a gas station in Milan. Two days later, Adolf Hitler committed suicide in his bunker beneath the streets of war-ravaged Berlin. Fascism, it appeared, was dead.
> 
> To guard against a recurrence, the survivors of war and the Holocaust joined forces to create the United Nations, forge global financial institutions and — through the Universal Declaration of Human Rights — strengthen the rule of law. In 1989, the Berlin Wall came down and the honor roll of elected governments swelled not only in Central Europe, but also Latin America, Africa and Asia. Almost everywhere, it seemed, dictators were out and democrats were in. Freedom was ascendant.
> 
> Today, we are in a new era, testing whether the democratic banner can remain aloft amid terrorism, sectarian conflicts, vulnerable borders, rogue social media and the cynical schemes of ambitious men. The answer is not self-evident. We may be encouraged that most people in most countries still want to live freely and in peace, but there is no ignoring the storm clouds that have gathered. In fact, fascism — and the tendencies that lead toward fascism — pose a more serious threat now than at any time since the end of World War II.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/sunday/trump-fascism-madeleine-albright.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright



Far Left and right are looking the same.

You actually mimic a lot of fascist behavior bas....


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Madelaine Albright has just written a book on the rise of Fascism around the world.  She offers particular concern about the role of the Trump administration in fostering the rise of Fascism.
> 
> *Will We Stop Trump*
> *Before It’s Too Late?*
> Fascism poses a more serious threat now than
> at any time since the end of World War II.
> 
> By MADELEINE ALBRIGHT APRIL 6, 2018
> 
> Continue reading the main story Share This Page
> On April 28, 1945 — 73 years ago — Italians hung the corpse of their former dictator Benito Mussolini upside down next to a gas station in Milan. Two days later, Adolf Hitler committed suicide in his bunker beneath the streets of war-ravaged Berlin. Fascism, it appeared, was dead.
> 
> To guard against a recurrence, the survivors of war and the Holocaust joined forces to create the United Nations, forge global financial institutions and — through the Universal Declaration of Human Rights — strengthen the rule of law. In 1989, the Berlin Wall came down and the honor roll of elected governments swelled not only in Central Europe, but also Latin America, Africa and Asia. Almost everywhere, it seemed, dictators were out and democrats were in. Freedom was ascendant.
> 
> Today, we are in a new era, testing whether the democratic banner can remain aloft amid terrorism, sectarian conflicts, vulnerable borders, rogue social media and the cynical schemes of ambitious men. The answer is not self-evident. We may be encouraged that most people in most countries still want to live freely and in peace, but there is no ignoring the storm clouds that have gathered. In fact, fascism — and the tendencies that lead toward fascism — pose a more serious threat now than at any time since the end of World War II.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/sunday/trump-fascism-madeleine-albright.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright




A woman who was raised Catholic, practices Anglican dogma and feeds off her Jewish roots to succour uncritical fame.

United Nations was wasn't created by Jewish Holocaust survivors, it was 50 nations including, in no small part Australia and communist Russia out to provide a forum for peaceful friendly relations, security and cooperation; a circuit breaker for tensions between sovereign nations. It wasn't about facism, jews and democratic nations.


----------



## noirua

Freedom of Speech. Yes, you have that providing you check first that you are allowed to say it.


----------



## noirua

noirua said:


> Freedom of Speech. Yes, you have that providing you check first that you are allowed to say it.




If you cant say it then people look at you wondering what you are really thinking.  That leads to people not saying what they think. I say, "Each to their own", more often than before and shrug my shoulders. Perhaps that shrug, carefully timed, says everything.


----------



## noirua

All in all President Trump has made politics more exciting. Even though he is really a business man and not a politician.


----------



## bellenuit

noirua said:


> All in all President Trump has made politics more exciting. Even though he is really a business man and not a politician.




Yeah. Like a circus. The clown is on stage.


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Yeah. Like a circus. The clown is on stage.



I still think the clown was a better bet than the evil witch.


----------



## noirua

Trump is playing games for real. If one side is bluffing in a real world with a big army and rockets then you have to bluff with a bigger army and many more rockets. The small guy bluffing has to look to those close by who are angry or afraid and placate them and visit them in an act of pretend friendship. The position becomes a friendly deadlock as one side tries to act out a better role than the other.

When a meeting takes place both seem to have the same friends. So an agreement takes place to leave things as they are and pretend your army and rockets are there purely for protection. As they are all meeting and smiling away they all realise they have pretend friends everywhere.

Both pronounce how well things went and the great achievements made.  All the pretend friends hail the great success and congratulate each other. Life wanders on.


----------



## luutzu

noirua said:


> Trump is playing games for real. If one side is bluffing in a real world with a big army and rockets then you have to bluff with a bigger army and many more rockets. The small guy bluffing has to look to those close by who are angry or afraid and placate them and visit them in an act of pretend friendship. The position becomes a friendly deadlock as one side tries to act out a better role than the other.
> 
> When a meeting takes place both seem to have the same friends. So an agreement takes place to leave things as they are and pretend your army and rockets are there purely for protection. As they are all meeting and smiling away they all realise they have pretend friends everywhere.
> 
> Both pronounce how well things went and the great achievements made.  All the pretend friends hail the great success and congratulate each other. Life wanders on.




I think that if you're a big guy with big guns, you can own the small guys by being their friend and providing them protection. That's it.

There is no need to tweet about your red button being bigger, no need for name calling. It's beneath you.

As to why the US want to talk and "make peace" with N.Korea... I couldn't figure it out really. Not that I should be able to, but as an idiot on the street, the move just doesn't make sense to me.

I mean... the only reason for the US, or anyone, wanting the likes of North Korea to disarm its WMD is so that it could carpet bomb the place and liberate it whenever it wants to. 

That's pretty much the only reason because no small dictator would ever dare attack a country like the US.. unless it's suicidal. 

So to disarm lil Kim with offer of peace and permitting others to trade with it... that doesn't bring the US any benefit really. I can't bomb and take over N.Korea because that will bring in the Chinese. 

As events in Syria and Iraq have shown, inviting a properly armed nuclear power to fight against you isn't a smart move. No one but the military industrial complex would win that kind of war.

So is the US planning to attack N.Korea one day? That just doesn't make sense... I mean, China back in the 50s with its peasant army would still go over to push the US back. They're a lot stronger now.

Then to not attack but make peace and remove the "threat" from N.Korea... What then would be the reason for all those military bases and personnel on the peninsular? All over South Korea, Japan etc.?

You can't say it's to keep China in check 'cause that's not cool. 

Anyway...


----------



## Tink

Opioids killed more people last year than either car accidents or gun violence.
_
https://www.crisisnextdoor.gov/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wh

https://www.whitehouse.gov/_

-----------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/latest-tweets-by-the-donald.33901/


----------



## PZ99

LOL. So if the cars and guns don't kill 'em the opioid will


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> Opioids killed more people last year than either car accidents or gun violence.
> _
> https://www.crisisnextdoor.gov/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wh
> 
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/_
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/latest-tweets-by-the-donald.33901/




That's why The Orange Emperor is thinking aloud about the death penalty for drug pushers. 

As we all know, the only reason people take drugs is because it's available. So you get tough on the pushers because they're having it too easy under Obama. Problem solved.

If not solved, you can always declare a second war on drugs and send more Marines to South America 


It's freakin scary that people like Trump are out there making decisions affecting lives.


----------



## Tink

I have put this up before, Luutzu.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> I have put this up before, Luutzu.





Pro-Life, for sure.

That's why Trump and the Republicans are banning assault rifles and making it harder to buy guns so that kids and Americans don't get shot whenever, whereever. Oh wait. 

Pro-life that's why Trump and the Republicans are curbing the use of fossil to transition towards renewables just in case Climate Change is real and "natural" disasters don't kill and destroy life. Oh.

Pro-life that's why Trump and the Republicans take some from those who have more money than they can ever know what to do with... to give to those poor and needy, living day to day; to help insure or pay for medical care... Oh.

But they do give food to sustain the kids and widows and elderly... Oh wait. They take those funds away to give tax cuts to billionaires and more money than even the generals at the Pentagon asked for. 

I'm getting a sense that they're Pro something other than life here.


----------



## luutzu

PZ99 said:


> LOL. So if the cars and guns don't kill 'em the opioid will




Not sure but I heard that the current opioids crisis are mainly from the *legal* drugs rather than the illegal ones.

One family in the US pretty much dominate that legal opiod/painkiller drugs. Market it deceptively to doctors and GPs and chemists. Get the entire nation hooked on it. 

But it's probably just the Mexicans and a few Mr White breaking bad that's the problem. I mean, the other ones fund museums and collect fine arts so they can't be bad.


----------



## Tink

You are entitled to your view, Luutzu.

I am PRO FAMILY.
RESPONSIBILITY.

Donald Trump has given RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


> You are entitled to your view, Luutzu.
> 
> I am PRO FAMILY.
> RESPONSIBILITY.
> 
> Donald Trump has given RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.




What religious liberty?

Does the Pope approve of Trump and his policies? Don't think he does.

Trump sleeps around, cheats on his wife; divorces one (older) wife for another (younger, blonder) ones... So where's the family value?

He grabs women, sexually assault those who he couldn't bed. 

Just about all of his policies, the actual law as opposed to the talks and photo ops, are anti "Christian Value" and destroys life.

He tax the poor and give to the rich. Jesus wouldn't have done that.

He expand wars and its funding. Talks about nuclear war like it's a game... for money, he and his goons deregulate environmental protection, whatever is left of it. etc. etc. etc.

He's pulling the biggest con in world history.


----------



## McLovin

Tink said:


> Donald Trump has given RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.




I bet that was what was going through his mind when he was raw dogging that pr0n star.


----------



## Tink

As I said here ---

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...-trump-take-us-sic.30557/page-112#post-973306

----------------------------

_https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/no-american-choose-faith-law/

    As I said to Basilio,

    bring them to Melbourne, and you will see the stalinists/political terrorists that have hijacked our state.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-6
    ----------------------------

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-trump-champion-religious-freedom/_


----------



## PZ99

You are entitled to your view, Tink.

If you are pro Donald Trump and are happy to endorse his evils in the name of religious freedom that's fine with me.

He ain't my master


----------



## SirRumpole

PZ99 said:


> You are entitled to your view, Tink.
> 
> If you are pro Donald Trump and are happy to endorse his evils in the name of religious freedom that's fine with me.
> 
> He ain't my master




It's interesting how people are willing to forgive a wide range of sins and latch on to one thing about a person that appeals to them.

Without wanting to invoke Godwin's law, that how tyrants rise to power.


----------



## Tink

As I have said, our country has a Christian heritage.
The Lord's Prayer is in Parliament and the preamble is Almighty God.

Whether we are black, white, we are all --

Ladies and Gentlemen.

This is my view.
---------------------

Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom.


----------



## Junior

Tink said:


> As I have said, our country has a Christian heritage.
> The Lord's Prayer is in Parliament and the preamble is Almighty God.
> 
> Whether we are black, white, we are all --
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen.
> 
> This is my view.
> ---------------------
> 
> Faith - Family - Truth - Freedom.




Except this guy.  I doubt he's every been described as a gentlemen.


----------



## wayneL

The Trump haters forget what the alternative was... also based on ideological grounds I guess.


----------



## wayneL

Trump hating is also largely a manifestation of uncritical and pathological virtue signalling.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> The Trump haters forget what the alternative was... also based on ideological grounds I guess.




And she would be worse because ?


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> Trump hating is also largely a manifestation of uncritical and pathological virtue signalling.




Or perhaps just the realisation that he is an all-round rotten and unpleasant guy, who lacks the intelligence, demeanour and relevant experience required for the job.

I'm not a Hilary fan, but she didn't get the job, so I don't see the point in discussing whether she theoretically would have been better or worse than Trump.


----------



## PZ99

wayneL said:


> Trump hating is also largely a manifestation of uncritical and pathological virtue signalling.



Trump worshiping is a manifestation of blind faith divorced from reality epitomised by name calling of anyone who dares to disagree with him of his followers.


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> Or perhaps just the realisation that he is an all-round rotten and unpleasant guy, who lacks the intelligence, demeanour and relevant experience required for the job.
> 
> I'm not a Hilary fan, but she didn't get the job, so I don't see the point in discussing whether she theoretically would have been better or worse than Trump.



That's not very analytical Jr. And really does nothing to alleviate my suspicions of a raging bias.


----------



## wayneL

PZ99 said:


> Trump worshiping is a manifestation of blind faith divorced from reality epitomised by name calling of anyone who dares to disagree with him of his followers.



Trump has clear faults, but an argumentative fallacy there methinks. 

Don't see any Trump "worshippers" on this forum.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Don't see any Trump "worshippers" on this forum.




Besides yourself ?


----------



## wayneL

Dumb comment bro


----------



## PZ99

wayneL said:


> Trump has clear faults, but an argumentative fallacy there methinks.
> 
> Don't see any Trump "worshippers" on this forum.



Don't see any "haters" here either.


----------



## luutzu

*Russia warns any U.S. missiles fired at Syria will be shot down*

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Russia has warned that any U.S. missiles fired at Syria over a suspected chemical weapons attack on a rebel enclave would be shot down and the launch sites targeted, raising the possibility of a U.S.-Russian confrontation.

Issuing the warning on Tuesday evening, the Russian ambassador to Lebanon also said such a clash should be avoided and Moscow was ready for negotiations. But his remarks could raise fears of direct conflict for the first time between major powers backing opposing sides in Syria’s protracted civil war.

Moscow and Washington sparred at the United Nations on Tuesday over the use of chemical weapons in Syria as Washington and its allies considered whether to strike at Syrian government forces over the alleged poison gas assault.

At least 60 people were killed in Saturday’s suspected chemical weapons attack on the town of Douma, Syrian relief workers said. An estimated 500 people were being treated for “symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”, the World Health Organization said on Wednesday.

The Syrian government and Russia say the reports are bogus. The Kremlin said on Wednesday it hoped all sides involved in Syria would avoid doing anything that could destabilize an already fragile situation in the Middle East, and made clear it strongly opposed any U.S. strike on its ally.

After the attack, the rebel group holed up in Douma - Jaish al-Islam - finally agreed to withdraw from the town. That sealed a big victory for President Bashar al-Assad, who has now crushed the rebellion in the eastern Ghouta region near Damascus. .......
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ired-at-syria-will-be-shot-down-idUSKBN1HI1BY

-------------

So. Trump wants to pull the US out of Syria... I didn't think they're supposed to, officially, be in Syria but anyway... 

When Trump the president tweet and rally that the US should withdraw, funny how Assad and the Russian decided to go gas people with chemical weapons, forcing the US to stay in again.

I don't know who committed that and not picking sides here, but doesn't it seem suspicious? This is the second time it happened. The last time Trump sent some 70+ Tomahawk into Syria.

It just doesn't make sense for Russia/Assad to do chemical warfare when not doing it kill just as many and also not give Trump and the US any excuse to stay. Not that you'd need an excuse to liberate people and bring democracy and stuff whether they like it or not.

But now that Russia is warning that it will shoot both the missile/s and target the base from which it came... is Trump going to test their words and slap them across the face. 

As long as this doesn't go nuclear, Beijing is definitely laughing their way to total hemispheric domination of Asia.

It might be like the European powers during WWI and WWII... all fighting each other while Uncle Sam keep watch and industrialise. Then join the party a bit late and take all the loots in the aftermath.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> *Russia warns any U.S. missiles fired at Syria will be shot down*
> 
> BEIRUT (Reuters) - Russia has warned that any U.S. missiles fired at Syria over a suspected chemical weapons attack on a rebel enclave would be shot down and the launch sites targeted, raising the possibility of a U.S.-Russian confrontation.
> 
> Issuing the warning on Tuesday evening, the Russian ambassador to Lebanon also said such a clash should be avoided and Moscow was ready for negotiations. But his remarks could raise fears of direct conflict for the first time between major powers backing opposing sides in Syria’s protracted civil war.
> 
> Moscow and Washington sparred at the United Nations on Tuesday over the use of chemical weapons in Syria as Washington and its allies considered whether to strike at Syrian government forces over the alleged poison gas assault.
> 
> At least 60 people were killed in Saturday’s suspected chemical weapons attack on the town of Douma, Syrian relief workers said. An estimated 500 people were being treated for “symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”, the World Health Organization said on Wednesday.
> 
> The Syrian government and Russia say the reports are bogus. The Kremlin said on Wednesday it hoped all sides involved in Syria would avoid doing anything that could destabilize an already fragile situation in the Middle East, and made clear it strongly opposed any U.S. strike on its ally.
> 
> After the attack, the rebel group holed up in Douma - Jaish al-Islam - finally agreed to withdraw from the town. That sealed a big victory for President Bashar al-Assad, who has now crushed the rebellion in the eastern Ghouta region near Damascus. .......
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ired-at-syria-will-be-shot-down-idUSKBN1HI1BY
> 
> -------------
> 
> So. Trump wants to pull the US out of Syria... I didn't think they're supposed to, officially, be in Syria but anyway...
> 
> When Trump the president tweet and rally that the US should withdraw, funny how Assad and the Russian decided to go gas people with chemical weapons, forcing the US to stay in again.
> 
> I don't know who committed that and not picking sides here, but doesn't it seem suspicious? This is the second time it happened. The last time Trump sent some 70+ Tomahawk into Syria.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense for Russia/Assad to do chemical warfare when not doing it kill just as many and also not give Trump and the US any excuse to stay. Not that you'd need an excuse to liberate people and bring democracy and stuff whether they like it or not.
> 
> But now that Russia is warning that it will shoot both the missile/s and target the base from which it came... is Trump going to test their words and slap them across the face.
> 
> As long as this doesn't go nuclear, Beijing is definitely laughing their way to total hemispheric domination of Asia.
> 
> It might be like the European powers during WWI and WWII... all fighting each other while Uncle Sam keep watch and industrialise. Then join the party a bit late and take all the loots in the aftermath.



The whole thing is very sus. Apparently low casualties, suspicious timing and nothing to gain from using them.

What tactical advantage do you gain from gassing women and children?
Unless you are on the losing side and need a boost via bombs by proxy.


----------



## moXJO

Junior said:


> Or perhaps just the realisation that he is an all-round rotten and unpleasant guy, who lacks the intelligence, demeanour and relevant experience required for the job.
> 
> I'm not a Hilary fan, but she didn't get the job, so I don't see the point in discussing whether she theoretically would have been better or worse than Trump.



Trump is exactly what the world needed. America's Bull$hit is out in the open for the world to see. Hillary would have hid the crap America does behind fake smiles. As would the rest of the presidents that followed her.

Trump will change politics for some time. Hopefully what comes next will be better. But for now I hope Trump goes through US government departments like a wrecking ball.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The whole thing is very sus. Apparently low casualties, suspicious timing and nothing to gain from using them.
> 
> What tactical advantage do you gain from gassing women and children?
> Unless you are on the losing side and need a boost via bombs by proxy.




Yea doesn't make much sense.

If I have a high opinion of Trump I'd suspect that his talks of withdrawing was a ploy to go deeper into Syria. That is, he's playing the reluctant warrior president wanting peace and keeping the troops home... But the animal Assad keep gasing his rebels so what can we do but go all in? 

But it's most likely he just want to get the heck out of Syria but others thought otherwise. 

Looks like the US is assembling another alliance of the willing to bomb Syria and take on Russia/Iran (and possibly some Chinese aid behind the scene). 

Russia have lost pratically all its former Eastern European colonies. All they have left to keep the barbarians away from the gates are the Ukraine, Syria and Georgia around there right? They've lost Libya so don't think they can afford to lose this Syrian footing in the Meds.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Trump is exactly what the world needed. America's Bull$hit is out in the open for the world to see. Hillary would have hid the crap America does behind fake smiles. As would the rest of the presidents that followed her.
> 
> Trump will change politics for some time. Hopefully what comes next will be better. But for now I hope Trump goes through US government departments like a wrecking ball.




Like Obama and Billy Clinton. They both pulled the same bs as Dubya and Trump, but does it so smoothly nobody but the victims notices. Maybe a few hippies but that's about it.


----------



## explod

Could the be some truth in this:


"Former UK Ambassador to Syria: Syrian Chemical Weapons Attack Was STAGED By Islamic Jihadi Propagandists, No One Actually Died"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...ical-weapons-attack-was-staged-islamic-jihadi


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> Trump worshiping is a manifestation of blind faith divorced from reality epitomised by name calling of anyone who dares to disagree with him of his followers.




I don't name call the lower than a snakes belly deadsh1ts (aka Lenin's "useful idiots") who pray at the alter of cultural marxism, but I don't worship the go you good thing Trump either.


----------



## moXJO

explod said:


> Could the be some truth in this:
> 
> 
> "Former UK Ambassador to Syria: Syrian Chemical Weapons Attack Was STAGED By Islamic Jihadi Propagandists, No One Actually Died"
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...ical-weapons-attack-was-staged-islamic-jihadi



Every time a supposed pro govt chemical attack occurs,  the rebels just happens to be losing a major city stronghold.
They just lost Douma,  the chemical attack was supposedly in the last days of fighting.
It was the same in previous attacks. Rebels had the $hit bombed out of them and were about to lose a city and bam- chemical attack.
Fail to see what possible reason there was to use chemicals.

When Douma was lost. The Russian and pro govt forces made a deal with the rebels to hand back medium and heavy weapons. And let them retreat. Hardly the actions of someone that would gas people.


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> I don't name call the lower than a snakes belly deadsh1ts (aka Lenin's "useful idiots") who pray at the alter of cultural marxism, but I don't worship the go you good thing Trump either.



I don't like cultural Marxism anymore than you but that's not the point. The point is if you disagree with Trump or Abbott or their supporters or whoever you are looked upon as some inferior hater with tall poppy syndrome and an ulterior motive to destroy Western culture by throwing darts at the Corporatocracy. It's a very simplistic and erroneous cop out overused on forums of late.
Another name for it is passive trolling.

I'll judge Donald Trump on his results. So far I think they're crap but if he can do something useful like getting NK de-nuked through negotiation rather than force then I'll give him due credit.

Until then...


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> I don't like cultural Marxism anymore than you but that's not the point. The point is if you disagree with Trump or Abbott or their supporters or whoever you are looked upon as some inferior hater with tall poppy syndrome and an ulterior motive to destroy Western culture by throwing darts at the Corporatocracy. It's a very simplistic and erroneous cop out overused on forums of late.
> Another name for it is passive trolling.
> 
> I'll judge Donald Trump on his results. So far I think they're crap but if he can do something useful like getting NK de-nuked through negotiation rather than force then I'll give him due credit.
> 
> Until then...




Wot?

I don't think I'm a passive troller ... seems only the few of us here have no allegiance to the duopoly that is erroneously considered a choice.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> The Trump haters forget what the alternative was... also based on ideological grounds I guess.




The argument that Trump is OK because Hillary would have been worse doesn't cut it, ain't that a "straw man thing" neither is the Trump hater thing valid.

A few facts Trump at best is a pathological liar, exhibits extreme narcissism, unfaithful,  treasonous, colluded with Russia US enemy, his administration is a shambles (proof all those repubs bailing in Nov) I could go on but there is no defense for Trump on any level particularly if you have any morals,are a Christian or Republican I think the rest of the world looks on in disbelief not so much the hate thing.

Hate is what the right can do so much better.

I have never known a western world leader to get away with behavior that Trump has, to me he is getting free passes.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> I don't name call the lower than a snakes belly deadsh1ts (aka Lenin's "useful idiots") who pray at the alter of cultural marxism, but I don't worship the go you good thing Trump either.




You don't worship The Don Tisme ?  You don't kiss his ring ? Nuzzle his posterior ? Kowtow to his infinite wisdom, integrity and business accumen ?

If you had the slighest sliver of integrity you would recognise and condemn the corruption that Donald Trump has brought to the Presidency of the US. You would be very concerned at the dangers he brings to international trade, US relations in Europe  and risks of war in Syria. And you would recognise that a creature who has raised 20 separate cases of sexual abuse and called every complainant aliar has no place as leader of a country.

But hey you just don't worship at his feet. well done..


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> You don't worship The Don Tisme ?  You don't kiss his ring ? Nuzzle his posterior ? Kowtow to his infinite wisdom, integrity and business accumen ?
> 
> If you had the slighest sliver of integrity you would recognise and condemn the corruption that Donald Trump has brought to the Presidency of the US. You would be very concerned at the dangers he brings to international trade, US relations in Europe  and risks of war in Syria. And you would recognise that a creature who has raised 20 separate cases of sexual abuse and called every complainant aliar has no place as leader of a country.
> 
> But hey you just don't worship at his feet. well done..





If you had an iota knowledge of how to run corporations et al, you would know the value of delivered entropy into the mix. It has saved many enterprises due to many facets of human behaviour e.g.

lantern wick productivity effect;
voluntary resignations by laggards;
revelation of latent leadership potentials;
increased high yield risk;
etc.

The fear that comes from short sighted naysayers must be addressed in terms of them worried about the ashes left after the bonfire....who's gonna pick up the pieces at it were. Hopefully the company won't return to its downward trajectory to terminal state


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> The argument that Trump is OK because Hillary would have been worse doesn't cut it, ain't that a "straw man thing" neither is the Trump hater thing valid.
> 
> A few facts Trump at best is a pathological liar, exhibits extreme narcissism, unfaithful,  treasonous, colluded with Russia US enemy, his administration is a shambles (proof all those repubs bailing in Nov) I could go on but there is no defense for Trump on any level particularly if you have any morals,are a Christian or Republican I think the rest of the world looks on in disbelief not so much the hate thing.
> 
> Hate is what the right can do so much better.
> 
> I have never known a western world leader to get away with behavior that Trump has, to me he is getting free passes.



Like I have said repeatedly this is America's Berlusconi moment. It was always going to be entertaining and scandal-ridden that was a no brainer. But what the hateful  cultural Marxists on the extreme left refuse to admit is that the American economy is doing rather well, the Donald is doing a fair bit right and he is gaining popularity despite the scandals.

 the strategic position remains to be seen but there are some encouraging signs there even if things area bit scary. 

Trump it's not as dumb as the disingenuous outrage mongerss like to portray and I posit that he is a great deal more intelligent than any of you lot.

And just think what would you like have to be outraged about if not for the Donald


----------



## basilio

Oh what  obscure drivel you write when you get a wind up Tisme.  Really!!

Let's try a really clear *First.

The US Government is not a Corporation. *It is the governing body of the most powerful country on the planet. It has responsibilities way beyond making the biggest bucks and creating the wealthiest CEO's.

And after the  first ?  Hopeless conflicts of interest, inveterate liar, abuse of power, destructor of international bonds. 

But let's not worry - someone can bury the ashes can't they?


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Like I have said repeatedly this is America's Berlusconi moment. It was always going to be entertaining and scandal-ridden that was a no brainer. But what the hateful  cultural Marxists on the extreme left refuse to admit is that the American economy is doing rather well, the Donald is doing a fair bit right and he is gaining popularity despite the scandals.
> 
> the strategic position remains to be seen but there are some encouraging signs there even if things area bit scary.
> 
> Trump it's not as dumb as the disingenuous outrage mongerss like to portray and I posit that he is a great deal more intelligent than any of you lot.
> 
> And just think what would you like have to be outraged about if not for the Donald





Berlusconi was entertaining, Trump is no Berlusconi another straw man argument.

US economy was actually trending up under Obama (and remember he got handed armageddon) the stock market likes Trump because of a $1,5 tril give away what a genius.....pity about the continuing trajectory of wealth disparity and that those working 3 jobs to eat will be paying for the $1.5 tril.

Another straw man argument is the outage claim there is no outrage just to many facts to demonstrate the hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy (I am not including you in this) of the political right here in Oz and the US. 

Donald will end in flames and the Repubs know it....rats jumping ship.


----------



## wayneL

I think you should look up what a straw man argument is ifocus.


----------



## cynic

IFocus said:


> Berlusconi was entertaining, Trump is no Berlusconi another straw man argument.
> 
> US economy was actually trending up under Obama (and remember he got handed armageddon) the stock market likes Trump because of a $1,5 tril give away what a genius.....pity about the continuing trajectory of wealth disparity and that those working 3 jobs to eat will be paying for the $1.5 tril.
> 
> Another straw man argument is the outage claim there is no outrage just to many facts to demonstrate the hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy (I am not including you in this) of the political right here in Oz and the US.
> 
> Donald will end in flames and the Repubs know it....rats jumping ship.



Have you so quickly forgotten about the immense costs of the various rounds of quantitive easing, the toxic asset relief programme, operation twist, various industry bailouts (insurance, automative etc.) - all of which predated the Trumping Don!

1.5 T is nothing in comparison with what had been injected during the decade prior to His advent!!


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Oh what  obscure drivel you write when you get a wind up Tisme.  Really!!
> 
> Let's try a really clear *First.
> 
> The US Government is not a Corporation. *It is the governing body of the most powerful country on the planet. It has responsibilities way beyond making the biggest bucks and creating the wealthiest CEO's.
> 
> And after the  first ?  Hopeless conflicts of interest, inveterate liar, abuse of power, destructor of international bonds.
> 
> But let's not worry - someone can bury the ashes can't they?




I'll give you a hall pass on the Govt versus Corp brain fart so you can think about how silly it sounds.

Brass tacks: it appears you have more knowledge than the various attack dogs and committees who haven't managed to find conflicts of interest, inveterate lying, etc. You must have a magic pudding stuffed away somewhere


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> I'll give you a hall pass on the Govt versus Corp brain fart so you can think about how silly it sounds.
> 
> Brass tacks: it appears you have more knowledge than the various attack dogs and committees who haven't managed to find conflicts of interest, inveterate lying, etc. You must have a magic pudding stuffed away somewhere




Realy Tisme ! If you can't understand the difference between running a corporation solely for profit and maximising your wealth as CEO and running a government *which serves a whole nation.. *well you make The Don look like an intellectual.

As for denying the lying, the conflicts of interest, the destruction of international bonds.. Just send me some of your extra special meds. Obviously very effective.
Take your pick of any article you find when you punch in
*Financial* *conflicts* of interest for donald Trump

www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/


----------



## basilio

Let's get back to today's Trumpian lies. James Comey writes a book detailing his conversations with The Don and, amongst other comments, observing how *exactly* The Don mimics the behaviour of the  Godfathers in the Mafia.  As if this was  news to anyone.

Check out it out.

PostEverything
Perspective
*Trump is calling Comey a liar because to Trump, all criticism is a lie.*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ne-who-criticizes-him/?utm_term=.c68611776fdd


----------



## IFocus

cynic said:


> Have you so quickly forgotten about the immense costs of the various rounds of quantitive easing, the toxic asset relief programme, operation twist, various industry bailouts (insurance, automative etc.) - all of which predated the Trumping Don!
> 
> 1.5 T is nothing in comparison with what had been injected during the decade prior to His advent!!




Are you talking about the Fed policy or Reps/Senate/Pres bills?


----------



## cynic

IFocus said:


> Are you talking about the Fed policy or Reps/Senate/Pres bills?



Does the authorship of the programmes, funded from the public purse, alter the matter to which I was alerting you?


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Realy Tisme ! If you can't understand the difference between running a corporation solely for profit and maximising your wealth as CEO and running a government *which serves a whole nation.. *well you make The Don look like an intellectual.
> 
> As for denying the lying, the conflicts of interest, the destruction of international bonds.. Just send me some of your extra special meds. Obviously very effective.
> Take your pick of any article you find when you punch in
> *Financial* *conflicts* of interest for donald Trump
> 
> www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/




Really has two els.

The rest is just time wasting. If you don't know the common variables of govt and private to maximise productivity you would be starting way back behind the start line and that's too big a teaching task for anyone man, even me...


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Let's get back to today's Trumpian lies. James Comey writes a book detailing his conversations with The Don and, amongst other comments, observing how *exactly* The Don mimics the behaviour of the  Godfathers in the Mafia.  As if this was  news to anyone.
> 
> Check out it out.
> 
> PostEverything
> Perspective
> *Trump is calling Comey a liar because to Trump, all criticism is a lie.*
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ne-who-criticizes-him/?utm_term=.c68611776fdd





 Alpha males intimidate your sense of fair play don't they bas ......nurse!


----------



## Tisme

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dear-Humanities-Profs-We-Are/243100?cid=wcontentgrid_hp_6



> Parsed portion of  letter:
> Now that we have a culture of higher education in which business studies dominate; now that we face legislatures blind to the value of the liberal arts; now that we behold in the toxic briskness of the four-hour news cycle a president and party that share our disregard for expertise while making a travesty of our aversion to power, the consequences of our disavowal of expertise are becoming clear. The liquidation of literary authority partakes of a climate in which all expertise has been liquidated. In such a climate, nothing stands against demagoguery. What could?


----------



## IFocus

cynic said:


> Does the authorship of the programmes, funded from the public purse, alter the matter to which I was alerting you?




What matters is who pays for the debt when you reduce revenue (tax cuts) someone pays for that reduction either by increasing someone's else's contribution or reducing services (health/education)  to make up the shortfall that wont be big business in the US.

There is no plan to pay for the debt unless you believe the Repubs about the boom will make up the difference and then there is the trickle down economics BS. 

Am not arguing Dems better than Repubs both really suck and both own where the US is today with the wealth disparity I'll leave the labeling / politics to Wayne


----------



## Junior

The guy doesn't read and prefers to watch Fox News, then spend all night posting on twitter about the stories he has seen on the TV.  He's an embarrassment.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> If you don't know the common variables of govt and private to maximise productivity you would be starting way back behind the start line and that's too big a teaching task for anyone man, even me...




And if you can't understand that Government is about balancing the needs of the whole community and having transparent processes in place to ensure good goverence  rather than pandering to a big business group then you're clearly a difficult person to teach.

Let's take a concrete, far reaching example of how disastrously wrong headed the Trump government is.
The EPA has a new head,  Scott Pruitt,  who is systematically destroying the mandate of the  EPA while swanning around on First Class travel, taking expensive holidays courtesy of big business miners and creating a 20 strong personal security force by sacking EPA employees ! This is  Trumpian government. 

*Scott Pruitt is slowly strangling the EPA*
*The unprecedented regulatory slowdown and rollbacks at the Environmental Protection Agency.*
By Umair Irfan Updated  Mar 8, 2018, 8:19am EST
     Share 
The mandate of the head of the Environmental Protection Agency is to protect human health and enforce environmental regulations.

Yet when he reflected on his first year in office in a recent report, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt celebrated the rollback of 22 regulations under his watch, and cheered President Donald Trump’s rejection of climate science and policy.

This is the EPA administrator whose tenure has also been marked by highly unusual, even paranoid, precautions: armoring himself with a 24/7 security detail, building a $25,000 secret phone booth in his office, spending $9,000 to sweep his office for surveillance bugs, and hiding his schedule from the public.

But some of the biggest, and most overlooked, changes Pruitt has made at the EPA have come by not doing anything at all. He’s steering the EPA’s work at an agonizingly slow pace, delaying and slowing the implementation of laws and running interference for many of the sectors EPA is supposed to regulate. His EPA has also collected far fewer fines from polluters than any of the last three administrations during the same time.

With more staff and funding cuts looming, even fewer toxic chemicals and other environmental hazards will be measured, and the statutes that protect against them won’t be enforced.

“People will get sick and die,” Christine Todd Whitman, who served as EPA administrator under President George W. Bush, told Vox. “It’s that simple.” Some 230,000 Americans already die each year due to hazardous chemical exposures. “You stop enforcing those regulations and that number will go way up,” she said.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1/29/16684952/epa-scott-pruitt-director-regulations

*Ethics watchdog says EPA chief Scott Pruitt's rent deal, expenses, travel raise troubling red flags*

Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt has caught flak for flying first class, paying just $50 per night for a Capitol Hill rental and reportedly shuffling staffers who questioned his spending.
The Office of Government Ethics in a new letter warned the EPA that Pruitt's actions "raise concerns and may constitute a violation" of federal ethics rules.
Pruitt's large security detail, which costs millions of dollars, is justified by the number of death threats he has received, according to the EPA.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/09/eth...xpenses-travel-raise-troubling-red-flags.html


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Realy Tisme ! If you can't understand the difference between running a corporation solely for profit and maximising your wealth as CEO and running a government *which serves a whole nation.. *well you make The Don look like an intellectual.
> 
> As for denying the lying, the conflicts of interest, the destruction of international bonds.. Just send me some of your extra special meds. Obviously very effective.
> Take your pick of any article you find when you punch in
> *Financial* *conflicts* of interest for donald Trump
> 
> www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/




Yeah, but your decent into the vicissitudes of maniacally calling out members as liars, personal insults and other nasty things they are not, doesn't engender confidence in your objective assessment of Trump.

The best you do is post pulp fiction from news rags.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> The best you do is post pulp fiction from news rags.



Right Tisme. Just point out which parts of the stories I quoted are fiction.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Right Tisme. Just point out which parts of the stories I quoted are fiction.




I don't have to. It's your reputation that has to be repaired, not mine.


----------



## basilio

Right Tisme. Just point out which parts of the stories I quoted are fiction.  Bas



Tisme said:


> I don't have to. It's your reputation that has to be repaired, not mine.




Hmm. Tisme declares that 6 legal investigations in Scott Pruitts managment of the EPA can be disregarded because I point them out. 

I think that says *FAR*, far more about your infinite capacity for denial than any accusation I could possibly make.


----------



## basilio

Tell you what Tizzie.  Could we get someone else on ASF to reference the six investigations into Scott Pruitt ? Would that help you get over the line in terms of checking facts  and actually talking about the maladministration happening under The Don ?


----------



## basilio

Could anyone else second this post for Tizme's benefit ? Wayne ? Satan Opera ? 
Thx..

*Scott Pruitt’s actions at the EPA have triggered a half-dozen investigations*
*Government watchdogs have legal and ethical investigations underway as new allegations emerge in letters from Congress.*

*The pressure on Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt is building as inauspicious details keep emerging about his activities in office.
*
On Thursday, House and Senate Democrats sent two letters to Pruitt and the White House detailing new alleged transgressions provided by Kevin Chmielewski, a former campaign aide to President Trump who worked as a deputy chief of staff at the EPA under Pruitt.


The letters reveal Chmielewski’s deep concerns about a multitude of indiscretions, including Pruitt’s refusal to stay in secure hotels recommended by the State Department on international travel, instead opting for more opulent accommodations. Chmielewski also said that when he objected to retroactively signing off on paperwork justifying first-class travel for the administrator and one of his aides, he was sidelined and received threats from Nino Perrotta, the head of Pruitt’s 24-hour security detail. It’s worth reading the letters in their entirety:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envi...epa-scott-pruitt-investigations-scandal-condo


----------



## cynic

basilio said:


> Right Tisme. Just point out which parts of the stories I quoted are fiction.  Bas
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Tisme declares that 6 legal investigations in Scott Pruitts managment of the EPA can be disregarded because I point them out.



Did he really?


> I think that says *FAR*, far more about your infinite capacity for denial than any accusation I could possibly make.



Habitual invocation of 'd' word accusations, in response to opposition, does tend to diminish others' perceptions of one's credibility, and capacity for impartiality, does it not?


----------



## basilio

cynic said:


> Did he really?
> 
> Habitual invocation of 'd' word accusations, in response to opposition, does tend to diminish others' perceptions of one's credibility, and capacity for impartiality, does it not?



 Maybe ?  Hopefully it doesn't completely destroy ones capacity to read. 

Why take my word for the problems Scott Pruitt is facing ? The accusations are tabled.


----------



## cynic

basilio said:


> Maybe ?  Hopefully it doesn't completely destroy ones capacity to read.
> 
> Why take my word for the problems Scott Pruitt is facing ? The accusations are tabled.



From where I am sitting, this all looks suspiciously like, a small part of a larger political power play. One which has been put into operation pursuant to someone else's agenda.

So I do not find it at all surprising that this has garnered your interest.


----------



## basilio

*Fox News says...*

*Comey calls Trump 'morally unfit to be president,' says he wouldn't have changed handling of Clinton probe*
*




*
*By  Barnini Chakraborty   | Fox News*



*

Faceboo
*
In his first interview since being fired, former FBI Director James Comey described President Trump as an ego-driven liar who treats women like “meat” and is “morally unfit to be president.”

“I don’t think he’s medically unfit to be president. I think he’s morally unfit to be president,” Comey said in a wide-ranging sit-down Sunday night with ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos.  “A person who sees moral equivalence in Charlottesville, who talks about and treats women like they’re pieces of meat, who lies constantly about matters big and small and insists the American people believe him - that person is not fit to be president of the United States on moral grounds.”

*http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ldnt-have-changed-handling-clinton-probe.html*


----------



## basilio

cynic said:


> From where I am sitting, this all looks suspiciously like, a small part of a larger political power play. One which has been put into operation pursuant to someone else's agenda.
> 
> So I do not find it at all surprising that this has garnered your interest.




Or perhaps if you read the letters sent to the Congress they reflect truly appalling goverance standards by Scott Pruitt as head of the EPA.


----------



## cynic

basilio said:


> Or perhaps if you read the letters sent to the Congress they reflect truly appalling goverance standards by Scott Pruitt as head of the EPA.



What are the political affiliations of the instigators of this call for investigation?

How much impartiality is evident in their testimonies?

Why not wait for the completion of the investigation (if there is to be one) before jumping to conclusions about the propriety (or lack thereof) of Pruitt's conduct?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Right Tisme. Just point out which parts of the stories I quoted are fiction.  Bas
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Tisme declares that 6 legal investigations in Scott Pruitts managment of the EPA can be disregarded because I point them out.
> 
> I think that says *FAR*, far more about your infinite capacity for denial than any accusation I could possibly make.



Are you saying he is guilty? 
Isn't the investigation just ramping up.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Are you saying he is guilty?
> Isn't the investigation just ramping up.




Quite correct. The six separate investigations into the way Scott Pruitt is *administering *the EPA need to be completed.

On the other hand the policy decisions he has made in terms of reducing the effectivenesss of the EPA in monitoring air, water and soil pollution are clear. He is defanging the EPA.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Quite correct. The six separate investigations into the way Scott Pruitt is *administering *the EPA need to be completed.
> 
> On the other hand the policy decisions he has made in terms of reducing the effectivenesss of the EPA in monitoring air, water and soil pollution are clear. He is defanging the EPA.



They are all $hitbags out for themselves.


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> Wot?
> 
> I don't think I'm a passive troller ... seems only the few of us here have no allegiance to the duopoly that is erroneously considered a choice.



No Carl. I'm not accusing you of trolling and to be honest I'm not sure why we're even having this conversation.

I'm just putting it out there that disagreeing with Donald Trump doesn't mean one is some kind of extremist / hater and shouldn't be labeled as such.

Trumps' behaviour over the weekend does illustrate my point though. Right on cue, really


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> No Carl. I'm not accusing you of trolling and to be honest I'm not sure why we're even having this conversation.
> 
> I'm just putting it out there that disagreeing with Donald Trump doesn't mean one is some kind of extremist / hater and shouldn't be labeled as such.
> 
> Trumps' behaviour over the weekend does illustrate my point though. Right on cue, really




You must admit there is a lot of spit and vitriol when it come to denigrating Trump. Working on the marketing 80/20 maxim only a minority of angry people are actually angry for the best intentions, the rest are a mob who love band wagoning the hysteria.

I think if people are prepared to heave bricks at things they hate, they need to be prepared to receive a rebound. He is very predictable...someone with enough smarts could make a lot of money, prestige and convenience out of that.


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> You must admit there is a lot of spit and vitriol when it come to denigrating Trump. Working on the marketing 80/20 maxim only a minority of angry people are actually angry for the best intentions, the rest are a mob who love band wagoning the hysteria.
> 
> *I think if people are prepared to heave bricks at things they hate, they need to be prepared to receive a rebound.* He is very predictable...someone with enough smarts could make a lot of money, prestige and convenience out of that.



I agree, especially with the heave bricks bit and that's what we're seeing today. Saw plenty of hate during the Obama era and even more of it here in OZ during the Gillard "Ditch the witch" era, and ironically the vast majority of it coming from the very people who are now playing the victim.

The Cronulla riots were inspired by right wing hate. It's nothing new - just more vitriolic.


----------



## basilio

The concern and anger about Donald Trump comes from an exceptionally wide range of people including significant members of the Republician Party.

The concern is about what he does and how he has managed the role of President of US. I thought James Comey summed up the issues very succintly.

_“Our president must embody respect and adhere to the values that are at the core of this country,” Comey told Stephanopoulos. “The most important being truth. This president is not able to do that. He is morally unfit to be president.”


Turning first to Trump’s defence of a white supremacists’ march, he said: “A person who sees moral equivalence in Charlottesville, who talks about and treats women like they’re pieces of meat, who lies constantly about matters big and small and insists the American people believe it, that person’s not fit to be president of the United States, on moral grounds._”

Something else that become very apparent is that Donald Trump is systematically using his position as President to enrich himself and his family. That is just corruption - pure and simple. Check out how he is doing this day in day out below. 

*Watchdog group reveals how Trump enriched himself with presidential run*
*A new report finds the properties have received at least $15.1 million since 2015.*
Rebekah Entralgo  Apr 16, 2018, 11:08 am


SHARE
U.S. businesses has dramatically increased since he announced his run for office in 2015, according to a new report by government watchdog group Public Citizen first obtained by McClatchy.

*Watchdog group reveals how Trump enriched himself with presidential run*
*A new report finds the properties have received at least $15.1 million since 2015.*
Rebekah Entralgo  Apr 16, 2018, 11:08 am


SHARE
Trump International Hotel in Washington D.C. (Photo by Dimitrios Manis/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)
Political spending at President Donald Trump’s U.S. businesses has dramatically increased since he announced his run for office in 2015, according to a new report by government watchdog group Public Citizen first obtained by McClatchy.

During Trump’s presidential campaign and the first 15 months of his presidency, according to the report, political groups and federal agencies have spent at least $15.1 million at Trump properties. The Trump campaign itself spent the biggest amount — nearly 90 percent, or roughly $13.4 million.
The $15.1 million figure includes more than $717,000 from the Republican National Committee; $595,000 from the RNC and Trump campaign’s joint fundraising committee; and $9,000 from the National Republican Senate Committee.

Two powerful political action committees — American First Action, a PAC dedicated to electing federal candidates who support Trump’s agenda, and Great America Committee, Vice President Mike Pence’s group — spent $33,000 and $24,000 at Trump properties, respectively.

 




*A year into his presidency, Trump is breaking one of his big ethics pledges*
The increased spending appears to be a direct result of Trump’s newly found political capital. According to the report, political spending during 2013 and 2014 at Trump properties was just less than $20,000.

And the $15.1 million number may not even represent the full amount of what these political groups have spent at Trump properties or businesses. Groups like Public Citizen and Property of the People have resorted to gathering information through public records requests and Federal Election Commission data because there is no central place to find out just how much the current administration is spending at Trump-owned properties.

The conflict of interest violations involving politics and Trump properties are numerous and far reaching.

The Trump International Hotel in Washington, for example, served as the venue for a fundraiser for Mike Pence’s brother’s congressional race earlier this year.

The Kuwaiti embassy, which had previously hosted its independence day parties at the Four Seasons for 10 years in a row, made the decision to host their 2017 and 2018 receptions at Trump’s D.C. hotel.

In June of 2017, the hotel raked in $270,000 from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia during their government officials’ stay at the hotel.

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-pro...litical-groups-federal-agencies-14616126eb04/


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> I agree, especially with the heave bricks bit and that's what we're seeing today. Saw plenty of hate during the Obama era and even more of it here in OZ during the Gillard "Ditch the witch" era, and ironically the vast majority of it coming from the very people who are now playing the victim.
> 
> The Cronulla riots were inspired by right wing hate. It's nothing new - just more vitriolic.




Expected polarisation when you consider the rapid trajectory of a vapid society with the insipid at the helm.

When Trump leaves office the path for his successor should be less cluttered with legacy protocols and answer to nobody Mandarins.

The relative decline of USA as empire manifests itself in a feckless force when it comes to military sojourns, a falling life expectancy, a drug addled population that just added even more national apathy through cannabis legalisation, etc ... it's becoming a nation of Eloi watching the Morlocks.

IMO "Doublethink" is the cancer that has rooted itself in Western Culture over the last few decades and Trump represents a threat to that, either as the enemy or as an hijacking Emperor.


----------



## PZ99

I reckon that doublethink threat is fading as more backflips and policy changes surface during his tenure. That's the price to pay for placing figureheads at the top of a duopoly of opposing political pyramid schemes


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> I reckon that doublethink threat is fading as more backflips and policy changes surface during his tenure. That's the price to pay for placing figureheads at the top of a duopoly of opposing political pyramid schemes




The guys writing the Designated Survivor scripts must be like boyz with two dicks everytime Trump picks a fight.


----------



## PZ99

Tisme said:


> The guys writing the Designated Survivor scripts must be like boyz with two dicks everytime Trump picks a fight.



Well that explains their slumped with hands-in-both-pockets posture at press conferences then.

They sure as hell ain't praying for a miracle. LOL


----------



## bellenuit

The truth slowly ekes out. At yesterday's hearing regarding attorney-client privilege in relation to the material seized during the raid on Cohen's offices and home (Cohen is the Trump lawyer who supposedly paid Stormy Daniels $130K to keep quite about her relationship with Trump), it was revealed that Sean Hannity was one of the other two Cohen clients. For those who watch Fox News, Hannity is for sure the most brazen faced liar on that channel, which (at least the News Division) is full of brazen faced liars.

Trump has on many occasions tweeted about Hannity shows that were about to air and urged followers to tune in. Hannity is a Trump cheerleader and provides a lot of the "opinion pieces" and blatant fake news that Trump tweets about a few hours afterwards. Hannity is one of the foremost attack dogs against Mueller and was also all over Mueller in relation to the raids on Cohen's offices (even though that was not carried out by Mueller, but by one of the local NY FBI divisions). Hannity has never disclosed he had a relationship with Cohen which one might expect prior to his opinion pieces regarding Cohen or Cohen/Trump.

What is interesting now is the difference between what Cohen said was the relationship (Attorney-Client) and what Hannity said it is (casual unpaid conversation regarding some property investment).

More here:

*Sean Hannity news is a real problem for Michael Cohen*

*https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/16/...l-problem-for-michael-cohen-coates/index.html*


----------



## basilio

Another critical issue facing The Don is the question of of whether Michael Cohen went Prague in 2016 to meet the Russians. This was one of the most specific claims made in the Steele Dossier and was immediately denied by Michael Cohen.  But apparently there appears to be evidence showing Cohen was in Prague.

This Vox story goes into much detail on the  Steele Dossier and the issues behind the denial that Cohen had ever been to Prague. 

*Why the question of whether Michael Cohen visited Prague is massively important for Donald Trump*
*The Steele dossier claimed Cohen went to Prague to meet Russians. He’s said for more than a year that he didn’t.*
By Andrew Prokopandrew@vox.com  Updated  Apr 14, 2018, 12:03pm EDT
     Share 
Did Trump lawyer Michael Cohen secretly visit Prague to meet with Russians in 2016? The future of Donald Trump’s presidency could hinge on whether the answer to that question is yes.

That’s because the claim that such a meeting happened is one of the most specific claims in Christopher Steele’s dossier alleging collusion between the Trump team and Russia to influence the 2016 election — and because, since the very first day that dossier was publicly released, Cohen has adamantly denied taking any such trip, and Trump’s team has relied on that denial to dispute the dossier’s accuracy. “I have never been to Prague in my life. #fakenews,” Cohen tweeted on January 10, 2017, hours after the dossier was posted.

Yet a new report from McClatchy’s Peter Stone and Greg Gordon claims that special counsel Robert Mueller has evidence that Cohen did, in fact, enter Prague through Germany at the height of the 2016 campaign, in “August or early September.”

The McClatchy report is based on anonymous sources, and we don’t yet know what the purported evidence is. It could still prove to be mistaken. Cohen himself reiterated his denial again Saturday morning, telling CNN, “No, I have never been to Prague,” and sending this tweet rebutting the story:

If the McClatchy report was accurate, it would utterly devastate one of the Trump team’s leading arguments that there was no Trump-Russia collusion. That’s because, to be blunt, there is no reason for Cohen to try to debunk the Steele dossier by lying and saying that he didn’t visit Prague _at all_ if he actually did, unless he was trying to cover up extremely serious wrongdoing that happened during that visit. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17236660/michael-cohen-prague-trump-steele-dossier


----------



## bellenuit

Really interesting piece on the law firm that represented Trump on Monday's hearing re attorney-client privilege.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> Really interesting piece on the law firm that represented Trump on Monday's hearing re attorney-client privilege.





He's almost jumping out of his skin with excitement at the prospect of Trump getting the rounds of the table isn't he. Sets up an atmosphere of frenetic activity, even though the court decides the pace of matters.

If the court decides in favour of Trump, then Trump is not the villain on that occasion and all those casting stones will just have to wait until the next smear campaign.

Who cares if he had some timeout with a prostituting pr0n star. It's not 1950's anymore and sexual proclivities have equality these days.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Who cares if he had some timeout with a prostituting pr0n star. It's not 1950's anymore and sexual proclivities have equality these days.




Kennedy got away with his notorious womanising because he was a darling of the Left (or as far Left as you can get in the USA).


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Kennedy got away with his notorious womanising because he was a darling of the Left (or as far Left as you can get in the USA).





Did you know that an English newspaper got a tipoff ~half an hour before JFK got the bullet? The reporter was tipped to ring the US Embassy for the big news about to occur.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Did you know that an English newspaper got a tipoff ~half an hour before JFK got the bullet? The reporter was tipped to ring the US Embassy for the big news about to occur.




I heard a snippet of that.

Do you have any credible links ?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> I heard a snippet of that.
> 
> Do you have any credible links ?





I think it was last year when they release the Kennedy Papers?. 

MI5 or MI6  also rec'd a call I think .... probably why we had suspicions about the Ruskies involvement.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Really interesting piece on the law firm that represented Trump on Monday's hearing re attorney-client privilege.





Brilliant find Bellenuit. Well worth a view to appreciate the irony of realising that Donald Trump has now hired one of the best criminal law firms in the US -  *who happen to be leading players in the chorus of disapprovals around the sacking of James Comey. *Make sure you get to that section.

As far a Donald Trump  having an affair with a pr0n star barely months after Melania gave birth to Barron ?  Tawrdy, tasteless and totally Trump. And truth be known no one is surprised.   The problem of course is the resolute lying of Donald Trump over the issue and the payoff by Michael Cohen (also resolutely denied) to keep Stormy quiet. It will be these issues the court will be interested in.


----------



## bellenuit

One aspect of Trump's affairs that should not be overlooked is that apart from what it says about his character, it can also prove to be a huge security issue. The Steel Dossier mentioned the golden showers tapes and if they are real that could be a reason from Trumps reticence on Russia (reluctance to impose sanctions etc). The probability of the Steel Dossier being correct has increased with last weeks revelation that Mueller has proof Cohen was in Prague at the time alleged by Steel, something vehemently denied by Cohen.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> One aspect of Trump's affairs that should not be overlooked is that apart from what it says about his character, it can also prove to be a huge security issue. The Steel Dossier mentioned the golden showers tapes and if they are real that could be a reason from Trumps reticence on Russia (reluctance to impose sanctions etc). The probability of the Steel Dossier being correct has increased with last weeks revelation that Mueller has proof Cohen was in Prague at the time alleged by Steel, something vehemently denied by Cohen.




The risk that Donald Trump has been compromised by Russia was one of the key concerns of the Steele Dossier. Another point is that if the main elements are proven correct (and it was never suggested that everything was proven) Donald Trump stands exposed as a proven liar over critical national security issues as well as solicting foreign interferance in  US elections.

That sounds more than impeachable. Treasonous comes closer to mind.


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## SirRumpole

Great interview by Leigh Sales with James Comey. The US lost an impressive public servant when he was sacked.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## SirRumpole

Trump snubs Australia again , or just political reality ?

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...r-shifted-to-south-korea-20180425-p4zbhh.html


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## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Trump snubs Australia again , or just political reality ?
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...r-shifted-to-south-korea-20180425-p4zbhh.html




I'd just see that as sending the bloke to a flashpoint rather than a slumber party


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## Tisme

LOL


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## basilio

There was a brilliant article in The Guardian which asked/analysed the question of why all the past Presidents and Melania Trump were such happy little larks at Barbara Bushs' funeral.

Worth a read.

 
 Shortcuts 
* Why are the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas and Melania smiling so broadly at a funeral? *
The warmth between them is the camaraderie you often see between rivals now bonded by experience. And the absence of Donald Trump can only have added to the relaxed air of the picture

Jonathan Freedland

 @Freedland 
Mon 23 Apr 2018 04.16 EDT   Last modified on Mon 23 Apr 2018 17.00 EDT

*Shares*
12k
 
* Comments*
 1,298 



The Bush family with the Clintons, Obamas and Melania Trump at Barbara Bush’s funeral. Photograph: Paul Morse/AP
Consider him the elephant not in the room, simultaneously absent from this picture and looming over it.

Donald Trump did not attend Saturday’s funeral of Barbara Bush in Houston, Texas. Reporters were told that was because Trump generously wanted to spare the mourning Bush family the “disruptions due to added security” that would have come with his presidential presence. But that same White House statement may well have given the game away when it added that Trump did not attend “out of respect for the Bush family and friends attending the service”. Normally, the way you pay your respects to a grieving family is to show up, not stay away. Unless, of course, you know that the bereaved family in question hates your guts – in which case the greatest courtesy you can pay them in their hour of distress is to leave them alone.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-and-melania-smiling-so-broadly-at-a-funeral


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## bellenuit

Whose arm is around Hillary? Bush's or her husband's?


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## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Whose arm is around Hillary? Bush's or her husband's?



George Bush... Reflects the overall story doesn't it ?


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## basilio

Nice observation regarding Melania Trumps radiance at the funeral get together of past presidents..

_"Which leaves Melania. Shouldn’t she be uncomfortable among all these people who despise her husband? What explains her apparent ease, smiling as readily as the rest of them?


The clue might be in some of the other pictures taken at Saturday’s service. There she was, seated next to Barack Obama, looking positively cheery. “Have you ever, ever, EVER seen Melania smile like this, and look this relaxed, beside her own husband? Ever?,” tweeted the science writer Steve Silberman. Others noted the oddity that here was the first lady looking happier than she had in ages – at a funeral.

 There is indeed no shortage of pictures of Melania looking miserable or ignored by Trump, as he walks up or down the stairs of Air Force One without her, not showing his wife even the most basic courtesy, let alone marital affection. Compared to the hostile environment that is a Trump marriage, a moment with the real-life presidents’ club must have felt like blissful respite."
_
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...melania-smiling-so-broadly-at-a-funeral#img-1


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## bellenuit

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Trump destroys his own defence in Cohen document suppression case.


----------



## bellenuit

Have you ever seen the Fox hosts look so scared with what they have just unleashed. Watch a speeded up video of Trumps 30 minute rant at the 2:20 mark.


----------



## wayneL

Just sayin'

(Nobel Peace Prize for The Donald?)


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Just sayin'
> 
> (Nobel Peace Prize for The Donald?)




Much that I hope for peace in Korea, that post is a bit like Bush's "Mission Accomplished"


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Much that I hope for peace in Korea, that post is a bit like Bush's "Mission Accomplished"



Or Obama's Nobel Peace Prize?


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Or Obama's Nobel Peace Prize?



Yeh. That too


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Much that I hope for peace in Korea, that post is a bit like Bush's "Mission Accomplished"



Big step though.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Just sayin'
> 
> (Nobel Peace Prize for The Donald?)




I heard that S.Korea's president Moon deserve the credit as he was the one pushing for it. But then being a colonial governor you can't do much without getting permission so yea... credit goes to Trump.

But if there's to be lasting peace in the peninsular, give that orange douche a few Nobel that's for sure. 

But peace isn't the end game here. We all know what happened to Saddam, Qaddafi, lately Assad... So why would Kim or Xi want and permit this deal?

The US don't really want to, maybe they do who knows, draw China into a proxy war. That'd be opening up quite a few fronts. And even Napoleon couldn't win too many of those.

So is the US thinking that this will flip North Korea under South Korea, hence into the arm of freedom. Is China seeing this the same way... allowing that one Korea and Chinese influence to reach right up to Japan and US. 

Is S.Korea seeing this as a chance to tell the US to remove all its military bases from their country? That's not going to happen right? 

Maybe they all just want peace.


----------



## IFocus

Trump can rightfully take credit for the current Korea situation masterpiece thinking hiring the  strongest hawks (nutters) that are gunho on invading anyone, wonder if Iran will start singing a different tune soon.


----------



## Tisme

IFocus said:


> Trump can rightfully take credit for the current Korea situation masterpiece thinking hiring the  strongest hawks (nutters) that are gunho on invading anyone, wonder if Iran will start singing a different tune soon.




Dictators admire strong enemies:- it insinuates peerage amongst peers and justifies armies, secret police and suppression of personal freedoms.

Asians have an evolutionary psychology different to westerners. Koreans have personal barriers of shame, secrecy, honour and a strong aversion to humiliation inscribed in their psyche, whereas westerners tend to be more comfortable sharing it around. That Trump has managed to cut through these taboos is rather impressive IMO. 

Trump's attitude seems rather simple ... you want to play in our sandpit you will play by our rules.


----------



## Darc Knight

Someone was trying to tell me on the weekend that Trump is just a figurehead with "faceless men" pulling the strings behind the scenes. I tried to argue against this but gave up.
Unlike some past Presidents, Trump got there without much backing so owes very little and wouldn't be a figurehead at all, correct???


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> Unlike some past Presidents, Trump got there without much backing so owes very little and wouldn't be a figurehead at all, correct???




True, he does his own thing for better or worse.

That also means he doesn't make many alliances and therefore faces the fact that anything he wants to do by way of legislation may not get the support he needs.

Swings and roundabouts.


----------



## wayneL

A Nobel for Trump being mooted on ABC radio this morning,  You could just about hear the marxist shills dry wretching


----------



## Darc Knight

wayneL said:


> A Nobel for Trump being mooted on ABC radio this morning,  You could just about hear the marxist shills dry wretching



For standing up to "little Rocket Man" and bringing him to the table?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

SirRumpole said:


> True, he does his own thing for better or worse.
> 
> That also means he doesn't make many alliances and therefore faces the fact that anything he wants to do by way of legislation may not get the support he needs.
> 
> Swings and roundabouts.



With Trump I find it hard to tell the difference between a hardening of the shell and courage.  Certainly there's a degree of courage in him that is impressive.  I can't think of another world leader who would manage to maintain focus with half the population bullying, mocking and defaming him around the clock, 24/7.  The good old left media...so loving in their own eyes... yet so bullying.

Watch the media as they ernestly condemn school bullying in one breath, then completely rip into Trump and his family and have a good old laugh about it in the next.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> Someone was trying to tell me on the weekend that Trump is just a figurehead with "faceless men" pulling the strings behind the scenes. I tried to argue against this but gave up.
> Unlike some past Presidents, Trump got there without much backing so owes very little and wouldn't be a figurehead at all, correct???




No, not correct.

All presidents serve one interest - the National Interest. aka. Business.

If they don't, they get replaced. 

Got to remember too that practically all politician, and especially political leaders... they all either come from privileged/blue blood background; or are in a situation where their thinking and interests are aligned with those of big business that it would take a crazy idiot in high position to think that what's good for Big B might not be good for the plebs. 


With Pompeo now heading the states dept. and making the rounds around the Middle East... watch how Iran will be sanctioned again. Pompeo is the Koch brothers' boy, as are all other Trump's appointees being vetted by this or that other industrial complexes. 

Iran being squeezed again will mean Russia having to step in like they have to in the Ukraine, Syria etc. 

With that, more arms are sold; more oil are kept under ground, driving up prices... But Russia can't benefit much because of the sanctions and they'd probably signed a very long term fixed price contract for their oil/gas to the Chinese.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> With Trump I find it hard to tell the difference between a hardening of the shell and courage.  Certainly there's a degree of courage in him that is impressive.  I can't think of another world leader who would manage to maintain focus with half the population bullying, mocking and defaming him around the clock, 24/7.  The good old left media...so loving in their own eyes... yet so bullying.




There's no such thing as a lefty media if it's owned by a conglomerate. They're beating on Trump about his affairs and stupid tweets to distract the people from the real shiet Trump and his administration is doing.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

luutzu said:


> There's no such thing as a lefty media if it's owned by a conglomerate. They're beating on Trump about his affairs and stupid tweets to distract the people from the real shiet Trump and his administration is doing.




They don't mock his hair, his voice, his face, his relationship, the colour of his skin in an *endless* barrage?  They don't think it's the cool thing to do?  They don't have a good old laugh about it?

The thing is, his young son might well be devastated by this relentless attack, but they think it's all good fun.

I'm not defending him, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the media.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Dictators admire strong enemies:- it insinuates peerage amongst peers and justifies armies, secret police and suppression of personal freedoms.
> 
> Asians have an evolutionary psychology different to westerners. Koreans have personal barriers of shame, secrecy, honour and a strong aversion to humiliation inscribed in their psyche, whereas westerners tend to be more comfortable sharing it around. That Trump has managed to cut through these taboos is rather impressive IMO.
> 
> Trump's attitude seems rather simple ... you want to play in our sandpit you will play by our rules.




What are those rules? Do as we say or else we wiped you off the map? 

Kim giving up nukes might just be like him giving up exercise. He doesn't need it, he reckons. 

With those massive, so I'm told, barrage of conventional weapons aiming at Seoul and American bases nearby, maybe he reckon it's not going to be Iraq, Libya or Damascus all over again. 

That and maybe his trip to Beijing got a promised that if push come to shove, the other comrades can just leave a few nukes by the track.


----------



## luutzu

Gringotts Bank said:


> They don't mock his hair, his voice, his face, his relationship, the colour of his skin in an *endless* barrage?  They don't think it's the cool thing to do?  They don't have a good old laugh about it?
> 
> The thing is, his young son might well be devastated by this relentless attack, but they think it's all good fun.
> 
> I'm not defending him, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the media.




Those attacks are personal and serve as entertainment. Those aren't real criticism.

Then there's the Russia crap. That just tell Trump he better not get friendly with Moscow. Which is pretty stupid seeing how Russia has nukes, pretty much a second rate power that actually want to trade and be friend with the West...

All that while China is being left pretty much untouched. I know, those recent sanctions... they aren't as bad as we're supposed to believe.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> There's no such thing as a lefty media if it's owned by a conglomerate. They're beating on Trump about his affairs and stupid tweets to distract the people from the real shiet Trump and his administration is doing.




Guardian?


----------



## wayneL

Such a funny grasshopper.

 No lefty media? That is freaking hilarious!


----------



## Darc Knight

The most right wing media we have here is Macquarie Radio - 2GB, 4BC, 3AW etc. The majority shareholder is Fairfax. Fairfax is accused of being Leftie lol.
The darling of Macquarie Radio is Tony Abbott, while they hate Turnbull. Abbott is anti-ABC, the ABC is Macquarie Radio's only talkback competitor. Coincidence???


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Guardian?




RT. 

But only when it comes to those concerning American imperialism. Russian adventures are, of course, for the good of the natives.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Such a funny grasshopper.
> 
> No lefty media? That is freaking hilarious!




They might be leftist if they run their papers from a garage, or cast it on YT and hoping Google wouldn't demonetise their content. 

All media outlet make their money from full page and classified ads. Well, those river of gold and generous kickbacks from politicians they helped into office. 

The classifieds have been taken away by specialised .net guys for over a decade now. E.g. Realestate, seek.com, carsales etc. 

Though most of those are in turned being bought out by the traditional media owners but the ownership is diluted but new money become old money soon enough. So same difference.

Who could afford full page ads and other useless advertising? Big corporations and political parties around election time. 

It'd be pretty reckless for humanity if the editor and owner speak truth to power and riches. They got to think about the jobs of those unionised workers and all that 

As Murdoch reportedly told one of his commie editors... if he want to print "the truth" and all that crap, go get himself his own paper.

So it's not to say that there aren't Leftist, or just decent human being, working in the media. Just that if they want to keep their job and pay the mortgage off, better tow the line or find ways and means to sneak in stories the editors the proprietor don't approve. 

Most would either delude themselves and tow the line, or quit in disgust and go teach journalism or something.


----------



## Tisme

wayneL said:


> Such a funny grasshopper.
> 
> No lefty media? That is freaking hilarious!




Here is NBC's contribution from a 90 minute one on one interview ....... 

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-new...avorite-figure-of-the-alt-right-1221615171523


----------



## luutzu

Seems Nutty Yahu is going to drag Trump into war with Iran. 

There's a strike or two on Iranian targets in Syria follow by a show and tell on how evil the Iranians are for trying to build a nuke. 

Come on you Persian Arabs, only peaceful and responsible countries are permitted nuclear weapons. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ignificant-announcement-on-iran-idUSKBN1I11CJ


----------



## basilio

Don't you just LOVE ! every little bit about the Don. Love to see who gets accused of being a liar as this story evolves

*Donald Trump wrote own health letter, says physician Harold Bornstein*

2 hours ago
Image copyright EPA
Image caption Mr Trump's physical strength and stamina were described as "extraordinary" in the letter
Donald Trump's former doctor has said he did not write a 2015 letter declaring the then-Republican presidential candidate's "astonishingly excellent" health, US media report.

"[Trump] dictated that whole letter," Harold Bornstein told CNN on Tuesday.

The White House has not yet commented on the physician's allegation.

Mr Bornstein also said that Mr Trump's bodyguard had carried out a "raid" on his offices in February 2017, removing all of Mr Trump's medical records.

In an interview with CNN, Mr Bornstein said the 2015 letter suggesting that Mr Trump would be the "healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency" was not his professional assessment.


----------



## Tisme

Jan 2018



> Trump’s only health concern, according to Jackson, is his weight of 239 pounds. Jackson said the president wants to lose 10 to 15 pounds over the next year, and plans to exercise more.
> 
> Jackson, who served as the White House physician for Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, said he planned to help the 71-year-old Trump devise a new exercise regime and would get a nutritionist to work with the White House chef to prepare healthier meals.


----------



## wayneL

What's a little doctored doctor's letter between Nobel Lareates?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> What's a little doctored doctor's letter between Nobel Lareates?





Yes it is a wonderful joke isn't it ....

Shows how far we have gone when the President of the United States is shown dictating his own 'Larger than life" ultra glowing medical history and passing it off as an independent doctors report.

I mean that's the sort  of guy you could totally trust ... to rip you senseless


----------



## moXJO

I love Trump for the lefty screeching alone.
I think he is in with a chance next election. Right after he achieves world peace.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I love Trump for the lefty screeching alone.
> I think he is in with a chance next election. Right after he achieves world peace.




*I know....!  *Isn't it just so much fun to have a POTUS who completely dismantles any sense of right or wrong or boring ethics or  common civility or respect .  

It's just so refreshing to allow the inner unrestrained animal forces FREE ROAM .. to do, say and take as they will.

And God forbid that the Morally Righteous Right should ever consider criticising such a free spirit.

Go man go...


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *I know....!  *Isn't it just so much fun to have a POTUS who completely dismantles any sense of right or wrong or boring ethics or  common civility or respect .
> 
> It's just so refreshing to allow the inner unrestrained animal forces FREE ROAM .. to do, say and take as they will.
> 
> And God forbid that the Morally Righteous Right should ever consider criticising such a free spirit.
> 
> Go man go...



Yeah.... he is awesome.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> I love Trump for the lefty screeching alone.
> I think he is in with a chance next election. Right after he achieves world peace.




It's like a candy/baby metaphor playing out real time for all the world to see,....well invisible to those treasonous sheeple who are under the spell of the fifth columnists.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> I love Trump for the lefty screeching alone.
> I think he is in with a chance next election. Right after he achieves world peace.




Mad Max kind of world peace or Water World kind of world peace?

Well, they did say that all warfare are based on deception. That being true, Trump and Bibi will run circles around all enemies, foreign and domestic.


----------



## basilio

*Giuliani: Trump reimbursed Cohen for $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels*
By Jacqueline Thomsen - 05/02/18 09:51 PM EDT   1,904
9,489








*Autoplay:* On | Off
Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) said Wednesday that President Trump reimbursed his personal attorney Michael Cohen the $130,000 paid to adult-film star Stormy Daniels to stay quiet about their alleged affair.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...eimbursed-cohen-for-payment-to-stormy-daniels


Interesting.. Don't I remember somewhere that Michael Cohen paid out Stormy Daniels from his own funds, Donald Trump knew absolutely nothing about it and that the Don himself flatly denied any awareness of such a payment ?


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> *Giuliani: Trump reimbursed Cohen for $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels*
> 
> 
> Interesting.. Don't I remember somewhere that Michael Cohen paid out Stormy Daniels from his own funds, Donald Trump knew absolutely nothing about it and that the Don himself flatly denied any awareness of such a payment ?




Just too incredible to believe that it was all above board.

Trump has been caught out well and truly. Of course it's not a sackable offence, but still it doesn't paint a good picture of Trump. As if anything he said/did does.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Mad Max kind of world peace or Water World kind of world peace?
> 
> Well, they did say that all warfare are based on deception. That being true, Trump and Bibi will run circles around all enemies, foreign and domestic.



In comparison Obama was a war monger. Trump more a sanction pusher and **** talker.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Just too incredible to believe that it was all above board.
> 
> Trump has been caught out well and truly. Of course it's not a sackable offence, but still it doesn't paint a good picture of Trump. As if anything he said/did does.



Is anyone surprised though. Scandal after scandal and nothing sticks. All the lefty media has done is teflon coat him. He could kick puppies and no one would raise an eyebrow.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> In comparison Obama was a war monger. Trump more a sanction pusher and **** talker.




Yes, Obama turned two wars in the Middle East into 8. Kick off that coup in the Ukraine and all that drones. 

But give Trump some time, he's just getting warmed up. I mean, there's only so many war a guy can start in his first year.

So far, there's war on immigrants, war on Muslim refugees, wars on Mexico, war on "bad deals", war on the elderly and poverty stricken kids with their need for food and stuff.

There's war on the environment; war on fuel efficiency; war on "climate change"; war on the fake media; war on stupid "national parks" and maritime reserves. etc. etc.

Still he  managed to lopped a couple hundreds Tomahawk into Syria, and not kill any Russian.


----------



## wayneL

Trump saves the world from certain nuclear holocaust and the left is worried about Stormy Daniels and doctors certificates.

It's like having the absolutely most perfect babe in the world, and worrying about a tiny pimple on her bottom


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Trump saves the world from certain nuclear holocaust and the left is worried about Stormy Daniels and doctors certificates.




LOL. "Certain holocaust", rubbish. If Kim nuked anyone he would have been wiped out and he knew it. His economy is in shreds and he was on his knees. Very little to do with Trump.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Trump saves the world from certain nuclear holocaust and the left is worried about Stormy Daniels and doctors certificates.
> 
> It's like having the absolutely most perfect babe in the world, and worrying about a tiny pimple on her bottom




I thought Kim didn't have a nuke, just working on one.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> LOL. "Certain holocaust", rubbish. If Kim nuked anyone he would have been wiped out and he knew it. His economy is in shreds and he was on his knees. Very little to do with Trump.



Well I thought you would have detected my hyperbole Horace 

But if one missile went off,  do you not think everyone else might have piled in? China,  Russia,  NATO?


----------



## wayneL

Oh and Trump is getting that peace prize, sure as eggs. 

Otherwise the Nobel committee will be exposed as a complete farce.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Oh and Trump is getting that peace prize, sure as eggs.
> 
> Otherwise the Nobel committee will be exposed as a complete farce.




And indeeed he should....  And if the deal is pulled off Kim Jong Un will share the podium as co-winner.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> And indeeed he should....  And if the deal is pulled off Kim Jong Un will share the podium as co-winner.



Nothing would surprise me after Obama, bazza.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Oh and Trump is getting that peace prize, sure as eggs.
> 
> Otherwise the Nobel committee will be exposed as a complete farce.




The Nobel committee is pretty much a farce isn't it? Espeically when it come to awarding these Peace prizes.

There's Obama getting one for, i don't know, being a black president. There's Henry Kissinger getting one for deciding it's time to end the war he freaking orchestrated more than anyone. 

Shouldn't the rule be that if you're the one who started the war and aggression, you ending it will get you a lesser sentence, not a freaking "peace prize".


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> *Giuliani: Trump reimbursed Cohen for $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels*
> By Jacqueline Thomsen - 05/02/18 09:51 PM EDT   1,904
> 9,489
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Autoplay:* On | Off
> Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) said Wednesday that President Trump reimbursed his personal attorney Michael Cohen the $130,000 paid to adult-film star Stormy Daniels to stay quiet about their alleged affair.
> 
> http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...eimbursed-cohen-for-payment-to-stormy-daniels
> 
> 
> Interesting.. Don't I remember somewhere that Michael Cohen paid out Stormy Daniels from his own funds, Donald Trump knew absolutely nothing about it and that the Don himself flatly denied any awareness of such a payment ?




I think Trump has decided that there is too much evidence about to come out from the Cohen investigation that would allow him to continue denying the Stormy Daniels affair. That would then raise the probability that he could be got for campaign funding violations. By now paying Cohen back from his own pocket, he is trying to delink Cohen's payment to Daniels as a defacto campaign contribution and try to have it seen as a personal issue. The fact that it shows everything he has said to date on the Stormy Daniels issue as a lie is of lesser concern to him than campaign funding violation charges. He already knows his support base doesn’t care how much he lies.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> I think Trump has decided that there is too much evidence about to come out from the Cohen investigation that would allow him to continue denying the Stormy Daniels affair. That would then raise the probability that he could be got for campaign funding violations. By now paying Cohen back from his own pocket, he is trying to delink Cohen's payment to Daniels as a defacto campaign contribution and try to have it seen as a personal issue. The fact that it shows everything he has said to date on the Stormy Daniels issue as a lie is of lesser concern to him than campaign funding violation charges. He already knows his support base doesn’t care how much he lies.




Now it's confirmed, will he demand his money back for breach of contract?


----------



## bellenuit

I have never paid much attention to Cavuto on Fox, so I don't know if he just happens to be a lot less biased than the others. However, I was staggered to come across this. Is Fox News bailing on the president or is this typical Cavuto?


----------



## Darc Knight

wayneL said:


> Well I thought you would have detected my hyperbole Horace
> 
> But if one missile went off,  do you not think everyone else might have piled in? China,  Russia,  NATO?



China was against Nth Korea kicking off anything due to the refugee crisis China would have had to endure on their border, not to mention having a Lunatic with a bad haircut with Nukes living next door. I'd say China played as big a role as Trump did in bringing Nth Korea to reason.
As for dear ole dckhd Vlad, he just likes to whip his shirt off and yell loud or poison defenceless people. Russia didn't do anything whe U.S. attacked Assad, despite Putin's bare chest.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> I have never paid much attention to Cavuto on Fox, so I don't know if he just happens to be a lot less biased than the others. However, I was staggered to come across this. Is Fox News bailing on the president or is this typical Cavuto?





Priceless. Is this like the kid talking about The Emporers new clothes ?


----------



## IFocus

Looking forward to watching NK hand over their nuks to Donald, NK unifying with the South while the Chinese look on..............Hahhahah 

Yep hand over the peace prize now greatest ever given


----------



## explod

How about the septic tanks handing over their nukes, hey hey


----------



## Darc Knight

explod said:


> How about the septic tanks handing over their nukes, hey hey



That's a good point. Someone once made the point to me that the Yanks don't want anyone else with more Military power than them, that's why they go so hard against anyone with an infant Nuclear program or chemical weapons program. It's all self interest, rather than an attempt to achieve world peace. If America were a small struggling nation you reckon they'd be trying to process Nukes?


----------



## basilio

Soap rides again.  After it's 1980 smash debut we have a 2018 version of Soap that stars The Prez, a pr0n Star, as assorted range of wannabe  family politicians and a wealth of crazy crooked lawyers.

Saturday Night  live is running teh series exceptionally well. Check it out

*http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-...saturday-night-live-in-call-to-donald/9733138*


----------



## bellenuit

This is interesting, if true. I haven't come across anything previously suggesting Russian tampering with the actual election count or in this case, ability of people to vote.

*Now we know why Donald Trump “won” all four surprise swing states by the same one percent*

*http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/why-one-percent-donald-trump/10073/*


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> This is interesting, if true. I haven't come across anything previously suggesting Russian tampering with the actual election count or in this case, ability of people to vote.
> 
> *Now we know why Donald Trump “won” all four surprise swing states by the same one percent*
> 
> *http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/why-one-percent-donald-trump/10073/*




Dynamite..I didn't realise that all the 4 surprise wins had been by the  *same 1% figure*. That doesn't make sense does it ? What happened to very close wins or slightly larger ones.  

Be interesting to see if this gets the investigation it warrants.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Dynamite..I didn't realise that all the 4 surprise wins had been by the  *same 1% figure*. That doesn't make sense does it ? What happened to very close wins or slightly larger ones.
> 
> Be interesting to see if this gets the investigation it warrants.



Explained a bit here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-l...Trump-actually-won-every-surprise-swing-state


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Explained a bit here:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-l...Trump-actually-won-every-surprise-swing-state





I saw an interview with Clinton where she acknowledged Trump targetted specific states with some of his special magic, without her team knowing until too late to countervail.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Explained a bit here:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-l...Trump-actually-won-every-surprise-swing-state




The thing about the Quora article is that it was written in 2016 and all the comments are also from that year and they are all referencing a Palmer article from November 18 2016. One of the comments contained this point:

_2.) There has been no reputable evidence of voting machine hacking playing a part in shaping the outcome of this election. I am not saying that I am certain if it did or did not take place, but claims that not only did it occur, but that it led to Trump’s victory, are completely baseless without evidence._

However, the article I posted online today and to which you commented _Explained a bit here_ pointing to the 2016 articles and comments, was written just 4 days ago and contained this piece of information that was not included in or known at the time of the 2016 Palmer article:

_*The Senate Intel Committee released a bipartisan report this week which confirmed that Russian hackers penetrated voter registration data in key states, and were in position to alter or delete voter registration data.* So now we know it wasn’t a matter of the hackers breaking in on election night and rewriting the vote totals. Instead the hackers broke in beforehand and sabotaged the registration data for just enough targeted voters so as to keep them from being able to vote when they showed up._

I am assuming that part in bold (my addition) is confirmed by the Senate Intel Committee and the rest is speculation on that fact by Palmer. So there was no evidence of voter machine hacking as dissed by the 2016 commenter, but there is evidence of penetration of voter registration data, which is what the more recent Palmer article is using as the basis for its piece.

I haven't had time to look for the Senate Intel Report, but it would be interesting if it is saying just that the hackers were in position to alter or delete voter registration data or whether they actually have proof that *they did* alter that data.


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> I haven't had time to look for the Senate Intel Report, but it would be interesting if it is saying just that the hackers were in position to alter or delete voter registration data or whether they actually have proof that *they did* alter that data.




I still haven't found the original report, but commentary from diverse sources including those known to be opposed to Trump (Washington Post and Huffington Post) suggest that although the hackers had penetrated the voter registration info in a small number of cases, there is no evidence they actually did tamper with that data.


----------



## moXJO

I'll scan around. Sounds a bit far fetched though.


----------



## moXJO

Palmer report is a liberal propaganda rag. Mixes enough facts with bs to make it sound credible.


----------



## basilio

Live ( and death) in Jerusalem.  How to totally burn your friends, allies and everyone else who isn't a Jew in Israel. ( Acknowledgements to those Jews who don't agree with the Armys response.)

* Israel faces outcry over Gaza killings during Jerusalem embassy protests *
Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel obliged to ‘defend its borders’ after dozens of protesters die during Gaza’s bloodiest day since 2014 war

Oliver Holmes in Jerusalem and Hazem Balousha in Gaza City

Tue 15 May 2018 04.55 BST   First published on Mon 14 May 2018 10.38 BST

39k


1:32
Palestinians killed as US opens embassy in Jerusalem – video report
Israel faced international condemnation after Gaza had its bloodiest day in years on Monday when Israeli forces killed 55 Palestinians and wounded at least 1,200 during protests against the opening of the US embassy in Jerusalem.

The funerals of those killed are expected to take place in the coastal enclave today, coinciding with the day Palestinians mark the “Nakba”, or catastrophe, commemorating the more than 700,000 Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes in the 1948 war surrounding Israel’s creation.

The UN human rights chief, Zeid Ra’ad al-Hussein, decried Monday’s “shocking killing of dozens”, saying “those responsible for outrageous human rights violations must be held to account”.

Turkey said it would recall its ambassadors to the US and Israel, and its president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, described Israel’s actions as “genocide”. South Africa also recalled its ambassador in protest at the “violent aggression carried out by Israeli armed forces”.

French president Emmanuel Macron “condemned the violence of the Israeli armed forces against protesters” in a telephone conversation with Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas and Jordan’s King Abdullah II. He also reaffirmed criticism of the US decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem.

Kuwait requested an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, which diplomats later told AFP the US had blocked.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...they-are-risking-lives-in-us-embassy-protests


----------



## basilio

And in whose name is this hideous  provocation of an Embassy being blessed ?

*Pastor who prayed at embassy opening *
*is 'a religious bigot', says Mitt Romney *
Robert Jeffress delivered blessing and praised Trump’s ‘determination and courage’ in moving embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem

Martin Pengelly and agencies

 @MartinPengelly 
Mon 14 May 2018 17.57 BST   First published on Mon 14 May 2018 13.10 BST

*Shares*
3915




*Robert Jeffress has drawn severe criticism for calling Islam and Mormonism ‘heresy from the pit of hell’ and saying Jews ‘can’t be saved’. Photograph: Carolyn Kaster/AP*
An evangelical pastor who former presidential candidate Mitt Romney denounced as a “religious bigot” delivered a prayer at the opening of the US embassy in Jerusalem on Monday.

Praising Donald Trump’s “determination, resolve, courage” in moving the embassy from Tel Aviv despite warnings that the ploy would provoke violent protest, Robert Jeffress said God had “has given us a president” who “stands on … the right side of you, oh God, when it comes to Israel”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-us-embassy-embassy-donald-trump-mitt-romney


----------



## wayneL

Is Islamophilia a thought crime?


----------



## luutzu

N.Korea might be pulling out of the June 12th meeting in Singapore. Didn't like the war game the US and South Korea is going to play as he leaves home for peace talks. 

A pretty funny take on WMD and disarmament. Russians do have a good sense of humour.


----------



## Tisme

America improves and Australia upticks. Any gratitude ...nope.

If an imbecile is running the USA, what does that say about the calibre of those who stalled their economy prior?


----------



## bellenuit

It looks like the summit may be in trouble unfortunately. I was surprised that some had thought that NK would give up their nuclear arsenal and their optimism hearing NK was willing to come to talks was based on unrealistic assumptions of what NK would agree to. It is also quite clear that NK's willingness to destroy their testing facility was nothing more than showmanship as the facilities were severely damaged in any case, which was confirmed by China.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> It looks like the summit may be in trouble unfortunately. I was surprised that some had thought that NK would give up their nuclear arsenal and their optimism hearing NK was willing to come to talks was based on unrealistic assumptions of what NK would agree to. It is also quite clear that NK's willingness to destroy their testing facility was nothing more than showmanship as the facilities were severely damaged in any case, which was confirmed by China.





If you're Kim, would you leave your castle for a faraway meeting where the full military of the country you're meeting are going to have a war game that involves taking you out?

It'd be insane for NK, or Iran, to put down their nuclear weapons. Not saying those countries' gov't are nice or good. Just from a sane perspective, talking peace and disarm yourself when treaties can be broken and promises were never kept... not a good idea.

And John Bolton saying NK should follow "the Libyan Model" and denuclearised. Libya got properly bombed soon after right?

Maybe the advisers around Kim do read history, or watch Chinese historical dramas. They would at least know that after the Three Kingdoms from Han's China were united, with the TsaoTsao dynasty taking control... then soon lost in a single day because the new Emperor took his entire family and senior advisers to pray at the family's temple.


----------



## basilio

And John Bolton asking Kim to follow "the Libyan Model".  Nothing subtle there at all.  Just give everything up and trust us......

The North Koreans despise John Bolton.  He has serious history in torpedoing any efforts at rapproachment between NK and the rest of the world.

* Trump faces North Korea dilemma after John Bolton infuriates Pyongyang *

Trump is keen to keep his appointment in Singapore but the row involving his national security adviser presents a serious hurdle.

.... Bolton has a track record with the North Koreans, who blame him for persuading the George W Bush administration to quit a 1994 nuclear deal, the Agreed Framework. In his memoir, Surrender is Not an Option, Bolton boasts about his success in torpedoing state department efforts to keep talks with Pyongyang alive, deriding the diplomats as appeasers.

At the time, the regime denounced him as “human scum” and a “bloodsucker”, banning him from any bilateral talks. On Wednesday, the first deputy prime minister, Kim Kye-gwan, made it clear that the regime’s antipathy had not mellowed with time, noting “we do not hide our feeling of repugnance towards him”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/16/trump-north-korea-nuclear-summit-john-bolton


----------



## basilio

"If an imbecile is running the US what does that say about people who think he is doing a great job ?"


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> "If an imbecile is running the US what does that say about people who think he is doing a great job ?"



Whats his genuine stats against other Presidents?


----------



## wayneL

Trump may be many things,  but an imbecile he is not. 

A point you may have lost in the subtle irony there bas. 

What does that say about folks eager to label those as ibeciles whose IQ is dozens of points above their own?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Trump may be many things, but an imbecile he is not.




A former Secretary of State disagrees.

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/145257/now-know-rex-tillerson-called-trump-moron


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> A former Secretary of State disagrees.
> 
> https://newrepublic.com/minutes/145257/now-know-rex-tillerson-called-trump-moron




So it's just "moron", not "f'ing moron"? 

It's like living in the years Nero rule over Rome. The only difference is this Nero made it as a showman. That and plenty of fire and fury at his tiny fingertips.


----------



## moXJO

How many of you high IQ people are president of the USA? 
Or even your own boss?

Trump isn't a politician. So of course he doesn't know a lot about the political sphere. Thats the whole reason Hillary is crying on the abc. And keeps company with other losers like Gillard. Trump was an outsider.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> A former Secretary of State disagrees.
> 
> https://newrepublic.com/minutes/145257/now-know-rex-tillerson-called-trump-moron



A lot of republican presidential candidates did as well. And then he beat them.
 He may very well be the dumbest man on the planet. But he beat all the other contenders. So what does that really say about them.
He understood the voters mood. Hired the best and brightest. Didn't underestimate Dillary Clinton. And here we are. 

The shock on the Democrats faces will last a lifetime. As will there tears it seems.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> And John Bolton asking Kim to follow "the Libyan Model".  Nothing subtle there at all.  Just give everything up and trust us......
> 
> The North Koreans despise John Bolton.  He has serious history in torpedoing any efforts at rapproachment between NK and the rest of the world.
> 
> * Trump faces North Korea dilemma after John Bolton infuriates Pyongyang *
> 
> Trump is keen to keep his appointment in Singapore but the row involving his national security adviser presents a serious hurdle.
> 
> .... Bolton has a track record with the North Koreans, who blame him for persuading the George W Bush administration to quit a 1994 nuclear deal, the Agreed Framework. In his memoir, Surrender is Not an Option, Bolton boasts about his success in torpedoing state department efforts to keep talks with Pyongyang alive, deriding the diplomats as appeasers.
> 
> At the time, the regime denounced him as “human scum” and a “bloodsucker”, banning him from any bilateral talks. On Wednesday, the first deputy prime minister, Kim Kye-gwan, made it clear that the regime’s antipathy had not mellowed with time, noting “we do not hide our feeling of repugnance towards him”.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/16/trump-north-korea-nuclear-summit-john-bolton




There go that Nobel Peace Prize.


----------



## Knobby22

;







luutzu said:


> There go that Nobel Peace Prize.



Trump has only just hired the guy from FOX. Hard to sack him this quickly. He wants to get that noble prize.

Personally if he pulls this off I think he should get it , shared with Xi Jinping and it should be awarded at the same time.  It could be argued Xi did just as much (if not more) through influence.
Would make me smile to see them sharing the glory together on the same stage.


----------



## moXJO

The sanctions are doing damage more than anything. That and the shift in technology.

Trumps more of an open platform to get deals done. Ideally the US wants to get NK to open up more. 
Kim is losing the fight with the public and their interest in freedom is growing. 

Can't block the outside world any longer,  not with all the technology available. That and no money.


----------



## Knobby22

Knobby22 said:


> Personally if he pulls this off I think he should get it , shared with Xi Jinping and it should be awarded at the same time.
> Would make me smile to see them sharing the glory together on the same stage.




(The reason it would make me smile is that it would kill Trump to share the glory).


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> (The reason it would make me smile is that it would kill Trump to share the glory).




In that case, we better hurry and lobby the Nobel committee to award them a shared one 

Trump just said "the Libya model" would be implemented on North Korea if it didn't make a deal with him. 

Dam it, he really wanted that peace prize. That and "victory for the world".


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The sanctions are doing damage more than anything. That and the shift in technology.
> 
> Trumps more of an open platform to get deals done. Ideally the US wants to get NK to open up more.
> Kim is losing the fight with the public and their interest in freedom is growing.
> 
> Can't block the outside world any longer,  not with all the technology available. That and no money.





Here's a great interview covering some history on US involvement in the Korean Peninsular and its sanctions on NK.

Apparently two junior ranking officer from the US was tasked by Truman, sent to a room, and with a National Geographic map of Korea they split it into two: One good, one evil.


----------



## wayneL

You Marxists ate so cynical and duplicitous...  Sheez


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> You Marxists ate so cynical and duplicitous...  Sheez




Are you saying Trump is a Marxist ?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> You Marxists ate so cynical and duplicitous...  Sheez




About the 1.20 mark.

*Trump: *The Libya Model.... now that model (is where we went in and kick the crap out of Qaddafi) is not the model we have in mind at all. It will be the model if Kim refuse to negotiate and drop his nukes. As in, drop developing it, not drop it 


Damn it Lil' Kim, Trump really wanted peace. And if you refuse, he's going to Libya your azz.

You can't make these up.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Are you saying Trump is a Marxist ?




Billionaires of the world, unite.


----------



## Tisme

Fifth estate getting very bold indeed. My guess is that legal action will eventually sort them out:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region




> Did the president of the United States just betray the nation’s security in return for a bribe from the Chinese government?
> 
> Don’t say that this suggestion is ridiculous: Given everything we know about Donald Trump, it’s well within the bounds of possibility, even plausibility. ....cont


----------



## bellenuit

Bill Maher at his best. Depressing if true....


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Fifth estate getting very bold indeed. My guess is that legal action will eventually sort them out:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region




Looks as dodgy a series of quid pro quos as one has ever seen.  And it's a lay down misere that if any country wants to brook favour with Donald Trump they will need to  come up with a juicy business deal for one of his international companies. Let's see Don take this to court.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Bill Maher at his best. Depressing if true....





Bill Maher is always on the money. He is quite right; Donald Trump is above the law. Everything he is doing is stating that he will never accept any legal confrontation of anything he has done. Not accepting the FBI investigation, continuing to call all complainants about sexual harrassment "liars", declaring any  suggestion of malpractice "false news" and threatening to sue the pants off anyone who dares make such a statement. What else would you call this behaviour ?

And the Republician party are so morally bankrupt they will let him get away with this behaviour indefinately.


----------



## basilio

And here is someone else for Don to sue for daring to suggest he deals out favours on the basis of kick backs to his own companies.

Clearly more fake news..

*Trump Orders Help For Chinese Phone-Maker After China Approves Money For Trump Project*
*Trump will profit from Indonesian resort project that will get $500 million in Chinese loans in a deal sealed days before before his tweet ordering help for ZTE.*
177k

 
  By S.V. Date 
X

WASHINGTON – A mere 72 hours after the Chinese government agreed to put a half-billion dollars into an Indonesian project that will personally enrich Donald Trump, the president ordered a bailout for a Chinese-government-owned cellphone maker.

“President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast,” Trump announced on Twitter Sunday morning. “Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!”

Trump did not mention in that tweet or its follow-ups that on Thursday, the developer of a theme park resort outside of Jakarta had signed a deal to receive as much as $500 million in Chinese government loans, as well as another $500 million from Chinese banks, according to Agence France-Presse. Trump’s family business, the Trump Organization, has a deal to license the Trump name to the resort, which includes a golf course and hotels.

Trump, despite his campaign promises to turn over his businesses and have no involvement with them, has still not fully divested himself of his businesses, and continues to profit from them.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/trump-china-zte_us_5af9f701e4b0200bcab7fa66


----------



## basilio

Found an intriguing hypothesis about Donald Trumps routine  lying.   The suggestion is  he is basically telling "Blue" lies . These are lies that build solidarity in your own group becasue they kick the xhit out of perceived enemies. Everyone knows their lies - but who cares.  It makes us look good.

*How the Science of “Blue Lies” May Explain Trump’s Support*
They are a very particular form of deception that can build solidarity within groups

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...ence-of-blue-lies-may-explain-trumps-support/


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Found an intriguing hypothesis about Donald Trumps routine  lying.   The suggestion is  he is basically telling "Blue" lies . These are lies that build solidarity in your own group becasue they kick the xhit out of perceived enemies. Everyone knows their lies - but who cares.  It makes us look good.
> 
> *How the Science of “Blue Lies” May Explain Trump’s Support*
> They are a very particular form of deception that can build solidarity within groups
> 
> https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...ence-of-blue-lies-may-explain-trumps-support/




Yes, it's pretty obvious that he's running a divide and conquer strategy, speaking to his own supporters and ignoring the rest. Crude but effective. I wonder if the other side will be tempted to respond likewise or take the moral high ground ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, it's pretty obvious that he's running a divide and conquer strategy, speaking to his own supporters and ignoring the rest. Crude but effective. I wonder if the other side will be tempted to respond likewise or take the moral high ground ?



Hillary polarized 40% of the pop by calling them "deplorable". All that did was draw battle lines and kick things off. 
The left media is already printing fake news. It gave Trump enough ammo to say all bad news was fake. America is divided and a lot worse off because of it.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Hillary polarized 40% of the pop by calling them "deplorable". All that did was draw battle lines and kick things off.
> The left media is already printing fake news. It gave Trump enough ammo to say all bad news was fake. America is divided and a lot worse off because of it.




Don't blame Hillary and the left media for Trump. He was put in place by the Right and in particular the Evangelical Christian Right. He would not be able to continue as he is doing; usurping the Constitution on religious separation from state, blatant lying about everything, willingness to act in ways bordering on treasonous etc; only that he has support from those same factions, who are turning a blind eye to everything that they had previously stood for.

The fact that Hillary may not have been a good choice of candidate is no excuse for getting behind and supporting a candidate so despicable as Trump.


----------



## Tisme

Direct involvement by Trump's sons, not President




> The Trump Organization and MNC signed deals in 2015 for Lido and a Bali project, resulting in almost $3.7 million in licensing and consulting payments for the Trump Organization, according to MNC’s most recent annual report.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Direct involvement by Trump's sons, not President




And that isn't a prima facie case of  conflict of interest  ?  The CFO in your company decides to award multi million dollar contacts to his brother/father/son ?


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Don't blame Hillary and the left media for Trump. He was put in place by the Right and in particular the Evangelical Christian Right. He would not be able to continue as he is doing; usurping the Constitution on religious separation from state, blatant lying about everything, willingness to act in ways bordering on treasonous etc; only that he has support from those same factions, who are turning a blind eye to everything that they had previously stood for.
> 
> The fact that Hillary may not have been a good choice of candidate is no excuse for getting behind and supporting a candidate so despicable as Trump.



That is absolutely incorrect. In fact the radical left is responsible for Trump (and we should thank them for that) because of their ideological  and poisonous excess.

I also posit that despite Hillarys greater political nous her administration would be about 10 times more despicable, just saying.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I also posit that despite Hillarys greater political nous her administration would be about 10 times more despicable, just saying.




In what way ?


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Don't blame Hillary and the left media for Trump. He was put in place by the Right and in particular the Evangelical Christian Right. He would not be able to continue as he is doing; usurping the Constitution on religious separation from state, blatant lying about everything, willingness to act in ways bordering on treasonous etc; only that he has support from those same factions, who are turning a blind eye to everything that they had previously stood for.
> 
> The fact that Hillary may not have been a good choice of candidate is no excuse for getting behind and supporting a candidate so despicable as Trump.



That wasn't how the election was won.
They sacrificed Bernie for Clintons ambition.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> In what way ?



More empowerment of identity politics for one.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> In what way ?




They'd be doing the same crap but do it with very polite words. 

And it's please and thank yous that makes all the difference. 

That and "Freedom", "brother's keeper", hope, change or "'merka is already great" we just need to make it more great, again.


----------



## basilio

*The On again. Off again, On again saga of the  Peace summit.*

How quickly things chnage in the Trumpian world. On Thursday Donald Trump abruptly cancelled the peace summit with North Korea. He reckoned they were being too mean. Even wrote his own letter explaining how sad he felt about the situation.

* Donald Trump cancels North Korea nuclear summit *
Trump letter to Kim Jong-un says talks are ‘inappropriate’ but North Korea says it made utmost effort to hold summit

Donald Trump has cancelled his planned summit with the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, blaming his decision on a threatening statement from the Pyongyang regime, and warning that the US military is “ready if necessary”.

The abrupt decision, which came as a surprise to US allies in the region, came after an exchange of menacing statements from US and North Korean officials.

North Korea responded to the cancellation by saying Kim Jong-un had made the utmost effort to hold the summit with President Trump and the country was willing to resolve issues with the United States.

“We tell the United States once more that we are open to resolving problems at any time in any way,” North Korea’s vice foreign minister Kim Kye Gwan said in a statement.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/24/trump-cancels-north-korea-nuclear-summit

Ok.  Next.... Kim Jong-un comes out with probably one of the most effective responses to the Trump decision to cancel the talks.
_
North Korea has said it is still willing to hold direct talks between its leader Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump, calling the planned summit “desperately necessary” to resolve potential hostilities after the US cancelled the meeting.

_
*“We express our willingness to sit down face-to-face with the US and resolve issues anytime and in any format,” North Korea’s vice foreign minister Kim Kye-gwan said in a statement. “Our commitment to doing our best for the sake of peace and stability for the world and the Korean Peninsula remains unchanged, and we are open-minded in giving time and opportunity to the US.”*
_

North Korea’s response moved to place the blame on the US. It has consistently worked to portray itself as the driver of progress in a relationship that has remained hostile for over six decades. Kim Jong-un has been crafting an image of a responsible statesman against an erratic Trump._
*

“Internally we have been quietly giving president Trump high marks for making a decision no other American president had the courage to pursue,” Kim Kye-gwan said.  (What a brilliant little suck job..!)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-open-for-desperately-necessary-trump-summit
*
And the result ?  Donald Truimp is now seriously reconsidering his flip and putting the summit back on.

* Donald Trump says North Korea summit could be back on *

Original date a possibility as US officials talk with Pyongyang
‘They very much want to do it. We’d like to do it’
Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington, Benjamin Haas in Seoul and Justin McCurry in Tokyo

Fri 25 May 2018 16.03 BST   First published on Fri 25 May 2018 15.40 BST

*Shares*
849




Asked if North Korea was playing games, Donald Trump responded: ‘Everybody plays games.’ Photograph: Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images
Donald Trump has suggested his summit with Kim Jong-un could still go on as planned, marking yet another dramatic reversal for the US president who just a day earlier canceled the meeting in a letter to the North Korean leader.

“We’ll see what happens,” Trump told reporters at the White House on Friday, adding that his administration was in talks with Pyongyang and the summit was still possible on its originally scheduled date of 12 June.

“They very much want to do it. We’d like to do it,” he added.

Asked if North Korea was playing games, Trump responded, “Everybody plays games.”

Trump tweeted later on Friday that the US was having “very productive talks” with Pyongyang about the possible summit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/25/donald-trump-north-korea-summit-reversal


----------



## Tisme

http://www.ntd.tv/2018/05/30/trump-signs-bill-to-allow-patients-to-try-experimental-treatments/

See the monster and child abuse


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> http://www.ntd.tv/2018/05/30/trump-signs-bill-to-allow-patients-to-try-experimental-treatments/
> 
> See the monster and child abuse




The law aren't designed to help terminally ill patient. It says it does, but words are not deeds and intention. 

Permitting experimental drugs on patient like Trump has is just allowing drug companies more guinea pigs to test on. It takes away incentives for them to better develop and test the drug for efficacy before trying it on humans as a possible treatment.

Passing the first phase of clinical trial just mean, from memory, the drug proves that it doesn't kill its patient. 

So while it appear that this law help patient, it sure give people hope... often false hope. And I don't think it's free either.

In NZ, that's the one I read up on, their FDA permit the fast-tracked and treatment of experimental drugs on patient where no other drugs for the disease is available. I think one of the condition imposed is that the experimental drugs and its application are completely free, or completely free. 

The US FDA, can't be sure but I might have read it while doing some research, also currently permit this. So Trump's Right to Try is either a nothing burger or permitting pharma to charge for experimental drugs as though it's a proper, serious, treatment.
-------------

In other news... Trump's new deal to force big pharma drug prices down for American is.... trump roll... is to stop other countries health department from being able to negotiate for lower drug prices. 

So single-payer countries like Australia, Canada, Europe... the government use their buying power, and legislation, to force drug companies to negotiate a better deal. Bulk buying tend to give you a discount.

But that's bad... and so Trump's American power is going to start telling its allies to stop interfering in "free trade", do not dare negotiate as a large entity... be like the US gov't and pay twice as much for the same drug. 

Seriously.

This, it is argued, will mean Americans can then pay less for their drugs. Apparently, big pharma are making losses in those socialist country where they make a minimum of 50% profit margin. So if they could make more, they will, honestly, fingers crossed, lower their prices for Americans. 

But to be fair, can't put this on Trump. He just sign whatever that's put in front of him.


----------



## basilio

The Trump International Trade war is picking up speed. The ride of our life perhaps ?
 
* US on brink of trade war with EU, Canada and Mexico as tit-for-tat tariffs begin *

Trump administration goes ahead with threatened tariffs on steel and aluminium as allies pledge to hit back


Trump imposes tariffs – business live
Larry Elliott and Richard Partington in London, and Edward Helmore in New York

Thu 31 May 2018 19.56 BST   First published on Thu 31 May 2018 15.02 BST

*Shares*
4955



The Port Talbot steel works in Wales are the biggest in Britain. Photograph: Dimitris Legakis for the Guardian
The United States and its traditional allies are on the brink of a full-scale trade war after European and Canadian leaders reacted swiftly and angrily to Donald Trump’s decision to impose tariffs on steel and aluminium producers.

*  World leaders hit back at Trump over 'totally unacceptable' tariffs – as it happened  *
Read more
The president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, promised immediate retaliation after the US commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, said EU companies would face a 25% duty on steel and a 10% duty on aluminium from midnight on Thursday.

Europe, along with Canada and Mexico, had been granted a temporary reprieve from the tariffs after they were unveiled by Donald Trump two months ago.

However, Ross sent shudders through global financial markets when he said insufficient progress had been made in talks with three of the US’s traditional allies to reduce America’s trade deficit and that the waiver was being lifted.

Wall Street slumped as the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed down more than 250 points as investors sold off shares in manufacturers and corporations with global reach. Shares across Europe also declined.

The move from Washington – which comes at a time when Trump is also threatening protectionist action against China – triggered an immediate and angry response from Canada, Brussels and from individual European capitals.

Juncker called the US move “unjustified” and said the EU had no choice but to hit back with tariffs on US goods and a case at the World Trade Organisation in Geneva.

“We will defend the Union’s interests, in full compliance with international trade law,” he added. Brussels has already announced that it would target Levi’s jeans, Harley-Davidson motorbikes and bourbon whiskey.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-salvo-in-trade-war-with-eu-canada-and-mexico


----------



## Tisme

https://www.naturalnews.com/2018-05...-obama-committing-crimes-against-america.html


----------



## bellenuit

Tisme said:


> https://www.naturalnews.com/2018-05...-obama-committing-crimes-against-america.html




Natural News is rightly regarded as one of the worst news sites on the internet. Full of conspiracy theories and the goto source for anti-vaxxers, homeopathy proponents, chem trail "proofs" etc.

Just take a moment to look at the ads on that page to see the type of audience it has. I saw it described once as one of the most dangerous sites on the internet due to the constant stream of false news and complete disregard for the truth - but unfortunately it has a huge gullible audience.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> Natural News is rightly regarded as one of the worst news sites on the internet. Full of conspiracy theories and the goto source for anti-vaxxers, homeopathy proponents, chem trail "proofs" etc.
> 
> Just take a moment to look at the ads on that page to see the type of audience it has. I saw it described once as one of the most dangerous sites on the internet due to the constant stream of false news and complete disregard for the truth - but unfortunately it has a huge gullible audience.




But it's on the internet so it must be true


----------



## SirRumpole

Some sage words from American neuroscientist and author Sam Harris on Trump, social media and Islam.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ruth-and-lies-in-the-donald-trump-era/9819290


----------



## basilio

Nice find Rumpy. Had to directly quote Sam Harris comments re Donald Trump.

_*How Donald Trump rewrites the rules of reality*
"Honestly, thus far, that [the casualty of truth] is the most harmful aspect of his presidency. Just the complete ruination of any standard of honesty in political discourse and it's astonishing to me. I have not yet accepted that this is even possible, much less actual. I don't think I'm alone, but I'm continually having the bewildering experience that I just cannot believe that this person is president. It is all focused on this particular aspect of his presidency, where he lies more than any person has ever lied in human history and not only does he get away with it, his supporters seem to delight in his running roughshod over any expectation that a public figure would be honest. It's not a bug, it's a feature for them and that's really disturbing. He has enough people that support him for whom the lying is not actually a problem, it's a technique. It's a kind of naked declaration of power, where he doesn't have to observe your expectations about what is logical or coherent or responsive to facts. He can just say what he wants, because it's the impression he wants to leave with you. He wants a certain language in the air and he just puts it there.

But all lying is just destructive of the social fabric, even so called white lies undermine trust, they undermine relationships, they destroy reputations — that is in a context where people care about the truth. But what's amazing now, we seem to be in some kind of freefall with respect to this and so many people do not care if you are caught lying. And Donald Trump seems to have rewritten the rules.
_
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ruth-and-lies-in-the-donald-trump-era/9819290


----------



## basilio

Trumps Law.
1)  I can do no wrong because I am "The President"
2)  Because I am "The President"  I can *absolutely* pardon myself

* Donald Trump claims he has 'absolute right to pardon myself' *

Trump: ‘Why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong?’
President renews attack on special counsel Russia investigation
Ben Jacobs in Washington and agencies

 @Bencjacobs 
Mon 4 Jun 2018 22.27 BST   First published on Mon 4 Jun 2018 14.17 BST

*Shares*
2759




Donald Trump said his right to pardon had been ‘stated by numerous legal scholars’. Photograph: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images
In his latest broadside against the Russia investigation, Donald Trump claimed on Monday to have an “absolute right to pardon myself”. The president added: “But why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong?”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/04/trump-pardon-russia-mueller-investigation-tweet

_______________________________________________________
Really ? The legal eagles have another view.  One sample.

*‘I have no patience for theoretical arguments on this issue’*
Elizabeth de la Vega, former federal prosecutor, via email:

*Of course, the president is not above the law.* Indeed, I have no patience for theoretical arguments on this issue. The president shows gross disregard for the constitution and our justice system daily; he’s rampaging through it like Attila the Hun. Rather than swirling off into an abstract frenzy in response to Trump’s manic tweets,* let us ask, relentlessly, what, specifically, does the president propose to pardon himself for?*

Unless and until he answers that question, we should steadfastly avoid allowing him to draw us into debating his insane and ephemeral legal-sounding pronouncements. It’s quite enough to say: ‘*No, you’re not above the law, Mr President. Tell us what crimes you’ve committed. Tell us what you propose to pardon yourself for. Then we’ll talk.’
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...t-that-he-can-pardon-himself-experts-weigh-in


----------



## explod

Have been so bemused and flabbergasted at the down turn in society that I avoid these threads but I think the days are numbered for our ole car salesman now:-

"
*Donald Trump Will Be Impeached*

*https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-03/donald-trump-will-be-impeached"*


----------



## Junior

basilio said:


> Nice find Rumpy. Had to directly quote Sam Harris comments re Donald Trump.
> 
> _*How Donald Trump rewrites the rules of reality*
> "Honestly, thus far, that [the casualty of truth] is the most harmful aspect of his presidency. Just the complete ruination of any standard of honesty in political discourse and it's astonishing to me. I have not yet accepted that this is even possible, much less actual. I don't think I'm alone, but I'm continually having the bewildering experience that I just cannot believe that this person is president. It is all focused on this particular aspect of his presidency, where he lies more than any person has ever lied in human history and not only does he get away with it, his supporters seem to delight in his running roughshod over any expectation that a public figure would be honest. It's not a bug, it's a feature for them and that's really disturbing. He has enough people that support him for whom the lying is not actually a problem, it's a technique. It's a kind of naked declaration of power, where he doesn't have to observe your expectations about what is logical or coherent or responsive to facts. He can just say what he wants, because it's the impression he wants to leave with you. He wants a certain language in the air and he just puts it there.
> 
> But all lying is just destructive of the social fabric, even so called white lies undermine trust, they undermine relationships, they destroy reputations — that is in a context where people care about the truth. But what's amazing now, we seem to be in some kind of freefall with respect to this and so many people do not care if you are caught lying. And Donald Trump seems to have rewritten the rules.
> _
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ruth-and-lies-in-the-donald-trump-era/9819290




This is what bothers me the most too.  

I always believed honesty to be a positive and desirable attribute.  Of course we all know politicians are famous for lying, but Trump's lying is relentless and constant.  You cannot believe a word the man says.  Yet some choose to believe it all in the face overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


----------



## explod

A lot of evidence is based on false news also.  

Cannot truly believe anyone in most current agenda's today.

Party on and enjoy each day you have left.  Or is that "right"


----------



## basilio

This analysis from The Atlantic opens another facet on Trumps statement of being able to pardon himself.

*Trump and Giuliani Accidentally Make the Case for Impeachment*
By invoking the specter of a self-pardon, the president and his defenders are implicitly suggesting that only Congress can constrain an executive's lawless behavior.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...the-president-actually-pardon-himself/561923/


----------



## moXJO

He can't pardon himself from impeachment.

I'm interested in the job figures. Is it true that unemployment among women is the lowest in 60 years?

Also lowest in black, Hispanic communities for a while?

There are to many layers of bs in the leftist media. Give me facts and figures on the economy without personal opinions clouding up the truth.
Trump does seem like a lying shtbag. So do most pollies.


----------



## basilio

Moxjo there is no BS in quoting what Donald Trump says.  Forget "leftist bias" rubbish. Every single paper will report exactly the same thing about what Donald trump said.

 1) I believe I absolutely have the power to pardon myself .
 2) But in any case I've done nothing.

This is a President who knows no limits.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Moxjo there is no BS in quoting what Donald Trump says.  Forget "leftist bias" rubbish. Every single paper will report exactly the same thing about what Donald trump said.
> 
> 1) I believe I absolutely have the power to pardon myself .
> 2) But in any case I've done nothing.
> 
> This is a President who knows no limits.



He can pardon himself,  the statement is true. But he would be impeached hard and fast.  This was a twitter comment I believe?  Out of that we get a ridiculous amount of comments. He must have a reason why he keeps posting this crap.

We need to wait on the results of the investigation to see if anything wrong has been done.

I was talking more about conversations on the economy where opinion spin replaces figures.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> He must have a reason why he keeps posting this crap.




Yep. It seems to be part of his strategy to undermine the Mueller investigation and continue to "normalise" political actions that until now everyone has considered totally unacceptable. 

But the idea of what is "unacceptable" political activity has been  systematically by a President who decides that anything he says is acceptable.

*Trump’s New Strategy for Responding to Robert Mueller*
The president’s message focuses on undermining the investigators and investigation, rather than insisting that no crimes were committed.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...tegy-for-responding-to-robert-mueller/560723/

_____________________________________________

By the way have you ever seen the fantastic economic results achieved by Adolf Hitler from 1933-1938 ? Quite exceptional in terms of employment, business activity and national Pride.

And FDR  managed to turn the economy around from the disaster of 1933 (final collapse of the banks ) to around 1936.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Yep. It seems to be part of his strategy to undermine the Mueller investigation and continue to "normalise" political actions that until now everyone has considered totally unacceptable.
> 
> But the idea of what is "unacceptable" political activity has been  systematically by a President who decides that anything he says is acceptable.
> 
> *Trump’s New Strategy for Responding to Robert Mueller*
> The president’s message focuses on undermining the investigators and investigation, rather than insisting that no crimes were committed.
> https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...tegy-for-responding-to-robert-mueller/560723/
> 
> _____________________________________________
> 
> By the way have you ever seen the fantastic economic results achieved by Adolf Hitler from 1933-1938 ? Quite exceptional in terms of employment, business activity and national Pride.
> 
> And FDR  managed to turn the economy around from the disaster of 1933 (final collapse of the banks ) to around 1936.



Ego runs deep among US presidents and hopefuls. It's not confined to either side. Look at Hillary Clintons inability to accept she had anything to do with the loss. 
I'm not sure if Trump was involved in the Russia probe. I believe wikileaks played a part,  along with some facebook trolling and fake news. But overall its been overplayed by the dems. 

But have to wait and see.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Yep. It seems to be part of his strategy to undermine the Mueller investigation and continue to "normalise" political actions that until now everyone has considered totally unacceptable.
> 
> But the idea of what is "unacceptable" political activity has been  systematically by a President who decides that anything he says is acceptable.
> 
> *Trump’s New Strategy for Responding to Robert Mueller*
> The president’s message focuses on undermining the investigators and investigation, rather than insisting that no crimes were committed.
> https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...tegy-for-responding-to-robert-mueller/560723/
> 
> _____________________________________________
> 
> By the way have you ever seen the fantastic economic results achieved by Adolf Hitler from 1933-1938 ? Quite exceptional in terms of employment, business activity and national Pride.
> 
> And FDR  managed to turn the economy around from the disaster of 1933 (final collapse of the banks ) to around 1936.



Hitler also made the Olympics what they are today. He made a lot of advances and would have gone down as one of the greats in history. Unfortunately you don't win friends by war and genocide. 

There was a movie years ago based on a true story,  I think it was called "the wave". 
Shows how people slowly accept doing terrible things. 
Teacher shows his students how the German population accepted hitler after a student asks how they could do those terrible things.
Probably more important than ever for people on both sides to remember.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Hitler also made the Olympics what they are today. He made a lot of advances and would have gone down as one of the greats in history. Unfortunately you don't win friends by war and genocide.
> 
> There was a movie years ago based on a true story,  I think it was called "the wave".
> Shows how people slowly accept doing terrible things.
> Teacher shows his students how the German population accepted hitler after a student asks how they could do those terrible things.
> Probably more important than ever for people on both sides to remember.




Wars of expansion and genocide didn't start only with Hitler. They didn't end after Hitler either. 

The population came to accept it because it's in the books at schools and over the airwaves. With dissenting voices being considered nut job leftie, commie, hippies traitors. 

Same script all over the world.


----------



## basilio

MoXjo, the process of how to socialise or groom people/students into accepting authoritarian dictates is one of the key elements of every SJW teacher. It's in our jeans..

The original project which demonstrated how easy and effective this process can work happened in 1967 in the US. It was called The Third Wave. Worth a read.

*Background to the Third Wave experiment*
The experiment took place at Cubberley High School in Palo Alto, California, during the first week of April 1967.[1] Jones, finding himself unable to explain to his students how the German population could have claimed ignorance of The Holocaust, decided to demonstrate it to them instead.[3] Jones started a movement called "The Third Wave" and told his students that the movement aimed to eliminate democracy.[1] The idea that democracy emphasizes individuality was considered as a drawback of democracy, and Jones emphasized this main point of the movement in its motto: "Strength through discipline, strength through community, strength through action, strength through pride."[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
______________________________________________

This is the story from the teacher who ran the experiment.  Very, very sobering.  Mind you the students became outstanding learners in only a few days under this regime... Maybe it's the way to go if we are to be No 1 on the Education Table.
https://web.archive.org/web/2005022....ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html


----------



## basilio

This was The  Third Wave as a Tv movie.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I'm interested in the job figures. Is it true that unemployment among women is the lowest in 60 years?




I don't think that Trump has been in long enough to have had any effect on the economy. Economies change relatively slowly either way so if the US economy has improved then it would likely have done so over a longer period of time than his Presidency.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think that Trump has been in long enough to have had any effect on the economy. Economies change relatively slowly either way so if the US economy has improved then it would likely have done so over a longer period of time than his Presidency.



He hit the ground running. I think he got some of the bigger companies to move back to the US,  encouraged business,  investors etc. I'm interested in seeing how the tariffs play out.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> MoXjo, the process of how to socialise or groom people/students into accepting authoritarian dictates is one of the key elements of every SJW teacher. It's in our jeans..
> 
> The original project which demonstrated how easy and effective this process can work happened in 1967 in the US. It was called The Third Wave. Worth a read.
> 
> *Background to the Third Wave experiment*
> The experiment took place at Cubberley High School in Palo Alto, California, during the first week of April 1967.[1] Jones, finding himself unable to explain to his students how the German population could have claimed ignorance of The Holocaust, decided to demonstrate it to them instead.[3] Jones started a movement called "The Third Wave" and told his students that the movement aimed to eliminate democracy.[1] The idea that democracy emphasizes individuality was considered as a drawback of democracy, and Jones emphasized this main point of the movement in its motto: "Strength through discipline, strength through community, strength through action, strength through pride."[1]
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
> ______________________________________________
> 
> This is the story from the teacher who ran the experiment.  Very, very sobering.  Mind you the students became outstanding learners in only a few days under this regime... Maybe it's the way to go if we are to be No 1 on the Education Table.
> https://web.archive.org/web/2005022....ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html



Both sides have good qualities. Both sides can also be corrupted by power. 
Everyone should question everything to get to the truth. 

They also should troll just a little bit.


----------



## basilio

Moxjo,  there is nothing right about Donald Trump. He is a sociopathitic  narcissist who is destroying the social and political culture in the US and corrupting politics around the world.

And that is not just a liberal view. Many, many conservatives would echo those thoughts.

I don't know what it will take for you and many others on this forum to recognise that reality. Probably in the end absolutely nothing he does, nothing that is alleged, nothing that is proven will be sufficient to change your views.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> He hit the ground running. I think he got some of the bigger companies to move back to the US,  encouraged business,  investors etc. I'm interested in seeing how the tariffs play out.




Which companies moved back to the US?

Every admin encourage business and investors. Obama was Wall St's favourite... hence, he got the presidency. Hence, Goldman Sachs hands him a list of who they "recommend" ought to take this, that and all major position in his Cabinet. Obama get to choose who's the cleaner or something.


----------



## Tisme

Trumps is dragging Americans back from the tide of disunity into a revivilist empire and the little fiefdoms within don't like it.

The only thing that stands in the way of Russia and China style human rights is USA, India and UK pushing back. The USA business was too busy sinking monies into building China, and the US govt not regulating that investment properly so now we have a Frankenstein's monster to contend with.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Trumps is dragging Americans back from the tide of disunity into a revivilist empire




So did Hitler I guess. The Germans voted for him too.


----------



## wayneL

Oh yeah,  Trump is building gas ovens as we speak. 

Cmon Horace,  conflating Trump and Hitler is beyond the pale, quite disgraceful really.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Oh yeah,  Trump is building gas ovens as we speak.
> 
> Cmon Horace,  conflating Trump and Hitler is beyond the pale, quite disgraceful really.




Can't you take a little joke wayne ? 

I wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler's excesses just pointing out that neither have much respect for democratic institutions like independent investigators.


----------



## wayneL

Touche' lol


----------



## Junior

I find it disturbing that the President of the USA avoids reading, and gathers most of his knowledge from FOX News.  He uses Twitter as his primary communication tool.  It is embarrassing and unprofessional.

He comes across as arrogant, ignorant and a compulsive liar to me.  I held that view before he ran for president, and I haven't seen anything to change that.  He's appealing to conservatives who long for the America of 50 years ago.  Well guess what, it's 2018 and the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago on almost every measure, so let's appreciate that and move forward, not backwards.


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> I find it disturbing that the President of the USA avoids reading, and gathers most of his knowledge from FOX News.  He uses Twitter as his primary communication tool.  It is embarrassing and unprofessional.
> 
> He comes across as arrogant, ignorant and a compulsive liar to me.  I held that view before he ran for president, and I haven't seen anything to change that.  He's appealing to conservatives who long for the America of 50 years ago.  Well guess what, it's 2018 and the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago on almost every measure, so let's appreciate that and move forward, not backwards.



The world is better because we have taken the middle line.  Mixed economies,  free exchange of ideas and debate, creating equal opportunity (but not equality of outcome)  reducing egregious offense but not overly pc. 

On those measures we have now started going backwards and it will end in violence of some sort.

Trump is merely symptomatic of that,  but in my profession I have access to many of my American colleagues; politics is regularly discussed.  

I can tell you that the proportion is 20 to 1 in favour of Trump and probably 8 or 10 to 1 **strongly in favour. 

So don't believe the msm,  on the ground is a totally different story.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Trump is merely symptomatic of that, but in my profession I have access to many of my American colleagues; politics is regularly discussed.
> 
> I can tell you that the proportion is 20 to 1 in favour of Trump and probably 8 or 10 to 1 **strongly in favour.




Taking polls of like minded people is not statistically valid.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> The world is better because we have taken the middle line.  Mixed economies,  free exchange of ideas and debate, creating equal opportunity (but not equality of outcome)  reducing egregious offense but not overly pc.
> 
> On those measures we have now started going backwards and it will end in violence of some sort.
> 
> Trump is merely symptomatic of that,  but in my profession I have access to many of my American colleagues; politics is regularly discussed.
> 
> I can tell you that the proportion is 20 to 1 in favour of Trump and probably 8 or 10 to 1 **strongly in favour.
> 
> So don't believe the msm,  on the ground is a totally different story.




The voters turn out was around 50% of Americans? 
Slightly more than half voted for Clinton? The other half to Trump?

So the 20:1 is probably sampling bias Sifu.

But has your colleagues had their voters regret yet?

Not saying that Clinton is better or such... just that voters put hope and change into a candidate, believing their bs... then get shafted, again. 

I mean nobody cares for the poor and working class anyway. Just Trump really, really does not give a crap. He talks the language, but if you look at his policies... his voters are going to feel it real soon. If not already.


----------



## moXJO

He hasn't started any wars yet. If he stays on that trend he will be ahead of the pack in something.

He is a liar. But so were the majority of the president’s. Trump lies a damn lot though. I think junior hit it on the head with the fox news.

He doesn't give a crap about the poor. "Get a job" seems to be his policy attitude.


----------



## wayneL

Most certainly sampling bias, gents. You miss my point,  not that *everybody likes Trump, that is clearly not true. 

But in my profession of self employed,  self reliant people,  he is very popular. 

Therefore, the reverse is simply not true as asserted above. Not *everybody hates him either, the msm is giving a somewhat false impression.


----------



## wayneL

As far as Trump being a liar... Well of course he is.  As Mo pointed out,  all POTUSae(sic) are.

The difference is in to the extent to which the msm facilitate the lies. 

Very high with Obama. 

Not at all with Trump.


----------



## Junior

I can see that business owners might be in support, given they will be beneficiaries of tax cuts and easing of regulation.

The impact of slashing taxes and a big increase in spending will be another sugar hit for the US economy in the short term, but will sting in a few years, in terms of budget deficit and govn't debt levels.  They'll end up slashing interest rates to zero again down the track IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> As far as Trump being a liar... Well of course he is.  As Mo pointed out,  all POTUSae(sic) are.
> 
> The difference is in to the extent to which the msm facilitate the lies.
> 
> Very high with Obama.
> 
> Not at all with Trump.




Some examples of Obama lies please ?


----------



## Knobby22

Junior said:


> I can see that business owners might be in support, given they will be beneficiaries of tax cuts and easing of regulation.
> 
> The impact of slashing taxes and a big increase in spending will be another sugar hit for the US economy in the short term, but will sting in a few years, in terms of budget deficit and govn't debt levels.  They'll end up slashing interest rates to zero again down the track IMO.




That's what worries me more than anything J. the huge run up in debt and the decaying infrastructure.


----------



## Junior

1,655 lies in 500 days!  

http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:
			
		

> I wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler's excesses just pointing out that neither have much respect for democratic institutions like independent investigators.




How many politicians do? If they did there would be no need for investigators to be independent. 



wayneL said:


> Therefore, the reverse is simply not true as asserted above. Not *everybody hates him either, the msm is giving a somewhat false impression.




Who made that assertion?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Some examples of Obama lies please ?



You don't have Google? 

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/365393-how-quickly-ny-times-forgets-obamas-lies-and-frauds


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Some examples of Obama lies please ?




"Hope and Change".

But then he still leave voters hoping for a change, so maybe that's not a lie


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> I find it disturbing that the President of the USA avoids reading, and gathers most of his knowledge from FOX News.  He uses Twitter as his primary communication tool.  It is embarrassing and unprofessional.
> 
> He comes across as arrogant, ignorant and a compulsive liar to me.  I held that view before he ran for president, and I haven't seen anything to change that.  He's appealing to conservatives who long for the America of 50 years ago.  Well guess what, it's 2018 and the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago on almost every measure, so let's appreciate that and move forward, not backwards.




Which is how Australians have traditionally viewed the US and it's Presidents.


----------



## Junior

Tisme said:


> Which is how Australians have traditionally viewed the US and it's Presidents.




Most Presidents bring literacy and a bit of relevant experience to the table, at least.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Most Presidents bring literacy and a bit of relevant experience to the table, at least.




I wonder i that is true. Be interesting to see which ones were career politicians

Washington, Teddy R , Reagan etc 

Gubernatorial experience might count?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I wonder i that is true. Be interesting to see which ones were career politicians
> 
> Washington, Teddy R , Reagan etc
> 
> Gubernatorial experience might count?




Waging wars, clearing the land of read and brown people... those are relevant experiences. Washington and Teddy have them in spades.

Reagan has a different, but still relevant, experience: good salesmanship and enough acting chop to look and sound presidential.

Trump's only experience with getting rid of colored folks was kicking them out of daddy's apartments. His acting is bad, very bad. His script reading and improvisation - terrible.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Waging wars, clearing the land of read and brown people... those are relevant experiences. Washington and Teddy have them in spades.
> 
> Reagan has a different, but still relevant, experience: good salesmanship and enough acting chop to look and sound presidential.
> 
> Trump's only experience with getting rid of colored folks was kicking them out of daddy's apartments. His acting is bad, very bad. His script reading and improvisation - terrible.




He speaks to his audience. 

True he's not a calibrated man and harsh with his words, but he's up against two empire building nations that took advantage of a luck lustre leader who concentrated on domestic social injustices rather than being actively forceful on the world stage to protect the American Empire.

Whether the USA is an attractive option when comparing the alternatives of Russian, Chinese and Islamic governance is for each individual, but he has an obligation to his nation to help it survive in prosperity. Breaking some eggs and insulting stagnation may well be the resuscitation the people need to feel productive in matters other than putting comfort blankets around gays, coloureds, feminists, etc.


----------



## moXJO

I agree that Obama really dropped the ball on the world stage. He was viewed as a joke by Russian and Chinese counterparts.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> He speaks to his audience.
> 
> True he's not a calibrated man and harsh with his words, but he's up against two empire building nations that took advantage of a luck lustre leader who concentrated on domestic social injustices rather than being actively forceful on the world stage to protect the American Empire.
> 
> Whether the USA is an attractive option when comparing the alternatives of Russian, Chinese and Islamic governance is for each individual, but he has an obligation to his nation to help it survive in prosperity. Breaking some eggs and insulting stagnation may well be the resuscitation the people need to feel productive in matters other than putting comfort blankets around gays, coloureds, feminists, etc.




Prolonging global hegemony? Trump? He wished.

Credit where it's due, Obama was a much more aggressive yet far-sighted global strategist than Trump. And despite what we're told, Obama further gutted the working class (aka the middle class) than we're to believed. The average yank lived and experienced it, that's why Obama's successor didn't make it to the WH.

As to foreign policy, Obama's Team America got a few things right. Trump kinda screwed all that up and the future will either see Chinese hegemony or WWIII.

First, Obama made peace with Iran. Letting its oil flows out for more Western goods to flow in. That takes away its incentives to sell and deal with only China and Russia, particularly China and its appetite for oil.

That also kept one part of the Middle East on friendlier terms. Which is good and allow you room to liberate the other 7 countries in the region.

Trump now screwed that up. Picking fights with Russia, upsetting the Europeans whose corporations can't make money with Iran... and being forced to buy oil/gas that's from approved sources at 3x the costs! 

That and upsetting more Arabs with that Jerusalem move; going to upset a few more with the planned Golan Heights giveaway... and now letting that Yahu going around Europe talking war with Iran. As in, direct wars, with boots on the grounds and stuff. Whose boots? Not Israelis that's for sure.

So, in opening a couple of fronts in Europe and Middle East. Making life harder for the European "powers" to both keep their plebs happy with lower energy prices, costs of living... but demanding that they upped their "contribution" to military build-ups against the evil Russians... 

All that while the Pivot to Asia... I don't know, Darwin? A few CIAs scaring Duterte? Hoping the Chinese put so many buildings and hardware on those islands it'll just sink into the ocean? 

Then there's the TPP... it was supposed to permit Western corporations making crap load of profit at the expense of both its own plebs and those in China. All for one and one against the Chinese. But it's a bad deal and so Australia and NZ will have to lead the effort. 

Domestically... Jesus Christ. Giving everybody but the poor and working class more money than they know what to do with while cutting every possible dime that support education, feeding kids and seniors, sick and disabled. 

You're not supposed to take the "war on poverty" literally like that. 

But it's good that the Chinese gave Ivanka a few dozen trademark and patents though.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> Credit where it's due, Obama was a much more aggressive yet far-sighted global strategist than Trump. And despite what we're told, Obama further gutted the working class (aka the middle class) than we're to believed. The average yank lived and experienced it, that's why Obama's successor didn't make it to the WH.
> 
> As to foreign policy, Obama's Team America got a few things right. Trump kinda screwed all that up and the future will either see Chinese hegemony or WWIII.
> 
> First, Obama made peace with Iran. Letting its oil flows out for more Western goods to flow in. That takes away its incentives to sell and deal with only China and Russia, particularly China and its appetite for oil.
> 
> That also kept one part of the Middle East on friendlier terms. Which is good and allow you room to liberate the other 7 countries in the region.




Obama was asleep at the wheel. Russia waltzing into the Ukraine. China setting up shop in the south china sea. Losing important asian allies. Misreading the arab spring. You could go on and on. Putin despised Obama and thought he was weak. And Obama was. 

Thats how we ended up in the position we are in now. One thing Trump isn't viewed as and thats being soft. 
More like a spastic monkey with the runs. He ain't afraid to throw sht anywhere. 

We will see what happens with North Korea negotiations.


----------



## basilio

So how does starting a Trade war with Europe, Canada, China in fact most/rest of the world figure as a plus for Donald Trump  and the US ?

How does degrading the US relationships with Europe, Canada, Mexico, China, the Arab nations help with improving US power or standing around the world?

How will running a monumental budget deficit to finance trillion dollar tax cuts to the wealthest groups in the US  work with monetary policy ?

When will other countries start to move away from the US dollar and develop alternative major trading currencies because of US budget deficits, trade behaviour and political aggressiveness?

At what stage will many countries, allies, neutrals whatever,  decide the US under Donald Trump is not a State they want count on economically or politically ? Which other countries could end up with greater regional or world power ?


----------



## SirRumpole

> At what stage will many countries, allies, neutrals whatever, decide the US under Donald Trump is not a State they want count on economically or politically ? Which other countries could end up with greater regional or world power ?




Indeed so. Australia needs another Keating, the US needs another FDR.

Speak softly, but carry a big stick. (OK, that was Theodore Roosevelt but the idea is right.)


----------



## moXJO

There was talk under Obama that the US could no longer protect many of its allies. America is not what it once was. It also cannot afford to be ripped off by other countries through trade. 

China recently put wine tariffs on Australia to teach us a lesson. Wheres the outrage?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> ?
> 
> At what stage will many countries, allies, neutrals whatever,  decide the US under Donald Trump is not a State they want count on economically or politically ? Which other countries could end up with greater regional or world power ?



The target is China. 
The weak biatchs in the EU, Canada and uk will eventually fold in negotiations. China is in for punishment over the coming decade.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Obama was asleep at the wheel. Russia waltzing into the Ukraine. China setting up shop in the south china sea. Losing important asian allies. Misreading the arab spring. You could go on and on. Putin despised Obama and thought he was weak. And Obama was.
> 
> Thats how we ended up in the position we are in now. One thing Trump isn't viewed as and thats being soft.
> More like a spastic monkey with the runs. He ain't afraid to throw sht anywhere.
> 
> We will see what happens with North Korea negotiations.




That's not true.

Obama took two wars in the Middle East, won the Nobel Peace Prize, then quickly extend two into eight. 

The expand the experimental, only taking out Al Qaeda and major terrorists drone assassination program... add extra juice and a weekly kill-list to it. Expand its operations all over the Middle East and Africa.

That's not weak. It's something else quite illegal. Though Trump is more aggressive on that front in that he permit the droning of anyone the CIA and other warriors want. Just do it. No need to get his signature. That and since Obama took down most of the guys at the top, Trump permit the taking of pretty much anyone who look like they're in a terrorist group (and all their surroundings).


With the Ukraine... the Russians were already waltzing in it. It's their dance floor. 

Obama's CIA got the coup going, extending NATO influence into the Ukraine. Kicked out Russia's man. That's why Russia took Crimea and push their troops in. I think WWI and WWII kinda taught the Russians to not let a potential enemy parked their tanks right at the gates. And the Ukraine is on Russia's border. 

The US was supposed to be leaving the European alone. Getting them to fund more of NATO. I guess one way of doing that was to upset the Russian a bit with the Ukraine move... you know, get the Europeans on edge a bit. But seems a couple more fronts have been opened up and all the might of Europe can't risk a Russian onslaught, if, when, it comes so Uncle Sam is sticking around a bit.

So the guys in Moscow are scratching their heads. Why in the heck does the US want to push us and our oil export to China? Why are they pushing their tanks right up to our gates when leaving a couple buffer state and they'll have a friend in us. 

The comrades in Beijing are laughing their heads off. I mean, all the major powers in the world - the US - are busying themselves in Europe and the Middle East, the northern half of Africa... leaving the only other major power with global ambition free to pick off puny little ASEANs and southern Africa.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so. Australia needs another Keating, the US needs another FDR.
> 
> Speak softly, but carry a big stick. (OK, that was Theodore Roosevelt but the idea is right.)



Yeah a Keating for us,  or at least someone with his balls .

The US has exactly what it needs,  for now.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> There was talk under Obama that the US could no longer protect many of its allies. America is not what it once was. It also cannot afford to be ripped off by other countries through trade.
> 
> China recently put wine tariffs on Australia to teach us a lesson. Wheres the outrage?




Rage burn brightest when it burn within 


How are other countries ripping the US off? I'd love to be ripped off the way the US is having it.

Just send me your goods and I'll write you IOUs. Then when I have too many IOUs outstanding I'd print more greenbacks and those get halved in a real hurry. Then I write more IOUs for more real goods. 

Well, eventually people will stop ripping me off that way but so far, so good.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> That's not true.
> 
> Obama took two wars in the Middle East, won the Nobel Peace Prize, then quickly extend two into eight.
> 
> The expand the experimental, only taking out Al Qaeda and major terrorists drone assassination program... add extra juice and a weekly kill-list to it. Expand its operations all over the Middle East and Africa.
> 
> That's not weak. It's something else quite illegal. Though Trump is more aggressive on that front in that he permit the droning of anyone the CIA and other warriors want. Just do it. No need to get his signature. That and since Obama took down most of the guys at the top, Trump permit the taking of pretty much anyone who look like they're in a terrorist group (and all their surroundings).
> 
> 
> With the Ukraine... the Russians were already waltzing in it. It's their dance floor.
> 
> Obama's CIA got the coup going, extending NATO influence into the Ukraine. Kicked out Russia's man. That's why Russia took Crimea and push their troops in. I think WWI and WWII kinda taught the Russians to not let a potential enemy parked their tanks right at the gates. And the Ukraine is on Russia's border.
> 
> The US was supposed to be leaving the European alone. Getting them to fund more of NATO. I guess one way of doing that was to upset the Russian a bit with the Ukraine move... you know, get the Europeans on edge a bit. But seems a couple more fronts have been opened up and all the might of Europe can't risk a Russian onslaught, if, when, it comes so Uncle Sam is sticking around a bit.
> 
> So the guys in Moscow are scratching their heads. Why in the heck does the US want to push us and our oil export to China? Why are they pushing their tanks right up to our gates when leaving a couple buffer state and they'll have a friend in us.
> 
> The comrades in Beijing are laughing their heads off. I mean, all the major powers in the world - the US - are busying themselves in Europe and the Middle East, the northern half of Africa... leaving the only other major power with global ambition free to pick off puny little ASEANs and southern Africa.



Took troops off the ground (after advice not too) and droned the sht out of everyone. Then isis appeared on his watch after leaving the gap. 

Obama was weak. Told the people one thing, while he ran black ops in the background. And it all went south.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Rage burn brightest when it burn within
> 
> 
> How are other countries ripping the US off? I'd love to be ripped off the way the US is having it.
> 
> Just send me your goods and I'll write you IOUs. Then when I have too many IOUs outstanding I'd print more greenbacks and those get halved in a real hurry. Then I write more IOUs for more real goods.
> 
> Well, eventually people will stop ripping me off that way but so far, so good.



Why is everyone complaining then?  US is a gluten for goods, the rest of the world knows it. 

I'm not for tariffs, but guaranteed a lot of these countries will roll over to Trumps demands after a bit of pain. I can't see many other reasons why he would do it. 

China is, and has been stealing US tech for years. If I start a company in China then the government gets to grab any tech. They also hacked the majority of US tech through the PLA and were busted.
Get ready for payback if the don't start easing back.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Took troops off the ground (after advice not too) and droned the sht out of everyone. Then isis appeared on his watch after leaving the gap.
> 
> Obama was weak. Told the people one thing, while he ran black ops in the background. And it all went south.




Troops "withdrawal" serve a few purpose.

One, it give the press and the plebs the impression that he's a man of his word - when he says he'll end the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, he meant to move the troops to Asia readying for another few more.

Two, you don't need that many troops there if your new game plan is to simply secure the real reason you're there in the first place. No, not freedom. Oil.

So they set up green zones, have trained locals (the good ones) working under supervision to guard those valuable assets. Outside of those perimeters it's every Arab for themselves.

So it was a "good" move. Who would have thought the locals would get really mad when you put them among terrorists and drone them all now and then?

Obama is not weak. But he is cowardly. 

He had his FDR moment. He had the background experience, firsthand experience of poverty and everyday struggles most American goes through. He had a perfect set of circumstances - the GFC - to reign in corrupt corporate and banking practices.

His administration literally own, socialised, most of all the major US banks, mortgage lenders, GMs etc. 

He had the American people behind him; his admin owns those corrupt banks; he had their CEOs by the nutsack. He could forced change, reduce their size and influence, put into law safe guards for workers.

Instead, he use taxpayers money to save the bankers and literally let some 10 million families go homeless. WTF. 

Anyway, he screwed the plebs so hard they either turned off voting or reluctantly vote against Trump... or voted for an idiot like Trump because there's hope that he won't be another smooth talking prick.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Why is everyone complaining then?  US is a gluten for goods, the rest of the world knows it.
> 
> I'm not for tariffs, but guaranteed a lot of these countries will roll over to Trumps demands after a bit of pain. I can't see many other reasons why he would do it.
> 
> China is, and has been stealing US tech for years. If I start a company in China then the government gets to grab any tech. They also hacked the majority of US tech through the PLA and were busted.
> Get ready for payback if the don't start easing back.




I'm no economist, obviously, but if every country put on tariffs... doesn't that just mean things get more expensive somewhat equally BUT... but with only one group of people paying the price? Consumers?

I mean, it's like a perfect crime. Trump get to look good for the coming election - job, good jobs, protector; tremendous deal maker etc. because he raise taxes to "protect American jobs".

Then the other guys either ask for exemptions on favoured corporations, or/and they also raise taxes too. 

If the company is big enough, they'll just pass on the tax increase, plus some. Those smaller operations will get swallowed up... the end consumers will either go without or cough up more money... 

So corporations get to make the same, or more, money. Politicians gets to look strong and protective. The plebs get to pay a higher price. Bloody hell, that's quite brilliant.

I mean, trade wars and protective tariffs are only effective (at protecting jobs, nurse local industries) if the other side can't fight back by doing the same thing. When both sides could fight equally... the only winners are the arms dealers.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Troops "withdrawal" serve a few purpose.
> 
> One, it give the press and the plebs the impression that he's a man of his word - when he says he'll end the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, he meant to move the troops to Asia readying for another few more.
> 
> Two, you don't need that many troops there if your new game plan is to simply secure the real reason you're there in the first place. No, not freedom. Oil.
> 
> So they set up green zones, have trained locals (the good ones) working under supervision to guard those valuable assets. Outside of those perimeters it's every Arab for themselves.
> 
> So it was a "good" move. Who would have thought the locals would get really mad when you put them among terrorists and drone them all now and then?
> 
> Obama is not weak. But he is cowardly.
> 
> He had his FDR moment. He had the background experience, firsthand experience of poverty and everyday struggles most American goes through. He had a perfect set of circumstances - the GFC - to reign in corrupt corporate and banking practices.
> 
> His administration literally own, socialised, most of all the major US banks, mortgage lenders, GMs etc.
> 
> He had the American people behind him; his admin owns those corrupt banks; he had their CEOs by the nutsack. He could forced change, reduce their size and influence, put into law safe guards for workers.
> 
> Instead, he use taxpayers money to save the bankers and literally let some 10 million families go homeless. WTF.
> 
> Anyway, he screwed the plebs so hard they either turned off voting or reluctantly vote against Trump... or voted for an idiot like Trump because there's hope that he won't be another smooth talking prick.



He was weak.
Lets start with Iran
First off he put Israel and Saudi Arabia offside to negotiate a deal that didn't cover missiles, was rubbery as all hell and lapsed in 10 years. Well done.
Then when US Navy men were captured,  he sends Kerry over to put lips to ass and thank Iran for their release. Iran in the meanwhile still exports terror and their navy harasses anyone in the gulf.

What about his tough talk on Assad in Syria. Nothing done. Even when the supposed chemical attacks happened with Obama's "line in the sand" and nothing.

Or how about when China steals a US navy submarine drone out of international waters. Yep nothing.

He was viewed as weak by the Russians, the Chinese and Arabs. Talk about burning allies,  Obama burnt Israel and Saudi Arabia. All trump is doing is rebuilding a lot of those relationships that are important. And throwing the rest to the wolves.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> I'm no economist, obviously, but if every country put on tariffs... doesn't that just mean things get more expensive somewhat equally BUT... but with only one group of people paying the price? Consumers?
> 
> I mean, it's like a perfect crime. Trump get to look good for the coming election - job, good jobs, protector; tremendous deal maker etc. because he raise taxes to "protect American jobs".
> 
> Then the other guys either ask for exemptions on favoured corporations, or/and they also raise taxes too.
> 
> If the company is big enough, they'll just pass on the tax increase, plus some. Those smaller operations will get swallowed up... the end consumers will either go without or cough up more money...
> 
> So corporations get to make the same, or more, money. Politicians gets to look strong and protective. The plebs get to pay a higher price. Bloody hell, that's quite brilliant.
> 
> I mean, trade wars and protective tariffs are only effective (at protecting jobs, nurse local industries) if the other side can't fight back by doing the same thing. When both sides could fight equally... the only winners are the arms dealers.



No one wants a trade war. It looks like US is just showing its "swinging dick" status. I'm hoping its just negotiation tactics. Ask Kim how much ass he has to kiss to keep the meeting with trump on track. 

Unite them in fear, then punish the upstart is my guess.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> He was weak.
> Lets start with Iran
> First off he put Israel and Saudi Arabia offside to negotiate a deal that didn't cover missiles, was rubbery as all hell and lapsed in 10 years. Well done.
> Then when US Navy men were captured,  he sends Kerry over to put lips to ass and thank Iran for their release. Iran in the meanwhile still exports terror and their navy harasses anyone in the gulf.
> 
> What about his tough talk on Assad in Syria. Nothing done. Even when the supposed chemical attacks happened with Obama's "line in the sand" and nothing.
> 
> Or how about when China steals a US navy submarine drone out of international waters. Yep nothing.
> 
> He was viewed as weak by the Russians, the Chinese and Arabs. Talk about burning allies,  Obama burnt Israel and Saudi Arabia. All trump is doing is rebuilding a lot of those relationships that are important. And throwing the rest to the wolves.




Israel and Saudi Arabia aren't allies, they're vassal states. Colony. Imperial Outpost. 

France, Germany, the UK are "partners". So they're above the other two and are more serious in that they have a few really impressive industrial base. Israel and Saudi... they're somehow useful, but are interchangeable.

From memory, the US navy went inside Iranian waters yes? Under international law, a foreign military cannot cross into another sovereign state's economic zone without permission. 

So it's not something you'd want to go to war over. Especially when they treat the soldiers well enough and release them soon after. 

Iran is not a threat. Not to Israel. Definitely not to the US. 

US Intelligence report have long admitted to that. That Iran's arms are primarily defensive, not offensive. i.e. they're powerful enough to deter and halt a potential enemy, but not enough that they can take on a modern military and win.

That's what a few decades of sanctions does to a country. It starves and kill the young, old and sick. Kept the tech and hardware dated. That's why now and then you see one of their planes fell out of the sky... kinda like Cuba's recently. 

So Obama was right to agree to that Iranian deal. It's not just with the US, but with Europe, Russia and China too. 

Trump managed to upset all those countries, a few of them friends... in favour of two states who've been itching for a war with Iran since ever. 

Even Bush Jr. knew better to not go to Tehran. 

But anyway, I heard that even if the deal had stayed in place, Iran would still have plenty of other sanction on it. 

-----

China, Russia hacks... every country hacks and spy on another. Just because the other side don't advertise the fact that they've been hacked doesn't mean they weren't. I mean, even Merkle got tapped by the US, and Israeli.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> No one wants a trade war. It looks like US is just showing its "swinging dick" status. I'm hoping its just negotiation tactics. Ask Kim how much ass he has to kiss to keep the meeting with trump on track.
> 
> Unite them in fear, then punish the upstart is my guess.




Kim was the ones to have second thought on the summit. Remember how he got cold feet on hearing the US and S/Korea are still going to have their war game where the finale ends with his decapitation? 

S/Korea tries to assure Kim, did a fair chunk of work to smooth things over. The US/Trump got back on board after Kim kinda, and here I'm guessing, fired his top three military advisors. 

It would look really bad, no Nobel Peace Prize bad, if Kim made the initial overture for peace talks; release US prisoners; destroy his useless nuke testing facility to show he's serious about peace... just to have the US/SKorea scared him off with war games and Bolton's "Libya Model", followed by Trump's threat of a real Libya model if Kim don't want peace. 

The Chinese president and Russian Foreign Minister had met with Kim. I guess they assure him that if the US decided to do an Iraq, a Libya or a Syria on him, they'll join the party too.

---------

Why would the US want Europe to fear them? They're already under its thumb. 
N/Korea of course already fear anyone but their own people.

The US had "lost" China twice in the last 100 years. If they don't smarten up they'll lose a third and final time in coming decades.

The first "lost" was 1949 when Chiang Kai Sek lost to Mao and set up camp in Taiwan.

The second lost is the recent offshoring of US manufacturing to China, permitting US corporations to invest heavily into China and instead of then capturing the comrades, flipping them to the good side... the comrades capture American corporations and their political influence. 

China is now, literally, building roads and bridges to link the world's resources and trade. Raw material flows to China, Chinese made goods flow out everywhere.

So if you can't contain an upstart... and can't nuke the bastard... and can't really convince its potential enemies to do something. Game's pretty much over.


----------



## basilio

You analysis of US politics and world politics is compelling Luutzu. ..


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> From memory, the US navy went inside Iranian waters yes? Under international law, a foreign military cannot cross into another sovereign state's economic zone without permission.
> 
> So it's not something you'd want to go to war over. Especially when they treat the soldiers well enough and release them soon after.
> 
> Iran is not a threat. Not to Israel. Definitely not to the US.





> *Iran's navy made a point of harassing and humiliating the US Navy in 2016 after then-President Barack Obama had sealed the Iran deal, but under President Donald Trump, they have stopped.*
> *The US Navy openly acknowledges the shift in tactics from Iran, which an expert told Business Insider was based on Trump's unpredictability and credibility with regard to military strikes.*
> *But Iran has kept up its anti-US regional activity and encountered little resistance after toning down the more visible naval encounters.*
> Iran's navy made a point of harassing and humiliating the US Navy in 2016 after then-President Barack Obama had sealed the Iran deal, but since August 2017, the US Navy says things have changed.
> 
> "It seems like they've absolutely made a conscious decision to give us more space," Navy Cmdr. William Urban recently said. "That is definitely a change in their behavior."
> 
> Iran would charge US Navy ships with fast attack craft, buzz fighter jets with drones, and even shine lasers at helicopters operating at sea during Obama's presidency.
> 
> But the worst, most embarrassing incident occurred in January 2016, when Iran's navy seized two US Navy rivernine boats and the 10 sailors on board after the ship wandered into Iranian waters due to mechanical issues. They broadcast footage of the sailors, crying, in detention, on television across the country. Iran later announced plans to build a monument commemorating the event.
> 
> Later that year Iranian ships conducted "unsafe and unprofessional," and often taunting maneuvers around US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf five times in about a month.






Then trump



> In September of that same year, Trump addressed Iran while on the campaign trail. "When they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn't be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water," Trump said.
> 
> Shortly after Trump's election, the incidents noticeably stopped, despite Trump's open hostility towards Iran, compared to Obama's attempts to appease them.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ated-us-navy-obama-stopped-under-trump-2018-3

Fact is Obama was viewed as weak. Go to Russia, or the middle east and they all thought he was nutless. He was intelligent and a great speaker. But no stones.

Iran is a power threat in the middle east. They also fund terrorist outfits. 

 If you think Israel or Saudis have no power then you ain't looking properly


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> You analysis of US politics and world politics is compelling Luutzu. ..



Yeah and wrong with a lot of it.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> So if you can't contain an upstart... and can't nuke the bastard... and can't really convince its potential enemies to do something. Game's pretty much over.



Ahhh nooo.
South Korea, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia are all part of the US design to contain China. Pretty much choking them off and slowing their naval ambitions.

India is a power on the rise as well and they ain't bum buddies with china. If it weren't for those mountains, there would be a stack load of conflict.

US has way more soft power leverage with the world then China will ever have. China may move ahead in some areas but I don't see them taking the world mantle.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Kim was the ones to have second thought on the summit. Remember how he got cold feet on hearing the US and S/Korea are still going to have their war game where the finale ends with his decapitation?
> 
> S/Korea tries to assure Kim, did a fair chunk of work to smooth things over. The US/Trump got back on board after Kim kinda, and here I'm guessing, fired his top three military advisors.



Kim didn't walk away. 
The NK population has acess to the Internet, illegally and on pain of death- thank you technology. No hiding the rest of the world for kimmy boy. If he doesn't get the sanctions lifted he is literally toast. He needs the sanctions lifted. Maybe he will try to go back to his old ways, but I think technology has come too far. 

Trump has nothing to lose by walking away. He was dealing with someone that routinely antagonized the world.
 Trump has also has been building leverage on China. And hey those sanctions could get a whole lot easier if you tell your pet to do back flips at the summit.

Whats his catchphrase MAGA.
I think that sums up his approach on the world stage. Pants down- swinging dick.
After throwing missiles into Syria and wiping out a hundred or so Russian mercs in another attack, all the little shitbowls are thinking twice.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Kim didn't walk away.
> The NK population has acess to the Internet, illegally and on pain of death- thank you technology. No hiding the rest of the world for kimmy boy. If he doesn't get the sanctions lifted he is literally toast. He needs the sanctions lifted. Maybe he will try to go back to his old ways, but I think technology has come too far.
> 
> Trump has nothing to lose by walking away. He was dealing with someone that routinely antagonized the world.
> Trump has also has been building leverage on China. And hey those sanctions could get a whole lot easier if you tell your pet to do back flips at the summit.
> 
> Whats his catchphrase MAGA.
> I think that sums up his approach on the world stage. Pants down- swinging dick.
> After throwing missiles into Syria and wiping out a hundred or so Russian mercs in another attack, all the little shitbowls are thinking twice.




You realise that it has never been the North Korean who wanted sanctions on them right?

The Kim Dynasty, like all other dictators, want the freedom to both oppress their people _and _access to new toys and worldly extravagances too. Kinda like the Saudis... lopping heads off at home, the Crown Prince get to meet with cool people around the world. Like Google founders, Bloomberg, former US presidents, The Queen!

Not sure if it's the same missiles, but the UN, that bloody UN and their Human Rights stuff... just release a report saying US attack on some Syrian city (Raqqa?) is a war crime. Not happy, other nations. 

Trump has a lot to lose if he walked away. That Nobel Peace Prize for one. Two, the Koreas wanted peace and be united... and both its presidents are making public gestures wanting peace. So they play the public image games a lot better than Trump. And we can't have that.

But the summit wouldn't mount to much I reckon. You can't have wars only with the Arabs... you need another threat from another race to even things out. And Canada being a national security threat wouldn't do it.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Ahhh nooo.
> South Korea, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia are all part of the US design to contain China. Pretty much choking them off and slowing their naval ambitions.
> 
> India is a power on the rise as well and they ain't bum buddies with china. If it weren't for those mountains, there would be a stack load of conflict.
> 
> US has way more soft power leverage with the world then China will ever have. China may move ahead in some areas but I don't see them taking the world mantle.




Have you seen pictures of what the Chinese put on those man-made, permanently anchored floating carriers of theirs lately? 

There's an elevation shot of one of the major island with its buildings an I swear it looks like the city is sinking. So I reckon the A Team in charge of containing China on that front is falling short.

No one but the US is that angry at China's rise and military build-up. I mean, sure they don't like it... what with stealing their seas and muscling in on their trades. 

But as we and our ACCC knows, you'd rather have two monopolies than one. They'll both screw you, just less than they would if there's only one of them around.

US's soft power is also waning. You need lots of money for that kind of play. And seeing how the hard power are on show all over the place, seems the current batch of US planners don't much care for the softer kind... I mean, "giving" money away... why'd you do that when you can bomb them into submission. 

That and the US just have way too much overheads and capital expenses to compete with China on that softpower game. For one, the US spend some $100B a year just to keep the lights on at its 1000+ military bases around the world. 

China could spend half that and buy themselves quite a few friends. Then on their way to global hegemony, they're only showing their aggression in a couple of places (to start off) while simply building roads and rails, creating jobs and giving money away in other parts of the world. 

That's called winning friends from afar while you screw the weaker ones nearby, taking their stuff and pushing your defensive perimeter out and away from the capital.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Then trump
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ated-us-navy-obama-stopped-under-trump-2018-3
> 
> Fact is Obama was viewed as weak. Go to Russia, or the middle east and they all thought he was nutless. He was intelligent and a great speaker. But no stones.
> 
> Iran is a power threat in the middle east. They also fund terrorist outfits.
> 
> If you think Israel or Saudis have no power then you ain't looking properly




Israel and Saudis have power and can fight a war proper if it's against unarmed women, rock slinging kids... basically anyone's that unarmed are pretty much of no match for them. 

Norman Finkelstein was saying how during the NATO/Russian fight in Georgia some years back... Israel was bidding for contracts to fight the Russian backed terrorist, I guess you called them.

Their sales pitch was that they've had plenty of experience with terrorists and have been tired of winning all these decades. So they won the job... and soon have their azzes handed to them by the Russians. 

Who's prepared for a war where the other side can shoot back properly man. 

Iran is the only, maybe except Turkey who seem to be wanting a bit more independence to deal with other powers, take a few parts back from Iraq and Syria, re-uniting them with a new Ottoman empire I'm guessing... 

Anyway, Iran is independent in a region of the world where no state should be. You just cannot have all that oil and be free to decide what to do with it on your own dude. What if you waste it and that waste ruin the environment.

So Trump says... their tiny boats circles around our big beautiful destroyers.

In the Persian Gulf or Gulf of Mexico? They were in their Iranian waters and can see a foreign destroyer? 

That shouldn't make them a bit nervous I guess. It's not like they're wedged between two fallen states, one of them on the same Axis of Evil list.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Yeah and wrong with a lot of it.




I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo.  So really  xxxx off.

But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit.  It doesn't  look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
Happy now ?

And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo.  So really  xxxx off.
> 
> But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit.  It doesn't  look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
> Happy now ?
> 
> And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.



Hey,  bas.  It's an open forum mate,  if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else,  try the private message function.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Hey,  bas.  It's an open forum mate,  if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else,  try the private message function.




From a totally unbiased position I think Mo deserved it


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Hey,  bas.  It's an open forum mate,  if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else,  try the private message function.




So  Wayne lets tease this out. If MoxJo decides to "trash" my favourable comments about Luutzu analysis of international affairs that's fine.

But when I respond in kind and point out how limited and biased Moxjo's responses are I appear to have gone too far. Apparently I should have kept my favourable comments in private rather than putting them out there.
*Double standards here ? * *Why am I totally unsurprised..*

Much of what Luu says, particularly about the Obama administration,  I find challenging and painful. If one was brutal you could say that President Obama was the best conservative President a Republican Party could hope for. But Luus analysis is well based and the difference between the public face of the President and the policy actions he undertook are stark. It has certainly made me review my ideas.

But overall I am so depresssed with the  general shallowness, nastiness and lack of grace with political/social discussions on ASF being able to recognise the gold amongst the dross is just a gesture of good faith.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo.  So really  xxxx off.
> 
> But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit.  It doesn't  look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
> Happy now ?
> 
> And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.



I actually backed up my statements. Anything else? Did I touch a raw nerve on a leftie hero? 

Obama domestically tried to go the right way but was hamstrung. Foreign policy was a failure.


----------



## Tisme

wayneL said:


> Hey,  bas.  It's an open forum mate,  if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else,  try the private message function.




lol


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Have you seen pictures of what the Chinese put on those man-made, permanently anchored floating carriers of theirs lately?
> 
> There's an elevation shot of one of the major island with its buildings an I swear it looks like the city is sinking. So I reckon the A Team in charge of containing China on that front is falling short.
> 
> No one but the US is that angry at China's rise and military build-up. I mean, sure they don't like it... what with stealing their seas and muscling in on their trades.
> 
> But as we and our ACCC knows, you'd rather have two monopolies than one. They'll both screw you, just less than they would if there's only one of them around.
> 
> US's soft power is also waning. You need lots of money for that kind of play. And seeing how the hard power are on show all over the place, seems the current batch of US planners don't much care for the softer kind... I mean, "giving" money away... why'd you do that when you can bomb them into submission.
> 
> That and the US just have way too much overheads and capital expenses to compete with China on that softpower game. For one, the US spend some $100B a year just to keep the lights on at its 1000+ military bases around the world.
> 
> China could spend half that and buy themselves quite a few friends. Then on their way to global hegemony, they're only showing their aggression in a couple of places (to start off) while simply building roads and rails, creating jobs and giving money away in other parts of the world.
> 
> That's called winning friends from afar while you screw the weaker ones nearby, taking their stuff and pushing your defensive perimeter out and away from the capital.








China looks boxed into me. Even Vietnam was pissed that china is arming the islands.

Wasn't the US navy visiting Vietnam recently as well. China isn't gaining much ground on soft power. Its trying by giving out huge loans for infrastructure,  from  micro nations to majors. It's not working to the degree that they thought.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> From a totally unbiased position I think Mo deserved it



Duddddeee....... you use to be coool.

Lutz is a big boy and he knows I'm an ass. No matter how heated everyone perceives the conversation to get,  I can think his opinion is wrong and say its wrong. He can respectively do the same. 
I'm going to learn some from him and he from me. It's not pick factional sides and only agree with our team.
Its also not personal. I like lutz and the way he thinks.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo.  So really  xxxx off.
> 
> But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit.  It doesn't  look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
> Happy now ?
> 
> .



Which comments specifically are wrong? 
The argument was that Obama was viewed as weak. Then it morphed into a lot of other things. So point them out rather than just xxxx off comments.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Israel and Saudis have power and can fight a war proper if it's against unarmed women, rock slinging kids... basically anyone's that unarmed are pretty much of no match for them.
> 
> Norman Finkelstein was saying how during the NATO/Russian fight in Georgia some years back... Israel was bidding for contracts to fight the Russian backed terrorist, I guess you called them.
> 
> Their sales pitch was that they've had plenty of experience with terrorists and have been tired of winning all these decades. So they won the job... and soon have their azzes handed to them by the Russians.
> 
> Who's prepared for a war where the other side can shoot back properly man.
> 
> Iran is the only, maybe except Turkey who seem to be wanting a bit more independence to deal with other powers, take a few parts back from Iraq and Syria, re-uniting them with a new Ottoman empire I'm guessing...
> 
> Anyway, Iran is independent in a region of the world where no state should be. You just cannot have all that oil and be free to decide what to do with it on your own dude. What if you waste it and that waste ruin the environment.
> 
> So Trump says... their tiny boats circles around our big beautiful destroyers.
> 
> In the Persian Gulf or Gulf of Mexico? They were in their Iranian waters and can see a foreign destroyer?
> 
> That shouldn't make them a bit nervous I guess. It's not like they're wedged between two fallen states, one of them on the same Axis of Evil list.



Israel is ranked 16 out of 136 armed countries. Stat breakdown is here. Their army isn't ragtag. They have some of the best trained soldiers in the world, airforce and navy.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Duddddeee....... you use to be coool.
> 
> Lutz is a big boy and he knows I'm an ass. No matter how heated everyone perceives the conversation to get,  I can think his opinion is wrong and say its wrong. He can respectively do the same.
> I'm going to learn some from him and he from me. It's not pick factional sides and only agree with our team.
> Its also not personal. I like lutz and the way he thinks.




Mo all good, my family don't think much of my humor either


----------



## Macquack

luutzu said:


> Israel and Saudis have power and can fight a war proper if it's against unarmed women, rock slinging kids... basically anyone's that unarmed are pretty much of no match for them.



Like your style Luutzu. Had to have a good laugh at that comment even though it is actually true.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Duddddeee....... you use to be coool.
> 
> Lutz is a big boy and he knows I'm an ass. No matter how heated everyone perceives the conversation to get,  I can think his opinion is wrong and say its wrong. He can respectively do the same.
> I'm going to learn some from him and he from me. It's not pick factional sides and only agree with our team.
> Its also not personal. I like lutz and the way he thinks.




Great.  Delighted to hear you are such respectful debaters.

Which makes me even more surprised /disappointed when you chose to denigrate my acknowledgement by saying he was wrong with a lot of it.

What is too difficult about saying you disagree with his analysis.?

As to my comments on why I am not so wrapt  in your international analysis.
1)


moXJO said:


> US has way more soft power leverage with the world then China will ever have. China may move ahead in some areas but I don't see them taking the world mantle.




This statement is just so dated. If you want to that the US has historically had respect, economic influence, diplomatic influence, sway in international forums I'd agree.  And in that context  China had limited influence.
But in 2018 ? Trump has trashed the US brand through the EU, the Americas, Canada, the Middle East and really everywhere except  Russsia, Poland, Hungary, Russia and maybe some other emerging right wing regimes. China on  the other  hand has unrolled its belt and braces development juggernaut around the world. In terms of soft power I suggest China has more influence than many recognise

2)


moXJO said:


> I agree that Obama really dropped the ball on the world stage. He was viewed as a joke by Russian and Chinese counterparts.



I wouldn't waste my time trying to improve on Luutzu methodical assessment of President Obamas international strategy and successes - which Trump is currently trashing.  Read em again.


luutzu said:


> As to foreign policy, Obama's Team America got a few things right. Trump kinda screwed all that up and the future will either see Chinese hegemony or WWIII.
> 
> First, Obama made peace with Iran. Letting its oil flows out for more Western goods to flow in. That takes away its incentives to sell and deal with only China and Russia, particularly China and its appetite for oil.
> 
> That also kept one part of the Middle East on friendlier terms. Which is good and allow you room to liberate the other 7 countries in the region.
> 
> Trump now screwed that up. Picking fights with Russia, upsetting the Europeans whose corporations can't make money with Iran... and being forced to buy oil/gas that's from approved sources at 3x the costs!
> 
> That and upsetting more Arabs with that Jerusalem move; going to upset a few more with the planned Golan Heights giveaway... and now letting that Yahu going around Europe talking war with Iran. As in, direct wars, with boots on the grounds and stuff. Whose boots? Not Israelis that's for sure.
> 
> So, in opening a couple of fronts in Europe and Middle East. Making life harder for the European "powers" to both keep their plebs happy with lower energy prices, costs of living... but demanding that they upped their "contribution" to military build-ups against the evil Russians...
> 
> All that while the Pivot to Asia... I don't know, Darwin? A few CIAs scaring Duterte? Hoping the Chinese put so many buildings and hardware on those islands it'll just sink into the ocean?
> 
> Then there's the TPP... it was supposed to permit Western corporations making crap load of profit at the expense of both its own plebs and those in China. All for one and one against the Chinese. But it's a bad deal and so Australia and NZ will have to lead the effort.
> 
> Domestically... Jesus Christ. Giving everybody but the poor and working class more money than they know what to do with while cutting every possible dime that support education, feeding kids and seniors, sick and disabled.
> 
> You're not supposed to take the "war on poverty" literally like that.




MoXjo you seem to have  strong militaristic streak in your arguments. Basically you suggest the US  should bash or bully the world into submission. Even when a country is trying to get their own way generally more subtle and thoughtful strategies are effective. The overt bash and bully approach loses friends and  seriously risks uncontrollable outcomes - trade wars, hot wars,  finance wars.  The stakes are so high.....

This wasn't President Obamas approach.  It is Donald Trumps.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Israel and Saudis....




I hope you don't mind me redacting all the bits that are subjective, but as you can see luu, it's much neater.

Here's something that is objective:

"During the eight years between Iraq’s formal declaration of war on September 22, 1980, and Iran’s acceptance of a cease-fire with effect on July 20, 1988, *at the very least half a million and possibly twice as many troops were killed on both sides, at least half a million became permanent invalids*, some 228 billion dollars were directly expended, and more than 400 billion dollars of damage (mostly to oil facilities, but also to cities) was inflicted, mostly by artillery barrages."


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Israel is ranked 16 out of 136 armed countries. Stat breakdown is here. Their army isn't ragtag. They have some of the best trained soldiers in the world, airforce and navy.




As Bruce Lee said to O'Hara, boards don't hit back. 

I didn't say Israel's military doesn't have the hardware... was saying that hardware doesn't do you any good if you don't know how to use it against another properly armed military with equally equipped and trained command structure.

So they can very easily bomb the heck out of Gaza and Hamas, brutalise unarmed Palestinians. But when they face another organised military force, they tend to get their azzes handed to them.

There's that 1967 6-Day war where they thought the Arabs were walkovers so decided to take God's promise into their own hands. What happened?

There's that team up with France to take the Suez Canal "back" for France against the Egyptian... 1950s? Yea alright, Uncle Sam told them to back off or else! So it weren't all the Egyptian's effort that stopped them.

Israel has the nukes and Uncle Sam. So it won't be pushed into the seas as its warrior kings like to claim. Unless the enemy wants the entire middle east being nuked too. 

But on conventional warfare against a sovereign power, Israel hasn't really had much victory beside terrorists with homemade explosives and unarmed protesters. 

That's why it's been pushing the US to go to war with Iran. But then I supposed it's always better to have other people fight and die for you cause so if Uncle Sam's admin doesn't mind it...


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> View attachment 87756
> 
> 
> China looks boxed into me. Even Vietnam was pissed that china is arming the islands.
> 
> Wasn't the US navy visiting Vietnam recently as well. China isn't gaining much ground on soft power. Its trying by giving out huge loans for infrastructure,  from  micro nations to majors. It's not working to the degree that they thought.




China have been chained in since 1949. Through a series of what US planners called "island chains". 

It's only the past, maybe, decade that China saw its opportunity to break those chains. Opportunity came because, among its rising economic power... the US is a bit busy in the M.E., Europe. It's been doing small ops in Africa; getting back into its old neighbourhood of S/America. 

Theoretically, geographically... China should have a very hard time protecting itself, let alone projecting its power abroad. What with a while bunch of countries surrounding it.

Continental US has what, Canada, Mexico... maybe Cuba as enemies? 

With its global footprint, the US is overstretched whereas China could focus its aggression locally, take those easy wins with hardly a shot fired.

Then further abroad, they lend money, make trade, sell goods on credit... then whenever they feel like it, they'll upped their terms, call their loans in. Can't repay? Sell your assets. Don't want to? We'll do this and do that to protect a legitimate financial claim.

That's nothing new though. Just copying what the IMF such is doing to, among other countries, Greece. 

---------

Yes, VN lets the US visit. They also let the Russian visited too. That's just being polite and keeping your options open. 

But sooner or later smaller countries like VN will have to pick a side. If they don't, there'll be another "civil war".


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> Like your style Luutzu. Had to have a good laugh at that comment even though it is actually true.




Thanks Macquack and Basilio. I'm more used to insults than compliments so not sure what to say


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I hope you don't mind me redacting all the bits that are subjective, but as you can see luu, it's much neater.
> 
> Here's something that is objective:
> 
> "During the eight years between Iraq’s formal declaration of war on September 22, 1980, and Iran’s acceptance of a cease-fire with effect on July 20, 1988, *at the very least half a million and possibly twice as many troops were killed on both sides, at least half a million became permanent invalids*, some 228 billion dollars were directly expended, and more than 400 billion dollars of damage (mostly to oil facilities, but also to cities) was inflicted, mostly by artillery barrages."




That's not really objective though. 

It left out the bits where another indispensable foreign power was doing the supply runs. Ahem. 

Chomsky was saying how if you look at the charges laid out against Saddam by the US (aka "International communities")... Saddam crime spree seem to only began when the US and its allies stopped talking to him. 

You know, Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hands in Baghdad and stuff like that.


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> Like your style Luutzu. Had to have a good laugh at that comment even though it is actually true.




I guess they accidentally follow the Art of War? Picking off easy, defenceless soft targets is how you win every battle. 

Yea, not funny though is it. Kinda funny in a wrong sort of way 

-----

I'm not sure how those kind of scare tactics affect the average Israeli's psyche. 

The Saudis... they're just happy they've finally get a chance to use all those tens of billions of US hardware they've bought but don't know how to use until recently. It's Yemen, the poorest country in the region but I guess you got to start small. 

With the Israeli... for the guys at the planning sessions, they're alright with playing the victim, self-defend card. But for those who didn't get clearance for the memo, it can't be good to live under constant "threat" of being pushed into the seas; those history lessons about the Holocaust and a long history of victim-hood.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Great.  Delighted to hear you are such respectful debaters.
> 
> Which makes me even more surprised /disappointed when you chose to denigrate my acknowledgement by saying he was wrong with a lot of it.
> 
> What is too difficult about saying you disagree with his analysis.?
> 
> As to my comments on why I am not so wrapt  in your international analysis.
> 1)
> 
> 
> This statement is just so dated. If you want to that the US has historically had respect, economic influence, diplomatic influence, sway in international forums I'd agree.  And in that context  China had limited influence.
> But in 2018 ? Trump has trashed the US brand through the EU, the Americas, Canada, the Middle East and really everywhere except  Russsia, Poland, Hungary, Russia and maybe some other emerging right wing regimes. China on  the other  hand has unrolled its belt and braces development juggernaut around the world. In terms of soft power I suggest China has more influence than many recognise
> 
> 2)
> 
> I wouldn't waste my time trying to improve on Luutzu methodical assessment of President Obamas international strategy and successes - which Trump is currently trashing.  Read em again.
> 
> 
> MoXjo you seem to have  strong militaristic streak in your arguments. Basically you suggest the US  should bash or bully the world into submission. Even when one is trying to getting your own way generally more subtle and thoughtful strategies are effective. The overt bash and bully approach loses friends and  seriously risks uncontrollable outcomes - trade wars, hot wars,  finance wars.  The stakes are so high.....
> 
> This wasn't President Obamas approach.  It is Donald Trumps.



I'll  expand later in more detail.
I'll throw this out to keep the discussion going.

1 where do you think china has more influence. 
Is Trump liked in asia?
Hey lutz guess who loves him most.
Under Obama the middle east were all talking to Russia.

2. Sometimes he gets it other times he doesn't.  
Obama was viewed as weak by many. Lutz is playing right around the issue and changes the original question over and over to fit the mold. 
Was Obama viewed as weak on action - yes. Weak at diplomacy - no.

3. Obama wasn't exactly the change he promised. He did do well with negotiations,  but even then they didn't amount to a lot. 
Trump might be a one trick pony. All stick. We have to wait and see. He needs an Asia strategy or at least keep them engaged. He may very well end up doing a lot worse. But he has the fear of other countries if they push too hard. To early to tell but he better get a move on.


----------



## moXJO

]


luutzu said:


> As Bruce Lee said to O'Hara, boards don't hit back.
> 
> I didn't say Israel's military doesn't have the hardware... was saying that hardware doesn't do you any good if you don't know how to use it against another properly armed military with equally equipped and trained command structure.
> 
> So they can very easily bomb the heck out of Gaza and Hamas, brutalise unarmed Palestinians. But when they face another organised military force, they tend to get their azzes handed to them.
> 
> There's that 1967 6-Day war where they thought the Arabs were walkovers so decided to take God's promise into their own hands. What happened?
> 
> There's that team up with France to take the Suez Canal "back" for France against the Egyptian... 1950s? Yea alright, Uncle Sam told them to back off or else! So it weren't all the Egyptian's effort that stopped them.
> 
> Israel has the nukes and Uncle Sam. So it won't be pushed into the seas as its warrior kings like to claim. Unless the enemy wants the entire middle east being nuked too.
> 
> But on conventional warfare against a sovereign power, Israel hasn't really had much victory beside terrorists with homemade explosives and unarmed protesters.
> 
> That's why it's been pushing the US to go to war with Iran. But then I supposed it's always better to have other people fight and die for you cause so if Uncle Sam's admin doesn't mind it...



You didn't skip a few wars there did you?
Or are we downplaying and rewriting history ?

If you have the ability to nuke your enemies out of existence,  then pretty sure you are in the big league.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> China have been chained in since 1949. Through a series of what US planners called "island chains".
> 
> It's only the past, maybe, decade that China saw its opportunity to break those chains. Opportunity came because, among its rising economic power... the US is a bit busy in the M.E., Europe. It's been doing small ops in Africa; getting back into its old neighbourhood of S/America.
> 
> Theoretically, geographically... China should have a very hard time protecting itself, let alone projecting its power abroad. What with a while bunch of countries surrounding it.
> 
> Continental US has what, Canada, Mexico... maybe Cuba as enemies?
> 
> With its global footprint, the US is overstretched whereas China could focus its aggression locally, take those easy wins with hardly a shot fired.
> 
> Then further abroad, they lend money, make trade, sell goods on credit... then whenever they feel like it, they'll upped their terms, call their loans in. Can't repay? Sell your assets. Don't want to? We'll do this and do that to protect a legitimate financial claim.
> 
> That's nothing new though. Just copying what the IMF such is doing to, among other countries, Greece.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Yes, VN lets the US visit. They also let the Russian visited too. That's just being polite and keeping your options open.
> 
> But sooner or later smaller countries like VN will have to pick a side. If they don't, there'll be another "civil war".



So we agree that China is currently boxed in or?
Lutz you give me history lessons on stuff I already know and originally (and briefly) answered with that I forget what I was arguing against.

So we are both on the same page:
China currently contained.
 For me yes. US will need to really work Asia over the next decade.
Agree that China is on the verge of breakout.

We need to clear some of these points up.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> ]
> 
> You didn't skip a few wars there did you?
> Or are we downplaying and rewriting history ?
> 
> If you have the ability to nuke your enemies out of existence,  then pretty sure you are in the big league.




No, if you can nuke your neighbours you're just a more serious terrorist, suicide bomber. 

You're only in the serious league when you can drop a couple, survived without a scratch... get to march in demanding the enemy's unconditional surrender then rewrite history to your liking.

There's only a few countries in the world that could do that. US, UK, France, China, Russia. Maybe Australia if we could borrow a couple 

India and Pakistan going nuclear would be suicide. Same with Israel.

I'm not saying Israel is militarily weak, just that its capabilities are more of a defensive nature... well, aggressive against weaker neighbours, but that's about it. That and its specialities are more surveillance, crowd/riot controls rather than taking on well armed, properly organised and mobilised armies - you know, armies you find in most countries who aren't completely broke.

Israeli military industries were set back a bit under Obama. Just before he left office he signed that $30B+ over ten years military aid to Israel? Used to be that some of those aids are permitted to be spent on Israeli's own industries... but Obama stopped that and only "give" it if the goods are purchased from US manufacturers.


----------



## wayneL

There we go bas,  now ain't that better (discussion and debate) than telling someone to xxxx off?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> So we agree that China is currently boxed in or?
> Lutz you give me history lessons on stuff I already know and originally (and briefly) answered with that I forget what I was arguing against.
> 
> So we are both on the same page:
> China currently contained.
> For me yes. US will need to really work Asia over the next decade.
> Agree that China is on the verge of breakout.
> 
> We need to clear some of these points up.




Yea, China's currently boxed in but are on the verge of breaking out.

But as Basilio was saying, if I remember right, no country should really boxed any country in. The best you could do is not let its influence overwhelm yours; and not let its rise mean your destruction.

You can't really boxed a country the size of China in anyway. Trying to do so will just lead to wars. 

And if we're lucky, as in the few of us who aren't in Asia... those wars will be contained within Asia and does not go nuclear. But with modern tech, the military can destroy practically everything without the need to go to midnight.

So the US should learn to share the world with the other big boys. History seem to show that they don't like to share.. in which case they, yea, should have been working hard in Asia some years ago.

But then that's not really true either as it suggests that the US haven't been working in Asia to contain China when it has since ever. 

There's the Korean War; The Vietnam War to stop that domino. There's the Suharto clan in Indonesia until the 90s; the Phillipines. 

All of those countries, except for S/Korea, have gotten their independence. S/Korea is about to make that chain a bit weaker with this plan to unify with their lost brother. 

So maybe US influence in Asia/Pacific have been on the retreat for quite a few decades now. 

I guess there's still Australia and New Zealand. We white brothers are sticking together no matter what though


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> No, if you can nuke your neighbours you're just a more serious terrorist, suicide bomber.
> 
> You're only in the serious league when you can drop a couple, survived without a scratch... get to march in demanding the enemy's unconditional surrender then rewrite history to your liking.
> 
> There's only a few countries in the world that could do that. US, UK, France, China, Russia. Maybe Australia if we could borrow a couple
> 
> India and Pakistan going nuclear would be suicide. Same with Israel.
> 
> I'm not saying Israel is militarily weak, just that its capabilities are more of a defensive nature... well, aggressive against weaker neighbours, but that's about it. That and its specialities are more surveillance, crowd/riot controls rather than taking on well armed, properly organised and mobilised armies - you know, armies you find in most countries who aren't completely broke.
> 
> Israeli military industries were set back a bit under Obama. Just before he left office he signed that $30B+ over ten years military aid to Israel? Used to be that some of those aids are permitted to be spent on Israeli's own industries... but Obama stopped that and only "give" it if the goods are purchased from US manufacturers.



You ignored Russia supporting egypt and Syria over decades. Why did the US get involved again? 
Israel don't do defence. They go offensive. Pound for pound their Special forces are at the top tier from what I have seen. 
They have continued battle experience around the region. Maybe dig a bit deeper regarding the wars and capabilities.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> There we go bas,  now ain't that better (discussion and debate) than telling someone to xxxx off?




And indeed it is!! 
Now if we could juuuusst translate this newfound discussion and good will to the global stage...

Nah. I'll just go to bed.
Cheers !


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> You ignored Russia supporting egypt and Syria over decades. Why did the US get involved again?
> Israel don't do defence. They go offensive. Pound for pound their Special forces are at the top tier from what I have seen.
> They have continued battle experience around the region. Maybe dig a bit deeper regarding the wars and capabilities.




I heard of Russian interests in Libya and Syria. Don't know anything about them in Egypt though.

I don't think they'd be in Egypt. The French, then the Poms, then the US kinda control Egypt for quite a long time. I think they've only lost control of it to the Nazi for a bit during WWII.

Why does the US want to get involved? The world's their oyster I guess 

I think it's part of their plan to be the sole global power after the collapse of the Soviet Union. That's according to Dick Cheney's memo anyway. 

But the move into Libya and Syria is more than just NATO pushing the commies back behind its iron curtain. It has to do with lotsa oil too.

Qaddafi was quite chummy with the US under Bush Jr. He had a crush on Secretary of State Condi Rice... there are rumours that he had posters of her, writing love letters and stuff. Crazy dude that guy.

But he was convinced off of his attempt at WMD. It wasn't going anywhere anyway so he figured why not if it win him friends. 

Then he figured friends don't mind if he get off the petro dollar. So he made plans to. Then boom! Evil tyrant have to go. "We came. We saw. He dies. Ah ah ah ha ha ha" - Hilary Clinton 


So with Qaddafi lynched, ISIS and warlords run and divvy up Libya. The Russians left. 

Its only remaining port in the Med is in Syria. Hence its defence of Assad. 

Why did the US go into Syria? Freedom?

Kerry told the US Senate that the Saudis and UAE offered to pay for the whole thing if the US help them rid of a tyrant and free their people. 

Why do things for free when you're good at it right? [The Joker]. 

Why did the Saudis and UAE wanted Assad out? Oil pipelines. 

They were thinking of economy of scales and efficiency. Bypassing the Suez, directly into Europe. 

Russia says no because it would compete with their export. Assad says no because Russia says no.. and because the other guys want him ousted. 

------------------

I'm of course no Israeli military expert or such. Just know bits and pieces from their few wars with the Arabs. Beside conquering the Palestinians, they didn't have much success with any other states really.

There were those incursions into Lebanon. But heard from Finkelstein that they didn't managed to go in very far. Managed to kill a few thousand villagers on the border but once the Lebanese got a few truckloads from Tehran, they pushed the Israeli back pretty well. 

Yea, I'm sure their Mossad and other secret service, elite unit, are top notch. But you can't fight wars with those units though. 

You can have selected people taken out. But taking on an entire country's military forces... for that you need big brother. 

Big brother under Trump is quite willing. Hence Bibi's current tour of Europe.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Yea, China's currently boxed in but are on the verge of breaking out.
> 
> But as Basilio was saying, if I remember right, no country should really boxed any country in. The best you could do is not let its influence overwhelm yours; and not let its rise mean your destruction.
> 
> You can't really boxed a country the size of China in anyway. Trying to do so will just lead to wars.
> 
> And if we're lucky, as in the few of us who aren't in Asia... those wars will be contained within Asia and does not go nuclear. But with modern tech, the military can destroy practically everything without the need to go to midnight.
> 
> So the US should learn to share the world with the other big boys. History seem to show that they don't like to share.. in which case they, yea, should have been working hard in Asia some years ago.
> 
> But then that's not really true either as it suggests that the US haven't been working in Asia to contain China when it has since ever.
> 
> There's the Korean War; The Vietnam War to stop that domino. There's the Suharto clan in Indonesia until the 90s; the Phillipines.
> 
> All of those countries, except for S/Korea, have gotten their independence. S/Korea is about to make that chain a bit weaker with this plan to unify with their lost brother.
> 
> So maybe US influence in Asia/Pacific have been on the retreat for quite a few decades now.
> 
> I guess there's still Australia and New Zealand. We white brothers are sticking together no matter what though



In a perfect world.



I don't think people realize how violent other countries are though. Or how far people will push if its left unchecked. People degenerate fast.

The US do a lot of bad.... a lot. But imagine if Russia, or China were calling the shots. 
What if Germany wasn't contained, or Japan. Those countries evolved into something a lot safer now. They did go through a lot of pain and self reflection.

I think china is almost at that level. Might not have a choice anyway.
Russia has a way to go yet.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> I heard of Russian interests in Libya and Syria. Don't know anything about them in Egypt though.
> 
> I don't think they'd be in Egypt. The French, then the Poms, then the US kinda control Egypt for quite a long time. I think they've only lost control of it to the Nazi for a bit during WWII.
> 
> Why does the US want to get involved? The world's their oyster I guess
> 
> I think it's part of their plan to be the sole global power after the collapse of the Soviet Union. That's according to Dick Cheney's memo anyway.
> 
> But the move into Libya and Syria is more than just NATO pushing the commies back behind its iron curtain. It has to do with lotsa oil too.
> 
> Qaddafi was quite chummy with the US under Bush Jr. He had a crush on Secretary of State Condi Rice... there are rumours that he had posters of her, writing love letters and stuff. Crazy dude that guy.
> 
> But he was convinced off of his attempt at WMD. It wasn't going anywhere anyway so he figured why not if it win him friends.
> 
> Then he figured friends don't mind if he get off the petro dollar. So he made plans to. Then boom! Evil tyrant have to go. "We came. We saw. He dies. Ah ah ah ha ha ha" - Hilary Clinton
> 
> 
> So with Qaddafi lynched, ISIS and warlords run and divvy up Libya. The Russians left.
> 
> Its only remaining port in the Med is in Syria. Hence its defence of Assad.
> 
> Why did the US go into Syria? Freedom?
> 
> Kerry told the US Senate that the Saudis and UAE offered to pay for the whole thing if the US help them rid of a tyrant and free their people.
> 
> Why do things for free when you're good at it right? [The Joker].
> 
> Why did the Saudis and UAE wanted Assad out? Oil pipelines.
> 
> They were thinking of economy of scales and efficiency. Bypassing the Suez, directly into Europe.
> 
> Russia says no because it would compete with their export. Assad says no because Russia says no.. and because the other guys want him ousted.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> I'm of course no Israeli military expert or such. Just know bits and pieces from their few wars with the Arabs. Beside conquering the Palestinians, they didn't have much success with any other states really.
> 
> There were those incursions into Lebanon. But heard from Finkelstein that they didn't managed to go in very far. Managed to kill a few thousand villagers on the border but once the Lebanese got a few truckloads from Tehran, they pushed the Israeli back pretty well.
> 
> Yea, I'm sure their Mossad and other secret service, elite unit, are top notch. But you can't fight wars with those units though.
> 
> You can have selected people taken out. But taking on an entire country's military forces... for that you need big brother.
> 
> Big brother under Trump is quite willing. Hence Bibi's current tour of Europe.



One of the famous air battles between Israel and Russia was due to egypt. It was over the Suez canal from memory. Israel gave the Russians a spanking in that dogfight as well.


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> In a perfect world.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think people realize how violent other countries are though. Or how far people will push if its left unchecked. People degenerate fast.
> 
> The US do a lot of bad.... a lot. But imagine if Russia, or China were calling the shots.
> What if Germany wasn't contained, or Japan. Those countries evolved into something a lot safer now. They did go through a lot of pain and self reflection.
> 
> I think china is almost at that level. Might not have a choice anyway.
> Russia has a way to go yet.





This.
Russia and Jina don't have a lot of opposition from within do they. Democracies like the U.S. have local media and political opponents undermining everything they do. I'm not a Trump fan boy but when it comes to pushing back against regimes like Putin's Russia, Jina and Rocket Man's NK I'm with Donald.


----------



## Darc Knight

Gotta love Rudolph Giuliani undermining everything Trump does   ....... or is it all a deliberate strategy by Trump, like the deliberate leaks from within the Trump camp previously. Trump is known for this type of thing.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> Gotta love Rudolph Giuliani undermining everything Trump does   ....... or is it all a deliberate strategy by Trump, like the deliberate leaks from within the Trump camp previously. Trump is known for this type of thing.




That stuff about Kim getting down and begging for a summit. Crass and uneccessary triumphalism. The US diplomatic corps must have been shuddering.


----------



## Darc Knight

SirRumpole said:


> That stuff about Kim getting down and begging for a summit. Crass and uneccessary triumphalism. The US diplomatic corps must have been shuddering.




Yes, Giuliani would certainly have known the possible ramifications of such statements. It was crass bragging and I suspect strategic ahead of the Summit. Guiliani would be one of Trump's closest confidants you'd think?


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> Yes, Giuliani would certainly have known the possible ramifications of such statements. It was crass bragging and I suspect strategic ahead of the Summit. Guiliani would be one of Trump's closest confidants you'd think?




With friends like that, Trump may prefer Kim.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> In a perfect world.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think people realize how violent other countries are though. Or how far people will push if its left unchecked. People degenerate fast.
> 
> The US do a lot of bad.... a lot. But imagine if Russia, or China were calling the shots.
> What if Germany wasn't contained, or Japan. Those countries evolved into something a lot safer now. They did go through a lot of pain and self reflection.
> 
> I think china is almost at that level. Might not have a choice anyway.
> Russia has a way to go yet.





If you ask the Afghani who's a more benevolent overlord - Russia or the US. They'll probably tell you it's about the same. Explosives kill everyone equally. 

Ask those IndoChinese whether French Enlightenment or Japanese Asia for the Asians or American Freedom and Liberty... same same. 

Whether American imperialism is Russian or Chinese etc. are better or worst depends on who you're asking. Their allies or their subject. 

The only good thing about Western countries, and good while it still last, are those freedom and civil rights its plebs get to enjoy. The more money they have, the more they get to enjoy it, but still, it's something.

And those rights weren't given to the people; it didn't came from the ruling elite or from the kindness of Western imperialism. It was won from struggles and fights by generations of activist and social justice hippies. 

I don't follow it, just merely listen here and there... but those rights are being eroded for quite a few decades now. 

There's the gov't rights to invade all its citizens privacy - "looking at the envelopes"... just the envelope are all your emails and phone calls and eavesdropping from all smart phones and web cams etc. Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide is the excuse. That and capturing of terrorists who obviously all plan and schedule their attacks online and through the web. 

Anyway, off topic...

As to US imperialism is kinder to Nazi or Imperial Japan's... 

Put it this way. 

After WWII, the US systematically reinstate all Nazi collaborators in "free Europe". Suppress and overthrow "communists" who fought and organised against the Nazi. 

It's the same across Asia. In S/Korea they kick out Korean nationalists and reinstate Japanese collaborators. S/Korea was pretty much a dictatorship until about the 1980s or so. 


So if Japan and the Nazi had won WWII... the Middle East would pretty much be as it is today. Differences would be maybe no Jewish state. Maybe another clan instead of the Saudis ruled that Arabian peninsula. Maybe Russia would be a very large province in the Third Reich instead of an independent nuclear power.

Japan would rule Asia. The Chinese would start to enjoy Sushi... Australia would have plenty of White terrorists not liking its oil and resources being shipping north east for nothing. 

The US will have to content itself with the Americas.



----------

I didn't know about the Soviets and Israel in Egypt.

Did saw a docu about the canal and don't remember any Soviets involvement in that battle for the Suez. From memory, Egyptian president, Nassar [?] wanted to raise money to build a dam to help with the country's ag. industry. He couldn't get any funding so decided to retake the Canal from the French.

The French stole it fair and square when some French dude got close to the last Egyptian Shah, got him to sign a 100 year lease etc. Lease weren't up yet but the general have the nerve to nationalise it.

So the French and Israeli went in to take it but Eisenhower pick up his phone and they backed off. I mean, it's one of the world's vital trade route... no has been power is going to control that.

As to Israel. It weren't of much use to the US until after that 1967 war. Before that it was more of a liability than an asset. They weren't much of a military on the scale of things. They're Jewish in a Muslim neighbourhood where Uncle is trying to win hearts and mind. harder to do that when you openly support a ragtag bunch of bible bashers. 

The '67 war gave US planners a rethink. Diversify. Not enough to pit Shiite against Sunni. Put the Jews in the mix and you got a more diversified portfolio of proxies.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> This.
> Russia and Jina don't have a lot of opposition from within do they. Democracies like the U.S. have local media and political opponents undermining everything they do. I'm not a Trump fan boy but when it comes to pushing back against regimes like Putin's Russia, Jina and Rocket Man's NK I'm with Donald.




Every country have their internal oppositions, factions. Just that in China, Russia I'm not sure seeing how they also have elections and multi-party democracy... China they just disappear and have show trials of other factions every changing of the guards - every 5 or 10 years.

As to democracies having oppositions and a "free press" undermining grand strategies... not really. 

I mean critics and oppositions are free to peacefully voiced their rants. But the main narratives from top down. 

As Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky discussed in their Manufacturing of Consent... propaganda are more refined and more effective in free, open democracies than they are in totalitarian ones.

For one, if you're in China you know what you're reading is total BS from the state information bureau. If you're reading or watching Fox News, or CNN, or channel Nine... it's hard to believe that those privately owned media barons and executives would work together with the state to censor and push certain narratives.


----------



## bellenuit

A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.


----------



## noirua

bellenuit said:


> A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.




https://www.wikihow.com/Successfully-Access-Facebook-in-China

Mobile Wikipedia is blocked though you should be able to access this one. 


*Find a VPN service that fits your needs.* A VPN (Virtual Private Network) is an encrypted connection to a remote server that allow you to access the internet from behind restrictive firewalls. VPNs affect all of your internet traffic, which means Skype and other messaging services are not stuck behind the firewall either. VPNs are not free, but some offer monthly plans as opposed to yearly fee, which can be very useful for travelers.


*Check that the VPN you want works in China.* Some of the major VPN servers have been blocked by the Chinese government and are no longer accessible. Check with the company that you are signing up with and read reviews of the service online.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.



They found out the identity of the "poo jogger" and nsw won the first state of original. You're pretty much up to speed on Australian news now.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> If you ask the Afghani who's a more benevolent overlord - Russia or the US. They'll probably tell you it's about the same. Explosives kill everyone equally.
> 
> Ask those IndoChinese whether French Enlightenment or Japanese Asia for the Asians or American Freedom and Liberty... same same.
> 
> Whether American imperialism is Russian or Chinese etc. are better or worst depends on who you're asking. Their allies or their subject.
> 
> The only good thing about Western countries, and good while it still last, are those freedom and civil rights its plebs get to enjoy. The more money they have, the more they get to enjoy it, but still, it's something.
> 
> And those rights weren't given to the people; it didn't came from the ruling elite or from the kindness of Western imperialism. It was won from struggles and fights by generations of activist and social justice hippies.
> 
> I don't follow it, just merely listen here and there... but those rights are being eroded for quite a few decades now.
> 
> There's the gov't rights to invade all its citizens privacy - "looking at the envelopes"... just the envelope are all your emails and phone calls and eavesdropping from all smart phones and web cams etc. Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide is the excuse. That and capturing of terrorists who obviously all plan and schedule their attacks online and through the web.
> 
> Anyway, off topic...
> 
> As to US imperialism is kinder to Nazi or Imperial Japan's...
> 
> Put it this way.
> 
> After WWII, the US systematically reinstate all Nazi collaborators in "free Europe". Suppress and overthrow "communists" who fought and organised against the Nazi.
> 
> It's the same across Asia. In S/Korea they kick out Korean nationalists and reinstate Japanese collaborators. S/Korea was pretty much a dictatorship until about the 1980s or so.
> 
> 
> So if Japan and the Nazi had won WWII... the Middle East would pretty much be as it is today. Differences would be maybe no Jewish state. Maybe another clan instead of the Saudis ruled that Arabian peninsula. Maybe Russia would be a very large province in the Third Reich instead of an independent nuclear power.
> 
> Japan would rule Asia. The Chinese would start to enjoy Sushi... Australia would have plenty of White terrorists not liking its oil and resources being shipping north east for nothing.
> 
> The US will have to content itself with the Americas.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> I didn't know about the Soviets and Israel in Egypt.
> 
> Did saw a docu about the canal and don't remember any Soviets involvement in that battle for the Suez. From memory, Egyptian president, Nassar [?] wanted to raise money to build a dam to help with the country's ag. industry. He couldn't get any funding so decided to retake the Canal from the French.
> 
> The French stole it fair and square when some French dude got close to the last Egyptian Shah, got him to sign a 100 year lease etc. Lease weren't up yet but the general have the nerve to nationalise it.
> 
> So the French and Israeli went in to take it but Eisenhower pick up his phone and they backed off. I mean, it's one of the world's vital trade route... no has been power is going to control that.
> 
> As to Israel. It weren't of much use to the US until after that 1967 war. Before that it was more of a liability than an asset. They weren't much of a military on the scale of things. They're Jewish in a Muslim neighbourhood where Uncle is trying to win hearts and mind. harder to do that when you openly support a ragtag bunch of bible bashers.
> 
> The '67 war gave US planners a rethink. Diversify. Not enough to pit Shiite against Sunni. Put the Jews in the mix and you got a more diversified portfolio of proxies.



Russia was arming egypt in the 67 war. Russia was also getting involved. Egypt and Russia had a falling out though after the peace treaty. The US didn't like what russia was doing. Same in Afghanistan. US armed the locals against Russia. 

I think Egypt has recently gone back to buying arms from the Soviets. I know they bought two warships from the French. And those ships were originally meant for Russia. Israel will probably start kicking up shite over that as I'm sure that affects the peace treaty.

Give me the US as world watchdog over china, or Russia- any day. All those bodies on display in Canberra as art were supposedly prisoners (potentially political ones). Russia still vaping dudes in other countries. The US gets up to a lot, but they are a lot more constrained.


----------



## moXJO

moXJO said:


> They found out the identity of the "poo jogger" and nsw won the first state of original. You're pretty much up to speed on Australian news now.



Origin


----------



## DB008

Trump does make some very interesting points.

Reciprocal trade. Aussie politicians should also take note. Our manufacturing industry is dead (as is USA). China has become the workhorse of the world.


----------



## SirRumpole

DB008 said:


> Trump does make some very interesting points.
> 
> Reciprocal trade. Aussie politicians should also take note. Our manufacturing industry is dead (as is USA). China has become the workhorse of the world.





Yes, Trump has merely voiced the frustrations of non European nations against the decades old trading cartel called the EU that has used quotas, tariffs and subsidies to lock out non EU members from exporting to EU markets.

They have been living in an ivory castle in Europe for a long time, and Trump did his "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more" party piece. Maybe better that than mealy mouthed concessions of the past.


----------



## Macquack

moXJO said:


> Russia still vaping dudes in other countries.



I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.

If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.

Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.

"Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/


----------



## DB008

Macquack said:


> I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.




I do. After Litvinenko was poisoned with Polonium 210 in London, Alexander Perepilichnyy poisoned, Berezovsky's murder made to look like suicide, you can't trust Putin.

Getting back to your quote - you can't just knock up a batch of Novichok-5 willy-nilly in your backyard shed....

Vil Mirzayanov "A Russian chemist who helped develop the Soviet-era nerve agent used to poison a former Russian double agent in southern England said only the Russian Government could have carried out the attack with such a deadly and advanced toxin."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...-uk-poison-attack-toxin-inventor-says/9546298


----------



## moXJO

Macquack said:


> I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.
> 
> If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.
> 
> Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.
> 
> "Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
> https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/




Yeah I'm not sure on that one either. I was thinking of the political opponent that had the plutonium tea or whatever it was. And the list of other ones they knocked off. 
You have to be careful though with news sources. The one you posted is considered one of the propaganda arms of the ruskies.


----------



## Macquack

DB008 said:


> Getting back to your quote - you can't just knock up a batch of Novichok-5 willy-nilly in your backyard shed....




Who said it was Novichok-5?

The alleged "nerve agent" must have been Chinese because it didn't bloody work. Skripal and his daughter have been released from hospital. Wouldn't a bullet have been much simpler.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.




Shame we can't filter out the nonsense fads from USA ans Europe to keep a whisker of our own personality


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Russia was arming egypt in the 67 war. Russia was also getting involved. Egypt and Russia had a falling out though after the peace treaty. The US didn't like what russia was doing. Same in Afghanistan. US armed the locals against Russia.
> 
> I think Egypt has recently gone back to buying arms from the Soviets. I know they bought two warships from the French. And those ships were originally meant for Russia. Israel will probably start kicking up shite over that as I'm sure that affects the peace treaty.
> 
> Give me the US as world watchdog over china, or Russia- any day. All those bodies on display in Canberra as art were supposedly prisoners (potentially political ones). Russia still vaping dudes in other countries. The US gets up to a lot, but they are a lot more constrained.




Yea, make sense if the Soviets tried to "help" too. Would be good to control the gates into the M.E. all the way to Asia.

Whether the US, or another power, is preferable as top dog depends on whether you're its junior partner or at the receiving end.

No imperial power are ever constrained. They don't restrained it by choice anyway. 

Maybe that's not completely true in modern democracies. The people are relatively free and can restrain its government to some degree. But not completely. 

Can't blame the people though. They couldn't even restrain their government from policies that directly harm the plebs themselves, so it's quite an achievement to have made it known that the people will not put up with genocide, WMD. Hence the rise of that manufacturing of consent. 

So yea, you're right that American imperialism are somewhat restrained. But restrained because they leadership fear the mob; not restrained out of kindness or civility and such. I mean, no imperial ever get to be an empire because it restrain its violence. 

Look at what happened to the Natives in the Americas. When the plebs go long with the leadership, or are too busy to be informed what's being done in their name, everybody dies. 

-------

As to those on the receiving end. It doesn't just mean the victims overseas. 

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90s killed an estimated 100,000+ Iraqi children. That's a price "worth" paying for, according to its then Sec. of State. The wars in just Iraq and Afghan killed an estimated 2million a piece. And that stat is a few years old now.

Those are direct victims. 

Indirect ones are the empire's own citizens. 

The plebs do not benefit from war and empire building activities of its masters. They're the one whose sons go fight and die in it. Their taxes are being spent on war machines instead of school, healthcare and other useful goods and services. Blowbacks are often directed at them, the soft targets. etc. etc.

It's one of the reasons arms merchants and corporate titans love war so much. The expense are paid for by other people; the great bargains and reconstruction contracts; the war booties and jobs programmes... those are always handed to them with guaranteed profit margin. 

Take the current example of US sanctions against Iran and Russia. 

The Europeans will have to buy its energy from the US and Saudis. At 3x the costs if there's no sanctions. 

And because the Russian threat is "imminent", even Sweden and Finland need to upped its military spending to prepare for the Russian invasion, have to open its country to more NATO bases. 

And if war do break out, who will be first to pay the price? At least a few European cities will be wiped out within the first few minutes if the US and Russia presses the wrong button.


----------



## luutzu

Macquack said:


> I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.
> 
> If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.
> 
> Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.
> 
> "Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
> https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/




Yea, I also heard that the nurse who attend to the Skirpals said they were not instructed to wear anything more protective than the usual medical gears. 

Of course that's not to say that Russia doesn't do assassination and such. All countries do that kind of stuff don't they? I mean, that doesn't make it right and we're not excusing it... Just that, pot calling kettle black right?


----------



## noirua

Macquack said:


> I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.
> 
> If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.
> 
> Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.
> 
> "Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
> https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/




The Russians have been killing off people who leave who are anti-Putin for very many years. If you kill scores of people don't get upset if you're blamed for one you didn't do.


----------



## SirRumpole

Amazing end to the G7 meeting with Trump storming off.

Although he's right on tariffs, his apparent movement towards Russia and away from traditional democratic allies may have a lot of people saying "whose side is he really on", and whether he can be trusted in military/intelligence information transfers.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Amazing end to the G7 meeting with Trump storming off.
> 
> Although he's right on tariffs, his apparent movement towards Russia and away from traditional democratic allies may have a lot of people saying "whose side is he really on", and whether he can be trusted in military/intelligence information transfers.



G7 are hypocritical sponges. Military aid and ploughing goods into the US. While they themselves put up tariffs on US goods. Whats Canadas exports to the US,  like 75% or something. They sure the want to get in a trade war.

As for Russia it would be interesting to see what motives trump has for them.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> G7 are hypocritical sponges. Military aid and ploughing goods into the US. While they themselves put up tariffs on US goods. Whats Canadas exports to the US,  like 75% or something. They sure the want to get in a trade war.
> 
> As for Russia it would be interesting to see what motives trump has for them.



The last time Canada tried to play this game didn't work out so well for Canada


----------



## Darc Knight

Damn can't make image work.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Amazing end to the G7 meeting with Trump storming off.
> 
> Although he's right on tariffs, his apparent movement towards Russia and away from traditional democratic allies may have a lot of people saying "whose side is he really on", and whether he can be trusted in military/intelligence information transfers.




Amazing ? Yes.. perhaps very concerning. 
With regard to "whose side is he really on " ? Perhaps he is the original Manchurian/Siberian Candidate ?

I'm wondering how the rest of the "free " world responds to Trumps  bullying determination to recast the world in Trumps favour (I don't think it will be in the US best interests by any means.)

Perhaps we will see the rise of The Trump Internationale. It could be right wing nationalist groups coming together in various European countries to oppose current democratic governments and offering homage to Trump as their inspirer. It will be interesting to see the response of the Italian and Austrian far right parties to the G7 outcome. We already know the Polish and Hungarian authoritarian governments  are Trump supporters in principle.


----------



## Tink

Is this the photograph that sums up the G7 summit?

http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/09/is-this-the-photograph-that-sums-up-the-g7-summit-


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Amazing ? Yes.. perhaps very concerning.
> With regard to "whose side is he really on " ? Perhaps he is the original Manchurian/Siberian Candidate ?
> 
> I'm wondering how the rest of the "free " world responds to Trumps  bullying determination to recast the world in Trumps favour (I don't think it will be in the US best interests by any means.)
> 
> Perhaps we will see the rise of The Trump Internationale. It could be right wing nationalist groups coming together in various European countries to oppose current democratic governments and offering homage to Trump as their inspirer. It will be interesting to see the response of the Italian and Austrian far right parties to the G7 outcome. We already know the Polish and Hungarian authoritarian governments  are Trump supporters in principle.



LMAO 

You obviously missed the point that these governments are in power *via* the democratic process, precisely because the globalists are ignoring the will of the majority, ie antidemocratic.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Amazing ? Yes.. perhaps very concerning.
> With regard to "whose side is he really on " ? Perhaps he is the original Manchurian/Siberian Candidate ?
> 
> I'm wondering how the rest of the "free " world responds to Trumps  bullying determination to recast the world in Trumps favour (I don't think it will be in the US best interests by any means.)
> 
> Perhaps we will see the rise of The Trump Internationale. It could be right wing nationalist groups coming together in various European countries to oppose current democratic governments and offering homage to Trump as their inspirer. It will be interesting to see the response of the Italian and Austrian far right parties to the G7 outcome. We already know the Polish and Hungarian authoritarian governments  are Trump supporters in principle.



I'm wondering what trumps thinking in regards to Russia. Is it just greed?  Does he see Russia as an untapped source of exports? 
Or does he think its a waste of money fighting all these proxy wars?


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I'm wondering what trumps thinking in regards to Russia. Is it just greed?  Does he see Russia as an untapped source of exports?
> Or does he think its a waste of money fighting all these proxy wars?




Empire building in relation to Trump towers and resorts in Russia after his Presidency I'd say.


----------



## Darc Knight

Tink said:


> Is this the photograph that sums up the G7 summit?
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/09/is-this-the-photograph-that-sums-up-the-g7-summit-




That's the image I tried to post. Its a very interesting picture. Trump openly stubborn and defiant, Merkel, May and others almost standing over him. Very interesting.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Empire building in relation to Trump towers and resorts in Russia after his Presidency I'd say.



He would already strung up if there was even a whiff of collusion.


----------



## basilio

One analysis of Donald Trumps Russian interests.

*“Set aside Putin and follow the money”: a Russia expert’s theory of the Trump scandal*
*Why the collusion story begins with money, not politics.*
By Sean Illing@seanillingsean.illing@vox.com  Updated  Jan 3, 2018, 9:49am EST
     Share 




MAY 10, 2017: Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, US President Donald Trump, and Russia's Ambassador to the United States Sergei Kislyak (L-R) during a meeting in the Oval Office at the White House.
Getty Images
“To understand the roots of the collusion, set aside Putin and follow the money.”

That’s what Seva Gunitsky, a politics professor at the University of Toronto and the author of _Aftershocks_, told me in a September interview. I reached out to Gunitsky after he posted a short but incisive thread on Twitter about the financial roots of the Trump-Russia collusion case.

Gunitsky, who was raised in Russia, has followed the evolving relationship between Donald Trump and Russia for more than a decade. He says the prevailing narrative about Putin interfering in the American election in order to undermine democracy is wildly overstated.

Putin is happy to sow confusion and distrust in America’s system, of course, but to assume that’s the basis of this operation is to overlook a much simpler motive: money. 

https://www.vox.com/2017/7/18/15983910/donald-trump-russia-putin-fbi-collusion-fusion-gps


----------



## DB008

Hmm....


----------



## ghotib

DB008 said:


> Hmm....
> 
> View attachment 87773​



Because your president is the one doing the pushing.


----------



## wayneL

ghotib said:


> Because your president is the one doing the pushing.



Pushback is more accurate


----------



## noirua




----------



## Darc Knight

I can't see how this summit is going to achieve anything. Kim isn't going to give up his Nukes so all I can think is Trump is hoping to build rapport with Kim so NK doesn't view the U.S. as an enemy/target.


----------



## DB008




----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> I can't see how this summit is going to achieve anything. Kim isn't going to give up his Nukes so all I can think is Trump is hoping to build rapport with Kim so NK doesn't view the U.S. as an enemy/target.



Open dialogue is a massive start. Millions of people will benefit. 
The nukes may have just been a ruse to get NK to the negotiating table. 

US has already freed their political prisoners. And research and test sites shutdown (doesn’t mean much).
But the news would rather cover De Niro spazzing out yet again. I noticed he apologized to Canada as well.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> I can't see how this summit is going to achieve anything. Kim isn't going to give up his Nukes so all I can think is Trump is hoping to build rapport with Kim so NK doesn't view the U.S. as an enemy/target.




Funny how the US always wants others to give up their nuclear weapons but doesn't offer to do so themselves.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I noticed he apologized to Canada as well.




When ?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how the US always wants others to give up their nuclear weapons but doesn't offer to do so themselves.




Only free, responsible, peace-loving, international law respecting countries get to keep their nukes SirR.

Soo... is Kim still a lil bastard who had his elder brother killed, oppressed his people etc. Or is Kim now an acceptable, cool kind of guy? 

Or is he only cool if, until, he side with the good side?

--------
In other news,
Canada just agreed to loan and guarantee Canadian corporations affected by US tarriffs. 

If every country get into this trade wars, and every country uses its tax payers money to relief those with the biggest campaign donation... So consumers will pay the higher prices, their tax dollars goes to "protect" jobs... all while corporations get to make their same profit margin?

Is that just being too negative or the plebs are getting screwed again?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Only free, responsible, peace-loving, international law respecting countries get to keep their nukes SirR.
> 
> Soo... is Kim still a lil bastard who had his elder brother killed, oppressed his people etc. Or is Kim now an acceptable, cool kind of guy?
> 
> Or is he only cool if, until, he side with the good side?
> 
> --------
> In other news,
> Canada just agreed to loan and guarantee Canadian corporations affected by US tarriffs.
> 
> If every country get into this trade wars, and every country uses its tax payers money to relief those with the biggest campaign donation... So consumers will pay the higher prices, their tax dollars goes to "protect" jobs... all while corporations get to make their same profit margin?
> 
> Is that just being too negative or the plebs are getting screwed again?



In kims case- free the people and it usually takes care of itself. If the society opens up more, then it allows more scrutiny.

As for Canada,  the taxpayers have been grabbing their ankles for years.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> When ?



De Niro did, not trump.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> In kims case- free the people and it usually takes care of itself. If the society opens up more, then it allows more scrutiny.
> 
> As for Canada,  the taxpayers have been grabbing their ankles for years.




What does "grabbing their ankles" mean? Serious, I don't understand some catchphrases. ESL student here.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> What does "grabbing their ankles" mean? Serious, I don't understand some catchphrases. ESL student here.





Really!!!


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> What does "grabbing their ankles" mean? Serious, I don't understand some catchphrases. ESL student here.



Stand up straight then grab your ankles without bending your knees. Stop and ponder it's significance.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Really!!!




I know it's obvious, just a few generous souls out there overlook the grammar and focus on the content instead.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Stand up straight then grab your ankles without bending your knees. Stop and ponder it's significance.




Not possible. So how does that apply to Canadians? You know that it also apply to Australians if it applies to those half French half Poms guys right?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Not possible. So how does that apply to Canadians? You know that it also apply to Australians if it applies to those half French half Poms guys right?



Are we arguing which plebs across the world take it?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Are we arguing which plebs across the world take it?



"....As for Canada, the taxpayers have been grabbing their ankles for years."

Please explain.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> "....As for Canada, the taxpayers have been grabbing their ankles for years."
> 
> Please explain.




You worried about conjunctions or something?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> You worried about conjunctions or something?




I really have to stop staying up late from now. It doesn't help with the English


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> "....As for Canada, the taxpayers have been grabbing their ankles for years."
> 
> Please explain.



Same as here. Overbloated public sector and waste.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Same as here. Overbloated public sector and waste.




I know, using taxpayers' money to pay for their grandkids weddings, housing estate and weekly allowances.

We all receive welfare, just for some it's not called "welfare" but are "incentives", "jobs creation", "growth something", "partnership" and the like.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> I know, using taxpayers' money to pay for their grandkids weddings, housing estate and weekly allowances.
> 
> We all receive welfare, just for some it's not called "welfare" but are "incentives", "jobs creation", "growth something", "partnership" and the like.





I get zip and was too well paid to get any benefits so when you say all, that is not true.


----------



## sptrawler

Trump, despite all the naysayers, appears to be achieving more in his short stay as President, than the last three put together. IMO
Maybe the "experts" didn't call it right, when they said he would be a disaster, time will tell.
The Dow is up massively since his election.
The dude from North Korea, is talking, rather than giving everyone the "bird".
China's massive trade distortion, is on the table, as it should be.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Trump, despite all the naysayers, appears to be achieving more in his short stay as President, than the last three put together. IMO




If you call the destruction of the Western Alliance an "achievement" then you may be right.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> If you call the destruction of the Western Alliance an "achievement" then you may be right.




What alliance?


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> What alliance?




Ever heard of NATO, NORAD, 5 eyes ?


----------



## sptrawler

Yes, but how has he destroyed them?


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Yes, but how has he destroyed them?




He's started the process by getting into a scrap with Trudeau and engendering distrust and suspicion with the other Western allies.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> He's started the process by getting into a scrap with Trudeau and engendering distrust and suspicion with the other Western allies.



Oh No Canada is angry. Pretty sure they're shting themselves with Russia claiming the North pole. All the western allies need the US, as none of them spent enough gdp on defense.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> He's started the process by getting into a scrap with Trudeau and engendering distrust and suspicion with the other Western allies.



Oh that's it?


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Oh No Canada is angry. Pretty sure they're shting themselves with Russia claiming the North pole. All the western allies need the US, as none of them spent enough gdp on defense.




That's exactly right, the West is using the U.S as an unpaid security service, while the U.S pays for it.
But hey, that's how  welfare states work. lol


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> In kims case- free the people and it usually takes care of itself. If the society opens up more, then it allows more scrutiny.




Hang on what about the gulags holding 3rd generations in NK...........


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Hang on what about the gulags holding 3rd generations in NK...........



Exactly.
Can't do much when there is no dialogue, or access.
I'd like to see the current regime and their ideology smashed. But small steps is better than nothing.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> That's exactly right, the West is using the U.S as an unpaid security service, while the U.S pays for it.
> But hey, that's how  welfare states work. lol




Pretty sure the US agreed to be the worlds protector in return for other States not developing large scale nuclear weapons capability. It wanted to be the only country that could blow up the world.


----------



## moXJO

Deal is done. 
Nobel Peace prize next in the works.

Conspiracy theorist in me wants to say NK staged the whole nukes to gain leverage. Does China have a bigger plan for a greater Asia?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty sure the US agreed to be the worlds protector in return for other States not developing large scale nuclear weapons capability. It wanted to be the only country that could blow up the world.



The other countries were meant to have a minimum gdp spend on defense. A lot dropped their expenditure.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Deal is done.
> Nobel Peace prize next in the works.
> 
> Conspiracy theorist in me wants to say NK staged the whole nukes to gain leverage. Does China have a bigger plan for a greater Asia?




Who really believes that a person who has members of his own family murdered will stick to a deal ?

Trump is being played like a violin.


----------



## PZ99

sptrawler said:


> That's exactly right, the West is using the U.S as an unpaid security service, while the U.S pays for it.
> But hey, that's how  welfare states work. lol



Unpaid security service? More than a thousand non US troops have died in Afghanistan alone fighting for US interests. Plus 40 Australians. (Sheet happens, apparently)

Any debt we owe the US has been well and truly discharged by now.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Trump is being played like a violin.



More than likely. But whats really going on. 

 I know the military junta in Thailand has been getting cosy with China and buying weapons. Might investigate a bit and see which other nations they are arming.


----------



## sptrawler

PZ99 said:


> Unpaid security service? More than a thousand non US troops have died in Afghanistan alone fighting for US interests. Plus 40 Australians. (Sheet happens, apparently)
> 
> Any debt we owe the US has been well and truly discharged by now.




Well they are the only thing, that stands between us, and having rice as our staple diet.
Having said that, Australia has backed the U.S, through thick and thin and that probably stands us in good stead.
I'm not so sure European Countries, who were liberated by the U.S have been so forthcoming in their sharing of the load, so to speak.
All I was pointing out is, it is very easy to criticise those who help you, when their help isn't required.
It is funny how that turns to panic and begging, when their help is required, as has been proven through all aspects of life.


----------



## noirua




----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> All I was pointing out is, it is very easy to criticise those who help you, when their help isn't required.
> It is funny how that turns to panic and begging, when their help is required, as has been proven through all aspects of life.




Nobody likes to feel feckless, even if he/she is.


----------



## sptrawler

Actually he isn't with us, he is trying to reverse probably 50 years of offshoring manufacturing,  to the cheapest labour source.
We are just collateral damage, the game changer was when they outsourced to China.
Now they are producing the same products, as the U.S at a lower price, and as was proved by Japan quality follows over to time.


----------



## Darc Knight

The big problem I see with this is the dozens or so books on "how I saved the World" Trump is going to be flogging. The constant braggadocio of having done "a really great great great big big big deal!"
Then there's Jina and South Korea. You think Jina will be happy the Yanks have military access to their neighbour North Korea?
It's a big change in word affairs.


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> You think Jina will be happy the Yanks have military access to their neighbour North Korea?
> It's a big change in word affairs.




China might just want the US to unlock N Korea so it can do a land grab itself:

remember the guy who wanted to march into China:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/douglasmacarthurfarewelladdress.htm


----------



## moXJO

China was always worried that millions of starving NK refugees would rush the border if things went south with the US. 
Right now business is preparing to rush NK as the last untapped asian resource. Finance will flow in if sanctions are lifted. Where else can you find better trained workers at slave prices.
Saves china a headache.


----------



## luutzu

PZ99 said:


> Unpaid security service? More than a thousand non US troops have died in Afghanistan alone fighting for US interests. Plus 40 Australians. (Sheet happens, apparently)
> 
> Any debt we owe the US has been well and truly discharged by now.




Unfortunate that's not the end of it.

If, say, the US decided to take on China. Australians will have to join that fight whether we like to or not.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Unfortunate that's not the end of it.
> 
> If, say, the US decided to take on China. Australians will have to join that fight whether we like to or not.




Doubtful if the US will take on China with conventional weapons, certainly not soldiers. More likely with nukes.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> China might just want the US to unlock N Korea so it can do a land grab itself:
> 
> remember the guy who wanted to march into China:
> 
> http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/douglasmacarthurfarewelladdress.htm




You might be right on that one. But then maybe both sides are thinking the same, one pushing closer to the border, the other expanding their buffer zone.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Doubtful if the US will take on China with conventional weapons, certainly not soldiers. More likely with nukes.




If it's nukes, the whole world will pay the price.

It'll be proxy wars similar to the adventure in VN, Cambodia etc. 

Then there'll be trade wars. Would be hard for Australia to keep supplying the boss's enemy with raw materials and vitamins without being told off.


----------



## Tink

Reports suggest around 100,000 political prisoners are being held in gulags in North Korea

    Mr Trump says he believes the prisoners are 'the great winners' of the summit

    Mr Trump says summit would not have happened without Otto Warmbier

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...do-right-thing-on-human-rights-abuses/9862192


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Doubtful if the US will take on China with conventional weapons, certainly not soldiers. More likely with nukes.



They wouldn't use nukes. Thats last last resort or if there is danger of a first strike. Fallout potentially would affect neighboring allies as well.

They would use airpower and attempt to push navy into position. China has a lot of manpower but not well equipped or trained.
I don't think it would come to that though.


----------



## McLovin

moXJO said:


> I don't think it would come to that though.




If it gets to that point then we're all screwed. China would sink a carrier fleet in about twenty minutes in a real war on China's doorstep.

Lil' Rocket Man seems to have gotten some amazing concessions. No more war games, a formal peace treaty in the offing and Trump talking about removing US troops from SK. And all that LRM had to signup for was a vague agreement to denuclearise the Korean peninsula and repatriate the remains of US troops from the Korean war. It made good TV (which I think was the point) and I hope it leads to a positive outcome, but who knows, it's not like we haven't been here before. Kim is definitely more market orientated than his father and grandfather, his willingness to leave NK to travel to Singapore signals more of a change than anything else, imo. Maybe he intends to cut himself more in the mould of Putin than Stalin.

Pyonghattan is actually a thing these days...I was there in 2006, it reads like a totally different city to the one I visited.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7028f7f8675b


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> If it gets to that point then we're all screwed. China would sink a carrier fleet in about twenty minutes in a real war on China's doorstep.
> 
> Lil' Rocket Man seems to have gotten some amazing concessions. No more war games, a formal peace treaty in the offing and Trump talking about removing US troops from SK. And all that LRM had to signup for was a vague agreement to denuclearise the Korean peninsula and repatriate the remains of US troops from the Korean war. It made good TV (which I think was the point) and I hope it leads to a positive outcome, but who knows, it's not like we haven't been here before. Kim is definitely more market orientated than his father and grandfather, his willingness to leave NK to travel to Singapore signals more of a change than anything else, imo. Maybe he intends to cut himself more in the mould of Putin than Stalin.
> 
> Pyonghattan is actually a thing these days...I was there in 2006, it reads like a totally different city to the one I visited.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7028f7f8675b



Interesting persective,  sans action-consequence analysis. 

In what capacity did you visit?


----------



## Tink

Here is another one, McLovin

Atrocities Under Kim Jong-un: Indoctrination, Prison Gulags, Executions

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/world/asia/north-korea-human-rights.html


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> Interesting persective,  sans action-consequence analysis.




I'm reading the cards as I see them. There's no need to run through millions of permutations of what might/might not occur, because NK is actually a fairly easy country to read. They push everyone to the edge then they pull back and start the wheel again. They've done it dozens of times over the last sixty-five years. Maybe this time is different. I hope so. The fact Kim travelled to Singapore and that he is far more pro-market than his predecessors speaks more loudly than that bit of paper they signed that's worth squat. Opening their economy even slightly, will bring change. Slow change, but change. Agreement on CVID was meant to be the cornerstone of the summit. Instead they agreed to work toward denuclearisation, but they are miles apart on what denuclearisation looks like in practise.

Do I believe the sincerity of a brutal, Stalinist autocracy that was threatening to rain down nuclear weapons on the US and its allies at the start of year? No.


----------



## Knobby22

McLovin said:


> If it gets to that point then we're all screwed. China would sink a carrier fleet in about twenty minutes in a real war on China's doorstep.
> 
> Lil' Rocket Man seems to have gotten some amazing concessions. No more war games, a formal peace treaty in the offing and Trump talking about removing US troops from SK. And all that LRM had to signup for was a vague agreement to denuclearise the Korean peninsula and repatriate the remains of US troops from the Korean war. It made good TV (which I think was the point) and I hope it leads to a positive outcome, but who knows, it's not like we haven't been here before. Kim is definitely more market orientated than his father and grandfather, his willingness to leave NK to travel to Singapore signals more of a change than anything else, imo. Maybe he intends to cut himself more in the mould of Putin than Stalin.
> 
> Pyonghattan is actually a thing these days...I was there in 2006, it reads like a totally different city to the one I visited.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7028f7f8675b




I don't think the deal is that amazing. No more war games -well so what? Always can bring them back.
The USA would love to leave South Korea, the cost is enormous. A peace treaty suits all parties if it can be pulled off. China want it also. North Korea gets rid of all the nukes, so no US city is in danger.

I think Trumps is acting sensibly on this one. Lot of lefties and righties trying to stop it arguing Kim should be tried for war crimes or other nonsense. The UN don't rule the world. Just do the deal. Plenty of other dictators around, this is just a tin pot country of no real consequence.

Kim went to school in the west and loves basketball and Rodham. He wants to be part of the world, unlike his Dad. He needs to keep the ruling class happy. He'll do the deal if he is allowed to.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> The USA would love to leave South Korea, the cost is enormous. A peace treaty suits all parties if it can be pulled off




The South Koreans would be nervous if the US pulled its troops out. A NK invasion with the assistance of China would then be a possibility. Would the US take on NK and China in South Korea ? 

Unlikely IMO.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> The South Koreans would be nervous if the US pulled its troops out. A NK invasion with the assistance of China would then be a possibility. Would the US take on NK and China in South Korea ?
> 
> Unlikely IMO.




Funnily enough, that is exactly what was said, before the Vietnam war. If North Vietnam take over South Vietnam, the commies will get in and it will be the end of SE Asia.
Did it?


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough, that is exactly what was said, before the Vietnam war. If North Vietnam take over South Vietnam, the commies will get in and it will be the end of SE Asia.
> Did it?




Did what ?

Are you saying the South Koreans wouldn't be nervous if the US pulled out of South Korea ?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Did what ?
> 
> Are you saying the South Koreans wouldn't be nervous if the US pulled out of South Korea ?




Their current president, Moon, got the ball rolling on this one. 

The S/Korean plebs, from interviews I saw, doesn't seem to like the US military having its bases all over their country. It just invite potential retaliatory attack if the US decided to go to war or something.

That and them having to literally pay for a fair chunk of the bases' expenditure for the pleasure. e.g. they recently have to fork out some half a billion to develop a new naval jetty and shed so the US Navy can park a few more boats and subs there. 

Not sure why the US is going along with this plan to potentially unify the Koreas. Can't be because they're hoping the Chinese and Russian wouldn't mind the US moving their gears a bit closer north. 

Maybe public sentiment have made it known the Koreans wanted peace, so might as well go for a photo ops and Trump's Peace Prize, then scuttle it somehow.

Or maybe it give a reasonable excuse to move those 30,000 odd US personnel and some other hundreds of thousands US citizens further away from the DMZ... making it a lot easier, at home, to carry out that Libya model. 

Don't want to poo pooed the peace and all that. Just that the Korean Peninsular is the anchor in a couple of that Island Chain strategy to reign in China (and Russia)... It's weird for any military power to suddenly lift the anchor. Not now when China's staking claims on all the seas surrounding its borders.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Did what ?
> 
> Are you saying the South Koreans wouldn't be nervous if the US pulled out of South Korea ?



I wouldn't know how the South Koreans feel about it.

I do know, that just because the U.S pulls out, doesn't mean that North Korea will automatically invade South Korea.
Who knows, maybe North and South Korea want to unite peacefully?


----------



## SirRumpole

SirRumpole said:


> Did what ?





sptrawler said:


> Who knows, maybe North and South Korea want to unite peacefully?




South Koreans want to unite with a guy that murders his own family and throws tens of thousands of its citizens into slavery and hunger ?

Yeah, right.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> South Koreans want to unite with a guy that murders his own family and throws tens of thousands of its citizens into slavery and hunger ?
> 
> Yeah, right.




Maybe they don't want to unite with lil' Kim in the big house. Just reunite with their own family who've been starving in some backwater somewhere all these decades.


----------



## Darc Knight

I heard some "Analyst" say South won't want to reunite with North due to the enormous cost of rescuing and rebuilding the North.


----------



## Tisme

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-13/donald-trump-tweets-punch-drunk-reaction-to-de-niro/9863554


----------



## Knobby22

If you were South Korean you would like to go to sleep in the knowledge that your neighbour isn't going to destroy you at any time? North Korea want some of the pie. South Korea can make a profit selling some.


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> South Koreans want to unite with a guy that murders his own family and throws tens of thousands of its citizens into slavery and hunger ?
> 
> Yeah, right.




Yes he inherited a gulag. Has to bone a few


Darc Knight said:


> I heard some "Analyst" say South won't want to reunite with North due to the enormous cost of rescuing and rebuilding the North.




China won't let them reunite in any case. Not until they have used soft power on the south and set up another Hong Kong, will take years but they are good at playing the long game.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> South Koreans want to unite with a guy that murders his own family and throws tens of thousands of its citizens into slavery and hunger ?
> 
> Yeah, right.




i may have been wrong when I said,"who knows", obviously you do.


----------



## sptrawler

I guess time will tell how well the meeting between Trump and Kim Jong Un went, as usual the media appears to think the glass is half empty IMO, maybe it sells better.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Well they are the only thing, that stands between us, and having rice as our staple diet.
> Having said that, Australia has backed the U.S, through thick and thin and that probably stands us in good stead.
> I'm not so sure European Countries, who were liberated by the U.S have been so forthcoming in their sharing of the load, so to speak.
> All I was pointing out is, it is very easy to criticise those who help you, when their help isn't required.
> It is funny how that turns to panic and begging, when their help is required, as has been proven through all aspects of life.




I read today, the EU is going to spend 21billion, on military upgrades. Maybe Donald isn't as silly, as some think.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/eu-defence-gets-e20-billion-budget-boost/

Who Knows? Just because some media bag him, doesn't in itself form a basis, to denounce him. lol
Though plenty seem to be willing to take on board, their views.
Time will tell.
Maybe he will be the first President, that hasn't bowed to protocol and winged it. lol
It's a shame Australia has lost that ability. IMO


----------



## Darc Knight

North Korea should become an economic dynamo. No shortage of cheap labour, or is that slave labour. You reckon Trump didn't point that out to dckhead Kim.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> I read today, the EU is going to spend 21billion, on military upgrades. Maybe Donald isn't as silly, as some think.
> 
> https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/eu-defence-gets-e20-billion-budget-boost/
> 
> Who Knows? Just because some media bag him, doesn't in itself form a basis, to denounce him. lol
> Though plenty seem to be willing to take on board, their views.
> Time will tell.
> Maybe he will be the first President, that hasn't bowed to protocol and winged it. lol
> It's a shame Australia has lost that ability. IMO




The journos are peeved because they have spent years building contact networks, compromised govt members and concocted news that even Presidents have duly responded to defensively.

What does Trump do, but side step all that and go straight to the masses via Twatter, but wait, he trivialises what would have been front page conspiracies, intrigue and opinion pieces for what it is.....conjecture.

In the vacuum, the press is looking for a modern day Watergate instead of devolving back to the days when news opinion was the editor's column, the rest reporting


----------



## McLovin

LOL


----------



## Gringotts Bank

McLovin said:


> LOL




LOL, I love the naivete in that statement.

He's doing very well the old Trumpster.  Obama and Hilary must sit back and wonder how he does it.


----------



## sptrawler

Gringotts Bank said:


> LOL, I love the naivete in that statement.
> 
> He's doing very well the old Trumpster.  Obama and Hilary must sit back and wonder how he does it.




The problem for Obama is, it is highlighting how impotent, his leadership was.
The longer it goes, on the less he will pull, on the lecture circuit. IMO


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> The problem for Obama is, it is highlighting how impotent, his leadership was.
> The longer it goes, on the less he will pull, on the lecture circuit. IMO




Obama promised change. And he delivered..... Trump.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> The problem for Obama is, it is highlighting how impotent, his leadership was.
> The longer it goes, on the less he will pull, on the lecture circuit. IMO




Trump got  meeting with a psycho and his signature. Time will tell if it's any more than that.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Obama promised change. And he delivered..... Trump.




Quite an achievement if you think about it.

Got to go all the way back to, I don't know, Nero to find a person of such calibre on the throne. 

What's more amazing is that Nero inherited the power by his birthright. Trump just paid a few actors to attend his announcement and won it with just empty talks.


----------



## luutzu

Soo... Trumps daughter and son-in-law raked in about $108M last year. They're both "senior advisor", "peace" envoy for the United States (with a small side business to keep things interesting). 

Have't seen this kind of corruption since the Princlings of Beijing.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Obama promised change. And he delivered..... Trump.



Yes we can.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Quite an achievement if you think about it.
> 
> Got to go all the way back to, I don't know, Nero to find a person of such calibre on the throne.
> 
> What's more amazing is that Nero inherited the power by his birthright. Trump just paid a few actors to attend his announcement and won it with just empty talks.



It shows that people were really sick of the system, that Trump was the best option.
Cheers Obama.... you were the straw that broke the camels back.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> It shows that people were really sick of the system, that Trump was the best option.
> Cheers Obama.... you were the straw that broke the camels back.




He sure was.

But it's alright though, he got $500M for his presidential centre and will be producing content for NetFlix. Imagine how inspired the kids will be.


----------



## Darc Knight

First thing I hear this morning is that the deal is already falling apart .U.S  now say they aren't going to fully suspend war games with South Korea and there's no verification process for determining if North Korea is disarming.
They say this is the fifth of these such agreements which have previously been broken.


----------



## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> First thing I hear this morning is that the deal is already falling apart .U.S  now say they aren't going to fully suspend war games with South Korea and there's no verification process for determining if North Korea is disarming.
> They say this is the fifth of these such agreements which have previously been broken.



What, they are going to lose the slave labour?


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> What, they are going to lose the slave labour?




Sometimes life is so unfair hey!


----------



## ilex.com.au

like


----------



## sptrawler

At last some reporters, are starting to state the obvious, about the Trump hating press and naysayers.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/paul...k-at-what-happened-in-singapore-ng-b88867500z

It is about time the fools were taken to task, constantly bagging Trump, doesn't hide the fact he is getting America moving. It is just a typical display of the tall poppy syndrome,someone going out on a limb and saying it as it is, should be applauded not derided.
Tisme summed up the press pretty well in his post.
The journos are peeved because they have spent years building contact networks, compromised govt members and concocted news that even Presidents have duly responded to defensively.


----------



## IFocus

Yeah how can anyone criticize Trump is beyond me.......dividing the US will be great for the future, tarfits on nations that have a trade deficit with the US sheer genus, breaking alliances with western allies forged to stop future wars brilliant.

Lock him up the man is just a criminal.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Yeah how can anyone criticize Trump is beyond me.......dividing the US will be great for the future, tarfits on nations that have a trade deficit with the US sheer genus, breaking alliances with western allies forged to stop future wars brilliant.
> 
> Lock him up the man is just a criminal.



What a biased load of piffle... 

The US has been taking it up the 455 for so long on all those issues for so long,  the left are no longer able to even think remotely critically. 

Analysis bro,  use your brain.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> What a biased load of piffle...
> 
> The US has been taking it up the 455 for so long on all those issues for so long,  the left are no longer able to even think remotely critically.
> 
> Analysis bro,  use your brain.




The US has an unemployment rate of about 3.8% which is about as low as you can get in a free enterprise economy.

So much for foreigners taking all the jobs.

Analyse that.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Yeah how can anyone criticize Trump is beyond me.......dividing the US will be great for the future, tarfits on nations that have a trade deficit with the US sheer genus, breaking alliances with western allies forged to stop future wars brilliant.
> 
> Lock him up the man is just a criminal.




Would they be the allies, who have either just paid off what they owed for the last war?
Or would it be the allies, that paid nothing for the last war and don't pay much now?


----------



## Darc Knight

Aren't most of the people posting in this thread at least middle age? Aren't you aware of all the associates of Trump who have come forward to detail his thoroughly unethical nature. From his self described childhood as a Bully, to his not paying contractors, his lying to promote his business, his predatorial behaviour in business. His rape of his ex wife Ivana and numerous sexual assualts. The failed attempt to control Boxing and destroying Mike Tyson in the process. The list is endless.
That's the problem most informed people have with Trump, his unethical nature and past.
He's a documentary with plenty of brave ex associates who have come forward


----------



## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> Aren't most of the people posting in this thread at least middle age? Aren't you aware of all the associates of Trump who have come forward to detail his thoroughly unethical nature. From his self described childhood as a Bully, to his not paying contractors, his lying to promote his business, his predatorial behaviour in business. His rape of his ex wife Ivana and numerous sexual assualts. The failed attempt to control Boxing and destroying Mike Tyson in the process. The list is endless.
> That's the problem most informed people have with Trump, his unethical nature and past.
> He's a documentary with plenty of brave ex associates who have come forward





Probably most people on here are over middle aged, that is probably why we don't get caught up in the warm feel good politically correct stuff.
I'm not discussing Trump, with regard him marrying my daughter, or being whether I want him to be my BFF if that is what they say, I just want somebody to sort the $hit out.
This is serious, in the U.S.A term deposits in 2017, were getting 0.09% on savings, that's not good in a capitalist system.
Obama did nothing to sort the stalled monetary system, because he didn't want to confront the reality, the U.S is the biggest market place in the Western World it has to get moving.
The reality is China has linked it currency to the U.S currency, and won't float it, which means their product automatically undercuts the U.S product.
So after 10 years of begging China to play the game, Trump gets in and says FFluck it, if you won't play the game neither will we.
The problem China has, is they still haven't moved their whole economy over to first World, so still need to sell a lot of gear.
The U.S is still the biggest market place, but even the Chinese would prefer to buy made in Japan or made in U.S or made in Germany, than made in China.
So Trump has called their bluff, you want a trade war fine, bring it on and see your factories close, because no one will buy Chinese if they can buy anything else.
Or else get in the game and float you currency, which the Chinese don't want to do because they got burnt badly in the GFC by having a $hit load of U.S bonds.
They would prefer the World to move away from a currency based on the $US, which is understandable, because the U.S caused the GFC and saved themselves by devaluing their $US, which in turn made all other currencies higher and their exports more expensive.

I know it is a bit long winded, but I've been away for three months, so I'm starved of political debate. lol
I'm back, great holiday, fully recharged and ready to roll.

Therefore Darc Knight, why would you send Cinderalla into a street fight, I would rather send in Mike Tyson.
That is why Turnbull is in, Australia hadn't got to 0.09% interest, so they didn't like Abbott.
If we had got there Abbott would still be in. lol


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> Probably most people on here are over middle aged, that is probably why we don't get caught up in the warm feel good politically correct stuff.
> I'm not discussing Trump, with regard him marrying my daughter, or being whether I want him to be my BFF if that is what they say, I just want somebody to sort the $hit out.
> This is serious, in the U.S.A term deposits in 2017, were getting 0.09% on savings, that's not good in a capitalist system.
> Obama did nothing to sort the stalled monetary system, because he didn't want to confront the reality, the U.S is the biggest market place in the Western World it has to get moving.
> The reality is China has linked it currency to the U.S currency, and won't float it, which means their product automatically undercuts the U.S product.
> So after 10 years of begging China to play the game, Trump gets in and says FFluck it, if you won't play the game neither will we.
> The problem China has, is they still haven't moved their whole economy over to first World, so still need to sell a lot of gear.
> The U.S is still the biggest market place, but even the Chinese would prefer to buy made in Japan or made in U.S or made in Germany, than made in China.
> So Trump has called their bluff, you want a trade war fine, bring it on and see your factories close, because no one will buy Chinese if they can buy anything else.
> Or else get in the game and float you currency, which the Chinese don't want to do because they got burnt badly in the GFC by having a $hit load of U.S bonds.
> They would prefer the World to move away from a currency based on the $US, which is understandable, because the U.S caused the GFC and saved themselves by devaluing their $US, which in turn made all other currencies higher and their exports more expensive.
> 
> I know it is a bit long winded, but I've been away for three months, so I'm starved of political debate. lol
> I'm back, great holiday, fully recharged and ready to roll.
> 
> Therefore Darc Knight, why would you send Cinderalla into a street fight, I would rather send in Mike Tyson.
> That is why Turnbull is in, Australia hadn't got to 0.09% interest, so they didn't like Abbott.
> If we had got there Abbott would still be in. lol




 I agree that on some things Trump does have a subset of skills which are good for dealing with some circumstances, but overall I dont think he has the character and broader understanding to be President.
Trump is a master of smoke n mirrors, and B.S. We need to look beyond the surface with everything he does, as we need to with every dodegy person out there.

P.S. you wouldn't want to have Trump as a BFF??? Imagine all the inside information he would be able to pass on to you. You, along with his Family would be making a fortune.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> What a biased load of piffle...
> 
> The US has been taking it up the 455 for so long on all those issues for so long,  the left are no longer able to even think remotely critically.
> 
> Analysis bro,  use your brain.




Still in that echo chamber left/right has nothing to do with US foreign policy.......nothing.

US foreign policy dogma has been consistent for over 70+ years for good reason.

The world owns the US nothing it has only ever acted in its own interest which has benefited the US and the western world because it benefits the US.

No culture has dominated the world more than the US.

No country has made the wealth the US has ever.

Trump is a short term disaster disrupting this trend. 

Trump is a criminal.........lock him up (love that saying might get a tee shirt  )


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Still in that echo chamber left/right has nothing to do with US foreign policy.......nothing.
> 
> US foreign policy dogma has been consistent for over 70+ years for good reason.
> 
> The world owns the US nothing it has only ever acted in its own interest which has benefited the US and the western world because it benefits the US.
> 
> No culture has dominated the world more than the US.
> 
> No country has made the wealth the US has ever.
> 
> Trump is a short term disaster disrupting this trend.
> 
> Trump is a criminal.........lock him up (love that saying might get a tee shirt  )




Yes, until the next time, we need them to save our ar$e.


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> Still in that echo chamber left/right has nothing to do with US foreign policy.......nothing.
> 
> US foreign policy dogma has been consistent for over 70+ years for good reason.
> 
> The world owns the US nothing it has only ever acted in its own interest which has benefited the US and the western world because it benefits the US.
> 
> No culture has dominated the world more than the US.
> 
> No country has made the wealth the US has ever.
> 
> )




Right on. I would have thought the domination of the US economically and politically around the world and the value this returned the country was obvious. Trying to screw the rest of the world tighter and tighter to extract even more rent is not going to be a good look.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Right on. I would have thought the domination of the US economically and politically around the world and the value this returned the country was obvious. Trying to screw the rest of the world tighter and tighter to extract even more rent is not going to be a good look.




Might be good for Australia though, if the US is having trade wars with China and Europe then we can fill in some gaps in those markets.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Right on. I would have thought the domination of the US economically and politically around the world and the value this returned the country was obvious. Trying to screw the rest of the world tighter and tighter to extract even more rent is not going to be a good look.




Well we could tell them to sod off and wing it, maybe China would be nicer to us? Who knows?
But I know, from reading history and listening to my parents, when push came to shove it was the U.S that stopped the inevitable, like it or not.
I'm not saying we need to cow tow to any one, but you should be careful who you tell to get Flucked. IMO
Everyone is full of bravado and invincibility, until the $hit hits the fan, then they fold like a pack of cards.
People are so predictable, follow the sound, not the substance. LOL
It's like most fights in life, everyone backs you, until the real fight starts, then you find your real friends.
There are plenty of supporters, until it gets serious, then it becomes "I never said that". Lol
The world is full of would be's, if they could be's, it is really sad. IMO


----------



## PZ99

sptrawler said:


> Yes, until the next time, we need them to save our ar$e.



... whether we like it or not


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> Might be good for Australia though, if the US is having trade wars with China and Europe then we can fill in some gaps in those markets.



They will strike a deal and you know who the loser from the deal will be.


----------



## basilio

The big news in the US at the moment is Trumps decision to separate children from their families at borders. Coping serious flak from all quarters.  And as usual, all based on lies...

*The past 72 hours in outrage over Trump’s immigrant family separation policy, explained*

*Children are being kept in cages. Parents are being deported without their kids. Trump is wrongly blaming Democrats.*

The Trump administration’s policy of separating children from their parents who seek asylum in the United States by crossing the border illegally has sparked outrage across the country — and it reached a fever pitch over the weekend.

We got a glimpse of the cages kids are being kept in, read heart-wrenching stories of families being separated, and watched the Trump camp try to toss the political football of culpability to others.

President Trump tweeted Monday morning that the situation is Democrats’ fault for being “weak and ineffective” with border security and crime and said it’s time to “change the laws.” But this claim simply makes no sense. Contrary to what Trump seems to be implying, there was no preexisting law requiring family separation, and what’s happening at the border doesn’t have anything to do with Democrats — it’s a decision the Trump administration has made.

The administration recently implemented a “zero-tolerance” policy that includes separating children from their parents as they try to enter the United States seeking asylum at the US border, in what some say is an attempt to deter other potential migrants from making the same decision. The policy has sent shock waves around the country, igniting outrage on the part of immigration advocates, human rights groups, and citizens across the political spectrum. 

And the situation has the potential to get much worse: The Washington Examiner reported on Monday that the Trump administration could wind up holding some 30,000 illegal immigrant children by the end of the summer, citing a senior administration official with the Department of Health and Human Services. The HHS official told the publication 11,500 children were already being held.

Here’s an overview of what’s happened in the past 72 hours.
*We got a look at where children are being kept. It’s in cages. *
*https://www.vox.com/2018/6/18/17475292/family-separation-border-immigration-policy-trump*


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> *The past 72 hours in outrage over Trump’s immigrant family separation policy, explained*




Yep, not a good look alright.

Maybe the US should just buy Mexico, then there wouldn't be any border problem.


----------



## basilio

Came across this analysis of the Presidental power of self pardoning and how the US Constitution was argued and framed. Very interesting and well worth the read IMO.

*Robert Mueller won’t save us*
*Only Congress can decide if the president is above the law. *
By Sean Illing@seanillingsean.illing@vox.com   Jun 18, 2018, 8:00am EDT
     Share 
Is the president of the United States above the law?

The question seems ridiculous on its face. But the reality of President Donald Trump forces it upon us. The president is doing things that many assumed could not, or would not, be done. He seems to believe, among other things, that he has total control over the federal law enforcement apparatus, that he has the right to pardon himself, that he cannot obstruct justice, and that he cannot be subpoenaed or indicted for any crimes he might commit.


Some of this was contradicted more than a week ago, when White House press secretary Sarah Sanders dismissed questions about the president pardoning himself. “Thankfully, the president hasn’t done anything wrong and wouldn’t have any need for a pardon,” she said, adding that “no one is above the law.”

But let’s take the words of the president seriously. If he’s right — if he has absolute power to pardon himself from legal consequences for absolutely any wrongdoing — then we do not have a president; we have a monarch. And we are not, as John Adams once promised, “a government of laws, not of men.”

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/18/17433612/trump-mueller-congress-constitution-rule-of-law


----------



## DB008

Don't you love the left clutching at straws over the illegal immigrants and child separation going on in the USA at the moment.

The propaganda is in overdrive in the USA...

This image has gone viral on social media. 24 hours later the truth comes out...


----------



## SirRumpole

DB008 said:


> Don't you love the left clutching at straws over the illegal immigrants and child separation going on in the USA at the moment.
> 
> The propaganda is in overdrive in the USA...
> 
> This image has gone viral on social media. 24 hours later the truth comes out...
> 
> View attachment 87882​




Aside from the debate over Trump's policies, imo it should be mandatory to specify that an image or video has been altered if it is published.


----------



## DB008

SirRumpole said:


> imo it should be mandatory to specify that an image or video has been altered if it is published.




I agree 100%

But it won't happen.....


----------



## Junior

DB008 said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> But it won't happen.....




Are you saying the child separation isn't happening based on that one doctored image?  What about the video and images from the detention centre in Texas?


----------



## DB008

Junior said:


> Are you saying the child separation isn't happening based on that one doctored image? What about the video and images from the detention centre in Texas?




Junior - please don't misquote me....

This is what l had quoted from SirRumpole
*"it should be mandatory to specify that an image or video has been altered if it is published."*


----------



## basilio

Come on folks.. The* facts* are are that many thousands of children have been taken  from their parents and put in cages.  This figure will increase many fold  as this process is accelerated. 

The government has largely tried to hide this process but it has been established. https://www.google.com/search?q=Pic...AhWCxLwKHTB5B8MQ9QEIRDAG#imgrc=JaTBB_RvzXzcsM:

Just because someone replicated the  cage conditions to demonstrate how children are being treated by this government in no way changes what they doing.  Lets not lose sight of what is happening.

You can read the full story of the protest picture below and realise that Donald Trump screaming that this "fake news picture"  somehow exonerates him  is on par with every other piece of lying rubbish he sprouts. 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/18/us/photo-migrant-child-cage-trnd/index.html


----------



## DB008

What are they doing?
*Illegal* entry into a country

What do they expect will happen?


----------



## Junior

DB008 said:


> What are they doing?
> *Illegal* entry into a country
> 
> What do they expect will happen?




You have to draw a line somewhere, in terms of how the children are treated.


----------



## basilio

DB008 said:


> What are they doing?
> *Illegal* entry into a country
> 
> What do they expect will happen?




Humanity.. ?
_________________________
I came across Twitter account of a journalist who seems to be covering this story anmongst others. Worth a look.
https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud


----------



## PZ99

DB008 said:


> Don't you love the left clutching at straws over the illegal immigrants and child separation going on in the USA at the moment.
> 
> The propaganda is in overdrive in the USA...
> 
> This image has gone viral on social media. 24 hours later the truth comes out...
> 
> View attachment 87882​



Which one of those images is the truth?


----------



## DB008

How about applying through proper channels?

What gives them to right to jump the que??


----------



## SirRumpole

We think we are being swamped with refugees, but it's nothing to what is happening in the US.

Maybe some targetted foreign aid from the US towards those most likely to "defect" would save money in the long term in preference to these unsightly separation policies.


----------



## Junior

DB008 said:


> How about applying through proper channels?
> 
> What gives them to right to jump the que??




I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that these people are jumping the queue, breaking the law etc.

But that doesn't mean there should be no reasonable standards in terms of how they are dealt with and treated, particularly when they have children in tow.  

If you put yourselves in their shoes....they are seeking a better life for their family.  

Even though it involves breaking the law and taking significant risks, maybe you would do the same.  Hard to judge, in Australia we are all extremely fortunate that we don't need to consider such extreme measures.


----------



## wayneL

The truth is the facts have been waterboarded into submission just to suit an anti Trump agenda.

Check your fax, precedents, and history, before running off half cocked and virtue signalling over this


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> What are they doing?
> *Illegal* entry into a country
> 
> What do they expect will happen?




It's not "illegal".

They are seeking asylum, as in, filling in the paper works applying for permission. 

That is not illegal under international law.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> It's not "illegal".
> 
> They are seeking asylum, as in, filling in the paper works applying for permission.
> 
> That is not illegal under international law.




Anyone who is not making as much money as they want to can claim "refugee" status ?

There is no war going on in Mexico as far as I'm aware.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> We think we are being swamped with refugees, but it's nothing to what is happening in the US.
> 
> Maybe some targetted foreign aid from the US towards those most likely to "defect" would save money in the long term in preference to these unsightly separation policies.




Foreign aids are gifts to potential coup leaders, only a very small fraction of it are ever given to the poor and needy.

If the US don't want refugees knocking at their gates they should stop interfering in those country's government. Stop propping up only dictators who will open up their country's labour and resources for exploitation. Stop overthrowing gov't that want to use their country's resources for their own people.

Not long ago, the US, under NAFTA, properly flooded Mexican markets with US-subsidised ag. That drove practically all small time, mom and pop farming operations off their land. Made Mexico more dependent on US "aids" and imports than they need to. Sending those farmers across the borders, working on US farms illegally. 

Same with Mexican oil and energy riches. Discovered in the 70s, it was the make the Mexican rich beyond their imagination... opppss. 

The current s/American refugee crisis is just another result of the US getting back to work in its "backyard". It's been losing its grip and influence on the continent for a couple decades now. The Chinese are moving in... can't have that now can we?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Anyone who is not making as much money as they want to can claim "refugee" status ?
> 
> There is no war going on in Mexico as far as I'm aware.




Technically, yes. Under international law anyone can claim asylum, have their case heard when they seek it.

That doesn't mean their wanting to be rich will qualified.

The current wave aren't from Mexico, they're from other parts of S/America. 

I haven't look at what country specifically, but the US have been pretty busy down there, again, for a decade or so now.

There's a soft coup in Argentina, Brazil, Honduras, Colombia... Venezuela is being prepared.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Technically, yes. Under international law anyone can claim asylum, have their case heard when they seek it.
> 
> That doesn't mean their wanting to be rich will qualified.
> 
> The current wave aren't from Mexico, they're from other parts of S/America.
> 
> I haven't look at what country specifically, but the US have been pretty busy down there, again, for a decade or so now.
> 
> There's a soft coup in Argentina, Brazil, Honduras, Colombia... Venezuela is being prepared.



Yeah but why specifically the US? Or Australia? Or any of the other rich Western Nations they specifically target?

Why not other places congruent with their language,  religion,  culture etc?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Yeah but why specifically the US? Or Australia? Or any of the other rich Western Nations they specifically target?
> 
> Why not other places congruent with their language,  religion,  culture etc?




Maybe they believe that the US is that city on the hill. All bright, shiny and full of justice and equality.

That or practically all other S/American countries are suffering from the same fate. Been made into Banana Republics with land sold off to foreign corporations to more productively exploit. 

Most of the world's refugees flee to their nearest neighbours. That's just a fact. You can look it up.

It's only a handful, a big handful because there are so many of them now, but a small fraction of them that managed to get to Western countries. 

Like I quoted before, there are some 2 million refugees in Lebanon. That's about half its population. Most from Palestine, a large increase from Syria, Iraq recently.

There's about 1M in Iran. Fleeing from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's even Syrian refugees in Iraq, fleeing the flare up in Syria. 

Do we see any 6 digit refugees/"migrants" knocking at Western countries' gates? 

What country are most able to help refugees? The Western ones or those impoverished, war torn ones?

US Col Wilkinson, from memory, said that some years ago the US estimate that there are about 60million climate change refugees around the world a year. That's per year.

No freaking great wall of America is going to stop that. Not when the climate and the bombs work together like it's happening.


----------



## wayneL

Classic Grasshopper sophistry. 

Where are these 60 million cc refugees?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, not a good look alright.
> 
> Maybe the US should just buy Mexico, then there wouldn't be any border problem.




I think he's just bringing back the Johnson-Reed Act, but expanding the scope to exclude predominantly roman catholic Latins. Good for blacks and anglo protestants


----------



## basilio

It's always fascinating to see how the conservative media sources reconstruct reality to justify something truly awful ie splitting up families attempting to gain asylum in the US.

1) The Drudge Reports take.

All-caps lead story slot with the headline “BORDER BATTLE: USA TAKING IN 250 KIDS PER DAY”. Next to the story was a photo of young children holding guns, implying that the children separated from their parents are gun-toting criminals.

*The children in the photo were not traumatised minors who crossed the US-Mexico border with their parents.* They weren’t even from Central America – they were Syrians. The photo had been taken in Syria in 2012 by photojournalist Christiaan Triebert, and was a blatantly misleading attempt to try to find some way to make the border policy seem legitimate.

https://boingboing.net/2018/06/18/drudge-report-uses-2012-photo.html

2)  Conservative Columinst  Ann Coulter reckons the toddlers weeping and wailing about being taken from their parents at the borders "are just child actors".  "Don't be deceived Donald"
http://thehill.com/homenews/media/392774-ann-coulter-calls-immigrant-children-child-actors

3) Rush Limburg gets in on the act of familes being pulled apart by noting that *Paul Manfort*, (who broke his bail conditions by contacting witnesses...) i*s being separated from his family* ie sent to jail. Yep that really is almost the same as taking kids off parents who are trying to seek asalyum
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/06/15/the-swamp-strikes-back-manafort-separated-from-family/

4) Fox News commentator Jesse waters decided that   he should join the dots between Donald Trump Jnr  Ivanaka and the families being separated at US borders.

 *Andrew Lawrence*‏ @*ndrew_lawrence*

_Jesse Watters: They want to lock up Eric. They want to lock up Don Jr and they want to lock up Ivanka and they've done nothing wrong. And now they're upset bc illegal alien families are being broken up? Please_

Clever ? Just desperately stoopid.  But hey- the bar for believing desperately stoopid xhit from Fox hasn't risen from the floor yet.

Anyone else seen more mad ways to distract or justify the decision to set up childrens prisons on the US borders ?


----------



## basilio

Of course the real facts are that these border kids are NOT being put in cages and dragged away from their parents "never to be seen again "..

Nope.. They are going to* Summer Camp* ! 

*Laura Ingraham Calls Child Detention Centers 'Essentially Summer Camps,' Slams 'Faux Liberal Outrage'*
http://www.newsweek.com/laura-ingra...centers-essentially-summer-camps-slams-982913


----------



## wayneL

Ah yes.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Classic Grasshopper sophistry.
> 
> Where are these 60 million cc refugees?




Couldn't find the interview now.

On The Real News Network. Interviewing US Col. Larry Wilkerson on climate change and national security. 

Though I shouldn't put the blame on Wilkerson since I might have hearing problems. But pretty sure I heard it right... that according to estimates he saw from US national security documents, 65 million people around the world are already displaced each year from the impact of CC. 

Where are they? 

From the UNHCR, 85% of refugees are goes to under-developed countries nearby. With 40 million internally displaced. e.g. moving from one drought region to the city for example.

Latest figures from the UN:

That 65.6M I'm sure was not what Wilkerson was referring to. This one includes all refugees, from wars and conflicts rather than CC.









MORE
http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/climate-change-and-disasters.html
"Since 2009, an *estimated one person every second has been displaced by a disaster*, with an average of 22.5 million people displaced by climate- or weather-related events since 2008 (IDMC 2015)."



"
Tens of millions of people will be forced from their homes by climate change in the next decade, creating the biggest refugee crisis the world has ever seen, according to a new report.

*Senior US military and security experts *have told the Environmental Justice Foundation (EJF) study that the number of climate refugees will dwarf those that have fled the Syrian conflict, bringing huge challenges to Europe.

“If Europe thinks they have a problem with migration today … wait 20 years,” said retired US military corps brigadier general Stephen Cheney. “See what happens when climate change drives people out of Africa – the Sahel [sub-Saharan area] especially – and we’re talking now not just one or two million, but 10 or 20 [million]. They are not going to south Africa, they are going across the Mediterranean.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nge-will-create-worlds-biggest-refugee-crisis


----------



## PZ99

wayneL said:


> Ah yes.




Nice find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_v._Flores


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> What are they doing?
> *Illegal* entry into a country
> 
> What do they expect will happen?




Well DB008, if we do what everyone wants, we would save a $hit load on boarder protection. Let alone training sniffer dogs, what's the down side?

Just say Fluck it anyone who wants to come, hey if you think it's better here, just head on in Bros. No prob, plenty for all, give me some skin bro. Its all good Bro no problemo.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Ah yes.





The Reno-Flores case seems to apply to unaccompanied minors, whereas the recent arrivals appear to be families that are split up.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be more court cases before the issue is resolved.


----------



## wayneL

They are only enforcing a law passed by Democrats


----------



## wayneL

And again

Check out @SargonOfAkkad_3’s Tweet:


----------



## moXJO

Trump didn't make these laws. Bush and Obama had kids in detention as well. This is another ruse from the dems. Pin it on Trump.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump has reversed his family separation policy. On ABC News.

He said he never liked it.

I'm sure his supporters here will agree profusely with him once again. 


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...cutive-order-ending-family-separation/9892042


----------



## moXJO

moXJO said:


> Trump didn't make these laws. Bush and Obama had kids in detention as well. This is another ruse from the dems. Pin it on Trump.



No this is wrong on further inspection. 

Trump changed how he prosecuted the parents and this caused the separation. His own party wouldn't back it and thats why he couldn't get laws through and blamed the dems.


----------



## PZ99

SirRumpole said:


> Trump has reversed his family separation policy. On ABC News.
> 
> He said he never liked it.
> 
> I'm sure his supporters here will agree profusely with him once again.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...cutive-order-ending-family-separation/9892042



Gotta give credit where it's due I guess. 

Either he backed down or was held to account. I suspect the latter.


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> Gotta give credit where it's due I guess.
> 
> Either he backed down or was held to account. I suspect the latter.




I think he's just drawing attention to himself, although if you wanted to put the spotlight on your enemies, use one of their decrees and show your humility and pliability in defeat.


----------



## McLovin

moXJO said:


> No this is wrong on further inspection.
> 
> Trump changed how he prosecuted the parents and this caused the separation. His own party wouldn't back it and thats why he couldn't get laws through and blamed the dems.




Yeah. Children were being sent by their parents to America in 2014. That is, they arrived, at the border, unaccompanied. Today they're criminally prosecuting parents who arrive at the border with children which ends in the removal of children from their parents.

Anyway, this Trump decision (and then reversal) has about as much conviction as everything else he does.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> They are only enforcing a law passed by Democrats





Heard that under Obama, only the father are separated from their children. The mother stays with the kids. That's not nice either, but not as bad as Trump and Sessions farked up policy. I mean, taking kids as young as 1 away from their parents? What an a-hole.

But yea, Obama deport more "illegals" than any president before him. 

I guess US farmers can mechanise their farms more cheaply so who needs slave labour anymore.


----------



## luutzu

PZ99 said:


> Gotta give credit where it's due I guess.
> 
> Either he backed down or was held to account. I suspect the latter.




He backed down because the plebs are not putting up with it. 

That and it only affect a few "non-profit" prison operators anyway. They don't have that much financial power to lobby so it's alright.

Heard from Seymore Hersh that Trump just lowered the safety standard for baby cots. Why? Wouldn't that put American infants at risk? Mehhh...


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> No this is wrong on further inspection.
> 
> Trump changed how he prosecuted the parents and this caused the separation. His own party wouldn't back it and thats why he couldn't get laws through and blamed the dems.




Nice one..Well summarised.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> He backed down because the plebs are not putting up with it.
> 
> That and it only affect a few "non-profit" prison operators anyway. They don't have that much financial power to lobby so it's alright.
> 
> Heard from Seymore Hersh that Trump just lowered the safety standard for baby cots. Why? Wouldn't that put American infants at risk? Mehhh...



No not plebs,  just snowflakes and cultural vandals. 

BTW, one of my racing clients has moved to New Jersey and wants me to go there too... and godammit,  I could gross twice as much as as here, with lower expenses and taxes. 

How do ya reckon I'd go as a dryback? You know,  open borders an' all that.


----------



## Junior

Interesting piece.

https://www.gq.com/story/why-trump-supporters-love-calling-people-snowflakes



> If branding the political opposition with a nickname is a longstanding tradition, it’s also one that almost inevitably backfires. A group united by an offensive label is still united: it’s only a matter of flipping the name into a self-identifier. “Tory,” and “Whig” are both political party names that rose out of insults. The “Sans-culottes” during the French revolution likewise re-appropriated an insult about their lack of britches into a point of anti-elitist pride. From queers to suffragettes to impressionist painters, terms meant to deride become a catchy point of pride, a snarky acknowledgement of appealing underdog status that galvanizes membership. People who thought Hillary Clinton was referring to them as “deplorable” put it in their Twitter names; women who related when Trump called Clinton a “nasty woman” responded by emblazoning the phrase on their t-shirts. The only way to fight back against an insult that doesn’t mean anything is to reclaim it, to diminish its power by making that identity a point of pride. This is the life cycle of all identity insults, and “snowflake” is already reaching the end of that cycle.
> 
> There’s a slogan among Trump protesters that’s become increasingly common on protest signs. “Damn right we’re snowflakes,” the signs read. “And winter is coming.”


----------



## PZ99

wayneL said:


> No not plebs,  just snowflakes and cultural vandals.
> 
> BTW, one of my racing clients has moved to New Jersey and wants me to go there too... and godammit,  I could gross twice as much as as here, with lower expenses and taxes.
> 
> How do ya reckon I'd go as a dryback? You know,  open borders an' all that.



That's easy. Just say argo


----------



## basilio

Junior said:


> Interesting piece.
> 
> https://www.gq.com/story/why-trump-supporters-love-calling-people-snowflakes





That is a particularly interesting article. The extract you copied is on the ball but the rest makes the point about the use of derogative labels as putdowns and  a way to dismiss any argument you disagree with.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> That is a particularly interesting article. The extract you copied is on the ball but the rest makes the point about the use of derogative labels as putdowns and  a way to dismiss any argument you disagree with.



Umm,  like Nazi? 
Fascist? 
Racist? 
White supremacist?
Mysoginist? 
Islamophobe? 
Homophobe? 
Transphobe? 
Alt right? 
Far right? 

Have I left any out?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> No not plebs,  just snowflakes and cultural vandals.
> 
> BTW, one of my racing clients has moved to New Jersey and wants me to go there too... and godammit,  I could gross twice as much as as here, with lower expenses and taxes.
> 
> How do ya reckon I'd go as a dryback? You know,  open borders an' all that.




wait... So the US is over run with "migrants", its borders are porous, no great wall yet etc. But you will somehow earn twice as much there as here in Australia?

Seem refugees doesn't negatively affect certain industry, if any. 

I'd have those "cultural vandals" over patriots like Trump and Obama any day.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> wait... So the US is over run with "migrants", its borders are porous, no great wall yet etc. But you will somehow earn twice as much there as here in Australia?
> 
> Seem refugees doesn't negatively affect certain industry, if any.
> 
> I'd have those "cultural vandals" over patriots like Trump and Obama any day.



Oh jeez you missed it Grasshopper. 

Obama IS a cultural vandal, along with most of the current iteration of what is regarded as the left. 

I'll take Trump and the patriots thanks.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Oh jeez you missed it Grasshopper.
> 
> Obama IS a cultural vandal, along with most of the current iteration of what is regarded as the left.
> 
> I'll take Trump and the patriots thanks.




A lot of people on the left might be offended if you grouped them in with Obama. I know I would be.

As to cultural vandals. That kind of depends on the kind of cultural heritage you want to keep doesn't it?

Slavery was American as apple pie about a century ago. Segregation... There are things you just don't want to keep. It doesn't make you a vandal, it move the country forward.

Jesus man, Trump and his admin is destroying American lives, literally, and destroying its image more than any crazed terrorist ever dreamed they could do.

There's the trade war with practically every major economy you care to name. 

With China, Trump promised Apple's products will be exempt from the tariffs. Because I supposed Americans can't do without their iPhones... so got to keep that cheap.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Oh jeez you missed it Grasshopper.
> 
> Obama IS a cultural vandal, along with most of the current iteration of what is regarded as the left.
> 
> I'll take Trump and the patriots thanks.




You know the old saying about patriots I'm sure ?

Besides which I thought you said you lent to the Left ?

Trump is so far the other way he should be out of site to you.


----------



## wayneL

Paul Watson nails it


----------



## Tink

I have said from day one, especially the Greens, are anti family, anti children.

You have forgotten the word - bigot.
The word they throw around to silence people.
---

_Faith, Family, Truth and Freedom._


----------



## Tink

*US pulls out of UN Human Rights Council*

Remaining 46 countries on UN Human Rights Council:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, Ethiopia, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Nigeria, Rwanda, Senegal, South Africa, Togo, Tunisia

Asia/Pacific: Australia, China, Japan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, South Korea

Europe: Belgium, Croatia, Georgia, Germany, Hungary, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom

Latin America/Caribbean: Brazil, Chile, Cuba, Ecuador, Mexico, Panama, Peru, Venezuela

Middle East: Afghanistan, Iraq, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-20/us-pulls-out-of-united-nations-human-rights-council/9888906


----------



## Darc Knight

First lady Melania Trump wore a jacket with the words, "I really don't care, do u?", written on its back as she boarded a flight to a facility housing migrant children separated from their parents.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...ld-immigration-detention-centre-texas/9897146

Interesting.


----------



## PZ99

By pulling out of the UN Human Rights Council the US are obligated to pull their troops out of any of those countries as well.

The UN should no longer pay for, or partake in any US hostility.

If the US cops another 911 style attack they are on their own.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Paul Watson nails it





Yea, he nailed it like the Romans nailed Jesus to the cross.

So the "liberals" doesn't care when Obama and the democrats did it, Watson's argument goes, let's not give a shiet now.

That's a good argument to make. War criminals and freaking psychos love that crap.

So... since nobody help the Jews in concentration camps where they were gassed, why are they now all high and mighty about the Palestinians being in concentration camps and starved, bombed, killed slowly.

Nobody cares about slavery before, why the outrage against modern day slavery and exploitation.

anyway, the world as seen through idiots like this is an ugly place.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> First lady Melania Trump wore a jacket with the words, "I really don't care, do u?", written on its back as she boarded a flight to a facility housing migrant children separated from their parents.
> 
> http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...ld-immigration-detention-centre-texas/9897146
> 
> Interesting.




They can wear anything and it'd still say "we don't give a shiet".


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Yea, he nailed it like the Romans nailed Jesus to the cross.
> 
> So the "liberals" doesn't care when Obama and the democrats did it, Watson's argument goes, let's not give a shiet now.
> 
> That's a good argument to make. War criminals and freaking psychos love that crap.
> 
> So... since nobody help the Jews in concentration camps where they were gassed, why are they now all high and mighty about the Palestinians being in concentration camps and starved, bombed, killed slowly.
> 
> Nobody cares about slavery before, why the outrage against modern day slavery and exploitation.
> 
> anyway, the world as seen through idiots like this is an ugly place.



Lol, emotive argument, a fallacy I'm sure has a name.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Lol, emotive argument, a fallacy I'm sure has a name.




How was it emotive?

The dude's entire argument was that... well, "the left" didn't care when Obama/Clinton did it... So why do they care now. They only care because they want power, because Trump did it.

i.e. because they didn't care before and because they fake all these tears, we too shouldn't give a crap. 

One of the flaws in that argument, in addition to being morally bankrupt, is strawmaning. 

The democrat politicians do not represent "the left". Those who are protesting aren't all democrats or hippies.


----------



## wayneL

Your ideology caused you to miss the point Grasshopper.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Your ideology caused you to miss the point Grasshopper.




And what would we say about a person who uses the hate speech of Paul Watson as a referance ? Luutzu nailed it

   "anyway, the world as seen through idiots like this is an ugly place."


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Your ideology caused you to miss the point Grasshopper.




So what was the point?

And don't tell me it was to save the children. Tough love and all that.


----------



## wayneL

Ahhh,  hate speech. I was waiting for one of the cultural Marxist buzz words to pop up.

Exactly who was Mr Watson preaching hate against? Pointing out the monumental hypocrisy of the left in America does not constitute hate, basilio

Yet Fonda proposes a child is yanked from his mother and given over to be raped by pedophiles,  and that the children of govt agents should be targeted,  the left just shrugs.

That is hate speech basilio.

In yet another disgusting irony,  despite a clear contravention of their terms,  Twitter does...  absolutely nothing.

Too busy deplatforming ordinary conservatives I guess.

The putrifaction of leftist thought is a disgrace.


----------



## SirRumpole

The White House publicity team fails again.

Personally I think Melania does care, she may well have been the deciding factor in getting Donald to reverse his decision on family separations, but what was she thinking wearing that jacket ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ld-immigration-detention-centre-texas/9897146


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> The White House publicity team fails again.
> 
> Personally I think Melania does care, she may well have been the deciding factor in getting Donald to reverse his decision on family separations, but what was she thinking wearing that jacket ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ld-immigration-detention-centre-texas/9897146




No she doesn't.

She sued some non-profit organisation in, from memory, her home country because they use her photo in an ad encouraging kids to learn English. 

Misuse of her image, her lawyer says. Can't encourage kids to learn and not pay her for the copy rights dude.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Misuse of her image, her lawyer says. Can't encourage kids to learn and not pay her for the copy rights dude.




Maybe they used it without asking her first. If they did ask she may well have said yes.

Given the hysteria generated by anti refugee sentiments by her husband it showed some guts to run counter to that imo.

If you would care to post some links about Melania's law suit, that would be good, I can't find any.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they used it without asking her first. If they did ask she may well have said yes.
> 
> Given the hysteria generated by anti refugee sentiments by her husband it showed some guts to run counter to that imo.
> 
> If you would care to post some links about Melania's law suit, that would be good, I can't find any.





https://www.cbsnews.com/news/melania-trump-threatens-lawsuit-over-english-class-billboard/

The company wasn't non-profit, my bad. 

Yea, they use her image without permission, or royalty. Can't have that. 

I read that she said she plan to use her image as First Lady to make money [not her exact word ]... so she can't have people using it. 

Man, she should know that that's the old way to make money out of this WH gig. You gotta get a title with some influence in it. Like "Senior Adviser"... That way, you'd pulled in an easy $100M a year while Trump is the president.

Wait til later and it's too late.


----------



## basilio

With regard to the separation and imprisonment of US aslyum seekers which has cause such grief to the families and the US public. Could there be a simpler, cheaper and just as effective measure to make sure these people are brought to a court for their hearing ?

In fact .. yes there certainly is. So what is the thinking behind mass separations of families in very expensive detention centers with all the drama that has bee created ?

*In border controversy, U.S. ignores tech alternative to detention centers*

*




*
*Wearing an ankle monitor bracelet, a woman who identified herself as Jennifer sits at the Catholic Charities Humanitarian Respite Center after recently crossing the U.S.-Mexico border on June 21, 2018, in McAllen, Texas.*


* Getty *


The U.S. government may have a more humane and cost-effective tech alternative to detaining families at the border. But it isn't being offered to the thousands of immigrant families that have been forcibly split over the past two months.

At least not yet.
*The majority of undocumented immigrants detained by border patrol agents are enrolled in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's "Alternative to Detention" program, which uses technology to keep track of people instead of physically detaining them.*
Since the pilot program kicked off in 2004, these techniques allowed for tracking through ankle bracelets, phone check-ins with voice recognition software and a mobile app. It meant that families could stay together rather than in a detention center.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united...ion-centers-immigration-trump-administration/


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> No she doesn't.
> 
> She sued some non-profit organisation in, from memory, her home country because they use her photo in an ad encouraging kids to learn English.
> 
> Misuse of her image, her lawyer says. Can't encourage kids to learn and not pay her for the copy rights dude.



Smear smear smear. 

Wanna tell us about the Clinton Foundation?


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Smear smear smear.
> 
> Wanna tell us about the Clinton Foundation?




I'm no fan of Clintons, or any political party.

It's not smear. Still true that she doesn't give a crap.

Turning up for a photo op is not genuine concern. 

Elanor Roosevelt... now that's a First Lady that gives a dam.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> I'm no fan of Clintons, or any political party.
> 
> It's not smear. Still true that she doesn't give a crap.
> 
> Turning up for a photo op is not genuine concern.
> 
> Elanor Roosevelt... now that's a First Lady that gives a dam.



Yeah but that was the good old days, grasshopper.

You know, before the Democrats were all marxists.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> You know, before the Democrats were all marxists.




LOL. A bit of trolling there I think.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Yeah but that was the good old days, grasshopper.
> 
> You know, before the Democrats were all marxists.




You do realise that Roosevelt's policies were Marxist right?

Capitalists crashed the US, and the world, economy. Millions were homeless, no jobs programe, no welfare benefits.

Roosevelt put those in place. Regulate the banks and investment companies etc.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> You do realise that Roosevelt's policies were Marxist right?
> 
> Capitalists crashed the US, and the world, economy. Millions were homeless, no jobs programe, no welfare benefits.
> 
> Roosevelt put those in place. Regulate the banks and investment companies etc.



No they weren't Marxist, but yes they were a collectivist solution, which was actually a very poor one.

They,  essentially retarded the US economy, only to be finally activated by ww2 and the baby boom.

Read some of Von Mises Institute analysis of the period... Roosevelt f***ed up.


----------



## SirRumpole

More fake news ?

Refugee children allegedly injected with drugs to keep them quiet.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...dren-in-texas-centre-forcibly-drugged/9898298


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> No they weren't Marxist, but yes they were a collectivist solution, which was actually a very poor one.
> 
> They,  essentially retarded the US economy, only to be finally activated by ww2 and the baby boom.
> 
> Read some of Von Mises Institute analysis of the period... Roosevelt f***ed up.






Sure he screwed up. 

That's why before his regulation there were market collapses every few years; during his New Deal and regulation the US saw its best days - for everyone; after it was deregulated and "free market" reign, the US is back to market collapses, rising wealth inequality, half the country more; 20% in poverty. Drug epidemic, rising suicide among White Americans.. level not seen since the Civil War and WWII.

But sure, Bush Jr.'s, Obama's, Trump's tax cuts will save the day. Third time lucky.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Sure he screwed up.




Actually, there is some research around that says he did.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Actually, there is some research around that says he did.
> 
> http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409




No. That was when he first took office and tried the now fashionable belt tightening/austerity measure.

That made it worst. Yes. 

But with WWII forced on them, massive gov't stimulus and jobs program boosted the economy. etc. 

Then come regulation, more stimulus under successive administration. Such as the interstate highways, space programs etc.


----------



## wayneL

For your edification Grasshoppers:

https://mises.org/library/how-fdr-made-depression-worse


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> For your edification Grasshoppers:
> 
> https://mises.org/library/how-fdr-made-depression-worse




That's another "alternate" sets of facts and misinterpretation of history. 

If it weren't for FDR's Marxist/Socialist policies, American democracy would have collapsed about the time Hitler took over democratic Germany. 

These neoCon idiots don't know what it was that gave America its golden age. No, A Golden Age is not when greed is good and obscene wealth is gooder.

The current two generations of Americans will see their standard of living lower than that of their parents. And you cannot tell me that that's because there's more regulation and Marxism.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> South Koreans want to unite with a guy that murders his own family and throws tens of thousands of its citizens into slavery and hunger ?
> 
> Yeah, right.




Well you posted that on June 13th, what 10 days ago, if only our politicians had a much effect. lol
Unfortunately Rumpy, Trump seems to have caused another good outcome, how dare he, who the hell does he think he is?

http://time.com/5319627/north-south-korea-family-reunite/

It all sounds a bit familiar, the Left bag him and the outcomes keep coming.
Sounds a bit like silly billy, to me, just because the media say it will never happen, doesn't mean everyone has to parrot it.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Well unfortunately Rumpy, Trump seems to have caused another good outcome, how dare he, who the hell does he think he is?




Trump is used to the idea that a signature means a binding agreement. He doesn't seem to realise that he's dealing with a psycho.

But anyway, if it works, good on him.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Trump is used to the idea that a signature means a binding agreement. He doesn't seem to realise that he's dealing with a psycho.
> 
> But anyway, if it works, good on him.




Yep, the last thing the left will do, is give credit where credit is due.

Much easier to sit back, and ponce around, with no positive input, and then blame everyone else for any failure.
Jeez it would be funny, if it wasn't so repetitious.


----------



## explod

Repeating myself, but Trump is a salesman through and through, trained to make a quid.

Twisting or exaggerating is right up the salesman's alley, just got to get that commission.

In fact the Vikings are painted as terror monger killers.  They were in fact the world's first good trader sailsmen, going from port to port moving wares and good relations, opening up new markets and spreading genes into nutcases such as myself.  Probably a bit of Viking in Trumpy too, looking at the hair and fair skin lol.


----------



## Triathlete

SirRumpole said:


> Personally I think Melania does care, she may well have been the deciding factor in getting Donald to reverse his decision on family separations, but what was she thinking wearing that jacket ?







Donald J. Trump
17 hrs ·


“I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, *refers to the Fake News Media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are, and she truly no longer cares!*


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> Repeating myself, but Trump is a salesman through and through, trained to make a quid.
> 
> Twisting or exaggerating is right up the salesman's alley, just got to get that commission.
> 
> In fact the Vikings are painted as terror monger killers.  They were in fact the world's first good trader sailsmen, going from port to port moving wares and good relations, opening up new markets and spreading genes into nutcases such as myself.  Probably a bit of Viking in Trumpy too, looking at the hair and fair skin lol.




Unfortunately explod, as you should well know, from your working background.
Sometimes turning the other cheek, just results in another slap.

Maybe trump calling rocket man to account, actually made him listen, rather than begging him as the others have done. Who knows?

From my personal experience in life, if I stood there and took a beating, there was always someone willing to dish another one out. It's now called bullying.

We in the west have become so politically correct, we have lost the ability to defend our dignity, we are so self deprecating we agree with any aspersions made against us.
Maybe Trump is saying, what we all feel should be said, but don't because we have been conditioned to piss on ourselves.


----------



## Triathlete

Maybe Dennis Rodman was right and the Obama administration had a chance to have talks back in their time but insisted on not negotiating or talking one on one....Chairman Kim only had one option as I see it and that was to develop the nukes capable of hitting the US and with this option he had a chance at getting to the table with the US and looks like it worked only time will tell how far this meeting with Trump and what happens on the Korean Peninsular has any lasting benefits at least it is a start ....I am sure China had a hand in making this happen as well.........He may also think that if he does not take a different direction that his dynasty will not survive into the future but who knows.......Regimes such as these only understand force not political correct B.S..........


----------



## wayneL

This is why the left is in trouble,  why conservative thought is undergoing a renaissance,  and yes,  why the *real far right is gaining strength.

More and more the left is being busted for its toxic, misrepresentative,  and sometimes dowright mendacious narrative

...and Time magazine just got busted big time.


----------



## basilio

We have to go way back in History to find a realistic comparison to Donald Trump. This Twitter account is quite droll.  

https://twitter.com/donaeldunready

 *Greatest King Donaeld The Unready of Mercia*‏ @*donaeldunready* Jun 21


Loser serfflakes don't understand that being locked up in Chester slave market with their children is EXACTLY what the soggy Welsh want. But because I'm such a Mercia-ful king (the most) I'll let them have some pottage.


----------



## IFocus

So Trump is a lying cretin (criminal) even his own wife trolls him, the press call him out and the snowflakes start squealing how unfair/bias it all is.....funny old world at the moment.


----------



## SirRumpole

I came across this on another forum and found it interesting.

From an Aussie living in the US.



> Should I stay in Australia? I moved from the US to Australia with my new fiance, but I am not happy here.
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny Sanders
> Updated Jun 14
> I'm not going to sugar coat this. I'm an Australian forced to live in the USA for now and finally returning home next year after 18 long years in the USA. I never planned to stay this long and never thought I'd hate it so much. Dad is an American and growing up I thought the USA was "cool." Before you read my rant, please know I believed I would love it here. Alas, it's a **** hole. Read on and grasp the reality of what this place is you are missing.
> 
> Outside of places like China I can’t believe the third-world mentality of the USA. You’ve got an entire HUGE subculture of people here (hunters) who constantly wear blaze orange and strut around wearing camo gear while broadcasting the photos of animals’ heads they blow off constantly on Facebook and such. So many disgusting cold-hearted people to do those things to animals and it’s precisely the reason that I am moving back to Australia because those people sicken me. Why don’t we take it a step further and talk about your country and its supposed Christian values and why you let people die constantly daily because you don’t want to give them health care because, and I quote, “I shouldn’t be responsible for someone else and their healthcare.” Disgusting. What your people FAIL to realize is the fact that universal health care saves everyone thousands and thousands of dollars a year while covering everyone. They would know this if they allowed themselves to be (gasp) EDUCATED. People have to burn out in the same garbage job for DECADES and can't even try going into business for themselves because they can't afford the health care. Las Vegas has cocktail servers in their eighties that can't retire or their savings would be burned through in no time! No one cares. It's all me me me me me me me.
> 
> Why don’t we talk about your archaic gun laws that allow morons and psychos and children ready access to heavy duty firearms by the dozens? No civilized country on the face of the earth or government would allow such things. Because of your disgusting laws, people including CHILDREN are dying by the thousands daily and you have the reputation for excessive violence above every other country. But nooooooo, we neeed our semi- automatics handy alllllllll the time! Let’s also talk about your attorneys and the fact that they can take 40% and they’re allowed to advertise on TV so therefore everybody at any given time is always looking to sue their neighbor, their friends, their co-worker, their colleague, your fellow man and on and on and on it goes and creates a true **** storm.
> 
> Why don’t we talk about the maniac Trump when he voted AGAINST a trophy hunting ban Obama imposed so now animal trophies can be imported! His own two sons are trophy hunters! Gee, not corrupt much there. And why don’t we talk about the appalling lack of education and the fact that all your money goes to military rather than educating the people and that’s precisely why that pig got into the government in the first place. Onto war now. When we were kicking back having beers in Australia back in the day, you guys were slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands in a war between the north and the south because your southerners insisted on keeping slaves. Nice history there.
> 
> Why don’t we talk about the multiple hate groups across your **** hole country including the KKK, Aryan Union etc etc. Think about it. Your country makes it OK for hate groups to thrive! Bible thumpers talk about being anti-abortion and make their point by blowing up planned parenthood clinics and killing doctors. Nothing says pro-life like murdering folks, huh. Why don’t we talk about the constant bickering between the left and the right and blah blah blah blah blah. The mudslinging, the racism, the hatred amongst your own people is appalling. Let’s talk about the lobby groups to pay off the politicians so everything stays just as it is. Did you know America is the only country where it’s legal for politicians to take bribes? Yes to the point that the pharmaceutical companies have fixed that the medication is so expensive old people and poor people are forced to order it overseas. And then if that’s not enough when they get caught trying to do that because they’re desperate to survive they get threatened with jail! Absolutely that’s a sign of a civilized country to throw their pensioners and poor in prison for trying to stay alive.
> 
> And regarding education, it’s awesome that the only way people can get an education if they’re not filthy rich is by getting in hundreds and thousands of dollars in debt that they’re forced to pay off and all the while they’re trying to get their start in life and buy a home and do those other things but they struggle with doing that because if they don’t pay off the loan straight away it goes straight on their credit report so they’re screwed. Awesome. Way to keep the people down. I think it’s great the people have to work for nine dollars an hour over a 20-year period. Meanwhile inflation is through the roof. This is the only western country I know where the minimum wage is set below the poverty line. America has MILLIONS of working poor, companies like Walmart taking over and putting everyone out of business etc. Yay for corporate America. But let’s not take care of the American people and let’s continue to go overseas and shove your nose in everybody else’s damn business.
> 
> I love the fact that even your bread is so chockablock full of preservatives so it stays fresh for weeks because after all that’s the only way they won’t be any wastage because wastage costs money after all and money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money is what the USA is all about and that’s all that matters to the people who live there. AND congratulations on being the ONLY country on the face of the earth to back out of the Paris accord and deny climate change. Yes that’s right. Syria is at war and even they saw the light and signed the agreement. What’s disgusting is there are 300+ million of you people populating the earth and doing far less to protect the environment than pretty much anyone else as you still allow styrofoam you don’t believe in recycling and you deny climate change!!!! You don’t push for public transport improvement and you designed a country that forces you to have a car to go absolutely everywhere for the most part and all those fumes contribute to polluting the skies.
> 
> Your crappy country and my life here has taught me how very very very blessed I am to be from Australia and when I arrive there next year I will kiss the ground, I will eat the dirt, I will laugh in the sunshine and I will never ever ever ever ever set foot in your hell hole ever again. The real thing that makes me sad about your post, is how you fail to understand what a wonderful opportunity you've been blessed with. I wish one of the millions of Americans struggling with the above issues directly could trade places with you, someone that would appreciate the beauty and wonderful society that is Australia. I'm not wishing this on you, but I feel like you need to get sick and bankrupt from medical expenses or maybe one of your kids gets their head blown off in school. Or maybe someone sues you over a fender bender and ruins your future. Maybe then you'd get it. I'll share with you, if you want kids and you choose to raise them in the USA, knowing all that goes on I just mentioned, rather than a comparative Utopia that is Australia, I question what kind of parent you really would be as there's absolutely no comparison where's the safest, nicest place to raise a family. Maybe you care more about the materialism, the superficiality, who knows. I beg of you, if you have them, let them grow up with HEALTHCARE, QUALITY EDUCATION THEY CAN AFFORD, AND THE CHANCE TO GO TO SCHOOL WITHOUT GETTING A BULLET IN THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!
> 
> NOTE- Thank you to John R. Harris for having the patience to edit this. I talk text almost exclusively when compiling long essays such as these. As a result, my internet "blurbs" and such are frequently fraught with errors. May I be granted the patience of yourself one day, good sir. Cheers.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> So Trump is a lying cretin (criminal) even his own wife trolls him, the press call him out and the snowflakes start squealing how unfair/bias it all is.....funny old world at the moment.



I think your idea of criminality is upside down komrade


----------



## DB008

Hmm..l'm not surprised...


*CNN, MSNBC look away as Trump hosts families of*
*victims killed by illegal immigrants*​President Donald Trump hosted families who lost loved ones to crimes committed by illegal immigrants. CNN and MSNBC cut their coverage of the White House event shortly after Trump accused the media of ‘overlooking’ the families.

Trump hosted 14 members of _“Angel Families”_ at the White House on Friday. Some of them held up photos of the loved ones whose murderers turned out to be illegal immigrants.

_"We're gathered today to hear directly from the American victims of illegal immigration. You hear the other side, you never hear this side, you don't know what's going on,”_ Trump said. _"These are the American citizens permanently separated from their loved ones… because they were killed by criminal illegal aliens.”_

_"These are the families the media ignores. They don't talk about them, very unfair,"_ the president continued.

*At this point, two of of three major US cable networks decided to cut away from the event, the Washington Examiner pointed out on Friday afternoon. Fox News stayed tuned to the meeting.*




_“I'm not sure why attacks on the media are necessary there,”_ CNN anchor Brooke Baldwin said as she interrupted the coverage, adding that _“obviously our hearts go out to them.”_ CNN then returned to coverage of illegal immigrant families being separated after crossing the US border.

MSNBC likewise decided the event was not worth their continued attention. _“Of course their stories are indeed tragic,”_anchor Chris Jansing said,  before moving on to a segment that disputed Trump's claim of widespread crime being committed by illegal immigrants.





https://www.rt.com/usa/430612-trump-angel-families-msm/​


----------



## luutzu

DB008 said:


> Hmm..l'm not surprised...
> 
> 
> *CNN, MSNBC look away as Trump hosts families of*
> *victims killed by illegal immigrants*​President Donald Trump hosted families who lost loved ones to crimes committed by illegal immigrants. CNN and MSNBC cut their coverage of the White House event shortly after Trump accused the media of ‘overlooking’ the families.
> 
> Trump hosted 14 members of _“Angel Families”_ at the White House on Friday. Some of them held up photos of the loved ones whose murderers turned out to be illegal immigrants.
> 
> _"We're gathered today to hear directly from the American victims of illegal immigration. You hear the other side, you never hear this side, you don't know what's going on,”_ Trump said. _"These are the American citizens permanently separated from their loved ones… because they were killed by criminal illegal aliens.”_
> 
> _"These are the families the media ignores. They don't talk about them, very unfair,"_ the president continued.
> 
> *At this point, two of of three major US cable networks decided to cut away from the event, the Washington Examiner pointed out on Friday afternoon. Fox News stayed tuned to the meeting.*
> 
> View attachment 87933​
> _“I'm not sure why attacks on the media are necessary there,”_ CNN anchor Brooke Baldwin said as she interrupted the coverage, adding that _“obviously our hearts go out to them.”_ CNN then returned to coverage of illegal immigrant families being separated after crossing the US border.
> 
> MSNBC likewise decided the event was not worth their continued attention. _“Of course their stories are indeed tragic,”_anchor Chris Jansing said,  before moving on to a segment that disputed Trump's claim of widespread crime being committed by illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> View attachment 87934​
> https://www.rt.com/usa/430612-trump-angel-families-msm/​
> 
> View attachment 87932​





Should Trump also do another show and tell with victims of fat White male conman? After which Trump can then evict himself out of the US?


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> Should Trump also do another show and tell with victims of fat White male conman? After which Trump can then evict himself out of the US?




That piece of propaganda by Trump was recognised for the cheap shxt it was.  If the networks had any balls they would have have called it far more aggresively.

What Trump was saying was that because some illegal immagrants had commited crimes ALL potential immigrants are potential killers/rapists  ect.  Luutzu comment about parading the victims of fat white conmen and then lumping all fat whites into the same boat makes that point.

And as for the hysterical rubbish being paraded around about this kid  or that kid not being quite illegal enough to warrant being  on the front page of Time ?  What absolute, total, shite ..!!

There are thousands of children summarily separated from their families.  No one knows where there families are because  authorities made decisions *not to note who was going where*.  Classy what ?

This isn't a one off assault on a person that has stoped and may be repaired.  These children and their parents are separated and in custody in effect indefinately. They have no idea where their family is, why they have been separated and when they might be re-united. Anyone with  an ounce of compasion and two functioning brain cells would understand the trauma this is causing the children and their parents.

And despite these facts the sociopathitic right is calling  these crying kids actors and trying to dismiss the cruelty of the whole story because one pictured kid is not "illegal" enough?

In my view the architects of this infamy should not be allowed to face the public without being shamed on every occasion.  It's just criminal.

Get a picture of where these  actions are  leading  the world community.

* Inspired by Trump, the world could be heading back to the 1930s *
Jonathan Freedland
The US president tears children from parents, and in Europe his imitators dehumanise migrants. We know where such hatred leads

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-world-1930s-children-parents-europe-migrants


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> That piece of propaganda by Trump was recognised for the cheap shxt it was.  If the networks had any balls they would have have called it far more aggresively.
> 
> What Trump was saying was that because some illegal immagrants had commited crimes ALL potential immigrants are potential killers/rapists  ect.  Luutzu comment about parading the victims of fat white conmen and then lumping all fat whites into the same boat makes that point.
> 
> And as for the hysterical rubbish being paraded around about this kid  or that kid not being quite illegal enough to warrant being  on the front page of Time ?  What absolute, total, shite ..!!
> 
> There are thousands of children summarily separated from their families.  No one knows where there families are because  authorities made decisions *not to note who was going where*.  Classy what ?
> 
> This isn't a one off assault on a person that has stoped and may be repaired.  These children and their parents are separated and in custody in effect indefinately. They have no idea where their family is, why they have been separated and when they might be re-united. Anyone with  an ounce of compasion and two functioning brain cells would understand the trauma this is causing the children and their parents.
> 
> And despite these facts the sociopathitic right is calling  these crying kids actors and trying to dismiss the cruelty of the whole story because one pictured kid is not "illegal" enough?
> 
> In my view the architects of this infamy should not be allowed to face the public without being shamed on every occasion.  It's just criminal.
> 
> Get a picture of where these  actions are  leading  the world community.
> 
> * Inspired by Trump, the world could be heading back to the 1930s *
> Jonathan Freedland
> The US president tears children from parents, and in Europe his imitators dehumanise migrants. We know where such hatred leads
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-world-1930s-children-parents-europe-migrants




Some interesting statements in this article:

"There is no system in place to reunite them. The children were not properly registered."

If this is true then  its disgusting and a real violation. If its not true, then its just as disgusting. Can anyone verify from a non media source?


----------



## HelloU

When I leave my house I lock the door. Do others lock their doors as well?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Some interesting statements in this article:
> 
> "There is no system in place to reunite them. The children were not properly registered."
> 
> If this is true then  its disgusting and a real violation. If its not true, then its just as disgusting. Can anyone verify from a non media source?





Non media source  to verify this situation. Let's try a few.

_John Sandweg, the head of US immigration and customs enforcement under the Obama administration, who has been highly critical of Trump, warned that some migrant children may never be reunited with their families because of the logistical difficulties. “The parents can be sent back very quickly to Central America, whereas the kids are staying in the US for years while they’re going through the immigration process,” he said.
_
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ration-policy-like-genocide-theresa-may-visit


“There is no system whatsoever to track these family separations, no efforts systematically to reunite these families,” Mr Enriquez (the director of the unaccompanied minors program for Catholic Charities)  said. “There is no supervisor, there is no database saying, ‘child here, parent there,’ so they can come back together.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reds-children-stranded-new-york-a8409231.html

*No clear plan yet on how to reunite parents with children separated at US border*
*Rights workers scramble to collect as much information as possible from the handcuffed men and women in the hope of later helping the families *

Goes into details of how little information is properly recorded of names and children and parents and where each has been sent.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-cl...parents-with-children-separated-at-us-border/


----------



## basilio

After a bit more research I visted Snopes to see what they had to say about the problems facing parents and children sent to separate internment camps in the US. I's an excellent article .

*Does the United States Have a Plan to Reunite Children Separated From Parents at the Border?*
*Attorneys, politicians, and journalists all describe a bureaucracy unprepared for the challenges of reuniting large numbers of children forcibly separated from their parents. *
By
Alex Kasprak
19 June 2018







On 6 April 2018, the Department of Justice announced that the Trump Administration would be instituting a new “zero tolerance policy” regarding border crossings, one that explicitly includes child separation as a part of that policy.

Despite repeated denials by Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen during an 18 June 2018 press conference, this child separation policy has explicitly been described by the Trump administration as a move whose main goal is to act as a deterrent to illegal immigration. Officials have said so since at least March 2017; Chief of Staff John Kelly said so as recently as 11 May 2018.

Convoluted arguments presented by the DHS to the contrary notwithstanding, the policy as described by Attorney General Jeff Sessions requires the prosecution of “100 percent” of illegal entries, and therefore that entails forcible separation of children from their parents once those parents are arrested:

People are not going to caravan or otherwise stampede our border. We need legality and integrity in the system. That’s why the Department of Homeland Security is now referring 100 percent of illegal Southwest Border crossings to the Department of Justice for prosecution.  And the Department of Justice will take up those cases.

I have put in place a “zero tolerance” policy for illegal entry on our Southwest border.  If you cross this border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you.  It’s that simple. If you smuggle illegal aliens across our border, then we will prosecute you. If you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you and that child will be separated from you as required by law.

In the first six weeks following Session’s announcement, at least 2,000 children were separated from their parents, at least according to numbers released by the Department of Homeland Security.  The required prosecution of their parents necessarily results in their being referred criminally to the the DHS, and their children detained under the authority of the Department of Health and Human Services’s Office of Refugee Resettlement.

Things become especially problematic after the two parties are placed on these divergent paths, the _New York Times _reported, because the timelines that parents follow are often times much shorter than the ones for the detained children:

In federal court, parents typically plead guilty to the misdemeanor offense of illegal entry. Many are then likely to accept “expedited removal” from the country, in the hope of being reunited quickly with their children. But children cannot be subject to expedited removal; they are automatically entitled to a full hearing before an immigration judge, and their cases take longer to resolve.

Government bureaucracy, differing institutional objectives, and a lack of communication provide what is, in effect, a complete firewall between between those officials prosecuting parents and the ones tasked with caring for their detained children, making it impossible to concurrently track both parties as they are processed by their respective agencies. The _Times _reported:

The processing and detention of migrant families can involve three Homeland Security agencies — Customs and Border Protection, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Citizenship and Immigration Services — as well as the departments of Justice and Health and Human Services. Poor coordination among them has made it hard to track children and parents once their paths diverge in the labyrinthine system.

As described in an 18 June 2018 _New Yorker_ article, the system as it currently operates appears to be wholly unable to track both parties once they go down those divergent paths:

No protocols have been put in place for keeping track of parents and children concurrently, for keeping parents and children in contact with each other while they are separated, or for eventually reuniting them. Immigration lawyers, public defenders, and advocates along the border have been trying to fill the void.

Nor is there any guarantee that a deported parent will be reunited with their child before being removed from the country or a guarantee that a child would be notified if their parent had been deported. On 17 June 2018, the _New York Times_ described one such instance of that occurring:

The Border Patrol was waiting as [Elsa Ortiz and her son Anthony] made their way from the border on May 26, and soon mother and son were in a teeming detention center in southern Texas. The next part unfolded so swiftly that, even now, Ms. Ortiz cannot grasp it: Anthony was sent to a shelter for migrant children. And she was put on a plane back to Guatemala.

“I am completely devastated,” Ms. Ortiz, 25, said in one of a series of video interviews last week from her family home in Guatemala. Her eyes swollen from weeping and her voice subdued, she said she had no idea when or how she would see her son again.

In these cases, which the _Times_ reported to be occurring in “several” instances, there is an even higher risk that a child is never reunited with their parents. John Sandweg, who was acting director of ICE during the Obama administration, told the paper that reunification is especially difficult when a parent is deported without the child and that in those cases, “there is a very high risk that parents and children will be permanently separated.”

Sandweg reiterated this point to several other outlets as well. “If the administration doesn’t reunify these children very quickly, which is logistically very hard to do, you’re going to have a lot of permanent separations,” he told a reporter for the Canadian outlet Global News. 

The most recent surge in separated families at the border appears to highlight the fact that there are few, if any, existing safeguards to prevent such scenarios from occurring, and suggests that the government has not developed a workable system to ensure communication between all the relevant parties.

The _New Yorker_ reported a number of problems plaguing the system: *Both children and adults are assigned “alien numbers” once they enter the custody of the United States, but these numbers are not necessarily communicated between agencies. There is a hotline setup for families to call for information about detained children, but it suffers from long wait times, the inability to leave a callback number, and the preventative expense of international calling. On top of that, children are moved between facilities frequently, making it hard to work backwards from where a parent and child were first separated:*

Jennifer Podkul, who is the policy director of [immigrant-rights group] Kids in Need of Defense, told [The New Yorker] that advocates are trying to piece together information about the whereabouts of children based on the federal charging documents used in the parent’s immigration case. “You can try to figure out where and when the child was apprehended based on that,” she said. “But where the child is being held often has nothing to do with where she and her parent were arrested. The kids get moved around to different facilities.”

“I cannot convey enough how much utter chaos there is,” Michelle Brané, director of migrant rights and justice at the research and advocacy organization Women’s Refugee Commission, told the _New York Times_ regarding efforts to reunify children with parents. Politicians, as well, have been unable to have their questions or concerns answered, as reported by BuzzFeed News on 18 June 2018:

Oregon Sen. Jeff Merkley, a Democrat who led a delegation of lawmakers to see the impact the “zero tolerance” policy was having on the border […] said he hadn’t received a clear answer on the how the government planned to return children to the parents, in particular in the case of asylum-seekers.

“My impression has been that in general many are not being reunited after they do their time served … that they are in fact not reunified while awaiting their asylum claim,” Merkley told BuzzFeed News. “There’s great confusion on this point.”

This level of accountability was echoed in the_ New Yorker_ coverage as well:

Although the zero-tolerance policy was officially announced last month, it has been in effect, in more limited form, since at least last summer. *Several months ago, as cases of family separation started surfacing across the country, immigrant-rights groups began calling for the [DHS] to create procedures for tracking families after they are split up. At the time, [DHS] said that it would address the problem, but there is no evidence that it actually did so.


Antar Davidson, a former youth care worker at a children’s shelter who resigned after ORR began sending separated children to the facility, described to the Los Angeles Times instances of children who felt utterly hopeless or, in some cases, believed that their parents were likely dead:*

[Three separated] children were “huddled together, tears streaming down their faces,” he said. Officials had told them their parents were “lost,” which they interpreted to mean dead. Davidson said he told the children he didn’t know where their parents were, but that they had to be strong […].

During his time at the shelter, children were running away, screaming, throwing furniture and attempting suicide, Davidson said. Several were being monitored this week because they were at risk of running away, self-harm and suicide, records show.

We reached out to Health and Human Services for clarification on the safeguards in place for preventing a permanent separation, but we have not yet received any response. In an 18 June 2018 press release, however, DHS addressed concerns over concurrently monitoring the legal progress of both child and parent by stating, “DHS is committed to and has procedures in place to connect family members after separation so adults know the location of minors and have regular communication with them.”

DHS then referenced the aforementioned hotline phone numbers.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> That piece of propaganda by Trump was recognised for the cheap shxt it was.  If the networks had any balls they would have have called it far more aggresively.
> 
> What Trump was saying was that because some illegal immagrants had commited crimes ALL potential immigrants are potential killers/rapists  ect.  Luutzu comment about parading the victims of fat white conmen and then lumping all fat whites into the same boat makes that point.
> 
> And as for the hysterical rubbish being paraded around about this kid  or that kid not being quite illegal enough to warrant being  on the front page of Time ?  What absolute, total, shite ..!!
> 
> There are thousands of children summarily separated from their families.  No one knows where there families are because  authorities made decisions *not to note who was going where*.  Classy what ?
> 
> This isn't a one off assault on a person that has stoped and may be repaired.  These children and their parents are separated and in custody in effect indefinately. They have no idea where their family is, why they have been separated and when they might be re-united. Anyone with  an ounce of compasion and two functioning brain cells would understand the trauma this is causing the children and their parents.
> 
> And despite these facts the sociopathitic right is calling  these crying kids actors and trying to dismiss the cruelty of the whole story because one pictured kid is not "illegal" enough?
> 
> In my view the architects of this infamy should not be allowed to face the public without being shamed on every occasion.  It's just criminal.
> 
> Get a picture of where these  actions are  leading  the world community.
> 
> * Inspired by Trump, the world could be heading back to the 1930s *
> Jonathan Freedland
> The US president tears children from parents, and in Europe his imitators dehumanise migrants. We know where such hatred leads
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-world-1930s-children-parents-europe-migrants




It is just disgusting. 

Watching clips of those talk show hosts and "news" anchors calling child imprisonment as "summer camps"; that Trump is only screwing with these people and their kids because they're illegal foreigners, doing it to "protect" American citizens. Fark me.

I used to wonder how the Nazi got perfectly decent Germans to go along with their crimes... this is a perfect example of what a morally screwed up "leadership" with compliant media/propaganda machine can do. 

Trump just literally lower the safety standard of baby cots. How will that save American infants? 

He's ramping up the defunding of public schools; further cutting funding for higher education... poor kids wanting to learn? Go get a job you stupid peasants. 

Raising rent on gov't housing. Cutting back food stamps and healthcare on children and pensioners...

All that because apparently the US have no money. But somehow they magically have $70B extra they're putting towards the military budget; and that $1.5 trillion tax cuts. 

And now, with these "trade wars"... That's just a new tax on American consumers. I mean, any company that's affected by it will get taxpayers subsidies. So they can raise their prices if that's what they need to do to retain the same margin, and if that's not enough, they lobbied to get subsidies. 

Maybe they really should stop "protecting" and helping people.


----------



## moXJO

*Both children and adults are assigned “alien numbers” once they enter the custody of the United States*

So there is obviously a database  in place. They may however get lost in the system. Even snopes was a bit vague on details.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> It is just disgusting.
> 
> Watching clips of those talk show hosts and "news" anchors calling child imprisonment as "summer camps"; that Trump is only screwing with these people and their kids because they're illegal foreigners, doing it to "protect" American citizens. Fark me.
> 
> I used to wonder how the Nazi got perfectly decent Germans to go along with their crimes... this is a perfect example of what a morally screwed up "leadership" with compliant media/propaganda machine can do.
> 
> Trump just literally lower the safety standard of baby cots. How will that save American infants?
> 
> He's ramping up the defunding of public schools; further cutting funding for higher education... poor kids wanting to learn? Go get a job you stupid peasants.
> 
> Raising rent on gov't housing. Cutting back food stamps and healthcare on children and pensioners...
> 
> All that because apparently the US have no money. But somehow they magically have $70B extra they're putting towards the military budget; and that $1.5 trillion tax cuts.
> 
> And now, with these "trade wars"... That's just a new tax on American consumers. I mean, any company that's affected by it will get taxpayers subsidies. So they can raise their prices if that's what they need to do to retain the same margin, and if that's not enough, they lobbied to get subsidies.
> 
> Maybe they really should stop "protecting" and helping people.



Did the US leave the UN?  
Does that mean they don’t have to worry about following protocols around refugees?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Some interesting statements in this article:
> 
> "There is no system in place to reunite them. The children were not properly registered."
> 
> If this is true then  its disgusting and a real violation. If its not true, then its just as disgusting. Can anyone verify from a non media source?




Just hitting those URls and reading the stories gives the detail of how the US government  has made it exceptionally difficult if not impossible to re connect separated families. 
But then that was always the intention.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> *Both children and adults are assigned “alien numbers” once they enter the custody of the United States*
> 
> So there is obviously a database  in place. They may however get lost in the system. Even snopes was a bit vague on details.




The article made it clear that the communication between the various organisations holding parents and children is minimal. The numbers assigned to children and parents are not connected. The system as it stands isn't designed to enable families to be re united.

Another story from a person directly dealing with the children in camps.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/


----------



## IFocus

Liked this quote

"Sara Sanders, no shirt, no morals, no service"


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Just hitting those URls and reading the stories gives the detail of how the US government  has made it exceptionally difficult if not impossible to re connect separated families.
> But then that was always the intention.



I think the risk is kids getting lost in bureaucratic bungling in having to deal with policy on the run. 
I understand pushing tough borders,  but they should have put laws in place prior. Instead they ended up with this media nightmare.

They might be expecting the heat to die down once the left loses interest (manus style) and the wider public stop caring.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The article made it clear that the communication between the various organisations holding parents and children is minimal. The numbers assigned to children and parents are not connected. The system as it stands isn't designed to enable families to be re united.
> 
> Another story from a person directly dealing with the children in camps.
> https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/



Interviews are always emotive and leading, unless its from an impartial source (around these issues). What they say they observe and what actually happens might be miles apart.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Liked this quote
> 
> "Sara Sanders, no shirt, no morals, no service"



Or Red (communist) Hen.


----------



## Tisme

Apparetly those seeking asylum are fleeing high rates of crime in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.

The US asylum legal rules don't accommodate that kind of asylum, being there for religion, race, political persuasion, nationality or social group membership. Because there's been relaxation at various intervals the population think taking in general crime victims is law, but it isn't.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Apparetly those seeking asylum are fleeing high rates of crime in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.




A "justified fear of persecution" is the criteria I believe. I don't think high crime rates fit the bill.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> A "justified fear of persecution" is the criteria I believe. I don't think high crime rates fit the bill.




https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title08/8tab_02.tpl

If the seekers are coming through Mexico, there is the argument they safer there than their home country and need not seek US admission.


----------



## Tisme

wayneL said:


>






Warning coarse "language"


||
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
\/







	

		
			
		

		
	
 .


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Apparetly those seeking asylum are fleeing high rates of crime in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.
> 
> The US asylum legal rules don't accommodate that kind of asylum, being there for religion, race, political persuasion, nationality or social group membership. Because there's been relaxation at various intervals the population think taking in general crime victims is law, but it isn't.




Up until a few months ago they in fact did. That was when Jeff Sessions decided to drastically tighten asylum laws by decree rather than through the law.
* Jeff Sessions accused of political bias in hiring immigration judges *
Allegations that the justice department is blocking judges on political grounds comes as the attorney general has drastically tightened asylum rules

Tom Dart in Houston

 @Tom_Dart 
Sat 16 Jun 2018 11.59 BST   Last modified on Sat 16 Jun 2018 14.23 BST

*Shares*
1394




The attorney general, Jeff Sessions, announced on Monday that those seeking sanctuary as victims of ‘private criminal activity’ will not generally qualify for asylum. Photograph: Michael Candelori/Rex/Shutterstock
The Trump administration has been accused of illegally rejecting potential immigration judges for being too liberal, amid outrage over families being forcibly separated at the southern US border and a harsh crackdown on migrants seeking asylum.

The allegations of politicized hiring practices come as the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, has issued a decision that will bar most victims of gangs or domestic violence from securing asylum in the US.

As chaos continues at the Mexican border over Trump’s policy of “zero tolerance” against anyone entering the US unlawfully, Session has underlined his power over a quasi-judicial immigration system that affects millions.

The attorney general has the power to hire and fire immigration judges and make unilateral rulings such as the one he announced last Monday, which holds that those who cross the border illegally seeking sanctuary as victims of “private criminal activity”, as opposed to state-sanctioned persecution, will not generally qualify for asylum.

Critics now worry that immigration courts are vulnerable to politicization by a White House with an overt hostility towards many classes of immigrants.
Four Democratic members of Congress wrote to Sessions in April expressing concern after whistleblower allegations that the Department of Justice “may be using ideological and political considerations to improperly – and illegally – block the hiring of immigration judges and members of the Board of Immigration Appeals”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ions-political-bias-hiring-immigration-judges


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Or Red (communist) Hen.




I think it's largely a behavior/liar thing framing left/right just doesn't work IMHO.


----------



## Tisme




----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> I think it's largely a behavior/liar thing framing left/right just doesn't work IMHO.



Yeah...  I  kinda felt like "I feel like snowflake chicken tonight"  wasn't going to work either. I should of just left it alone.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


>





Difference is the North Korean news anchor got a gun or two to their head. What's the Fox anchor's excuse?

But this is nothing though. In a decade or two, there'll be at least one High School named after the Trump. A couple more decades after that and he'll be the new Ronald Reagan. Nah, new Washington: I can always tell a lie.


----------



## Darc Knight

I knew Trump's Book The Art of the Deal was crap, but I didn't know this
_"Now ‘The Art of the Deal,’ is making headlines again in 2016, following a controversial interview in The New Yorker with the book’s co-author Tony Schwartz. Schwartz claims he wrote “every word,” of the popular book. “Donald Trump made a few red marks when I handed him the manuscript, but that was it,” he said in an interview with ABC’s 'Good Morning America.'

Schwartz, who observed Trump almost daily for 18 months when penning 'The Art of the Deal,' describes Trump as a dangerous sociopath whose successes were mythicized in 'The Art of the Deal.' Schwartz says he now regrets writing the book:“I feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is,” Schwartz told The New Yorker.  In response to Schwartz’s ‘Good Morning America’ interview and New Yorker article, Trump’s camp has issued Schwartz a cease-and-desist letter and has asked Schwartz to send a check to Trump for the royalties generated from 'The Art of the Deal,' plus his advance._

This Is How Donald Trump Actually Got Rich | Investopedia https://www.investopedia.com/updates/donald-trump-rich/#ixzz5JVdPoo4m


----------



## SirRumpole

Markets getting nervous over escalating trade war.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-26/share-markets-dive-as-traders-get-nervous/9909858


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Markets getting nervous over escalating trade war.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-26/share-markets-dive-as-traders-get-nervous/9909858




With interest rate rising, most people up to their eyeballs in debt. Oil and energy prices up, so will the costs of everything else they care to use... Wages practically flat.

All that before the trade wars. 

Some analysts quoted by Reuters says that, from memory, of the the first $200B, only about 1% of it affect consumers. Trump's proposing some $450B now. 

After the first $200B, everything else, the guy said, will directly impact consumers. 

But I guess this is that trade war the US have to have. Leave it any longer and China will rule the world. They're already planning that Made in China 2025 where it's mandated that Chinese firms better capture a sizeable market in a dozen or so key industry around the world by 2025.


----------



## Darc Knight

A possible US-Russia Summit on the cards. Be interesting to see how this unfolds. Trump does seem to have a talent for strategy in deal making ...... or screwing people over lol.
Going to be very interesting to watch Trump and Poody go at it.
popcorn.jpeg


----------



## basilio

The entire Western alliance is unravelling.  Ramifications for everyone are  ???

* EU must 'prepare for worst-case scenarios' under Trump, top official warns *
Senior officials concerned about the future under a new American doctrine in which there are ‘no friends, only enemies’

Daniel Boffey and Jennifer Rankin in Brussels

Wed 27 Jun 2018 19.41 BST   Last modified on Thu 28 Jun 2018 01.05 BST

*Shares*
471




The European Council’s president, Donald Tusk, said ‘trans-Atlantic relations are under immense pressure due to the policies of President Trump.’ Photograph: Wiktor Szymanowicz/REX/Shutterstock
Donald Trump has been accused by the European Union of pioneering a new American doctrine in which there are “no friends, only enemies”.

Ahead of what is set to be a stormy Nato summit next week – and with EU leaders gathering in Brussels to discuss a developing transatlantic trade war among other issues – the bloc’s most senior officials expressed deep anxiety about the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...case-scenarios-under-trump-top-official-warns


----------



## SirRumpole

Another diplomat resigns over Trump's Europe policies.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...ad-us-ambassador-to-estonia-to-resign/9927928


----------



## basilio

*Are we the baddies ? *As we watch Donald Trump destroying Nato,  trashing Canada and Mexico., starting trade wars around the world, separating familes into separte detention facililities simply for wanting to escape murderous conditions you have to ask your the question - * Are we the baddies ?
*
Check out the story.
* What clip best sums up the Trump era? An old Mitchell and Webb sketch about WW2 *

Hadley Freeman
Politicians and media figures are starting to let their roots show, and this meme is about them
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/30/trump-era-mitchell-webb-are-we-the-baddies


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Are we the baddies ? *As we watch Donald Trump destroying Nato,  trashing Canada and Mexico., starting trade wars around the world, separating familes into separte detention facililities simply for wanting to escape murderous conditions you have to ask your the question - * Are we the baddies ?
> *
> Check out the story.
> * What clip best sums up the Trump era? An old Mitchell and Webb sketch about WW2 *
> 
> Hadley Freeman
> Politicians and media figures are starting to let their roots show, and this meme is about them
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/30/trump-era-mitchell-webb-are-we-the-baddies



Really.... thats where the left think we are at? 
Next wave Nazism. Possibly the most stupid ploy yet to get trump kicked out by the left.

The same accusations were been thrown around during the  bush administration.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Next wave Nazism. Possibly the most stupid ploy yet to get trump kicked out by the left.




Give it a break Moxjo.  The conversation  is "*Are we the baddies* ?"  not *"Are we the Nazi'*s".  If you have read the story the point is that through all of our lives we have lived with the certainty that the US was on "right/good" side of  world politics. This was regardless of which  side of US politics was in power because we believed the overall direction of US relationships with the world was one we thought  was generally constructive and honourable.

In 2018 that belief is evaporating like a puddle on a hot day. The decisions to pull out of the Paris CC accord, to destroy the Iran nuclear agreement, to start a world trade war, to trash Canada , Mexico the European allies, the idea of separating familes trying to flee murderous regimes.. How many more examples do you want to see? 

In the eyes of many countries and individuals the US is looking like the baddies. How that plays out in terms of diplomacy,  economic and political relationships and in fact the stability of the world is a roll of the dice. Let's see what happens in the NATO conference next week.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> In 2018 that belief is evaporating like a puddle on a hot day. The decisions to pull out of the Paris CC accord, to destroy the Iran nuclear agreement, to start a world trade war, to trash Canada , Mexico the European allies, the idea of separating familes trying to flee murderous regimes.. How many more examples do you want to see?




Some analysis may indicate that TRump has a point in some of those areas, even though his responses may be extreme, ungracious and undiplomatic.

1. Pulling out of the Paris accord. Bad move in my opinion but typical of his agenda.

2. Iran nuclear agreement. We have an unstable anti Western regime developing nuclear weapons. I don't blame him for trying to stop them.

3. The European allies. Europe has been an exclusive trading cartel for decades and if you exclude others for long enough then you can't blame others for retaliating. As for Canada, perhaps they have pretty restrictive tariffs, I don't know. But sure, if you put military alliances at risk then that's a bad outcome.

4. "Separating families fleeing murderous regimes". The bulk of migrants appear to be Mexicans. Are they governed by a murderous regime ? They appear to be basically economic migrants without any "well justified fear of persecution" and can't really be considered genuine refugees.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Give it a break Moxjo.  The conversation  is "*Are we the baddies* ?"  not *"Are we the Nazi'*s".  If you have read the story the point is that through all of our lives we have lived with the certainty that the US was on "right/good" side of  world politics. This was regardless of which  side of US politics was in power because we believed the overall direction of US relationships with the world was one we thought  was generally constructive and honourable.
> 
> In 2018 that belief is evaporating like a puddle on a hot day. The decisions to pull out of the Paris CC accord, to destroy the Iran nuclear agreement, to start a world trade war, to trash Canada , Mexico the European allies, the idea of separating familes trying to flee murderous regimes.. How many more examples do you want to see?
> 
> In the eyes of many countries and individuals the US is looking like the baddies. How that plays out in terms of diplomacy,  economic and political relationships and in fact the stability of the world is a roll of the dice. Let's see what happens in the NATO conference next week.



The whole thing shades it like Trump is the next hitler. He did something similar to what Australia did. Only we are probably worse. We locked people up in detention till they either take a plane ride home, or find another country.But it stopped others floating in. 

Labors "give em a hug policy" was morally right until people started flooding the system. Not to mention boats smashing into rocks and taking hundreds. How many ended up in detention.

 Dutton and Morrison cleared the numbers out. We still take in refugees at a higher rate,  but watch the lefties cry "Hitler" or "Nazi" at Dutton.
I've got leftie "nazi" fatigue to tell you the truth. It's lefty propaganda to rally numbers.

The bad guys are the ones killing their citizens and repressing any freedom of their people. You know, like Syria and Iran.

Most countries are guilty of something. But its not on the US to shoulder all the weight.


----------



## Darc Knight

Intelligence reports suggesting North Korea has increased production of enriched Uranium.


----------



## Tink




----------



## Tisme

The USAs new improved ground missile defence systems and laser weaponed drones are causing the Ruskies and Chinese some heartache. It seems their nuclear payloads might have been money ill spent.


----------



## sptrawler

Looks like Trump has pulled off another blinder, getting NATO to spend more on defense, rather than freeloading on the U.S.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...es-agree-to-increase-defence-spending/9987810

He certainly seems to be getting more done, than any President in recent history.


----------



## McLovin

sptrawler said:


> Looks like Trump has pulled off another blinder, getting NATO to spend more on defense, rather than freeloading on the U.S.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...es-agree-to-increase-defence-spending/9987810
> 
> He certainly seems to be getting more done, than any President in recent history.




So he says...

Last month it was Little Rocket Man denuking. That seems to have stalled already. Quelle surprise! Even the most basic request the US made is not being followed through on.



> SEOUL — North Korean officials did not turn up to a Thursday meeting with the U.S. military about repatriating the remains of the war dead, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the situation.
> 
> ...
> 
> State Department officials had said that the meeting would likely take place on July 12, though they added that the date could shift.
> 
> On Thursday, however, Department of Defense and United Nations Command officials were left waiting in the DMZ’s Joint Security Area. The expected North Korean officials never arrived, according to the official who requested anonymity as he was not permitted to talk publicly about the event.
> 
> “We were ready,” the official said. “It just didn’t happen. They didn’t show.”
> 
> ...
> 
> Trump told a crowd of supporters [a week after the Singapore summit] that the remains of 200 Americans “have been sent back.” Military officials later denied that, but told reporters that they expected the remains to arrive within days and had made prearrangements for their arrival, such as storing caskets at the DMZ.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d3b8a301ca5

And why did they not show?



> SEOUL: After failing to show for expected talks with American officials on Thursday, North Korea called for general-level military negotiations to discuss the return of the remains of U.S. soldiers killed in the 1950-1953 Korean War, Yonhap news agency reported.
> 
> Citing an unidentified South Korean official, Yonhap reported that the North Koreans want to speak with an American general, possibly as early as Sunday.






https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...discuss-us-soldiers--remains--yonhap-10524434

No one knows how to stall like the DPRK. Those remains ain't going nowhere until they get something out of it.

The average Trump supporter seems to have a memory shorter than a goldfish, so all he has to do is find a new shiny bauble to dangle in front of them. This month it's NATO.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Looks like Trump has pulled off another blinder, getting NATO to spend more on defense, rather than freeloading on the U.S.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...es-agree-to-increase-defence-spending/9987810
> 
> He certainly seems to be getting more done, than any President in recent history.




He's just representing the Arms Industry. That and pizzing off the few remaining US allies for kicks.

I know the EU is just a few vassal states, but come on, you can't talk to their leadership like that. Dressing them down, calling them freeloaders, forcing them to buy more expensive US/Saudi energy instead of Russian/Iranian ones at 1/3rd the cost.

Asking them to increase military spending, pegging it to GDP. Jesus man, where's the money to pay for that. Gutting social services and other national plans?

And why. Russia is no longer the commies. Their military budget was a mere $70B a year... that's the same amount the US just increased this year on its previous $670B. 

If the EU, notably UK, France and Germany doesn't have their own military industrial complex that also demand subsidies, they wouldn't put up with it. 

Mearsheimer was saying in some lecture a few years ago that the US is pivoting away from Europe and into Asia - to confront China. 

I guess them leaving would put a big dent in the arms merchants annual results. We can't have that now can we... so the push for more EU spending to make up the difference. Those carriers and next-generation nuclear weapons projects aren't going to pay themselves.


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> So he says...
> 
> Last month it was Little Rocket Man denuking. That seems to have stalled already. Quelle surprise! Even the most basic request the US made is not being followed through on.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d3b8a301ca5
> 
> 
> 
> The average Trump supporter seems to have a memory shorter than a goldfish, so all he has to do is find a new shiny bauble to dangle in front of them. This month it's NATO.




Well from an outsider looking in, it would appear he is making headway, rather than just sitting on his hands and giving a state of the nation talk as his predecessors appeared to do.
But as you know, news in Australia is very selective, in both quality and quantity.

I guess the next election will tell how his support is going.


----------



## McLovin

sptrawler said:


> Well from an outsider looking in, it would appear he is making headway, rather than just sitting on his hands and giving a state of the nation talk as his predecessors appeared to do.




Or maybe his predecessors had a better idea of how state actors operate. The problem for Trump is he is pretty transparent; he luxuriates in being told how amazing he is, and in plain old grandstanding. And honestly, who thinks Russia is going to try and have a go at Germany or Western Europe?

(And that's before you get to the idea of encouraging Germany to increase its military spending, which would have been heresy only a generation ago. History tells you why the US carried the largest burden in Europe, it was because the Europeans have a habit of killing each other and dragging the rest of us into it. Maggie Thatcher and Mitterrand must be rolling over in their graves)


----------



## luutzu

McLovin said:


> Or maybe his predecessors had a better idea of how state actors operate. The problem for Trump is he is pretty transparent; he luxuriates in being told how amazing he is, and in plain old grandstanding. And honestly, who thinks Russia is going to try and have a go at Germany or Western Europe?
> 
> (And that's before you get to the idea of encouraging Germany to increase its military spending, which would have been heresy only a generation ago. History tells you why the US carried the largest burden in Europe, it was because the Europeans have a habit of killing each other and dragging the rest of us into it. Maggie Thatcher and Mitterrand must be rolling over in their graves)




Ey that's a good point. 

Telling the Europeans to spend more on their military. Assuming they would never turn it on each other or force the yank to move their bases out.

The hardliners in Japan can't wait 'til he turn up telling them to arms up to forward strike capability.


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> Or maybe his predecessors had a better idea of how state actors operate. The problem for Trump is he is pretty transparent; he luxuriates in being told how amazing he is, and in plain old grandstanding. And honestly, who thinks Russia is going to try and have a go at Germany or Western Europe?




I would have thought the biggest problem Trump has, is a huge deficit that they have no way of filling, without selling U.S made product.
At the moment the only people buying U.S military equipment in any quantity, is the U.S.
To get a stalled monetary system moving i.e inflation up, interest up and pay rates up, they have to be able to sell their product, whatever it is.
With the Chinese Yuan linked to the U.S dollar, the U.S can't make their products cheaper by reducing the value of their currency, the Chinese product goes down in line with the U.S product.
It doesn't leave many options, when the trade imbalance is something like $630billion to $130billion China's way.
The U.S wants to put interest rates up, but that makes the U.S product dearer, as the currency appreciates.
Begging everyone to play the game, hasn't worked in the past, the U.S has been begging China to float their currency for years.
I really don't care much either way, it just appears to me that Trump is trying to kick start the U.S economy, it is a big market place that the capitalist system requires as an engine room.
Just my humble opinion, from a limited understanding of the issues.


----------



## McLovin

And hours after Trump said he got them spending more the truth comes out...


https://www.ft.com/content/86fe69d0-85a3-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d



> Later, at an impromptu press conference Mr Trump said: “I told people that I would be very unhappy if they didn’t up their commitments very substantially … and countries are going to start upping their commitments.”
> 
> No sooner had Mr Trump departed the summit, however, than some of the other leaders suggested that the alliance had only agreed to “redouble” their efforts to boost spending without making any commitments.
> 
> Mr Macron described the meeting as a “moment of truth” about burden sharing, but dismissed suggestions that the allies had agreed to go beyond the 2 per cent goal. “Today we are sticking to our commitments and now we have to deliver,” Mr Macron said.
> 
> Ms Merkel acknowledged the need to address the issue, but indicated there had been no additional spending commitment. “We presented the current situation,” she said. “But considering the discussion among the European allies, not only the Americans, I think we need to ask ourselves consistently what more we can do.”


----------



## SirRumpole

Wouldn't surprise me if the Europeans say "right, the US won't defend us any more, our only chance is nuclear weapons, so the Yanks can pi$$ off and we will nuclearise".

Britain and France already have them of course, Germany has the reactors and the means to produce them. Same with Japan if the US leaves them in the lurch as well.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't research going on in the background for this possibility.


----------



## moXJO

North Korea needs to be addressed one way or the other. Successive governments failed to do anything and they ended up with nukes. There is also the huge  human rights violations as well. We are well past standing around watching.


UN members should be spending at least 2% of gdp on defense. There shouldn't be an overreliance on the US. UN should also actually do something when other nations are in trouble. Its fricken usless.

Are we saying "because initial actions failed we should stop" ?

Pretty sure we shouldn't.


----------



## SirRumpole

Taking the word of a long term strategic and military opponent over your own security experts is seen as treason by some.

How will the electorate take this shocking lack of patriotism ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...ummit-vladimir-putin-denies-meddling/10001770


----------



## basilio

Seth Myers did an incisive analysis of Trumps UK and Russian Trip. 

Re. Trumps acceptance of Putins not-quite-denial of meddling in the US election. It will be interesting to see how many Republician  Congressmen and Senators bite the bullet when Muellers report is completed.


----------



## basilio

This was a "straighter" analysis of Trumps visit to Russia.


----------



## wayneL

'cept Europe is no longer an ideological  Allie is it?


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> 'cept Europe is no longer an ideological  Allie is it?




Yes, I'm trying to remember, the last time Germany was on our side?

As per usual, the media is jumping in feet first, wait a few days see what transpires.


----------



## notting

*I've decided to reveal my soul -*


----------



## explod

Cant believe the fuss.  Our athletes from all corners of the globe can play against each other with no problems at all.  And I'll bet there was more interference from within the US than without on the election.  In fact it was shown that G W Bush junior got in on rigged computor vote counting.

As a property man Trump is a salesman and I think Putin to get where he got and stay is probably one two.  And with financials getting tight they think it time to talk turkey.

Of course the FBI/CIA face of bankters don't like it one bit.

Syria just one example, the US system have been eating away at them for forty years to get control of their resources.   So who's cheating what and the false news reporters are just so serious and convincing.  We are lost, just enjoy the party and cheer the car salesmen.


----------



## IFocus

So one criminal meets another.

Trump debases the democratic institutions in the US with no regard for the fact that with out them the republic would fall.

He trashes western alliances that help project and protect the US economic might.

Trump is a criminal....lock him up.


----------



## explod

IFocus said:


> So one criminal meets another.
> 
> Trump debases the democratic institutions in the US with no regard for the fact that with out them the republic would fall.
> 
> He trashes western alliances that help project and protect the US economic might.
> 
> Trump is a criminal....lock him up.



Struth, what's democratic in America.  Unless you have millions to support your campaign you can't even stand or put your hand up.

Can anyone think anymore.


----------



## Tisme

How America became a super power and probably why Europe still looks down on it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...america-became-an-economic-superpower/384034/


----------



## moXJO

If trump walked on water, people would be whinging that he couldn't swim.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> If trump walked on water, people would be whinging that he couldn't swim.




Or he just met a couple Russian escorts


----------



## notting

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow...io-on-trump-1278891587866?playlist=associated


----------



## wayneL




----------



## McLovin

I misspoke for 48 minutes. Hilarious.


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


>





The old 'but Obama did it' response.

Trump could literally do or say no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.


----------



## wayneL

Junior said:


> The old 'but Obama did it' response.
> 
> Trump could literally do or say no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.



That's an interesting bludgeoning of facts into submission there Junior.

I guess we will have to expunge the history of the Obama years an order for progressives not to make hypocritical tw@ts of themselves.


----------



## SirRumpole

Excrutiating and damn funny to see Trump try and wangle his way out of his stupidity.

I never said that ! I meant to say something else ! It's all the Democrats fault !

F me, what sort of idiot is he ?


----------



## PZ99

moXJO said:


> If trump walked on water, people would be whinging that he couldn't swim.



He can't


----------



## McLovin

Junior said:


> Trump could literally do or say no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.




Well even Fox News got stuck into him, that's why he's come up with his dog ate his homework today. I mean seriously, LOL, claiming that he meant to use a double negative. Who buys this bullsh!t?

Who does not not use double negatives? Terrible grammar.


----------



## SirRumpole

Junior said:


> Trump could literally do or say no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.




That's true, but it's a matter of how many supporters he has left.

If his trade policies result in a loss of jobs in the agricultural and industrial sector then he's dead meat electorally.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> That's true, but it's a matter of how many supporters he has left.
> 
> If his trade policies result in a loss of jobs in the agricultural and industrial sector then he's dead meat electorally.




Seem that that's where the Chinese is targeting with the tariffs. US farmers have to switch what they plant when the price/tariff uncertainties halved certain prices. 

When you're a large purchaser like the Chinese is, you could really messed up farmers livelihood with a few simple press releases.

Read on Reuters that since China doesn't buy a heck of a lot from the US, they're getting more creative in hitting back. There are talks of them not granting as much tourist visas to the US; hike hotel prices on American business people in China etc. 

Then there's those American corporations in China they can leverage. Want to not lose all your stuff? Pick up that phone.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> Seem that that's where the Chinese is targeting with the tariffs. US farmers have to switch what they plant when the price/tariff uncertainties halved certain prices.
> 
> When you're a large purchaser like the Chinese is, you could really messed up farmers livelihood with a few simple press releases.
> 
> Read on Reuters that since China doesn't buy a heck of a lot from the US, they're getting more creative in hitting back. There are talks of them not granting as much tourist visas to the US; hike hotel prices on American business people in China etc.
> 
> Then there's those American corporations in China they can leverage. Want to not lose all your stuff? Pick up that phone.




I wonder if China will hold up visas to US politicians like they did with Australia.


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> That's true, but it's a matter of how many supporters he has left.
> 
> If his trade policies result in a loss of jobs in the agricultural and industrial sector then he's dead meat electorally.




The base won't move. Even Nixon had a 25% approval rating when he resigned. What happens in the November mid-terms will be pretty interesting. 

The US is a plutocracy that has been gerrymandered to serve the ultra rich. The GOP won two presidential elections this century while losing the popular vote, and it takes, on average, 20% more voters for the Dems to win a house seat than it does for the GOP. The demographics of the GOP are like a barbell; the very rich on one side, and the middle-America working class and poor on the other side (all related to the original southern strategy). That is done by design, not by accident.


----------



## SirRumpole

McLovin said:


> The US is a plutocracy that has been gerrymandered to serve the ultra rich. The GOP won two presidential elections this century while losing the popular vote, and it takes, on average, 20% more voters for the Dems to win a house seat than it does for the GOP.




Strange that the Dems haven't un-gerrymandered themselves while they were in power, or is it a Constitutional thing ?


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Strange that the Dems haven't un-gerrymandered themselves while they were in power, or is it a Constitutional thing ?




Electoral boundaries at the federal level are set by state governments and are re-drawn every ten years (from memory??), not haphazardly with a change of state government. The Dems do redistrict when they can, and they gerrymander  as well, but whites don't skew as heavily to the GOP as non-whites skew to the Dems so bang for your buck for the GOP is far greater. You also have to consider that the US electoral system skews toward rural states that tend to vote republican, so if the state legislature can crack an urbanised area into two semi-rural adjacent electorates then they have gerrymandered and it's unlike the Dems will be in control of the state legislature in the future to undo it.

Have a look at these maps of North Carolina to see just how ridiculous the gerrymandering is. The 1993-1998 map is farcical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina's_congressional_districts#Historical_and_present_district_boundaries


----------



## IFocus

McLovin said:


> The base won't move. Even Nixon had a 25% approval rating when he resigned. What happens in the November mid-terms will be pretty interesting.




43% approval and didn't move when separating kids from their parents.

Will be interesting if the patriots start thinking he is a traitor.......unlikely


----------



## Darc Knight

I'm worried what kind of damaging evidence Putin and the KGB might be blackmailing Trump with.
He'd be ripe pickings you'd think.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> I'm worried what kind of damaging evidence Putin and the KGB might be blackmailing Trump with.
> He'd be ripe pickings you'd think.




Rumours of prostitutes in hotel rooms. But even that would wash off him, people know what a letch he is.


----------



## IFocus

Darc Knight said:


> I'm worried what kind of damaging evidence Putin and the KGB might be blackmailing Trump with.
> He'd be ripe pickings you'd think.




It's the Russian money behind Trump's businesses that hold sway over Trump the US banks stop lending to him years ago.


----------



## McLovin

IFocus said:


> 43% approval and didn't move when separating kids from their parents.
> 
> Will be interesting if the patriots start thinking he is a traitor.......unlikely




I don't think there's a developed country that is more jingoistic than America, especially as you slide down the socio-economic scale. It serves a useful purpose though. How else do you raise a volunteer army to fight wars on the other side of the world? He'll take a hit in the polls for this. How long it lasts and how deep it is we will have to wait and see.

I see this morning Trump believes that Russia is no longer targeting the US. Oh wait, no he was answering a different question. I don't like conspiracy theories, but that Steele dossier would certainly explain the pattern of behaviour.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Rumours of prostitutes in hotel rooms. But even that would wash off him, people know what a letch he is.




One of the alleged incidents was that Trump organised to be the same room President Obama had stayed in in Russia and paid a couple of prostitutes to dance on the bed and xiss on it as show. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/15/17233994/comey-interview-trump-pee-tape-russia


----------



## basilio

*Queen Trolls Trump !*


* Was the Queen sending coded messages to Donald Trump via her brooches? Absolutely *
On the first day of his visit, she wore a brooch given to her as a mark of friendship by the Obamas. By the end of the trip, it was Queen’s brooches 3, Trump 0

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion...s-to-donald-trump-via-her-brooches-absolutely


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> That's true, but it's a matter of how many supporters he has left.
> 
> If his trade policies result in a loss of jobs in the agricultural and industrial sector then he's dead meat electorally.





in excess of 40% registered voters apparently, which might translate into a much higher % of poll voters.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> One of the alleged incidents was that Trump organised to be the same room President Obama had stayed in in Russia and paid a couple of prostitutes to dance on the bed and xiss on it as show.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/2018/4/15/17233994/comey-interview-trump-pee-tape-russia



Jesus....

Trump more than likely wanted to look good by ending the eternal cold front with Russia. He probably wasn't expecting that much blowback. 
Dealing with Russians in business isn't a big deal. As US president  its a really big deal.


----------



## wayneL

So essentially,  the Authors believes the Queen is trolling Trump,  appalling disrespect basically,  yet howls about Trump not slavishly kissing her 4ss. 

The astonishing thing is that because of their pathology, they have no idea of their megalithic hypocrisy. 

If the Queen truly was trolling Trump (which I doubt) ,  then I have lost all respect  for her



basilio said:


> *Queen Trolls Trump !*
> 
> 
> * Was the Queen sending coded messages to Donald Trump via her brooches? Absolutely *
> On the first day of his visit, she wore a brooch given to her as a mark of friendship by the Obamas. By the end of the trip, it was Queen’s brooches 3, Trump 0
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/fashion...s-to-donald-trump-via-her-brooches-absolutely


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> So essentially,  the Authors believes the Queen is trolling Trump,  appalling disrespect basically,  yet howls about Trump not slavishly kissing her 4ss.
> 
> The astonishing thing is that because of their pathology, they have no idea of their megalithic hypocrisy.
> 
> If the Queen truly was trolling Trump (which I doubt) ,  then I have lost all respect  for her




Donald trump is the mopst appalling excuse for a President anyone has ever seen. His  wanton destruction of  the European alliance, his undermining of  foreign leaders that aren't authoritarian thugs takes you to one conclusion - he wants to President for life.

And the Queen decides to quietly show who has respect for.  Good on her.


----------



## Darc Knight

Trump doesn't seem to get along with any of the World's Leaders except for Kim and Vladimir lol


----------



## basilio

I really will have to check my posts... So many bads...


----------



## basilio

Darc Knight said:


> Trump doesn't seem to get along with any of the World's Leaders except for Kim and Vladimir lol



 Not quite true Darc.  He is very supportive of the new Polish PM, the Turkish PM as well the Phillipines strong man. See any pattern there ?


----------



## basilio

*6 Strongmen Trump Has Praised — And The Conflicts It Presents*

May 2, 201711:43 AM ET


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> in excess of 40% registered voters apparently, which might translate into a much higher % of poll voters.




Well, that's just saying that 60% disapprove.


----------



## moXJO

Some hard truths.


----------



## notting

wayneL said:


> So essentially,  the Authors believes the Queen is trolling Trump,  appalling disrespect basically,  yet howls about Trump not slavishly kissing her 4ss.
> 
> The astonishing thing is that because of their pathology, they have no idea of their megalithic hypocrisy.
> 
> If the Queen truly was trolling Trump (which I doubt) ,  then I have lost all respect  for her




When a president visits the queen one imagines he would a offer gift on behalf of the 'People of the United States' The queen wearing it could just as easily be a sign of respect and show of gratitude for the friendship of the US by wearing the broach 'they' gave her last time!!
She also could just be fishing for another one!


----------



## notting




----------



## notting

moXJO said:


> Some hard truths.





Yes but, we haven't exactly had enough time to see what Putin does next, have we..........?


----------



## basilio

Excellent analysis of what is happening via the Trump presidency

*There's no doubt we’re watching the weirdest of presidencies*
Waleed Aly19 July 2018 — 11:10am

Send via Email
There’s no doubt we’re watching the weirdest of presidencies. But if, as I suspect, Donald Trump is a reflection of our times rather than someone who shapes them, it follows there is plenty of weirdness to go around. What Trump has done in his unhinged way is show how the world is inverted, with people quite happy to embrace positions they would only recently have considered heresy.

You can see this if you look past the weirdness of an American president seriously trying to convince us he just accidentally said the opposite of what he meant when he attacked his own intelligence agencies so clearly, preferring the word of his Russian counterpart.
So people who were once suspicious of American intelligence agencies – you know, because they massively misled us over Iraq’s weapons program and helped precipitate perhaps the worst foreign policy mistake since Vietnam – suddenly seem to think it’s treasonous for a president to dismiss them.

Meanwhile, it’s the super-patriots who so enthusiastically supported this most conspicuously patriotic of presidents – and who despise any hint of American weakness on the world stage – who seem to have little problem with the fact that Trump just genuflected before the Russian president. Not just any foreign leader – the leader of America’s cartoon enemy of 70 years.

Polls have now emerged showing that only 55 per cent of Americans disapprove of how Trump handled the occasion. That’s roughly the same number who disapprove of Trump generally. His approval rating has stayed still. Bottom line, this seems to have been a moment when everyone gets angry, but no one changes their mind.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...weirdest-of-presidencies-20180719-p4zscr.html


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Excellent analysis of what is happening via the Trump presidency
> 
> *There's no doubt we’re watching the weirdest of presidencies*
> Waleed Aly19 July 2018 — 11:10am
> 
> Send via Email
> There’s no doubt we’re watching the weirdest of presidencies. But if, as I suspect, Donald Trump is a reflection of our times rather than someone who shapes them, it follows there is plenty of weirdness to go around. What Trump has done in his unhinged way is show how the world is inverted, with people quite happy to embrace positions they would only recently have considered heresy.
> 
> You can see this if you look past the weirdness of an American president seriously trying to convince us he just accidentally said the opposite of what he meant when he attacked his own intelligence agencies so clearly, preferring the word of his Russian counterpart.
> So people who were once suspicious of American intelligence agencies – you know, because they massively misled us over Iraq’s weapons program and helped precipitate perhaps the worst foreign policy mistake since Vietnam – suddenly seem to think it’s treasonous for a president to dismiss them.
> 
> Meanwhile, it’s the super-patriots who so enthusiastically supported this most conspicuously patriotic of presidents – and who despise any hint of American weakness on the world stage – who seem to have little problem with the fact that Trump just genuflected before the Russian president. Not just any foreign leader – the leader of America’s cartoon enemy of 70 years.
> 
> Polls have now emerged showing that only 55 per cent of Americans disapprove of how Trump handled the occasion. That’s roughly the same number who disapprove of Trump generally. His approval rating has stayed still. Bottom line, this seems to have been a moment when everyone gets angry, but no one changes their mind.
> https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...weirdest-of-presidencies-20180719-p4zscr.html



We really need to talk about Obama and Hillary as well. Obama tapped trump and hillary had the pee pee dossier made up from a private spy who was courting the Russians. Geese you think the Russians might of noticed the muck raking?
Isn't hillary in fact paying an ex-spy to pay the Russians for dirt on trump. Kind of close to what they accused trump of.

 The dems also had a private company check their emails (had a large portion go missing) and private server after it was hacked. This is the company that declared Russian involvement to begin with. Private servers,  private companies,  missing emails, what were they hiding? 

There are stories on both sides here.


----------



## SirRumpole

> There are stories on both sides here.




Yeah, one released their tax returns, the other didn't.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37062123


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah, one released their tax returns, the other didn't.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37062123




He did have them leaked for the couple years when it was really good. 

There aren't many of those given his business genius and generosity... but yea, information control my friend. 

As honest Abe once says, it's better to be assumed you're financially broke, spent your "charity" money on yourself... then release the tax returns to remove all doubts.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> We really need to talk about Obama and Hillary as well. Obama tapped trump and hillary had the pee pee dossier made up from a private spy who was courting the Russians. Geese you think the Russians might of noticed the muck raking?
> Isn't hillary in fact paying an ex-spy to pay the Russians for dirt on trump. Kind of close to what they accused trump of.
> 
> The dems also had a private company check their emails (had a large portion go missing) and private server after it was hacked. This is the company that declared Russian involvement to begin with. Private servers,  private companies,  missing emails, what were they hiding?
> 
> There are stories on both sides here.




I heard that it was the Clintons and their DNC that wanted Trump to win the Republican nomination.

What with him being a blowhard billionaire who grabs women and hate colored people while she, well, she just want to make her mamma proud.


----------



## basilio

I find the madness of Trumps Presidency does my head in. A constant barrage of mad tweets, changing topics every couple of hours, no logic, little truth. Crazy xhit. I'm quite sure that I'm not Robinson Crusoe.

Anyway I came across an excellent explanation of what Donald Trump is doing. Be interested to hear other thoughts on this analysis.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I find the madness of Trumps Presidency does my head in. A constant barrage of mad tweets, changing topics every couple of hours, no logic, little truth. Crazy xhit. I'm quite sure that I'm not Robinson Crusoe.
> 
> Anyway I came across an excellent explanation of what Donald Trump is doing. Be interested to hear other thoughts on this analysis.





Reiche gave Trump too much credit I think. 

I agree with Chomsky's recent observation that, yes, Trump is just a distraction. A diversionary tactic. But Trump is not the mastermind. He's part of the "masters of mankind", doing his bits to distract the plebs while *both* parties loots the state treasury for those who really matter.

The democrats didn't put up much of a fight, if any, on "Trump's" military budgets; or tax cuts to the uber rich. They don't give two shiets about refugees and separated children; don't care about the consumer financial protection or the recent rolling back of what depositor's protection on "small" banks.

Small banks are defined as those with assets under $250B. That's one rich mom and pop operation right there. They can now help small businesses and local communities by being able to speculate with depositor's savings 

So yes, Trump is a distraction. But he's not doing it to hide his other sleight of hand. It's a big club, both parties were invited.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> I find the madness of Trumps Presidency does my head in. A constant barrage of mad tweets, changing topics every couple of hours, no logic, little truth. Crazy xhit. I'm quite sure that I'm not Robinson Crusoe.
> 
> Anyway I came across an excellent explanation of what Donald Trump is doing. Be interested to hear other thoughts on this analysis.





I'm not sure you even need such a sophisticated analysis to tell what Trump is doing, it's pretty obvious that a sleazy businessman turned an even sleazier politician, but he's following the rules of all facists, create enemies and get people mobilised to fight each other and not him.


----------



## basilio

The games being played by the US.  Interesting story on the riots in Iraq.

*The US, electricity and Iran: What's behind the Iraq protests?*
As protests continue across southern Iraq, some are questioning the role of the US in the ongoing unrest.


----------



## moXJO

> Donald Trump is leading a double life. In the west, most foreign policy experts see him as reckless, unpredictable and self-defeating. But though many in Asia dislike him as much as the Europeans, they see him as a more substantial figure. I have just spent a week in Beijing talking to officials and intellectuals, many of whom are awed by his skill as a strategist and tactician.
> 
> One of the people I met was the former vice-foreign minister He Yafei. He shot to global prominence in 2009 when he delivered a finger-wagging lecture to President Barack Obama at the Copenhagen climate conference before blowing up hopes of a deal. He is somewhat less belligerent where Mr Trump is concerned. He worries that strategic competition has become the new normal and says that “trade wars are just the tip of the iceberg”.
> 
> Few Chinese think that Mr Trump’s primary concern is to rebalance the bilateral trade deficit. If it were, they say, he would have aligned with the EU, Japan and Canada against China rather than scooping up America’s allies in his tariff dragnet. They think the USpresident’s goal is nothing less than remaking the global order.
> 
> 
> They think Mr Trump feels he is presiding over the relative decline of his great nation. It is not that the current order does not benefit the US. The problem is that it benefits others more in relative terms. To make things worse the US is investing billions of dollars and a fair amount of blood in supporting the very alliances and international institutions that are constraining America and facilitating China’s rise.
> 
> In Chinese eyes, Mr Trump’s response is a form of “creative destruction”. He is systematically destroying the existing institutions — from the World Trade Organization and the North American Free Trade Agreement to Nato and the Iran nuclear deal — as a first step towards renegotiating the world order on terms more favourable to Washington.
> 
> Once the order is destroyed, the Chinese elite believes, Mr Trump will move to stage two: renegotiating America’s relationship with other powers. Because the US is still the most powerful country in the world, it will be able to negotiate with other countries from a position of strength if it deals with them one at a time rather than through multilateral institutions that empower the weak at the expense of the strong.
> 
> My interlocutors say that Mr Trump is the US first president for more than 40 years to bash China on three fronts simultaneously: trade, military and ideology. They describe him as a master tactician, focusing on one issue at a time, and extracting as many concessions as he can. They speak of the skilful way Mr Trump has treated President Xi Jinping. “Look at how he handled North Korea,” one says. “He got Xi Jinping to agree to UN sanctions [half a dozen] times, creating an economic stranglehold on the country. China almost turned North Korea into a sworn enemy of the country.” But they also see him as a strategist, willing to declare a truce in each area when there are no more concessions to be had, and then start again with a new front.
> 
> For the Chinese, even Mr Trump’s sycophantic press conference with Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, in Helsinki had a strategic purpose. They see it as Henry Kissinger in reverse. In 1972, the US nudged China off the Soviet axis in order to put pressure on its real rival, the Soviet Union. Today Mr Trump is reaching out to Russia in order to isolate China.
> 
> In the short term, China is talking tough in response to Mr Trump’s trade assault. At the same time they are trying to develop a multiplayer front against him by reaching out to the EU, Japan and South Korea. But many Chinese experts are quietly calling for a rethink of the longer-term strategy. They want to prepare the ground for a new grand bargain with the US based on Chinese retrenchment. Many feel that Mr Xi has over-reached and worry that it was a mistake simultaneously to antagonise the US economically and militarily in the South China Sea.
> 
> Instead, they advocate economic concessions and a pullback from the aggressive tactics that have characterised China’s recent foreign policy. They call for a Chinese variant of “splendid isolationism”, relying on growing the domestic market rather than disrupting other countries’ economies by exporting industrial surpluses.
> 
> So which is the real Mr Trump? The reckless reactionary destroying critical alliances, or the “stable genius” who is pressuring China? The answer seems to depend on where you ask the question. Things look different from Beijing than from Brussels.




Interesting take.


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> Interesting take.




Yes Trump has done some good things for the American economy. Pretty sure every step wasn't planned like the article suggests lol.
Of course Trump wants the economy to boom, he has a vested interest in it.
Wonder what the average black man/woman on minimum wage feels. Will the World be a better place post Trump?


----------



## wayneL

Darc Knight said:


> Yes Trump has done some good things for the American economy. Pretty sure every step wasn't planned like the article suggests lol.
> Of course Trump wants the economy to boom, he has a vested interest in it.
> Wonder what the average black man/woman on minimum wage feels. Will the World be a better place post Trump?



Black unemployment is the lowest EVAH! 

So,  yes it will, so long as the deranged left keep losing power


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> So, yes it will, so long as the deranged left keep losing power




Leaning to the Left again wayne ?


----------



## McLovin

SirRumpole said:


> Leaning to the Left again wayne ?




LOL.


----------



## wayneL

You guys don't really get it do you? There is the left and then there is the deranged left, they are two completely different Beasts.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> You guys don't really get it do you? There is the left and then there is the deranged left, they are two completely different Beasts.




So what Lefty US or Australian pollies are acceptable to you wayne ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> So what Lefty US or Australian pollies are acceptable to you wayne ?



I liked Crean,  I reckon he got dudded. I like Albo and a few others.. Dreyfuss etc.  I have a shitload of respect for Steven Pinker in academia, and there are quite a few others. 

Many will argue whether Hawke an Keating were truly left,  but they were a great team. 

There are a lot of left of center thinkers I really like too. 

Some of those are economically fuether left than I like,  but always prepared to listen to their points. 

Just off the top of my head


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Many will argue whether Hawke an Keating were truly left, but they were a great team.




The best politicians in my view are realists with a heart, and those two were.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Yes Trump has done some good things for the American economy. Pretty sure every step wasn't planned like the article suggests lol.
> Of course Trump wants the economy to boom, he has a vested interest in it.
> Wonder what the average black man/woman on minimum wage feels. Will the World be a better place post Trump?



Yeah possibly more chinese

I think the reshaping of the world order is a must do.
China can't be contained and will open an opposing axis to US current partnerships.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> The best politicians in my view are realists with a heart, and those two were.



One was a realist the other a pisspot loudmouth.


----------



## Darc Knight

Keating was NSW Labor right - middle of the road or as close to as a Lib or Labor can be. That middle of the road position was the trend in "the West" around then.
I'm shocked ASF's President of the Deranged Trump Fan Boy Club is a fan of Keating


----------



## Darc Knight

The interesting thing about Trump is that he's like no other President. Therefore, he would have a set of skills (good or bad) that should be able to solve problems other "traditional" Presidents haven't been able to solve. 
While I don't respect Trump due to his past, I am intrigued to see how his different set of skills (and perceptions) deal with problems.


----------



## Tisme

Well now he's agreeing to a tripartite agreement between his country, our country and Japan to build our own synthetic silk road in competition to China's.


----------



## PZ99

Darc Knight said:


> The interesting thing about Trump is that he's like no other President. Therefore, he would have a set of skills (good or bad) that should be able to solve problems other "traditional" Presidents haven't been able to solve.
> While I don't respect Trump due to his past, I am intrigued to see how his different set of skills (and perceptions) deal with problems.



Sums up my position on this as well. The people voted for change and that's what they got.

I do think a second term would be more dangerous though.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> The best politicians in my view are realists with a heart, and those two were.




When there are watershed moments around the world, the electorates/representatives seem to pickup up on the cues and install Labor govts:

CUrtin & Chifley WW2 and post war self sufficiency and industrialisation
Whitlam and social and trade cognisance 
Hawke & Keating global mercantile & economic expansion 
Rudd/Gillard global economic malaise

now the rise of China and disintegration of European union presents a threat that puts Labor in the hot seat, but it will probably lose because it no longer has a strong man persona, focusing more on petticoat politics instead of survival and strengthening of the tribe.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> but it will probably lose because it no longer has a strong man persona, focusing more on petticoat politics instead of survival and strengthening of the tribe.




True, but in contrast you a have a Liberal Party whose sole economic policy is to give tax cuts to people who don't need it.

The hip pocket usually wins.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> True, but in contrast you a have a Liberal Party whose sole economic policy is to give tax cuts to people who don't need it.
> 
> The hip pocket usually wins.




Like it or not, the Libs were never an economy based party. Menzies relegated economics as a consequence of activity, Whitlam scratched the surface of the old skool practices by changing the party focus from democratic socialism to socially democratic programs that tended to exceed the Libs constrained liberalism by opening up opportunity for lower middle class wealth creation and rural revitalisation through external trade opportunities and tarriff reductions.

Labor, under Keating dismantled the moribund Menzian/Frasier economic models of activity driving economics and reworked them into the economy driving activity; the LNP have never quite caught up to that mantra, preferring simple levers that work in a household budget scenario (lower costs, lower quality, use old tools and appliances, recycle, etc), but ignore the need to value ad our strengths and build infrastructure to carry that forward.... too long hanging off Britain and USA economic coattails.


----------



## Junior

Trump attempting to blow the budget deficit even further out of the water, and provide more tax breaks to the wealthiest 1% of americans.  It's mind-blowing to me, that his supporter base can't see they are being absolutely screwed by their supreme leader.  

Whoever comes into power post-Trump is going to be left with a mess of a budget to deal with, and likely with a rising unemployment rate to go with it.

https://www.afr.com/markets/equity-...ential-135b-boost-for-wealthy-20180730-h13cpp



> According to the budget model used by the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, indexing capital gains to inflation would reduce government revenues by $US102 billion over a decade, with 86 per cent of the benefits going to the top 1 per cent.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Trump attempting to blow the budget deficit even further out of the water, and provide more tax breaks to the wealthiest 1% of americans.  It's mind-blowing to me, that his supporter base can't see they are being absolutely screwed by their supreme leader.
> 
> Whoever comes into power post-Trump is going to be left with a mess of a budget to deal with, and likely with a rising unemployment rate to go with it.
> 
> https://www.afr.com/markets/equity-...ential-135b-boost-for-wealthy-20180730-h13cpp




The baby boomers are about to retire in droves which means the Social Security Trust Fund that the various Presidents have used to fund spending will start emptying. If payroll receipts don't build up to compensate the loss of trust money to retiring baby boomers then treasury bond interest rates will be forced up and along with it taxation. The USA will become vulnerable to debt, the dollar value will fall, offshore investors will get paid less, demand will fall, China and Japan will buy more securities to fund US consumer demand for their exports and keep their currencies low,  until it becomes a basket case and they will pull out for the new markets elsewhere.

Donald Trump would know this, thus why he's trying to build a domestic industry to support a domestic market which will put pressure on the overseas competition to start building its own payroll receipts.


----------



## Knobby22

Tisme said:


> The baby boomers are about to retire in droves which means the Social Security Trust Fund that the various Presidents have used to fund spending will start emptying. If payroll receipts don't build up to compensate the loss of trust money to retiring baby boomers then treasury bond interest rates will be forced up and along with it taxation. The USA will become vulnerable to debt, the dollar value will fall, offshore investors will get paid less, demand will fall, China and Japan will buy more securities to fund US consumer demand for their exports and keep their currencies low,  until it becomes a basket case and they will pull out for the new markets elsewhere.
> 
> Donald Trump would know this, thus why he's trying to build a domestic industry to support a domestic market which will put pressure on the overseas competition to start building its own payroll receipts.




Trump started by saying he would cut military spending and improve infrastructure.
Instead he has done the opposite. the whole place is decaying. The debt is rising rapidly and for what?
Cambodia has just become a colony of China in effect. Who's next?


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Trump started by saying he would cut military spending and improve infrastructure.
> Instead he has done the opposite. the whole place is decaying. The debt is rising rapidly and for what?
> Cambodia has just become a colony of China in effect. Who's next?




Thailand? Or at least the southern part where they're planning a Thai Canal to bypass Singapore and the Malacca Strait. 

But Trump's building a wall though. A wall is technically an infrastructure. 

And this just in.....

Trump is "planning" to give investor $100B capital gains tax relief. 

You see, paying 20% on profit gained in the capital market is good. But it's gooder if the tax code define "profit" properly... as in, profits have to be adjusted for inflation to be "real". 

That's just plain common sense. 

Take the income from labour. Well, they're taken... I mean, use it as an example. Wages haven't grown in any real sense; workers are more experienced, more knowledgeable, more productive with each day of work but their wages remain the same... So you tax them more?  


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ns-tax-cut-for-wealthy-ny-times-idUSKBN1KK2GL


----------



## Junior

luutzu said:


> Trump is "planning" to give investor $100B capital gains tax relief.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ns-tax-cut-for-wealthy-ny-times-idUSKBN1KK2GL




It would be interesting to know how much Trump and his immediate family would personally gain in $$ terms, should this policy be implemented.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Thailand? Or at least the southern part where they're planning a Thai Canal to bypass Singapore and the Malacca Strait.



Thai population ain't that friendly with the Chinese. Chinese have been spending up big in Thailand though.
Thais are more patriotic then Americans. They won't bow.


----------



## moXJO

Junior said:


> It would be interesting to know how much Trump and his immediate family would personally gain in $$ terms, should this policy be implemented.



He would be trying to get investors to start spending in the US.


----------



## luutzu

Junior said:


> It would be interesting to know how much Trump and his immediate family would personally gain in $$ terms, should this policy be implemented.




Don't know about this new proposal but heard that his family got about $1.5B from last year's $1.5T tax cuts.

but that's over 10 years so it's nothing really. What's important to the donald is american greatness 'cause he doesn't need the money. I guess it just kinda fall into him because he's awesome.

His daughter and peace envoy son in law also pocketed about $100M last year from their business ventures. 

Some people have lots of talent man. Solving the Middle East peace crisis, advising the president of the united states... and still have time to earn that stash. 

Might end up in prison though. But then that's what presidential pardon is for.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Thai population ain't that friendly with the Chinese. Chinese have been spending up big in Thailand though.
> Thais are more patriotic then Americans. They won't bow.




Nobody bow to anybody. But that's what big guns are for. 

Well, there's a few Muslims in that area so.. you know how Muslims are. Always picking fights and terrorising people... what else can Beijing do but send in a few battalion to keep the peace.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> He would be trying to get investors to start spending in the US.




No he doesn't. 

For the well to do, the whole world's a market place. 

The tax cuts will just fuel the financial markets, makes "everybody" rich... except those who didn't invest in stocks, didn't get the tax cuts, poor or young or old or sick. Beside those, everybody's doing great.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Nobody bow to anybody. But that's what big guns are for.



You definitely don't know thais
They love biting off more than they can chew.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> No he doesn't.
> 
> For the well to do, the whole world's a market place.
> 
> The tax cuts will just fuel the financial markets, makes "everybody" rich... except those who didn't invest in stocks, didn't get the tax cuts, poor or young or old or sick. Beside those, everybody's doing great.



I'm not up to speed on the tax cut, but generally they want to attract investment back into the US when dishing out such cuts. 
I'd like to see the reasoning for it beyond "Trump is benefiting". Not saying that isn't the reason,  but like to see why they threw it on the table.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> You definitely don't know thais
> They love biting off more than they can chew.




It's going to be an interesting century that's for sure.

US Secretary of State, Tony Saprano, just announced some plan he has for the Asia-Pacific-Indo region. 

The last every time some white guys have plans for a place, they all ended up.. well, not well.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> I'm not up to speed on the tax cut, but generally they want to attract investment back into the US when dishing out such cuts.
> I'd like to see the reasoning for it beyond "Trump is benefiting". Not saying that isn't the reason,  but like to see why they threw it on the table.




Trump, like public servants, serves the business and monied elite. 

It is only through having the rich getting richer that the poor will be better of. It's like me wanting to give you money... I'd have to give to myself and all my friends first... and through them having money you too can have money, maybe. Let's try it a few more times to make it it didn't fail because we didn't try hard enough.

Where was I?  Oh yea... Trump getting a few bucks is just Trump learning from the comrades in Beijing. Unlike Bush or Obama, Trump got a few corporations and children of directorship age. That mean you can pay him through his kids instead of only through some book deals and invitations to fancy parties and a few cruises to your islands,


----------



## Junior

moXJO said:


> He would be trying to get investors to start spending in the US.




There are many ways to do that without gifting $100 billion to a handful of uber-wealthy individuals.

The difference between US and Australian politics at the moment is stark.  They might get through a policy which overwhelmingly benefits the top 0.10%.  

Yet over here Malcolm is struggling with tax cuts which cuts rates for taxpayers and companies at all income levels, merely because higher income earners also derive some benefit.


----------



## McLovin

Junior said:


> Yet over here Malcolm is struggling with tax cuts which cuts rates for taxpayers and companies at all income levels, merely because higher income earners also derive some benefit.




Because in America the turkeys have been voting for Christmas for decades. They've run down education to the point that you can tell the GOP base virtually anything and they'll believe it to be in their interests as long as you fear God and love guns. The system is the US is so entrenched against the poor and increasingly against the cratering middle class. It's literally killing millions of Americans.


That Trump tax cut is farcical, CG is already taxed at a reduced rate, and clearly being pushed through by the GOP because they have a strong feeling they will lose the house in November.

Oh yeah, and the CPI is a great measure of the cost of living pressures for a billionaire.


----------



## luutzu

Junior said:


> There are many ways to do that without gifting $100 billion to a handful of uber-wealthy individuals.
> 
> The difference between US and Australian politics at the moment is stark.  They might get through a policy which overwhelmingly benefits the top 0.10%.
> 
> Yet over here Malcolm is struggling with tax cuts which cuts rates for taxpayers and companies at all income levels, merely because higher income earners also derive some benefit.




They'll get it through. Giving tax cuts and military spending will always get through. 

In his first military budget, Trump proposes something like $600B. Both the republican and democrats thought... what! That's too little. We need another $70B. 

Seriously. Not making that up. 

But when it comes to fixing their contaminated water system, funding public schools so that kids don't freeze in class - or just not have fungus growing on the ceiling... how are we going to pay for that?


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> s. They've run down education to the point that you can tell the GOP base virtually anything and they'll believe it to be in their interests as long as you fear God and love guns. The system is the US is so entrenched against the poor and increasingly against the cratering middle class. It's literally killing millions of Americans.



IIRC,  this is precisely the thinking that caused Hillary to have her 4ss handed to her. 

Honestly with the Dem focus on "socialism",  identity and gender politics above all else, it's drawing a bloody long bow to slag off one side of the voter base, not to mention, stupidly inaccurate.

Rhetorical hyperbole is one thing,  but one shouldnt purport that as fact.


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> Honestly with the Dem focus on "socialism", identity and gender politics above all else, it's drawing a bloody long bow to slag off one side of the voter base, not to mention, stupidly inaccurate.




Fear God...












Love guns...











WHile this happens






You think it's just coincidence that the GOP increasingly skews so strongly to those two groups?

And as for the US education system, there are piles of research about what a disaster it is. The poor never get to college and the middle class are getting killed with student loans and low paying jobs.


----------



## wayneL

Great. I'm joining a church,  not because I fear God,  but as identitarian warfare. 

I'm  fixin' to get offended. 

Ready for Trump term 2?


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> Great. I'm joining a church,  not because I fear God,  but as identitarian warfare.
> 
> I'm  fixin' to get offended.
> 
> Ready for Trump term 2?




Huh?

I have no idea what this rambling rubbish means.


----------



## wayneL

McLovin said:


> Huh?
> 
> I have no idea what this rambling rubbish means.



That makes two of us. 

I just want to defend my culture against the regressive left and alien instruments thereof. 

You'll understand once the s4it hits the fan.


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> That makes two of us.
> 
> I just want to defend my culture against the regressive left and alien instruments thereof.
> 
> You'll understand once the s4it hits the fan.




OK mate. Have fun with that.


----------



## wayneL

You don't think our culture is worth defending?


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> You don't think our culture is worth defending?




That's an odd supposition.


----------



## wayneL

Not really mate 

Because,  it will need defending at some point in the future, probably sooner rather than later.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Not really mate
> 
> Because,  it will need defending at some point in the future, probably sooner rather than later.




From what ?


----------



## McLovin

wayneL said:


> Not really mate
> 
> Because,  it will need defending at some point in the future, probably sooner rather than later.




That wasn't the supposition. I can spot a declarative question from 100 yards. In fog.


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> The last every time some white guys have plans for a place, they all ended up.. well, not well.




The white guys do a much 'nicer' job than the Chinese.  You end up with places like Hong Kong, South Korea and even Taiwan. None of whom want to be back  in the arms of the mother fuc@er land of psychopathic torture, extortion environmental destruction - CHINA.

You also need to get Putin's soft voice plant for tards, Chomsky, out of your head. 
Also your illumitardi ideas about the Clinton's and the 'elite's sitting in the shadows that you think they work for, whom no one seems to know who they are because the don't exist.  Their all out in the open and are often at odds with each other and policies from left and right. There is no illumitardi conspiracy that you've brainwashed yourself into by reading to much Chomsky and watching Info wars like Youtube clips.

Get your head out of that and your analysis will become much clearer.


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> The white guys do a much 'nicer' job than the Chinese.  You end up with places like Hong Kong, South Korea and even Taiwan. None of whom want to be back  in the arms of the mother fuc@er land of psychopathic torture, extortion environmental destruction - CHINA.




Would be the same whoever the master race is.

Those colonies that does better than others are so because their master have a different role and function assigned to them.


----------



## moXJO

Isn't the US economy at the highest gdp, jobs growth hitting highs and unemployment low. 
As for the schools thats an issue in australia as well. 
Americans specialize in a field,  where as Aussies  tend to know a little about a lot. 
If I want to go as in depth about a subject as I can go, I'd head to the US.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Isn't the US economy at the highest gdp, jobs growth hitting highs and unemployment low.
> As for the schools thats an issue in australia as well.
> Americans specialize in a field,  where as Aussies  tend to know a little about a lot.
> If I want to go as in depth about a subject as I can go, I'd head to the US.




Debt is also not soaring past historical highs either.

health report:

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/indicators


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> Would be the same whoever the master race is.




According to you, and most others out there, Whites have been the master race for centuries.
But not in many parts of Asia were China is becoming far more 'masterful'
Yet White'y never did this systematically to all those nations it  'colonised even 55 years after the initial invasion.







Activists claim Tibetan nuns are being illegally detained, sexually abused and brutally gang-raped at "political re-education" centers run by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in this Himalayan region, part of a broader move to smother Tibetan culture.

On May 28, the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD) published a report titled "Torture and Sexual Abuse Rampant in China's 'Political Re-education' Centers." This isn't the first report to shine a light on how China is "normalizing" its violations of human rights in Tibet.

It cites the testimony of a monk who wrote an account of what he saw and heard at one such center in Sog County of Nagchu district in Tibet. This was reportedly funneled in secret to the TCHRD's office overseas.

While the monk was studying at a monastery in China's Qinghai province, which shares a border with Tibet, he said government officials turned up one day and warned he would face a series of punishments if he didn't leave immediately.

They gave him an ultimatum: Go back to Tibet or see your family arrested, your family's kids barred from school, and your relatives prohibited from collecting caterpillar fungus, an expensive herbal remedy that people in the region use to buttress their incomes.

Finally he was detained in a political re-education center. Officials insisted it was not a prison but "a school," he said, adding he quickly realized that was a lie.

Most of those detained at the center were monks and nuns who were expelled from the Larung Gar Buddhist Academy or Yarchen Gar Buddhist Institute, he said. Both Buddhist training venues were demolished by the CCP.

According to the monk's testimony, the aim was to "brainwash" them on political and ideological grounds by forcing them to memorize "red" (Communist) songs, make them undergo Chinese military training, and instructing them to criticize and denounce their peers and spiritual leaders, including the Dalai Lama.

The Chinese resorted to torture, the most egregious example of which was the molestation of Buddhist nuns, wrote the monk, who had been detained for several months when he penned his account.

"A lot of the nuns would faint during their military training and the supervisors would rush them to their rooms. I saw them fondle their breasts and grope them all over," he wrote.

"I heard some of the supervisors took advantage of the unconscious nuns in other ways back back at their rooms," he added.

Claims of Party cadres sexually assaulting nuns date back to the (1966-76) Cultural Revolution, or even earlier.

At that time, the (officially atheist) Party mandated that monks and nuns must marry. It forced many to engage in sexual intercourse openly in a bid to smash their religious beliefs and force them to resume a secular life.

In November 1988, Britain's BBC broadcast a documentary shot secretly in Tibet detailing the experiences of 12 Tibetans who had suffered abuse at the hands of the Party.

One nun broke down and cried as she recalled the appalling treatment she had suffered.

"My abusers handcuffed me, brought me to a police station and pushed me to the ground," she said.

"They stepped on my face, Tasered my chest and kicked me. Then they took off our clothes and three or four people raped us with a baton."

Another nun added: "We were constantly raped by seven or eight people. They left us naked."

There are many recorded cases of Tibetan Buddhist nuns being raped by police and prison guards of the Communist Party.

Some activists claim this is a deliberate policy to weaken the influence of Buddhist temples, as the nuns cannot keep serving the order once they have been "defiled."

But while these centers were primarily focused on stifling dissent or any perceived threat to the Communist Party's rule through means of suppression, they are now more aggressively trying to "educationally transform" their wards.

Former inmates say the conditions have become more militarized and prison-camp-like, with forced marches, drills and patriotic songs now the norm.

Critics say Beijing is trying to break them down spiritually by insulting their beliefs and subjecting them to acts that go against their religion and put them in a quandary, unable to resume monastic life upon their release.

They want to separate Tibetan intellectuals, monks and nuns from their traditions and beliefs and turn them into Party-abiding Han Chinese, activists claim.

Since the Party invaded Tibet in 1950, forcing a young Dalai Lama to flee to India for sanctuary in 1959, it has viewed these guardians of Tibet's traditional culture and religious beliefs as a threat.

Tibetan rights organizations are now urging the international community to intervene as this state-sanctioned oppression reaches what they describe as a "a new level of terror" with the centers seen as nothing more than "labor reform camps" in disguise.


The same and worse happens in East Turkistan (Also invaded and Occupied by China for over 50 years) to Muslims as well as force feeding them Alcohol every day during Ramadan.
We really don't want them running Australia which they are starting to do more and more.

Nor has Whitey master race ever done this to other Whities as did the Chinese Communist Party -  During his campaign of terror to eliminate real or imagined opponents of his regime, Mao Zedong set an official killing quota of one per thousand members of the population, although he tolerated up to three per thousand.
The idea was to keep the population in a general state of terror so they would never speak out against the Chinese Communist Party.  Nothing has changed since then, as you can see.

If only the English had stayed in China.  It would all be like Hong Kong and they never would have been through the hells and hells to come under the Chinese.


----------



## Tisme

notting said:


> According to you, and most others out there, Whites have been the master race for centuries.
> But not in many parts of Asia were China is becoming far more 'masterful'
> *Yet White'y never did this systematically to all those nations it  'colonised even 55 years after the initial invasion.*




Given enough time Guardian will revise history to show you are incorrect.


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> According to you, and most others out there, Whites have been the master race for centuries.
> But not in many parts of Asia were China is becoming far more 'masterful'
> Yet White'y never did this systematically to all those nations it  'colonised even 55 years after the initial invasion. The same and worse happens in East Turkistan to Muslims as well as force feeding them Alcohol every day during Ramadan.
> We really don't want them running Australia which they are starting to do more and more.
> 
> View attachment 88660
> 
> 
> Activists claim Tibetan nuns are being illegally detained, sexually abused and brutally gang-raped at "political re-education" centers run by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in this Himalayan region, part of a broader move to smother Tibetan culture.
> 
> On May 28, the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD) published a report titled "Torture and Sexual Abuse Rampant in China's 'Political Re-education' Centers." This isn't the first report to shine a light on how China is "normalizing" its violations of human rights in Tibet.
> 
> It cites the testimony of a monk who wrote an account of what he saw and heard at one such center in Sog County of Nagchu district in Tibet. This was reportedly funneled in secret to the TCHRD's office overseas.
> 
> While the monk was studying at a monastery in China's Qinghai province, which shares a border with Tibet, he said government officials turned up one day and warned he would face a series of punishments if he didn't leave immediately.
> 
> They gave him an ultimatum: Go back to Tibet or see your family arrested, your family's kids barred from school, and your relatives prohibited from collecting caterpillar fungus, an expensive herbal remedy that people in the region use to buttress their incomes.
> 
> Finally he was detained in a political re-education center. Officials insisted it was not a prison but "a school," he said, adding he quickly realized that was a lie.
> 
> Most of those detained at the center were monks and nuns who were expelled from the Larung Gar Buddhist Academy or Yarchen Gar Buddhist Institute, he said. Both Buddhist training venues were demolished by the CCP.
> 
> According to the monk's testimony, the aim was to "brainwash" them on political and ideological grounds by forcing them to memorize "red" (Communist) songs, make them undergo Chinese military training, and instructing them to criticize and denounce their peers and spiritual leaders, including the Dalai Lama.
> 
> The Chinese resorted to torture, the most egregious example of which was the molestation of Buddhist nuns, wrote the monk, who had been detained for several months when he penned his account.
> 
> "A lot of the nuns would faint during their military training and the supervisors would rush them to their rooms. I saw them fondle their breasts and grope them all over," he wrote.
> 
> "I heard some of the supervisors took advantage of the unconscious nuns in other ways back back at their rooms," he added.
> 
> Claims of Party cadres sexually assaulting nuns date back to the (1966-76) Cultural Revolution, or even earlier.
> 
> At that time, the (officially atheist) Party mandated that monks and nuns must marry. It forced many to engage in sexual intercourse openly in a bid to smash their religious beliefs and force them to resume a secular life.
> 
> In November 1988, Britain's BBC broadcast a documentary shot secretly in Tibet detailing the experiences of 12 Tibetans who had suffered abuse at the hands of the Party.
> 
> One nun broke down and cried as she recalled the appalling treatment she had suffered.
> 
> "My abusers handcuffed me, brought me to a police station and pushed me to the ground," she said.
> 
> "They stepped on my face, Tasered my chest and kicked me. Then they took off our clothes and three or four people raped us with a baton."
> 
> Another nun added: "We were constantly raped by seven or eight people. They left us naked."
> 
> There are many recorded cases of Tibetan Buddhist nuns being raped by police and prison guards of the Communist Party.
> 
> Some activists claim this is a deliberate policy to weaken the influence of Buddhist temples, as the nuns cannot keep serving the order once they have been "defiled."
> 
> But while these centers were primarily focused on stifling dissent or any perceived threat to the Communist Party's rule through means of suppression, they are now more aggressively trying to "educationally transform" their wards.
> 
> Former inmates say the conditions have become more militarized and prison-camp-like, with forced marches, drills and patriotic songs now the norm.
> 
> Critics say Beijing is trying to break them down spiritually by insulting their beliefs and subjecting them to acts that go against their religion and put them in a quandary, unable to resume monastic life upon their release.
> 
> They want to separate Tibetan intellectuals, monks and nuns from their traditions and beliefs and turn them into Party-abiding Han Chinese, activists claim.
> 
> Since the Party invaded Tibet in 1950, forcing a young Dalai Lama to flee to India for sanctuary in 1959, it has viewed these guardians of Tibet's traditional culture and religious beliefs as a threat.
> 
> Tibetan rights organizations are now urging the international community to intervene as this state-sanctioned oppression reaches what they describe as a "a new level of terror" with the centers seen as nothing more than "labor reform camps" in disguise.




Don't take what I say as somehow defending Chinese or Asian or any form of imperialism and its butcheries. 

They're all nasty. All States are violent. 

So to think that if, say, Western or democratic imperialists would be nicer or kinder on their subject... that's just not a reality. Never have. 

I think the only people who can stop the comrades in Beijing from those violence and act of genocide are the Chinese people themselves. No foreign power would care to, or would be able to, do it. 

And the only hope of that ever happening would be the Chinese people, I think anyway, growing richer and more informed about the world. They're not going to be more liberal and progressive if they're worried about starvation.

I mean, just look at the US. Segregation and legalised racism were in full swing until about the late 50s? That's not a long time ago. Just a few generation. 

Also happen to coincide with the American Middle Class growing richer and more educated and informed. 

Of course that doesn't mean imperialism stops. The US head honchos still go around the world liberating and bringing democracy to every one with good land and good resources. But they do it more discretely, with less violence; need a lot more convincing and public relation. 

That doesn't mean too much but it does mean some hundreds of thousands of lives are saved. I mean, crap, if the Western population are still stuck in the pre-50s... all US presidents would use MOABs, napalm, carpet bombing and flatten entire villages in one go. 

With more enlightened plebs, they can only put a couple craters into villages at a time. It's bad of course, just less bad. 

Or take Syria, or Iraq and their dictators. Those guys were bad, the country could do better. But when war breaks out... a whole lot worst.


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> Don't take what I say as somehow defending Chinese or Asian or any form of imperialism and its butcheries.
> 
> They're all nasty. All States are violent.
> 
> So to think that if, say, Western or democratic imperialists would be nicer or kinder on their subject... that's just not a reality. Never have.
> 
> I think the only people who can stop the comrades in Beijing from those violence and act of genocide are the Chinese people themselves. No foreign power would care to, or would be able to, do it.
> 
> And the only hope of that ever happening would be the Chinese people, I think anyway, growing richer and more informed about the world. They're not going to be more liberal and progressive if they're worried about starvation.
> 
> I mean, just look at the US. Segregation and legalised racism were in full swing until about the late 50s? That's not a long time ago. Just a few generation.
> 
> Also happen to coincide with the American Middle Class growing richer and more educated and informed.
> 
> Of course that doesn't mean imperialism stops. The US head honchos still go around the world liberating and bringing democracy to every one with good land and good resources. But they do it more discretely, with less violence; need a lot more convincing and public relation.
> 
> That doesn't mean too much but it does mean some hundreds of thousands of lives are saved. I mean, crap, if the Western population are still stuck in the pre-50s... all US presidents would use MOABs, napalm, carpet bombing and flatten entire villages in one go.
> 
> With more enlightened plebs, they can only put a couple craters into villages at a time. It's bad of course, just less bad.
> 
> Or take Syria, or Iraq and their dictators. Those guys were bad, the country could do better. But when war breaks out... a whole lot worst.




Chomsky false equivalencies on steroids.
You really should get that ugly old octopus off your face so you can see...


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> Chomsky false equivalencies on steroids.
> You really should get that ugly old octopus off your face so you can see...




If we ask a slave which master they'd rather have, the white or the yellow... they'd probably say they would rather have no master. 

So unless Uncle Sam goes to Asia to help free the Asians from Chinese imperialism for the sake of humanity, why would American imperialism be better than a Chinese one?

The good guys just don't do empire building. If they're in it, they're in it for the booty. All else are just PR.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> If we ask a slave which master they'd rather have, the white or the yellow... they'd probably say they would rather have no master.
> 
> So unless Uncle Sam goes to Asia to help free the Asians from Chinese imperialism for the sake of humanity, why would American imperialism be better than a Chinese one?
> 
> The good guys just don't do empire building. If they're in it, they're in it for the booty. All else are just PR.




You'll have to wait for a reply, because these guys are probably high powered 9-5 office boys and on the bus by now.


----------



## notting

Tisme said:


> You'll have to wait for a reply, because these guys are probably high powered 9-5 office boys and on the bus by now.




Yeah, probably not another unemployable sophomoric, making puerile observations on the state of global affairs, in a pathetic attempt to make him/herself feel better about his/her hapless and helpless lot in life sitting at home in his dank seamen smelling little room.
No, probably not Claiming to be nothing but the the innocent paralytic consequence of the elite having always conspired against him/her.
No. probably not claiming that it has nothing to do with one's self induced sense of inadequacy as a result of inability to commit to anything other than thrashing oneself unendingly under the desk to the latest pornafied pixel of a girl friend.  A life of sad mimickery of what it is to be a real man.
Yes that!  Rather than actually doing something by stepping up and taking the real world by the horns! Oh but rather wallow in endless justifications fed by the wrinkly old tit of Chomsky and co happily funded by Putin and his legion of memes and trolls.
Yes probably on the way home from a real job, or retired from such with wealth to spare. An elite, if you will.
Carry on dear........


----------



## Tisme

notting said:


> Yeah, probably not another unemployable sophomoric, making puerile observations on the state of global affairs, in a pathetic attempt to make him/herself feel better about his/her hapless and helpless lot in life sitting at home in his dank seamen smelling little room.
> No, probably not Claiming to be nothing but the the innocent paralytic consequence of the elite having always conspired against him/her.
> No. probably not claiming that it has nothing to do with one's self induced sense of inadequacy as a result of inability to commit to anything other than thrashing oneself unendingly under the desk to the latest pornafied pixel of a girl friend.  A life of sad mimickery of what it is to be a real man.
> Yes that!  Rather than actually doing something by stepping up and taking the real world by the horns! Oh but rather wallow in endless justifications fed by the wrinkly old tit of Chomsky and co happily funded by Putin and his legion of memes and trolls -
> Carry on dear........




Wot?

If you are talking about Chomsky he's just another of a long line of Wallys who think they have a monopoly on smarts.


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> Yeah, probably not another unemployable sophomoric, making puerile observations on the state of global affairs, in a pathetic attempt to make him/herself feel better about his/her hapless and helpless lot in life sitting at home in his dank seamen smelling little room.
> No, probably not Claiming to be nothing but the the innocent paralytic consequence of the elite having always conspired against him/her.
> No. probably not claiming that it has nothing to do with one's self induced sense of inadequacy as a result of inability to commit to anything other than thrashing oneself unendingly under the desk to the latest pornafied pixel of a girl friend.  A life of sad mimickery of what it is to be a real man.
> Yes that!  Rather than actually doing something by stepping up and taking the real world by the horns! Oh but rather wallow in endless justifications fed by the wrinkly old tit of Chomsky and co happily funded by Putin and his legion of memes and trolls.
> Yes probably on the way home from a real job, or retired from such with wealth to spare. An elite, if you will.
> Carry on dear........




Wait... I get a sense that you're insulting me. Dude, I got feelings man. 

Come on man, I know you hate the Comrades in China, who doesn't really. So it's all good. 

Just when we want to discuss "world affairs"... alright, talk rubbish... got to be more objective you know. Else it's just opinions.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Wait... I get a sense that you're insulting me. *Dude, I got feelings man. *
> 
> .




You do know you are only an avatar don't you?


----------



## notting

luutzu said:


> Wait... I get a sense that you're insulting me. Dude, I got feelings man




No. Not you. More like a particular 'spirit' I have a habit of beating to death as I have seen a lot of it's carnage on well meaning dudes in my time!!


----------



## luutzu

notting said:


> No. Not you. Just a particular 'spirit' I have a habit of beating to death as I have seen a lot of it's carnage on well meaning dudes in my time!!




Nothing wrong with hating evil, corrupt greed and ill gotten gains. Just as long as it's not done out of that sour-grape sense of excusing failed ambition. 

Some might hate greed and corruption and not hate wealth. The two don't have to be the same. 

Some might see the gaining of fortune dishonestly as something to despise and yet not necessarily hate great wealth... as long as it was gained honestly. Like what's his face... Cicero. Self-made, honest and honorable... yea alright he got his throat slit by Augustus but yea


----------



## Tisme

6,170 replies5,805 retweets23,689 likes





*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
“We already have a smoking gun about a campaign getting dirt on their opponent, it was Hillary Clinton. How is it OK for Hillary Clinton to proactively seek dirt from the Russians but the Trump campaign met at the Russians request and that is bad?” Marc Thiessen, Washington Post

16,540 replies13,213 retweets45,608 likes





*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
Looking back on history, who was treated worse, Alfonse Capone, legendary mob boss, killer and “Public Enemy Number One,” or Paul Manafort, political operative & Reagan/Dole darling, now serving solitary confinement - although convicted of nothing? Where is the Russian Collusion?

23,139 replies11,373 retweets41,376 likes





*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 7h7 hours ago
Russian Collusion with the Trump Campaign, one of the most successful in history, is a TOTAL HOAX. The Democrats paid for the phony and discredited Dossier which was, along with Comey, McCabe, Strzok and his lover, the lovely Lisa Page, used to begin the Witch Hunt. Disgraceful!


----------



## basilio

You and Trump make a great team don't you "12C" Tizzie. Just made for each each other I reckon.


----------



## Darc Knight

basilio said:


> You and Trump make a great team don't you "12C" Tizzie. Just made for each each other I reckon.




You see this everywhere Bas. Trump fan boys seem to admire and try to emulate Trump's lying, denying and other unethical tactics that Trump himself uses.


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> You see this everywhere Bas. Trump fan boys seem to admire and try to emulate Trump's lying, denying and other unethical tactics that Trump himself uses.




Puerile stuff guys ... lift your game, you sound like schoolboys


----------



## Darc Knight

Tisme said:


> Puerile stuff guys ... lift your game, you sound like schoolboys




You do make me laugh.

You think you'll ever seek preselection for the Liberal Democrats?


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> You do make me laugh.
> 
> You think you'll ever seek preselection for the Liberal Democrats?




Still gut knotted are we?  You're not bas' husband per chance?


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Still gut knotted are we?  You're not bas' husband per chance?




Ohhh .. How sweet !  I didn't realise you got so jealous "12C"Tizzie!! Anyhow Darc and I are just good friends

Don't worry we can still play together - if your nice of course.  You just shouldn't tell silly stories ..

By the way didn't you mention you had another meeting with the Federal Goverment higher uppers this morning ? Shouldn't you be on your way?


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Ohhh .. How sweet !  I didn't realise you got so jealous "12C"Tizzie!! Anyhow Darc and I are just good friends
> 
> Don't worry we can still play together - if your nice of course.  You just shouldn't tell silly stories ..
> 
> By the way didn't you mention you had another meeting with the Federal Goverment higher uppers this morning ? Shouldn't you be on your way?




Well you certainly act like a coupling so forgive me for believing that to still be true.

State and I had another one yesterday at 10am..... today I'm off to the big smoke for fun and profit. once I get out of my PJs.


----------



## Darc Knight

Tisme said:


> Still gut knotted are we?  You're not bas' husband per chance?




Cmon Mate. If you stand I'll vote for you if I can. There's a.Clive Palmer like humour to your nature.

You got "a little thing" for Bas hey!


----------



## Tink




----------



## basilio

A Retired US Officer quit Fox news becasue he believed they were going completly over the top with their conspiracy theories which have been feeding into the Trump administration song book. Check out the interview.


----------



## luutzu

Tink said:


>





You heard about the memo Trump's WH sent out to the Fortune 500 CEOs after Brett was nominated?

It sums up how much the pick loves 'merka and its struggling people. So he'll be a great Justice. 

jk.

It states how "business friendly" the guy is, so it'll be great. (Keep the campaign contributions coming alright?)


----------



## Tink




----------



## moXJO

Xi jinping under a bit of fire as the US trade wars intensifies.


----------



## basilio

How crooked is Donald Trump ? In a sense it goes without saying that Donald Trumps business career has been dodgy as hell. There are probably a thousand other business men with similar backgrounds - but of course only Donald is President.

So what could happen if a seriously good Attorny General turned their sights on Donald Trumps business interests and then the unbelievable way he has used his Presidency to profit his personal interests?

Check this out.

* The Woman Behind the New York Campaign to Take Down Trump *
Progressive favorite Zephyr Teachout promises to retool the powerful New York prosecutor’s office to go straight after Donald Trump. She’s not the only one. Is this the road Democrats want to go down?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/17/lock-him-up-donald-trump-zephyr-teachout-219367


----------



## basilio

If one cares to have a look at Donald Trumps business dealings with the Saudis the issue of corruption becomes crystal clear.
*Trump’s Conflicts of Interest in Saudi Arabia*
By Carolyn Kenney and John Norris Posted on June 14, 2017, 12:01 am





Saudi Press Agency via APEgyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, Saudi King Salman, U.S. first lady Melania Trump, and President Donald Trump visit the Global Center for Combating Extremist Ideology in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, May 21, 2017.
*Deals before diplomacy*
President Donald Trump’s early entanglements with Saudi Arabia largely consisted of wealthy Saudis buying his assets on the cheap as he veered time and again into bankruptcy. In 1991, Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal purchased Trump’s yacht, Trump Princess, after Trump was forced to surrender it to creditors because he was roughly $900 million in debt. Talal’s purchase provided Trump “with desperately needed cash” at the time, according to _Newsweek_. In 1995, Trump’s lenders pressured him to sell the Plaza Hotel in New York City, which Talal purchased for $325 million, $65 million less than what Trump paid for it in 1988. Over the years, Trump and Talal have exchanged Twitter jabs at one another. In one such exchange, the Saudi prince highlighted how he twice bailed Trump out, this coming after Trump retweeted an apparently Photoshopped image of Talal with television journalist Megyn Kelly, claiming the prince was a co-owner of Fox News.

https://www.americanprogress.org/is...33956/trumps-conflicts-interest-saudi-arabia/


----------



## wayneL

Zzz....zzz... Zzz


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Zzz....zzz... Zzz



Agree, he is no worse than the rest of them, it's just that we can see Trump more clearly.

Interesting current read,  "children of the matrix" David Icke, 2001


----------



## basilio

explod said:


> Agree, he is no worse than the rest of them, it's just that we can see Trump more clearly.
> 
> Interesting current read,  "children of the matrix" David Icke, 2001




Really explod ? No worse than than the rest of them? 
Just can't agree there. 
If you want to say there are shortcomings, short cuts, deceptions whatever with other Presidents I'd concur.
But honestly this President is trashing all the standards and conventions of the office. We now do not have a bar low enough for unacceptable behaviour.  
IMO that is way beyond any contemporaries.


----------



## explod

In fact he's better than the rest of them because we can see what he's up to.

And democracy, if you can't get  big money support you can't stand for president.  Democracy my eye.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Really explod ? No worse than than the rest of them?
> Just can't agree there.
> If you want to say there are shortcomings, short cuts, deceptions whatever with other Presidents I'd concur.
> But honestly this President is trashing all the standards and conventions of the office. We now do not have a bar low enough for unacceptable behaviour.
> IMO that is way beyond any contemporaries.



Naive.


----------



## Tisme

wayneL said:


> Naive.




All the marbles in one glass jar without a lid


----------



## IFocus

basilio said:


> Really explod ? No worse than than the rest of them?
> Just can't agree there.
> If you want to say there are shortcomings, short cuts, deceptions whatever with other Presidents I'd concur.
> But honestly this President is trashing all the standards and conventions of the office. We now do not have a bar low enough for unacceptable behaviour.
> IMO that is way beyond any contemporaries.




No other US President has degraded and attacked the institutions that hold up the very foundations of the Republic......none.

Trump is a criminal.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> No other US President has degraded and attacked the institutions that hold up the very foundations of the Republic......none.
> 
> Trump is a criminal.



In the fullness of time, I think people will see that you have that exactly the wrong way around.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> In the fullness of time, I think people will see that you have that exactly the wrong way around.




Trump's good for democracy, will he?

How?

Even the Pentagon couldn't justify Trump's planned military parade. $100M for a show seems a step too far, says the people who aren't exactly spend thrift and peaceniks.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> Trump's good for democracy, will he?
> 
> How?
> 
> Even the Pentagon couldn't justify Trump's planned military parade. $100M for a show seems a step too far, says the people who aren't exactly spend thrift and peaceniks.




Just wait and see Grasshopper. 

Lots of stuff going on behind the scenes,  could go either way.


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> In the fullness of time, I think people will see that you have that exactly the wrong way around.



If Trump is so great and America is great again, why aren't you over there flipping horse shoes and making a killing?  I assume you are an American citizen?


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> If Trump is so great and America is great again, why aren't you over there flipping horse shoes and making a killing?  I assume you are an American citizen?



1/ I don't "flip" horseshoes. 

2/ I'm doing pretty doggone good here.

3/ I don't have US citizenship, I have Australian,  UK and Canadian  citizenship. 

4/ Both those other countries have been totally ****ed by postmodern cultural Marxism and though Oz is on the same road,  I'm hoping it can be saved before its too late.


----------



## moXJO

Don't  come in here stinking up the thread with your Trump hate. You all saw what I did to that last guy.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Don't  come in here stinking up the thread with your Trump hate. You all saw what I did to that last guy.




Take away his access?


----------



## moXJO

Heres this fruitloop.
"I don't make a cent from private contracts."
Meanwhile on his webpage....
https://www.philmudd.com/bio.html




> Mr. Mudd is the President of Mudd Management, a company specializing in security consulting; analytic training; and public speaking about security issues.  He is a senior fellow at the New America Foundation and The George Washington University’s Homeland Security Policy Institute.  He now serves as Senior Global Adviser to Oxford Analytica, a British-based firm specializing in advising multinational companies.   He sits  on the advisory board for the National Counterterrorism Center and for the Director of National Intelligence, and he serves on the Aspen Institute’s Homeland Security Group.




Derangement.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Heres this fruitloop.
> "I don't make a cent from private contracts."
> Meanwhile on his webpage....
> https://www.philmudd.com/bio.html
> 
> Derangement.





Pro Bono?  

Just like the Donald, our favourite president, World Peace is all he wanted.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> 1/ I don't "flip" horseshoes.
> 
> 2/ I'm doing pretty doggone good here.
> 
> 3/ I don't have US citizenship, I have Australian,  UK and Canadian  citizenship.
> 
> 4/ Both those other countries have been totally ****ed by postmodern cultural Marxism and though Oz is on the same road,  I'm hoping it can be saved before its too late.




I thought it's those "Chicago Boys", neo-liberal, Ayn Rand retards that screwed... pretty much everybody except corporate welfare recipients. 

Saw an interview with author of "Collusion" recently. Holy.... the US Feds, and in the Fed having power and influence over pretty much every other central banks around the world, except for China, maybe Russia.... 

Did you know that the Feds bailed out the banks, through its QE, its buying those toxic CDOs... they bailed the banks out to the tune of trillions of dollars. 

They literally gave money away to the bankers for free. For nothing. The bankers, being geniuses who almost wreck the world, get those money, got the toxic assets off its books for nothing, then uses free money to lend back to the central banks - with interest, obviously. Who doesn't charge interest when lending out cash, right?

And of course when you make money on free money, you deserve bonuses. Big ones.

I'm pretty sure a Marxist gov't would imprison a few of those guys for causing the GFC. 

To bail them out, hand them their bonuses, to permit them to merge and be bigger than their too big to fail former self... Marxism? 

Someone's running the place, and ruining it. it ain't the hippies pinko.


----------



## wayneL

luutzu said:


> I thought it's those "Chicago Boys", neo-liberal, Ayn Rand retards that screwed... pretty much everybody except corporate welfare recipients.
> 
> Saw an interview with author of "Collusion" recently. Holy.... the US Feds, and in the Fed having power and influence over pretty much every other central banks around the world, except for China, maybe Russia....
> 
> Did you know that the Feds bailed out the banks, through its QE, its buying those toxic CDOs... they bailed the banks out to the tune of trillions of dollars.
> 
> They literally gave money away to the bankers for free. For nothing. The bankers, being geniuses who almost wreck the world, get those money, got the toxic assets off its books for nothing, then uses free money to lend back to the central banks - with interest, obviously. Who doesn't charge interest when lending out cash, right?
> 
> And of course when you make money on free money, you deserve bonuses. Big ones.
> 
> I'm pretty sure a Marxist gov't would imprison a few of those guys for causing the GFC.
> 
> To bail them out, hand them their bonuses, to permit them to merge and be bigger than their too big to fail former self... Marxism?
> 
> Someone's running the place, and ruining it. it ain't the hippies pinko.



You're actually pretty close to the money Grasshopper. Just way off on a few critical details. 

Can't say much, but there is a lot going on we aint supposed to know about till later.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Heres this fruitloop.
> "I don't make a cent from private contracts."
> Meanwhile on his webpage....
> https://www.philmudd.com/bio.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derangement.





Is CNN affiliated with the Guardian? Of course ex inners make money for the knowledge they have, not because they fought in North Korea.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> You're actually pretty close to the money Grasshopper. Just way off on a few critical details.
> 
> Can't say much, but there is a lot going on we aint supposed to know about till later.




Yes Wayne  Q Anon is in the know.  The Grand Plan is about to be unfolded.

*Trump Fans Are Suckers and QAnon Is Perfect for Them*
*And aggrieved, and paranoid, and thrilled to have “An Answer” that explains everything about the world they hate and tells them Trump is great and they’re pretty good, too.*
Rick Wilson
*08.03.18 10:24 PM ET*
Conspiracies are hard. They're even harder when you're stupid.

They are, however, deeply compelling. Some people need a single, grand unifying theory of why the world refuses to line up with their expectations. When difficult realities confront people without the intellectual horsepower to understand and accept the truth, some turn to conspiracy theories to paper over the holes in their worldview. No matter how absurd, baroque, and improbable, conspiracies grow on their own like mental kudzu where inconsistencies aren't signs of illogical conclusions, but of another, deeper layer of some hidden truth, some skein of powerful forces holding the world in its grip.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-fans-are-suckers-and-qanon-is-perfect-for-them


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Yes Wayne  Q Anon is in the know.  The Grand Plan is about to be unfolded.
> 
> *Trump Fans Are Suckers and QAnon Is Perfect for Them*
> *And aggrieved, and paranoid, and thrilled to have “An Answer” that explains everything about the world they hate and tells them Trump is great and they’re pretty good, too.*
> Rick Wilson
> *08.03.18 10:24 PM ET*
> Conspiracies are hard. They're even harder when you're stupid.
> 
> They are, however, deeply compelling. Some people need a single, grand unifying theory of why the world refuses to line up with their expectations. When difficult realities confront people without the intellectual horsepower to understand and accept the truth, some turn to conspiracy theories to paper over the holes in their worldview. No matter how absurd, baroque, and improbable, conspiracies grow on their own like mental kudzu where inconsistencies aren't signs of illogical conclusions, but of another, deeper layer of some hidden truth, some skein of powerful forces holding the world in its grip.
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-fans-are-suckers-and-qanon-is-perfect-for-them



Nothing to do with qanon bro,  I still have contacts in the bowels of the political establishment in UK,  where,  if you recall, I was a member of a think tank.


----------



## wayneL

By the way,  I am not a member of either 4chan or 8chan.


----------



## Tink

I have mentioned before -

President Trump Has Been a Champion for Religious Freedom

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-trump-champion-religious-freedom/


----------



## Junior

*Dramatic day for the Trump presidency as Cohen and Manafort both guilty*



> Cohen told a New York courtroom that, during the 2016 election campaign, he violated federal law "in co-ordination with and at the direction of a federal candidate for office" - a reference to Trump.
> 
> Cohen's attorney Lanny Davis tweeted that Cohen had "stood up and testified under oath that Donald Trump directed him to commit a crime by making payments to two women for the principal purpose of influencing an election".
> 
> "If those payments were a crime for Michael Cohen, then why wouldn't they be a crime for Donald Trump?" he asked.




https://www.theage.com.au/world/nor...and-manafort-both-guilty-20180822-p4zyxc.html


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> *Dramatic day for the Trump presidency as Cohen and Manafort both guilty*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theage.com.au/world/nor...and-manafort-both-guilty-20180822-p4zyxc.html





If the law is the same hear recordings and hearsay have fairly set rules for admission in law.

Typical reaction defence is "it's all a lie"


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> If the law is the same hear recordings and hearsay have fairly set rules for admission in law.
> 
> Typical reaction defence is "it's all a lie"




So much for Russian collusion.

 I wonder if the real objective of Mueller was to pin Trump on one of his dodgy deals. Getting trump on something dodgy he has done seems a lot more likely then the Russian beat-up.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> So much for Russian collusion.
> 
> I wonder if the real objective of Mueller was to pin Trump on one of his dodgy deals. Getting trump on something dodgy he has done seems a lot more likely then the Russian beat-up.




I don't think they have an impeachable offence. El Presdiente can't be touched by some authorities.


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> I don't think they have an impeachable offence. El Presdiente can't be touched by some authorities.



Progressive news already has him on the green mile.


----------



## Tisme




----------



## basilio

"What a tortured web we weave when we try to deceive."  No wonder the Liar In Chief won't talk with the Mueller inquiry.   There is no way on earth he could remember whatever actually happened because he has refabricated reality so many times.

His latest statement is a beauty. Apparently his ex lawyer Micahel Cohen is making up stories about paying the women "who he never slept with" hush money from campaign funds.

Nope.  On Thursday 22nd Aug 2018 The Liar in Chief says he personally ponied up the cash to pay off these "lying women".   

Despite the fact that Al Capone was known as the big cheese of organised crime - in the end he got done on tax fraud. Same result - different process.

Lock him up...

* Defiant Donald Trump accuses Michael Cohen of making up hush money stories *
Ex-fixer says Trump directed him to make payments and lawyer says Cohen is ready to tell all he knows about Russian interference
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rmation-on-conspiracy-by-russians-says-lawyer


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> "What a tortured web we weave when we try to deceive."  No wonder the Liar In Chief won't talk with the Mueller inquiry.   There is no way on earth he could remember whatever actually happened because he has refabricated reality so many times.
> 
> His latest statement is a beauty. Apparently his ex lawyer Micahel Cohen is making up stories about paying the women "who he never slept with" hush money from campaign funds.
> 
> Nope.  On Thursday 22nd Aug 2018 The Liar in Chief says he personally ponied up the cash to pay off these "lying women".
> 
> Despite the fact that Al Capone was known as the big cheese of organised crime - in the end he got done on tax fraud. Same result - different process.
> 
> Lock him up...
> 
> * Defiant Donald Trump accuses Michael Cohen of making up hush money stories *
> Ex-fixer says Trump directed him to make payments and lawyer says Cohen is ready to tell all he knows about Russian interference
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rmation-on-conspiracy-by-russians-says-lawyer




Reminds me of an interview with Gore Vidal where he said the Rockefeller brothers were furious at one of their brothers - who was Governor of NY or such - running for president, then VP. 

Vidal say how the other Rockefeller didn't like, well, one, doing actual work when they can just have politicians working for them; two, running for high office mean everything comes out in the open. 

If you're Trump or his handlers, you definitely do not want the authority looking closely at your dealings. But Trump can just pardon them though. It sends the message.


----------



## basilio

It is really a race to the line to see which "witch hunting" law group manges to land the fatal blow on the Trump clan of crooks.  But maybe this can be  cooperatve effort ?

* Michael Cohen hit with subpoena in case alleging Trump charity violations *
Trump’s longtime lawyer could provide valuable testimony in New York’s investigation into charity

Tom McCarthy in New York

 @TeeMcSee 
 Email 
Thu 23 Aug 2018 06.45 AEST   Last modified on Thu 23 Aug 2018 07.03 AEST

*Shares*
86




Michael Cohen was subpoenaed a day after pleading guilty to charges of fraud and campaign finance violations. Photograph: Bryan Smith/ZUMA Wire/REX/Shutterstock
A day after telling a federal court that Donald Trump directed him to violate campaign finance laws, Michael Cohen was hit with a subpoena in a separate investigation in New York state of Trump’s charitable foundation.

The New York state attorney general, Barbara Underwood, sued the Donald J Trump charitable foundation, Donald Trump and three of his children in June for allegedly violating state charity laws.

“The foundation is little more than an empty shell that functions with no oversight from its board of directors,” the lawsuit alleged.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...bpoena-trump-foundation-charity-investigation


----------



## Tink




----------



## bellenuit

Tink said:


>





They are not silencing people. They have no obligation to provide a platform for anyone who wants to say what they like. Even Alex Jones, who had his podcasts removed from Apple's platform, on his own website claims the right to not allow comments that he does not think fits his agenda.

Jones, et al. can continue to say and write what they like (within the law). There are plenty of far right media outlets for them to use.


----------



## Knobby22

Tink said:


>



Really nelive that? I am amazed.


----------



## Knobby22

Knobby22 said:


> Really nelive that? I am amazed.



believe


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> They are not silencing people. They have no obligation to provide a platform for anyone who wants to say what they like. Even Alex Jones, who had his podcasts removed from Apple's platform, on his own website claims the right to not allow comments that he does not think fits his agenda.
> 
> Jones, et al. can continue to say and write what they like (within the law). There are plenty of far right media outlets for them to use.



Did they wipe out antifa and the leftist hate groups?


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Did they wipe out antifa and the leftist hate groups?




Yes


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Yes



Did you google "antifa twitter" before you answered?


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Did you google "antifa twitter" before you answered?



 or Trash Panda


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Did you google "antifa twitter" before you answered?




I was specifically commenting on Apple removing Alex Jones' podcasts. Find me Antifa on Apple podcasts.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Did they wipe out antifa and the leftist hate groups?




Alex Jones was just a pretext.

It's thought/speech control. Can't do it so openly in a liberal democracy with freedom of the press and all that free speech. So you go after a loud mouthed idiot, first.

Then you take out any other idiots and organisation whose speech doesn't suit the national narratives.

So radio or shows sponsored by a foreign state your welfare paying gov't doesn't like, you take out. Countries like Soviet Russia, Axis of evil Iran; Communist Venezuela... are taken off.

Those from, say, China, Israel, Saudi Arabia... they're all good. They would never, ever, bs and push their agenda lying through their teeth.

Wait 'til Google gets back into China. This time they're going to do a proper vetting of searches the comrades deemed biased and nondemocratic, all over the world.


----------



## PZ99

Only in America LOL


----------



## sptrawler

There has never been a President, that has attracted this much attention, it is really interesting.

From someone who doesn't give a ratz.ME

I think he is saying to the companies, that have offshored manufacturing jobs to Countries with cheap labour, we will put excise on your imports unless you return the factories home.

To the EU who have spent sod all on defence spending, then sign fuel and electricity contracts with Countries that are considered hostile, we aren't your backup unless you buy some of or gear.

To China he is saying we built factories in your Country, you don't respect interlectual knowledge and patents and reverse engineer our equipment. Unless you open up your markets to our products, or float your currency, we will put an import tax on your products. We buy $630billion of your stuff, you import $160billion of ours.

I really can't see what he is doing wrong, maybe someone can enlighten me, I haven't read a lot on it.

So if you cut out the "white noise", what is he saying that is wrong.


----------



## bellenuit

Some of hundreds of things.....

He is saying that if he appoints you Attorney General of the USA, your job is to protect him from prosecution, not to uphold the laws of the USA. If you lead the FBI, you are to lie to protect him and if you don't he will sack you.

He is saying that if he and his family set up a charitable trust, then that trust is to be used to illegally fund his campaign and to bribe others to assist him in his personal dealings.

He is saying that if you are a leader of a country and act like a thug, he will show you complete respect and collude with you to interfere with your own democratic process.

He is saying that if you protect him by withholding evidence from the law, he will respect you and consider pardoning you if you get convicted.

He is saying that if you are his lawyer, you should pay off, in contravention of election campaign rules,  anyone who he has had an illicit affair with you so that knowledge of it doesn't become public.

He is saying that if you investigate him for wrongdoing, he will respond by attempting to destroy all legal institutions and denigrate their officials to deflect attention from the crimes he is being investigated for.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Some of hundreds of things.....
> 
> He is saying that if he appoints you Attorney General of the USA, your job is to protect him from prosecution, not to uphold the laws of the USA. If you lead the FBI, you are to lie to protect him and if you don't he will sack you.
> 
> He is saying that if he and his family set up a charitable trust, then that trust is to be used to illegally fund his campaign and to bribe others to assist him in his personal dealings.
> 
> He is saying that if you are a leader of a country and act like a thug, he will show you complete respect and collude with you to interfere with your own democratic process.
> 
> He is saying that if you protect him by withholding evidence from the law, he will respect you and consider pardoning you if you get convicted.
> 
> He is saying that if you are his lawyer, you should pay off, in contravention of election campaign rules,  anyone who he has had an illicit affair with you so that knowledge of it doesn't become public.
> 
> He is saying that if you investigate him for wrongdoing, he will respond by attempting to destroy all legal institutions and denigrate their officials to deflect attention from the crimes he is being investigated for.




Yes, but that is like bad personal traits, that most politicians haven't been pulled up on.

I was talking about his policies, in respect of fixing the economy, which is what will effect us.

The stuff you posted actually doesn't matter to us at all, unless you are interested in the politics of it.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> The stuff you posted actually doesn't matter to us at all, unless you are interested in the politics of it.




How do you mean it doesn't effect us. It is a full scale attack on democracy and democratic institutions as well as the free press that underpins our democracy. He has weakened NATO most likely at the direct behest of Putin. He has elevated the status of Korea's Kim to be on a par with other world leaders and has got nothing in return. 

A lot of what has been achieved economic wise are just a continuation of the achievements under Obama. Look at the graphs and one can see it is just a continuation of the trend started by Obama.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> There has never been a President, that has attracted this much attention, it is really interesting.
> 
> From someone who doesn't give a ratz.ME
> 
> I think he is saying to the companies, that have offshored manufacturing jobs to Countries with cheap labour, we will put excise on your imports unless you return the factories home.
> 
> To the EU who have spent sod all on defence spending, then sign fuel and electricity contracts with Countries that are considered hostile, we aren't your backup unless you buy some of or gear.
> 
> To China he is saying we built factories in your Country, you don't respect interlectual knowledge and patents and reverse engineer our equipment. Unless you open up your markets to our products, or float your currency, we will put an import tax on your products. We buy $630billion of your stuff, you import $160billion of ours.
> 
> I really can't see what he is doing wrong, maybe someone can enlighten me, I haven't read a lot on it.
> 
> So if you cut out the "white noise", what is he saying that is wrong.




They can always steal the new patents from China.

It now has more patent rego than the US; faster super computers, and more of it by 2020. etc. etc.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> How do you mean it doesn't effect us. It is a full scale attack on democracy and democratic institutions as well as the free press that underpins our democracy. He has weakened NATO most likely at the direct behest of Putin. He has elevated the status of Korea's Kim to be on a par with other world leaders and has got nothing in return.
> 
> A lot of what has been achieved economic wise are just a continuation of the achievements under Obama. Look at the graphs and one can see it is just a continuation of the trend started by Obama.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> How do you mean it doesn't effect us. It is a full scale attack on democracy and democratic institutions as well as the free press that underpins our democracy. He has weakened NATO most likely at the direct behest of Putin. He has elevated the status of Korea's Kim to be on a par with other world leaders and has got nothing in return.
> 
> A lot of what has been achieved economic wise are just a continuation of the achievements under Obama. Look at the graphs and one can see it is just a continuation of the trend started by Obama.




A lot of subjective emotion there, but suggesting Putin tells Trump what to do is bordering on, if not immersed in paranoia.

Trump hasn't taken the whole world to the brink of destruction as did the likes of Kennedy & Regan, both public desk thumpers and far more dogmatically belligerent than Trump. 

What about Obama rolling tanks into Eastern Europe early Jan 2017 to intimidate the Russians because of a rumour Russia conspired with Trump to force US voters fingers to select Trump at the polls.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> They can always steal the new patents from China.
> 
> It now has more patent rego than the US; faster super computers, and more of it by 2020. etc. etc.






The US built its empire pinching ideas and inventions from other nations. It was a factory that supplied and made its money from the British Empire. It sucked huge amounts money from Europe, while Europe and Asia Minor burned in two wars. In short the US had it good on the back of British wealth and global war loans.


----------



## bellenuit

*Bob Woodward: Trump's aides stole his papers 'to protect the country'*

*https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html*


----------



## Darc Knight

_


bellenuit said:



*Bob Woodward: Trump's aides stole his papers 'to protect the country'*

Click to expand...


_


bellenuit said:


> _*https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html*_



_

"And Trump's former personal lawyer John Dowd describes the President as "a ******* liar," telling Trump he would end up in an "orange jump suit" if he testified to special counsel Robert Mueller."
"Trump's obsession with the Russia probe, describing for the first time confidential conversations between the President's lawyers and Mueller. It recounts a dramatic session in the White House residence in which Trump failed a mock Mueller interview with his lawyers."
"Then in an even more remarkable move, Dowd and Trump's current personal attorney Jay Sekulow went to Mueller's office and re-enacted the mock interview. Their goal: to argue that Trump couldn't possibly testify because he was incapable of telling the truth.
"He just made something up. That's his nature," Dowd said to Mueller."
_


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> *Bob Woodward: Trump's aides stole his papers 'to protect the country'*
> 
> *https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html*




Can Trump survive much longer ?


----------



## moXJO

CNN is like quoting Disney. They literally backed their own lies recently in a story. 

All this rubbish will keep flowing to midterms. The whole point being to sway the votes.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> CNN is like quoting Disney. They literally backed their own lies recently in a story.
> 
> All this rubbish will keep flowing to midterms. The whole point being to sway the votes.




They're all Disney though. Except maybe Fox News... that's more DC kind of darkness. 

Saw an interview with Chris Hedges on MSNBC the other day. 

Hedges is one of those who see the crumbling, decline of the American empire etc. The news anchor just have no idea what the heck he's on about. 

What? Half the country is poor? How? Corporations control the government, destroying democracy, the environment? Whaaatt? 

Thanks for your opinion Chris. That was Chris, a loonie with a show on Russia TV - a Moscow funded organisation talking trash about we exceptional Americans.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> CNN is like quoting Disney. They literally backed their own lies recently in a story.
> 
> All this rubbish will keep flowing to midterms. The whole point being to sway the votes.




It would be useful if you read the story. The revelations are not from CNN but from a new book by Bob Woodward of Watergate fame.


----------



## Kerway

SirRumpole said:


> Can Trump survive much longer ?




I hope so. The US economy is booming way beyond where it was under Obama. Obama had the huge advantage of taking over at the time of the global recession and a time when the US economy could only improve.

Trump is indeed an arrogant egotist, but he is not constrained, as was Obama and many other professional politicians, with a burning desire to be "liked". Trump seeks only to be respected.


----------



## luutzu

Kerway said:


> I hope so. The US economy is booming way beyond where it was under Obama. Obama had the huge advantage of taking over at the time of the global recession and a time when the US economy could only improve.
> 
> Trump is indeed an arrogant egotist, but he is not constrained, as was Obama and many other professional politicians, with a burning desire to be "liked". Trump seeks only to be respected.




The market booms. Not so sure about the general economy. Well... maybe a different kind of boom, one with a crater.


----------



## Darc Knight

bellenuit said:


> It would be useful if you read the story. The revelations are not from CNN but from a new book by Bob Woodward of Watergate fame.




Not only that, but Woodward says he has hundreds of hours of taped interviews backing his claims. Which of course he would, knowing what a liar and litigious person Trump is.
Theres also a direct interview confrontation between Woodward and Teump where Trump totally reverses his story showing him to be a total liar still ...... @moXJO

And we're off and racing again!


----------



## SirRumpole

Kerway said:


> I hope so. The US economy is booming way beyond where it was under Obama. Obama had the huge advantage of taking over at the time of the global recession and a time when the US economy could only improve.
> 
> Trump is indeed an arrogant egotist, but he is not constrained, as was Obama and many other professional politicians, with a burning desire to be "liked". Trump seeks only to be respected.




I guess you can get a good economy temporarily if you are prepared to pay for it with debt and deficit, but sooner or later it will all come crashing down.


----------



## sptrawler

Kerway said:


> I hope so. The US economy is booming way beyond where it was under Obama. Obama had the huge advantage of taking over at the time of the global recession and a time when the US economy could only improve.
> 
> Trump is indeed an arrogant egotist, but he is not constrained, as was Obama and many other professional politicians, with a burning desire to be "liked". Trump seeks only to be respected.



Like you say, he is doing a good job of kickstarting the World economy, he certainly wouldn't win any personality competitions, but he is getting things done that no one else seemed to.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> Like you say, he is doing a good job of kickstarting the World economy, he certainly wouldn't win any personality competitions, but he is getting things done that no one else seemed to.




Only if you listen to him. His achievements vs Obama hardly indicate exceptionalism on his behalf, particularly if you remember Obama had to deal with the Bush caused recession.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42748243

Even though he often touts the Dow Jones as an indicator of his success, the chart in the article above shows that it was started under Obama. In fact the chart is misleading, as stock charts should be to a logarithmic scale and this one is linear. On the log scale, the increase under Trump is not as dramatic.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Like you say, he is doing a good job of kickstarting the World economy, he certainly wouldn't win any personality competitions, but he is getting things done that no one else seemed to.




Not all things done, should be done.

If Climate Change is real and the scientists are right that the human species could be doomed if we keep going the way we have... and evidence suggests that they might know what they're talking about... Trump's policies about nail us all.

If the peasants in 'merka like clean water and fresh air... they're crap out of luck too.

If they dare go against God and need an abortion... the new, any eventual, Justice under Trump will screwed that too. Family. Value. Votes.

If they're poor, sick... they're stuffed. But then they've always been stuffed under any admin so that's not Trump' fault, he just ramp it up a couple notches.

But if they own stocks, which about 10% of them do... or run a corporation... or their parents have hundreds of millions and about to kick the can... they just can't believe their luck under Trump.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> Only if you listen to him. His achievements vs Obama hardly indicate exceptionalism on his behalf, particularly if you remember Obama had to deal with the Bush caused recession.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42748243
> 
> Even though he often touts the Dow Jones as an indicator of his success, the chart in the article above shows that it was started under Obama. In fact the chart is misleading, as stock charts should be to a logarithmic scale and this one is linear. On the log scale, the increase under Trump is not as dramatic.




yea, let's compare how presidents do by the freaking stock index shall we.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Only if you listen to him. His achievements vs Obama hardly indicate exceptionalism on his behalf, particularly if you remember Obama had to deal with the Bush caused recession.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42748243
> 
> Even though he often touts the Dow Jones as an indicator of his success, the chart in the article above shows that it was started under Obama. In fact the chart is misleading, as stock charts should be to a logarithmic scale and this one is linear. On the log scale, the increase under Trump is not as dramatic.



Coming from the depths of lowest of lows isn't much of an achievement. He followed bush's advice by the way.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Not only that, but Woodward says he has hundreds of hours of taped interviews backing his claims. Which of course he would, knowing what a liar and litigious person Trump is.
> Theres also a direct interview confrontation between Woodward and Teump where Trump totally reverses his story showing him to be a total liar still ...... @moXJO
> 
> And we're off and racing again!



Na,  seems like a new story creeping out every week. I'm kind of over it. 

We have billionaires funding anyone that can leverage against Trump. Funding trolls, funding lies, violence. Dems lying their holes out. 

  I'm hoping Trump rips down the lot before mids.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> It would be useful if you read the story. The revelations are not from CNN but from a new book by Bob Woodward of Watergate fame.



And?


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> Na,  seems like a new story creeping out every week. I'm kind of over it.
> 
> We have billionaires funding anyone that can leverage against Trump. Funding trolls, funding lies, violence. Dems lying their holes out.
> 
> I'm hoping Trump rips down the lot before mids.




Lol

For the kiddies playing at Home, that was a troll post by Mo


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Coming from the depths of lowest of lows isn't much of an achievement. He followed bush's advice by the way.




Not true. Turning a juggernaut around is far more difficult than simply to continue coasting under the momentum already built up by your predecessor.

And don't forget that Trump has a majority in both houses, a luxury Obama didn't have.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Lol
> 
> For the kiddies playing at Home, that was a troll post by Mo



Theres actually a cryptic infinitechan message to decode amongst my posts.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Not true. Turning a juggernaut around is far more difficult than simply to continue coasting under the momentum already built up by your predecessor.
> 
> And don't forget that Trump has a majority in both houses, a luxury Obama didn't have.



One thing you can't accuse Trump of is coasting, that would be the furthest from the truth, he has been absolutely out there.
He has done a lot more in the short period of time, with regard the economy and International engagement than any in the last 20 years.
He hasn't started a war, yet has challenged all the World leaders.
He has stimulated the economy, by challenging the multi nationals to stop off shoring manufacturing.
The problem is he doesn't give a ratz what the media has to say.
Probably because he doesn't need a job, when he finishes in office.
That is his main issue, the media hate him, because they can't control him a new paradigm for the media.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> One thing you can't accuse Trump of is coasting, that would be the furthest from the truth, he has been absolutely out there.
> He has done a lot more in the short period of time, with regard the economy and International engagement than any in the last 20 years.
> He hasn't started a war, yet has challenged all the World leaders.
> He has stimulated the economy, by challenging the multi nationals to stop off shoring manufacturing.
> The problem is he doesn't give a ratz what the media has to say.
> Probably because he doesn't need a job, when he finishes in office.
> That is his main issue, the media hate him, because they can't control him a new paradigm for the media.




You know you should never use NewsCorp's paper to roll your joint. 

Some former Germany diplomat just warned that Trump's policy is going to seriously drive Germany, Russia, not to mention Iran, into the loving arms of Beijing. 

Some EU foreign minister publicly told Trump to not upset their friends, there aren't that many left. And that was before the tariffs on their autos; pushing them to spend more of their GDP on NATO and its American-made hardware.

Trump's fight with the media is just for show. They love the bastard. CBS president, Moonves, was bragging about how Trump is great for the company. "He's not good for American democracy, but he's great for the ratings", the media honcho said. 

So all these "wars" with the media, the "mainstream" fake news... that's just bs designed to lift the ratings and divert attention.

If he's at war with the media, there's no way in heck his admin would permit the merger between Disney/Fox, Comcast etc.; no way they'd allow tiered internet access, ending net neutrality.

And if the media want to take it to him; all his kids would be indicted for corruption already. And that's just a start.

As to new wars. Under him, so far, Pakistan is pretty much lost to China. The US had spent hundreds of billions over the decades, help them with their nukes and India problem; stationed this and that black ops... all that is pretty much gone now. 

China is spending, from memory, some $100B+ turning a sleepy Pakistani fishing village into a major "trade" port. Spending truck loads more linking that port along Pakistan entire interior all the way to China with roads and rail. 

That weren't done totally under Trump, but his mastery of politics and strategy doesn't help that's for sure.

Then there's the preparation for a war with Iran. He look like the kind of 'war president' that reckon this too will be a cake walk.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> You know you should never use NewsCorp's paper to roll your joint.
> 
> Some former Germany diplomat just warned that Trump's policy is going to seriously drive Germany, Russia, not to mention Iran, into the loving arms of Beijing.
> 
> Some EU foreign minister publicly told Trump to not upset their friends, there aren't that many left. And that was before the tariffs on their autos; pushing them to spend more of their GDP on NATO and its American-made hardware.
> 
> Trump's fight with the media is just for show. They love the bastard. CBS president, Moonves, was bragging about how Trump is great for the company. "He's not good for American democracy, but he's great for the ratings", the media honcho said.
> 
> So all these "wars" with the media, the "mainstream" fake news... that's just bs designed to lift the ratings and divert attention.
> 
> If he's at war with the media, there's no way in heck his admin would permit the merger between Disney/Fox, Comcast etc.; no way they'd allow tiered internet access, ending net neutrality.
> 
> And if the media want to take it to him; all his kids would be indicted for corruption already. And that's just a start.
> 
> As to new wars. Under him, so far, Pakistan is pretty much lost to China. The US had spent hundreds of billions over the decades, help them with their nukes and India problem; stationed this and that black ops... all that is pretty much gone now.
> 
> China is spending, from memory, some $100B+ turning a sleepy Pakistani fishing village into a major "trade" port. Spending truck loads more linking that port along Pakistan entire interior all the way to China with roads and rail.
> 
> That weren't done totally under Trump, but his mastery of politics and strategy doesn't help that's for sure.
> 
> Then there's the preparation for a war with Iran. He look like the kind of 'war president' that reckon this too will be a cake walk.




You obviously spend way too much time, reading this $hit. LOL
You will give yourself some horrible disease, stressing about Trump, those that can't afford a house, those that have bought a house and now can't afford it, those who are impoverished, those who hope not to become impoverished, those that vote for them, that don't look after them.
Actually, you seem to have a handle, on every problem that besets people.
You Worry Way Too Much.
But it is nice to find someone that cares.


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> .
> That is his main issue, the media hate him, because they can't control him a new paradigm for the media.




Yes the media don't like him due to his attacks on the media but most reasonable people know Trump's the dodgiest President in history. The media knows theres a story there. Sometimes they over shoot the runway but the jist of any story is Trump being the most corrupt President ever, is right.

Lol @luu's don't roll your joint with News Corp's paper


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> You obviously spend way too much time, reading this $hit. LOL
> You will give yourself some horrible disease, stressing about Trump, those that can't afford a house, those that have bought a house and now can't afford it, those who are impoverished, those who hope not to become impoverished, those that vote for them, that don't look after them.
> Actually, you seem to have a handle, on every problem that besets people.
> You Worry Way Too Much.
> But it is nice to find someone that cares.




All I need now is money and absolute power. 

I'll settle for only absolute power. With that I'll bring peace to the world. 

It's good for your health to watch and read these stuff. You usually have to pay good money for the kind of show comedian and actors put up.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> All I need now is money and absolute power.
> 
> I'll settle for only absolute power. With that I'll bring peace to the world.
> 
> It's good for your health to watch and read these stuff. You usually have to pay good money for the kind of show comedian and actors put up.




Well Iuutzu, Trump covers just about all of the above. lol
Love him or hate him, he isn't treading water, which most politicians do.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> You know you should never use NewsCorp's paper to roll your joint.
> 
> Some former Germany diplomat just warned that Trump's policy is going to seriously drive Germany, Russia, not to mention Iran, into the loving arms of Beijing.
> 
> Some EU foreign minister publicly told Trump to not upset their friends, there aren't that many left. And that was before the tariffs on their autos; pushing them to spend more of their GDP on NATO and its American-made hardware.
> 
> Trump's fight with the media is just for show. They love the bastard. CBS president, Moonves, was bragging about how Trump is great for the company. "He's not good for American democracy, but he's great for the ratings", the media honcho said.
> 
> So all these "wars" with the media, the "mainstream" fake news... that's just bs designed to lift the ratings and divert attention.
> 
> If he's at war with the media, there's no way in heck his admin would permit the merger between Disney/Fox, Comcast etc.; no way they'd allow tiered internet access, ending net neutrality.
> 
> And if the media want to take it to him; all his kids would be indicted for corruption already. And that's just a start.
> 
> As to new wars. Under him, so far, Pakistan is pretty much lost to China. The US had spent hundreds of billions over the decades, help them with their nukes and India problem; stationed this and that black ops... all that is pretty much gone now.
> 
> China is spending, from memory, some $100B+ turning a sleepy Pakistani fishing village into a major "trade" port. Spending truck loads more linking that port along Pakistan entire interior all the way to China with roads and rail.
> 
> That weren't done totally under Trump, but his mastery of politics and strategy doesn't help that's for sure.
> 
> Then there's the preparation for a war with Iran. He look like the kind of 'war president' that reckon this too will be a cake walk.



Pakistan was never really friendly with the US. All the terrorists are basically hidden there. Obama flying a bunch of seals in and taking out Osama without forewarning  Pakistans officials probably about sums it up. 

Pakistan went with china because they both have an India problem. And India will be the up and coming powerhouse. 

China has a major demographic problem that will hamstring them.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Pakistan went with china because they both have an India problem. And India will be the up and coming powerhouse.
> .



India will never be a problem, until they overcome their caste system, and that doesn't look like it being addressed.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Not true. Turning a juggernaut around is far more difficult than simply to continue coasting under the momentum already built up by your predecessor.
> 
> And don't forget that Trump has a majority in both houses, a luxury Obama didn't have.



Obama followed bush's "save the banks" policy to a t.
Bush was the one that came up with the plan. The older gop members were going to support it.
The gop understood the ramifications if they let it go pear shaped (bar the tea party supporters)
Once confidence is restored it was business as usual.... unfortunately.


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> India will never be a problem, until they overcome their caste system, and that doesn't look like it being addressed.



Indias middle class is coming through. Its changing a lot over there

And they are all ready on Chinas doorstep in border disputes. 
There was a recent near clash in the mountain area.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Pakistan was never really friendly with the US. All the terrorists are basically hidden there. Obama flying a bunch of seals in and taking out Osama without forewarning  Pakistans officials probably about sums it up.
> 
> Pakistan went with china because they both have an India problem. And India will be the up and coming powerhouse.
> 
> China has a major demographic problem that will hamstring them.




As friendly as any vassal state could be though. We can't all be an Australia or a Britain now can we? 

With Obama taking out Osama... I remember watching some interview, can't remember who now but at the time I thought the guy have enough credentials to believe... according to him, he said the actual version of event wasn't what we're told. And it's nothing like that movie Zero Dark Thirty either.

I think he was a former CIA who got a few months for whistle blowing. He was saying that the press release about Obama ordering the Seals in illegally to bring to justice America's enemy number one... that's just for the electioneering. 

I mean, releasing images of himself and his A team in the situation room watching the assassination of bin Laden? Who does that, really? Sure, order to take him out and whatnot... but to sit and watch? 

Anyway, what actually happened was the Pakistani generals agreed to let the US take out Osama. Just do it quietly, not upsetting a few colonel and other members within the Pakistani intel/military who's sympathetic to Osama.

They crashed the fancy chopper; Obama sing and dance about how awesome he was risking war with a country that have nukes just to bring bin Laden to justice. In doing so, he pretty much rub it into the faces of the Pak's military, painting them as incompetent idiots who were asleep instead of protecting the country's sovereignty. 

That and constantly droning the dam place doesn't help with winning hearts either. 

That and trying to compete a few hundred millions against the Chinese billions. 
---------

yea, and they both have an Indian problem. 

Don't know much about modern India. Lots of potential there for sure. Maybe the caste system they still have need to go first before world domination though.

Yea, China got that demographic/aging problem right about now. But if the US is stuck in the Middle East another decade, its influence in the world will drastically recede and give way to China once the current flock of Chinese grows up to reclaim that ancient status they've "lost".


----------



## sptrawler

It's becoming obvious why everyone is scared of Huawei.


----------



## bellenuit

*I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration*


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> *I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration*
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage



A bit like the book where everyone that supposedly made those quotes said it was untrue.

Didn't mattis just come out and call the book fiction. And now we skip past that onto the next thing.


----------



## Darc Knight

No Flies for you to pull the wings off today Mo?


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> No Flies for you to pull the wings off today Mo?



Bas isn't here and Tisme seems to be in retirement.
Someone has to play devils advocate, or we all just nod heads..... Boring.

Yeah, I'm just watching a few trades today which is boring as hell.


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> Bas isn't here and Tisme seems to be in retirement.
> Someone has to play devils advocate, or we all just nod heads..... Boring.
> 
> Yeah, I'm just watching a few trades today which is boring as hell.




Yes @basilio and @Tisme need to lift their game.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> Yes @basilio and @Tisme need to lift their game.




Oh for the good old daze.


----------



## basilio

Not gone.  Just more selective in what I  do these days.

Apparently the Circular Firing Squad is in full flight in the Mad House after someone noted the Emporer was a naked, start raving mad looney who needed very close attention if the rest of us are going to live longer and happier lives.

Just another day in paradise folks.

*‘The sleeper cells have awoken’: Trump, aides shaken by op-ed piece*
Send via Email
*Washington:* President Donald Trump and his aides have reacted with indignation to an unsigned opinion column from a senior official blasting the president's "amorality" and launched a frantic hunt for the author, who claims to be part of a secret "resistance" inside the government protecting the nation from its commander in chief.

The extraordinary column, published anonymously in the _New York Times_, surfaced one day after the first excerpts emerged from Bob Woodward's new book, in which Trump's top advisers painted a devastating portrait of the president and described a "crazytown" atmosphere inside the White House.

Taken together, they landed like a thunder clap, portraying Trump as a danger to the country that elected him and feeding the president's paranoia about who around him he can trust.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...es-shaken-by-op-ed-piece-20180907-p5029q.html


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> ............
> *Washington:* President Donald Trump and his aides have reacted with indignation to an unsigned opinion column from a senior official blasting the president's "amorality" and launched a frantic hunt for the author, *who claims to be part of a secret "resistance" inside the government protecting the nation from its commander in chief.*
> 
> ..............





Self appointed moral guardians of the dandy generation. Bring on treason charges.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Self appointed moral guardians of the dandy generation. Bring on treason charges.




If the Don was about to press the nuclear trigger because a country turned down his request to put a golf course on a National Park one would hope that someone would try and stop him.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> If the Don was about to press the nuclear trigger because a country turned down his request to put a golf course on a National Park one would hope that someone would try and stop him.




He seems to like Russian real estate, so if they turn him down things could get interesting....... imagine the chattering classes then ... like boys with two dicks!


----------



## Darc Knight

"George Papadopoulos, the Trump campaign adviser who triggered the Russia investigation, was sentenced to 14 days in prison on Friday (local time) by a judge who said he had placed his own interests above those of the country ......
Papadopoulos, who served as a foreign policy adviser to President Donald Trump's campaign, has been a central figure in the Russia investigation dating back before Mueller's May 2017 appointment. He was the first to plead guilty in Mueller's probe and is now the first Trump campaign adviser to be sentenced."







http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...adopoulos-sentence-to-14-days-prison/10216896


----------



## SirRumpole

Liked the sign.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> "George Papadopoulos, the Trump campaign adviser who triggered the Russia investigation, was sentenced to 14 days in prison on Friday (local time) by a judge who said he had placed his own interests above those of the country ......
> Papadopoulos, who served as a foreign policy adviser to President Donald Trump's campaign, has been a central figure in the Russia investigation dating back before Mueller's May 2017 appointment. He was the first to plead guilty in Mueller's probe and is now the first Trump campaign adviser to be sentenced."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...adopoulos-sentence-to-14-days-prison/10216896



Everything the fbi tried charging him with was prior to his involvement with Trump.
As soon as he thought there was going to be an issue he was off the Trump team.

And you know what they ended up getting him with: lying to the fbi.
Thats right jailed for not cooperating with the fbi. Huge charges there


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Self appointed moral guardians of the dandy generation. Bring on treason charges.




Sort of sums it up doesn't ?  Here we  have one of the most venal, corrupt and dangerous US Presidents of all time getting called out by a member of his own staff *who points out they are saving us from some of the most dangerous Presidental actions  and

1) Il Presidente says this is TREASON!! 
2) The peanut gallery sings in unison.
*
Why not just make him President for life, give him powers of succcession,  offer total immunity,  declare Trump Law, suspend the  Constitution and jail the Press for TREASON. That be enough?


----------



## Darc Knight




----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Sort of sums it up doesn't ?  Here we  have one of the most venal, corrupt and dangerous US Presidents of all time getting called out by a member of his own staff *who points out they are saving us from some of the most dangerous Presidental actions  and
> 
> 1) Il Presidente says this is TREASON!!
> 2) The peanut gallery sings in unison.
> *
> Why not just make him President for life, give him powers of succcession,  offer total immunity,  declare Trump Law, suspend the  Constitution and jail the Press for TREASON. That be enough?




What evidence is there that this even happened? Those quoted fired back that they never said what was in the book and that its fiction.

I see a lot of lefty screeching but not much evidence. Media telling lies with supposed "anonymous sources".  Or outright lies.
Multiple billionaires donating (bribing) for anyone to come out with dirt. And funding leftist loon hate groups.

Russian collusion theory that is full of holes and looks a lot like a dnc setup.

I was expecting papadopoulos to get 20 years the way the media was talking. Instead it was just 14 days from an fbi "perjury trap".


----------



## Darc Knight

Mo, what News and current affairs do you view/listen to?


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> Mo, what News and current affairs do you view/listen to?




News Incorporated? The best there is


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> What evidence is there that this even happened? Those quoted fired back that they never said what was in the book and that its fiction.
> 
> I see a lot of lefty screeching but not much evidence. Media telling lies with supposed "anonymous sources".  Or outright lies.
> Multiple billionaires donating (bribing) for anyone to come out with dirt. And funding leftist loon hate groups.
> 
> Russian collusion theory that is full of holes and looks a lot like a dnc setup.
> 
> I was expecting papadopoulos to get 20 years the way the media was talking. Instead it was just 14 days from an fbi "perjury trap".




Trump did actually called for the imprisonment, banning etc. of those despicable "protestors" being so rude at the confirmation hearing for "his" pick to to the Supreme Court.

Apparently those lefties didn't get the memo his White House sent to American CEOs about how great Kavanaugh is for big business. They only get to read his record on excusing torture, war crimes, racial profiling, ending women's rights etc. 

If Chairman Kim, president Xi and president Putin won't put up with any protest, why should prsident Trump? We're better than all those countries aren't we, he thought.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Mo, what News and current affairs do you view/listen to?



If there is evidence to the contrary then put it up and I'll consider it. But so far its just media bs. If you cut through the sht there isn't much left. And bugger all evidence. 



luutzu said:


> Apparently those lefties didn't get the memo his White House sent to American CEOs about how great Kavanaugh is for big business. They only get to read his record on excusing torture, war crimes, racial profiling, ending women's rights etc.
> 
> If Chairman Kim, president Xi and president Putin won't put up with any protest, why should prsident Trump? We're better than all those countries aren't we, he thought.




Kavanaugh is actually a respected judge. The dems are grandstanding before midterms. 

Excusing war crimes?  
He was asked about the Constitution and how far they were in the grey area with the framework  from memory. 

He has being grilled for the last few days. If anyone looks stupid its the Democrats and their inane questioning.

Read up the transcripts.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> If there is evidence to the contrary then put it up and I'll consider it. But so far its just media bs. If you cut through the sht there isn't much left. And bugger all evidence.
> Kavanaugh is actually a respected judge. The dems are grandstanding before midterms.
> 
> Excusing war crimes?
> He was asked about the Constitution and how far they were in the grey area with the framework  from memory.
> 
> He has being grilled for the last few days. If anyone looks stupid its the Democrats and their inane questioning.
> 
> Read up the transcripts.




He was under Bush Jr's AG Gonzalez. The two of them got to rip up quite a few US Constitutional clauses. Stuff like a US citizen having the right to be tried in a court under their peers; stuff on US treaty being the law of the land... that's idiotic if it stops you from torturing "bad guys" or taking out entire buildings full of them.

So now, any US president can declare a US citizen "a bad guy" and that "Muslim" can have their rights, or their life, taken away; sent off somewhere to be dealt with. 

Torture is a war crime. So is taking out people you think might, maybe, one day, in the future, possibly, do you harm. Imagine if we all get to pre-emptively take out anyone who doesn't like us, talk nicely about us, possibly take our stuff we if aren't careful.

Then there's all that spying, surveillance on US citizens. Ey, if you don't do anything "bad", what's there to hide.

But you're right that the Democrats are playing political theatre with these hearings. That douche Booker... talk about Obama-lite.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Sort of sums it up doesn't ?  Here we  have one of the most venal, corrupt and dangerous US Presidents of all time getting called out by a member of his own staff *who points out they are saving us from some of the most dangerous Presidental actions  and
> 
> 1) Il Presidente says this is TREASON!!
> 2) The peanut gallery sings in unison.
> *
> Why not just make him President for life, give him powers of succcession,  offer total immunity,  declare Trump Law, suspend the  Constitution and jail the Press for TREASON. That be enough?




Facts predicated on innuendo and fantasy don't really cut as facts.

For any of us to make a value judgement of Trump corruption we need verifiable facts and they won't avail themselves to date.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> He was under Bush Jr's AG Gonzalez. The two of them got to rip up quite a few US Constitutional clauses. Stuff like a US citizen having the right to be tried in a court under their peers; stuff on US treaty being the law of the land... that's idiotic if it stops you from torturing "bad guys" or taking out entire buildings full of them.
> 
> So now, any US president can declare a US citizen "a bad guy" and that "Muslim" can have their rights, or their life, taken away; sent off somewhere to be dealt with.
> 
> Torture is a war crime. So is taking out people you think might, maybe, one day, in the future, possibly, do you harm. Imagine if we all get to pre-emptively take out anyone who doesn't like us, talk nicely about us, possibly take our stuff we if aren't careful.
> 
> Then there's all that spying, surveillance on US citizens. Ey, if you don't do anything "bad", what's there to hide.
> 
> But you're right that the Democrats are playing political theatre with these hearings. That douche Booker... talk about Obama-lite.



Bush was as bad as Obama. In fact they were basically on the same page with continuing a lot of stuff. 

Judges are often drafted in on their expertise with the Constitution. I'm sure Kavanaugh was friendly to the bush camp though.
I have no doubt all sides would love to follow the bits of the constitution they love. And get rid of the bits they don't like.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Facts predicated on innuendo and fantasy don't really cut as facts.
> 
> For any of us to make a value judgement of Trump corruption we need verifiable facts and they won't avail themselves to date.




Back to alternative truths again Tisme ? Or just acutely selective seeing and hearing.

In any case the anonymous Mad House insider story isn't about the corruption of Donald Trump.

It is about his fitness to be President and the (alleged) efforts of his staff to protect him and everyone else from the worst consequences of his  intentions.
Now of course this story  may be a total lie. Just a fabrication from the New York Times to undermine Donald Trump.
Or the writer could be a total liar. He just wanted to create some sort of mayhem for Donald Trump.
Is this the reality you wish to believe ?
On a similar note Bob Woodward is about to release his book on the Trump Whitehouse after hundreds of hours of converstaion with White House staff. Will these all be fabrications?

*Is Bob Woodward a calculated liar ?*
And then earlier this year Michael  Wolff broke his own story on the Trump Presidency again based on interviews with many admin staff.  Was this all fabrication ? *Was he also a liar ?
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...de-the-trump-white-house-michael-wolff-review
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/27/media-madness-book-howard-kurtz-donald-trump

* Bob Woodward's book details Trump's chaotic and dysfunctional White House 
Fear is based on hundreds of hours of conversations with key players, according to the author, who uncovered the Watergate scandal

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/04/bob-woodward-book-fear-donald-trump-white-house

*


----------



## basilio

*Donald Trump and Corruption. *Enriching himself through the office of President.
Consider the following.

* A Year in Trump Corruption *
*Here’s every time Trump has profited off the presidency.*


by Nicole Narea
 Magazine 




Joshua Alvarez
E_ditor’s note: For our Jan/Feb/March 2018 issue, Nicole Narea walks through the ways in which Donald Trump spent his first year in office brazenly enriching himself and his businesses, making a mockery of the notion that the interests of the American people should come before the president’s own bottom line. While past presidents divested of their assets or placed them in a blind trust, Trump merely shifted day-to-day control of his business onto his sons, who continue to brief him, and placed his assets in a trust that he can withdraw from whenever he wants. Read Nicole’s article for an explanation of which conduct is clearly unconstitutional and which is technically legal but deeply improper._

_The rate of misbehavior, by both the president and those hoping to curry his favor, has been dizzying to keep track of. Mainstream news organizations have done an impressive job documenting each instance of profiteering, but as far as we can tell, none have pulled them all together in one place. The following is our attempt to do just that. If there are any examples we’ve missed, please email us at editors@washingtonmonthly.com. 

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january-february-march-2018/a-year-in-trump-corruption/_


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Bush was as bad as Obama. In fact they were basically on the same page with continuing a lot of stuff.
> 
> Judges are often drafted in on their expertise with the Constitution. I'm sure Kavanaugh was friendly to the bush camp though.
> I have no doubt all sides would love to follow the bits of the constitution they love. And get rid of the bits they don't like.




I supposed no political leaders should be judged on how they treat foreigners and barbarians. I mean, if that were the case pretty much all political leaders throughout history would be guilty of crimes against humanity. 

So let's be generous, and Machiavellian, and let them pass that one hurdle. Let St. Peter decide that one.

Obama is, yea, same as Bush Jr. regarding the American plebs. But he speaks better though. Trump is no match by a long mile when it comes to teleprompters delivery. Trump, there are two of them old man.

----------
Maybe judges on the lower courts are picked for their understanding of the law. The higher ones get there because they've shown themselves to be useful to certain group of people (who picked them). 

Any idiot can know and understand the law. It take a special kind of idiot to know it so well they could spin it however you like.

With the new US chiefs... kiss all that labour, union rights; environmental protection etc. etc. goodbye. 

Good thing all Americans own stocks and play the financial markets. Those that don't will get properly stuffed.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Donald Trump and Corruption. *Enriching himself through the office of President.
> Consider the following.
> 
> * A Year in Trump Corruption *
> *Here’s every time Trump has profited off the presidency.*
> 
> 
> by Nicole Narea
> Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua Alvarez
> E_ditor’s note: For our Jan/Feb/March 2018 issue, Nicole Narea walks through the ways in which Donald Trump spent his first year in office brazenly enriching himself and his businesses, making a mockery of the notion that the interests of the American people should come before the president’s own bottom line. While past presidents divested of their assets or placed them in a blind trust, Trump merely shifted day-to-day control of his business onto his sons, who continue to brief him, and placed his assets in a trust that he can withdraw from whenever he wants. Read Nicole’s article for an explanation of which conduct is clearly unconstitutional and which is technically legal but deeply improper._
> 
> _The rate of misbehavior, by both the president and those hoping to curry his favor, has been dizzying to keep track of. Mainstream news organizations have done an impressive job documenting each instance of profiteering, but as far as we can tell, none have pulled them all together in one place. The following is our attempt to do just that. If there are any examples we’ve missed, please email us at editors@washingtonmonthly.com.
> 
> https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january-february-march-2018/a-year-in-trump-corruption/_



"Technically legal".... so legal but going to bitchh about it anyway.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> "Technically legal".... so legal but going to bitchh about it anyway.




Unwilling to note the sections which outline totally corrupt practices ?

*Corruption Type 1: Foreign Emoluments*
_“No person holding any office of profit or trust under [the United States], shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.”
U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 9

17 examples

*Corruption Type 2: Domestic Emoluments*
“The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.”

 –U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 1

24 examples_


----------



## Darc Knight

I admire your tenacity Bas, but you know Mo and other Trump fan boys emulate Trump's tactics and will argue the Sun rises in the West if it suits.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> *Donald Trump and Corruption. *Enriching himself through the office of President.
> Consider the following.
> 
> * A Year in Trump Corruption *
> *Here’s every time Trump has profited off the presidency.*
> 
> 
> by Nicole Narea
> Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua Alvarez
> E_ditor’s note: For our Jan/Feb/March 2018 issue, Nicole Narea walks through the ways in which Donald Trump spent his first year in office brazenly enriching himself and his businesses, making a mockery of the notion that the interests of the American people should come before the president’s own bottom line. While past presidents divested of their assets or placed them in a blind trust, Trump merely shifted day-to-day control of his business onto his sons, who continue to brief him, and placed his assets in a trust that he can withdraw from whenever he wants. Read Nicole’s article for an explanation of which conduct is clearly unconstitutional and which is technically legal but deeply improper._
> 
> _The rate of misbehavior, by both the president and those hoping to curry his favor, has been dizzying to keep track of. Mainstream news organizations have done an impressive job documenting each instance of profiteering, but as far as we can tell, none have pulled them all together in one place. The following is our attempt to do just that. If there are any examples we’ve missed, please email us at editors@washingtonmonthly.com.
> 
> https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january-february-march-2018/a-year-in-trump-corruption/_




That's one long list.

A list on the Trump's kids would definitely be longer.

There's Ivanka and her husband earning some $150M alone during Daddy's first year in office. 
Both while they act as senior advisors to the president of the United States (or Dad). 

Before Daddy became the man, their businesses were poor to failing. After taking on responsibilities for women's rights, world peace, peace in the Middle East, women entrepreneurialship and empowerment... their profit picks up like someone's paying them for access.

If it weren't clear before, it's in your face obvious how corrupt American politics is. 

I mean, Chelsea got some a $250K job right out of uni; hubby got a couple hedge fund to play with. But those are just peanuts compare to the Trump clan.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Unwilling to note the sections which outline totally corrupt practices ?
> 
> *Corruption Type 1: Foreign Emoluments*
> _“No person holding any office of profit or trust under [the United States], shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.”
> U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 9
> 
> 17 examples
> 
> *Corruption Type 2: Domestic Emoluments*
> “The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.”
> 
> –U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 1
> 
> 24 examples_



When is he getting charged again?


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> I admire your tenacity Bas, but you know Mo and other Trump fan boys emulate Trump's tactics and will argue the Sun rises in the West if it suits.



Pretty sure posting alternative facts like outlining  "technically legal" as corrupt practices, is bs wrapped as fact. How many other politicians are being lambasted over "technically legal" strategies?

I'm not saying its right. But it's not new.


----------



## basilio

Darc Knight said:


> I admire your tenacity Bas, but you know Mo and other Trump fan boys emulate Trump's tactics and will argue the Sun rises in the West if it suits.




Which, in a nutshell, is why there are so many better ways  for me to spend my time.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> When is he getting charged again?




When the Justice Department have the guts to follow the law.

At some stage moxjo one has to look at clearly criminal behaviour and acknowledge that reality. The facts that people are currently getting away with these activities  doesn't change the reality of the behaviour.

I will acknowledge that there are grey areas in politics. Trying to run a completly honest political system is an ideal, rather than a reality. For the sake of discussion that third section of dodgy deals around Trump probably fits that catergory.

I suggest  the facts are on the ground to show that Donald Trump use of office to enrich himself and his family has completely trashed the legal and understood expectations of the Presidency in regard to emoluments.


----------



## moXJO

.


basilio said:


> When the Justice Department have the guts to follow the law.
> 
> At some stage moxjo one has to look at clearly criminal behaviour and acknowledge that reality. The facts that people are currently getting away with these activities  doesn't change the reality of the behaviour.
> 
> I will acknowledge that there are grey areas in politics. Trying to run a completly honest political system is an ideal, rather than a reality. For the sake of discussion that third section of dodgy deals around Trump probably fits that catergory.
> 
> I suggest  the facts are on the ground to show that Donald Trump use of office to enrich himself and his family has completely trashed the legal and understood expectations of the Presidency in regard to emoluments.



I have no doubt he has set up a structure to do just that. But if it wasn't in the confines of the law he would be butt raped. There are literally thousands of progressive lawyers that are being paid to make his life hell by billionaires that hate him.
So insinuating he is corrupt is another midterm tactic. 

Personally I think he dances along the line between legal and illegal. But personal opinion isn't fact and shouldn't pose as fact.


----------



## basilio

*Criminal behaviour allowed to flourish*

If we go back to the 1920's we can see how gangsters like Al Capone ran huge criminal empires from their public hotel rooms.

"Everyone" knew what was happening. The public, the police, the politicians.  The politicians and the police either took the bribes, looked away - or took the consequences. You could equally argue then  "When is Al going to get charged ? "

It took a very small group of "Untouchables " to bring Al Capone to justice.  And then the one crime they decided to make stick was tax evasion. I don't think it's a surprise that current investigations into the raft of crooked Trump confidantes is focusing on the money trails and tax evasion that appears to have happened.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Criminal behaviour allowed to flourish*
> 
> If we go back to the 1920's we can see how gangsters like Al Capone ran huge criminal empires from their public hotel rooms.
> 
> "Everyone" knew what was happening. The public, the police, the politicians.  The politicians and the police either took the bribes, looked away - or took the consequences. You could equally argue then  "When is Al going to get charged ? "
> 
> It took a very small group of "Untouchables " to bring Al Capone to justice.  And then the one crime they decided to make stick was tax evasion. I don't think it's a surprise that current investigations into the raft of crooked Trump confidantes is focusing on the money trails and tax evasion that appears to have happened.



Capone was an outright criminal who had everyone in the pocket. He worked in cash. And could kill or bribe anyone that was a threat. Harder to chase a paper trail back then as well.

Trump is being accused of corruption because of the way he structures,  like they all do.

 If we were going along that route,  then why are all the politicians that structure  not being investigated?

Clintons, bushes and all the rest have skeletons that are wrapped up under a neat structure that makes it legal. Clinton donations stand out (bribes anyone).


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Clintons, bushes and all the rest have skeletons that are wrapped up under a neat structure that makes it legal. Clinton donations stand out (bribes anyone).





Dick Cheney & Haliburton ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/us/a-closer-look-at-cheney-and-halliburton.html


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Dick Cheney & Haliburton ?
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/us/a-closer-look-at-cheney-and-halliburton.html



Muller, Comey and lockheed martin was a suss looking event as well. And that was huge money.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Capone was an outright criminal who had everyone in the pocket. He worked in cash. And could kill or bribe anyone that was a threat. Harder to chase a paper trail back then as well.
> 
> Trump is being accused of corruption because of the way he structures,  like they all do.
> 
> If we were going along that route,  then why are all the politicians that structure  not being investigated?
> 
> Clintons, bushes and all the rest have skeletons that are wrapped up under a neat structure that makes it legal. Clinton donations stand out (bribes anyone).




Two wrong don't make a right?

You're right that they're all corrupt. That's why all the established republicans loses to Trump; why Clinton lost to Bernie and have to cheat to win. Then lost to Trump for he promised to empty the swamp.

Evens in Iraq this past week never really register with Western politicians. Maybe they reckon the newly empowered and properly militarised police (and military personnel if needed) would quell any and all unrest... I guess living in a bubble doesn't give you access to the History Channel.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Dick Cheney & Haliburton ?
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/us/a-closer-look-at-cheney-and-halliburton.html




Wait... they already awarded contracts for oil *before* the invasion to liberate the Iraqis? Priorities eh.

Haliburton gave him a few million stock options before he left to serve his country. I guess he'd be too busy to wonder how much he'd made if Haliburton's stock goes up from no-bid, cost-plus contracts.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Two wrong don't make a right?
> 
> You're right that they're all corrupt. That's why all the established republicans loses to Trump; why Clinton lost to Bernie and have to cheat to win. Then lost to Trump for he promised to empty the swamp.



Who said anyone did anything wrong. Pretty sure they followed the rules. 

Democrats of old are losing to the new generation of up and comers for midterm selection. Gop had a similar thing happening during Obama.

Is it going to be better? 
I doubt it. Greed, stupidity, ego and power trips are the only things you can bank on.

I suppose trump does take the focus off the rest of them.
 But he has exposed the inner workings of:
Government 
Lobbyists
Media
Business 

Intentional or not, people have been made aware of the propaganda that oozes out from all sides.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Who said anyone did anything wrong. Pretty sure they followed the rules.
> 
> Democrats of old are losing to the new generation of up and comers for midterm selection. Gop had a similar thing happening during Obama.
> 
> Is it going to be better?
> I doubt it. Greed, stupidity, ego and power trips are the only things you can bank on.
> 
> I suppose trump does take the focus off the rest of them.
> But he has exposed the inner workings of:
> Government
> Lobbyists
> Media
> Business
> 
> Intentional or not, people have been made aware of the propaganda that oozes out from all sides.




Yea, don't think the new, tanner, group of democrats are going to change much. That's even if they honestly wanted to.

With bankers, inside established interests tapping into your every move... a politician have got to be a saint to not have any dirt on that can be use against them. Those that are saintly won't be in politics in the first place, so the plebs better do what they always do if they want change... take to the street and scare the crap out of their masters.

I'm beginning to think that the establishment will make Trump a scrapegoat. Not that he's innocent or saintly... not that he haven't done them, and his own family, trillions of favours.... Just that the image he portray doesn't suit with the national narrative of a perfect, saintly, enlightened God-president.

It would be suicidal for the ruling elite to have the head of state an obviously slimey lying idiot. It doesn't serve the empire and that fascade of enlightened people's representative and imperial majesty PR stunts.

Not that the majority doesn't know it. Just that Trump makes it almost impossible to spin it any other way. I mean, with Obama and Billy Clinton.. .they're so smooth and polite you can pull the bs off. With Trump, even his stupid hair give them a hard time making it look not-too-alive.

Just read how a "handful" of Iraqis in Basra take to the street, break into gov't offices and lit it alight. They apparently, "perceive" and alledged political corruption, not giving two-farks about the people, jobs, infrastructure, clean drinking water.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> *Criminal behaviour allowed to flourish*
> 
> If we go back to the 1920's we can see how gangsters like Al Capone ran huge criminal empires from their public hotel rooms.
> 
> "Everyone" knew what was happening. The public, the police, the politicians.  The politicians and the police either took the bribes, looked away - or took the consequences. You could equally argue then  "When is Al going to get charged ? "
> 
> It took a very small group of "Untouchables " to bring Al Capone to justice.  And then the one crime they decided to make stick was tax evasion. I don't think it's a surprise that current investigations into the raft of crooked Trump confidantes is focusing on the money trails and tax evasion that appears to have happened.




Um.... you are now using facts from fictional novels as the basis to demonise Trump?! Where can I buy this kind of truth licence .... Kellogs or Sanitarium? What next ...perhaps comparing Meuller to Mickey Spillane?

Cutty Sark drinking Elliot Ness and his rotating group managed to rack up 5000 failed bootleging counts against the man he never met (until perhaps the tax evasion court case). After that Ness moved onto Cleveland, eventually becoming a director of some police dept, where the tommy guns and staged fire fights happened with petty criminals for the paper column serials. 

Eighteen of the twenty three tax evasion charges where unprovable ... it was the Federal Treasury agents who pinged Capone, not Ness and the judge went back on the agreement of 2.5. years making it 11.

And the  "public hotel rooms" ... the man spent his time living it up all over he country ... they arrested him in Florida while having a whale of a time at the track, trips to the Bahamas, etc.

I can just imagine the American press getting hold of the Trump fiction and turning it into fact.... oh hang on they are already doing that and even daydreaming Australians are lapping it up as an imperative ..... enter Batman to the rescue.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Capone was an outright criminal who had everyone in the pocket. He worked in cash. And could kill or bribe anyone that was a threat. Harder to chase a paper trail back then as well.
> 
> ....





You don't consider Bas' allegory of Capone versus Trump as emblematic of Predator versus Alien? One is mind numbing entertainment escapism, but the other costs you a ticket at the cinema


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Sort of sums it up doesn't ?  Here we  have one of the most venal, corrupt and dangerous US Presidents of all time getting called out by a member of his own staff *who points out they are saving us from some of the most dangerous Presidental actions  and
> 
> 1) Il Presidente says this is TREASON!!
> 2) The peanut gallery sings in unison.
> *
> Why not just make him President for life, give him powers of succcession,  offer total immunity,  declare Trump Law, suspend the  Constitution and jail the Press for TREASON. That be enough?




The USA needs a long awaited wake up call of what constitutes it's democracy and what constitutes freedom of the media to tell gross lies to all too willing ears. Inciting to war by the media should see the owners in court for treason.


----------



## basilio

Re. Al Capone and his demise
A few facts.

1) Al Capone lived in the Hotel Lexington in Chichago for three years from from 1928 to 1931 when he was arrested. It was his home and base of criminal operations.
2) We don't have to accept the Hollywood glorification of Elliot Ness and The Untouchables. Yeah it was a huge beat up.   But the basic facts were quite clear in the reference Tisme used (even if he ignored them.)

"
_Ness graduated from the University of Chicago and followed his brother-in-law into the Prohibition Bureau. Six feet tall, quiet, honorable in his work but not in his marriages. He helped put together a rotating group of agents who spent the first six months of 1931 raiding Capone’s hidden breweries. His car was stolen three times, his office phone line was tapped, he was offered bribes, and a friend/informant was shot four times in the face.

Still, he and his crew — which ranged from six to a dozen or so — put together a 5,000-count bootlegging indictment against Capone. They were dubbed “the untouchables” in a 1931 Chicago newspaper story because they refused bribes.

U.S. Attorney George E.Q. Johnson in Chicago loved Ness’s work but opted to prosecute Capone on tax-evasion charges, as the jurors (like most everybody else) loved to drink but loathed tax cheats. Ness gave reporters who covered his raids some of the impounded booze (cough, cough) which helped him grab headlines. The man himself was fond of Cutty Sark. He was given to spells of depression.
_
It was difficult to finally convict Al Capone. The story makes it clear that convicting Al on bootlegging was problematic.  The judge did decide to give him a 11 year stretch for tax evasion even though a "norm" might have been 2-3 years. Maybe he also believed this tax evading "businessman" had a bit more behind him than some shonky tax bills ?

*Does any of this change the reality that Al Capone dominated the politics and police force of his day while being  the leader of a bunch of murderous thugs ?

And do we recognise that Donald Trump has much in common with this populist bootlegger including the fact that to date he has managed to avoid legal consequences for many of his activities ?
*
https://chicago.curbed.com/2014/3/2...k-at-al-capones-former-hq-the-lexington-hotel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...e7c922ef31e_story.html?utm_term=.bc5165e3ecb0
https://msu.edu/~szandzi2/alcapone/legacy.html


----------



## basilio

Back in Trumpland.  Why has Bob Woodwards book about the Trump administration "Fear " created such interest ?  This review is well worth a read.

* Fear review: Bob Woodward's dragnet descends on Donald Trump *
 Donald Trump 

The Watergate reporter has written another sober, must-read dissection of corruption and rot at the White House

Lloyd Green

Sat 8 Sep 2018 15.00 AEST   Last modified on Sun 9 Sep 2018 00.34 AEST

*Shares*
2144




Donald Trump stares at the press. Photograph: MAI/Rex/Shutterstock

....Like Joe Friday on Dragnet, Jack Webb’s television classic, Woodward’s Fear is big on facts and short on hyperventilation. It is not Fire and Fury redux or Omarosa 2.0. Rather, it is a sober account of how we reached this vertiginous point. Woodward’s words are quotidian but the story he tells is chilling. Like Trump himself, the characters that populate Woodward’s narrative are Runyonesque and foul-mouthed.

Lifting papers from your boss’s desk because you disapprove of his policy choices is not standard operating procedure. Trashing everyone in your circle is not an effective means of engendering loyalty. Reflexively dissembling to your personal lawyer when Robert Mueller holds your fate in his hands is akin to a death wish.

As Woodward frames things, “Trump had one overriding problem” that his personal lawyer, John Dowd, an ex-marine, “knew but could not bring himself to say to the president: ‘You’re a xxxing liar.’”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/08/fear-review-bob-woodward-donald-trump


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Back in Trumpland.  Why has Bob Woodwards book about the Trump administration "Fear " created such interest ?  This review is well worth a read.
> 
> * Fear review: Bob Woodward's dragnet descends on Donald Trump *
> Donald Trump
> 
> The Watergate reporter has written another sober, must-read dissection of corruption and rot at the White House
> 
> Lloyd Green
> 
> Sat 8 Sep 2018 15.00 AEST   Last modified on Sun 9 Sep 2018 00.34 AEST
> 
> *Shares*
> 2144
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump stares at the press. Photograph: MAI/Rex/Shutterstock
> 
> ....Like Joe Friday on Dragnet, Jack Webb’s television classic, Woodward’s Fear is big on facts and short on hyperventilation. It is not Fire and Fury redux or Omarosa 2.0. Rather, it is a sober account of how we reached this vertiginous point. Woodward’s words are quotidian but the story he tells is chilling. Like Trump himself, the characters that populate Woodward’s narrative are Runyonesque and foul-mouthed.
> 
> Lifting papers from your boss’s desk because you disapprove of his policy choices is not standard operating procedure. Trashing everyone in your circle is not an effective means of engendering loyalty. Reflexively dissembling to your personal lawyer when Robert Mueller holds your fate in his hands is akin to a death wish.
> 
> As Woodward frames things, “Trump had one overriding problem” that his personal lawyer, John Dowd, an ex-marine, “knew but could not bring himself to say to the president: ‘You’re a xxxing liar.’”
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/08/fear-review-bob-woodward-donald-trump





“The contemptuous words about the President attributed to me in Woodward’s book were never uttered by me or in my presence,” Mattis said in a statement. “While I generally enjoy reading fiction, this is a uniquely Washington brand of literature, and his anonymous sources do not lend credibility.”

Mattis went on to cite his work to date with Trump to improve military readiness, strike the Islamic State and get NATO allies to contribute more to defense.


Mattis is not the only official in the book who allegedly attacked Trump’s intellect or decision-making. Retired Marine Corps Gen. John Kelly, the White House chief of staff, is quoted as saying the president is an idiot, and that it’s the worst job he’s ever had.

Kelly issued a similar denial through the White House.

“The idea I ever called the President an idiot is not true," Kelly said in a statement.

He called the book passage “another pathetic attempt to smear people close to President Trump and distract from the administration’s many successes.”

Similar alleged statements by former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, who reportedly called Trump a “moron,” were cited as one of the reasons Tillerson ultimately left the position after just a year on the job, leading to questions about Mattis' and Kelly’s own tenures.

It’s been speculated that Mattis, who has been out of the loop on several key White House decisions, may also be leaving the administration before Trump’s first term is complete. Aides close to Mattis have previously said that they expect he will stay for the whole term if asked, due to some of the internal Pentagon readiness issues he is closely focused on and would like to see through to fruition.


----------



## basilio

Mattis ? John Kelly ?

They are hardly likely to say anything else at this stage  are they they Moxjo?

What do you reckon ?  Bob Woodward just made all this up ?  Just a total fiction ?  Just like the other bag of books from the Mad House this year ?  

Perhaps the thought of being summarily charged with treason and sent to Sing Sing focused their lips a safer response.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Re. Al Capone and his demise
> A few facts.
> 
> 1) Al Capone lived in the Hotel Lexington in Chichago for three years from from 1928 to 1931 when he was arrested. It was his home and base of criminal operations.
> 2) We don't have to accept the Hollywood glorification of Elliot Ness and The Untouchables. Yeah it was a huge beat up.   But the basic facts were quite clear in the reference Tisme used (even if he ignored them.)
> 
> "
> _Ness graduated from the University of Chicago and followed his brother-in-law into the Prohibition Bureau. Six feet tall, quiet, honorable in his work but not in his marriages. He helped put together a rotating group of agents who spent the first six months of 1931 raiding Capone’s hidden breweries. His car was stolen three times, his office phone line was tapped, he was offered bribes, and a friend/informant was shot four times in the face.
> 
> Still, he and his crew — which ranged from six to a dozen or so — put together a 5,000-count bootlegging indictment against Capone. They were dubbed “the untouchables” in a 1931 Chicago newspaper story because they refused bribes.
> 
> U.S. Attorney George E.Q. Johnson in Chicago loved Ness’s work but opted to prosecute Capone on tax-evasion charges, as the jurors (like most everybody else) loved to drink but loathed tax cheats. Ness gave reporters who covered his raids some of the impounded booze (cough, cough) which helped him grab headlines. The man himself was fond of Cutty Sark. He was given to spells of depression.
> _
> It was difficult to finally convict Al Capone. The story makes it clear that convicting Al on bootlegging was problematic.  The judge did decide to give him a 11 year stretch for tax evasion even though a "norm" might have been 2-3 years. Maybe he also believed this tax evading "businessman" had a bit more behind him than some shonky tax bills ?
> 
> *Does any of this change the reality that Al Capone dominated the politics and police force of his day while being  the leader of a bunch of murderous thugs ?
> 
> And do we recognise that Donald Trump has much in common with this populist bootlegger including the fact that to date he has managed to avoid legal consequences for many of his activities ?
> *
> https://chicago.curbed.com/2014/3/2...k-at-al-capones-former-hq-the-lexington-hotel
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...e7c922ef31e_story.html?utm_term=.bc5165e3ecb0
> https://msu.edu/~szandzi2/alcapone/legacy.html




You just can't handle the situation you were dead wrong and now you are still telling yarns. Capone was arrested March 27, 1927 in Florida, released on bond then re arrested in Philadelphia 2 for carrying a concealed weapon and sentenced for a year, when finally released in 1931 he was sentenced for 6 months on the original outstanding contempt of court charge. The Feds then charged him with income tax evasion and he got put away for 11 years where STDs made him too crook to be a crook and he died 1947 Amen.


----------



## luutzu

Plaid shirt guy at a Trump rally.

A bit like me hearing a Feng Shui master's advise.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> You just can't handle the situation you were dead wrong and now you are still telling yarns. Capone was arrested March 27, 1927 in Florida, released on bond then re arrested in Philadelphia 2 for carrying a concealed weapon and sentenced for a year, when finally released in 1931 he was sentenced for 6 months on the original outstanding contempt of court charge. The Feds then charged him with income tax evasion and he got put away for 11 years where STDs made him too crook to be a crook and he died 1947 Amen.




Rubbish.  If you can't actually read documents properly stop wasting our time.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Mattis ? John Kelly ?
> 
> They are hardly likely to say anything else at this stage  are they they Moxjo?
> 
> What do you reckon ?  Bob Woodward just made all this up ?  Just a total fiction ?  Just like the other bag of books from the Mad House this year ?
> 
> Perhaps the thought of being summarily charged with treason and sent to Sing Sing focused their lips a safer response.



You know who mattis is right?
I'd take his word over some cockroach reporter no matter how highly regarded amongst the other sewer rats.

Trump and  mattis ain't exactly friendly either.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> some cockroach reporter



That's Bob Woodward your referring to moxjo.

How about checking out his history. Might get an idea of who you are degrading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woodward

And more on General Mattis
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/mattis-woodward-trump/569350/


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Rubbish.  If you can't actually read documents properly stop wasting our time.




Really? Perhaps you might like to confer with the FBI site that lays it out for you.  Gotcha mate 

Now you have benchmarked the FBI as telling lies where do you go now with FBI and Trump? Back pedal again?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> That's Bob Woodward your referring to moxjo.
> 
> How about checking out his history. Might get an idea of who you are degrading.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woodward
> 
> And more on General Mattis
> https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/mattis-woodward-trump/569350/



I know who he is.

Wait you know he has history of exaggerations right


----------



## luutzu

Great interview on Trump and American adventurism, capitalism. 

Much of what he said was going to happen, happened.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> Really? Perhaps you might like to confer with the FBI site that lays it out for you.  Gotcha mate
> 
> Now you have benchmarked the FBI as telling lies where do you go now with FBI and Trump? Back pedal again?




The most cursory  look on the net using  Al Capone -LexingtonHotel will prove he used the hotel as a base for operations from 1928-1931. That doesn't mean of course that he didn't have interests in Miami, spend time in jail or flit around the country. You can do anything when you one of richest "businessman" in the US and have almost everyone in your pocket or too scared to say anything.

Indeed very much like the current Chief Crook.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I know who he is.
> 
> Wait you know he has history of exaggerations right




You mean as compared to Donald Trump ?  
No Donald doesn't exaggerate does he.  How shoudl we describe his discourse ?


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> The most cursory  look on the net using  Al Capone -LexingtonHotel will prove he used the hotel as a base for operations from 1928-1931. That doesn't mean of course that he didn't have interests in Miami, spend time in jail or flit around the country. You can do anything when you one of richest "businessman" in the US and have almost everyone in your pocket or too scared to say anything.
> 
> Indeed very much like the current Chief Crook.





He was in Eastern State Penitentiary between 1929 and 1930.


----------



## Darc Knight

You still campaigning for the Liberal Democrats Tisme? 

Mo still regurgitating some Right Wing friutloop website or Media organization


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> You still campaigning for the Liberal Democrats Tisme?
> 
> Mo still regurgitating some Right Wing friutloop website or Media organization




I don't really understand the hidden meaning behind your comment, can you elaborate or are you just flaming for sh1ts and giggles?


----------



## Darc Knight

Tisme said:


> I don't really understand the hidden meaning behind your comment, can you elaborate or are you just flaming for sh1ts and giggles?




Just observing your perstitent arguing with Bas. Surely everyone of her posts can't be incorrect.
But don't let me interrupt, it is amusing, although I feel for Bas.


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> Just observing your perstitent arguing with Bas. Surely everyone of her posts can't be incorrect.
> But don't let me interrupt, it is amusing, although I feel for Bas.




Yeah but all I've done is correct the record with FBI facts. On one hand you can't (shouldn't),  use the FBI as beacons of truth when it comes to Trump and then dismiss them when their facts don't gel with phantom stories, especially yarns about american folk heroes.

Wasn't me who tried to imply Trump was 'ol Scarface .... Likewise I don't see what he has to do with Liberal Democrats and Right Wing fruitloops?

As with Bas, Explod etc you obviously believe you have divine providence and implacable hatred of anything that isn't socialist herd mentality ... good for you, but it doesn't mean you are right. You can throw anything into the soup to justify whatever you like, but facts is facts.


----------



## Darc Knight

I 100℅ swear Tisme, if you run for Parliament I'll vote for you. 







That'll learn em!


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> He was in Eastern State Penitentiary between 1929 and 1930.



 Yes. And his business operations were still being run out of the Lexington. They didn't just "stop" did they because Al was in jail. There is no conflict  between the use of the Lexington as a base for running his business and being in jail for 9 months.,


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> I 100℅ swear Tisme, if you run for Parliament I'll vote for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That'll learn em!




I told you I don't entertain that stuff anymore...although I do keep my hand in at a local level. What party would I run with ..... two left parties that are merely a veneer of their working class or tree hugging origins; or a few right wing parties that are pretty much all two faced Roman Catholics taking their moral orders from skyfairy hocus pocus.

Karl Marx of one end and Guy Fawkes on the other with no room in the middle, above or below.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Yes. And his business operations were still being run out of the Lexington. They didn't just "stop" did they because Al was in jail. There is no conflict  between the use of the Lexington as a base for running his business and being in jail for 9 months.,




I can't comment on where his gang ran the business from because I haven't bothered checking, but he is suggestedto have had about five "headquarters" according to various sites. Might be worth looking into, starting with the Metropole Hotel just for edification reasons.


----------



## Tisme

Tisme said:


> I can't comment on where his gang ran the business from because I haven't bothered checking, but he is suggestedto have had about five "headquarters" according to various sites. Might be worth looking into, starting with the Metropole Hotel just for edification reasons.




Seems he was rather ensconced in Miami (93 Palm), not merely an itinerant visitor:

https://miami.curbed.com/2017/7/20/16003866/al-capone-miami-beach-house


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> You mean as compared to Donald Trump ?
> No Donald doesn't exaggerate does he.  How shoudl we describe his discourse ?



Do a search on that roach. I remember all the lies he told. Typical journalist.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Mo still regurgitating some Right Wing friutloop website or Media organization



Yes because actual factual  history is all right wing.
Woodward was a maggot of the highest order.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> Yes because actual factual  history is all right wing.
> Woodward was a maggot of the highest order.




Old man trying for one last hoorah using the same Deep Throat playbook.


----------



## moXJO

Tisme said:


> Old man trying for one last hoorah using the same Deep Throat playbook.



He did the same thing to Belushi. And the sources all said the same thing. He changed the story and mischaracterized what they had said. Guys like dan akyroyd said it was tabloid trash.

His other books like "the brethren" 
And the cia one really stretched into fantasy land.
Plenty of others that were called flat out lies.
 He has a long history. 
If a car was red he would spin it and lead. Eg:
 " While the car was red. Everyone know that it was really blue. And blue cars are evil."
Just another typical journo.


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


> I can't comment on where his gang ran the business from* because I haven't bothered checking,* but he is suggestedto have had about five "headquarters" according to various sites. Might be worth looking into, starting with the Metropole Hotel just for edification reasons.




Well what a surprise. Yeah Al Capone did use the Metrople as a business base.  That was before he moved to the Lexington.
He did have a big house in Miami. Lot like Mars a Lago I hear.. Be no surprise to discover he had other "headquarters"

But in the end the critical point I was making is the same.

*"It takes enormous strength to challenge a criminal of the order of Al Capone or Donald Trump"
*
Despite the fact that "everyone knew" Al was the boss of bootlegging, rackets and his gang his control of politicians, the police and the public protected him for years.

Similarly for Donald Trump. His use of the Presidents office to enrich himself and his family is on the table. Absolutely clear cut. But actually finding a way to bring himto account for these actions is long way off.


----------



## moXJO

*Winning*
Blue-collar jobs are growing at their fastest rate in more than 30 years, helping fuel a hiring boom in many small towns and rural areas that are strong supporters of President Trump ahead of November's midterm elections.

Jobs in goods-producing industries — mining, construction and manufacturing — grew 3.3 percent in the year preceding July, the best rate since 1984, according to a Washington Post analysis.

Blue-collar jobs, long a small and shrinking part of the U.S. economy, are now growing at a faster clip than those in the nation's much larger service economy. Many factors collided to produce the blue-collar boom. Some are linked to short-term boom-and-bust cycles, but others may endure.

The rapid hiring in blue-collar sectors is delivering benefits to areas that turned out heavily for Trump in the 2016 election, according to the Brookings Institution, a shift from earlier in this expansion, when large and midsize cities experienced most of the gains.



Go Trumpy boy.


----------



## Tisme

moXJO said:


> *Winning*
> Blue-collar jobs are growing at their fastest rate in more than 30 years, helping fuel a hiring boom in many small towns and rural areas that are strong supporters of President Trump ahead of November's midterm elections.
> 
> Jobs in goods-producing industries — mining, construction and manufacturing — grew 3.3 percent in the year preceding July, the best rate since 1984, according to a Washington Post analysis.
> 
> Blue-collar jobs, long a small and shrinking part of the U.S. economy, are now growing at a faster clip than those in the nation's much larger service economy. Many factors collided to produce the blue-collar boom. Some are linked to short-term boom-and-bust cycles, but others may endure.
> 
> The rapid hiring in blue-collar sectors is delivering benefits to areas that turned out heavily for Trump in the 2016 election, according to the Brookings Institution, a shift from earlier in this expansion, when large and midsize cities experienced most of the gains.
> 
> 
> 
> Go Trumpy boy.





Might be a good time to snap up the ghostal suburban houses in industrial cities.


----------



## moXJO

Ted tells it exactly as is. Clears up all the bs the dems and left are trying to pull. And the "progressive" attacks on freedom.


----------



## basilio

*'Get rid of the braille!' Trump's one-time war on the blind*
Send via Email
President Donald Trump in the early 1980s asked an architect to remove braille from planned residential elevators in Trump Tower in New York, saying blind people would not live there, according to a former longtime executive with the Trump Organisation.






No Braille here: The Trump Tower.

Photo: Hiroko Masuike
Barbara Res, a former vice president in charge of construction, made the allegation in a commentary published Wednesday by the _New York Daily News_ and in a subsequent interview with _The Washington Post_, in which she said the incident happened in 1980 or 1981 as Trump Tower was being designed.

According to Res's account, an architect came to Trump's office to show him designs for the interiors of residential elevator cabs in Trump Tower, which also hosts businesses. He noticed dots next to the buttons and asked what they were, she said.

"Braille," the architect replied, according to Res.

Trump then told the architect to "get rid of it," and the architect resisted, saying doing so would be against the law, she said.

"Get rid of the (expletive) braille. No blind people are going to live in Trump Tower. Just do it," Trump told the architect, according to Res's account.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...-the-blind-20180913-p503ec.html?crpt=homepage


----------



## Darc Knight

Good to see you fighting the good fight Bas. Don't let these Trump fan boy bullies put it over you.


----------



## basilio

Darc Knight said:


> Good to see you fighting the good fight Bas. Don't let these Trump fan boy bullies put it over you.



Careful what you say there DK. Any more comments like that and Tisme might accuse you of being my sock puppet - just an alternative identity on ASF.

He has got form for this you know.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Good to see you fighting the good fight Bas. Don't let these Trump fan boy bullies put it over you.



The "good fight" is retarded accusation posts?
Let me in on that!!! :

*TRUMP WIPES HIS ASS WITH DISABLED PUPPIES.*


----------



## basilio

Was my "accusation post" a lie Moxjo?  That Barbara Res, former VP  in charge of construction for Donald Trump just made up that story ?

Because of course if it is just a monstrous, awful lie the Don has every right to sue for defamation.  And on that point your post might attract such attention

But I thought this cartoon was on the money.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Was my "accusation post" a lie Moxjo?  That Barbara Res, former VP  in charge of construction for Donald Trump just made up that story ?
> 
> Because of course if it is just a monstrous, awful lie the Don has every right to sue for defamation.  And on that point your post might attract such attention
> 
> But I thought this cartoon was on the money.
> View attachment 89324



Pretty sure I said it was a "retarded accusation". Like the majority of the posts that spring up. 

Oh no, sued by the orange one. I'll get my lawyer's right onto it.


----------



## moXJO

The Google leak is the story right now. Not 1980s brail.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The Google leak is the story right now. Not 1980s brail.




The Donald is a much better man since is he? More kinder, gentler, understanding? Less of a racist pig and total douche?

Even Reuters call out his hatred for coloured folks. Well, it's not so much colour if they have money.

Honestly, I can somewhat understand the need to be psychotic at that level of authority, but Trump is just a mental case. His cruelty and pettiness is just un-freaking believable.

So in the middle of being told about hurrican Florence, he just goes into how "great" and "wonderful" and totally awesome he (and of course a few other people) have been in handling the clean up in Puerto Rico... where if he and his admin weren't so freakin racist, some 4,000 brown Americans wouldn't have died after their islands water, roads, grid were washed away. But it's an awesome effort the "fake news" aren't being straight with because they hate him.

Then there's the latest round of cutting $25m in healthcare to Palestinian refugees. Yea, go die somewhere else ya terrorist. Don' get sick next time.

Then there's the bragging about this and that awesome war machines and weapons he's selling...

Does he ever sit down and think things through? If there's money to be made, it's all good.

What a psycho.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> The Donald is a much better man since is he? More kinder, gentler, understanding? Less of a racist pig and total douche?
> 
> Even Reuters call out his hatred for coloured folks. Well, it's not so much colour if they have money.
> 
> Honestly, I can somewhat understand the need to be psychotic at that level of authority, but Trump is just a mental case. His cruelty and pettiness is just un-freaking believable.
> 
> So in the middle of being told about hurrican Florence, he just goes into how "great" and "wonderful" and totally awesome he (and of course a few other people) have been in handling the clean up in Puerto Rico... where if he and his admin weren't so freakin racist, some 4,000 brown Americans wouldn't have died after their islands water, roads, grid were washed away. But it's an awesome effort the "fake news" aren't being straight with because they hate him.
> 
> Then there's the latest round of cutting $25m in healthcare to Palestinian refugees. Yea, go die somewhere else ya terrorist. Don' get sick next time.
> 
> Then there's the bragging about this and that awesome war machines and weapons he's selling...
> 
> Does he ever sit down and think things through? If there's money to be made, it's all good.
> 
> What a psycho.



Yep,  _Classic_ _Trump_.
I only give a crap about the numbers.
And midterms should see him neutered.

As far as Palestine goes,  they are Iranian backed already. I hope we pulled all funding as well.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure I said it was a "retarded accusation". Like the majority of the posts that spring up.




The story was  the reflections of  a woman who worked with Donald Trump as a very senior exective for 10 years. She tells of a man who orders  his employees to do impossible or quite illegal or totally* stoopid  *tasks.  The employees have to learn to ignore many of the worst  ideas to save Don's neck. But they still get  slammed for not arbitarily sacking somone or  not putting the Braille dots in Trump Tower. 

This is just another observation of what sort of leader he is.  And incidentally it talllies almost identically with the comments made by all the people who have written books on the Trump administration.

It seems from the comments of almost everyone who works with that an unrestrained Donald Trump 
is a clear and present danger as President.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Yep,  _Classic_ _Trump_.
> 
> As far as Palestine goes,  they are Iranian backed already. I hope we pulled all funding as well.



Classy.. not. .  

What do you think shoud happen to 5 million men women and children ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Classy.. not. .
> 
> What do you think shoud happen to 5 million men women and children ?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees



Why the f@#k would you fund terrorism.  Oh thats right you're a lefty.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The story was  the reflections of  a woman who worked with Donald Trump as a very senior exective for 10 years. She tells of a man who orders  his employees to do impossible or quite illegal or totally* stoopid  *tasks.  The employees have to learn to ignore many of the worst  ideas to save Don's neck. But they still get  slammed for not arbitarily sacking somone or  not putting the Braille dots in Trump Tower.
> 
> This is just another observation of what sort of leader he is.  And incidentally it talllies almost identically with the comments made by all the people who have written books on the Trump administration.
> 
> It seems from the comments of almost everyone who works with that an unrestrained Donald Trump
> is a clear and present danger as President.



Allegedly. But good try.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Yep,  _Classic_ _Trump_.
> I only give a crap about the numbers.
> And midterms should see him neutered.
> 
> As far as Palestine goes,  they are Iranian backed already. I hope we pulled all funding as well.




I think you mean Syria. 

Palestinian refugees are those the Israelis kicked out and kept quiet in Jordan, Lebanon... and in concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank. You know, places where Trump's son-in-law is tasked with "peace negotiation" where the Palestinians just accept what's handed to them or else go die more miserably.

Regardless of yours, or Trump's, political "vision" for the middle east... it's freakin low to without what is a few cents from sick, hungry and dying people. That's just messed up. 

Anyone who can do that to another group of people... good luck having them giving a shite about "their own".


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Why the f@#k would you fund terrorism.  Oh thats right you're a lefty.




You should really look into the issue. 

It's very different from what you've been told... yes, even Faux News can get it all upside down.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> You should really look into the issue.
> 
> It's very different from what you've been told... yes, even Faux News can get it all upside down.



Na I know the issue enough. Proxy wars through bleeding hearts. The fact remains that donations end up with the plo.

I have friends in the area. Not really interested  in the bs from media.
If you looked into it, you would build a giant dome that encapsulated the middle east. And let em have their paradise.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Na I know the issue enough. Proxy wars through bleeding hearts. The fact remains that donations end up with the plo.
> 
> I have friends in the area. Not really interested  in the bs from media.
> If you looked into it, you would build a giant dome that encapsulated the middle east. And let em have their paradise.




No, it goes to UNWRA. A UN refugee agency set up specifically to put a few band aids to the Palestinians after Israel followed God's promised and take other people's land.

The fund that goes to the PLO goes through the Israeli. They gotta check if the money's safe first, followed by whether the PLO have been keeping their people in checked as they're supposed to.

Anyway, it's his America's money and it's not like his peasants aren't also sick, dying and starving or something. So every million in tax cuts to the billionaires and corporations will help with the trickling down.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> I think you mean Syria.



No I meant hamas in gaza. Iran was sending funds there as well. Until trump hit the sanctions.

UNWRA you better read up on them.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> No I meant hamas in gaza. Iran was sending funds there as well. Until trump hit the sanctions.
> 
> UNWRA you better read up on them.




I don't remember hearing Iran having anything to do with Gaza and Hamas. Maybe Qatar, a decade ago, send in some aids and building some housing... not Iran.

btw, nothing goes in or out of Gaza without Israel's permission. Nothing.

They even count the colorie, literally, how much food gets in. Control how much electricity the "Hamas" gets. 





UNWRA  
WE PROVIDE *ASSISTANCE *AND* PROTECTION* FOR
SOME* 5 MILLION* PALESTINE REFUGEES







So Japan, Belgium, Malaysia are helping fund terrorism now?

Or are they anti-Semite?


----------



## moXJO

The people of iran had a big protest over the funding by the regime recently.

Quick summary:
Hamas joined Syrian opposition to and Iran got shts and cut funding.

Egypt blew up hamas tunnels and hamas lost their money.
Hamas ran back to Iran for funding I think estimated at $260million.

Hamas buys weapons and makes new tunnels.

You also have egypt on the side causing headaches.

And by the way, you might want to check that 5 million number of refugees.

UNWRA is a part of the problem.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> btw, nothing goes in or out of Gaza without Israel's permission. Nothing.



Tunnels son
Coming from Vietnamese this made me laugh. 
I know a viet guy that tunneled under the road to the house opposite just to grow pot in that house. 

Its amazing whats underneath your feet.


----------



## Darc Knight

Gee, Bas handing out another frightful beating in the debating stakes. It's hard to watch.


----------



## wayneL

You're being played kids.


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> Gee, Bas handing out another frightful beating in the debating stakes. It's hard to watch.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> The people of iran had a big protest over the funding by the regime recently.
> 
> Quick summary:
> Hamas joined Syrian opposition to and Iran got shts and cut funding.
> 
> Egypt blew up hamas tunnels and hamas lost their money.
> Hamas ran back to Iran for funding I think estimated at $260million.
> 
> Hamas buys weapons and makes new tunnels.
> 
> You also have egypt on the side causing headaches.
> 
> And by the way, you might want to check that 5 million number of refugees.
> 
> UNWRA is a part of the problem.




The 5M refugees figure came from UNWRA. That's how many Palestinians lost their land, pushed into refugees camps... some half of them were born and grew up inside the camps too. 

Hamas are the wrong political party, i.e. terrorists, in Gaza. Gaza is completely cut off from everyone and everything as prisoners in a concentration camp ought to be. I think the stats is about 1% of them get to have permission from Israeli to "travel" outside of Gaza a year.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Tunnels son
> Coming from Vietnamese this made me laugh.
> I know a viet guy that tunneled under the road to the house opposite just to grow pot in that house.
> 
> Its amazing whats underneath your feet.




Terror Tunnels... yea, wouldn't we love it too if prisoners just don't do anything to protect themselves or to fight back. They all ought to go about their business above ground and accept the fact that the noblest army in the world will only take their bad apples out whenever it wants to. Maybe mow the lawn every couple years. 

Mowing lawns is hard work. Should make it as easy and as safe as possible. Even if the lawn are buildings with people in it.

Anyway, for argument's sake, let's assume that all Palestinians are terrorists and Trump hates terrorist more than he hate just about anyone that doesn't have money he can get his tiny hands on... there are international conventions where you do not strike at hospitals and the wounded. Cutting funding to dying people... what a draft dodging hero.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> The story was  the reflections of  a woman who worked with Donald Trump as a very senior exective for 10 years. She tells of a man who orders  his employees to do impossible or quite illegal or totally* stoopid  *tasks.  The employees have to learn to ignore many of the worst  ideas to save Don's neck. But they still get  slammed for not arbitarily sacking somone or  not putting the Braille dots in Trump Tower.
> 
> This is just another observation of what sort of leader he is.  And incidentally it talllies almost identically with the comments made by all the people who have written books on the Trump administration.
> 
> It seems from the comments of almost everyone who works with that an unrestrained Donald Trump
> is a clear and present danger as President.




So if it was agin the law not to have braille in the building why has no one complained and forced him to pull the building down ?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Anyway, for argument's sake, let's assume that all Palestinians are terrorists



Thats not the argument, shouldn't be the assumption and isn't the the truth. Many jews and Palestinians are fine with each other and are ready to make a compromise.

You have extremists both sides. You also have money pouring in from different sources that further muddy the waters.

Trump is already a proven asshat. Yeah I get it. I got it from day one of the thread. 
 He gets things done and isn't scared to drop idiotic deals. I'm glad he is torching a lot of it.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> He gets things done and isn't scared to drop idiotic deals. I'm glad he is torching a lot of it.




Yeh, idiotic things like western democratic alliances against the red hordes of Russia and China, and then cosying up to Russia.

Is he a Siberian candidate or what ?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> The 5M refugees figure came from UNWRA. That's how many Palestinians lost their land, pushed into refugees camps... some half of them were born and grew up inside the camps too.
> 
> Hamas are the wrong political party, i.e. terrorists, in Gaza. Gaza is completely cut off from everyone and everything as prisoners in a concentration camp ought to be. I think the stats is about 1% of them get to have permission from Israeli to "travel" outside of Gaza a year.



Its way more than half. That number was blown right out of proportion. A lot of those "refugees" are born and bred in other countries. This is what a big part of the arguments are about.

I'm sure its being pushed to be dismantled anyway.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Yeh, idiotic things like western democratic alliances against the red hordes of Russia and China, and then cosying up to Russia.
> 
> Is he a Siberian candidate or what ?



Trump has put pressure on china more than anyone else has.Obama dropped the ball for 8 fricken years with his "bend over and take it" approach. He also said certain jobs were lost to the US. That wasn't true, oh... unless you are a globalist.

 He sanctioned russia as well I thought.


I'd be more worried about all those Chinese "scientific centers" popping up in the antarctic then bleating about  trump stomping on pansies feelings.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I'd be more worried about all those Chinese "scientific centers" popping up in the antarctic




And what has Trump done about those if they are such a concern to you?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Its way more than half. That number was blown right out of proportion. A lot of those "refugees" are born and bred in other countries. This is what a big part of the arguments are about.
> 
> I'm sure its being pushed to be dismantled anyway.




They're born and bred in refugee camps outside of Israel. In places like Jordan and Lebanon. 
Within Israel's immediate concentration camps, they're warehoused in Gaza and all over the West Bank. 

But since they're Muslims, they never wanted peace so Trump is making a better deal.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Trump has put pressure on china more than anyone else has.Obama dropped the ball for 8 fricken years with his "bend over and take it" approach. He also said certain jobs were lost to the US. That wasn't true, oh... unless you are a globalist.
> 
> He sanctioned russia as well I thought.
> 
> 
> I'd be more worried about all those Chinese "scientific centers" popping up in the antarctic then bleating about  trump stomping on pansies feelings.




What pressure on China? Tariffs on their exports to the US?

Most of those exports are from American corporations anyway. Those who will feel it most will be the average American consumers, not the Chinese. 

Trump is simply raising a consumption tax on Americans, masking it as some sort of tough stance against China. 

You can raise 500% tax on most Chinese imports and they'd still be cheaper than if those same ones are made in the US. So if Trump is serious about creating American jobs from this tariff, his policies will either fail or will need to create an environment where the American workers are being paid at the same level as the typical Chinese slave labourer, with environmental destruction included in the bargain.

There's talk of another "Tax Reform" coming before the November mid-term. I guess a trillion and a half in the first year isn't enough.


As to China... Obama at least know that you cannot fight wars on all fronts. 

That's why he stopped starving the Iranians, let them sell their oil to Europe, open up trade with EU... make a friendlier Muslim country as the US pivot to Asia to contain China.

Now, Trump not only upset the EU by not permitting them to trade with Iran, he's forcing them to buy more expensive energy from approved friends only. 

That not only weaken the EU economically, it potentially increase the risk of social unrest; less cash available for NATO and other adventures they're forced to join...

Then pizzing off Iran who will fund terrorism all over the Middle East to keep their enemies busier and less focused on Tehran. 

i.e. he tie down the EU and a large chunk of American forces in the Middle East. 

And oh, starting a new frontier in space. Jesus. Aren't they already up there?

Meanwhile, China is free to roam. Literally building bridges and sea lanes wherever they like.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> They're born and bred in refugee camps outside of Israel. In places like Jordan and Lebanon.
> Within Israel's immediate concentration camps, they're warehoused in Gaza and all over the West Bank.
> 
> But since they're Muslims, they never wanted peace so Trump is making a better deal.



No they are not. And the kirk ammendment will hopefully clarify.
The argument causing the problem has been how many actually refugees are there.

UNRWA has been using a definition that includes descendants of refugees. The other U.N. bodies do not include descendants in their definition.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> What pressure on China? Tariffs on their exports to the US?
> 
> Most of those exports are from American corporations anyway. Those who will feel it most will be the average American consumers, not the Chinese.
> 
> Trump is simply raising a consumption tax on Americans, masking it as some sort of tough stance against China.
> 
> You can raise 500% tax on most Chinese imports and they'd still be cheaper than if those same ones are made in the US. So if Trump is serious about creating American jobs from this tariff, his policies will either fail or will need to create an environment where the American workers are being paid at the same level as the typical Chinese slave labourer, with environmental destruction included in the bargain.
> 
> There's talk of another "Tax Reform" coming before the November mid-term. I guess a trillion and a half in the first year isn't enough.
> 
> 
> As to China... Obama at least know that you cannot fight wars on all fronts.
> 
> That's why he stopped starving the Iranians, let them sell their oil to Europe, open up trade with EU... make a friendlier Muslim country as the US pivot to Asia to contain China.
> 
> Now, Trump not only upset the EU by not permitting them to trade with Iran, he's forcing them to buy more expensive energy from approved friends only.
> 
> That not only weaken the EU economically, it potentially increase the risk of social unrest; less cash available for NATO and other adventures they're forced to join...
> 
> Then pizzing off Iran who will fund terrorism all over the Middle East to keep their enemies busier and less focused on Tehran.
> 
> i.e. he tie down the EU and a large chunk of American forces in the Middle East.
> 
> And oh, starting a new frontier in space. Jesus. Aren't they already up there?
> 
> Meanwhile, China is free to roam. Literally building bridges and sea lanes wherever they like.



We are throwing in with india. Thats trumps strategy. Build up india. I'm sure you can literally search the strategy. Thats where the whole "indo pacific" thing came from.
The new shift is china and Russia are the challenges and attention is focused on them. 

Economic pressure
China is vulnerable. It would have been better earlier (like under obama). But better late then never.

Iran is hit with sanctions and has instability. Saudi Arabia will fan the flames.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> And what has Trump done about those if they are such a concern to you?



See above....
US can no longer do the heavy lifting I'm afraid. That doesn't mean there is no strategy.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> No they are not. And the kirk ammendment will hopefully clarify.
> The argument causing the problem has been how many actually refugees are there.
> 
> UNRWA has been using a definition that includes descendants of refugees. The other U.N. bodies do not include descendants in their definition.




Maybe the other UN agencies don't because they never have a situation where generations of refugees still remain refugees and living in refugee camps.

Have you seen that old interview with former NATO general Wesley Clark?

Of the countries in the Middle East/N.Africa he said he was told the Pentagon plan to take out... just about all of them have been helped. Next on the list is Iran.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Maybe the other UN agencies don't because they never have a situation where generations of refugees still remain refugees and living in refugee camps.
> 
> Have you seen that old interview with former NATO general Wesley Clark?
> 
> Of the countries in the Middle East/N.Africa he said he was told the Pentagon plan to take out... just about all of them have been helped. Next on the list is Iran.



Israel will never allow 5 million to settle. Thats a big part of the problem and the UNRWA knows it. They oversee big money a year as well,  hundreds of $millions.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Have you seen that old interview with former NATO general Wesley Clark?
> 
> Of the countries in the Middle East/N.Africa he said he was told the Pentagon plan to take out... just about all of them have been helped. Next on the list is Iran.



I don't think I have. I'll have to look it up sounds interesting.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Israel will never allow 5 million to settle. Thats a big part of the problem and the UNRWA knows it. They oversee big money a year as well,  hundreds of $millions.




Sure they wouldn't allow it. God would want the land to be kept pure.

But problem for Israel is... if they're not pushing for American taxpayers' cash to drip feed the Palestinians, do they seriously think the EU and countries like Japan will step in? For how long?

Those countries can just end the support, do more to raise international awareness, play the political theatre... then will force Israel to end its ambition for a purely Jewish state... aka Apartheid. 

If that doesn't happen and you've taken away all hope and nutrition from a population... they would just quietly go away or start more noise?


----------



## SirRumpole

Another Trump aide pleads guilty to fraud and money laundering.

The empire continues to crumble.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...-to-pleads-guilty-to-avoid-new-trial/10250054


----------



## Darc Knight

I didn't realise that the Investigators were also looking into the use of troll farms by Trump supporters on Social Media. We've all seen it here, but you notice it everywhere.
If the Russians are caught doing it, what can they do? I think at a local level, its moreso just Trump supporters who admire Trump and who try to emulate his lying and twisting of facts and words. But then, what can the Investigators do?


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> I didn't realise that the Investigators were also looking into the use of troll farms by Trump supporters on Social Media. We've all seen it here, but you notice it everywhere.
> If the Russians are caught doing it, what can they do? I think at a local level, its moreso just Trump supporters who admire Trump and who try to emulate his lying and twisting of facts and words. But then, what can the Investigators do?



Dark you have added nothing to any conversation but trolling. You have misrepresented any truth. Have provided maybe a third of any story you quote and stretched any facts.
A lot of you guys throw up articles with zero understanding of the charges or when they took place.

Puddle depth posting.


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> Dark you have added nothing to any conversation but trolling. You have misrepresented any truth. Have provided maybe a third of any story you quote and stretched any facts.
> A lot of you guys throw up articles with zero understanding of the charges or when they took place.
> 
> Puddle depth posting.




"There are two big cases in this category — the “Russian troll farm” indictment (alleging a social media propaganda effort aimed at influencing the election) and the email hacking indictment (alleging that 12 Russian intelligence officers were involved in hacking and leaking Democrats’ emails)."

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/9/14/17850596/manafort-cooperation-flip-mueller-trump-russia


----------



## Darc Knight

Mo, in the past you've admitted Trump is a bit of a scumbag. Do you really think he has the ethical substance to be believed and to be President, of anything?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Another Trump aide pleads guilty to fraud and money laundering.
> 
> The empire continues to crumble.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...-to-pleads-guilty-to-avoid-new-trial/10250054



Thats the same one as previous convinced for seven days or whatever.

He was being investigated prior to trump and has a long history. 

He was a lobbyist  and unregistered with the us govt when he joined trumps team roughly march 2016.
He then registered retroactively june 27.
Campaign Chairman from June to August 2016.
So if you are unregistered and talking to foreign powers, you are going to get pumped. But seems you can get around as shown by other runners.

So that was one of his main sticking points. Also where the russian collusion came from. Its possible that during march to june they broke the law while he wasn't registered.
He has a lot of tax and banking stuff as well from before trumps time.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> He has a lot of tax and banking stuff as well from before trumps time.




But Trump still accepted his help, without any vetting apparently.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Mo, in the past you've admitted Trump is a bit of a scumbag. Do you really think he has the ethical substance to be believed and to be President, of anything?



Heres what I  think:
Trumps a morally corrupt real estate agent. Guaranteed to have blurred the lines when it comes to the law.
His public persona is a lying a$shole of epic proportions.

I think the Russian collusion charges are bogus and will end up lynching him on a technicality if it happens. There will be no "Trump talked to x to obtain information on y". It might be possible manafort talked while he was unregistered and went to trump.


Trump is doing what needs to be done. You have strongman leaders in both China and Russia. Trump is the exact type of as$hole the US needs right now. Not only that, but he seems resilient under all the scrutiny and daily scandal. He still gets things done.

So right now I'm watching and trying to figure out where it will lead. I think democrats are lying scum on a level not seen before right now. And thats where the media fall down.

I think this "pop piece" article from tim allen (actor/comedian) sums up a lot about how those on the right *feel*.




> You know … it’s a very loaded question. I’ve met [Trump] at the charity event years ago, and that certainly doesn’t fit with the man who tweets. I’ve met a lot of people in private whose public persona is a bit off. My perception is “let’s see what he gets done.” Let’s stop banging on the pilot’s door and trying to pull the guy out of his seat while he’s still flying. You might not like how he’s flying the plane but let’s let him land it. Do I like him or agree with him? … I don’t know. Somebody got this NAFTA thing done. How did that happen? It’s like a slight of hand with this dude. There’s this smoke and smelly food but over here he just fixed a pothole. The theater of this is fascinating. He doesn’t do it very attractively but you don’t even realize the economy is doing better. Is it? There’s so much drama. Maybe it took this type of guy to get stuff done because it was so stuck in the mud. I’m just watching the theater of it and trying to keep my personal opinions out of it. What difference does it make whether I like him?




Has he broken a law that will see him kicked out...... possibly.

My feeling is that once dems win a house then it will basically be the end of Trump.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> But Trump still accepted his help, without any vetting apparently.



Politically he doesn't know the rules  (obviously). I think this is where a lot of the "idiot" comments come from. But you expect people to know there job.
I think manafort excused himself once he realized he was exposed  for the $12mill in foreign payments. 

The question is: did Trump know before or after about his history. He seems willing to pardon him and that looks suss.


----------



## Darc Knight

moXJO said:


> Heres what I  think:
> Trumps a morally corrupt real estate agent. Guaranteed to have blurred the lines when it comes to the law.
> His public persona is a lying a$shole of epic proportions.
> 
> I think the Russian collusion charges are bogus and will end up lynching him on a technicality if it happens. There will be no "Trump talked to x to obtain information on y". It might be possible manafort talked while he was unregistered and went to trump.
> 
> 
> Trump is doing what needs to be done. You have strongman leaders in both China and Russia. Trump is the exact type of as$hole the US needs right now. Not only that, but he seems resilient under all the scrutiny and daily scandal. He still gets things done.
> 
> So right now I'm watching and trying to figure out where it will lead. I think democrats are lying scum on a level not seen before right now. And thats where the media fall down.
> 
> I think this "pop piece" article from tim allen (actor/comedian) sums up a lot about how those on the right *feel*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has he broken a law that will see him kicked out...... possibly.
> 
> My feeling is that once dems win a house then it will basically be the end of Trump.




I think that's a very good Post Mo. Although I'm not sure how bad the Dems are though.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> I think that's a very good Post Mo. Although I'm not sure how bad the Dems are though.



Outside of the trump thread we are actually in sync with a lot of stuff
You know I love ya, I just like to pick.

I think people will come to realize just how bad the dems are. The cultish like media and social media technocrats will be exposed a lot more (see google). And real truth on the issues will be understood a lot more. I'm not saying gop are any better.

I thought technology might make truth in reporting universal and prolific. Instead we got lies from all sides. And the truth covered with seven layers of bs.

All I can hope is that people dig a bit deeper. Cause as$holes like me are not always around to point it out.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Politically he doesn't know the rules  (obviously). I think this is where a lot of the "idiot" comments come from. But you expect people to know there job.
> I think manafort excused himself once he realized he was exposed  for the $12mill in foreign payments.
> 
> The question is: did Trump know before or after about his history. He seems willing to pardon him and that looks suss.




Prosecutors generally don't make deals unless the target has something really good to offer and they that fully cooperate. 

I think its fair to assume Manaford has some reasonable dirt on Trump or possibly a ina-circle target closer to Trump that that will be another target to flip.

At that level of law  in the US its serious jungle rules "ruthless."


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I thought technology might make truth in reporting universal and prolific. Instead we got lies from all sides. And the truth covered with seven layers of bs.




Probably a reflection of the weak defamation laws in the US.


----------



## basilio

A story and analysis that poses a big question.


* Will Trump Be Meeting With His Counterpart — Or His Handler? *

A plausible theory of mind-boggling collusion.

By Jonathan Chait
Artwork by Barbara Kruger for New York








On June 14, 2016, the Washington _Post_ reported that Russian hackers had broken into the Democratic National Committee’s files and gained access to its research on Donald Trump. A political world already numbed by Trump’s astonishing rise barely took notice. News reports quoted experts who suggested the Russians merely wanted more information about Trump to inform their foreign-policy dealings. By that point, Russia was already broadcasting its strong preference for Trump through the media. Yet when news of the hacking broke, nobody raised the faintest suspicions that Russia wished to alter the outcome of the election, let alone that Trump or anybody connected with him might have been in cahoots with a foreign power. It was a third-rate cyberburglary. Nothing to see here.

The unfolding of the Russia scandal has been like walking into a dark cavern. Every step reveals that the cave runs deeper than we thought, and after each one, as we wonder how far it goes, our imaginations are circumscribed by the steps we have already taken. The cavern might go just a little farther, we presume, but probably not _much_ farther. And since trying to discern the size and shape of the scandal is an exercise in uncertainty, we focus our attention on the most likely outcome, which is that the story goes a little deeper than what we have already discovered. Say, that Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort told their candidate about the meeting they held at Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer after they were promised dirt on Hillary Clinton; and that Trump and Kushner have some shady Russian investments; and that some of Trump’s advisers made some promises about lifting sanctions.

But what if that’s wrong? What if we’re still standing closer to the mouth of the cave than the end?

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/trump-putin-russia-collusion.html


----------



## sptrawler

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...eet-hits-new-record/10289386?section=business

Economic figures showed that new claims for unemployment benefits fell to the lowest in nearly 50 years.

The US has seen record breaking jobs growth with an unemployment rate of 3.9 per cent.

The data adds to expectations that the US central bank, the Federal Reserve, will raise benchmark interest rates next week to 2 to 2.25 per cent.
He may be an idiot, he may be unattractive, he may be a narcissist, but he is doing something right.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...eet-hits-new-record/10289386?section=business
> 
> Economic figures showed that new claims for unemployment benefits fell to the lowest in nearly 50 years.
> 
> The US has seen record breaking jobs growth with an unemployment rate of 3.9 per cent.
> 
> The data adds to expectations that the US central bank, the Federal Reserve, will raise benchmark interest rates next week to 2 to 2.25 per cent.
> He may be an idiot, he may be unattractive, he may be a narcissist, but he is doing something right.




Fed raising rates have nothing to do with Trump though. 

I think that if it's up to him, he'd rather it be low. It'll do wonder for the struggling investors portfolio.

The books and interviews I saw said that what ultimately lead to the GFC was Alan Greenspan's refusal to "remove the punch bowl" of low interest rate. Was too slow to raise it and that lead to the credit binge, property boom etc., resulting in the GFC.

Don't know much about the US property market, but seem they're trying to not let go full blown Australia.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...eet-hits-new-record/10289386?section=business
> 
> Economic figures showed that new claims for unemployment benefits fell to the lowest in nearly 50 years.
> 
> The US has seen record breaking jobs growth with an unemployment rate of 3.9 per cent.
> 
> The data adds to expectations that the US central bank, the Federal Reserve, will raise benchmark interest rates next week to 2 to 2.25 per cent.
> He may be an idiot, he may be unattractive, he may be a narcissist, but he is doing something right.





I think those who are convinced the USA is doing badly should show their stripes and divest themselves of any investments in US companies ...... for moral, ethical and on the side of right reasons.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Fed raising rates have nothing to do with Trump though.




I think you will find it does, as prices of imported goods rise and unemployment falls, inflation will rise. The Fed will want to apply a brake to slow the rate of growth, to stop the economy running away again.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how-the-fed-raises-interest-rates-2017-12?r=US&IR=T


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> I think those who are convinced the USA is doing badly should show their stripes and divest themselves of any investments in US companies ...... for moral, ethical and on the side of right reasons.




You just can't look at the "headline" unemployment rate and say things are fine, because "employed" is defined as doing any work in the last month. The figures hide those who are in the "gig economy" and don't get enough hours to make ends meet.

https://www.worldatwork.org/workspan/articles/underemployment-is-a-big-problem-in-the-united-states


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> You just can't look at the "headline" unemployment rate and say things are fine, because "employed" is defined as doing any work in the last month. The figures hide those who are in the "gig economy" and *don't get enough hours to make ends meet.*
> 
> https://www.worldatwork.org/workspan/articles/underemployment-is-a-big-problem-in-the-united-states




But if you look at the GDP PPP the USA is second to China and India a distant third and Australia nineteenth. Anyone who's been to China and India knows there is a yawning gap between China/India and Oz/USA in the poverty/liveability/safetynet stakes .....


----------



## Junior

I think the majority out there agree the US economy is performing strongly and growing at present.  The questions are:  
* How much of this growth is attributable to Trump policies and Trump decision-making?  The economy was performing strongly well before Trump took the reigns.
* Is this growth sustainable?  Looking at super low interest rates, and ever-expanding govn't debt and budget deficits, it seems highly unlikely.  You can't slash taxes every year.


----------



## Darc Knight

Where's Mo? Sorry Bas, I lubs you too, but I miss Mo   (as long as it's not my posts he's "picking"   )


----------



## Toyota Lexcen

Junior said:


> I think the majority out there agree the US economy is performing strongly and growing at present.  The questions are:
> * How much of this growth is attributable to Trump policies and Trump decision-making?  The economy was performing strongly well before Trump took the reigns.
> * Is this growth sustainable?  Looking at super low interest rates, and ever-expanding govn't debt and budget deficits, it seems highly unlikely.  You can't slash taxes every year.




Good points Junior.

I was in US in April for a few weeks and the place is booming.

Especially San Fran, they are calling it a gold rush at street level (tour operators). Black America are shopping, have jobs, real confidence.

You have Amazon which is building a village in Seattle. San Fran has the likes of Apple, Uber, Twitter etc. The “Tech” companies to going to be huge.

Amazon has a chain of supermarkets called Whole Food Markets where probably 30-40% of floor space is meals, pizza, curries, salad bars, roasts, coffee, beer.

Trump doing all this? Who knows


----------



## Tisme




----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> I think you will find it does, as prices of imported goods rise and unemployment falls, inflation will rise. The Fed will want to apply a brake to slow the rate of growth, to stop the economy running away again.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how-the-fed-raises-interest-rates-2017-12?r=US&IR=T




yea alright, if you put it that way, what he signed does have affect interest rate.


----------



## luutzu

Toyota Lexcen said:


> Good points Junior.
> 
> I was in US in April for a few weeks and the place is booming.
> 
> Especially San Fran, they are calling it a gold rush at street level (tour operators). Black America are shopping, have jobs, real confidence.
> 
> You have Amazon which is building a village in Seattle. San Fran has the likes of Apple, Uber, Twitter etc. The “Tech” companies to going to be huge.
> 
> Amazon has a chain of supermarkets called Whole Food Markets where probably 30-40% of floor space is meals, pizza, curries, salad bars, roasts, coffee, beer.
> 
> Trump doing all this? Who knows




Yea, I heard their gated communities and gentrified places are very nice places to hang around.


----------



## Junior

Anyone with basic experience following stock markets knows that whoever the President/leader/prime minister of the day is has little bearing on where the Index is at.  

Again, sheer arrogance and outright rubbish from trump bragging that he is somehow responsible for record highs in US markets. Market was consistently hitting record highs under Obama before trump came into office. 

Market is being driven higher by Tech giants who derive much of their growth outside of the US anyway.


----------



## luutzu

Junior said:


> Anyone with basic experience following stock markets knows that whoever the President/leader/prime minister of the day is has little bearing on where the Index is at.
> 
> Again, sheer arrogance and outright rubbish from trump bragging that he is somehow responsible for record highs in US markets. Market was consistently hitting record highs under Obama before trump came into office.
> 
> Market is being driven higher by Tech giants who derive much of their growth outside of the US anyway.




You're right to say that now, but wait 'til the $1.5Trillion tax cuts kick in. Then the "tax reform" 2.0 being proposed by November this year. 

They're going to do share buybacks, merger and acquisition, speculate like they got a few trillion to play with.


----------



## sptrawler

Junior said:


> Anyone with basic experience following stock markets knows that whoever the President/leader/prime minister of the day is has little bearing on where the Index is at.
> 
> Again, sheer arrogance and outright rubbish from trump bragging that he is somehow responsible for record highs in US markets. Market was consistently hitting record highs under Obama before trump came into office.
> 
> Market is being driven higher by Tech giants who derive much of their growth outside of the US anyway.



Funnily enough though Junior, when Trump was running for office, the financial gurus were saying there would be a stock market crash if he was elected.


----------



## Tisme

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough though Junior, when Trump was running for office, the financial gurus were saying there would be a stock market crash if he was elected.




He has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow. Everyone knows it, but the small mobs of haters who can't retreat back from their unsubstantiated words just use drama to mask the truth.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2481/stock-market-performance-by-president


----------



## Darc Knight

Some website analyzes Politicians B.S. level. Here's Trump's:

*The PolitiFact scorecard*

True27 (4%)
Mostly True69 (11%)
Half True88 (15%)
Mostly False133 (22%)
False199 (33%)
Pants on Fire85 (14%)
69% of Trump's statements are mostly false, false, or down right lies

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/


----------



## bellenuit

Tisme said:


> He has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow. Everyone knows it, but the small mobs of haters who can't retreat back from their unsubstantiated words just use drama to mask the truth.
> 
> https://www.macrotrends.net/2481/stock-market-performance-by-president




Well the chart you posted certainly doesn't show that. In the same period that Trump was in office (the thick blue line), the chart is showing the Dow increased 34.8% under Obama and 34.6% under Trump. So when you say everyone knows that, I presume you mean Trump supporters know that even if the facts tell otherwise.

But even if one were to take the chart you posted and dig a bit deeper, you see that Obama is severely disadvantaged during that same length of time in office as he took over a Dow that was falling and had to turn it around, whereas when Trump took over the Dow was already rising. The first 6 months or so of Obama's first term in office was needed to turn the Down around and get it back to where it was when he took over. The following chart shows that clearly.

It isn't so much the Trump haters not acknowledging the Dow movement under Trump, but the Trump apologists claiming what Trump did is exceptional, when it clearly isn't and then treating the turnaround and long steady climb under Obama as for nought. Remember how Trump claimed all the good economic statistics under Obama were false and inflated by the respective government department, but was quick to claim the veracity of the same data when released after he entered office


----------



## Darc Knight

bellenuit said:


> . So when you say everyone knows that, I presume you mean Trump supporters know that even if the facts tell otherwise.
> 
> ]




I was reading a communication expert's analysis of Trump's communication skills. She was saying Trump uses the phrase "everybody knows this" (or similar) a lot. She said by "everybody knows this" Trump is generally referring to himself.

She also commended Trump's communication clarity, saying he can communicate with four year olds. Four year olds lol. Explains Trump's supporter base


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough though Junior, when Trump was running for office, the financial gurus were saying there would be a stock market crash if he was elected.




Thing is, the market will crash because Trump [and Obama] got elected.

Their policies fuel the wrong kind of growth. It's what Marx would call "fictitious capital". i.e. monopoly money.

The real economy is circling the tube. The financial economy rises like water being pumped into a tank... ready to flush everything.

Not saying all corporations out there are crap. Most of them are... and they're way over priced to boot.

Just look at what the market gain consists of. In the US it's the FAANG... Facebook, Apple, google's Alphabet, Amazon, Netflix. 

Beside the gov't subsidised data centre and cloud services... that and military/security i.e. spying contract... what are Facebook, google and Amazon's business really? Just information gathering for gov't that's making them any money.

The retailing and marketing, the ads placement. Meh... Most of the ads are just big friends giving money to those who control information.

Netflix is, from news I read a few months ago, is still losing money. 

Apple just flogs overpriced consumer products. 

And these are the high tech market leaders. So much for growing the economy.

Similarly in Australia... The top 20 companies represents som 75% of the All Ords? 

Most of them are the big banks and insurers.... that's not going to end well. 



Then there's the real economy... stagnant wages; debt to their eyeballs.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> Well the chart you posted certainly doesn't show that. In the same period that Trump was in office (the thick blue line), the chart is showing the Dow increased 34.8% under Obama and 34.6% under Trump. So when you say everyone knows that, I presume you mean Trump supporters know that even if the facts tell otherwise.
> 
> But even if one were to take the chart you posted and dig a bit deeper, you see that Obama is severely disadvantaged during that same length of time in office as he took over a Dow that was falling and had to turn it around, whereas when Trump took over the Dow was already rising. The first 6 months or so of Obama's first term in office was needed to turn the Down around and get it back to where it was when he took over. The following chart shows that clearly.
> 
> It isn't so much the Trump haters not acknowledging the Dow movement under Trump, but the Trump apologists claiming what Trump did is exceptional, when it clearly isn't and then treating the turnaround and long steady climb under Obama as for nought. Remember how Trump claimed all the good economic statistics under Obama were false and inflated by the respective government department, but was quick to claim the veracity of the same data when released after he entered office
> 
> View attachment 89427




Yeah no, that's just trying to make a model fit a premeditated argument, you're not reading the charts correctly. Obama came off a low base that had to correct itself upwards, at worst with with a prolonged dead cat bounce. All the indicators are solid, e.g. a 30% rise in the five weeks around last xmas, and there is not the pall of potential doom on the horizon that dogged Obama.

Why the preoccupation of trying to push everything up against the fence with Trump at the wicket? My bet is that your political party of choice in Oz gets all the plaudits from the hard work of the enemy, but none of the trash?


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> I was reading a communication expert's analysis of Trump's communication skills. She was saying Trump uses the phrase "everybody knows this" (or similar) a lot. She said by "everybody knows this" Trump is generally referring to himself.
> 
> She also commended Trump's communication clarity, saying he can communicate with four year olds. Four year olds lol. Explains Trump's supporter base




Nice try, but you need to hone your third person skills DK. By your own admission if a four year old can understand Trump what does that say about you guys?

Stand aside worthy adversary !


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> Well the chart you posted certainly doesn't show that. In the same period that Trump was in office (the thick blue line), the chart is showing the Dow increased 34.8% under Obama and 34.6% under Trump. So when you say everyone knows that, I presume you mean Trump supporters know that even if the facts tell otherwise.
> 
> View attachment 89427




Can we also add $1.5 trillion Trump has thrown at business that the US punters are going to have to pay for some time? 

Trump is a genus.......and still a criminal.


----------



## bellenuit

Tisme said:


> Yeah no, that's just trying to make a model fit a premeditated argument, you're not reading the charts correctly.




Well Yes. I am reading the charts correctly. Move your cursor over the end of the blue line that represents Trump's time in office (the 20 month mark) and read the figures shown. Obama 34.8 and Trump 34.6

This is *YOUR* chart that you used to falsely claim Trump _has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow_. Or should I be following Trump's dictum. _Don't believe what you see. Don't believe what you hear._



> Obama came off a low base that had to correct itself upwards, at worst with with a prolonged dead cat bounce. All the indicators are solid, e.g. a 30% rise in the five weeks around last xmas, and there is not the pall of potential doom on the horizon that dogged Obama.
> 
> Why the preoccupation of trying to push everything up against the fence with Trump at the wicket? My bet is that your political party of choice in Oz gets all the plaudits from the hard work of the enemy, but none of the trash?




This is simply nonsense. My political opinions have not come into this. I just simply showed you the figures from the chart *you posted* and it showed your contention to be wrong. 

If you are saying I am reading the chart incorrectly, please indicate from the chart:

% increase in Dow during the 20 month period that Trump was in office 
% increase in Dow during the first 20 months Obama was in office.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> Well Yes. I am reading the charts correctly. Move your cursor over the end of the blue line that represents Trump's time in office (the 20 month mark) and read the figures shown. Obama 34.8 and Trump 34.6
> 
> This is *YOUR* chart that you used to falsely claim Trump _has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow_. Or should I be following Trump's dictum. _Don't believe what you see. Don't believe what you hear._
> 
> 
> 
> This is simply nonsense. My political opinions have not come into this. I just simply showed you the figures from the chart *you posted* and it showed your contention to be wrong.
> 
> If you are saying I am reading the chart incorrectly, please indicate from the chart:
> 
> % increase in Dow during the 20 month period that Trump was in office
> % increase in Dow during the first 20 months Obama was in office.




So by your own admission Trump is at least as good as Obama?  (34.6 vs 34.8?)


----------



## bellenuit

Tisme said:


> So by your own admission Trump is at least as good as Obama?  (34.6 vs 34.8?)




Its your statement that is in question. _He has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow_. You were clearly wrong on that based on the chart you posted.


----------



## Tisme

bellenuit said:


> Its your statement that is in question. _He has a better record than Obama when it comes to Dow_. You were clearly wrong on that based on the chart you posted.




No I stick to my assessment as previously stated. You can't deny the winner and record setting of a track and field race based on the past performance of another race. This isn't even a tag team, because the previous runner is bad mouthing and trying to sabotage the current runner.

~26,700 points is new territory and it was achieved on the back of "expert" predictions Trump would cause slump from the inherited ~19,800 from a predecessor who caused the slump to ~7,950 by being elected heir apparent on a socialist card, but that slump is allocated to Bush instead (likewise Trump gets allocated the gains under his watch, not Obama's).


----------



## Tisme

Could make a movie out of this and/or write a book and also make a quid or two.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/frien...naugh-4th-person-to-rebut-claims_2668653.html


----------



## Junior

Performance of the DOW whilst in office is a near irrelevant measure, if trying to assess the success of a Government.

It doesn't take a great leader to approve a massive increase in Govn't spending (using borrowed money), or the commencement of a new QE program, or slashing company tax rates.  These things can all buoy markets, but do not indicate quality leadership.

Furthermore there are many, many factors outside the Governments control which move markets.  Interest rates and events happening outside the US, for example.  A large proportion of DOW listed companies derive much of their profits outside of the US, in any case.


----------



## Tisme

Junior said:


> Performance of the DOW whilst in office is a near irrelevant measure, if trying to assess the success of a Government.
> 
> It doesn't take a great leader to approve a massive increase in Govn't spending (using borrowed money), or the commencement of a new QE program, or slashing company tax rates.  These things can all buoy markets, but do not indicate quality leadership.
> 
> Furthermore there are many, many factors outside the Governments control which move markets.  Interest rates and events happening outside the US, for example.  A large proportion of DOW listed companies derive much of their profits outside of the US, in any case.




So Obama and his $1.5 trillion deficit followed by 3 years of $1 trillion doesn't figure? Pump priming is ok for democrats but not republicans?


----------



## IFocus

Tisme said:


> So Obama and his $1.5 trillion deficit followed by 3 years of $1 trillion doesn't figure? Pump priming is ok for democrats but not republicans?




I think its fair to say markets greeted Trump warmly.

Trump has removed environment protections, reduced red tape (you know regs that stop rich people stealing) attacked working associations rights and of course thrown $1.5 trill at business so market listed company executives can do buy backs drive up stock prices and give themselves well earned bonus's. 

Absolute win win unless you are working at three jobs just to eat at rates which haven't changed in 20/30 years  and just happen to be what 40% or more of the population.


----------



## sptrawler

Junior said:


> Performance of the DOW whilst in office is a near irrelevant measure, if trying to assess the success of a Government.
> 
> It doesn't take a great leader to approve a massive increase in Govn't spending (using borrowed money), or the commencement of a new QE program, or slashing company tax rates.  These things can all buoy markets, but do not indicate quality leadership.



Apparently it indicates quality leadership, if it is done in Australia.
Hawke/Keating, slashed company tax rates, floated the dollar which reduced its value 50% and reduced real wages with the accord. Now they are legends, go figure, Trump does similar and is painted as a villain.


----------



## Tisme

IFocus said:


> I think its fair to say markets greeted Trump warmly.
> 
> Trump has removed environment protections, reduced red tape (you know regs that stop rich people stealing) attacked working associations rights and of course thrown $1.5 trill at business so market listed company executives can do buy backs drive up stock prices and give themselves well earned bonus's.
> 
> Absolute win win unless you are working at three jobs just to eat at rates which haven't changed in 20/30 years  and just happen to be what 40% or more of the population.





You've been to the USA? The working class there work anyway and even in Manhattan many look like they are shy of a quid.


----------



## luutzu

IFocus said:


> I think its fair to say markets greeted Trump warmly.
> 
> Trump has removed environment protections, reduced red tape (you know regs that stop rich people stealing) attacked working associations rights and of course thrown $1.5 trill at business so market listed company executives can do buy backs drive up stock prices and give themselves well earned bonus's.
> 
> Absolute win win unless you are working at three jobs just to eat at rates which haven't changed in 20/30 years  and just happen to be what 40% or more of the population.




Some survey last year found that about 50% of Americans cannot afford a $500 emergency. The next 15% can't afford $1000 emergency.

With no universal healthcare; contract jobs paying per hour worked... an illness, injury, or a hurricane flooding the area. Talk about living on the brink.

With Trump further cutting healthcare assistance and food program to kids and senior in poverty... wtf?

And thing is, Trump is branding himself as some sort of White race hero but according to this American reverend, most of the poor in any given poverty stricken area are White. 

So Trump and his fascists are just using race as a cover to screw everyone who aren't already rich. 

As to the stock market... the stats show something like the top 0.1% own about 50%, the top 10% own about 90%. 

But I guess that as long as the mathematical average looks good, the average American is doing alright. 'cause in real life, just like in maths, everybody share their wealth until it goes average.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Some survey last year found that about 50% of Americans cannot afford a $500 emergency. The next 15% can't afford $1000 emergency.
> 
> With no universal healthcare; contract jobs paying per hour worked... an illness, injury, or a hurricane flooding the area. Talk about living on the brink.
> 
> With Trump further cutting healthcare assistance and food program to kids and senior in poverty... wtf?
> 
> And thing is, Trump is branding himself as some sort of White race hero but according to this American reverend, most of the poor in any given poverty stricken area are White.
> 
> So Trump and his fascists are just using race as a cover to screw everyone who aren't already rich.
> 
> As to the stock market... the stats show something like the top 0.1% own about 50%, the top 10% own about 90%.
> 
> But I guess that as long as the mathematical average looks good, the average American is doing alright. 'cause in real life, just like in maths, everybody share their wealth until it goes average.




I guess that's why he is telling NATO Countries and China, to start pulling their weight, and stop bludging on the U.S.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> I guess that's why he is telling NATO Countries and China, to start pulling their weight, and stop bludging on the U.S.




That's not why. 

He's the one that's making it all that worst on his own (poor) people.

Assuming for a second that Trump's policies on NATO saves money. Did he passed the savings on to poor Americans? No.

In his first year, Trump raised the official military budget by some $70B. In this second year, raised it another $40B+ to some $720B a year. And if all military-related expenses, such as Veteran Affairs, the dept. of Energy nuke maintenance etc... it's about $1Trillion a year.

Then there's the tax cuts. $1.5Trillion top line. Recently floating the redefinition of "capital gain"... taking into account inflation... that's estimated to cost the Treasury about $500B over a decade. There's another planned "tax reform" by this November.

If I remember right, he also repealed the "Death Tax". So now, all the trust fund kids whose parents estate divvied up among the lucky sperms are no longer taxable. It used to only taxed when the inheritance, after all expenses, is some $8M each sibling. But taxing it would "impede competition" and incentives to work or some bs.

Anyway, so $2Trillion in tax cuts he just gave to the top 1%.

Is he as equally generous towards the other 90%?

Fark no.

Cutting funding to public schools. Most schools in poorer cities now cannot have class when it's too cold, or too hot. Their A/C and heating system no longer work. There's mould everywhere, literally lead-poisoned tap water... teachers at public schools literally have to pack lunch for some of their students because they know the kids don't get enough to eat at home.

But Trump cut any subsidy or lunch programme to them. 

I mean, who's going to pay for that right? Where's the money coming from? He just gave $2T away, bloated the military budget... so belts got to be tightened.

-----------

With NATO... 

Trump's forcing the same shite on European he's forcing on his own people. Lucky the EU just quietly nod and pretend to agree with what their master tells them, else they'll have to double spending on their military. 

Where will the money come from? It'll have to be cut from other (social, welfare) services. Who will suffer?

And why the increased on NATO? Russia?

Compare the military spending, GDP of Russia with those of Europe. It's like day and night. 

---

China...

if the US doesn't want a trade deficit, then stop buying Chinese made crap. Most of those are owned or benefiting major American corporations anyway. i.e. Wal-Mart, Apple, Amazon etc. 

So the trade war is just another attempt to tax the majority of American consumers. i.e. the poor and working class Americans who buy Chinese-made stuff. Rich ones won't be caught dead wearing anything from the Wal-Marts. 

Trump is just talking bs. It is also an attempt to get the Chinese to open up their financial institution. i.e. he's taking care of Wall St... and just like other presidents... the majority of the population are paying the price.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> That's not why.
> 
> He's the one that's making it all that worst on his own (poor) people.
> 
> Assuming for a second that Trump's policies on NATO saves money. Did he passed the savings on to poor Americans? No.
> 
> In his first year, Trump raised the official military budget by some $70B. In this second year, raised it another $40B+ to some $720B a year. And if all military-related expenses, such as Veteran Affairs, the dept. of Energy nuke maintenance etc... it's about $1Trillion a year.
> 
> Then there's the tax cuts. $1.5Trillion top line. Recently floating the redefinition of "capital gain"... taking into account inflation... that's estimated to cost the Treasury about $500B over a decade. There's another planned "tax reform" by this November.
> 
> If I remember right, he also repealed the "Death Tax". So now, all the trust fund kids whose parents estate divvied up among the lucky sperms are no longer taxable. It used to only taxed when the inheritance, after all expenses, is some $8M each sibling. But taxing it would "impede competition" and incentives to work or some bs.
> 
> Anyway, so $2Trillion in tax cuts he just gave to the top 1%.
> 
> Is he as equally generous towards the other 90%?
> 
> Fark no.
> 
> Cutting funding to public schools. Most schools in poorer cities now cannot have class when it's too cold, or too hot. Their A/C and heating system no longer work. There's mould everywhere, literally lead-poisoned tap water... teachers at public schools literally have to pack lunch for some of their students because they know the kids don't get enough to eat at home.
> 
> But Trump cut any subsidy or lunch programme to them.
> 
> I mean, who's going to pay for that right? Where's the money coming from? He just gave $2T away, bloated the military budget... so belts got to be tightened.
> 
> -----------
> 
> With NATO...
> 
> Trump's forcing the same shite on European he's forcing on his own people. Lucky the EU just quietly nod and pretend to agree with what their master tells them, else they'll have to double spending on their military.
> 
> Where will the money come from? It'll have to be cut from other (social, welfare) services. Who will suffer?
> 
> And why the increased on NATO? Russia?
> 
> Compare the military spending, GDP of Russia with those of Europe. It's like day and night.
> 
> ---
> 
> China...
> 
> if the US doesn't want a trade deficit, then stop buying Chinese made crap. Most of those are owned or benefiting major American corporations anyway. i.e. Wal-Mart, Apple, Amazon etc.
> 
> So the trade war is just another attempt to tax the majority of American consumers. i.e. the poor and working class Americans who buy Chinese-made stuff. Rich ones won't be caught dead wearing anything from the Wal-Marts.
> 
> Trump is just talking bs. It is also an attempt to get the Chinese to open up their financial institution. i.e. he's taking care of Wall St... and just like other presidents... the majority of the population are paying the price.




Obviously you hate him with a passion, I really don't care much one way or another, just see that he seems to be moving things on from the stagnation.
It won't won't matter on a global scale, what I think, maybe you have better contacts.
Time will tell how it plays out.
Oh by the way, does India's space programme help the poor?


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Obviously you hate him with a passion, I really don't care much one way or another, just see that he seems to be moving things on from the stagnation.
> It won't won't matter on a global scale, what I think, maybe you have better contacts.
> Time will tell how it plays out.
> Oh by the way, does India's space programme help the poor?




I don't hate Trump. I just find him to be a complete azzwipe. 

Obama moved things along fine. Trump just kicked it into high gear. Only difference is, just for fun, Trump takes all the crumbs and pills from the kids and the sick to show them he really hate poor people.

I don't know anything about India or their space programme.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> I don't hate Trump. I just find him to be a complete azzwipe.
> 
> Obama moved things along fine. Trump just kicked it into high gear. Only difference is, just for fun, Trump takes all the crumbs and pills from the kids and the sick to show them he really hate poor people.



So has Obama gone back to what he did before he became President, or has he joined the ex President junket?
I don't think Trump will have to do anything different, he was a mega rich azzwipe before he took on all this crap, and he will probably go back to a mega rich azzwipe after.
What will define his Presidency, will be how people report on him after he has left, not while he is in.
Which is the opposite of Obama, he was a walking banner of the U.S of A, showing the World how it can be done.
I'm just amazed how much attention the U.S politics get, it probably attracts more attention than Australian politics, yet we live here. Well some do.
I guess I see it a bit like W.A politics, Barnett was blown to bits and was creamed. Now a lot of the things he did are being applauded, yet they were derided when he implemented them, that is twelve months later.


----------



## Darc Knight

luutzu said:


> That's not why.
> 
> He's the one that's making it all that worst on his own (poor) people.
> 
> Assuming for a second that Trump's policies on NATO saves money. Did he passed the savings on to poor Americans? No.
> 
> In his first year, Trump raised the official military budget by some $70B. In this second year, raised it another $40B+ to some $720B a year. And if all military-related expenses, such as Veteran Affairs, the dept. of Energy nuke maintenance etc... it's about $1Trillion a year.
> 
> Then there's the tax cuts. $1.5Trillion top line. Recently floating the redefinition of "capital gain"... taking into account inflation... that's estimated to cost the Treasury about $500B over a decade. There's another planned "tax reform" by this November.
> 
> If I remember right, he also repealed the "Death Tax". So now, all the trust fund kids whose parents estate divvied up among the lucky sperms are no longer taxable. It used to only taxed when the inheritance, after all expenses, is some $8M each sibling. But taxing it would "impede competition" and incentives to work or some bs.
> 
> Anyway, so $2Trillion in tax cuts he just gave to the top 1%.
> 
> Is he as equally generous towards the other 90%?
> 
> Fark no.
> 
> Cutting funding to public schools. Most schools in poorer cities now cannot have class when it's too cold, or too hot. Their A/C and heating system no longer work. There's mould everywhere, literally lead-poisoned tap water... teachers at public schools literally have to pack lunch for some of their students because they know the kids don't get enough to eat at home.
> 
> But Trump cut any subsidy or lunch programme to them.
> 
> I mean, who's going to pay for that right? Where's the money coming from? He just gave $2T away, bloated the military budget... so belts got to be tightened.
> 
> -----------
> 
> With NATO...
> 
> Trump's forcing the same shite on European he's forcing on his own people. Lucky the EU just quietly nod and pretend to agree with what their master tells them, else they'll have to double spending on their military.
> 
> Where will the money come from? It'll have to be cut from other (social, welfare) services. Who will suffer?
> 
> And why the increased on NATO? Russia?
> 
> Compare the military spending, GDP of Russia with those of Europe. It's like day and night.
> 
> ---
> 
> China...
> 
> if the US doesn't want a trade deficit, then stop buying Chinese made crap. Most of those are owned or benefiting major American corporations anyway. i.e. Wal-Mart, Apple, Amazon etc.
> 
> So the trade war is just another attempt to tax the majority of American consumers. i.e. the poor and working class Americans who buy Chinese-made stuff. Rich ones won't be caught dead wearing anything from the Wal-Marts.
> 
> Trump is just talking bs. It is also an attempt to get the Chinese to open up their financial institution. i.e. he's taking care of Wall St... and just like other presidents... the majority of the population are paying the price.




That's such an inditement. We don't hear about that sort of thing here. You worry about that sort of thing happening everytime a Republican is elected. Go to hell Trump.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> So has Obama gone back to what he did before he became President, or has he joined the ex President junket?
> I don't think Trump will have to do anything different, he was a mega rich azzwipe before he took on all this crap, and he will probably go back to a mega rich azzwipe after.
> What will define his Presidency, will be how people report on him after he has left, not while he is in.
> Which is the opposite of Obama, he was a walking banner of the U.S of A, showing the World how it can be done.
> I'm just amazed how much attention the U.S politics get, it probably attracts more attention than Australian politics, yet we live here. Well some do.
> I guess I see it a bit like W.A politics, Barnett was blown to bits and was creamed. Now a lot of the things he did are being applauded, yet they were derided when he implemented them, that is twelve months later.




Obama is busy putting the final touches on a masterplan to his $500M "presidential centre".

Why take the trouble, and the political risk, of doing actual good when you can get donations from the friends you've helped and air-brushed your version of history. Am I right?

That and jetting around his rich pals' private islands and ski resorts. And still he manages a few pro-bono speeches where he lecture about how business is great, but can be a bit cruel, but it's great [stupid big grin] and we should all love each other.  

Trump weren't rich. I mean, by our standard he was rich, but no richer than any douche can be rich if the equivalent of a couple billions were inherited. 

I thought Trump's "running for president" in 2016 was just a publicity gimmick to promote his The Apprentice show. Remember the $50 per fan wearing Trump t-shirts and banners at Trump Tower on the day he announced he's running?

According to Michael More, it's actually worst than that. 

Trump was being paid lower than another female TV star. Seems NBC or CBS weren't too happy with his show's ratings so they don't pay him as much as they used to.

So the Donald decided to take the presidential season as an opportunity to show those media executives how much the plebs still love him. By getting on TV and doing political stuff around the country to get noticed again.

Hence the dozen or two paid actors cheering him on as he announced his run. 

Turns out his racist rant put the media executives off so they decided to cancel his show altogether.

But damn it, the Donald already booked a couple more venues. What to do? Can't waste it right?

So he turn up to them, give more stupid, racist rants... and it resonnated with the struggling, mostly White, Americans who have had it with the establishment. 

Remember watching a few exclusive report on how the Trump campaign have practically zero political organisation beside booking a few venues? No website to raise money, no political operatives etc. etc.?

That's because he didn't plan on it ever getting off the ground. 

----------


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Obama is busy putting the final touches on a masterplan to his $500M "presidential centre".
> 
> Why take the trouble, and the political risk, of doing actual good when you can get donations from the friends you've helped and air-brushed your version of history. Am I right?
> 
> That and jetting around his rich pals' private islands and ski resorts. And still he manages a few pro-bono speeches where he lecture about how business is great, but can be a bit cruel, but it's great [stupid big grin] and we should all love each other.
> 
> Trump weren't rich. I mean, by our standard he was rich, but no richer than any douche can be rich if the equivalent of a couple billions were inherited.
> 
> I thought Trump's "running for president" in 2016 was just a publicity gimmick to promote his The Apprentice show. Remember the $50 per fan wearing Trump t-shirts and banners at Trump Tower on the day he announced he's running?
> 
> According to Michael More, it's actually worst than that.
> 
> Trump was being paid lower than another female TV star. Seems NBC or CBS weren't too happy with his show's ratings so they don't pay him as much as they used to.
> 
> So the Donald decided to take the presidential season as an opportunity to show those media executives how much the plebs still love him. By getting on TV and doing political stuff around the country to get noticed again.
> 
> Hence the dozen or two paid actors cheering him on as he announced his run.
> 
> Turns out his racist rant put the media executives off so they decided to cancel his show altogether.
> 
> But damn it, the Donald already booked a couple more venues. What to do? Can't waste it right?
> 
> So he turn up to them, give more stupid, racist rants... and it resonnated with the struggling, mostly White, Americans who have had it with the establishment.
> 
> Remember watching a few exclusive report on how the Trump campaign have practically zero political organisation beside booking a few venues? No website to raise money, no political operatives etc. etc.?
> 
> That's because he didn't plan on it ever getting off the ground.
> 
> ----------



Well I hope you get a following, I've really got enough problems happening in my little World of a disabled daughter, two grandkids, two ffing chickens and a blind/deaf jack russell, to really give a $hit about Trump.
I know I can sort some of the above problems out, one isn't Trump, so I put it at the bottom of my have to worry about issues.
I wish you well in your endeavor's, to get Trump chucked out, but hope it doesn't stuff up my shares too much. It looks as though the rest of the loonies will stuff up my dividends enough, without you stuffing up my capital.lol


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Well I hope you get a following, I've really got enough problems happening in my little World of a disabled daughter, two grandkids, two ffing chickens and a blind/deaf jack russell, to really give a $hit about Trump.
> I know I can sort some of the above problems out, one isn't Trump, so I put it at the bottom of my have to worry about issues.
> I wish you well in your endeavor's, to get Trump chucked out, but hope it doesn't stuff up my shares too much. It looks as though the rest of the loonies will stuff up my dividends enough, without you stuffing up my capital.lol




Don't worry about Trump. Worry about what's behind him getting elected. That and the crap he'd been signing into law.

My endeavour is not to save the world. Just have enough to house and feed the family. Just that my line of work mean I get to read the news and try to understand what's going on.

I'm also a capitalist pig. A skinny one but that's not out of my own choosing 

So I'm not trying to stuff up your capital and investment. If anything, not having people like Trump is what will safeguard both capital investment and a civil society. And you'd want both.

I mean most of us aren't going to invest in a third world economy right? Too many poor people and few (but way too many) rich a-holes singing their own praises, stealing from the poor to fatten themselves as they pretend it's really good for the country.

Economies like that won't last. The only investment opportunity would be the militarised everything... and they already own those.
--------------

With your situation and sentiment, why are you right-leaning Homer? Just old age or what?


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> With your situation and sentiment, why are you right-leaning Homer? Just old age or what?



Because I have worked my whole life as a grunt, and I have found when the Libs are in the unions and Labor and the press, hold them to account.
When Labor are in they run amok, they take the pizz out of the worker, and no one says fluck all.
But the workers,work it out pretty soon, and they get ar$holed out pretty quick.
Then the circle starts again. 
As Murdoch apparently said, one term of Shorten is acceptable.
Why because everything he is talking about screwing over, affects the little man trying to get ahead, unfortunatelly the little man is Shortens voter base. lol
They are such a lost bunch of souls. Lawyers trying to represent something they have never been, the Labor Party has been hijacked by interllectuals.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Because I have worked my whole life as a grunt, and I have found when the Libs are in the unions and Labor and the press, hold them to account.
> When Labor are in they run amok, they take the pizz out of the worker, and no one says fluck all.
> But the workers,work it out pretty soon, and they get ar$holed out pretty quick.
> Then the circle starts again.




Alright, fair enough. Too true I reckon.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Alright, fair enough. Too true I reckon.



I'll put it into a current context for you, in W.A the Alcoa workers have been on strike for six weeks, they don't want more money or conditions just job security.
Shorten was there last week giving his support, Alcoa has requested it go to the Fair Work Commission, a Labor organised body with union representation.
Let's see the outcome.


----------



## Darc Knight

Interesting topic. Are there any other reasons people would be supporters of Trump other than the general belief that "right wingers" are better for creating prosperity?
I guess there are those like Mo who feel the Dems are corrupt so "defend" Trump.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> I'll put it into a current context for you, in W.A the Alcoa workers have been on strike for six weeks, they don't want more money or conditions just job security.
> Shorten was there last week giving his support, Alcoa has requested it go to the Fair Work Commission, a Labor organised body with union representation.
> Let's see the outcome.




Outcome will be that... in order to secure jobs, all jobs must be insecure 

That's not really a joke either.


----------



## Tink




----------



## basilio

Thanks Tink for the tip off on Donald Trumps speech at the World Drug Forum.

Certainly confirmed the calibre of the man. 

*Remarks by President Trump at “Global Call to Action on the World Drug Problem” Event*
 Healthcare 

Issued on: September 24, 2018


Share:



All News
United Nations Headquarters
New York, New York

8:35 A.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you all for being here this morning. It is a great honor to address you on an issue that affects every nation across the globe: the world drug problem.  And a big problem it is.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-global-call-action-world-drug-problem-event/


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Thanks Tink for the tip off on Donald Trumps speech at the World Drug Forum.
> 
> Certainly confirmed the calibre of the man. /



Worried your coke supplies are going to get cut off?


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> That's not why.
> 
> He's the one that's making it all that worst on his own (poor) people.
> 
> Assuming for a second that Trump's policies on NATO saves money. Did he passed the savings on to poor Americans? No.
> 
> In his first year, Trump raised the official military budget by some $70B. In this second year, raised it another $40B+ to some $720B a year. And if all military-related expenses, such as Veteran Affairs, the dept. of Energy nuke maintenance etc... it's about $1Trillion a year.
> 
> Then there's the tax cuts. $1.5Trillion top line. Recently floating the redefinition of "capital gain"... taking into account inflation... that's estimated to cost the Treasury about $500B over a decade. There's another planned "tax reform" by this November.
> 
> If I remember right, he also repealed the "Death Tax". So now, all the trust fund kids whose parents estate divvied up among the lucky sperms are no longer taxable. It used to only taxed when the inheritance, after all expenses, is some $8M each sibling. But taxing it would "impede competition" and incentives to work or some bs.
> 
> Anyway, so $2Trillion in tax cuts he just gave to the top 1%.
> 
> Is he as equally generous towards the other 90%?
> 
> Fark no.
> 
> Cutting funding to public schools. Most schools in poorer cities now cannot have class when it's too cold, or too hot. Their A/C and heating system no longer work. There's mould everywhere, literally lead-poisoned tap water... teachers at public schools literally have to pack lunch for some of their students because they know the kids don't get enough to eat at home.
> 
> But Trump cut any subsidy or lunch programme to them.
> 
> I mean, who's going to pay for that right? Where's the money coming from? He just gave $2T away, bloated the military budget... so belts got to be tightened.
> 
> -----------
> 
> With NATO...
> 
> Trump's forcing the same shite on European he's forcing on his own people. Lucky the EU just quietly nod and pretend to agree with what their master tells them, else they'll have to double spending on their military.
> 
> Where will the money come from? It'll have to be cut from other (social, welfare) services. Who will suffer?
> 
> And why the increased on NATO? Russia?
> 
> Compare the military spending, GDP of Russia with those of Europe. It's like day and night.
> 
> ---
> 
> China...
> 
> if the US doesn't want a trade deficit, then stop buying Chinese made crap. Most of those are owned or benefiting major American corporations anyway. i.e. Wal-Mart, Apple, Amazon etc.
> 
> So the trade war is just another attempt to tax the majority of American consumers. i.e. the poor and working class Americans who buy Chinese-made stuff. Rich ones won't be caught dead wearing anything from the Wal-Marts.
> 
> Trump is just talking bs. It is also an attempt to get the Chinese to open up their financial institution. i.e. he's taking care of Wall St... and just like other presidents... the majority of the population are paying the price.



Military budget is going up because of china. 
Trump tariffs are to get companies to shift out of china- to either the US or US friendly sht hole. Moves the US away from enriching a potential enemy.

Trump has got the US working again. Was it best employment rate in 50 years or something?
All this crap about Obama is just that. Gop tore down his reforms and never looked back.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Military budget is going up because of china.
> Trump tariffs are to get companies to shift out of china- to either the US or US friendly sht hole. Moves the US away from enriching a potential enemy.
> 
> Trump has got the US working again. Was it best employment rate in 50 years or something?
> All this crap about Obama is just that. Gop tore down his reforms and never looked back.




Is the US going to have a shoot out with China? Or China going to send its carriers to Hawaii and lopped a few?

Both countries have nukes. Going at each other directly will end life on earth. 

So China, Russia, Terrorism, Communism, hippies... all just pre-text to subsidise the military industrial complex. That and taking on weak poor, unarmed countries with loads of natural resources.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Is the US going to have a shoot out with China? Or China going to send its carriers to Hawaii and lopped a few?
> 
> Both countries have nukes. Going at each other directly will end life on earth.
> 
> So China, Russia, Terrorism, Communism, hippies... all just pre-text to subsidise the military industrial complex. That and taking on weak poor, unarmed countries with loads of natural resources.



Its a cold war right now. We are fighting them in numerous countries already.

All out war is always a possibility.
 Russia recently flew bombers down the uk coastline. They have been doing numerous stupid military stunts that ended in close calls.
 Their recent spyplane down in Syria was a bit of a laugh. They tried to blame Israel but thats not what the evidence showed. One mistake and the proxy wars escalate.

China is very aggressive in the south china seas and only a matter of time before they take full control. 
They are also trying to get their station up in the antarctic so they don't have to use the us gps tracking. China is positioning strongly.

Do you take the Chinese for granted. They pretty much can shut down any dissenters life down with their national points system in their country. They walk all over human rights,  other countries rights,  environment, are building a giant war machine. They are a massive threat right now.
Trump investing is needed as the US is getting behind. They are under constant cyber attack and have invested in this area. They are behind on the sonic delivery of bombs and getting behind on aircraft capabilites. I'd question if Russia and its robotic weapons system is pulling ahead.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Its a cold war right now. We are fighting them in numerous countries already.
> 
> All out war is always a possibility.
> Russia recently flew bombers down the uk coastline. They have been doing numerous stupid military stunts that ended in close calls.
> Their recent spyplane down in Syria was a bit of a laugh. They tried to blame Israel but thats not what the evidence showed. One mistake and the proxy wars escalate.
> 
> China is very aggressive in the south china seas and only a matter of time before they take full control.
> They are also trying to get their station up in the antarctic so they don't have to use the us gps tracking. China is positioning strongly.
> 
> Do you take the Chinese for granted. They pretty much can shut down any dissenters life down with their national points system in their country. They walk all over human rights,  other countries rights,  environment, are building a giant war machine. They are a massive threat right now.
> Trump investing is needed as the US is getting behind. They are under constant cyber attack and have invested in this area. They are behind on the sonic delivery of bombs and getting behind on aircraft capabilites. I'd question if Russia and its robotic weapons system is pulling ahead.




China's human rights records is... what record  No idea what you're talking about people disappearing.

Shouldn't joke about it, but yes, it's horrible.

America's is just slightly better. Better in that they don't also disappear lawyers or keyboard warriors. 

According to Chris Hedges, the US under Obama already made it legal to disappear US citizens the president deemed "a bad guy". No judge, no jury, just buggered off somewhere safe.

Then there's the removal of rights to privacy, just caused etc. that we haven't heard much about 'cause the "free press" decided it's not important enough.

Then there's the rights they handed out to those nasty illegals begging for refuge. And their children too.

That's just on US territory. Forget about the many, many foreign adventures with friends some might call a dictator and all round war criminals.  

Russia's... either they're being framed or getting real sloppy at it.

----------

So free speech, freedom, human rights... meh 'ka. 

Have you seen what they did to the Water Protector trying to stop the flow of oil across a river upstream from millions of water consumers?

A hippy kid lost an arm [or an eye] when a stunt grenade calmly hit her in its peaceful attempt to disperse the crowd.

Apparently spraying water doused in pepper during sub-freezing temperature doesn't do it quick enough. 

-------

Anyway, a country have to right to build up its military. If it don't somebody else will help them once they moved on in.

But you got to be aware of these things called human rights, war crimes and crimes against humanity stuff.

That and you cannot control the whole world, and its space. 

Got to know when enough is enough. Going too far and the search for "security" [as opposed to dominance] becomes a short march to nuclear winter.

And if it doesn't, you country will go broke.


----------



## Darc Knight

Mo back with a vengeance. Been boning up on Fox News.
Welcome back Mo!


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> Mo back with a vengeance. Been boning up on Fox News.
> Welcome back Mo!




Should always be careful what you asked for, Batman.


----------



## moXJO

Darc Knight said:


> Mo back with a vengeance. Been boning up on Fox News.
> Welcome back Mo!




Pfft strictly breitbart. Fox is too left for my liking


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Should always be careful what you asked for, Batman.



Where ever someone posts progressive dribble,  I'll be there....


----------



## Knobby22

Mr Trump, who begins his political rallies with boasts about his economic record, used the same rhetoric before the crowd of world leaders and diplomats, telling them he had accomplished more than almost any previous US president.

"In less than two years, my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country," he said.

The remark led to some murmuring and laughter in the crowd, taking the president slightly aback. "So true," he said, looking directly into the audience.

"I didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay," he said, which was followed by more laughter and applause.

(he's got to remember to differentiate between the brainwashed and an independent audience).


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> Mr Trump, who begins his political rallies with boasts about his economic record, used the same rhetoric before the crowd of world leaders and diplomats, telling them he had accomplished more than almost any previous US president.
> 
> "In less than two years, my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country," he said.
> 
> The remark led to some murmuring and laughter in the crowd, taking the president slightly aback. "So true," he said, looking directly into the audience.
> 
> "I didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay," he said, which was followed by more laughter and applause.
> 
> (he's got to remember to differentiate between the brainwashed and an independent audience).




I think the audience would quite agree with Donald Trump on the scale of his achievements in the first two years. He is truly a weapon of mass destruction..


----------



## luutzu

Knobby22 said:


> Mr Trump, who begins his political rallies with boasts about his economic record, used the same rhetoric before the crowd of world leaders and diplomats, telling them he had accomplished more than almost any previous US president.
> 
> "In less than two years, my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country," he said.
> 
> The remark led to some murmuring and laughter in the crowd, taking the president slightly aback. "So true," he said, looking directly into the audience.
> 
> "I didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay," he said, which was followed by more laughter and applause.
> 
> (he's got to remember to differentiate between the brainwashed and an independent audience).




To be fair, he didn't specify what was accomplished.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Where ever someone posts progressive dribble,  I'll be there....




Be there to fight progress... or wipe the dribbles?


----------



## Tisme

Knobby22 said:


> Mr Trump, who begins his political rallies with boasts about his economic record, used the same rhetoric before the crowd of world leaders and diplomats, telling them he had accomplished more than almost any previous US president.
> 
> "In less than two years, my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country," he said.
> 
> The remark led to some murmuring and laughter in the crowd, taking the president slightly aback. "So true," he said, looking directly into the audience.
> 
> "I didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay," he said, which was followed by more laughter and applause.
> 
> (he's got to remember to differentiate between the brainwashed and an independent audience).




I think he was expecting a sneer of loathing rejection from the crowd, but instead he rec'd a compliment...no democrats (i.e. reporters) in audience?


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I think he was expecting a sneer of loathing rejection from the crowd, but instead he rec'd a compliment...no democrats (i.e. reporters) in audience?




Sounds like there's going to be war with Iran any moment now.

I mean, he accused the Iranian regime of "looting" the country's resources to line their own pocket; spreading war and mayhem in the region... That's "not good". Liberation and democracy is what's desperately needed. Just look how well Iran's two neighbours are doing since liberation.


----------



## Junior

moXJO said:


> Military budget is going up because of china.
> Trump tariffs are to get companies to shift out of china- to either the US or US friendly sht hole. Moves the US away from enriching a potential enemy.
> 
> Trump has got the US working again. Was it best employment rate in 50 years or something?
> All this crap about Obama is just that. Gop tore down his reforms and never looked back.




I think you're overestimating Trump, if you think there's any logic, strategy or reasoning behind his decision-making.  

The guy watches Fox & Friends and then tweets out a new policy based on what he saw on TV.  He doesn't read.  It's reported that he watches 8 hours of TV a day, and refuses to go to work before 10am.  He has no relevant prior experience for the job.


----------



## Knobby22

Tisme said:


> I think he was expecting a sneer of loathing rejection from the crowd, but instead he rec'd a compliment...no democrats (i.e. reporters) in audience?




If you call being laughed at a compliment.
He was shocked. He said "so true" after the laughter started.
He really does believe he is the best President ever.


----------



## Tisme

For his part, Mr. Trump said the laughter didn't bother him and that the speech "went very well."

"It was great," Mr. Trump said. "That was meant to get some laughter. It was great."


----------



## bellenuit

Tisme said:


> For his part, Mr. Trump said the laughter didn't bother him and that the speech "went very well."
> 
> "It was great," Mr. Trump said. "That was meant to get some laughter. It was great."




He also said his talk with Putin went very well while anyone with half a brain knew Trump was made look like an idiot.


----------



## SirRumpole

How is "the wall" progressing ?


----------



## Tisme

*UN claims:
*
_"The stock market is at an all-time high in history" = *true*_
_"Jobless claims are at a 50-year low" = *true*
"African American, Hispanic American, and Asian American unemployment have all achieved their lowest levels ever recorded" = *true*
"We have added more than 4 million new jobs, including half a million manufacturing jobs" = *true*
"We have started the construction of a major border wall."  = *true*
"The missiles and rockets are no longer flying in every direction [in North Korea]. Nuclear testing has stopped. Some military facilities are already being dismantled." = *true*
"In the year since the [Iran] deal has been reached, the military budget grew nearly 40 percent." = *true*_


----------



## CanOz

How do you explain "America is richer"?


----------



## Kerway

I can understand all the personal dislike for Trump. I feel the same way. The criticism of his record so far is less logical.


----------



## sptrawler

CanOz said:


> How do you explain "America is richer"?



They are putting up interest rates, they haven't been able to do that for 10years, because no one could pay anyway.
So it follows, they wouldn't be putting them up, if people still couldn't pay them.
Don't confuse richer, with how much money people have, most spend everything.
All interest rates going up tells you, is people can now take on more debt, to buy more $hit they don't need again.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> *UN claims:
> *
> _"The stock market is at an all-time high in history" = *true*
> "Jobless claims are at a 50-year low" = *true*
> "African American, Hispanic American, and Asian American unemployment have all achieved their lowest levels ever recorded" = *true*
> "We have added more than 4 million new jobs, including half a million manufacturing jobs" = *true*
> "We have started the construction of a major border wall."  = *true*
> "The missiles and rockets are no longer flying in every direction [in North Korea]. Nuclear testing has stopped. Some military facilities are already being dismantled." = *true*
> "In the year since the [Iran] deal has been reached, the military budget grew nearly 40 percent." = *true*_




Assuming they're "true". It's still like claiming that the sun rises each day since he became president it therefore most be him that made the sun rise. 

Did he made possible all that goodness? No. 

Maybe jobless claims are low not because there's more jobs and more employed people. It's low because he freakin remove anything to claim for. Hence it's low.

They haven't started "construction" on a wall. They are building a few prototype to demo what the wall would look like. That's not "started" anything.

North and South Korea are doing peace talks despite the US. It was the South's president that pushes for peace talks. And he did it without first consulting the colony's governor and masters too. 

It'd then be bad PR to overthrow or bomb the place so Trump jumps in to take credit. 

But unification of the two Koreas will not happen. China, Russia and the US will not permit it.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Assuming they're "true". It's still like claiming that the sun rises each day since he became president it therefore most be him that made the sun rise.
> 
> Did he made possible all that goodness? No.
> 
> Maybe jobless claims are low not because there's more jobs and more employed people. It's low because he freakin remove anything to claim for. Hence it's low.
> 
> They haven't started "construction" on a wall. They are building a few prototype to demo what the wall would look like. That's not "started" anything.
> 
> North and South Korea are doing peace talks despite the US. It was the South's president that pushes for peace talks. And he did it without first consulting the colony's governor and masters too.
> 
> It'd then be bad PR to overthrow or bomb the place so Trump jumps in to take credit.
> 
> But unification of the two Koreas will not happen. China, Russia and the US will not permit it.



Not wanting to be negative, but the post doesn't have the hard hitting comments, you normally put forward. It's probably late at night.
If North and South Korea were having peace talks, despite Trump, they would have been having them a few years ago. Nothing but Trump, has changed.
If the unification of North and South Korea happens, will you stop bagging everything. lol


----------



## moXJO

Junior said:


> I think you're overestimating Trump, if you think there's any logic, strategy or reasoning behind his decision-making.
> 
> The guy watches Fox & Friends and then tweets out a new policy based on what he saw on TV.  He doesn't read.  It's reported that he watches 8 hours of TV a day, and refuses to go to work before 10am.  He has no relevant prior experience for the job.




I've got mates in the $100 million range worth businesses and real estate . 

Dumb as dogshit to most academics. They hire all the smart people and put em on a wage.

 They ain't afraid to do what needs to be done. Its about getting results. 

If I wanted intelligent sounding powder puffs I would have backed Obama.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Not wanting to be negative, but the post doesn't have the hard hitting comments, you normally put forward. It's probably late at night.
> If North and South Korea were having peace talks, despite Trump, they would have been having them a few years ago. Nothing but Trump, has changed.
> If the unification of North and South Korea happens, will you stop bagging everything. lol




Busy watching YouTube to figure out how to use Adobe Premiere etc. to animate promo videos and other documentation. It's doing my head in.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Busy watching YouTube to figure out how to use Adobe Premiere etc. to animate promo videos and other documentation. It's doing my head in.



Put it on airtasker.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Put it on airtasker.




It'll take longer to explain what I wanted. That and I'm a cheap azz so the quality I want vs the price I'm willing to pay won't match up.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> It'll take longer to explain what I wanted. That and I'm a cheap azz so the quality I want vs the price I'm willing to pay won't match up.



Just employ one of them talented young people, to do it for you, spread the love and the wealth.
So they can improve their talents and maybe get into that housing market.
Help those that you worry so much about. lol


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Just employ one of them talented young people, to do it for you, spread the love and the wealth.
> So they can improve their talents and maybe get into that housing market.
> Help those that you worry so much about. lol




Need money first. Sending hope and prayers will have to do for now  

Like I often told my wife... I hope we don't become rich a-holes one day. To which she reminds me, let's worry about being not-poor first... cross that bridge when we get there.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> Assuming they're "true". It's still like claiming that the sun rises each day since he became president it therefore most be him that made the sun rise.
> 
> Did he made possible all that goodness? No.
> 
> Maybe jobless claims are low not because there's more jobs and more employed people. It's low because he freakin remove anything to claim for. Hence it's low.
> 
> They haven't started "construction" on a wall. They are building a few prototype to demo what the wall would look like. That's not "started" anything.
> 
> North and South Korea are doing peace talks despite the US. It was the South's president that pushes for peace talks. And he did it without first consulting the colony's governor and masters too.
> 
> It'd then be bad PR to overthrow or bomb the place so Trump jumps in to take credit.
> 
> But unification of the two Koreas will not happen. China, Russia and the US will not permit it.




My post wasn't put there for an argument, just for factual purposes to point out that faux laughter from the members of the junior nations present may lack merit.

The Europeans might think they can insult the US president with gaffaws etc, but they will be the ones cowtailing to the US demands for better trade deals and military protection. He'll have his staff at it already identifying who was taking the piss and sanction will happen, for sure.

This time next year will be interesting to see if China can keep up with US economic expansionism.


----------



## Darc Knight

Tisme said:


> . He'll have his staff at it already identifying who was taking the piss and sanction will happen, for sure.




Sounds more like Mugabe or some other human rights violator.


----------



## Knobby22

Tisme said:


> The Europeans might think they can insult the US president with gaffaws etc, but they will be the ones cowtailing to the US demands for better trade deals and military protection. He'll have his staff at it already identifying who was taking the piss and sanction will happen, for sure.
> .



Your arguments on his greatness show you are in his headspace. I therefore think you are right on this.
The French are in big trouble with him in particular. They practically told him his mother wears army boots.


----------



## IFocus

Stole this from somewhere else, remember the US is the richest nation in the world.

*The highest inequality in the developed world,* parlous levels of equality of opportunity for large sections of society. A health 'system' that abandons ill people to an early death or bankrupts them to pay for a medical procedure. Add to this, chronic levels of poverty and homelessness.

High levels of insecurity in work and *minimal employment rights for very many*, high levels of personal debt and *all out assault on environmental regulations* and quality of life by the administration that seems to despise anything even distantly related to the natural world.

An underfunded education system which is about the *lowest ranked in the developed world* and a racial divide which is more than an embarrassment; it's a disgrace.

The country's infrastructure is an international joke as much of it it hasn't been renewed in eighty plus years.

The reality for so many Americans is pretty bleak.


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> Sounds more like Mugabe or some other human rights violator.




Sounds like business etiquette to me


----------



## Tisme

IFocus said:


> Stole this from somewhere else, remember the US is the richest nation in the world.
> 
> *The highest inequality in the developed world,* parlous levels of equality of opportunity for large sections of society. A health 'system' that abandons ill people to an early death or bankrupts them to pay for a medical procedure. Add to this, chronic levels of poverty and homelessness.
> 
> High levels of insecurity in work and *minimal employment rights for very many*, high levels of personal debt and *all out assault on environmental regulations* and quality of life by the administration that seems to despise anything even distantly related to the natural world.
> 
> An underfunded education system which is about the *lowest ranked in the developed world* and a racial divide which is more than an embarrassment; it's a disgrace.
> 
> The country's infrastructure is an international joke as much of it it hasn't been renewed in eighty plus years.
> 
> The reality for so many Americans is pretty bleak.




Every time I go there I lament how the population accept the lack of social systems we have here, but they seem to accept it as the good life. I guess a large % of the citizens don't know any better and prefer to believe the patriotism hammered into them cradle to grave.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> My post wasn't put there for an argument, just for factual purposes to point out that faux laughter from the members of the junior nations present may lack merit.
> 
> The Europeans might think they can insult the US president with gaffaws etc, but they will be the ones cowtailing to the US demands for better trade deals and military protection. He'll have his staff at it already identifying who was taking the piss and sanction will happen, for sure.
> 
> This time next year will be interesting to see if China can keep up with US economic expansionism.




You have to put emojis with satire. 

Heard that the EU, Russia and China are ganging up against the US by setting up some sort of financial dome where their corporations can do business with Iran without being sanctioned by the US.

Old Europe used to just take orders. Now they're working with enemies to work with an enemy? 

In other news, Russia is deploying their S300 [?] anti-aircraft missile defense system to Syria. Something Israel had asked them not to a few years back.

But since the downing of a Russian spy plan where, it is alledged, Israeli jets flew a sortie over Syria without much warning to the Russian, Assad's surface to air missile let go a few rounds... to which the Israeli hid behind a Russian spy plane, causing 15 Russian death. 

Now, either Israel will have to limit their defense against Iran in Syria to a few unarmed Syrians... or keep up the weekly drop and potentially bringing in the US, the EU, Russia smack bang, no pssy footing, boots and all, into Syria... then Tehran. 

If you're a crazy warmongering idiot, you'd be thinking that since Trump is a once in a lifetime chance for Armageddon (or regional hegemony, whichever comes first)... and since he might not have a second term... better sacrifice a few pawns quickly to mourn and avenge.


----------



## Tisme

Knobby22 said:


> Your arguments on his greatness show you are in his headspace. I therefore think you are right on this.
> The French are in big trouble with him in particular. They practically told him his mother wears army boots.




Truth is I think his entertainment value is much better than our local political leaders. We are outsiders looking into a culture that is different to ours, but over there they seem to enjoy the constant imbroglios of politics, race, religion, etc. as if it's part of a serial movie.


----------



## luutzu

IFocus said:


> Stole this from somewhere else, remember the US is the richest nation in the world.
> 
> *The highest inequality in the developed world,* parlous levels of equality of opportunity for large sections of society. A health 'system' that abandons ill people to an early death or bankrupts them to pay for a medical procedure. Add to this, chronic levels of poverty and homelessness.
> 
> High levels of insecurity in work and *minimal employment rights for very many*, high levels of personal debt and *all out assault on environmental regulations* and quality of life by the administration that seems to despise anything even distantly related to the natural world.
> 
> An underfunded education system which is about the *lowest ranked in the developed world* and a racial divide which is more than an embarrassment; it's a disgrace.
> 
> The country's infrastructure is an international joke as much of it it hasn't been renewed in eighty plus years.
> 
> The reality for so many Americans is pretty bleak.




There's plenty of freedom though.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Stole this from somewhere else, remember the US is the richest nation in the world.
> 
> *The highest inequality in the developed world,* parlous levels of equality of opportunity for large sections of society. A health 'system' that abandons ill people to an early death or bankrupts them to pay for a medical procedure. Add to this, chronic levels of poverty and homelessness.
> 
> High levels of insecurity in work and *minimal employment rights for very many*, high levels of personal debt and *all out assault on environmental regulations* and quality of life by the administration that seems to despise anything even distantly related to the natural world.
> 
> An underfunded education system which is about the *lowest ranked in the developed world* and a racial divide which is more than an embarrassment; it's a disgrace.
> 
> The country's infrastructure is an international joke as much of it it hasn't been renewed in eighty plus years.
> 
> The reality for so many Americans is pretty bleak.



True in a lot of aspects. But what do people say about australia? 
Look at the aborigines living in poverty despite welfare.

If I want to become an expert in a field the US is where its at(or was).


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> You have to put emojis with satire.
> 
> Heard that the EU, Russia and China are ganging up against the US by setting up some sort of financial dome where their corporations can do business with Iran without being sanctioned by the US.
> 
> Old Europe used to just take orders. Now they're working with enemies to work with an enemy?
> 
> In other news, Russia is deploying their S300 [?] anti-aircraft missile defense system to Syria. Something Israel had asked them not to a few years back.
> 
> But since the downing of a Russian spy plan where, it is alledged, Israeli jets flew a sortie over Syria without much warning to the Russian, Assad's surface to air missile let go a few rounds... to which the Israeli hid behind a Russian spy plane, causing 15 Russian death.
> 
> Now, either Israel will have to limit their defense against Iran in Syria to a few unarmed Syrians... or keep up the weekly drop and potentially bringing in the US, the EU, Russia smack bang, no pssy footing, boots and all, into Syria... then Tehran.
> 
> If you're a crazy warmongering idiot, you'd be thinking that since Trump is a once in a lifetime chance for Armageddon (or regional hegemony, whichever comes first)... and since he might not have a second term... better sacrifice a few pawns quickly to mourn and avenge.




depends which machine I'm on and what glasses are available with the emoticons, but my avatar descriptor should be a constant reminder.

if you were a business man who saw a wider market opportunity to piggyback someone else's infrastructure spend would you try to stop them? Let China and Russia deplete their wealth on second rate weaponry and large armies, let them setup trading posts and when China does what it has always done (become a factional empire of feudal rulers) jump in and profit.

India will be the next big thing and they have no love loss for the Chinese.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> depends which machine I'm on and what glasses are available with the emoticons, but my avatar descriptor should be a constant reminder.
> 
> if you were a business man who saw a wider market opportunity to piggyback someone else's infrastructure spend would you try to stop them? Let China and Russia deplete their wealth on second rate weaponry and large armies, let them setup trading posts and when China does what it has always done (become a factional empire of feudal rulers) jump in and profit.
> 
> India will be the next big thing and they have no love loss for the Chinese.




The people is the sovereign in modern China. So it is currently a united fiefdom - like the US. Hence not much risk if it breaking out again that way.

After the GFC, a couple incident where the IMF and World Bank told Chinese debtor nations to forget about the debt... the comrades seem to have wised up and started their own Infrastructure Bank and other international tools of empire.

Such as trading in Yuan instead of all US dollars; like linking their empire with high speed rail while the other guy's collapsing, derailing, crumbling.

But I'm sure the US is betting on what you're saying though.

They did bet that China will be compliant like Mexico... didn't work out that way did it?

Now if you're China and a future colony you're investing in... say, Malaysia... got itself a new PM and "decided" to stop a $20B project you've spent a few good billions on. Would you just walk away or park a couple carriers off their coast to say hello?

---------

btw, reading about the Mitsui of Japan.

Apparently the Meiji Restoration took placed around 1867... in a couple decade it turn a feudal state with local lords into a more federated provincial system. 

Encouraged western education, engineering... Modernise their industries. 

I think the successor to Meji continue the trajectory and within a couple of decades a bunch of peasants sank a fleet of modern, top of the shelve Russian fleet. 

Seems that a country could take as little as a generation or two to turn themselves into a "centre of civilisation", butchering barbarians all over.


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> The people is the sovereign in modern China. So it is currently a united fiefdom - like the US. Hence not much risk if it breaking out again that way.
> 
> After the GFC, a couple incident where the IMF and World Bank told Chinese debtor nations to forget about the debt... the comrades seem to have wised up and started their own Infrastructure Bank and other international tools of empire.
> 
> Such as trading in Yuan instead of all US dollars; like linking their empire with high speed rail while the other guy's collapsing, derailing, crumbling.
> 
> But I'm sure the US is betting on what you're saying though.
> 
> They did bet that China will be compliant like Mexico... didn't work out that way did it?
> 
> Now if you're China and a future colony you're investing in... say, Malaysia... got itself a new PM and "decided" to stop a $20B project you've spent a few good billions on. Would you just walk away or park a couple carriers off their coast to say hello?
> 
> ---------
> 
> btw, reading about the Mitsui of Japan.
> 
> Apparently the Meiji Restoration took placed around 1867... in a couple decade it turn a feudal state with local lords into a more federated provincial system.
> 
> Encouraged western education, engineering... Modernise their industries.
> 
> I think the successor to Meji continue the trajectory and within a couple of decades a bunch of peasants sank a fleet of modern, top of the shelve Russian fleet.
> 
> Seems that a country could take as little as a generation or two to turn themselves into a "centre of civilisation", butchering barbarians all over.




I still think India will be the force majeur of Asia:

e.g.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/now...est-naval-base-east-of-the-suez-canal-1215952


----------



## IFocus

Tisme said:


> Every time I go there I lament how the population accept the lack of social systems we have here, but they seem to accept it as the good life. I guess a large % of the citizens don't know any better and prefer to believe the patriotism hammered into them cradle to grave.




Totally agree, the culture is interesting  was in Mexico mid 80's surfing down the west coast and regularly ran into US surfers from across the country. Remember one night a group of Aussies talking to a group from Florida/Texas/California the Americans were genuinely stunned that we didn't think the US was the best place in the world or that we didn't want to live there.

They were good guys but to us cynical Australians they were unworldly / totally brainwashed by the US system.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> I still think India will be the force majeur of Asia:
> 
> e.g.
> 
> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/now...est-naval-base-east-of-the-suez-canal-1215952




Haven't heard much about India. Maybe that's the way they like it but seems their military so far are more for literal defence rather than global peace-keeping.

China is getting real friendly with Pakistan to India's West; it just forgave Sri Lanka's previous president for taking its billions; Myanmar is straddling between Uncle Sam or Uncle Mao's spirit. Then there's Bangladesh not liking the Indians too much for diverting rivers and what not - that's opportunity there.

In that Chinese game of Go... being surrounded like that is called being owned. The Indian might not feel it yet.

Internally, India's caste system is holding back social and economic progress for hundreds of millions. One of Modi's campaign pledge a few years back was a toilet for every household... hope he already delivered on that since.

Only a few years ago that India's and China's smog and pollution problem got the same headline. I've only read that China is doing something about it. Like switching dramatically over to LNG, away from coal... making massive investment in renewable, high tech, infrastructure. 

For example, just got a notification yesterday from China's tech YT channel showing how they managed to assembled some 300km of high speed rail tracks in 5.5hours. Cutting travel time between another two major cities from 7 hours down to 90minutes. 

That's a massive reduction in energy consumption, pollution, productivity. 

And by the look of that video, seem the Chinese have figured out how to lay the tracks faster. From older videos I've seen, the old ways would remove/place the sleepers one at a time, track goes on top etc.

Their new method, maybe they got it from newer approach... they pre-install the rail/sleepers sections and just stack and join them like those toy train sets.


----------



## sptrawler

The Fed Reserve has increased interest rates, for the third time this year, with one more expected and more raising next year.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/us-central-bank-hikes-rates/10307294?section=business

Our interest rates should start following next year, which will be nice, for the self funded.


----------



## basilio




----------



## sptrawler

I guess basilio, we will have to see how Trump goes in the 2020 election, unless the media can get rid of him before.


----------



## basilio

Michale Lewis, author of The Big Short, has written a book on the the Trump transition into government. 
Fascinating and terrifying. But it ceratinly adds to ones knowledge base.

*This guy doesn’t know anything’: the inside story of Trump’s shambolic transition team *
Illustration: Nathalie Lees
Michael Lewis, author of Moneyball and The Big Short, reveals how Trump’s bungled presidential transition set the template for his time in the White House

Thu 27 Sep 2018 01.00 EDT

*Shares*
1003

Chris Christie noticed a piece in the New York Times – that’s how it all started. The New Jersey governor had dropped out of the presidential race in February 2016 and thrown what support he had behind Donald Trump. In late April, he saw the article. It described meetings between representatives of the remaining candidates still in the race – Trump, John Kasich, Ted Cruz, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders – and the Obama White House. Anyone who still had any kind of shot at becoming president of the United States apparently needed to start preparing to run the federal government. The guy Trump sent to the meeting was, in Christie’s estimation, comically underqualified. Christie called up Trump’s campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, to ask why this critical job had not been handed to someone who actually knew something about government. “We don’t have anyone,” said Lewandowski.

Christie volunteered himself for the job: head of the Donald Trump presidential transition team. “It’s the next best thing to being president,” he told friends. “You get to plan the presidency.” He went to see Trump about it. Trump said he didn’t want a presidential transition team. Why did anyone need to plan anything before he actually became president? It’s legally required, said Christie. Trump asked where the money was going to come from to pay for the transition team. Christie explained that Trump could either pay for it himself or take it out of campaign funds. Trump didn’t want to pay for it himself. He didn’t want to take it out of campaign funds, either, but he agreed, grudgingly, that Christie should go ahead and raise a separate fund to pay for his transition team. “But not too much!” he said.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...ide-story-of-trumps-shambolic-transition-team


----------



## sptrawler

Well like I said, there is plenty of hate mail against him, the election should tell the story. IMO
Not long to go till the election, just hang on to the hate, hold the anger embrace it.


----------



## CanOz

Pretty sure most Australians wouldn't accept this....


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> View attachment 89517
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most Australians wouldn't accept this....




If the Democrats were a "working man's Party" like our Labor Party is, they wouldn't accept it either.

It's pretty clear that they are just a pale shadow of the Republicans.


----------



## CanOz

They dems don't have the votes at the moment to oppose much mate. Give it few months.


----------



## CanOz

For the record, i believe Trumps trade war is long over due. Perhaps it will get all countries thinking of trade that is more balanced. I don't think it is possible for a country the size of the US, a highly developed nation, to get to the point where there is balanced trade between the US and China. It just doesn't add up.


----------



## basilio

*Trump tax avoidance claims: New York authorities launch 'vigorous investigation' into story on president's finances*
*President participated in 'dubious tax schemes' including 'outright fraud', New York Times report alleges*



Chris Baynes
16 hours ago
20 comments


Click to follow
The Independent US
New York state tax authorities are investigating allegations that Donald Trump participated in “dubious tax schemes” including “instances of outright fraud” that increased his wealth by hundreds of millions of dollars.

A _New York Times_ investigation uncovered a “vast trove of confidential tax returns and financial records” which the newspaper said showed the president and his siblings set up a fake corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents.

Mr Trump is said to have received the equivalent of at least $413m (£318m) from his father Fred C Trump’s property empire, with much of the money allegedly accumulated through tax evasion.

The state’s Department of Taxation and Finance said it was “reviewing the allegations in the NYT article and is vigorously pursuing all appropriate avenues of investigation”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-fred-inheritance-millions-nyt-a8566091.html


----------



## basilio

This article is  very good if anyone is interested in a closer look at the elements behind the  Trump alleged tax evasion/avoidance story.

*Did the Trump family’s tax practices break the law? An expert explains.*
*Donald Trump’s family avoided taxes, but did they evade them? We asked an expert why the difference matters.*
By Gaby Del Valle@gabydvjgaby.delvalle@voxmedia.com   Oct 3, 2018, 6:20pm EDT
     Share 




Donald Trump and Fred Trump attend _The Art of the Deal _book party on December 12, 1987, at Trump Tower in New York City.
Ron Galella/WireImage
 

On Tuesday, the New York Times published a bombshell investigation that claims President Donald Trump — who repeatedly bragged on the campaign trail about being a “self-made” billionaire — actually inherited his wealth largely through creative, and possibly illegal, accounting done alongside his father, real estate mogul Fred Trump.

Though Trump has repeatedly boasted about using his business acumen to transform a “small loan” of $1 million from his father into billions, the Times found something quite different. When the younger Trump was just a toddler, the report says, Fred Trump began giving him part-ownership of several properties. Doing so allowed the elder Trump to funnel money directly into his son’s accounts, thus letting him sidestep the 55 percent gifts and inheritance tax. Fred Trump also gave his son at least $60.7 million in loans, many of which were interest-free and not tethered to a repayment schedule.

Some key takeaways from the report:


In 1990, Fred Trump sent a man named Howard Snyder to Donald Trump’s Atlantic City casino with a $3.35 million check, which Snyder used to buy casino chips. He left the casino without even hitting the craps table. That money was, in effect, an untaxed gift from father to son.
Beginning in 1992, Fred Trump’s real estate business began purchasing boilers, refrigerators, cleaning supplies, and other equipment from a company called All County Building Supply & Maintenance instead of a wholesaler. All County, which was owned by Donald Trump and his siblings and charged much higher rates than other suppliers, seems to have been a shell company that existed only to siphon Fred Trump’s money to his children under the guise of business transactions.
In 1995, Fred Trump began transferring ownership of his properties to his children through grantor-related annuity trusts (GRATs), a mechanism through which wealthy families can pass on property to their children without paying gift or inheritance taxes.https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/3/17934360/trump-taxes-illegal-new-york-times-expose


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> On Tuesday, the New York Times published a bombshell investigation that claims President Donald Trump — who repeatedly bragged on the campaign trail about being a “self-made” billionaire — actually inherited his wealth largely through creative, and possibly illegal, accounting done alongside his father, real estate mogul Fred Trump....................




Looking back on the your recent link posts in this thread, everyone of them have the editorial flavour of those old magazines that shouted some nonsense as if sliced bread had just been invented, but the content was a yawn.

I appreciate you are passionate about saving the world from itself, but perhaps some of you own conflicted thoughts would be more of a balanced perspective than some socialist information factory churn.


----------



## SirRumpole

CanOz said:


> For the record, i believe Trumps trade war is long over due. Perhaps it will get all countries thinking of trade that is more balanced. I don't think it is possible for a country the size of the US, a highly developed nation, to get to the point where there is balanced trade between the US and China. It just doesn't add up.




Europe has been an exlusive trade cartel for decades, so if your keep people out of your club for that long, at some time they are going to respond in kind.


----------



## Tisme

Anyone just watch Trump live in Minnesota? He works the crowd rather well.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Anyone just watch Trump live in Minnesota? He works the crowd rather well.




Yeah he does, but it's his crowd.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah he does, but it's his crowd.




Which was large enough to vote him in when he was a curiousity. I wonder if he is correct with his assertion of recent (4 days) swings in the percentage teens to his mantra because the public are disillusioned by the Dems performance with Kavanaugh.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Which was large enough to vote him in when he was a curiousity. I wonder if he is correct with his assertion of recent (4 days) swings in the percentage teens to his mantra because the public are disillusioned by the Dems performance with Kavanaugh.




The mid term elections will say a lot.


----------



## wayneL

Dick Smith on YourMoney this morning "Australia needs Donald Trump"


----------



## luutzu

Great discussion. 

Not so much about Trump but about American exceptionalism.


----------



## sptrawler

Good post Iuutzu, the wife and I actually today booked a trip early next year to Stockholm and Copenhagen, St Petersburg. He gave it a good wrap and we really want to see the World, after 50years of saving FF it.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Good post Iuutzu, the wife and I actually today booked a trip early next year to Stockholm and Copenhagen, St Petersburg. He gave it a good wrap and we really want to see the World, after 50years of saving FF it.




Good on you Homer.


----------



## Tisme

Where are the Democrat ASF experts on all things USA now that Trump succeeded in getting Brett Kavanaugh across the line...... no good sport congrats and a cyber handshake?


----------



## PZ99

Gloom to Bloom 

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...0/news-story/b72a6fbf029ea0d7c95086e7078a0dd4


----------



## Tisme

PZ99 said:


> Gloom to Bloom
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...0/news-story/b72a6fbf029ea0d7c95086e7078a0dd4




*Michael Bloomberg becomes a Democrats, prepares run for president in 2020*
DONALD Trump looks set to be challenged by another billionaire who has signed up as a Democrat and his eyes seem set on the White House.


_"...becomes a Democrat*s* ......" _= top grammar 

_"The global media company founder said he has registered as a Democrat, which would be especially significant *if he *decides to challenge US President Donald Trump in 2020." 

Fake news?_


----------



## basilio

Viva la Difference ..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Viva la Difference ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 89703



We have leftists attacking people on the street,  at their houses,  in restaurants.
Democrat senators calling for violence.
Its getting ridiculous.

But yeah.....  look out for nazis.


----------



## Tisme

Didn't take long


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> We have leftists attacking people on the street,  at their houses,  in restaurants.
> Democrat senators calling for violence.
> Its getting ridiculous.
> 
> But yeah.....  look out for nazis.



It is the sum of their argument, as they don't have an argument.


----------



## IFocus

Sanders has a pretty good argument

"In terms of the global economy, we see today massive and growing wealth and income inequality, where the world’s top one percent now owns more wealth than the bottom 99%, where a small number of huge financial institutions exert enormous impact over the lives of billions of people."


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> We have leftists attacking people on the street,  at their houses,  in restaurants.
> Democrat senators calling for violence.
> Its getting ridiculous.
> 
> But yeah.....  look out for nazis.




I know right. Some even dare going to their Senator's office and demand them do stuff. 

Bloody mob. Don't they have lobbyists for that kind of engagement?


----------



## SirRumpole

IFocus said:


> Sanders has a pretty good argument
> 
> "In terms of the global economy, we see today massive and growing wealth and income inequality, where the world’s top one percent now owns more wealth than the bottom 99%, where a small number of huge financial institutions exert enormous impact over the lives of billions of people."





Pity Bernie is probably too old to run for Prez again.


----------



## IFocus

SirRumpole said:


> Pity Bernie is probably too old to run for Prez again.




Yes and he really is very moderate by world standards, there is no one else in the US that has any real shot at power (not that I think Sanders is electable in the US) of that ilk hence my amusement of claims the left/ marxism are taking over or even a threat


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Pity Bernie is probably too old to run for Prez again.




Democracy does not rely on one man or woman. It relies on the mob. 

Too bad the mob's too easily distracted and too readily fall for sweat talkers. 

With proper organisation, enough time to sit back and think about things... they could peacefully forced any douche in power to comply.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> I know right. Some even dare going to their Senator's office and demand them do stuff.
> 
> Bloody mob. Don't they have lobbyists for that kind of engagement?




No they shoot them. But keep making out like a mob is a good way for justice.
Encouraging this kind of behaviour is stupid. Supporting it is stupid.
Either side getting so riled up that they commit violent acts is stupid. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...se-congress-shot-alexandria-virginia.amp.html


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> With proper organisation, enough time to sit back and think about things... they could peacefully forced any douche in power to comply.



Yeah then into re-education camps. Or out the back and two in the head. That where we are going?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> No they shoot them. But keep making out like a mob is a good way for justice.
> Encouraging this kind of behaviour is stupid. Supporting it is stupid.
> Either side getting so riled up that they commit violent acts is stupid.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...se-congress-shot-alexandria-virginia.amp.html




Who encourages violent behaviour? 

I was referring to the latest talking point by the GOP calling protestors, peaceful protestors, "mob", "socialist mob" because why? Because they dare turn up to the Senate offices and sit in, making noises while protesting.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Who encourages violent behaviour?
> 
> I was referring to the latest talking point by the GOP calling protestors, peaceful protestors, "mob", "socialist mob" because why? Because they dare turn up to the Senate offices and sit in, making noises while protesting.



They went to senator houses,  doxxed and death threats. There is nothing wrong with protesters. Its when it morphs into mob rule and mob law.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Yeah then into re-education camps. Or out the back and two in the head. That where we are going?




Dude, we still got a democracy. There's no need for that. Plus, you know how fully loaded and ready to go the gov't is for any die hards?

In Western democracies, it's the peaceful, unified mob that scares the crap out of the political and economic elite. 

That's how all social progress had been achieved. From desegregation led by Martin Luther King Jr., to automotive safety, environmental protection, ending imperial wars, social safety net etc. etc.

That's why our masters have been systematically destroying and removing as many opportunities and solidarity movement as they can without resorting to martial law. 

e.g. merged and monopolised, corporatised media; little to nothing being "free"; high personal debt; as little education as possible for the masses etc. etc.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> They went to senator houses,  doxxed and death threats. There is nothing wrong with protesters. Its when it morphs into mob rule and mob law.




Dude, if any of that were true, those people will have been handcuffed or shot by the secret service already.

Protesting, yelling at your "servants" when they do the bidding of another master on your dime; getting into their faces in public places... that's what a democracy looks like.

Were any of the wise old senators physically hurt? Or just their feelings of having to listen to a bunch of unwashed peasants?

Let's watch and tear up for the poor Senators yelling back at "the mob" threatening lawlessness.


----------



## basilio

*Where Donald Trump is taking us.*

"But in the Freudian view, the success of the Trumpian con should point us to our archaic heritage – and indeed the past to which Trumpism aspires lies much deeper than the mid-20th century, or whatever period those red hats are referring to. Trump promises more than the restoration of white men to their rightful place at the top of the org chart. He promises to make the world comprehensible again without the intercession of pointy-headed elites and the nagging of social justice warriors. He urges us all to shake loose the surly bonds of civilised conduct: to make science irrelevant and rationality optional, to render truth obsolete, to set power free to roam the world, to lift all the core conditions written into the social contract – fealty to reason, scepticism about instincts, aspirations to justice. We then, at last, will be restored to the primordial American state of nature – free to consume, to pillage, to destroy, to wall out our neighbours and to hate people for living in shitholes.

Trump indeed does more than promise: with his profligate lies, his proud immorality, his sneering disdain for fairness, his disregard for consistency or any other kind of integrity, he embodies those promises. He is the anti-_Aufklärer_, and his deepest appeal lies in an unspoken promise that lies behind the others: to undo the Enlightenment, to free us from the burdens of living rationally in a world where nothing is settled and where everything – economic well-being, national borders, gender identities, domestic arrangements – is up for grabs, let the strongest prevail.

To be continued


----------



## basilio

*Where Donald Trump is taking us*

"If the machine guns and mustard gas of the first world war revealed to Freud the fragility of what had seemed solid, the election of Trump reveals its decrepitude, if not its collapse. Without a single shot, with hardly any sort of sustained violent break at all, in a collective ejaculation of rage and resentment, a near-majority of the electorate went with its gut and rejected not a candidate or a party but an ethos shaped over five centuries, of which Freud was an acolyte and the odd profession he spawned an apotheosis. They rose up against the demand imposed by modernity – that we use reason to figure things out for ourselves – and replaced it not with the old rules, but with impulse itself, with the vengeance and cruelty and rage that Trump so brilliantly embodies. Freud’s answer, that we find our limits only when we recognise just how badly we need them, was insufficient, and its transvalued version even more so. As John Adams recognised in noting the way that democracy “wastes, exhausts and murders itself”, individuals may conquer themselves but “nations and large bodies of men, never”.

Still, the problem may lie not in our answers, but in the question itself: it may be that life on earth is too complex and chaotic for humans to manage, that our randomly acquired strengths and flaws did not evolve to meet that challenge, and that the idea that we can fashion an order that lasts is merely a conceit that reached its peak with the Enlightenment. Another of those conceits is that progress is inevitable, and it is possible that on the other side of the long darkness upon which we are now embarking is an understanding of ourselves and the world just as unimaginable to us as democracy was to a Lascaux cave artist, and that will not contain within it the seeds of its own destruction.

But that is far from certain, and here is where my profession and all it has taught us about the value of the interior landscape will come in handy. For we have only just begun to grieve the passing of this great experiment, of the idea that we will find in ourselves the ability to run our own show, and as we watch ourselves decline, we will have to get very good at mourning. My colleagues and I stand ready to assist.

https://thebaffler.com/outbursts/america-and-its-discontents-greenberg


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> They rose up against the demand imposed by modernity –
> .......... Another of those conceits is that progress is inevitable,




Those are two different things an not necessarily permeable nor immutable.

The preoccupation with Trump being either the root cause or the symptom of an imminent end of days scenario is people not moving with the times, instead locking themselves in  the good old recent days of cisgender, gay marriage, equal rights gazumping rational ineguity, pansy men and shrill women.

Progressive people are onboard with change, not with sabotage of the bedrocks that got us here in the first place.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Those are two different things an not necessarily permeable nor immutable.
> 
> The preoccupation with Trump being either the root cause or the symptom of an imminent end of days scenario is people not moving with the times, instead locking themselves in  the good old recent days of cisgender, gay marriage, equal rights gazumping rational ineguity, pansy men and shrill women.
> 
> Progressive people are onboard with change, not with sabotage of the bedrocks that got us here in the first place.




A big chunk of Europe were "with the time" some 8 decades ago. Didn't work out too well for most of the population.

Depends on your standard and definition of where that sweet spot is for Western civilisation.  But the principles that "got us here"... where's here?

Where the noble president said point blank that... yeaaahhh... (allegedly) ordering a hit on a mild critic, send in a team to dismember his body and spirit it away... that's kinda bad... BUT... but there's $110 billion to be made. Jobs, Jobs, Jobs.

Economic decay can be put up with. Humans will come to accept their place in the world, blame foreigners and refugees should ease the pain a bit... 

But moral decay... That's the spark that will lit up the whole place.

Most people are not psychotic. They will not put up with moral depravity. And if the elite want them to be involved, want them to fund its wars and exploitation... better include them in the booties and not just the heroic efforts and a medal.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump is probably needed in the US at the moment to remind people what good government looks like (by contrast).


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Trump is probably needed in the US at the moment to remind people what good government looks like (by contrast).




Interesting thought.. That suggests he and the GOP won't rig the deck to ensure another Democrat government is elected again.

So how could you do that ?  Easy in Georgia.

* Stacey Abrams: GOP opponent creating 'miasma of fear' over voting in Georgia *
Brian Kemp accused of seeking to suspend minority voters from registration rolls under the ‘exact match’ law

Tom McCarthy

 @TeeMcSee 
 Email 
Mon 15 Oct 2018 09.00 AEDT   First published on Mon 15 Oct 2018 02.12 AEDT

*Shares*
378




Stacey Abrams, Georgia’s Democratic candidate for governor, is trying to reach voters who don’t usually vote in midterm elections in the hopes to drive up turnout in her race against Republican Brian Kemp. Photograph: John Bazemore/AP
As a crisis of potential voter suppression in Georgia deepened, the Democratic candidate for governor accused her opponent of seeking to disenfranchise people of color and women by creating a “miasma of fear” around voting.

Stacey Abrams, who if elected would become the first African American woman governor of any state, is running against Georgia’s Republican secretary of state, Brian Kemp.

A lawsuit filed by civil rights groups on Thursday accused Kemp of seeking to disenfranchise more than 50,000 voters, up to 80% of them minority voters, by suspending voters from registration rolls if records held by various state agencies show any slight discrepancy in how a voter’s name is hyphenated, spelled or spaced.

.....The margin in the last two Georgia gubernatorial races has been about 200,000 votes. An Associated Press investigation found that Kemp’s office had cancelled more than 1.4m voter registrations since 2012, including nearly 670,000 in 2017 alone.

...As minority leader in the Georgia House of Representatives, Abrams led a lawsuit against Kemp in 2016 challenging the exact match voting regulation, which was not state law at the time. A federal judge ruled Kemp improperly cancelled 33,000 voter registrations.

Abrams said on Sunday Kemp “knew” the exact match system would lead to disenfranchisement.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/14/stacey-abrams-brian-kemp-georgia-governors-race


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> A big chunk of Europe were "with the time" some 8 decades ago. Didn't work out too well for most of the population.
> 
> l.




Not doing too well socially ATM, thus why the rise of nationalism. Not withstanding the world war that managed to absorb an already cruel Asian theatre, dare I say that the resilience of the UK and Germany is predicated on strong foundations of mercantile, applied engineering and industry ... I doubt they would have grown resilient societies based on touchy feely policies where the citizens are each and everyone microcosms serving their own selfish purpose, which is what Oz is turning into as it imports hundreds and thousands of pen pushing migrants to keep the GDP and recessionary figures looking good.

Strong governance with national purpose is what trickles down to the masses, sometimes brutality mars that performance.


----------



## SirRumpole

Tisme said:


> Strong governance with national purpose is what trickles down to the masses, sometimes brutality mars that performance.




There has been very little nation building going on in this country for quite some time.

First step is getting the power infrastructure back to a position where it can satisfy not only current needs but an expanded industrial sector, then start talking about building some autos, aircraft or even computers here.


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> There has been very little nation building going on in this country for quite some time.
> 
> First step is getting the power infrastructure back to a position where it can satisfy not only current needs but an expanded industrial sector, then start talking about building some autos, aircraft or even computers here.




Yes if you put into context the ratio of population versus big projects, it would be difficult to find comparisons old versus new.


----------



## luutzu

Tisme said:


> Yes if you put into context the ratio of population versus big projects, it would be difficult to find comparisons old versus new.




How about internet speed? Or domestic energy prices? Or housing affordability? Or homelessness per capita?


----------



## Tisme

luutzu said:


> How about internet speed? Or domestic energy prices? Or housing affordability? Or homelessness per capita?




Um I think you misunderstood the comparo premis.


----------



## basilio

*Did you know The Supreme Narcissist in Chief is also a Great Art Lover ?*

Yep he has a new, very special painting taking pride of place in his Office.







https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ent-trump-new-painting-white-house-republican


----------



## Tisme

Full disclosure:


----------



## basilio

Indeed ! Done by the same artist. Equally as kitsch.

The "small" difference is no other President would have had the crass conceit to hang it up in the White House as a public homage to his highness. That's your boy!


----------



## SirRumpole

Who is the guy on the right in the Dems painting ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Who is the guy on the right in the Dems painting ?



FDR?


----------



## basilio

I believe Roosevelt is the one seated at the front with his back. He has the trademark long cigarette.

I'm pretty sure the Prez  standing on the right is Woodrow Wilson.


----------



## basilio

Anyway this is just the  beginning  of this historic series of Scenes from the Presidency. I understand from an inside sauce (sic) (deep throat..) that  the Narcissist in Chief has big plans for using this grand design as part of his 2020 presidental campaign.

Plans at the moment revolve around
1)  Creating  another picture around the lines of the Magnificent 7 with the Boss leading 6 other key Republicians in the charge to liberate the US from the yoke of Liberalism. ( Truly...1)

2) These will be promoted around the country  with  really fancy price tags for the donors who want to be seen to be supporting the Boss

3) For the ones who want to be *really seen* as supporting  Il Duce they can be painted in as one of the Mag 7.  Depending on the amount they pony up they can be painted close up or further away.

4) Anyone who wants to be recognised as part of the Mag 7 also needs to buy at least 100 full size copies at $10,000 each which can be donated to their friends to show how committed they are to The Cause.

Don't  think this is a guy only affair. As always women will have their place. My sauces tell me that another painting along the James Bond line is being commissioned with all of Il Duces  current and historical  squeezes festerered in appropriate poses around him. Bit like an adoring , hot harem. The Thunderball poster is a current guideline

Again women supporters of Il Duce can pay to replace one of the figures and buy 100 to promote amongst their friends.

Yep.  This guy has* BIG* ideas


----------



## Tisme




----------



## CanOz

Give me a bloody break Tosser. The fed had the pump well and truly into the economy before Trump even knew he was a twinge in the rednecks Ball$ack...if Twitter was around when Bush and Obama were, you'd have a harvest! You are the problem with this forum mate! Tick tock!


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> *Anyway this is just the  beginning  of this historic series of Scenes from the Presidency.* I understand from an inside sauce (sic) (deep throat..) that  the Narcissist in Chief has big plans for using this grand design as part of his 2020 presidental campaign.




Like this one?


----------



## basilio

Reading the story helps one appreciate this.


----------



## basilio

*
Trump says he has 'natural instinct for science' when it comes to climate change

President Donald Trump told the Associated Press that he has a "natural instinct for science" that informs his understanding of climate change and allows him to see through the political bias that he accused some scientists of holding.*

In his interview, published Wednesday, the president reiterated his belief that the climate is changing but argued that the climate "goes back and forth, back and forth." He claimed that scientists are divided on whether climate change is the result of human activity, even though the vast majority of climate scientists believe that it is.

"You have scientists on both sides of it. My uncle was a great professor at MIT for many years, Dr. John Trump," the president said. "And I didn’t talk to him about this particular subject, but I have a natural instinct for science, and I will say that you have scientists on both sides of the picture."

Trump's comments to the AP came in response to remarks he made in an interview with CBS's "60 Minutes," in which the president admitted that climate change is not a hoax, but also said he believes that it may not be "man-made."

Earlier this month, the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released a report saying that the planet will reach 1.5 degrees celsius above pre-industrial levels as soon as 2030, which could increase the risk for extreme drought, wildfires, floods and food shortages for hundreds of millions of people.

The president said that he is "an environmentalist."

*"Everything I want and everything I have is clean. Clean is very important — water, air," he said. "I want absolutely crystal clear water and I want the cleanest air on the planet and our air now is cleaner than it’s ever been. Very important to me."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/17/trump-instinct-climate-change-910004*


----------



## basilio

Tisme said:


>





And of course if FOX news prints it it must be true.
Just like all the other lies they print, Trump spouts and Tisme  parrots.


----------



## basilio

In terms of job creation, if nothing else, Donald Trump seems quite similar to his predecessor.

In Barack Obama’s last 16 months in office, the number of jobs in the US increased by 2.4%. In the first 16 months of Trump’s administration, jobs rose by 2.1%, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The strong labor market under Obama turned into a strong labor market under Trump as healthcare and education continued to boom.

When you look closer, a lot has changed for certain industries.

Under Trump, the situation for certain mining and manufacturing industries has greatly improved. Work in the category “Support activities for mining”—which includes jobs exploring mining sites—grew by almost 28% under Trump, compared to losses of about 23% in the last 16 months of Obama.

It is not clear how much Trump’s policies have led to the increase in manufacturing and for miners’ brighter prospects. Jobs in these industries are cyclical, and also grew at times under Obama. Yet it seems likely that in the short-term, Trump’s emphasis on deregulation has sparked some growth, though the long-term consequences for the environment and US economy could be quite bad.

https://qz.com/1347200/the-jobs-created-under-trump-are-different-than-under-obama/


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> And of course if FOX news prints it it must be true.
> Just like all the other lies they print, Trump spouts and Tisme  parrots.





CanOz said:


> Give me a bloody break Tosser. The fed had the pump well and truly into the economy before Trump even knew he was a twinge in the rednecks Ball$ack...if Twitter was around when Bush and Obama were, you'd have a harvest! You are the problem with this forum mate! Tick tock!




And you got a like from another member who likes to use personal insult laden with vulgar language, How good is that .. birds of a feather. If I resorted to that kind of speak, I'd have a PM waiting in my inbox...hopefully you will too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckd...-10-times-obamas-over-21-months/#e3b346f58508

"
*The Trump Manufacturing Jobs Boom: 10 Times Obama's Over 21 Months"*


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> And of course if FOX news prints it it must be true.
> .




Good for agreeing with Fox. I'm more reserved and tend to find facts before I give endorsements... it's safer that way and preserves my rep as being right almost all of the time.


----------



## SirRumpole

So why is the Dow down Don ?


----------



## Tisme

SirRumpole said:


> So why is the Dow down Don ?




Yeah the markets get edgy when a dictator is taken to task for torturing and murdering journalists. Odd that.


----------



## basilio

Tisme if you read the stooge who wrote that piece in Forbes you would be well aware  it came from a very biased source. Basically wants to rip up every bit of red tape that prevents businesses/miners from trashing any clean water and air that is left in pursuit of a dollar. 

And yes "apologies" for not putting in an EMO to make it clear that Fox News and truth is an oxy moron.

No apologies for giving Can Oz a tick for giving you a serve.  
I agree. You are a very big problem on this forum.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> You are a very big problem on this forum.




Some people didn't like what noco said either but I miss him now he's gone.

You would get so bored listening to your own echoes bas.


----------



## Tisme

basilio said:


> Tisme if you read the stooge who wrote that piece in Forbes you would be well aware  it came from a very biased source. Basically wants to rip up every bit of red tape that prevents businesses/miners from trashing any clean water and air that is left in pursuit of a dollar.
> 
> And yes "apologies" for not putting in an EMO to make it clear that Fox News and truth is an oxy moron.
> 
> No apologies for giving Can Oz a tick for giving you a serve.
> I agree. You are a very big problem on this forum.




Well then I suggest you get all your buddies together and march on Joe's castle with pitchforks and shovels like the mob mentality you so cherish.

Can I remind you of  a time you went over the top and went ballistic on me with trash talk and it was me who dismissed it as trivial so you weren't sent to Coventry?

Some of you guys are like buzzards perching on a branch looking for an opportunity to tear strips off members for having a contrary opinion or posting matter than is neither endorsed nor distanced by the OP.

For a supposed flock of investors, you seem blind to the sustained yield curves of the indice boards and the ROIs you are enjoying. You are letting your stoic social conditioning get in the way of your happy faces and resorting to the funk of cowardly abuse and disdain at members who don't lower themselves to you and your cohorts' occasional, albeit too frequent level.

And yes you may well get your wish after the trash talk and ignorant uneducated zeal by a couple of ignorant people to label me a racist because I made an erudite post, quoting a millenial saying,  about the admired traits of a particular tribe who do well in business.  Ignorance gazumping knowledge; akin to grafittiing the past.

You know nothing of or refuse to accept my history of charity, my circle of friends, my civics, etc apparently preferring to arm chair your way through life imagining you are a person of substance who has mastered the art of debasing people with gutter language and threats when you can't debunk facts at odds with your suppositions.

Laugh it up boys, but when the men leave you will be sermonising to an almost empty church....seen this many times on many boards since 1992.


----------



## moXJO

> The World Economic Forum’s (WEF) 2018 World Competitiveness Report ranks the United States No. 1 in global competitiveness, up from No. 3 in the past few years and its first top ranking in a decade. A high ranking matters.
> 
> As the WEF reports: “Global competitiveness is determined by the set of institutions, policies and factors that determine the level of productivity of a country … And productivity leads to growth ... and improved well-being." The U.S.’s top ranking therefore suggests a lot of growth and prosperity to come.
> 
> According to the Davos elite (who are no fans of Donald Trump), the U.S. is indeed “great again,” to borrow a Trumpian slogan. It is the country, according to the WEF, that should best prosper in Davos’ “fourth industrial revolution.”




Well there is always that.

 Lets  not embarrass ourselves and say its Obama's doing.  His policies were stripped bare and Trump is going in a completely different direction.

Thats not to say what obama was doing wouldn't work. But it would have honestly been more of the same. 

I'm interested to see if Trumps plan will work. But he might be stalled if the dems flip a house.


----------



## Darc Knight

Tisme said:


> Well then I suggest you get all your buddies together and march on Joe's castle with pitchforks and shovels like the mob mentality you so cherish.
> 
> Can I remind you of  a time you went over the top and went ballistic on me with trash talk and it was me who dismissed it as trivial so you weren't sent to Coventry?
> 
> Some of you guys are like buzzards perching on a branch looking for an opportunity to tear strips off members for having a contrary opinion or posting matter than is neither endorsed nor distanced by the OP.
> 
> For a supposed flock of investors, you seem blind to the sustained yield curves of the indice boards and the ROIs you are enjoying. You are letting your stoic social conditioning get in the way of your happy faces and resorting to the funk of cowardly abuse and disdain at members who don't lower themselves to you and your cohorts' occasional, albeit too frequent level.
> 
> And yes you may well get your wish after the trash talk and ignorant uneducated zeal by a couple of ignorant people to label me a racist because I made an erudite post, quoting a millenial saying,  about the admired traits of a particular tribe who do well in business.  Ignorance gazumping knowledge; akin to grafittiing the past.
> 
> You know nothing of or refuse to accept my history of charity, my circle of friends, my civics, etc apparently preferring to arm chair your way through life imagining you are a person of substance who has mastered the art of debasing people with gutter language and threats when you can't debunk facts at odds with your suppositions.
> 
> Laugh it up boys, but when the men leave you will be sermonising to an almost empty church....seen this many times on many boards since 1992.






I love a good Tisme rant. It'll be a sad day if I come in here and "the Tis" hasn't been running amuk


----------



## Tisme

Darc Knight said:


> I love a good Tisme rant. It'll be a sad day if I come in here and "the Tis" hasn't been running amuk




That day was closer than you know a few days back and is still weighing on my mind.

I don't possess a hate trait so their is no malice in my decision, and there are some wonderful people here, but the haters with indigent conversational talents...well one can only have so much fun poking them with a commonsense stick now and then.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Well there is always that.
> 
> Lets  not embarrass ourselves and say its Obama's doing.  His policies were stripped bare and Trump is going in a completely different direction.
> 
> Thats not to say what obama was doing wouldn't work. But it would have honestly been more of the same.
> 
> I'm interested to see if Trumps plan will work. But he might be stalled if the dems flip a house.




That WEF report is very interesting.  Well worth a closer read.  Which I did.

The report actually said the US was second in world competiveness so I'm not sure how it got  to first. (Where did you get your quote from ?)
But the really interesting part is going through a more detailed analysis of the  various components of their index. This was the summary that caught my eye.

_The United States ranks 2nd overall this year, displaying a constant improvement in score since 2010. Although ranking high overall, the country ranks 25th in basic requirements, with institutions, coming in below the top 10 and the macroeconomic environment placing 83rd. The macroeconomic environment pillar, out of all the components of the basic requirements subindex, has advanced the least and is one of the country’s worst-ranked areas. Compared with other top-ranked countries, the United States performs poorly in health and primary education, coming in 29th despite an improvement of 0.15 in score over the last year. The strength of the United States comes from its performance in efficiency enhancers and innovation and sophistication factors, where it comes in at 1st and 2nd respectively. These two subindexes reflect sound and well-functioning factors of production and product markets and a vibrant innovation ecosystem. The United States faces numerous policy uncertainties moving forward, many of which are in the areas where it is relatively weakest. Successfully meeting institutional challenges relating to both public and private institutions, improving the macroeconomic environment, and investing in human capital—particularly in the areas of health and primary education—will be crucial for the United States to maintain its position near the top of the competitiveness rankings.
_
http://reports.weforum.org/global-c...1539915511.7663860321044921875000#economy=USA


----------



## basilio

Tisme just go easy on the self inflation.  You might blow a gasket.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> I love a good Tisme rant. It'll be a sad day if I come in here and "the Tis" hasn't been running amuk




He's pretty good isn't it. Proper schooling without the proper manner


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> That WEF report is very interesting.  Well worth a closer read.  Which I did.
> 
> The report actually said the US was second in world competiveness so I'm not sure how it got  to first. (Where did you get your quote from ?)
> But the really interesting part is going through a more detailed analysis of the  various components of their index. This was the summary that caught my eye.
> 
> _The United States ranks 2nd overall this year, displaying a constant improvement in score since 2010. Although ranking high overall, the country ranks 25th in basic requirements, with institutions, coming in below the top 10 and the macroeconomic environment placing 83rd. The macroeconomic environment pillar, out of all the components of the basic requirements subindex, has advanced the least and is one of the country’s worst-ranked areas. Compared with other top-ranked countries, the United States performs poorly in health and primary education, coming in 29th despite an improvement of 0.15 in score over the last year. The strength of the United States comes from its performance in efficiency enhancers and innovation and sophistication factors, where it comes in at 1st and 2nd respectively. These two subindexes reflect sound and well-functioning factors of production and product markets and a vibrant innovation ecosystem. The United States faces numerous policy uncertainties moving forward, many of which are in the areas where it is relatively weakest. Successfully meeting institutional challenges relating to both public and private institutions, improving the macroeconomic environment, and investing in human capital—particularly in the areas of health and primary education—will be crucial for the United States to maintain its position near the top of the competitiveness rankings.
> _
> http://reports.weforum.org/global-c...1539915511.7663860321044921875000#economy=USA



Yes you are right. I see what they have done. They took the ranking score which is 5.9 for both 1st and 2nd and made the call they are equal first.


I'll link to the article 
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance...um-confirms-the-us-is-great-again-under-trump


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> No apologies for giving Can Oz a tick for giving you a serve.
> I agree. You are a very big problem on this forum.



I love how the NPCs don't see the irony of their own toxicity.


----------



## moXJO

moXJO said:


> Yes you are right. I see what they have done. They took the ranking score which is 5.9 for both 1st and 2nd and made the call they are equal first.
> 
> 
> I'll link to the article
> https://thehill.com/opinion/finance...um-confirms-the-us-is-great-again-under-trump



Wait thats an old or different report you posted.

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2018/country-economy-profiles/#economy=USA

US is number 1


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Wait thats an old or different report you posted.
> 
> http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2018/country-economy-profiles/#economy=USA
> 
> US is number 1




Why would getting praised by business groups as being "competitive" a good thing for the country again?

It'd be like you giving quotes or buying things and the client or seller is praising you for being very, very awesome. Yea, that idiot man, doing it so cheap, spending way too much I also feel bad taking advantage of him.

Great dealmaker that Trump.

I don't go to Harvard or some crap, but most would take it as a praise when the other side swears at them for  being such a tightwad and scream that they got family to feed too.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Yes you are right. I see what they have done. They took the ranking score which is 5.9 for both 1st and 2nd and made the call they are equal first.
> 
> 
> I'll link to the article
> https://thehill.com/opinion/finance...um-confirms-the-us-is-great-again-under-trump




In any case the US is *THE* predominant economiuc power in the world.  End of story.  It does have a very highly developed economic infrastructure. It does exercise global economic domination as far as it can. And with Don Trump at the helm it is determined to pursue an America First policy on all trade and development fields.

The question to be asked is  what could be the outcomes  of such an aggressive and US centric  economic/foreign policy?

Another overwhelming question is the US destruction of efforts to address CC.  This is not going to do away and will bit all countries including the US.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Why would getting praised by business groups as being "competitive" a good thing for the country again?
> 
> It'd be like you giving quotes or buying things and the client or seller is praising you for being very, very awesome. Yea, that idiot man, doing it so cheap, spending way too much I also feel bad taking advantage of him.
> 
> Great dealmaker that Trump.
> 
> I don't go to Harvard or some crap, but most would take it as a praise when the other side swears at them for  being such a tightwad and scream that they got family to feed too.





basilio said:


> In any case the US is *THE* predominant economiuc power in the world.  End of story.  It does have a very highly developed economic infrastructure. It does exercise global economic domination as far as it can. And with Don Trump at the helm it is determined to pursue an America First policy on all trade and development fields.
> 
> The question to be asked is  what could be the outcomes  of such an aggressive and US centric  economic/foreign policy?
> 
> Another overwhelming question is the US destruction of efforts to address CC.  This is not going to do away and will bit all countries including the US.



Well you were both arguing about Trumps economic record. Now you both flipped narrative.

What are we talking about now?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Well you were both arguing about Trumps economic record. Now you both flipped narrative.
> 
> What are we talking about now?




Building a strong economy does not equate to getting a high rating from capitalists now does it?

I mean, you never know, capitalist could just be giving a high "competitive" grade if you screw your workers, permit them free reign to destroy the eco system and not pay their fair share of taxes. 

Oh ey politicians... how about you let us keep more of the profit we made on your land and in return we give you a gold star rating? What say you?

Giving stickers doesn't impress my kids at all now.


----------



## CanOz

I have had enough of the guy, and his pals. I guess its finally my time to say goodbye...

Cheers all, thanks for the times!


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Building a strong economy does not equate to getting a high rating from capitalists now does it?
> 
> I mean, you never know, capitalist could just be giving a high "competitive" grade if you screw your workers, permit them free reign to destroy the eco system and not pay their fair share of taxes.
> 
> Oh ey politicians... how about you let us keep more of the profit we made on your land and in return we give you a gold star rating? What say you?
> 
> Giving stickers doesn't impress my kids at all now.



Employment figures? 
Business confidence? 
Manufacturing? 

You want all those things then you need a decent economy up and running. You need companies to stay onshore and pay tax etc.

What he is doing is a start.
As I have said before: I think trump is good for the US economy and bad for the rest of us. 
Terrible for Australia. The only comfort I will take out of labor winning the next election,  is that they will be less likely to suck up his ass.


----------



## basilio

CanOz said:


> I have had enough of the guy, and his pals. I guess its finally my time to say goodbye...
> 
> Cheers all, thanks for the times!




Well that is sad..  But I can well understand your POV. 

I guess at some stage  enough is enough and there are better things to do than  attempt to respond to much of the xhit that goes on in some of these threads.

Best of luck and cheers.


----------



## moXJO

CanOz said:


> I have had enough of the guy, and his pals. I guess its finally my time to say goodbye...
> 
> Cheers all, thanks for the times!



Just take a breather CanOz.
It's easy to get wrapped up in this stuff and then actively seek it out.
Just hit ignore and do what makes you happy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone is addicted to "outrage pr0n" at the moment. Stop looking for it if you don't like it.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Well you were both arguing about Trumps economic record. Now you both flipped narrative.
> 
> What are we talking about now?




Come on Moxjo . We are arguing that the sum total of Donald Trumps contribution as President is overwhelmingly negative. Why ?
1) His destruction of international relations in the name of  America first is riduculously short sighted. Lets seee what happens as the trade war bites

2) His destruction of international efforts to tackle CC is catastrophic.  CC is real. It's effects will be devestating. Ignoring it will only hasten the end game

3) His destruction of the political framework in the US and worldwide is catastrophic.  He has made bare faced lies, personal abuse, political corruption and venality all acceptable parts of  being a politican in the US. Just great

4) He is leading the way for every other authoritarian strong man to take over the body politics in their country. Brazil, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Italy  then look to Germany.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Employment figures?
> Business confidence?
> Manufacturing?




Debt ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Debt ?



That ain't shifting for a while yet.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> That ain't shifting for a while yet.




The Repubs approach to their national debt is remarkably similar to our Liberal Party's approach; disgraceful when the other side is in, not a problem when they are in.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/under-donald-trump-national-debt-tops-21-trillion-for-first-time-ever/


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> That ain't shifting for a while yet.




And it doesn't help when Trump votes in $1.5T of tax cuts for business.

But don't worry.  Next year they will come in to slash Medicare, food stamps, welfare to balance the budget.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> The Repubs approach to their national debt is remarkably similar to our Liberal Party's approach; disgraceful when the other side is in, not a problem when they are in.
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/under-donald-trump-national-debt-tops-21-trillion-for-first-time-ever/



Abbott and hockey tried to take on our debt. But it was judged to be to extreme.
I actually thought it was needed at the time.
Now eveyone is whinging because they kept spending. 

As for Trumps tax cuts I think we need more time to see if we get a long term result or not. It hasn't been a year since they rolled it out yet,  has it?


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> Abbott and hockey tried to take on our debt. But it was judged to be to extreme.
> I actually thought it was needed at the time.
> Now eveyone is whinging because they kept spending.
> 
> As for Trumps tax cuts I think we need more time to see if we get a long term result or not. It hasn't been a year since they rolled it out yet,  has it?




You can see the impact of his tax cuts on the stock price and share buybacks.


----------



## bellenuit

Nothing like a "good Christian" to put the murder of the Saudi journalist into perspective. Darling of the evangelical Christian Right, Pat Robertson, "Don't risk $100B arms sales..."


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> Nothing like a "good Christian" to put the murder of the Saudi journalist into perspective. Darling of the evangelical Christian Right, Pat Robertson, "Don't risk $100B arms sales..."





Yes well, when you have the livelihoods of thousands dependent on an arms deal it's a tough choice, but selling to the Saudis is as bad as selling to Saddam Hussein in my view, the Saudis are deeply bad people and the source of a lot of terrorism around the world (sorry if that sounds racist in the current world view on this forum).

I think the US will eventually rue getting into the tent with them.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> Yes well, when you have the livelihoods of thousands dependent on an arms deal it's a tough choice, but selling to the Saudis is as bad as selling to Saddam Hussein in my view, the Saudis are deeply bad people and the source of a lot of terrorism around the world (sorry if that sounds racist in the current world view on this forum).
> 
> I think the US will eventually rue getting into the tent with them.




The Saudis are all that... but that's why they were put there, by the US. It's how they decided to do imperialism in the Middle East post WWII. 

The Saudis have to buy military hardware from the US each and every year. That's the deal. They do not have a choice. That's the price the House of Saud have to pay if they want to live and enjoy life at the top.

Should watch "Syrianna", based on a book by former CIA operative in the Middle East - Hear no Evil, See no Evil... see George Clooney being cool and showing how these kind of theatre work.

Trump is not smart and eloquent enough to spin this whole thing the way an Obama or a Bill Clinton could. 

He's so clueless he think everyone value money over freedom of the press, butchering journalist and carrying the body away in bits and pieces. 

But then again the coalition and SA have been bombing the heck out of Yemen past few years, putting its population into the worst famine in 100 years... what's one guy though.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> The Saudis have to buy military hardware from the US each and every year. That's the deal. They do not have a choice. That's the price the House of Saud have to pay if they want to live and enjoy life at the top.




What's your source for that ?


----------



## bellenuit

SirRumpole said:


> Yes well, when you have the livelihoods of thousands dependent on an arms deal it's a tough choice




But should it be for someone who purports to follow Jesus? What do you think Jesus' response would be to that issue, based on what the scriptures tell us about him, fictitious or not?


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> What's your source for that ?




Noam Chomsky, Alfred McCoy, Chris Hedges, Paul Jay, that CIA-inspired movie I just mentioned... basically anyone who studied post-war M.E. history and politics.

You can watch that interview I posted with Paul Jay on the US/Saudi relationship. He sums it up a bit. 

But yea, the puppet show started way back before WWII ended when Roosevelt stopped by the not-yet Arabia of the Saud family. From memory I think he was on his way back from Malta with Churchill, Stalin where they mapped out how to divvy up the world and what bits Churchill's England get to keep a piece of.

Chomsky often joke that the Saudis buy a lot of high tech military hardware but they don't know what to do with it. Can't use it. Just park it there. 

Seeing how they've been bombing and choking off all imports into Yemen, accidentally droning school buses and big cars over the past few years and still haven't defeated the "terrorists", maybe they're just learning how to fly but haven't figured out how to really work it yet.

From that interview with Paul Jay... and this might very well be true but it's just speculation... the Crown Prince MBS might be being set up with both US and disgruntled royalties to get rid of him.

Know how MBS forced quite a few of his cousins to cough up billions some year or two ago? You create a few enemies that way right. 

But worst, he have the nerve to start dabbling in military gears from the EU, from Russia and from China. Spending some fair chunk of change on those barbarians and their deadly weapons. 

See if MBS will resign and head to the harem permanently or not...


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> But should it be for someone who purports to follow Jesus? What do you think Jesus' response would be to that issue, based on what the scriptures tell us about him, fictitious or not?




I've given up believing that most religious people are moral overall. Scott Morrison calls himself a Christian but he lets people commit suicide on Nauru and then turns a blind eye.

Its pointless pointing out their hypocrisy, I just try not to vote for them if I can help it.


----------



## basilio

*The Thug-in-Chief annointing his new thugee in front of his adoring thugettes*

* 'He's my guy': Trump praises Gianforte for assault on Guardian reporter *
*President’s comments at Montana rally in praise of violence against US journalist come amid international outcry over Khashoggi*

*Ed Pilkington in Missoula*

* @edpilkington *
*Fri 19 Oct 2018 17.26 AEDT   First published on Fri 19 Oct 2018 13.18 AEDT*

*1:46*
Laughter as Trump lauds politician's body slam of Guardian journalist – video report
_*Donald Trump has praised Greg Gianforte, the Congress member from Montana, for violently attacking a Guardian reporter, saying that someone who performs a body slam is “my guy”.*_

_Trump described in glowing terms the physical assault that occurred on 24 May  2017 when Ben Jacobs, the Guardian’s political correspondent, was asking Gianforte a question about health care policy in the course of a special congressional election in Bozeman, Montana. The US president incited cheers and chants from a crowd of about 8,000 supporters on Thursday night when he said: “Greg is smart. And by the way, never wrestle him. You understand. Never.”


As the cheers rang out across an aircraft hangar in Missoula, Trump went on to say: “Any guy that can do a body slam … he’s my guy.” After praising Gianforte, Trump acted out the motion of throwing a person violently to the ground.

 Trump’s comments mark the first time the president has openly and directly praised a violent act against a journalist on American soil._

There is the leadership of a true bully.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/18/trump-greg-gianforte-assault-guardian-ben-jacobs


----------



## moXJO

Its a three way power struggle between Saudi, Turkey and Iran. No one there gives a crap about about a wapo journo. They still chop of heads and hang the body for three days.


----------



## moXJO

luutzu said:


> Chomsky often joke that the Saudis buy a lot of high tech military hardware but they don't know what to do with it. Can't use it. Just park it there.
> 
> .



This isn't true. Guys come out and train their guys on big weapons purchases. You can also hire mercs as trainers from the big SOF companies.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *The Thug-in-Chief annointing his new thugee in front of his adoring thugettes*
> 
> * 'He's my guy': Trump praises Gianforte for assault on Guardian reporter *
> *President’s comments at Montana rally in praise of violence against US journalist come amid international outcry over Khashoggi*
> 
> *Ed Pilkington in Missoula*
> 
> * @edpilkington *
> *Fri 19 Oct 2018 17.26 AEDT   First published on Fri 19 Oct 2018 13.18 AEDT*
> 
> *1:46*
> Laughter as Trump lauds politician's body slam of Guardian journalist – video report
> _*Donald Trump has praised Greg Gianforte, the Congress member from Montana, for violently attacking a Guardian reporter, saying that someone who performs a body slam is “my guy”.*_
> 
> _Trump described in glowing terms the physical assault that occurred on 24 May  2017 when Ben Jacobs, the Guardian’s political correspondent, was asking Gianforte a question about health care policy in the course of a special congressional election in Bozeman, Montana. The US president incited cheers and chants from a crowd of about 8,000 supporters on Thursday night when he said: “Greg is smart. And by the way, never wrestle him. You understand. Never.”
> 
> 
> As the cheers rang out across an aircraft hangar in Missoula, Trump went on to say: “Any guy that can do a body slam … he’s my guy.” After praising Gianforte, Trump acted out the motion of throwing a person violently to the ground.
> 
> Trump’s comments mark the first time the president has openly and directly praised a violent act against a journalist on American soil._
> 
> There is the leadership of a true bully.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/18/trump-greg-gianforte-assault-guardian-ben-jacobs



I hope its on film.


----------



## luutzu

moXJO said:


> This isn't true. Guys come out and train their guys on big weapons purchases. You can also hire mercs as trainers from the big SOF companies.




They didn't put those big gears to use until quite recently, on Yemen. Though I could be wrong. 

Training isn't really using though. But yea, the assault on Yemen did give them plenty of real practice... though Western mercenaries are still leading the way based on a couple of articles I scanned through before on Reuters.


----------



## Darc Knight

CanOz said:


> I have had enough of the guy, and his pals. I guess its finally my time to say goodbye...
> 
> Cheers all, thanks for the times!




We need you Bear - strength in numbers. It takes a whole Village to raise a Child.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> We need you Bear - strength in numbers. It takes a whole Village to raise a Child.




Yep, the last thing we need is an echo chamber.

<agreeing with previous post>


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, the last thing we need is an echo chamber.
> 
> <agreeing with previous post>



Also agree,  I might differ from you guys,  but its important  a range of views are debated.

C'mon Can,  it's the Aussie way,  hang sh*t off each other then go have a beer afterwards.


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> Also agree,  I might differ from you guys,  but its important  a range of views are debated.
> 
> C'mon Can,  it's the Aussie way,  hang sh*t off each other then go have a beer afterwards.




Alright, what's going on. 

First we got whinging cuthroat traders not liking whining general discussion whiners but somewhat tolerate them.

Now we got right wingers shaking hands with centrist and lefties. Going off for a beer? 

Australians are alright after all


----------



## $20shoes

I'm much more in favour of Prechter's theories here. You are both arguing that the elected president has an outcome on the economy and on indicators such as the the DOW. But the influence is the other way around - the social mood of the day (as reflected in indexes), determines their perceived legacy and fate of presidents and has a direct bearing on how presidents are brought into office and taken out of office.

As an example, presidents are usually retained in landslides that take place near market tops and usually win two terms - we are in a final fifth wave that is typically marked by debt giving rise to property and stocks. The lustre is well and truly wearing off but we may complete Super Cycle Wave 5 on the S&P500 late next year which will be the culmination of 5 waves up that started in 1916.

If the bear market starts in Oct 2019, the social mood will take out its frustrations on the Republicans and they wont win another term in 2020. We're in a very old bull market folks, so it will be interesting to see how social mood alters people's perceptions of Trump as the markets unwind.


----------



## basilio

Found a story that explores the Politics of Rage. Starts with the current Trump administration but then back tracks to the US of 1830-50's as the southern states defended slavery with increasing levels of rage. The final result was the Civil war.

Well worth a read and think.

*America Descends Into the Politics of Rage*
Trump and other practitioners may reap short-term gains, but history suggests they will provoke a fearsome backlash.

 6:00 AM ET
Joanne Freeman
Professor of history and American studies at Yale University





Jonathan Ernst / Reuters

Anger has a peculiar power in democracies. Skillfully deployed before the right audience, it cuts straight to the heart of popular politics. It is attention-getting, drowning out the buzz of news cycles. It is inherently personal and thereby hard to refute with arguments of principle; it makes the political personal and the personal political. It feeds on raw emotions with a primal power: fear, pride, hate, humiliation. And it is contagious, investing the like-minded with a sense of holy cause.

In recent weeks, it has grown increasingly ubiquitous in American politics. In Montana this past Thursday, President Donald Trump praised Republican Representative Greg Gianforte, who pleaded guilty to assaulting the _Guardian _reporter Ben Jacobs, saying, “Any guy who can do a body slam … he’s my guy.”

The week before, the Republican candidate for governor in Pennsylvania told his opponent that he was “going to stomp all over [his] face with golf spikes.” On the other side of the political tracks, the former attorney general Eric Holder said, “When they go low, we kick them.” Both men later qualified their statements, noting that they didn’t mean to incite violence. Their purpose—though neither man explicitly said as much—was to use rhetoric to stoke passions and rouse support.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/trump-and-politics-anger/573556/


----------



## IFocus

Came across this thought it was priceless 

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/poli...tions-regarding-negotiations-with-north-korea


----------



## basilio

One of the latest ploys by Donald Trump to appeal to the nativist elements in the US is amending the 14th Amendment which gives citizenship to anyone born in the US.  

*President Trump may have met his match when it comes to U.S. citizenship: The 14th Amendment*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nship-constitution-14th-amendment/1818311002/

*The Real Origins of Birthright Citizenship*
Its purpose 150 years ago was to incorporate former slaves into the nation.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ight-citizenship-was-won-freed-slaves/574498/


----------



## SirRumpole

IFocus said:


> Came across this thought it was priceless
> 
> https://nowthisnews.com/videos/poli...tions-regarding-negotiations-with-north-korea




Oh the hypopcrisy !!


----------



## basilio

Another brick in the wall to bring Donald Trump to justice. Since becoming Prez he has (ab)used the office to enrich his clubs, hotels and business interests around the world-  all in complete disregard of the constitution which forbids the President from using the office to make money.

* Trump emoluments case ruling opens way to financial records *

Tax returns could be unearthed in Washington hotel suit
DC attorney general salutes ‘major win in historic case’
Associated Press in Washington

Sun 4 Nov 2018 03.10 AEDT




US flags fly over the Trump International Hotel in Washington. Photograph: Brian Snyder/Reuters
A federal judge has denied the justice department’s efforts to halt legal proceedings in a case in which Donald Trump is accused of violating the US constitution, opening the door for the president’s critics to gain access to financial records related to his Washington DC hotel.

Such records could include income tax returns which Trump has refused to release to public scrutiny.

Trump has been fighting multiple lawsuits that argue foreign representatives spending money at the Trump International Hotel is a violation of the constitution’s emoluments clause, which bans federal officials from accepting benefits from foreign or state governments without congressional approval.

In an attempt to stop the case moving on to legal discovery – which could unearth financial records such as tax returns – justice department lawyers asked Maryland-based US district judge Peter Messitte to put the case on hold while they appeal his decision to a higher court in Richmond, Virginia. They failed.

“This is another major win for us in this historic case,” said District of Columbia attorney general Karl Racine in a statement on Friday. “Our next step is to proceed with discovery. We will soon provide the court a new schedule to begin the process of getting information about how President Trump is profiting from the presidency.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nts-case-ruling-financial-records-tax-returns


----------



## basilio

There is an excellent story in The Atlantic  by Mark Frum who decided to debate Steve Bannon in Toronto.
Steve was once  speech writer for George Bush so he is on the conservative side of politics.

The story is long but exceptionally insightful as Mark discusses the rationale and outcome of his public debate. I picked out the core of his argument.
*The Real Lesson of My Debate With Steve Bannon*
I argued against the false promise of what Trump's former strategist bills as populism. Then events took a strange turn.

_I told the audience in Toronto that I hoped to speak to three groups of people.

I hoped to speak, first, to the small numbers of the genuinely undecided, to those who might imagine that populism offers them something. This is not true. The new populist politics is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are almost invariably crooks (although they are), but because they have no plans and no plans to make plans.

I hoped to speak, next, to the many people who see populism for what it is—and who resist it. Since the economic crisis of 2008 and 2009 and the euro-currency crisis that began in 2010, the so-called populists have won election after election in this country and in Europe. Even when the anti-populists have won, as they won in France in 2017, they have won by dwindling margins. Countries that formerly seemed secure against populism, like Germany, have been trending in ominous directions. But hope is not lost. On Tuesday, the American electorate has the opportunity to set the limit: This far have you gone; you will go no further. The tide turns here. What’s most urgently needed now is courage and confidence, and I hoped from the platform to do a little part to inspire even just a bit more of each.

Read: Steve Bannon may be too late to the populist party

I hoped to speak, finally, to those who see populism for what it is—and support it. I hoped to look in the face of their most self-conscious and articulate champion, Steve Bannon, and tell them: You will lose. You will discover what so many thugs, and bullies, and plunderers, and people who elevate themselves by subordinating and humiliating others have discovered before you: Liberal democracy is tougher than it looks. The cruel always believe the kind are weak. But human decency and goodness can also move human affairs. They will be felt. And today’s “populists” will follow their predecessors into what President George W. Bush so aptly called “history’s graveyard of discarded lies.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...frum-munk-debate-what-really-happened/574867/

_


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump has been relentlessly campaigning to support the mid term elections. So what does he say  ?  What do people take away ? What is the effect on the Trump army ?

*Inside the Alternative Universe of the Trump Rallies*
The president warns of radical, far-left Democrats and immigrant thugs in terms that bear little or no resemblance to the truth. His voters can’t get enough.

Andrew Kragie  10:00 AM ET





Jonathan Ernst / Reuters

Kim Moore clapped, pulled out her smartphone, and zoomed in to snap a picture of President Donald Trump just a few hundred feet away on the stage Sunday night in Chattanooga. She and her husband listened as Trump talked about how one of the women who’d accused Brett Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct had recanted. They hadn’t heard of this before, quite possibly because it wasn’t true. The woman in question had never made an allegation.

“You heard on Friday, what happened?” the president asked rhetorically. “One of his accusers came out and said she never met him, that she made up the story. It was a total lie.” He raised his voice and mockingly cried, “Rape! Rape!”

That prompted a smattering of shouts from both male and female voices: “Lock her up!” The chant spread around the nearly packed 10,000-seat McKenzie Arena at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.

“It was false accusations. She made up the story. It was a lie … And now we have to find about the others with their …” Trump said, and here he paused. “Accusations.”

Moore, a 50-year-old Medicaid-program coordinator who had told me earlier that she was a rape survivor, watched closely. I wondered what she was thinking.


....    Kim Moore, the supporter who’d just taken the president’s photo with her cellphone, had somehow missed this news. But, in fact, none of Kavanaugh’s three publicly named accusers—Christine Blasey Ford, Deborah Ramirez, and Julie Swetnick—had publicly recanted. Trump was actually referring to a woman named Judy Munro-Leighton, who had, at one point, claimed to be the author of an anonymous “Jane Doe” letter, received by Senate investigators, making accusations against Kavanaugh. But she later recanted and said she was not the author of the letter. She had, in other words, never accused Kavanaugh of anything.

Read: The Secret to Brett Kavanaugh’s specific appeal

All of that was lost on those listening to Trump in Chattanooga.

“Anyone who was paying attention could tell that they were lying,” Sonya Wooden said of the women who made allegations. Doris Durham claimed that accusers were now coming forward to admit they were lying. “We were right all along,” she said.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...mp-stokes-fear-immigrants-his-rallies/574984/


----------



## basilio

Democrats look likely to win Congress. Currently won 21 seats off Republicians.

In the Senate Dems have lost 2 seats to date.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...lts-latest-winners-and-seats?CMP=results_blog


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Democrats look likely to win Congress. Currently won 21 seats off Republicians.
> 
> In the Senate Dems have lost 2 seats to date.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...lts-latest-winners-and-seats?CMP=results_blog




I don't want to be picky bas, but Congress is both the Reps and the Senate.

It's strange how the Dems gain in the lose but lose in the Senate, maybe an expert in US politics can tell us why.


----------



## PZ99

Either way, Trump's leash has changed ownership from Russia to the US


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> It's strange how the Dems gain in the lose but lose in the Senate, maybe an expert in US politics can tell us why.




Maybe it's just the way the votes get counted in the US... 

Real special like...

_Interestingly, the New York Times senate results as of now has *40.7m votes cast for the Democrats, while the Republicans have 31.6m votes*. But so far, the GOP has gained three seats, while the Democrats have lost three seats. Those numbers could shift as more votes are counted throughout the night._
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ws-updates-donald-trump-republicans-democrats


----------



## bellenuit

SirRumpole said:


> I don't want to be picky bas, but Congress is both the Reps and the Senate.
> 
> It's strange how the Dems gain in the lose but lose in the Senate, maybe an expert in US politics can tell us why.




The senate is one seat per state (there may be a couple of exceptions) which heavily favours rural states which are less educated and tend to be Republican. For instance, Wyoming which has less than 600,000 people of which 86% are white and only 24% have Bachelor degrees has 1 senate seat.  New Jersey has 9,000,000 people, 58% white and 35% with Bachelor degrees also has 1 senate seat. The densely populated North East and California, which are primarily blue states are severely disadvantaged when viewed by votes needed to elect a senator.


----------



## SirRumpole

bellenuit said:


> The senate is one seat per state (there may be a couple of exceptions) which heavily favours rural states which are less educated and tend to be Republican. For instance, Wyoming which has less than 600,000 people of which 86% are white and only 24% have Bachelor degrees has 1 senate seat.  New Jersey has 9,000,000 people, 58% white and 35% with Bachelor degrees also has 1 senate seat. The densely populated North East and California, which are primarily blue states are severely disadvantaged when viewed by votes needed to elect a senator.




Thanks, that makes sense.


----------



## luutzu

bellenuit said:


> The senate is one seat per state (there may be a couple of exceptions) which heavily favours rural states which are less educated and tend to be Republican. For instance, Wyoming which has less than 600,000 people of which 86% are white and only 24% have Bachelor degrees has 1 senate seat.  New Jersey has 9,000,000 people, 58% white and 35% with Bachelor degrees also has 1 senate seat. The densely populated North East and California, which are primarily blue states are severely disadvantaged when viewed by votes needed to elect a senator.




2 Senators per state isn't it?

And it's not more or less education that determine republicanism or democrats. That's just pulling stats to find cause. 

Most republicans who voted for Trump would have voted for Sanders in 2016. But they wouldn't vote for Hilary because of what she stands for, what her husband's admin did to their community. i.e. NAFTA export jobs to Mexico etc.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:
			
		

> Most republicans who voted for Trump would have voted for Sanders in 2016. But they wouldn't vote for Hilary because of what she stands for, what her husband's admin did to their community. i.e. NAFTA export jobs to Mexico etc.




How many seats have Labor won outside major cities ?

There are some people who are just rusted on no matter who the candidates are.


----------



## bellenuit

_Today, 20 senators from urban states represent roughly half the country’s population, while the other, rural half elects the remaining 80._
_
*U.S. Election Rules Doomed Democrats’ Chances Of Taking The Senate*

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...taking-the-senate_us_5be0a33be4b04367a87f786f



*Tyranny of the Minority*

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/trump-electoral-college-minority.html
_


----------



## wayneL

Their senate works like our senate. Its because like us, they are a federation. 

Its a good system,  otherwise California and New York etc,  *as states* would have too much influence .


----------



## wayneL




----------



## basilio

I thought this a great speech explaining how US "democracy" worked.


----------



## SirRumpole

Dead brothel owner wins state seat for Republicans.



https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ins-seat-in-nevadas-state-parliament/10475946



Mr Hof was unavailable for comment. 

--


----------



## bellenuit

*CNN claims White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders shared 'doctored' video of Jim Acosta*

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...cretary-sarah-sanders-shared-doctored-n933911


----------



## wayneL

Doctored?

Here is the source. Likely peoples opinion will depend on which side of politics they're on. 

The deep irony is CNN complaing about fake news.


----------



## wayneL

But as a point,  imagine if Trump had done the exact same thing,  CNN would've lost their minds.


----------



## Darc Knight

bellenuit said:


> *CNN claims White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders shared 'doctored' video of Jim Acosta*
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...cretary-sarah-sanders-shared-doctored-n933911




So Trump's abusing a Reporter .then an obviously morally challenged follower of Trump tries to rip the Microphone outta the Reporters hand. Most people who work for Trump seem to be morally challenged, the others quit.
Lucky she wasn't body slammed like Trump likes to see.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump is ceratainly fracturing the US relationship with the EU.  Just madness.

*Trump’s Bromance With Macron Fizzles Spectacularly*
A weekend of presidential drama in Paris culminated in the French president’s warning against an emerging global disorder.






PARIS—The ceremony was planned long in advance. A chance for French President Emmanuel Macron to welcome world leaders to mark the centenary of the armistice that ended the hostilities of World War I. A way to decry nationalism and reinforce his deep commitment to multilateralism, and to a European Union born out of past conflicts.
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...macron-bromance-fizzles-spectacularly/575572/


----------



## luutzu

wayneL said:


> But as a point,  imagine if Trump had done the exact same thing,  CNN would've lost their minds.




Looks like the Acosta Karate chopped her arm. Was that why Trump stepped away from the podium, planning to avenge the intern but the old injury that prevented him to go to Vietnam - a bone spur - also stopped him from going completely White Knight. 

You heard Trump's horror at another reporter's question about him being proudly calling himself "a  nationalist"? Oh! How dare you?! That's so racist (of you).


----------



## basilio

So how much of an authoritarian dictactor do you have to be to get this response from Fox News ? Well worth reading the full story.

*Fox News host tells Trump world sees him as 'beacon for repression'*
Send via Email

*Washington:* Fox News host Chris Wallace went after President Donald Trump for his attacks on the news media in an interview that aired on Sunday, telling the President he is "seen around the world as a beacon for repression" because of his rhetoric.
The _Fox News Sunday_ host told Trump that while other presidents expressed frustration with the news media, none had gone as far as Trump, who called them "the enemy of the American people".

"Barack Obama whined about Fox News all the time but he never said we were the enemy of the people," Wallace said.

Trump said "nobody believes in the First Amendment more than I do" and attempted to clarify that he did not believe all media is the "enemy", but only outlets that he considers "fake news".

"But a lot of times, sir, it's just news you don't like," Wallace replied. And he told the President that "leaders in authoritarian countries like Russia, China, Venezuela, now repress the media using your words".

"I can't talk for other people, I can only talk for me," Trump replied.

"But you're seen around the world as a beacon for repression," Wallace said.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...as-beacon-for-repression-20181119-p50gua.html


----------



## wayneL

Laughable,  bas.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Trump said "nobody believes in the First Amendment more than I do" and attempted to clarify that he did not believe all media is the "enemy", but only outlets that he considers* "fake news"*.




Like the place of Obama's birth perhaps ?


----------



## basilio

Looks like the *"Beacon of Light"* for authoritarian regimes has turned up to full dazzle. 
 
* Trump 'stands with' Saudi Arabia and defends crown prince over Khashoggi *

President issues extraordinary statement of support and repeats Saudi claim that murdered journalist was ‘enemy of the state’

Donald Trump has expressed his unstinting support for Saudi Arabia and claimed there was “nothing definitive” linking Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to the murder of the Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi.

In the extraordinary statement issued on Tuesday – which begins with the words “The world is a very dangerous place!” – Trump quotes Saudi officials as describing Khashoggi as an “enemy of the state”.

The 649-word statement appears to be a presidential act of defiance against the CIA, which has reportedly concluded that the Saudi prince ordered the killing, and the Senate, which is considering bipartisan legislation that would suspend weapons sales to Saudi Arabia among other punitive measures.

He told reporters at the White House that the CIA “didn’t make a determination” on the murder, and that they had “nothing definitive” on its perpetrator. The claim is contradicted by multiple reports that the intelligence agency has concluded that Prince Mohammed ordered the hit on the former Saudi insider who had become a persistent critic.

.... His statement made a series of false or unsubstantiated claims, suggesting that Riyadh is buying $110bn in US weapons. The actual total of offers since Trump took office is less than $15bn, and the value of actual signed contracts is significantly lower than that.

A new independent report found that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia account for fewer than 20,000 US jobs a year – less than a 20th of the employment boost Donald Trump has claimed.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/20/trump-saudi-arabia-jamal-khashoggi-crown-prince


----------



## wayneL

This is so boring bas

From the philosophical perpective:

*Matthew 7:3-5 *
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Must I dredge up the plethora if totalitarians of the left?


----------



## SirRumpole

Trouble is that the US needs Saudi Arabia as a bulwark to Iran.

Also the trouble that is the same thing that the US said about Iraq.

Meddling in middle eastern politics usually blows up in the West's faces.


----------



## basilio

I can see a point there Wayne.

If "The President of the Free World" starts calling the press "The enemy of the State", runs a world wide business network through his administration , employs family members  who tend to the family business while "working" for the government  and sets up huge tent camps in the desert for undesirables - perhaps we should be concerned.  

Or maybe that is what we should understand and accept in this era.


----------



## Miner

Interesting that we are worried for Trump and supporting his every move when he gives a damn to Australia.
I would have been much happier to see that we spend time on us : Where our leaders will take Australia? How long we would survive with single parent allowances and helping the family to split, Youth allowance at a minor age allowing kids to leave home, unstable PM chair, No strategic investment on rail or water transport instead clearing of lands (destabilising environment) with big roads but no local infrastructure, too soft angle to criminals, giving doles to criminals and ex prisoners, no 4 or 5 years planning model. Time has come for us to look into our own backyard than getting worried for Trump or French President.


----------



## luutzu

Miner said:


> Interesting that we are worried for Trump and supporting his every move when he gives a damn to Australia.
> I would have been much happier to see that we spend time on us : Where our leaders will take Australia? How long we would survive with single parent allowances and helping the family to split, Youth allowance at a minor age allowing kids to leave home, unstable PM chair, No strategic investment on rail or water transport instead clearing of lands (destabilising environment) with big roads but no local infrastructure, too soft angle to criminals, giving doles to criminals and ex prisoners, no 4 or 5 years planning model. Time has come for us to look into our own backyard than getting worried for Trump or French President.




Aussie PMs and politicians take Australia where Washington told them to. With maybe a couple minor improvisation around the edges.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> I can see a point there Wayne.
> 
> If "The President of the Free World" starts calling the press "The enemy of the State", runs a world wide business network through his administration , employs family members  who tend to the family business while "working" for the government  and sets up huge tent camps in the desert for undesirables - perhaps we should be concerned.
> 
> Or maybe that is what we should understand and accept in this era.




If we ever wonder how did the world allow the Holocaust to happen... don't need to wonder too far off.

Some 10 million Yeminis are literally starving to death. The greatest democracy in the world have been fuelling, providing target, ammo, logistics... and oh, recently stopped re-fueling the SA and "coalition"... but only stopped because the Saudis can now do the refuelling themselves. 

So did the crown prince, the new shining light bringing modernity and women-driver to SA... did he order the butchering of an undesirable? "maybe he did, maybe he didn't (just look at how much money we can make)" (US president Trump). 

Having the CIA playing the bad guy while the president stood by a crown prince in trouble... that's a lot of favour to be paid back. To both Uncle Sam and Trump Inc.


----------



## basilio

Looking like end days for the Thief-in-Chief. This story does a good job of cataloging the lies and corruption that are the hallmarks of this administration. Well worth a read

* The Mueller investigation is closing in on Trump *
Jill Abramson
What a catalogue of rogues – and what a tantalizing pile of clues. Surely we will soon know where all this leads
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/03/trump-mueller-investigation-manafort-cohen


----------



## basilio

There is another analysis which also pulls together the elements of Mueller investigation and makes it clear that, yeah, they were all lying. 

*This Was the Week the Mueller Probe Switched From “What If” to “What Else”*
*Real-world conspiracies don’t unravel neatly. But this is a week we’ll look back on.*
By  Dahlia Lithwick

 Dec 01, 20185:45 PM


Michael Cohen, former personal attorney to President Donald Trump.
Photo illustration by Slate. Photo by Drew Angerer/Getty Images.
At some point in the future, we will perhaps look back at this week as the week that brought a time switch in the Mueller probe. This was the week in which we learned that a lot of what had been reported as speculative, or reported but not taken seriously, or reported but forgotten, now maps onto real facts. This was the week that Trump confederates were shown to be liars or admitted to being liars. The president’s former lawyer has now established that he was lying to Congress to protect the president. The president, or “Individual 1” as he’s now described in legal filings, himself is now certainly a subject of great interest to federal investigators.

There are many things we do not know.* But it is worth recognizing that we have gone from a state of being in which Trump and his campaign were lying about Russia if certain things were shown to be true, to a state of being in which the president and his campaign were simply lying about Russia*. Is that in and of itself illegal? No. But whatever it is, this is not a witch hunt.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...probe-switched-from-what-if-to-what-else.html


----------



## basilio

*Just how many scams has the Thief-in-Chief been running ?* How many people has he stiffed, lied to, lied, about, assaulted ?  How many law suits are there both historical and current around his personal and financial affairs ?

* Trump's countless scams are finally catching up to him *
Rebecca Solnit
The daily news drip can make it difficult to recognize the immense scale of the president’s legal troubles

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ald-trump-russia-robert-mueller-legal-trouble


----------



## basilio

Could Donald Trump declare a State of  Emergency ? What could he do ?

*What the President Could Do If He Declares a State of Emergency*
From seizing control of the internet to declaring martial law, President Trump may legally do all kinds of extraordinary things.





The Voorhes


Elizabeth Goitein

In the weeks leading up to the 2018 midterm elections, President Donald Trump reached deep into his arsenal to try to deliver votes to Republicans.

Most of his weapons were rhetorical, featuring a mix of lies and false inducements—claims that every congressional Democrat had signed on to an “open borders” bill (none had), that liberals were fomenting violent “mobs” (they weren’t), that a 10 percent tax cut for the middle class would somehow pass while Congress was out of session (it didn’t). But a few involved the aggressive use—and threatened misuse—of presidential authority: He sent thousands of active-duty soldiers to the southern border to terrorize a distant caravan of desperate Central American migrants, announced plans to end the constitutional guarantee of birthright citizenship by executive order, and tweeted that law enforcement had been “strongly notified” to be on the lookout for “ILLEGAL VOTING.”

These measures failed to carry the day, and Trump will likely conclude that they were too timid. How much further might he go in 2020, when his own name is on the ballot—or sooner than that, if he’s facing impeachment by a House under Democratic control?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/presidential-emergency-powers/576418/


----------



## wayneL

The Atlantic is a joke


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> The Atlantic is a joke




Ah. Yet another publication Wayne will refuse to read.   What a surprise. 

The megalomaniac in the White House openly admires  and leads the biggest string of  bully boys around the world and yet Wayne dismisses  an analysis that examines  how he could pull a State of Emergency and basically do what he wants. Nothing to see here.


----------



## basilio

More coups in the US.
 
* Republicans are staging mini-coups across the US *
Lawrence Douglas

An 11th-hour tactic in Wisconsin is an attack on progressive causes and the integrity of the electoral process
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ublicans-are-staging-mini-coups-across-the-us


* North Carolina election still undecided amid absentee ballot fraud inquiry *
The state board of elections has refused to certify the Republican candidate’s narrow victory in the ninth congressional district

_The executive director of the North Carolina Republican Party says he’s open to a new election if allegations of absentee ballot fraud in the state’s ninth Congressional district prove true. 


“This has shaken us to the core,” executive director Dallas Woodhouse told CNN. 


He said he was so upset after watching coverage of the controversy that he threw up._

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-still-undecided-amid-absentee-ballot-inquiry


----------



## wayneL

How do you think I know it's a joke if I don't read it bas? 

Yet another mistake in logic from you.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> How do you think I know it's a joke if I don't read it bas?
> 
> Yet another mistake in logic from you.




Ah The Joker awakes.  
Logic is wasted on you Wayne. You can't see it. You don't use it. You repeatedly deny it. 
It's just a word you throw around for a good look.


----------



## wayneL

We should get on twitter so you can get even more childish bas. What your handle there?


----------



## Knobby22




----------



## basilio

Bit of fun with the funereal of George Bush.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Bit of fun with the funereal of George Bush.





This one's also funny.


----------



## sptrawler

Trump seems to be trying to force companies to manufacture in the U.S, instead of offshoring to cheap labour Countries.
The posters on here, who bag him, seem to want the same thing.
IMO it just shows how easily people's reasoning is manipulated by the media.
Just my opinion and I personally don't give a rat's ar$e about American politics.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Trump seems to be trying to force companies to manufacture in the U.S, instead of offshoring to cheap labour Countries.
> The posters on here, who bag him, seem to want the same thing.
> IMO it just shows how easily people's reasoning is manipulated by the media.
> Just my opinion and I personally don't give a rat's ar$e about American politics.




He appear to be doing it, but like most things he does, it's just full of crap.

He doesn't care where things are made. He only say he cares. I mean, his Trump branded stuff are made overseas, no in 'merka. Even the banners and posters for his 2020 campaign are made in China.

GM just closed a few plants in the US of A. Right after his son in law, and boy hidden genius, made a deal with Canada and Mexico.

Now, if he gives a damn about American workers, he's a really bad deal maker if right after he signed the "free trade" deal GM shut up shop, fired some 15,000 yanks and move to Mexico.


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> He appear to be doing it, but like most things he does, it's just full of crap.
> 
> He doesn't care where things are made. He only say he cares. I mean, his Trump branded stuff are made overseas, no in 'merka. Even the banners and posters for his 2020 campaign are made in China.
> 
> GM just closed a few plants in the US of A. Right after his son in law, and boy hidden genius, made a deal with Canada and Mexico.
> 
> Now, if he gives a damn about American workers, he's a really bad deal maker if right after he signed the "free trade" deal GM shut up shop, fired some 15,000 yanks and move to Mexico.



And everyone else was different?
The media has a lot to answer for. IMO
The World is full of Muppets, but I probably lead the brigade. Lol

We just need it to go back to how it was pre Trump, it was so much better then. Lol

Everyone was on the slide, but we were hugging each other, and telling each other it will get better.
Great plot for a movie.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> And everyone else was different?
> The media has a lot to answer for. IMO
> The World is full of Muppets, but I probably lead the brigade. Lol
> 
> We just need it to go back to how it was pre Trump, it was so much better then. Lol
> 
> Everyone was on the slide, but we were hugging each other, and telling each other it will get better.
> Great plot for a movie.




Yes, yes. They are at how they were under the other presidents. We non-Yanks aren't though. See how rude Trump is to our governors, and other governors of other US colonies around the world?

The mark of a great leader is to talk bs out of both of their mouth. Trump could talk out of only one side, badly. 

See how Obama started droning the crap out of every suspect all over the world? Nobel Peace Prize winner that one. Cracking jokes about boys dating his daughters oughta be careful, he got drones. 

See how Bush Jr. started rendition, up the CIA black op sites? Torture and imprison people without charge for years or decade? "We torture some folks".. [sombre look]... There's some really bad guys at Guantanamo, maybe some innocent guy... ah fark it, let's lock them all up anyway 'cause I don't want to deal with it. Constitutional scholar, everybody.

What did Trump do? The same. But he added... let's also kill their families.   You don't say that Donald! (and we kinda kid that with drones anyway... killing their family, relatives, the neighbourhood, their dogs too). 

Or Billy Clinton... privatise prisons; three strikes rule putting drug pushers and petty criminals into prison for years and years; gutted social welfare programmes that pay a few bucks to mainly poor starving kids and seniors. Gotta show them the dignity of work; keeping our welfare system honest blah blah. 

I could go on but meh... let's watching the weekend's protest in France.


----------



## basilio

Clear eyed and hard edged Luu. Very uncomfortable ..


----------



## basilio

The chess board is looking stark for  Donald Trump.  More fall out from Cohen  and Manifort testimony .  More outright lies from the Liar-in-Chief denying the testimonial drops him deeper in the merde.

 09:34 
*Cohen sentencing memo: key quotes*


Some key quotes from the Cohen sentencing memo, filed by federal prosecutors in New York:


“But the crimes committed by Cohen were more serious than his submission allows and were marked by a pattern of deception that permeated his professional life (and was evidently hidden from the friends and family members who wrote on his behalf).”
*“He was motivated ... by personal greed, and repeatedly used his power and influence for deceptive ends. Now he seeks extraordinary leniency* – a sentence of no jail time – based principally on his rose-colored view of the seriousness of the crimes; his claims to a sympathetic personal history; and his provision of certain information to law enforcement.”

“While Cohen – as his own submission makes clear – already enjoyed a privileged life, his desire for even greater wealth and influence precipitated an extensive course of criminal conduct.”
*“While many Americans who desired a particular outcome to the election knocked on doors, toiled at phone banks, or found any number of other legal ways to make their voices heard, Cohen sought to influence the election from the shadows. He did so by orchestrating secret and illegal payments to silence two women who otherwise would have made public their alleged extramarital affairs with Individual-1 [Trump].”*
“Cohen clouded a process that Congress has painstakingly sought to keep transparent. *The sentence imposed should reflect the seriousness of Cohen’s brazen violations* of the election laws and attempt to counter the public cynicism that may arise when individuals like Cohen act as if the political process belongs to the rich and powerful.”
“Cohen’s submission suggests that this was but a brief error in judgment. Not so. Cohen knew exactly where the line was, and he chose deliberately and repeatedly to cross it.”
* “After cheating the IRS for years, lying to banks and to Congress, and seeking to criminally influence the Presidential election, Cohen’s decision to plead guilty – rather than seek a pardon for his manifold crimes – does not make him a hero.”*
More details here:

*  Cohen made contact with Russian to set up Trump-Putin meeting, Mueller reveals *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...pdates-russia-investigation-us-politics-today


----------



## Darc Knight

Never underestimate Donald Trump Bas.
You've watched Silence of the Lambs etc. Take away the murdering and the cannibalism etc and you have a similar evil genius.


----------



## basilio

Darc Knight said:


> Never underestimate Donald Trump Bas.
> You've watched Silence of the Lambs etc. Take away the murdering and the cannibalism etc and you have a similar evil genius.




Absolutely not DK.  That is why I posted the article from the Atlantic which examined what Donald Trump could do if he called a State of Emergency.

I believe there is nothing he wouldn't do to save his skin. He has trashed every Presidential protocol to date.  There is nothing left to lose if he is in Checkmate by sweeping off the board and declaring he is the Winner.


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> Absolutely not DK.  That is why I posted the article from the Atlantic which examined what Donald Trump could do if he called a State of Emergency.
> 
> I believe there is nothing he wouldn't do to save his skin. He has trashed every Presidential protocol to date.  There is nothing left to lose if he is in Checkmate by sweeping off the board and declaring he is the Winner.




I think the key is the GOP. So long as they see him as capable of doing their bidding, he has a chance of surviving. But if the GOP start to see him as a liability, it is all over.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> Clear eyed and hard edged Luu. Very uncomfortable ..




I'm getting really old  

But then I've always been an old guy. This teenage neighbour in the refugee camp gave me a nick name: Old man Luu. I was only 8


----------



## Darc Knight

" Asked how his relationship with Mr Trump had gone off the rails, Mr Tillerson said it might have reflected what he saw as his obligation to tell the President that he could not do certain things because they were illegal or would violate US treaties.

"I'd have to say to him, well Mr President, I understand what you want to do, but you can't do it that way. It violates the law, it violates treaty … you know, he got really frustrated."

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-08/trump-opens-fire-on-dumb-as-a-rock-rex-tillerson/10596638


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> " Asked how his relationship with Mr Trump had gone off the rails, Mr Tillerson said it might have reflected what he saw as his obligation to tell the President that he could not do certain things because they were illegal or would violate US treaties.
> 
> "I'd have to say to him, well Mr President, I understand what you want to do, but you can't do it that way. It violates the law, it violates treaty … you know, he got really frustrated."
> 
> https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-08/trump-opens-fire-on-dumb-as-a-rock-rex-tillerson/10596638




To which Trump replied: "I am the Law! Aren't I?"

Bloody Rex, for such a smart guy he ought to know the president likes yes-man and pretty blonde around him.


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> I think the key is the GOP. So long as they see him as capable of doing their bidding, he has a chance of surviving. But if the GOP start to see him as a liability, it is all over.




CNN agrees with me on this.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/07/...blican-party-turn-on-trump-zelizer/index.html


----------



## basilio

I wonder...
What would happen if Rex Tillerman and many of the other people sacked by Trump decide to do a series of interviews about how the Trump administration worked (or didn't work )? They could be broadcast across all the media rather than one network. A collaborative effort.

They basically just decide that the countries interest and their self respect needed to come ahead of Donald Trump.
It would be unprecedented but  the behaviour of this President has also been totally unprecedented.

Perhaps this would be sufficient to finally turn the GOP on Donald Trump before he burns them all.


----------



## bellenuit

What hasn't got much attention in the Australian media today is that Trump's own justice department (not Mueller) implicated him in a felony yesterday. Skip to the 3:50 mark.


----------



## bellenuit

*Prosecutors’ Narrative Is Clear: Trump Defrauded Voters. But What Does It Mean?*

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/us/politics/trump-mueller-cohen-manafort.html


----------



## bellenuit

The Russian connections are starting to become clearer...


----------



## Darc Knight

Anyone think all the instability Trump causes is the reason for the Markets lacking confidence? Not just the trade wars etc but the lack of confidence in his integrity flows elsewhere.


----------



## SirRumpole

Darc Knight said:


> Anyone think all the instability Trump causes is the reason for the Markets lacking confidence? Not just the trade wars etc but the lack of confidence in his integrity flows elsewhere.




The markets probably think he will be impeached sooner or later, and the US will be heading into a policy black hole with no one knowing what is going on.

Fear is taking over from greed.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> Anyone think all the instability Trump causes is the reason for the Markets lacking confidence? Not just the trade wars etc but the lack of confidence in his integrity flows elsewhere.




There's the threat of the US gov't shutdown next few days if Trump don't get $5B for his wall. If they go to shutdown, federal employees will either work for no pay or send home. That should work out well for the xmas retail, general paying the bills kinda economic stuff.

There's also the Yellow Vest protests spreading across Europe. The French plebs kinda put a dent on the Xmas shopping/tourism business back a couple billions Euro so far. Macron was forced to promise he'll not steal so much from them... at least not that directly anyway, I mean, come on... he should know that you tax them plebs by cutting their "entitlements" and "subsidies"... luxury stuff like discount travel passes for school kids and pensioners. 

Then there's the trade war with China. Though that's just a tax on US consumers and a way to force Beijing to open up its financial/banking industries to US innovation. 

Basically, the masses have little to no cash. They've maxed out their credit cards. Property prices have been dropping, driving home the illusory wealth being just debt and more debt... So not a whole lot of demand for anything beside them luxury yachts and Hermes handbags kinda goods.

Buckle up Batman. IT's gonna get real ugly, real soon.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> The markets probably think he will be impeached sooner or later, and the US will be heading into a policy black hole with no one knowing what is going on.
> 
> Fear is taking over from greed.




Heard that Trump's former National Security Advisor Gen. Flynn agreed to help the FBI in their investigation to reduced sentences. 

Rumour has it he already told the FBI that boy genius Kushner ordered Flynn to do those things that got him into trouble with the FBI in the first place.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> The markets probably think he will be impeached sooner or later, and the US will be heading into a policy black hole with no one knowing what is going on.
> 
> Fear is taking over from greed.



There will be no impeachment.

I also don't think you know what impeachment actually means.

Additionally, any attempt would be political suicide for the Democrats. And I don't even think the Democrats are that stupid


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> There will be no impeachment.
> 
> I also don't think you know what impeachment actually means.
> 
> Additionally, any attempt would be political suicide for the Democrats. And I don't even think the Democrats are that stupid



You have to give Trump one thing, he has balls, they have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at him and he is still sticking it up China.
He reminds me of a policeman, everyone hates them, yet they still keep turning up to do a thankless job. People only like them, when they realise they need them.
Just my opinion, and I'll be told it's worth what I charge for it.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> You have to give Trump one thing, he has balls, they have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at him and he is still sticking it up China.




Any thoughts that sticking up China could be the cause of the stock market crash ?


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Any thoughts that sticking up China could be the cause of the stock market crash ?



Does that really matter, in the scheme of things?
Or do you just sit back, and let companies send manufacturing to where the cheapest labour is. 
Then let them reverse engineer your technology, and sell your product in a different wrapper for half the price, back to you.
While we sit back and complain that we are losing our first World economy.
Well actually we do exactly that, I wonder who is really upset with Trump?
Wouldn't be the 'powers that be', would it?
Who has the most to lose, it isn't the U.S worker, it could be the businesses making mega bucks off shore, it could also be China unless they come to some sort of agreement.
Just my opinion as usual.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Well actually we do exactly that, I wonder who is really upset with Trump?




Everyone with a pension fund or hoping to retire on share earnings.

But yes, China is ripping everyone off. Is there a better way to handle it ? Don't know. 

I sort of think that there is going to be a split between the West and Russia/China in trading terms because it's untenable trusting China because everything they do has political/defence/military purposes. But Trump shows no signs of trying to forge a Western alliance against China, it's just America first and stuff everyone else.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Everyone with a pension fund or hoping to retire on share earnings.




They have a lot more to worry about from silly Billy, than from the stock market correction.

The stock market will come back, what Billy takes off them won't.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> I sort of think that there is going to be a split between the West and Russia/China in trading terms because it's untenable trusting China because everything they do has political/defence/military purposes. But Trump shows no signs of trying to forge a Western alliance against China, it's just America first and stuff everyone else.




The biggest problem for the West is, China is taking the Wests manufacturing base and Russia is supplying Europe with its fuel.
It won't end well, unless someone like Trump, calls it as it is.
There is a lot of money to be lost by businesses, having to return manufacturing to the U.S, but the U.S will be a basket case like us unless they do.
Also having an alliance with a nation, that relies on the the opposition for their energy supply, is fraught with danger. IMO


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Does that really matter, in the scheme of things?
> Or do you just sit back, and let companies send manufacturing to where the cheapest labour is.
> Then let them reverse engineer your technology, and sell your product in a different wrapper for half the price, back to you.
> While we sit back and complain that we are losing our first World economy.
> Well actually we do exactly that, I wonder who is really upset with Trump?
> Wouldn't be the 'powers that be', would it?
> Who has the most to lose, it isn't the U.S worker, it could be the businesses making mega bucks off shore, it could also be China unless they come to some sort of agreement.
> Just my opinion as usual.




Funny enough I was listening to one of Chomsky's early 90s talk where he discusses US corporations offshoring of jobs through NAFTA and other "Free Trade" treaties. 

That is, US (western) corporations and their owners do not see themselves as "Americans" or "Australians" or whatever. They're capitalists and the whole of the world is theirs to play with. Especially so after the collapse of the Soviet Union where Western corporations move into Eastern Europe and set about enslaving their workers.

There's the Mexicans just south of the US borders; the richer Western Europeans move East... then the rise of the Asian tigers, the Chinese opening up in the late 80s. 

It's all to chase cheap labour, lax environmental protection, tax and all that bad stuff holding back progress (and profit). 

What the yanks didn't count on was China not willing to sell out their national interests. I mean, the comrades got families who want to be billionaires too. 

With enough cash and capital; plenty of JVs and partnership where tech can be gleaned and improved then Sino-fied; with 1B+ peasants the comrades better find work for as there's not enough prison (like the US) to lock them all up... China is too independent to take orders. Hence this trade war in hope of getting them to change their mind.

Saw a US 60 Minutes on Huawei where this American, from memory, CEO of a small time IT/internet company awarded Huawei the install its 4G system. He got a visit from the FBI, saying he should have used American made hardware for security etc. 

He said Americans don't make these stuff anymore. Only 5 companies in the world makes them; two are Chinese... and theirs the cheapest and fastest.

Huawei is the world's largest mobile manufacturer; it has the best 5G technology in the world. Other non-US aligned countries loading up on it. 

As to intelligence gathering... I'm sure all tech companies leave a few backdoor opens for their gov't to collect data. That's how you grease the wheel of commerce right?


----------



## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Funny enough I was listening to one of Chomsky's early 90s talk where he discusses US corporations offshoring of jobs through NAFTA and other "Free Trade" treaties.
> 
> That is, US (western) corporations and their owners do not see themselves as "Americans" or "Australians" or whatever. They're capitalists and the whole of the world is theirs to play with. Especially so after the collapse of the Soviet Union where Western corporations move into Eastern Europe and set about enslaving their workers.
> 
> There's the Mexicans just south of the US borders; the richer Western Europeans move East... then the rise of the Asian tigers, the Chinese opening up in the late 80s.
> 
> It's all to chase cheap labour, lax environmental protection, tax and all that bad stuff holding back progress (and profit).
> 
> What the yanks didn't count on was China not willing to sell out their national interests. I mean, the comrades got families who want to be billionaires too.
> 
> With enough cash and capital; plenty of JVs and partnership where tech can be gleaned and improved then Sino-fied; with 1B+ peasants the comrades better find work for as there's not enough prison (like the US) to lock them all up... China is too independent to take orders. Hence this trade war in hope of getting them to change their mind.
> 
> Saw a US 60 Minutes on Huawei where this American, from memory, CEO of a small time IT/internet company awarded Huawei the install its 4G system. He got a visit from the FBI, saying he should have used American made hardware for security etc.
> 
> He said Americans don't make these stuff anymore. Only 5 companies in the world makes them; two are Chinese... and theirs the cheapest and fastest.
> 
> Huawei is the world's largest mobile manufacturer; it has the best 5G technology in the world. Other non-US aligned countries loading up on it.
> 
> As to intelligence gathering... I'm sure all tech companies leave a few backdoor opens for their gov't to collect data. That's how you grease the wheel of commerce right?



You are spot on Luu, I think the U.S is farting against thunder, China will become a law unto itself in the end.
They have the money, the motivation and a population hungry for affluence. 
The West is fat, lazy and lack appreciation.
If Trump didn't have money, he would have already been bashed into submission, you can see his missus just wants him to chuck it in.
If Trump can't get a deal organised with China, we will be in deep manure IMO.


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> You are spot on Luu, I think the U.S is farting against thunder, China will become a law unto itself in the end.
> They have the money, the motivation and a population hungry for affluence.
> The West is fat, lazy and lack appreciation.
> If Trump didn't have money, he would have already been bashed into submission, you can see his missus just wants him to chuck it in.
> If Trump can't get a deal organised with China, we will be in deep manure IMO.




China looks like it'll rule the world this 21st century. That's if we don't go nuclear anyway.

I guess they learn a lot from various failed states and empire since WWII under US influence. Seeing how they also got a few nukes, now the technology and the capital... they just do whatever the heck they want. 

You heard how Canada took Hauwei's CFO [and daughter of the founder] daughter into custody, awaiting extradition to the US for daring to cover up Huawei's sales to Iran against US sanction?

Well, China just took 3 Canadian into custody for this and that crime against the people of China. 

Soon enough they might stop importing maple syrups too 


I don't think the average Western employees are lazy or demand too much. I mean sure, we're being pay generally pretty well compare to the average Chinese labourer. But given the cost of living, barely making ends meet. 

So unless the cost of living drops like a rock, Western labour will always be more expensive than those in poorer countries. But they're not luxurious as they're made out to be.

Just saw Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 11/9. He showed how school teachers in West Virginia [?] and across many southern states there are so poorly paid they qualify for food stamps. Many take up part time work after school just to pay the bill. 

Again in one of the early 90s lecture, Chomsky was describing American infant/children being treated for malnourishment. He was predicting that the US [and I'm guessing the West] is heading towards a third world style economy and social structure where 10% of the population does pretty well and the rest are screwed.

Juding by today's stats, he was too optimistic to think that it wouldn't be as bad a the third world as the US is a very rich country with many rights having been won... But the headlines, and that Michael Moore doc... Kids and seniors going to bed hungry; some 3000 cities not having clean drinking water; failing infrastructure; systematic privatisation of everything...

The US is so corrupt it's almost on par with China. At least the Chinese peasants have a manufacturing base they can find a job that pays the bill. 

But to be fair, the yanks still have their guns and their freedom though. So a bit of organising and things might turn around.


----------



## sptrawler

Luu, it looks as though China, wants to check out possible buys in Australia.
Nothing like really going through the books.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...r-industrial-scale-theft-20181221-p50nl0.html

Maybe Donald isn't as full of BS, as they keep saying, sooner or later the penny will drop with the masses. IMO


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Luu, it looks as though China, wants to check out possible buys in Australia.
> Nothing like really going through the books.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...r-industrial-scale-theft-20181221-p50nl0.html
> 
> Maybe Donald isn't as full of BS, as they keep saying, sooner or later the penny will drop with the masses. IMO




For sure they'll hack and steal stuff. But all these are a bit overblown, in attempts to further enforce "security" and other measures to spy on us ordinary plebs and radical hippies (and some terrorists).

There's those patent database anyone can freely access. The only thing stopping people who read it from stealing the patent would be punishment. But if the comrades turn a blind eye, which they do, who's going to sue inside of China? 

And when the stolen ("studied") tech is properly hacked and trialed, bringing in the dole from domestic customers, improvements will be made and export without much noise or legal issues. At least that's what I think anyway.

But as you say... opening the books. I reckon APA was the latest big AusCo. example of welcoming the barbarians with open arms to have a looksy at the methods and operations. For a potential takeover, for sure 

Then there's all those JVs with China operations. Manufacturing in China. I heard that most of the world's drones are build in China. It's cheaper there right?

So the first couple of models were as spec by Western corporations. The enterprising Chinese partner soon enough come out with slightly modified models. Leapfrogging the old tech they were hired to build.

That's how it's done. 

And that's why some businesses, like the Japanese that I know of, would not send their engine and tech anywhere in China. 

But if you ask me... seeing how these large corporations don't pay much, if any, tax anyway... and the stuff that's stolen are patents... If the Chinese, or anyone, who could bootleg it, knock off a similar or even improved tech in return, flooding Western markets with cheaper quality goods... not really harming us peasants now does it?


----------



## DB008

*Trump signs farm bill making hemp federally legal, boosting promising NC cash crop*​
On Thursday, a group of local hemp advocates celebrated a $867 billion farm bill authorized by President Donald Trump.

The 2018 Farm Bill, a sweeping piece of legislation, bolstered farmers with the passage of The Hemp Farming Act of 2018, bipartisan legislation delisting hemp as a controlled substance and allowing for the continued growth of North Carolina’s hemp farming industry. 

"The biggest takeaway is that hemp is now classified as an agricultural commodity," said Blake Butler, Executive Director of the North Carolina Industrial Hemp Association.

Butler, who was among those celebrating after many wondered if a looming government shutdown might impact the bill's signing, has held up hemp as one of the most promising cash crops to replace tobacco in North Carolina.

That's in part what helped push the passage of a 2014 farm bill, which paved the way for states to mandate whether farmers could plant hemp as part of a Department of Agriculture-guided pilot program.

Since then, more than 400 farmers have planted it in North Carolina, with more than 50 of them in Western North Carolina. 

https://www.citizen-times.com/story...king-cbd-and-hemp-federally-legal/2385540002/​


----------



## IFocus

Lets make Hemp Great again.........


Amazing after all these years one of the best natural products finally makes it back to main stream


----------



## basilio

The US government is shutting down because Donald Trump can't get support for his "big beautiful wall". What a great Christmas present for the hundreds of thousands of people who serve the US government.

Another day in the life of a single minded sociopath.

* US government shutdown goes ahead amid deadlock over Trump's wall *

Frenetic negotiations fail to avert federal paralysis 

Shutdown will leave hundreds of thousands without pay before Christmas
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/21/trump-government-shutdown-border-wall-funding


----------



## basilio

Very insightful analysis of how dangerous Donald Trump is as President of the US.  Just where the hell do we go from here ? Will the new Defense Secretary just be another sock puppet in the Trump Cabinet ?  Hard to see another option.

* Why did Mattis resign? To issue a wake-up call to the world *
Michael H Fuchs
It’s difficult not to respect what the defense secretary did: go public with his grave concerns about the danger Trump poses to the country and world

Sat 22 Dec 2018 05.12 AEDT   Last modified on Sat 22 Dec 2018 06.34 AEDT


 

 

 
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‘The depth of Mattis’ concerns with Trump are anything but normal.’ Photograph: Leah Millis/Reuters
James Mattis just shattered the glass you only break in case of emergency.

The US secretary of defense resigned in protest over the president of the United States actively undermining “an international order that is most conducive to our security, prosperity and values”.


You don’t have to like Mattis or agree with his policies or sweep under the rug all of the times he didn’t resign when Donald Trump did something truly abhorrent. But it’s difficult not to respect that he just had the courage to do what no one else in the Trump administration has done – resign in protest and go public with his grave concerns about the danger that Trump poses to the country and the world.

That Trump is dangerous has been clear to anyone who has listened to him since the moment he descended the escalators at Trump Tower in 2015 to announce his candidacy. And Trump’s worldview – disdain for democratic allies, embrace of autocrats, and opposition to America’s role in the post-war world – has also long been clear. But the fact that Trump’s current Defense secretary felt the need to resign and let the world know about his deep-seated concerns about the president is an unprecedented event in an unprecedented presidency.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-else-had-the-courage-to-do-resign-in-protest


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## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Why did Mattis resign? To issue a wake-up call to the world




Mattis was apparently well respected among world leaders as a supporter of Western Alliances and co-operation.

His departure will send a shudder around the world and apprehension for what is to come.


----------



## basilio

Came across  a good story about General Mattis.  Gives a real perspective to the Trump situation.
*You Can't Serve Both Trump and America*
The departure of Jim Mattis is proof that you cannot have it all.

 Dec 22, 2018



Eliot A. Cohen
Professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University





Yuri Gripas / Reuters

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The story is told of Jim Mattis, when he was the commanding general at Quantico, relieving a young lance corporal on Christmas. The rest of that wintry day, those entering the front gate of the Marine base were startled to see that the sentry was a general, checking passes and waving cars through so that a young man could spend the holiday with his family. It is the kind of behavior animated by sentiments Donald Trump could not understand, and it reflected a kind of code by which he cannot live.

The president misunderstood his secretary of defense. The Jim Mattis one saw on the battlefields of Afghanistan and in the shattered cities of Iraq was not “Mad Dog,” a sobriquet he loathed, but a resolute military leader who was a reader and a thinker. Give him a copy of Marcus Aurelius’s _Meditations_, and he would compare it with the other two editions that he already owned.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...you-cant-serve-both-trump-and-america/578902/


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## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> Another day in the life of a single minded sociopath.






SirRumpole said:


> Mattis was apparently well respected among world leaders as a supporter of Western Alliances and co-operation.
> 
> His departure will send a shudder around the world and apprehension for what is to come.




On a serious note I ponder what this means for Australia.

Are we in practice now on our own so far as defence is concerned?

Do we need to be urgently building up our own military and/or forming alliances with countries other than the US?

I say that as someone opposed to war in principle but from a pragmatic perspective this would seem to be a rather major problem. The US just walked out on its allies is how I interpret the ultimate consequence of it all.

Or am I over thinking this?


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## basilio

No overthinking of this situation at all Smurf. All the worlds alliances are now fluid. Under Trump the US has made it clear it is "America First (and only..) "  (actually Trump first and only.)and that defending/protecting other countries is problematical at best.

If Trump is making any other alliances it is with right wing, authoritarian Nationalist governments like  Russia, Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Brazil,  North Korea.  With the loss of almost all the ministers and diplomats who have been attempting to shore up the old alliances it is hard to see how there won't be massive shifts in policy direction.

*America is no longer a friend of the free world. *


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## basilio

And by the way Trump has decided to throw General Mattis out a couple of months earlier than his resignation. That should herald a bracing New Year.

* Trump forces defense secretary Jim Mattis to step down two months early *

In act of payback, Trump brings departure forward to 1 January
Deputy Patrick Shanahan named in acting Pentgaon role
Ed Pilkington and Martin Pengelly in New York

Mon 24 Dec 2018 05.36 AEDT   First published on Mon 24 Dec 2018 03.59 AEDT


 

 

 

 



 
Shares
2,664

 

James Mattis. Photograph: Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg via Getty Images
Donald Trump is forcing defense secretary Jim Mattis to step down on 1 January, two months before his agreed departure, in open payback for the former Marine general’s public rebuke of the president’s decision abruptly to withdraw troops from Syria.





*  Trump stance on shutdown is 'useless' and 'puerile', senior Republican says  *
Read more
Trump issued the bombshell news in characteristic fashion: in a tweet. He announced on Sunday morning that Patrick Shanahan, the current deputy at the Pentagon, would step up at the start of the New Year. The president lauded his temporary pick to run the world’s largest military force as a man with a “long list of accomplishments”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ttis-defense-secretary-donald-trump-1-january


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## basilio

It wouldn't be Christmas if there weren't a few more totally xxxxing outrageous actions by the Idiot/Liar/Sociopath in Chief. In no particular order.

1) Jumping on a plane to Iraq to fly the flag and  infuriating all the Iraq politicians to the point they all want US troops out of the country pronto.
2)  Showing off with Navy Seals in selfies and  totally trashing all military sense by identifying them by sight, name and location. Yep exactly the sort of thing people get serious jail time for any other time
3) Big noting himself to the military by saying they will get a 10% pay increase when they never had, never will, never can.

This creature is truly a walking National, International and Intergalactical disaster.

God gives us strength..

*Trump 'accidentally reveals location and identities of US Navy Seals in Iraq*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/27/trump-iraq-location-tweet-troops-visit-revealed

*Trump misleads about military pay raises again*
*https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/26/politics/trump-misleads-military-pay-raise-again/index.html*

*Iraqi MPs unimpressed by Donald Trump's surprise visit, call for US forces to leave *
*Donald Trump's surprise visit to US forces in Iraq has left a sour taste in the mouths of local MPs, prompting calls for an end to American deployments.*

*Key points: *



*

The Iraqi parliament called for a vote to end US troop deployment

Baghdad requested US troop support to defeat IS in 2014

Mr Trump snubbed Iraqi representatives, only calling the Prime Minister
*
*Politicians from both blocs of Iraq's divided parliament called for a vote to expel US troops and promised to schedule an extraordinary session to debate the matter.*
*"Parliament must clearly and urgently express its view about the ongoing American violations of Iraqi sovereignty," said MP Salam al-Shimiri, loyal to the populist cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.*
*https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-28/iraqi-mps-tell-us-forces-to-leave-after-trump-visit/10670942*


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## luutzu

basilio said:


> It wouldn't be Christmas if there weren't a few more totally xxxxing outrageous actions by the Idiot/Liar/Sociopath in Chief. In no particular order.
> 
> 1) Jumping on a plane to Iraq to fly the flag and  infuriating all the Iraq politicians to the point they all want US troops out of the country pronto.
> 2)  Showing off with Navy Seals in selfies and  totally trashing all military sense by identifying them by sight, name and location. Yep exactly the sort of thing people get serious jail time for any other time
> 3) Big noting himself to the military by saying they will get a 10% pay increase when they never had, never will, never can.
> 
> This creature is truly a walking National, International and Intergalactical disaster.
> 
> God gives us strength..
> 
> *Trump 'accidentally reveals location and identities of US Navy Seals in Iraq*
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/27/trump-iraq-location-tweet-troops-visit-revealed
> 
> *Trump misleads about military pay raises again*
> *https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/26/politics/trump-misleads-military-pay-raise-again/index.html*
> 
> *Iraqi MPs unimpressed by Donald Trump's surprise visit, call for US forces to leave *
> *Donald Trump's surprise visit to US forces in Iraq has left a sour taste in the mouths of local MPs, prompting calls for an end to American deployments.*
> 
> *Key points: *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> The Iraqi parliament called for a vote to end US troop deployment
> 
> Baghdad requested US troop support to defeat IS in 2014
> 
> Mr Trump snubbed Iraqi representatives, only calling the Prime Minister
> *
> *Politicians from both blocs of Iraq's divided parliament called for a vote to expel US troops and promised to schedule an extraordinary session to debate the matter.*
> *"Parliament must clearly and urgently express its view about the ongoing American violations of Iraqi sovereignty," said MP Salam al-Shimiri, loyal to the populist cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.*
> *https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-28/iraqi-mps-tell-us-forces-to-leave-after-trump-visit/10670942*




Baz, you heard about Trump's withdrawing US troops from Syria, and potentially Afghanistan?

It'd be a great thing right? But nope...

Heard from RT that it's very possible Trump's pulling out the US troops to make way for privatised US mercenaries to come on in. Erik Prince, founder of BlackWater and some new TigerSwan [?] have been trying for years to lobby for his mercenaries to take over. 

Mattis was the big man standing in the way. Refusing to privatise an entire war to mercenaries. Now that he's gone and all the evil dudes are apparently still in Syria and Afghanistan...


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## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> I say that as someone opposed to war in principle but from a pragmatic perspective this would seem to be a rather major problem. The US just walked out on its allies is how I interpret the ultimate consequence of it all.
> 
> Or am I over thinking this?




Looks like the world will just have to ride Trump out and hope that sanity returns on his departure.

He doesn't seem to have any concept of the value that allies provide in the way of intelligence, mutual support etc. In the meantime we do need to up our defences imo, and this poses big challenges to a budget that is fragile and dependant on China and commodity prices.


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## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Baz, you heard about Trump's withdrawing US troops from Syria, and potentially Afghanistan?
> 
> It'd be a great thing right? But nope...
> 
> Heard from RT that it's very possible Trump's pulling out the US troops to make way for privatised US mercenaries to come on in. Erik Prince, founder of BlackWater and some new TigerSwan [?] have been trying for years to lobby for his mercenaries to take over.
> 
> Mattis was the big man standing in the way. Refusing to privatise an entire war to mercenaries. Now that he's gone and all the evil dudes are apparently still in Syria and Afghanistan...




Can't live with them, can't live without them.
It will be interesting, when the U.S finally butts out of everyone else's business.
Can't wait to see the outcome.


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## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> He doesn't seem to have any concept of the value that allies provide in the way of intelligence, mutual support etc. In the meantime we do need to up our defences imo, and this poses big challenges to a budget that is fragile and dependant on China and commodity prices.




Yes, just like the great deal the allies are giving the U.K on the Brexit.
What is their offer, thanks for your effort in the wars, but you can't keep your sovereignty. lol


----------



## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Can't live with them, can't live without them.
> It will be interesting, when the U.S finally butts out of everyone else's business.
> Can't wait to see the outcome.




Empires never really retreat or draw the line until they're forced to. Definitely not when there's so much money to be made. 

There's always been mercenaries in the military. But if it's true that Trump is pulling the US troops out to make way for privatisation of an entire war... that's something completely new.

Looks like more trade wars with China coming up. Trump's WH is discussing whether or not to sign an executive order to ban all US gov't offices from using Huawei or ZTE tech.


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## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Empires never really retreat or draw the line until they're forced to. Definitely not when there's so much money to be made.
> 
> There's always been mercenaries in the military. But if it's true that Trump is pulling the US troops out to make way for privatisation of an entire war... that's something completely new.
> 
> Looks like more trade wars with China coming up. Trump's WH is discussing whether or not to sign an executive order to ban all US gov't offices from using Huawei or ZTE tech.




Isn't it up to the Country to decide if it wants to employ private companies to protect them.
I would have thought, they would just increase their armed forces.
As for it being completely new, I don't think so, the Crusades in the middle ages had mercenaries fighting all over the middle East.
What is new, is everyone complaining about a Country fighting supposedly to help a foreign Nation, then when they say they are pulling out everyone complains about that.
I think Trump and the U.S should do exactly what everyone wants, and pull out of all conflicts.
It is about time people started reaping what they wish. IMO
It isn't as though anyone is saying thank you, to the U.S in any way or form, I think most Countries will find they rely a lot more on the U.S than the U.S relies on them.
It is a bit like kids that don't appreciate what their parents do for them. IMO
But that is an old worn out chestnut also. lol


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Isn't it up to the Country to decide if it wants to employ private companies to protect them.
> I would have thought, they would just increase their armed forces.
> As for it being completely new, I don't think so, the Crusades in the middle ages had mercenaries fighting all over the middle East.
> What is new, is everyone complaining about a Country fighting supposedly to help a foreign Nation, then when they say they are pulling out everyone complains about that.
> I think Trump and the U.S should do exactly what everyone wants, and pull out of all conflicts.
> It is about time people started reaping what they wish. IMO




Yes, true. My bad. There are instances of countries whose military are entirely mercenaries. 

Those countries tend not to last very long though. When foreign soldiers fight for a paycheck... they'll either keep on fighting to send you broke; or run and left you hanging the moment real danger come along.

Peaceniks aren't complaining about Trump withdrawal of troops and ending wars. Just that if he is planning to withdraw and privatise it to the BlackWaters... the "US" will actually be in the Middle East for another 100 years... or go broke trying.


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## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Yes, true. My bad. There are instances of countries whose military are entirely mercenaries.
> 
> Those countries tend not to last very long though. When foreign soldiers fight for a paycheck... they'll either keep on fighting to send you broke; or run and left you hanging the moment real danger come along.
> 
> Peaceniks aren't complaining about Trump withdrawal of troops and ending wars. Just that if he is planning to withdraw and privatise it to the BlackWaters... the "US" will actually be in the Middle East for another 100 years... or go broke trying.




Like I said, I can't understand why the U.S keeps doing it, they get no thanks and are actually hated for it.
Some people will say, they have a vested interest in the oil or natural resources, but in reality they can buy out a major interest in any or all of it.
This is the problem with the press IMO, they keep throwing crap endlessly eventually it becomes fact, the problem is some may not wish for the alternative they will have to endure.
I think this will all end badly, especially for us, an affluent over indulged zit on the bottom of the World. Just my opinion.


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Like I said, I can't understand why the U.S keeps doing it, they get no thanks and are actually hated for it.
> Some people will say, they have a vested interest in the oil or natural resources, but in reality they can buy out a major interest in any or all of it.
> This is the problem with the press IMO, they keep throwing crap endlessly eventually it becomes fact, the problem is some may not wish for the alternative they will have to endure.
> I think this will all end badly, especially for us, an affluent over indulged zit on the bottom of the World. Just my opinion.




When the US take over another country, the average taxpayers foot the bill.

When the country is being rule, democracies put in place, new infrastructure set up; exports and trade licenses and profit to be had.... private corporations come on in. 

Some US historian I saw said that empire never really benefit the plebs. In fact, plebs are worst of because of it. 

Military spending mean less tax dollars for social programs. It also invite blowbacks. To stop that, it require further spending on securities etc. etc.

Who does it benefit? Corporations who own the place. 

No country, no empire, ever send their troops overseas to help or liberate or hand out chocolates to the locals for nothing. 

Trump might be the few who actually believe it.


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## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> When the US take over another country, the average taxpayers foot the bill.
> 
> When the country is being rule, democracies put in place, new infrastructure set up; exports and trade licenses and profit to be had.... private corporations come on in.
> 
> Some US historian I saw said that empire never really benefit the plebs. In fact, plebs are worst of because of it.
> 
> Military spending mean less tax dollars for social programs. It also invite blowbacks. To stop that, it require further spending on securities etc. etc.
> 
> Who does it benefit? Corporations who own the place.
> 
> No country, no empire, ever send their troops overseas to help or liberate or hand out chocolates to the locals for nothing.
> 
> Trump might be the few who actually believe it.



Well I don't think Australia suffered too much from British colonisation.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see, what the alternative presents.

I definitely think the current expectation, is going to be burst.


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Well I don't think Australia suffered too much from British colonisation.
> 
> Like I said, it will be interesting to see, what the alternative presents.
> 
> I definitely think the current expectation, is going to be burst.




Which Australia didn't suffer?


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## sptrawler

Which ever wasn't colonised by the Dutch, Portuguese or Spanish.


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Which ever wasn't colonised by the Dutch, Portuguese or Spanish.




Don't take this as blame or such. I mean, history are full of ugly genocidal crazies... from all civilisations and races. I'm just trying to be as historically accurate as possible. 

Historically speaking, Australia, NZ, the US, Canada, Israel... these were what historians would call colonial-settler countries. i.e. the natives pretty much disappear.

The other colonies were simply subjugated but not settled. The language and certain things were changed and standardised a bit, but the natives were kept enslaved 'cause it serve the imperial master better that way. 

In being enslaved, but alive, people see the suffering. In being dead and gone... a couple generations later and memories of it fade. 

All countries rise from such acts. Being the 21st century and more civilised, let's not repeat it though.


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## sptrawler

luutzu said:


> Don't take this as blame or such. I mean, history are full of ugly genocidal crazies... from all civilisations and races. I'm just trying to be as historically accurate as possible.
> 
> Historically speaking, Australia, NZ, the US, Canada, Israel... these were what historians would call colonial-settler countries. i.e. the natives pretty much disappear.
> 
> The other colonies were simply subjugated but not settled. The language and certain things were changed and standardised a bit, but the natives were kept enslaved 'cause it serve the imperial master better that way.
> 
> In being enslaved, but alive, people see the suffering. In being dead and gone... a couple generations later and memories of it fade.
> 
> All countries rise from such acts. Being the 21st century and more civilised, let's not repeat it though.



That is the weirdest thing I have seen you write.
Historically speaking, have you read about the conquistadors?
I really don't think you understand the issues, lets not debate this further.


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## Junior

Trump has just overseen the worst Dow Jones performance in 10 years.


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## sptrawler

Junior said:


> Anyone with basic experience following stock markets knows that whoever the President/leader/prime minister of the day is has little bearing on where the Index is at.
> 
> Again, sheer arrogance and outright rubbish from trump bragging that he is somehow responsible for record highs in US markets. Market was consistently hitting record highs under Obama before trump came into office.
> 
> Market is being driven higher by Tech giants who derive much of their growth outside of the US anyway.




Come on Junior, how about a bit of consistency. Your post from Sept 21.
When the market goes up it is despite Trump, when the market goes down, it is because of him.
Just shows how analysis is subjective.


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> Come on Junior, how about a bit of consistency. Your post from Sept 21.
> When the market goes up it is despite Trump, when the market goes down, it is because of him.
> Just shows how analysis is subjective.




If you think so


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## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> If you think so



Just doing my memory excercises, for the day.


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## Junior

sptrawler said:


> Come on Junior, how about a bit of consistency. Your post from Sept 21.
> When the market goes up it is despite Trump, when the market goes down, it is because of him.
> Just shows how analysis is subjective.




My comment is tongue in cheek.  If Trump wants credit for rising markets, he can take responsibility for falling markets!


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## sptrawler

Junior said:


> My comment is tongue in cheek.  If Trump wants credit for rising markets, he can take responsibility for falling markets!



I can see why you are a gifted financial adviser.


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## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Historically speaking, have you read about the conquistadors?




Why do the conquistadors get such a bad rap ? Simple SP. They were the "Spanish" the English rivals., the enemy.
Yep they were brutal and destructive. But don't close your eyes to the history of English speaking colonization or pretend it wasn't equally destructive of the people they subjugated.


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## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Why do the conquistadors get such a bad rap ? Simple SP. They were the "Spanish" the English rivals., the enemy.
> Yep they were brutal and destructive. But don't close your eyes to the history of English speaking colonization or pretend it wasn't equally destructive of the people they subjugated.



That is the unfortunate thing about being invaded/occupied, it has happened to most Countries at one time or another.
I will say, most Countries that where colonised by the British, appear to have faired better than those colonised by the Spanish & French. I may be wrong and I'm sure you will correct me if I am.


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## basilio

sptrawler said:


> I will say, most Countries that where colonised by the British, appear to have faired better than those colonised by the Spanish & French. I may be wrong and I'm sure you will correct me if I am.




Pretty sweeping statement isn't it SP ? One wouldn't want to unpack it in terms of eras, countries, impacts on particular people.
It might also be a challenge to verify it when/where much of the evidence of atrocities has been buried, ignored or forgotten.
And finally of course it is so much easier to see (or even create..) atrocities committed by other countries when one wants to divert attention from your own actions and take the high moral ground...
I don't see any cause for pride in the way the English subjugated all those red areas on the Empire. I'd say exactly the same about the Belgians, French, Dutch, whoever.
Obviously it made England one of the wealthiest countries of the early 20th Century and enriched other colonial powers as well. Perhaps that is sufficient to say it was a good thing ?


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## sptrawler

Yes Bas it is a huge subject and I'm quite sure the story isn't finished yet, but as humans mature and move on through time, hopefully they will become more compassionate.
It is difficult to apply an objective opinion on past behaviour, there must have been some horrific things to live through, for all concerned. Even our historic record, is written in a mostly subjective manner.
With regard the sweeping statement, I was making general reference to the infra structure installed, for some reason the British seemed to leave behind a reasonable backbone of civil work. I doubt it was put in for the natives benefit, but they, in a lot of cases have built on that infrastructure.


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## wayneL

Junior said:


> My comment is tongue in cheek.  If Trump wants credit for rising markets, he can take responsibility for falling markets!



But then there is The Fed.

Any upward  movement in interest rate were always gonna trash equities


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## luutzu

sptrawler said:


> Come on Junior, how about a bit of consistency. Your post from Sept 21.
> When the market goes up it is despite Trump, when the market goes down, it is because of him.
> Just shows how analysis is subjective.




Well, if you think about it... the market would have been all alright if Trump does nothing. When he do things, like a trade war, trillion dollar tax cuts, put gov't in "partial shutdown"...


----------



## Junior

wayneL said:


> But then there is The Fed.
> 
> Any upward  movement in interest rate were always gonna trash equities




The Fed have been very consistent in their intention to raise rates.  They have been raising very gradually, and provided warning to markets well in advance.  Trump would have been well aware of this when he first took office.


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## wayneL

Junior said:


> The Fed have been very consistent in their intention to raise rates.  They have been raising very gradually, and provided warning to markets well in advance.  Trump would have been well aware of this when he first took office.



Okay, apart from your ideological imperatives,what's the
Fundamentals?


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## Junior

wayneL said:


> Okay, apart from your ideological imperatives,what's the
> Fundamentals?




eh?

I'm just noting, that Trump claimed personal credit for stocks moving higher, now he wants to blame others for stocks moving lower.   

He is an imbecile.


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## wayneL

Junior said:


> eh?
> 
> I'm just noting, that Trump claimed personal credit for stocks moving higher, now he wants to blame others for stocks moving lower.
> 
> He is an imbecile.



I think you may have just been hoist by your own petard there, bro.


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## sptrawler

Of course U.S stocks are falling, as interest rates in the U.S are rising.
What is the average yield on the Dow, about 2.5%?
The Fed has raised interest rates and are going to continue raising them, because the economy is running hot and they are concerned about inflation.
U.S unemployment is down to 3.7%, the lowest in 50 years, is Trump allowed to take any credit for that?
Even Black unemployment is the lowest since records began.

Why wouldn't investors be moving out of equities and into safe high interest investments?

I'm sure if the interest rates in Australia, return to the long term average of around 7%, there will be plenty of people moving out of equities. Especially if the franking credit and capital gain changes come into being.


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## basilio

This was an interesting analysis of how far Donald Trump follows the Putin propaganda line.

*Why Is Trump Spouting Russian Propaganda?*
The president’s endorsement of the U.S.S.R.’s invasion of Afghanistan echoes a narrative promoted by Vladimir Putin.

 10:28 AM ET

Donald Trump speaks during a Cabinet meeting on January 2, 2019.Jim Young / Reuters

 Share
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It was only one moment in a 90-minute stream of madness.

President Donald Trump convened a Cabinet meeting, at which he invited all its members to praise him for his stance on the border wall and the government shutdown. There’s always a lively competition to see which member of the Cabinet can grovel most abjectly. The newcomer Matthew Whitaker may be only the acting attorney general, but despite—or perhaps because of—that tentative status, he delivered one of the strongest entries, saluting the president for sacrificing his Christmas and New Year’s holiday for the public good, and contrasting that to members of Congress who had left Washington during the Trump-created crisis.

But that was not the crazy part.

The crazy part came during the president’s monologue defending his decision to withdraw all 2,000 U.S. troops from Syria and 7,000 from Afghanistan, about half the force in that country.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...t-endorsed-ussrs-invasion-afghanistan/579361/


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## sptrawler

Sounds like you are assuming Putin isn't worth quoting, or is some sort of fool, just because we don't like someone doesn't make them stupid.
Far from it, I would argue, it supports the converse of the argument.
It is becoming the norm in Australia, to deride and ridicule anyone who doesn't follow the media line, it is actually dumbing down our population. IMO
It is all based on the premise, that the person with the most knowledge, is the person writing the media article.
When in most cases, it is only the reporters opinion and interpretation, of the available information.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like you are assuming Putin isn't worth quoting, or is some sort of fool, just because we don't like someone doesn't make them stupid.




Nothing to do with just saying that anything  Putin  says is wrong SP.  
If you read the story you would have seen what actually happened in Afganisatan with the Soviets and why Putin was trying to create a new version.
The interesting question though was
"How did Donald Trump get this Putin version anyway ?"


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> "How did Donald Trump get this Putin version anyway ?"




Maybe when he was talking to him at a meeting, they have had a few. Or maybe he just rang him, because he finds that he isn't a muppet, unlike the press that wants to make stories out of anything.
How come Leyton Hewitt and his wife haven't broken up, the press has been calling it at least three times a year, when circulation is down.


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## Darc Knight

I heard some National Security Advisor on the wireless yesterday stating that Putin's Russia and China are (obviously) the World's biggest threats in their quest of dominance. I hope Trump firstly knows what he's doing and secondly isn't exercising his Presidential powers in the same sociopathic manner he ran his businesses ..... or we're all stuffed.

Sometimes it "takes a Wolf to catch a Wolf", but geez, it's a worry.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> aybe when he was talking to him at a meeting, they have had a few. Or maybe he just rang him, because he finds that he isn't a muppet, unlike the press that wants to make stories out of anything.




Yeah... So we (you) are happy to have Donald Trump offer his take on Afghan politics from Putin ?  Ignore any other National Security advice? Ignore  learning some basic history ?


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## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Yeah... So we (you) are happy to have Donald Trump offer his take on Afghan politics from Putin ?  Ignore any other National Security advice? Ignore  learning some basic history ?



I wouldn't have a clue where Trump gets his advice from, nor do I care, I have no personal contact with him so I'm sure he doesn't care what I think either.
It is a bit like the housing and stock market, do you buy and sell, dependent on what you read in the SMH?
Or do you make a judgement, based on your personal reasoning, of all the facts from various sources and observations?


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> I wouldn't have a clue where Trump gets his advice from, nor do I care,



Really and truly ?  Trump  is the Prez of the most powerful country on earth.  He has his tiny fingers on the biggest red buttons.  He has and exercises the capacity to make the most far reaching decisions of almost any person on earth.

All the evidence to date is that Donald Trump gets his views from Fox news. That he ignores his advisors, staff and agencies if they don't agree with him/Fox news. And now he seems to be parroting quite self serving political commentary from Vladimar Putin.

And your quite relaxed about that..   I suppose if your views are representative of enough American people than we will truly get what we deserve.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/4...-no-separation-between-fox-news-and-the-trump


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Really and truly ?  Trump  is the Prez of the most powerful country on earth.  He has his tiny fingers on the biggest red buttons.  He has and exercises the capacity to make the most far reaching decisions of almost any person on earth.




And, what you think he reads ASF, or takes any notice of you or me, even the people on here don't.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> And, what you think he reads ASF, or takes any notice of you or me, even the people on here don't.



Nah SP.  I was just exploring *your judgement* on how Donald Trump makes decisions. I suppose I was also drawing a comparison with how millions of US voters might think. If enough people truly don't give a stuff how the President does his job then they can't complain about the outcome can they ?


----------



## sptrawler

If you think Trump is funny, wait until silly Billy gets in, that will give you something to talk about.IMO
Hopefully nobody complains about what they get.


----------



## sptrawler

Bas, I learnt many years ago, people don't want to explore my judgement, just bash me over the head with theirs. Lol


----------



## Junior

sptrawler said:


> If you think Trump is funny, wait until silly Billy gets in, that will give you something to talk about.IMO
> Hopefully nobody complains about what they get.




Billy seems far more willing to listen to, and accept the advice of the people around him.  This is a great trait for a leader in my view, as they have to be across so many vast and complex areas of policy.  Trump is the total opposite in this respect.  He has a huge ego, ignores advice and makes decision based on his 'gut' and Fox News.

I'm not saying for a second I support Labor policies or Bill Shorten, but at least he doesn't have the stupidity and arrogance to think he know better than everyone around him.


----------



## Smurf1976

Junior said:


> I'm not saying for a second I support Labor policies or Bill Shorten, but at least he doesn't have the stupidity and arrogance to think he know better than everyone around him.



Very true and worth repeating.

If you look back through history then if there's one element about successful PM's or state premiers in Australia it's that they weren't know all's but were instead willing to observe and listen to those with knowledge.


----------



## wayneL

Oh Lord, we truly have entered the twilight zone.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Oh Lord, we truly have entered the twilight zone.




Meaning ?


----------



## wayneL

Horace, Bill a listener?

Mark my words,  we will have our own #GiletsJaune within 5 years.


----------



## basilio

Junior said:


> Billy seems far more willing to listen to, and accept the advice of the people around him.  This is a great trait for a leader in my view, as they have to be across so many vast and complex areas of policy.  Trump is the total opposite in this respect.  He has a huge ego, ignores advice and makes decision based on his 'gut' and Fox News.
> .




That is bad enough. The fact that many of his supporters still follow his path as irrational and dangerous as it is, is a bigger problem.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> That is bad enough. The fact that many of his supporters still follow his path as irrational and dangerous as it is, is a bigger problem.




Do you mean Shorten or Trump ? (or both)


----------



## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> That is bad enough. The fact that many of his supporters still follow his path as irrational and dangerous as it is, is a bigger problem.



Which one (Bill or Trump)?

Bill Shorten - I don't agree with many of his ideas but he seems the least bad option really. The "coalition" is beyond taking seriously at this point and there's nobody else with a realistic chance of forming government. It's Billy or bust really, quite likely both in that order.

Trump - An incredibly dangerous man who, as sociopaths generally do, has one by one removed all moderating influences and other barriers thus giving himself for practical purposes ultimate power. That almost certainly is going to end badly.

An observation in Australia with potential relevance to the US is that of the states feeling that they need to go their own way. The Victorian government's deal with China was one example but there are others. The national government is so ineffective at practically everything that everyone from the states to private companies are finding ways around them as the only means of getting anything done. Far from leading, they've become an outright hindrance. 

I do wonder where that ends up in both Australia and the US? Constitutional change? An outright breakup? Some hybrid model?


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> Bill Shorten - I don't agree with many of his ideas but he seems the least bad option really.




That just about sums it up perfectly. IMO


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> Bas, I learnt many years ago, people don't want to explore my judgement, just bash me over the head with theirs. Lol




But we tried your ideas Homer, it's just  the mass starvations sorta took the gloss off 18th century laissez faire society.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> But we tried your ideas Homer, it's just  the mass starvations sorta took the gloss off 18th century laissez faire society.





If at first you don't succeed... try and try and try again until the plebs got sick of pitchforks and guillotines.

Trump's demand for a partial wall is putting a few hundred thousand public servants out of work. A further 1m or so sensitive/security employees are forced to work without pay. 

When the gov't finally decided to stop playing with these worker's lives, let's hope the back pay also is granted and also include the interests they'd have to repay from lenders.

I mean, about 60% of Americans do not have $1000 for an emergency... chances are bills aren't being paid and essentials are being cut back.

But ey, what's a couple million lives security when it's national security and all them drugs and bad brown people stuff you're trying to stop with a wall they can just climb over.


----------



## Smurf1976

luutzu said:


> Trump's demand for a partial wall is putting a few hundred thousand public servants out of work. A further 1m or so sensitive/security employees are forced to work without pay.



It will only be a matter of time until the "sensitive / security" employees demand payment or walk off the job I expect.

There will come a point where their own bank, landlord, utility company etc demands payment and some union or similar gets involved.

Then the brown stuff really will hit the fan.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> It will only be a matter of time until the "sensitive / security" employees demand payment or walk off the job I expect.
> 
> There will come a point where their own bank, landlord, utility company etc demands payment and some union or similar gets involved.
> 
> Then the brown stuff really will hit the fan.



Just a case of seeing who blinks first.


----------



## Humid

Thank god they don’t have easy access to firearms


----------



## luutzu

Smurf1976 said:


> It will only be a matter of time until the "sensitive / security" employees demand payment or walk off the job I expect.
> 
> There will come a point where their own bank, landlord, utility company etc demands payment and some union or similar gets involved.
> 
> Then the brown stuff really will hit the fan.




I think there are laws saying that they can't. Else they'd be fired. Some guy turned up for work, expecting to leave at 5pm but due to other staff being "furlough" he have to stay until next morning to stand in.

Heard some lawyers/union is suing the gov't for forced work without pay. IT's been about 2 weeks now? It's only Xmas, New Year... who needs money around that time anyway.


----------



## luutzu

Humid said:


> Thank god they don’t have easy access to firearms




Or their jobs involve looking out for bad guys with guns.

Talk about security risks. I'd like my security, air traffic controllers worrying about others safety while wondering how they're doing to feed their family or pay the bills.


----------



## SirRumpole

luutzu said:


> I think there are laws saying that they can't. Else they'd be fired. Some guy turned up for work, expecting to leave at 5pm but due to other staff being "furlough" he have to stay until next morning to stand in.
> 
> Heard some lawyers/union is suing the gov't for forced work without pay. IT's been about 2 weeks now? It's only Xmas, New Year... who needs money around that time anyway.




This sort of thing happens a lot I believe. Things get sorted and the employees get back pay and overtime eventually after being forced to beg on the streets for daily food.


----------



## sptrawler

There seems to be a big queue of people trying to get to the U.S, some on here should take up writing, they have a flair for fantasy.


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> There seems to be a big queue of people trying to get to the U.S, some on here should take up writing, they have a flair for fantasy.




Yes, but most of those Mexicans are already used to starvation, slave labour and crooks.

Productivity must be an issue. I wonder what sort of mistakes are being made by those workers worried about their financial situation and family etc. China and Russia would be loving this.


----------



## Darc Knight

DDT comes out this morning saying partial Gov shutdown could go on for months or years and he may still bring Military in.
Markets gunna love this.


----------



## luutzu

SirRumpole said:


> This sort of thing happens a lot I believe. Things get sorted and the employees get back pay and overtime eventually after being forced to beg on the streets for daily food.




From memory, there were threats of a shutdown pretty much every year. But this is a real, though partial, shutdown. 

It's been compared to "the big one" in the 90s apparently. 

Heard from lawyers suing the gov't that while those being asked to work will, history would have it, eventually get back paid. But those "furlough" aren't so sure... overtime aren't sure either. And those hundreds of thousands who's "not required" past two weeks won't get paid at all until they're called back.

Either way, it's a bit f up to do that with people's livelihood.


----------



## SirRumpole

Our own budget crisis.

Once was enough.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d-again/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6d93ba8b3059


----------



## basilio

*Hark Back to The Good Ole Days .
*


----------



## basilio

*What Donald Trump says about The Wall, Government Shutdown and Who's Paying.*

Clinical, low key analysis of Trumps shutdown claims. It will be fascinating to see Donald Trump answering direct questions in a legal setting.
"Just words" (They're not..)


----------



## Smurf1976

Trump is apparently to address the nation at 9pm on Tuesday (US time) regarding the wall and the shutdown.

Personal views aside, given all current circumstances including the US government shutdown, recent financial market volatility, the high degree of controversy surrounding the subject of the address and the unconventional nature of Trump himself my thought is that the content of the address is for practical purposes unpredictable the outcome may well be of significance to the markets. Trump could do, well, just about anything it seems.

https://www.news.com.au/world/break...n/news-story/33572169a445fdf95cf0675e22255df7


----------



## Knobby22

And to add, it appears the Republicans are abandoning him, one by one.
How will this end?


----------



## PZ99

SirRumpole said:


> Our own budget crisis.
> 
> Once was enough.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d-again/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6d93ba8b3059



One commenter got it right. 

Tell Trump the wall has now been completed and reopen the Govt


----------



## basilio

Trump is demanding the Congress fund a  southern Wall before he will re open the government.He is holding 800,000 people as  direct financial hostages and the remainder of the US as indirect hostages.

His claim is that this is National Emergency. 

The true National Emergency ? When the dam breaks and the scores of lies this creature spews out become impossible for at least some of the Republican Party to support. And Trump has to go.
Then we will see a true  national emergency...

Watch your stock markets then. Watch your other international actors  look for opportunities with a US in political turmoil.


----------



## PZ99

800,000 workers times say... $30k a year unpaid = 24 billion dollars a year.

So it'll all be over by around Easter yeah ? LOL


----------



## sptrawler

PZ99 said:


> 800,000 workers times say... $30k a year unpaid = 24 billion dollars a year.




I worked for the U.S Government for a while, nearly every year there was a threat of non payment, at least next time it is said it will be taken seriously.


----------



## basilio

Good summary of where Trump is taking the US.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Good summary of where Trump is taking the US.




The Gaurdian...

LMAO


----------



## basilio

Ah Wayne.  Such a patriot !

All the way with Donald Trump -* The Great White Hope of True Western Values. *
I have found a story to gladden your heart.


----------



## basilio

So what exactly was Donald Trump doing with Russia while he was campaigning to be President of the United States ?   What was his relationship with Vladimir Putin ? What did he intend to give him as a Christmas gift ?

The short story and the long story. The plans, the documents, the facts.

_BuzzFeed News has released documents showing that Trump’s Russian real estate plans were much more developed than the president has let on, contradicting his previous claims that the project was just an idea that had barely gotten off the ground. 

Trump Tower Moscow, a skyscraper on the Moscow river providing roughly 250 luxury condos to Russian elites — including a $50 million suite at the top offered for free to Putin — and a spa by Ivanka, branded by Trump’s daughter, and was expected to turn over $300 million in profits: 

By the time Donald Trump signed the project’s letter of intent, he was four months into his presidential campaign — running for the highest office in America while conducting private business negotiations with a hostile nation.

Today that choice has produced controversy and possible legal risk. But back then, it seemed to be pure upside.

‘Let’s make this happen and build a Trump Moscow’ Sater wrote to Cohen shortly beforehand. ‘And possibly fix relations between the countries by showing everyone that commerce & business are much better and more practical than politics. … Help world peace and make a lot of money, I would say that’s a great lifetime goal for us to go after’”.

The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...trump-latest-live-updates-government-shutdown_

_

politics

The Money Trail
_
_*Trump’s Lawyer Said There Were “No Plans” For Trump Tower Moscow. Here They Are.*

Rudy Giuliani claims the Moscow tower was barely more than a notion. “There were no drafts. Nothing in the file.” Documents obtained by BuzzFeed News tell a different story.





*Azeen Ghorayshi*

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/here-are-the-trump-moscow-plans_


----------



## basilio

Just waiting....., just waiting....., just waiting.....

Surely at some stage The Don is going to tweet "Fake News" at the details of his planned glittering Miscow Trump Tower?
Surely his Liar in Chief will come up with another alternative reality picture that can ignore Donald Trump signing off on the proposal 4 months into the campaign?
And where are our "local heroes" who follow the Don over hill and dale, across rivers and over cliffs ? 

*In which universe could a Presidental Candidate be caught negotiating a multi billion dollar business deal with a hostile foreign power while running for office - and not be jailed ?*


----------



## Darc Knight

Go Bas!


----------



## basilio

Just a thought. I think the fate of Donald Trump is the hands of ASF posters.

Why ?  IMO I think the support offered by a number of posters on ASF is fairly representative of the  support given by his US constitutions. As I see it they have supported Donald Trump regardless of personal behaviours, regardless of  his treatment of migrants, allies and neighbours. It has been Trump to the end. Any other evidence of malpractice is derided as "false news" regardless of of its evidence base.

So I wonder how they will react  with  the latest documents which detail how deep Donald Trump was in developing a multi billion dollar Trump Tower in Moscow while running for President. And looking at offering Vladimir Putin the penthouse for free as a marketing strategy ?

Is this sufficient to cause a change of thinking ? IMO if  it is sufficient for a couple of our  strong Trump supporters to reconsider their belief in his suitability as President I think that would be a fair indication of  how his broader support base will react - including the Republican Party.


----------



## Darc Knight

It's interesting. I used to read Biographies and try to get inside the minds of successful people. My initial impressions of Trump during the 80s was that he was an A-grade sleazeball. I suspended that perception and around 2000 onwards would watch The Apprentice and even bought a few Trump books. Things never added up. When you study Trump it becomes apparent that he's not fit to hold any Office and it reflects so sadly on our societies that he does.


----------



## luutzu

Darc Knight said:


> It's interesting. I used to read Biographies and try to get inside the minds of successful people. My initial impressions of Trump during the 80s was that he was an A-grade sleazeball. I suspended that perception and around 2000 onwards would watch The Apprentice and even bought a few Trump books. Things never added up. When you study Trump it becomes apparent that he's not fit to hold any Office and it reflects so sadly on our societies that he does.




As someone I heard said, Trump's the least worst bad. So you're right, we [the US] is so stuffed that Trump's preferable.


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> So what exactly was Donald Trump doing with Russia while he was campaigning to be President of the United States ?   What was his relationship with Vladimir Putin ? What did he intend to give him as a Christmas gift ?
> 
> The short story and the long story. The plans, the documents, the facts.
> 
> _BuzzFeed News has released documents showing that Trump’s Russian real estate plans were much more developed than the president has let on, contradicting his previous claims that the project was just an idea that had barely gotten off the ground.
> 
> Trump Tower Moscow, a skyscraper on the Moscow river providing roughly 250 luxury condos to Russian elites — including a $50 million suite at the top offered for free to Putin — and a spa by Ivanka, branded by Trump’s daughter, and was expected to turn over $300 million in profits:
> 
> By the time Donald Trump signed the project’s letter of intent, he was four months into his presidential campaign — running for the highest office in America while conducting private business negotiations with a hostile nation.
> 
> Today that choice has produced controversy and possible legal risk. But back then, it seemed to be pure upside.
> 
> ‘Let’s make this happen and build a Trump Moscow’ Sater wrote to Cohen shortly beforehand. ‘And possibly fix relations between the countries by showing everyone that commerce & business are much better and more practical than politics. … Help world peace and make a lot of money, I would say that’s a great lifetime goal for us to go after’”.
> 
> The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...trump-latest-live-updates-government-shutdown_
> 
> _
> 
> politics
> 
> The Money Trail
> _
> _*Trump’s Lawyer Said There Were “No Plans” For Trump Tower Moscow. Here They Are.*
> 
> Rudy Giuliani claims the Moscow tower was barely more than a notion. “There were no drafts. Nothing in the file.” Documents obtained by BuzzFeed News tell a different story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Azeen Ghorayshi*
> 
> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/here-are-the-trump-moscow-plans_




I think Mueller just came out saying there's no truth to that? Or that's something else?


----------



## basilio

luutzu said:


> I think Mueller just came out saying there's no truth to that? Or that's something else?




No Luu. Not the case at all. I suggest it is mostly overwhelmingly true. I think there might be some elements that are "inaccurate" . Michael Cohens testimony will be interesting as will the final report.

As far as the release of the documents around Trump Tower Moscow ? Hell unless one suggest they are a complete and total fabrication they appear to  clearly show just how much planning and progress as made by Trump to selling the Trump Tower project to the Russians at the same time as Trump was running for President.

 I really have to wonder at the view that Donald Trump is the least worst worst bad option for President.  Forgeting about Hilary Clinton is that view supposed to say the other Republician candidates could have been as destructive  as this person ? Really ?


----------



## luutzu

basilio said:


> No Luu. Not the case at all. I suggest it is mostly overwhelmingly true. I think there might be some elements that are "inaccurate" . Michael Cohens testimony will be interesting as will the final report.
> 
> As far as the release of the documents around Trump Tower Moscow ? Hell unless one suggest they are a complete and total fabrication they appear to  clearly show just how much planning and progress as made by Trump to selling the Trump Tower project to the Russians at the same time as Trump was running for President.
> 
> I really have to wonder at the view that Donald Trump is the least worst worst bad option for President.  Forgeting about Hilary Clinton is that view supposed to say the other Republician candidates could have been as destructive  as this person ? Really ?




Haven't been following. Just that I heard Mueller came out saying something's not accurate about the BuzzFeed article. Weren't sure what was inaccurate, all or some parts.

I don't think anyone could be as destructive as Trump. 

was saying that the American voters, those who voted, they thought that of the two, Trump is the lesser of two evil.

Regarding domestic policies, I don't think what Trump's doing is any different to what any other candidates would have done. They will have dressed it up better, not so blatantly racist... but they generally would screw the plebs just the same. Clinton might be a bit less as she need the gay votes.

On the foreign policy end... Trump is way worst. I think he had already set American strategy back a decade or two. China might actually dominate most of the world if Trump keep doing the same idiotic policies that's keeping US busy with Iran and Russia in the Middle East.


----------



## IFocus

A comment I saw the other day was interesting.

"Make America Great Again"  note taxes were north of 70% for the rich then...........


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Just a thought. I think the fate of Donald Trump is the hands of ASF posters.
> 
> Why ?  IMO I think the support offered by a number of posters on ASF is fairly representative of the  support given by his US constitutions. As I see it they have supported Donald Trump regardless of personal behaviours, regardless of  his treatment of migrants, allies and neighbours. It has been Trump to the end. Any other evidence of malpractice is derided as "false news" regardless of of its evidence base.
> 
> So I wonder how they will react  with  the latest documents which detail how deep Donald Trump was in developing a multi billion dollar Trump Tower in Moscow while running for President. And looking at offering Vladimir Putin the penthouse for free as a marketing strategy ?
> 
> Is this sufficient to cause a change of thinking ? IMO if  it is sufficient for a couple of our  strong Trump supporters to reconsider their belief in his suitability as President I think that would be a fair indication of  how his broader support base will react - including the Republican Party.



Is it any stranger than most posters on an investment forum, probably going to vote for someone, who will increase tax on investment returns.
Go figure.

Another way of looking at it is, if you are worried about Trumps honesty and integrity, maybe we should check if our back yard is clean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_politicians_convicted_of_crimes


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> Is it any stranger than most posters on an investment forum, probably going to vote for someone, who will increase tax on investment returns.
> Go figure.




I hope you don't base every decision you make on that ROI criteria. I hope you incorporate some moral, ethical and a social concience component into your decision making.


----------



## Darc Knight

I heard Bob Katter on the radio the other day saying "what type of a person can sit idlely by watching harm inflicted on another human being - a sociopath that's who!"


----------



## luutzu

Looks like a coup is unfolding in Venezuela.

VP Pence broadcast a speech encouraging freedom and democracy. 

Heard that the crowds we're seeing aren't there for the opposition, they were out to commemorate the country's anniversary in overthrowing its previous dictators some 60 years ago. The opposition sure take advantage of that and make it appear (in the West) that it's a popular uprising. 

Well done for stage craft.


----------



## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> I hope you don't base every decision you make on that ROI criteria. I hope you incorporate some moral, ethical and a social concience component into your decision making.



I vote for whichever party, I feel will provide an economic and social guidance, that aligns with my underlying belief's.
I leave the judging of those beliefs, to those who believe themselves to be paragons of virtue, as there are plenty who fall into that category.


----------



## Darc Knight

sptrawler said:


> I vote for whichever party, I feel will provide an economic and social guidance, that aligns with my underlying belief's.
> I leave the judging of those beliefs, to those who believe themselves to be paragons of virtue, as there are plenty who fall into that category.




Does that mean your Jihad against anything  not right wing is over?


----------



## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> Does that mean your Jihad against anything right wing is over?



Right wing, left wing, isn't it completely dependent on where the observer is standing.


----------



## sptrawler

Darc Knight said:


> Does that mean your Jihad against anything  not right wing is over?



I would call it more a realist, putting forward an alternative view, to the emotional,tambourine playing wailers. 
But hey, it takes all kinds, that is what makes life interesting.


----------



## basilio

Perhaps this is one of the reasons Trump isn't interested in getting the government working again.  After all it is the FBI that is pulling together the case against him.

*The Wheels of Justice Are Grinding to a Halt*
FBI agents say the government shutdown is costing them confidential sources, postponing indictments, and shutting down investigations.  

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...s-say-operations-compromised-shutdown/581014/


----------



## Darc Knight

Never underestimate Trump, he's as cunning as an outhouse rat.


----------



## basilio

When should we take bets on air line crashes around US airports because of the breakdown of air traffic controllers ?

* Air traffic controllers' union issues dire safety warning over shutdown *
‘We cannot even calculate the level of risk currently at play, nor predict the point at which the entire system will break,’ representatives write

Union leaders representing air traffic controllers, pilots and flight attendants issued an urgent warning on Wednesday that the month-long government shutdown was threatening the safety and security of the nation’s air travel system.

“*We cannot even calculate the level of risk currently at play, nor predict the point at which the entire system will break,” the union leaders wrote. “It is unprecedented.”*

In the joint statement, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association president, Paul Rinaldi, the Air Line Pilots Association president, Joe DePete, and the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA president, Sara Nelson, described a “growing concern for the safety and security of our members, our airlines, and the traveling public due to the government shutdown”.

They said staffing at air traffic control facilities was at a “30-year low” as the rate of employee callouts continued to rise. *
To compensate for the staffing shortages, the union leaders said controllers were working overtime, including 10-hour shifts, six days a week. ( That sounds so safe..)*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/air-traffic-controllers-government-shutdown-warning


----------



## basilio

*BIG NEWS..*

- Donald Trump has agreed to reopen Government for three weeks - without a wall.
- Roger Stone his confidant has been arrested by the FBI on charges of colluding withe Russians.

*Trump agrees to temporarily reopen government after America's longest shutdown – as it happened*
Move comes as president faces intense scrutiny after the arrest of key ally Roger Stone in Mueller’s Russia inquiry

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...b024f0efeaea01#block-5c4b46fde4b024f0efeaea01


----------



## basilio

More details on Roger Stone's arrest.
* Roger Stone says he won't testify against Trump after Mueller indictment *
Stone allegedly made multiple attempts to contact WikiLeaks via intermediary about hacked Democratic emails

Follow the latest updates on the Stone arrest
Jon Swaine in New York, Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington and Paul Owen

Sat 26 Jan 2019 03.37 AEDT   First published on Fri 25 Jan 2019 22.27 AEDT

Shares
38,487


1:27
Roger Stone says he will not 'bear false witness' against Donald Trump – video
Roger Stone, a longtime adviser to Donald Trump, has said he will not testify against the president after he was arrested by the FBI on Friday morning and indicted on seven criminal charges.

Stone, a veteran Republican operative, appeared in federal court in Fort Lauderdale charged by special counsel Robert Mueller with obstruction, lying to Congress and witness tampering. He was released on $250,000 bail and denies wrongdoing.

Mueller alleged in a long-anticipated indictment that Stone, 66, was asked by Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign to get inside information about emails that were stolen from Democrats by Russian government hackers and passed to WikiLeaks.

A senior campaign official “was directed” to tell Stone to find out what damaging information WikiLeaks had about Hillary Clinton even after it was reported that the material being published by the group came from Russia, the indictment said.

The allegations were the first to connect Trump’s campaign to the explosive release of the emails stolen by Russian operatives. Their release disrupted Clinton’s campaign and led the Democratic party’s chairwoman to resign.

US intelligence agencies have concluded that Russia’s interference was aimed at damaging Clinton’s campaign and helping Trump. Mueller is investigating whether any Trump associates coordinated with the Russian effort.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/25/roger-stone-trump-ally-arrested-on-seven-charges


----------



## basilio

More details on the decision to reopen the US Government.

*Trump agrees to temporarily reopen government after America's longest shutdown – as it happened*
Move comes as president faces intense scrutiny after the arrest of key ally Roger Stone in Mueller’s Russia inquiry
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-news-trump-reopens-government-deal-democrats


----------



## basilio

A funny but more biting review of when Donald Trump met Vladimir Putin.
It certainly demonstrated Donald enormous resilience and rhino thick hide.  Any normal person would have been shamed out of office...

You really have to wait for the diplomats response to the suggestion of a second meeting with Putin in the White House. Pure gold.


----------



## sptrawler

http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/...a-'theft'-of-us-jobs-and-wealth-must-end.html
The multi nationals won't like that, they are killing the pig, getting everything made in China.


----------



## wayneL

I really enjoyed SOTU speech. 

I enjoyed laughing at the peurile,  petulant display  from the Dems even more. The Donald  wins again.


----------



## sptrawler

Toyota takes a 30% drop in profits, GM lifts profits, largely due to tax cuts, but there was a 1.8% lift in revenue. It will be interesting, to see if it translates into a positive, for the U.S economy.

http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/...rofits-on-good-sales-of-pricier-vehicles.html


----------



## IFocus

An interview i read the other day of Pilger where he said some thing quite profound.

Some thing like the US elites hated Trump because he was the US unmasked


----------



## IFocus

IFocus said:


> An interview i read the other day of Pilger where he said some thing quite profound.
> 
> Some thing like the US elites hated Trump because he was the US unmasked




This is the remark

"Donald Trump can also be described as just another (violent) American President. His distinction is that he is a caricature. Many in the U.S. elite loathe Trump not because of his personal behaviour but because of a far more profound embarrassment; he is America without the mask."


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> This is the remark
> 
> "Donald Trump can also be described as just another (violent) American President. His distinction is that he is a caricature. Many in the U.S. elite loathe Trump not because of his personal behaviour but because of a far more profound embarrassment; he is America without the mask."




That is pretty uncomfortable isn't it ? Unfortunately very close to the truth.


----------



## basilio

Illuminating to hear how The Don tried to  heavy the FBI while it was investigating his links with Russia. 

*Every Day Is a New Low in Trump's White House*
The president steps over bright ethical and moral lines wherever he encounters them. Everyone in America saw it when he fired my boss. But I saw it firsthand time and time again.

*O*n Wednesday, May 10, 2017, my first full day on the job as acting director of the FBI, I sat down with senior staff involved in the Russia case—the investigation into alleged ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. As the meeting began, my secretary relayed a message that the White House was calling. The president himself was on the line. I had spoken with him the night before, in the Oval Office, when he told me he had fired James Comey.

A call like this was highly unusual. Presidents do not, typically, call FBI directors. There should be no direct contact between the president and the director, except for national-security purposes. The reason is simple. Investigations and prosecutions need to be pursued without a hint of suspicion that someone who wields power has put a thumb on the scale.

The Russia team was in my office. I took the call on an unclassified line. That was another strange thing—the president was calling on a phone that was not secure. The voice on the other end said, It’s Don Trump calling. I said, Hello, Mr. President, how are you? Apart from my surprise that he was calling at all, I was surprised that he referred to himself as “Don.”

The president said, I’m good. You know—boy, it’s incredible, it’s such a great thing, people are really happy about the fact that the director’s gone, and it’s just remarkable what people are saying. Have you seen that? Are you seeing that, too?

He went on: I received hundreds of messages from FBI people—how happy they are that I fired him. There are people saying things on the media, have you seen that? What’s it like there in the building?

This is what it was like: You could go to any floor and you would see small groups gathering in hallways, some people even crying. The overwhelming majority liked and admired Director Comey—his personal style, the integrity of his conduct. Now we were laboring under the same dank, gray shadow that had been creeping over Washington during the few months Donald Trump had been in office.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ew-mccabe-fbi-book-excerpt-the-threat/582748/


----------



## basilio

An opportunity to hear how Trump  remakes reality in his own image.


----------



## sptrawler

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...can-sues-washington-post-20190220-p50z2s.html

The teen Trump supporter, had his picture splashed on the front of the paper, and was accused of racial vilification against an Indian musician at a rally.
Which apparently was BS.


----------



## explod

Needs his Russian mates steel girders to support the family in retirement though.

Could be soon. The retirement that is.


----------



## basilio

Very hard to find supporters for* the State of Emergency to build The Wall
*

*58 former top officials rebuke Trump over 'emergency' declaration*
Fifty-eight former top national security officials have signed their names to a public letter (full text here) condemning Donald Trump’s declaration of a national emergency on the southern US border.

The signatories include both Republicans and Democrats (with a heavy sprinkling of former Obama officials) and also include: two former secretaries of state, two former secretaries of defense, a former secretary of homeland security, a former CIA director, a former director of national intelligence, a former national security adviser, multiple former directors of the national counterterrorism center and many ambassadors.
_"We have served in senior leadership roles in administrations of both major political parties, and collectively we have devoted a great many decades to protecting the security interests of the United States. [...]


We are aware of no emergency that remotely justifies such a step. The President’s actions are at odds with the overwhelming evidence in the public record, including the administration’s own data and estimates. We have lived and worked through national emergencies, and we support the President’s power to mobilize the Executive Branch to respond quickly in genuine national emergencies. But under no plausible assessment of the evidence is there a national emergency today that entitles the President to tap into funds appropriated for other purposes to build a wall at the southern border."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...b00307e95aa5b9#block-5c7452bae4b00307e95aa5b9_


----------



## Ann

I am not really shocked about this. I thought it was common knowledge about Trump already...

*Cohen Tips Off NYT: Will Call Trump "Racist" , "Con Man" And "Cheat" In Wednesday Testimony*

_Former Trump attorney Michael Cohen - who will soon head to prison after pleading guilty to eight criminal charges - will testify to Congress on Wednesday that President Trump is a "con man" and a cheat," according to a copy of his opening statement given to the New York Times.


Cohen will say that while Trump was "intoxicating" to be around, and "When you were in his presence, you felt like you were involved in something greater than yourself -- that you were somehow changing the  world," that the president is actually a 'racist, conman and a cheat.' More..._


----------



## basilio

The testimony of Michael Cohen has opened up  so many cans of worms. 
Watch as AOC forensically extracts the names of people who will  confirm the criminality of Trumps business activities.


----------



## basilio

What did we learn about Donald Trump from Michael Cohens public testimony ? 
*He is  a menace.*

*An Interlude of Moral Clarity*
Michael Cohen’s testimony was a reminder that this presidency isn’t normal.

_“_A Racist … A Con Man … A Cheat._” _Those were the words etched in the chyron as Michael Cohen testified. Yet that litany somehow fails to do justice to Cohen’s moral portrait of Donald Trump.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...n-on-trump-a-racist-a-con-man-a-cheat/583795/


----------



## basilio

You couldn't make this up.

Excerpts from the 2 hour Donald Trump ramblefest speech at the Conservative Political Action Conference.
I'm not sure what is more bizarre/ disturbing

1) That this is the most powerful man in the world  or
2) 40 million people still believe in him, adore him, glorify him, will walk over the cliff for him..

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...w-deal-and-russia-investigation-at-cpac-video

Donald Trump gave his longest speech yet at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), an annual gathering of conservative politicians and pundits. It was a chaotic, unscripted oration filled with unflattering impersonations of the president's opponents. In a speech lasting more than two hours, he took aim at the New Green Deal, Russian collusion, illegal immigrations and investigations into his personal finances. 

Notably, he made no mention of Michael Cohen, his long-time personal lawyer who gave a testimony to congress last week calling Trump a racist, a con man, and a cheat


----------



## basilio

Amidst the wealth of the US and Trillion Dollar tax cuts for the big end of town - this is what is happening amongst  the homeless.

*Medieval Diseases Are Infecting California’s Homeless*
Typhus, tuberculosis, and other illnesses are spreading quickly through camps and shelters.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...-medieval-diseases-spreading-homeless/584380/


----------



## Knobby22

Trumps budget is out again and he still wants 10 billion for the wall. 
The budget is in deficit of 900 billion due to tax cuts to the rich and increased defence spending, 10 billion for a wall is only a further 1% increase.
https://goldsilver.com/blog/2008s-economic-emergency-conditions-remain-in-place-10-years-later/

Hey they can print more money.


----------



## Junior

Knobby22 said:


> Trumps budget is out again and he still wants 10 billion for the wall.
> The budget is in deficit of 900 billion due to tax cuts to the rich and increased defence spending, 10 billion for a wall is only a further 1% increase.
> https://goldsilver.com/blog/2008s-economic-emergency-conditions-remain-in-place-10-years-later/
> 
> Hey they can print more money.




When you think about how much Australia spent on NBN for example, $10bill is bugger all.  But I guess $10bill is only the beginning in terms of building such a vast wall, and all the associated complications which will arise along the way. 

My prediction: If he does get the funding, by the time the thing is being constructed he'll lose office and construction will be called off.  So they may end up with a wall covering 5% or 10% of the border at most.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## DB008

The Muller report should be out soon enough....


----------



## basilio

So what happened today in Trumpland ?
 18m ago 00:05 

*Wednesday night summary*
Here’s what’s happened Wednesday evening:


*Hope Hicks is joining several other former Trump administration officials in cooperating with Democratic-led investigations into whether the president or those working for him committed obstruction of justice. *
A Senate subcommittee has scheduled a hearing to look into the FAA’s certification of the Boeing planes involved in the two fatal crashes.
The Devin Nunes’ cow parody account, that uses Twitter to make fun and criticize the Californian conservative congressman now has more followers than he does.
*A former DEA official, who testified to Congress in 2017 about the need to regulate prescription drugs in order to control the opioid epidemic, was recently hired by Purdue Pharma, the maker of the highly addictive painkiller OxyContin. *

Oh and the Thief/Liar in  Chief has continued to bash John MaCain.  Such a classy piece of merde.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rump-latest-news-live-us-politics-ohio-mccain


----------



## basilio

The insanity of  Donald Trump continues. He has decided that John McCain needs to be taken down a few more pegs. 
The John McCain who died some months ago and was a war hero respected across all parties.
Yep he has to tweet a series of  proven lies and fabrications to disrespect a dead US War hero...
And the outcome ? John friends step in to defend him .. 

*Schwarzenegger Steps In to Defend John McCain’s Legacy*
The former California governor called President Trump’s attacks on the late Arizona senator “absolutely unacceptable.”

Peter Nicholas  Mar 20, 2019





Senator John McCain and former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger at the University of Southern California in 2013Nick Ut / AP

Arnold Schwarzenegger and John McCain saw in each other a willingness to buck the Republican Party and became fast friends and political allies. Mindful of McCain’s legacy, the former California governor said on Wednesday that he couldn’t stay silent in the face of President Donald Trump’s recent spate of attacks on the late senator.

*He told me that Trump’s swipes at McCain are both disgraceful and destructive. “He was just an unbelievable person,” Schwarzenegger said. “So an attack on him is absolutely unacceptable if he’s alive or dead—but even twice as unacceptable since he passed away a few months ago. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to do that. I just think it’s a shame that the president lets himself down to that kind of level. We will be lucky if everyone in Washington followed McCain’s example, because he represented courage.”
*
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...negger-condemns-trumps-attacks-mccain/585421/


----------



## basilio

Fascinating to see Arnie recognising how demeaning Donald Trumps lying attacks on John McCain are.
So why is he the only Republican who has the cojones to stand up to Donal Trump ?

*Yep he has them all by the balls.*  He twists them tight  and he won't let go.. True fear..  The mark of sociopath.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ver-trump-attacks-on-mccain-is-truly-shameful


----------



## Ann

*Trump "Totally Exonerated", Calls For Investigation Into "Illegal Takedown That Failed"*


_*Update 145pmET:* President Trump has called for an investigation into the "illegal takedown that failed" - after Special Counsel Robert Mueller found that Trump and his campaign *did not collude with Russia* in the 2016 US election.

"It was just announced, there was no collusion with Russia. The most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. *There was no collusion with Russia. There was no obstruction. None whatsoever. It was a complete and total exoneration*," Trump told reporters.


"It's a shame that our country had to go through this. To be honest it's a shame that your president had to go through this for - before I even got elected, it began. *And it began illegally. And hopefully somebody is gonna look at the other side. This was an illegal takedown that failed, and hopefully somebody is going to be looking at the other side.*" More...

_
(Bold print as in article)


----------



## moXJO

Oooops


----------



## explod

Goodness me, so much rubbish and it is all over the news this morning too.

So what if Russia tried to influence the election, the US are interfering in elections around the world all the time.  The Ukraine one some five years back was shocking and hardly a word about it as the press is US directed.  In fact Russia's influence is probably good as they are much more peaceful than the US.

There are very much more important issues but of course this is the very reason for such crap, to keep us distracted.


----------



## basilio

Ann said:


> View attachment 93273
> 
> 
> *Trump "Totally Exonerated", Calls For Investigation Into "Illegal Takedown That Failed"*
> 
> 
> _*Update 145pmET:* President Trump has called for an investigation into the "illegal takedown that failed" - after Special Counsel Robert Mueller found that Trump and his campaign *did not collude with Russia* in the 2016 US election.
> 
> "It was just announced, there was no collusion with Russia. The most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. *There was no collusion with Russia. There was no obstruction. None whatsoever. It was a complete and total exoneration*," Trump told reporters.
> 
> 
> "It's a shame that our country had to go through this. To be honest it's a shame that your president had to go through this for - before I even got elected, it began. *And it began illegally. And hopefully somebody is gonna look at the other side. This was an illegal takedown that failed, and hopefully somebody is going to be looking at the other side.*" More...
> 
> _
> (Bold print as in article)





Wow Ann.  And you like  *literally believe *what Donald Trump says?
Sorry  mam'm if anyone thinks Donald Trump and his corrupt cronies have "escaped"  because the very narrow confines of Meullers investigation couldn't prove collusion with the Russians they are sadly mistaken. 

It's just a stay of execution. There are a myriad other investigations into Donald Trumps business activities, corrupt family relations, tax history that are in play. And of course the issue of obstruction of justice is still in the air.

And we havn't seen the actual evidence gathered by the investigation. 

Nuh buy some more popcorn . This creature is going to be brought to justice slowly.
/www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/24/mueller-report-trump-collusion-corruption-congress-democrats


----------



## Ann

Stop trying to shoot the messenger Bas!


----------



## basilio

There is an excellent  legal analysis of the 4 page summary released to date on the find Mueller investigation. It is written by an Attorney and former Federal prosecutor

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/barr-mueller/585628/


----------



## basilio

Ann said:


> Stop trying to shoot the messenger Bas!




No Ann I'm just expressing surprise at your judgement.


----------



## explod

basilio said:


> No Ann I'm just expressing surprise at your judgement.



Move on to something more important Bas.


----------



## Ann

basilio said:


> There is an excellent  legal analysis of the 4 page summary released to date on the find Mueller investigation. It is written by an Attorney and former Federal prosecutor
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/barr-mueller/585628/




One thing I always look at when I am trying to assess a bias Bas is how are they portraying the person in question in their photo. If it is an unbiased view, the photo will be neutral, if it is pro it will be a highly flattering photo and can't be trusted and if it has a negative bias it will be a  poor or silly expression in the photo and can't be trusted.
Let's just say the article appears to have a negative bias so it would be something I would tend not to trust and dismiss it. It has held me in good stead over the years to cut through the propaganda of varying opinions.

However as I said in my previous post, don't shoot the messenger as I have no great interested in the man, just delivering an article into an appropriate thread. He will be gone sooner or later and I have far more interesting things to think about!


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> There is an excellent  legal analysis of the 4 page summary released to date on the find Mueller investigation. It is written by an Attorney and former Federal prosecutor
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/barr-mueller/585628/



Its based on nothing.

Untill the report is made public its all just speculation. 

He won't be around forever.


----------



## explod

Good overall picture here, yep he's bad but these days so what, the planet is falling apart, weather, overpopulation and who in power cares, that's the real corruption IMHO:-

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...trump-collusion-corruption-congress-democrats


----------



## Ann

basilio said:


> No Ann I'm just expressing surprise at your judgement.




My judgement in what regard Bas?


----------



## kahuna1

*Mueller lied us into the Iraq war!!*



28 nations went to war on 9/11 or 11/9/2001 and we, as  a nation based our involvement on both FBI and CIA advice, which proved to be total *bull-dust*. That Libya handed an almost complete nuclear weapon in, not even on their radar speaks volumes.

Mueller, much like a lot of creeps, the Iran contra one, not North, but his co-helper ... he is now envoy for Trump to Venezuela ... expecting anything of substance from Mueller is a joke.

A sick joke. As someone said, its irrelevant, no one will impeach a sitting president. The next one will pardon him. Trump, is what he is ... and much worse than even the previous 4 presidents. They just keep getting worse and worse.

Question is, why does Australia still follow a goverment now run by crony capitalism and allow ... ALLOW 30 billion in unpaid taxes mainly by USA based companies go on ?  Apple makes 27% margin on sales, sells 8 billion and instead of paying tax on 2 billion plus profits here .... pays 10% of it. Microsoft, even worse books 80% of its over 3 billion sales overseas. NO GST, same for google .... 25% of sales only here ...

It is time, that we recognize we are as bad as we think Trump is. Sad, but true. 

Instead of being forced to pay higher taxes, getting back 30 billion .... is aa very big thing.  Tax office report had 500 billion of sales, HERE and none paying any tax, Half .... HALF were likely legal, the rest on the fringes between evasion and avoidance, some very far over the red line such as the Glencore creeps.

We are, a meat patsy to the USA sad but true.


----------



## explod

Top post kahuna1.  It is the entire system, learnt that years back when I studied the FBI, Trump is just part of the overall product.  That is what we should be focused on but the media need individual identities in order to keep us in fact away from fact and in the dark


----------



## kahuna1

I would agree, and add, the various Oligarch members who control the USA.

Democracy in the USA has been taken over. Our own, is a joke. Sadly and with respect to our Armed Forces, we like many were deceived.

In the USA, lobbyists spend 3.5 billion a year. Under the table but now well seen via Panama papers and other leaks another 3.5 billion is spent in political donations. Added to this, think tanks and some just stink ... where one funded by Koch brothers and Walton family of Walmart produced 22,00 documents to NOT have a minimum wage increase in the USA.

There are about 1000 Billionaires active in this. Not all are to blame and some calling for higher taxes like Buffett and Gates are in FACT the worst of the worst. Google Eugenics and their donations to on Buffets part to his idiot children especially his some who runs a military camp on the MEXICO border and one might change their mind. Nothing like donating 3 billion to abort mainly black and brown babies ... in the USA ... about 5 million for that price and ignoring that amount would fully fund the community healthcare centers which service 25 million Americans for 5 years. 
*
Oh charity ... and the master race do NOT MIX !!*

They are the EUGENICS crowd, for a master white race. Then of course the military industrial complex. Then the drug companies, then the banking ones, then the coal and gas industries and of course the tech companies who actually are the main contributors.

It goes into the media and supposed charitable donations now have the PBS., the Public Broadcast System in the USA with two Koch brother people on the board and all hires must be approved by them. Universities and endowments, come mainly with strings ....

Think tanks and few are what they appear. Climates deniers and our own Gina Rhinehart is a major sponsor of them.

On and on it goes ... world bank always a joke as is IMF which USA controls 16% and appoints the head and NOTHING .... can occur without an 85% majority. credit rating agencies ... USA based and not one peep out of them with USA adding 3 trillion in debt ...

United Nations, wow .... Trump tried appointing an ex Fox woman, a joke, a worse one .... a woman with no work experience other than 3 marriages and married to a coal baron ... who contributed 3 million to elect Trump ... IS NOW ... USA representative.

Untied nations ... along with trying to prevent another world war, is also supposedly the peak body on climate change. The new USA representative, to the IPCC ... which its reports are so pathetic and so watered down ... after USA then Saudi Arabia and then Canada object to every line, NOW has a person ... a women with 3 KIDS .... NO job ever ... wife of coal baron ...who believes in BOTH cases scientifically about climate change. BOTH ? Well 97% of all active climate scientists, an astounding number *97%* believe in the dire nature of the issue. The other 3% on the main work either for Coal industry groups, Oil industry groups or are the usual nutters.

A factoid, being Australian .... the Great Barrier Reef is now 25% the size of what it was 30 years ago. It is unlikely in the extreme due to overly hot water to be around in 2050. It takes a long time even for new growth coral to spawn and the chances of yet another extreme water temperature event occurring at least once every 10 years is almost zero. As such, by 2050 if more than 10% is left, its a surprise and that's using IPCC watered down .... International Panel on Climate Change numbers, not some of the more realistic ones which are worse.

Barnaby Joyce wants to build a coal fired station on every corner, the liberal party here, is part denial and part lip  service and the PLAN to plant 1 billion trees sounds big, BUT .... well at 2,000 trees per hectare and we emit 500 million tons oc CO2 .... hmmm 500,000 hectares NOT counting the existing plants likely there .... so 5,000 sq km. How much does one need to absorb all the CO2 we emit ? Via trees which well only will work for around 40 years removing CO2 as they die, rot and regrow ...

Well Mr Morrison it would take not 5,000 sq KM but 1.25 million SQ KM .... so thats 0.4% ... yes 0.4% ..

I vote we kick the USA out and take UK or EU ... as partners in defence and the way forward.

This video covers just part of how democracy is lost in the USA ... it pulled back from stating that whilst the will of the people NO matter what is ignored in the USA, the fact is if the Oligarchy wants something ... a tax cut the percentage of times it occurs even over strong massive public objection is around 85% of the time when public opinion is 85% AGAINST it.

USA ... heaven help them ... needs massive cleanup ...

Jennifer Lawrence from Hunger games joins .... a massive list of others desperate forchange in the USA. That a study followed 6.2 million cancer patients from 2000 to 2016 and found 42% of them HAD GONE BANKRUPT ... within 2 years via medical bills and a vial of insulin costs $600- in the USA here ... without govt $170 [[[ Mexico $150- Canada $150 -- is a disgrace.

Anyhow she is cute and pulls her punch but worth a listen


----------



## Ann

Here is another article which appears to be fairly even handed in its reporting. Note the photo is fairly neutral as well, no funny face pulling expressions in this one.
Disclosure: On a scale between 1 and 10 of my interest in this matter my result would be 1 so don't bother to try to draw me into an argument, go find someone else who cares! 

*Barr’s Letter Contains Unambiguously Good News for the U.S. *

_Today, Attorney General William Barr released his summary of the “principal conclusions reached by the Special Counsel and the results of his investigation.” The document is light on details, but it contains a key quote from the special counsel’s report itself. Here it is, in full: “The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.” This is unambiguously good news. If you doubt this, consider the alternative. Just imagine the bomb that would detonate in the American body politic if we discovered through this investigation that a sitting president worked with a hostile government (arguably our chief geopolitical foe) to try to tip the balance in a close election.





Instead, Americans should feel even greater confidence in the legitimacy of the 2016 election. They should reject — once and for all — the lurid conspiracy theories that have dominated parts of the Internet and gained entirely too much purchase in the broader media. And critically, they should trust Mueller’s conclusion. Remember how Trump’s defenders repeatedly and loudly noted that Mueller staffed his team with Democratic lawyers? Well, this is their report. Earlier today, MSNBC’s Joy Reid said that “it feels like the seeds of a cover-up are here.” This is irresponsible rhetoric. There is no evidence of a cover-up. Instead, there’s a great deal of evidence that Mueller conducted a thorough and diligent investigation. More...

_


----------



## kahuna1

With you ... at about 1 out of 10 ... interest in this. 

I prefer this report ... I doubt anyone will call Noam Chomsky anti Semitic, since he is ... JEWISH. His agreement with Illham the poor person in the senate who mentioned this ... Money ... nothing against the faith, she being muslin was hung out to dry. Anyhow love Noam and his actually objective look at things v some idiots who fall far short.


----------



## bellenuit

Ann said:


> “The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”




There seems to be some confusion regarding what was revealed in the summary. Reports that Mueller said there was no collusion and repeated by Trump is incorrect. It was Barr and Rosenstein, two Trump appointees and both Republican, that said there was no collusion with Russia. The actual report, as quoted above, said collusion was not established. This is quite different and will likely be the subject of hot debate as more of the report is released.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> There seems to be some confusion regarding what was revealed in the summary. Reports that Mueller said there was no collusion and repeated by Trump is incorrect. It was Barr and Rosenstein, two Trump appointees and both Republican, that said there was no collusion with Russia. The actual report, as quoted above, said collusion was not established. This is quite different and will likely be the subject of hot debate as more of the report is released.




Plus 1 . There is also the second issue regarding  the obstruction of justice issue which is still undecided
And in any case there is a ton more material in the report.  All we are seeing so far is a 4 page summary by Donald Trumps hand picked AG.

A fuller account of the release and a link to teh actual 4 page letter can be found below.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/24/mueller-report-donald-trump-barr-congress-russia


----------



## basilio

A fuller account of who has featured in Mueller inquiry, their fate (to date..) and their connection with Donald Trump can be found here.

*Donald Trump's presidency has been dogged by Robert Mueller. These were the key players in the Russia probe*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...ler-russia-investigation-key-players/10679256

There is also  a more detailed explantion of what has happened.

*Donald Trump says the Robert Mueller report is 'complete exoneration'. 
Except it isn't
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...ueller-report-he-may-not-be-innocent/10935764


*


----------



## sptrawler

So when are they going to 'nail' Trump?
The hysteria has been going on for 12 months, it seems the echo chamber, is soundproof.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> So when are they going to 'nail' Trump?
> The hysteria has been going on for 12 months, it seems the echo chamber, is soundproof.




What do you reckon SP ? That the Don has dun nothing untoward ? That is government is a model of propriety and efficiency ? That all his employees doing time or being indicted are victims of a witch hunt ?

Donald Trump has created an absolute record for scandals - and still staying in power. Welcome to USA Today.
https://www.thoughtco.com/trump-scandals-4142784


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> What do you reckon SP ? That the Don has dun nothing untoward ? That is government is a model of propriety and efficiency ? That all his employees doing time or being indicted are victims of a witch hunt ?
> 
> Donald Trump has created an absolute record for scandals - and still staying in power. Welcome to USA Today.
> https://www.thoughtco.com/trump-scandals-4142784




So the media says.
Who owns the media? The multinationals with their advertising budgets.


----------



## qldfrog

So if the russians are not to be blamed after putting all the obamah administration and democrats power trying to down the elected president by all legal or not mean.
Who the hell is Hillary going to blame?
And would it be fair to launch a similar enquiry on the democrats behaviour, Clinton foundation and cie

Ohh i must be misleaded
And what a shame of a name in the US to see the left self labelling itself democrat and liberal
Might have been true at a time?
But not in the last few decades


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> So the media says.
> Who owns the media? The multinationals with their advertising budgets.




Clever SP . Pure Trumpism at its best..  Jut deny it all away and say it's a witch hunt.

If your quick I'm sure there is a place for you on the Trump promotion Train.


----------



## qldfrog

There was a real enjoyment to be had reading the shocked ABC following both the Trump enquiry results and NSW election results
Small pleasure of life, but sadly no self introspection expected


----------



## Ann




----------



## Ann

Well there you go, all this fake news was just to get higher ratings, ethics be damned! So now I see why we are getting all this climate change bull being shoved down our throats. Shock horror Russia controlled the election in the United States and Trump! Shock Horror Climate Change is going to take us out in 12 years! It is all about the ratings folks! Good news and no news is really bad for business. Crumbling governments, crashing stock markets and searing earth temperatures are really good for the news business.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Clever SP . Pure Trumpism at its best..  Jut deny it all away and say it's a witch hunt.
> 
> If your quick I'm sure there is a place for you on the Trump promotion Train.



Actually I don't care one iota about U.S politics, I don't even know the difference between Republicans and Democrats or their leanings.
What interests me is the theatre of it all, the way the press as ANN says, try to paint their own picture.
The underlying belief people have, in what the press says, without question.
As for Trump, if he is a very unpleasant person, really what has that got to do with anything?
He isn't in a personality competition.


----------



## Junior

sptrawler said:


> As for Trump, if he is a very unpleasant person, really what has that got to do with anything?
> He isn't in a personality competition.




I would think that the personality of the most powerful individual on the planet, is relevant and can affect us all.  His personality drives his decision-making.


----------



## sptrawler

Junior said:


> I would think that the personality of the most powerful individual on the planet, is relevant and can affect us all.  His personality drives his decision-making.



Well his personality is what it is, and some obviously like it and others hate it, but he is still there and untill the next election no one will know the numbers.
He certainly isn't the vanilla politician we normally get.
Let's not forget, Kev was painted as a happy cheerfull little bloke, that proved completely wrong.


----------



## kahuna1

A very differing view of the report .... Trump is teflon, I do not dispute this.

He will however create some conflict I suspect pre 2020 .
He cannot be not elected or he faces years of court cases from many fronts. Russian interference was always a waste of time as was Mueller ... the one who aided the Iraq war invasion.

HE has YET to call the WHITE ISIS attack ... in Christchurch, by a white NUT a terrorist act.

The following is illumination, BOTH sides of the extremes need to be squished, BOTH sets of NUTS, not just one set of extremists ,,,

*Trump is a racist ..*. 





Or another one ...
*Trump Rallies Linked to Hate Crimes Spike*




NONE of the above will make USA mainstream media. NONE of it !! 



And take whatever you like


----------



## Ann

kahuna1 said:


> NONE of the above will make USA mainstream media. NONE of it !!




You know kahuna, I think you are right. I think a lot of the media will become a bit more careful about what they say and their obvious bias as the 'mid' group of their audience will just say, meh, more bullsh!t and fake news from CNN et al and switch off. The 'mid' group would have been their main target as they know the die-hard believers won't move an inch from their views or CNN but it was the 'mid' group CNN would have wanted to entice. That is why I believe Trump will garner a lot more power for his agendas now. Except for a few die-hards who will hate him forever and believe whatever is flushed into their brains, the mid group will now give him the benefit of the doubt. If this is a good thing or not, history will give us the answer, depending on who writes it, embellishes it and filters it to us!


----------



## kahuna1

Hilarious how badly wrong the media has this .... Trump has an excuse, he is NUTS.


----------



## basilio

In what universe do we accept the 4 page summation  of Muellers report of a Trump appointed AG ( who was appointed because he already decided the President couldn't be tried)  ?

How about actually reading the report ? And why not consider the other outstanding investigations into Trumps business, personal and political affairs ? Or is he completely above and beyond the law ?


----------



## kahuna1

It does get worse ....

far far worse ... its la la land ...

*Trump Will Get to Edit Mueller Report Before it Goes Public*


In simple terms, he gets it before the two houses do ... and HE ... PRESIDENT DUMP ... gets to remove anything he likes.  It was a 300 page thing, without the evidence and backing, I wonder if after he is finishes ... which will be a few weeks .... likely months ... if it is 10 pages long verses the original 300 ?




Whilst impeaching a sitting president was never going to happen .... nor enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to show collusion with the Russians ... its the other stuff ... 79 indited ... 7 in jail .... likely when the other cases are finished virtually every Trump person including his own spawn, will be in jail.

2020 is needed so Trump himself can avoid being chased, but then again I am not sure even this will work as some laws are NOT federal and pardons only work on Federal crimes.


----------



## Ann

This is very, very creepy. It probably isn't the right thread as it isn't about Trump, but it is about an American politician, a Democrat this time.


----------



## kahuna1




----------



## Ann

This article may give you a chuckle and the date of release did not escape my notice.

*Leaked Mueller Report Proves Barr Lied; Collusion Theorists Vindicated*

An unredacted copy of the Robert Mueller report has been leaked to the _Washington Post_, who published the full document on its website Monday.

The report contains many shocking revelations which prove that Attorney General William Barr deceived the world in his summary of its contents, as astute Trump-Russia collusion theorists have been claiming since it emerged.

For example, while Barr’s excerpted quote from the report may read like a seemingly unequivocal assertion, “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities,” it turns out that the full sentence reads very differently: “_It is totally not the case that_ the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.” The following sentence is even more damning: “It definitely did establish that that happened.”

The report goes on to list the evidence for numerous acts of direct conspiracy between Trump allies and the Russian government, including a detailed description of the footage from an obtained copy of the notorious “kompromat” video, in which Trump is seen paying Russian prostitutes to urinate on a bed once slept in by Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as other documents fully verifying the entire Christopher Steele dossier which was published by _BuzzFeed_ in January 2017.

Other evidence listed in the report includes communication transcripts in which Russian President Vladimir Putin is seen ordering President Trump to bomb Syria, stage a coup in Venezuela, arm Ukraine, escalate against Russia in America’s Nuclear Posture Review, withdraw from the INF treaty and the Iran deal, undermine Russia’s fossil fuel interests in Germany, expand NATO, and maintain a large military presence near Russia’s border. These things were done, according to Putin, in order to “keep things interesting.”

Mueller told reporters Monday morning that there would indeed be mass indictments of large numbers of Trump associates revealed in the near future, including Jared Kushner and Donald Trump, Jr, just as the diligent journalism of MSNBC and other respected news media outlets have been assuring. Mueller said the delay in the arrests, and the mountain of evidence which will surely lead to Trump’s impeachment, was due to the need to “cross a few ‘t’s and dot a few ‘i’s.”

When asked why he didn’t reveal to the public that Barr was misrepresenting the contents of his report, Mueller responded with a mischievous grin, “I didn’t want to spoil the surprise.” He then put on a pair of sunglasses and rode off on a motorcycle due east into the rising sun, while the smooth notes of a single saxophone resounded through the D.C. cityscape.

Needless to say, this completely vindicates the many alert reporters who rightly pointed out that Barr’s assertions about the Mueller report could be gravely dishonest, and that there was no way to know whether or not it had determined collusion between Trump and the Russian government. In a greater sense, it vindicates everyone who has spent the last three years focusing all public attention on the suspicion that the Kremlin could possibly have infiltrated the highest levels of the US government. In an even greater sense, it vindicates America, and it vindicates our very souls.

I feel a bit sheepish writing all this, because I’ve been a very vocal critic of the Russian collusion narrative from the very beginning. It turns out that by voicing skepticism and demanding evidence for a news story that dominated political discourse to the near exclusion of all else, I was actually assisting the Russian government in its war against democracy, truth, and justice.

Obviously I owe the world a very big apology. I’m sorry for calling the Russiagaters idiots, morons, drooling imbeciles, stupid, gullible sheep, foam-brained human livestock, tinfoil pussyhat-wearing delusional conspiracy theorists, demented cold war-enabling McCarthyite bootlickers, oafish slug-headed slime creatures, energy-sucking, CIA-coddling wastes of space and oxygen, and an embarrassment to the human species. Clearly, because of their indisputable vindication this April the first 2019, they are definitely none of these things. Ref.


----------



## basilio

For some reason I am reminded of Dr Strangelove. Let's lighten the atmosphere.


----------



## basilio

You have to also remember just how this all started.  ( They were probably getting well flamed on asf..)


----------



## qldfrog

After all the crap about Hilary bitching about her loss due to the russian , maybe the democrats could look at what Joe Bidden did under Obama to help the corruption profiting his son: got an Ukrainian procecutor sacked
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived
These are the swamp heroes the democrats and here the anti Trump fanatics have.so naive
Imagine if Trump was doing the same


----------



## kahuna1

Another day ...

Another classic .... ORIGIN ,.,, or Oringes ..... Trump cant even tell the truth about where his own father was born and beyond that speak. 

MAGA 2020 ... by 2024 it will be time for Junior !! Then 2 terms and Ivanka, then Barron will be 35 ...
*Trump Wants "Oringes" Investigated*
**


----------



## basilio

Another day another rout of staff that won't implement the criminal demands of this sociopathtic thug.
His Immigration Minister wouldn't accept his demands to illegally close the borders and re start separation of families seeking asylum .
She is gone.
The head of his Secret Service is also gonski.  Who will ask why ? Who will be his replacement ?

*Donald Trump sacks Secret Service boss, Randolph Alles*
A day after US Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen resigned, Donald Trump has fired his Secret Service director, sending the White House further into turmoil.
https://www.news.com.au/world/north...p/news-story/ed94a9beaef83d2690fc0de0e5a20a3a


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

How xxxxing shameful has politics become in the US where the President can promote a doctored video of his opponents and  *almost none one in his party calls him out for it ? * You would think they were just too scared to squeak wouldn't you ?

So it makes one wonder what the rest of  mice in the GOP will make of Donald Trump openly interfering with  multi billion dollar contacts to support companies that are personal donors to his cause. And (naturally..) the companies are aligned with the Dodgy Brothers.

This story sums up the  corruption and cronyism of Trump in a neat little package.

*A Single Scandal Sums Up All of Trump’s Failures*
The president has been intervening in the process of producing a border wall, on behalf of a favored firm.

Many of the tales of controversy to emerge from the Trump administration have been abstract, or complicated, or murky. Whenever anyone warns about destruction of “norms,” the conversation quickly becomes speculative—the harms are theoretical, vague, and in the future.

This makes new _Washington Post _reporting about President Donald Trump’s border wall especially valuable. The _Post _writes about how Trump has repeatedly pressured the Army Corps of Engineers and the Department of Homeland Security to award a contract for building a wall at the southern U.S. border to a North Dakota company headed by a leading Republican donor.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/trump-border-wall-contractor/590242/


----------



## basilio

*Speaking Truth to Power.  *
Sadq Khan , Mayor of London, has barrelled Donald Trump nefpre his upcoming State visit. As far as I can tell it is perhaps the only senior political figure to date who has denounced Trumps politics and behaviour.

In my view he has said  in public what billions of people say in private or in the safety of friends. Perhaps this is the leadership required to call out Godzilla for the creature he is.
______________________________________________
Last night I watched  The Big Short again. Still as powerful as ever. What struck me however was how a few people were able to recognise how totally unsustainable the housing bubble was in the US and the inevitable disaster that would follow. And yet all along the Banks, Big Business the Government, SEC steadfastly refused to see what was happening.

I see a similar story unfolding today.

* It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump *
Sadiq Khan
The US president gives comfort to the far right. The prime minister should speak truth to power

Praising the “very fine people on both sides” when torch-wielding white supremacists and antisemites marched through the streets clashing with anti-racist campaigners. Threatening to veto a ban on the use of rape as a weapon of war. Setting an immigration policy that forcefully separates young children from their parents at the border. The deliberate use of xenophobia, racism and “otherness” as an electoral tactic. Introducing a travel ban to a number of predominately Muslim countries. Lying deliberately and repeatedly to the public.

No, these are not the actions of European dictators of the 1930s and 40s. Nor the military juntas of the 1970s and 80s. I’m not talking about Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un. These are the actions of the leader of our closest ally, the president of the United States of America. This is a man who tried to exploit Londoners’ fears following a horrific terrorist attack on our city, amplified the tweets of a British far-right racist group, denounced as fake news robust scientific evidence warning of the dangers of climate change, and is now trying to interfere shamelessly in the Conservative party leadership race by backing Boris Johnson because he believes it would enable him to gain an ally in Number 10 for his divisive agenda.

Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

They are intentionally pitting their own citizens against one another, regardless of the horrific impact in our communities. They are picking on minority groups and the marginalised to manufacture an enemy – and encouraging others to do the same. And they are constructing lies to stoke up fear and to attack the fundamental pillars of a healthy democracy – equality under the law, the freedom of the press and an independent justice system. Trump is seen as a figurehead of this global far-right movement. Through his words and actions, he has given comfort to far-right political leaders, and it’s no coincidence that his former campaign manager, Steve Bannon, has been touring the world, spreading hateful views and bolstering the far right wherever he goes.

That’s why it’s so un-British to be rolling out the red carpet this week for a formal state visit for a president whose divisive behaviour flies in the face of the ideals America was founded upon – equality, liberty and religious freedom.

There are some who argue that we should hold our noses and stomach the spectacle of honouring Trump in this fashion – including many Conservative politicians. They say we need to be realists and stroke his ego to maintain our economic and military relationship with the US. But at what point should we stop appeasing – and implicitly condoning – his far-right policies and views? Where do we draw the line?

*Rather than bestowing Trump with a grand platform of acceptability to the world, we should be speaking out and saying that this behaviour is unacceptable – and that it poses a grave threat to the values and principles we have fought hard to defend – often together – for decades.*

I am proud of our historic special relationship, which I’m certain will survive long after President Trump leaves office. The US is a country I love and have visited on many occasions. I still greatly admire the culture, the people and the principles articulated by the founding fathers. But America is like a best friend, and with a best friend you have a responsibility to be direct and honest when you believe they are making a mistake.

*In years to come, I suspect this state visit will be one we look back on with profound regret and acknowledge that we were on the wrong side of history.*

It’s too late to stop the red-carpet treatment, but it’s not too late for the prime minister to do the right thing. Theresa May should issue a powerful rejection – not of the US as a country or the office of the presidency, but of Trump and the far-right agenda he embodies. She should say that the citizens of the UK and the US agree on many things, but that Trump’s views are incompatible with British values.

History teaches us of the danger of being afraid to speak truth to power and the risk of failing to defend our values from the rise of the far right. At this challenging time in global politics, it’s more important than ever that we remember that lesson.

_Sadiq Khan is the mayor of London
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish_


----------



## bellenuit

It is easy to denounce Trump and he well deserves it, but it is the selective denunciation that is the problem. Here is a good explanation from LBC but in relation to Corbyn.


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> It is easy to denounce Trump and he well deserves it, but it is the selective denunciation that is the problem. Here is a good explanation from LBC but in relation to Corbyn.





Absolute spot on as far as Corbyn is concerned.


----------



## wayneL

Nawaz so bang on there.  Nor only China,  but other regimes such as Saudi Arabia.

The anti Trump stuff by Kahn and suchlike is actually embarrassingly childish. It is also counterproductive; if one wishes to be rid of Trump, this kind of peurility only intensifies support for him and the right. 

Debate,  not faux outrage. 

Have not the left learnt this lesson by now?


----------



## basilio

We keep wondering at what point will Donald Trump "stop" ? Where is " a bridge too far" ? In his most recent interview he said that if a foreign nation came to him with adverse intelligence on his political opponents he would still take it onboard.  Really ? 

*Trump’s Astonishing Confession*
The president says he’d do it all again.

“Suppose a president were to announce that he would in no circumstances appoint any Roman Catholic to office and were rigorously to stick to this plan…” Charles L. Black Jr. wondered aloud in his 1974 book, _Impeachment: A Handbook_. “Suppose a president were to announce and follow a policy of granting full pardons, in advance of indictment or trial, to all federal agents or police who killed anybody in line of duty, in the District of Columbia, whatever the circumstances and however unnecessary the killing?”

In the throes of Watergate, the Yale professor pondered the question: Must a president commit an indictable offense to be impeached? Black imagined a range of non-crimes that might justify removing a president from office. The two I quoted are the climax of a series of increasing ominousness.

*But even Black’s inventive mind did not foresee what we all just saw on ABC: The president confessing in advance that he would accept stolen information from a hostile foreign intelligence agency if it helped his presidential campaign.*

“There’s nothing wrong with listening,” he told George Stephanopoulos. “If somebody called from a country, Norway, ‘We have information on your opponent.’ I think I'd want to hear it.”

This confession carries heavy implications, starting with the question of whether Donald Trump Jr. lied to Congress when he denied telling his father in advance about the famous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, in which he believed a representative of the Russian government would be offering dirt on the Hillary Clinton campaign.

The Mueller report found that the Trump campaign desperately wished to collude with Russian intelligence—but concluded that there was insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone at the campaign actually had done so. But after three years and the special counsel’s investigation? Trump acknowledges that he would do it all again, if given a chance.

Will he be given a chance, whether by Russia or China or Saudi Arabia or Abu Dhabi or Israel or Pakistan—or for that matter any number of foreign non-state actors, legitimate and criminal, with intelligence-gathering capability?

Yoni Appelbaum argued in an important cover story for _The Atlantic_ in favor of opening an impeachment inquiry into the president. I worried some weeks later on this site about the political and institutional risks of proceeding down that path.* But Trump himself gets a vote; Trump himself forces the hands even of those who might wish to restrain the hand. He is such an institution wrecker—his instincts are so lawless—that he may simply refuse to allow Congress not to impeach him.*

Confessing a willingness to collaborate with foreign spies against his domestic political opponents is a hand-forcing move. The risks of proceeding are still there. But the risks of not proceeding? Trump just forced us all to confront them in the most aggressively public possible way.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...says-hed-accept-foreign-electoral-aid/591577/


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump speaking to the Belgiums about Climate Change.



* Let’s get real before deepfake videos corrupt our democracy *
Hannah Jane Parkinson
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...fake-videos-corrupt-democracy-mark-zuckerberg


----------



## basilio

Where is Trump taking the world in the Middle East  ?  \

 Print  Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*US-Iran tensions are on the rise. Here's what that could mean for Australia*
Tensions between the United States and Iran could be rising to "the brink of a catastrophic military clash", experts have warned, after the US announced plans to send more troops to the Middle East and oil prices looked set to rise.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-18/iran-us-conflict-over-oil-tankers-attack/11216380


----------



## wayneL

....and Jesus H Christ!!! 

If not Trump 2020, it looks to be Biden.

Lord,  just take me now!


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> ....and Jesus H Christ!!!
> 
> If not Trump 2020, it looks to be Biden.
> 
> Lord,  just take me now!





Pleeeseee ..


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Pleeeseee ..



Having 350.org fantasies are we?


----------



## Knobby22

Trump doesn't want a war with Iran but clearly some of the Hawks he works with do.
I think they will try to force his hand.  I note the Fox thralls are calling for missile strikes.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Trump doesn't want a war with Iran but clearly some of the Hawks he works with do.
> I think they will try to force his hand.  I note the Fox thralls are calling for missile strikes.




Hopefully he ignores their advice, would imagine lots of pressure from the Arabs / Israel to start a shooting war.


----------



## chiff

IFocus said:


> Hopefully he ignores their advice, would imagine lots of pressure from the Arabs / Israel to start a shooting war.



Through out history blockading countries was considered an act of war,and the unilateral sanctions imposed by the US on Iran are very similar.I heard an Iranian say that they have proxy militias ready to attack all US bases in the Middle East.I think the US will think very prudently before making an attack on Iran-Iran is capable of exacting punishment on a lot of their allies,just across the gulf of Oman.What will happen to our precious share market if the fun begins?


----------



## basilio

chiff said:


> What will happen to our precious share market if the fun begins?




Risk issues should certainly be acknowledged. I wonder what the cost of short positions on the market in the next 1-2 months look like ?


----------



## sptrawler

chiff said:


> Through out history blockading countries was considered an act of war,and the unilateral sanctions imposed by the US on Iran are very similar.I heard an Iranian say that they have proxy militias ready to attack all US bases in the Middle East.I think the US will think very prudently before making an attack on Iran-Iran is capable of exacting punishment on a lot of their allies,just across the gulf of Oman.What will happen to our precious share market if the fun begins?



Hopefully you have factored that into your fiscal plan.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Risk issues should certainly be acknowledged. I wonder what the cost of short positions on the market in the next 1-2 months look like ?



Should I change to cash?


----------



## chiff

Knobby22 said:


> Trump doesn't want a war with Iran but clearly some of the Hawks he works with do.
> I think they will try to force his hand.  I note the Fox thralls are calling for missile strikes.



It seems the US created a crisis and are now trying to back away .I hope Trump realises he has been led down a stupid path by his hawkish advisers.I well remember during the Serbian conflict that the US claimed to have destroyed 53 tanks.No one ever saw a tank that they hit-decoys everywhere.What will their missile strikes hit in Iran?


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Should I change to cash?




If you believe Bolton and Pompeo won't  create an excuse for a war  with Iran there is little need to worry.
But could you ? As far as the markets go you don't want to hang around if/when the merde flies.


----------



## basilio

The conflict facing Donald Trump

*The Iran Crisis Is Forcing Trump Into Uncomfortable Territory*
The president is fighting two impulses: not backing down against an adversary, and his aversion to a new conflict.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/06/last-minute-trump-calls-off-strike-iran/592276/


----------



## basilio

The US undertook a $250m war game back in 2002 on what might happen if they faced off against Iran in a war situation. Very sobering outcome. .. Iran would have taken a keen interest in the results.

*Millennium Challenge 2002*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
"Millennium Challenge" redirects here. For The Millennium Challenge Corporation, see Millennium Challenge Corporation.

*Millennium Challenge 2002* (*MC02*) was a major war game exercise conducted by the United States Armed Forces in mid-2002. The exercise, which ran from July 24 to August 15 and cost $250 million, involved both live exercises and computer simulations. MC02 was meant to be a test of future military "transformation"—a transition toward new technologies that enable network-centric warfare and provide more effective command and control of current and future weaponry and tactics. The simulated combatants were the United States, referred to as "Blue", and an unknown adversary in the Middle East, "Red", with many lines of evidence pointing at Iran being the Red side.[_citation needed_].  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2003/03/the-officer-who-predicted-saddam-s-moves.html


----------



## kahuna1

If I may chirp in ....

Iran, whilst Mullahs seem ... well ... not nice. Each religion has its own beliefs. Its words at times about USA and Israel, the latter, contains 2 of the 4 top Islamic worship sites. Let alone holy christian ones.

In 1981, Israel, once friendly with Iran bombed their sole nuclear facility then.

In the 1980-88 Iraq led invasion of Iran .... Iraq and Saddam sponsored and supported by the USA .... a Conservative MID range estimate is 1 million died in that war. Iran, was the innocent party.

Iran eventually despite Iraq having a much better military started winning. Iraq .... used 300 times ... WMD's not just poison gas .... nerve agents.

100,000 of the dead Iranians, most civilians via nerge agents out of the 500,000 they lost.

Not some fantasy, or pet theory ... sad fact.
Iran went to UN and complained, they verified both the USE .... and scale.

Here is the Low end estimate via Wikipedia ...
_*current estimates are more than 100,000,
Iran asked the UN to engage in preventing Iraq from using chemical weapon agents, but there were no strong actions by the UN or other international organizations. UN specialist teams were dispatched to Iran at the request of the Iranian Government, in March 1984, April 1985, February–March 1986, April 1987, and in March, July and August 1988.*_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against_Iran#Casualties

Iran, and dialogue was .... it was some third rate power. Outside the 8 nuclear superpowers, there is no more capable nation to defend itself.

If a single facility were to be bombed ... by the USA or likely say 5 .... the response whilst not threatening USA directly, Iran, already a victim of WMD's ... can and clearly just demonstrated that it can shoot down a top shelf drone, I sadly suspect .... all hell will break loose.

One only has to look at say Iraq and when Saddan was actually letting WMD inspectors on the ground, denying he had any ... USA did not believe it. It invaded on the pretense it had WMD.s and well a million dead latter in Iran .... another 500k regional via Syria and Libya and 1 million both sides 1980-88 ... what would you do ?

Iran is not Iraq.


----------



## SirRumpole

You might need to do a double-take on this one,

Americas super rich want to pay more tax. (or some of them at least).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...ultra-rich-urge-president-candidates/11245146


----------



## kahuna1

There is sadly, a more confronting one I will share latter.

Astounding and telling on many levels. It is an admission, so awful, that I am trying to wrap my mind around it.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> You might need to do a double-take on this one,
> 
> Americas super rich want to pay more tax. (or some of them at least).
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...ultra-rich-urge-president-candidates/11245146




That is a seriously interesting story.  The fact that "once upon a time " Donald trump himselfsuggested and supported such a tax is also fascinating.


----------



## basilio

How many woman have accused  the Rapist in Chief of abuse ?
Another woman spoke up a few days ago and said Donald Trump assaulted her in a woman dressing room 20 years ago.  The woman  in question is E J Carroll a long time advice columnist in Elle magazine.

Anyway... So what ?  *Everyone knows* Donald Trump has raped, groped, abused , destroyed more woman than anyone can count.
And* everybody knows* he has routinely denied each and every instance, and for good measure has kicked the women in their teeth to let them know who's boss now.

So in 2019 another very credible rape allegation ends up being slid over by almost everyone because the Teflon Don  is now impregnable to just another charge of criminal assault on a mere woman.

*What does this say about the US at the moment that nothing will happen ?*

*Another Allegation—And Trump’s Allies Just Don't Care*
Inside the president’s orbit, the gravity of sexual-assault accusations against him no longer seems to register.

“What was she, like, the 28th or something?” one former White House official pondered to me. In a separate conversation, another offered a different guess: “Twenty-two? Twenty-three?”

They were talking about E. Jean Carroll, the longtime _Elle_ advice columnist who, for the first time last week, publicly accused Donald Trump of assaulting her in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room more than 20 years ago. And what they were trying to do was locate the latest number of women who have accused the president of sexual misconduct. (The answer: at least 22.)

For these former officials, the apparently incalculable magnitude of this number did not cause them to reconsider Trump’s every denial of the varied allegations—to wonder, for example, about the likelihood that 22 or 23 or 28 women were all lying in their stories of harassment, groping, unwanted kissing, and, in Carroll’s case, sexual assault.

Rather, for them, the increase in the number of women seemed to mirror the increase in their indifference. Another accusation, they seemed to say, was like another dollop of numbing cream. “I didn’t read it,” the second former official told me, referring to Carroll’s written account in _New York_, which was an excerpt from her forthcoming book. “We’re just kind of numb to it all at this point.”

One current White House official said that “the only thing” that “caught my eye” was Trump’s dismissal of Carroll’s claim. Speaking to reporters from _The Hill_ on Monday, the president addressed her allegation from behind the Resolute desk: “I’ll say it with great respect: No. 1, she’s not my type. No. 2, it never happened. It never happened, okay?”
*
“Like, what are you gonna do?” the official said. “This is the guy you got.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...lies-react-e-jean-carrolls-allegation/592870/*


----------



## basilio

E.J Carroll revealed the sex assault incident in an article in The New York Times. It's actually just one incident of a list of Hideous Men she has encountered. 

Its a great read and an interesting insight into the world E.J Carroll grew up.

 
first person
Donald Trump Assaulted Me, But He’s Not Alone on My List of Hideous Men

 

 Pin It 
 
 966  


first person  June 21, 2019
*Hideous Men*
*Donald Trump assaulted me in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room 23 years ago. But he’s not alone on the list of awful men in my life.*
By E. Jean Carroll Photograph By Amanda Demme





E. Jean Carroll. Photo: Amanda Demme for New York Magazine
*My first rich boy* pulled down my underpants. My last rich boy pulled down my tights. My first rich boy — I had fixed my eyes on his face long enough to know — was beautiful, with dark gray eyes and long golden-brown hair across his forehead. I don’t know what he grew up to be. My last rich boy was blond. He grew up to be the president of the United States.

The first rich boy’s name was James. He was raped by his grandfather. He was raped by his uncles. He was beaten by his father. My mother told me the stories much later. When James was 6, he was taken away from his father and given to a rich couple, Arthur and Evelyn. Arthur and Evelyn were best friends with my parents, Tom and Betty. One day my parents gave a party. Everyone brought their kids. Arthur and Evelyn drove up from Indianapolis with James to the redbrick schoolhouse where we lived, deep in the hills north of Fort Wayne. As the parents drank cocktails in our big yard with the scent of the blooming wads of cash infusing every inch of Indiana just after WWII, the kids played up on the hill beside the schoolhouse.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/06/donald-trump-assault-e-jean-carroll-other-hideous-men.html


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> How many woman have accused  the Rapist in Chief of abuse ?
> Another woman spoke up a few days ago and said Donald Trump assaulted her in a woman dressing room 20 years ago.  The woman  in question is E J Carroll a long time advice columnist in Elle magazine.
> 
> Anyway... So what ?  *Everyone knows* Donald Trump has raped, groped, abused , destroyed more woman than anyone can count.
> And* everybody knows* he has routinely denied each and every instance, and for good measure has kicked the women in their teeth to let them know who's boss now.
> 
> So in 2019 another very credible rape allegation ends up being slid over by almost everyone because the Teflon Don  is now impregnable to just another charge of criminal assault on a mere woman.
> 
> *What does this say about the US at the moment that nothing will happen ?*
> 
> *Another Allegation—And Trump’s Allies Just Don't Care*
> Inside the president’s orbit, the gravity of sexual-assault accusations against him no longer seems to register.
> 
> “What was she, like, the 28th or something?” one former White House official pondered to me. In a separate conversation, another offered a different guess: “Twenty-two? Twenty-three?”
> 
> They were talking about E. Jean Carroll, the longtime _Elle_ advice columnist who, for the first time last week, publicly accused Donald Trump of assaulting her in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room more than 20 years ago. And what they were trying to do was locate the latest number of women who have accused the president of sexual misconduct. (The answer: at least 22.)
> 
> For these former officials, the apparently incalculable magnitude of this number did not cause them to reconsider Trump’s every denial of the varied allegations—to wonder, for example, about the likelihood that 22 or 23 or 28 women were all lying in their stories of harassment, groping, unwanted kissing, and, in Carroll’s case, sexual assault.
> 
> Rather, for them, the increase in the number of women seemed to mirror the increase in their indifference. Another accusation, they seemed to say, was like another dollop of numbing cream. “I didn’t read it,” the second former official told me, referring to Carroll’s written account in _New York_, which was an excerpt from her forthcoming book. “We’re just kind of numb to it all at this point.”
> 
> One current White House official said that “the only thing” that “caught my eye” was Trump’s dismissal of Carroll’s claim. Speaking to reporters from _The Hill_ on Monday, the president addressed her allegation from behind the Resolute desk: “I’ll say it with great respect: No. 1, she’s not my type. No. 2, it never happened. It never happened, okay?”
> *
> “Like, what are you gonna do?” the official said. “This is the guy you got.”
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...lies-react-e-jean-carrolls-allegation/592870/*



Isn't it curious they are all Democrat activists, bas?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Isn't it curious they are all Democrat activists, bas?



As soon as they speak up they obviously are activists.
They obviously don't like Trump in power and would rather someone else so that makes them Democrats as that is how the US system works. Quite correct.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Isn't it curious they are all Democrat activists, bas?




And who said they were all Democrat activists ?  Or is that just another Trumpism from the Liar in Chief?
And are you suggesting that they are all (therefore) just making this up ? That the piece of merde currently sliming up the White House doesn't in fact behave* exactly *the way he said he did  when he was big noting himself about his aggressive behaviour to women ?

So why did you make absolutely no comment about the credibility of E.J Carroll ? Was she just making up all the stories of hideous men or just the Trump episoide ? Were the two friends she spoke to afterwards about the incident who confirmed her story also in on the Big Lie ?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...d26847eeed4_story.html?utm_term=.cfed8b3a26e5

*US election: Full transcript of Donald Trump's obscene videotape*


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0

I thought "the liar in chief" was good but "the rapist in chief" is on a whole new level 
Bet the Don rues the day he ticked off Bas


----------



## wayneL

EJ is quite obviously right off her trolly,  bas. 

Credibility -1,000,000,000


----------



## DB008

Imagine if Obama did this, it would be on every network for a weeks straight

​


----------



## basilio

The ongoing narcissism of Donald Trump.
Setting up a  National  Independence Day event with The Don and A Ton of Military hardware as center stage.

*Trump Wants Tanks on the National Mall. What Could Go Wrong?*
A show of military might to gratify the president’s ego—on Independence Day, no less—is yet another blow to republican virtue.

_Hello, comrades! Happy Fourth of July, or should I say, Happy 45th President of July! How fortunate we are to see our Tremendous Nation’s military hardware as we celebrate the 240th-ish anniversary of something or the other, and the third year of our Amazing President! Of course, our Great Hero Farmers are going bankrupt and our Treasonous Justice Department is engaging in ongoing Presidential Harassment, but at least our New Sherman Tanks will be on parade!_

_Unless, of course, our Sherman tanks (after their arduous trip through the Time Tunnel) plunge through the Arlington Memorial Bridge and we have to fish them out of the Potomac. In which case, it will clearly be the result of sabotage by wreckers determined to ruin yet another celebration of the Most Abused President in All of Human History._

If only this were more of a parody. In fact, President Donald Trump’s plan to turn the Fourth of July into a gigantic ritual of reassurance for his spun-glass ego has now fully matured from a crackpot idea into an expensive, authoritarian, and truly weird hijacking of our most important national holiday. Armored vehicles have already been moved through the streets of the District, and we can only be relieved that there aren’t any Minuteman III nuclear-armed ICBMs near Washington, or Trump would probably be ordering the Air Force to cart one of those down Constitution Avenue, as well.

Instead of observing the Fourth like a normal president and engaging in some quiet ritual of civic virtue—swearing in new citizens, or visiting our troops, or perhaps just watching the fireworks and leaving his fellow citizens alone for a day—Trump has decided to order up a spectacle. Rather than honoring the day on which the Founders risked being hanged as traitors in order to proclaim a new republic, Trump will preside over a show of might meant to quiet the constant thunderclaps of insecurity that fill his every waking moment.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...july-is-a-cheap-version-of-patriotism/593248/


----------



## kahuna1

I would add .....

USA media ... and this is amusing ... how Obama was treated and he was as bad as George W ... despite his better PR ... but FOX and how they treated him v Trump ...




Since Donald is running his own parade .... just like Putin and Kim Ill ...

Its amusing ... sad and scary ..


----------



## wayneL

Peak TDS. 

Get help


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Peak TDS.
> 
> Get help




Peak denial. You can't see anything wrong here ?  Beyond help.


----------



## kahuna1

Peak ?

The sadly sick, mentally, have no boundaries .... none at all.
Sadly so. Not being mean but without an off button, a stop button .... a conscience, remorse, regret and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound ... or in the very ill ... deny and actually believe lies they deny having done on camera 5 minutes ago ....

Tim Apple, instead of Tim Cook from Apple was a classic .... NO I didn't say that, despite 5 cameras catching it from 5 different TV networks.

Not suggesting he is a psychopath .... like say Hannibal Lector ... from silence of the lambs, but similar. So when he met one ... recently and they had chemistry ... Kim Ill from North Korea ... Kim, who ordered his brother murdered, was thinking how he could get the fake tan out when he killed the idiot and what wine he would have.

Donald ... delusional in his belief ... of his power and presence was admiring his own image in every reflection, his voice, his body. Or was he trying to distract us from the rape allegation ... but already history rewritten on that ,,,, his victory in 2016 ... biggest every ... despite loosing the overall vote 49 % to turkey and 51% to Hillary.

Ooohhh ... I have a better one ... chemistry with the Queen a 92 year old hottie ... she is such a good Queen able to convince a person, a narcissist that she is not vomiting when she leaves his majesty's presence. Tee heee .... 2020 will be fascinating.


----------



## wayneL

Recognizing you have a problem is key. 

Sadly, it is evident that hasn't happened for you guys yet.

2020 will probably precipitate it.


----------



## wayneL




----------



## moXJO

I bet y'all love AOC though


----------



## kahuna1

Well ...
She and others are merely asking for what we have ... universal healthcare and progressive tax.

Fox and even moderate news sites call her and others communists or socialists ... 
Its a hate hate they have with say Bernie Sanders and any of them.
I would add the lower 50% have NEW negative assets .... the lower 80% ... all the middle class a mere 7% verses our own at 36%.

Something very wrong with this picture ignoring politics.


----------



## basilio

Well the "good" news is that The Idiot-in Chief didn't turn the tank led July 4th wet fest into a rampantly partisan Trumpist diatribe.

Good so far.

And then we come to the "stable genius" who somehow manages not just to stumble over his set piece speech on victorious Continental Revolutionary Army but creates a whole new world of the 1770's with fights in the air, armies occupying air ports ect.

You couldn't make this up.  It takes a uniquely special Idiot-in-Chief  to create such worlds of wonder.

Please revise your American History folks. It has just been re written by Gods' Son-on-Earth. And of course there are many people helping us remember just what it was like way back then.




 
_Dearest Martha, please find enclosed a tracking number for my lost luggage at Philadelphia. It shall arrive to Mount Vernon via carriage in 21-25 days. Also enclosed is a receipt for the cost of parking my horse at Dulles for the weekend. #RevolutionaryWarAirportStories_

 Seth Cotlar  @SethCotlar 
_  
Put ye powder hornes and buckled shoes in ye olde bins. Poultices over 3 ounces must be left with the magistrate and can be retrieved at ye postmaster’s office upon return. Muskets and pipes are stryctly forbidden on board ye airecrafte. #RevolutionaryWarAirportStories_

 *Diane@hpochocolate1*‏ @*hpochocolate1* 20h20 hours ago


Abigail, it's hot as hell in Philadelphia. My desire for a quick trip to Boston is thwarted by a connecting flight through Atlanta. It's as if the world has turned upside down. Yours, John. #*RevolutionaryWarAirportStories*


----------



## basilio

So lets consider the possibilities of what actually happened on July 4th in Washington  (as distinct from what we believed we saw )

1) There was an  Idiot-in-Chief Deep Fake posing as The Don and speaking rubbish to make the real stable genius look like a proper idjit.

2) The televised reports of Gods Sons speech were switched with a look- a- like Deep Fake - again to mock the Great Man

3)  American History needs to* drastically* reviewed. There were in fact aerial dog fights, and battles over airports.  These inconvenient facts have been air brushed from history until the Great Leader brought them to light in the most auspicious way imaginable.

4) The tele prompter died and Idjit Trump who knew his American history by heart just told it like it was. No problems folks.


----------



## basilio

Bette Midler *✔*  @BetteMidler 

 
Dear @realDonaldTrump, It just occurred to me that you & my great, great, great grandpappy were on the same flight in 1812. The family stories of the emergency landing during the red flare are absolutely riveting. Just curious, what time do you start sundowning? xoBette #BeBette


----------



## SirRumpole

Bizarre isn't it ?

The horrible reality though is that he'll probably get reelected.


----------



## kahuna1

Oooh we are all silly ...

Stupid compared to Donald.
Don't ... be eating if you watch this, you may choke  ....



Smart people, and at times,me. If not always, being the dumbest person in the room, full of brilliant minds over the years, people with IQ's over 140, I don't think I ever heard one ever refer to their IQ or supposed intelligence and this at times was heated discussion about theories and things that often are subjective or mixed with religion and politics and other issues. Not once did anyone ever wheel that one out.

I must bow down to his superior intellect and its better than Bran or a very spicy curry, for me at least.


----------



## satanoperca

F---k me and this guy has access to the big red button to send nukes.
Think I will convert and start believing that there is a god, surely he has a brain.


----------



## basilio

Where was John Bolton when Donald Trump was shaking hands with nhs new 'bestie' Kim Jong un ?
Yep he was taking care of business in Outer Mongolia..

This is a very interesting analysis of how Donald Trump has been straightening out his foreign policy contradictions.

*Trump Couldn’t Ignore the Contradictions of His Foreign Policy Any Longer*
The president moves to straighten out his own foreign policy—and leaves his hawkish national security adviser on the sidelines.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...fix-his-foreign-policy-without-bolton/593284/


----------



## kahuna1

But BUT ..... Ticker ... aka Trust fund baby ... Tucker Carlson was right there beside him ... the Fox reporter who now is a policy advisor.

Nepotism Barbey ... Ivanka was still trying to talk to EU leaders and UK prime minister.

Ex UN USA rep ... also a Fox reporter was not able to make the trip.


----------



## IFocus

I thought this sums up the current state of play really well particularly when you continually see people get sucked into the the culture war obsession while being stripped of wealth and freedoms.

*There is no 'right' v 'left': it is Trump and the oligarchs against the rest*

*"
So why do we continue to hear and use the same old “right” and “left” labels?

I suspect it’s because the emerging oligarchy feels safer if Americans are split along the old political battle lines. That way, Americans won’t notice they’re being shafted.

In reality, the biggest divide in America today runs between oligarchy and democracy. When oligarchs fill the coffers of political candidates, they neuter democracy."
*


*https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/07/donald-trump-oligarchs-democrats-right-left*


----------



## kahuna1

IFocus said:


> *There is no 'right' v 'left': it is Trump and the oligarchs against the rest*




Very true.
All the rest, is a distraction. In fact a relationship, a society and a government can and does at times become and abusive one.

In an abusive one, the goal post are moved slowly and slowly and what would be intolerable becomes normal in every sense. Yemen .... USA bombs killing 300,000 in 2019 .... a million in 2020 ... Trump asked and on tape its all about USA arm sales.



When one see's say Amazon turn 25, valued at 1 trillion USD declaring an 11 billion profit so a P/E of 90 ... yet paying NO tax and controlling 8% of retail sales, there is something wrong with the picture.

Is it 1999 or 1996 ? Tech side ?

Google 135 billion USD sales, declares only 15 billion in the USA instead of 60 billion ... pays 2.1 billion tax on 30 billion profits, pays 1 billion to rest of the world where 60% of sales go .... one cannot compete. In fact for Australia it books 3 billion of sales overseas ... avoids 300 million in GST ... let alone pays bugger all tax anywhere.

Chevron operates a LNG plant built the same time as Pluto and exports Australian LNG .... one pays 300 million tax on  this part of their business .... the other ... pays NONE ... not likely to for 10 years.

One could go on and on ... foreign policy of the USA .... ignore genocides and in fact sell the guns to them for Yemen ....knowing full well the atrocity going on.

The arrogance and contentment of Custer mixed with the disdain for all non whites, now all non white Americans ...



Delusional and abusive on so many levels ... from tax ,,, to humans ... to religions and why does a Shia Muslim who are quite moderate have the current Genocide target on their back verses Sunni ? Or Mexicans and Latino's fleeing from not Mexico but 3 nations where USA sponsored the contras who literally peeled skin off people 1980-89 . The guy behind that ... is USA special Ambassador to Venezuela .... the one idiot there with Junior Bush when WMDS were the excuse for Iran ... the ... Bolton is the ?  As for Pompeo ex head of CIA and well from a religious cult much like Bolton and vice president ... all white ... end of world types.

what values USA had when we joined ANZUS .... as this ... America first, any price and now stuff all the rest ... is NOT what we signed up for.

Then again, a weak non existent leader ... one hung up on the first call .... left waiting for 45 mins late for the first face to face, then Tony ... Abbot ? Well ... he lost his own seat ... Now PM fathead with 10 people at dinner .... one side 20 years older than the other ... one lilly white ... one with 3 first generation Australians. One side, two elected officials. ours with 4 including Hockey ... one side only including 500 mio for Donald ... but had 4 billion plus NEt worth ... our side ... 40 mio at most ... so a ratio of 100 to one .... one side 6 religions representing a mere 5 % of the USA .... our side a grab bag and whilst Hillsong is NOT anything compared to the far extreme Christian cults some of the other side practice and speak about the end of days ... and chosen few ... and rapture, Hillsong ... is bloody harmless and sing sing not even in the same ballpark as TV evangelists from the USA.

Yes ... it was a wonderful meeting ... Korman ... Senator at the G20 and he is from I think ... Netherlands and a first generation Australian which they mistook for German the strong accent and played ... well their favorite movie !!



Why are we even in ANZUS ?

Why does Chevron pay n tax verses Woodside ?
Why does 75% of Microsoft sales go via Singapore and avoid GST on 3 billion sales costing 300 million GST stolen ? EVERY YEAR 

Ditto for Google same size .... Ditto for FB but about 1 billion ?

Why is it so ?

If their was an Ossie google and it had to compete ... could it compete with someone not paying GST ?
Same for Apple ... or any others.

What about them paying 7% effective tax verses say 25% ... HERE .... ? What value would one company be ?

What is the outcome for the USA people of no tax for the rich ... a healthcare system that is about 65% of Medicare yet costs DOUBLE ... so 20% of GDP  but adjusted 30% of GDP ... or 3 times the cost for identical cover and treatment ?

Does it matter the people with awful cover are non White .... lilly white ... so Latino with the lowest cover of all ? 25% with NO healthcare insurance at all ... the rest with ones that a test costs $1,000 co payment >?  

Is that why the lower 50% of USA has NEGATIVE net worth ? And the lower 80% ... all the middle class a mere 7% compared to Australia at 36% for the lower 80% ?

If you see the doctor 20% of the time and pay 3 times as much for treatment is it good for you ?

Should Australia adopt this policy ?

Should it, condemn it ? Or should it ... run the hell away and as far as it can and just go ... FAIR GO ... you arse stealing 30 billion and you no longer even resemble a friend on any level ?

I do love yanks .... all colours, but when the white only club of maniacs not representing the whole nation take over and scare even reasonable people, into fearing all others. ... our friend is still there but voiceless against all of this. Reminds me of 1925 in Germany, the policy of Woodrow Wilson and Hoover identical ... same policy as they now adopt. A few changes, new demons ... Muslims ? Or is it  immigrants ?

I love that movie ... Historical amnesia awakes and 3 million klan members in the 1930's now .... know better ... USA almost missed WW2 ... thank god for FDR .

As for climate change ,,,. wars ... casually mentioning a first nuclear strike against North Korea ? Gee would China like that ?

Custer  and his arrogance mixed with racial intolerance and ... well ... whatever the hell one calls USA tax theft polices verses rest of the world. Not just China ... I think Apple has set a record post 2000 with Iopd and Iphone sales and not paying tax to around 20 nations.

Watch the movie and not much ... one can say ... same movie ... playing right now. This was NOT Germany ... but USA ... in 1939. or 2019 ?


----------



## basilio

The charging of Jeffery Epstein potentially opens up very ugly can of worms. Trump is one of the scores "rich and powerful" friends who frequented Epsteins parties. 
Bill Clinton is also in the frame...

* Jeffrey Epstein sexual abuse case could push powerful friends into spotlight *
Epstein faces 45 years in jail over alleged sex trafficking – and the case could have implications for others who have mixed with him
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...n-prince-andrew-case-spotlight-famous-friends


----------



## basilio

Meanwhile the capacity for self delusion around the Liar-in-Chief has taken hold in the Supreme Court.
You couln't make this up

*Trump Lied to the Supreme Court, and Four Justices Don’t Care*
The White House insisted allegations that it wanted to add a citizenship question to the survey for political reasons were conspiracy theories, right up until the moment the president confirmed them.

“There is no smoking gun here; only smoke and mirrors,” the Department of Justice insisted when liberal groups uncovered evidence that the Trump administration was seeking to add a citizenship question to the census for the purpose of enhancing white voting power through redistricting. The Justice Department characterized the new evidence as resembling “the product of a conspiracy theorist.” The respondents’ “conspiracy theory” was “implausible on its face,” Solicitor General Noel Francisco echoed in a brief written for the Supreme Court in June.
*
.... Then Donald Trump himself confirmed that the “conspiracy theory” put forth by groups challenging the legality of the citizenship question was true.*

“Number one, you need it for Congress for districting, you need it for appropriations, where are the funds going, how many people are there, are they citizens or not citizens?” Trump told reporters on Friday, *explaining why the administration was reversing its original decision to abandon the citizenship question. *That statement not only confirms that the majority in the census case was correct, it proves that the dissenters were defending a lie, while accusing their _opponents_ of bad faith. Ironically, this sort of behavior is all too typical of Trump backers like Thomas.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/trumps-census-case-confession/593488/


----------



## basilio

An interesting thread of stories about Jeffery Epstein. Great one from 2002 and then the current crop...
Oct. 28, 2002
*Jeffrey Epstein: International Moneyman of Mystery*
By Landon Thomas Jr.






*Cash Casual:* Epstein dresses down.Photo: Courtesy of Jeffrey Epstein

He comes with cash to burn, a fleet of airplanes, and a keen eye for the ladies – to say nothing of a relentless brain that challenges Nobel Prize–winning scientists across the country – and for financial markets around the world. Ever since the Post’s “Page Six” ran an item about the president’s late-September visit to Africa with Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker – on his new benefactor’s customized Boeing 727 – the question of the day has been: Who in the world is Jeffrey Epstein?

It’s a life full of question marks. Epstein is said to run $15 billion for wealthy clients, yet aside from Limited founder Leslie Wexner, his client list is a closely held secret. A former Dalton math teacher, he maintains a peripatetic salon of brilliant scientists yet possesses no bachelor’s degree. For more than ten years, he’s been linked to Manhattan-London society figure Ghislaine Maxwell, daughter of the mysteriously deceased media titan Robert Maxwell, yet he lives the life of a bachelor, logging 600 hours a year in his various planes as he scours the world for investment opportunities. He owns what is said to be Manhattan’s largest private house yet runs his business from a 100-acre private island in St. Thomas.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The charging of Jeffery Epstein potentially opens up very ugly can of worms. Trump is one of the scores "rich and powerful" friends who frequented Epsteins parties.
> Bill Clinton is also in the frame...
> 
> * Jeffrey Epstein sexual abuse case could push powerful friends into spotlight *
> Epstein faces 45 years in jail over alleged sex trafficking – and the case could have implications for others who have mixed with him
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...n-prince-andrew-case-spotlight-famous-friends



you guys are deluded.
Jeffrey Epstein was a major democratic donor who was connected to the Clintons. Same with Harvey Weinstein. Same as Robert de niro and his little bust in france.

There is very much a left vs right thing going. The left in the US is trying to completely shut down freedoms to box people into their own way of thinking. On campus,  workplaces,  Hollywood,  business influence, tech giants,  even street protests. There are highly funded organizations thats sole purpose is to attack anyone that says the wrong thing. And to shape society how they want it.

And here are you twits thinking its about supporting trump. AOC is ten times worse. The Democrats have consistently lied about collusion and rapes and you bunch of brainless drones continued to lap it up.

It's not about Trump. Its a rejection of the idiocy that is the current left.


----------



## IFocus

Wrong war Mo you are being played........


"I thought this sums up the current state of play really well particularly when you continually see people get sucked into the the culture war obsession while being stripped of wealth and freedoms."

*There is no 'right' v 'left': it is Trump and the oligarchs against the rest*




moXJO said:


> you guys are deluded.
> Jeffrey Epstein was a major democratic donor who was connected to the Clintons. Same with Harvey Weinstein. Same as Robert de niro and his little bust in france.
> 
> There is very much a left vs right thing going. The left in the US is trying to completely shut down freedoms to box people into their own way of thinking. On campus,  workplaces,  Hollywood,  business influence, tech giants,  even street protests. There are highly funded organizations thats sole purpose is to attack anyone that says the wrong thing. And to shape society how they want it.
> 
> And here are you twits thinking its about supporting trump. AOC is ten times worse. The Democrats have consistently lied about collusion and rapes and you bunch of brainless drones continued to lap it up.
> 
> It's not about Trump. Its a rejection of the idiocy that is the current left.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Wrong war Mo you are being played........
> 
> 
> "I thought this sums up the current state of play really well particularly when you continually see people get sucked into the the culture war obsession while being stripped of wealth and freedoms."
> 
> *There is no 'right' v 'left': it is Trump and the oligarchs against the rest*



The oligarchs can always be strung from a rope. Bit harder to repair the damage done by marxist brainwashing.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> The oligarchs can always be strung from a rope. Bit harder to repair the damage done by marxist brainwashing.



How the hell do you hang them without a revolution?


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> How the hell do you hang them without a revolution?



Well you don't get into bed with them when starting a revolution....

The revolution will come from those fighting for freedom. Not from those trying to bully and limit others.

Trumps not a bloody threat, he can get voted out.
The tech giants, Universities, media and other assorted loons are. The hive mind brainwashing that goes on is frankly astonishing. Not as much so as the otherwise intelligent people who lap it up.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> ...the otherwise intelligent people who lap it up.




People with good retention who learn by rote only, none with the capacity of critical thinking and reasonable debate.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Well you don't get into bed with them when starting a revolution....
> 
> The revolution will come from those fighting for freedom. Not from those trying to bully and limit others.
> 
> Trumps not a bloody threat, he can get voted out.
> The tech giants, Universities, media and other assorted loons are. The hive mind brainwashing that goes on is frankly astonishing. Not as much so as the otherwise intelligent people who lap it up.



And right on cue:


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Well you don't get into bed with them when starting a revolution....
> 
> The revolution will come from those fighting for freedom. Not from those trying to bully and limit others.
> 
> Trumps not a bloody threat, he can get voted out.
> The tech giants, Universities, media and other assorted loons are. The hive mind brainwashing that goes on is frankly astonishing. Not as much so as the otherwise intelligent people who lap it up.




Well the problem is democracy isn't it? if you have a good democracy you don't need a revolution.
The different techniques to try to limit and twist the vote allow the oligarchs to slowly get control.
The use of "culture war" is a way of asserting control. I'm with IFocus on this.

It's a well known fact that 62% of Americans want universal healthcare instead of the present expensive and ruinous system. How come they can't get democracy?


----------



## moXJO

We have universal healthcare. Yet there are people trying to block guys like jordan peterson. Look at Canada, its like ground zero for idiotic activism.


----------



## moXJO

You want to talk oligarchs. Ok lets talk google, facebook, twitter and other tech.
Facebook in particular is trying to bring out its own currency. Is tapped into governments around the world and routinely flouting laws. 
Google in particular is driving to change  election outcomes through targeted use of information and funding.


----------



## IFocus

Communities decide what the progress of culture is not some obscure intellectual or universities etc....communities accept or reject and it different for different communities just like it always has been long before agrarian society kicked off.
As for the brain washing bit that starts very young preparing the peasants to accept  the overlords as our savours stick with that model if you like and enjoy the bread crumbs 

The culture BS is the wrong war and that's deliberate.

The health care example Knobby points out is a really in your face stark example.


----------



## sptrawler

The trade war is starting to bite, as U.S companies start to move their manufacturing out of China.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ries-existence-li-fung-says?srnd=premium-asia


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> As for the brain washing bit that starts very young preparing the peasants to accept  the overlords as our savours stick with that model if you like and enjoy the bread crumbs
> .




I think you just have to take the last election, and the use of school kids, to verify brainwashing.
If that isn't enough to convince you, then just watch any current affairs or social debate programme, there is plenty of social engineering going on.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Communities decide what the progress of culture is not some obscure intellectual or universities etc....communities accept or reject and it different for different communities just like it always has been long before agrarian society kicked off.
> As for the brain washing bit that starts very young preparing the peasants to accept  the overlords as our savours stick with that model if you like and enjoy the bread crumbs
> 
> The culture BS is the wrong war and that's deliberate.
> 
> The health care example Knobby points out is a really in your face stark example.



Some good points. 

But IMO the culture war is the current cold war. Its a precursor to a different battle,  so I believe it is an important fight TBH.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Well you don't get into bed with them when starting a revolution....
> 
> The revolution will come from those fighting for freedom. Not from those trying to bully and limit others.
> 
> Trumps not a bloody threat, he can get voted out.
> The tech giants, Universities, media and other assorted loons are. The hive mind brainwashing that goes on is frankly astonishing. Not as much so as the otherwise intelligent people who lap it up.





Really Moxjo  ?  *"Trumps not a bloody threat " *In terms of being brain washed that has to be the clearest sign of a person who has swallowed the MAGA lie hook line and sinker.


----------



## basilio

*The Power of Trump. How to destroy diplomacy in one foul swoop*

Go back to anywhere, anytime and nations/empires recognise the need to establish diplomats or envoys to negotiate with other other parties. In the rules of diplomacy you don't expect diplomats from other countries to love you. They have to be nice to your face of course (that's diplomatic...) but their job is to take clear information back to their leaders to digest and respond.
*
When Donald Trump decides to destroy an allies chief diplomat becasue of a leaked  private conversation he is trashing the basis of  20th Century diplomacy. *In Britain's  case he is looking to establish a vassal state. 

* Kim Darroch has resigned. Now Britain risks becoming a vassal of the US *
Martin Kettle

The chief of Britain’s Foreign Office does nothing casually. He is a past master at saying nothing unintended in public. So when the Foreign Office permanent secretary, Simon McDonald, went before MPs this lunchtime after the devastating resignation of Britain’s Washington ambassador, Kim Darroch, his incisive directness was a revelation. It was the most eloquent evidence possible that the Darroch affair is not just a diplomatic storm but an existential challenge to Britain’s entire foreign policy.

What precedent was there, the foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat asked McDonald straight off, for the head of state of a friendly government to do what Donald Trump has done this week and make it impossible for Britain’s senior representative in that country to do his job? McDonald’s answer was monosyllabic, crisp and explosive. “None,” he said.

Labour’s Chris Bryant followed up. Surely there were precedents from unfriendly countries such as Venezuela? “I know of none,” McDonald replied again. Not even hostile states have behaved like Trump, he insisted. Had there been some distant occasion when a British ambassador fell foul of the White House in such a way? There was, McDonald admitted, a “difficulty” in 1856, when President Franklin Pierce accused the British ambassador of recruiting Americans to fight in the Crimean war. The listeners in committee room 16 laughed, but McDonald did not.

And then came in many ways the most extraordinary remark of the lot. “Nothing like this has ever happened before,” McDonald told another MP. “There must be consequences. What they are in detail I can’t tell you this afternoon.”
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ritain-risks-becoming-vassal-to-united-states


----------



## wayneL

One *fell* swoop, @basilio. 

And apart from the embarrassing malapropism,  that analysis is bullsh/t... even more embarrassingly a symptom of TDS. 

The ambassador fxcked up,  facilitated by whomever leaked it. 

The more interesting question is who leaked it,  and what was their motive?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> One *fell* swoop, @basilio.
> *The ambassador fxcked up,   ?*
> 
> The more interesting question is who leaked it,  and what was their motive?




Che ?  In what universe does the diplomat  "fxck up" when telling his government in a  secure coded message his clear view of the capacities of other politicians ?  I'd be totally confident that every diplomat would offer frank and fearless observations where necessary. And in Donald Trumps  case they would all say much the same thing.  It would be a total failure on their part* not *to be so clear.

The motive behind the leak ?  The Russians trying to destabilize  UK ? Brexit politicians who want to get rid of a significant pro EU diplomat ? Wannabe PM's who want to create a  public service in their  image  (as Donald Trump does) ?

The police have been called in and apparently it might not be too hard to finger the culprit.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-trump-darroch-new-phase-special-relationship


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Che ?  In what universe does the diplomat  "fxck up" when telling his government in a  secure coded message his clear view of the capacities of other politicians ?  I'd be totally confident that every diplomat would offer frank and fearless observations where necessary. And in Donald Trumps  case they would all say much the same thing.  It would be a total failure on their part* not *to be so clear.
> 
> The motive behind the leak ?  The Russians trying to destabilize  UK ? Brexit politicians who want to get rid of a significant pro EU diplomat ? Wannabe PM's who want to create a  public service in their  image  (as Donald Trump does) ?
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-trump-darroch-new-phase-special-relationship



Yet,  the US economy steams on better than ever. 

...and,  stop quoting that biased commie sh/trag, The Guardian, if you want any credible analysis. It's not good for your TDS pathology.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Yet,  the US economy steams on better than ever.
> 
> ...and,  stop quoting that biased commie sh/trag, The Guardian, if you want any credible analysis. It's not good for your TDS pathology.




 I don't see how "The US economy steams on.. ect B/S" has anything to do with undermining international diplomacy. Do you have anything intelligent to say on the topic ?


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> I don't see how "The US economy steams on.. ect B/S" has anything to do with undermining international diplomacy. Do you have anything intelligent to say on the topic ?



It goes to the competence of the administration, basilio. This was the substance of the leaked email, now wasn't it?

If there are any diplomatic failure is it is on the part of the British administration. It is them that has made the relationship between the ambassador  and the Trump administration untenable.

It is only someone with a rabid Trump derangement syndrome that could possibly make all of this Trumps fault. Therefore if you're looking for someone to cast aspersions upon their intelligence, look no further than your mirror.


----------



## SirRumpole

Diplomats are supposed to be diplomatic aren't they ?

Getting emotional about Trump and calling him names does nothing to help the situation.

Don't people realise these days that any form of electronic communication can be hacked or leaked ? Like all microphones are open. 

The UK ambassador to the US made a mistake by putting such language in an email and he paid the price.

But yes the UK has a bigger issue, who leaked the email and why. We could also ask who leaked Trump's call with Malcolm Turnbull about the refugee deal. 

Confidentiality isn't what it used to be.


----------



## kahuna1

SirRumpole said:


> We could also ask who leaked Trump's call with Malcolm Turnbull about the refugee deal.




Ok ...* I admit it*.
I thought it was rude of some idiot president to scream at our PM and then HANG up on him .... and when they eventually met, he was 45 minutes late.

We act ... for OUR interests, our nations and our peoples, as did the ambassador for the UK ... he is the man on the ground and able to give a frank view of what they as a nation, the UK is dealing with.

Trump, had his media meeting today and he ... is becoming more unhinged when he doesn't invite even twitter.

If someone told me ... a USA president would communicate via twitter and verbally abuse, mock those fleeing persecution  and even threaten war so far on 3 nations, whilst actually killing in 6 nations and supporting the Yemen genocide of 300,000 people in 2019 all  for arms sales ...

I would have ... actually told you you were nuts to suggest that in 2016. A person actually having a tantrum on twitter ? A psychotic break during an interview ? So many cases of projections accusing someone of doing something, they just did ?

Hopefully some other leaks come out on how the relations of this maniac are seen by other nations.


----------



## basilio

There is nothing untoward about diplomats/politicians/whoever saying what they observe of other politicians in the course of their private reports. 

There is absolutely nothing out of line with a diplomat reporting his frank unvarnished observation of what he sees in another country. The British diplomat was in fact reporting what he he both saw and heard and the observations of others in the White House. There are plenty of  Trump ex ministers who called him a moron, unhinged, etc.

Somebody decided to embarrass the  diplomat by scanning his confidential emails, picking out the choicest comments over a a 2 year period and leaking them to the Mail.

*It was Trumps decision to abuse Kim Darroch for doing his job and then deciding he would not accept him as a diplomat that has undermined  international diplomacy. *In the broad spectrum of  tearing up international agreements, attempting to overthrow unfriendly governments, starting trade wars , destroying the trust of  long term allies and promoting the rise of extreme right wing  nationalists around the world this is just small potatoes. Maybe.


----------



## wayneL

I wonder if it was Hillary what you'd think,  bas. I would gamble it would be very different.


----------



## kahuna1

Ahh ... he is so so so stable.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Really Moxjo  ?  *"Trumps not a bloody threat " *In terms of being brain washed that has to be the clearest sign of a person who has swallowed the MAGA lie hook line and sinker.



Yeah hurt feelings don't count.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Yeah hurt feelings don't count.




Total denial is pretty useless as well.


----------



## wayneL

The irony,  the irony.


----------



## IFocus

What makes me smile is apparently Trump was the only person in the world that didn't know the facts that the UK's ambassador passed on to the UK government.

None of this was a revelation.....was it.


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> What makes me smile is apparently Trump was the only person in the world that didn't know the facts that the UK's ambassador passed on to the UK government.
> 
> None of this was a revelation.....was it.




The Pope - a Catholic !! 

Bears...  in the wood .  

Trump - an unstable, lying, narcissist


----------



## wayneL

Guys,  which lunatic from the Dems do you prefer to have their @ss handed to them next November?


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump tells born in the USA citizens to "go back where they came from".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07...sswomen-to-go-back-to-home-countries/11308368


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Total denial is pretty useless as well.



Whos in total denial? 
I've expressed my feelings about trump before. Guys an idiot  (or a genius).

But lets look at current events:
US economy is doing good.

More employed people of color then ever before.

Attempting to move manufacturing back to the US. Which is not only good for their economy,  but also the environment as there are stricter laws in the US. Communist govt in China is evil, best not to be making them rich.

Pressure on both Russia and China. Obama let these two out of the bag. Possibly the worst thing you could have done. Russia and China are extremely dangerous. With real concentration camps not media made lies. The fact the left and media bleets about Trump instead of Putin and Xi makes you think. China is already pushing for  strategic positions around the Pacific.

Democrats are retards. You want lies,  look at the Democrats. I wouldn't trust them running a cake stall. They have concocted some of the biggest lies in history. Which is saying something as trump is in office.

Immigration in the US.
They can't just have open borders. Problems arise in many different forms.

The rise of authoritarianism.
This is rising on both sides. But the left in the US has taken it to a new level. Large companies are also pushing the erosion.

No new wars (yet).
Trump even warned the installations he had bombed so everyone could get out.
As opposed to previous president’s who happily droned the hell out of civi's.

Theres a lot more (also a long list I don't like about trump). But whats the alternative? The Democrats have no one. They don't have a plan. And you have multiple world powers exploiting the chaos. AOC is more idiotic then anyone I've seen and theres some stiff competition.

But some of the retarded cr@p people post up about Trump from outlets with agendas is what makes me shake my head. I could start a thread on Democrats that would have enough material for the next 100years. But we already have the looney left thread. And pointing out faults in politicians is a zero sum game.

The actual democrats that sat at center have been silenced. And its a shame.


----------



## kahuna1

moXJO said:


> More employed people of color then ever before.




Ahh /// participation rate falling ... for NON whites.
Pay is $8.25 an hour for over 20 million MAINLY non whites.
All time record in arrears on car loan and lease at 7 million, more than GFC
Homeless up 25% post 2016

Net worth of bottom 50% IS NOW NEGATIVE ....
Lower 80% including all middle class own a mere 7% of net wealth ... been going on for a while but down 6% post 2015.

All non whites ... just  told to go back home by Trump who himself is  a second generation German

Drug prices for simple things like Ibuterol for asthma is 10 times price in Canada or Mexico let alone Australia ... same for Insulin and a whole lot of others drugs.

Trump, merely an open racist and idiotic person who thinks because he is white, American ... rules all others including whites in any nation, let alone colored or shoot ... Indians or Chinese ... is delusional.

Thinking manufacturing will ever go back to the USA ... the labor cost of $3- an hour means it never will and even if  manufacturer was so inclined to move back due to tariffs ... they are and will not ENDURE ...

Sure the media ... who has paid adds ... so its not going to bite the hand that feeds it is in some cases like FOX a total bunch of racist Klu Klux Clan members

Does not mean Trump mind you does not get re-elected in 2020. So so many racists and religious nutjobs support Trump ... and ignore any faults .

Rest of the world, meanwhile, now an exposed side of USA we pretended did not exist, the openly WHITE only master race who is superior in every way to anyone else and ONE must be American White, the rest don't count, maybe worked in  1933 ... but for the USA it never went away, ever some of the most fervent supporters of Eugencis and White master race still endure and keep all Hispanics and Muslims and Non White people at bay.






Whilst not great one of those .....

The principles ... of Eugenics and master white superiority ...
Here is the IDIOT HIMSELF ...



Is he any different from say founder of Bill Gates favorite charity and Warren Buffett ?



Whilst pro choice .... Planned parenthood and its founder where Gates father headed the organization for many years ... is and always has been so racist its astounding.

Buffet also donates to openly racist house member of their goverment Steve King and his son ... 3 billion of daddy's ,money leads parties to hunt on the Mexican border ... hence the wall ...

Must keep those Mexicans out ... Warren Buffets father .... was a republican senator and so far right and member of the John Birch society a renowned Holocaust denier  ... *

Yes Buffet's name is proudly on the list !!*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

What a bunch of racist toss pots they all are ... !!


----------



## basilio

The story of Hitler in Los Angeles is a beauty..  It says a lot about recognizing the rise of resurgence of right wing extremism today.


----------



## wayneL

@moXJO Trump definitely not "presidential", he is a master shxtlord though. In the modern era of social media (and MSM) dominated by the extreme left, that may actually be genius. He continuously triggers the loony lefties into an unreasonable rage and taking positions nobody except the extreme left could support.

Just look at the Dem nominee line up. The only reasonably sane candidate is Tulsi (who won't get the nom). The rest are psychos or forced to pander to psychos....  Jesus,  even Bernie is one of the more moderate ones.

I reckon Trump has crafted that quite successfully, prompting there to be unelectable panderers and nutjobs, never understanding they've been played as idiots.

We'll see if I'm right in due course.


----------



## IFocus

TBH I don't think the outcome of Trumps administration or lack off will be measured / known for 10 to 20 years later similar to Bushes Iraq war and the mess that created / still exists.

The big runs may be scored possibly by a conservative Supreme Court rather than Trumps administration which lets face it is divisive and regressive on many fronts and defender of wealthy vested interest.


----------



## IFocus




----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> View attachment 96186



You know "the shovel" is a satire site...

Theres a lot of high ranking people that can get caught up in this.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> You know "the shovel" is a satire site...
> 
> Theres a lot of high ranking people that can get caught up in this.



Many whom have been hastily redacted on the interwebz as close associates, to create the false narrative that Trump is the prime suspect.


----------



## Knobby22

Satire is funny because it's got an element of truth.







moXJO said:


> You know "the shovel" is a satire site...
> 
> Theres a lot of high ranking people that can get caught up in this.


----------



## wayneL

You think trump is a pedo, @Knobby22 ?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> You think trump is a pedo, @Knobby22 ?



An element of truth. We know he prefers grown women. Bigger and hairier crotches.
Heard of the word apologist?


----------



## wayneL

Wow,  okay,  we shall see.


----------



## kahuna1

Geee ....

I made the above post .... well prior to the tide going out and the racist remarks Trump chose to share.
Not about someone complaining  about their nation, about ELECTED officials who are trying to make things better.

When confronted, Trump being the racist pig that he is .... HE doubled down ... calling them anti Semitic ... all because ONE chose to mention that the JPAC ... Jewish political donation committee in the USA and its affiliate lobby groups contribute a massive 78 million EACH YEAR to USA Washington senators and house elected officials.

I am more agog, if possible he then went on the record to CLAIM one worshiped Alquada and CLAIM she had. SHE FLED religious idiots .... FLED them ... in Somalia ...

Not even happy there, he again .... AGAIN >.. claimed she liked when the planes went in 9/11 ...  all because she was giving a speech and said about children being bullied in the schoolyard aged 6 ... in 2019 ... DID NOT CARE about something that happened in 2001 and it was NOT relevant as to WHY they were being attacked.

THis buffoon who supposedly is Morrison's new bestie and USA and Australia see eye to eye ... according to our PM ...

This elected representative in Washington ... who is a USA citizen ... was already getting death threats prior to this stunt by Trump posting on twitter a plane from 9/11 and going WE CARE .... taking deliberately out fo context that a 6 year old being beaten up in the schoolyard DOES NOT CARE or give a stuff about 9/11 as to why they are being treated differently ....

This time .... Trump ... doubles down ... because NO ONE pulled him up last time for being a racist WHITE ONLY .... dictator who actually views all those below him. all non whites, all non white AMERICANS .... and that includes ALL AUSTRALIANS ... we are subhumans irrespective of color or creed ...

It is time to withdraw from ANZUS .... Call our ambassador BACK ... for consultations and REVIEW our support for the regime which has taken over the USA which we love and the people we OWE and not the draft dodging non tax paying corrupt ... greedy ,,, breed which inhabits the halls of USA power.

We ... may have won the cold war, or they did ... the price was not just democracy but also humanity. Calling say the democrats asking for universal decent healthcare, communists, or socialists, when even the Liberal party which is ever so slightly to the right of labor ... and compared to the USA ruling elite ... are we all communists ? Or socialists ?

I fear for the next 17 months and 2020 election, and god forbid another term. The planet cannot afford it and if it takes us going PAUSE .... on our relationship due to a dictator being in charge and policy driven by whatever Oligarchy member or group wants, its sadly back to the 1930's and far right where 3 million clan members which was 5% of the USA adult population almost saw what is shared in the above.

It never went away. Most are ashamed and try to slowly deal with past awful events. Not when you have amnesia and delusions that you are great. America and its people as a whole are our very good friend. NOT when we have say Microsoft not booking 3 billion in sales and avoiding 300 million in GST alone a year and Google the same ... we complain ? Well France just did and threatened with tariffs and sanctions as a result.

A friend does not steal ... and I use the word correctly, STEAL 30 billion in tax a year from Australia.
A friend we want to know and be friends with does NOT support a genocide in Yemen as shared the interview here with Trump and 300,000 dead in 2019.

A friend and one we wish to associate with does NOT entice and encourage a member of Parliament or in their case the house, who has been elected, a friend does NOT encourage and entice someone already with hundreds of death threats for his followers, full of hate, that said elected official will likely get THOUSANDS MORE.

A friend does NOT hang up on the PM of our country. A friend does then not make said PM wait 45 mins to meet him when they eventually meet.

A friend does NOT threaten another with tariffs or punitive measures as USA did under Trump.

A Friend does NOT openly or covertly be racist and spread HATE.

At least a friend I wish to be friends with.

Mr Morrison .... I do NOT use Prime Minister because we as a NATION ... have a lot to be proud of, and things we must examine and be ashamed of or regret and grow and change. Faced with open and pure hatred based upon color of their skin, a superiority because they are American they can NOW do what the hell they like to OUR nation by not paying taxes, NOT even behave like evolved humans and treat in 2019 minorities WORSE than we have to some minorities over the years.

Are you a man ? OR a mouse ? Or merely a parking space for white supremacy and our nation is forfeit to these beliefs ?

Maybe the Prime Minister who was silent about so so many things is just like Trump. Sadly so.

This behavior is NO LONGER acceptable in any way shape or form. Intolerance and hate is what this man is, he claims, and projects the accusation of hate onto the people when he, himself ... is now accused of raping the same 13 year old girl as the sicko now charged. This is number 23 of these claims.

USA will, eventually, hopefully, find democracy again, but sadly with no free press, muzzled goverment agencies hiding in the dark a foreign policy which encourages and accepts genocide for selling arms over human lives and all the rest. ....

Have we lost our minds even associating with such people ?
Great leaders are created, sometimes through tragedy.

I suspect Morrison is NOT up to the task. Please resign and get someone with a backbone and take a pause with USA .... if not a total rethink on our relationship prior to the USA one day going well ... we abandon YOU ... Australia and demand you do this or else.

Sadly that's already occurred ...

Please ACT ... Mr Morrison .... Or Resign and the party can elect someone else. It would be better if this decision was a bi-partisan one ... both parties examined the RELATIONSHIP ... one that is abusive to the tune of 30 billion a year, let alone how many times we have followed the USA post 1945, it NO longer even closely represents the WILL or desires of our ONCE .... ONCE great nation.


*Please ACT ... Mr Morrison .... Or Resign and the party can elect someone else.*

We no longer NEED or desire friends like this. Then again, I am sure, many will wet themselves over the above, such is democracy. Sadly, economics and Macro side, we as a nation cannot continue to afford to NOT collect 1.5% of GDP in tax so Mr Zukerburg can collect it. Nor if Amazon takes off ... aged 25 ... worth 1 trillion USD ... has NEVER ... not once in 25 years paid any company tax. On and on I could go ...Apple ... Google ... Chevron .. 

*Please ACT ... Mr Morrison .... Or Resign and the party can elect someone else.*


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Satire is funny because it's got an element of truth.



No it tries to dirty the truth. 
And is sometimes funny.

Bill Clinton apparently flew on the "lolita express" with Epstein and Kevin spacey. He was also alleged to have been spotted on pedo island but his office denied that. 

Theres to many lies and bs coming out from both sides now to sift through. 

Anyway the news cycle shifted to "Trumps a racist". Too many democrat donors being outed as rapists, women beaters and pedos.


----------



## Knobby22

I'm not the one who bragged about grabbing them.







wayneL said:


> Wow,  okay,  we shall see.


----------



## Knobby22

Ever watched Utopia, Yes Minister? Very funny. I know they are on the ABC so probably not.

Defending by talking about Bill Clinton? What has that got to do with anything? Tribal behaviour..
Classic apologist.



moXJO said:


> No it tries to dirty the truth.
> And is sometimes funny.
> 
> Bill Clinton apparently flew on the "lolita express" with Epstein and Kevin spacey. He was also alleged to have been spotted on pedo island but his office denied that.
> 
> Theres to many lies and bs coming out from both sides now to sift through.
> 
> Anyway the news cycle shifted to "Trumps a racist". Too many democrat donors being outed as rapists, women beaters and pedos.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Apologist.



For what. Pedophilia?
Get fuc&*&.

There is a blatant attempt to direct the narrative. All sides were caught up in this. Heads should roll. But baseless accusations are not the truth.


----------



## wayneL

The TDS is strong, @moXJO


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> The TDS is strong, @moXJO



Seriously.....


----------



## Knobby22

Read what I said later. Honestly







moXJO said:


> For what. Pedophilia?
> Get fuc&*&.
> 
> There is a blatant attempt to direct the narrative. All sides were caught up in this. Heads should roll. But baseless accusations are not the truth.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Read what I said later. Honestly



Oh please.
Thats not defending trump.
His history as a general shtbag is well known.

But lets shine the fu@ken light at the dark corners. Instead of cheap points at trump.


----------



## IFocus

Actually who Trump associates with, supports and his statements do matter.

There will be no light on those dark places while he defends them.

The Clintons will never be a defence or excuse for Trump.

The TDS defence is a poor distraction


----------



## kahuna1

Hi,

Both sides of USA politics are dependent totally on donations.
As such, the Princeton study which looked at over 2,500 votes over 20 years where the PUBLIC interest was for a policy to go through, it DID NOT MATTER ... it had 28% chance of going through even with 80% of the public supporting it. If the corporate interest was to say cut taxes or relax rules or give a tax break, the converse ... 85% was the chance of it going through.

This I would say is a distraction ... Trump  style ... accused of sexually assaulting a 13 year old with a witness to boot ... he accuses someone of being anti Semitic and then is openly racist.

Its better to have people focused on you being a racist than a child molester.

It is ... way way way off the charts the antics of the USA right now.
Nixon was a saint !! 

Oct 2016 ... it was 16 ...
_Sixteen women have come forward with allegations against President Donald Trump, each accusing him of inappropriate conduct. The most recent, from writer and columnist E. Jean Carroll, appeared in NY Magazine on Friday._
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/assault-allegations-donald-trump-recapped

Now its 23 ... and we KNOW of the 16 in October he paid off at least TWO ... prior to the election.

*A few weeks ago, a federal lawsuit was filed in the state of New York naming Donald Trump as one of two alleged rapists of a 13 year old girl. Despite the gravity of the allegations, the lawsuit seems to have been largely ignored by mainstream media*

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/th...ul-men-to-avoid-scrutiny-20160703-gpxp28.html

Add to this ... Iran deal torn up out of spite for Obama ... even today claiming Iran is speaking to them ... denied ... by Iran ... Iran is willing to speak about its missiles ... again denied ...

On and on and on this goes.

Mr Morrison ... do you actually have a spine ? It is time ... to take a break from ANZUS ... 

Britain did NOT follow into Vietnam ... France said get stuffed in 2003 for Iraq ....

*We follow where the pedophile leads ?

 I would normally give the benefit of the doubt .... but sadly with so so many .... I am not stupid. *

Well done Mr Prime Minister of Australia ... no comment even on the racist tweets ... so far 37 nations ... even Canada ,,, have said something. Not our spineless toad ...

Please get rid of this person Liberal party and appoint someone ... ANYONE ... with a spine.


----------



## kahuna1

Another day ... another racist remark 

Was not aware how racist America was, even having lived there, till I looked. One out of 250 lower house republicans are BLACK ... African American ... ONE ...

We I now sadly see are SUB HUMAN not being white, and NOT being American. Irrespective of our origins, we are ,,, beneath them.
Today's fun ?

What does one pervert and pedophile say to the other ? 

Maybe you can lip read .... Trump claims he was not friends and BLAH BLAH BLAH .... well my eyes are telling a different story ..




AN aside,
I await our PM actually doing something to our relationship with the USA ....

DISTANCE ... or are we just the same ?


----------



## wayneL

@kahuna1 can you please quote verbatum what remarks of trump's that you think are racist


----------



## wayneL

Also, AOC has accused pelosi of being racist. I would like to ask you if you think that is true, that Nancy is a racist?


----------



## wayneL

Third question, do you think anyone except the extreme leftist outrage  mob gives a crap?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Third question, do you think anyone except the extreme leftist outrage  mob gives a crap?




I have been reading a few articles about this.

There are Republicans with concerns however Trump has such a hold of the party now that they do not dare voice their own views in public. Jeb Bush who could speak Spanish was seen as a person who could win votes on all sides. He could not hold the Republican vote this way.

Trump saw they way to victory was by aiming for the poorer white voters who were feeling disenfranchised by their losing their advantages and the people worried about immigration. "Build the wall".  

Polling recently showed most Republicans are upset there will be a black Little Mermaid in the latest Disney adaption. It all plays into Trumps populism.  

As long as Trump can hold these people and keep the ruling elites in advantage then he will be heavily backed for a second term.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I have been reading a few articles about this.
> 
> There are Republicans with concerns however Trump has such a hold of the party now that they do not dare voice their own views in public. Jeb Bush who could speak Spanish was seen as a person who could win votes on all sides. He could not hold the Republican vote this way.
> 
> Trump saw they way to victory was by aiming for the poorer white voters who were feeling disenfranchised by their losing their advantages and the people worried about immigration. "Build the wall".
> 
> Polling recently showed most Republicans are upset there will be a black Little Mermaid in the latest Disney adaption. It all plays into Trumps populism.
> 
> As long as Trump can hold these people and keep the ruling elites in advantage then he will be heavily backed for a second term.



Extremists are not the majority. 
The swing voters will vote for best economy and US security policy.


----------



## SirRumpole

I have a feeling that Trump's association with Epstein has further to run as does his failure to disclose his tax returns.

The Dems will wait until it's too late to refute the dirt before the next election.


----------



## basilio

One of the last people in the Trump administration willing to talk truth has left. 
The Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats has departed and will be replaced by another toadying Trump sycophant.

And this is a position that requires a careful honest analysis of all the intelligence used to make critical national decisions.. 

*Dan Coats Spoke Truth to Trump. Now He’s Out.*
The director of national intelligence won plaudits for plainly laying out the intelligence community’s assessments on issues ranging from Iran to Russia, putting him at odds with the president.

Dan Coats attracted President Donald Trump’s ire on more than one occasion as the director of national intelligence, describing assessments on issues from Russia to North Korea that contradicted Trump’s own. On Sunday night, his time in office came to an end: Trump said, via Twitter, that Coats was stepping down, to be replaced by Republican Representative John Ratcliffe.

Coats lasted two years in office—longer than many of Trump’s other national-security Cabinet officials, and longer than any other director of national intelligence save one, establishing along the way a reputation of being willing to offer Trump conclusions he might not want to hear. Yet this wasn’t just a workplace spat between boss and employee. It fit Trump’s widely documented pattern of disinterest in information that contradicts his instincts, and his inclination to punish people who offer it. Coats isn’t the first victim of these attitudes, and he won’t be the last.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/dan-coats-out/594952/


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> One of the last people in the Trump administration willing to talk truth has left.
> The Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats has departed and will be replaced by another toadying Trump sycophant.
> 
> And this is a position that requires a careful honest analysis of all the intelligence used to make critical national decisions..
> 
> *Dan Coats Spoke Truth to Trump. Now He’s Out.*
> The director of national intelligence won plaudits for plainly laying out the intelligence community’s assessments on issues ranging from Iran to Russia, putting him at odds with the president.
> 
> Dan Coats attracted President Donald Trump’s ire on more than one occasion as the director of national intelligence, describing assessments on issues from Russia to North Korea that contradicted Trump’s own. On Sunday night, his time in office came to an end: Trump said, via Twitter, that Coats was stepping down, to be replaced by Republican Representative John Ratcliffe.
> 
> Coats lasted two years in office—longer than many of Trump’s other national-security Cabinet officials, and longer than any other director of national intelligence save one, establishing along the way a reputation of being willing to offer Trump conclusions he might not want to hear. Yet this wasn’t just a workplace spat between boss and employee. It fit Trump’s widely documented pattern of disinterest in information that contradicts his instincts, and his inclination to punish people who offer it. Coats isn’t the first victim of these attitudes, and he won’t be the last.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/dan-coats-out/594952/




When a lot of stable people leave the employ of one man, you have to reflect on the stability of that man.

James Comey, Jim Mattis, and now Coats, the list goes on.

The rednecks may like Trump, but people who can see reason know he's a loose cannon.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> The rednecks may like Trump, but people who can see reason know he's a loose cannon.



Maybe it isn't a case of liking, he isn't there to be liked, he is there to do a job.
To a certain degree, Winston Churchill, was a loose cannon, Bob Hawke was a loose cannon, Paul Keating was loose cannon and they weren't liked by a lot of the population.
Why is everyone hung up on this touchy, touchy, lovy, dovy crap, Trump is there to run the Country, he will be judged by the voters at the next election.
Same with Boris Johnson, next election the public of the U.K will judge him, he isn't there to be everyone's friend he probably knows that is impossible.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Maybe it isn't a case of liking, he isn't there to be liked, he is there to do a job.
> To a certain degree, Winston Churchill, was a loose cannon, Bob Hawke was a loose cannon, Paul Keating was loose cannon and they weren't liked by a lot of the population.
> Why is everyone hung up on this touchy, touchy, lovy, dovy crap, Trump is there to run the Country, he will be judged by the voters at the next election.
> Same with Boris Johnson, next election the public of the U.K will judge him, he isn't there to be everyone's friend he probably knows that is impossible.




Yep, well the voters were only too keen to get rid of Churchill once the war was over.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, well the voters were only too keen to get rid of Churchill once the war was over.



And so it should be, but the constant personal attacks really seem a bit pointless, well to me it does maybe to others it gives them a sense of relief.
But the constant chant does become a bit like a religious door knock, once in a while is o.k, but everyday it would tend to get on your nerves a bit.
You know what I mean, he is going to be impeached yehh, no he isn't.
He is going to be impeached, yehhh, no he isn't.
Boris hasn't even sat in the chair, and the chanting has started, Boris is as bad as Trump and here it starts again.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> And so it should be, but the constant personal attacks really seem a bit pointless, well to me it does maybe to others it gives them a sense of relief.
> But the constant chant does become a bit like a religious door knock, once in a while is o.k, but everyday it would tend to get on your nerves a bit.
> You know what I mean, he is going to be impeached yehh, no he isn't.
> He is going to be impeached, yehhh, no he isn't.
> Boris hasn't even sat in the chair, and the chanting has started, Boris is as bad as Trump and here it starts again.




You are right, the voters will judge him at the next election, but it's also a matter of how much damage he will do to domestic and global institutions before he goes.

Of course, this can be put right by the next person, but if he is making decisions on his own instincts rather than on evidence (a la G.W. Bush and weapons of mass destruction) then the possibility of some sort of disaster can't be ruled out.

Constant personal attacks are annoying , true, but his decision making capability needs to be seriously questioned.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, well the voters were only too keen to get rid of Churchill once the war was over.



Labour successfully smeared Churchill as a warmonger because of his (correct) distrust of the Soviets,  plus,  they promised a bunch of free shxt. 

In 1951, Churchill was again elected PM.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> You are right, the voters will judge him at the next election, but it's also a matter of how much damage he will do to domestic and global institutions before he goes.
> 
> Of course, this can be put right by the next person, but if he is making decisions on his own instincts rather than on evidence (a la G.W. Bush and weapons of mass destruction) then the possibility of some sort of disaster can't be ruled out.
> 
> Constant personal attacks are annoying , true, but his decision making capability needs to be seriously questioned.



Yes I agree, but I was more referring to the forum, if he is impeached or charged it is news, just to have every article about him posted up seems pointless. 
I'm just wondering if the same is now going to happen with Johnson.


----------



## basilio

The issue of impeachment is not simply that Donald Trump is nasty or racist or a liar.

The practical reasons for impeachment are dereliction of duty and misuse of office. Is this administration doing or allowing actions that undermine the democratic process ? 

Robert Mueller made it clear that the Russians were actively interfering with all USS states in the electoral process. This was proven. Yet the administration is completely ignoring these findings.

So what does one do ? This Democratic rep who had not previously supported impeachment explains her change of mind

*How Mitch McConnell Persuaded a Senior House Democrat to Back Impeachment*
It wasn’t Robert Mueller’s testimony that pushed Representative Katherine Clark over the edge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ine-clark-house-democrats-impeachment/595051/


----------



## Knobby22

Stock market crashing.
US economy debt massively increasing.
No sign tariffs are working.
Trump is definitely taking us all somewhere.

This is what happens when you let an unsuccessful businessman / reality show host run the worlds largest economy.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Stock market crashing.
> US economy debt massively increasing.
> No sign tariffs are working.
> Trump is definitely taking us all somewhere.
> 
> This is what happens when you let an unsuccessful businessman / reality show host run the worlds largest economy.



China is just playing currency games prior 2020.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> China is just playing currency games prior 2020.



Yes, they won't deal on the possibility Trump may lose the next election. They can play the long game.
How do you see this panning out moXJO?


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, they won't deal on the possibility Trump may lose the next election. They can play the long game.
> How do you see this panning out moXJO?



Its bad for Australia if trump wins. 
US wants to pivot into Aus. Not good from our point of view. But China is a huge threat. Its using its weight to bully and intimidate. And unfortunately Xi jinping ain't moving from top spot. 

Trump is the only one of the candidates (for 2020) being able to weather the mass negative propaganda that will be thrown at them from China and Russia.
 The other candidates will wither and backflip. You can already see the others get bogged down in PC bulldust and then sitting on their hands. Russia,NK, Iran and China won't stop untill they stop the countries forward momentum.

The other candidates are about a decade behind in the power play that is going on globally.  China knows this and will tighten the screws on Trumps base. It's already stopped US farm goods. Then it will peddle doom and gloom to the US market. 
US will probably devalue as well. 
Trump is in no way guaranteed a 2020 win. I'm not sure how things will go if he does lose.



All that aside, we had some chinese  protesters in Brisbane that were for democracy. China organised about 300 pro government supporters to go and stand over them. The news was very quiet about it. This was in Australia. I was a little bit stunned that we are at this stage already.

Our relationship with both countries will be tested over the coming years.


----------



## Knobby22

I wonder if Trump may declare war on Iran in an attempt to win the election.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Trump is the only one of the candidates (for 2020) being able to weather the mass negative propaganda that will be thrown at them from China and Russia.




Trump will win the election but note the Democrats pretty much always follow the same foreign  policy as the previous admin Obama carried on Bushes FP almost to every detail its a Yank thing not a political issue.

Dems would also declare war on Russia's interference to there domestic systems which needs to happen Repubs need to be hanged for treason.


----------



## kahuna1

With regret ...

At this stage the Democrats a total mess. Warren is nuts. Sorry but I am with them about universal medicare, paying 3 times as much as any nation does generates massive political donations.

Bernie, well, again has NO idea. Idiotic to actually think with a single payer, like our Medicare they will pay or agree to pay 3,4,5, and even 100 times the price for drugs, Or pay 4 times as much for a MRI .\

What will occur over time, the cover will rise from there awful 65% USA now has, awful for the lower 60% ... to near 100% ... and despite the rise in cover, the COST ... which is 20% of GDP ... despite a 150% better cover will go DOWN overall ... to where 65 other nations pay for healthcare at 10% or less ... for it. Bernie seems to MISS this ... totally. He sadly also has a few crosses to bear and media is so against him, little hope.

Biden, well .... he is already bought and paid for by corporate America and sadly, will be worse than Obama was. Worse than George W Bush which is saying something. Not as bad as Trump but ... the corruption will continue on with a mere better smokescreen.

Of the other contenders, Harris and Buttplug have little hope it seems.

I would prefer Bernie, but ... he has too many crosses from his past, his religion and his communist views. HE IS NOT communist ... or even socialist and sadly he lacks understanding of basic Economics.

This it seems leaves us with Trump .... or a Biden and whilst I would hope for Bernie and a fresh change to USA tax theft and foreign policy, unless Iowa primary is a surprise, its going to be a long long next 5 years.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that Bernie is actually doing way way better than the 12% behind Biden than he is, but there is little evidence I can hang my hat upon for a change. This sneaking suspicion is a disbelief of some of the polls taken and ones like FOX have Biden leading by 18% to Sanders, when others have it at 6%.

It could be of course a total surprise and take THAT .... much like AOC who on polling day was 16% behind the Democrat incumbent she kicked out as a Democrat running against a well funded corrupt politician. She won by 12% I think so the poll was totally wrong.

This however is the most followed election I suspect in decades and for the polls to be off by 20% and Bernie Sanders actually leading is for me a pipe dream. Some of the treatment he gets out of Fox is astounding. Fox news is a disgrace usually but on the Trump for 2020, it never wavers and any lie goes.

Should be an interesting next 14 months, but at this stage its not looking good.

Get used to the Bald, lying, racist state of affairs.

Ivanka 2024
Don Jr Trump 2028 and  2032 and then .... Barron Trump will he be old enough in 2036 ?


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> With regret ...
> 
> At this stage the Democrats a total mess. Warren is nuts. Sorry but I am with them about universal medicare, paying 3 times as much as any nation does generates massive political donations.
> 
> Bernie, well, again has NO idea. Idiotic to actually think with a single payer, like our Medicare they will pay or agree to pay 3,4,5, and even 100 times the price for drugs, Or pay 4 times as much for a MRI .\
> 
> What will occur over time, the cover will rise from there awful 65% USA now has, awful for the lower 60% ... to near 100% ... and despite the rise in cover, the COST ... which is 20% of GDP ... despite a 150% better cover will go DOWN overall ... to where 65 other nations pay for healthcare at 10% or less ... for it. Bernie seems to MISS this ... totally. He sadly also has a few crosses to bear and media is so against him, little hope.
> 
> Biden, well .... he is already bought and paid for by corporate America and sadly, will be worse than Obama was. Worse than George W Bush which is saying something. Not as bad as Trump but ... the corruption will continue on with a mere better smokescreen.
> 
> Of the other contenders, Harris and Buttplug have little hope it seems.
> 
> I would prefer Bernie, but ... he has too many crosses from his past, his religion and his communist views. HE IS NOT communist ... or even socialist and sadly he lacks understanding of basic Economics.
> 
> This it seems leaves us with Trump .... or a Biden and whilst I would hope for Bernie and a fresh change to USA tax theft and foreign policy, unless Iowa primary is a surprise, its going to be a long long next 5 years.
> 
> I do have a sneaking suspicion that Bernie is actually doing way way better than the 12% behind Biden than he is, but there is little evidence I can hang my hat upon for a change. This sneaking suspicion is a disbelief of some of the polls taken and ones like FOX have Biden leading by 18% to Sanders, when others have it at 6%.
> 
> It could be of course a total surprise and take THAT .... much like AOC who on polling day was 16% behind the Democrat incumbent she kicked out as a Democrat running against a well funded corrupt politician. She won by 12% I think so the poll was totally wrong.
> 
> This however is the most followed election I suspect in decades and for the polls to be off by 20% and Bernie Sanders actually leading is for me a pipe dream. Some of the treatment he gets out of Fox is astounding. Fox news is a disgrace usually but on the Trump for 2020, it never wavers and any lie goes.
> 
> Should be an interesting next 14 months, but at this stage its not looking good.
> 
> Get used to the Bald, lying, racist state of affairs.
> 
> Ivanka 2024
> Don Jr Trump 2028 and  2032 and then .... Barron Trump will he be old enough in 2036 ?



What was your take on Dems tearing down Obama? 
I was a little surprised.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I wonder if Trump may declare war on Iran in an attempt to win the election.



He is anti war and was actually anti guns. He was originally going to run for Democrats until Obama roasted him. He was very good friends with hillary. I bet they are all kicking themselves now. All that for bad jokes....

I doubt he will start a war,  bad for business. More likely back door deals.


----------



## kahuna1

moXJO said:


> What was your take on Dems tearing down Obama?
> I was a little surprised.




Obama was bribed and paid for. HE sounded better than Bush .... he actually was worse. WORSE. Healthcare went massively backwards, pensions ... not a single person went to jail for GFC ... his whole treasury was ex Goldman Sachs people ... basically scum ... much like Cohen and Munckin Trump had and still has.

At the core of this, democrats and republicans are the same ... bribed political suits. Some exceptions who DONT take corporate donations, but they are less than 10 out of 380 .... AOC and her crew ... Bernie and a few scant others.

Obama was better at PR ... claiming he wanted a $15- an hour wage ... the next day ... he was speaking at Walmart asking the owners, the Walton family ... for political donations.

USA is what it is ...now ... a broken democracy back in the 1920's with no rules for the rich, open racial discrimination and ... well he difference is the Military Industrial complex is one of the few things the USA makes ... weapons ... so it means the USA is at war ... forever. Big business ... 600 billion annual sales.

USA back then ... was not interested in anyone else ... WW1 they almost missed ... WW2 the same ... 

Now, well they encourage fighting between Arab states so as they don't attack Israel ... steal hundreds of billions in unpaid tax each year globally ... and free trade is what its called ... and if we complain now, like France just did your threatened with sanctions and tariffs for actually trying to collect taxes in your own nation.

Obama on the war issue ... well he green lighted the Libya stuff ... 1 million dead ... he sold weapons to Saudis and they tried exterminating the Houthis .... Obama green lighted drone strikes with no oversight in 8 nations and ... well managed to keep the wars going.

No Obama was NOT good and in fact worse than Bush ... Deficit exploded, tax collection shrank, people in the nation go worse and worse health cover and wages when the Correct inflation rate is used saw their wages in the USA shrink.

NO ... he was the worst ever .... till Trump and made Old George Senior and his war war war look like a saint ... Clinton was NOT good, he tried but was busy giving dicktation .... George Junior was horrible and Obama for all his hype.. ... was pathetic and did NOTHING for African Americans. NOT A THING.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> He is anti war and was actually anti guns. He was originally going to run for Democrats until Obama roasted him. He was very good friends with hillary. I bet they are all kicking themselves now. All that for bad jokes....
> 
> I doubt he will start a war,  bad for business. More likely back door deals.



Yes, true. It's Pompeo's influence that has me worried.


----------



## Knobby22

From Mish blog

In Trump’s Trade Quagmire (Wonkish), Krugman notes the obvious "_He just keeps escalating as his strategy fails_."

Remember the Vietnam quagmire? Well, here’s my thought: Trump’s trade war is looking more and more like a classic policy quagmire. It’s not working — that is, it isn’t at all delivering the results Trump wants. But he’s even less willing than the average politician to admit to a mistake, so he keeps doing even more of what’s not working. And if you extrapolate based on that insight, the implications for the U.S. and world economies are starting to get pretty scary.

*Krugman's Five Points*


The trade war is getting big. Tariffs on Chinese goods are back to levels we associate with pre-1930s protectionism. And the trade war is reaching the point where it becomes a significant drag on the U.S. economy.
The trade war is failing in its goals, at least as Trump sees them: the Chinese aren’t crying uncle, and the trade deficit is rising, not falling.
The Fed probably can’t offset the harm the trade war is doing, and is probably getting less willing even to try.
Trump is likely to respond to his disappointments by escalating, with tariffs on more stuff and more countries, and — despite denials — in the end, with currency intervention.
Other countries will retaliate, and this will get very ugly, very fast.


https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...-kudlow-won-t-comment-DygrAVx42kiOYeDw-vIZIw/


----------



## wayneL

I wouldn't be quoting Krugman if I wanted my credibility intact.   In fact, just WTF has happened to Mish. 

This Mish is a different Mish than the Mish I once read.


----------



## Knobby22

Maybe you have changed.







wayneL said:


> I wouldn't be quoting Krugman if I wanted my credibility intact.   In fact, just WTF has happened to Mish.
> 
> This Mish is a different Mish than the Mish I once read.


----------



## moXJO

Just on the quiet, Chinese business is feeling the pinch. China will go broke before the US falls. Unfortunately we will probably get one hell of a recession. I'm hoping it gets resolved quickly.


----------



## qldfrog

If Chins falls, and so far, US is winning economically, we indeed will pay the price.Maybe it is a bit of karma: associating with the bully ends not well for the minions when justice fights back.
We lost everything and became a Third world economy selling sun,language,farm goods and dirt in the progress
What Trump is doing is good for the West and for democracy but indeed terrible for us
What does this mean for Australia actual position?
Maybe we are not really a western democracy anymore ?
Food for thoughts


----------



## sptrawler

China needs to drop in line, it will reduce their growth, but guarantee continued growth. They can't just expect the World to stand by, while they decimate every Countries industries, by dumping their product everywhere at a reduced price.
That policy was fine and accepted, while there was a marked difference in the quality of the product they were selling, then the first World product could hold its own on the 'you get what you pay for' basis.
The problem now is, China's product and manufacturing standards are improving, but they aren't changing the price of it to reflect the added cost. For World trade to work there has to be a situation where countries manufacturing costs, are reflected in the price of the product, otherwise inefficient use of raw materials and energy are encouraged.
China really does need to come to an agreement, otherwise it will end badly.
Just my opinion.


----------



## wayneL

By Reid Latham (A must read)

1. Cory Booker says he wants to punch our President.
2. Joe Biden says he wants to beat up our President.
3. Maxine Waters says to get in Republicans' faces out in public.
4. Jimmy Kimmel and other late night hosts joke about assassinating our President.
5. Snoop Dog makes a video of a fake assassination of our President.
6. Kathy Griffin poses with a severed bloody head of our President.
7. Johnny Depp jokes about assassinating our President.
8. Madonna says she wants to blow up the White House.
9. Black Lives Matter chants they want dead cops and fry 'em like bacon.
10. Antifa routinely assaults Conservatives.
11. AOC calls our border agents Nazis and refuses to condemn violence against them.
12. The so-called "Squad" supports terrorists of Palestine and Hamas and routinely spews anti semitic rhetoric.
13. Congress refuses to call out Ilhan Omar for making anti semitic remarks.
14. Rashida Tlaib calls our President a motherf**ker.

Yet President Trump is the one inciting hatred and violence? SMH....


----------



## Knobby22

http://www.bestgames.com/Punch-The-Trump


----------



## Knobby22

http://www.crazygames.com/game/punch-hillary


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> By Reid Latham (A must read)
> 
> 1. Cory Booker says he wants to punch our President.
> 2. Joe Biden says he wants to beat up our President.
> 3. Maxine Waters says to get in Republicans' faces out in public.
> 4. Jimmy Kimmel and other late night hosts joke about assassinating our President.
> 5. Snoop Dog makes a video of a fake assassination of our President.
> 6. Kathy Griffin poses with a severed bloody head of our President.
> 7. Johnny Depp jokes about assassinating our President.
> 8. Madonna says she wants to blow up the White House.
> 9. Black Lives Matter chants they want dead cops and fry 'em like bacon.
> 10. Antifa routinely assaults Conservatives.
> 11. AOC calls our border agents Nazis and refuses to condemn violence against them.
> 12. The so-called "Squad" supports terrorists of Palestine and Hamas and routinely spews anti semitic rhetoric.
> 13. Congress refuses to call out Ilhan Omar for making anti semitic remarks.
> 14. Rashida Tlaib calls our President a motherf**ker.
> 
> Yet President Trump is the one inciting hatred and violence? SMH....



They can't all be wrong.


----------



## Knobby22

Macquack said:


> They can't all be wrong.



They're all talkers, blowhards.
It takes a proper Alt Right person to actually go out and do a bit of killing.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> They're all talkers, blowhards.
> It takes a proper Alt Right person to actually go out and do a bit of killing.



Well if we looking at the situation in Toto over the last say, 100 years, the extreme rights got a hell of a long way to go to catch up with the left

They are tens of millions behind


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> They're all talkers, blowhards.
> It takes a proper Alt Right person to actually go out and do a bit of killing.



And what is it, three days? Since you forgot that the Dayton shooter was an antifa supporter?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> And what is it, three days? Since you forgot that the Dayton shooter was an antifa supporter?



Exactly, the far right and the far left are two sides of the same coin. Same bully philosophy  same result. They both dress like storm troopers.Just different tribes.

I dislike Nazis and Communists and Pol Pot types equally.

Like to find out his thinking for killing Mexicans and how that serves his cause.


----------



## wayneL

Here's what I find troubling @Knobby22 , exactly what we are calling the extremes?

There are actually very few at the the extremes. White nationalists anf the true alt right are very small in number.  Those mostly accused of being alt right,  aren't.

The extreme left is a bigger tribe, but still a small minority, relative to everyone else. 

There are s whole bunch being sucked in the the narrative however, by  the highly visible players and the media,  desperate to gain revenue.

Topical - Raheem in no extremist,  just and ex muslim conservative. On the right for sure,  but in no way extreme,  ore alt-right. 

Kennealy is simply politicking in the most egregious way for her own agenda, usung the current divisive lunacy to try to benefit (might backfire on her though).


----------



## Knobby22

The Alt Right and Far Left don't really have any core beliefs in my opinion, it's all culture war to them and a chance to form tribes and bash each other on the media and in person if possible.

For instance the Conservatives such as Mish are up in arms with regard to introducing tariffs which are more a left wing philosophy and counter productive. The Alt right just cheers it on uncritically.
The Far left just like to turn up at rallys to taunt the alt right.

I think in the USA the far right is larger but I suppose it's definitional.
I don't call people wanting a decent healthcare system far left, just informed.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> The Alt Right and Far Left don't really have any core beliefs in my opinion, it's all culture war to them and a chance to form tribes and bash each other on the media and in person if possible.
> 
> For instance the Conservatives such as Mish are up in arms with regard to introducing tariffs which are more a left wing philosophy and counter productive. The Alt right just cheers it on uncritically.
> The Far left just like to turn up at rallys to taunt the alt right.
> 
> I think in the USA the far right is larger but I suppose it's definitional.
> I don't call people wanting a decent healthcare system far left, just informed.




Health care is an interesting conversation in the US.  It is not truly a private system, even if not universal. 

Equally interesting,  I was just with a client who works in healthcare here,  reckons it's a fracking mess.

For me and my family,  experiences in the public system here have ranged from really quite good to absolutely  horrendous.

My wife had excellent grounds to sue (but we chose to just move on). It is astonishing my mum is still alive due to the incompetency in the public system.

If I'd relied on the public system  years ago,  I'd be an invalid. 

So,  just don't know mate. There are no easy answers there for the US.


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> Health care is an interesting conversation in the US.  It is not truly a private system, even if not universal.
> 
> Equally interesting,  I was just with a client who works in healthcare here,  reckons it's a fracking mess.
> 
> For me and my family,  experiences in the public system here have ranged from really quite good to absolutely  horrendous.
> 
> My wife had excellent grounds to sue (but we chose to just move on). It is astonishing my mum is still alive due to the incompetency in the public system.
> 
> If I'd relied on the public system  years ago,  I'd be an invalid.
> 
> So,  just don't know mate. There are no easy answers there for the US.



Public system here can be horrendous. And the doctors will still make you pay.  We seem to have some of the worse doctor's and nurses in the world here. 

Some of the private hospitals are very good.

There just seems to be a lot of clueless wads in the health and educational system. Both have needed an overhaul for yeas.


----------



## wayneL




----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Public system here can be horrendous. And the doctors will still make you pay.  We seem to have some of the worse doctor's and nurses in the world here.
> 
> Some of the private hospitals are very good.
> 
> There just seems to be a lot of clueless wads in the health and educational system. Both have needed an overhaul for yeas.




Clearly we have had different experiences.
I have used many public health hospitals as a patient and through family or friends.
The quality has ranged from outstanding to very good. As yet I can't remember a really bad practitioner.

Private Hospitals ? Yes they are better looking. Nicer features. I  would hope they treat people well.
But I do know they come with a heavy price tag.
I'm aware that  a significant motivator is profit and that this , too often, has an adverse impact on the types of treatment offered. I'm thinking here of some cancer treatments I have been aware of in private hospitals

I also know that, generally speaking, the best treatment for many challenging conditions is undertaken in Public Hospitals. That perspective comes from doctors I know who work in both systems. Private hospitals tend to focus on relatively optional treatments. 

But I also see people have their own experiences and perspectives.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Clearly we have had different experiences.
> I have used many public health hospitals as a patient and through family or friends.
> The quality has ranged from outstanding to very good. As yet I can't remember a really bad practitioner.
> 
> Private Hospitals ? Yes they are better looking. Nicer features. I  would hope they treat people well.
> But I do know they come with a heavy price tag.
> I'm aware that  a significant motivator is profit and that this , too often, has an adverse impact on the types of treatment offered. I'm thinking here of some cancer treatments I have been aware of in private hospitals
> 
> I also know that, generally speaking, the best treatment for many challenging conditions is undertaken in Public Hospitals. That perspective comes from doctors I know who work in both systems. Private hospitals tend to focus on relatively optional treatments.
> 
> But I also see people have their own experiences and perspectives.



Public in nsw is shocking. I haven't seen it in the last year. But they have killed a few acquaintances of mine. 

One went in for a simple procedure and they botched it. Killed him,  resuscitated him and he ended up slightly brain damaged. Got a huge payout though.
This was about a year ago.

And then a long list of botched surgeries. People don't realize that the surgeons will operate if you need it or not. And will often make it worse than before.

They even tried to cut off my fathers leg due to a staf infection. They argued with me until I told the surgeon his next operation would be removing his head from his ass. My mother and I ended up tending to him at home and he is still walking around roughly a decade later. 

And then the dodgy diagnosing.  Some shocking, shocking calls. 
One doctor said I wouldn’t be able to work again after hurting my back. Nothing anyone could do to ease the pain except take drugs (which I never take). I thought "f you" kept working and within a year my back was better. 

Another mate had a tumor on his spine the size of a pineapple, complained for a year to doctors and finally they ran some tests and found it. Too late....

And lets not talk  about the idiots in a Sydney hospital that killed my unborn child with medications that should not have been prescribed. 
I could literally write a book.


----------



## basilio

They are scary stories Moxjo. With those sort of  experiences one would be totally gun shy.

I would hate to be on the receiving end of poor or dangerous doctors. As I have said my personal experience based on around half a dozen significant events has been particularly (possibly unusually) positive.  In fact I can recall one doctor making  a late decision* not  *to operate on a kidney stone issue becasue he thought with reason it was breaking up of its accord.

Some really terrible  medical events in your life moxjo.  Sorry..


----------



## Knobby22

Human perfection doesn't exist.

We missed Neil Armstrong at the 50th anniversary of the moon landing due to a stuff up at a USA private hospital.

In the US you sometimes have to make the choice of sending your family into poverty or dying gracefully due to drug costs. 

The average Australian lives to 82.5,  6 years longer than a USA person, that is mainly due to our health system.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...ancy-at-birth-among-comparable-countries_2019


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Human perfection doesn't exist.
> 
> We missed Neil Armstrong at the 50th anniversary of the moon landing due to a stuff up at a USA private hospital.
> 
> In the US you sometimes have to make the choice of sending your family into poverty or dying gracefully due to drug costs.
> 
> The average Australian lives to 82.5,  6 years longer than a USA person, that is mainly due to our health system.
> https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...ancy-at-birth-among-comparable-countries_2019




Irony is the US has the best tech and education for health services but treat it as a business enterprise not a service to the people of the country.

The falling life expectancy has been talked about for awhile.

Surprised at MO's experiences here in WA friends and family have long used the public system with nothing but praise particularly emergency wards although waiting times have been a problem.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Irony is the US has the best tech and education for health services but treat it as a business enterprise not a service to the people of the country.
> 
> The falling life expectancy has been talked about for awhile.
> 
> Surprised at MO's experiences here in WA friends and family have long used the public system with nothing but praise particularly emergency wards although waiting times have been a problem.



The birth of a child in Brisbane hospital was really good. But apparently after that they had some kind of scandal there.

 Nsw I have hundreds of horror stories. General practitioners just dole out antibiotics. Crap diagnosis reigns supreme.


----------



## Humid

moXJO said:


> The birth of a child in Brisbane hospital was really good. But apparently after that they had some kind of scandal there.
> 
> Nsw I have hundreds of horror stories. General practitioners just dole out antibiotics. Crap diagnosis reigns supreme.




What gets me is people spend more time choosing a panel beater than a GP
I use a very good GP there’s plenty out there


----------



## basilio

The Don.  His fantasies vs  what actually happens

*'No Blame?' ABC News finds 36 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults.*

President Donald Trump has repeatedly refused to accept any responsibility for inciting violence in American communities, dismissing critics who have pointed to his rhetoric as a potential source of inspiration for some citizens acting on even long-held beliefs of bigotry and hate. 

"I think my rhetoric brings people together," he said last week, four days after a 21-year-old allegedly posted an anti-immigrant screed online and then allegedly opened fire at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, killing 22 and injuring dozens of others. 

 But a nationwide review conducted by ABC News has identified at least 36 criminal cases where Trump was invoked in direct connection with violent acts, threats of violence or allegations of assault. 

 In nine cases, perpetrators hailed Trump in the midst or immediate aftermath of physically attacking innocent victims. In another 10 cases, perpetrators cheered or defended Trump while taunting or threatening others. And in another 10 cases, Trump and his rhetoric were cited in court to explain a defendant's violent or threatening behavior.

*(MORE: 7 key questions about the threat of domestic terrorism in America)*
 Seven cases involved violent or threatening acts perpetrated in defiance of Trump, with many of them targeting Trump's allies in Congress. But the vast majority of the cases -- 29 of the 36 -- reflect someone echoing presidential rhetoric, not protesting it. 

* ABC News could not find a single criminal case filed in federal or state court where an act of violence or threat was made in the name of President Barack Obama or President George W. Bush. *

 The 36 cases identified by ABC News are remarkable in that a link to the president is captured in court documents and police statements, under the penalty of perjury or contempt. 

 In many cases of assault or threat, charges are never filed, perpetrators are never identified or the incident is never even reported to authorities. And most criminal acts committed by Trump supporters or his detractors have nothing to do with the president. But in 36 cases, court records and police reports indicated some sort of link.
*https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889*


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The Don.  His fantasies vs  what actually happens
> 
> *'No Blame?' ABC News finds 36 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults.*
> 
> President Donald Trump has repeatedly refused to accept any responsibility for inciting violence in American communities, dismissing critics who have pointed to his rhetoric as a potential source of inspiration for some citizens acting on even long-held beliefs of bigotry and hate.
> 
> "I think my rhetoric brings people together," he said last week, four days after a 21-year-old allegedly posted an anti-immigrant screed online and then allegedly opened fire at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, killing 22 and injuring dozens of others.
> 
> But a nationwide review conducted by ABC News has identified at least 36 criminal cases where Trump was invoked in direct connection with violent acts, threats of violence or allegations of assault.
> 
> In nine cases, perpetrators hailed Trump in the midst or immediate aftermath of physically attacking innocent victims. In another 10 cases, perpetrators cheered or defended Trump while taunting or threatening others. And in another 10 cases, Trump and his rhetoric were cited in court to explain a defendant's violent or threatening behavior.
> 
> *(MORE: 7 key questions about the threat of domestic terrorism in America)*
> Seven cases involved violent or threatening acts perpetrated in defiance of Trump, with many of them targeting Trump's allies in Congress. But the vast majority of the cases -- 29 of the 36 -- reflect someone echoing presidential rhetoric, not protesting it.
> 
> * ABC News could not find a single criminal case filed in federal or state court where an act of violence or threat was made in the name of President Barack Obama or President George W. Bush. *
> 
> The 36 cases identified by ABC News are remarkable in that a link to the president is captured in court documents and police statements, under the penalty of perjury or contempt.
> 
> In many cases of assault or threat, charges are never filed, perpetrators are never identified or the incident is never even reported to authorities. And most criminal acts committed by Trump supporters or his detractors have nothing to do with the president. But in 36 cases, court records and police reports indicated some sort of link.
> *https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889*



Any idea how many trump supporters or maga hat wearing hicks have been assaulted because of democrats spouting violence against trump? 

Nazi labels (amongst a whole heap of name calling) at trump supporters, which led to acts of violence? 

How about Hollywood having to axe the opening of the movie "The Hunt" because it depicted champagne sipping elites hunting "Deplorables" after that leftist shot up a bunch of people.
Or Hollywood in general making multiple threats against anyone supporting Trump.
Or campus how many attacks there?

This is just the latest tactic to try and gain traction before 2020.
And its been a long list of bs spin from the media and democrats.

Democrats and the left in the US have become fascists. 
Cutting out opposing voices via media, internet, news, government, violent mobs.
Making sure you think a certain way, vote a certain way. Otherwise you will lose customers as a recent democrat candidate did by releasing Trumps donor list. There was a coordinated crowd outside premises next day. 
Or your job as countless Republican supporters have.
Or you will be harassed and attacked by violent leftist groups.

Trump has issues, but the other side are headcases....


----------



## moXJO

Humid said:


> What gets me is people spend more time choosing a panel beater than a GP
> I use a very good GP there’s plenty out there



Ones I use to go to are now booked out. Others move. Some everyone recommend and you find out they are just as clueless. 
"Good" can be very subjective.


----------



## bigdog

Humiliation for Trump as reality bites
the age

NEW YORK: The moment finally arrived, inevitable but nevertheless remarkable. Donald Trump’s trade policies collided with economic reality. On Tuesday, US time, the American President announced he would delay tariffs on hundreds of millions of dollars of Chinese goods due to take effect in September.

It was a momentous retreat given Trump’s repeated insistence that tariffs operate as a tax on China and do not harm US consumers.

‘‘ Don’t let them tell you, the fact is

– China devalues their currency, they pour money into their system. Because of that, you’re not paying for those tariffs. China’s paying for those tariffs,’’ he said earlier this month. ‘‘ Until such time as there is a deal, we will be taxing the hell out of China.’’

It’s a claim Trump has repeated time and again, but is untrue. It is accurate to say his tariffs have weakened China’s economy. They have reduced US demand for Chinese products and encouraged companies to shift production offshore.

But the fact remains: the tariffs are paid by American companies, which pass on some or all of the cost to their consumers. So far, it has been hard for ordinary Americans to see the economic impact of the tariffs. The early rounds focused on industrial goods such as tractors, chemicals and aircraft engines.

That would have changed with Trump’s next round of tariffs. This 10 per cent impost would apply to $US300 billion ($440 billion) of goods including clothes, toys, footwear, laptops and mobile phones. The National Retailers Federation warned Trump he was ‘‘ doubling-down on a flawed tariff strategy that is already slowing US economic growth, creating uncertainty and discouraging investment’’ . Andrew Collier, managing director of Orient Capital Research, said the President was holding ‘‘ a sword at the throat of the American economy’’ .

Trump announced the tariffs on August 1. Just 12 days later he folded. His administration announced it was delaying most of the tariffs until December and was dropping others altogether. ‘‘ We’re doing this for the Christmas season,’’ Trump told reporters. ‘‘ Just in case some of the tariffs would have an impact on US customers.’’

His actions spoke louder than his words. This was a clear admission from Trump that he can only expand his trade war so far without causing serious damage to the US economy. 

The sharemarket soared following his announcement.

But the structural issues underlying the US-China trade dispute remain unsolved.

‘‘ We are all just one tweet away from significant volatility,” wrote Joe Brusuelas, chief economist at accounting firm RSM, in a note to clients. ‘‘ The idea that this is a major source of relief to the economy is not tethered to empirical reality.’’

The self-proclaimed master dealmaker has capitulated without extracting anything from his adversaries. Trump may have saved Christmas, but he lost a lot of face. So much for his famous claim, ‘‘ Trade wars are good, and easy to win.’’ 

218


----------



## basilio

The new normal in the US .  Multiple right wing extremists plotting massacres in the name of white nationalism and their " learless feeder" Donald Trump.

* Police thwarted six mass shootings and white supremacist attacks since El Paso *
 Gun crime 

Several of the alleged foiled plots appeared to involve men espousing far-right viewpoints and racist ideologies

Sam Levin in Los Angeles

 
 @SamTLevin 
 
 Email 
Tue 20 Aug 2019 19.09 EDT   Last modified on Tue 20 Aug 2019 20.13 EDT

In the two weeks since a gunman killed 22 people in El Paso, law enforcement officials say they have thwarted six separate mass shootings or white supremacist attacks across the US.

At least four of the alleged foiled plots also appeared to involve men espousing far-right viewpoints and racist ideologies, with echoes of the Texas massacre. The 21-year-old suspect in that shooting, considered the deadliest anti-Latino attack in modern US history, allegedly authored a racist anti-immigrant “manifesto”.

In online posts and in their alleged planned massacres, the suspects in these recent cases targeted LGBTQ people, Jewish people, black Americans, Latinos and Muslims, according to law enforcement and media reports on the six men. Four of them were white men in their 20s, and all but one of them were believed to be armed, some with extensive weaponry.

Example
*20 August, Florida and Tennessee*

US authorities announced on Tuesday the arrest of Maryland resident Eric Lin, 35, who had allegedly made a series of social media threats against Hispanics in the Miami area. On Facebook, he threatened a Hispanic woman and her family, praised Hitler, and called for the extermination of Spanish-speaking people, Muslims and black Americans, the FBI said.

He also allegedly wrote, “I Thank God everyday President Donald John Trump is President”, saying he expected Trump to launch a racist war.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/20/el-paso-shooting-plot-white-supremacist-attacks
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/...exterminate-miami-hispanics-fbi-says-11247579


----------



## Knobby22

From *Tom Luongo* is an independent political and economic analyst based in North Florida, USA:

If you listen to Trump carefully, seeing him for what he is not what you think he is, what you want him to be or, most importantly, what he wants you to see, you hear a man who fully believes the Fed controls the economy.

You hear a man that firmly believes in the power of the government to remake the world in whatever image it wants, whenever it wants. You hear a man so solipsistic he can only see the world in terms he defined more than thirty years ago.

You hear a man who fundamentally doesn’t believe trade results in both sides winning but that everyone either wins a deal or loses. If he didn’t extract maximum pain from the other side he ‘lost.’ It’s the source of Trump’s inherent mercantilism.

And that fault in Donald Trump’s character is leading him to ever more extreme behavior as he refuses to reconcile the world we have versus the world he wants. So he keeps pressuring, embarrassing and humiliating people he wants to make deals with. And when they refuse to do so, he explodes and, like a child who didn’t get his cookie, uses the power of the Presidency to still try to get what he wants.

Trump’s not a multi-dimensional analyst. He isn’t a 4-d chess player. He’s actually a very simple creature. He believes the crap spewed by CNBC. He’s hired advisers who worked there for pity’s sake.
(There is also a few good points about how keeping rates high hurts China, article is worth a read).

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...o+zero)&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=feedburner


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> From *Tom Luongo* is an independent political and economic analyst based in North Florida, USA:
> 
> If you listen to Trump carefully, seeing him for what he is not what you think he is, what you want him to be or, most importantly, what he wants you to see, you hear a man who fully believes the Fed controls the economy.
> 
> You hear a man that firmly believes in the power of the government to remake the world in whatever image it wants, whenever it wants. You hear a man so solipsistic he can only see the world in terms he defined more than thirty years ago.
> 
> You hear a man who fundamentally doesn’t believe trade results in both sides winning but that everyone either wins a deal or loses. If he didn’t extract maximum pain from the other side he ‘lost.’ It’s the source of Trump’s inherent mercantilism.
> 
> And that fault in Donald Trump’s character is leading him to ever more extreme behavior as he refuses to reconcile the world we have versus the world he wants. So he keeps pressuring, embarrassing and humiliating people he wants to make deals with. And when they refuse to do so, he explodes and, like a child who didn’t get his cookie, uses the power of the Presidency to still try to get what he wants.
> 
> Trump’s not a multi-dimensional analyst. He isn’t a 4-d chess player. He’s actually a very simple creature. He believes the crap spewed by CNBC. He’s hired advisers who worked there for pity’s sake.
> (There is also a few good points about how keeping rates high hurts China, article is worth a read).
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...o+zero)&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=feedburner



TDS. Specious, yet demonstrably false nonsense.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> TDS. Specious, yet demonstrably false nonsense.



Demonstrate it.

Trump may have his heart in the right space but he is all over the shop when it comes to tactics.
why fight with India while you are fighting with China for instance?  
why lie like he did just yesterday regarding china ringing him for a deal?
why vacillate so much? It seems to me his attitude is how he awakens that day.


----------



## SirRumpole

I think Trump's main focus is how to make himself richer after leaving office.

Sucking up to Russia to get a few deals through for himself later on. He knows that's the way Putin works too. I don't think he's interested in another term as long as he can do a few deals on the side.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Demonstrate it.
> 
> Trump may have his heart in the right space but he is all over the shop when it comes to tactics.
> why fight with India while you are fighting with China for instance?
> why lie like he did just yesterday regarding china ringing him for a deal?
> why vacillate so much? It seems to me his attitude is how he awakens that day.



If you're objective,  you will realise that it's the MSM that is all over the goddam shop.

Admittedly facilitated by the God/Emporer, who is playing them for fools.


----------



## sptrawler

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...-at-the-next-us-election-20190826-p52kxo.html

From the article:
_Support for a Democratic president ranges from 41 per cent among all Australians, and 53 pe cent and 57 per cent among Labor and Greens voters_.
That makes sense, I was wondering what all the anti Trump media coverage was about.


----------



## moXJO

Probably the best comment I've seen:

"Trump is a litmus test for batshyt crazy and the crazy self-identify themselves often and repeatedly."

It amazes me how much he infuriates people. This is just the usual US president without the filter attached.
 Did people just not notice what the last three presidents did?


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Probably the best comment I've seen:
> 
> "Trump is a litmus test for batshyt crazy and the crazy self-identify themselves often and repeatedly."
> 
> It amazes me how much he infuriates people. This is just the usual US president without the filter attached.
> Did people just not notice what the last three presidents did?





I like "Trump is the US unmasked"


----------



## PZ99

Fake news 





https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/04/trump-hurricane-dorian-alabama-sharpie-map


----------



## moXJO

Talking about sources of fake news,  I see Arabella Advisors finally was outed.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Did people just not notice what the last three presidents did?




Hmmn... What I didn't notice was examples of past presidents making totally wrong statements about hurricane weather warnings (which incidentally started a panic in Alabama) , being corrected by the  National Weather Bureau,  then denying he was wrong and *THEN,  *using a weather bureau advisory picture on TV *with a hand drawn extra  loop* to justify the stupidity and lying he had engaged in. 

This is classic . This guy could walk down 5th Avenue , blow the brains out a random dude and then deny it with enough brazenness to get a medal.  (Particularly if he as giving out the medals.)
 
* Trump shows fake hurricane map in apparent bid to validate incorrect tweet *

Trump points to map with black loop extending hurricane’s path
President made baseless claim that Alabama would be affected
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/04/trump-hurricane-dorian-alabama-sharpie-map


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Hmmn... What I didn't notice was examples of past presidents making totally wrong statements about hurricane weather warnings (which incidentally started a panic in Alabama) , being corrected by the  National Weather Bureau,  then denying he was wrong and *THEN,  *using a weather bureau advisory picture on TV *with a hand drawn extra  loop* to justify the stupidity and lying he had engaged in.
> 
> This is classic . This guy could walk down 5th Avenue , blow the brains out a random dude and then deny it with enough brazenness to get a medal.  (Particularly if he as giving out the medals.)
> 
> * Trump shows fake hurricane map in apparent bid to validate incorrect tweet *
> 
> Trump points to map with black loop extending hurricane’s path
> President made baseless claim that Alabama would be affected
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/04/trump-hurricane-dorian-alabama-sharpie-map



Umm
Bill Clinton enabled the gfc,  Bush started a war and Obamas list is too long to mention.
And you pull out 'Trump with his box of crayons map' as the pinnacle?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Umm
> Bill Clinton enabled the gfc,  Bush started a war and Obamas list is too long to mention.
> And you pull out 'Trump with his box of crayons map' as the pinnacle?




No.  Not the pinnacle. I think you mean the *worst* example of complete mistakes  and then making up things afterwards to defend them. And I'm totally sure he will make more and worst and that his  rusted on supporters will continue to point elsewhere in defense of the indefensible.

Don Liar has* only* made about 12,000 known lies in his time in office.  They have been counted . This just happens to have one of the most pointless and stoopid ones.
_(But it does demonstrate his power to recreate reality doesn't it ? And his capacity to convince the lemmings that follow him that he is never ever wrong.)_
*
It looks exactly like a six year old repeatedly saying they didn't redecorate the lounge room wall with the texta while holding the texta in front of the wall and having ink all over his hand. *

*Trump’s Most Pointless Lie*
The president keeps insisting that Hurricane Dorian was forecast to hit Alabama.

...  no single subject has transfixed the president so consistently over the past week as attempting to prove that, at some point in the past, Hurricane Dorian was headed to Alabama. _The Washington Post _calculates that Trump has told more than 12,000 lies since becoming president, but this might be the most pointless of them all.

The groundwork was laid on Sunday, when during a briefing about the storm, Trump said, “It may get a little piece of a great place: It’s called Alabama. And Alabama could even be in for at least some very strong winds and something more than that, it could be. This just came up, unfortunately. It’s the size of—the storm that we’re talking about. So, for Alabama, just please be careful also.”

The only problem here is that this was patently untrue—so untrue, in fact, that the National Weather Service’s office in Birmingham hastened to correct it: “Alabama will NOT see any impacts from #Dorian. We repeat, no impacts from Hurricane #Dorian will be felt across Alabama. The system will remain too far east.” News reports also pointed out that the president said something false, though that hardly qualifies as news anymore.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...less-lie-hurricane-dorian-and-alabama/597469/


----------



## chiff

moXJO said:


> Umm
> Bill Clinton enabled the gfc,  Bush started a war and Obamas list is too long to mention.
> And you pull out 'Trump with his box of crayons map' as the pinnacle?



One thing that is being said is that the trade war is to stop China becoming the world's largest economy.Watching the egos involved this sounds like a legitimate view.


----------



## basilio

There is an excellent analysis of the Sharpe story on Morning Joe MSNBC.  Towards the end a Republican supporter notes that Donald Trumps  inability to tell the truth undermines all efforts to come to agreements on the political and economic front.  Think China, Think Iran.  He is just not believed.

There was another observation about how the residue of his refusal to acknowledge he has ever made a mistake and the fact the GOP has not been strong enough to call him out will undermine the Republician Party after he has gone.


----------



## basilio

Once upon a time there were actually intelligent, graceful politicians who offered each other mutual respect while they recognised their different political views.

President Obama giving a eulogy at Senator John McCains funeral
So did George Bush


https://wtvr.com/2018/09/01/president-george-w-bush-mccain-memorial-service/


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> No.  Not the pinnacle. I think you mean the *worst* example of complete mistakes  and then making up things afterwards to defend them. And I'm totally sure he will make more and worst and that his  rusted on supporters will continue to point elsewhere in defense of the indefensible.
> 
> Don Liar has* only* made about 12,000 known lies in his time in office.  They have been counted . This just happens to have one of the most pointless and stoopid ones.
> _(But it does demonstrate his power to recreate reality doesn't it ? And his capacity to convince the lemmings that follow him that he is never ever wrong.)_
> *
> It looks exactly like a six year old repeatedly saying they didn't redecorate the lounge room wall with the texta while holding the texta in front of the wall and having ink all over his hand. *
> 
> *Trump’s Most Pointless Lie*
> The president keeps insisting that Hurricane Dorian was forecast to hit Alabama.
> 
> ...  no single subject has transfixed the president so consistently over the past week as attempting to prove that, at some point in the past, Hurricane Dorian was headed to Alabama. _The Washington Post _calculates that Trump has told more than 12,000 lies since becoming president, but this might be the most pointless of them all.
> 
> The groundwork was laid on Sunday, when during a briefing about the storm, Trump said, “It may get a little piece of a great place: It’s called Alabama. And Alabama could even be in for at least some very strong winds and something more than that, it could be. This just came up, unfortunately. It’s the size of—the storm that we’re talking about. So, for Alabama, just please be careful also.”
> 
> The only problem here is that this was patently untrue—so untrue, in fact, that the National Weather Service’s office in Birmingham hastened to correct it: “Alabama will NOT see any impacts from #Dorian. We repeat, no impacts from Hurricane #Dorian will be felt across Alabama. The system will remain too far east.” News reports also pointed out that the president said something false, though that hardly qualifies as news anymore.
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...less-lie-hurricane-dorian-and-alabama/597469/



Meh....

Must be hard after the whole Russian thing fell through. 
Bet James Comey is starting to sweat now the attention has turned to him. And what a treasure trove of illegality that might turn out to be.


----------



## Knobby22

Trumps safe until the GOP turn on him or something (deliberately accidentally) happens to him
I expect to see Pence as the Republican contesting the election in 2020.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Once upon a time there were actually intelligent, graceful politicians who offered each other mutual respect while they recognised their different political views.
> 
> President Obama giving a eulogy at Senator John McCains funeral
> So did George Bush
> 
> 
> https://wtvr.com/2018/09/01/president-george-w-bush-mccain-memorial-service/




Obama was one of the worst leaders in history. Bush went to war on a lie. These guys were the reason trump got in.

Right now we have a similar situation in Australia where our politicians are failing us on both sides. 
Trump unmasked the lot of them by showing how truly sht they all are. Theres no going back now.
God bless that orange man...


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Trumps safe until the GOP turn on him or something (deliberately accidentally) happens to him
> I expect to see Pence as the Republican contesting the election in 2020.



Might come down to the numbers. Dems seem to be digging a hole for themselves. None of their candidates are any good either. 

I didn't think trump could clinch the top spot again looking at the numbers he has to make. But who knows.


----------



## moXJO

chiff said:


> One thing that is being said is that the trade war is to stop China becoming the world's largest economy.Watching the egos involved this sounds like a legitimate view.



Contain China is the name of the game. And its needed. 
As bad as the US is, China is a lot worse.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Trumps safe until the GOP turn on him or something (deliberately accidentally) happens to him
> I expect to see Pence as the Republican contesting the election in 2020.



If Trump isn't El Presidente again after 2020, I'll pay for your hookers for the next four years... Deal?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> If Trump isn't El Presidente again after 2020, I'll pay for your hookers for the next four years... Deal?



[emoji16]
Just give me a horse tip. Don't think my wife would like the other.


----------



## SirRumpole

There goes another one...

John Bolton, National Security advisor has been sacked/resigned.

Surely this is a sign of a dangerously unstable administration lead by a dangerously unstable President.

One wonders how long this self destruction can last.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-11/donald-trump-fires-john-bolton/11498650


----------



## Knobby22

I thought it was a good decision to sack him.
The world is a safer place.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> I thought it was a good decision to sack him.
> The world is a safer place.




He shouldn't have been hired in the first place, that he was shows lack of judgement.


----------



## Knobby22

Impeachment process to begin. Nancy Pelosi lost.
She rightly said it would be a distraction and pointless (as the Republicans control congress).


Joe Biden 

*✔* @JoeBiden 

 
President Trump's actions are an abuse of power. They undermine our national security. They violate the oath of office. If we allow a President to get away with shredding the United States Constitution — that will last forever.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Impeachment process to begin. Nancy Pelosi lost.
> She rightly said it would be a distraction and pointless (as the Republicans control congress).
> 
> 
> Joe Biden
> 
> *✔* @JoeBiden
> 
> 
> President Trump's actions are an abuse of power. They undermine our national security. They violate the oath of office. If we allow a President to get away with shredding the United States Constitution — that will last forever.



Yep, get rid of Trump and let China and the multi nationals run riot. Priceless, bring it on, people deserve it.
Then get rid of Johnson and brexit, beautiful. 
Keep the plebs in their box, they love it.


----------



## basilio

Excellent outline of why The Don is in trouble
 Print  Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*Donald Trump impeachment probe: Here's what you need to know about the US President and Ukraine*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-25/donald-trump-impeachment-joe-biden-ukraine-explained/11542216


----------



## basilio

A far, far better effort at pulling together the threads of Donald Trumps efforts at trying to encourage/blackmail the Ukraine PM into getting dirt on Joe Bidens son.

Just priceless.. Just have to watch the interviews with  Rudy Giuliani
https://www.theguardian.com/culture...trump-ukraine-impeachable-behavior-late-night


----------



## moXJO

Jesus... if anything this will put the Don back in the WH. Dems have lost the plot.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Jesus... if anything this will put the Don back in the WH. Dems have lost the plot.




Do you ever actually bother to see and hear what this guy is doing ?

Or do you just think he has a free pass to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whoever he wants ? 

Or maybe you just don't  know and don't care...


----------



## basilio

News Ltd analysis of where Trump is at.
*Trump impeachment inquiry: What happens next?*
Publicly, Donald Trump is confident he will survive an official impeachment inquiry. A phone call he made in private tells a different story.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...t/news-story/4c6ade5bbe273e09bc128dcec3c898cd


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Do you ever actually bother to see and hear what this guy is doing ?
> 
> Or do you just think he has a free pass to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whoever he wants ?
> 
> Or maybe you just don't  know and don't care...



Dems did the same thing not long ago. Democrats wrote to the Ukrainian government in May 2018 urging it to continue investigations into President Donald Trump’s alleged collusion with Russia in the 2016.
And the fact that they are trying to bury the Biden incident is invisible to you? 
Trumps crazy is (so far) working. Dems are just off the handle right now. They need a centrist to come in (won't be this term).


----------



## bellenuit

I doubt very much if he will be impeached because few in the GOP will come on board. But I think Pelosi had no choice but to start the process as otherwise there would simply be no line in the sand as regards what the president can do. What may come out of it though is exposure of the GOP hypocrisy, particularly if some of the more serious allegations are proven true, yet they still stand by him. Their grandstanding over minor misdemeanours by some democrats will be shown to be nothing but fakery if more serious allegations are accepted as OK from their own.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Dems did the same thing not long ago. Democrats wrote to the Ukrainian government in May 2018 urging it to continue investigations into President Donald Trump’s alleged collusion with Russia in the 2016.
> And the fact that they are trying to bury the Biden incident is invisible to you?
> Trumps crazy is (so far) working. Dems are just off the handle right now. They need a centrist to come in (won't be this term).




Did the Dems threaten to withdraw aid from Ukraine if Ukraine did not comply with their request ?

That seems to be the main charge, using public money for private gain.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Did the Dems threaten to withdraw aid from Ukraine if Ukraine did not comply with their request ?
> 
> That seems to be the main charge, using public money for private gain.



"Joe Biden. In 2016, the then-vice president threatened to withhold $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Ukraine if the government did not fire the country’s top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin. According to the New York Times, “Among those who had a stake in the outcome was Hunter Biden … who at the time was on the board of an energy company owned by a Ukrainian oligarch who had been in the sights of the fired prosecutor general."

The Democrats letter is here: https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/...cutor of Ukraine on Mueller investigation.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> "Joe Biden. In 2016, the then-vice president threatened to withhold $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Ukraine if the government did not fire the country’s top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin. According to the New York Times, “Among those who had a stake in the outcome was Hunter Biden … who at the time was on the board of an energy company owned by a Ukrainian oligarch who had been in the sights of the fired prosecutor general."
> 
> The Democrats letter is here: https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/...cutor of Ukraine on Mueller investigation.pdf




So where in that letter does it mention withdrawing aid ?

The letter is from 3 senators only, and they can write whatever they like, they have no power individually.


----------



## chiff

Had to laugh at the journalist last night on the Drum.In relation to taking on Trump with the impeachment attempt etc he said 'never wrestle with a pig...firstly you get dirty yourself ..and secondly the pig likes it'


----------



## wayneL

Tulsa still the only sensible Dem


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> I doubt very much if he will be impeached because few in the GOP will come on board. But I think Pelosi had no choice but to start the process as otherwise there would simply be no line in the sand as regards what the president can do. What may come out of it though is exposure of the GOP hypocrisy, particularly if some of the more serious allegations are proven true, yet they still stand by him. Their grandstanding over minor misdemeanours by some democrats will be shown to be nothing but fakery if more serious allegations are accepted as OK from their own.




I think you are completely on the money here Trump supporters wont change their mind and really the Democrats are far from an election threat to Trump at the moment IMHO.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> So where in that letter does it mention withdrawing aid ?
> 
> The letter is from 3 senators only, and they can write whatever they like, they have no power individually.



Biden was the one making threats under obama. The I'll post up more later on the dems.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> really the Democrats are far from an election threat to Trump at the moment IMHO.



This right here.
The dems can't beat trump with the current field so they need to fling as much sht as possible. Its just politics after all....


----------



## wayneL

Interesting AF


----------



## sptrawler

If the Democrats bring about impeachment proceedings and fail, then Trump organises a trade deal with China, the Democrats will look pretty inept at next years elections. IMO


----------



## kahuna1

She is a Republican ...

One of the few honest ones .... calls Trump openly corrupt, a liar and incompetent.



He is a danger to the nation, USA, on and on she goes.

Not a democrat, a republican.

I am amused Trump sent out cheat notes to Republicans about how to deflect and minimize the damage .... and accidentally sent to democrats about Ukrainian issue and how to straw man that.

Still the transcript released WAS NOT a verbatim one .... a heavily redacted and altered one was what was released and that was bad enough.

Hail to the chief .... maybe Scott our PM .... can remove his face from where it has been recently ?


----------



## wayneL

kahuna1 said:


> She is a Republican ...
> 
> One of the few honest ones .... calls Trump openly corrupt, a liar and incompetent.
> 
> 
> 
> He is a danger to the nation, USA, on and on she goes.
> 
> Not a democrat, a republican.
> 
> I am amused Trump sent out cheat notes to Republicans about how to deflect and minimize the damage .... and accidentally sent to democrats about Ukrainian issue and how to straw man that.
> 
> Still the transcript released WAS NOT a verbatim one .... a heavily redacted and altered one was what was released and that was bad enough.
> 
> Hail to the chief .... maybe Scott our PM .... can remove his face from where it has been recently ?




HAHAHAHA HAHA! She is a Democ-Rat, you fool!


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Biden was the one making threats under obama. The I'll post up more later on the dems.




Thats politics but more importantly as bellenuit says a line has to be drawn as to Trumps actions in regards to the Constitution.


----------



## kahuna1

Yes I know ...

It was a joke ...
of the House the 430 odd members ... there are I think 46 Black African Americans .... and the republicans have how many ?>

The Trump party ? Has 2 .... out of 430 ....  African American 46 total in the lower house. 44 Democrat 2 Republican 

The Senate .... its basically all bloody white lawyers and of the 100 ? How many of the 15% African American population gets represented there ?

2 .... One for  each party ....

Hilarious. 

Sad how them old boys have not changed in 200 years.


----------



## kahuna1

Sean Hannity from Fox/Sky news ...

New president of the USA ?





Trump leads Hannity or Hannity and Fox leading the USA ?


----------



## PZ99

Pretty sure Americans are getting bored with impeachment talk.

Nothing new from either side of politics > Efforts to impeach Barack Obama


----------



## basilio

*'Explosive' whistleblower complaint on Trump's Ukraine phone call released*

New York: Donald Trump used his presidential power to solicit foreign interference in the 2020 election, according to a whistleblower complaint that accuses the White House of seeking to cover up the contents of Trump's controversial phone conversation with his Ukrainian counterpart*.*
*..
In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple US government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 US election," the whistleblower wrote in the August 12 complaint.

"This interference includes, among other things, pressuring a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals.
"The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph W. Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort. Attorney General [William] Barr appears to be involved as well."

..
The whistleblower, who is expected to testify before Congress in coming days, writes that White House officials intervened to "lock down" all records of the phone call, especially the word-for-word summary of the conversation.

"This set of actions underscored to me that White House officials understood the gravity of what transpired in the call," the whistleblower writes.

Instead of the usual computer system used for such calls, officials uploaded it to a separate system used for highly sensitive material.

The complainant says Ukraine's leadership was led to believe they needed to "play ball" on Trump's request in order to receive a meeting or phone call with Trump.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...eddling-in-2020-election-20190926-p52vd7.html

*


----------



## basilio

The Murdoch Press was more detailed and forthright in its approach to the ongoing story.

*Donald Trump labels whistleblower behind explosive Ukraine call complaint as ‘close to a spy’*
Under siege amid a flood of new accusations, Donald Trump has lashed out with an extraordinary spray against his perceived enemies.
https://www.news.com.au/world/north...d/news-story/868414a74ae8a0d2ea7a6bd86f922e60


This is the report from the whistle blower
https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf


----------



## kahuna1

Fox news .... Runs Trump ...

Are they kidding ?
Are they delusional ? 

*Fox News melts down over impeachment*


----------



## Knobby22

US Manufacturing Index lowest since 2009. Hmmm


----------



## wayneL




----------



## bi-polar

Each year the election campaign begins earlier. Then 2024 will probably begin next year. So cancel the presidency and have all candidates form a college for majority decisions. Or maybe no candidates , news and media are the collective POTUS. Tweets are not fake.


----------



## basilio

Who did the US vote for in 2016 ?

*Why I’m Supporting the Demonic Creature That Emerged From the Depths of Hell In This Year’s Presidential Election*
*by Gavin Speiller*

I believe this year’s election is the most important of our lifetime. The next President of the United States will be making decisions that will chart our nation’s course for the next century. We need a strong, principled leader who is ready to shake up Washington. That’s why I’ll be voting for The Demonic Creature That Emerged From the Depths of Hell.

I’m just as surprised as you are. A few months back when the ground in front of the White House split open, flames shot out and from that emerged a giant, winged demon creature vowing to win the presidential election and bring about “an age of darkness and suffering that will cover the land for all of eternity,” I was just as skeptical as everyone else. Who was this guy with zero political experience who thought he could just waltz through a giant chasm of fire and run for president? None of the pundits took him seriously, but here we are just a couple of months later and he’s polling over 45% nationally. The truth is, the more I listen to the demon creature talk, the more his words resonate with me.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles...s-of-hell-in-this-years-presidential-election


----------



## bi-polar

Captain Cook 1770 named the land New South Wales to replace the American convict prisons.


----------



## basilio

If Trump keeps digging I think he could go all the way to China.
This man has no boundaries.

*Not just Ukraine, Trump now calls for China to probe Bidens*
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-calls-china-investigate-bidens-66033807


----------



## IFocus

As a slight aside one of the greats IMHO political cartoonist David Rowe







https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...nald-trump-scott-morrison-and-satire/11566888


----------



## Knobby22

Alexander Downer the deep state spy, who would have thought? (lol)

_Downer is a deep state socialist traitor"
One of many" Hillary Clinton's puppets
Treacherous  Anarchist"
Absolute disgrace to Australia
_
(One of many tweets)


----------



## bi-polar

Downer is Morrison's man in London where Putin's men poisoned a spy . Vladimir the stable genius is against Mueller inquiry like Scomo who wants Obama's stupid deal for refugees who need shooting says Donald. Ukraine is corrupt and takes Donald's money to beat Putin and Biden. Downer is Ukrainian , Pelosi is from Venezuela and Morrison must be socialist Chinese.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> If Trump keeps digging I think he could go all the way to China.
> This man has no boundaries.
> 
> *Not just Ukraine, Trump now calls for China to probe Bidens*
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-calls-china-investigate-bidens-66033807



So it's okay to invent stuff about a sitting Republican American president, yet totally improper to investigate apparent corruption/crimes on a Democrat candidate (who has gone as far as to actually admit it on TV)?

Let that sink in for a moment, folks. This is how pathological the left have become.


----------



## moXJO

There is no impeachment inquiry. Dems are just making noise. There are no subpoenas either, or it would get litigated in court when the people or agencies on the receiving end object. 

Its an "impeachment show".

If the polls don't come back favourable it will get dropped.


----------



## bi-polar

"House Democrats have subpoenaed US President Donald Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani for documents related to his interactions with Ukrainian officials. The House Intelligence, Foreign Affairs and Oversight and Reform panels announced the subpoena on Monday" in fake newspaper photoshop hoaxes.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Alexander Downer the deep state spy, who would have thought? (lol)
> 
> _Downer is a deep state socialist traitor"
> One of many" Hillary Clinton's puppets
> Treacherous  Anarchist"
> Absolute disgrace to Australia
> _
> (One of many tweets)




Downer a Liberal blue blood toff being called a "socialist" by Trump is just gold.

This is some one who eats and breaths being a conservative in every sense.

It sort rules out believing any thing else Trump could say .....surely.

Yeah I know along with the other is it 10,000 other things Trump has bloated about


----------



## wayneL

Oh come on, Downer is the classic Liberal Wet


----------



## bi-polar

Downer's voice you mean? Not his bite:
"Downer was the authorising minister for the Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS), the agency that bugged Timor-Leste’s cabinet room in Dili and tapped its telephones. 
In 2014, Downer told _Four Corners_ that “the Australian government was on Australia’s side in the negotiations and we did our best to make sure that we were able to achieve our objective”.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## SirRumpole

Do we see any similarity in Trump's attack on Biden Snr and Jnr and his attack on "crooked Hilary" who he didn't bother going after when he became President ?

It's all bluff and fake news for political purposes without substantiation.


----------



## bi-polar

The untaxed greatest ego in all history has enough cash to pay private investigators to put Biden in jail. But his game is promoting himself onto the world stage even if everyone throws tomatoes. Impeachment may even suit him for attention grabbing. The only US pres behind bars ? Perfect.


----------



## basilio

It will be interesting to see how Don and the Republican Party deal with the testimony of the US diplomats who were instructed on how to persuade the new Ukraine govt to open an investigation into the Bidens.

* US diplomats told Zelenskiy that Trump visit was dependent on Biden statement *
Newly released texts show diplomats made clear that better Kyiv-Washington relations were linked to cooperation

US diplomats told Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, that a prestigious White House visit to meet Donald Trump was dependent on him making a public statement vowing to investigate Hunter Biden’s company, and a Ukrainian role in the 2016 elections, according to texts released on Thursday night.

The texts, released by three congressional committees holding impeachment hearings, show that the diplomats made clear that any improvement in Kyiv’s relations with Washington would be dependent on Zelenskiy’s cooperation in Trump’s quest to find damaging material about son of his leading political opponent, and on the Democrats in general.

In August, Zelenskiy’s government became aware, through a US press report, that military aid for its struggle with Russia, had been withheld by Trump, in an apparent effort to increase the pressure on the Ukrainian government.

The texts are exchanges from July to early September between three US diplomats - Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, Kurt Volker, the then special envoy on Ukraine, and Bill Taylor, the acting ambassador to Kyiv. Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani and a Zelenskiy aide, Andrey Yermak, also make brief appearances in the correspondence.

The conversations leave no doubt that the state department was deeply involved in the effort to use the office of the presidency to pressure a foreign government to investigate Trump’s political enemies. At one point the diplomats even draft a statement for Zelenskiy to read out

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...pendent-on-biden-statement-text-investigation


----------



## bi-polar

If he talks his way out of it then what can Canberra complain about when China pushes into Aus politics? Downer will be speechless.


----------



## bi-polar

A subpoena has been nailed to White House chief John Mulvaney's door. The sand bags won't allow him to reach it but journalists read it out with Donald threatening to bankrupt socialist traitors.  EU has launched Interpol alert for Boris the Brexit last seen in an Irish swamp.


----------



## basilio

Saw an interview with Stormy Daniels on Scandinavian TV . (You tube) 
Naturally it was on the  Trump relationship and the efforts by Trumps lawyer to not only  get her to sign an NDA but then sign a statement that she had never had any relationship with Donald Trump in any way.

Interesting interview. One of the telling points, in my view, was the fact that she and Donald Trump had about 3 hours of quite intelligent conversation around largely businesses issues.  She thought  at that stage, he was intelligent and articulate. Dons current incoherence looks all the more intriguing.


----------



## bi-polar

As a genius himself, he was enthralled by her eloquence, oratory and syntax which enamoured the platonic bardic lyricism within his Byronic breast.


----------



## basilio

Insight into Donald Trumps thinking by the guy who wrote The Art of the Deal" for DonaldTrump (And deeply regretted it ever since .)


----------



## bi-polar

Similar to this freeze when asked to explain:
*Silence speaks louder than words in this story*

https://www.smh.com.au › Politics › Federal › Opinion
Feb 10, 2011 - Tony Abbott's death-stare freeze during a Seven News interview about what was essentially him accepting the reasonable proposition that in ...


----------



## bi-polar

The Guardian today:
 Serious people, including some Republicans, worry that Trump is the “doomsday president”, determined, if he goes down, to take everyone and everything down with him. If such a point is reached, it is frighteningly unclear whether a goaded, maddened Trump could be trusted to act sensibly and sanely on issues such as Iran and North Korea.

The example of King George III, another American sovereign who lost his reason and his control, comes to mind. From hubris, chaos.


----------



## wayneL

LMAO


----------



## bi-polar

If h can't be beaten then join him.
*If Trump's Rage Brings 'Civil War,' Where Will the Military Stand?*

https://www.thedailybeast.com › if-trumps-rage-brings-civil-war-where-wil...
13 hours ago - Earlier this week Donald Trump, commander in chief of the U.S. armed forces, tweeted that his impeachment “will cause a Civil War”


----------



## IFocus

bi-polar said:


> If h can't be beaten then join him.
> *If Trump's Rage Brings 'Civil War,' Where Will the Military Stand?*
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com › if-trumps-rage-brings-civil-war-where-wil...
> 13 hours ago - Earlier this week Donald Trump, commander in chief of the U.S. armed forces, tweeted that his impeachment “will cause a Civil War”




This bit  

"
“Donald Trump is everything the U.S. military should despise: a draft dodger, adulterer, flabby, lazy, unread, a tabloid joke for decades, and TV reality show star.”
"


----------



## basilio

Another whistleblower on Trump.  This time he seems to have actually heard the phone call.
This should really send him into orbit.
I wonder how long the Republicians can keep their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing is happening.?

*A second whistleblower comes forward with ‘first-hand knowledge’ of corruption*
Another whistleblower has come forward with allegations after an impeachment inquiry was launched into US President Donald Trump. 

A second person has come forward with corroborating first-hand information about US President Donald Trump’s alleged attempts to pressure Ukraine for personal political gain, local media reported on Sunday, US time.

ABC News revealed that lawyer Mark Zaid said the second whistleblower was an intelligence official who “has first-hand knowledge of some of allegations outlined in the original complaint [and] has been interviewed by head of intelligence community’s internal watchdog.”

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...n/news-story/6647fb28366ea4fa100ee2477d5a71b1


----------



## basilio

I wonder Donald Trump makes of this Conservative firebrand.?


----------



## basilio

This a very detailed analysis of the troubling issues of Trumps personality which make him unfit for Presidency,  George Conway is a lawyer an husband of Maryanne Conway Trumps counselor

*George Conway: Trump Is Unfit for Office - The Atlantic*

https://www.theatlantic.com › ideas › archive › 2019/10 › george-conway-...
4 days ago - Donald Trump's narcissism makes it impossible for him to carry out the duties of the presidency in the way the Constitution requires.


----------



## basilio

*George Conway* Retweeted




*Marty Lederman*‏ @*marty_lederman* 8h8 hours ago


Marty Lederman Retweeted Donald J. Trump

Is there anyone out there who could, sincerely & w/a straight face, argue that the person who wrote this tweet (like countless tweets before it) is fit to be the head of *anything,* let alone the United States? I don't envy historians who'll have to explain this.

Marty Lederman added,

 
*Donald J. Trump*Verified account @*realDonaldTrump*
....This makes Nervous Nancy every bit as guilty as Liddle’ Adam Schiff for High Crimes and Misdemeanors, and even Treason. I guess that means that they, along with all of those that evilly “Colluded” with them, must all be immediately Impeached!
Show this thread
47 replies    181 retweets    819 likes


----------



## basilio




----------



## bi-polar

China is ignoring the norms of the western system of trade and freedom. Maybe it no longer exists as a predictable world-order with the US the way it is now.  1 year to go for the loony - unless he doesn't go...


----------



## Knobby22

I believe Trump is removing air power protection for their allies the Kurds who defeated Isis.
 The Turks will soon be sending in Arab militias with their air power  to kill the Kurds in Northern Syria.

I don't  think the US populace will be happy with this, I'm not, it's a betrayal. It will also allow Isis to reform.

Hopefully he wakes up!


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> This a very detailed analysis of the troubling issues of Trumps personality which make him unfit for Presidency



Regardless of the detail or arguments for or against Trump as President, he's most certainly unconventional. I don't think anyone would argue with that no matter what their political views - Trump is unconventional when compared to previous Presidents and other national leaders.

That being so, he's unconventional, as investors / traders we'd be wise to bear that in mind given that he's seeking re-election next year. Expect, well, expecting unconventional things to happen would seem a reasonable thing to say and it's a reasonable assumption that at least some of those things will impact upon markets.

Looking at the whole situation from China to the Middle East to economics to Trump himself it's all much the same. It all has a lot in common with tinder dry bush on a 45 degree day with a strong wind blowing.

Now if the opinion polls were to show that Trump's re-election is anything other than a sure fire certainty then that amounts to a cornered wild animal does it not?

That could get "interesting" to say the least and could well move the markets significantly (noting that credible financial organisations have already acknowledged that Trump's actions do add to market volatility).


----------



## bi-polar

Trump claims he doesn't have to produce his tax returns.
"Show us your tax"
"No , I'm a criminal and a president"


----------



## sptrawler

The gains Friday also gave the S&P 500 index its best day in seven weeks, though the benchmark index still finished with its third straight weekly loss.

Technology, health care and financial stocks powered much of the rally, which was spurred by mixed job market data for September. The report showed that employers are still adding jobs at a healthy clip, albeit more slowly, and that the national unemployment rate dropped to a five-decade low of 3.5%.

As long as he keeps doing what he is doing, it appears to be working, meanwhile he has the muppet's running around in circles with pitchforks.


----------



## Knobby22

Have to feel sorry for the Kurds though hey?


----------



## bi-polar

Dow Jones rose continually under the greatest blackest genius Obama the Magnificent. Then in 2017 Dow Jones stops rising and has major volatility , flat lining and Democrat sabotage .


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Have to feel sorry for the Kurds though hey?



It is a bit strange, when Trump came in, they were demanding the U.S get out of the middle east, now they dont want them to.
But gettkng back to the issue, I dont believe they are going to let the Kurds be over run, as usual our 24/7 press is milking it and whipping everyone into a lather. IMO
I cant understand why everyone has to give themselves an ulcer, over a new article on a new subject, everyday . Obviously people love this mass hype, mass hysteria life, maybe they are bored who knows.


----------



## bi-polar

Kurds, Turks and Syrians are mostly Sunni compared with Shiite Iran. So no gain for Iran from it and no problem for Donald.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> It is a bit strange, when Trump came in, they were demanding the U.S get out of the middle east, now they dont want them to.
> But gettkng back to the issue, I dont believe they are going to let the Kurds be over run, as usual our 24/7 press is milking it and whipping everyone into a lather. IMO
> I cant understand why everyone has to give themselves an ulcer, over a new article on a new subject, everyday . Obviously people love this mass hype, mass hysteria life, maybe they are bored who knows.




A couple of points US military action after the Kuwait  war left the place in a mess with Iran, ISIS, Russia and anyone else filling the vacuum, the US were the problem remember weapons of mass destruction and Democracy coming to the middle east?

Trumps closest republican allies are now saying Trumps actions will create a mass slaughter of the US Kurdish allies including women and children this after the US saying it wouldn't..

Grand act of betrayal unfortunately, Australia.....take note.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> A couple of points US military action after the Kuwait  war left the place in a mess with Iran, ISIS, Russia and anyone else filling the vacuum, the US were the problem remember weapons of mass destruction and Democracy coming to the middle east?
> 
> Trumps closest republican allies are now saying Trumps actions will create a mass slaughter of the US Kurdish allies including women and children this after the US saying it wouldn't..
> 
> Grand act of betrayal unfortunately, Australia.....take note.



Yes, meanwhile Australia is becoming a basket case, shame that doesn't get the coverage and the kids marching down the streets.


----------



## moXJO

US can't babysit forever. People forget we left the South Vietnamese for dead while the hippies cheered.

There is a current restructure of the middle east going on.


----------



## bi-polar

moXJO
You don't want a baby sitter to stay , you do want the US staying in Vietnam , you don't expect Middle East to stay as it is. On balance you may be right.


----------



## moXJO

bi-polar said:


> moXJO
> You don't want a baby sitter to stay , you do want the US staying in Vietnam , you don't expect Middle East to stay as it is. On balance you may be right.



Its all politics.
But:
Its also who fills the vacuum. Communists doing a cleanse of "wrong think"?
Isis regaining strength and going on another offensive?

Middle East seems to have gotten their sht in order just enough to wind down. And lets face it, oil will become past history at some stage.


----------



## bi-polar

Is that the vacuum that the George Bushes gave Iraq? The "right think" of US faking its self defence in Vietnam and Menzies inviting Saigon to invite Australia , please please ?  The middle east being restructured , being in order, IS on offensive, right .  My head hurts.


----------



## moXJO

bi-polar said:


> Is that the vacuum that the George Bushes gave Iraq? The "right think" of US faking its self defence in Vietnam and Menzies inviting Saigon to invite Australia , please please ?  The middle east being restructured , being in order, IS on offensive, right .  My head hurts.



Who said the US is "right think".


----------



## bi-polar

Don't know , I'm trying to untangle your mixture of thoughts.


----------



## moXJO

bi-polar said:


> Don't know , I'm trying to untangle your mixture of thoughts.



Why ruin a proven blend


----------



## Knobby22

I was watching a specialist on the Kurd issue on Sky news.
They tried to make a deal with Syria and Turkey with US help. They got rid of their heavy weapons. 

Now that the US has betrayed them it is expected in their weakened condition to be attacked by the Russians to the south and the Turks to the north. The Turks are planning to fill their territory with refugees and destroy them forever. 

ISIS will probably take some territory off them also as there will be a vacuum again.

I  really think the USA should have looked after their allies a bit better. They could have at least provided air cover. The poor Kurds are going to be bombed to death.
All they did fighting ISIS has been forgotten.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I was watching a specialist on the Kurd issue on Sky news.
> They tried to make a deal with Syria and Turkey with US help. They got rid of their heavy weapons.
> 
> Now that the US has betrayed them it is expected in their weakened condition to be attacked by the Russians to the south and the Turks to the north. The Turks are planning to fill their territory with refugees and destroy them forever.
> 
> ISIS will probably take some territory off them also as there will be a vacuum again.
> 
> I  really think the USA should have looked after their allies a bit better. They could have at least provided air cover. The poor Kurds are going to be bombed to death.
> All they did fighting ISIS has been forgotten.



I think a deal was already done with someone else. Kurds don't really have much negotiating power. In saying that: I don't really believe much that comes out of the media either.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I think a deal was already done with someone else. Kurds don't really have much negotiating power. In saying that: I don't really believe much that comes out of the media either.



I think the media will be whipping up the storm in a tea cup, as usual.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> I think the media will be whipping up the storm in a tea cup, as usual.




I reckon we should send them "Our thoughts and prayers" cubed. (this  massacre will be *really* big. But of course as long as they are not from the US its not that bad is it ?)

That's the usual response when there is another massacre in the US isn't it ?

The karma part will happen if/when ISIS escapees/survivors  from the prison camps decide they will really payout on everyone.


----------



## IFocus

basilio said:


> I reckon we should send them "Our thoughts and prayers" cubed. (this  massacre will be *really* big. But of course as long as they are not from the US its not that bad is it ?)
> 
> That's the usual response when there is another massacre in the US isn't it ?
> 
> The karma part will happen if/when ISIS escapees/survivors  from the prison camps decide they will really payout on everyone.




You would have to be tempted if you were the Kurds help a few ISIS find their way to the US surely.


----------



## bi-polar

I shall return , said Macarthur 1942.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-unveils-kit-to-convert-artillery-rockets-into-guided-missiles/ 
“What’s new here are the aerodynamics of the winglets — very unique, unseen in Iran to date and unseen in any other country..”  “This is exactly the ‘precision rocket’ project that Netanyahu and the IDF regard as a Red Line,” he said.


----------



## moXJO

Russia is a big part of it as well and have warned Turkey. Turkey has over 3 million refugees they want to send back to Syria. I'm sure theres more to the story.


----------



## sptrawler

I suppose the question is, how long do occupying forces stay in a Country, in the end they probably aren't welcomed by either side. Or should the U.S stay there  indefinitely? They probably should stay, until the media says it is o.k to leave, as it appears to be with most things.


----------



## sptrawler

I wonder if someone in the Thai Government will get impeached, for asking Australia about this Thai ministers criminal background?? 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/sin...-politician-s-crime-past-20191009-p52z3r.html


----------



## moXJO

It happened to Afghanistan interpreters and those sided with the US in Afghanistan. Every war the US gets involved with, they eventually  leave everyone out to dry.

 In this instance it feels like a deal was done behind the scenes though. Felt like the Turkish forces had been planning this operation for a while. Perhaps if they wipe out the ISIS prisoners the US will look the other way.


----------



## bi-polar

sptrawler said:


> Thai Government will get impeached,




US aid to Ukraine funds everything from developmental aid to anti-tank missiles and Humvees.  
Thailand is granting emergency aid for Australia's failed rice harvest and peasant revolts. This will fund Thai Navy combat drones for surveillance of jounalists if Australia digs up dirt on the heroin dealer . Otherwise Canberra will starve.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## bellenuit

Wow. Some explosive stuff from around the 12:45 mark.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow...iani-role-in-trump-ukraine-scheme-71040069699


----------



## Knobby22

Interesting Bellnuit.

Watch FOX/Newscorp carefully. When they move against Trump it's going to be very interesting. Pence get ready.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> It happened to Afghanistan interpreters and those sided with the US in Afghanistan. Every war the US gets involved with, they eventually  leave everyone out to dry.
> 
> In this instance it feels like a deal was done behind the scenes though. Felt like the Turkish forces had been planning this operation for a while. Perhaps if they wipe out the ISIS prisoners the US will look the other way.



Troops into our 'good friends' Saudi Arabia,  troops out of Syria ' a stab in the back ' according to the Kurds.
Now sanctions likely for Turkey. If only Trump tried better with a deal.


----------



## bellenuit

Knobby22 said:


> Interesting Bellnuit.
> 
> Watch FOX/Newscorp carefully. When they move against Trump it's going to be very interesting. Pence get ready.




It's already happening. Shepard Smith, one of their few fact based journalists, resigned abruptly (sort of on air) last night. See it here.



Drudge of The Drudge Report has all started to turn. And also Brian Kilmeade, one of the three stooges on one of Trump's favourite Fox shows, Fox and Friends, attacked Trump on air over his abandoning of the Kurds, much to the consternation of the the other two hosts.

About Drudge at the beginning and Kilmeade at around 3:30.


----------



## basilio

You have to read the opening statement by  Ex Ukraime diplomat Marie Yovanovitch to get a picture of how badly Donal Trump has corrupted the US diplomatic corp and the impact that is having on US influence around the  world.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...anovitch-ukraine-trump-opening-statement-full


----------



## sptrawler

bi-polar said:


> US aid to Ukraine funds everything from developmental aid to anti-tank missiles and Humvees.
> Thailand is granting emergency aid for Australia's failed rice harvest and peasant revolts. This will fund Thai Navy combat drones for surveillance of jounalists if Australia digs up dirt on the heroin dealer . Otherwise Canberra will starve.



Absolutely Thailand will be sending us aid, in three generations time.


----------



## qldfrog

There were some headlines from the fired US Ukraine ambassador complaining that Trump is now putti g his own interests in Ukraine ..ROL
After Biden story , seriously?
Nothing is too ridiculous for the democrats it seems


----------



## basilio

qldfrog said:


> There were some headlines from the fired US Ukraine ambassador complaining that Trump is now putti g his own interests in Ukraine ..ROL
> After Biden story , seriously?
> Nothing is too ridiculous for the democrats it seems




"Nothing is too ridiculous.." 

Indeed.. You are aware that the testimony in the House  regarding the circumstances  of Trump demanding her withdrawal as a diplomat were by a 30 year career diplomat. ?
Have you read her statement ?

You have to read the opening statement by Ex Ukraime diplomat Marie Yovanovitch to get a picture of how badly Donald Trump has corrupted the US diplomatic corp and the impact that is having on US influence around the world.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...anovitch-ukraine-trump-opening-statement-full


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> "Nothing is too ridiculous.."
> 
> Indeed.. You are aware that the testimony in the House  regarding the circumstances  of Trump demanding her withdrawal as a diplomat were by a 30 year career diplomat. ?
> Have you read her statement ?
> 
> You have to read the opening statement by Ex Ukraime diplomat Marie Yovanovitch to get a picture of how badly Donald Trump has corrupted the US diplomatic corp and the impact that is having on US influence around the world.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...anovitch-ukraine-trump-opening-statement-full



They voted to move the impeachment aĺong yet in the house? 

Taking their sweet time if its that important for the nation.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> They voted to move the impeachment aĺong yet in the house?
> 
> Taking their sweet time if its that important for the nation.




The original basis for the impeachment was the nature of Trumps call to the Ukrainian PM. Essentially he wanted the guy to do him a favour ie start an investigation on Donald Trumps political opponent Joe  Bidens son.* This action alone was an impeachable offence.*

The inquiry was accelerated by a whistle blower who  documented what had happened as well as providing extensive background information on earlier maneuverings by Trump and associates to force/encourage/persuade/bribe the Ukranian PM to play ball.

Since then the committee has a number of further State Department witnesses who want to testify on the issue.  When all of these witnesses have their say and the Trump staff also have the opportunity to explain what happened (or just take the  5th ) the committee will take action.

*One doesn't impeach a President and his staff in haste and without a thorough, detailed evidence trail of misbehaviour.*


----------



## basilio

Great summary of the impeachable criminality of Donald Trump.
And it is all out in the open. 

 Donald Trump 
* Donald Trump: xenophobe in public, international mobster in private *
Robert Reich
The founding fathers said betraying America to foreign powers was an impeachable offense. The president must go

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/13/donald-trump-ukraine-turkey-impeachment#img-1


----------



## Jason Lermount

It is quite worrying to think that there is a possibility he may not be impeached, whether or not you like trump, in not doing so the republicans are not only tainting their image but setting a precedent for criminality.


----------



## sptrawler

Jason Lermount said:


> It is quite worrying to think that there is a possibility he may not be impeached, whether or not you like trump, in not doing so the republicans are not only tainting their image but setting a precedent for criminality.



Well they have threatened it enough, everyone is starting to get impeach fatigue, meanwhile the China issue is coming to an end, no doubt the N Korea issue will come to an end and what does Trump say "Bazinga".


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The original basis for the impeachment was the nature of Trumps call to the Ukrainian PM. Essentially he wanted the guy to do him a favour ie start an investigation on Donald Trumps political opponent Joe  Bidens son.* This action alone was an impeachable offence.*
> 
> The inquiry was accelerated by a whistle blower who  documented what had happened as well as providing extensive background information on earlier maneuverings by Trump and associates to force/encourage/persuade/bribe the Ukranian PM to play ball.
> 
> Since then the committee has a number of further State Department witnesses who want to testify on the issue.  When all of these witnesses have their say and the Trump staff also have the opportunity to explain what happened (or just take the  5th ) the committee will take action.
> 
> *One doesn't impeach a President and his staff in haste and without a thorough, detailed evidence trail of misbehaviour.*



They didn't even vote on an official impeachment inquiry. So the above is more media wind.


----------



## sptrawler

Also the Boris Brexit issue looks as though it will be resolved, WOW what will the loony left start chanting about next.

I guess we will just have to read the SMH, or the Guardian, to see what is the next cab off the rank.


----------



## Jason Lermount

sptrawler said:


> Well they have threatened it enough, everyone is starting to get impeach fatigue, meanwhile the China issue is coming to an end, no doubt the N Korea issue will come to an end and what does Trump say "Bazinga".



Yeah the left have overused it on the basis of some loosely held claims. But this one is unquestionable, on the basis of principle and in order to uphold the accountability mechanisms within the American government, they have to impeach him, not doing so is leading down a dangerous road.


----------



## sptrawler

Jason Lermount said:


> Yeah the left have overused it on the basis of some loosely held claims. But this one is unquestionable, on the basis of principle and in order to uphold the accountability mechanisms within the American government, they have to impeach him, not doing so is leading down a dangerous road.



The problem is the left are overusing everything, I wondered today, why all the climate change, fossil fuel denouncers, weren't up at Mt Panorama Bathurst?
I guess they were all too busy watching it on T.V.
The school kids will probably be marching in the streets of Perth tomorrow in support of climate change, it is a student free day first Monday after school holidays, opportune time for them to voice their concerns while the teachers get ready.
Australia what a Country, Wally World IMO, a third World Country with a first world living standard. For now.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/motors...ictory-on-mount-panorama-20191013-p5305f.html


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> They didn't even vote on an official impeachment inquiry. So the above is more media wind.




Actually.... no..
Do you ever bother to read what has happened on the links in this thread.  Or is "more media wind" just the reflex denial response ?


----------



## wayneL

I'm gonna love the new crop of memes when the God Emporer wins 2020


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Actually.... no..
> Do you ever bother to read what has happened on the links in this thread.  Or is "more media wind" just the reflex denial response ?



Um yes, because there is still no vote. 
How many times have we gone down this road now. 
I'm not that interested in reading the rubbish from the Guardian. They have a consistent bias that never seems to lead anywhere. I'll wait for the vote before I give a crap.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Um yes, because there is still no vote.
> How many times have we gone down this road now.
> I'm not that interested in reading the rubbish from the Guardian. They have a consistent bias that never seems to lead anywhere. I'll wait for the vote before I give a crap.



I'm with you on this, all this fanfare and doomsaying about Trump and Johnson, what are the muppets going to go on about when Trump and Johnson achieve positive outcomes.

Then I suppose they will have to concentrate on another issue, that they can neither influence nor get right, just a group of people who have to rant to feel effective.
God help us if they got something right, we would never hear the end of it, a bit like when the Eagles win the grand final the papers and news in the West are full of it for weeks.


----------



## wayneL

Meanwhile, the left keeps debasing their constituency.

I love all this shxt, alienating voters, and eating their own.


----------



## basilio

I think its just fantastic watching the lying scheming sociopathic piece of merede currently debasing the  Presidency of the US being systematically exposed by  the professional diplomats, his staff and now his ex cheer squad. Pass the popcorn folks!

When John Bolton reckons the Prez has gone off track you have to wonder.

*Trump-Ukraine: John Bolton 'sounded alarm about Giuliani's actions'*

Fiona Hill testifies that Bolton called Giuliani a ‘hand grenade’
Hill says Bolton likened lawyer’s operation to a ‘drug deal’
Trump renews call for whistleblower to be unmasked - as it happened
Tom McCarthy in New York and Julian Borger in Washington
@TeeMcSee
Published on Mon 14 Oct 2019 23.56 EDT






Former national security adviser John Bolton described Rudy Giuliani’s actions in Ukraine as a ‘drug deal’. Photograph: Sergei Gapon/AFP/Getty Images
The former US national security adviser, John Bolton, was reportedly so alarmed at a back-channel effort to pressure Ukraine to investigate Donald Trump’s political rivals that he told a senior aide to report it to White House lawyers.

The revelation of Bolton’s involvement in the effort to block a shadow foreign policy aimed at Trump’s political benefit emerged from congressional testimony given by his former aide, Fiona Hill, the former top Russia expert in the White House.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/14/fiona-hill-testimony-trump-impeachment-inquiry

It's even more fun to watch the antics of rusted on Trumpites loyally depending their Thief in Chief as the evidence of criminality piles higher and higher.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I think its just fantastic watching the lying scheming sociopathic piece of merede currently debasing the  Presidency of the US being systematically exposed by  the professional diplomats, his staff and now his ex cheer squad. Pass the popcorn folks!



They having that vote to impeach yet? Surely they have clear undeniable  evidence they can bring forward?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> They having that vote to impeach yet? Surely they have clear undeniable  evidence they can bring forward?




Yeah ? For what purpose ?

How about waiting to hear all the evidence.  Is anything that has been said to date by diplomats and staff  give you cause for concern about the behavior of Donal Trrump ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Yeah ? For what purpose ?
> 
> How about waiting to hear all the evidence.  Is anything that has been said to date by diplomats and staff  give you cause for concern about the behavior of Donal Trrump ?



I don't think there is much doubt that Trumps a dodgy prck. But so are the rest of them. Holding off impeachment  just to see if the polls are favorable- hardly instill confidence that anyone is worried about alleged crimes committed.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> give you cause for concern about the behavior of Donal Trrump ?



Yeah a lot. So did every other US president.  

Its out in the open with Trump. He has addressed more problems (that needed addressing), in his time, then the last few presidents over their full terms. Thats his only saving grace. 

 The Democrats are some of the most corrupt lying turds on the planet. Them pointing fingers at Trump is pot/kettle stuff.


----------



## wayneL

He definitely has a point


----------



## SirRumpole

US unemployment rate under Trump a continuation of Obama.

So has he done anything really ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...inuation-from-obamas-presidency/#46cbfa9a1af3


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> US unemployment rate under Trump a continuation of Obama.
> 
> So has he done anything really ?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...inuation-from-obamas-presidency/#46cbfa9a1af3



Under Obama the greatest unsustainable fiscal stimulus ever seen in the history of the planet, under Trump just stepping out of the goddamn way and letting business do what they do.

A continuation of Obama is an absolute furphy, sorry.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Under Obama the greatest unsustainable fiscal stimulus ever seen in the history of the planet, under Trump just stepping out of the goddamn way and letting business do what they do.
> 
> A continuation of Obama is an absolute furphy, sorry.




Lots of signs that what is happening now in the US economy is unsustainable, sorry.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/us-retail-sales-september-2019.html


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Lots of signs that what is happening now in the US economy is unsustainable, sorry.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/us-retail-sales-september-2019.html



I think the pseudo-Keynesian stimuli of the previous decade have made economies of most western (and other) economies unsustainable. Although current incumbents are by no means preventing that unsustainability, the rot set in, in Obama's et al tenure.

Sorrynotsorry.


----------



## IFocus

SirRumpole said:


> US unemployment rate under Trump a continuation of Obama.
> 
> So has he done anything really ?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...inuation-from-obamas-presidency/#46cbfa9a1af3




The answer is yes Trump has remember the greatest ever tax cuts.......unfunded, Trump is a genius punters will pickup the tab.


----------



## basilio

Loved this zinger. 
The whole story is a ripper.

*'He earned his spurs from a doctor': James Mattis mocks Trump*
Ex-defence secretary responds to US president calling him ‘the world’s most overrated general’

The former US defence secretary James Mattis has laughed off an insult hurled at him by Donald Trump.

Speaking at a New York charity event on Thursday, the day after the US president demeaned him as “the world’s most overrated general”, Mattis joked that he took it as a compliment.

“I’m not just an overrated general. I’m the greatest, the world’s most overrated,” he told diners at the annual Alfred E Smith Memorial Foundation dinner.

“I’m honoured to be considered that by Donald Trump because he also called Meryl Streep an overrated actress,” he said. “So I guess I’m the Meryl Streep of generals, and frankly that sounds pretty good to me.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/18/james-mattis-mocks-donald-trump-overrated-general
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/def...-mattis-roasts-donald-trump/story?id=66358021


----------



## basilio

When a Quid pro quo, not a Quid pro quo ?
*Cooper: This eclipses all impeachment inquiry developments*
Situation Roo
CNN's Anderson Cooper examines the statements, and subsequent back-pedaling, made by acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney during a press conference.
Source: CNN


----------



## IFocus

basilio said:


> When a Quid pro quo, not a Quid pro quo ?
> *Cooper: This eclipses all impeachment inquiry developments*
> Situation Roo
> CNN's Anderson Cooper examines the statements, and subsequent back-pedaling, made by acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney during a press conference.
> Source: CNN





You have to wonder the madness that's happening behind the scenes guess we will find out after Trump moves on I recon there could be 40 to 50 books on how the insanity of the whole administration the Emperor can only walk around with no clothes for so long.

I still think Trump will get re-elected and wont be bothered by the impeachment stuff but will set him up for problems in the next term IMHO.


----------



## basilio

*Trump the predator *

A new book uncovers fresh allegations of the president’s inappropriate sexual behaviour

Barry Levine and Monique El-Faizy, additional reporting by Lucy Osborne

Sat 19 Oct 2019 04.58 EDT


 
Shares
1,407




Donald Trump attends_ The Miss Universe Guide to Beauty_ book launch at Trump Tower, New York, in 2006. Photograph: Patrick McMullan/Getty Images
We all know the story by now. In 2005, Donald Trump was caught on tape bragging that his fame allowed him to sexually assault women. In 2016, as he was running for president, that recording, the so-called Access Hollywood tape, was made public, resulting in a stream of women coming forward and alleging that Trump had groped or otherwise sexually assaulted them. He was elected anyway; the women’s stories didn’t seem to matter. But they should.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/19/trump-predator-new-book-fresh-allegations


----------



## basilio

*Meltdown': Donald Trump and the impeachment week from hell *
The 1,000th day of a norm-busting presidency arrived this week. It was as chaotic and frightening as most of the rest
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nald-trump-impeachment-pelosi-romney-mulvaney


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> I still think Trump will get re-elected and wont be bothered by the impeachment stuff but will set him up for problems in the next term IMHO.



Well that gives you guys another four years, of being able to naysay and another four years we have to listen to it.


----------



## basilio

Latest testimony from Ambassador  Bill Taylor  is very specific about how the Trump administration  demanded that the Ukrainian Government publicly announce an investigation into Joe Biden son's before approving military support.

inquiry 
* US envoy says Trump used military aid to push Ukraine to investigate Biden *

Ambassador Bill Taylor’s testimony met with ‘sighs and gasps’
Push to target Biden described in leaked testimony – live

Julian Borger in Washington

Tue 22 Oct 2019 18.01 EDT   First published on Tue 22 Oct 2019 14.31 EDT

Shares
294




Ambassador William Taylor arrives to testify before House committees as part of the Democrats’ impeachment investigation of Donald Trump on Tuesday. Photograph: J Scott Applewhite/AP
The acting US ambassador to Kyiv has provided congressional committees conducting impeachment hearings a detailed account of how Donald Trump repeatedly sought to make a summit meeting and military aid to Ukraine conditional on its government launching investigations into the president’s political opponents.

Bill Taylor’s testimony was the latest in a series of depositions by serving and former administration officials, as part of the impeachment inquiry, about Trump’s use of the presidency to put pressure on the Ukrainian government to procure compromising information on his political rivals. And it was the most detailed and damning to date.

Taylor, who took over as acting ambassador in June, presented his testimony behind closed doors on Capitol Hill but copies of his opening statement soon leaked.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-bill-taylor-ukraine-trump-military-aid-biden


----------



## basilio

Check out Ambassadors Bill Taylor opening statement to the Congressional committee.

The T's are crossed. The I's are dotted. This statement of events around the Trump administration efforts to pressure the Ukrainian government destroys any fig leaf of credibility Donald Trump has a President.

Don't take  my word for it. Spend 10 minutes reading the statement.
Then consider what was said for the next 9 hours of interview.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-t...f-the-top-us-diplomats-statement-to-congress/


----------



## moXJO

They want to vote on impeachment soon.  Or they can kiss 2020 goodbye.

 I heard Hillary wanted to run again as well.


----------



## wayneL

I predict every president from now on will face impeachment investigations, unless this blows the **** up in the Dem's faces... which it probably will.


----------



## moXJO

Dems are waiting for the poll numbers to turn in their favor for impeachment. Generally the longer it goes, the more people start to get on board for impeachment. They want to have solid evidence though as the "witnesses" will be torn apart on the stand.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> I predict every president from now on will face impeachment investigations, unless this blows the **** up in the Dem's faces... which it probably will.



Already occurs. And will continue I agree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Barack_Obama

It's just that Trump has made it pretty easy to achieve in this case.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Already occurs. And will continue I agree.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Barack_Obama
> 
> It's just that Trump has made it pretty easy to achieve in this case.



No it doesn't, read the relevant clauses in the US Constitution.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> I predict every president from now on will face impeachment investigations, unless this blows the **** up in the Dem's faces... which it probably will.




I suggest you have to a well proven lying, sociopathitic, corrupt Prez  with a ton of easily provable examples and a host of external reliable witnesses who are prepared to testify.

But if the Republicians are in power all bets are off aren't they ? You can start with Birtherism allegations and move  on to mass murders. In fact we just have to trawl the troll buckets of the last election to find any number of  "lock her up" allegations don't we ?

And anyhow who needs proof as long you have the numbers eh Wayne?

_____________________________________

By the way did you know that The Prez actually pinches his best lines from Marvel comics ?..


----------



## wayneL

Thread @basilio


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> I suggest you have to a well proven lying, sociopathitic, corrupt Prez  with a ton of easily provable examples and a host of external reliable witnesses who are prepared to testify.
> 
> But if the Republicians are in power all bets are off aren't they ? You can start with Birtherism allegations and move  on to mass murders. In fact we just have to trawl the troll buckets of the last election to find any number of  "lock her up" allegations don't we ?
> 
> And anyhow who needs proof as long you have the numbers eh Wayne?
> 
> _____________________________________
> 
> By the way did you know that The Prez actually pinches his best lines from Marvel comics ?..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 98179



As a point of order, I have never partaken in the birther etc conspiracies,so have no idea why you are directing that at me.

But are you any better than them, bazzz?


----------



## SirRumpole

Nice Christmas present Trump just gave Putin, I'm sure he had his eyes on Syria for a while.

A few more golf clubs in Russia in return ?


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> Nice Christmas present Trump just gave Putin, I'm sure he had his eyes on Syria for a while.
> 
> A few more golf clubs in Russia in return ?




Russia has shown they can be trusted to take it to the USA.
China is trying to do the same in Africa.
The world sucks.


----------



## moXJO

Middle East is a money pit and a meat grinder for soldiers. It wasn't that long ago people were complaining that troops were dying needlessly. 

The Syrian troops Obama backed are now as bad as Isis. Let Russia clean it up they already beat the rebels anyway.


----------



## basilio

The testimony of  Ambassador Bill Taylor is a game turner.
He will come back to the congressional investigators and make public statements with emails, memos , a timeline. The lot.

Bill has served 4 administrations as well as a career in the armed services. Meticulous and trusted .

* Will loyalists turn against Trump after Bill Taylor’s game-changing testimony? *
Diplomat added significant ballast to the allegation Trump was trying to extort Ukraine into ginning up bad news about Biden


What Bill Taylor’s impeachment inquiry testimony tells us
Tom McCarthy in New York

 
 @TeeMcSee 
 
 Email 
Wed 23 Oct 2019 11.46 EDT   Last modified on Wed 23 Oct 2019 11.58 EDT

Shares
179





Donald Trump listens as Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, speaks to the press during a meeting in New York on the sidelines of the United Nations general assembly on 25 September. Photograph: Saul Loeb/AFP via Getty Images
The impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump has heard some extraordinary testimony over the last month. From the first mention of Trump’s desired “deliverable” from Ukraine, successive layers of witnesses and documents have added to an indictment of the president’s conduct that only gets heavier, as Trump howls his defenses to the wind.






*  Trump impeachment catch-up: where we are now  *
Read more
On Tuesday, things got even worse for Trump – much worse, as many saw it.

For almost 10 hours, William Taylor, a former military officer and career diplomat with the rank of ambassador under the last four presidents, spoke with congressional investigators about how the Trump administration has been conducting a two-track foreign policy in Ukraine, where Taylor is in charge of the US embassy.

We don’t yet know most of what was said. The current public record of the closed-door testimony comprises only a copy of Taylor’s 15-page opening statement – and the spectacle of the ashen faces of members of Congress as they filed out from the hearing.

“This testimony is a sea change,” congressman Stephen Lynch told reporters.


----------



## basilio

Details of Bill Taylors testimony
 
* What Bill Taylor’s impeachment inquiry testimony tells us *
The Ukraine diplomat said Trump put pressure on Zelenskiy to investigate Biden and gave the most detailed account so far

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...achment-inquiry-bill-taylor-ukraine-testimony


----------



## moXJO

Interesting to see that the investigation into who and why the "Russian collusion" was opened has now turned into a criminal investigation. Wonder if any dems and fbi will be swept up.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Interesting to see that the investigation into who and why the "Russian collusion" was opened has now turned into a criminal investigation. Wonder if any dems and fbi will be swept up.




Probably a lot, but not justifiably. The corrupt White House and GOP will do everything in its power to try and tarnish the impeachment process, even if it means using trumped up (pun intended) allegations against not just political enemies, but anyone whose reputation it needs to tarnish to make it look like the Russian Collusion was a deep state conspiracy. How many of Trumps associates need to be jailed or charged before it clicks where the corruption is?


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 98242




I think there will be some quite  confronting information in Muellers report that will implicate more of Trumps administration in the  Russian efforts to undermine the Democrats. I suspect there will be security implications as well as legal issues to do with upcoming or proposed charges.

When will "black be seen as black" ? God knows.  If we see ASF as some sort of microcosm  of  the larger political picture, then acknowledgement by the rusted on Trumpites on ASF that what  has happened under the Trump administration was wrong and should be punished  would be a signal.

Perhaps when hell freezes over ?


----------



## Knobby22

There is a book out and the author is here. I heard him speak on the radio and it he was so funny.
Arnold Palmer etc. Really funny golf stories featuring Trump. The Lee Travino one had me splitting my sides.
Might have to buy the book. Below is copied direct from Amazon.

*NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER*
"Reilly pokes more holes in Trump's claims than there are sand traps on all of his courses combined. It is by turns amusing and alarming."* -- The New Yorker*

"Golf is the spine of this shocking, wildly humorous book, but humanity is its flesh and spirit." *-- Chicago Sun-Times*

"Every one of Trump's most disgusting qualities surfaces in golf." *-- The Ringer
An outrageous indictment of Donald Trump's appalling behavior when it comes to golf -- on and off the green -- and what it reveals about his character.*

Donald Trump loves golf. He loves to play it, buy it, build it, and operate it. He owns 14 courses around the world and runs another five, all of which he insists are the best on the planet. He also claims he's a 3 handicap, almost never loses, and has won an astonishing 18 club championships.

How much of all that is true? Almost none of it, acclaimed sportswriter Rick Reilly reveals in this unsparing look at Trump in the world of golf.

Based on Reilly's own experiences with Trump as well as interviews with over 100 golf pros, amateurs, developers, and caddies, _Commander in Cheat _is a startling and at times hilarious indictment of Trump and his golf game. You'll learn how Trump cheats (sometimes with the help of his caddies and Secret Service agents), lies about his scores (the "Trump Bump"), tells whoppers about the rank of his courses and their worth (declaring that every one of them is worth $50 million), and tramples the etiquette of the game (driving on greens doesn't help). Trump doesn't brag so much, though, about the golf contractors he stiffs, the course neighbors he intimidates, or the way his golf decisions wind up infecting his political ones.

For Trump, it's always about winning. To do it, he uses the tricks he picked up from the hustlers at the public course where he learned the game as a college kid, and then polished as one of the most bombastic businessmen of our time. As Reilly writes, "Golf is like bicycle shorts. It reveals a lot about a man." _Commander in Cheat _"paints a side-splitting portrait of a congenital cheater" (_Esquire_), revealing all kinds of unsightly truths Trump has been hiding.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Probably a lot, but not justifiably. The corrupt White House and GOP will do everything in its power to try and tarnish the impeachment process, even if it means using trumped up (pun intended) allegations against not just political enemies, but anyone whose reputation it needs to tarnish to make it look like the Russian Collusion was a deep state conspiracy. How many of Trumps associates need to be jailed or charged before it clicks where the corruption is?



I actually think a few dems are up the creek. The collusion case has stunk since it was first pushed. The Kavanaugh hearings also stunk.

There is no impeachment process. Its a bunch of dems in the basement hiding information from the house. I'm sure Crenshaw even pointed out they were breaking the rules according to the house as well. 
The other thing in a "quid pro quo" investigation is that you need a quo.  The majority is basically "I heard it from a guy" type stuff.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> There is a book out and the author is here. I heard him speak on the radio and it he was so funny.
> Arnold Palmer etc. Really funny golf stories featuring Trump. The Lee Travino one had me splitting my sides.
> Might have to buy the book. Below is copied direct from Amazon.
> 
> *NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER*
> "Reilly pokes more holes in Trump's claims than there are sand traps on all of his courses combined. It is by turns amusing and alarming."* -- The New Yorker*
> 
> "Golf is the spine of this shocking, wildly humorous book, but humanity is its flesh and spirit." *-- Chicago Sun-Times*
> 
> "Every one of Trump's most disgusting qualities surfaces in golf." *-- The Ringer
> An outrageous indictment of Donald Trump's appalling behavior when it comes to golf -- on and off the green -- and what it reveals about his character.*
> 
> Donald Trump loves golf. He loves to play it, buy it, build it, and operate it. He owns 14 courses around the world and runs another five, all of which he insists are the best on the planet. He also claims he's a 3 handicap, almost never loses, and has won an astonishing 18 club championships.
> 
> How much of all that is true? Almost none of it, acclaimed sportswriter Rick Reilly reveals in this unsparing look at Trump in the world of golf.
> 
> Based on Reilly's own experiences with Trump as well as interviews with over 100 golf pros, amateurs, developers, and caddies, _Commander in Cheat _is a startling and at times hilarious indictment of Trump and his golf game. You'll learn how Trump cheats (sometimes with the help of his caddies and Secret Service agents), lies about his scores (the "Trump Bump"), tells whoppers about the rank of his courses and their worth (declaring that every one of them is worth $50 million), and tramples the etiquette of the game (driving on greens doesn't help). Trump doesn't brag so much, though, about the golf contractors he stiffs, the course neighbors he intimidates, or the way his golf decisions wind up infecting his political ones.
> 
> For Trump, it's always about winning. To do it, he uses the tricks he picked up from the hustlers at the public course where he learned the game as a college kid, and then polished as one of the most bombastic businessmen of our time. As Reilly writes, "Golf is like bicycle shorts. It reveals a lot about a man." _Commander in Cheat _"paints a side-splitting portrait of a congenital cheater" (_Esquire_), revealing all kinds of unsightly truths Trump has been hiding.



Now this I believe.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> There is no impeachment process. Its a bunch of dems in the basement hiding information from the house. I'm sure Crenshaw even pointed out they were breaking the rules according to the house as well.




How immune can you be, moXJO, from what is actually going on. Are you not even aware that the Reps have their people in on the investigation? Did you not read Judge Howell's conclusion in the excerpt from the NY Times a few posts up. As regards them breaking the rules, here is Fox News's Kilmeade being schooled by their own analyst on judicial matters, Judge Napolitano.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/judge...chiff-just-following-the-rules-written-by-gop


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> How immune can you be, moXJO, from what is actually going on. Are you not even aware that the Reps have their people in on the investigation? Did you not read Judge Howell's conclusion in the excerpt from the NY Times a few posts up. As regards them breaking the rules, here is Fox News's Kilmeade being schooled by their own analyst on judicial matters, Judge Napolitano.
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/judge...chiff-just-following-the-rules-written-by-gop



Wheres the vote? 
I'm fully aware of the implications. But it won't mean sht if they don't have a smoking gun.

This is how many attempts to take Trump down?
Its been smoke and mirrors all the way through. Media said he was gone for Russian collusion and that ended up as bs. I'll wait till they actually vote to impeach before believing some closed door event, in which they leak info out of context.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> in which they leak info out of context.




Those were written public opening statements by those being questioned


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Those were written public opening statements by those being questioned



There is selected stuff at this stage being leaked. Transcripts were not released to house members. Hence the blow up.

Your article on judge napolitano is more crap. The Republicans let house members in to the closed door sessions and were allowed to ask questions via sitting members. Its more dem bs.


Once again its trial by media to swing votes. I'd be surprised if they get a result.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Your article on judge napolitano is more crap.




You said they broke the rules. They didn't.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> You said they broke the rules. They didn't.



All committee hearings, records, data, charts, and files shall be kept separate and distinct from the congressional office records of the member serving as its chairman. Such records shall be the property of the House, and each Member, Delegate, and the Resident Commissioner shall have access thereto.”)

Page 549 of the house rules.
The dems are running trial by media again.


----------



## IFocus

To be honest Mo I think Trump did collude with the Russians (all be it remotely) and there appears little doubt about the current situation with Ukraine.

Having said that he will likely get re-elected damaging US politics / institutions for ever the rot always starts at the head.


----------



## basilio

Another dive into the rabbit warren of Trumps "idiosyncrasies".
What blew me away was the response of his Press secretery.
Pure, rolled gold..
* Trump hits out at former chief of staff John Kelly's warning about impeachment *

Kelly’s remarks come as testimony resumes in the impeachment inquiry, which the president has called a ‘scam’
Donald Trump has hit back at his former chief of staff, John Kelly, after Kelly said he had warned the president about impeachment.

Kelly said he “felt bad” for having left Trump’s side, because his advice was not followed and the president therefore faced impeachment.

Speaking at the Sea Island Summit, an event in Georgia organised by the conservative Washington Examiner, Kelly said that on leaving, he had said: “Whatever you do, don’t hire a ‘yes man’ – someone who won’t tell you the truth.”

“Don’t do that,” the retired marine general said he had told Trump. “Because if you do, I believe you will be impeached.”

CNN reported that the US president denied Kelly’s remarks.

“John Kelly never said that,” Trump said, according to CNN. “He never anything like that.

“If he would have said that I would have thrown him out of the office. He just wants to come back into the action like everybody else.”

*The White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, confirmed Trump’s response: “I worked with John Kelly, 
and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President.” *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ent-state-official-philip-reeker-donald-trump*
*


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> *and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President.*




Something you would expect from an aide to the NK's Great Leader Kim.

This from the Genius. Trump said at a rally a few days ago that he was going to build a wall along the border of Colorado. When it was subsequently pointed out to him that Colorado didn't border Mexico, he tried to claim that he was only joking.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> To be honest Mo I think Trump did collude with the Russians (all be it remotely) and there appears little doubt about the current situation with Ukraine.
> 
> Having said that he will likely get re-elected damaging US politics / institutions for ever the rot always starts at the head.



I'd say there was more collusion from the dem side. That steele dossier didn't appear from nowhere,  along with the goings on of the fbi at the time.

If you honestly think that if Trump did collude. And that it wouldn't have been found out by the tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of lawyers, investigative journalists, billionaires and general wackjob leftist. Then it stuns  how stupid they all must be. If Trump farted, alone... it would end up in the news the following minute.

We have smear tactics and thats about it. Everyone everywhere has been searching for dirt on trump and every incident has been a stretch to far and just made up bs. Jussie smollett is the perfect example of how far the left is willing to go. 
Yeah trumps a dodgy prck. But the dems are a whole lot worse. 

I'm 50/50 on trump winning. Getting the head of isis is another tick thats making his Syria play look a lot better than last week.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Another dive into the rabbit warren of Trumps "idiosyncrasies".
> What blew me away was the response of his Press secretery.
> Pure, rolled gold..
> * Trump hits out at former chief of staff John Kelly's warning about impeachment *
> 
> Kelly’s remarks come as testimony resumes in the impeachment inquiry, which the president has called a ‘scam’
> Donald Trump has hit back at his former chief of staff, John Kelly, after Kelly said he had warned the president about impeachment.
> 
> Kelly said he “felt bad” for having left Trump’s side, because his advice was not followed and the president therefore faced impeachment.
> 
> Speaking at the Sea Island Summit, an event in Georgia organised by the conservative Washington Examiner, Kelly said that on leaving, he had said: “Whatever you do, don’t hire a ‘yes man’ – someone who won’t tell you the truth.”
> 
> “Don’t do that,” the retired marine general said he had told Trump. “Because if you do, I believe you will be impeached.”
> 
> CNN reported that the US president denied Kelly’s remarks.
> 
> “John Kelly never said that,” Trump said, according to CNN. “He never anything like that.
> 
> “If he would have said that I would have thrown him out of the office. He just wants to come back into the action like everybody else.”
> 
> *The White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, confirmed Trump’s response: “I worked with John Kelly,
> and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President.” *
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ent-state-official-philip-reeker-donald-trump



To understand trump you have to research his mentor. That guy was a beast.


----------



## sptrawler

It looks as though the U.S has had a major breakthrough with ISIS, taking out their leader, there must be some amazing technology around to track people.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-dead-trump-says/11644372


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> It looks as though the U.S has had a major breakthrough with ISIS, taking out their leader, there must be some amazing technology around to track people.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-dead-trump-says/11644372




More likely human intel, one of his previous supporters paid off perhaps.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> More likely human intel, one of his previous supporters paid off perhaps.



They were saying that there has been a lot of activity since the U.S withdrawl, so someone obviously got careless, one way or another.


----------



## sptrawler

Sounds like a joint effort, with other Countries giving clearance for U.S special forces to traverse their airspace.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...-bakr-al-baghdadi-operation-unfolded/11644712

From the article:
_The operation began on Saturday afternoon (US time) when a team of elite US troops were flown to a compound in Syria's north-western Idlib province.

The troops were from the Delta Force, one of the US special units mainly focused on counter-terrorism and often deployed to capture high-value targets.

Special operations forces *left in eight military helicopters from a US base and flew for more than an hour over heavily militarised territory* controlled by multiple nations, including Russian and Syrian forces.

Ahead of the raid, the US had to secure permission from Russia, Iraq and Turkey to fly over their airspace, according to Mr Trump and national security adviser Robert O'Brien_ .


----------



## bellenuit

Trump has been saying that those who testified regarding his Ukrainian phone call are going on second hand information. But.....


----------



## basilio

I wonder .... .

When will the Trump followers accept that diplomats and officials who directly knew of the pressures put on the Ukrainian government to be Donald Trumps political hackmen should be believed ...  and therefore Donald Trump is unfit to be President ?


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> I wonder .... .
> 
> When will the Trump followers accept that diplomats and officials who directly knew of the pressures put on the Ukrainian government to be Donald Trumps political hackmen should be believed ...  and therefore Donald Trump is unfit to be President ?




You are aware of the term "rusted on" ?


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> I wonder .... .
> 
> When will the Trump followers accept that diplomats and officials who directly knew of the pressures put on the Ukrainian government to be Donald Trumps political hackmen should be believed ...  and therefore Donald Trump is unfit to be President ?



The first problem Bas, is to find someone in Australia other than you and the press, who gives a $hit.
That is the problem, some who talk in echo chambers find out too late, as was proven last election.
Dont confuse lack of interest, with believing in, as I said most normal Aussies dont give a rats a×÷$e about Trump, nor hearing about his daily indescretions. Most have more interest in conversations about Australian issues.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> most normal Aussies dont give a rats a×÷$e about Trump,




Won't accept that line  SP.  "normal Aussie " not carings  that the President of the most powerful country on the earth, the "Leader of the Free World " being a creature like Donald Trump ?  

Yep I can see a number of people  who might not notice. But frankly most of the people I mix with do recognise how dangerous Donald Trump is to the economies, the environment, world order and overwhelmingly the role of democratic governments and the rule of law.

 I agree .  It's not "House Rules" or "The Bachelorette " stuff.  But it is a big deal.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Won't accept that line  SP.  "normal Aussie " not carings  that the President of the most powerful country on the earth, the "Leader of the Free World " being a creature like Donald Trump ?
> 
> Yep I can see a number of people  who might not notice. But frankly most of the people I mix with do recognise how dangerous Donald Trump is to the economies, the environment, world order and overwhelmingly the role of democratic governments and the rule of law.
> 
> I agree .  It's not "House Rules" or "The Bachelorette " stuff.  But it is a big deal.



I didn't think you would understand.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> I didn't think you would understand.



I'm disappointed you don't care.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> I'm disappointed you don't care.



I've got plenty to care about, in my immediate sphere of responsibility.


----------



## qldfrog

I will care when Bidden will be in jail for corruption in Ukraine
He made money from his position in the US government and had a prosecutor sacked.
And going after Trump for trying to raise this with the Ukrainian gov?
Seriously?
That's what the voices of freedom and moral integrity are doing?


----------



## basilio

qldfrog said:


> I will care when Bidden will be in jail for corruption in Ukraine
> He made money from his position in the US government and had a prosecutor sacked.
> And going after Trump for trying to raise this with the Ukrainian gov?
> Seriously?
> That's what the voices of freedom and moral integrity are doing?




Are you serious ?     Of course you are. 
That doesn't mean it makes it any sense or has any evidence to back it up.
It certainly doesn't mean Donald Trump has any business trying to strongarm  another country into creating a fake investigation to undermine his political opponent.

*...While at the same time said Donald Trump oversees  the use of the Presidential office to create family corruption on a scale unheard of in US history.*


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## sptrawler

OOps looks like another dud.


----------



## bellenuit

Comparison of a real idiot vs a real president. I expect some will mix them up.


----------



## basilio

"Comparison of a real idiot vs a real president. I expect some will mix them up."
Priceless...


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> "Comparison of a real idiot vs a real president. I expect some will mix them up."
> Priceless...



Hey baz, Obama was talking about the likes of you, bro.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Hey baz, Obama was talking about the likes of you, bro.




Ha Ha.  Dumb and Dumber..


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> Hey baz, Obama was talking about the likes of you, bro.



I think you are spot on, there is no doubt who Obama is talking about here.

He urged people to be more compromising and accepting because "the world is messy, there are ambiguities, and people who do really good stuff have flaws."


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> He urged people to be more compromising and accepting because "the world is messy, there are ambiguities, and people who do really good stuff have flaws."




I can hear those sentiments. It is more forgiving, more nuanced and acknowledges there are few living saints.
John McCain for example was a conservative politican I respected and despite a messy private life (at one stage) did much for the US.


----------



## basilio

The impeachment progress.
 
* Trump impeachment: what is the House voting on and why is it important? *
Vote to formalize process is expected to pass along party lines, and public hearings could begin as early as 12 November
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/31/impeachment-resolution-house-vote-what-happens-next


----------



## basilio

The damage Trump is doing to US interests.
*Impeachment inquiry transcripts reveal shock and concern over Trump plot*

Yovanovitch and McKinley warned plot undermined national security
*Two senior American diplomats warned congressional investigators a White House plot to manufacture political dirt on Joe Biden in Ukraine had undermined US national security interests and shredded faith among foreign service personnel,* according to transcripts released on Monday by committees pursuing an impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump.




Trump rejects whistleblower offer to answer Republican questions
Read more
One of the diplomats, former ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, described her “shock” to discover that Rudy Giuliani, Trump’s personal emissary who has also worked for Ukrainian and Russian interests, was attempting to destroy her reputation.

When she sought advice on how to staunch the attack, she said, she was told to tweet something nice about Trump.

The second diplomat, P Michael McKinley, described how his dawning awareness of the White House plot to attack Biden, combined with the failure of the state department to support Yovanovitch, led him to resign.

“To see the emerging information on the engagement of our missions to procure negative political information for domestic purposes,” McKinley testified, “combined with the failure I saw in the building to provide support for our professional cadre in a particularly trying time, I think the combination was a pretty good reason to decide … I had no longer a useful role to play.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ipts-reveal-shock-and-concern-over-trump-plot


----------



## basilio

Now even Trump appointees are revising their testimony on the "quid pro quo"
*Sondland admits quid pro quo with Ukraine testimony*
The explosive revelations in the extra four pages of testimony from Gordon Sondland are detailed in this story from the New York Times.

Crucially, Sondland said that “resumption of the US aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anticorruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks”.

The Times writes of these new facts thus:

_A critical witness in the impeachment inquiry offered Congress substantial new testimony this week, revealing that he told a top Ukrainian official that the country likely would not receive American military aid unless it publicly committed to investigations President Trump wanted._

_The disclosure from Gordon D. Sondland, the United States ambassador to the European Union, in four new pages of sworn testimony released on Tuesday, confirmed his involvement in essentially laying out a quid pro quo to Ukraine that he had previously not acknowledged._

_[...] In his updated testimony, Mr. Sondland recounted how he had discussed the linkage with Andriy Yermak, a top adviser to President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, on the sidelines of a Sept. 1 meeting between Vice President Mike Pence and Mr. Zelensky in Warsaw. Mr. Zelensky had discussed the suspension of aid with Mr. Pence, Mr. Sondland said: “I said that resumption of the U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anticorruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks,” Mr. Sondland said in the document, which was released by the House committees leading the inquiry, along with the transcript of his original testimony from last month._

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...08c2d1f80da406#block-5dc1c5f48f08c2d1f80da406


----------



## basilio

This is what happens when you want to create your own reality...






*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump* Nov 3

If Shifty Adam Schiff, who is a corrupt politician who fraudulently made up what I said on the “call,” is allowed to release transcripts of the Never Trumpers & others that are & were interviewed, he will change the words that were said to suit the Dems purposes. Republicans...

12,944 replies    19,127 retweets    74,928 likes







*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump*


....should give their own transcripts of the interviews to contrast with Schiff’s manipulated propaganda. House Republicans must have nothing to do with Shifty’s rendition of those interviews. He is a proven liar, leaker & freak who is really the one who should be impeached!

4:48 PM - 3 Nov 2019


----------



## basilio

Where Donald Trump is taking the US. 

*Teri Kanefield Trump and Giuliani's impeachment defense pushes America closer to a 'mafia state'*
Trump and Giuliani are operating as if Trump is — or owns — the United States.




Donald Trump walks with Rudolph Giuliani through the new Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC, on Sept. 16, 2016.Mike Segar / Reuters file
Nov. 5, 2019, 8:28 PM AEDT
By Teri Kanefield, attorney and author
Neither President Donald Trump nor his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani deny the underlying facts of the allegations at the heart of the impeachment inquiry. This seems like a relatively crazy thing to do, given that Democrats are out for blood — but they really have no choice given how much is already public. So instead of denying the facts, Trump’s defense appears to be: Yes, we did it, but there was nothing wrong with it.

*Instead of denying the facts, Trump’s defense appears to be: Yes, we did it, but there was nothing wrong with it.*

The “there was nothing wrong with it” defense does triple duty: It gives Trump’s surrogates something to argue, it muddies the water and confuses people with its sheer audacity, and — most important — it pushes the United States one step closer to becoming what the Hungarian scholar Bálint Magyar calls a “mafia state” to describe the kind of autocracies we see springing up in the former Soviet Union.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...pushes-america-closer-mafia-state-ncna1076261


----------



## kahuna1

A new low ...

Trumps new main advisor ...

I kid you not .... she speaks in tongues.



Bennie Hinds ex girlfriend ... you know that screeching pastor on TV ... 

Trumps number one girl. Ivanka is OUT !!


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump "I only hire the best people"

Paula White. "The Devils handmaiden or Gods appointed  saviour ?"

You couldn't make this up.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-spir...dents-opponents-suggests-they-operate-1470197


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> Donald Trump "I only hire the best people"
> 
> Paula White. "The Devils handmaiden or Gods appointed  saviour ?"
> 
> You couldn't make this up.
> https://www.newsweek.com/trump-spir...dents-opponents-suggests-they-operate-1470197



Wow! If you made it up you would be considered over the top!


----------



## basilio

How much tax would Billionaires pay in the US under Elizabeth Warren ?

Check it out




 Elizabeth Warren *✔*  @ewarren 

 
Welcome to the race, @MikeBloomberg! If you're looking for policy plans that will make a huge difference for working people and which are very popular, start here: http://ewar.ren/billionaire-calculator …

 





*A Calculator For The Billionaires | Elizabeth Warren*
Some billionaires seem confused about how much they would pay under Elizabeth’s Ultra-Millionaire Tax. Don’t worry, now we have a calculator for that too.

elizabethwarren.com  
 

 10.3K 
 10:13 AM - Nov 8, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy


3,013 people are talking about this


----------



## basilio

The Billionaire wealth tax is clever.
Applicable to 75,000 of the wealthiest people in the US.
Would be 6% of the their gross assets. If your worth $100b you pay $6 billion
Example

*Charles Koch would pay $2.551 billion next year under Elizabeth’s wealth tax.*
Charles Koch has a net worth of $43,200,000,000.

Don’t worry too much about Charles Koch - if history is any guide, if billionaires do nothing other than invest their wealth in the stock market, it’s likely that their wealth will continue to grow.

Elizabeth’s wealth tax, which only impacts America’s 75,000 wealthiest families, would generate enough revenue to cover universal child care, quality public education, forgive student loan debt, provide free public college, and help finance Medicare for All.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> The Billionaire wealth tax is clever.
> Applicable to 75,000 of the wealthiest people in the US.
> Would be 6% of the their gross assets. If your worth $100b you pay $6 billion
> Example
> 
> *Charles Koch would pay $2.551 billion next year under Elizabeth’s wealth tax.*
> Charles Koch has a net worth of $43,200,000,000.
> 
> Don’t worry too much about Charles Koch - if history is any guide, if billionaires do nothing other than invest their wealth in the stock market, it’s likely that their wealth will continue to grow.
> 
> Elizabeth’s wealth tax, which only impacts America’s 75,000 wealthiest families, would generate enough revenue to cover universal child care, quality public education, forgive student loan debt, provide free public college, and help finance Medicare for All.



And probably cause a flight of capital. Jeez it's just not worth being a billionaire anymore.

But billionaires needn't worry, I've probably got more chance of being  elected than the race appropriating Fauxcahontas


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> And probably cause a flight of capital. Jeez it's just not worth being a billionaire anymore.
> 
> But billionaires needn't worry, I've probably got more chance of being  elected than the race appropriating Fauxcahontas




They could all go to Russia or Brazil I suppose. 
Elizabeth Warren no chance ? Don't bet on it.
If people look at the rebalancing of tax liabilities between the obscenely rich and the rest of the population there could be some serious thought.
Lets not forget that  Trump signed in a Trillion dollar tax cut  directed to the mega rich only last year. No squeals then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States


----------



## basilio

Stories from the Mad House. It will be interesting to see who the official turns out to be.

I suspect we'll find out when someone unexpectedly falls under a bus or out of a plane.

*Anonymous tell-all book likens Trump to '12-year-old in air traffic control tower' – report*
Book by figure described as administration official says colleagues considered mass resignations to raise alarm, according to Washington Post

The book compares the president to an ‘elderly uncle running pantsless’. Photograph: Brendan Smialowski/AFP via Getty Images
The anonymous author of a widely anticipated book on the Trump White House has described the US president as spiraling from crisis to crisis “like a 12-year-old in an air traffic control tower”, according to scathing extracts published by the Washington Post on Thursday.

The unnamed author, identified only as “a senior official in the Trump administration”, also says that colleagues considered resigning en masse in order to raise alarm about the president’s conduct, but ultimately decided against it, according to the Post.

The extracts obtained by the Post are due to appear in A Warning, a book written by the unnamed person who last year wrote a New York Times column critical of the president. They paint Trump as volatile and incompetent, while also describing how he made racist and misogynistic statements in private.

In the book, the author describes Trump’s approach to the presidency as “like a 12-year-old in an air traffic control tower, pushing the buttons of government indiscriminately, indifferent to the planes skidding across the runway and the flights frantically diverting away from the airport”.

The author also describes how Trump’s impulsive Twitter antics often left senior officials “waking up in the morning ‘in a full-blown panic’”.

“It’s like showing up at the nursing home at daybreak to find your elderly uncle running pantsless across the courtyard and cursing loudly about the cafeteria food, as worried attendants tried to catch him,” the author writes, according to the Post. “You’re stunned, amused, and embarrassed all at the same time. Only your uncle probably wouldn’t do it every single day, his words aren’t broadcast to the public, and he doesn’t have to lead the US government once he puts his pants on.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/07/anonymous-trump-administration-book


----------



## satanoperca

kahuna1 said:


> A new low ...
> 
> Trumps new main advisor ...
> 
> I kid you not .... she speaks in tongues.
> 
> 
> 
> Bennie Hinds ex girlfriend ... you know that screeching pastor on TV ...
> 
> Trumps number one girl. Ivanka is OUT !!





After watching that, I am so undecided in what to do with my life and family :
Join ISIS
Join the USA

Both are f---kd in the head.

God save the USA as they need some divine intervention. They are just as nutters as the rest of the religious world.

Off to find a desert location to call homee, as isolated as it can be in outback Oz, will come back to the society in 10 years when this is all over.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> They could all go to Russia or Brazil I suppose.
> Elizabeth Warren no chance ? Don't bet on it.
> If people look at the rebalancing of tax liabilities between the obscenely rich and the rest of the population there could be some serious thought.
> Lets not forget that  Trump signed in a Trillion dollar tax cut  directed to the mega rich only last year. No squeals then.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States




Warren Buffet would probably be happy, I doubt if the Kochs would be.


----------



## wayneL

Backbone of democracy huh? The God Emporer should be sending Phauxcahontas a bottle of Dom for this gift. Trump will eat her alive in the debates.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Backbone of democracy huh? The God Emporer should be sending Phauxcahontas a bottle of Dom for this gift. Trump will eat her alive in the debates.



Her backbone of support maybe.
Trumps charity only served Trump and he was forced yesterday to give the donations to charity so that's ammunition for her.

A Warren vs Trump debate would be a blood sport. I would pay to get tickets.


----------



## basilio

The impeachment  inquiry into Donald Trumps abuse of office continues to uncover multiple collaborative witness.

*Bolton hints at more Trump-Ukraine meetings – report*
A lawyer for *John Bolton*, former US national security adviser, wrote a letter to lawmakers that there are “many relevant meetings and conversations” related to the administration’s attempts to pressure Ukraine that House impeachment investigators don’t know about, according to the New York Times.

*Mulvaney implicated in released transcripts*
Tom McCarthy

Acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney approved a White House meeting for the Ukrainian president –* if Ukraine announced investigations tied to Joe Biden, a political rival of Donald Trump, according to testimony unveiled on Friday by the congressional committees pursuing an impeachment inquiry.

Key highlights from Hill and Vindman’s transcripts
The House committees released highlights of key passages in the transcripts (which combined are 786 pages long). Here is the top highlight from Fiona Hill, former aide to national security adviser John Bolton:*

“I went back to talk to Ambassador Bolton. And Ambassador Bolton asked me to go over and report this to our NSC counsel, to John Eisenberg. And he told me, and this is a direct quote from Ambassador Bolton: You go and tell Eisenberg that I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up on this, and you go and tell him what you’ve heard and what I’ve said. So I went over to talk to John Eisenberg about this. … I told him exactly, you know, what had transpired and that Ambassador Sondland had basically indicated that there was agreement with the chief of staff that they would have a White House meeting or, you know, a Presidential meeting if the Ukrainians started up these investigations again. And the main thing that I was personally concerned about, as I said to John, was that he did this in front of the Ukrainians.”
*
Find more of Hill’s testimony highlights here.

And here is the top highlight from Lt Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council:

Q: All right. So you did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen. You used the word “demand,” it was not proper to demand. Where in the transcript do you believe that the President made a demand to investigate a U.S. citizen?*

A: So, Congressman, the power disparity between the President of the United States and the President of Ukraine is vast, and, you know, in the President asking for something, it became—there was—in return for a White House meeting, because that’s what this was about. This was about getting a White House meeting. It was a demand for him to fulfill his—fulfill this particular prerequisite in order to get the meeting
*
Find more of Vindman’s testimony highlights here. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...08be4a102e5b5e#block-5dc5c46d8f08be4a102e5b5e


*


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Her backbone of support maybe.
> Trumps charity only served Trump and he was forced yesterday to give the donations to charity so that's ammunition for her.
> 
> A Warren vs Trump debate would be a blood sport. I would pay to get tickets.



She probably just offended the real backbone of democracy, ordinary working people, small business owners, middle of the road mums and dads etc, IOW  the vast majority that makes any democratic society work.

Pandering to the abberant minority at the expense of others, is not a winning strategy.


----------



## basilio

Hi Wayne.

How is your hero, The Savior of Western Civilization, Gods anointed Son on Earth travelling ?
Have you had any cosy fireside chats recently ? Talked about "The (Trump)  Constitution " ?


----------



## basilio

More reality to deny.
I realise and accept that Donald Trump is sociopathitic  narcissist whose only interest is ME, ME,  ME.

What I wonder about is the scores of other Republicans  who continue to defend his behaviour as he wrecks the White House, US interests and any international respect for the US.

*Mick Mulvaney: new testimony draws Trump chief of staff into Ukraine scandal*
Congress hears Mulvaney approved Trump-Zelenskiy meeting on* condition Ukraine announced investigations tied to Joe Biden*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ukraine-scandal-testimony-impeachment-inquiry


----------



## basilio

The consequences of not swallowing Trumps Kool Aid.

*Impeachment inquiry: Fiona Hill tells lawmakers she's received death threats*
Former top Russia expert at White House says harassment reached a peak after she agreed to testify in impeachment hearings
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/08/fiona-hill-testimony-death-threats-impeachment


----------



## basilio

The impeachment inquiry opens. Basically it is the witnesses who previously testified  restating their evidence in public, being questioned and in fact adding critical new  evidence that Donal Trump was directly talking with  his pet Ambassador about the bribery of the Ukraine President.

No one is disputing the facts around this case.  Check it out

* Colbert on Trump's behaviour: ‘Oh my God, did he have sex with Ukraine?’ *
Late-night hosts discussed the first day of public impeachment hearings, stating that it ‘was not a good start for the Republicans’
https://www.theguardian.com/culture...t-trump-impeachment-hearings-late-night-recap


----------



## basilio

Can you believe it ? Donald Trump attacks and smears  in real time a witness while she is testifying at the impeachment hearings !! And when you look at her career, her credentials and integrity of service across 5 presidencies you know this is just not right.

*Anyone heard of intimidation of witnesses as a crime in itself ? 
*
 Print  Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*Donald Trump attacks US diplomat Marie Yovanovitch as she testifies in impeachment probe*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-16/donald-trump-attacks-us-diplomat-marie-yovanovitch/11710896


----------



## basilio

There is a more detailed analysis of the content and impact of Diplomat Marie Yovanovitch  testimony.
She is too good to trash by even the Republicans.  Only Donald Trump has the temerity to publicly try and intimidate her.

* Trump smears and witness drama: key Marie Yovanovitch takeaways *
The former Ukraine ambassador became the third witness to appear publicly – and her testimony was hugely persuasive

Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch became the third witness to testify in public impeachment hearings on Friday investigating whether Donald Trump sought to bribe Ukraine to boost his chance of re-election by investigating a US political rival.

Yovanovitch was recalled by Trump from her post in Ukraine in May, shortly after the state department had asked her to stay on another year.
*

“The question before us is not whether Donald Trump could recall an American ambassador with a stellar reputation for fighting corruption in Ukraine,” said House intelligence committee chairman Adam Schiff, “but why would he want to?”*

Here are key takeaways from a hearing which sought to answer that question:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...keaways-what-happened-marie-yovanovitch-trump


----------



## bellenuit

I only stayed up until the first break, but it was great hearing Fox News and Hannity being called out as one of those doing the smearing of her, as well as The Hill (which I think has been quoted here a few times). I thought the Democrat's questioner getting, just before that break, Yovanovitch to state that the Security Services already had established that the election interference came from Russia, not the Ukraine, and that Putin himself was one of those that pushed the rumour of Ukraine interference, as is typical of the guilty trying to deflect attention, was brilliant as the Republicans opening statement played hard on that conspiracy theory. The more it can be shown that the GOP are using the Moscow line the more exposed they become in the election.


----------



## basilio

Interesting to see how strong the Oath of Allegiance is for Military Officers and Politicians and I would guess senior officials in the Public Service.

A newly elected Democrat demonstrates what that Oath means to her when deciding that Donald Trump needed to be impeached for his  attempts to abuse his power for personal political gain .

*This naval commander turned politician never wanted to impeach Trump. Until now*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...ggered-the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/11700094


----------



## basilio

This will worth seeing live.  Should be the highest rating program on the net,
*President Donald Trump considers testifying to US Congress over Ukraine dealings*
Updated 17 minutes ago





* Photo:* Donald Trump has spoken about the impeachment process. (Reuters: Tom Brenner) 
*Related Story:* Democrats reveal their impeachment strategy, but do Americans really care?
*Related Story:* The three-word slogan Trump hopes will save him from impeachment
*Related Story:* Here's why Democrats don't need you to learn Latin to understand impeachment
United States President Donald Trump says he likes the idea of testifying in relation to impeachment hearings and will "strongly consider it".

*Key points:*

Mr Trump tweeted in response to Ms Pelosi's suggestion he appear before Congress
He is considering a written response, or perhaps appearing in person
The House Intelligence Committee is beginning its second week of hearings


President Trump made the remarks in a series of tweets that took aim at Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi on Monday morning (local time), in which he also said he "did nothing wrong".

Trump tweeted, "She also said I could do it in writing. Even though I did nothing wrong, and don't like giving credibility to this No Due Process Hoax, I like the idea & will, in order to get Congress focused again, strongly consider it!"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-19/trump-considers-testifying-to-congress/11715980


----------



## basilio

How Donald Trump poisons an entire community and recreates reality to stay on top.
 
* Donald Trump and the Central Park Five: the racially charged rise of a demagogue *
*In this Guardian story first published in 2016, and as Ava DuVernay’s new Netflix series on the Central Park Five case, When They See Us, hits screens*, we tell of how, 30 years ago, five young black men were wrongly convicted of rape – and how the charge against them was led by a real estate mogul who would become president 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...k-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> *President Donald Trump considers testifying to US Congress over Ukraine dealings*




I think this will be like his tax returns. He always said he had nothing to hide and would release them if he could, but that they were under audit. But then strenuously uses every legal challenge to stop them being released. It will be the same here. He will talk about his willingness to testify as proof everything was above board, but when push comes to shove, he will discover some legal (and no doubt made up) obstacle preventing him from doing it.


----------



## basilio

*Everyone* of his advisors  explicitly told him to never testify.  They all expressed concern that he would perjure himself. 

The good news is that all these advisors have fled the building.  Donald runs his own ship now and with any luck he'll decide he can say what he likes and that is good enough for everyone. 

This is the Law of Trumpian Infallibility.  Whatever The Boss says is what goes.

It will make for an interesting time in Congress. The Trump version of reality VS everyone else in the frame.


----------



## wayneL

Do you guys ever feel like you're just preaching to the TDS Choir?


----------



## basilio

Todays witnesses in the Trump impeachment hearing

*Alexander Vindman: ‘heroic’ witness who Trump will struggle to dismiss*
Decorated Iraq war veteran is the marquee witness scheduled for Tuesday, with Jennifer Williams, Kurt Volker and Tim Morrison





Lt Col Alexander Vindman, director of European affairs on the national security council, is scheduled to testify on Tuesday. Photograph: Tom Brenner/Reuters
When Lt Col Alexander Vindman first spoke privately to Congress last month, Donald Trump baselessly attacked him as a “Never Trumper” and questioned what business Vindman had listening in on presidential phone calls.

But when Vindman returns to Capitol Hill on Tuesday to testify in public, nationally televised impeachment hearings, Trump might find the decorated Iraq war veteran, who is director of European affairs on the national security council, much more difficult to dismiss.

Vindman is the marquee witness in a blockbuster day for impeachment hearings scheduled for Tuesday. Also testifying will be Jennifer Williams, an aide to Vice-president Mike Pence; Kurt Volker, the former special envoy to Ukraine; and Tim Morrison, a senior national security council (NSC) official.

All four witnesses were previously deposed in closed-door meetings with the House intelligence committee, which is leading the investigation of whether Trump abused the power of his office by soliciting foreign interference from Ukraine in the 2020 US election.




Republicans condemned for smearing impeachment witnesses born abroad
Read more
Trump has denied wrongdoing, but his war on the three career public servants called to testify last week has not been taken up by Republicans in the hearing room and has threatened to backfire, drawing accusations of witness intimidation.

“These last three witnesses are witnesses from heaven, if you’re a prosecutor or the Democrats,” said Patrick Cotter, a former federal prosecutor turned defense attorney. “And they are witnesses from hell if you’re a Republican or Donald Trump. These are literally heroic people who are intelligent, articulate, sincere – you just don’t get witnesses like that.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/19/alexander-vindman-trump-impeachment-hearings


----------



## basilio

Songs for Trump


----------



## basilio

Songs for Trump 2


----------



## Knobby22

bellenuit said:


> I think this will be like his tax returns. He always said he had nothing to hide and would release them if he could, but that they were under audit. But then strenuously uses every legal challenge to stop them being released. It will be the same here. He will talk about his willingness to testify as proof everything was above board, but when push comes to shove, he will discover some legal (and no doubt made up) obstacle preventing him from doing it.




That is true, but the other reason he won't appear is that the tactic of the right now is to say it is boring and you will fall asleep if you watch it. In other words trying to keep their followers ignorant.
You therefore don't want him to answer any questions and provide legitimacy to the proceedings and start the plebs thinking.


----------



## basilio

It's all becoming sticky for The Don.

His $1m dollar donor either tells the truth about what he was doing for Don (squeezing the Ukraine PM) or faces jail time for perjury. (Or he could  _very conveniently_ fall under a bus....)

*Impeachment inquiry: Trump ally must choose between loyalty and saving himself*
Gordon Sondland may try to balance fealty to Trump with the fate that has befallen others in the president’s circle: prison time

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...on-sondland-trump-ally-loyalty-saving-himself


----------



## basilio

* Gordon Sondland: witness White House fears most to testify *
Sondland will face questions on Wednesday over a key phone call with Trump at a restaurant in Ukraine
Donald Trump’s own words will take centre stage at the impeachment inquiry on Wednesday when his ambassador to the European Union faces questions about a phone call with the US president in a Ukrainian restaurant.

Gordon Sondland is the witness who most alarms officials at the White House, according to US media reports, fueling speculation that the ambassador could plead the fifth amendment to protect himself from self-incrimination.

Along with the diplomat Kurt Volker and the energy secretary, Rick Perry, Sondland – a wealthy hotelier who donated $1m to Trump’s inaugural committee – was one of the so-called “three amigos” the Trump administration used to bypass normal state department channels to Ukraine.

He has already changed his closed-door testimony to admit he told an aide to the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, that military aid would not be released until Kyiv announced an investigation into a gas company linked to the son of the former vice-president Joe Biden, a potential challenger to Trump in next year’s election.

But even the revised statement failed to report that Sondland called Trump from a restaurant in Kiev on 26 July and discussed “investigations”. The president was speaking loudly and the call was overheard by David Holmes, a political counselor at the US embassy in Ukraine, according to testimony released this week.

*Holmes told the House of Representatives’ inquiry: “I then heard President Trump ask, quote, ‘So he’s going to do the investigation?’ Ambassador Sondland replied that ‘he’s going to do it’, adding that President Zelenskiy will, quote, ‘do anything you ask him to’.”*

Holmes said he had spoken to Sondland immediately after the call. In his opening statement, Holmes recalled: “Ambassador Sondland agreed that the President did not ‘give a **** about Ukraine’. I asked why not, and Ambassador Sondland stated that the president only cares about ‘big stuff’ ... like the ‘Biden investigation’ that Mr [Rudy] Giuliani was pushing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/19/gordon-sondland-testimony-trump-impeachment-inquiry


----------



## basilio

There will have to be a lot of room under Sondilands bus. He has connected all the main actors in this situation.
The 3 minute video clip says it all.

inquiry 
* Sondland's bombshell testimony blows holes in Trump's Ukraine defence *

Ambassador to EU testifies as House impeachment hearing
Sondland: ‘We followed the president’s orders’


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/20/trump-impeachment-hearings-gordon-sondland-testimony


----------



## moXJO

What a "bombshell"



> Sondland acknowledged he never heard directly from Trump that the security assistance hinged on an announcement of investigations, adding that the conclusion was his “own personal guess”




They have any evidence beyond "personal guesses"?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> What a "bombshell"
> 
> 
> 
> They have any evidence beyond "personal guesses"?







moXJO said:


> What a "bombshell"
> 
> 
> 
> They have any evidence beyond "personal guesses"?




Yeah Moxjo.  Check out just who knew what about the President intentions on what he wanted from the Ukraine PM.  
All neatly laid out by Don's handpicked ambassador.

*Gordon Sondland’s Explosive Impeachment Testimony Implicates Trump: A Closer Look*
**


----------



## Knobby22

It's not fun looking after Trump, so easy to end up in jail.

According to Fox (reading between the lines) it looks like the Republicans will throw Rudy Giuliani off the bus (to save Trump).


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Yeah Moxjo.  Check out just who knew what about the President intentions on what he wanted from the Ukraine PM.
> All neatly laid out by Don's handpicked ambassador.
> 
> *Gordon Sondland’s Explosive Impeachment Testimony Implicates Trump: A Closer Look*
> **




His words involved "guess". I hope they have more than that.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> It's not fun looking after Trump, so easy to end up in jail.
> 
> According to Fox (reading between the lines) it looks like the Republicans will throw Rudy Giuliani off the bus (to save Trump).



I don't think they need to. There isn't enough to pin trump


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I don't think they need to. There isn't enough to pin trump




Interesting... So far 10 diplomats and officials have reiterated  and corroborated the demands made on the  Ukraine PM to announce  investigations into Donald  Trumps political opponents before Congress approved military aid was delivered.
And that isn't enough ? 

Perhaps you need 10 stone tablets inscribed by the Hand of the Lord to verify these witnesses.

Or perhaps that there is absolutely no way you will ever accept evidence of Donald Trumps corruption.


----------



## bellenuit

The interesting thing is Trumps response to Sondland: “I don’t want anything. I want no quid pro quo” (or something to that effect).  The very use of that term in that context strongly looks like he is trying to dissociate himself from the whistleblower allegations that had just come to light. If he had left it at “I don’t want anything” it would have been more believable. But adding the quid pro quo bit looks like he is trying to get something on the record, knowing he has been exposed.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> The interesting thing is Trumps response to Sondland: “I don’t want anything. I want no quid pro quo” (or something to that effect).  The very use of that term in that context strongly looks like he is trying to dissociate himself from the whistleblower allegations that had just come to light. If he had left it at “I don’t want anything” it would have been more believable. But adding the quid pro quo bit looks like he is trying to get something on the record, knowing he has been exposed.




Bleeding obvious isn't it ?


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> I don't think they need to. There isn't enough to pin trump



I won't you in my jury if I commit murder. ;-)


----------



## SirRumpole

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...itten-note-impeachment-defense-i-want-nothing


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Interesting... So far 10 diplomats and officials have reiterated  and corroborated the demands made on the  Ukraine PM to announce  investigations into Donald  Trumps political opponents before Congress approved military aid was delivered.
> And that isn't enough ?
> 
> Perhaps you need 10 stone tablets inscribed by the Hand of the Lord to verify these witnesses.
> 
> Or perhaps that there is absolutely no way you will ever accept evidence of Donald Trumps corruption.



Hearsay isn't  evidence.....
You guys are deluded if you think anything presented so far is hard evidence.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I won't you in my jury if I commit murder. ;-)



If its a couple of guys saying you did it on best "guess",  then you're going to be walking


----------



## wayneL

It also fails the high crimes test for impeachment as set out.

These stupid democrats will have putting the tea bag and milk in, in the wrong order, and on hearsay, as an impeachable offence soon.

I am embarrassed to be the same species as those clowns.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> It also fails the high crimes test for impeachment as set out.
> 
> These stupid democrats will have putting the tea bag and milk in, in the wrong order, and on hearsay, as an impeachable offence soon.
> 
> I am embarrassed to be the same species as those clowns.




Come on, using public money to achieve a private advantage ?

That's corruption through and through.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Come on, using public money to achieve a private advantage ?
> 
> That's corruption through and through.



Are you referring to the purported quid pro quo?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Are you referring to the purported quid pro quo?




Investigation of a political rival in return for aid money ? Nothing wrong  with that ?


----------



## satanoperca

Wayne what is the issue with impeachment?

Why should the Don be troubled if he has done nothing wrong?

If he is telling the truth, he should be encouraging the Dem's, because when they loose, it will be the best political leverage money cannot buy to win the next election.

On the other side of the coin, if he is guilty, he is screwed.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Investigation of a political rival in return for aid money ? Nothing wrong  with that ?



There is nothing in that except the Demo narrative. The actual crime is from the  Bidens. 

That's how this is going to turn out... and the public know it. Trump leading all Dem noms ATM.


----------



## wayneL

satanoperca said:


> Wayne what is the issue with impeachment?
> 
> Why should the Don be troubled if he has done nothing wrong?
> 
> If he is telling the truth, he should be encouraging the Dem's, because when they loose, it will be the best political leverage money cannot buy to win the next election.
> 
> On the other side of the coin, if he is guilty, he is screwed.



That is it, at the end of the day. But based on what's come out so far, they've got nothing.


----------



## wayneL

This is all you need to know gents:


----------



## moXJO

Wayne is right. The bidens look more likely to have partaken in corruption. The Trump "quid pro quo" is plausible but still a long shot with whats presented. This is purely political at this moment and no one in the real world seems to give an F.

I like how you numbnuts get feverish over the possibility of a conviction. While ignoring all the dems absolute bullsht they have attempted and  basically ignoring it.


----------



## SirRumpole

I'm just astounded at how some people swallow Trump's bullsh*t and completely ignore the underlying principle that he used public money or the threat of withdrawing it to achieve a personal political advantage over a rival.

Anyone who thinks that is OK belongs in a South American dictatorship or a communist People's Party.

So let's say an Australian Prime Minister threatened to withdraw funding to a State government unless they investigated the Leader of the Opposition on any crime of the Prime Ministers choosing.

That would be fine would it ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> I'm just astounded at how some people swallow Trump's bullsh*t and completely ignore the underlying principle that he used public money or the threat of withdrawing it to achieve a personal political advantage over a rival.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that is OK belongs in a South American dictatorship or a communist People's Party.
> 
> So let's say an Australian Prime Minister threatened to withdraw funding to a State government unless they investigated the Leader of the Opposition on any crime of the Prime Ministers choosing.
> 
> That would be fine would it ?



You seem to have missed that there is no evidence of that.


----------



## qldfrog

SirRumpole said:


> Come on, using public money to achieve a private advantage ?
> 
> That's corruption through and through.



I thought using public money to show corruption was the basis of a law following governments, a must do, of course except for democrats when the corrupt is on their side
Can the rabid anti Trump crowd not take a step back and look at the whole story? Is it so hard?
What next? Throwing the cops who kill terrorists in jail for murder?


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## kahuna1

wayneL said:


> You seem to have missed that there is no evidence of that.




Only 5 people with first hand knowledge just testified .... even 3 supplied emails !!

Is 5 enough ? The other 5 involved, Pence ... the VP and energy sec ... Guliani .. Mulvaney and so on refused to appear.

Refusing to appear before the inquiry is called obstruction ... so we have appointed flunkies refusing to appear before the elected officials. Members of the House, elected by the people. Sounds like obstruction looks like and smells like it.

Golly ... what planet are we now on ?

Nothing is evidence ... other than the facts as clearly displayed with backing documents, diaries, emails and time lines.


----------



## wayneL

kahuna1 said:


> Only 5 people with first hand knowledge just testified .... even 3 supplied emails !!
> 
> Is 5 enough ? The other 5 involved, Pence ... the VP and energy sec ... Guliani .. Mulvaney and so on refused to appear.
> 
> Refusing to appear before the inquiry is called obstruction ... so we have appointed flunkies refusing to appear before the elected officials. Members of the House, elected by the people. Sounds like obstruction looks like and smells like it.
> 
> Golly ... what planet are we now on ?



The same planet that demands a quality of evidence, rather than heresay than guessing.

Trump is actually begging for a trial so he can further humiliate the Dems.


----------



## kahuna1

USA aid .... military aid ... to an allie who is fighting Russian insurgency was stopped.

Stopped unless an investigation into a political opponent and 2020 candidate was announced. The AID was approved by both houses and held up by Ronald McDonald until that event occurred.

Sondoland the EU ambassador provided direct testimony along with Emails putting Trump, VP Pence and a long list of others under the bus. 

So too did 4 others this week ... say the same.

Imagine if this regime was YOU or OUR Allie ? We were relying upon the USA for ammo to fight someone ? 

Whoops this is our mate ... how reliable is the USA ? 

So Scott  Morrison decides to do the same and demand an investigation of Pauline Hanson by some nation prior to aid being provided ? Sadly the liberal party actually sent Pauline to jail with Abbott leading the process ... what did happen to Tony Abbott ? 

What happened to the leader at that time .... Joan Howard ? At least both lost their seats, Trump ... well he will be building a statue to himself as the greatest American President of all time.

All time !!

He makes Nixon look like a saint.


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> Only 5 people with first hand knowledge just testified .... even 3 supplied emails !!
> 
> Is 5 enough ? The other 5 involved, Pence ... the VP and energy sec ... Guliani .. Mulvaney and so on refused to appear.
> 
> Refusing to appear before the inquiry is called obstruction ... so we have appointed flunkies refusing to appear before the elected officials. Members of the House, elected by the people. Sounds like obstruction looks like and smells like it.
> 
> Golly ... what planet are we now on ?
> 
> Nothing is evidence ... other than the facts as clearly displayed with backing documents, diaries, emails and time lines.



Not on the basis of the evidence presented. 

I'm sure Trump is capable of doing exactly what he was accused of. But I'm not stupid enough to believe this is anything other than a political witch-hunt. 
Where is the scrutiny on the Bidens?  
Seems one side just wants to see Trump swing. Lefty justice always was one eyed though.


----------



## IFocus

Hang on gents you do realise this is a political process not a court room regardless of the terminology being used.

You know a political process like hmmm the one groper Clinton faced who was convicted on lying nothing that he had actually committed just how would Trump stand-up in the same circumstances?

OOOh hang on pr0n star sex is fine right!

The Starr enquiry was the ultimate witch hunt but then you know Hillary would have been worse Ha Ha.

The lunacy around Trump is hard to grasp.


----------



## kahuna1

moXJO said:


> Where is the scrutiny on the Bidens?




Bidens whilst ... trading on their name are an aside.

Cutting off  much needed military aid to a friend who is under attack is number one.

Number two is the fact that the USA goverment asked for investigations by a foreign govt into only 2 of its 325 million citizens .... and diplomats with 30-35 years experience had NEVER heard of such a request ... to a foreign govt.

Never .... please investigate one of our own ...  

Number three ... is the fact that this unheard of request, unheard of by ambassadors with 30 plus years experience was not to investigate a private citizen ... BUT a political rival and his son.

What Biden and his son did, is kind of immaterial in the extreme behind these three points.
So what nepotism occurred. Look at Ivanka and Jarrad in the white house making 100 million last year.

Nepotism for the billionaire and rich corrupt class in the USA is par for the course. People licking their shoes sadly is what most people either mindlessly do watching FOx news ... or if your a politician such as our PM ... you bend over, tolerate being hung up upon ... or waiting for 90 minutes for  meeting as the president stuffs 3 big mac's into his hole whilst getting more orange dye in his hair.

This is reality 2020. 

Bloomberg another entitled twit with no grasp on anything other than white New York has the right to stop and frisk 500,000- African Americans each year is about to spend 200 million trying to buy the USA presidency or ... ensure that Warren or Bernie Sanders does not get in because they would actually charge this 87 year old cretin some tax !!

Bloomberg did buy the New York mayors job, but then again Guiliani was Mayor so one does not need to jump very high to get there.

Nope ... investigate the Bidens and loose the point ... and issue. 

Keep watching Fox news and reading every single Trump tweet ... its all fake ... Crowdstrike a USA company ... Trump now claims is Ukrainian ... and I note some fool on this site quoting Trump and his views. Crowdstrike an internet security company in California ... actually provides security to the Republican party and its servers ... yet in the world of Trump ... and for some here ... its Ukrainian and or doing the total and complete opposite of what it actually does. 

According to Trumps 53 minute call to Fox and friends yesterday.

Trump called for the Bidens to be investigated just like the person here.

Trump claimed he had a great week during the hearings, just like the person here.

Amazing ... chilling .... either way the house will impeach him, unlikely senate will convict him as they are as delusional as Trump himself.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Hang on gents you do realise this is a political process not a court room regardless of the terminology being used.



Until it gets to the Senate.

Read up on the process.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Until it gets to the Senate.
> 
> Read up on the process.



And then it becomes a legal issue and all the senators adjudicate on the facts. As many have a legal background you can be sure a proper decision will be made.

President Trump wants it to go to the Senate so justice can quickly occur. 

[emoji57]


----------



## kahuna1

Knobby22 said:


> senators adjudicate on the facts. As many have a legal background you can be sure a proper decision will be made.
> 
> President Trump wants it to go to the Senate so justice can quickly occur.




Wow ....\
The senate vote will go along party lines. Republicans hold a majority in the Senate. All facts, laws and evidence ... is damming, sadly ... damming ... yet its unlikely to vote to impeach Trump.

*USA is at an end as  a democracy and world leader.*

The facts ... justice and even the right thing, are secondary.

USA is what it is. OVER .... 
Sadly so.

When a president can bribe a hooker to shut up prior to election, hire right wing NAzi people and then have a media system support him, its time for the people, the 99% to vote.

Unlikely much changes sadly in 2020 ... the 99% are not really aware of how bad things are in the USA.

This impeachment vote is actually one about the future of the USA ... as a world leader or a new tin pot ... banana republic. Thump their chests all they want about USA USA ... rah rah rah justice and so on .... how righteous they are  ... *except when it comes to anything of substance.*

Suggesting a proper ... even a correct legal decision will be made in the USA in 2019/20 is astounding if not delusional.


----------



## Knobby22

I was being sarcastic. Describing how it would have worked in Lincoln's time, how it was designed.

Didn't you see the emoji?

We all know how it is going to  go. 

In fact we are entering an historical moment that will be studied in history classes in 100 years time.

The moment when it is shown that the constitution was undeniably broken.


----------



## kahuna1

Knobby22 said:


> I was being sarcastic




Sorry  missed the irony ....



Knobby22 said:


> We all know how it is going to go.




Yep ... sadly so ... miracles unlikely.
Another 4 years of this madness seems sadly likely.

I am not sure, fiscally .... it will end prior to 2024, reason being debt to GDP likely hits 115% by then for the USA.

More tax cuts, likely aimed at the top 1% in the USA certainly will add more to stock values when they pay now 14% tax verses 26% pre Trump ... cutting it to say 8% ... overseas tax paid by the likes of Google now with a permanent tax amnesty for overseas profits at 10.7% flat rate and effective under 5% tax paid .... again ensures any non USA goverment is loosing massive income which is of course going to stock buybacks and CEO packages and flowing to Gates, Buffett Bezos and Bloomberg just to name a few.

We are as you say in historical times. Even if a democrat not a corporate democrat like Biden Or Buttgig or Yang was elected but say Warren or even better Bernie Sanders was to be elected, the sad fact is Trump has destroyed most USA departments from the inside and it will take a decade to even hope to repair them. Having a coal Lobbyist in charge of the EPA in 2019 or a coal barons wife at the UN looking over climate issues ... matched with energy company CEO's running the USA governments oversight and then we get to yet another Goldman Sachs cretin in the form of Treasury secretary and Commerce run by a mortgage  junk king who evicted people for less than $1- in arrears post GFC and was paid by the USA goverment to do it ...

Its .. what it is ... broken.

Impeachment is unlikely in the senate and when 51 of the 100 senators are actually lawyers ... an amazing and disgusting ratio all by itself, to have 51% of one house of Federal Government represented by 51% LAWYERS ... seriously ? 

It will take a miracle to change and with hate being pumped and fear being stoked via Trump its unlikely to change even by 2024 let alone 2020.


----------



## moXJO

Not one of the witnesses could say that Trump authorized any deals. They simply assumed or guessed. Anyone saying otherwise is spreading bs...... again. 

That doesn't mean that Trump didn't push. But there is a bunch of hot air so far.


----------



## kahuna1

moXJO said:


> Trump authorized any deals




No he defied the house and congress ... aid approved ... he BLOCKED it.

That was the deal or blackmail.

Investigate or I will block it.

Are you a cultist ?

Cult of Trump ?



This book may help ...
then again Trump does not read and most followers seem unable to.


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> No he defied the house and congress ... aid approved ... he BLOCKED it.
> 
> That was the deal or blackmail.
> 
> Investigate or I will block it.
> 
> Are you a cultist ?
> 
> Cult of Trump ?
> 
> 
> 
> This book may help ...
> then again Trump does not read and most followers seem unable to.




Most of you anti trumps are deranged on any bs you can find. Same as the 50 other times you all got it wrong. 
"Cult of Trump" how about cult of reality. You guys get a bug up your ass every couple of months about Trump. 

Once again there was no link despite the bs coming out.


----------



## Knobby22

I am 100% for Trump staying in another 4 years. I think if it doesn't happen it will be because of the Republicans replacing him.

The USA public need to understand that they are being played by powerful interests. There is a a reason the average lifespan is much lower than most countries (e.g. 8 years less than Australia). There is a reason they pay way too much for medicine and healthcare. There is a reason their infrastructure is failing and the middle class is disappearing.  There is a reason their schooling has dropped below nearly every western country. Not long ago they were no. 1 country in the world!

To learn the lesson, they need another 4 years of Trump. So go Trump 2020. And to Trumps credit he has more of an idea what to do than the Republican Party who have been completely captured. You never know, with a good win he may be allowed to do a few things.


----------



## kahuna1

moXJO said:


> "Cult of Trump" how about cult of reality.




Tee hee ... have you been to seek help ? 



Your leader !! Hail to the chief !!


----------



## kahuna1

New ad out for 2020 Trump ...

*Voters For Trump Ad*


ITs a must see !! 

MAGA ... 2020 !! and yes that is IRONY.


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> Tee hee ... have you been to seek help ?
> 
> 
> 
> Your leader !! Hail to the chief !!




I'm not talking trump in general. I'm talking about the tds every time theres an attempt to bring him down. You guys ever look at what you type. I could give two shts really. But there needs to be some kind of balance to the reality of the situation.


----------



## kahuna1

Well 5 people said Trump withheld aid ...

NOW there are 6.
Here is the Republican party rebuttal witness who ADMITS ... he found the whole thing inappropriate.

I know ... Lets ignore Sunderland ... the Lt Colonel even the ambassador ... Hill and the other person.

Balance ? 

In even a delusional world there is no question as to the action, the intention and the evidence.

Then again, I am as always astounded by Gaslighting and projections by the mentally disturbed.

Here is the guy ... his testimony ... and why he, the Republican,Trump witness even reported it to the higher powers to HIDE the evidence.

2 minutes in ... asked did he advise the NSC .. National Security Council legal advisor about the conversation ... and he responds YES ... so as to hide the record on a secure server.



None of it matters. rule of law ... democracy ... 

None of it matters in 2020. I am not sure one could get 6 witness's to a crime and testify to that and have any judge not rule guiltily.

Then again this is the USA and USA senate.


----------



## moXJO

Bidens, Clintons, Bushes have been monetizing office for a long time. Real corruption was committed. 

I'm always amused when lefties think Trump brought corruption to the US office. He's the one that exposed it all, unintentional or not. US politics and the way its viewed are forever changed.


----------



## SirRumpole

Michael Bloomberg, a real threat to Trump ?

Let's hope so.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...launches-democratic-presidential-bid/11733650


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Michael Bloomberg, a real threat to Trump ?
> 
> Let's hope so.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...launches-democratic-presidential-bid/11733650



I don't know a hell of a lot about him to be honest, but let's hope he introduces some sanity to the democratic side.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I don't know a hell of a lot about him to be honest, but let's hope he introduces some sanity to the democratic side.




Self made man, experience in public administration, not of the looney left, seems a good alternative to the craziness.


----------



## kahuna1

SirRumpole said:


> Michael Bloomberg, a real threat to Trump ?




 Yes his chances of winning are zero. Maybe he can stop and frisk more colored people > In New York city, when Bloomberg was mayor ,,,,  if you were African American and an adult your chances of having a criminal conviction and most for trivial misdemeanors rose by 25% under Bloomberg. In fact each year 100% of all Negros were stopped and frisked ... about 500,000- each year.

Delusional non tax paying American Billionaires and this is the 6th to enter the race !! I am being generous including Trump as one !!

I note Obama ... who now has amassed 85 million via speaking to investment banks post 2016 and his choice another later entry held a rally and only 3 people turned up. At least Bloomberg can pay people to turn up !!

Trump 2020 ... and by 2024 ... well the changes we have seen post 2016 will look tame. Fox news will be the only approved news on all channels and one will not be able to turn it off.


----------



## wayneL

@kahuna1 if nothing else, at least your histrionics are amusing


----------



## kahuna1

wayneL said:


> if nothing else, at least your histrionics are amusing




Hold your breath .... I will get back to you.


----------



## basilio

Judge Decides the* Son of God* is not *Above the Law.
*
There will be some interesting observations coming from this testimony.
Mind you there will nothing that could be called evidence. After all these guys were just top presidential advisors.. They had no idea what was going on did they ?

*Ex-White House counsel Don McGahn must testify in impeachment inquiry, judge rules
Trump administration had argued McGahn had ‘absolute immunity’ as a top presidential adviser
*
A federal judge has landed a damaging blow on Donald Trump in the US president’s ongoing fight with Congress, ruling that the former White House counsel Donald McGahn must testify in the impeachment hearings despite claims that he had “absolute immunity” as a top presidential adviser.

.....In terms that left no room for ambiguity, the judge scathingly remarked that the White House had got its separation-of-powers thinking in relation to the respective standing of the president, Congress and judiciary “exactly backwards”.

*Pointedly, the judge added: “It is a core tenet of this nation’s founding that the powers of a monarch must be split between the branches of the government to prevent tyranny.”*

*It was the role of the judiciary to interpret the law and of Congress to conduct investigations of suspected abuses of power by the government, she wrote in the 120-page opinion. The Department of Justice’s claim “to unreviewable absolute testimonal immunity on separation-of-powers grounds … is baseless, and as such, cannot be sustained.”
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/25/don-mcgahn-testify-impeachment-inquiry
*
*


----------



## basilio

The Son of God is being challenged by the Rule of Law.

The crux point of today's judicial ruling regarding  Donald Trumps capacity to offer absolute immunity to staff regarding testifying to Congress.

*“Presidents are not kings.” *
_
That’s how U.S. District Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson dismantled the Trump administration’s argument that the president had the power to compel “ absolute immunity” to block former senior White House aides from having to testify before Congress. 

The White House’s legal argument has “startling and untenable implications” and is incompatible with “our constitutional scheme,” Jackson wrote. 
_
*“Stated simply, the primary takeaway from the past 250 years of recorded American history is that Presidents are not kings. This means that they do not have subjects, bound by loyalty or blood, whose destiny they are entitled to control. Rather, in this land of liberty, it is indisputable that current and former employees of the White House work for the People of the United States, and that they take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Moreover, as citizens of the United States, current and former senior-level presidential aides have constitutional rights, including the right to free speech, and they retain these rights even after they have transitioned back into private life.” *
_
Read the full ruling here. 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...chment-democrats-2020-election-latest-updates_


----------



## kahuna1

Hahhaha ..

the really big news was GYM Jordan is being sued for knowing about sexual molestation charges. He is or WAS the talking head for the Republicans.

The next worst one, Devin Nunes again a republican ... its now been revealed HE went to Vienna and met with the Ukrainians and was neck deep in the Trump effort to get dirt on the Bidens.

This monster, Nunes spent $57,000- of taxpayers money on that trip with three aides and instead of preaching as he did, he should have been the one being questioned.

A house investigation is under way and it does not look good as his travel records and expenses are public record.

Last but not least ... worst for Trump ... Giuliani his lawyer and an associate of Trump himself one of the two Ukrainians arrested when trying to leave the country has spilled the beans.

This is key ... HE not only told a story of Trump conversations ... *HE TAPED THEM !!
*
This is going to be fascinating hearing Trump himself and that turkey ex NY Mayor come lawyer of his on tape .... with their bloody head in the cookie jar.

Deny all they like ...

I am awaiting the tapes being made public and both those two elected officials held to account. GYM JORDAN is a disgrace ...

This revelation of actual taped conversations between Trump ... Ukrainian thugs and his lawyer acting for Trump is about as damming as it gets.

This said, I still dont expect the Senate to vote to impeach.
I believe some are even video with sound of meetings ... which is going to be hilarious.

Trump can deny all he likes, sadly He sent a republican lackey to meet in Vienna and that seems clear.
These make the Nixon tapes when eventually produced look tame.

Whilst I doubt for the true delusional believers they will deny anything and everything. Whilst not all of the USA is this stupid seems to escape Trump who today claimed 95% support among the  Republicans and even with video I suspect most will not sway.

It is however in the end down to the USA people and their vote.
I note another billionaire is trying to buy the presidency already spending in a single month more than any other person running.

Pity it actually takes more than white only people to get elected.

So so so amusing this latest twist. A person who had child molestation reported to him was one questioner .... the other neck deep in arranging the dirty tricks and now .... its all blown up in their face thanks to a Ukrainian Gangster who taped and video recorded their meetings.

I am sure not a lot will make it to the corporate media until they release the actual details and videos of the President or Ex President of the USA arranging a smear job.

MAGA 2020 ... tee hee.

Maybe Bloomberg who is really right wing and was a Republican for decades should run as the Republican nominee ?


----------



## kahuna1

*RECORDINGS of Trump & Giuliani Delivered to Congress*



*House Intelligence Committee has video and audio recordings from Giuliani associate Lev Parnas*

https://www.salon.com/2019/11/25/ho...ecordings-from-giuliani-associate-lev-parnas/


----------



## basilio

Further evidence of Donald Trumps interference with  the funds allocated by Congress for military aid.

*Two White House budget officials resigned over Ukraine aid freeze, witness says – live*
Office took steps to withhold funds from Ukraine on same day as Trump’s call with president, according to testimony

 09:27 
*House committees have released remaining transcripts from closed-door depositions*

Congress released transcripts of testimony from *Mark Sandy*, an official in the White House Office of Management and Budget, and *Philip Reeker*, a state department official.

*Sandy said that the OMB began the process of withholding funds on July 25 — the same day as Donald Trump’s now infamous phone call with the Ukranian president. He also testified that he wasn’t initially given a reason for withholding the funds, and was reassigned after he raised concerns that a freeze would violate the Impoundment Control Act. *

*Reeker*, who has worked at the state department since 1992 and testified despite pressure from the White House not to do so, said there was “understanding” among officials that Rudy Giuliani was feeding Trump negative information about Ukraine. He also said that top state department officials, under the guidance of Secretary of State *Mike Pompeo *blocked an effort to release a statement of support for former ambassador *Marie Yovanovitch*.

With these latest releases, the House Intelligence Committee has made the last of the remaining closed-door testimonies public. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...crats-don-mcgahn-2020-election-latest-updates


----------



## basilio

The next shoe to drop is when Trump decides to unfreeze the aid to the Ukraine - after he hears about the whistle blower complaint.

*Report: Trump knew about the whisteblower complaint when he unfroze aid to Ukraine*
Donald Trump was briefed about the whistleblower complaint about the president’s dealings with Ukraine before he unfroze aid to the country, the New York Times reports:

_Lawyers from the White House counsel’s office told Mr. Trump in late August about the complaint, explaining that they were trying to determine whether they were legally required to give it to Congress, the people said._

_The revelation could shed light on Mr. Trump’s thinking at two critical points under scrutiny by impeachment investigators: his decision in early September to release $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine and his denial to a key ambassador around the same time that there was a “quid pro quo” with Kyiv. Mr. Trump used the phrase before it had entered the public lexicon in the Ukraine affair._

_Mr. Trump faced bipartisan pressure from Congress when he released the aid. But the new timing detail shows that he was also aware at the time that the whistle-blower had accused him of wrongdoing in withholding the aid and in his broader campaign to pressure Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, to conduct investigations that could benefit Mr. Trump’s re-election chances._


----------



## basilio

Why  should Congress impeach Donald Trump even though the Republicans in the Senate will (almost certainly) back him ?

There are a number of excellent reasons outlined in the analysis below.  

Perhaps the most significant point is that Donald Trump cannot be pardoned in the future if Congress impeachs him. 

* Trump won't lose his job – but the impeachment inquiry is still essential *
Robert Reich
The process is required by the constitution, seems to be shifting voters’ opinions, and will render the president unpardonable
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/30/trump-impeachment-inquiry-removal


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Why  should Congress impeach Donald Trump even though the Republicans in the Senate will (almost certainly) back him ?
> 
> There are a number of excellent reasons outlined in the analysis below.
> 
> Perhaps the most significant point is that Donald Trump cannot be pardoned in the future if Congress impeachs him.
> 
> * Trump won't lose his job – but the impeachment inquiry is still essential *
> Robert Reich
> The process is required by the constitution, seems to be shifting voters’ opinions, and will render the president unpardonable
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/30/trump-impeachment-inquiry-removal




Trump won't be impeached, due to the iron laws of arithmetic.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Trump won't be impeached, due to the iron laws of arithmetic.




Maybe,  maybe not.

What if the Senate held a secret vote on  Donald Trumps impeachment ? 
Consider this analysis from an advisor to many Republican politicians.

* There’s a Surprisingly Plausible Path to Removing Trump From Office *
It would take just three Republican senators to turn the impeachment vote into a secret ballot. It’s not hard to imagine what would happen then.

By JULEANNA GLOVER

November 12, 2019

_Juleanna Glover has worked as an adviser for several Republican politicians, including George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft and Rudy Giuliani, and advised the presidential campaigns of John McCain and Jeb Bush.
_
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/12/path-to-removing-donald-trump-from-office-229911


----------



## wayneL

There is no impeachable high crime.

There is high farce however, and political suicide. The deranged and ludicrous Senate is manna from Heaven for Trump 2020.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> There is no impeachable high crime.
> 
> There is high farce however, and political suicide. The deranged and ludicrous Senate is manna from Heaven for Trump 2020.


----------



## bellenuit

Not sure what credence to give to this, but it would explain a lot.


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 98835



Yeah that worked well when the republicans tried to impeach Clinton, hey?

He got a second term, didn't he?

The thing is the impeachment process has to be credible, this impeachment process is an absolute farce and everybody knows it. Except of course those with extreme Trump derangement syndrome.

The further and further the democrats take this impeachment process, the worse and worse the democrats look. The logical result is that the entire democratic congress is in the process of ipso facto, impeaching itself, such will be the result at the next election.

Landslide to the Pubs.

Well done Dumbocrats.


----------



## basilio

A recap of the evidence of Donald Trumps efforts at misusing his office.

* The inside story of Trump's alleged bribery of Ukraine *
Public testimony in the impeachment hearings has painted a vivid picture of a president fixated on one thing: his own political gain over the fortunes of an ally

by Lauren Gambino in Washington and Tom McCarthy in New York

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/30/trump-ukraine-alleged-bribery-impeachment-inquiry


----------



## basilio

Why bother with the facts when you can just make up anything you want?
*Not just the facts: Republicans' top six impeachment falsehoods *
Despite damning evidence from dramatic hearings, the GOP seems determined to reject the evidence of its eyes and ears

The morning after public impeachment hearings came to an apparent close, the biggest names in conservative punditry were happy to call the ballgame.

At the Wall Street Journal, Peggy Noonan declared that the case against Donald Trump had “been so clearly made you wonder what exactly the Senate will be left doing”.

“On the substance,” wrote Rich Lowry over at the National Review, “Democrats have won.”

But the color of the sky was different on Capitol Hill, where elected Republicans insisted Democrats had produced no evidence of wrongdoing and Trump had been summarily vindicated.

“I’ve just focused on the facts and it is clear as every day that goes by [sic] that Democrats’ case for impeachment is crumbling,” the New York representative Elise Stefanik, who participated in the hearings, told Fox News on Thursday night.

How can inhabitants of the same ideological ecosystem disagree so sharply? It appears that getting into the bunker with Trump, as the politicians have, requires embracing falsehoods too plain or painful for the pundits to bear.

Here is a list of major falsehoods in the air – or in the recycled air of the bunker, at least:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/23/trump-impeachment-republicans-falsehoods


----------



## wayneL

Facts


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> Except of course those with extreme Trump derangement syndrome.




There you go, I thought "Trump derangement syndrome" referred to people who thought Trump was a decent, honourable person with a brain.


----------



## basilio

Macquack said:


> There you go, I thought "Trump derangement syndrome" referred to people who thought Trump was a decent, honourable person with a brain.




And those of course who faithfully believe every word the _ Anointed One_ says and will follow him to the ends of the Earth, over hill and dale and off the cliff.

I can totally understand _"The Son of God"_ just making up whatever story he wants and demanding that his followers _Repeat and Believe,_ and _Believe and Repeat_.  That is his pass to Fame, Fortune and The White House.

I can partially understand the  many Republicans who have decided that being in power is worth whatever price the Boss demands. Their oath to the Constitution can just go hang.

But the scary part in my mind  is watching so many seemingly rational people who don't have a direct interest in the game refusing to use their eyes and brains and just echoing his talking points. Talk about the Cult of the Personality !


----------



## basilio

Another random  "Gods Truth pearl "

The Son of Man said during an interview that "He doesn't know Prince Andrew "
Milliseconds later Twitter punches up a number of pictures with Donald and Andrew together.


----------



## dutchie

Schiff and the Democrats : "The impeachment evidence of Trumps' misconduct is overwhelming"

What the MSM should ask: And what is the evidence?

Schiff and the Democrats : The evidence is that we have used the word "overwhelming".


----------



## moXJO

Just because you think the dems impeachment sham is all bs does not mean you automatically like Trump.
Another lefty brain derangement.....
Any smear is a good smear I suppose.

Dems ran a bs impeachment trial with their own rules and came up with fck all. Schiff even bullshtted the narrative at the start.

Honestly you guys are mentally ill.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Honestly you guys are mentally ill.





Compared to Trump ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Compared to Trump ?



Egomaniac perhaps. 
However the left owns crazy.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Egomaniac perhaps.




Plus narcissism , paranoia and psychopathy.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Plus narcissism , paranoia and psychopathy.



Paranoia- literally every media organization has been out to get him with bs stories.

Psychopath- has actively been avoiding military action. Even warns countries before he bombs to get civilians out.

Narcissist- who isn't these days. 

Go back through the last few presidents and tell me which one wasn't a mass murdering scumbag.

And Obama was one of the worst.

Trump is literally a small time crook standing in the shadow of crime lords.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Paranoia- literally every media organization has been out to get him with bs stories.
> 
> Psychopath- has actively been avoiding military action. Even warns countries before he bombs to get civilians out.
> 
> Narcissist- who isn't these days.
> 
> Go back through the last few presidents and tell me which one wasn't a mass murdering scumbag.
> 
> And Obama was one of the worst.
> 
> Trump is literally a small time crook standing in the shadow of crime lords.




You don't have to kill people to be a psychopath. It's all about control over other people. He does it and he enjoys it and therefore I think the description is apt.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> You don't have to kill people to be a psychopath. It's all about control over other people. He does it and he enjoys it and therefore I think the description is apt.



He's a lot of things but psychopath isn't one of them. Having capable people around you is a business mind trait. And lets face it,  public service isn't full of capable people.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> He's a lot of things but psychopath isn't one of them. Having capable people around you is a business mind trait. And lets face it,  public service isn't full of capable people.




Jim Mattis was one of the most highly regarded "public servants" in the US.

If Trump should have listened to anyone, he should have listened to Mattis, but Trump's ego was too big to have another peacock on his patch.


----------



## SirRumpole

More evidence of Trump's mental illness, forgetting people you have met many times.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-04/donald-trump-says-he-does-not-know-prince-andrew/11764228


----------



## Knobby22

China deal not going ahead till after the election?
Fighting now with France? New tariffs for Europe.
Chile and Argentina hit with tariffs.

There are consequences for disrupting world trade.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Jim Mattis was one of the most highly regarded "public servants" in the US.
> 
> If Trump should have listened to anyone, he should have listened to Mattis, but Trump's ego was too big to have another peacock on his patch.



Ego.....
Mad dog  Mattis was pretty pro Australia. Mainly because he wanted to use us as a pivot point for US troops in the Pacific. Trump wanted tariffs.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> China deal not going ahead till after the election?
> Fighting now with France? New tariffs for Europe.
> Chile and Argentina hit with tariffs.
> 
> There are consequences for disrupting world trade.




Any tariffs for the poms?
Maybe a nod deal was struck against the EU.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Any tariffs for the poms?
> Maybe a nod deal was struck against the EU.




I think the Poms will be sitting in a very good position post Brexit the way the world is going.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Trump is literally a small time crook standing in the shadow of crime lords.




On the scale of crooked billionaires Trumps a failure by all measures, still he got elected breaking all the rules will be interesting if he stays out of jail post his term.

There is no way a China deal wont be done before the election, none even if the yanks have to pay for one.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> On the scale of crooked billionaires Trumps a failure by all measures, still he got elected breaking all the rules will be interesting if he stays out of jail post his term.
> 
> There is no way a China deal wont be done before the election, none even if the yanks have to pay for one.



Hong Kong demonstration was a massive US win. 

If Hillary can "bleach bit" her hard drives then smash them up with hammers- I reckon Trump will stay out of prison on the myriad of Chinese whispers he is subjected to.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> There is no way a China deal wont be done before the election, none even if the yanks have to pay for one.



I'm confused IFocus. All these double negatives, does that mean there is no way a deal will be done or no way a deal won't be done?


----------



## basilio

Second stage of impeachment. Deciding what particular charges will be laid.
This analysis outlines what will be examined and why it is critical for impeachment to go ahead.

* Democrats' Trump impeachment report: five key takeaways *
House intelligence committee sets stage for articles of impeachment amid ‘overwhelming’ evidence of misconduct

Tom McCarthy in New York
 
 Email 
Wed 4 Dec 2019 09.13 AEDT   Last modified on Wed 4 Dec 2019 10.24 AEDT

Shares
59

The House intelligence committee released a major report Tuesday in the impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump. The report contends that Trump “abused the power of his office for personal and political gain, at the expense of [US] national security”. Here are five key findings:

*1) ‘The evidence of the president’s misconduct is overwhelming’*
In reply to Trump and the Republicans’ insistence that the investigation has gathered no evidence of wrongdoing, the 300-page report brandishes 100 hours of testimony from 17 witnesses and 30 hours of public hearings. The report also presents never-before-seen call records showing that Rudy Giuliani was in direct contact with the White House and the Office of Management and Budget after military aid to Ukraine was suspended.

“The evidence of the president’s misconduct is overwhelming, and so too is the evidence of his obstruction of Congress. Indeed, it would be hard to imagine a stronger or more complete case of obstruction than that demonstrated by the president since the inquiry began,” the report says.

*2) The report lays the groundwork for articles of impeachment*
The report is split into two main sections, one on “the president’s misconduct” and the other “the president’s obstruction of the House of Representatives’ impeachment inquiry”. The sections seem easily adaptable to two articles of impeachment against Trump, one for abuse of power and one for obstruction of justice. There could be further articles.

“The president engaged in this course of conduct for the benefit of his own presidential reelection, to harm the election prospects of a political rival, and to influence our nation’s upcoming presidential election to his advantage,” the report says. “In doing so, the president placed his own personal and political interests above the national interests of the United States, sought to undermine the integrity of the US presidential election process, and endangered US national security.”

*3) The report bakes in rebuttals of Republican arguments*
Cooked into the report are multiple rebuttals to arguments Republicans have made against the impeachment process. Republicans have said that Trump has had no mechanism for defending himself; that impeachment would amount to overturning the 2016 election; that Democrats have long pursued impeachment per se; and that impeachment requires a criminal act.

As it summons evidence of Trump’s misconduct, the report responds to those arguments, pointing out that witnesses requested by Republicans testified in public hearings and expressing the consensus of scholars that no statutory crime is necessary for impeachment (though Democrats have alleged campaign finance and other violations).

As for the question of “overturning the election”, the report says: “The president and his allies are making a comprehensive attack on the very idea of fact and truth. How can a democracy survive without acceptance of a common set of experiences?”

*4) It implicates others around Trump*
The report blasts Trump administration officials who bowed to the White House demand that no one speak with the committees in a “sweeping effort to stonewall the House of Representatives”.

The months-long Ukraine scheme, the report says, was “driven by” Trump. But “senior US officials, including the vice-president, the secretary of state, the acting chief of staff, the secretary of energy, and others were either knowledgeable of or active participants in an effort to extract from a foreign nation the personal political benefits sought by the president”.

*5) Unanswered questions – and two warnings*
With the inclusion of recently obtained phone records and other material, the report reveals that behind-the-scenes work on the case continues.

“There remain unanswered questions, and our investigation must continue, even as we transmit our report to the judiciary committee,” the report says.

Then it delivers distinct warnings about what Trump might do next if he is not impeached – and what future presidents might do if Trump is not challenged on his obstruction of Congress.

“*Given the proximate threat of further presidential attempts to solicit foreign interference in our next election, we cannot wait to make a referral until our efforts to obtain additional testimony and documents wind their way through the courts,” the report says.

“The damage to our system of checks and balances, and to the balance of power within our three branches of government, will be long-lasting and potentially irrevocable if the president’s ability to stonewall Congress goes unchecked. Any future president will feel empowered to resist an investigation into their own wrongdoing, malfeasance, or corruption, and the result will be a nation at far greater risk of all three.”*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-trump-impeachment-report-five-key-takeaways


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> I'm confused IFocus. All these double negatives, does that mean there is no way a deal will be done or no way a deal won't be done?




Sorry Knobby year 10 English (intermediate level, talked to much needs to apply himself harder I think my report said fact is I was a poor student )

I think a deal will absolutely be done for the elections sake alone and be touted as the greatest / best deal ever done by the brilliant, the greatest mind / strategist ever to be president of the US all said without blushing by Trump.

At least this is what the Chinese know.

If this is true then Trump will happy throw the US under a bus  and sign anything, however if he is a patriot then maybe not........I think Trump will make a deal no matter what and his admin will know this IMHO.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Hong Kong demonstration was a massive US win.
> 
> If Hillary can "bleach bit" her hard drives then smash them up with hammers- I reckon Trump will stay out of prison on the myriad of Chinese whispers he is subjected to.




"Hilary would have been worse" wont make much of a foot note in history but I think her facing a hostile FBI in the middle of an election probably will.

Reality is if the Republicans and their backers (think bottomless pit of money and lack of morals) could have hung Hilary she would have been locked up by now.

Fact is the Trump administration has replicated the foibles of Clinton emails on steroids and some plus if you watch Planet America (recommended) they have covered it all quite well.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Fact is the Trump administration has replicated the foibles of Clinton emails on steroids and some plus if you watch Planet America (recommended) they have covered it all quite well.



Oh I doubt it.


----------



## dutchie

Irrespective of how the current impeachment sham plays out I think it will be important that impeachment processes are instigated on any new President (either Democrat or Republican),  preferably before inauguration.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> More evidence of Trump's mental illness,



 )
with apologies to Rumpy.. 
*Y O U  J U S T  C A N'T  C R E D I T   T H I S  G U Y*.

*Trump says people 'flush the toilet 10 times' and seeks solution*
The president announced he had issued an order to review water-saving regulations for bathroom facilities
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-flush-the-toilet-10-times-and-seeks-solution


----------



## explod

In all of this there are no clear facts against Trump that would stand the test of a proper judicial hearing.

And as for Planet America I immediately switch channels away. Just fancy land crap in my view.


----------



## sptrawler

Apparently some are now blaming him for letting Saudi Arabian military people in, for training.
Guess you can't win.


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> In all of this there are no clear facts against Trump that would stand the test of a proper judicial hearing.
> 
> And as for Planet America I immediately switch channels away. Just fancy land crap in my view.



I agree, it is a bit like this and some other similar threads. Lol
I'm in Narita at the moment watching CNN, because it's the only channel I can understand.
Well watching the news reports Trump hasn't anything to worry about, the Lady that is leading the anti Trump charge, looks like she is having a meltdown IMO.
What a comedy.


----------



## basilio

Summarizing the impeachment proceedings in 5 minutes

These are the facts and the evidence behind Trumps impeachment


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Summarizing the impeachment proceedings in 5 minutes
> 
> These are the facts and the evidence behind Trumps impeachment




Did your alternative "facts" include the Ukrainian president saying their was no pressure from trump? 

All they have is Chinese whispers....


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Did your alternative "facts" include the Ukrainian president saying their was no pressure from trump?
> 
> All they have is Chinese whispers....





That's gold Mo.


----------



## dutchie

The Democrats are sick. They will be slaughtered next year.
They have no where to go.
The only course they have is to keep trying to impeach the President. What a sham, talk about flogging a dead horse.
You would think that after 3-4  years of failure, they would maybe think about a different tactic.


----------



## wayneL

...waiting for the breathless reporting of The Don's impeachment in the House from @basilio.... and the sound of crickets when the Senate tells the House to go **** itself.

...and the screams of luvvie anguish next November


----------



## sptrawler

The Chinese will be hoping Trump gets sacked, then they can get back to business as usual, paying the company execs to keep offshoring manufacturing to China.
Meanwhile the muppets will dance around in glee, while dreaming up the next way to blow their own feet off.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> and the sound of crickets when the Senate tells the House to go **** itself.




True, it won't be done as per the Constitution. It will just be the Republicans displaying the middle finger. 

A truly historic moment.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> True, it won't be done as per the Constitution. It will just be the Republicans displaying the middle finger.
> 
> A truly historic moment.



Mate if you think it has been done anywhere near as per the constitution thus far, you should give yourself an uppercut to wake yourself up.

It will be different rules in the Senate and this will be shown to be so.... The democrats have just committed political suicide


----------



## PZ99

sptrawler said:


> The Chinese will be hoping Trump gets sacked, then they can get back to business as usual, paying the company execs to keep offshoring manufacturing to China.
> Meanwhile the muppets will dance around in glee, while dreaming up the next way to blow their own feet off.



He won't get sacked. So it's a wasted effort less than a year away from the election.


----------



## sptrawler

PZ99 said:


> He won't get sacked. So it's a wasted effort less than a year away from the election.



So what are they doing it for? will it give them leverage in the election?


----------



## PZ99

sptrawler said:


> So what are they doing it for? will it give them leverage in the election?



Not in my view - probably the opposite.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> It will be different rules in the Senate and this will be shown to be so.... The democrats have just committed political suicide




Couldn't imagine the Republicans playing politics in the Senate, and I am certain if the roles were reversed there would be no impeachment of a Democrat.....crickets ....Starr investigation of White Water ........


----------



## basilio

_The Martyrdom of the Son of God is at hand.  Truly he is being Scourged by the Ungodly in ways that have overshadowed  the  Witches of Salem and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ._

It has got* that* bad . Not a single politician has attempted to refute the charges against Donald Trump. Each and every one has gone one step further in trying to paint a picture of a unbelievable mischief against the anointed King of all Kings - without actually talking about what has been alleged.

*Donald Trump's impeachment proceedings compared to trial that led to the crucifixion of Jesus*
A Republican politician has compared the impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, declaring Christianity's messiah was given a fairer trial than the US President.

...On Tuesday, Mr Trump wrote in a six-page letter to Ms Pelosi that "more due process was afforded to those accused in the Salem Witch Trials".

The Salem Witch Trials of individuals accused of witchcraft took place in Massachusetts in the 1600s. About 20 people were executed, mostly via hangings, according to historians.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...-compared-jesus-trial-pontius-pilate/11814344


----------



## wayneL

Dems still playing Ducks and Drakes, not releasing the articles to the Senate.

Anyway, point of the year goes to the wag that said "Trump impeached for Joe Biden's crimes"


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> nyway, point of the year goes to the wag that said "Trump impeached for Joe Biden's crimes"




Indeed ! We should start a new competition for the the most outrageous Trumpism of the Year award. 

Unfortunately the Son  of God would refuse to allow anyone else to out Trump him when it comes to the most outrageous  lies in history.  

We could then pass all these  stories around and see who believes them..


----------



## moXJO

Generally with impeachment the voters  start to get on board and turn. I'm unsure, but one poll I saw went the other way against the dems. I think with the fbi investigation shining a light on what went on with the "pee dossier", dems have used up their credibility.

Seems like a suicide mission for the dems right now. But a lot changes in a week let alone a year.


----------



## basilio

Be interesting to see how this editorial from the leading magazine for the Evangelical Christian movement influences public opinion.

* Trump Should Be Removed from Office *
It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was.

.... the facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral.

The reason many are not shocked about this is that this president has dumbed down the idea of morality in his administration. He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals. He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.

Trump’s evangelical supporters have pointed to his Supreme Court nominees, his defense of religious liberty, and his stewardship of the economy, among other things, as achievements that justify their support of the president. We believe the impeachment hearings have made it absolutely clear, in a way the Mueller investigation did not, that President Trump has abused his authority for personal gain and betrayed his constitutional oath. The impeachment hearings have illuminated the president’s moral deficiencies for all to see. This damages the institution of the presidency, damages the reputation of our country, and damages both the spirit and the future of our people. None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html


----------



## kahuna1

Trump lies .... hit a new milepost ...

15,000 - 

First year 2,500 then 5,000 and now a rise of 50% more at 7,500.
My favorite was I did not call him Tim Apple ... when speaking about Tim Cook of Apple. Only 27 cameras were recording.

MAGA ...


----------



## explod

Biden was put in charge of Ukraine by President Obama and was caught on tape bragging about doing exactly what the impeachment is accusing Trump of doing.

The whole system of government is corrupt and out of whack in the US as we are now heading.  Defence and governments are controlled and driven by the very wealthy and I wonder why so many of you on these type of threads are sucked in by all such bull...t


----------



## bellenuit

explod said:


> Biden was put in charge of Ukraine by President Obama and was caught on tape bragging about doing exactly what the impeachment is accusing Trump of doing.
> 
> The whole system of government is corrupt and out of whack in the US as we are now heading.  Defence and governments are controlled and driven by the very wealthy and I wonder why so many of you on these type of threads are sucked in by all such bull...t




Trump accused him of corruption. What Biden did was attempt to get the removal of a corrupt Ukrainian politician, a move supported by many other countries at the time and by many Republican politicians in the US.


----------



## explod

bellenuit said:


> Trump accused him of corruption. What Biden did was attempt to get the removal of a corrupt Ukrainian politician, a move supported by many other countries at the time and by many Republican politicians in the US.



It was about getting control in Ukraine to try and stop Russia from being able to pipe their oil and gas through to Europe.

Nearly all the wars and interferences by the US has been about retaining a monopoly on oil, gas and arms production. ISiS use bullets made by the US as one small example. Trump does not follow this course and is why they are doing everything to remove him. Trump gets around with the handshake like a good car salesman but the underlying US monopolies do no like it.

But don't get me wrong on Trump, he's a spoilt monopolising dick...d but won't play the game.  Remember J Edgar Hoover who developed the FBI and controlled eight Presidents.  A complete understanding of history makes for interesting study.


----------



## basilio

It would be interesting to have these these witnesses in the Senate Trial.
But hey,  the truth  might actually come out wouldn't it ?

*Ukraine aid blocked soon after Trump’s phone call with Zelenskiy, emails show*
Trump acted about 90 minutes after the ‘do us a favor’ phone call behind the scenes to freeze aid from the Pentagon
As Republicans and Democrats continue to squabble on the terms of Trump’s impeachment trial in the Senate, newly-released government emails show that it took only about 90 minutes after Donald Trump’s infamous July telephone call to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy for White House officials to order the Pentagon to freeze military funding for Ukraine.

The correspondence, published by the Center for Public Integrity, appears to show that Trump appointees acted quickly after the call, behind the scenes, to block Ukrainian aid from the Pentagon.

The emails appear to confirm that the aid was held up soon after Trump pressured Zelenskiy on the call to “do us a favor, though”. That request prompted an American whistleblower who heard details about the call to complain, which in September triggered the entire impeachment inquiry.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/22/trump-ukraine-emails-aid-held-soon-after-phone-call


----------



## dutchie

explod said:


> Biden was put in charge of Ukraine by President Obama and was caught on tape bragging about doing exactly what the impeachment is accusing Trump of doing.
> 
> The whole system of government is corrupt and out of whack in the US as we are now heading.  Defence and governments are controlled and driven by the very wealthy and I wonder why so many of you on these type of threads are sucked in by all such bull...t




30 Years *$200,000 = $6 million

She must have some fantastic investment advise.








Political corruption (all over the world) is *very* lucrative!


----------



## wayneL

This is the POTUS the leftist brats are trying to impeach.

Interesting reading.

Thread:


----------



## Knobby22

I dare you to let us know what Trump has cut.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> I dare you to let us know what Trump has cut.



Black unemployment, poverty, economic uncertainty for starters.

Nobody's claiming Trump to be the perfect president, knobby, but in face of the rabid Trump derangement syndrome we see here and elsewhere I thought it was quite interesting.

Now if you want to dwell in the extreme derrangement that has been programmed into your brain by the leftist media, that's your choice.


----------



## basilio

Wayne, Donald Trump is being impeached because he used his Presidential office to try an force another country to make up an investigation on a political opponent. .

He is also being impeached for obstructing at every step of the way the investigation into that behaviour. Whatever excuse you can come up with about :"What he has achieved as a President " has no bearing on these activities. 
_________________________________________________________________________
In any case if one was to look at the entirety of his Presidency IMO opinion it ranks as one of the most corrupt, destructive set of "achievements" in US history. The destruction of the EPA.  The destruction of  public education. The rollback of US international action on climate change.  (Clearly one of his great achievements in the eyes of climate change deniers ...) The use of the Presidential office to enrich his businesses and his family fortunes.
The incessant, unrelenting Bullxhit that has debased political conversation. The lies after lies after lies after lies until only the most dogged people can count them.  And of course the most biased just excuse them all.
A foreign policy agenda that supports right wing dictators across the globe from the Phillipines to Brazil to Hungary, Poland, Russia.  Yep, lets look at the whole picture of this deranged sociopath who has no boundaries.


----------



## basilio

And by the way Wayne. Why do believe that string of achievements strung out by  Robby Starbuck ? And who actually proposed them ? And what happened around them ? For example I am absolutely certain that the Trump administration has cut into National Parks. Where does that figure ?

The alternative realities trotted out by the deranged Trumpites is just a another lying smokescreen to divert attention from why he is being impeached and what he has to explain.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Wayne, Donald Trump is being impeached because he used his Presidential office to try an force another country to make up an investigation on a political opponent. .
> 
> He is also being impeached for obstructing at every step of the way the investigation into that behaviour. Whatever excuse you can come up with about :"What he has achieved as a President " has no bearing on these activities.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> In any case if one was to look at the entirety of his Presidency IMO opinion it ranks as one of the most corrupt, destructive set of "achievements" in US history. The destruction of the EPA.  The destruction of  public education. The rollback of US international action on climate change.  (Clearly one of his great achievements in the eyes of climate change deniers ...) The use of the Presidential office to enrich his businesses and his family fortunes.
> The incessant, unrelenting Bullxhit that has debased political conversation. The lies after lies after lies after lies until only the most dogged people can count them.  And of course the most biased just excuse them all.
> A foreign policy agenda that supports right wing dictators across the globe from the Phillipines to Brazil to Hungary, Poland, Russia.  Yep, lets look at the whole picture of this deranged sociopath who has no boundaries.





Okay, let them try him in the Senate under proper rules of evidence then. Let's see how that goes.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Okay, let them try him in the Senate under proper rules of evidence then. Let's see how that goes.



 What ? You  mean like having statements from all staff involved in this fiasco ?  Putting them under oath to relate what directions they were given ? 
Lets go..


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Wayne, Donald Trump is being impeached because he used his Presidential office to try an force another country to make up an investigation on a political opponent. .
> 
> He is also being impeached for obstructing at every step of the way the investigation into that behaviour. Whatever excuse you can come up with about :"What he has achieved as a President " has no bearing on these activities.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> In any case if one was to look at the entirety of his Presidency IMO opinion it ranks as one of the most corrupt, destructive set of "achievements" in US history. The destruction of the EPA.  The destruction of  public education. The rollback of US international action on climate change.  (Clearly one of his great achievements in the eyes of climate change deniers ...) The use of the Presidential office to enrich his businesses and his family fortunes.
> The incessant, unrelenting Bullxhit that has debased political conversation. The lies after lies after lies after lies until only the most dogged people can count them.  And of course the most biased just excuse them all.
> A foreign policy agenda that supports right wing dictators across the globe from the Phillipines to Brazil to Hungary, Poland, Russia.  Yep, lets look at the whole picture of this deranged sociopath who has no boundaries.




And yet more than 50% of Americans will disagree with you in 2020
But then again they must be deplorables.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Black unemployment, poverty, economic uncertainty for starters.
> 
> Nobody's claiming Trump to be the perfect president, knobby, but in face of the rabid Trump derangement syndrome we see here and elsewhere I thought it was quite interesting.
> 
> Now if you want to dwell in the extreme derrangement that has been programmed into your brain by the leftist media, that's your choice.




Mental health care for one.


----------



## basilio

And if we want a fair trial in the Senate how about

1)  Senators casting votes in a secret ballot.
2)  Hearing the sworn evidence of the security staff, diplomats and admin staff who followed the attempts to force the Ukrainian PM into to announcing a trumped up  investigation into Joe Bidens son.

Fair enough ?


----------



## kahuna1

Ukraine is a USA Allie,
Ukraine is the only state post 1945 to be invaded.
Denying approved military aid alone is impeachable.

Donald trump has had 238 golf days costing over 130 million USD at his golf resorts for 235 out of the 238 days. 

I note with amusement billionaire delusional non tax paying cretin Bloomberg go busted for having prisoners make phone calls on his behalf as he has no public support.

Bloomberg much like Trump favors no change to the elite paying no tax.
USA spending 3 times what anyone else does for healthcare.
He also supports no change to the minimum wage 

In a single months Bloomberg now has spent USD 120 million which is more than all of his other Democratic 2020 contenders and this includes the enormous sum spent by Starbucks idiot billionaire Steyer ... who has spent 85 million on his campaign and about 60 of that on advertising.

Whilst NOT anti billionaire when they pay tax, in the USA some pay none. Amazon paid NO tax last year and in fact got a 129 million refund despite NPAT of 11 billion. Gates who ... well ... hid under a supposed charity ... paid over the last 30 years an effective tax rate of 11.6% on his income about 33% of the headline rate.

If say Andrew Forrest of Australia or Gina did not pay the close to 30% corporate tax rate each year they went very close.

In the USA payroll tax for old age pensions, medicare, disability and so on at around 15%  STOPS at $120k ,,,, and they pay a discounted amount from that level.

Absurd ... insulting and well ... killing many Americans without any form of healthcare.

Corporate wise after Trump tax cuts 79 of the S+P 500 companies which were massively profitable paid ZERO TAX .... ones such as Amazon, Chevron and Netflix ... of the 379  others recently studied they paid an effective rate of 11.2% on USA generated profits. As to overseas tax paid .... well that ... is even more a joke .... try 1% for EU nations .... we get 2% tax paid ...

I say eat the RICH American billionaires with a nice Chianti  and Fava beans ... as Hannibal Lector would do. Not our ones ... they pay bloody tax at at least double the rate.

With around 700 USA billionaires its disgusting that we now have had 4 of this elite out of touch group running for the job. Of the Democratic contenders Biden is backed by 44 others and bankrolled and then Butteigig the idiot Wine cave mayor of some tiny town is backed by 39 others and Yang ... well Yang has some of the Tech big boys backing him and advising and bankrolling his nomination.

World or the USA at least has gone totally mad.


----------



## IFocus

The Senate has already said Trump wont be impeached...........is that a court process?

In fact its a bigger sham than that the Republicans have been negotiating with the white house how the show is going to run.

US politics is predicated on who raises the most funds wins so the politics is pretty shoddy how ever US government institutions are not that's why the Republican are all out trying to destroy them under Trumps watch.

Didnt notice on that wonderful list the unfunded tax cuts adding trillions to the debt burden.

Interestingly a few US conservative commentators are start to worry about the Americans (middle and lower class) missing out on the booming economy genuine concern there could be public unrest.


----------



## sptrawler

Big business spends a lot of money on media advertising, if someone is damaging their business model, one would assume pressure would be brought to bear. Weird people are so easily manipulated IMO.
As with the British election, I guess it will be left up to the people to decide, yet again.
The public unrest and disenchantment will show by the vote, who it is focused on, I guess.
On the recent O/S holidays I have been on, if I get the opportunity to ask a yank about politics, they have all said they don't really like Trump but the U.S is doing well under his leadership.
I guess it's a bit like our last election, someone overseas reading our papers would have thought Labour were a shoe in, I did. It shows how wrong the press can be.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> And if we want a fair trial in the Senate how about
> 
> 1)  Senators casting votes in a secret ballot.
> 2)  Hearing the sworn evidence of the security staff, diplomats and admin staff who followed the attempts to force the Ukrainian PM into to announcing a trumped up  investigation into Joe Bidens son.
> 
> Fair enough ?



If he was cleared using your criteria, you still wouldn't be happy, that is the problem with fanaticism.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Mental health care for one.



This thread shows that is sadly lacking IMO.
It will be great when Trump's next term is over, hopefully then everyone can de stress.


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> This thread shows that is sadly lacking IMO.
> It will be great when Trump's next term is over, hopefully then everyone can de stress.



The riposte of the year comes right at the very end. ROTFL!


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> If he was cleared using your criteria, you still wouldn't be happy, *that is the problem with fanaticism*.




Why would you use that term?

The Republicans in the house never at any time try to rebuff the evidence as presented.....never.

The Republicans along with the white house have obstruct many of the witnesses and evidence as possible.

There is no doubt Trump and his administration has acted outside his authority and got caught.

The question is not his actions but do they deserve impeachment this is nothing to do with popularity or polling.

When you let an executive act outside of the rules without restrain then bad things happen........always


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Why would you use that term?




The post was making reference to Bas's passion with regard trump, as reflected in his posts, no matter which measure you judge Trump by, I doubt Bas would ever have a positive outlook of him. 
On a personal level I think Trump is a very unlikeable person, but I guess it doesn't bother him and the courts will judge him or the electorate.


----------



## dutchie




----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> If he was cleared using your criteria, you still wouldn't be happy, that is the problem with fanaticism.




In a Court of Law Donald Trump would be convicted within a week on the evidence around the charges made against him. 

In a Senate  52/100 Republician  Senators appear determined to acquit him regardless of what is said just because he is their Republican President and they are in thrall to him.  That's politics in the US in 2020. Nothing to do with criminal behavior or evidence.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> In a Court of Law Donald Trump would be convicted within a week on the evidence around the charges made against him.
> 
> In a Senate  52/100 Republician  Senators appear determined to acquit him regardless of what is said just because he is their Republican President and they are in thrall to him.  That's politics in the US in 2020. Nothing to do with criminal behavior or evidence.



You have to relax Bas, you will only make yourself unwell. What is the old saying, give me the strengh to change what I can and the serenity to accept what I cant.
Its a new year and hopefully Australia can turn the corner and become great again, well that isnt correct, Australia is always great we just have to keep it that way for future generations.
Way too much negative sentiment at the moment.
We are doing a great job, moving over to renewables, mining is on the up, all we have to do is source some tertiary industry and change our education system back to what it was 30 years ago.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> In a Court of Law Donald Trump would be convicted within a week on the evidence around the charges made against him.
> 
> .



LMAO

Says our resident ersatz legal expert.

However, Biden, having made a confession on TV for the self same crime, would (should) be in a spot of bother.


----------



## basilio

SP I disagree with you about never having a positive attitude towards Donald Trump. My feelings about him are  with regard to his policies, his  personal behaviour and  his  political corruptness.  If these were to change I would be delighted to have a positive view of him . The road to Damascus is always open.

About relaxing.  Fair point.  There* is* no point in getting over-agitated about the Don. Far better to take a more positive approach about dealing with the issue.  I was really impressed with Greta Thunbergs response to Trumps attempts to trash her nomination for Person of the Year in Time magazine plus the other insults he  continually made.

She thought they were just hilarious Very disarming and effective on both a personal level and in the public eye.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> LMAO
> 
> Says our resident ersatz legal expert.
> 
> However, Biden, having made a confession on TV for the self same crime, would (should) be in a spot of bother.




No he didn't. Where did you get that idea?


----------



## explod

An interesting angle to reality here.  Don't get me wrong, I don't like Trump but everything against him is trumped up.  They want him out as he is not following the rules of keeping the US as world ruler.

And as a former prosecuted myself I can say that there is no evidence against Trump that would make the points of proof required for any conviction.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/we-were-warned-about-deep-state-refused-listen


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> In a Court of Law Donald Trump would be convicted within a week on the evidence around the charges made against him.




What evidence?


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> What evidence?



Really?


----------



## explod

Knobby22 said:


> Really?



Ok, run it past us.


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> No he didn't. Where did you get that idea?



Mate, Biden's quid pro quo confession is all over the damned Internet!

Come.
On!


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> Really?



Yes, really!


----------



## wayneL

The TDS is strong in these ones


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> Yes, really!



Well look it up or read the thread.
Already posted.
Argue your case.
It just gets boring.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> The TDS is strong in these ones



Onya Yoda.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Well look it up or read the thread.
> Already posted.
> Argue your case.
> It just gets boring.



It's a weak weak case.


----------



## moXJO

The case against the fbi in the IG report was telling. I remember a lot here backing that shtbag James Comey to the hilt. 
"Oh the fbi are clean" I so often heard.
Turns out they made some grave judgments of error under the master of spin.

At what point do you guys wonder if it's fake news against Trump?
I have seen complete lack of reasonable judgement when it comes to accusations against Trump. You would literally back stories that Trump killed the dinosaurs out of some weird obsession. 

All I do is point out reality most of the time and I get labeled a Trump supporter. 
Seriously worrying stuff.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Mate, Biden's quid pro quo confession is all over the damned Internet!
> 
> Come.
> On!




So you would have no trouble finding it then, but failed to do so. I have been following this issue closely since it began and have never found what you are claiming. Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?

And you said he confessed to a crime. So why hasn't any action being taken, considering the AG is a puppet of Trump and being able to legally incriminate Biden through the US court system does not entail using unconstitutional activities such as seeking the aid of a foreign government to incriminate your political opponent and would also not raise suspicions of doing Putin's work or involve dealing with shady people like Giuliani and his corrupt associates?


----------



## explod

Spot on moJXo.  The FBI have been devious for over 60 years and set up to be that way. Why people are goaded by everyday press and community rubbish I find hard to understand. But of course with modern TV and computer amusements few think at all anymore.

The FBI was a gradual creation of J Edgar Hoover from about 1922 as a young librarian he began collecting bits and pieces of gossip and wrongdoing's of people over him then in the upper class to a point where they would follow the party line rather than be exposed.  He became the leader of the forming FBI.  In later years he totally controlled eight Presidents and after his death this has followed on.  Trump is not and will not bend to this established control so the FBI have been doing everything in it's power to stop him. Except they do not have enough factual stuff so have been trying to create it.

I have mentioned this many times.  If you are going to be able to enter these sort of discussions, do some groundwork and reading.  And one of the most outstanding is the biography by Curt Gentry, "J Edgar Hoover, the man and the secrets" 2001

I was lucky, mine's a hardback, I purchased off the Mornington Library (for $1) about 10 years ago when apparently a word went out to get rid of them. So it's hard to find now which is also interesting.

Of course this is just the beginning of this. Again I've mentioned this too. The US began interfering in the Ukraine Government just before that plane crash (Russia said to be the culprits) their purpose to put a halt to Russia being able to export oil and gas to Europe. Same as Saddam Hussain and his non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was trucking oil to Russia.

As for Hillary Clinton she was up to her eyeballs under the previous President on the Ukraine interference.

Trump seems to realise that Russia, China and a number of others can no longer be kicked around. Unfortunately the Democrats do not realise or do not want to move away from the old control method. And of course that makes sense, the money to support the US$ is the oil, gas and munitions. ISIS for example use USA weaponry.

So please do some proper research and have a think. Because Trump is right wing and my desire is the Marxist system equal for all.


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> So you would have no trouble finding it then, but failed to do so. I have been following this issue closely since it began and have never found what you are claiming. Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?
> 
> And you said he confessed to a crime. So why hasn't any action being taken, considering the AG is a puppet of Trump and being able to legally incriminate Biden through the US court system does not entail using unconstitutional activities such as seeking the aid of a foreign government to incriminate your political opponent and would also not raise suspicions of doing Putin's work or involve dealing with shady people like Giuliani and his corrupt associates?



FFS I have to do all the work around here!



and


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> Well look it up or read the thread.
> Already posted.
> Argue your case.
> It just gets boring.



No factual evidence has been posted. Repeating the same old bull**** does not make it a fact. (ask Schiff and Nadler - they could not even make up their minds what to charge him with because there was no evidence!) 
A man is innocent until proven guilty. It is up the accuser to prove the guilt.
The only fact so far is the Trump beat Hillary, and is the President.


----------



## kahuna1

Talk about altered reality ...
\5 Law professors of who 4 ... found undeniable cause for impeachment ...

In fact 7 witness's who testified ... ONE ... Sondaland .. who admitted it was QUID PRO ... and they all were in on it ... Trump  VP Pence ... Pompeo ... two others.

And I read this thread, a person admitting guilt ... in fact 7 ... and still a debate ? Aid was with held from a nation who was invaded by Russia unless an investigation was launched into the leading 2020 Democratic contender.

Its pretty simple ... or so I thought along with 4 very senior professors and even the 5th on the second count or obstruction waved the white flag that this had occurred.

Of course in the corrupt USA law and justice and rule of law matters for nil.
It matters for Nil till it does matter.

I know that I have zero idea of the future other than 2020 will be nuttier than 2019 and 2018 added together. 

The Stock market and CEO;'s and billionaires have already voted and Warren has no change in 2020 according to them, Sanders even less .... 

Strange but with Sanders hitting 5 million individual donations and 1 million people as volunteers I sadly think they are underestimating that everyone has one single power in the USA. The power to vote. That 120 million people have medical debts, 25% of people delay buying medication and 7 million MORE lost any form of health cover in 2019, I suspect he has some chance.

I could run through most of the USA reported economics and do the same.

Two weeks ago China actually banned all USA software by 2024 after doing the same for all USA made computers and chips .... and the market ? It rallied.


----------



## wayneL

kahuna1 said:


> Talk about altered reality ...
> \5 Law professors of who 4 ... found undeniable cause for impeachment ...
> 
> In fact 7 witness's who testified ... ONE ... Sondaland .. who admitted it was QUID PRO ... and they all were in on it ... Trump  VP Pence ... Pompeo ... two others.
> 
> And I read this thread, a person admitting guilt ... in fact 7 ... and still a debate ? Aid was with held from a nation who was invaded by Russia unless an investigation was launched into the leading 2020 Democratic contender.
> 
> Its pretty simple ... or so I thought along with 4 very senior professors and even the 5th on the second count or obstruction waved the white flag that this had occurred.
> 
> Of course in the corrupt USA law and justice and rule of law matters for nil.
> It matters for Nil till it does matter.
> 
> I know that I have zero idea of the future other than 2020 will be nuttier than 2019 and 2018 added together.
> 
> The Stock market and CEO;'s and billionaires have already voted and Warren has no change in 2020 according to them, Sanders even less ....
> 
> Strange but with Sanders hitting 5 million individual donations and 1 million people as volunteers I sadly think they are underestimating that everyone has one single power in the USA. The power to vote. That 120 million people have medical debts, 25% of people delay buying medication and 7 million MORE lost any form of health cover in 2019, I suspect he has some chance.
> 
> I could run through most of the USA reported economics and do the same.
> 
> Two weeks ago China actually banned all USA software by 2024 after doing the same for all USA made computers and chips .... and the market ? It rallied.



Let them bring it on then. Why are they stalling?


----------



## kahuna1

Since the fossil ... GOP head of the senate declared he will be taking all instructions from the White House and intends NOT to be an impartial Judge ...

To delay ... is to annoy ... and that is about the value of this process other than Trump was impeached.
He will not be ejected ... but impeached for good cause.

Trump can pretend ... he wasn't but *Nixon was a saint compared to him*.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> FFS I have to do all the work around here!
> 
> 
> 
> and





Well, there we have it then and I was correct. 

_Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?_

As Goldman said in that video, Biden was acting in pursuant of official government policy. The action he took was supported by congress, including many from the GOP, and was also supported by other government leaders. There is nothing wrong with withholding foreign aid or assistance to another country if that country does not comply with what you want it to do. In fact that is what you would expect your government to do. That is also why Biden did not in anyway try to hide what was being done and not one GOP member at the time raised any concern. Why should they, they supported the move. They were trying to rid Ukraine of a corrupt official, who was preventing Ukraine cleaning up its act.

What Trump did was unconstitutional. He took action in direct contravention of a congressional decision (to give aid to Ukraine) purely for personal political gain. He and his inner circle were so sure that this was not right that they took every effort to hide what had been done and are doing everything within their power to prevent evidence related to the issue being revealed. The quid quo pro was against the national interest and aided a prime enemy of the US, Russia. The sole intent was to smear Biden and even though they now try to retrofit the reason as being to clean up corruption, they have enlisted those very same corrupt people to help their cause.

You should really read up with what Trump has been impeached for, before you start making claims that Biden has done the same thing. Demanding Quid Pro Quo per se is not a crime or even a wrongdoing of any sort. It is the reason that the Quid Pro Quo is being used that makes the use of it right or wrong and the fact that you cannot discern the difference is a poor reflection on you.

And just a final point. Biden did not confess to a crime as you claim.


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> Talk about altered reality ...
> \5 Law professors of who 4 ... found undeniable cause for impeachment ...
> 
> In fact 7 witness's who testified ... ONE ... Sondaland .. who admitted it was QUID PRO ... and they all were in on it ... Trump  VP Pence ... Pompeo ... two others.
> 
> And I read this thread, a person admitting guilt ... in fact 7 ... and still a debate ? Aid was with held from a nation who was invaded by Russia unless an investigation was launched into the leading 2020 Democratic contender.
> 
> Its pretty simple ... or so I thought along with 4 very senior professors and even the 5th on the second count or obstruction waved the white flag that this had occurred.
> 
> Of course in the corrupt USA law and justice and rule of law matters for nil.
> It matters for Nil till it does matter.
> 
> I know that I have zero idea of the future other than 2020 will be nuttier than 2019 and 2018 added together.
> 
> The Stock market and CEO;'s and billionaires have already voted and Warren has no change in 2020 according to them, Sanders even less ....
> 
> Strange but with Sanders hitting 5 million individual donations and 1 million people as volunteers I sadly think they are underestimating that everyone has one single power in the USA. The power to vote. That 120 million people have medical debts, 25% of people delay buying medication and 7 million MORE lost any form of health cover in 2019, I suspect he has some chance.
> 
> I could run through most of the USA reported economics and do the same.
> 
> Two weeks ago China actually banned all USA software by 2024 after doing the same for all USA made computers and chips .... and the market ? It rallied.



3 hand picked by democrat law professors found him impeachable the 4th Republican picked one said no. If it was 3 hand picked  by Republican then the number would be reversed. 
That's how it actually went down in democrats sham trial.

Abraham Lincoln under the current dems would be impeached.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> *Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?*




Nice succinct  summary. 

But so what ?  In which current  reality does the Trump thrall recognize such an obvious difference  between using  economic and political leverage to advance clear government policies vs a President using his dodgy mate to force another country to create make believe charges against his political opponent ?

It will be interesting to see how the Supreme Court Justice John Roberts handles any Senate trial. I suspect (would hope) he would want to preside over a trial that did observe legal processes.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Well, there we have it then and I was correct.
> 
> _Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?_
> 
> As Goldman said in that video, Biden was acting in pursuant of official government policy. The action he took was supported by congress, including many from the GOP, and was also supported by other government leaders. There is nothing wrong with withholding foreign aid or assistance to another country if that country does not comply with what you want it to do. In fact that is what you would expect your government to do. That is also why Biden did not in anyway try to hide what was being done and not one GOP member at the time raised any concern. Why should they, they supported the move. They were trying to rid Ukraine of a corrupt official, who was preventing Ukraine cleaning up its act.
> 
> What Trump did was unconstitutional. He took action in direct contravention of a congressional decision (to give aid to Ukraine) purely for personal political gain. He and his inner circle were so sure that this was not right that they took every effort to hide what had been done and are doing everything within their power to prevent evidence related to the issue being revealed. The quid quo pro was against the national interest and aided a prime enemy of the US, Russia. The sole intent was to smear Biden and even though they now try to retrofit the reason as being to clean up corruption, they have enlisted those very same corrupt people to help their cause.
> 
> You should really read up with what Trump has been impeached for, before you start making claims that Biden has done the same thing. Demanding Quid Pro Quo per se is not a crime or even a wrongdoing of any sort. It is the reason that the Quid Pro Quo is being used that makes the use of it right or wrong and the fact that you cannot discern the difference is a poor reflection on you.
> 
> And just a final point. Biden did not confess to a crime as you claim.



Quid with no pro is not a crime. The case against Trump is very very thin. 
Good luck with it, but I'd say I'll be rubbing it in people's noses in 6 months time when dems web of bs comes undone again.


----------



## moXJO

*Ukraine Wants to Probe the Company That Paid Hunter Biden. But It's 'Too Sensitive'*

*https://time.com/5733799/ukraine-fears-burisma-probe-trump-hunter-biden-fallout/*




*Hunter Biden is a reminder: Democrats are morally corrupt, too*

One of the peculiar stupidities of the American political mind is its resolute refusal to hold two separate ideas at once. Our dominant political narrative is like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book for morons, offering only a conservative red storyline or a liberal blue storyline, with nothing in between or outside those primary color bounds. Politicians themselves, out of self-interest, adhere to this narrative, which makes the political press adhere to the narrative, and before you know it you have an entire country that thinks about the ethical complexities of political economy with all the nuance of a Florida Gators fan hollering about why the Georgia Bulldogs are bad.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp...unter-biden-democrats-joe-biden-ukraine-trump

This article sums up this thread to a degree


----------



## kahuna1

Even this is clouded ....

USA policy was and is to aid Ukraine .... this BS about corruption or rooting it out was the total opposite of reality and what occurred. The corrupt prosecutor Biden refused to deal with was ejected years ago .. 

All of this ... facts ... lost in a snowstorm of total BS and lack of reality.
Both Houses of USA govt voted to provide military aid to Ukraine ... 

Delaying of obstructing and the n denying your blocking it ... then releasing it when caught ... is the crux of the issue. Then refusing to co-operate as it was investigated ... ordering White house stff to refuse the elected officials.

What a mess... USA will never be the same . In the eyes of the rest of the world the actions of the last 2 years have been astounding, tearing up deals and then claiming victory when a new identical deal is done ?

Cutting the tax rate for corp orates in the USA in HALF and 91 paid no tax of the top 500 and 391 others paid it at 11% .... the 91 who paid NO tax earnt 120 billion in profits and amazingly received close to 3 billion in tax refunds!!

Its a strange place ... Amazon 11 billion profits .... NOT A CENT paid in tax ... and 129 million tax refund.

We have a three billionaires ... running to be president and there are only 600 of them out of 325 million other people in the USA.


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Well, there we have it then and I was correct.
> 
> _Perhaps it is the difference between understanding what is a legitimate action by Biden and an illegitimate action by the president. Do you know the difference?_
> 
> As Goldman said in that video, Biden was acting in pursuant of official government policy. The action he took was supported by congress, including many from the GOP, and was also supported by other government leaders. There is nothing wrong with withholding foreign aid or assistance to another country if that country does not comply with what you want it to do. In fact that is what you would expect your government to do. That is also why Biden did not in anyway try to hide what was being done and not one GOP member at the time raised any concern. Why should they, they supported the move. They were trying to rid Ukraine of a corrupt official, who was preventing Ukraine cleaning up its act.
> 
> What Trump did was unconstitutional. He took action in direct contravention of a congressional decision (to give aid to Ukraine) purely for personal political gain. He and his inner circle were so sure that this was not right that they took every effort to hide what had been done and are doing everything within their power to prevent evidence related to the issue being revealed. The quid quo pro was against the national interest and aided a prime enemy of the US, Russia. The sole intent was to smear Biden and even though they now try to retrofit the reason as being to clean up corruption, they have enlisted those very same corrupt people to help their cause.
> 
> You should really read up with what Trump has been impeached for, before you start making claims that Biden has done the same thing. Demanding Quid Pro Quo per se is not a crime or even a wrongdoing of any sort. It is the reason that the Quid Pro Quo is being used that makes the use of it right or wrong and the fact that you cannot discern the difference is a poor reflection on you.
> 
> And just a final point. Biden did not confess to a crime as you claim.



Okay like I said before, bring it on then...and we'll see whose reflection is reflecting poorly


----------



## moXJO

Here's a story on what went down way back in 2017. Pretty much lead to all the b.s. we see today.

*Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire*

Kiev officials are scrambling to make amends with the president-elect after quietly working to boost Clinton.
*https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446*





> Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.
> During Nalyvaichenko’s trip to Washington last month, he detected lingering ill will toward Ukraine from some, and lack of interest from others, he recalled. “Ukraine is not on the top of the list, not even the middle,” he said.
> 
> Poroshenko’s allies are scrambling to figure out how to build a relationship with Trump, who is known for harboring and prosecuting grudges for years.




Dems kicked the grubby little ball rolling. Trump delaying aid could have been for a few reasons a few that were verifiable were:

Pettiness  over the election stunt by Ukraine. Trump is a petty ahole, that's a proven.


Wanting Europe to stump up some money as it's in their backyard and their interest.

Not wanting to waste the money on corrupt officials that started all the Russian b.s. in the first place.


----------



## explod

moXJO said:


> Here's a story on what went down way back in 2017. Pretty much lead to all the b.s. we see today.
> 
> *Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire*
> 
> Kiev officials are scrambling to make amends with the president-elect after quietly working to boost Clinton.
> *https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446*
> 
> Dems kicked the grubby little ball rolling. Trump delaying aid could have been for a few reasons a few that were verifiable were:
> 
> Pettiness  over the election stunt by Ukraine. Trump is a petty ahole, that's a proven.
> 
> 
> Wanting Europe to stump up some money as it's in their backyard and their interest.
> 
> Not wanting to waste the money on corrupt officials that started all the Russian b.s. in the first place.




Yep, spot on, no one bothered to take in my post at all yesterday. Most only want to believe in what they like, not the real facts.

It's a thread that you all need to move on from. The whole thing is political b...shite fighting.​


----------



## kahuna1

Iran ... yet again ...

Iraq ... already in turmoil ,,, so lets kill a miita leader from Iraq who was instrumental in stopping ISIS.

*Last year, Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul Mahdi issued an order aimed at strengthening government control over militia units, which have gained new military and political clout since 2014 because of their instrumental role in battling the Islamic State.
*
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iranian Major-General Qassem Soleimani, head of the elite Quds Force, and Iraqi militia commander Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis were killed early on Friday in an air strike on their convoy at Baghdad airport, an Iraqi militia spokesman told Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-s-air-strike-militia-spokesman-idUSKBN1Z11K8

*Nothing like a war to distract everyone.*


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> Iran ... yet again ...
> 
> Iraq ... already in turmoil ,,, so lets kill a miita leader from Iraq who was instrumental in stopping ISIS.
> 
> *Last year, Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul Mahdi issued an order aimed at strengthening government control over militia units, which have gained new military and political clout since 2014 because of their instrumental role in battling the Islamic State.
> *
> BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iranian Major-General Qassem Soleimani, head of the elite Quds Force, and Iraqi militia commander Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis were killed early on Friday in an air strike on their convoy at Baghdad airport, an Iraqi militia spokesman told Reuters.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-s-air-strike-militia-spokesman-idUSKBN1Z11K8
> 
> *Nothing like a war to distract everyone.*



Odds on Trump not getting into the war. So far he has avoided conflict when others wanted him to bomb the sht out of people. He just "sanctions" up

Iranian govt deserves to be wiped from the planet though.


----------



## Knobby22

I think it will depend on how the election is going.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I think it will depend on how the election is going.



I think times have changed. Trump resists conventional warfare. Sanctions and public uprisings are his go to.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump is breaking new grounds with his threats to obliterate Iranian cultural treasures if there is any retaliation for the assassination  of General Qassem Soleimani and Iraqi militia commander Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis.

It is a war crime to target these treasures. Check out what Don Trump is holding as hostage in case there is blowback to his assassination regime.

*Here's what could be lost if Trump bombs Iran's cultural treasures *
*
















*
*






*

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...-iranian-cultural-treasures-targeted-by-trump

* 
 Iran 
 Donald Trump’s belligerent threats to Iran’s cultural sites are grotesque 
Simon Jenkins
The war crimes proposed by the US president would only strengthen his enemy’s clerical regime 
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...reat-iran-cultural-sites-grotesque-war-crimes
*


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Donald Trump is breaking new grounds with his threats to obliterate Iranian cultural treasures if there is any retaliation for the assassination  of General Qassem Soleimani and Iraqi militia commander Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis.
> 
> It is a war crime to target these treasures. Check out what Don Trump is holding as hostage in case there is blowback to his assassination regime.
> 
> *Here's what could be lost if Trump bombs Iran's cultural treasures *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...-iranian-cultural-treasures-targeted-by-trump
> 
> * *
> * Iran *
> * Donald Trump’s belligerent threats to Iran’s cultural sites are grotesque *
> * Simon Jenkins*
> *The war crimes proposed by the US president would only strengthen his enemy’s clerical regime *
> *https://www.theguardian.com/comment...reat-iran-cultural-sites-grotesque-war-crimes*



Your language makes it sound like you support the Iranian regime and all that comes with that, along with their state sponsored terrorist activities, Komrade Basilovski?


----------



## basilio

How the US starts wars.

*Trump’s Deja Vu Wartime Playbook*
By Dr. Jack Rasmus
Global Research, January 06, 2020
Region: USA
Theme: History, US NATO War Agenda
 





_History repeats itself, as they say. But in the age of American empire, not just twice. Or even three times. But with disturbing regularity._

_The past half century shows two things about how America goes to war:_

*First, it creates a provocation based on a lie. Second, it then makes its target adversary an ‘offer they can only refuse’, as the final justification for US military action once the adversary rejects the unacceptable offer. *

Here’s how it has worked in the past half century–a playbook to war that Trump is now clearly following in the case of Iran with his recent ordered assassination of that country’s general and government diplomat.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/trump...urce=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles


----------



## sptrawler

Pre Trump, the media wanted the U.S out of the middle east.
Last year Trump said he would withdraw  the troops and the media said he was leaving them in the lurch.
Now the middle east want the troops out and the media isn't happy.
I can understand, how those who sing to the media song book, are having trouble remembering the words.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Pre Trump, the media wanted the U.S out of the middle east.
> Last year Trump said he would withdraw  the troops and the media said he was leaving them in the lurch.
> Now the middle east want the troops out and the media isn't happy.
> I can understand, how those who sing to the media song book, are having trouble remembering the words.





I think you missed a lot of context and a few nuances there SP but hey its fits the Trump narrative "fake news".........except Fox that is


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> I think you missed a lot of context and a few nuances there SP but hey its fits the Trump narrative "fake news".........except Fox that is



He is coming up for election and he doesn't seem to be getting good press, so I guess the fake news will become obvious in the end.
In a way I hope he gets chucked out, then we can move onto the next subject, if he doesn't this constant noise will no doubt go on and on and on.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> He is coming up for election and he doesn't seem to be getting good press, so I guess the fake news will become obvious in the end.
> In a way I hope he gets chucked out, then we can move onto the next subject, if he doesn't this constant noise will no doubt go on and on and on.




Trump will almost certainly get re-elected so you have another term to go


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Trump will almost certainly get re-elected so you have another term to go



Jesus please NOOOO.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump believes that Climate Change is indeed a serious subject and he will be reading a book about it.

Indeed he will.  Check it out..

_Donald Trump – who today unveiled a plan to bypass environmental review of major infrastructure projects and has aggressively pursued cuts to environmental projection – insists he cares about the environment, too. 

Asked whether *climate change* was a hoax this morning, Trump told reporters “it’s a very serious subject” and he’s going to read a book about it. The New York Times’ Lisa Friedman followed up – and discovered the title of the book he intends to read: Donald J Trump: An Environmental Hero, by Ed Russo.
The book was self-published by Russo, who was an environmental advisor for the Trump Organization.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...elosi-democrats-us-politics-live-news-updates_

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/01/...out-how-trump-loves-the-environment-actually/


----------



## basilio

Perhaps another candidate for the 2020  US election.

Lets go back 30 years .


----------



## bellenuit

Although a stopped clock is right twice a day, I agree somewhat with this story. Again the Left has failed to come out in support of Iranian protesters who are being murdered on the streets of Tehran and other cities.

*Trump’s Iran policy is imperfect, but he grasps truths Obama missed*

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...erfect-but-he-grasps-truths-obama-missed.html

With hundreds killed and thousands injured in the last year alone, it was extraordinarily brave of two state media news reporters to publicly apologies for telling lies on behalf of the state for the last 13 years.

The almost universal support for the killing of Qassem Suleimani by opponents of the regime has been matched by just empty rhetoric by the Left, worried by the "legality" of the assassination but without a word of support for the protesters.

There is a revolution happening right now in Iran and they are crying out for support from the West. But no one is listening. It's the same issue over and over. The Left is only interested in the wrongdoings of the US and its allies. The other side always gets a free pass to do what they like.

*Iranian students 'shame' protesters for walking on US and Israeli flags*

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...rotesters-for-walking-on-u-s-and-israel-flags


----------



## Knobby22

I'm with you bellenuit and I agree there is an attempt at revolution. I knew a Persian and she hated the leaders.
But when you say they are crying for support from the West what do expect you Trump to do?


----------



## chiff

bellenuit said:


> Although a stopped clock is right twice a day, I agree somewhat with this story. Again the Left has failed to come out in support of Iranian protesters who are being murdered on the streets of Tehran and other cities.
> 
> *Trump’s Iran policy is imperfect, but he grasps truths Obama missed*
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...erfect-but-he-grasps-truths-obama-missed.html
> 
> With hundreds killed and thousands injured in the last year alone, it was extraordinarily brave of two state media news reporters to publicly apologies for telling lies on behalf of the state for the last 13 years.
> 
> The almost universal support for the killing of Qassem Suleimani by opponents of the regime has been matched by just empty rhetoric by the Left, worried by the "legality" of the assassination but without a word of support for the protesters.
> 
> There is a revolution happening right now in Iran and they are crying out for support from the West. But no one is listening. It's the same issue over and over. The Left is only interested in the wrongdoings of the US and its allies. The other side always gets a free pass to do what they like.
> 
> *Iranian students 'shame' protesters for walking on US and Israeli flags*
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...rotesters-for-walking-on-u-s-and-israel-flags



Opinion pieces...only days before the opinion was that the slicing up of Salamani brought the nation together.When the Government lied to the public in Iran the country is now ripe for revolution?This opinion piece comes from the USA,only days later.
This begs the question...what would happen in Australia if the government lied to us?Serious matter of not.
Anyone speak Farsi?
Does anyone else value there own opinion foremostly?


----------



## Knobby22

More damning evidence against Trump on the Ukraine thing. One of Guillianes lawyer team has had a crisis of conscious and has started blabbing. Poor guy.

Also the watchdog has produced it's findings. 

I suggest believers avoid non Murdoch news sources for the next two days. Maybe avoid reading this thread also.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> More damning evidence against Trump on the Ukraine thing. One of Guillianes lawyer team has had a crisis of conscious and has started blabbing. Poor guy.
> 
> Also the watchdog has produced it's findings.
> 
> I suggest believers avoid non Murdoch news sources for the next two days. Maybe avoid reading this thread also.



Hardly "damning".

Someone is telling pokies, another Cohan fantasy by the dems at best.

https://time.com/5746417/ukraine-andriy-yermak-impeachment-interview/

*Exclusive: Top Ukraine Official Andriy Yermak Casts Doubt on Key Impeachment Testimony*


----------



## wayneL

Thank Christ it's gone to the Senate, Democrat humiliation will be complete


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Thank Christ it's gone to the Senate, Democrat humiliation will be complete




Look forward to the Republicans calling all witnesses (hilarious) weighing the evidence carefully(screams of laughter)  and giving a full exoneration to the great President Trump along with a bravery medal.....or something all done judiciously with the straight faces that only money can buy.


----------



## dutchie

Donald Trump to sign executive order to dramatically reduce funding of United Nations
*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ments-president-executive-order-a7546486.html*


----------



## kahuna1

The Trump administration is exploring making changes to an anti-_bribe_ry law. Trump has reportedly complained about a 1977 law that makes it illegal for U.S. companies to _bribe_ foreign officials. "It's just so unfair that American companies aren't allowed to pay _bribe_s to get business overseas," Trump said. "We're going to change that." (Bloomberg / The Hill)


----------



## Tink




----------



## kahuna1

*The White House arranged a phone call between Rudy Giuliani and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to discuss Giuliani’s packet of unproven allegations about Joe Biden and former American Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch*. Emails, released as part of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, show that Giuliani and Pompeo first spoke on March 26 for five minutes.


----------



## dutchie

https://babylonbee.com/news/democrats-warn-that-american-people-may-tamper-with-next-election


----------



## Knobby22

You believe that Dutchie?


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> You believe that Dutchie?



Oh most definitely.


----------



## Tink

Bravo, Trump


----------



## moXJO

Trump introduced paid parental leave. Apparently lobbied by his daughter. Business/Economy  side he does seem to have pushed the US forward.

Dems are just a screaming mess. Similar to their voters. I do believe so called progressives have decided authoritarianism is the only way forward. We recently had one of Bernies high level of campaign staff suggest that: "gulags are a good idea and we need to re-educate Republican voters"
He said a bunch of other crazy communist crap on top of that.  It's insane to think this guy could have a high level job to a man that has the potential to be President.


----------



## kahuna1

*The Trump administration will strip federal pollution protections for rivers, streams, and wetlands*. The new rule, which replaces the Obama administration’s “Waters of the United States” regulation, will remove protections from more than half the nation’s wetlands, as well as hundreds of thousands of small waterways. It also allows landowners and property developers to dump pollutants, such as pesticides and fertilizers directly into many of those waterways — or to destroy or fill in wetlands for construction projects. A government advisory board of scientists, many of whom were appointed by Trump, wrote last month that the new rule “neglects established science.” (New York Times / The Guardian / NPR / Axios)

Brilliant ... you can now dump as much untreated sewerage into any river in the USA ...

MAGA .... or Trump for jail 2020

*Trump will become the first sitting president to attend and address the anti-abortion March for Life*, an annual anti-abortion event in Washington. In 2017, Pence became the first sitting vice president to attend the event, and in 2018, Trump became the first president to address the rally by video. In his speech, Trump vowed that his administration would “always defend the very first right in the Declaration of Independence, and that is the right to life.” (Bloomberg / New York Times / CNN)

Yes the religious far right has won !!

I can grab your P ...
I have now 18 women accusing me of rape or groping ... but NO ABORTIONS.

Not even for any reason such as threat to life of woman let alone incest ... RAPE or other such crimes.

America is GREAT ....

*And NO he does not profit off his residency ... whoops Presidency ...*

*Room rates at the Trump National Doral more than doubled just before the White House announced that Trump would address the Republican National Committee’s winter meeting*. The rates raised from from $254 to $539, which is slightly below the maximum per-night rate federal government rules permit for a hotel in South Florida, and is triple the normal “per diem” rate employees are supposed to follow. (HuffPost)


----------



## moXJO

kahuna1 said:


> *The Trump administration will strip federal pollution protections for rivers, streams, and wetlands*. The new rule, which replaces the Obama administration’s “Waters of the United States” regulation, will remove protections from more than half the nation’s wetlands, as well as hundreds of thousands of small waterways. It also allows landowners and property developers to dump pollutants, such as pesticides and fertilizers directly into many of those waterways — or to destroy or fill in wetlands for construction projects. A government advisory board of scientists, many of whom were appointed by Trump, wrote last month that the new rule “neglects established science.” (New York Times / The Guardian / NPR / Axios)
> 
> Brilliant ... you can now dump as much untreated sewerage into any river in the USA ...
> 
> MAGA .... or Trump for jail 2020
> 
> *Trump will become the first sitting president to attend and address the anti-abortion March for Life*, an annual anti-abortion event in Washington. In 2017, Pence became the first sitting vice president to attend the event, and in 2018, Trump became the first president to address the rally by video. In his speech, Trump vowed that his administration would “always defend the very first right in the Declaration of Independence, and that is the right to life.” (Bloomberg / New York Times / CNN)
> 
> Yes the religious far right has won !!
> 
> I can grab your P ...
> I have now 18 women accusing me of rape or groping ... but NO ABORTIONS.
> 
> Not even for any reason such as threat to life of woman let alone incest ... RAPE or other such crimes.
> 
> America is GREAT ....
> 
> *And NO he does not profit off his residency ... whoops Presidency ...*
> 
> *Room rates at the Trump National Doral more than doubled just before the White House announced that Trump would address the Republican National Committee’s winter meeting*. The rates raised from from $254 to $539, which is slightly below the maximum per-night rate federal government rules permit for a hotel in South Florida, and is triple the normal “per diem” rate employees are supposed to follow. (HuffPost)



Obama made a mess of the regulations on water and farmers were getting caught out with no clarity. Even things like snow melt and runoff were causing problems. It's clarity for farmers and it's for smaller bodies of water. The other epa regulations are still in force


----------



## moXJO

Trump is courting farmers and the religious. Obviously their vote will help him in upcoming elections.


----------



## kahuna1

*Trump’s re-election campaign threatened the nonpartisan presidential debate commission that Trump may not participate if the process is not “fair.”* Trump’s campaign manager, Brad Parscale, campaign operating officer, Michael Glassner, complained to Frank Fahrenkopf, the co-chairman of the Commission on Presidential Debates, that the board of directors and moderators were all against the president. Trump privately told advisers that because his television ratings are so high, he can exert more control over the debates. (Washington Post)
==========================================================

Fair being that Trump is declared president for life and all non white, non hetero people leave the country along with all non christian or those pretending like Trump to have a religion ... and those bloody hispanics especially those from _Puerto Rico starting with AOC_. Puerto Rico is of course according to Trump part of Portugal.

Next he will be imposing more travel bans to distract you .... on as many nations as he can .... whoops he did that a few days ... ago ....

Please to announce Trump Tweeted 54 times in 6 hours. I thought he had a 13 year old son ?


----------



## basilio

The impeachment rolls on in the Senate.

Watching the defense lawyers defend the indefensible is Kafkaesque. Meanwhile critical parts of John Boltons book where he explicitly notes Donald Trump tied the  approved Ukraine military aid to announcing investigations into his political opponent *are deemed not evidence.*

*Only in Trumps America.*


*Trump linked Ukraine aid to Biden inquiry, Bolton book draft says – report*
Manuscript written by former national security adviser details material Bolton could be expected to reveal if he were called in the impeachment trial

John Bolton’s account reportedly describes how Donald Trump wanted to delay US aid to Ukraine until the government agreed to investigate Joe Biden Photograph: Leah Millis/Reuters
Joanna Walters in New York
@Joannawalters13
Published on Mon 27 Jan 2020 01.38 GMT

389
The draft of a book by former US national security adviser John Bolton reportedly describes how Donald Trump told him about his determination to delay US military aid to Ukraine until its government agreed to investigate his Democratic rival Joe Biden.

The explosive manuscript details the kind of material that Bolton could be expected to reveal publicly were he to be called as a witness in Trump’s impeachment trial now going on in the US Senate.

The account undermines Trump’s claims that the delay in aid to Ukraine last summer and the president’s efforts to persuade Ukraine to investigate US Democrats were unconnected, the New York Times said as part of its article on Sunday night revealing the Bolton manuscript.

The manuscript reportedly contains new details about the actions of senior cabinet officials including secretary of state Mike Pompeo, attorney general William Barr and acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...o-biden-inquiry-bolton-book-draft-says-report


----------



## kahuna1

*Trump’s spiritual adviser called for “all satanic pregnancies to miscarry.”* Paula White said she was speaking in metaphor. White recently joined the White House Office of Public Liaison as a religious adviser. (Washington Post)

It begs a few questions but the obvious one .... Is this how Trump was created ?


----------



## basilio

A dive into the depths. The new reality.

*Why you must side with Donald Trump on impeachment*
http://catallaxyfiles.com/2020/01/28/why-you-must-side-with-donald-trump-on-impeachment/


----------



## kahuna1

basilio said:


> *Why you must side with Donald Trump on impeachment*




First line ...

A classic

_Since I was asked in a recent post about why we have been avoiding the impeachment story, let me say for myself that there is no there there to discuss._

Obviously full of intellect !! There there ? WTF ?

The rest a climate denial far right site of some delusional moron who would be well suited here. I suspect he is one poster here !!  

One of the numerous drivel filled blogs ... title 

*The enemies of the environment: the Greens*


----------



## moXJO

Bolton a credible witness?
Yeah, right. Not just according to me but also video of him praising Trumps phone call. Schiff saying previously he wasn't a credible witness. And even Obama calling him dodge.
Added to that is that constitutionally Trump should never have been impeached for this.

Let the circus roll on...


----------



## basilio

The argument now being posited by Trumps lawyer is as follows.

*"If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment." https://abcn.ws/2S37weJ*

So, basically , he/Trump are arguing *that anything Trump does to help himself get elected is in the public interest. *
That's right. Put political opponents in jail, create false stories, abuse the Press, whatever, wherever, however he can do anything .

*Divine Right of Kings I believe*
*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...08e133247395a9#block-5e31df018f08e133247395a9*


----------



## basilio

The Questions and answers session in teh Senate are throwing some critical questions now and for the future of the US political system.

*4:32 p.m. House manager Lofgren warns of consequences of obstruction*
Democratic senators asks the House managers if there is any precedent for a president to refuse to cooperate with Congress on an investigation and the possible consequences if the Senate votes to acquit him despite those decisions to block witnesses and withhold documents.

House manager Zoe Lofgren calls the president's actions an "extreme measure" to hide evidence from Congress and that no other president has ordered a witness not to cooperate with an impeachment inquiry.

She argues if the Senate doesn't move strongly against that obstruction it could make it impossible for Congress to conduct oversight of future presidents.

"If the president can say, you're not sending any witnesses. We are not sending documents. We don't have to. We don't like your processes. We have a wholesale rejection of what you are doing. That is not the way our constitution was created. For each body has responsibility. There is a sharing of power. I, and I know you cherish the responsibility that we have. That will be eviscerated if the president's complete stonewalling is allowed to persist and be accepted by this body," she says.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sil...questions-impeachment-trial/story?id=68594255


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The Questions and answers session in teh Senate are throwing some critical questions now and for the future of the US political system.
> 
> *4:32 p.m. House manager Lofgren warns of consequences of obstruction*
> Democratic senators asks the House managers if there is any precedent for a president to refuse to cooperate with Congress on an investigation and the possible consequences if the Senate votes to acquit him despite those decisions to block witnesses and withhold documents.
> 
> House manager Zoe Lofgren calls the president's actions an "extreme measure" to hide evidence from Congress and that no other president has ordered a witness not to cooperate with an impeachment inquiry.
> 
> She argues if the Senate doesn't move strongly against that obstruction it could make it impossible for Congress to conduct oversight of future presidents.
> 
> "If the president can say, you're not sending any witnesses. We are not sending documents. We don't have to. We don't like your processes. We have a wholesale rejection of what you are doing. That is not the way our constitution was created. For each body has responsibility. There is a sharing of power. I, and I know you cherish the responsibility that we have. That will be eviscerated if the president's complete stonewalling is allowed to persist and be accepted by this body," she says.
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sil...questions-impeachment-trial/story?id=68594255



He shouldn't have been impeached in the first place.


----------



## kahuna1

*White House Spiritual Adviser Paula White Commands 'All Satanic Pregnancies to Miscarry*



Are they serious .... Impeach ? I would send anyone near this person to the loony bin !!

Leader of the USA .... its chilling !!


----------



## dutchie

Impeachment process of Joe Biden should be started immediately.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> The argument now being posited by Trumps lawyer is as follows.
> 
> *"If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment." https://abcn.ws/2S37weJ*
> 
> So, basically , he/Trump are arguing *that anything Trump does to help himself get elected is in the public interest. *
> That's right. Put political opponents in jail, create false stories, abuse the Press, whatever, wherever, however he can do anything .
> 
> *Divine Right of Kings I believe*
> *https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...08e133247395a9#block-5e31df018f08e133247395a9*




At least you have moved on from the Brexit thread.


----------



## basilio

A wrap-up  and reminder of total loss of integrity by the Republican Party in the US.

* Republicans march over the impeachment cliff – taking their self-respect with them *
Richard Wolffe
How can Republicans pretend to the world that their vision of America – where a president can happily use military aid to coerce a foreign government to smear his political rival in an election – is the model for democracy?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/31/republicans-impeachment-trump-richard-wolffe


----------



## wayneL




----------



## IFocus

I wonder what the fall out will be as Trump is now Caesar.

Still it is the US but then I doubt the founding fathers would ever think it would get this crazy.

Given the amount of options that Trump gave for impeachment I wonder what the next 4 years will bring.


----------



## Knobby22

Why Democracy's Fail

The title of a new book, an historical tome on why Democracy's fail the last chapter being about Modern USA.

I heard the writer speak. He was fascinating. Why Argentina failed which had a democracy almost word for word based on the USA, Weichmart in Germany etc.

It was scary when he started talking about the USA.

For instance: there used to be protections against Demogogues that have been removed. Ford of Ford motorcars for instance (a last century demogogue) tried to become President but he couldn't get past the systems.

Other sections of the Constitution can also be bypassed easily. For instance if the President loses a vote in the high court he can just stack on more judges of his choosing. He can add another 10 if he wishes.  In his opinion, the USA is in danger of losing democracy. We are lucky it is an old guy like Trump at present, not some young Adolf running the country.

I am going to buy the book as it was quite interesting.

From the review:

If you listen to conservative discussion and debate, it’s hard to miss the rising tone of skepticism about democracy—and increasing impatience with the claim that everybody should have convenient access to the ballot. The pessimism about the society and the weakness of the party have left Republicans vulnerable to an authoritarian populist like Donald Trump. Party rules that would once have screened out a Trump have given way to partisan antagonisms that empower him.

Some conservative intellectuals attribute Trump’s ascendancy to a betrayal of conservative ideals. That’s true so far as it goes. But the more relevant truth, as Ziblatt teaches us, is that Trump arose because of the hollowing out of conservative institutions. The Republican party could not stop him. Now it cannot restrain him. And this weakness of the Republican party—and its craven subordination to the ego, ambition, and will-to-power of one man—now stands as the gravest immediate threat to American democracy: a lesson from the 19th century of frightening immediacy to the 21st.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/why-do-democracies-fail/530949/


----------



## wayneL

The Atlantic.. LOL


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> I wonder what the fall out will be as Trump is now Caesar.
> 
> Still it is the US but then I doubt the founding fathers would ever think it would get this crazy.
> 
> Given the amount of options that Trump gave for impeachment I wonder what the next 4 years will bring.



Which options are these? 

I mean, actual options, not dream world fit ups in leftist fantasies?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> The Atlantic.. LOL



Yes, you can ignore it. There's a quote from Barack Obama on this review so don't read further. I will pay and send you a free copy if you promise to look at it though.

Here's another review.
*How Democracies Die : The International Bestseller: What History Reveals About Our Future*
  4.22 (7,851 ratings by Goodreads)

Paperback
English
By (author)   Steven Levitsky  , By (author)   Daniel Ziblatt 

Share
How does a democracy die?
What can we do to save our own?
What lessons does history teach us?

In the 21st century democracy is threatened like never before. Drawing insightful lessons from across history - from Pinochet's murderous Chilean regime to Erdogan's quiet dismantling in Turkey - Levitsky and Ziblatt explain why democracies fail, how leaders like Trump subvert them today and what each of us can do to protect our democratic rights.

'A useful primer on the importance of norms, institutional restraints and civic participation in maintaining a democracy - and how quickly those things can erode when we're not paying attention' President Barack Obama

'A must-read' Andrew Marr, Sunday Times

'Excellent, scholarly, readable, alarming and level-headed' Nick Cohen, Observer

'The greatest of the many merits of Levitsky and Ziblatt's How Democracies Die is their rejection of western exceptionalism. They tell inspiring stories I had not heard before. Excellent' Nick Cohen, Observer

'Provocative, timely. One of my favourite reads this year' Elif Shafak, author of The Bastard of Istanbul

'Anyone who is concerned about the future of democracy should read this brisk, accessible book. Anyone who is not concerned should definitely read it' Daron Acemoglu, co-author of Why Nations Fail

'A lucid and essential guide to what can happen' Jennifer Szalai, New York Times

'We owe the authors a debt of thanks for bringing their deep understanding to bear on the central political issue of the day' Francis Fukuyama, author of Political Order and Political Decay
https://www.bookdepository.com/How-Democracies-Die-Steven-Levitsky/9780241381359

                    'In this brilliant historical synthesis, Levitsky and Ziblatt show how the actions of elected leaders around the world have paved the road to democratic failure, and why the United States is now vulnerable to this same downward spiral. This book should be widely and urgently read as a clarion call to restore the shared beliefs and practices-beyond our formal constitution - that constitute the essential 'guardrails' for preserving democracy' Larry Diamond, author of The Spirit of Democracy


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Which options are these?
> 
> I mean, actual options, not dream world fit ups in leftist fantasies?




Whats a "leftist fantasies" and be care in your answer  as the US hasnt any leftestsppittles nor Australia for that matter.


----------



## basilio

Does this come as a"leftist Fantasy" or  perhaps  a "Fascists wet dream"

*Montana Lawmaker Rebuked for Saying the Constitution Calls for Jailing or Shooting Socialists*

*By  Tara Law   *

* February 2, 2020 *

A Montana lawmaker is facing controversy after he claimed at an event for the state’s Republican Party on Friday that the U.S. Constitution holds that socialists can be jailed or shot, reports say.

State Rep. Rodney Garcia, who represents part of Billings, Mont., in House District 52, also expressed concern about socialists “entering our government” at an event in Helena, Mont., on Friday, according to the Billings _Gazette._

Asked by a reporter about the comments on Saturday, Garcia reportedly stood by them.
*
 “So actually in the Constitution of the United States (if) they are found guilty of being a socialist member you either go to prison or are shot,” he told a reporter, according to the Billings Gazette.*

*“They’re enemies of the free state,” Garcia reportedly said. “What do we do with our enemies in war?”*

*https://time.com/5776337/montana-rodney-garcia-socialists-shot-jailed/*


----------



## wayneL

Dumb stuff. But come on bazzz, there is endless depth to such thoughts from the Komrades, eg:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/11/climate-change-activists-want-punishment-for-skept/



basilio said:


> Does this come as a"leftist Fantasy" or  perhaps  a "Fascists wet dream"
> 
> *Montana Lawmaker Rebuked for Saying the Constitution Calls for Jailing or Shooting Socialists*
> 
> *By  Tara Law   *
> 
> * February 2, 2020 *
> 
> A Montana lawmaker is facing controversy after he claimed at an event for the state’s Republican Party on Friday that the U.S. Constitution holds that socialists can be jailed or shot, reports say.
> 
> State Rep. Rodney Garcia, who represents part of Billings, Mont., in House District 52, also expressed concern about socialists “entering our government” at an event in Helena, Mont., on Friday, according to the Billings _Gazette._
> 
> Asked by a reporter about the comments on Saturday, Garcia reportedly stood by them.
> *
> “So actually in the Constitution of the United States (if) they are found guilty of being a socialist member you either go to prison or are shot,” he told a reporter, according to the Billings Gazette.*
> 
> *“They’re enemies of the free state,” Garcia reportedly said. “What do we do with our enemies in war?”*
> 
> *https://time.com/5776337/montana-rodney-garcia-socialists-shot-jailed/*


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Dumb stuff. But come on bazzz, there is endless depth to such thoughts from the Komrades, eg:
> 
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/11/climate-change-activists-want-punishment-for-skept/



Really ? So that's your quid pro quo Wayne ?

On the one hand we have a stream of Climate Change liars systematically destroying /undermining our need to respond to the greatest threat facing our world. 

And  then you compare anger at their duplicity in the same light as a* Law Maker in a US State attempts to make up lies about the US Constitution to justify  imprisoning or killing people he declares to be socialists*.

I really think The Don should* immediately*  put you on his Legal team Wayne. You clearly have the chops to defend anything and everything.


----------



## sptrawler

What is the result of Trump's impeachment, is it over?


----------



## wayneL

Thanks bazzz.. zzz...zzz

You have obviously forgotten about the 350.org wet dream of blowing children up... That is not to mention the roughly 170 million people murdered by your side of politics last century.


----------



## basilio

_Wayne  your a total drop kick.._
--------------------------------------------
What happens if The Don loses the next election ?  In light of how he and rusted on, gun toting, fact free supporters view the world consider this.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> _Wayne  your a total drop kick.._
> --------------------------------------------
> What happens if The Don loses the next election ?  In light of how he and rusted on, gun toting, fact free supporters view the world consider this.




A drop kick?

Well, being a free speech absolutist, I think you're perfectly entitled to think and say that. No doubt the other Marxists here will cheerlead you on like good little Komrades, devoid of any real argument.

I would dare you to say that to my face though, Komrade.

Even though I eschew violence and the extent of my physical reaction would be a roll of the eyes, I doubt you'd have the balls.


----------



## basilio

Take 10 minutes to listen to the two journalists to spoke to over 200 White House officials to understand the three years of this one man government. To sum it up

*Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution, says Trump “appears to be daring the rest of the political system to stop him – and if it doesn’t he’ll go further. The law has no force without people who are willing to enforce it.”*

The review is also enlightening.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...w-donald-trump-leonnig-rucker-washington-post


----------



## basilio

From Amazon re A Very Stable Genius




Elisa 20Top Contributor: Health & Wellness
TOP 500 REVIEWERVINE VOICE
_4.0 out of 5 stars_ Well-written and well-researched narrative of governing with Trump in charge. But... 
January 21, 2020
Format: Kindle EditionVerified Purchase
This is a well researched book, of course, given Rucker's and Leonnig's reputation (and a Pulitzer prize each). They interviewed nearly 200 people, many of them top Trump advisors although most chose to remain unnamed sources. There are a lot of quotes, enlivening the text, and they know how to lay out a strong narrative with often-vivid details about the participants.

There's no getting around it President Trump is shown as erratic, impulsive, ignorant of the things a president should know, vindictive, profane and mean. He runs a chaotic administration and likes it that way. Pitting people against each other, creating insecure lackeys, is his preferred management style. He did it at the Trump Organization, and the opportunities for testing loyalties--and making himself the center of all the attention--are even greater now.

How many books describing a completely unfit president will be published before his core support drops significantly? Books come. Books go, and yet Trump's support among Republicans in Congress and voters (95% or so approve of him) remains basically unchanged. (And, spoiler. The title is ironic, at least for the authors. Trump, who's used it at least four times, seems completely convinced of his superiority. In his mind, it is always others who have to be wrong--while he has to get all of the credit. The writing was on the wall for Steve Bannon after he made the cover of TIME. Trump treats both political appointees and experienced government experts the same--with disdain and disrespect. He doesn't listen, won't learn, and thinks he knows "more than the generals"...also, more than the communications director, the financial experts, intelligence officials, lawyers....and on and on. As some previous biographers have noted, it would not surprise him to be told he knows more than anyone. He would agree.) When things go wrong—and they often do—his first thought is to find someone to blame. (And blame them he will, even if the problems were caused because they did exactly as he told them to.)


----------



## sptrawler

I just saw this on the SMH website, they are usually pretty scathing of him, yet this is a pretty rosy picture.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...-for-2020-election-pitch-20200205-p53xy5.html
From the article:
_The US President's annual address to Congress comes on the eve of Trump's inevitable acquittal in his Senate impeachment trial and with a respected poll showing his approval rating soaring to an all-time high.
"In just three short years, we have shattered the mentality of American decline and we have rejected the downsizing of America’s destiny," Trump said. "We are moving forward at a pace that was unimaginable just a short time ago, and we are never going back!"

*He emphasised the economic benefits low-income earners had enjoyed since his election*.
"*Since my election, the net worth of the bottom half of wage earners has increased by 47 per cent, three times faster than the increase for the top 1 per cent*," Trump said.

"This is a blue collar boom."

*The latest Gallup poll released just before the speech showed Trump's job approval at 49 per cent, the highest it has been since he took office*_.

It sounds as though the 'Elite's" are having trouble, swinging the 'Blue Collar' support their way, not that much different than what happened here really.


----------



## moXJO

Democrats and the left have this retarded view of what freedom is.
Trump is hardly a dictator. He would be disarming the public. Taking out political opponents with fake accusations. And running roughshod over the constitution. 

Take a step back and it's the democrats time and again.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Democrats and the left have this retarded view of what freedom is.
> Trump is hardly a dictator. He would be disarming the public. Taking out political opponents with fake accusations. And running roughshod over the constitution.
> 
> Take a step back and it's the democrats time and again.



'
No one thinks Trump will be a dictator (he is too old for one) but he is exposing the weaknesses in the US constitution. It's become obvious how a future dictator can exploit these. As Wayne puts on his byline, slowly we inch.


----------



## basilio

The rise of the Strong Man.  The demise of checks and balances on our leaders.  It happened in the 1930's. George Monbiot examines where we are in 2020.

*'Try to stop me’ – the mantra of our leaders who are now ruling with impunity *
George Monbiot
Trump, Bolsonaro, Modi, Johnson. Across the world, flouting the law has become normalised. We have to stop it

 @GeorgeMonbiot 
Wed 5 Feb 2020 07.00 GMT

It is not a sufficient condition for fascism to take root, but it is a necessary one: the willingness of political leaders not only to break the law but to revel in breaking it is a fatal step towards the replacement of democracy with authoritarian terror.

We see this at work in the United States today, where the Republican party’s blatant disregard for the constitution will allow Donald Trump to escape impeachment.

If Trump is elected for a second term, he will test to the limit the potential for wielding unconstitutional power. But the phenomenon is not confined to the US. Several powerful governments now wear illegality almost as a badge of honour.

It’s happening in the UK too. The Brexit vote was secured with the help of blatant illegality

Fascist and prefascist governments share, among others, two linked characteristics: they proudly flout the laws that are supposed to restrain them while introducing new, often unconstitutional laws to contain political opponents or oppress minorities.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-our-leaders-who-are-now-ruling-with-impunity


----------



## sptrawler

IMO it boils down to the media failed to get its way here, the media failed in the U.K and now the media has failed in The U.S.
Maybe the middle class is fed up with the media telling them what to think?

Just my opinion from an uninterested observer.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> The rise of the Strong Man.  The demise of checks and balances on our leaders.  It happened in the 1930's. George Monbiot examines where we are in 2020.
> 
> *'Try to stop me’ – the mantra of our leaders who are now ruling with impunity *
> George Monbiot
> Trump, Bolsonaro, Modi, Johnson. Across the world, flouting the law has become normalised. We have to stop it
> 
> @GeorgeMonbiot
> Wed 5 Feb 2020 07.00 GMT
> 
> It is not a sufficient condition for fascism to take root, but it is a necessary one: the willingness of political leaders not only to break the law but to revel in breaking it is a fatal step towards the replacement of democracy with authoritarian terror.
> 
> We see this at work in the United States today, where the Republican party’s blatant disregard for the constitution will allow Donald Trump to escape impeachment.
> 
> If Trump is elected for a second term, he will test to the limit the potential for wielding unconstitutional power. But the phenomenon is not confined to the US. Several powerful governments now wear illegality almost as a badge of honour.
> 
> It’s happening in the UK too. The Brexit vote was secured with the help of blatant illegality
> 
> Fascist and prefascist governments share, among others, two linked characteristics: they proudly flout the laws that are supposed to restrain them while introducing new, often unconstitutional laws to contain political opponents or oppress minorities.
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-our-leaders-who-are-now-ruling-with-impunity



Grade A USDA approved Bullsh1t.

The Moonbat has lost the plot.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Grade A USDA approved Bullsh1t.
> 
> The Moonbat has lost the plot.




Excellent ! An A grade Wayne Bullsxit score means George has definitely hit the bullseye.
Check it out.


----------



## basilio

Mitt Romneys last word on why we voted to impeach Donald Trump.
Should see Mitts' head on a pike any day now ..


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Mitt Romneys last word on why we voted to impeach Donald Trump.
> Should see Mitts' head on a pike any day now ..





I think Romney is setting himself up as a 'honest' candidate at the next election, and he can (rightly in my opinion) portray all the other Republican candidates as smeared by association and defence of Trump.

Pretty clever I reckon. His party won't like it, but the electorate may.


----------



## basilio

Found Mitt Romney complete address to the Senate trial.

Incredibly gutsy.  Obviously he is going to be abused from here to eternity by the Don and the rest of of his inline followers. But the the Don has always been a lying, vindictive  xhit who has ruled through terror.

This was an Atticus Finch moment.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> I think Romney is setting himself up as a 'honest' candidate at the next election, and he can (rightly in my opinion) portray all the other Republican candidates as smeared by association and defence of Trump.
> 
> Pretty clever I reckon. His party won't like it, but the electorate may.




Creative idea.. I wonder what would happen if he decided to run as an Independent  Republician?   Could he do so ? How many Republicans would follow him ?  That would be  a fascinating scenario..


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Excellent ! An A grade Wayne Bullsxit score means George has definitely hit the bullseye.
> Check it out.



On comedic value, I agree.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Creative idea.. I wonder what would happen if he decided to run as an Independent  Republician?   Could he do so ? How many Republicans would follow him ?  That would be  a fascinating scenario..



Who's going to vote for him?
Dems won't and neither will Republican.


----------



## IFocus

Anyone watch that reality show called "State of the union Address"


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Anyone watch that reality show called "State of the union Address"



if this the State of the union address where Nancy Pelosi finally put the last nail in the coffin of her career?


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> if this the State of the union address where Nancy Pelosi finally put the last nail in the coffin of her career?




At 79 years old Nancy has like more 70% of the US federal politicians have long overstayed their usefulness.

Strangely Trump will get re-elected continue to disregard long held conventions of democracy, likely get impeached again and the circus will roll on.

The US will continue to divide and wealth will continue to flow away from lower and middle classes while the same cohort will be blaming the socialists for their evils.

Strange days.


----------



## basilio

Here's a first. Bill Maher making a plea to the Don and promising to Vote for him. IF...
 From 2.07 it's very good..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> promising to Vote for him.



Its a wonder Bill didn't burst into flames after those words passed his lips. The guy is a hack.


----------



## orr

The PBS Frontline pull apart on the 'American Divide' with long interviews with Steve Bannon, Scaramochi and others is a wonderful internal view point on this macabre train wreck of an administration.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Its a wonder Bill didn't burst into flames after those words passed his lips. The guy is a hack.




And did you view the clip ?
Didn't think so.

Yep if Donald Trump ever decided to become a champion of the Earth and throw his considerable power into tackling runaway global  warming I too would support him in heartbeat.

Bill made that point very cleverly, very honestly and still realising that there was no way in this universe this possibility was going to happen.

On the other hand  there is the story of Sauls conversion  on the road to Damascus.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> And did you view the clip ?
> Didn't think so.
> 
> Yep if Donald Trump ever decided to become a champion of the Earth and throw his considerable power into tackling runaway global  warming I too would support him in heartbeat.
> 
> Bill made that point very cleverly, very honestly and still realising that there was no way in this universe this possibility was going to happen.
> 
> On the other hand  there is the story of Sauls conversion  on the road to Damascus.



You and every other lefty would pi55 and moan he wasn't doing it right even if he did throw his weight behind it. 
No one believes bill would ever vote trump. Being anti-trump is his meal ticket.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> You and every other lefty would pi55 and moan he wasn't doing it right even if he did throw his weight behind it.
> No one believes bill would ever vote trump. Being anti-trump is his meal ticket.




Unfair and unbelievable.
Ok I agree the likelihood of a radical change of spirit from Donald Trump is approaching  absolute infinity. It is far more of a dream than a serious thought.
Having said that when one is as aware  (as many of us are ) of what the consequences of CC  will be an the disasters  in store we look for miracles wherever we can find them.

If that miracle was a 180 degree turn of view by Donald Trump to take the types of action required to tackle global warming he would have the support of the overwhelming majority of scientists and people who understand the science. To suggest otherwise is just a  nonsense.


----------



## Knobby22

Trump has released a fake video. I am shocked. Thought I was inurred but obviously not.


----------



## moXJO

https://help.ftx.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039118112-Trump-2020


Knobby22 said:


> Trump has released a fake video. I am shocked. Thought I was inurred but obviously not.



If you are talking about the Pelosi tearing his speech, well it's not exactly fake. She ripped it up then paraded around with it.

The video was edited but the sentiment was the exact same.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Unfair and unbelievable.
> Ok I agree the likelihood of a radical change of spirit from Donald Trump is approaching  absolute infinity. It is far more of a dream than a serious thought.
> Having said that when one is as aware  (as many of us are ) of what the consequences of CC  will be an the disasters  in store we look for miracles wherever we can find them.
> 
> If that miracle was a 180 degree turn of view by Donald Trump to take the types of action required to tackle global warming he would have the support of the overwhelming majority of scientists and people who understand the science. To suggest otherwise is just a  nonsense.



He would not have support. Did you miss the last few years or something. He is literally hounded for everything he has done.

He is also the only guy that could get it done, so it's a shame.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Trump has released a fake video. I am shocked. Thought I was *inurred* but obviously not.




Never seen that word before Knobby, thanks, that's an engineer for you.


----------



## Knobby22

Not engineering, used to be used quite a bit.

_inure- accustom (someone) to something, especially something unpleasant.
"these children have been inured to violence"_


----------



## sptrawler

Looks like the 'Wall' is going up.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...asted-for-border-wall-construction/ar-BBZM8Mt


----------



## wayneL

I have contact to a *lot of my American colleagues via a private profession based Facebook group. They would be 90-95% Trump supporters. FYI, this is the typical thought process of these men and women.

"In the election of 2016, when offered the choice between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, sixty three million Americans chose Donald Trump.  The President carried thirty States as compared to Clinton's twenty.  These numbers do not mean that all who voted for Trump believed he was the ideal man for the job.  Only that he was the better choice of the two most viable candidates.  When deciding on a candidate, there are other considerations that go well beyond the individual who is running for election.  Those considerations are rooted in a large number of domestic and foreign policy expectations.

When the political Left attacks Americans who voted for Donald Trump, they are attempting to create the illusion that your voting choice was somehow limited in consideration to the character and personality of the individual candidate.  What they actually know, and willfully fail to acknowledge, is the very reasonable presumption that your vote had far more to do with a desire for sweeping changes across all branches of government.  What the "elitists" refuse to acknowledge, is that Americans didn't just vote for Donald Trump in 2016.  They voted in favor of a more conservative agenda at nearly all levels of government.  This reality terrifies the political Left.  They know that the President represents only a temporary position, but that his power while in that position can effect change that will last for years beyond his term of office. 

So when we read or hear of the attacks on the President and those that voted for him, it is important to remember that those attacks aren't really about Donald Trump or about you.  Those attacks are about fear.  Fear of change that the political left abhors.  Fear of undermining the plans they have to completely destroy the individual liberties of a free people. 

The political Left detests the founding Judeo/Christian principles of western civilization. They detest your right to be secure in your privacy, your property and your person.  They detest the notion that a free man is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  They detest the strength and stability found in traditional family values.  They detest the notion of borders and a sovereign nation.  They detest the notion that assurance of equal opportunity does not come with a guarantee of equal outcome.  They detest the notion that those who are not citizens of this nation are not afforded the opportunity to vote in support of their destructive agenda. They detest the Constitutionally guaranteed electoral college that prevents the mob rule they desperately need to control you.  And perhaps most, they detest the reality that they are forbidden the power to infringe upon your right to keep and bear arms in defense of your freedoms. 

Yes, those on the political left honestly do hate you.  But perhaps more importantly, they fear you and, in my humble opinion, they should."


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I have contact to a *lot of my American colleagues via a private profession based Facebook group. They would be 90-95% Trump supporters. FYI, this is the typical thought process of these men and women.




Right Wing redneck ideology I'm afraid, again a limited sample size.

There are a lot of problems with the "Left", but there are more problems with the "Right" afaic. And while some people concentrate on the fringes of the political spectrum the great middle American public just get on with their lives.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Right Wing nutcase ideology I'm afraid, again a limited sample size.
> 
> There are a lot of problems with the "Left", but there are more problems with the "Right" afaic. And while some people concentrate on the fringes of the political spectrum the great middle American public just get on with their lives.



You'd be surprised how mainstream it is once you get away from California and Massachusetts.

I also have several relatives there, many of whom share most of these views.

It's just FYI to get a glimpse of why Trump will most likely win again.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> You'd be surprised how mainstream it is
> 
> It's just FYI to get a glimpse of why Trump will most likely win again.




Not surprised at all and yes Trump will most certainly get another term.

But reading that takes you straight to Nazi Germany (not calling your friends Nazi's BTW) where the demonisation of the other side (In Nazi Germany's case Jews, unions anyone left all called communists etc) using a totally false narrative that's then repeated in the community.

This is the power of manipulation using fear which in psychology is a lot more powerful than positive motivation, its sad really.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> But reading that takes you straight to Nazi Germany (not calling your friends Nazi's BTW) where the demonisation of the other side (In Nazi Germany's case Jews, unions anyone left all called communists etc) using a totally false narrative that's then repeated in the community.
> 
> This is the power of manipulation using fear which in psychology is a lot more powerful than positive motivation, its sad really.




Whoa there Sapphire!

Name calling from the left (which you implicitly just did, in spite of your preemptive denial)... Nazi, fascist, deplorables, and so on... and on.

Cancel culture?

Yes this idenditariansism, moral sermonising and ideological McCarthyism *was the MO of the right.

The right, rightly realized that is was bad **** and reformed, only for the left to take it up (Rules For Radicals, anyone?).

Now we figuratively have Newton's 2nd law of motion whereupon the right are starting to match the toxicity of the left (and I fear that is probably just getting started).

Just my observations, don't shoot the messenger bro.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Whoa there Sapphire!
> 
> Name calling from the left (which you implicitly just did, in spite of your preemptive denial)... Nazi, fascist, deplorables, and so on... and on.
> 
> Cancel culture?




I was clearly talking about the process not calling anyone names at all.

To be honest I don't think any name would be able to describe the tirade from right / extreme right media / money interests / Republican politicians and their ilk railing against an invisible enemy so extreme that even I have never met in real life and that goes for the odd old communists that used to be in the union movement.

The issue still remains that went such an extreme false narrative is repeated ad nauseam by the general public that's been nurtured and started by incumbent politicians reinforced by select media then you have a seriously frightening problem.


----------



## wayneL

LMAO. 

And while you lot can't see yourself in the mirror, you will keep losing.


----------



## sptrawler

Trump is in trouble again, apparently for hand signals.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/qanon-con...ponse-to-donald-trump-q-symbol-002645230.html

It is all becoming weird, how an article like that could be written, shows people need a job IMO.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> LMAO.
> 
> And while you lot can't see yourself in the mirror, you will keep losing.




That sums the problem, you missed the entire point as in your mind it appears to only about winning at all costs being that the cost could well be as extreme as the views propagated god help us if that evolves.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> That sums the problem, you missed the entire point as in your mind it appears to only about winning at all costs being that the cost could well be as extreme as the views propagated god help us if that evolves.



Winning at all costs?

Again, the left are way over the top on this as well... Russia fake news, the ludicrous and embarrassing impeachment farce, and all the other petty tricks the Dems have tried.

Surely you can see that?


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Winning at all costs?
> 
> Again, the left are way over the top on this as well... Russia fake news, the ludicrous and embarrassing impeachment farce, and all the other petty tricks the Dems have tried.
> 
> Surely you can see that?




The impeachment trial was a farce allright because Trump's mates wouldn't let witnesses testify.

Can you really say that was a honest tactic ?


----------



## Knobby22

Where Trump walks, flowers bloom.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> Where Trump walks, flowers bloom.




I presume you mean because of all the sh*t he leaves behind ?


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> The impeachment trial was a farce allright because Trump's mates wouldn't let witnesses testify.
> 
> Can you really say that was a honest tactic ?




Huh?

You think the Dems were honest about the whole thing? Oh boy!


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Huh?
> 
> You think the Dems were honest about the whole thing? Oh boy!




In what way were the Dem's dishonest ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> The impeachment trial was a farce allright because Trump's mates wouldn't let witnesses testify.
> 
> Can you really say that was a honest tactic ?



They did in the house. And there was nothing impeachment worthy. It was all a tactic to tear him down in an election year and it failed, miserably.
It's one b.s. attempt after another. How many have we had now?

It's not just the impeachment trial that's a farce, but the democrats as a whole.

Remember the Russian hoax. Turns out the fbi is getting their asses torn and now sued over what happened. 
How about kavanaugh. Turns out fords best friend that was at the house wasn't actually there according to her book. And that she not only doubted the claims but was also blackmailed by Ford supporters. This from a supposed key witness according to Ford.

There is a long list of lies coming from dems supporters. And yet not one is touched on. It's forward to the next b.s. story like the supposed "fake video" above. Pelosi did those things. It's not fake. The intent and outcome were the same. Everyone watched it.

It's all just power games. An attempt of each side bringing down the other. Dems and supporters have gone nuclear and lost the plot though.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> In what way were the Dem's dishonest ?



How about when they said impeachment was urgent and then delayed sending the papers over.

There is a giant list of lies.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> How about when they said impeachment was urgent and then delayed sending the papers over.
> 
> There is a giant list of lies.




The Republicans are more smeared for covering up for a crook.

It will be nice to see Trump's smear tactics turned back on him.


----------



## Knobby22

If you tell a lie big enough and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
Human nature.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> If you tell a lie big enough and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
> Human nature.



It's not working for the dems is it. Truth eventually comes out.
The fact is every trump hater here ignores the truth when it eventually comes to light. 

Meanwhile biden family corruption is still ignored.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> The Republicans are more smeared for covering up for a crook.
> 
> It will be nice to see Trump's smear tactics turned back on him.



How did they cover up?

It was a farce from the start.


----------



## IFocus

Mo pointing out flaws, corruption, bad behavior, lying etc is not hate, please Trump and the Republicans provide endless material.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Mo pointing out flaws, corruption, bad behavior, lying etc is not hate, please Trump and the Republicans provide endless material.



Where did I say it wasn't ?

Using false information to spy on a presidential candidate is what? A big hug?

How many examples have there been of dems lying to garner support in a power move.
I'm not talking mud  slinging. I'm talking abuse of the constitution, outright corruption and lies. 

There is a long line of sht and lies from the dems. I've routinely pointed it out.  None of you have once said "yep dems are wrong on this one". That's cult thinking. 
I think trump is a shtbag capable of all kinds of nefarious deeds, but damn if he doesn't make me laugh. Biden looking like a shifty bastard after trump got impeached was a masterstroke.
Along with Pelosi looking like a nutter.

I reckon Bloomberg has a good chance of winning dems and the best bet against Trump.
Sanders would destroy the democrat party


----------



## explod

moXJO said:


> Where did I say it wasn't ?
> 
> Using false information to spy on a presidential candidate is what? A big hug?
> 
> How many examples have there been of dems lying to garner support in a power move.
> I'm not talking mud  slinging. I'm talking abuse of the constitution, outright corruption and lies.
> 
> There is a long line of sht and lies from the dems. I've routinely pointed it out.  None of you have once said "yep dems are wrong on this one". That's cult thinking.
> I think trump is a shtbag capable of all kinds of nefarious deeds, but damn if he doesn't make me laugh. Biden looking like a shifty bastard after trump got impeached was a masterstroke.
> Along with Pelosi looking like a nutter.
> 
> I reckon Bloomberg has a good chance of winning dems and the best bet against Trump.
> Sanders would destroy the democrat party



I have indicated that my line is similar to yours. And the b:shite goes back years to when the democrats interfered in the governing of Ukraine to hold back Russian oil and gas to Europe.

I don't like Trump either but his line is obvious, the dems work in the dark side with the CIA/FBI


----------



## moXJO

explod said:


> I have indicated that my line is similar to yours. And the b:shite goes back years to when the democrats interfered in the governing of Ukraine to hold back Russian oil and gas to Europe.
> 
> I don't like Trump either but his line is obvious, the dems work in the dark side with the CIA/FBI



Trump will destroy the old guard on both sides and God knows it was due for a clean out. Not sure if what comes next is better or worse.
 But truth be told; Obama and Bush were both terrible and led the US into huge problems. 
China and Russia were pulling too far in front at the end of Obamas reign.

US politics are dirty and Trump (indirectly or not) has shone a light on the crap that goes on. 
Even Pelosi pre ripping the speech shows every move is carefully scripted beforehand. 

Hopefully he clears a good portion of the WH staff as well.


----------



## SirRumpole

Summing up Trump's term so far.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Summing up Trump's term so far.




They do it it very well.


----------



## macca

I find it interesting how passionately the entertainment industry subscribe to the left wing ideology. Seems to happen in every country, here USA UK etc must admit I don't understand why. 

The arts really very heavily on Govt handouts and sponsorships from Industry yet they seem to rant against the very hands that feed them.

I guess when you live in a world of fantasy it is logical to be illogical


----------



## IFocus

macca said:


> I find it interesting how passionately the entertainment industry subscribe to the left wing ideology. Seems to happen in every country, here USA UK etc must admit I don't understand why.
> 
> The arts really very heavily on Govt handouts and sponsorships from Industry yet they seem to rant against the very hands that feed them.
> 
> I guess when you live in a world of fantasy it is logical to be illogical




When they dig up past civilizations its the arts they look to when trying to work out how the society worked.

Conservative governments are notorious for cutting arts budgets.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> When they dig up past civilizations its the arts they look to when trying to work out how the society worked.
> 
> Conservative governments are notorious for cutting arts budgets.



What are they going to dig up?
A copy of "Dude, where's  my car?"


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> What are they going to dig up?
> A copy of "Dude, where's  my car?"




Its the arts that define societies / culture and the like not politicians.


----------



## macca

IFocus said:


> Its the arts that define societies / culture and the like not politicians.




On reading historical books it was common for artists to have patrons or live in residence at a castle while doing art work.

In the past it could have been an attempt at oneupmanship to have a beautiful painting or sculpture, so the sponsor foots the bill but owns the artwork  

Not so in most cases today, the taxpayers pay and the artist keeps the profit, sounds like a good deal, why criticise the government for giving you free money.

I think it comes back to the welfare mentality, "it is my right to expect free money" quickly becomes a way of life


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Its the arts that define societies / culture and the like not politicians.



The arts survive in concrete form, however ideas don't. Ideas are abstract.

Montaignes ideas survive because he wrote them down in a book, although it could be argued that the written word is art, the Essays could be argued to be at odds with the culture of the time. Equally it could be argued that Montaignes ideas lead to modern day enlightenment.

think about the ideas that are attempting to shape modern-day society, it is absolutely nothing to do with art and all to do with ideas.


----------



## explod

Art is all about ideas and free expression. It's why regimes like Hitler closed them down. Monash uni recently joined the fine arts up with design and construction.

If we want to tame the youth we need to go back to free education with arts at the forefront and they will create their own way.

When studying at uni myself (was in the police Force then and allowed part time) I did a semester on graffiti which was growing around Melbourne then. The offenders were seeking something to do and attention. Some of the works were very clever. I could write a bl..dy book on the effects of art. It was behind both the development of ancient Greece and Roman architecture.

And about the abstraction Wayne ole Pal, I'm currently doing work that is exploring the frequency of sight across the picture plane. It works by colour and after image. Keeps my head young.


----------



## basilio

How the presidential pardon is  (ab)used by  The Don. 

*Trump commutes sentence of former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich*
President also pardons former New York police commissioner Bernard Kerik and former San Francisco 49ers owner Edward DeBartolo 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ard-debartolo-jr-ex-san-francisco-49ers-owner

___________________________________________________________
One realises just how corrupt this creature is when you see the following response from Illanois Republicans to the decision.
I suspect the next post for  Rod Blagojevich is assistant Attorney General 
* ‘The Face of Public Corruption’: Illinois Republicans ‘Disappointed’ by Trump’s Pardon of Ex-Gov. Blagojevich *
By Mairead McArdle

February 18, 2020 4:23 PM

Illinois Republicans expressed Tuesday that they are “disappointed” with President Trump’s decision to commute the sentence of former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, who was removed from office and sentenced to prison on corruption charges over a decade ago.

“Blagojevich is the face of public corruption in Illinois, and not once has he shown any remorse for his clear and documented record of egregious crimes that undermined the trust placed in him by voters,” House Republicans from Illinois said in a statement.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news...inted-by-trumps-pardon-of-ex-gov-blagojevich/


----------



## basilio

Check this out. Worth reading just to see how this creature can say Black is White and get away with it.

*Trump Is Going to Cheat*
How should Democrats fight against a president who has no moral or legal compass?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/hes-going-cheat/606643/


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Check this out. Worth reading just to see how this creature can say Black is White and get away with it.
> 
> *Trump Is Going to Cheat*
> How should Democrats fight against a president who has no moral or legal compass?
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/hes-going-cheat/606643/





Comedy gold Bazz...zzz...zzz

You're a parody account, right?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Comedy gold Bazz...zzz...zzz
> 
> You're a parody account, right?




Indeed.. Wayne indeed.
I remember about 4500 posts ago  posing the question "What would Donald Trump have to do to have you turn on him ? "

I already knew the answer of course.

*Absolutely nothing.* There is absolutely nothing this creature can or will do that you will ever think is so shameful, so wrong, so unprincipled that you think he has gone too far.
Your  totally enthralled with him.
...............................................................
*Barr reportedly considers quitting as attorney general over Trump tweets*

_"I suspect the next post for Rod Blagojevich is assistant Attorney General"
_
I reckon I'm on the right track here.  There are stories going round that Barr is getting close to jumping the AG role. Trump will need the services of a* proven* totally corrupt guy who owes him big time.  

Perfect fit isn't it ? And when you the Big Cheese,  Son of God, Master of the Universe and the most stable genius on Earth  you need a neat rubber stamp to create Trumps Law.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-attorney-general-trump-tweet-quitting-report


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Indeed.. Wayne indeed.
> I remember about 4500 posts ago  posing the question "What would Donald Trump have to do to have you turn on him ? "
> 
> I already knew the answer of course.
> 
> *Absolutely nothing.* There is absolutely nothing this creature can or will do that you will ever think is so shameful, so wrong, so unprincipled that you think he has gone too far.
> Your  totally enthralled with him.
> ...............................................................
> *Barr reportedly considers quitting as attorney general over Trump tweets*
> 
> _"I suspect the next post for Rod Blagojevich is assistant Attorney General"
> _
> I reckon I'm on the right track here.  There are stories going round that Barr is getting close to jumping the AG role. Trump will need the services of a* proven* totally corrupt guy who owes him big time.
> 
> Perfect fit isn't it ? And when you the Big Cheese,  Son of God, Master of the Universe and the most stable genius on Earth  you need a neat rubber stamp to create Trumps Law.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-attorney-general-trump-tweet-quitting-report



It's actually a fair question.

Re Trump's tweets. Yes they are "unpresidential". And I have often remarked that yes he is a dick at times.

However I do understand the nuance of the reasons that he has taken this tac (tack, tak (sic)).

4d chess. Great spectator sport actually.

And when I look to his opponents, Bernie, fauxcahontas, and the other forgetable Marxists.

I'll take Trump, thanks.

And, there is other interesting stuff going on beneath the surface... Which you won't be pleased about. Awesome stuff.


----------



## basilio

Bernie Sanders *✔*  @SenSanders 

Today, Trump granted clemency to tax cheats, Wall Street crooks, billionaires, and corrupt government officials.
Meanwhile thousands of poor and working-class kids sit in jail for nonviolent drug convictions.
This is what a broken and racist criminal justice system looks like.


----------



## basilio

So why is this twisted,lying, poisonous heap of merde pardoning  the creme de la creme of upmarket  liars, tax cheats and brazenly  corrupt governors?

I reckon he is just warming up for the ultimate pardon.

*Yep he will pardon the current President of the United States because he  says he can.  And he'll do it before there is an sort of "trial".*

Check it out.
*Donald Trump may pardon himself, but should heed the lessons of the Ford-Nixon era*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-06/donald-trump-twitter-pardoning-powers-us-president/9839476
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06...-pardon-dinesh-dsouza-us-constitution/9831420


----------



## basilio

PS Aren't we lucky to have such a flawed but basically honest guy destroying the US constitution and Judicial system ?
My God what would happen if we had Hilary Clinton or Barack Obama or any of the  crazy commie Dems currently vying for office.

Eh Wayne ?  All good in the cess pit mate ?


----------



## basilio

Surprise, surprise , surprise ..
This will be an interesting court case. Lawyers aren't in the habit of making allegations like this without evidence.

*Trump offered to pardon Assange if he covered up Russian interference in US election, court told*
Wikileaks founder allegedly has evidence of visit from Republican congressman to Ecuadorian embassy on president’s behalf

Donald Trump offered to pardon Julian Assange if he covered up Russia’s interference in the 2016 US election, a court has heard.

The explosive claim – which could have profound consequences for Mr Trump’s re-election effort if proven true – emerged as Assange, 48, appeared at Westminster Magistrates’ Court ahead of a hearing next week about his possible extradition to the US.

Assange’s barrister highlighted evidence alleging former US Republican congressman Dana Rohrabacher had been to see Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy in August 2017, in the early days of Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian interference in the previous election.

Edward Fitzgerald QC said a statement from Assange’s lawyer Jennifer Robinson shows “Mr Rohrabacher going to see Mr Assange and saying, on instructions from the president, he was offering a pardon or some other way out, if Mr Assange ... said Russia had nothing to do with the DNC leaks”.

A series of emails embarrassing for the Democrats and the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign were hacked before being published by WikiLeaks in the run-up to the 2016 election.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...pardon-russia-us-election-court-a9345081.html


----------



## basilio

But then of course this creature has the  Balls of Steel that out Stalinizes , Stalin in terms of rewriting history. 
For Example.  Says it all..

*Trump defends Blagojevich despite incriminating tape*

*Trump *defended *Rod Blagojevich *in a tweet, saying the former Illinois governor did not sell a US Senate seat.






 Donald J. Trump *✔*  @realDonaldTrump 

Rod Blagojevich did not sell the Senate seat. He served 8 years in prison, with many remaining. He paid a big price. Another Comey and gang deal! Thank you to @LisaMarieBoothe who really “gets” what’s going on! @FoxNews
40.7K 
 4:46 AM - Feb 20, 2020

But Blagojevich, who was commuted by Trump yesterday, was rather infamously recorded trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by *Barack Obama *when he became president.

“I’ve got this thing and it’s fucxing golden,” Blagojevich was recorded saying. “I’m just not giving it up for fucxin’ nothing. I’m not gonna do it.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ut-las-vegas-debate-democrats-2020-trump-live


----------



## basilio

Interesting to learn more about ex-Congressman Dana Rohrabacher . Seems US security have had serious concerns about his support for Putin and Russia and made it clear they thought he had been compromised. 

_Rohrabacher was warned in 2012 in a secure room at the Capitol building by an agent from the FBI that Russian spies may have been trying to recruit him to act on Russia's behalf as an "agent of influence", after he met with a member of the Russian foreign ministry privately in Moscow.[55][129]_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher


----------



## basilio

I wonder how this fits into the picture ?
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/dana-rohrabacher-trump-russia-wikileaks-julian-assange/

*'Putin's favourite congressman' visited WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in London*
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...der-julian-assange-in-london-2017-8?r=US&IR=T


----------



## basilio

*Assange Upends Rohrabacher, Denies He Will Reveal DNC Emails Source*

https://www.rollcall.com/2017/10/12...cher-denies-he-will-reveal-dnc-emails-source/


----------



## basilio

Broadening ones internet readings.  This is a fascinating story.

_*The American Conservative* _website

*Pardon Me? Rep. Rohrabacher’s Curious Visit With Assange*






Julian Assange and U.S. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) Credit: Haak78/ShutterstockCreativeCommonsFlickr/GabeSkidmore
August 21, 2017

|
12:01 am

 Kelley Beaucar Vlahos 
Iconoclastic Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher confirmed that he had met Wednesday with Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, who still remains in his self-imposed five-year exile at the Ecuadorean Embassy in London, afraid he will be subject to U.S. arrest if he leaves.

The reason for the unusual meeting (Rohrabacher claims he is the first member of congress to meet with Assange), according to Rohrabacher’s office, was to glean information from Assange on the real DNC leaker with an eye toward assisting the president in fending off charges about Russian hacking in Washington, *and to help the WikiLeaks founder leave the embassy a free man. *

https://www.theamericanconservative...-rep-rohrabachers-curious-visit-with-assange/


----------



## basilio

https://www.ocweekly.com/house-spanks-dana-8507957/
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...acher-russia-timeline-20170804-htmlstory.html
https://patch.com/california/losalamitos/rohrabacher-discusses-dnc-emails-wikileaks-founder
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/0...ked-lawyer-at-center-of-russia-investigation/


----------



## moXJO

Jesus....
You working for the Russians now bas


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Jesus....
> You working for the Russians now bas



The Soviets, actually


----------



## SirRumpole

The US primaries process is completely baffling to me.

People on the same side tearing strips off each other. 

It's a real dog eat dog world in US politics it seems, but whoever wins it's just another dog.


----------



## IFocus

Draining the swamp ....LOL.





basilio said:


> But then of course this creature has the  Balls of Steel that out Stalinizes , Stalin in terms of rewriting history.
> For Example.  Says it all..
> 
> *Trump defends Blagojevich despite incriminating tape*
> 
> *Trump *defended *Rod Blagojevich *in a tweet, saying the former Illinois governor did not sell a US Senate seat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald J. Trump *✔*  @realDonaldTrump
> 
> Rod Blagojevich did not sell the Senate seat. He served 8 years in prison, with many remaining. He paid a big price. Another Comey and gang deal! Thank you to @LisaMarieBoothe who really “gets” what’s going on! @FoxNews
> 40.7K
> 4:46 AM - Feb 20, 2020
> 
> But Blagojevich, who was commuted by Trump yesterday, was rather infamously recorded trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by *Barack Obama *when he became president.
> 
> “I’ve got this thing and it’s fucxing golden,” Blagojevich was recorded saying. “I’m just not giving it up for fucxin’ nothing. I’m not gonna do it.”
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ut-las-vegas-debate-democrats-2020-trump-live


----------



## basilio

Trumps dirty tricks man who was covering up  for The Don is sentenced to 40 months jail for perjury and witness tampering.
The Don is now looking at overthrowing the sentence with a Presidential pardon.

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...ee-stone-exonerated-but-will-let-process-play


----------



## basilio

What the Judge said about Roger Stone and why he is taking an extended sabbatical.

* 'This is not just Roger being Roger': Stone gets 40 months – and a scolding from the judge *
Amy Berman Jackson tore into Trump’s longtime friend and reminded the court ‘he was prosecuted for covering up for the president’

 @laurenegambino 
Thu 20 Feb 2020 17.36 EST   Last modified on Thu 20 Feb 2020 18.03 EST

Shares
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Roger Stone leaves court after the judge sentenced him to 40 months in prison. Photograph: Erik S Lesser/EPA
Roger Stone, a longtime friend of Donald Trump and a self-styled dirty trickster of American politics, showed little emotion as he stood, squeezed between his defense team, at the front of the courtroom to await his sentence on Thursday.

“Unsurprisingly, I have a lot to say,” the federal district court judge Amy Berman Jackson began.

She was aware, of course, of the extraordinary public interest surrounding this case: the letters and calls to the chamber, the op-eds in every major newspaper, the hours of punditry on cable news, and, perhaps most remarkable of all, the stream of tweets from the president of the United States.

“The only people who think this is easy [are] the people who don’t have to make the decision,” she lamented from the bench.

Stone’s presence in the courtroom on Thursday had nothing to do with his political views or personal association. He would not be sentenced, Jackson said, “for who his friends are or who his enemies are”.
*
The case, she said, “arose because Roger Stone characteristically inserted himself smack in the middle of one of the most incendiary issues of the day”. At issue, she explained, is only what he has been convicted of: attempting to sabotage a congressional investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

“He was not prosecuted for standing up for the president,” she said. “He was prosecuted for covering up for the president.”


She laced into the defense offered by Stone’s attorneys in response to his conviction on charges that he lied to congressional investigators and attempted to block the testimony of a witness, which she said amounted to: “‘So what?’”

“Of all the circumstances in this case, that may be the most pernicious,” Jackson said, in comments that quickly resonated far beyond the E Barrett Prettyman courthouse in Washington. “The truth still exists, the truth still matters.”*
Stone stood unflinching, hands clasped in front of him, as she continued to excoriate him.

“Roger Stone’s insistence that it doesn’t … his belligerence, his pride in his own lies, are a threat to our most fundamental institutions, to the very foundation of our democracy,” she said emphatically.

The judge forcefully rejected claims by Stone and his supporters that law enforcement was carrying out a political vendetta against the president by prosecuting his longtime friend.

“There was nothing unfair, phoney, or disgraceful about the investigation or the prosecution,” she said.

The defendant lied about a matter of great national and international significance. This is not campaign hi-jinks

She accepted that Stone had cultivated a reputation as an “agent provocateur” who is belligerent and hyperbolic – noting humorously that these are descriptions of him from “people who wrote [to the court] on his behalf”.

“The problem is that nothing about this case was a joke. It wasn’t funny, it wasn’t a stunt,” she said, adding: “The defendant lied about a matter of great national and international significance. This is not campaign hi-jinks. This is not just Roger being Roger.”

The prosecution team had originally recommended a sentence of seven to nine years, which Trump decried earlier this month as “horrible and unfair”. Almost immediately, William Barr, the attorney general, intervened and overruled the prosecutors, recommending a far more lenient sentence. Jackson called the what the justice department did “unprecedented”.

In what appeared to be a reference to the president’s running Twitter commentary on the case, Jackson said: “The court cannot be influenced by those comments. They were entirely inappropriate.”

Nevertheless, she believed the initial recommendation was unduly punitive. Probation, however, would not fit the gravity of the crimes committed, she said.

In the end, she arrived at her decision: Stone would be sentenced to 40 months in prison. But Stone would not be imprisoned until the judge rules on a motion brought by his defense team requesting a new trial.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/20/roger-stone-trial-40-months-sentence


----------



## basilio

*The Cult of the Personality*

A *cult of personality*, or *cult of the leader*,[1] arises when a country's regime – or, more rarely, an individual – uses the techniques of mass media, propaganda, the big lie, spectacle, the arts, patriotism, and government-organized demonstrations and rallies to create an idealized, heroic, and worshipful image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. A cult of personality is similar to apotheosis, except that it is established by modern social engineering techniques, usually by the state or the party in one-party states and dominant-party states. It is often seen in totalitarian or authoritarian countries. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

This is exemplified by the latest effort by Donald Trump to create a State apparatus  staffed solely with Trump loyalists.

*Trump Aide John Kelly Fired Is Back and ‘Empowered’ to Lead Purge of Never Trumpers*


A formerly fired Trump aide is back in the White House and “empowered” to identify and root out Never Trumpers (“bad people” and “Deep State” operatives), Axios reported on Friday. *John McEntee*, 29, is now heading the Office of Presidential Personnel and will have the authority to keep perceived anti-Trump elements from being promoted across the federal government, instead “shifting them around agencies.”

Per the report:
_

Trump has empowered McEntee — whom he considers an absolute loyalist — to purge the “bad people” and “Deep State.”


McEntee told staff that those identified as anti-Trump will no longer get promotions by shifting them around agencies.


McEntee was once fired by former White House chief of staff *John Kelly* amid the cloud of a security concern then-reported as a financial crime investigation._

It was suggested that the “most dramatic changes” will have to wait until after the 2020 election–if President *Donald Trump* wins, of course. McEntee’s official return to the White House fold was reported last week.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...nd-empowered-to-lead-purge-of-never-trumpers/


----------



## Knobby22

Nothing will hold Trump back if he wins this election. He will do what he wants.

The Republicans are dreaming if they think they can control him. He won't need them.

It will be interesting.


----------



## IFocus

This guy is a Republican worth a read from the other side he doesn't hold back on the issues or cherry pick the numbers not that I agree with his solutions or definitions but interesting that he sees how stark the problems are for much of the US.

*Why Americans Want Socialism*

*As I write this, a self-proclaimed “democratic socialist” is leading the race for one of our major parties’ presidential nomination. The fact that so many Americans (especially young Americans) support Bernie Sanders ought to tell us something. A Quinnipiac poll out this week showed Senator Sanders with 54% support among Democrats age 18–34. Meanwhile, 50% of adults under 38 told the Harris Poll last year that they would “prefer living in a socialist country.”

https://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/why-americans-want-socialism*


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> This guy is a Republican worth a read from the other side he doesn't hold back on the issues or cherry pick the numbers not that I agree with his solutions or definitions but interesting that he sees how stark the problems are for much of the US.
> 
> *Why Americans Want Socialism*
> 
> *As I write this, a self-proclaimed “democratic socialist” is leading the race for one of our major parties’ presidential nomination. The fact that so many Americans (especially young Americans) support Bernie Sanders ought to tell us something. A Quinnipiac poll out this week showed Senator Sanders with 54% support among Democrats age 18–34. Meanwhile, 50% of adults under 38 told the Harris Poll last year that they would “prefer living in a socialist country.”
> 
> https://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/why-americans-want-socialism*




I read that whole article and found it an excellent analysis of the American situation. Totally spot on.
The facts are there.  The very large majority of the population is struggling to stay afloat while a very small sector are making out like bandits.

I may have posted this  previously but there is an excellent analysis of income distribution in the US which shows that from 1945 till roughly 1975 incomes across the broad population rose steadily and in fact  created a large   relatively secure working class and middle class.

However since the mid eighties all the increase in wealth have gone to the rich and super rich. The working  class and middle class have been squeezed till the pips  squeak.  That is the problem  Maudlin  recognises  and says needs to be addressed.

https://equitablegrowth.org/the-dis...-states-and-implications-for-a-net-worth-tax/


----------



## moXJO

Good take.

I think the massive changes in technology, employment, climate, media  etc has given people a scare. People want change but they don't know exactly what the want. The illusion of safety has gone now that media has changed.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> I read that whole article and found it an excellent analysis of the American situation. Totally spot on.
> The facts are there.  The very large majority of the population is struggling to stay afloat while a very small sector are making out like bandits.
> 
> I may have posted this  previously but there is an excellent analysis of income distribution in the US which shows that from 1945 till roughly 1975 incomes across the broad population rose steadily and in fact  created a large   relatively secure working class and middle class.
> 
> However since the mid eighties all the increase in wealth have gone to the rich and super rich. The working  class and middle class have been squeezed till the pips  squeak.  That is the problem  Maudlin  recognises  and says needs to be addressed.
> 
> https://equitablegrowth.org/the-dis...-states-and-implications-for-a-net-worth-tax/
> 
> View attachment 100672



That graph finishes at 2016, you don't have a graph that includes anything more recent?


----------



## basilio

What has happened to wealth distribution in the US under the Trump administration ?
There is an analysis on the web. It is presented as a table but doesn't  copy well.
_
Using Federal Reserve data, the Washington Center for Equitable Growth reported in August 2019 that: "Looking at the cumulative growth of wealth disaggregated by group, we see that the bottom 50 percent of wealth owners experienced no net wealth growth since 1989. At the other end of the spectrum, the top 1 percent have seen their wealth grow by almost 300 percent since 1989. Although cumulative wealth growth was relatively similar among all wealth groups through the 1990s, the top 1 percent and bottom 50 percent diverged around 2000."[42]_

*Changes during Trump Administration*
The Federal Reserve publishes information on the distribution of household wealth by quarter going back to 1989. From Q4 2016 (the end of the Obama Administration) to Q3 2019, nominal household net worth in total increased by $15.84 trillion or about 17%, driven primarily by stock market gains. 

Since the bottom 50% of U.S. households measured by net worth have little if any stock market exposure (neither directly nor indirectly through 401k plans[44]), that group received $0.59 trillion of that gain, about 4% (i.e., 0.59/15.84). The 90-99th percentile received 35% of the gain, the top 1% received 34% and the 50th-90th percentile received 28%. The following table summarizes the Fed data:[6]

*Household Net Worth * *90th to 99th * *Top 1% * *50th to 90th   * *Bottom 50%   * *Total *
Q4 2016 ($ trillions) 34.59                 29.18             26.53            1.08            91.38
Q3 2019 ($ trillions) 40.12                 34.53            30.90             1.67           107.22
Increase ($ trillions)   5.53                   5.35              4.37              0.59             15.84
% Increase                 16%                   18%             17%             55%               17%
Share of Increase (Increase/Total Increase) 35% 34% 28%          4%                             100%
(Intentionally left blank)

Share of Net Worth Q4 2016 37.9% 31.9% 29.0% 1.2% 100%
Share of Net Worth Q3 2019 37.4% 32.2% 28.8% 1.6% 100%
Change in Share -0.43% +0.27% -0.21% +0.38% 0.0% 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States


----------



## basilio

Came across a clip from Magician Penn (from Penna and Teller) discussing Donald Trump as possible President in Aug 2016. He was on The Apprentice - and he liked Donald more than anyone else in the show..

Nothing we havn't seen in spades but illuminating.


----------



## basilio

What  would a second Trump term as President look like ?

Rick Wilson was a Republician strategist who is now trying to save America from Trump. The first 6 minutes of this interview makes it clear how dangerous a totally  unrestrained Donald Trump will be to the US. And he doesn't mince his words. 

Learn something new.


----------



## Knobby22

In twenty years there will be books and movies about this....especially if Trump catches the virus. It could be like the story of Julius Ceaser.
I copied this from another thread.

_As per of his war on science. Trump had cut the US Centre for Disease Control by 9% and just this month proposed slashing it by a further 16%.
He shut down the US Complex Crisis fund.

There only three test kits in all of America to test for the virus. They have only tested 426 people! They have no idea how many Americans have the virus!!! It could be thousands already. _


----------



## sptrawler

GM may have shut down its RHD manufacturing, but it is ramping up its LHD manufacturing, at home.

https://www.businessinsider.com/gen...ers-at-2-michigan-factories-2020-2/?r=AU&IR=T


----------



## basilio

I don't think anyone has taken the appointment of Mike Pence seriously as spokesperson for the current administrations views on the Corona virus.  But its still worth understanding just how determinedly anti science this admin is. If one isn't concerned  about the picture of Mike Pence leading a meeting in prayer as  a response to the crisis maybe this story will add more weight to teh question.

* Mike Pence shouldn't lead the coronavirus taskforce. He can't be trusted *
Lucky Tran
Putting Mike Pence in charge is proof that the White House wants to protect its political line, not protect Americans

... But letting officials speak freely isn’t the root cause of their problems; it’s that the Trump administration is elevating the wrong representatives, who don’t understand what they’re talking about.

This isn’t the first time the White House has restricted the speech of public health experts. *In 2017, the administration prohibited CDC officials from using a list of seven words – including “evidence-based” and “science-based” – in official documents. Under these conditions, it’s impossible for scientists to do their work serving the public to the best of their abilities. During a public health crisis, any censorship could be catastrophic.*

Pence’s appointment follows a track record of the administration prioritizing politics over scientific expertise. Trump has appointed fossil fuel lobbyists to lead the EPA, climate deniers to head up Nasa and the Council on Environmental Quality, Dow executives to USDA leadership, and a chemical industry insider to run the EPA’s toxic chemicals program. These appointments have eroded public trust and shifted the priorities of these agencies from saving lives to special interests.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/03/trump-coronavirus-plan-pence-politics

___________________________

Comments are more fun

_Mikes view is its Gods will. No need for science or prevention. Same with climate change. It also doesnt cost much until your economy collapses.

On the contrary, I think that Mike Pence is one of the best people to tackle this. Simple actions like ensuring that men and women aren't in the same room together could greatly reduce the spread of the virus,
_
..............................................
“_[Trump] made the choice of putting someone absolutely not up to the task to this crucial position 

“It endangers us all. This isn’t a Republican or Democratic issue – we have the potential for [a coronavirus] outbreak in the US, and we needed to rise above the partisan fray.

”It’s like putting an arsonist in charge of the fire department, a bank robber in charge of the US Mint.”

*Gregg Gonsalves, assistant professor of epidemiology at Yale University*._


----------



## bellenuit

_From the NY Times. This is from a Republican Appointed Judge_

*Judge Calls Barr’s Handling of Mueller Report ‘Distorted’ and ‘Misleading’*


The judge said the attorney general lacked credibility on the matter and said he would review the report to decide whether to make its redacted portions public.

*WASHINGTON — A federal judge on Thursday sharply criticized Attorney General William P. Barr’s handling of the report by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, saying that Mr. Barr put forward a “distorted” and “misleading” account of its findings and lacked credibility on the topic.

Mr. Barr could not be trusted, Judge Reggie B. Walton said, citing “inconsistencies” between the attorney general’s statements about the report when it was secret and its actual contents that turned out to be more damaging to President Trump. Mr. Barr’s “lack of candor” called into question his “credibility and, in turn, the department’s” assurances to the court, Judge Walton said.

The judge ordered the Justice Department to privately show him the portions of the report that were censored in the publicly released version so he could independently verify the justifications for those redactions. The ruling came in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit seeking a full-text version of the report.

Read Judge Walton’s ruling.

The differences between the report and Mr. Barr’s description of it “cause the court to seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt to influence public discourse about the Mueller report in favor of President Trump despite certain findings in the redacted version of the Mueller report to the contrary,” wrote Judge Walton, an appointee of President George W. Bush.

widely criticized. Still, it was striking to see a Republican-appointed federal judge scathingly dissect Mr. Barr’s conduct in a formal judicial ruling and declare that the sitting attorney general had so deceived the American people that he could not trust assertions made by a Justice Department under Mr. Barr’s control.



You have 5 free articles remaining.
Subscribe to The Times

A department spokeswoman had no immediate comment. The lawsuit centers on Freedom of Information requests by the Electronic Privacy Information Center and by Jason Leopold, a BuzzFeed News reporter.


Judge Walton’s decision focuses on the period last spring between the delivery of the Mueller report to the attorney general, his publicly issued summary of it two days later that drew widespread condemnation and the release of the report itself a month later that revealed several discrepancies between the documents.

Among those Judge Walton cited: Mr. Barr’s obfuscation about the scope of the links that investigators found between the Trump campaign and Russia, and how the report documented numerous episodes that appear to meet the criteria for obstruction of justice, echoing the complaints of many critics of Mr. Barr’s summary of the report.




Life Isn’t Like the Movies (Even if You Write the Movies)



Jewish Women Move Into a Male Domain: Ritual Circumcision



This Was Molly Seidel’s First Marathon. Her Next Will Be at the Olympics.

The attorney general issued an initial four-page letter in March 2019 — two days after receiving the 381-page Mueller report — that purported to summarize its principal conclusions. But within days, Mr. Mueller sent letters to Mr. Barr protesting that he had distorted its findings and asking him to swiftly release the report’s own summaries. Instead, Mr. Barr made the report public only weeks later, after a fuller review to black out sensitive material.

Among the issues Judge Walton flagged: Mr. Barr declared that the special counsel had not found that the Trump campaign had conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election, and left it at that.

But while Mr. Mueller did conclude that he found insufficient evidence to charge any Trump associates with conspiring with the Russians, Mr. Barr omitted that the special counsel had identified multiple contacts between Trump campaign officials and people with ties to the Russian government and that the campaign expected to benefit from Moscow’s interference.

Judge Walton also wrote that the special counsel “only concluded” that the investigation did not establish that the contacts rose to “coordination” because Mr. Mueller interpreted that term narrowly requiring, in the report’s words, agreement that is “more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other’s actions or interests.”

In addition, Mr. Barr told the public in March that Mr. Mueller had made no decision about whether Mr. Trump obstructed justice, then pronounced Mr. Trump cleared of those suspicions.

But Mr. Barr “failed to disclose to the American public,” Judge Walton wrote, that Mr. Mueller had explained that it would be inappropriate to make a judgment while the president was still in office about whether he committed obstruction crimes. The report also said that if the evidence had cleared Mr. Trump, Mr. Mueller would have said so, but he was unable to exonerate him.

“The speed by which Attorney General Barr released to the public the summary of Special Counsel Mueller’s principal conclusions, coupled with the fact that Attorney General Barr failed to provide a thorough representation of the findings set forth in the Mueller report, causes the court to question whether Attorney General Barr’s intent was to create a one-sided narrative about the Mueller report — a narrative that is clearly in some respects substantively at odds with the redacted version of the Mueller report,” Judge Walton wrote.

in public comments made by Mr. Barr hours before he released the redacted version of the report in April.

Because of that pattern, Judge Walton wrote, he could not look away from the fact that the portions of the Mueller report that the Justice Department was withholding in the Freedom of Information Act case mirrored the deletions made under Mr. Barr’s guidance in the version of the report released in April.

That echoing, he wrote, causes “the court to question whether the redactions are self-serving and were made to support, or at the very least to not undermine, Attorney General Barr’s public statements and whether the department engaged in post-hoc rationalization to justify Attorney General Barr’s positions.”

Appointed to the Federal District Court bench in Washington in 2001, Judge Walton has presided over a variety of high-profile cases, including the perjury trial of the former baseball pitcher Roger Clemens and the trial of I. Lewis Libby Jr., the onetime chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney who was convicted of lying in connection with the leak of the identity of a C.I.A. operative. Mr. Trump pardoned Mr. Libby in 2018.

A former prosecutor who handled drug and street crime cases, Judge Walton is known for handing down tough sentences and for being careful and methodical. He also once broke up a street brawlnear the courthouse.

The Mueller ruling was not the first time that Judge Walton had criticized the actions of the Barr Justice Department. Last month, he unsealed the transcript of a September closed-door meeting with prosecutors about whether and when the department was going to charge Andrew G. McCabe, the former acting F.B.I. director whom Mr. Trump has vilified for his role in the Russia case, in connection with a leak investigation.

Noting in that September hearing that prosecutors had said to him weeks earlier that a decision about charging Mr. McCabe could come “literally within days,” Judge Walton chastised them for stringing along Mr. McCabe and noted the president’s comments about Mr. McCabe with disapproval, saying they created the appearance of a “banana republic.”

announcing last month that he would not be charged. Hours later, Judge Walton unsealed the transcript of the closed September hearing, which was part of a FOIA lawsuit filed by the liberal watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

*


----------



## basilio

Could Republicians elect a Democrat President ? 
Perhaps yes - if he's they right guy..  In fact these are the people who turned up to vote for Biden in the Super  Tuesday Primaries. 
Check it out

*‘Never Trump’ Republicans Will Support Biden, not Sanders*
Right-of-center voters are open to voting for a moderate Democrat. They have been helping one in the primaries.

... many of Mr. Biden’s college-educated, suburban supporters are right-leaning independents or moderate Republicans who supported candidates like John McCain and Mitt Romney. They don’t want to re-elect Donald Trump. And they’re willing to cross over to vote for a Democrat — a moderate and mainstream Democrat.

These voters might not identify with the “Never Trump” group of conservatives who vociferously oppose the president. But in practice, that’s who they are. They often voted for Republicans in the past and are now firmly anti-Trump. These voters can create winning margins for Democrats in swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Arizona and North Carolina in the general election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/opinion/joe-biden-never-trump.html


----------



## sptrawler

Earlier Mr Trump said his administration would ask Congress to pass payroll tax relief in response to the public health and economic turmoil.

He also said he was seeking help for hourly-wage workers to ensure they are "not going to miss a paycheque" and "don't get penalised for something that's not their fault".


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## basilio

I don't think many people are impressed with Donald Trumps approach to tackling the Corona Virus. 
Some telling points in this analysis.

* Donald Trump is the very worst person to handle the coronavirus crisis *
The president responded to the pandemic with denial and blaming foreigners. His incompetence and selfishness will be lethal

... The CDC director, Robert Redfield, an evangelical conservative with no previous experience in managing a large state agency, revealed how out of touch the administration was with the reality on the ground on Wednesday.

When asked by the House oversight committee why the US was not providing drive-through tests, as have been introduced elsewhere – he replied: “We’re trying to maintain the relationship between individuals and their healthcare providers.”

Jim Cooper, a Tennessee Democrat pointed out to him that most Americans do not have a regular doctor, and certainly do not see a physician often enough to have a “relationship”. When they get seriously ill, most head for the emergency room of the country’s overstrained hospitals.

The lack of tests means that the country is stumbling blindfolded into the worst health crisis in decades. Despite warnings from his own experts, the president reportedly clings to the relatively low number of confirmed cases as a sign that the US might be spared the worst.

When the country is struck by the inevitable wave of sickness and deaths, sweeping aside Trump’s reassurances, it is hard to predict how he will react.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/donald-trump-coronavirus-crisis


----------



## bellenuit

Oh that it were true.....

*The Trump Presidency Is Over*

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...pNeyYaLmv3ddSaqUGGy9wG2QXOMbOe4xWc2ogAg2J7ZZQ


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> Oh that it were true.....
> 
> *The Trump Presidency Is Over*
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...pNeyYaLmv3ddSaqUGGy9wG2QXOMbOe4xWc2ogAg2J7ZZQ




Hell that's daming


----------



## Knobby22

I stated about a year ago that I expected the Republicans to remove Trump given the chance with the impeachment.
Wayne said no way. He was right.

I never thought the Republicans would betray their principles to such an extent for power and it looks like they will lose anyway.


----------



## moXJO

The only thing getting rid of trump is if the Bernie bros vote Biden. That's it.


----------



## IFocus

Biden .........swapping one criminal for another, he has said he would extend health care.


----------



## bellenuit

*We need to quarantine Donald Trump: He's confused, ignorant and afraid*

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/14/we...rVYo7uJYx_DpsgpXUu81Kwfl5hEePKL95ULrzdOC14cf4


----------



## basilio

What is happening with the Trump administration today . Note the increase in people from Mars a Logo infected with the COVID 19 virus.
Also *The Trump administration blocked states from using Medicaid to expand medical services as part the response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
*
https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2020/03/13/day-1149/

Also worth noting the international outrage at the reported efforts of Donald Trump to buy a German companies promising corona vaccine as long as they had exclusive US rights.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-working-on-coronavirus-vaccine-idUSKBN2120IV
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...entists-for-coronavirus-cure-2020-3?r=US&IR=T
https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/heal...ve-access-to-german-covid-19-vaccine-c-747312


----------



## wayneL

The narrative still seems to be about the incompetence of Trump. I don't think the competency of anyone else in the frame for the presidency is any better to be honest.

I honestly believe that we as a society will have to move past this sort of politics.

It is truly unfortunate that we have an election this year, because the requisite politicking will necessarily obfuscate what is actually going on.

Realise that we are in this together


----------



## basilio

The question Wayne, is how well is the President of the United States responding to the  disaster that is unfolding with the  CORVID19 virus. There is only one person in that seat at the moment. Whatever we think of anyone else is irrelevant.

So the question remains : How well is the Trump administration responding to this crisis ?


----------



## basilio

Perhaps we should check out The Dons latest Press Conference on how things are tracking with the Corona Virus ?

_During a press briefing at the White House on Sunday evening, Trump again appeared to downplay the threat of the novel coronavirus. “Relax, we’re doing great,” he said, during short, meandering comments that focused mostly on celebrating a decision by the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates. “It all will pass.”

The president’s remarks stood in marked contrast to his lead infectious diseases expert, Dr Anthony Fauci, who used the same conference to warn: “The worst is ahead for us”, describing the crisis as reaching a “very, very critical point now”. Earlier in the day Dr Fauci had declined to rule out a “national lockdown” of bars and restaurants as he urged more aggressive measures, similar to those in Europe and elsewhere, to contain the virus.
_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-relax-were-doing-great-expert-worst-to-come


----------



## basilio

Interesting observation of how Mike Pence is handling his role with the CORVID 19 crisis.

*Strangely competent Mike Pence finds his 9/11 moment in coronavirus crisis *
Critics flagged up his anti-science background and questionable record as governor but the vice-president has won praise as the Covid-19 taskforce head
*David Smith in Washington*

* @smithinamerica  *

*  Sat 21 Mar 2020 03.00 EDT   Last modified on Sat 21 Mar 2020 03.01 EDT *

His past record made him seem an odd choice. He remains as servile to Donald Trump as ever. But Mike Pence, the US vice-president, is said to be having “a good war” against the coronavirus outbreak.

...Pence, 60, earned early plaudits for his cool head and assured performances in the cacophony of the White House briefing room – probably benefiting from comparison with his volatile boss and two divisive press secretaries. Indeed, this week Trump has reasserted himself as the face of the administration as if to ensure Pence does not claim too much of the limelight.

“I think he’s been very helpful in moderating the president’s salesman instinct,” said Michael D’Antonio, co-author of The Shadow President: The Truth About Mike Pence. “The president loves to hype whatever he’s offering, in this case the message that everything is fine. Pence has done a better job than I expected of honouring the science.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/21/mike-pence-coronavirus-crisis


----------



## Knobby22

Still reckon the Republicans might replace Trump with Pence.


----------



## dutchie

I think Trump needs to postpone the 2020 election until the China Virus has been exterminated.


----------



## chiff

Knobby22 said:


> Still reckon the Republicans might replace Trump with Pence.



Has that got something to with 'a bad penny always turns up'


----------



## IFocus

Has Trump really lost it or is he totally disconnected?


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> I think Trump needs to postpone the 2020 election until the China Virus has been exterminated.



I am sure he will try to do this, ......for the sake of the people of course.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> Has Trump really lost it or is he totally disconnected?



He was believing what he saw on Fox that the virus was inconsequential and when last week  they suddenly changed their tune he became lost. 

He has left the USA totally unprepared. Effectively shut down/sacked  the pandemic section of government last year, didn't order any equipment (unlike Australia) and now can't handle the reality of being responsible for at least 2 million dead Americans over the next 3 months.

Wrong man at the wrong time.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> He was believing what he saw on Fox that the virus was inconsequential and when last week  they suddenly changed their tune he became lost.
> 
> He has left the USA totally unprepared. Effectively shut down/sacked  the pandemic section of government last year, didn't order any equipment (unlike Australia) and now can't handle the reality of being responsible for at least 2 million dead Americans over the next 3 months.
> 
> Wrong man at the wrong time.




Yes Greek tragedy in the making US style.


----------



## bellenuit

Knobby22 said:


> Still reckon the Republicans might replace Trump with Pence.




Pence may be a bit better, but unless the elections are deferred, which is quite possible with this administration (acknowledging I don't know the legality of doing so), replacing Trump within the next month may already be too late to stop the spread of the virus and mounting deaths. Pence, for the few months he would be in power, would still cop a lot of the blame. I would think they will wait until the last moment and then replace him with Pence, so that almost all the blame is attributed to Trump and Pence can go to the election with some clean air. Although Pence as VP and leading the COVID-19 response is equally as culpable as Trump, the GOP and FOX spin doctors will try and suggest that internally Pence opposed Trump's actions, so is not to blame.


----------



## satanoperca

Everyone who has contributed to this thread, firstly, if you have friends or family in the USA, my consolidation, but for the sack of humanity, this is a great situation.

We get to have an A/B test environment, China Lockdown/ USA no lockdown

Donald, goes it alone, opens the borders, lets the virus spread, no lock down, will he show that this approach is better than f---king the countries entire economy due to the loss of 1-2% of the elderly population (that would be dead in 1-10 years anyway).

Great stuff.


----------



## macca

I think Trump could be weighing up world depression or sick people dying against a much healthier financial USA.

Not at all compassionate but will less people die in the long run..............

Some medicos in the USA are saying best to catch it while fit and healthy rather than when worn to a frazzle, expose now, build immunity, carry on...............

I am wondering if we will hear of large short positions taken soon after the bug escaped in countries who may have been aware that this bug existed and shorted the market


----------



## IFocus

My take on it will be it will vary state to state depending on the urgency of actions taken state by state.

One thing about it is the US is very good at producing stats so we will get a clear picture of how it unfolds.

Pundits are predicting the poor will pay a high cost maybe Trumps betting they don't vote for him.

To be honest I don't think he is that evil, but then who knows I guess we will have to wait for the book to come out.

So far most negative evaluations of Trump's leadership seem to be proving correct, God help America.

BTW its all Hillary's fault.


----------



## Knobby22

satanoperca said:


> Everyone who has contributed to this thread, firstly, if you have friends or family in the USA, my consolidation, but for the sack of humanity, this is a great situation.
> 
> We get to have an A/B test environment, China Lockdown/ USA no lockdown
> 
> Donald, goes it alone, opens the borders, lets the virus spread, no lock down, will he show that this approach is better than f---king the countries entire economy due to the loss of 1-2% of the elderly population (that would be dead in 1-10 years anyway).
> 
> Great stuff.



And yet South Korea and Japan has shown you can win the battle without killing a big chunk of your population and get the economy back quite quickly.


----------



## satanoperca

Have they, show me some some facts, well you might be able to, today, but this is early days, how about in a months time?
"get the economy back quite quickly", sorry just re-read your comments, Japan has done a great job about their economy.


----------



## Knobby22

Yes, let's see what you think in a months time.
Fox and the president are developing their excuses and blame sharing.


----------



## moXJO

That's is what trump is currently saying:

"We should never be reliant on a foreign country for the means of our own survival. I think we’ve learned a lot. This crisis has underscored just how critical it is to have strong borders and a robust manufacturing sector. For three years, we’ve embarked on a great national project to secure our immigration system and bring back our manufacturing jobs. We’ve brought back many jobs, record numbers of jobs, and this really shows, this experience shows how important borders are. Without borders, you don’t have a nation."

Something like 90% or high of antibiotics made come from outside the US. He went on to mention that the US needs to be self reliant. 
All these points I would be happy for Australia to undertake even though I doubt it's possible for us to do. 

But nooo globalization good for the dems. They cashed in so far.


----------



## Knobby22

The dems? Pulling a long bow. Gee all those Dems running companies and moving the factories overseas. If only the Republicans had of been running the country and owning those companies.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> He was believing what he saw on Fox that the virus was inconsequential and when last week  they suddenly changed their tune he became lost.
> 
> He has left the USA totally unprepared. Effectively shut down/sacked  the pandemic section of government last year, didn't order any equipment (unlike Australia) and now can't handle the reality of being responsible for at least 2 million dead Americans over the next 3 months.
> 
> Wrong man at the wrong time.



Obviously the U.S general public don't agree with you Knobby, he has just achieved his highest popularity rating 44%. Obviously what is being broadcast here is different to the U.S, or people are just putting their own spin on it.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...ing-coronavirus-pandemic-20200326-p54e0e.html
From the article:
_US President Donald Trump's approval ratings have hit an all-time high during the coronavirus crisis, with a majority of Americans saying they approve of his handling of the pandemic.

The development - evident across a range of recent polls - has astounded Trump's critics who expected the American public to judge him harshly for his often misleading and erratic response to the outbreak.
The country's two most closely-watched polling aggregators both show Trump recording his best approval ratings since he took office. RealClearPolitics puts him at 46.3 per cent approval and Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight at 44.6 per cent._


----------



## Knobby22

What do you think?


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> What do you think?



As a person, he isn't my cup of tea, but his policy of forcing multinationals to manufacture back in the U.S i like a lot.
It is something Australia needs to follow, then we wouldn't be in the current predicament, of not having test kits, ventilators, safety respirators and a lot of other things that we now have to import.
The thing with a P.M or a President, he isn't there to be liked, he should be there to push agenda's that strengthen the Country for the people, like him or hate him he has reduced unemployment to levels never seen before.
Also going by his popularity, it seems the press is the only ones not happy with him.
Take Bob Hawke for example, a lot of people didn't like the way he screwed the pilots, the wages accord or the way he left Hazel.
But he and Keating fixed Australia's unemployment  and inflation problem and history judges him positively.


----------



## Knobby22

But they haven't got anywhere near enough ventilators, they can't buy them from overseas and are desperately trying to build them from scratch. The New York Mayor was scathing when he got a mere 400.

In contrast, Australia has imported double our original number of ventilators. Way more testing kits and are developing a special test kit that will be released soon.
Even the Democrats Senator yesterday who has all the symptoms is not to be tested as they have not enough test kits in the USA.

It's interesting hearing your views as I begin to understand how they think he is doing a good job and Australia is doing a bad job.
It's amazing. It's like magical thinking. Maybe he can keep the death statistics off the records by continuing to not test. Are you sure your not watching Fox?


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> The dems? Pulling a long bow. Gee all those Dems running companies and moving the factories overseas. If only the Republicans had of been running the country and owning those companies.



Obama "Manufacturing will not return to the US"
Wasn't there mention of trump needing a magic wand.
Last time I checked Dems were still up Soros ass.

At least Trump attempted it.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> But they haven't got anywhere near enough ventilators, they can't buy them from overseas and are desperately trying to build them from scratch. The New York Mayor was scathing when he got a mere 400.
> 
> In contrast, Australia has imported double our original number of ventilators. Way more testing kits and are developing a special test kit that will be released soon.
> Even the Democrats Senator yesterday who has all the symptoms is not to be tested as they have not enough test kits in the USA.
> 
> It's interesting hearing your views as I begin to understand how they think he is doing a good job.
> It's amazing. It's like magical thinking. Maybe he can keep the death statistics off the records by continuing to not test.



Your first sentence is exactly why Trump is liked, they used to manufacture all that stuff, but the multi nationals sent it all to cheap labour Countries, to increase profits. You should read up on the Lima agreement of the 1970's
If it is a prerequisite for you to like a persons personality and traits, before voting for them, that is fine.
With me, it is more about what they plan to do, or not do and how it will effect me, my family, my grandkids and the Country as a whole.
The last thing I look at is the persons appearance, characteristics or personality.
It is like in a business, if you are the boss, you aren't there to be everyone's friend. The same with a coach of a football team, if the coach is one of the boys, they seldom achieve much success.
IMO too many politicians in recent history, have been more about how they look or perform on T.V, than sorting out structural problems in Australia's economy.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Knobby22

No worries.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump has been spruiking the idea that by Easter we could expected crowded churches praising  the Resurrection of the Great American Dream led by the Son of God himself.

I reckon this story goes to the heart of why Donald Trump has no place as a leader. 

* No greater love hath Trump than to lay down your life for his re-election *
Richard Wolffe
Only a once-in-a-century leader has the guts to say out loud what the worst among us are really thinking: everyone other than me is expendable

_Donald Trump isn’t much of a doctor or scientist. He isn’t much of a diplomat or general. His leadership skills match his business skills. There’s a reason his companies went bankrupt so many times.

But he might just be a pioneer with this idea of letting people die for the sake of the country. Only a once-in-a-century leader has the guts to say out loud what the worst among us are really thinking: everyone other than me is expendable.

Anyone older is past it, for sure. The younger ones we can easily afford to lose: they don’t actually pay for anything. The smarter ones? Totally annoying. The dumber ones: what’s even the point?

The sick are a real drain on us, financially and emotionally. The poor won’t really do much in the long run, no matter how hard we try. The wealthy just keep shoving it in your face. Foreigners aren’t like us at all. And our neighbors are frankly a bit too close for comfort.

So when you add it all up, it’s only sensible that we ask everyone else to sacrifice themselves for us. For the sake of the nation and all that’s good, please just go, so that the rest of us – not counting the undesirables – can get back to our old lives.
_
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ald-trump-coronavirus-response-richard-wolffe


----------



## IFocus

Trump dismantled the very department that was to respond to this crisis.

Korea kept theirs.

Maybe the psychology of the US is they like a good old blood bath which they are going to get.

Or maybe they are so self centred AKA "the jack system" as long as its the "other guy" or "my gun is my right" there is no problem.

Who knows but we are seeing the US unmasked in all its glory its not looking good the line is going the wrong way.

God help America


----------



## moXJO

Trump wants to bring back onshore pharmaceutical manufacturing.
A lot of the pills coming out of China were tainted with carcinogens. They are also at the mercy of China with supply.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Trump wants to bring back onshore pharmaceutical manufacturing.
> A lot of the pills coming out of China were tainted with carcinogens. They are also at the mercy of China with supply.




The US is at the mercy of big pharma paying off politicians drug prices are obscene in the US


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> The US is at the mercy of big pharma paying off politicians drug prices are obscene in the US



I think it's a dangerous game when you offshore too many industries. Especially in times of crisis. Globalization is looking like sht at the moment.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> I think it's a dangerous game when you offshore too many industries. Especially in times of crisis. Globalization is looking like sht at the moment.





Agree about offshoring critical products, you can add selling off to private companies essential services as well IMHO


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Agree about offshoring critical products, you can add selling off to private companies essential services as well IMHO



Especially to foreign companies tied to foreign governments.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Trump wants to bring back onshore pharmaceutical manufacturing.
> A lot of the pills coming out of China were tainted with carcinogens. They are also at the mercy of China with supply.




Really ?  You have proof of that accusation ? Where have we seen a legitimate story about contaminated drugs from China ?  Please share MoXjo ..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Really ?  You have proof of that accusation ? Where have we seen a legitimate story about contaminated drugs from China ?  Please share MoXjo ..



Oh sorry comrade. Did I go against the wailing against Trump.

*Carcinogens Have Infiltrated the Generic Drug Supply in the U.S*

*https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...inted-generic-drug-valsartan-got-past-the-fda*

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/nyp...dden-perils-of-drugs-imported-from-china/amp/

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/09/06/consumers-at-risk-from-medicines-made-in-china/

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...fda-inspector-warns-dangers-u-s-meds-n1002971


----------



## basilio

Thanks moXjo. That was an important story from Bloomberg. It did remind us of how companies  whether they are in China, India or the US  can take very dangerous shortcuts when maximising profits.

And  I think that is particularly significant when we recognize how Trump has slashed  government regulations on  Health and Safety regulations across US industry.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-trump-begins-to-slash-red-tape-idUSKCN1C619Q


----------



## basilio

As I have seen it companies in the US an Australia have been very quick to move their product source overseas to China or India or Vietnam or the next cheap production centre. They squeeze the foreign company to the floor in terms of price.  Inevitably the quality  and safety of products suffers.

When the product comes back the company makes an absolute mint becasue production costs are much cheaper but margins have improved.

Certainly makes a case for stricter regulations across the board  to ensure safe quality products doesn't it ?


----------



## moXJO

Trump is a greedy idiot when it comes to a lot of areas. His fight back against China and attempts to bring the US back to self reliance has been very forward thinking.

Europe is regretful of the mess they have made. The current greek/turkey border shows they have backfliped on their past positions towards asylum seekers.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> As I have seen it companies in the US an Australia have been very quick to move their product source overseas to China or India or Vietnam or the next cheap production centre. They squeeze the foreign company to the floor in terms of price.  Inevitably the quality  and safety of products suffers.
> 
> When the product comes back the company makes an absolute mint becasue production costs are much cheaper but margins have improved.
> 
> Certainly makes a case for stricter regulations across the board  to ensure safe quality products doesn't it ?



The problem now is China jumping on distressed assets.


----------



## dutchie

The Senate (Republicans majority) just passed a bill for economic relief (stimulus). Part of the funds ($25 million) is allocated to give the politicians a raise.
What a joke. The Republican Swamp is alive and well.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> The Senate (Republicans majority) just passed a bill for economic relief (stimulus). Part of the funds ($25 million) is allocated to give the politicians a raise.
> What a joke. The Republican Swamp is alive and well.




Your kidding! 

US politics at its best


----------



## moXJO

A 
number of the posts specifically refer to a $25 million funding allocation for the House referenced in a version of the package proposed by House Democrats on March 23.

That House proposal included $25 million for “Salaries and Expenses” for the chamber — which would be “allocated in accordance with a spend plan submitted to the Committee on Appropriations of the House of Representatives by the Chief Administrative Officer and approved by such Committee.”

But the bill never said it was for legislators’ salaries. Nor does the version of the stimulus package being worked out in the Republican-controlled Senate — the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act — which similarly outlines $25 million for the House.

A spokesman for the House Appropriations Committee called the pay-raise claims circulating online “absurd and inaccurate.”

“The funding is to support the House’s capability to telework, including for the purchase of equipment and improvements to the network,” Evan Hollander told us in an email. “It will also provide for reimbursement costs for the staff of the House Child Care Center and covers the costs of the House food service contracts. In addition, it will support the Sergeant-At-Arms on continuity of operations matters.”

He added: “Moreover, Member salaries are funded through the Treasury pursuant to the Constitution and are not funded through appropriations.”

Also, as we said, the $25 million funding for the House is included in the Senate version of the package, according to draft legislation posted March 25 by the Senate Appropriations Committee. The measure — which includes $93 million for the legislative branch collectively, including $10 million for the Republican-controlled Senate — has been agreed to in principle by congressional leaders and the White House.

A document posted by the Senate Appropriations Committee breaking down emergency appropriations in the package describes the $25 million allocated for the House in the same way Hollander does.

It’s important to note, as we’ve explainedbefore, that the 1989 Ethics Reform Act established an automatic adjustment formula to decide annual changes to lawmakers’ salaries.

That automatic adjustment formula is “based on changes in private sector wages and salaries as measured by the Employment Cost Index,” according to the Congressional Research Service. The percentage increase cannot surpass that for federal employees who fall under the “General Schedule” classification. It automatically goes into effect unless Congress statutorily denies it, which it has done every year since 2009.

Democrats had considered in mid-2019 ending that decade-long hiatus and allowing the automatic pay increase to go through, but backed away from the idea following a backlash from within the party.

_Editor’s note: FactCheck.org is one of several organizations __working with Facebook__ to debunk misinformation shared on social media. Our previous stories can be found here._


----------



## orr

Who's following the zeitgeist to feel out the direction of the current US mood on the prospects of re-election of the orange incompetent?
Bankruptcy would surely disqualify a Presidential contender? even if delinquent ineptitude obviously does not.


----------



## bellenuit

*Medical Expert Who Corrects Trump Is Now a Target of the Far Right

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage*


----------



## moXJO

orr said:


> Who's following the zeitgeist to feel out the direction of the current US mood on the prospects of re-election of the orange incompetent?
> Bankruptcy would surely disqualify a Presidential contender? even if delinquent ineptitude obviously does not.



Trumps gone if Biden doesn't go full dementia. Unfortunately Biden looks full dementia and rapey. Perhaps they won't have a choice and dems put another candidate in?


----------



## basilio

Trump  decides he can't stop the waves and says 100,000 dead  is "good result" (A couple of weeks ago it was all going to "disappear" ). 

Calls for "Unity" then trashes reporters and then insinuates doctors and health workers are black marketing masks. 

_*Trump says keeping US Covid-19 deaths to 100,000 would be a ‘very good job’*

Donald Trump has extended America’s national shutdown for a month, bowing to public health experts, and scientific reality, and warning that the worst of the coronavirus pandemic is yet to come.


Speaking in the White House Rose Garden, the US president claimed that, if his administration keeps the death toll to 100,000, it will have done “a very good job” – a startling shift from his optimistic predictions of a few days ago when he said he hoped to restart the economy by Easter.

*Trump also undermined his plea for unity by uttering falsehoods, verbally abusing reporters and making incendiary allegations that implied health care workers were stealing masks, without providing evidence.
*_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ed-six-month-lockdown-covid-19-latest-updates


----------



## basilio

One of the unfolding tragedies of the US health system is that as workers are stood down they lose their health insurance.

So if they have to get treated for COVID 19 they either die and/or go bankrupt .


----------



## satanoperca

basilio said:


> One of the unfolding tragedies of the US health system is that as workers are stood down they lose their health insurance.
> 
> So if they have to get treated for COVID 19 they either die and/or go bankrupt .




Very good point. 

As I am no expert on the USA, I will make the assumption that it will be a case of, need hospitalization due the virus, show us the cash or your health insurance policy, if you cannot go home and die.


----------



## satanoperca

basilio said:


> _*Trump says keeping US Covid-19 deaths to 100,000 would be a ‘very good job’*_



From, we don't have a problem then > we have a small issue > issue is under control > if 100,000 people have died, we have done a great job.

What is he going to say when it is 200,000 > ?

My only fear is when is does go > 100,000 and he looses support his only option to create a war with some country - China.


----------



## macca

China owns lots of US Treasury bonds

If Trump says your virus cost the USA $2bill? then cancels bonds owned by China to that amount the USA will cheer him on

Reelection would be easy after that


----------



## basilio

*How do 3 million newly unemployed people get health care?*
The uninsured rate is spiking in the middle of a pandemic.

More than 3 million Americans just lost their jobs in the middle of a global pandemic. For those whose jobs offered benefits, that also probably means they’re losing their health insurance, too — exposing yet another way in which the US health system is vulnerable amid a public health emergency.

And what are all of those people supposed to do now, during the Covid-19 coronavirus outbreak, when having health coverage is as vital, or more so, than ever?

”With the number of people losing their jobs, there’s little doubt that the number of people uninsured is increasing right now,” Larry Levitt, senior vice president at the Kaiser Family Foundation, told me, “at the exact time when some of them will need health care the most if they become infected and seriously ill.” 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../coronavirus-us-unemployment-health-insurance


----------



## moXJO

I feel like not being able raise Robs blood pressure has left a hole in my life. So I'll leave this here:

What has Trump done since this Chinese Virus started plaguing the world.

On January 29, Trump created a White House Coronavirus Task Force.

On January 31, Trump declared Coronavirus to be a public health emergency and implemented a ban on travel from China to the United States.

On February 5 , the Democrats' held its very first Coronavirus hearing in the House, after the impeachment trial had failed to convict the President.

Shortly after, Trump announced further travel restrictions on certain global hot spots namely Iran, South Korea, and eventually, all of Europe. 
Returning from travel-restricted countries, Americans were routed to specific airports, where they could be properly screened and, if necessary, isolated.

In March, the president closed the southern and northern borders of the United States to prevent further virus cases or problems from coming here.

Democrats and their supporters started supporting Communist China's talking point that it was “racist” for anyone to called the Chinese Virus. Joe Biden, described Trump's calling it the Chinese Virus both racist and xenophobic. He also stated that he would not have instituted a travel ban like Trump had and would have left the borders open.

February 29, the FDA issued emergency approval for the development of new Coronavirus tests. To achieve this, Trump instructed the agency to cut bureaucratic red tape.

The Department of Health & Human Services provided money to accelerate the production of diagnostic tests. Trump issued orders allowing the agency to “to immediately waive provisions of applicable laws and regulations to give healthcare providers maximum flexibility to respond to the virus and care for patients.”

On March 16, the National Institutes of Health announced the start of a clinical trial aimed at creating a Coronavirus vaccine.

Joe Biden states. “The Obama-Biden Administration set up the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense,” he boasted, “to prepare for future pandemics like COVID-19" 
"Donald Trump eliminated it, and now we're paying the price.” Trump's “draconian cuts,” said Biden, were now costing people their lives.

Former NSC official Tim Morrison responded that Trump streamlined the bloated agency, leaving the bio-defense division untouched. Morrison said Trump created "real accountability in the federal government’s expansive bio-defense system,” but accused Trump's detractors of having “misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented” the facts.

On March 4, HHS announced its plan to purchase 500 million N95 respirators for the Strategic National Stockpile.

A week later, President Trump signed an order to make general-use face masks available to healthcare workers.

On March 17, the Department of Defense announced that it would be providing 5 million additional respirator masks as well as 2,000 specialized ventilators.

Democratic candidate Bloomberg said many Americans would have to “pay a heavy cost” for “the president’s management incompetence.”

On March 5, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) created new billing codes for Coronavirus tests, to accurately track the public health response.

On March 6, Trump signed Congressional legislation securing $8.3 billion for Coronavirus response efforts — money to cover the costs of public lab testing, isolation and quarantine initiatives, the sanitization of public areas, and vaccine research.

That week, Trump declared a national emergency, which freed up an additional $42 billion to fund the cause.

Speaker Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Schumer released a statement declaring that Trump "continues to manufacture needless chaos within his administration, and it is hampering the government’s response to the coronavirus outbreak.”

President Trump met with executives from the banking, health insurance, pharmaceutical, airline, grocery store, and retail store industries, among others to get them to join the war against the virus and help the American people.

On March 10, Trump urged Congress to pass a payroll tax cut.

The same day, the Department of Agriculture announced that it would allow meal-service programs to remain active while schools were closed due to the virus

CMS, after meeting with Trump and V P Pence, announced that Medicare Advantage and Part D plans could waive co-payments for Coronavirus tests and treatment.

According to Democratic candidate Steyer, “Trump’s incompetence” was akin to “a neon sign going like, ‘I stink at my job. Yeah, I am a dummy! Ok?’ by Donald Trump.”

On March 11, The Administration announced that health savings accounts could be used to cover Coronavirus testing and treatment without co-payments.

The same day, Trump directed the Treasury Department to allow Coronavirus-impacted individuals and businesses to defer the payment of taxes that they owed.

Former Virginia Governor Democrat Terry McAuliffe says, “We got a guy in the White House who doesn’t know anything about patriotism, doesn’t know anything about empathy.”

On March 12, Trump tells the Small Business Administration to make available some $50 billion in low-interest disaster loans for businesses impacted by the virus.

That same day, Biden proclaims that by cutting money to the Global Health Security Agenda, the US was not prepared for this pandemic. This was an outright lie. The cuts never happened and in fact, Trump's budget increased an increase for the GHSA.

On March 12, the Administration increased flexibility of unemployment insurance programs, to allow workers to benefit from them.

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell pronounced “More people are sick in America tonight because Donald Trump is president. More people are dead and dying in America tonight because Donald Trump is president.”

On March 13, Trump authorized HHS existing rules and regulations be waived so that healthcare providers could respond quickly to the crisis with little to no red tape.

The same day, Trump directed the Energy Department to purchase large quantities of crude oil for the National Strategic Reserve.

The same day, Trump directed the Education Department to waive interest payments on student loans held by the federal government.

On March 14, the Administration negotiated legislation to provide tax credits for businesses choosing to give paid leave to their employees.

Four days later, the Department of Housing and Urban Development announced that it would temporarily suspend foreclosures and evictions affecting families whose mortgages were insured by FHA.

According to Bloomberg, Trump had “failed to prepare for a deadly pandemic — leaving Americans deeply unsettled” as a result.

The Administration has provided every state with increased flexibility to approve the establishment of Coronavirus testing laboratories as well as drive-through testing sites.

On March 14, the Administration announced it was working with Google to develop a website designed to help Americans learn coronavirus prevention procedures - determine whether or not they needed a test - and where they could get one.

Four days later, the Administration launched a partnership with the Ad Council, various media networks, and a number of digital platforms to produce public service announcements about the Coronavirus.

In March, CMS expanded access to telehealth services for Medicare beneficiaries, enabling patients to consult with their doctors remotely while avoiding potential exposure to the virus.

Joe Biden said that the World Health Organization had “offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now,” but Trump “refused them.” This was ANOTHER lie. WHO spokesperson Margaret Harris was quoted as saying “No discussions occurred between WHO and CDC [Centers for Disease Control & Prevention] about WHO providing COVID-19 tests to the United States.”

On March 18, the Administration announced that the U.S. Navy would be deploying two medical ships to help support areas impacted by Coronavirus.

On March 19, Trump signed into law a Congressional bill to not only ensure paid leave benefits to many Americans, but to make free Coronavirus testing available to anyone in need, including the uninsured. The bill also included support for nutrition programs such as the food stamp system.

Democrat Senator Tim Kaine says the president was guilty of“inflammatory China-bashing” and “weeks and weeks of tweeting lies and misinformation about the virus, while the leaders of other nations were taking steps to make sure their populations could be safe."

Former basketball star Kareem Abdul-Jabbar condemned Trump's “failure as a leader” and depicting the president's supporters as nothing more than “cult members” who “mindlessly follow a stern dictatorial father-figure who tells them what to do and think. Like, well, Nazis.”

On March 21, the FDA announced that it had approved a rapid Coronavirus test that would require no training to administer and would yield results in less than an hour.

On March 22, Trump asked multiple car companies to mass produce ventilators to help combat the pandemic.

That same day, NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio accused Trump of refusing to “lift a finger to help his hometown” deal with with the coronavirus outbreak. “I can’t be blunt enough, ifthe president doesn’t act, people will die who could have lived otherwise.”

In a March 22 interview, Fox News host Mark Levin said to Dr. Anthony Fauci: “There is this statement by some in the press, some in the opposition party, that the president doesn't follow the science. Is the president following the science?” After replying that in the daily Coronavirus Task Force meetings “we make all of our decisions and recommendations that are based on the science,” Fauci said: “I have never in that room had a situation where I said, scientifically, this is the right thing to do and they said, don't do it. Or [I have never said] scientifically, this is the wrong thing to do, and they did it anyway. Then we get up and we present it to the president. And he asks a lot of questions. That's his nature. He is constantly asking the question, and I never, in the multiple times that I've done that ... He has never overruled me.”

And yet, on that very same day, New York magazine's Jonathan Chait published an article titled “Trump Is Back to Waging War on Science, at the Worst Possible Moment.” The piece concludes with this stinging indictment of the president: “Public-health professionals have had nothing to offer him but facts and science. They never had a chance.”


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> The Senate (Republicans majority) just passed a bill for economic relief (stimulus). Part of the funds ($25 million) is allocated to give the politicians a raise.
> What a joke. The Republican Swamp is alive and well.



OMG if only it happened in the U.S. 

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news...9157228d8?sv=6eaeab1f29bbe8e8b66b4e3888c173af
From the article:
_PRIME Minister Julia Gillard's salary will soar by $90,000 to about $470,000, making her more highly paid than US President Barack Obama and British PM David Cameron.

Only days after the Gillard Government announced plans to slash public spending as part of a savage mini-budget to bring government coffers back into surplus, The Courier-Mail can reveal the base salary for even the most junior parliamentarian will jump from $140,000 to at least $180,000_.

What is it about bricks and glass houses.
Don't you just love it.


----------



## Humid

sptrawler said:


> OMG if only it happened in the U.S.
> 
> https://www.couriermail.com.au/news...9157228d8?sv=6eaeab1f29bbe8e8b66b4e3888c173af
> From the article:
> _PRIME Minister Julia Gillard's salary will soar by $90,000 to about $470,000, making her more highly paid than US President Barack Obama and British PM David Cameron.
> 
> Only days after the Gillard Government announced plans to slash public spending as part of a savage mini-budget to bring government coffers back into surplus, The Courier-Mail can reveal the base salary for even the most junior parliamentarian will jump from $140,000 to at least $180,000_.
> 
> What is it about bricks and glass houses.
> Don't you just love it.




What makes it even worse for me is the Qantas honcho could probably pay the lot of them out of his salary 
How’s Qantas going?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I feel like not being able raise Robs blood pressure has left a hole in my life. So I'll leave this here:
> 
> What has Trump done since this Chinese Virus started plaguing the world.
> 
> On January 29, Trump created a White House Coronavirus Task Force.
> 
> On January 31, Trump declared Coronavirus to be a public health emergency and implemented a ban on travel from China to the United States.
> 
> On February 5 , the Democrats' held its very first Coronavirus hearing in the House, after the impeachment trial had failed to convict the President.
> 
> Shortly after, Trump announced further travel restrictions on certain global hot spots namely Iran, South Korea, and eventually, all of Europe.
> Returning from travel-restricted countries, Americans were routed to specific airports, where they could be properly screened and, if necessary, isolated.
> 
> In March, the president closed the southern and northern borders of the United States to prevent further virus cases or problems from coming here.
> 
> Democrats and their supporters started supporting Communist China's talking point that it was “racist” for anyone to called the Chinese Virus. Joe Biden, described Trump's calling it the Chinese Virus both racist and xenophobic. He also stated that he would not have instituted a travel ban like Trump had and would have left the borders open.
> 
> February 29, the FDA issued emergency approval for the development of new Coronavirus tests. To achieve this, Trump instructed the agency to cut bureaucratic red tape.
> 
> The Department of Health & Human Services provided money to accelerate the production of diagnostic tests. Trump issued orders allowing the agency to “to immediately waive provisions of applicable laws and regulations to give healthcare providers maximum flexibility to respond to the virus and care for patients.”
> 
> On March 16, the National Institutes of Health announced the start of a clinical trial aimed at creating a Coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> Joe Biden states. “The Obama-Biden Administration set up the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense,” he boasted, “to prepare for future pandemics like COVID-19"
> "Donald Trump eliminated it, and now we're paying the price.” Trump's “draconian cuts,” said Biden, were now costing people their lives.
> 
> Former NSC official Tim Morrison responded that Trump streamlined the bloated agency, leaving the bio-defense division untouched. Morrison said Trump created "real accountability in the federal government’s expansive bio-defense system,” but accused Trump's detractors of having “misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented” the facts.
> 
> On March 4, HHS announced its plan to purchase 500 million N95 respirators for the Strategic National Stockpile.
> 
> A week later, President Trump signed an order to make general-use face masks available to healthcare workers.
> 
> On March 17, the Department of Defense announced that it would be providing 5 million additional respirator masks as well as 2,000 specialized ventilators.
> 
> Democratic candidate Bloomberg said many Americans would have to “pay a heavy cost” for “the president’s management incompetence.”
> 
> On March 5, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) created new billing codes for Coronavirus tests, to accurately track the public health response.
> 
> On March 6, Trump signed Congressional legislation securing $8.3 billion for Coronavirus response efforts — money to cover the costs of public lab testing, isolation and quarantine initiatives, the sanitization of public areas, and vaccine research.
> 
> That week, Trump declared a national emergency, which freed up an additional $42 billion to fund the cause.
> 
> Speaker Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Schumer released a statement declaring that Trump "continues to manufacture needless chaos within his administration, and it is hampering the government’s response to the coronavirus outbreak.”
> 
> President Trump met with executives from the banking, health insurance, pharmaceutical, airline, grocery store, and retail store industries, among others to get them to join the war against the virus and help the American people.
> 
> On March 10, Trump urged Congress to pass a payroll tax cut.
> 
> The same day, the Department of Agriculture announced that it would allow meal-service programs to remain active while schools were closed due to the virus
> 
> CMS, after meeting with Trump and V P Pence, announced that Medicare Advantage and Part D plans could waive co-payments for Coronavirus tests and treatment.
> 
> According to Democratic candidate Steyer, “Trump’s incompetence” was akin to “a neon sign going like, ‘I stink at my job. Yeah, I am a dummy! Ok?’ by Donald Trump.”
> 
> On March 11, The Administration announced that health savings accounts could be used to cover Coronavirus testing and treatment without co-payments.
> 
> The same day, Trump directed the Treasury Department to allow Coronavirus-impacted individuals and businesses to defer the payment of taxes that they owed.
> 
> Former Virginia Governor Democrat Terry McAuliffe says, “We got a guy in the White House who doesn’t know anything about patriotism, doesn’t know anything about empathy.”
> 
> On March 12, Trump tells the Small Business Administration to make available some $50 billion in low-interest disaster loans for businesses impacted by the virus.
> 
> That same day, Biden proclaims that by cutting money to the Global Health Security Agenda, the US was not prepared for this pandemic. This was an outright lie. The cuts never happened and in fact, Trump's budget increased an increase for the GHSA.
> 
> On March 12, the Administration increased flexibility of unemployment insurance programs, to allow workers to benefit from them.
> 
> MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell pronounced “More people are sick in America tonight because Donald Trump is president. More people are dead and dying in America tonight because Donald Trump is president.”
> 
> On March 13, Trump authorized HHS existing rules and regulations be waived so that healthcare providers could respond quickly to the crisis with little to no red tape.
> 
> The same day, Trump directed the Energy Department to purchase large quantities of crude oil for the National Strategic Reserve.
> 
> The same day, Trump directed the Education Department to waive interest payments on student loans held by the federal government.
> 
> On March 14, the Administration negotiated legislation to provide tax credits for businesses choosing to give paid leave to their employees.
> 
> Four days later, the Department of Housing and Urban Development announced that it would temporarily suspend foreclosures and evictions affecting families whose mortgages were insured by FHA.
> 
> According to Bloomberg, Trump had “failed to prepare for a deadly pandemic — leaving Americans deeply unsettled” as a result.
> 
> The Administration has provided every state with increased flexibility to approve the establishment of Coronavirus testing laboratories as well as drive-through testing sites.
> 
> On March 14, the Administration announced it was working with Google to develop a website designed to help Americans learn coronavirus prevention procedures - determine whether or not they needed a test - and where they could get one.
> 
> Four days later, the Administration launched a partnership with the Ad Council, various media networks, and a number of digital platforms to produce public service announcements about the Coronavirus.
> 
> In March, CMS expanded access to telehealth services for Medicare beneficiaries, enabling patients to consult with their doctors remotely while avoiding potential exposure to the virus.
> 
> Joe Biden said that the World Health Organization had “offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now,” but Trump “refused them.” This was ANOTHER lie. WHO spokesperson Margaret Harris was quoted as saying “No discussions occurred between WHO and CDC [Centers for Disease Control & Prevention] about WHO providing COVID-19 tests to the United States.”
> 
> On March 18, the Administration announced that the U.S. Navy would be deploying two medical ships to help support areas impacted by Coronavirus.
> 
> On March 19, Trump signed into law a Congressional bill to not only ensure paid leave benefits to many Americans, but to make free Coronavirus testing available to anyone in need, including the uninsured. The bill also included support for nutrition programs such as the food stamp system.
> 
> Democrat Senator Tim Kaine says the president was guilty of“inflammatory China-bashing” and “weeks and weeks of tweeting lies and misinformation about the virus, while the leaders of other nations were taking steps to make sure their populations could be safe."
> 
> Former basketball star Kareem Abdul-Jabbar condemned Trump's “failure as a leader” and depicting the president's supporters as nothing more than “cult members” who “mindlessly follow a stern dictatorial father-figure who tells them what to do and think. Like, well, Nazis.”
> 
> On March 21, the FDA announced that it had approved a rapid Coronavirus test that would require no training to administer and would yield results in less than an hour.
> 
> On March 22, Trump asked multiple car companies to mass produce ventilators to help combat the pandemic.
> 
> That same day, NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio accused Trump of refusing to “lift a finger to help his hometown” deal with with the coronavirus outbreak. “I can’t be blunt enough, ifthe president doesn’t act, people will die who could have lived otherwise.”
> 
> In a March 22 interview, Fox News host Mark Levin said to Dr. Anthony Fauci: “There is this statement by some in the press, some in the opposition party, that the president doesn't follow the science. Is the president following the science?” After replying that in the daily Coronavirus Task Force meetings “we make all of our decisions and recommendations that are based on the science,” Fauci said: “I have never in that room had a situation where I said, scientifically, this is the right thing to do and they said, don't do it. Or [I have never said] scientifically, this is the wrong thing to do, and they did it anyway. Then we get up and we present it to the president. And he asks a lot of questions. That's his nature. He is constantly asking the question, and I never, in the multiple times that I've done that ... He has never overruled me.”
> 
> And yet, on that very same day, New York magazine's Jonathan Chait published an article titled “Trump Is Back to Waging War on Science, at the Worst Possible Moment.” The piece concludes with this stinging indictment of the president: “Public-health professionals have had nothing to offer him but facts and science. They never had a chance.”




Be nice to know which particular one eyed publication constructed that particular time line of events and activities. 
Believe what you want MoXjo. Just don't pretend that anyone with two eyes respects such a selective and twisted narrative.
Hint. It gave itself away when it described COVID 19 as the Chinese virus.


----------



## basilio

This analysis of Donald Trumps approach to the CORVID 19 crisis offers a sense of what should have happened. 
It is well worth reading to appreciate how dangerous Donald Trump is as a leader.

* The coronavirus is the worst intelligence failure in US history *
Micah Zenko
The Trump administration’s unprecedented indifference, even willful neglect, forced a catastrophic strategic surprise on to the American people

Last September, I met the vice-president for risk for a Fortune 100 company in Washington DC. I asked the executive – who previously had a long career as an intelligence analyst – the question you would ask any risk officer: “What are you most worried about?” Without pausing, this person replied, “A highly contagious virus that begins somewhere in China and spreads rapidly.” This vice-president, whose company has offices throughout east Asia, explained the preventive mitigating steps the company had subsequently adopted to counter this potential threat.

Since the novel coronavirus has swept the world, I have often thought about this person’s prescient risk calculus. Most leaders lack the discipline to do routine risk-based horizon scanning, and fewer still develop the requisite contingency plans. Even rarer is the leader who has the foresight to correctly identify the top threat far enough in advance to develop and implement those plans.

Suffice it to say, the Trump administration has cumulatively failed, both in taking seriously the specific, repeated intelligence community warnings about a coronavirus outbreak and in vigorously pursuing the nationwide response initiatives commensurate with the predicted threat. The federal government alone has the resources and authorities to lead the relevant public and private stakeholders to confront the foreseeable harms posed by the virus. Unfortunately, Trump officials made a series of judgments (minimizing the hazards of Covid-19) and decisions (refusing to act with the urgency required) that have needlessly made Americans far less safe.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-the-worst-intelligence-failure-in-us-history

* Micah Zenko *
Micah Zenko is a fellow in the Center for Preventive Action at the Council on Foreign Relations.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Be nice to know which particular one eyed publication constructed that particular time line of events and activities.
> Believe what you want MoXjo. Just don't pretend that anyone with two eyes respects such a selective and twisted narrative.
> Hint. It gave itself away when it described COVID 19 as the Chinese virus.



So German measles aren't a thing?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> So German measles aren't a thing?




There was a kinder reason for that name. 

_The illness is called German measles because German physicians wrote the first clear description of it in 1760. Rubella vaccines that prevent this illness first became available in 1969.

https://www.health24.com/Medical/Childhood-diseases/Overview/German-measles-Rubella-20120721_


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> There was a kinder reason for that name.
> 
> _The illness is called German measles because German physicians wrote the first clear description of it in 1760. Rubella vaccines that prevent this illness first became available in 1969.
> 
> https://www.health24.com/Medical/Childhood-diseases/Overview/German-measles-Rubella-20120721_



It's still German measles. That's not a kinder reason


----------



## sptrawler

Humid said:


> What makes it even worse for me is the Qantas honcho could probably pay the lot of them out of his salary
> How’s Qantas going?



That is something that has got really out of control IMO, ridiculous salaries and what makes it worse is when the dickheads wreck a company they walk away with a handout.
IMO the 60% tax bracket should be re introduced, for people earning over a certain amount, it is just taking the piss.


----------



## moXJO

Ebola is a river in the Congo 
Zika is the name of a forest in Uganda
Fijian flu is named after a province in China.
Spanish Flu
MERS Middle East respiratory syndrome 
Guinea worm
West Nile virus 
Omsk hemorrhagic fever 
Marburg virus 
How about Ross river fever? Where's that from.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> It's still German measles. That's not a kinder reason




Rubbish...There was a clear historical reason for the original name to honour the German doctors who identified it as a separate strain from normal measles. Medically its called Rubella but common usage has seen the German measles name still used in many circles.

The reason,* the only reason, *to put the moniker of the "Chinese virus" on the current disease is to disparage China politically. It has been practice for many years to give a medical name to new diseases to stop the sort of nastiness currently being used by  Trump and co.

Thats it Moxjo.  Nothing simpler than being mean.


----------



## basilio

The list you give ? Great.  But they weren't used  to disparage countries.

For the sake of ease of use you can put a regional source. 

If people aren't xresholes they might not end up disparaging that country or area.  
But if you are a truly supreme xrsewipe like the current White House resident then  meanness and vindictiveness is in your DNA so you will take every opportunity to slag off at perceived opponents.

And of course those people who love a bit of aggro will dutifully start abusing anyone with a Chinese connection as "part of the disease".

This is not a healthy discussion MoXjo.  You can't or won't see why the use of the phrase Chinese Virus  is not deliberately  disparaging  in these times ? Then that's your identity.


----------



## basilio

Of course the first discussions around the virus simply labelled it corona virus. The decision to make it COVID 19 was to specify it more clearly if/when a variant comes to light. 
It took the current Whitehouse incumbent to really make a splash with a cultural  name.


----------



## moXJO

Oh fine, we will call it Basilio virus.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The list you give ? Great.  But they weren't used  to disparage countries.
> 
> For the sake of ease of use you can put a regional source.
> 
> If people aren't xresholes they might not end up disparaging that country or area.
> But if you are a truly supreme xrsewipe like the current White House resident then  meanness and vindictiveness is in your DNA so you will take every opportunity to slag off at perceived opponents.
> 
> And of course those people who love a bit of aggro will dutifully start abusing anyone with a Chinese connection as "part of the disease".
> 
> This is not a healthy discussion MoXjo.  You can't or won't see why the use of the phrase Chinese Virus  is not deliberately  disparaging  in these times ? Then that's your identity.




The reason being is that the CCP are trying to cover up. They are pushing propaganda to blame everyone (e.g. italy or US).
People don't even know the true timeline of events. And now we have dicks praising China.

Let's lay out the truth. CCP covered up for weeks possibly months. Their response threw the citizens of wuhan under a bus. Exported the virus to the world. And have made a series of sht moves since.

Turning the propaganda  back on the CCP to show everyone of their failures is deserved.
Go look what they did to their own citizens during and not the crap the CCP released.

Oh and stop supporting murderous regimes.


----------



## basilio

MoXjo I have never said China didn't make grave mistakes in the first month of the virus outbreak.

When they did take control of the situation they used some pretty brutal methods.  Locking down 1 billion people to control this pandemic was not done with just words and entreaties. And make no mistake the UK, Italy, France Aus will take a far more interventionist approach as they realise there are always xicks who can't/won't do the right thing.

But in terms of looking at how countries and leaders have prepared for this crisis?  You trotted out a shameless timeline that somehow gave credit to the current administration for their work.  It just repeated the litany of deceit and misinformation that has led the US into being the current world leader in COVID infections and mortality.  That is the reality  the right wing rags are trying to distract people away from. 

*WE* are great. *THEY* were evil and rubbish. Simple, stupid, vindictive, wrong headed and politically very dangerous. 

And supporting murderous regimes? Let's not start comparing the records of US  behaviour in the Middle East, Afghanistan and anywhere else  VS China.  There is plenty of blood to go around.


----------



## basilio

*Trump speaks the Truth...*
They say a broken clock is right twice a day. Well the current Liar-in-Chief can still make quite honest observations about the intentions of Republicans  when it comes to getting re elected any way they can.
Who ever thought that simple things like early voting and vote by mail procedures to ensure every voter had an opportunity to exercise their democratic right .... was actually completely against  Republican  Party interests

* Trump says Republicans would ‘never’ be elected again if it was easier to vote *
President dismissed Democratic-led push for voter reforms amid coronavirus pandemic during Fox & Friends appearance

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/trump-republican-party-voting-reform-coronavirus


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Trump speaks the Truth...*
> They say a broken clock is right twice a day. Well the current Liar-in-Chief can still make quite honest observations about the intentions of Republicans  when it comes to getting re elected any way they can.
> Who ever thought that simple things like early voting and vote by mail procedures to ensure every voter had an opportunity to exercise their democratic right .... was actually completely against  Republican  Party interests
> 
> * Trump says Republicans would ‘never’ be elected again if it was easier to vote *
> President dismissed Democratic-led push for voter reforms amid coronavirus pandemic during Fox & Friends appearance
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/trump-republican-party-voting-reform-coronavirus



Umm no. Democrats vote by post resulted in dems harvesting votes and trucking them in. No democracy in the world was doing that. None that I can recall. That's why Cali is a sht hole.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> MoXjo I have never said China didn't make grave mistakes in the first month of the virus outbreak.
> 
> When they did take control of the situation they used some pretty brutal methods.  Locking down 1 billion people to control this pandemic was not done with just words and entreaties. And make no mistake the UK, Italy, France Aus will take a far more interventionist approach as they realise there are always xicks who can't/won't do the right thing.
> 
> But in terms of looking at how countries and leaders have prepared for this crisis?  You trotted out a shameless timeline that somehow gave credit to the current administration for their work.  It just repeated the litany of deceit and misinformation that has led the US into being the current world leader in COVID infections and mortality.  That is the reality  the right wing rags are trying to distract people away from.
> 
> *WE* are great. *THEY* were evil and rubbish. Simple, stupid, vindictive, wrong headed and politically very dangerous.
> 
> And supporting murderous regimes? Let's not start comparing the records of US  behaviour in the Middle East, Afghanistan and anywhere else  VS China.  There is plenty of blood to go around.



Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore were far more reasonable in their response. Mainly because they didn't believe the lies coming out of China.

Go through each Trump point and fact check it if you like. I didn't bother. Are you saying it's wrong?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Umm no. Democrats vote by post resulted in dems harvesting votes and trucking them in. No democracy in the world was doing that. None that I can recall. That's why Cali is a sht hole.




Really ? You mean the Republicans couldn't find people who would vote for them by post but the Dems could ?

And becasue the Dems could mobilise their supporters you wouldn't want them to actually have a voice would you ? Nah far better to minimise the polling booths, take as many as you can out of Dem areas, make it as hard as possible to register.  
Lets look at the Republician playbook shall we ?

* Top Trump adviser: Republicans have 'always' relied on voter suppression *

‘Traditionally, it’s always been Republicans suppressing votes’
Adviser Justin Clark says remarks were taken out of context
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-adviser-republicans-voter-suppression


----------



## basilio

*Republican agenda: Voter suppression and election fraud *
Feb 26th 2019
*In North Carolina, the State Board of Elections has thrown out the election results in its 9th congressional district for fraudulent activity—probably the first time in U.S. history this has happened.*
The fraud was committed by a campaign, not by voters, and by a Republican, not a Democrat.

For years, Republicans have campaigned for voting restrictions claiming, as Donald Trump has repeatedly, that voter fraud is widespread. In fact, it’s not ineligible voters, but rather the fraudulent efforts of an embattled Republican Party to rig the rules that has led to election irregularities.

The fraud in North Carolina’s 9th District—harvesting absentee ballots to pump up the Republican candidate’s votes—was blatant and illegal.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/republican-agenda-voter-suppression-and-election-fraud/


----------



## basilio

*Republican Play book*

*Limitations on early and absentee voting*
In North Carolina, Republican lawmakers requested data on various voting practices, broken down by race. They then passed laws that restricted voting and registration many ways that disproportionately affected African Americans, including cutting back on early voting.[7][8] In a 2016 appellate court case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit struck down a law that removed the first week of early voting. The court held that the GOP used the data they gathered to remove the first week of early voting because more African American voters voted during that week, and African American voters were more likely to vote for Democrats.[9] Between 2008 and 2012 in North Carolina, 70% of African American voters voted early.[10] After cuts to early voting, African American turnout in early voting was down by 8.7% (around 66,000 votes) in North Carolina.[11][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States


----------



## basilio

*Republican Play book*

*Voting procedure disinformation*
Voting procedure disinformation involves giving voters false information about when and how to vote, leading them to fail to cast valid ballots.

For example, in recall elections for the Wisconsin State Senate in 2011, Americans for Prosperity, a conservative political advocacy group founded in 2004 by brothers Charles and David Koch to support Republican candidates and causes in the United States,[13] sent many Democratic voters a mailing that gave an incorrect deadline for returning absentee ballots. Voters who relied on the deadline in the mailing could have sent in their ballots too late for them to be counted.[14] The organization claimed that it was caused by a typographical error.[15]

*Just prior to the 2018 elections, The New York Times warned readers of numerous types of deliberate misinformation, sometimes targeting specific voter demographics. These types of disinformation included false information about casting ballots online by email and by text message, the circulation of doctored photographs in 2016 which claimed Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents were arresting voters at polling places and included threatening language meant to intimidate Latino voters, polling place hoaxes, disinformation on remote voting options, suspicious texts, voting machine malfunction rumors, misleading photos and videos, and false voter fraud allegations. The Times added that messages purportedly sent by Trump to voters in Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, and Georgia were actually disseminated from Republican organizations. In 2018, Trump actually spread information about defective machines in a single Utah county, giving the impression that such difficulties were occurring nationwide*.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States


----------



## basilio

* Republicans push to weaken court that caught them rigging elections *

Proposal overhauls how court justices are elected in Pennsylvania, and could offer a roadmap for undermining state courts elsewhere
Two years ago, Pennsylvania’s supreme court dealt a blow to state Republicans when it said they had unconstitutionally rigged congressional elections in the state. Republicans fumed and threatened to impeach four of the justices, but the map was redrawn, and voters elected an even split of Democrats and Republicans to Congress in 2018. Now, Republicans are weaponizing a new tactic – a move that seems designed to increase their power on the state’s highest court.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/23/republican-election-rigging-court-push-to-weaken


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Really ? You mean the Republicans couldn't find people who would vote for them by post but the Dems could ?
> 
> And becasue the Dems could mobilise their supporters you wouldn't want them to actually have a voice would you ? Nah far better to minimise the polling booths, take as many as you can out of Dem areas, make it as hard as possible to register.
> Lets look at the Republician playbook shall we ?
> 
> * Top Trump adviser: Republicans have 'always' relied on voter suppression *
> 
> ‘Traditionally, it’s always been Republicans suppressing votes’
> Adviser Justin Clark says remarks were taken out of context
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-adviser-republicans-voter-suppression



Umm you do know that they allowed other people to vote for them?
Republicans use it as well, more so after the dems changed the course of elections.

A bit here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2020/02/12/harvesting-votes-to-win-in-2020/




> Vote harvesting occurs when third parties — like campaign workers — collect absentee ballots from voters and deliver them to election officials.
> 
> Allowing individuals other than the voter or his immediate family to handle absentee ballots is a recipe for mischief and wrongdoing.
> 
> Giving third parties who have a stake in the outcome of an election unsupervised access to voters and their absentee ballots is not wise.




It makes a mockery of the Democratic process.

But you do support China. So I suppose it looks like a good idea.


----------



## moXJO

*Florida man with coronavirus says drug touted by Trump saved his life*

*https://nypost.com/2020/03/22/florida-man-with-coronavirus-says-drug-touted-by-trump-saved-his-life/*


----------



## wayneL

So disappointing that this is being used for political point scoring especially by the left.

That is all


----------



## Smurf1976

basilio said:


> The reason,* the only reason, *to put the moniker of the "Chinese virus" on the current disease is to disparage China politically.



Agreed. Trump's action there was political simple as that.

That said, given China is still running these markets which they say are the cause, they deserve far more than simply being disparaged. One way or another, the rest of the world is going to have to stop them. My hope is that it can be done by peaceful diplomatic means.

That's not to say that other countries haven't failed badly at this, but China continuing with these virus producing markets is inexcusable.


----------



## basilio

Smurf1976 said:


> but China continuing with these virus producing markets is inexcusable.



Agree. Not a good idea at all.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> So disappointing that this is being used for political point scoring especially by the left.
> 
> That is all




Are you on the right thread here Wayne ?  This is not the end Tribal conflict thread .

The current Whitehouse incumbent is  marching the US into hell.  The most constructive thing he could do at the moment is be quiet and let some more considered and capable people lead the response to the COVID 19 crisis. 

Did I stray off course by deciding to highlight the systematic way Republicans attempt to suppress votes to get re elected ? Perhaps .  But I am rather fed up with the defense of the indefensible which then turns into attacking anything else with a pulse to deflect attention from some very ordinary behaviour.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore were far more reasonable in their response. Mainly because they didn't believe the lies coming out of China.
> 
> Go through each Trump point and fact check it if you like. I didn't bother. Are you saying it's wrong?




I didn't say all the  statements were wrong. I said they were totally selective and very carefully overlooked the grave mistakes this administration made in preparation and early responses to the crisis.

I'm saying this is even more egregious than the Chinese  example *because  Trump and the US had the  full horror what as happening in China laid out in front of them.*

You rightly point out how  Taiwan, Sth Korea and Singapore responded  from mid/late January onwards to test, isolate and control this virus.  Excellent examples to follow.

And yet Trump in the identical  situation wasted 6 weeks clear weeks which allowed the virus to spread and essential preparations remain undone.  Just so wrong.

*The Trump administration’s botched coronavirus response, explained*
From insufficient testing to a lack of coordination, Trump’s Covid-19 response has been a disaster years in the making.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../coronavirus-trump-covid-19-pandemic-response


----------



## basilio

Also worth looking at some more indepth history of using geopolitical names to "identify" the original centre of a disease.
And for example what was the source of  "Spanish Flu" ?

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/18/21185478/coronavirus-usa-trump-chinese-virus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Are you on the right thread here Wayne ?  This is not the end Tribal conflict thread .
> 
> The current Whitehouse incumbent is  marching the US into hell.  The most constructive thing he could do at the moment is be quiet and let some more considered and capable people lead the response to the COVID 19 crisis.
> 
> Did I stray off course by deciding to highlight the systematic way Republicans attempt to suppress votes to get re elected ? Perhaps .  But I am rather fed up with the defense of the indefensible which then turns into attacking anything else with a pulse to deflect attention from some very ordinary behaviour.



There will be plenty of opportunity and I dare say necessity, to debate the politics of this when it is all over.

I envisage my self speaking out to defend and restore our disappearing liberties against both sides of politics.

If I still have the freedom to speak that is.


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> There will be plenty of opportunity and I dare say necessity, to debate the politics of this when it is all over.
> 
> I envisage my self speaking out to defend and restore our disappearing liberties against both sides of politics.
> 
> If I still have the freedom to speak that is.



One must remember, those who have filled their lives with climate change, have to fill it with something else, now that climate change has taken a back seat.
When this subsides, the climate change hymn book will be dusted off and the chorus will start again in joyous wails, just from a different song book.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I didn't say all the  statements were wrong. I said they were totally selective and very carefully overlooked the grave mistakes this administration made in preparation and early responses to the crisis.
> 
> I'm saying this is even more egregious than the Chinese  example *because  Trump and the US had the  full horror what as happening in China laid out in front of them.*
> 
> You rightly point out how  Taiwan, Sth Korea and Singapore responded  from mid/late January onwards to test, isolate and control this virus.  Excellent examples to follow.
> 
> And yet Trump in the identical  situation wasted 6 weeks clear weeks which allowed the virus to spread and essential preparations remain undone.  Just so wrong.
> 
> *The Trump administration’s botched coronavirus response, explained*
> From insufficient testing to a lack of coordination, Trump’s Covid-19 response has been a disaster years in the making.
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../coronavirus-trump-covid-19-pandemic-response



All refuted by the trump timeline I posted.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> All refuted by the trump timeline I posted.



 Magical thinking..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Magical thinking..




It's a slow slow day.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed. Trump's action there was political simple as that.
> 
> That said, given China is still running these markets which they say are the cause, they deserve far more than simply being disparaged. One way or another, the rest of the world is going to have to stop them. My hope is that it can be done by peaceful diplomatic means.
> 
> That's not to say that other countries haven't failed badly at this, but China continuing with these virus producing markets is inexcusable.



This seems to be the overlooked fact smurf, it isn't the first time these weird death viruses have come out of China and all we seem to be able to do is criticise the way Countries try to defend themselves.
It is an underlying thread in all these debates, avoid the underlying issue and make the symptom the issue, then constantly attack those that are trying to address the symptom.
With these viruses, stop the source problem, then billions of dollars and millions of lives wont be lost. Fairly simple really.


----------



## Knobby22

You are allowed to criticise China and also criticise a particular government for poor performance when an outbreak occurs.

It's called walking and chewing gum.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> You are allowed to criticise China and also criticise a particular government for poor performance when an outbreak occurs.
> 
> It's called walking and chewing gum.



Absolutely, if the criticism is warranted, with Trumps response it is warranted and has been noted.
Also a record of the outbreak in the U.S should be monitored.
With China, everyone is walking on eggs?
After a while it's called being a wa#!er.
It kind of moves on from highlighting problems and issue, to obsessive compulsive, just my opinion.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> You are allowed to criticise China and also criticise a particular government for poor performance when an outbreak occurs.
> 
> It's called walking and chewing gum.



Yes.....You are.


----------



## dutchie

It's about time they did this.
https://babylonbee.com/news/mike-pence-issues-permanent-stay-at-home-order-for-women


----------



## PZ99

Nothing like a bit of satire to lighten things up around here. Thanks dutchie. LOL


----------



## satanoperca

satanoperca said:


> From, we don't have a problem then > we have a small issue > issue is under control > if 100,000 people have died, we have done a great job.
> 
> What is he going to say when it is 200,000 > ?
> 
> My only fear is when is does go > 100,000 and he looses support his only option to create a war with some country - China.




4 Days and again the numbers have changed. 200,000 thousand dead forecast  and he believes he has done a great job.

So if we plot the curve, in 15 days time, 1,000,000 dead in the USA and this Muppet has done a great job.

Talk about cleaning the swamp.

War is closer than most can comprehend, off to buy some ammo, crap better get a gun first


----------



## Humid

satanoperca said:


> 4 Days and again the numbers have changed. 200,000 thousand dead forecast  and he believes he has done a great job.
> 
> So if we plot the curve, in 15 days time, 1,000,000 dead in the USA and this Muppet has done a great job.
> 
> Talk about cleaning the swamp.
> 
> War is closer than most can comprehend, off to buy some ammo, crap better get a gun first




The only war I can see for the US is civil


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> 4 Days and again the numbers have changed. 200,000 thousand dead forecast  and he believes he has done a great job.
> 
> So if we plot the curve, in 15 days time, 1,000,000 dead in the USA and this Muppet has done a great job.
> 
> Talk about cleaning the swamp.
> 
> War is closer than most can comprehend, off to buy some ammo, crap better get a gun first



What % is that of their population?

Seems low.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO, know where you are coming from, it is still a very small percentage, even at a million, it is still less than 0.3% of the population, however it will be the effect on it society that will cause the greatest threat.

How many people died in 9/11, and how many people died as a result of 9/11 in the following years.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> moXJO, know where you are coming from, it is still a very small percentage, even at a million, it is still less than 0.3% of the population, however it will be the effect on it society that will cause the greatest threat.
> 
> How many people died in 9/11, and how many people died as a result of 9/11 in the following years.



I'm saying there's a good chance it is going to be a lot higher
Deaths per million 
France 62
Spain 201
Italy 218
US  15


----------



## moXJO

All comes down to how many get infected.

We may under shoot the 200k mark by a lot.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> All comes down to how many get infected.
> 
> We may under shoot the 200k mark by a lot.




Maybe...If you believe the Son of God, 100-200k would be a great outcome.  This from the same xxxx who a mere six weeks ago was saying it was all a hoax and a beat up and could just disappear in  a wisp with some _magical thinking._

Unfortunately I don't think the US will be fortunate  enough to get away with the lower end of possibilities. Why ?
1)* Because of the failure to prepare for this event  as the CDC had wanted. * With this failure essential resources like  masks, ventilators, PPE gear are now in critically short supply and will compromise protection  procedures

2) *Because of the refusal to take swift testing and isolation procedures earlier, the virus has spread uncontrollably in many communities.* Tackling this will require the type of  ruthless lockdowns only the Chinese had the stomach to do. Very unlikely to happen in the US.

3)* Even at this stage there are very mixed messages across the US on the need to isolate.* Business is still pushing to stay open as long as possible  regardless of the consequences

4)* The overall health of the US particularly the poorest is BAD. *Obesity is rampant and that is an element in  causing serious complications with the virus.

5) *The US health system is a xxxxing nightmare.* As a for profit system it will let people die on the streets *and infect everyone else*. To make matters worse the loss of millions of jobs will stop health insurance for millions and result in them suffering the same fate as the ones who didn't have insurance in the first place.

6) *In any case the current health system  will be completely unable to cope with the simultaneous  demands of  every state in crisis*. This is Italy, Spain and China x 100

7*) Donald Trump is totally incapable of bringing the country together to face this crisis*. He still insists on being adored and attacks any hint of criticism.  And this crisis is probably just starting. ScoMo looks positively Churchillin in comparison

8) *The divisions across the country are just so dangerous.  *The evangelicals, the Far Righters, the Billionaires who can only see as far as their dollars. At a time when the country needs to somehow pull together ... it looks really tough.

From 74 cases to 188,000 in 30 days with a full head of steam.  Maybe now is the time to short the DOW ?

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/11/...ion-cut-cdc-public-health-funding-coronavirus
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...-insurance-crisis-is-coming-so-heres-an-idea/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
https://easo.org/covid-19-and-obesity/


----------



## Knobby22

It's hard to comprehend. I know we are going to see some shocking things in two weeks that we may want to forget.

The Florida Governor is a failure as leader only doing something about it today.  Florida is already a hot spot. He will be strung up.


----------



## Knobby22

Not forgetting the UK.


----------



## basilio

*...............Career opportunity at the White House.......*

The President is searching for a bright poodle with no teeth and a faithful willingness to wag its tail at everything the Prez says or does. 
Secure position offered as* Inspector General for the Intelligence Community *. Please send resume ASAP. 
 Similar suitable positions  with identical requirements are always becoming available in this dynamic go-ahead administration so please advise any family members to stay alert.




* Donald Trump fires intelligence watchdog who sparked impeachment process *
Michael Atkinson, inspector general for the intelligence community, alerted Congress to whistleblower complaint

Donald Trump has fired the inspector general for the intelligence community who handled the whistleblower complaint that led to his impeachment, prompting fierce criticism from Democrats.

The US president chose a Friday night, with America consumed by the coronavirus pandemic, to tell the House of Representatives and Senate intelligence committees of his decision to dismiss Michael Atkinson.

In a letter, Trump claimed it was “vital” that he had confidence in the appointees serving as inspectors general, and “that is no longer the case with regard to this inspector general”.

The president would nominate an individual who has his full confidence at a later date, he added.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ligence-watchdog-michael-atkinson-impeachment


----------



## orr

To Any  Trump boosters of old'e out there? I'd appreciate your input on how Trump, obviously incapable of seeing the forward math. And now exposed as such and it's consequences. His constituency incapable of the same.
 If it's less than in the millions of dead?... I'd like to hope. 
Trumpers ? How Are feeling in your gut. 
Any Questioning? ...Yet?

From Orwell... '' _Ignorance is Strength_''
You're showing your power.....


----------



## basilio

Another day. Amnother Trump conference complete with lies, misinformation and the arrogance of a man who believes in his capacity to define reality.
o 10:11 
*Key fact checks of Trump briefing*

The daily briefing has ended. Some key fact checks and falsehoods from Trump:

He falsely suggested the pandemic was not predictable when, in fact, the US intelligence community, public health experts and officials in Trump’s own administration had warned for years that the country was at risk from a pandemic, including specific warnings about a coronavirus outbreak.
He falsely said the testing in the US is “better” than any other country in the world. In fact, some of the initial coronavirus tests sent out to states were seriously flawed – some did not even work. The CDC had insisted it would manufacture the tests itself, creating further problems.
He tried to suggest that Obama’s handling of H1N1 was worse than his handling of Covid-19, when in fact Obama declared an emergency within two weeks of a first confirmed US case.
He falsely said airline passengers were getting tests upon landing, which is not true.
He attacked the inspector general report about testing shortage as politically motivated from an Obama appointee, when in reality, the official behind the report has had a long career with the non-partisan office.
He also said the country would open “sooner than people think”, even as health officials are warning of a gradual return from current restrictions.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-week-america-us-election-news-latest-updates


----------



## IFocus

basilio said:


> Another day. Amnother Trump conference complete with lies, misinformation and the arrogance of a man who believes in his capacity to define reality.
> o 10:11
> *Key fact checks of Trump briefing*
> 
> The daily briefing has ended. Some key fact checks and falsehoods from Trump:
> 
> He falsely suggested the pandemic was not predictable when, in fact, the US intelligence community, public health experts and officials in Trump’s own administration had warned for years that the country was at risk from a pandemic, including specific warnings about a coronavirus outbreak.
> He falsely said the testing in the US is “better” than any other country in the world. In fact, some of the initial coronavirus tests sent out to states were seriously flawed – some did not even work. The CDC had insisted it would manufacture the tests itself, creating further problems.
> He tried to suggest that Obama’s handling of H1N1 was worse than his handling of Covid-19, when in fact Obama declared an emergency within two weeks of a first confirmed US case.
> He falsely said airline passengers were getting tests upon landing, which is not true.
> He attacked the inspector general report about testing shortage as politically motivated from an Obama appointee, when in reality, the official behind the report has had a long career with the non-partisan office.
> He also said the country would open “sooner than people think”, even as health officials are warning of a gradual return from current restrictions.
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-week-america-us-election-news-latest-updates




The difference between Australia's and the US's political leadership could not be more stark.

Anyone here knows I am not a fan of Morrison yet by and large (not entirely) Morrison has put politics to one side and run with expert advice and worked to galvanise Australia as a whole to fight the pandemic.

Trump on the other hand is just WTF.

Still expect to see his polling hold up or improve I guess you get the politicians you deserve.


----------



## moXJO

Trump actually mentioned the virus in the speech Pelosi tore up.
Pelosi, Biden and a host of other dems then said the travel bans were "racist" and that everyone in New York should go to China town and eat/mingle.
That aged well.

He was being impeached and that's all the dems were focused on until they realised the virus coming through. They have now biatched and whinged about everything they can possibly think of.

They are even going crazy over the medication he is pushing.


----------



## IFocus

Morrison was getting smashed by bushfires and sports rorts / slush funds but did not blink when Corona came along Trump on the other hand was saying it would just go away.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Morrison was getting smashed by bushfires and sports rorts / slush funds but did not blink when Corona came along Trump on the other hand was saying it would just go away.



Trump provides more "we can get through anything" responses.

Liberal and labor are both working together. 
Idiots in the democrats are doing everything in their power to cause as much damage to the President and the nation as possible. It's literally crazy to be doing that during a pandemic.

If all hands are not on the same page, then all you get is chaos.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Trump provides more "we can get through anything" responses.
> 
> Liberal and labor are both working together.
> Idiots in the democrats are doing everything in their power to cause as much damage to the President and the nation as possible. It's literally crazy to be doing that during a pandemic.
> 
> If all hands are not on the same page, then all you get is chaos.




If there was a coherant safe pair of hands on the tiller of _US Response_ you might have a point MoXjo.
But that is a mirage isn't it ? A Prez who refuses to recognize expert advice either before, at the start or during the crisis.
Who appoints a drop kick of a nephew to run a shadow COVID ministry ?
Who routinely and repeatedly lies about what is happening ?
Who threatens all international cooperation on the issue by wanting to capture every resource for US use only ?
There is nothing wrong with "we can get through this " encouragement as long as it is included in  coherent leadership and management of a crisis.


----------



## basilio

_Idiots in the democrats are doing everything in their power to cause as much damage to the President and the nation as possible_

And that statement is another absolute  piece of lying Trump BS.
The  lying, thieving, idiot Trump is quite capable of doing far more damage to himself and the nation than any bunch of Dems..


----------



## basilio

For example..During his  current Press Conference the Lying, Idiot in Chief said* he never saw* the memos circulated in January and February by his Economic Advisor Peter Navarro.  Both memos made it clear that the pandemeic that was then sweeping China and had already spread to the US and other parts of the world would cause hundreds of thousands of deaths unless properly addressed.

But no The Prez never saw these memos..  Or if he did he couldn't remember them . Or were written in 12 point type rather than 24 and  they were longer than 100 words.  

He spent six weeks denying this pandemic and trying to use magical Trump thinking to make it go away. And all the while it was spreading across the US and nothing was being done to prepare or deal with the disaster. There is your leader.

* Trump was warned in January of Covid-19's devastating impact, memos reveal *

Economic adviser gave worst-case scenario of 500,000 deaths
Trump claimed no one could have predicted disease’s severity
Donald Trump was warned at the end of January by one of his top White House advisers that coronavirus had the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans and derail the US economy, unless tough action were taken immediately, new memos have revealed.

The memos were written by Trump’s economic adviser, Peter Navarro, and circulated via the National Security Council widely around the White House and federal agencies.

They show that even within the Trump administration alarm bells were ringing by late January, at a time when the president was consistently downplaying the threat of Covid-19.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/donald-trump-coronavirus-memos-warning-peter-navarro


----------



## sptrawler

Now for a real bit of actual Trump news. OMG why oh why can't the people see what you see Bas?

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...ing-coronavirus-pandemic-20200326-p54e0e.html
From the article:
Washington: US President Donald Trump's approval ratings have hit an all-time high during the coronavirus crisis, with a majority of Americans saying they approve of his handling of the pandemic.

The development - evident across a range of recent polls - has astounded Trump's critics who expected the American public to judge him harshly for his often misleading and erratic response to the outbreak.

The country's two most closely-watched polling aggregators both show Trump recording his best approval ratings since he took office. _RealClearPolitics_ puts him at 46.3 per cent approval and Nate Silver's _FiveThirtyEight_ at 44.6 per cent


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> OMG why oh why can't the people see what you see Bas?




Indeed !!  And just to reinforce your point Herr Hitler was overwhelmingly supported by the German people . Stalin as well was very popular as was Mussolini.  I'm sure we can find similar Votes of Support for  Peron, Castro,  and a score of other  authoritarian leaders.

Sad isn't it ? But if you  are ruthless enough, lie bigly enough and sack anyone who disagrees with you you can stop on top of the pile.


----------



## basilio

The memos Trump never saw...

dated 16 hours ago - Health
*Navarro memos warning of mass coronavirus death circulated in January*

*



*
In late January, President Trump's economic adviser Peter Navarro warned his White House colleagues the novel coronavirus could take more than half a million American lives and cost close to $6 trillion, according to memos obtained by Axios.

The state of play: By late February, Navarro was even more alarmed, and he warned his colleagues, in another memo, that up to 2 million Americans could die of the virus.


Navarro's grim estimates are set out in two memos — one dated Jan. 29 and addressed to the National Security Council, the other dated Feb. 23 and addressed to the president. The NSC circulated both memos around the White House and multiple agencies.

In the first memo, which the New York Times was first to report on, Navarro makes his case for "an immediate travel ban on China."

The second lays the groundwork for supplemental requests from Congress, with the warning: "This is NOT a time for penny-pinching or horse trading on the Hill." 

https://www.axios.com/exclusive-nav...ary-da3f08fb-dce1-4f69-89b5-ea048f8382a9.html


----------



## basilio

It will be interesting to see  the diplomatic response  from  the rest of the world  and inside the US to Trump trashing WHO. 

Interestingly enough Senator  Lindsay Graham has echoed  Donald Trumps threats to withhold funding for the World Health Organization and stated it is now a done deal. 
 
* Trump threatens to hold WHO funding, then backtracks, amid search for scapegoat *
US president’s early inaction in pandemic has come under renewed scrutiny in recent days as coronavirus death toll grows

Donald Trump hunted for a new scapegoat on Tuesday in an increasingly frantic attempt to shift blame for thousands of American deaths from the coronavirus, accusing the World Health Organization (WHO) of having “called it wrong” and being “China-centric”.

The US president contradicted himself within minutes, first vowing to put “a very powerful hold” on his government’s funding of the WHO, then insisting such a freeze was only under consideration.

Trump’s early inaction has come under renewed scrutiny in the past day after a New York Times report that Peter Navarro, Trump’s trade adviser, warned in a memo in late January that the virus could put millions of Americans at risk and cost trillions of dollars. Susan Rice, a former national security adviser, told the Washington Post that Trump’s missteps “cost tens of thousands of American lives”.

The president has repeatedly denied responsibility and sought to blame China, the Obama administration and the media. On Tuesday, with the US death toll exceeding 12,000, he unleashed a tirade at the WHO, even though it raised the alarm in January, after which he made statements downplaying it and comparing it to the common flu.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/07/trump-coronavirus-who-funding-deaths-briefing
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...s-theres-going-to-be-no-money-for-who-in-next


----------



## sptrawler

The rest of the World probably agree with him Bas, this virus is going to go through sooner or later we are holding back the inevitable but it can't be done forever.
The only hope is a vaccine IMO.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> The rest of the World probably agree with him Bas,



 And you base this on  ???


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> And you base this on  ???



I base it on the fact everyone will be pretty pizzed off and the WHO tend to try and put a positive China spin on a pretty bad situation, that should never have happened.
It isn't as though someone sprinkled fairy dust over the Western World and a virus eventuated.
Human nature to blame someone and the WHO seems to be caught in the middle. Time will tell if it is justified.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Indeed !!  And just to reinforce your point Herr Hitler was overwhelmingly supported by the German people . Stalin as well was very popular as was Mussolini.  I'm sure we can find similar Votes of Support for  Peron, Castro,  and a score of other  authoritarian leaders.
> 
> Sad isn't it ? But if you  are ruthless enough, lie bigly enough and sack anyone who disagrees with you you can stop on top of the pile.



I don't think any of them were a democracy were they Bas? Pulling ridiculous comparisons doesn't support your argument, no one is forcing the voting public to vote for Trump or anyone else, yet he is extremely popular.
That has to be because he is doing something right, or the alternative candidates are doing something wrong.
Just because you, living half a World away, don't like him, doesn't in itself make him bad.
It may all boil down to the fact it may be yourself that has the issue, not him, who knows?
All we can go on, is the American people whose life he effects and how they vote.
How you perceive him has no bearing on anything and I doubt it will have any bearing on whether he attains office or not .


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> _Idiots in the democrats are doing everything in their power to cause as much damage to the President and the nation as possible_
> 
> And that statement is another absolute  piece of lying Trump BS.
> The  lying, thieving, idiot Trump is quite capable of doing far more damage to himself and the nation than any bunch of Dems..



I can counter if you like. But the dems are lying power hungry turds. It's not like they are hiding it.


----------



## dutchie

Biden Cuts Hole In Mask So He Can Still Sniff People's Hair
April 9th, 2020





388.2k Share
52k Share
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WASHINGTON, D.C.—Joe Biden has committed to wearing a mask in public to be a good example and to prevent the spread of COVID-19. Aides were disappointed and a little frightened, however, when Biden immediately cut a large hole in the middle of the mask so he could continue to invade people's personal space and sniff their hair, necks, and faces.

Staffers usually don't let Biden play with sharp objects, but he managed to find some safety scissors stashed behind the Metamucil in his campaign bus. Using the purple plastic scissors, he cut a large hole and then fitted the mask to his face, confident that he was protecting himself and others from the virus.

"That's better," he said as he cut a big hole for his schnoz. "Now I'm protecting against infection and I'm still able to give the ladies a good sniff. You know, in my day, I wore a mask just like this, as was the fashion at the time. All the kids at the pool would ask to play with the mask, and they'd run their fingers through it. In fact, one time, a gangster named CornPop was about to go cause some trouble at the sock hop, and I put some rocks in my mask and started swinging it around like a sling. You know, real Daniel and Goliath type stuff. He looked at me, tears in his eyes, and promised never again to go out and cause a ruckus."

"Anyway, that's why I'm your best choice for senator of the Roman Empire. Vote for Joe!" Biden suddenly came to and realized he was standing in a Walmart parking lot talking to a hobo.

https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-c...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## IFocus

You have to wonder about the Democrats selection if Biden is the best they can throw up but then the Republicans put up Trump.

Its really hard to understand the US given the massive range of talent country wide yet their politicians are beyond snake oil salespersons.


----------



## rederob

Every now and then something is leaked to the media before it becomes an official document for public consumption.
Below is what Trump will have been briefed on, but has been in constant denial in terms of its principal findings and recommendations.  It's a long read, but you will recognise the story line.

*Crimson Contagion 2019 Functional Exercise - Scenario Overview *
"The Crimson Contagion 2019 Functional Exercise scenario was based on a novel influenza A (H7N9) virus that originates in China and is antigenically distinct (not matched ) from stockpiled vaccines. The scenario starts off with tourists becoming ill in China with non- severe acute respiratory illness and then departing the Lhasa airport to other cities in China before flying back to their respective countries. During their flights home, additional tour group members, who were not ill when they embarked on their return flights from China ,begin to experience the onset of respiratory symptoms and some develop fever. Figure 3 below shows how the virus begins to spread around the world , as the ill tourists fly back to their countries of origin."​


----------



## kahuna1

Worthy ...

Very worthy ... Barb Walters a legend in USA media interview with Trump ... well until "The View" where she, showed her true nature.


----------



## moXJO

And thus ends the virus pandemic as business goes back to usual.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> And thus ends the virus pandemic as business goes back to usual.




Magical thinking at its finest.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Magical thinking at its finest.



Hey if the biggest worry we have right now is Trump it must be true


----------



## basilio

Business as usual. 

*South Dakota pork plant closes after over 200 workers contract Covid-19 *
About 240 employees at the plant contracted the virus, making up over half of the state’s positive cases

A major pork manufacturing plant in South Dakota has indefinitely shut down after more than 200 of its employees contracted Covid-19.

According to Smithfield, who runs the plant, the facility’s output represents up to 5% of US pork production, supplying 130m servings of food a week and employing 3,700 people. Over 550 independent farmers supplied the plant.

....In a statement, Smithfield’s chief executive, Kenneth Sullivan, warned of “severe” repercussions to the meat supply chain if more manufacturing plants see similar spreads of Covid-19.

“The closure of this facility, combined with a growing list of other protein plants that have shuttered across our industry, is pushing our country perilously close to the edge in terms of our meat supply,” Sullivan said in the statement. “It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running.”

Other meat manufacturers similarly shut down plant operations after multiple employees contracted Covid-19.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nt-closes-after-200-workers-contract-covid-19


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Business as usual.



Are you really Hillary Clinton hiding behind that profile 

Just be secure in the knowledge that one day Trump will leave office.


----------



## Knobby22

*Laissez faire capitalist and long time Trump supporter, Mish has really spitted the dummy* regarding the new Trump Council on Re-Opening America.
https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economics/trump-s-council-to-re-open-america-is-a-basket-of-buffoonery-R--TrMDx80elZ9FRu-fC

*Trump's Council to Re-Open America is a Basket of Buffoonery*







I can't blame him- as he points out ( I am summarising) if no one told him this was real he would have thought it was The Onion:

1. It includes no one in the medical profession.
2. Ivanka Trump - nepotism, no senate confirmation, does she get paid? - WTF doe Ivanka know about re-opening economies?
3. Jared Krushner - nepotism, etc as per Ivanka.
4. Bankruptsy King - Wilber Ross
5. Right wing politician.
6. An ex news reader.
7. Hedge fund manager.

_MISH: It would be difficult to assemble a more ridiculous team without purposely attempting to do so, but there it is._

Someone posted on twitter an alternate list for Trump to consider to give to the Onion (they've got no where to go!). (makes me laugh, bit of a play on their names)


----------



## wayneL

Mish, laissez-faire?


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Mish, laissez-faire?




What would you call him? He wants to privatise the police force for instance, would tie the dollar to gold and get rid of the Fed, hates Keynseans.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> What would you call him? He wants to privatise the police force for instance.



I will have to go back and see his latest views. I had always consider him LA years ago, but have question that recently.

Give me a moment to go and read some of his stuff


----------



## Knobby22

Even Fox are getting upset with Trump.
https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-h...wallace-enough-3rd-grade-name-calling-1497504


----------



## rederob

Knobby22 said:


> Even Fox are getting upset with Trump.
> https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-h...wallace-enough-3rd-grade-name-calling-1497504



Fake News?


----------



## basilio

*Revision of Donald Trumps nomenclature 
*
Bit of a heads up here.  On a number of occasions I have referred to Donald Trump as "Son of God".  After some feedback an discussion amongst  some ASF posters and other friends I have decided to withdraw that descripter and use a more appropriate nomenculture.

Why? A number of valid points were made that have caused the change of heart.

1) There was a feeling this phrase was a bit sacrilegious to people of good faith.  To Christian people Jesus Christ was the Son of God.  Using this phrase gratuitously to describe Donald Trump made them uneasy.

2) There was a feeling that  the phrase itself might mean very little to the many people who now have almost no religious affiliation or even history. Like who cares ??

3) There were other sentiments expressed on how the phrase could be viewed.  I use it in a savagely ironical sense reflecting the supreme narcissism of the Prez.  He however would probably  feel quite comfortable being described as an all powerful, all knowing deity who is rightfully the most powerful man on Earth.  And in this context probably millions of his most fervent evangelical supporters would agree , (practically literally ?), that he was indeed* The Son of God*.  So the irony could be easily lost.

4) Finally there was the potential of  needless confusion amongst many fervent Trump supporters about Donald Trumps status.  Why is he called the Son of God ?  Isn't he God himself ?  

So after some thought I have decided that when I am feeling particularly xised off over another Trump outrage I will refer to him as 
.....................................................*Spawn of Satan...*

It seems far more accurate   descriptor for this creature and  I suggest reflects the long  quasi religious history of the rise of the Anti-Christ. I think the spawn  has well and truly developed and has now created many more creatures in his image .


----------



## moXJO

This is a serious question. Do we have much from the polls on which way voters are leaning?


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> This is a serious question. Do we have much from the polls on which way voters are leaning?



It's close, Biden is more popular overall but in the battleground states he is about even with Trump. 

Trump has way more cash for advertising than Biden, so you would think he has the edge...but how long will he keep it with economic collapse, food shortages etc.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Trump has way more cash for advertising than Biden, so you would think he has the edge...but how long will he keep it with economic collapse, food shortages etc.



Trump has a lot of organizations against him. If the economy goes to sht he is toast. Which is probably why he pumped the stimulus lever extra hard.

Notice how every other president aged in looks considerably over their terms and Trump pretty much stayed the same. He probably had three times the stress of normal president as well. A few ways that could be interpreted.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Trump has a lot of organizations against him. If the economy goes to sht he is toast. Which is probably why he pumped the stimulus lever extra hard.
> 
> Notice how every other president aged in looks considerably over their terms and Trump pretty much stayed the same. He probably had three times the stress of normal president as well. A few ways that could be interpreted.



The one thing through all this that will be in Trumps favour IMO, is the fact he was taking China to task before all this began and the establishment seemed to be against his call to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.
Well after the supply issues that have surfaced throughout the Western World during this pandemic, I think there will be a lot of support for his ideology now, I can only go off the sentiment I am hearing here in Australia. 
One would assume the sentiment in the U.S and U.K will be similar.


----------



## kahuna1

On a lighter note ...

this should contain bio hazard warnings .... 
Melania Trump Easter message 




Strange I just tuned out, my sphincter relaxed with not good results, but I pictured a pole and Melania swinging around it begging for notes as she was not so long ago.


----------



## Humid

moXJO said:


> Trump has a lot of organizations against him. If the economy goes to sht he is toast. Which is probably why he pumped the stimulus lever extra hard.
> 
> Notice how every other president aged in looks considerably over their terms and Trump pretty much stayed the same. He probably had three times the stress of normal president as well. A few ways that could be interpreted.




Yes he has maintained the same tone of orange


----------



## dutchie

Obama has endorsed Biden.  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Says a lot about Obama!


----------



## basilio

Maybe this endorsement of Joe Biden for President and why  will carry more weight in the coming election. Biden would only need to turn 5% of the Republicans to vote for him to create a landslide.

* Republican Michigan mayor endorses Biden instead of 'deranged' Trump *
This article is more than *1 month old*
Michael Taylor, mayor of Sterling Heights, says he’s voting for former vice-president as Biden and Sanders battle for key state

As Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders compete for victory in Michigan, the biggest prize on offer in Tuesday’s slate of Democratic primaries, Biden has received a key and unexpected endorsement: from the Republican mayor of the state’s fourth-largest city.

“How could I look at those three kids and tell them I’m proud to support Donald Trump?” Michael Taylor, the mayor of Sterling Heights, wrote about his family on Twitter on Monday.

“I can’t. I won’t. I’m voting for Joe Biden tomorrow and endorsing him for president of the United States. I hope you’ll join me.”

Taylor also wrote that Biden was “the candidate who can unify all of the Democrats, and he’s the candidate who can appeal to moderates and Republicans like me who don’t want to see four more years of President Trump”.

.....Speaking to the Chicago Tribune, Taylor, 36, said: “I remember thinking this Trump thing is insane, but when it was down to him and Hillary, I kind of said: ‘Well, you are a Republican, and yeah he’s nuts, but maybe he’ll get better and you know he’s going to lower taxes.’

“I slowly talked myself into it. ‘He can’t seriously be this deranged once he gets in there,’ and he’s even more deranged now than I thought then. So, I take the blame. I voted for him.”

.....Taylor’s endorsement seems to embody the main problem facing Sanders, a self-proclaimed socialist: appealing to moderates, independents and Republicans seeking to dump Trump.

Speaking to the Guardian recently, the former Republican consultant Rick Wilson said Biden was “the one candidate who has shown the most ability to contrast with Trump in terms of a broader, bigger picture that isn’t just locked into what’s the hot flavor of Democratic messaging this year.

“He’s talking about that big American sense of unity and reconciliation and saying we’ve got to work with Republicans too.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/10/michigan-primary-joe-biden-bernie-sanders


----------



## basilio

Another first for Donald Trump.

*Trump adds his name to relief checks, delaying delivery*
The Washington Post reports that Donald Trump’s name will be added to to $1,200 relief checks being sent to 70 million Americans – and that *this “unprecedented” decision will “slow their delivery by several days.” *

_The Treasury Department has ordered President Trump’s name be printed on stimulus checks the Internal Revenue Service is rushing to send to tens of millions of Americans, a process that is expected to slow their delivery by several days, senior agency officials said.

The unprecedented decision, finalized late Monday, means that when recipients open the $1,200 paper checks the IRS is scheduled to begin sending to 70 million Americans in coming days, “President Donald J. Trump” will appear on the left side of the payment.
*It will be the first time a president’s signature appears on an IRS disbursement, *whether a routine refund or one of the handful of checks the government has issued to taxpayers in recent decades either to stimulate a down economy or share the dividends of a strong one.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...082a2cd32a6e15#block-5e965ce58f082a2cd32a6e15_


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> Obama has endorsed Biden.  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> 
> Says a lot about Obama!




So you expected him to endorse Trump ?


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> So you expected him to endorse Trump ?



No. I expected him to say "Oh no, is Biden the best we have got?  We (the Democrats) are f##ked!"


----------



## Humid

They're not just septic tanks because it rymes


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> No. I expected him to say "Oh no, is Biden the best we have got?  We (the Democrats) are f##ked!"




A former Vice President must be better than a money obsessed mogul who won't show his tax returns.


----------



## PZ99

dutchie said:


> No. I expected him to say "Oh no, is Biden the best we have got?  We (the Democrats) are f##ked!"



They've would've been fkd if he _didn't_ endorse Biden. Their biggest asset is it's not Hillary.


----------



## sptrawler

From memory, weren't the #metoo mob after Joe Biden for something? 
Oh well it will give them something to chase other than Trump, should be fun.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> From memory, weren't the #metoo mob after Joe Biden for something?
> Oh well it will give them something to chase other than Trump, should be fun.




As opposed to all the allegations against Donald where he paid people to shut up ?


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> As opposed to all the allegations against Donald where he paid people to shut up ?



Hey don't shoot the messenger, I was just saying.
Maybe Joe's got plenty of cash as well.


----------



## macca

Biden the candidate, Hilary the back up............................

If successful at election, what price Biden steps down with ill health/dementia


----------



## dutchie

People suffering from TDS support a man with dementia for President ha ha ha ha ha.


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> People suffering from TDS support a man with dementia for President ha ha ha ha ha.



Leave Trump alone.


----------



## kahuna1

macca said:


> If successful at election, what price Biden steps down with ill health/dementia




I am sorry I forgot the question .


----------



## Knobby22




----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


>



This just makes me like him more.
The comedy value of that big orange ball is just to good to pass up.
 The guy is an endless source  of memes and phrases.
Who can forget:
Stable genius
Maga
Wake up punchy.

There's some crackers on here
https://www.shortlist.com/news/most-ridiculous-trump-quotes-ever

And the endless meltdowns, oh the meltdowns... The guy is golden.
I'll miss it when he is gone.


----------



## dutchie

I wish Scomo would be this generous....

Trump Announces He Has Hidden 5 Golden Tickets Among Stimulus Checks

https://babylonbee.com/news/trumps-says-5-golden-tickets-to-be-hidden-among-stimulus-checks


----------



## PZ99

dutchie said:


> I wish Scomo would be this generous....
> 
> Trump Announces He Has Hidden 5 Golden Tickets Among Stimulus Checks
> 
> https://babylonbee.com/news/trumps-says-5-golden-tickets-to-be-hidden-among-stimulus-checks



I wish Trump would be that generous


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> This just makes me like him more.
> The comedy value of that big orange ball is just to good to pass up.
> The guy is an endless source  of memes and phrases.
> Who can forget:
> Stable genius
> Maga
> Wake up punchy.
> 
> There's some crackers on here
> https://www.shortlist.com/news/most-ridiculous-trump-quotes-ever
> 
> And the endless meltdowns, oh the meltdowns... The guy is golden.
> I'll miss it when he is gone.




I'm with you.
I want him to win the next Presidency. I would far rather enjoy watching him run the country for another 4 years, it's a reality show that's has real world consequences.
Imagine what he would do off the leash of not having to listen to the Republicans and worry about getting voted in. It would be amazing (from a distance).

(Sure, I know some here would say what about the American people? Well if they elect him then it's their call, why should I care more about them than say the Argentinians? The country is still being run, despite him).


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I'm with you.
> I want him to win the next Presidency. I would far rather enjoy watching him run the country for another 4 years, it's a reality show that's has real world consequences.
> Imagine what he would do off the leash of not having to listen to the Republicans and worry about getting voted in. It would be amazing (from a distance).
> 
> (Sure, I know some here would say what about the American people? Well if they elect him then it's their call, why should I care more about them than say the Argentinians? The country is still being run, despite him).



Fact is he has done better than the last few Presidents. Which is embarrassing for both sides.
For world affairs both Obama and Bush were the worst in that order.

UN needed a shake up.
Russia and China gained to much ground during Obama's reign.

And manufacturing does indeed need to be decentralized. Remember when Obama said it was never coming back and you would need a magic wand.

And Bush made a mess through the ME.
Trump seemed to have backed off now they have oil in the US.


----------



## moXJO

I wonder if he makes himself look orange on purpose?


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> I wonder if he makes himself look orange on purpose?



Maybe he is a clown!


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I wonder if he makes himself look orange on purpose?



Well for all his clowning around and the ridiculous way he phrases things, the general thrust of his agenda has been spot on, what do magicians say get the audience focusing on anything other than what you are doing.
The media and the opposition has focused on his outrageous behavior, but when push comes to shove, he will be the only one who can say I told you so.
And no one can argue with that.
How much media footage will he have, of being criticised for putting on tarrifs, to get pharmaceutical companies to bring manufacturing back from China?
He may be a clown, but I wouldn't put my house on it.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Maybe he is a clown!



Everyone thought so when he went on about building a wall, for border control, well his opponents will look the clowns now IMO.
Funny how the clown is the only one holding any aces, it will be interesting to watch how his opponents try to play it, without blowing their feet off at every turn.
Just my opinion from someone with no interest, but clearing away the white noise, as the theatre doesn't interest me just the basics.
Trumps main two platforms were, bring manufacturing back home and border control.
Seems like two current agendas to me,  I would quests the majority of Americans will agree with him.


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> No. I expected him to say "Oh no, is Biden the best we have got?  We (the Democrats) are f##ked!"




*Norwegian Psychiatrist Claims Joe Biden is Suffering From “Dementia”*
Says condition has worsened “at galloping speed.”

https://summit.news/2020/04/22/norwegian-psychiatrist-claims-joe-biden-is-suffering-from-dementia/


----------



## rederob

dutchie said:


> *Norwegian Psychiatrist Claims Joe Biden is Suffering From “Dementia”*



I guess being a step away from the worst effects is better than suffering from MAGAlomania.


----------



## Humid

sptrawler said:


> Everyone thought so when he went on about building a wall, for border control, well his opponents will look the clowns now IMO.
> Funny how the clown is the only one holding any aces, it will be interesting to watch how his opponents try to play it, without blowing their feet off at every turn.
> Just my opinion from someone with no interest, but clearing away the white noise, as the theatre doesn't interest me just the basics.
> Trumps main two platforms were, bring manufacturing back home and border control.
> Seems like two current agendas to me,  I would quests the majority of Americans will agree with him.



Bollocks
Tax cuts for the rich just like will happen here
He doesn't have to attack workers conditions and pay because they are long gone


----------



## sptrawler

Humid said:


> Bollocks



WHY? he does want a wall and he does want manufacturing back to the U.S. and has pushed for both throughout his tenure.
So what is bollocks about the statement? His platform is still as relevant now as it was when he was elected, which is what my post said.
Maybe you just had to get your bollocks out?



Humid said:


> Tax cuts for the rich just like will happen here



 Agree.




Humid said:


> He doesn't have to attack workers conditions and pay because they are long gone



Agree.


----------



## moXJO

Humid said:


> Bollocks
> Tax cuts for the rich just like will happen here
> He doesn't have to attack workers conditions and pay because they are long gone



Minimum wage is up. 
Wages are up.
Labor market is tight after he tightened immigration.


----------



## Humid

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/06/economy/trump-obama-jobs-comparison/index.html


----------



## Humid

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/439805-wage-growth-shaping-up-as-key-2020-factor-for-trump


----------



## moXJO

Those links are crap and that's total jobs.

This link is less cheerleading for any particular president:

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mar...-obama-bush-administrations-2019-9-1028833119


----------



## Humid

It's a Trump thread
Spot the cheerleader


----------



## moXJO

Humid said:


> It's a Trump thread
> Spot the cheerleader



Dude, I literally posted a picture of trump as an angel. 
You can see me coming a mile off.


----------



## macca

dutchie said:


> *Norwegian Psychiatrist Claims Joe Biden is Suffering From “Dementia”*
> Says condition has worsened “at galloping speed.”
> 
> https://summit.news/2020/04/22/norwegian-psychiatrist-claims-joe-biden-is-suffering-from-dementia/




That is the plan Dutchie, Hilary will be his running mate.

Guess who steps up once it is disclosed after the election..........................


----------



## Humid

moXJO said:


> Dude, I literally posted a picture of trump as an angel.
> You can see me coming a mile off.




Everyone needs a hero


----------



## moXJO

The "S" isn't for super, but meh....


----------



## Humid

sptrawler said:


> WHY? he does want a wall and he does want manufacturing back to the U.S. and has pushed for both throughout his tenure.
> So what is bollocks about the statement? His platform is still as relevant now as it was when he was elected, which is what my post said.
> Maybe you just had to get your bollocks out?
> 
> Agree.
> 
> 
> Agree.



Bollocks because he succeeded in neither


----------



## PZ99

moXJO said:


> The "S" isn't for super, but meh....



I like that pic...
It's got a big red 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 underneath it suggesting Uncle *S*am is full of last nights' dinner.

That's what the "S" is for right ?


----------



## Humid

There are more important things than living.

— Dan Patrick
The Texas lieutenant governor


----------



## basilio

Interesting observations from former US Secretary of State Madelaine Albright

*Coronavirus crisis calls for unity not blame, former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright says*
Former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright is urging countries to not become divided in the fight against coronavirus, and cooperate during the rebuilding that will follow.

She's praised Australia's efforts to contain the pandemic, but says she's only beginning to see similar cooperation between federal and state governments in the US.

..."We cannot just decide that it's the end of the world. There are ways that we have to change the way we operate [and] understand the interconnectedness," she says.

"We're blaming the Chinese for what happened. But the bottom line is we depend on the masks that they make. If they are the ones that invent the vaccine, will we say no?"

....She says she would be explaining that every country — even one as big as the US — needs partners.

"You can't solve these problems alone. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that climate change affects everybody, or nuclear proliferation, or pandemics, and that therefore diplomacy is the language where we try to develop partnerships and work together."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...right-calls-for-cooperation-china-us/12176496


----------



## basilio

Riffing from the worlds most stable genius  

* Medical experts denounce Trump's latest 'dangerous' suggestion to treat Covid-19 *
Doctors warn president’s musings on disinfectant as a cure for coronavirus could lead to death

Donald Trump has stunned viewers by suggesting that people could receive injections of disinfectant to cure the coronavirus, a notion one medical expert described as “jaw-dropping”.

At Thursday’s White House coronavirus task force briefing, the US president discussed new government research on how the virus reacts to different temperatures, climates and surfaces.

“And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute,” Trump said. “One minute! And is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So, that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant


----------



## basilio

There was some direct expert response to the  Presidents genius  insights.

_Walter Shaub, the former director of the Office of Government Ethics, added: “It is incomprehensible to me that a moron like this holds the highest office in the land and that there exist people stupid enough to think this is OK. I can’t believe that in 2020 I have to caution anyone listening to the president that injecting disinfectant could kill you.”
_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant


----------



## rederob

basilio said:


> There was some direct expert response to the  Presidents genius  insights.
> 
> _Walter Shaub, the former director of the Office of Government Ethics, added: “It is incomprehensible to me that a moron like this holds the highest office in the land and that there exist people stupid enough to think this is OK. I can’t believe that in 2020 I have to caution anyone listening to the president that injecting disinfectant could kill you.”
> _
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant



I was more curious about how sunlight was going to be shined inside our bodies.
Let's face it, at least they have a  deficient leader who is trying to open up the country as soon as practicable, while Scomo has a bunch of experts that give consistent mixed messages.


----------



## Smurf1976

sptrawler said:


> How much media footage will he have, of being criticised for putting on tarrifs, to get pharmaceutical companies to bring manufacturing back from China?



I'm not at all keen on Trump's narcissism and bully boy approach but he's right on some things certainly because no, it's not at all a good idea to be an economy reliant on resource extraction and low value services. That's Third World by its very nature. It makes a few rich in the short term but slowly runs down the country as we've seen throughout the West.

Likewise I've nothing against China but we do need to stop being so reliant on them for manufactured goods. All we're doing is gaining short term wealth by depletion of our resources and carrying capacity whilst they gain long term value out of the deal. Some get rich today but it's not doing anyone's kids in the West any favours.


----------



## moXJO

rederob said:


> I was more curious about how sunlight was going to be shined inside our bodies.



Was he suggesting ultraviolet blood Irradiation?


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> Interesting observations from former US Secretary of State Madelaine Albright
> 
> *Coronavirus crisis calls for unity not blame, former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright says*
> Former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright is urging countries to not become divided in the fight against coronavirus, and cooperate during the rebuilding that will follow.
> 
> She's praised Australia's efforts to contain the pandemic, but says she's only beginning to see similar cooperation between federal and state governments in the US.
> 
> ..."We cannot just decide that it's the end of the world. There are ways that we have to change the way we operate [and] understand the interconnectedness," she says.
> 
> "We're blaming the Chinese for what happened. But the bottom line is we depend on the masks that they make. If they are the ones that invent the vaccine, will we say no?"
> 
> ....She says she would be explaining that every country — even one as big as the US — needs partners.
> 
> "You can't solve these problems alone. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that climate change affects everybody, or nuclear proliferation, or pandemics, and that therefore diplomacy is the language where we try to develop partnerships and work together."
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...right-calls-for-cooperation-china-us/12176496



I listened to most of the interview last night travelling to a night job. Seriously impressive person.  Worth a listen if anyone wants to hear how the world really works. 
The Middle East discussion was very interesting.


----------



## explod

He's saying we should take insecticide for covid.

I say he should be sent to a lunatic asylum


----------



## moXJO

PZ99 said:


> I like that pic...
> It's got a big red
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 102581
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> underneath it suggesting Uncle *S*am is full of last nights' dinner.
> 
> That's what the "S" is for right ?



There's a few "S" words we could associate with trump

Hey I'm having a hard enough time cheerleading here.


----------



## moXJO

Unedited speech here.

Ok, 50mins and 20 seconds in. Reporters start going in for the kill.

Didn't want to watch the lot. He asked a lot of dumb sht.


----------



## orr

explod said:


> He's saying we should take insecticide for covid.
> 
> I say he should be sent to a lunatic asylum




Help/forgive me on the numbers here Plod.  The 25th Amendment?? thank the  farrrrk for their Consistution... Straight Jacket and the white coats by morning our time... Thank god it's over...


----------



## Humid

moXJO said:


> There's a few "S" words we could associate with trump
> 
> Hey I'm having a hard enough time cheerleading here.



What have you got on under that skirt?


----------



## sptrawler

Well here is the latest take on our Donald, by Bob Carr, one of the most respected Labor Party elders.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/why...n-for-another-four-years-20200422-p54m4w.html


----------



## Smurf1976

explod said:


> He's saying we should take insecticide for covid.



Depending on the insecticide chosen it may well work to kill the virus.

It would kill the host as well but hey, that's just collateral damage right?


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> Depending on the insecticide chosen it may well work to kill the virus.
> 
> It would kill the host as well but hey, that's just collateral damage right?



I would think with the U.S modus operandi, they would just let the virus run , until it becomes a problem. That probably means until some actor dies from it.
Not saying it is nice, but it is the way the U.S seems to roll, very different to us.


----------



## moXJO

Humid said:


> What have you got on under that skirt?



Mainly hair.


----------



## basilio

Fascinating isn't it ? The Prez  publicly muses  about injecting  disinfectant to kill the COVID virus in his nation Wide Press Conference.  Suggests that perhaps this should be investigated as a medical solution ?

Hours later he says he was just being "sarcastic" .  Just geeing up the Fake News Press.

How special one must be to be able to redefine reality and force everyone else except the "Fake Press" to agree or at least STFU.

Incidentally it's well worth checking out the  immediate response of medical expert Dr Birx as The Prez riffed on about injecting disinfectant and flooding the internal organs with UV light..

You can see her soul leaving body at the 34 sec  point.  




But no.  He was never serious... He was just being sarcastic..


----------



## basilio

This may shed some light of why The Prez was geed up about testing disinfectants to kill COVID virus
 
* Revealed: leader of group peddling bleach as coronavirus 'cure' wrote to Trump this week *
Mark Grenon wrote to Trump saying chlorine dioxide ‘can rid the body of Covid-19’ days before the president promoted disinfectant as treatment

The leader of the most prominent group in the US peddling potentially lethal industrial bleach as a “miracle cure” for coronavirus wrote to Donald Trump at the White House this week.

In his letter, Mark Grenon told Trump that chlorine dioxide – a powerful bleach used in industrial processes such as textile manufacturing that can have fatal side-effects when drunk – is “a wonderful detox that can kill 99% of the pathogens in the body”. He added that it “can rid the body of Covid-19”.

A few days after Grenon dispatched his letter, Trump went on national TV at his daily coronavirus briefing at the White House on Thursday and promoted the idea that disinfectant could be used as a treatment for the virus. To the astonishment of medical experts, the US president said that disinfectant “knocks it out in a minute. One minute!”

He went on to say: “Is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus


----------



## cynic

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlin...-fills-slot-for-presidential-pet/#more-177970


----------



## basilio

The madness/stupidity of Donald Trump  publicly considering injecting disinfectants as cure for the COVID virus is,  IMV, a turning point in his Presidency.
The ridiculous efforts to then say he was being "sarcastic" rather than serious  just emphasized the basic point.
I think this  will harden the views of the 5-10% of Republicans who  are considering voting for Joe Biden in the elections.  He is just too much of a menace to be allowed to continue in office.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...onavirus-disinfectant-sarcastic-tipping-point


----------



## basilio

In the early 50's the story  of  Senator Joe McCarthys pursuit of Reds in the US State Department was daily television. It finally blew up in a historic moment that exposed the Senators deceit and dishonesty.


----------



## moXJO

So turns out there is a Aytu BioScience



Seems to be getting play. So what trump was saying was an actual procedure.
Oh and zinc chloride can be used as a disinfectant.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsro...benefit-of-intravenous-zinc-in-covid-19-fight
A world-first trial will see researchers from Austin Health and the University of Melbourne use intravenous zinc to fight the symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19).

The trial will be led by Dr Joseph Ischia from Austin Health, along with Dr Oneel Patel from the Department of Surgery at the University of Melbourne, who has a long history of investigating the protective effects of intravenous zinc against organ damage induced by lack of oxygen.

Dr Ischia said COVID-19 is especially dangerous because it replicates inside a patient’s body which can lead to respiratory conditions like bronchitis and pneumonia.

“If COVID-19 enters a patient’s lungs then they often need to be placed on a ventilator to help their breathing and, in severe cases, COVID-19 can cause multiple organ failure and brain injury due to a lack of oxygen,” Dr Ischia said.

Dr Patel said studies have shown that zinc is very effective at slowing the rate that similar viruses such as SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) and common cold (a type of coronavirus) replicate in the body.

“Our published studies have also shown that high doses of zinc can protect vital organs such as the heart, kidneys and liver against the damage caused by a lack of oxygen,” Dr Patel said.

The clinical trial has been fast-tracked to test whether receiving a daily injection of zinc chloride will benefit patients with coronavirus.

“There is currently no specific treatment available for patients who have COVID-19 and are at high risk of respiratory failure, which means this study has the potential to have an enormous positive impact on their clinical outcomes,” Dr Ischia said.

“Importantly, we hope to show that we can save lives by limiting the impact of the symptoms. We are expecting to have preliminary results of the trial available after only seven days so we will know very quickly how effective this treatment is."

The trial is the culmination of a rapid collaboration between surgeon scientists as well as intensive care, infectious diseases and respiratory medicine doctors at Austin Health, working with the Australian pharmaceutical firm, Phebra.

Phebra Chief Executive Officer Dr Mal Eutick said intravenous (IV) zinc injections, manufactured at Phebra’s multi-purpose sterile injectables plant in Sydney, would be used in the trial.

“Zinc has been proven to be effective in treating severe pneumonia and other viruses although not COVID-19 to date. This trial is an extraordinary opportunity to discover if IV zinc can help us respond to the current pandemic,” Dr Eutick said

“If successful this could save lives and with this trial we should know in a short time frame. In particular, it could be very important for those high risk elderly patients and also help reduce the level of general anxiety in the community.”

However, both Dr Ischia and Dr Eutick warned of the need to manage the risk of zinc overdose for patients.

“Zinc can be toxic and it will be carefully administered as part of the trial to ensure patients are safe,” Dr Ischia explained.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The madness/stupidity of Donald Trump  publicly considering injecting disinfectants as cure for the COVID virus is,  IMV, a turning point in his Presidency.
> The ridiculous efforts to then say he was being "sarcastic" rather than serious  just emphasized the basic point.
> I think this  will harden the views of the 5-10% of Republicans who  are considering voting for Joe Biden in the elections.  He is just too much of a menace to be allowed to continue in office.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...onavirus-disinfectant-sarcastic-tipping-point



He shouldn't have backed away. These are actual procedures. It's not like he said "inject Mr muscle to knock out the corona". People are stupid though.

I'm not sure who is more stupid at this point. Those bleating about procedures they don't know about. Or Trump backtracking.


----------



## sptrawler

Rule Number 1: Bas and Rob are right.
moXJO if you wish to post anything pro Trump, refer to rule 1.
Sounds like my wife.


----------



## basilio

*Biden Claps Back At Trump’s Disinfectant Comments In Twitter’s Most-Liked Tweet This Week*
Lisette VoytkoForbes Staff
Business
I cover breaking news.


*TOPLINE*
Joe Biden asked Twitter users to not drink bleach⁠—one day after President Trump suggested scientists investigate whether they could inject coronavirus patients with disinfectants as a treatment⁠—in a tweet that received the most likes this week, according to data compiled by the social media tracking firm NewsWhip.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisett...ters-most-liked-tweet-this-week/#7291cac930c0


----------



## basilio

Back to Barnum and Bailey


----------



## moXJO

And then my video disappeared. Wondering why?
Doesn't fit the narrative according to tds delirium:

*Aytu BioScience Suspended From Twitter, Videos Banned From YouTube Due To New York Times Reporter*

*https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2020/...outube-due-to-new-york-times-reporter/108037/*






Being willing to scrub a medical company to fit the narrative is next level.


----------



## moXJO

This treatment has been around for a long time. I find it mind boggling what people are willing to do just to sht on Trump. 
I know who is worse. There's only so much internet scrubbing you can do.


----------



## Logique

I hope Sleepy Joe's running mate is competent!







> *Tara Reade says Joe Biden sexually assaulted her. She deserves to be heard*
> Katie Halper. The Guardian Fri 24 Apr 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-tara-reade-deserves-to-be-heard-katie-halper
> 
> I published the former aide’s accusation against the Democratic presidential candidate on my podcast after other media outlets ignored her..it took the New York Times 19 days to cover Reade’s story..Tara wants Biden to step down, understandably, as do others who see him as a disastrous candidate..


----------



## IFocus

Lets do a test or check on Trumps injecting disinfectant idea as to what he really meant you know absolute proof on the merit and if he really meant it.

Just zoom in on that lady (Dr Deborah Birx) who is the Corona virus response coordinator its just gold, indisputable look of horror at the leader of the USA saying BS.


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> Lets do a test or check on Trumps injecting disinfectant idea as to what he really meant you know absolute proof on the merit and if he really meant it.
> 
> Just zoom in on that lady (Dr Deborah Birx) who is the Corona virus response coordinator its just gold, indisputable look of horror at the leader of the USA saying BS.




Indeed..
But  is fact or evidence a part of this conversation ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Indeed..
> But  is fact or evidence a part of this conversation ?



Not when you post.

zinc chloride by the way......


----------



## PZ99

"We haven't found the smoking gun" 

Dr Birx.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Not when you post.
> 
> zinc chloride by the way......




Evidence or fact is not what I or anyone else says. It comes from reputable sources with evidence to back up statements. For example when Donald Trump said his inauguration was the biggest ever seen in US history the fact that there were pictures of past inaugarations  which showed this was untrue was just disregarded.

When  Donald Trump can't dispute the facts he turns to trashing the source ie Fake News media. In fact his whole  political play has been to systematically destroy the legitimacy of any organisation or person who criticizes him or calls him to account and boost anyone who praises his supreme intellect and incredible skills.

*On the current issue it was absolutely and totally clear, and totally understood by all who watched,  that Donald Trump was suggesting that injecting or ingesting disinfectants  to kill the COIVID virus should be considered by doctors as an experiment.  *And yet a mere few hours later he attempts to say this a sarcastic comment. No none believes that pullback  because it just isn't true.

 What was proven through the incident  however was :
1) *Donald Trump has minimal basic scientific knowledge.* Not understanding that disinfectants are only suitable for surface use and a poison if ingested  is  very basic knowledge.

2) *Donald Trump will never acknowledge a mistake.  *When it was  made overwhelmingly clear how wrong and dangerous his comments were he attempted to say it was a "sarcastic"  comment.
The films, the responses from everyone who saw it show this was just a fabrication to save him from saying  "Oops - my bad"

3) *Donald Trumps supporters will support anything he says or does no matter what. *As moXjo and others here have proven, they will follow this creature up hill, down dale and over a cliff.  It doesn't matter how stupid, wrong or  criminally dangerous the action.  The catch cry is always the same

*I will follow him... he is my destiny*


----------



## basilio




----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Evidence or fact is not what I or anyone else says. It comes from reputable sources with evidence to back up statements. For example when Donald Trump said his inauguration was the biggest ever seen in US history the fact that there were pictures of past inaugarations  which showed this was untrue was just disregarded.
> 
> When  Donald Trump can't dispute the facts he turns to trashing the source ie Fake News media. In fact his whole  political play has been to systematically destroy the legitimacy of any organisation or person who criticizes him or calls him to account and boost anyone who praises his supreme intellect and incredible skills.
> 
> *On the current issue it was absolutely and totally clear, and totally understood by all who watched,  that Donald Trump was suggesting that injecting or ingesting disinfectants  to kill the COIVID virus should be considered by doctors as an experiment.  *And yet a mere few hours later he attempts to say this a sarcastic comment. No none believes that pullback  because it just isn't true.
> 
> What was proven through the incident  however was :
> 1) *Donald Trump has minimal basic scientific knowledge.* Not understanding that disinfectants are only suitable for surface use and a poison if ingested  is  very basic knowledge.
> 
> 2) *Donald Trump will never acknowledge a mistake.  *When it was  made overwhelmingly clear how wrong and dangerous his comments were he attempted to say it was a "sarcastic"  comment.
> The films, the responses from everyone who saw it show this was just a fabrication to save him from saying  "Oops - my bad"
> 
> 3) *Donald Trumps supporters will support anything he says or does no matter what. *As moXjo and others here have proven, they will follow this creature up hill, down dale and over a cliff.  It doesn't matter how stupid, wrong or  criminally dangerous the action.  The catch cry is always the same
> 
> *I will follow him... he is my destiny*



You are Donald trump.
You post the exact same lies.
You make up the exact same stories.
You continue posting bull**** after I post information to disprove.
You follow a deranged group of like minded liars who can't take 5mins to google to see if it's indeed true.
And you post endless b.s. posts. I actually hope he doesn't win. Sick of the spewed propaganda.

 All these supposed "smart" anti Trumpers are actual dumb as dogsht when it comes to facts themselves.

There's a difference between not liking a bad president and someone that acts as bad as a bad president.

I have never said trump isn't a liar.
Never said he is a good guy.
And I'd support a sensible option if they came along.
I won't lick up spoon fed b.s. and call it ice cream though.
And if you look back all through this thread, where did all those career ending  "outrages" go?

Biden stands accused of rape by a democrat and the #metoo movement bent over for him.

Never mind sure we can bury it along with everything else.


----------



## PZ99

hehe @moXJO 

If Donald Trump loses don't think for one moment the spewed propaganda will stop.

It'll be quite the opposite because it'll be *from* the opposite


----------



## sptrawler

There is one thing for sure, if Trump loses it will be back to kissing China's bum again and the media will get back to talking about Hollywood and what Brad Pitt is up to while the status quo goes back to normal.


----------



## moXJO

PZ99 said:


> hehe @moXJO
> 
> If Donald Trump loses don't think for one moment the spewed propaganda will stop.
> 
> It'll be quite the opposite because it'll be *from* the opposite



I don't have to post it though.

The company I posted above was actually scrubbed from youtube and Twitter before everyone started to notice. This company has nothing to do with trump, it's a medical company. I find it disturbing what people are willing to do to take Trump down.

Same as that kid with the maga hat, Covington or whatever. It was absolute lies against some kid just to create a narrative.

I don't see how any of these people that latch onto these lies are any better than Trump.
If they don't like him here's an idea: Vote him out.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> I don't see how any of these people that latch onto these lies are any better than Trump.
> If they don't like him here's an idea: Vote him out.




But it's a lot of fun pointing out his obvious errors and stupid comments.

Here's an idea, if you don't want to be laughed at, don't act like an idiot.

No one is laughing at Morrison because he's taken charge and by and large he's doing a dignified and efficient job.

I'd rather live here than in the US at the moment, much as I respect most of the American people.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> But it's a lot of fun pointing out his obvious errors and stupid comments.
> 
> Here's an idea, if you don't want to be laughed at, don't act like an idiot.
> 
> No one is laughing at Morrison because he's taken charge and by and large he's doing a dignified and efficient job.
> 
> I'd rather live here than in the US at the moment, much as I respect most of the American people.



I have no problem with taking the piss. The guy is a meme factory. Got no problem:
Not liking the guy.
Laughing at his failures.
Hating the republicans.
Pulling him up when he lies (and I'm not oblivious to the fact that it's every time his mouth opens).

But the limit is fake news peddled as truth and internet scrubs to hide the truth. Either side. 
People start to believe the lies. 

I actually trust Morrison less now then I did before. And I have to say that a few of our state premieres enjoyed their police state's a bit to much for my liking. But it's like I said.
You get just enough good to not notice the bad they just slipped you under the table.


----------



## basilio

Rewriting reality one Press Conference at a time.
Apparently the Trump Administration was reducing the US deficit until the corona virus hit.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/27/21239163/trump-coronavirus-briefing-national-deficit-lie-debunked


----------



## Logique

Different standard when it's a Democrat in the headlights. Different story now.
Yes, this demented hair-sniffer should have _his _finger on the nuclear button!

*What Joe Biden Didn’t Say in His Tara Reade Denial*
Emma Green, The Atlantic - 1 May 2020
_"..During the Kavanaugh hearings, he [Biden] stated clearly a number of times that *he believed Christine Blasey Ford’s account should essentially be treated as true*. 
Biden said she “gave courageous, credible and powerful testimony,” according 
to the Associated Press. 
He told the Today show that *she “should be given the benefit of the doubt ” in part because “it takes enormous courage for a woman to come forward*, under the bright lights of millions of people watching, and relive something that happened to her.
” And he told reporters that “for a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the* presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real*, whether or not she forgets facts...”_


----------



## SirRumpole

Logique said:


> Different standard when it's a Democrat in the headlights. Different story now.
> Yes, this demented hair-sniffer should have _his _finger on the nuclear button!
> 
> *What Joe Biden Didn’t Say in His Tara Reade Denial*
> Emma Green, The Atlantic - 1 May 2020
> _"..During the Kavanaugh hearings, he [Biden] stated clearly a number of times that *he believed Christine Blasey Ford’s account should essentially be treated as true*.
> Biden said she “gave courageous, credible and powerful testimony,” according
> to the Associated Press.
> He told the Today show that *she “should be given the benefit of the doubt ” in part because “it takes enormous courage for a woman to come forward*, under the bright lights of millions of people watching, and relive something that happened to her.
> ” And he told reporters that “for a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the* presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real*, whether or not she forgets facts...”_




Another gold digger looking for the limelight imo.

All the years Biden was VP, there was never a whiff of this story, but now he's running for Pres suddenly she comes out.

Maybe she should declare how much she's been paid for saying this, it's just too convenient imo.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Another gold digger looking for the limelight imo.
> 
> All the years Biden was VP, there was never a whiff of this story, but now he's running for Pres suddenly she comes out.
> 
> Maybe she should declare how much she's been paid for saying this, it's just too convenient imo.



We're you of similar opinion with kavanaugh?

Blasey Ford's testimony had zero evidence, all the supposed witnesses said they were not there. The witnesses were then bullied. She couldn't remember what house. She was a democrats vs a Republican.
And a lot of members here were calling it legit. 

This is democrat on democrat. Biden has multiple pictures/video  of him biting, sniffing, touching, kissing women and young girls.
The campaign against Kavanaugh was brutal.
The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds


----------



## Humid

Not to sure which is right or left in this country at the moment


----------



## joeno

Left or right, America is a phony lying warmongering country ever since the turn of the 20th century. It was built based on freedom equality and free market. We see nothing of it now. It is a country that has regressed not progressed.

Free market capitalism? HELL NO. They unabashedly are proud of market manipulation. 6 TRILLION printed to "ease" the financial market. JPOW and Trump ADMIT to doing all they can to prevent a cyclical drop in share prices. This is what a communist country would do, not a capitalist one.

Democracy? HELL NO. It's a 2 party oligarchy like Russia. The presidents are elites or people with deep establishment roots.

Freedom/truthfulness of press? HELL NO. Their media is the epitome of fake news. Half the nonsense that is reported is pure conjecture and bias. They take sides and make everything racial. It is utterly disgusting.

Honest and moral government? HELL. NO. They lied about Iraq WMDs. They propped up regimes all over the world (mostly ME and SA) including Al Qaeda. They are lying now about the Coronavirus. They lie about everything.


----------



## basilio

Logique said:


> Yes, this demented hair-sniffer should have _his _finger on the nuclear button!




I thought he was already there ?


----------



## wayneL

joeno said:


> Left or right, America is a phony lying warmongering country ever since the turn of the 20th century. It was built based on freedom equality and free market. We see nothing of it now. It is a country that has regressed not progressed.
> 
> Free market capitalism? HELL NO. They unabashedly are proud of market manipulation. 6 TRILLION printed to "ease" the financial market. JPOW and Trump ADMIT to doing all they can to prevent a cyclical drop in share prices. This is what a communist country would do, not a capitalist one.
> 
> Democracy? HELL NO. It's a 2 party oligarchy like Russia. The presidents are elites or people with deep establishment roots.
> 
> Freedom/truthfulness of press? HELL NO. Their media is the epitome of fake news. Half the nonsense that is reported is pure conjecture and bias. They take sides and make everything racial. It is utterly disgusting.
> 
> Honest and moral government? HELL. NO. They lied about Iraq WMDs. They propped up regimes all over the world (mostly ME and SA) including Al Qaeda. They are lying now about the Coronavirus. They lie about everything.



A Corporatocracy, not a capitalist country at all any more (just like Oz).

Hasn't been for decades (neither have we).


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> A Corporatocracy, not a capitalist country at all any more (just like Oz).
> 
> Hasn't been for decades (neither have we).



Absolutely, keep the plebs running round in circles chasing shadows, while the house is being cleaned out.
Sad really.


----------



## Humid

Rely on external parties for expertise and policy advice and you get puppets......muppets


----------



## Logique

eww look at this guy in action


----------



## sptrawler

Humid said:


> Rely on external parties for expertise and policy advice and you get puppets......muppets



On all sides of politics, that's why it is important, to be open minded IMO.


----------



## Logique

If a site visitor goes to General Chat, this thread is invisible, unless they notice it on the site thread index.
I suppose workplace harassment is invisible unless management sees it. Take that Tara Reade!
Come on Joe..


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> If a site visitor goes to General Chat, this thread is invisible, unless they notice it on the site thread index.
> I suppose workplace harassment is invisible unless management sees it. Take that Tara Reade!
> Come on Joe..



Do you really think most intelligent, motivated, financially inclined browsers, would be interested in the dribble on this thread? Really?
I think if it is hidden, it is the best move ever, just my opinion.
God you would have to be a Trump troll to be interested in this thread.
Joe has pulled off a blinder, keeping it in the endless nonsense chatter section IMO. 
The last thing the forum needs to highlight the obvious political leanings of posters, to new potential investors, it is supposed to be an investment forum not a political platform.
Investment is meant to be analytical, not emotional, well that is what we are supposed to project IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> We're you of similar opinion with kavanaugh?




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/defending-brett-kavanaugh.34253/



SirRumpole said:


> Of allegations made about events decades ago ?
> 
> Witnesses, confirming evidence etc ?
> 
> Otherwise people might think it's just character assassination.
> 
> The guy may be a complete drop kick for all I know but if someone is going to ruin his career at least they should have to come up with evidence.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> We're you of similar opinion with kavanaugh?




Politics is different you can supposedly vote them out, could be quite a "Stormy" time for Biden.


----------



## moXJO

As much as I dislike his potential. I would rather see Sanders take the presidency. God forbid Hillary got another shot. You need someone to further break the system. And it's either trump or Sanders.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> As much as I dislike his potential. I would rather see Sanders take the presidency. God forbid Hillary got another shot. You need someone to further break the system. And it's either trump or Sanders.



As perverse is that sounds, I think you are dead right.


----------



## macca

I think it will be Biden/ Hilary courtesy of Hilary's friends, then if he wins, Hilary will take over because of "health problems"


----------



## Knobby22

You make me laugh Macca.


----------



## basilio

It's all good isn't it  ?
....*.Like what is the problem ?*


----------



## IFocus

Its all Hilarys fault.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Its all Hilarys fault.



Hillary is a broken unit. There's a reason she lost and it wasn't Russia. 
The fbi is currently getting grilled over the Flynn case. Turns out they were the swamp. A lot here made comments on how much they trusted them. Might be time to reevaluate who you guys trust.



basilio said:


> It's all good isn't it  ?
> ....*.Like what is the problem ?*
> 
> View attachment 103205



This is literally the left. You were previously shilling for CCP  (like they are not the totalitarian dikbags that they are). 
Everyone on the right on here seems completely aware of what trump is. 
The hypocrisy absolutely stinks coming from you guys.


----------



## basilio

I'm just dying to see the evidence  Pompeo and Trump are repeatedly sprouting regarding the origin of COVID 19 virus.

*Surely it must be exceptionally solid to warrant  publicly trashing the most powerful  country in Asia.* 

So lets see it shall we? 

.....................................................................................
_Intelligence sources have told the Guardian there is no current evidence to suggest coronavirus leaked from a Chinese research laboratory. Reports in Australia suggested its intelligence officials believed a “dossier” – touted by the Trump administration to support the laboratory theory – was compiled from news reports rather than actual material from the “Five Eyes” spy network of Australia, the US, New Zealand, Canada and the UK.

The US’s senior infectious disease expert, Dr Anthony Fauci, has said the available evidence was “very, very strongly leaning toward this [virus] could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated”.

The WHO’s technical lead on Covid-19, Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, stressed during Monday’s briefing that there were some 15,000 full genome sequences of the novel coronavirus available, and “from all of the evidence that we have seen ... this virus is of natural origin”._


----------



## dutchie

Chinese Government Lays Off Entire Propaganda Team As American Media Doing Their Job For Them

https://babylonbee.com/news/chinese...team-as-american-media-already-doing-same-job

"It seemed kinda redundant for us to have a state-run media when we have the American press," said President Xi at a press conference Monday. "The American media is carrying water for us. It's pretty incredible. We unleashed a virus on the world and lied about it for months, and the American press can't stop praising us. As long as they make their orange leader look bad, they'll repeat any line we feed them."


----------



## rederob

dutchie said:


> Chinese Government Lays Off Entire Propaganda Team As American Media Doing Their Job For Them
> 
> https://babylonbee.com/news/chinese...team-as-american-media-already-doing-same-job
> 
> "It seemed kinda redundant for us to have a state-run media when we have the American press," said President Xi at a press conference Monday. "The American media is carrying water for us. It's pretty incredible. We unleashed a virus on the world and lied about it for months, and the American press can't stop praising us. As long as they make their orange leader look bad, they'll repeat any line we feed them."



Why do you keep using this website?
It is all made up!
It's not even _fake news_ because it is intended to be irony/satire/mockery.


----------



## Purple XS2

Babylonbee is the fruitcake fringe of US politics, pretending to be funny.
On that score, the centre-left has the last laugh, or to paraphrase Tom Lehrer:
_They won the White House but we have all the best jokes..._


----------



## basilio

rederob said:


> Why do you keep using this website?
> It is all made up!
> It's not even _fake news_ because it is intended to be irony/satire/mockery.




Because it doesn't matter if it is just made up rubbish does it ?


----------



## dutchie

rederob said:


> Why do you keep using this website?
> It is all made up!
> It's not even _fake news_ because it is intended to be irony/satire/mockery.




No its all true. Would Babylon Bee lie to you?


But seriously, I know you Chinese do not understand humour.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> No its all true. Would Babylon Bee lie to you?
> 
> 
> But seriously, I know you Chinese do not understand humour.




No problems Dutchie.  We understand you perfectly. Your totally transparent


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I'm just dying to see the evidence  Pompeo and Trump are repeatedly sprouting regarding the origin of COVID 19 virus.
> 
> *Surely it must be exceptionally solid to warrant  publicly trashing the most powerful  country in Asia.*
> 
> So lets see it shall we?
> 
> .....................................................................................
> _Intelligence sources have told the Guardian there is no current evidence to suggest coronavirus leaked from a Chinese research laboratory. Reports in Australia suggested its intelligence officials believed a “dossier” – touted by the Trump administration to support the laboratory theory – was compiled from news reports rather than actual material from the “Five Eyes” spy network of Australia, the US, New Zealand, Canada and the UK.
> 
> The US’s senior infectious disease expert, Dr Anthony Fauci, has said the available evidence was “very, very strongly leaning toward this [virus] could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated”.
> 
> The WHO’s technical lead on Covid-19, Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, stressed during Monday’s briefing that there were some 15,000 full genome sequences of the novel coronavirus available, and “from all of the evidence that we have seen ... this virus is of natural origin”._



"Have told the guardian".... lol
What sources? 
The CCP media unit. Or maybe the lunch lady at  ASIS.

Nothing is clear till a proper investigation is carried out.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> No problems Dutchie.  We understand you perfectly. Your totally transparent




   Excellent.


----------



## IFocus

When ever anyone questions the motives of the western world its weird you get tagged as pro CCP.

No one I know thinks that the  CCP is a shining light no one and trust who can you trust really.

I take it everyone here knows the CCP didn't start or get involved in a war on the other side of the world resulting in 500,000 civilian casualties and up to 2 million with the on going conflict with 30 plus million displaced and cities razed to the ground.

Australia has.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> When ever anyone questions the motives of the western world its weird you get tagged as pro CCP.
> 
> No one I know thinks that the  CCP is a shining light no one and trust who can you trust really.
> 
> I take it everyone here knows the CCP didn't start or get involved in a war on the other side of the world resulting in 500,000 civilian casualties and up to 2 million with the on going conflict with 30 plus million displaced and cities razed to the ground.
> 
> Australia has.



I guess they're too busy murdering whistleblowers and dissenters in their own country... and tending the minority gulags?


----------



## dutchie

rederob said:


> Why do you keep using this website?
> It is all made up!
> It's not even _fake news_ because it is intended to be irony/satire/mockery.





So rederob, what a hypocrite you are.

Telling me to stop posting my bullsh#t whilst you continue to post your bullsh#t.

How dare you!

OK, I will stop posting my bullsh#t if you stop posting your bullsh#t.

i.e. you will have to stop posting.

No, that won’t work. So I will continue posting my bullsh#t and you can continue posting bullsh#t.


----------



## rederob

dutchie said:


> So rederob, what a hypocrite you are.
> 
> Telling me to stop posting my bullsh#t whilst you continue to post your bullsh#t.
> 
> How dare you!
> 
> OK, I will stop posting my bullsh#t if you stop posting your bullsh#t.
> 
> i.e. you will have to stop posting.
> 
> No, that won’t work. So I will continue posting my bullsh#t and you can continue posting bullsh#t.



I guess the difference is that I often use actual evidence to support what I write, while you tend to spout baseless nonsense.
So if you are going to call someone a *hypocrite*, try using evidence.


----------



## moXJO

rederob said:


> I guess the difference is that I often use actual evidence to support what I write, while you tend to spout baseless nonsense.
> So if you are going to call someone a *hypocrite*, try using evidence.



What evidence??
It's the rare occasion you put anything up( CC the exception)


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> When ever anyone questions the motives of the western world its weird you get tagged as pro CCP.
> 
> No one I know thinks that the  CCP is a shining light no one and trust who can you trust really.
> 
> I take it everyone here knows the CCP didn't start or get involved in a war on the other side of the world resulting in 500,000 civilian casualties and up to 2 million with the on going conflict with 30 plus million displaced and cities razed to the ground.
> 
> Australia has.



You do understand CCP have been driving the majority of the crap bas and rob puts up. 

Given the group think of the left, the rest of you gobble it up like ice cream. You then get this b.s. narrative out there that further clouds reality.


----------



## Logique

This piece is now almost legendary, and went around the world:

*Via Local Commie Underlings, Beijing Officially Disapproves*
Tim Blair, The Daily Telegraph, April 4, 2020: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...s/news-story/491b415795fbbdc526d33d5b569134a4
"..The Daily Telegraph this week received a letter from the Australian Consulate General of the People's Republic of China, who took gentle issue with our excellent coverage of the coronavirus crisis...

_PRC: 'The effectiveness of China's epidemic prevention and control has fully underlined the people-centred philosophy of the Communist Party of China and the strong advantages of the Chinese system.'_
TB:...Please tell us more about your “people-centred philosophy” and how many bullets it requires.

_PRC:'Instead of admitting and facing facts, the articles in your newspaper have wantonly attacked and smeared the CPC and the Chinese government with vicious language.'_
TB:...And yet we haven’t been jailed or shot! Where’s the justice in that?..."


----------



## wayneL

Here's what I find unnerving.

We may be wrong, we may be evil, we may be a lot of things. We may be a lot of things in the eyes of some that we aren't actually are; or actually are as the case may be.

Whatever.

But we have an our midst, folks who actively work and propagandize against us... Our own people.

My certainly we have our own villains, and these villains may be at the core of our bureaucracy and government. I don't have any problem in accepting that.

What alarms meet is the thinking that because we do have villains,  that therefore foreign powers must be virtuous.

This is the most asinine thinking I can imagine.

From our cultural perspective, even though we do have villains, foreign villains are are far more villainous than our villains.

The naivette that the CCP is more virtuous than our mob, is exceedingly stupid.

We have the possibility to influence our own behaviour as a nation, (if only people knew what the hell is going on), but we have zero in possibility of influencing the behaviour of the ccp.

The fact that the CCP is malevolent to western culture, should be enough to turn any one of European heritage or predilection, into enthusiastic supporters of us, the West.

Yet, even in the cross section of membership here at the Asf, we have several anti-west, CCP shills.

Gentleman, we have met the enemy, and he is us.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> I guess they're too busy murdering whistleblowers and dissenters in their own country... and tending the minority gulags?





Highly likely, total authoritarian government, and they do have an agenda.

But arguing the facts as know is not pro CCP.

It also isn't negative western world, going down that road would have everyone arguing against climate change because its a conspiracy by scientists  to get funding etc..........hang on.......


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> But arguing the facts as know is not pro CCP.
> 
> .



Facts on verification. Despite what dribble has been posted, China has withheld data and an investigation.

Arguing just the facts is different from pushing a certain narrative. We also have 'conspiracy theory contagion' which is deeply hiding the truth. And that's coming from all different quarters now.


----------



## dutchie

wayneL said:


> Here's what I find unnerving.
> 
> We may be wrong, we may be evil, we may be a lot of things. We may be a lot of things in the eyes of some that we aren't actually are; or actually are as the case may be.
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> But we have an our midst, folks who actively work and propagandize against us... Our own people.
> 
> My certainly we have our own villains, and these villains may be at the core of our bureaucracy and government. I don't have any problem in accepting that.
> 
> What alarms meet is the thinking that because we do have villains,  that therefore foreign powers must be virtuous.
> 
> This is the most asinine thinking I can imagine.
> 
> From our cultural perspective, even though we do have villains, foreign villains are are far more villainous than our villains.
> 
> The naivette that the CCP is more virtuous than our mob, is exceedingly stupid.
> 
> We have the possibility to influence our own behaviour as a nation, (if only people knew what the hell is going on), but we have zero in possibility of influencing the behaviour of the ccp.
> 
> The fact that the CCP is malevolent to western culture, should be enough to turn any one of European heritage or predilection, into enthusiastic supporters of us, the West.
> 
> Yet, even in the cross section of membership here at the Asf, we have several anti-west, CCP shills.
> 
> Gentleman, we have met the enemy, and he is us.




As well home grown traitors we also import them.


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> As well home grown traitors we also import them.




And then they become MP's.


----------



## rederob

Logique said:


> This piece is now almost legendary, and went around the world:
> 
> *Via Local Commie Underlings, Beijing Officially Disapproves*
> Tim Blair, The Daily Telegraph, April 4, 2020: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...s/news-story/491b415795fbbdc526d33d5b569134a4
> "..The Daily Telegraph this week received a letter from the Australian Consulate General of the People's Republic of China, who took gentle issue with our excellent coverage of the coronavirus crisis...
> 
> _PRC: 'The effectiveness of China's epidemic prevention and control has fully underlined the people-centred philosophy of the Communist Party of China and the strong advantages of the Chinese system.'_
> TB:...Please tell us more about your “people-centred philosophy” and how many bullets it requires.
> 
> _PRC:'Instead of admitting and facing facts, the articles in your newspaper have wantonly attacked and smeared the CPC and the Chinese government with vicious language.'_
> TB:...And yet we haven’t been jailed or shot! Where’s the justice in that?..."



What garbage!
Little wonder so many here are so ignorant of the facts when they have to resort to quoting a miserable excuse for journalism.
You guys are absolute Sinophobes.


----------



## satanoperca

rederob said:


> What garbage!
> Little wonder so many here are so ignorant of the facts when they have to resort to quoting a miserable excuse for journalism.
> You guys are absolute Sinophobes.




Calling people names, never got anyone anywhere, people are entitled to their opinion, a small advanced of living in western DEMOCRACY.

And Rob, it is getting a little boring that is all you can present, I think the vast majority of people here at not sinophobes, they do not distrust the Chinese people or it culture, rather its government.

So you name calling is as childish and immature as saying all white people are racist.


----------



## wayneL

rederob said:


> What garbage!
> Little wonder so many here are so ignorant of the facts when they have to resort to quoting a miserable excuse for journalism.
> You guys are absolute Sinophobes.



Bullshyt.

A phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. Alarm at the actions of the CCP is entirely reasonable.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Bullshyt.
> 
> A phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. Alarm at the actions of the CCP is entirely reasonable.



Well I'm not scared of CCP, Credit Corp.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Well I'm not scared of CCP, Credit Corp.



Wait till next reporting season


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> Well I'm not scared of CCP, Credit Corp.



lol


----------



## moXJO

rederob said:


> What garbage!
> Little wonder so many here are so ignorant of the facts when they have to resort to quoting a miserable excuse for journalism.
> You guys are absolute Sinophobes.




Frame as racist (tick)
Play down missing/dead/silenced doctors, business people, journalists (tick)
Dispute origins (tick)
Praise initial response (tick)
Use "sinophobes" despite posts attacking the CCP and not the Chinese people (tick)


----------



## satanoperca

Where is Tisme, at least he provided some descent discussion, Redrob is just boring.


----------



## basilio

Well it only took a day but Donald  Trump decided that closing the down the Corona virus task force while there were 30k new infections a day might look as if he as just trying to muzzle the only two doctors telling people what was happening.

* Trump reverses course and says White House coronavirus taskforce will stay *

President had suggested taskforce was to be dismantled
Trump keen to reopen country and revive US economy
The White House appeared to be in fresh disarray on Wednesday as Donald Trump insisted that his coronavirus taskforce would remain in place – less than 24 hours after suggesting it would be disbanded.

*  Coronavirus US live: press secretary defends Trump over blocking Fauci's testimony  *
Read more 

The US president reversed course following a backlash against moves to wind down the taskforce even as the country reports about 30,000 new coronavirus cases a day and the death toll moves past 70,000, the highest in the world.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/06/trump-coronavirus-white-house-taskforce-covid-19


----------



## dutchie

Trump is my hero.

*Trump Unveils New Coronavirus-Seeking Missiles*








https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-u...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## dutchie

Trump Announces All Reporters At White House Press Briefings Must Wear MAGA Masks







https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-a...te-house-press-briefings-must-wear-maga-masks


----------



## rederob

dutchie said:


> Trump Announces All Reporters At White House Press Briefings Must Wear MAGA Masks
> https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-a...te-house-press-briefings-must-wear-maga-masks



it's an excellent idea and has worked.
Trump has made the USA the number one nation for COV19 deaths.
Better still, he's not content with present death rates and is "opening" America up to more so as to guarantee his place in history.


----------



## SirRumpole

rederob said:


> it's an excellent idea and has worked.
> Trump has made the USA the number one nation for COV19 deaths.
> Better still, he's not content with present death rates and is "opening" America up to more so as to guarantee his place in history.




It's a "win-win" for Trump.

If the economy gets moving again, it because of him, if death rates skyrocket, well that's the fault of the States.


----------



## moXJO

rederob said:


> it's an excellent idea and has worked.
> Trump has made the USA the number one nation for COV19 deaths.
> Better still, he's not content with present death rates and is "opening" America up to more so as to guarantee his place in history.



No Robbie that's China.
270683 deaths and counting.

US is 13th on the list of deaths per million.
Do keep up on fudging the figures and distorting reality.
Sweden (which is higher then the US by the way)
has no lockdown or restrictions.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> No Robbie that's China.
> 270683 deaths and counting.



And the source for this figure  is ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> And the source for this figure  is ?



World deaths


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> World deaths



Source and detail please. 
Deaths attributed to COVID 9 in China thanks.


----------



## sptrawler

I think everyone on a public service pension, shouldnt be allowed to post.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Source and detail please.
> Deaths attributed to COVID 9 in China thanks.



That figure is worldwide deaths. China is to blame.


----------



## bellenuit

This girl's lip synching is superb


----------



## basilio

*...................OBAMAGATE :*
*THE BIGGEST  POLITICAL CRIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY !!!!*

So what exactly did President Obama do ? Journalists  asked Donald Trump to explain this horrific  crime ..  So what did he say ?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...e-is-trump-stumped-on-obamagate-details-video


----------



## basilio

_Rather than seeking to bend the intelligence community to its will, the Trump administration has chosen to ignore it altogether.  Trump just making stuff up to divert attention_

*Breaking with intelligence: Trump and the case of pandemic blame*
 Arzan Tarapore 
Spurious virus claims are not a case of history repeating. Rather, it’s policy that ignores intelligence altogether. 

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/breaking-intelligence-trump-and-case-pandemic-blame


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *...................OBAMAGATE :*
> *THE BIGGEST  POLITICAL CRIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY !!!!*
> 
> So what exactly did President Obama do ? Journalists  asked Donald Trump to explain this horrific  crime ..  So what did he say ?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...e-is-trump-stumped-on-obamagate-details-video



On the contrary my China propaganda pushing friend. This story may just be the juiciest one yet. If democrats don't win the election, a whole lot of truth will be exposed over the whole Russia scandal. 
Exposing Obama would be a laugh.


----------



## spooly74

basilio said:


> *...................OBAMAGATE :*
> *THE BIGGEST  POLITICAL CRIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY !!!!*
> 
> So what exactly did President Obama do ? Journalists  asked Donald Trump to explain this horrific  crime ..  So what did he say ?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...e-is-trump-stumped-on-obamagate-details-video



Let me get this straight.

Trump doesn't give an Obama lackey evidence.
Therefore, there is no evidence.
Because if Trump had evidence, he'd tell the Washington Post.

Got it


----------



## basilio

I had a dream...

The President of the United States made this speech to bring the country together and inspire confidence in the capacity of government to protect the community.

_“America has faced many enemies before, both foreign and domestic. The goal of those enemies has always been to destroy not just America itself, but the ideal America stands for, which is equal treatment and opportunity for all who live here, regardless of wealth, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation, or gender. Covid-19 is an enemy that doesn’t care about politics or social justice – it’s an opportunistic organism that just wants to feed and spread. It doesn’t want to destroy America. But if we’re not careful, it might achieve that anyway.

“People are defined by how they act, not during the good times when kindness and compassion are easy, but during the tough times, when helping a neighbor could cost us. A crisis reveals whether we are heroes are villains. Ernest Hemingway said, ‘Courage is grace under pressure,’ and I believe that Americans are ready to demonstrate their courage through grace.

“That has to start with those of us in government who are entrusted with the task of fighting this enemy. The only way we can justify the people’s trust is by being completely transparent in our mistakes, successes, and plans for the future.

“We have made mistakes. My administration did not act quickly enough in recognizing the serious threat that Covid-19 posed. We should have, but we didn’t. No excuse is offered because no excuse is acceptable. That delay led to a domino effect of playing catch-up in developing enough testing and in getting necessary medical supplies to health care facilities. But we have learned from our mistakes and those of other countries as well.

“The virus has worsened already unacceptable racial and economic disparity in this country. The death rate among the black and Latinx communities is significantly higher than among white communities. I will do everything in my power to change that. The virus is also attacking our democratic process, threatening to keep people of color and those economically challenged from being able to cast their votes in November. I will do everything in my power to ensure every eligible voter’s voice will be counted.

“As for those out there who use our national crisis as an excuse to marginalize others or do harm to others because of their race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity, not only do I not support you, I will do everything in my power to see you are prosecuted. Because the whole point of the president’s power is to use it to protect those who need it most. And if that offends you, then don’t vote for me.

“As of right now, my administration is fully committed to one mission: keeping our people physically healthy while also protecting the country’s economic health. Balancing those two crucial, yet sometimes competing goals is the greatest challenge this country has faced in decades. No one has definitive answers because this situation is unique. However, it is our pledge to never put lives at risk just for the sake of unnecessary economic policies. Any decision regarding opening businesses or reducing shelter-in-place will be data-driven, based only on the information gathered by the country’s leading scientific and medical experts, not partisan appointments.

“No one knows definitively how the virus originated. But investigating the source is crucial to further understanding how it works and spreads and may help us to battle other viruses in the future. Countries need to work together to gather this information, not to place blame or levy accusations or seek reparations, but rather to help humanity survive. Toward that end, I pledge no actions will be sought against any country involved.

“To ensure that my focus remains on this task, I will not participate in any campaigning for the 2020 presidency. I will continue to run for the office, but I will let my actions alone be my campaign. How I conduct myself as your leader over these next few months is my campaign.

“I will make no campaign speeches, I will not talk disparagingly of my opponent or his surrogates. There will be no activity regarding the border wall or other divisive issues. We all need to work together to overcome this threat in the here and now, without one eye perpetually on November. President Lincoln said, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” That is even more appropriate now, 162 years later, as we face an increasing death toll and a declining economy. America is fighting for its survival – not just as a country, but as an ideal. And nothing is more important than proving to ourselves and the rest of the world that our shared ideals are powerful enough to overcome any enemy, seen or unseen.”_

Shame I had to wake up to reality


----------



## wayneL

Good God basilio. Race baiting, virtue signalling and all the SJW stuff in one short speech.

Awesome work!


----------



## dutchie

Hillary Clinton Suggests That Americans Vote For President By Email

Clinton released her proposal to have Americans send in their votes via email and even offered to run the server herself. She said her server could handle up to 30,000 emails per second, more than enough bandwidth to run the national election.

https://babylonbee.com/news/hillary...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## Knobby22

If Trump and Pence were both incapacitated by the virus, guess who is next in line?

Nancy Pelosi!!


----------



## Humid

Kiefer Sutherland


----------



## basilio

The conflict between the expertise of experienced  virologists and a President who follows his own gut instincts is becoming stark. 
It seems that expert advice is only to be used if it is "acceptable"

*Donald Trump unhappy with Anthony Fauci's coronavirus advice as ousted scientist warns US faces 'darkest winter'*

US President Donald Trump is not happy with warnings from top infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci about reopening the economy and schools too quickly.

Dr Fauci, who directs the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, warned that a premature lifting of lockdowns could lead to additional outbreaks of the deadly coronavirus, which has killed more than 82,000 people in the US, representing one-fourth of global deaths.

"To me it's not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools," Mr Trump said.

*Key points:*

The pandemic will get worse in the US unless there is a national response based on science, Dr Bright warns
Mr Trump has dismissed Dr Bright as a 'disgruntled guy'
Dr Bright says friction with his bosses escalated when he opposed a malaria drug touted by Mr Trump
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ronavirus-pandemic-scientist-warning/12246256


----------



## basilio

The background of the "dream"speech I posted above.

*If I were Donald Trump's speechwriter, this is the team talk I would suggest *
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
The president seems incapable of uniting the country. So, as the Covid-19 pandemic continues to take a toll on America, I wrote him a speech

 @KAJ33 
Tue 12 May 2020 20.00 AEST   Last modified on Wed 13 May 2020 01.52 AEST

Shares
1,679




 John Wooden coached Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at UCLA. Photograph: Bettmann/Bettmann Archive 

There’s a moment near the end of most sports movies when the coach gives a heartfelt pep talk right before the crucial game. The coach will use words like “heart,” “honor,” and “teamwork”. Everything that happens on the court or field after that is a bit of a letdown because victory – whether on the scoreboard or of the spirit – seems inevitable after the speech. To movie audiences, these moments may seem corny, but in real life, when someone you admire and respect speaks, their words can have a great impact. I certainly listened when coaches I respected, such as John Wooden, spoke at crucial points during my career. Inspiring people to be their best is what great coaches – and great politicians – do. It’s one of the qualities that makes them great.

For the past few months, this country has faced a formidable opponent in Covid-19. It’s been kicking our butts across every state and the statistics are only getting worse. America has a deep bench of expertise and we know how to come together as a team when we need to. Yet, faced with uncomfortable truths and frightening inconsistencies in leadership, we’ve started to unravel here and there. Rather than pull together in a crisis, we’re fighting each other. And that’s leading to even more deaths.

One thing we could use right now is a passionate rallying speech from our president that inspires us all to do the right thing, not just for ourselves, but for our country. It is the speech Trump should deliver, not because he wants to be reelected, but because it would address the country’s major concerns, end the political squabbling, provide a reasonable plan going forward, and give Americans confidence that their government is working to protect their health and economic concerns. It needs to be the speech of a statesman not a, well, Trump. If I were Trump’s speechwriter, using the lessons I learned from great talks I heard in my basketball career, this is what I would give him to deliver:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/12/kareem-abdul-jabbar-covid-19-donald-trump


----------



## Knobby22

Not gonna happen.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Not gonna happen.



Agree.
Trump isn't one for great speeches. More hammering out a message. Generally not the one that's needed.


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump puts his foot in it again.

Taking work off Australian contractors for the F-35. Puts Aussies out of jobs then expect us to buy a lemon for an increased price.

What an idiot.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...-35-production-jobs-out-of-australia/12252384


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> Trump puts his foot in it again.
> 
> Taking work off Australian contractors for the F-35. Puts Aussies out of jobs then expect us to buy a lemon for an increased price.
> 
> What an idiot.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...-35-production-jobs-out-of-australia/12252384




Horrific story. The man just keeps proving what a monumental xxxxwit he is. 

I think the Military-Industrial complex will be apoplectic  over this sort of madness. They are only too aware of the practical and political factors involved in spreading production of these  weapons.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Agree.
> Trump isn't one for great speeches. More hammering out a message. Generally not the one that's needed.




Generally no Presidents write great speeches. That's what speechwriters do 

But they have to recognise the point of such a speech and the principles behind it to ask and deliver such a story. And they need the credibility to deliver it. 

Your right. This creature has only one principal in sight . 

Him alone.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Generally no Presidents write great speeches. That's what speechwriters do
> 
> But they have to recognise the point of such a speech and the principles behind it to ask and deliver such a story. And they need the credibility to deliver it.
> 
> Your right. This creature has only one principal in sight .
> 
> Him alone.



That is where Morgan Freeman was el supremo, I mean Obama was smooth but Freeman was majestic IMO.
Why cant Australia become a republic and pick Presidents, Russel Crow would have to be a shoe in, with his dulcid tones.


----------



## basilio

This is what happens when COVID 19 gets away in a small community.  If this becomes typical across the  Mid West  ...

*Donald Trump says America's coronavirus curve is flattening but a second wave is coming for rural communities*
The country's most vulnerable communities, lulled into a false sense of security, are getting slammed with America's second wave of the virus right as the rest of the nation sees an overall flattening curve and pushes to move on.

*Cuthbert had the highest death rate per-capita in the US*
At the time of writing, Cuthbert and the surrounding Randolph County (total population: 6,700) reported 169 confirmed cases and 21 deaths.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-16/coronavirus-second-wave-hits-rural-america/12251058


----------



## dutchie

Let’s face it. Donald Trump is a rough individual. He is vain, insensitive and raw. But he loves America more than any President in my lifetime. He is the last firewall between us and this cesspool called Washington. I’ll take him any day over any of these bums. #Trump2020

James Wood on Twitter

This is the truth that anti Trumpers cannot admit.


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> Let’s face it. Donald Trump is a rough individual. He is vain, insensitive and raw. But he loves America more than any President in my lifetime. He is the last firewall between us and this cesspool called Washington. I’ll take him any day over any of these bums. #Trump2020
> 
> James Wood on Twitter
> 
> This is the truth that anti Trumpers cannot admit.




I think he loves money more than anything else.


----------



## Knobby22

There appears to be signs that Trump may be suffering from dementia. He does seem to be having a few problems. The rumours have been swirling for months but it appears to be getting worse and more obvious. He has to drink water with two hands, his speeches are noticeably deteriorating in standard and he has started slurring, he forgets stuff, says oranges instead of origins. There are rumours he can't use a knife and fork? Could this election be the dementia election?

https://trofire.com/2019/04/14/signs-of-trumps-dementia-are-clear-as-day-psychologist-warns/


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> There appears to be signs that Trump may be suffering from dementia. He does seem to be having a few problems. The rumours have been swirling for months but it appears to be getting worse and more obvious. He has to drink water with two hands, his speeches are noticeably deteriorating in standard and he has started slurring, he forgets stuff, says oranges instead of origins. There are rumours he can't use a knife and fork? Could this election be the dementia election?
> 
> https://trofire.com/2019/04/14/signs-of-trumps-dementia-are-clear-as-day-psychologist-warns/



Sounds like it might be a level playing field.


----------



## SirRumpole

He's taking hydroxychloroquine, so it will be interesting to see what effect that has on him.


----------



## bellenuit

SirRumpole said:


> He's taking hydroxychloroquine, so it will be interesting to see what effect that has on him.




Hydroxychloroquine always sounds to me like something you would use to clean a toilet bowl. Perhaps it is an appropriate use in Trump's case.


----------



## moXJO

Malaria treatment. Did have a lot of side affects.
Used it before without any effect. 


nausea,
vomiting,
stomach pain or cramps,
loss of appetite,
weight loss,
diarrhea,
dizziness,
spinning sensation,
headache,
ringing in your ears,
mood changes,
nervousness,
irritability,
skin rash,
itching, or
hair loss.
Tell your doctor if you experience serious side effects including


muscle weakness,
twitching,
uncontrolled movement,
loss of balance or coordination,
blurred vision,
light sensitivity,
seeing halos around lights,
pale skin,
easy bruising or
bleeding,
confusion,
unusual thoughts or behavior, or
seizures (convulsions).
Might explain the dementia post above.


----------



## macca

SirRumpole said:


> He's taking hydroxychloroquine, so it will be interesting to see what effect that has on him.




I find it interesting that they are trying all sorts of super bombs but no one seems to be collating the results internationally

Maybe we could form a world health group and act as a collection point of information for doctors throughout the world

Now, who could we get to do that ?

Here is a summary of some trials

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2020...carousel&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=homepage


----------



## moXJO

Australia is currently trialling (or about to) hydroxychloroquine.
1000 health workers to get a daily dose or something. So I guess the news stories of how bad it is are all b.s..


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Australia is currently trialling (or about to) hydroxychloroquine.
> 1000 health workers to get a daily dose or something. So I guess the news stories of how bad it is are all b.s..



What!!! our media guru's and morning show oracles, talking B.S? I always thought they were paid by the ton.


----------



## macca

moXJO said:


> Australia is currently trialling (or about to) hydroxychloroquine.
> 1000 health workers to get a daily dose or something. So I guess the news stories of how bad it is are all b.s..




This drug improves the zinc uptake within the body, the Doc who used it in USA combined three things one of which was zinc.

He says that Hydro...... does nothing for CV19 unless you also have lots of zinc available, it is the zinc doing the job not the Hydro............

Get stuck into the oysters is the go


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> I think he loves money more than anything else.



Don't we all.


----------



## basilio

Saw this clip from Blazing Saddles and my mind wandered to our current supreme exponent of Frontier Gibberish


----------



## basilio

_In my three and a half decades as a U.S. Foreign Service officer, proudly serving five presidents and ten secretaries of state from both parties, I’ve never seen an attack on diplomacy as damaging, to both the State Department as an institution and our international influence, as the one now underway._

*The Demolition of U.S. Diplomacy*
William J. Burns

October 14, 2019
_Foreign Affairs_
Source: Getty
*Summary:  *There may never have been an attack on diplomacy as damaging, to both the State Department as an institution and U.S. international influence, as the one underway today.
*Related Media and Tools

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/10/14/demolition-of-u.s.-diplomacy-pub-80062*

Print Page


----------



## basilio

Dissecting the genius of Donald Trump


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Dissecting the genius of Donald Trump





CNN  -  LOL   extremely sophistic
Cuomo  - wanker


----------



## moXJO

dutchie said:


> CNN  -  LOL   extremely sophistic
> Cuomo  - wanker



He is the brother of the democrat Cuomo from NY. Surprise surprise


----------



## Smurf1976

macca said:


> He says that Hydro...... does nothing for CV19 unless you also have lots of zinc available, it is the zinc doing the job not the Hydro............




Well I'm quite familiar with hydro-electricity and I used to live about 3km from the world's third largest zinc smelter so will that make me immune? 

Here's a scale model of a zinc ingot (and yep that's my hand). Should I be eating it?


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> Well I'm quite familiar with hydro-electricity and I used to live about 3km from the world's third largest zinc smelter so will that make me immune?
> 
> Here's a scale model of a zinc ingot (and yep that's my hand). Should I be eating it?
> 
> View attachment 103856



Not many callouses on that hand smurf.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> CNN  -  LOL   extremely sophistic
> Cuomo  - wanker




You have no xxxxing idea do you Dutchie ?  You just have a kneejerk "Hands up" response to any attack on  your beloved leader.

Just seeing the first minute of Trump adorning himself as the greatest expert on  any  process or situation made the point. The rest of the analysis just  examined it in detail.

So sad really. I'm sure there are millions of other totally uncritical unthinking Trumpites who will never hear a bad word about their beloved.

Insane..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> You have no xxxxing idea do you Dutchie ?  You just have a kneejerk "Hands up" response to any attack on  your beloved leader.
> 
> Just seeing the first minute of Trump adorning himself as the greatest expert on  any  process or situation made the point. The rest of the analysis just  examined it in detail.
> 
> So sad really. I'm sure there are millions of other totally uncritical unthinking Trumpites who will never hear a bad word about their beloved.
> 
> Insane..



CNN pushed the Russian b.s. and every other fairytale fantasy. So did you. Despite it looking suss from day one.
Probably not a good idea to quote from them. Cuomo is a well known hack.

I often wonder what possess you to keep posting about Trump every thread?

As far as I'm concerned he is good as gone and "meh" if he is. Had some laughs and he is a great trigger point for leftists losing their minds.


----------



## moXJO

Smurf1976 said:


> Here's a scale model of a zinc ingot (and yep that's my hand). Should I be eating it?
> 
> View attachment 103856



Minimum I would be licking it three times a day.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> CNN pushed the Russian b.s. and every other fairytale fantasy. So did you. Despite it looking suss from day one.
> Probably not a good idea to quote from them. Cuomo is a well known hack.
> 
> I often wonder what possess you to keep posting about Trump every thread?
> 
> As far as I'm concerned he is good as gone and "meh" if he is. Had some laughs and he is a great trigger point for leftists losing their minds.




Lets start with the "alternative facts".
Russia did intervene to support Trump in the last election.  That's it. Evidence is all laid out.  The fairy tale BS comes from the Liar in Chief denying it to all an sundry and those who chose to believe such mendacious lies.

Cuomo didn't need to do anything more than  show the repeated clips of Donald Trump sprouting his  ever increasing genius to highlight what an stupid, dangerous egomaniac he is.  Trying to trash Cuomo as a "hack" is just another rubbish way of refusing to recognise who the world is dealing with.

Finally if Trump was no longer in the White House and facing multiple investigation for abuse of office,  sexual assault, fraud and whatever else perhaps he would be "gone"

But he isn't is he ? He is still determinedly lying and abusing his way through a COVID 19 crisis , trying to undermine the next election and creating  incendiary lies about journalists to attack the Press and divert attention.

So why do some people think we shouldn't be aware and absolutely determined to stop this slide to a lying, authoritarian family regime.? 

Beats me really .


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Lets start with the "alternative facts".
> Russia did intervene to support Trump in the last election.  That's it. Evidence is all laid out.  The fairy tale BS comes from the Liar in Chief denying it to all an sundry and those who chose to believe such mendacious lies.
> 
> Cuomo didn't need to do anything more than  show the repeated clips of Donald Trump sprouting his  ever increasing genius to highlight what an stupid, dangerous egomaniac he is.  Trying to trash Cuomo as a "hack" is just another rubbish way of refusing to recognise who the world is dealing with.
> 
> Finally if Trump was no longer in the White House and facing multiple investigation for abuse of office,  sexual assault, fraud and whatever else perhaps he would be "gone"
> 
> But he isn't is he ? He is still determinedly lying and abusing his way through a COVID 19 crisis , trying to undermine the next election and creating  incendiary lies about journalists to attack the Press and divert attention.
> 
> So why do some people think we shouldn't be aware and absolutely determined to stop this slide to a lying, authoritarian family regime.?
> 
> Beats me really .



Russian collusion was b.s. 
And why did none of your other b.s. stories stick?
Obama looks to have used the fbi to investigate an opponent. Didn't the dems complain about something similar not that long ago?

Personally I think you reference a lot of lies. Media has been complicit in a lot that was being pushed as well. WHO can forget the whole "school kids threatened an Indian" only to find it was all a lie. It's been constant. Which is why you are as credible as trump. No fact checking, just cheap points in an imaginary war.

The funny thing I find with the whole situation is that Obama is the reason trump ran.
He roasted him in the audience one night at some function. It all came about because Obama was being a dick. And then trump ran and democrats/leftist have collectively whinged ever since.

Obama has been pissing himself over his legacy being squashed ever since. And it's still coming out.


----------



## SirRumpole

The thing that interests me is that if Hilary was such a crook as Trump claimed, then why didn't he sic the FBI on her and why isn't she in gaol ?

This guy is an inveterate liar who will say anything to get elected with nothing to back it up. His attacks on Biden's son have ceased because he knows there was nothing going on.

Personality wise, he's a complete creep. Policy wise, apart from a few taunts and jabs at China, what else has he got ?


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Personality wise, he's a complete creep. Policy wise, apart from a few taunts and jabs at China, what else has he got ?



That description covers a lot of them, all over the world.
Obviously if you want a really nice person to lead, that puts everyone before themselves, we should get a film star or a priest.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> That description covers a lot of them, all over the world.
> Obviously if you want a really nice person to lead, that puts everyone before themselves, we should get a film star or a priest.




Dragging down to the lowest common denominator is not relevant. There are a lot of better people in the US than Trump, it's a pity that you have to start with millions to get a run there.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Dragging down to the lowest common denominator is not relevant. There are a lot of better people in the US than Trump, it's a pity that you have to start with millions to get a run there.



It certainly is a different creature to Australia, I can't follow any of it, way too many vested interests on all sides.


----------



## basilio

*Trump follows through on election promise to shoot people in the street *
May 29, 2020


WRITTEN BY
Cam Smith 
twitter: _@cams_myth_






After being accused of lying by Twitter this week, United States President Donald Trump has today attempted to show just how honest he is by following through on his election pledge to shoot random people in the street. 

https://chaser.com.au/general-news/...ection-promise-to-shoot-people-in-the-street/


----------



## orr

The US could work on an ignominy  antithesis to Mt Rushmore... no trouble in crowd funding that effort.
It would be small and forgettable as a feature ; But would live large as an historical emblem.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> You have no xxxxing idea do you Dutchie ?  You just have a kneejerk "Hands up" response to any attack on  your beloved leader.
> 
> Just seeing the first minute of Trump adorning himself as the greatest expert on  any  process or situation made the point. The rest of the analysis just  examined it in detail.
> 
> So sad really. I'm sure there are millions of other totally uncritical unthinking Trumpites who will never hear a bad word about their beloved.
> 
> Insane..




T D S ,      you have a bad case of it.


----------



## basilio

So is actually a hands on President in the US ? What is he actually* doing *? 
Perhaps very little.

* Fire, pestilence and a country at war with itself: the Trump presidency is over *
Robert Reich
A pandemic unabated, an economy in meltdown, cities in chaos over police killings. All our supposed leader does is tweet

You’d be forgiven if you hadn’t noticed. His verbal bombshells are louder than ever, but Donald J Trump is no longer president of the United States.

By having no constructive response to any of the monumental crises now convulsing America, Trump has abdicated his office. 

He is not governing. He’s golfing, watching cable TV and tweeting.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...irus-pandemic-george-floyd-minneapolis-tweets


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> So is actually a hands on President in the US ? What is he actually* doing *?
> Perhaps very little.
> 
> * Fire, pestilence and a country at war with itself: the Trump presidency is over *
> Robert Reich
> A pandemic unabated, an economy in meltdown, cities in chaos over police killings. All our supposed leader does is tweet
> 
> You’d be forgiven if you hadn’t noticed. His verbal bombshells are louder than ever, but Donald J Trump is no longer president of the United States.
> 
> By having no constructive response to any of the monumental crises now convulsing America, Trump has abdicated his office.
> 
> He is not governing. He’s golfing, watching cable TV and tweeting.
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...irus-pandemic-george-floyd-minneapolis-tweets



I think you pay way to time believing the media Bas, if the American public is pizzed off, they let the Government know as they are doing over the black man's death.
The virus beat up IMO is just that, media hype.
I don't believe Trump will lose any votes over the virus, how he handles this current policing incident, will be much more telling IMO.


----------



## noirua

*U.S. Economy Faces Projected 10-Year Recovery From Coronavirus Effects -- 2nd Update*
*https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/s...economy-faces-projected-10-year-recovery-from*
The U.S. economy could take the better part of a decade to fully recover from the coronavirus pandemic and related shutdowns, a U.S. budget agency said, as a series of surveys pointed to continuing weakness in global manufacturing.


----------



## moXJO

Covid left the news pretty quick.


----------



## Smurf1976

moXJO said:


> Covid left the news pretty quick.



Doesn't mean it has gone away in the US......


----------



## chiff

moXJO said:


> Covid left the news pretty quick.



As has Hong Kong.


----------



## moXJO

Smurf1976 said:


> Doesn't mean it has gone away in the US......



After all those people packed together at protests, God help the. 
So much for the lockdown to stop it spreading.


----------



## moXJO

chiff said:


> As has Hong Kong.



Iran and China tried to pile on. Unfortunately for China, vids of Chinese beating Africans stopped that b.s..


----------



## chiff

moXJO said:


> Iran and China tried to pile on. Unfortunately for China, vids of Chinese beating Africans stopped that b.s..



I think there are some crossed wireS here...if you want to start" the treatment of minorities and native peoples'it should be in a new thread.Few countries would survive that scrutiny.
I thought I was saying that the US riots have knocked both Covid and Hong kong out of the news?


----------



## moXJO

chiff said:


> I think there are some crossed wireS here...if you want to start" the treatment of minorities and native peoples'it should be in a new thread.Few countries would survive that scrutiny.
> I thought I was saying that the US riots have knocked both Covid and Hong kong out of the news?



Accidentally quoted your post. Went a different tangent with the second one.


----------



## Knobby22

I wonder what Trump will do next, holding a Bible in front of a church was fun.

From Fox News:
Moments before 6:30 p.m., just when Trump said he would begin his address, the officers suddenly marched forward, directly confronting the protesters as many held up their hands, saying, “Don’t shoot."

Soon, law enforcement officers were aggressively forcing the protesters back, firing tear gas and deploying flash bangs into the crowd to disperse them from the park for seemingly no reason. It was a jarring scene as police in the nation's capital forcefully cleared young men and women gathered legally in a public park on a sunny evening, all of it on live television.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I wonder what Trump will do next, holding a Bible in front of a church was fun.
> 
> From Fox News:
> Moments before 6:30 p.m., just when Trump said he would begin his address, the officers suddenly marched forward, directly confronting the protesters as many held up their hands, saying, “Don’t shoot."
> 
> Soon, law enforcement officers were aggressively forcing the protesters back, firing tear gas and deploying flash bangs into the crowd to disperse them from the park for seemingly no reason. It was a jarring scene as police in the nation's capital forcefully cleared young men and women gathered legally in a public park on a sunny evening, all of it on live television.



They used smoke, possibly irritants, and pepper balls. Not tear gas.

Peaceful protests are protected under the constitution. Police were in the wrong.
However the Whitehouse was under siege a couple of days ago. You also have officers getting sht and p1ss thrown over them along with all the other tactics the professional protesters use. In turn officers are way to heavy handed in a lot of circumstances.

You then have that idiot de blasio not doing his job. Trump does not run New  York, de blasio and Cuomo are in charge. Along with the police chief they all failed the police that were on the ground. You had a city being ransacked and no one coordinating with police on what to do. It was orders on the run. So it ended up a free for all drenched in fear and confusion. I'm surprised more people were not shot.

Then you have the looters.
Racist cops.
Good cops
The commies.
The white supremacists.
The media.
The democrats.
The republicans.

So many vested interests. It's easier just pointing a finger at the top. Regardless of the fact this all kicked off in a historically democrat state with handpicked democrat leaders.

There are so many layers in this riot that the people that need to be heard get drowned out.
It's all political theatre for the upcoming elections.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> So many vested interests. It's easier just pointing a finger at the top. .




It sounds a very familiar ploy the media uses, but IMO it is only resonating with the minority, this could all backfire horribly for the left. Time will tell.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> I wonder what Trump will do next, holding a Bible in front of a church was fun.
> 
> From Fox News:
> Moments before 6:30 p.m., just when Trump said he would begin his address, the officers suddenly marched forward, directly confronting the protesters as many held up their hands, saying, “Don’t shoot."
> 
> Soon, law enforcement officers were aggressively forcing the protesters back, firing tear gas and deploying flash bangs into the crowd to disperse them from the park for seemingly no reason. It was a jarring scene as police in the nation's capital forcefully cleared young men and women gathered legally in a public park on a sunny evening, all of it on live television.



Whenever a President visits anywhere the crowd is held back, as has been shown recently the protesters can become violent, so what would you expect his security detail to do?

Cheering on bad behaviour doesn't allow either side to claim the moral high ground, everyone knows the police will react if the President is threatened, the crowd by putting themselves in danger by doing so makes them look stupid IMO.

Cheering on mobs of protesters, looters, vandals etc, doesn't raise the awareness of the cause, it actually diminishes the integrity of it IMO.

Even the family of the person who was murdered, has called for it to stop, but as usual the loonatics use any excuse to escalate an issue to cover their penchant desire for an audience.

Doing what Bryan Stevenson does, has a far greater message that will resonate with all people, not just the loonies.
Watch the movie 'Just Mercy", Knobby and let me know what you think.
IMO it highlights the issue, far more than chaotic mob violence scenes, it should be compulsory viewing in the U.S.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Knobby22

I don't know, just quoting Fox
Did you see the Channel 7 news get attacked?
Also the local vicar hit by pepper gas.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I
> Also the local vicar hit by pepper gas.



Send the nypd to the Vatican you reckon


----------



## bellenuit

Could things be starting to turn ....

*Murkowski calls Mattis’s criticism of Trump ‘necessary and overdue.’*

This is behind a paywall, so this is the text that goes with it.

_Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska on Thursday became the first Republican senator to say she was considering not voting for President Trump, as she endorsed scathing criticism of the president by James Mattis, the former defense secretary._

_Ms. Murkowski said the critique by Mr. Mattis on Wednesday, in which he said that Mr. Trump had divided the nation and failed to lead, was overdue and might be a tipping point that would cause Republicans to air concerns about the president that they had only spoken about privately.

Some Republican lawmakers have found fault with the president’shandling of the unrest convulsing the nation, but Ms. Murkowski was the most explicit so far in her support for the comments by Mr. Mattis, a former four-star Marine Corps general.


“I was really thankful,” Ms. Murkowski told reporters on Capitol Hill. “I thought General Mattis’s words were true and honest and necessary and overdue.”

Ms. Murkowski, one of the few Republicans in Congress who has been willing to break publicly with Mr. Trump, added that when she saw the Mattis statement, “I felt like perhaps we’re getting to the point where we can be more honest with the concerns that we might hold internally, and have the courage of our own convictions to speak up.”

Asked whether she could still support Mr. Trump in the coming election, Ms. Murkowski said: “I am struggling with it. I have struggled with it for a long time.”

In his statement, Mr. Mattis said: “Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people — does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership.”_


----------



## basilio

General Mattis is only the first senior military officer to express his concern about where Trump is taking teh country.
 
* 'Slide to illiberalism': ex-general joins chorus of condemnation of Trump *
John Allen warns that politicisation of the military could be the beginning of the end of ‘the American experiment’

The retired marine general who led the global coalition against Isis and commanded US forces in Afghanistan has warned that Donald Trump’s actions this week could start a US “ slide into illiberalism” and the beginning of the end of “the American experiment”.

In denouncing the president for his response to the George Floyd protests, John Allen became the latest in a string of venerable military figures to have gone public over what they describe as the threat posed by Trump to the non-political nature of the armed forces, and more broadly to US democracy.

Tensions over the role of the military in responding to the protests have also opened a rift between the president and his defence secretary, Mark Esper, who angered Trump on Wednesday by opposing the threatened use of the 1807 Insurrection Act to deploy troops on US streets.

Allen, now president of the Brookings Institution, also focused his criticism on the president’s threat on Monday to deploy the US military against protesters, and his use of force against a peaceful demonstration outside the White House so that he could be photographed holding a Bible in front of a church.

“The slide of the United States into illiberalism may well have begun on 1 June 2020. Remember the date. It may well signal the beginning of the end of the American experiment,” Allen wrote on the Foreign Policy website.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/04/trump-military-retired-general-john-allen-protest


----------



## IFocus

The US can aford a Trump in good times.........not so much when the going gets tough.


----------



## moXJO

The trend is moving away from trump. 
The only thing that could possibly be in his corner is his supporters enthusiasm.
It would take a large proportion of lazy dems to not vote.

 Which is why they are pushing the mail in voting. It's also why the republicans are opposed to it. Nothing to do with coronavirus or mail fraud. Simply it will benefit the dems or reps.


I highly doubt trump can win. 
But this year has been crazy so far. Who knows what's next.


----------



## Knobby22

I notice some of the hard line Trump supporters here have become a bit quiet.

Trump will heard his sheep through the usual fear tactics but some are starting to think for themselves.

As the coronavirus continues to kill and he does things like that Church stunt, some Republicans are starting to grow balls. They know 4 more years of Trump will be hard to  bear.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I notice some of the hard line Trump supporters here have become a bit quiet.
> 
> Trump will heard his sheep through the usual fear tactics but some are starting to think for themselves.
> 
> As the coronavirus continues to kill and he does things like that Church stunt, some Republicans are starting to grow balls. They know 4 more years of Trump will be hard to  bear.



The only one that ramped trump was me. And I could care less about the guy. It just got up people's noses and he is the world's greatest troll. He also did a few necessary things imo. 

The US leftism bleeds over into the rest of the world as well. Honestly the largest hive mind is the left (not center left). It's destructive thinking.

Trump supporters are in it for a number of reasons. From constitutional rights, China, UN, Defence, economy. He took a hit from the constant media noise. But it was a perfect storm that got trump in last time. It would be hard to replicate. And that was always the case going forward.

For right leaning Americans, they are now simply getting out of blue state's. Let the dems destroy their nest. There's a reason why there is a mass exodus of dems out of LA and into Texas.


----------



## basilio

Finally a righteous  "non white guy" has penned a Letter of Thanks to Donald Trump for his unparalleled leadership of the US. He  certainly could be the catalyst that changes the US for good.

_Dear President Trump, _
_I understand that this is an extremely busy time for you between the game of golf and tweets, but I hope you can be stimulated by a rare and welcome thank you letter from a black man, in such an uncomfortable moment in the history of the United States of America._

https://www.news1.news/en/2020/06/t...he-wolf-we-needed-to-really-fight-racism.html


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Finally a righteous  "non white guy" has penned a Letter of Thanks to Donald Trump for his unparalleled leadership of the US. He  certainly could be the catalyst that changes the US for good.
> 
> _Dear President Trump, _
> _I understand that this is an extremely busy time for you between the game of golf and tweets, but I hope you can be stimulated by a rare and welcome thank you letter from a black man, in such an uncomfortable moment in the history of the United States of America._
> 
> https://www.news1.news/en/2020/06/t...he-wolf-we-needed-to-really-fight-racism.html



I agree that Trump is indeed change. 
Burning it down, directly or through stupidity.
 He has caused more change then the last 5 presidents put together.

Just imagine the change maga2020 will make.
Come on bas get on board. Trump posts are 90% of ASF posts. You would have to retire if trump loses. Let's MASFGA and support HOH and all things trumpian.


----------



## basilio

*The Son of God declares that this a great day for George Floyd*

Donald Trump has claimed it is a ‘great day’ for George Floyd, after the US posted better than expected job numbers. ‘Hopefully, George is looking down right now and saying: “This is a great thing happening for our country,”’ the US president said of Floyd, who died while being restrained by police last week


----------



## bellenuit

This guy is just too kind to Trump ....

British Writer Pens The Best Description Of Trump I’ve Read

https://coming42.livejournal.com/479179.html


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> You would have to retire if trump loses.




No, we just all change places.


----------



## wayneL

dutchie said:


> No, we just all change places.



I wanna find out who the right wing Soros is, so if the left  get in, I can  get paid to incessantly post fake news like @basilio does now.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> I don't know, just quoting Fox
> Did you see the Channel 7 news get attacked?
> Also the local vicar hit by pepper gas.



As I have said, i dont watch the news, so I didnt see it.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I agree that Trump is indeed change.
> Burning it down, directly or through stupidity.
> He has caused more change then the last 5 presidents put together.
> 
> Just imagine the change maga2020 will make.
> Come on bas get on board. Trump posts are 90% of ASF posts. You would have to retire if trump loses. Let's MASFGA and support HOH and all things trumpian.



It is a good point moxjo, if Trump gets re elected, then all the ranters will be back onto climate change, the last thing they will do  is accept the majority decission.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> I notice some of the hard line Trump supporters here have become a bit quiet.
> 
> Trump will heard his sheep through the usual fear tactics but some are starting to think for themselves.
> 
> As the coronavirus continues to kill and he does things like that Church stunt, some Republicans are starting to grow balls. They know 4 more years of Trump will be hard to  bear.



I dont have an opinion either way, but what are you going to put it down to if Trump gets re elected? You and Bas have put a lot of expectation into the belief, that you know what the U.S believes, it will be interesting to see how well your beliefs line up with the U.S population.
We will have to wait untill November, to see if your loathing is recipricated in the U.S.


----------



## macca

sptrawler said:


> It is a good point moxjo, if Trump gets re elected, then all the ranters will be back onto climate change, the last thing they will do  is accept the majority decission.




The left only respect democracy if they win, if the right get elected the Left deliberately set out to undermine the popularly elected Govt.


----------



## sptrawler

macca said:


> The left only respect democracy if they win, if the right get elected the Left deliberately set out to undermine the popularly elected Govt.



Well taking South Africa as an example, history doesn't seem to have shown that since black majority rule, there has been a massive improvement in the social outcomes.
I may be wrong, but when I was there I certainly didn't see a thriving economy, with the people reaping the rewards of their ownership.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> As I have said, i dont watch the news, so I didnt see it.



Didn't read about it either?


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Didn't read about it either?



I definitely read about it, impossible not to. But I thought it was a channel 9 crew.


----------



## chiff

macca said:


> The left only respect democracy if they win, if the right get elected the Left deliberately set out to undermine the popularly elected Govt.



Reminds of of Whitlam's dismissal..the right never accepted the democratic vote.If they waited for the next election and voted him out all would have been above board.But with the help of two state premiers the right were able to change, or defy, the elected senate numbers and make Whitlam vulnerable.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> This guy is just too kind to Trump ....
> 
> British Writer Pens The Best Description Of Trump I’ve Read
> 
> https://coming42.livejournal.com/479179.html




Sharp little analysis wasn't it ?

Thought it was worth quoting the finale to that analysis as well as  hauling out  a picture of the breadth of Trumps lying history.

_This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss. After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of ****. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum. God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid. He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart. In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws – he would make a Trump.

And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish: ‘My God… what… have… I… created?' If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set.

_


----------



## macca

chiff said:


> Reminds of of Whitlam's dismissal..the right never accepted the democratic vote.If they waited for the next election and voted him out all would have been above board.But with the help of two state premiers the right were able to change, or defy, the elected senate numbers and make Whitlam vulnerable.




There was an interim Gov't put in place, an election was held ASAP, the result was a landslide endorsing the sacking.

Isn't democracy wonderful.........


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## Smurf1976

If I were running the Democrats then rather than whinging about Trump, I'd beat him instead.

It seems to me that they're not even trying to win here. That they're throwing the election is plain for all to see. I mean seriously, if that's the best they can do then they've either got practically zero support or they're just not trying.

Get someone credible and aged under 60, preferably under 50, and ditch the party's ideas which seem stuck in the 1990's. Move forward, get a serious candidate for President, win the election, stop the nonsense.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> If I were running the Democrats then rather than whinging about Trump, I'd beat him instead.
> 
> It seems to me that they're not even trying to win here. That they're throwing the election is plain for all to see. I mean seriously, if that's the best they can do then they've either got practically zero support or they're just not trying.
> 
> Get someone credible and aged under 60, preferably under 50, and ditch the party's ideas which seem stuck in the 1990's. Move forward, get a serious candidate for President, win the election, stop the nonsense.



Going off what is posted on here, it may be a situation like Australia where everyone expects Trump to lose, so they don't have to win.


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> Going off what is posted on here, it may be a situation like Australia where everyone expects Trump to lose, so they don't have to win.



I don't know.... Bill shorten was unelectable, yet the left (and I) were certain he was going to win.

 Perhaps the US factions are just as rabid as Australian ones are. Delusional all round.


----------



## dutchie

If Biden wins then China wins the world.


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> If Biden wins then China wins the world.



If Garpel Gumnut wins, Australia will maybe beat New Zealand in cricket.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> If Biden wins then China wins the world.



My guess is most people think that, and I reckon that is what will get him over the line, but who knows. It is all good entertainment. 
I find it weird that two old men are fighting to get a job, that ages people.


----------



## moXJO

I question if Trump even wants it again.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I question if Trump even wants it again.



I said this last year, the flak that he has taken, for trying to relocate the multinationals back to the U.S is unbelievable.
It isn't as though he needs the money, I'm surprised he doesn't just walk away and let the whole lot wallow in their selfishness.
I find it weird, that the people who constantly bash big business, for using third world sweat shops.
Now are at the beck and call of the very same companies, who want to keep the status quo and stop Trump's push.
I guess it all goes back to the old saying 'empty vessels...


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> I said this last year, the flak that he has taken, for trying to relocate the multinationals back to the U.S is unbelievable.
> It isn't as though he needs the money, I'm surprised he doesn't just walk away and let the whole lot wallow in their selfishness.
> I find it weird, that the people who constantly bash big business, for using third world sweat shops.
> Now are at the beck and call of the very same companies, who want to keep the status quo and stop Trump's push.
> I guess it all goes back to the old saying 'empty vessels...



I find the latest "defund police" that has actually got the go ahead in democrat controlled areas mind blowing. They are already crime ridden shtholes where police are stretched. 
They then move to conservative areas once it's been ruined.


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> I find the latest "defund police" that has actually got the go ahead in democrat controlled areas mind blowing. They are already crime ridden shtholes where police are stretched.
> They then move to conservative areas once it's been ruined.




Actually defunding the police would probably work in the US.
Everyone owns a gun, so everyone could do there own policing.
Would work like a charm.
It would certainly stop police systematically killing blacks.
There would be more deaths overall but think of the savings made in not having to pay for police.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> I'm surprised he doesn't just walk away and let the whole lot wallow in their selfishness.






moXJO said:


> I question if Trump even wants it again.




He certainly doesn't want it but he has no choice. If he doesn't retain power (and assuming a democrat wins) then he loses out on being able to use presidential privilege to hide his serious misdemeanours. His tax returns will be turned over to those investigating him on many fronts, the full evidence from the Mueller report would be released, not just that that Barr deemed could be seen, he will not have indemnity from prosecution which has prevented many current cases from going forward etc. etc.

As I understand it, if he can get a second term, by the time it ends, it will be outside the timeframe for prosecution on those issues (sorry I have forgotten the correct term for this) and he doesn't go to jail. He knows a democratic president would not pardon him.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> He certainly doesn't want it but he has no choice. If he doesn't retain power (and assuming a democrat wins) then he loses out on being able to use presidential privilege to hide his serious misdemeanours. His tax returns will be turned over to those investigating him on many fronts, the full evidence from the Mueller report would be released, not just that that Barr deemed could be seen, he will not have indemnity from prosecution which has prevented many current cases from going forward etc. etc.
> 
> As I understand it, if he can get a second term, by the time it ends, it will be outside the timeframe for prosecution on those issues (sorry I have forgotten the correct term for this) and he doesn't go to jail. He knows a democratic president would not pardon him.




That is certainly an interesting take, I've never heard it, but if it was the case don't you think he would keep a lower profile and wait out the time?


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> He certainly doesn't want it but he has no choice. If he doesn't retain power (and assuming a democrat wins) then he loses out on being able to use presidential privilege to hide his serious misdemeanours. His tax returns will be turned over to those investigating him on many fronts, the full evidence from the Mueller report would be released, not just that that Barr deemed could be seen, he will not have indemnity from prosecution which has prevented many current cases from going forward etc. etc.
> 
> As I understand it, if he can get a second term, by the time it ends, it will be outside the timeframe for prosecution on those issues (sorry I have forgotten the correct term for this) and he doesn't go to jail. He knows a democratic president would not pardon him.



I'm not so sure about that, if Biden  wins, he will have forgotten who the last president even was by November 8th


----------



## Knobby22

Anyone see Chris Pynes article in the Herald Sun?
He was in defence and so knows quite well some of Trumps staff. 
Greatly concerned.


----------



## macca

For me the most frustrating thing about America is that they 300m people and the best they can find to run for president are two old blokes well past their prime.

If the Dems had been honest with themselves after Trump won they would have started afresh, a completely new face/s and a new management team for Party policy.

The world needs a strong USA now more than any time in the past 20 years, China is muscling up and the only country likely to stop them is the USA.

Just like in Govt, a good opposition is needed to balance events.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> That is certainly an interesting take, I've never heard it, but if it was the case don't you think he would keep a lower profile and wait out the time?




I'm surprised you hadn’t heard it. He can’t keep a low profile as he needs to create chaos to deflect from his COVID-19 debacle and must do his utmost to rig the elections so he can’t lose. Thus his campaign against postal votes, his constant lies, attacks on the media.  

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politic...surviving-impeachment-could-face-15039866.php

*Trump, after surviving impeachment, could face charges if he loses election*


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> I'm surprised you hadn’t heard it. He can’t keep a low profile as he needs to create chaos to deflect from his COVID-19 debacle and must do his utmost to rig the elections so he can’t lose. Thus his campaign against postal votes, his constant lies, attacks on the media.
> 
> https://www.sfchronicle.com/politic...surviving-impeachment-could-face-15039866.php
> 
> *Trump, after surviving impeachment, could face charges if he loses election*



Well as I have said previously, going off the general negative postings on ASF and the media, there is no chance Trump will win the election.


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> As I understand it, if he can get a second term, by the time it ends, it will be outside the timeframe for prosecution on those issues (sorry I have forgotten the correct term for this) and he doesn't go to jail.




The Statute of Limitations was the term I couldn’t remember. For some of the *crimes* he is alleged to have done, particularly in relation to bribing and coercion of Ukrainian officials, the Statute of Limitations is 5 years, thus will have expired by the end of his second term if he wins. More in the article I posted above.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> I question if Trump even wants it again.



He wants to however...there is a large portion of Republican politicians trying to ensure he doesn't run again. If they could provide a respectable replacement they could win.

I will therefore be very surprised if he is still around,  come the election. 

The difficulty is how do they do it? How do they make him to resign or get rid of him by other means?


----------



## moXJO

It will be all down to his base. They were lining the streets in a recent video I saw. If the rallies get back up I think they will re-energize his supporters.

 The gun shops have literally been stripped bare and it's impossible to find certain kinds of ammo. Just because you have a few hundred thousand marching, doesn't mean you have widespread support at the booth.
Business and suburbs are looking on at the riots and looting. There are talking points that will swing voters. 

However, I haven't seen trump at this stage capitalise off it. At least not as feverishly as he has in the past.  I don't see much enthusiasm from his corner.

These riots also took the focus off the Obama spying case that's currently being investigated.
Maybe he lost a little advantage there.

I don't think he is worried about court after he loses.


----------



## wayneL

macca said:


> For me the most frustrating thing about America is that they 300m people and the best they can find to run for president are two old blokes well past their prime.
> 
> If the Dems had been honest with themselves after Trump won they would have started afresh, a completely new face/s and a new management team for Party policy.
> 
> The world needs a strong USA now more than any time in the past 20 years, China is muscling up and the only country likely to stop them is the USA.
> 
> Just like in Govt, a good opposition is needed to balance events.



Indeed, but all they could come up with was race baiters, SJW panderers, and Marxists.

To be honest I liked Tulsi, even if she was a little bit too far left for me. The fact that she got so little support really says something to me about the left in America.

Even more concerning is that the neoliberal branch at the democratic Party could only come up with a demented old fool who cannot even remember yesterday, is extremely alarming.

I think the big problem in America is that candidates feel they must appeal to the fringes, rather than the center.


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> ...there is a large portion of Republican politicians trying to ensure he doesn't run again.




There is a *significant* proportion of Republican politicians who believe Trump has  trashed the office and undermined the legitimacy of the Republician Party.

But there is no way on earth that group can  overturn Trumps nominations for President.

What they have decided to do is run *The Lincoln Project *which  has opened a Republican front  against Trump in the  November election. They want a vote for Biden because they they believe Trump is a menace.




*We Are Republicans, and We Want Trump Defeated*

The president and his enablers have replaced conservatism with an empty faith led by a bogus prophet.
https://lincolnproject.us/news/the-urgency-of-defeating-trump-falls-to-all-of-us/


----------



## moXJO

Trump enjoys large base loyalty. I can't see it shifting.
Dems have to vote for him to lose.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Trump enjoys large base loyalty. I can't see it shifting.
> Dems have to vote for him to lose.



Easiley 95% of my American colleagues are Trump supporters, and their support has only strengthened in the last few months.

I have no idea whether that means anything in the context of the upcoming election but, in my little professional and economic microcosm, Trump support is growing.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Easiley 95% of my American colleagues are Trump supporters, and their support has only strengthened in the last few months.
> 
> I have no idea whether that means anything in the context of the upcoming election but, in my little professional and economic microcosm, Trump support is growing.



They will easily switch to another Republican, let's see what happens.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> They will easily switch to another Republican, let's see what happens.



I don't think anyone has the profile, to be honest. I've always liked Rand Paul but he just doesn't seem to get the support.

Maybe that means I'm fringe, I don't know. I would like to see either Rand from the right or Tulsi from the left.

I don't really have a challenge with Trump, but have to admit that he is very divisive, that could be a very good thing in the next 4 years, or a very bad thing not sure which.

ETA... I hate autocorrect


----------



## basilio

A view of the upcoming election from senior UK diplomats. 

* UK diplomats fear end of special relationship if Trump re-elected *
Former senior officials also worry Britain may be sidelined if Joe Biden becomes president

.....In a sign of British diplomats’ despair with Trump, Sir Peter Westmacott, a former ambassador to Washington, said: “I would love to say, as we look to the future, would it not be nice to see political leadership also addressing old-fashioned principles such as accountability, respect for the rule of law, independent judiciary, telling the truth, institutional independence and indeed the importance of a free press?

“That may not be what public opinion is crying out for, but they are not very far removed from the principles that … Biden believes in. Otherwise the chances of the western world retaining any sort of moral leadership and giving itself the right to call out other people when they behave badly will be gone forever.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-of-special-relationship-if-trump-re-elected


----------



## moXJO

Who'd a thought trump was the progressive. Y'all wanted real change and Trumps the first in decades to deliver. Completely smashed the worlds systems.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Who'd a thought trump was the progressive. Y'all wanted real change and Trumps the first in decades to deliver. Completely smashed the worlds systems.




Indeed he has.. 
Hitler had a similar impact as did Stalin
First World War was also very effective at smashing theworlds systems.
Attila the Hun was quite impressive.
The Black Death  also managed to deliver remarkable changes.

Trump in is stellar company indeed..


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Trump in is stellar company indeed..



What a time to be alive


----------



## Knobby22

Disruption doesn't always create Progression.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Disruption doesn't always create Progression.



Progression is in the eye of the beholder.

#metoo was under trumps reign and a whole heap of democrats went under. Epstein was even liquidated. Now that's progressive!


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Progression is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> #metoo was under trumps reign and a whole heap of democrats went under. Epstein was even liquidated. Now that's progressive!



And a Fox executive. Overall I don't think there has been much progress in the USA for over twenty years. In fact they have gone backwards in many things as they are not adjusting to the new world due to political gridlock.


----------



## Knobby22

Latest polling, worth a read.
https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/trump-no-longer-the-odds-on-favorite-to-win-in-november


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Latest polling, worth a read.
> https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/trump-no-longer-the-odds-on-favorite-to-win-in-november



First comment says it all:

*Hillary had better numbers than Biden right before the election and then Democrats didn’t bother to vote and were also suppressed. It is important to track these things - yes - but Democrat voters are flaky and have lower turnout and likely Democrat voters don’t register or vote by the millions. There is a lot of “someone else will take care of it - I’m too busy attitudes”. Republicans are older and whiter and more likely to vote. The best thing Biden can do is hide and let Trump defeat himself. No one should be confident about the Democrat voter base. They’ll take a survey and go to a protest and then won’t vote.*


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-of-special-relationship-if-trump-re-elected



Ah.. The Guardian


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> Ah.. The Guardian




Ah Dutchie !


----------



## dutchie

Not only is Biden and his son corrupt, but so is his brother.
Charming family.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ccount-despite-owing-dead-mans-family-1M.html


----------



## basilio

Off Trump for the moment.
An interview with retired US General John Allen (former commander of the NATO International Security Assistance Force and U.S. Forces – Afghanistan (USFOR-A). Discusses leadership and his perspective on where the US is heading.


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> Ah.. The Guardian



THE GUARDIAN is facing calls to “shut down” for hypocrisy after backing BLM protests when it branded Abraham Lincoln “abhorrent” in the US Civil War.

Originally called the Manchester Guardian, the paper was founded in 1821 by John Edward Taylor using profits from a cotton plantation that used slaves.

Ha ha ha ha  the left eating the left  (you can't make it up).


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

dutchie said:


> THE GUARDIAN is facing calls to “shut down” for hypocrisy after backing BLM protests when it branded Abraham Lincoln “abhorrent” in the US Civil War.
> 
> Originally called the Manchester Guardian, the paper was founded in 1821 by John Edward Taylor using profits from a cotton plantation that used slaves.
> 
> Ha ha ha ha  the left eating the left  (you can't make it up).




The Democrats were the party of the KKK and defended slavery, back in the day. Why aren't these social justice warriors demanding that the Democrat Party be disbanded, as it is symbolic of the KKK and slavery?


----------



## basilio

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The Democrats were the party of the KKK and defended slavery, back in the day. Why aren't these social justice warriors demanding that the Democrat Party be disbanded, as it is symbolic of the KKK and slavery?




Perhaps because they are not as totally brain dead as people who make such calls ?


----------



## qldfrog

bellenuit said:


> The Statute of Limitations was the term I couldn’t remember. For some of the *crimes* he is alleged to have done, particularly in relation to bribing and coercion of Ukrainian officials, the Statute of Limitations is 5 years, thus will have expired by the end of his second term if he wins. More in the article I posted above.



are we talking about Bidden? I am confused, Bidden was the one briding the ukrainians..ohh sorry I was talking justice and laws not Trump bashing...And Bidden is clean as this is covered by Statute of Limitations in Ukraine...
Bellenuit, very disappointed...Bidden and son firing a procecutor...ahhh  just old history
UNBELIEVABLE


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Perhaps because they are not as totally brain dead as people who make such calls ?



Ohhh.... the irony!!!!!

LMFAO!


----------



## bellenuit

qldfrog said:


> are we talking about Bidden? I am confused, Bidden was the one briding the ukrainians..ohh sorry I was talking justice and laws not Trump bashing...And Bidden is clean as this is covered by Statute of Limitations in Ukraine...
> Bellenuit, very disappointed...Bidden and son firing a procecutor...ahhh  just old history
> UNBELIEVABLE




Of course you are confused, that's why you believe Trump. I guess Fox News didn't run this 11 days ago:

*Ukraine found no evidence against Hunter Biden in case audit: former top prosecutor*

*https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ase-audit-former-top-prosecutor-idUSKBN23B2RB
*
And if Hunter Biden did nothing wrong, as pretty much everyone who worked in the US Embassy in Ukraine knew, there was no reason for his dad to offer bribes to get a prosecutor fired. But we do know Trump tried to bribe the Ukraine into throwing dirt at the Bidens, by withholding funds badly needed in its war with Russia, as well as engaging with a multitude of shady characters through his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani. 

But, Joe Biden did try to get a prosecutor removed, along with many in the Republican party and also many European leaders, because the guy was corrupt and was stymieing efforts for reform in the Ukraine. His corruption was attested to by several of the professional diplomats and government agents that were called as witnesses in the impeachment hearings.

*Ukrainian prosecutors just blew up Trump's Hunter Biden conspiracy theories: report*

*https://www.salon.com/2020/06/05/uk...ter-biden-conspiracy-theories-report_partner/
*
You really ought not to limit yourself to one news source.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Of course you are confused, that's why you believe Trump. I guess Fox News didn't run this 11 days ago:
> 
> *Ukraine found no evidence against Hunter Biden in case audit: former top prosecutor*
> 
> *https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ase-audit-former-top-prosecutor-idUSKBN23B2RB
> *
> And if Hunter Biden did nothing wrong, as pretty much everyone who worked in the US Embassy in Ukraine knew, there was no reason for his dad to offer bribes to get a prosecutor fired. But we do know Trump tried to bribe the Ukraine into throwing dirt at the Bidens, by withholding funds badly needed in its war with Russia, as well as engaging with a multitude of shady characters through his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
> 
> But, Joe Biden did try to get a prosecutor removed, along with many in the Republican party and also many European leaders, because the guy was corrupt and was stymieing efforts for reform in the Ukraine. His corruption was attested to by several of the professional diplomats and government agents that were called as witnesses in the impeachment hearings.
> 
> *Ukrainian prosecutors just blew up Trump's Hunter Biden conspiracy theories: report*
> 
> *https://www.salon.com/2020/06/05/uk...ter-biden-conspiracy-theories-report_partner/
> *
> You really ought not to limit yourself to one news source.



Salon is not a legit news source. Is there any other links?


----------



## moXJO

The whole Biden Ukraine thing was not cut and dry. Bit more on it here: https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/the...os-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story?amp


Something definitely went on. Same with 
FBI and the Russian scandal.
Obama bugging trump.
Hillary and her private servers.
The company that was formed to assemble the "pee pee" dossier. 
And all the other dodgy crap that went on.


----------



## basilio

This thread is about Donald Trump and where he is taking the US. The latest headline should give us even more concern at his credibility to lead the country. Apparently the way to beat  the coronavirus is to stop looking for it.

*Trump on coronavirus: 'If we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases, if any'*

President Trump on Monday downplayed concerns of a rising number of coronavirus cases in states across the country, indicating that the increase was due to more testing.

"If we stop testing right now, we’d have very few cases, if any,” Trump said during a White House event highlighting administration actions to help senior citizens.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...top-testing-right-now-wed-have-very-few-cases


----------



## qldfrog

bellenuit said:


> Of course you are confused, that's why you believe Trump. I guess Fox News didn't run this 11 days ago:
> 
> *Ukraine found no evidence against Hunter Biden in case audit: former top prosecutor*
> 
> *https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ase-audit-former-top-prosecutor-idUSKBN23B2RB
> *
> And if Hunter Biden did nothing wrong, as pretty much everyone who worked in the US Embassy in Ukraine knew, there was no reason for his dad to offer bribes to get a prosecutor fired. But we do know Trump tried to bribe the Ukraine into throwing dirt at the Bidens, by withholding funds badly needed in its war with Russia, as well as engaging with a multitude of shady characters through his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
> 
> But, Joe Biden did try to get a prosecutor removed, along with many in the Republican party and also many European leaders, because the guy was corrupt and was stymieing efforts for reform in the Ukraine. His corruption was attested to by several of the professional diplomats and government agents that were called as witnesses in the impeachment hearings.
> 
> *Ukrainian prosecutors just blew up Trump's Hunter Biden conspiracy theories: report*
> 
> *https://www.salon.com/2020/06/05/uk...ter-biden-conspiracy-theories-report_partner/
> *
> You really ought not to limit yourself to one news source.



Seriously, my disappointment is at the level of my initial respect, and where do you think i get my info from?fox news?
Sure i am not even opening the guardian site anymore, but nor do i the Chinese paper

A clear proof rabid anti Trump can lead astray the most usually balanced person.
Obviously impossible to ever change your mind if convinced on that very subject..the epiphany of US Democrat sxxt and lies.
 so no point arguing.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Salon is not a legit news source. Is there any other links?




Didn't you notice Reuters? And Salon was reporting a Guardian story. And if you do a web search you will find dozens of other sources. Do you need to be spoon-fed?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> Perhaps because they are not as totally brain dead as people who make such calls ?




That's not nice Basilio. I was merely stating the facts.

Perhaps you might be able to come to the same conclusion in you looked at the American civil war/ late 19th century US presidential election maps .

Or you can have a read here: https://www.americanthinker.com/art...t_racist_history_of_the_democratic_party.html


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

qldfrog said:


> Seriously, my disappointment is at the level of my initial respect, and where do you think i get my info from?fox news?
> Sure i am not even opening the guardian site anymore, but nor do i the Chinese paper
> 
> A clear proof rabid anti Trump can lead astray the most usually balanced person.
> Obviously impossible to ever change your mind if convinced on that very subject..the epiphany of US Democrat sxxt and lies.
> so no point arguing.




You can't bring up factual recorded history with emotional people. They just fly off the handle with personal insults.

It is established fact that the Democrats were the party of the South, slavery and the KKK. It was the Republicans that fought for the freedom of black slaves.


----------



## macca

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You can't bring up factual recorded history with emotional people. They just fly off the handle with personal insults.
> 
> It is established fact that the Democrats were the party of the South, slavery and the KKK. It was the Republicans that fought for the freedom of black slaves.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats#:~:text=1861-1933,in rebellion to reject secession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> Indeed he has..
> Hitler had a similar impact as did Stalin
> First World War was also very effective at smashing theworlds systems.
> Attila the Hun was quite impressive.
> The Black Death  also managed to deliver remarkable changes.
> 
> Trump in is stellar company indeed..




The Democrats were the party of the South, slavery and the KKK!

Here is the US presidential electoral map of 1860, just before the American Civil War





Red Republication
Green Southern Democrat
Blue Northern Democrat
Orange Union


Once all the dust had settled after the American Civil War; starting from the 1880 US presidential elections, you will notice a clear demarcation between the Northern Red Republican States and the Southern Blue Democrat States, signifying the racial undercurrent.

*The Republicans liberated the Blacks! End of Story!*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

macca said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats#:~:text=1861-1933,in rebellion to reject secession.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party



Sorry buddy, the US electoral map of 1860 is set in stone. The Republicans liberated the blacks and the Democrats fought to keep them enslaved!


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

macca said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats#:~:text=1861-1933,in rebellion to reject secession.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party




"*Southern Democrats* are members of the U.S. Democratic Party who reside in the Southern United States.

In the 19th century, Southern Democrats were whites in the South who believed in Jacksonian democracy. In the 1850s they defended slavery in the United States, and promoted its expansion into the West against northern Free Soil opposition."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats)


----------



## dutchie

Biden: 'Republicans May Have Standards, But We Have Double Standards'

PHILADELPHIA, PA—During a campaign speech Tuesday, Joe Biden proudly declared that while Republicans have at least some standards, Democrats are going above and beyond with their "double standards."


Biden pointed out that by having two sets of standards, Democrats are leading the race for having the most sets of standards.

"That's two times as many standards," he said proudly. "Double is a lot more than single. Anyone who's ever watched a baseball game knows that."

https://babylonbee.com/


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Perhaps because they are not as totally brain dead as people who make such calls ?



???????


----------



## IFocus

So the story so far is......Donald is good (actually very good, the greatest) Republicans have very high moral standards (much higher than Dems)and the riots and looting are Hillary's fault.......


Just thought I would clear that up, carry on chaps.


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> So the story so far is......Donald is good (actually very good, the greatest) Republicans have very high moral standards (much higher than Dems)and the riots and looting are Hillary's fault.......
> 
> Just thought I would clear that up, carry on chaps.




Thanks IF.  Bit of perspective.

Really silly isn't it. 160 years ago the US Democrats were the dominant party in the South and did support slavery. They were still actively racist  way into the 20th Century.Think 1960's

Do we think the Republican Party were non racist during this period ?  What evidence is there that Northerners were welcoming the freed slaves? 

The US as a whole has a wretched attitude to racism. In 2020 the Democrats have evolved to the stage they are actively trying to redress the situation. As compared to ?


----------



## basilio

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You can't bring up factual recorded history with emotional people. They just fly off the handle with personal insults.




One can  with me Chronos -  if in fact the history is  reasonably complete, somewhat fair  and relevant.
Your selection and conclusion is neither complete nor relevant to what is happening how. 
The attempts to say disband the Democrats  now because  they were badly racist x years ago is just disingenuous.


----------



## moXJO

Well all the shooting of blacks, looting and rioting occurred in democrat controlled areas. 
So yes it is all the democrats fault. 
Hillary said Robert Byrd (a kkk member) was a mentor. Here's the video:



Anything else?


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Didn't you notice Reuters? And Salon was reporting a Guardian story. And if you do a web search you will find dozens of other sources. Do you need to be spoon-fed?



It was a misleading story with little facts on the case. You are left thinking that they are exonerated when that isn't the case.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Thanks IF.  Bit of perspective.
> 
> Really silly isn't it. 160 years ago the US Democrats were the dominant party in the South and did support slavery. They were still actively racist  way into the 20th Century.Think 1960's
> 
> Do we think the Republican Party were non racist during this period ?  What evidence is there that Northerners were welcoming the freed slaves?
> 
> The US as a whole has a wretched attitude to racism. In 2020 the Democrats have evolved to the stage they are actively trying to redress the situation. As compared to ?



They are?

Race baiting is not trying to redress the situation! Race baiting IS racism bas. Democrats are still the racists.

this is the racism that says you were only deserving to be regarded as black so long as you support the democrats. if you support the republicans your automatically a race traitor and any number of other names that they might use, uncle Tom etcetera.

Is the racism of low expectations based on skin colour.

the democrats have created a more toxic form of racism than has been in the US for decades.

the claim that democrats are trying to redress the situation is absolutely ridiculous


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> One can  with me Chronos -  if in fact the history is  reasonably complete, somewhat fair  and relevant.
> Your selection and conclusion is neither complete nor relevant to what is happening how.
> The attempts to say disband the Democrats  now because  they were badly racist x years ago is just disingenuous.




I wasn't advocating to disband them, I was merely applying the same measure that the Democrats are applying with sanctioning the removal of statues.

Here is another one for the Democrats. The Democrat Donkey has represented the Democrats since the Jacksonian Era:







Andrew Jackson defended slavery and Jacksonian political philosophy was maintained by the Southern Democrats and rejected by the Northern Republicans, a central sticking point that led to the American Civil War.

Why are the Democrats still using the Donkey, which is symbolic of an era of slavery, to represent their party!


----------



## basilio

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I wasn't advocating to disband them, I was merely applying the same measure that the Democrats are applying with sanctioning the removal of statues.
> 
> Here is another one for the Democrats. The Democrat Donkey has represented the Democrats since the Jacksonian Era:
> 
> View attachment 104873
> 
> 
> Andrew Jackson defended slavery and Jacksonian political philosophy was maintained by the Southern Democrats and rejected by the Northern Republicans, a central sticking point that led to the American Civil War.
> 
> Why are the Democrats still using the Donkey, which is symbolic of an era of slavery, to represent their party!




Hmm.  You were  directing the conversation about challenging statues erected to former  famous people to saying why not disband an entire current political party.  In my view that was just a monumental misdirection of the discussion. There is no comparison and, again IMV, it's chief intention is to move away from discussing why people are getting really antsy about past and current racism in our societies.

I think the whole issue  attacking statues has become overblown to the point of  madness. I think one solution is to add further information about peoples lives that recognises they weren't all gallant and wonderful. 

But that is still beside the point. The reason millions of people in the US , black and white, are protesting is because of the casual, deadly racism that is now evident in the policing practices across the country.   Donald Trump isn't budging an inch on this issue. He still sees it as a Law and Order baton to beat up political opponents with and to give a nod and wink to the White Supremacists who are an important party of his support group.
------------------------
With regard to the Democrats logo. It's strange isn't it ? I  agree its very outdated and  one would think it should be reviewed if only becasue it seems faintly ridiculous.  But it did reflect a particular time and some strong principles as well.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Hmm.  You were  directing the conversation about challenging statues erected to former  famous people to saying why not disband an entire current political party.  In my view that was just a monumental misdirection of the discussion. There is no comparison and, again IMV, it's chief intention is to move away from discussing why people are getting really antsy about past and current racism in our societies.
> 
> I think the whole issue  attacking statues has become overblown to the point of  madness. I think one solution is to add further information about peoples lives that recognises they weren't all gallant and wonderful.
> 
> But that is still beside the point. The reason millions of people in the US , black and white, are protesting is because of the casual, deadly racism that is now evident in the policing practices across the country.   Donald Trump isn't budging an inch on this issue. He still sees it as a Law and Order baton to beat up political opponents with and to give a nod and wink to the White Supremacists who are an important party of his support group.
> ------------------------
> With regard to the Democrats logo. It's strange isn't it ? I  agree its very outdated and  one would think it should be reviewed if only becasue it seems faintly ridiculous.  But it did reflect a particular time and some strong principles as well.




Trump banned choke holds unless life threatening and something else (I didn't catch) in response to all this.


----------



## basilio

Very interesting documentary on the expansion and political control of the Ku Klux Klan in Colorado in the 1920's.  Worth learning a bit more about this part of US history and the control they had over the state.

Tale about shades of Hitler..!!


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> Very interesting documentary on the expansion and political control of the Ku Klux Klan in Colorado in the 1920's.  Worth learning a bit more about this part of US history and the control they had over the state.
> 
> Tale about shades of Hitler..!!






The KKK are certainly a domestic terrorist group; in saying this Black Lives Matter are also a domestic terrorist group as defined by the US Patriot Act.


----------



## spooly74

Ouch.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

spooly74 said:


> Ouch.





That was excellent.


----------



## basilio

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The KKK are certainly a domestic terrorist group; in saying thi*s Black Lives Matter are also a domestic terrorist group as defined by the US Patriot Act.*



That is just plain  disastrously wrong  Chronos. If the Patriot Act defines  "Black Lives Matter"  as  terrorist groups the the Act is unconscionable. But again this is just another  example of a (outrageous ) diversion employed by  your average rightist writers/websites to deflect attention from the issues raised by repeated unjustifiable killings of blacks  by law enforcement  officers in the  US.

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> That is just plain  disastrously wrong  Chronos. If the Patriot Act defines  "Black Lives Matter"  as  terrorist groups the the Act is unconscionable. But again this is just another  example of a (outrageous ) diversion employed by  your average rightist writers/websites to deflect attention from the issues raised by repeated unjustifiable killings of blacks  by law enforcement  officers in the  US.
> 
> Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States




Stop with the outrage please; can we just have an amicable discussion.

The US Patriot Act is well defined and clear. Black Lives Matter engage in acts that are intimidating and violent for political gain and purpose.


----------



## SirRumpole

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Black Lives Matter engage in acts that are intimidating and violent for political gain and purpose.




How many people have they killed ?

I believe that ALL lives matter and that we shouldn't discriminate either in favour of or against certain groups of people, but I don't think that BLM have (yet) morphed into a terrorist group. The potential for that is there though if they let themselves be manipulated by ultra leftists but hopefully they won't be silly enough to destroy their credibility in that manner.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

SirRumpole said:


> How many people have they killed ?
> 
> I believe that ALL lives matter and that we shouldn't discriminate either in favour of or against certain groups of people, but I don't think that BLM have (yet) morphed into a terrorist group. The potential for that is there though if they let themselves be manipulated by ultra leftists but hopefully they won't be silly enough to destroy their credibility in that manner.




The legal US Patriot Act is very clear; you don't need to have killed another to engage in terrorism.

Which brings us to the two Greens workers that desecrated the statue in Sydney. They should be charged with an act of terrorism because their acts were violent and intimidating, which had significant political motive.


----------



## SirRumpole

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The legal US Patriot Act is very clear; you don't need to have killed another to engage in terrorism.
> 
> Which brings us to the two Greens workers that desecrated the statue in Sydney. They should be charged with an act of terrorism because their acts were violent and intimidating, which had significant political motive.




That's going a bit far. Charged with vandalism yes, but terrorism ?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

SirRumpole said:


> That's going a bit far. Charged with vandalism yes, but terrorism ?




This is the legal world that we are arguing within.

Does the vandalism feel intimidating when you are there and see it? I say Yes, it does.

Is the vandalism politically motivated? I say Yes, most definitely.

They should be charged with an Act of terrorism, in my opinion.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> That is just plain  disastrously wrong  Chronos. If the Patriot Act defines  "Black Lives Matter"  as  terrorist groups the the Act is unconscionable. But again this is just another  example of a (outrageous ) diversion employed by  your average rightist writers/websites to deflect attention from the issues raised by repeated unjustifiable killings of blacks  by law enforcement  officers in the  US.
> 
> Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States




Bas, have you read the BLM site? Do you know their goals?


----------



## IFocus

*This model forecast the US's current unrest a decade ago. It now says 'civil war'*

In an unpublished paper submitted for peer review, Professor Goldstone, who is a sociologist, and Peter Turchin, an expert on the mathematical modelling of historical societies, have concluded that the US is "headed for another civil war".


*https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/prog...tes-disorder-now-points-to-civil-war/12365280*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

IFocus said:


> *This model forecast the US's current unrest a decade ago. It now says 'civil war'*
> 
> In an unpublished paper submitted for peer review, Professor Goldstone, who is a sociologist, and Peter Turchin, an expert on the mathematical modelling of historical societies, have concluded that the US is "headed for another civil war".
> 
> 
> *https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/prog...tes-disorder-now-points-to-civil-war/12365280*





IFocus said:


> *This model forecast the US's current unrest a decade ago. It now says 'civil war'*
> 
> In an unpublished paper submitted for peer review, Professor Goldstone, who is a sociologist, and Peter Turchin, an expert on the mathematical modelling of historical societies, have concluded that the US is "headed for another civil war".
> 
> 
> *https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/prog...tes-disorder-now-points-to-civil-war/12365280*




I give the professor a challenge; that I will be closer to the electoral map in the US presidential elections than him.

I will published 1 month before the election.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

wayneL said:


> They are?
> 
> Race baiting is not trying to redress the situation! Race baiting IS racism bas. Democrats are still the racists.
> 
> this is the racism that says you were only deserving to be regarded as black so long as you support the democrats. if you support the republicans your automatically a race traitor and any number of other names that they might use, uncle Tom etcetera.
> 
> Is the racism of low expectations based on skin colour.
> 
> the democrats have created a more toxic form of racism than has been in the US for decades.
> 
> the claim that democrats are trying to redress the situation is absolutely ridiculous




I think that I should be an advisor to Donald.

*Do you think I can pick the States of uncertainty?*


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Bas, have you read the BLM site? Do you know their goals?




Just did.  Well worth a read. If  anyone  thinks this somehow represents a terrorist organisation - as distinct from a group that is organsing and advocating to defend/advance its community then perhaps they should check the US constitution. 

*What We Believe*
Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/


----------



## basilio

Another perspective on race relations in US.
*Inside The Dangerous Online Fever Swamps Of American Police*
*Cops have a far-right media ecosystem of their own, where they post racist memes, spread disinformation and call for violence against antifa.*

Around the time news broke on Monday afternoon that the New York City Police Department would disband plainclothes anti-crime units that had been tied to several high-profile police shootings, someone calling themselves “ltdad613” started a thread on Thee Rant, a police message board that purports to host current and former NYPD employees. “I wouldn’t want to be a [Commanding Officer] for the next few compstats,” ltdad613 wrote. “This is right from [New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio]. I feel for anybody still on the job.”

Elsewhere, the posts on Thee Rant were much darker. In one Monday thread, “dominop” wrote that “A Firing squad would be a good cure for ANTIFA!!!” Other users chimed in to say snipers or napalm might be more fitting.

Thee Rant is just one node in a wider web of right-wing police media. On similar message boards, in Facebook groups and on news sites such as Law Enforcement Today — a sort of Breitbart-like outlet written by and for police — there is a fervent narrative that police are under nonstop siege, and that antifa in particular is a constant threat.

This police media ecosystem is not necessarily a broad representation of what most cops believe. But inside this echo chamber, which has thousands of users and readers, extremist views dictate the narrative. Wild misinformation and bigotry are rampant, with people who claim to be current and former officers posting debunked falsehoods and racist stereotypes about protesters.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...Fii4II5POoPFi8DEiVuzJM4y-yG3rtu0EW0CxkzuLpIh_


----------



## basilio

*‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ Prequel Has Dropped And It’s Pretty Dark*







Netflix has released the much-anticipated prequel to _The Handmaid’s Tale_, which reveals the backstory of how the United States disintegrated from a powerful, respected democracy into the darkly dystopian ‘Gilead’ of Margaret Atwood’s famous book.

A trailer – released today – shows tanks rolling down quiet suburban streets, police shooting at law-abiding citizens and the President threatening to shut down the media. In one chilling episode, the President specifically threatens to shoot protesters. 

We also learn how the Bible is used as a prop to serve the totalitarian regime, how the media is silenced, and how the government begins to change laws to gain further control over woman’s reproductive systems. In one iconic scene, ten men sign a new law restricting aid to countries offering abortion.

Critics have labelled The Handmaid’s Tale prequel as unrealistic and over the top.

The Handmaid’s Tale prequel is live now.
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/06/05/the-handmaids-tale-prequel-has-dropped-and-its-pretty-dark/


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 104930



As much as Bolton was a "swamp thing", I'd believe the story given what we know of trump.
I'd also bet most of them have done the same thing over the years.


----------



## bellenuit

*Donald Trump ‘asked Xi Jinping to help him win re-election’, John Bolton claims*

*https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wo...s/news-story/2df1b19d50853d4a3490143b00ee8859*


----------



## bellenuit

*The 7 most disturbing allegations about Trump in John Bolton’s forthcoming book*

*https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21294680/john-bolton-book-excerpts-trump-ukraine-china*


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 104930




Pretty stunning stuff.

It will be interesting to see any evidence trail.  In this day and age it would need to be a mile wide and mile deep to have grip with this current political system.

It's amazing isn't it. If your an ordinary guy in the US,  what  standard of evidence does it take to have you convicted or just  killed while resisting arrest?

On the the other hand if your the biggest lying  xxxx xxxx of a President who ever disgraced the office you can just deny anything and everything and get away with it. 

And 40 million people will still  believe you with all their soul.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> And 40 million people will still  believe you with all their soul.




And even if they can't prove you guilty because there is no evidence
40 million people will still say you are guilty with all their soul.

Boring


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> Pretty stunning stuff.
> 
> It will be interesting to see any evidence trail.  In this day and age it would need to be a mile wide and mile deep to have grip with this current political system.
> 
> It's amazing isn't it. If your an ordinary guy in the US,  what  standard of evidence does it take to have you convicted or just  killed while resisting arrest?
> 
> On the the other hand if your the biggest lying  xxxx xxxx of a President who ever disgraced the office you can just deny anything and everything and get away with it.
> 
> And 40 million people will still  believe you with all their soul.



I was just having a read of Trump's tweets.


----------



## basilio

Chronos-Plutus said:


> View attachment 104949
> 
> I was just having a read of Trump's tweets.




And your thoughts were ?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> And your thoughts were ?



I like to read both sides of the story.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

dutchie said:


> And even if they can't prove you guilty because there is no evidence
> 40 million people will still say you are guilty with all their soul.
> 
> Boring




It is just part of American politics. The Republicans did it to Clinton and now the Democrats are doing it to Trump as payback.

I am still working through electoral college map to predict the US election; but I have to admit, Trump is going to find it difficult to hold the Rust Belt states and Florida.


----------



## moXJO

Chronos-Plutus said:


> It is just part of American politics. The Republicans did it to Clinton and now the Democrats are doing it to Trump as payback.
> 
> I am still working through electoral college map to predict the US election; but I have to admit, Trump is going to find it difficult to hold the Rust Belt states and Florida.



I don't think he can take it.
Short of the blm protesters causing havoc further down the track, he has a lot of ground to make up. 
Postal votes will also work against him.
He is bringing his rallies back, so may give him  a boost.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> And your thoughts were ?



You do know who Bolton is?
Guy is a bloody war hawk.

Not scared to lie either.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> I don't think he can take it.
> Short of the blm protesters causing havoc further down the track, he has a lot of ground to make up.
> Postal votes will also work against him.
> He is bringing his rallies back, so may give him  a boost.



Timing is pretty important in politics so I'm wondering if Trump is keeping his powder dry or whether there is actually no powder left in the storehouse. I'm on the fence there... I guess we shall see in due course.

I'm just hoping that I can unwind a pretty large macro position that I have on before the election, because I think after that, all bets are off no matter who wins.... And it will probably make the difference between drinking either Dom Perignon or VB into my dotage


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> Timing is pretty important in politics so I'm wondering if Trump is keeping his powder dry or whether there is actually no powder left in the storehouse. I'm on the fence there... I guess we shall see in due course.




Very hard to tell. Media suppresses anything relevant that it's hard to get an angle. Google has been locking crap down as well.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Very hard to tell. Media suppresses anything relevant that it's hard to get an angle. Google has been locking crap down as well.



Indeed. That the extreme left has captured silicon valley, and conservatives have apparently been consuming too many phytoestrogens, is extremely concerning.


----------



## spooly74

wayneL said:


> Timing is pretty important in politics so I'm wondering if Trump is keeping his powder dry or whether there is actually no powder left in the storehouse. I'm on the fence there... I guess we shall see in due course.



Couple of things i think we'll see come out before November.
-FISA abuse exposed/indictments
-Real Ukraine Scandal exposed
Barr & Durham have been operating quietly behind the scenes and they have it all.
Jail time is coming for the coup plotters and they'll sing like canaries. No doubt it goes all the way to the tOp!

What have the Dems got left in the tank? A senile, creppy, sleepy fool who you wouldn't trust to walk your dog. The amount of ads Trump will generate showing the demise of the Dems over the last 3 years is endless. 'Defund the Police' .... That's gonna sit well with your average punter!

Trump in a landslide.


----------



## wayneL

spooly74 said:


> Trump in a landslide.



It damn well should be.

I won't deny that Trump has disappointed on some levels, but when you look at the competition, if he doesn't win, there is something seriously wrong with this world (and yes it is seriously f'd up).


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

moXJO said:


> I don't think he can take it.
> Short of the blm protesters causing havoc further down the track, he has a lot of ground to make up.
> Postal votes will also work against him.
> He is bringing his rallies back, so may give him  a boost.



I will do the scenario analysis of the electoral college map within the next 2 weeks. I already know that the Trump vs Biden battleground will likely take place in the Rust Belt and Florida; with it spilling over, to an extent, into the Corn and Wheat Belt.


----------



## moXJO

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I will do the scenario analysis of the electoral college map within the next 2 weeks. I already know that the Trump vs Biden battleground will likely take place in the Rust Belt and Florida; with it spilling over, to an extent, into the Corn and Wheat Belt.



Be interesting to see.


----------



## IFocus

Trump is so divisive beats me why any logical thinking supports him.

Just with the unfunded tax cuts alone he has raised the US debt level beyond possible repayment.

As for Biden unbelievable the Dems have put him up but that is US politics note senility would not be new to the White House Reagan was gone long before the end of his term and is highly regarded.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Trump is so divisive beats me why any logical thinking supports him.
> 
> Just with the unfunded tax cuts alone he has raised the US debt level beyond possible repayment.



Yeah good point. The Democrats aren't divisive at all! Nope, not one iota! The Dems will heal the world and have everyone singing Kumbaya, exchanging  love and goodwill. 

.

.


.


.


.



PAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> Trump is so divisive beats me why any logical thinking supports him.
> 
> Just with the unfunded tax cuts alone he has raised the US debt level beyond possible repayment.
> 
> As for Biden unbelievable the Dems have put him up but that is US politics note senility would not be new to the White House Reagan was gone long before the end of his term and is highly regarded.




Listening to Biden speak, there is no way in a hundred years that he is senile. The very occasional slurred word and the very occasional memory slip are not representative of his ongoing mental capacity, which is still acute. 

I agree he wasn't the best choice and they should have gone for a younger man, but the senility meme is just something pushed by Fox, as they also pushed the health issues of Clinton, but seem unaware of the daily physical and mental missteps by Trump.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Listening to Biden speak, there is no way in a hundred years that he is senile. The very occasional slurred word and the very occasional memory slip are not representative of his ongoing mental capacity, which is still acute.
> 
> I agree he wasn't the best choice and they should have gone for a younger man, but the senility meme is just something pushed by Fox, as they also pushed the health issues of Clinton, but seem unaware of the daily physical and mental missteps by Trump.



Guy isn't all there, or "socially aware".
The whole lifeguard speech of kids coming up and rubbing his legs and jumping in his lap..... Jesus talk about a negative sound bite.

He is from an era that's well and truly past.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

bellenuit said:


> Listening to Biden speak, there is no way in a hundred years that he is senile. The very occasional slurred word and the very occasional memory slip are not representative of his ongoing mental capacity, which is still acute.
> 
> I agree he wasn't the best choice and they should have gone for a younger man, but the senility meme is just something pushed by Fox, as they also pushed the health issues of Clinton, but seem unaware of the daily physical and mental missteps by Trump.



Biden will be 78 if he becomes president. You know that High Court judges in Australia must retire at 70 as cognitive decline starts kicking in. This virus pandemic will work in Biden's favour because he clearly doesn't have the energy for a full-on campaign against Trump.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

moXJO said:


> Guy isn't all there, or "socially aware".
> The whole lifeguard speech of kids coming up and rubbing his legs and jumping in his lap..... Jesus talk about a negative sound bite.
> 
> He is from an era that's well and truly past.



Biden is very touchy feely with the children, that is clear.


----------



## basilio

Big challenge coming for the Trump administration. Berman is currently investigating a number of Trumps allies. Trump and Barr are trying to sack him. He won't walk.

*US attorney Geoffrey Berman refusing to leave after being fired by Trump administration*

*Key points:*

Mr Berman says his office's investigations will move on without delay
Mr Berman was appointed in January 2018 after the former US attorney was fired
Geoffrey Berman has led investigations into some of Donald Trump's close allies
https://www.startribune.com/us-attorney-who-oversaw-cases-of-trump-allies-steps-down/571381892/


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Guy isn't all there, or "socially aware".
> The whole lifeguard speech of kids coming up and rubbing his legs and jumping in his lap..... Jesus talk about a negative sound bite.
> 
> He is from an era that's well and truly past.



I can't help thinking that Trump will absolutely eat Biden alive when the debates come around.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Yeah good point. The Democrats aren't divisive at all! Nope, not one iota! The Dems will heal the world and have everyone singing Kumbaya, exchanging  love and goodwill.
> 
> .
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> PAHAHAHAHAHA!!!





Dems are not in the White House, afraid the old its all Hillary's fault just doesn't pass muster for Trumps divisive leadership.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Dems are not in the White House, afraid the old its all Hillary's fault just doesn't pass muster for Trumps divisive leadership.



Oh, so you've never heard of the House of Reps?

Nancy?

Chuck?

Et al?


----------



## moXJO

You literally have a mob of  leftist that overtook a few blocks including the police station and the local democrat mayor or democrat state officials have done nothing.  Two people were shot with one dying and police were still refused access. You have rallies being hijacked for political intent. Millions of dollars of damage. Violence in the streets. Even suppression of conservative views.

But yeah dems are not divisive. Crazy stuff if this is the trajectory the left wants to take.


----------



## basilio

_120,000 dead and we don't really want to know how many more people could die - particularly before the election. Three cheers for the man.._

*Donald Trump says he ordered slowdown in coronavirus testing in speech to rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma*
Posted 3hours ago, updated 1hour ago

US President Donald Trump says he ordered authorities to slow down the rate of coronavirus testing because it was adding to the number of COVID-19 infections being recorded.

*Key points:*

Mr Trump said he ordered authorities to: "Slow the testing down please"
The outbreak has so far killed more than 120,000 people across the US
Mr Trump's campaign said six staffers tested positive to COVID-19 hours before the rally
Mr Trump was speaking at a re-election rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, pressing ahead with the gathering despite it being revealed that six campaign workers who helped set it up had tested positive for the virus.

The US is the world's worst-hit country, recording more than 2.3 million COVID-19 cases during the outbreak that has so far killed nearly 120,000 Americans and put 40 million more out of work.

Mr Trump described testing as a "double-edged sword", saying: "When you do testing to that extent you're going to find more people."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...ordered-slowdown-coronavirus-testing/12377556

"You're going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down please.'


----------



## basilio

A million tickets sold for this rally. The 19,000 seat centre is half full. Go figure.

* Donald Trump sows division and promises 'greatness' at Tulsa rally flop *
US president’s much hyped return turned to humiliation when he failed to fill arena in Republican stronghold of Oklahoma

David Smith in Washington
 
 @smithinamerica 
Sun 21 Jun 2020 04.21 BST   Last modified on Sun 21 Jun 2020 05.14 BST


Trump calls coronavirus 'kung flu' and says he slowed testing – video
Donald Trump declared “the silent majority is stronger than ever before” at his comeback rally on Saturday, but thousands of empty seats appeared to tell a different story.

The US president’s much hyped return to the campaign trail turned to humiliation when he failed to fill a 19,000-capacity arena in the Republican stronghold of Oklahoma, raising fresh doubts about his chances of winning re-election.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/20/donald-trump-tulsa-rally-crowd-division-greatness


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> A million tickets sold for this rally. The 19,000 seat centre is half full. Go figure.
> 
> * Donald Trump sows division and promises 'greatness' at Tulsa rally flop *
> US president’s much hyped return turned to humiliation when he failed to fill arena in Republican stronghold of Oklahoma
> 
> David Smith in Washington
> 
> @smithinamerica
> Sun 21 Jun 2020 04.21 BST   Last modified on Sun 21 Jun 2020 05.14 BST
> 
> 
> Trump calls coronavirus 'kung flu' and says he slowed testing – video
> Donald Trump declared “the silent majority is stronger than ever before” at his comeback rally on Saturday, but thousands of empty seats appeared to tell a different story.
> 
> The US president’s much hyped return to the campaign trail turned to humiliation when he failed to fill a 19,000-capacity arena in the Republican stronghold of Oklahoma, raising fresh doubts about his chances of winning re-election.
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/20/donald-trump-tulsa-rally-crowd-division-greatness



Want to know why?





I suppose we should call to impeach over kpop interference


----------



## Knobby22

The protest rally was smaller than expected also.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

Knobby22 said:


> The protest rally was smaller than expected also.




When I am finished; I will release my US presidential electoral map, in around 2 weeks with some analysis. That will give Trump ~4 months to win, if he can under these conditions.


----------



## moXJO

Chronos-Plutus said:


> When I am finished; I will release my US presidential electoral map, in around 2 weeks with some analysis. That will give Trump ~4 months to win, if he can under these conditions.



Mainstream Media, tech giants, Hollywood and government all against him. Huge uphill battle.
You now have better organized disruption of his rallies. And the key thing missing is an evil enemy that galvanised support in 2016 (Hillary).

Biden is a bumbling old fool that isn't the threat Hillary was perceived to be. 

If he takes it out again it will be a huge effort.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

moXJO said:


> Mainstream Media, tech giants, Hollywood and government all against him. Huge uphill battle.
> You now have better organized disruption of his rallies. And the key thing missing is an evil enemy that galvanised support in 2016 (Hillary).
> 
> Biden is a bumbling old fool that isn't the threat Hillary was perceived to be.
> 
> If he takes it out again it will be a huge effort.




Well I essentially picked Trump's path to the White House in 2016, with the exception of New Hampshire and Colorado; from memory. I did better than Sydney University .

We will see how close I am this time. I will show my US electoral map in 2 weeks, and then again with any changes in 2 weeks before the election day.


----------



## Knobby22

Trumps onto something.
Why don't we stop colon cancer by banning colonoscopies.

Also as I said before, something will happen and Trump wont be there in November. Let's hope they don't arrange an accident for him.

I think the most likely scenario is that he will be threatened and will resign for 'medical reasons'.


----------



## basilio

428K 
 12:22 PM - Jun 21, 2020


----------



## bellenuit

https://www.youtube.com/embed/6gEqKKqDw8c


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> https://www.youtube.com/embed/6gEqKKqDw8c




That  was sad. Very surprised Trump came out of the  chopper with his tie off and looking so downbeat.
Not a good look and he obviously knew the Press would be there.


----------



## basilio

The Lincoln Projects take on the Tulsa (non)rally.


----------



## moXJO

Turning it into something it's not....
 The latest tactic of the left (been in effect for a while) is to make it look like Republican voters are deserting trump.

Media has been on board by throwing out headlines in papers to keep crowds away. You also have activists harassing trump voters online and in public. If you are a known trump supporter then: spitting in your food, crowd mugging, destroying your business etc.

Trumps one upside for election is the feverish supporter base. So the first rally was a very good coordinated attack by the different groups. Negative headlines, inflated attendance numbers, followed by gloating at the attendance.
It's first rally back and personally I think trump is a bit flat, possibly doesn't want to fire too early.

It's a tactic that must be working to some degree.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> the feverish supporter base.



Isn't it possible that promoting an all in rally in a State that is seeing accelerating numbers of COVID infections might look a bit dangerous?

The fact that local and National health officials  publicly said such a public enclosed rally represented a significant danger and really shouldn't happen ?

The fact that anyone who came to the rally had to acknowledge the risk the faced with COVID and that they personally were taking that risk?

And then 6 Trump aides announce they are infected ?

The inflated attendance numbers ? Do you mean the million people who allegedly signed expressions of interests? (Yes they were punked. I'm surprised  no one took more interest in the HUGE numbers at that stage)


----------



## basilio

Comparing Trump to George Wallace. 

* Stop comparing Trump to the infamous racist George Wallace. It's unfair to Wallace *
Samuel G Freedman
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/22/trump-george-wallace-samuel-freedman


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Isn't it possible that promoting an all in rally in a State that is seeing accelerating numbers of COVID infections might look a bit dangerous?
> 
> The fact that local and National health officials  publicly said such a public enclosed rally represented a significant danger and really shouldn't happen ?
> 
> The fact that anyone who came to the rally had to acknowledge the risk the faced with COVID and that they personally were taking that risk?
> 
> And then 6 Trump aides announce they are infected ?
> 
> The inflated attendance numbers ? Do you mean the million people who allegedly signed expressions of interests? (Yes they were punked. I'm surprised  no one took more interest in the HUGE numbers at that stage)



If Trump does win the election Bas, I reckon you will have a breakdown, you have a lot of emotion tied up in climate change, the corona virus and Trump.
Make sure you take a bit of you time.
What is the advertisement? "Are you o.k mate".


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> If Trump does win the election Bas, I reckon you will have a breakdown, you have a lot of emotion tied up in climate change, the corona virus and Trump.
> Make sure you take a bit of you time.
> What is the advertisement? "Are you o.k mate".




If Trump wins the election there'll be far more to worry about than this little ant.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> The latest tactic of the left (been in effect for a while) is to make it look like Republican voters are deserting trump.




But they are. That ad that Bas posted just before your post is from The Lincoln Project. These are a group of Republicans opposed to Trump who are now actively campaigning against him, even if it means supporting Biden. And there are other similar groups. In fact some of the most effective ads I have seen this campaign are from The Lincoln Project.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> If Trump wins the election there'll be far more to worry about than this little ant.



The only thing to worry about this term was incessant leftwing whinging. There were a lot of real threats under the previous administrations that were a lot more damaging.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> But they are. That ad that Bas posted just before your post is from The Lincoln Project. These are a group of Republicans opposed to Trump who are now actively campaigning against him, even if it means supporting Biden. And there are other similar groups. In fact some of the most effective ads I have seen this campaign are from The Lincoln Project.



They are a money making scheme. Pulling dollars on trump hate. It's a great way to pull dollars from trump haters. They are apparently "True conservatives". If you check their ads it's mainly to attack trump. They are not widely supported by republicans its all democrats. More on the financial side here:



You have to read the whole thread not just the first post.


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump walking off the chopper  after Tulsa with tie in hand and looking like xhit was always a bad look. The clips  that are setting that walk to music are powerful.

* 'Everybody hurts': Trump's sad 'walk of shame' after Tulsa rally delights critics *
Video of Trump disembarking Marine One after lower than expected turnout as his campaign rally has been captioned, narrated and set to music in memes
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...d-walk-shame-after-tulsa-rally-inspires-memes


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> If you check their ads it's mainly to attack trump. They are not widely supported by republicans its all democrats.




Absolutely Moxjo.  They are pure attack ads on  Donald Trump.
And that is because he is such a venal, lying, dangerous piece of merde with no redeeming features.

The fact that a significant core of  long term Republician supporters feel compelled to speak out against him and form the Lincoln Project to undermine his 2020 campaign is historic.

The Lincoln project doesn't need widespread support from Republicans to kill Trumps campaign.  Switching 3-4% of the current votes to the Democrats would create a landslide.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Isn't it possible that promoting an all in rally in a State that is seeing accelerating numbers of COVID infections might look a bit dangerous?



Trumpers don't believe in coronavirus so they are immune.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Absolutely Moxjo.  They are pure attack ads on  Donald Trump.
> And that is because he is such a venal, lying, dangerous piece of merde with no redeeming features.
> 
> The fact that a significant core of  long term Republician supporters feel compelled to speak out against him and form the Lincoln Project to undermine his 2020 campaign is historic.
> 
> The Lincoln project doesn't need widespread support from Republicans to kill Trumps campaign.  Switching 3-4% of the current votes to the Democrats would create a landslide.



They are viewed as traitors and viewed as unhinged.
I think trump will lose based on other factors. 

Dems are trying hard to sound stupid though. 
"Defund the police", CHAZ and the rioting won't work in their favor. 

July/August will give a better feel. Personally I think Dems are a return to a dirty past. Pelosi, Schiff and others are some of the greatest manipulators on the planet. You could leave them in for 20 years and nothing would change. Except they would have gotten richer.

Realistically all of trump policies are what Australia has pretty much done. In fact we were worse. From slowing illegal  immigration numbers, to border security.

As bad as trump is, he has cleared out the Whitehouse of some entrenched corruption. 
He said very early on "You wouldn't believe what is going on in here".
I'm still of the opinion trump needs another term to really blow it up. He won't  necessarily make it better but he will kick it off.
Bernie would have possibly changed things up. But he was nullified fairly quickly.

Someone needs to tear it all down. No one has done it till now.


----------



## dutchie

I'm calling it.
The US is lost. It will become a communist country.
Europe (west) will follow suit and eventually Australia.


----------



## moXJO

dutchie said:


> I'm calling it.
> The US is lost. It will become a communist country.
> Europe (west) will follow suit and eventually Australia.



Australia's biggest problem is China and a changing Asia Pacific. China is making moves and we will eventually have to decide on which way we start to develop relationships.


----------



## wayneL

dutchie said:


> I'm calling it.
> The US is lost. It will become a communist country.
> Europe (west) will follow suit and eventually Australia.



Agreed.

Whether it is this time or next time or sometime after, the us will be some sort of cross between Soviet Russia and and the fictional idiocracy.

Left have played the long game very well. The only thing I don't understand is to what end?

Life under the radical left in our Western countries will make Nineteeneightyfour seem like a right wing manifesto and quaintly utopian.

I never thought I would ever die on that particular hill but quite prepared to go down fighting.


----------



## Knobby22

I'll bet you guys 10 grand that the USA won't become a communist country if Biden gets in. Honestly feel like you are wearing tin hats.

Come on! All that may happen is some of the citizens may get some healthcare. Bidden hasn't even promised universal healthcare. The only socialism that happens in the USA is towards large companies.

And its not a given the Republicans won't get in. It may not be Trump they will be voting for, they will have 10 times the money to spend and still have the ability to make it difficult for blacks and Hispanics to vote as well as using gerrymandering. I still think its 50 50. Those billionaires aren't wanting to lose their Trump given tax cuts.

I want Trump  to stay in and watch him do more damage. Then I want the USA people to willingly change the constitution so the President isn't effectively a King and the country is run better in the future so a dictator does not happen and we in Australia have a strong democratic friend.


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Whether it is this time or next time or sometime after, the us will be some sort of cross between Soviet Russia and and the fictional idiocracy.
> 
> Left have played the long game very well. The only thing I don't understand is to what end?
> 
> Life under the radical left in our Western countries will make Nineteeneightyfour seem like a right wing manifesto and quaintly utopian.
> 
> I never thought I would ever die on that particular hill but quite prepared to go down fighting.



I think you and Moxjo are right, the continual push to rewarding complacency and indolence, striving for mediocrity and punishing endeavour can only end in a socialist country.
Where everyone is equal, regardless of effort, that leads to  everyone doing nothing as has been proved over and over.
It will take a couple of generations, but the slide is well on its way IMO.


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> I'll bet you guys 10 grand that the USA won't become a communist country if Biden gets in. Honestly feel like you are wearing tin hats.
> 
> Come on! All that may happen is some of the citizens may get some healthcare. Bidden hasn't even promised universal healthcare. The only socialism that happens in the USA is towards large companies.
> 
> And its not a given the Republicans won't get in. It may not be Trump they will be voting for, they will have 10 times the money to spend and still have the ability to make it difficult for blacks and Hispanics to vote as well as using gerrymandering. I still think its 50 50. Those billionaires aren't wanting to lose their Trump given tax cuts.
> 
> I want Trump  to stay in and watch him do more damage. Then I want the USA people to willingly change the constitution so the President isn't effectively a King and the country is run better in the future so a dictator does not happen and we in Australia have a strong democratic friend.




It depends.

If the neo-liberals have control of the party then you will be largely correct.

I'm not so sure that neo-liberals have control of the Party though.

But I am looking at is who runs as vice President. This will be the actual de facto president as in in no way shape or form will b Joe able to maintain control bearing in mind his dementia.

Shheeit, on November 8th Biden will not even be able to remember who won.

This is how I totally f***** up the American system is.

The deep state rules, and till that changes the Western world is screwed.


----------



## dutchie

One of his best ideas yet. Counters all the b#llshit woke demands of the left.

Trump Announces Attendance At Next Rally Will Be Mandatory

WASHINGTON, D.C.—Trump has announced that attendance at his next rally will be mandatory, with everyone in the country being required to attend.


"My rallies aren't optional. That's in the Constitution," he said. "The president has tremendous power. Most tremendous. You could even say total. You could. Perhaps the most total of all time. Ever.”

Fact-checkers and legal experts around the country immediately began scouring the founding document of the nation to see if the commander-in-chief really had such authority to require all 329 million citizens of the nation to congregate in one sports arena.

"No one has ever claimed to have such a power and there's a lot of words in the Constitution. It might be in there. Who knows?" said Justice Neil Gorsuch.


https://babylonbee.com/news


----------



## basilio

*                     "It's America or Trump"*
The Lincoln project makes very pithy ads.


----------



## IFocus

US becoming left wing.......unhinged, there is no left in the US, for starters you need a very strong union movement to mobilise the workers, they don't exist in any numbers the Dems screw them every time when in office. 

Why because the Dems are not left in any sense.

Talk about bat crazy, unhinged devoid of any sense of reality .........


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> US becoming left wing.......unhinged, there is no left in the US, for starters you need a very strong union movement to mobilise the workers, they don't exist in any numbers the Dems screw them every time when in office.
> 
> Why because the Dems are not left in any sense.
> 
> Talk about bat crazy, unhinged devoid of any sense of reality .........



Left authoritarians.


----------



## Knobby22

Trump is stopping all testing supplies in the following states to slow testing:

Texas
Illinois
New Jersey
Colorado
Pennsylvania
Didn't we just get told he wasn't doing this?
Ted Cruz is not happy. Look it up yourselves. Tell me why this is a good thing. Sheep.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> US becoming left wing.......unhinged, there is no left in the US, for starters you need a very strong union movement to mobilise the workers, they don't exist in any numbers the Dems screw them every time when in office.
> 
> Why because the Dems are not left in any sense.
> 
> Talk about bat crazy, unhinged devoid of any sense of reality .........



Say what?

Bernie
AOC
Tulsi
et al

But you are so right, the left have screwed their working class constituency, same here, UK, Canada etc


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Say what?
> 
> Bernie
> AOC
> Tulsi
> et al
> 
> But you are so right, the left have screwed their working class constituency, same here, UK, Canada etc




Those names hold no power or influence none nada zip, both sides in the US are run by vested and corporate interests starting from the very  beginning you need funds to get elected then you are in the pocket of who stumps you up but you all ready know this and ignore..

The Harvard paper that looked at acts passed were north of 80% vested interests nothing to do with people.

The US hourly rate sums up the Democrats and morally bankrupt Republicans no left politics there?

In Australia its been clearly the LNP that have bent the working class over removal of working conditions, penalty rates just recent examples Labor is blocking further attacks on nurses and fireman unions etc BTW your comments lack substance and examples.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Those names hold no power or influence none nada zip, both sides in the US are run by vested and corporate interests starting from the very  beginning you need funds to get elected then you are in the pocket of who stumps you up but you all ready know this and ignore..
> 
> The Harvard paper that looked at acts passed were north of 80% vested interests nothing to do with people.
> 
> The US hourly rate sums up the Democrats and morally bankrupt Republicans no left politics there?
> 
> In Australia its been clearly the LNP that have bent the working class over removal of working conditions, penalty rates just recent examples Labor is blocking further attacks on nurses and fireman unions etc BTW your comments lack substance and examples.



I don't think the hourly rate was much in Soviet Russia, Komrade... And I don't see the Venezuelan workers supping Dom Perignon and dining on lobster an caviar .

Come on man, socialism is not for the workers.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

wayneL said:


> I don't think the hourly rate was much in Soviet Russia, Komrade... And I don't see the Venezuelan workers supping Dom Perignon and dining on lobster an caviar .
> 
> Come on man, socialism is not for the workers.




Alexandria (AOC) is not a bad sort, it is a shame that she is a bit of a commie.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Trump is stopping all testing supplies in the following states to slow testing:
> 
> Texas
> Illinois
> New Jersey
> Colorado
> Pennsylvania
> Didn't we just get told he wasn't doing this?
> Ted Cruz is not happy. Look it up yourselves. Tell me why this is a good thing. Sheep.



He is stopping federal funding from what I read. What's stopping the state's paying?


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Tell me why this is a good thing. Sheep.



The other thing would be infection rates, attendance rates and all those kinds of things. Australia would be well down on testing from what it was. Truth is I don't really care. And if I did go to the effort, do you really care?


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> The other thing would be infection rates, attendance rates and all those kinds of things. Australia would be well down on testing from what it was. Truth is I don't really care. And if I did go to the effort, do you really care?



You still defended him. No I don't really care. 

But obviously I should as if Biden gets in China wins and the USA goes socialist according to this thread.

The next news story coming is that the money to help small business has been siphoned off. Trump is trying to block an investigation by the Senate.

Don't worry the Attorney General is looking into it. Oh, he got sacked, must be part of deep whatever conspiracy.

Honestly I find it amusing, it's black humour which I love.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> You still defended him. No I don't really care.
> 
> But obviously I should as if Biden gets in China wins and the USA goes socialist according to this thread.
> 
> The next news story coming is that the money to help small business has been siphoned off. Trump is trying to block an investigation by the Senate.
> 
> Don't worry the Attorney General is looking into it. Oh, he got sacked, must be part of deep whatever conspiracy.
> 
> Honestly I find it amusing, it's black humour which I love.



Calling people sheep because they don't follow the media's narrative usually means you are dipping into emotional rah rah.
There are reasons for a lot of decisions, but to tell you the truth I don't really care.

Biden is too weak. And the radicals seems to be grabbing the direction of the party.
You only have to look at democrat run state's to see they are turning into shtholes. It's already happening. So it's not a far stretch (not that I think they would turn the country socialist). More likely let it devolve some more.

As far as I'm concerned Trump is doing exactly what I was hoping for. Pull manufacturing away from China and holding the blowtorch to their feet. And also weakening the US/Australia bond.


----------



## bellenuit

*Former Trump 2016 Republican rival Fiorina to back Biden*

*https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...can-rival-fiorina-to-back-biden-idUSKBN23W33K*


----------



## dutchie

Even the US National Anthem is not safe.


----------



## bellenuit

Ad from another Republican group opposed to Trump.


----------



## basilio

*25 reasons to want to see Trump Out of Office.*
This is an excellent summary of the corruption and destruction Trump has wrecked on the US .
The man has no limits.

* Donald Trump’s re-election playbook: 25 ways he'll lie, cheat and abuse his power *
Robert Reich


Donald Trump will do anything to be re-elected. His opponents are limited because they believe in democracy. Trump has no limits because he doesn’t.

Here’s Trump’s re-election playbook, in 25 simple steps:

*1) Declare yourself above the law.*

*2) Use racist fearmongering. *Demand “law and order” and describe protesters as “thugs”, “lowlife” and “rioters and looters”. Describe Covid-19 as “kung-flu”. Retweet posts from white supremacists. In your campaign ads, use a symbol associated with Nazis.

*3)  Appoint an attorney general more loyal to you than to America,* *and politicize the Department of Justice* so it’s lenient on your loyalists and comes down hard on your enemies. Have it lighten the sentence of a crony convicted of lying under oath. Order investigations of industries you dislike.

*4)  Fire US attorneys *who are investigating you.

*5)  Fire independent inspectors general *who are looking into what you’ve done. Crush any whistleblowers you find.

*6)  Demean and ignore the intelligence community.* Appoint a director of national intelligence more loyal to you than to America. Demand that the head of the FBI pledge loyalty to you.

*7)  Pack the federal courts *with judges and justices more loyal to you than to the constitution.

*8)  Politicize the Department of Defense* so generals will back whatever you order. Refer to them as “my generals”. Have them help clear out protesters. Order the military to surveil protesters. Tell governors you’ll bring in the military to stop protesters.

*9)  Purge your party* of anyone disloyal to you and turn it into a mindless, brainless, spineless cult.

*10)  Get rid of accumulated experience and expertise in government. *Demean career public servants. Hollow out the state department, the Departments of Justice, Health and Human Services, and public health.

*11)  Reward donors and cronies *with bailouts, tax breaks, subsidies, government contracts, regulatory rollbacks and plum jobs. Put their lobbyists in charge of your agencies. Distribute $500bn in pandemic assistance to corporations in secret, without any oversight.

*12)  Coddle dictators*. Don’t criticize their human rights abuses. Refuse to work with the leaders of other democracies. Withdraw from international treaties.

*13)  Create scapegoats. *Demonize migrants and lock up asylum seekers at the border, even if they’re children. Put a white nationalist in charge of immigration policy. Blame Muslims, Mexicans and Chinese.

*14)  Denigrate and ridicule all critics*. Describe opponents as “human scum”. Attack the mainstream media as purveyors of “fake news” and “enemies of the people”.

*15) * *Conjure up conspiracies * supposedly led by your predecessor and your opponent in the last election. Without any evidence, accuse your predecessor of “treason”. Fabricate a “deep state” out to get you.

*16) * *Downplay real threats* *to the nation*, such as a rapidly spreading pandemic. Lie about your utter failure to contain it. Muzzle public health experts. Urge people to go back to work even as the pandemic worsens in parts of the country.

*17)  Encourage armed supporters to “liberate” states* from elected officials who disagree with you.

*18)  Bribe other nations* to investigate your electoral opponent and flood social media with lies about him.

*19)  Use rightwing propaganda machines* like Fox News and conspiracy-theory-peddling One America News to inundate the country with your lies. Ensure that the morally bankrupt chief executive of Facebook allows you to spread your lies on the biggest media machine in the world.

*20)  Suppress the votes of people likely to vote against you*. Intimidate voters of color. Encourage Republican governors to purge voter rolls, demand voter ID and close polling places.

*21)  Seek to prevent mail-in ballots* during the pandemic. Claim they will cause voter fraud, without evidence. Threaten to close the US postal service.

*22)  Get Vladimir Putin to hack into US election machines*, as he did in 2016 but can now do with more experience and deftness. Promise him that in return you’ll further destabilize America as well as Nato. Let him even place a bounty on killing US troops in Afghanistan.

*23)  If it still looks like you’ll be voted out, try to postpone the election*.

*24)  If you’re voted out of office notwithstanding all this, refuse to leave. *Contest the election, claim massive fraud, say it’s a conspiracy, get your cult of a political party to support your lies, get your propaganda machine to repeat them, get your justice department to back you, get your judges and justices to affirm you, get your generals to suppress any subsequent rebellion.

*25)  Declare victory.*

Memo to America: beware Trump’s playbook. Spread the truth. Stay vigilant. Fight for our democracy.


Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor, is professor of public policy at the University of California at Berkeley and the author of Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few and The Common Good. His new book, The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It, is out now. He is a columnist for Guardian US
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-election-playbook-25-lies-cheats-and-steals


----------



## Knobby22

He hasn't done 24 or 25 yet.


----------



## wayneL

Meanwhile


----------



## IFocus

House is burning down..........oh look over there


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> He hasn't done 24 or 25 yet.




Just waiting for the election Knobby.  As sure the sun sets and the moon rises a losing Donald Trump will swing 24 and 25 into action.


----------



## basilio

*John Boltons book
*
Finally out in public. Open sourced book from one of the most hawkish long term Republican politician in the US.
John Boltons talks of what he saw and experienced as  National Security Advisor in Trump administration.

So what did John see that  caused him to make such and open break with a Republican administration and say Trump was *'Unfit for office*" and "*didn't have the competence to be President of the United States"?*

Check out this podcast to understand the guts of John Boltons book and the evidence behind his assertions.
* How damaging is John Bolton's scathing account of Donald Trump's presidency? *
00:00:00
00:26:23

The publication of former US national security adviser John Bolton’s White House memoir has caused a sensation. Jonathan Freedland assesses the lurid claims of cosying up to authoritarian leaders as well as descriptions of the ‘stunning’ ignorance of Donald Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-scathing-account-of-donald-trumps-presidency


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> *John Boltons book
> *
> Finally out in public. Open sourced book from one of the most hawkish long term Republican politician in the US.
> John Boltons talks of what he saw and experienced as  National Security Advisor in Trump administration.
> 
> So what did John see that  caused him to make such and open break with a Republican administration and say Trump was *'Unfit for office*" and "*didn't have the competence to be President of the United States"?*
> 
> Check out this podcast to understand the guts of John Boltons book and the evidence behind his assertions.
> * How damaging is John Bolton's scathing account of Donald Trump's presidency? *
> 00:00:00
> 00:26:23
> 
> The publication of former US national security adviser John Bolton’s White House memoir has caused a sensation. Jonathan Freedland assesses the lurid claims of cosying up to authoritarian leaders as well as descriptions of the ‘stunning’ ignorance of Donald Trump
> https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-scathing-account-of-donald-trumps-presidency




So you are pro slavery I see.


----------



## Knobby22

Got this from a pro GOP site. Someone has a pretty good sarcasm quotient. There are some angry GOP supporters and I don't blame them.

*Trump Apologist's Creed :*

*"Trump didn't say that. And if he did, he didn't mean that. And if he did, you didn't understand what he meant. And if you did, it's not a big deal. And if it is, others have still said and done worse."
*
Good for the latest tweet where the guy says White Power loudly  8 seconds in. GOP Senator Tim Scott was pretty angry with Trump and demanded he remove it, which he did. What is Trump thinking? He seems to be self sabotaging.


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> *Trump Apologist's Creed :*
> 
> *"Trump didn't say that. And if he did, he didn't mean that. And if he did, you didn't understand what he meant. And if you did, it's not a big deal. And if it is, others have still said and done worse."
> *



*Also he could have had his fingers crossed.*


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> What is Trump thinking? He seems to be self sabotaging.




I honestly think he is done.
Who would want another 4 years of the bullsht he's been put through. He was bugged before he even started and it was downhill ever since.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> I honestly think he is done.
> Who would want another 4 years of the bullsht he's been put through. He was bugged before he even started and it was downhill ever since.




I certainly think he would, as the alternative may very well be prison for him and some of his family members once he loses the protection of the White House and his extensive corruption is exposed.


----------



## sptrawler

I hear that people who break the lockdown in Victoria, can be put in jail.

Oh sorry I thought it would fit better in this thread, if it was Trump, it would be in highlighted text and three posts.


----------



## Knobby22

I'm living in one of those zones.
Doesn't seem like that. 
I can start a thread if you like, it would be pretty boring. 

Btw, Trump has been quite for a few days, really quiet....since that tweet that pissed off the Republican Party.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> I'm living in one of those zones.
> Doesn't seem like that.
> .



I hope it all goes well for you knobby, best of luck and stay well mate.


----------



## wayneL

Gladys should start building a wall along the Murray IMO </banter>


----------



## spooly74

2020 is only warming up


----------



## basilio

There is an interesting story in The Guardian on challenge to Trump reaching the community through Facebook, Twitter and Redit.  All of these platforms are taking action to undermine what they regard as hate speech from  Trump.

There was a suggestion in the story that many advisors and supporters are moving to Parler the current no censorship platform.  The trouble is  the lack of people on Parler.

But another observation was also made about no censorship platforms.

_Gautam Hans, a professor at Vanderbilt Law School, added that social media companies touting a “no censorship” policy had previously become overrun with violent and hateful rhetoric, which could quickly force Parler to develop a content moderation policy. “And then basically you’re back where you were four months ago on Twitter,” Hans said. “You’re not going to be able to avoid these problems. They’re unavoidable.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/05/trump-twitter-social-media-reddit-parler
_


----------



## dutchie

Dems Change Mind On Border Wall After Realizing It Will Keep People From Leaving When We Switch To Socialism

U.S.—The nation's Democratic leaders announced Tuesday they are reversing course on Trump's proposed border wall, since "it will keep people in once we switch to socialism."


"We thought the border wall was a bad, racist idea," said Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. "But then this light bulb turned on over my head. It was actually just a light bulb though, not an actual idea, which was disappointing. But that got me thinking about trying to have an idea. And I got an idea: when we switch to socialism, everyone's gonna try to run away. But what if there's a big, solid object along the border? Then they can't run away. I mean, they could try to climb, but we could shoot them."


https://babylonbee.com/news


----------



## basilio

*Trump escapes  White House staff and leaps to Freedom on Chopper !!!*

*Trump Leads Aides On Wild Chase Through White House As They Attempt To Confiscate His Smartphone*

WASHINGTON, D.C.—According to sources within the Trump White House, the President and Commander in Chief led a squad of White House aides on a wild chase through the West Wing early Monday morning, after the team of assistants attempted to confiscate Trump’s smartphone to prevent him from posting anything on social media.

...The chase reportedly culminated in a rooftop confrontation, with the President leaping from the White House building to his waiting Marine One helicopter in a stunning display of agility.
https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-leads-aides-wild-chase-white-house-attempt-confiscate-smartphone


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> *Trump escapes  White House staff and leaps to Freedom on Chopper !!!*
> 
> *Trump Leads Aides On Wild Chase Through White House As They Attempt To Confiscate His Smartphone*
> 
> WASHINGTON, D.C.—According to sources within the Trump White House, the President and Commander in Chief led a squad of White House aides on a wild chase through the West Wing early Monday morning, after the team of assistants attempted to confiscate Trump’s smartphone to prevent him from posting anything on social media.
> 
> ...The chase reportedly culminated in a rooftop confrontation, with the President leaping from the White House building to his waiting Marine One helicopter in a stunning display of agility.
> https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-leads-aides-wild-chase-white-house-attempt-confiscate-smartphone




Now you have finally got it basilio!  Welcome to the right (or non leftist, if you prefer)
Now that you are on board never go back to that slave loving leftist (Marxist)  rag (The Guardian).


----------



## moXJO

I wonder if kanye will split enough voters off the democrats for Trump to have a better chance?


----------



## basilio

Johns Hopkins University  has developed a set of data on the spread of COVID 19 for each US State.  When you check it out one realises how effective Australia has been to date in minimising the impact here. Absolute peanuts really.

However the dramatic increases in the last month also highlights the dangers to the US economy because it is certainly way out of control.  It also opens the question of how long  Trump can convince his supporters COVID will just go away.

*Texas overview*







*Florida Overview*











https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...oronavirus-map-us-latest-cases-state-by-state


----------



## basilio

Under Trumps criminal administration rule people convicted by the courts of serious crimes  who Trump considers a friend/political ally can anticipate a pardon or a commutation of their sentence.

That should make a lot of people breathe much easier ...

*Donald Trump commutes prison sentence of long-time adviser Roger Stone*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...ng-time-adviser-roger-stone-sentence/12445732


----------



## basilio

*‘Historic corruption’: Mitt Romney blasts Trump after Roger Stone’s commutation*


Mitt Romney
@MittRomney
Unprecedented, historic corruption: an American president commutes the sentence of a person convicted by a jury of lying to shield that very president.
11:06 PM · Jul 11, 2020

https://globalnews.ca/news/7165834/roger-stone-trump-mitt-romney/


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

So who will refinance Trumps loans and how are the businesses being affected by COVID 19 ?

Politics
*Trump Has a Half Billion in Loans Coming Due. They May Be His Biggest Conflict of Interest Yet.*
*“It’s highly disconcerting.”*
*https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/donald-trump-loans-deutsche-bank/*


----------



## dutchie

CNN Report: Millions Of American Voters May Have Colluded To Elect Trump

U.S.—A new, exclusive CNN investigative report revealed Thursday that millions of American voters may have potentially colluded with the Trump campaign to elect Donald Trump as President of the United States.

While Russia has been accused of interfering in the election, the breaking report indicates that the collusion may have extended to a significant portion of the U.S. population—“as many as 60 million citizens, and possibly even more.”

“The conspiracy goes much deeper than anyone expected,” Jake Tapper said on his news segment _The Politics Lead_. “We’re talking tens of millions of people involved in this secret plot to make sure Hillary didn’t make it into the White House and to prop up Donald Trump as the winner.”

The CNN report does not accuse anyone of hacking or rigging the vote, but rather suggests that those colluding with the real estate mogul in the far-reaching scheme may have simply walked into voting booths and cast their vote for Donald Trump, giving him the electoral college victory.

“It’s far more sinister than we thought,” a visibly disturbed Tapper said.

https://babylonbee.com/news


----------



## basilio

*Priceless.*

Republicans supporters who voted for Trump in 2016 are now telling their story of anger at how badly the Trump Presidency become.
All from from the heartland that voted him into office.

* The Trump supporters who changed their minds: 'I'd rather vote for a tuna fish sandwich' *
Frustrated, some Republicans have become anti-Trumpers: ‘This guy couldn’t lead his way out of a wet frickin’ paper bag’
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/14/trump-republican-voters-who-changed-their-mind


----------



## basilio

Donate 

 
*“I’d vote for a tuna fish sandwich before I’d vote for Donald Trump again.” *

These are Republicans, former Republicans, conservatives, and former Trump voters who can’t support Trump for president this fall.
 Watch the Stories 
https://rvat.org/


----------



## wayneL

Every president is disappointing, baz.

Remember Obama? The greatest diversion between rhetoric and action of any president history, his only legacy the promotion of racial division and toxic identity politics.

However this is a watershed moment for the United States. 

If not Trump, then who?

Collect wing euphoria of a Biden election would very soon turn in to a proverbial "trail of tears" as the middle class is frog-marched into oblivion and poverty, cementing neoliberal corporatism and perhaps ensuring the second civil war.

History is beginning to rhyme once again with the inevitable bloodbath of innocents as a result.

All for what?

An ideology?

As the extreme left is often observed eating its own, be careful what you wish for, Komrade.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Every president is disappointing, baz.
> 
> Remember Obama? The greatest diversion between rhetoric and action of any president history, his only legacy the promotion of racial division and toxic identity politics.
> 
> However this is a watershed moment for the United States.
> 
> If not Trump, then who?
> 
> Collect wing euphoria of a Biden election would very soon turn in to a proverbial "trail of tears" as the middle class is frog-marched into oblivion and poverty, cementing neoliberal corporatism and perhaps ensuring the second civil war.
> 
> History is beginning to rhyme once again with the inevitable bloodbath of innocents as a result.
> 
> All for what?
> 
> An ideology?
> 
> As the extreme left is often observed eating its own, be careful what you wish for, Komrade.




Fascinating... 

You don't want to highlight the brillliant way Trump is handling the COVID 19  crisis. You've skipped over the decisions to pull the US out of the Paris CC agreements and WHO. Not interested in  discussing how the US is now viewed by once firm allies who only see a total  self interested  dummy trashing US influence around the world.

You don't want to talk about an administration that has used the office to enrich  his  sons daughters, friends anyone in the Dons circle of influence.

Not interested in a creature who has ridden roughshod over the laws to arbitrarily pardon the crooks who have  protected his crooked rule.

Nah.  No interest here at all.

Rather you want to plead that the alternative  is someone/something far worse  facing the US than Donald Trump in all his exposed bastardry. 

Perhaps you should listen to some of the people who voted Republicans all their lives and voted for Trump last time - and will not do it again while this travesty is looking for re election.


----------



## wayneL

That may or may not be so, bas. As far as I am concerned is largely a constructed narrative but leaving that aside for now, you still end up with Biden and the current iteration of the democrats. That will be a disaster not only for America but for the Western world. we will have to teach our kids how to say would you like fries with that sir, in mandarin.

Americans of course will make that choice, not us.


----------



## IFocus

Biden is mostly harmless, a know identity in US politics for ever.

Ex VP no big deal mostly business as usual with a bone thrown to keep the peasants quite.

What should terrify the conservatives is that the Senate is looking like Dems.

The US might actually see real reform still pity about the unfunded trillions given to the wealthy in tax relief.


----------



## Knobby22

Amazing. Centre for Disease control to be bypassed so the figures can be modified.

*Trump Administration Strips C.D.C. of Control of Coronavirus Data*
Hospitals have been ordered to bypass the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and send all patient information to a central database in Washington, raising questions about transparency.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html

Imagine if it was Hilary that did this.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Amazing. Centre for Disease control to be bypassed so the figures can be modified.
> 
> *Trump Administration Strips C.D.C. of Control of Coronavirus Data*
> Hospitals have been ordered to bypass the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and send all patient information to a central database in Washington, raising questions about transparency.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html
> 
> Imagine if it was Hilary that did this.




Donald is OK because Hilary would have been worse


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Donald is OK because Hilary would have been worse



Now you're starting to catch on.


----------



## SirRumpole

IFocus said:


> Biden is mostly harmless, a know identity in US politics for ever.




A Douglas Adams fan are you ?


----------



## SirRumpole

Trump is dangerous for America and should resign, says his niece.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/15/donald-trump-niece-president-should-resign


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> Trump is dangerous for America and should resign, says his niece.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/15/donald-trump-niece-president-should-resign



Interesting comment.
Mary Trump also insisted that her assertion that Donald Trump paid someone to take his high school exams so he could qualify for the prestigious Wharton Business School, at the University of Pennsylvania, is true.


----------



## dutchie

wayneL said:


> Now you're starting to catch on.



and Donald is better because Biden (or who ever is injected into his position, if he does win) will be worse.


----------



## IFocus

SirRumpole said:


> A Douglas Adams fan are you ?




Yes I am actually and the answer is 42 

(There is fascinating reasoning around the number 42 BTW)


----------



## wayneL

Innerestin' pre 2016 vid


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> Innerestin' pre 2016 vid



Yes, fascinating.


----------



## basilio




----------



## basilio

*COVID 19*.
140,000 dead. An exponential rise in infections across the country.  And Donald wants to stop Federal support for testing and tracing 

* Trump bids to stop billions in track-and-trace funds as virus cases spike *

White House opposes funding proposed by Senate Republicans
More than 140,000 Americans have died from coronavirus
Donald Trump is seeking to block billions of dollars in funding for coronavirus testing and contact tracing efforts even as cases rise across the US, where around 70,000 people are testing positive each day.

White House opposition to spending proposed by Senate Republicans has sparked frustrations in his own party, according to the Washington Post, the New York Times and other media outlets.

Senate Republicans are preparing to unveil a new coronavirus relief bill when Congress returns from a two-week recess. The package, which must address the public health threat of Covid-19 and the resulting economic crisis, could be the last relief bill Congress passes before the November elections.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/19/coronavirus-trump-track-and-trace-white-house


----------



## basilio

The interview Trump did with Chris Wallace from Fox has some sobering moments.
The fact that Trump was proud he passed such a "difficult" cognitive test which  in fact is used to diagnose  dementia or cognitive  incapacity is beyond disturbing.

Check it out


----------



## Knobby22

Interesting graph that has been put together using multiple polling data showing timelines of Trump approval/disapproval ratings.


----------



## sptrawler

4 months to go, thankfully.
Then we can get back to bashing ScoMo.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Interesting graph that has been put together using multiple polling data showing timelines of Trump approval/disapproval ratings.




Hilary never had a lead that Biden has now, Biden just has to keep low and let Trump and those Republican governors do all the damage, I am starting to think Trump is gone.

Still a long way still to go to November.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> 4 months to go, thankfully.
> Then we can get back to bashing ScoMo.




Morrison is looking good. (The graph is a bit old) Trump is now 38.5, Morrison is still right up there with a deserved 59. Bolsonoro is at 30% now!


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Morrison is looking good. (The graph is a bit old) Trump is now 38.5, Morrison is still right up there with a deserved 59. Bolsonoro is at 30% now!



That's an interesting graph Knobby.


----------



## Knobby22

Should say the graph is change in approval ratings so actual approval ratings are obviously different. (which are the figures I gave).


----------



## dutchie

Democrat Cities heading toward Civil War II
Democrats - Defund the police.


----------



## basilio

*HOW Donald Trump ruined the US*


----------



## dutchie

'Trump Might Not Accept The Results Of The 2020 Election,' Says Movement That Still Hasn't Accepted Results Of 2016 Election

U.S.—Leftists are warning that President Donald Trump might not accept the results of the 2020 election.


These same lefitsts have spent the last four years declaring that Trump is not their president, that Hillary Clinton actually won because she won the popular vote, and that Trump only won because of Russian interference.

"It would absolutely destroy our democracy if Trump were to decide he won't accept the results of the election," said one woman in Seattle wearing a "Hillary Is My President" T-shirt. "We can't continue to exist as a society if people don't accept the basic rules governing a peaceful transfer of power."

"Also, Trump stole the election and is not my president." *She then faced Washington for her evening screaming at the sky, a ritual she performs five times a day.*
https://babylonbee.com/

A lot of people in the US and here are still screaming.


----------



## rederob

dutchie said:


> 'Trump Might Not Accept The Results Of The 2020 Election,' Says Movement That Still Hasn't Accepted Results Of 2016 Election
> 
> U.S.—Leftists are warning that President Donald Trump might not accept the results of the 2020 election.
> 
> 
> These same lefitsts have spent the last four years declaring that Trump is not their president, that Hillary Clinton actually won because she won the popular vote, and that Trump only won because of Russian interference.
> 
> "It would absolutely destroy our democracy if Trump were to decide he won't accept the results of the election," said one woman in Seattle wearing a "Hillary Is My President" T-shirt. "We can't continue to exist as a society if people don't accept the basic rules governing a peaceful transfer of power."
> 
> "Also, Trump stole the election and is not my president." *She then faced Washington for her evening screaming at the sky, a ritual she performs five times a day.*
> https://babylonbee.com/
> 
> A lot of people in the US and here are still screaming.



Rather than rely on opinion and labels, why not cut to what Trump actually said.
If the US is a democracy, why won't the President state that he will accept the election result?


----------



## bellenuit

dutchie said:


> 'Trump Might Not Accept The Results Of The 2020 Election,' Says Movement That Still Hasn't Accepted Results Of 2016 Election
> 
> U.S.—Leftists are warning that President Donald Trump might not accept the results of the 2020 election.
> 
> 
> These same lefitsts have spent the last four years declaring that Trump is not their president, that Hillary Clinton actually won because she won the popular vote, and that Trump only won because of Russian interference.
> 
> "It would absolutely destroy our democracy if Trump were to decide he won't accept the results of the election," said one woman in Seattle wearing a "Hillary Is My President" T-shirt. "We can't continue to exist as a society if people don't accept the basic rules governing a peaceful transfer of power."
> 
> "Also, Trump stole the election and is not my president." *She then faced Washington for her evening screaming at the sky, a ritual she performs five times a day.*
> https://babylonbee.com/
> 
> A lot of people in the US and here are still screaming.




I don't think him not accepting the result is the worry. Yes, many claimed that Trump stole the election and there may be justifiable grounds to call it illegitimate. But no attempt was made by Hillary (or serious attempts by any others as far as I know) to overthrow the result. However, there is real concern that if Trump loses he will refuse to leave and could (because he remains as president for the few months after) use his power to overrule the result, aided by the corrupt AG and GOP. Basically Trump could attempt a coup of sorts and with the constitution already torn to shreds, there is probably little that could be done about it.


----------



## rederob

bellenuit said:


> I don't think him not accepting the result is the worry. Yes, many claimed that Trump stole the election and there may be justifiable grounds to call it illegitimate. But no attempt was made by Hillary (or serious attempts by any others as far as I know) to overthrow the result. However, there is real concern that if Trump loses he will refuse to leave and could (because he remains as president for the few months after) use his power to overrule the result, aided by the corrupt AG and GOP. Basically Trump could attempt a coup of sorts and with the constitution already torn to shreds, there is probably little that could be done about it.



Trump has many options available should he see a likelihood of losing.
He's also Commander in Chief, so could fortify Washington to preclude ousting while gaming the system.


----------



## SirRumpole

rederob said:


> Trump has many options available should he see a likelihood of losing.
> He's also Commander in Chief, so could fortify Washington to preclude ousting while gaming the system.




If he tried those things there would be Civil War 2.0.


----------



## dutchie

You blokes should go and work for Babylonbee.


----------



## rederob

SirRumpole said:


> If he tried those things there would be Civil War 2.0.



There are many overseas precedents for rulers to override election results and succeed.
An option I did not include above was Trump's ability to declare a state of emergency prior to elections being held.  The thing is, providing Trump retains GOP support, all these options are "legal."


----------



## bellenuit

SirRumpole said:


> If he tried those things there would be Civil War 2.0.




That wouldn't bother him in the least if it meant he could cling to power. His MO has always been to divide not unite.


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> His MO has always been to divide not unite.



Unlike Hillary, The Democrats, Antifa, BLM Inc, MSM and Soros.


----------



## bellenuit

dutchie said:


> Unlike Hillary, The Democrats, Antifa, BLM Inc, MSM and Soros.




Yes, correct.


----------



## wayneL

Ah, I see it's comedy hour.


----------



## IFocus

I thought this was a good summary on how it all got so messy.



Even if Trump loses in November and is ushered off the national stage, his gestures in the direction of fascist politics – made-for-TV or not – will not be easy to erase, because Trump’s politics are merely a current expression of a 30-year Republican arc, said Stanley.

“There has been a long buildup before Trump,” Stanley said. “A core to authoritarianism – whether fascism or communism – is the one-party state. And Republicans for years before Trump, all the way back to [former House speaker] Newt Gingrich, who I blame all of this on, have been acting like their political opponents are traitors and not legitimate opponents.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/25/trump-federal-agents-portland-ploy-election


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> Even if Trump loses in November and is ushered off the national stage, his gestures in the direction of fascist politics – made-for-TV or not – will not be easy to erase, because Trump’s politics are merely a current expression of a 30-year Republican arc, said Stanley.




*American Catastrophe Through German Eyes*
*By *Roger Cohen
*Opinion Columnist NY Times*

Trump says he wants to protect law-abiding citizens. In 1933, Hitler issued his ‘Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State.’

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/opinion/trump-germany.html?searchResultPosition=1

_PARIS — No people has found the American lurch toward authoritarianism under President Trump more alarming than the Germans. For postwar Germany, the United States was savior, protector and liberal democratic model. Now, Germans, in shock, speak of the “American catastrophe.”

A recent cover of the weekly magazine Der Spiegel portrays Trump in the Oval Office holding a lighted match, with a country ablaze visible through his window. The headline: “Der Feuerteufel,” or, literally, “the Fire Devil.”

Germans have a particular relationship to fire. The Reichstag fire of 1933 enabled Hitler and the Nazis to scrap the fragile Weimar democracy that had brought them to power. Hitler’s murderous fantasies could now become reality. War, Auschwitz and the German catastrophe followed.

where protesters have been demanding racial justice and police accountability, it’s not a huge leap to the use of paramilitaries (like the German Freikorps in the 1920s) to buttress a “Law and Order” campaign. The Freikorps battled communists. Today, Trump claims to battle “anarchists,” “terrorists” and violent leftists. It’s the leitmotif of his quest for a second term.

confirmed this week that it has deployed officers from three paramilitary-style units to join the federal crackdown in Portland. The Trump administration, facing lawsuits, has cited post-9/11 legislation establishing the department to justify its action. Chicago is now among several cities being targeted as Trump seeks to foment confrontation.

As Tom Ridge, a Republican who was the first head of the Department of Homeland Security, noted in an interview with the Sirius XM host Michael Smerconish, the department was “not established to be the president’s personal militia.”

In wartime, the Third Geneva Convention, to which the United States is a party, requires even irregular forces to wear “a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance.” This is critical not only to protecting civilians but also to ensuring accountability for misconduct.

When paramilitary-style units have no identifying insignia, there is no transparency, no accountability — and that means impunity. Democracy dies. Think of all this as setting the scene for Trump’s own “state of emergency” if he does not like the November election result. Social media is combustible enough for a physical fire to be unnecessary.

The president says he wants to protect law-abiding citizens. In 1933, after the Reichstag burned, Hitler issued the “Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State” as his means to seize power.

German horror at Trump has many components. He’s the fear-mongering showman wielding nationalism, racism and violence as if the 20th century held no lessons. He’s the would-be destroyer of the multilateral institutions that brought European peace and made it possible for Germans to raise their bowed heads again. He is a fascist in the making.

Ian Beacock argued recently in The New Republic, Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, got it right on the virus. Not for her the imagery of war — all that talk of the silent, invisible enemy to be vanquished. No, for her the challenge of the virus has been a lesson in the power of democracy.

“We are not condemned to accept the spread of this virus as an inevitable fact of life,” she said. “We thrive not because we are forced to do something, but because we share knowledge and encourage active participation.” She went on to say that success largely depends “on each and every one of us.”

It worked. Merkel was addressing all democratic citizens, Americans included. No wonder Trump cannot stand her, a woman trained as a scientist whose life lesson has been the sacred value of freedom._


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Ian Beacock argued recently in The New Republic,* Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, got it right on the virus. Not for her the imagery of war — all that talk of the silent, invisible enemy to be vanquished. No, for her the challenge of the virus has been a lesson in the power of democracy.
> 
> “We are not condemned to accept the spread of this virus as an inevitable fact of life,” she said. “We thrive not because we are forced to do something, but because we share knowledge and encourage active participation.” She went on to say that success largely depends “on each and every one of us.”
> 
> It worked. Merkel was addressing all democratic citizens, Americans included. No wonder Trump cannot stand her, a woman trained as a scientist whose life lesson has been the sacred value of freedom.*




Had to re quote that analysis. So appropriate and effective.

The historical reference to how Hitler used legislation to justify his political takeover of Germany is well worth registering.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Had to re quote that analysis. So appropriate and effective.
> 
> The historical reference to how Hitler used legislation to justify his political takeover of Germany is well worth registering.




Merkel has been the most impressive Western world leader for a long time imo.

She's kept out of the limelight but has quietly got on with the job. She would be a good choice for Sec Gen of the U.N.


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> Merkel has been the most impressive Western world leader for a long time imo.
> 
> She's kept out of the limelight but has quietly got on with the job. She would be a good choice for Sec Gen of the U.N.




Good choice there SirRumpole, but I think Xi Jinping would do a better job. It's definitely a toss up.


----------



## orr

basilio said:


> Had to re quote that analysis. So appropriate and effective.
> 
> The historical reference to how Hitler used legislation to justify his political takeover of Germany is well worth registering.




All Trump needs now is a 'Mad Dutchman' to burn down the Riech-Stag, oops I mean Capital hill. Should we lend him Andrea's Bolt?

More seriously I ask myself are the Colonel's of the US military asking slyly those under their command to read the US constitution?


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> Merkel has been the most impressive Western world leader for a long time imo.
> 
> She's kept out of the limelight but has quietly got on with the job. She would be a good choice for Sec Gen of the U.N.



Unfortunately she has health problems. So no, she won't be involved in politics once her term ends.

Regarding Trump, he is no dictator like Putin, Mugabe or Julius Ceaser. 

He is not after power, he just likes being in the limelight. He really is an unusual person who is doing his best but is unfortunately completely out of his depth.


----------



## Knobby22

"Divide and rule, a sound motto.
Unite and lead, a better one" 
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


----------



## SirRumpole

Some of Trump's supporters.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-28/us-election-donald-trump-deep-divisions/12477786


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> Some of Trump's supporters.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-28/us-election-donald-trump-deep-divisions/12477786




Only 100 turned up to the rally.
The poor girl they feature grew up poor and works 3 jobs. She is worried for her kids, has a Harley and is ready to fight in the militias against liberals. She can't see a decent way for her kids to have a good life. She will one day get sick and won't have insurance and so will die young. Says it all really. She is just a pawn.

There was a great posting on another thread about this being the new gilded age for the USA. I think that is very true. It took 30 years for it to end last time. At least another twenty left in my view. And before it does we are likely to see some really poor Presidents that will put Trump in the shade. Biden will be a 4 year Claudian interlude.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> Only 100 turned up to the rally.
> The poor girl they feature grew up poor and works 3 jobs. She is worried for her kids, has a Harley and is ready to fight in the militias against liberals. She can't see a decent way for her kids to have a good life. *She will one day get sick and won't have insurance and so will die young. *Says it all really. She is just a pawn.
> 
> There was a great posting on another thread about this being the new gilded age for the USA. I think that is very true. It took 30 years for it to end last time. At least another twenty left in my view. And before it does we are likely to see some really poor Presidents that will put Trump in the shade. Biden will be a 4 year Claudian interlude.




She's not going to get free health care under the Republicans, that's for sure.


----------



## basilio

Trump has built up Border Patrol as his own police force. They own him big time for the billions he has poured into their budgets. 
They support him unflinchingly. 
They have no accountability for their actions.
Check out this insight into the  culture and processes of this organisation .


* 'These are his people': inside the elite border patrol unit Trump sent to Portland *
Federal officers use chemical irritants and projectiles to disperse Black Lives Matter protesters on 24 July 2020, in Portland. Photograph: Noah Berger/AP
Bortac, a quasi-militarised outfit equivalent to the Navy Seals, has been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan

In January 2011, James Tomsheck, then a top internal affairs investigator inside US Customs and Border Protection, attended a meeting of about 100 senior CBP leaders in a hotel in Irvington, Virginia.

Amid the sanitized splendor of the hotel ballroom, he vividly recalls hearing the nation’s then highest-ranking border patrol agent, David Aguilar, laying out his vision for the future. Border patrol, the former CBP deputy commissioner said, was to become the “marine corps of the US federal law enforcement community”.

Another leading CBP figure remarked that border agents were not required to adhere to the same constitutional restraints on the use of force as other law enforcers. “We are not cops,” he said.






*  Trump is using federal agents as his 'goon squad', says Ice's ex-acting head  *
Read more
Fast forward to this month, when Tomsheck absorbed with mounting foreboding the images of federal officers – led by border patrol agents – wielding teargas and flash bangs against protesters in Portland, Oregon.

As news circulated of demonstrators being shot in the face with “less lethal” munitions, and of unidentified masked agents in camouflage strong-arming civilians into unmarked vans, the nightmare scenario Tomsheck had heard expressed by his bosses almost a decade ago – of border patrol becoming a nationwide militarized force operating outside constitutional constraints – was becoming real.

“Border patrol has always seen itself as a militarized force, and that aspiration is now being enabled by the current administration,” Tomsheck told the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/27/trump-border-patrol-troops-portland-bortac


----------



## orr

basilio said:


> Trump has built up Border Patrol as his own police force. They own him big time for the billions he has poured into their budgets.
> They support him unflinchingly.
> They have no accountability for their actions.
> Check out this insight into the  culture and processes of this organisation .
> 
> 
> * 'These are his people': inside the elite border patrol unit Trump sent to Portland *
> Federal officers use chemical irritants and projectiles to disperse Black Lives Matter protesters on 24 July 2020, in Portland. Photograph: Noah Berger/AP
> Bortac, a quasi-militarised outfit equivalent to the Navy Seals, has been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan
> 
> In January 2011, James Tomsheck, then a top internal affairs investigator inside US Customs and Border Protection, attended a meeting of about 100 senior CBP leaders in a hotel in Irvington, Virginia.
> 
> Amid the sanitized splendor of the hotel ballroom, he vividly recalls hearing the nation’s then highest-ranking border patrol agent, David Aguilar, laying out his vision for the future. Border patrol, the former CBP deputy commissioner said, was to become the “marine corps of the US federal law enforcement community”.
> 
> Another leading CBP figure remarked that border agents were not required to adhere to the same constitutional restraints on the use of force as other law enforcers. “We are not cops,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *  Trump is using federal agents as his 'goon squad', says Ice's ex-acting head  *
> Read more
> Fast forward to this month, when Tomsheck absorbed with mounting foreboding the images of federal officers – led by border patrol agents – wielding teargas and flash bangs against protesters in Portland, Oregon.
> 
> As news circulated of demonstrators being shot in the face with “less lethal” munitions, and of unidentified masked agents in camouflage strong-arming civilians into unmarked vans, the nightmare scenario Tomsheck had heard expressed by his bosses almost a decade ago – of border patrol becoming a nationwide militarized force operating outside constitutional constraints – was becoming real.
> 
> “Border patrol has always seen itself as a militarized force, and that aspiration is now being enabled by the current administration,” Tomsheck told the Guardian.
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/27/trump-border-patrol-troops-portland-bortac




The ghost of Ernst Rohm walks with them?
Who pulls the CBP's strings post election till inaugeration? if The Orange Fasist goes down.


----------



## basilio

Only in the  USA 

* 'Spectacular': Trump praises doctor who dismissed face masks after viral video *
Clip claiming benefits of hydroxychloroquine for coronavirus was removed by social media companies over false information

Donald Trump has praised as “spectacular” a doctor who wrongly dismissed the use of face masks to combat the coronavirus as well as reportedly claiming that alien DNA is used in medical treatments and some gynecological problems are caused by people dreaming about having sex with demons.

A group of lab coat-wearing doctors posted an online video on Monday to make a string of inaccurate assertions about the coronavirus that contradicted official government guidelines. Among them was a woman who identified herself as Dr Stella Immanuel and said: “You don’t need masks. There is a cure.”

The US president tweeted a version of the video, which rapidly gained tens of thousands of views on Facebook and YouTube before both companies took it down for containing false public health information. The president’s son Donald Trump Jr had his Twitter account restricted by the company for 12 hours after calling the video a “must watch”.

At a White House press conference on Tuesday, Trump expressed puzzlement over why the so-called “America’s Frontline Doctors” video had been removed, noting that Immanuel claimed to be treating hundreds of Covid-19 patients with the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine, which he has long championed despite federal public health advice that it is ineffective against coronavirus.

“I don’t know why,” he told reporters. “I think they’re very respected doctors. There was a woman who was spectacular in her statements about it and she’s had tremendous success with it.”

But Kaitlan Collins, White House correspondent for CNN, challenged the president. “The woman that you said was a ‘great doctor’ in that video that you retweeted last night said that masks don’t work and there is a cure for Covid-19, both of which health experts say is not true,” she said.

*“She’s also made videos saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they’re trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from becoming religious.”*

Looking increasingly agitated, Trump replied: “Maybe it’s the same [person], maybe it’s not, but I can tell you this. She was on air along with many other doctors. They were big fans of hydroxychloroquine and I thought she was very impressive in the sense that, from where she came – I don’t know which country she comes from – but she said that she’s had tremendous success with hundreds of different patients.

“And I thought her voice was an important voice, but I know nothing about her.”


----------



## basilio

*Summary of Trump dealing with COVID 19*


----------



## bellenuit

*2020 Election Live Updates: Trump Floats Whether to ‘Delay the Election,’ Something He Cannot Legally Do*

_Since the pandemic began, Democrats have feared that President Trump would seek to cancel or postpone November’s general election. On Thursday, for the first time, Mr. Trump in a tweet suggested the vote be delayed “until people can properly, securely and safely vote,” something he cannot legally do.

Even for Mr. Trump, suggesting a delay in the election is an extraordinary breach of presidential decorum that will increase the chances that Mr. Trump and his core supporters don’t accept the legitimacy of the election should he lose to former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.

His suggestion came minutes after the Commerce Department announced that the nation’s gross domestic product, the broadest measure of goods and services produced, fell 9.5 percent during the three months ending June 30, the largest quarterly drop on record.  

“With Universal Mail-In Voting (not Absentee Voting, which is good), 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history,” Mr. Trump wrote. “It will be a great embarrassment to the USA. Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???” 

which is set by federal law. His suggestion comes as polls show him trailing far behind Mr. Biden in surveys of nearly all of the key battleground states. And Mr. Trump’s claim that mail voting leads to inaccurate counts or fraud is false. 

But the president’s sustained attacks on mail voting, combined with Democratic efforts to encourage more of their voters to request and submit absentee ballots by mail, has led to a significant Democratic advantage in mail voting. In April, the liberal candidate for a Wisconsin state Supreme Court race performed about 10 percentage points better in ballots cast by mailthan she did on Election Day, according to a New York Times analysis of the returns.   

During the presidential primaries, states that shifted their balloting largely to the mail saw far larger voter turnout than did states that held their contests primarily in person. In Montana, which sent ballots to every registered voter in the state, 63 percent of registered voters cast ballots, the highest percentage in the nation, according to the National Vote at Home Institute, which encourages voting by mail. Seven of the nine lowest-turnout states held contests primarily in person, the institute found. 

At a White House coronavirus briefing in April, Mr. Trump affirmed that “the general election will happen on Nov. 3,” when asked whether his administration had taken steps to ensure it would not be derailed by the pandemic. But later in the same news conference, he baselessly asserted that “a lot of people cheat with mail-in voting” and argued that “people should vote with I.D.”_

_About five weeks later, Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and a senior White House adviser, refused to rule out postponing the presidential election in an interview with Time magazine, despite lacking the authority to do so: “I’m not sure I can commit one way or the other, but right now that’s the plan.” But he later sought to clarify his remark, saying he had “not been involved in, nor am I aware of, any discussions about trying to change the date of the presidential election.” And a White House official tried to downplay the comment, saying Mr. Kushner had been fully aware that the date of the election was set by federal law.

And earlier this month, in a television interview with Fox News, Mr. Trump declined to say whether he would accept the results of the 2020 election, echoing remarks he made in 2016. “It depends. I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election. I really do.” Pressed further on whether he would accept the results, Mr. Trump said, “I have to see.”
_


----------



## PZ99

Well it's better than his last attempt when he suggested they should cancel the election and "just give it to Trump" LOL

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/donald-trump-election-cancel-230414


----------



## basilio

The response after Trump called for a  delay  in the election has been profound.

*Federalist Society co-founder calls for Trump's impeachment*
*“Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats’ assertion that President Trump is a fascist,”* Steven Calabresi, a law professor and co-founder of the Federalist Society, an influential conservative organization, writes in a new op-ed in the New York Times. 

But President Trump’s tweet this morning seeking a postponement of the 2020 election “*is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president’s immediate impeachment again by the House of Representatives and his removal from office by the Senate*,” Calabresi wrote.

“President Trump needs to be told by every Republican in Congress that he cannot postpone the federal election. Doing so would be illegal, unconstitutional and without precedent in American history. Anyone who says otherwise should never be elected to Congress again,” he added. 






https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...onald-trump-john-lewis-joe-biden-live-updates


----------



## basilio

I bumped my head fell into a coma and I'm waking up in hospital. Whats happened folks ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I bumped my head fell into a coma and I'm waking up in hospital. Whats happened folks ?




Well bas you finally found it.
Every lie about Trump in one video.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Well bas you finally found it.
> Every lie about Trump in one video.




And put together by the Republicians..

Lies indeed.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> And put together by the Republicians..
> 
> Lies indeed.



That support democrats and whose base is majority democrat


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Well bas you finally found it.
> Every lie about Trump in one video.




And your thoughts on a more topical subject ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> And your thoughts on a more topical subject ?
> View attachment 106689



In the New York times no less.
That's a constitutional issue and he said "unless he relents".
He supported him all the way till the constitution was threatened. Which is exactly what should happen. Trump already backed away.


----------



## basilio

So in which US political system is it even *thinkable *for President to open a discussion about postponing the next election - and trying to suggest he has the power to do this ?

Of course the rationale behind his statement was another of Trumps  Big Lies - trying to undermine the voting system.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> So in which US political system is it even *thinkable *for President to open a discussion about postponing the next election - and trying to suggest he has the power to do this ?
> 
> Of course the rationale behind his statement was another of Trumps  Big Lies - trying to undermine the voting system.



Trump says a constant stream of dumb sht.

But....
The current elections are making it easy for dems to ballot harvest. Also late mail in votes risk not being counted as the president is decided on the day. So delayed mail isn't counted I believe. And I'm sure that is what this is in reference to about delaying till votes are counted.  Both sides play a lot of games with various vote getting tactics.

But you can't argue against the constitution.


----------



## basilio

*About Dr Fauci.
*


----------



## IFocus

Got this about Trump from some where else its not bad


"The “billionaire” who hides his tax returns. The “genius” who hides his college grades. The “businessman” who bankrupted 3 casinos and lost over $1B in 10 yrs. The “playboy” who pays for sex. The “virologist” who knows more than Dr. Fauci. The “leader of the free world” who said he “fell in love” with North Korea’s Kim Jong-un. The “Christian” who doesn’t go to church. The “President” who committed treason by turning a blind eye to Russian bounties on our soldiers. The “unifier” who calls white supremacists fine people. The “philanthropist” who defrauds charity. The “patriot” who dodged the draft five times. The “innocent man” who refuses to testify. The “President” who takes no responsibility. The “tough, strong” man who wears makeup and hairspray. The “deal maker” who has yet to close a deal."

The one who claims he's making America great again.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Got this about Trump from some where else its not bad
> 
> 
> "The “billionaire” who hides his tax returns. The “genius” who hides his college grades. The “businessman” who bankrupted 3 casinos and lost over $1B in 10 yrs. The “playboy” who pays for sex. The “virologist” who knows more than Dr. Fauci. The “leader of the free world” who said he “fell in love” with North Korea’s Kim Jong-un. The “Christian” who doesn’t go to church. The “President” who committed treason by turning a blind eye to Russian bounties on our soldiers. The “unifier” who calls white supremacists fine people. The “philanthropist” who defrauds charity. The “patriot” who dodged the draft five times. The “innocent man” who refuses to testify. The “President” who takes no responsibility. The “tough, strong” man who wears makeup and hairspray. The “deal maker” who has yet to close a deal."
> 
> The one who claims he's making America great again.



And everyone loved him...... until he beat Hillary.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> And everyone loved him...... until he beat Hillary.




He wasn't everyone's favorite Uncle before he beat Hilary....
3.5 years of repeatedly demonstrating the qualities outlined in IFocus post have crystallized how most of us see him.


----------



## basilio

This is why Donald Trump has no credibility as a leader in the US.

*Donald Trump claims Anthony Fauci 'wrong' about cause of Covid-19 surge*
President again contradicts his own health expert after doctor highlights troubled US response to virus
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/01/trump-covid-19-fauci-cases-testing


----------



## basilio

How the Lincoln Project is undermining Trumps re election hopes.

*Could this anti-Trump Republican group take down the president?*
Savage attack ads from a well-funded group of dissident Republicans are aiming to sway a key sliver of opinion in swing states

Amid all the noise of an election involving Donald Trump – all the inflammatory tweets and shadowy Facebook posts – one set of ads has somehow managed to break through.

There’s the one of the US president shuffling down a ramp that declares that the president “is not well”. There’s the whispering one about Trump’s “loyalty problem” inside his White House, campaign and family.

There’s the epic Mourning in America that remakes Reagan’s election-defining 1984 ad, turning the sun-bathed suburbs into a dark national portrait of pandemic and recession. *On Twitter, YouTube and Facebook, those three ads alone have racked up more than 35m views.*

The Lincoln Project, run by a group of renegade Republican political consultants, has crystallized one of the core narratives of the 2020 campaign in ways that few other political commercials have in past cycles.

....  Alongside the top-tier surrogates and ads, there is a grassroots effort to organize women, veterans and evangelicals to reach out to persuade Republicans to abandon the president who dominates their party.

“There are certain voters we’re not going to move – the one-issue voters on the right to life – and that’s OK,” says Lenti.

*“We’re looking at 3-5% of Republicans in certain states. They tend to be more educated than not. Over 40 years old, and the demographic split is about 50/50, maybe a little towards men*. We’re also seeing traction with some evangelicals, and those are typically older and less educated.”

*That sliver of disaffected Republicans is the target for ads *like Mourning in America: people who are old enough to remember the original from three decades ago are also old enough to be at the highest risk of the coronavirus. “Under the leadership of Donald Trump,” the narrator says, “our country is weaker, and sicker, and poorer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...project-donald-trump-republicans-campaign-ads


----------



## basilio

*Gaslighting Donald Trump. *


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> He wasn't everyone's favorite Uncle before he beat Hilary....
> 3.5 years of repeatedly demonstrating the qualities outlined in IFocus post have crystallized how most of us communists see him.



Corrected for you ^^


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Corrected for you ^^




Indeed.

Including of course the rhinos running the Lincoln Project, all world leaders (except  Bolsonaro..) and the 150 dead Americans sacrificed  on the alter of Trumps supreme stable geniusness. (Not sure about their next of kin.)

Of course in Waynes World no matter how how bad the Don might appear he cannot possibly be worse than any alternative President teh Democrats  propose.

Indeed ...

Back to a pithy look at why *and how* The Lincoln Project is determined to destry Trump and Trumpism.


----------



## basilio

Great story on  Trumps grasp of US history. Self explanatory.


----------



## wayneL

Is your stipend direct from Soros, of via one of his many "NGOs"?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> How the Lincoln Project is undermining Trumps re election hopes.
> 
> *Could this anti-Trump Republican group take down the president?*
> Savage attack ads from a well-funded group of dissident Republicans are aiming to sway a key sliver of opinion in swing states
> 
> Amid all the noise of an election involving Donald Trump – all the inflammatory tweets and shadowy Facebook posts – one set of ads has somehow managed to break through.
> 
> There’s the one of the US president shuffling down a ramp that declares that the president “is not well”. There’s the whispering one about Trump’s “loyalty problem” inside his White House, campaign and family.
> 
> There’s the epic Mourning in America that remakes Reagan’s election-defining 1984 ad, turning the sun-bathed suburbs into a dark national portrait of pandemic and recession. *On Twitter, YouTube and Facebook, those three ads alone have racked up more than 35m views.*
> 
> The Lincoln Project, run by a group of renegade Republican political consultants, has crystallized one of the core narratives of the 2020 campaign in ways that few other political commercials have in past cycles.
> 
> ....  Alongside the top-tier surrogates and ads, there is a grassroots effort to organize women, veterans and evangelicals to reach out to persuade Republicans to abandon the president who dominates their party.
> 
> “There are certain voters we’re not going to move – the one-issue voters on the right to life – and that’s OK,” says Lenti.
> 
> *“We’re looking at 3-5% of Republicans in certain states. They tend to be more educated than not. Over 40 years old, and the demographic split is about 50/50, maybe a little towards men*. We’re also seeing traction with some evangelicals, and those are typically older and less educated.”
> 
> *That sliver of disaffected Republicans is the target for ads *like Mourning in America: people who are old enough to remember the original from three decades ago are also old enough to be at the highest risk of the coronavirus. “Under the leadership of Donald Trump,” the narrator says, “our country is weaker, and sicker, and poorer.”
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...project-donald-trump-republicans-campaign-ads



Only the guardian takes them seriously. They are political consultants currently griffting off billionaire democrat supporters. No Republican takes them seriously.

And honestly, he will lose because he can't energise his base through rallies in swing states. He had a chance before covid. But the virus has severely crippled his options.


----------



## basilio

*Houston Police Chief to Trump: 'Keep Your Mouth Shut' | *


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Is your stipend direct from Soros, of via one of his many "NGOs"?




Isn't it amazing just how clever the Fake News people are at putting together stories that show what a dangerous, ignorant, bombastic, incompetent President Donald Trump is ? 
Because clearly in Waynes World none of these clips can be true .. could they ?

And who needs to be paid by anyone to realise, recognise and revolt against one of the most criminal, ignorant, dangerous Presidents to ever sit in the White House ?  Really ?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> But the virus has severely crippled his options.



Not to mention killing off his base in droves.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> He wasn't everyone's favorite Uncle before he beat Hilary....
> 3.5 years of repeatedly demonstrating the qualities outlined in IFocus post have crystallized how most of us see him.



He was always a self promoter. Where have you been the last 40 years?
 He has always had the "biggest/best" schtick going on. Hence the "trump towers" and other gimmicky crap. He hasn't changed. Everyone knew what they were getting.  He got sprung talking about "grabbing them by the pu%%y"  during his campaign. 

And he still beat Hillary.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Isn't it amazing just how clever the Fake News people are at putting together stories that show what a dangerous, ignorant, bombastic, incompetent President Donald Trump is ?
> Because clearly in Waynes World none of these clips can be true .. could they ?
> 
> And who needs to be paid by anyone to realise, recognise and revolt against one of the most criminal, ignorant, dangerous Presidents to ever sit in the White House since Obama?  Really ?




Again, corrected for you, bas


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> He was always a self promoter. Where have you been the last 40 years?
> He has always had the "biggest/best" schtick going on. Hence the "trump towers" and other gimmicky crap. He hasn't changed. Everyone knew what they were getting.  He got sprung talking about "grabbing them by the pu%%y"  during his campaign.
> 
> And he still beat Hillary.




 And has he turned out to be a great President ?


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> And has he turned out to be a great President ?



Yes.

History will show this, once the obfuscation of the democrats goes on the wane.


----------



## macca

basilio said:


> So in which US political system is it even *thinkable *for President to open a discussion about postponing the next election - and trying to suggest he has the power to do this ?
> 
> Of course the rationale behind his statement was another of Trumps  Big Lies - trying to undermine the voting system.




Queensland did exactly that with the local Council elections, the State Govt passed a law that they could postpone/defer the Local Govt elections as they pleased, did you post how outrageous that was ?

Overnight Queensland Parliament passed legislation that allows the State Government unprecedented power to change the election date of the upcoming local government elections.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...council-local-elections-may-postpone/12064268


----------



## orr

Keep'm coming Bas...
When you see nepotism rit so large as with Trump ...well ... "it's the children/step children I don't feel sorry for'...
& Focus, That one was all your's wasn't it,  and you're just to humble to take credit .

When Republicans in the US can see the way to a better future, there just maybe some Hope...


----------



## wayneL

orr said:


> Keep'm coming Bas...
> When you see nepotism rit so large as with Trump ...well ... "it's the children/step children I don't feel sorry for'...
> & Focus, That one was all your's wasn't it,  and you're just to humble to take credit .
> 
> When Republicans in the US can see the way to a better future, there just maybe some Hope...



Cue very loud sn-orr-ing.

Wake me up when this (misspelt) nonsense has passed by.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Yes.
> 
> History will show this, once the obfuscation of the democrats goes on the wane.




Ah Komrade.. Such loyalty ! Such  confidence !

You are indeed a True Believer.

The Don will go down in history as the most special US President of all time.

That everyone can agree on.


----------



## basilio

*The Presidents Clothes.*

_A Rich Tapestry of the Finest Shining Silks, Lustrous Velvets and Sparkling Jewels ._
_Only viewable to the  Sainted Eyes  of the True Believers._

The Muggles will have to consider the  words of others to understand what has happened to US Politics.

*It Was All a Lie review: Trump as symptom not cause of Republican decline*
A consultant for Bush and Romney laments the fate of his party and sees heavy defeat as the best medicine to hope for

Stuart Stevens’ It Was All a Lie is a sustained attack, both jeremiad and confession, on the Republican party he served for 40 years. His is the hand at Belshazzar’s political feast: “All of these immutable truths turned out to be marketing slogans. None of it meant anything. I was the guy working for Bernie Madoff who actually thought we were really smart and just crushing the market.”

Stevens, a consultant, is refreshingly frank about his role and responsibility. “Blame me,” he writes, adding: “I had been lying to myself for decades.” He seeks a new leaf on a “crazy idea that a return to personal responsibility begins with personal responsibility”.

...  stripped “of any pretense of governing philosophy, a political party will default to being controlled by those who shout the loudest and are unhindered by any semblance of normalcy”. The first casualty is the truth.* “Large elements of the Republican party have made a collective decision that there is no objective truth” and that a cause or simple access to power is more important.*

Rather than saying the sky is green, the new strategy is “to build a world in which the sky is in fact green. Then everyone who says it is blue is clearly a liar.” Sadly, it has worked.* Stevens notes that once “there is no challenge to the craziest of ideas that have no basis in fact, it is easy for Trump to take one small bit of truth and spin it into an elaborate fantasy.”
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/02/it-was-all-a-lie-review-trump-republican-party


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Ah Komrade.. Such loyalty ! Such  confidence !
> 
> You are indeed a True Believer.
> 
> The Don will go down in history as the most special US President of all time.
> 
> That everyone can agree on.



Point of order, bas.

Komrades and true believers are for you communists afflicted with hive mind.

People like me are more objective. When people like me examine historical record, they will of course see many mistakes just like every president. But they will evaluate his achievements against the drag of a ridiculous, deranged and juvenile opposition.


----------



## bellenuit

Over the weekend, *Republican* Steve Schmidt, who ran John McCain's 2008 campaign for president, was interviewed on MSNBC.

_In response to a very general question regarding the Trump Presidency, Mr. Schmidt spoke for two solid minutes and gave the most insightful and brutally honest response of what the Trump Presidency has done to our great country.

“Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And, I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And, he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And, there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.”

"When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.”

"It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale."

"And, let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are, because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk._


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Over the weekend, *Republican* Steve Schmidt, who ran John McCain's 2008 campaign for president, was interviewed on MSNBC.
> 
> _In response to a very general question regarding the Trump Presidency, Mr. Schmidt spoke for two solid minutes and gave the most insightful and brutally honest response of what the Trump Presidency has done to our great country.
> 
> “Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And, I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And, he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And, there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.”
> 
> "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.”
> 
> "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale."
> 
> "And, let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are, because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk._




Bit blunt.. Clearly doesn't like the cut of the Presidents clothes.


----------



## Knobby22

It is amazing how he much damage he has done to US interests. The failures are multiple and varied. I can't believe  China  is now getting away with building a base in Iran. I can't believe there are people here who still think he is great.

Summarising:
_
Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And, I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And, he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable.

this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness

When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot.

He's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale."_
*
Republican* Steve Schmidt


----------



## IFocus

In the US you are 70 times more likely to catch Covid 19 and 22 times more likely to die than in Australia...........just think about that for a moment before praising or defending Trump, what a mess.


----------



## IFocus

Another interview...........


----------



## moXJO

Steve Schmidt was a political consultant. Wasn't invited to mcCains funeral. He helped pick Sarah Palin then torched her via media. The guy was not loved by republicans.

However he was running Howard Schultz which could split the dem vote enough to get trump re-elected luckily Howard dropped out.

He also tried to join trumps team in 2016 but was shown the door. Trump thought he was a total idiot (let that sink in for a minute).
The guy is a griffter.



> NEWS
> 
> *Lincoln Project co-founder met with Trump for campaign role in 2016*
> By Ebony Bowden
> 
> July 27, 2020 | 2:32pm
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lincoln Project co-founder Steve Schmidt (left) and President Donald TrumpGetty Images
> Well, this is a little awkward.
> 
> Steve Schmidt, one of the co-founders of anti-Trump political action group the Lincoln Project, met with then-candidate Donald Trump and tried to join his campaign during a 2016 Manhattan meeting, sources with knowledge of the conversation told The Post.
> 
> But the Republican operative — best known for his work on John McCain’s failed presidential bid before becoming one of the faces of the “Never Trump” movement — failed to get the gig because Trump thought he was a “total idiot,” one of the sources said.
> 
> Ten days after Schmidt’s March 2016 meeting at Trump Tower, the campaign hired Paul Manafort as chairman and eventually promoted him to campaign manager.
> 
> In an interview with PRWeek two years later, the Jersey-born political strategist and PR executive nonchalantly recounted the meeting with Trump as a chance to “see what he was about” and likened it to being given the opportunity to see a UFO in Central Park.
> 
> But sources familiar with the meeting said Schmidt spent the entire encounter presenting what he thought the outsider candidate needed to do to win the election and was reportedly gunning for the campaign chief role, which Corey Lewandowski was fired from three months later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Donald Trump’s former campaign manager, Corey LewandowskiGetty Images
> One source said Schmidt, 49, thought the president was “the best candidate he had ever seen” and recounted how the campaign and the operative exchanged emails for months beforehand.
> 
> But things quickly soured when Trump thought Schmidt’s ideas were bad and the Big Apple real estate mogul left the meeting with a feeling that Schmidt was “very untrustworthy” and a “total idiot,” the insider said.
> 
> “The president was very turned off by the fact that Schmidt had turned on McCain, his former boss, for the money,” the source alleged, referring to Schmidt’s decision to dish dirt on the 2008 campaign he helped guide to doom in a lengthy interview for scandalous campaign book “Game Change,” which eventually became a movie.
> _




So interesting history. One you wouldn't know when you guys post. There's no context, history, only bias. You could all get a job at cnn.


----------



## basilio

The Trump interview with Axios. What happened.
_Jonathan Swan is Dr Norman Swans son._

*Donald Trump whipped out the charts to make his case about coronavirus. They didn't help him get around reporter Jonathan Swan*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-05/donald-trump-axios-interview-jonathan-swan/12524552


----------



## sptrawler

Hope nothing happens to Trump Bas, you will be lost, you contribute 50% of the postings on this thread.


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> The Trump interview with Axios. What happened.
> _Jonathan Swan is Dr Norman Swans son._
> 
> *Donald Trump whipped out the charts to make his case about coronavirus. They didn't help him get around reporter Jonathan Swan*
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-05/donald-trump-axios-interview-jonathan-swan/12524552



Great interview.
The kids ie teens are all sharing it. They tell me he comes across like an 8 year old.
To me he comes across as a likeable uncle   who you wouldn't put in charge of looking after your garden if you went on holiday as he is a bit simple.


----------



## Muckman

At one stage I thought he had the printer test pages lol


----------



## IFocus

Trumps gone


----------



## basilio

Trump building his Wall


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Hope nothing happens to Trump Bas, you will be lost, you contribute 50% of the postings on this thread.




Hah. * Not at all. *
If/when he does get booted out we can follow his adventures in the law courts.

He deserves a special follow up.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Trumps gone




I do believe he is gone.
There's a reason he pumped out stimulus hard and why the democrats withheld it. 

A lot can happen in 2 months though. Been a hell of a year.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> I do believe he is gone.
> There's a reason he pumped out stimulus hard and why the democrats withheld it.
> 
> A lot can happen in 2 months though. Been a hell of a year.





Yeah I wouldn't put money on it 

I think everything can happen what ever that is  including Trumps re-election. 

Trumps base is still solidly behind him still Corona is now into the US rural areas which is of great concern to the medical fraternity apparently that's the start of run away infections which wont help Trumps cause.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Hah. * Not at all. *
> If/when he does get booted out we can follow his adventures in the law courts.
> 
> He deserves a special follow up.



If Trump is gone, it will be our turn to ceaselessly post bs articles on Biden.

Quid pro quo, bro.


----------



## PZ99

wayneL said:


> If Trump is gone, it will be our turn to ceaselessly post bs articles on Biden.
> 
> Quid pro quo, bro.



Mate... I don't think either of us believe Biden would be that good for people to have a need to post bs articles for a cheap e-catharsis...

But thanx for the advanced warning


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> If Trump is gone, it will be our turn to ceaselessly post bs articles on Biden.




BS articles indeed..   Quite sure there will be plenty of those. Fox Briebart and co are always good at such efforts.

But I think we will miss out on the true Trumpian tales. 20,000 lies on everything from the nothing problems of COVID to fantasy stories on  how many people came to the inauguration.

We won't get to hear how  Bidens family leached into the White House and set up Trump hotels around the world and "encouraged" other countries to support these endeavors if they wanted to speak with "The Don"

There won't be an endless stream on past partners parading through the Press with stories of abuse or just routine sex and* every one being called liars *while "The Don's " consiligeri paid them off.

We won't have the routine daily tweets trashing everyone in sight and making up foreign policy  on the run at 6 am that convinces  every other leader with two functioning neurons *that this guy is xxxxing crackers.
*
We won't have an endless parade of  prosecutors looking for his Tax returns to establish exactly where and how he defrauded the Government and who he was paying off.

But as I said these stories may indeed continue into 2021 anyway.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I just noticed this on Twitter. Has the NYSAG finally got something on the Orange Fool in the White House.

gg


----------



## cynic

GG may be onto something:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...mps-records-Deutsche-Bank-widening-probe.html

Anyhow, the world will likely find out more about this within the next 3 to 4 hours.


----------



## bellenuit

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I just noticed this on Twitter. Has the NYSAG finally got something on the Orange Fool in the White House.




There was something the other day that NY (I can't recall what office) were also investigating him for insurance fraud and that was why they were demanding his tax returns. Something to do with inflating his assets.


----------



## cynic

One thing I will say though, just based upon the way the dailymail article reads, it does look suspiciously like this has arisen pursuant to yet another "witch hunt".

Perhaps they have, after the past few years of solid efforts in this regard, actually found one at last!

However, based upon the Democrats' more recent track record, I have decided that it would be unwise to be holding one's breath in anticipation, of anything more, than the performance of yet another ill fated political satire.

(Less than one hour to go!!)


----------



## bellenuit

cynic said:


> (Less than one hour to go!!)




Do you know any source broadcasting live?


----------



## bellenuit

We can go to bed now.....

_*BREAKING NEWS * New York Attorney General Letitia James just announced that she filed a lawsuit against the NRA to dissolve the organization._


----------



## cynic

bellenuit said:


> We can go to bed now.....
> 
> _*BREAKING NEWS * New York Attorney General Letitia James just announced that she filed a lawsuit against the NRA to dissolve the organization._



Apologies for not replying earlier, I was busy watching it live via "Agenda free"'s youtube channel.

Edit: Letitia is taking questions from the press now.


----------



## cynic

Letitia was just asked for comment on the recent news reports of subpoena/s for Deutsche bank documents relating to Trump's financial dealings and the status of any associated investigation/s.

Letitia, understandably, declined to comment.


----------



## bellenuit

cynic said:


> Apologies for not replying earlier, I was busy watching it live via "Agenda free"'s youtube channel.
> 
> Edit: Letitia is taking questions from the press now.




I found a twitter channel too that had it live. I only watched the first few minutes. 

I don't rate their chances of dissolving the NRA. About as much chance as Trump voluntarily releasing his tax returns.

It might be interesting to see if this has any effect on the election. The GOP side will probably claim that this is all part of the Democrat's plan to take away their guns.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

*Trump  sends Dr Fauci  and 150,000 dead Americans an "Up yours"*

Asked whether the press conference,(held* at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey,)*  which was attended by members of his golf club, some of whom were not wearing masks and who were not maintaining social distance, was violating New Jersey guidelines for golf clubs, *Trump* said no, “Because it’s a political activity they have exceptions.”

Their gathering and refusal to wear masks is “also a peaceful protest,” Trump said, because his wealthy golf club members “know the news is fake.”

The crowd cheered.

The president recently reversed his anti-mask stance and suggested that wearing face coverings to stop the spread of coronavirus is “patriotic” - but he seems to have changed his mind again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...cy-pelosi-donald-trump-joe-biden-live-updates

Worth reading to see the content of his Press Conference


----------



## bellenuit

basilio said:


> The president recently reversed his anti-mask stance and suggested that wearing face coverings to stop the spread of coronavirus is “patriotic” - but he seems to have changed his mind again.




I'm beginning to wonder if he has now decided on a two-pronged approach. 

Do little to prevent COVID-19 spread, so that the numbers are so scary come election time that vulnerable and poorer people will be reticent to vote in person. The risk to them is far higher than the population in general, as they have fewer polling places close to the areas in which they live, meaning they will be longer queues there. At the same time, take whatever action is within his powers (abetted by some state Governors) to prevent postal voting. He knows cheating is the only possible way he can win at this stage. 

Who cares how many die due this approach. It is what it is.


----------



## dutchie

Biden Says He Can't Wait To Find Out Who He Picked For VP

WASHINGTON, D.C.—According to sources in the Biden campaign, the presidential candidate is on pins and needles waiting to see who it is he picked to run for vice president on his ticket.

Campaign aides say it's been Biden's most anticipated event since he found out he was running for president a few weeks ago. 

A reporter asked Biden if he could hint about his VP pick during a brief interlude from his stay in the basement, where he was allowed to come upstairs to get some snacks.

"Oh boy -- I hope it's a real classy broad," he said.

https://babylonbee.com/news


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

Trump just signed 4 executive orders:


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

So who will be doing the honors of opening up a new thread for the 2020 US Presidential Election political analysis. Or will this thread just be the prime thread for the forecasts, analysis and projections?

Less than 3 months to go; if the potential postal vote rigging can be stopped.

They can just start getting the hand sanitizer and masks ready now/stockpiled for the election; *no need to postal vote if there are adequate measures in place*. People get given a mask if they don't have one, people sanitize their hands, people social distance; and away they go to vote.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

Massive political mistake for Biden not wanting to take the test, if his cognitive abilities are in fact good enough for presidency:



> _Former Vice President Joe Biden said he has not taken a test to measure his cognitive ability, shrugging off the suggestion as President Trump and his campaign continue to question his mental fitness for office.
> 
> "No, I haven't taken a test. Why the hell would I take a test? Come on, man," Biden told CBS News correspondent Errol Barnett in an interview airing in full on Thursday at the convention of the National Association of Black Journalists and National Association of Hispanic Journalists. "That's like saying you, before you got in this program, you're taking a test whether you're taking cocaine or not. What do you think, huh? Are you a junkie?"_




(https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-cognitive-test-why-the-hell-would-i-take-a-test/)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

Trump is good at picking names for his political opponents and I think Trump needs a suggestion for Biden. I think Trump should start calling Biden: *Mindless Joe

*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

I suppose I should post some results of my exams: however I didn't really try, or had a need to try, until I had to maintain a credit average to ensure pathways were open to higher academic study; which I don't really now need:


----------



## PZ99

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Trump is good at picking names for his political opponents and I think Trump needs a suggestion for Biden. I think Trump should start calling Biden: *Mindless Joe
> *



Sleepy Joe is the one Trump's been using up to now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nicknames_used_by_Donald_Trump


----------



## moXJO

Bas, did you recently visit the white house?


----------



## basilio

I'm so glad we have the Don's assurance that he didn't fish for a place on Mt Rushmore. 

* Donald Trump denies asking how to add face to Mount Rushmore *
White House reportedly asked South Dakota official about expanding monument

Martin Belam

Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.18 AEST   First published on Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.16 AEST




 Donald Trump smiles in front of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial in July. Photograph: Alex Brandon/AP 

Donald Trump has denied that his team ever approached South Dakota’s governor about adding his face to the iconic monument depicting four presidents at Mount Rushmore. However, he added that it sounded like a good idea.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nies-asking-how-to-add-face-to-mount-rushmore


----------



## IFocus

"COVID-19 didn’t lay America low; it simply revealed what had long been forsaken. As the crisis unfolded, with another American dying every minute of every day, a country that once turned out fighter planes by the hour could not manage to produce the paper masks or cotton swabs essential for tracking the disease. The nation that defeated smallpox and polio, and led the world for generations in medical innovation and discovery, *was reduced to a laughing stock as a buffoon of a president advocated the use of household disinfectants as a treatment for a disease that intellectually he could not begin to understand.*

As a number of countries moved expeditiously to contain the virus, the United States stumbled along in denial, as if willfully blind. With less than four percent of the global population, the U.S. soon accounted for more than a fifth of COVID deaths. The percentage of American victims of the disease who died was six times the global average. *Achieving the world’s highest rate of morbidity and mortality provoked not shame, but only further lies, scapegoating, and boasts of miracle cures as dubious as the claims of a carnival barker, a grifter on the make."

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...I2U3PO75Jd_rZJ_1AAFfsIAu93TnQfmrNKFu5xWJo7Ahc*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

moXJO said:


> Bas, did you recently visit the white house?




I thought Bas would be on the Secret Service detail blacklist.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus

basilio said:


> I'm so glad we have the Don's assurance that he didn't fish for a place on Mt Rushmore.
> 
> * Donald Trump denies asking how to add face to Mount Rushmore *
> White House reportedly asked South Dakota official about expanding monument
> 
> Martin Belam
> 
> Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.18 AEST   First published on Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.16 AEST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump smiles in front of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial in July. Photograph: Alex Brandon/AP
> 
> Donald Trump has denied that his team ever approached South Dakota’s governor about adding his face to the iconic monument depicting four presidents at Mount Rushmore. However, he added that it sounded like a good idea.
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nies-asking-how-to-add-face-to-mount-rushmore




Bas, do try to keep up with the events, I posted this 2 days ago on another thread.


----------



## Knobby22

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Bas, do try to keep up with the events, I posted this 2 days ago on another thread.




If he does get in I am sure he will get his face there and it will be a logical fit and there is only room for one more.

Five phases of America:
George Washington: leading the birth of the nation;
Thomas Jefferson: sparking its westward expansion;
Abraham Lincoln: preserving the union and emancipating slaves;
Teddy Roosevelt: championing industrial innovation.
Donald Trump: I am sure we could all come up with one, the USA is likely at a turning point ( I am personally thinking something similar in wording to George Washington, maybe one word changed).


----------



## basilio




----------



## Chronos-Plutus

Knobby22 said:


> If he does get in I am sure he will get his face there and it will be a logical fit and there is only room for one more.
> 
> Five phases of America:
> George Washington: leading the birth of the nation;
> Thomas Jefferson: sparking its westward expansion;
> Abraham Lincoln: preserving the union and emancipating slaves;
> Teddy Roosevelt: championing industrial innovation.
> Donald Trump: I am sure we could all come up with one, the USA is likely at a turning point ( I am personally thinking something similar in wording to George Washington, maybe one word changed).




Donald Trump: Bringing America back to its founding fathers. Making America Great Again!


----------



## wayneL

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Donald Trump: Bringing America back to its founding fathers. Making America Great Again!



BOOM!

But he will need another term and several hundred indictments of toxic democrats (and some republicans) to bring that about, if he is capable and has the backing.

Though I must admit, at this point it does seem a bridge too far. The swamp seems too deep.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I'm so glad we have the Don's assurance that he didn't fish for a place on Mt Rushmore.
> 
> * Donald Trump denies asking how to add face to Mount Rushmore *
> White House reportedly asked South Dakota official about expanding monument
> 
> Martin Belam
> 
> Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.18 AEST   First published on Mon 10 Aug 2020 22.16 AEST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump smiles in front of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial in July. Photograph: Alex Brandon/AP
> 
> Donald Trump has denied that his team ever approached South Dakota’s governor about adding his face to the iconic monument depicting four presidents at Mount Rushmore. However, he added that it sounded like a good idea.
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nies-asking-how-to-add-face-to-mount-rushmore



I'm disappointed he didn't. I would have thought that was a vote winner. 
I'd also accept trumps head on the statue of liberty.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I'd also accept trumps head on the statue of liberty.




Excellent suggestion.. I'm up for sticking it on myself. 
Where's the chainsaw ?


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> I'd also accept trumps head on the statue of liberty.




I'm dead against it. It would ruin the classic movie Planet of the Apes.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Excellent suggestion.. I'm up for sticking it on myself.
> Where's the chainsaw ?



Hate speech, promoting violence.


----------



## IFocus

The American president lives to* cultivate resentments, demonize his opponents, validate hatred. His main tool of governance is the lie; *as of July 9th, 2020, the documented tally of his distortions and false statements numbered 20,055. If America’s first president, George Washington, famously could not tell a lie, the current one can’t recognize the truth. Inverting the words and sentiments of Abraham Lincoln, this dark troll of a man celebrates malice for all, and charity for none.

Odious as he may be, Trump is less the cause of America’s decline than a product of its descent. As they stare into the mirror and perceive only the myth of their exceptionalism, Americans remain almost bizarrely incapable of seeing what has actually become of their country. The republic that defined the free flow of information as the life blood of democracy, *today ranks 45th among nations when it comes to press freedom.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...I2U3PO75Jd_rZJ_1AAFfsIAu93TnQfmrNKFu5xWJo7Ahc*


----------



## cynic

I have such deep sorrow, knowing the disappointment, that will doubtless be felt, by many of our esteemed ASF brethren, whom, unable to obtain permits for international flight, must therefore be precluded from participation in this event:


----------



## dutchie

wayneL said:


> Hate speech, promoting violence.



Yes a bit over the top, but typical of the rabid left.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> The American president lives to* cultivate resentments, demonize his opponents, validate hatred. His main tool of governance is the lie; *as of July 9th, 2020, the documented tally of his distortions and false statements numbered 20,055. If America’s first president, George Washington, famously could not tell a lie, the current one can’t recognize the truth. Inverting the words and sentiments of Abraham Lincoln, this dark troll of a man celebrates malice for all, and charity for none.
> 
> Odious as he may be, Trump is less the cause of America’s decline than a product of its descent. As they stare into the mirror and perceive only the myth of their exceptionalism, Americans remain almost bizarrely incapable of seeing what has actually become of their country. The republic that defined the free flow of information as the life blood of democracy, *today ranks 45th among nations when it comes to press freedom.
> 
> https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...I2U3PO75Jd_rZJ_1AAFfsIAu93TnQfmrNKFu5xWJo7Ahc*




But please do not talk about the lies the MSM prolificates everyday.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Hate speech, promoting violence.




Ah Wayne  

Are you just* jealous* because I didn't propose putting your head on the Statue of Liberty..

I  didn't realise you cared so much..


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Ah Wayne
> 
> Are you just* jealous* because I didn't propose putting your head on the Statue of Liberty..
> 
> I  didn't realise you cared so much..



Just playing by your own rules, Komrade


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> The American president lives to* cultivate resentments, demonize his opponents, validate hatred. His main tool of governance is the lie; *as of July 9th, 2020, the documented tally of his distortions and false statements numbered 20,055. If America’s first president, George Washington, famously could not tell a lie, the current one can’t recognize the truth. Inverting the words and sentiments of Abraham Lincoln, this dark troll of a man celebrates malice for all, and charity for none.
> 
> Odious as he may be, Trump is less the cause of America’s decline than a product of its descent. As they stare into the mirror and perceive only the myth of their exceptionalism, Americans remain almost bizarrely incapable of seeing what has actually become of their country. The republic that defined the free flow of information as the life blood of democracy, *today ranks 45th among nations when it comes to press freedom.
> 
> https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...I2U3PO75Jd_rZJ_1AAFfsIAu93TnQfmrNKFu5xWJo7Ahc*



This analysis is far more than just trashing Trump.
The overview of how empires rise and fall, where the US fits in this picture and the comparisons of US achievement vs other countries is thought provoking.

* The Unraveling of America   *
 
*Anthropologist Wade Davis on how COVID-19 signals the end of the American era*
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...vid-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206*/*


----------



## basilio

So much for democracy  and the sanctity of the vote in the US.  Just been flushed .

*Trump admits he's refusing to fund the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting*





President Donald Trump told Fox Business on Thursday morning that he would block additional funding and election assistance for the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting. 

 On Wednesday and Thursday, Trump said he would not sign off on any relief bill that includes emergency federal funds for the USPS and more money to process election-related mail. 

“They want $US25 billion – billion – for the post office. Now they need that money in order to have the post office work so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots,” Trump said on Thursday, adding, “But if they don’t get those two items, that means you can’t have universal mail-in voting.” 

 Under Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, the cash-strapped USPS has implemented cost-cutting measures that experts say could harm the delivery of election-related mail. 

 Visit Business Insider’s homepage for more stories. 

President Donald Trump told Fox Business’ Maria Bartiromo on Thursday morning that he would block additional funding and election assistance for the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting.
*https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...funding-sabotage-mail-voting-2020-8?r=US&IR=T*


----------



## basilio

basilio said:


> So much for democracy  and the sanctity of the vote in the US.  Just been flushed .
> 
> *Trump admits he's refusing to fund the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Donald Trump told Fox Business on Thursday morning that he would block additional funding and election assistance for the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting.
> 
> On Wednesday and Thursday, Trump said he would not sign off on any relief bill that includes emergency federal funds for the USPS and more money to process election-related mail.
> 
> “They want $US25 billion – billion – for the post office. Now they need that money in order to have the post office work so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots,” Trump said on Thursday, adding, “But if they don’t get those two items, that means you can’t have universal mail-in voting.”
> 
> Under Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, the cash-strapped USPS has implemented cost-cutting measures that experts say could harm the delivery of election-related mail.
> 
> Visit Business Insider’s homepage for more stories.
> 
> President Donald Trump told Fox Business’ Maria Bartiromo on Thursday morning that he would block additional funding and election assistance for the US Postal Service to sabotage mail-in voting.
> *https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...funding-sabotage-mail-voting-2020-8?r=US&IR=T*




*Riddle.*

Q.  How do we know  when The Don is Telling the Truth ?
W.  When he is boasting in public about how corrupt he is ..


----------



## wayneL

Postal voting is subject to fraud baz, end of story. Trump is absolutely correct in this.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Postal voting is subject to fraud baz, end of story. Trump is absolutely correct in this.




You and The Don don't have  strong relation with the truth or reality do you Wayne ?
The only reason to undermine the postal voting in the US is to save Trumps sorry ass. 

*US election: Do postal ballots lead to voting fraud?*
By Reality Check team

...There have been isolated cases of postal ballot fraud in the past, such as in the 2018 North Carolina primary, which was re-run after a consultant of the Republican candidate tampered with voting papers.

There was also a case earlier this year in New Jersey which saw two Democratic councillors charged with alleged fraud in relation to postal voting, after hundreds of ballots were found stuffed in a post box.

But these are rare incidents, and the rate of voting fraud overall in the US is between 0.00004% and 0.0009%, according to a 2017 study by the Brennan Center for Justice.

A voter fraud database collated by Arizona State University between 2000 and 2012, found 491 cases of postal ballot fraud out of hundreds of millions of votes.

And a Washington Post review of the 2016 election found one proven case of postal voting fraud.

Oregon has held postal elections since 2000 and has only reported 14 fraudulent votes attempted by mail.

There are provisions in place to prevent people from impersonating voters or stealing ballots - such as authorities checking that ballots have come from voters' registered address and requiring signatures on envelopes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53353404

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_voting_in_the_United_States


----------



## wayneL

So why do you think it would save Trump's "sorry ass"?


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> So why do you think it would save Trump's "sorry ass"?



The same reason Trump and the Republicians have repeatedly said. *More voters will support Biden than Trump. So lets make it is as difficult as possible for (the wrong voters )to vote.*

But speaking about mail in voter fraud consider this.

*Trump tried to vote with wrong address while railing against voter fraud*

Records reviewed by the Post found the president had to resubmit his application, despite railing against the vote by mail process

Donald Trump has been railing against vote by mail for the past few months – falsely citing the potential for voter fraud, which is extremely rare. As it turns out, the president himself bungled the system.

Trump registered to vote in Florida last September under his White House address – 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, according to the Washington Post. But Florida does not allow people to register to vote without an in-state address, and one month later, Trump resubmitted his application with a Florida address and voted in the Republican primary.

On his registration form, Trump told Florida officials his legal residence was in Washington DC but on another day also said he was a “bona fide resident” of Palm Beach, Florida, home to his Mar-a-Lago Club, according to the public records reviewed by the Post.

*Other voters have faced significant consequences for the same mistake. In fact, as some Democrats pointed out, the same issue is listed on White House website as voter fraud.*







https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/03/donald-trump-vote-by-mail-fraud-florida


----------



## wayneL

Maybe you can explain to me why more mail in voters would support Biden than Trump as opposed to walk-in voters?


----------



## satanoperca

wayneL said:


> Postal voting is subject to fraud baz, end of story. Trump is absolutely correct in this.




Wayne, I am confused by this statement, can you provide some clarity to it. Here are my thoughts, which might assist in the discussion.

Postal Votes: can they be exploited or manipulated - YES
Does the US election need postal votes - YES at the moment due to the so called virus

So if the US and the people who support/nurture/create a good democracy cannot create a system (postal voting) that has a reasonable level of accuracy (lets say 5% of the votes are bull--****), a country that has created incredible tech that we all use, that has kept the relative of world peace (again depends on which country you live in), cannot build a system that is honest and transparent (within a normal tolerance of acceptability), what chance has the rest of the world in delivering a democratic system that is fair to all.

Or, Wayne, I ask you this. If postal voting is subject to fraud, what system would you enact to all the citizens of the USA to vote for their next president?


----------



## wayneL

satanoperca said:


> Wayne, I am confused by this statement, can you provide some clarity to it. Here are my thoughts, which might assist in the discussion.
> 
> Postal Votes: can they be exploited or manipulated - YES
> Does the US election need postal votes - YES at the moment due to the so called virus
> 
> So if the US and the people who support/nurture/create a good democracy cannot create a system (postal voting) that has a reasonable level of accuracy (lets say 5% of the votes are bull--****), a country that has created incredible tech that we all use, that has kept the relative of world peace (again depends on which country you live in), cannot build a system that is honest and transparent (within a normal tolerance of acceptability), what chance has the rest of the world in delivering a democratic system that is fair to all.
> 
> Or, Wayne, I ask you this. If postal voting is subject to fraud, what system would you enact to all the citizens of the USA to vote for their next president?



If they can employ technology to make verification possible, then I don't see a problem. My reading says that that is not actually being done however.

I would still like to know how it is that mailing photos would favour Biden, why is that so?

Additionally regarding the Covid situation, we were compelled to vote in the Queensland council elections; mandatory under penalty of fine. They didn't seem to have too much problem with that.

The authorities have come out in the last couple of days and stated that so long as there were precautions in place that they didn't see a problem with voting in person.

Admittedly I'm not 100% across all the technical aspects of all this in the US. But the concern does seem to be voter fraud.

And I do repeat my query, why would mail in favour Biden,?


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Maybe you can explain to me why more mail in voters would support Biden than Trump as opposed to walk-in voters?




One reason is that voting is held on a weekday, which generally means that the voter needs to get time off work to vote. A majority of those who would find it difficult to get off work are in lower paid labour intensive jobs and they tend to vote democrat. Also many are in paid by the hour jobs, so even if they could get off work, they probably cannot afford to. Additionally, even if one could vote outside normal working hours, again many of those who vote Democrat are working 2 if not 3 jobs to make ends meet, so they don't have an "outside working hours" period during voting time.

A second reason that ties in with the above is that in GOP held electoral areas it is not uncommon for the number of polling booths and the number of desks within those booths to be far less in those pockets of the electorate with known high Democrat turnout. This means there will be long queues for those who want to vote in person, again making it difficult for those who only have a short outside work periods to vote. Of particular importance this year is that with COVID-19, the last place people want to be standing for several hours in is in long queues. It is much safer to vote by mail.

Trump know this, so that is why he expects a lot more Democrat voters to vote by mail.


----------



## satanoperca

wayneL said:


> I would still like to know how it is that mailing photos would favour Biden, why is that so?
> And I do repeat my query, why would mail in favour Biden,?



Edited Waynes post.

The answer is NO, how can it preference one candidate more than another?


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> One reason is that voting is held on a weekday, which generally means that the voter needs to get time off work to vote. A majority of those who would find it difficult to get off work are in lower paid labour intensive jobs and they tend to vote democrat. Also many are in paid by the hour jobs, so even if they could get off work, they probably cannot afford to. Additionally, even if one could vote outside normal working hours, again many of those who vote Democrat are working 2 if not 3 jobs to make ends meet, so they don't have an "outside working hours" period during voting time.
> 
> A second reason that ties in with the above is that in GOP held electoral areas it is not uncommon for the number of polling booths and the number of desks within those booths to be far less in those pockets of the electorate with known high Democrat turnout. This means there will be long queues for those who want to vote in person, again making it difficult for those who only have a short outside work periods to vote. Of particular importance this year is that with COVID-19, the last place people want to be standing for several hours in is in long queues. It is much safer to vote by mail.
> 
> Trump know this, so that is why he expects a lot more Democrat voters to vote by mail.



All those people are unemployed at the minute mate. It wouldn't take much to take a break from Warcraft or Robinhood, or maybe one less bong for the day, to go and vote.

A case could be made that the individualistic republican voters, in other words  the self employed, will likely have less time to vote on a weekday, I know I would.

IOW, a case could equally be made that the opposite is true.


----------



## satanoperca

wayneL said:


> IOW, a case could equally be made that the opposite is true.




I love this statement, a positive, negative, false positive, positive, positive positive negative and somewhere in between.


----------



## IFocus

Note, Trump has used mail in voting himself..........


----------



## IFocus

Trump supporters

An Analysis of Trump Supporters Has Identified 5 Key Traits
A new report sheds light on the psychological basis for Trump's support.

1.     Authoritarian Personality Syndrome
2.     Social dominance orientation
3.     Prejudice
4.     Intergroup contact
5.     Relative deprivation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...supporters-has-identified-5-key-traits?page=1


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Trump supporters
> 
> An Analysis of Trump Supporters Has Identified 5 Key Traits
> A new report sheds light on the psychological basis for Trump's support.
> 
> 1.     Authoritarian Personality Syndrome
> 2.     Social dominance orientation
> 3.     Prejudice
> 4.     Intergroup contact
> 5.     Relative deprivation
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...supporters-has-identified-5-key-traits?page=1



OMG

LMFAO

That's Democommies bro, not Trump supporters.

That is hilarious


----------



## satanoperca

IFocus said:


> Trump supporters
> 
> An Analysis of Trump Supporters Has Identified 5 Key Traits
> A new report sheds light on the psychological basis for Trump's support.
> 
> 1.     Authoritarian Personality Syndrome
> 2.     Social dominance orientation
> 3.     Prejudice
> 4.     Intergroup contact
> 5.     Relative deprivation
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...supporters-has-identified-5-key-traits?page=1




Which one are you?

I am curious, they are sound sort of interesting, but find it fascinating that someone has taken the time and energy to try and define groups of people.

I think I might be 5. Relative deprivation, I hate white people.


----------



## IFocus

satanoperca said:


> Which one are you?
> 
> I am curious, they are sound sort of interesting, but find it fascinating that someone has taken the time and energy to try and define groups of people.
> 
> I think I might be 5. Relative deprivation, I hate white people.




Not sure, self diagnosis is fraught with danger.

Just threw it up there, any objective defence of Trump after he has openly stated he intends to stop votes from the other side using a false pretence, a method he has used himself deserves long scrutiny IMHO.

How did the US get to this point with Trump is beyond extraordinary.

I do wonder should Trump lose the election if Biden would feel Trump got away with it so its open slather to hell with the rules, Constitution, accepted precedent etc.


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> I do wonder should Trump lose the election if Biden would feel Trump got away with it so its open slather to hell with the rules, Constitution, accepted precedent etc.




No that would be counter productive. Far better to bring to light all the misdemeanours Trump has done in office and the fact that the GOP turned a blind eye. Trump will face a lot of charges, some of them criminal, and will have little sympathy from the public (perhaps except from the blindest and dumbest of his supporters) if it is seen that he has lied to the American people constantly throughout his term. There is a good chance that with all the exposure, the GOP will be consigned to the sewer to which they rightly belong for a long time. Just doing what Trump has done would lose that once in a lifetime opportunity.


----------



## Lucky777

Not sure if this has been posted but postal elections are not a good option in USA


----------



## Knobby22

bellenuit said:


> No that would be counter productive. Far better to bring to light all the misdemeanours Trump has done in office and the fact that the GOP turned a blind eye. Trump will face a lot of charges, some of them criminal, and will have little sympathy from the public (perhaps except from the blindest and dumbest of his supporters) if it is seen that he has lied to the American people constantly throughout his term. There is a good chance that with all the exposure, the GOP will be consigned to the sewer to which they rightly belong for a long time. Just doing what Trump has done would lose that once in a lifetime opportunity.



I read a very good article, I should find and post it, about the GOP wanting Trump to lose. Obviously they want to retain the Senate so they can block any reforms but they don't want Trump being reelected.


----------



## Smurf1976

To answer the question of the thread title - down the drain.

Literally down the drain.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...r-complaining-about-flow-20200813-p55l6k.html


----------



## Knobby22

Lol. Might win him a few votes for those of us with thick hair.


----------



## dutchie

Trump should get the Nobel peace prize for the historic Israel and UAE deal.


----------



## SirRumpole

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rother-of-president-donald-trump-dies-aged-71



> Donald Trump’s younger brother, Robert Trump, died on Saturday night aged 71 after being hospitalised in New York, the president said in a statement.
> 
> The president on Friday visited his brother in hospital after White House officials said Robert had become seriously ill. *Officials did not immediately release a cause of death.
> *



*
*
Anyone else thinking that maybe covid got him and it's being supressed for political reasons ?


----------



## wayneL

dutchie said:


> Trump should get the Nobel peace prize for the historic Israel and UAE deal.



He is the wrong colour.


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rother-of-president-donald-trump-dies-aged-71
> 
> *
> *
> Anyone else thinking that maybe covid got him and it's being supressed for political reasons ?



It took a few months and there seems to be complications and he was in his 70s so you would have to rate it a possibility.

Really sad. No one wants to lose their brother and Donald has now lost two. I am sure he is feeling the loss as the rest of the family. A nice guy from all accounts.


----------



## satanoperca

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rother-of-president-donald-trump-dies-aged-71
> 
> Anyone else thinking that maybe covid got him and it's being supressed for political reasons ?




Or maybe old age, there are 100's of reasons why people die over the age of 70.

Even if he got Covid, was it years of eating cream pies, or fatty foods, or lack of exercise, or agenetic disposition to heart disease, or maybe cancer from overexposure to chemicals, or simply his body could not take one more hit, maybe to many hits of whiskey.


----------



## basilio

The Trump Perspective.

* Trump calls out New Zealand’s 'terrible' Covid surge, on day it records nine new cases *
US president’s discordant comments fail to reflect that 22 people have died from coronavirus in New Zealand, versus 170,000 in US

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-big-surge-on-day-it-records-nine-covid-cases


----------



## basilio




----------



## basilio

Too good.
Straight from the Komrades  ..


----------



## basilio

Insight into Trump from former  Homeland Security official Miles Taylor


----------



## IFocus

You cannot make this stuff up

*US Senate report goes beyond Mueller to lay bare Trump campaign's Russia links*
*Bipartisan intelligence panel *says that Russian who worked on Trump’s 2016 bid was career spy, amid a stunning range of contacts


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/18/donald-trump-us-senate-report-russia-campaign


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> You cannot make this stuff up
> 
> *US Senate report goes beyond Mueller to lay bare Trump campaign's Russia links*
> *Bipartisan intelligence panel *says that Russian who worked on Trump’s 2016 bid was career spy, amid a stunning range of contacts
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/18/donald-trump-us-senate-report-russia-campaign



You can absolutely make this stuff up because that's what was done. Democrats, media, and dumbstruck banded together to create the biggest hoax that subsequently fell apart the more you picked at it. 

Good movie coming out though. Guy who directed it is a right anarchist (hates government). Smart guy.


----------



## dutchie

Democrats so corrupt.


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> Democrats so corrupt.



Really, any more than Republicans?

Can you elaborate?


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> Really, any more than Republicans?
> 
> Can you elaborate?



Russia conspiracy.


----------



## satanoperca

That is it, that is all you have.

So lets just diagnose your statement, a stack of people who side with the beliefs of the Democrats are all corrupt because of a conspiracy.

The world is f--kd.


----------



## macca

satanoperca said:


> That is it, that is all you have.
> 
> So lets just diagnose your statement, a stack of people who side with the beliefs of the Democrats are all corrupt because of a conspiracy.
> 
> The world is f--kd.




And China is laughing at all of us


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> You can absolutely make this stuff up because that's what was done. Democrats, media, and dumbstruck banded together to create the biggest hoax that subsequently fell apart the more you picked at it.
> 
> Good movie coming out though. Guy who directed it is a right anarchist (hates government). Smart guy.





Nope that enquiry was bipartisan and the findings damming.


----------



## satanoperca

macca said:


> And China is laughing at all of us




How brilliant was the plan?

It is extraordinary, so well implemented, my hat is off to the CCP.

So simple, ingenious, brilliant and 95% effective than any other weapon/method to undermine and destroy democracy.

Not even the Don, could have been so effective in creating divisiveness in a functioning society that for all parts is far for all those that contribute.


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> Nope that enquiry was bipartisan and the findings damming.




Absolutely. There were Republicans and Democrats on the enquiry. 

What I haven't heard was whether there were any dissenting voices on the outcome. Do you know if it split along party lines or were the Republicans in agreement with the decision. The latter would be a big blow to Trump.


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> Absolutely. There were Republicans and Democrats on the enquiry.
> 
> What I haven't heard was whether there were any dissenting voices on the outcome. Do you know if it split along party lines or were the Republicans in agreement with the decision. The latter would be a big blow to Trump.




The Committee was lead by a Republican and gave a unanimous finding.

*Republican-Led Review Backs Intelligence Findings on Russian Interference*
A new Senate report undercuts claims by President Trump and his allies that Obama-era officials sought to undermine him while investigating Russia’s 2016 election meddling.

WASHINGTON — For years, President Trump has derided the assessment by American intelligence officials that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election to assist his candidacy, dismissing it without evidence as the work of a “deep state” out to undermine his victory.

But on Tuesday, a long-awaited Senate review led by members of Mr. Trump’s own party effectively undercut those allegations. *A three-year review by the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously found that the intelligence community assessment, pinning blame on Russia and outlining its goals to undercut American democracy, was fundamentally sound and untainted by politics.*

“The I.C.A. reflects strong tradecraft, sound analytical reasoning and proper justification of disagreement in the one analytical line where it occurred,” said Senator Richard M. Burr, Republican of North Carolina and the panel’s chairman. “The committee found no reason to dispute the intelligence community’s conclusions.”

The endorsement by Mr. Burr’s committee comes at a key moment for the intelligence agencies. Not only has Mr. Trump moved in recent months to install a loyalist in the top spy position, but Attorney General William P. Barr has also blessed a broad review of possible misconduct by investigators examining the Trump campaign’s contacts with Russia, apparently including work by intelligence officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/russian-interference-senate-intelligence-report.html

Russian election interference, John H. Durham, is examining whether the C.I.A. or other intelligence agencies overstated President Vladimir V. Putin’s support of the Trump campaign, a central finding of the 2017 assessment. His team has interviewed intelligence analysts, questioning whether Obama-era intelligence officials hid evidence or manipulated analysis about Moscow’s covert operation, people familiar with the Durham inquiry have said.


----------



## moXJO

so we are ignoring the fact the fbi lied with all the evidence that has come out.


----------



## moXJO

One of the most glaringly bogus Trump-Russia stories by The New York Times in 2017 was picked apart inside the FBI at the time as containing over a dozen major inaccuracies, a newly disclosed document shows.

Declassified by the Justice Department, the document contains the Times story that reported there were extensive contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence. The document also contains a typewritten critique in the margins by FBI Agent Peter Strzok, who totally rejected the Times’ claim.




“Again, we are unaware of ANY Trump advisors engaging in conversations with Russian intelligence officials,” Mr. Strzok wrote.

Since fired by the bureau, Mr. Strzok then led the Crossfire Hurricane unit investigating the Trump campaign.

On Feb. 14, 2017, at the height of conspiracy theories about President Trump and the Kremlin, The New York Times published a three-byline sensation: “Trump Campaign Aides Had Repeated Contacts with Russian Intelligence,” the headline proclaimed.
The first paragraph read, “Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials.”


The story stood as proof of Trump-Russia collusion except it was flatly wrong. There were no such year’s worth of intercepts or phone records.

Then-FBI Director James B. Comey read the story and quickly, and privately, alerted congressional leaders about the falsity. In June 2017, after being fired by Mr. Trump and testifying before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Committee, Mr. Comey told the world the story was false.


Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, released the Strzok document on Friday.

The Times story was a one-two punch at the White House. It came a month after BuzzFeed published the notorious Democratic-funded dossier widely accepted by the press, which erroneously said Mr. Trump was in a far-reaching election conspiracy with Moscow and included numerous salacious details.

“The comments of Peter Strzok regarding the February 14 New York Times article are devastating in that they are an admission that there was no reliable evidence that anyone from the Trump Campaign was working with Russian Intelligence Agencies in any form,” Mr. Graham said.

The senator added, “The statements by Mr. Strzok question the entire premise of the FBI’s investigation of the Trump Campaign and make it even more outrageous that the Mueller team continued this investigation for almost two and a half years. Moreover, the statements by Strzok raise troubling questions as to whether the FBI was impermissibly unmasking and analyzing intelligence gathered on U.S. persons.”

Appointed in May 2017, special counsel Robert Mueller filed a report in March 2019 that said his team found no Trump-Russia election conspiracy.

Mr. Strzok, who was fired for his anti-Trump texts, wrote 15 Times story comments, including:

On the lead paragraph, “This statement is misleading and inaccurate as written. We have not seen evidence of any individuals affiliated with the Trump team in contact with IOs [intelligence officers].”

On the second paragraph, which said U.S. intelligence began collecting Trump-Russia intercepts in the spring, “We do not know nor can we figure out what this means or where it might be coming from (i.e. something we can identify as a source of misunderstanding.)”

On the paragraph that said former campaign manager Paul Manafort was picked up on calls to Russian intelligence, “We are unaware of any calls with any Russian government official in which Manafort was a party.”

On the story saying FBI has banking records, “We do not yet have detailed banking records.”

On they story saying in subsequent paragraphs there were lots of contacts, “Again, we are unaware of ANY Trump advisors engaging in conversations with Russian intelligence officials.”

On The New York Times assertion that the National Security Agency intercepted Russian-Trump aides calls, “If they did we are not aware of those communications.”

Mr. Comey checked with NSA after he read the story and was told there were no such intercepts.

On the story’s assertions that Trump adviser Roger Stone was under investigation at the time, “We have not investigated Roger Stone.”

On the story’s assertion that Christopher Steele, creator of the anti-Trump dossier, was reliable, “Recent interviews and investigation, however, reveal Steele may not be in a position to judge the reliability of his sub-source network.”

By then, the FBI had interviewed Mr. Steele’s main source, who said he fed Kremlin gossip to the British ex-spy and had no idea he was writing a report.

But that’s not the end of the story of the FBI’s skepticism.

According to then-White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, then-FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe approached him and volunteered to the president’s top aide that the just-published New York Times story was bunk.

Mr. Priebus asked if he could say that publicly. Later, the FBI told him he could not. The next thing Mr. Priebus knew, CNN was reporting he some how intervened with the FBI to get it to say something that was false. This never happened, he said. He always wondered if the bureau set him up.


----------



## moXJO

Hard to copy and past that article for some reason. Anyway the NY times was caught out lying before. This is the mob that pushed out the conservatives and have since devolved into muckraking.


----------



## moXJO

Bas article above is about Russian Interference. Not collusion. Let's make that very clear.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> That is it, that is all you have.
> 
> So lets just diagnose your statement, a stack of people who side with the beliefs of the Democrats are all corrupt because of a conspiracy.
> 
> The world is f--kd.



Its a pretty big list. Even if you just start at Hillary.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Hard to copy and past that article for some reason. Anyway the NY times was caught out lying before. This is the mob that pushed out the conservatives and have since devolved into muckraking.




Mo the media can print what they like but the senate findings have fingered Trump and his enablers acting with Russia to influence the election BTW none of this is new.

If you want to gripe about the FBI try the opening of a case against Clinton and the email fiasco days out from the election then saying we wont take any further action.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Mo the media can print what they like but the senate findings have fingered Trump and his enablers acting with Russia to influence the election BTW none of this is new.
> 
> If you want to gripe about the FBI try the opening of a case against Clinton and the email fiasco days out from the election then saying we wont take any further action.



Did you understand what you read?

There was no collusion even in that hack job by the Guardian.

The conclusion of the report:



> After more than three years of investigation by this Committee, *we can now say with no doubt, there was no collusion,*” a group of six panel Republicans, including Rubio, wrote in a statement that instead accused the Democratic Party of coordinating with foreign actors to produce Steele’s dossier.
> 
> The FBI’s conduct remains under investigation by Connecticut U.S. Attorney John Durham, who was tapped by Barr to explore the origins of the Russia probe.
> 
> A former FBI lawyer is expected to plead guilty Wednesday to falsifying a document in the Russia case. Durham is also likely to interview former CIA director John Brennan on Friday, according to a person familiar with the investigation who spoke on the condition of anonymity.



Republican 



> Five Democratic senators — including Kamala D. Harris (Calif.), the party’s 2020 vice-presidential nominee — asserted that the report “unambiguously shows that members of the Trump Campaign cooperated with Russian efforts to get Trump elected.” Referring specifically to their findings on Manafort, the Democrats wrote, “This is what collusion looks like.”
> 
> 
> Warner, the ranking Democrat on the panel, did not sign onto the Democrats’ dissent but noted “a breathtaking level of contacts between Trump officials and Russian government operatives that is a very real counterintelligence threat to our elections.”




Democrat


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> Mo the media can print what they like




The best and most accurate statement made in this matter.
The media do print what they like whether it is true or not.
Most sane people realise that as far as Trump is concerned it is 100% (sorry I exaggerate ,  it's only 99.99%) lies.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> The best and most accurate statement made in this matter.
> The media do print what they like whether it is true or not.
> Most sane people realise that as far as Trump is concerned it is 100% (sorry I exaggerate ,  it's only 99.99%) lies.




Maybe Dutchie but the media are not in Trumps league when it comes to lies.


----------



## sptrawler

Sounds as though the China/U.S trade talks are off for the moment, probably a good idea to wait untill after the election, no point in organising something that may be overturned in a couple of months.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> Maybe Dutchie but the media are not in Trumps league when it comes to lies.



So, the liars, are telling you that Trump is lying.............hmmm.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though the China/U.S trade talks are off for the moment, probably a good idea to wait untill after the election, no point in organising something that may be overturned in a couple of months.



Also China completely reneged on the previous deal.


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> So, the liars, are telling you that Trump is lying.............hmmm.



So the liars are telling you that the liars are telling you that Trump is lying. Hmmm.


----------



## wayneL

What I find super interesting is considering the root word being identical, liars and lying having such incongruent spelling 

Truth is subjective, as are lies.

True lies?


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Also China completely reneged on the previous deal.



Did they? it will be interesting to see what happens, at least the China issue has been re enforced with the advent of the virus.
It certainly has shown how dependent, we and many other countries are on China's good will.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> True lies?



How about "alternative facts"  ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> How about "alternative facts"  ?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts



I was involved in a very minor collision in a parking lot in recent months. Didn't take very long to figure out that there were alternative facts involved.

As the other party was obviously trying to preserve his no claim bonus some true lies were told.

In a strange twist I have been forced to instruct the other party's lawyers on standards of evidence, IOW heresay doesn't count.

I hope you understand the allegory, Komrade.


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> So the liars are telling you that the liars are telling you that Trump is lying. Hmmm.



Absolutely.
So *everyone* is lying. No argument.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> In a strange twist I have been forced to instruct the other party's lawyers on standards of evidence, IOW heresay doesn't count.
> 
> I hope you understand the allegory, Komrade.




Problem is Wayne  "Alternative facts" was brought into the vernacular by Kellyanne Conway when she was trying to defend Sean Spicers demonstrably false statement that Donald Trumps inauguration was the "largest ever inauguration" in US history.

So "alternative facts" stand for defending a provable lie. Provable is the operative word of course.

"*Alternative facts*" was a phrase used by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway during a _Meet the Press_ interview on January 22, 2017, in which she defended White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's false statement about the attendance numbers of Donald Trump's inauguration as President of the United States. When pressed during the interview with Chuck Todd to explain why Spicer would "utter a provable falsehood", Conway stated that Spicer was giving "alternative facts". Todd responded, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."[1]


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> What I find super interesting is considering the root word being identical, liars and lying having such incongruent spelling
> 
> Truth is subjective, as are lies.
> 
> True lies?




Always admire anyone that has the full understanding of the vagaries of the English language such as my long suffering wife.
I know when I read what looks right yet hopeless generally when constructing and always happy when corrected


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> Absolutely.
> So *everyone* is lying. No argument.




Don't need the media's opinion  I always know when Trump is telling lies......his lips are moving


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Problem is Wayne  "Alternative facts" was brought into the vernacular by Kellyanne Conway when she was trying to defend Sean Spicers demonstrably false statement that Donald Trumps inauguration was the "largest ever inauguration" in US history.
> 
> So "alternative facts" stand for defending a provable lie. Provable is the operative word of course.
> 
> "*Alternative facts*" was a phrase used by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway during a _Meet the Press_ interview on January 22, 2017, in which she defended White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's false statement about the attendance numbers of Donald Trump's inauguration as President of the United States. When pressed during the interview with Chuck Todd to explain why Spicer would "utter a provable falsehood", Conway stated that Spicer was giving "alternative facts". Todd responded, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."[1]



Oh bas!

Surely you cannot be that naive, Komrade?

Surely you understand allegory?

Surely if you are not that naive, surely you do not think that the rest of us are that stupid?

I understand the Komrades are that stupid to embrace an ideology that has proven to be an absolute failure over the last century and a bit. I understand that that may have jaundiced to your thinking.

But please understand, the rest of us are not as mentally challenged.

If you're blind to the alternative facts of your own poisonous subculture of murderous wet dreamers and trotskyites, that renders you a propagandist or an bloody idiot.

You choose, Komrade.


----------



## ghotib

wayneL said:


> IOW *heresay* doesn't count.



Well... No.


----------



## wayneL

ghotib said:


> Well... No.



I beg your pardon... *hearsay*

Correct spelling does matter.


----------



## wayneL

ghotib said:


> Well... No.



And I would encourage you to review your punctuation here


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> Don't need the media's opinion  I always know when Trump is telling lies......his lips are moving



I always know when IFocus is lying..... he is typing .


----------



## dutchie

'Trump Might Not Accept The Results Of The 2020 Election,' Says Movement That Still Hasn't Accepted Results Of 2016 Election

U.S.—Leftists are warning that President Donald Trump might not accept the results of the 2020 election.

These same leftists have spent the last four years declaring that Trump is not their president, that Hillary Clinton actually won because she won the popular vote, and that Trump only won because of Russian interference.

"It would absolutely destroy our democracy if Trump were to decide he won't accept the results of the election," said one woman in Seattle wearing a "Hillary Is My President" T-shirt. "We can't continue to exist as a society if people don't accept the basic rules governing a peaceful transfer of power."

"Also, Trump stole the election and is not my president." She then faced Washington for her evening screaming at the sky, a ritual she performs five times a day.


----------



## basilio

This isn't a parody. This is the Prez speaking.
*Trump tacitly endorses baseless QAnon conspiracy theory linked to violence*
President says followers of movement, which claims Trump is fighting ‘deep state’ paedophiles, ‘love our country’

Donald Trump has tacitly endorsed QAnon, a baseless rightwing conspiracy theory identified as a potential domestic terrorism threat by the FBI, claiming its followers “love our country” and “like me very much”.

Followers of the QAnon movement believe without evidence that Trump is fighting a Satanic “deep state” of global elites involved in paedophilia, human trafficking and the harvesting of a supposedly life-extending chemical from the blood of abused children.

Yet asked about the theory at Wednesday’s White House press briefing, the US president failed to condemn it. “I don’t know much about the movement other than I understand they like me very much, which I appreciate,” he said. “I have heard that it is gaining in popularity.”

....Trump’s comments also earned fierce condemnation. Tommy Vietor, a former spokesman for Barack Obama’s national security council, tweeted: “This QAnon answer is a ******* disgrace. It’s a death cult. *The FBI identified QAnon as a violent domestic terrorism threat and Trump is pretending not to *know what it is while absolutely encouraging them and incentivizing more insane behavior.”

QAnon was identified as a potential domestic terrorism threat by the FBI last year and has been linked to numerous attempted acts of violence. Yet last week Trump praised Marjorie Taylor Greene, a supporter of QAnon who won the Republican nomination in Georgia’s 14th congressional district, describing her as a “future Republican Star”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/19/trump-qanon-praise-conspiracy-theory-believers


----------



## bellenuit

*Steve Bannon Is Charged With Fraud in ‘Build the Wall Campaign’*

Stephen Bannon, President Trump’s former top campaign aide, was charged on Thursday in New York with fraud for his role in a scheme related to “We Build the Wall,” an online fundraising effort that collected more than $25 million, officials said.

Mr. Bannon and three other defendants “defrauded hundreds of thousands of donors, capitalizing on their interest in funding a border wall to raise millions of dollars, under the false pretense that all of that money would be spent on construction,” said the acting United States attorney in Manhattan, Audrey Strauss.


----------



## bellenuit

Rick Gates: Convicted. 
Paul Manafort: Convicted. 
George Papadopoulos: Convicted. 
Mike Flynn: Convicted. 
Michael Cohen: Convicted. 
Roger Stone: Convicted. 
Steve Bannon: Arrested. 
Donald Trump: Impeached.


----------



## orr

bellenuit said:


> Rick Gates: Convicted.
> Paul Manafort: Convicted.
> George Papadopoulos: Convicted.
> Mike Flynn: Convicted.
> Michael Cohen: Convicted.
> Roger Stone: Convicted.
> Steve Bannon: Arrested.
> Donald Trump: Impeached.



And Best wishes to Ghislaine Maxwell  xxx..


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> Donald Trump: Impeached.




Trump was never impeached.

Actually Trump was convicted by the rabid left before he was even inaugurated.

Unfortunately for the rabid left nothing has come from their lying and he is still the President.

Suck it up rabid lefties, for another four years!


----------



## basilio

*Trump's Presidency crystallized *

Obama said he had hoped Trump would "show some interest in taking the job seriously."

"But he never did. He’s shown no interest in putting in the work, no interest in finding common ground, no interest in using the awesome power of his office to help anyone but himself and his friends, no interest in treating the presidency as anything but one more reality show that he can use to get the attention he craves," Obama said.

*"Donald Trump hasn’t grown into the job because he can’t."
https://www.dw.com/en/ex-us-president-barack-obama-lays-into-trump-in-dnc-speech/a-54628759*


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> Rick Gates: Convicted.
> Paul Manafort: Convicted.
> George Papadopoulos: Convicted.
> Mike Flynn: Convicted.
> Michael Cohen: Convicted.
> Roger Stone: Convicted.
> Steve Bannon: Arrested.
> Donald Trump: Impeached.




You couldn't make this stuff up, its beyond any script Hollywood could come up with, its in line with the fall of Rome and its debauchery, never happened in US political history before, mean while supporters cheer Trump on, the election really is going to be interesting. 
I really think if Trump gets up Australia will be very exposed with China.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> I really think if Trump gets up Australia will be very exposed with China.



Yes, China will have us for dinner.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> I really think if Trump gets up Australia will be very exposed with China.



True.
However it could be even worse with Biden with the aggressive Harris calling the shots.


----------



## bellenuit

dutchie said:


> Trump was never impeached




Actually he was.


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, China will have us for dinner.



I think they already have. They are on to the cheese plate and cigars and laughing at us.
More to do with our *short sighted plans* rather than with the US-China relationship.
We have gotten ourselves into a position to be too reliant on China.


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> Actually he was.



So was I, but I am still posting.


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> I think they already have. They are on to the cheese plate and cigars and laughing at us.
> More to do with our *short sighted plans* rather than with the US-China relationship.
> We have gotten ourselves into a position to be too reliant on China.



We can fight back if the world works together.


----------



## basilio

*I think I can hear the Don screaming clear across the Pacific .*

Chris Wallace and Laura Ingram from Fox praised Joe Bidens Nomination speech. 








https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...atest-2020-democratic-convention-news-updates


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> Actually he was.



Forever damaging the credibility of the impeachment process, just like Obama's Nobel prize. 

The Nobel peace prize no longer means a jot, and impeachment is meaningless.


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> The Nobel peace prize no longer means a jot, and impeachment is meaningless.




Yes, I agree to the former. Too politicised and Obama did not deserve it so early in his term. The latter I disagree with. Impeachment isn't meaningless. It is just that the GOP couldn't care less.


----------



## basilio

One of the critical failures of the Trump Presidency has been the destruction of US diplomatic influence around the world.  That has been crystallized in the recent efforts by the US to "snapback" sanctions on Iran despite them unilaterally pulling out of the deal over two years ago .

*Iran sanctions: nearly all UN security council unites against 'unpleasant' US*
Letters from 13 of 15 members underscore US isolation as it seeks to ‘snap back’ measures against Tehran

The extent of US isolation at the UN has been driven home by formal letters from 13 of the 15 security council members opposing Trump administration attempts to extend the economic embargo on Iran.

The letters by the council members were all issued in the 24 hours since the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, came to the UN’s New York headquarters to declare Iran in non-compliance with a 2015 nuclear deal.

Under that deal (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA), comprehensive UN sanctions on Iran would be restored 30 days after the declaration. But almost every other council member has issued letters saying that the US has no standing to trigger this sanctions “snapback” because it left the JCPOA in May 2018.

....Diplomats at the UN said the depth of US isolation was in part a reflection of the abrasive style used by Pompeo, who accused Europeans of choosing to “side with the ayatollahs”, and the US ambassador to the UN, Kelly Craft, a political appointee.

“The Americans were actually being over the top in their ridiculousness,” one diplomat said.

“*The underlying point here is that most countries on the security council basically agree with the US that Iran is not a nice country and it having nuclear weapons and more arms is not a good thing,” the diplomat said. “But the Americans misplayed their hand so often, so aggressively, that they isolated themselves from people not on policy, but on just being unpleasant.”*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/21/us-iran-sanctions-un-mike-pompeo


----------



## wayneL

@basilio I really don't know why you are trying to convince all of us that Trump is the devil incarnate...

>>>WE DON'T VOTE IN US ELECTIONS<<<

LMAO, but I do have to admit it is quite comical.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> @basilio I really don't know why you are trying to convince all of us that Trump is the devil incarnate...
> 
> >>>WE DON'T VOTE IN US ELECTIONS<<<
> 
> LMAO, but I do have to admit it is quite comical.




Donald Trump is rewriting global alliances around the world. This affects Australia in terms of our political and economic alliances. It fundamentally changes the balances of economic and political power which then impacts our trade, investment and political behaviour across the globe.

For once.. I wasn't  painting Trump as the devil incarnate. I was pointing out however the massive (negative) impact he has had on American influence internationally.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Donald Trump is rewriting global alliances around the world. This affects Australia in terms of our political and economic alliances. It fundamentally changes the balances of economic and political power which then impacts our trade, investment and political behaviour across the globe.
> 
> For once.. I wasn't  painting Trump as the devil incarnate. I was pointing out however the massive (negative) impact he has had on American influence internationally.




Very true, he's downgraded the idea of international cooperation and turned the world into a dog eat dog mess.

I think Biden will try and repair that situation. Any US President looks after his own people first, that's his job, but at least Biden may give more than a moments thought to the rest of the world.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Very true, he's downgraded the idea of international cooperation and turned the world into a dog eat dog mess.
> 
> I think Biden will try and repair that situation. Any US President looks after his own people first, that's his job, but at least Biden may give more than a moments thought to the rest of the world.



Biden has been captured by the Marxist left, as has Kamala. In the sense that he will further the agenda of those of the world economic forum, technically you are correct.

But is that for the greater benefit of the American people or indeed the rest of us?

I think not, not in any sense whatsoever. whoever wins this election there will be a much greater level of internal strife it will just be a matter of which side is more incensed. The real difference will be that the left will be operating on a delusion that marxism offers any sort of improvement of this situation, what is the centre and the right, while mostly not 100% cognizant of the real issue in America, are not operating under that same delusion.

And @basilio, be that as it may we still do not have any influence on that, thereforei would be more beneficial for you to present a less ideologically biased narrative.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> Biden has been captured by the Marxist left, as has Kamala. In the sense that he will further the agenda of those of the world economic forum, technically you are correct.
> 
> But is that for the greater benefit of the American people or indeed the rest of us?
> 
> I think not, not in any sense whatsoever. whoever wins this election there will be a much greater level of internal strife it will just be a matter of which side is more incensed. The real difference will be that the left will be operating on a delusion that marxism offers any sort of improvement of this situation, what is the centre and the right, what mostly not 100% cognizant of the real issue in America, are not operating under that same delusion.
> 
> And @basilio, be that as it may we still do not have any influence on that, thereforei would be more beneficial for you to present a less ideologically biased narrative.




Biden won the nomination because he was more moderate than Bernie. As I said before I don't think he is going enough for the middle aspirational ground which must feel very deprived considering that Trump is pretty far right and owes a lot to corporates.

I certainly wouldn't call Biden "Marxist" , that may just be a relative position as seen by some people.


----------



## wayneL

SirRumpole said:


> Biden won the nomination because he was more moderate than Bernie. As I said before I don't think he is going enough for the middle aspirational ground which must feel very deprived considering that Trump is pretty far right and owes a lot to corporates.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't call Biden "Marxist" , that may just be a relative position as seen by some people.



No, not Marxist himself, I agree. But I said "captured" by the Marxist left.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Biden has been captured by the Marxist left, as has Kamala




Indeed Wayne. 

This is your North Star. That the Evil Marxists of the World have captured Biden and Kamala and are bent on turning the US and then the Whole World into a Marxist Commune and/or Gulag.

That's just crackers Wayne. You can choose to believe such nonsense if it floats your boat but do you expect to be taken seriously ? 

Frankly I would have a better  evidence  that the Far Right through the Proud Boys, Q Anon, Bugaloos and a score of other groups  have captured the Republican Party and that through Trump they are intent on establishing a militant racist US. 

Like how many recognised Far Right militant groups are there in the US ? Which groups have all the guns ? 

I don't think it's constructive to run such a line so I won't. But if there is a danger of the US going in a radical political direction all the current evidence points to the Right not the Left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Right-wing_militia_organizations_in_the_United_States


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Indeed Wayne.
> 
> This is your North Star. That the Evil Marxists of the World have captured Biden and Kamala and are bent on turning the US and then the Whole World into a Marxist Commune and/or Gulag.
> 
> That's just crackers Wayne. You can choose to believe such nonsense if it floats your boat but do you expect to be taken seriously ?
> 
> Frankly I would have a better  evidence  that the Far Right through the Proud Boys, Q Anon, Bugaloos and a score of other groups  have captured the Republican Party and that through Trump they are intent on establishing a militant racist US.
> 
> Like how many recognised Far Right militant groups are there in the US ? Which groups have all the guns ?
> 
> I don't think it's constructive to run such a line so I won't. But if there is a danger of the US going in a radical political direction all the current evidence points to the Right not the Left.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Right-wing_militia_organizations_in_the_United_States



The belief that the extreme right has any influence whatsoever, it tilting at windmills bas. The extreme left has captured all of the institutions except the supreme court... the bureaucracy, education, etc. BLM is a prime example of being openly Marxist and having such overt support.

Denial of that is not smart.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> The belief that the extreme right has any influence whatsoever, it tilting at windmills bas. The extreme left has captured all of the institutions except the supreme court... the bureaucracy, education, etc. BLM is a prime example of being openly Marxist and having such overt support.
> 
> Denial of that is not smart.



Honestly, you are acting a bit weird. Or you are deliberately taking the piss to annoy Bas. Calling everyone Komrade and pretending Communism is about to take over the USA if the Democratic Party get in. You are probably for most of their policies from what you post. What do you like about Republican policies?


----------



## wayneL

Knobby22 said:


> Honestly, you are acting a bit weird. Or you are deliberately taking the piss to annoy Bas. Calling everyone Komrade and pretending Communism is about to take over the USA if the Democratic Party get in. You are probably for most of their policies from what you post. What do you like about Republican policies?




Chill, Komrade.

It's all tongue in cheek.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> Chill, Komrade.
> 
> It's all tongue in cheek.




Really ? Truly ? The never ending posts about the imminent tale over of the US by militant Marxists.
The never ending repetition that no matter how bad Trump might be he can be be as awful as Obama/Clinton/Biden were/will be.

I'd love to believe it was largely tongue in cheek that Wayne. I really would. 

But frankly ....


----------



## dutchie

It's all very comical.
I love stirring you Marxists. It's my daily laugh.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> Really ? Truly ? The never ending posts about the imminent tale over of the US by militant Marxists.
> The never ending repetition that no matter how bad Trump might be he can be be as awful as Obama/Clinton/Biden were/will be.
> 
> I'd love to believe it was largely tongue in cheek that Wayne. I really would.
> 
> But frankly ....



That is comical bas... LMFAO

Have you no self awareness?


----------



## bellenuit

They all knew ....


----------



## dutchie

Brilliant Trump Puts Himself On All Postage Stamps, Forcing Democrats To Push For Abolishing USPS
August 17th, 2020






WASHINGTON, D.C.—Sources are reporting that Trump has dealt a killer blow in his ongoing war against his sworn enemy, the U.S. Post Office. In a move of sheer, mind-blowing brilliance, Trump directed the Post Office to put his face on every single stamp, forcing the Democrats to reverse course and abolish the institution once and for all. 


The new stamp, dubbed "The Trump-Stamp," to be used on all pieces of mail features a smiling Donald Trump, with the caption "GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER."


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> Brilliant Trump Puts Himself On All Postage Stamps, Forcing Democrats To Push For Abolishing USPS
> August 17th, 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON, D.C.—Sources are reporting that Trump has dealt a killer blow in his ongoing war against his sworn enemy, the U.S. Post Office. In a move of sheer, mind-blowing brilliance, Trump directed the Post Office to put his face on every single stamp, forcing the Democrats to reverse course and abolish the institution once and for all.
> 
> 
> The new stamp, dubbed "The Trump-Stamp," to be used on all pieces of mail features a smiling Donald Trump, with the caption "GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER."



He would do it if he could![emoji1]


----------



## Macquack

dutchie said:


> It's all very comical.
> I love stirring you Marxists. It's my daily laugh.



I get a laugh from my vision of Wayne as a cowboy,  the Malborough Man on his pony packing a musket and puffing away on a fag dreaming of the good old days in the wild west where any disagreements were settled like a man, with a shoot out.


----------



## SirRumpole

Macquack said:


> I get a laugh from my vision of Wayne as a cowboy,  the Malborough Man on his pony packing a musket and puffing away on a fag dreaming of the good old days in the wild west where any disagreements were settled like a man, with a shoot out.




Interesting imagery. 

Wayne is a good bloke, we don't always agree but he's usually polite.


----------



## Macquack

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting imagery.
> 
> Wayne is a good bloke, we don't always agree but he's usually polite.



Not to Basilio.

Actually, I would love to see a shoot out between Bas and Wayne. Just got to rustle me up some popcorn.


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> Not to Basilio.
> 
> Actually, I would love to see a shoot out between Bas and Wayne. Just got to rustle me up some popcorn.



And of course bas is the epitome of courtesy and manners.

A couple of points

*I don't smoke.
*I don't condone violence, especially gun violence, to settle discussion.
*I would be more likely to shout bas a pint and have a nice chat.

You'd be really bored Macquack.


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> *I would be more likely to shout bas a pint and have a nice chat.




And perhaps we could have a  dispassionate, civilised, *evidence based *chat about The Don ?

Just for some prior reading check out how his sister *Federal Judge Maryanne Trump Barry* sees her brother. 
Possibly some of us have noticed some similar traits ? 
Once, Twice, All the Time ?

(But This Just Can't Be True, Can it ? It has to be* FAKE NEWS !! 
(That record is so cracked)*

-------------------------------------------------------------
*'Donald is cruel': Trump's sister recorded saying president has 'no principles'*
Maryanne Trump Barry, a former federal judge, made the comments to her niece Mary Trump in secretly taped conversations
*
Donald Trump’s older sister, a former federal judge, is heard sharply criticizing her brother in a series of recordings released Saturday, at one point saying of the president: “He has no principles.”*

Maryanne Trump Barry was secretly recorded by her niece, Mary Trump, who recently released a book denouncing the president, Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World’s Most Dangerous Man. Mary Trump said Saturday she made the recordings in 2018 and 2019.

In one recording, Barry, 83, says she had heard a 2018 interview with her brother on Fox News in which he suggested that he would put her on the border to oversee cases of immigrant children separated from their parents.

“His base, I mean my God, if you were a religious person, you want to help people. Not do this,” Barry says.
*At another point she says: “His goddamned tweet and lying, oh my God.” She adds: “I’m talking too freely, but you know. The change of stories. The lack of preparation. The lying. Holy ****.”*

Barry can also be heard saying that she guesses that her brother has never read her opinions on immigration cases.

“What has he read?” Mary Trump asks her aunt. Barry responds: “No. He doesn’t read.”

The recordings were first reported by the Washington Post. The Associated Press then obtained the recordings.

The recordings came to light just a day after the late Robert Trump, brother to Maryanne and the president, was memorialized in a service at the White House. Later, the president was dismissive of the recordings.

“Every day it’s something else, who cares. I miss my brother, and I’ll continue to work hard for the American people,” Trump said in a statement. “Not everyone agrees, but the results are obvious. Our country will soon be stronger than ever before.”

In the weeks since the release of Mary Trump’s tell-all book about her uncle, she has been questioned about the source of some of its information.

Nowhere in the book does she say that she recorded conversations with her aunt. On Saturday, Mary Trump revealed that she had covertly taped 15 hours of face-to-face conversations with Barry.

“Mary realized members of her family had lied in prior depositions,” said Chris Bastardi, a spokesman for Mary Trump. He added: “Anticipating litigation, she felt it prudent to tape conversations in order to protect herself.”

The president has frequently spoken highly of his sister; the recordings are the first time a family member, outside of Mary Trump, has been critical of him.

The recordings illuminate the tension between the president and his sister. At one point Barry says to her niece: “It’s the phoniness of it all. It’s the phoniness and this cruelty. Donald is cruel.”

*Mary Trump’s book was filled with attacks on her uncle, including the assertion – denied by Trump – that he paid someone to take the SATs for him as he sought to transfer into the University of Pennsylvania.

In one recording, the federal judge says that a Joe Shapiro took the test for Trump. The president was friends with a person at Penn named Joe Shapiro, who is deceased. Shapiro’s widow and sister told have said he never took a test for anybody.*

Bastardi said of Mary Trump: “She never expected to learn much of what she heard, including the president’s sister, federal judge Maryanne Trump Barry, state that Donald Trump had paid someone to take an SAT exam for him.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...r-recorded-saying-president-has-no-principles


----------



## wayneL

I'd probably slip some valium into your drink to to calm you the **** down, tbh.


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> Maryanne Trump Barry, a former federal judge, made the comments to her niece Mary Trump in secretly taped conversations




I'm not sure how I'd feel if a trusted family member secretly taped my confidential conversations and then spread them around the media.

Anyone care to comment on the ethics of that ?

Anyway I suppose she could argue that its in the public interest seeing that the subject is the President.


----------



## SirRumpole

wayneL said:


> I'd probably slip some valium into your drink to to calm you the **** down, tbh.




As long as its not Polonium Vladimir.


----------



## basilio

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not sure how I'd feel if a trusted family member secretly taped my confidential conversations and then spread them around the media.
> 
> Anyone care to comment on the ethics of that ?
> 
> Anyway I suppose she could argue that its in the public interest seeing that the subject is the President.




Interesting thought.

I don't believe that is the way it actually happened. Mary Trump, Donalds niece , was pretty xissed off with Donald Trump after the way he had treated her father.  She was the one who has written the book about Donald Trump "* Too much is never enough"* which blows the lid on Donalds whole of life behaviour.

As part of her research on Donald Trump, Mary she had many long conversations (over  15 hours) with Maryanne Trump Donalds older sister. Maryanne has had a distinguished career and is a Federal Judge.

It was these conversations which formed a significant part of her book. Apparently Mary had these conversations some time before she decided to write the book.  She decided to (secretly) record these conversations to

1) Enure she accurately   remembered them in the future
2) Have a permanent public record to provide proof of her statements. Or at least ascribe  a clear source of the information.

Historically  Donald Trump had used  binding confidential legal agreements to shut down  personal disagreements. He has also just lied and lied and lied about many incidents. Nothing new there.

In this case the providence of the claims made in Marys book return to the hitherto respected Maryanne Trump.

The story in the Washington Post goes into much more detail of the  Trump family history as revealed in the conversations. It  also ties in with the current investigations into Trumps financial dealings. It was Mary Trump who leaked financial records to the New York Times over the valuations of businesses that was used in financial settlements. The differences are absolutely huge  ($30m vs $1 billion) .

Finally on a point of law. It is legal New York laws for conversation to be taped if at least one party agrees

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...d457f4-e334-11ea-ade1-28daf1a5e919_story.html

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/s...-is-maryanne-trump-barry-donald-trump-sister/

https://recordinglaw.com/united-sta...party-consent-states/new-york-recording-laws/


----------



## basilio

wayneL said:


> I'd probably slip some valium into your drink to to calm you the **** down, tbh.




I think you might need the Valium mate.. You can take a couple for me if you like..
It's going to be a heroic road to hoe sticking up for The Don. This story might just break the dam wall.

And in September Michael Cohens book will be published.  More reasons to scream Fake News


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> I think you might need the Valium mate.. You can take a couple for me if you like..
> It's going to be a heroic road to hoe sticking up for The Don. This story might just break the dam wall.
> 
> And in September Michael Cohens book will be published.  More reasons to scream Fake News



I don't use benzos baz, they're addictive.

I'd go a nice cup of chamomile tea though, if you're offering.


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> . This story might just break the dam wall.




Naaah: Everyone knows what the Don is like. Doesn't change anything much in my view.
The Steve Bannon Build the Wall controversy is more interesting but Trump is clean of that.

What I didn't realise but read over the weekend on an article on Michelle Obama saying everything is looking pretty bad while her husband says hope is where its at (typical). 

She said she is feeling a weight and sadness and it appears she reflects the country. Statistics show that much of the USA is pretty miserable . *(1/3 of Americans are suffering anxiety and/or depression)* This is where Trump will lose the election.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...with-depression-anxiety-pandemic/?arc404=true
I don't think Conservatives or Liberals can or want to continue under the present poor leadership. The Democrats handed the Republicans  a chance to switch leaders but they blew it.


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> Naaah: Everyone knows what the Don is like. Doesn't change anything much in my view.
> The Steve Bannon Build the Wall controversy is more interesting but Trump is clean of that.




Who knows. Just checking up on the Washington Post story I noticed that the issues of how Trump valued his businesses were at the core of Mary Trumps leaks to the New York Times which led to the current investigations into the financial affairs of Trumps empire. 

This also relates to the use and release of Trump tax records. Worth remembering it was Al Capones non declaration of income/Tax records that ultimately put him in jail.

IMV the denouncement of Donald by his older sister will be a very charge to deal with. Will he call it all Fake News ? Say its made up. The voices are there. Everyone can hear them.

Does he say MaryAnne is just very nasty and a Liar ? Don't think that will go down well .

How will he respond to questions on the various issues  raised in the next Press Conference ? Deny them? Abuse the reporter ? Trash MaryAnne?

I also believe these reports will increase the potency of Michael Cohens book in September when he lays out all the bag work he did for Trump over many years. 

The deals. The pay offs. The confidential non disclosure arrangements. Probably the tax arrangements that  enabled Donald to screw his brother and the IRS.

Overall I think it will be a mortal blow when  Republicans (reluctantly)  realise this guy is just too dangerous to be in power again. MaryAnne Trump Barry is a strong conservative. She would represent a similar stream of views who will, IMV, take the step of supporting a Joe Biden Presidency.

I also wonder how the  Republican Party itself will view the issue and respond. At some stage one would think they would try to save the furniture - in this case control of the Senate even if Trump loses. 

The interesting  issue will be how widely this story gets run and how public opinion and in particular Republican opinion is affected. Another 1% swing from the Republicans to Biden would be catastrophic.


----------



## basilio

19k comments under the Washington Post story on MaryAnne Trumps views

A few of these comments.





18 minutes ago
Well, the Trump family certainly is useful for making one feel better about one's own normal-grade dysfunctional family.  Trump is literally like a monster, created by his horrible parents and unleashed upon the world at exactly the moment and the place he could create the most damage possible.  It's really an incredible story.





11 minutes ago
I don't think Ms. Trump's classically Trumpian actions writing this book are a surprise to anyone -- even Trump's base absolutely knows that he's a scumball and clearly just doesn't care one iota about his lack of morals/soul/decency etc..  The Trump family is a like a bunch of animals, tearing each other apart - the more vicious they are, the more admirable.  If a book like this had been aimed at an enemy and written by one of his own children, Trump would be so proud of his "killer" progeny that he wouldn't be able to contain himself.  





14 minutes ago
Yes, it is news that she said it, and it is recorded. No, it is not news that Trump does not read, that he has no principles, that he always lies, that he is cruel, that he cheats. Everyone knows those things, including Trumpkins. But having his sister's honest opinion makes it just a bit harder for them to pretend they don't know them.





47 minutes ago
Let some Dem's go high. I'm in the Lincoln Project camp.

Hit em hard, hit em low and dont stop.




44 minutes ago
When he's down, kick him.




38 minutes ago
Proud donor here. 




1 hour ago
Perhaps some Trumps are finally experiencing the First Amendment. They've never been allowed to speak their minds honestly. They've never heard honest feedback so it's not surprising they are astounded that DJT gets so much criticism. It never would be allowed for fear of losing $ and the possibility of love. Not one of them has been free to express themselves due to signing away their voices. Even this wall is crumbling. His facade is weaker every day. He's weak, his fortress of lies is weakening, and his enablers are being unmasked at an alarming (for them) rate. No wonder they want to silence the rest of us. We have the one thing they don't! Our voice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ade1-28daf1a5e919_story.html#comments-wrapper


----------



## basilio

From above Washington Post comments thread

4 hours ago
Wow, bonespurs can't even get his own sister to endorse him.
No wonder he has to shop for wives overseas.


----------



## basilio

Always interesting to see the moral values of the Evangelical Right. Jerry Falwell Jnr is  a strong Trump supporter

* Business partner of Falwells says affair with evangelical power couple spanned seven years *
‘IDEAL TARGET’: Giancarlo Granda, who says he had a years-long sexual relationship with the Falwells that began when he was 20, said he now believes the Falwells preyed upon him. “Whether it was immaturity, naïveté, instability, or a combination thereof, it was this ‘mindset’ that the Falwells likely detected in deciding that I was the ideal target for their sexual escapades,” he said. REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-falwell-relationship/


----------



## moXJO

I don't think anyone anywhere thinks Trump is a good person. But personally I prefer the overt shtbags rather then those covert ones like Obama. 

Obamas leadership left the world in a terrible place. It didn't just happen under Trumps term. You also got Trump because of Obama.

As for Marxist. I find it funny that cities are being burned by mobs, people being beaten, murdered, crime. And its glossed over for non events like "Q" or "boogaloo boys". You have media and politicians working in tandem with people destroying their cities. Absolutely staggering hypocrisy.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> I don't think anyone anywhere thinks Trump is a good person. But personally I prefer the overt shtbags rather then those covert ones like Obama.




So overall, despite everything you have seen of the Trump administration,  despite the way they have (not) handled the COVID 19 crisis, despite how they have openly supported some of the most aggressive right wing regimes  and organisations around the world and at home, despite how they have attacked and undermined democratic European democracies..

...you  believe they are a better alternative to the Democrats and better than President Obama.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> So overall, despite everything you have seen of the Trump administration,  despite the way they have (not) handled the COVID 19 crisis, despite how they have openly supported some of the most aggressive right wing regimes  and organisations around the world and at home, despite how they have attacked and undermined democratic European democracies..
> 
> ...you  believe they are a better alternative to the Democrats and better than President Obama.




Hell yeah!


----------



## basilio

Well Moxjo, Dutchie maybe Michael Cohen has a clearer inside perspective on Donald Trump than us 12,000 miles away.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Well Moxjo, Dutchie maybe Michael Cohen has a clearer inside perspective on Donald Trump than us 12,000 miles away.





*All* politicians are liars and deceivers.


----------



## basilio

How well did Trump Build The Wall ? 
The great beautifiul wall that would define his new border protection policy ?
Check out the review of 4 years office.

*John Oliver on Trump's border wall: 'Stupider than I thought was possible'*
Four years after predicting an expensive, ineffective and racist policy, The Last Week Tonight host checks in on Trump’s signature promise of the border wall

...“Fisher Sand & Gravel is a company with a checkered past, that partnered with a shady nonprofit whose backers are now under indictment for skimming money for their own use, in order to have a foreman who’s not an actual foreman help build a wall that looks like it’s going to collapse or get pushed over,” Oliver summarized. “And if you know anything about this administration, it will not surprise you to learn that Fisher has now wound up with over $2bn in border-building contracts.”

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...der-wall-stupider-than-i-thought-was-possible


----------



## IFocus

Mo please there is no such thing as a Marxist in any sort of position of power in the US FFS you have to raise a moxsa just to get elected, guess what that aint Marxist.

No one and I mean no one supports a left wing agenda in the US.

Democrats are not repeat are not left wing they either are or supported by billionaires FFS.

Simple test......whats the wealth disparity in the US? is it getting bigger? Is it the greatest ever transfer of wealth in history?

Really the world has gone mad and completely stupid.

How do I know this.......Trump supporters making up excuses.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Mo please there is no such thing as a Marxist in any sort of position of power in the US FFS you have to raise a moxsa just to get elected, guess what that aint Marxist.
> 
> No one and I mean no one supports a left wing agenda in the US.
> 
> Democrats are not repeat are not left wing they either are or supported by billionaires FFS.
> 
> Simple test......whats the wealth disparity in the US? is it getting bigger? Is it the greatest ever transfer of wealth in history?
> 
> Really the world has gone mad and completely stupid.
> 
> How do I know this.......Trump supporters making up excuses.



Huh? 

Bernie? Williamson? Beto? AOC? The mayors of Portland/Seattle? Half of the Dems in the house and senate?

You have got to be freaking joking.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> Mo please there is no such thing as a Marxist in any sort of position of power in the US FFS you have to raise a moxsa just to get elected, guess what that aint Marxist.
> 
> No one and I mean no one supports a left wing agenda in the US.
> 
> Democrats are not repeat are not left wing they either are or supported by billionaires FFS.
> 
> Simple test......whats the wealth disparity in the US? is it getting bigger? Is it the greatest ever transfer of wealth in history?
> 
> Really the world has gone mad and completely stupid.
> 
> How do I know this.......Trump supporters making up excuses.



When I want to think of a Marxist country with high distribution of taxes, free healthcare, free education, strong unions, government housing, I think of Sweden. What a hell hole.

Hopefully the Democrats won't be able to modify any of those things in the best managed country in the world due to the best President, as he says himself, since Abraham Lincoln.

There is a reason the USA people are known worldwide as the happiest nation on earth.


----------



## wayneL

Sweden is not Marxist, it is a social democracy. BIIIIIIIIIG difference.

That would be like comparing Thatcher's Britain to Nazism.

Have you actually read Das Capital or his other book, which name escapes me for the moment?

This is a critical error in likening mixed economies, ie Capitalist economies with strong social programs, to socialism or communism. It ain't the same.

Karl *Marx* said, 'The last *capitalist* we *hang* shall be the one who sold us the rope.

It that your vision of utopia @Knobby22


----------



## Knobby22

I'm a capitalist in every way.
But you were saying


wayneL said:


> Sweden is not Marxist, it is a social democracy. BIIIIIIIIIG difference.
> 
> That would be like comparing Thatcher's Britain to Nazism.
> 
> Have you actually read Das Capital or his other book, which name escapes me for the moment?
> 
> This is a critical error in likening mixed economies, ie Capitalist economies with strong social programs, to socialism or communism. It ain't the same.
> 
> Karl *Marx* said, 'The last *capitalist* we *hang* shall be the one who sold us the rope.
> 
> It that your vision of utopia @Knobby22




I am a capitalist in every way and think that Swedens model, though it works in Sweden as part of Europe and as a small country cannot be translated to Australia or the USA.

 But you are exactly right, Sweden is a socialist democracy.
So why if someone like Bernie espouses similar policies he is somehow a Marxist?
Its the same mental leap as comparing Thatcher's Britain to Nazism and just as facetious.


----------



## wayneL

Bernie would get short shrift if he came out espousing nationalizing all industry and revoking property rights. I don't know whether he is actually a Marxist in the true sense, many people seem to think that that is his ultimate ideology.

However my answer to Ifocus was about there being no leftist politicians in the US not that they are necessarily marxists.

I do believe there is a substantive Marxist movement in the United States though.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, China will have us for dinner.



Actually if you look at the demise of our manufacturing (which has outsourced to China) and the amount of time we worry about them not buying our cheap resources, they have already had the main course.
I actually don't see continuing to beg and scrape to them, while being on hands and knees, is a very good long term policy.
The way we are just about giving them our resources, tends to make us look like the Chinese dependant welfare nation of Asia IMO.
It amazes me how well it sits with people, but I guess it fits with our general behaviour, welfare is a life choice and held up as something to aspire to in Aus.


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> Actually if you look at the demise of our manufacturing (which has outsourced to China) and the amount of time we worry about them not buying our cheap resources, they have already had the main course.
> I actually don't see continuing to beg and scrape to them, while being on hands and knees, is a very good long term policy.
> The way we are just about giving them our resources, tends to make us look like the Chinese dependant welfare nation of Asia IMO.
> It amazes me how well it sits with people, but I guess it fits with our general behaviour, welfare is a life choice and held up as something to aspire to in Aus.



I have been saying for 20 years that we have been handing economic hegomony to China on a silver platter. Most people always agreed, but here we are.

We are getting everything we deserve.


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> I have been saying for 20 years that we have been handing economic hegomony to China on a silver platter. Most people always agreed, but here we are.
> 
> We are getting everything we deserve.



Absolutely, the companies are getting richer, the poor are getting their welfare, the fire that feeds it (resources) is slowly dimming.
But all is good in the World.
The only person who has taken China to task, is sytematically getting torn down by the multinationals, so that the plebs can continue to be wooed down the path.
China is playing the long game and achieving it through feeding people's personal greed and inherent laziness IMO.
As you say we are getting what we deserve.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Mo please there is no such thing as a Marxist in any sort of position of power in the US FFS you have to raise a moxsa just to get elected, guess what that aint Marxist.
> 
> No one and I mean no one supports a left wing agenda in the US.
> 
> Democrats are not repeat are not left wing they either are or supported by billionaires FFS.
> 
> Simple test......whats the wealth disparity in the US? is it getting bigger? Is it the greatest ever transfer of wealth in history?
> 
> Really the world has gone mad and completely stupid.
> 
> How do I know this.......Trump supporters making up excuses.



Um Bill de blasio is another on top of wayneL picks. Mayor of ny. Look at his past before he changed his name.
 Then you have those that support those who are violently rioting. Look at the base. I get sick of having to draw a line to those who surface skim.

 You better check the new breed of Democrats as well. The old guard is dead. But I agree that the dems were using the left for votes. Doesn't mean we don’t have radicals in every field now after all the pandering.

Dems shot themselves in the foot after the base they created took them prisoner to their growing extremism.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I'm a capitalist in every way.
> But you were saying
> 
> 
> I am a capitalist in every way and think that Swedens model, though it works in Sweden as part of Europe and as a small country cannot be translated to Australia or the USA.
> 
> But you are exactly right, Sweden is a socialist democracy.
> So why if someone like Bernie espouses similar policies he is somehow a Marxist?
> Its the same mental leap as comparing Thatcher's Britain to Nazism and just as facetious.



Its the base you attract.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> So overall, despite everything you have seen of the Trump administration,  despite the way they have (not) handled the COVID 19 crisis, despite how they have openly supported some of the most aggressive right wing regimes  and organisations around the world and at home, despite how they have attacked and undermined democratic European democracies..
> 
> ...you  believe they are a better alternative to the Democrats and better than President Obama.



Did you actually look at Obama beyond his speeches?
He not only destroyed the US and weakened its position, he broke the world through his weak leadership. Did nothing for blacks either.

He goes down as one of the worst.


----------



## bellenuit

This guy is funny if you can keep up with his pace.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Its the base you attract.



50% of the population, yea sure.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> 50% of the population, yea sure.



Talking about specific candidates. Bernie has hired hard Marxists that talked of using gulags and called to burn down cities. Sure that last part will never happen


----------



## moXJO

No matter how much leftist cities slide you lot will continue to ignore it. The rioters have started moving into residential zones and home owners are starting to defend with weapons. 

Yep, keep supporting it though. Its going great so far.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> When I want to think of a Marxist country with high distribution of taxes, free healthcare, free education, strong unions, government housing, I think of Sweden. What a hell hole.
> 
> Hopefully the Democrats won't be able to modify any of those things in the best managed country in the world due to the best President, as he says himself, since Abraham Lincoln.
> 
> There is a reason the USA people are known worldwide as the happiest nation on earth.




Just in case no one picked up on your sarcasm Knobby, here is the world happiness index.

https://worldhappiness.report/news/...-keeps-top-spot-as-happiest-country-in-world/


----------



## basilio

*Trump Outlines Plans For Second Season *

In a rousing speech at the Republican National Convention, Donald Trump said he was confident the Trump Presidency would be renewed for a second season, outlining a proposal for new storylines which he believes will keep the American glued to their television screens.

Pointing to ratings figures which he said were higher than any other president, Trump said season two would be even bigger and better. “Nobody’s ever seen anything like it,” he said.

*Season one, which included a pandemic, race riots, an impeachment, the dismantling of a dozen democratic institutions and most of the main characters being arrested on criminal charges, was criticised for being unrealistic and over the top.*

But Trump said the drama would intensify in season two. “There will be a lot of great stories, believe me. The White Lives Matter protests in episode 5 is one that I’m particularly looking forward to”.  

Seasons three and four are also slated for production.
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/08/25/trump-outlines-plans-for-second-season/


----------



## wayneL

What will you do with yourself if Trump loses, @basilio ?


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> What will you do with yourself if Trump loses, @basilio ?



Spend a lot less time on ASF is my guess.


----------



## moXJO

wayneL said:


> What will you do with yourself if Trump loses, @basilio ?



What will the news do as well?

Lefties will have to find the next evil righty to hate.


----------



## bellenuit

*The Kenosha Shooting Suspect Was In The Front Row Of A Trump Rally In January*

*https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/kenosha-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse-trump-rally*


----------



## Knobby22

bellenuit said:


> *The Kenosha Shooting Suspect Was In The Front Row Of A Trump Rally In January*
> 
> *https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/kenosha-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse-trump-rally*



Hey Mo, voting Trump encourages the wrong type?


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Hey Mo, voting Trump encourages the wrong type?



Yes it does.

 Rioting into the suburbs means vigilantes coming out. Destroying property of people is going to get more people shot. Having mobs roaming the streets have meant that gun sales are up and ammo has actually run out of the country. 
The mayor of the area is a democrat who only brought in about 250 national guard instead of the 750 that was asked for. Direct blame lays at his feet.  
They need to nip violent protests in the bud and keep them out of suburbs, or expect more people to be shot.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> *The Kenosha Shooting Suspect Was In The Front Row Of A Trump Rally In January*
> 
> *https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/kenosha-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse-trump-rally*



So was John Wilkes Booth, at an Abraham Lincoln event.
Lee Harvey Oswald had a seat at the JFK event also.

But I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> So was John Wilkes Booth, at an Abraham Lincoln event.
> Lee Harvey Oswald had a seat at the JFK event also.
> 
> But I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.




Of course it doesn’t.  This suspect didn’t shoot Trump.  He was at a rally at which Trump condemned the type of protestors that he then went and shot. That doesn’t fit the narrative of your other examples.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Of course it doesn’t.  This suspect didn’t shoot Trump.  He was at a rally at which Trump condemned the type of protestors that he then went and shot. That doesn’t fit the narrative of your other examples.



Who knows what he was at the Trump rally for, you can only assume from the information the media feeds you and everyone knows what assumption is.
I personally don't have an interest in any of it, but I have observed the media have taken every opportunity to link Trump to anything disparaging, he may deserve it but it is all getting to the guilty untill proven innocent area ATM.
But there is a sector that laps it up, the election will prove how big that sector is.


----------



## basilio

There are now more and more current US government officials coming out with detailed allegations of Trump stopping preparations for COVID in the US over January/February. Essentially the various Health bodies knew COVID was coming, attempted to bring together the various elements for dealing with the threat - and were instructed by Trump to stop.

170,000 people dead. A country in economic strife because of the inability to control COVID latgely because the President decided  this would all "go away" and nothings serious needed to be done.

Wilful criminal negligence on a National scale.


----------



## sptrawler

I thought I would google Trumps approval rating, to get a bit of an idea as to how our posters, align with the U.S polls.
The article is apparently by an independent non partisan group:
The *Pew Research Center* is a nonpartisan American think tank (referring to itself as a "fact tank") based in Washington, D.C. It provides information on social issues, public opinion, and demographic trends shaping the United States and the world.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...far-are-unusually-stable-and-deeply-partisan/

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/08/13/the-2020-trump-biden-matchup/


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> I personally don't have an interest in any of it, but I have observed the media have taken every opportunity to link Trump to anything disparaging, he may deserve it but it is all getting to the guilty untill proven innocent area ATM.




After repeatedly calling Hilary Clinton a crook with no evidence whatever, he deserves all he gets imho.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> After repeatedly calling Hilary Clinton a crook with no evidence whatever, he deserves all he gets imho.



Probably, yet you idolise Keating who called people all sorts under parliamentary privilege, ironic hey.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Probably, yet you idolise Keating who called people all sorts under parliamentary privilege, ironic hey.




Keating actually had some good policies.


----------



## Knobby22

NBA to boycott games now due to latest shootings.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Of course it doesn’t.  This suspect didn’t shoot Trump.  He was at a rally at which Trump condemned the type of protestors that he then went and shot. That doesn’t fit the narrative of your other examples.



Protesters that rob, loot and burn are called criminals. Still haven't seen the full story on what happened.


----------



## wayneL

moXJO said:


> Protesters that rob, loot and burn are called criminals.



Not in the DNC, those people are heroes.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Keating actually had some good policies.



Absolutely, but you were refering to what someone says, as being how you judged them.
I was just pointing out, it depends on your pre conceived bias, which is moulded by what is presented over the media.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, but you were refering to what someone says, as being how you judged them.
> I was just pointing out, it depends on your pre conceived bias, which is moulded by what is presented over the media.




Well whatever. I'm not sure that Keating ever accused someone of criminal activity under Parliamentary priviledge without evidence, but yes he did drag the debate down sometimes.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Well whatever. I'm not sure that Keating ever accused someone of criminal activity under Parliamentary priviledge without evidence, but yes he did drag the debate down sometimes.



Yes and Trump was completly $hat on by the media for saying things, which Im sure were just miss represented, they are still running tests on some of the virus medications, he was crucified for mentioning.
I doubt he dreamt up any of them, he would have been just repeating what he had been told by his advisers, how the media present that can be in a manner that presents him in a positive trying hard manner, or a village idiot demeaning manner.
The fact still remains that months latr those drugs were still being trailed, I think the Australian armed forces were trailing them till recently.
Yet on this forum the outcome was decided by the media three months ago.
People really need to read more widely and also read without wishing for a certain outcome, just because the media write what you want to hear, doesnt make both right.
By the way I dont give a ratz whether Trump is re elected or not, the China issue was my main concern and I think that ball is well and truly in play.
So it wont matter if he is or isnt re elected, he has brought the issue to the fore and no one else had.


----------



## Knobby22

Worth a read if you are interested, (from The Street a pro business Republican site) :

The CDC abruptly changed Covid testing rules to meet Trump's desire for less testing.
https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/trump-pressured-cdc-to-suddenly-change-covid-rules

Trump just cannot and will not stop outrageous lies. Here's two new lies today. (On China and airlines)
https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/trump-lies-of-the-day-on-saving-the-airlines-and-china


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> By the way I dont give a ratz whether Trump is re elected or not, the China issue was my main concern and I think that ball is well and truly in play.
> So it wont matter if he is or isnt re elected, he has brought the issue to the fore and no one else had.




The China issue was the only thing I liked about his policies.

Now that he's done his bit he should retire. I can't see anything else good that he intends to do apart from issuing vague platitudes about God, law and order and the "American way".

But hey, ScoMo got in with a policy free campaign, so Trump may just do the same (if he prays hard enough).


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Worth a read if you are interested, (from The Street a pro business Republican site) :
> 
> The CDC abruptly changed Covid testing rules to meet Trump's desire for less testing.
> https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/trump-pressured-cdc-to-suddenly-change-covid-rules



Let's talk about this.
They went from testing everyone to testing those with symptoms. You know, just like we do here. Only that you can still ask to be tested without symptoms there. 
Shock, horror, *Conspiracy....
*
Does he have an angle, yeah maybe he does. But its still adequate testing.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> But hey, ScoMo got in with a policy free campaign, so Trump may just do the same (if he prays hard enough).



It wasn't so much ScoMo got in, as Billy shot his feet off and disqualified himself.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Let's talk about this.
> They went from testing everyone to testing those with symptoms. You know, just like we do here. Only that you can still ask to be tested without symptoms there.
> Shock, horror, *Conspiracy....
> *
> Does he have an angle, yeah maybe he does. But its still adequate testing.




Yes, it is conspiracy. The difference between there and here is that ScoMo is following expert advice and Trump is ignoring expert advice for political reasons.

Where we are on the COVID-19 curve is vastly different to the US and requires a different response. The rate of testing in the US is inadequate according to Fauci and the testing they are doing is to a certain degree useless (according to Gates) because the results can take up to 2 weeks to come back. 

In deaths per million people, the US is 11th worst in the world and is still growing at 3 to 5 per million per day. Quite a few countries ahead of them (worse than them) are European countries that have to a large degree got it under control and projections see the US passing them in the next few months.

Does he have an angle? Of course he does. His angle is how can he suppress numbers so that it won't be too obvious to the idiots that follow him that his response to this crisis is a total disaster.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Yes, it is conspiracy. The difference between there and here is that ScoMo is following expert advice and Trump is ignoring expert advice for political reasons.
> 
> Where we are on the COVID-19 curve is vastly different to the US and requires a different response. The rate of testing in the US is inadequate according to Fauci and the testing they are doing is to a certain degree useless (according to Gates) because the results can take up to 2 weeks to come back.
> 
> In deaths per million people, the US is 11th worst in the world and is still growing at 3 to 5 per million per day. Quite a few countries ahead of them (worse than them) are European countries that have to a large degree got it under control and projections see the US passing them in the next few months.
> 
> Does he have an angle? Of course he does. His angle is how can he suppress numbers so that it won't be too obvious to the idiots that follow him that his response to this crisis is a total disaster.



How many other places employ the same method of testing?

And you think democrats don't have an angle?

Are you saying aid wasn't given to states?
I seem to remember the navy rolling into NY port. And 3 Trillion being talked about.

I also remember huge protests at a critical time. While democrats drummed up distraction after distraction. And it started with impeachment.


----------



## moXJO

Also what's the curve on US it must be flattening by now?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Does he have an angle, yeah maybe he does. *But its still adequate testing*.




That is simply untrue and logically disastrous.

The point of testing people who have been exposed to an infected person but don't necessarily show symptoms is to pick up cases early before they start to get sick. Doctors know that people can have and spread COVID 19 for a few days before symptoms might show up.

There is also the situation of people who are infectious but only show mild symptoms. That doesn't stop them spreading the disease to others who could be more severely affected.

If testing another 1000 people who didn't show symptoms resulted in no additional positives there is no effect on the figures However if the extended tests pick up another 50-100 infected people then clearly the disease is still spreading and *people need to isolate.  And of course official figures will indicate a higher number of infections. 
*
Again wilful criminal negligence on a national scale.

It will be interesting to see what Dr Birx and Dr Fauci have to say about this situation.


----------



## basilio

Further details on the policy change regarding COVID testing  at CDC

*In stunning reversal, CDC abruptly changes position on when to get tested*
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/stunning-reversal-cdc-abruptly-position-tested/story?id=72621714


----------



## wayneL

You see this is why we need to wear masks. These spittle flecked rantings of TDS sufferers are truly a danger to public health!


----------



## moXJO

Is the curve flattening or not?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> That is simply untrue and logically disastrous.
> 
> The point of testing people who have been exposed to an infected person but don't necessarily show symptoms is to pick up cases early before they start to get sick. Doctors know that people can have and spread COVID 19 for a few days before symptoms might show up.
> 
> There is also the situation of people who are infectious but only show mild symptoms. That doesn't stop them spreading the disease to others who could be more severely affected.
> 
> If testing another 1000 people who didn't show symptoms resulted in no additional positives there is no effect on the figures However if the extended tests pick up another 50-100 infected people then clearly the disease is still spreading and *people need to isolate.  And of course official figures will indicate a higher number of infections.
> *
> Again wilful criminal negligence on a national scale.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Dr Birx and Dr Fauci have to say about this situation.



Absolutely dribble for the drool king himself.



> Giroir insisted the change comes because it doesn't do much good to have tests done in an area where there is no evidence of spread. A test result also is only valid for the day it's taken.






You are going to have problems testing a population that large if there is a time lag on testing.


How many times have you bunch of spin artists been tested so far?


----------



## IFocus

You cannot make this stuff up

Keep cheering gents................its embarrassing.

Hillary would have been worse Hahahahah




*President Trump made 19,127 false or misleading claims in 1,226 days*

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e-19127-false-or-misleading-claims-1226-days/*


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidm...than-ever-just-look-at-the-data/#7e5a217f1e17

*LATEST FALSE FACT-CHECKS ON DONALD TRUMP*

*https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=donald-trump&ruling=false*

*All the President’s Lies About the Coronavirus*
*https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/*

*Every Time Trump Opens His Mouth, Nine Lies Fly Out: *
*https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/donald-trump-coronavirus-liesCoronavirus Edition*

*Lying again about the pandemic, Trump made 200 false claims from early June to early July

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/18/politics/fact-check-trump-june-july-2020/index.html
*


----------



## cynic

"Latest False Fact Checks"
Interesting phrase, but what does it actually mean?

With such an abundance of ambiguity, various interpretations spring to mind, such as:

a) False checks of latest facts
b) Checks of latest false facts
c) Latest checks of false facts
d) Latest false checks of facts


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> You cannot make this stuff up
> 
> Keep cheering gents................its embarrassing.
> 
> Hillary would have been worse Hahahahah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *President Trump made 19,127 false or misleading claims in 1,226 days*
> 
> *https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e-19127-false-or-misleading-claims-1226-days/*
> 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidm...than-ever-just-look-at-the-data/#7e5a217f1e17
> 
> *LATEST FALSE FACT-CHECKS ON DONALD TRUMP*
> 
> *https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=donald-trump&ruling=false*
> 
> *All the President’s Lies About the Coronavirus*
> *https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/*
> 
> *Every Time Trump Opens His Mouth, Nine Lies Fly Out: *
> *https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/donald-trump-coronavirus-liesCoronavirus Edition*
> 
> *Lying again about the pandemic, Trump made 200 false claims from early June to early July*
> 
> *https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/18/politics/fact-check-trump-june-july-2020/index.html*



I wish someone had taken the time to keep track on all the other presidents, that allowed China to take over all the manufacturing over the last 20 years, maybe that was a bit of an oversight?
Nothing to see here, multinationals making mega bucks from slave labour and cheap coal power, wow how did we miss that.
Dont you piss yourself laughing at the irony?


----------



## dutchie

Trump poses an excellent question.

“Tonight, I ask you a very simple question: *How can the Democrat Party ask to lead our country when it spends so much time tearing down our country?”*


----------



## wayneL

And if you don't vote Biden, you ain't black.

Imagine the whining whingeing hypocritical left if the God Emperor had said something like that.

All so petty


----------



## IFocus

US headed for bankruptcy and burns......under Trump


----------



## SirRumpole

dutchie said:


> Trump poses an excellent question.
> 
> “Tonight, I ask you a very simple question: *How can the Democrat Party ask to lead our country when it spends so much time tearing down our country?”*




So how are they tearing down the country ?


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> So how are they tearing down the country ?



Supporting mob violence in democrat run cities. Portland got out of control because they never condemned antifa.
They held up aid.
Blocking bills.
Attacking the constitution.

Here's a democrat basically telling democrats they are idiots.



And this is just the last month.


Giving the finger to an old couple. Yep.

Using violence to create fear in the opposition. Shaming enough people to try and change a vote. And its infiltrated every level of the lefts thinking. It leads to violence, erosion of freedom and it breeds violent idiots on both sides.
The left in the US has moved to a point where they can't accept any leader unless its one of theirs. Its a dangerous mindset for a group that is already hive thinkers.


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> So how are they tearing down the country ?



ha ha ha ha. Don't worry SirRumple it's all good. Keep your head in the sand and it will all go away.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Supporting mob violence in democrat run cities. Portland got out of control because they never condemned antifa.
> They held up aid.
> Blocking bills.
> Attacking the constitution.
> 
> Here's a democrat basically telling democrats they are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is just the last month.
> 
> 
> Giving the finger to an old couple. Yep.
> 
> Using violence to create fear in the opposition. Shaming enough people to try and change a vote. And its infiltrated every level of the lefts thinking. It leads to violence, erosion of freedom and it breeds violent idiots on both sides.
> The left in the US has moved to a point where they can't accept any leader unless its one of theirs. Its a dangerous mindset for a group that is already hive thinkers.






https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...toking-it-for-political-benefit/#4c69001933f6


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> The left in the US has moved to a point where they can't accept any leader unless its one of theirs. Its a dangerous mindset for a group that is already hive thinkers.




As opposed to Trump supporters who religiously believe that every word their Dear Orange Leader says is Gospel straight from god himself ?

Give me a break.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...toking-it-for-political-benefit/#4c69001933f6



Only now (literally days), after it was polling badly did Biden make a comment. Not the 4 years the rest of the country was condemning it.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> As opposed to Trump supporters who religiously believe that every word their Dear Orange Leader says is Gospel straight from god himself ?
> 
> Give me a break.




Look at you excusing violence after 4 years of jumping on every conspiracy condemning Trump.

Are you trying to label me a Trump supporter to shame me?
Saying I can't recognise fact from fiction?

I'm well aware of the lies from both sides. 

However I notice one side parrots it with no thought. I could care less about Trump. But taking an opposing stance to the obvious dribble falling out of you lot is sorely needed.

Even the above is emotive riddled garbage to discredit.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Look at you excusing violence after 4 years of jumping on every conspiracy condemning Trump.




That's damn insulting. Back it up or apologise.


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> That's damn insulting. Back it up or apologise.



Sure are hot under the collar for someone who does not care.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> That's damn insulting. Back it up or apologise.



Nah.
 Don't post mindlessly.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Nah.
> Don't post mindlessly.




So you can't quote a post of mine saying I excuse violence ?


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> Nah.
> Don't post mindlessly.




Good advice. I suggest you take it.


----------



## bellenuit

This guy is very funny if you can put up with his language and voice.


----------



## moXJO

https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/political-insider-explains-voter-fraud-with-mail-in-ballots/

There's no voter fraud.....



> *Confessions of a voter fraud: I was a master at fixing mail-in ballots*
> By Jon Levine
> 
> August 29, 2020 | 5:24pm | Updated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AP
> A top Democratic operative says voter fraud, especially with mail-in ballots, is no myth. And he knows this because he’s been doing it, on a grand scale, for decades.
> Mail-in ballots have become the latest flashpoint in the 2020 elections. While President Trump and the GOP warn of widespread manipulation of the absentee vote that will swell with COVID polling restrictions, many Democrats and their media allies have dismissed such concerns as unfounded.
> 
> But the political insider, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he fears prosecution, said fraud is more the rule than the exception. His dirty work has taken him through the weeds of municipal and federal elections in Paterson, Atlantic City, Camden, Newark, Hoboken and Hudson County and his fingerprints can be found in local legislative, mayoral and congressional races across the Garden State. Some of the biggest names and highest office holders in New Jersey have benefited from his tricks, according to campaign records The Post reviewed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “An election that is swayed by 500 votes, 1,000 votes — it can make a difference,” the tipster said. “It could be enough to flip states.”
> 
> The whisteblower — whose identity, rap sheet and long history working as a consultant to various campaigns were confirmed by The Post — says he not only changed ballots himself over the years, but led teams of fraudsters and mentored at least 20 operatives in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania — a critical 2020 swing state.




Of course it goes on.


----------



## sptrawler

Donald Trump supporter shot dead at BLM rally, who would have thought, you guys always told me the Trump supporters were the violent ones?
It is hard to make sense of U.S politics, bring on the election IMO.

https://www.news.com.au/world/north...s/news-story/682332cc6963086d3df20a2e3a2e3413


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Donald Trump supporter shot dead at BLM rally, who would have thought, you guys always told me the Trump supporters were the violent ones?
> It is hard to make sense of U.S politics, bring on the election IMO.
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/world/north...s/news-story/682332cc6963086d3df20a2e3a2e3413



Need to kill a few more to even the numbers.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Need to kill a few more to even the numbers.



Or maybe they should stop playing war games and actually contribute in a more meaningful way that doesn't involve violence.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Or maybe they should stop playing war games and actually contribute in a more meaningful way that doesn't involve violence.



I am sure the President could be very influential to do that, if he wanted.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I am sure the President could be very influential to do that, if he wanted.




The truth is both sides are playing their hand.

Trumps on law and order. That's his shtick.
Its polling well.
Biden denounced violence because thats whats going to poll.

Nobody probably gives a crap in reality.


----------



## basilio

*Having railed against Biden for not condemning anti-fascists, and raged against “leftwing political violence”, Trump has obstinately refused to condemn right-wing violence, including the actions of Rittenhouse, one of his supporters. *

It is worth emphasizing, again, reporting from my colleague Lois Beckett. “A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator,” she writes. “Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database.

*  Anti-fascists linked to zero murders in the US in 25 years  *
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifa


----------



## dutchie

I can see that there are a few people here who are going to go bananas when Trump gets in for another 4 years.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> I can see that there are a few people here who are going to go bananas when Trump gets in for another 4 years.



At least the posting rate will stay up, if he loses ASF will lose a lot of posts.


----------



## sptrawler

There certainly seems to be a bit of destruction associated with protests these days.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...-consider-changing-sides-20200901-p55r4v.html
From the article:
Unlike the violence playing out in other American cities, Kenosha sits inside a pivotal battleground state, giving the unrest here added political potency.

Robert Nelson, a former president of the Danish Brotherhood Lodge, says the destruction over recent days has caused a lot of locals who planned to vote against Trump to think again.


"The Democrats are losing ground," Nelson says. "A lot of Democrats aren't really denouncing this or trying to prevent violence from flaring up." A handgun sits in a holster attached to his belt, reflecting Wisconsin's status as a firearm-friendly "open carry" state.

But the sense of fear is unavoidable. The city goes under curfew each night at 7pm, with residents banned from leaving their homes until 7am. Camouflaged trucks carrying soldiers from the National Guard roll through city streets. In an effort to avoid being targeted by looters, building owners have put up signs saying "children live here", "animals live here" and "the elderly live here". Gun dealers in the area have struggled to keep up with demand as frightened locals rush to stock up on firearms and ammunition.


----------



## moXJO

I don't get the absurd emotional hate.
Same when that Jordan peterson guy was around.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I don't get the absurd emotional hate.
> Same when that Jordan peterson guy was around.



People are always looking for an excuse to behave badly, once they are told it is acceptable, it becomes hard to reign it in.


----------



## IFocus




----------



## IFocus

Decent summary by Uhlmann

He is thinking Trump will get re elected, I wont be surprised at all particularly with the blinked absolute stead fast support seen here. 

"When Trump emerged, devotees saw him as a revolutionary vandal. They did not want him to go to Washington and fix it; they wanted him to burn it down. They wanted to inflict a measure of the pain they felt and the louder the mainstream media complained the more convinced they became that he was their man."


"Trump has delivered destruction beyond their wildest hopes but the tragedy for them is that *they worship a narcissistic property tycoon who is incapable of building anything."*

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-reason-he-won-last-time-20200901-p55r6r.html


----------



## moXJO

Im fairly certain he won't get re-elected. He will lead on the day with physical votes. Then lose as postal votes are counted.

Postal vote areas are strongly democrat. They have had years to fine tune their operation.


----------



## sptrawler

I would be very surprised if Trump was re elected, no one could get through the blanket negative media coverage, he has had.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Im fairly certain he won't get re-elected. He will lead on the day with physical votes. Then lose as postal votes are counted.
> 
> Postal vote areas are strongly democrat. They have had years to fine tune their operation.




If you read the research postal votes don't greatly favour one side or the other Trumps claims are more inline with disputing the outcome IMHO.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> I would be very surprised if Trump was re elected, no one could get through the blanket negative media coverage, he has had.





With Trumps lack of moral or ethical standards the media have more material to work with than compared to any other administration in US history.

Trumps use of outrage every day to dominate the news cycle is also a factor its really little to do with a political  stance by mainstream media for serious political bias you have to watch Fox where they twist themselves into knots supporting Trump.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> If you read the research postal votes don't greatly favour one side or the other Trumps claims are more inline with disputing the outcome IMHO.



 In close races, postal votes are dangerous. Ballot harvesting and lack of voter identification is shonky at best. I posted a recent article on the fraud that goes on.

We get our own suspect elections here as well by running dummy candidates to pull votes.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> With Trumps lack of moral or ethical standards the media have more material to work with than compared to any other administration in US history.
> 
> Trumps use of outrage every day to dominate the news cycle is also a factor its really little to do with a political  stance by mainstream media for serious political bias you have to watch Fox where they twist themselves into knots supporting Trump.



News coverage like "mostly peaceful" as the city burns in the background. 
The news media have printed sht since Trump got in. Realistically have always done so. NYT even fired, pushed out objective opinions in favour of clickbait articles.

CNN is more delusional then fox.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> With Trumps lack of moral or ethical standards the media have more material to work with than compared to any other administration in US history.
> .



I don't disagree with that, as for Fox I don't watch it.

It will be interesting to see what american's think at the election, if Trump wins it will be a huge slap in the face for the media in general, a bit like what happened here last election.
Interesting times.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...n-for-trump-among-voters-20200903-p55rvk.html
Washington: A slew of new polls taken after the Republican and Democratic conventions shows Joe Biden continuing to hold a significant national lead over Donald Trump two months out from the US election, even as the contest remains close in several key states.

The series of polls from respected outlets released on Thursday (AEST) show Biden with a national lead ranging from seven to 11 percentage points over Trump, a margin most experts believe would almost certainly deliver the Democratic nominee victory if replicated on November 3.


----------



## wayneL

There are data points all over the shop.

Betfair has them at equal chance after Biden having been odds on previously, and in political terms there is still an eternity till the election.

My gut feeling is Trump will squeak through, but my gut feeling is notoriously inaccurate. 

But I shoulda taken the ~$3.50 on Trump that was in the offing a couple of weeks ago.... thems were good odds.


----------



## bellenuit

*Trump Encourages People in North Carolina to Vote Twice, Which Is Illegal*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/us/politics/trump-people-vote-twice.html


----------



## basilio

bellenuit said:


> *Trump Encourages People in North Carolina to Vote Twice, Which Is Illegal*
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/us/politics/trump-people-vote-twice.html





President Trump on Wednesday suggested that people in North Carolina stress-test the security of their elections systems by voting twice — an act that constitutes the kind of voter fraud the president has railed against.

Mr. Trump made the comment in a briefing with reporters, where he was asked about his faith in the state’s system for voting by mail, which is expected to be more expansive in the 2020 presidential election than in previous years because of concerns about the spread of the coronavirus.

Mr. Trump encouraged people to send in an absentee ballot and then go vote in person on Election Day.

“Let them send it in and let them go vote, and if their system’s as good as they say it is, then obviously they won’t be able to vote,” the president said. “If it isn’t tabulated, they’ll be able to vote.”

“That’s the way it is,” he added. “And that’s what they should do.”

Voting twice in the same election is illegal.

But Mr. Trump’s suggestion that people should vote twice is one he has discussed privately with aides in recent weeks amid concerns he is depressing turnout among his supporters by raising alarms about the security of mail-in voting.

Y*ep, Trump is inciting people to deliberately break the electroral law which is a felony.
There is a black woman in Texas doing 5 years jail time for this sort of behaviour.*


----------



## basilio

* US voter suppression: why this Texas woman is facing five years' prison *
 US voter suppression 
 Texas 
Fort Worth is suffering a crisis of democracy – *just 6% of electors voted in the last midterms –* so why is it aggressively pursuing those who mistakenly cast ballots?

Ed Pilkington in Fort Worth

 @edpilkington 
Tue 28 Aug 2018 15.00 AEST   Last modified on Tue 28 Aug 2018 22.57 AEST
Shares
2,308




Crystal Mason, who is facing five years in Texas prisons because she mistakenly cast a provisional ballot when she was not allowed to do so. Photograph: Ed Pilkington/The Guardian
When Crystal Mason appears in federal court in Fort Worth, Texas, this week she has been warned by her lawyers to be prepared for the worst. Pack a bag, they told her, talk to your children, be ready to go to prison.

As the clock ticks down to her court hearing on 30 August, she finds herself unable to take that advice. “No, I’m not prepared! I can’t go to prison. I’m not leaving my kids,” she said.

Mason, a 43-year-old mother of three, has been sentenced to five years in Texas state penitentiary – with extra time pending in federal lock-up. All because she committed the crime of voting.

On 8 November 2016, as the world waited with bated breath for the outcome of the Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton election, she walked to her local Fort Worth polling station to perform her civic duty as a US citizen. To her surprise, her name wasn’t registered on the voting rolls, so she cast a provisional ballot pending further checks.

In the small print of the form it read: “I understand that it is a felony of the 2nd degree to vote in an election for which I know I am not eligible.” She didn’t read those words, focused as she was on correctly entering her personal details.

Nor did she know that under Texas’s strict electoral laws, she was ineligible to vote. By dint of a previous conviction for tax fraud, for which she had served five years in prison, and for which she was now out on supervised release and living back home, she was one of 500,000 Texans barred from the electoral process.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...g-texas-woman-crystal-mason-five-years-prison


----------



## PZ99

bellenuit said:


> *Trump Encourages People in North Carolina to Vote Twice, Which Is Illegal*
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/us/politics/trump-people-vote-twice.html



So he wants to double his loss. What's not to like ?


----------



## IFocus

At the moment the Democrat's are not targeting the workers in marginal states so every chance they could lose even if they do win the over all vote count as has happen before.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> At the moment the Democrat's are not targeting the workers in marginal states so every chance they could lose even if they do win the over all vote count as has happen before.



I honestly can't see him winning. And for comedy purposes (which is my primary voting metric) Biden is looking good for a laugh.


----------



## dutchie

There is a lot of crap written on this forum about US politics/life (including mine).
You might wonder why some of us bother to debate/argue about another countries politics/lives on a stock forum.
The reason *I do* is because I am worried about Australias' future, in so far that, what ever happens over there (USA) will eventually come to Australia.

It all boils down to this -- free speech or this









It's as simple as that.
What do you want ? Make your choice now, before it is too late.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> There is a lot of crap written on this forum about US politics/life (including mine).
> You might wonder why some of us bother to debate/argue about another countries politics/lives on a stock forum.
> The reason *I do* is because I am worried about Australias' future, in so far that, what ever happens over there (USA) will eventually come to Australia.
> 
> It all boils down to this -- free speech or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's as simple as that.
> What do you want ? Make your choice now, before it is too late.




Bridge to far with that Dutchie and its straight out of the fear politics play book.

Its seems to be working well for you guys.

No political party other than Trump who fuels divisive politics every time he opens his mouth will let this stuff run without some attempt to resolve.

It pretty much all started with Newt Gingrich who kicked off the strategy and then it got away from the Republicans when the Tea Party took off effectually delivering Trump.

The problem for Australia is letting our politicians run no / hate divisive campaigns that says the other side are traitors like Trump and Republicans have for some time demonising the other side.

Abbott had a real go at it Australian style thankfully he is gone rejected by his own party and now also possible by the Poms.


----------



## over9k

Cross-posting from another thread: 




over9k said:


> Everyone are getting the jitters about the election.
> 
> View attachment 108581
> 
> 
> All the news are banging on about biden very possibly losing, the polls show a convergence to 50/50, and the odds on the betting sites have shifted _significantly:
> 
> View attachment 108583
> _
> 
> Even the democrats have changed their tune and are making videos of the riots etc and superimposing "trump's america" over them:
> 
> View attachment 108582
> 
> 
> The whole thing just smacks of utter desperation.
> 
> I mean wow, you mean all those riots that torched entire car dealerships, multi-generation family owned businesses etc etc that democrat mayors and governors _allowed_ to happen aren't reflecting well on the democrat party?
> 
> I am shocked I tell you.




You'll note that literally the day after I made that post that the markets then nosedived with a near 6% drop on the nasdaq and futures/premarket pointing to a repeat of the same bloodbath tonight. I know the poll was a couple of days earlier, but it's the only thing I can think of to explain the massive selloff.


----------



## basilio

This story is creating some flack for the White House.
Naturally there is total denial   from  the Office that Trump has ever been anything less than respectful and supportive of all servicemen.
Interestingly another source notes the information was verified by senior Defense officials...

*Trump called American war dead ‘losers’ and ‘suckers’, report alleges*
The president made the comments as he declined to visit a cemetery outside Paris where US Marines are buried, according to the Atlantic report
Associated Press
Fri 4 Sep 2020 12.14 AEST
Last modified on Fri 4 Sep 2020 14.08 AEST


A new report details multiple instances of Donald Trump allegedly making disparaging remarks about members of the US military who have been captured or killed, including referring to the American war dead at the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery in France in 2018 as “losers” and “suckers”.

The allegations were first reported Thursday in the Atlantic. A senior Defense Department official with firsthand knowledge of events confirmed some of the remarks to the Associated Press, including the 2018 cemetery comments.

The defense official said Trump made the comments as he declined to visit the cemetery outside Paris during a meeting following his presidential daily briefing on the morning of 10 November 2018.

Staffers from the National Security Council and the Secret Service told Trump that rainy weather made helicopter travel to the cemetery risky, but they could drive there. Trump responded by saying he didn’t want to visit the cemetery because it was “filled with losers”, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to discuss it publicly.

The White House blamed the canceled visit on poor weather at the time.

In another conversation on the trip, the Atlantic said, Trump referred to the 1,800 Marines who died in the first world war battle of Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.

“This report is patently false,” said White House strategic communications director Alyssa Farah. “President Trump holds the military in the highest regard. He’s demonstrated his commitment to them at every turn: delivering on his promise to give our troops a much needed pay raise, increasing military spending, signing critical veterans reforms, and supporting military spouses. These nameless anecdotes have no basis in fact and are offensive fiction.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/03/trump-american-war-dead-losers-suckers-report


----------



## basilio




----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> View attachment 108672



Smells like desperation to me. My anon source from another anon source....


----------



## basilio

basilio said:


> View attachment 108672




Trumps  disrespect  to Senator McCain on his war record is public knowledge as are numerous other examples of his treatment of current and former officers.

The current story relates to leaks from inside the military about Trumps  disrespect for US soldiers who died at war.  That's about as insensitive and inflammatory  accusation  as you can get for a Commander in Chief.  It's no wonder there has been vehement denials.

It will be really interesting to see if someone stands up and says otherwise.. 

*All the times Trump has snubbed the military*
https://www.axios.com/donald-trump-...ces-299f8507-94ef-4b40-a5a7-1ce576ed9675.html


----------



## over9k

And his supporters didn't care. 

Again, the whole thing just smacks of desperation.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Trumps  disrespect  to Senator McCain on his war record is public knowledge as are numerous other examples of his treatment of current and former officers.
> 
> The current story relates to leaks from inside the military about Trumps  disrespect for US soldiers who died at war.  That's about as insensitive and inflammatory  accusation  as you can get for a Commander in Chief.  It's no wonder there has been vehement denials.
> 
> It will be really interesting to see if someone stands up and says otherwise..
> 
> *All the times Trump has snubbed the military*
> https://www.axios.com/donald-trump-...ces-299f8507-94ef-4b40-a5a7-1ce576ed9675.html



You know mccains history?

I noticed the military angle a few days ago in the "military times" saying troops don't support trump.
Must have polled well because this came out a few days later.


----------



## basilio

over9k said:


> And his supporters didn't care.
> 
> Again, the whole thing just smacks of desperation.




Nothing Trump does will shake the True Believers. As he astutely noted he could shot someone in broad daylight in the main drag and not lose his voters.

*But not every Republican or uncommitted voter fits that description. *The whole point of the Lincoln Project is to peel off  traditional Republicans who can't stomach where Trump is going. They are having an impact.

On the overall picture.
1) *There are more and more ex White House staffers who are highlighting the administrative disasters Trump has created during his term of office.* It's not hard to find their stories.

2) *Disrespect for people who have given their lives for the country is tantamount to blasphemy in the US. *It really crosses all political boundaries. hats why the White House has been so determined to deny the charge

3) *Trump needs the military onside.  *As part of his Plan B he will attempt to use military force to hold office while protesting the election results were rigged.  Plausible accusations that he calls fallen soldiers "losers and suckers" is not going to go down well.


----------



## basilio

The "losers and suckers" line was said when Trump was supposed to pay his respects at the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery in France in 2018.

These soldiers died 70 -100 years ago so ....who cares  ? Well their children and grandchildren. Their friends as well. There are millions of people who would  be disgusted with a President who called their dead parents or grandparents "losers and suckers" for dying in WW2 to protect democracy.

However the numbers  are far broader than WW2 veterans and their families. The Korean War (1950-53) left 130,000 casualties. The Vietnam War  drained the US for 20 years (1955-75) and left 211,00 direct causalities. The first Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq have seen millions of US soldiers in service, 70,000 direct causalities and countless more sick and sorry.

*How would these soldiers and their friends and family feel about being called "losers and suckers" for fighting for their country ? 
*
Trump is already rewriting history on how he treated Senator John McCain.  Whether Johns family let him get away with his alternative facts is yet to be seen.  He and the White House staff are certainly aware that he can't just shrug off this story.

A critical part will be what sort of evidence or personal testimony can be brought to bear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war


----------



## dutchie

You can't disrespect the military in the US.
But the Democrats, Antifa and BLM  chanting "Death to America" is fine.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The "losers and suckers" line was said when Trump was supposed to pay his respects at the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery in France in 2018.
> 
> These soldiers died 70 -100 years ago so ....who cares  ? Well their children and grandchildren. Their friends as well. There are millions of people who would  be disgusted with a President who called their dead parents or grandparents "losers and suckers" for dying in WW2 to protect democracy.
> 
> However the numbers  are far broader than WW2 veterans and their families. The Korean War (1950-53) left 130,000 casualties. The Vietnam War  drained the US for 20 years (1955-75) and left 211,00 direct causalities. The first Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq have seen millions of US soldiers in service, 70,000 direct causalities and countless more sick and sorry.
> 
> *How would these soldiers and their friends and family feel about being called "losers and suckers" for fighting for their country ?
> *
> Trump is already rewriting history on how he treated Senator John McCain.  Whether Johns family let him get away with his alternative facts is yet to be seen.  He and the White House staff are certainly aware that he can't just shrug off this story.
> 
> A critical part will be what sort of evidence or personal testimony can be brought to bear.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war



Looking like bs.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Looking like bs.





Did you read some of the replies?


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Did you read some of the replies?
> 
> View attachment 108693



Yeah its in Bolton's book as well.
Did you keep looking at the replies, or just the ones that reinforce your opinion?

I went through a lot and looked for historical references. Not just anon opinion.

No other media source seems to be running it hard just yet. Only pointing at the article. Perhaps verification will come if a source steps forward. But right now it looks like more bs.


----------



## moXJO

he did not drive there. No the chopper will not fly in that weather. There are logs of this stuff.

You didn't even read the documents. But read supporting comments who also did not read the documents.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> he did not drive there.




Why? Others did. 



> No the chopper will not fly in that weather. There are logs of this stuff.




Where? 

In drizzle?


----------



## spooly74

over9k said:


> And his supporters didn't care.
> 
> Again, the whole thing just smacks of desperation.



This just energises Trumps base more.
Only TDS suffering lunatics buy this crap. Desperation from a senile basement dwellers campaign team who just got the memo that their polls are shot re: Antifa, BLM riots etc.
They’d want to have a good October surprise because I bet Trump will.


----------



## basilio

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...iden-coronavirus-covid-19-latest-news-updates


----------



## over9k

NOBODY CARES. 

This is not your personal "This is why you should/shouldn't vote for trump" thread.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Why? Others did.
> 
> 
> 
> Where?
> 
> In drizzle?



You literally had to scroll past 4 documents to get to the replies. 
Helicopter wont fly in weather where visibility is reduced with a potus on board.
You can't just drive cross country especially in a foreign country without huge forward security planning.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> View attachment 108708
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...iden-coronavirus-covid-19-latest-news-updates



Why don't you link tweets?


----------



## spooly74

If you have a spare hour and a half.
Every one of them. All 900.


You’d Almost think Trump has Judas Goats in the Biden Camp they’re in such disarray.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Why don't you link tweets?




Just seemed easier to copy and paste the screen and then refer back to the overall source.

I'm not that flash hot with linking to tweets and interestingly enough my computer doesn't show the tweets other people have linked.  Don't know why that happens.

Having said that I just googled Jennifer Griffin at Fox Tweet and the story came up immediately.

Yes it is a (pleasant)  surprise to see a Fox news reporter confirm the stories of Trump spoke about the "losers and suckers" who died in US wars.
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2020...ts-Confirm-Trump-Disparaged-Military-Veterans


----------



## basilio

I don't think Jennifer Griffin will be long at Fox...


----------



## basilio

over9k said:


> NOBODY CARES.
> 
> This is not your personal "This is why you should/shouldn't vote for trump" thread.




I'm not sure what you are saying or who you are speaking to here over9k.
The issue of how Trump speaks  about soldiers who served and died for their country is just damming.

No leader from Russia, Germany, Australia, UK , Timbuku  wherever would hold office if he said the  millions of people who died  in wars  defending their country were "suckers and losers" .

Can you imagine the outrage that would rightfully happen in Australia if any PM had made such a comment? Could you see Putin surviving such a revelation?


----------



## over9k

basilio said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying or who you are speaking to here over9k.
> The issue of how Trump speaks  about soldiers who served and died for their country is just damming.
> 
> No leader from Russia, Germany, Australia, UK , Timbuku  wherever would hold office if he said the  millions of people who died  in wars  defending their country were "suckers and losers" .
> 
> Can you imagine the outrage that would rightfully happen in Australia if any PM had made such a comment? Could you see Putin surviving such a revelation?



Certainly can. How is this relevant to the thread? Is it a policy announcement? Is it an executive order? Is it a proposed legislation change? Is it an analysis of the markets? 

No? 

Then it isn't relevant.


----------



## basilio

over9k said:


> Certainly can. How is this relevant to the thread? Is it a policy announcement? Is it an executive order? Is it a proposed legislation change? Is it an analysis of the markets?
> 
> No?
> 
> Then it isn't relevant.




I think your complaining in the wrong thread over9K. 

This is the General Thread chat section.  It covers anything member's want to discuss that is outside the direct stock/investment discussions which are best covered in the remainder of the forum.

So it is quite relevant and nobody is compelled to read or contribute to any thread. If this is not want you want to read there are 10,000+ alternative options

Cheers


----------



## over9k

So in answer to the question "where can/is donald trump taking us" your response is "he said bad things about war dead he is therefore bad". 

That's not telling us "where we're being taken", it's just screeching ORANGE MAN BAD.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> You literally had to scroll past 4 documents to get to the replies.
> Helicopter wont fly in weather where visibility is reduced with a potus on board.
> You can't just drive cross country especially in a foreign country without huge forward security planning.




Yes, aren't the replies beauties. Sanders (who blatantly lied daily when she was press secretary) and other staff. His wife Melanie. Take this one....







He was incredible eager? You said he could not go by car because of the difficult arrangements it would entail. But this was Europe in November and it would be quite likely that those weather conditions that you say grounded his helicopter are frequent events at that time of year. So even though he was incredibly eager to go there, he didn't make any contingent arrangements to get there by other means, when there was a high possibility that getting there by helicopter was likely impossible.


----------



## bellenuit

spooly74 said:


> If you have a spare hour and a half.
> Every one of them. All 900.
> 
> 
> You’d Almost think Trump has Judas Goats in the Biden Camp they’re in such disarray.





But they are all alive, uninjured and have not ever been captured. It's the latter Trump sees as suckers and losers.


----------



## spooly74

bellenuit said:


> But they are all alive, uninjured and have not ever been captured. It's the latter Trump sees as suckers and losers.



Yeah, sure.
That makes total sense 

I hope the Dems get voted out of existence. 
They deserve nothing less.


----------



## bellenuit

From Fox News - the drive was just 40 miles. Hardly too difficult for someone who was eager to go there.


----------



## dutchie

Trump delivers again.





Russ Vought
@RussVought45

The days of taxpayer funded indoctrination trainings that sow division and racism are over. Under the direction of
@POTUS
we are directing agencies to halt critical race theory trainings immediately. https://whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M-20-34.pdf…
9:57 AM · Sep 5, 2020·Twitter for iPhone


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Yes, aren't the replies beauties. Sanders (who blatantly lied daily when she was press secretary) and other staff. His wife Melanie. Take this one....
> 
> View attachment 108713
> 
> 
> He was incredible eager? You said he could not go by car because of the difficult arrangements it would entail. But this was Europe in November and it would be quite likely that those weather conditions that you say grounded his helicopter are frequent events at that time of year. So even though he was incredibly eager to go there, he didn't make any contingent arrangements to get there by other means, when there was a high possibility that getting there by helicopter was likely impossible.



I linked the docs, you linked speculation.
I'm seeing the same kind of rubbish that's been tried a million times before. 

Even John bolton said it did not happen or he would have devoted a whole chapter of his book.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> Yes, aren't the replies beauties. Sanders (who blatantly lied daily when she was press secretary) and other staff. His wife Melanie. Take this one....
> 
> View attachment 108713
> 
> 
> He was incredible eager? You said he could not go by car because of the difficult arrangements it would entail. But this was Europe in November and it would be quite likely that those weather conditions that you say grounded his helicopter are frequent events at that time of year. So even though he was incredibly eager to go there, he didn't make any contingent arrangements to get there by other means, when there was a high possibility that getting there by helicopter was likely impossible.



You don't just drive around with the potus. 
I'm sure twitter is a legit source for security arrangements though.


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> You don't just drive around with the potus.
> I'm sure twitter is a legit source for security arrangements though.




Well that's the problem with making a lot of stupid statements that can be verified, it leaves you open for all sorts of stuff , verifiable or not, based on "a pattern of behaviour".


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying or who you are speaking to here over9k.
> The issue of how Trump speaks  about soldiers who served and died for their country is just damming.
> 
> No leader from Russia, Germany, Australia, UK , Timbuku  wherever would hold office if he said the  millions of people who died  in wars  defending their country were "suckers and losers" .
> 
> Can you imagine the outrage that would rightfully happen in Australia if any PM had made such a comment? Could you see Putin surviving such a revelation?



Would that be outrage by those citizens, who spat and swore at diggers returning from Vietnam? Yesterdays left wing.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Well that's the problem with making a lot of stupid statements that can be verified, it leaves you open for all sorts of stuff , verifiable or not, based on "a pattern of behaviour".



Like Russian collusion, Obama not spying on trump, brett kavanaugh, pee-pee dossier  and the list just doesn't stop.

Oh and the media? well here's the first 47 bs stories about Trump because that's all that would fit:



> 1. Aug. 2016-Nov. 2016:
> 
> The New York Post published modeling photos of Trump's wife Melania and reported they were taken in 1995. Various news outlets relied on that date to imply that Melania, an immigrant, had violated her visa status. But the media got the date wrong. Politico was among the news agencies that later issued a photo date correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Oct. 1, 2016:
> 
> The New York Times and other media widely suggested or implied that Trump had not paid income taxes for 18 years. Later, tax return pages leaked to MSNBC ultimately showed that Trump actually paid a higher rate than Democrats Bernie Sanders and President Obama.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Oct. 18, 2016:
> 
> In a Washington Post piece not labelled opinion or analysis, Stuart Rothenberg reported that Trump's path to an electoral college victory was "nonexistent."
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Nov. 4, 2016:
> 
> USA Today misstated Melania Trump's "arrival date from Slovenia" amid a flurry of reporting that questioned her immigration status from the mid-1990s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Nov. 9, 2016:
> 
> Early on election night, the Detroit Free Press called the state of Michigan for Hillary Clinton. Trump actually won Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> Nancy Sinatra via Twitter6. Jan. 20, 2017:
> 
> CNN claimed Nancy Sinatra was "not happy" at her father's song being used at Trump's inauguration. Sinatra responded, "That's not true. I never said that. Why do you lie, CNN? Actually I'm wishing him the best."
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Jan. 20, 2017:
> 
> Zeke Miller of TIME reported that President Trump had removed the bust statue of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. from the Oval Office. The news went viral. It was false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. Jan. 26, 2017:
> 
> Josh Rogin of the Washington Post reported that the State Department's "entire senior administrative team" had resigned in protest of Trump. A number of media outlets ranging from politically left to right, including liberal-leaning Vox, stated that claim was misleading or wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 9. Jan. 28, 2017
> 
> CNBC's John Harwood reported the Justice Department "had no input" on Trump's immigration executive order. After a colleague contradicted Harwood's report, he amended it to reflect that Justice Department lawyers reportedly had reviewed Trump's order.
> 
> 
> 
> 10. Jan. 31, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Jeff Zeleny reported the White House set up Twitter accounts for two judges to try to keep Trump's selection for Supreme Court secret. Zeleny later corrected his report to state that the Twitter accounts had not been set up by the White House.
> 
> 
> 
> 11. Feb. 2, 2017:
> 
> TMZ reported Trump changed the name of "Black History Month" to "African American History Month," implying the change was untoward or racist. In fact, Presidents Obama, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton had all previously called Black History Month "African American History" month.
> 
> 
> 
> 12. Feb. 2, 2017:
> 
> AP reported that Trump had threatened the president of Mexico with invasion to get rid of "bad hombres." Numerous publications followed suit. The White House said it wasn't true and the Washington Post removed the AP info that 'could not be independently confirmed."
> 
> 
> 
> 13. Feb. 4, 2017:
> 
> Josh Rogin of the Washington Post reported on "Inside the White House-Cabinet Battle Over Trump's Immigration Order,"only to have the article updated repeatedly to note that one of the reported meetings had not actually occurred, that a conference call had not happened as described, and that actions attributed to Trump were actually taken by his chief of staff.
> 
> 
> 14. Feb. 14, 2017:
> 
> The New York Times' Michael S. Schmidt, Mark Mazzetti and Matt Apuzzo reported about supposed contacts between Trump campaign staff and "senior Russian intelligence officials.: Comey later testified "In the main, [the article] was not true."
> 
> 
> 
> 15. Feb. 22, 2017:
> 
> ProPublica's Raymond Bonner reported CIA official Gina Haspel, Trump's later pick for CIA Director, was in charge of a secret CIA prison where Islamic extremist terrorist Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in one month, and that she mocked the prisoner's suffering. More than a year later, ProPublica retracted the claim, stating that "Neither of these assertions is correct "Haspel did not take charge of the base until after the interrogation of Zubaydah ended."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16. April 5, 2017:
> 
> An article bylined by the New York Times' graphic editors Karen Yourish and Troy Griggs referred to Trump's daughter, Ivanka, as Trump's wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 17. May 10, 2017:
> 
> Multiple outlets including Politico, the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, AP, Reuters and the Wall Street Journal reported the same leaked information: that Trump fired FBI Director James Comey shortly after Comey requested additional resources to investigate Russian interference in the election.
> 
> 
> 
> The New York Times' Matthew Rosenberg and Matt Apuzzo, and CNN's Sara Murray reported the information in sentences and paragraphs that omitted attribution, as if it were an established fact. The Washington Post's Philip Rucker, Ashley Parker, Sari Horwitz and Robert Costa wrote news articles in the style of opinion pieces and from an omniscient viewpoint as if they were somehow in the mind of Trump. For example, they reported, "Every time FBI Director James B. Comey appeared in public, an ever-watchful President Trump grew increasingly agitated that the topic was the one that he was most desperate to avoid: Russia." (Other reporters, Reuters, Dustin Volz and Susan Cornwell, did properly attribute the claim.)
> 
> 
> 
> The Justice Department, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and Acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe said the media reports were untrue and McCabe added that the FBI?s Russia investigation was "adequately resourced."
> 
> 
> 
> 18. May 27, 2017:
> 
> The BBC's James Landale, The Guardian and others reported that Trump wasn't bothering to listen to the translation during a speech in Italian by Italy's Prime Minister. They drew that conclusion without asking the White House and based on a video that showed other political leaders wearing large headphones. The Guardian even claimed Trump was fake listening (smiling and nodding). After the reports circulated, the White House stated that, as always, Trump was indeed wearing an earpiece in his right ear.
> 
> 
> 
> 19. June 4, 2017:
> 
> NBC News reported in a Tweet that Russian President Vladimir Putin told TV host Megyn Kelly that he had compromising information about Trump. Actually, Putin said the opposite: that he did not have compromising information on Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 20. June 6, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Gloria Borger, Eric Lichtblau, Jake Tapper and Brian Rokus; and ABC's Justin Fishel and Jonathan Karl reported that Comey was going to refute Donald Trump's claim that Comey told Trump three times he was not under investigation. Instead, Comey did the opposite and confirmed Trump's claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 21. June 7, 2017:
> 
> In a fact-check story, AP reported erroneously that Trump misread the potential cost to a family with insurance under the Affordable Care Act who wanted care from their existing doctor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 22. June 8, 2017:
> 
> The New York Times' Jonathan Weisman reported that Comey testified Trump Attorney General Jeff Sessions told Comey not to call the Russia probe "an investigation" but "a matter." Weisman was mistaken about the attorney general and the probe. Actually, it was Obama Attorney General Loretta Lynch (not Sessions) who told Comey to refer to the Hillary Clinton classified email probe (not the Russia probe) as "a matter" instead of "an investigation."
> 
> 
> 
> 23. June 22, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Thomas Frank reported that Congress was investigating a
> 
> "Russian investment fund with ties to Trump officials." The report was later retracted. Frank and two other CNN employees resigned in the fallout.
> 
> 
> 
> 24. December 2, 2017:
> 
> ABC News' Brian Ross reported that former Trump official Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn was going to testify that candidate Trump had directed him to contact "the Russians." Even though such contact would not be in of itself a violation of law, the news was treated as an explosive indictment of Trump in the Russia collusion narrative, and the stock market fell on the news. ABC later corrected the report to reflect that Trump had already been elected when he reportedly asked Flynn to contact the Russians about working together to fight ISIS and other issues. Ross was suspended.
> 
> 
> 
> 25. July 6, 2017:
> 
> Newsweek's Chris Riotta and others reported that Poland's First Lady had refused to shake Trump's hand. Newsweek's later "update" reflected that the First Lady had shaken Trump's hand after all, as clearly seen on the full video.
> 
> 
> 
> 26. July 6, 2017:
> 
> The New York Times' Maggie Haberman, CNN and numerous outlets had long reported, as if fact, the Hillary Clinton claim that a total of 17 American intelligence agencies concluded that Russia orchestrated election year attacks to help get Trump elected. Only three or four agencies, not 17, had officially done so.
> 
> 
> 
> 27. Aug. 31, 2017:
> 
> NBC News' Ken Dilanian and Carol Lee reported that a Trump official's notes about a meeting with a Russian lawyer included the word "donation," as if there were discussions about suspicious campaign contributions. NBC later corrected the report to reflect that the word "donation" didn't appear, but still claimed the word "donor" did. Later, Politico reported that the word "donor" wasn't in the notes, either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 28. Sept. 5, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Chris Cillizza and other news outlets declared Trump "lied" when he stated that Trump Tower had been wiretapped, although there's no way any reporter independently knew the truth of the matter, only that what intel officials claimed. It later turned out there were numerous wiretaps involving Trump Tower, including a meeting of Trump officials with a foreign dignitary. At least two Trump associates who had offices in or frequented Trump Tower were also reportedly wiretapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 29. Sept. 7, 2017:
> 
> The New York Times' Maggie Haberman reported Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi called President Trump about an immigration issue. Trump actually made the call to Pelosi.
> 
> 
> 
> 30. Nov. 6, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Daniel Shane edited excerpts from a Trump event to make it seem as though Trump didn't realize Japan builds cars in the U.S. However, Trump's entire statement made clear that he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 31. Nov. 6, 2017:
> 
> CNN edited a video that made it appear as though Trump impatiently dumped a box of fish food into the water while feeding fish at Japan's palace. The New York Daily News, the Guardian and others wrote stories implying Trump was gauche and impetuous. The full video showed that Trump had simply followed the lead of Japan's Prime Minister.
> 
> 
> 
> 32. Nov. 29, 2017:
> 
> Newsweek's Chris Riotta claimed Ivanka Trump "plagiarized" one of her own speeches. In fact, plagiarizing one's own work is impossible since plagiarism is when a writer steals someone else's work and passes it off as his own.
> 
> 
> 
> 33. Dec. 4, 2017:
> 
> The New York Times' Michael S. Schmidt and Sharon LaFraniere and other outlets reported that Trump Deputy National Security Adviser K.T. McFarland supposedly contradicted herself or lied about another official's contacts with Russians. The story was heavily, repeatedly amended. CNN, MSNBC, CBS News, New York Daily News and Daily Beast picked up the story about McFarland's "lies."
> 
> 
> 34. Dec. 4, 2017:
> 
> ABC News' Trish Turner and Jack Date reported that former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort had recently worked with a Russia intelligence-connected "official." But the Russian wasn't an "official."
> 
> 
> 
> 35. Dec. 5, 2017:
> 
> Bloomberg's Steven Arons and the Wall Street Journal's Jenny Strasburg reported the blockbuster that Special Counsel Robert Mueller had subpoenaed Trump's bank records. It wasn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36. Dec. 8, 2017:
> 
> CNN's Manu Raju and Jeremy Herb reported that Donald Trump Jr. conspired with WikiLeaks in advance of the publication of damaging Democrat party and Clinton campaign emails. Many other publications followed suit. They had the date wrong: WikiLeaks and Trump Junior were in contact after the emails were published.
> 
> 37. Jan. 3, 2018:
> 
> Talking Point Memo's Sam Thielman reported that a Russian social media company provided documents to the Senate about communications with a Trump official. The story was later corrected to say the reporter actually had no idea how the Senate received the documents and had no evidence to suggest the Russian company was cooperating with the probe.
> 
> 38. Jan. 12, 2018:
> 
> Mediaite's Lawrence Bonk, CNN's Sophie Tatum, the Guardian, BBC, US News and World Report, Reuters and Buzzfeed's Adolfo Flores reported a "bombshell," that President Trump had backed down from his famous demand for a wall along the entire Southern border. However, Trump said the very same thing in February 2016 on MSNBC, on Dec. 2, 2015, in the National Journal, in October 2015 during the CNBC Republican Primary debate, and on Aug. 20, 2015, on FOX Business' Mornings with Maria.
> 
> 
> 
> 39. Jan. 15, 2018:
> 
> AP's Laurie Kellman and Jonathan Drew reported that a new report showed trust in the media had fallen during the Trump presidency. But the report that AP cited was actually over a year old and was conducted while Obama was president.
> 
> 
> 
> 40. Feb. 2, 2018:
> 
> AP's Eric Tucker, Mary Clare Jalonick and Chad Day reported that ex-British spy Christopher Steele's opposition research against Trump was initially funded by a conservative publication: the Washington Free Beacon. AP corrected its story because Steele only came on the project after Democrats began funding it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 41. March 8, 2018:
> 
> The New York Times' Jan Rosen reported on a hypothetical family whose tax bill would rise nearly $4,000 under Trump's tax plan. It turns out the calculations were off: the couple's taxes would go actually go down $43; not up $4,000.
> 
> 42. March 13, 2018:
> 
> The New York Times' Adam Goldman, NBC's Noreen O'Donnell and AP's Deb Riechmann reported that Trump's pick for CIA Director, Gina Haspel, had waterboarded a particular Islamic extremist terrorist dozens of time at a secret prison; and that she had mocked his suffering. In fact, Haspel wasn't assigned to the prison until after the detainee left. ProPublica originally reported the incorrect details in Feb. 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 43. March 15, 2018:
> 
> AP's Michael Biesecker, Jake Pearson and Jeff Horwitz reported that a Trump advisory board official had been a Miss America contestant and had killed a black rhino. She actually was a Mrs. America contestant and had shot a nonlethal tranquilizer dart at a white rhino.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Sharyl Attkisson's TEDx Talk: Is Fake News Real?
> 
> 
> 
> 44. April 1, 2018:
> 
> AP's Nicholas Riccardi reported that the Trump administration had ended a program to admit foreign entrepreneurs. It wasn't true.
> 
> 45. April 30, 2018:
> 
> AP reported that the NRA had banned guns during Trump and Pence speeches at the NRA's annual meeting. AP later corrected the information because the ban had been put in place by Secret Service.
> 
> 46. May 3, 2018:
> 
> NBC's Tom Winter reported that the government had wiretapped Trump's personal attorney Michael Cohen. NBC later corrected the story after three senior U.S. officials said there was no wiretap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 47. May 7, 2018:
> 
> CNBC's Kevin Breuninger reported that Trump's personal lawyer, Cohen, paid $1 million in fines related to unauthorized cars in his taxi business, had been barred from managing taxi medallions, had transferred $60 million offshore to avoid paying debts, and is awaiting trial on charges of failing to pay millions in taxes. A later correction stated that none of that was true.




And here's the 143 list from just one source:

https://sharylattkisson.com/2020/09/50-media-mistakes-in-the-trump-era-the-definitive-list/

So whose pattern are we looking at right now?


----------



## IFocus

Ok, OK Trump only ever tells the truth...........how much did he pay that pr0n star again..........sorry pr0n stars.........


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Ok, OK Trump only ever tells the truth...........how much did he pay that pr0n star again..........sorry pr0n stars.........



Let he who has not sinned, throw the first stone.
Being a paragon of virtue, isnt actually part of the job description IMO.
I hope everyone making judgements are hollier than thou, but I guess they arent, otherwise they wouldnt be so judgemental.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Being a paragon of virtue, isnt actually part of the job description IMO.




Being honest and truthful is. Don't you think ?



sptrawler said:


> I hope everyone making judgements are hollier than thou, but I guess they arent, otherwise they wouldnt be so judgemental.




None of us are being paid to do his job, so no one has to be "pure", just reasonable and expect standards appropriate for the position of someone who can destroy the world.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Being honest and truthful is. Don't you think ?
> 
> 
> 
> None of us are being paid to do his job, so no one has to be "pure", just reasonable and expect standards appropriate for the position of someone who can destroy the world.



I havent seen truthfullness and honesty being a negative in Australia, seen quite a few politicians thrown in jail, for being dishonest in my time. Maybe Im the only one with a memory, who knows?
Or does honesty, only apply to politicians, a person or the media has an issue with?
Jeez some need to really think about standards and how they apply them, glass houses and bricks come to mind.
Google Australian politicians put in jail, then start throwing the bricks.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Being honest and truthful is. Don't you think ?
> 
> 
> 
> None of us are being paid to do his job, so no one has to be "pure", just reasonable and expect standards appropriate for the position of someone who can destroy the world.



He isn't being paid to do his job. He donates it to charity. At the same time I in no way think he isn't making huge sums with being in his position through other avenues.

Every President has made off with huge $


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> He isn't being paid to do his job. He donates it to charity. At the same time I in no way think he isn't making huge sums with being in his position through other avenues.
> 
> Every President has made off with huge $



Jeez moxjo, dont break their train of thought, he is evil, he is there to strip the U.S bare by restoring manufacturing, he is pandering to big business by reducing their profits, with tarrifs on sweat shops and dumping.
Havent you being reading the media?


----------



## sptrawler

Not Trump related, but along the same theme.
https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...testers-stop-the-presses-20200905-p55sqr.html
You are not agreeing with what we are saying, so we will shut you down, because we are right.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Ok, OK Trump only ever tells the truth...........how much did he pay that pr0n star again..........sorry pr0n stars.........



That's all you have got???

Where have I said Trump isn't a liar. I've specifically said he is a "shtbag of the highest order". That doesn't mean everyone else is of pure virtue. There has been a concentrated effort to knock him down in the polls after Trump start gaining traction the last week and a bit.


The fact you guys can only accept that Trump is the liar and everyone and everything against trump is the bastion of truth is a little scary. We have had 4 years of Democrat and media lies and you brush over the history in some kind of blind trance.


And what on earth do you guys put up?
Anon sources.
Witnesses that can't remember anything except some far fetched story that even people supposedly there shoot down.
Its been a four year gotchya moment that never came and none of you batted an eyelid.

Its like some kind of mental illness. At first it was amusing trolling through. Now its to stop one way traffic.
I hope he loses, so the sunshine and lollipops can come back out for you lot.


----------



## noirua

A potential plus point that may be building slightly for Donald Trump is that virtually all Americans know he is a liar. Some are now wondering why so many appear to be repeating a known fact and some now see it as a comedy act. He appears to be mocking those who seek to discuss this on and on at CNN, Fox, CNBC and other US TV channels. Florida is now closing as Trump catches up in latest polls on Saturday. Betting odds are improving for Donald Trump. https://www.ft.com/content/b3297609-e63b-4161-8287-7ab1179d0c40
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
https://bookies.com/news/presidential-election-odds-daily-tracker
Moderators for upcoming presidential debates were announced Wednesday. All three debates will feature just one moderator, beginning with Fox News anchor Chris Wallace Sep. 29 in Cleveland.
The second debate, on Oct. 15, will be moderated by Steve Scully, the political editor at C-SPAN, who served as an alternate moderator for the 2016 debates.
Kristen Welker, a White House correspondent for NBC News and a co-anchor of the weekend “Today” program, will moderate the third debate on Oct. 22. This will be her first time moderating a general-election debate.


----------



## basilio

*'They capitulated to Trump': Michael Steele on the fight for the Republican party's soul*

*He was the first Black chairman of the GOP but he is campaigning for its defeat in November. Trump’s ‘collaborators’ will face a reckoning, he believes*

*



*
Michael Steele, a top Black Republican, defies assumptions. He appears as a pundit on the liberal-leaning MSNBC network with a quotation from Ronald Reagan displayed on his office wall. He has been a member of the Grand Old Party for more than four decades, but is now openly and actively plotting its defeat in November*.*
*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...teele-donald-trump-republican-party-interview*

_‘Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter.’
Dr Martin Luther King _​


----------



## Knobby22

It is amazing how many Republicans are actively attacking him. The closer they were to him, the more they attack. Saw 2 stories today that didn't include yours Baz and I am not even actively looking.

So many sustained Republican attacks. 
The GOP is fighting for the soul of their party.

This is going to be the most interesting election ever. 

If its close it will be even more interesting as I would ecpect Trump will refuse to leave and will call, what will be, in effect, private militias but like everything else he won't properly lead them so it won't go very far  Imagine though if one group took over a city?


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> If its close it will be even more interesting as I would ecpect Trump will refuse to leave and will call, what will be, in effect, private militias but like everything else he won't properly lead them so it won't go very far  Imagine though if one group took over a city?




At the moment, from what is happening in the streets with the rioting and looting, the likelyhood of a group taking over a city seems much more likely to be Democrat and media led, if Trump wins.


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> It is amazing how many Republicans are actively attacking him. The closer they were to him, the more they attack. Saw 2 stories today that didn't include yours Baz and I am not even actively looking.
> 
> So many sustained Republican attacks.
> The GOP is fighting for the soul of their party.
> 
> This is going to be the most interesting election ever.
> 
> If its close it will be even more interesting as I would ecpect Trump will refuse to leave and will call, what will be, in effect, private militias but like everything else he won't properly lead them so it won't go very far  Imagine though if one group took over a city?




This story came out in Reuters a few days ago. It details a broader range of Independent and Republician identities who are actively campaigning against Trump .

*Exclusive: Biden garners more Republican endorsements, this time from ex-governors*
Tim Reid
4 Min Read

(Reuters) - Nearly 100 Republican and independent leaders will endorse Democrat Joe Biden for president on Thursday, including one-time 2020 Republican presidential candidate Bill Weld and the former Republican governors of Michigan and New Jersey, people involved in the effort told Reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nts-this-time-from-ex-governors-idUSKBN25U1AK


----------



## moXJO

The people actually in the room have denied the story that Trump denigrated fallen soldiers.

To those who think he skipped it because of the weather. He went to a ceremony in Suresnes in the pouring rain the next day.

So looking like another bs story as everyone that was supposedly in the room seems to be denying.


----------



## basilio

xxx
Can't see the tweet.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> At the moment, from what is happening in the streets with the rioting and looting, the likelyhood of a group taking over a city seems much more likely to be Democrat and media led, if Trump wins.




The rioting is about social issues to many to list, killing of unarmed black men (shooting people repeatedly in the back is a bad look) but realistically not due to political motivation,  most of the rioters wont even vote Trumps knows this.

Unlike the white supremacists that US Federal agency's really fear!


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> The rioting is about social issues to many to list, killing of unarmed black men (shooting people repeatedly in the back is a bad look) but realistically not due to political motivation,  most of the rioters wont even vote Trumps knows this.
> 
> Unlike the white supremacists that US Federal agency's really fear!



It is a shame our vocal minority have to jump on the shirt tails of any issue that allows them to behave badly.


----------



## moXJO

ttps://mobile.twitter.com/Surabees/status/1303018841660968960?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1303018841660968960%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1303018841660968960



Put a "h" at the start of link.
It automatically links post any other way I try and do it.


----------



## dutchie

*Lawmaker nominates President Trump for Nobel Peace Prize*
*Move comes after peace agreement between United Arab Emirates and Israel*

*https://www.clickorlando.com/news/w...wmaker-nominates-trump-for-nobel-peace-prize/*


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> *Lawmaker nominates President Trump for Nobel Peace Prize*
> *Move comes after peace agreement between United Arab Emirates and Israel*
> 
> *https://www.clickorlando.com/news/w...wmaker-nominates-trump-for-nobel-peace-prize/*



One thing I will say in Trumps favour, he is not a warmonger. 
But in relation to the Nobel, UAE and Israel weren't really at war and the agreement hasn't been signed so ...


----------



## SirRumpole

moXJO said:


> We have had 4 years of Democrat and media lies and you brush over the history in some kind of blind trance.




The Democrats aren't in power. 

By all means people should point out when the Democrats are lying, but the guy with the power has to take responsibility for his actions.


----------



## dutchie




----------



## basilio

*Bob Woodward.   Fear.*

In 2018  Bob Woodward (who broke the Watergate scandal)  was able to write a book on the Trump Presidency with hundreds of hours of interviews including Donald Trump and many administration officials.

_The book details aides of Trump as they try to deal with Trump's behavior. According to the book, aides took papers off of his desk to prevent him from signing them. White House Chief of Staff John F. Kelly referred to Trump as an "idiot" and "unhinged", while Secretary of Defense James Mattis said Trump has the understanding of "a fifth or sixth grader," and John M. Dowd, formerly Trump's personal lawyer, called him "a xucking liar" telling Trump he would wear an "orange jump suit" if he agreed to testify to Robert Mueller in the Special Counsel investigation.[14]

According to the book, Trump has called Jeff Sessions, his attorney general, "mentally retarded" and described him as a "dumb southerner".[15][16] Trump has denied ever using "these terms on anyone", although tape recordings from 2004 contradict this assertion.[16]

CNN's editor-at-large Chris Cillizza described Fear telling a similar story compared to mainstream media reporting and other 2018 books – journalist Michael Wolff's Fire and Fury and former Trump aide Omarosa Manigault Newman's Unhinged – that the Trump administration has a "chaotic, dysfunctional, ill-prepared White House" led by Trump, "a man hopelessly out of his depth in the job, but entirely incapable of understanding how desperately out of depth he actually is".[17]_

_*Real power is, I don't even want to use the word, fear.[2] Donald Trump*
_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear:_Trump_in_the_White_House


----------



## basilio

So. Given how effectively Bob Woodward skewered Donald Trump in Fear. Why did  Trump agree to another series of interviews for Bob's next book ?
He did indeed. It's called Rage and will be released next week. Meanwhile the best bits.
*
5 Takeaways From ‘Rage,’ Bob Woodward’s New Book About Trump
Mr. Woodward reveals that President Trump sought to play down the severity of the coronavirus and repeatedly denigrated the U.S. military.*

Feb. 7 interview with the journalist Bob Woodward for his upcoming book, “Rage.” But it was a vastly different story than he was telling the public at the time. Mr. Trump would later admit to Mr. Woodward that publicly, he “wanted to always” play down the severity of the virus.

Mr. Woodward conducted 18 interviews with the president for the book, which goes on sale next week. Mr. Trump also granted Mr. Woodward access to top officials inside the White House, revealing the inner workings of the president and his administration.

Here are five takeaways.

*Mr. Trump minimized the risks of the coronavirus to the American public early in the year.*
Despite knowing that the virus was “deadly” and highly contagious, he often publicly said the opposite, insisting that the virus would go away quickly.

“I wanted to always play it down,” Mr. Trump told Mr. Woodward on March 19. “I still like playing it down, because I don’t want to create a panic.”

And while he was saying publicly that children were “almost immune” to the virus, he told Mr. Woodward in March: “Just today and yesterday, some startling facts came out. It’s not just old, older. Young people too — plenty of young people.”

In April, as he began to urge the country to reopen, Mr. Trump told Mr. Woodward of the virus, “It’s so easily transmissible, you wouldn’t even believe it.”
-------------
I wonder the families of the 180,000 plus people who have already died from COVID 19 will feel about this revelation?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/us/politics/woodward-trump-rage-takeaways.html


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> “I wanted to always play it down,” Mr. Trump told Mr. Woodward on March 19. “I still like playing it down, because I don’t want to create a panic.”



Maybe,that will be shown to have been very astute of him, at a later date.
If there is shown to be a residual component, that remains dormant until the immune system is compromised, then surfaces and causes major health issues for those previously infected.
We have mulled that issue since the outbreak began.
But lets just grab the headline.
Let's not think past the headline.
The headline is god.
Let's take the other route, if there is a residual component and it is suspected, then Trump says anyone who gets this, cops a death sentence, later in life. How would that work out.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> Maybe,that will be shown to have been very astute of him, at a later date.
> If there is shown to be a residual component, that remains dormant until the immune system is compromised, then surfaces and causes major health issues for those previously infected.
> We have mulled that issue since the outbreak began.
> But lets just grab the headline.
> Let's not think past the headline.
> The headline is god.




Sorry, but there is a difference between not wanting to create panic and telling the public the truth so they can take proper precautions.

The virus got away in the US because people thought it was nothing to worry about and therefore didn't change their behaviour to avoid getting it or spreading it.

Another one of Trump's attempts to rewrite his history I'm afraid.


----------



## basilio

sptrawler said:


> Maybe,that will be shown to have been very astute of him, at a later date.
> If there is shown to be a residual component, that remains dormant until the immune system is compromised, then surfaces and causes major health issues for those previously infected.
> We have mulled that issue since the outbreak began.
> But lets just grab the headline.
> Let's not think past the headline.
> The headline is god.
> Let's take the other route, if there is a residual component and it is suspected, then Trump says anyone who gets this, cops a death sentence, later in life. How would that work out.




I don't understand where you are coming from here SP.

Trump was told *and accepted on Jan 28th *that the COVID 19 virus was very dangerous and very contagious.  10 days later he passes on that view to Bob Woodward. And then he spends the  next weeks and months saying "it's a hoax", "it's no worse than the flu", "it will just go away."

He undermined the efforts to prepare the community. He undermined the CDC capacity to respond to the rapid increase in infections and hospitalizations. As a direct consequence of his failure to prepare and respond to this epidemic the US has one of the highest rates of death and infections in the world.

And right now, *with the knowledge he has of how dangerous and contagious this disease is,* he holds huge public rallies with tens of thousands of people in close contact and few masks.

And this is  just one incredibly damning indictment of Trumps Presidency. _*Rage*_ explores far more than a single headline.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry, but there is a difference between not wanting to create panic and telling the public the truth so they can take proper precautions.
> 
> The virus got away in the US because people thought it was nothing to worry about and therefore didn't change their behaviour to avoid getting it or spreading it.
> 
> Another one of Trump's attempts to rewrite his history I'm afraid.



Oh well I guess that is it then.
There are still a hell of a lot of the people in the U.S behaving badly because they still don't believe it, wouldn't it be nice if everyone did as Trump said, then we could stop everyone taking drugs and stop smoking. Just get Trump to make a general announcement, problems solved.


----------



## basilio

*Woodward book: Trump says he knew coronavirus was ‘deadly’ and worse than the flu while intentionally misleading Americans*

President Trump’s head popped up during his top-secret intelligence briefing in the Oval Office on Jan. 28 when the discussion turned to the coronavirus outbreak in China.

“This will be the biggest national security threat you face in your presidency,” national security adviser Robert C. O’Brien told Trump, according to a new book by Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward. “This is going to be the roughest thing you face.”

Matthew Pottinger, the deputy national security adviser, agreed. He told the president that after reaching contacts in China, it was evident that the world faced a health emergency on par with the flu pandemic of 1918, which killed an estimated 50 million people worldwide.

Ten days later, Trump called Woodward and revealed that he thought the situation was far more dire than what he had been saying publicly.

“You just breathe the air and that’s how it’s passed,” Trump said in a Feb. 7 call. “And so that’s a very tricky one. That’s a very delicate one. It’s also more deadly than even your strenuous flus.”

“This is deadly stuff,” the president repeated for emphasis.

0:00/0:58
_Listen: In a Feb. 7 interview, when asked what Chinese President Xi Jinping told him about the virus, Trump says, “This is deadly stuff.”_
At that time, Trump was telling the nation that the virus was no worse than a seasonal flu, predicting it would soon disappear and insisting that the U.S. government had it totally under control. It would be several weeks before he would publicly acknowledge that the virus was no ordinary flu and that it could be transmitted through the air.

*Trump and Kim Jong Un*

‘We fell in love’: Trump and Kim shower praise, stroke egos on path to nuclear negotiations

Kim welcomed Trump’s overtures with over-the-top prose in letters. Kim wrote that he wanted “another historic meeting between myself and Your Excellency reminiscent of a scene from a fantasy film.” And he said his meetings with Trump were a “precious memory” that underscored how the “deep and special friendship between us will work as a magical force.”

In another letter, Kim wrote to Trump, “I feel pleased to have formed good ties with such a powerful and preeminent statesman as Your Excellency.” And in yet another, Kim reflected on “that moment of history when I firmly held Your Excellency’s hand at the beautiful and sacred location as the whole world watched with great interest and hope to relive the honor of that day.”






Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un in Singapore during their first summit, on June 12, 2018. (Evan Vucci/AP)
Trump was taken with Kim’s flattery, Woodward writes, telling the author pridefully that Kim had addressed him as “Excellency.” Trump remarked that he was awestruck meeting Kim for the first time in 2018 in Singapore, thinking to himself, “Holy ****,” and finding Kim to be “far beyond smart.” Trump also boasted to Woodward that Kim “tells me everything,” including a graphic account of Kim having his uncle killed.

Trump did not share his letters to Kim — “Those are so top secret,” the president said — but Woodward obtained them independently. He writes that Trump sent Kim a copy of the New York Times featuring a picture of the two men on the front page. “Chairman, great picture of you, big time,” Trump wrote on the paper in marker. (Trump falsely boasted to Woodward: “He never smiled before. I’m the only one he smiles with.”)

Trump reflected on his relationships with authoritarian leaders generally, including Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. “It’s funny, the relationships I have, the tougher and meaner they are, the better I get along with them,” he told Woodward. “You know? Explain that to me someday, okay?”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...Q.LgMt16athn15Ya-8SVycwAGd7goTzF1EZue6iaehqUc


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> I don't understand where you are coming from here SP.
> 
> Trump was told *and accepted on Jan 28th *that the COVID 19 virus was very dangerous and very contagious.  10 days later he passes on that view to Bob Woodward. And then he spends the  next weeks and months saying "it's a hoax", "it's no worse than the flu", "it will just go away."
> .



If you don't understand where I was coming from in my previous post, I will try another approach.

There are a hell of a lot of people who believe that it is no worse than a bad flu and statistically that is right, also the mortality rate is extremely low, so in reality does that make him right or wrong?
Most of the World's leaders have IMO played down the severity of the virus, even our own leaders, the BLM rallies were not banned by our governments at the height of the pandemic, so why isn't that being thrashed to death.
If anything the media is pushing the fact the BLM didn't cause a problem, so how can social contact now be a big issue if it is downplayed when it involved a good cause? How can anybody have any faith in what is spewed forth in the media.

Just trying to put a different viewpoint, to the media's tunnel vision approach.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> There are still a hell of a lot of the people in the U.S behaving badly because they still don't believe it,




That's exactly the point.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> If anything the media is pushing the fact the BLM didn't cause a problem,




They are and they are wrong.

The ABC relentlessly bashed McCormack for saying on Q&A that there was a problem with the protests. He eventually backed off under pressure but if people can't have friends over to their house they shouldn't be allowed to gather at protests either.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> That's exactly the point.



So Trump is to blame for them still not behaving badly, after all the media coverage?
Who is responsible for those still breaking the rules in Australia? Trump


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> So Trump is to blame for them still not behaving badly, after all the media coverage?




I would say that the majority of people who think covid is rubbish would be Trump supporters.

Disagree ?


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> They are and they are wrong.
> 
> The ABC relentlessly bashed McCormack for saying on Q&A that there was a problem with the protests. He eventually backed off under pressure but if people can't have friends over to their house they shouldn't be allowed to gather at protests either.



That is what I'm saying, people have to make decisions for their own conduct, always trying to find someone else to be responsible for your bad decisions, is the way of the World today.
Which is my point regards the BLM rally, if the government didn't take it seriously when at the height of the first shutdown, how can they now expect people to take them seriously with curfews, severe secondary lockdowns etc.
Meanwhile the media, as you say bash someone for saying the rally was wrong, that is mixed messages and completely shooting down any credibility.


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> I would say that the majority of people who think covid is rubbish would be Trump supporters.
> 
> Disagree ?



I wouldn't have a clue.
I personally really don't want to get it, because I tend to think of the worst and hope for the best, so it wouldn't matter to me what a politician said.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> That is what I'm saying, people have to make decisions for their own conduct, always trying to find someone else to be responsible for your bad decisions, is the way of the World today.
> Which is my point regards the BLM rally, if the government didn't take it seriously then at the height of the first shutdown, how can they now expect people to take them seriously with curfews, severe secondary lockdowns etc.
> Meanwhile the media, as you say bash someone for saying the rally was wrong, that is mixed messages and completely shooting down any credibility.




Well I think that the governments did take these rallies seriously. The police ministers, Premiers  and police chiefs were out there saying " don't go", but the Lefties ignored it. Here is Andrews saying "don't go".

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/worried...-victorians-to-avoid-black-lives-matter-rally


----------



## sptrawler

SirRumpole said:


> Well I think that the governments did take these rallies seriously. The police ministers, Premiers  and police chiefs were out there saying " don't go", but the Lefties ignored it. Here is Andrews saying "don't go".
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/worried...-victorians-to-avoid-black-lives-matter-rally



They should have said anyone who goes will be arrested and fined, it was creating a public danger, nuisance and exposing innocent people to the risk of infection, what about the general public going about their rightful business? It was outside the Flinders street station wasn't it?














If it was o.k to do it then, why not now, apparently it didn't cause a problem then and only some were wearing masks?
So who is misleading the public? the press or the politicians?


----------



## basilio

Donald Trump was  saying in one breath how deadly and dangerous COVID is (remembering China was in total lockdown to stop its spread at that stage) and then going out and undermining his health officials capacity to deal with an out of control epidemic by saying it was just a flu and people shouldn't be too worried..

*As a direct result of this lie tens of thousands of people needlessly lost their lives.  *The resultant economic fallout has caused  trillions of dollars of economic loss and the end is still nowhere in sight.

*Social distancing a week earlier could have saved 36,000 American lives, study says*

21st May 2020
*New research from Columbia University epidemiologists offered one possible answer on Wednesday. If the same kind of social distancing had been in place seven days earlier, their study found, the United States could have prevented 36,000 deaths through early May — about 40 percent of fatalities reported to date.

“If you don’t take steps to fight the growth rate aggressively, you get much worse consequences,” Jeffrey Shaman, an environmental health sciences professor who led the study, told The Washington Post.

His team’s analysis used infectious-disease modeling to examine the spread of the virus from March 15, when many people nationwide began staying home, until May 3. The researchers examined transmissions within each county, movement between counties and deaths to chart how the virus spread — and killed — over seven weeks.*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0.Atv8g_QTyhpQ_zYLREHgSikW943VbLQpzMO5k_CaIBU


----------



## basilio

Still more examples of an administration that creates its own alternative facts to back up a President who only likes his reality.

*Trump loyalists interfered to downplay Russia election threat – whistleblower*
Brian Murphy claims he was demoted for refusing to accept fabrication of intelligence to match Donald Trump’s rhetoric

Trump in February with Chad Wolf, the acting homeland security chief. Wolf reportedly told Murphy his Russia assessment should be ‘held … [because it] made the president look bad’. Photograph: Kevin Lamarque/Reuters
Julian Borger in Washington
Wed 9 Sep 2020 17.31 EDT

Last modified on Wed 9 Sep 2020 21.48 EDT


535
Trump loyalists running the Department of Homeland Security manipulated intelligence reports to play down the threat of Russian election interference and white supremacists and exaggerate the threat of antifa and anarchist groups, according to the department’s former top intelligence official.

The official, Brian Murphy, said he was demoted in August from his position running the department’s office of intelligence and analysis because of his refusal to go along with the fabrication of intelligence to match Donald Trump’s rhetoric, and for making formal complaints about the political pressure. He filed a whistleblower reprisal complaint on Tuesday.

Murphy was transferred to a DHS management position after his team was found to have collected information on reporters and protesters in Portland, Oregon. In his complaint, he claims the office “never knowingly or deliberately collected information on journalists, at least as far as Mr Murphy is aware or ever authorized”, and he described the reporting as “significantly flawed”.

He insists the real reason for his transfer was his refusal to manipulate vital intelligence on national security.

Murphy alleges that the efforts to falsify DHS intelligence date back to 2018, when the then homeland security secretary, Kirstjen Nielsen, asked his office to inflate the numbers of known or suspected terrorists crossing the border with Mexico, in support of Trump’s demand for a border wall.

Murphy says the intelligence identified three such terrorist cases. In December 2018, Nielsen told the House judiciary committee there were 3,755.

According to Murphy’s testimony, Nielsen and her successor, Chad Wolf, continued to exaggerate the terrorist threat at the border in 2019, while being aware of the real figures.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/09/trump-whistleblower-russia-election-threat


----------



## IFocus

If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue.



Umm perhaps you just weren't really paying attention to other world leaders then. 

Obama failed so hard that Russia and China pulled ahead. Bush and Obama caused wars and untold deaths and were constantly disregarding other countries rights. Bush, Obama, and Clinton setup and mishandled the gfc with more lies and lost money.
Where do you stop with any past President, let alone world leader. Their failures would be to long to list.

Trump farts and you know about it. He has been the most scrutinised leader ever. 

This week its " Trump and coronavirus".
Trump talking smack about the military fell apart after lightly picking at it.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue.



Funny at a local macro level Barnett was $hat on for the Fiona Stanley hospital, the Victoria Quay, the new Princess Margaret hospital, the Joondalup health campus, the Midland health campus, the Northern Hwy link to Muchea, the Optus Stadium, the failed James Price Point gas hub, criticised for objecting to the gst distribution formulae.
In hind sight he wasnt that silly, as you have agreed, I think Trump is under the very same media pressure Barney was, just a 100 times bigger media gorilla.
Just my opinion, I think they could convince everyone Jesus banged in his own nails IMO.


----------



## IFocus

Gents.....read the post again 

"If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue."

If the Australia PM carried on like Trump he would be gone, look at Abbott no where near Trumps level but still heading that way, 2 years gone.

Seriously only place in the world that would vote for Trump the leader you cannot afford in a crisis is the US and the place is either dying, burning or shooting each other what a mess......oh hang on Hillary would have been worse


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Gents.....read the post again
> 
> "If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue."
> 
> If the Australia PM carried on like Trump he would be gone, look at Abbott no where near Trumps level but still heading that way, 2 years gone.
> 
> Seriously only place in the world that would vote for Trump the leader you cannot afford in a crisis is the US and the place is either dying, burning or shooting each other what a mess......oh hang on Hillary would have been worse



Well that was delusional, Abbott called out the sad state of welfare, was slaged off at by a media seeking lawyer and given a forum by a lunatic media.
But yes it did work, he is still carrying the scars, as was proven last week and the attention seeker is still riding the wave.
But who cares as long as it wins.
I guess you have to take the wins, when you get them, there isnt many.
Look at Bill, media behind him bookies paying out before the election, then boom both feet gone.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Gents.....read the post again
> 
> "If any other leader in the western world acted or failed to act like Trump re COVID they would be gone, its simply the mess of US politics and failure / cowardice of the Republicans to deal with the issue."
> 
> If the Australia PM carried on like Trump he would be gone, look at Abbott no where near Trumps level but still heading that way, 2 years gone.
> 
> Seriously only place in the world that would vote for Trump the leader you cannot afford in a crisis is the US and the place is either dying, burning or shooting each other what a mess......oh hang on Hillary would have been worse



Made up media stories don't really count. 
US is 11th on the list for deaths per million. I'm yet to hear any of you whinge about the other ten. 

Considering its democrat cities burning, then yes Hillary would have been worse. The stain of the Democrats was smeared across to many agencies and departments. 

Its been a couple of years of "gotchya" moments that never came.


----------



## basilio

I was wondering...
There has been a slew of very challenging stories for Donald Trump in the last 24 hours.

So how would the Trump media supporters respond in terms of refuting/ challenging/ topic changing the issues  that have been raised ?

1) That Trump knew about the dangers of COVID  from January 28th but decided to ignore and downplay the risks and effectively undermined the CDC efforts to control the spread of the disease?
2) That Donald was basically smitten with Kim Jung In and lost all control of political processes with North Korea ?
3) That The Don managed to tell everyone  US  had a new top secret "super duper"  weapons system?
4) That the Office of Homeland security ordered intelligence to be rewritten to suit the direction the administration ?
5) That Donald Trump spoke of US soldiers who died or were taken prisoner during wars as "losers" and "suckers" while he was supposed to be commemorating their sacrifice .

The answer of course is that it is impossible to defend or rationalise any of these actions. So the response is the MoXjo summary

_Obama failed so hard that Russia and China pulled ahead. Bush and Obama caused wars and untold deaths and were constantly disregarding other countries rights. Bush, Obama, and Clinton setup and mishandled the gfc with more lies and lost money.
Where do you stop with any past President, let alone world leader. Their failures would be to long to list.  MoXjo
_
Just throw out a total fabrication of previous/other leaders  history and somehow say that these lies excuse the fact that we cannot with a straight face address  the stupidity, the arrogance and the dangers posed by Donald Trump.


----------



## basilio

The Inuit have hundreds of different words for "Snow" . How many different ways can we define "Stupidity" as demonstrated by Donald Trump ?

*Trump told a reporter his biggest secret: that he is a danger to the American people*
Richard Wolffe
Trump is a particularly stupid man who thinks he is very smart. Perhaps this lies at the root of his monumentally dumb decision to grant Bob Woodward 18 interviews

_‘Our very stupid genius vomited up all manner of secrets that collectively prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he represents the greatest single danger to the fate of both the American people and to himself._’ Photograph: Jonathan Ernst/Reuters
Thu 10 Sep 2020 13.00 EDT

Last modified on Thu 10 Sep 2020 15.06 EDT

464
The Inuit are supposed to have dozens of words to describe snow. The Brits have endless ways to talk about rain. Now it’s time for Americans to delineate all the many ways that Donald Trump is dumb.

If Bob Woodward’s new blockbuster teaches us anything new about the character of the 45th president, it’s that we don’t yet have the words to describe the multiple variants of the vacuum inside his head.

*There’s the stupidity of arrogance, the stupidity of ignorance and his old friend: the stupidity of blatant duplicity. There’s his homicidal stupidity, his traitorous stupidity, his criminally corrupt stupidity and his plain old infantile stupidity.*

Let’s start with the top of this taxonomy: the domain of Donald’s dumbness. At his core, the former reality TV star is a particularly stupid man who thinks he is very smart. Or as he prefers to call his own character, “a very stable genius”.

Perhaps, just maybe, this lies at the root of his monumentally dumb decision to grant Woodward 18 interviews, on the record and on tape.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/10/donald-trump-bob-woodward-interviews


----------



## basilio

It has been pointed out that the US has NOT had the most deaths per million from COVID. It is fact 11th in the world on that metric.
That perhaps we should be paying more attention and challenging how these other other countries have such an appalling death rate .

So should  we examine the Turks and Caicos island, Aruba , Guam, Moldova, Panama, Peru, Kosovo, Brazil, Chile, Argentina , Mexico.? 

Just out of interest I wonder where China which closed down its entire economy for weeks  with quite harsh authoritarian measures sits on this metric of deaths per million ? 
(very, very very small)


----------



## basilio

The problems Guam faces with COVID have become apparent in the past month or so. So what happened. ?

*How the tiny Pacific island of Guam became one of America's coronavirus hotspots*

*Thousands of US sailors on coronavirus-riddled USS Theodore Roosevelt allowed to disembark in Guam
Pacific Beat
Posted Thursday 2 April 2020 at 1:00pm*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...-pressure-after-coronavirus-outbreak/12637704
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-02/coronavirus-us-navy-sailors-to-disembark-in-guam/12113406


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I was wondering...
> There has been a slew of very challenging stories for Donald Trump in the last 24 hours.
> 
> So how would the Trump media supporters respond in terms of refuting/ challenging/ topic changing the issues  that have been raised ?
> 
> 1) That Trump knew about the dangers of COVID  from January 28th but decided to ignore and downplay the risks and effectively undermined the CDC efforts to control the spread of the disease?
> 2) That Donald was basically smitten with Kim Jung In and lost all control of political processes with North Korea ?
> 3) That The Don managed to tell everyone  US  had a new top secret "super duper"  weapons system?
> 4) That the Office of Homeland security ordered intelligence to be rewritten to suit the direction the administration ?
> 5) That Donald Trump spoke of US soldiers who died or were taken prisoner during wars as "losers" and "suckers" while he was supposed to be commemorating their sacrifice .
> 
> The answer of course is that it is impossible to defend or rationalise any of these actions. So the response is the MoXjo summary
> 
> _Obama failed so hard that Russia and China pulled ahead. Bush and Obama caused wars and untold deaths and were constantly disregarding other countries rights. Bush, Obama, and Clinton setup and mishandled the gfc with more lies and lost money.
> Where do you stop with any past President, let alone world leader. Their failures would be to long to list.  MoXjo
> _
> Just throw out a total fabrication of previous/other leaders  history and somehow say that these lies excuse the fact that we cannot with a straight face address  the stupidity, the arrogance and the dangers posed by Donald Trump.



Yes a "slew" of stories against Trump. Not exactly surprising. Throw mud and see what sticks in the polls

You put a lot of stories up backed with little evidence or half truths. Once one gets dismissed you go to smoke and move on to the next one. I linked the names of people in the room with Trump who dismissed the accusations. People who hated Trump. And you still put it up. That says it all.

Perhaps you were to stupid to see where the previous president’s had got us. 

The list above you made is a delusional representation of the stories. I honestly think tds is a mental illness.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> You put a lot of stories up backed with little evidence or half truths. Once one gets dismissed you go to smoke and move on to the next one. I linked the names of people in the room with Trump who dismissed the accusations. People who hated Trump. And you still put it up. That says it all.




Not true, never was , never will be.

Why are there a thousand stories about Trump ? Because every day something new, true and horrible breaks the news.

Yes it is hard to keep hold of every, single, stupid, criminal, venal act Donald Trump undertakes. Frankly in any other political environment one, two or at the most three of these actions would result in such a public and press outcry that the President would be forced out of office.

*But this  new political reality environment he has created is magic isn't it ? *Character is meaningless. Just deny, just lie, just DO IT. Sack anyone who disagrees with you. Destroy the credibility of anyone you don't directly employ by calling them *Enemies Of The People.
*
But back to  the pro Trump spruikers response to these issues.

1) That Trump knew about the dangers of COVID from January 28th but decided to ignore and downplay the risks and effectively undermined the CDC efforts to control the spread of the disease?
2) That Donald was basically smitten with Kim Jung In and lost all control of political processes with North Korea ?
3) That The Don managed to tell everyone US had a new top secret "super duper" weapons system?
4) That the Office of Homeland security ordered intelligence to be rewritten to suit the direction the administration ?

And by the way. Don't imagine the flood of stories around Trumps incompetence and behaviour will slow down. Big names are just biding their time. 
t has happened. What response does the pro trump media have to these scandels ?


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Not true, never was , never will be.
> 
> Why are there a thousand stories about Trump ? Because every day something new, true and horrible breaks the news.
> 
> Yes it is hard to keep hold of every, single, stupid, criminal, venal act Donald Trump undertakes. Frankly in any other political environment one, two or at the most three of these actions would result in such a public and press outcry that the President would be forced out of office.
> 
> *But this  new political reality environment he has created is magic isn't it ? *Character is meaningless. Just deny, just lie, just DO IT. Sack anyone who disagrees with you. Destroy the credibility of anyone you don't directly employ by calling them *Enemies Of The People.
> *
> But back to  the pro Trump spruikers response to these issues.
> 
> 1) That Trump knew about the dangers of COVID from January 28th but decided to ignore and downplay the risks and effectively undermined the CDC efforts to control the spread of the disease?
> 2) That Donald was basically smitten with Kim Jung In and lost all control of political processes with North Korea ?
> 3) That The Don managed to tell everyone US had a new top secret "super duper" weapons system?
> 4) That the Office of Homeland security ordered intelligence to be rewritten to suit the direction the administration ?
> 
> And by the way. Don't imagine the flood of stories around Trumps incompetence and behaviour will slow down. Big names are just biding their time.
> t has happened. What response does the pro trump media have to these scandels ?




Umm because democrat polls were on the down. So they start flinging sht till it sticks. 

You want me to go through that list with a fine tooth comb?

First off put up your evidence of each event. Not anon sources and I will counter. I get sick of countering bogus stories. I don't care for Trump enough to keep wasting time. But I do care enough about the lack of facts that pass as news these days that are colouring people's opinion.
And you are one of the worst offenders for pushing lies bas. But its forgiven as its generally only against Trump

How does it feel to become the man you hate?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> First off put up your evidence of each event.




Lets start with  one. The way in which Trump carried out foreign policy with North Korea, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey.
The sources come from hundreds of hours on interviews by Bob Woodward with White House staff and Trump himself..
I've attached a condensed version. It's clearly more than just a headline but i posted the concluding comments.

*Woodward tells how allies tried to rein in 'childish' Trump's foreign policy*
On the golf course, Lindsey Graham urged restraint on Iran, while James Mattis slept in his clothes in case of emergency, book says


...The president also expressed pride in his relationship with Turkey’s leader, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who in October 2019 persuaded Trump to announce a troop withdrawal from north-eastern Syria, abandoning America’s Kurdish allies, who had taken the lead in the fight against Isis.

The decision was the last straw for an outraged Mattis.
*
“When I was basically directed to do something that I thought went beyond stupid to felony stupid, strategically jeopardizing our place in the world, and everything else. That’s when I quit,” the former defence secretary said.

Mattis predicted Trump’s impact on the country would be lasting.

“This degradation of the American experiment is real. This is tangible. Truth is no longer governing the White House statements,” he said.

Coats, the former intelligence director, fired in July 2019 while he was playing golf on one of Trump’s courses, came to a similar conclusion.

“To him, a lie is not a lie. It’s just what he thinks,” Coats said. “He doesn’t know the difference between the truth and a lie.”*

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/10/donald-trump-bob-woodward-iran-qassem-suleimani-golf


----------



## basilio

Bob Woodward on the rationale and research behind his book.

_“At key decision points,* Rage *shows how Trump’s responses to the crises of 2020 were rooted in the instincts, habits and style he developed during his first three years as president.

*“Rage draws from hundreds of hours of interviews with firsthand witnesses, as well as participants’ notes, emails, diaries, calendars and confidential documents.”*

Speaking to the Guardian about Fear, Woodward said he was dedicated to reporting “what really happened” and said: “Too many people have lost their perspective and become emotionally unhinged about Trump.’”
_
*“I look at my job,” he said, “as: let’s present the rock-solid evidence of what happens. There’s documents, there’s notes, there’s not just the phrase but there’s where they sat and they met and this is what happened. Let the political system respond.”
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/bob-woodward-donald-trump-book-rage-kim-jong-un


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Lets start with  one. The way in which Trump carried out foreign policy with North Korea, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey.
> The sources come from hundreds of hours on interviews by Bob Woodward with White House staff and Trump himself..
> I've attached a condensed version. It's clearly more than just a headline but i posted the concluding comments.
> 
> *Woodward tells how allies tried to rein in 'childish' Trump's foreign policy*
> On the golf course, Lindsey Graham urged restraint on Iran, while James Mattis slept in his clothes in case of emergency, book says
> 
> 
> ...The president also expressed pride in his relationship with Turkey’s leader, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who in October 2019 persuaded Trump to announce a troop withdrawal from north-eastern Syria, abandoning America’s Kurdish allies, who had taken the lead in the fight against Isis.
> 
> The decision was the last straw for an outraged Mattis.
> *
> “When I was basically directed to do something that I thought went beyond stupid to felony stupid, strategically jeopardizing our place in the world, and everything else. That’s when I quit,” the former defence secretary said.
> 
> Mattis predicted Trump’s impact on the country would be lasting.
> 
> “This degradation of the American experiment is real. This is tangible. Truth is no longer governing the White House statements,” he said.
> 
> Coats, the former intelligence director, fired in July 2019 while he was playing golf on one of Trump’s courses, came to a similar conclusion.
> 
> “To him, a lie is not a lie. It’s just what he thinks,” Coats said. “He doesn’t know the difference between the truth and a lie.”*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/10/donald-trump-bob-woodward-iran-qassem-suleimani-golf



That led to the breakthrough peace deal in the middle east between Israel and UAE. That every other president since Truman has failed.
What's the bloody question again?
Did he stop Obamas retarded policies on the middle east- yes.
Did it work? 
Well he did what every other president failed to do.
UAE, Egypt, Oman, and Qatar, all supported Trumps plan. The fact it got through with Netanyahu is a miracle in itself.

And the bs about no plan. You don't just achieve something as historic with no bloody plan. 
If bob didn't cover this then he is an idiot.


> Does the Trump administration have a grand strategy for the Middle East? Conventional wisdom has long held that the answer is "no." Detractors have blasted the president's penchant for disengagement from places like Syria and Afghanistan as proof that the White House doesn't have a clear plan for managing the Middle East, and is in fact actively eyeing the regional exits. Over the last week, however, the administration has proved its critics wrong.
> 
> On August 13, President Donald Trump announced that he had succeeded in brokering a peace deal between Israel and the United Arab Emirates. Under the new agreement, the first of its kind since the 1994 Jordan-Israel peace treaty, the two countries have committed to fully normalizing diplomatic relations in exchange for an Israeli freeze on plans to apply Israeli sovereignty to parts of the West Bank and the Jordan Valley.
> 
> The deal is unquestionably historic. It represents an unalloyed triumph for Israel, which has worked assiduously over the past decade to cultivate deeper political and economic contacts with the Arab states of the Persian Gulf. A decade on, this diplomacy—originally launched on the basis of shared worries over a nearly-nuclear Iran—has become a thriving web of bilateral contacts on everything from trade to scientific collaboration. The aggregate result has strengthened security and prosperity on all sides, with the effect of drawing Jerusalem and Arab capitals much closer together. Last week's announcement was simply a public recognition of this reality.
> 
> But the agreement is also a resounding victory for the Trump administration, which has now made serious progress in its vision for the region.
> 
> The first part of that vision is focused on Iran. Since President Trump's May 2018 decision to withdraw the U.S. from the 2015 nuclear deal with Iran, his administration has embarked upon a broad campaign of "maximum" political and economic pressure against the Islamic Republic. The objective of that approach is by now abundantly clear: not to change Iran's regime, but to curb its international menace and force it back to the international negotiating table. It has also been broadly successful, dramatically reversing the Iranian regime's economic fortunes and generating renewed internal dissent against clerical rule.
> 
> The second prong centers on the administration's so-called "deal of the century" for Israeli-Palestinian peace. Unveiled publicly back in January, the plan is a detailed proposal that, among other things, offers the Palestinian leadership tremendous economic opportunities (some $50 billion in prospective U.S. investment) in exchange for a normalization of ties with Israel. Although the Palestinian leadership has thus far rejected the White House's offer, it has been effectively endorsed by a bevy of Arab nations (including the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Egypt, Morocco and Qatar), as well as by Israel itself, thereby further setting the stage for the current unfolding _detente_.
> 
> Connecting these two poles is what is arguably the Trump administration's most important (but least well-known) regional initiative: the Middle East Strategic Alliance. Since 2017, administration officials have been working quietly with their counterparts in places like Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE and Jordan to build a regional security grouping aimed at "confront[ing] extremism, terrorism, [and] achieving peace, stability and development" in the region. Popularized as an "Arab NATO" against Iran and the Islamic State, the bloc is actually intended to be much more. As administration officials have intimated, the objective is to eventually incorporate countries like Morocco and Israel into the evolving political, economic and military architecture. Last week's peace deal marks a significant step toward that objective.
> 
> If the administration has its way, however, it will be just the beginning. "Now that the ice has been broken, I expect more Arab and Muslim countries will follow the United Arab Emirates' lead," President Trump noted upon announcing the August 13 accord.






What happened to the Kurds was unforgivable. But a power shift is happening across the middle east. The strategy the US military were using under Obama was failing. Under every other US president in fact.

 The middle east changed under Trump from a meatgrinder for generals to play stupid war games, to a place where hope has now grown.

Now what's the next stupid argument you are putting forward?


----------



## Knobby22

Trumps foreign policy has been good for the world and why is counter intuitive.

Firstly he stated and acted on not getting into wars (unlike the Bushes), especially endless wars as they are a waste of money. He has kept his promise and not got into any. Result: the world is realising the USA is not going to get involved and take sides 

Secondly, he is slowly getting out of Europe and the Middle East, also to save money and because oil is less critical. Result: the countries need to normalise relations because they are on their own.

Thirdly, he has shown the USA cannot be trusted  The Kurds in particular learnt the hard way, but the UAE, the Ukrainians etc. also realised it. The Saudis are waking up.

Result - Peace because the days of the white knight riding in to save the day are gone.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> It has been pointed out that the US has NOT had the most deaths per million from COVID. It is fact 11th in the world on that metric.
> That perhaps we should be paying more attention and challenging how these other other countries have such an appalling death rate .
> 
> So should  we examine the Turks and Caicos island, Aruba , Guam, Moldova, Panama, Peru, Kosovo, Brazil, Chile, Argentina , Mexico.?
> 
> Just out of interest I wonder where China which closed down its entire economy for weeks  with quite harsh authoritarian measures sits on this metric of deaths per million ?
> (very, very very small)




China lied, people died.


----------



## dutchie

In 45 mths, Trump has brought peace between Israel, UAE-Bahrain, Kosovo & Serbia, eradicated ISIS, stopped Iranian threats, ended the Mideast chaos & wars that Obama, Biden & Bush started.

 In 47 yrs, all Biden has done is help his brothers & son get rich from foreign countries.


----------



## dutchie

Trump Carefully Composing Tweet That Should Fix Everything
September 11th, 2020





1SHARE
SHARE
SHARE
WASHINGTON, D.C.—Noticing all the problems the country has faced this year, from the coronavirus to civil unrest to general disunity, President Donald Trump has become determined to do something. That’s why, sources say, he sat down to carefully compose the perfect tweet that should fix everything.


“I have to get this just right,” Trump was heard muttering to himself as he sent another abandoned tweet to the drafts folder. “I have two hundred eighty characters to nail this and make everything better.”

Trump has tweeted a lot as president, and many have accused his tweets of often making things worse. But this time Trump is determined to use all his tweeting skill to bring the entire country together, meeting the potential of Twitter in a way it has never been used in its entire history.

“I have to get this just right,” Trump said. “Let’s see. ‘To all the losers...’ No. That’s not right. Ah. ‘To all the haters and losers...’ I’m nearly there. I can feel it.”

When Trump was last seen, he was still hard at work on the tweet, demanding complete silence, except for _Fox & Friends_ playing on the TV.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Trumps foreign policy has been good for the world and why is counter intuitive.
> 
> Firstly he stated and acted on not getting into wars (unlike the Bushes), especially endless wars as they are a waste of money. He has kept his promise and not got into any. Result: the world is realising the USA is not going to get involved and take sides
> 
> Secondly, he is slowly getting out of Europe and the Middle East, also to save money and because oil is less critical. Result: the countries need to normalise relations because they are on their own.
> 
> Thirdly, he has shown the USA cannot be trusted  The Kurds in particular learnt the hard way, but the UAE, the Ukrainians etc. also realised it. The Saudis are waking up.
> 
> Result - Peace because the days of the white knight riding in to save the day are gone.



I was talking to some high rankers out of Iraqi.
They told me to replenish stock with new bombs that they would bomb the sht out of the country to use up old stock. Then charge that country and replenish with newer weapons.
Huge money in it. For some, not for the taxpayers.

Biden has already said he will keep troops in the middle east. Its a dead format in a post Trump world.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Thirdly, he has shown the USA cannot be trusted  The Kurds in particular learnt the hard way, but the UAE, the Ukrainians etc. also realised it. The Saudis are waking up.
> 
> Result - Peace because the days of the white knight riding in to save the day are gone.



We all forget that the Afghans learnt it under Obama. South Vietnamese learnt it. It wasn't just under Trump. There is a long history and a lot more if I really dug deep.

I believe Turkey is a threat under their current tinpot though.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Now what's the next stupid argument you are putting forward?




To you none at all. 

If you read that excerpt from *Rage* in total and still think The Don has done anything close to the right thing with regard to international relations then so be it.

And if you believe Israels annexure of the West Bank is a "peace plan" your sadly mistaken.
It's just a criminal piece of *Lebensraum *politics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427

____________________________
You asked for evidence based arguments about Donald Trumps fitness to be President.
Bob Woodward spent hundreds of hours interviewing administration officials  and Trump himself across domestic policy , foreign policy, international relations and government response to the deadly COVID virus.

He pulled  it all together including the final moments when General Mathis had to decide that "stupid to felony stupid" was just too far.

And then you call these these "stupid arguments".


----------



## basilio

_The final lines of Woodward’s last book may linger in the minds of many readers.

John Dowd, a lawyer who worked for the president during the Mueller investigation into Russian election interference and links between the Trump campaign and Moscow, was one of Woodward’s sources.

“In the man and his presidency Dowd had seen the tragic flaw,” Woodward wrote.
_
*“In the political back-and-forth, the evasions, the denials, the tweeting, the obscuring, crying ‘Fake News’, the indignation, Trump had one overriding problem that Dowd knew but could not bring himself to say to the president: ‘You’re a xucking liar.’”
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/bob-woodward-donald-trump-book-rage-kim-jong-un


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> Trumps foreign policy has been good for the world and why is counter intuitive.
> 
> Firstly he stated and acted on not getting into wars (unlike the Bushes), especially endless wars as they are a waste of money. He has kept his promise and not got into any. Result: the world is realising the USA is not going to get involved and take sides
> 
> Secondly, he is slowly getting out of Europe and the Middle East, also to save money and because oil is less critical. Result: the countries need to normalise relations because they are on their own.
> 
> Thirdly, he has shown the USA cannot be trusted  The Kurds in particular learnt the hard way, but the UAE, the Ukrainians etc. also realised it. The Saudis are waking up.
> 
> Result - Peace because the days of the white knight riding in to save the day are gone.




That is one interesting perspective Knobby.  I wonder if it is your interpretation ?
I would take another view on these points

The US has taken an interventionist  role in wars around the world *because they saw it in their economic and political interest. *They were protecting US economic interests and projecting US political power to contain/confront USSR/Russia and China.

The most recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were naked interventions to steal oil and somehow stop the terrorism they themselves had fermented.

*Getting out of Europe and Middle East ? *Sure essentially just undermine the economic and political relationships that have been the  points of Western solidarity in the post war world. And then watch  the political impact Russia and China play in those regions.
*
Proving the US can't be trusted ? *Well that is a big one isn't it ? Just lay it on the line that the US policies  to any country can be torn up on a whim depending on how the President feels about their current leader, whether Fox news has a juicy piece of propaganda that puts them in bad light, or if one of his pet projects is not approved and supported by the country.

Are you suggesting these changes represent an improvement of US foreign policy ?

__________________________

It also bears mentioning that US foreign policy under Trump has
1) Undermined the UN and a whole range of international agreements around health, conservation, international order
2) Withdrawal from  international Climate Change action and undermining local and international efforts to address the most critical  issue facing the world
3) Systematically supporting and encouraging the most aggressive right wing leaders across the world while undermining democratic countries. His support for Brazil, Hungary, Poland, Turkey are clear examples.

Again are these positive changes to US foreign policy ?


----------



## bellenuit

*What he really thinks: Trump mocks Christians, calls them "fools" and "schmucks"*

https://www.salon.com/2020/09/11/wh...nEbmMvpbuRpiPFmtWZFfocV0hUSNy_r7UYsVp_65hldDY

IMO Trump is correct on some things, it's just his dishonesty about it that is the huge issue. Although I wouldn't hold such an opinion about most Christians, certainly many of the US style evangelicals are "fools" and "schmucks" which is fully exemplified by their following of some quite blatantly corrupt pastors, many of these leaders being gathered for that infamous photo of the hands on Trump's head. 

Some fo the opinions he express about the Vietnam war too were not too far off the point and would have been a view shared by many on the Left during the 80s. Again, it's his pretence about it that becomes an issue, particularly when he holds the role of CIC.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> To you none at all.
> 
> If you read that excerpt from *Rage* in total and still think The Don has done anything close to the right thing with regard to international relations then so be it.
> 
> And if you believe Israels annexure of the West Bank is a "peace plan" your sadly mistaken.
> It's just a criminal piece of *Lebensraum *politics.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427



Do you know how many times bob has fabricated stories?
Not that it surprises me this is the source you run to. If its to point out that Trump embellished the truth, well that's already known. If its criminal then point to the actual evidence to condemn him. Like the millions of others desperately searching for dirt.

Palestinians will likely double the land they have under the plan. BBC is known Palestinian simps
Its a breakthrough deal most can't stomach because of Trump. I doubt Palestinians will take it. But they are losing friends fast.

On middle east, Europe, China, Trump has done the right thing. The UN is bloody useless and needed a good shake out.

The climate change policy targeted the US and let China pollute away. Not going to fly any more.


----------



## basilio




----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


>




I stopped after "nuke nobody has seen before". That's not giving away anything. I'll give out a US secret:
"US has a laser no one else has seen before".

Oh no, bob Woodward write a book about me then put me on the even trashier CNN.


----------



## noirua

*Trump's law and order pivot appears to have succeeded with 'a big catch,' poll suggests*

12 September




__





						Trump's law and order pivot appears to have succeeded with 'a big catch,' poll suggests
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## DB008

Obama used FBI to spy on US presidential candidate.


*Former NSA Head Lawyer Testifies: The Trump Team Was
Subject to Political Surveillance*​
The topic of Trump-Russia collusion has been promulgated by many in the legacy news media. Often, skeptics of this narrative are pushed by institutional news media towards conservative news outlets. In recent days, there has been a major revelation buried in a _Lawfare_ article, a publication that is no ally of the right.​​At _Lawfare_, former National Security Agency general counsel Stewart Baker wrote that he will be testifying before the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (“PCLOB”) in regards to Russiagate. The PCLOB is an independent agency within the Executive Branch; its purpose is to act as a check on government surveillance after the establishment of the USA PATRIOT Act.​​After two notable national security crises (9/11 and Spygate), Baker has interjected himself into the debate. On September 8th, Baker published an article at _Lawfare_ that hints to his testimony before the PCLOB. His testimony suggests that “Like It or Not, Trump Has a Point: FISA Reform and the Appearance of Partisanship in Intelligence Investigations.”​​The key points from Baker’s testimony are as follows:​
*Campaign Mudslinging:*Baker contends that the Hillary Clinton campaign, in an attempt to deflect from the FBI investigation into her handling of the private email server, sought to tarnish the Trump campaign with an FBI investigation of its own. “The Clinton Campaign, like any other, had assembled opposition research files on Trump. Focusing some of that research on his disturbing affinity for Vladimir Putin was not an exactly original idea.”
*Steele Dossier: The DNC’s general counsel, Mark Elias, paid Glenn Simpson’s firm, Fusion GPS, $60,000 per month of DNC funds for opposition research. DNC funds were used to pay Christopher Steele, a “free-lance former British intelligence officer with credibility at the FBI on Russian issues.” Elias then instructed Glenn Simpson to report his research only to Elias so as to be protected under attorney-client privilege. As part of Steele’s work, he recruited a Russian in Washington, D.C. as a sub source who in turn provided what the Senate Intelligence Committee referred to as part of “a Russian disinformation campaign.”*
*Steele Lobbied the National Security Agencies: *After the FBI terminated its relationship with Christopher Steele over a leak, Steele used a backchannel through Bruce Ohr. Ohr, who was associate deputy attorney general at the FBI, laundered his information the FBI top-brass Andrew McCabe, the then Deputy Director of the FBI, who acted as an informal conduit for Steele to later provide more information.
*The Carter Page FISA Application: *The first FISA application on Carter Page relies on the Steele Dossier. “Fully a third of this section is based on Steele’s reports, and the dossier provides the only support for the central allegation of the application – that Russia hacked and leaked Clinton campaign emails _as part of an agreement with members of the Trump campaign_.” This allegation was never corroborated by the FBI or by Robert Mueller’s Special Counsel. Further, Baker alleges, “All these were grounded on false statements in a dossier paid for by the party in power and designed to discredit the party trying to unseat it.”
*Reverse Targeting with FISA:* The Obama Administration understood that it could monitor Russian Ambassador Kislyak’s conversation with Trump Transition team member Michael Flynn if Kislyak was the “target of the surveillance.” This sort of monitoring coincides with the Obama Administrations’ 2015 wiretapping of Israeli officials that “offered a rich vein of political intelligence about where Republicans stood, what they were planning, and even whether they had the votes to overturn the administration’s policies.” As it turns out, the Israelis suspected that “they were being spied on.”
*Targeting of Michael Flynn:* Baker writes of the Michael Flynn conversations with the Russian Ambassador, “in all of the accounts of the meeting, there’s no sign any of the participants cared what the ambassador had said; as with the Israeli intercepts, it was the American side of the conversation that had the Obama White House exercised.” Further, the Logan Act implications of Flynn’s conversation is “preposterous,” as “it certainly doesn’t prevent an incoming administration from talking to foreign leaders before inauguration day.” The Obama Administration had a certain dislike of General Flynn. Baker writes, “President Obama himself raised questions at the meeting about whether intelligence should be withheld from the incoming team; Flynn was the only candidate for such an exclusion.”
*Leaking FISA Contents: “*It is not unreasonable to conclude that the White House had not only encouraged a criminal investigation of Flynn under the Logan Act but had also leaked his exposure to the press – along with the contents of a wiretap.” Baker further notes that the leak of FISA wiretap contents “to attack an American was unprecedented,” and this inevitably ended Flynn’s career.


https://bongino.com/former-nsa-head...mp-team-was-subject-to-political-surveillance





*Rep. Nunes on Mueller team wiping phones in the face of DOJ investigation*​
Rumble — Congressman Devin Nunes discusses the news that multiple members of Special Counsel Mueller's team wiped their phones after DOJ Inspector General Michael Horowitz opened his investigation into the opening of Crossfire Hurricane and Kamala Harris' opinion on the Russia collusion hoax on 'Sunday Morning Futures with Maria Bartiromo,' September 13, 2020.​

https://rumble.com/vaemkz-rep.-nunes-on-mueller-team-wiping-phones-in-face-of-doj-investigation.html


.​


----------



## IFocus

In 2018, Bongino said of himself, "My entire life right now is about owning the libs. That's it."[17][5] He is a staunch supporter of President Donald Trump.[12]

Bongino has called the investigation of the alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections a "total scam,"[18] and is a proponent of the Spygate conspiracy theory.[19] In May 2018, Bongino was quoted by Trump in a tweet, as Bongino attacked former CIA Director John O. Brennan. Bongino was quoted as saying Brennan "has disgraced the entire Intelligence Community. He is the one man who is largely responsible for the destruction of American's faith in the Intelligence Community and in some people at the top of the FBI."[20] Bongino was also quoted as alleging that Brennan was "worried about staying out of jail."[20]

In May 2018, after Republican Congressman Trey Gowdy and some conservative legal experts challenged Trump's claims that the FBI had spied on his 2016 presidential campaign, Bongino claimed Gowdy had been "fooled" by the Department of Justice.[21] In February 2019, Bongino accused Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein of attempting a coup against Trump.[22]

Bongino is a member of Groundswell, a coalition of conservative and libertarian activists working to advance conservative causes.[23]

In 2019, Bongino published _Exonerated: The Failed Takedown of President Donald Trump by the Swamp_. It was on _The New York Times_ Best Seller list with an asterisk noting that the book benefited from bulk sales.[24] In August 2020, Bongino denied that his book benefited from bulk sales, maintaining that the only event at which books were bought in bulk took place over a month after his book appeared on the list.[25]


----------



## dutchie

This is why leftists hate Donald Trump


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> This is why leftists hate Donald Trump
> 
> 
> View attachment 109177



That is a terrible graph. I can't believe how much human trafficking has increased under Trump.


----------



## dutchie

It's going to get extremely ugly in the USA before, during and after the election, irrespective of who wins.

Civil war  --    Republicans and Patriots -  (led by Trump) ---   Vs  ---     Communists  (Democrats, BLM, Antifa) - (Led by Soros)


----------



## basilio

The Trump presidency has been four years of him making shocking and hate-filled remarks. Is there any message, is there anything he could do, anything he could say, anything he could put out that would cause him to lose his most loyal supporters?”

Want to see just how far Real Trump supporters will follow ? This focus group brought a number of Trump supporters together to preview a series of ads  that could be run during the election. Begins at 1 min mark


----------



## basilio

Former CIA Director John Brennan is as conservative a person as  one would expect an ex  CIA Director to be,
He has expressed grave concerns about the direction Trump and Barr are taking  to undermine the legitimacy of the upcoming election.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Former CIA Director John Brennan is as conservative a person as  one would expect an ex  CIA Director to be,
> He has expressed grave concerns about the direction Trump and Barr are taking  to undermine the legitimacy of the upcoming election.




You mean the guy who was the main focus in the Durham investigations at one stage. From what I know he or Comey are already caught in a lie. 

He is a well known lying shtbag as well.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> The Trump presidency has been four years of him making shocking and hate-filled remarks. Is there any message, is there anything he could do, anything he could say, anything he could put out that would cause him to lose his most loyal supporters?”
> 
> Want to see just how far Real Trump supporters will follow ? This focus group brought a number of Trump supporters together to preview a series of ads  that could be run during the election. Begins at 1 min mark





Focus group....... 6  (leftist plants).

I'm sure you would prefer this.....


----------



## IFocus

Interesting comments coming from early voters mostly voting for Biden was that they felt Trump was a threat to US democracy 1st and of course his failure / disinterest  and lying about COVID.

I was surprised they picked up on the  attack on democracy and that's the reason they were voting early.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> Focus group....... 6 (leftist plants).




Ha Haa
Are they too dog xhit dumb and vicious to be real trump supporters Dutchie ?
Or do you just go reflex "Fake news" whenever you don't like what you see ?

Absolutely no doubt these folks were proud to be on National TV sticking up for The Don in the best way they could.

What was the best gotcha Dutchie ? The folks agreeing to electrify  statutes so that protesters would get fried ?  Or what about considering that children could indeed do many adult jobs (because they wouldn't catch COVID) but perhaps they should be tall enough to see over a counter

Or maybe it was proposing the elections should be a best of three exercise to make it more entertaining ?
Just in case anyone missed the fun check it out again.








						MUST SEE: Trump Supporters in Focus Group with Fake Trump Ads on Colbert | theOUTfront
					






					theoutfront.com


----------



## DB008

​


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> He is a well known lying shtbag as well.




So thats *your *go to position Moxy ? Just trash anyone who stands up to to Trump and points out how dangerous the situation is becoming as a result of Trumps attacks on the electoral system  which underpins the legitimacy  of  the US political system.  

This is the opinion piece in the New York Times that Brennan was responding to. 

*What’s at Stake in This Election? The American Democratic Experiment*
Trump’s former director of national intelligence on how to firmly and unambiguously reassure all Americans that their votes will be counted.

By Dan Coats
Mr. Coats served as the director of national intelligence from 2017 to 2019.

Sept. 17, 2020













 Credit...Mark Makela for The New York Times

We hear often that the November election is the most consequential in our lifetime. But the importance of the election is not just which candidate or which party wins. Voters also face the question of whether the American democratic experiment, one of the boldest political *innovations in human history, will survive.

Our democracy’s enemies, foreign and domestic, want us to concede in advance that our voting systems are faulty or fraudulent; that sinister conspiracies have distorted the political will of the people; that our public discourse has been perverted by the news media and social networks riddled with prejudice, lies and ill will; that judicial institutions, law enforcement and even national security have been twisted, misused and misdirected to create anxiety and conflict, not justice and social peace.

If those are the results of this tumultuous election year, we are lost, no matter which candidate wins. No American, and certainly no American leader, should want such an outcome. Total destruction and sowing salt in the earth of American democracy is a catastrophe well beyond simple defeat and a poison for generations. An electoral victory on these terms would be no victory at all. The judgment of history, reflecting on the death of enlightened democracy, would be harsh.*

The most urgent task American leaders face is to ensure that the election’s results are accepted as legitimate. Electoral legitimacy is the essential linchpin of our entire political culture. We should see the challenge clearly in advance and take immediate action to respond.

The most important part of an effective response is to finally, at long last, forge a genuinely bipartisan effort to save our democracy, rejecting the vicious partisanship that has disabled and destabilized government for too long. If we cannot find common ground now, on this core issue at the very heart of our endangered system, we never will.

Our key goal should be reassurance. We must firmly, unambiguously reassure all Americans that their vote will be counted, that it will matter, that the people’s will expressed through their votes will not be questioned and will be respected and accepted. I propose that Congress creates a new mechanism to help accomplish this purpose. It should create a supremely high-level bipartisan and nonpartisan commission to oversee the election. This commission would not circumvent existing electoral reporting systems or those that tabulate, evaluate or certify the results. But it would monitor those mechanisms and confirm for the public that the laws and regulations governing them have been scrupulously and expeditiously followed — or that violations have been exposed and dealt with — without political prejudice and without regard to political interests of either party.

Also, this commission would be responsible for monitoring those forces that seek to harm our electoral system through interference, fraud, disinformation or other distortions. These would be exposed to the American people in a timely manner and referred to appropriate law enforcement agencies and national security entities.

Such a commission must be composed of national leaders personally committed — by oath — to put partisan politics aside even in the midst of an electoral contest of such importance. They would accept as a personal moral responsibility to put the integrity and fairness of the election process above everything else, making public reassurance their goal.

Commission members undertaking this high, historic responsibility should come from both parties and could include congressional leaders, current and former governors, “elder statespersons,” former national security leaders, perhaps the former Supreme Court justices David Souter and Anthony Kennedy, and business leaders from social media companies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/...on=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
This commission would be created by emergency legislative action. During that process, its precise mandate, composition, powers and resources would be defined. Among other aspects, the legislation would define the relationship between the commission and the intelligence and law enforcement communities with the capability necessary for the commission’s work. And it would define how the commission would work with all the individual states.

Congressional leaders must see the need as urgent and move quickly with common purpose. Seeking broad bipartisan unity on such an initiative at such a fraught time goes against the nature of the political creatures we have become. But this is the moment and this is the issue that demands a higher patriotism. No member of Congress could have any valid reason to reject any step that could contribute to the fundamental health of our Republic. With what should be the unanimous support of Congress, the legislation must call upon the election campaigns of both parties to commit in advance to respect the findings of the commission. Both presidential candidates should be called upon to make such personal commitments of their own.

*If we fail to take every conceivable effort to ensure the integrity of our election, the winners will not be Donald Trump or Joe Biden, Republicans or Democrats. The only winners will be Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping and Ali Khamenei. No one who supports a healthy democracy could want that.*

Dan Coats was the director of national intelligence from 2017 to 2019. He served as a U.S. senator from Indiana from 1989 to 1999 and again from 2010 to 2016. From 2001 to 2005 he was the U.S. ambassador to Germany. Currently, Mr. Coats is a senior adviser with the law firm King & Spalding.








						Opinion | What’s at Stake in This Election? The American Democratic Experiment
					

Trump’s former director of national intelligence on how to firmly and unambiguously reassure all Americans that their votes will be counted.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## basilio

*Overnight Donald Trump was accused of sexual assault. But you're not seeing the story on front pages. *

Overnight, US President Donald Trump was accused of an incident of sexual assault.
A former model, Amy Dorris, told _The Guardian_ of an incident in September 1997, in which a then 51-year-old Trump allegedly forced his tongue down her throat while she was in his VIP box at the US Open.

She talks about being groped on her butt, breasts and back in a grip so tight she couldn't escape during an attack that left her feeling "sick" and "violated."

....Twenty-five other women have come forward since 2016 and accused Donald Trump of grabbing, groping, or raping them in the decades since the 1970s, with 43 more instances detailed by women in _All the President's Women: Donald Trump and the Making of a Predator,_ which was released last year.

These women are diplomats, ambassadors, yoga teachers, actresses and makeup artists, to name a few. Their stories are set in changing rooms, airplanes, nightclubs, dinner tables, at a Mother's Day brunch, a Ray Charles concert, and at Trump Tower.

.....Probably because Trump has already proven he's untouchable to these sorts of allegations while he sits inside the White House, so much so there's almost no point, it seems, in getting outraged. It's not even the first alleged assault by Trump detailed to have taken place at the US Open. Karena Virginia has accused him of inappropriately touching her at the same event in 1998.

Instead of repetition building momentum, account after account has somehow instead created a flatlining of the story. 









						Overnight Donald Trump was accused of sexual assault. But you're not seeing the story on front pages.
					

It's not the first time.




					www.mamamia.com.au
				




_________________________________________________________
This allegation was originally was originally posted in The Guardian. 

... Dorris, who lives in Florida, provided the Guardian with evidence to support her account of her encounters with Trump, including her ticket to the US Open and six photos showing her with the real estate magnate over several days in New York. Trump was 51 at the time and married to his second wife, Marla Maples. 

Her account was also corroborated by several people she confided in about the incident. They include a friend in New York and Dorris’s mother, both of whom she called immediately after the alleged incident, as well as a therapist and friends she spoke to in the years since. All said Dorris had shared with them details of the alleged incident that matched what she later told the Guardian. 









						Donald Trump accused of sexual assault by former model Amy Dorris
					

Exclusive: Amy Dorris alleges Trump forced his tongue down her throat and groped her at 1997 US Open




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dutchie

Communists are happy to replace Trump with this.....


----------



## dutchie

All you Communists on this forum:
1. Under communism there is *no forum*.
2. There is *no democracy*.
3. There are *no human rights.*
4. There is *only death*
*   Current Communist Body Count: 149,469,610*


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> *Overnight Donald Trump was accused of sexual assault. But you're not seeing the story on front pages. *
> 
> Overnight, US President Donald Trump was accused of an incident of sexual assault.
> A former model, Amy Dorris, told _The Guardian_ of an incident in September 1997, in which a then 51-year-old Trump allegedly forced his tongue down her throat while she was in his VIP box at the US Open.
> 
> She talks about being groped on her butt, breasts and back in a grip so tight she couldn't escape during an attack that left her feeling "sick" and "violated."
> 
> ....Twenty-five other women have come forward since 2016 and accused Donald Trump of grabbing, groping, or raping them in the decades since the 1970s, with 43 more instances detailed by women in _All the President's Women: Donald Trump and the Making of a Predator,_ which was released last year.
> 
> These women are diplomats, ambassadors, yoga teachers, actresses and makeup artists, to name a few. Their stories are set in changing rooms, airplanes, nightclubs, dinner tables, at a Mother's Day brunch, a Ray Charles concert, and at Trump Tower.
> 
> .....Probably because Trump has already proven he's untouchable to these sorts of allegations while he sits inside the White House, so much so there's almost no point, it seems, in getting outraged. It's not even the first alleged assault by Trump detailed to have taken place at the US Open. Karena Virginia has accused him of inappropriately touching her at the same event in 1998.
> 
> Instead of repetition building momentum, account after account has somehow instead created a flatlining of the story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overnight Donald Trump was accused of sexual assault. But you're not seeing the story on front pages.
> 
> 
> It's not the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mamamia.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> This allegation was originally was originally posted in The Guardian.
> 
> ... Dorris, who lives in Florida, provided the Guardian with evidence to support her account of her encounters with Trump, including her ticket to the US Open and six photos showing her with the real estate magnate over several days in New York. Trump was 51 at the time and married to his second wife, Marla Maples.
> 
> Her account was also corroborated by several people she confided in about the incident. They include a friend in New York and Dorris’s mother, both of whom she called immediately after the alleged incident, as well as a therapist and friends she spoke to in the years since. All said Dorris had shared with them details of the alleged incident that matched what she later told the Guardian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump accused of sexual assault by former model Amy Dorris
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Amy Dorris alleges Trump forced his tongue down her throat and groped her at 1997 US Open
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

You certainly know how to "poison the well"  don't you Dutchie ? 

That was a particularly choice piece of filth mate. 

Zero truth. Maximum destruction of  peoples lives. 

Maximum destruction of respect for the 25 people who have publicly noted their  rape/assault/abuse experience at the hands of  the current President of the United States.

The story I quoted asked just that question. *How is it that these days any accustion against Donald Trump, no matter how well supported by evidence,  is disregarded and the person who was abused is  vilified. ? *

And on cue you throw up a prime example of such behaviour.  Classy ...not..


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> You certainly know how to "poison the well"  don't you Dutchie ?
> 
> That was a particularly choice piece of filth mate.
> 
> Zero truth. Maximum destruction of  peoples lives.
> 
> Maximum destruction of respect for the 25 people who have publicly noted their  rape/assault/abuse experience at the hands of  the current President of the United States.
> 
> The story I quoted asked just that question. *How is it that these days any accustion against Donald Trump, no matter how well supported by evidence,  is disregarded and the person who was abused is  vilified. ? *
> 
> And on cue you throw up a prime example of such behaviour.  Classy ...not..



You are so funny basilio.
25? Statistically you would have thought one of them would have stuck.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> You are so funny basilio.
> 25? Statistically you would have thought one of them would have stuck.




Perhaps all we really needed to hear was the boasting from the arch groper himself.


----------



## basilio

The World According To Trump
*Donald “Grab ’Em by the Pussy” Trump Thinks People Should Be Fired for Disrespecting Women*
Yet somehow he remains employed. 




By Bess Levin

.... Trump has not said if he’ll be resigning from the office of the presidency in light of the rape allegation against him, or if he’s decided to provide a DNA sample to *E. Jean Carroll*’s lawyers to see if it matches the genetic material on the dress she says she was wearing when he allegedly assaulted her in a dressing room in the ’90s. Or if he still thinks it’s acceptable to grab women by the genitals, or kiss women without their consent, or “moving on” them “like a bitch.” Perhaps he’ll address such issues in a follow-up tweet. 









						Donald “Grab ’Em by the Pussy” Trump Thinks People Should Be Fired for Disrespecting Women
					

Yet somehow he remains employed.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> You certainly know how to "poison the well"  don't you Dutchie ?
> 
> That was a particularly choice piece of filth mate.
> 
> Zero truth. Maximum destruction of  peoples lives.
> 
> Maximum destruction of respect for the 25 people who have publicly noted their  rape/assault/abuse experience at the hands of  the current President of the United States.
> 
> The story I quoted asked just that question. *How is it that these days any accustion against Donald Trump, no matter how well supported by evidence,  is disregarded and the person who was abused is  vilified. ? *
> 
> And on cue you throw up a prime example of such behaviour.  Classy ...not..




I wonder what you and your communist friends are going to throw at the Supreme Court nominee if it's a woman?


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> I wonder what you and your communist friends are going to throw at the Supreme Court nominee if it's a woman?



How about just following  the Senate  Republician precedent  set in 2018 and defer the decision until after the election ?
And you can get rid of the  lying, gratuitous  political  slurs as well Dutchie.  It doesn't become this forum.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> So thats *your *go to position Moxy ? Just trash anyone who stands up to to Trump and points out how dangerous the situation is becoming as a result of Trumps attacks on the electoral system  which underpins the legitimacy  of  the US political system.
> 
> This is the opinion piece in the New York Times that Brennan was responding to.
> 
> *What’s at Stake in This Election? The American Democratic Experiment*
> Trump’s former director of national intelligence on how to firmly and unambiguously reassure all Americans that their votes will be counted.
> 
> By Dan Coats
> Mr. Coats served as the director of national intelligence from 2017 to 2019.
> 
> Sept. 17, 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 111971
> 
> View attachment 111972
> 
> Credit...Mark Makela for The New York Times
> 
> We hear often that the November election is the most consequential in our lifetime. But the importance of the election is not just which candidate or which party wins. Voters also face the question of whether the American democratic experiment, one of the boldest political *innovations in human history, will survive.
> 
> Our democracy’s enemies, foreign and domestic, want us to concede in advance that our voting systems are faulty or fraudulent; that sinister conspiracies have distorted the political will of the people; that our public discourse has been perverted by the news media and social networks riddled with prejudice, lies and ill will; that judicial institutions, law enforcement and even national security have been twisted, misused and misdirected to create anxiety and conflict, not justice and social peace.
> 
> If those are the results of this tumultuous election year, we are lost, no matter which candidate wins. No American, and certainly no American leader, should want such an outcome. Total destruction and sowing salt in the earth of American democracy is a catastrophe well beyond simple defeat and a poison for generations. An electoral victory on these terms would be no victory at all. The judgment of history, reflecting on the death of enlightened democracy, would be harsh.*
> 
> The most urgent task American leaders face is to ensure that the election’s results are accepted as legitimate. Electoral legitimacy is the essential linchpin of our entire political culture. We should see the challenge clearly in advance and take immediate action to respond.
> 
> The most important part of an effective response is to finally, at long last, forge a genuinely bipartisan effort to save our democracy, rejecting the vicious partisanship that has disabled and destabilized government for too long. If we cannot find common ground now, on this core issue at the very heart of our endangered system, we never will.
> 
> Our key goal should be reassurance. We must firmly, unambiguously reassure all Americans that their vote will be counted, that it will matter, that the people’s will expressed through their votes will not be questioned and will be respected and accepted. I propose that Congress creates a new mechanism to help accomplish this purpose. It should create a supremely high-level bipartisan and nonpartisan commission to oversee the election. This commission would not circumvent existing electoral reporting systems or those that tabulate, evaluate or certify the results. But it would monitor those mechanisms and confirm for the public that the laws and regulations governing them have been scrupulously and expeditiously followed — or that violations have been exposed and dealt with — without political prejudice and without regard to political interests of either party.
> 
> Also, this commission would be responsible for monitoring those forces that seek to harm our electoral system through interference, fraud, disinformation or other distortions. These would be exposed to the American people in a timely manner and referred to appropriate law enforcement agencies and national security entities.
> 
> Such a commission must be composed of national leaders personally committed — by oath — to put partisan politics aside even in the midst of an electoral contest of such importance. They would accept as a personal moral responsibility to put the integrity and fairness of the election process above everything else, making public reassurance their goal.
> 
> Commission members undertaking this high, historic responsibility should come from both parties and could include congressional leaders, current and former governors, “elder statespersons,” former national security leaders, perhaps the former Supreme Court justices David Souter and Anthony Kennedy, and business leaders from social media companies.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/arts/television/chris-rock-fargo.html?action=click&algo=bandit-all-surfaces_desk_filter&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=571306880&impression_id=336d7202-fa5b-11ea-b22d-f187f10a0cec&index=2&pgtype=Article®ion=ccolumn&req_id=494774137&surface=home-featured&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
> This commission would be created by emergency legislative action. During that process, its precise mandate, composition, powers and resources would be defined. Among other aspects, the legislation would define the relationship between the commission and the intelligence and law enforcement communities with the capability necessary for the commission’s work. And it would define how the commission would work with all the individual states.
> 
> Congressional leaders must see the need as urgent and move quickly with common purpose. Seeking broad bipartisan unity on such an initiative at such a fraught time goes against the nature of the political creatures we have become. But this is the moment and this is the issue that demands a higher patriotism. No member of Congress could have any valid reason to reject any step that could contribute to the fundamental health of our Republic. With what should be the unanimous support of Congress, the legislation must call upon the election campaigns of both parties to commit in advance to respect the findings of the commission. Both presidential candidates should be called upon to make such personal commitments of their own.
> 
> *If we fail to take every conceivable effort to ensure the integrity of our election, the winners will not be Donald Trump or Joe Biden, Republicans or Democrats. The only winners will be Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping and Ali Khamenei. No one who supports a healthy democracy could want that.*
> 
> Dan Coats was the director of national intelligence from 2017 to 2019. He served as a U.S. senator from Indiana from 1989 to 1999 and again from 2010 to 2016. From 2001 to 2005 he was the U.S. ambassador to Germany. Currently, Mr. Coats is a senior adviser with the law firm King & Spalding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | What’s at Stake in This Election? The American Democratic Experiment
> 
> 
> Trump’s former director of national intelligence on how to firmly and unambiguously reassure all Americans that their votes will be counted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



You put up the guy that was a known liar. Who helped spy on a candidate for potus. Pretty sure that whole investigation is bigger then the toss trash you dug up.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> How about just following  the Senate  Republician precedent  set in 2018 and defer the decision until after the election ?
> And you can get rid of the  lying, gratuitous  political  slurs as well Dutchie.  It doesn't become this forum.



She was free to retire under Obama at 80 years old. She didn't. Obama wasn't in control of the senate so any pick he made was likely not going to happen.

The lying crap that happened during kavanaugh was disgusting. Democrats deserve zero concessions.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> How about just following  the Senate  Republician precedent  set in 2018 and defer the decision until after the election ?
> And you can get rid of the  lying, gratuitous  political  slurs as well Dutchie.  It doesn't become this forum.




Genius Trump Nominates Joe Biden To Supreme Court Forcing Dems To Accuse Him Of Sexual Assault
September 20th, 2020




857Shares
662SHARE
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WASHINGTON, D.C.—Trump has announced his pick for Supreme Court justice: Joe Biden. By nominating Biden, Trump has forced the Dems' hands, making them believe the sexual assault claims and allegations of inappropriate, creepy behavior against the former vice president.

The "4D chess" move forced Dems to immediately accuse Joe Biden of sexual assault and reverse their position on the current claims against him.
"We now believe Tara Reade," said a somber Kamala Harris, "and we will do everything in our power to destroy this man's life."
In addition to believing current claims against Joe Biden, Democrats also immediately dug up 417 new accusers against Joe Biden. He has been accused of participating in wild frat parties, drunken keggers, and something called the "Devil's Triangle," which Dems say is either a Satanic ritual or code for a sexual practice or "maybe both."
"It's clear this man is dangerous and cannot be trusted," said Nancy Pelosi. "We call on the Senate to turn down his nomination and run him out of public life."
Biden released a statement, saying, "I just want to go home and see my grandkids again." His mic was cut off and he was pulled off the stage with a shepherd's crook.


----------



## basilio

The death of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg just months before the 2020 presidential election sets a political dilemma for some Republican senators, who in 2016 said that Supreme Court vacancies should not be filled near the end of a president's term. 
What did they say then ?


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> The death of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg just months before the 2020 presidential election sets a political dilemma for some Republican senators, who in 2016 said that Supreme Court vacancies should not be filled near the end of a president's term.
> What did they say then ?





Republicans - "It's OK to nominate a new Supreme Court Judge just before the election if it suits us."
Democrats   - "It's OK to nominate a new Supreme Court Judge just before the election if it suits us."


----------



## moXJO

It all depends who holds the senate. If dems held the senate then their pick would have got green lighted.

But they didn't, so they had zero chance. And ended up on a permawhinge ever since.

 Trump still needs 1 of the 3 rinos to vote or it won't go through.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> Republicans - "It's OK to nominate a new Supreme Court Judge just before the election if it suits us."
> Democrats   - "It's OK to nominate a new Supreme Court Judge just before the election if it suits us."




*Untrue. *In any way, shape or form.

Republicans undermined the process of replacing Supreme Court judges when they died by *refusing to even hear *President Obamas nominee in March 2016. Hand on heart they said the Nation should have a voice in deciding the next judge by blocking the process.

In 2020, *less than two months before the election with millions of people already voting* they are determined to ram through a new  Supreme Court judge in a total reversal of their 2016 behaviour.









						Merrick Garland Supreme Court nomination - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> *Untrue. *In any way, shape or form.
> 
> Republicans undermined the process of replacing Supreme Court judges when they died by *refusing to even hear *President Obamas nominee in March 2016. Hand on heart they said the Nation should have a voice in deciding the next judge by blocking the process.
> 
> In 2020, *less than two months before the election with millions of people already voting* they are determined to ram through a new  Supreme Court judge in a total reversal of their 2016 behaviour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merrick Garland Supreme Court nomination - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org




Boo hoo hoo .  Only we are good and righteous. Orange man bad. Boo hoo hoo


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> Boo hoo hoo .  Only we are good and righteous. Orange man bad. Boo hoo hoo




You don't get past three letter words and one syllable responses do you Dutchie ?


----------



## Joe Blow

Folks could we please raise the level of debate in this thread. It would be nice to have some substance and discussion of real issues instead of playground stuff and partisan talking points.

Why not actually dissect ideas and policy and discuss the merits or otherwise of them? Political tribalism is boring and a waste of time and energy. 

Please offer up something interesting. Thanks.


----------



## moXJO

Have we had one trump policy even mentioned on here?

I doubt anyone would know of any successful policies. Its basically been media snippet half truths from Trump hating loons. 

He has had some huge successes and big failures. Probably one of the most complex presidential terms from memory.


----------



## basilio

A  Pre Trump view of Amercian Exceptionalism.


----------



## IFocus

The move to appoint a Supreme Court judge just before an election is another removal of precedent that democracy is built on. 

Regarding the language / labelling used here in the thread is really disturbing as its currently the political weapon of choice to label any that any that disagree with extreme accusations creating greater divides in the community.

This is not Australia or an Australian value heaven forbid we get to the extremes currently tearing the US apart all with no moral or ethical leadership.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> Have we had one trump policy even mentioned on here?
> 
> I doubt anyone would know of any successful policies. Its basically been media snippet half truths from Trump hating loons.
> 
> He has had some huge successes and big failures. Probably one of the most complex presidential terms from memory.





Endless lets start with separating children from their parents, unfunded tax cuts to the wealthy, cuts to health care cover for the poor, taxing US citizens for trade tariffs, how about the policy of using Trump properties for federal government business.


----------



## basilio

Yes we can talk about  "policies".  And as one goes through each policy we see a litany of  environmental, social and international wreckage.

*But the overriding issue of this administration is the rise and overwhelming power of a politician who knows no limits, respects no norms and is totally and utterly shameless.*

And that person has created a personality cult  of multi millions of people  who believe everything he says regardless of reality or consequence and embraces this lawless, shameless President.

How do we deal with that in terms of "Policies" ?


----------



## Joe Blow

basilio said:


> Yes we can talk about  "policies".  And as one goes through each policy we see a litany of  environmental, social and international wreckage.
> 
> *But the overriding issue of this administration is the rise and overwhelming power of a politician who knows no limits, respects no norms and is totally and utterly shameless.*
> 
> And that person has created a personality cult  of multi millions of people  who believe everything he says regardless of reality or consequence and embraces this lawless, shameless President.




And how is any of what you have written there useful, interesting or conducive to constructive and nuanced political discussion or debate?

This sort of post is exactly what is wrong with political debate in 2020. It is almost devoid of any content of value, laced with partisan bile, and comes across as almost hysterical in tone.

Frankly, I'm tired of it from both sides of politics. Is it really that hard to see issues from a pragmatic point of view instead of through a myopic partisan prism?

I feel like I've heard the same predictable rubbish over and over again from the partisan left and the right for years now. Nothing new or interesting is ever offered up, just the same old tired refrains repeated ad nauseum like a broken record.

There's very little discussion or debate of any value happening in any political threads here or anywhere else. It seems like an endless parade of people infatuated with their own opinions and themselves.

I'm over it.


----------



## PZ99

Punch and Judy...


----------



## bellenuit

*Senator Lisa Murkowski said she would oppose confirming a Supreme Court nominee before the election. She is the second Republican senator to do so.*

“For weeks, I have stated that I would not support taking up a potential Supreme Court vacancy this close to the election,” Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska said in a statement. “Sadly, what was then a hypothetical is now our reality, but my position has not changed. I did not support taking up a nomination eight months before the 2016 election to fill the vacancy created by the passing of Justice Scalia. We are now even closer to the 2020 election — less than two months out — and I believe the same standard must apply.”

Senator Susan Collins of Maine had said Saturday that she did not believe that the Senate should vote on a nominee before the election.


----------



## Knobby22

I would have thought the smart thing for Trump to do personally is not rush in a replacement but make it contingent on him getting re elected.

This would help him get votes from wavering Republicans and be a good election issue and a distraction also.

Saw also overnight he is threatening getting Biden banned from becoming President by using his executive powers. I wouldn't have thought that was a vote winner but maybe it is.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> The move to appoint a Supreme Court judge just before an election is another removal of precedent that democracy is built on.
> 
> Regarding the language / labelling used here in the thread is really disturbing as its currently the political weapon of choice to label any that any that disagree with extreme accusations creating greater divides in the community.
> 
> This is not Australia or an Australian value heaven forbid we get to the extremes currently tearing the US apart all with no moral or ethical leadership.




This is also the unresearched dribble that I get sick of putting a counter to. Hence the language. Bas often quotes from biased sources and at no point puts forward the whole story.

It says nothing against it in the constitution. Democrats are within their right to block it in the senate and appeal to the rinos in gop. They will no doubt use delay tactics.

"Overall, the Senate has met after a midterm election ten times since the Second World War and confirmed judges in nine of those lame-duck sessions. In the two most recent, Democrats confirmed nearly as many judges as in the rest combined".


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Saw also overnight he is threatening getting Biden banned from becoming President by using his executive powers. I wouldn't have thought that was a vote winner but maybe it is.



Got a link?


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> *Senator Lisa Murkowski said she would oppose confirming a Supreme Court nominee before the election. She is the second Republican senator to do so.*
> 
> “For weeks, I have stated that I would not support taking up a potential Supreme Court vacancy this close to the election,” Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska said in a statement. “Sadly, what was then a hypothetical is now our reality, but my position has not changed. I did not support taking up a nomination eight months before the 2016 election to fill the vacancy created by the passing of Justice Scalia. We are now even closer to the 2020 election — less than two months out — and I believe the same standard must apply.”
> 
> Senator Susan Collins of Maine had said Saturday that she did not believe that the Senate should vote on a nominee before the election.



High possibility the rinos will block the vote. Democrats are working them hard. 

That's actually how democracy works. 
Not threats, or protesters kicking in your door.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Got a link?



Here's one link of many. It's just bluster, his style of whipping up the audience.  I don't think he would do it.









						Trump Threatens To Issue Executive Order Preventing Biden From Being Elected President
					

"He is the worst candidate in the history of presidential politics."




					www.forbes.com


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Here's one link of many. It's just bluster, his style of whipping up the audience.  I don't think he would do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Threatens To Issue Executive Order Preventing Biden From Being Elected President
> 
> 
> "He is the worst candidate in the history of presidential politics."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com



He says a lot of this stuff to his supporters. Remember "lock her up"? 
A lot of his supporters were pissed it never happened.

Populist rubbish that never comes to pass. Great for a show and a stir though. And he routinely stirs the media and twitter.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> He says a lot of this stuff to his supporters. Remember "lock her up"?
> A lot of his supporters were pissed it never happened.
> 
> Populist rubbish that never comes to pass. Great for a show and a stir though. And he routinely stirs the media and twitter.



If he did though, what a constitutional crisis!
43 days left till the election. Its nearly as bad as the lockdown here in Melbourne.


----------



## basilio

Joe Blow said:


> And how is any of what you have written there useful, interesting or conducive to constructive and nuanced political discussion or debate?
> 
> This sort of post is exactly what is wrong with political debate in 2020. It is almost devoid of any content of value, laced with partisan bile, and comes across as almost hysterical in tone.
> 
> Frankly, I'm tired of it from both sides of politics. Is it really that hard to see issues from a pragmatic point of view instead of through a myopic partisan prism?
> 
> I feel like I've heard the same predictable rubbish over and over again from the partisan left and the right for years now. Nothing new or interesting is ever offered up, just the same old tired refrains repeated ad nauseum like a broken record.
> 
> There's very little discussion or debate of any value happening in any political threads here or anywhere else. It seems like an endless parade of people infatuated with their own opinions and themselves.
> 
> I'm over it.




Joe I have to disagree and this  issue is the cornerstone of the seriousness of what is happening in the US and now spreading around the world.

One can easily discuss the policy failings of the Trump administration individually.  In that context  we could talk about different policy options offered by an alternative government or perhaps considered by a current administration.

But those discussions need to be underpinned by a political framework  and set of agreed  norms and values which ensure that the political system itself is respected and continues.  If these are undermined the legitimacy of government itself is called into question.

The US constitution established a set of  checks and balances to protect the Republic from becoming a Monarchy or dictatorship.  Behind those formal laws lay a series of norms. How should leaders behave in office ? How would other politicians, the public, the media and the judiciary hold them to account if they behaved badly ?

At any other time in US history the *behaviours* of Donald Trump would have seen him facing a  serious challenge from his party.  Whether it was the endless obvious lies, the  repeated undermining of the election process, the use of public office to enrich his family, the attempts to engage foreign countries to meddle in US politics.

Then there is the public  denial of COVID 19 as a serious threat (even when he knew that wasn't the case ) and subsequent undermining of government efforts to deal with the epidemic  which  have resulted  in 200,000 people dying  with no end in sight.   These are not the actions of a person suitable to be President.

And it's not as if these issues have been hiding.  There have been a score of books and revelations from

1) Multiple cabinet members who saw at first hand what was happening and had to tell the truth
2) Department officials who saw criminal and incompetent actions and finally put their hand up
3) Trump himself who gave 18 hours of interviews with Bob Woodward and confirmed some of the most egregious behaviours

So it has come back to what I said initially

 ....*the overriding issue of this administration is the rise and overwhelming power of a politician who knows no limits, respects no norms and is totally and utterly shameless.*

Because this is an investment forum however lets look at the situation from a business perspective. (Next post)


----------



## basilio

*How would we view a business run by someone like Donald Trump ?*

Why not take look at the behavior of the current President and ask *" Is this suitable for the Head of a multbillion dollar corporation"*

The President is Manager of the business (not the owner)  So how do we feel as shareholders if he appointed numerous family members as staff and used the business to enable his own financial interests to be tended and promoted ?  Conflicts of interest here ?

How would we view this Manager if 26 women brought up a series of abuse and rape allegations which he routinely denies and then abuses each and every one of them ?  How would we feel if we heard from his own lips how he aggressively pursues women  and won't take no for an answer ? Would we feel confident that the allegations are still baseless ? How would we feel if he then used the companies resources to defend himself against legal charges brought by the one of the aggrieved women and he refused to supply DNA results that could clear him (or convict him ..)

What would be our thoughts if this Manager attacked and undermined  numerous important  business partners that have been critical parts of our business structure for many years ? How would we feel if he then starting business relationships with companies that frankly we think are shoddy, dangerous perhaps even criminal ?  Are we happy as shareholders here?

When we look at the administration of the company how do we feel when Department Head after Department Head is sacked or leaves. Their pedigree seems impeccable. They have long succesful  business histories. But the President *won't accept anyone who doesn't totally bend to his will. * And when these people leave they tell stories of mismanagement that make one concerned about whether the business can survive.

As shareholders we also hear the President  repeatedly say  things that are provably  untrue. It gets worse when some of the most serious problems we face as a company are  publicly denied  (COVID 19) *and then we discover he actually understood the seriousness of the problem. * And because of his deception what was initially a serious problem has metastasized into a still unfolding disaster.

*How do we view such a person  as  President of our company ?*


----------



## moXJO

2) 







Knobby22 said:


> If he did though, what a constitutional crisis!
> 43 days left till the election. Its nearly as bad as the lockdown here in Melbourne.



He would be marched out imo. His base are constitution junkies that would skewer him like a pig. It would be his downfall if he even moved in that direction.


----------



## moXJO

interesting developments in the middle east. Iran mullahs are feeling the heat.  Gulf states are banding together. Might just get a regime change.
Another well played strategy.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *How would we view a business run by someone like Donald Trump ?*
> 
> Why not take look at the behavior of the current President and ask *" Is this suitable for the Head of a multbillion dollar corporation"*
> 
> The President is Manager of the business (not the owner)  So how do we feel as shareholders if he appointed numerous family members as staff and used the business to enable his own financial interests to be tended and promoted ?  Conflicts of interest here ?
> 
> How would we view this Manager if 26 women brought up a series of abuse and rape allegations which he routinely denies and then abuses each and every one of them ?  How would we feel if we heard from his own lips how he aggressively pursues women  and won't take no for an answer ? Would we feel confident that the allegations are still baseless ? How would we feel if he then used the companies resources to defend himself against legal charges brought by the one of the aggrieved women and he refused to supply DNA results that could clear him (or convict him ..)
> 
> What would be our thoughts if this Manager attacked and undermined  numerous important  business partners that have been critical parts of our business structure for many years ? How would we feel if he then starting business relationships with companies that frankly we think are shoddy, dangerous perhaps even criminal ?  Are we happy as shareholders here?
> 
> When we look at the administration of the company how do we feel when Department Head after Department Head is sacked or leaves. Their pedigree seems impeccable. They have long succesful  business histories. But the President *won't accept anyone who doesn't totally bend to his will. * And when these people leave they tell stories of mismanagement that make one concerned about whether the business can survive.
> 
> As shareholders we also hear the President  repeatedly say  things that are provably  untrue. It gets worse when some of the most serious problems we face as a company are  publicly denied  (COVID 19) *and then we discover he actually understood the seriousness of the problem. * And because of his deception what was initially a serious problem has metastasized into a still unfolding disaster.
> 
> *How do we view such a person  as  President of our company ?*



This is the kind of emotive rubbish that got trump elected the first time


----------



## SirRumpole

basilio said:


> *How would we view a business run by someone like Donald Trump ?
> 
> 
> 
> How do we view such a person  as  President of our company ?*




That's a pretty good angle to take bas. 

I feel that I would have sold my shares by now if he was CEO.

That sort of ego never goes well with running a corporation. The words corporate psychopath comes to mind and who would want to work for such a person besides toadies and yes men and women ?

People like that generally run companies into the ground, and I fear he has done the same with his own private and public companies.


----------



## basilio

*How would we view a business run by someone like Donald Trump ?*

I think  there is direct comparison  to one of the most outrageous frauds in US history  that is currently unfolding.

.......................................................................................................................................................................................................
*Our Conclusion: Nikola is a Massive Fraud Constructed on Dozens of Lies*

Sometimes people misspeak by accident. No one has a perfect memory, and we all occasionally get things wrong.

But what we have witnessed at Nikola, and specifically from Trevor Milton, is a pattern of well-planned and deliberate acts of deception ranging from (a) the staging of non-working products as if fully functional, wrapped in numerous lies about capabilities that don’t exist; (b) the staging of misleading videos, which require extensive premeditation, planning and execution; (c) material lies about capabilities, partnerships and products that simply do not exist at all, on video and often in front of entire rooms full of people; and (d) a culture of secrecy and intimidation that to this point has largely kept it all under wraps.

*We think Trevor Milton is incapable of telling the truth. We believe he lies like most people breathe. It is natural for him, and our extensive review of his history suggests it has been this way throughout his entire business career.*

Every now and then a story comes around that exposes how little the “experts” really know. Theranos had inked partnerships with Walgreens, Safeway, and Cleveland Clinic and had staffed its board with luminaries. Madoff raised billions in capital from sophisticated investors across the globe.
*
The remarkable thing about Nikola’s story is not that someone like Trevor Milton exists, but that he has managed to parlay his stories and lies into deals with some of the best manufacturers and partners in the world by claiming to own vast proprietary technology and having successfully built revolutionary products that simply didn’t exist.*

He transformed these deceptions and false promises into an empire that at one point was valued at $34 billion, larger than Ford and Fiat Chrysler. He’s signed deals with GM, Anheuser Busch, Bosch, Worthington, and a slew of significant automotive players. He received investment from Fidelity and ValueAct, among other name-brand institutions.

*We truly think Nikola is both a sign of the times and a story for the ages.*









						Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America
					

(NASDAQ:NKLA) Today, we reveal why we believe Nikola is an intricate fraud built on dozens of lies over the course of its Founder and Executive Chairman Trevor Milton’s career.We have gathered exte…




					hindenburgresearch.com


----------



## basilio

*Donald in Blunderland: Trump won't commit to peaceful power transfer at surreal press briefing *
David Smith’s sketch: President takes us through the looking glass amid the kneecapping of American democracy


....“Will you commit to make sure there’s a peaceful transferral of power after the election?” Karem asked.

All of his 43 predecessors would have said yes, presumably. But Trump replied: “We’re going to have to see what happens, you know that. I’ve been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.”

Karem shot back: “I understand that, but people are rioting. Do you commit to make sure that there’s a peaceful transferral of power?”

Still Trump refused to commit. “Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it. And you know who knows it better than anybody else? The Democrats know it better than anybody else.”








						Donald in Blunderland: Trump won't commit to peaceful power transfer at surreal press briefing
					

David Smith’s sketch: President takes us through the looking glass amid the kneecapping of American democracy




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

* This is the call to arms of Trump supporters. * 
He is now making public statements about refusing to accept a loss in the US election.
Obviously the Democrats condemn the statement but there are also some Republicians  saying it is fundamentally undemocratic.
It remains to be seen how other Trump supporters respond.

_Republican Senator and former presidential candidate Mitt Romney tweeted a thinly veiled condemnation Mr Trump's comments without naming the President.

*"Fundamental to democracy is the peaceful transition of power; without that, there is Belarus," he said.*_


> _*"Any suggestion that a president might not respect this constitutional guarantee is both unthinkable and unacceptable."*_



_Prominent Republican Bill Kristol, who served as chief of staff to vice-president Dan Quayle during the first Bush administration, said this was "a dangerous moment".

*"It is clear that Donald J. Trump has no interest in seeking to 'faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States'," he tweeted. It is clear that he has no commitment to acting to 'preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States'.*"_









						'You are not a dictator': Trump refuses to commit to peaceful transfer of power after election
					

Politicians and pundits from both sides of the political aisle condemn Donald Trump's refusal to commit to a peaceful transition if Joe Biden wins the election.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## orr

The following is copied from the comments of an interview between Steven Colbert and Lt Gen H.R. MacMaster at the Launch of his book;

"_British Writer Pens The Best Description Of Trump I’ve Read  March 8, 2019 ~ Michael Stevenson   Someone on Quora asked “Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?” Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England wrote the following response:  
   A few things spring to mind.     Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem.  For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace – all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed.  So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief.     
Plus, we like a laugh.  And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing – not once, ever.  I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever.  And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility – for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman.  But with Trump, it’s a fact.  He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is – his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty.     
Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers.     And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults – he actually thinks in them.  His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness.     There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth.  It’s all surface.     Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront.  Well, we don’t.  We see it as having no inner world, no soul.    
 And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath.  All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist.  Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog.  He is the exact opposite of that.  He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat.  He’s more a fat white slug.  A Jabba the Hutt of privilege. 
    And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully.  That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead.  
   There are unspoken rules to this stuff – the Queensberry rules of basic decency – and he breaks them all.  He punches downwards – which a gentleman should, would, could never do – and every blow he aims is below the belt.  He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless – and he kicks them when they are down.     
So the fact that a significant minority – perhaps a third – of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think ‘Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that:  • Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are.  • You don’t need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man.     
  This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss.  After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss.  He turns being artless into an art form; *he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of *****.  His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum. 
 God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too.  But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.  
   He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart.  In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws – he would make a Trump.  And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumps of hair and scream in anguish: ‘My God… what… have… I… created?    If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set_".

(my bolds)
I'm not knowning familar with Nate White... not until today anyway.


----------



## basilio

Nice find Orr
Nate  didn't waste a single word.
Great  craftsmanship


----------



## IFocus

Gee you cannot argue that description can you.............


----------



## basilio

*                   Trump Refuses To Accept Outcome Of The Bachelor Finale           * 






US President Donald Trump has reacted strongly to last night’s finale of _The Bachelor_, insisting that the outcome was rigged. In the final episode, Locky Gilbert chose Irena Srbinovska over runner-up Bella Valeris. 

Trump tweeted that the outcome of _The Bachelor_ was “not the will of the people”, claiming that the result was a “conspiracy engineered by the US Postal Service, Democratic Party presidential candidate Joe Biden and Channel Ten.”

In scenes all too familiar to Americans in 2020, protesters supporting the two Bachelor contestants clashed on the streets of major cities after Trump’s tweet. Supporters of Irena believe she won fairly, however supporters of Bella were sympathetic to Trump’s view and believe the result was rigged. 

The US President has declared that he plans to take the matter to the US Supreme Court in the coming days. Legal experts believe the matter may take many months to resolve. 

Following the death of US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, there are eight justices on the Supreme Court. Most observers believe that four justices would support Irena, and four would support Bella, making Ginsberg’s replacement vitally important to the case’s outcome. 









						Trump Refuses To Accept Outcome Of The Bachelor Finale
					

"It's a conspiracy engineered by the US Postal Service, Joe Biden and Channel Ten




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *                   Trump Refuses To Accept Outcome Of The Bachelor Finale           *
> 
> View attachment 112237
> 
> US President Donald Trump has reacted strongly to last night’s finale of _The Bachelor_, insisting that the outcome was rigged. In the final episode, Locky Gilbert chose Irena Srbinovska over runner-up Bella Valeris.
> 
> Trump tweeted that the outcome of _The Bachelor_ was “not the will of the people”, claiming that the result was a “conspiracy engineered by the US Postal Service, Democratic Party presidential candidate Joe Biden and Channel Ten.”
> 
> In scenes all too familiar to Americans in 2020, protesters supporting the two Bachelor contestants clashed on the streets of major cities after Trump’s tweet. Supporters of Irena believe she won fairly, however supporters of Bella were sympathetic to Trump’s view and believe the result was rigged.
> 
> The US President has declared that he plans to take the matter to the US Supreme Court in the coming days. Legal experts believe the matter may take many months to resolve.
> 
> Following the death of US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, there are eight justices on the Supreme Court. Most observers believe that four justices would support Irena, and four would support Bella, making Ginsberg’s replacement vitally important to the case’s outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Refuses To Accept Outcome Of The Bachelor Finale
> 
> 
> "It's a conspiracy engineered by the US Postal Service, Joe Biden and Channel Ten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theshovel.com.au



That's the closest to a factual article you have posted in a while bas.


----------



## IFocus

I think long term the Republican / Trump grab at power at all costs and damn all president will cost them dearly if the Democrats decide the same.

At some point the Democrats will have the senate and presidency then it will get interesting.


----------



## basilio

I did see Trumps "speech"  to the UN.  One could hear collective mike drops around the world.

*Trump's UN speech was a bizarre feat of gaslighting and fantasy*
Michael H Fuchs


It only made sense if you see the world as Trump does – a world where he can do no wrong, and completely divorced from facts

Seventy-five years after its founding, the United Nations is facing an unprecedented challenge in helping countries respond to a devastating pandemic. And Donald Trump – the leader of the world’s most powerful country, which helped establish the UN – is sabotaging efforts to collectively tackle the pandemic and other threats that the UN was created to solve.

This year, the pandemic forced the UN to conduct diplomacy virtually. World leaders had to pre-record their speeches for the 75th general assembly, highlighting in stark fashion the grave challenges that all countries face today from Covid-19, as well as the tall task the UN has in marshaling an effective global coordination effort.


Trump’s pre-recorded speech was fitting for a president who has decimated US credibility like few of his predecessors: speaking into the void, Trump spun a fantastical tale of a world in which the United States is leading the charge against all manner of evil, from the pandemic to China to Iran. Like much of Trump’s rants on Twitter or on stage, his speech to the UN only made sense if you see the world as Trump does – a world where he can do no wrong, and completely divorced from the facts.

The facts, unfortunately, show a president who has exacerbated multiple crises roiling his own country, and who has made the world a more dangerous place.









						Trump's UN speech was a bizarre feat of gaslighting and fantasy | Michael H Fuchs
					

It only made sense if you see the world as Trump does – a world where he can do no wrong, and completely divorced from facts




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dutchie

Undoubtedly Trump is the best President the USA has ever had. So good that the voters will endorse him for another 4 years!


----------



## PZ99

“Trump taxes show chronic losses and years of tax avoidance"

Well no one is going to faint with amazement at that are they ?


----------



## Knobby22

PZ99 said:


> “Trump taxes show chronic losses and years of tax avoidance"
> 
> Well no one is going to faint with amazement at that are they ?



300 million losses, owes IRS 80 million due to tax avoidance.
He really is more a reality show host than a businessman.


----------



## satanoperca

Curious in what people at ASF would deem the required traits of a USA president.

Honesty
Integrity
Ability to lead and work in a team
I believe all Americans would expect these personality traits, but it seem 40-50% do not, what does that say about the integrity of the population of Americans.

Don
1. Dishonest, lies through his teeth
2. Integrity is something earnt not told, failed again. Tax returns are just one of many, grabbing arses might be another
3. We he can do that as long as the team is handpicked by the good man himself, so again failed.


----------



## moXJO

He needs to repay a couple hundred million dollars in debt in the next few years. Interesting to see how he gets out of it.

As for the tax thing, all these rich buggers offshore their profits. I'm sure he paid more tax in India then he did in the US.


----------



## basilio

The bigger picture of Don's financial position and tax returns is very troubling.
Apart from the "$80m" he owes the IRS he is personally liable for $421m of loans which are coming due in the next few years.
His businesses lose money hand over fist.
He uses his daughter Ivanka  as  a tax dodge
He makes money for his failing businesses through his Presidency.

_“Since he became a leading presidential candidate, he has received large amounts of money from lobbyists, politicians and foreign officials who pay to stay at his properties or join his clubs,” the newspaper reported, before detailing monies paid at his Mar-a-Largo resort in Florida, his Washington hotel and other locations. _

*So what are the conflict of interest provisions when a President is dealing with Bank/organisation that has hundreds of millions of dollars in outstanding loans to him ?*

*Six key findings from the New York Times' Trump taxes bombshell*
The president pays little, faces hefty audit costs as well as loans coming due soon, and Ivanka is not in the clear









						Six key findings from the New York Times' Trump taxes bombshell
					

The president pays little, faces hefty audit costs as well as loans coming due soon, and Ivanka is not in the clear




					www.theguardian.com
				











						New York Times publishes details of Donald Trump's tax returns
					

Paper details $750 federal income tax payments in 2016, 2017 and says information ‘does not reveal unreported Russia connections’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Curious in what people at ASF would deem the required traits of a USA president.
> 
> Honesty
> Integrity
> Ability to lead and work in a team
> I believe all Americans would expect these personality traits, but it seem 40-50% do not, what does that say about the integrity of the population of Americans.
> 
> Don
> 1. Dishonest, lies through his teeth
> 2. Integrity is something earnt not told, failed again. Tax returns are just one of many, grabbing arses might be another
> 3. We he can do that as long as the team is handpicked by the good man himself, so again failed.



Move the US in the right direction. Which he was once you cancel out the background noise.

Immigration from Mexico needed to be regulated. He attempted that at least.

Put US workers first.

Made UN partners pay a minimum for defence so they didn't just rely on US.

Stopped endless hot wars.

Attempting to pull manufacturers away from China. And calling out China in general.

Involvement in a Middle East coalition/peace to stick it up Iran.

A lot of other progress made as well.

I don't care who does it. But I know there was no chance mainstream politicians were even going to try. They are to worried about backlash.
 We have a guy that cops criticism and gets on with it anyway. No other politician could survive what he has without turning into jelly. He pushes ahead with conviction and some hugely unpopular world moves the rest were to scared to make.

Unfortunately he is what he is. But I'd say this is a once in a lifetime President. Good or bad he has made some very bold moves that were needed.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Move the US in the right direction. Which he was once you cancel out the background noise.
> 
> Immigration from Mexico needed to be regulated. He attempted that at least.
> 
> Put US workers first.
> 
> Made UN partners pay a minimum for defence so they didn't just rely on US.
> 
> Stopped endless hot wars.
> 
> Attempting to pull manufacturers away from China. And calling out China in general.
> 
> Involvement in a Middle East coalition/peace to stick it up Iran.
> 
> A lot of other progress made as well.
> 
> I don't care who does it. But I know there was no chance mainstream politicians were even going to try. They are to worried about backlash.
> We have a guy that cops criticism and gets on with it anyway. No other politician could survive what he has without turning into jelly. He pushes ahead with conviction and some hugely unpopular world moves the rest were to scared to make.
> 
> Unfortunately he is what he is. But I'd say this is a once in a lifetime President. Good or bad he has made some very bold moves that were needed.




Thanks for the reply, so what you are saying it is okay to lie, deceive, manipulate and never tell the truth, as long as it is perceived you are doing the right thing for the people of the USA.

Some further discussion of these points might be helpful:

Move the US in the right direction. - which direction is that, seems to have clocked up some nice debt trying to do something.
Put US workers first. - this is just spin by him
Stopped endless hot wars, more spin, but not qualified enough to make a call.
Attempting to pull manufacturers away from China. And calling out China in general. This one I agree with, going to get interesting, if it doesn't lead to WWW3
Involvement in a Middle East coalition/peace to stick it up Iran., Really Iran are the bad ones, how about the Saudi.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Thanks for the reply, so what you are saying it is okay to lie, deceive, manipulate and never tell the truth, as long as it is perceived you are doing the right thing for the people of the USA.
> 
> Some further discussion of these points might be helpful:
> 
> Move the US in the right direction. - which direction is that, seems to have clocked up some nice debt trying to do something.
> Put US workers first. - this is just spin by him
> Stopped endless hot wars, more spin, but not qualified enough to make a call.
> Attempting to pull manufacturers away from China. And calling out China in general. This one I agree with, going to get interesting, if it doesn't lead to WWW3
> Involvement in a Middle East coalition/peace to stick it up Iran., Really Iran are the bad ones, how about the Saudi.



Disagree with the majority of your replies. Opinion isn't fact. Unions in many areas are backing trump. Despite the divisiveness. 

Yes Iran government is the bad ones. Human rights abuse is worse then most

Sorry but getting US out of wars isn't spin. 

I'd say you are not really objective in what his government has achieved.

If you are saying Biden offers an honest and truthful candidate I'd say you have drunk the coolaid. Guy stole his wife, lied, cheated and has been a lying corrupt scumbag for years. Unfortunately he wants back to status quo. Policies of yesteryear. 
And is also China aligned. 

So its shtbag vs shtbag. So yes I stand by the above. I know enough on the ground to be comfortable with the statement.


----------



## satanoperca

So a man that every second word is a lie, talks about cleaning the swamp, but he is standing in the middle, pays no tax, because he is somehow above that.

Make America great is really working out well for everyone except the USA.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> So a man that every second word is a lie, talks about cleaning the swamp, but he is standing in the middle, pays no tax, because he is somehow above that.
> 
> Make America great is really working out well for everyone except the USA.



Have you looked at policy or sprouting more opinion?
Because it looks like opinion. Which is fine. But I'm not interested in countering something that's internally entrenched.  You have every right to dislike who you want to dislike. Im not here to defend trump, or anyone else's record. I dislike 99% of politicians.

 If someone is really interested in the topic you look at all sides. 

As far as tax goes most large companies or rich individuals don't pay tax. Remember kerry Packer?


----------



## moXJO

And ballot harvesting comes out a little more:


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> If someone is really interested in the topic you look at all sides.
> 
> As far as tax goes most large companies or rich individuals don't pay tax. Remember kerry Packer?




I am total neutral on this subject. Just find it interesting that so many people support a president that lies so much, avoids the truth, will not be transparent.

As for companies and the rich not paying taxes, I don't care who they are, they are all bad people.


----------



## satanoperca

So, 

I pointed out three characteristics of a good president.
2. Was Integrity -  Donald will not discuss or provide his tax returns, passes the blame.
Biden " The Bidens paid about $3.7 million and $1.5 in taxes for 2017 and 2018 "

Again not for either candidate, but at least one is showing integrity and transparency.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> So,
> 
> I pointed out three characteristics of a good president.
> 2. Was Integrity -  Donald will not discuss or provide his tax returns, passes the blame.
> Biden " The Bidens paid about $3.7 million and $1.5 in taxes for 2017 and 2018 "
> 
> Again not for either candidate, but at least one is showing integrity and transparency.



Biden is a career politician. Different metrics. They have very polished PR staff that are tapped into what looks good or bad. Trump is the worst at acting like a politician I have ever seen. I would say Trump is completely transparent as everyone knows he is a shtbag. Biden however hides it well. But his secret service staff say that Biden and Hillary are the two that are the worst to work for. Where as Trump and Obama are considered the best as they treat them well.


I'm not sure paying tax is a sign of integrity. There are plenty of drug dealers that pay tax after they wash it.


----------



## satanoperca

moJXO,

You and Trump would get along well, both fail to debate or provide answers to simple questions, wasting my time.

You believe in a lier, who has no integrity, honesty or values except himself.

Time is always a wonderful teller of truth.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> moJXO,
> 
> Time is always a wonderful teller of truth.



So true, when he gets four more years to be President.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> moJXO,
> 
> You and Trump would get along well, both fail to debate or provide answers to simple questions, wasting my time.
> 
> You believe in a lier, who has no integrity, honesty or values except himself.
> 
> Time is always a wonderful teller of truth.



Hard day huh?


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> moJXO,
> 
> You and Trump would get along well, both fail to debate or provide answers to simple questions, wasting my time.
> 
> You believe in a lier, who has no integrity, honesty or values except himself.
> 
> Time is always a wonderful teller of truth.



Ill give what I expect. Personally I think your above qualities are seriously fairy tale stuff in a leader these days. Anyway:

Does their best to do what they promised during the election.

Is not sidetracked by criticism (many revert to paralysis).

Makes hard decisions with future benefit in mind.

You are actually wasting my time by the way. You didn't debate anything either. Feelings are hardly debating...


----------



## satanoperca

" Ill give what I expect. Personally I think your above qualities are seriously fairy tale stuff in a leader these days. Anyway: "

What a sad comment, I hope it is not shared by the majority of society.

Mojxo, have a nice life, I am too old, seen too much, same old same old to get involved anymore, tried with some simple questions for discussion.


----------



## dutchie

The ‘Trump Doctrine’ earns President third Nobel Peace Prize nomination | Sky News Australia
					

Eminent law professor David Flint is among four Australian law professors who are nominating US President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize on the basis of the “Trump Doctrine”.  Only members of a national parliament or law professors are able to nominate others for the Nobel Peace Prize...




					www.skynews.com.au
				





*The ‘Trump Doctrine’ earns President third Nobel Peace Prize nomination*


Eminent law professor David Flint is among *four Australian law professors *who are nominating US President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize on the basis of the “Trump Doctrine”.
Only members of a national parliament or law professors are able to nominate others for the Nobel Peace Prize with President Trump already receiving two nominations for his promotion of peace in the Middle-East. President Trump recently brokered an historic peace deal between the United Arab Emirates and Israel, which aimed to normalise diplomatic relations.
This unprecedented deal was closely followed by a similar peace agreement between Bahrain and Israel. "He went ahaead and negotiated against all advice, but he did it with common sense. He negotiated directly with the Arab states concerned and Israel and brought them together," Professor Flint said.
Professor Flint told Sky News host Alan Jones the Trump Doctrine is “something extraordinary” and is emblematic of the two things which guide the president. “He has, firstly, common sense, and he is only guided by national interest … and therefore an interest in the western alliance” he said.
 “What he has done with the Trump Doctrine is that he has decided he would no longer have America in endless wars, wars which achieve nothing but the killing of thousands of young Americans. "So he's reducing America's tendency to get involved in any and every war. "The states are lining up, Arab and Middle-Eastern, to join that network of peace which will dominate the Middle-East. "He is really producing peace in the world in a way in a which none of his predecessors did, and he fully deserves the Nobel Peace Prize."


----------



## dutchie

*"He is really producing peace in the world in a way in a which none of his predecessors did, and he fully deserves the Nobel Peace Prize."*

All the communists and people with DTS will be spewing.


----------



## Knobby22

The deals with Israel is more about a the weakening influence of the USA, though the Trump desire to avoid using American power has played a part, creating a vacuum that must be filled.

The small players have lost.
The Arab monarchys have decided to let Israel do what they will with the Palestinians and consider this worth it to form an alliance against Iran who in turn is making an alliance with China.

The Russian win with Syria means that Turkey and Iraq will want to be at least be partially allied with Russia and also completely destroy the Kurds who were betrayed.

Yemen will be destroyed in effect also.

Now that oil is less important, the region will need to stabilise so power can be retained. I can't see Biden reversing this unless he makes a deal with Iran to stop them letting the Chinese build a military base.


----------



## dutchie

Nation Repents And Asks For God’s Mercy After Watching The Presidential Debate
September 30th, 2020





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U.S.— Following Tuesday night’s presidential debate, the entire nation has humbled themselves before the Lord and asked for His mercy. 

“After seeing that train wreck of a debate, I immediately fell down on my knees and asked God to forgive us all!” said concerned patriot Anthony Harb. 
Knowing that the nation’s destiny lies with one of these two men, many became fearful of God’s imminent wrath and judgment against America. “If this is the best we have to offer, then we are all doomed!”
Many people tore their clothes in response to the disastrous debate. “We’re ruined. God will surely judge us and destroy us all after that!”
Across the nation, the people wept and begged for mercy from the Lord. “Please don’t wipe us out!” they cried. “We turn from our sin and ask that You deliver us from this!”


----------



## moXJO

Debate was a shtshow. Trump went with a terrible strategy (scorched earth) that missed by a mile. Biden was caught in numerous lies that Trump could of countered. But instead he kept interrupting so much that it became to hard to listen to the points made. Instead it ended up getting lost in the trainwreck spectacle of it all. It seemed designed to appeal to the hard-core base and less about the swing votes. And worse was Biden did not lock up or freeze under pressure like they were expecting.

Biden did well enough to jump over the very low bar that was set for him.
I'm still betting on a Biden win at this point. Trump lost swing voters after that performance.
If Joes team was smart they would skip the rest of the debates.


----------



## basilio

Why Trump resorted to torching the debate
					

Unlike in 2016, he lacks a clear message or line of attack against his opponent. What remained was bullying, interruptions and ad hominem provocations.




					www.politico.com


----------



## basilio

Views from a panel of independent voters viewing the debate with Frank Luntz

*What pushed some over the edge*
The roughly four voters who ended the night in Biden’s corner were stunned by Trump’s performance. *Ruthie, a voter from Pennsylvania, described it as trying to “win an argument with a crackhead.”









						Undecided voters call Trump ‘unhinged’ and ‘un-American’ — but are unswayed by debate
					

“You just saw 90 minutes. How can you still be undecided?” veteran GOP pollster Frank Luntz told a virtual focus group.




					www.politico.com
				



*


----------



## dutchie

Trump certainly does not have a bedside manner but enough voters know this...


----------



## basilio

In which universe does Donald Trump get away with saying* "I don't know who the Proud Boys are* ?"


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Biden was caught in numerous lies that Trump could of countered.



Some fact checking, love facts, cuts through b.....t.









						Presidential debate: Trump and Biden's claims fact-checked
					

The first of three presidential debates centred on the pandemic, race and the economy.



					www.bbc.com
				




*He is simply a liar.*


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Some fact checking, love facts, cuts through b.....t.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presidential debate: Trump and Biden's claims fact-checked
> 
> 
> The first of three presidential debates centred on the pandemic, race and the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *He is simply a liar.*



Which one...
They both lied.

That is possibly the weakest fact check I've seen by the way.

Biden only said "predator". Give me a break. It was the policies and those that he supported that was the issue.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Which one...
> They both lied.




6 Quotes from Trump 6 lies
4 Quotes from Biden 1 lie


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> 6 Quotes from Trump 6 lies
> 4 Quotes from Biden 1 lie



Which shows that moXJO was right. They both lied. 
So what is your point? The degree of lying?  LOL


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> 6 Quotes from Trump 6 lies
> 4 Quotes from Biden 1 lie



Umm how about I bring up all the lies from a source that doesn't look like it came from a journalist from dolly magazine.


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> Which shows that moXJO was right. They both lied.
> So what is your point? The degree of lying?  LOL



Trump 100% Lies
Biden 25% Lies



moXJO said:


> Umm how about I bring up all the lies from a source that doesn't look like it came from a journalist from dolly magazine.



So the BBC is not credible enough for you, then who is?
The British Broadcasting Corporation is a British public service broadcaster, headquartered at Broadcasting House in Westminster

How is the fishing up north, great down in Melbourne now we can go.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Trump 100% Lies
> Biden 25% Lies
> 
> 
> So the BBC is not credible enough for you, then who is?
> The British Broadcasting Corporation is a British public service broadcaster, headquartered at Broadcasting House in Westminster
> 
> How is the fishing up north, great down in Melbourne now we can go.



They missed a huge amount of statements. Sloppy journo.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> Trump 100% Lies
> Biden 25% Lies



Still wondering what your point is?


----------



## IFocus

So Trump turns the debate into a Jerry Springer show.

Couldn't image how he manages his administration, the chaos must be some thing to behold.

That's all he has after 4 years?


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> Still wondering what your point is?



Must have to dumb it down, would you like a leader that lies all the time, if you do, please migrate to the USA, as you can have one there.

Get my point.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> Must have to dumb it down, would you like a leader that lies all the time, if you do, please migrate to the USA, as you can have one there.
> 
> Get my point.





satanoperca said:


> Must have to dumb it down, would you like a leader that lies all the time, if you do, please migrate to the USA, as you can have one there.
> 
> Get my point.



1 Quote from Biden 1 lie  (Biden 100% lies)


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> So Trump turns the debate into a Jerry Springer show.
> 
> Couldn't image how he manages his administration, the chaos must be some thing to behold.
> 
> That's all he has after 4 years?



Trump to Biden - "I've done more in 47 months than you have in 47 years"


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> They missed a huge amount of statements. Sloppy journo.



Can you provide any further analysis of the debate?


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> 1 Quote from Biden 1 lie  (Biden 100% lies)



Oh please, read the article, 4 quotes 1 lie, really.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Can you provide any further analysis of the debate?



I will when I get more than 2 mins. Needs more attention then that.


----------



## IFocus

Trump knows he is gone all he has is claiming electoral fraud another fraud in itself god knows the division he has sown in the US  and the damage to come after the election should be enough to convict him of treason.

Supporting Trump at this stage is problematic at best.


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> Trump knows he is gone all he has is claiming electoral fraud another fraud in itself god knows the division he has sown in the US  and the damage to come after the election should be enough to convict him of treason.
> 
> Supporting Trump at this stage is problematic at best.




I put a bet on at $1.75 for Biden to win a couple of days ago. The price now has dropped to $1.53.
I won money on Trump last time.
That debate was a disaster for Trump despite what is publicly said.
Its hard to put up with his behaviour in real time.


----------



## moXJO

Might have  to do this in stages till I get more time. There's a lot to unpack and I didn't get a good chance to go through debate transcripts.

Biden alternative facts:

This lots from factcheck.org which actually leans left. So here's the start till I get more time.


Biden made the far-fetched claim that data show President Donald Trump could have prevented “all” of the U.S. deaths from COVID-19 if he “had done his job.” There’s no research that supports such a claim.
Biden wrongly claimed the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently said “wearing masks would save 100,000” U.S. residents from dying of COVID-19 between now and January. That’s a projection from the University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation, not the CDC director.
The former vice president misleadingly claimed Trump “said that no longer would we … provide masks for schools.” One federal program to pay for masks ended, but another aims to distribute up to 125 million masks for schools.
Biden appears to have exaggerated when he said Trump had been told the coronavirus was “seven times more contagious than the flu.” Trump told journalist Bob Woodward the virus might be five times more lethal than the flu. The coronavirus is about two to three times more contagious.
Biden wrongly claimed that “we now have a larger trade deficit … than we’ve ever had with China.” He would have been right two years ago, but not now.
He claimed that capping orphan oil and gas wells could create 250,000 jobs. We only found support for 120,000 jobs.
Biden falsely claimed that Trump has never condemned the far right and white supremacists.

It then goes into greater detail:


https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/factchecking-bidens-town-hall/


Joes been using the "Very fine people" lie for a while.

I'll throw in how he stole his wife. How he gets handsy and naked with staff. Some of the scandals with his son. How their family made millions on a senators wage etc. 

Trump is basically an unfiltered politician. You rub of the gloss and you find that its a sea of (worse than) trumps. Worse because they start wars.


----------



## dutchie

Here is the bottom line:

*"Trump is worse than I feared. However, what I fear more is socialism."*

(Billionaire investor Leon Cooperman)

See "Professional and Sophisticated Investors" thread for other quotes he made.


----------



## moXJO

Coronavirus infected with Trump!!!

Wait, did I get that round the right way?


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> Trump to Biden - "I've done more in 47 months than you have in 47 years"





moXJO said:


> Coronavirus infected with Trump!!!
> 
> Wait, did I get that round the right way?




Maybe Trump is the vaccine.

How iconic, Trump has got the covid, the countdown until he announces the election off. 24hours


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Coronavirus infected with Trump!!!
> 
> Wait, did I get that round the right way?



Maybe I should have a bet on Pence being the next President! I reckon he could swing it.

If Trump has had it for a week then he will be ok, if he has just caught it, well anything can happen. He is not young.


----------



## satanoperca

Hope he has some bleach handy.


----------



## Knobby22

satanoperca said:


> Hope he has some bleach handy.



Biden was on Airforce 1 with them for the debate. He might have it too!


----------



## satanoperca

Knobby22 said:


> Biden was on Airforce 1 with them for the debate. He might have it too!



Just popping out to stock up on popcorn.


----------



## moXJO

Two ways it could alter the election. If he gets seriously sick his critics will pummel him all the way to election. If he gets a mild case, he will be supercharged with his agenda and guns blazing.

This is possibly the craziest election (more so then 2016). I'd be contact tracing back to the source because you just don't know.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Biden was on Airforce 1 with them for the debate. He might have it too!



Joe would literally be dead if he got it. From what I've seen he is pretty careful.


----------



## basilio

Melania is also  infected so I suspect many of the aides and White House staff would be at risk. Will certainly throw a spanner into the campaign. The ABC story highlights just how slack the Whitehouse has been with social distancing and other elements of infection control.

I am surprised that COVID 19 has infected Trump. I thought he would have been spared out of professional courtesy.... 🤒









						US President Donald Trump tests positive for coronavirus, first lady also positive
					

US President Donald Trump and his wife Melania Trump both test positive for COVID-19, but the President will continue carrying out his duties without disruption while quarantining, says his doctor.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio

The risk to Trumps health is small but not insignificant. This analysis spells it out. The favourable points are in the last line.






Ian Sample

Studies of patients from around the world have given doctors a good sense of who is most likely to shrug off a coronavirus infection and who is more likely to need hospital care. *As an older male, president Trump is immediately in a higher risk category*.

*Men are nearly twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than women* and data from the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) show that at 74 years old, Trump’s risk of being hospitalised is at least five times greater, and his risk of dying 90 times greater, than for an average 18 to 29 year old. Given the very low death rates in younger people, a more meaningful figure is the infection fatality rate, or the risk of death on contracting the virus, which is 4.2% at age 75, and 14% at age 85.

At a medical in February, Trump weighed in at 243lbs. At six foot three, that puts his BMI at 30.4, just enough to qualify as obese. This adds further risk, tripling the odds of hospitalisation compared to people with a healthy weight, and raising the risk of dying by nearly 50%.
President Trump’s infection appears to have been picked up before symptoms have arisen, so doctors will be able to monitor his condition closely and intervene early if his health falters. One drug that will be on hand is the antiviral remdesivir, which is thought to be more effective while the virus is still replicating, and before it has had the chance to progress to the lungs and cause more serious damage.









						France reports 12,148 infections in 24 hours – as it happened
					

Health body gives green light to second test that gives results in up to 30 minutes; Spanish capital is Europe’s worst hotspot




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

Full details to date. Note that Mike Pence is also at risk.









						Trump tests positive for coronavirus – what we know and don't know
					

The US president and first lady, Melania Trump, have tested positive for coronavirus and will begin quarantine




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

*Who said this ?  Is it  a fair and  accurate representation of what has happened in the US ?*

The positive test is yet another reminder that the coronavirus continues to spread, even as Trump has tried desperately to suggest it no longer poses a danger. Since it emerged earlier this year, Trump, the White House and his campaign have played down the threat and refused to abide by basic public health guidelines – including those issued by his own administration – such as wearing masks in public and practicing social distancing. Instead, Trump has continued to hold campaign rallies that draw thousands of supporters. The virus has killed more than 200,000 Americans and infected more than 7 million nationwide.


----------



## explod

Seems too convenient to me. 

Consider for a moment that it may be faked so that he does not have to face Biden again and when he emerges will claim they have a wonderful cure.

My Dad used to have a saying, "as cunning as a shithouse rat"  And it fits here .............IN MY HUMBLE OPINION


----------



## bellenuit

One positive is that according to his medic, Trump will perform his duties while recovering. This will be a first as he has neglected them for the last four years.


----------



## moXJO

Let the jokes and memes begin!


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Let the jokes and memes begin!





I think the Karma bus has just scythed it's way through the Trump COVID denial BS.


----------



## basilio

The landscape is moving rapidly around the spreading COVID infections emanating from the Whitehouse

Trump has now gone to  Walter Reed hospital with a persistent cough and low grade fever.
Contract tracers still haven't got a list  of the hundreds of people who Trump  interacted with in the past couple of days. Trump was at a large fund raiser in New Jersey.
Three White House reporters have just been diagnosed with COVID. They are now claiming the Whitehouse is responsible by creating an unsafe workplace
Donald thinks he is doing "very well".









						Trump hospitalized following Covid diagnosis as ex-aide Kellyanne Conway tests positive – as it happened
					

Conway is the seventh person at Rose Garden event announcing Amy Coney Barrett’s supreme court nomination to test positive




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The landscape is moving rapidly around the spreading COVID infections emanating from the Whitehouse
> 
> Trump has now gone to  Walter Reed hospital with a persistent cough and low grade fever.
> Contract tracers still haven't got a list  of the hundreds of people who Trump  interacted with in the past couple of days. Trump was at a large fund raiser in New Jersey.
> Three White House reporters have just been diagnosed with COVID. They are now claiming the Whitehouse is responsible by creating an unsafe workplace
> Donald thinks he is doing "very well".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump hospitalized following Covid diagnosis as ex-aide Kellyanne Conway tests positive – as it happened
> 
> 
> Conway is the seventh person at Rose Garden event announcing Amy Coney Barrett’s supreme court nomination to test positive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



I'd be more interested following the line of where he got it from. I know it was one of his staff. But where did she pick it up.

Lets see if it hits Donald hard. He is in the age bracket for serious consequences. 
If it doesn't it floor him, it will be a bragging point to reopen imo.


----------



## basilio

Apparently Trump is having difficulty breathing.  This is less than day since he was diagnosed. That isn't a good sign. Boris Johnston lasted 8 days before he went to hospital.






*As ‘the clock starts ticking’ after coronavirus infection, Trump faces an uncertain road ahead*








						As 'the clock starts ticking' with Covid-19, Trump faces an uncertain road
					

The news that Trump has mild symptoms tell us nothing about what the disease might have in store for him, physicians who treat Covid-19 warn.




					www.statnews.com
				












						Explained: Donald Trump's coronavirus symptoms, including a cough, mild fever, and lethargy
					

President Trump is experiencing mild symptoms of COVID-19, including a cough, congestion, low-grade fever, and fatigue, the New York Times reported Friday.




					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## DB008

basilio said:


> Apparently Trump is having difficulty breathing.




Source?


Trump will be fine



> Dr Conley said in a statement that the 74-year-old President received an intravenous dose of Regeneron Pharmaceuticals' dual antibody and was also taking zinc, vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and aspirin.
> 
> Regeneron's drug, REGN-COV2, is part of a class of experimental COVID-19 drugs known as monoclonal antibodies: manufactured copies of human antibodies to the virus that are being studied for use in patients with early illness.
> 
> The technique is already in wide use for treating a range of illnesses.





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-03/donald-trump-coronavirus-hospital-treated-experimental-drug/12728390​


----------



## Knobby22

DB008 said:


> Source?
> 
> 
> Trump will be fine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-03/donald-trump-coronavirus-hospital-treated-experimental-drug/12728390​



USA public comment
He gets the cutting edge care available only to the rich and powerful. And we can’t even afford our insulin.


----------



## basilio

Source of concern re Trumps breathing

*White House officials have ‘serious concerns’ over President Trump’s COVID-19 symptoms*
White House officials are said to be extremely worried about Donald Trump’s health, with claims his virus symptoms are “serious”.









						‘Serious concerns’ about Trump’s health after COVID-19 diagnosis
					

White House officials are said to be extremely worried about Donald Trump, with sources claiming his virus symptoms are “worse” than those of the First Lady.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Source of concern re Trumps breathing
> 
> *White House officials have ‘serious concerns’ over President Trump’s COVID-19 symptoms*
> White House officials are said to be extremely worried about Donald Trump’s health, with claims his virus symptoms are “serious”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Serious concerns’ about Trump’s health after COVID-19 diagnosis
> 
> 
> White House officials are said to be extremely worried about Donald Trump, with sources claiming his virus symptoms are “worse” than those of the First Lady.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news.com.au



The source was from Jim accosta (from cnn) twitter account.  Might as well have read tea leaves. Needs a credible source.


----------



## satanoperca

The Dons Doctor Yesterday 

Less than 24 hours later, off to hospital, something changed.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> The source was from Jim accosta (from cnn) twitter account.  Might as well have read tea leaves. Needs a credible source.



Why not use Donald trump as a credible source ?   "He's all good."  "This will all go away ".  "He doesn't have to worry about being infected."

Forget Jim Accosta being the mouthpiece for Trumps breathing difficulties. He is saying this comes from a Whitehouse source.  Normal "don't quote me but..." stuff.

Anyway time will tell.

And you can add *Mary Anne Conway* to the sorry list of Trump contacts who is also infected. And * 4 GOP Senators *( I think) who caught COVID from Trump.


----------



## bellenuit

moXJO said:


> Let the jokes and memes begin!












						40 Memes Reacting to Trump's Coronavirus Diagnosis - The Political Punchline
					

A roundup of memorable memes and tweets reacting to President Donald Trump contracting coronavirus.     See Also: 40 of the Best Coronavirus Memes   Next > 25 of the Best Presidential Debate Memes



					politicalpunchline.com


----------



## Knobby22

Have to say the Trum


bellenuit said:


> 40 Memes Reacting to Trump's Coronavirus Diagnosis - The Political Punchline
> 
> 
> A roundup of memorable memes and tweets reacting to President Donald Trump contracting coronavirus.     See Also: 40 of the Best Coronavirus Memes   Next > 25 of the Best Presidential Debate Memes
> 
> 
> 
> politicalpunchline.com



Trump  catching Covid is good for Victoria. We might get out of it a week earlier.


----------



## IFocus

It sounds serious throwing trial drugs at him already,


----------



## IFocus

Could be a problem from Trump passing the virus onto GOP senators who I am assuming will not be available to vote for the Supreme Court conformation hearing


----------



## satanoperca

IFocus said:


> It sounds serious throwing trial drugs at him already,



It does doesn't and get it is official that he has received them, no fake news, came from his doctor, if he was well and good, and this is just the flu and his is healthy, why would you risk it.


----------



## basilio

Moderater Fox News anchor Chris Wallace is getting a Covid test.
Has lots to say about staying safe from COVID.  Makes good sense IMO.









						Debate moderator Chris Wallace: 'I'm going to have to get a test'
					

The Fox News anchor said that "what you saw on the TV is the closest I got to the president."




					www.politico.com


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Why not use Donald trump as a credible source ?   "He's all good."  "This will all go away ".  "He doesn't have to worry about being infected."
> 
> Forget Jim Accosta being the mouthpiece for Trumps breathing difficulties. He is saying this comes from a Whitehouse source.  Normal "don't quote me but..." stuff.
> 
> Anyway time will tell.
> 
> And you can add *Mary Anne Conway* to the sorry list of Trump contacts who is also infected. And * 4 GOP Senators *( I think) who caught COVID from Trump.



Accosta is shocking. If it came from someone credible (which is few and far between these days) I might trust it. But as you said "time will tell".


----------



## basilio

Never gonna happen eh ? 

*Trump’s Medical Treatment To Be Capped At $750* 







Saying the last thing they wanted was for Donald Trump to be a drain on the system, health officials have confirmed that the President’s treatment for COVID-19 will be capped at the level of his annual tax contribution.

“He’ll get the best medical treatment $750 can buy,” a health department spokesperson said, noting that the President’s treatment will need to be wrapped up around seven minutes into his initial consultation.

“After that he’ll be on his own – but he’ll be pleased to know he isn’t relying on other people’s hard work and taxes to subsidise his own care”.

A White House aide said she welcomed the news. “We’d hate for Donald to think he was leaching off the system. The idea that someone would get access to healthcare beyond the amount of tax they pay is repulsive to him. That’s socialism”.









						Trump’s Medical Treatment To Be Capped At $750
					

"The last thing Donald Trump would want is to be a drain on the system"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio

Excellent story on ABC news highlighting the  disparity of information about Donald Trumps condition. Seems that the White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is offerng more sober background briefings than the official story.

*The world wants the truth about Donald Trump's health after his positive coronavirus test. Don't count on getting it*









						It was the proof Americans wanted but Trump's video looks like an attempt at damage control
					

A disastrous press conference from US President Donald Trump's doctors left the world wondering if it can trust the White House to tell the truth about the health of one of the most powerful leaders on the planet, writes Emily Olson.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Excellent story on ABC news highlighting the  disparity of information about Donald Trumps condition. Seems that the White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is offerng more sober background briefings than the official story.
> 
> *The world wants the truth about Donald Trump's health after his positive coronavirus test. Don't count on getting it*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the proof Americans wanted but Trump's video looks like an attempt at damage control
> 
> 
> A disastrous press conference from US President Donald Trump's doctors left the world wondering if it can trust the White House to tell the truth about the health of one of the most powerful leaders on the planet, writes Emily Olson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au



Doctors say fine.
Chief of staff says not so fine.
Weird tactic.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Doctors say fine.
> Chief of staff says not so fine.
> Weird tactic.



Only weird if you think they do not need to cover their lies.

As the Don lies, so his staff must follow suit, it is hard to get a story right, if everyone is lying and not telling the truth.

This is such simple stuff, what makes a good president, one that every second word is not a lie.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Excellent story on ABC news highlighting the  disparity of information about Donald Trumps condition. Seems that the White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is offerng more sober background briefings than the official story.
> 
> *The world wants the truth about Donald Trump's health after his positive coronavirus test. Don't count on getting it*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the proof Americans wanted but Trump's video looks like an attempt at damage control
> 
> 
> A disastrous press conference from US President Donald Trump's doctors left the world wondering if it can trust the White House to tell the truth about the health of one of the most powerful leaders on the planet, writes Emily Olson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au




*The world wants the truth about Donald Trump's health after his positive coronavirus test. Don't count on getting it from the MSM as they are always lying when it comes to reporting on Trump.*


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> *The world wants the truth about Donald Trump's health after his positive coronavirus test. Don't count on getting it from the MSM as they are always lying when it comes to reporting on Trump.*



So who does tell the truth, The Don himself, sorry pissed my self laughing?


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> sorry pissed my self laughing?



I don't know, but if you say so.
This may help...




__





						Men's & Women's Incontinence Medicine Online | Chemist Warehouse
					

Buy Men's and Women's Incontinence online at Chemist Warehouse and enjoy huge discounts across the entire range. Shop products online, in store or via click and collect today.




					www.chemistwarehouse.com.au


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> I don't know, but if you say so.
> This may help...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men's & Women's Incontinence Medicine Online | Chemist Warehouse
> 
> 
> Buy Men's and Women's Incontinence online at Chemist Warehouse and enjoy huge discounts across the entire range. Shop products online, in store or via click and collect today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chemistwarehouse.com.au



Thanks, I have stocked up with the popcorn, but missed the incontinence pads for everytime I read or heard something about how credible the Don is, that makes me piss myself with laughter.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> Thanks, I have stocked up with the popcorn, but missed the incontinence pads for everytime I read or heard something about how credible the Don is, that makes me piss myself with laughter.



You've  definitely got a problem.


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> You've  definitely got a problem.



What with :
A. Laughing
B. Laughing at everyone who believes the Don is credible and honest
C. I am just a deranged lunatic, who gains please out taking the p---s out of people
D. All three


----------



## DB008

but, but, but...he's a racist....


​



lol

What a joke the MSM has become...


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> So who does tell the truth.



Yes who?

Or is the Don the source of all lies for everyone?


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Yes who?
> 
> Or is the Don the source of all lies for everyone?




That comment makes no sense, can you explain?


----------



## IFocus

Common guys FFS Regan signed in to law an act while mostly dead (after being shot) as the white house were desperate to prove how every thing was OK do you really expect Trumps admin to be different?

Are you so naïve? 

Trump is in serious trouble through sheer incompetence same as his time in the white house seriously how fu(king stupid do you have to be to mock people wearing masks etc? Check out the Rose garden audience then look who has tested positive?


----------



## sptrawler

One thing for sure he certainly is a media magnet, he attracts just as much media attention when he is in hospital, as he does when he is driving the "Big Chair'.
We have two full pages of postings, just debating if it is serious, the concern is overwhelming. I'm tearing up reading everyone's comments.😂


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> One thing for sure he certainly is a media magnet, he attracts just as much media attention when he is in hospital, as he does when he is driving the "Big Chair'.
> We have two full pages of postings, just debating if it is serious, the concern is overwhelming. I'm tearing up reading everyone's comments.😂



What do you expect. He is the President.
Ramifications are enormous.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> What do you expect. He is the President.
> Ramifications are enormous.



That's true, i don't think any of the posts actually cover the ramifications, do you?


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> That comment makes no sense, can you explain?



Who is telling the truth these days. Everything and every statement is carefully crafted for someones agenda. It is getting extremely hard for me to even fact check things now as Google has been burying details deep. Even other search engines are getting difficult. 

The original point was that:
Trump lies.
Majority of those against Trump have lied.

Not much truth anywhere.

Who do we believe?

Can't trust the media. They have blown any reasonable belief they are unbiased out of the water.

Social media has more evidence then news outlets. But its an absolute swamp. 

You can barely trust sites saying they are fact checkers.


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> That's true, i don't think any of the posts actually cover the ramifications, do you?



Debate was the  "worst in history". But the ratings I think were the best ever. Media is going to die without him. He has been front-page continuously since he ran.

The world turned into its own reality tv show.


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## dutchie

Trump Throws Biden Off His Game By Wearing Luscious Women's Wig To Debate
September 29th, 2020




48.1kShares
37.1kSHARE
5kSHARE
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CLEVELAND, OH—In a diabolical power-move that threw off Biden's debate game and shocked the audience, Trump went into his debate with Biden wearing a woman's wig. 

"I'll bet you didn't expect this," said Trump as he tossed the hair back and forth in front of Biden's nose. "You want to sniff it, don't ya? What's the matter? Cat got your tongue?"
Moderator Chris Wallace looked off in the distance and shed a tear, wondering what had become of his career as well as his country. "OK, Mr. President, can we put the wig down? We have some important questions to ask here," he said.
"No, I think I like it. I think I'll keep wearing it." Trump turned to the audience. "What do you think folks? Should I keep it?" 
The crowd of supporters screamed their approval. As the debate dragged on, Biden got more visibly uncomfortable as he kept eyeing Trump's high-quality wig.
Finally, unable to stand it anymore, Biden dove across the stage, grabbed Trump's shoulders, and sunk his nose deep into the flowing locks.
Chis Wallace shed another tear, obviously touched by Biden's passionate gesture.
"Aww, classic Joe!" responded a CNN anchor covering the event.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Who is telling the truth these days. Everything and every statement is carefully crafted for someones agenda. It is getting extremely hard for me to even fact check things now as Google has been burying details deep. Even other search engines are getting difficult.
> 
> The original point was that:
> Trump lies.
> Majority of those against Trump have lied.
> 
> Not much truth anywhere.
> 
> Who do we believe?
> 
> Can't trust the media. They have blown any reasonable belief they are unbiased out of the water.
> 
> Social media has more evidence then news outlets. But its an absolute swamp.
> 
> You can barely trust sites saying they are fact checkers.




Well the White House doctor said today he is telling the truth this time and Trump is doing extremely well.....and he is on a cortosoid used for the seriously ill Covid patients.

The trouble is we can't believe anything we hear because Trump is telling everyone what he wants them to say and he can't lie straight in bed.

We would thought he was very mild and was just being safe if it wasn't for the mainstream media finding out the truth.


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> the mainstream media finding out the truth.



That's an oxymoron.


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> That's an oxymoron.



No, it's called doing their job.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Well the White House doctor said today he is telling the truth this time and Trump is doing extremely well.....and he is on a cortosoid used for the seriously ill Covid patients.
> 
> The trouble is we can't believe anything we hear because Trump is telling everyone what he wants them to say and he can't lie straight in bed.
> 
> We would thought he was very mild and was just being safe if it wasn't for the mainstream media finding out the truth.



He did a drive by.
Drugs must be working. 

I don't know how he has the energy to keep campaigning.


----------



## basilio

Indeed he did a drive by. Ordered his secret service staff to put hm in the Beast and  gee up the troops waiting outside the White House.

*And this is while he is COVID infectious in a hermetically sealed vehicle. *The secret service guys must be really delighted with the opportunity to join Trump in isolation if not infection. What an absolute self obsessed narcissist..








						‘This is insanity’: Walter Reed physician among critics of Donald Trump drive-by visit
					

President briefly left hospital for surprise drive past supporters with at least two others in vehicle




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dutchie

Knobby22 said:


> doing their job.



Another oxymoron.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

basilio said:


> Indeed he did a drive by. Ordered his secret service staff to put hm in the Beast and  gee up the troops waiting outside the White House.
> 
> *And this is while he is COVID infectious in a hermetically sealed vehicle. *The secret service guys must be really delighted with the opportunity to join Trump in isolation if not infection. What an absolute self obsessed narcissist..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘This is insanity’: Walter Reed physician among critics of Donald Trump drive-by visit
> 
> 
> President briefly left hospital for surprise drive past supporters with at least two others in vehicle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



This raises a deeper question.

It goes without saying that Trump is a fool and narcissist, a performer but a very poor leader of his country.

What does it say though about the American people, that nearly fifty percent of those who could bother to vote, voted him in. 

All empires fall, I never thought I'd live through the fall of the USA.

gg


----------



## basilio

One of the most detailed, factual accounts of the progress of Donald Trumps fight with COVID seems to be in the Daily Mail..
Long read but complete.









						'This is insanity': Walter Reed doctor slams Trump for drive-by
					

Dr James Phillips, a doctor at Walter Reed, reacted with anger on Sunday night to Donald Trump's drive-by outside the hospital to wave at supporters, saying it was 'insanity'.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> He did a drive by.
> Drugs must be working.
> 
> I don't know how he has the energy to keep campaigning.




He is a genius in campaigning. A whole motorcade just to drive out of the hospital and wave and then go back in.
All this guff about his driver risking Covid just plays into his hands.
Biden will not get any airtime - which is the point.

The non stop real life reality show that he has created for his fans is just awesome.
What will he do next? This election is far from over. His polling  will improve from this, mark my words.


----------



## Macquack

Knobby22 said:


> What will he do next?



"Weekend at Bernies" comes to mind.


----------



## basilio

Knobby22 said:


> He is a genius in campaigning. A whole motorcade just to drive out of the hospital and wave and then go back in.
> All this guff about his driver risking Covid just plays into his hands.
> Biden will not get any airtime - which is the point.
> 
> The non stop real life reality show that he has created for his fans is just awesome.
> What will he do next? This election is far from over. His polling  will improve from this, mark my words.




Seriously ?  I think Trump has taken a serious electoral hit and the damage is far from over

1) The current and spreading illnesses amongst his staff are undermining his campaign capacity. It seems extremely unlikely that he will be in any position to hold rallies or debates for a minimum of two weeks.
2) He has irrevocably lost any semblance of credibility with his response to COVID. His incapacity/unwillingness to protect himself, his staff and his supporters will cost him many conservative votes as well as anyone still thinking about their vote.
3) This new reality just underlines the contrast with Joe Biden who has consistently stressed the need for protective actions on COVID
5) The process of appointing the new Supreme Court nominee is under a cloud with the sickness of Rep. nominess on the committee.

The latest polls show a 14 point lead to Biden. 

_An NBC News/Wall Street Journal national poll conducted after the debate found Mr Biden on 53% and his rival on 39% - a gap six points wider than in their previous poll two weeks earlier.

But more worrying for the president are two battleground state polls conducted by the New York Times and Siena College that found Mr Biden ahead by seven points in Pennsylvania and five points in Florida.

Overall, it doesn't appear that the president's debate performance helped him close the gap on his rival.









						US election 2020 polls: Who is ahead - Trump or Biden?
					

An in-depth look at the polls and what they can and can’t tell us about who will win the White House.



					www.bbc.com
				



_


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  I think Trump has taken a serious electoral hit and the damage is far from over
> 
> 1) The current and spreading illnesses amongst his staff are undermining his campaign capacity. It seems extremely unlikely that he will be in any position to hold rallies or debates for a minimum of two weeks.
> 2) He has irrevocably lost any semblance of credibility with his response to COVID. His incapacity/unwillingness to protect himself, his staff and his supporters will cost him many conservative votes as well as anyone still thinking about their vote.
> 3) This new reality just underlines the contrast with Joe Biden who has consistently stressed the need for protective actions on COVID
> 5) The process of appointing the new Supreme Court nominee is under a cloud with the sickness of Rep. nominess on the committee.
> 
> The latest polls show a 14 point lead to Biden.
> 
> _An NBC News/Wall Street Journal national poll conducted after the debate found Mr Biden on 53% and his rival on 39% - a gap six points wider than in their previous poll two weeks earlier.
> 
> But more worrying for the president are two battleground state polls conducted by the New York Times and Siena College that found Mr Biden ahead by seven points in Pennsylvania and five points in Florida.
> 
> Overall, it doesn't appear that the president's debate performance helped him close the gap on his rival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US election 2020 polls: Who is ahead - Trump or Biden?
> 
> 
> An in-depth look at the polls and what they can and can’t tell us about who will win the White House.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _




Polls are a joke.

(see the ones before the last election)


----------



## orr

Dutchie you were  given a directive from potus and told to '_stand down and stand by_'...  Biden 14 points up in some polls(just saying it feels good)

If comedy isn't somebody screaming from the roof tops not to wear belts and then only to see their pants fall down... I'd like to know what is...
(thanks SNL)


----------



## dutchie

orr said:


> Dutchie you were  given a directive from potus and told to '_stand down and stand by_'...  Biden 14 points up in some polls(just saying it feels good)
> 
> If comedy isn't somebody screaming from the roof tops not to wear belts and then only to see their pants fall down... I'd like to know what is...
> (thanks SNL)




Hillary felt pretty good before the vote. She's been spewing for the last four years.

This lady followed the polls religiously at the last election









The results of the last polls caused the wide spread of TDS. It even spread to some Australians.


----------



## Knobby22

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  I think Trump has taken a serious electoral hit and the damage is far from over




He took the hit from the debate. The Covid episode of this soapy will help him over time. 
Don't think it will get him over the line however.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  I think Trump has taken a serious electoral hit and the damage is far from over
> 
> 1) The current and spreading illnesses amongst his staff are undermining his campaign capacity. It seems extremely unlikely that he will be in any position to hold rallies or debates for a minimum of two weeks.
> 2) He has irrevocably lost any semblance of credibility with his response to COVID. His incapacity/unwillingness to protect himself, his staff and his supporters will cost him many conservative votes as well as anyone still thinking about their vote.
> 3) This new reality just underlines the contrast with Joe Biden who has consistently stressed the need for protective actions on COVID
> 5) The process of appointing the new Supreme Court nominee is under a cloud with the sickness of Rep. nominess on the committee.
> 
> The latest polls show a 14 point lead to Biden.
> 
> _An NBC News/Wall Street Journal national poll conducted after the debate found Mr Biden on 53% and his rival on 39% - a gap six points wider than in their previous poll two weeks earlier.
> 
> But more worrying for the president are two battleground state polls conducted by the New York Times and Siena College that found Mr Biden ahead by seven points in Pennsylvania and five points in Florida.
> 
> Overall, it doesn't appear that the president's debate performance helped him close the gap on his rival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US election 2020 polls: Who is ahead - Trump or Biden?
> 
> 
> An in-depth look at the polls and what they can and can’t tell us about who will win the White House.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



If Trump survives he is still in the race. As a grandmother of mine would say " Americans are thick ".

Their knowledge by in large of the world outside of the USA is limited. Their "truth" is a modern day version of the Roman Empire's "bread and circuses". They are fed a daily diet of McDonalds, Wendys and Moms Apple Pie, at least the majority who aren't malnourished, sick, poor or unlucky are. They receive their news, fake or not, from Fox and CNN and are not open other than to grimly held beliefs.

Many are even greater godbothering bastards than the Ayatollahs, just bother a different god.

Those of the ilk above are rusted on to Trump. His opposition is a gaga failure as a politician with a running mate most Americans would indeed run from.

I've closed my book temporarily on bets on Trump winning in deference to his illness and more importantly my cashbox.

He is the sort of silly bastard who could come back and win " only in America ".

gg


----------



## moXJO

No one would know who Biden is if Trump did


basilio said:


> Seriously ?  I think Trump has taken a serious electoral hit and the damage is far from over
> 
> 1) The current and spreading illnesses amongst his staff are undermining his campaign capacity. It seems extremely unlikely that he will be in any position to hold rallies or debates for a minimum of two weeks.
> 2) He has irrevocably lost any semblance of credibility with his response to COVID. His incapacity/unwillingness to protect himself, his staff and his supporters will cost him many conservative votes as well as anyone still thinking about their vote.
> 3) This new reality just underlines the contrast with Joe Biden who has consistently stressed the need for protective actions on COVID
> 5) The process of appointing the new Supreme Court nominee is under a cloud with the sickness of Rep. nominess on the committee.
> 
> The latest polls show a 14 point lead to Biden.
> 
> _An NBC News/Wall Street Journal national poll conducted after the debate found Mr Biden on 53% and his rival on 39% - a gap six points wider than in their previous poll two weeks earlier.
> 
> But more worrying for the president are two battleground state polls conducted by the New York Times and Siena College that found Mr Biden ahead by seven points in Pennsylvania and five points in Florida.
> 
> Overall, it doesn't appear that the president's debate performance helped him close the gap on his rival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US election 2020 polls: Who is ahead - Trump or Biden?
> 
> 
> An in-depth look at the polls and what they can and can’t tell us about who will win the White House.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



Nyt is rabid. Hard to take anything away from them.
I think the debate was a vote loser for Trump. But we have the next talking point washing out the last one. And there is a long way to go yet in Trump time.

I think he will lose, but its damn hard to tell.


----------



## moXJO

HISTORIC MOMENTS IN HISTORY COIN: PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP DEFEATS COVID WITH ICONS OF HIS ENTIRE FIRST TERM! LIMITED EDITION, GIANNINI SERIES AS SEEN WORLDWIDE, EDGE NUMBERED EDITION, PRE-ORDER SHIPS NOV 14, 2020


That's right people, its official now its in coin form.
Although it doesn't ship till November 14 so still got time for the backup "Covid defeats Trump" coin.

Get in fast I bought 50...
https://www.whitehousegiftshop.com/product-p/trump-defeats-covid.htm


----------



## Smurf1976

Garpal Gumnut said:


> If Trump survives he is still in the race.



I'll simply say I'm suspicious of the whole thing.

I've posted previously my view that Trump is first and foremost a showman. He's akin to a magician or an elaborately choreographed dance routine at a concert. All aimed at diverting attention from what the magician is really doing and getting you to look at something else, or diverting attention from the fact that the singer is doing everything except actually singing live.

I don't know what's going on, but I sure don't trust what's being shown.

Does he really have COVID-19?

Is that Trump in the car or is it an impersonator? Covered by a mask and visible only from a distance the latter wouldn't be even slightly difficult.

I could be completely wrong but I don't trust this at all.


----------



## bellenuit

I would be suspicious were it not for the sheer number of other close associates that have tested positive. I don't believe they all are faking and it's looking more and more like Trump was the spreader. There are many question marks over when he first tested positive with plausible suggestions that he had it prior to the debate. He arrive just 5 minutes before hand, not allowing sufficient time to be tested, as was the requirement.

I believe the car ride was genuine, because he has now returned to the WH. However, I think he is still seriously ill and the next week is going to reveal the truth.


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> I would be suspicious were it not for the sheer number of other close associates that have tested positive. I don't believe they all are faking and it's looking more and more like Trump was the spreader. There are many question marks over when he first tested positive with plausible suggestions that he had it prior to the debate. He arrive just 5 minutes before hand, not allowing sufficient time to be tested, as was the requirement.
> 
> I believe the car ride was genuine, because he has now returned to the WH. However, I think he is still seriously ill and the next week is going to reveal the truth.



The truth is that the majority of people don't get it that bad. Obviously they have drugs to treat it. Covid isn't the death sentence the media has made it out to be.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> The truth is that the majority of people don't get it that bad. Obviously they have drugs to treat it. Covid isn't the death sentence the media has made it out to be.




COVID isn't a "death sentence".. It never has been.  It never will be. That accusation is just a beat up bit of BS to undermine the reality of COVID 19.

It is very infectious. It is well and truly out of control across the US as well most of Europe,  India, South America, Africa etc era, etc era.

And it has killed and severely affected many millions of people. So it is a serious health problem. Treatment methods have improved but clearly there is no way anyone but the President of the US is going to get the full range of possible (still experimental ) drug treatments.

And he certainly isn't out of danger yet.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> COVID isn't a "death sentence".. It never has been.  It never will be. That accusation is just a beat up bit of BS to undermine the reality of COVID 19.
> 
> It is very infectious. It is well and truly out of control across the US as well most of Europe,  India, South America, Africa etc era, etc era.
> 
> And it has killed and severely affected many millions of people. So it is a serious health problem. Treatment methods have improved but clearly there is no way anyone but the President of the US is going to get the full range of possible (still experimental ) drug treatments.
> 
> And he certainly isn't out of danger yet.




Depending on his health the risk is pretty low.





Its blown out of proportion to a degree. Yes its highly contagious. But seems to attack those with pre-existing conditions.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Its blown out of proportion to a degree. Yes its highly contagious. But seems to attack those with pre-existing conditions.




Hmm.  So you say. I wonder how the 210,000 Americans  who have already died and their families viewed the situation?


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## basilio

Thanks Bellenuit.
That's a challenging list of Trump campaign managers who can't seem to avoid being caught for a full deck of  felonies and stupidities.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Hmm.  So you say. I wonder how the 210,000 Americans  who have already died and their families viewed the situation?





Hmm statistics don't lie no matter which way you try and bend them bas.


----------



## moXJO

Russian collusion documents have been released by Trump. Looks like Hillary set it up.


----------



## satanoperca

The difference between lies and the truth, put so simply, regardless of race, religion, political beliefs.








						Michelle Obama brands Trump a ‘racist’ and a ‘liar’
					

Former US first lady Michelle Obama has blasted President Donald Trump, labelling him a racist and a liar in an explosive plea to voters.




					www.news.com.au
				



So a woman is honest and a man is not, let the flames begin.


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 112750





You cannot make this stuff up no one would believe you.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Hmm statistics don't lie no matter which way you try and bend them bas.



Can you explain your comment further please?


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Russian collusion documents have been released by Trump. Looks like Hillary set it up.



Can you provide some further detail to a very vague statement?


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Hmm statistics don't lie no matter which way you try and bend them bas.




"Lies, damned lies and statistics" Mark Twain.
I'm sure the families of the 210,000 people who have so far died from the COVID virus would not give a flying xuck for attempts to bury this disaster in creative accounting. Obviously that is why The Lincoln Project highlighted the lonely, individual death of each person.

But if one was interested in stats then perhaps we could compare  the current *(not final ..*) US COVID death toll of 210,000  to

Korean War..........................36,500
Vietnam War........................ 58,200
Afgan War...............................2,200
Iraq War................................ 4,500
Gulf War ...................................294

WW1....................................116,500
WW2..................................405,400

It is also worth pointing out that the Vietnam War ran for at least 10 years, Iraq war8 years, Afgan war  19 years, WW2 5 years and the COVID death toll is only  9 months old and still growing strongly.





__





						United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Can you provide some further detail to a very vague statement?



Trump has declassified the Russian scandal investigations and the Hillary emails. No redactions. As soon as the documents are available I'll post them up.

I'm hearing Hillary set it up to distract from the emails. Fbi is deeply involved.
But until I see it, its all hearsay.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> "Lies, damned lies and statistics" Mark Twain.
> I'm sure the families of the 210,000 people who have so far died from the COVID virus would not give a flying xuck for attempts to bury this disaster in creative accounting. Obviously that is why The Lincoln Project highlighted the lonely, individual death of each person.
> 
> But if one was interested in stats then perhaps we should compare  the current *(not final ..*) US COVID death toll of 210,000  to
> 
> Korean War..........................36,500
> Vietnam War........................ 58,200
> Afgan War...............................2,200
> Iraq War................................ 4,500
> Gulf War ...................................294
> 
> WW1....................................116,500
> WW2..................................405,400




Pretty sure all of the US didn't go to war. Do deaths per million for the troops that went to war.



*1. Heart disease

Number of deaths per year:* 635,260


*2. Cancer

Number of deaths per year:* 598,038










						12 Leading Causes of Death in the United States
					

Do you know all the leading causes of death in the United States? The fourth cause in our list may surprise you. The top 12 causes of death in the United States account for more than 75 percent of all deaths. Learn about each of the main causes and what can be done to prevent them.




					www.healthline.com
				



.

Wave that flag and put these on Trump as well. 
He has given more lefties strokes from tds then any other cause. I also suspect he has a hand in cancer.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> But until I see it, its all *hearsay.*



Exactly, I experted more of you moXJO, you are falling into the trap of fake news,


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Wave that flag and put these on Trump as well.
> He has given more lefties strokes from tds then any other cause. I also suspect he has a hand in cancer.



You are starting to become irrational with your statements.

Lets look at this in a more simplistic view (break it down):
1. Is the virus contagious - YES
2. Can it kill people - YES, before you think, yes I understand the demographics, but bear with me
3. Does The Don have it - YES
4. Does he as an infected person follow any of the broad medical views to protect others that might come into contact with it, ie wearing a f---king mask. - NO

Conclusion, keep defending a lier who puts other peoples lives at risk.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> You are starting to become irrational with your statements.
> 
> Lets look at this in a more simplistic view (break it down):
> 1. Is the virus contagious - YES
> 2. Can it kill people - YES, before you think, yes I understand the demographics, but bear with me
> 3. Does The Don have it - YES
> 4. Does he as an infected person follow any of the broad medical views to protect others that might come into contact with it, ie wearing a f---king mask. - NO
> 
> Conclusion, keep defending a lier who puts other peoples lives at risk.



No I pointed out the scare campaign on it being a death sentence was exaggerated. I then put up the stats of the death rate by age group.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Exactly, I experted more of you moXJO, you are falling into the trap of fake news,



No its based off a previous letter that needs further verification:


----------



## moXJO

moXJO said:


> No its based off a previous letter that needs further verification:
> 
> View attachment 112766




Sorry, I expect everyone to be at least minimally informed on the subject when I post. Most aren't.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Sorry, I expect everyone to be at least minimally informed on the subject when I post. Most aren't.



That is a statement, not proof. He said, she said, who cares, the Don lies, when can you accept that, and puts others life in danger.

Then once you accept it, that he is a child, lets debate whether the Hills is also honest, but last I checked, she does does not have access to the big red button, nucks


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> That is a statement, not proof. He said, she said, who cares, the Don lies, when can you accept that, and puts others life in danger.
> 
> Then once you accept it, that he is a child, lets debate whether the Hills is also honest, but last I checked, she does does not have access to the big red button, nucks



Where did I say it was proof?
I said it needed verification. 

It was an attempt at removing a sitting US President. And they also bugged a Presidential candidate. 

Go back through the thread for my opinions on Trump. I've said it enough. I support policy positions of his as I believe its the right direction.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Where did I say it was proof?
> I said it needed verification.
> 
> It was an attempt at removing a sitting US President. And they also bugged a Presidential candidate.
> 
> Go back through the thread for my opinions on Trump. I've said it enough. I support policy positions of his as I believe its the right direction.




So you support a lier, not just a lier, a consistent lier, who also puts other people's wellbeing at risk. YES?NO simple question


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> No I pointed out the scare campaign on it being a death sentence was exaggerated. I then put up the stats of the death rate by age group.



You should be a polly, unable to answer a question, diversion is easy, honesty is far harder.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> So you support a lier, not just a lier, a consistent lier, who also puts other people's wellbeing at risk. YES?NO simple question



I support numerous policies that I believe will lead to better outcomes in the future. It is very rare I support one personality. 

If you are to lazy to do the minimum of investigating my previous posts on Trump then I'm not going to bother to rehash.

It doesn't which side you support, you will always be in support of a liar.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> You should be a polly, unable to answer a question, diversion is easy, honesty is far harder.




Umm you have so far called into question stats and facts. And also this diversion from the truth of what I posted.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Umm you have so far called into question stats and facts. And also this diversion from the truth of what I posted.



Nice, but need to do better, still just a polly.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Umm you have so far called into question stats and facts. And also this diversion from the truth of what I posted.



You have only provided hearsay, I can get that down at the kindergarten, if it was open in Vic

So I will ask again, gets boring when you ask the same question, and cannot get a reply, you support or believe that someone that consistently lies if of somevalue? YES/NO.

I know it is a simple question, but when you build robust systems, if the start is built on bull****, it doesn't matter how much you polish it, the end is the same.

Waiting for the diversion again.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> So I will ask again, gets boring when you ask the same question, and cannot get a reply, you support or believe that someone that consistently lies if of somevalue? YES/NO.



This is a different question from before.

In this case yes. If someone has the ability to shape policy that is achieving outcomes that stop deaths or are leading in the right direction. Then of course it has value. That doesn't mean I like all the policy. But if its between two liars then I'm not picking on looks.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> You have only provided hearsay, I can get that down at the kindergarten, if it was open in Vic
> 
> So I will ask again, gets boring when you ask the same question, and cannot get a reply, you support or believe that someone that consistently lies if of somevalue? YES/NO.
> 
> I know it is a simple question, but when you build robust systems, if the start is built on bull****, it doesn't matter how much you polish it, the end is the same.
> 
> Waiting for the diversion again.



From moXJO - " It doesn't matter which side you support, you will always be in support of a liar. "

So which liar do you support?


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> From moXJO - " It doesn't matter which side you support, you will always be in support of a liar. "
> 
> So which liar do you support?



In this case, the one that lies least.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> In this case, the one that lies least.



So your obviously principled, as you will only support the liar who(m) lies least.  Awesome.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> In this case, the one that lies least.



Are you sure Biden is lying the least?


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Are you sure Biden is lying the least?



I do not know, but if he is lying more than Trump, that would have to be a world record.

Unfortunately, I think the USA empire is on death doors, sad but a reality, all I hope is that do not drag the planet into war. If they do, it will not matter what we think, as most of us will perish.


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> Unfortunately, I think the USA empire is on death doors, sad but a reality, all I hope is that do not drag the planet into war. If they do, it will not matter what we think, as most of us will perish.



I think you are right.
Civil war, in the USA, is just around the corner.
That is why we have to stand up to wokism (including CRT), BLM, antifa (the definitive fascists) and defend freedom of speech.


----------



## IFocus

So the divisive mess that's currently the USA has arrived and abetted under Trump leadership.

How is he going to fix that when he literally runs a circus administration and was very evident during the debate and of course the failures around Corona now being condemned by the New England Journal of Medicine  1st time in 200 years they have done that.

Mo interested in what policy's you think Trump has done well?

Carry on.


----------



## satanoperca

I'll give it a crack!

_" The US national debt is at the highest levels since World War II, and US economic growth is set to average just above 0% for Trump’s first term due to the pandemic recession, per the Washington Post. "_

"Handling of the COVID-19 pandemic resulting in the deaths of over 200,000 Americans"

" Replacing the Affordable Care Act -  What Trump has not done in his first three years is offer a replacement for the Affordable Care Act "

" Trump’s decision to unilaterally withdraw the US from the 2015 nuclear deal in May 2018 has induced chaos throughout the Middle East. "

" America’s global image has declined significantly under Trump, who has repeatedly insulted key US allies while cozying up to dictators. "

*SORRY got the answers wrong way around, what has Chump achieved.*

"Defeating ISIS’s caliphate and killing Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi"

"Tax Reform - not so much credit to him and his swamp loving people, as he doesn't pay any tax anyway, but is so he says, a billionaire"

"Trump’s most lasting impact on the country will be the reshaping of the federal judiciary.  His presidency will continue to have an impact on the direction of the US due to the sheer number of conservative federal judges he’s installed. " Depends on which side of the fence you sit on.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> So the divisive mess that's currently the USA has arrived and abetted under Trump leadership.
> 
> How is he going to fix that when he literally runs a circus administration and was very evident during the debate and of course the failures around Corona now being condemned by the New England Journal of Medicine  1st time in 200 years they have done that.
> 
> Mo interested in what policy's you think Trump has done well?
> 
> Carry on.




His "First Act" and funding of HBCUs is a great start for the black and Hispanic communities.

On top of this he gave businesses that operated in special "opportunity zones" tax incentives. These were set up in distressed cities across the country.

He also cut away a lot of red tape. Oversaw record low black unemployment and poverty. 
What he is doing just makes sense.

Its setting up families in poverty to be able to eventually claw their way out. He is the only one that saw potential in the American worker for a long time and there is a reason the union members are backing him.


The media can biatch and moan but there are a lot of people who actually feel the benefits. And it was record black unemployment and lowest poverty. The media tries to airbrush that. But Trump dissolved a lot of Obama policies and kept what would work.

He seems to be targeting it better then all the president's that have come before him.
If you take a good look at Bidens history (this is the third time Biden has run) and you might understand he is nothing but a swamp donkey.

So that's just one area I think he is doing well in.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> I'll give it a crack!
> 
> _" The US national debt is at the highest levels since World War II, and US economic growth is set to average just above 0% for Trump’s first term due to the pandemic recession, per the Washington Post. "_
> 
> "Handling of the COVID-19 pandemic resulting in the deaths of over 200,000 Americans"
> 
> " Replacing the Affordable Care Act -  What Trump has not done in his first three years is offer a replacement for the Affordable Care Act "
> 
> " Trump’s decision to unilaterally withdraw the US from the 2015 nuclear deal in May 2018 has induced chaos throughout the Middle East. "
> 
> " America’s global image has declined significantly under Trump, who has repeatedly insulted key US allies while cozying up to dictators. "
> 
> *SORRY got the answers wrong way around, what has Chump achieved.*
> 
> "Defeating ISIS’s caliphate and killing Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi"
> 
> "Tax Reform - not so much credit to him and his swamp loving people, as he doesn't pay any tax anyway, but is so he says, a billionaire"
> 
> "Trump’s most lasting impact on the country will be the reshaping of the federal judiciary.  His presidency will continue to have an impact on the direction of the US due to the sheer number of conservative federal judges he’s installed. " Depends on which side of the fence you sit on.



Your feelings on cutting UN funding?
UN minimum spend on military budget?
Trump put US first so the rest of the world was always going to dislike it.

France, Germany and UK turned themselves into basket cases. Nobody cares what they think.


----------



## satanoperca

I care about self-preservation, a natural instinct of all living creatures.

And when a Chump who lies consistently has this at his disposal, I get worried.


----------



## satanoperca

Hi, can you provide some statistical evidence to some of the statements.

Sort of found it, but don't have time to analyze it








						2021Q3 | State unemployment by race and ethnicity
					

As the national unemployment rate continues to fall, Black and Hispanic unemployment rates remain high relative to white unemployment rates. State-level unemployment disparities fell but persist. Claims of a “labor shortage” must take these unemployment disparities into consideration.




					www.epi.org
				






moXJO said:


> His "First Act" and funding of HBCUs is a great start for the black and Hispanic communities.
> 
> On top of this he gave businesses that operated in special "opportunity zones" tax incentives. These were set up in distressed cities across the country.
> 
> He also cut away a lot of red tape. Oversaw record low black unemployment and poverty.
> What he is doing just makes sense.
> 
> Its setting up families in poverty to be able to eventually claw their way out. He is the only one that saw potential in the American worker for a long time and there is a reason the union members are backing him.
> 
> 
> The media can biatch and moan but there are a lot of people who actually feel the benefits. And it was record black unemployment and lowest poverty. The media tries to airbrush that. But Trump dissolved a lot of Obama policies and kept what would work.
> 
> He seems to be targeting it better then all the president's that have come before him.
> If you take a good look at Bidens history (this is the third time Biden has run) and you might understand he is nothing but a swamp donkey.
> 
> So that's just one area I think he is doing well in.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Hi, can you provide some statistical evidence to some of the statements.
> 
> Sort of found it, but don't have time to analyze it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021Q3 | State unemployment by race and ethnicity
> 
> 
> As the national unemployment rate continues to fall, Black and Hispanic unemployment rates remain high relative to white unemployment rates. State-level unemployment disparities fell but persist. Claims of a “labor shortage” must take these unemployment disparities into consideration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.epi.org



Try bing, or duck duck go.

It doesn't matter anyway. I can't see Trump winning as the momentum is against him. The debate and Covid killed any chance.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Try bing, or duck duck go.
> 
> It doesn't matter anyway. I can't see Trump winning as the momentum is against him. The debate and Covid killed any chance.




The truth is he is damaging to the USA.
Many Republicans will be voting to make sure he is gone. Many have formed active anti Trump groups for this purpose.

Another 4 years of divisiveness, chaos, destruction of institutions and encouragement to right wing extremists would wreck the country.


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> Try bing, or duck duck go.
> 
> It doesn't matter anyway. I can't see Trump winning as the momentum is against him. The debate and Covid killed any chance.



Trump will win again.


----------



## basilio

dutchie said:


> Trump will win again.




Indeed Dutchie and his faithful militia will lead the way...

*Federal officials arrest six for plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer*

Federal authorities and Michigan Attorney General held a press conference at 1 p.m. on Thursday to discuss the operation and arrests of seven other men connected to a Michigan militia group, Wolverine Watchmen. 








						6 men arrested in plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer
					

Federal officials are charging six men with plotting to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.




					www.fox2detroit.com


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> The truth is he is damaging to the USA.
> Many Republicans will be voting to make sure he is gone. Many have formed active anti Trump groups for this purpose.
> 
> Another 4 years of divisiveness, chaos, destruction of institutions and encouragement to right wing extremists would wreck the country.



Democrats never accepted that he won and basically attempted a coup.
It wasn't right wing destroying the country. The left burnt it down. Media was onside with the Democrats and have printed every lie they could. Great way to match towards a one party country. 
Many people hate Trump off the back of media propaganda. I doubt many here even know the policies. 

Biden is a liar and has been a consistent one over 47 years. Democrats have perpetrated some of the worst crimes of corruption and yet here we are.


----------



## Miss Hale

Surprised to see so much anti-Trump feeling on this form. You really think Biden is preferable? 

People thinking Trump has no support. Seen his rallies? Seen the people lining the streets when he visits their town? See the people outside Walter Reed when he was sick?  He has masses of support, more than 2016 I believe. The mainstream media is not reflecting reality.


----------



## basilio

Thought this story from Forbes magazine reporting from the New England Journal of Medicine summed up the most critical failure of the Trump  presidency.

*New England Journal Of Medicine Urges Voters To Cast Out Trump Administration*



Matt PerezForbes Staff
Innovation
I cover breaking news.

*Topline*

In a first for the world’s leading medical journal, which has sought to be nonpartisan, The New England Journal of Medicine published an editorial on Wednesday denouncing the Trump administration’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic and calling on its readers to vote out the president out, writing, *"They have taken a crisis and turned it into a tragedy."*

*Crucial Quote*

"The United States came into this crisis with enormous advantages," the editorial reads. "Along with tremendous manufacturing capacity, we have a biomedical research system that is the envy of the world. We have enormous expertise in public health, health policy, and basic biology and have consistently been able to turn that expertise into new therapies and preventive measures. And much of that national expertise resides in government institutions*. Yet our leaders have largely chosen to ignore and even denigrate experts."*

*Key Facts*

"Anyone else who recklessly squandered lives and money in this way would be suffering legal consequences," the editorial reads, adding that the upcoming November elections "gives us power to render judgment."
* 
While not directly endorsing a candidate for president or a political party, the medical journal calls "our current political leaders. . "dangerously incompetent" and that, "We should not abet them and enable the deaths of thousands more Americans by allowing them to keep their jobs."*

The editorial says the U.S. has "consistently behaved poorly" compared to countries starting with specific disadvantages like Japan, South Korea and Vietnam, with the U.S. accounting for 21% of the world's confirmed coronavirus cases and 20% of global deaths.

The journal cites oft-mentioned failings by the federal government, from the lack of preparation in the run up to the national emergency, to the subsequent shortages of testing and personal protective equipment, to the inconsistent quarantine measures that were lifted too early, to the politicization of face masks, and an abandonment of guidance and assistance to state governors.

The White House is also criticized for undermining the efforts of federal agencies like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration, saying the administration "has turned to uninformed 'opinion leaders' and charlatans."

According to CNN, there have been just four editorials signed by all of the journal’s editors since its founding in 1812 — the others were about contraception, standard-of-care research, _Roe v. Wade_ and an obituary for a former editor-in-chief.









						New England Journal Of Medicine Urges Voters To Cast Out Trump Administration
					

"Anyone else who recklessly squandered lives and money in this way would be suffering legal consequences," the editorial reads, adding that the upcoming November elections "gives us power to render judgment."




					www.forbes.com


----------



## SirRumpole

Miss Hale said:


> You really think Biden is preferable?




Yes.

He's spent most of his career in public service as opposed to Trump who has spent his adult life making money for himself.

Trump only cares about Trump.


----------



## basilio

*Trump only cares about Trump.   *Sir Rumpole

Sums it up.  Everything flows from that reality.
It is what it is.


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Indeed Dutchie and his faithful militia will lead the way...
> 
> *Federal officials arrest six for plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer*
> 
> Federal authorities and Michigan Attorney General held a press conference at 1 p.m. on Thursday to discuss the operation and arrests of seven other men connected to a Michigan militia group, Wolverine Watchmen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6 men arrested in plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer
> 
> 
> Federal officials are charging six men with plotting to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox2detroit.com




Most of my militia don't listen to me.


----------



## dutchie

SirRumpole said:


> Yes.
> 
> He's spent most of his career in public service as opposed to Trump who has spent his adult life making money for himself.
> 
> Trump only cares about Trump.



Like Trump has often said, he has done more in 48 months than Biden has done in 48 years, apart from lining the coffers of the Biden family of course.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Democrats never accepted that he won and basically attempted a coup.
> It wasn't right wing destroying the country. The left burnt it down. Media was onside with the Democrats and have printed every lie they could. Great way to match towards a one party country.
> Many people hate Trump off the back of media propaganda. I doubt many here even know the policies.
> 
> Biden is a liar and has been a consistent one over 47 years. Democrats have perpetrated some of the worst crimes of corruption and yet here we are.




I was and am talking Republicans. There is a list a mile long of prominent Republicans stating they will be voting Biden and some have even form organisations with the express aim of voting him out.









						List of Republicans who opposed the Donald Trump 2020 presidential campaign - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



(Even Arnie Schwarzenegger)

I watched Planet America a couple of nights ago and they interviewed one of them ( a former senior party figure) ...at the end of the show if you want to watch, and he showed how they were targeting certain areas and how they planned to make sure that Trump didn't just lose but was wiped out. 

It's not a case of Biden being voted in, its a case of Trump being voted out.


----------



## Miss Hale

SirRumpole said:


> Yes.
> 
> He's spent most of his career in public service as opposed to Trump who has spent his adult life making money for himself.
> 
> Trump only cares about Trump.




Um, are you joking? Trump is a business man, knows a bit about how to run things like an economy for example. Biden has spent his entire life sponging off the American tax payer and doing absolutely nothing. People have had enough of political apparatchiks trying to run things, they want real people in public office.  Plus Biden has dementia, surely you have noticed this.


----------



## satanoperca

Knobby22 said:


> It's not a case of Biden being voted in, its a case of Trump being voted out.




People don't vote politicians in, they vote for politicians not to get in.

Same as last time, Donald did not get voting in, rather the Hill got voted out.


----------



## SirRumpole

Miss Hale said:


> Um, are you joking? Trump is a business man, knows a bit about how to run things like an economy for example. Biden has spent his entire life sponging off the American tax payer and doing absolutely nothing. People have had enough of political apparatchiks trying to run things, they want real people in public office.  Plus Biden has dementia, surely you have noticed this.




Donald is not up to the job.

The US has suffered a high covid death rate plus a giant gdp collapse under him.

He's nearly bankrupt and soon the USA will be too if he stays in. So much for knowing how to run an economy, he can't even run his own businesses.

The Dems should be pushing how he's run his companies into the ground and could be a national security threat due to his debts..









						Ethics experts see national security concern in Trump's debt
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Revelations that President Donald Trump is personally liable for more than $400 million in debt are casting a shadow that ethics experts say raises national security concerns he could be manipulated to sway U...




					apnews.com


----------



## macca

Miss Hale said:


> Surprised to see so much anti-Trump feeling on this form. You really think Biden is preferable?
> 
> People thinking Trump has no support. Seen his rallies? Seen the people lining the streets when he visits their town? See the people outside Walter Reed when he was sick?  He has masses of support, more than 2016 I believe. The mainstream media is not reflecting reality.




just like last election............


----------



## satanoperca

Miss Hale said:


> Um, are you joking? Trump is a business man, knows a bit about how to run things like an economy for example. Biden has spent his entire life sponging off the American tax payer and doing absolutely nothing. People have had enough of political apparatchiks trying to run things, they want real people in public office.  Plus Biden has dementia, surely you have noticed this.



Ever heard the term, shooting fish in a barrel, really.

"Biden has spent his entire life sponging off the American tax payer" Really, at least he has paid some taxes, Chump cannot even release his after four years

" people in public office" What makes Chump real, because he lies and cheats.

"Trump is a business man", please, just because I tell you my dick is huge, doesn't mean it is. If he exposed/released his finances then we could discuss this on another level.

A sucker is born everyday, not saying Biden is perfect or even close to it, but compared to Trump, there is no comparison.


----------



## satanoperca

His latest interview:
"Mr Trump spent a fair bit of time talking about his “Obamagate” conspiracy theory, which revolves around his belief that Barack Obama illegally directed US intelligence agencies to “spy” on his 2016 election campaign.

The President said Mr Obama, Mr Biden and Hillary Clinton should all be charged with crimes, and put pressure on Attorney-General Bill Barr to follow through."

Stop the bull**** Chump, you have had 4 years to do something about, he really is a man with small hands and a small pen---s.


----------



## moXJO

SirRumpole said:


> Yes.
> 
> He's spent most of his career in public service as opposed to Trump who has spent his adult life making money for himself.
> 
> Trump only cares about Trump.



Do you really think Biden would have the money he has now on a Senate wage?

Take a good look at what everyone was complaining about. Same with the clintons, bushes, basically every politician ever. I think Sanders has benefited the least. But he still was in the millions.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> His latest interview:
> "Mr Trump spent a fair bit of time talking about his “Obamagate” conspiracy theory, which revolves around his belief that Barack Obama illegally directed US intelligence agencies to “spy” on his 2016 election campaign.
> 
> The President said Mr Obama, Mr Biden and Hillary Clinton should all be charged with crimes, and put pressure on Attorney-General Bill Barr to follow through."
> 
> Stop the bull**** Chump, you have had 4 years to do something about, he really is a man with small hands and a small pen---s.




Conspiracy theories are based on things that didn't happen. Trump was illegally put under surveillance. Hence the investigations and subsequent findings.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> I was and am talking Republicans. There is a list a mile long of prominent Republicans stating they will be voting Biden and some have even form organisations with the express aim of voting him out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of Republicans who opposed the Donald Trump 2020 presidential campaign - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Even Arnie Schwarzenegger)
> 
> I watched Planet America a couple of nights ago and they interviewed one of them ( a former senior party figure) ...at the end of the show if you want to watch, and he showed how they were targeting certain areas and how they planned to make sure that Trump didn't just lose but was wiped out.
> 
> It's not a case of Biden being voted in, its a case of Trump being voted out.




Unfortunately you can't get similar wiki results for Democrats  for Trump due to anti Trump sentiment. Surprise surprise.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...have-endorsed-trumps-reelection/#47000d635de6


The reason they may support one side or the other is due to being in swing states. 

Or jump on the bandwagon and enjoy likes for hating him beforeyour book deal. Either way having a strong stance on Trump moves the needle and fills the pockets.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Conspiracy theories are based on things that didn't happen. Trump was illegally put under surveillance. Hence the investigations and subsequent findings.



Are you a pollie, ask a question, divert.

I seem to ask you the same question, you divert, gets a bit boring.

Did Chump state that Hillary was corrupt and should be prosecuted? YES/NO.

Given I know the answer, why the f---k has he taken 4 years to do something, why he is a Chump, full of sh---t.


----------



## satanoperca

" Hence the investigations and subsequent findings. " What findings, has Obama or the Hill been charged, they might be corrupt, but no more corrupt than Mr Chump.


----------



## Miss Hale

SirRumpole said:


> Donald is not up to the job.
> 
> The US has suffered a high covid death rate plus a giant gdp collapse under him.
> 
> He's nearly bankrupt and soon the USA will be too if he stays in. So much for knowing how to run an economy, he can't even run his own businesses.
> 
> The Dems should be pushing how he's run his companies into the ground and could be a national security threat due to his debts..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethics experts see national security concern in Trump's debt
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Revelations that President Donald Trump is personally liable for more than $400 million in debt are casting a shadow that ethics experts say raises national security concerns he could be manipulated to sway U...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com




Trump had the economy going great guns until this virus appeared out of nowhere, you can't blame him for that. The death rate is not his fault either, he did everything he possibly could (ventilators, PPE, stimulus etc.). Blame the Democrat governors for the death rate, it's their states where most of the deaths occurred.

Yeah, he's lost personal wealth since becoming POTUS, unlike he predecessors who all became wealthy by being President. I know what I prefer.


----------



## bellenuit

*How the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor unravelled*

*








						How the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor unravelled
					

An FBI affidavit exposes the disturbing details of a rightwing group’s months-long effort targeting Gretchen Whitmer




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


----------



## satanoperca

Miss Hale said:


> Trump had the economy going great guns until this virus appeared out of nowhere, you can't blame him for that. The death rate is not his fault either, he did everything he possibly could (ventilators, PPE, stimulus etc.). Blame the Democrat governors for the death rate, it's their states where most of the deaths occurred.
> 
> Yeah, he's lost personal wealth since becoming POTUS, unlike he predecessors who all became wealthy by being President. I know what I prefer.



"Trump had the economy going great guns" sounds like you have some good cocaine. 
"Blame the Democrat governors for the death rate, it's their states where most of the deaths occurred." You are as simply minded as he, blame, blame, blame.
Provide evidence to your statement "Yeah, he's lost personal wealth since becoming POTUS".


----------



## moXJO

bellenuit said:


> *How the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor unravelled*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor unravelled
> 
> 
> An FBI affidavit exposes the disturbing details of a rightwing group’s months-long effort targeting Gretchen Whitmer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *




The guy was an anti Trump nut job.
You guys are all on a list by the way.


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> "Lies, damned lies and statistics" Mark Twain.
> I'm sure the families of the 210,000 people who have so far died from the COVID virus would not give a flying xuck for attempts to bury this disaster in creative accounting. Obviously that is why The Lincoln Project highlighted the lonely, individual death of each person.
> 
> But if one was interested in stats then perhaps we could compare  the current *(not final ..*) US COVID death toll of 210,000  to
> 
> Korean War..........................36,500
> Vietnam War........................ 58,200
> Afgan War...............................2,200
> Iraq War................................ 4,500
> Gulf War ...................................294
> 
> WW1....................................116,500
> WW2..................................405,400
> 
> It is also worth pointing out that the Vietnam War ran for at least 10 years, Iraq war8 years, Afgan war  19 years, WW2 5 years and the COVID death toll is only  9 months old and still growing strongly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



210,000 have died in the U.S from covid, 655,000 die from heart desease in the U.S every year, they havent shut down Maccas.
I guess obesity is hard to blame Trump for and doesnt have the wow factor.


----------



## DB008

​


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> 210,000 have died in the U.S from covid, 655,000 die from heart desease in the U.S every year, they havent shut down Maccas.
> I guess obesity is hard to blame Trump for and doesnt have the wow factor.




Not quite the same COVID takes 10 days to three or more weeks to kill you heart disease 30 to 70 years, for the most medically tech-ed up country with the best leading researchers and leading medical knowledge on infectious deceases to have the highest death rate per capita then clearly some thing is wrong.

Trumps behaviour explains most of the problem particularly when you compare to the Australian Federal Government chalk and cheese..


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> ​





Wow. To much truth for half the posters in here


----------



## SirRumpole

IFocus said:


> Not quite the same COVID takes 10 days to three or more weeks to kill you heart disease 30 to 70 years, for the most medically tech-ed up country with the best leading researchers and leading medical knowledge on infectious deceases to have the highest death rate per capita then clearly some thing is wrong.
> 
> Trumps behaviour explains most of the problem particularly when you compare to the Australian Federal Government chalk and cheese..




To be fair, the logistics are a lot different.

USA 330 million pop and 50 states vs Australia 25 million and 6 states.

Not withstanding that, Trumps disdain for medical experts and what is going on around him is staggering.  He could have done a lot more , like listening to Faucci for one .


----------



## Knobby22

SirRumpole said:


> To be fair, the logistics are a lot different.
> 
> USA 330 million pop and 50 states vs Australia 25 million and 6 states.
> 
> Not withstanding that, Trumps disdain for medical experts and what is going on around him is staggering.  He could have done a lot more , like listening to Faucci for one .




The naked truth is true Conservatives don't want Trump.

Now that he is looking like losing badly the hard nosed Wall Street operatives are causing the USA stock market to rally strongly. I think it will continue to rally if Biden maintains the lead. The real fear is that it is close and Trump instigates a constitutional crisis.

I heard one Republican former advisor say he doesn't want Trump to die from Covid as Trumpism would remain in some form. He wants Trump to get smashed so the stain of Trump can be removed from the party and they can be decent Conservatives again.

A steady hand under Biden, a decent stimulus package and a stop to the demonstrations as relief sets in will mean that the country can start growing again. Hence the stock market rise.

History shows the stock market does better on average under Democrat leadership and I think the next 4 years will be no different.


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> to have the highest death rate per capita then clearly some thing is wrong.




The are the 10th highest per capita, but nevertheless an appalling outcome. They are highest in absolute terms.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Not quite the same COVID takes 10 days to three or more weeks to kill you heart disease 30 to 70 years, for the most medically tech-ed up country with the best leading researchers and leading medical knowledge on infectious deceases to have the highest death rate per capita then clearly some thing is wrong.
> 
> Trumps behaviour explains most of the problem particularly when you compare to the Australian Federal Government chalk and cheese..



I don't disagree with you, but there has to be an end game, quoting what is in reality quite low numbers and sensationalising them, is losing its shine IMO
Also I'm a great believer in not getting the virus and W.A, Tasmania and the South pacific islands etc I feel are doing the right thing, but where it is running rampant Europe the U.S etc there has to be a degree of acceptance IMO.
The chances of halting it is obviously well past, so in reality the time for shock and awe is well past, constantly bashing Daniel Andrews and Trump is becoming counter productive IMO.
Everyone is getting numb to the constant barrage, the media could achieve a lot more by being more passive and highlighting the success stories, which would put a lot more pressure on those that aren't performing.
At the end of the day most of the responsibility is down to the individual, constantly putting the focus on the leaders, makes it appear they have some form of magic wand but aren't prepared to use it.
The pressure should be brought to bear on peoples behaviour IMO, it is the only way that transmission will reduce and hopefully a vaccine is found.
210,000 deaths linked loosely to the virus, from a population of 350,000,000, probably isn't the best way to describe the severity of the issue IMO.
Again just my opinion, but many are loosing everything, to them it needs to be explained in a more realistic format.
Comparing Australia with the U.S is really comparing apples and oranges, as Rumpy has stated.
Completely shutting down the U.S just wouldn't happen, the States all work differently, the social upheaval would be far worse than the virus IMO.


----------



## Knobby22

Great cartoon


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Not quite the same COVID takes 10 days to three or more weeks to kill you heart disease 30 to 70 years, for the most medically tech-ed up country with the best leading researchers and leading medical knowledge on infectious deceases to have the highest death rate per capita then clearly some thing is wrong.
> 
> Trumps behaviour explains most of the problem particularly when you compare to the Australian Federal Government chalk and cheese..



That's another bit of irony isn't it everyone is outraged at trump lack of concern for the virus and no one says anytrhing to parents with obese children.


----------



## satanoperca

sptrawler said:


> That's another bit of irony isn't it everyone is outraged at trump lack of concern for the virus and no one says anytrhing to parents with obese children.




Which came first, the obese parents or the obese children? Chicken and egg stuff.

You have much greater control over not being obese than you have over catching a virus.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> That's another bit of irony isn't it everyone is outraged at trump lack of concern for the virus and no one says anytrhing to parents with obese children.



Its not the lack of concern for the virus, it's the lack of concern for the people!

Morrison and Adern (who it looked likes won the election), your Premier and most of the other Premiers are doing well because it appears they give a damn.

I was reading in the AFR that it is the older Republican voters that have switched. Florida is looking grim for Trump.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Its not the lack of concern for the virus, it's the lack of concern for the people!
> 
> Morrison and Adern (who it looked likes won the election), your Premier and most of the other Premiers are doing well because it appears they give a damn.
> 
> I was reading in the AFR that it is the older Republican voters that have switched. Florida is looking grim for Trump.



Yet no one jumps on them for not doing anything about heart desease, which in reality will no doubt kill many more.
Parents cant smack their children, but they can make them super obese, I guess it is just what the media wants to highlight.
Getting back to Trump, he isnt forcing people to social distance, use safe hygene and stay indoors and he is hammered.
Yet if he said parents who have obese children, would have to attend compulsory nutrition courses, he would be hammered for infringing personal rights, yet there is every likelyhood the child will suffer more from obesity than the virus.
So where is the concern.


----------



## basilio

I'm a bit bewildered  (nah.) by people trying to put some lipstick on Donald Trump.

This story outlines the big issues of the Trump administration and explores  where he intends to take the US f over the  next few months


*Trump said he could kill and win – Covid and cheating may prove it*
Robert Reich







He said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose votes. Now 210,000 are dead and he’s scheming to keep power




‘Trump’s Fifth Avenue principle has kept him in power for almost four years of death and mayhem that would have doomed the presidencies of anyone else.’ Photograph: The White House/Reuters
Sun 11 Oct 2020 01.00 EDT

“I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters,” Donald Trump boasted in 2016. He thought his almost unlimited bravado, bombast and dominance of any situation allowed him to get away with figurative murder.

Since then, the president’s Fifth Avenue principle has been repeatedly tested – most notably by the Access Hollywood tape, Robert Mueller’s findings that Trump obstructed justice and his campaign aides cooperated with Russia, overt racism, quid pro quo to the president of Ukraine, and impeachment – yet some 40% of American voters have stuck by him notwithstanding.

That’s all he’s needed. And for reasons I’ll explain in a moment, he’s counting on them to preserve his presidency after 3 November.

They’ve stuck by him even as more than 210,000 Americans have died from Covid-19, one of the world’s highest death rates – due in part to Trump initially downplaying its dangers, then refusing responsibility for it, promoting quack remedies for it, muzzling government experts on it, pushing states to reopen despite it, and discouraging people from wearing masks.


> *Trump is in effect standing in the middle of Fifth Avenue, killing off tens of thousands of Americans*



They’ve stuck by him even after he turned the White House into a hotspot for the virus, even after he caught it himself, and even after asserting just days ago that it’s less lethal than the flu.* A recent nonpartisan study concluded that Trump’s blatant disinformation has been the largest driver of Covid misinformation in the world.*

They’ve stuck by him even as more than 11 million Americans have lost their jobs, 40 million risk eviction from their homes, 14 million have lost health insurance, and one out of seven small businesses has permanently shuttered. Yet Trump cut off talks on economic relief (he’s now backtracking a bit), and is pushing the supreme court to repeal the Affordable Care Act, which would cause 20 million more to lose health insurance.

Trump is in effect standing in the middle of Fifth Avenue, killing off tens of thousands of Americans. Yet here we are, just a few weeks before the election, and his supporters haven’t budged. The latest polls show him with 40% to 43% of voters, while Joe Biden has a bare majority.

But the most egregious test of Trump’s Fifth Avenue principle is still to come. He is counting on his supporters to keep him in power even after he loses the popular vote.









						Trump said he could kill and win – Covid and cheating may prove it | Robert Reich
					

He said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose votes. Now 210,000 are dead and he’s scheming to keep power




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Yet no one jumps on them for not doing anything about heart desease, which in reality will no doubt kill many more.
> Parents cant smack their children, but they can make them super obese, I guess it is just what the media wants to highlight.
> Getting back to Trump, he isnt forcing people to social distance, use safe hygene and stay indoors and he is hammered.
> Yet if he said parents who have obese children, would have to attend compulsory nutrition courses, he would be hammered for infringing personal rights, yet there is every likelyhood the child will suffer more from obesity than the virus.
> So where is the concern.




All he had to do was say the virus was serious and seek advice from the health experts. Coordinate a response.

Instead he initially said it was not serious even though it was. Slowing the response and not letting people protect themselves.

He attacked state governments that did do something.

He was slow to start testing, he is reducing testing now in a bid to get numbers down.

The USA is now no. 1 country of deaths  in the world.

Only 10 % of the population has caught it, 90% to go.

He is not acting in the interests of the ordinary people. Hence why so many Republicans are temporarily voting Biden.

To be fair he is doing stuff with healthcare though. Refer link.
Now he has control of the High Court he can achieve a lot.









						Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court to Strike Down Affordable Care Act (Published 2020)
					

If successful, the move would permanently end the health insurance program popularly known as Obamacare and wipe out coverage for as many as 23 million Americans.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Yet no one jumps on them for not doing anything about heart desease, which in reality will no doubt kill many more.




I have heart disease (two stents to prove it)   in my case its hereditary (won lotto there).

I would likely be classed as under weight, almost vegie diet, fitness heart rate of high 40's low 50's normal blood pressure, doesn't matter if you are predisposed you get it. 

Its now completely treatable such is the technology what's missing is an easy screening method (although its getting close) there has actually been massive work / research and  improvement in the area.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> I have heart disease (two stents to prove it)   in my case its hereditary (won lotto there).
> 
> I would likely be classed as under weight, almost vegie diet, fitness heart rate of high 40's low 50's normal blood pressure, doesn't matter if you are predisposed you get it.
> 
> Its now completely treatable such is the technology what's missing is an easy screening method (although its getting close) there has actually been massive work / research and  improvement in the area.



So I guess morbidly obese children isn't an issue then, that's good.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> All he had to do was say the virus was serious and seek advice from the health experts. Coordinate a response.
> 
> Instead he initially said it was not serious even though it was. Slowing the response and not letting people protect themselves.
> 
> He attacked state governments that did do something.
> 
> He was slow to start testing, he is reducing testing now in a bid to get numbers down.
> 
> The USA is now no. 1 country of deaths  in the world.
> 
> Only 10 % of the population has caught it, 90% to go.
> 
> He is not acting in the interests of the ordinary people. Hence why so many Republicans are temporarily voting Biden.
> 
> To be fair he is doing stuff with healthcare though. Refer link.
> Now he has control of the High Court he can achieve a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court to Strike Down Affordable Care Act (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> If successful, the move would permanently end the health insurance program popularly known as Obamacare and wipe out coverage for as many as 23 million Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Ordinary people should be acting in their own interest, they know the information it is up to them how they respond to it.
Trump isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, to blame him for people listening to him, is laying the problem at the wrong feet.
People being responsible for their own actions appears to be a fading trait, it won't be long before people won't take responsibility for anything. To avoid the virus personal hygiene and social distancing appears to work.
If one Muppet can overturn people's common sense, well god bless them, they are going to struggle through life.
Just my opinion.
In reality all that needed to be done was common sense and personal hygiene, that seems to be beyond people, many were told not to go to a rally but did, so much for just telling people.


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> All he had to do was say the virus was serious and seek advice from the health experts. Coordinate a response.
> 
> Instead he initially said it was not serious even though it was. Slowing the response and not letting people protect themselves.
> 
> He attacked state governments that did do something.
> 
> He was slow to start testing, he is reducing testing now in a bid to get numbers down.
> 
> The USA is now no. 1 country of deaths  in the world.
> 
> Only 10 % of the population has caught it, 90% to go.
> 
> He is not acting in the interests of the ordinary people. Hence why so many Republicans are temporarily voting Biden.
> 
> To be fair he is doing stuff with healthcare though. Refer link.
> Now he has control of the High Court he can achieve a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court to Strike Down Affordable Care Act (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> If successful, the move would permanently end the health insurance program popularly known as Obamacare and wipe out coverage for as many as 23 million Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



This seems like a revised version of history.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> This seems like a revised version of history.



Which bit. Do you want links?


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Ordinary people should be acting in their own interest, they know the information it is up to them how they respond to it.
> Trump isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, to blame him for people listening to him, is laying the problem at the wrong feet.
> People being responsible for their own actions appears to be a fading trait, it won't be long before people won't take responsibility for anything. To avoid the virus personal hygiene and social distancing appears to work.
> If one Muppet can overturn people's common sense, well god bless them, they are going to struggle through life.
> Just my opinion.
> In reality all that needed to be done was common sense and personal hygiene, that seems to be beyond people, many were told not to go to a rally but did, so much for just telling people.



He is the President. Simple as that.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> So I guess morbidly obese children isn't an issue then, that's good.





Of course its a problem diabetes, heart disease and so on but you don't catch it from some one else, entirely self inflicted surely you are not for the nanny state running peoples lives?

I would happily like to see sugar / salt / saturated fats loaded food banned......but that would be nanny state interference, left wing control etc. 
Hell next thing we would have renewable power, climate change policy, Federal ICAC, full time work for all, penalty rates, fair working conditions, public housing, less marketing for politics, pigs flying overhead


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Of course its a problem diabetes, heart disease and so on but you don't catch it from some one else, entirely self inflicted surely you are not for the nanny state running peoples lives?
> 
> I would happily like to see sugar / salt / saturated fats loaded food banned......but that would be nanny state interference, left wing control etc.
> Hell next thing we would have renewable power, climate change policy, Federal ICAC, full time work for all, penalty rates, fair working conditions, public housing, less marketing for politics, pigs flying overhead



Apparently everyone does want a nanny state, they are cheering on politicians who enforce a nanny state.
70% of W.A people want a closed border, even with Tassie, which has no cases. Me included, butdoes that make us and McGowan right, or does it just fit with our personal belief?
Also generally children do catch diabetes, heart desease from someone else, usually their parents life choices.
Much like those who choose to ignore covid warnings, it is just not PC to mention certain failings of people.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> He is the President. Simple as that.











						'Madness': Unbelievable scenes at department store in Covid-ridden city
					

People have called the scenes filmed at the department store 'crazy' and 'insane'.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> 'Madness': Unbelievable scenes at department store in Covid-ridden city
> 
> 
> People have called the scenes filmed at the department store 'crazy' and 'insane'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> au.news.yahoo.com





That's nuts see how many older people were in there?

Brasso's can be out there but have had the pleasure meeting many genuine souls over the years.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> That's nuts see how many older people were in there?
> 
> Brasso's can be out there but have had the pleasure meeting many genuine souls over the years.



I don't believe the people in that shop aren't aware of the issues with covid, they either don't care, or they are desperate.
If they don't care no one can change that, other than implementing draconian measures, like we did.
If they are desperate, well that is sad.
The difference is we are very lucky that we are an extremely rich country, with a very small population and we can afford to throw money at people so they don't suffer even if they don't work or lose their job.
Not many countries are as fortunate, that is why I don't get into criticising how other countries handle the issue, or compare it with the way we have handled it, not many could afford it.


----------



## basilio

It has gone largely unnoticed to date but the Trump administration  has been stepping up flights of B52 bombers armed with nuclear cruise missiles around the Russian and Chinese borders.

Take away message?

*Playing with Fire*
_
And where will all this end? As the U.S. sends nuclear-capable bombers on increasingly provocative flights ever closer to Russian and Chinese territory, the danger of an accident or mishap is bound to grow. Sooner or later, a fighter plane from one of those countries is going to get too close to an American bomber and a deadly incident will occur. And what will happen if a nuclear bomber, armed with advanced missiles and electronics (even conceivably nuclear weapons), is in some fashion downed? Count on one thing: in Donald Trump’s America the calls for devastating retaliation will be intense and a major conflagration cannot be ruled out.

Bluntly put, dispatching nuclear-capable B-52s on simulated bombing runs against Chinese and Russian military installations is simply nuts. Yes, it must scare the bejesus out of Chinese and Russian officials, but it will also prompt them to distrust any future peaceful overtures from American diplomats while further bolstering their own military power and defenses. Eventually, we will all find ourselves in an ever more dangerous and insecure world with the risk of Armageddon lurking just around the corner._


*Tomgram: Michael Klare, A Game of Nuclear Chicken with Russia and China    * 
  Posted by Michael Klare at 4:08pm, October 11, 2020.
Follow TomDispatch on Twitter @TomDispatch.                  




__





						Talking Tough and Carrying a Radioactive Stick
					

On August 21st, six nuclear-capable B-52H Stratofortress bombers, representing approximately one-seventh of the war-ready U.S. B-52H bomber fleet, flew from their home base in North Dakota to Fairford Air Base in England for several weeks




					www.tomdispatch.com


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> It has gone largely unnoticed to date but the Trump administration  has been stepping up flights of B52 bombers armed with nuclear cruise missiles around the Russian and Chinese borders.
> 
> Take away message?
> 
> *Playing with Fire*
> 
> _And where will all this end? As the U.S. sends nuclear-capable bombers on increasingly provocative flights ever closer to Russian and Chinese territory, the danger of an accident or mishap is bound to grow. Sooner or later, a fighter plane from one of those countries is going to get too close to an American bomber and a deadly incident will occur. And what will happen if a nuclear bomber, armed with advanced missiles and electronics (even conceivably nuclear weapons), is in some fashion downed? Count on one thing: in Donald Trump’s America the calls for devastating retaliation will be intense and a major conflagration cannot be ruled out.
> 
> Bluntly put, dispatching nuclear-capable B-52s on simulated bombing runs against Chinese and Russian military installations is simply nuts. Yes, it must scare the bejesus out of Chinese and Russian officials, but it will also prompt them to distrust any future peaceful overtures from American diplomats while further bolstering their own military power and defenses. Eventually, we will all find ourselves in an ever more dangerous and insecure world with the risk of Armageddon lurking just around the corner._
> 
> 
> *Tomgram: Michael Klare, A Game of Nuclear Chicken with Russia and China    *
> Posted by Michael Klare at 4:08pm, October 11, 2020.
> Follow TomDispatch on Twitter @TomDispatch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Talking Tough and Carrying a Radioactive Stick
> 
> 
> On August 21st, six nuclear-capable B-52H Stratofortress bombers, representing approximately one-seventh of the war-ready U.S. B-52H bomber fleet, flew from their home base in North Dakota to Fairford Air Base in England for several weeks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tomdispatch.com



They were nuke armed?

They have been flying these missions for years to test capabilities. Its also a deterrent to China and Russia and a moral booster to allied countries.

They regularly have war games with Japan. China and Russia have done the same.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-f-22s-intercept-russian-bombers-near-alaska/

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp...s/russian-bombers-alaska-intercept/index.html

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/us/pentagon-russian-bombers/index.html

All the way back to 2014.
Stop printing fear monger rubbish.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> They were nuke armed?
> 
> They have been flying these missions for years to test capabilities. Its also a deterrent to China and Russia and a moral booster to allied countries.
> 
> They regularly have war games with Japan. China and Russia have done the same.
> 
> https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-f-22s-intercept-russian-bombers-near-alaska/
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp...s/russian-bombers-alaska-intercept/index.html
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/us/pentagon-russian-bombers/index.html
> 
> All the way back to 2014.
> Stop printing fear monger rubbish.




*Mo either you didn't actually read the article or couldn't understand it or just refuse to believe what it says*.

These are not normal missions in any way shape or form.

If anyone else is interested in learning more about current US  nuclear military strategy (with Trump as President..) read the article yourself and make up your own mind.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> *Mo either you didn't actually read the article or couldn't understand it or just refuse to believe what it says*.
> 
> These are not normal missions in any way shape or form.
> 
> If anyone else is interested in learning more about current US  nuclear military strategy (with Trump as President..) read the article yourself and make up your own mind.



I read the airforce times months ago on this mission. Russia and of late China have both been doing this for a long time.

Do you think war games are to see how fast we can "hug a threat"?

India and China are battling over borders. China is pushing into south China seas and currently trying to land grab both Taiwan and the islands off Japan. Also trying Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Korean waters.
So yes, bombers will be testing enemy systems.

What do you think China and Russia are doing?
Russia invaded Ukraine already.

And the planes were not carrying nukes. They apparently had "nuclear carrying" capabilities.
That's not what they generally carry though, generally they carry J series bombs.

They are also pretty useless and would not be the delivery mechanism for nukes. If anything they were probably testing to see if they are obsolete.

Russia has hypersonic nukes, China in development. And US was lagging behind. US was using smaller nukes on subs from memory.

The article is fear mongering bs.


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> Stop printing fear monger rubbish.




Sole purpose is to make Trump look bad.  TDS strikes (not nuclear) again.


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> The article is fear mongering bs.




Indeed and so you say about many things Mo.

That doesn't make it true.
It is just your own particular opinion.
And when I see the range of views you express and the sources you use to back them up ...

The analysis  I posted from a credible analyst  is far more detailed than simply training and war games. I still suggest anyone interested  can make up their own mind or look further.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Indeed and so you say about many things Mo.
> 
> That doesn't make it true.
> It is just your own particular opinion.
> And when I see the range of views you express and the sources you use to back them up ...
> 
> The analysis  I posted from a credible analyst  is far more detailed than simply training and war games. I still suggest anyone interested  can make up their own mind or look further.



From someone thinking B-52s are going to be a viable option to dropping nukes?
They lost credibility right there. Honestly this bomber has been around since the 50s. It wouldn't be tasked with nuking, even if it was against NZ.


----------



## moXJO

Here's some more on what they are actually doing. And its generally testing defenses:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...elligence-trap-for-the-russians/#2a59fbf562b9




> American officials objected to the “unnecessary” harassment of their bomber. But the joke was on the Russians. For the B-52 was merely bait in an elaborate, and ongoing, intelligence trap.
> 
> Look closely at the transponders in the air at the time of the Aug. 28 intercept. While the Su-27s were needling the Stratofortress, two four-engine RC-135V/W Rivet Joint electronic-intelligence planes—which the U.S. and U.K. air forces use to surveil enemy air-defenses—were loitering nearby, presumably scooping up all kinds of useful data on Russian sensors and communications.
> 
> Exactly a week later, the Americans and their friends did it again. Today at least one B-52 flew through Ukraine and skirted the edge of the Black Sea just miles from Russian forces on the Crimean Peninsula. Two other B-52s were exercising over Ukraine around the same time, according to U.S. European Command. It’s unclear whether all three flew the same track near Crimea.
> 
> A pair of RC-135V/Ws meanwhile flew over the Black Sea, close enough to Crimea—and to the B-52—to intercept signals from any Russian radars tracking the bomber.
> 
> All this is to say, it’s clear that the United States and its NATO allies aren’t just showing off. The Stratofortress-Rivet Joint missions are helping the alliance to gather strategic intelligence on Moscow’s forces in and around Crimea. In wartime, this information could help planners determine how to suppress or destroy Russian air-defenses in the region.




But sure bas, your article of TDS is really legitimate

In case people don't know why:

The B-52—nicknamed the BUFF—was originally intended to drop nuclear gravity bombs on the Soviet Union. That would already have been suicidal by the end of the 1960s given the rapid improvement of surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles, and would be even more so today.


----------



## dutchie

Trump voters confirm that they are on the right track.

Biden supporters become doubtful.


*Teen climate change activist Greta Thunberg endorses Biden*


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> From someone thinking B-52s are going to be a viable option to dropping nukes?
> They lost credibility right there. Honestly this bomber has been around since the 50s. It wouldn't be tasked with nuking, even if it was against NZ.




You didn't actually read the article did you Mo ?
The B52 were not going to *drop* nukes. The current armament is  nuclear armed cruise missiles

_each of them is capable of carrying eight AGM-86B nuclear-armed, air-launched cruise missiles (ALCMs) in its bomb bay. Those six planes, in other words, could have been carrying 48 city-busting thermonuclear warheads. 






						Arms Control and Proliferation Profile: The United States | Arms Control Association
					






					www.armscontrol.org
				



_


----------



## basilio




----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> You didn't actually read the article did you Mo ?
> The B52 were not going to *drop* nukes. The current armament is  nuclear armed cruise missiles
> 
> _each of them is capable of carrying eight AGM-86B nuclear-armed, air-launched cruise missiles (ALCMs) in its bomb bay. Those six planes, in other words, could have been carrying 48 city-busting thermonuclear warheads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arms Control and Proliferation Profile: The United States | Arms Control Association
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armscontrol.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



They would not be used for that as there are better delivery options. I could  theoretically strap a nuke on a hot-air balloon, not the best delivery system.*The point was that they would not make it through air defenses.*   It was an intelligence gathering exercise as it turned out. They are no longer allowed to carry gravity nukes. And the newer bombers (if they were going to risk it) would be used such as the B-21. Possibly  something smaller in conjunction with the bombers. 

Nukes would be used by subs that may possibly change with the new "arrw" and "hacksaw" program advancement. That's if they get it to work But B-52s won't be nuking anything soon. Its a bunk article.

B-52s are the military parade of the sky. Its a testing and propaganda exercise.
They would not fly into radar if they were nuking either.

Here is more info on the agm nukes that were out of date by 92 by the way:



> *Survivability Against Advanced Air Defenses*
> There are two interrelated survivability issues with the AGM-86B: the survivability of the aircraft launching the missile and the survivability of the missile itself. The B-52H is the only U.S. bomber that can launch the AGM-86B,8 but, as General Selva has explained concerning the B-52H, “… the airframe itself cannot penetrate Russian air defenses—or Chinese air defenses, for that matter—and, as a consequence, must have a standoff weapon that is capable of contributing to its leg of the deterrent.”9 If the AGM-86B is allowed to age out of the force without replacement by the LRSO, the B-52H bomber may effectively lose its role in the U.S. nuclear mission – which could significantly degrade U.S. deterrence capabilities. Speaking on the growing threat to U.S. bombers from potential opponents’ advanced air defenses, General Stephen Wilson, Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force, testified, “Deterrence and demonstrated combat capability remain vital instruments of power, especially as our enemies are committed to denying our attacks from the air. Only 12% of our current bomber fleet is survivable in such an environment.”10 U.S. defense officials cite this figure and others to demonstrate the need for a new penetrating and stealthy bomber – the B-21 – which is expected to reach initial operating capability in the “mid 2020s” and will be able to carry the LRSO.11
> In addition, U.S. defense officials appear to believe there are missions ALCMs can accomplish that penetrating bombers alone cannot; as Robert Scher, then-Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans, and Capabilities explained in 2016, “The current ALCM is designed to launch from a bomber flying outside an adversary’s territory and reach targets inaccessible to even stealth aircraft. Retaining this capability requires that we replace the ALCM during the coming decade, and we are developing the LRSO to do just that.”12
> The second survivability issue of the AGM-86B is its ability to survive modern air defenses once launched from the B-52H. As STRATCOM Commander General Hyten testified before Congress recently, “Intended for Soviet-era threats, the ALCM’s survivability in modern air defense environments is deteriorating.”13 Put another way, General Robin Rand stated, “The ALCM has significant capability gaps that will only worsen through the next decade.”14 This assessment appears supported by the growing trend of advanced air defense networks in states of interest.
> Advances in Russia’s air defenses, for instance, are worth monitoring as they relate to the AGM-86B cruise missile. The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) recently reported: “Russian doctrine places a great deal of emphasis on aerospace defense as a key component in its overall A2/AD [anti-access/area-denial] strategy. Though still in development, Russia’s 21st century integrated air defense system will be designed to integrate future and existing systems around a central command structure that is designed to promote the interaction of all air defense forces and weapons. Capabilities optimized against cruise missiles are key to this defense component, not just those optimized to target aircraft.”15 As the DIA goes on to note, Russian defense officials have examined U.S. military operations abroad since Operation Desert Storm and concluded that once the United States can strike from the air with impunity then the cause is likely lost – thus making the procurement of an advanced air defense system all the more important.16
> China has also learned from previous U.S. air operations and is reportedly pursuing a dualtrack strategy of buying advanced air defense systems from Russia while also producing its own systems domestically.17 As the Department of Defense notes, “The PLAAF [People’s Liberation Army Air Force] possesses one of the largest forces of advanced long-range SAM systems in the world, consisting of a combination of Russian-sourced SA-20 (S-300PMU1/2) battalions and domestically produced CSA-9 battalions. China has contracted with Russia for the S400/Triumf SAM system, as a follow-on to the SA-20 and CSA-9, to improve strategic long-range air defenses; delivery could take place by the end of the decade.”18 The Russian S300 and S-400 systems, according to the U.S. Department of Defense, have an advertised capability to shoot down cruise missiles.19
> In addition, China’s Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) could have implications for U.S. bomber and cruise missile survivability. As the Department of Defense states:
> 
> _China has a robust and redundant IADS architecture over land areas and within 300 nm (556 km) of its coast that relies on an extensive early warning radar network, fighter aircraft, and a variety of SAM systems. China is also placing radars and air defense weapons on outposts in the South China Sea, further extending its IADS. It also employs point defense primarily to defend strategic targets against adversary long-range cruise missiles and airborne strike platforms. China has increasing numbers of advanced long-range SAMs, including its indigenous CSA-9, Russian SA10 (S-300PMU), and SA20 (S-300PMU1/PMU2), all of which have the advertised capability to protect against both aircraft and low-flying cruise missiles.20 _
> 
> These developments appear to signal China’s determination to seriously pursue defense capabilities against cruise missiles.
> It should also be noted that U.S. defense officials do not see the threat from adversary integrated air defenses to bombers and cruise missiles as static, but rather a dynamic and evolving threat that will likely persist into the future. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, for example, envision future scenarios where an adversary quickly takes land near its borders and then extends its air defense network to deny a quick and effective U.S. response – which in turn would allow the adversary to consolidate gains and prepare for further advances.21 Similarly, the National Intelligence Council recently drew attention to the likely proliferation of advanced air defense systems in the near future and the negative potential impacts on U.S. powerprojection capabilities.22 Thus, the current and perhaps future threat environment appear to support U.S. defense officials’ concerns over the AGM-86B’s continued survivability.




https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...n_an_uncertain_future_environment_114221.html

Either way you article was rubbish to scare people to think Trump was hovering his finger over the button. When in actual fact he has pushed harder on the use of sanctions against the leaders of enemy states rather then bombs.


----------



## basilio

The B52  are currently equipped  to launch nuclear armed cruise missiles. They don't have to pierce  foreign borders  to launch these missiles.

This is one of the current elements of the US military capacity. Russia knows this. So does China. So does everyone . That is part of deterrence.

The paper you quoted at length makes it clear that the these weapons systems are  currently operational.  What it then argues is that the Government should upgrade its bombers and missile systems to overcome perceived Russia/China improvements in their air defenses.

The paper I quoted simply pointed out that, in the writers view, recent US military sweeps have been dangerously aggressive and run the risk of an incident that could conceivably spiral out of control. In the context of the current Trump administration  the response to such an incident could be overwhelming and catastrophic.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The B52  are currently equipped  to launch nuclear armed cruise missiles. They don't have to pierce  foreign borders  to launch these missiles.
> 
> This is one of the current elements of the US military capacity. Russia knows this. So does China. So does everyone . That is part of deterrence.
> 
> The paper you quoted at length makes it clear that the these weapons systems are  currently operational.  What it then argues is that the Government should upgrade its bombers and missile systems to overcome perceived Russia/China improvements in their air defenses.
> 
> The paper I quoted simply pointed out that, in the writers view, recent US military sweeps have been dangerously aggressive and run the risk of an incident that could conceivably spiral out of control. In the context of the current Trump administration  the response to such an incident could be overwhelming and catastrophic.



It points out that the nukes were likely to be intercepted along with the B-52. Thus B-52 for nuclear purposes are a bit far fetched at this stage. 

I also pointed out this is a routine event in military circles with links going back over the years. I could probably provide 100 incidents from Russia or China that were hyper aggressive.

Trump has already been tested numerous times. In a few incidents he apparently gave warning so civilians, or workers could evacuate before bombing. He has also been tested on Iran going after military leaders rather than dropping bombs on everyone.
He also attempted peace with NK.
Middle East the US walked out of.

All facets of the article are solely directed at fear not fact.


You directly stated that "These are not normal missions in any way shape or form."

When in fact they have been carried out since the cold war.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> The paper I quoted simply pointed out that, in the writers view, recent US military sweeps have been dangerously aggressive and run the risk of an incident that could conceivably spiral out of control. In the context of the current Trump administration  the response to such an incident could be overwhelming and catastrophic.



China on Indian border.
China on Taiwan.
China on Japan.
China on Philippines.
China on Vietnam.
China on Mongolia.
China on Indonesia.
China on Korea.
China on South China Sea 

All with incursions into others territory, violent conflicts resulting in death and land grabbing.

But Please school me that the greatest threat is currently Trump.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> It points out that the nukes were likely to be intercepted along with the B-52. Thus B-52 for nuclear purposes are a bit far fetched at this stage.



There is no way the aircraft would be carrying nuclear devices during peace times, firstly if the aircraft crashed it would be an international incident.
Secondly if the aircraft was forced down due to technical issue, it would be impounded and a foreign country would have access to the technology being used and if it was a rouge nation could very well on sell the nuclear devices.
How many thermonuclear cruise missiles were used in the middle East during the war? So why the hell would they carry them around when there isn't a major conflict? It just highlights how gullible people are IMO.
Way too many people believing everything they read, I applaud you perseverance in debating the issues, whether it causes people to reflect on their reasoning is doubtfull.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> China on Indian border.
> China on Taiwan.
> China on Japan.
> China on Philippines.
> China on Vietnam.
> China on Mongolia.
> China on Indonesia.
> China on Korea.
> China on South China Sea
> 
> All with incursions into others territory, violent conflicts resulting in death and land grabbing.
> 
> But Please school me that the greatest threat is currently Trump.





Trump has been the greatest threat to the western world (particularly Australia) over the last 80 years as he has broken / trashed many western alliances all the while China continues to build while encourages the divisions both in the alliances and domestically Rome burns while Trump praises himself.

Trump BTW has done the same internally in the US there is no longer a team America.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Trump has been the greatest threat to the western world (particularly Australia) over the last 80 years as he has broken / trashed many western alliances all the while China continues to build while encourages the divisions both in the alliances and domestically Rome burns while Trump praises himself.
> 
> Trump BTW has done the same internally in the US there is no longer a team America.




How much were UN countries spending on defence before Trump?

He told them to pull their weight. He also boosted military spending after it was trashed after Obama.  Those "alliances" you mentioned were coasting on the hope that US would keep wasting defense dollars protecting them with little in return.

Russia didn't walk into the Ukraine on Trumps watch either. 

Trump has been in for less then 4 years, yet you are blaming him for problems decades in the making. 

Yep


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> How much were UN countries spending on defence before Trump?
> 
> He told them to pull their weight. He also boosted military spending after it was trashed after Obama.  Those "alliances" you mentioned were coasting on the hope that US would keep wasting defense dollars protecting them with little in return.
> 
> Russia didn't walk into the Ukraine on Trumps watch either.
> 
> Trump has been in for less then 4 years, yet you are blaming him for problems decades in the making.
> 
> Yep




But he continues to lie.


----------



## IFocus

moXJO said:


> How much were UN countries spending on defence before Trump?
> 
> He told them to pull their weight. He also boosted military spending after it was trashed after Obama.  Those "alliances" you mentioned were coasting on the hope that US would keep wasting defense dollars protecting them with little in return.
> 
> Russia didn't walk into the Ukraine on Trumps watch either.
> 
> Trump has been in for less then 4 years, yet you are blaming him for problems decades in the making.
> 
> Yep





US bases and military spending were for the US to project its power both economically and military exactly what China is about now.

US is causing distrust while China is expanding 

Trump has broken that relationship this is extremely dangerous for Australia.

Biden will seek to repair alliances  but might be to late.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> US bases and military spending were for the US to project its power both economically and military exactly what China is about now.
> 
> US is causing distrust while China is expanding
> 
> Trump has broken that relationship this is extremely dangerous for Australia.
> 
> Biden will seek to repair alliances  but might be to late.



China is hated amongst many of the places it used debt traps. Trump was the one that successfully took China to task as they were taking advantage across the world.

Before that everyone was lapping up the trade. And losing patents and tech. Australia needed the wake up call. We were selling out the farm.
Fostering relationships with those around us is more important then the US.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> China is hated amongst many of the places it used debt traps. Trump was the one that successfully took China to task as they were taking advantage across the world.
> 
> Before that everyone was lapping up the trade. And losing patents and tech. Australia needed the wake up call. We were selling out the farm.
> Fostering relationships with those around us is more important then the US.



Can you elaborate and please no political speak, if you cannot answer the question, then don't, move to the next one.

"China is hated amongst many of the places it used debt traps." Who, and the USA have not implemented the same in the past, world war 11 an d the British Empire

"Australia needed the wake up call." Correction, Australians need the wake up call. Australia is a place not a collective of people who can force change.

"We were selling out the farm." Not we, but rather our political elite who are elected by people who choose not to take the time to work out how they are being sold out.

We sold the farm a long time ago.

"Fostering relationships with those around us is more important then the US." What nations are they?


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Can you elaborate and please no political speak, if you cannot answer the question, then don't, move to the next one.
> 
> 1. "China is hated amongst many of the places it used debt traps." Who, and the USA have not implemented the same in the past, world war 11 an d the British Empire
> 
> 2. "Australia needed the wake up call." Correction, Australians need the wake up call. Australia is a place not a collective of people who can force change.
> 
> 3. "We were selling out the farm." Not we, but rather our political elite who are elected by people who choose not to take the time to work out how they are being sold out.
> 
> We sold the farm a long time ago.
> 
> 4. "Fostering relationships with those around us is more important then the US." What nations are they?





I'll keep it short:

1. Sri Lanka 
The rest of your question was a history lesson. 
Debt of at least 20% of their nominal GDP to China: 
Djibouti, Tonga, Maldives, the Republic of the Congo, Kyrgyzstan, Cambodia, Niger, Laos, Zambia, Samoa, Vanuatu, and Mongolia.

2. ns there's the missing letters to add to the above. Is this a question?

3. I pretty much agree. But the strong stance was post Trump.

4. Literally everyone above us and below Russia.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> I'll keep it short:
> 
> 1. Sri Lanka
> The rest of your question was a history lesson.
> Debt of at least 20% of their nominal GDP to China:
> Djibouti, Tonga, Maldives, the Republic of the Congo, Kyrgyzstan, Cambodia, Niger, Laos, Zambia, Samoa, Vanuatu, and Mongolia.
> 
> 2. ns there's the missing letters to add to the above. Is this a question?
> 
> 3. I pretty much agree. But the strong stance was post Trump.
> 
> 4. Literally everyone above us and below Russia.



Thanks, but I still fail to see how you see the US as any better than China.

US conquers by force
China conquers by trade

Did the US, the people, the govnuts send their manufacturing to China?

Australia did, and I speak from the heart as I had to close down a manufacturing business 2 decades ago, as I could not complete against the Chinese. Who's fault was it, I don't know? But still had to make the decision

So if you want to keep defending Chump, go for it, but he is no different to every other business man/woman, it is all about the dollar.

Please prove me wrong.


----------



## sptrawler

Two wrongs don't make a right, in reality Australia is at a junction IMO.
To the left is a system that is dominated by China and its social and political structures, to the right is the U.S and its structures, ours have been built on a system more closely aligned to the U.S model.
If people want change we can only hope it is for the better, I don't see many refugees rushing to get to a Chinese or indeed any Asian country, on the other hand there are many fighting to get into the U.S, Canada, U.K and Australia.
Maybe the time is right for change, maybe we deserve it, what is the old saying "you don't realise what you've got, till it's gone" .
Our Country is fast becoming multicultural, and has a strong Asian presence, which is fine we will probably be majority Asian in 50 years.
If we keep kicking the U.S in the nuts and embracing China, the public perception will change and votes will change then foreign ownership laws change.
Like I said it isn't about Trump  or Biden it is more about which countries business model we chose, it is about which business model we wish to align ourselves with, I personally don't like either but if I have to chose I will stay with what we have.
Just my thoughts.

On a lighter note the LA Lakers won apparently, social distancing wasn't high on the agenda. lol








						Wild scenes as LA descends into chaos
					

The streets of Los Angeles have been overtaken by a sea of purple and gold as Lakers fans celebrate their team winning a historic 17th NBA championship.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Thanks, but I still fail to see how you see the US as any better than China.
> 
> US conquers by force
> China conquers by trade
> 
> Did the US, the people, the govnuts send their manufacturing to China?
> 
> Australia did, and I speak from the heart as I had to close down a manufacturing business 2 decades ago, as I could not complete against the Chinese. Who's fault was it, I don't know? But still had to make the decision
> 
> So if you want to keep defending Chump, go for it, but he is no different to every other business man/woman, it is all about the dollar.
> 
> Please prove me wrong.



Remember a time when everyone wanted a leader that wasn't part of the establishment. That did things differently.
Well here he is and everyone pissed and moaned about it for 4 years.

Trump at least tried against huge resistance. China has been called out along with globalism.
He wasn't part of the system that sold out. And has at least attempted peace where it would have been bombs before.

Politics whether people like it or not have changed more in the last 4 years then the previous 2 decades.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Remember a time when everyone wanted a leader that wasn't part of the establishment. That did things differently.
> Well here he is and everyone pissed and moaned about it for 4 years.




When, who, what time was that, who is everyone, can you again clarify with these radical self-belief statements?

Chump got in because no one wanted Hillary, not because he represented change. He has changed things, I agree, divided a nation and left the US in more debt.

Our that is right, you are correct, he su--ked off the NK, that seems have done bugger all of nothing, cannot even give a blo----w job effectively.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> When, who, what time was that, who is everyone, can you again clarify with these radical self-belief statements?



When Bush was in power.
Which lead to Obama.
Which lead to Trump.
Which said a lot about Hillary.

Again, Hillary personified the establishment. Trumps whole platform was anti establishment.
It was 4 years ago come on.


----------



## satanoperca

When was the wall going to be built again?


----------



## IFocus

Last month the price of derivatives (insurance traders take out to protect themselves from sharp moves in the market) shot up, as investors believed the US election result would be contested for weeks or months.

Two events have since taken place: the first US presidential debate, and Donald Trump contracting coronavirus.

Westpac senior currency strategist Sean Callow has been following the currency markets and traders' views on who will win the election. He says since those two events, financial markets are now pricing in (predicting) a comfortable Joe Biden election victory.




*The markets now predict that Donald Trump will lose the US election. Here's how we know*










						The markets have turned on Donald Trump — and they now predict he'll lose
					

Some of Trump's enthusiasm to get back to work may be driven by an uncomfortable realisation that he may lose. And currency markets are now pointing to precisely that outcome, writes David Taylor.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Last month the price of derivatives (insurance traders take out to protect themselves from sharp moves in the market) shot up, as investors believed the US election result would be contested for weeks or months.
> 
> Two events have since taken place: the first US presidential debate, and Donald Trump contracting coronavirus.
> 
> Westpac senior currency strategist Sean Callow has been following the currency markets and traders' views on who will win the election. He says since those two events, financial markets are now pricing in (predicting) a comfortable Joe Biden election victory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The markets now predict that Donald Trump will lose the US election. Here's how we know*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The markets have turned on Donald Trump — and they now predict he'll lose
> 
> 
> Some of Trump's enthusiasm to get back to work may be driven by an uncomfortable realisation that he may lose. And currency markets are now pointing to precisely that outcome, writes David Taylor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au



I think most on the forum agree that Trump is going to loose, Moxjo has stated he thinks so and I definitely do.
So it will be interesting to reflect on the U.S manufacturing and fiscal dynamics in 4 years.


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> I think most on the forum agree that Trump is going to loose, Moxjo has stated he thinks so and I definitely do.
> So it will be interesting to reflect on the U.S manufacturing and fiscal dynamics in 4 years.




*Trump is going to romp it in.*

Read the electorate.

No doubt the Dems will use any voter fraud they can to stop him, but the numbers will be too big and their only resort will be to obey Hillary's order not to concede. Four more years.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> I think most on the forum agree that Trump is going to loose, Moxjo has stated he thinks so and I definitely do.
> So it will be interesting to reflect on the U.S manufacturing and fiscal dynamics in 4 years.



Yea, maybe the Democrats can turn it around. 26.7 trillion at present!


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, maybe the Democrats can turn it around.



What support the multi nationals to offshore more manufacturing?
Time will tell, but Trump has certainly copped a hammering for trying to impose tarrifs on Chinese imports.
I haven't a clue as to the dynamics of U.S politics and am not interested in learning, all i do is try and apply logics to the events that happen.
So Trump pushes for manufacturing to return to the U.S from cheap labour countries (China), which should increase employment in the U.S, but would massively reduce the profits of the multi national companies.
The multi national companies spend billions on advertising through the media, the media hammer Trump for putting on tarrifs and anything else they can dream up, Trump gets thrown out things return to normal the multi nationals are happy the media is happy.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> What support the multi nationals to offshore more manufacturing?
> Time will tell, but Trump has certainly copped a hammering for trying to impose tarrifs on Chinese imports.



No, turn it around, bring it back. Trump has failed on this score. Refer above charts.
All that has happened is the jobs have gone to Mexico.








						Trump steel tarriffs resulted in job losses in Michigan
					

road to hell is paved with good intentions. if they were good intentions…



					www.thestreet.com


----------



## moXJO

Trump is gooone. 
Perhaps if covid hadn't turned up he could have made it through. But the hammering economy and population took will be the nail. That debate did him no favours either.

So onwards to Harris.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> No, turn it around, bring it back. Trump has failed on this score. Refer above charts.
> All that has happened is the jobs have gone to Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump steel tarriffs resulted in job losses in Michigan
> 
> 
> road to hell is paved with good intentions. if they were good intentions…
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestreet.com



The jobs went to Mexico in the 1970's when the Lima agreement was signed, after the South American countries defaulted on their loans.

The article you posted shows trump endeavoured to protect the steel industry, but if the companies don't want to spend the money updating plant and want to instead make the profit by offshoring to exploit cheap labour countries, is that Trumps fault? They should put higher tarrifs on and force the companies to improve their plant in return.
From your article:

_*The tariffs did initially benefit companies including U.S. Steel and Nucor by limiting competition and boosting prices. In late 2018, U.S. Steel workers secured a cumulative 14% wage increase over a four-year period.*

The tariffs also led to investment, said Jeff Ferry, chief economist at the Coalition for a Prosperous America, a bipartisan trade group. *Older coal-fired plants such as Great Lakes Works closed because of outdated technology, he said.*

That’s little comfort to the workers laid off from Great Lakes Works, who have found it harder to get new jobs amid the pandemic_,

So in reality how you can blame Trump, just shows how effective the media brainwashing is. The company boosted profits but didn't spend any money on improving the plant and that's Trump's fault? lol
Just my opinion.
I guess the election will show if the Americans as as easily hoodwinked as the Australians.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> The jobs went to Mexico in the 1970's when the Lima agreement was signed, after the South American countries defaulted on their loans.
> 
> The article you posted shows trump endeavoured to protect the steel industry, but if the companies don't want to spend the money updating plant and want to instead make the profit by offshoring to exploit cheap labour countries, is that Trumps fault? They should put higher tarrifs on and force the companies to improve their plant in return.
> From your article:
> 
> _*The tariffs did initially benefit companies including U.S. Steel and Nucor by limiting competition and boosting prices. In late 2018, U.S. Steel workers secured a cumulative 14% wage increase over a four-year period.*
> 
> The tariffs also led to investment, said Jeff Ferry, chief economist at the Coalition for a Prosperous America, a bipartisan trade group. *Older coal-fired plants such as Great Lakes Works closed because of outdated technology, he said.*
> 
> That’s little comfort to the workers laid off from Great Lakes Works, who have found it harder to get new jobs amid the pandemic_,
> 
> So in reality how you can blame Trump, just shows how effective the media brainwashing is. The company boosted profits but didn't spend any money on improving the plant and that's Trump's fault? lol
> Just my opinion.
> I guess the election will show if the Americans as as easily hoodwinked as the Australians.




I think his approach is wrong. If he wants to bring manufacturing back to the USA he needs to use other tools. Tarriffs are a blunt instrument that hurts manufacturing if done badly. If stell is dearer for instance then it costs more to build cars, so car manufacturers will move.

China is actually doing better to the USA since tariffs were put in. Different tactics are needed.
He promotes simplistic answers to complex problems.

Now the USA is getting into a cold war with China, things will change no matter who is in power.
https://www.gzeromedia.com/graphic-truth-us-china-trade-balance


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> I think his approach is wrong. If he wants to bring manufacturing back to the USA he needs to use other tools. Tarriffs are a blunt instrument that hurts manufacturing if done badly. If stell is dearer for instance then it costs more to build cars, so car manufacturers will move.
> 
> China is actually doing better to the USA since tariffs were put in. Different tactics are needed.
> He promotes simplistic answers to complex problems.



We have been through this before and it is a waste of time, but what do you suggest.
Western countries that look after their workers and in some cases pay welfare, can't compete with China in manufacturing, which in the end will cause western countries to be unable to afford to pay the wages and welfare they currently enjoy.

The last few U.S administrations have appealed to China to float their currency, so that the cost of production of their product is reflected in the price.
China continually refused, so as the U.S dropped the value of its currency to make its product cheaper, the Chinese just keep dropping the value of their yuan, then your toaster and kettle go down to $7, which in reality is probably cheaper than the sum of its components.

So Trump comes along and says right unless you come to the table about revaluing your currency, we will put a tax on U.S products that are made in China, the rest is history.

The U.S companies didn't like it.

But hey asking them nicely has worked in the past. Not.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> We have been through this before and it is a waste of time, but what do you suggest.
> Western countries that look after their workers and in some cases pay welfare, can't compete with China in manufacturing, which in the end will cause western countries to be unable to afford to pay the wages and welfare they currently enjoy.
> 
> The last few U.S administrations have appealed to China to float their currency, so that the cost of production of their product is reflected in the price.
> China continually refused, so as the U.S dropped the value of its currency to make its product cheaper, the Chinese just keep dropping the value of their yuan, then your toaster and kettle go down to $7, which in reality is probably cheaper than the sum of its components.
> 
> So Trump comes along and says right unless you come to the table about revaluing your currency, we will put a tax on U.S products that are made in China, the rest is history.
> 
> The U.S companies didn't like it.
> 
> But hey asking them nicely has worked in the past. Not.



Yes, some billionaires are taking the Fed Government to court to stop it. True. Trouble is it isn't working but it is a great signal that things have to change.

There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing.  Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.  

We in Australia could do this also.


----------



## satanoperca

Knobby22 said:


> work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line.



I agree with your sentiment, but words need to be chosen carefully. We do not need to punish China. That is so primary school level fighting.

We just need to be smarter than them, through as you have suggested greater investment into sciences and technologies.

The only problem I see is China is already miles ahead of us. They implement 50 year plans, we implement 4 year plans. Hard to bet them, when they don't have elections every 4 years


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, some billionaires are taking the Fed Government to court to stop it. True. Trouble is it isn't working but it is a great signal that things have to change.
> 
> There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing.



Yes, that is tariffs, China has cheap labour, no work place agreements, no minimum wage, no welfare, cheap power, cheap houses, controlled currency.
so how do you adjust taxes so we can supply a competitive product at a competitive price and maintain wages and conditions, welfare, cheap houses, cheap power and maintain our living standard?



Knobby22 said:


> Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.
> 
> We in Australia could do this also.



Really what planet are you on, the only way that we can compete is if China starts and charges a price for its goods, that other countries can compete with i.e deregulate their currency.
If not, first world countries like Australia will become third world and China will own us and be holidaying here, we will be an outback version of Bali.
The upside to that is we will have no trouble becoming 'green' and clean, we wont be able to afford to run all of our electrical gadgets, Indonesia with a population of 250million uses about the same amount of power as we do with a population of 25million.
The good thing is at least the media will go broke and reporters wont be on $million dollar wages. 😂

But we will just keep sleepwalking over the cliff, because the media tells us it is the best thing for us.👍

Anyway probably enough on the issue, we will just have to wait untill you get enough batteries for your magic wand and get people to buy an Aussie toaster for $70 instead of the Chinese equivalent for $7.
My guess is we will be living like the Chinese, when we can compete, but bring it on everyone seems to be cheering for it, at least then we wont have to stupid shows like the boss sleeping on the street, we will all be able to do it. 😂

What people forget is, it was only 40 years ago you could buy an aussie kettle, fridge, T.V, we even made trains and rolling stock.
it was only a couple of years ago we made cars, but reducing tariffs made that uncompetitive, so i guess we just keep marching on untill the raw materials are gone.lol


----------



## sptrawler

satanoperca said:


> We just need to be smarter than them, through as you have suggested greater investment into sciences and technologies.




Which they then either copy or buy up, or the company, that makes it can make it 100 times cheaper in China, sends the manufacturing there.



satanoperca said:


> The only problem I see is China is already miles ahead of us. They implement 50 year plans, we implement 4 year plans. *Hard to bet them, when they don't have elections every 4 years*



Or pay welfare or have a medicare system, or pay a minimum wage, or pay sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave, long service leave.

Do you really think Australia can compete with China without some regulation on their currency, or duty on their competing imports.
This is an investment forum, one would expect, the fundamentals of a competitive business wouldn't be hard to understand.


----------



## Knobby22

Don't know why you bring the media into it. I think its just a good way for some people to avoid responsibility and pass the buck.

Manufacturing is more than toasters and we win when stuff is made cheaper and they lower their currency.
And the world is becoming more automated so labour costs are less important.

We, in the western world just have to acted a bit smarter, Germany has competed on the world stage with amazingly good worker conditions.  The English speaking world are slowly waking up, even Australia.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Don't know why you bring the media into it. I think its just a good way for some people to avoid responsibility and pass the buck.
> 
> Manufacturing is more than toasters and we win when stuff is made cheaper and they lower their currency.
> And the world is becoming more automated so labour costs are less important.
> 
> We, in the western world just have to acted a bit smarter, Germany has competed on the world stage with amazingly good worker conditions.  The English speaking world are slowly waking up, even Australia.



Why I bring the media into it, is actually because of the very things you posted e.g.
_There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing. Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways._

Which is exactly what Trump is doing and what you criticise him for, the problem lies in people not thinking about the bigger picture and letting the media do it for them.
There are multiple examples in many threads, of where people's perceptions are being manipulated in order to paint politicians in a particular light, this is really glaring where the deliniation between State and Federal responsibilities is muddied.
The Federal government gets blamed when it is a State issue and the States get blamed when it is a Federal issue, this is usually done to paint a certain politician in a bad light.

As for Germany well they have been importing cheap labor for years, mostly from Turkey from memory and a lot of their cars are built overseas, our VW's are built in South Africa for example.


----------



## satanoperca

sptrawler said:


> Which they then either copy or buy up, or the company, that makes it can make it 100 times cheaper in China, sends the manufacturing there.
> 
> 
> Or pay welfare or have a medicare system, or pay a minimum wage, or pay sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave, long service leave.
> 
> Do you really think Australia can compete with China without some regulation on their currency, or duty on their competing imports.
> This is an investment forum, one would expect, the fundamentals of a competitive business wouldn't be hard to understand.



Firstly I am in agreeance with your statements.

But to add to the discussion :
Which they then either copy or buy up" As someone who has being going to China for manufacturing for 20 years, in summary this is what I have learnt>
1. Chinese do not copy, as they do not know what to copy. Westerners take product to China to be copied, this is a fundamental difference.
2. We cannot compete against China, as you have pointed out, it is not a level playing ground, their social services, workplace, minimum wage requirements are very different. But that is not their fault.
*3. Possibly the most important of them all, us westerners support it. Several years ago I was having a heated discussion with a union rep, he was pro Australian, which I am. However, I tried to explain to him that it was not as simple as his beliefs, it required people to act. He looked at me confused, and then commented, we need to support Australian business, I looked at him puzzled. Really, I replied and then asked him if he did? He looked again at me puzzled. I then asked him where his shirt, pants, socks, work boots where made. *
His response what an example of why the current situation is what it is.

I don't know. Well it didn't take long to realise everything he was wearing was made offshore. When presented with this simple demonstration that it is a little more complicated. His response was simple.

Why should I pay more?

In which, I asked him, so your original comment, that we should support Australian business, sounds great as long as it doesn't cost you.

He looked at me again, puzzled.

End of story

_As for China not floating their currency, they are just smarter than us, it has worked in their advantage and we have supported it and allowed it._


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing. Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.





satanoperca said:


> Firstly I am in agreeance with your statements.
> 
> But to add to the discussion :
> Which they then either copy or buy up" As someone who has being going to China for manufacturing for 20 years, in summary this is what I have learnt>
> 1. Chinese do not copy, as they do not know what to copy. Westerners take product to China to be copied, this is a fundamental difference.
> 2. We cannot compete against China, as you have pointed out, it is not a level playing ground, their social services, workplace, minimum wage requirements are very different. But that is not their fault.
> *3. Possibly the most important of them all, us westerners support it. Several years ago I was having a heated discussion with a union rep, he was pro Australian, which I am. However, I tried to explain to him that it was not as simple as his beliefs, it required people to act. He looked at me confused, and then commented, we need to support Australian business, I looked at him puzzled. Really, I replied and then asked him if he did? He looked again at me puzzled. I then asked him where his shirt, pants, socks, work boots where made. *
> His response what an example of why the current situation is what it is.
> 
> I don't know. Well it didn't take long to realise everything he was wearing was made offshore. When presented with this simple demonstration that it is a little more complicated. His response was simple.
> 
> Why should I pay more?
> 
> In which, I asked him, so your original comment, that we should support Australian business, sounds great as long as it doesn't cost you.
> 
> He looked at me again, puzzled.
> 
> End of story
> 
> _As for China not floating their currency, they are just smarter than us, it has worked in their advantage and we have supported it and allowed it._



Exactly right Satanoperca.
As you were saying people will buy what is cheapest which is understandable, hence the demise of our car industry, shoe and clothing industries, it started dying as soon as Hawke and Keating started removing the tariffs, it was only a matter of time.
The ideology behind it is sounds great, removing tariffs makes industry more competitive and secondly some things are inefficient to make here because it is a small local market place. 

The other part of the equation, was to offshore manufacturing to third world countries, to improve their living standards. In some places this has worked, in others the poor still don't get anything and the elite keep it.
With China they have done a brilliant job IMO, of bringing their country into the first world in 30 years, however they have to put a brake on it as it is crippling manufacturing everywhere else.
This can only be done by increasing the cost of their product, this has a two fold effect it reduces wastage of the "it is cheaper to replace it, than fix it" mentality at the end user stage, also it means the manufacturer makes more per unit and can translate that into increased wages/conditions or the Government can increase taxes and improve welfare.

The end game for first world countries isn't looking good, if the trajectory continues with Chinese gear getting cheaper and domestic manufacturing failing, eventually there will be a complete roll reversal. I only hope the Chinese are as benevolent toward us, as we have been toward them, but the latest trade emborgoes don't bode well for that happening.


----------



## basilio

IFocus said:


> Westpac senior currency strategist Sean Callow has been following the currency markets and traders' views on who will win the election. He says since those two events, financial markets are now pricing in (predicting) a comfortable Joe Biden election victory.




Interesting...
Certainly the polls  are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would  indicate  a safe victory,
However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but

1) Who counts the votes and
2) Whose votes are counted


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Interesting...
> Certainly the polls  are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would  indicate  a safe victory,
> However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but
> 
> 1) Who counts the votes and
> 2) Whose votes are counted



Well I guess if Biden wins, it is fair and if Trump wins it is rigged. 😂


----------



## IFocus

Who wins the Senate is the issue if Biden wins but loses in the Senate then not much will happen except 4 years of more or deeper division.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Interesting...
> Certainly the polls  are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would  indicate  a safe victory,
> However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but
> 
> 1) Who counts the votes and
> 2) Whose votes are counted



To add:
Its 3 states that matter. And enthusiasm of voters. 


Trump is back to the rallies so watch for shifts the next two weeks.


----------



## PZ99

sptrawler said:


> Well I guess if Biden wins, it is fair and if Trump wins it is rigged. 😂



I reckon if Biden wins and Trump says that's fair then it's Trump himself who is rigged


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> Trump is back to the rallies so watch for shifts the next two weeks.




I think it is simpler than that the silent majority are just sick of the left.


----------



## sptrawler

It sounds as though it gets pretty heated over in the U.S, even in retirement villages.








						The battle of golf carts heats up for the US election
					

In The Villages, Florida, golf carts are not just the favoured mode of transport but of political protest.




					www.smh.com.au
				




From the article:

*The Villages, Florida: *_It is Debi Hahn’s first golf cart parade for Donald Trump, and she came dressed for the occasion. Sparkly denim Trump hat. Stars-and-stripes leggings. Trump sneakers. Complementing the outfit is her green golf cart, plastered in pro-Trump flags, stickers and signs.

The 68-year-old grandmother lives in The Villages, a sprawling area in central Florida that is the biggest retirement village in the United States. Often described as a "Disneyland for retirees", The Villages boasts more than 80 swimming pools, 100 tennis courts and 50 golf courses, making it a magnet for senior citizens from across the country.

Here, golf carts are not just the favoured mode of transport but of political protest. To display their support for the US President, hundreds of Villagers have gathered to ride their carts together across the specially-designed trails that wind around the area.

"I think he’s awesome," Hahn says while waiting for the parade to begin. “I wish people would just leave him alone so he could do an even better job. He has the country’s best interests at heart.”


Americans over 65 make up a quarter of the electorate and — even more importantly — they turn out to vote in bigger numbers than any other age group. In the 2016 election, 71 per cent of them voted compared to just 46 per cent of 18 to 29-year-olds.

While The Villages bills itself as "America's friendliest hometown", political disputes can get heated here.

Just ask 72-year-old Ed McGinty, who has been dubbed the "most hated man in The Villages".


Before moving to Florida from Pennsylvania five years ago, the retired real estate broker had never been involved in political activism. Then he became radicalised by Trump.

McGinty has taken to displaying often crude signs on his golf cart calling Trump "white trash", a "filthy pig" and "Putin's bitch". In June, he went to the police to report getting attacked by a Trump supporter who took offence at one of his signs, leaving him with a bloodied lip and scratches on his neck.

For an hour each afternoon McGinty sits by a busy road with his golf cart to spread his message. When The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age visit him, he is displaying a sign saying: "May Donald Trump burn in hell 200,000 dead". One angry woman pulls over to call him "un-American" and tell him he should be ashamed of himsel_f.


Sounds as exciting as the 'swinging arms", front bar at Kambalda.lol


----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> I think it is simpler than that the silent majority are just sick of the left.



I think the majority as loosing more than than the 1%> chump man is for the 1%, if he wasn't and wants to expel that his is a billionaire, pay some taxes.

You dutchie must be in the 1% of earners.

Chump man is the swamp!


----------



## dutchie

satanoperca said:


> You dutchie must be in the 1% of earners.




Who told you that?


----------



## basilio

Seems as if no matter hard they try Trump, Barr and the wealth of  internet trolls can't find any evidence that Obama and Biden *did anything at all wrong* in the Russian investigations. 

It will be interesting to see what a post Trump administration  discovers when it starts digging into the current AG's actions

*Unmasking' inquiry ordered by Barr finds no wrongdoing by Obama officials – report*
Findings seen as defeat for Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against Biden




William Barr ordered John Bash to investigate whether Obama administration officials had mishandled classified intelligence relating to the Russia investigation. Photograph: Brynn Anderson/AP

Tom McCarthy

@TeeMcSee
Wed 14 Oct 2020 14.18 EDT
Last modified on Wed 14 Oct 2020 14.24 EDT


A federal prosecutor handpicked by the attorney general, William Barr, to investigate whether Obama administration officials had mishandled classified intelligence relating to the Russia investigation has wrapped up his work without finding wrongdoing or considering charges, according to the Washington Post.

The conclusion of an investigation by US attorney John Bash into the so-called “unmasking” of names in intelligence reports by Obama officials was seen as a defeat for Donald Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against former vice=president Joe Biden
.
“Unsurprising. What a politically-driven waste of [justice department] resources,” tweeted Sam Vinograd, an adviser to the national security council under Barack Obama.

A second federal investigation launched by Barr into Obama-era investigations of Russian election tampering, in this case led by US attorney John Durham of Connecticut, likewise has failed to bear political fruit before the presidential election.
Durham continues to investigate the origins of investigations into Russian election meddling and Trump campaign contacts with Russian operatives. Trump asserts the Trump-Russia investigation was a political hit job.

But the Russia investigation, led by special counsel Robert Mueller resulted in the indictment of 34 individuals and criminal charges against half a dozen Trump associates, including multiple guilty pleas.

Barr told a group of Republican lawmakers earlier this year that Durham would not file a report – much less any charges – before the presidential election, dashing what appeared to be increasingly desperate hopes inside the Trump administration for a Biden-related scandal.

Officials in the executive branch routinely move to “unmask” names in classified intelligence documents in order to better understand the documents, the Post reported.

The “unmasking” conducted during the Obama administration revealed that former national security adviser Michael Flynn, a key figure in the 2016 Trump campaign, was in the crosshairs of the Russia investigation, which had picked up contacts between Flynn and Russian operatives that Flynn later lied about.

That revelation proved to be politically damaging to Trump. The emergence of Flynn’s deep ties to Russian operatives, which he later admitted falsely denying, led to his resignation as national security adviser and was an early blow for the Trump administration.

Trump at the time asked the then FBI director, James Comey, to “go easy” on Flynn, in a scene that would become a central piece of evidence against Trump in Mueller’s investigation of possible obstruction of justice by the president.

*That investigation would in turn fuel demands for Trump’s impeachment, after it was revealed that the US president had pressured the Ukrainian president to generate negative headlines about Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

Trump was impeached in December 2019, and acquitted by the Senate in early 2020, but the key players in the scheme that led to his impeachment remained active in trying to fabricate a scandal attached to Biden’s son in advance of the election.









						'Unmasking' inquiry ordered by Barr finds no wrongdoing by Obama officials – report
					

Findings seen as defeat for Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against Biden




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Seems as if no matter hard they try Trump, Barr and the wealth of  internet trolls can't find any evidence that Obama and Biden *did anything at all wrong* in the Russian investigations.
> 
> What hypocrisy.


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> I'll keep it short:
> 
> 1. Sri Lanka
> The rest of your question was a history lesson.
> Debt of at least 20% of their nominal GDP to China:
> Djibouti, Tonga, Maldives, the Republic of the Congo, Kyrgyzstan, Cambodia, Niger, Laos, Zambia, Samoa, Vanuatu, and Mongolia.
> 
> 2. ns there's the missing letters to add to the above. Is this a question?
> 
> 3. I pretty much agree. But the strong stance was post Trump.
> 
> 4. Literally everyone above us and below Russia.











						What happens when poorer nations lured by China's cheap loans can't pay them back?
					

China is splashing out billions of dollars in concessional loans to developing countries, but what happens when these debt-laden nations can't pay Beijing back?




					www.abc.net.au
				




Here is an article on what you were talking about @moXJO, Australia with the Darwin Port and the Victorian belt and road initiative are starting to head down the same road.
It is a risky game, when you are borrowing money, from the very same people you are dependent on to buy what you are selling.
They stop buying, you can't pay the loan, you have to give them something.🙄
Another example of the smugness that is permeating through Australia, "we are smart, we are invincible".
We are dicks. IMO


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> What happens when poorer nations lured by China's cheap loans can't pay them back?
> 
> 
> China is splashing out billions of dollars in concessional loans to developing countries, but what happens when these debt-laden nations can't pay Beijing back?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an article on what you were talking about @moXJO, Australia with the Darwin Port and the Victorian belt and road initiative are starting to head down the same road.
> It is a risky game, when you are borrowing money, from the very same people you are dependent on to buy what you are selling.
> They stop buying, you can't pay the loan, you have to give them something.🙄
> Another example of the smugness that is permeating through Australia, "we are smart, we are invincible".
> We are dicks. IMO



Similar through Africa, Vanuatu, I think Kazakhstan area. There are actually a lot of places that threw in with it. 

On the smugness of Australians. I'm noticing a nastiness that's creeping in as well. Customer service has always sacked in this country. But its very apparent now.


----------



## moXJO

Sucked not sacked. Damn auto correct.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Customer service has always sucked in this country. But its very apparent now.




Customer service has changed, it is driven by dollars.

Customer service used to require a human, but it doesn't anymore.

The younger generations see customer service as this:

Can I find a website(s) that has what I am looking for - YES
Does it load fast - YES
Does it have good content - YES
Is it the cheapest price - YES
Can I checked out (pay for) almost instantly - YES
Is my product going to get delivered fast - YES
Can I return it if I change my mind - YES

Brilliant customer service, no human required.


----------



## IFocus

To be honest I am over the American BS fake smile can I help you sir have a nice bla bla..............me thinking  Fu(k off and be Ostralian FFS gimme "what ya want" "you want what? nah dont sell that crap".


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> To be honest I am over the American BS fake smile can I help you sir have a nice bla bla..............me thinking  Fu(k off and be Ostralian FFS gimme "what ya want" "you want what? nah dont sell that crap".



That's why we have a basic wages, awards and enterprise agreements, so workers don't have to beg for tips.
But it does lend itself over time to a lax attitude, as it is difficult to reward excellent workers, without retribution.
I think ours is a better system, but it does breed complacency and lack of endeavour.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> To be honest I am over the American BS fake smile can I help you sir have a nice bla bla..............me thinking  Fu(k off and be Ostralian FFS gimme "what ya want" "you want what? nah dont sell that crap".



I had to go into the rta or service centre and explain their rules to them last week. They stuffed up two friends- due to staff having no idea what they were doing.

Ended up getting the manager out (after roasting the desk staff). Who when he checked confirmed I was actually in the right.

As much as I love being a know it all a55hole, I am honest sick of the attitude they front up with. I'm pleasant at the start where they just go full bore rude. 
I actually asked the friend that was there if I came of standoffish at the start and they said I was the complete opposite.
Admittedly by the end of it I had told them the irony of being called a "service  center" and then used a few choice words after that.

Not looking forward to renewing my licence.

Bank staff at commonwealth have been similar. To a few acquaintances. Don't get me started on phone calls.

I've dealt with a lot of customers and always tried to go above and beyond even if it was $20 profit. 

Did covid make everyone forget how to deal with people.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> To be honest I am over the American BS fake smile can I help you sir have a nice bla bla..............me thinking  Fu(k off and be Ostralian FFS gimme "what ya want" "you want what? nah dont sell that crap".



Knockabouts I don't mind as they usually have a chat.


----------



## DB008

Hmm, interesting....

Censorship in full swing at Twitter HQ


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> That's why we have a basic wages, awards and enterprise agreements, so workers don't have to beg for tips.
> But it does lend itself over time to a lax attitude, as it is difficult to reward excellent workers, without retribution.
> I think ours is a better system, but it does breed complacency and lack of endeavour.





I was dumbstruck how rude Americans were to waitresses in the US who kept smiling for the tip it was horrible.


----------



## macca

IFocus said:


> I was dumbstruck how rude Americans were to waitresses in the US who kept smiling for the tip it was horrible.




When we were in USA and Canada we said hello to the staff, like we do in Oz and the Canadians were OK with that but US staff were kind of shocked that we treated them as people


----------



## satanoperca

IFocus said:


> I was dumbstruck how rude Americans were to waitresses in the US who kept smiling for the tip it was horrible.



Personal experience, I never wanted to go the USA, went due to a wedding, found the average person, service provider, considerate and personable, but might have been due to I have an Ozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzie accent or are polite to people.


----------



## satanoperca

macca said:


> US staff were kind of shocked that we treated them as people




Because you are an arrogant Australian.


----------



## macca

satanoperca said:


> Because you are an arrogant Australian.




I don't follow your comment, Oz are far less arrogant than US or Euro people according to people I know who have worked in hospitality around the world

Drunken yobbos  are never popular no matter where they come from


----------



## satanoperca

macca said:


> I don't follow your comment, Oz are far less arrogant than US or Euro people according to people I know who have worked in hospitality around the world
> 
> Drunken yobbos  are never popular no matter where they come from



 We are yobbos, face the facts


----------



## macca

satanoperca said:


> We are yobbos, face the facts




You may be, I have never met you so I don't know but  my friends and I are not, how we behave is a personal choice.

We have got on well with people of all nationalities when travelling


----------



## satanoperca

macca said:


> You may be but I and my friends are not, how we behave is a personal choice



As I have travelled across the globe, the only time I have been embarrassed is often due to you yobbo australians


----------



## basilio

Scenarios on how the US election could play out given the current situation.
Ugly. 

From a market POV Nov/Dec could look very dangerous.
*Timeline / how 2020 US election scenarios could play out*

Americans are used to a certain routine with presidential elections – but this year might be different.








						Timeline: how 2020 US election scenarios could play out
					

Americans are used to a certain routine with presidential elections – but this year might be different




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22

Lol, lol ,lol.  Personally I believe everything the Betoota Advocate says.








						Donald Trump shares a satirical story about Joe Biden, seemingly unaware it was actual fake news
					

The story Mr Trump shared was from the Babylon Bee, a satirical news site with the motto "Fake news you can trust" clearly visible on its Twitter page.




					www.sbs.com.au
				




US President Donald Trump shared a satirical article Friday about Twitter shutting down to slow the spread of negative news on his election rival Joe Biden, apparently unaware that it was a joke.

The story Mr Trump shared was from the Babylon Bee, a satirical news site with the motto "Fake news you can trust" clearly visible on its Twitter page. 

The website's chief executive officer Seth Dillon offered his own light-hearted take soon after attracting Mr Trump's attention, proudly declaring: "The Babylon Bee is the president's most trusted news source."

At a televised town hall event in Miami on Thursday, Mr Trump defended his retweets, saying "people can decide for themselves" if the outlandish theories he shares have any merit.

"I don't get that," NBC interviewer Savannah Guthrie retorted. "You're the president, you're not like someone's crazy uncle who can just retweet whatever."


----------



## PZ99

Babylon Bee is the obvious goto place for the brainwashed


----------



## basilio

Excellent article on the role of retirement villages in Florida in the election.
The Villages were overwhelmingly Trump voters in 2016 but there seems  to be many  senior (republican)  voters wanting Trump out.

*Donald Trump could face a revolt from senior voters on November 3. It will come down to a place called The Villages*

Donald Trump's future as the President of the United States could come down to what happens in one community of senior citizens in central Florida.

Among nearly 700 holes of golf, 60,000 golf carts and 12 country clubs, more than 130,000 people live what appears to be a very pleasant existence.

... This group was a massive help to Mr Trump in 2016, so recent polls that say he's now losing older voters by more than 20 percentage points are a heavy blow to his re-election hopes.

...Ms Stanley said every week people will walk into her modest campaign office and proclaim: "I am a Republican."

*"They step in and say 'I'm a Republican and I'm staying a Republican. What can I do to help you get rid of Trump?'"*









						Trouble in Trump paradise? Why this one powerful group of retirees could decide the next president
					

The Villages is not your typical retirement community. It's home to 130,000 Florida seniors who play golf, go to the movies and enjoy happy hour at their own bars. Now this crucial voting bloc may have a big say in who gets the White House.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio

Great summary of the Worlds Greatest Huckster and his Latest Greatest Sell.


----------



## spooly74

The Biden campaign just called a lid on any events with Joe till Thursday, 2 weeks out from an election.
Completely normal.

Where is Hunter? 😂🤣
🍿


----------



## moXJO

spooly74 said:


> Where is Hunter? 😂🤣
> 🍿



You know where

Here's Hunter!


----------



## dutchie




----------



## satanoperca

dutchie said:


> View attachment 113365



So did Chump create more jobs in the last four years or did he inherit a long term trend?


----------



## spooly74

moXJO said:


> You know where
> 
> Here's Hunter!



Hunter's former partner just dropped 26,000 emails minutes ago.
Link below is where they're going to start rolling out.
Biden is finished.


----------



## satanoperca

You really need to get out more, there is not evidence, else Trump would have used it

And strike me dead, the guys got 10,000 follows, my no one knows him, 15year old son has almost that.

Really, post something creative and at least worthy of reading.


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> You really need to get out more, there is not evidence, else Trump would have used it
> 
> And strike me dead, the guys got 10,000 follows, my no one knows him, 15year old son has almost that.
> 
> Really, post something creative and at least worthy of reading.



Was that directed at me?
If so, there's two different plays going on.
1. Hunters laptop. It ended up with Rudy. How do you know Trump isn't using it? Would you think that if all that was on the laptop was Hunter smoking crack or that Sleepy met with Burisma, they'd lead with that? Trump called it 'The laptop from Hell'.... drip, drip, drip. 
2. Hunter's ex partner is shopping him out with selected emails released to the link above. 1st release..... "I want to leverage Hunter more" - Devon Archer..... drip, drip, drip.

Sleepy is in trouble.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> Was that directed at me?
> If so, there's two different plays going on.
> 1. Hunters laptop. It ended up with Rudy. How do you know Trump isn't using it? Would you think that if all that was on the laptop was Hunter smoking crack or that Sleepy met with Burisma, they'd lead with that? Trump called it 'The laptop from Hell'.... drip, drip, drip.
> 2. Hunter's ex partner is shopping him out with selected emails released to the link above. 1st release..... "I want to leverage Hunter more" - Devon Archer..... drip, drip, drip.
> 
> Sleepy is in trouble.



Believe what you will, but Chump hasn't built a wall, unemployment is the highest in 10 years, he has contributed to more deaths than any war the US has been in, and all you have is a laptop that might contain something.

Has Chump shown his tax returns, NO. He has the most to hide, the swamp needs to be drained, and the plug is the Chump man.

Keep believing, one day you might might be right.

Given it is an election of 2 evils, the USA just needs to elect the lessor.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Believe what you will, but Chump hasn't built a wall, unemployment is the highest in 10 years, he has contributed to more deaths than any war the US has been in, and all you have is a laptop that might contain something.



There's 360 miles of wall so far with a target of about 450 miles this year. So he has in fact built a wall.

Unemployment because COVID-19. I'm sure Vic will be worse.

WWII had about 400000 US deaths so no, it does not have a higher death rate then "any war".


----------



## moXJO

Oh and we have every made up scandal that has gone on in this thread. A whole lot of lies pushed by the usual crowd.

The laptop just ain't a surprise.

Hillary literally had a lawyer craft a company to hire a foreign spy to write a "pee pee" dossier on Trump using Russian sources. 

And who can forget staff using hammers on their hard drives during the email scandal. 

Its a quagmire of stink no matter which side you look at.

But this thread is testimony to some of the craziest sht I have ever heard.


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> Believe what you will, but Chump hasn't built a wall, unemployment is the highest in 10 years, he has contributed to more deaths than any war the US has been in, and all you have is a laptop that might contain something.
> 
> Has Chump shown his tax returns, NO. He has the most to hide, the swamp needs to be drained, and the plug is the Chump man.
> 
> Keep believing, one day you might might be right.
> 
> Given it is an election of 2 evils, the USA just needs to elect the lessor.



Since inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall.

Nonsense re: deaths. It would be multiple times this had he not shut the international border. Don't see you blaming Scott Morrison for the deaths in Victoria.

And, it's not just the laptop as noted above. The emails (separate to the laptop) from former business partner will be forthcoming - and today were going to see details of a deal with the former Moscow mayors wife to launder funds into the US.
Just imagine if this was Eric or Don Jr. 
Sleepy is compromised.


----------



## DB008

dutchie said:


> Trump voters confirm that they are on the right track.
> 
> Biden supporters become doubtful.
> 
> 
> *Teen climate change activist Greta Thunberg endorses Biden*





Hmm....

Antifa


----------



## satanoperca

Since inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall

Check you facts, it is in the detail, he revamped some existing wall and built a little bit more. Hardly a great wall.

So there is a slight difference between building a wall(new) and a renovation.


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> Since inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall
> 
> Check you facts, it is in the detail, he revamped some existing wall and built a little bit more. Hardly a great wall.
> 
> So there is a slight difference between building a wall(new) and a renovation.



Indeed, nobody can get over/through the new wall.
Pesky little details, I know.


----------



## basilio

Why is Trump crashing in the last weeks  of  the election campaign ?
Check out the history of Trumps biggest cons..


----------



## Junior

spooly74 said:


> Indeed, nobody can get over/through the new wall.
> Pesky little details, I know.




Well, then his election promise should have been to "Upgrade the existing sections of Wall!!", because he hasn't extended it by even 1% of what was promised.


----------



## IFocus

I wouldn't be surprised if all the Biden stuff is true only problem is there have been two senate enquires run by Republicans and no adverse finding found.....I know might be a pesky detail but a lot coming out now sounds like desperation.

And to be honest I don't think any of it will have the slightest impact on the election reason being  everyone is numb from 4 years of Trumps BS.


----------



## basilio

spooly74 said:


> Was that directed at me?
> If so, there's two different plays going on.
> 1. Hunters laptop. It ended up with Rudy. How do you know Trump isn't using it? Would you think that if all that was on the laptop was Hunter smoking crack or that Sleepy met with Burisma, they'd lead with that? Trump called it 'The laptop from Hell'.... drip, drip, drip.
> 2. Hunter's ex partner is shopping him out with selected emails released to the link above. 1st release..... "I want to leverage Hunter more" - Devon Archer..... drip, drip, drip.
> 
> Sleepy is in trouble.




Are you aware just how , HOW smelly the "Biden Laptop" story is ?
Are you aware that Fox News wouldn't run it because  of "Credibility concerns" . Essentially it was clearly unverifiable and dodgy ?
Did you know that The New York Post journalists refused to put their name on the story because it  had no credibility?


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> Since inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall





Junior said:


> Well, then his election promise should have been to "Upgrade the existing sections of Wall!!", because he hasn't extended it by even 1% of what was promised.



The funny thing is, people on this forum believe he built a wall, it was a great wall, the best wall ever and the mexicos paid for it..

Sounds like a few people on this forum have been to Trump University, this stuff is so funny.


----------



## spooly74

basilio said:


> Are you aware just how , HOW smelly the "Biden Laptop" story is ?
> Are you aware that Fox News wouldn't run it because  of "Credibility concerns" . Essentially it was clearly unverifiable and dodgy ?
> Did you know that The New York Post journalists refused to put their name on the story because it  had no credibility?




Not in its entirety, but looking forward to all the details.
Fox have run it. I'd say they're still running it.
By Emma-Jo Morris and Gabrielle Fonrouge


----------



## spooly74

Junior said:


> Well, then his election promise should have been to "Upgrade the existing sections of Wall!!", because he hasn't extended it by even 1% of what was promised.



Yeah, you're right. 
That's got a better ring to it ,but, it isn't even a wall.
Just a big steel fence you can see through.
"Upgrade the existing sections from an orb sheet wall to a steel fence with airflow." ....that's the ticket.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> Since the inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall.



So we agree, he didn't build 400m a day of wall, he upgraded some of it, maybe.

Devil is always in the detail, learn how to investigate before you think you have knowledge.


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> So we agree, he didn't build 400m a day of wall, he upgraded some of it, maybe.
> 
> Devil is always in the detail, learn how to investigate before you think you have knowledge.



Surely, you jest.
Clearly, there is a new steel fence with airflow replacing the old chicken wire.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> Surely, you jest.
> Clearly, there is a new steel fence with airflow replacing the old chicken wire.



No I do not gest, Chump is a Chump, so prove me wrong, show me the upgrades, but we started with he hasn't built a wall, to he has upgraded a wall, to he has replaced the chicken wire, all of it you cannot show or provide data on.

It is okay, I will pay for you to go to Chump University, it might help you


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Since inauguration, they've built almost 400m of wall a day. That's a lot of no wall
> 
> Check you facts, it is in the detail, he revamped some existing wall and built a little bit more. Hardly a great wall.
> 
> So there is a slight difference between building a wall(new) and a renovation.



Did you see the existing wall?

Here is all the info with pictures of existing wall to the new wall. There is a huge difference.

https://www.trumpwall.construction


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> No I do not gest, Chump is a Chump, so prove me wrong, show me the upgrades, but we started with he hasn't built a wall, to he has upgraded a wall, to he has replaced the chicken wire, all of it you cannot show or provide data on.
> 
> It is okay, I will pay for you to go to Chump University, it might help you



It would appear I haven't made my sarcastic tone in previous posts evident.
Where there was old, degraded, penetrable sections of the wall on the border. The Trump admin has built a new wall, sometime replacing the old wall, sometimes leaving the old wall and building adjacent to it.
Some of the old wall was barbed wire fence, some galv sheets, and some a more substantial wall. But all of it is now 9m tall.
That's it. 
Also, I'm being generous with the 400m/day because construction did not begin with his inauguration, it began over a year later.
Quite an achievement.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Are you aware just how , HOW smelly the "Biden Laptop" story is ?
> Are you aware that Fox News wouldn't run it because  of "Credibility concerns" . Essentially it was clearly unverifiable and dodgy ?
> Did you know that The New York Post journalists refused to put their name on the story because it  had no credibility?




Fbi has confirmed it wasn't Russian disinformation. Its been reported on fox and others. It's not being reported by Biden friendly media.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> It would appear I haven't made my sarcastic tone in previous posts evident.
> Where there was old, degraded, penetrable sections of the wall on the border. The Trump admin has built a new wall, sometime replacing the old wall, sometimes leaving the old wall and building adjacent to it.
> Some of the old wall was barbed wire fence, some galv sheets, and some a more substantial wall. But all of it is now 9m tall.
> That's it.
> Also, I'm being generous with the 400m/day because construction did not begin with his inauguration, it began over a year later.
> Quite an achievement.
> View attachment 113446



You show a couple of meters of wall, the whole idea of the wall did not address the fundamental issue why people want to climb/dig under it.

GO Chump for Spooly, he believes you.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Fbi has confirmed it wasn't Russian disinformation. Its been reported on fox and others. It's not being reported by Biden friendly media.



Please provide some credible evidence to your statement, are you really that stupid. FBI hasn't confirmed it is evidence that it just didn't come from the Russians.

Humans has not advanced that far in the last 1000 years have we.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Please provide some credible evidence to your statement, are you really that stupid. FBI hasn't confirmed it is evidence that it just didn't come from the Russians.
> 
> Humans has not advanced that far in the last 1000 years have we.



Provide evidence it came from the Russians. 

And it was the dni not fbi.

Fbi investigating now after sitting on it for God knows how long.

Hey I'm not the guy supporting a crackhead.


----------



## Junior

What benefits has this wall provided to the great USA?  Their economy is in a far worse position than it was, when Trump inherited it, on every major measure.

You can go under, around, and over a wall.  You can get on a plane, or a boat, or simply pass through the many gates as 1,000s of folk do every day.  It was an archaic exercise in the first place, and like everything Trump does, fuels anger and division.


----------



## spooly74

basilio said:


> Are you aware just how , HOW smelly the "Biden Laptop" story is ?


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Did you see the existing wall?
> 
> Here is all the info with pictures of existing wall to the new wall. There is a huge difference.
> 
> https://www.trumpwall.construction



Really, that must be an official, government site. Talk about being manipulated.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


>




Chumps Lawyer hands over a hard drive that may or may not belong to Bidens son, time for me to become a lawyer, so little evidence but lots of hearsay. 

When is clean cut Chump going to show his tax returns?


----------



## spooly74

satanoperca said:


> Chumps Lawyer hands over a hard drive that may or may not belong to Bidens son, time for me to become a lawyer, so little evidence but lots of hearsay.
> 
> When is clean cut Chump going to show his tax returns?



Sit tight then and we'll see. 
Would have thought Sleepy or crackhead Hunter would deny it. Strange that their lawyer wanted it returned.

As for providing his tax returns, presumably when it becomes a requirement by law.


----------



## satanoperca

spooly74 said:


> As for providing his tax returns, presumably when it becomes a requirement by law.




You cannot claim you are draining the swamp if you are unwilling to show that you are not the swamp itself.


----------



## spooly74

spooly74 said:


>


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Really, that must be an official, government site. Talk about being manipulated.



There is in fact a wall. And you wanted stats. I'm sorry, to many stats now? Obviously the mere sight of the glorious, (best ever wall) made you retreat into emasculation.

So now you lying for Biden?

What happened to Truth, Integrity, and beers at 11am?

You slurping  with the chai latte crowd now? 
For brunch, debating intersectional identities and gender pronouns?

I have taken the time to put the above into chart with hard data as proof:

Satan's rise into tds propaganda.


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> There is in fact a wall. And you wanted stats. I'm sorry, to many stats now? Obviously the mere sight of the glorious, (best ever wall) made you retreat into emasculation.
> 
> So now you lying for Biden?
> 
> What happened to Truth, Integrity, and beers at 11am?
> 
> You slurping  with the chai latte crowd now?
> For brunch, debating intersectional identities and gender pronouns?
> 
> I have taken the time to put the above into chart with hard data as proof:
> 
> Satan's rise into tds propaganda.




Classic.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> There is in fact a wall. And you wanted stats. I'm sorry, to many stats now? Obviously the mere sight of the glorious, (best ever wall) made you retreat into emasculation.
> 
> So now you lying for Biden?
> 
> What happened to Truth, Integrity, and beers at 11am?
> 
> You slurping  with the chai latte crowd now?
> For brunch, debating intersectional identities and gender pronouns?
> 
> I have taken the time to put the above into chart with hard data as proof:
> 
> Satan's rise into tds propaganda.




Firstly came down, to make it easy for you to understand.

"There is in fact a wall. And you wanted stats. I'm sorry, to many stats now? Obviously the mere sight of the glorious, (best ever wall) made you retreat into emasculation. " 
Wow you reference a site that could be real or fact, but is has no domain authority and it not a gov or org site and believe, it, talk about being a sucker.

"So now you lying for Biden?" I can see why you support Chump, similar minds think alike, you just make crap up.

"What happened to Truth, Integrity, and beers at 11am?" You sure you are okay?

"You slurping  with the chai latte crowd now?" Firstly, I drink only short black coffee and secondly, you getting a little upset.

Like you cat, but I am bald.

Could I recommend going for a walk, I have done my days fishing, bag is full.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Firstly came down, to make it easy for you to understand.
> 
> "There is in fact a wall. And you wanted stats. I'm sorry, to many stats now? Obviously the mere sight of the glorious, (best ever wall) made you retreat into emasculation. "
> Wow you reference a site that could be real or fact, but is has no domain authority and it not a gov or org site and believe, it, talk about being a sucker.
> 
> "So now you lying for Biden?" I can see why you support Chump, similar minds think alike, you just make crap up.
> 
> "What happened to Truth, Integrity, and beers at 11am?" You sure you are okay?
> 
> "You slurping  with the chai latte crowd now?" Firstly, I drink only short black coffee and secondly, you getting a little upset.
> 
> Like you cat, but I am bald.
> 
> Could I recommend going for a walk, I have done my days fishing, bag is full.




I'm just playing.

I just want the election done so we can get back to complaining about local politicians. I feel Trump has let them go unnoticed.


----------



## basilio

Few interesting observations about other news re Trump, the election and the US.

*The US has seen nearly 300,000 excess deaths since late January, *according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC said 299,028 excess deaths occurred in the US between January 26 and October 3.  This is on top of the official COVID death toll of 220,00.

But of course according Trump everthing is going swimmingly as far as getting on top of this health and economic crisis.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Few interesting observations about other news re Trump, the election and the US.
> 
> *The US has seen nearly 300,000 excess deaths since late January, *according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC said 299,028 excess deaths occurred in the US between January 26 and October 3.  This is on top of the official COVID death toll of 220,00.
> 
> But of course according Trump everthing is going swimmingly as far as getting on top of this health and economic crisis.



Do we have a state breakdown of where all those deaths occurred?


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Do we have a state breakdown of where all those deaths occurred?



How does this matter, Chump man f---kd up and could have been more responsible, or might have had some intelligence towards this situation.

You keep defending a lier!


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> How does this matter, Chump man f---kd up and could have been more responsible, or might have had some intelligence towards this situation.
> 
> You keep defending a lier!



States are in control of a lot of decisions.


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> States are in control of a lot of decisions.



WTF, really, so your argument is what? You are full of sh----t.


----------



## spooly74

basilio said:


> Few interesting observations about other news re Trump



I noticed one today.
The vote to confirm Amy Barret to the Supreme Court will now take place on the 26th October. Hillary Clinton’s Birthday.

Also, an interesting fact not many know. Every President elect gets to decorate the Oval Office. 
Trump decided not to waste money on new curtains and had the set Hillary chose for Willy re-installed.

That must still boil her piss.
😂


----------



## basilio

So on the  issue of the COVID crisis Trump, incredibly, has decided to publicly attack Dr Fauci and ridicule his experience and leadership on tackling COVID. According to Trump he, Gods gift to teh US, has done a magnificent job overseeing this pesky irritant of a nasty flu that has only  officially killed 220,000 people and still rising while the boring old scientific xart is is a useless baseball pitcher.









						The facts behind Trump's attacks on Fauci
					

As the coronavirus pandemic worsens in the U.S., President Trump continues to attack the man who for months was the administration’s go-to authority on the disease, Dr. Anthony Fauci.




					news.yahoo.com
				











						Senate Republicans try to ignore Trump's attacks on Fauci | AP News
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump’s pre-election broadsides against <a href="https://apnews...




					apnews.com
				











						Analysis: Attacking Anthony Fauci is Donald Trump's dumbest closing message
					

To those people who (still) insist that President Donald Trump is a political mastermind operating five moves ahead of his Democratic opponent and the media, please allow me to present you with Monday.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## IFocus

Trump and his behaviour regarding masks is indefensible, he will have blood on his hands over that alone.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> WTF, really, so your argument is what? You are full of sh----t.



New York: Cuomo left infected in nursing homes. There were additional stuff ups that killed thousands.

It would be interesting to see a state by state break down. Did dems drag the ball when it came to tackling covid? 
Or are the numbers similar across all states.


----------



## basilio

And in yet another boringly familiar story* yet another Trump  fundraiser* has pleaded guilty to operating as an unregistered foreign official.   Lobbying for  Malaysian and Chinese interests.
If one wants to see true, documented  super corruption at the heart of the Trump administration check out the link below.

*Trump fundraiser pleads guilty to operating as an unregistered foreign agent*

*Elliott Broidy*, a major fundraiser for Republicans and Trump has pleaded guilty to a rare charge of conspiring to violate the Foreign Agents Registration Act.
Broidy was charged with working on behalf of Malaysian and Chinese interests, accepting millions of dollars to lobby the Trump administration. Trump associates Paul Manafort and Rick Gates were also prosecuted based on their foreign lobbying.
“Elliott Broidy sought to lobby the highest levels of the U.S. government to drop one of the largest fraud and money laundering prosecutions ever brought and to deport a critic of the Chinese Communist Party, all the while concealing the foreign interests whose bidding he was doing,” Assistant Attorney General John Demers wrote in a statement.









						Coronavirus economic relief talks resume as McConnell reportedly offers resistance - as it happened
					

House speaker says she’s ‘optimistic’ about reaching a deal because Democrats and the White House both want to ‘crush the virus’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

And finally. Just to make it absolutely xucking clear that *nothing* Trump says should ever be believed  without  independent evidence consider this little gem.

7/ *Trump told White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows that he didn’t mean it literally when he tweeted he had “fully authorized the total Declassification” of documents related to the Russia investigation and Hillary Clinton’s emails*.
“The president indicated to me that his statements on Twitter were not self-executing declassification orders and do not require the declassification or release of any particular documents,” Meadows said in a sworn court statement. The statement comes after a judge asked why the Trump tweets appeared to be in direct opposition to the White House’s position not to declassify the Russia records. (CNN / NBC News / Axios)









						Biden News Today
					

Today’s essential guide to the daily shock and awe in national politics. Read in moderation.




					whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com


----------



## basilio

A few more issues that perhaps could be of more interest ina discussion on policies, programs and ethics in government.


3/ *The Health and Human Services department’s general counsel warned that Trump’s plan to give seniors $200 discount cards to buy prescription drugs could violate election law*. Robert Charrow said in a memo that the timing and design of the $7.9 billion plan could invite legal challenges over inappropriately using federal funds so close to the election. Trump administration officials have instructed Charrow and his office to seek approval from the Department of Justice before moving forward with the drug-discount plan. (Politico)


*The Government Accountability Office will investigate whether the Trump administration interfered with the coronavirus response at the CDC and FDA*. The GAO will “review whether the CDC and FDA’s scientific integrity and communications policies have been violated and whether those policies are being implemented as intended to assure scientific integrity.” (Politico)









						Day 1369
					

“An absence of national leadership.”




					whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com


----------



## basilio

4/ *A federal judge blocked the Trump administration’s plan to strip food stamps from nearly 700,000 jobless Americans, calling it “arbitrary and capricious.”* 
The Agriculture Department had been “icily silent” about how many Americans would have been denied Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits had the changes been in effect during the pandemic, Chief Judge Beryl Howell said. (CNN / Axios) 








						Day 1369
					

“An absence of national leadership.”




					whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com


----------



## basilio

8/ *A federal grand jury charged six Russian military intelligence officers in connection with major hacks worldwide*, including the French election, the Winter Olympics, and U.S. hospitals and businesses. Known as the GRU, the hacking unit has previously been linked to *the hacking and interference operations during the 2016 election. *(Wall Street Journal / New York Times / Politico / Associated Press) 









						Day 1369
					

“An absence of national leadership.”




					whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com


----------



## basilio

And finally.. Just to full appreciate  how this President has milked the US taxpayer (which he is clearly not) for all it's worth whilst in office - and them refuses to be accountable for his actions.

*The State Department has about 450 pages of records showing government spending at Trump’s properties, but it will release only two of those pages before the November election*.
The State Department pays for hotel rooms and other expenses when foreign leaders visit Trump properties, as well as when federal employees follow Trump and his family to Trump’s overseas clubs. (Washington Post)









						Day 1369
					

“An absence of national leadership.”




					whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com


----------



## moXJO

Peddling pretty hard bas


----------



## basilio

moXJO said:


> Peddling pretty hard bas




Indeed. But I suggest each and every issue I have raised represent  relevant  facts that go to the heart of the Trump Presidencies malfeasance, incompetence, meanness and stupidity in government. Yet these are just a couple of days stories in this whole sorry saga.

The only diversion  left that  the Trump campaign can offer to distract from these realities is a bare  faced Biden /Hunter farce concocted by a bunch of crackhead Russian hackers and shrilly fed to  a Trump base that is desperately trying to believe Trump is indeed the leader of the best of all possible worlds.


----------



## basilio

How about a bit more reality testing on the Great New Jobs programs promised by the Worlds Greatest Con Artist ?
Worth a read  ?


*'It's all fake': Trump's manufacturing jobs promises ring hollow in midwest*
Workers are feeling abandoned and betrayed after promises on the campaign trail to boost factory jobs fell woefully short








						'It's all fake': Trump's manufacturing jobs promises ring hollow in midwest
					

Workers are feeling abandoned and betrayed after promises on the campaign trail to boost factory jobs fell woefully short




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Indeed. But I suggest each and every issue I have raised represent  relevant  facts that go to the heart of the Trump Presidencies malfeasance, incompetence, meanness and stupidity in government. Yet these are just a couple of days stories in this whole sorry saga.
> 
> The only diversion  left that  the Trump campaign can offer to distract from these realities is a bare  faced Biden /Hunter farce concocted by a bunch of crackhead Russian hackers and shrilly fed to  a Trump base that is desperately trying to believe Trump is indeed the leader of the best of all possible worlds.




I fail to see how this is any different from the Atlantic story that came out a couple of weeks ago. Where Trump allegedly insulted passed ww2 soldiers.

The photos are of Hunter who is a known drug user already.
The emails are being investigated along with the other allegations. Lets see where it goes. The finders story stinks, but the data seems real. 

But let's see where it goes. Let's face it, if certain parts of the story are true then Biden is done. 

You pushed hard on numerous occasions with anonymous sources that ended up being debunked by the people that were there.
Even that kid that was accused of racism, who was setup by editing and then proven innocent.

Or the farce of a witch hunt when they were swearing in that judge.

Now the shoe is on the other foot and I've never seen such back peddling and diversion.


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> Trump base that is desperately trying to believe Trump is indeed the leader of the best of all possible worlds.



There are the true believers. Then there are those that want to burn down the corruption of politicians that have been entrenched in the system for decades. Only took a delusional lunatic to do it.


----------



## DB008

I think Trumpy has done ok with the wall. Considering the old wall...

New v Old below


----------



## dutchie

You can say what you like about Trump but he loves his country and always puts it first.
On the other hand the Democrats hate their country and put their own interests first.


----------



## moXJO

Regardless I still see Trump losing this election off the figures. And while Trumps supporters are more energised. I don't think we will see a rerun of 2016. Hillary was a different beast, with multiple scandals. The polls are different this time around as well.

I think Biden will take enough battle ground states to win. Then the punishment of Republicans will commence.

But then I'm  0 for 5 in the last predictions of various events (Brexit, British election, Scomo etc).


----------



## DB008

l'm predicting the opposite moXJO - Trump will get in.


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> l'm predicting the opposite moXJO - Trump will get in.



Well my track record is terrible.
I hope not though. I can't take another 4 years of this thread.


----------



## Knobby22

Can you imagine if I had a secret Chinese bank account when I was running for re-election? "You think Fox News would have something to say about that?? They would have called me Bejing Barry.""
- Obama re Trumps secret (now not so secret) Chinese Bank account.


----------



## dutchie

Trump very Presidential, slaughtered Biden in the debate.

"Trump brought his A game"


----------



## Knobby22

dutchie said:


> Trump very Presidential, slaughtered Biden in the debate.
> 
> "Trump brought his A game"



Big win to Trump on Fox, big win to Biden on CNN.
Difference it will make to the election result- very little.


----------



## sptrawler

The only conclusion I can make from all the debate on this forum is, if Trump wins the media is finished, it will just absolutely destroy their credibility on the basis of influence.
When is the election.


----------



## DB008

Tuesday 3rd Nov

sp - the issue is Facebook/Twitter are now turning in publishers, censoring stories. This is where it gets complicated.

Jimmy Dore explains it below. I'll try to time stamp it so it starts around the 2:50 mark where Jimmy Dore explains it

​


----------



## Knobby22

Has Melania Trump got long Covid?


----------



## bellenuit

Knobby22 said:


> Has Melania Trump got long Covid?




Make of this what you will. The close up of the teeth towards the bottom of the article would seem to suggest a double unless they were photoshopped.





__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.dailymercury.com.au


----------



## DB008

MSN so against Trump.


----------



## Knobby22

bellenuit said:


> Make of this what you will. The close up of the teeth towards the bottom of the article would seem to suggest a double unless they were photoshopped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Cookies | The Courier Mail
> 
> 
> No Cookies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymercury.com.au




Fascinating, wouldn't look good for the Don to admit his wife isn't recovering well and suffering long term side effects.
Could also be that she can't stand the sight of him.


----------



## DB008

*Rex Murphy: Suppressing the Biden stories is a journalistic crime
of historic proportions*


*It is an exhibition of blatant and massive bias during the exercise of the most central event of every democracy — the election
of its leaders*​

As I write it is now the seventh day — and a bare two weeks till the presidential vote — that Twitter, Facebook and their co-operative partners in the television networks and mainline newspapers have smothered or refused to print or broadcast the devastating reports concerning the dealings of Hunter Biden and his father, presidential candidate Joe Biden.​​The suppression of a major, no, an explosive and potentially result-changing news story by 90 per cent of the establishment media, is a journalistic crime.​​It is an exhibition of blatant, undeniable and massive bias during the exercise of the most central event of every democracy — the election of its leaders. A great swathe of the media of the United States is deliberately — by refusing to exercise its proper function, and by acting as guardian and accessory to the campaign of its favourite, Mr. Biden — nullifying its purpose, wrecking its prestige and standing with the public, and practicing the single largest dereliction of its democratic function since the founding of the republic.​​All under the specious, hollow anti-morality of “If it hurts Donald Trump, it is not only justifiable, but righteous.”​​A child of five, or the mute beasts of the field would find tongue to tell you that if some equally potentially damaging story placed Donald Trump Jr. in its crosshairs and implicated _his_ father, it would be crowding the screens of Facebook and Twitter; the Washington Post and the New York Times would have exhausted the nation’s supply of newsprint with special and interminable reports of its every minutiae; and television’s main talking-heads would be choking with the zeal to report it and damnify Trump.​​Speaking of the Washington Post, recall its so sanctimonious motto: Democracy dies in darkness. Two weeks before a presidential election, the Washington Post and its rigorous editors have turned off the lights.​​Should anyone want something of an honest, independent and clear view of what is happening, turn to the recent utterances of Jonathan Turley, a legal scholar, professor at George Washington University Law School, and frequent witness at U.S. Congressional proceedings about constitutional and statutory issues.​​Prof. Turley is NOT a Trump supporter. He is something far more significant and singular in these partisan-insane times — a fair and intelligent mind. Here’s just a few of his observations — which up until recent days would be the views of everyone with the slightest understanding of democracy and a free press:​​“… The companies’ actions are an outrageous example of open censorship and bias. It shows how companies effectively can become state media working for one party.​​“… The point is that free speech allows us to call out those who say false or reckless things without Twitter engaging in private censorship. As soon as these companies embraced censorship, it put social media on the slippery slope of biased and selective speech controls.​​“… Despite a letter (signed by) dozens of former officials saying this is Russian disinformation, _the FBI reportedly has confirmed that it has the laptop and it is not Russian disinformation”_ (my emphasis).​​There are others of equal standing making the same points. I’d add a few of my own. Where are the journalism schools and their mentor-professors? Why are they not howling in outrage at a canonical violation of the standards of objectivity and fair-dealing, the hallmarks of an independent press?​


More on link below...

Suppressing the Biden stories is a journalistic crime of historic proportions


.​


----------



## Knobby22

Come on. There's no story. No facts, no evidence.
Want to talk about the Russians?








						Former FBI Agent Says Trump Is 'Compromised' By Russia
					

Former FBI agent Peter Strzok talks about his new book, "Compromised: Counterintelligence and the Threat of Donald J. Trump."




					www.wbur.org


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Come on. There's no story. No facts, no evidence.
> Want to talk about the Russians?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former FBI Agent Says Trump Is 'Compromised' By Russia
> 
> 
> Former FBI agent Peter Strzok talks about his new book, "Compromised: Counterintelligence and the Threat of Donald J. Trump."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wbur.org



Umm this is the guy that was having an affair and text her how they would bring down Trump isn't it?

Was he reprimanded? I can't remember or be bothered checking. The Russian collusion was bs.


----------



## IFocus

Its looking like Trump exhaustion and the US possibly moving on, after Trumps behaviour I think Biden could start shooting people and he could still possibly get in.


----------



## DB008

IFocus said:


> Its looking like Trump exhaustion and the US possibly moving on, after Trumps behaviour I think Biden could start shooting people and he could still possibly get in.




I disagree. From the mobile phone video footage l've seen, the Trump supporters are gaining traction. If anything, they are going up a gear.

Did you see the recent Biden rallys? Total washout. Some of the Biden rallys turn into Trump rallys.

​



A vote for Biden, is really a vote for Harris. Biden has dementia. He called Trump 'George' in an interview yesterday. Couldn't even remember Obama's name the other week. If Biden gets in, he'll leave within a year or two and hand it over to Harris.


----------



## basilio

Always some new Firsts in the US.
Now openly long time  conservative news media are backing Biden against Trump based on
1) Trumps  demonstrated unsuitability to be President
2) Biden at least looks as if he can do the job (even if he is a Democrat)









						Conservative New Hampshire paper backs Biden: 'Trump is 100% wrong for America'
					

Paper printed editorial supporting a Democrat for the first time in more than 100 years on same day president visited the state




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008

This picture sums it up....


----------



## basilio

Correction.  The Placard should read 
.........................................................................*Our Free Lies*


----------



## dutchie

basilio said:


> Correction.  The Placard should read
> .........................................................................*Our Free Lies*



??????


----------



## satanoperca

What is ironic about that image, is they are all US companies, who are denying the speak or freedom of expression, what the hell has China got to do with it.
What I feel even more ironic, is Chump uses Tweeter as his own national broadcaster, maybe he should by it.


----------



## DB008

Probably more to do with the censoring of the Hunter Biden story


----------



## bellenuit




----------



## DB008

bellenuit - good.

He's cleaning out the house (ie, corrupt officials).



*Executive Order on Creating Schedule F In The Excepted Service*​
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 3301, 3302, and 7511 of title 5, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows:​​Section 1. Policy. To effectively carry out the broad array of activities assigned to the executive branch under law, the President and his appointees must rely on men and women in the Federal service employed in positions of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character. Faithful execution of the law requires that the President have appropriate management oversight regarding this select cadre of professionals.​​The Federal Government benefits from career professionals in positions that are not normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition but who discharge significant duties and exercise significant discretion in formulating and implementing executive branch policy and programs under the laws of the United States. The heads of executive departments and agencies (agencies) and the American people also entrust these career professionals with non‑public information that must be kept confidential.​​With the exception of attorneys in the Federal service who are appointed pursuant to Schedule A of the excepted service and members of the Senior Executive Service, appointments to these positions are generally made through the competitive service. Given the importance of the functions they discharge, employees in such positions must display appropriate temperament, acumen, impartiality, and sound judgment.​​Due to these requirements, agencies should have a greater degree of appointment flexibility with respect to these employees than is afforded by the existing competitive service process.​​Further, effective performance management of employees in confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating positions is of the utmost importance. Unfortunately, the Government’s current performance management is inadequate, as recognized by Federal workers themselves. For instance, the 2016 Merit Principles Survey reveals that less than a quarter of Federal employees believe their agency addresses poor performers effectively.​​Separating employees who cannot or will not meet required performance standards is important, and it is particularly important with regard to employees in confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating positions. High performance by such employees can meaningfully enhance agency operations, while poor performance can significantly hinder them. Senior agency officials report that poor performance by career employees in policy-relevant positions has resulted in long delays and substandard-quality work for important agency projects, such as drafting and issuing regulations.​​Pursuant to my authority under section 3302(1) of title 5, United States Code, I find that conditions of good administration make necessary an exception to the competitive hiring rules and examinations for career positions in the Federal service of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character. These conditions include the need to provide agency heads with additional flexibility to assess prospective appointees without the limitations imposed by competitive service selection procedures. Placing these positions in the excepted service will mitigate undue limitations on their selection. This action will also give agencies greater ability and discretion to assess critical qualities in applicants to fill these positions, such as work ethic, judgment, and ability to meet the particular needs of the agency. These are all qualities individuals should have before wielding the authority inherent in their prospective positions, and agencies should be able to assess candidates without proceeding through complicated and elaborate competitive service processes or rating procedures that do not necessarily reflect their particular needs.​​Conditions of good administration similarly make necessary excepting such positions from the adverse action procedures set forth in chapter 75 of title 5, United States Code. Chapter 75 of title 5, United States Code, requires agencies to comply with extensive procedures before taking adverse action against an employee. These requirements can make removing poorly performing employees difficult. Only a quarter of Federal supervisors are confident that they could remove a poor performer. Career employees in confidential, policy-determining, policy‑making, and policy-advocating positions wield significant influence over Government operations and effectiveness. Agencies need the flexibility to expeditiously remove poorly performing employees from these positions without facing extensive delays or litigation.​​Sec. 2. Definition. The phrase “normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition” refers to positions whose occupants are, as a matter of practice, expected to resign upon a Presidential transition and includes all positions whose appointment requires the assent of the White House Office of Presidential Personnel.​​Sec. 3. Excepted Service. Appointments of individuals to positions of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character that are not normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition shall be made under Schedule F of the excepted service, as established by section 4 of this order.​​Sec. 4. Schedule F of the Excepted Service. (a) Civil Service Rule VI is amended as follows:​​(i) 5 CFR 6.2 is amended to read:
“OPM shall list positions that it excepts from the competitive service in Schedules A, B, C, D, E, and F, which schedules shall constitute parts of this rule, as follows:​​Schedule A. Positions other than those of a confidential or policy-determining character for which it is not practicable to examine shall be listed in Schedule A.​​Schedule B. Positions other than those of a confidential or policy-determining character for which it is not practicable to hold a competitive examination shall be listed in Schedule B. Appointments to these positions shall be subject to such noncompetitive examination as may be prescribed by OPM.​​Schedule C. Positions of a confidential or policy-determining character normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition shall be listed in Schedule C.​​Schedule D. Positions other than those of a confidential or policy-determining character for which the competitive service requirements make impracticable the adequate recruitment of sufficient numbers of students attending qualifying educational institutions or individuals who have recently completed qualifying educational programs. These positions, which are temporarily placed in the excepted service to enable more effective recruitment from all segments of society by using means of recruiting and assessing candidates that diverge from the rules generally applicable to the competitive service, shall be listed in Schedule D.​​Schedule E. Position of administrative law judge appointed under 5 U.S.C. 3105. Conditions of good administration warrant that the position of administrative law judge be placed in the excepted service and that appointment to this position not be subject to the requirements of 5 CFR, part 302, including examination and rating requirements, though each agency shall follow the principle of veteran preference as far as administratively feasible.​​Schedule F. Positions of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character not normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition shall be listed in Schedule F. In appointing an individual to a position in Schedule F, each agency shall follow the principle of veteran preference as far as administratively feasible.”​​(ii) 5 CFR 6.4 is amended to read:
“Except as required by statute, the Civil Service Rules and Regulations shall not apply to removals from positions listed in Schedules A, C, D, E, or F, or from positions excepted from the competitive service by statute. The Civil Service Rules and Regulations shall apply to removals from positions listed in Schedule B of persons who have competitive status.”​​(b) The Director of the Office of Personnel Management (Director) shall:​​(i) adopt such regulations as the Director determines may be necessary to implement this order, including, as appropriate, amendments to or rescissions of regulations that are inconsistent with, or that would impede the implementation of, this order, giving particular attention to 5 CFR, part 212, subpart D; 5 CFR, part 213, subparts A and C; and 5 CFR 302.101; and​​(ii) provide guidance on conducting a swift, orderly transition from existing appointment processes to the Schedule F process established by this order.​​Sec. 5. Agency Actions. (a) Each head of an executive agency (as defined in section 105 of title 5, United States Code, but excluding the Government Accountability Office) shall conduct, within 90 days of the date of this order, a preliminary review of agency positions covered by subchapter II of chapter 75 of title 5, United States Code, and shall conduct a complete review of such positions within 210 days of the date of this order. Thereafter, each agency head shall conduct a review of agency positions covered by subchapter II of chapter 75 of title 5, United States Code, on at least an annual basis. Following such reviews each agency head shall:​​(i) for positions not excepted from the competitive service by statute, petition the Director to place in Schedule F any such competitive service, Schedule A, Schedule B, or Schedule D positions within the agency that the agency head determines to be of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character and that are not normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition. Any such petition shall include a written explanation documenting the basis for the agency head’s determination that such position should be placed in Schedule F; and​​(ii) for positions excepted from the competitive service by statute, determine which such positions are of a confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character and are not normally subject to change as a result of a Presidential transition. The agency head shall publish this determination in the Federal Register. Such positions shall be considered Schedule F positions for the purposes of agency actions under sections 5(d) and 6 of this order.​​(b) The requirements set forth in subsection (a) of this section shall apply to currently existing positions and newly created positions.​​(c) When conducting the review required by subsection (a) of this section, each agency head should give particular consideration to the appropriateness of either petitioning the Director to place in Schedule F or including in the determination published in the Federal Register, as applicable, positions whose duties include the following:​​(i) substantive participation in the advocacy for or development or formulation of policy, especially:​​(A) substantive participation in the development or drafting of regulations and guidance; or​​(B) substantive policy-related work in an agency or agency component that primarily focuses on policy;​​(ii) the supervision of attorneys;​​(iii) substantial discretion to determine the manner in which the agency exercises functions committed to the agency by law;​​(iv) viewing, circulating, or otherwise working with proposed regulations, guidance, executive orders, or other non-public policy proposals or deliberations generally covered by deliberative process privilege and either:​​(A) directly reporting to or regularly working with an individual appointed by either the President or an agency head who is paid at a rate not less than that earned by employees at Grade 13 of the General Schedule; or​​(B) working in the agency or agency component executive secretariat (or equivalent); or​​(v) conducting, on the agency’s behalf, collective bargaining negotiations under chapter 71 of title 5, United States Code.​​(d) The Director shall promptly determine whether to grant any petition under subsection (a) of this section. Not later than December 31 of each year, the Director shall report to the President, through the Director of the Office of Management and Budget and the Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy, concerning the number of petitions granted and denied for that year for each agency.​​(e) Each agency head shall, as necessary and appropriate, expeditiously petition the Federal Labor Relations Authority to determine whether any Schedule F position must be excluded from a collective bargaining unit under section 7112(b) of title 5, United States Code, paying particular attention to the question of whether incumbents in such positions are required or authorized to formulate, determine, or influence the policies of the agency.​​Sec. 6. Prohibited Personnel Practices Prohibited. Agencies shall establish rules to prohibit the same personnel practices prohibited by section 2302(b) of title 5, United States Code, with respect to any employee or applicant for employment in Schedule F of the excepted service.​​Sec. 7. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:​​(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or​​(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.​​(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.​​(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.​​(d) If any provision of this order, or the application of any provision to any person or circumstances, is held to be invalid, the remainder of this order and the application of any of its other provisions to any other persons or circumstances shall not be affected thereby.​​(e) Nothing in this order shall be construed to limit or narrow the positions that are or may be listed in Schedule C.​​DONALD J. TRUMP​​THE WHITE HOUSE,
October 21, 2020.​

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...e-order-creating-schedule-f-excepted-service/​



The FBI isn't doing its job properly.

They had the laptop since last year, with potential pedofile material and did nothing about it.








One poster said this:


_The executive order points out the simple truth that executive branch jobs that deal directly with policy are political by nature._​​_Since POTUS is the unitary head of the executive branch, it has never made sense for civil servants who hold these political jobs and report up to POTUS to have protections allowing them to run policy contrary to what POTUS wants._​​​​_ ._​


----------



## basilio

This story outlines the financial issues  Trump faces if he loses the election.









						What is at stake for Donald Trump? It’s certainly not just the election | Arwa Mahdawi
					

The ‘brilliant’ businessman must repay more than $400m within four years. Next week’s vote could determine whether he can, writes Arwa Mahdawi




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio

Came across another story which analyses Trumps financial dealings. One point stuck out like the proverbial dogs balls.


*Who does Trump owe hundreds of millions of dollars to? *

He has personally guaranteed $421 million in debt. We know some information about it.


....  The Washington Post’s David Fahrenthold has reported that, between 2006 and 2014, Trump made a major change in the way he did business: He started dropping large amounts of cash to buy and develop certain properties, rather than relying on loans. Most notably, Trump bought and renovated a golf course in Turnberry, Scotland, for over $200 million — for which he paid entirely in cash.

The Trumps have claimed they simply had the cash on hand for this. But the New Yorker’s Adam Davidson doesn’t buy it.

“The portfolio of assets that Trump owns does not suggest that he would have so much money that he can casually spend a few hundred million on a whim,” Davidson wrote in 2018.

“There simply isn’t enough money coming into Trump’s known business to cover the massive outlay he spent on Turnberry.” Davidson has gone on to suggest that Trump’s expensive purchases like this may truly have been “on behalf of others” — that he was laundering money for some shady wealthy foreigners.








						Who does Trump owe hundreds of millions of dollars to?
					

He has personally guaranteed $421 million in debt. We know some information about it.




					www.vox.com


----------



## satanoperca

If he has nothing to hide, he would simply supply his tax returns and clear up this matter once and for all.


----------



## DB008

​


Hmm....


----------



## satanoperca

All trump supporters, put your hands up and I will get you one of these


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> All trump supporters, put your hands up and I will get you one of these



Why?
 Didn't it fit you or something?


----------



## dutchie

moXJO said:


> Why?
> Didn't it fit you or something?



LOL


----------



## satanoperca

Can have it reprinted, for you
Women support moxJO and for you dutchie, women support "Dickh..ds" undersigned "Dutchie"


----------



## satanoperca

@dutchie lets look at some simple figures, it is a share forum after all.

USA world population 4.25%
Percentage of deaths from Covid in the US as a % > 20%. Go Chump, keep killing Americans as it will "Just disappear". He has immunity until he is put in jail.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> @dutchie lets look at some simple figures, it is a share forum after all.
> 
> USA world population 4.25%
> Percentage of deaths from Covid in the US as a % > 20%. Go Chump, keep killing Americans as it will "Just disappear". He has immunity until he is put in jail.



Dude,  are those figures right. Its 270000 or something deaths.

Deaths as a % of population is .069% or something?


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Can have it reprinted, for you
> Women support moxJO and for you dutchie, women support "Dickh..ds" undersigned "Dutchie"



I'll totally wear that. I'd probably wear dutchies as well..... I'll take you Trump one as well.


----------



## wabullfrog

moXJO said:


> Dude,  are those figures right. Its 270000 or something deaths.
> 
> Deaths as a % of population is .069% or something?





Percentage of total Covid deaths worldwide, not the percentage of the US population that has died from Covid.


----------



## moXJO

wabullfrog said:


> Percentage of total Covid deaths worldwide, not the percentage of the US population that has died from Covid.



Ahhh that's why it was so high.


----------



## satanoperca

World Deaths from Covid 1,170,000
USA Deaths from Covid 232,000 
Percentage of USA deaths against world total 20%
USA Population is 4.25% of world population

Chump man is doing a stella job, he is winning, winning, winning. Go for gold, best in the world.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> World Deaths from Covid 1,170,000
> USA Deaths from Covid 232,000
> Percentage of USA deaths against world total 20%
> USA Population is 4.25% of world population
> 
> Chump man is doing a stella job, he is winning, winning, winning. Go for gold, best in the world.



Do you know what % of deaths due to covid for world population off the top of your head?


----------



## basilio

*Trump appointee resigns as a 'matter of conscience' over executive order aimed at civil service*


A Trump appointee tasked with advising the administration on federal civil servants' pay has resigned over his objections to a new executive order that appears to provide the President more leeway in the hiring and firing of federal employees deemed disloyal.
Ronald Sanders, who served as a member and chair of the Federal Salary Council, tendered his resignation on Monday to the director of White House Presidential Personnel, John McEntee, according to a letter obtained by CNN. 

*"On its surface, the President's Executive Order purports to serve a legitimate and laudable purpose ... that is, to hold career Federal employees 'more accountable' for their performance," Sanders wrote. "However, it is clear that its stated purpose notwithstanding, the Executive Order is nothing more than a smokescreen for what is clearly an attempt to require the political loyalty of those who advise the President, or failing that, to enable their removal with little if any due process."*




Trump signs executive order that critics warn politicizes federal career civil service
He added: "I simply cannot be part of an Administration that seeks to do so ... to replace apolitical expertise with political obeisance."
*Sanders, a lifelong Republican and human resources professional who has spent decades in different roles across the federal government, wrote to McEntee that career federal employees "take an oath to preserve and protect our Constitution and the rule of law ... not to be loyal to a particular President or Administration."
The order, he said, "seeks to make loyalty to (the President) the litmus test for many thousands of career civil servants, and that is something I cannot be part of."*









						Trump appointee resigns over executive order aimed at civil service
					

A Trump appointee tasked with advising the administration on federal civil servants' pay has resigned over his objections to a new executive order that appears to provide the President more leeway in the hiring and firing of federal employees deemed disloyal.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## satanoperca

moXJO said:


> Do you know what % of deaths due to covid for world population off the top of your head?



Yes, very, very, very small. 0.00015%
But a well-developed country such as USA should not have so a large % by population of deaths as it has. Chump man got it wrong.


----------



## dutchie

*Good News For Trump – Majority Of Voters Say They Are Better Off Than They Were Four Years Ago*
















						Good News For Trump - Majority Of Voters Say They Are Better Off Than They Were Four Years Ago
					

Donald Trump’s strongest issue has always been the economy and that will serve him well in this election, too. According to a new poll, a majority of voters believe they are better off now than they were four years ago before Trump was elected. That bodes very well for his reelection chances...




					americanlookout.com


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Yes, very, very, very small. 0.00015%
> But a well-developed country such as USA should not have so a large % by population of deaths as it has. Chump man got it wrong.



They are around 10th on the list of deaths per million. This is just a fun way to make stats look worse.


----------



## satanoperca

Figures are figures. 
I agree, it does make things look worse as they are.

Here you go, spot the pattern, USA has done a crap job. Only one other wealthy country has down worse.


----------



## moXJO

satanoperca said:


> Figures are figures.
> I agree, it does make things look worse as they are.
> 
> Here you go, spot the pattern, USA has done a crap job. Only one other wealthy country has down worse.
> View attachment 113913



Got a link to that stat site?


----------



## satanoperca

COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
					

COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.




					www.statista.com


----------



## DB008

This is pretty big news.

Glen Greenwald resigns from The Intercept (he founded) due to media censorship.

This is also significant because he is a liberal (which is left wing in the USA).

Please read his blog below.

Here is a summary on youtube by Tim Pool.







*Article on Joe and Hunter Biden Censored By The Intercept*​
​An attempt to assess the importance of the known evidence, and a critique of media lies to protect their favored candidate, could not be published at The Intercept​​​_I am posting here the most recent draft of my article about Joe and Hunter Biden — the last one seen by Intercept editors before telling me that they refuse to publish it absent major structural changes involving the removal of all sections critical of Joe Biden, leaving only a narrow article critiquing media outlets. I will also, in a separate post, publish all communications I had with Intercept editors surrounding this article so you can see the censorship in action and, given the Intercept’s denials, decide for yourselves (this is the kind of transparency responsible journalists provide, and which the Intercept refuses to this day to provide regarding their conduct in the Reality Winner story). This draft obviously would have gone through one more round of proof-reading and editing by me — to shorten it, fix typos, etc — but it’s important for the integrity of the claims to publish the draft in unchanged form that Intercept editors last saw, and announced that they would not “edit” but completely gut as a condition to publication:_​​​
_*TITLE*: _THE REAL SCANDAL: U.S. MEDIA USES FALSEHOODS TO DEFEND JOE BIDEN FROM HUNTER’S EMAILS​​​*Publication by the* New York Post two weeks ago of emails from Hunter Biden's laptop, relating to Vice President Joe Biden's work in Ukraine, and subsequent articles from other outlets concerning the Biden family's pursuit of business opportunities in China, provoked extraordinary efforts by a _de facto_ union of media outlets, Silicon Valley giants and the intelligence community to suppress these stories.​​One outcome is that the Biden campaign concluded, rationally, that there is no need for the front-running presidential candidate to address even the most basic and relevant questions raised by these materials. Rather than condemn Biden for ignoring these questions -- the natural instinct of a healthy press when it comes to a presidential election -- journalists have instead led the way in concocting excuses to justify his silence.​​After the Post’s first article, both that newspaper and other news outlets have published numerous other emails and texts purportedly written to and from Hunter reflecting his efforts to induce his father to take actions as Vice President beneficial to the Ukrainian energy company Burisma, on whose board of directors Hunter sat for a monthly payment of $50,000, as well as proposals for lucrative business deals in China that traded on his influence with his father.​​Individuals included in some of the email chains have confirmed the contents' authenticity. One of Hunter’s former business partners, Tony Bubolinski, has stepped forward on the record to confirm the authenticity of many of the emails and to insist that Hunter along with Joe Biden's brother Jim were planning on including the former Vice President in at least one deal in China. And GOP pollster Frank Luntz, who appeared in one of the published email chains, appeared to confirm the authenticity as well, though he refused to answer follow-up questions about it.​​Thus far, no proof has been offered by Bubolinski that Biden ever consummated his participation in any of those discussed deals. The Wall Street Journal says that it found no corporate records reflecting that a deal was finalized and that "text messages and emails related to the venture that were provided to the Journal by Mr. Bobulinski, mainly from the spring and summer of 2017, don’t show either Hunter Biden or James Biden discussing a role for Joe Biden in the venture."​​But nobody claimed that any such deals had been consummated -- so the conclusion that one had not been does not negate the story. Moreover, some texts and emails whose authenticity has not been disputed state that Hunter was adamant that any discussions about the involvement of the Vice President be held only verbally and never put in writing.​​Beyond that, the Journal's columnist Kimberly Strassel reviewed a stash of documents and "found correspondence corroborates and expands on emails recently published by the New York Post," including ones where Hunter was insisting that it was his connection to his father that was the greatest asset sought by the Chinese conglomerate with whom they were negotiating. The New York Times on Sunday reached a similar conclusion: while no documents prove that such a deal was consummated, "records produced by Mr. Bobulinski show that in 2017, Hunter Biden and James Biden were involved in negotiations about a joint venture with a Chinese energy and finance company called CEFC China Energy," and "make clear that Hunter Biden saw the family name as a valuable asset, angrily citing his 'family’s brand' as a reason he is valuable to the proposed venture."​​These documents also demonstrate, reported the Times, "that the countries that Hunter Biden, James Biden and their associates planned to target for deals overlapped with nations where Joe Biden had previously been involved as vice president." Strassel noted that "a May 2017 'expectations' document shows Hunter receiving 20% of the equity in the venture and holding another 10% for 'the big guy'—who Mr. Bobulinski attests is Joe Biden." And the independent journalist Matt Taibbi published an article on Sunday with ample documentation suggesting that Biden's attempt to replace a Ukranian prosecutor in 2015 benefited Burisma.​​All of these new materials, the authenticity of which has never been disputed by Hunter Biden or the Biden campaign, raise important questions about whether the former Vice President and current front-running presidential candidate was aware of efforts by his son to peddle influence with the Vice President for profit, and also whether the Vice President ever took actions in his official capacity with the intention, at least in part, of benefitting his son's business associates. But in the two weeks since the Post published its initial story, a union of the nation's most powerful entities, including its news media, have taken extraordinary steps to obscure and bury these questions rather than try to provide answers to them.​​The initial documents, claimed the New York Post, were obtained when the laptops containing them were left at a Delaware repair shop with water damage and never picked up, allowing the owner to access its contents and then turn them over to both the FBI and a lawyer for Trump advisor Rudy Giuliani. The repair store owner confirmed this narrative in interviews with news outlets and then (under penalty of prosecution) to a Senate Committee; he also provided the receipt purportedly signed by Hunter. Neither Hunter nor the Biden campaign has denied these claims.​​Publication of that initial New York Post story provoked a highly unusual censorship campaign by Facebook and Twitter. Facebook, through a long-time former Democratic Party operative, vowed to suppress the story pending its “fact-check,” one that has as of yet produced no public conclusions. And while Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey apologized for Twitter’s handling of the censorship and reversed the policy that led to the blocking of all links the story, the New York Post, the nation’s fourth-largest newspaper, continues to be locked out of its Twitter account, unable to post as the election approaches, for almost two weeks.​​After that initial censorship burst from Silicon Valley, whose workforce and oligarchs have donated almost entirely to the Biden campaign, it was the nation's media outlets and former CIA and other intelligence officials who took the lead in constructing reasons why the story should be dismissed, or at least treated with scorn. As usual for the Trump era, the theme that took center stage to accomplish this goal was an unsubstantiated claim about the Kremlin responsibility for the story.​​Numerous news outlets, including the Intercept, quickly cited a public letter signed by former CIA officials and other agents of the security state claiming that the documents have the “classic trademarks" of a “Russian disinformation” plot. But, as media outlets and even intelligence agencies are now slowly admitting, no evidence has ever been presented to corroborate this assertion. On Friday, the New York Times reported that “no concrete evidence has emerged that the laptop contains Russian disinformation” and the paper said even the FBI has “acknowledged that it had not found any Russian disinformation on the laptop.”​​The Washington Post on Sunday published an op-ed -- by Thomas Rid, one of those centrists establishmentarian professors whom media outlets routinely use to provide the facade of expert approval for deranged conspiracy theories -- that contained this extraordinary proclamation: "We must treat the Hunter Biden leaks as if they were a foreign intelligence operation — even if they probably aren't."​

More on link below...


https://greenwald.substack.com/p/article-on-joe-and-hunter-biden-censored​


----------



## DB008

Tony Bobulinski interview




*Tucker exclusive: Tony Bobulinski, ex-Hunter Biden associate,
speaks out on Joe Biden*


​


----------



## DB008

*Glenn Greenwald on resigning from his own publication due to censorship*







.​


----------



## dutchie

Trump has another success!


*American hostage rescued in West Africa by SEAL Team 6 in daring raid*
*The rescue took place earlier Saturday in northern Nigeria*










						American hostage rescued in West Africa by SEAL Team 6 in daring raid
					

An American hostage has been rescued in Nigeria by SEAL Team 6 in a daring raid, Fox News has learned.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## noirua




----------



## Knobby22

noirua said:


>




Well I will definitely not be voting for Biden!.


----------



## noirua

Knobby22 said:


> Well I will definitely not be voting for Biden!.


----------



## noirua




----------



## Knobby22

Punters have been betting Trump big time according to Ladbrokes and Sportsbet who will make a fortune if Trump loses. Realistically they should balance the books but they are taking on the punters. Some confidence there.


----------



## basilio

A recap of the first 4 seasons of "The Trump Show"

*The US election is here, so let's recap the first four seasons of ratings winner The Trump Administration*

It's hard to believe there have been only four seasons of The Trump Administration. It feels like 10.

The political thriller from the creator of Survivor follows a fish-out-of-water president (Donald J Trump, from NBC's The Apprentice) whose White House is dogged by one scandal after another.

Now, as we wait to see whether the show will be renewed for another four seasons, let's re-examine some of the twists and turns of this ratings winner.

*This article is a tongue-in-check accounting of four years of the Trump Administration, told in the style of a television recap.*









						I binge-watched four seasons of The Trump Administration. Here's the recap
					

As we wait to see whether the show will be renewed for another four seasons, let's re-examine some of the twists and turns of this ratings winner.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio

The COVID crisis in the now out of control. Regardless of the election result the Trump administration will still in power until Jan 20th - 11 weeks away.  On current trends COVID infections and deaths would be running at 2-3 times the present situation. 

*On the day before the US election, the coronavirus pandemic is the worst it has ever been in the country*








						As Trump's D-Day arrives, America's coronavirus 'wildfire' is the worst it has been
					

Donald Trump has declared dozens of times that coronavirus will simply "go away". But now, in the week that voters cast their judgement on the record of the President, the pandemic is, on many measures, worse than it has ever been, writes Casey Briggs.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO

Knobby22 said:


> Punters have been betting Trump big time according to Ladbrokes and Sportsbet who will make a fortune if Trump loses. Realistically they should balance the books but they are taking on the punters. Some confidence there.



Cookie polls have Trump ahead. Yes actual cookies. Trump 2020 vs Biden 2020.

Look out dems


----------



## sptrawler

This article sums up the problem with a hood winked media IMO.








						Why Trump has become China's enemy ... with benefits
					

Even Donald Trump's political enemies agree that he has hurt the Xi regime. But he has also created a "strategic window" of opportunity for China to expand its influence.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

_Russel sums this up: "They are rejoicing in the strategic window of opportunity that Trump has created, and they are barrelling right through it." But what would a Biden administration do differently should he win? From his years of working with Biden, Russel expects that he'd "put priority on gathering America's strength", in the first instance through economic recovery. Next would come rebuilding alliances and partnerships: "He is not going to deal with China in a vacuum. An organising principle of a Biden administration would be not mindless China bashing but common cause" with US friends and allies.

He would seek to mobilise the multilateral system in common cause with allies and like-minded nations, rather than Trump's withdrawal from key institutions. "For most of the world, it would feel like America had returned to normal."
Should he win, Biden would engage with China on three levels, Russel posits. One would be deterring Beijing's aggression where it threatens the US or its allies. As examples, he cites the penetration of sensitive scientific research and cyberattack. Another level would be on issues that could be managed, such as dealing with China's law enforcement or its supply of the opiate fentanyl.

A third level would be co-operation where the two powers have common interests. Climate change is the prime example_.

So that's how they are going to improve a US/China trade imbalance of $600billion to $100billion and climbing, best of luck with that, my guess is boat people will be going from Australia to Thailand in 50 years.


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## basilio

Sharp little prophecy of the US election  result..

*We Sent A Reporter To The Future To Find Out Who Wins The US Election      * 

It’s Trump, sorry. But it may not be as bad as you think. Read our American reporter’s account of the first year of Trump’s second term.


*“Like a lot of people, I was sceptical about a second Trump term. The total disintegration of the American ideal under Trump’s watch had made me start to at least entertain the idea that he might not be the tremendous leader he claims to be. So when Biden won the popular vote, as well as the Electoral College vote at the November election, I’ll admit, I was quietly excited about a new direction for our nation.*

But that was before it came to light that the Democrats had rigged the election using a sophisticated mail-in ballot scam masterminded from the basement of a pizza shop in Washington DC. _The New York Times_ and _CNN_ said it wasn’t true. But from what I saw on Facebook, the evidence was pretty clear.

The outcome of the re-run election was – thankfully for our democracy – much clearer, with ninety-seven percent of the nation voting for Trump. No doubt the pesky _New York Times_ would have questioned the veracity of that result too. If it was still legal for them to operate.

Since then, I’ve got to say, life’s been pretty good. The economy is booming apparently, healthcare is widely available for all wealthy people who need it, and since testing was stopped last December, the coronavirus has been completely eradicated.

There’s been a real focus on social justice too. The White Lives Matter protests that started in March have really shone a light on some of the lesser known injustices faced by Trump and his donors. Who knew just how discriminatory some of those conflict-of-interest laws actually were.

For women, the new law that forbids them from driving was a blow. But the new uterus register has actually turned out to be much more efficient than anyone imagined.

And while the compulsory Russian classes on Thursday nights can be a drag, as I’ve said before – если это стоит делать, то стоит делать хорошо.

There have been some downsides. My phone doesn’t work as well now that all the 5G towers have been removed. And I’ve missed my Muslim friends more than I expected. But these are minor things.

I’m right behind President Trump and our future presidents Eric Trump, Donald Trump Jnr and Baron Trump. As they say at the compulsory rallies “Forty more years!”








						We Sent A Reporter To The Future To Find Out Who Wins The US Election
					

It's Trump, sorry. But it may not be as bad as you think. Read our reporter's account of the first year of Trump's second term.




					www.theshovel.com.au


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## dutchie

basilio said:


> Sharp little prophecy of the US election  result..
> 
> *We Sent A Reporter To The Future To Find Out Who Wins The US Election      *



Your such a hypocrite.


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## wayneL




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