# Does Reincarnation Exist? :)



## shasta (1 July 2006)

hmmmmmm...does reincarnation exist?


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## son of baglimit (1 July 2006)

I thought so in a past life, but currently i am a non-believer !!!


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## MalteseBull (1 July 2006)

this should be on a hindu forum not a sharemarket forum


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## shasta (1 July 2006)

that's why it's in general chat maltesebull  looking at other topics in here it seems anything goes   

yep son_of_baglimit  but I'm having second thoughts now


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## Blitzed (1 July 2006)

If the bible is true and Adam and Eve were the first, where did Cain and Able come from? And who did they have kids with?

If we came from monkeys how come we still have monkeys and not something inbetween, you would think by now they would have evolved more.   

And how come the earths population is growing. If reincarnation was true then it would stay the same would it not? Just Adam and Eve dying and being reborn.


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## mit (1 July 2006)

I know these are toungue in cheek but some people are serious about this.



			
				Blitzed said:
			
		

> If the bible is true and Adam and Eve were the first, where did Cain and Able come from? And who did they have kids with?




Cain and Able were their kids. Who they married is interesting but the people who believe the Bible is literal say they married their sisters. Our DNA was purer in those days so they say. However, they can never answer why Genesis 1 and 2 have creation in different orders.



> If we came from monkeys how come we still have monkeys and not something inbetween, you would think by now they would have evolved more.



If we all came from Europe why are there still Europeans. Evolution merely selects the best for an environment there is no arrow. No body knows why no other homonids survived. Given what we are doing to the earth, I think that we outcompeted them. 



> And how come the earths population is growing. If reincarnation was true then it would stay the same would it not? Just Adam and Eve dying and being reborn.




Different set of Myths. I think that the belief is that new souls are continually being created and the perfect souls are being taken out of circulation.


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## happytrader (1 July 2006)

Hi there interesting topic. I have absolutely no idea if reincarnation exists but I absolutely believe in synchronicity. In fact I like to ask most everyone I associate with if they have ever had the experience of thinking about someone and over the next few days or whatever they see or hear of that person. Out of maybe 6 dozen or so people only one deaf person had not had this experience. 

Has anyone here had this experience?

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Julia (1 July 2006)

happytrader said:
			
		

> Hi there interesting topic. I have absolutely no idea if reincarnation exists but I absolutely believe in synchronicity. In fact I like to ask most everyone I associate with if they have ever had the experience of thinking about someone and over the next few days or whatever they see or hear of that person. Out of maybe 6 dozen or so people only one deaf person had not had this experience.
> 
> Has anyone here had this experience?
> 
> ...




Can't this be explained by (a) coincidence, and/or (b) if you are thinking about someone, chances are that person is a part of your life in some way and you are therefore pretty likely to see or hear of or about them?

I sometimes think about dead people.  What should happen then if your theory is right?  If reincarnation does exist, wouldn't I then expect to have some "contact" from that dead person?  

But then I suppose if reincarnation has occurred and my dead person has come back in a new form then I wouldn't recognise him/her.  Gets awfully confusing, doesn't it.

I find it difficult to believe in reincarnation and don't accept organised religion or the Bible as having any meaning for me, but I have frequently had a sense of my much loved late grandmother's "presence" around me.  I absolutely cannot explain this or describe it but the same phenomenon has never occurred with respect to any other dead person.

So a corollary to the question about reincarnation might be "does a spirit world exist".  I'd be interested to know if anyone else has had a similar sense of something as I've described with my grandmother.

Thanks for the interesting topic.

Julia


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## happytrader (1 July 2006)

Hi Julia

Interesting point you've brought up about thinking about dead people and the synchronicity thing. I've never asked anyone that one or had anyone actually bring that up in regards to my question. However, of the dozens of respondents I have only had one who had no idea what I was talking about. The usual response is immediate understanding and knowing.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## srivest (1 July 2006)

Here's how it works:

1- Everything is matter: you, your dog, a rock, my computer, jupiter, whatever. Matter is nor destroyed or created.
2- What people call "themselves" or  "their souls" is a specific bunch of matter setup in a particular way that makes you think, feel, etc.
4- When you die, matter will eventually decompose and associate with other particles to create other things.
5- In the most unliquely event that your exact particles come back naturally together to form the same individual is statistically impossible. 

So my answer is, reincarnation is statistically impossible.

Funny to think, after all these years of evolution, that there are still people believing in a god. Maybe simply because we have difficulty dealing with concepts like infinity or things that don't have a reason for being the way they are.

As to why certain people feel a known/unknown presence around them it's simply their brain making the whole thing up, like a dream while they are awake, this has been observed and documented before.


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## krisbarry (1 July 2006)

We as humans are still evolving:

primitive parts of the brain (in the base of the back of the skull) are shrinking...

Our frontal lobes (Forhead) are now larger than that of the caveman era, due to the more complexed nature of todays environment.

Since the advent of computers (keyboards) our wrists/arms are becoming more flexible, stonger and larger.

It is amazing what happens over a short period of time in the eveloution of the human race!


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## wayneL (1 July 2006)

I have no idea whether reincarnation exists, but I have a couple of comments.

1/ No-one can know that God, Allah, Buddah, Yaweh, Jehova, Infinite Intellegence, Cosmic Intellegence, whatever you want to call it, definately does NOT exist.

You can only believe he/she/it does not exist.

Therefore Atheism is a faith, just like Christianity, Islam, Wicca, Taoism, whetever.

2/ Christians (and others) are often criticized for their proselytising activities, yet the atheists are probably the most fervent proselytes there are. That is certainly obvious here on ASF.

3/ Christians (and others) tend to base their argument around the infallibility of the Bible.

Atheists tend to centre their arguement around inconsistencies in the Bible.

Could a God (or whatever) exist exclusive of what is said in the Bible? Of course! The Bible is irrelevent.

4/ People who believe in God (or whatever) tend to assign human qualities to their selected deity... jealousy, anger, revenge, need to be worshipped, need to be obeyed etc.

What if God (or whatever) wasn't any of the above. What if what you believe, doesn't matter?

What if we are ALL wrong? What if the truth nothing like any of us ever imagined?

What I'm trying to say here, is that we all get carried away trying to support, and substantiate our own beliefs. We try to manipulate others into our own belief system in order to support our own belief system.

I say it doesn't matter a damn. Each is on their own journey for whatever reason they're on it. Be happy and content with your journey, but please don't ridicule or proselytise. It's really quite peurile.

The only thing I say is believe what you want to believe, but have an open mind. I see a lot of narrow views defended with fuzzy thinking and lunatic logic at times.

Cheers and be cool.


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## happytrader (1 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Can't this be explained by (a) coincidence, and/or (b) if you are thinking about someone, chances are that person is a part of your life in some way and you are therefore pretty likely to see or hear of or about them?
> 
> I sometimes think about dead people.  What should happen then if your theory is right?  If reincarnation does exist, wouldn't I then expect to have some "contact" from that dead person?
> 
> ...




Your grandmother sounds like she was very, very special to you. Would it be correct to assume that you felt particularly safe in her presence? If this is so, then it is quite likely your body has retained a memory in the form of your described response. How wonderful.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Mouse (1 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Can't this be explained by (a) coincidence, and/or (b) if you are thinking about someone, chances are that person is a part of your life in some way and you are therefore pretty likely to see or hear of or about them?
> 
> I sometimes think about dead people.  What should happen then if your theory is right?  If reincarnation does exist, wouldn't I then expect to have some "contact" from that dead person?
> 
> ...




I had a similar experience with my Grandfather after he died Julia.  We were very close.  He died suddenly and I "knew" before the phone call.  Also another time after he died I was thinking "Come on Grandad give me a sign", and a book fell from the gym and almost hit me on the head (I was in the middle of doing situps), the window and door to the room were closed so there was no breeze.

On a different but similar topic, I also had an experience where I dreamt one Thursday night that we won 2nd division Gold Lotto, I told my Mum the next morning, and that Saturday we won 2nd division Gold lotto.  It was only $9500 but better than nothing   

Now if only I could "feel" which shares were going to go up!!!

cheers
Mouse


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## macca (1 July 2006)

Yes Julia,

Since my mother died last year she has visited me at Christmas, my birthday and mothers day....... sure has made it easier to accept her passing.


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## Julia (1 July 2006)

Wayne:

Interesting comments.  But I don't think most agnostics or even atheists are quite as dogged in their attitudes as devout practitioners of any religions.

I'm really happy for people to believe whatever they want, and to practise accordingly, but I do get really irritated when those people keep repeating the same old Biblical quotations etc which, as you point out, are frequently contradictory anyway.


Happytrader, Mouse and Macca,

Thanks for your responses.  I guess it's entirely possible that what Srivest suggests is correct.  Could our sense of a "presence" be nothing more than either wishful thinking or happy memories of someone who was a very important part of our lives?  i.e. do we miss that person so much that we are able to imagine them "being with us"?  Possibly.

If that is the case, why don't I have a similar sense about someone else who died whom I also miss very much?

Perhaps it's possible that some of us who are not attracted to religion and/or are agnostic about any sort of God seek some sort of sense of support from the "spirit presence" of someone who has been protective towards us in their lifetime?

Julia


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## mista200 (1 July 2006)

i believe in the spirit world


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## Sean K (2 July 2006)

Wayne, 

Isn't the onus of proof of the person saying something _does _ exist? Otherwise we can just make up any old crap and say , 'well, prove it doesn't'.

I was taken up in a flying saucer last night.


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## Jadefox (2 July 2006)

A problem can't be solved on it's own level. If my awareness of the rules of maths is limited to 'one plus one equals two' then I'll have trouble trying to solve a complex algebraic equation. A more expansive awareness is required.

If I want answers to questions about the soul and the physical body I need to have experienced higher states of awareness - or accept guidance from someone who has gone beyond the mundane level of consciousness in which most of us function ie total identification with a body/mind.

Direct experience is knowing not believing. It may not convince others but what does it matter?

"This body has birth and death and when this body falls another body arises which is called reincarnation. But are you the body? if you find that you are not this body but the spirit, then you will be free from gross or subtle bodies
and then there will be no limitations. Where is the world, physical or spiritual in the absence of any limitations?" - Ramana Maharshi


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## wayneL (2 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Wayne,
> 
> Isn't the onus of proof of the person saying something _does _ exist? Otherwise we can just make up any old crap and say , 'well, prove it doesn't'.
> 
> I was taken up in a flying saucer last night.




Kennas,

It doesn't matter in the end. If you want to be an atheist, fine. 

But I notice an imperitave by atheists, to convert others to the atheist point of view. I contend that that is similar to having a bible shoved down ones throat. 

Atheism IS a dogma. Atheists are proselytes. (I'm refering particularly to atheists and not agnostics) Instead of fear and guilt, they use ridicule and satire and it is equally unpalatable. It is just more socially acceptable in our society.

My point is; people don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this without a comprehensive polarisation and hardening of view. It seems silly, because none of us can possibly "know" the absolute truth.

We can only have beliefs.

In the end each of us are on our own journey, and thats completely fine so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Cheers


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## Mostafa (2 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I have no idea whether reincarnation exists, but I have a couple of comments.



I have some comments too 

I believe that human life is a short journey and this word is a lab for people to know and find themselves and then know God.


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## Rafa (2 July 2006)

WayneL said:
			
		

> Atheism IS a dogma. Atheists are proselytes. (I'm refering particularly to atheists and not agnostics) Instead of fear and guilt, they use ridicule and satire and it is equally unpalatable. It is just more socially acceptable in our society.




I have stopped posting for this very same reason... because I see a deliberate attempt by the part of the atheist on this forum to invite comment on issues, and then when replies are gained based on each persons individual beliefs, they are ridiculed just becuase its based on religious beliefs!!!

I mean, what is the point of all this... There is a deliberate attempt by atheists to spread their 'faith' whilst pretending to take the moral high ground and say... 'Hey, we don't go about spreading our beliefs on others like the other religions...'

The fact is, this has been happening quite clearly on this forum and on the media for many years, all in the name of logic and satire and to get cheap laughs....

I did try, in a thread while back to have a discussion based on reason… that thread died rather quickly…. 

Thanks Wayne, for exposing, in such clear words, the HYPOCRISY at work by some people on these message boards.

R.


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## Bobby (2 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> I have stopped posting for this very same reason... because I see a deliberate attempt by the part of the atheist on this forum to invite comment on issues, and then when replies are gained based on each persons individual beliefs, they are ridiculed just becuase its based on religious beliefs!!!
> 
> I mean, what is the point of all this... There is a deliberate attempt by atheists to spread their 'faith' whilst pretending to take the moral high ground and say... 'Hey, we don't go about spreading our beliefs on others like the other religions...'
> 
> ...



  Hullo Rafa'
When did you  become a proselyte, was it from your early childhood ?
Was it a manifestation of your own discovery ? or was it an introduction from others ?  

Bob.


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## shasta (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Wayne,
> 
> Isn't the onus of proof of the person saying something _does _ exist? Otherwise we can just make up any old crap and say , 'well, prove it doesn't'.
> 
> I was taken up in a flying saucer last night.




*If someone is not trying to change other peoples' views/beliefs then there is no onus of proof on that someone regarding religious beliefs as everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like and they are then fully entitled to use those beliefs to support any comments*.  

Anyone can then personally disregard those supporting beliefs if they so choose but if they then want to convince the original person their views are BS then the onus is on them to prove to the original how their views are BS.


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## professor_frink (3 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I have no idea whether reincarnation exists, but I have a couple of comments.
> 
> 1/ No-one can know that God, Allah, Buddah, Yaweh, Jehova, Infinite Intellegence, Cosmic Intellegence, whatever you want to call it, definately does NOT exist.
> 
> ...




well said wayne. I couldn't have said it half as well as that!!


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## Sean K (3 July 2006)

Shasta, (and Wayne) the people said to be 'atheists' on this forum are not basing their arguments on faith, belief, mysticism, higher powers, extraterrestrials, or dogma as you say. 

We (I assume I am one of your athiests) are trying to use logic and reason to put our case forward. Not just blind faith and trust in a set of rules and an understanding of the universe developed in the ancient world when humans thought the world was flat, the stone wheel was technlogy, and the stars were Gods. 

We are arguing a case with the facts available and not deferring to irrationality when there are no proofs. 

Those that do not search for the truth and have their feet cemented in first millenium fears of the supernatural, are holding the human race back from progressing and creating a better world for all.


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## Happy (3 July 2006)

On the other hand if reincarnation exists, our possible death row buggers would come back sooner.

Maybe there is merit in delaying their reappearance, as there is no guarantee they would come back any better?


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## shasta (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> ............We (I assume I am one of your athiests) are trying to use logic and reason to put our case forward. Not just blind faith and trust in a set of rules and an understanding of the universe developed in the ancient world when humans thought the world was flat, the stone wheel was technlogy, and the stars were Gods.
> 
> We are arguing a case with the facts available and not deferring to irrationality when there are no proofs..........




I agree in general with Wayne and I disagree with kennas because those who do not believe in a god, as they are entitled to if they choose, are also simply basing their belief in a 'blind faith' that no god exists *and so what wayne said: "You can only believe he/she/it does not exist." * is true because no-one can physically prove no god exists just as those that do believe cannot physically prove that a god exists....*so it just boils down to what you choose to believe based on your personal choices and experiences  *


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## Sean K (3 July 2006)

Shasta, I actually agree with you, but to me the common idea of _God_ is absolutely absurd. So, yes, it's just my opinion, because I have not been touched by God as you perhaps have. I have looked for God, and been willing to accept Him if he proved Himself to me in some way. I have studied the history of God in some detail and have a bookcase dedicated to religion. Through my studies I have discovered that the idea of God is clearly a creation of humankind, not the other way around. All belief and faith developed as a means for the primitives to understand the mysteries of the world and later, for the power elite to control society. There is more to it, but that's the basics. 

But again, of course, just my opinion.


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## shasta (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Shasta, I actually agree with you, but to me the common idea of _God_ is absolutely absurd. So, yes, it's just my opinion, because I have not been touched by God as you perhaps have. I have looked for God, and been willing to accept Him if he proved Himself to me in some way..........




I think you could be going about it the wrong way if you expect God to prove Himself to you, or anyone for that matter.

Somewhere in the gospels (I don't know the references off the top of my head) Jesus Christ praises those he is talking to at the time for believing in Him after seeing the work and miracles he had performed whilst many others chose not to and then goes on to say something like blessed are those who have not seen but still believe.

Here imo he is clearly referring to the generations of people after He ascends back to heaven and it is a request from Him to us to believe in Him through faith as opposed to concrete physical proof after He is gone physically from this world.  

Many see the events, miracles etc as described by eye witnesses (the apostles)  as being concrete proof of God's existence.  But many will also choose to believe the gospels are a load of rubbish, conspiracy, halucinations etc etc.

So if someone accepts the gospels are fact then it is much easier for them to find and accept God, as you put it, but if they don't accept the gospels as fact for whatever reason they choose then it is very easy for them to dismiss and ridicule them while at the same time not being able to prove they are fiction in anyway........so it just boils down to what everyone choose to believe and have faith in.

Try to remember that *faith = believing something that cannot be physically proved* _and just because it cannot be physically proved does not mean it isn't true...._it just gives everyone the option to either believe or not believe it....nothing more, nothing less


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## xice (3 July 2006)

nope, everything is in your head. yep no heaven either unfortunately. Brains only electronic impules, thats it.


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## nelly (3 July 2006)

....... 65-70 years...die........
what a depressing thought..... what would be the point......obeying the law......learning right from wrong......finding a purpose...........quote "all that is not eternal is eternally useless" unquote.............. just what would be the point if YOU were right?.......[tilt the perspective away from always being about 'Me'...'I'....'My'................it is not!]

quote C.S.Lewis


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## Sean K (3 July 2006)

The point is to make the 65-70 years the best possible years they can be. If you think life is going to be better after, in 'heaven', then you won't live this life to it's fullest and you'll waste it. LIVE THIS LIFE, NOW!! THERE IS NO OTHER.


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## wayneL (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Shasta, I actually agree with you, but to me the common idea of _God_ is absolutely absurd. So, yes, it's just my opinion, because I have not been touched by God as you perhaps have. I have looked for God, and been willing to accept Him if he proved Himself to me in some way. I have studied the history of God in some detail and have a bookcase dedicated to religion. Through my studies I have discovered that the idea of God is clearly a creation of humankind, not the other way around. All belief and faith developed as a means for the primitives to understand the mysteries of the world and later, for the power elite to control society. There is more to it, but that's the basics.
> 
> But again, of course, just my opinion.




Kennas,

I find a lot to agree with in your post.

Clearly, mans creation of God is absurd, as I have strongly intimated before. And herein lies the great problem. The God of the bible and other texts, is not a credible God in view of scientific knowledge, or even with logical non-scientific examination.

However the scientific community's version of creation/evolution is equally incredible, and contains many absurdities. Likewise, this version of events should be regarded with healthy scepticism. Therefore, belief in accidental evolution requires faith as well.

I humbly submit that whatever faith is selected doesn't matter. There is happiness in trying to do good (this is demonstrable). So whether at death we turn to dust, or live on as some sort of spirit, the human being should just try to do good and respect life.

If there is a God, I'm sure he/she/it would be satisfied with that, even if by circumstance, that person didn't believe. 

I would. 

Cheers


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## wayneL (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> THERE IS NO OTHER.




PROSELYTATION


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## Julia (3 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Kennas,
> 
> I find a lot to agree with in your post.
> 
> ...




Wayne

I wish I'd said that.  Thank you.  Sums up my feelings perfectly.

Julia


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## Sean K (3 July 2006)

Yes, I'll take that Wayne. 

My way of living the most fulfilling life I possible can, and not waste time, is to think that this is the only life I have. I have one chance at making my, and those lives around me, the best they can be. 

You're right, I'm preaching.   

I still think that organised religion causes more damage to society than having a humanistic philosophic perspective on life!


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## nelly (3 July 2006)

shasta said:
			
		

> hmmmmmm...does reincarnation exist?



Contrary to what popular books, movies and seminars will tell you, you won't discover your lifes meaning by looking within yourself. [But you've probably tried that already.] You didn't create yourself, so there is no way you can know what you were created for! 
If I handed you an invention you had never seen before, you wouldn't know it's purpose and the invention itself couldn't tell you either. 
Only the inventor or the owners manual could tell you it's purpose.......
For 1000's of years, brilliant philosophers have discussed and speculated about the meaning of life. Philosophy is an important subject and has it's uses, but when it comes to determining the purpose of life, even the wisest philosophers are just guessing.
The search for the purpose of life has puzzled people for 1000's of years. Thats because they typically begin at the wrong starting point - ourselves. 

Obviously I am a creationist as opposed to an evolutionist, an optimist as opposed to a pessimist and I do not believe in re-incarnation.


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## nelly (3 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> The point is to make the 65-70 years the best possible years they can be. If you think life is going to be better after, in 'heaven', then you won't live this life to it's fullest and you'll waste it. LIVE THIS LIFE, NOW!! THERE IS NO OTHER.



Hi Kennas..I know I am worth a lot more than said number of years, we all are aren't we?  What do you mean "to the fullest"...When you die are you going to say, "Bring me the gold watch/new car/painting," so you can hold it one more time, I think not rather it would be  about the RELATIONSHIPS we have made while on this earth.  You don't take anything with you, only your character, and you develop your character through relationships.That is our purpose.
IMHO the basic motive for success is the driving force of envy and jealousy [just think about it for a moment]
I am living my life to the fullest. I do not intend to waste anything. I am going to heaven.
I am living my life to the fullest. I do not intend to waste anything. I am not going to heaven.
Either way I will have lived my life to the fullest and wasted NOTHING. :newbie:


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## nelly (3 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Wayne
> 
> I wish I'd said that.  Thank you.  Sums up my feelings perfectly.
> 
> Julia



Hi ya all...no offense....i value everyones opinion, and the right to express it but I find people who are un-informed can't really form an informed opinion..IMO


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## wayneL (3 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi ya all...no offense....i value everyones opinion, and the right to express it but I find people who are un-informed can't really form an informed opinion..IMO




Hi nelly

Do you think your comments are a bit disparaging and just a tad dogmatic?

Looking forward to your answer.

Cheers


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## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

Nelly,

First there is this:



> Contrary to what popular books, movies and seminars will tell you, you won't discover your lifes meaning by looking within yourself.




And this:



> You didn't create yourself, so there is no way you can know what you were created for!




And this:



> Only the inventor or the owners manual could tell you it's purpose.......
> For 1000's of years, brilliant philosophers have discussed and speculated about the meaning of life. Philosophy is an important subject and has it's uses, but when it comes to determining the purpose of life, even the wisest philosophers are just guessing. The search for the purpose of life has puzzled people for 1000's of years. Thats because they typically begin at the wrong starting point - ourselves.




Is such an analogy appropriate for something as complicated as life?

And this:



> You don't take anything with you, only your character, and you develop your character through relationships.That is our purpose.




Our purpose is it?  What about looking within ourselves when it comes to relationships?

And then at the end this:



> Hi ya all...no offense....i value everyones opinion, and the right to express it but I find people who are un-informed  can't really form an informed opinion..




How can we be informed if for thousands of years people have gotten it all wrong as inferred by you?

Snake


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## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Nelly,

In regard to the material possessions comment, I 100% agree. 'Things' are just items we try to represent and define ourselves by but truly don't. They just represent what society tells us is important. Like my Tag Heuer! he he. I know I can't take it with me and it represents a totally fake part of who I am. I'm just conforming to a part of society that tells me if I posess this watch then people will think I have money, or have good taste, and therefore will like me more thus developing my self esteem. Pretty crap on the surface of it, but I am a step ahead because I recognise this fakeness for what it is. I've been programmed to do this and now I can overcome it because I first of all recognise it for what it is. Anyway, off the topic.

I was thinking about reincarnation last night and I was trying to imgine the actual physical process of reincarnation to see if it was more acceptable to me.....

My soul (which is unidentifiable, unseen, has no shape, can not be held in space or time) leaves my body (from the exact location I do not know) when I die and floats up through the atmosphere (by what means I do not know) to a holding location in the cosmos (where I do not know, nor how it is held in place, or by whom, nor how it is sustained) and then at some other time in the future (days, months, centuries?) it is transferred into a feotus at some stage of genstation, or a baby at birth (depending on who you talk to) and then, my soul (which is my personality? or life force? or brain?) lives on in that other person until they die. etc   

Sound like a solid concept to me. I'll sign up to that theory any day.


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## visual (4 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> PROSELYTATION



googled word above,google asked,did you mean prostitution?


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## nelly (4 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Hi nelly
> 
> Do you think your comments are a bit disparaging and just a tad dogmatic?
> 
> ...



Hi Wayne...firstly thanks for the question..nothing like a good debate to stimulate the grey matter.
Sorry if I come across as a disparaging, opinionated   .........I'm definitely not trying to put anyone down.  ...IMO if you are looking for answers you should be prepared to research all routes...and you know when you read or hear something that has a ring of truth to it...you usually know it.
'dogmatic'.......you could put 1 true and 5 false in a bag...and it doesn't matter how many times a false is brought forth and declared to be true...and vice versa...doesn't change the fact there is still 1 true and 5 false
I suppose I... IMHO....feel I have stumbled onto a ring of truth.....don't mean to shove anything down anyones throat...just thought some one might be interested to hear an opinion :aliena: 
Cheers..looking forward to reading more of your comments


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

I don't beleive in re-incarnation but as WayneL said...



> There is happiness in trying to do good (this is demonstrable). So whether at death we turn to dust, or live on as some sort of spirit, the human being should just try to do good and respect life.




Well said....

Now as long as we can leave it at that, and not get you atheist preachers vehemently spreading your beliefs on this forum....

then we can all live happily ever after...      


PS: prof, thanks for the PM, i've never checked that section of the forum till today!


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nelly,
> 
> In regard to the material possessions comment, I 100% agree. 'Things' are just items we try to represent and define ourselves by but truly don't. They just represent what society tells us is important. Like my Tag Heuer! he he. I know I can't take it with me and it represents a totally fake part of who I am. I'm just conforming to a part of society that tells me if I posess this watch then people will think I have money, or have good taste, and therefore will like me more thus developing my self esteem. Pretty crap on the surface of it, but I am a step ahead because I recognise this fakeness for what it is. I've been programmed to do this and now I can overcome it because I first of all recognise it for what it is. Anyway, off the topic.
> 
> ...



Hi Kennas..I appreciate the feed back, do you think fully 7 bracketed groups of questions makes a solid concept?..IMO I would research more...or r u bein   sarcastic  sorry
nevertheless I will push on......your soul "which is unidentifiable, unseen, has no shape, can not be held in space or time" is nonetheless, your soul, you know you have one,can't prove it but you know nonetheless.
Cheers, have a nice day


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Rafa,

Don't you have an opinion? Or, are you just going to smash other people's ideas without providing any contribution? 

Nelly,

I have no 'soul'.    I am a product of my mother and father's genes. Just like any other animal on the planet. I am part of the ecosystem and I will return to it. Therefore, best I look after it.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Rafa,
> 
> Don't you have an opinion? Or, are you just going to smash other people's ideas without providing any contribution?
> 
> ...



righty o then...problem solved...debate closed...no soul..nothing matters   ........  
cheers


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Ha, ha, of course it all matters. Matters more than ever. Everything I do now effects me and those around me and the environment. It's that perspective that makes me want to be the best person I can be for all concerned. 

As has been mentioned on this thread, there is nothing magical about our being other than we are an incredible complex organism driven by vitamins, minerals, water and oxygen. We don't fully understand our system and how it operates yet but we are getting there. Mapping the genome has been a huge leap, and undertstanding memory will be another step. But it's all ultimately just electrical impulses generated by chemical reactions throughout the body. Incredible, but I'd want to get to the bottom of the biological complex before I start believing in ghosts.


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Rafa,
> Don't you have an opinion? Or, are you just going to smash other people's ideas without providing any contribution?




Kennas, what are you talking about...!!!   I have an opinion!!!

My opinion is actually of complete agreement with WayneL point of view (even tho he doesn't believe in a God), i am completely in agree with his statement that…



> There is happiness in trying to do good (this is demonstrable). So whether at death we turn to dust, or live on as some sort of spirit, the human being should just try to do good and respect life....





WayneL has demonstrated the right way to live... and the right way to act on this forum... Just like Julia and other around here.... who have similar beliefs.


He has his belief, but is happy to accept that in the end, that is just it... someone's beliefs’. And each one is entitled to their own, irrespective of the logic behind it!


You on the other hand, have been the one smashing the views of those who believe in religion and seem adamant to impose your point of view on others....


I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself kennas and your motivation behind all your posts, both on this topic and on others...  maybe you are an atheist preacher... I don't know, but you certainly come across as one...!


PS: Moderator, i apologise for this, but I am not one for beating around the bush, i simply call it as I see it...! I have no time for anything else! 

I have tried in my previous posts to explain issues from my point of veiw, and that has been taken on board by most, eg, Julia, Prof, etc... Kennas is the only one who seems to continually harp on this the whole time like a broken record. This is meant to be a stock market forum, Kennas is driving this into an 'atheist' religion forum with the zeal and vigour not seen since the missionaries of the middle ages!


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Nelly,
> 
> First there is this:
> 
> ...



Hi...can't quite bring myself to refer to you as snake pliskin..whatever.....
Thanks for the feed-back...in regards to relationships the whole point is to focus on 'other,' before yourself......true loving relationships are when the 'other's' happiness is essential to your own.....IMHO.
And yes life is complicated, but the fundamentals of 'being' don't have to be, I just stick to one basic.. IMHO... truth.
And... IMO the reason we don't get it right, is because being the egotistical creatures we are we think it all begins and ends with us...we are just so wonderful/clever/resourceful...[u get my point] how can it not.  
cheers.. thanks for giving us/me your opinion


----------



## noirua (4 July 2006)

If believing in reincarnation makes you a happy well rounded person, then go for it. 
If not believing in reincarnation makes you a happy well rounded person, then go for it. 
If being unsure about reincarnation makes you a happy well rounded person, then go for it.

If you believe one of the above or are unsure and you'r not a happy well rounded person, don't worry about it. After all, none of us can remember having a long wait for our turn to be born, so there will be no waiting on the other side anyway, we'll return to this form of limbo.


----------



## ducati916 (4 July 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by wayneL
> PROSELYTATION
> 
> ...




*PROSELYTIZATION* 

But a classic nonetheless.

jog on
d998


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

> Hi...can't quite bring myself to refer to you as snake pliskin




What`s wrong with SP?  

You can call me John Smith if you like.  



> And... IMO the reason we don't get it right, is because being the egotistical creatures we are we think it all begins and ends with us...we are just so wonderful/clever/resourceful...[u get my point] how can it not.
> cheers..




Isn`t that survival, after all we are animals not divine immortal souls...



> thanks for giving us/me your opinion




You are welcome


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

oooh, Rafa, you're making me sound like Bullmarket.   

Sorry you feel I'm preaching, just putting a point of view cross, which I feel has been pretty measured and politely constructed. Sorry you seem to take this so personally. 

And to put the record straight, I am not an Atheist, nor probably a Agnostic. I am me. Exploring life for what it is and not relying on any single opinion to define myself or my beliefs. This is very difficult because it's hard to have an original idea in this world. I am searching, and if you provide me with some interesting words I will assess them carefully and see if they make any logical sence to me. Everyone has some great stuff to add here. I'm happy to read anything you have and have enjoyed thinking about your comments.  

And this is the general forum isn't it? If you want to just read about the market, stick to those threads. Just an idea though.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Ha, ha, of course it all matters. Matters more than ever. Everything I do now effects me and those around me and the environment. It's that perspective that makes me want to be the best person I can be for all concerned.
> 
> As has been mentioned on this thread, there is nothing magical about our being other than we are an incredible complex organism driven by vitamins, minerals, water and oxygen. We don't fully understand our system and how it operates yet but we are getting there. Mapping the genome has been a huge leap, and undertstanding memory will be another step. But it's all ultimately just electrical impulses generated by chemical reactions throughout the body. Incredible, but I'd want to get to the bottom of the biological complex before I start believing in ghosts.



Hi ya..looks like this stock forum debate is relieving a lot of tension  ....gives me a break from trying to learn how to analyse those darsdedly charts anyway....  
I for one would not like to live in a world riddled with soul-less clones of you and me [and everyone else]...and that would be the outcome of all this genome research..do u think?...I for one am a firm believer in continued searching however way we might go about it, we just have to watch how we use the knowledge.....
re: 'no soul'.....what stands true for one stands true for all!
cheers... P.S.....how r u doing on the challenge?


----------



## roger_leong (4 July 2006)

It might have been that the trees are incarnated into humans   



			
				Blitzed said:
			
		

> If the bible is true and Adam and Eve were the first, where did Cain and Able come from? And who did they have kids with?
> 
> If we came from monkeys how come we still have monkeys and not something inbetween, you would think by now they would have evolved more.
> 
> And how come the earths population is growing. If reincarnation was true then it would stay the same would it not? Just Adam and Eve dying and being reborn.


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Which challenge Nelly? Stock picking comp? Ok I think. I have DIO up about 10% I think

It's funny how we all assume that no 'soul' is a bad thing. How come? I think 'personality' is just as rich and interesting as a soul. And believing that the earth is intertwined and all that occurrs effects another is incredible. We are an amazing specimen and I look in wonder every day at human beings and nature and how it all coexists. Incredible. The amazing organic tapestry of life.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> What`s wrong with SP?
> 
> You can call me John Smith if you like.
> 
> ...



Hi S.P.  
.......I always thought I WAS a divine immortal creature..


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

Rafa,

Comments from you. Just highlighting as I see it.



> Now as long as we can leave it at that, and not get you atheist preachers vehemently spreading your beliefs on this forum....




Atheists, as do beleivers in god through religions have a right to talk about their beliefs.



> He has his belief, but is happy to accept that in the end, that is just it... someone's beliefs’. And each one is entitled to their own, irrespective of the logic behind it!




Can you accept Kennas' belief then?




> You on the other hand, have been the one smashing the views of those who believe in religion and seem adamant to impose your point of view on others....




Are you not doing this?



> I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself kennas and your motivation behind all your posts, both on this topic and on others... maybe you are an atheist preacher... I don't know, but you certainly come across as one...!




Not to throw fuel on the fire but isn`t this what you are doing? I enjoy Kennas' posts whether I agree or disagree. 

Rafa I'm genuinly interested in your religion. Feel free to tell me.  No pressure though. 

Snake


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi S.P.
> .......I always thought I WAS a divine immortal creature..




Oh, ok. :blover: 
John Smith


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Come on, no flirting! Maybe that's another thread.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Which challenge Nelly? Stock picking comp? Ok I think. I have DIO up about 10% I think
> 
> It's funny how we all assume that no 'soul' is a bad thing. How come? I think 'personality' is just as rich and interesting as a soul. And believing that the earth is intertwined and all that occurrs effects another is incredible. We are an amazing specimen and I look in wonder every day at human beings and nature and how it all coexists. Incredible. The amazing organic tapestry of life.



Hey Kennas..
'no soul' IS a bad thing... IMO.
It is what makes me, who I am, our personalities are an outward manifestation of our souls..IMHO
Do u think we/the earth/our solar system is here because of a collection of accidental happenings......
Do the maths...what do the numbers look like...{I wouldn't presume to know, but I would think it highly improbable]
Cheers... :alcohol:


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

The numbers are 1 in 10 to the power of 100. That's a big number! 

A very famous physicist called Paul Davies from Adelaide (of all places) won the equivalent of the Nobel Prise for religion a number of years ago for proving it statistically impossible for the earth to exist without a designer. This was probably the basis of ID, which is actually outlawed from most school curriculums.

Nevertheless, there is still a _chance _ that it just happened by accident. Perhaps we'll find out in the next world!   

Or when those pesky aliens decide to engage us and tell us about the rest of the universe!


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hey Kennas..
> 'no soul' IS a bad thing... IMO.
> It is what makes me, who I am, our personalities are an outward manifestation of our souls..IMHO
> Do u think we/the earth/our solar system is here because of a collection of accidental happenings......
> ...




It`s funny you bring that up. I read some material about GOD and some believe the universe is one big computer, and we are all parts in it that is operated by some THING. The mind boggles at such an idea.

"The mind of God by Paul Davies" penguin books.


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Sorry you feel I'm preaching, just putting a point of view cross, which I feel has been pretty measured and politely constructed.
> 
> ......
> 
> And to put the record straight, I am not an Atheist, nor probably a Agnostic. I am me. Exploring life for what it is and not relying on any single opinion to define myself or my beliefs.





No need to apologise, but you do sound you are preaching because you simply repeat the same old 'logic' arguement time and time and again... when all the questions we are dealing with are matters of Faith, not logic... 


Religion and religious words are not about logical sense, they are about finding a way to live in harmony with other human beings.


If you really are what you say you are... i.e. exploring life for what it is.... allow me to suggest one thing....

FORGET ABOUT LOGIC!   

Otherwise you'll end up a disconsolate grumpy old person cause not much in this world, let alone the universe makes any sense at all!

A classic example of this is the stock market itself... which is why we are on this forum... trying to make logical sense of it all....
If you are a technical analyst.... go with the trend!
If you are a fundamental anaylst... go where theres value....!

Whose right, Whose wrong.... who cares.... But let me repeat what WayneL said...


> There is happiness in trying to do good (this is demonstrable). So whether at death we turn to dust, or live on as some sort of spirit, the human being should just try to do good and respect life....




and let me just add... respect others opinions, no matter how illogical they are.... it will indeed be a sad day if we all had the same opinions!


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Come on, no flirting! Maybe that's another thread.



Hi ya all
Sorry .....couldn't help myself...S.P. left it wide open...... :couch


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Hey Rafa, I am actually quite a content and happy person.   

And remember the thread is 'does reincarnation exist' which is not just a theological question. It's asking for a comment either way. I'm taking your dispised 'logic' approach. Logic says it probably doesn't. That's my point. Again, sorry.  :


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi ya all
> Sorry .....couldn't help myself...S.P. left it wide open...... :couch




I'm happily married thanks.:aus:


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

Snake....



			
				Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Rafa,
> Atheists, as do beleivers in god through religions have a right to talk about their beliefs.
> Can you accept Kennas' belief then?




Most certainly, I accept it, without agreeing with it of course.




			
				Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Are you not doing this?




Am I?




			
				Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Not to throw fuel on the fire but isn`t this what you are doing? I enjoy Kennas' posts whether I agree or disagree.
> 
> Rafa I'm genuinly interested in your religion. Feel free to tell me.  No pressure though.
> 
> Snake




Precisely, we are all preachers of our point of view... its hypocritical to only call people with religious beliefs prechers! That is the point I am trying to make!

For the record, I am Christian.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> It`s funny you bring that up. I read some material about GOD and some believe the universe is one big computer, and we are all parts in it that is operated by some THING. The mind boggles at such an idea.



That was on a re-run of Dr Who.. :twak:


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> I'm happily married thanks.:aus:



Hi ya S.P.
[Tongue in cheek]....oh male ego is a weird and wonderful thing...it was Kennas comment about the flirting......love ya


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

Rafa,


> For the record, I am Christian




..a Christian.  For the record I don`t judge you any differently.

Regards
Snake


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Hey Rafa, I am actually quite a content and happy person.
> 
> And remember the thread is 'does reincarnation exist' which is not just a theological question. It's asking for a comment either way. I'm taking your dispised 'logic' approach. Logic says it probably doesn't. That's my point. Again, sorry.  :




I never doubted that you weren’t content or happy.... My point was that if you continue to base all your decisions on logic, then there is a good chance you won't be in the future.... nothing logical about human behaviour that’s for sure.

On the topic of the thread.... Yes, I don't think re-incarnation exists either, my opinion is based on faith rather than logic.

However, I am certainly not going to try and prove that re-incarnation doesn't exist, just as I don't wish to prove that heaven does/doesn't exist, GOD does/doesn't exist, etc... 

And I certainly don't intend on writing logical theorems to prove my opinion one way or another and try and convince people that I am right/wrong!

PS: Thanks Snake


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi ya S.P.
> [Tongue in cheek]....oh male ego is a weird and wonderful thing...it was Kennas comment about the flirting......love ya




Yes but I am very good looking and have a ... t snake.  

You can flirt with me anytime Nelly.  Actually I was being silly, no intentions at all. 

Read Paul Davies book the mind of God. Dr Who is a legend.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> The numbers are 1 in 10 to the power of 100. That's a big number!
> 
> A very famous physicist called Paul Davies from Adelaide (of all places) won the equivalent of the Nobel Prise for religion a number of years ago for proving it statistically impossible for the earth to exist without a designer. This was probably the basis of ID, which is actually outlawed from most school curriculums.
> 
> ...



If you are interested, and it isn't about numbers [sorry]..you are very astute by the way..you could perhaps if you are inclined read "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren....it is an easy read and has some interesting.. IMO...answers to the question, "What am I here for?".....just for a different perspective....  
Cheers...p.s. Thorton seem to have it all sewn up {the challenge} He must be a freak! :dunno:


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

He was cheating though!! 

Book sounds interesting, will add it to the list.

I'm trying to write my own on all this garbage, but I am being distracted by this forum!


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Yes but I am very good looking and have a ... t snake.
> 
> You can flirt with me anytime Nelly.  Actually I was being silly, no intentions at all.
> 
> Read Paul Davies book the mind of God. Dr Who is a legend.



I'm CRUSHED...DR WHO isn't REAL!!  
Thanks for the referral, I'll look out for it...I'm a 'baby' christian so to speak and appreciate any input....Bill Hybels isn't too un-interesting....
hint: if it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck........if it sounded like I was flirting......
Me too...no intentions..


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> He was cheating though!!
> 
> Book sounds interesting, will add it to the list.
> 
> I'm trying to write my own on all this garbage, but I am being distracted by this forum!



Did you write while you were in the army as well?
Tell me how thorton is cheating, then I could do it too..teehee


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

Some of the Army experiences are in there, but it's fiction really. A travel book with the main character travelling around the world seeing these amazing things and meeting all these incredible people with specific insights into how the world works. The characters are based on historical figures like JC, Muhummad, The Buddha, Dr Who, Rafa, Wayne, etc. Topics like those discussed in this forum will all be attacked. Will have to add in a Snake and a Nelly now.....

Thorton uses his 100K to buy things that wil move on the day without any regard to the actual volume of trade. He did try to adjust to make it fair, but I'm not sure how much he adjusted. Bloody amazing effort though!


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

It sounds interesting.......have you read a lot about any one subject, or is it  more from a personal perspective?
Will we get a cut...? :topic  :


----------



## Sean K (4 July 2006)

It solves all the worlds problems of course!   

Including if reincarnation actually exists. (back on topic)

It's pretty average really. Almost unreadable.


----------



## nelly (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> It solves all the worlds problems of course!
> 
> Including if reincarnation actually exists. (back on topic)
> 
> It's pretty average really. Almost unreadable.



 I find it surprising that you would think your writings to be un-readable.I also find it surprising  that some one as intelligent and articulate as yourself would have such a 'clinical' opinion on the subject of soul-no soul/ faith-beliefs.
I think the subject quite confronting and that listening to others is stimulating, *especially* when their opinions/beliefs differ so greatly from my own.[i'm sure you are the same]
So thanks for the in-put..  
If your book gets published, and I have no doubt you have the courage to do that, I hope it all goes well. I personally would like to do a childrens book someday.


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Some of the Army experiences are in there, but it's fiction really. A travel book with the main character travelling around the world seeing these amazing things and meeting all these incredible people with specific insights into how the world works. The characters are based on historical figures like JC, Muhummad, The Buddha, Dr Who, Rafa, Wayne, etc. Topics like those discussed in this forum will all be attacked. Will have to add in a Snake and a Nelly now.....





I knew there is more to you that your ravings on the virtues of logic    
I am not really that anti-logic, i am an engineer by profession and love science and maths...!

anyway, its great to hear you are writing a book... AWESOME, i look forward to reading it when it comes out.... or for that matter, even before its published...


----------



## wayneL (4 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> ...WayneL point of view (even tho he doesn't believe in a God)




Whoa there Saphire! I never said that. I just don't buy religions image of God.

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (4 July 2006)

ducati916 said:
			
		

> *PROSELYTIZATION*
> 
> But a classic nonetheless.
> 
> ...




Thank you, I am a stickler for spelling, but often fall well short of my own standards.

Peace


----------



## Rafa (4 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Whoa there Saphire! I never said that. I just don't buy religions image of God.
> 
> Cheers



Whoops.... Sorry for the misinterpretation... Regardless, still agree with your point of view....


----------



## nelly (5 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Whoa there Saphire! I never said that. I just don't buy religions image of God.
> 
> Cheers



Mornin' Wayne..
.....'religions.'.... Anyone in particular or all of them? I used to think [when it didn't hurt so much] that MY God was one that existed by my set of rules.......I consider myself not so naive now......[someone is going to comment on the 'naive']...  
I'd be interested to hear your opinion
Cheers...


----------



## ghotib (5 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> The numbers are 1 in 10 to the power of 100. That's a big number!
> 
> A very famous physicist called Paul Davies from Adelaide (of all places) won the equivalent of the Nobel Prise for religion a number of years ago for proving it statistically impossible for the earth to exist without a designer. This was probably the basis of ID, which is actually outlawed from most school curriculums.



With respect kennas, I think this misrepresents Paul Davies' work and I'm sure that his work is not the basis of "ID". This link is to Davies' address on receiving the Templeton Prize, which I think is the one you're talking about (?) http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508/davies.html
You can see from this that Davies' idea about purposive design in the universe is a long way from any kind of creationism, even though he's sometimes cited as a scientist who supports Intelligent Design. I don't know whether he's done any statistical work on the probability of earth's existence, but I'm pretty confident that if he did it was not the reason he was awarded this prize.

Here's a couple of paragraphs from that address.



> Where do we human beings fit into this great cosmic scheme? Can we gaze out into the cosmos, as did our remote ancestors, and declare: "God made all this for us"? I think not. Are we then but an accident of nature, the freakish outcome of blind and purposeless forces, incidental by- product of a mindless, mechanistic universe? I reject that, too. The emergence of life and consciousness, I maintain, are written into the laws of the universe in a very basic way. True, the actual physical form and general mental make-up of Homo sapiens contain many accidental features of no particular significance. If the universe were rerun a second time, there would be no solar system, no Earth, and no people. But the emergence of life and consciousness somewhere and somewhen in the cosmos is, I believe, assured by the underlying laws of nature. The origin of life and consciousness were not interventionist miracles, but nor were they stupendously improbable accidents. They were, I believe, part of the natural outworking of the laws of nature, and as such our existence as conscious enquiring beings springs ultimately from the bedrock of physical existence-those ingenious, felicitous laws. That is the sense in which I wrote in The Mind of God: "We are truly meant to be here." I mean "we" in the sense of conscious beings, not Homo sapiens specifically. Thus although we are not at the center of the universe, human existence does have a powerful wider significance. Whatever the universe as a whole may be about, the scientific evidence suggests that we, in some limited yet ultimately still profound way, are an integral part of its purpose.
> 
> How can we test these ideas scientifically? One of the great challenges to science is to understand the nature of consciousness in general and human consciousness in particular. We still have no clue how mind and matter are related, or what process led to the emergence of mind from matter in the first place. This is an area of research that is attracting considerable attention at present, and for my part I intend to pursue my own research in this field. I expect that when we do come to understand how consciousness fits into the physical universe, my contention that mind is an emergent and in principle predictable product of the laws of the universe will be borne out.




Ghoti


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Mornin' Wayne..
> .....'religions.'.... Anyone in particular or all of them? I used to think [when it didn't hurt so much] that MY God was one that existed by my set of rules.......I consider myself not so naive now......[someone is going to comment on the 'naive']...
> I'd be interested to hear your opinion
> Cheers...




In all religions where God is named/defined, God is personified with human charactaristics... jealosy, anger, revenge, racism, need to be worshipped, etc.

I don't buy it. I have my own ideas of course, but am humble enough to realise that it is my own construction from my imagination. 

I contend that any human ideas about God can only be a construction. Hence the very foundation of religious dogma could be entirely wrong.


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## Sean K (5 July 2006)

Wayne, I agree with you in regard to the construction of the idea of 'God' here. I am sure no two people on the planet could describe God in the same way. This is one of the Mystics approach to God: It is a totally individual experience.


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> In all religions where God is named/defined, God is personified with human charactaristics... jealosy, anger, revenge, racism, need to be worshipped, etc.
> 
> I don't buy it. I have my own ideas of course, but am humble enough to realise that it is my own construction from my imagination.
> 
> I contend that any human ideas about God can only be a construction. Hence the very foundation of religious dogma could be entirely wrong.



mornin' Wayne..
Theoretically.......if you believe in God as the Creator...wouldn't it be possible that he give you like character traits. And a handbook? 
...theoretically of course....
Cheers


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## Sean K (5 July 2006)

Ghotib,

Yes, sorry, my comments are a bit haphazzard there.

The numbers are not from Davies work, I read that somewhere else, possibly a Personal Investor magazine   ......didn't mean to link them here.

I also didn't mean to say that it was Davies that started the theory of ID, that goes back pre Socrates. Aristotle, kept the ball rolling with his idea of an 'unmoved mover' who was the 'first cause' of everything. With our current understanding of the world, eveything needs an original source. Things can't possibly exist forever? So, the conclusion is that there is something we do not understand yet. All we know is that it has existed forever. Unless we start making stuff out of nothing.....

I'm not exatly sure which book contained the ideas Davies was presented his award for. What I remember is that he's a Physicist and was presented an award for his work to religion by his conclusions that it's scientifically impossible for the universe to be an accident.  I haven't read the one you quoted from. I have only read his 'God and the New Physics' which I gave to a friend a while ago and can't quote from here. I need to study up a bit more on his work obviously.....

So, what was the 'first cause'? Or, did it all start from nothing? Impossible.


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Wayne, I agree with you in regard to the construction of the idea of 'God' here. I am sure no two people on the planet could describe God in the same way. This is one of the Mystics approach to God: It is a totally individual experience.



Morning Kennas,
A comment on the individual experience.....the first thing a christian comes to understand is that it is basically *all* about the personal experience, whether that is termed mystical,fantastical..........the most pragmatic,grounded in the real world people have surprised me in regards to their faith.
Cheers


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## Sean K (5 July 2006)

Hey Nelly,

If it's personal experience why have _organised_ religion??


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Hey Nelly,
> 
> If it's personal experience why have _organised_ religion??



Kennas I can't and wouldn't presume to answer for anyone else on this one, but IMO it is not about 'organised'... more like..like minded[in faith] people supporting each other, even the most devout have problems with faith, [usually to do with focus] living in the world today who wouldn't? I do not agree with a lot of things people have done and will continue to do in the name of their faith, but that is driven by *man* not from anything in the Bible..[I only have a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible atm regards to quotes]
I used to have the mindset that ALL the different faiths were a load of ####
because of what I perceived them to be all about, you know...you just have to look at history. And they could never answer a straight question..fantastical..yes.
There is nothing in the Bible that says any of it was 'the way'...man has twisted and bent the Word to his own means, to satisfy what ever...greed, ego...
I couldn't even begin to presume I could have a theological discussion with [much as I would like to think I could  ] anyone, but I could refer you to a site www.godswordforyou.com the author is a Rosemary Bardsley she speaks plainly and simply and answered a lot of my questions. 
Another good one is a book by Morison Frank a person who set out to dis-prove the Bible and came to believe himself it's titled "Who moved the stone"
The one thing I can say is to keep it simple and don't get caught up in the 'slants' that man puts on Gospel.
I suppose the trick is to read it.
Good to hear your views...Thanks


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

...the kidz r driving me NUTZ  ........where's that masking tape.  .......................I'll b lookin forward to reading everyones comments.......later   
Cheers


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## Rafa (5 July 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> The one thing I can say is to keep it simple and don't get caught up in the 'slants' that man puts on Gospel.
> I suppose the trick is to read it.





Well said Nelly,

I think its important to read it for yourself... 
In particular... I would suggest reading the first 4 books of the New Testament, commonly called the GOSPELS.... This is as close an account as you can get about Jesus' life and teachings and is what true Christianity 'should be' based on! There is no mention of revenge, of violence, of warmongering.... rather how to live your life, in union with GOD and your NEIGHBOUR...

IMHO you should forget about the rest of the Bible as that is more the history of Israel and Judaism (Old Testament) and then further writings by followers of Jesus later on... (rest of the New Testament)... and are what I would considers MAN's twist on Gods Word!

For those who don't beleive in GOD, read the GOSPELS, but ignore the GOD references.... what do you have left... Do unto others as you would like others do unto you.... 

AMAZING.... who would have thought of that!!!


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## It's Snake Pliskin (5 July 2006)

> For those who don't beleive in GOD, read the GOSPELS, but ignore the GOD references.... what do you have left... Do unto others as you would like others do unto you....




I think all atheists could learn something from it.


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## Rafa (5 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> I think all atheists could learn something from it.




I would say even those religious/religions/sects who follow ancient texts rather literally could learn something from it too...


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> I would say even those religious/religions/sects who follow ancient texts rather literally could learn something from it too...



Hi Rafa....thanks for the feed-back.

I don't like to refer to myself using the terms 'religion'..'religious' it is more a life style/choice. The reason being is when certain terms are used in conversation like Jesus, God, Faith or church people tend to stereotype. And it is not usual for it to be favourable.......so sad to say, unless I know someone well I refrain from sharing this part of my life.....[you guys are different, after all I can turn you all off  ] What do you all think?
Cheers


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

Quote...IMHO you should forget about the rest of the Bible as that is more the history of Israel and Judaism (Old Testament) and then further writings by followers of Jesus later on... (rest of the New Testament)... and are what I would considers MAN's twist on Gods Word!

Hi Rafa, I quite enjoy reading the old testament, [maybe it is because I'm a closet sci/fi fan]...jokes aside I have to have it all... the beginning even if it is hard going, gives me more of an understanding of the whole.
I actually think there is something in there about re-incarnation....not really just thought I better get back on topic.
Cheers....Go the Maroons!!!!!  
QLD 4  NSW 4  Half-Time


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## Rafa (5 July 2006)

The old testament is a great read... its drama, history, adventure, passion, betrayal, murder, struggle, war, all in all, an saga of epic proportions....

No problem reading it, Just don't take it literally and use it as a way to live your life.... thats all i'm saying...


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## nelly (5 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> The old testament is a great read... its drama, history, adventure, passion, betrayal, murder, struggle, war, all in all, an saga of epic proportions....
> 
> No problem reading it, Just don't take it literally and use it as a way to live your life.... thats all i'm saying...



Hi...What I got out of it was that us/we humans haven't changed much..we all have the same reactions/emotions to the fast balls life throws at us.
Cheers...ps I am happy QLD 16   NSW 14 [irrelevant I know]


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## blinkybill (9 July 2006)

hmmm, interesting thread. i don't think reincarnation exists in the spirit world but it definately exists on chat sites where you can come back as often as you like as whoever you like. how many of you have registered more than 1 nic?


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## Joe Blow (9 July 2006)

blinkybill said:
			
		

> hmmm, interesting thread. i don't think reincarnation exists in the spirit world but it definately exists on chat sites where you can come back as often as you like as whoever you like. how many of you have registered more than 1 nic?




Some have tried Blinky but as soon as multiple usernames are discovered, all of them are permanently banned. There is zero tolerance for this kind of behaviour on ASF and we run checks on IP addresses regularly to determine if people are using more than one username.


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## blinkybill (9 July 2006)

but a friend of mine who runs a chat website once told me its impossible to stop multiple registrations from pc's with dynamic ip addresses as opposed to static ip addresses or from public pc's or even some people sharing nics.


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## Joe Blow (9 July 2006)

blinkybill said:
			
		

> but a friend of mine who runs a chat website once told me its impossible to stop multiple registrations from pc's with dynamic ip addresses as opposed to static ip addresses or from public pc's or even some people sharing nics.




I wont go into it in much detail as it is off topic with regards to this thread and I do not want to reveal too much but lets just say that in the vast majority of cases those who do register more than one username eventually slip up and are discovered. And as I have already stated it is cause to be permanently banned from this site so in the end it is hardly worth the trouble.


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## professor_frink (10 July 2006)

blinkybill said:
			
		

> hmmm, interesting thread. i don't think reincarnation exists in the spirit world but it definately exists on chat sites where you can come back as often as you like as whoever you like. how many of you have registered more than 1 nic?




unfortunately there are some sad and lonely people that don't have anything productive to do with their time, so they spend that time annoying people in internet forums with multiple identities


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## Julia (10 July 2006)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> unfortunately there are some sad and lonely people that don't have anything productive to do with their time, so they spend that time annoying people in internet forums with multiple identities




Agreed.  Probably we should feel rather sorry for them.

Julia


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## blinkybill (16 July 2006)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> unfortunately there are some sad and lonely people that don't have anything productive to do with their time, so they spend that time annoying people in internet forums with multiple identities




Reading through various threads I see you spend a hell of a lot more time chatting in here than I do so I asume you are referring to yourself above  but I don't feel sorry for you at all.

What I was saying earlier about having multiple registrations is that for scrupleless rampers it is very easy, especially if they have dynamic ip addresses, to have multiple nics and so they can talk up a stock in chatrooms using multiple registrations from various ip addresses while making it look like 2 or more different people are posting when it is really one person ramping.


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## professor_frink (16 July 2006)

blinkybill said:
			
		

> Reading through various threads I see you spend a hell of a lot more time chatting in here than I do so I asume you are referring to yourself above  but I don't feel sorry for you at all.




Nor should you feel sorry for me bull, sorry, bill.


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