# Gann forecasts/real time trades



## robertgordon (29 December 2010)

Over the next few weeks I will endeavour to post some real time trades and Commodity forecasts that are   based on the Principles and Timing Techniques of WD Gann . 
Tonight we should see Lumber trade lower than than the 27th December Top 316 .
We can see that Time has moved beyond 180 degrees  from the 23rd June 2010 Low and  the current price of 316 is trading below the 45 degree angle . Time has also balanced from the Nov 4th Top to Nov 30th Low which equals 26 degrees , if we project 26 degrees out from Nov 30th we come close to balancing time into the 27th December Top 316 . Over the next few days I will try and gauge how far we can expect this move to run down . rgds Robertgordon


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## tech/a (29 December 2010)

Chart would be nice.


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## Frank D (29 December 2010)

Most people don’t understand Gann, so if you are going to start a thread it’s best
 to accompany any analysis with charts or other illustrations.

Otherwise it makes no sense, and you’ll be ripped apart by all those that think Gann is
 a load of dogs vomit. 

Entry set-ups also help ( no need for trade management rules).

BTW.. not sure how many Aussie traders trade lumber.


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## TulipFX (29 December 2010)

Gann's will was worth $US150,000 when he died. Quite a bit of money in those days, but far short of the tens of millions is followers claim he made.

Quite a bit of conjecture exists, but many believe Gann made most of his money marketing his 'systems' rather then trading the market. His son John, actually stated that his father was a unsuccessful trader.

He was ahead of his time in many ways. Scientifically studying markets as well as marketing those methods. If he was the great market analyst many now claim he was is a debatable topic.


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## robertgordon (29 December 2010)

Everyone has a different viewpoint on Gann but I think it is appropriate that if one really wants to learn the Principles and Timing Techniques of Gann you need to dedicate  quite a considerable amount of time and effort into  researching his material and re piecing it togethor to understand and identify the mechanisms  behind his trading decisions . For a start have a look at his extensive body of work and courses that he produced throughout his life . His Books include How to make profits in Commodities . Truth of the stocktape Wall St Selector and 45 years in Wall Street and Tunnel through the Air . For those who havent conducted a detailed and thorough examination into the works and principles of Gann it would be an obvious and naive assumption to think that all of his works were published for the sole purpose of generating a line of income . So lets look at the facts and his trading records and let those statistics speak for themselves . In 1939 Ganns courses were very expensive with  the  Master Forecasting Method Course selling for 2500.00 and in addition to that his Complete Market Forecasting Course was reputedly sold for around 5000.00 so yes these are very expensive prices to pay back in 1939 . Below I have listed some of Ganns forecasts and trades so that people can gain a better and more well informed perspective  into  Gann and his trading records which are based upon fact . My objective in opening up this thread is to use Ganns Timing Techniques and The Principles of Natural Law as the fundamental element on which to base my forecasts and Trade decisions . Please appreciate that in some instances or examples I will not be able to provide or choose not to provide a detailed explanation into what I have learnt or publicly divulge specific trade mechanics but I will endeavour to do my best and put forward a rigorous mechanical explanation . there will be mistakes and stopouts and some forecasts might be out by a a day or two but I will do my best to keep focused and work in alignment with Gann and The Principles of Natural Law .  If you are serious in studying Gann you can find all of this within his courses letters and books . its all there and alot cheaper than 1939 prices . 








* During the month of October 1909 in twenty five market days Gann made in the presence of Representative ( Ticker and Investment Digest ) two hundred and eighty six transactions in various stocks on both the long and short side of the market . Two hundred and sixty four of these transactions resulted in profits and twenty two in losses . The capital with which he operated was doubled ten times so that at the end of the month he had one thousand per cent of his original margin . 

* In our presence we have seen him give in one day sixteen succesive orders in the same stock eight of which turned out to be at either the top or bottom eigth of that particular swing . the above we can positively verify . Such performances as these coupled with the foregoing are probably unparalleled in the history of the street .

*R.D. Wyckoff, witnessing the actions of Mr. Gann in 1909, wrote:
One of the most astonishing calculations made by Mr. Gann was during last summer (1909) when he predicted that September wheat would sell at $1.20. This meant that it must touch that price before the end of the month of September.
At twelve o'clock, Chicago time, on September 30th (the last day) the option was selling below $1.08, and it looked as though his prediction would not be fulfilled.
Mr. Gann said "if it does not touch $1.20 by the close of the market it will prove that there is something wrong with my whole method of calculation. I do not care what the price is now, it must go there." It is common history that September wheat surprised the whole country by selling at $1.20 and no higher in the very last hour of the trading, closing at that figure. In less than an hour and 15 minutes later it had moved from $1.07 all the way upwards to trade at W.D. Gann's predicted price of $1.20 and no higher.

*"Mr. Gann's calculations are based on natural law. I have followed Gann and his work closely for years. I know that he has a firm grasp of the basic principles which govern stock market movements, and I do not believe any other man can duplicate the idea or his method at the present time. Early this year, he figured that the top of the advance would fall on a certain day in August and calculated the prices at which the Dow Jones Averages would then stand. The market culminated on the exact day and within four-tenths of one percent of the figures predicted. You and W D Gann must have cleaned up considerable money on all these operations, was suggested.
Yes, we have made a great deal of money. Gann has taken half-million dollars out of the market in the past few years. I once saw him take $130, and in less than one month run it up to over $12,000. Gann can compound money faster than any man I have ever met.


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## tech/a (30 December 2010)

Charts would be good.
Much clearer.


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## robertgordon (31 December 2010)

Your request for a chart is appreciated although it is quite difficult to post one as I work between two mediums . The trading platform I am using is Gann Trader which is quite a cumbersome old programme that works on a DOS basis and doesnt have the capabilities or functions to take a screen shot and save it to a file . I have unsuccesfully tried to do this on several occasions and unlike mestastock it will not allow it but that doesnt matter as I can provide a detailed commentary on each trade or forecast that I am preparing . Lets not allow small trivial technicalities to interfere or detract from our analysis and besides I dont really like to post my charts and calculators within the public domain  . My decision to remain private in my research and calculations is not through that of ignorance but some of techniques and principles that I have discovered over years of patient and meticulous study have been deservedly achieved  and even though some of methods are consistently accurate in prognosticating  market turning points well in advance of the event taking place , sometimes in certain instances the calculations and alignment of time cycles into a projected date will not work out in the expected manner which is why I have a well structured trading plan laid out in advance that estimates projected risk on each trade and how I can exit that position if the market doesnt conform to my measures and principles . perhaps this is due to gaps within my knowledge base or lack of understanding certain sections , but sometimes I just sit back and wonder how Gann was able to consistently prognosticate nearly every turning point within the wheat or beans market before that physical movement actually took place with such a high degree of accuracy .

Gann said that all market movements occur as the result of a Natural Law and the Cause exists long before the Effect takes place and if we can identify and understand how those forces will exert themselves upon the market or a particular commodity then we can begin to build a conceptual framework into how these deterministic laws prevail and exert themselves upon certain instruments at a particular point in time . If we have the appropriate knowledge and imformation before us then we should be able to predict or estimate how this force or field of electromagnetic energy will impact the instrument under observation and whether it will have a positive or negative impact .

Being able to consistently predict accurate turning points within the soybean market or The FTSE is really only one part of the equation . Lets look at the Top on Lumber 27th December 316 1/4 . On this date certain Timing influences moved into directional alignment and cumulatively exerted their line of  influence on the Lumber Market so for an astute observer who is trained in the principles of Natural Law he was able to interpret this imformation and apply it to the movement in Lumber but these Laws are universal and can mostly be applied to almost anything , but picking the Top is only a small componet within the overall trade . how strong is the influence and how far in time can we expect this movement to decline before we can exit our position . How far in price will the movement carry down . and how much of this movement can we realisticly expect to capture . My initial estimate indicates that price could trade down into the 11th January before a mild upward swing which would provide us with a 14 - 15 day campaign  but at this point in time I dont have the knowledge or skills to estimate a price . 90 degrees = 298  180 degrees = 281  270 degrees = 265  and 360 degrees = 249 as potential estimates . From there you could project the Geometric Angles and note them as support points . I am also looking at a Top in the FTSE on the 31st December 2010 .


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## TabJockey (31 December 2010)

WALLS OF TEXT ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

Allot of us live fast paced lives and do not really have 90 minutes to read and decode your un-paragraphed text block which may or may not have any interesting information in it.

It would be nice to see some charts and some concise paragraphs!

No offense, I was really interested by the title but then got hit by THE WALL.


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## colion (31 December 2010)

robertgordon said:


> Your request for a chart is appreciated although it is quite difficult to post one as I work between two mediums . The trading platform I am using is Gann Trader which is quite a cumbersome old programme that works on a DOS basis and doesnt have the capabilities or functions to take a screen shot and save it to a file




You might consider using one of the free screen capture programs such as these:

www.picpick.org
http://www.irfanview.com/

There are many others which are easily found by Googling and they are quite easy to install and use.


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## robertgordon (31 December 2010)

I apologize if my writing style is not presented or laid out in a concise and structured manner but the essence or core principles that I am trying to convey are not all that difficult to comprehend . Yes they do require some input and calculations and it is not my intention to provide you with a wholesale dissemination into the techniques and the principles that I employ .  . The Geometric Angles that are used to measure the alignment between time and price can be calculated and projected ahead of time and Gann developed these moving averages back in the early 19th century without the aid of computers and calculators so . Ganns 45 degree angle assigns one unit of price to one unit of time so if the price of an instrument was up 180 days in 180 units of time price is up against the 45 degree angle which might indicate a possible change in trend if other timing factors were in alignment also but Time really is the most important factor . Ganns 22.5 degree angle or 1x2 angle means the price moves at 1/2 point per day so in 180 days in time price will be up 90 points in price or against the 22.5 degree angle . these are all fundamental measurements covered within his course in great detail and would be familiar to most Gann students . The numbers from 316 down to 249 are angular projections on the square of nine and represent ( possible ) points of support and resist which are setup just as a measurement card for future reference . Afull revolution or 360 degrees out out from 316 is 249 .


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## tech/a (31 December 2010)

Robert

A few of us here have traded long enough to enjoy simplified trading.
Gann/Elliott/Stadelmayer all are legitimate analysis tools.

As an inclusion isn't it simple enough to grab a chart and simply mark on it.
Expect price to stop and turn here and at here stop again where we can take profit.
Or whatever you want.Common this is the 2nd decade of the new millennium not 1940s
Gann would have been all over this stuff!!

Gann angles
Square of Nine
Degrees in time and price all very nice but 
Many of us are visual creatures.


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## sails (31 December 2010)

robertgordon said:


> I apologize if my writing style is not presented or laid out in a concise and structured manner but the essence or core principles that I am trying to convey are not all that difficult to comprehend . Yes they do require some input and calculations and it is not my intention to provide you with a wholesale dissemination into the techniques and the principles that I employ .  .
> 
> The Geometric Angles that are used to measure the alignment between time and price can be calculated and projected ahead of time and Gann developed these moving averages back in the early 19th century without the aid of computers and calculators so .
> 
> ...




Hi Robert,

Thanks for sharing your understanding of Gann... 

I have quoted your last post above and divided it up into paragraphs.  This is what some others here are suggesting rather than a "wall" of words.

To create double spacing for a new paragraph, just hit the "enter" key twice at the point you would like the new paragraph (e.g. after a full stop).  You will see from the above quote it makes reading much easier.

With fairly concise information, I would suggest keeping paragraphs reasonably short- maybe limit it it no more than 5 lines - just a suggestion...

Again, thanks for sharing and I trust the formatting issues don't discourage you...

PS: I have GannAnalyst so let me know if you need help with posting charts.


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## Ruby (31 December 2010)

robertgordon said:


> I apologize if my writing style is not presented or laid out in a concise and structured manner but the essence or core principles that I am trying to convey are not all that difficult to comprehend .




Hi Robert,

The principles you are trying to convey may not be difficult to comprehend, but your writing style is.   Presumably you want people to read what you write, so why not make it more reader-friendly by starting a new paragraph each time there is a new thought?

If you do that I might be inclined to take some interest in what you have to say.

Ruby


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## robertgordon (31 December 2010)

Nice cat Ruby . My friend has one identical called Bubbles and he is approaching 17 years old . I suppose in the eye of the practitioner all analytical techniques are credible and as Tech has pointed out it is very important to keep your approach as simple as possible and ensure that you have a comprehensive and intuitive understanding of the techniques or methods that you employ and how they perform over a range of market conditions .  Whether you are looking to trade counter trend reactions within an established long pull trend utilizing the retracement levels and timing projections of RN Elliot as your primary trading mechanism , at least you are approaching the market with a well constructed plan that would incorporate risk assesment on the given trade , what stage of the market are looking to trade and how far can you expect price to move against you before you activate your stops and or if you have a re entry strategy . 

I think it is very important to differentiate and recognise the difference between a forward  point in time that is projected on a purely arbitrary basis . What I mean by this is just beacause a stock has a historical tendency to turn trend every 30 days doesnt neccesarily mean that it is an absolute timing mechanism because you are really only observing the effect and therefore you are only seeing one side of the equation without developing an understanding into the underlying principles and force structures that actually cause the market to change trend at that given point in time .
This is what Gann was doing , he was studying  and projecting forward timing points in wheat or corn based on a detailed examination of causes , the cause exists long before the effect takes place and it is just as easy to go forward 30 days or one year and look for symetrical alignment between timing and price co ordinates but gee it is hard . it is akin to looking at the face of a watch and you can see the minute and hourly hands and the seconds ticking past but as the watch is a closed mechanism you  cant see or understand the timing mechanics unless you take the case off the watch and peer inside and then we can truly identify and understand the magnetics or revoultions that really create time . 

Just because Corn is 90 days from low to high doesnt necesarily constitute a change in trend although this is  one quarter of the earths revolution and sometimes important timing points to co incide with winter or summer equinox points . The proportionate parts of the circle are an important timing mechanism and when multiple civil time frames move into directional alignment it is an important place to look for a possible change in trend but still we are not investigating the natural principles of cause that determine prices to top and bottom and Gann did leave clues and imformation on how he applied these elements but its a long and tedious process to fit the pieces togethor and if you think it is more important and pertinent  to discuss or restructure my writing style than discuss timing techniques and natural law you are really just treading water and have no interest in Gann which is the way he intended somewhat .


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## robertgordon (1 January 2011)

Sugar 29.50  30th December should turn out to be Low .


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## tech/a (1 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> Sugar 29.50  30th December should turn out to be Low .




That's much better very easy to see what your getting at.
But again a chart would be nice----Is this the low you mean?

Click to expand





Application of analysis is always a biggie in my view.
Many analysts supply pages of Rhetoric and no trading application of analysis.
In the absence of any suggestion of a trading method here I'll suggest the following.
Robert feel free to suggest another way of taking advantage of Gann Analysis.

So right now on next open you'd be going long
Would you have a stop?
Would you have a price target?
How many contracts would you trade?


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## Jadel (1 January 2011)

I believe Gann died a pauper according to a written acount by his son.


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## tech/a (1 January 2011)

There is all sorts of speculation re Gann.

Even so it has an allure for many traders as a forecasting tool.
Which when applied to the market can have profitable effects on your trading.

I'm yet to see a practical demonstration of the application of the so called "Art" of Gann Analysis
over 15 yrs what I've seen so far results in nothing more than mass confusion (Often on the presenters part)---a myriad of "Pressure Points" and a complete lack of trading application of the method into any meaningful long term profitable trading methodology.

Perhaps Robert will be the first!


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## Boggo (1 January 2011)

> TXN ..... looking for a positive time cycle to close the week,
> *just ahead of anticipated testing results, from their current well.*
> 
> =====





That quote is from a post on another Gann thread.
Obviously Gann only works in conjunction with upcoming news, it makes it redundant really other than calling a possible run up a "positive time cycle".

I made a genuine attempt to get my head around Gann a few years ago and asked some basic questions on another thread about entries, stops and targets etc but I all I ever got was positive and negative time cycle commentaries so I gave up on it.

I would still like to see someone post some day to day practical trading approach examples just to demonstrate a basic hands on application of the process.

Just my


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## robertgordon (1 January 2011)

Thanks for the comments and I will endeavour to reply to everyone . The observation on Sugar was a bit late after the fact , its something that just caught my eye and as I havent done any analysis on it in any depth and wasnt prepared for the trade I wont be trading it but I do have some forecast dates here that i will be posting ahead of time for particular commodities , mainly soybeans , wheat , corn and perhaps cotton so just bear with me for a few days and I will place the forecast date up ahead of time and let you know whether I am expecting a low or a high to come in on that date and in some cases i might be able to project how far i expect the movement to carry in time . Forward calculation of time is a little more difficult but i do have instruments that will provide me with two or three anticipated price points on where i can expect the move to terminate and these are based on angular and geometric calculations . Usually one to two days before the movement I can narrow the price down to one or two points and if everything is in alignment there is a good chance that it may hit that point but mainly work out Time first and zero in on price right at the last minute.

Sugar is one that i look at from time to time but as you can see the moves are pretty choppy , the first selloff in two days ran down 8.09 and after that it took another month or so to regain that move and then just sold off 5.27 in a few days so yeah sugar has the tendency to reverse its gains very quickly so I am going to make a detailed examination of the causes that forced sugar to selloff so rapidly and see what i come up but please appreciate that i wont be detailing my findings publicly , but i will share the mechanical and geometric approach , all this is in Ganns courses .
From the 17th November Low to the 30th Low is 45 days or 1/8 of a circle which is an important fixed cycle and in some cases when you have a 90 30 and 45 degree timing alignment from several pivots it can indicate an important change in trend but a detailed examination into the principles of natural law will reveal the correct cause behind the effect . The 29.50 Low on Sugar is under the 45 deg angle by 30c . 
So yeah a bit late on Sugar but thaty doesnt matter as I have three high magnitude turning points coming up so will just focus on those as well as managing Lumber trade .
Tech , if i was to trade the sugar move and i had the 30th listed as a turning date i think i could get very close to the low on that date trading on an intraday chart using the circle of 24 as an inner timing mechanism but as the price has moved a bit to far off the low my risk has increased too much and i wouldnt feel comfortable having a wide stop off that 29.50 low , its after the fact and i missed it but thats fine there are always opportunities around the corner.

Now to the Turkey who made such a wonderful contribution stating that Gann died a pauper , I am not sure there are conflicting reports that he only had 150K left et etc but if you pull your head out of the sand and read the detailed forecasts and real time trades that were witnessed by officials of the Ticker Digest back in 1909 you will see that his record of 286 trades is a world record and has not been beaten up till this day .Another important point that I havent mentioned is Gann accurately predicted the Top of the Index in September 1929 . This forecast was made in August 1928 well in advance of one of the biggest selloffs in history . So if you enjoy your five minutes of fame on this forum taking two line potshots at some who has long past it might be advisable to study his records and forecasts in detail and then you can make a decision on his accuracy and mathematical ability . there a heaps of  mushrooms around dont become one of them .

in reply to Bogo , about positive time cycles and spec stocks oil stocks etc , its not really my area of expertise , Gann mainly traded in grains and a few select stocks and also the industrial averages so i really tend to steer clear of these smaller issues as I dont think they are really conducive to this style of trading . I think it is important to be able to recognise a potentially positive time cycle and how it may affect or impact upon the price of cotton or wheat  and through this process we are looking into and trying to make a study of what causes an instrument to peak or bottom at a given point in time . I think it is important to pinpoint a time when that particular influence comes into effect and through a study of past history we can seek to establish how the price of cotton reacted or was effected under the same set of conditions . 
A positive time cycle might come into effect on the 1st january and last to the 7th january and if we have empirical evidence to indicate that this force will have a positive influence on the price of cotton we can begin to assemble the imformation and formulate a strategic trading plan but just because there exists a positive time cycle doesnt mean that every instrument in the index or the grain market is going to move in directional alignment as there are universal forces that exist within every stock and commodity and whilst the price of wheat may rise under a positive aspect the price of soybeans may fall . N.M if you are reading this please email me , I lost all my emails last year and can contact you . Regards G.A


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## Boggo (1 January 2011)

With all due respects robertgordon, I haven't read any of your post above, it looks too familiar, ie the same old cut and past format from google etc.

A couple of questions...

Do you trade ?

Do you use charts ?

If yes to the above two questions can you just post up a recent (not the usually quoted 1948 Gann Soy Beans rehash) chart or a potential upcoming trade ?

It can be a chart of any item you wish to post, the principle should be the same, well maybe the same as I cannot even establish if that is the same from the people who post cycle predictions on this site and others.
Most of the cycle predictions I refer to however seem to be advice of upcoming news or possible takeover events etc as in my previous example with TXN.

I am not having a go at Gann etc, just asking how one might put it to use in a practical sense as the sort of nonsense on this video is useless imo.
http://www.youtube.com/user/OM618#p/c/74F52B6E55AC0A1F/1/73rrV-dVK80

Poor old Gazza on this video seems to be confusing Gann with Fibonacci
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tygO5awbG88&feature=related


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## tech/a (1 January 2011)

OK
No trade on sugar and lots of typing.
Will wait patiently for something more suitable in the Softs.



> So if you enjoy your five minutes of fame on this forum taking two line potshots at some who has long past it might be advisable to study his records and forecasts in detail and then you can make a decision on his accuracy and mathematical ability . there a heaps of mushrooms around dont become one of them .




It may be a bit of a shock Robert but there are traders who do exceptionally well without the need for Gann.
I for one am amused by those who are disciples of Gann in particular those who feel the need to prove to the world (and possibly themselves) that he was RIGHT.
It is this amusement which draws me to your work here.
I will refrain from criticising and let his and your work speak for itself.

So so far we have NO TRADE/S

Do you actually trade Gann Profitably/consistently? Or is it more of an analysis interest?


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## robertgordon (1 January 2011)

Corn Tuesday 4th January 2011 Seasonal Top .  

I appreciate everyones comments and interest on Gann so tonight I did some work on the Corn Market and my research points towards a Seasonal Top on the 4th January as detailed above . Please appreciate at this point in time I cannot provide an accurate price at which I expect the peak to come in although I have prepared a list of three prices based upon angular and geometric calculations that might fit the bill but really my strategy is to wait for the day before or live on the day and see if price action conforms to these levels but the main aspect is Time and the expectation of a Top into this point . 
The Lumber trade is still fairing well and timing projections indicate that there will be further downside into Jan 10 - 11th so its probably best to just focus on these two positions .


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## Jadel (1 January 2011)

Thank you for the Turkey Coment Robert. Please read copied  article below.



Let’s examine his theories of investment in more detail and see.

Let’s look at some common myths about how great a trader Gann actually was:

Many sources quote Gann’s trading profits at $50 million dollars, however this is not true.

An interview that Alexander Elder had with his son tells the truth.

Firstly, his son confirmed that when his father died in the 1950s his estate was valued at just $100,000 - and that included his house.

Secondly, his son confirmed that Gann was unable to make enough money from trading, and therefore supplemented his income by writing and selling courses.

W.D. Gann’s Predictions

Many sources quote he had a success rate in all his trades of over 90% - again not true. We can easily deduce this from the value of his estate.

If he could make money trading and had a 90% success rate, he would have made hundreds of millions in his trading career - and he clearly did not - that’s why he had to sell books and courses.

The only evidence of a 90% success rate came from a small number of trades - and was not representative of them all.

Gann’s Methods are Predictive

Gann came to the conclusion that all natural phenomena are cyclical - including financial markets. This is true, but this is an obvious statement - we all know we’re going to die but when exactly?

A predictive theory is not a predictive theory if it can’t predict.

If Gann’s theory really is predictive, then there would be no market - as we would all know the price in advance!

Gann’s theory is subjective - and he really had no way of predicting the future with accuracy. It’s all subjective analysis and this is NOT a predictive theory.

Gann’s Logic

The basis of Gann’s theory is the principle that price and time must balance.

His methods are based on the squaring of price with time - this occurs when a unit of price equals a unit of time.

Gann for example would take a prominent high in the market, convert that dollar unit into a specified period of time and project it forward. When that time is reached, price and time are squared - and a market turn is due.

What? - How can one unit of price equal one unit of time? If you think about and answer this question for yourself, you will see how absurd the connection is.

This isn’t the only inconsistency used in his analysis - we also have the legendary Fibonacci numbers which are supposed to work with stunning accuracy - but they don’t, and neither do all sorts of astrology and geometry, that appeals to the far out investment crowd.

As we have seen, Gann was a trader who had modest success, and claimed to have discovered a predictive theory - which predicts nothing with accuracy.

Finally, we have so many subjective indicators cobbled together, that the theory can prove anything in hindsight, but if you want a tool to trade the markets look elsewhere.

For those of you still not convinced - I recently saw on the Internet, Gann’s trading methods selling for under $1,000!

Sounds like a bargain to get trades with 90% accuracy - I wonder how many serious money managers have it on their bookshelf.

Enough said.


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## IFocus (1 January 2011)

Robert you are getting a good hearing here

Seen a couple of spectacular calls over the years from Gann practitioners.

Meeting  retail traders making money is quite hard but know a few who do really well myself haven't had a down year for the last 6 to 7 years, but never met a trader using Gann making returns not saying there are not any just never met them.

I will follow this thread with interest.


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## robertgordon (1 January 2011)

Jadel there is so much imfo around on Gann and below I have posted some more for you to have a look at . He didnt trade 1K to 30K in 60 days on guesswork and chance and pattern recognition trading cotton .  a precise understanding of the connectivity between natural law and geometry and other factors were in use to achieve this , and this is not one solitary trade in islolation he had many such campaigns in one instrument or commodity where he had the ability to map out a precise timing projection where he anticipated peaks and troughs to expire . As you can appreciate there are many conflicting reports on Gann and his relationship with his son and whether the imformation and in what degree was passed on from father to son but really i dont know , I just try and study his courses and look for clues and sometimes you will learn new things and other times the material can be quite hard to grasp so I dont have a concise and comprehensive understanding of every single technique that Gann applied but after six years of extensive researching tests and applications Im pretty comfortable with my level of knowledge but i still keep pushing on and keep learning bits and pieces . So i have put up a forecast for Corn and we will see how that goes and work out some times as to how far it might run down.


 Now having a look at some of your points perhaps he didnt pass away with an expensive estate and other financial interests but I think it would be quite a naive and simplistic assertion  to conclude that his trading ability was measurable and should be judged entirely on what wealth or assets were left after his passing . I only know of his public trading records and his courses and it is not my business to speculate on his estate and other such issues . 
From what I can ascertain Gann and his son had a tenuous relationship and Gann believed that his Son had to work hard to acquire the knowledge but instead choose to make paper aeroplanes and glide them out of his office window so perhaps the relationship and imparting of knowledege was not there but thats only conjecture , no one can really confirm that which is why I try not to make a decision on second part imformation . Gann is my primary source . 

My question to you is if he had the mathematical ability to compound 1K into 30K in two months why would he be hard up for cash and solely reliant on selling precision and comprehensive courses in the instruction of forecasting and calculating grain and stock mkts . Have you possibly thought that the courses were designed and configured to assist serious students in their studies of market movements and time cycles . Do you realise how much 30K could buy back in early nineteenth century . Its a bit simplistic to think that sales were his primary income . it always make me laugh .

Many sources quote he had a success rate in all his trades of over 90% - again not true. We can easily deduce this from the value of his estate. Could we also deduce that Pavoroti was one of the worst operatic singers based upon his preference or choice of music.


The basis of Gann’s theory is the principle that price and time must balance.
You obviously havent made a patient and serious study of Gann  if you believe that this was the entire basis behind his trading methodology . Most onlookers dont see beyond the obvious elements and work towards developing a deeper understanding into Timing techniques and Geometric principles , yes Gann assigned different values or increments to Cotton and Wheat only because vertain instruments trade in 1/8 or such increments so mathematically he had to scale his time and price co ordinates in proportion with the commodity he was trading but really the balancing of time and price whilst very comprehensive and detailed outline within his course wasnt the central driving componet behind his works but proper scaling was a critical componet . 


Gann’s theory is subjective - and he really had no way of predicting the future with accuracy. It’s all subjective analysis and this is NOT a predictive theory. 
Read the proof . Did you realise that Gann publicly predicted the 3rd September 1929 Top in August 1928 well in advance of that event occuring . Perhaps it was just a stab in the dark .


----------



## tech/a (1 January 2011)

So looking to short corn 4 th or so of Jan.

By the way $100K in 1950 was a lot of $$$S a house would set you back $4-7k
I know that's what my father paid for his house in 1954.

Now the lumber trade your short?
How many contracts and what's your exit strategy?
Do you have a stop in place?
Volume is pretty terrible.
What's slippage like on this contract?
I presume your trading the CME contract.

Click to expand

*LUMBER*



*CORN*



Now we still haven't had the questions of* DO YOU ACTUALLY TRADE* answered.
Are you short Lumber and if so how are you trading it?


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## motorway (2 January 2011)

> The basis of Gann’s theory is the principle that price and time must balance.



*Why ? what is the evidence for this ?
*
I don't think the cause is to be found simply in "time"

Surely ? ==>



> While price takes time to move, time alone does not move price.




So the important factor is not "time" but the something else that time is sometimes a sort of approximate proxy for...

Look forward to the thread unfolding
Gann is a window into some interesting methods..
But imo he was sidetracked by "time"

" The Basis of My Forecasting Method " was his earliest outline of
His Geometric Angles-- where he applied them to price and *time*.. is this true Robert ?

I have not found anything earlier. But would be interested to read if there is.

Geometric Angles themselves had an earlier origin. 
But were not applied to "time"

Motorway


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## robertgordon (2 January 2011)

Hello Motorway , the previous post was in response to Jadels questions and observations 
I may go quiet for a few days as researching Corn . take care .


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## tech/a (2 January 2011)

> I may go quiet for a few days as researching Corn




A couple of days research on one trade??

Wow Dont know how you do it I go brainless after 10 mins!


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## robertgordon (3 January 2011)

Did I say I was going to spend three days researching one trade or are you re interpreting my words to suit your own purpose ?  I have provided you with a date when I expect Corn to turn down so we will see how that works out . Sometimes I study price history going back 100 years which is all part of the research , this doest necesarily mean I will spend three days looking at price data to formulate a trade on corn . I have a few additional dates on corn so will post them soon . stick to your three day break outs and 30 day moving averages .


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## tech/a (3 January 2011)

> stick to your three day break outs and 30 day moving averages .




That's a bit harsh.
I'm psychologically wounded!


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> Hello Motorway , the previous post was in response to Jadels questions and observations
> I may go quiet for a few days as researching Corn . take care .




I will be researching popcorn this afternoon. I'm off to the movies. A Horror, Thriller, Blood, Gore, Sex etc.etc.

Its called 

" Tech/a Goes to Gann"

gg


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## TulipFX (3 January 2011)

In my journey as a trader the biggest single step I made was to stop 'predicting' and start 'reacting'.

What I mean is to stop trading on what I _think _is going to happen and start trading on what I know _is _happening.

Not saying that others cannot predict, maybe they can, but I know that even with my education and theoretical economic knowledge I am not successful at it.


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## robertgordon (3 January 2011)

sorry for having a dig Tech , it probably wasnt called for and I appreciate that everyone has their own techniques and employ different methods within their trading . To me it is not really about prediction even though my objective is to forecast a forward point in Time and seek to identify or examine what forces will be in existence at that given point in Time and try and asertain whether these Principles will have a bullish or bearish inclination on price direction . When these Natural Elements of Force converge and align at a central point in most circumstances they will have a lasting directional influence on price depending on the underlying magnitude of the force and how long that level of force can be sustained or remains in existence.  Ganns mechanical approach worked towards creating an alignment between scientific mathematical and geometric elements and to try and align this with Natural Law , but in most ways its all pretty connected , the hard part is working out how it fits and how it will impact something , sure you have to react accordingly but if your trading projections are based on solid and tangible observations , if the commodity doesnt comply with your  expectations , I just get out with a small loss , and work on something else , but really I dont spend days looking at one trade , although I do spend days doing research etc like anyone else , its all learning process and seeking to  fill in the knowledge gaps etc . We are coming up to the 4th January 2011 Corn Top so bear with me and I will and zero in on a price  either one day before or on the day .


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## tech/a (3 January 2011)

> To me it is not really about prediction even though my objective is to forecast a forward point in Time and seek to identify or examine what forces will be in existence at that given point in Time and try and asertain whether these Principles will have a bullish or bearish inclination on price direction .




So for you this is not a primary trading tool.
More a guide to possible trend reversals or at least halting.
You say you take a small loss if it goes against you

So how do you determine entry (The trade trigger) and determine stop (Position size etc)?
Perhaps---Breakouts and 30 day M/A's??

You trade these set-ups? (3rd time I've asked--nicely!)


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## Ruby (3 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> sorry for having a dig Tech , it probably wasnt called for and I appreciate that everyone has their own techniques and employ different methods within their trading . To me it is not really about prediction even though my objective is to forecast a forward point in Time and seek to identify or examine what forces will be in existence at that given point in Time and try and asertain whether these Principles will have a bullish or bearish inclination on price direction . When these Natural Elements of Force converge and align at a central point in most circumstances they will have a lasting directional influence on price depending on the underlying magnitude of the force and how long that level of force can be sustained or remains in existence.  Ganns mechanical approach worked towards creating an alignment between scientific mathematical and geometric elements and to try and align this with Natural Law , but in most ways its all pretty connected , the hard part is working out how it fits and how it will impact something , sure you have to react accordingly but if your trading projections are based on solid and tangible observations , if the commodity doesnt comply with your  expectations , I just get out with a small loss , and work on something else , but really I dont spend days looking at one trade , although I do spend days doing research etc like anyone else , its all learning process and seeking to  fill in the knowledge gaps etc . We are coming up to the 4th January 2011 Corn Top so bear with me and I will and zero in on a price  either one day before or on the day .




RG, there are a few more universally accepted conventions when typing text (apart from paragraphing) which would make your 'wall of text' much easier to read, and they are:-


One space between words in the same sentence.
Two spaces after a full stop.
No spaces before a comma, full stop, colon or semi-colon.

Try it.  It would make what you write much more readable.


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## wayneL (3 January 2011)

Ruby said:


> RG, there are a few more universally accepted conventions when typing text (apart from paragraphing) which would make your 'wall of text' much easier to read, and they are:-
> 
> 
> One space between words in the same sentence.
> ...




Eh? Two spaces after a full stop is not correct AFAIK.

I find correct(ish) paragraph structure the most essential, without with results in the unreadable wall.

The other points on punctuation, though absolutely irritating, are bearable (just) if there are paragraphs.

For me, no paragraphs - no read.


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## robertgordon (3 January 2011)

Thanks Tech 

So for you this is not a primary trading tool.

I look for integration , as an example on Corn and please appreciate that this is just an explanation on how the trade might play out . a contract on corn is 5000 bushels so a 1/8c fluctuation = 12.50 on one contract so a 1c fluctuation is equivalent to 50.00 on one contract so dependent upon the amount of contracts taken and how close you can position off the top determines the overall risk on your trade . on this particular trade lets say the top comes in at 636 and we enter three contracts short at 634 we are risking 2c or 100.00 per contract ( 5000 bushel ) x 3 ( 15000 bushel ) = 300.00 total risk , its not so much about primary trade mechanism , everything has a degree of importance and purpose and I look for interconnectivity between these things , such as 90 deg from peak 180 deg from trough , sometimes these permanent cycles can provide additional trade confirmation but they are a contributing factor to the decision 
Position of price in accordance to Geometric Angles and whether the 4th January might come in on 1/2 of the square or price might be aspecting an angle on the square of nine , sometimes certain sections line up and other times there might be hidden componets that your knowledge base hasnt picked up or can recognise so I guess everything is important within the whole .

More a guide to possible trend reversals or at least halting.

yes through this process I seek to examine and try to accurately establish when certain lines of force will exert their impact upon the market .

You say you take a small loss if it goes against you

For sure , sometimes these laws and principles can be very accurate and allow you a forward projection but unlike Gann I dont have the full suite of skills to be able map out a daily or hourly projected curve ahead of time , but can attain sections of this , so yes if Corn doesnt conform to expectations we get stopped out with pre calculated loss . 

So how do you determine entry (The trade trigger) and determine stop (Position size etc)?
Perhaps---Breakouts and 30 day M/A's??

Whats that , my trading programmes and printed charts only have timing projections and 45 &  22.5 degree Angles etc , everything else is an extrapolation of price and much of a reactionary componet , Ganns Angles are forward mathematical projections based upon the symetrical relationship between time and price .



You trade these set-ups? (3rd time I've asked--nicely!)

Yes just be a little patient and see how Corn reacts on the 4th January , hopefully I will be able work out a very close price which is based upon certain factors , and as it is my intention to hold this position for a while and endeavour to try and capture a large section of the prevailing move I will zero in on a 60 minute chart to try and get close off the Top with the circle of 24 . so just sit back and see how things go , if Corn doesnt Top into the forecasted date we have other trades pre calculated ready to go .

hope thats ok for you


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## motorway (3 January 2011)

One thing I think that will cause these types of projections  problems

Is that you are not dealing with a steady state population of interest..

You well may project forward from a certain pivot..
That represented a disequilibrium at a certain time  and yes it could play out in a certain way

However as price moves higher or lower.. The entire Population of interest may change by orders of magnitudes..

Blowing away and overriding the Dynamics set up at the time of the breakout from the pivot. So a potential top is simply absorbed.

Hence along a Price Time projection while price may well  intersect at some stage
it could be anywhere along the line of "Forward Support and Resistance"



> FORWARD SUPPORT AND RESISTANCE price levels are* calculated from previous price action.* In
> the case of Gann Angles, FS/R is projected forward from a prior Pivot Point
> 
> Stocks & Commodities V. 3:5 (177-183): Gann Lines and Angles by Robert Pardo






> . Gann Angles were viewed by their author as an "unusual"
> version of moving averages. Gann also viewed them as rates of projected price change. Electing a more
> pragmatic approach, Gann Angles are descending or ascending Forward Support and Resistance levels.




Gann actually referred to them as TRUE moving averages..

Now Support and Resistance either looking back at old congestion
or projecting forward from Pivotal points..
Still has the same  inherent problem.

You still have to see what happens when you get there
and deal with that as it occurs..

In that case does having a preconceived potential TOP fixed in the mind..
cause more problems ( hence why certain Gann does not seem to work ) than just using the objective  line to gauge changes in momentum ?


Motorway


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## sails (3 January 2011)

wayneL said:


> Eh? Two spaces after a full stop is not correct AFAIK...




Wayne, my typing teacher agreed with Ruby...

But that's a long time ago so maybe it has changed.  I still put two spaces after full stops automatically but perhaps ASF software changes it.

Anyway, back to the Gann discussions...:couch..


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## tech/a (3 January 2011)

> You still have to see what happens when you get there
> and deal with that as it occurs..




Absolutely



> The entire Population of interest may change by orders of magnitudes..




Which we have all observed.
In fact we would at---- analysis points ---EXPECT.



> hope thats ok for you




Yes excellent.


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## Ruby (3 January 2011)

wayneL said:


> Eh? Two spaces after a full stop is not correct AFAIK.




Sorry - *definitely *2 spaces after a full stop.  Read any well written document.


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## wayneL (3 January 2011)

Ruby said:


> Sorry - *definitely *2 spaces after a full stop.  Read any well written document.




http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/spaces-period-end-of-sentence.aspx


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## sails (3 January 2011)

wayneL said:


> http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/spaces-period-end-of-sentence.aspx




It was a long time ago that I learned to type.

Obviously things have changed...


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## robertgordon (4 January 2011)

You well may project forward from a certain pivot..
That represented a disequilibrium at a certain time and yes it could play out in a certain way

Gann stated that in order to correctly and accurately ascertain forward movements in Commodities we must begin from the correct starting point . A new seasonal High or Low would constitute a legitimate starting point and a detailed examination of the underlying causes that determined the move to stop and reverse at that point are of primary interest to me . The Principles of Natural Law are a deterministic componet and are behind all market movements . It is the case that sometimes we dont posess the perceptual elements or have the right level of knowledge to be able to perceive or understand how these Laws operate and exert their influences upon price at a given point . Most punters are physchologically  conditioned or lack the adequate perceptual framework to  seek out the underlying causes and primary elements that are intrinsically connected to price fluctuations but then again the majority of people exhibit herd characteristics so the concept of a  set of deterministic principles controlling markets is too difficult for them to grasp and goes against conventional lines of thought . You mention the disequilibrium that is evident at low points but how can we accurately identify when a positive line of force will exert itself that is proportional to are larger in magnitude to the opposing forces that were in existence when the instrument was running down . And if we can accurately ascertain when this line of force will come into effect and examine its structural framework and seek to identify how it will govern the movement of the instrument under observation . In every Law of Nature there exists a minor and a major , a positive and a negative and a neutral . 
.





However as price moves higher or lower.. The entire Population of interest may change by orders of magnitudes.. What are the fundamental componets that cause price to swing from High to Low and how can these characteristics be measured and formulated into an accurate timing mechanism . obviously as an instrument gathers momentum on a downward slope there had to exist a harmonic balance of force or a higher magnitude  level of force to tip that instrument over and sustain its downward momentum , we can appreciate that a different set of principles will be required to move the object in an upward trajectory . 




Hence along a Price Time projection while price may well intersect at some stage
it could be anywhere along the line of "Forward Support and Resistance"

a 45 degree angle is simply a gauge . it holds no deterministic and causal qualities . it is merely a balanced forward projection of time and price co ordinates that should be observed and integrated against other factors . 


.


In that case does having a preconceived potential TOP fixed in the mind..
cause more problems ( hence why certain Gann does not seem to work ) than just using the objective line to gauge changes in momentum ?

My projections are based upon an examinination of Natural Forces that will be activated  at a certain  date and it is my objective to try and quantify how that particular line of force or in some cases multiple lines of force will impact upon an instrument and subsequently alter the position of that instrument . In order for an upwards or downwards movement to commence an equal line of force or a greater line of force needs to come into existence and impact the price of Corn on the 4th January


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## tech/a (4 January 2011)

> The Principles of Natural Law are a deterministic componet and are behind all market movements . It is the case that sometimes we dont posess the perceptual elements or have the right level of knowledge to be able to perceive or understand how these Laws operate and exert their influences upon price at a given point . Most punters are physchologically conditioned or lack the adequate perceptual framework to seek out the underlying causes and primary elements that are intrinsically connected to price fluctuations but then again the majority of people exhibit herd characteristics so the concept of a set of deterministic principles controlling markets is too difficult for them to grasp and goes against conventional lines of thought




This is the typical Gann argument directed at those who question and indeed debunk aspects of it.
I've seen similar circular argument used by religion.
Those who follow Gann are depicted as "More Intelligent" or "Gifted".
This has the paying disciples all running for their cheque books because complexity is expensive and once known IS the holy grail.

As always proof is in the application and over 17 yrs of forums I've not seen a great deal of practical application from a number of proficient exponents of Gann.



> In order for an upwards or downwards movement to commence an equal line of force or a greater line of force needs to come into existence and impact the price of Corn on the 4th January




As much as you would like to think "external" factors will govern price only one will.
Supply OR Demand.
Who cares how it is determined.
You'll see it reflected in price either over a longer time frame or the minute it happens.


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## TulipFX (4 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> . The Principles of Natural Law are a deterministic componet and are behind all market movements . It is the case that sometimes we dont posess the perceptual elements or have the right level of knowledge to be able to perceive or understand how these Laws operate and exert their influences upon price at a given point . Most punters are physchologically  conditioned or lack the adequate perceptual framework to  seek out the underlying causes and primary elements that are intrinsically connected to price fluctuations but then again the majority of people exhibit herd characteristics so the concept of a  set of deterministic principles controlling markets is too difficult for them to grasp and goes against conventional lines of thought . You mention the disequilibrium that is evident at low points but how can we accurately identify when a positive line of force will exert itself that is proportional to are larger in magnitude to the opposing forces that were in existence when the instrument was running down . And if we can accurately ascertain when this line of force will come into effect and examine its structural framework and seek to identify how it will govern the movement of the instrument under observation . In every Law of Nature there exists a minor and a major , a positive and a negative and a neutral .




Are you talking about Hobbes' 19 Laws of of Nature? I see no relevance here. Aristotle said nothing much which would apply to markets.

To me markets, be they on ebay, garage sales, Toyko fish markets and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange all operate using 3 simple parts.


Demand
Supply
Price

There is nothing positive or negative in price. It just is. I started trading looking to use fundamentals and predictions to take positions. Very quickly I learnt to disregard what I thought. The only thing that matters is the price. The price (historical and current) contains all the information within its simple 5 digits.

Once I moved from general theories which muddied my trading and concentrated purely on price and price movements, statistics and testing of price action I became profitable.

No matter which trade I take now, it is not a prediction, it is a statistical guess. People ask me for my opinion/prediction on matters - first thing I tell them is I _never _trade my opinions or predictions. This could be a weakness in my ability to predict the markets, others might be able to predict profitably.


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## tech/a (7 January 2011)

Any more on Corn?
Would a trade be instigated yet?
Any further "dates"?


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## robertgordon (9 January 2011)

Corn January 10th should turn out to be counter trend low before resumption of uptrend.


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## tech/a (9 January 2011)

So the 4th was not a trade.

So again looking at practical application the 10Th low 
When should we place a trade (Hypothetically)
How would you position size (Number of contracts) 
Where is our stop (Would you use one) 
Where is it going (I presume Gann gives points of exit).
What is the exit strategy.


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## ginar (9 January 2011)

well 4th pretty close to top , 10th swing low for resumption of uptrend . i'll keep an eye on it  .


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## ginar (14 January 2011)

ginar said:


> well 4th pretty close to top , 10th swing low for resumption of uptrend . i'll keep an eye on it  .




Tell you what im pretty impressed with the calls on corn so far , havent looked at any of the other calls . keep em coming


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## tech/a (14 January 2011)

Wow very impressive.
What would be more impressive is actually having the conviction to show a trading application.

Whats the point in marking up your chart and just watching it all un fold in front of you.

My theory is that most Gann analysts actually Dont trade.

The have Traded/seen enough of their analysis fail and as such are not confident in any application of the analysis using cold hard cash.

It all looks really clever when it works and it will from time to time.
But really ugly when it doesn't and it doesn't more often than not.
From the analysis I've seen from other exponents Yogi being one

Keep it coming BUT how about some real life application.

Place trade here
Stop here
Exit here.

THEN we can see over time how impressive it really is.


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## luke256 (14 January 2011)

tech/a said:


> Wow very impressive.
> What would be more impressive is actually having the conviction to show a trading application.
> 
> Whats the point in marking up your chart and just watching it all un fold in front of you.
> ...




Why is it necessary for him to post his trading system (entry, exit and stop management) on a public forum. If he can continue calling tops and bottoms in advance isn't that enough to show Gann forecasting can work.


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## Ruby (14 January 2011)

tech/a said:


> Wow very impressive.
> What would be more impressive is actually having the conviction to show a trading application.
> 
> Whats the point in marking up your chart and just watching it all un fold in front of you.
> ...




Tech, I think you are being a bit hard.   They were two good calls, made in advance.  How about giving some credit?  Your  theory that Gann analysts don't trade is only that - a theory.  I know of two who do, and who make a good living from it.


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## tech/a (14 January 2011)

luke256 said:


> Why is it necessary for him to post his trading system (entry, exit and stop management) on a public forum. If he can continue calling tops and bottoms in advance isn't that enough to show Gann forecasting can work.




Give me a break he is giving his "Predictions" and he's got one on the money.
That doesnt constitute profitable trading over the long term.
Thats the problem with most of the Noobs they get all wet and gooey when they see a correct call and think EVERY call is a winner.
I traded a method live on "The other " Forum for 5 yrs many learnt from that that its not about a correct call or infact a group of correct calls.
Trading is about TRADING----consistently and profitably---I'm asking ---and not unfairly in my opinion to demonstrate that. Gann education has a lot to answer for.
people spend 1000s and have NO IDEA how to TRADE.

Its not hard Entry/Stop/Exit and lets see how it pans out over 6-12 mths.



Ruby said:


> Tech, I think you are being a bit hard.   They were two good calls, made in advance.  How about giving some credit?  Your  theory that Gann analysts don't trade is only that - a theory.  I know of two who do, and who make a good living from it.




Im not seeing anything which contradicts my "theory"


They are *GREAT CALLS*
Now see above and I look forward to further analysis.
Ive made 5 more calls as great on the Breakout thread.
It aint that hard.

I watched a guy who lectured Gann trade.
Mate he had NO IDEA!
Was an expert in showing me where it worked but had no idea how to apply it as in a trading method.


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## luke256 (14 January 2011)

Its funny how everytime someone mentions Gann everyone expects a forecast, but if you read Gann's books most of it is about buy & sell points and trade management so you can trade *CONSISTENTLY *and *PROFITABLY*. Most people i have talked to who are using gann think they need to be having visions while foaming at the mouth or have the moon line up with uranus to take a trade. That is BS and why i think Gann gets a bad reputation.

Tech/A a lot of your volume analysis and chart patterns shown in the breakout thread can be found in Gann's How to Make Profits in Commodities written over 50 years ago (Form reading and signal days / gap sections). So it seems to me you are using gann analysis to some extent but are in denial about it lol.


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## ginar (14 January 2011)

tech/a said:


> Give me a break he is giving his "Predictions" and he's got one on the money.
> That doesnt constitute profitable trading over the long term.
> Thats the problem with most of the Noobs they get all wet and gooey when they see a correct call and think EVERY call is a winner.
> I traded a method live on "The other " Forum for 5 yrs many learnt from that that its not about a correct call or infact a group of correct calls.
> ...




Sorry this wet and gooey newbie got on a thread and got excited ... NOT  . youve taken it over and its all yours ... its all about you  ... how good you are and how terrrible everyone else seems to be  ...FIGJAM  comes to mind . sometimes i wonder why i bother .... and im sure robertgorden feels the same , the fact that RG has called two swing pivots in ADVANCE gives him a right to have his say without being attacked  but i will let him say that . if by the smallest chance he continues to post i will read and keep any thoughts i have to myself , and please dont catergorize me , you dont have enough data to back test that ;-)   .


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## Ruby (14 January 2011)

ginar said:


> Sorry this wet and gooey newbie got on a thread and got excited ... NOT  . youve taken it over and its all yours ... its all about you  ... how good you are and how terrrible everyone else seems to be  ...FIGJAM  comes to mind . sometimes i wonder why i bother .... and im sure robertgorden feels the same , the fact that RG has called two swing pivots in ADVANCE gives him a right to have his say without being attacked  but i will let him say that . if by the smallest chance he continues to post i will read and keep any thoughts i have to myself , and please dont catergorize me , you dont have enough data to back test that ;-)   .




Well spoken!


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## Boggo (14 January 2011)

luke256 said:


> Tech/A a lot of your volume analysis and chart patterns shown in the breakout thread can be found in Gann's How to Make Profits in Commodities written over 50 years ago (Form reading and signal days / gap sections). So it seems to me you are using gann analysis to some extent but are in denial about it lol.




From what I have read of Gann, Elliott and Fibonacci, they all seem to interact or have similarities.
Gann stated that "Most highs and lows are made in proportion to one or more previous sections of the trend or counter trend"
This is a combination of basic Elliott Wave and Fibonacci retracements, the only standout difference with Gann was that he placed more emphasis on time that either of the other methods.

Gann called a correction "an overbalance in time and price" and in EW lingo this is a correction in time and price but in both cases Fibinacci ratios play a significant role.

A lot of this star gazing stuff seems to be the course selling mystical theory but most of the practical application seems to be the basics as above.


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## tech/a (14 January 2011)

All I've asked is to show application of the analysis so people can see how its applied.

Thats what you do when you trade,apply the analysis.



> Sorry this wet and gooey newbie got on a thread and got excited ... NOT . youve taken it over and its all yours ... its all about you ... how good you are and how terrrible everyone else seems to be ...FIGJAM comes to mind . sometimes i wonder why i bother




Whats this cr@p.



> but if you read Gann's books most of it is about buy & sell points and trade management so you can trade CONSISTENTLY and PROFITABLY




I have (albeit a while ago) and cant say Ive seen anything of note.
Infact those who post Gann *NEVER* mention anything about it so it seems pretty obvious they Dont practice/follow Gann for the Trade management.



> a lot of your volume analysis and chart patterns shown in the breakout thread can be found in Gann's How to Make Profits in Commodities written over 50 years ago




Its certainly not new Wyckoff,Williams,Krueger to name a few.
When I post *I do include application*,I show complete transparency win and lose.
Many still have trouble grasping the application of trading Breakouts (The way I do).
Its not hard.


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## TulipFX (14 January 2011)

The predictions are very Gann. Reminds me of Keynes' saying about being vaguely right and precisely wrong.


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## motorway (14 January 2011)

Most of what is good in GANN is generic imo ..

As you go from the earliest to the later material
it becomes more fantastic and original ( or seems to . He took a lot of stuff from astrology ,One guy who wrote a book on winning at the horses )

His volume analysis is no where near the sophistication of Wyckoff

imo




> Synopsis
> 
> Sepharial (1864-1929) had a life-long dislike of luck. He challenged himself to find what he called "scientific rules" that would eliminate chance. And, according to his own accounts, he succeed.
> 
> ...







Motorway


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## luke256 (14 January 2011)

Tech/a you said:
"Infact those who post Gann NEVER mention anything about it so it seems pretty obvious they Dont practice/follow Gann for the Trade management."

- Just because people don't discuss Gann and his trade management on a forum doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He manages trades in New Stock Trend Dectector for Chrysler stock and numerous trading plans to suit various commodities in his course. If you had read the books thoroughly you would have seen the trade management (intitial stops and progressive stop movement). Is it Gann's fault that many people dont follow his methods as he instructed...i dont think so.

Just because you can't use Gann rules to trade doesn't mean someone else can't. 

Its great when you post that you give a detailed example but others may be more interested in some basic chat and see where it goes. *If RobertGorden can post more successful turning points wouldn't you be more interested in how he calculates the dates??? *

"Many still have trouble grasping the application of trading Breakouts (The way I do).
Its not hard." toot toot.....toot toot


----------



## Boggo (14 January 2011)

tech/a said:


> All I've asked is to show application of the analysis so people can see how its applied.
> 
> Thats what you do when you trade,apply the analysis.
> 
> ...






luke256 said:


> Tech/a you said:
> "Infact those who post Gann NEVER mention anything about it so it seems pretty obvious they Dont practice/follow Gann for the Trade management."
> 
> - Just because people don't discuss Gann and his trade management on a forum doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> ...




I am tending to agree with tech/a on this.

If someone pops up on here and starts a thread with the title "Gann forecasts/real time trades" surely they must expect to get asked a few questions and be asked to display the concept as Frank D did here
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21362&p=600714&viewfull=1#post600714

If there are no charts forthcoming, no real time trades and a reluctance to answer any questions with anything but the standard cut and paste in as displayed in posts 5, 7 and 10 then don't go off on a tangent when the questions get more to the point and the responses confirm the original beliefs of those who were willing to have an open mind towards the concept.

Those are suited to this theory tend to remind me of days spent in classrooms with the Christian Brothers, ie, don't question what we say, just believe what we tell you and you won't have any problems in your time here.


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## tech/a (14 January 2011)

> Just because you can't use Gann rules to trade doesn't mean someone else can't.




What on earth has this got to do with the discussion? 
this is about application of Gann not whether I can use it or want to use it?
Why the hell would I?



> Its great when you post that you give a detailed example but others may be more interested in some basic chat and see where it goes. If RobertGorden can post more successful turning points wouldn't you be more interested in how he calculates the dates???




Personally no.
As there are many turning points he can calculate and you as a follower of Gann would know that. Its pretty clear I'm interested in seeing how a practitioner of Gann can consistently apply the method to trade profitably. From the many possibilities a trader would have to at some point take a trade and manage it. If you've ever traded you'll know EXACTLY where I'm coming from.
If your just a theorist then you have no idea and think I'm P$sing in the wind.



> "Many still have trouble grasping the application of trading Breakouts (The way I do).
> Its not hard." toot toot.....toot toot




What is this Romper room---Are some of you people under 25?
If so I understand.


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## FxTrader (15 January 2011)

TulipFX said:


> Once I moved from general theories which muddied my trading and concentrated purely on price and price movements, statistics and testing of price action I became profitable.




How true, a mirror of my own experience.  The litmus test of any trading strategy for me is, does it suit my trading style and the markets I trade, are the rules easy to follow and is it profitable.  Discussion of market theory, Gann, Elliott Wave etcetera is an interesting intellectual exercise but amounts to nothing without a trading plan and strategy that is profitable.  Show me examples of the money making strategy in action or stop wasting my time, tech/a is spot on here.

Predicting tops and bottoms is a mug punters game IMO and I have yet to meet anyone who is a consistently profitible trader trying to do this.  I go after the middle third of price movements.  All that matters to me is trend, pivots and divergence and the profits that flow from this.



> No matter which trade I take now, it is not a prediction, it is a statistical guess.




I prefer calculated risk or smart risk in reference to trading. Some of my friends equate trading with gambling out of ignorace but that's understandable since they are generally not risk takers anyway (at least they don't think they are.)


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## robertgordon (16 January 2011)

Thankyou for the input and I will endeavour to adress the questions put forward. My original Title for this thread was Gann . I did not Title the thread "Gann forecasts/real time trades" . My original Title has been adjusted and extended courtesy of the moderators. First Point .

Second Point : I have previously indicated that it is not within my interest or desire to post charts or diagrams associated with my research but I will endeavour to provide a reasonably detailed explanation on trade mechanics and the underlying reasoning behind each trade . The recent calls on Corn were out by one day which can and do occur from time to time but not everyones trading methodology  can be consistently accurate over a large sample size of trades  and please appreciate it is only early days and over the next few weeks or months I will be continuing on with my work and forecasting and endeavouring to trade live turning points within the commodity market as they prevail . I appreciate your request for charts and calculations but I am not here to provide a wholesale  dissemination on the works and techniques  of WD Gann . 




In response to some queries 

How true, a mirror of my own experience. The litmus test of any trading strategy for me is, does it suit my trading style.

This is quite a general observation as people will naturally construct or tailor their trading plans based upon a range of personalised factors much like when you sign up to Fernwood and fill out the questionare . Some people will only have limited time to monitor and conduct their trades as they are time poor and have external commitments therfore they can only allocate a small portion of their time to trading and system development . On the other hand the fulltime trader has the ability to monitor his positions and watch the fluctuations within the market on a realtime level . During times of quiet activity he can spend time researching ideas and streamlining his trading plan and evaluating his risk settings and parameters . 


         Predicting tops and bottoms is a mug punters game IMO and I have yet to meet anyone who is a consistently profitible trader trying to do this. I go after the middle third of price movements. All that matters to me is trend, pivots and divergence and the profits that flow from this.

My predictions are not based upon a set of arbitrary observations . My calculations are based upon certain scientific principles and geometric values and when these factors move into  alignment they usually co incide with a top or bottom .
These Timing Principles endeavour to measure the evolving peaks and troughs within the market as that is their primary function . These Techniques and methods are not orientated or designed  to  identifying breakout points or 180ema crossovers . Momentum based oscilators are an artificial intrepretation of price action and are effectively lagging indicators . Every movement within the market is a result of Natural Law and the cause exists long before the effect takes place so from my perspective it would be prudent to employ the techniques and methods that I have learnt over several years as a tool to identify and calculate possible high probability turning points.

Not everyone one of these turning points is going to be a high magnitude turning point .They might constitute a week long selloff point or a multi week selloff point but as I expained the intrinsic nature of my system is oriented towards locating turning points and entering into a position with a calculated level of risk and a forward based trading plan that will outline important time points in the future where my position may be at risk and other spiral price prokections based on the Square of Nine . A detailed risk analysis is a central componet of my trading system and dependent upon how many bushells are traded and how far my entry point off the top determines the overall risk on any given trade . So all of these componets are integrated and play an equally important role in my decision making and trade execution . 

As Tech has outlined two forecasts arent much to go on and it is important to see how one fares over a range of market conditions and periods of volatility so bear with me and I will place a few more trades up in advance and outline the risk parameters on each trade and what contigency plan I have just in case the position moves against me . My style is geared towards waiting for a projected date to come in and then once all of the co ordinates and Timing lines up I will seek to use my squares and calculators to zero in on price . I think whilst one may have the ability to forward project high probability turning points one must also be able to accurately qualify a price level that can be proven geometrically and mathematically because its no good saying you expect a low on 18th March but the average range in corn might be 10c so depending upon your entry level you could be risking 500.00 on one contract so you can appreciate the importance of price alignment and time alignment


----------



## tech/a (16 January 2011)

> How true, a mirror of my own experience. The litmus test of any trading strategy for me is, does it suit my trading style.




Keep seeing this and I find it just doesn't cut it. I've also seen it used at seminars when someone comes up with a fantastic question which absolutely nails the presenter.
Next you hear---"seriously this method wont suit every traders personality---if it doesn't suit you then find something that does"---- awkward moment avoided.

*The litmus test for me is 
DOES IT MAKE CONSISTENT PROFITS*



> This is quite a general observation as people will naturally construct or tailor their trading plans based upon a range of personalised factors much like when you sign up to Fernwood and fill out the questionare . Some people will only have limited time to monitor and conduct their trades as they are time poor and have external commitments therfore they can only allocate a small portion of their time to trading and system development . On the other hand the fulltime trader has the ability to monitor his positions and watch the fluctuations within the market on a realtime level . During times of quiet activity he can spend time researching ideas and streamlining his trading plan and evaluating his risk settings and parameters .




Good profitable trading ---contrary to opinion---(Generally those not profitable) is as boring as hell and takes around 1 hr a day--tops




> My predictions are not based upon a set of arbitrary observations . My calculations are based upon certain scientific principles and geometric values and when these factors move into alignment they usually co incide with a top or bottom .
> These Timing Principles endeavour to measure the evolving peaks and troughs within the market as that is their primary function . These Techniques and methods are not orientated or designed to identifying breakout points or 180ema crossovers . Momentum based oscilators are an artificial intrepretation of price action and are effectively lagging indicators . Every movement within the market is a result of Natural Law and the cause exists long before the effect takes place so from my perspective it would be prudent to employ the techniques and methods that I have learnt over several years as a tool to identify and calculate possible high probability turning points.
> 
> Not everyone one of these turning points is going to be a high magnitude turning point .They might constitute a week long selloff point or a multi week selloff point but as I expained the intrinsic nature of my system is oriented towards locating turning points and entering into a position with a calculated level of risk and a forward based trading plan that will outline important time points in the future where my position may be at risk and other spiral price prokections based on the Square of Nine . A detailed risk analysis is a central componet of my trading system and dependent upon how many bushells are traded and how far my entry point off the top determines the overall risk on any given trade . So all of these componets are integrated and play an equally important role in my decision making and trade execution .




There are dozens of ways to find a "possible pressure point" on a chart.
Plotting them all takes a great deal of time and their importance will be greatly enhanced by their confluence around each other. Some but not limited to are.

Geometric charts
Angles: 1*1, 2*1, 1*2 etc.
Price Squares: The Square of 144; The Square of the Range
The Square of Nine
Time cycles
The Planets and Geometric Vibration

Where there is limited or no confluence there is less "significance"

The issue in *APPLICATION* is
Which ones do you take? and where do you exit?---going forward toward other pressure points. 



> As Tech has outlined two forecasts arent much to go on and it is important to see how one fares over a range of market conditions and periods of volatility so bear with me and I will place a few more trades up in advance and outline the risk parameters on each trade and what contigency plan I have just in case the position moves against me . My style is geared towards waiting for a projected date to come in and then once all of the co ordinates and Timing lines up I will seek to use my squares and calculators to zero in on price . I think whilst one may have the ability to forward project high probability turning points one must also be able to accurately qualify a price level that can be proven geometrically and mathematically because its no good saying you expect a low on 18th March but the average range in corn might be 10c so depending upon your entry level you could be risking 500.00 on one contract so you can appreciate the importance of price alignment and time alignment




This would be good.




> I have previously indicated that it is not within my interest or desire to post charts or diagrams associated with my research but I will endeavour to provide a reasonably detailed explanation on trade mechanics and the underlying reasoning behind each trade . The recent calls on Corn were out by one day which can and do occur from time to time but not everyones trading methodology can be consistently accurate over a large sample size of trades and please appreciate it is only early days and over the next few weeks or months I will be continuing on with my work and forecasting and endeavouring to trade live turning points within the commodity market as they prevail . I appreciate your request for charts and calculations but I am not here to provide a wholesale dissemination on the works and techniques of WD Gann .




Not asking for a guided seminar in the use of Gann.

To mark "pressure points" on a chart particularly if you use Gann software (http://www.gannalyst.com/Gannalyst_Professional/Gannalyst_PriceTools_PriceRange1.shtml) or similar is a no brainer and not that hard.
99.9% of people wouldn't understand how you derived that point and if they care to find out they do the course and buy the software. 
But 99.9% of people would be able to see your analysis clearer in a visual sense particularly if you labelled your charts.


The chart mystery rivals the "This isn't for everybody" group.

The sceptic in me says--*there is no chart*---or there is someone else's chart and *these people are great cut and pasters*.

Here are a couple of marked up Gann Charts (Not mine) but you can see the Myriad of Intersections and these are mainly with fans and squares!!!!

Can you see my point on applying this into a meaningful trading method!!

People pay 10000'S $ to learn to place these lines on a chart. Great looks fantastic to LOOK BACK ON---but forward.







I agree it would be good to see the analysis applied and easy to follow.
Over to you Robert.


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## sails (16 January 2011)

Tech, I think you have shown clearly where many Gann style educators use hindsight to advantage.  There is little consistency in which particular lines are hit.

I started trading with Gann style "education" but then didn't continue due to the excessive price of subsequent courses.  Instead, I set up all important dates - both major and minor - and then projected the relevant fractions of all known major squares in both time and price.  I included all the usual 1x1 1x2, etc lines as well.  Also the first range out from any major turn was also used as a square and projected out in time and price.

I didn't do this on a chart.  Way too messy.  I was using an older software program that produced excellent reports.  This way I was able to print out the days that had something significant from the Gann style of analysis.  And there were usually several "significant" things coming together on almost any given day meaning a potential change of trend...

As a result, I was always too scared to get on a trend because it was likely to change trend.

From a marketing viewpont, it would be so easy to point out that a change of trend was because so many squares of x or a 1x? line or whatever. It was exactly how I got conned (IMO) into purchasing the course in the first place as it looked as if the markets could be worked out mathematically and I was too new to know better at the time.

The only time I saw anything potentially work (other than the simple calendar day counts that I posted some time ago and that was in conjunction with other T/A) was when there was a major clustering of the square of 256 from several major highs and lows.  Extreme volatility errupted at that time with the SPI moving many times more than it's normal daily ranges.  Now, that would be a spectacular marketing thing for an educator.  I don't remember seeing that sort of volatility repeat again at 256 days later so I suspect it was just a co-incidence.

The above said, I'm not saying that Gann style T/A doesn't work.  Robert Gordon may be one of those who has found a way to make it consistently useful although I think the majority will struggle with it.  So far his calls seem to be quite accurate, so I will continue to watch this thread with much interest...


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## robertgordon (16 January 2011)

If you have read TTTA you will know who Robert Gordon is . Sails ? .. Or wasnt it on the reading list through SITM ?  

My analysis indicates that The SP500 has topped and look for 1290 to hold . If we trade lower than this level on Monday opening we may see some good downside .


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## sails (16 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> If you have read TTTA you will know who Robert Gordon is . Sails ? .. Or wasnt it on the reading list through SITM ?
> 
> My analysis indicates that The SP500 has topped and look for 1290 to hold . If we trade lower than this level on Monday opening we may see some good downside .




Yes, I have Tunnel Thru The Air (purchased through SITM..) but it's been a long time since trying to make some sense of it.  Just had a look at the book and found Robert Gordon...

I started with SITM about 13-14 years ago and then struggled with trying to make a go of it for a few years after that-with very little luck.  When I get time to trade, I use a little bit of time analysis in conjunction with other TA - and some of that is options related. 

Anyway, keep up the good work with some forecasts as, in my experience, most Gann educators seem to use the easy hindsight stunts that I outlined in my last post on this thread and it is good to see your calls in real time...


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## TulipFX (16 January 2011)

Can you please announce trades rather then vague market movements?


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## tech/a (16 January 2011)

> Can you please announce trades rather then vague market movements?






> My analysis indicates that The SP500 has topped and look for 1290 to hold . If we trade lower than this level on Monday opening we may see some good downside




So being a trader of Gann you would take a short trade *IF* trading was lower than 1290 on Monday with a stop at the high of the S&P or no stop?

Or would you just watch it?


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## robertgordon (17 January 2011)

Can you please announce trades rather then vague market movements?

How much more clearer would you like me to make it for you ? 
Would you like me to type it out in brail so you can comprehend it ?

Just in case you missed the point I am looking for a Top in the SP500 at approximately 1290 which happened on Friday close so if the price trades below that figure I will be sitting back in my armchair with a glass of Cognac watching the market and procastinating upon what I will do next .


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## Wysiwyg (17 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> Sugar 29.50  30th December should turn out to be Low .




After the event so consolation 1/1 



robertgordon said:


> Corn Tuesday 4th January 2011 Seasonal Top.




Forecast and wrong.  1/2



robertgordon said:


> belit
> Tonight we should see Lumber trade lower than than the 27th December Top 316 .
> We can see that Time has moved beyond 180 degrees  from the 23rd June 2010 Low and  the current price of 316 is trading below the 45 degree angle . Time has also balanced from the Nov 4th Top to Nov 30th Low which equals 26 degrees , if we project 26 degrees out from Nov 30th we come close to balancing time into the 27th December Top 316.




Wrong. So one right out of three.


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## FxTrader (17 January 2011)

tech/a said:


> Keep seeing this and I find it just doesn't cut it. I've also seen it used at seminars when someone comes up with a fantastic question which absolutely nails the presenter.
> Next you hear---"seriously this method wont suit every traders personality---if it doesn't suit you then find something that does"---- awkward moment avoided.
> 
> *The litmus test for me is
> DOES IT MAKE CONSISTENT PROFITS*



Well tech, thanks for your partial misquote and misinterpretation of what I said.  Selectively quoting someone out of context "doesn't cut it". What I actually said in full was...

*The litmus test of any trading strategy for me is, does it suit my trading style and the markets I trade, are the rules easy to follow and is it profitable.*

What I mean by "trading style" is that I'm a short term trader using highly leveraged instruments, not a buy and hold equities investor.  Sadly, you only saw my statements as an opportunity for a beat up and to make a useless point.  Well done.


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## sails (17 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> After the event so consolation 1/1
> 
> Forecast and wrong.  1/2
> 
> Wrong. So one right out of three.




Didn't corn turn out OK, Wysiwyg?  According to Ginar's posts and charts it looks like it might be two right out of three.

robertgordon's post:


robertgordon said:


> Corn January 10th should turn out to be counter trend low before resumption of uptrend.




Two reply posts from ginar with charts:
(click on the green arrow afer ginar's name to find the charts)



ginar said:


> well 4th pretty close to top , 10th swing low for resumption of uptrend . i'll keep an eye on it  .






ginar said:


> Tell you what im pretty impressed with the calls on corn so far , havent looked at any of the other calls . keep em coming





A bit off topic but it is somewhat curious that ginar and robertgordon both often put a space before a full stop or comma.  It is quite an unusual habit (IMO) and wonder why they would both do this...


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## robertgordon (17 January 2011)

With the SP500 analysis some cycles indicate that either Friday 14th January was Top at 1290 or Monday 17th January tonight will be Top so I am working with both possibilities . 

My revised price targets are 1290 as stated . 1296 . 1300 or 1311 . which is ok as we have four price levels to work with . there is a good probability that 17th January will be Top for the SP500 so my trading strategy would be to wait and see how price opens and if it trades up to around any of these levels and then sells off . So will have to watch the intraday price tonight to gauge which one of these levels is going to serve as resist which can be a little tricky but if for example 1300 gets hit three times in 60 minutes thhat might be a pretty good indication that level will hold , apply same strategy for all price target but the main aspect is looking to Top into 17th January .


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## captain black (17 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> Monday 17th January tonight will be Top




US markets are closed tonight.


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## motorway (17 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> If you have read TTTA you will know who Robert Gordon is . Sails ? .. Or wasnt it on the reading list through SITM ?
> 
> My analysis indicates that The SP500 has topped and look for 1290 to hold . If we trade lower than this level on Monday opening we may see some good downside .




Is this a Forecast ?

These Gann Forecasts seem to be more observations of what is happening and what to look out for ?



> With the SP500 analysis some cycles indicate that either Friday 14th January was Top at 1290 or Monday 17th January tonight will be Top so I am working with both possibilities .




Motorway


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## TulipFX (17 January 2011)

robertgordon said:


> > Can you please announce trades rather then vague market movements?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is all very Gann. 

Something like this:

I Think SP500 will find a top, so will enter at 1285 upon confirmation 1290-1300 offers resistance.

My stop will be at about 1310, above this resistance point.

My first profit target will be 1215 where a previous high was made.

_* This is not my opinion, just a quick look at the charts to see if I could find some general numbers which seem to make sense. I do not trade this market. This is not advice._


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## Wysiwyg (17 January 2011)

> Corn Tuesday 4th January 2011 Seasonal Top.







sails said:


> Didn't corn turn out OK, Wysiwyg?  According to Ginar's posts and charts it looks like it might be two right out of three.



Sails, I interpreted "seasonal" as the top for the corn season but after some research I realise the American corn season begins around June. Maybe "seasonal" is the climate seasons with it being winter now in America.  

Regardless, corn has made a new high over 650 c/bushel.


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## sails (17 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Sails, I interpreted "seasonal" as the top for the corn season but after some research I realise the American corn season begins around June. Maybe "seasonal" is the climate seasons with it being winter now in America.
> 
> Regardless, corn has made a new high over 650 c/bushel.




Wysiwyg, I think "seasonal" is Gann speak in this context and not necessarily anything to do with physical corn seasons.  If I remember correctly, the Gann emblem is based on it's own seasons.  Perhaps RobertGordon can clarify as it's been a long time now since studying Gann...

On that basis a Gann seasonal high doesn't necessarily mean the trend is over.  I found Gann very subjective and so will be interested to see how RobertGordon explains what he meant by "seasonal".


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## luke256 (17 January 2011)

My understanding of seasonal dates in regards to Gann is the date for change of seasons based on the position of the earth as it rotates around the sun. See image below:




Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season

As for the Gann emblem it is commonly placed on a major high or low. Then dates are calculated forward based on the degrees 90 degrees, 120 degress etc of the emblem. At these dates you would look for a signal for a change in trend.


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## Wysiwyg (17 January 2011)

sails said:


> Wysiwyg, I think "seasonal" is Gann speak in this context and not necessarily anything to do with physical corn seasons.  If I remember correctly, the Gann emblem is based on it's own seasons.  Perhaps RobertGordon can clarify as it's been a long time now since studying Gann...
> 
> On that basis a Gann seasonal high doesn't necessarily mean the trend is over.  I found Gann very subjective and so will be interested to see how RobertGordon explains what he meant by "seasonal".




Sails, I found a quote from Gann which states the winter quarter starts on 22 Dec. So it is indeed climate related in which an "extreme high or extreme low" occurs. The "seasonal" top for corn did not occur as original poster stated.  




> SEASONAL CHANGES IN STOCKS
> 
> The average of stocks and many of the individual stocks make important bottoms and tops according to the Seasonal Changes, which are as follows:
> 
> ...




Individuals comment ...


> *What Gann was doing was relating the natural cycle of the seasons to market tops and bottoms (or turning* *points)*. *The cycle of the seasons each year has an **impact on not only agricultural markets (crops are harvested after the growing* *season, which creates an over supply and thus lower prices)*, but also in other markets (for example, heating oil prices rise in winter when heating oil is in great demand).


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## luke256 (17 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> The "seasonal" top for corn did not occur as original poster stated.




Technically it is a seasonal top 4th January, see my previous post above for diagram of seasonal dates. Its probably better not to cut and paste random text if you dont understand what it is about.


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## Wysiwyg (17 January 2011)

luke256 said:


> Technically it is a seasonal top 4th January, see my previous post above for diagram of seasonal dates. Its probably better not to cut and paste random text if you dont understand what it is about.



It is probably better if you butt out with your pretty astrological copy and attach. 

The seasonal top was not the 4 January as the poster stated. Comprehende?


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## luke256 (17 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> The seasonal top was not the 4 January as the poster stated. Comprehende?




Robertgordens forcast was one day out. Isn't is reasonable to allow a day either side of the forecast date to look for a signal to trade the top/bottom......confirm the turn on a swing chart????

The actual seasonal date is 3rd of January 2011 (please see my pretty astrogical copy and attach above) the Corn top came in on 3rd of January. BINGO.

There was a top on the 3rd of January + on a seasonal date = *seasonal top*. Don't see what all the stress is about.


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## Wysiwyg (17 January 2011)

luke256 said:


> Robertgordens forcast was one day out. Isn't is reasonable to allow a day either side of the forecast date to look for a signal to trade the top/bottom......confirm the turn on a swing chart????
> 
> The actual seasonal date is 3rd of January 2011 (please see my pretty astrogical copy and attach above) the Corn top came in on 3rd of January. BINGO.
> 
> There was a top on the 3rd of January + on a seasonal date = *seasonal top*. Don't see what all the stress is about.




Nice twist.


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## robertgordon (17 January 2011)

Over the last few weeks I have been trying to work out how Gann forecast price levels in advance and today I discovered and learnt a few important things which should assist  enable me in some cases to make more accurate pricing calls . The example with the SP500 Top is a good case in point as my Timing co ordinates indicate a Top at a detain date , but the pricing levels based upon Plannetary Longitude were a bit too far and scattered between so hopefully this new method that I discovered will serve a little way towards forward projecting Time and also provide a more precise price point , so it will take a little more time time to aquaint myself with this as it has a few scaling calculations etc but hopefully soon I will be able to project both a Time and maybe narrow it down to two solid price levels before the event takes place , please appreciate that the Time call might be a week or so in advance but the price projections might be one to two days in advance so its a work in progress.


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## tech/a (17 January 2011)

In advance is good


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## TulipFX (18 January 2011)

luke256 said:


> Robertgordens forcast was one day out. Isn't is reasonable to allow a day either side of the forecast date to look for a signal to trade the top/bottom......confirm the turn on a swing chart????
> 
> The actual seasonal date is 3rd of January 2011 (please see my pretty astrogical copy and attach above) the Corn top came in on 3rd of January. BINGO.
> 
> There was a top on the 3rd of January + on a seasonal date = *seasonal top*. Don't see what all the stress is about.




So you are short on this trade? Where did you place your stop? Did it get hit? The price of corn is far higher then 3rd of January.

I do not understand the playing of words to fool yourself into thinking you are right. The position is hundreds of points the wrong site. So whatever tricks you want to play with the definition of seasonal, the fact is the price of corn is significantly higher now.

I want trades to prove a system. Noone can argue with solid, well announced trades. On either side of the discussion.


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## Ruby (18 January 2011)

sails said:


> A bit off topic but it is somewhat curious that ginar and robertgordon both often put a space before a full stop or comma.  It is quite an unusual habit (IMO) and wonder why they would both do this...




So does Motorway.  I don't think anything should be read into it.


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## sails (18 January 2011)

TulipFX, I understood there was a high called for the 4th and then a low on the 10th with resumption of the trend.  So, if it were traded, there would have been a short from the 4th to the 10th and then long again.  How that is actually traded with entry, exit, stop and money management specifics would be a story in itself and it is what many would like to know how these calls are translated into a practical trading system.

For more info on both calls go to my post (#79) and then click on the green arrows to find the relevant posts and charts of the original posts.

I'm not trying to convince anyone with Gann methods, just trying to be fair and keep the facts straight...


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## sails (18 January 2011)

Ruby said:


> So does Motorway.  I don't think anything should be read into it.




Thanks Ruby...

Had a quick look at Motorway's posts again, he tends to omit some full stops but the full stops he does use has no space between the end of the word and the stop.

Robertgordon and Ginar both were using this unusual method of quite consistently placing a space between the end of the word and the full stop.  I have noticed since raising this that Robertgordon is now making an effort to put the full stop straight after the word.  

I raised it more out of curiosity than anything else because I found it annoying to read.  I tend to speed read and with the full stops were out in no mans land for me.  So, when Ginar came up with the same writing style, it stood out like a sore thumb.

Haha,  maybe I should have been in forensics...


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## Ruby (18 January 2011)

sails said:


> Thanks Ruby...
> 
> Had a quick look at Motorway's posts again, he tends to omit some full stops but the full stops he does use has no space between the end of the word and the stop.
> 
> ...




Hmmm!  The plot thickens!  It stands out for me too, and reduces the easy readability.  Have a look at Motorway's posts #64 and #82.  (Sorry Motorway, just using you as an example.)


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## sails (18 January 2011)

Ruby said:


> Hmmm!  The plot thickens!  It stands out for me too, and reduces the easy readability.  Have a look at Motorway's posts #64 and #82.  (Sorry Motorway, just using you as an example.)




You're right with Motorway's posts in this thread, Ruby.  I had a look at his Vitamin D thread.  Seems more a typing issue with Motorway as full stops, spaces, question marks, etc seem to fall randomly.  Robertgordon and Ginar were both very consistent with the space before a full stop, comma, etc.

Anyway, better let this thread go back on topic...


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## ginar (18 January 2011)

sails said:


> Thanks Ruby...
> 
> Had a quick look at Motorway's posts again, he tends to omit some full stops but the full stops he does use has no space between the end of the word and the stop.
> 
> ...





There are some odd people on the net no doubt . conspiracy theories abound . full stops annoying ...  give me a break   ..   stand out like sore thumbs  ... youve obviously never had a sore thumb .

RG you are a gentleman , youve treated everyone here repectfully which is more than has been afforded you . tip my hat to you . Do you have a blog at all , if so a link would be nice . thank you


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## sails (18 January 2011)

ginar said:


> There are some odd people on the net no doubt . conspiracy theories abound . full stops annoying ...  give me a break   ..   stand out like sore thumbs  ... youve obviously never had a sore thumb .
> 
> RG you are a gentleman , youve treated everyone here repectfully which is more than has been afforded you . tip my hat to you . Do you have a blog at all , if so a link would be nice . thank you




Ginar, I believe I have been nothing but courteous to RG.  It was only out of curiosity that I noticed and mentioned the same typing style between you and RG.

When you are an avid reader and touch type frequently, these things do tend to jump out as unusual.

BTW - have had my share of sore thumbs too...


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## luke256 (18 January 2011)

TulipFX said:


> So you are short on this trade? Where did you place your stop? Did it get hit? The price of corn is far higher then 3rd of January.
> 
> I do not understand the playing of words to fool yourself into thinking you are right. The position is hundreds of points the wrong site. So whatever tricks you want to play with the definition of seasonal, the fact is the price of corn is significantly higher now.
> 
> I want trades to prove a system. Noone can argue with solid, well announced trades. On either side of the discussion.




Not short on the above mentioned trade as it was not my forecast and I dont trade corn futures. I'm not fooling myself into thing I'm right, I am right otherwise i wouldn't bother posting. 

Here is a simple way to trade the following dates forecast by Robertgorden using onstop orders for entries (allowing a one day variance). Gann used onstop orders.
- 4th of January TOP
- 10th of January LOW




The first red arrow is the inital stop above the high of 3/1/11 then moving the stop down above the next swing top. 
The position is reversed on the 10th as the low came in one trading day before the forcast date.
From this point if the daily high for 14/01/11 is crossed you could move your stop up under the 14/01/11 low. Have to see what happens from here.

Hope this makes sense.


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## robertgordon (18 January 2011)

real time trades are what its all about . listing stops . entry levels etc as close to real time as possible so I appreciate everyones input in this regard . tonight I will be watching the SP500 and trying to get as close to the ( anticipated top ) as possible so bear with me and see how it goes . My calculations indicate that 

The SP500 has either topped at 1293 . and if it trades lower than this on open I will be setting stops around 1295 and trading it down . that is the first scenario .

The second scenario is it could open higher and trade up to one of the levels mentioned earlier so in that case I will employ the same strategy ( for example if it trades up to ) one of the price levels on a 15 minute chart and pullsback and exhibits weakness around that point I will  take a position and set stops at a rwasonable level . in some instances it might be the case that you can get stopped out twice trying to trade off a Top but as my timing indications indicate Top I will have to watch it tonight and see how the market reacts around these price levels in real time . so bear with me and see how it goes .

If the SP500 runs beyond my calculated price levels that will indicate that my Timing calculations were incorrect and I will abort the trade with a predetermined loss  and move on to something else .


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## robertgordon (19 January 2011)

SP500 : Entry@1294.71
           Stop@1295 Close to intraday High


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## robertgordon (19 January 2011)

Last trade stopped out . 
Last trade for today : Entry@1294.74 
                              Stop@1295.27 

The price of 1294 is square Geo Mars so sometimes the price can rise 1c over the longitudal degree so sometimes two trades required to get close to top . if 1295 doesnt hold I will cut my losses and move on .


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## robertgordon (19 January 2011)

The next trade I am setting up for is Corn . My analysis indicates a significant turning point on the 25th January 2011 . At this point in time I think there is a good chance that Corn will top into this date and then trade lower . That seems to be the strongest scenario that my timing and cycle analysis points towards so I am basing this as the most likely technical scenario . The Price levels I have are 688 - 690 . so if it trades up into that date I will be looking for price to reverse at these zones .

The second technical scenario is a counter trend low into the 25th January which as as indicated is a weaker possibility but at least I have two objectives to work with so will watch corn with interest into the trigger date .


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## tech/a (26 January 2011)

Is there an Up date on S@P and Corn??

Corn seems to have gone early.19/1
S@P seems a top is currently made on 14/1

Whats the application of analysis from here?


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## robertgordon (27 January 2011)

looking for 667 to hold . an entry at 662 approx will risk  5 cents or 250.00 per contract .


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## tech/a (27 January 2011)

Corn?

So what if it trades at 668 or more
do things alter or do you take a bigger risk.?
Or do you somehow know the high and then enter
miraculously 5 ticks below it without hind site?


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## robertgordon (27 January 2011)

The time cycles were quite strong into the 25th January which indicated that Corn would top - / + 1 day either side of the forecast date which can sometimes be the case . usually I will allow 1 day latitude but not much more than that and if the market doesnt conform or respond accordingly to my analysis in most cases i will pass the trade up as timing and price co ordinates need to exhibit some sort of mathematical or geometric symmetry . The timing co ordinates dinnt really line up on this trade as initially calculated but there are some interesting relationships with price which suggests that 667 is an important zone to watch for resistance . 667 is on the longitudal degree of geocentric Mars and also trine geocentric Saturn which should offer overhead resistance . 603.50 - 456 = 147.50 + 518.50 = 667 ( 100% range extension ) 667 is also a 1.732 expansion ( square root of three ) on 85 point downside range . so if price cant trade above this level on an hourly chart it would indicate further downside and depending upon your entry level and risk tolerance it might constitute a good trade . of course if this level is broken you might risk 5c or 250.00 per contract .


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## tech/a (28 January 2011)

Wow 

All to determine a trade!!
I Dont know that at Jumbo Pilot makes as many pre flight checks.

I probably make around 20-40 trades a month.
Using this method how many trades do you run at one-time?
How many charts do you plot in the same way as corn and S@P.

If your making a couple of trades a month how do you make a buck?
Or do you trade multiple contracts?

OR

Do you actually do this as a challenge to see if you can in fact emulate the work of Gann and see by result that your understanding of his application of his analysis is identical or very similar.
So rather than trading its like Suduko or a Jigsaw as a challenge to "get it out".


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## tech/a (29 January 2011)

*CORN*

So although Corn did make 667 on the 21st (this in itself if pretty impressive although the time--ing was/is out). I presume then that your still in this trade.

This is the aspect of Gann I find interesting.

If your applying it and you have a definitive exit which doesn't come off---what's plan "B"
Which I presume is a counter trend low as stated in your earlier post.

Will you ADD to the position?






*S&P*
Eventually traded at 1299.4 and then crapped itself.
Seems your analysis was slightly out on both time and price and again I presume the trade never got off the ground.






I notice 1 and 5 tick stops
Do you think perhaps these maybe too tight?
Or
Is it common practice for Gann Practitioners to have extremely tight stops.
*I can see the benefit-*--one win could have a massive R/R return and wipe out a whole string of minor losses.

*Robert.*
In your experience what sort of win rate do you expect.
Both entry and exit.

Ive always thought giving a finite number a very risky business and a ZONE of say 5 pt spread would possibly make the analysis far more accurate.

Have you ever investigated this?

Lastly I have found "Some" of Gann analysis un explain-ably accurate.
I Dont use it other than for amusement but can see where a trained practitioner could have it in an arsenal of tech tools. But again its all about how to extract a buck.

Hence my interest.---I'm not seeing a lot of bucks currently.


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## motorway (29 January 2011)

Question Robert

Your analysis is predictive.

Would every Gann practitioner using the same eg Astrological and other techniques you
are using. Arrive at the same Turning points in time and price as you would ?

Motorway


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## robertgordon (29 January 2011)

Thanks Tech I do appreciate those questions so bear with me for a few days and I will endeavour to answer them . 

My research indicates that Wheat will complete a counter trend low into Tuesday 1st Febuary 2011 before resumption of uptrend possibly into Tuesday 8th Febuary . I need to do a bit more work on this trade .  Pullback targets are  * 813  - 814 .


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## robertgordon (3 February 2011)

Wheat Top 2nd Feb 2011 . Price target 871 - 873 .

initially projection was for cntr trend low but been revised to High .


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## tech/a (3 February 2011)

So Both Corn and S@P didn't work out so both losses then?

I'm afraid the lack of trading information is* GLARING.*

Prior to a trade it appears to be flooding with Mars /Venus/Squares of Nine etc but once it goes past the deadline ---*SILENCE.* Unless of course it appears to be correct.

For me this really does display a lack of trade planning beyond entry.

The lack of *APPLICATION* is clear and as a trading vehical I'm afraid Robert you are *NOT* showing Real time trades.

This has become a typical non event GANN thread.
That makes about 5 in 17 years.


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## Wysiwyg (3 February 2011)

tech/a said:


> The lack of *APPLICATION* is clear and as a trading vehical I'm afraid Robert you are *NOT* showing Real time trades.
> 
> This has become a typical non event GANN thread.
> That makes about 5 in 17 years.



 Obviously a bogus date and price predictor with no chart provided (as we usually have to) and waffle or "my" analysis. And ignorant too. Surprised a "please explain" hasn't been issued but it seems the Gann dart boys are exempt.


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## tech/a (3 February 2011)

Yes good point.

Perhaps Ill try a running commentary on VSA ---- that would be as easy to follow as "Band Gap fiberoptic Evaluation"


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## tech/a (4 February 2011)

robertgordon said:


> Wheat Top 2nd Feb 2011 . Price target 871 - 873 .
> 
> initially projection was for cntr trend low but been revised to High .




Day late but hit smack in the middle.

So I guess short stop 874


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## tech/a (10 February 2011)

Wondered why all had gone quiet here.
Appears all charts are showing the Analysis didnt come off consequently all stopped out.

I'm afraid once again a lot of promise falling very short----when Gann is Applied in a Live Trading scenario it is at best no better than any other form of analysis and at worse a whole lot of effort and in many cases huge sums of money to "learn" how to plot it (Very little on how to apply it) with poor results.

Happy to see this thread continue but hey if the analysis fails then say so---demonstrate how your position was handled---re asses and on to the next.

Nothing wrong with Price not conforming to analysis --- happens to me all the time---its what you do with that information which is critical.

Come on GANN GUYS keep it up!


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## tech/a (12 February 2011)

Surely this thread hasn't been abandoned by the GANN GUYs

What started as full of promise has died well an truly with 4 not so good predictions??

It happens.
You can still make a profit with 30% winners provided they are big profits!
Common dust yourself off and back into it---if your using this to trade after investing countless hrs and no doubt lots of $$ what do you do?

*STOP?*


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## TulipFX (22 February 2011)

What's happening?


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## tech/a (22 February 2011)

Under scrutiny Gann and its exponents falter.
When the exact science is less than exact practical application goes out the window.

The issue of which "Pressure point" is the one that will see price conform becomes a mentally agonizing dilemma for exponents.

I think its a pity as small losses and Large wins---which this method has the potential to deliver-- can be very profitable.

There has been a big turn on the European Indexes of late and the XJO.
With all the middle east issues Id have thought it would have been a monty to find with Gann.


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## luke256 (23 February 2011)

tech/a said:


> The issue of which "Pressure point" is the one that will see price conform becomes a mentally agonizing dilemma for exponents.




Thats a good point only having a fixed date(s) to trade off can hamper trading. Gann wrote that having as many of the following line up would increase the quality of a potential trade: time, price, volume, pattern.

1. I find it best to work out price support and resistance off a weekly chart, 
2. Then potential dates 90 and 120 degrees from prominent weekly swing tops/bottoms.
3. Then only trade when its at major date (+1 or -1 day) and major support or resistance level (allow for a small % variance in price, doesn't have to turn exactly on the resistance level). 
4. Use the daily chart to get a close entry: entry on reversal bar or swing chart signal.


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## tech/a (23 February 2011)

luke256 said:


> Thats a good point only having a fixed date(s) to trade off can hamper trading. Gann wrote that having as many of the following line up would increase the quality of a potential trade: time, price, volume, pattern.
> 
> 1. I find it best to work out price support and resistance off a weekly chart,
> 2. Then potential dates 90 and 120 degrees from prominent weekly swing tops/bottoms.
> ...




All makes sence conditions of entry just like any other setup.
But then of course the brain seizes once again when a major turn comes at a minor pressure point its missed.

But hey its not about being spot on its about profit and being right once could change your life on the right trade with enough $$s


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## luke256 (23 February 2011)

Having dates do create a lot of pressure. 

For me having too many dates too close together is not that practical to trade (but thats just me). Trying to forcasting a top on the 10th and a bottom on 13th is too close for me. I dont try and work out if the date will be a top or bottom 3 months in advance. If its running up into the date and about to meet my resistane point I'll look for a trade to go short. 

Also if the stock/commodity trades up to the resistance level within a day of date forecast but the daily bar is not indicating a reversal I would wait a few days for the swing chart to make a lower top and bottom. Basically wait for the swing chart to show a change of trend.

Gann says to use a 3 point stop loss or a 5 point stop when a stock/commodity is at high levels. That was when the dow's extreme high was around 381 points. These days the dow trades a lot higher than 381 points. So if Gann says buy when the 50% level is crossed by 3 points back in 1930's, today we need to wait for a larger number of points before a major resistance level is considered as crossed.


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## colion (24 February 2011)

Gann's Rule of 4 is in play for GSPC


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## tech/a (24 February 2011)

*Gann's Rule of 4 is in play for GSPC*


I presume this rule is Trendline hit 4 times?
I presume you are looking at a short so how then would you apply this rule?
The trade?


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## colion (24 February 2011)

tech/a said:


> *Gann's Rule of 4 is in play for GSPC*
> 
> 
> I presume this rule is Trendline hit 4 times?
> ...




Not quite.  

The Rule of 4 states that a break of or bounce from a trendline on the fourth attempt could (actually the rule says will) result in a large move.  

How to play?  As you would any other bounce/penetration of a trendline, Fibonacci line, Gann line, etc. where your "I'm wrong" area is well defined. Note also that it is not the initial bounce/penetration that is of most importance but rather how things evolve over the short run, thereby allowing for head fakes.  

Nothing magical and I suppose the rule could be extended (on the basis of my subjective observations) by saying that the more attempts at a line the higher the probability of a large move when the bounce/penetration occurs.  

The rule is not cast in concrete but I've found it to be a useful addition to the toolbox.


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## luke256 (24 February 2011)

Hi Colon,

Do you remember which book or course that rule was in?

I remember reading that the fourth time a stock hits the same level its usually goes through (in How to Make Profits in Commodities). But when it does hold the same level the forth time you can expect a large movement (i.e fourth bottom at $20).

In the same book Gann said the third/forth higher bottom is as strong as three/four lows at the same level. Is the the rule you are using? - i havn't got the book with me so my wording of the rule may be a bit off.

Thanks.


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## colion (24 February 2011)

luke256 said:


> Hi Colon,
> 
> Do you remember which book or course that rule was in?
> 
> ...




The book that I have is "Trading for Profit" by Vodopich published in 1984.  But Googling turns up about 1200 hits, including http://www.solarmatrix.com/lessons/LESSON1.htm.  However, one of the best resources for Gann, Murrey Math, and much more is Bonnie Hilll's website: http://mysite.verizon.net/bonniehill/index.html.


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## robertgordon (2 March 2011)

Hi Members , I am still around and went back over a few of those  trades and realised I was incorrectly applying a few of the rules  so went back to the books looking for some solutions , I admit some of the details and trading approaches were rather vague in detail and application so over the next few weeks will continue on this thread and endeavour to post more specific trading examples with a more rigorous description outling entry parameters position size and trade management outline .


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## robertgordon (3 May 2011)

Time Cycles indicate a Seasonal Low on Cotton for the 3rd May 2011 . The High was 219.70  on the 7th March  . 540 Degrees or 1 1/2 rotations of 360 Degrees gives us a
( possible point of support ) between 140 - 141 which only serves as a price gauge . If price trades lower than last nights close of 146 1/2 and confirms the analysis of a Seasonal Low we could watch price on a 15 min chart to see if  price trades down to this level and holds . Over the last month I have been doing further research into Time Cycles but my pricing projections require some further work so the price level outlined above is worked off the Square of Nine which is only a gauge but Time is the most important element behind a change in trend .


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## tech/a (3 May 2011)

So your trade would be??

As in 
I would buy if---and at this level?
Other wise all we have here is chatter.


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## nunthewiser (3 May 2011)

tech/a said:


> So your trade would be??
> 
> As in
> I would buy if---and at this level?
> Other wise all we have here is chatter.




Bit like the EW threads in my view .......just mind numbing wish wash with no actual entrys or exits or mangageing the trade

getta lot of "i told you so ", lot of hinsight cirve fitting and a lot of it could go this way or that way..... not much in the way of live trading it tho....

bit like this thread, but at least here most already treat it as a joke

as you were.


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## tech/a (3 May 2011)

nunthewiser said:


> Bit like the EW threads in my view .......just mind numbing wish wash with no actual entrys or exits or mangageing the trade
> 
> getta lot of "i told you so ", lot of hinsight cirve fitting and a lot of it could go this way or that way..... not much in the way of live trading it tho....
> 
> ...




Yeh 
As you are


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## Gringotts Bank (3 May 2011)

tech, for a cantankerous old coot, that's one of the funniest things you've ever said!


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## nunthewiser (3 May 2011)

yep

he certainly cracks me up 

cheers


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