# Are you a winner or a loser - attitudes



## kincella (5 January 2009)

(extract.....from the link at end)

Have you ever met a rich person who bitches and
moans all day long.

When you're whining, moaning and complaining,
the only likely outcome is that you're going to
get more of the same crap that you're
complaining about.

When you're complaining, you become a living,
breathing crap-magnet.....end extract

here is the article
I bump into so many individuals, especially at
seminars and when I get to talk to them, it's
obvious to me that no matter how specific you
layout a strategy, you just know they're never
going to be successful.

How do I know?

It's in the way they speak and the language they
use.

They generally fall into 3 categories. You might
think that this bit doesn't relate to you, but
let's see.

The first question that I ask them is, what is
that has stopped you in creating more success in
your life so far?

The overwhelming answer is that they start
talking about events or other individuals who
have somehow controlled their destiny.

They're playing what I call the "blame-game".

----- 
Crazy Jon's Insane Offer: Legally Steal Wealth Secrets
Of The Rich For Next To Nothing
http://millionaire-phenomena.com/crazy-offer
-----

They'll blame the economy, the government, the
stock market, their broker, a real estate agent,
a former business partner, their ex-wife, you
get the drift...

You'll never become wealthy if you fall into
this category.

You have to take 100% responsibility of where
you are at right now. You'll never be able to
move forward if you don't accept this.

Here's an interesting story. I once told this to
someone, (I wont mention who) and they
aggressively came back at me with...

"So if I'm walking down the street and a brick
falls on my head, it's my fault?"

No, it's not your fault... But how you respond
to the event is your choice.

Let me ask you this, do you have any friends or
family that have been on workcover for 5 years,
waiting for payout?

Now don't get me wrong, of course injuries
happen, but your attitude to how you respond to
events that seem challenging at the time is so
important when you're building a foundation for
wealth.

----- 
Crazy Jon's Insane Offer: Legally Steal Wealth Secrets
Of The Rich For Next To Nothing
http://millionaire-phenomena.com/crazy-offer
-----

The next attitude of mediocrity is
"justification".

If you're not blaming, you are usually
justifying your situation in some shape or form.

I've had people say to me, "Money is not really
important to me."

Guess what... These guys are usually broke.
Guaranteed.

Another way of justifying their lack of money
position, they generally use dumb comparisons
like, "Money is not as important as love" or
"Money is not as important as your health."

Isn't that dumb? It's like you can only have one
or the other. I know you can have both or all
three.

The next dumb attitude is complaining.

In fact, this is the worst thing you can do,
guaranteed to keep you broke, and it gets even
worse... Your health will suffer as well.

I'm a big believer in what you focus on expands.
Read that again... It's THAT powerful.

When you're whining, moaning and complaining,
the only likely outcome is that you're going to
get more of the same crap that you're
complaining about.

When you're complaining, you become a living,
breathing crap-magnet.

Have you ever met a rich person who bitches and
moans all day long.

Here's some homework for you that could
potentially give you some instant results in
your life.

----- 
Crazy Jon's Insane Offer: Legally Steal Wealth Secrets
Of The Rich For Next To Nothing
http://millionaire-phenomena.com/crazy-offer
-----

Are you suffering from a little bit or a lot of
the above "wealth-stealing" principles?

You might say to me that, nup, you don't do any
of the above.

Here's a challenge for you...

For the next 7 days, try this. Don't blame,
justify or complain... No matter what.

Look at every experience and say to yourself,

"Mmmm.... What have I done to create this?"
(Responsibility)

"What's my positive response? If at all..."

"What can I learn from this situation that will
be useful to me?"

See how you go... I bet you it's not going to be
easy. But if you take up the challenge, you're
going to be amazed at the insights and
transformations that will start to appear.

...And remember, it's nothing more than taking
100% responsibility of your own life.

Signed with Success,

Jon Giaan
Knowledge Source

----- 
http://millionaire-phenomena.com/crazy-offer
-----


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*

and a quote/extract from Alan Greenspan's book -The Age of Turbulence.

Rational risk taking is indepensable to material progress.  When it is impaired or nonexistent, only the most necessary actions are taken. Economic output is minimal, driven not by the calculated willingnessss to take risks but often as a result of a state coercion. The evidence of human history strongly suggests that positive incentives are far more effective than fear and force.

I would add....people are coerced into not taking risks.

seems to me to be appropriate in our current financial state.....some people are frozen....not taking any risks now.
cheers


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## Stormin_Norman (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*

_'win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing money' _- ed seykota


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## Wysiwyg (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*



> They'll blame the economy, the government, the stock market, their broker, a real estate agent, a former business partner, their ex-wife, you
> get the drift...




Looks like you`re on the bandwagon of "It is all your fault".So when an external DOES ACTUALLY CAUSE you just turn the blame inwards.



> You have to take 100% responsibility of where you are at right now. You'll never be able to move forward if you don't accept this.




Absolutely, you have placed your trust in an external and they have fleeced you clean.SO, it is time to move on and be aware, or at least have some foresight, of the `snakes in the grass`.


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## Nyden (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*

I'm a winner  I know I am - and that's why.


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## roofa (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*

As someone once said
Better to be rich and unhappy, than poor and unhappy.


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## Stormin_Norman (5 January 2009)

*Re: Are you a winner or a loser -attitudes*

some rock star said 'money cant buy you happiness, but it can buy you a big yacht to pull up right next to it'.


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

a couple of sayings....no risk equals no reward....and not gutz and no glory...
successful people take mores risks, than the average Joe....


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## pilots (5 January 2009)

The old saying, money is not every thing, is a saying put out for the poor people, to make them feel good.


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

only people with very little money say that...typical cop out...or excuse...


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## chops_a_must (5 January 2009)

kincella said:


> a couple of sayings....no risk equals no reward....and not gutz and no glory...
> successful people take mores risks, than the average Joe....




Taleb wants a word...


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## theasxgorilla (5 January 2009)

kincella said:


> only people with very little money say that...typical cop out...or excuse...




If you haven't had money and been unhappy then I'd say you're not living through the full spectrum of life.  I can recommend it...helps with empathy.


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## CanOz (5 January 2009)

Well i feel as if i have the world by the A**. But i'm grateful for what i have, and more importantly what i will have, including a great life filled with wealth and health.

But i'm a hopeless loser when it comes to trading, especially FX. Its only my risk Mgt thats kept me square so far i'm sure.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## Julia (5 January 2009)

I agree that our attitude shapes our lives.   Another cliche:  'we may not be able to control what happens in our lives but we can always control our response to what happens'.

And yes, we have to take initiatives.  A lot of people sit back and expect everything to come to them.  They're fond of saying "I'll know when the time is right to make that move.  Not right now".

If you have a go at something and succeed, then you're a step ahead.
If you have a go at something and fail, well you're still only where you were before you tried.  You haven't gone backwards.

Re money:  we've seen in the Storm Financial thread where people who didn't need to leverage to enjoy a decent lifestyle, given their capital base, still did this and now have lost everything.  So money shouldn't, imo, be allowed to become an end in itself, but rather a means to security and the ability to make choices.

I was poor for a while and it utterly sucks.


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## Wysiwyg (5 January 2009)

Julia said:


> If you have a go at something and succeed, then you're a step ahead.
> If you have a go at something and fail, well you're still only where you were before you tried.  You haven't gone backwards.




Nuh, one may have personally registered `only` a failure but the impact on others may be far beyond a simple failure on your behalf.


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## eladamrine (5 January 2009)

I don't quite understand the point of this post. It seems like you're slamming people who you perceive to be unsuccessful because of their financial status and attributing it to some great mysterious internal flaw that all "losers" have. This is just plain wrong on several levels.

1. "They'll blame the economy, the government, the
stock market, their broker, a real estate agent,
a former business partner, their ex-wife, you
get the drift..."

Theres a name coined for this in the field of psychology called the "Fundamental attribution error". It explains the phenomenon when people attribute the reason things happen to another person due to their own internal self and play down the influence of the external environment. However when they look at themselves they are more aware of the influence of external factors. 

In some cases it may be true that the individual blames other factors excessively but it is hard to believe that the ailing economy, plummeting housing prices and increasing interest rates prior to interest rate cuts have not severely affected families to the detriment in some way or another. The reasons you listed may in fact be very relevant. 

However what you say about taking responsibility and controlling the way you react to down turns is certainly true but compassion should still be practiced with people who have been at the mercy of unfortunate economic events.

2. "The next attitude of mediocrity..."
I thought this thread was about "losers" in respect to financial wealth. How can you label people who have not accumulated material wealth "mediocore"? I don't think i even need to explain why and hope that was a typo. 

3. "Have you ever met a rich person who bitches and
moans all day long."
"Are you suffering from a little bit or a lot of
the above "wealth-stealing" principles?"

I don't think there are a certain mold or concrete set of principles that wealthy people will fit into. After all wealth can be gained from a wide spectrum of different ways, many of which require no effort or guiding principle at all...lottery winners, inherited wealth, compensation pay out just to name a few. 

Consider this. In a recent book by a well published author my friend was reading whose title and author have escaped me, it explained that for example out of 1,000 investors just purely because of probability someone has to succeed. Because not everyone can lose money on the stock market. These successful individuals may attribute their success to some underlying principle they follow or some other aspect of their personality or intelligence, but in all likelihood there is another individual who followed similiar principles but would end up losing money. And i believe this is to a certain degree true. That there are several factors which have to go in your favor in order for you to be on a "platform" that is capable of reaching wealth which are completely out of your control. But of course how well you capitalize on this "platform" depends on the so called "principles" you have mentioned. 

Finally i don't think you need that much material wealth to be happy. I remember Bill Clinton saying that he just wanted enough money so that he could travel and read, not to say he didn't become wealthy in his later days. But i think to a large extent that is true, to say that money is important but only important to the extent that your necessities and dreams can be fulfilled. So maybe it is true that the person that remarked to you that "Money isn't important to me", is true, and maybe his concerns are elsewhere. If you look at the most affluent people in the world, the success and wealth is a byproduct of doing something they are passionate about. Bill Gates had a knack for computers and left Harvard before he graduated. Warren Buffet says that he "sings to work each day" and continues to work even though he will be donating the majority of his wealth. If you pursue success for the sake of success it will be a hollow destination.


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

eladmrine.....

it was to get some of you to focus.....instead of whinging and whining..

just take this part for instance
........................................................................
Have you ever met a rich person who bitches and
moans all day long.

When you're whining, moaning and complaining,
the only likely outcome is that you're going to
get more of the same crap that you're
complaining about.

*******When you're complaining, you become a living,
breathing crap-magnet.....t
...........................................................................


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## Stormin_Norman (5 January 2009)

lower taxes so i dont have to subsidise losers.


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## cuttlefish (5 January 2009)

eladamrine said:


> ... etc <edit> ... If you pursue success for the sake of success it will be a hollow destination.




Nice post eladamrine.   And to follow on from the last line - success needs to be understood for what it is before it can be pursued, and success doesn't equal wealth (or wealth doesn't equal success).   I think a lot of people are chasing wealth thinking that that is the path to success - when in fact its probably  - as you indicate - better to chase success  (or pursue things that you're passionate about and enjoy) and then regardless of whether wealth comes from it, success has been achieved.

There are many people who have achieved wealth only to find that it hasn't actually made them happy and has contributed to increased unhappiness.   

There is many a lottery winner that rues the day they ever bought a lottery ticket.

Success is a very personal thing.


That being said - whatever we perceive success to be - the things discussed in kincella's first post definitely can stand in the way of acheiving them.    

For some people success might be achieving a happy and cohesive family life, for others it might be kicking a heroin habit and becoming a productive and contributing member of society, for others its climbing everest backwards with a blindfold on and one hand tied behind their back,  for others its being as rich as buffet or gates.


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## cuttlefish (5 January 2009)

Julia]If you have a go at something and fail said:


> Nuh, one may have personally registered `only` a failure but the impact on others may be far beyond a simple failure on your behalf.





I agree that we shouldn't let our fears trump our ability to move forward in life - but failures can definitely set you back further than where you started from.  For example - committing to marrying somebody and having children is a big and risky step in life.   If ten or fifteen years down the track you fail at it and divorce and move on you are definitely not back where you started.

Similarly if someone has ammassed say $500k at age 35 and then invests it into a business venture which over a 5 year period eventually fails and they lose it all they are also not back where they started.

But any failure, as the cliche goes, is a learning experience, and that which doesn't break you makes you stronger (as the other saying goes).


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## Glen48 (5 January 2009)

I am a winner I have one thing money can't buy.................poverty
Next question are some luckier than others???... I say yes.


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

look guys.....I started the thread to get some of you to start thinking, maybe even looking on the bright side of whatever it is you that is before you, or requires a response from you........
the media is full of bad news.....and then we have all these blog sites....so many people seem to be taking the opportunity to just argue about anything and everything.....
some people are pessimists by nature...or habit , others are optimists.....
just take a look from the other side sometimes....look outside the square you live in....
seems to be so many more negative views out there, than there are positive views


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## CoffeeKing (5 January 2009)

Monday.........- I'm a Winner
Tuesday....... - I'm a Grinner 
Wednesday. - I'm a Sinner
Thursday..... - I'm a Loser
Friday.......... - I'm a Boozer

Weekends either win or lose, (depends on the races) LOL


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## Trembling Hand (5 January 2009)

kincella said:


> ....look outside the square you live in....
> seems to be so many more negative views out there, than there are positive views




That saying completely ignores human psychology and even physiology. Every person is made of previous environment and current opportunity. Different peoples skills to handle the same event are hugely varied because of their training. Someone who grows up in a entrepreneurial environment, no matter how small, will see opportunity where others can only see adversity.

Simply saying look outside the box is as helpful as saying if you trade with disciple you will be a winner. Its not true you need skills to see a way to even start and you certainly need skills to succeed.

"Think outside the square" will trigger the same thoughts as inside because its the same person. The same person who has had a life time of hard wiring their thought process. If it was that easy everyone with a problem of mind/psychological would walk into a Psych office and get the reply to there problems "think outside the square" or think like someone you are not .


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## James Austin (5 January 2009)

kincella said:


> look guys.....I started the thread to get some of you to start thinking, maybe even looking on the bright side of whatever it is you that is before you, or requires a response from you........
> the media is full of bad news.....and then we have all these blog sites....so many people seem to be taking the opportunity to just argue about anything and everything.....
> some people are pessimists by nature...or habit , others are optimists.....
> just take a look from the other side sometimes....look outside the square you live in....
> seems to be so many more negative views out there, than there are positive views





kincella
if you have to choose b/w the 2, your are right, it is better to be optimistic than pessimistic.

having said that, optimism really is just the flip side of pessimism, so you are still hemmed in, still warding off the shadow.

far better, kincella, to be free of both, to go about your business with a contented mind, neither swayed by this nor that, yet still responding appropriately to lifes many challenges.

. . . . is that out of the square enough for you??


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## Julia (5 January 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> Nuh, one may have personally registered `only` a failure but the impact on others may be far beyond a simple failure on your behalf.



OK.  An example of which would be the Storm Financial advisers having failed which won't have an overtly adverse effect on their lives, but their failure has ruined lives of others.  Good point.



cuttlefish said:


> I agree that we shouldn't let our fears trump our ability to move forward in life - but failures can definitely set you back further than where you started from.  For example - committing to marrying somebody and having children is a big and risky step in life.   If ten or fifteen years down the track you fail at it and divorce and move on you are definitely not back where you started.
> 
> Similarly if someone has ammassed say $500k at age 35 and then invests it into a business venture which over a 5 year period eventually fails and they lose it all they are also not back where they started.
> 
> But any failure, as the cliche goes, is a learning experience, and that which doesn't break you makes you stronger (as the other saying goes).



Also take this point, Cuttlefish.

I was thinking more of people who are afraid to try anything new.
For example the person who will never invest in the sharemarket, even in a bullmarket when blind freddy could have done well, but will always seek the perceived safety of a bank account.

Or the person who sticks with a job he/she hates because they're too afraid to make a move.

Or the couple who stick with a lousy relationship because it's become a habit.

But you're right.  Certainly there can be adverse consequences.  But in your example above, wouldn't you quit the business before you'd lost all your $500K?  Isn't it a bit like having a stoploss on shares?

Risking anything needs to have an exit plan.  If a few more people had exerted some risk control a year ago there wouldn't be so many devastated super funds now.


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## kincella (5 January 2009)

james, that sounds better , but outside the square...is outside of ones usual thought pattern...or limits....some people restrict themselves.....they need to go the extra mile..further away from the limits they place on selves....
like the sports stars....the successful ones go the ..extra mile, try harder...than the average ones...
I liken it to empathising....putting yourself in anothers shoes....try to think like they do....but choose carefully....who's shoes you try to walk in.....try to 

seen a signature somewhere...poster says  along the lines....walk in another mans shoes...after a mile you still have his shoes ., hahahaha  ???

or the one about ' careful wrestling with a pig in mud....the pig will enjoy it more than you'


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## cuttlefish (5 January 2009)

Julia said:


> Or the person who sticks with a job he/she hates because they're too afraid to make a move.
> 
> Or the couple who stick with a lousy relationship because it's become a habit.




cheers - this is a good illustration of your point.   I guess life will always take us somewhere - whether we make active decisions or not.   So if fear is preventing taking the risk of moving to a better place from a place we are unhappy with then by not acting we'll remain unhappy/unsatisfied - which ties in with your original idea that there isn't much to lose in making change.

However, something I've been investingating/experimenting with of late is how state of mind and attitude can affect our enjoyment of the situation we are presently in.  

i.e. sometimes the change doesn't have to be an external change to achieve happiness and success - it might be an insight or awareness from within ourselves.  Sometimes these insights into ourselves can have far more lasting consequences for our own inner happiness than active external changes.

This may be similar to the sort of thing that James Austin is talking about a few posts above.

i.e. To take the example of someone unhappy in their job.  Instead of changing jobs, one might find that find that changing ones perception of and attitude to their existing job might enable them to find happiness (and success) within that job without needing to change - and that happiness is likely to be more lasting because it can be taken along to any other job or situation.

In a similar vein - someone may leave a job they dislike only to find themselves in another they dislike - and continue this pattern - always blaming the job rather than finding the opportunity within themselves.

This is just by way of example - I'm not advocating that people don't change jobs if they're in a lousy one!   - but some things that are seen as impediments to success and happiness can be hard to change - for example health problems,  or family ties.  The ultimate success in some ways may be to be able to find happiness/success within any activity and situation via ones own mental attitude.  (Again I guess this may be similar to the sort of idea James Austin is talking about above, and also to a fair extent is in line with a lot of the sentiments expressed in kincella's original post).


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## aarbee (6 January 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Simply saying look outside the box is as helpful as saying if you trade with disciple you will be a winner. Its not true you need skills to see a way to even start and you certainly need skills to succeed..




In this context, I am thinking of the original Turtles. They did not have trading experience. However, the ones that succeeded apparently primarily did so because they followed the trading system with “discipline”. Atleast that’s what I got from that story. From personal experience, I think disciplined trading does help but to get anywhere to the level you are would of course require those “10,000 hours” to get experience and hone the skills. 

Furthermore, the entire edifice of NLP seems to be built on the premise that “modeling” another person’s behaviour/habits etc could get you going in the direction that  person’s achievements. However, to me that could only happen if the person has that quality of being “coachable”.  None of the personal-development techniques would work if this quality is missing. OTOH, if that quality is present, one has the capability to look outside the square or step out of the comfort zone. It’s no wonder that different people attending the big ticket seminars get different results. One person’s life completely changes (shed’s the past baggage), while another goes away with a feeling that he/she wasted time and money attending it. 

Cheers,


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## Lancelot (6 January 2009)

I feel like and am a

*WINNER*

I've seen no compelling evidence to prove otherwise


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## Wysiwyg (6 January 2009)

Lancelot said:


> I feel like and am a
> 
> *WINNER*
> 
> I've seen no compelling evidence to prove otherwise




Nice suit and tie!


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## Trembling Hand (6 January 2009)

aarbee said:


> In this context, I am thinking of the original Turtles. They did not have trading experience. However, the ones that succeeded apparently primarily did so because they followed the trading system with “discipline”.




BS. They got trained and they developed skills. FULL STOP


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## Lancelot (6 January 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> Nice suit and tie!




And gun, dont forget the gun


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## Glen48 (6 January 2009)

People do look on the bright side look at Made-off the warnings were there but they choice to ignore. 
Is that being positive or negative?

If one goes with as much info as possible and then forms an opinion it has to be + or -. 
Tell me where any good positive  news to be found ?
the only good news in the past 6 mths the house prices in St Kilda.

I am sure we are in for bad time but am looking at other ways of making money such as CFD's even though my worst 3 years at school were trying to past grade 1 maths.


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## 2BAD4U (6 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Tell me where any good positive  news to be found ?




Good positive news is everywhere, open your eyes.  Or are you just focusing on the economy and finance?  If so, then that's the entire point of this thread.


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## Bill M (6 January 2009)

kincella said:


> james, that sounds better , but outside the square...is outside of ones usual thought pattern...or limits....some people restrict themselves.....they need to go the extra mile..further away from the limits they place on selves....
> like the sports stars....the successful ones go the ..extra mile, try harder...than the average ones...
> I liken it to empathising....putting yourself in anothers shoes....try to think like they do....but choose carefully....who's shoes you try to walk in.....try to



Hey kincella, there are always people who are positive regardless of the bad experiences that they have gone through. I love to talk to these people because they always see optimism and opportunity. Have you ever noticed most negative people are always negative?

I was overseas last year and ran into a retired guy, the share markets were imploding at the time, I asked him how he would deal with the situation. He said I'm seriously thinking of ploughing some decent money into the market (oz). He was a wealthy man who had a positive outlook and saw opportunity in a hopeless situation.

I myself look at 2009 as the bargain year of my lifetime. I am slowly building up my portfolio and I would like to buy an investment property too. Unfortunately property in my area is not cheap and not getting any cheaper so I will have to go where the opportunity is. If property isn't cheap I will follow through with other investments.

Life is what you make it, lots of doom and gloom reporting around right now and if one spends countless hours on the net reading it they just might start believing it. You can either mope around all day or cry in your beer and blame everybody for your woes or do something about it. I prefer to get on with my life and look for opportunities and there are plenty around.

Thinking outside the box? Nothing is ruled in or out for me, everything is worth looking at.


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## Smurf1976 (6 January 2009)

Something I said about 3 years ago to a group of people at work. It's not an exact quote but something like this:

I'm more than happy to hear anything that anyone has to say on any subject work or otherwise. Indeed I'd rather you told me I'm wrong or you think I'm full of **** than kept it to yourself. And no, I won't take negative comments and use them against you, actually it's massively valuable information to hear. But be warned, if someone's complaining about it then I'll do something about it. 

Interesting results to say the least. Some make it happen, some are productive but not leaders (nothing really wrong with that as long as they're happy not being a boss etc) and some are constant whingers.

Best way to put it would be to say that I've made life hell for the whingers and they've done their best to do the same for me. They sure like to complain, but have fought incredibly hard against literally every significant thing done to fix the problems they complain about.


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## Julia (6 January 2009)

Bill M said:


> Hey kincella, there are always people who are positive regardless of the bad experiences that they have gone through. I love to talk to these people because they always see optimism and opportunity. Have you ever noticed most negative people are always negative?



True.  Sometimes described as having a "pessimistic explanatory style".



> I was overseas last year and ran into a retired guy, the share markets were imploding at the time, I asked him how he would deal with the situation. He said I'm seriously thinking of ploughing some decent money into the market (oz). He was a wealthy man who had a positive outlook and saw opportunity in a hopeless situation.



Not everyone would agree with this.  How does he know that the market won't react as following the last Great Depression where it took about 25 years to make a new high?  If he's already retired, has he considered the possibility that he might not be around to enjoy the recovery?
Another option would be to wait on the sidelines until you see some confirmation of confidence having returned and then buy in.  Sure you might miss the bottom, but you stand less chance of watching your capital diminish further.
How many people were calling a bottom six or more months ago?





> I myself look at 2009 as the bargain year of my lifetime. I am slowly building up my portfolio and I would like to buy an investment property too. Unfortunately property in my area is not cheap and not getting any cheaper so I will have to go where the opportunity is. If property isn't cheap I will follow through with other investments.
> 
> Life is what you make it, lots of doom and gloom reporting around right now and if one spends countless hours on the net reading it they just might start believing it.



Alternatively, the doom and gloom might in fact be pure reality and all your positive take might be pure fantasy.
Much better to be realistic imo.

There was an article by, I think, Michael West in the SMH a few days ago along the lines of "Those people who panicked a year ago were right after all".
Many commentators expounded the view you've expressed above and said OK folks, just hang in there, it will all be just okey dokey.  So that's what a lot of folks did.  Are they regretting it now?  You bet.

It is sometimes said that a depressed person is the one who actually has the realistic take on life.  Whilst I wouldn't go that far, I can't see much advantage in deluding ourselves that all is going to be AOK within the near future, or even the medium term.

However, that's just my view, and good luck to anyone who regards buying now as the opportunity of a lifetime.


----------



## GumbyLearner (6 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> I am a winner I have one thing money can't buy.................poverty
> Next question are some luckier than others???... I say yes.




Great post Glen.

"Wealth keeps out only one of life's evils, and that is poverty"
Dr. Samuel Johnson


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## Bill M (7 January 2009)

Julia said:


> Alternatively, the doom and gloom might in fact be pure reality and all your positive take might be pure fantasy.
> Much better to be realistic imo.




When I venture out my front door every day to take my 2 hour walks I still see the queues to get into cafes, the same happy people on their walks, people going to work and same old same old. At night I go out to my local and it's the same guys drinking away having a good laugh, from factory workers to Government workers all having a good time. All is well on the home front. Still vacancies can not be filled due to lack of workers, the local rag had 5 pages of employment in it. I will start worrying when all that disappears and when we stop hiring foreign workers to fill the extreme shortages we have here. In my wife's job they are constantly short of staff. I think there is far far too much doom and gloom around right now and until I note with my own eyes otherwise I just don't believe it, not yet anyway. Gosh in my area going to an "open for inspection" means I have to fight with marauding hordes of others to buy that piece of real estate, now that is being realistic.


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## Spanning Tree (7 January 2009)

All this talk about how money makes a man better can be a problem if, for example, a politician gets rich through corruption or if a man becomes rich by selling drugs or through child prostitution. A father can rent his son out to pedophiles and become a millionaire in the process. He can keep all his money to himself and give nothing to his son. When the son grows up and complains about being raped, the father could say, "You're poor because you complain."

This attitude of putting the wealthy man on a pedestal strips away all sense of justice. By having this attitude you are justifying corruption, child prostitution, etc.



> Have you ever met a rich person who bitches and moans all day long.
> 
> When you're whining, moaning and complaining, the only likely outcome is that you're going to get more of the same crap that you're complaining about.




Most rich people I meet bitch and moan about how much tax they have to pay. If they only knew all that bitching only increases taxes they would keep their mouthes shut.



> kincella
> if you have to choose b/w the 2, your are right, it is better to be optimistic than pessimistic.
> 
> having said that, optimism really is just the flip side of pessimism, so you are still hemmed in, still warding off the shadow.



I agree. In fact, I think that the reason why we are going through an economic crisis right now is because of optimism. Blinded by optimism, investors buy assets thinking they will go up forever.


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## kincella (7 January 2009)

spanning...that is a ridiculous statement.....
and people can be rich...in life,,,without too much money....its their health, family, lifestyle, friends attitude that makes them rich


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



> I'm no different to most here regardless of age.
> I certainly was of the school ---"Result is equal to effort".
> But when I look back on many life changing events particularly financial---results were and are very dis proportional to effort!
> 
> Often its a case of good fortune rather than good management. In my case it has been and could be seen as partially good management.




In every endeavour ...

Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.


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## Trembling Hand (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> In every endeavour ...
> 
> Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.




Why get out of bed in the morning?


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## Largesse (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> In every endeavour ...
> 
> Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.




this has got to be the most defeatist post i have ever read.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> In every endeavour ...
> 
> Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.






Largesse said:


> this has got to be the most defeatist post i have ever read.




Evidence of otherwise? Or do simply think you determine your success or failure?


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## skyQuake (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Evidence of otherwise? Or do simply think you determine your success or failure?



_
I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul._


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## weird (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Evidence of otherwise? Or do simply think you determine your success or failure?




lol, you obviously don't watch man vs wild.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



weird said:


> lol, you obviously don't watch man vs wild.




I suppose Grilled Bears enjoys the assistance from crew, choppers, vehicles etc.



> Each episode takes about one week to ten days to shoot. Before each show the crew does about a week of reconnaissance, followed by Bear Grylls doing a flyover of the terrain.




We all are tied together in someway or another and to think "I am the master of my fate" is an illusion but great ego boosting stuff nevertheless.


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## mazzatelli (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> We all are tied together in someway or another and to think "I am the master of my fate" is an illusion but great ego boosting stuff nevertheless.




Did you blow up your account recently?


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



mazzatelli said:


> Did you blow up your account recently?




No, how about yourself?


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## mazzatelli (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> No, how about yourself?




It matters not, my accounts fate will be determined by someone else. One can only sit and wait....


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



mazzatelli said:


> It matters not, my accounts fate will be determined by someone else. One can only sit and wait....




Correct!


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## skyQuake (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I suppose Grilled Bears enjoys the assistance from crew, choppers, vehicles etc.
> 
> 
> 
> We all are tied together in someway or another and to think "I am the master of my fate" is an illusion but great ego boosting stuff nevertheless.




Interesting. So now I take you're serious and not trolling, why do you say that _someone else_ determines everything? Who determines what happens to that _someone else_?


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## nunthewiser (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



mazzatelli said:


> It matters not, my accounts fate will be determined by someone else. One can only sit and wait....






Wysiwyg said:


> Correct!





Bollocks



No offense intended , i just couldnt find a more apt reply


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## wayneL (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



nunthewiser said:


> Bollocks
> 
> 
> 
> No offense intended , i just couldnt find a more apt reply




How about somewhere in the middle. We captain our own ship and know where we want to go (sometimes), but know not the weather we'll encounter on the way, nor what friend or foes we might encounter.


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## nunthewiser (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



wayneL said:


> How about somewhere in the middle. We captain our own ship and know where we want to go (sometimes), but know not the weather we'll encounter on the way, nor what friend or foes we might encounter.





Righteous! ....


But a man has choices also and life is full of desicions of which way to steer ones ship but at the end of the day its YOUR choice


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## weird (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I suppose Grilled Bears enjoys the assistance from crew, choppers, vehicles etc.
> 
> 
> 
> We all are tied together in someway or another and to think "I am the master of my fate" is an illusion but great ego boosting stuff nevertheless.




Common comment about Bear for someone that doesn't watch the program, but if you see the cliffs he scales without a rope or being belayed ... 99% of the stuff he does is real ... unless you want to see all on a hand-held camera ... but I guess you need both hands doing what he does.

Easy cop, as are your current statements ... not sure why you are barking so much ... you are making noise, but why ?


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



nunthewiser said:


> Righteous! ....
> 
> 
> But a man has choices also and life is full of desicions of which way to steer ones ship but at the end of the day its YOUR choice




Yes that is it. You make YOUR choice in direct relation to what you perceive. Since "other people" are an integral part of  everyones (except the brethren of which thy **** don't stink ) life, then how can YOUR decisions not be determined by others.

Example: If you sell your stock is it because of

a) random decision
b) others were selling
c) others were buying


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## weird (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*

Do you honestly believe that consistently successful traders, or anyone successful consistently in any endeavor, was thinking the same way as you are currently thinking ?

I agree that they may put a finger on the pulse of the market, but disagree with your other comments that they can not make their decision individually.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



weird said:


> Common comment about Bear for someone that doesn't watch the program, but if you see the cliffs he scales without a rope or being belayed ... 99% of the stuff he does is real ... unless you want to see all on a hand-held camera ... but I guess you need both hands doing what he does.
> 
> Easy cop, as are your current statements ... not sure why you are barking so much ... you are making noise, but why ?



I stand firmly by what I originally posted. Why are you barking?


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## weird (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> I stand firmly by what I originally posted. Why are you barking?




Not barking, just putting logical statements forward without emotion ... not howling at the moon.

Actually I will ask one question, half a glass of water, half full or half empty ? Both is a cop out, choose one.


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## nunthewiser (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Yes that is it. You make YOUR choice in direct relation to what you perceive. Since "other people" are an integral part of  everyones (except the brethren of which thy **** don't stink ) life, then how can YOUR decisions not be determined by others.
> 
> Example: If you sell your stock is it because of
> 
> ...





d) hit target in a range YOU decided on when YOU took the trade
e) needed cash to pay for a lapdance

many reasons NOT controlled by anyone other than oneself .. Sorry Wysiwyg but it seems we have different ideas on what controls ones direction and destiny.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



weird said:


> I agree that they may put a finger on the pulse of the market, but disagree with *your other comments that they can not make their decision individually*.




But I did not type that. 

If you think you succeed or fail on your own then so be it.


----------



## weird (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> But I did not type that.
> 
> If you think you succeed or fail on your own then so be it.




I didn't think your posts were so cryptic ... and I didn't think you spoke in parables ... what was your exact point because apparently I mis-interrupted it ?  

I understand when I buy a stock that there is a seller, and that the entire market is full of buyers and sellers, and perhaps the only control I have in any trade is placing my stop (this last wisdom which I think is a gem, I did not see in your posts).


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## Trembling Hand (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



nunthewiser said:


> Sorry Wysiwyg but it seems we have different ideas on what controls ones direction and destiny.




And thus more likely to effectively work on said outcomes.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



weird said:


> I understand when I buy a stock that there is a seller, and that the entire market is full of buyers and sellers, and perhaps the only control I have in any trade is placing my stop (this last wisdom which I think is a gem, I did not see in your posts).




Beautiful. You determine the stop and the market determines win or loss. Perfect.

My original post was in response to tech/a's post about  success in business and finances ..



> I'm no different to most here regardless of age.
> I certainly was of the school ---"Result is equal to effort".
> But when I look back on many life changing events particularly financial---results were and are very dis proportional to effort!




so open to discussion but the wrong thread subject and the de-railment crew should be here any moment.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



skyQuake said:


> Interesting. So now I take you're serious and not trolling, why do you say that _someone else_ determines everything? Who determines what happens to that _someone else_?




Really skyQuake? Trolling? Afraid not!  

"Who determines what happens to that _someone else_?"

Anyone and everyone determines what happens to that someone else. There are as many examples every second of the day as there are living people.



> why do you say that _someone else_ determines everything?




I didn't type that so get your facts straight before you shoot your finger off.


----------



## skc (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Really skyQuake? Trolling? Afraid not!
> 
> "Who determines what happens to that _someone else_?"
> 
> ...




Are you aware of the different meanings between the words "determine" and "influence"?


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



skc said:


> Are you aware of the different meanings between the words "determine" and "influence"?



Yes I am aware of the definitions. You can substitute influence for determined if you wish. 

The hedge fund closure was determined by ... significantly depreciated assets. 

The hedge fund closure was influenced by ...  significantly depreciated assets.


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## skc (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Yes I am aware of the definitions. You can substitute influence for determined if you wish.
> 
> The hedge fund closure was determined by ... significantly depreciated assets.
> 
> The hedge fund closure was influenced by ...  significantly depreciated assets.




The judge determined that the sentence shall be 10 years.
The judge influenced that the sentence shall be 10 years.

This restaurant serves Australian food with an Asian influence.
This restaurant serves Australian food with an Asian determination.

wysiwyg determined that "determine" and "influence" are mutually substitutable.
wysiwy influenced that "influence" and "determine" are mutually substitutable.


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## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



skc said:


> The judge determined that the sentence shall be 10 years.
> The judge influenced that the sentence shall be 10 years.
> 
> This restaurant serves Australian food with an Asian influence.
> ...




Here you demonstrate context. 




Wysiwyg said:


> In every endeavour ...
> 
> Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.




Here I repeat what I typed.


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> In every endeavour ...
> 
> Either consciously or unconsciously, other people determine our success or failure.



 Am I missing some philosophical meaning here, something deeper than a bunched drunk scalper can figure out? some bigger pattern to live?



Wysiwyg said:


> Looks like you`re on the bandwagon of "It is all your fault".So when an external DOES ACTUALLY CAUSE you just turn the blame inwards.
> 
> Absolutely, you have placed your trust in an external and they have fleeced you clean.SO, it is time to move on and be aware, or at least have some foresight, of the `snakes in the grass`.






Wysiwyg said:


> Wily matey.....Do you think that anyone can be targeted to trade at a loss? For example.... by their stop losses being hit, share price languishing, a sell off after entry, negative posts/press etcetera? Or do you think that it is all random and an even playing field?  :run:






Wysiwyg said:


> I have no doubt stops are hunted  but for the life of me can never understand why little `ol me.
> 
> The most blatant was when I moved my take profit stop away 3 times and it kept coming.After third move I stayed and market went over by one pip (got records to show) and dropped over 800 pips over weeks after that.I just had to be squeezed out and THAT my friends is what I have experienced.






Wysiwyg said:


> That is interesting because i had another crack at forex and indices this week and the same happened as last time.One tick hits on my stops.
> Even swings in my favour were short lived when tick returns to my break even or slightly better.




Nope, I don't think so, but there is a pattern that's for sure


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## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Am I missing some philosophical meaning here, something deeper than a bunched drunk scalper can figure out? some bigger pattern to live?
> Nope, I don't think so, but there is a pattern that's for sure




Ha. : Yes some of my FX experiences were inexplicable. Thanks for taking the time to find them out of three and half thousand posts.


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Ha. : Yes some of my FX experiences were inexplicable. Thanks for taking the time to find them out of three and half thousand posts.




Actually Wysiwyg I have always found your post defeatist. That's in part was where my last Blog post come from, so I thank you for some nice reinforcing material. 3500 posts.... lots of bits and bytes of advice from someone who thinks that failure is an external force.


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## tech/a (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Actually Wysiwyg I have always found your post defeatist. That's in part was where my last Blog post come from, so I thank you for some nice reinforcing material. 3500 posts.... lots of bits and bytes of advice from someone who thinks that failure is an external force.




It can be (an external force) larger companies go broke and innocent smaller ones fall with them.

But if you attempt to be largely in control of your implementation of decisions you can take advantage of the consequences of other outside forces which---while they determine the outcome-----YOU have chosen to be involved.

We make decisions to allow the outcome of things to be determined by others everyday.
Hopping on a plane we rely on pilots,service staff air traffic controllers.
BUT we make the decision!

My 2 indicators for Short term discretion.
Volume and range.
Actually lack of volume and range.


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## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Actually Wysiwyg I have always found your post defeatist. That's in part was where my last Blog post come from, so I thank you for some nice reinforcing material. 3500 posts.... lots of bits and bytes of advice from someone who thinks that failure is an external force.



Okay on your case now. This post is from 15 months ago. I would have thought at the rate you send brokers bust you would have been able to retire by now.


> No tech. these results are for 20 odd mins of trading on the open and same on the close *starting with a friends measly capital of $800. Which will be grown into $10,000 or more within a **couple of weeks*.



So this was done but never repeated? My basic mathematics suggests an 8k account would blossom into 100k in a couple of weeks. But wait  it doesn't work like that does it.  



> In the mean time I will be going about my biz as usual, turning over many times the amount of this and taking many times this P in the real market



ROFL.  See you on the cover of Forbes before Christmas 2010.


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> Okay on your case now. This post is from 15 months ago. I would have thought at the rate you send brokers bust you would have been able to retire by now.
> 
> So this was done but never repeated? My basic mathematics suggests an 8k account would blossom into 100k in a couple of weeks. But wait  it doesn't work like that does it.
> 
> ROFL.  See you on the cover of Forbes before Christmas 2010.




Wysiwyg what has that got to do with you losing all the time & blaming outside factors? I win, I've shown enough snap shots of that from time to time to illustrate that I'm not all talk and advice without able to also WALK THE WALK, unlike many. I often think about making my daily results public but at the same time there is plenty of down side to that, privacy, peace etc without a great deal of upside for me. (other than to stroke my huge ego )

Secondly how do you know I don't repeat it? I think from memory there are 4 other statement on this forum beating that performance. I showed you only a few days ago that i trade enough volume that I get wholesale brokerage rates better than most prop traders. They only hand that out to Muppet's wouldn't they?? 

Would you like to put your money where your mouth is? What about if I could produce 10-20 statements of the same. Would you like to bet against me. 

Or maybe bet against me repeating it in the future?

:bunny:


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## MRC & Co (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



wayneL said:


> How about somewhere in the middle. We captain our own ship and know where we want to go (sometimes), but know not the weather we'll encounter on the way, nor what friend or foes we might encounter.




Completely agree.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Secondly how do you know I don't repeat it? I think from memory there are 4 other statement on this forum beating that performance. I showed you only a few days ago that i trade enough volume that I get wholesale brokerage rates better than most prop traders. They only hand that out to Muppet's wouldn't they??



 Yes I know you pound out more trades than anyone else on this forum. BIG DEAL. 


> Would you like to put your money where your mouth is? What about if I could produce 10-20 statements of the same. Would you like to bet against me.
> Or maybe bet against me repeating it in the future?:bunny:



If you are sooooo hot what are you doing on a forum telling everyone how **** hot you are? Who do you think you're fooling? All the part timers trying to make a go of trading securities? I don't have to put my money where my mouth is. You're the best and you know it.


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> You're the best and you know it.




Thanks for the confirmation. Now just tell me again what "other people determine" my success and your miserable failure again? lol!!


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*

*Mods!!*

this loser/failure stuff should be cut out into another thread. As this one is about the indicators is a good one but so is the failure stuff.

May I suggest a title,

I'm a loser but its not my fault!


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## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> Thanks for the confirmation. Now just tell me again what "other people determine" my susses and your miserable failure again? lol!!




You're welcome, you deserve it.


----------



## nunthewiser (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*

Bummer.........

and my popcorn had just finished in the microwave.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Trembling Hand said:


> *Mods!!*
> 
> this loser/failure stuff should be cut out into another thread. As this one is about the indicators is a good one but so is the failure stuff.
> 
> ...




Go here, pull up a chair and tell all the losers how good you are. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3395&highlight=loser


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## Trembling Hand (2 February 2010)

*Re: Which two indicators would you use?*



Wysiwyg said:


> You're welcome, you deserve it.




And a response to the second part??


----------



## noirua (13 April 2022)

Fake it 'til you make it.


----------

