# Media Inquiry: Full Time Traders



## foolio (18 August 2011)

Hi... I'm writing a story for a 'Be Your Own Boss' special report for the Sydney Morning Herald and would like to talk to someone who trades full-time, as the way they make their living. You could be new at it or an old hand; successful or not so successful ... I'm just interested in hearing your thoughts on why you decided to try it, what the pros and cons are of this lifestyle, what you need to start out (a trading program?) ... basically anything useful for someone considering this choice. 
We'd need to use real name and come take your photo ... I'd need to have a chat (on phone - flexible re times) or share an email by Tuesday morning...
Thanks, Lesley


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## investorpaul (18 August 2011)

Hhhhmmm interesting.... I sent you a PM


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## skc (18 August 2011)

If you offer free AFR subscription for 2 years you might get better interest


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## tech/a (18 August 2011)

skc said:


> If you offer free AFR subscription for 2 years you might get better interest




Yeh

Most full time traders cant afford it!


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## notting (18 August 2011)

My experience with the AFR:

I hope I am not being presumptuous in expecting that AFR is read by people seeking information for investment or trading purposes.

As an investor who behaves like a day trader a lot, I like to take a little note in my mind of what led me to make a trade.

Astonishingly, I have never read anything in the AFR that lead to a profitable trade from reading AFR - ever.
AFR has however on a number of occasions managed to put me off what would have been good trades I was intending to make!

It should be called. ATF - After The Fact.  
Or AEE After Everybody Else
Or EOT End of the Trend. 

I'd like to suggest.  *The Real Contrarian*

'Review' isn't bad though it's backward looking and hopelessly lost in the current mood.

Cartoons are great, brilliant even!!!
Would have been great if I couldn't read!

They shoud be advised that to offer it on the net without a year long contract. 

There are probably plenty of people wanting to check something from time to time on a randome basis, that happens a bit on the net, this would allow them to look at it for a day without having to get off their seat and would generate a bit of income.
The AFR would not have to offer full archive access with that.

This free feedback may assist them in avoiding pending bankruptcy.

Free information for a nice enough question, it is the accurate truth so perhaps that could be something you could print with confidence.


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## wayneL (18 August 2011)

tech/a said:


> Yeh
> 
> Most full time traders cant afford it!




Why this disparagement?


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## tech/a (18 August 2011)

Most are doing it tough---the ones I know.

Heard of a suicide not that long ago.

Sure there are some who are OK even making a killing but this environment is tough.
Im sure drawdowns abound.

Trading fulltime is a bugger of an idea in my view.
My trading would support most wage earners but its as boring as hell
and I have no desire to stop doing what I do its a lot more profitable than trading and Banks love sound companies.(Frees me to do other things with equity).

Capital base has a lot to do with survival.
Those that are struggling (That I know) have small to moderate bases $100-300K
In my view 500k and more is easier.


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## wayneL (18 August 2011)

tech/a said:


> Most are doing it tough---the ones I know.
> 
> Heard of a suicide not that long ago.
> 
> ...




Many points equally apply to all business. Most fail through undercapitalisation and drawdown (cashflow problems). Most non-trading businesses I know are doing it tough too.

But we've had this discussion before, it's horses for courses.

As much as you may find trading boring, others may find the stress of handling employees and accounts stressful.

I'm running a small business at the moment, but I was happier trading full time... much happier.

But that's just me and happy to concede it's not for everyone.

Financially, there are advantages of having non-correlated returns via job/business and trading, which is why I'm out there contending with idiots for money :


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## pixel (18 August 2011)

I'm sitting somewhere between wayneL and tech/a:

Yes, it's dangerous and not for everyone;
but: if you like working on your own, and if you know and love what you're doing, it beats wage-slavery anytime.

Eleven years ago, I have chucked in my full-time job for "health reasons". Anybody who has struggled against red tape and put up with policies as an excuse for common sense, will know what I'm talking about.

I've never looked back with regret, although there have been times - especially during the first lean years - that I considered a less stressful job offer as an alternative. I agree with tech/a that $500K would be a better start than $100K. I've seen lots of enthusiasts fail, who based their "career" on several times that amount and still didn't succeed. In hindsight, I sometimes shudder at my own chutzpah - and luck.

As regards AFR, I can't say that I ever read a single article for the sake of getting help with trading/ investment decisions. I did flick through some opinion pieces in various papers, websites, blogs; I also listened to fellow traders, who thought they're the Holy Scripture; more often than not, they contradict each other and themselves as soon as the wind changes direction. The worst, I believe, is that they need to maintain a "personality", i.e. they have to be seen by their subscribers as upholding a certain set of beliefs and principles - which almost invariably turns into stubborn self-righteousness, rendering them unable to adjust to changing conditions.

I have penned a few blogs on the subject of crib sheets and "free" advisories.
e.g. *On Press Articles influencing Markets:* http://rettmer.com.au/TrinityHome/Trinity/Musings.htm#onpress


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## skc (18 August 2011)

notting said:


> My experience with the AFR:
> 
> I hope I am not being presumptuous in expecting that AFR is read by people seeking information for investment or trading purposes. As an investor who behaves like a day trader a lot, I like to take a little note in my mind of what led me to make a trade.
> 
> ...




I think AFR is excellent for what it is. Reporting/reviewing financial news. It also contains exclusive, well researched information about companies, industries and people. For example, AFR often report potential captial raisings before the actual company announcements - you can use that information to profit / avoid loss - but you need to know how to use it.



tech/a said:


> Yeh
> 
> Most full time traders cant afford it!




$105 / month for online only is pretty expensive in any market condition. (Despite what I just said above). I would consider $250 for the year, however.



pixel said:


> I'm sitting somewhere between wayneL and tech/a:
> 
> Yes, it's dangerous and not for everyone;
> but: if you like working on your own, and if you know and love what you're doing, it beats wage-slavery anytime.




Good story Pixel. 

I think it takes most people several jobs if not careers to discover their most preferred work style and the environment that makes them effective. That aspect alone should rule a lot of people out of being full time private traders. Then there's the actual trading mindset and knowledge part...



tech/a said:


> Most are doing it tough---the ones I know.
> 
> Heard of a suicide not that long ago.
> 
> ...




I think anyone who approach full time trading with a long-only strategy is not doing themselves a favour. They will need a larger capital base compared to others who can trade in more market conditions. Afterall, number of traders has a direct linear relationship with profit - all else being equal.


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## notting (18 August 2011)

> For example, AFR often report potential capital raisings before the actual company announcements



I remember hovering around Woodside and ANZ when they were at their lows during the GFC part 1 and I was put off by the Financial review because they kept flagging imminent capital raising that did not come till I would have been well out!!
They would have been cracker trades, like my NAB trade, had I not noticed those articles.
They also quoted a broker saying ASX was overvalued at $26(from memory). I was about to move on that as well and they stopped me!!
( I know I really stopped myself(looking for the fear) but I do take note of what makes me move)
I have many other examples.
I agree they are good to look at when you see a stock move in an unusual way.  It's often because they have written something provocative about it.  Then you get the reason - because they have written something about it!!
Anyway their good for stoking my fire with!!


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## Julia (18 August 2011)

notting said:


> Astonishingly, I have never read anything in the AFR that lead to a profitable trade from reading AFR - ever.
> AFR has however on a number of occasions managed to put me off what would have been good trades I was intending to make!



May I suggest a rephrasing of the above?

i.e. 







> " After reading various reports in AFR, I found I lacked the courage of my convictions and failed to engage in a trade that I'd previously considered would be profitable."




No malice intended.  Just the thought that we are always responsible for out own decisions.



tech/a said:


> Capital base has a lot to do with survival.
> Those that are struggling (That I know) have small to moderate bases $100-300K
> In my view 500k and more is easier.



+1.


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## notting (18 August 2011)

Julia said:


> No malice intended.  Just the thought that we are always responsible for out own decisions.



Yep that's fine, I took full responsibility, still take full responsibility and am happy to be reminded to. 

Some of the smaller cap stops will show an unusual strong volume movement the day before an article is written, the next day, due to the article, there is an even bigger volume movement!!  
Obviously that is hard to identify on larger stocks.

Coincidence?  Possibly.

They used to write nasty things about Rivkin too. 
He once said publicly almost as if to try to get on with them better - "Their is room enough for both of us."

That got my attention!!!!!!!

I'm sharing it not out of difficulty but simply to help awareness.  Understanding the environment is helpful.

I appreciate your impute Julia, was thinking of you yesterday morning.  I wanted to post "Have you shorted Lynus this morning?" But I was nervous about being too responsible for that!"  Sorry!


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