# CanOz's Capital - a virtual prop shop



## CanOz (16 May 2017)

CanOz's Capital-a virtual prop shop


Concept: recruit 3-5 keen, wanna be traders. Train them over a 3-6 month period. Give them access to my capital with tight risk controls, monitor progress, reward good performance and cull non-performers.


Advantages: compared to a physical firm, no overheads or very low.


Disadvantages: remoteness, inability to act swiftly to kill dangerous positions


The trainees would be responsible for their own data feeds and infrastructure costs. They would be required to have software that would have a minimum of functions.


The training would be one on one and group settings using virtual meetings.


Trade reviews on sim accounts would be used to track progress grasping basic concepts.


Responsibility for the daily setup and context, trade ideas etc., would be shared and rotated amongst the trainees to encourage a team approach.


All the elements of a prop shop, but virtual.


The trainees would need to pass a rigorous selection process that would include a review of their history and back story with an emphasis on athletic achievements, risk management in games of chance, achievement in game theory practice, disciplined behaviour or training, honestly and integrity. Successful candidates would sign a confidentiality agreement.


Successful trainees would sign a binding contract to trade my accounts for a specific period of time with escalating profit share arrangements.


If the model is successful we could then attract more capital and expand the recruiting and training.


This is really just a numbers game. Manage the risk, recruit, train, trade, reward, cull, rinse and repeat.

Now recruiting.


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

The 'Turtles' concept.

With the 'Turtles' a strategy was taught and provided. The majority of trainees couldn't execute the plan.

Are you seeking to train in a methodology, or, simply train in a basic risk management style, looking for a variety of trading strategies from your team?

The latter is the more interesting experiment as you will gain diversification in strategies which could ensure higher profitability on aggregate across various markets.

jog on
duc


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Yes duc, the latter. The prop model typically encourages the trainees to develop their own plays and strategies. I can help by providing a stable of plays that work in this environment, also providing regime change hints and overall context.

They would be encouraged to develop and share their own plays and rewarded for that as well.


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

The most interesting part of this concept is that the only risk before becoming a successful trainee trader entrusted with capital, is time and some data and infrastructure expenses. For me, it's only time as I'm already baring the cost of data and infrastructure.


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## Roller_1 (16 May 2017)

Sounds interesting CanOz, turtles v2. What're you looking at trading in the program?


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> The trainees would need to pass a rigorous selection process that would include a review of their history and back story with an emphasis on athletic achievements, risk management in games of chance, achievement in game theory practice, disciplined behaviour or training, honestly and integrity. Successful candidates would sign a confidentiality agreement.




If you are starting them [trainees] out on a simulated account...why even bother with this. The time that you would need to accurately check CVs etc could be better spent. While I understand the criteria is supposed to increase the chance of a trainee being successful...does it?

You are limiting your chances of finding that 'natural'. Video game players could also fulfil many of the criteria for trading...yet I wouldn't trust them to walk my dog.

jog on
duc


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Responsibility for the daily setup and context, trade ideas etc., would be shared and rotated amongst the trainees to encourage a team approach.




Paranoia would probably cause this to fail.

Even assuming you could get past the paranoia, and you had 1 hyper-successful strategy, essentially everyone would copy that strategy, which removes any strategy diversification benefits that you might have achieved or expected.

jog on
duc


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Duc, be careful you're biases are showing!


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Disadvantages: remoteness, inability to act swiftly to kill dangerous positions




All the prop-shops that I have traded with have their own platform. That is the only way risk managers can manage trades/traders that are out-of-control.

If you are not going that route, how do you plan to trade your capital via your traders?

jog on
duc


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Duc, be careful you're biases are showing!




Of course, I am no more immune to human frailties than the next chap.

jog on
duc


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Roller_1 said:


> Sounds interesting CanOz, turtles v2. What're you looking at trading in the program?




Only futures, Eurex and globex. I'll need to manage risk, so I don't want to be up all night.


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Actually duc, cqg and interactive brokers both have great risk tools available now.


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Actually duc, cqg and interactive brokers both have great risk tools available now.




Ok, fair enough. I have never used those platforms.

jog on
duc


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## Quant (16 May 2017)

Interesting concept but lets just get a handful of gun trader/coders together and algo our way to world domination and I'm in    . My idea of a prop shop has no people in it , just lots of blinking lights and whirring gears  .

I can see you tearing your hair out doing this tbh  , emotions always kill it  , much prefer a Tradinator   


PS the turtle traders  just lucked out trend following basically the most bullish period in market history , there is a reason why what they do doesn't work anymore  ..   Turtles fail in anything but low volatility bull runs


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## peter2 (16 May 2017)

_What are you doing_? 

IMHO you should get a mentor (and pay them, of course) to help you become a better trader yourself. This might be a much cheaper option than what you're proposing. 

UNLESS you'd rather be a trading coach and desire the interaction with others in a business that you love. The home office is a lonely place.


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

peter2 said:


> _What are you doing_?
> 
> IMHO you should get a mentor (and pay them, of course) to help you become a better trader yourself. This might be a much cheaper option than what you're proposing.
> 
> UNLESS you'd rather be a trading coach and desire the interaction with others in a business that you love. The home office is a lonely place.




You know nothing about me or my p/l. You obviously assume that because I don't have the discipline to post trades and records religiously like you that I must not be profitable or something. I wouldn't even dream of doing this unless I was extremely confident in having a profitable method I can stand by and teach others.

My issue is not capital, not ideas and plays, it's time to execute them. I have two young sons that I have committed my time to...therefore I desire something that is more balanced in my life. Intraday trading is a young man's game. I'm happy to train and manage the risk while still trading my longer term plays.

The only mistake I made was to post my plan on ASF.

Thanks to the others that provided constructive feedback.


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

A typical example of why I don't have time to trade. CL had got a real bid on that last low and I was in front of my screens with my 5 month old son. I'd just bathed him and I was just entertaining him when I noticed that the volume delta on CL had really taken off. When I checked the heat map I could see a ton of buying as shorts started to cover, I knew instinctively that if price could get above the point of control then shorts would throw in the towel. I know this from 5 years of screen time. So I put my order for 3 to take the breakout, preferring to sit on a limit order and nab the retest, but alas my son was getting impatient for his dinner. 

Then I sneezed....my son was startled and cried unstoppable for 15 minutes. I scrubbed the order  and went upstairs, only to see later how well the play worked....again. This sh** is not hard.


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> My issue is not capital, not ideas and plays, it's time to execute them. I have two young sons that I have committed my time to...therefore I desire something that is more balanced in my life. Intraday trading is a young man's game. I'm happy to train and manage the risk while still trading my longer term plays.




Is it 'day-traders' that you seek?

Day-trading requires:

(a) a very good system/strategy; and
(b) high discipline for entering/exiting; and
(c) ability to concentrate for long periods; and
(d) ability to intuitively [lots of experience] sense market conditions and change strategies; and
(e) consistency in all the above.

Swing trading on the other hand, is much less stressful. It still requires (a), (b), (d) & (e) but dispenses with (c), which is the primary cause of a breach of (b) as sheer boredom drives you to take marginal trades, or worse still, trades that do not fulfil your criteria at all.

Are you going to implement a swing trading component to your plan?

jog on
duc


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Duc I'm already swing trading futures. I want these guys to take the shorter term plays that abound.


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## ducati916 (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Duc I'm already swing trading futures. I want these guys to take the shorter term plays that abound.




Futures. Leverage. Limit days.

I know loads of different strategies for stocks that work most of the time, not too many for futures though. 

jog on
duc


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## SuperGlue (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Then I sneezed....my son was startled and cried unstoppable for 15 minutes. I scrubbed the order  and went upstairs, only to see later how well the play worked....again. This sh** is not hard.





On the lighter side of things, your son is a natural born trader.

He was impatient cos he knew what was coming but dad is cautious and slow.
He was startled cos dad didn't excuted the order immediately. Duhhh dad.
He cried unstoppably, look dad what we could have made in 15 minutes, This sh** is not hard dad...waaa waaa hahaha.
For every action there is a reaction.

You've already got one in the family.


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Got two super glue....my oldest already knows which market is which on the screens.


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## Joe Blow (16 May 2017)

CanOz has forwarded a number of broker statements to me via email that confirm that he is well capitalised and more than able to fund the proposed concept as outlined in the first post in this thread.


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## fiftyeight (16 May 2017)

10,000+ posts and a member since 2006. Fairly confident he is not here playing games or trying to scam anyone haha


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## OmegaTrader (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> CanOz's Capital-a virtual prop shop
> 
> 
> Concept: recruit 3-5 keen, wanna be traders. Train them over a 3-6 month period. Give them access to my capital with tight risk controls, monitor progress, reward good performance and cull non-performers.
> ...




My posts and threads are my initial application

1) Pm me if you want to take it further
2) I am no genius or athlete. I have no experience. But I have a lot of time and a hard head.

Good luck getting off the ground


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## skc (16 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Concept: recruit 3-5 keen, wanna be traders. Train them over a 3-6 month period. Give them access to my capital with tight risk controls, monitor progress, reward good performance and cull non-performers.
> 
> Now recruiting.




Interesting plan. My random comments:

- The plan works in concept but obviously tonnes of details to actually nut out. Like your binding contract will probably need to be drafted by a lawyer, and you might need an actual risk guy to monitor positions in real time. You may have already done some of these...

- Everything you described will be time consuming to put together and actually execute... including active and close management of 3-5 trainees. Given that you are time poor (or time poor in selected parts of the day), it may or may not work from that perspective.

- I am wondering what's in the confidentiality agreement? Is it your trading method? It would be impossible to enforce - they learn, quit, trade their own account your way - you can't possibly know.

- Aside from ASF, where else are you marketing to find your prospects?



SuperGlue said:


> He was impatient cos he knew what was coming but dad is cautious and slow.
> He was startled cos dad didn't excuted the order immediately. Duhhh dad.
> He cried unstoppably, look dad what we could have made in 15 minutes, This sh** is not hard dad...waaa waaa hahaha.




Lol. This is hilarious. I can't just like your post. I have to quote it and tell the world that I think it's hilarious...


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## CanOz (16 May 2017)

Ok, so here are the software and hardware requirements. If you don't have the funds to undertake this then wait a while, Trust me its worth having enough to get started with good gear.
Subscription fee: $0.00 - just a reminder, this costs you nothing.
*Minimum Platform requirements:*
-A Jigsaw Dom or equivilant (veloxpro bookmap)that can display a heatmap of trades and available liquidity, prints, pulling and stuffing of bids and offers
-A charting platform that can display a compositie volume profile, specific range profiles, cumulative delta volume, VWAP
-A CQG or Continuum data feed
-TT, Sierra Chart, CQG Intergrated Client, Ninjatrader are all useable charting platforms. You need to be able to accept a CQG feed in order to trade my accounts.
*Hardware:*
-Minimum two large screens, more is better in the long run, you'll be trading up to ten markets eventually so you need space. Volitility could change this, but right now theres fewer opportunities.
-you will want a decent amount of RAM, an i7 processor and room for graphics cards. A decent size SSD is good, 500gb+

*The type of person:*
Whilst i'm not against taking traders that have a track record, i need to know that you're open to new things and that we can analyse the market using a similar style. I'm not into oscillators and other similar indicators. 

To me the biggest advantages for someone that wants to trade someone elses money you need to show:
Discipline
Tenacity
Competitive drive
Understanding of game theory

If you already know how to read a chart, then knowing where trapped traders are is an advantage. Being able to execute from a DOM. reading and understanding Market Profile, specifically volume profile is deisreable.


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## craft (16 May 2017)

I don't know if any of the recruits will make you big money. But I suspect from your posts on ASF that that this might be your thing to be a coach/mentor/friend/boss (facilitating an interpersonal aspect of trading - that is missing in retail trading). Kudos for giving it a go. I'm sure you will manage any risks that you may face from the endeavour. It seems a no brainer risk/reward for your recruits

Good luck.


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## Gringotts Bank (17 May 2017)

craft said:


> I don't know if any of the recruits will make you big money. But I suspect from your posts on ASF that that this might be your thing to be a coach/mentor/friend/boss (facilitating an interpersonal aspect of trading - that is missing in retail trading). Kudos for giving it a go. I'm sure you will manage any risks that you may face from the endeavour. It seems a no brainer risk/reward for your recruits
> 
> Good luck.




I think this is a good observation.  Personally, I find the day-to-day of trading extremely boring, and I've known for quite some time that boredom and big profits cannot co-exist.  Modest profits, yes, but not the sort of returns you can base a lifestyle on.  I may well have no place in the markets at all (reward for effort is small), so it's just as well I have a job.

"Play by any rules that you care to name.
What's my scene? (I gotta know)"


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## Quant (17 May 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think this is a good observation.  Personally, I find the day-to-day of trading extremely boring, and I've known for quite some time that boredom and big profits cannot co-exist.  Modest profits, yes, but not the sort of returns you can base a lifestyle on.  I may well have no place in the markets at all (reward for effort is small), so it's just as well I have a job.
> 
> "Play by any rules that you care to name.
> What's my scene? (I gotta know)"




Well I'm rarely bored , if the markets are dull I spend time exploring ways to improve/ find edges . I am the James Brown of markets ... " The hardest working man in trading "   and no coincidence the harder you work the better the returns . Never let any impress their opinion on what can and cant be done , they are only expressing their limitations , Not Yours  . I have a job and its trading and I strive for excellence  .....

Last night during SPX grind I built and tested a damn good top 50 stock screener and it will help me make more money , never ever stop looking


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## Quant (17 May 2017)

Quant said:


> Last night during SPX grind I built and tested a damn good top 50 stock screener and it will help me make more money , never ever stop looking



And regardless of how " difficult " it is I will build an algo around this incorporating a fundamental and tech quant based approach that I believe will be impressive enough to auto trade a managed fund  , sounds hard and difficult hey , that's a good thing because if I do it I will be one of few not one of many & the best edges are not obvious or easy ... so you stick to " simple " and that rut that simple lives in  .. good luck , something I don't rely on


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## Joe Blow (17 May 2017)

Let's keep the thread on topic for the sake of the discussion please. And be nice to others.


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## CanOz (17 May 2017)

We have our first two trainees.

The first module of the training will cover:

-Introduction to CME and Eurex Products
-Auction Market Theory Basics 
-Using a Depth of Market

We'll go for two hours on a GoTo Meeting or Skype call and then i'll give some vidoes to watch and some DOM excercises to do. I'll post the vidoes here after the session as well.


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## dryath (17 May 2017)

I have to say I like what you're trying to do.  And whilst I don't think this is for me (don't have the level of dedication you are looking for).  I'm definitely keen to see how it plays out.  And if you're posting videos here, i'll definitely watch - as it sounds very interesting, and all of which I know very little about it.  So hey, I might just learn something 

GL CanOz, don't let the haters get to you.


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## Gringotts Bank (17 May 2017)

Dryath, everyone here has been respectful in their comments apart from quant.

This idea is unlikely to work.  If the reason for not trading one's own account is because of sneezing (or something similar which always interrupts the day), then you have to question what's really going on.

Why would you not say to the wife - "this is when I trade - look after the kids".  Or if interruptions _always _happen, then simply set hard targets and stops when the trade itself is placed.  Wouldn't either solution be 100 times easier than setting up a complicated remote trading room and giving strangers your 'hard earned' to play with?

I know it's not boredom because OP lives and breathes markets.  So what is it really?  Fear of fully committing?  Fear of taking responsibility?  Who in their right mind would give away great set ups for free?  Nothing about this makes sense.  

From what I've heard about business franchises, the owner has to be 100% committed and *involved* in the *day-to-day* running in order for it to work.  I can't imagine this would be any different.  What happens when the kids need you and risk limits suddenly get busted open and you have 3 of your traders on the phone needing advice?  'Sorry guys, it's bath time'....?


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## Quant (18 May 2017)

I know canoz personally and I know how hard he works and his thoroughness . You think he is scared , are you crazy , bravest move ive seen in a long time . KUDOS to the man and if anyone can pull it of I'm sure he is the one  .. Good luck to him and positive energy from me



Refer to this  GB
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


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## Gringotts Bank (18 May 2017)

Quant said:


> I know canoz personally and I know how hard he works and his thoroughness . You think he is scared , are you crazy , bravest move ive seen in a long time . KUDOS to the man and if anyone can pull it of I'm sure he is the one  .. Good luck to him and positive energy from me




In business you need to be aware of your motivations.  The _*stated *_motivations (ie. freeing up time to spend with a young family) clearly do not make sense.  This virtual trading room idea involves much more work, involvement, time and stress.

So if one is unaware of the real reasons and motivations, this indicates a block in awareness.  In trading and business, major blocks in awareness are problematic.  So again my question is:  what's really going on here?

If the real motivation is to set up a business which will ultimately make more money with less work, then great.  I wish him the best.  If the real reason is to be able to sidestep responsibility if it doesn't work, then that's not good for anyone.  Superglue's comments were meant in jest but there were truths there that would apply to most traders to some degree.  Who here hasn't hesitated before clicking the buy/sell button?


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

Thanks for your comments guys.

Quite simply and the last word on my motivations for this, I refuse to give up the valuable time I have with my young family now. My dad was building a business when I was young and I didn't see him much. I really believe to build strong bonds with my sons, I need the time with them when they're young. I have time available but I just don't have the time to intraday trade. I still swing trade, in fact some of the capital for this project will be from profits made from swing trading.

To trade and absolutely crush every opportunity the markets throw at you, one needs to be available 24/6, or automate. There's a reason that 'married with 2 kids' doesn't fit the ideal prop applicant. It doesn't work. I know because I've interviewed with them, held long discussions with their lead trainers and I have half a dozen contacts in the business. There is no work/life balance in the beginning. Only one of these guys has a marriage left.

I absolutely love the markets, I have more ideas for trades than I can possibly execute. I also have significant experience in managing and leading a lean, collaborative organisation. I have skills to transfer knowledge. I enjoy that level of interaction with people.

For more than three years I've had this idea in my head. I'm not alone. One of my contacts is doing something similar, perhaps we'll do something together one day.

This is just me executing a plan on an idea that I've had in my a long while.

Please keep the remainder of the thread on topics other than my motivations.


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

Good timing for this. Well Done Aaron.

Chat with Traders


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## Rypieee (18 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Good timing for this. Well Done Aaron.
> 
> Chat with Traders



When will you do an interview with him???

Don't have the capacity to join up in your trading firm at the present but will be watching this thread for any content that you share, good luck CanOz! Maybe when I am in a better position and you open up round #2!


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## OmegaTrader (18 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> We have our first two trainees.
> 
> The first module of the training will cover:
> 
> ...




I and other forum lurkers would really appreciate those videos and resources. That would be  altruistic. You could let Muhammad come to the mountain. Ie do the foundations, get the software, go trial then come to me for the other qualities I am looking for. That would reduce initial work and show their intent.


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

OT, almost everything is available on YouTube. I'm just aiming to pick the best of it.


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## OmegaTrader (18 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> OT, almost everything is available on YouTube. I'm just aiming to pick the best of it.



How do you determine who is best if they have never traded before?
What characteristics make someone the best?


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

The best material.


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## Skate (18 May 2017)

*OBSERVATION*

Another thread that won't end well - but in the meantime it will make exciting reading.


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## ThingyMajiggy (18 May 2017)

Skate said:


> *OBSERVATION*
> 
> Another thread that won't end well - but in the meantime it will make exciting reading.




Seems to be a common denominator among these threads too, just another observation.


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## Joe Blow (18 May 2017)

Folks, I've cleaned up this thread once again. I'd like to respectfully request that it be kept on-topic and free of insults or personal attacks. Thank you in advance for your co-operation.


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

Among the qualities of the successful traders i know, myself humbly included, is tenacity. To never want to admit defeat is one of the highest ranking qualities in my view. This is difficult to quantify. Athletes display a competitive drive, they want to succeed and they strive for excellence. Thats why athletes can often make great traders. SMB capital mentions this i elieve in One Good Trade.

The hardware requirements i mentioned are a guideline. If you can't run one DOM and a couple of charts on your machine how are you going to look for opportunities on 6 or more commodity markets when equity markets are dead for volatility?

One Good Trade by Mike Bellefiore has allot in it for selection of traders.....worth a read if you want to know what it takes.

There are tons of videos on YT regarding trading. Most of this is utter garbage. There are however, some real gems.


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

View attachment 71195
View attachment 71193
View attachment 71194

	

		
			
		

		
	
 I wasn't going to post a video for a while, however this particular video i had picked that explained Auction Market Theory in laymens terms really well, played out tonight for me in GC.

Tonight in GC we looked above the balance and failed. I place a sell limit (3) at the level that it broke out of and retraced through. We got the VWAP test and 1 contract off. We may get stopped out on the rest but the risk to reward in these types of plays is very good.


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

Heres the trade.....


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

Made a point to get more involved today, even though i had one son down with a fever...

In a market like this there's opportunities presenting every hour....I'll send Joe the statement just to confirm. Thats it for me for a while....


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## kid hustlr (18 May 2017)

Enjoying this thread Can.

Having a little one myself i can also appreciate the work life family balance issue.

As an aside you should have lifted all the GC at VWAP given it's against the medium term trend  (just yanking your chain)


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## CanOz (18 May 2017)

It's still going kid....I'm in bed unfortunately!


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## CanOz (19 May 2017)

I needed that runner....gold got flogged


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## kid hustlr (19 May 2017)

Haha yes I see it dumped overnight - should have run them!


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## OmegaTrader (19 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> View attachment 71195
> View attachment 71193
> View attachment 71194
> 
> ...





The attachments don't work for some reason.

Now I get the joke traders are really market makers.

The bet it reverts back to the current range looks alot like that

Thanks


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## CanOz (19 May 2017)

The attachments were the charts anyway.....yeah it reverted


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## OmegaTrader (3 June 2017)

Any update on progress of your prop etc.


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## CanOz (3 June 2017)

Simmering along at the moment, working on a partnership to assist with the training and possibly clearing / risk. Still in the planning phase though. Aim to start three potentials in July at the latest. In the meantime i need to get the business setup. Lots to do.


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## scholesy (6 June 2017)

Long time lurker but cannot afford to stay quite at this.

First of all CanOZ, thank you so much for the bottom of my heart at this wonderful opportunity. The haters here don't see how wonderful an opportunity this is. I have tried trading on my own, TopStep, went to a crappy Prop Trading Firm in Melbourne who are just eager to generate volume commissions for themselves by getting you trade spreads on bills that barely move...

None could come close to this! I am really keen and want to grab this opportunity with both hands. Here is a bit about my background.

I am quite experienced but extremely hungry for success. I have tried many different things - fundamental value investing on my own, investment analyst for a private trader, prop trading, tape reading and scalping US bond and currency futures, small-cap stock trading...and currently, I am swing trading CFDs and FX based on price action and market structure basis. 

Its funny you linked to a Youtube video I remember watching 6 months back and thinking this kid is a genius. I was wishing I had started so early!

Anyway, I have a couple of questions:
1. Are you able to provide a rough background of fixed vs recurring costs for the set up?

So I know, a CQG/Kinetick data feed will cost easily AUD$60 per month. I can get the CQG data to be free if I set up an account with Ninjatrader as I have already used them before and I really like their platform. 

The Jigsaw DOM costs USD$400 + USD$50 per month. The tools are good but for a start-up trader, it is ridiculously expensive. Are you okay if I find cheaper alternatives? I do know of a few.

Hardware is not an issue as I have that at my work place.

2. I will probably be looking to trade after work so it will be around European session. However, I cannot stay up for US session as I will need to sleep for work. Does that work?

Anyway, please PM me if you still have place for one more person to join you or even to help you out. I am keen and hungry to learn! I currently work in the industry so I only ask for your absolute discretion and trust. Thank you again


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## CanOz (6 June 2017)

Probably best to setup a Skype call scholesy....please pm me and we can make some arrangements.


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## Gringotts Bank (18 June 2017)

3 part series on Youtube called 'Million Dollar Traders'.  Exactly what you're proposing here Canoz.  Have you seen it?


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## CanOz (18 June 2017)

Yeah, it's a few years old.


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## Gringotts Bank (18 June 2017)

CanOz said:


> Yeah, it's a few years old.




The supervisor is a good example of what not to do! 

Constantly berating his traders for not making money .   I wish someone would say to him "Can you trade, pal?  Let's see you do it then!".  The ugly truth of his situation is that he cannot do it himself, otherwise he would.  He'd rather sit there and tell others what to do them blame them when it doesn't result in profit.  Not cool.

The ex IBM IT guy Simon is an interesting study of how overthinking destroys profits.


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## scholesy (19 June 2017)

Gringotts Bank said:


> 3 part series on Youtube called 'Million Dollar Traders'.  Exactly what you're proposing here Canoz.  Have you seen it?




The style would be very different as well. Those guys were not really intra-day traders. More like Global Macro investors finding Long-Short stock trade ideas looking for a 5%-25% return with high sharpe ratio and low volatility over the year.


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## CanOz (30 June 2017)

A little update. 


Work is starting on the business, I now have my own clearing firm proposal with risk management. Still working on a deal for the training. Business name is being registered soon. I'll have the training program complete by mid July. 


I'll also have a profile of the ideal trainee candidate completed but at the moment I'm still looking for one more person that has the time, money for expenses, and a demonstrated track record of tenacity or competitive spirit. 


Aiming to start training around the 17th of July.


Pm me if you are interested.


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## OmegaTrader (27 July 2017)

CanOz said:


> A little update.
> 
> 
> Work is starting on the business, I now have my own clearing firm proposal with risk management. Still working on a deal for the training. Business name is being registered soon. I'll have the training program complete by mid July.
> ...



Any updates on how it is going??


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## CanOz (27 July 2017)

Not much new here. I'm not taking on any new recruits as the time availability is just not materialising. At the moment I'm trying to decide whether or not to move back into my external office as it's not productive working from home....

So just plodding along with one trainee at the moment.


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## CanOz (27 August 2017)

Bit of an update here. Initially i was expecting to be able to do this fulltime once our nanny started. Having two kids, a wife and nanny living under one roof in a 3 bedroom townhouse is quite challenging. My office is a sharded playroom in the garage. Our house plan has now been submitted as a DA because of the design...its taken over a year to get to this stage....its been a very frustrating year and i simply have no solitary time available. To make matters even more frustrating, the body corporate is forcing me to remove the internet cable i have inconspicuously draped outside the family room window to the garage....i'll have to go back to WIFI. So in a nutshell, i have more delays in getting my business of the ground. My trading is taking a more systematic approach although when i do have time i still trade GC, CL, FGBL and the DAX. I;m not guiiving up on the Prop concept and i'll keep coaching the guys i have now, but i won't be doing much in the way of formal recruiting or training of anyone new.

Seems like life is getting in the way of my passion. I knew this when i wanted kids, but just underestimated the time commitment when they're at this age.


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## skc (28 August 2017)

CanOz said:


> Seems like life is getting in the way of my passion. I knew this when i wanted kids, but just underestimated the time commitment when they're at this age.




Life happens! I know what you mean though. I am sure if I was to plot a chart of "kids hours at home" vs "trading P&L" there'd be a statistically significant relationship.

As the old saying goes, the market will always be there... but your kids are only kids for so long.


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## Gringotts Bank (14 May 2018)

Was it possible to train people into profitability?  In other words, is a systematic approach to trading sufficient to ensure profit, or are other factors at play?  The famous Turtle experiment inidcated that profitability was heavily shaped by attitudinal factors, which is why I ask.


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## CanOz (14 May 2018)

I didn't train anyone, my plan in the bin as soon as my nanny quit, i became the nanny.

Of course its possible, how do you think Prop Shops survive?


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## Gringotts Bank (14 May 2018)

CanOz said:


> I didn't train anyone, my plan in the bin as soon as my nanny quit, i became the nanny.
> 
> Of course its possible, how do you think Prop Shops survive?




I have always thought they survive by the fact they can attract a huge number of applicants (with the potential for big $), and then cherry pick guys who already have the necessary mental attributes for success.  Once identified, such guys could trade an MACD cross system and make it profitable.

I bet if you had minwa and told him to only trade MACD cross (no news feeds, no volume, no lines or squggles), but allow him to choose which trades to take, he'd make it work.


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## CanOz (14 May 2018)

GB, unfortunately its not that simple. But i'm going to leave it there as you obviously have some of your own beliefs  and i don't want to change them.


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## Gringotts Bank (14 May 2018)

CanOz said:


> GB, unfortunately its not that simple. But i'm going to leave it there as you obviously have some of your own beliefs  and i don't want to change them.




How simple is it then?  

All approaches to trading (and the signals they generate) can be encoded to run automatically, even news feeds.  So if a prop shop has something reasonably profitable, why on earth would they employ 20 guys to implement it for them and split the profits?  Makes no sense.

I reckon what they are doing is saying "ok, we want people who have the attitude and beliefs which create success" and then overlay a few rules like daily loss limits, exposure, portfolio heat etc.  I have no problem if that's what they do, but let's not pretend they teach them how to trade.


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## tech/a (14 May 2018)

I have always found the world of Prop trading of interest.

I remember T/H many years ago finding trading the HSI
like a licence to print money.
To the point of trading a day or two for mates down on
their luck and handing over $50K. That's a great mate
right there!

I remember asking him that if it was that easy to pick up
$50K---even a month not days---why trade prop.

His answer was there is nothing like being able to trade size.

I get that 100 lot as against a few lot---different strategies and
if your big enough can help hunt levels.

As Can says Not that easy---simple.


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## tech/a (14 May 2018)

I don't know about that

If A duck can trade then anyone can trade.


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## ducati916 (13 September 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> How simple is it then?
> 
> All approaches to trading (and the signals they generate) can be encoded to run automatically, even news feeds.  So if a prop shop has something reasonably profitable, why on earth would they employ 20 guys to implement it for them and split the profits?  Makes no sense.
> 
> I reckon what they are doing is saying "ok, we want people who have the attitude and beliefs which create success" and then overlay a few rules like daily loss limits, exposure, portfolio heat etc.  I have no problem if that's what they do, but let's not pretend they teach them how to trade.




When I traded with Bright a number of years ago you [the trader] had to put in your own capital. This was held with Goldman Sachs and they provided the leverage, up to 100:1 intra-day, more if you had clearance.

Bright [the firm] got a cut of the commissions on a per share basis from GS. Commissions were definitely lower than you would [as the trader] get if you were trading your own account, so it was [sort of] a win-win.

The primary strategy [at the time] was bracket trades. These trades only ran from the open for about 30mins and then closed out. To make it profitable in dollars, lots of leverage, lots of trades. At the time, it worked well.

There were a few other strategies, most worked reasonably well, all really basic and simple. Generally simple is best.

jog on
duc


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## lmz4005 (15 May 2019)

Hi Tech/a, CanOz. 

I am newish on this forum but interested in this chat thread.

 I have been trading ASX for years (swing/Momentum trades holding for 2weeks to 4 month) with fairly consistent positive returns.

I am now looking at some day trading strategy. Currently paper day trading on 5mins / 30mins charts at the open trying to capture a move for most of the day using a trailing stop.

I usually wait 3 5mins bars before making any trading decision. If news related I feel that 5mins is too slow. I wonder if I should switch to 1-2mins for news.

Any views?

Thanks
Laurent
Brisbane


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## tech/a (15 May 2019)

*IMZ4005*

Couple of questions.
What priced stocks are you trading.

Micro's
Small caps
Blue chips etc.

What sort of capital base?

If your trading for a living you'd need about an average of $900 a day.
In my opinion--to pay a mortgage, finance a family and tax provisions.

If its a bit of a sideline then that's different.

For you and others investigating this path have you considered
E minis and Futures.
Way way more liquidity and in my view better to trade.


https://www.investopedia.com/univer...ini-futures-contracts/what-are-the-eminis.asp
*
In answer to your question*

It depends on liquidity.
Without it charting in lower time-frames is pretty useless.
Your better off cutting out the noise and trading higher time-frames
and a little longer time horizon.
I know your dilemma---seeing a stock fly up in the first 5 min.
Never to return for an opportunity, which can mean a longer
2-3 day opportunity. Or often in Futures worth fading.
I very rarely Day trade aussi Stocks but often trade and hr or 2
the DAX


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## lmz4005 (15 May 2019)

Thanks for reply. Looking at trading small/mid caps. I have considered the Eminis and although I do like the liquidity, individual stocks suits me better.

So you would trade the Dax at night time or evenings right ?


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## tech/a (15 May 2019)

Yes


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