# Prop trading graduate programs?



## Yanoshi51 (1 June 2016)

Hello! Basically I'm a 19 year old who is majoring in Finance (graduating at end of 2017). I have been learning about trading since I was 16, and started swing trading with real money at age 18. I started Day trading 6 months ago and have stuck to that as it is more consistent and profitable than what I was doing before. I am purely a a technical swing trader and use a systematic strategy for day trading. Because I have Uni in the day time, I trade US markets at night. 

I want to know what options are there for me to work as a prop trader? I don't know where to start. Could someone help me with this? What are the prop trading firms in Australia that I can apply to? citibank, Ubs, goldman sachs??..
Also feel free to ask me questions about my trading!

Thanks!


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## kid hustlr (1 June 2016)

Google:

Propex
Aliom

THe firms you listed are investment banks, they may have a prop desk but don't really take prop traders studying at uni.


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## CanOz (1 June 2016)

kid hustlr said:


> Google:
> 
> Propex
> Aliom
> ...




Also Genesis, Star Beta and Phoenix....aliom and epoch merged to create Genesis


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## Wysiwyg (1 June 2016)

I find it interesting how they want to hire traders. To me this means there is no tradeable auto or manual system. Like discretionary is the way to go.


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## CanOz (1 June 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I find it interesting how they want to hire traders. To me this means there is no tradeable auto or manual system. Like discretionary is the way to go.




Allot of the spreaders are automating now, not just the legging in, but the actual term structure plays.


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## Gringotts Bank (1 June 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I find it interesting how they want to hire traders. To me this means there is no tradeable auto or manual system. Like discretionary is the way to go.




I think about it this way - you have 1000's apply, and your filter is to pick those who perform.  Discretionary winning/losing seems to be a fairly stable trait over a longer time frame.  It's definitely changeable, but stable.  It's a trait with inertia.  

So it's sort of mechanical in a way.


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## CanOz (1 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think about it this way - you have 1000's apply, and your filter is to pick those who perform.  Discretionary winning/losing seems to be a fairly stable trait over a longer time frame.  It's definitely changeable, but stable.  It's a trait with inertia.
> 
> So it's sort of mechanical in a way.




But keep in mind that there are very few outright directional traders, maybe 1% from what I've learned from the various shops.


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## Gringotts Bank (1 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> But keep in mind that there are very few outright directional traders, maybe 1% from what I've learned from the various shops.




How do they trade?


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## skc (1 June 2016)

Yanoshi51 said:


> Hello! Basically I'm a 19 year old who is majoring in Finance (graduating at end of 2017). I have been learning about trading since I was 16, and started swing trading with real money at age 18. I started Day trading 6 months ago and have stuck to that as it is more consistent and profitable than what I was doing before. I am purely a a technical swing trader and use a systematic strategy for day trading. Because I have Uni in the day time, I trade US markets at night.
> 
> I want to know what options are there for me to work as a prop trader? I don't know where to start. Could someone help me with this? What are the prop trading firms in Australia that I can apply to? citibank, Ubs, goldman sachs??..
> Also feel free to ask me questions about my trading!
> ...




There's nothing wrong with applying to the investment banks, especially if you have the grades and the desire to work 100 hours a week. They often have graduate programs with rotations across different divisions. Trading would be one of them. You may not be doing proprietary trading straight off the bat, but you'd learn a great deal about markets whilst being paid.... as opposed to being a newbie prop shop trader who takes 1-2 years to become consistently profitable.


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## CanOz (1 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> How do they trade?




They spread, mostly short term interest rate futures....but also energy or indices. Some shops just want 'bums on seats' clicking away to get the rebates.


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## Gringotts Bank (1 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> They spread, mostly short term interest rate futures....but also energy or indices. Some shops just want 'bums on seats' clicking away to get the rebates.




Why the preference for spreads?  nvm... Google.


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## CanOz (2 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Why the preference for spreads?  nvm... Google.




You might not find an answer in Google so I'll try....I reckon they trade spreads because they have an almost riskless edge there. There are so many synthetic instruments that there are almost guaranteed gains available. Legging risk is now being overcome by algoes, so they do still have some event risk, but basically it's statistical arbitrage strategies that are making the big bucks. Many people don't know this, but one of the world's largest bond traders is an Aussie, based in Singapore virtually owning the 2 and 10 year Aussie bonds.


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## kid hustlr (2 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> You might not find an answer in Google so I'll try....I reckon they trade spreads because they have an almost riskless edge there. There are so many synthetic instruments that there are almost guaranteed gains available. Legging risk is now being overcome by algoes, so they do still have some event risk, but basically it's statistical arbitrage strategies that are making the big bucks. Many people don't know this, but one of the world's largest bond traders is an Aussie, based in Singapore virtually owning the *3* and 10 year Aussie bonds.




^^^


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## Gringotts Bank (2 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> You might not find an answer in Google so I'll try....I reckon they trade spreads because they have an almost riskless edge there. There are so many synthetic instruments that there are almost guaranteed gains available. Legging risk is now being overcome by algoes, so they do still have some event risk, but basically it's statistical arbitrage strategies that are making the big bucks. Many people don't know this, but one of the world's largest bond traders is an Aussie, based in Singapore virtually owning the 2 and 10 year Aussie bonds.




'Almost guaranteed gains'...  What would stop me joining a prop firm and getting some of that action?  Is there a skill element?


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## CanOz (2 June 2016)

kid hustlr said:


> ^^^




Thanks... 

So the 3's are the 'bills'?

2's are the notes?


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## CanOz (2 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> 'Almost guaranteed gains'...  What would stop me joining a prop firm and getting some of that action?  Is there a skill element?




I think the biggest hurdle for entry is that 'contestants' or trainees need the financial ability to go without income for 12 months. Genesis will train you online for a few months then take you in at Sydney if you pass the first test. Then they'll make a few cuts again. Its much the same process that Darkhorse went through although i have heard better things about the Genesis training.


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## Gringotts Bank (2 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> I think the biggest hurdle for entry is that 'contestants' or trainees need the financial ability to go without income for 12 months. Genesis will train you online for a few months then take you in at Sydney if you pass the first test. Then they'll make a few cuts again. Its much the same process that Darkhorse went through although i have heard better things about the Genesis training.




Ok thanks.  Has to be full time then.

Now I'm wondering why such a simple method (seems simple) wouldn't be completely run by an algo.


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## CanOz (2 June 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Ok thanks.  Has to be full time then.
> 
> Now I'm wondering why such a simple method (seems simple) wouldn't be completely run by an algo.




Well that's the thing, there are some shops that are almost completely algo now. If you're think high frequency then no because they just don't have the liquidity in some contracts to support the kind of stuff that HFT typically does in equities. Also, some of the term structures they use, think more complex than a butterfly, are off the radar for big algo firms. Peraps if you do some research you might be able to answer some of your questions more effectively than i can, like a Google for STIR futures trading, even YT.


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## Gringotts Bank (2 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Well that's the thing, there are some shops that are almost completely algo now. If you're think high frequency then no because they just don't have the liquidity in some contracts to support the kind of stuff that HFT typically does in equities. Also, some of the term structures they use, think more complex than a butterfly, are off the radar for big algo firms. Peraps if you do some research you might be able to answer some of your questions more effectively than i can, like a Google for STIR futures trading, even YT.




Quicker to ask you.


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## OmegaTrader (14 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> They spread, mostly short term interest rate futures....but also energy or indices. Some shops just want 'bums on seats' clicking away to get the rebates.




Hi 


I was reading someones prop experiences in the UK

link: http://backtestwizard.com/you-dont-really-want-to-work-at-a-prop-trading-firm/

Effectively he states that some props just want a rebate and so make their traders go into really low volatile spreads.

The traders make bugger all because their is minimal movement and spends all day watching the spread.

Is this what happens in some of the aussie props? Propex ? genesis ?

 I could understand it the incentives behind this.

Do aussie props get rebates from exchanges directly or indirectly through  brokers??


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## RowanC (15 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> I was reading someones prop experiences in the UK
> ...




Prop firms often get brokerage from trades. That's why they will encourage grads to trade spreads or turnover a high volume if they trade outrights. It's beneficial because if a new trader is a loser or even breakeven, the firm can still turn a profit. Plus it helps with covering the fixed costs/desk fees etc.

That said it is the belief of many firms that they have a higher probability of producing a profitable spread trader than they do an outright trader. Also spread traders can increase their size to a larger scale, which is another benefit.

I would say that even though firms encourage grads to turnover volume, given the fact that you are getting the best possible deal you can (certainly compared to a retail trader), it's not a bad thing as such. 

I think the Australian firms seem to care a whole lot more about producing profitable traders rather than just acting as brokers.


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## OmegaTrader (15 August 2016)

RowanC said:


> Prop firms often get brokerage from trades. That's why they will encourage grads to trade spreads or turnover a high volume if they trade outrights. It's beneficial because if a new trader is a loser or even breakeven, the firm can still turn a profit. Plus it helps with covering the fixed costs/desk fees etc.
> 
> That said it is the belief of many firms that they have a higher probability of producing a profitable spread trader than they do an outright trader. Also spread traders can increase their size to a larger scale, which is another benefit.
> 
> ...




I haven't done it but I would think it is good experience for the trainee/grad. They get free training and exposure in exchange for their time.

And if successful later down the track access to capital.

I suppose the downside in the back of my mind (in the cynical area), is if your are in a situation where either the capital is too small for too long or fees are too much relative to what you make. 

In which case you can  leave with knowledge. But you are back to square one if you want to be a trader.

Basically Genesis or Propex are the only discretionary ones mentioned as legit. Being a quants too hard for mere mortals.

So back to retail. Which without significant capital or mentoring your dead again.

I would like to go down the prop route.

Being the devil's advocate.

What other options are there to be trader? 

I know Trader is a broad term. You know what mean though



Cheers

Omega Trader


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## RowanC (15 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I haven't done it but I would think it is good experience for the trainee/grad. They get free training and exposure in exchange for their time.
> 
> And if successful later down the track access to capital.
> 
> ...




I really don't think there is a downside to having a go with either Propex or Genesis. At the very least you get a good trading education so to speak. You'll have a pretty good idea of where you are at after 3 months. That's not to say you'd be profitable by then however. I wouldn't take a job with these guys over anything like a banking/investment banking grad position though.

I don't think access to capital is an issue as if you're profitable that will increase. The desk fees early in your career are likely the biggest hurdle assuming you can live cheaply ie with your parents or something similar. However that's not even a factor until you go live.

There are also firms (or arcades) out there, more so overseas, that will give you access to cheap commissions and leverage (for stocks). So if you wanted to go it alone that is an option. But certainly do your research as there are some shady operators. But that's another way in.

But if you're keen on trading and I assume you are a uni student at the moment - then I think have a go. If you haven't already got a job lined up you have nothing to lose IMO.


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## mjim (15 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I haven't done it but I would think it is good experience for the trainee/grad. They get free training and exposure in exchange for their time.
> 
> And if successful later down the track access to capital.
> 
> ...



 Hello ,
Could you please elaborate on "Basically Genesis or Propex are the only discretionary ones mentioned as legit.
Do you mean other's (even with AFSL) are just "Education sellers" masquerading as Prop shops! based on business model of -  100 pay $300 fee for a "TEST" and hope 99 fail  and "Oh we only sell education like the big Univercities so don;t ask if we can trade or not!)


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## RowanC (15 August 2016)

mjim said:


> Hello ,
> Could you please elaborate on "Basically Genesis or Propex are the only discretionary ones mentioned as legit.
> Do you mean other's (even with AFSL) are just "Education sellers" masquerading as Prop shops! based on business model of -  100 pay $300 fee for a "TEST" and hope 99 fail  and "Oh we only sell education like the big Univercities so don;t ask if we can trade or not!)




I think these guys are just the most well known and established.

But as you say, if a "Prop Shop" ever makes you pay for "training", run for the hills as a general rule.


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## OmegaTrader (15 August 2016)

RowanC said:


> I really don't think there is a downside to having a go with either Propex or Genesis. At the very least you get a good trading education so to speak. You'll have a pretty good idea of where you are at after 3 months. That's not to say you'd be profitable by then however. I wouldn't take a job with these guys over anything like a banking/investment banking grad position though.
> 
> I don't think access to capital is an issue as if you're profitable that will increase. The desk fees early in your career are likely the biggest hurdle assuming you can live cheaply ie with your parents or something similar. However that's not even a factor until you go live.
> 
> ...






mjim said:


> Hello ,
> Could you please elaborate on "Basically Genesis or Propex are the only discretionary ones mentioned as legit.
> Do you mean other's (even with AFSL) are just "Education sellers" masquerading as Prop shops! based on business model of -  100 pay $300 fee for a "TEST" and hope 99 fail  and "Oh we only sell education like the big Univercities so don;t ask if we can trade or not!)






RowanC said:


> I think these guys are just the most well known and established.
> 
> But as you say, if a "Prop Shop" ever makes you pay for "training", run for the hills as a general rule.






Thanks everyone for your responses.

TLDR

*In summary *



* In my opinion* it is not legit to pay $,000's to learn how to trade and or not given a fair go. 

*Genesis and Propex seem legit because they offer free initial training 
*

*What are ballpark desk fees?*

*
In reference to Rowan C, *

Yeah I think getting free exposure is really really good. 

In terms of being retail trader the capital and experience needed vis a vis for a job is way too much for me.

As a curiosity what are ballpark desk fees be?

As I said I'm not a  genius or highly network individual or even mature yet 

so based on realities a prop seems like a good option.

I don't think realistically I could get into a quant or investment bank.

I can't even get work experience.




*
In reference to mjim,

*

I have come to the conclusion that university  is a rip off in terms on value especially in a digital age, increased education...

 but bare with me it sanctioned by society through HELP/HEX debt and parents like other conventions and is a good excuse as any to be lazy millennial and not work for a while. Unfortunately at 17 you don't think in this manner or about a concept called future. 

In terms of legit,

My reasoning or intentions if you like  is that If a prop is not visible through others/forums,online websites, career websites e.tc then its not a legit option for me.

If I don't know about it its not an option.

If it is a quant it's not an option (for me).

If it requires previous experience its not an option.

If it asks for thousands of dollars its not an option

 As Rowan C stated. I think a good heuristic rule is to not pay money upfront .

 Cowboys always ruin it for everyone.

I've already paid 30k for a degree with what questionable benefits as  mentioned.

I have searched a lot of websites, googled a lot 

been to meetup trading groups run by so called props, been to seminars,  e.t.c.

Basically these are(Poprex, Genesis) the two majors dscretionary ones with presence.

These are the questions I research/ask:

*
If you tell me who you work for,any costs, the details of your program and what you do, then I can comment otherwise its not legit and I will go for your throat as a cowboy *


*Tell me who are you lol*


I can rationalise * actual* prop's predicament, being lumped in with with the cowboys

 but remember  traders will get old and some will leave, so who will they employ then.......

 You need trainees.You need a future.

 charging money will scare everyone away. The consensus among my retail trading group that meets every week  is that 99% of the courses are BS or can be self taught.

It take balls to give free training and put yourself out there. It takes balls to deal with idiots. You have to give people a chance if your going to find future traders. You have to sort through the metaphorical sh**t.




 maybe you are a cowboy who just wants the cash with no risk....:rocketwho

hahah

maybe were all cowboys in our own way

looking after our own  social and capitalist self interests :rocketwho


Nevertheless

I don't know all of the props obviously but certainly it is very hard to find any others  in Australia apart  from genesis(was aliom) and Propex easily who wil give you a go.

I am not stating that all other props are not legit, what I am actually saying that it is not an option for an inexperienced trainee such as myself if I can't find adequate training, legitimacy/reputation or I have to pay $000's.

That is my situation and explanation.

I hope that clarifies what meant. 



In summary 

Sorry for rambling and.....




* In my opinion* it is not legit to pay $,000's to learn how to trade and or not given a fair go. 

*Genesis and Propex seem legit because they offer free initial training and have presence
*

*What are ballpark desk fees?*

Thanks

OmegaTrader


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## Triathlete (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses.
> 
> In summary
> 
> ...




You may be right, but what other options are available to retail traders if they cannot get into these two firms or do not make the cut because they are not up to their expectations...???

I would think...

1) Being Self taught

2) Having found a mentor that has been there done that and has time to teach you.

3) Or Pay an educator

 I took the 3rd option and happy with my results...


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## RowanC (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> *What are ballpark desk fees?*
> 
> Thanks
> 
> OmegaTrader




When you go live (trading with real money), there are fixed monthly costs that you have to cover. So they are different for every person as the software that you might need at the end of the day is up to the individual. However as a rule of thumb I would say that you should expect to pay something like $1000-$2000pm.

Often times the bulk of the expense is the cost of Xtrader or CQG as they are expensive.

However I don't think new traders should get too caught up with worrying about that too much. Focus on getting profitable.

At the end of the day a prop firm is not the element that will define your success or failure as a trader. IMO it is the ability to deal with the ups and downs of trading.

In reality all the education you need can be found online for virtually nothing.

A prop firm however does have the added benefit of being an environment that can help you succeed. You get to talk with other traders and see how they go about it and see the discipline that it might take. Where as if you are to go it alone you don't have that level of support.


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## OmegaTrader (16 August 2016)

Triathlete said:


> You may be right, but what other options are available to retail traders if they cannot get into these two firms or do not make the cut because they are not up to their expectations...???
> 
> I would think...
> 
> ...






RowanC said:


> When you go live (trading with real money), there are fixed monthly costs that you have to cover. So they are different for every person as the software that you might need at the end of the day is up to the individual. However as a rule of thumb I would say that you should expect to pay something like $1000-$2000pm.
> 
> Often times the bulk of the expense is the cost of Xtrader or CQG as they are expensive.
> 
> ...





*Triathlete*

I think that in my experience, this is a common economic problem in everyday life I can't remember the exact economic term.

But essentially for some goods and services such as doctors and lawyers, you can't test the quality beforehand so it's hard to make rational decisions unlike physical goods say a tomato where I can tell if it's fresh or rotten etc

education is like that, you can't really tell so its hard to make a rational decision

That is why I would prefer to not pay for education and in digital age information is a lot cheaper as RowanC stated virtually free apart from the opportunity cost and time it takes to learn.


*RowanC*

I totally agree with what you are saying and this ties in to what triathlete mentioned as mentoring. I totally agree that being profitable at the end of the day is the most important.

In terms of fees, that's alot.

$12,000 - $24,0000 a year.

There is no way a beginner could ever pay that off with limited capital unless he is a genius.

no way:

Say A beginner has 50,000 effective capital.

Then he needs to make (12/50 =.24 or 24/50 = .48)

between 24% and 48% a year

I don't think that is fair, especially since he be restrained in the strategies he can use and also is not working.

If the prop covers the desk fees through rebates and as part of the training then it would be ok.

But if you have to pay such high desk fees, its not economical for a trainee.

Otherwise you might as well just get the free training and leave. 

That sounds terrible though.....

What else can i do?

It's hard because part of me really wants to trade but the other part thinks its a pipe dream.




Investment bank NO out of my league

Quant  NO not smart enough


Retail No  not experienced enough, not enough capital

Prop Maybe

Hobby Definitely

So I have to get another job that I hate??

idk

At this rate I might as well be a passive diversified index investor my whole life






Cheers

Omega


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## skc (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> In terms of fees, that's alot.
> 
> $12,000 - $24,0000 a year.
> 
> ...




There are a few things not quite right with what you have said here...

- There's nothing "unfair" about prop shops charging desk fees. The costs are real.
- The shop doesn't usually "charge" the trainee cash desk fees. It gets subtracted from your P&L account. The shop expects this P&L account to be in the negative for some time for a new trainee... and pretty much wear that cost if the trainee doesn't make it.
- Forget the concept of "effective capital". It's not relevant. $25k a year over is $100 per day, or $12.5 an hour. To make that kind of money, size is of no concern. You just need skill. 



OmegaTrader said:


> It's hard because part of me really wants to trade but the other part thinks its a pipe dream.
> 
> Investment bank NO out of my league
> 
> ...




Welcome to reality! Except getting a job and then succeeding in Prop is probably a lot more difficult than you seem to think as well.


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## OmegaTrader (16 August 2016)

skc said:


> There are a few things not quite right with what you have said here...
> 
> - There's nothing "unfair" about prop shops charging desk fees. The costs are real.
> - The shop doesn't usually "charge" the trainee cash desk fees. It gets subtracted from your P&L account. The shop expects this P&L account to be in the negative for some time for a new trainee... and pretty much wear that cost if the trainee doesn't make it.
> ...





Thanks SKC

Sorry for the rant in advance

Yeah as I said

*If the prop covers the desk fees through rebates and as part of the training then it would be ok.*

Actually I think is really great if you can get it. Also to get mentoring is amazing.

However

(Sorry to disagree) 

But I think effective capital and opportunity cost are very powerful concepts.




In the beginning when you don't have a job and your opportunity cost is low or if your retired and  retail trading for a hobby or small amounts....

then working for free/ a low amount is inconsequential.

My effective opportunity cost is $0...


But if you have other options. Then it needs to be factored in to your decision making.



 A really good example is your statement 

*The shop doesn't usually "charge" the trainee cash desk fees. It gets subtracted from your P&L account. *


*That is the same as me paying for it.* 





I would have got that money. But I haven't due to fees. Now you could argue well you have to pay that anyway. But would you pay $24,000 in fees at those small volumes as a retail trader? idk? 

Assuming I'm profitable of course -losses are another matter. But those fees are part of their business, they don't lose $1000 for me to use their software they are already paying for it. It's already a cost they have.



Reality is funny. Everyone pushes you to go to Uni....

Then you can't get a job in finance and it’s your fault....

Get a job somewhere else....


So you all you can get a part time job with no future.


So why did I go to uni again???

Oh it's my fault that were increasing deficit and our economy is slowing.

oh I forgot

I didn't create the CDO's and GFC
I didn't let multinational pay low taxes.
I didn't create middle class welfare.
I didn't create the bureaucracy
I didn't create increased machination

I didn't force central banks to print money like lollies which is being channelled into inflated property markets.

Maybe I should just try harder.

One day I get a job that is vaguely in my study area. One day when I'm 35. Then I might get a loan for a house If I’m lucky.


:rocketwho

And then everyone wonders why millennials stay at home.

haha



cheers 

Omega


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## RowanC (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> *Triathlete*
> 
> In terms of fees, that's alot.
> 
> ...




Like skc mentioned I wouldn't get caught up in thinking about ROI at all. In reality it's not relevant for traders. I can trade 1 ES with $500 and at $12.5 a tick, you're ROI is virtually limitless.

Prop firms are generally fair to any trader who profitable.

When you go live you get a fair bit of room to move. They might let you trade 5 futures contracts with a $1000 max daily loss. Put together a good month or two and that increases. Again as skc mentioned they expect you to be in the red early in your career. It doesn't really matter in truth.

And as you get more profitable the terms of your contract get better too.


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## OmegaTrader (16 August 2016)

RowanC said:


> Like skc mentioned I wouldn't get caught up in thinking about ROI at all. In reality it's not relevant for traders. I can trade 1 ES with $500 and at $12.5 a tick, you're ROI is virtually limitless.
> 
> Prop firms are generally fair to any trader who profitable.
> 
> ...






Thanks for the info.

I going to try for the two props after bit of preparation and self learning. It's a great opportunity for a trainee if you can get it and I don't doubt the reputable ones are genuine. 


If I get it or it works out who knows.


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## RowanC (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I going to try for the two props after bit of preparation and self learning. It's a great opportunity for a trainee if you can get it and I don't doubt the reputable ones are genuine.
> 
> ...




Best of luck Omega.


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## OmegaTrader (16 August 2016)

RowanC said:


> Best of luck Omega.




Thanks I'll need it


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## skc (16 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Assuming I'm profitable of course -losses are another matter. But those fees are part of their business, they don't lose $1000 for me to use their software they are already paying for it. It's already a cost they have.




There are two main components of desk fees... one is software license costs which are cost per head (so the shop is not already paying for it). The other is fixed costs like office, IT, compliance, utilities etc. Sure the shop is paying for those whether you are a trainee or not... but using the same argument then no one should pay for these costs. Yet they have to be paid for somehow...



OmegaTrader said:


> So you all you can get a part time job with no future.
> 
> So why did I go to uni again???




Job is what you apply for. Future is what you make of it. 

I once spoke with an aspiring trader... who had a short sting with a Prop shop but didn't make the cut in the end. I told him that, if you want to be a trader badly enough then you will do what it takes for that to happen. It might be stacking shelves at Woolies at night while sleeping on your parents couch for a year... in order to save up enough capital to trade a few contracts. The private trader route is a perfectly legitimate way to make trading a career.

Are there opportunity costs? Of course. But so is everything in life. 

Anyway... I don't know your circumstances so take or leave what I say as


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## Klogg (17 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Reality is funny. Everyone pushes you to go to Uni....
> 
> Then you can't get a job in finance and it’s your fault....
> 
> ...




That's a very negative view. Just because you have a Uni degree, it doesn't guarantee you a job or a successful career, you need to work for that.

The University placement arrangements in Australia (and in fact, around the world) have many failures, but don't let that slow you down. You are where you are - you can either let it bog you down (along with 95% of others), or you can find a way to progress from here. 

For you to post here and seek advice, you clearly care more than most. Don't let a potentially crappy system get in your way.


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## mjim (17 August 2016)

Triathlete said:


> You may be right, but what other options are available to retail traders if they cannot get into these two firms or do not make the cut because they are not up to their expectations...???
> 
> I would think...
> 
> ...




Re: Option 3> So to keep it simple for everybody.. Some of us are in the category who can't get in to these Legit and Reputable Firms ( 2 mentioned in Australia) and we are smart enough to learn and pay for a reasonable fee butalso smart enough to  smell a snake oil salesperson from miles away selling education or masquerading as prop.. HOW DO WE FIND no BS "Educator"


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## Triathlete (17 August 2016)

mjim said:


> Re: Option 3> So to keep it simple for everybody.. Some of us are in the category who can't get in to these Legit and Reputable Firms ( 2 mentioned in Australia) and we are smart enough to learn and pay for a reasonable fee butalso smart enough to  smell a snake oil salesperson from miles away selling education or masquerading as prop.. HOW DO WE FIND no BS "Educator"




I can only speak for myself and the educator I went through.

The website address is in my blog post.....


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## Klogg (17 August 2016)

Triathlete said:


> I can only speak for myself and the educator I went through.
> 
> The website address is in my blog post.....




I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
(they have it on their front page)


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## OmegaTrader (17 August 2016)

Klogg said:


> That's a very negative view. Just because you have a Uni degree, it doesn't guarantee you a job or a successful career, you need to work for that.
> 
> The University placement arrangements in Australia (and in fact, around the world) have many failures, but don't let that slow you down. You are where you are - you can either let it bog you down (along with 95% of others), or you can find a way to progress from here.
> 
> For you to post here and seek advice, you clearly care more than most. Don't let a potentially crappy system get in your way.






mjim said:


> Re: Option 3> So to keep it simple for everybody.. Some of us are in the category who can't get in to these Legit and Reputable Firms ( 2 mentioned in Australia) and we are smart enough to learn and pay for a reasonable fee butalso smart enough to  smell a snake oil salesperson from miles away selling education or masquerading as prop.. HOW DO WE FIND no BS "Educator"






Triathlete said:


> I can only speak for myself and the educator I went through.
> 
> The website address is in my blog post.....






skc said:


> There are two main components of desk fees... one is software license costs which are cost per head (so the shop is not already paying for it). The other is fixed costs like office, IT, compliance, utilities etc. Sure the shop is paying for those whether you are a trainee or not... but using the same argument then no one should pay for these costs. Yet they have to be paid for somehow...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Klogg said:


> I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
> (they have it on their front page)







1) It is not a potentially crappy system. It is crap. ClichÃ©s do not change reality left for our generation.

We are at 1.5% interest rates and we are considered one of the best countries in the world. We are on adrenaline ... printing the paper money lollies won't work anymore soon.

2) Of course you have to start down the bottom. But if no one gives you a chance....
    So why do you go to university then? Almost all young people I know are in this situation.Lucky I didn't study engineering.

3) I AM NEVER PAYING FOR *EXPENSIVE* EDUCATION/TRAINING. Maybe if it was reasonable even then probably not.

4) In regards to prop fees, $24,000 a year is still BS. 
Next time you are in Coles you can pay for the fridges when you grab some milk and the lights in the shopping centre too and tip the checkout chick while you are at it. Sunk costs, fixed costs????



That's it

I go for prop or... 



die trying as a retail trader

I still have 40-50 years left  to die if all goes well 



Cheers

Omega


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## Klogg (17 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) It is not a potentially crappy system. It is crap. ClichÃ©s do not change reality left for our generation.
> 
> We are at 1.5% interest rates and we are considered one of the best countries in the world. We are on adrenaline ... printing the paper money lollies won't work anymore soon.



Yes, that's the macro view of the world. It doesn't stop you from finding a niche, an inefficiency somewhere that allows you to make good coin.




OmegaTrader said:


> 2) Of course you have to start down the bottom. But if no one gives you a chance....
> So why do you go to university then? Almost all young people I know are in this situation.Lucky I didn't study engineering.



I completed a university degree - Bacherlors of Information Technology at Swinburne. The course was offered with a scholarship which virtually paid my fees, so I came out without a HECS debt. 
In hindsight, I could have learnt what they taught me much faster on my own, but it gave me a chance at generating an income (initially). My career path has changed massively since.

To answer your question - I attended university for this purpose, for a chance to get a job. Nothing is guaranteed, and studying for a set of assessments and exams won't make it so.



OmegaTrader said:


> 3) I AM NEVER PAYING FOR *EXPENSIVE* EDUCATION/TRAINING. Maybe if it was reasonable even then probably not.



Depends what you define as reasonable and what the results of that education will be. But fair enough, each to their own.



OmegaTrader said:


> 4) In regards to prop fees, $24,000 a year is still BS.
> Next time you are in Coles you can pay for the fridges when you grab some milk and the lights in the shopping centre too and tip the checkout chick while you are at it. Sunk costs, fixed costs????



I do pay for each of those. I buy things from Coles, they use that to pay the rent, fridges, electricity, wages, etc.
Except the tip of course.

I'm not familiar with prop shop fees, so I can't comment here. The structure would clearly favor the prop shop, as they have the advantage when making this deal. But you go in, do the hard yards (even if that means a 2nd job to pay those fees) for a chance to move up in that particular industry.

Not saying it's the best deal, it may be really bad... but it's a matter of weighing it up against the costs of other opportunities.


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## OmegaTrader (17 August 2016)

Klogg said:


> Yes, that's the macro view of the world. It doesn't stop you from finding a niche, an inefficiency somewhere that allows you to make good coin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Time will tell if its worth it or trading works out.


At the prop I give them rebates+ commissions + my time and profits if I'm lucky 

They give me training+time and gain the asymmetry of successful candidates.

They don't need a nice tip as well...

If I get into a prop I will gain the education/exposure which is terrific

If the situation is good then I will go 120%


and if the deal/situation is BS

I will metaphorically :axt::horse:c::fu::badsmile::007:

or I could just not make the cut or fail anyway lol


Its not just a macro view, it a view of the generations legacy before me.



thanks


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## CanOz (17 August 2016)

Good luck omega. If you live in Sydney and can get by without a salary for 6 months to a year then a try out at a prop shop is a no-brainer in my view. Always weigh up the risks and go with low risk. Noticed I did not say "no risk".

I might have missed something but have you actually applied at any properties shops yet?


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## OmegaTrader (17 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> Good luck omega. If you live in Sydney and can get by without a salary for 6 months to a year then a try out at a prop shop is a no-brainer in my view. Always weigh up the risks and go with low risk. Noticed I did not say "no risk".
> 
> I might have missed something but have you actually applied at any properties shops yet?




I have to move to Sydney middle/end of next year. ... plenty of savings from living at home there is no issue there.

 In the meantime I will do everything I can to get an edge over the rest of the applicants before I apply.


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## Triathlete (21 August 2016)

Klogg said:


> I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
> (they have it on their front page)




Maybe you should open up the whole article and read the part that says *" Now to be real, you cannot learn to be a full time trader earning bucket loads of cash in a day. But you can learn enough to get you trading profitably and more importantly, safely from day one."*.

I still think for newbies this *Mentor Course *is a good way to start and to see if trading is for them and if they want to continue into the more advanced courses if they are having success with what is being taught.

This  mentor course option was not available when I started so I had to do the main course.

Anyway people can make up their own minds as to what suits them.

Cheers
Triathlete


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## OmegaTrader (21 August 2016)

Triathlete said:


> Maybe you should open up the whole article and read the part that says *" Now to be real, you cannot learn to be a full time trader earning bucket loads of cash in a day. But you can learn enough to get you trading profitably and more importantly, safely from day one."*.
> 
> I still think for newbies this *Mentor Course *is a good way to start and to see if trading is for them and if they want to continue into the more advanced courses if they are having success with what is being taught.
> 
> ...




I understand what your saying but I won't do that.


It is $997 ~ $1000 for a course with 10 videos+resources+support.

*If* the course helps you save time and losses then it is worth it and vice versa of course



I will try to get into prop first.

If that fails then back to square one.

If it worked for then that is really good but that's not my path for now at least


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## Triathlete (21 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I understand what your saying but I won't do that.
> 
> 
> It is $997 ~ $1000 for a course with 10 videos+resources+support.
> ...




I hope it works out for you Omegatrader and you get into prop and you learn what you need to and can make the grade, you are young enough....Unfortunately this was not an option for me.

Most people do not like to take this path because the courses are costly so they prefer to try and make it on their own by reading books, and using the internet for information. I have read about people also trading their accounts and blowing up a number of accounts before they make it. 

So I just think that rather than blowing up accounts and losing money I rather use it for some education first. 

It was a risk for me as well at first because I was not sure whether the courses were of any use, thankfully everything turned out well.

 These courses are not as costly as watching your portfolio losing value during events such as the '87 crash or the GFC because you do not have the knowledge of what to do and then having to wait years for them to recover.

This is fine if you have 20-30 years but not if you aim to retire. I knew many people which this happened too after the GFC.

As has been said to me before.....  * " A fool does in the end what a wise person does at the start."*


All the best Omega and keep the forum updated on how you get on with Prop.....

Cheers
Triathlete


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## CanOz (21 August 2016)

If ya Can't get into prop omega trader, give me a shout. I'll at least be able to get you set up on a sim account, give you ideas about context, show you what to look for trading the Dax. The rest is up to you.


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## cynic (21 August 2016)

Klogg said:


> I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
> (they have it on their front page)




I think the company triathlete is referring to is "Wealth Within" (or closely associated).

If so, it might be worth bearing in mind that they were fined by ASIC for misleading advertising.


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## Triathlete (22 August 2016)

cynic said:


> I think the company triathlete is referring to is "Wealth Within" (or closely associated).
> 
> If so, it might be worth bearing in mind that they were fined by ASIC for misleading advertising.




That is correct cynic and some of the more experienced members of this forum had brought this to my attention a number of years ago when I also knew nothing about this.

What I found in my investigation was that it had nothing to do with what was being taught but rather about their IMA's  (individual managed accounts).

What ASIC found misleading was that they had advertised that their managed accounts were said to be earning say 15% over a set period of time,however this could not be verified as every persons account would be different as they would have different stocks in their individually managed accounts.

So some may have been  earning 15% ,some maybe 10% and others maybe 5% and other maybe 20% so this is why they were fined and they no longer advertise this.

Again though everyone should do their due diligence.

Cheers
Triathlete


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## minwa (22 August 2016)

From the news article I read it was also that they advertised their compounded return average over 8 years which is of course higher instead of actual the average individual pa returns for each year.

For a 3 year return of 5%, 10%, 15% should be 10% average return pa but instead they conpounded it first then averaged it to 10.95% pa without stating their calculation i. advertisement. Would be magnified a fair bit over 8 years.

Still, they had a return to show so that's something at least.


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## OmegaTrader (23 August 2016)

Triathlete said:


> I hope it works out for you Omegatrader and you get into prop and you learn what you need to and can make the grade, you are young enough....Unfortunately this was not an option for me.
> 
> Most people do not like to take this path because the courses are costly so they prefer to try and make it on their own by reading books, and using the internet for information. I have read about people also trading their accounts and blowing up a number of accounts before they make it.
> 
> ...






CanOz said:


> If ya Can't get into prop omega trader, give me a shout. I'll at least be able to get you set up on a sim account, give you ideas about context, show you what to look for trading the Dax. The rest is up to you.






Thanks for your opinion triathlete.
Its good to have another perspective.

And thanks Canoz I still have till the mid/end of next year. 
In the meantime practice + the forums are going to get pummelled with interest rate derivative spread trading questions

   :rocketwho

lol


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## TRS_1 (14 March 2021)

CanOz said:


> You might not find an answer in Google so I'll try....I reckon they trade spreads because they have an almost riskless edge there. There are so many synthetic instruments that there are almost guaranteed gains available. Legging risk is now being overcome by algoes, so they do still have some event risk, but basically it's statistical arbitrage strategies that are making the big bucks. Many people don't know this, but one of the world's largest bond traders is an Aussie, based in Singapore virtually owning the 2 and 10 year Aussie bonds.



Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit further on this? Who is this trader? Does the trader work for one of the big banks/HFs/prop shops? Might be a bit out dated now though...


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