# Discretionary trading attitude



## Gringotts Bank

I'm going back to do something I did a few years back which proved very useful in terms of getting the right attitude for discretionary trading.  I'm in cash as far as my stock trading goes, and my system holds no positions at the moment.  I'm practising my "trading" using my Betfair account.  There's lots of advantages for this:

-- I can reduce my position sizing right down to a very small size.  I can't do that with stocks because the brokerage gets too high as a percentage.  
-- Betfair has heaps of games playing all day/night.  
-- I don't need to resort to paper trading stocks.  I always found paper trading useless because you have no consequences of your choices.  No skin in the game.

I choose a market that I know _nothing _about, say NHL.  
I decide that this whole exercise is going to cost me $x. The amount chosen has to be within my psychological tolerance for loss - let's say it's $300.  In other words, the amount lost has to cause no reaction when I think about it.  My last discretionary trade cost me ten times that, and this is for education purposes.  *Then I commit completely to the loss.*  It's gone, the whole $300, and I'll never, ever see it again.  The pay off (hopefully) will be that I get to see the stock market more accurately when I go back to it.  (It worked last time).

I divide the $300 up into say 10x$30 bets.  I commit totally to losing not just the $30 but every single bet I make.  I also commit to being wrong, messing it up entirely.  If the thought of getting it all wrong and losing $300 makes me feel bad, then I'm not ready to bet.  I either need to reduce the bet size or the total gamble size, or I need to understand what it is I'm afraid of, then work on accepting that.  When I feel ok about the loss and about being wrong, I'm ready to bet.    

Next I very briefly read a few game previews from some NHL forums.  I get a feel for the markets, but I don't apply any logic, _because I can't_ since I know nothing about NHL.  This is essential - no logic.  But forums will give you a *feel *for markets, and it's that feel that I want to pick up on, and bet on.  I read between the lines for *tone and sentiment,* not predicted result.  

Then I place my bets and wave bye-bye to my money.  I don't watch the live scores because ...why would I?  The money is gone and I've lost.  I check in the next day.

If you're after a cheap way of improving your discretionary trading, I recommend this.  The whole idea behind it is this:  you can't see markets as they are when you're trying to protect yourself from loss.


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## waza1960

Why not just open a nano fx account = 1c /pip surely you can achieve the same thing and at least its closer to trading than sports betting IMO.


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## Gringotts Bank

waza1960 said:


> Why not just open a nano fx account = 1c /pip surely you can achieve the same thing and at least its closer to trading than sports betting IMO.




Good idea.

My only concern is that i would be applying knowledge to the market, and I want to get away from that.  I want to base my decision on sentiment alone, because I think that's what the top discretionary traders are doing.


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## burglar

Gringotts Bank said:


> ... *Then I commit completely to the loss.*  ...




+1 GB


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## peter2

Wow, I have never read a post with so many psychological issues as this one. Nothing personal GB as I think most people reading this have the same issues. 

I think your approach is wrong. You can't use gambling to learn the mindset required to trade profitably. The real skill to trading well is developing the right mindset and getting it into our subconscious mind (internalize it). The best book for help in understanding what's in the right mindset is Mark Douglas, "Trading in the Zone". You would be better off studying this than gambling. 

Why choose something you know nothing about to gamble on? It gives you an easy excuse. "I lost because I don't know anything about the market". It's a cop out. 

Discretionary trading when practiced properly is not gambling. I know that 90% of people who say they are disc. traders are really gambling. No plan, no process, no profits and I have no sympathy for them. 

The big psychological issue I see in your post is the inability to fully accept the risk of your trades. The two major risks in every trade is the loss of money and the risk of our analysis being proven wrong. You can minimise the effect of losing money by reducing the your trade size but you can't reduce the risk of being wrong. Not accepting that we can be wrong is my biggest issue and I know many others have this problem as well. If you can't trade properly (without mistakes) when the monetary loss is of no concern then your real problem is this psychological loss. 

Find a market that you know well, have a written plan for every step in the process (perfect setup, entry, reducing risk, eliminating risk, protecting profits, final exit, records, review, improve). Do Mark Douglas's exercise (~p180) until you can complete a batch (20T) of trades without any mistakes. 

Perfect practice is my suggestion.


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## Gringotts Bank

peter2 said:


> Wow, I have never read a post with so many psychological issues as this one. Nothing personal GB as I think most people reading this have the same issues.
> 
> I think your approach is wrong. You can't use gambling to learn the mindset required to trade profitably. The real skill to trading well is developing the right mindset and getting it into our subconscious mind (internalize it). The best book for help in understanding what's in the right mindset is Mark Douglas, "Trading in the Zone". You would be better off studying this than gambling.
> 
> Why choose something you know nothing about to gamble on? It gives you an easy excuse. "I lost because I don't know anything about the market". It's a cop out.
> 
> Discretionary trading when practiced properly is not gambling. I know that 90% of people who say they are disc. traders are really gambling. No plan, no process, no profits and I have no sympathy for them.
> 
> The big psychological issue I see in your post is the inability to fully accept the risk of your trades. The two major risks in every trade is the loss of money and the risk of our analysis being proven wrong. You can minimise the effect of losing money by reducing the your trade size but you can't reduce the risk of being wrong. Not accepting that we can be wrong is my biggest issue and I know many others have this problem as well. If you can't trade properly (without mistakes) when the monetary loss is of no concern then your real problem is this psychological loss.
> 
> Find a market that you know well, have a written plan for every step in the process (perfect setup, entry, reducing risk, eliminating risk, protecting profits, final exit, records, review, improve). Do Mark Douglas's exercise (~p180) until you can complete a batch (20T) of trades without any mistakes.
> 
> Perfect practice is my suggestion.




I've got his book sitting on my desk in front of me.  I was reading it over again last night, and that's what made me post this.

By accepting a possible loss and the possibility of being wrong, I accept the risk.  That's the whole thing - it's the same as what you're saying/.


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## burglar

peter2 said:


> Perfect practice is my suggestion.




Agree that what you practice in drills is what you do in emergencies!
But overcoming the terror of losing, is something some of us need to learn.

We are not all of us, Peter Perfect ... yet!! :


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## waza1960

> My only concern is that i would be applying knowledge to the market, and I want to get away from that. I want to base my decision on sentiment alone, because I think that's what the top discretionary traders are doing.




   IMO you should be applying knowledge to the market and logic as well hence the FX nano idea.
   I can assure you that professional disretionary traders regard knowledge of the markets as very important.
   So I think the basic premise of learning to accept your losses is valid butI think there is a better way of doing it 
   more in tune with proper trading.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm going back to do something I did a few years back which proved very useful in terms of getting the right attitude for discretionary trading.




Actually you would have to say it didn't by the fact that your are back where you were "a few years ago"!



Gringotts Bank said:


> My only concern is that i would be applying knowledge to the market, and I want to get away from that.




Thats a terribly desperate delaying tactic to not wanting to do your homework.



Gringotts Bank said:


> .  I want to base my decision on sentiment alone, because I think that's what the top discretionary traders are doing.




Like who? How do you know what "top" traders do?


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## Trembling Hand

waza1960 said:


> IMO you should be applying knowledge to the market and logic as well hence the FX nano idea.
> I can assure you that professional disretionary traders regard knowledge of the markets as very important.
> So I think the basic premise of learning to accept your losses is valid butI think there is a better way of doing it
> more in tune with proper trading.




Yes you can accept your loses with not much more than a twang of annoyance if you know its part of your well worn road map.

If you haven't a F'in clue as to whether or not your map leads you to riches or the poor house you spend all your time jumping off on side trips because you are literately lost in the woods. 





GB really??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pavilion103

I only trade a small account of around $15,000 at present ($200 risk per trade) but have never really been impacted by the psychology of it all. Maybe because I'm person who is generally very detached from the outcome. Tbh I lost $40,000 on my last investment property when I sold it and was quite philosophical about it all.

I would have thought with trading, being psychologically impacted by losing relates to not having confidence in your system because you are not confident that it has a positive expectancy/edge.
I would think the answer would be to develop a tried and tested system that you have confidence in and this will remove much of the uncertainty which will lead to better psychology. This includes all aspects such as entry setups, risk%, trade management, portfolio management etc.

When you have a system that you are confident in you won't have to second guess yourself or try to change your psychology. You will simply follow it with confidence.


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## waza1960

The other solution is to go down the systems/algo trading route.
  But I think you have been there and done that.
 At least psychology isn't as much of an issue.


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## peter2

B. You've overcome the terror of being seriously injured in a car accident. Haven't you? You overcame this fear by driving safely and within the rules and repeating this every time you decide to drive. You've driven too much that this fear is hardly recognised. Trading is no different. 

FX markets: The fx markets do provide a minimal cost market experience and can be a great learning medium. However it's my belief that they move quite differently than the ASX stock markets. Do you want to spend the time and effort to observe and learn this and will it help you in trading stock markets?

Another underlying problem within this thread is the failure to understand how to create a consistent and repeatable profitable edge and just as importantly how to maintain it in different market conditions.


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## Gringotts Bank

Guys I'm not discounting system development.  I'm trying to separate the two processes to see which one is more influential on the bottom line.

I know about system development, and my best one does make money over a 12 year period, and it stood up very well (in backtesting) to the 2008 crash.  But the speed of returns doesn't satisfy me.  That's why I'm looking elsewhere/.  I'm not very patient.  

I don't want to say the guys name but he is a successful futures trader and he told me that the best discretionary traders do better than the best mechanical traders.  So I thought I'd investigate.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't want to say the guys name but he is a successful futures trader and he told me that the best discretionary traders do better than the best mechanical traders.  So I thought I'd investigate.




I would agree, discretionary will kick a systems traders ar$e. But you couldn't be further away from travelling down that path with this little exercise.


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> I would agree, discretionary will kick a systems traders ar$e. But you couldn't be further away from travelling down that path with this little exercise.




I already know what you'd suggest to become a good discretionary trader.  You'd say: watch the depth for 5 hours a day for 10 years.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I already know what you'd suggest to become a good discretionary trader.  You'd say: watch the depth for 5 hours a day for 10 years.




Nonsense!


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Nonsense!




What can you suggest then?


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> What can you suggest then?




I'll get back to you. Bit busy trying to be a top trader at the mo.


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## Boggo

Trembling Hand said:


> If you haven't a F'in clue as to whether or not your map leads you to riches or the poor house you spend all your time jumping off on side trips because you are literately lost in the woods.




+1 



pavilion103 said:


> When you have a system that you are confident in you won't have to second guess yourself or try to change your psychology. You will simply follow it with confidence.




+1 



peter2 said:


> B. You've overcome the terror of being seriously injured in a car accident. Haven't you? You overcame this fear by driving safely and within the rules and repeating this every time you decide to drive. You've driven too much that this fear is hardly recognised. Trading is no different.




+1 

Those three posts say it all, excellent.


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## Gringotts Bank

Boggo said:


> Those three posts say it all, excellent.




They're good posts but they're not about how to get good at discretionary trading.  That's the theme of the thread.


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## pavilion103

Gringotts Bank said:


> They're good posts but they're not about how to get good at discretionary trading.  That's the theme of the thread.




From the OP it appeared that the theme of the thread is about the psychological aspects of discretionary trading rather than how to develop a good discretionary trading system? 

And the way you can get good psychologically is by having a good system to trade that gives you confidence to trading it.

What is it that you want to discuss exactly?


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## tech/a

(1) Keep your Capital working constantly---don't stay in trades going no where.
(2) Only take trades which are moving in your direction IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Move stops to B/E as quickly as possible.--Losing brokerage is no biggie 
(4) Be quick to sell losers be slow to sell winners ---BUT see 1
(5) Re invest profit.
(6) Compound quickly.
(7) Be decisive.
(8) Have a re entry plan.

Should get you started.
This all presumes you have a proven profitable trading method.


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## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> (1) Keep your Capital working constantly---don't stay in trades going no where.
> (2) Only take trades which are moving in your direction IMMEDIATELY.
> (3) Move stops to B/E as quickly as possible.--Losing brokerage is no biggie
> (4) Be quick to sell losers be slow to sell winners ---BUT see 1
> (5) Re invest profit.
> (6) Compound quickly.
> (7) Be decisive.
> (8) Have a re entry plan.
> 
> Should get you started.
> This all presumes you have a proven profitable trading method.




Thanks tech.  

Most (not all) of the replies suggest discretionary trading is not a good method.  You and a few others are saying it's possible so long as you are using a system as a base.  Since the most highly successful traders are purely discretionary, I want to know what it is they do.  Are they secretly applying a system, or are they watching the price/depth and using their highly developed gut feel.

My assumption is that they are watching the price and applying gut feel, and that's why I'm doing this exercise.  Having an accurate gut feel depends strongly on psychological factors, imo.


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## Gringotts Bank

pavilion103 said:


> From the OP it appeared that the theme of the thread is about the psychological aspects of discretionary trading rather than how to develop a good discretionary trading system?
> 
> And the way you can get good psychologically is by having a good system to trade that gives you confidence to trading it.
> 
> What is it that you want to discuss exactly?




ok, I made an assumption that purely discretionary trading has a psychological basis, when it's successful.  I want to focus on only those two aspects, not system development for the moment.

I undertstand what you're saying about psychology being a secondary thing when your system is good - makes sense.,  But I'm not investigating that as such.


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## peter2

Van Tharp states that we all trade our beliefs of the market. If you GB believe that discretionary trading is relying on intuition (gut feel) without any structure or processes then examine that belief and see if it is useful to you. How can you develop a skill that is undefined and unstructured? 

I believe that a discretionary trader starts with a structured approach with only minor discretionary elements, masters one strategy then adds another suited to different market conditions, masters each additional strategy and ends up with multiple strategies and able to trade all market conditions. Any intuition that develops is based on extensive experience in knowing which strategy to apply to the current market and be able to rapidly adapt to changing market conditions.  

This belief gives me a course of action to follow as I continue to learn.


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## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> Thanks tech.
> 
> Most (not all) of the replies suggest discretionary trading is not a good method.  You and a few others are saying it's possible so long as you are using a system as a base.  Since the most highly successful traders are purely discretionary, I want to know what it is they do.  Are they secretly applying a system, or are they watching the price/depth and using their highly developed gut feel.
> 
> My assumption is that they are watching the price and applying gut feel, and that's why I'm doing this exercise.  Having an accurate gut feel depends strongly on psychological factors, imo.




No I'm not saying that at all.
They WILL know that what they do gives them an edge.

All traders who want to turn 10 k into 1 million in a few years believe there are a secret few who can do this regularly.

Truth is if your LUCKY enough to place yourself in front of the opportunity train and it leaves with you on it and you have enough on it----you'll be one of those mysterious discretionary geniuses.


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## Trembling Hand

peter2 said:


> I believe that a discretionary trader starts with a structured approach with only minor discretionary elements, masters one strategy then adds another suited to different market conditions, masters each additional strategy and ends up with multiple strategies and able to trade all market conditions. *Any intuition that develops is based on extensive experience in knowing which strategy to apply to the current market and be able to rapidly adapt to changing market conditions.  *
> 
> This belief gives me a course of action to follow as I continue to learn.






Peter I'm with you 100%. I'd like to add the bit which is bolded is a higher level skill which will *never *develop if the foundations of your skills are lacking. You may from time to time get in sync with whats going on but its the ability to do it day in day out that comes from amassing and refining *many *SKILLS over many many hours. There is no mystery to it just far far more hard work than 99.9% of the population is willing to do.


GB if you cannot align your thinking with what Pete has here its pointless me adding any more. We might as well go argue with the pope about no such thing as god.


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## Gringotts Bank

7 bets since yesterday.

Starting $407
Ending $450

Gain 10% ($43)

I'm basically following Douglas' technique. (Trading in the Zone).  Great book, by the way, if a little repetitive.


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## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> 7 bets since yesterday.
> 
> Starting $407
> Ending $450
> 
> Gain 10% ($43)
> 
> I'm basically following Douglas' technique. (Trading in the Zone).  Great book, by the way, if a little repetitive.




Why do you ask for help when advice is totally ignored?


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## CanOz

tech/a said:


> Why do you ask for help when advice is totally ignored?





I reckon GB just likes winding you guys up!

Otherwise, i can't figure it out either

CanOz


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## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> Why do you ask for help when advice is totally ignored?




It wasn't ignored.  I considered every word.  

I'm doing an experiment.  I want to find out if I am right or they are right.  Or both.  What Peter says makes perfect sense, but things can make perfect sense and still be wrong, so I need to test my hypothesis.

This is something that no one has done before - separating the psychological aspect from the technical aspect in order to find out which has more influence on the bottom line.


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> Why do you ask for help when advice is totally ignored?




Because to be an expert at anything one needs to engage in 1000s of hours of,

deliberative practise; Which is by its very nature very hard to do. Its monotonous, its painfully, it requires you to repeatedly step outside of your comfort zone. Basically its like sticking bamboo shoots up your finger nail beds.


Much easier to fool yourself with mystic and excuses..... join the 95%


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Because to be an expert at anything one needs to engage in 1000s of hours of,
> 
> deliberative practise; Which is by its very nature very hard to do. Its monotonous, its painfully, it requires you to repeatedly step outside of your comfort zone. Basically its like sticking bamboo shoots up your finger nail beds.
> 
> 
> Much easier to fool yourself with mystic and excuses..... join the 95%




Why don't we have a challenge?

Both of us post live stock trades, entry and exit prices.

You use your method and I'll use mine new method.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Why don't we have a challenge?
> 
> Both of us post live stock trades, entry and exit prices.
> 
> You use your method and I'll use mine new method.




Sure, but i don't trade stocks. Futs no probs.


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## tech/a

> This is something that no one has done before - separating the psychological aspect from the technical aspect in order to find out which has more influence on the bottom line.




What your the first?

The trading community waits with baited breath!
I smell a Nobel prize .


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Sure, but i don't trade stocks. Futs no probs.




You've never traded stocks?


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## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> Why don't we have a challenge?
> 
> Both of us post live stock trades, entry and exit prices.
> 
> You use your method and I'll use mine new method.




PAV and I have 26% in 8 weeks --- that help.


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## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> PAV and I have 26% in 8 weeks --- that help.




No, you have to post your trades live for everyone to see.  That way if I win, you and TH have to publicly admit defeat and eat humble pie for the first time in the history of ASF.  :  The upside for me is fantastic.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> You've never traded stocks?




My point is that I have expertise in something due to practise -futures trading.

Your point seems to be you can think you're a good trader therefore you are. Remember your comment about effecting the bid/ask spread with your confidence level. LOL.

My will be real trades. Yours will be BS.


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> My point is that I have expertise in something due to practise -futures trading.
> 
> Your point seems to be you can think you're a good trader therefore you are. Remember your comment about effecting the bid/ask spread with your confidence level. LOL.
> 
> My will be real trades. Yours will be BS.




So you will do it?  Great!  Let's come up with the rules.


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> So you will do it?  Great!  Let's come up with the rules.




I'll post trades tomorrow. At the end of the day I will be in profit with real money. At the end of the day you will still be dreaming of being able to make money; like you where when you turned up here years ago and like you will still be in years from now......... 

 :horse:


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## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> So you will do it?  Great!  Let's come up with the rules.




I reckon he'd beat ya hands down even if you were trading a Sim account on futures! lol!

But good on ya for feeling confident GB!

CanOz


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## prawn_86

I haven't posted in this thread before but i am willing to independently verify any results if live calls can't be made.


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> I'll post trades tomorrow. At the end of the day I will be in profit with real money. At the end of the day you will still be dreaming of being able to make money; like you where when you turned up here years ago and like you will still be in years from now.........
> 
> :horse:




What I want to know is if you have the guts to compete against me live in a public forum so that everyone can see the results.  

For me it's low risk, since I don't go around criticizing everyone else constantly.  For you it's high risk since you do criticize anyone who has a different approach to yourself, and you may lose your status completely and have to admit defeat....publicly.


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## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> I'll post trades tomorrow. At the end of the day I will be in profit with real money. At the end of the day you will still be dreaming of being able to make money; like you where when you turned up here years ago and like you will still be in years from now.........
> 
> :horse:




Fraid that's true GB 
You really should have a look at your Psychology.


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## CanOz

prawn_86 said:


> I haven't posted in this thread before but i am willing to independently verify any results if live calls can't be made.




I'll do better than that, I'll volunteer one of my IB accounts!

Edit...for TH...GB you can have my Sim account...


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## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> Fraid that's true GB
> You really should have a look at your Psychology.




I'm the only one on the forum who _*does *_objectively analyze this component of trading.

I assume you're in also?

Good, that's 3 of us.


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## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> What I want to know is if you have the guts to compete against me live in a public forum so that everyone can see the results.
> 
> For me it's low risk, since I don't go around criticizing everyone else constantly.  For you it's high risk since you do criticize anyone who has a different approach to yourself, and you may lose your status completely and have to admit defeat....publicly.




Pointless exercise.
The only way you could audit it would be through a brokers statement.

Cream rises to the top GB 
Cred comes from content not challenges


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> What I want to know is if you have the guts to compete against me live in a public forum so that everyone can see the results.
> 
> For me it's low risk, since I don't go around criticizing everyone else constantly.  For you it's high risk since you do criticize everyone who has a different approach to yourself, and you may lose your status completely and have to admit defeat....publicly.




How can whatever happen tomorrow have any bearing on the fact that I make money over the long run and that makes me what you are not, *a profitable trader.*


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## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm the only one on the forum who _*does *_objectively analyze this component of trading.




 thats a ripper.


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## Gringotts Bank

Hey where's the sleeping icon gone?

Ho hum.

:sleeping:


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## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> Hey where's the sleeping icon gone?
> 
> Ho hum.
> 
> :sleeping:




lol...you are such a sh** disturber...


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## CanOz

tech/a said:


> The only way you could audit it would be through a brokers statement.




These days its pretty easy, just a skype call and share your screen...


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## CanOz

GB, why not step up and take a shot at TopStepTrader? What have you got to lose? You want to be a trader, heres your chance...

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand

Well GB you nearly had your wet dreams come true. I was deeply in the red after the open. In desperate need for a bailout about as big as a Cypriote banker but alas it was not to be. In the green again. 

(Admittedly its a piddly $200 on 10 mil turn around! )

You got anything for us today?


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## CanOz

Trembling Hand said:


> Well GB you nearly had your wet dreams come true. I was deeply in the red after the open. In desperate need for a bailout about as big as a Cypriote banker but alas it was not to be. In the green again.
> 
> (*Admittedly its a piddly $200 on 10 mil turn around! *)
> 
> You got anything for us today?




That's like 80 contracts? 40 in and 40 out?

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand

CanOz said:


> That's like 80 contracts? 40 in and 40 out?
> 
> CanOz




Nah 80 in 80 out


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## CanOz

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah 80 in 80 out




Well...that's err, some ... ahem...pretty decent size ya got there!


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## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Well GB you nearly had your wet dreams come true. I was deeply in the red after the open. In desperate need for a bailout about as big as a Cypriote banker but alas it was not to be. In the green again.
> 
> (Admittedly its a piddly $200 on 10 mil turn around! )
> 
> You got anything for us today?




It's not that I am wanting you or tech to fail.  I put up the challenge to illustrate a point, and that is that the fear of public humiliation would cause you to falter in your judgments and thereby lose money during the challenge.  That would then prove my point about how psychology (fear in particular) can cause a distortion in perception and subsequently, poor trading results.  As you know, successful traders see the market how it _actually _is, free of such distortions.  When you first started trading large sums of money at the prop firm, you got the willys and your performance suffered in line with that, remember?


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## Trembling Hand

CanOz said:


> Well...that's err, some ... ahem...pretty decent size ya got there!




Nah just a few trades,





Gringotts Bank said:


> It's not that I am wanting you or tech to fail.  I put up the challenge to illustrate a point, and that is that the fear of public humiliation would cause you to falter in your judgments and thereby lose money during the challenge.  That would then prove my point about how psychology (fear in particular) can cause a distortion in perception and subsequently, poor trading results.  As you know, successful traders see the market how it _actually _is, free of such distortions.  When you first started trading large sums of money at the prop firm, you got the willys and your performance suffered in line with that, remember?




Oh god, that means nothing dude if you haven't the skills to trade. Which you have repeatedly shown by your own admission. Thats everyone else point including mine. Forget the phyco/mystic mumbo jumbo and do yourself a favour. LEARN HOW TO TRADE FIRST.

Worry about the last 5% when and if you ever get there.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah just a few trades,
> View attachment 51398
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, that means nothing dude if you haven't the skills to trade. Which you have repeatedly shown by your own admission. Thats everyone else point including mine. Forget the phyco/mystic mumbo jumbo and do yourself a favour. LEARN HOW TO TRADE FIRST.
> 
> Worry about the last 5% when and if you ever get there.




Do you know what caused the poor performance this morning?


----------



## white_goodman

If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here... 

http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage

also GB if you are particularly good they will portion you off some capital to manage.. (accounts have to be LIVE though, so this may hurt your chances GB)


----------



## Trembling Hand

white_goodman said:


> If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here...
> 
> http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage
> 
> also GB if you are particularly good they will portion you off some capital to manage.. (accounts have to be LIVE though, so this may hurt your chances GB)




I'm trading prop and GB will need $10,000 to open an account.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Do you know what caused the poor performance this morning?




Yeah trades that failed!!


----------



## prawn_86

white_goodman said:


> If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here...
> 
> http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage




Never heard of them, good idea though.

Something you are involved in WG?


----------



## skyQuake

> I put up the challenge to illustrate a point, and that is that the fear of public humiliation would cause you to falter in your judgments.




There is no fear if you've been trading a robust model with proven results.

What everyone is trying to say is that methodology is far far more important that psychology.


----------



## skc

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah just a few trades,
> View attachment 51398




Makes me feel much better about my day... down 3, up 5, flat and now up 3. If I plot my daily P&L in candle chart they have pretty long tails...


----------



## white_goodman

prawn_86 said:


> Never heard of them, good idea though.
> 
> Something you are involved in WG?




ive got an account on there, no stake in the mob that run it


----------



## Trembling Hand

skc said:


> Makes me feel much better about my day... down 3, up 5, flat and now up 3. If I plot my daily P&L in candle chart they have pretty long tails...




She is certainly moving intraday thats for sure. The HSI seems like a different beast last few weeks.


----------



## IFocus

skyQuake said:


> There is no fear if you've been trading a robust model with proven results.
> 
> What everyone is trying to say is that methodology is far far more important that psychology.




Agree SC to a point

You start with a robust model then sim it to death to gain the skill that feeds in building a robust psychology then you are ready to trade.

Even after this the market will beat you around the head 

Generally most rush of to trade making losses destroying their psychology using crap discussion making processes = fail.

IMHO


----------



## Gringotts Bank

IFocus said:


> Agree SC to a point
> 
> You start with a robust model then sim it to death to gain the skill that feeds in building a robust psychology then you are ready to trade.
> 
> Even after this the market will beat you around the head
> 
> Generally most rush of to trade making losses destroying their psychology using crap discussion making processes = fail.
> 
> IMHO




I agree with it too.  That's a solid way to trade.

I've said this quite a few times already - I'm talking about _discretionary _trading.  Some define discretionary trading as "mechanical trading that has been imprinted on the subconscious".  In this definition, you're not using the conscious mind to make decisions, but your gut feel triggered by the subconscious.  In this definition, discretionary trading is likened to learning a sport and "muscle memory" - ie. do it over and over until it's automatic.  In this type of definition, gut feel would be triggered by your accumulated memories of thousands of trades.  In this way, when a pennant appears and it's edging towards a breakout, and the volume is low and so on....the discretionary trader automatically references
all past instances of this and many other combinations.  Then comes the immediate response.  The discretionary trader isn't thinking consciously...like a footballer in the middle of a pack, there's no time for thinking...you just act.

*But this is not how I define discretionary trading. * I believe that trading from subconscious memory is disastrous, because unlike you (yes you, reading this!) I've tested this hypothesis.  I've had years and years of watching charts, and I can tell you that even 10 years of close watching will not get you remotely close to being a good discretionary trader if we are to use that old definition (above).

So I propose a new definition and I'm also testing it empirically.  Let me call it pure discretionary trading so as to separate it form the traditional definition.

*Pure discretionary trading* is trading which:

-- is free from the distortions of memory, even the memory of 10000 successful or unsuccessful  trades
-- it is free from such distortions because it makes absolutely no reference to the past; each chart is seen afresh
-- sees the price (or depth) as it is _in this moment_, not as you expect or want it to be
-- demands that you to get beyond your mind, since mind is solely concerned with gain and loss and will distort how you  interpret data.  This is the key requirement - shutting off mind.
-- is unconcerned with outcome

To do this properly requires a certain approach.  From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into.  However I just wanted to explain my position.  I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.

Trade the way you want to trade.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> To do this properly requires a certain approach.  From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into.  However I just wanted to explain my position.  I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.




LOL GB I guess if you cannot do it systematically and you cannot do it the discretionary way then all you get left is religion!!

By the way. How would you actually know what the true top traders do? The guys that take $100,000 a day, day in day. The ones that have only had 1 down month in 8 years!! How do you know what they do? How do you know what the guys that turn over 100 mil a day do? Ever seen any of them trade?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL GB I guess if you cannot do it systematically and you cannot do it the discretionary way then all you get left is religion!!
> 
> By the way. How would you actually know what the true top traders do? The guys that take $100,000 a day, day in day. The ones that have only had 1 down month in 8 years!! How do you know what they do? How do you know what the guys that turn over 100 mil a day do? Ever seen any of them trade?




You sound like your account is down again today.  

Actually I can do it with a system, but you never read my posts, do you?


----------



## tech/a

> *Pure discretionary trading is trading which:
> *
> -- is free from the distortions of memory, even the memory of 10000 successful or unsuccessful trades
> -- it is free from such distortions because it makes absolutely no reference to the past; each chart is seen afresh
> -- sees the price (or depth) as it is in this moment, not as you expect or want it to be
> -- demands that you to get beyond your mind, since mind is solely concerned with gain and loss and will distort how you interpret data. This is the key requirement - shutting off mind.
> -- is unconcerned with outcome
> 
> To do this properly requires a certain approach. From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into. However I just wanted to explain my position. I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.
> 
> Trade the way you want to trade.




So no opinion
No expectation of gain or loss.
I think you mean shutting off emotion.
Shutting off mind would be interesting I could make a profit while asleep at the screen---or anywhere really.

GG
If your evaluating data without reference to past outcomes---how is it that your evaluating?
If each chart is seen a fresh ---- and the mind has no opinion or expectation--whats the point of the chart?
So the now is now---how do you know which direction in which to trade it?

Your describing gut feel--Guessing.
If it was practical you would see it pedaled on Clairvoyant sites.

Hang on Your going to start a new methodology!!!
People will pay $1000s to get to be in your 1%
and those that don't---well they just haven't evolved-----


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> You sound like your account is down again today.



My market aint open yet buddy. Thought such a guru would know when Asian markets open.



Gringotts Bank said:


> Actually I can do it with a system, but you never read my posts, do you?




Everything I've seen from you lead to thinking that you cannot. Certainly you have never show 100 or more trades represented for any sort of evaluation.

But anyway before you go about trying to emulate the top guns how do you know what they do? Can you answer me that?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> My market aint open yet buddy. Thought such a guru would know when Asian markets open.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything I've seen from you lead to thinking that you cannot. Certainly you have never show 100 or more trades represented for any sort of evaluation.
> 
> But anyway before you go about trying to emulate the top guns how do you know what they do? Can you answer me that?




Just some interviews I've read.  Does it matter?  I have a hypothesis and I'm testing it.  Is that allowed, or do you have a rule against that?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just some interviews I've read.  Does it matter?  I have a hypothesis and I'm testing it.  Is that allowed, or do you have a rule against that?




Nah thats fine. Good luck. Look forward to the live test results.









When you do actually want to know and see how they trade when this side trip in the woods is over come ask me.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah thats fine. Good luck. Look forward to the live test results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you do actually want to know and see how they trade when this side trip in the woods is over come ask me.




I already have asked you, earlier in this thread. I am genuinely interested in the way you trade.  Your response was "what peter said".


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> So no opinion
> No expectation of gain or loss.
> I think you mean shutting off emotion.
> Shutting off mind would be interesting I could make a profit while asleep at the screen---or anywhere really.
> 
> GG
> If your evaluating data without reference to past outcomes---how is it that your evaluating?
> If each chart is seen a fresh ---- and the mind has no opinion or expectation--whats the point of the chart?
> So the now is now---how do you know which direction in which to trade it?
> 
> Your describing gut feel--Guessing.
> If it was practical you would see it pedaled on Clairvoyant sites.
> 
> Hang on Your going to start a new methodology!!!
> People will pay $1000s to get to be in your 1%
> and those that don't---well they just haven't evolved-----




You can shut off the mind and still be conscious and functional - that's what "being in the zone" means.

How is it that I'm evaluating?  There _is no _evaluation.  Evaluation is what the mind does and if the mind is switched off, then there can be no evaluation.  All that's left is spontaneous action.

There's no reference to _one's personal past history of trading_.  However one still looks at the stock's history.  The right move just appears on its own.  You don't think it out.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> You can shut off the mind and still be conscious and functional - that's what "being in the zone" means.
> 
> How is it that I'm evaluating?  There _is no _evaluation.  Evaluation is what the mind does and if the mind is switched off, then there can be no evaluation.  All that's left is spontaneous action.
> 
> There's no reference to _one's personal past history of trading_.  However one still looks at the stock's history.  The right move just appears on its own.  You don't think it out.




Oh.----I read about astral travelling once---interesting concept--personally I use a plane.
I doubt Douglas had that interpretation in mind.

Ill have to settle then with being in the top 5%
Ill never reach the 1% 
Good luck GG.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I already have asked you, earlier in this thread. I am genuinely interested in the way you trade.  Your response was "what peter said".




I wasn't talking about me. I'm somewhere at the right end of the scale but not in the Big big boys league. I'm talking dudes that have position sizes in the many hundreds of futs contracts, 40 to 50 mil at a bite. I know them, I've seen them trade. Aint got nothing to do with what I see you talking about here. 

I had a shot at trading Prop in 2006. Spent 3 weeks trading on the floor. What I learnt was 1 thing. Funny it is also what 4 other dudes that I have sent there also learnt - it's what every other  person has taken away from their time there. So in the end I didn't move to Sydney to take the gig. As I got the most valuable lesson there was. Have a guess what I'm talking about.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> Oh.----I read about astral travelling once---interesting concept--personally I use a plane.
> I doubt Douglas had that interpretation in mind.
> 
> Ill have to settle then with being in the top 5%
> Ill never reach the 1%
> Good luck GG.




It's exactly what he had in mind.

But you have never read the book, have you?

Also, you're too afraid to take up the challenge I set.  Considering this fact, I'm stunned you have the audacity to continue posting here.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Have a guess what I'm talking about.




I'm not into guessing games.  Tell me if you like...or if not, I'm not too fussed.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Also, you're too afraid to take up the challenge I set.  Considering this fact, I'm stunned you have the audacity to continue posting here.




I think Tech has years of on going trading results live. Something that is completely lacking from your mighty record.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> It's exactly what he had in mind.
> 
> But you have never read the book, have you?
> 
> Also, you're too afraid to take up the challenge I set.  Considering this fact, I'm stunned you have the audacity to continue posting here.





Yeh read the book back 15 yrs ago.
Sold it back to Trish Radges bookshop.

Ill stop posting on this thread as requested.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm not into guessing games.  Tell me if you like...or if not, I'm not too fussed.




See this,



peter2 said:


> I believe that a discretionary trader starts with a structured approach with only minor discretionary elements, *masters *one strategy then *adds another* suited to different market conditions, *masters each additional strategy* and ends up with multiple strategies and able to trade all market conditions. Any intuition that develops is based on *extensive experience* in knowing which strategy to apply to the current market and be able to rapidly adapt to changing market conditions.




Normal guys who have "waxed on and waxed off" 1000 times more than the other "normal" guys who look like this,




Have a read of this,

http://thetalentcode.com/book/


----------



## sinner

I've also read Mark Douglas Trading in the Zone (one of the few trading books I've read) and I don't really agree with the message you are taking away from it GB.

What you are describing sounds essentially like an irrational market participant.


----------



## CanOz

Study, Plan, Stalk, Strike...Review

This is what I'm trying to do with my intra-day trading, it's the continual practice and gradual application for me, that adds confidence.

CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand

sinner said:


> I've also read Mark Douglas Trading in the Zone (one of the few trading books I've read) and I don't really agree with the message you are taking away from it GB.
> 
> What you are describing sounds essentially like an irrational market participant.




I haven't read that one but I did read "The Disciplined Trader" by him. Thought it was utter crap and designed to feed the very myth in his first line of the blurb,



> Successful trading is 80% psychological and 20% methodological.




!!!. I didn't think it had much practical application. Just a bit of common-sense gumph that feeds on the punters fears.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Trembling Hand said:


> I haven't read that one but I did read "The Disciplined Trader" by him. Thought it was utter crap and designed to feed the very myth in his first line of the blurb,




Amen, I also got sweet fluff all from his book/s. 

Actually being through the prop shop pretty much makes you realise 99% of all trading books are complete BS, being around insanely good live traders does that though.


----------



## notting

I just bought an audio CD off eBay of Reminiscences of a Stock Operator.
He apparently shot himself!!
I hope not to follow him too closely.
I have read Trading in the Zone.
Also watched a Radge DVD - basic message - Beginners Cycle or Cumulative winner.  
Nice and sharp.


----------



## tech/a

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Amen, I also got sweet fluff all from his book/s.
> 
> Actually being through the prop shop pretty much makes you realize 99% of all trading books are complete BS, being around insanely good live traders does that though.




97% cant trade and have no idea where to start.
Books are directed at the 97%.
As I keep rattling on about very little to *NO PRACTICAL APPLICATION* wanna be's
try the latest "thing" and when it returns "ho hum" or "Oh Sh*T" they will buy the next
fad.
There then comes a time when Psychology gets a start as everything else has failed---so that just has to be it.

After all Psychologists are the best of all traders --aren't they?



> being around insanely good live traders does that though.



Shwagger wrote 2 books on that as well.


----------



## CanOz

Its real easy to say that books are useless but everyone needs to start somewhere. 

It starts with an interest and likely the successful traders have put the screen time, or even floor time for those old enough. They have had the tough mind set to stick with it, learn from their mistakes and not give up until they have a successful edge. By that time they're confidence has grown as well as their knowledge, intuition and gut feel for the markets.

You can certainly feel the confidence in the successful traders around here.

Most of these guys have dedicated their life to this, they've not just decided to give up their day job, it was their day job.

To get the Prop jobs having not traded before you need to prove you have the aptitude but also the drive, ambition and passion to become one of the best. 

The other thing to is if you don't have a competitive spirit, you can't win at this. You have to want to be the best at what your doing.

I should add that most of what i have said above has been learned from one or two here...

CanOz


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> 97% cant trade and have no idea where to start.
> Books are directed at the 97%.
> As I keep rattling on about very little to *NO PRACTICAL APPLICATION* wanna be's
> try the latest "thing" and when it returns "ho hum" or "Oh Sh*T" they will buy the next
> fad.
> There then comes a time when Psychology gets a start as everything else has failed---so that just has to be it.
> 
> After all Psychologists are the best of all traders --aren't they?
> 
> 
> Shwagger wrote 2 books on that as well.




Stunning.

You sh*t your feathers when I challenged you to a trade off.  Chicken.

TH also sh*t himself.

I feel the confidence too canoz...the lack of it.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

CanOz said:


> Its real easy to say that books are useless but everyone needs to start somewhere.




Yeah agreed obviously, has to start somewhere, but I'm referring to getting to that top level, isn't in a book somewhere.


----------



## prawn_86

Lets please keep this thread on topic and avoid it denegrating into a slanging match.

I beleive TH did accept any challenge, there was just no rules etc hashed out.


----------



## explod

CanOz said:


> Its real easy to say that books are useless but everyone needs to start somewhere.
> 
> I should add that most of what i have said above has been learned from one or two here...
> 
> CanOz




A good post and well put.

When I realised that all the advice I was paying for was mostly wrong, going to yeee haaar seminars etc., and after losing a lot of money, I hit the books to find out everything from the bottom up for myself.

With one exception, I attended one of Darryle Morely's (Daytrader, Herald Sun) weekend seminars on technical analysis some 6 years back and was one of the best $400 I ever spent.  Not pushing him, he is very expensive now but tech/a's way of looking at is very similar and if you stick to the rules and never fall in love with a stock you will come out on top.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> Stunning.
> 
> You sh*t your feathers when I challenged you to a trade off.  Chicken.
> 
> TH also sh*t himself.
> 
> I feel the confidence too canoz...the lack of it.




Lol...GB, c'mon, your just winding them up now. How could expect TH to take up your challenge when he's built he's whole career trading index futures? Why do you think are are so few really successful equity traders in Australia? 



CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> TH also sh*t himself.




I just checked the back of my pants. They had no crap on them but my wallet had more money in it than when you started this thread. :xmastree

Ya still haven't walked the walk with this idea yet. When do you reckon we will see some stats?


----------



## CanOz

prawn_86 said:


> Lets please keep this thread on topic and avoid it denigrating into a slanging match.




Too right, so many times these threads get started and allot of valuable gems come out. So keep the personal attacks out of it and we'll all learn something new.

CanOz


----------



## explod

Trembling Hand said:


> Ya still haven't walked the walk with this idea yet. When do you reckon we will see some stats?




Good one T/H, 

don't' worry about what tech is doing just give us some of your trades.  Even just post up two or three and we can all follow the action together.   Market seems to be going back up again so perhaps tomorrow would be a good time for you to start. 

G/B we could have your own special thread for it.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> Lol...GB, c'mon, your just winding them up now. How could expect TH to take up your challenge when he's built he's whole career trading index futures? Why do you think are are so few really successful equity traders in Australia?
> 
> 
> 
> CanOz




If I have a strength, I can read people very easily.  There was never even a slim chance that either TH or tech would accept the challenge.  The personal risk was far too high.  Pride would have taken a major blow if they had either 1). lost  or 2). lost money over the course of the challenge.  Personally, I couldn't care less about losing a challenge like that, so I had a small edge already. 

However, the reason for the challenge was not for me to win or lose, but to watch what happens when good traders like TH get put under pressure, and I'm pretty sure he would have crumbled.  Douglas describes 4 main fears, two of the main ones being losing money and being wrong.  I have a fear of losing a trade, but being wrong is of almost no concern to me.  The two musketeers might not fear losing a trade but they fear public humiliation of being wrong on a forum such as this.  So it would have been a close competition and very interesting, I think.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> If I have a strength, I can read people very easily.  There was never even a slim chance that either TH or tech would accept the challenge.  The personal risk was far too high.  Pride would have taken a major blow if they had either 1). lost  or 2). lost money over the course of the challenge.  Personally, I couldn't care less about losing a challenge like that, so I had a small edge already.
> 
> However, the reason for the challenge was not for me to win or lose, but to watch what happens when good traders like TH get put under pressure, and I'm pretty sure he would have crumbled.  Douglas describes 4 main fears, two of the main ones being losing money and being wrong.  I have a fear of losing a trade, but being wrong is of almost no concern to me.  The two musketeers might not fear losing a trade but they fear public humiliation of being wrong on a forum such as this.  So it would have been a close competition and very interesting, I think.




I don't think there has been anything on the thread that could possibly lead you to believe that. TH said no problem, with futures. Realistically GB You couldn't:

A.) Fund an account to cover enough margin 
B.) Afford to trade against him

Or

C.) hope to be profitable in time before retires 

I don't think (m)any on here could. Even without understanding your ability, wealth, or resolve. He has an advantage that you simply don't have. He's got access to the cheapest brokerage, tons of leverage, a direct connection to the exchange, and the benefit of 10,000 plus hours.

Oh, and the confidence to use all that.

CanOz


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> I don't think there has been anything on the thread that could possibly lead you to believe that. TH said no problem, with futures. Realistically GB You couldn't:
> 
> A.) Fund an account to cover enough margin
> B.) Afford to trade against him
> 
> Or
> 
> C.) hope to be profitable in time before retires
> 
> I don't think (m)any on here could. Even without understanding your ability, wealth, or resolve. He has an advantage that you simply don't have. He's got access to the cheapest brokerage, tons of leverage, a direct connection to the exchange, and the benefit of 10,000 plus hours.
> 
> Oh, and the confidence to use all that.
> 
> CanOz




Right on.  That's why I suggested a level playing field.  Aussie stocks.


----------



## prawn_86

Gringotts Bank said:


> Right on.  That's why I suggested a level playing field.  Aussie stocks.




I still dont quite get the challenge then if this is the case. Isn't that like asking a cricketer and a golfer to see who is best at soccer?  What's the point?


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> Right on.  That's why I suggested a level playing field.  Aussie stocks.




Oh come on, that would be like a cyclist taking up a challenge from a free diver...so far apart they're almost not related.

Why would anyone do that?

That's like asking Tech to agree to trade intra-day using the depth of market and no charts.

CanOz


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Right on.  That's why I suggested a level playing field.  Aussie stocks.




Its pretty clear you are delusional. *Why would I waste my time paper trading random stocks with random entries that I have no system for and no edge.* It would be a coin toss. I wouldn't lose credibility cause I don't claim that I can just "think up" results unlike you.

How would that have anything to do with my WHOLE argument? That its ALL about developed expertise.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Both futures and Aussie stocks have the same 3 variables, price volume and time.  Both have depth, both can be represented visually on a chart.  Just price, volume and time.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> Its pretty clear you are delusional. *Why would I waste my time paper trading random stocks with random entries that I have no system for and no edge.* It would be a coin toss. I wouldn't lose credibility cause I don't claim that I can just "think up" results unlike you.
> 
> How would that have anything to do with my WHOLE argument? That its ALL about developed expertise.




Now you need a system to trade from?  Oh ok, earlier today you were a discretionary trader.  Make up your mind.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> Both futures and Aussie stocks have the same 3 variables, price volume and time.  Both have depth, both can be represented visually on a chart.  Just price, volume and time.






Its clear you don't know anything applicable about trading, thats why you cannot make a cent. When you grow up and start trading with money come back and talk.


----------



## CanOz

:frown:Well GB, here's to the end of what could have been a great thread.

By for now everyone, my moderation skills have been exhausted.


CanOZ


----------



## Gringotts Bank

TH you said recently on another thread that you had eventually found a way to code what was a discretionary futures system.  You said that previously you didn't have the coding skills to test what you were doing.  That means you started with discretion and thought about system afterwards.  Nothing wrong with that, except now you're saying you won't accept my aussie stock challenge because because you haven't identified a systematic edge first.  Lots of excuses is what I'm seeing.

Man up.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Gringotts Bank said:


> TH you said recently on another thread that you had eventually found a way to code what was a discretionary futures system.  You said that previously you didn't have the coding skills to test what you were doing.  That means you started with discretion and thought about system afterwards.  Nothing wrong with that, except now you're saying you won't accept my aussie stock challenge because because you haven't identified a systematic edge first.  Lots of excuses is what I'm seeing.
> 
> Man up.




I will no longer be commenting GB. I don't know why I would waste so much time listening to a delussion joker who has never made any money. 

*
We have never seen a statement from you with 100 trades EVER. Its clear why.*


----------



## tech/a

> There was never even a slim chance that either TH or tech would accept the challenge.




For Christmas sake.

I traded Live for 6 yrs and its still there.

Ive been trading with PAV for 2.5 mths 
helping him turn from loss to profit. Private mail him
and see how hes going We've exchanged 87 emails so the trading
has been brisk--still going.---yeh hes in profit--well in profit.

Enjoy your journey---it will be a long one.
My last post on this topic as well.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Trembling Hand said:


> I will no longer be commenting GB. I don't know why I would waste so much time listening to a delussion joker who has never made any money.
> 
> *
> We have never seen a statement from you with 100 trades EVER. Its clear why.*




You waste time because deep down you're afraid I'm right.  That's why you can't let it go.  You're like a dog with a bone.  

You trade a system except that you don't...except sometimes after the fact when you've learned how to code your discretionary system into a mechanical one!  LOL  :


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> For Christmas sake.
> 
> I traded Live for 6 yrs and its still there.
> 
> Ive been trading with PAV for 2.5 mths
> helping him turn from loss to profit. Private mail him
> and see how hes going We've exchanged 87 emails so the trading
> has been brisk--still going.---yeh hes in profit--well in profit.
> 
> Enjoy your journey---it will be a long one.
> My last post on this topic as well.




You backed down.  I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize that, like TH.  You backed out of the challenge. All hot air and feathers.


----------



## CanOz

You're just being inflammatory now.GB, not to mention bloody childish.

Thread dead.


----------



## explod

Gringotts Bank said:


> You backed down.  I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize that, like TH.  You backed out of the challenge. All hot air and feathers.




tech has the points on the board, if you have not checked back on those threads that contain the evidence then you are the one of *hot air* and feathers.

In fact I cannot see a spot for you to hang your hat in one post today.  The unsubstantiated criticism from you ought to see you given some time out from ASF to think about it.

In my *very* humble opinion of course.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

ok ok, let's just examine the method of tech and TH.

They trash anything they don't understand.  They bully, they bulldoze and they are ****ing arrogant.  They do it on every thread.  On this one, they come in like union officials, bulldozing and trashing a book that neither of them have read.

So I think to myself, hmmm. here they go again...how about a challenge, and both of them run a mile, scared.  That's the definition of a bully....and a puss.y.

Now it would be different if their logic held up, but it doesn't.  It falls over at every turn.

Then canoz, the biased moderator comes in and closes it down.  Clear who his mates are.


----------



## sinner

The five stated goals of Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas



> 1. To prove to the trader that more or better market analysis is not the solution to his trading difficulties or
> lack of consistent results.
> 
> 2. To convince the trader that it's his attitude and "state of mind" that determine his results.
> 
> 3. To provide the trader with the specific beliefs and attitudes that are necessary to build a winner's
> mindset, *which means learning how to think in probabilities.*
> 
> 4. To address the many conflicts, contradictions, and paradoxes in thinking that cause the typical trader to
> assume that he already does think in probabilities, when he really doesn't.
> 
> 5. To take the trader through a process that integrates this thinking strategy into his mental system at a
> functional level.




It also points out, right at the start of the book, without an edge (which the book is not about), you cannot trade. The book is about teaching you to trust your edge. But you must actually have one. Otherwise you risk suffer from being one of the people who



> ...seems as if the consistency or ultimate success they desire is "at hand," or
> "within their grasp," just before it slips away or evaporates before their eyes, time and time again. The
> only thing about trading that is consistent with this group is emotional pain.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

sinner said:


> The five stated goals of Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas
> 
> 
> 
> It also points out, right at the start of the book, without an edge (which the book is not about), you cannot trade The book is about teaching you to trust your edge. But you must actually have one. Otherwise you risk suffer from being one of the people who




Correct.  I'm taking it one step further and separating out 'edge' from 'psychological factors'.  If a trader makes 100% using a sort of hybrid approach, how much of this is due to 'edge' and how much due to 'psychology'?  It's unknown - could be 80:20 or 20:80.  So I'm removing extraneous factors and looking at each factor independently.  I suspect that edge is not of great importance when discretionary trading.  Obviously in mechanical trading, edge is everything.


----------



## notting

notting said:


> I just bought an audio CD off eBay of Reminiscences of a Stock Operator.
> He apparently shot himself!!
> I hope not to follow him too closely.




Admittedly I bought for pure entertainment and curiosity after I heard a couple of broker types saying how good it was on Sky. I'm not into all the training stuff and books.

What a load of crap!! Glad I only paid $10. It was mildly entertaining.
The only message was "trust your own assessment and 'the tape' rather than others."
Don't bother.


----------



## sinner

Gringotts Bank said:


> Correct.  I'm taking it one step further and separating out 'edge' from 'psychological factors'.  If a trader makes 100% using a sort of hybrid approach, how much of this is due to 'edge' and how much due to 'psychology'?  It's unknown - could be 80:20 or 20:80.  So I'm removing extraneous factors and looking at each factor independently.  I suspect that edge is not of great importance when discretionary trading.  Obviously in mechanical trading, edge is everything.




OK to humour you, assume that the proportion is 80:20, so, do you have an edge to fill out that 20%? I assume you agree some edge is necessary to execute on. It sounds like you're proposing a 100% psychology approach, i.e. gambling.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

sinner said:


> OK to humour you, assume that the proportion is 80:20, so, do you have an edge to fill out that 20%? I assume you agree some edge is necessary to execute on. It sounds like you're proposing a 100% psychology approach, i.e. gambling.




I'm proposing investigating "100% psychology" and leaving edge out of it altogether.  Only then can we determine how much influence psychology has.  If it comes back 100% importance - great, my hypothesis has been validated.  If it comes back as 0% importance, then I will trade 100% mechanically.


----------



## sinner

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm proposing investigating "100% psychology" and leaving edge out of it altogether.  Only then can we determine how much influence psychology has.




I'll leave you to it then. My money is all on red!


----------



## notting

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm proposing investigating "100% psychology"




You can't test psychology unless you are in the trade for real.
Just start a thread and report what you do within 10 minutes of doing it.
That should add to the psychosocial test.


----------



## rnr

Hi GB,

Was the BHP trade you entered yesterday (March 20th) "Probably a low risk entry here, I'd posit." and exited today (March 21st) "I don't like it today. Just sold." an example of the type of discretionary trade to which you refer?

You didn't mention your stop-loss or entry price at all so perhaps you could step us through your thought process from entry to exit!


----------



## boofis

This thread was disastrously painful to read. Can we have a warning put in the title that nothing ever actually happens lol.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

rnr said:


> Hi GB,
> 
> Was the BHP trade you entered yesterday (March 20th) "Probably a low risk entry here, I'd posit." and exited today (March 21st) "I don't like it today. Just sold." an example of the type of discretionary trade to which you refer?
> 
> You didn't mention your stop-loss or entry price at all so perhaps you could step us through your thought process from entry to exit!




I'm trying out lots of different methods rnr.  Different methods, but they all have the theme of trading as "intuitive discretionary". 

I wasn't happy with the method I used for the BHP trade, because I only made a tiny profit.  So there's no point me going over my technique there.

My trade today is KCN.  The way I did it was to take a small inconsequential position and just sit with it.  I just wanted to see how it felt.  Then I imagined having a bigger position and how that might feel.  The feeling was right so I bought my usual size.  Having done that (ave:$4.09) it still feels ok and I'll hold over the weekend. 

I have lots of other methods to test.  The exit on this particular trade will be determined by gut feel, whether I be in profit or loss.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

*summary so far: * I am attempting to access the 'zone'.  By 'zone', I mean the ability to see the market (any market) in a purely objective way, that is to say, free of distortions created by past impression.  By past impression I mean conscious and unconscious memories, and how these can prevent objectivity through referencing my most recent trades, overall trading history, mood, general attitudes and beliefs.  In particular I am trying to not apply logic, nor pattern recognition, nor any traditional trading method.  I prepare the method, then look at the chart (about 1 year daily history) and I decide.  This approach is a test and does not discredit other methods of making money in the markets.  

*Method 1:*  completely accepting possibility of loss.  Betting history was good, trading (one stock only) was basically break even (tiny win). 

*Method 2:*  entering small positions gradually and re-assessing using gut feel after each lot. Aside from my betting, I used this approach to buy KCN, so I'm not holding any great hopes for that in the coming week.  The betting account didn't do well with this method.

*Method 3 *will look at mood and it's effects on decision making.  Method 2 made no attempt to control or watch mood, so that could have confounded the result there.  There is a way to control for that variable but I didn't think of that at the time - so I may go back and do that later depending on the outcome of this test.  Method 1 did have the effect of neutralizing mood and taking it out of the equation.  So this test will look at positive versus negative mood, as opposed to neutral mood.


Other things I have notice:
- in every case, difficulty in coming to a decision would result in a loss.
- hurried decision making can also frequently lead to losses.
- there seems to be an optimal 'pacing' with decision making, neither hurried nor delayed due to indecision.  This is not likely to be a primary factor, but a symptom.  In that sense it can be used as a check before clicking the buy button.


----------



## tech/a

> there seems to be an optimal 'pacing' with decision making,




If your working on Gut feel then there is no decision.
Or are you saying you are indecisive on acting upon gut feel.
You cant decide on what your gut feel is telling you?
Buy or sell or hold?
I cant understand what your deciding on?

I would assume the best thing to do would be to have 
NO CHART
NO NEWS
NO idea of what happened in news.
Just a company name really?
Gut feel??


----------



## Boggo

tech/a said:


> I cant understand what your deciding on?




Lost me ages ago 

Can you just do something and tell us what you are doing or have done so we may get some idea ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> If your working on Gut feel then there is no decision.
> Or are you saying you are indecisive on acting upon gut feel.
> You cant decide on what your gut feel is telling you?
> Buy or sell or hold?
> I cant understand what your deciding on?
> 
> I would assume the best thing to do would be to have
> NO CHART
> NO NEWS
> NO idea of what happened in news.
> Just a company name really?
> Gut feel??




There's still a decision made every time I act, it's just that gut feel decisions are not a conscious decision-making process, but rather subconscious.  In other words, there's no "figuring it out" or logic applied.  Gut feel decisions (method 2) weren't successful.  Decisions made this way presumably will access memory, so in a way Method 2 was a test to see if accumulated trading memory would be a problem...and it seems it was.

Earlier in the thread I used the word 'intuitively' in a different sense, so I'm going to try to stop using that term to avoid confusion.  Getting a water tight scientific methodology is extremely hard due to all the confounding factors, however I'm doing what I can to control variables.

In regards to stock trading, I do use information (the chart), and there is an important information processing component, but the mind will process the information differently according to the factors I'm investigating.  Have you ever looked at a chart on a Saturday and thought it looks good, only to review it on a Sunday and have second thoughts?  That's an example of how the mind can perceive the very same information differently.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> Have you ever looked at a chart on a Saturday and thought it looks good, only to review it on a Sunday and have second thoughts?  That's an example of how the mind can perceive the very same information differently.




No
Every chart I consider a potential trade I look at with the view of minimizing risk.
My process involves very clear cut decision making and forward planning.
Each trade I view as having a very clear chance of failure.
The information I look at will lead me to very clear trade proceedures.
From trigger to stop to trade management everyday I re evaluate daily in this market.

Unlike you I believe my gut feel can be as wrong as it's right.
Just like my conscious mind.


----------



## skc

Gringotts Bank said:


> *summary so far: * I am attempting to access the 'zone'.  By 'zone', I mean the ability to see the market (any market) in a purely objective way, that is to say, free of distortions created by past impression.  By past impression I mean conscious and unconscious memories, and how these can prevent objectivity through referencing my most recent trades, overall trading history, mood, general attitudes and beliefs.  In particular I am trying to not apply logic, nor pattern recognition, nor any traditional trading method.






Gringotts Bank said:


> I prepare the method, then look at the chart (about 1 year daily history) and I decide.  This approach is a test and does not discredit other methods of making money in the markets.




Isn't that just self contradictory? If you look at a chart you are letting unconscious memory affect you.

You can't trade BHP... surely you know what BHP is and has some unconscious notion on what the company does and/or how it share price behaved.

You need to move to a different market. Say take a 4 digit random number generator, see if this number coincide with a stock on the HKSE, then decide whether to buy or sell the moment you know that it is tradable.

Then report back your findings...


----------



## Gringotts Bank

skc said:


> Isn't that just self contradictory? If you look at a chart you are letting unconscious memory affect you.
> 
> You can't trade BHP... surely you know what BHP is and has some unconscious notion on what the company does and/or how it share price behaved.
> 
> You need to move to a different market. Say take a 4 digit random number generator, see if this number coincide with a stock on the HKSE, then decide whether to buy or sell the moment you know that it is tradable.
> 
> Then report back your findings...




There's two ways of looking, one is affected by memory, one isn't.  I could write an essay but knowing your perspective on things, I promise you you wouldn't like it.  It would just create arguments.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

tech/a said:


> No
> Every chart I consider a potential trade I look at with the view of minimizing risk.
> My process involves very clear cut decision making and forward planning.
> Each trade I view as having a very clear chance of failure.
> The information I look at will lead me to very clear trade proceedures.
> From trigger to stop to trade management everyday I re evaluate daily in this market.
> 
> Unlike you I believe my gut feel can be as wrong as it's right.
> Just like my conscious mind.




Two different styles.  

One style says "how I prepare myself will determine how I see the chart.  Then I act spontaneously".

The other style says "The market does what it does, I set my boundaries for risk and reward and let it play out.  I act logically".

By adopting the first method, I'm aiming to create a higher win rate.  Whilst I'm not setting R:R, so long as I am aware that winners must be allowed to run and losers must be cut short, then the R:R principle is still respected.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Sold KCN for brokerage.  Bought with method 2.  Sold with method 3.  Mood - 7/10.


----------



## skyQuake

How do you determine if something went 'right' ?

Is profit the only benchmark?

Thnx


----------



## Gringotts Bank

skyQuake said:


> How do you determine if something went 'right' ?
> 
> Is profit the only benchmark?
> 
> Thnx




The next few days will tell me if I was right.  I'm feeling like there might be a cheaper entry around $3.95.

But f you mean how do I tell before I click 'buy' or 'sell', I don't have an answer because I'm not thinking; I'm trying not to think.  In this method (3) I get my mood to as good a level as possible, look at the chart and go...or not.

Bought QAN $1.72


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> The next few days will tell me if I was right.  I'm feeling like there might be a cheaper entry around $3.95.
> 
> But f you mean how do I tell before I click 'buy' or 'sell', I don't have an answer because I'm not thinking; I'm trying not to think.  In this method (3) I get my mood to as good a level as possible, look at the chart and go...or not.
> 
> Bought QAN $1.72




Just a thought GB, but if your going to all this trouble why not just put the charts away, pull up the tape and the depth and see how you 'feel'.

CanOz


----------



## Gringotts Bank

CanOz said:


> Just a thought GB, but if your going to all this trouble why not just put the charts away, pull up the tape and the depth and see how you 'feel'.
> 
> CanOz




The advantage of that would be more immediate feedback, which according to CsÃ­kszentmihÃ¡lyi (Mr Flow) is a good thing:  He says "The task at hand must have clear and immediate feedback. This helps the person negotiate any changing demands and allows him or her to adjust his or her performance to maintain the flow state".

The disadvantage is that day trading has in the past created too much tension in me.  So....

Not sure.  Maybe I'd try it again.  Nothing is moving today.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 wikipedia:

Another important factor is the memory of events in decision making. The mood someone has works as “a retrieval cue” whereby happy feelings make positive materials come to mind which in turn have great impact on the decisions that are made. The same is true of negative feelings.  Bower coined the term state-dependent remembering for this phenomenon.  Bowen and others stated that emotions and feelings cannot be extracted from the human mind [_I'd add, unless mind is quietened to the point of being transcended_].  The emotions felt in a particular situation will be recorded in the emotional memory and can be activated when the person faces a similar situation or has to make a difficult decision in a short period of time. Often the decision maker is unaware of previous experiences in similar situations.

Also, in one study:  "Fearful people made pessimistic judgements of future events whereas angry people made optimistic judgements"

These excerpts tends to indicate that being in a reasonable mood (as in when I bought QAN), may not be ideal, since my decision making process will be coloured by my positive mood.  On the other hand, I have made 3 successful sports bets today and yesterday with similar mood level.

Positive mood on its own is not a flow state.


----------



## Boggo

Gringotts Bank said:


> ...
> 
> Bought QAN $1.72






CanOz said:


> ...
> pull up the tape *and the depth* and see how you 'feel'.
> 
> CanOz




Slightly off topic but two items relevant to depth, my way of thinking and my 

1. Aside from no positive indication I wouldn't have gone long on QAN based on the current depth, I tend to feel that you are swimming against the tide. I like to see a breakout with "support" in the bid side having an influence.
Support tends to gather at round numbers and for QAN 1.70 is an area of support which has already been tested today but for me I would like to see the bid volume increase too.

2. I have held SEH since mid Nov but bailed out today due to what looks like a reversal of depth compared to the last few weeks especially, support is starting to gather around the weekly support level of 15 however, possible re-entry level maybe but I will be watching the bid side volume too.

SEH and QAN depth with comparison of current depth vol accumulation at weekly chart support area 15c on SEH...


----------



## Gringotts Bank

boggo I made a point of only looking at 3 levels of depth, so that buyer:seller ratio wasn't part of my decision.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some other ideas that relate to each other:


--Heightened self-awareness (defined as identification with one's own senses amd thoughts) is correlated with low mood*.   

--The intensity of both positive and negative emotions might be increased in those with a stronger self-concept**  However happiness and flow state are qualitatively different.  I found that trading on subconscious emotions was less profitable, so maybe this can be extrapolated to mean:   less self-concept -> less emotional -> better trading.  *So rather than saying "don't trade on emotion", it would be better to advise on ways to reduce self-concept, since suppressed emotion tends to increase in intensity.*

--Self-awareness is reduced in moments of flow state (being 'in the zone').  No ref, I think that's fairly well established.

--As mentioned, happiness is not equal to flow state.  Flow state could be described as un-caused happiness, whereas normal happiness depends upon a specific outcome.  Flow state has a quality of 'smoothness' and 'coolness' and constant change.  Happiness feels more static and rough-edged.  That's just how I experience it.







*Journal of Youth and Adolescence
December 1998, Volume 27, Issue 6, pp 719-734
A Longitudinal Study of Self-Awareness and Depressed Mood in Adolescence
Self
-
**Awareness and Emotional intensity, in Paul J. Silvia, Self (2002)


----------



## skyQuake

I dont think you can call it flow...

High difficulty vs high skill is the standard definition.

In this case its ? difficulty vs ? skill.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm feeling like there might be a cheaper entry around $3.95.




At work and my charts not working.  Though I feel like the upside is too limited.  Same with BHP - small rises expected next few days.  Mood - 8/10.  Would like to buy AGO at $1 if possible.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Terrible, interrupted sleep last night.  Feel like crap.  3rd cup of caffeine and just starting to come alive.  Interesting, I can't get a feel for AGO.  Yesterday I had a reasonable certainty of $1 or maybe $1.04.  Today I'm like yes/no/yes/no/yes....  A good day to sit on my hands unless my mood changes.  Currently 4-5/10.

Doing what I can to jump start myself.  Hopefully will see AGO more clearly then.

Not sure what to say skyquake.  .... I saw that chart too.  All I could think was that if skill meets challenge = flow, then we'd see it every time an athlete hit the field.  But it's rare.  Must be more to it.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> Terrible, interrupted sleep last night.  Feel like crap.  3rd cup of caffeine and just starting to come alive.  Interesting, I can't get a feel for AGO.  Yesterday I had a reasonable certainty of $1 or maybe $1.04.  Today I'm like yes/no/yes/no/yes....  A good day to sit on my hands unless my mood changes.  Currently 4-5/10.
> 
> Doing what I can to jump start myself.  Hopefully will see AGO more clearly then.
> 
> Not sure what to say skyquake.  .... I saw that chart too.  All I could think was that if skill meets challenge = flow, then we'd see it every time an athlete hit the field.  But it's rare.  Must be more to it.





Ah clearly "Gut Feel Paralysis".




> Today I'm like yes/no/yes/no/yes




Always pictured you as male?

QAN still open?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Holding QAN.

Bought AGO $1.10.  This will be interesting because I'm still feeling extremely tired and ratty.  I don't like it already.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Gringotts Bank said:


> Holding QAN.
> 
> Bought AGO $1.10.  This will be interesting because I'm still feeling extremely tired and ratty.  I don't like it already.




AGO sold $1.07. Was wrong on every count.  

1.  I had a fixed idea it was going to bounce (rigid thinking)
2.  went looking for supporting evidence on AGO thread (not spontaneous and not in keeping with the method)
3.  decided too quickly

Making decisions when tired/grumpy - forget it.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> AGO sold $1.07. Was wrong on every count.
> 
> 1.  I had a fixed idea it was going to bounce (rigid thinking)
> 2.  went looking for supporting evidence on AGO thread (not spontaneous and not in keeping with the method)
> 3.  decided too quickly
> 
> Making *decisions* when tired/grumpy - forget it.




Thought this had nothing to do with decisions?

"Gut Feel"
In The ZONE"

Subconscious----
I think you need to re visit your "PLAN"

Still in the Zone with QAN?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

tech/a said:


> Thought this had nothing to do with decisions?
> 
> "Gut Feel"
> In The ZONE"
> 
> Subconscious----
> I think you need to re visit your "PLAN"
> 
> Still in the Zone with QAN?




Any thoughts on Monkey business?




gg


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Bought AGO $1.13.  Mood 8/10.


----------



## Country Lad

Gringotts Bank said:


> Bought AGO $1.13.  Mood 8/10.




Right now market mood to AGO is about 3/10 at $1.125.  Could change in an instant of course.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## waza1960

> Bought AGO $1.13. Mood 8/10.




   Aren't you just trying to regain lost profits from the previous trades? 
     Going against your stated aims


----------



## tech/a

Hmmm

I have an opinion but don't wish to
influence the ZEN.

Perhaps I'll send it to anyone who wants it
over the W/E and see how it pans out going forward.
Sorry GB not you as you may be influenced!

Send me a PM if you want a chart with my thoughts.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Are you a short man tech?  About 5 foot 2 inches is my guess.


----------



## Ves

Gringotts Bank said:


> Are you a short man tech?  About 5 foot 2 inches is my guess.



Mood angry 3/10?   Sorry couldn't resist!


----------



## peter2

This project is pathetic. Honestly it makes astrological traders seem like gurus. 

I hope beginners read this thread and realise what will happen without a trading plan or any trading structure. The results will be random with a losing bias (not seen in this thread yet as there hasn't been enough trades). The most damaging aspect is the effect on a traders psychology. If the OP continues in this manner the initial deterioration of a reasonable mind ("tired/grumpy" and probably irritable) developing into a clinical depression. 

Don't tell us that you're trying to tap into your subconscious "flow" state. Alcoholics and drug addicts use that excuse for their habits. How do you know that your subconscious flow state has a trading edge? You're guessing.

If you wake and feel like buying or selling something. It's gambling, I don't have problem with that. Keep your losses small and you might get lucky in a bull market.


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> Are you a short man tech?  About 5 foot 2 inches is my guess.




I'm a Duck---sheeesh.


----------



## Country Lad

Gringotts Bank said:


> Are you a short man tech?  About 5 foot 2 inches is my guess.




Add about a foot.  The inaccuracy of your guess probably matches much of the content of this thread.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Gringotts Bank

I'm getting quite sick of the negativity and attacks, so if anyone is interested, let me know.  I can certainly see why none of you post live trades.  That much is clear.


----------



## pavilion103

Country Lad said:


> Add about a foot.  The inaccuracy of your guess probably matches much of the content of this thread.
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad




LOL!


----------



## tech/a

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm getting quite sick of the negativity and attacks, so if anyone is interested, let me know.  I can certainly see why none of you post live trades.  That much is clear.




Chill man.


----------



## CanOz

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm getting quite sick of the negativity and attacks, so if anyone is interested, let me know.  I can certainly see why none of you post live trades.  That much is clear.




GB, good on ya for putting this on a public forum, but moderators can't stop members from expressing their thoughts. They've been polite, but you've put this out there for everyone, otherwise keep it to yourself.

CanOz


----------



## Country Lad

Gringotts Bank said:


> I'm getting quite sick of the negativity and attacks, so if anyone is interested, let me know.  I can certainly see why none of you post live trades.  That much is clear.




Nah, don't get knockers in knot, it is all good fun.  It is likely a case that the people here who have been playing in the market for a long time do not believe that a trading method based on a feeling in the water will lead to short or long term wealth creation.

btw, market sentiment to AGO by my calculations has now dropped to about 2/10.

Cheers
Country Lad


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## ThingyMajiggy

Doing any sort of stats recording GB(or anyone else?) so we can see how the trades are going over time, birds eye perspective type thing.


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