# "Multi-level marketing" - scam or legit?



## Atlas79 (11 December 2009)

Some friends of mine have signed up with "network 21", linked to Amway. The talk is that the way it has run is very different from the pyramid schemes of a couple of decades ago, but I still felt queasy on their behalf. I wrote to them of my concerns and got many reassuring noises. But there has been a weird almost religious cult starry-eyed vibe the last few times I have been to their place. Have decided to stay well away and having spoken a warning, will from now on keep the heck out of it altogether and good luck to them. 

Anyone had experience with MLM in general and / or Network 21 in particular?


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## boofhead (11 December 2009)

Can they explain how the operation works? Popping Network 21 in to Google finds some sites that agrue against Network 21. Multi-level marketing sounds pyramid to me. The official site isn't overly informative.


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## wayneL (11 December 2009)

Atlas79 said:


> But there has been a weird almost religious cult starry-eyed vibe the last few times I have been to their place. Have decided to stay well away and having spoken a warning, will from now on keep the heck out of it altogether and good luck to them.




Common.

But MLM is like a religious conversion. You'll never be able to talk sense to them, they'll have to come to their own realization.

It's just the way their psychology works.


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## skc (11 December 2009)

Atlas79 said:


> Some friends of mine have signed up with "network 21", linked to Amway. The talk is that the way it has run is very different from the pyramid schemes of a couple of decades ago, but I still felt queasy on their behalf. I wrote to them of my concerns and got many reassuring noises. But there has been a weird almost religious cult starry-eyed vibe the last few times I have been to their place. Have decided to stay well away and having spoken a warning, will from now on keep the heck out of it altogether and good luck to them.
> 
> Anyone had experience with MLM in general and / or Network 21 in particular?




I know some people who've done it and it's a legit / legal outfit as far as I know. I share your observation about being cult-like - that in itself is not a problem and will suit some people while turn others off. 

What I found was that they are always trying to sell something (products and membership) to friends and family. The relationship with them could potentially change because of this. Either they will love your product or they will hate your selling. 

From memory the money only becomes significant when you take it very seriously. So to me the balance of risk and reward (thinking like a trader as always) just didn't stack up.


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## Wysiwyg (11 December 2009)

I`ve seen results of top earners in Liberty League International and they are way, way beyond the confines of normal work for pay conditions. Matter of fact there is no dollar limit on how much an individual can pull in per month. Not everyone that joins starts on big dollars. The trick is getting others to join and them to get others to join so you have multiple income streams.

My take on the big money earners is they have built momentum, i.e. have had a run of people sign up under them and from that have worked on advertising and selling the company. They also have good communication skills which means pressing the right buttons with prospective ummmm employees . 

One woman pulled 200k in one month. That was the highest in Australia about a year ago.

p.s. they don't consider themselves MLM though.


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## wayneL (11 December 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> I`ve seen results of top earners in Liberty League International and they are way, way beyond the confines of normal work for pay conditions. Matter of fact there is no dollar limit on how much an individual can pull in per month. Not everyone that joins starts on big dollars. The trick is getting others to join and them to get others to join so you have multiple income streams.
> 
> My take on the big money earners is they have built momentum, i.e. have had a run of people sign up under them and from that have worked on advertising and selling the company. They also have good communication skills which means pressing the right buttons with prospective ummmm employees .
> 
> ...




What you have to look as is the proportion of MLM agents who are adequately rewarded for their efforts.

Some tiny, minuscule percentage will enjoy outsized rewards. The vast majority will not be recompensed anything remotely approaching minimum wage rates. 

That's the nature of the business.


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## Wysiwyg (11 December 2009)

wayneL said:


> What you have to look as is the proportion of MLM agents who are adequately rewarded for their efforts.
> 
> Some tiny, minuscule percentage will enjoy outsized rewards. The vast majority will not be recompensed anything remotely approaching minimum wage rates.
> 
> That's the nature of the business.



Just checked and they have changed their name. Also have some difference of opinion with the Australian Government. Hmmmm.
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/A..._releases/20090904_pyramid_schemes_alert.html



> Pyramid schemes alert:
> 
> 4 September 2009
> 
> ...


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## wildkactus (11 December 2009)

wayneL said:


> What you have to look as is the proportion of MLM agents who are adequately rewarded for their efforts.
> 
> Some tiny, minuscule percentage will enjoy outsized rewards. The vast majority will not be recompensed anything remotely approaching minimum wage rates.
> 
> That's the nature of the business.




Yes this is what I have found with also while looking at the MLM business,
You need to get in early, be in the top of the tree, so you can get the biggest downline and get the best reward for your efforts.

another way is to develope your downline online, this way you don't lose to many of your friends and family in the process, and you can also reach a far greater audience of partners!

I do believe in doing a good due dilligence on any of these companies, as they have had there fair share of dodgy dealers,

Happy trading


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## drsmith (11 December 2009)

About 20 years ago I was introduced to this by an outfit called Omegatrend, an offshoot of Amway.

They only had a limited range of products (including powdered milk which, god forbid, I actually drank ) but the culture of group members was cult like.

While it is a pyramid selling structure it is legit if it involves selling product and not just marketing material.

Like most things in life only a very few that try make it to the top while most are foot soldiers who get little reward. The spin in those days was 6 distributers wide and 6 deep (6 to the power of 6) to become a diamond distributer (Amway). That though representes close to 50000 sellers.


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## Muschu (12 December 2009)

There is a book [I have a copy] titled

Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprise
Stephen Butterfield (Author) 

which may interest some of you.


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## jono1887 (13 December 2009)

Its funny how many people actually fall for this rubbish... but then again, if there were no idiots in the world, we wouldnt feel smart now would we :


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## Muschu (13 December 2009)

jono1887 said:


> Its funny how many people actually fall for this rubbish... but then again, if there were no idiots in the world, we wouldnt feel smart now would we :




IMO it is definitely not a matter of being an idiot or even of being gullible.  We all have vulnerable episodes [I certainly do] and there are organisations or individuals who will take advantage of this vulnerability.  And, even then, many of those individuals are victims of preying behavior themselves.

I don't mind what people choose to sell, believe or promote.  What I do support is access to fully informed decision-making. Sadly some organisations abhor any open discussion about doubt or their worth.


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## Atlas79 (13 December 2009)

Muschu said:


> IMO it is definitely not a matter of being an idiot or even of being gullible.  We all have vulnerable episodes [I certainly do] and there are organisations or individuals who will take advantage of this vulnerability.  And, even then, many of those individuals are victims of preying behavior themselves.
> 
> I don't mind what people choose to sell, believe or promote.  What I do support is access to fully informed decision-making. Sadly some organisations abhor any open discussion about doubt or their worth.




It's the methods they use that bother me. New "friends" have suddenly appeared on the scene... every gathering / BBQ / social event is somehow tied to this MLM thing. People talk in dreamy tones, starry looks in their eyes, about how great it will be to retire in 18 months' time. One of the new "friends" tries to hawk all kinds of crap to everyone, from fizzy energy drinks to moisturizer to jewelery. There was something weird and robotic about some of them, difficult to put my finger on why they bothered me. Others were really adept at this kind of predatory group-think, each takes a role like an elaborate game of good cop / bad cop, to subtly herd we outsiders into their pen with them. They hammer home the talking points too: early retirement, how great it is to be rich, being "positive", etc. And this was all at a BBQ to supposedly celebrate something completely unrelated. Telling that way, way more food was prepared than was needed. (Losing friends already and it's not long into it...)

It was genuinely creepy. Maybe it is legal, maybe it is even at least partly as good as they say it is. But why the need for these tactics to get people in?


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## Wysiwyg (13 December 2009)

Muschu said:


> I don't mind what people choose to sell, believe or promote.  What I do support is access to fully informed decision-making. Sadly some organisations abhor any open discussion about doubt or their worth.



Did you feel targeted at all? Like your personal financial details were being leaked or you were being monitored?


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## GumbyLearner (13 December 2009)

The key is the subliminal music and interesting smells. If you are at that stage then you truly are a complete moron.


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## Ageo (13 December 2009)

drsmith said:


> About 20 years ago I was introduced to this by an outfit called Omegatrend, an offshoot of Amway.
> 
> They only had a limited range of products (including powdered milk which, god forbid, I actually drank ) but the culture of group members was cult like.
> 
> ...




Well i joined Omegatrend back in 2003 and alot of things changed from then. Personally i didnt see anything wrong with it although the system was a little flawed and finally got bought out but besides some of the pocket money i made it taught me a hell of alot in business. I say alot of my business education was thanks to that so for me it was a paid university experience.

Like anything treat with caution. I have seen many concepts including Network 21 but to me i have been there and done that. For personal development they are great but for business its not for me.


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## Julia (13 December 2009)

Some religions function like MLM organisations.  Put on free food, bring in motivational speakers, offer other assistance, all designed to increase their membership.  And then those members go out and recruit more, and so on.


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## Muschu (14 December 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> Did you feel targeted at all? Like your personal financial details were being leaked or you were being monitored?





Certainly I have been targeted many times even just for expressing a point of view contrary to an organisation's liking.  

This included a defamation suit [from an Australian organisation] which was  withdrawn after a pro bono lawyer intervened.  

It also included a federal politician intervening, offering to express his views in Parliament, regarding an international group which was not only monitoring me but invading privacy bigtime.

If reading this I would ask you to refer back to my comments in a previous post.  I have no issues with freedom of belief as long as we are not subject to coercive persuasion or undue influence during episdoes of vulnerabilty.

Anyone on ASF never been vulnerable?  I have!

Regards

Rick


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## alwaysLearning (14 December 2009)

Yes these types of things are all scams.  Please read the thread over at whirlpool.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1206044


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## adobee (14 December 2009)

i had so many clients try to put "Market America" or Market Australia onto me about three years ago.. what a con.. 

I think on the whole it is like any business .. the more referrers etc you have the better however on the whole these are a con to sell a crap product like a health drink or the like..

Referrals are good but get your own business and build it up ..


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## gcampton (1 August 2012)

Atlas79 said:


> Some friends of mine have signed up with "network 21", linked to Amway. The talk is that the way it has run is very different from the pyramid schemes of a couple of decades ago, but I still felt queasy on their behalf. I wrote to them of my concerns and got many reassuring noises. But there has been a weird almost religious cult starry-eyed vibe the last few times I have been to their place. Have decided to stay well away and having spoken a warning, will from now on keep the heck out of it altogether and good luck to them.
> 
> Anyone had experience with MLM in general and / or Network 21 in particular?




Amway isn't a scam it just TAKES A LOT OF WORK.
Just like any job although the payoff from Amways doesn't come until you're 3+ years in. You need to work a ton, I'm talking going to meetings once a week to learn new skills from successful MLMer's network with them. Meetings every night with potential clients (if you have a day job) if your unemployed it can be good aside form the fact you won't make any money for at least a year.


It really is a good system, however you will have no life. Which is the main reason why I quit after 13 months. I made a bit of cash from it, I sold some air-conditioners to Aus-Post call center which bought in some profit, and in 1 year signed 3 people up, 2 people quit within a couple months and the 3rd quit after 5m. Basically it's hard to seem like an Authoritive leader when you don't have downlines already attatched to you that new prospects can see.

When you do however get some good downlines new prospects are less likely to quit in the short term as they can see you making money from it and try to hold in there and make it work for them. Basically it's like 1 out of every 1000 people you have a meeting with will actually run with it. So you need to at least do 1000 meetings per year. Which is like 2-3 per day... Do the math. You will have no life but work+Amway.

However the payoffs after being in business for 6+ years are unlike any other business and I would say worth it for majority of people, however I'm lazy and always looking for quick $.

GL, G. 

edit: also as far as your friends go that's just the nature of the business unfortunately, you get so pumped and energized about life you can't sleep at night (literally) and you start wanting all your friends to come with you on the ride. Mostly it's all the flashy cars and mansions they show off to everyone, that and the Energy drinks and vitimins you pump your body full of. All my friends felt the same way about it, couldn't associate with me because my brain was on 1 track and 1 track only. $$$


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## Faramir (31 March 2017)

Just yesterday, someone asked me if I was looking for something? Then the next question was "are you looking for extra income?" I said no again.

Last time I asked this was back in 2004. I was to visit someone and as soon as I arrived at their house, out came the fizzy drinks and the marketing talk. Can't remember what it was called, it was formerly called Amway. Why does OmegaTrends sounds familiar?

I admit I was most vulnerable when I was retrenched back in 1998 but I had enough sense to pull out and say no.

I actually feel like I have been asked so many times, but in reality, it is not that many times. I am very distant from people. I have crap verbal communication skills. I am grumpy in public. Why do people still want to track me down and ask me to join?

Do you become that desperate to sign anyone up? Do you become addicted to seeking approval from your peers and people "above", that it is easy for them to manipulate you inside their cult. Is that why people approach me? They are desperate??? I certainly do not give off an appearance of "I have lots of friends!"

I can understand why people get caught up in these marketing "exercises". It may fill a hole in their lives. Please do not approach me. I am useless to you!


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## Muschu (1 April 2017)

Omegatrend is similar. Both to be avoided.... You may be able to find an older US exposure on Amway.

And don't put yourself down so much.  We all have different positive attributes,,,


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## Faramir (1 April 2017)

Just trying to unsell myself so that I look less appealing to these people. Anything else, I will talk about nyself in a different light.

Maybe it won't work because they are willing to get anyone involved. Is there anyone they would not accept? Is there anyone they won't approach?


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## Muschu (1 April 2017)

When I said US exposure I was referring to an old US 60 Minutes program which can be Googled.
A book of interest possibly is "Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprise".

Many a relationship has been badly damaged by multi-level marketers trying to recruit family and friends into the organisation.

Key question to be asked is whether the focus is on the product [washing powder or whatever] or in making money from other peoples' efforts; and the contacts of those people; and theirs;... ad infinitum.


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## basilio (8 June 2020)

Multi level Marketing ?  
It is the  true American Dream.
*Selling a Dream *that makes the founders rich as  Trump while  the downlines live in la la land and finally end up broke with a garage full of products they bought to stay in the game.

Came across an excellent humorous analysis of this sticky little web by John Oliver. Well worth seeing an passing on.

And whatever you do pass on the Kool Aide.


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## basilio (8 June 2020)

*Become a God in Central Florida*
Learn all about it.
10 part series on SBS which closely follows the script of the MLM story.
Enjoy !

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/on-becoming-a-god-in-central-florida


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## basilio (17 February 2021)

Excellent indepth analysis of the dodginess of MLM schemes.
Well worth reading carefully if someone tries to invite you to a "special opportunity" presentation.
By the way John Olivers presentation  (two posts above) is far more fun and just as incisive









						The 5 Fatal Flaws of Multi-Level Network Marketing (MLM)
					

Multi-level marketing companies, i.e., MLM/network marketing, has five fundamental flaws that you need to know before you join one.




					toughnickel.com


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