# Is Shorten PM material?



## dutchie (24 April 2012)

So we have a Swan that is a goose.

Now we have a smart alec Shorten that's one too!

Bill thought he had Tony Abbott in his sights and picked him up on his stumble about the time that the RBA would announce the next interest rate:-

BILL SHORTEN: We all make mistakes but when you want to be the alternative Prime Minister of Australia, interest rates is just such an important issue and the Reserve Bank board has been meeting on the *second* Tuesday of the month since 1960, according to the RBA archives.
It's been meeting on the *second* Tuesday of the month since 1960.


But wait....

SAMANTHA HAWLEY: That's wrong too. The RBA board meets on the *first* Tuesday of the month, not the second as Bill Shorten says.


We'll have to remember that one, Bill,  if you ever entertain being PM or Opposition leader.

Ha  ha ha - I love it when smart alecs make fools of themselves when trying to make fools of others.

PM material - LOL - you've got to be kidding.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3488236.htm


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## Starcraftmazter (26 April 2012)

None of them know anything about economics, and they never have. Look at the catastrophe Howard and Costello created.

None of them are fit to be PM nor run the country. Fire them all and replace them with competent non-mainstream economists.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 April 2012)

Shorten is a lightweight.

[video]http://video.news.com.au/2227300814/Shorten-supports-PM-on-Slipper?area=videoindex1[/video]

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 April 2012)

Poor Bill Shorten's, Gillard brown-nosing interview with David Speers has gone worldwide.

This from the UK Sun, a reputable organ, not known to spread tittle nor tattle.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...nister-takes-brown-nosing-to-a-new-level.html



> IF you thought British politicians were brown-nosers then you should see their Australian counterparts.
> 
> An Aussie MP is spreading hilarity around the world in a clip from a news interview where he says he agrees with his Prime Minister... even though he hasn’t got a clue what she’s said.




gg


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## nulla nulla (28 April 2012)

Saw this on the tele last night. I think it is one of the funniest clips I have seen since Monty Python. If he ever quits politics or gets the flick, Shorten should consider a carreer as a comedian, then again.........


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## dutchie (28 April 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Poor Bill Shorten's, Gillard brown-nosing interview with David Speers has gone worldwide.
> 
> This from the UK Sun, a reputable organ, not known to spread tittle nor tattle.
> 
> ...




This event sums up Bill pretty well. (Reinforced by his RBA stupid gaff!)


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## dutchie (3 August 2012)

Bill demonstrating more of his leadership, of the Labor party, skills 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-gillard-blow-up/story-e6freuy9-1226442272819


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## sails (3 August 2012)




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## Calliope (4 August 2012)

Bill Shorten came to power in an age of union thuggery. Annie Huang is lucky Bill didn't send round some union heavies to beat her up.

Meanwhile on the Gillard/Wilson/Blewitt alleged rorts, Shorten said;   

"The union took the matter to the police, the union got these people removed and they were *relentless* in terms of chasing these matters down at that time."

Relentless? No member of the gang of three has been bought to justice.


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## Ves (4 August 2012)

I don't like Bill Shorten  (he held up / is holding up some key reform announcements in my industry) - but this is another media beat-up.  What a yawnfest the political news is lately, a waste of time for intelligent people.


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## Gringotts Bank (4 August 2012)

First he mouths off at the shopkeeper for not having a pie ready.  Then he makes up some BS excuse about her saying "Gillard is soft".  You can bet she said nothing of the sort.  It's not the end of the world, but he is still a dick.


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## Calliope (4 August 2012)

Ves said:


> I don't like Bill Shorten  (he held up / is holding up some key reform announcements in my industry) - but this is another media beat-up.  What a yawnfest the political news is lately, a waste of time for intelligent people.




You think so?  It probably would have gone unreported, except that the woman, who was raised in China, thought she heard the former head of one of most stand-over unions in the country,  say "You will lose business."

Is it any wonder she had a sleepless night? 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...back-to-bite-him/story-fn59niix-1226442555518


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## Ves (4 August 2012)

I guess you can twist words however you like. Especially if you have a video without any audio (or even better if you did, you could cut the audio off at a particular moment for maximum effect!).

"You will lose the business"  "You will lose my business"  "You have lost my business"  "You will not have my business" "I am taking my business elsewhere"

The above phrases are all pretty similar... but...

... it is amazing how adaptable the English language is.  He could have said any one of them and it still could have an alternate meaning depending on your perspective / context.

Option A:  Doomsday scenario.   I am going to close your business down.

Option B:  You do not have what I want.  I will shop elsewhere.

Which may I ask makes a better story?


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## Miss Hale (5 August 2012)

(I posted this on another thread but it's more appropriate here).

Interesting the way this was treated on 'Insiders' this morning, more or less as a joke at the end of the show. Imagine if Tony Abbott had done something like this, it would be headine news and ther would be claims that he is unfit to be PM 

I was really surprised with the way Shorten reacted though. Regardless of the fact that he was just popping in to get a pie for his son before a footy match, being a politician unfortunately means you can be approached at any time by members of the public who wish to discuss or comment on political matters, it's just part of the job. If he was in a hurry and really didn't have time to engage in political debate he could have still behaved much more graciously.


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## drsmith (5 August 2012)

Miss Hale said:


> Interesting the way this was treated on 'Insiders' this morning, more or less as a joke at the end of the show. Imagine if Tony Abbott had done something like this, it would be headine news and ther would be claims that he is unfit to be PM



Indeed. 

A soggy humble pie of that nature would have been rubbed in TA's face while Bill was allowed to eat his with at least some dignity.


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## noco (5 August 2012)

I would say after all the publicity this week, Wayne Swan is setting himself up to replace Gillard and Shorten may be wedged out of contention.


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## sails (5 August 2012)

noco said:


> I would say after all the publicity this week, Wayne Swan is setting himself up to replace Gillard and Shorten may be wedged out of contention.





Swan for PM?...








Source: Offended New Jersey says Treasurer Wayne Swan's a working-class zero 4


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## moXJO (5 August 2012)

sails said:


> Swan for PM?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice to know our government isn't just scoffed at locally 




> The state's senate Republican leader also mocked Mr Swan, saying: "Apparently the electoral 'silly season' is not a uniquely American phenomenon."
> A New Jersey newspaper columnist asked: "Was this a blunder from Down Under, or maybe just someone fleeing a lifetime of Tie me kangaroo down, sport?"
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/off...ro/story-e6frfm1i-1226441794204#ixzz22fKnLfw0


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## noco (5 August 2012)

sails said:


> Swan for PM?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think Sawnnie has been stairing at the full moon too much this week!!!!!!!!!


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## drsmith (21 October 2012)

Barry Cassidy was soft on Bill Shorten on Insiders today. 

My tip is that he'll be leading the Labor Party by the end of the year.


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## wayneL (21 October 2012)

sails said:


> Swan for PM?...
> 
> 
> Source: Offended New Jersey says Treasurer Wayne Swan's a working-class zero 4






> Mr Swan, who compared himself to Springsteen




Egad!!!

That's like George Costanza comparing himself to George Clooney.


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## MrBurns (21 October 2012)

Watched insiders for about a minute before I turned off,just an ad for the ALP

Shorten is one of the weakest men in politics, he is just embarrassing to watch.


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## Calliope (21 October 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Watched insiders for about a minute before I turned off,just an ad for the ALP
> 
> Shorten is one of the weakest men in politics, he is just embarrassing to watch.




He does it again;



> Mr Shorten told ABC's Insiders that he thought the claims made by former Labor MP Maxine McKew in her book that the leadership crisis was manufactured by Ms Gillard's supporters to oust Mr Rudd were wrong.
> 
> *"I think that that is factually incorrect," he said.*
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ted-against-rudd/story-fn59niix-1226500131611


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## MrBurns (21 October 2012)

Calliope said:


> He does it again;
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ted-against-rudd/story-fn59niix-1226500131611




He hasnt read the book but it's all wrong and he agrees with Gillard on this but doesnt know what she said....
How much of our taxes does this cream puff take home ?


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## stewiejp (21 October 2012)

I think the fact Shorten is repeatedly questioned about his political ambitions, especially the leadership of the ALP, speaks volumes about the fact he will one day, lead. I don't think he'll do much of a job, and the fact he used to be a union "heavy weight" will go against him - but he'll lead the ALP at some stage. Count on it.


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## DB008 (21 October 2012)

stewiejp said:


> I think the fact Shorten is repeatedly questioned about his political ambitions, especially the leadership of the ALP, speaks volumes about the fact he will one day, lead. I don't think he'll do much of a job, and the fact he used to be a union "heavy weight" will go against him - but he'll lead the ALP at some stage. Count on it.




Really?


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## bellenuit (12 January 2013)




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## Julia (12 January 2013)

Um, who is Bob Kernohan?


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## sptrawler (13 January 2013)

Let's cut the crap. The answer is NO


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## drsmith (13 January 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Let's cut the crap. The answer is NO



Indeed.

If BS is PM material, I'll..............................

EDIT: Editing what I just said.


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## bellenuit (13 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Um, who is Bob Kernohan?




He was the Joint Branch President of the Victorian Branch of the AWU around the time of the Wilson/Blewitt/Gillard slush fund affair.  This is him in another interview where he is discussing what he believes were renovations to Gillard's own property paid for by the AWU (which she denies). Kernohan, who many describe as an honourable union official, tried in vain to get the AWU to take action to retrieve the money stolen by Wilson and to get the whole affair investigated by the police and possibly even a royal commission. His efforts led to naught and he eventually resigned.


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## bellenuit (13 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Um, who is Bob Kernohan?




This is Kernohan describing a bashing he received as a result of his whistle blowing.


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## bellenuit (13 January 2013)

This is an email Kernohan wrote today to Michael Smith prompted by an article he read in the Australian today, which you can read in full (the email and the article) at this link.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...a-sober-analysis-of-gillards-stuffedness.html

_Professor Ross Fitzgerald in today's Australian newspaper said this in the OPINION section: " It will be a challenge  (for Gillard) to shake off the persistent allegations regarding the massive fraud perpetrated against the AWU" I am very proud to say, to the best of my knowledge, that this is (almost)  a direct quote from myself. The only change I would make is this. They are not persistent "allegations" it is a FACT that GILLARD is a liar, cheat and a fraudster. She aided and abetted Bruce Wilson to rip off over a million dollars that should have been AWU members money. She and Wilson didn't miss the opportunity when it presented its self to rip off the WA taxpayers of a bout $500,000 either. Ms Gillard, I am waiting for your response to my statements of fact where I have said on numerous occasions that you are a liar, fraudster, thief and a crook. You aided and abetted Wilson as a Lawyer and at the same time you were having a sexual relationship with this grub.  Please take me to court, at least seek an injunction against me. For no other reason than to protect the dignity of the high office that you presently hold, albeit by default.   Your Lawyers can contact me via my good friend Michael Smith.                    Bob Kernohan.        P.S.  Michael, If you post it please post all of it, thanks mate.'_


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## MrBurns (13 January 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Let's cut the crap. The answer is NO




He shouldn't even be in Parliament...........our taxes at work.


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## drsmith (12 September 2013)

Bill Shorten highlighting Labor's problem in his Labor leadership announcement,



> I've taken the decision to run with regard the interests of the great Australian Labor Party.........




What about the interests of the nation ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...t-for-labor-party-leadership/4953866#comments

To add to that, he's not exactly charismatic.

Over to you Anthony Albanese.


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## MrBurns (12 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> He's not exactly charismatic.




No he isn't, again I wonder, how people like him get so far in life.


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## drsmith (12 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> No he isn't, again I wonder, how people like him get so far in life.



Perhaps it's the long shadow that Uncle Psycho still casts.


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## Julia (12 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> No he isn't, again I wonder, how people like him get so far in life.



Hard to see, isn't it.  The only answer I can see is the woeful lack of alternatives.  But then I've never understood why anyone would even consider Shorten as PM material in the first place.

Anthony Albanese at least has what most would see as a genuine working class Labor background plus he has a sense of humour, something I've never seen in Shorten.


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## moXJO (12 September 2013)

Well he has the initials for a labor leader. BS is labors number one choice. 
The first leader after losing an election is usually the sacrificial  lamb, couldn't think of a more deserving guy for it.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 September 2013)

Bill Shorten would make an excellent Leader of the ALP.

It would continue the lineage of backstabbers, self servers, ignoramuses and muppets who have served as leaders back to the Latham years.

Bring it on Bill.

There is a wide consensus for you to lead.

You good boy you.

gg


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## Bushman (13 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> No he isn't, again I wonder, how people like him get so far in life.




Straight out of uni into the union movement, straight from the union movement into the ALP. Live in a bubble your whole working career. 

He does share one pre-requisite; a lust for power. Sadly, this seems to be the only things the ALP stands for. 

It was interesting to see Bob Hawke on election night shaking his head as younger ALP-types tried to pin this loss on disunity only. They seemingly have not learnt their lessons if Shorten takes the reigns. 

Albanese is the other alternative. The problem is they are all covered in the sticky toxic mud of the Gillard/KRudd fiasco. 

The next ALP leader, IMO, will be a clean skin not tainted by recent goings on. Otherwise Abbott will be a three-term PM ...


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## Country Lad (13 September 2013)

Here's one assessment.

Cheers
Country Lad


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## MrBurns (13 September 2013)

Bushman said:


> Straight out of uni into the union movement, straight from the union movement into the ALP. Live in a bubble your whole working career.
> 
> He does share one pre-requisite; a lust for power. Sadly, this seems to be the only things the ALP stands for.




I just don't understand why no one in the Labor party has the courage to stand up and say the obvious, that this man is not PM material, makes me fear for the future when the Labor party is reduced to this and many people still vote for them.

I've thought for quite a while that the general public has been dumbed down dramatically by the media having a free reign, reality TV etc, the relaxation of traditional values, no one stands for a woman in public transport any more, school kids let fly with the "f" word on public transport in front of females.........and so on.

So this new generation will vote for someone of incredibly low worth such as Rudd because he is some sort of cult hero, this does not bode well for our future in my opinion.


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## Calliope (13 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I just don't understand why no one in the Labor party has the courage to stand up and say the obvious, that this man is not PM material, makes me fear for the future when the Labor party is reduced to this and many people still vote for them.




Suitable for PM? Only in Labor culture. Make your own assessment about a man who will do or say anything to achieve power. He said the things* I have in bolds* while in a adulterous relationship with the equally duplicitous Chloe Bryce-Parkin a married woman with two young children.



> Mr Shorten and Ms Bryce have been friends for at least a year. The pair had dinner together at Quentin Bryce's residence in Brisbane on September 5, 2007, when she was Queensland Governor, according to a Vice-Regal notice in Brisbane's Courier Mail newspaper.
> 
> "In the evening, the Governor received the call of Ms Chloe Bryce-Parkin and Mr Bill Shorten,'' the notice states.
> 
> ...




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...or-g-gs-daughter/story-e6freuzr-1111117539555


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## MrBurns (13 September 2013)

Calliope said:


> Suitable for PM? Only in Labor culture. Make your own assessment about a man who will do or say anything to achieve power. He said the things* I have in bolds* while in a adulterous relationship with the equally duplicitous Chloe Bryce-Parkin a married woman with two young children.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...or-g-gs-daughter/story-e6freuzr-1111117539555




I didn't say he was suitable, just the opposite.


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## Calliope (13 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I didn't say he was suitable, just the opposite.




I am aware of that. I was answering the question posed in the title of the thread. As for leader of the opposition I can't think of a better qualified man. As a Liberal I would prefer they pick the inferior product. If Albanese is smart he will allow this guy who has married the daughter of an influential millionaire and betrayed her for the GG's daughter to further his ambitions, and then betrayed two leaders, to self destruct. Shorten is the kind of rat that makes Windsor. Oakeshott, Slipper and Thomson look like angels.


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## Miss Hale (13 September 2013)

Shorten or Albanese for opposition leader?  My prayers have been answered  Looking forward to a long period of Coalition government


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## Whiskers (13 September 2013)

Calliope said:


> Shorten is the kind of rat that makes Windsor. Oakeshott, Slipper and Thomson look like angels.




I find myself agreeing with you here Calliope.



> I am aware of that. I was answering the question posed in the title of the thread. As for leader of the opposition I can't think of a better qualified man. As a Liberal I would prefer they pick the inferior product.
> 
> If Albanese is smart he will allow this guy who has married the daughter of an influential millionaire and betrayed her for the GG's daughter to further his ambitions, and then betrayed two leaders, to self destruct.




But, as a proud and loyal Australian, far ahead of any lowly political party... I'd say while your reasoning is just the tonic for infighting, self-serving politicians, it is hardly the rationale that someone who is confident of their credentials and policy position would espouse too in the spirit of strong, accountable government.


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## piggybank (13 September 2013)

Has (Shorten) sold his mother yet? or has he eaten her carcus?


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## Tink (14 September 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I just don't understand why no one in the Labor party has the courage to stand up and say the obvious, that this man is not PM material, makes me fear for the future when the Labor party is reduced to this and many people still vote for them.
> 
> I've thought for quite a while that the general public has been dumbed down dramatically by the media having a free reign, reality TV etc, the relaxation of traditional values, no one stands for a woman in public transport any more, school kids let fly with the "f" word on public transport in front of females.........and so on.
> 
> So this new generation will vote for someone of incredibly low worth such as Rudd because he is some sort of cult hero, this does not bode well for our future in my opinion.




Agree with you MrBurns, but thankfully the majority of the electorate saw right through them, to the point that Rudd felt he had to stand down, though I think he shouldnt be there at all.

With Shorten being behind all the wheeling and dealing in the Labor party for the last six years, saying he would stand by Rudd or Gillard, then change his mind at the last minute, I dont think he will go too far.


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## drsmith (26 September 2013)

The crown of party leader for the party just booted out of government is typically a crown of thorns. Watching 730 tonight, Bill Shorten looks tired and he sounds like his heart's not in it. 

The long shadow Uncle Psycho still casts wouldn't help either.


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## Julia (26 September 2013)

If you were  a Labor Party member and had to choose either Albanese or Shorten, which would you pick?
(Yes, I know it's an invidious choice, but give it a go.)


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## Whiskers (26 September 2013)

Julia said:


> If you were  a Labor Party member and had to choose either Albanese or Shorten, which would you pick?
> (Yes, I know it's an invidious choice, but give it a go.)




I'm not a member of any party, but I'd suggest the membership is more inclined to Albanese, partly because Rudd was popular (maybe still is) with the membership and sorta endorsed Albanese by anointing him as his deputy. 

Secondly, Albanese is left wing Labor arguably closer to traditional grass roots than Shorten (right).

Thirdly I suspect Albanese will be seen as more stable and trustworthy by the membership. 

The caucus... that's another matter. Shorton may garner more support there, BUT...

given the flow of admissions (from both sides now) that party preselection is corrupted, controlled by power brokers and doesn't reflect grass root membership wishes, I expect we won't see either of these become PM, but just a transition to the next election when fresh faces selected by membership may produce the next PM for Labor.

The caveat to all this is that if as I suspect and GG indicated on another thread, Rudd is already facilitating a return to power, Albanese is more likely (than shorton) to stand aside for Rudd. I suspect the membership is hoping this, because Albanese is not likely to win an election unless Abbott's team made a significant balls-up. Rudd on the other hand could potentially steal the PMship back under certain circumstances.

In short the invidious choice (calculated by Rudds rule changes) to create ill will and resentment of faction bosses and rigged preselection, is likely Albanese for leader.


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## sptrawler (27 September 2013)

Julia said:


> If you were  a Labor Party member and had to choose either Albanese or Shorten, which would you pick?
> (Yes, I know it's an invidious choice, but give it a go.)




It is just a very sad situation.
Crocadile tears Albanese, or knife merchant Shorten.
What a magic choice.


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 September 2013)

Shorten has the roots on board and the experience to be PM.

I do hope he never achieves it.

gg


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## Whiskers (27 September 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Shorten has the roots on board and the experience to be PM.
> 
> I do hope he never achieves it.
> 
> gg




I just hope for the good of the ALP and Aus politics generally, the reported rush for new ALP memberships were disillusioned grass roots and not more Shorten feeder roots.


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## noco (27 September 2013)

Julia said:


> If you were  a Labor Party member and had to choose either Albanese or Shorten, which would you pick?
> (Yes, I know it's an invidious choice, but give it a go.)




Julia, I would not give you two bob for either of them....it does not matter which one wins because they are both a pair of no-hopers.


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## Tink (1 October 2013)

Bill Shorten wants quotas

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...as-to-boost-number-of-gay-politicians/4987276

No wonder Labor is on the nose in Australia, with only 31% voting for them.


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## drsmith (1 October 2013)

Tink said:


> Bill Shorten wants quotas
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...as-to-boost-number-of-gay-politicians/4987276
> 
> No wonder Labor is on the nose in Australia, with only 31% voting for them.



The more Labor goes down the route of minority over merit as a matter of principal, the more they will lose the support of the mainstream.

What Labor needs to do is get back to basics and have a quota for adults. Then they'd be a cull at the top.


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## Whiskers (1 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> The more Labor goes down the route of minority over merit as a matter of principal, the more they will lose the support of the mainstream.
> 
> What Labor needs to do is get back to basics and have a quota for adults. Then they'd be a cull at the top.




Another example of ideology clouding out logic. 

I recall seeing research long ago that said women tended to resent being patronised by a quota system and much preferred promotion on merit. 

Labor has started to break down the corrupt preselection obstacles with Rudds rule changes... call me cynical, but I see this as an avenue for people like Shorton to plant supporters back in the party. 

Once they start quotas for a few, where is it going to end?.. Women, gay, aboriginals, other ethnicity, religion, handicap, wealth, age...


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## Julia (1 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Another example of ideology clouding out logic.
> 
> I recall seeing research long ago that said women tended to resent being patronised by a quota system and much preferred promotion on merit.
> 
> ...



+1.   Mr Shorten has already suggested amongst his current campaigning that there should be proportionate representation of indigenous people and gays, even if this had to be brought about via a quota.
Just crazy.

This isn't right on the topic, but I'm sure Mr Shorten would be keen on it, is an item on "The World Today" where there is now proposed to be, in addition to holiday leave and sick leave, domestic violence leave, suggested to be an additional twenty days a year.  So apparently people whose home life is unpleasant can now take 20 days a year off work.

I'm the last person to want to underplay the hideousness of domestic or any other form of violence, but soon we're going to be at the stage where the business owner will be damn lucky to have his workers turn up at all.


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## noco (2 October 2013)

And this bloke wants to be Prime Minister one day.

He is like a rat living in a sewer....He is rotten to the core and deeply involved in all sorts of indirect corruption.

How come there are no back ground checks on people like Shorten. He should not even be in parliament.

Read the facts in the link below.


http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...-a-faceless-fool-the-real-bill-shorten-story/


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## sydboy007 (2 October 2013)

noco said:


> And this bloke wants to be Prime Minister one day.
> 
> He is like a rat living in a sewer....He is rotten to the core and deeply involved in all sorts of indirect corruption.
> 
> ...




yet you have no problem with Abbotts slush fund in his attack on Hanson.  When a politician says "There are some things the public has no particular right to know." you know they've done something very wrong and they're doing their damnedest to hide it.

I'll fully support any royal commission in the the behaviour of any of the ALP as long as Tony has to face under oath all the questions he's avoided and lied about over the years.

Could be a good way to clean out a corrupt lot eh?


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## noco (2 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> yet you have no problem with Abbotts slush fund in his attack on Hanson.  When a politician says "There are some things the public has no particular right to know." you know they've done something very wrong and they're doing their damnedest to hide it.
> 
> I'll fully support any royal commission in the the behaviour of any of the ALP as long as Tony has to face under oath all the questions he's avoided and lied about over the years.
> 
> Could be a good way to clean out a corrupt lot eh?




Do you have a link or any hard evidence on what you are claiming?

I must have hit a nerve old boy with the information laid out by The Kangaroo Court.


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## tinhat (2 October 2013)

I've not read through this thread and have no interest in doing so. I just thought I would chime in with an observation that if Shorten were to be opposition leader then the Jesuit takeover of the westminster system of government would be complete! The chief justice of the high court, prime minister, treasurer and the opposition leader would all be Jesuit educated boys - not to mention other ministers such as Pyne, Joyce; and of course the Pope!


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## sydboy007 (3 October 2013)

noco said:


> Do you have a link or any hard evidence on what you are claiming?
> 
> I must have hit a nerve old boy with the information laid out by The Kangaroo Court.




no nerve

I have little to no respect for the current crop of politicians.  Brandis / Joyce / Slipper / Thompson all show what happens when you think you deserve extras, or just feel above the law.

Have a read of this and then let me know if you think Abbott has some very tricky questions to answer?

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/politics/tony-abbott-and-his-slushy-question-of-character/

http://www.theglobalmail.org/blog/in-politics-slush-happens/505/

- - - Updated - - -



tinhat said:


> I've not read through this thread and have no interest in doing so. I just thought I would chime in with an observation that if Shorten were to be opposition leader then the Jesuit takeover of the westminster system of government would be complete! The chief justice of the high court, prime minister, treasurer and the opposition leader would all be Jesuit educated boys - not to mention other ministers such as Pyne, Joyce; and of course the Pope!




Balldric Pell's cunning plan has finally come to fruition


----------



## noco (3 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> no nerve
> 
> I have little to no respect for the current crop of politicians.  Brandis / Joyce / Slipper / Thompson all show what happens when you think you deserve extras, or just feel above the law.
> 
> ...




What does the Labor Party preach every time one of their members are in trouble..*"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"

So I guess that would apply to Abbott as well as Slipper, Thomson and Gillard

And as for the donors to this so called slush fund....who knows the Labor Party may have been the largest donor.*


----------



## sydboy007 (3 October 2013)

noco said:


> What does the Labor Party preach every time one of their members are in trouble..*"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"
> 
> So I guess that would apply to Abbott as well as Slipper, Thomson and Gillard
> 
> And as for the donors to this so called slush fund....who knows the Labor Party may have been the largest donor.*



*

So Abbott banged on about the "slush fund" Gillard provided assistance in setting up, but no hands on access to it and Abbott spent what 6 months to a year saying questions must be answered.

But Abbotta sets up a "slush fund" does his damnedest to get legal advise on how to set it up in a way that he wont have to provide any info to the AEC, lies about it, pays the legal costs for someone who PURGERS themselves, and then says "There are some things the public has no particular right to know."

If that had come from Gillard I'm sure you'd have demanded her resignation, yet you just don't care that Abbott has been a serial liar and probably helped pervert democracy in this country.

People on this forum need to apply the same level of standards to all the politicians, not just those they don't approve of.

ps i have no real idea if Shorten is PM material, but then 3 years ago most would have said no way for Abbott, so attitudes can change.*


----------



## drsmith (3 October 2013)

Poor Bill still doesn't get it with Tony Abbott.



> "We can make a decision to make Tony Abbott history in one term, that's what we can do," Mr Shorten said.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...d-file-meeting-wollongong/4995086?section=nsw


----------



## MrBurns (3 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> Poor Bill still doesn't get it with Tony Abbott.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...d-file-meeting-wollongong/4995086?section=nsw





Shorten himself doesn't believe that, he is so weak people are embarrassed for him.


----------



## Calliope (3 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> But Abbotta sets up a "slush fund" does his damnedest to get legal advise on how to set it up in a way that he wont have to provide any info to the AEC, lies about it, pays the legal costs for someone who PURGERS themselves, and then says "There are some things the public has no particular right to know."




I am not too sure what PURGERS are but I think they are things which cause people to evacuate their bowels. I am at a loss to know why such an action would incur legal costs. I don't see why "Abbotta" would think that "the public has no particular right to know" about these faecal issues...but then I don't think they would want to.


----------



## MrBurns (3 October 2013)

Just watching Shorten on Lateline he's just hopeless.

Not only won't he be leader they would be wise to move him out of the party altogether.


----------



## sydboy007 (4 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> I am not too sure what PURGERS are but I think they are things which cause people to evacuate their bowels. I am at a loss to know why such an action would incur legal costs. I don't see why "Abbotta" would think that "the public has no particular right to know" about these faecal issues...but then I don't think they would want to.




I suppose along the lines of your Nouse to nouse eh???

I suspect the majority know what I meant.  Do you have to be the spelling nazi all the time.  It really does add no value.

You get another :topic


----------



## Logique (4 October 2013)

Striking shearers met under the Tree of Knowledge in Barcaldine in 1891. 

122 years on, I doubt that Bill Shorten is who they had in mind as the latter day expression of their movement. Or Bernie Riordan. Or Bob Carr.


----------



## sydboy007 (4 October 2013)

Logique said:


> Striking shearers met under the Tree of Knowledge in Barcaldine in 1891.
> 
> 122 years on, I doubt that Bill Shorten is who they had in mind as the latter day expression of their movement. Or Bernie Riordan. Or Bob Carr.




Menzies would probably be horrified at what the Liberal party represents today.

We're pretty much shafted by the sad lack of talent in the political gene pool these days.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 October 2013)

Logique said:


> Striking shearers met under the Tree of Knowledge in Barcaldine in 1891.
> 
> 122 years on, I doubt that Bill Shorten is who they had in mind as the latter day expression of their movement. Or Bernie Riordan. Or Bob Carr.




They would be absolutely gutted.

Let's hope a new Workers' Party arises from all the politically correct nonsense that is the modern ALP.

gg


----------



## Calliope (5 October 2013)

The promiscuous Shorten has been in an out of many beds with anyone he can use in his quest for power.


----------



## Logique (5 October 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Menzies would probably be horrified at what the Liberal party represents today.
> We're pretty much shafted by the sad lack of talent in the political gene pool these days.



Nice try Syd. 

Menzies would be very proud of Tony Abbott. Borrowing from the American idiom, Abbott has the 'right stuff'. 

Abbott stands for Australian values. Not those of failed European social democracies, like Gillard, Swan and Shorten. PM Abbott will keep the national books in the black.


----------



## dutchie (7 October 2013)

This bloke has to cheat even in a two horse race.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...anthony-albanese/story-fn59niix-1226726831444

ALP leader material - yes

PM material - a definite no!


----------



## MrBurns (7 October 2013)

Logique said:


> Nice try Syd.
> 
> Menzies would be very proud of Tony Abbott. Borrowing from the American idiom, Abbott has the 'right stuff'.
> 
> Abbott stands for Australian values. Not those of failed European social democracies, like Gillard, Swan and Shorten. PM Abbott will keep the national books in the black.




+1


----------



## dutchie (13 October 2013)

Six years of crap (by two narcissists) and then a shellacking at the elections and now another narcissist endorsed by the faceless men.

Labor has not learned a thing!


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

dutchie said:


> Six years of crap (by two narcissists) and then a shellacking at the elections and now another narcissist endorsed by the faceless men.
> 
> Labor has not learned a thing!




Spot on, this will ensure they stay in opposition for a very long time.


----------



## DB008 (13 October 2013)

dutchie said:


> Six years of crap (by two narcissists) and then a shellacking at the elections and now another narcissist endorsed by the faceless men.
> 
> Labor has not learned a thing!




Yep. Spot on. 

Just have a look at this idiot...LOL LOL LOL...


----------



## overhang (13 October 2013)

Labor need to scrap this method, if you really want to see party chaos then imagine when the majority of the caucus want one leader but the other is appointed because the greater majority of party members want the other.  

I don't believe Shorten is PM material,  I'm always cautious of anyone who comes from the union movement and it concerns me what he could do to productivity if he were PM.  Statistically Labor will be in opposition for at least 6 years so there will be plenty of time to see.


----------



## Calliope (13 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Spot on, this will ensure they stay in opposition for a very long time.




Yes. Here is a guy who has set very low ethical and moral standards for himself, but which are apparently acceptable to the Caucas.  
	

		
			
		

		
	




I suppose that after Rudd and Gillard they thought they may as well go the whole hog.The Coalition frontbench will have no trouble baiting King Rat.


----------



## noco (13 October 2013)

Due to the circumstances involving the relationship between Shorten and Ms Byrce (GG), the GG offered her resignation to Tony Abbott today.

Abbott rejected her resignation as she has until March 2014 to compltete her term of office.

A nice gesture on behalf of Abbott


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

noco said:


> Due to the circumstances involving the relationship between Shorten and Ms Byrce (GG), the GG offered her resignation to Tony Abbott today.
> 
> Abbott rejected her resignation as she has until March 2014 to compltete her term of office.
> 
> A nice gesture on behalf of Abbott




Yes it also reflects the respect in which she is held.


----------



## noco (13 October 2013)

noco said:


> Due to the circumstances involving the relationship between Shorten and Ms Byrce (GG), the GG offered her resignation to Tony Abbott today.
> 
> Abbott rejected her resignation as she has until March 2014 to compltete her term of office.
> 
> A nice gesture on behalf of Abbott




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...labor-leadership/story-fnihslxi-1226739150956


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

noco said:


> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...labor-leadership/story-fnihslxi-1226739150956




Just saw him on the news, what a worm of a man, why do we have to put up with this rubbish from the ALP. Rudd then Gillard then Rudd now this.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (13 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Spot on, this will ensure they stay in opposition for a very long time.




Well said, Burnsie.

gg


----------



## Macquack (13 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Just saw him on the news, what a worm of a man, why do we have to put up with this rubbish from the ALP. Rudd then Gillard then Rudd now this.




What are you going on about Burns?

It is obvious to all that you would never be happy with *any Labor leader*, so butt out.


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

Macquack said:


> What are you going on about Burns?
> 
> It is obvious to all that you would never be happy with *any Labor leader*, so butt out.




Yes it is true quacka that it would be extremely difficult to find a leader from among such unworthy incompetent and underhand types but Albanese looks like a shining beacon of leadership compared to that cheating turncoat liar and general all round pigs **** that is Bill Shorten.


----------



## drsmith (13 October 2013)

40% in favour of Bill Shorten from the party membership.

Either Labor's not even listening to its own or Bill's the sacrificial lamb.


----------



## wayneL (13 October 2013)

Macquack said:


> What are you going on about Burns?
> 
> It is obvious to all that you would never be happy with *any Labor leader*, so butt out.




Because all the Labour folk with any honour have resigned.... just warlords, thugs and Fabian brownshirts left over.


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> 40% in favour of Bill Shorten from the party membership.
> 
> Either Labor's not even listening to its own or Bill's the sacrificial lamb.




I can hardly wait for Rudd to mount a challenge....


----------



## wayneL (13 October 2013)

The most comical line from anyone Labor for decades: (via Twitter)

Shorten says he wants people to vote for Labor because they know "we have good ideas and understand their needs".by zoe.smith 3:06 PM

ROTFLMAO


----------



## MrBurns (13 October 2013)

wayneL said:


> The most comical line from anyone Labor for decades: (via Twitter)
> 
> Shorten says he wants people to vote for Labor because they know "we have good ideas and understand their needs".by zoe.smith 3:06 PM
> 
> ROTFLMAO




He'll be lucky to survive the week.
Ha they're stuck with him now for a while but he'll stuff up sooner rather than later......let's face it he's not very smart.


----------



## DB008 (14 October 2013)

I put up an argument on Reddit regarding Shorten not the right person the lead the ALP.

This is the reply I got...



> His union background is precisely the reason for why we need him. We need someone to fight back against the corporate bastards.
> I would have preferred Albo though.




This is how the younger generation is thinking


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I can hardly wait for Rudd to mount a challenge....



It wouldn't surprise me if with one hand he voted for Bill and with the other is sharpening the axe.

There's still an old score there to settle.


----------



## Logique (14 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Yes it also reflects the respect in which she is held.



I wasn't initially a fan, but the GG has been very disciplined.

Bill Shorten - I noticed in the interview afterwards, he was straight into that sing-song scripted and rehearsed patter, so characteristic of Labor leaders. The rank and file wanted Albanese. Labor still gripped by the dead hand of the unions.


----------



## noco (14 October 2013)

I am sure Shorten will be a great asset for the coalition fo some time to come.


----------



## MrBurns (14 October 2013)

noco said:


> I am sure Shorten will be a great asset for the coalition fo some time to come.




Yes the mealy mouthed little backstabber is fooling no one , Labor are finished.


----------



## Whiskers (14 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> 40% in favour of Bill Shorten from the party membership.




That is the key point out of all this... but then to only achieve the collective vote of 52%, I'd think most people in senior management would appreciate the difficulty of trying to run an organisation without strong ground floor support and resign as a mark of appreciating the core mandate for a leader of people.

He's going to go the same way as Gillard for a very simple reason... his personal ego is bigger than his political sense. 



> Either Labor's not even listening to its own or Bill's the sacrificial lamb.




Not sacrificial lambs... Bill and his cohorts are suicidal lambs. Sacrificial implies 'dying' for a greater cause... Shorton is killing the Labor brand in an attempt to further his own cause.

The other concerning number is that only abt 74% of ballots from membership were supposedly returned and counted. I'd like to see an audit of that to confirm that the old fashioned vote rigging from the union days, which Shorton is very familiar, hasn't returned.  

Maybe members of political parties can enlighten me here, but doesn't that turnout sound a bit low... especially for a party so gripped in leadership controversy? I mean when deeply contentious issues come up in an organisation you pay membership for, it's a natural tendency for them to want to have their say.  

The bottom line, Shorton is not PM material.

He can only lead when others accept him as their leader, and he has only as much authority as his subjects give to him... his subjects, the grass roots, give him a 4 out of 10... that ain't authority!

And to finish on a psychology note;

“Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” 
― Peter F. Drucker​


----------



## Julia (14 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Shorton is killing the Labor brand in an attempt to further his own cause.



What do you mean?


----------



## Knobby22 (14 October 2013)

I actually think Shorten will be good for Labor as he knows how to argue sensitively.
He will argue the case well as an opposition leader which will ensure the Libs don't take the voters for granted.

I think the Drucker quote suits him.

“Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” 
― Peter F. Drucker

If you look at his record in parliament, it is pretty good, particularly compared to most of the others. There were no panic policies and the other crazy stuff such as what we saw from Gillard and Rudd.

And remember, it was the ones who knew him best who voted for him.


----------



## wayneL (14 October 2013)

Well, I was prepared to give him some time, with the odd disparagement, just to keep my typing fingers honed. 

But with his insistence on fighting our Tones on the carbon rip-off, he's lost me. As far as I'm concerned he has proven himself an imbecilic douchebag... An idiot of the highest order, not worthy of the oxygen he robs from the rest of us.

No brain, no honour.


----------



## Whiskers (14 October 2013)

Julia said:


> What do you mean?




The labor grass roots (brand) punished the parliamentary party ivia the ballot box for bad tax policy, back room faction deals and leadership turmoil.

Forget about the caucus vote, they are part of the problem as evidenced by the faithful deserting them at the ballot box. 

The message in the membership numbers clearly indicates the Labor 'brand' disowned Gillard and warmed back to Rudd... and even further warmed on news of getting more say in the party. 



> The surge in new membership after it was declared Rudds leadership ballot rule changes would apply caught my attention. It is conceivable that as widely represented, a surge in labor membership wanting to get involved in a transforming more accountable party was the reason. But, given Shortens union history and the unaudited way ballots and branches were and arguably still are stacked, there must be some doubt in the 74% turnout figure.
> 
> There are 43,823 party members eligible to vote via postal ballot to elect the leader. Although membership dipped during the final year of Julia Gillard's prime ministership, it surged when Kevin Rudd returned as prime minister.
> 
> ...




Shorten and his key followers was clearly a substantial part of everything the membership disowned... to the extent they would resign from the party.

How on earth he expects to win the support of swing voters when he cannot even command a majority, not even a healthy minority of his own party is evidence of his egotism, impulsive, unforseen political suicide... not sacrificial, because the party will rebuild after he is gone.

At the risk of being branded a Rudd fan again, I would point out my commentary is from a tactical, psychological, coach perspective. For a strong government we need a strong opposition of keep account. Neither side of politics is immune from this problem. 

While Rudd certainly had some bad policies and made mistakes, his integrity in the face of his party faithful was never badly damaged. The main reason for that was and still is, his passionate loyalty to the notion of popular leadership, as opposed to the back room faction stacking and deal making in the face of and against the wishes of the party faithful. The explanation could be akin to preferring their bus to be driven by a passive drunk they like and can persuade to some extent, than an aggressive drunk they don't like and won't listen to them.

Further cause for concern now that Shorten has the wheel is Labor's national president Jenny McAllister...



> Some inside Labor are debating whether or not to enfranchise the one million union members affiliated to the party, adding a third component to the leadership electoral college. Union members are given a vote in the elections of the British and New Zealand Labour Party leaders.
> 
> "There is an ongoing role for unions in the party," says McAllister.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-move-on-leader/story-fnbcok0h-1226733816353#




Dare I say it, Shorten and his caucus associates couldn't fuel the ground for another Rudd comeback better if they tried.

Insult the intelligence and wishes of your grass roots to this extent, especially if it transpires there is any irregularity in the vote or attempt to undermine grass roots wishes by empowering Shortens union mates... then there is only one inevitable result.

This is looking a lot like fate setting up a membership presidential style voting system that may eventually spread to government.


----------



## Whiskers (14 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> I actually think Shorten will be good for Labor as he knows how to argue sensitively.




Isn't there a contradiction there Knobby? 

I agree he can be persuasive, but sensitive... about as sensitive as a snake oil salesman!



> I think the Drucker quote suits him.
> 
> “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.”
> ― Peter F. Drucker




He certainly gets in the face of the media to try to saturate that view, but wait until he has to weather some critique from the other side and see what dirty linen gets exposed. 



> If you look at his record in parliament, it is pretty good, particularly compared to most of the others. There were no panic policies and the other crazy stuff such as what we saw from Gillard and Rudd.




But he has unspoken policies none the less... and talking about crazy... wasn't his switching to Gillard the key to all their troubles. He didn't speak out against the badly designed taxes so he shares ownership with that.

As manager of the largest faction, he certainly didn't get that right.



> And remember, it was the ones who knew him best who voted for him.




I presume you mean in caucus. 

That's the really crazy part... pretending a corrupt caucus is in the best interests of the party... pretending to be labor leader with 40% of membership first preference is not the right thing.


----------



## Julia (14 October 2013)

Interesting observations, Whiskers.  Thanks for the response.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> I agree he can be persuasive, but sensitive... about as sensitive as a snake oil salesman!




Well we shall see. 



Whiskers said:


> I presume you mean in caucus.
> 
> That's the really crazy part... pretending a corrupt caucus is in the best interests of the party... pretending to be labor leader with 40% of membership first preference is not the right thing.




Well Lib Prime Ministers are voted 100% by the caucus. 

Would you have the branches having all the choices?
Imagine if they wanted to vote Kevin back in.....what a horrible thought!


----------



## Knobby22 (14 October 2013)

wayneL said:


> Well, I was prepared to give him some time, with the odd disparagement, just to keep my typing fingers honed.
> 
> But with his insistence on fighting our Tones on the carbon rip-off, he's lost me. As far as I'm concerned he has proven himself an imbecilic douchebag... An idiot of the highest order, not worthy of the oxygen he robs from the rest of us.
> .




It's the only stick he has at present and he is getting hit so has to fight back. 
He knows the Tories have to drop the ball on this one as they won't have the cash. 
He needs to get other directions though but I don't think TA will throw him a bone. TA is actually acting quite measured which is pleasing.


----------



## noco (14 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> I actually think Shorten will be good for Labor as he knows how to argue sensitively.
> He will argue the case well as an opposition leader which will ensure the Libs don't take the voters for granted.
> 
> I think the Drucker quote suits him.
> ...




But it won't matter with Shorten because if he hasn't heard something whether it is right or wrong, he will still agree with it.
Anyone that takes him for a fool is no mug.


----------



## Whiskers (14 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> Well Lib Prime Ministers are voted 100% by the caucus.




True, but they... and even past Labor leaders... have done a better job of keeping true to the grass root policy wishes.



> Would you have the branches having all the choices?




Not the branches, straight from the horses mouth... the membership. There is still a degree of branch stacking and candidate stacking, even in the Libs. 

Why not the membership having all the say in voting rights on leadership?


----------



## Julia (14 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> It's the only stick he has at present and he is getting hit so has to fight back.
> He knows the Tories have to drop the ball on this one as they won't have the cash.



Sorry if I'm being a bit dense on the above, but what does the government especially need cash for?

Seems to me Abbott et al are doing two things at present:

1.  putting Clive Palmer in his place by implying they're uninterested in whether or not PUP will support the repeal of the carbon tax, at least at this stage, by making it clear they're quite prepared to go to a DD on this, thus exposing Clive Palmer's unattractive threats for what they are - more egocentric grandstanding.

2.  making the opposition accountable for any stand they take on maintaining the carbon tax, regardless of the reality that they achieved only about a third of the vote in an election where the carbon tax repeal was front and centre.

Re Bill Shorten's election as leader, I 've simply never understood why anyone would consider him leadership material in the first place.  He looks insignificant and he sounds the same, with his somewhat prissy way of speaking.

Already, just hours after the announcement of deputy and members of the shadow front bench, various Labor members are publicly shouting their disaffection with the process and the results, notably Anna Burke who seems somewhat more than a little miffed at being passed over.  They just can't seem to help themselves with the infighting.


----------



## MrBurns (15 October 2013)

I thought Rudd was prissy but I think the lisping Shorten outdoes him....almost.

He's in big trouble already, I never thought I'd like Anna Burke but good on her.

Shorten is already backstabbing his way through his term as Labor leader.


----------



## sptrawler (15 October 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I thought Rudd was prissy but I think the lisping Shorten outdoes him....almost.
> 
> He's in big trouble already, I never thought I'd like Anna Burke but good on her.
> 
> Shorten is already backstabbing his way through his term as Labor leader.




Interesting that Labor insiders call him "showbag Bill", apparently they think he is all front and no substance.

It will be interesting to see if it proves correct, we may well end up with Tanya and Penny in charge.lol


----------



## Knobby22 (15 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Sorry if I'm being a bit dense on the above, but what does the government especially need cash for?
> 
> Seems to me Abbott et al are doing two things at present:
> 
> ...




I was referring to the alternate plan - direct action. The Libs won't be able to afford this.
I agree the infighting in the Labor party is pathetic. In fact many of their parliamentarians are pathetic. They need urgent reform if they ever want to get back in power.
I don't think he sounds prissy. Maybe it's the Melbourne accent?

- - - Updated - - -



sptrawler said:


> Interesting that Labor insiders call him "showbag Bill", apparently they think he is all front and no substance.




Have you a source for this?


----------



## MrBurns (15 October 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting that Labor insiders call him "showbag Bill", apparently they think he is all front and no substance.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if it proves correct, we may well end up with Tanya and Penny in charge.lol




Not sure when the next polls are out but they will be interesting.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2013)

Listing to the ABC's AM this morning, one gets the impression Stephen Conroy is still throwing around the red underpants, if only within the walls of Labor.


----------



## IFocus (15 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> I actually think Shorten will be good for Labor as he knows how to argue sensitively.
> He will argue the case well as an opposition leader which will ensure the Libs don't take the voters for granted.
> 
> I think the Drucker quote suits him.
> ...




Good summary Knobby it was Shorten who got the NDIS up but can he be an effective opposition leader remains to be seen....toughest job in the parliament bar none.

- - - Updated - - -



Knobby22 said:


> I was referring to the alternate plan - direct action. The Libs won't be able to afford this.
> I agree the infighting in the Labor party is pathetic. In fact many of their parliamentarians are pathetic. They need urgent reform if they ever want to get back in power.
> I don't think he sounds prissy. Maybe it's the Melbourne accent?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -




There is also some problems around the timing of repealing the tax money wise either way the Coalition will have to burn some one along the way likely to be tax payers I suspect.

- - - Updated - - -



drsmith said:


> Listing to the ABC's AM this morning, one gets the impression Stephen Conroy is still throwing around the red underpants, if only within the walls of Labor.





Conroy is a major factional player and always been a divisive one he will be a problem child.


----------



## Julia (15 October 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> I
> I don't think he sounds prissy. Maybe it's the Melbourne accent?



No, nothing at all to do with accent.  It's the tone of voice I'm referring to.  Timbre:  here's an explanation:


> Sounds may be generally characterized by pitch, loudness, and quality. Sound "quality" or "timbre" describes those characteristics of sound which allow the ear to distinguish sounds which have the same pitch and loudness. Timbre is then a general term for the distinguishable characteristics of a tone. Timbre is mainly determined by the harmonic content of a sound and the dynamic characteristics of the sound such as vibrato and the attack-decay envelope of the sound.



If that all sounds rather too esoteric, consider the difference between, just as one example, listening to Bill Shorten or listening to Malcolm Turnbull.  The first voice is light, without distinction, and lacks stress on various words to enhance meaning.
Mr Turnbull, on the other hand, has a mellifluous, well modulated, quite deep voice, and understands how to deliver meaning in his vocal message.

It might sound irrelevant, but we form much of our impression of people by their appearance and their presentation, very much including their voices.
Others might view him quite differently, of course, but to me my overall impression of Mr Shorten is one of slightness, smallness, insignificance, born out by his voice.  That might be to entirely misjudge his hitherto hidden magnificence.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 October 2013)

Julia said:


> That might be to entirely misjudge his hitherto hidden magnificence.




Lol


----------



## bigdog (1 December 2013)

http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...l-in-1986-victorian-police-are-investigating/

Grubby report about Bill!


----------



## dutchie (1 December 2013)

bigdog said:


> http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...l-in-1986-victorian-police-are-investigating/
> 
> Grubby report about Bill!




Or ...

Report about grubby Bill!


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2013)

bigdog said:


> http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...l-in-1986-victorian-police-are-investigating/
> 
> Grubby report about Bill!




If it proves to be true, it would certainly pale Tony's wall punching  episode into insignificance.


----------



## MrBurns (5 December 2013)

Shorten on 730 was asked by Leigh Sales about the $106m Qantas paid in Carbon Taxes last year and why he says it had no effect on their bottom line, he replied he asked Alan Joyce and he said is didn't, what a load of crap, how can a $106m tax have no effect on your bottom line, Shorten then went on to criticize Abbott for politicising the issue THEN proceeded to knock the Govt and politicise the issue at length.

He is an unconvincing lightweight and an incompetent useless lying parasite leading a party of like persons, one hopes he never becomes PM.

He has absolutely no intellect, I really don't know how he got so far.


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2013)

MrBurns said:


> He has absolutely no intellect, I really don't know how he got so far.



He supported his PM like he supported Labor's own budget cuts.


----------



## MrBurns (5 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> He supported his PM like he supported Labor's own budget cuts.





If only it was as hard to get into politics as it is to get on to the board of Australia's largest companies.


----------



## Joe Blow (5 December 2013)

Posts containing insults deleted. Any more, and I'll be issuing infractions.

Back on topic please.


----------



## MrBurns (5 December 2013)

Joe Blow said:


> Posts containing insults deleted. Any more, and I'll be issuing infractions.
> 
> Back on topic please.




I only defend, never attack


----------



## Joe Blow (5 December 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I only defend, never attack




But you do deliberately provoke, as in your post above. Discuss the topic at hand without the unnecessary provocation please.


----------



## MrBurns (5 December 2013)

Joe Blow said:


> But you do deliberately provoke, as in your post above. Discuss the topic at hand without the unnecessary provocation please.




If I'm deliberately provoked or insulted I will respond in kind.


----------



## Joe Blow (5 December 2013)

MrBurns said:


> If I'm deliberately provoked or insulted I will respond in kind.




So what was it, exactly, that provoked this remark?



MrBurns said:


> He is an unconvincing lightweight and *an incompetent useless lying parasite leading a party of like persons*, one hopes he never becomes PM.


----------



## MrBurns (5 December 2013)

Joe Blow said:


> So what was it, exactly, that provoked this remark?




Joe, that remark of mine was aimed at the supporters of the ALP not at any ASF member, there's a difference.

In fact not even that it was aimed at the ALP itself.


----------



## Joe Blow (5 December 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Joe, that remark of mine was aimed at the supporters of the ALP not at any ASF member, there's a difference.




As far as I'm concerned it refers to any ASF member who happens to be an ALP member or supporter.

Lift your game please. There's no need for that kind of unnecessary provocation, and I won't be dragging this thread any further off topic by continuing to discuss the issue. I've made my point.

Now... back on topic.


----------



## trainspotter (6 December 2013)

During the Beaconsfield mine collapse, Shorten, in his role as National Secretary of the AWU, the union representing the miners, played a prominent role as negotiator and commentator on developments in the immediate aftermath and the ensuing rescue operations. The mine rescue operations drew mass national media coverage, and raised Shorten's political profile ahead of the 2007 election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shorten

The GG seems to think he is good enough to marry her daughter so why not let him have a crack at PM?


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Shorten on 730 was asked by Leigh Sales about the $106m Qantas paid in Carbon Taxes last year and why he says it had no effect on their bottom line, he replied he asked Alan Joyce and he said is didn't, what a load of crap, how can a $106m tax have no effect on your bottom line, Shorten then went on to criticize Abbott for politicising the issue THEN proceeded to knock the Govt and politicise the issue at length.
> .




Strange that the SMH doesn't make mention of the carbon tax impost on Qantas and their $300m loss.


----------



## noco (6 February 2014)

Poor little Billy.....He must be battered and bruised after Howes got to him.

I hope Howes has a good body guard....if he hasn't, I hope his life insurance policy is paid up.

And the infighting between the Labor Party and the unions goes on unabated.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...n/comments/shorten_pays_the_price_of_ratting/


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2014)

Shorten and Wong are losing credibility fast, as is the Labor party.
Blind Freddy can see that we have an issue that is going to result in a wage rationalisation, or a massive fall in the $Aus.IMO


----------



## noco (7 February 2014)

One could say Bill Shorten is partly to blame for his instigation of additional benefits to employees at SPC Ardmona.

It certainly has not helped in the profitability of the company.

Nevertheless, Coca Cola Amatil should be responsible for bailing out SPC and not the governmsent.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ditions-campaign/story-fn59noo3-1226820508625


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2014)

Shorten is having a bad dose, of feeling he needs to say something.

He would be better advised following the advice, "if you have nothing intelligent to say, don't say anything". 
Only my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2014)

It would appear even Laurie, is worried for Bill and what might rear its head in a Royal Commission.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...ry-fni0fha6-1226821046741?from=herald+sun_rss

I tend to think Gillard and Swan, broke any gentlemans agreements between the parties, looks like'game on'.lol


----------



## noco (7 February 2014)

There does not appear to be any love lost between Shorten and Howes.

Could be a bit of pay back as Howes was rejected in his bid to replace Senator Carr.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ter-what-he-says/story-fn53lw5p-1226820012647


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2014)

The constant crap Labor dished out on Abbott was allways a double sided sword.

One has to be carefull, their own backyard is in order, before departing on a protracted attack on your opposition.

Well guess what, after six years of attacking the 'mad monk' and not finding any dirt, the shoe is on the other foot.

I hope the protagonists, can take the same scrutiny.

It's just great to watch the hunter become the hunted, reality t.v.lol


----------



## noco (10 February 2014)

I really do not know what Shorten and the Labor Party have to 'crow' about in their win in the Griffith by-election.

Once regarded as the safest Labor seat in Queensland with a margin og 16% some years ago to now a marginal seat of just 2,27%.

There was a swing aginst Labor of 5.5% in 2010.......3.8% in 2013.......and .074% in 2014. 

I think Shorten should be more concerned than gloating....but typical of Shorten he had to say the people of Griffith had sent a storng message to Abbott.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ffith-byelection/story-fn59niix-1226822054608


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

Bill Shorten for Prime Minister?????????.......I don't think so after today's poll.

Watch your back Billy.............they will be coming to get you.......Pauly is on the side lines watching you.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-rating-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226823065937


----------



## noco (15 February 2014)

Has this bloke Shorten been educated.....He seems to be a bit thick in the scull and is not listening to what Abbott is trying to tell him.

Shorten wants a plan of recovery to overcome the mess he, Gillard and Rudd have left the coalition......He has been given a plan but won't accept it......I mean....what is wrong this dim wit?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ertainly-has-one/story-e6frgd0x-1226827608591


----------



## wayneL (15 February 2014)

Short'un is probably the most duplicitous politician ever, from any side noco.


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

wayneL said:


> Short'un is probably the most duplicitous politician ever, from any side noco.



Watching a bit of Parliament this week, it's clear his heart's not in it.

He knows that politically he's damaged goods and he's there just to keep the seat warm, most likely for Tanya Plibersek.


----------



## noco (15 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Watching a bit of Parliament this week, it's clear his heart's not in it.
> 
> He knows that politically he's damaged goods and he's there just to keep the seat warm, most likely for Tanya Plibersek.




Geez Doc, she is just as bad......She is also married an ex crim who has done time in the "jug".


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

noco said:


> Geez Doc, she is just as bad......She is also married an ex crim who has done time in the "jug".



I'm anticipating it as a recycling of the gender card.

Such is the shallow politics that is modern Labor.


----------



## Macquack (15 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> I'm anticipating it as a recycling of the *gender card*.
> 
> Such is the shallow politics that is modern Labor.




Geez Smith, who is a male chauvinist pig?

The gender card you refer to represents 50% of the population.

What a strange concept that a woman be a leader of the opposition or even a Prime Minister.


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

Macquack said:


> Geez Smith, who is a male chauvinist pig?
> 
> The gender card you refer to represents 50% of the population.
> 
> What a strange concept that a woman be a leader of the opposition or even a Prime Minister.



It got Labor over the line (sort of) in 2010, but when it came to 2013.............................

Michaelia Cash summed it up nicely.



It won't get Labor over the line in 2016.


----------



## sptrawler (15 February 2014)

Macquack said:


> Geez Smith, who is a male chauvinist pig?
> 
> The gender card you refer to represents 50% of the population.
> 
> What a strange concept that a woman be a leader of the opposition or even a Prime Minister.




Unfortunately, Julia has put paid to the chances of another woman rising to the top position any time soon, on either side of politics.IMO 

She even scared her closest supporters, they shoved the knife in before she completed a full term, remember.

It was heave ho, way to go, we are the Labor shockers.lol


----------



## Macquack (15 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> It got Labor over the line (sort of) in 2010, but when it came to 2013.............................
> 
> Michaelia Cash summed it up nicely.
> 
> It won't get Labor over the line in 2016.




What a load of nonsense.

You know as well as anybody that had Labor stuck with Rudd before the 2010 election, they would have romped it in (2010).

Who cares what gender the leader is? It should be about talent.

You are just perpetuating ignorance with your "gender card" comment.


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

Macquack said:


> You know as well as anybody that had Labor stuck with Rudd before the 2010 election, they would have romped it in (2010).



Is that everybody except the Labor Caucus ?



Macquack said:


> Who cares what gender the leader is? It should be about talent.



Both Rudd and Gillard failed in that regard and that was Labor's judgement.


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It was heave ho, way to go, we are the Labor shockers.lol



The Rudd/Gillard chapter of Labor history is one that even they want to forget.


----------



## sails (16 February 2014)

Macquack said:


> ...Who cares what gender the leader is? It should be about talent....





Totally agree.  If Gillard had shown talent, she wouldn't have been dumped by her own side, imo.   Nothing to do with gender.  Rudd was dumped because he had lost his way (according to Gillard).  I don't care which gender leads this country, but I do care that they do it efficiently and with good management skills.


----------



## noco (17 February 2014)

Look out Billy...Tanya's looking at your back with a knife in her hand......more blood on the floor of the Labor Party meeting room shortly me thinks.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/video/id-Z0djFwazo7sSjhZev5uIFTOO69GNNOHf


----------



## rumpole (17 February 2014)

Is Shorten PM material.

Not in my opinion. Nor is Tanya. I think the Labor members got it right by picking Albanese, even though I think Bowen is a better long term option. Shorten might be a good operator behind the scenes, but he doesn't have any inspirational capacity and often seems to be confused about what he is about to say. But who knows, Abbott has the same lack of quality and look where he is.


----------



## noco (17 February 2014)

With Bill Shorten it is a case of monkey see, monkey do........He is following too much in the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd foot steps instead of looking for a new direction.

We all know Labor has left the Coalition with a terrible financial mess....we all all know factories are closing their doors because of increased costs and competition....we all know unemployment is rising.

So Bill instead of criticizing  Abbott for what is happeneing now due to Labor's errors, why don't you come up with Labor's plan to fix things. If you don't, you cannot claim to be an alternative government.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/whats-your-alternative/story-e6frg6z6-1226828672477


----------



## rumpole (17 February 2014)

noco said:


> With Bill Shorten it is a case of monkey see, monkey do........He is following too much in the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd foot steps instead of looking for a new direction.
> 
> We all know Labor has left the Coalition with a terrible financial mess....we all all know factories are closing their doors because of increased costs and competition....we all know unemployment is rising.
> 
> ...




I think Labor will keep low for a while until they can distance themselves from Rudd/Gillard, lay the blame more solidly on Abbott and then come up with a policy that at least looks different to the LNP. There is no point shooting their mouths off for at least 6 months, the unemployment rate is sure to seriously worsen this year.


----------



## noco (17 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I think Labor will keep low for a while until they can distance themselves from Rudd/Gillard, lay the blame more solidly on Abbott and then come up with a policy that at least looks different to the LNP. There is no point shooting their mouths off for at least 6 months, the unemployment rate is sure to seriously worsen this year.




Well, according to the Neilsen Poll over the weekend, Shorten and Labor are becoming lower than a rattle snakes belly....their percentage has dropped dramatically and close to the Gillard days of utter chaos.......It is all very well to sit back and say to Abbott, factories are closing.....unemployment is rising......what is your plan to save jobs.....and as Joe Hockey tried to explain to those idiots who sit opposite, "how can you turn the economy around on a two bob bit" unquote.


Voters are looking at a tired opposition already...they have no idea how to handle the economy....they never have and never will...they have gone to sleep at the wheel and are heading for the nearest lamp post.....if thay had any sense they should be coming up with some alternative ideas...that is what oppositions nornally do.


----------



## Julia (17 February 2014)

This poll is running under an article by Mark Kenny on the latest Neilsen results.
It's quite a good result for the government.

Poll: Do you approve of the way the Abbott government has dealt with SPC, Toyota and the royal commission into union corruption?

Yes. I completely agree with the government's approach:     53%

Partially. They've done some things right:     12%


No. They've completely missed the mark:   35%


----------



## rumpole (17 February 2014)

noco said:


> ....if thay had any sense they should be coming up with some alternative ideas...that is what oppositions nornally do.




Sure, but you'll find that they usually come out with the ideas around election time so the other mob doesn't hijack them. Give them about 3 years.


----------



## noco (19 February 2014)

There is no doubt Shorten knows plenty about Gillards activities......Bob KERNOHAN has ratted on him.

And this bloke wants to be Prime Minister????????????

Subject: " Shorten sweet"
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 19:05:04 +1000

Subject: “Shorten sweet"





 Media Statement from Bob Kernohan, former AWU President, Victoria Branch; following the  
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCEMENT OF A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO UNION CORRUPTION… 


“I congratulate PM ABBOTT on the announcement of a Royal Commission into corruption in trade unions. I am perplexed however at Bill Shorten’s opposition to theRoyal Commission and his claim that a police taskforce should investigate corruption in unions.  Bill Shorten knows a lot of the detail about Julia Gillard and Bruce Wilson’s corrupt activities involving the AWU because he was there at the time it happened; so was I! Bill Shorten has now had 18 years to go to the police if he was serious about helping police investigate corruption and he hasn’t lifted a finger.   So Bill, I can only think that you oppose a Royal Commission because you’re afraid of what it will report.
I recruited Bill Shorten into the AWU in 1992.  Bill was my campaign manager in AWU union elections for the leadership of the Victorian Branch.  My opponent was Bruce Wilson, whose de facto Julia Gillard was a partner at the AWU’s law firm Slater and Gordon. My bitter campaign against Wilson was focused on serious financial irregularities   in the union books. In 1996 the AWU General Secretary, Ian Cambridge, called for a royal commission into the AWU.  I supported Ian Cambridge at that time. 
Bill Shorten knew at least as much as I knew about the frauds - we discussed it at the time, but since then I’ve seen no positive actions at all from Bill to bring offenders to justice… in fact Bill's done just the opposite
Bill Shorten urged me to participate in the cover up - "think of your career, Bob” he said.   I know that Bill Shorten has not assisted either the Victoria Police or the WA Police to bring offenders to justice.   He did nothing as State Secretary in Victoria or as AWU National secretary in 2001 thru 2007.  He never called in the police to investigate. Bill Shorten chose to cover the fraud up; and to add insult to injury, he was a key player in installing Julia Gillard into the Lodge!
A Royal Commission where persons of interest are compelled to give sworn evidence is the only way that corruption in unions will ever be fully exposed and people made to be accountable for their criminal actions.
I can be reached on 0438901594 and I am happy to talk on the record.”



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4335 / Virus Database: 3705/7094 - Release Date: 02/14/14


----------



## noco (19 February 2014)

As Janet Albrechtsen states....."THE HILL BILLIES ARE BACK IN TOWN."

So long as Shorten continues to aligns himself witH the GREENS and suck up to the unions, his position will eventually become untenable.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-to-fit-the-bill/story-e6frg7bo-1226830889674


----------



## rumpole (19 February 2014)

noco said:


> As Janet Albrechtsen states....."THE HILL BILLIES ARE BACK IN TOWN."




Janet Albrechtsen would say that


----------



## noco (19 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Janet Albrechtsen would say that




And so say all of us.


----------



## noco (20 February 2014)

Niki Savva sums up Bill Shorten very well.......He is weak and succumbs to the trade unions and the Greens too easlily.

I particularly like the comment by Jeff.......It confirms what I have been saying for years when the trade unions were dominated by communist militant trade unions and their policy then, was to ruin the ecomomy of Australia. Gillard and Rudd almost did the same.

Jeff 5ptsFeatured
36 minutes agoThe ACTU franchises have demolished this country in their attempt to run with world wide socialism. It began really in the late 60s and 70s when tariffs were dropped and we were told it would be good for us. Well may be it is so and yes we should as a nation be able to compete with the world but no-one told the ACTU that their workers also had to compete and produce less costs = less pay and less special conditions. The ACTU have been the major source of Labor politicians and the dysfunctional liars and belligerent power brokers became the ruling party. It's time to clean them all out for the next 50 years. 




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...tface-to-survive/story-fnahw9xv-1226831965646


----------



## rumpole (20 February 2014)

noco said:


> Niki Savva sums up Bill Shorten very well.......He is weak and succumbs to the trade unions and the Greens too easlily.




The influence of the unions in the ALP is too high, just as the influence of big business in the Liberal party is too high. Neither of them can claim to represent mainstream Australia, the ordinary mums and dads. Same for the Greens.

 Unfortunately we are stuck with all of the parties. The only people who can claim to represent their electorates are those who actually have to fight for their seats at a personal level; the Independents. 

Clive Palmer is not an Independent as he is now a Party.


----------



## noco (22 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> The influence of the unions in the ALP is too high, just as the influence of big business in the Liberal party is too high. Neither of them can claim to represent mainstream Australia, the ordinary mums and dads. Same for the Greens.
> 
> Unfortunately we are stuck with all of the parties. The only people who can claim to represent their electorates are those who actually have to fight for their seats at a personal level; the Independents.
> 
> Clive Palmer is not an Independent as he is now a Party.




So lets support communism and the other two parties won't be allowed exist....problem solved.....No democracy....no freedom of speech.....no greedy corrupt unions and business....lower wages....no more penalty rates....do as you are told or else......speak out against the Government and go directly to jail and don't collect any money on the way.

Yeah...the way to go.


----------



## rumpole (22 February 2014)

noco said:


> So lets support communism and the other two parties won't be allowed exist....problem solved.....No democracy....no freedom of speech.....no greedy corrupt unions and business....lower wages....no more penalty rates....do as you are told or else......speak out against the Government and go directly to jail and don't collect any money on the way.
> 
> Yeah...the way to go.




Taken your medications this morning ?

What a load of gibberish.


----------



## noco (22 February 2014)

Bill Shorten is leading himself and his Party down the path of self destruction and does not seem to have learnt any lessons.

His popularity, together with his Party are going down on a slippery slide and at the rate he is going will meet Gillard's popularity at the bottom.

He appears to have adopted the strong stand that he will gain popularity by knocking the Abbott Governement at every opportunity. Blame the Government for the loss of jobs....blame the Governemnt for not giving hand outs to unviable business......trying hard to stop the Royal commission into corrupt unions.

His actions are speaking  loud and clear among voters and that is they don't like what he is doing.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-it-down-the-pub/story-e6frg75f-1226834168184


----------



## noco (22 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Taken your medications this morning ?
> 
> What a load of gibberish.




Rumpole....I am being facetious......I am in a mischievious mood just to get you going for the day.

I thought I might go fishing this morning and I did......I just caught a flat head with a dead prawn.


----------



## rumpole (22 February 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpole....I am being facetious......I am in a mischievious mood just to get you going for the day.
> 
> I thought I might go fishing this morning and I did......I just caught a flat head with a dead prawn.




Good oh then

Have a nice day


----------



## noco (22 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> The influence of the unions in the ALP is too high, just as the influence of big business in the Liberal party is too high. Neither of them can claim to represent mainstream Australia, the ordinary mums and dads. Same for the Greens.




The influence of big business in the Liberal Party??????????????

Funny you know I have been hearing and reading a lot about big busiiness not getting anymore hand outs from the Abbott Government....Only Labor gives hand outs to big busness......Ford...Holden....Toyota....SPC....So I guess that sort of knocks your argument for "SIX".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 February 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpole....I am being facetious......I am in a mischievious mood just to get you going for the day.
> 
> I thought I might go fishing this morning and I did......I just caught a flat head with a dead prawn.




The fishing analogy is moot, noco.

Bill Shorten is like an ole flathead with much burley and bait in the water, awaiting to be hooked and landed. 

He had much promise, but his present poor performance, and future problems, make me think he is for the eskie.

Eskie Bill, I would call him.

gg


----------



## rumpole (22 February 2014)

noco said:


> The influence of big business in the Liberal Party??????????????
> 
> Funny you know I have been hearing and reading a lot about big busiiness not getting anymore hand outs from the Abbott Government....Only Labor gives hand outs to big busness......Ford...Holden....Toyota....SPC....So I guess that sort of knocks your argument for "SIX".




Maybe Ford, Holden , Toyota and SPC didn't give enough 



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...porate-donations/story-e6freoof-1226567078508


----------



## noco (22 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Maybe Ford, Holden , Toyota and SPC didn't give enough
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...porate-donations/story-e6freoof-1226567078508




Well from that staement, one would decipher that those companies gave Labor plenty of subscriptions in return for hand outs.....Hmmmmmmm!!!! ....What do you think?


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2014)

Christopher Pyne serving it up to Bill Shorten in QT today.


----------



## noco (24 February 2014)

It is very evident, given the Leader of the Opposition recent performance, he is heading for self destruction and his position will be short lived.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...orten-believe-in/story-fni0ffxg-1226835284895


----------



## noco (25 February 2014)

It won't be long now......poor old Bill his life as Opposition leader will be short lived.

Who will replace him?



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...some-might-stick/story-fnihsr9v-1226836397331


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2014)

Bill clearly hasn't got the balls to get Stephen Conroy to apologise to Lieutenant General Angus Campbell. To make matters worse for himself, he had to apologise for this in relation to his defence of Stephen Conroy in Parliament yesterday,



> Trying to deflect attention from Senator Conroy's attack on General Campbell, Mr Shorten told the House on Wednesday: ''What I also know is that . . . when Chief of Army General Gillespie was at estimates it was Senator Ronaldson who called him a coward,'' during debate on a motion to admonish Senator Conroy.
> 
> ''I'm sure that, given his time again, Senator Ronaldson might have chosen his words differently,'' Mr Shorten said.




Bill couldn't substantiate this and at 7.26pm he was pack in the House to correct the record and apologise.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...defence-on-stephen-conroy-20140227-33jbi.html


----------



## Julia (27 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Bill clearly hasn't got the balls to get Stephen Conroy to apologise to Lieutenant General Angus Campbell.



Doesn't Conroy's power broker status in the Right mean that Shorten owes him in terms of Conroy supporting Shorten for the leadership?


----------



## IFocus (27 February 2014)

Julia said:


> Doesn't Conroy's power broker status in the Right mean that Shorten owes him in terms of Conroy supporting Shorten for the leadership?





Possibly, Conroy is a ruthless numbers player. 

Normally in parliament both sides will defend the indefensible.


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> Normally in parliament both sides will defend the indefensible.



The Gillard government got the gold with Craig Thompson.

Not satisfied with that, they also stole the silver from around the necks of the Libs with Peter Slipper.

That's 1-2 to Labor.


----------



## trainspotter (27 February 2014)

Ashby to get his day in the dock as appeal upheld. Look out Mr Slipper !



> "The inappropriate sexualised remarks were conveyed by Slipper. Ashby's responses were either to ignore them, rebuff them or attempt to change the subject."
> Outside the court, Mr Harmer said: "It is gratifying that the court found that I was treated unfairly and that the adverse findings made about me ought not to have been made.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ter-slipper-20140227-33kh0.html#ixzz2uVfBhuTG

Maybe Shorten needs another Beaconsfield mine collapse to re-energise his political career.


----------



## sydboy007 (27 February 2014)

His performance over Qantas, probably not.

He's as muddled as the Abbott Government on providing a consistent message.

We're heading for a recession in the next 12 months.  Even if the RBA brings in MP then provides us with ZIRP it still wont stop unemployment heading towards 8%.  The only way forward is to ensure everyone feels the pain of what's coming is being fairly shared.  Anything else will lead to resistance and a bigger downturn in the economy.


----------



## IFocus (27 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Gillard government got the gold with Craig Thompson.
> 
> Not satisfied with that, they also stole the silver from around the necks of the Libs with Peter Slipper.
> 
> That's 1-2 to Labor.





Fraid not senator Mal Colston gold medal..............


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> His performance over Qantas, probably not.
> 
> He's as muddled as the Abbott Government on providing a consistent message.
> 
> We're heading for a recession in the next 12 months.  Even if the RBA brings in MP then provides us with ZIRP it still wont stop unemployment heading towards 8%.  The only way forward is to ensure everyone feels the pain of what's coming is being fairly shared.  Anything else will lead to resistance and a bigger downturn in the economy.




I have to say Bill is not particularly assertive in Question Time. Neither is anyone else in Labor except perhaps Tony Burke.

 The answers from the government verge on ludicrous, eg Malcolm Turnbulls drama queen performance about Conroy, a subject which has nothing to do with his portfolio whatever.

 Tony Abbott does usually give calm and measured answers, even if they always say the same thing no matter what question was asked. I think people are getting sick of the same excuses about carbon tax, mining tax and stop the boats.


----------



## noco (28 February 2014)

At least one ex Labor MP member is exhibiting some common sense....what a shame he retired.

Martin Ferguson certainly won't be the best friend of Bill Shorten today.

Perhaps there are some current Labor MP's who think the same way but are scared to speak their minds in fear of being ostracized....oh yes they must follow party lines



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...r_free_our_workplaces_and_cut_the_subsidies_/


----------



## trainspotter (28 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> Fraid not senator Mal Colston gold medal..............




Graham Richardson anyone? Platinum right there !

http://pickeringpost.com/story/richo-leaps-to-awu-defence/2793


----------



## trainspotter (28 February 2014)

> But Mr Conroy and his boss, Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, appeared to be attempting to replicate another movie yesterday ”” Dumb and Dumber. Mr Shorten was forced to apologise to Minister for Veteran’s Affairs Michael Ronaldson after accusing him in parliament of calling another decorated officer a “coward” seven years ago. It is understood another Labor MP had told him just before he rose to speak on the matter that Mr Ronaldson had referred to former army chief General Ken Gillespie as a “coward.”




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-bungle-brothers/story-fni0xqrc-1226839986031


----------



## IFocus (28 February 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Graham Richardson anyone? Platinum right there !
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/story/richo-leaps-to-awu-defence/2793




Yeah no come back on that one


----------



## noco (2 March 2014)

Shorten and his union hacks just don't seem to savvy nor are they learning any lessons on the damage they keep doing to workers.......Haven't the unions done enough damage over the years....is it any wonder unemployment is rising and now the unions are talking about going on strike if Quantas sacks 5000.

I would like to see the unions trying to run a large corporation.....they would go broke in no time......Bob Hawke tried it some years ago and it did not take long for that venture fold......just can't remember the business for now. 



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...isbane-worksites/story-e6freon6-1226842525135


----------



## noco (2 March 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten and his union hacks just don't seem to savvy nor are they learning any lessons on the damage they keep doing to workers.......Haven't the unions done enough damage over the years....is it any wonder unemployment is rising and now the unions are talking about going on strike if Quantas sacks 5000.
> 
> I would like to see the unions trying to run a large corporation.....they would go broke in no time......Bob Hawke tried it some years ago and it did not take long for that venture fold......just can't remember the business for now.
> 
> ...






. Bourke's ACTU store, in central Melbourne, was a project of Bob Hawke as ACTU secretary. Hawke was strongly influenced by the corporatist Israeli Histadruth trade union federation, which is closely integrated with the Israeli state, and a large employer, running numerous co-operatives and holding companies in areas such as transportation and banking. The ACTU successfully used its link with Bourkes to challenge and break price controls imposed on retailers and the public by some large companies.

This all I could find on the Hawke venture......It does not state the year or how long it lasted......I do know it did not last too long and it was closed because of massive losses.


----------



## Miss Hale (2 March 2014)

Got himself into a pickle over the returning troops thanks to Stephen Conroy.  That bloke (Conroy) is a fool of the highest order, Shorten would do well to get rid of him.


----------



## noco (7 March 2014)

Shorten seems to have gotten himself into pickle by misrepresenting himself in Parliament with his web site.

He told parliament his web site was his own when in fact it is registered with the AWU.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/shorten_the_voice_of_the_awu/


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 March 2014)

I must admit to not studying Shorten closely, my impression is of "Unions and Girls", though this may be harsh, just my impression. 

Whether he can lead the ALP back to government is moot. We have been blessed with Prime Ministers of less talent than Bill.

Hawke and Fraser, come to mind. 

gg


----------



## noco (8 March 2014)

Bill Shortens future as the alternative Prime Minister is DOOMED.

His short run as Labor Leader is fast coming to an end but who will be the alternative?

Very little talent to be seen on the horizon. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-reinvent-itself/story-fnihsr9v-1226848535970


----------



## rumpole (8 March 2014)

noco said:


> Bill Shortens future as the alternative Prime Minister is DOOMED.
> 
> His short run as Labor Leader is fast coming to an end but who will be the alternative?
> 
> ...




When people find their overtime and penalty rates cut and they can't afford their mortgages and food any more, it will be Abbott that has to worry.


----------



## noco (8 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> When people find their overtime and penalty rates cut and they can't afford their mortgages and food any more, it will be Abbott that has to worry.




rumpole, people are already starting to feel the pinch from the past 6 years of HARD LABOR.

Higher union demands = higher costs = loss of jobs...I am sure there are plenty of people willing to work on weekends without the burden of penalty rates imposed upon certain industries. Many restaurants do not open on Sundays because of the high cost of wages.

If some people work a regular job 5 days per week Monday to Friday and then seek extra money from another employer to pay for their mortgages by working on weekends as well, are they really entitled to penalty rates on weekends?

It would be better to have a half a loaf of bread than no bread at all.

Jupiters Hotel/Casino Townsville have never paid weekend penalty rates since the place opened some 28 years ago.They operate 7 days a week and 18 hours a day.


----------



## rumpole (8 March 2014)

noco said:


> rumpole, people are already starting to feel the pinch from the past 6 years of HARD LABOR.
> 
> Higher union demands = higher costs = loss of jobs...I am sure there are plenty of people willing to work on weekends without the burden of penalty rates imposed upon certain industries. Many restaurants do not open on Sundays because of the high cost of wages.
> 
> ...




You may care to read this, also quoted in another thread

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...wages-blowout-of-an-inflexible-market/5305998

It seems that HARD LABOR has left us with a flexible labour market after all.


----------



## IFocus (8 March 2014)

noco said:


> Bill Shortens future as the alternative Prime Minister is DOOMED.
> 
> His short run as Labor Leader is fast coming to an end but who will be the alternative?
> 
> ...





Same thing was said about the Coalition in opposition and they were right we got Abbott


----------



## noco (9 March 2014)

IFocus said:


> Same thing was said about the Coalition in opposition and they were right we got Abbott




So what is wrong with Abbott?......He is now well accepted by majority of voters according to the latest poll whereas Shorten is going down hill fast.

I suggest it won't be long before Paul Howes enters parliament in order to move Labor in a new direction.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...tens_challenge_dont_take_labor_back_a_century


----------



## noco (9 March 2014)

Wake up Bill before it is too late.

[Shorten] presents, however, as a leader lacking not just a sense of conviction but an absence of any comprehensible ideology. The question starting to be asked is whether he is suited to the role of leading the modern Labor Party…

One of Shorten’s own factional colleagues lamented privately on Tuesday after emerging from a caucus meeting that it was like watching a “theatre of the unwell”.

“We are not now at risk of being viewed as pre-Hawke Keating, we are not even pre-Whitlam. We are looking more like a pre-Calwell Labor party,” he decried…

He was referring to the economic nationalism and protectionism which Labor appears to have adopted as the language of the new economy. It started with the auto-industry and reached a crescendo this week over Qantas…

Labor in opposition has historically gravitated back to the Left. But this natural cycling has become demonstrably more pronounced since the post election structural changes to the party ”” primarily the decision to allow the party branch members a potential veto over caucus in the election of the party’s leader… Shorten is confronted with a new internal constituency often dominated by social misfits, union hacks and members of the Socialist Left…

Labor’s recast policies on asylum boats, climate change, energy policy and industrial relations are all a consequence of this new paradigm. They may make sense to his internal constituency but makes no sense to the majority of Australians.

(Thanks to reader Brett t r.)


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...e_qantas_argument_because_were_not_that_dumb/


----------



## wayneL (10 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> When people find their overtime and penalty rates cut and they can't afford their mortgages and food any more, it will be Abbott that has to worry.




Do you not find it disturbing that the ability to afford mortgages and food relies on penalty and overtime rates?


----------



## rumpole (10 March 2014)

wayneL said:


> Do you not find it disturbing that the ability to afford mortgages and food relies on penalty and overtime rates?




Of course. Are you suggesting a general pay increase ?


----------



## noco (10 March 2014)

Shorten appointed his mates to run a large super fund just before the 2013 election and have now been dismissed because of a conflict of interest.

What a hypocrite he is after hounding Senator Nash over the Cadbury deal.

“This situation is a result of Bill Shorten’s deliberate strategy to stack the Fair Work Commission,” Senator Abetz told The Australian. “Mr Shorten must explain why he made two appointments to such sensitive roles with such obvious conflicts just before the 2013 election.

“This process will have a significant impact on the retirement savings of 1.3 million honest workers. It is extremely concerning that Mr Shorten chose to play politics with these appointments and thus jeopardise the entire process.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-to-bill-shorten/story-fn59noo3-1226849770200


----------



## noco (10 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> You may care to read this, also quoted in another thread
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...wages-blowout-of-an-inflexible-market/5305998
> 
> It seems that HARD LABOR has left us with a flexible labour market after all.




The subject of debate revolved around weekend penalty rates and has nothing to do with your link.

VStephen Koukoulas is a Research Fellow at Per Capita, a progressive think tank. Between October 2010 and July 2011, he was economic policy advisor to the Prime Minister Julia Gillard


----------



## rumpole (10 March 2014)

noco said:


> VStephen Koukoulas is a Research Fellow at Per Capita, a progressive think tank. Between October 2010 and July 2011, he was economic policy advisor to the Prime Minister Julia Gillard




I bet he's got horns too.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> I bet he's got horns too.




The problem is, nobody can get excited enough to even discuss Bill Shorten.

That tells you something, everyone sees him as a non event, sad really.

When Abbott was leader of the opposition, Labor couldn't shut up about him.

Nothing has changed.


----------



## rumpole (11 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is, nobody can get excited enough to even discuss Bill Shorten.




Fraid you are right. Bill is deadly dull. He may be a good worker behind the scenes, but as a front man he does little to inspire. Neither does his deputy. Albanese, Burke or Bowen are better long term bets.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Fraid you are right. Bill is deadly dull. He may be a good worker behind the scenes, but as a front man he does little to inspire. Neither does his deputy. Albanese, Burke or Bowen are better long term bets.




I agree Burke and Bowen would be a better long term proposition.


----------



## dutchie (12 March 2014)

Well I think its obvious now that we can answer the threads question.

Bill Shorten *is* PM material. I hope the Labor party keep him there as long as Bill wants to be there.

If for some reason Bill is unable to fill the role, he should be replaced by Tanya Plibersek.

We know that these two excellent politicians will continue the great legacy of previous Labor PM's.

For Australia's sake keep them there!


----------



## trainspotter (13 March 2014)

Bill *is* stuffed now if he goes against "BIG" Joe (who by the way is only about 5 foot 4")



> *OPPOSITION Leader Bill Shorten has been challenged to expel West Australian union heavyweight Joe McDonald from the Labor Party after he was fined for physically threatening a worker who refused to strike.*
> Mr McDonald, the assistant secretary of the CFMEU in WA, was banned by the Federal Court from Brookfield Multiplex sites for three years and fined $30,500, after the incident at a water treatment plant last March.
> The union will have to pay a total of $500,000 in compensation to the company, and $143,000 in fines.
> The West Australian newspaper reported that the court heard how hydraulics worker Eddie Ierace was held by the neck and threatened with Mr McDonald's fist as he tried to enter the plant.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...-dump-union-boss/story-e6frfku9-1226853591872


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2014)

dutchie said:


> Well I think its obvious now that we can answer the threads question.
> 
> Bill Shorten *is* PM material. I hope the Labor party keep him there as long as Bill wants to be there.
> 
> ...




After serious navel gazing, I'm with you dutchie.

There isn't any obvious replacement for the resplendent Bill, maybe Anthony or Tanya, could be called upon  in a pinch.


----------



## noco (16 March 2014)

Poor old Bill....he did not know who the Premier of South Australia was...he thought the Premier of Western Australia Colin Barnett was the Premier of South Australia......I am afraid he did not have a very good day in Western Australia


----------



## rumpole (16 March 2014)

noco said:


> Poor old Bill....he did not know who the Premier of South Australia was...he thought the Premier of Western Australia Colin Barnett was the Premier of South Australia......I am afraid he did not have a very good day in Western Australia




Probably he had a better day than the Lib SA Opposition leader who urged people to  vote for the Labor party


----------



## drsmith (16 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Probably he had a better day than the Lib SA Opposition leader who urged people to  vote for the Labor party



The next day for him I'd suggest was worse.

That one-word slip I'd suspect cost his party a majority seat result as at the conclusion of counting last night.


----------



## noco (25 October 2014)

I watched Bill Shorten on Sky News today and I could not believe what he said and I quote,

*"I BELIEVE IN GOD".* unquote.

This bloke is a Fabian (communist) just like Gillard.........All Fabians are atheists........this Shorten wants two bob each way just to attract votes.


----------



## noco (25 October 2014)

noco said:


> I watched Bill Shorten on Sky News today and I could not believe what he said and I quote,
> 
> *"I BELIEVE IN GOD".* unquote.
> 
> This bloke is a Fabian (communist) just like Gillard.........All Fabians are atheists........this Shorten wants two bob each way just to attract votes.






http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bi...and-gay-marriage/story-fni0fiyv-1227102055338


----------



## chiff (26 October 2014)

Outrageous slander!
Are you on medication Noco?
Are you the same contributor that believed that Greenland was named because it was green?


----------



## explod (26 October 2014)

chiff said:


> Outrageous slander!
> Are you on medication Noco?
> Are you the same contributor that believed that Greenland was named because it was green?





Absolutely agree. Noco is Christopher Pine in my view. A very nascistic piece of work. Unfortunately it is some time till the next election when they will be cast to the sewer.

Shorten is a sensitive lateral thinker who is endevouring to bring consensis and justice to as many people overall as possible.

However to counter the cold line of supporting the policies of business expansionism over a fair go Shorten seems lost.  Big business is no longer productive to rank and file people.  It is about making money by skinning the labour (worker content) to the bone. Karl Marx was correct in his take but out in timing.  However that time has arrived and my heart feels sorrow for the younger generation who are increasingly having to beg, borrow or steal to survive.  Or hit the ice of course.

Tony Bourke is one who seems to have the fire and the required sense of fair play.


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2014)

Another "mad monk" as potential leader of our nation ??


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2014)

explod said:


> Shorten is a sensitive lateral thinker who is endevouring to bring consensis and justice to as many people overall as possible.
> 
> However to counter the cold line of supporting the policies of business expansionism over a fair go Shorten seems lost.  Big business is no longer productive to rank and file people.  It is about making money by skinning the labour (worker content) to the bone. Karl Marx was correct in his take but out in timing.  However that time has arrived and my heart feels sorrow for the younger generation who are increasingly having to beg, borrow or steal to survive.  Or hit the ice of course.
> 
> Tony Bourke is one who seems to have the fire and the required sense of fair play.



On matters of beg, borrow or steal to survive.

Illegal drug use is not an essential for survival or for that matter, a healthy and rewarding life.

Bill Shorten is trying to be everything to everyone. He has lots of questions but no answers himself. It's a trait of opposition that is (unfortunately) typical at this stage of the electoral cycle but he and his party have taken it to a new level.


----------



## Julia (26 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten is trying to be everything to everyone. He has lots of questions but no answers himself. It's a trait of opposition that is (unfortunately) typical at this stage of the electoral cycle but he and his party have taken it to a new level.



+1.
And, given the mention of Christopher Pyne above, at least he is making an attempt to improve the basic literacy and numeracy in our schools.  
explod, what does 'nascistic' mean?


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2014)

Could the following be Labor's greatest backflip since Bill Shorten briefly resurrected Kevin Rudd from the political grave after first handing Julia Gillard the weapon to slaughter his prime-mininstership in the first place ?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...the-boats-richard-marles-20141026-11bym6.html


----------



## Calliope (26 October 2014)

He is not PM material. Mathias Cormann hit the nail on the head.

[video]http://www.afr.com/videos/national/cormannator-takes-on-girlie-man-shorten-zwmhi3ctp59xaumcamkvxrtnq5rdkcp9.html#ooid=ZwMHI3c  Tp59xAuMCAmKVXrtNq5rdKCp9[/video]


----------



## explod (26 October 2014)

Hi Julia

It means i cannot spell nor check it when writing from a small phone on the train.  Just hoped to paint the vibe.


----------



## noco (26 October 2014)

explod said:


> Absolutely agree. Noco is Christopher Pine in my view. A very nascistic piece of work. Unfortunately it is some time till the next election when they will be cast to the sewer.
> 
> Shorten is a sensitive lateral thinker who is endevouring to bring consensis and justice to as many people overall as possible.
> 
> ...




I could not but have a chuckle about you branding me "NASCISTIC".....upon looking up the Oxford dictionary, I could not find any such word so I do not know what you think I am....I have also heard of a Christopher Pyne but not  a Christopher Pine.

But whatever it may mean, i would only take it as some slur on my Character and as I pointed out on another thread when the lefties don't like to hear the truth, they resort the cheap tactics of Character assassination.

I emphasis again, a true Fabian cannot be a believer in God....All Fabians and Communists have only one religion and that is Socialism....all  other religions do not exist.

http://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/the-fabian-society-creeping-communism/

*Fabians are, according to their own symbolism, wolves in sheep’s clothing, and that explains why their style is more effective in countries where parliamentary traditions are well established and where people expect to have a voice in their own political destiny.

Leninists, on the other hand, tend to be wolves in wolf’s clothing, and their style is more
effective in countries where parliamentary traditions are weak and where people are used to dictatorships anyway.

In countries where parliamentary traditions are strong, the primary tactic for both of these groups is to send their agents into the power centers of society to capture control from the inside. Power centers are those organizations and institutions that represent all the politically influential segments of society. These include labor unions, political parties, church organizations, segments of the media, educational institutions, civic organizations, financial institutions, and industrial corporations, to name just a few. In a moment, I am going to read a partial list of members of an organization called the Council on Foreign Relations, and you will recognize that the power centers these people control are classic examples of this strategy.*


----------



## noco (26 October 2014)

chiff said:


> Outrageous slander!
> Are you on medication Noco?
> Are you the same contributor that believed that Greenland was named because it was green?




Chiff is there any need for you to be facetious?

Although well off the theme of this thread, I thought I would attempt to educate you on the history of Greenland. 

Once upon a time, Greenland grazed sheep and cattle and grew crops and traded there produce until a mini ice age set in around the 17th and 18th century, hence the name Greenland.

Some thousands of years ago the Earth was 5 degrees C warmer than it is today and according to scientist very little ice existed on Greenland. 

I hope I have been of some help to you.


http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/h/History_of_Greenland.htm


----------



## SirRumpole (26 October 2014)

A lot of people didn't think Abbott was PM material.

They were right.


----------



## noco (26 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of people didn't think Abbott was PM material.
> 
> They were right.




And a lot of people will disagree with you.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> And a lot of people will disagree with you.




Not me


----------



## IFocus (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> And a lot of people will disagree with you.





The polls don't say that.......


----------



## noco (1 November 2014)

IFocus said:


> The polls don't say that.......




The polls will be different shortly when voters learn how this nut case Shorten is going to open the smuggler trade again.

I mean the man must have rocks in his head......he will be committing political suicide if he  brings back the Rudd open border policy.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...108905597?sv=b9ec6c4971faafb670c1d95b6ea8cd93


----------



## noco (10 November 2014)

Now Bill, the Chinese are putting a tariff on coal ....not iron ore.

You should do some more home work or did the dog eat it?

And this bloke wants to be Prime Minister.

And you can bet your boots the ABC will remain silent......If it had been Abbott, the ABC would have been all over it.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...118002640?sv=918702b6654cc8d6eb0d8da5476fa635


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2014)

It will be interesting to see if Shorten and the Labor Party, back the Coalition push to cut back 'perks'.

The superannuation and other 'perks' to ex politicians are unbelivably generous, when compared to what average Australians get.

It seems fair and reasonable that they are toned down, to at least be understandable, free flights around the country "why".

Hopefully Bill can practice what he preaches and helps push through the cuts.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-10/federal-mps-fight-to-keep-gold-pass-travel-perks/5879990


----------



## noco (26 November 2014)

I tuned into ABC 2 this afternoon and who should be giving a speech to the National Press Club but dear old Bill Shorten, now known as barnacle Bill.

I thought about switching to another channel because I can't stand his droning dramatic voice for a start....But no, in all fairness, I decided to listen to his rhetoric which had no substance whatsoever......His BS consisted of how great the Labor Party is, the plan, the vision and the insight he had for Australia (no details I might add), how bad the Liberal Party is, how bad Tony Abbott is in blaming the Green/Labor left wing socialist for the bad state of the economy and after 14 months in office should have now rectified the situation.

I continued to listen in the hope that he just may have told his audience something positive of how he would fix the budget and pay back the Green/Labor debt which we pay $1billion a week in interest....but to my disappointment nothing came out of that poisoned mouth of his.

Then it came for question time from various journalists.......As each one asked Bill a pertinent question, he immediately diverted it to Abbott bashing.......his parrot blah blah about broken promises by Abbott was monotonous to say the least......could never answer the journos with a truthful answer.

And this bloke wants to be Prime Minister!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tisme (26 November 2014)

Unfortunately for us, any Labor leader doesn't have to do anything while the govt works its way out of the pickle it's in.


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> Unfortunately for us, any Labor leader doesn't have to do anything while the govt works its way out of the pickle it's in.




Very true, the spending cycle will return, because the last thing people want, is the spending to stop.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 November 2014)

I think Bill Shorten is one of the boring politicians I've ever listened to.

But at least it's better than the stumbling umms and ahhs of the PM.


----------



## noco (27 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think Bill Shorten is one of the boring politicians I've ever listened to.
> 
> But at least it's better than the stumbling umms and ahhs of the PM.




Have you ever noticed how Tanya speaks...I would say she is worse than Abbott.

Abbott has improved a lot from the days you talk about....you are living in the past.


----------



## IFocus (27 November 2014)

Don't know who wrote  Shortens speech yesterday but apart from some flat spots it smashed Abbott.

Pity Shorten is no orator but he did dance through the questions with ease with a smile.......I think he smells blood and he wont have to do a thing Abbott and his policy's / petty politics is doing all the heavy lifting for Shorten.


----------



## shouldaindex (8 December 2014)

His rhetoric is the old "broken promises".

I think one lady knows of one of his.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2014)

Bill Shorten blitzes Tony Abbott in latest Australian political poll




> THE Prime Minister continues to take a battering in the polls, with Labor leader Bill Shorten well ahead of Tony Abbott as the nation’s preferred leader, according to an Ipsos poll.
> 
> In a survey conducted just four weeks ago the two leaders were level pegging on 41 per cent each, but now Mr Shorten is out-performing the Prime Minister by *47 to 39* per cent.
> 
> ...




Obviously a lot more people think Bill Shorten *is* PM material


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Obviously a lot more people think Bill Shorten *is* PM material




I know right.
A guy that allegedly does some bad stuff is still polling better than Abbott.
In fact a guy that has the charisma of a shoe thats stepped in a dog turd is polling better than Abbott.
In fact a guy that leads a party that couldn't organize flies on $hit without doubling the deficit is leading.... well you get the idea.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> I know right.
> A guy that allegedly does some bad stuff is still polling better than Abbott.
> In fact a guy that has the charisma of a shoe thats stepped in a dog turd is polling better than Abbott.
> In fact a guy that leads a party that couldn't organize flies on $hit without doubling the deficit is leading.... well you get the idea.




Of course, it's not about Shorten , it's about Abbott. He's cr@p, and even the Libs and their supporters here are recognising that.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> even the Libs and their supporters here are recognising that.




No he was never really supported that much in the first place. But in saying that the libs are pushing through in the areas I was hoping they would. Furthering trade with Asia (I voted for Rudd first time round after his little BS speech about forging closer ties), cutting some of the stupid small business regulation in fact a lot of the real boring stuff that hasn't been touched. I'm over the grandstanding policy that achieves nothing but waste. Just get things running smoothly and open up new markets.There is plenty more I like but lots I don't. Abbott and his advisers failed in too many areas 
Our social media driven nation seems to lap up the US style of politics now though.Seems government has to be a circus to keep short attention spans. No wonder Rudd jumped from policy to policy.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> No he was never really supported that much in the first place. But in saying that the libs are pushing through in the areas I was hoping they would. Furthering trade with Asia (I voted for Rudd first time round after his little BS speech about forging closer ties), cutting some of the stupid small business regulation in fact a lot of the real boring stuff that hasn't been touched. I'm over the grandstanding policy that achieves nothing but waste. Just get things running smoothly and open up new markets.There is plenty more I like but lots I don't. Abbott and his advisers failed in too many areas
> Our social media driven nation seems to lap up the US style of politics now though.Seems government has to be a circus to keep short attention spans. No wonder Rudd jumped from policy to policy.




You're spot on there moxjo, the media have carved up Abbott really well, it is amazing how much influence they have on public opinion.


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2014)

You know that look bosses get when they know they are going to be locked out of the premises by the owners, because the business is tanking? 

Like it or not the guys in charge are stagnating our economy while they continue thinking they are in opposition. The sooner they realise they are merely a succession management that takes responsibility for those past, the sooner they might focus on matters Australia, instead of pathetic divisive clichÃ©s that insult at least half the population, slaps like "Labor's Mess".

News for the Liberals :- you got less votes than the Labor party last election
News for the Nats :- you got half the votes the greens got and worse you were out performed by the PUP

you are the same coalition of two parties you derided Labor for, but sought to emulate behind closed doors at the same time.

When you and your newspaper masters speak like you speak for the vast majority you don't, your combined primary vote was 40.9%, that's 60% of the voters wanting something else.

A year on and we are witnessing all talk no action, more slanging at governing members past, failed attempts to restart the mining investment by lowering our revenue take and allowing more profits to flow to London, big infrastructure programs that we can apparently afford when we have no money (we just gave heaps to London in reduced taxation), insulting world leaders as if we mattered in their circles of trust, etc ..


and now we have Andrew Bolt putting the skewers into Abbott and making his pick for the new leader.... ... I mean really if there was ever a quintessential Dutch reputation in play.  

If it was my business I would pull them all in and give them the rub on what we are supposed to be aiming for, instead of acting like the grubbers in middle management doing their usual back biting for the top jobs ... they are already in the top jobs.


----------



## drsmith (8 December 2014)

What about Bill ?

Isn't this thread about Bill ?


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> What about Bill ?
> 
> Isn't this thread about Bill ?




Well it can't really be about Bill doc, Bill doesn't stand for anything, other than re election. Somewhat like Kev.

As Bill says, what crisis? 
Vote for me and everything will stay the same.lol


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well it can't really be about Bill doc, Bill doesn't stand for anything, other than re election. Somewhat like Kev.
> 
> As Bill says, what crisis?
> Vote for me and everything will stay the same.lol




That's right ! 

My post was to demonstrate how Billy needs do nothing because the LNP are doing nothing too (in the eyes of the public).


----------



## overhang (8 December 2014)

The polls don't indicate that Shorten is PM material but just that Abbott isn't.


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2014)

My daughter told me the other day how well Bill talked about himself and Abbott the other week. I seem to remember how poor the speech was ...... just goes to show how different the message is to different audiences.

I think she was channelling her facebook community of 30 somethings .... go Bill! 

The little bomb she dropped was there is apparently some groundswell about approaching Paul Keating to see if he wants a few years giving some drive to Australians.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

Well not everyone thinks Bill is the 'man' for the job.
This from the Courier Mail.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-nation-on-earth/story-fnihsr9v-1227147788128

An extract from the article, probably best Bill supports change channel.

And right now, Australia looks like being the 2014 National Darwin Award winner. Why? Because we are among the most collectively stupid people on the planet. Just look at the statistics – or rather, the opinion polls.

Apparently, a majority of us think Bill Shorten would be a better prime minister of our country than Tony Abbott.


----------



## banco (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well not everyone thinks Bill is the 'man' for the job.
> This from the Courier Mail.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-nation-on-earth/story-fnihsr9v-1227147788128
> ...




Because Tony Abbott has displayed such competence?  Bill Shorten is an arch oppurtunist and an A-grade cynic but I think he'd be fairly competent.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

banco said:


> Because Tony Abbott has displayed such competence?  Bill Shorten is an arch oppurtunist and an A-grade cynic but I think he'd be fairly competent.




Don't you think his opposition to spending cuts, will come back to haunt him, when he has to enact them himself.

He seems to be snookering himself, the same way Abbott has done.

By disagreeing with the spending cuts, he is basically saying there won't be any on his watch. 
It has all become a bit stupid really.


----------



## banco (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Don't you think his opposition to spending cuts, will come back to haunt him, when he has to enact them himself.
> 
> He seems to be snookering himself, the same way Abbott has done.
> 
> ...




I think you'll find most of his statements are carefully hedged.


----------



## bellenuit (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> You're spot on there moxjo, the media have carved up Abbott really well, it is amazing how much influence they have on public opinion.




True, sprawler, but then again Abbott can be his own worst enemy. I just heard a short comment from him on his current bad polling and he said something to the effect that although the polls are bad, many other leaders have recovered from abysmal polling and cited as examples Howard, Reagan and Thatcher.

For someone who is being portrayed as having no heart and having no regard for the less well off, comparing himself to Thatcher is IMO ill considered. I am not passing comment on Thatcher, just the perception that many have of Thatcher being the enemy of the poor.


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2014)

"_Oppositions are not there to get legislation through. Oppositions are there to hold the government to account. And unless we are confident that a piece of legislation is beyond reasonable doubt in the national interest, it is our duty as the Opposition to vote it down.

An Opposition party’s main day-to-day task is always to mount an effective critique of the government ... 

Now, I don’t want to spend the rest of my political life quoting Paul Keating, but remember what Paul Keating said in another context. He said, “If you don’t understand it, don’t vote for it, and if you do understand it, you’d never vote for it.”

Now, if we are absolutely confident that what the government is doing is beyond reasonable doubt in the national interest, sure, let’s go along with it. But if you’ve got the sort of doubts that we obviously have over this, well, we’re obliged to oppose it."_


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Apparently, a majority of us think Bill Shorten would be a better prime minister of our country than Tony Abbott.




If you threw a goat into the mix the goat would probably poll higher then both of them put together.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:
			
		

> You're spot on there moxjo, the media have carved up Abbott really well, it is amazing how much influence they have on public opinion.




The reason Abbott is being carved up by the media is because he was dead meat to start with.

His lies and the lack of consultation with his own party over PPL has cooked him well and truly.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The reason Abbott is being carved up by the media is because he was dead meat to start with.
> 
> His lies and the lack of consultation with his own party over PPL has cooked him well and truly.




So on the basis of that, you have an ingrained hatred, hope it keeps you warm when needed.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> So on the basis of that, you have an ingrained hatred, hope it keeps you warm when needed.




Ingrained hate ? Your words not mine.

I don't think he's got what it takes to run the country. Unfortunately few others in politics now do. 

Scott Morrison is a Nazi, Julie Bishop is hiding out of sight in Foreign Affairs, but hopefully she is learning something, the Coalition will not pick Turnbuil again. Maybe Andrew Robb is a long shot as leader but his depression problems could be a disadvantage.

Labor is experimenting with Shorten, despite being boring as he hasn't had many foot in mouth moments. Bowen, Albanese and Dreyfuss are waiting in the wings for his job if he trips.

The country is just staggering along at the moment. We are set for rough times no matter who is in the hot seat.


----------



## Macquack (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> You're spot on there moxjo, the media have carved up Abbott really well, it is amazing how much influence they have on public opinion.




Didn't hear you saying that about the media when Julia Gillard was being "burnt at the stake" by the media. "Carving up" Abbott is just going soft on him in comparison.

Having said that, I never buy into these **** 'n' bull polls.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Ingrained hate ? Your words not mine.
> 
> I don't think he's got what it takes to run the country. Unfortunately few others in politics now do. .




No because? he's feral.lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxK4m9_-0r8
Yes just watch it, he is aggressive and nasty, I can see where the media are coming from. 



SirRumpole said:


> Scott Morrison is a Nazi, Julie Bishop is hiding out of sight in Foreign Affairs, but hopefully she is learning something, the Coalition will not pick Turnbuil again. Maybe Andrew Robb is a long shot as leader but his depression problems could be a disadvantage..




So know that you have got rid of nasty Abbott, it is on to Nazi Morrison and hiding Bishop.
Can't wait untill your wish comes true, but your probably an untouchable.lol



SirRumpole said:


> Labor is experimenting with Shorten, despite being boring as he hasn't had many foot in mouth moments. Bowen, Albanese and Dreyfuss are waiting in the wings for his job if he trips..




No Bill hasn't put his foot wrong, since knifing Rudd, knifing Gillard, then reinstating Rudd, then knifing him again.lol



SirRumpole said:


> The country is just staggering along at the moment. We are set for rough times no matter who is in the hot seat.




Bill will fix it, yeh right.:1zhelp:


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

Macquack said:


> Didn't hear you saying that about the media when Julia Gillard was being "burnt at the stake" by the media. "Carving up" Abbott is just going soft on him in comparison.
> 
> Having said that, I never buy into these **** 'n' bull polls.




Gillard wasn't burned by the media, show some substance to that statement, jeez even bloody Hillary Clinton jumped on board to protect her.
She did nothing, but sell out Australia to a minority party and use gender as a political sledgehammer, to cover up for political failings.IMO

She was very fortunate that she was Labor, if someone like Bishop tried it, she would have been hammered.IMO

We will see:
The Henry report came in during Gillards term in office, very little was implemented.
We will judge this government by the 'white paper'.
Sounds fair?


----------



## Macquack (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> She was very fortunate that she was Labor, if someone like Bishop tried it, she would have been hammered.IMO




What do you mean by "hammered", you must be joking?


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

Macquack said:


> What do you mean by "hammered", you must be joking?




Well how would it have gone? If Abbott had stood up and given a recital about how he wouldn't be spoken down to by this femanist?

Jeez I would have loved to have seen the World Press take on that.

Yet it was all smoothed over, when Gillards crew incited a riot against Abbott, that backfired.

How would the press have gone to town on that, if it could have been shown Abbotts inner circle, caused a mob to attack Gillard.

Where do you people set your moral compass? obviously every morning.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

Macquack said:


> What do you mean by "hammered", you must be joking?




Gillard was a whinger who used sexism, class warfare and dirty tactics to shame her critics and divide Australia. Abbott has copped it a lot worse from fairfax, opinion pieces and social media with his family being fair game as well. And all just to score points in the left vs right battle l.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> Gillard was a whinger who used sexism, class warfare and dirty tactics to shame her critics and divide Australia. Abbott has copped it a lot worse from fairfax, opinion pieces and social media with his family being fair game as well. And all just to score points in the left vs right battle l.




Gillard was repeatedly attacked for her "barrenness", and Tim Matheson was accused of being gay and other rubbish like that. 

Just another example of the "left versus right" class warfare and personal abuse that Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and Ray Hadley engaged in.

She copped a lot worse than Abbott ever has and stood up to it pretty well IMHO.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Gillard was repeatedly attacked for her "barrenness", and Tim Matheson was accused of being gay and other rubbish like that.
> 
> Just another example of the "left versus right" class warfare and personal abuse that Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and Ray Hadley engaged in.
> 
> She copped a lot worse than Abbott ever has and stood up to it pretty well IMHO.




Oh please you lightweight. How about


> Facebook hate pages such as ‘Furiously Masturbating To Tony Abbott’s daughters’, or the more innocuous sounding, but equally disgusting page titled ‘Tony Abbott’s Daughters.’ Both are filled with the vilest of sexual descriptions, including incest and bestiality, depraved fantasies




lol not to mention death threats , tshirts that you can buy slagging Abbott, Fairfax media, how about some tweets







> @MusicMelbMary: ‘What would Tony Abbott do if one of his daughter’s became a prostitute?’ @AndyDwyerSays: ‘Tony Abbott’s daughters now snorting lines off toilets at Lib HQ #ausvotes’. @MichelleBlogna: ‘Can’t wait for a leaked sex tape of the @TonyAbbottMHR daughters #ElectionProject’. @mffyrg ‘Shower @TonyAbbottMHR’s repulsive daughters with rotten fruit and veg at every opportunity. The *****s of @LiberalAus.’ @vila900 ‘Tony Abbot’s [sic] daughters look like men. Ugly. #TonyAbbott’. @JcliffordSmith: ‘Tony Abbott’s daughters look like trannies 2nite #ausvotes’. @bernietb: ‘Tony Abbott groping his daughters live on national TV’. @dailydoseofjess: ‘Tony Abbott’s daughters glad they can finally stop playfully stroking their dad’s chest.’ @JazzyAds: ‘Tony Abbott lusts after his daughters. Margie looks like a man, no wonder perv Tony can’t keep his hands off them. #tonyabbott #pervtony’.



 and they are the tame ones.
Gillard was a whinger.
Is Abbott having a cry with a "poor me , the world hates me"?
No he takes it in his stride the same that Howard did.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> Oh please you lightweight. How about
> 
> 
> lol not to mention death threats , tshirts that you can buy slagging Abbott, Fairfax media, how about some tweets and they are the tame ones.
> ...




Social media is rife with idiots on all sides. 

You can't compare a few dills talking on obscure sites with what the mainstream media Murdoch, Alan Jones etc did to Gillard.

Gillard had a go at Jones and Murdoch because they had a go at her. I bet the social media traffic against Gillard was just as bad as against Abbott. She didn't whinge about that.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Social media is rife with idiots on all sides.
> 
> You can't compare a few dills talking on obscure sites with what the mainstream media Murdoch, Alan Jones etc did to Gillard.
> 
> Gillard had a go at Jones and Murdoch because they had a go at her. I bet the social media traffic against Gillard was just as bad as against Abbott. She didn't whinge about that.




Mike carlton and a whole host of other fairfax writers foster hate via blogging. The left are fantastic at spreading the message through social media.
Gillard used the last tactic of a scoundrel for cheap political points. Then tried to blame everyone else for her own failings.
Criminal actions were used against abbotts daughter to obtain information which was then passed on to lefty media. Howard was getting bullets in the mail with his name on it. They all cop it.
Gillard used it for sympathy which didn't pan out.


----------



## dutchie (9 December 2014)

Opinion: Australia wins my Darwin Award for dumbest nation on Earth 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-nation-on-earth/story-fnihsr9v-1227147788128

"And right now, Australia looks like being the 2014 National Darwin Award winner. Why? Because we are among the most collectively stupid people on the planet. Just look at the statistics – or rather, the opinion polls.

Apparently, a majority of us think Bill Shorten would be a better prime minister of our country than Tony Abbott.

Let me run that past you again – slowly this time, really slowly, because it’s obvious there are some pretty slow people out there: a … majority … (in other words, enough voters to win an election) … think … (i.e. have apparently used what passes for their brains and come to this conclusion) … that Bill Shorten … (a bloke who is so empty-headed he once said: “I don’t know what Julia Gillard said, but I agree with every word of it”) … would be a better prime minister … (in other words, be making every single decision every single day for three years that will determine the prosperity and financial success of every one of us and all our children) … than Tony Abbott (a bloke who, regardless of whether you like him or not, has as his sole focus a single-minded determination to fix the economic mess that this country is in).

Come again? Are we for real?

The best Darwin Awards always have a neat slice of bitter irony to them; like the guy who tries to impress his fiancee by climbing on to her balcony – on the 101st floor.

The irony with our National Darwin winner – Australia – is that the very bloke Australians want as their next prime minister was part of the team that got us into our financial mess in the first place.

Worse, Shorten is either so dumb or so devious that he is now opposing the very same $5 billion worth of cuts to spending that he supported when he was in government."


----------



## overhang (9 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Gillard wasn't burned by the media, show some substance to that statement, jeez even bloody Hillary Clinton jumped on board to protect her.
> She did nothing, but sell out Australia to a minority party and use gender as a political sledgehammer, to cover up for political failings.IMO
> 
> She was very fortunate that she was Labor, if someone like Bishop tried it, she would have been hammered.IMO




I think you need to remove an eye patch there.  Gillard and Rudd were crucified in the Murdoch press the same way Abbott is now being grilled by particularly Fairfax.  When the press have a taste for blood like they did with Gillard then they're like a dog with a bone and that's the stage they seem to have hit with Abbott. 
Prime example the day after the election date was announced the Daily Telegraph ran the headline 'Finally you now have the chance to KICK THIS MOB OUT".


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> Criminal actions were used against abbotts daughter to obtain information which was then passed on to lefty media.




I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in that sentence. I recall some enraged girls were so incensed by the injustice of a second rate student getting a $60k achiever scholarship they went on their own crusade, without any leftist or rightest ideology.

Of course if you agree that scholarships should be based on what religion you are or who your dad is then it was a terrible thing for the girls to do. Tony himself comes from a privileged North Shore background, was mentored by Catholic extremist Santamaria and then his silver spooned politically connected pastor Father Emmet Costello got him a Rhodes Scholarship where Tony did rather poorly on the meritocracy scale.

The first I saw of Abbott's daughter mess was in the Murdoch press and they didn't shrink from publishing the ferment:

e.g.  http://www.news.com.au/national/cla...titute-of-design/story-fncynjr2-1226926934506

I was just mulling over things and realised we could be seeing a political version of Trading Places in play ...... just replace the stock exchange in the movie with some powerful religious organisation.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in that sentence. I recall some enraged girls were so incensed by the injustice of a second rate student getting a $60k achiever scholarship they went on their own crusade, without any leftist or rightest ideology.
> 
> You are lying about murdoch papers printing that article. I have been made aware from this forum that they never print articles against libs.
> 
> ...




I dont agree with the scholarship. But from memory the information was obtained illegally and was to discredit abbott more (not like he needed the help) from left aligned. Im sure I can drag the details out later(I hate copy & pasting from the phone).


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> I dont agree with the scholarship. But from memory the information was obtained illegally and was to discredit abbott more (not like he needed the help) from left aligned. Im sure I can drag the details out later(I hate copy & pasting from the phone).





That would be good.

I know I would be rather upset knowing part of my school fees were being syphoned off to build a first, one and only scholarship for the kid of a politician who can reward that school with taxpayer monies through various assistance packages later on.... not that honourable members of parliament would ever reward businesses for their patronage.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That would be good.
> 
> I know I would be rather upset knowing part of my school fees were being syphoned off to build a first, one and only scholarship for the kid of a politician who can reward that school with taxpayer monies through various assistance packages later on.... not that honourable members of parliament would ever reward businesses for their patronage.



Yes it stinks of a rort and you would think the school would know this would come out considering the hatred towards Abbott.
It was first posted to a center left paper new matilda. I will get the rest later


----------



## overhang (9 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> I dont agree with the scholarship. But from memory the information was obtained illegally and was to discredit abbott more (not like he needed the help) from left aligned. Im sure I can drag the details out later(I hate copy & pasting from the phone).




Yes it's illegal but that's more a reflection that our laws don't offer enough protection to whistle blowers imo.  I think most reasonable people would agree its in the public best interests to publish this information.  Here we have the PM's daughter being awarded a scholarship that was created just for her that required no application and gave no other candidates the option to apply and the head of this college also happens to be a NSW liberal party donor and friend of Tony Abbotts.  I wouldn't give a hoot but this college receives tax payer funding and at the same time the Abbott government is pushing through legislation that will increase the cost of higher education all while his daughter receives free education.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes it's illegal but that's more a reflection that our laws don't offer enough protection to whistle blowers imo.  I think most reasonable people would agree its in the public best interests to publish this information.  Here we have the PM's daughter being awarded a scholarship that was created just for her that required no application and gave no other candidates the option to apply and the head of this college also happens to be a NSW liberal party donor and friend of Tony Abbotts.  I wouldn't give a hoot but this college receives tax payer funding and at the same time the Abbott government is pushing through legislation that will increase the cost of higher education all while his daughter receives free education.




+1.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes it's illegal but that's more a reflection that our laws don't offer enough protection to whistle blowers imo.  I think most reasonable people would agree its in the public best interests to publish this information.  Here we have the PM's daughter being awarded a scholarship that was created just for her that required no application and gave no other candidates the option to apply and the head of this college also happens to be a NSW liberal party donor and friend of Tony Abbotts.  I wouldn't give a hoot but this college receives tax payer funding and at the same time the Abbott government is pushing through legislation that will increase the cost of higher education all while his daughter receives free education.



Im not arguing that it wasnt a sham but was it illegalI said illegal actions were taken to get abbotts daughter. My statement was correct. I also inferred it was a lefty plot, something about climate change, Bill shorten kicks puppies and Labor sucks. I think I was correct on all points I made.
I think we are going too deep and to off topic off of one sentence.

 Yeah ask the unions and labor about protecting whistleblowers ala kathy J. She copped as much as a sitting pm


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2014)

Yeah I think that while moXJO  appears to have a bias against some Labor aspects there isn't an automatic  corollary of implied loyalty to LNP/Abbott misadventures. 

Common sense would dictate that the circumstances of France's scholarship are smellier than the fish in Denmark and Abbott will have to wear that with the electorate and have the weight of knowing his daughter will carry the stigma of a faux qualification regardless of her grades....nepotism carries a lifetime of baggage


----------



## Calliope (9 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Common sense would dictate that the circumstances of *France's scholarship *are smellier than the fish in Denmark




I see what you mean...was it a traineeship at the Folies BergÃ¨re.

But what's this got to do with Bill Shorten? Did he set it up?

If he did he is indeed PM material... Labor variety, that is.


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I see what you mean...was it a traineeship at the Folies BergÃ¨re.
> 
> But what's this got to do with Bill Shorten? Did he set it up?
> 
> If he did he is indeed PM material... Labor variety, that is.




fRICKEN SPELLING AND GrammA nAZIS 

I thought I had successfully hijacked the thread due to lack of substance and entertainment value?


----------



## Calliope (9 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> fRICKEN SPELLING AND GrammA nAZIS




I guess that crudity is directed at me in an attempt to be provocative. However I don't fall for baited traps anymore.


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I guess that crudity is directed at me in an attempt to be provocative. However I don't fall for baited traps anymore.




You just did


----------



## Calliope (9 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> You just did




When I queried you as to why you go off topic on this Shorten thread you replied;



> *I thought I had successfully hijacked the thread due to lack of substance and entertainment value?*]




I notice you do this on a lot of threads without providing substance or entertainment. How do you manage to bend the rules?


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> When I queried you as to why you go off topic on this Shorten thread you replied;
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you do this on a lot of threads without providing substance or entertainment. How do you manage to bend the rules?




Others may have a self actualised sense of humour and perhaps aren't prone to signalling out members for concatenated insults or maybe they are just happy up there on their high horses and ignore the noise from the cheap seats?  

You obviously like trolling my posts for the enjoyable misery it gives you and misery loves company, so I'm glad to be the cogent agent in cementing that union between the two of you.


----------



## basilio (10 December 2014)

Indeed the satirical, sartorial, scatological bent of this thread is weaving a dazzling display of indisputably dizzy ditziness.

But perhaps that is  a reflection of our current political system and the verbal dexterity (diarrhea ? ) of some posters who have way too much ti(s)me on their hands.


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

basilio said:


> Indeed the satirical, sartorial, scatological bent of this thread is weaving a dazzling display of indisputably dizzy ditziness.
> 
> But perhaps that is  a reflection of our current political system and the verbal dexterity (diarrhea ? ) of some posters who have way too much ti(s)me on their hands.




Thankyou for being gentle on the other fellow basilio. It show a level of years beyond your maturity.


----------



## Calliope (10 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Others may have a self actualised sense of humour and perhaps aren't prone to signalling out members for concatenated insults or maybe they are just happy up there on their high horses and ignore the noise from the cheap seats?
> 
> You obviously like trolling my posts for the enjoyable misery it gives you and misery loves company, so I'm glad to be the cogent agent in cementing that union between the two of you.




:topic...still.


----------



## trainspotter (10 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Thankyou for being gentle on the other fellow basilio. It show a level of years beyond your maturity.




For a lawyer that "did" law as well as 3 technical trades and an engineer to boot you sure do have a lot of time to wax lyrical on topics that you have scant knowledge of.

Bill Shorten this morning on ABC News is nothing short of a union hack designed to do nothing more than cripple the economy. He stated that going to see a doctor should be FREE to the proletariat. “Socialists are happy until they run out of other people's money.” Margaret Thatcher



> Self-evidently, Shorten's practice of giving as little ground to the government as possible while keeping his own powder dry is learned behaviour. *It worked brilliantly for Abbott who, now in government, is having it done back to him*. And again it is proving devastatingly effective. Just look at the government's paralysis in the Senate.




http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...lly-deserve-to-become-pm-20141209-122qyu.html

And finally my general thought is that Bill Shorten would make a great post turtle.

An old rancher is talking about politics with a young man from the city. He compares a politician to a "post turtle". The young man doesn't understand and asks him what a post turtle is.

The old man says, "When you're driving down a country road and you see a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle. You know he didn't get up there by himself. He doesn't belong there; he can't get anything done while he's up there; and you just want to help the poor, dumb thing down."


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

Calliope you have to stop posting quotes that don't relate to the topic.

Lets try to keep the thread on course i.e. Bill Shorten Prime ministerial material.

All we have to do now is wait a few months/years for him to do something that points to the thread context.


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> For a lawyer that "did" law as well as 3 technical trades and an engineer to boot you sure do have a lot of time to wax lyrical on topics that you have scant knowledge of.
> 
> ."




Do you mind keeping on topic rather than churlish character assassination please. None of us should have to apologise for being well educated and suffer ridicule from jealous fools.

Insofar as scant knowledge, 'tisme who let the cat out of the bag about Credlin, Abbott revolt, etc ., no one else here....what have you brought to the table except disconnected right wing propaganda? 

If you want to troll me with inflammatory nonsense, take it to the new thread and fight it out with someone who cares what you think. Otherwise try giving polite conversation a go as a first step up the hierarchy of needs (yes I also have degrees in Marketing and Accounting that you can use as a peasants weapon).


----------



## trainspotter (10 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Do you mind keeping on topic rather than churlish character assassination please. None of us should have to apologise for being well educated and suffer ridicule from jealous fools.
> 
> Insofar as scant knowledge, 'tisme who let the cat out of the bag about Credlin, Abbott revolt, etc ., no one else here....what have you brought to the table except disconnected right wing propaganda?
> 
> If you want to troll me with inflammatory nonsense, take it to the new thread and fight it out with someone who cares what you think. Otherwise try giving polite conversation a go as a first step up the hierarchy of needs (yes I also have degrees in Marketing and Accounting that you can use as a peasants weapon).




Have a look in the mirror 



> I thought I had successfully hijacked the thread due to lack of substance and entertainment value?




Time for Tisme to give the keyboard a rest methinks 

Whiskers anyone?


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

OT : Sorry I was out posting parcels to Tony Abbott and couple of obstreperous board members. Each has a shilling inside with the suggestion they buy a clue and follow through . 

Bill Shorten :- what can be said about Bill Shorten that I haven't already thought of before?


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2014)

I watched Bill on ABC this morning where it was put to him that the public were against Abbott rather than for Shorten. Bill sidestepped, but made a arguably valid point that we have just wasted a year that we can't get back.

I then spotted this article in the Age online which is rather obvious content but readable:

_"He really has not had to do anything difficult yet - certainly nothing as complex as balance a budget, thus creating new classes of losers in the process.

He knows he is vulnerable too. Vulnerable to the charges of vacuousness and endless negativity. Vulnerable to the charge of being a hollow man, interested only in securing the prize.

Self-evidently, Shorten's practice of giving as little ground to the government as possible while keeping his own powder dry is learned behaviour. It worked brilliantly for Abbott who, now in government, is having it done back to him. And again it is proving devastatingly effective. Just look at the government's paralysis in the Senate."_

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...lly-deserve-to-become-pm-20141209-122qyu.html


----------



## trainspotter (10 December 2014)

Go and read and understand post #298 on this thread please.


----------



## Craton (10 December 2014)

Is Shorten PM material? 

Nope. On top of that and apart from the union connection, until the day I die the Labor party will always have the backstabber label as a reminder to me of how important the bloke in the street really is to them. Winning at all costs is not how a country is governed.


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2014)

The libs will need to look very hard at how labor won the Vic state election as it will most likely be copied across state and federal.


----------



## explod (10 December 2014)

Shorten is not the man going forward, just not convincing in composure ir delivery.

Tony Bourke would be my pick


----------



## So_Cynical (10 December 2014)

Craton said:


> Winning at all costs is not how a country is governed.




Yet thats how it is being governed, by a Noalition Government.

-------

Shorten just dosent seem to have "it"


----------



## noco (21 March 2015)

It would appear the natives in the Labor camp are becoming restless with their "stand for nothing" fearless leader.

The boot might be on the other foot soon with Labor looking for a new leader.

I mean, the man is full empty rhetoric with no national interest in getting Australia out of the mess he and his Green/Labor left wing democratic socialists (communist) party created.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1426896974787


----------



## IFocus (21 March 2015)

noco said:


> It would appear the natives in the Labor camp are becoming restless with their "stand for nothing" fearless leader.
> 
> The boot might be on the other foot soon with Labor looking for a new leader.
> 
> ...





Shorten doesn't have to do a thing as the Abbott train wreck government will no doubt waste another year doing nothing but making press releasers about good government, back grounding and leaking nasty bits at each other and look over there at those bad Labor people.

Drovers dog election coming to you 2016 if Abbott continues.


----------



## noco (21 March 2015)

IFocus said:


> Shorten doesn't have to do a thing as the Abbott train wreck government will no doubt waste another year doing nothing but making press releasers about good government, back grounding and leaking nasty bits at each other and look over there at those bad Labor people.
> 
> Drovers dog election coming to you 2016 if Abbott continues.




Yeah, well the leaks of discontent are starting to show in the Labor camp now.....The Liberal/National are good government trying to clean up the Green/Labor Gillard/Rudd mess but are being hampered by an incompetent Labor senate who have no national interest in the welfare of Australia and its citizens .


----------



## galumay (21 March 2015)

noco said:


> ....The Liberal/National are good government ... .




LOL! You dont hear many people saying that! Even within the hopeless Abbott Government. I dont think there is much doubt they are the worst government we have ever had. I have never expereinced this sort of antipathy for a government in the last 50 years. Its a special type of disgust at them from the electorate.

Mind you I am no fan of Little Bill's, I have known him personally for many years and worked with him when he was Secretary of the AWU. His only hope of becoming PM is simply that Abbott is so incredibly awful that he hands the job over on a platter because if Little Bill has to actually run a campaign the ALP are stuffed.

Its interesting being an Australian overseas at the moment, every where you go, once people realise that you are an Australian they want to discuss just how awful, hateful, mean spirited, anti-humanitarian, racist, sexist etc etc Abbott is. No one mentions Little Bill though, probably because they have never heard anything about or out of him!!


----------



## drsmith (21 March 2015)

galumay said:


> Mind you I am no fan of Little Bill's, I have known him personally for many years and worked with him when he was Secretary of the AWU. His only hope of becoming PM is simply that Abbott is so incredibly awful that he hands the job over on a platter because if Little Bill has to actually run a campaign the ALP are stuffed.



He will if the current government can gain control of the economic narrative but Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey continue to make very hard work of that.


----------



## IFocus (22 March 2015)

galumay said:


> Mind you I am no fan of Little Bill's, I have known him personally for many years and worked with him when he was Secretary of the AWU. His only hope of becoming PM is simply that Abbott is so incredibly awful that he hands the job over on a platter because if Little Bill has to actually run a campaign the ALP are stuffed.
> 
> !




Thanks for the insight I don't rate Shorten, see him as a opportunist bit like Abbott problem is these guys are surrounded by minders and become puppets on a string.

Remember Abbott before Cretlin showed up complete big mouth loser..............still is to a degree I guess


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2015)

Let's remember that the ALP rank and file wanted Albanese, but got Shorten instead because of the caucus/union vote.


Both of them are a bit weak imo, Chris Bowen is probably the best followed by Tony Burke, but it just depends whether they have the power brokers on their side.


----------



## noco (22 March 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's remember that the ALP rank and file wanted Albanese, but got Shorten instead because of the caucus/union vote.
> 
> 
> Both of them are a bit weak imo, Chris Bowen is probably the best followed by Tony Burke, but it just depends whether they have the power brokers on their side.




But Chris Bowen is the shadow treasurer and he did not know what the taxation threshold was of $18,200...then he did not know what the taxation rate was after that threshold....he said it was 15%...wrong again...it is 19% and this bloke wants to be the treasurer.

Sorry to mention it, but Bowen is a staunch member of the Fabian society (communism).


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> L
> 
> Both of them are a bit weak imo, Chris Bowen is probably the best followed by Tony Burke, but it just depends whether they have the power brokers on their side.




I agree with you, they also kept pretty low key, when the knives were flying, unlike Shorten, Albanese and the sisterhood.

It still makes me cringe, thinking about Albanese, blubbering away on tv. Or Shorten on tv pledging his undying support, while looking for the knife he misplaced.


----------



## Tisme (23 March 2015)

noco said:


> But Chris Bowen is the shadow treasurer and he did not know what the taxation threshold was of $18,200...then he did not know what the taxation rate was after that threshold....he said it was 15%...wrong again...it is 19% and this bloke wants to be the treasurer.
> 
> Sorry to mention it, but Bowen is a staunch member of the Fabian society (communism).




What's a threshold and more to the point who cares? 

Every journo wants their own Willisee GST on Hewson Cake moment. I find it a bit weak to tell the truth and that is regardless of who the victim is.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> What's a threshold and more to the point who cares?
> 
> Every journo wants their own Willisee GST on Hewson Cake moment. I find it a bit weak to tell the truth and that is regardless of who the victim is.




Not knowing the GST rate didn't do Palace Chuk any harm did it ?


----------



## noco (23 March 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Not knowing the GST rate didn't do Palace Chuk any harm did it ?




If it had been Abbott or Hockey the media would have pounded it for a week...but because it is Bowen and Palszczuk. they let the ball go through to the keeper.....Of course the ABC is not biased or is it?


----------



## galumay (23 March 2015)

noco said:


> r.....Of course the ABC is not biased or is it?




Even if they are it would only slightly help balance the RWNJ's at the murdoch gutter press.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2015)

galumay said:


> Even if they are it would only slightly help balance the RWNJ's at the murdoch gutter press.




+1.


----------



## noco (23 March 2015)

galumay said:


> Even if they are it would only slightly help balance the RWNJ's at the murdoch gutter press.





The difference is the ABC is funded by the taxpayers and have a charter to fulfill which is to be unbiased....The ABC ignore their charter because they think they are a law unto themselves.....The problem is the ABC is laced with Green/Labor left wing democratic socialists ( communism ).

Murdock is a public company and not under any restrictions.


----------



## galumay (24 March 2015)

noco said:


> ....The problem is the ABC is laced with Green/Labor left wing democratic socialists ( communism ).
> .




You RWNJ's are funny, constantly calling people 'communists' as if that was still a thing.


----------



## noco (24 March 2015)

galumay said:


> You RWNJ's are funny, constantly calling people 'communists' as if that was still a thing.




I can give you a list of the Fabian Society members who are all allied with communism.....You will fined out one day or you can do your own research......The Green/Labor left wing socialist call it democratic socialism....Chris Bowen often refers to it....This really a screen name.

Have a look at this link for a start.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/


----------



## galumay (24 March 2015)

i didnt even bother opening the link, the url told the story! 

Calling people who support the ALP 'communists' is as silly as calling those that support the LNP 'facists'.

I would also be careful about making assumptions about people based on the organisations they belong to, there are LNP people in the H R Nicholls Society and other nasty havens for right wing extremists, there are also plenty who are beholden to the loony religious extremists. 

You might open a can of worms if you go down that path. 

At the end of the day there are a small minority of extremists at both ends of the political spectrum, but they are in no way reflective of the broader organisations. The reality is the ALP, LNP & Greens have more in common than they have in contrast and thats probably a reflection of the laid back aussie style and the tiny number of extremists in our society.


----------



## Ijustnewit (24 March 2015)

noco said:


> I can give you a list of the Fabian Society members who are all allied with communism.....You will fined out one day or you can do your own research......The Green/Labor left wing socialist call it democratic socialism....Chris Bowen often refers to it....This really a screen name.
> 
> Have a look at this link for a start.
> 
> http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/




Interesting reading , says a lot really. It's really amazing how many inner city Green votes this type of saving the planet hype has sucked in. It's all about getting a foot in the door in small numbers and then controlling the masses. Todays Senate is a classic example , what happened in the Victorian election is another. 
The problem with the Greens is they fool the inner city latte sipping consumers into thinking they are saving the planet. Most of these consumers don't really know what the Green agenda really is , unfortunately that's why they have a stronghold in these areas. Saving the Planet under the guise of socialism.


----------



## Tisme (24 March 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> . Most of these consumers don't really know what the Green agenda really is , unfortunately that's why they have a stronghold in these areas.




I must admit I don't know what the agenda is either, but I'm starting to think it's not about cheesecloth tops and Roman sandals?


----------



## Knobby22 (24 March 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> Interesting reading , says a lot really. It's really amazing how many inner city Green votes this type of saving the planet hype has sucked in. It's all about getting a foot in the door in small numbers and then controlling the masses. Todays Senate is a classic example , what happened in the Victorian election is another.
> The problem with the Greens is they fool the inner city latte sipping consumers into thinking they are saving the planet. Most of these consumers don't really know what the Green agenda really is , unfortunately that's why they have a stronghold in these areas. Saving the Planet under the guise of socialism.




I don't think that's really true.
I work with four Green voters (in an office of 12). Two are vegetarians that would like to control our lives and are very into socialism etc. They enforce their values with others over social media etc. There are even politically correct clubs to go to etc. where they ensure all the beer is organic. In Melbourne, Labor are very scared of the Greens. I personally dislike their thinking but like ISIS it is very attractive to some.


----------



## noco (25 March 2015)

Shorten stands for nothing.....he has no idea  how to fix the budget and I am more than convinced he will never be Prime Minister.
He evaded the important questions presented by John Faine,  and even Virginia Tripoli on the 7.30 report tonight.
I agree with everything he said even though I don't know what he said...or did he saying anything constructive....his brain is dead.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...omments/what_does_bill_shorten_truly_believe/


----------



## drsmith (25 March 2015)

noco said:


> He evaded the important questions presented by John Faine,  and even Virginia Tripoli on the 7.30 report tonight.



Did you see the dopy expression on his face at the start of that interview ?

The camera must have started rolling a second or so before he expected it to.

His body language during that interview suggested to me that he didn't want to be there which is surprising for a leader who's constantly ahead in the polls. If this week's Newspoll has deflated him that much, he's going to find any serious scrutiny very difficult indeed.

Near the end of that interview came this gem,



> I'm not like Tony Abbott. I don't have a thought bubble and then turn it into policy, *then if there's a vote for a spill and a leadership, I might go a different way.*




Both Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard might beg to differ.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4204889.htm

My bolds.


----------



## Tink (26 March 2015)

Agree, Ijustnewit and Knobby.

They have an article in the ABC about increasing population and infrastructure having to keep up, and we have just stopped a road, thanks to the Greens and Labor.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...lic-spending-lags/6348232?WT.ac=statenews_vic

As you said, Knobby, if the Greens had their way, everything would be shut.

Melbourne Cup, Grand Prix etc etc...


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2015)

Tink said:


> Agree, Ijustnewit and Knobby.
> 
> They have an article in the ABC about increasing population and infrastructure having to keep up, and we have just stopped a road, thanks to the Greens and Labor.
> 
> ...




Should think about developing a metropolis in the middle of Australia..... some man made lakes and use the spoil to build hills where the elite can in turn build their homes.  Make the hills high enough and a micro climate will eventuate.


----------



## noco (26 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> Did you see the dopy expression on his face at the start of that interview ?
> 
> The camera must have started rolling a second or so before he expected it to.
> 
> ...




Doc, I really think he is trying to avoid the media because the more interviews he has, the more he makes a goat of himself
I would dearly like to see him  face up to Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt....But of course he does not have the gutz.


----------



## explod (26 March 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, I really think he is trying to avoid the media because the more interviews he has, the more he makes a goat of himself
> I would dearly like to see him  face up to Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt....But of course he does not have the gutz.




The task is against the (r) abbit,  which is easy. 

Jones and Bolt are just rabbiters. 

Shorten at least puts up some ideas with content.   You and Abbott do not seem to know what that means noco. 

After WW2 the government set up and fully funded the Soldier Settlement Commission for those returning from the war.   Such a scheme today you would call socialist noco.   But it made this country great.  

We could do this again,  stop live exports,  build our own submarines,  stop importing cheap scrappy food. 

Noted yesterday a wealthy businessman states anyone earning more than a million a year should pay no less than 50% tax. 

Coommorrrn noco,  where under the libs are the jobs coming from.


----------



## Boggo (26 March 2015)

explod said:


> ...
> Shorten at least puts up some ideas with content.




Is this one of them ?


----------



## noco (26 March 2015)

explod said:


> The task is against the (r) abbit,  which is easy.
> 
> Jones and Bolt are just rabbiters.
> 
> ...




explod, firstly, the Soldier Resettlement commission was set up after WW1 and continued after WW11...So you must get your facts right first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier_settlement_(Australia)

STOP LIVE CATTLE EXPORTS? Labor's Ludwig did that and created havoc among cattle farmers including many suicides.....He also almost killed our good relationship with Indonesia...Ludwig and Labor also killed off may thousand of jobs.....Where are the jobs coming from when Labor destroys them.

BUILD OUR OWN SUBMARINES???? It is estimated the subs would cost 4 times as much if completely designed and built in Australia and on top of that the unions would be in control with strikes and higher wages.....And don't forget the last 3 ships Labor acquired between 2007/2013 were purchased overseas.

STOP IMPORTING CHEAP SCRAPPY FOODS!....That is one thing I do agree with you.....My super market has two brands of tinned pineapple on their shelves.....one from Indonesia and one from the Philippines....We grow pineapples here in Australia by the millions of tonnes...now why can't we canned them here in Australia?....Labour costs which would probably make the local canned pineapple twice the price which would add to inflation in the cost of living.....Or perhaps you would like to see the current government subsidize that industry.

Tax the wealthy earning more than $1million per year at 50%.....Great idea of yours but then those wealthy people would have less to invest in business to create jobs.

Where are the jobs coming from??????The Victorian government want to destroy 7000 jobs so perhaps you should ask Daniel Andrews where he will place those lost 7000 jobs by scrapping the East/West link?


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2015)

noco said:


> Tax the wealthy earning more than $1million per year at 50%.....Great idea of yours but then those wealthy people would have less to invest in business to create jobs.



The Greens might now want a higher rate than that given that the current marginal rate for taxable income above $180k is already 49%.


----------



## noco (26 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> The Greens might now want a higher rate than that given that the current marginal rate for taxable income above $180k is already 49%.




Well Doc, explod's theory of 50% tax on the wealthy has been shot to pieces...An extra 1% wow.


----------



## explod (26 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> The Greens might now want a higher rate than that given that the current marginal rate for taxable income above $180k is already 49%.




Agree and have often been in that bracket. 

What we are referring too are business deductions,  offshore protections,  fuel excise protections and one can go on. 

However the real points raised on for example the government programms of the early 1950's no one wants to consider.  Get off your backsides and think.  Rest his soul,  Malcolm Fraser did.

And having grown up on my Dad's Soldier settlement farm was well aware of the scheme being in since WW1 (finicky) 

There were also issues of drought and exchange rates effecting farmers back then.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2015)

Shorten is an idiot,IMO, left over from the last idiot Labor Government. The Resource rent tax was a perfect example, tax them on super profits, when they have super prices, how stupid is that.

When they brought it out, I'm sure I said Barnett's idea of increasing royalties on tonnage removed, was a much better idea.
Twiggy Forrest wouldn't have a problem now, neither would the government, if the tax was on the tonnage it would have made them factor that into the price.
Rather than just ramp up recovery rates, to make up the shortfall in price, the more they dig up the more tax they would pay.
Just my take on it.


----------



## noco (28 March 2015)

Well,well,well. I never thought I would ever see the avid supporter of Labor ( Laurie Oaks) criticize his mate Bill Shorten.....Obviously Laurie has seen the light of day with Shorten and  his beloved Labor Party. 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...sw-election-heat/story-fni0fha6-1227281889691

Note : The initials of Bill Shorten also stands for another well known saying.


----------



## noco (17 April 2015)

I happened to tune in to ABC 24 at lunch time today only to have to listen to the free plug the ABC gave Bill Shorten.

He raved on with his boring rhetoric in his melodious voice about Abbott, Abbott, Abbott.

Bill this is Labor's year of new ideas and with 1/3 of the year nearly gone, and not  one sensible idea has come out of your mouth 

How about telling us how you will pay back the debt your comrade Gillard left behind.......

Bill you were asked ten times on one interview and you evaded the question each time...your answer each time was, "yes I will get to that soon but there are other more important issues to discuss first".

And this bloke wants to be the alternative Prime Minister.


----------



## IFocus (17 April 2015)

noco said:


> I happened to tune in to ABC 24 at lunch time today only to have to listen to the free plug the ABC gave Bill Shorten.
> 
> He raved on with his boring rhetoric in his melodious voice about Abbott, Abbott, Abbott.
> 
> ...




I agree Noco he should at least lay out his plan for the future for Australia...................just like Abbott did in opposition............equals nothing.

The thing is Shorten is not forced to lift a finger or do a thing Abbott and his bunch of right wing cronies are destroying the Liberal Party brand and handing the government straight to Labor.

The sheer incompetence of this lot defies ones imaginations as many rusted on Liberals I know just shake their heads in disbelief.


----------



## noco (17 April 2015)

IFocus said:


> I agree Noco he should at least lay out his plan for the future for Australia...................just like Abbott did in opposition............equals nothing.
> 
> The thing is Shorten is not forced to lift a finger or do a thing Abbott and his bunch of right wing cronies are destroying the Liberal Party brand and handing the government straight to Labor.
> 
> The sheer incompetence of this lot defies ones imaginations as many rusted on Liberals I know just shake their heads in disbelief.




Your comrades in Victoria and Queensland will help Tony Abbott in  2016.....Those two states are shaping up to be the typical Green/Labor left wing socialist debacle.

Don't tell me you are impressed with Andrews and Palaszczuk.


----------



## Tisme (18 April 2015)

IFocus said:


> ........
> 
> The thing is Shorten is not forced to lift a finger or do a thing Abbott and his bunch of right wing cronies are destroying the Liberal Party brand and handing the government straight to Labor.
> 
> The sheer incompetence of this lot defies ones imaginations as many rusted on Liberals I know just shake their heads in disbelief.




Yes and yes.

However there is still those Pauper Princes out there who have nothing in common with the LP, but are the fortress voting block, irregardless of the imbeciles they feel compelled to vote for.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> However there is still those Pauper Princes out there who have nothing in common with the LP, but are the fortress voting block, irregardless of the imbeciles they feel compelled to vote for.




Who do you mean by "Pauper Princes" ?


----------



## IFocus (18 April 2015)

noco said:


> Your comrades in Victoria and Queensland will help Tony Abbott in  2016.....Those two states are shaping up to be the typical Green/Labor left wing socialist debacle.
> 
> Don't tell me you are impressed with Andrews and Palaszczuk.




Certainly Abbott is so far on the nose that he handed those states to Labor.

Newman threw his government away with arrogance (similar to Abbott) and Victoria is polling terribly for the Liberals I think Andrews and Palaszczuk have plenty of room to move. 

WA has fallen and will also head back to Labor federally which is a massive yard stick / dead canary  since its been a Liberal strong hold for so long.

The Abbott government is so bad no body is even bothering to comment.

I don't expect Shorten will want to distract this mob from further self annihilation by talking about any thing, even sense.


----------



## drsmith (18 April 2015)

Perhaps Bill Shorten's performing so badly that no one's bothering to comment.

This thread at the moment seems to be more about the government and the PM despite it bearing the name of the opposition leader.


----------



## IFocus (18 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> Perhaps Bill Shorten's performing so badly that no one's bothering to comment.
> 
> This thread at the moment seems to be more about the government and the PM despite it bearing the name of the opposition leader.




I agree Re Shorten performance he is never going to set the world on fire but there is no way he or any future leader Liberal or Labor will be as bad as Abbott.


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2015)

Look out Bill,



> Wayne Swan's decision to renominate for another term in Parliament has sparked fear amongst his colleagues about his leadership intentions and prompted one long-time supporter to publicly call for the former Treasurer's immediate resignation.
> 
> Several Labor insiders have told Fairfax Media they fear Mr Swan is attempting to engineer his own return to the frontbench as well as helping install Tanya Plibersek as leader in the long term.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...me-friend-cameron-milner-20150419-1mnnj3.html


----------



## noco (19 April 2015)

IFocus said:


> I agree Re Shorten performance he is never going to set the world on fire but there is no way he or any future leader Liberal or Labor will be as bad as Abbott.




You seem to have forgotten how bad Gillard and Rudd were......very short memory


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2015)

noco said:


> You seem to have forgotten how bad Gillard and Rudd were......



And with Mr Surplus as their treasurer and he's still there, lurking in the catacombs.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2015)

IFocus said:


> Certainly Abbott is so far on the nose that he handed those states to Labor.
> 
> Newman threw his government away with arrogance (similar to Abbott) and Victoria is polling terribly for the Liberals I think Andrews and Palaszczuk have plenty of room to move.
> 
> ...




You're starting to sound like Sir Lancelot at the wedding reception, in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail", a bit demented a bit delusional and completely senseless.


----------



## Tisme (20 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Who do you mean by "Pauper Princes" ?




You know, those people who think they are frustrated wannabe moderately well heeled, but actually working class. The wealth may be elusive, but the perverse spiritual linkage survives, even it means at the extremes the family suffers financially through refusal of social welfare. What's the other term "middle class bogans"?

At the moment I'm thinking there are plenty of those people, aka Tetterby families, who have a daily touch from Pof. Redlaw (News Corp) to forget that it is Abbott in govt and not Shorten. It is Abbott who is to be held to account for the running of the country, that is what he's being paid for. Shorten is not the PM nor running around the world talking down our country like Abbott did....lest we forget.


----------



## noco (20 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> You know, those people who think they are frustrated wannabe moderately well heeled, but actually working class. The wealth may be elusive, but the perverse spiritual linkage survives, even it means at the extremes the family suffers financially through refusal of social welfare. What's the other term "middle class bogans"?
> 
> At the moment I'm thinking there are plenty of those people, aka Tetterby families, who have a daily touch from Pof. Redlaw (News Corp) to forget that it is Abbott in govt and not Shorten. It is Abbott who is to be held to account for the running of the country, that is what he's being paid for. Shorten is not the PM nor running around the world talking down our country like Abbott did....lest we forget.




Tisme, do you know how to write things in plain English instead of all these riddles...A lot of your posts just don't make sense....It is sort of like nutter talk.


----------



## noco (21 April 2015)

Shorten makes a gaff over the middle East and I have not heard a word about from the ABC.

I guess if it was Abbott, the ABC would hammered it from daylight 'till dark.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...312556709?sv=4ec32f6b78b3354501ea2f5071fa535e


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2015)

At least this time he knew what was said,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp11QhGaYpA


----------



## noco (2 May 2015)

Is Shorten PM material?

Not according to his deputy Tania Plebersek who appears to be showing muscle over poor old Bill.

We may see another Gillard like midnight back stabbing....Watch your back Bill boy.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1430532513076


----------



## noco (13 May 2015)

This the second interview I have watched whereby this man who wants to be the alternative Prime Minister does not have the gutz to answer a straight question.
What is he frightened of by not admitting his Green.Labor socialist party racked up such a high debt and deficit.
The majority of voters know the answer.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1431499644977


----------



## Tisme (14 May 2015)

One thing a powerful union leader doesn't suffer is fear. You don't get into the top echelons of that movement by being a wilting flower. It's harder to be where Bill was in the unions than it is to get a bum on seat with a political party.

Shorten has no intention of showing his cards while he sees the rope unwinding within the LNP; enough rope to hang themselves. Why would anyone with a brain do otherwise.


----------



## noco (14 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> One thing a powerful union leader doesn't suffer is fear. You don't get into the top echelons of that movement by being a wilting flower. It's harder to be where Bill was in the unions than it is to get a bum on seat with a political party.
> 
> Shorten has no intention of showing his cards while he sees the rope unwinding within the LNP; enough rope to hang themselves. Why would anyone with a brain do otherwise.




Time will tell.....you may have to eat those words sooner than you expect.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> One thing a powerful union leader doesn't suffer is fear. You don't get into the top echelons of that movement by being a wilting flower. It's harder to be where Bill was in the unions than it is to get a bum on seat with a political party.
> 
> Shorten has no intention of showing his cards while he sees the rope unwinding within the LNP; enough rope to hang themselves. Why would anyone with a brain do otherwise.




Your right they don't suffer from fear, some suffer from conscience, principals and morals. Lots left last election.

Shorten showed his underlying beliefs, in the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd, knifing excercise.


----------



## noco (14 May 2015)

Shortens budget reply tonight was absolutely atrocious.......He left a $52 billion black hole over spending to income and he did not address how he would reduce the debt and deficit left by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd.
As usual, he was full of rhetoric and no substance......


----------



## dutchie (15 May 2015)

Is Bill PM material - he sure is if he's a Labor PM 


LEIGH SALES: Let me ask you about the National Disability Insurance Scheme… The spending is all heavily backloaded. The cost of it will rise tens of billions of dollars up to the end of the decade. Where’s that money coming from?… The Medicare levy would have to go up to 5.5 per cent to cover the cost of it… Well how are you going to cover it?

BILL SHORTEN: Alright, I’ll just try and answer your question. What I believe is that there’s - we can’t afford not to have a National Disability Insurance Scheme. I believe that we already have a highly inefficient system, states and crisis dictating priorities. Right now, as we talk to each other on television, you’ve got tens of thousands of older Australians having that sort of late-night anxiety about who’s going to care for their adult child…

LEIGH SALES: Well Mr Shorten, I don’t doubt what you’re saying there, but aren’t you short-changing those very people that you’re talking about if you can’t outline how you intend to fund exactly what you say they so desperately need?



How do you fund the NDIS - with we can't afford not to have it.

Brilliant Bill. Running the country is just so easy.


----------



## noco (15 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> Is Bill PM material - he sure is if he's a Labor PM
> 
> 
> LEIGH SALES: Let me ask you about the National Disability Insurance Scheme… The spending is all heavily backloaded. The cost of it will rise tens of billions of dollars up to the end of the decade. Where’s that money coming from?… The Medicare levy would have to go up to 5.5 per cent to cover the cost of it… Well how are you going to cover it?
> ...





A magic pudding? Bill Shorten tonight promised massive new spending, but failed to tell us how he’d pay for it. Labor would create debt and deficits as far as the eye can see.


----------



## noco (18 May 2015)

If only Bill Shorten would do a simple maths course, he may well understand the workings of our economy......As Rowan Dean points out Shorten is an economic illiterate and has no understanding economic principles....Bill is a big spender and has no idea where the money will come from to pay for his thought bubbles. 



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nomic-principles/story-fnihsr9v-1227358177622

*Meanwhile, Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen are the Laurel and Hardy of Australian politics: two mischief-makers and cheap tricksters who, if they ever get their hands on the levers of our economy, will bring the whole edifice crashing down around us in spectacularly slapstick fashion.

They’ve already begun.

Shorten’s Budget reply speech reads like a comedy script. Anybody who takes a word of it seriously is either a gullible fool or a deliberate con-merchant. It beggars belief that the response from the gallery wasn’t side-splitting laughter rather than rent-a-crowd applause. But firstly, let’s rewind. Last Tuesday, Hockey delivered his second Budget.*

Look out Billy boy, Tony is biting at your heels.....Abbott is now the preferred Prime Minister and I wonder why?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...os_poll_stunning_recovery_continues_to_50_50/


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2015)

noco said:


> Meanwhile, Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen are the Laurel and Hardy of Australian politics: two mischief-makers and cheap tricksters who, if they ever get their hands on the levers of our economy, will bring the whole edifice crashing down around us in spectacularly slapstick fashion.




And so says Christopher Dore, the henchman extraordinaire of news Corp, who supposedly thinks the more he bashes the ALP the closer he will come to his holiness Rupert Murdoch. His over the top zeal as an LNP lapdog cost his mates the state election, but he still hasn't figured that out yet, being so rapt in his own importance as the praetorian guard of all things righteous.


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2015)

noco said:


> A magic pudding? Bill Shorten tonight promised massive new spending, but failed to tell us how he’d pay for it. Labor would create debt and deficits as far as the eye can see.




Well then nothing will change will it ...Liberal or Labor.

I'm starting to think Clive is not the maniac he appears. Which brings me to that subject about the Chinese company suing him and all those on the bandwagon hoping he would fall off the cliff....how did that turnout?


----------



## noco (18 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well then nothing will change will it ...Liberal or Labor.
> 
> I'm starting to think Clive is not the maniac he appears. Which brings me to that subject about the Chinese company suing him and all those on the bandwagon hoping he would fall off the cliff....how did that turnout?





Clive Palmer has already fallen off the cliff.....He said himself he will not contest any seats at the next Federal election and he himself will not be re-elected......He is a gone coon.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2015)

Well we did say Bill just doesn't have it, the lefties thought we were just taking cheap shots, well most people agree with us.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...ugh-with-middleaustralia-20150520-gh61q9.html

Labor have lost the plot, it is o.k fighting for a welfare dependent country, but someone has to pay for it.

Guess what, that is the majority. 

The majority are getting loaded up more and more, supporting an ever increasing welfare system.

Meanwhile they are being told, there is no way they will ever get any, so suck it up. 

Best of luck selling that, Abbott's last budget proved, we have moved on past that ideology .

God knows how you can aspire to a Country of endeavour and achievement, when you constantly criticise the middle class and promote welfare dependency.

This is going to become a real issue. IMO 

Go Bill go.lol


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2015)

Luckily for the LNP, if the union thug Shorten is ever rolled, the stupid (lets have another Carbon Tax) Bowen would be next in line. Lol.
As for Plibersek just think Gillard.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> Is Bill PM material - he sure is if he's a Labor PM
> 
> 
> LEIGH SALES: Let me ask you about the National Disability Insurance Scheme… The spending is all heavily backloaded. The cost of it will rise tens of billions of dollars up to the end of the decade. Where’s that money coming from?… The Medicare levy would have to go up to 5.5 per cent to cover the cost of it… Well how are you going to cover it?
> ...




Lets remember that Tony Abbott was on a "unity ticket" with Labor over the NDIS, so why not ask Abbott the same questions about funding ?


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> Luckily for the LNP, if the union thug Shorten is ever rolled, the stupid (lets have another Carbon Tax) Bowen would be next in line. Lol.
> As for Plibersek just think Gillard.




Tanya has that awful tick where she rolls her eyes skyward like an omnipotent mother when trying to make a point. To me it sends a message that she has no intention of engaging in debate because of it ... her way or the highway.


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Lets remember that Tony Abbott was on a "unity ticket" with Labor over the NDIS, so why not ask Abbott the same questions about funding ?




Yes, why not ask him.

Get on to the ABC and complain, SirRumpole, because they never ask the Coalition any hard questions.


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> Yes, why not ask him.
> 
> Get on to the ABC and complain, SirRumpole, because they never ask the Coalition any hard questions.




Hard interviewing to one camp is always a joy to the other when it comes to politicians. I don't know why anyone defends a politician of any colour if he/she can't engage with the topic they are supposed to know. If there's a curve ball they should just say they don't know the answer, but happy to respond later. I'm pretty sure no one puts a gun to the heads of the idiots who think they can match it with the take no prisoner professionals like Leigh, Emma, et al.

I can still hear the gaffaws from the LNP fan base as Alan Jones ripped into Gillard, sending any shred of respect for the office to the toilet. Having intellectual pigmies like Jones, Bolt, etc carrying the torch for the LNP, brands the LNP as second rate by association and thinking people can't help themselves but tear into nincompoops.


----------



## trainspotter (21 May 2015)

Just gotta love the "Fairfax" way of letting it be known which lien they are taking on this one ...



> Tony Abbott may be personally unpopular among middle-ground voters but the group that broke from the ALP at the 2013 election is not coming back to Bill Shorten, with many regarding him as a ranting puppet obsessed with political point scoring, and lacking in charisma.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ugh-with-middleaustralia-20150520-gh61q9.html


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> I can still hear the gaffaws from the LNP fan base as Alan Jones ripped into Gillard, sending any shred of respect for the office to the toilet.




Self inflicted disrespect is always worth guffawing.


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> Self inflicted disrespect is always worth guffawing.




Not sure that forgives Alan Jones' childish behaviour. But then I didn't like the way Pauline and Clive were treated either.


----------



## noco (26 May 2015)

Is Bill Shorten Prime Minister material?

Not according to past Labor stalwart and union leader Michael Costa.....


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ments/michael_costa_bill_shorten_is_finished/

* “Shorten, like recently departed UK Labour leader Ed Miliband, is a creature of an out of touch and unrepresentative union movement that not only dominates the political structures of Labor but more and more forces an ideological straitjacket on Labor’s economic policy formulation,” he said…

“Special-interest politics has pushed Labor further and further away from the political centre. The Labor left now firmly controls Labor’s policy agenda.”*


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2015)

noco said:


> Is Bill Shorten Prime Minister material?
> 
> Not according to past Labor stalwart and union leader Michael Costa.....
> 
> ...




This has become a huge problem for Labor, the highly unionised therefore highly paid, highly secure jobs are diminishing.

Much more of the workforce is now covered by, a paid by ability culture, which conflicts with Labors ethos.


----------



## noco (12 June 2015)

Is Billl Shorten Prime minister material??????

Well, if he was to look after the working Mums and Dads of Australia  like he looks after the AWU union members, I cannot see how he could possibly win that award......He just might be looking for a new job next week....The only bloke Shorten looks after is himself...What a grub.

He has ripped of the cleaners and denied them their penalty rates on weekends all in the name of power to bolster his own standing with increased union membership.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...393871486?sv=57e71743eaf110cd744e37164278b28c

*The Opposition Leader yesterday provided his strongest comments yet in response to claims he presided over an arrangement under which building company *Winslow Constructors paid his former union hundreds of thousands of dollars in members’ dues.

Documents provided to the trade union royal commission show the AWU Victorian branch invoiced Winslow Constructors for $38,228.68 to pay for 105 union memberships in 2005.

Further documents indicate the payments continued the next financial year and there were claims the practice helped to bolster AWU membership numbers and Mr Shorten’s factional power.

Mr Shorten refused to comment on the integrity of having companies pay members’ dues but defended his record and left open the door to appearing before the royal commission.*


----------



## dutchie (12 June 2015)

Shorten says he always looked after the union members.

Being paid $18/ hour is a lot better than being paid $45/ hour.


----------



## noco (12 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten says he always looked after the union members.
> 
> Being paid $18/ hour is a lot better than being paid $45/ hour.




That should wipe that stupid grin off his face.


----------



## noco (12 June 2015)

The man is a compulsive liar......He says he only thinks of fairness for the AWU union members and then documentary evidence turns up to prove the contrary.
The agreement with Cleanevent was engineered by Shorten and then extended by his successor. 

Am looking forward to the next poll to see who would make the better Prime Minister and the the next two party preferred poll.....We might yet see a DD before Xmas. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...shortens-bluster/story-fnkdypbm-1227393710291


----------



## noco (13 June 2015)

I think Mr.Shorten is digging a hole so deep for himself that he may find it hard to clamber out of it.....He keeps contradicting himself for what he stands for and what he has actually done. 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...395538954?sv=31d227765fb9b7a33255b3405c10a82f

*TEN QUESTIONS FOR BILL SHORTEN*

* 1) Can you guarantee that under your leadership of the AWU, the union did not take a cheque from an employer for union dues without signed application forms from workers, as you told the Cole Royal Commission in 2002, and that the 
workers knew they were being signed up and were happy for the employer to pay their dues? 

 2)   Can you guarantee that no worker was worse off as a result of your leadership of the AWU given: 1. Former Cleanevent HR manager Michael Robinson has given sworn evidence the 2006 enterprise bargaining agreement was “extremely favourable to Cleanevent” (allowing its workers to be paid $18 an hour  in some circumstances  compared with $45 for 
competitors); 2. Cesar Melhem has agreed this was a poor deal for workers; and 3) the AWU’s admission to the Fair Work Commission yesterday that it was in workers’ interests for the 2006 EBA to be terminated?

 3)   You signed off on the 2004 Cleanevent EBA which formed the basis of the 
2006 EBA and in turn the controversial 2010 EBA. At the time of the 2004 
EBA or at any time of your AWU tenure did Cleanevent make payments to the 
AWU for any purpose ,  including that of paying union fees for employees?

4)    Do you agree with current AWU secretary Ben Davis that deals where 
employers pay for union memberships weaken the union’s industrial position?

5)    Do you regret signing Cesar Melhem’s preselection form?

6)    Under your leadership were you aware of any instances of different
names or entries on invoices being given to payments by companies for AWU 
memberships , for example cases where membership fees were labelled
“training”  fees ?

7)    Under your leadership were you aware of any instances of the practice whereby 
the AWU signed up members without their knowledge?

8)    Did the netballers who became AWU members as a result of the alliance with the 
Australian Netball Players Association know they were being signed up and did 
they pay individually or did the ANPA pay their dues?

9)    When the AWU first negotiated an arrangement 
with the Australian Jockeys Association when you 
were secretary, did any money change hands 
and, if so, what for?

10)    Did jockey s  including Peter Mertens, 
Greg Childs, Steven King, Kerrin McEvoy 
agree to becoming  AWU  members or know 
they had been signed up? *


----------



## dutchie (13 June 2015)

noco said:


> I think Mr.Shorten is digging a hole so deep for himself that he may find it hard to clamber out of it.....He keeps contradicting himself for what he stands for and what he has actually done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





For answers see Gillard responses in previous Union Corruption investigations (bit of a pattern here??).

Either,

1. I know nothing (Schultz defence)

2. I can't recall (lose of memory defence)

3. I have already answered these questions extensively previously (Gillard defence)

Any or all of these can be used for any one of those questions.


----------



## noco (13 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> For answers see Gillard responses in previous Union Corruption investigations (bit of a pattern here??).
> 
> Either,
> 
> ...




I think in the Bill Shorten case, the Royal Commission has has signed documentary evidence....Shorten's signature is very clear on the agreement with Cleanevent and that agreement is certainly not favourable to the employees.
It also disadvantaged Clearevent's competitors who had to pay their employees $27 to $28 per hour in comparison to Clearevents payment to their employees of $18 per hour.

I find it will be hard for Shorten to use the Gillard tactic.....Gillrad was a lot more clever than Shorten.


----------



## Tink (14 June 2015)

*Bill Shorten's predicament  *

_Bill Shorten yesterday gave a defiant press conference.

Reporters asked inconvenient questions about alleged sweetheart deals with bosses and Shorten replied confidently: “I can guarantee, about any of the matters, that we always improved workers’ conditions, full stop.”

Shorten may come to regret this bluster. I wonder how many people were, within 10 minutes of its being made, downloading deals he signed and getting out their *calculators.

The 2004 Cleanevent enterprise agreement is signed by Shorten. It is a document that benefits the employer and disadvantages some workers.

The agreement allows for a cheap way for the employer to work staff around the clock, for up to 12 hours at a time, and up to 60 hours a week, without award penalties or loadings.

People from the union movement are constantly reminding us that low-paid workers rely on their penalties and loadings to get by. Loadings and penalties, when a person is on low wages, often make up a third of a person’s pay packet.

GRAPHIC: Shorten’s Cleanevent EBA 2004

We know many low-paid workers need to work very long hours just to get by.

Many of the Cleanevent workers would have been better off staying on the minimum wage and receiving penalties as prescribed under their award than working under Shorten’s enterprise bargaining agreement.

Any union official would have known workers would likely experience losses under the deal. Indeed, a special clause says where employees feel they have “reasonable grounds” for believing they have suffered “overall disadvantage in comparison to the award” an audit will occur and the employee can “consult” with the union and the company about it.

Although this clause appears to protect people, it is actually sinister, a red flag to the experienced eye. There should be no cause or reason to even put a clause like this in an agreement.

Who determines whether the person’s feeling is reasonable? Where does a person turn if the union won’t help? If any worker summoned the courage to speak up, this clause suggests the only option is to keep the complaint in-house, with the company and the union having the final say rather than the appropriate authorities.

A cursory analysis of the agreement disproves Shorten’s claim that he *“always improved workers’ conditions”.

Worse, when it expired, it was replaced under his leadership by a deal that fully exploited Work Choices to remove an alleged further $2 million a year in penalties from workers’ pay packets.
_
http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...shortens-bluster/story-fnkdypbm-1227393710291


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

The legacy of Kevin's leadership rules are that anyone now elected by the rank and file feels far too secure, whereas in the past the knife in the back kept the pace moving and assertive.

Bill is a pipe and slippers kind of guy, who portrays himself as the calm in a tempestuous sea. I'd rather see him spit and vitriol like a Keating, if only for the entertainment value; for instance promising a sham royal commission into Liberal members and their political nurseries (including the beloved Northshore Catholic diocese), same as the propaganda witch hunt forced on Gillard, Rudd, Bligh and the Labor Party in general, using out taxpayer monies once again. John Howard with his lies on Iraq, children overboard, etc could be the first in the cauldron.


----------



## noco (17 June 2015)

My oh my, how the wheels turn in the Labor Party !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is this the beginning of the end for Bill Shorten?
It certainly looks like Gillard is after revenge......the venom is being spat out by her tongue in such a vicious manner.

You can't trust Bill Shorten...full stop.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...401176566?sv=eb9582f97b9d54bd824e9ab7c1e0f476


----------



## drsmith (17 June 2015)

Fairfax press December 13 last year,



> Eyes on the prize: would-be PM Bill Shorten








http://www.theage.com.au/good-weekend/eyes-on-the-prize-wouldbe-pm-bill-shorten-20141212-11xjqv.html

Fairfax press today,



> Bill Shorten's union took hundreds of thousands from building company




The following at the bottom of the article reads like the last rites,



> Bill Shorten - Australia's alternative Prime Minister - is one of Australia's best known faces but least defined characters. Fairfax reporters Royce Millar and Ben Schneiders have dug deep to investigate the Opposition Leader's past and present, exploring his character, his politics, his allegiances, and the deals that have put him so close to power. The explosive results of that investigation will be revealed over the next four days.




http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/bill...ds-from-building-company-20150617-ghq5si.html


----------



## dutchie (18 June 2015)

Bill is gooooooorn.


----------



## noco (18 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Bill is gooooooorn.




Poor little Billy...He has had a bad week at the office and his comrades are not happy.


----------



## trainspotter (18 June 2015)

Bill Shorten last week "The Government must come clean on paying people smugglers" 

Bill Shorten this week "It was common for companies to make payments (to unions) for things like occupational health and safety training and trade training"

Bill Shorten next week "Et tu, Brute"


----------



## Knobby22 (18 June 2015)

That Fairfax press. Another expose. Without fear or favour.


----------



## moXJO (18 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Fairfax press December 13 last year,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pffft  Heres the real news



What is it with labor leaders.


----------



## trainspotter (18 June 2015)

Mammy's little baby loves Shorten bread ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v5rsEa9vUI

Three little children, lying in bed 
Two was sick an' the other 'most dead 
Sent for the doctor, the doctor said 
Give those children some Shortenin' bread


----------



## pilots (18 June 2015)

Billy boys GONE, when you see the ABCs 7.30 REPORT: heap poo on billy boy you know he's GONE.


----------



## trainspotter (19 June 2015)

Tell your story walking mister Shorten....



> *BILL Shorten's future depends on how he performs at the unions royal commission, says a senior Labor figure.*
> THE federal opposition leader has agreed to front the inquiry on July 8 during parliament's winter break, rather than August or September as previously scheduled.
> Former Queensland premier Peter Beattie said it would be an important test for Mr Shorten.
> "If at the end, under oath, he can't answer the questions then he is politically finished. No doubt about it," Mr Beattie told the Seven Network on Friday.




http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...-union-questions/story-e6frfku9-1227405158161


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Tell your story walking mister Shorten....
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...-union-questions/story-e6frfku9-1227405158161




Mr Shorten is going to struggle to satisfy the RC.....He has too much stacked against him with documentary evidence....
\How can he prove that workers were not disadvantaged?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...406509452?sv=f691a09ea8791649d19ee4936d412df7

*Recently, in the Heydon royal commission, emails between an employer and the AWU were read out. The parties haggled back and forth over the price of then secretary Paul Howes’s signature on a document that would save the company $2 million a year in labour costs. When the price was agreed at $25,000, the executive wrote back to the AWU chap, “Sweet, mate, can you send me the details of who and where to send cheque to?” This conduct is indefensible and I challenge anyone out there to defend*


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

Shorten has only himself to blame for the problems confronting his future.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...f-his-own-making/story-e6frg6z6-1227406536387

*Shorten has no such simple answer in trying to stem the flow of political misjudgments. Labor started the work with an all-out attack on the government over allegations the Australian Secret Intelligence Service paid people- smugglers to turn back boats to *Indonesia but ran into a brick wall when it was disclosed Labor has set aside at least $21 million for such “disruption” payments during the Rudd and Gillard governments.

Shorten was reduced to a hairsplitting argument that Labor may have paid money to people-smugglers on land but hadn’t done so to turn back a boat. He looked ridiculous and beat a retreat.

The bigger issue for questioning Shorten’s judgment this week was his decision to oppose the $2.4 billion pension savings from the 2015 budget. After back-pedalling on cuts in the previous budget, the Coalition came up with sensible cuts to part-pension payments for those with assets of $1m over and above the family home.

Labor’s opposition cost it economic credibility and an ability to be able to claw back some of the $41bn in savings it has to find. That the Greens did a deal within hours of Labor’s announcement only doubled the pain for Labor.

But still there was no damaging outbreak of leaks from Labor. The simple fact is that Labor doesn’t want the leadership to change, it wants the leader to change.*


----------



## dutchie (21 June 2015)

Cassidy to interview Shorten on Insiders today (9.00 am).

How hard will he go?


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Cassidy to interview Shorten on Insiders today (9.00 am).
> 
> How hard will he go?





Very softly indeed......Cassidy let him have the floor......What else would you  expect from Cassidy.....All Shorten had to say was it always gave workers a good deal and pigs might fly as we all know.

Get on him the Bolt report and it will a different story but Shorten is too much of a coward to front Bolt.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 June 2015)

noco said:


> Get on him the Bolt report and it will a different story but Shorten is too much of a coward to front Bolt.




Funny, I've never seen Abbott on Insiders either.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny, I've never seen Abbott on Insiders either.




http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3838363.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4006775.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4049697.htm


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3838363.htm
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4006775.htm
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4049697.htm




Good one Doc.

Obviously Rumpy does not watch Insiders.

I would say egg on face.


----------



## dutchie (21 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny, I've never seen Abbott on Insiders either.






drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3838363.htm
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4006775.htm
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2014/s4049697.htm




That is funny.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 June 2015)

noco said:


> Good one Doc.
> 
> Obviously Rumpy does not watch Insiders.
> 
> I would say egg on face.




Three times in how many years ?


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Three times in how many years ?



Still 3-Nil.


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Three times in how many years ?




Rumpy you stated Abbott had not been on the Insiders and now you are complaining he has only been on 3 times in 3 years.

Albo fronted Bolt this morning when it should have been Shorten....No guts ...no glory

Shorten nil on the Bolt report......What a coward !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## explod (21 June 2015)

noco said:


> Rumpy you stated Abbott had not been on the Insiders and now you are complaining he has only been on 3 times in 3 years.
> 
> Albo fronted Bolt this morning when it should have been Shorten....No guts ...no glory
> 
> Shorten nil on the Bolt report......What a coward !!!!!!!!!!!




Excuse me noco,  why would anyone supporting the battlers go anywhere near Bolt. 

As with the right wing campaign against Gillard,  so too will this fail. 

Did you know noco that the friendly children's program of Peter Rabbit is very good to turn off your hatred of fellow man. 

The Rabbit (Mr)  is part way there with God,  just have to get him to comprehend that God is crapola. 

In summary,  the negative campaign is failing and the ALP Green vote will be even higher next month. 

You not only have to tell me,  (the sixth request)  but now show,   WHERE ARE THE JOBS COMING FROM noco,  ole Pal


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

explod said:


> Excuse me noco,  why would anyone supporting the battlers go anywhere near Bolt.
> 
> As with the right wing campaign against Gillard,  so too will this fail.
> 
> ...




Anthony Albo was on the Bolt Report this morning so I guess you would  put him in the same category as Abbott...So Albo does not support the battlers.

Jobs, jobs, jobs....Don't you read the news....unemployment has dropped...It used to be 4% under Howard and jumped to 6% + under Labor....The jobs are starting to appear with small business since Abbott took the initiative with incentives for the power house of the country.....

Shorten did dirty deals with companies which stripped the rights of workers...Check out the deal Shorten did with Cleanevent....Shorten conned companies into signing up members to his union without their knowledge....It is normal for workers who want to a member of a union to sign a form.....Did Shorten forge their signatures?


----------



## IFocus (21 June 2015)

noco said:


> Anthony Albo was on the Bolt Report this morning so I guess you would  put him in the same category as Abbott...So Albo does not support the battlers.
> 
> Jobs, jobs, jobs....Don't you read the news....unemployment has dropped...It used to be 4% under Howard and jumped to 6% + under Labor....The jobs are starting to appear with small business since Abbott took the initiative with incentives for the power house of the country.....
> 
> Shorten did dirty deals with companies which stripped the rights of workers...Check out the deal Shorten did with Cleanevent....Shorten conned companies into signing up members to his union without their knowledge....It is normal for workers who want to a member of a union to sign a form.....Did Shorten forge their signatures?




So Shorten has only ever ripped off workers for his own self benefit and Abbott and Bolt have only ever fought for workers rights and entitlements.....

It a strange world.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> It a strange world.



So strange that Fairfax through the SMH has turned on him and it seems his biggest defender relatively speaking is now what you refer to as the Liberal Daily.

He probably has his last interview on Insiders today.


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2015)

explod said:


> In summary,  the negative campaign is failing and the ALP Green vote will be even higher next month.




One would have thought that the LNP would have learned about public backlash from the debacle that was the Newman Govt in QLD. Same use of taxpayer monies and Newscorp to pursue the hate they have for the ALP (and presumably their voter base). It's like they swallowed the Jewish book of how to sue and intimidate using the judiciary and media.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> One would have thought that the LNP would have learned about public backlash from the debacle that was the Newman Govt in QLD. Same use of taxpayer monies and Newscorp to pursue the hate they have for the ALP (and presumably their voter base). It's like they swallowed the Jewish book of how to sue and intimidate using the judiciary and media.



Is it now really that indigestible to talk about Bill ?

That after all is what this thread is about.


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Is it now really that indigestible to talk about Bill ?
> 
> That after all is what this thread is about.




Yes it's about Bill and the various influences that are shaping his laziness and ineffectiveness as he grows into the role as a seat warming pollie.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yes it's about Bill and the various influences that are shaping his laziness and ineffectiveness as he grows into the role as a seat warming pollie.



It's up to Bill to be the Bill (or Due) he is (he has been).


----------



## IFocus (22 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> So strange that Fairfax through the SMH has turned on him and it seems his biggest defender relatively speaking is now what you refer to as the Liberal Daily.
> 
> He probably has his last interview on Insiders today.




Its an absurd situation where those that have invested a life time attacking workers rights and conditions are held up as credible to criticize one who has spent a life time doing the opposite. 

Anyone with a moral fiber would recognize the political abuse of this royal commission.

If the lid was ever lifted on the Liberal party connections to money and influence................


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Its an absurd situation where those that have invested a life time attacking workers rights and conditions are held up as credible to criticize one who has spent a life time doing the opposite.
> 
> Anyone with a moral fiber would recognize the political abuse of this royal commission.
> 
> If the lid was ever lifted on the Liberal party connections to money and influence................




As a blue collar worker all my life, I can tell you I and most of my fellow workers became disenfranchised with the unions in the 80's, it hasn't recovered since.

The unions and I'm only speaking from W.A experience, became a political tool in the 80's and made no secret of the fact, many industrial disputes were ended or extended for political reasons.

Post the 1980 period, I personally observed better negotiated outcomes were forthcoming, when Liberal were in office, this was mainly due to the union working for you rather than the government.

It all sounds wonderful, the union representing you, but when it conflicts with their their personal political aspirations conflicts arise.

Well that has been my personal observations.


----------



## IFocus (22 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> As a blue collar worker all my life, I can tell you I and most of my fellow workers became disenfranchised with the unions in the 80's, it hasn't recovered since.
> 
> The unions and I'm only speaking from W.A experience, became a political tool in the 80's and made no secret of the fact, many industrial disputes were ended or extended for political reasons.
> 
> ...




You are kidding me the Liberals are protecting workers rights what friggen bubble are you living in.....Work Non Choices is that what you call representing workers FFS.


You believe the propaganda fed to you by conservatives with only one agenda  get real for gods sake.


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> You are kidding me the Liberals are protecting workers rights what friggen bubble are you living in.....Work Non Choices is that what you call representing workers FFS.
> 
> .




If you read my post, I didn't say Liberals were protecting our rights, I said when Liberals were in Government, the UNIONS were fighting the government to protect our rights.

When Labor were in Government, the Unions were in bed with them 'shafting' us, to further their political ambitions.

You believe the lawyers and accountants that are union secretaries FFS .


----------



## Tisme (23 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Its an absurd situation where those that have invested a life time attacking workers rights and conditions are held up as credible to criticize one who has spent a life time doing the opposite.
> 
> Anyone with a moral fiber would recognize the political abuse of this royal commission.If the lid was ever lifted on the Liberal party connections to money and influence................




This is where a dichotomy occurs. Because the Labor Party is perceived as the social conscience, it is held to a higher account than the Liberals, who are perceived as money/wealth/capital players and therefore expected to profit via guile and trickery. 

Doesn't matter than Labor pollies are increasingly incubated in upper middle class and probably never swung a hammer in their lives and the Liberal pollies might as well have the Indian Ocean between them and experience in industry, commerce and business.

Journalists, lawyers and the Pope are in charge of both houses now ... Noco's fabians might be in the mix too, but way off in the distance in my view


----------



## SirRumpole (23 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> This is where a dichotomy occurs. Because the Labor Party is perceived as the social conscience, it is held to a higher account than the Liberals, who are perceived as money/wealth/capital players and therefore expected to profit via guile and trickery.
> 
> Doesn't matter than Labor pollies are increasingly incubated in upper middle class and probably never swung a hammer in their lives and the Liberal pollies might as well have the Indian Ocean between them and experience in industry, commerce and business.
> 
> Journalists, lawyers and the Pope are in charge of both houses now ... Noco's fabians might be in the mix too, but way off in the distance in my view




I think the Fabians are probably less in the mix than a bunch of right wing freaks called the IPA.

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au...-faceless-men-the-ipa/1401458400#.VYiHeEb50x0


----------



## Tisme (23 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the Fabians are probably less in the mix than a bunch of right wing freaks called the IPA.
> 
> https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au...-faceless-men-the-ipa/1401458400#.VYiHeEb50x0





Did you watch ABC yesterday and the IPA fella who reckons that wealthy people should pay to send their kids to public schools? Wannabe adult Abbott might have denied it would have any traction in between shouting "slow learner" insults to Shorten yesterday, but there is no denying the IPA does have major influence on the Libs, the Nats of course obsequiously obedient as ever.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2015)

The Greens's decision to support the government's age pension changes seems to have shaken Bill Shorten and Labor,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-23/labor-bows-to-fuel-excise-increase/6566240


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

Shaken and "caught on the hop" ??



> Bill Shorten admits to lying to broadcaster Neil Mitchell over leadership questions




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ver-leadership-questions-20150624-ghwdnr.html


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Shaken and "caught on the hop" ??
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ver-leadership-questions-20150624-ghwdnr.html




Shock, horror, I thought Abbott was supposed to be the only one that tells lies.


----------



## IFocus (24 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Shock, horror, I thought Abbott was supposed to be the only one that tells lies.





Abbott is the only one that repeats them every day


----------



## banco (24 June 2015)

Good luck on cross examination at the Royal Commission when you've just admitted to lying a week ago.  The lawyers' questions write themselves.


----------



## noco (27 June 2015)

Good on you Bill for looking after the workers at the Chiquita mushroom factory...the deal between you and the company left those poor workers worse off.
Good luck on the 7th July......you will need it.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rk-on-union-deal/story-fnkdypbm-1227416960237

*We don’t know 100 per cent of the details yet about the AWU’s deal, as all the evidence hasn’t been heard, but we do know that by the time the Chiquita deal was done everyone won except the workers.

The employer’s crippling WorkCover premiums were shifted over to a labour-hire company. The union’s falling membership was reversed by nearly 700 people and it received lots of cash. The people who were lucky enough to be chosen to start the labour-hire business made profits, at least until they went bust, owing worker entitlements.

It was only the workers who drew the short straw. All they got was to keep working at the same place for a lot less money, minus their job security, although they were allegedly injured less.

Aren’t modern, co-operative unions just wonderful? Over the years, these types of unions have proved very handy for some in the business sector. This explains why they have staunch defenders sprinkled throughout the top end of town.*


----------



## MrBurns (27 June 2015)

First it was Juliar

Now it's Billy Liar

What a great opposition we have and heaven help us if they ever fluke their way back in.


----------



## noco (27 June 2015)

MrBurns said:


> First it was Juliar
> 
> Now it's Billy Liar
> 
> What a great opposition we have and heaven help us if they ever fluke their way back in.




YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!

More debt
More carbon dioxide tax.
More mining tax.
More tax on superannuation.
More illegal boat arrivals.
More control of the ABC
More central control of the Banks, Mining, Manufacturing, Agriculture and the way we live....Less wages for the workers like Chicquita and Cleanevent.
More bowing to the Greens.

Back to the 19th century......God help us all....If there is a God.


----------



## galumay (27 June 2015)

noco said:


> More debt - Like Abbott's government?
> More carbon dioxide tax. - As opposed to more CO2?
> More mining tax.- As opposed to not paying any tax in australia on their super-profits?
> More tax on superannuation. - Good
> ...




That got me laughing! A supporter of the most regressive, conservative, negative and backward focussed government we have probably ever seen, suggesting a change in government would be going backwards! Hell if this country goes any faster backwards we will fall off the edge of the flat earth that it would appear the LNP believe in.

ps. I am only posting in this thread because I am bored waiting for the rugby to start, i know you are a welded on RWNJ noco, so i dont expect you to see the light anytime soon. I do despair for the future of this country while we have the worst PM ever who has done incalculable harm to our country and its reputation - but while the alternative is Little Bill, a man I know all too well - we are in a dark place. His recent voting alongside Abbot to protect paedophiles raping and traumatising refugee children in detention shows just how immoral politics has become in this country.


----------



## noco (27 June 2015)

galumay said:


> That got me laughing! A supporter of the most regressive, conservative, negative and backward focussed government we have probably ever seen, suggesting a change in government would be going backwards! Hell if this country goes any faster backwards we will fall off the edge of the flat earth that it would appear the LNP believe in.
> 
> ps. I am only posting in this thread because I am bored waiting for the rugby to start, i know you are a welded on RWNJ noco, so i dont expect you to see the light anytime soon. I do despair for the future of this country while we have the worst PM ever who has done incalculable harm to our country and its reputation - but while the alternative is Little Bill, a man I know all too well - we are in a dark place. His recent voting alongside Abbot to protect paedophiles raping and traumatising refugee children in detention shows just how immoral politics has become in this country.




LOL 

The light on the hill went out years ago

Play the ball and not the man  mate.

ROFL....


----------



## trainspotter (27 June 2015)

galumay said:


> That got me laughing! A supporter of the most regressive, conservative, negative and backward focussed government we have probably ever seen, suggesting a change in government would be going backwards! Hell if this country goes any faster backwards we will fall off the edge of the flat earth that it would appear the LNP believe in.
> 
> ps. I am only posting in this thread because I am bored waiting for the rugby to start, i know you are a welded on RWNJ noco, so i dont expect you to see the light anytime soon. I do despair for the future of this country while we have the worst PM ever who has done incalculable harm to our country and its reputation - but while the alternative is Little Bill, a man I know all too well - we are in a dark place. His recent voting alongside Abbot to protect paedophiles raping and traumatising refugee children in detention shows just how immoral politics has become in this country.




As opposed to Rudd/Gillard/Rudd era of how many refugees drowning on their way here to our country?

Immoral or not this is what we are left with to deal against to not let this happen again.

Howard: Children overboard

Rudd/Gillard/Rudd: 1,000s drowned at sea

Abbott: Refugees in camps from whom? Don't play the trauma card. Chris Bowen 2010 was immigration minister ...



> Sorry to mention the boats Chris – but your Sergeant Schultz defence of ‘not knowing anything’ about the 800 boats and 50,000 people that poured into Australia under your Government highlights Labor’s total inability to accept responsibility for its many failures.
> 
> Perhap​s a quick recounting of recent history will help.
> 
> ...




http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/peterdutton/2015/Pages/Chris-Bowen-Labors-Sergeant-Schultz.aspx

You figure it out


----------



## noco (27 June 2015)

Bill Shorten's best interview.....No lies this time....He has spoken the truth for a change.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...ilytelegraph/comments/bill_tells_it_straight/


----------



## noco (1 July 2015)

Janet Albrechtsen sums Bill Shorten extremely well......Just how can he survive?....I mean the man has nothing going for him......I beg the Labor Party to leave him as leader...While Bill is leader, Abbott's job as PM will be strengthened.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...422450927?sv=1f51f7d76396e09ea8b8c4d36032c637

*Laura Tingle alluded to it on the ABC’s Insiders when she said no one knows who Shorten is. And that means attacks on the Opposition Leader tend to leave deeper bruises than they may for a leader who has a well-established political character in the marketplace of voters. Even after nine years as a union leader and almost eight years in parliament, Shorten still hasn’t built up a strong, deep and respectable persona. It’s why anything said against Shorten sticks like a first impression.

Hence damaging claims about shady deals done by Shorten when he led the Australian Workers Union leave a mark. Ditto when the Opposition Leader makes policy mistakes such as being outwitted by the Greens over sensible pension savings.

And when his murky factional history within Labor is trawled over, there’s nothing much for Shorten to fall back on.*


----------



## Macquack (1 July 2015)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten's best interview.....No lies this time....He has spoken the truth for a change.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...ilytelegraph/comments/bill_tells_it_straight/




Tim Blair (who ever he is?) is a complete and utter buffoon. I watched that video in good faith and just wasted 3 minutes and 5 seconds of my life.

Noco, you are the "world champion" of Labor bashers, you should be extremely happy with Shorten as leader of the opposition, because that is his highest calling. (get the concept???)


----------



## noco (1 July 2015)

Macquack said:


> Tim Blair (who ever he is?) is a complete and utter buffoon. I watched that video in good faith and just wasted 3 minutes and 5 seconds of my life.
> 
> Noco, you are the "world champion" of Labor bashers, you should be extremely happy with Shorten as leader of the opposition, because that is his highest calling. (get the concept???)





Yes, the longer Shorten is the leader of the Labor Party the more I like it.

But you had to have a good laugh at the bloke.....He did it really well.


----------



## Macquack (1 July 2015)

noco said:


> Yes, the longer Shorten is the leader of the Labor Party the more I like it.
> 
> But you had to have a good laugh at the bloke.....*He did it really well*.




If that piece of garbage was taking the piss out of Tony Abbott, you would be screaming like a baby.


----------



## noco (1 July 2015)

Macquack said:


> If that piece of garbage was taking the piss out of Tony Abbott, you would be screaming like a baby.




Actually, I do believe he did do one one on either Abbott or Hockey...I will try to dig it up for you.


----------



## noco (21 July 2015)

Another case where BS sold out his workers for personal gain.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../comments/but_what_was_in_this_deal_for_bill/


----------



## noco (22 July 2015)

Shorten says he will clean up Tony Abbott's mess on the FTA with China.......What a joke this guy is.

Please read all the comments about Shorten and the trade unions.......Shorten is as scared as hell with the unions.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n again. From 40+ years as a Labor voter.[/B]


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2015)

I would not want Pliberseck as Labor leader. She is too far left and not pragmatic enough. If Labor want a change they should go for Bowen or maybe Albanese. Shorten has shortcomings, but so does everyone in either Party. If Labor come up with good policies people will vote for them regardless of who is leader.


----------



## Tisme (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I would not want Pliberseck as Labor leader. She is too far left and not pragmatic enough. If Labor want a change they should go for Bowen or maybe Albanese. Shorten has shortcomings, but so does everyone in either Party. If Labor come up with good policies people will vote for them regardless of who is leader.




God spare us Tanya, please someone send me a canoe without a paddle and GPS coordinates to  a 5hit creek so I can practice.

Labor still ahead where it counts, by 6%


----------



## pixel (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I would not want Pliberseck as Labor leader. She is too far left and not pragmatic enough. If Labor want a change they should go for Bowen or maybe Albanese. Shorten has shortcomings, but so does everyone in either Party.* If Labor come up with good policies people will vote for them* regardless of who is leader.




But that's the problem:
Labor has had "good policies" (in the opinion of some at least) that were howled down by the power-hungry and influential, the right-wingers, and the willing press hacks. Abbott has built his career on obstruction and secrecy. Hardly surprising that many of the under-educated can't tell good from bad and fall for populist promises when the truth is being suppressed.

Let's see if the new plan to achieve RET of 50% by 2030 can be presented convincingly.


----------



## noco (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I would not want Pliberseck as Labor leader. She is too far left and not pragmatic enough. If Labor want a change they should go for Bowen or maybe Albanese. Shorten has shortcomings, but so does everyone in either Party. If Labor come up with good policies people will vote for them regardless of who is leader.




If Pliberseck ever became Prime Minister and started touring the world meeting World leaders with the number one first bloke with a record of serving 9 years behind bars......What sort of an image would she present for Australia.

Really, there is not much talent in the Labor Party to take on the leadership.


----------



## IFocus (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I would not want Pliberseck as Labor leader. She is too far left and not pragmatic enough. If Labor want a change they should go for Bowen or maybe Albanese. Shorten has shortcomings, but so does everyone in either Party. If Labor come up with good policies people will vote for them regardless of who is leader.





I now think it was a blunder not going with Albanese he would have taken Abbott.


----------



## trainspotter (22 July 2015)

noco said:


> If Pliberseck ever became Prime Minister and started touring the world meeting World leaders with the number one first bloke with a record of serving 9 years behind bars......What sort of an image would she present for Australia.
> 
> Really, there is not much talent in the Labor Party to take on the leadership.




Ermm not quite noco ... given 9 year sentence for narcotics on a jumped up charge (conspiracy to import half a kilo of heroin) and spent 3 years in the clink. Fully rehabilitated now. Was a junky and shared needles with gay men (his own admission) 

He was headhunted for the position of director-general of the NSW Department of Commerce and in 2007 was made the director-general of the NSW Department of Education and Training. 



> Not only had Coutts-Trotter been able to resist the drug culture of prison, and to go cold turkey, Matthews wrote, but he is "one of the very few whose sheer guts and determination successfully defeated the vicious cycle of prison-parole-and-more-prison".




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-addiction-20150212-13cqrh.html#ixzz3gbeGzgVb


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2015)

pixel said:


> Let's see if the new plan to achieve RET of 50% by 2030 can be presented convincingly.



http://www.afr.com/news/politics/labor-dreams-of-50pc-renewables-by-2030-20150722-gii21l



> Mark Butler, the opposition spokesman on climate change, said on Wednesday Labor would take the "50 per cent by 2030" goal to the next election. But if Labor wins it will seek advice on the details of the policy. "We do not have a pre-defined view on the best way to reach that goal," he said.




The article headline sums it up well.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2015)

IFocus said:


> I now think it was a blunder not going with Albanese he would have taken Abbott.




Albanese or Bowen, would have at least stood for something.

Shorten is the Steven Bradbury of politics.IMO

Mr Beige, which in turns makes him epitomise, what a lot of people dislike about politicians. Again only my opinion.

I liked Bowen when he had the immigration portfolio, he expressed his concern at policy flaws, yet carried the task well.
Unfortunately he hasn't shone, in his current portfolio, suspect under pressure.lol


----------



## noco (23 July 2015)

Shorten does a back flip on TURN BACK THE BOATS.....He has finally admitted, the Coalitions policy did work.

Looks good Bill but you will have to face the left wing socialists at the Labor conference this weekend who are not in favor of your policy and you just might be overruled.

A disunited Labor Party.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/28996473/shorten-adopts-asylum-boat-turn-back-plan/#page1


----------



## noco (23 July 2015)

noco said:


> Shorten does a back flip on TURN BACK THE BOATS.....He has finally admitted, the Coalitions policy did work.
> 
> Looks good Bill but you will have to face the left wing socialists at the Labor conference this weekend who are not in favor of your policy and you just might be overruled.
> 
> ...




Poor old Bill may have his wings clipped on the weekend......More on his back flip saga.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-turnback-policy/story-fntzoymg-1227452897779

*LABOR is headed for civil war after Opposition Leader Bill Shorten decided to match Tony Abbott’s asylum seeker policy and enforce boat turn-backs.

Mr Shorten’s backflip comes nine months after he slapped down suggestions by his immigration spokesman, Richard Marles, that Labor might be open to the possibility.

ANALYSIS: BOAT MOVE WILL TEST LABOR

MARLES: WHY WE WILL TURN THEM BACK

Mr Shorten and Mr Marles will unveil the new policy at Labor’s national conference this weekend.

But the policy, which also locks in offshore processing, prompted an immediate uprising on the party’s Left, which fiercely opposes turn-backs.

Former Speaker Anna Burke, a member of the Left, said this week: “Labor should in no way support turning back asylum seeker boats.’’

The new policy looks likely to be put to a vote at the conference.

But the votes from Labor’s Left and Right are virtually even, so it is a vote that Mr Shorten could lose — and along with it, his authority.

Labor’s Left faction will meet at midday today to sign off on its conference positions.*


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2015)

One would imagine that internally, Bill has crunched-the-numbers on boat turn backs before coming to a public position. That after all has been his primary skill.

There's also the question of how real the policy would be beyond the words.



> As previously reported by The Australian Financial Review, a deal is being negotiated between factions with the aim of leaving the policy platform blank on the issue of turnbacks – neither supporting it nor opposing it. This would give any future Labor government the discretion to apply the policy should it feel the need.
> 
> Mr Shorten will argue on Saturday for that option.




http://www.afr.com/news/politics/bill-shorten-to-back-boat-turnbacks-20150722-gihums


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## dutchie (27 July 2015)

Bill Shorten’s policies to date:

1.	If screwing the workers is necessary to further my own career then do it.
2.	If I can’t think of any new policies then use the Coalitions (with modifications to try and hide the fact that I’m copying them).
3.	There will be turnbacks in the government I lead………… maybe.   (see 2. Above)
4.	On gay marriage… well yes, well no, well maybe, well later on.
5.	On fixing the financial mess we left Australia in ………   (empty set).
6.	There will be no carbon tax in the government I lead. Just an ETS tax which some people are calling a tax (nasty people).
7.	Umm……*
8.	Umm……*
9.	Umm……*
10.	 Umm……*

                   * Indicates blank thought bubble


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## explod (1 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Bill Shorten’s policies to date:
> 
> 1.	If screwing the workers is necessary to further my own career then do it.
> 2.	If I can’t think of any new policies then use the Coalitions (with modifications to try and hide the fact that I’m copying them).
> ...



Hard to add anymore. 

The pillars of society are crumbling


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## noco (17 August 2015)

explod said:


> Hard to add anymore.
> 
> The pillars of society are crumbling




How about a carbon tax to lift the house hold costs by $600 and hit the poor old working Mums and Dads.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...485953286?sv=c260e62fca1d733d658820b441fdbcfb

If you want to know what the lead-filled sock of fate has in store for us, look no further than Labor’s *climate-change policies.

With barely one per cent of *global emissions, Bill Shorten would have us mandate a share of renewable energy two times greater than that aimed at by the world’s largest emitters.

The threat that poses to consumers, who would face dramatic increases in power bills, is obvious; but the mere possibility of so *irrational a policy — which would squander an amount equivalent to the sum of the budget deficits over the forward estimates — must compound the sovereign risk that is already damaging Australia’s international competitiveness.

Of course, the renewables lobby has beamed with joy ever since Shorten announced that “Labor’s ambition is to see 50 per cent of our electricity energy mix generated by renewable energy by 2030”. And however poor renewables may be at actually generating power, that lobby’s capacity to generate spurious arguments would make the sun shine at night.

We have, for example, been told that far from raising prices, the Renewable Energy Target reduces them. However, that is only true for so long as the growing stock of renewables adds to overcapacity in the National Electricity Market, forcing prices in that market down to the cash costs of keeping plants going. In addition to being inherently inefficient (since it makes no sense to aggravate a capacity glut), any benefit to consumers must be short-lived, as prices will rise once the surplus plants leave the market.

But it is even worse than that. In most markets, when supply exceeds demand, it is the highest cost suppliers who get knocked out, cushioning the price increases associated with a return to balance. In this market, however, the exact opposite is occurring, as the renewables mandate ensures the costliest capacity remains while cheaper capacity is prematurely scrapped.

That process is already apparent, with expensive renewables accounting for 98 per cent of the 1100 megawatts of capacity added last year to the NEM, while coal plants, which have low operating costs, accounted for 90 per cent of the 4500 MW that have been withdrawn or whose withdrawal has been announced.

*Were the renewables target nearly doubled, as Labor proposes, the distortion would be even more severe. Quantifying the impacts involves myriad assumptions; but a reasonable estimate (derived using a model developed for the Minerals Council by electricity specialists Principal Economics) is that increasing the renewables *— target would raise the costs of power by $86 billion, which amounts to $600 per household per year.

Given that the average family has an annual electricity bill of some $1600, adding $600 is hardly trivial. Nor could anyone claim $86bn is small change for the Australian economy as a whole: not only is it more than twice this year’s budget deficit, but it exceeds the total deficits forecast over the period to 2018-19.

And since any abatement it buys could be obtained far more cheaply by other means, it would be wasteful even were cutting emissions worthwhile.

However, the economic costs of Labor’s proposal don’t end there. After all, Shorten also intends to introduce a tax on carbon. While the details have not been released, it is clear any such scheme would disproportionately raise the costs of the coal-fired generators, accelerating their exit, and so further boosting prices. And by piling a carbon tax on top of the tax associated with the RET, it could make the distortions caused by increasing the RET even greater than the $86bn cited above.
*
The extent of the additional loss will depend both on the *precise nature of Labor’s carbon tax scheme and on its rate. But Treasury’s modelling of Julia *Gillard’s carbon tax suggests that, given a carbon tax, the additional loss from raising the RET would (on an admittedly rough estimate) be in the order of $38bn, taking the total cost of Shorten’s renewables policy well over $100bn.

Not that the renewables lobby would ever accept those figures. Rather, it argues that the cost of renewables will plummet as their share in the energy mix rises. But those arguments are hopelessly flawed.

To begin with, as the Productivity Commission found in reviewing the original modelling for the carbon tax, Australia’s share of global investment in renewables is so small that any scale economies from doubling that share would reduce costs by less than one-tenth of one per cent. Moreover, far from falling, the economic costs of increasing wind capacity are likely to rise, as many of the best sites have already been taken, forcing growth to occur where transmission costs are high and *capacity utilisation low and intermittent.

And with massive demand in the developing world for coal and gas plants, technological progress in fossil-fuel generation is at least as rapid as that in renewables, keeping it highly cost competitive.

Little wonder then that in the US, states such as West Virginia and Kansas have now decided to scrap their renewable energy mandates altogether, while Ohio has deferred the steady increases its law originally required. And as data from the US federal Energy Information Administration shows, electricity is 22.9 per cent more costly in those states with renewables mandates than in those without, competition to attract footloose capital and labour seems set to accelerate the trend away from compulsory targets.

Such a move would make even more sense in Australia, given our uniquely abundant resources of brown coal that is costly to transport. Those resources, and the very low power prices they allowed, have long underpinned our prosperity; by throwing what little remains of that advantage away, Shorten’s policy, were it ever *implemented, would be a one-way ticket to energy hell.


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## wayneL (17 August 2015)

^^^^^and that,dear readers endeth the lesson on how to destroy Oz's only international competitive advantage.

Well played Australia


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2015)

> While the details have not been released, it is clear ...




Does anyone see a logical fallacy in that statement ?


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## Tisme (17 August 2015)

noco said:


> How about a carbon tax to lift the house hold costs by $600 and hit the poor old working Mums and Dads.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...485953286?sv=c260e62fca1d733d658820b441fdbcfb
> ...




The other day I watched Chris Pyne (I think it was ) gushing forth how the Coalition had delivered cheaper electricity ........ I think that was on another planet that also speaks Na-Nu Na-Nu and practices the art of Shazbot?


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## Tisme (17 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Does anyone see a logical fallacy in that statement ?




That would be the famous third eye that people like Andrew Bolt have ... being the praetorian guard of all things and blessed Oracles, they see things that are never seen by mere mortals like you and me Rumpole.


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## noco (20 August 2015)

This a press release by Greg Hunt who somehow received a leaked document from a Labor Shadow Cabinet meeting.
Labor in unity.


*The Hon. Greg Hunt MP
Minister for the Environment
MEDIA RELEASE
10 August 2015
Labor’s desperate back-peddling over $633 billion carbon tax plan
It’s hardly surprising that Labor is out today desperately trying to distance themselves from their modelling which shows the painful impact of their new carbon tax plan.
Of course Bill Shorten wants to hide the damaging impact of his carbon tax plan.
But Labor can’t dismiss or distance themselves from this.
Labor commissioned this modelling while they were in government. This is Labor’s carbon tax target modelled using Labor’s numbers.
At the ALP Conference last month, Labor aligned themselves with the Climate Change Authority’s 40-60 per cent emissions reduction target (through amendment 249A).
Bill Shorten’s carbon tax will see tens of thousands of jobs lost, power bills skyrocket, wages will be lower and the economy will be more than half a trillion dollars weaker.
Bill Shorten says it’s all just a scare campaign but we know the truth. Labor’s plan for a carbon tax was exposed in leaked shadow cabinet documents and these numbers show just how destructive Bill Shorten’s carbon tax will be.
Under Labor’s new supercharged carbon tax, the price would need to skyrocket to $209 per tonne to achieve a target of around 44 per cent below 2000 levels by 2030.
Australia’s GDP would be 2.6% lower in 2030 and $633 billion lower between 2015 and 2030.
Real wages growth would be around 6 percent lower.
Australian income per person is a whopping $4,900 lower than it would be without Labor’s new carbon tax in 2030.
Wholesale electricity prices would be 78% higher in 2030. This would drive up electricity costs for Australian families, pensioners and businesses.
Australia’s aluminium industry employing around 17,600 people would collapse by 46 per cent because the carbon tax would make it unprofitable to continue manufacturing in Australia.
Construction would be 11 per cent lower. This means fewer opportunities for plumbers, electricians and carpenters.
These numbers show Labor’s carbon tax would have a devastating impact on the Australian economy, jobs, incomes and we would see power prices skyrocket.
Labor commissioned this modelling but of course given the results, they would never want these numbers to see the light of day.
If Labor has any sense then surely they will see that these numbers are a fatal blow to Bill Shorten’s carbon tax plan.
What Labor refuses to learn is that you can tackle climate change without a carbon tax. You can tackle climate change without a $633 billion hit to the economy.
We’ve already shown with the 47 million tonne first Emissions Reduction Fund auction that we can reduce emissions effectively without a massive hit to families through a carbon tax.
We all thought the original carbon tax was painful. Bill Shorten’s new carbon tax plan will make Julia Gillard’s carbon tax look like a walk in the park.
The idea of Bill Shorten voluntarily choosing to inflict this sort of pain on the Australian people is beyond belief. Labor hasn’t learnt its lesson.
There are many, many families out there struggling to make ends meet. The last thing they need is Bill Shorten’s super-charged carbon tax.
Kevin Rudd couldn’t trust Bill Shorten. Julia Gillard couldn’t trust Bill Shorten. The Australian people can’t trust Bill Shorten.
(ENDS)*


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## noco (20 August 2015)

Will the real Bill Shorten please stand up......According to this link there could be 2,3 or even 4 different Bill Shortens.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...h-fta-opposition/story-e6frg76f-1227490450050

China-baiting Bill Shorten disappoints with FTA opposition

    The Australian
    August 20, 2015 12:00AM

    Print
    Save for later

55
Greg Sheridan
Foreign Editor
Melbourne
https://plus.google.com/101372426793016687263

On national security and foreign affairs, there are two Bill Shortens. One was in evidence in a speech last week at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. That Bill Shorten is solid, substantial, grounded in key values and national interests, sober, tough-minded. That Bill Shorten is in the tradition of Bob Hawke.

You would certainly not hesitate to think the nation’s security interests would be well safeguarded by him.

The other Bill Shorten is the leader running the campaign, which is really absolutely disgraceful, against the free trade agreement with China. This Bill Shorten has licensed economic vandalism, destructive anti-trade populism of the worst kind, and has nothing at all to say against gross xenophobic paranoia from within the broader labour movement. If John Howard deserved criticism (and I gave him plenty at the time) for being slow to condemn Pauline Hanson’s xenophobia, Shorten’s acquiescence in union scaremongering against Chinese temporary skilled migrants is several orders of magnitude worse.

Let’s concentrate on good Bill first.

Shorten’s ASPI speech contained important commitments and gave expression to a serious world view that commands respect. Shorten recommitted Labor to increased defence spending. He said: “Labor has previously committed to increasing defence funding towards a target of 2 per cent of GDP. We urge the government to set out a credible trajectory to 2 per cent of GDP in their forthcoming white paper.”

If those words mean what they say, a Shorten government surely could not do what the Rudd and Gillard governments did: attack and erode the funding basis of defence, putting off all expenditure into the never-never beyond the forward estimates. This broad commitment needs to be backed by commitment to specific defence projects, but it is travelling in the right direction.

Shorten also reiterated in the most comprehensive fashion Labor’s commitment to the US alliance. He also re-emphasised *bipartisan support for Australian military action in Iraq.

On the South China Sea, he asserted Australia’s right to free passage through its oceans and skies “in accordance with international law”. This is polite but tough-minded code for rejecting Beijing’s most assertive territorial claims. It is one thing, however, to make a clear statement about Beijing’s territorial assertiveness in the South China Sea; it is another to demonise Chinese skilled *migrants.

Still, it is worth pausing to celebrate the strategic personality Shorten presents in the ASPI speech. Formerly, the heart and soul of strategic sense in Labor was the NSW Right. With honourable exceptions such as Joel Fitzgibbon, this has fallen away.

Strategic grip now lies with the Victorian Right — Shorten, Stephen Conroy, Mark Dreyfus, David Feeney, Anthony Byrne, Michael Danby. On foreign affairs and national security, Labor is in outlook by far one of the better centre-left parties in the world, certainly compared with most European centre-left parties, and infinitely better than British Labour. Its main negative is the terrible *record in defence spending and incoherent procurement policy in the Rudd-Gillard years.

But on the free trade agreement with China, Shorten is leading an extravagantly irresponsible push to damage, if not destroy, a critically important deal with our biggest and most important trading partner. The irony is epic.

Modern Labor prides itself (often pretty dishonestly) as the party that pioneered relations with China and can handle them uniquely well. This record doesn’t really stand up when you compare the solid progress in ties under John Howard and the episodic dramas under Kevin Rudd.

But now Labor is committing shocking vandalism against our national interests. The FTA promises billions of dollars of extra trade for Australia. A similar but more modest FTA with China has been the driving force behind what you could almost now call New Zealand’s boom.

*The FTA is even more important for services than it is for commodities. And perhaps it will be most important as a driver of *investment. With the global economy slowing, our productivity stalling and our agriculture sector desperately undercapitalised, with the construction phase in the minerals boom long over, attracting foreign investment is one key part of any chance we have for ongoing prosperity.

Yet Labor is running a quite vicious scare campaign on wholly spurious ground that Chinese labour will flood the market. Is this the ALP of 2015 or 1899? It is almost impossible to credit.

The FTA does not give Chinese investors any scope for the unregulated entry of large numbers of Chinese workers. It removes China from a small list of nations with special restrictions on importing labour. But it requires any imported workers that any Chinese venture may want to bring in to undergo all the normal procedures associated with the 457 visa class for temporary entry of skilled workers.

Incidentally, there are actually 6000 fewer 457 visa holders in Australia today than there were when Labor left office in 2013. Far from becoming a flood, the tide has been receding.

The 457 process requires that no suitable Australian workers be available for positions filled. There has been some rorting of 457 visas but on a minor scale.

Labor, in concert with a truly disgraceful and xenophobic union campaign, is giving the impression that the FTA irreversibly allows Chinese companies or projects to bring in unlimited numbers of Chinese workers. In fact, not only do all such people have to comply with all the 457 regulations, but any government can, whenever it wants, tighten the 457 regulations without being remotely in breach of the FTA.

Labor has a poor record on FTAs. It couldn’t complete them in government. It very nearly opposed the FTA with the US, which has seen a huge flow of investment into Australia; it opposed aspects of the South Korean FTA until the last minute. Mark Latham claims Shorten publicly opposed the US FTA while privately backing it. Probably Labor will fin*ally pass the Chinese FTA-enabling legislation after irresponsibly opposing it until the last minute. Either way, this is a very poor show from Shorten.

*

More false propaganda by the LUGs (Labor..Unions and the Greens.


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## noco (3 September 2015)

This Shorten fellow is an absolute joke when he has so many Labor People stacked against him on the CHAFTA.

Someone remarked the other day about CHAFTA , Shorten HAFTA  or else he will go down in flames. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...509973759?sv=b1bdf984c71507dae828c87c83567c06

*Bill Shorten is increasingly *isolated over the China-Australia free-trade agreement, with six Labor leaders backing the deal and the Business Council of Australia *accusing the opposition of playing politics on a deal vital to the *national economy.

The Opposition Leader has locked in behind a campaign against the agreement run by the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union, which claims it will cost Australian jobs by giving *concessions to Chinese workers — claims rejected by the government.

Yesterday, Mr Shorten was forced to deny a rift with his state and territory colleagues after Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr and Tasmanian Labor leader Bryan Green joined Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews, South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill and NSW Labor leader Luke Foley in expressing support for the deal.

The deal has also been *endorsed by Labor elders, including former prime minister and ACTU leader Bob Hawke, former foreign minister Bob Carr and former trade minister Simon Crean, who believe the wording of the agreement does not have to be *revisited to protect workers from the use of cheap Chinese labour on Australian projects.*

How could he possibly be Prime Minister material?


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## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> How could he possibly be Prime Minister material?




Because he is standing up for the Australian workforce, something Abbott will never do.

CHAFTA does not guarantee labour market testing, it's up to the Immigration Department. Shorten wants legislation that does guarantee it. Abbott doesn't. Abbott says labour market testing is guaranteed, "trust me". Trust him ? A lot of people did at the last election and got kicked in the teeth for it.


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## Tisme (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Because he is standing up for the Australian workforce, something Abbott will never do.
> 
> CHAFTA does not guarantee labour market testing, it's up to the Immigration Department. Shorten wants legislation that does guarantee it. Abbott doesn't. Abbott says labour market testing is guaranteed, "trust me". Trust him ? A lot of people did at the last election and got kicked in the teeth for it.




The way things are going for the govt, Bill will be in the Lodge by June next year.

With the bar now approaching irreversible  "fail", I think I might just have a crack at being elected PM..... that pension for life and free 1st class travel anywhere has to be a plus.


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## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Because he is standing up for the Australian workforce, something Abbott will never do.
> 
> CHAFTA does not guarantee labour market testing, it's up to the Immigration Department. Shorten wants legislation that does guarantee it. Abbott doesn't. Abbott says labour market testing is guaranteed, "trust me". Trust him ? A lot of people did at the last election and got kicked in the teeth for it.




Soooooooooo why aren't these men standing up to ban CHAFTA and back up Bill Shorten? :-

Bob Hawke
Bob Carr
Simon Crean
Jay Weatheral SA
Daniel Andrews Vic
Foley NSW
Anna Palaszczuk QLD.
Andrew Barr ACT
Bryan Green Tas.

Shorten is the odd man out ...no re negotiations required.....No need for legislation.....No need to play politics....What we need most of all is income and more jobs.

GET OUT OF THE WAY Bill and let the adults handle the job.


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## noco (3 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> The way things are going for the govt, Bill will be in the Lodge by June next year.
> 
> With the bar now approaching irreversible  "fail", I think I might just have a crack at being elected PM..... that pension for life and free 1st class travel anywhere has to be a plus.




I have just made a not of post # 468 in my diary dated 03/09/2015


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## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> ..no re negotiations required.....




True



> No need for legislation.....




False. Labor market testing is NOT guaranteed by the CHAFTA, legislation is needed to ensure that it is.


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## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> True
> 
> 
> 
> False. Labor market testing is NOT guaranteed by the CHAFTA, legislation is needed to ensure that it is.




So how is it worded?...I am only going by what I have read in the media.......I have not had access to the CHAFTA ....Have you or are you going on what the LUG party tells you through their propaganda machine?


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## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> So how is it worded?...I am only going by what I have read in the media.......I have not had access to the CHAFTA ....Have you or are you going on what the LUG party tells you through their propaganda machine?




I'm telling you Labor's position, if you disagree please quote some evidence.


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## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm telling you Labor's position, if you disagree please quote some evidence.




Actually it did not take long...I just googled the CHAFTA and bingo, there it was.

Now for gawd sake read the bloody thing and tell me what the hell is that grub going on about?

http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/Pages/chafta-myths-versus-realities.aspx



    Home Trade and investment Free Trade Agreements China-Australia Free Trade Agreement Understanding the Agreement 

Listen to this page using ReadSpeakerListen to this page
China-Australia Free Trade Agreement

    Understanding the Agreement
    About the negotiations
    News
    Official Documents

China-Australia FTA (ChAFTA): myths versus realities

This document addresses some misconceptions about the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement (ChAFTA), signed in Canberra on 17 June 2015.
First myth: Chinese companies will have unrestricted access to Chinese workers for major projects, threatening Australian jobs

*Reality: FALSE

ChAFTA will not allow unrestricted access to the Australian labour market by Chinese workers. It will not allow Australian employment laws or conditions to be undermined, nor allow companies to avoid paying Australian wages by using foreign workers.

Australia’s existing visa arrangements, including the 457 visa program, will continue to be the basis for implementing Australia’s commitments on labour mobility under ChAFTA. The 457 visa program assists employers to address labour shortages by bringing in genuinely skilled workers where they cannot find an appropriately skilled Australian. ChAFTA will not remove the need for employer sponsorship under the 457 visa programme.

Through Investment Facilitation Arrangements (IFAs) made available under a separate MOU concluded alongside ChAFTA, Chinese companies making significant investments in Australia (more than $150 million in specific types of infrastructure development projects) will have increased access to skilled overseas workers when suitable local workers cannot be found.

IFAs will strengthen infrastructure development and investment, leading to the creation of jobs and increased economic prosperity for all Australians.   

IFAs will not allow unskilled or underpaid Chinese workers to be brought in to staff major projects. In fact, consistent with existing programmes, IFAs will provide certainty that investors will be able to access skilled overseas workers, under Australian employment conditions, when suitable local workers cannot be found.

Under IFAs, Australian workers will continue to be given first opportunity. Consistent with existing practice, employers will not be permitted to bring in overseas skilled workers unless there is clear evidence of a genuine labour market need, as determined by the Department of Immigration and Border Protection.
Second myth: ChAFTA will allow Chinese electricians to work in Australia without any skills assessment

Reality: FALSE

ChAFTA does not change the required skill levels for Chinese visa applicants.

Under ChAFTA, all Chinese applicants for a subclass 457 temporary work (skilled) visa, including electricians, will still need to have the requisite skills, qualifications and work experience to work safely in Australia, as well as meeting all the other regular visa requirements, before a 457 temporary work visa is granted.

All such visa holders will also continue to have to obtain any required Federal, State or Territory licenses or registration, to commence work within 90 days of arriving in Australia and be engaged in accordance with Australian workplace law, including awards and workplace health and safety.

The commitment undertaken in the ChAFTA side letter on skills assessments simply brings China into line with visa applicants from most other countries around the world with regard to application and skills’ assessment processes. For example, an additional skills’ assessment from a registered training organisation approved by Trades Recognition Australia will be conducted if further verification is required by the Department of Immigration and Border Protection.
Third myth: Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) provisions will allow Chinese companies to sue the Australian Government if they make a loss on investments

Reality: FALSE

The ISDS provisions in ChAFTA provide a mechanism for Australian or Chinese investors to pursue international arbitration based on a claimed violation of the national treatment commitment in the investment chapter.  ISDS does not protect an investor from a mere loss of profits following a change in government policy or regulation.

ISDS does not prevent a Government from changing its policies or regulating in the public interest and investors should understand the relevant regulatory environment before they commit to making their investment. Modern ISDS mechanisms incorporate explicit safeguards to re-affirm the right of governments to take decisions in the public interest, including in the areas of health and the environment, and reduce the chances that foreign investors bring frivolous claims.

Further information on ISDS.
Fourth Myth: ChAFTA will allow businesses to import dangerous substances, such as asbestos.

Reality: False

ChAFTA will not make any changes to Australia’s safety regulations or import/export prohibitions. There are no changes to restrictions on the import of asbestos and other dangerous products. ChAFTA’s chapter on technical barriers to trade focuses on improving information exchange and other cooperation at the level of experts on standards and compliance issues, but does not change any of our standards.

FTA tariff schedules typically list all products included in the World Customs Organisation’s Harmonized Commodity Description and Coding System (or Harmonized System (HS)). Asbestos is listed on the ChAFTA tariff schedules simply because it has a HS code.
Fifth Myth: ChAFTA will allow food importers to bypass Australia’s food safety processes and import contaminated foods, such as berries.

Reality: False

ChAFTA does not affect Australia’s science-based biosecurity system. SPS market access matters are separate to and negotiated independently of FTA negotiations. Australia’s biosecurity arrangements are science-based and Australia will not negotiate away our risk assessment processes in FTAs.

There are no changes to our quarantine and testing processes, which will continue to apply to food imports including berries. ChAFTA’s chapter on sanitary and phytosanitary issues aims to strengthen information exchange and other cooperation at the technical level on these issues. It does not change or weaken any of our food safety standards.

*


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## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

Read this, and tell me what you are on about



> No need to show local skills shortage
> 
> Checking Ms Kearney’s statements against the text of the agreement, she is correct that Australian workers can be excluded from labour market opportunities through ChAFTA.
> 
> ...







> There is no requirement under the MOU for labour market testing. This means the project company will not need to prove that they are unable to source Australians to work on the project. There is no requirement to prove that there is a skill shortage or that the project company has had recruitment difficulties in enticing Australian workers. (This is different to the 457 visa programme, where employers are supposed to show they have tried and failed to find Australian workers for jobs, before hiring skilled foreign workers.)




http://theconversation.com/factcheck-could-the-china-australia-fta-lock-out-australian-workers-43470


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## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Read this, and tell me what you are on about
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is little doubt Jed Kearney has cherry picked out where she believes the unions have a case of grievance, but if you read deeper into the CHAFTA agreement including the IFA, the MOU and the DIBP, it becomes much clearer.

Rumpy, I don't know whether you have read it all in detail or if you have taken Jed Kearny's word for it.....It has taken me some 2 hours to absorb it all and even then some of it became a bit confusing but my own interpretation of it is the unions and Bill Shorten do not have a case.

I am sure if there was a case, at least one of the learned Labor Party mentioned in my previous post would have picked up on Jeds case.


*MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING
BETWEEN
THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA
AND
THE GOVERNMENT OF
THE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
ON AN INVESTMENT FACILITATION ARRANGEMENT


The Governments of Australia and the People ´s Republic of China (“the Participants”) have reached the following understandings in relation to establishment of an Investment Facilitation Arrangement (IFA).

1.	An IFA for a project will be established between the Department of Immigration and Border Protection (DIBP) of Australia, or its equivalent, and a project company (the “project company” ) in accordance with the provisions of this Memorandum of Understanding (“MOU”).


Establishment of IFA

2.	The project company will be eligible to establish an IFA where:

(a)	a single Chinese enterprise  owns 50% or more of the project company; or, where no single enterprise owns 50% or more of the project company, a Chinese enterprise holds a substantial interest  in the project company;

(b)	there is a proposed infrastructure development project (“the project”) by the project company with an expected capital expenditure  of A$150 million over the term of the project;  

(c)	the project is related to infrastructure development within the food and agribusiness; resources and energy; transport; telecommunications; power supply and generation; environment; or tourism sectors;

(d)	the project company is registered as a business in Australia;

(e)	the project company agrees to comply with all Australian laws and regulations, including applicable Australian workplace law, work safety law and relevant Australian licensing, regulation and certification standards; and

(f)	the China International Contractors Association (CHINCA) and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade of Australia (DFAT) have  recommended the project and the project company meet the criteria in paragraphs 2(a) through 2(e). 

3.	In order to meet the requirement of paragraph 2(f), CHINCA will write to DFAT advising of a project company wishing to enter into an IFA for a project and will provide its recommendation that the requirements of paragraphs 2(a) through 2(e) have been met. DFAT will assess CHINCA’s recommendation in a timely manner and, once satisfied the eligibility criteria have been met, within 20 days will notify DIBP in writing of its recommendation that the proposed project constitutes an eligible project (“eligible project”) under the terms of this MOU and provide a copy of that notification to CHINCA. DFAT may request further information if necessary from CHINCA in respect of demonstrating the eligibility criteria have been met.

4.	The areas which will be subject to negotiation between DIBP and the project company in respect of the eligible project will include:

(a)	the occupations covered by the IFA project agreement; 

(b)	English language proficiency requirements;

(c)	qualifications and experience requirements; and 

(d)	calculation of the terms and conditions of the Temporary Skilled Migration Income Threshold (TSMIT).

5.	The project company may be asked to provide additional information by DIBP in respect of its requests for concessions in the above areas. Other than the areas referred to in paragraphs 4(a) through 4(d), the grant of visas will be subject to meeting all other Australian nomination and visa requirements.

6.	Following agreement between DIBP and the project company on the areas referred to in paragraph 4, an IFA will be executed in a timely manner in the form of a deed of agreement between DIBP and the project company. The IFA will set out guaranteed occupations and the terms and conditions against which overseas workers can be nominated for a temporary skilled visa for the purposes of the eligible project. The IFA will also record any requirements and conditions that the project company must comply with. There will be no requirement for labour market testing to enter into an IFA.

7.	The IFA will be valid for four years from date of execution with the possibility of extension.


Issue of Visas under IFAs

8.	Once the IFA is executed, direct employers (including, where applicable, the project company) on the eligible project can seek the endorsement of the project company to enter into a labour agreement under the IFA with DIBP to sponsor and nominate temporary skilled workers to be engaged on the project. A labour agreement will be entered into in a timely manner and will set out the number, occupations and terms and conditions under which temporary skilled workers can be nominated, consistent with the terms of the IFA, and the sponsorship obligations associated with the labour agreement, including any requirements for labour market testing. 

9.	Employers will provide information as required by DIBP to meet the requirements for a labour agreement under the IFA. 

10.	Complete nomination and visa applications submitted under an approved IFA labour agreement will be processed in a timely manner. 

11.	All direct employers under an IFA and workers granted visas under an approved IFA labour agreement will be required to comply with applicable Australian laws, including workplace law, work safety law and relevant Australian licensing, regulation and certification standards.


Administrative Provisions

12.	The operation of this MOU will be reviewed by the Participants within two years of its commencement. 

13.	Changes to this MOU may be made at any time by a written arrangement between the Participants through diplomatic channels. The date of effect of any such change will be stipulated in the diplomatic correspondence.

14.	This MOU takes effect on the date that the Participants mutually determine and notify to each other in writing through diplomatic channels, and will remain in effect unless terminated.

15.	Any disputes between Participants which may arise over the interpretation and/or application of this MOU will be settled through direct negotiations and consultations.

SIGNED in duplicate at Canberra on the 17th day of June 2015 in the English and Mandarin (standard Chinese) languages, both texts being equally authentic.


For the Government of Australia:	For the Government of the People’s Republic of China:





*


----------



## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco,

how do you read Article 10.4, paragraph three, quoted above ?


----------



## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> noco,
> 
> how do you read Article 10.4, paragraph three, quoted above ?




It is countered against by other parts of the agreement...If you continue along the lines of Shorten and his unions, you will surely finish up with egg on your face.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...cal-on-china-fta/story-e6frg76f-1227509867288

Bill Shorten irresponsible and cynical on China FTA

    The Australian
    September 03, 2015 12:00AM

    Print
    Save for later

63
Greg Sheridan
Foreign Editor
Melbourne
https://plus.google.com/101372426793016687263

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews gave important national leadership this week. In one of the most important political and economic stories of the year, he utterly repudiated federal Labor leader Bill Shorten and expressed unqualified support for the free trade agreement that the Abbott government has negotiated with China.

As I wrote some time ago, the Labor Party is bitterly divided on this issue.

The three Labor premiers — Andrews, Jay Weatherill in *Adelaide and Annastacia Palaszczuk in Brisbane — plus Labor ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr, and NSW Labor Opposition Leader Luke Foley, have all come out in strong support of the FTA.

These Labor leaders come *substantially from the Left of the party but as state leaders they want the jobs that the China FTA represents.

Andrews’s intervention was devastating for Shorten. He told state parliament: “The free trade agreement is something that I *support and that our government supports, particularly for those industries — those export markets — that have been a staple, if you like, of our trading relationship and our economic development over such a long period of time, particularly in agribusiness, the food and fibre sector, but also in those new and emerging opportunities, with unprecedented *access in terms of the services *sector.”

Andrews agreed with a questioner who said that Andrews was in disagreement with Shorten.

Andrews said: “The leader of the Nationals expressed some surprise that a Victorian politician could disagree with his federal colleagues. Yes, and would we not be in a stronger position if those opposite stood up and found fault with Mr Abbott and his cutbacks and his closures?”

Remember, Andrews comes from the Left of his party and no senior figure has been more aligned with union influence than him. But he is also the Premier of Victoria and he deserves praise for taking those responsibilities *seriously.

It is worth pausing to note the extraordinary situation of TheAge * *in Melbourne and this story.

Here is the Victorian Premier, the most powerful Labor figure in government in Australia, on Tuesday in parliament explicitly repudiating Labor’s national leader on a key issue of national policy, and The Age on Wednesday didn’t mention it at all.

This is not a question of The Age being biased in its commentary, which it has every right to be. This is much worse. This is The Age effectively censoring critical facts that don’t fit its ideological agenda.

Labor is now bitterly divided on the FTA.

The list of Labor luminaries who have come out in strong support of the FTA as it stands is impressive. They include: Bob Hawke, Bob Carr, Simon Crean, Martin Ferguson, John Brumby, Kevin Rudd, Andrews, Weatherill, Barr, Palaszczuk and Foley.

All of those leaders, all loyal Labor people, support the FTA and think it so important that they are willing to disagree publicly with Shorten to do so.

Shorten and the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy oppose the FTA as it currently stands. Shorten’s position is the most irresponsible and cynically destructive I have seen in decades in federal politics.

Probably, the intervention of the state Labor leaders means that eventually Shorten’s Labor Party will embrace a humiliating back- down and pass the FTA enabling legislation.

It is complete nonsense for Labor spokespeople to say they haven’t seen the legislation yet and so can’t take a formal position on it.

The enabling legislation will be very straightforward Customs bills that will give effect to the new tariff levels negotiated in the FTA.

*The level of dishonesty in this debate, and the basic factual ignorance of so many who comment on it freely in the media, have been staggering. When commenting on Labor’s claims that the FTA undercut labour market testing provisions, Crean said: “The agreement doesn’t do that.”

As Rudd commented some time ago: “It’s the easiest thing in the world to run fear *agendas against free trade agreements.”

The China FTA doesn’t change labour market testing rules at all. Anyone coming in under the FTA to work in Australia will have to come in under existing 457 visa provisions. Under these visa provisions a number of occupations are exempted from labour market testing.

This is the regime that Labor under Rudd in his second stint as prime minister put in place. They have nothing to do with the China FTA. Any Australian government, including any future Labor *government, could easily tighten the 457 visa administration if it wanted to do. There were substantially more 457 visa holders in *Australia in the last year of Labor than there are now.

This whole campaign against the FTA is disgraceful demagoguery.*

The laziness of so many media commentators weighing in on this is also a sign of the decrepitude of our public debate. On Barrie *Cassidy’s Insiders program on ABC television at the weekend, one of the commentators pronounced pompously that in trade agreements there are always winners and losers and the problem is that some of the losers under this FTA, such as Australian tradies, are politically consequential.

This was a comment of staggering and invincible ignorance. There is not the slightest evidence that any Australian tradie would be a loser under this agreement. You are not a loser if you have a job that otherwise would not exist.

This lazy commentary simply *accepts the fear campaign as factually accurate.

It is still not quite clear how Shorten’s Labor will finally vote on the FTA. Does Labor see this as its Work Choices moment, when defying good policy makes good politics? The longer Shorten *allows this noxious campaign to go on, the more people in his party make extravagant comments that are then hard for him to back down from.

The Labor premiers have offered him a way out. He can promise to pass the FTA and say he will review it in office, and seek to renegotiate it — utter nonsense, but it would get him off the hook for the forthcoming vote — or simply that he will change 457 provisions if he wins government.

Or he can blow it up — as he presently threatens to do — and cost tens of thousands of Australian jobs.

This is surely one of the most disreputable episodes from federal Labor in modern politics.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

All that is bluster noco.

Shorten has said he is in favour of CHAFTA as long as Labor market testing can be guaranteed. Abbott refuses to cooperate on legislation allowing that to happen.


----------



## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> All that is bluster noco.
> 
> Shorten has said he is in favour of CHAFTA as long as Labor market testing can be guaranteed. Abbott refuses to cooperate on legislation allowing that to happen.




Please take the time to read it all...it will take you 2 to 3 hours....It is there in black and white that the Chines will have to abide by the rules as set out for 457 visas. ...I must admit when I first read that cherry picked article Jed quoted and you parotted did make think you may have had a point, then when you read into it, it then becomes much clearer that the unions are being dishonest.

Now please don't come back with this "BLUSTER" business ....Don't rely on what Billy boy and the unions quote to you......satisfy yourself and read it from A to Z.....

Recent comments of the Chinese ambassador, Ma Zhaoxu, could mean Bill Shorten’s delaying stance on the free-trade agreement with China may not only be a problem for our economic future but also for our good relationship with China (“Beijing urges ‘win-win deal’ be passed quickly”, 2/9).

The seriousness of the situation has not been lost on a growing number of Labor figures who are putting themselves at odds with Shorten and going out of their way to support the agreement.

Are we getting a glimpse of the sort of PM Shorten would make — one who, against our national interest, would bow to the power of the union clique that installed him as leader?


----------



## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> Recent comments of the Chinese ambassador, Ma Zhaoxu, could mean Bill Shorten’s delaying stance on the free-trade agreement with China may not only be a problem for our economic future but also for our good relationship with China (“Beijing urges ‘win-win deal’ be passed quickly”, 2/9).




Did you stop to think why the Chinese want this passed quickly ? People who do that know they are onto a good thing and want it signed off before people on our side notice the defects.

It's been 10 years, I don't think a couple of weeks matter.


----------



## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Did you stop to think why the Chinese want this passed quickly ? People who do that know they are onto a good thing and want it signed off before people on our side notice the defects.
> 
> It's been 10 years, I don't think a couple of weeks matter.




Rumpy, you are like a drowning man clutching at straws.

I repeat to you again.....Read it in full and stop believing in the dishonest Shorten and the ACTU....Listen to what the true ALP men are saying...Listen to the true ALP men who have the national interest at heart...They can not all be wrong.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> Rumpy, you are like a drowning man clutching at straws.
> 
> I repeat to you again.....Read it in full and stop believing in the dishonest Shorten and the ACTU....Listen to what the true ALP men are saying...Listen to the true ALP men who have the national interest at heart...They can not all be wrong.




Would be interesting to know how many of these "true ALP men" have positions on boards of companies doing business with China.


----------



## noco (3 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Would be interesting to know how many of these "true ALP men" have positions on boards of companies doing business with China.





Oh mu gawd you are getting desperate Rumpy......Give up son.....you are fighting a losing battle.


----------



## noco (16 September 2015)

Even the Labor voters are now saying Turnbull would make a better PM than Barnacle Bill.

Billy boy move off your perch......you are gooooooonnnnnnnnnnnne.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s-prime-minister/story-fnvc7dab-1227527418031

*N an incredible early lift in the polls, a majority of Labor voters said Malcolm Turnbull is a better Prime Minister over Bill Shorten

A snap Morgan poll conducted today on who Australian voters think is the better PM found Mr Turnbull is preferred by 70 per cent of voters compared to 24 per cent for Bill Shorten.

The special Snap SMS poll of 1204 voters also found a majority of Labor supporters say Mr Turnbull is the better leader, with 50 per cent supporting him compared to 44 per cent supporting Opposition Leader Bill Shorten.

“Turnbull leads clearly amongst both genders, across all States and Territories and leads Shorten across supporters of both major parties,” Gary Morgan said.

“Greens supporters have also swung behind the new Prime Minister: Turnbull 57 per cent; Shorten 38 per cent.’’

The early numbers in Mr Turnbull’s favour come after he faced his first revolt with three Nationals crossing the floor of the Senate to vote against the governmen*


----------



## Knobby22 (16 September 2015)

Yea, it was easy for Shorten to beat Abbott but he was never popular. He has no hope now.
I heard one betting company has paid out on the Libs winning the next election already.

Did you see the ALP meeting with Shorten saying one gone another to go as if it was a win? A lot of foolish bravado that was just embarrassing. They said things like Turnbull only cares about Turnbull etc. was just poor judgement. They need to sack their spin doctors. It actually made them look weak and foolish.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 September 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, it was easy for Shorten to beat Abbott but he was never popular. He has no hope now.
> I heard one betting company has paid out on the Libs winning the next election already.
> 
> Did you see the ALP meeting with Shorten saying one gone another to go as if it was a win? A lot of foolish bravado that was just embarrassing. They said things like Turnbull only cares about Turnbull etc. was just poor judgement. They need to sack their spin doctors. It actually made them look weak and foolish.




Better PM approval does not necessarily translate into election winning.

John Howard wasn't all that popular as PM but still won elections.

Labor will probably go for the tactic that Turnbull is a high flyer out of contact with "ordinary" people, and that may have some effect.


----------



## Tisme (16 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Better PM approval does not necessarily translate into election winning.
> 
> John Howard wasn't all that popular as PM but still won elections.
> 
> Labor will probably go for the tactic that Turnbull is a high flyer out of contact with "ordinary" people, and that may have some effect.




He will be glad the election occurs before the Commissioners of Inquiries, Speakers of the House and every other email/computer illiterate gets wise to the Heath Robinson national disgrace broadband network (NDBN)


----------



## noco (16 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Better PM approval does not necessarily translate into election winning.
> 
> John Howard wasn't all that popular as PM but still won elections.
> 
> Labor will probably go for the tactic that Turnbull is a high flyer out of contact with "ordinary" people, and that may have some effect.




Yes you are right.......More Fabian lies and propaganda....what ever it takes ha.


----------



## DB008 (16 September 2015)

It won't be Turnbull v Shorten come election time.

Half of the electorate doesn't know who Shorten is.

If ALP does keep Shorten, Libs will win.


----------



## Logique (17 September 2015)

Tanya Plibersek will be following the opinion polls closely. 

However, if the Coalition wins next time, it will be Malcolm that needs to watch the polls.


----------



## Logique (17 September 2015)

Which won't be happening if they pursue this nonsense:



> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ion-says-josh-frydenberg-20150916-gjnz42.html
> 
> *Malcolm Turnbull might take GST hike to the next election, says Josh Frydenberg*
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (17 September 2015)

Logique said:


> Tanya Plibersek will be following the opinion polls closely.
> 
> However, if the Coalition wins next time, it will be Malcolm that needs to watch the polls.




Bill is one of those Cromwellian patient types who  ..puts his trust in God; but minds to keep his powder dry. He doesn't have to do anything while the LNP implodes.


----------



## dutchie (17 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Bill is one of those Cromwellian patient types who  ..puts his trust in God; but minds to keep his powder dry. He doesn't have to do anything while the LNP implodes.




Shorten is not that smart.


----------



## noco (17 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten is not that smart.




Yes you are right but he is as cunning as a $**t house rat.


----------



## noco (17 September 2015)

There is little doubt Turnbull has wedged Bill Shorten in with his commitment to a carbon dioxide tax going into the next election or will Bill do  Gillard and say "THERE WILL BE NO CARBON TAX UNDER A GOVERNMENT I LEAD"

I mean , this bloke must have rocks in his head if he chains this carbon tax to his ankles. .



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1442451046149


----------



## Tisme (17 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten is not that smart.




Not so vacuously smart not to be leader of the countries biggest single vote getter.....something you and I haven't managed thus far.

Of course he's smart.... Quentin would allow her bloodlines to be diluted by a dope.


Noco is correct in one aspect; I suspect that Bill appreciates Faith, Hope, Charity and Rat Cunning.


----------



## noco (19 September 2015)

Shorten is getting shorter....not in height but in popularity.

The general consensus is he is gone......the events of the week with Turnbull replacing Abbott has thrown the Labor Party into turmoil......All their planning and strategy to defeat Abbott has blown out the window.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...t-gift-poll-gone/story-fnbcok0h-1227533935182

*Bill Shorten was supremely confident he could defeat Tony Abbott after just one term in government. But even before the political system shuddered with yet another change in prime minister, this time to Malcolm Turnbull, there was pessimism in Labor ranks about the next election.

Labor was ready to run a campaign capitalising on Abbott’s unpopularity and breach of voter trust. This was Labor’s core strategy.

“There’s no doubt the wind has gone out of our sails,” a senior Labor figure said this week. “When you remove Abbott, you completely change the conversation with voters.”

In one fell swoop, Labor’s trump card has been snatched from its hands. A campaign that simultaneously presented Abbott as a fool and a danger has been scuttled. This was always a harsh assessment of Abbott, but it is one Labor had embraced and believed would resonate with voters.

Turnbull presents a much bigger challenge for Shorten. “Let’s face it,” one Labor MP reasoned, “anything is worse for Labor than Abbott.” But they added: “It’s too early to assess what it means. Changes are never free — what is the cost? What is the price of blood?”

Knowing exactly what a Turnbull prime ministership means for Shorten cannot be known definitively at this stage. Turnbull’s success will depend on being able to unite his party and turn the government in a new direction to rebuild trust. This challenge cannot be underestimated.

Yet Labor’s reliance on Abbott’s unpopularity made it complacent. So the spotlight is now on Shorten. Internal Labor criticism of Shorten’s staff, his political strategy, policy choices, party management and communication skills is not hard to find. After all, the polls show Shorten is unpopular with voters. Already Turnbull has seen support for the Coalition surge and he trounces Shorten as preferred prime minister, 62 per cent to 38 per cent.

Labor’s opposition to the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement — worth billions to the economy — put Shorten at odds with state Labor leaders and party elders. Labor’s polling, however, shows it is tapping into voter concern about unemployment and job security.*


----------



## sydboy007 (19 September 2015)

noco said:


> Yes you are right but he is as cunning as a $**t house rat.




Wow.  How does that compare to your accusations against the fabians for restoring to slurs and insults?


----------



## sydboy007 (19 September 2015)

noco said:


> Shorten is getting shorter....not in height but in popularity.
> 
> The general consensus is he is gone......the events of the week with Turnbull replacing Abbott has thrown the Labor Party into turmoil......All their planning and strategy to defeat Abbott has blown out the window.




One leak already about how Turnbull appointed less woman than any other minister.

So I don't think Turnbull has consolidated his power as yet, and with the likes of hadley and your though leader bolt in shock over the Abbottocalypse, I can see MT having to spend a lot of time protecting his flank, let along thinking about going on the offensive with decent policy.

Hopefully Shorten is now forced to start offering some decent policy, and I think if he's smart that would be a very good wedge tactic.  Show that MT is stuck with placating the loon pond right and his lustre will quickly fade.

MT either needs to assert his Liberal authority or it's going to be a very close election, one I'd say will be a poisoned chalice for the victor, because if we're not already in a technical recession by then, it wont be long after that we will be.

It'll just be a shame that Hockey wont be having to eat a lot of crow when his budget forecasts are shown to have been just as shoddy as Labor's and the deficit is ballooning towards $50B


----------



## noco (20 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> One leak already about how Turnbull appointed less woman than any other minister.
> 
> So I don't think Turnbull has consolidated his power as yet, and with the likes of hadley and your though leader bolt in shock over the Abbottocalypse, I can see MT having to spend a lot of time protecting his flank, let along thinking about going on the offensive with decent policy.
> 
> ...




Ah yes, Shorten's year of new ideas??????????????...where are they...Been waiting all year.

One down one to go says Shorten in reference to Tony Abbott..........The next one to go will most likely be Shorten himself......What a croc......He must be licking his wounds over the weekend.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2015)

> Polling conducted before Malcolm Turnbull ousted Tony Abbott as Prime Minister last week suggested the swing against the Liberals could have been as high as 10 per cent.
> 
> But Crikey election analyst William Bowe said a 6 per cent swing was not a bad result for either side.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...s-say-result-good-for-liberal-and-alp/6789540


----------



## Tisme (20 September 2015)

http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDivisionFirstPrefs-18126-236.htm

9% swing to Labor is fairly impressive ... looks like voters are switching to the majors




> SHARMA, Vimal Kumar	Palmer United Party	2,525	3.05	-3.83
> WHITTLE, Connor	Liberal Democrats	467	0.56	+0.56
> ALLEN, Michelle	Pirate Party	737	0.89	+0.89
> SMITH, Greg	Australian Defence Veterans Party	661	0.80	+0.80
> ...


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> 9% swing to Labor is fairly impressive ... looks like voters are switching to the majors



Not impressive enough.

Right now, Bill Shorten will be pooping his pants.

What's most interesting is the Greens. Hoping to get 10%, they've only got about 6% on the latest figures which is down from the 2013 election.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/2015-canning/results/ 

A lesson for the majors here is that if they run half-way decent candidates, the protest vote towards the Greens evaporates.


----------



## IFocus (21 September 2015)

Labor no longer needs Bill to win government they now have their undercover plant in Malcolm running the show


----------



## noco (21 September 2015)

IFocus said:


> Labor no longer needs Bill to win government they now have their undercover plant in Malcolm running the show




That is something I have always been suspicious about.....The Fabian indoctrinated LUG party would do what ever it takes.

Is Malcolm a wolf in sheep's clothing?.......Only time will tell.


----------



## Tisme (22 September 2015)

IFocus said:


> Labor no longer needs Bill to win government they now have their undercover plant in Malcolm running the show






Of course I'm on record as considering Malcolm a hollow man, a shadow of his previous self, so I'm going to have to eat humble pie if he does actually perform. 

Bill doesn't seem too peturbed and I really don't understand why the ABC and public bar experts keep saying things like the Canning by election are painful for him?

We are yet to see if we have a dead cat bounce in the polls, especially once the honeymoon period is over and the public realise they are still going backwards in terms of what they can afford. It's going to take some time to turn around the negative impetus from deliberately stagnating govt spend.


----------



## DB008 (5 October 2015)

Is Shorten PM material?

He tweeted this after the Parramatta shooting.

I will never vote from him.


​


----------



## noco (5 October 2015)

DB008 said:


> Is Shorten PM material?
> 
> He tweeted this after the Parramatta shooting.
> 
> ...




Yeah, never mind about the family of the poor bugger who shot by this terrorist...

Good on ya Bill.


----------



## dutchie (5 October 2015)

DB008 said:


> Is Shorten PM material?
> 
> He tweeted this after the Parramatta shooting.
> 
> ...




Gotta get those Muslim votes.

Wanker.


----------



## Ferret (5 October 2015)

I think that tweet is totally out of step with the views of most Australians.  Makes me wonder if it is real???


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2015)

Ferret said:


> I think that tweet is totally out of step with the views of most Australians.  Makes me wonder if it is real???




I think it's a selective snippet designed to discredit Shorten. I'm sure his first words would have been for the victim's family.


----------



## DB008 (5 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's a selective snippet designed to discredit Shorten. I'm sure his first words would have been for the victim's family.




l'll have a dig around the ALPBC and see where the quote came from....


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2015)

Parramatta shooting: Bill Shorten says radical groups preying on young people are the 'terrorist version of paedophiles'




> Opposition Leader Bill Shorten has hit out at any radical groups encouraging teenage terrorism as investigations continue into last week's fatal shooting in Parramatta.
> 
> "If there are organisations in this country preying upon vulnerable young people, filling their head full of murderous, crazy nonsense, then those organisations are breaching their social contract with the Australian people," Mr Shorten said.
> 
> ...




You can't really say he's going soft on radicalism.


----------



## drsmith (5 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You can't really say he's going soft on radicalism.



He's just gone for what sounds most emotive.

In making the comparison, I wonder whether he first considered the following,



> Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. Traditional sources state that she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives


----------



## dutchie (7 October 2015)

Looks like Bill negotiated the funds for another campaign manager for himself.


Coles employee takes legal action over deal that 'leaves workers worse off'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-06/coles-employee-takes-legal-action-over-union-deal/6830818


----------



## noco (7 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> Looks like Bill negotiated the funds for another campaign manager for himself.
> 
> 
> Coles employee takes legal action over deal that 'leaves workers worse off'
> ...




You have got to be joking...Barnacle Bill would not leave workers worse off surely.....I only heard him TV saying that he always gets the best deal for workers like he did for Cleanevent and Chiquita.


No, no, no our Bill would not do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!....and pigs might fly??????????


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

I think if you're going to have a crack at Bill for workers rights it would be prudent to come to the table with clean hands. So far the stories have been fairytales designed to feed the chooks.


----------



## dutchie (7 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think if you're going to have a crack at Bill for workers rights it would be prudent to come to the table with clean hands. So far the stories have been fairytales designed to feed the chooks.




My hands are cleaner than Bills.

But your right, a fairytale, based on a little bit of truth.


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

and for the record from Bill's twitter account:



> *Bill Shorten ‏@billshortenmp  Oct 3
> 
> This is a truly shocking incident - Our thoughts are with the family of Curtis Cheng, as well as his colleagues*




I can't find any reference to sympathy for the 15 yearold or his parents on his twitter account. I also can't readily find the #ParamattaShooting ABC tweet that people have posted as fact ...anyone ??


----------



## Ferret (7 October 2015)

I'm no fan of Shorten, but I think it's despicable that some would seek to discredit him this way.


----------



## bellenuit (8 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> and for the record from Bill's twitter account:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find any reference to sympathy for the 15 yearold or his parents on his twitter account. I also can't readily find the #ParamattaShooting ABC tweet that people have posted as fact ...anyone ??




I found it under ABC News 24 on Twitter. Scroll back to Oct 3rd. A few tweets before it says he (Shorten) was about to make an address on the shooting, so I guess the quote is from that address rather than a tweet he made. Read from the bottom up to get the correct chronological order.

BTW,  I can't find any comment from Shorten regarding the police officer that was killed. Perhaps he said something at the address and the ABC didn't tweet it or it may be under another hashtag or perhaps he didn't make any comment in that respect.


----------



## drsmith (8 October 2015)

Bill Shorten's statement re-Parramatta shooting,



> This is a truly shocking incident in one of Sydney’s busiest CBDs.
> 
> Our thoughts are with the family and friends of Curtis Cheng, particularly his colleagues in the NSW Police Force who are in mourning today.
> 
> ...




http://billshorten.com.au/category/media_releases


----------



## Tisme (8 October 2015)

So ABC doing their own selective tweets as statement being made


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> So ABC doing their own selective tweets as statement being made




So the ABC is biased are they ?

They may well be, but not the way a lot of people here think they are.

Shorten would be within his rights to have a crack at them for misrepresentation.


----------



## Tisme (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So the ABC is biased are they ?
> 
> They may well be, but not the way a lot of people here think they are.
> 
> Shorten would be within his rights to have a crack at them for misrepresentation.




I think it's important that people here are sensible enough to get the whole story before making bold statements. Bill did not tweet those tweets and his press comments were commendable IMO....God knows one of my own has caused me great distress and I'd hate to think I would be denied the empathy of others for anxiety and hurt of something I couldn't control.

PS : I follow Bill, Mal, Julie, etc on Twitter


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2015)

The ABC know they can't win with Blll, they want him gone.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

wayneL said:


> The ABC know they can't win with Blll, they want him gone.




The ABC is not a political party.

Join the evidence club wayne! All you need to do to get in is provide some evidence for your insinuation that the ABC is a mouthpiece for the Labor party.

EDIT: Disclaimer, I really really really dislike Bill Shorten as a human being and career politician.


----------



## No Trust (8 October 2015)

Shorten will never be Prime Minister.. His Union affiliations and more importantly *general demeanor *i.e. lack of any hint of charisma will put paid to that..

Reported rumours of affairs also cast a bad light.. If you *cheat on your family *you will be perceived as capable of cheating at everything else..

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...or-g-gs-daughter/story-e6freuzr-1111117539555

http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...f-members-pregnant-shorten-calls-the-lawyers/


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> The ABC is not a political party.
> 
> Join the evidence club wayne! All you need to do to get in is provide some evidence for your insinuation that the ABC is a mouthpiece for the Labor party.
> 
> EDIT: Disclaimer, I really really really dislike Bill Shorten as a human being and career politician.




Do we need any more evidence than QandA?


----------



## noco (8 October 2015)

wayneL said:


> Do we need any more evidence than QandA?




41% Greens and 32% left wing Labor are on the staff of the ABC..........enough said.


----------



## sinner (9 October 2015)

wayneL said:


> Do we need any more evidence than QandA?




For real? 60 mins of programming once a week where politicians and nutters of all walks get a platform to spout useless, trite rhetoric in response to genuine (regardless of misguided) questions from the public?

That's your evidence? Dude, have you watched Fox News ever? 

May as well be claiming proof that Peppa Pig is a mouthpiece for the "four legs good, two legs bad" party 



noco said:


> 41% Greens and 32% left wing Labor are on the staff of the ABC..........enough said.




nocobot, since you were unwilling to provide a reference I went and looked it up for you

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...abc-survey-finds/story-fn59niix-1226647246897

and surprise surprise, the actual numbers say nothing of the sort. They merely represent the 34 journalists at the ABC who were willing to disclose their voting intention! 

The actual numbers from the poll of course paint the full picture.

I also found a much more interesting and convincing article from Crikey which shows a vastly different story

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/06/25/speaking-of-media-independence-how-does-aunty-fare/



> In an attempt to see past the political mud-throwing, Crikey hunted for ex-ABC people who went on to work for Labor or the Coalition — and we’ve found the spread is pretty even. As of Tuesday morning, we’ve found 15 ex-ABC people who went on to the Labor politicians (or candidates), while 13 went to the Coalition camp.




This above finding closely echoes the findings mentioned here from 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Broadcasting_Corporation#cite_note-91 .

You are distorting the numbers to suit your crazy robotic rants. Enough said.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2015)

sinner said:


> For real? 60 mins of programming once a week where politicians and nutters of all walks get a platform to spout useless, trite rhetoric in response to genuine (regardless of misguided) questions from the public?
> 
> That's your evidence? Dude, have you watched Fox News ever?
> 
> May as well be claiming proof that Peppa Pig is a mouthpiece for the "four legs good, two legs bad" party




I do apologize for inferring the ABC is the broadcasting arm of the ALP. It is actually a conglomeration, an axis of dark forces consisting of Greens, Socialists, Communists, Fabians, Illuminati, Men in Black, Zetas, Reptilians, Annunaki and CMFEU officials.

I don't know what Fox has to do with the ABC? :


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

wayneL said:


> Do we need any more evidence than QandA?




Nothing wrong with Q&A. Just because people ask questions you may find discomforting doesn't mean the program is biased.

Tony Jones does a good job and he rips in to pollies of all sides.

Again , if people prefer to watch Bolt, that's up to them but it doesn't mean Q&A is biased.


----------



## Tink (9 October 2015)

Hear hear, Wayne and noco.
It should have been privatised.

On going pushing for their own agenda.

Many weren't happy with the change of Malcolm Turnbull in the Liberal Party, but the left are, and of course, their ABC. 
It says it all.

As was said at the coup, we would wait and see, but my opinion hasn't changed since my last post

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...27364&page=386&p=883666&viewfull=1#post883666


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Nothing wrong with Q&A. Just because people ask questions you may find discomforting doesn't mean the program is biased.
> 
> Tony Jones does a good job and he rips in to pollies of all sides.
> 
> Again , if people prefer to watch Bolt, that's up to them but it doesn't mean Q&A is biased.




Yes, loaded questions selected by Tony Jones.......take your blimkers off Rumpy......even blind Freddie and see that....Like that Zachery Mullah or what ever his name is.


----------



## Logique (9 October 2015)

I'm not so sure Bill Shorten will make it to the election. 

Within the party room, he wouldn't survive too many consecutive poor opinion polls, and may have to take the fall if the unions royal commission turns out badly.


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Nothing wrong with Q&A. Just because people ask questions you may find discomforting doesn't mean the program is biased.
> 
> Tony Jones does a good job and he rips in to pollies of all sides.
> 
> Again , if people prefer to watch Bolt, that's up to them but it doesn't mean Q&A is biased.




What about Paul Murray on Fox 601?...I guess you would call him biased against barnacle Bill.

Murray does a good job of exposing Shorten for what he really is...A waffling on adulteress liar......Yeah Shorten for the working people....ahla Chiquita and Clean Event...Workers were worse off but you lefties never comment on that.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> What about Paul Murray on Fox 601?...I guess you would call him biased against barnacle Bill.
> 
> Murray does a good job of exposing Shorten for what he really is...A waffling on adulteress liar......Yeah Shorten for the working people....ahla Chiquita and Clean Event...Workers were worse off but you lefties never comment on that.




Typical reply of a hater, bringing someones personal life (substantiated or not) into a discussion about policies.

Shame.


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> What about Paul Murray on Fox 601?...I guess you would call him biased against barnacle Bill.
> 
> Murray does a good job of exposing Shorten for what he really is...A waffling on adulteress liar......Yeah Shorten for the working people....ahla Chiquita and Clean Event...Workers were worse off but you lefties never comment on that.




I wonder what the rate of divorce and adultry is these days? All of us are liars so that insult won't fly


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Typical reply of a hater, bringing someones personal life (substantiated or not) into a discussion about policies.
> 
> Shame.




So you are saying Bill Shorten should be Prime Minister....He has not set a very good example really....Yeah and we had plenty of Tony Abbott haters I guess including your comrades of the left.


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> So you are saying Bill Shorten should be Prime Minister....He has not set a very good example really....Yeah and we had plenty of Tony Abbott haters I guess including your comrades of the left.




You can follow Bill here Noco.   https://twitter.com/billshortenmp?lang=en

Plenty of stuff to get upset at, for example:



> Australia's tough gun laws have worked & must be protected







> Today I will announce Labor’s plan to build the infrastructure Australia needs to create jobs and grow our economy




on the refugee woman raped by Nauru man and consequently pregnant 



> Time for compassion to ensure this young woman gets the medical help she needs. I'm stunned the Govt can't see that.





Shorten is out of control !!!!!!


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> You can follow Bill here Noco.   https://twitter.com/billshortenmp?lang=en
> 
> Plenty of stuff to get upset at, for example:
> 
> ...




Shorten is purely symbolic and full of empty rhetoric but the naive swallow it.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> Shorten is purely symbolic and full of empty rhetoric but the naive swallow it.




Some people fell for Abbott's b.s. too, to their cost.


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Some people fell for Abbott's b.s. too, to their cost.




Well we've all seen, what happened to Abbott. 
Shortens only saving grace is, the Labor Party is completely bereft of quality presenters. If they had anyone with any credibility, I think Shorten would be ejected.

Chris Bowen needs to grow a pair and stop looking like he is appologising, as he IMO, is the only one that isn't carrying baggage.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Some people fell for Abbott's b.s. too, to their cost.




???? How did this become about Tony?


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Well we've all seen, what happened to Abbott.
> Shortens only saving grace is, the Labor Party is completely bereft of quality presenters. If they had anyone with any credibility, I think Shorten would be ejected.
> 
> Chris Bowen needs to grow a pair and stop looking like he is appologising, as he IMO, is the only one that isn't carrying baggage.




I'm more worried that the Tanya gets the guernsey  ... that would really irritate me and not much genuinely irritates me. Just the rolling eyes makes me want to turn her off. God help us all if the Penny moves to the lower house.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Well we've all seen, what happened to Abbott.
> Shortens only saving grace is, the Labor Party is completely bereft of quality presenters.




I respectfully disagree.

Albanese, Chris Bowen, Jason Clare, Mark Butler, Tony Burke (50%), Mark Dreyfuss are all presentable but it looks like Bill is running Presidential style which could be Labor's undoing.

Shorten needs to give a few other front runners some air.


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Albanese, Chris Bowen, Jason Clare, Mark Butler, Tony Burke (50%), Mark Dreyfuss are all presentable but it looks like Bill is running Presidential style which could be Labor's undoing.
> 
> Shorten needs to give a few other front runners some air.




Albanese,   Burke,

No the best chance Labor have is Richard Di Natele.


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Some people fell for Abbott's b.s. too, to their cost.




What has Abbott got to do with this thread....Off beat Rumpy.


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm more worried that the Tanya gets the guernsey  ... that would really irritate me and not much genuinely irritates me. Just the rolling eyes makes me want to turn her off. God help us all if the Penny moves to the lower house.




Yes there is Tanya?????.....Now she is a real true blue Fabian and I would Penny in the same category.


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Albanese, Chris Bowen, Jason Clare, Mark Butler, Tony Burke (50%), Mark Dreyfuss are all presentable but it looks like Bill is running Presidential style which *could be Labor's undoing.*
> 
> Shorten needs to give a few other front runners some air.





Labor is already undone.


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Albanese,   Burke,
> 
> No the best chance Labor have is Richard Di Natele.




No...I would say Di Natelle will outstrip the Labor Party.....The unions are already donating heavily to the Greens because The Greens have the ideology that suits the unions and that is why Shorten can't divorce himself from the unions.


----------



## Tisme (12 October 2015)

You can take that to the bank!

Funny for those philistines who watch the ABC and enjoy watching the bias the ABC has for Bill and the Fabianistas:

Clicky:


----------



## Logique (15 October 2015)

And so it begins..



> *The bad news is piling up for Bill Shorten without his Abbott buffer*
> 
> Paul Sheehan - Sydney Morning Herald columnist - October 14, 2015
> SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-b...ott-buffer-20151014-gk8zp7.html#ixzz3oZviWj3W
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2015)

Logique said:


> And so it begins..




He shouldn't be panicking if he has confidence in his policies.

He needs to sit tight for a while, wait till the election is called, then blitz us with some good alternative policies. If he does that he will get some respect back.


----------



## noco (15 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> He shouldn't be panicking if he has confidence in his policies.
> 
> He needs to sit tight for a while, wait till the election is called, then blitz us with some good alternative policies. If he does that he will get some respect back.




Barnacle Bull's survival rate is diminishing by the day......He might finish up sitting tight in the "JUG" after more damning evidence against him at TURC.......Bill is gonnnnne.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...awu-fraud-vortex/story-fn59noo3-1227569486174

*Attempts by Bill Shorten’s lawyers to distance him from an allegedly fraudulent “side deal” involving the Australian Workers Union failed yesterday when a key royal commission witness reaffirmed that the now Opposition Leader was intimately involved in the dealings.

Under cross-examination by Mr Shorten’s legal team, Julian Rzesniowiecki, former human *resources and safety manager for the joint venture developing Melbourne’s $2.5 billion EastLink tollway project, stood firmly by his claims the then AWU national secretary had instigated a deal under which hundreds of thousands of dollars of secret payments were made to the union*.


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2015)

noco said:


> Barnacle Bull's survival rate is diminishing by the day......He might finish up sitting tight in the "JUG" after more damning evidence against him at TURC.......Bill is gonnnnne.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...awu-fraud-vortex/story-fn59noo3-1227569486174
> 
> ...




The human resources manager can't tell the commission why the transaction isn't recorded in the companies books per his yarns...... his word against others and he might just find he is found out for perjury and conclusion with the commission....... such things do happen.


----------



## noco (15 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> The human resources manager can't tell the commission why the transaction isn't recorded in the companies books per his yarns...... his word against others and he might just find he is found out for perjury and conclusion with the commission....... such things do happen.




I think it is wishful thinking on your part.


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2015)

noco said:


> I think it is wishful thinking on your part.




Not at all, I couldn't care less if Bill gets found out, but given the nature of the inquiry and its obvious witch hunt agenda I think it would be plausible this bloke is one of the squealers hidden since before the start of proceedings.

If you have ever worked in the big end construction arena you would know the whole thing has a 99% chance of nonsense evidence ans there are always Gordon Greche's hanging around the perimeter looking to skewer some one.


----------



## Logique (24 October 2015)

Movement in the camp? According to ALP polling, Tanya rates first amongst the equals.



> *Bill Shorten starts to become an issue for Labor*
> James Massola, Political correspondent- Sydney Morning Herald - October 24, 2015
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ecome-an-issue-for-labor-20151023-gkgpr3.html


----------



## Ferret (24 October 2015)

I don't think he'll be around much longer.

I'm a swing voter and Shorten is really starting to grate on me.  I think his pitches have become more desperate Turnbull took over.  I'm sure his days are numbered.

The thing is, there doesn't seem to be a strong alternative in Labor at this time.  Turnbull will walk it in at the next election, and I'll be quite happy about that.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 October 2015)

Ferret said:


> I don't think he'll be around much longer.
> 
> I'm a swing voter and Shorten is really starting to grate on me.  I think his pitches have become more desperate Turnbull took over.  I'm sure his days are numbered.
> 
> The thing is, there doesn't seem to be a strong alternative in Labor at this time.  Turnbull will walk it in at the next election, and I'll be quite happy about that.




Most people think that Labor will lose the next election, so I think they should at least go down fighting.

Put in a decent pitch for a proper Minerals Resource Rent Tax like we already have on oil and gas as an alternative to GST lifting/widening and they would have a good chance if they sell it properly. Likewise for cracking down on NG and super tax breaks.

Of course I think we are being a bit hard on Shorten as he obviously want to keep his powder dry untill the election.


----------



## Tisme (25 October 2015)

Logique said:


> Movement in the camp? According to ALP polling, Tanya rates first amongst the equals.





If  she gets up I'll probably give my vote to Turbull's camp..... I've had enough of her and Wong's gender politics...

...that'll teach both a lesson


----------



## bellenuit (25 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> If  she gets up I'll probably give my vote to Turbull's camp..... I've had enough of her and Wong's gender politics...
> 
> ...that'll teach both a lesson




Not to forget her exploiting the Indonesian phone tapping issue to embarrass the coalition government even though it happened under the Labor Party's term in office. Treachery imho.


----------



## noco (27 October 2015)

Is Bill Shorten PM material????????????

It would appear voters have answered that question very clearly.

Shorten is gone.......Tanya will be in to make things worse for Labor.

Labor never learns from their mistakes.

Bring on a DD in March 2016.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ull-surges-ahead/story-fnihslxi-1227583286958

*BILL Shorten’s popularity has plunged to a record low, while Malcolm Turnbull’s support as preferred prime minister has skyrocketed, according to the latest Newspoll.

But it’s not only good news for the PM, with the coalition increasing its lead against Labor in two-party terms, from 50 to 52 per cent , while Labor dipped to 48.
Happy ... The Prime Minister of Australia Malcolm Turnbull. Picture: Getty

The poll published in The Australian shows Mr Turnbull has increased his standing as “better PM” from 57 per cent two weeks ago to 63 per cent.

Mr Shorten fell to his worst result, dropping two per cent to 17.
Unpopular ... Opposition leader Bill Shorten. Picture: Tait Schmaal

The Newspoll survey also shows support for the Greens has slipped one point to 11 per cent, while “others” stands at nine per cent.*


----------



## dutchie (27 October 2015)

noco said:


> Is Bill Shorten PM material????????????
> 
> It would appear voters have answered that question very clearly.
> 
> ...





I'm predicting that Shortens' approval rate will go into the negative number.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> I'm predicting that Shortens' approval rate will go into the negative number.




Imagine how Tony feels having trailed Shorten by a country mile.


----------



## MrBurns (27 October 2015)

I think Shorten will put on a false beard and skip the country soon, he must be terribly embarrassed


----------



## noco (27 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> I think Shorten will put on a false beard and skip the country soon, he must be terribly embarrassed




He has only got himself to blame.....He only has a half a brain.

He comes on TV for an interview and all he has to say is :-

Mr.Turnbulls gunna cut ya pension.

Mr.Tirnbulls gunna cut ya penalty rates.

Mr. Turnbulls gunna cut ya kids family benefits.

Wake up Bill!!!!!....people are sick of hearing your BS after you cut the penalty rates to the Chiquita and Cleanevent workers..

Stop being a bloody hypocrite.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2015)

noco said:


> He has only got himself to blame.....He only has a half a brain.
> 
> He comes on TV for an interview and all he has to say is :-
> 
> ...




The problem for Bill is, the general public know cuts are needed, he's an idiot.IMO

While Abbott was there, he was the focal point of all the blame, know he's gone Bill has to use his charm and charisma.

That should go into the joke thread.

Bill's on life support and it won't be long before it is switched off.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2015)

It is a shame Crean and Ferguson retired, last election, jeez they could do with those two now.IMO


----------



## MrBurns (27 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It is a shame Crean and Ferguson retired, last election, jeez they could do with those two now.IMO




Couple of creeps IMO


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Couple of creeps IMO




I don't disagree with that, but at least they were stable, the Labor Party at the moment is loony tune amusement park.
The general public, can't work out where any sensible Labor policy is going to come from, then the policy has to be sold by Bill. 

Best of luck with that.

It just isn't good for Australia in general, when the major opposition party is incoherent. Two strong political parties, makes for more robust and intelligently formulated, vision.

We really do need that, recent political history has been too focused on, soap opera politics. 
Maybe to reinforce, why we don't need the Republican model imagine President Kev, Julia or Tony.

I would think it would be more apt, to have an aptitude test, when someone enters parliament.

Then they could be at least ranked on their mental competence, most employers do that for employees.


----------



## MrBurns (27 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I don't disagree with that, but at least they were stable, the Labor Party at the moment is loony tune amusement park.
> The general public, can't work out where any sensible Labor policy is going to come from, then the policy has to be sold by Bill.
> Best of luck with that.
> It just isn't good for Australia in general, when the major opposition party is incoherent. Two strong political parties, makes for more robust and intelligently formulated, vision.
> ...




Yep, agree but the ALP has no one worthy of leading them and I agree that's not good for Australia but it may make them wake up to themselves and provide a quality leader.

Not sure who though......


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Yep, agree but the ALP has no one worthy of leading them and I agree that's not good for Australia but it may make them wake up to themselves and provide a quality leader.
> 
> Not sure who though......




The problem is Labor are playing to a lost audience, Australia, whether we like it or not, are now part of the 'Global' economy.

They decided to a part of it, but are now trying to play to peoples fear of it, people have moved on Labor hasn't.

As can be seen by Bluescope workers agreeing to compromise, workers aren't stupid, but Labor are still talking "we aren't going to give up jobs to overseas".

Yet they gave Gina the ok, to bring in overseas workers for Roy Hill, how stupid do they think the Australian voter is.

They need to get a coherent agenda, even if it is just a general, believable vision.

With the proviso, they come up with a way to fund it, that will make it difficult for them.


----------



## noco (28 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Couple of creeps IMO




Yeah but probably the best of all the creeps in the LUG Party.


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2015)

noco said:


> Yeah but probably the best of all the creeps in the LUG Party.




Absulutely noco, I personally am disenfranchised with Labor, as I feel they represent personal gain over party ideology.

When they get back to what is best for Australians, rather than, what they think everyone wants to hear. I'll vote for them.

At the moment, they don't have a clue of who they are representing, or the ramifications of their add hock ideas, I wouldn't even rate them as policies.

Maybe someone can talk Keating into returning to politics, if not, Labor are going the way of Don Chipp and the Australian Democrats.

Some loony will take control and sink it.


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Absulutely noco, I personally am disenfranchised with Labor, as I feel they represent personal gain over party ideology.
> 
> When they get back to what is best for Australians, rather than, what they think everyone wants to hear. I'll vote for them.
> 
> ...




Perhaps someone should have impressed upon the Labor pollies that the honeymoon period that should have been afforded Turnbull would have given them the same grace period to formulate an action plan.

So long as Plibersek and Wong have a public profile with their dismissive styles, it's going to be hard for all but lesbians, hard core laborites and man faced feminists to connect.... they seem more focused on how to make people around the margins feel included than realising there are a vast majority who have a selfish desire to do better with some encouragement from govt.


----------



## poverty (28 October 2015)

To me the ALP has never made sense.  

Supports:

- the rough around the edges blue collar workers and champion of the organised crime-based unions
- gay rights movement, greenies etc

The average blue-collar bloke would probably be happy to drive over a greenie with his bulldozer or back over him in his V8 ute, probably doesn't care much for 'pooftas' either.

Could the two supporter bases be any more poles apart?  This is why it takes a more than ordinairy leader to make a Labor government work.  Hawke and Keating could seize the middle ground and inspire the nation, Gillard and Shorten?  Their condescending dreary primary-school teacher speeches makes one want for euthanasia.  If it wasn't for compulsory voting Labor would be a non-entity.


----------



## dutchie (31 October 2015)

Yet another good reason not to vote Labor.

Desperate Bill wants to lower the voting age to 16.


----------



## MrBurns (31 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> Yet another good reason not to vote Labor.
> 
> Desperate Bill wants to lower the voting age to 16.




He's a devious, no good, lying SOB
That about covers it...


----------



## noco (31 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> He's a devious, no good, lying SOB
> That about covers it...




A desperate move by a desperate man......


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...588806511?sv=cc75817a6820ae80172c52a6098b6df4


Here are the first 3 readers comments....Check out the other 200 or so.

Bill must think voters are stupid like himself.

*Graeme
44 minutes ago

Here we go again, another distraction from Bill's low rating, the left media will be all over this and we can expect nothing else for the next week or so. He should have waited until the Royal Commission Report is to be released, he will certainly need a distraction then.
FlagShare
1GrahamLikeReply
Jim
Jim
46 minutes ago

The Turnbull factor. They are now so certain of an election wipe out in years to come that they resort to this. The Teachers union will become the front line in their battle to win over the minds of youth. What a desperate, grubby mob they have become.
FlagShare
2GrahamRyanLikeReply
Steve
Steve
46 minutes ago

Is this an election policy announcement? Or is it the act of a desperate man trying to distract the electorate? I’m sure that this demographic would almost all vote labor or greens but where would this newly empowered group take us Bill? Lower the drinking age perhaps, subsidies for skateboards? Automatic pass for VCE and entry to uni with $50,000 per year Austudy. The possibilities are endless. *


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## MrBurns (31 October 2015)

noco said:


> A desperate move by a desperate man......
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...588806511?sv=cc75817a6820ae80172c52a6098b6df4




Surely they have to move on him soon, I think someone else said when a Lib lags in the polls the media are all over challenge speculation, not so with Billy Liar...ABC bias again.


----------



## noco (31 October 2015)

Where is IFocus, Sydboy, Banco, Overhang and Sinner????????

Have you all gone in to hiding.

How about some comments about your comrade Bill?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2015)

MrBurns said:


> He's a devious, no good, lying SOB
> That about covers it...




Yeah, all those Labor people are lying rotten mongrels aren't they ?


----------



## Tisme (31 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah, all those Labor people are lying rotten mongrels aren't they ?




Probably ... proves they are human


----------



## Logique (31 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> Yet another good reason not to vote Labor.
> 
> Desperate Bill wants to lower the voting age to 16.



Can you go off to fight for your country at 16 (in Australia).


----------



## dutchie (31 October 2015)

Logique said:


> Can you go off to fight for your country at 16 (in Australia).




No.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2015)

> AGE RANGE FOR RECRUITMENT. You can join the ADF at 17 but start your application earlier if you wish. To apply for a career in the Navy, Army or Air Force you must be at least 16 years and 6 months old, though you can start thinking about a career in the ADF much earlier (see below).




http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitment-centre/can-i-join/age-gender/


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## noco (31 October 2015)

Logique said:


> Can you go off to fight for your country at 16 (in Australia).




NO.

Shorten is full of BS......if had a good $hit there would be nothing left of him.


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## sptrawler (1 November 2015)

noco said:


> NO.
> 
> Shorten is full of BS......if had a good $hit there would be nothing left of him.




I don't think the Government has mentioned Shorten once, it makes a difference, when the Government focuses on the job.

Unlike Labor for the last 7 years, it's Abbott's fault, Abbott's to blame, another poor stumble by Abbott.

Now Bill is thrashing around in ever decreasing circles, we all know where that ends.

Turnbull is saying much the same as Abbott, but Labor made it so much about Abbott, that know he has gone they can't say Turnbull's the problem,

Talk about dig your own grave, well done Bill.

Best of luck making it all about Malcolm, in the next 6 months, it is a tight schedule to re invent yourself.


----------



## noco (4 November 2015)

Poor old Bill...things are going from bad to worse.

Every idea he comes up with seems to turn to mud.

Billy boy, you will  have to find that "DUCK' that lays the golden egg.....the ducks you are using are too old and need steaming for Xmas dinner.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...593693105?sv=de60c06332249fa91912d74eb3f33338

*And if every silly season has a Santa, Shorten is surely it. More and more, the Opposition Leader resembles a second-rate actor who has assiduously studied a set of lines but hasn’t managed to inject any conviction into the role. This week Shorten has been on “a fact-finding mission” to the Pacific *Islands. Translation: the Opposition Leader thinks he can use global warming to dent Turnbull’s popularity.

Shorten’s core problem begins with his role in past policy. Shorten rode the Kevin ’07 wave into office when Labor’s position was that global warming was the great moral challenge of our time and required an emissions trading system. As a senior minister, he then backed Rudd’s change of heart to dump the ETS. Shorten was a critical backer of Julia Gillard, when Labor’s new position was “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”. He was there too when Labor signed a deal with the Greens to legislate a carbon tax.

Shorten has a long and unfortunate history of reactionary-style politics. As a union leader, he injected passion into his position. In politics, he simply looks like a desperate political leader trying to attract the increasing number of centrist voters who are looking favourably at Turnbull and the Coalition. Last week, there were racy lines Labor would devote more funding to encourage girls to learn coding, as he tried to beat off Turnbull’s talk of innovation as a driver of growth. The education system has failed us, Shorten said. Ominous words, except it only serves as a reminder that while the country has doubled spending on education over the past decade to $40 billion, outcomes on basic measures of literacy and num*eracy have gone backwards *according to the most recent international scorecards of educational achievements. Shorten’s shadow boxing was evident as soon as Turnbull became PM. Labor’s attacks on Turnbull’s wealth served only to remind voters we have a PM who was highly successful before he entered politics and understands business. It makes a refreshing change from the career politicians who have never worked in the real world.

Last week Shorten proposed giving the vote to 16  and 17-year-olds. That went nowhere except into the cynical box, given Shorten thinks his best chance at winning an election comes by winning over teenagers under 18. If you can’t attract enough adult votes, well, to put it politely, you’re stuffed.

With the COP21 summit fast approaching, Shorten is now desperate to make climate change a positive for Labor. But, once again, his problem is one of believability. No one can question that Turnbull genuinely believes in the human drivers of global warming. It drives his critics mad and weakens the knees of his admirers.

Shorten’s history, on the other hand, is replete with stark episodes of him making statements thrust into his hands by spin doctors and pollsters. There’s no detail on the Opposition Leader’s uncosted “aspirational” 50 per cent renewable energy target. Nor has Shorten told us what Labor’s emissions target would be if he were the PM heading to Paris. A four-day visit to our Pacific neighbours does nothing to build Shorten and Labor’s credentials.*


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## Knobby22 (4 November 2015)

I actually think Shorten has a few brains - not up to Turnbull's standard though.
He needs to sack his spin merchants. Labor are really sucking at present as you have pointed out noco..


----------



## MrBurns (4 November 2015)

Billy Liars mates at work again - 


CFMEU fined over threats to disrupt work on Melbourne train station

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...eats-to-disrupt-work-on-train-station/6911394


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## drsmith (17 November 2015)

Bill Shorten in weekend car accident,



> He spilt a short black on his lap and wrote off his car.




Too hot for the privates I'd suggest.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/shorten-sideswipes-parked-cars/6947290


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## MrBurns (17 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten in weekend car accident,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If he's in the habit of doing that it would explain the way he dances.


----------



## Logique (17 November 2015)

Almost terminal you'd think - or am I going out too soon. See if the honeymoon period wears off.



> *Bill Shorten plumbs the dreaded 29 per cent* - November 17, 2015
> SMH Editorial:  http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-e...-the-dreaded-29-per-cent-20151115-gkzr2l.html
> 
> When Julia Gillard's Labor government plumbed the 29 per cent primary support level in June 2013, her colleagues revolted, tossed her out and reinstalled Kevin Rudd.
> ...


----------



## poverty (17 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten in weekend car accident,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



\\

Nice driving Shorten, ya ********!!


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## IFocus (17 November 2015)

Logique said:


> Almost terminal you'd think - or am I going out too soon. See if the honeymoon period wears off.




I think Shorten will see the next election

After a trashing he will be dumped and Labor can then move on from the Rudd Gillard period.


----------



## Tisme (18 November 2015)

IFocus said:


> I think Shorten will see the next election
> 
> After a trashing he will be dumped and Labor can then move on from the Rudd Gillard period.




He shows all the hallmarks of a teflon man IMO.


----------



## PZ99 (18 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten in weekend car accident,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There's a hidden message in that it looks like he drifted too far to the right


----------



## SirRumpole (18 November 2015)

PZ99 said:


> There's a hidden message in that it looks like he drifted too far to the right




Poor old Bill, nothing is going for him is it ?


----------



## wayneL (18 November 2015)

IFocus said:


> I think Shorten will see the next election
> 
> After a trashing he will be dumped and Labor can then move on from the Rudd Gillard period.




Out of the frying pan, into the fire. You'll have another misandrist sans the novelty value.


----------



## noco (8 December 2015)

Poor old barnacle Bill...He does seem to be getting the message...will someone tell him  only14% of the voters like him...If he does not go soon he might be given a gentle shove.

ww.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/newspoll/newspoll-bill-shorten-says-he-wont-quit-after-recordlow-14-per-cent

*Bill Shorten has dismissed suggestions he should resign over his record-low 14 per cent approval rating, leading journalists in Sydney through a lengthy analysis of today’s shock Newspoll published in The Australian.

The Opposition Leader, asked if he would consider standing down, suggested the media were not interpreting the poll “correctly”.
*


----------



## Macquack (8 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Out of the frying pan, into the fire. You'll have another *misandrist* *sans* the novelty value.




You are such a clever dick Wayne.

I wonder how clever you would be without that "thesaurus" planted up your ****.


----------



## noco (8 December 2015)

Macquack said:


> You are such a clever dick Wayne.
> 
> I wonder how clever you would be without that "thesaurus" planted up your ****.





Merry Xmas Macquack....when you go to church on Xmas day please say a prayer for Bill...he is going to need some divine intervention to save him.


----------



## noco (9 December 2015)

Janet Albrechtsen sums up Bill Shorten to a tee.

I mean does Shorten and his corrupt unions think they are above the law?

Shorten is so full of big talk and empty rhetoric that nobody can deny...Even the rusted on Labor supporters must thinking, what in the hell is going on with mob. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/1482d9b89f4822325178cb49ad77f819

*Which genius was responsible for this latest Big Idea? Shorten’s latest offering proves he’s full of small ideas that are about tricky politics, not sound policy. If ever there was a time for a Labor leader — let alone a former union leader with a 14 per cent approval rating — to try to rebuild his credibility and distance the party from union wrongdoing, it’s now. Instead, Shorten’s latest proposal reeks of a leader who has been dragged kicking and screaming to even this latest craven political ploy of linking better union governance to increased scrutiny of political donations. Does that mean Shorten won’t agree to the former without the latter? If so, he’s indulging in ill-advised games.

Last month former ACTU secretary Bill Kelty told unions to get their house in order with stronger governance standards and greater accountability. He said the test was for unions to act here before the government did.

The unions have failed this test. ACTU boss Dave Oliver has said unions have to ask some tough questions. Except Oliver wasn’t interested in any tough questions about lifting union governance standards. Oliver was concerned about falling union membership and how “the trade union royal commission has achieved much of its intended purpose of damaging our brand”. Shorten’s latest salvo proves the ALP doesn’t take the issue of improving union governance seriously either.

As the evidence has mounted, of poor governance, secret side deals, intimidation, bullying, bogus memberships, the destruction of documents requested by the commission and more, Labor’s robotic claims about political witch-hunts lost their bite.*


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2015)

Macquack said:


> You are such a clever dick Wayne.
> 
> I wonder how clever you would be without that "thesaurus" planted up your ****.




a thesaurus in that place would result in thesorearse.

Misandrist was a word I learned back in the late sixties to counteract my anti establishment, rail against the machine sister naming and shaming me as a misogynist. For some reason my name calling didn't go over too well with the rest of women in the family either .... which is probably a good thing because it keeps them in their place. 

You must admit though that if we end up with she who Wayne refers to, it is going to be hard navigating the punitive mine field of the consequent rules of engagement between us few remaining hetro males and whats left after that. The woman is paradox of the true Labor Party doctrine which was supposed to be the elimination of anti-social behaviours in the workplace, yet she only has eyes for the anti social elements of society that give me the irrates.


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## noco (9 December 2015)

According to Peter Van Onselen, Shortens fate is sealed so why is the Labor Party still clinging to him?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/6acbd770f16244118ff0ca1cd577386c

*The message from voters is clear: Turnbull’s honeymoon is coming to an end, but he remains popular and the alternative PM *remains unelectable.

If Labor MPs aren’t worried about Shorten’s performance, they should be. Despite the Mal Brough saga debilitating the government in its final parliamentary sitting week, and despite the defection of Ian Macfarlane to the Nat*ionals, the Coalition maintained its two-party lead of 53 to 47 per cent.

If Labor was in government, Shorten would have been deposed long ago. His colleagues would have put survival ahead of any sense of loyalty.

In opposition, and defending a poor result in 2013, Labor MPs can be confident of retaining their seats, even if attaining enough *additional seats to form government looks a bridge too far.

Sticking with Shorten is therefore made easier, with plans afoot to oust him immediately after the election for a more popular *alternative.

His preferred PM rating is just 14 per cent, well below Labor’s primary vote of 33 per cent, itself a woeful result. The message is that even Labor voters don’t prefer Shorten as prime minister.

Without significant polling *improvements early next year, Shorten will remain a dead man walking.

He just isn’t inspiring voters to consider a change of government.*


----------



## Knobby22 (9 December 2015)

If the far right loony wing keep attacking Turnbull, he may have a chance.


----------



## PZ99 (9 December 2015)

noco said:


> According to Peter Van Onselen, Shortens fate is sealed so why is the Labor Party still clinging to him?



Easy. Because he can't knife anyone in the party (again) while he remains the leader 

So his removal will be facilitated by the democratic process next year. Just as the article states.


----------



## drsmith (10 December 2015)

Poor Bill has had another driving incident and he's not happy about it being noticed,



> "It appears the witness was driving while he used his phone to film Shorten", the Opposition Leader's office said in a brief statement.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ht-texting-while-driving-20151210-glku9t.html

EDIT:

it turns out to be old news,

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...ng-caught-on-camera-using-phone-while-driving


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2015)

drsmith said:


> Poor Bill has had another driving incident and he's not happy about it being noticed,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Like reformed smokers, born again christians, etc  these types can't help but transfer the indignation once reserved for them onto some other unsuspecting sod. Social Media is akin a room where you leave your brains at the door and let your tongue blather on about inane things. What kind of idiot shoots a video of another person texting, while he/she is also driving; at least with texting you look forward sporadically, sideways action demands much more skill.

I got pinged for using a mobile in my car when all I did was move it from seat to console. My car has voice activation, but nonetheless the copper was more interested in making his gopro moment an oscar moment and I just went ...meh.


----------



## noco (11 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> Like reformed smokers, born again Christians, etc  these types can't help but transfer the indignation once reserved for them onto some other unsuspecting sod. Social Media is akin a room where you leave your brains at the door and let your tongue blather on about inane things. What kind of idiot shoots a video of another person texting, while he/she is also driving; at least with texting you look forward sporadically, sideways action demands much more skill.
> 
> I got pinged for using a mobile in my car when all I did was move it from seat to console. My car has voice activation, but nonetheless the copper was more interested in making his go pro moment an oscar moment and I just went ...meh.




I think Shorten has his brains located between his legs from his past history.

Perhaps he should start riding a bicycle because he is so dangerous on the road driving a car but then he would be apt to run down some poor Mum wheeling her pram.

And this bloke wants to be the next Prime Minister. 


https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/30334021/shorten-caught-using-phone-while-driving/


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2015)

Only an idiot texts while driving a car.
Shorten is unfit for public office and unfit to have a driving license.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2015)

noco said:


> I think Shorten has his brains located between his legs from his past history.
> 
> Perhaps he should start riding a bicycle because he is so dangerous on the road driving a car but then he would be apt to run down some poor Mum wheeling her pram.
> 
> ...




So you are saying the likes of Chris Pyne and more likely some of your family and friends are also afflicted with brains in groin?

The Liberal high horse some of you guys sit on must be so lofty you can't reach the mounting block to descend into the general population of human failings. I have a neighbour like that, he's a great friend, but he frets about being seen to be fallible .... awful to watch a man aged beyond his years behaving like a great aunt in Victorian play.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/gossip


----------



## dutchie (11 December 2015)

PZ99 said:


> Easy. Because he can't knife anyone in the party (again) while he remains the leader




Actually he can. He can stab himself in the back. With his political astuteness he might think that its a good idea.


----------



## noco (11 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> So you are saying the likes of Chris Pyne and more likely some of your family and friends are also afflicted with brains in groin?
> 
> The Liberal high horse some of you guys sit on must be so lofty you can't reach the mounting block to descend into the general population of human failings. I have a neighbour like that, he's a great friend, but he frets about being seen to be fallible .... awful to watch a man aged beyond his years behaving like a great aunt in Victorian play.
> 
> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/gossip




Lighten up a bit Tisme.....It was just a bit of apophthegm.

On a serious note, Bill might have been texting  google in an endeavor to find out  some big new ideas before the year ended..

Can you just imagine if Abbott or Turnbull had been caught doing what barnacle Bill did......My gawd, Shorten, Plebazeck, Penny Wong and the leftist biased ABC would have flogged it for days.

Mark Dreyfus would have been asking for a senate inquiry and demanding their resignation..

LOL


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2015)

noco said:


> Lighten up a bit Tisme.....It was just a bit of apophthegm.




I'm always lite Noco,  you guys know how to produce entertaining posts by and large, but you disappoint when you go into gleeful girly biatch mode..... it's so social mediaesque



noco said:


> On a serious note, Bill might have been texting  google in an endeavor to find out  some big new ideas before the year ended..
> 
> Can you just imagine if Abbott or Turnbull had been caught doing what barnacle Bill did......My gawd, Shorten, Plebazeck, Penny Wong and the leftist biased ABC would have flogged it for days.
> 
> ...




True, but one Penny Wong doesn't make a wright. 

I wouldn't mind them having a swipe at each other, but these days they mean the vitriol they spray. This is why I think it would be good if they put the old team of Keating, Hewson, Downer and No Ticker back together..... larrikan debates about serious reforms that everyone, except Joh, was onboard with.


----------



## noco (11 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm always lite Noco,  you guys know how to produce entertaining posts by and large, but you disappoint when you go into gleeful girly biatch mode..... it's so social mediaesque
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The problem was the immediate media attention was not available in the Keating era as it is today.

MP's who step out of line now a days are ready meat for criticism  to the public on the same day. ..This is the 21st century.

Penny Wong should change her name to Penny Wrong because she got so much wrong when she was the Finance Minister under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd. ..She was only out by $123 billion....peanuts.


----------



## drsmith (15 December 2015)

More on Bill Shorten's coffee spill car crash from November,



> The crash occurred just metres from the Lygon Street milk bar where Mr Shorten clashed with shop keeper Annie Huang over a “soft’’ meat pie, after he mistakenly believed she had criticised Julia Gillard.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...h/news-story/aa81b3f1f539917163b06890f589419d


----------



## noco (26 December 2015)

Coffee spill, prang, texting while driving?????????????......The next big event looks like being a train wreck while he is doing something else he should not be doing.

Peter Van-onselen sums up Barnacle Bill's future....How he has survived this far is remarkable.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...f-the-dysfunctional-years-shackle-shorten/new

*As 2016 approaches, Bill Shorten’s achilles heel becomes more and more apparent: he is the last surviving frontline player from a depressing and dysfunctional period in Australian politics.

If you had to name the big four whose roles were at centrestage during Labor’s six years in office, the two prime ministers and the man who would become PM are the standouts: Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott.

Coming in at No 4 is Shorten — only a junior frontbencher during Rudd’s first stint as PM but the key figure who marshalled support away from the popular first-term prime minister in a late-night coup that changed the way modern leaders need to think about their political mortality.

Again in 2013, long after Gillard’s popularity had collapsed, it was Shorten’s switch back to Rudd that delivered the ousted PM the numbers he needed to win back the poisoned chalice of the Labor leadership before leading the party to a bitter defeat a few months later.

While Abbott’s personal unpopularity was on show during the Rudd-Gillard years, courtesy of the job he did on his Labor opponents (negative politicking doesn’t endear opposition leaders to the voting public but it can be effective), it took time for Shorten’s unpopularity to manifest itself.

But we can trace the origins of his broken bond with the people to the role he played in bringing down Rudd and Gillard. An early indication of that unpopularity was on display in the Labor leadership showdown soon after the 2013 defeat. The new system of letting members have their say saw 60 per cent of members cast a ballot for Anthony Albanese, who was seen to have played a much straighter bat than Shorten during the years of Labor division.

Shorten succeeded in winning the Labor leadership only for the same reason he was successful at tearing down previous Labor prime ministers — his control of the numbers in the partyroom. The votes from the members was an early sign of how the wider public would come to see Shorten.*


----------



## noco (31 December 2015)

It would appear Bill Shorten is not out of the woods yet......He may face more grilling next year.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/991084f793ad473dda8ef1879d10ceda

B*ill Shorten will face the political blowtorch for his former leadership of the scandal-plagued *Australian Workers Union after Malcolm Turnbull vowed to use the damning findings of the *Heydon royal commission to make union corruption a frontline election issue.

The Prime Minister declared “Mr Shorten has got to answer for this” hours after tabling Dyson Heydon’s scathing final report on the two-year inquiry, which *detailed “widespread” and “deep-seated” corruption by “louts, thugs, bullies, thieves, perjurers, those who threaten violence, errant fiduciaries and organisers of boycotts” in the union movement.

As unions rejected the inquiry as a “fix”, the Coalition unveiled plans to bring revamped laws to parliament built on Mr Heydon’s recommendation for an all-powerful regulator able to shut down registered organisations.

Mr Turnbull also vowed to *reintroduce a bill to restore the Australian Building and Construction Commission watchdog in the first week of parliament next year — a move that could create an early election trigger after draft laws stalled in the Senate.

    More: Turnbull must adopt Abbott’s zeal
    More: Thugs, bullies and thieves exposed
    More: Strife over ‘corrupt’ payments

Crossbenchers David Leyonhjelm and Nick Xenophon *yesterday raised the prospect of the Prime Minister using the legislation as a trigger for a double-*dissolution election.

Mr Turnbull said the report’s release was “a real watershed *moment for the Labor movement, for its leaders, for Mr Shorten”.

“We are willing to fight an election on this ... if we cannot get the passage of this legislation through the Senate, then in one form or *another it will be a major issue at the next election,” he said.*


----------



## explod (1 January 2016)

Yes,  there is no doubt this will be a test of his leadership potential. 

If he can rise to the occasion and assist with cleaning those entrenched left crooks properly he can then move as Prime Minister in due course to very much more important matters:-

"A royal commission into fraud and corruption in the banking and financial services sector; the underpayment of staff by large companies and small buisinesses; the links between developers and elected officials; price gouging by oil companies; and tax avoidance schemes by multinational companies. " J J Portal,  letter in the Age today,  p. 14

The louts,  thugs,  bullies,  thieves and perjurers in the corporate sector are making people on the ground losing jobs and reasonable income streams very angry.


----------



## noco (1 January 2016)

explod said:


> Yes,  there is no doubt this will be a test of his leadership potential.
> 
> If he can rise to the occasion and assist with cleaning those entrenched left crooks properly he can then move as Prime Minister in due course to very much more important matters:-
> 
> ...




Firstly, Bill Shorten has no hope of becoming Prime Minister as he is deeply associated with the left crooks and the voters are fully aware as indicated in the his 14% approval rating....He says he stood by workers to get the best deal and yet he ripped workers off of their entitlements in the Clean Event and Chiquita affairs just to gain some hoot for the unions and himself......He is two faced and those workers will never forgive him.

Secondly, if you an advocate for news from the AGE (that left wing paper) you may be behind in some of the latest news whereby action is being taken to close the loop holes of corporate tax avoidance. Some action has already been taken on the high interest charges on credit cards but if people want to spend, charge everything on their credit cards and then find they cannot pay, then they should manage their financial affairs with more care and spend less according to their income.....They living are beyond their means just as the Labor Party does when in power whether it be State of Federal......  Pay your credit card on time and avoid the high interest rates....The high interest rates are two fold......a) as a deterrent for slow payers and b) the banks have to cover themselves for the loss they often incur when when people go bankrupt.......If the Labor Party had not sold off the Commonwealth bank, the government of the day could have made banking more competitive...There would have been far more control of the banking and financial institutes....So please stop complaining about banking.

Where is your proof that small business are underpaying staff?.....In many cases some workers take on jobs like fruit picking and are paid according to their to their efforts.....Some will make good money if they work hard and others will earn less if they linger behind a reasonable quota.....If workers are being paid an hourly rate I think you will find those rates are regulated...If they find they are being under paid then it is up to them to make a case the watch dog for their correct entitlements.

You mentioned price gouging by oil companies!!!....What did Labor do about it and other things you mentioned when they were in power?....Absolutely nothing.....they had fuel watch and food watch which cost taxpayers money and was a complete failure.
You talk about lugs, bullies and thieves in the corporate sector which I think are getting confused with the CFMEU when using that terminology.....I don't know if you have ever been in business and employed workers in your lifetime but you do not seem to understand in the business world if demand is down in business one has to cut  costs accordingly or go out of business, resulting in the requirement of less staff.....I can tell you from one who knows....Perhaps you believe a business should run at a loss just to keep on staff.....But of course you would only be joking I guess.


----------



## noco (6 February 2016)

Is Bill Shorten PM material??????.....Not according to many in the LUG party as reported by  Grace Collier.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nted-by-awus-dirty-cleanevent-deal/news-story

Bill Shorten haunted by AWU’s dirty Cleanevent deal

    The Australian
    February 6, 2016 12:00AM
    Save
    Print
    Grace Collier
    Columnist
    Melbourne

Some federal senators, of the mostly unemployable variety, are having a great time leading the government around by the nose over access to a report that they would not bother to read and would be even less likely to comprehend. Just because they can, these people are going to vote against the reinstatement of the Australian Building and Construction Commission. The Prime Minister should go to an election as soon as it suits. Many Labor types will be grateful for this, too. A new political cycle will bring an end to the suffering and facilitate natural elimination of their toxic leader.

In the old days, when I was in the labour movement, we had a saying to describe people who had what it took to ruthlessly clamber over the collective, stand on our shoulders, and springboard off us to rise to the top. With a mix of wonder and disgust, we would say about the person concerned, “he would eat his own young”.

Among Labor people, it is said that the leader, Bill Shorten, would do the deals no one else would to get where he wants to go. You have to wonder though, when the man was a union official, how did he sleep at night, how did he front up to his job every day and how did he ever look working people in the eye?

*It became blindingly apparent last year, when the royal commission into trade union governance examined dodgy deals from his past, that long ago, when he worked at the Australian Workers Union, Shorten ethically bankrupted himself. By his own actions, Shorten threw away his moral right to advocate on behalf of working people. Today, by association, everyone in Labor sits down there with him, with the silent ghosts of gypped workers looking on in dismay.

In November 2014, Shorten told the National Press Club “Labor will be defined in 2015 by the power of our ideas”. For the whole year, the true believers waited. Every time Shorten appeared before the camera, looking like something the cat dragged in, you could almost hear the sound of a whoopee cushion slowly deflating. He stumbled over his words, made jokes that fell flat, let off lame “zingers” and occasionally lapsed into the negative, carping sarcasm of the disaffected union rep. These performances were only eclipsed by his soliloquies of deluded self-justification in the royal commission witness box.

This week, Shorten put out a policy called “Protecting rights at work”. It promptly sank without trace. This is because it was so laughably fatuous, so breathtakingly hypocritical, and so embarrassingly dishonest, that the kindest thing that anyone in the media could do was ignore it, and turn their face away. Here is the only way the situation can be summarised: Labor has released a policy to punish employers that rip workers off, yet the person leading Labor ran a union that made agreements with employers that let them rip workers off. The policy begins: “A Shorten Labor government will put in place a suite of reforms to protect rights at work by cracking down on unscrupulous employers who are willing to exploit workers.” Labor wants big fines for these people and is “also seeking views about whether a new criminal offence is warranted where an employer intentionally or recklessly seriously rips off workers.” Where this occurs, the penalty “could be in the order of $43,200 (240 penalty units) or two years imprisonment for an individual.”

What a great idea, let’s jail the owners of, say, Cleanevent. They secured enterprise agreements from the AWU that allowed the award to be undercut by $10 an hour per person, which is estimated to have cost 5000 workers more than $400 million in lost wages. Shorten’s defence of his role in the 2004 Cleanevent agreement, taken from the royal commission transcript, was that the employees would have been ripped off anyway. The award wage was only a “gold standard”, “fanciful in the real world” and something hardly any employers abided by.

Union officials have right of entry powers enshrined in law. This is so they can enter premises and inspect documents for the purpose of prosecuting wage underpayments. They are supposed to pursue employers who underpay workers, not fall over themselves to help them.

Anyhow, make no mistake, the ABCC is needed. It will work to prevent the thuggery and corruption endemic in Australia’s construction sector by enforcing an anti-corruption code of conduct, referred to as “the code”. No one, especially the daft senators, who are obsessed with tackling corporate corruption, seems to realise this, but the code does not apply to unions at all. The code applies only to companies. It is companies who are in the frame, probably more so than unions.
*
When union thugs visit subcontractors to demand bribes and union EBAs in exchange for working on big projects, it is because a company executive running that project has given the union a list of which businesses they should visit. We are now the most expensive construction destination on the planet because the parties have been controlling markets and bumping up construction prices. Our largest builders and their unions have long colluded to rip us all off. The ABCC will target and prosecute the big builders who set this chain of undesirable events in motion.


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## Logique (6 February 2016)

Both Albo and Tanya face stiff Greens opposition in their city seats.  

Even if this weren't so, looking at the opinion polls for 'Malware', they'd probably both sit tight until post-election.


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## noco (18 February 2016)

Poor old Bill has headed west to salvage what is left in WA.....Bill has arranged a dinner for 4 with just one place setting.
Perhaps he should keep going west into the Indian Ocean or Christmas Island. 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t/news-story/dd96044519dd73f2ac7e00fcd2944e5e

*Bill Shorten has insisted he will lead Labor to victory at the federal election despite an extraordinary declaration by one of his most senior frontbenchers, retiring West Australian MP Gary Gray, that the party is headed for defeat.

The Labor leader flew into Perth yesterday amid mounting chaos in the party’s West Australian branch after Mr Gray, a former resources minister, revealed he would not recontest his seat of Brand at this year’s election.

Mr Gray’s shock announcement came after Labor’s only other two West Australian lower-house MPs, Alannah MacTiernan and Melissa Parke, revealed in recent weeks they would not recontest their seats of Perth and Fremantle.

Labor sources said Mr Gray and Ms MacTiernan, a former state Labor minister, had grown dissatisfied with elements of Mr Shorten’s leadership and their lack of influence over policy. Mr Shorten denied there was a lack of confidence among Labor MPs in his leadership as the party prepares to face an election as early as the middle of the year.

The spate of departures means Labor will not have a single incumb*ent lower-house MP contesting the election in Western Australia — a situation believed to be unprecedented — at a time when the party is polling well at a state level against an unpopular Liberal government.

It has also created headaches for Labor officials and power*brokers, who are scrambling to find candidates for the three seats.*

The rats are leaving the sinking ship.


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## dutchie (18 February 2016)

noco said:


> It has also created headaches for Labor officials and power*brokers, who are scrambling to find candidates for the three seats.




Surely there's a lawyer or union official or two in WA


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## noco (2 May 2016)

If Shorten were to become PM on Juily2 he will lead the country like a true blood unionist...POW!!!!:badass::2evil:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t/news-story/0093024ff6f43831e375669ad217f385

*In a pre-election manifesto penned by the Opposition Leader and released today, Mr Shorten says he is proud of his background as an AWU organiser, despite *Coalition attempts to “smear” his past through the royal commission into trade unions.

Arguing that his tenure at the union, including six years as national secretary, taught him to solve problems and balance competing interests, Mr Shorten says he will draw on this experience if he becomes prime minister in July.

“As Labor leader, I still think like an organiser. Whether it’s dealing with the rising influence of vested interests or solving a community-level problem, empowering people is the key,” he writes in For the Common Good, published by Melbourne University Press.

The comments are a must read.*

Just the first few comments.

Logical
1 hour ago

*The CleanEvent cleaners and others left in the same boat by Bill's sweetheart deals, must be very pleased to hear this (not).  But it seemed to me Bill's been doing just this since he was elected as an MP with the usual union assistance.
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Robert
Robert
1 hour ago

Will BS introduce the hard hat as preferred head ware for his labor pollies.  I see from a recent addition to their ranks that flamboyant hats are now permissible attire in the hallowed halls of revered political rumpus rooms!
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stephen
stephen
1 hour ago

Greece, here we come !!
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Michelle
Michelle
1 hour ago

BS has learned nothing from TURC either, "thick as a brick" is an understatement.  
FlagShare
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Sunil
Sunil
1 hour ago

Yes for a start he has good company! Kim Carr, Doug Cameron, Mark Dreyfus, Tanya Plibersek, Michell Rowlandd - all angry class warriers! Of course after all the Unions are for squeezing as much as possible from other people's money! Go for it Bill and teach these 'dirty capitalists' a good lesson! Oh I almost forgot you have great counter part in UK too! Perfect!*


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## Ferret (5 May 2016)

I wrote Shorten off 2 years ago, but he is proving a formidable opponent.  His performance in the budget reply was quite polished.

I still don't trust Labor's ability to manage the country's finances, so I doubt they'll get my vote, but Shorten's plans for changes to negative gearing look sensible.  Turnbull has really allowed himself to be wedged on this.  

I think the Libs have delivered a good budget, but the selling of it hasn't started too well.  Turnbull is in for a battle in this election and needs to lift his game.


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## sptrawler (5 May 2016)

Ferret said:


> I wrote Shorten off 2 years ago, but he is proving a formidable opponent.  His performance in the budget reply was quite polished.
> 
> I still don't trust Labor's ability to manage the country's finances, so I doubt they'll get my vote, but Shorten's plans for changes to negative gearing look sensible.  Turnbull has really allowed himself to be wedged on this.
> 
> I think the Libs have delivered a good budget, but the selling of it hasn't started too well.  Turnbull is in for a battle in this election and needs to lift his game.




Well there was a reason Turnbull was dumped before, there is no mongrel in him, soft as $hit.

Bill is talking it up, as a good organiser does, but there is little substance to it.

Wait till the dust settles, and the media start asking sensible questions, rather than fawning over the Labor Party.

It wasn't as though Labor, had any trouble increasing and inventing taxes, when they were in office.
The problem was their brain fart ideas to spend more than they raised.

Finding more people to tax isn't a problem for Labor, throwing away money is their downfall.


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## luutzu (6 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well there was a reason Turnbull was dumped before, there is no mongrel in him, soft as $hit.
> 
> Bill is talking it up, as a good organiser does, but there is little substance to it.
> 
> ...




I thought Labor's downfall was trying to take on BHP and Rio.


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## dutchie (6 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Wait till the dust settles, and the media start asking sensible questions, rather than fawning over the Labor Party.:




That's not going to happen.




The Oz media is pathetic, especially the Labor biased ABC.


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## noco (6 May 2016)

Shortens budget reply speech was full of the usual rhetoric, propaganda, lies and more lies.

The naive will swallow his great big plan but none of them will not think to ask BS how he will pay for it all?

The naive and the rusted on Labor supporters  have very short memories.

An extra $100 billion tax burden on the public.

More big hits on business who are the engine room of employment.

If Labor do get up on the July 2 we will see higher debt and deficit, more borrowings higher unemployment, higher taxes, higher spending and more union control to push business off shore just like they have done in the past and they wonder why we have stop making cars, clothing  and shoes.

They say his renewable energy target of 50% by 2030 will bump the cost of electricity by 78%.

The French have no idea what they will be in for when they start building the subs in SA....The unions will reign supreme......The unions will make sure that $50 billion figure will double.


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## Tisme (6 May 2016)

With LNP internal polling showing the ALP to win, the prospect of Bill being PM is real. 

I'll post this just to remind people how Cats and Dogs can get on if maturity prevails:

I wonder if Keating has divided loyaties?



> And that's where Keating comes into the story.
> 
> I was told some months after these events that among those who'd counselled Turnbull not to be such a mug as to resign from Parliament were Keating and his NSW Labor colleague, Neville Wran, Turnbull's hugely money-making business partner for many years.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/comment/keati...orten-is-paying-the-bill-20150924-gjujs2.html


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## SirRumpole (6 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> With LNP internal polling showing the ALP to win, the prospect of Bill being PM is real.
> 
> I'll post this just to remind people how Cats and Dogs can get on if maturity prevails:
> 
> ...




Politics makes strange bedfellows.

_Charles Dudley Warner_


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## noco (31 May 2016)

Poor old Barnacle Bill is coping from both left and right over his anti business philosophy.

IS HE PM MATERIAL????...I don't think so with no business experience and a union hack mentality, how can he be.....He wants to run the country like a corrupt union boss.

...It is all about power with Bill.....It is all about central control.....Bill is far from a true Labor man of yesteryear....I don't know why Shorten does not join forces with the Greens and the Communist Party  and rename the ALP the  Socialist Party as it is more in keeping with their ideology....But who knows, with the Greens nipping at their heels the Labor Party may have no alternative.....They hate each others Gutz but it would be a marriage of convenience as some would say....It will be sort of "I CAN'T LIVE WITH YOU BUT AT THE SAME I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT YOU".



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fed...s/news-story/6027f1944d3f680bba901cc14762a552

*Bill Shorten has lashed out at Labor stalwart Keith DeLacy over his criticism of the opposition’s anti-business agenda, mocking the former state treasurer as a company director who wants a tax cut, as business leaders called for an end to class-war politics.

The Opposition Leader’s criticism of the former long-serving Queensland treasurer came despite at least a dozen Labor luminaries, including former premiers and party leaders, taking up boardroom posts.

Mr Shorten’s unrelenting attack on the Coalition’s proposed business tax cuts — which Mr DeLacy blasted as “the most anti-business policy I’ve ever seen federal Labor put to an election” — is driving a deep wedge between the Opposition and corporate Australia.

As the Opposition Leader yesterday declared he would not be “dictated to by business”, four of the nation’s most respected business leaders called for a higher standard of political debate, questioning Labor’s divisive election tactics.

    More: Deals make unskilled best paid

Former Business Council of Australia president Graham Bradley warned that Labor’s recent policies gave few in business confidence the party had learned its lesson from the mining and carbon tax “debacles”.

Wesfarmers and Woodside chairman Michael Chaney lamented the “scaremongering and divisive approach that’s taken in modern political campaigns” that was pitting “battlers versus well-off, rich versus poor, haves versus have-nots, rather than working to achieve a greater pie for all”.

Tony Shepherd, the chair of the government’s 2014 Commission of Audit, said Mr Shorten’s agenda was fundamentally “anti-business” to a degree that would embarrass former prime ministers Bob Hawke and Paul Keating.

Mr Shepherd, the former president of the Business Council of Australia, also warned future Australians would suffer the effects of “intergenerational unfairness” if spiralling government spending was not reined in.

“I don’t think they’re continuing the Hawke-Keating legacy, and I lived through that legacy and worked with Hawke and Keating through that phase,” Mr Shepherd told Sky News. “I find this very disappointing, this attitude which is anti-business, fundamentally. Unless we get struck by a rainbow and growth takes off, the reality (of growing government spending) will still be there.”

The comments came after Mr Shorten hit back at comments from Mr DeLacy, the Goss government treasurer from 1989 to 1996. “Shock horror, a company director saying he would like to see a company tax cut for his company,” Mr Shorten said, insisting Labor “won’t be dictated to by business who want to see ... a handout from the taxes and from the budget of Australia”.

More than a dozen former Labor MPs have stepped into roles as company directors, including party leaders such as Mr Keating, Bob Carr, Steve Bracks and John Brumby.

Former federal ministers who have won places on corporate boards include Martin Ferguson, John Dawkins, Lindsay Tanner, Nicola Roxon, and Nick Sherry.

Former Commonwealth Bank chief executive and ex-Future Fund chairman David Murray also entered the fray. He said he was “puzzled” that Labor was calling for a banking royal commission when “no major issues were raised by the government or Opposition” on the findings of his landmark 2014 financial system inquiry.

Mr Hawke stepped in yesterday to try to neutralise the growing storm. “I know from my conversations with Bill that he is keenly aware of the need for Labor, in government, to co-operate with both business and the trade unions to optimise conditions for creating growth,” Mr Hawke told The Australian.

Finance Minister Mathias Cormann seized on Mr DeLacy’s comments, saying Labor was “running on a unity ticket with the Greens pursuing an anti-business, anti-success, anti-investment, anti-jobs, anti-growth agenda”.*

Some readers comments.

*Paul
1 minute ago

Another day another Billion dollar Bill promise.
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david
david
6 minutes ago

Shorten is trying to use class hatred as bait

The tax cuts are for small and large business combined which is the engine room of the economy providing jobs and growth

yet shortens propaganda is " cuts for the big end of town" which is simply a mindless throwback to Marxist class hatred

The tax cuts provide jobs and stimulate investment

Shorten is trying to use class hatred to muddy the waters instead of evidence based policy that the government is using*


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## Tisme (31 May 2016)

noco said:


> Poor old Barnacle Bill is coping from both left and right over his anti business philosophy.
> 
> IS HE PM MATERIAL????...I don't think so with no business experience and a union hack mentality, how can he be.....He wants to run the country like a corrupt union boss.
> 
> ...




Newscorp amping up the attack now that it's possible Labor will take a fair few Lib seats.

What the papers aren't talking about is the fact that Labor are basically performing a Lazarus, which points to a failure of the Libs not to consolidate their grip of fear in the electorate, a fear that evaporated once the Abbott Govt decided debt wasn't a bad thing under their stewardship, but none others. 

Now Bronnie and Peta are in  Newscorp's circle of trust it will be interesting how far they will punish Malcolm before singing the loyalty song, or if they will help kill him off so that Tony can take back his sceptre after the election.


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## noco (1 June 2016)

FAIRNESS......FAIRNESS....FAIRNESS......That is Shortens cry  as an ex union hack.

I will always look after the workers best interests...I will always make sure workers get a fair deal.....But Shorten and his corrupt unions are duding workers time and time again.....I mean how hypocritical can they be when they are being caught out over and over again......Shorten's juvenile brain does not think out of the square...He must honestly think people are more stupid than he is himself.

The union deal with Coles workers is the latest scandal duding the workers again preceded by McDonalds, Chiquita and Clean Event.

Is it fair Bill or was it something in it for you and your corrupt unions again? 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...f/news-story/8e4ba7e3f412a2ba1ccc71d4ee91baa3

*It wasn’t really a surprise the Fair Work Commission had to withdraw support for the Coles enterprise agreement. It never passed the better-off-*overall test in the first place, a test in the legislation to ensure workers are not disadvantaged by taking an agreement.

But the approach of the FWC has always been that if an agreement is signed by a union, it is *simply waved through without any serious analysis. Non-union agreements, by contrast, are subject to exhaustive scrutiny.

The trade union — in this case the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees Association, which claims to be the biggest union in Australia — will tell us the vast majority of workers voted to *accept the deal. Well, that is of the workers who voted; most of the workers dudded by the agreement didn’t bother to vote.

For Coles, the agreement was a dream come true: pay slightly higher base rates and avoid penalty rates on Saturday and a much lower one on Sunday compared with the Retail Industry Award. For a business in which weekend trade is very significant, this is an ideal arrangement.

Add $5 million-odd it receives a year from the SDA for processing union membership dues and what’s not to love?

Woolies has a similar agreement, but the SDA has been careful not to offer an equivalent deal to smaller supermarket players.

For the SDA, the Coles (and Woolies) deal was also a dream come true. Union officials could attend employee induction sessions, the company handed out union application forms and the company deducted union dues from workers’ pay. The SDA should really be called the Coles (and Woolies) Staff Association.

As a bonus, the sole superannuation fund nominated in the agreement is REST, the union-*affiliated industry super fund whose union trustees are dominated by SDA officials. Coles supermarket workers are given no choice about which super*annuation fund to join.

But it’s not only the Coles deal that duds some workers; it is also REST. Unless workers opt out of the attached insurance arrangements, premiums are deducted automatically from the workers’ super accounts, even though there is no payout in the event of death or total disability unless the account contains at least $3000.

Students working weekends have accounts way below this figure. They are paying for nothing, yet the REST trustees allow this arrangement to continue. After a few years of working for Coles, these young people have precious little in their super *accounts after fees, charges and unwanted *insurance. I guess that’s what happens when the union stands up for workers’ rights.

It is the Shorten approach to industrial relations: what’s the problem if some workers are made worse off, think of the bigger picture, think of the benefits for the union. This was the Cleanevent scenario and the Chiquita Mushrooms scenario. It’s how the industrial relations club works. And the FWC is part of the club.*


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## noco (2 June 2016)

How embarrassing this must be for Bill Shorten when he keeps sprouting how he looks after the workers interests for fairness, better wage deals and one who will protect penalty rates on weekends irrespective of what the umpire comes up with....He is only protecting penalty rates applicable to small business while he allows big business to do do more dirty deals for the union money grab....What a grubby lot.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...d/news-story/bc631c8b1eb6ac210d3cabb4a951080b

*A wrecking ball just smashed through the front doors of Australia’s industrial relations club. A momentous legal decision has tipped shame on the industrial relations team at Coles, shame on the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees’ Association, and shame on the Fair Work Commission too.

Congratulations to Duncan Hart. An unlikely hero for some, he has done this country a great favour. After this, everything must change. The dodgy deals must stop. The IR club must be demolished. The same industrial relations rules must apply to all businesses, great or small.

Coles is the new Cleanevent. A legal decision proves it. Its enterprise agreement has been struck out because it rips off its lowest-paid workers. What a shame the recent royal commission into union governance didn’t look into the SDA and the current deals it has with employers such as Coles.

Cleanevent was a cleaning company that many years ago paid the Australian Workers Union $25,000 as part of a deal for an EBA. This EBA allowed the company to underpay its workers by $400 million. The Dyson Heydon royal commission into trade union governance examined the deal in detail.

Subsequently, recommendations were made to stop “corrupting payments” between employers and unions. If those recommendations were legislated now, Coles executives might be facing prosecution, because Coles has admitted it paid the SDA $25,000 a year for “training”.

We all know that penalty rates impose a cost on business operations. What is less understood is how in some sectors only smaller businesses have to pay them, because bigger businesses can do dodgy deals to avoid them.

Provided a business has a large workforce, is prepared to push its workers into union membership, and perhaps even pay the union money, an EBA with below legal pay rates can be secured.

These EBAs should not get registered by the Fair Work Commission, but unfortunately, if an EBA has union sanction, it just gets waved through. With a wink and a nudge, the members of the IR club look after their own.

For the SDA, this decision is devastating. There are other employers that have signed up to its dodgy EBAs. What if these employers dump the union, stop pushing their staff to join, and stop supporting the union financially? The only thing this union has going for it is its partnership with key employers in the corporate sector.

This decision is embarrassing for the Labor Party. How can it campaign on penalty rates when a major backer makes a living by selectively undercutting them? There are a few unions in this country whose core business is to sell cut-price wage deals. How can the party of the workers live with this association?

The FWC, too, needs to review the way it approves agreements. Scrutiny is applied to EBAs with no union involvement, but those with a union seal are simply rubber-stamped. There has always been an assumption that a union has the best interests of workers at heart and can be trusted with their pay cheques. This assumption is no longer true and everyone needs to adjust their thinking accordingly.

*


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## noco (4 June 2016)

Once again we see the hypocrisy coming out of Bill Shortens mouth together with Penny Wong, Chris Bowen and Andrew Leigh whom all have advocated business tax cuts since 2011 to 2015....But now.....Oh No not now they say.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...w/news-story/0c22908e2933118c5267f3d107cf72d7

*If the contradiction by Labor on company tax cuts ended there, we simply could put it down to politics — both sides backflip when they see an advantage in doing so. But the Labor retreat on company tax cuts is more brazen because its finance team has long argued in favour of such cuts, for exactly the same reason Turnbull is now.

None other than Chris Bowen — the man who would be treasurer, henceforth charged with implementing Labor’s economic blueprint if Shorten becomes prime minister — is in favour of company tax cuts. Or he was until very recently.

In his book Hearts and Minds, Bowen wrote: “It’s a Labor thing to have the ambition of reducing company tax, because it promotes investment, creates jobs and drives growth.” The book was spruiked by the publisher as Bowen’s vision for a better
Australia.

Opposition assistant Treasury spokesman Andrew Leigh told me last year on Sky News: “We know the company tax rate is a significant drag on growth, largely because capital is more footloose than labour and so there’s potential for us to miss out on high-quality investment if we have too high a company tax rate.”

Leigh is right. When Paul Keating, followed by Peter Costello, cut company taxes, Australia then had one of the lowest rates in the OECD. Today, we have one of the highest.

Lower company taxes stimulate investment. To take advantage of our geographical location we need to remain competitive, and attractive conditions for business do just that. But don’t take my word for it.

When Labor was last in government its finance minister at the time, Penny Wong, now opposition leader in the Senate and Labor’s campaign spokeswoman, said: “We understand that the cut in the corporate tax rate is important to increase productivity, to promote broad-based economic growth and to encourage more investment and jobs across Australia.” Jobs and growth is the Coalition’s slogan.

Labor now wants to suggest that company tax cuts don’t benefit workers, but the former head of the Department of the Treasury, Ken Henry, who also drafted Kevin Rudd’s tax reform paper, has said: “The consensus of public finance theorists is that in Australia, if the company income tax were to be cut, the principal beneficiaries will be workers.”

If you don’t believe Henry, maybe Leigh can convince you of the link between the company tax rate and the workforce. Before Labor flipped to oppose company tax cuts, Leigh wrote in The Australian Financial Review: “In a recent review of the literature, William Gentry (Williams College) concludes that most of the impact of a corporate income tax rise falls on workers. Increase company taxes by 10 percentage points, and wages fall by 6-10 per cent.”

Leigh wrote that in the countdown to the 2010 election, when Labor was campaigning on cutting company taxes. The slogan as to why doing so was necessary? For jobs and growth. Sound familiar?

Labor now argues that a higher company tax rate won’t leave workers worse off.

This week on Sky News Leigh didn’t back away from his past observations, because apparently the benefits for workers won’t be felt for years.

For some reason that didn’t matter back then but, hey, things change, I suppose. I’d have thought the lag time sounds like a good reason to get on with the cuts. Either way, it’s ironic that Labor is serving up 10-year costings forecasts to mask the imbalance in its books across the trad*itional four-year forward estimates, yet similarly long-term projections about company tax cut effects are too far off to secure Labor’s support.

So Labor’s finance team, once united in favour of company tax cuts, is now united against them.

In an era of presidential-style politicking, its collective backflip could be forgiven if it simply is playing follow the leader. Shorten opposes company tax cuts, other than one rhetorical overreach in his budget reply speech last year, so everyone else in Labor must follow suit.

Wrong. In a speech to the 2011 Australian Council of Social Service national conference Shorten said: “Friends, corporate tax reform helps Australia’s private sector grow and it creates jobs right up and down the income ladder.” Up and down the income ladder.

That was then; now, Shorten seeks to paint company tax cuts as all about helping big business, even though Turnbull’s cuts start with small business.

John Maynard Keynes once said: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” Too often in politics this important caveat is disregarded in the name of consistency. However, the Keynesian defence doesn’t apply to the company tax backflip. Debt was an issue when Labor advocated cuts, and it’s still an issue. The fragility of the economy was evident then, as it is now. The need to stimulate jobs and growth was a priority then, just as it is now, which is why the rhetoric Labor used is so reflective of the rhetoric coming from the government today.

Why does Labor now oppose company tax cuts? For political advantage, nothing more — using the Coalition’s support for such cuts to paint it as only looking after business.*

Isn't about time both sides of politics implemented policy in the Nations best interest?


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## noco (4 June 2016)

Grace Collier sums up Bill Shorten for what he really stands for and it is not good.

I trust there will be plenty of viewers on ASF and the Australian Newspaper will take note before the election.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/e5f89036e0c1efe5de2c674836080caa

I*’ve witnessed this union routine many times over. I’ve been in the audience listening, I’ve been with the union official standing up the front talking, and I’ve been the boss watching out of the office window. Now, as I sit on the couch at home with the election unfolding, I can see the same old union routine.

What we are seeing is an act. Shorten, a union loudmouth, is dragging a carpetbag of petty grievances around in a search for minds in which to instil them.

At every media opportunity he pulls out the grievances, waves them around and hopes for mass absorption. Minds full of grievance produce hearts full of fear and hatred. Collective fear and hatred can be ridden to the Lodge.

So Shorten tells us how terrible our lives are or will be (fear) and how this is directly the fault of other people who have it easy (hatred), and he spins for us a story and hopes we swallow *it.


*So what about his war on business? Union organisers of the Shorten genre divide businesses into good and bad, depending on how willing they are to have “union relationships”. Labor legislates for all businesses, then some unions can give the good businesses a way to break the rules in exchange for cash. Some of the cash goes back to Labor and the circle is complete. So “Labor has excellent relations with business,” Shorten insists.

Let’s turn to the final report of the Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption to see what Shorten is likely to think an excellent relationship with business looks like.

The Australian Workers Union case studies revealed three themes. First, “the payment of large sums by employers made in the context of bargaining … in all cases, they were undisclosed to the members on whose behalf that bargaining was taking place”. Second, “the false inflation of membership numbers”; and third, “falsification of documents, for the most part, invoices”.

These three themes overlapped but together painted “an unattractive picture of a union concerned not with its role as the instrument through which to protect the interests of its members but with self-interest — interest in itself and its officials as a self-perpetuating institution”.

These are the findings about a union run by a man who will run this country as he ran his union. I hope he would treat the citizens of our country better than he treated the m*embers of his union.


----------



## noco (17 June 2016)

FAIRNESS....FAIRNESS...FAIRNESS...SAYS BARNACLE BILL
Now proof he and his AWU had a hand in the dirty deal with Coles.


What a grub this would be Prime Minister has turned out to be.

What a hypocrite.

He is helping big corporate business, who he says is sending tax free profits overseas, and then neglect the small businesses.

It is all about filling the coffers of the unions who then fill the coffers of the Labor Party and the Greens......Yes workers join a union, pay your fess, ripped off and  get nothing in return......Whether your are a Labor voter or a Liberal voter your fees will eventually find its way back to Labor.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...l/news-story/9386dbeb8285e11c78956139a18026b2

*Bill Shorten’s old union signed off on a sweetheart deal with supermarket giant Coles that enshrined illegal underpayments for 30,000 casual workers before it was struck down by the industrial relations umpire.

The Opposition Leader has slammed “mistakes” in the 2014 agreement that needed to be “rectified” in a rebuke to the shopworkers union, which represents most Coles staff, after it emerged casual workers were underpaid as much as $100 million.

The Fair Work Commission struck out the deal last month on the grounds it breached the *“better-off overall test” that *applies under industrial law.

In the wake of the commission’s decision, ordering Coles to repay workers short-changed by the deal, Mr Shorten said Coles and the union “have to rectify the mistakes, full stop”.

But The Australian can reveal Mr Shorten’s powerbase, the Australian Workers Union, helped the Shop Distributive and Allied Workers hash out the Coles *enterprise agreement.

The AWU was also a party to the previous deal, filed with the Fair Work Commission in 2011 and signed by ALP factional boss and union “godfather” Bill Ludwig, then AWU president.

The deals drove thousands of members to the conservative *unions, payments to union-linked funds, and bolstered their influence inside the ALP.*


----------



## dutchie (21 June 2016)

Bills', already limited, credibility is being diminished every time he repeats his hypocritical lie.

I notice his nose is getting bigger and bigger.

As Gillard found out, liars are not PM material.


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2016)

This is going to become insufferable as the election day gets closer isn't it!! 

Everyone's going to don their pedant jumpers and yell out loud for their team and revile the cheating b4st4rds on the other side. And the odd thing is that not one of the opposing fans is going to listen to any protest or abuse that doesn't fit their own predisposition. 


The good news is that I had a call from a friend of many years, who is nauseatingly on the blue team, and he announced he has not donated a cent to the LNP for the first time in memory and is voting Pauline!!! When I announced that I too will be voting for a self inflicted wound in order to attack a political cancer, it was one of those male bonding moments only men can understand.


----------



## dutchie (21 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> This is going to become insufferable as the election day gets closer isn't it!!




_Yes_



Tisme said:


> Everyone's going to don their pedant jumpers and yell out loud for their team and revile the cheating b4st4rds on the other side. And the odd thing is that not one of the opposing fans is going to listen to any protest or abuse that doesn't fit their own predisposition.




_Correct. But I was pretty confident that all the Labor voters would swing over to the Coalition after my last post!_



Tisme said:


> The good news is that I had a call from a friend of many years, who is nauseatingly on the blue team, and he announced he has not donated a cent to the LNP for the first time in memory and is voting Pauline!!! When I announced that I too will be voting for a self inflicted wound in order to attack a political cancer, *it was one of those male bonding moments only men can understand.*




_Love it_


----------



## dutchie (24 June 2016)

I watched Leigh Sales interview Bill Shorten on the ABC last night.

To be honest I’m not a great fan of hers but she tried valiantly (and doggedly), using facts and logic, to expose the moral bankruptcy of this man (and I use that word loosely). 

We previously had Kevin Rudd declare that “Hi I am Kevin Rudd and I’m here to help” and I believe the egotistical wanker really did believe he was.

Then we had Julia Gillard declare “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” and I believe that she did not realise that she was lying at the time, but she really did show her real colours when she ranted (and knew she was lying) that Tony Abbott was a misogynist.

And then there was Bill Shorten. I must admit that I have never liked him.
But his performance last night with Leigh was a disgrace. He really has surpassed Kevin and Julia in misleading the Australian public. How does the man sleep at night?
Shorten really showed his Union background when time after time as Sales probed for some honesty in his replies that he is a downright liar, and he knows it!  He is willing to say anything as long as he thinks it will foster his case.

So the title of this thread is “Is Shorten PM material?”
And the answer is that the man should not be allowed within 1 million miles of the Lodge. He is fraudulent even as a politician.  He has shown that he has no moral integrity as his nose gets longer and longer.

I will be ashamed to call myself an Australian if this man ever becomes PM.


----------



## noco (24 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> I watched Leigh Sales interview Bill Shorten on the ABC last night.
> 
> To be honest I’m not a great fan of hers but she tried valiantly (and doggedly), using facts and logic, to expose the moral bankruptcy of this man (and I use that word loosely).
> 
> ...




dutchie, I don't think you have too much to worry about as his disgraceful lie campaign is starting to fall apart and it is doing his credibility, what ever he ever had, no good at all.....There are a few naive and rusted on Labor supporters who will swallow it, but I would say  those with level heads can see through Shortens tactic......WHAT EVER IT TAKES.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/f1c269f9304e02dea37f3080f31901ba

T*here’s no support for Bill Shorten’s Medi-scare

    The Australian
    12:00AM June 24, 2016
    Save
    Print 

Bill Shorten must be ruing the departure of Labor-friendly AMA leader Brian Owler who seemed ever prepared to show his colours — and not in a shy way. The new AMA leader Michael Gannon presents a more temperate and considered position, exposing Labor’s Medicare privatisation scare for what it is.

Gannon welcomes Labor’s promise to unfreeze Medicare rebates for doctors but what else could the leader of a doctors’ union say? Australians aren’t stupid. They know that the burden for Labor’s largesse falls on the taxpayer, and if you’re a welfare recipient it simply adds to the downward pressure on welfare payments.

Mark Awerbuch, Crafers, SA

I have to wonder if Bill Shorten’s Medicare scare outdoes Malcolm Turnbull’s boat turnbacks scare, and whether there is any reality to either claim. It’s clear that prior to the last national conference, a significant number of Labor MPs voiced strong opposition to turnbacks while no one from the Coalition has ever advocated for privatising Medicare.

Further, in the event of a hung parliament, recent history would point to Labor partnering with the Greens to form government. The risk for the country is that the trade-off would include the adoption of its porous border protection policies.

Kim Keogh, East Fremantle, WA

Will Bill Shorten have the decency to apologise for daring to suggest that Medicare might be privatised under a Coalition government?

Does he have in mind a delegation of the taxation powers of the Commonwealth to a non-government body to raise the money which the government spends under Medicare? Does he then contemplate a private body being given the power to determine the content of the benefits schedule and the relevant Medicare rebate against a doctor’s bill for each service item?

Perhaps Shorten should tell voters that he doesn’t understand what it says about the exercise of commonwealth powers. Is he running scared and trying to frighte*


----------



## Tisme (24 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> I watched Leigh Sales interview Bill Shorten on the ABC last night.
> 
> .




You reached the Ad Nauseam plateau by the sounds of it dutchie

I'll have to have a look, but once we take any lies or truths predicated on lies, there usually isn't much substance leaving most politician's lips imo.

What it has done is put a spotlight on the LNP in the future if it tries to tinker with universal health care and any out sourcing associated with it.


----------



## dutchie (24 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> You reached the Ad Nauseam plateau by the sounds of it dutchie




I sure did Tisme. It made me sick as Shorten kept dodging the questions and lying through his teeth.

Leigh Sales grills Bill Shorten over ‘Mediscare’:* ‘Aren’t voters smart to distrust you?’*


http://www.news.com.au/national/fed...u/news-story/8c6ebe7c91df1df3a2f1a7f3e96ad4e9


----------



## dutchie (24 June 2016)

First we had Juliar and now we have *Billiar*.


----------



## noco (24 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> I sure did Tisme. It made me sick as Shorten kept dodging the questions and lying through his teeth.
> 
> Leigh Sales grills Bill Shorten over ‘Mediscare’:* ‘Aren’t voters smart to distrust you?’*
> 
> ...




What a grub......That interview with Bill Shorten would be enough anyone want to throw up.....The man is a bloody idiot to expect voters to believe his rhetoric of lies.


----------



## noco (27 June 2016)

What Shorten has done with his Medicare scare verges on the edge of being illegal. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/e297bd5488a91ab028f144c11ce7159b
*
Bill Shorten said on ABC TV on Thursday night that Malcolm Turnbull and/or the Liberal Party were “dedicated to privatising Medicare”. The Commonwealth Electoral Act states that a person shall not publish any matter or thing likely to mislead or deceive an elector in relation to the casting of a vote.

Clearly, in making this political statement, Shorten is trying to influence the votes of electors. Turnbull has made it quite clear that Medicare will not be privatised by a future Coalition government, so what evidence does Shorten have for this assertion? Or is he trying to mislead or deceive electors as to how they should cast their votes before an election?*


----------



## MrBurns (27 June 2016)

noco said:


> What Shorten has done with his Medicare scare verges on the edge of being illegal.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/e297bd5488a91ab028f144c11ce7159b
> ...




He's deliberately lying trying to get some mud to stick.
A real idiot, securing his loss.


----------



## noco (27 June 2016)

MrBurns said:


> He's deliberately lying trying to get some mud to stick.
> A real idiot, securing his loss.




Shorten thinks everybody is as stupid as he is and it is all back firing on him and serves him right...He deserves all he gets...He is an absolute political grub.


----------



## explod (27 June 2016)

noco said:


> Shorten thinks everybody is as stupid as he is and it is all back firing on him and serves him right...He deserves all he gets...He is an absolute political grub.




Your over emphasis indicates considerable doubt. 

Shorten is doing very well on ABC tv just now.  Not someone I support but is a long way from a grub in my view.


----------



## noco (28 June 2016)

explod said:


> Your over emphasis indicates considerable doubt.
> 
> Shorten is doing very well on ABC tv just now.  Not someone I support but is a long way from a grub in my view.




Well what would you expect from the Labor run ABC except Leigh Sails who gave Shorten the run of the kitchen over his LIES on MEDICARE..

He is a grub when he talks about fairness for workers and then duds them of millions of dollars as the workers of Chicquita, Clean Event, McDonalds, Coles and Woolworths will tell you...Shorten is an absolute hypocrite which not even you could not deny...He lets McDonalds get away with 25% penalty rates on Saturdays and 50% on Sundays when other food outlets have to pay double the penalty rates paid to workers at McDoanlds.

Shorten has no principles....One thing he is good at is cheating and lying.

Shorten likes dealing with big business because he can extract more money from them over small business...Shorten could not care less about small business


----------



## explod (28 June 2016)

noco said:


> Well what would you expect from the Labor run ABC except Leigh Sails who gave Shorten the run of the kitchen over his LIES on MEDICARE..
> 
> He is a grub when he talks about fairness for workers and then duds them of millions of dollars as the workers of Chicquita, Clean Event, McDonalds, Coles and Woolworths will tell you...Shorten is an absolute hypocrite which not even you could not deny...He lets McDonalds get away with 25% penalty rates on Saturdays and 50% on Sundays when other food outlets have to pay double the penalty rates paid to workers at McDoanlds.
> 
> ...



I do not disagree but in very many other ways we can say similar about the libs.  40%  (48billion) of benifits to business will go oveseas under libs.  (university of technology NSW report)  Not going to help tge corner store much. 

Time to close ranks and join the Greens Noco.  Democratic from the bottom up.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2016)

No doubt that the LNP want to turn Medicare into a user pays health care system, and they will do it progressively if they get back in so that we will have a US style system where you only get what you can afford.

User pays is fine for discretionary spending, but for health care no one should decide who needs care apart from the patients and their doctors.


----------



## CanOz (28 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> *No doubt *that the LNP want to turn Medicare into a user pays health care system, and they will do it progressively if they get back in so that we will have a US style system where you only get what you can afford.
> 
> User pays is fine for discretionary spending, but for health care no one should decide who needs care apart from the patients and their doctors.




Really? No doubt? You sound like Bill...

IF the LNP did that it would be the end of the LNP....elections are always just around the corner in Australia...there's no way that would stick, even with hardcore liberals.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> Really? No doubt? You sound like Bill...
> 
> IF the LNP did that it would be the end of the LNP....elections are always just around the corner in Australia...there's no way that would stick, even with hardcore liberals.




So what is a $7 co-payment ? What is the end of bulk billing for pathology tests ?

You might be right, that could be the end of them.


----------



## noco (28 June 2016)

explod said:


> I do not disagree but in very many other ways we can say similar about the libs.  40%  (48billion) of benifits to business will go oveseas under libs.  (university of technology NSW report)  Not going to help tge corner store much.
> 
> Time to close ranks and join the Greens Noco.  Democratic from the bottom up.




I think you are behind the times regarding tax free benefits going overseas...Joe Hockey has implemented ways through a G20 meeting to close that loop hole with international co-operation.

Join the Greens you say.....LMAO.....never in a million years plod.......The Greens are all Fabians (communists) and only believe in socialism which has been proven a failure....The Greens are "WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING" using the environment as a shadow for their hidden agenda.......If you prefer to live under a communist banner then move to a communist dominated country like North Korea, China or Cuba....There is no place for communism here in Australia.

Furthermore the Greens are in the decline and are going down down down.


----------



## Tisme (28 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt that the LNP want to turn Medicare into a user pays health care system, and they will do it progressively if they get back in so that we will have a US style system where you only get what you can afford.
> 
> User pays is fine for discretionary spending, but for health care no one should decide who needs care apart from the patients and their doctors.




Both the Liberal and LNP constitution has a very large section devoted to medical services. It reads:



> in which adequate medical services are within the reach of all;


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2016)

Ah yes, Constitutions.

Unlike the US I doubt if the LNP Constitution is legally enforceable or even read by MP's.

Might make an interesting question on Q&A.

"Mr Pyne, could you quote Section 50, Paragraph 3 of the Liberal Constitution ?"


----------



## explod (28 June 2016)

noco said:


> I think you are behind the times regarding tax free benefits going overseas...Joe Hockey has implemented ways through a G20 meeting to close that loop hole with international co-operation.
> 
> Join the Greens you say.....LMAO.....never in a million years plod.......The Greens are all Fabians (communists) and only believe in socialism which has been proven a failure....The Greens are "WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING" using the environment as a shadow for their hidden agenda.......If you prefer to live under a communist banner then move to a communist dominated country like North Korea, China or Cuba....There is no place for communism here in Australia.
> 
> Furthermore the Greens are in the decline and are going down down down.




Sure you are on planet earth atm noco. 

Over half our new members here at Bendigo of late were liberal voters last time. 

And on the polls,  and whilst working on pre-polling handing out,  the Greens are certainly not on the decline.   And commercial polling suggests the Greens will pick up two new lower house seats beside the one we have just in Victoria alone. 

Anyhow when you have the sort of arrogang banging on of people like Scott Morrison on TV is it any wonder people are swiching.


----------



## noco (28 June 2016)

explod said:


> Sure you are on planet earth atm noco.
> 
> Over half our new members here at Bendigo of late were liberal voters last time.
> 
> ...




It is obvious those people whom you refer to are either very naive or do not know what the Greens stand for and are just swinging because they do not like the two major parties....I do hope they do a little research before finally deciding.

They will be out of the frying pan and into the fire.


----------



## explod (28 June 2016)

noco said:


> It is obvious those people whom you refer to are either very naive or do not know what the Greens stand for and are just swinging because they do not like the two major parties....I do hope they do a little research before finally deciding.
> 
> They will be out of the frying pan and into the fire.




They are seeking a voice and change in political direction away from consumerism and back to productivity. 

Its that simple but requires some solid input on a community level without private so called experts and thier commissions.   An extension of the current community gardens for example would be one way.


----------



## Tisme (29 June 2016)

explod said:


> They are seeking a voice and change in political direction away from consumerism and back to productivity.
> 
> Its that simple but requires some solid input on a community level without private so called experts and thier commissions.   An extension of the current community gardens for example would be one way.




I'd like to see a return to some industrial and can-do productivity;  some pride in our meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars for example

Any chance Bill could broker an agreement with Ford and GM to stay?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'd like to see a return to some industrial and can-do productivity;  some pride in our meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars for example
> 
> Any chance Bill could broker an agreement with Ford and GM to stay?




Americans make crap cars.

Better to do a deal with Mercedes , BMW or Toyota and get some quality stuff made here.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2016)

Toyota would have probably stayed if we hadn't made it so hard for them.

Labor could have won this election but they have too many idiots running ther campaign. the Libs were in trouble till they pulled Tony Nutt in.

if they had of hired me I would have got them over the line:

Keep the taxes:- they were good ideas.
Promise to spend the taxes on infrastructure only:- that would swing a lot of votes.
Keep other costs to inflation as much as possible, Gonski - what a vote loser. They could have just rejigged the funding instead.
Find some minor savings -they have now done this but not till they told everyone they were going to increase the debt more than the Libs.

Seriously, they could have won this but they blew it. The trouble with Labor is the power of the education and health unions forcing them to spend, spend, spend. We are in debt guys.

Once it got close, it was a no brainer to vote Liberal. Who wants a hung Parliament with Labor, Greens and Lambie, and whoever else is needed. We would be back to stupid land.


----------



## Tisme (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Americans make crap cars.
> 
> Better to do a deal with Mercedes , BMW or Toyota and get some quality stuff made here.




At least we still have our home grown football to glorify .... until soccer and the hoodlums that come with it kill it off .... bl00dy foreigners!


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Toyota would have probably stayed if we hadn't made it so hard for them.
> 
> Labor could have won this election but they have too many idiots running ther campaign. the Libs were in trouble till they pulled Tony Nutt in.
> 
> ...




Spending on services vs spending on corporates ?

Something is a no brainer.

No word from the Libs about how reliant their corporate tax policy is on overseas events, and how shaky their ROI is.

0.9% improvement in GNI after 20 years. Pathetic. Is that the best they can do ?

And keep allowing the tax lurks of negative gearing on all homes and capital gains discount which costs $7 billion a year.

Yes, we are in a deficit guys, but as long as the mates are ok, that's fine. We'll just slug the sick to make up for it.


http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ments-company-tax-claims-20160529-gp6ika.html


----------



## Tisme (29 June 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Toyota would have probably stayed if we hadn't made it so hard for them.




They couldn't singularly support the supply chain



Knobby22 said:


> Labor could have won this election but they have too many idiots running ther campaign. the Libs were in trouble till they pulled Tony Nutt in.
> 
> if they had of hired me I would have got them over the line:
> 
> ...




One of those WTF moments .... where the Labs once again don't realise:


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2016)

I am not sure that spending to get yourself out of debt is the correct procedure in these tough economic times so I turned to Google for advice and this is what I got ....




74,500,000 results on how to PAY OFF debt and not one encourages you to spend more 

Maybe Bill Shorten can call Debtmediators for some advice?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> 74,500,000 results on how to PAY OFF debt and not one encourages you to spend more
> 
> Maybe Bill Shorten can call Debtmediators for some advice?




Depends on how you pay for your spending.

Not paying for negative gearing helps pay for it, and this is a structural reform that saves money every year.

I'm surprised that people who complain about Labor spending don't appear to support the negative gearing reforms, which Malcon himself called tax avoidance.


----------



## noco (29 June 2016)

Shorten keeps popping up with egg on his face with misquotes, lies and more damn lies...When will he ever learn.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...t/news-story/b7805b7aa87563eff817cd733f768a9b

*A key theme of Bill Shorten’s address to the National Press Club was the importance of treating voters with respect.

Citing his town hall meetings since last September and throughout the campaign, the Opposition Leader said: “You treat people as smart, as engaged, as empowered decision-makers in their own lives.’’

Why then did he treat them like mugs by using a partial quote from Malcolm Turnbull and claiming it was a “gaffe that marked the end of the Prime Minister’s credibility’’?

According to Shorten, the Prime Minister had said: “What political parties say they will support and oppose at one time is not necessarily what they will do.”

Shorten claimed this as evidence that the Coalition’s credibility was shot. “Tony Abbott famously told us ‘don’t listen to what I say, get it in writing’. Malcolm Turnbull has simply said — don’t bother, it’s a lie.’’

The problem for Shorten is that, while Turnbull said it, it was only part of what he said. The full quote had a different meaning. After uttering the passage quoted by Shorten at the Press Club, Turnbull went on to say: “You have seen the Labor Party has opposed many measures of ours at which they have substantially supported or subsequently changed their position on. The best-known of those is obviously the SchoolKids Bonus, which they made an iconic issue and launched petitions and campaigns and said they were going to fight all the way to election day to restore it and then did a very quick backflip on that.’’

In other words, it was an attack on Labor rather than an attempt to gain the Coalition wriggle room to weasel out of promises.

Shorten’s “gotcha’’ that wasn’t tarnished an otherwise sensible summation of Labor’s platform ahead of Saturday’s election. Despite ALP ads backing Shorten’s misquote, the issue threatens to fan doubts about his credibility. He was already under fire for Labor’s “Mediscare’’ campaign which frightens voters but is dismissed by experts and attacked by Turnbull as the campaign’s “biggest lie’’.

His latest salvo didn’t last through the hour-long Press Club appearance. The ABC’s Sabra Lane read out the second part of Turnbull’s quote and challenged Shorten to stand by his claim it was the defining quote of the campaign. He did.

In a campaign which has at its centre a discredited scare on Medicare and has seen Labor in a costings debate supporting cuts it once opposed and proposing a bigger deficit over four years than the government, Shorten’s misquote provides ammunition for attacks on his credibility. As the clock ticks down on the marathon campaign, Shorten, who is behind in Newspoll and trailing in key marginal seats, is flailing for every opportunity to haul in Turnbull. But he succeeds only in looking desperate.

*


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Depends on how you pay for your spending.
> 
> Not paying for negative gearing helps pay for it, and this is a structural reform that saves money every year.
> 
> I'm surprised that people who complain about Labor spending don't appear to support the negative gearing reforms, which Malcon himself called tax avoidance.




Yeah it worked really well for the Labor government in 1985 

Abolish CGT while you are at it Horace 



> “There’s a sad segment amongst Australians who believe that negative gearing is some kind of hand out to the rich,’’ he said.
> “Little do they know that there are approximately 1.9 million Australian property investors and more than 70 per cent of them only own one investment property and have a taxable income of less than $80,000.’’




http://www.news.com.au/finance/real...d/news-story/77e20e831663c67343a472443a62f986


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Yeah it worked really well for the Labor government in 1985
> 
> Abolish CGT while you are at it Horace
> 
> ...




Keating abolished the whole lot in 85. It's grandfathered under the latest arrangements, there is no comparison.

One investor's property is another family without their own home.

I don't give a stuff about Liberal propaganda, the vast majority of negative gearing benefits go to the top 10 percent of income earners.

It's a rort and should be got rid off.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Keating abolished the whole lot in 85. It's grandfathered under the latest arrangements, there is no comparison.
> 
> One investor's property is another family without their own home.
> 
> ...




One investor's property put's a roof over some peoples head who for whatever reason cannot afford a home due to circumstances like bad credit, not enough income, divorce, lifestyle choice, whatever.

Ermmmmm the Keating statement you might want to check you FACTS on that one ...

_Following the tax summit in July 1985 the Hawke/Keating government disallowed negative gearing interest expenses on properties bought after 17 July 1985. It meant that taxpayers could only offset interest expenses against rental income. It was no longer possible to obtain a tax deduction for that part of the interest expense that exceeded the net income from properties (that is rent less other expenses such as rates, maintenance, etc.). The left over interest costs could not be offset against other income. However, it could be carried forward to offset property income in later years._

Talk about taking a sledgehammer to fix a Rolex


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> One of those WTF moments .... where the Labs once again don't realise:
> 
> View attachment 67267




Yes, incredibly dumb.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Spending on services vs spending on corporates ?
> 
> Something is a no brainer.
> 
> ...




Its about competiveness with other countries.
Anyway it doesn't really matter, 10 years ahead?? It's just small business cuts for this term and they may not get  another much less a fourth term. I don't know why the Libs stated the 10 year plan, it was pretty dumb, and it will be a real millstone next election.


----------



## overhang (29 June 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Its about competiveness with other countries.
> Anyway it doesn't really matter, 10 years ahead?? It's just small business cuts for this term and they may not get  another much less a fourth term. I don't know why the Libs stated the 10 year plan, it was pretty dumb, and it will be a real millstone next election.




I really don't believe that a 5% lower tax rate will revive our manufacturing industry nor is it going to prevent companies shifting their profits to tax havens.  It will make such a negligible impact to the mining industry who are far more dependent on commodity prices than tax rates.  We have the minerals in the ground, they're a finite resource in an ever growing world population increasing demand, they can mine here with our healthy political climate, generous subsides and infrastructure or they can head elsewhere.  And a tax cut will do stuff all to boost the service industry who rely on consumer demand, a company tax cut will not put $ in the hands of consumers, individual tax cuts would.  Businesses don't just employ more people because they pay less tax, they depend on demand and these tax cuts do nothing to increase demand to a substantial level.  Trickle down economics is a load of :swear:


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2016)

overhang said:


> I really don't believe that a 5% lower tax rate will revive our manufacturing industry nor is it going to prevent companies shifting their profits to tax havens.  It will make such a negligible impact to the mining industry who are far more dependent on commodity prices than tax rates.  We have the minerals in the ground, they're a finite resource in an ever growing world population increasing demand, they can mine here with our healthy political climate, generous subsides and infrastructure or they can head elsewhere.  And a tax cut will do stuff all to boost the service industry who rely on consumer demand, a company tax cut will not put $ in the hands of consumers, individual tax cuts would.  Businesses don't just employ more people because they pay less tax, they depend on demand and these tax cuts do nothing to increase demand to a substantial level.  Trickle down economics is a load of :swear:




If that were the case then increasing the tax rate should have no effect either, in which case why not put it up to 99% and we all reap the benefits.

If you have a competitive environment, tax cuts should flow on to consumers and likely lead to increased demand, which in turn should cause an increase in production and employment. When our manufacturers and service industries compete with overseas companies, then the tax reduction makes our companies more competitive allowing them to expand.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

bellenuit said:


> If that were the case then increasing the tax rate should have no effect either, in which case why not put it up to 99% and we all reap the benefits.
> 
> If you have a competitive environment, tax cuts should flow on to consumers and likely lead to increased demand, which in turn should cause an increase in production and employment. When our manufacturers and service industries compete with overseas companies, then the tax reduction makes our companies more competitive allowing them to expand.




No business makes money unless consumers spend. 

The LNP have no plans for increasing consumer spending power. How will corporate tax cuts flow on to consumers ?

Business could just say thanks we'll take it as profit.

Thoughts of increased health prices (still on the books in the Senate), won't help consumer sentiment.

There are too many holes in the LNP plan. It was probably written by the business community themselves.


----------



## overhang (29 June 2016)

bellenuit said:


> If that were the case then increasing the tax rate should have no effect either, in which case why not put it up to 99% and we all reap the benefits.
> 
> If you have a competitive environment, tax cuts should flow on to consumers and likely lead to increased demand, which in turn should cause an increase in production and employment. When our manufacturers and service industries compete with overseas companies, then the tax reduction makes our companies more competitive allowing them to expand.




Of course within reason but our tax rates are currently quite competitive on an international level.  But it will only increase our GDP by 1% in the long run. It's an inefficient way of increasing cash flow to consumers when companies can bank the profits themselves and pay dividends to overseas shareholders and the quite negligible impact to the economy is evidence of that.  Give the money to the consumer and you're assured it will increase spending, increase demand and subsequently lead to employment.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2016)

Tighten the tax laws so they actually do pay some tax and get the best of both worlds.

Let's face it, McDonalds, Apple, Newscorp, Singtel etc. pay virtually no tax in any case.


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No business makes money unless consumers spend.
> 
> The LNP have no plans for increasing consumer spending power. How will corporate tax cuts flow on to consumers ?
> 
> ...




Company Tax is just another cost on business and reducing it will, in most cases, lead to a reduction in the price of the products/services produced which increases demand. That is very much Business 101. Increased spending power to consumers can be effected by increasing the funds they have available to buy or, as in this example, reducing the costs of the products they want to consume.

The ability of companies to simply cream off the tax cut as extra profit is generally only possible when the company is a monopoly within its industry. That's why it is the responsibility of government to prevent as far as possible monopolistic situations from occurring (one of the roles of the ACCC)


----------



## SirRumpole (29 June 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Company Tax is just another cost on business and reducing it will, in most cases, lead to a reduction in the price of the products/services produced which increases demand. That is very much Business 101. Increased spending power to consumers can be effected by increasing the funds they have available to buy or, as in this example, reducing the costs of the products they want to consume.
> 
> The ability of companies to simply cream off the tax cut as extra profit is generally only possible when the company is a monopoly within its industry. That's why it is the responsibility of government to prevent as far as possible monopolistic situations from occurring (one of the roles of the ACCC)




What you have said could also be done with an increase in the minimum wage. The people most likely to spend, ie the low income earners would spend this money in the economy.

The business sector is now complaining of a lack of wage growth. Well, now is their chance to provide some of that wage growth.

Labor say they support a company tax cut for small business of less than $2 million turnover, which is 86% of businesses. Multi nationals which avoid tax already don't need a tax cut, they only pay around 25% on average.

The ultimate goal should be to lower everyone's tax, but have you seen the deficit and debt disaster left by this government ?


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2016)

The defining moment of the campaign ?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpfBriMicYY

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...l-of-karl-stefanovics-budget-surplus-grilling


----------



## noco (29 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> .
> 
> The ultimate goal should be to lower everyone's tax, but have you seen the deficit and debt disaster left by this government ?




And what did the Liberals inherit from Labor 2013.....They inherited a massive debt and deficit thanks to Rudd/Gillard wreck less spending and the underfunded NDIS and Gonski.....You know the funding Sawnnie said he would recoup from the "MINING TAX" that cost more to administer than what he collected.   They inherited an on going cost of maintaining 50,000 illegal boat people plus those still left in detention......The Green/Labor dominated senate obstructed $16 billions  in savings  which Labor now states they would implement  if they win government......Not much help from the Green/Labor coalition in the national interest.....So long as Labor could make the Liberal Government look bad....What a grubby lot!!!!

Had Labor still been in power after 2013  debt and deficit  would have been even higher...Just look at Labor's history and their forecast beyond July 2016.


----------



## noco (29 June 2016)

explod said:


> Sure you are on planet earth atm noco.
> 
> And on the polls,  and whilst working on pre-polling handing out,  the Greens are certainly not on the decline.   And commercial polling suggests the Greens will pick up two new lower house seats beside the one we have just in Victoria alone.
> 
> .




In 2013 the Greens vote dropped 3.1% to 8.6%.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/31947229/greens-hope-for-balance-of-power-talks/#page1

*His party wants to lift its primary vote, which fell 3.1 percentage points to 8.6 per cent in the 2013 election, and achieve big swings in targeted seats.*


----------



## Tisme (29 June 2016)

If I was Mal or Bill I'd be trying to lose for the next 3 years as Brexit and the chain reaction washes through the international economy.


----------



## noco (29 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> If I was Mal or Bill I'd be trying to lose for the next 3 years as Brexit and the chain reaction washes through the international economy.




Brexit is being beaten up by the media...It will all settle down very soon.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> If I was Mal or Bill I'd be trying to lose for the next 3 years as Brexit and the chain reaction washes through the international economy.



For the leader of any political party, government today is better than a chance tomorrow.

That's how Mal and Bill would both see it.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2016)

Within striking distance ?


----------



## dutchie (30 June 2016)

Labor should replace sleazy Shorten with Albanese irrespective of Saturdays result.


----------



## Tisme (30 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> Labor should replace sleazy Shorten with Albanese irrespective of Saturdays result.





You're kidding ..right? Put someone who universally liked by both sides of the argument and doesn't mind pulling his head in when he brain farts....never going to happen.


----------



## noco (30 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> You're kidding ..right? Put someone who universally liked by both sides of the argument and doesn't mind pulling his head in when he brain farts....never going to happen.




Barnacle Bill says he has a united team but he forget about those 50 Labor MPs who are against the BOAT TURN BACK.....UNITED ??????????????....lMAO

Albo is already sharpening the knife for the next Labor party meeting....Would love to be a fly on the wall. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...3/news-story/0e82ef85426a546e4d33e6b7b00c1257

*BILL Shorten is refusing to buy into reports that Labor MPs are already plotting his downfall should he lose on Saturday.

Speculation is mounting that popular frontbencher Anthony Albanese could mount a leadership challenge if Mr Shorten does poorly on Saturday.

“I have no surprise that in the days Labor is closing in on winning that some people will try and distract people from our case,” he told Alan Jones on radio 2GB this morning.

Under Labor rules agreed in 2013, Mr Shorten will be forced to spill the leadership if he loses the election.

The Opposition Leader is continuing his Medicare and health crusade in the Liberal seats of Brisbane and Forde today.

The Prime Minister is doing a radio blitz appearing on Sydney, Melbourne, Darwin and Tasmanian radio. before making a televised election address at the National Press Club in Canberra.

He is expected to use the address to call for an end to division for division’s sake.*

Bill may be the brides maid but never the bride.


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## SirRumpole (30 June 2016)

noco said:


> Barnacle Bill says he has a united team but he forget about those 50 Labor MPs who are against the BOAT TURN BACK.....UNITED ??????????????....lMAO
> 
> Albo is already sharpening the knife for the next Labor party meeting....Would love to be a fly on the wall.
> 
> ...




So what if Turnbull loses ? He'll be out for sure.


----------



## noco (30 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So what if Turnbull loses ? He'll be out for sure.




Rumpy, he ain't gonna lose.


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## noco (31 October 2016)

We always knew Labor was controlled by the CFMEU and now the union has made it official.....Bill Shorten is their puppet and he must toe the line or else...This also applies to all Labor MPs.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e/news-story/0670aaea504cc1715d9cd8f7bf707282


*A SENIOR official within a militant state branch of the CFMEU has vowed to take over the Labor Party and bring down ALP politicians who refuse to bow to demands.

Video footage of the CFMEU officials’ brazen call-to-arms to help kill off the construction watchdog will be used by the Turnbull Government today to embarrass Bill Shorten and highlight the need for the Australian Building and Construction Commission to be reintroduced.

Just days after the Opposition Leader praised the union movement at Queensland’s state conference, footage released today reveals serial offender Joe McDonald and his co-West Australian state secretary Graham Pallot rallying troops.

The 1-minute 40-second long footage, taken in April and posted on the private Facebook page of a union member, shows Mr McDonald addressing a crowd before Mr Pallot vows to stack and infiltrate the ALP with CFMEU officials and sympathisers.




CFMEU Assistant State Secretary Joe McDonald, right. Pic: MARIE NIRME.
“What we’ve actually got to do is take ownership and responsibility of the ALP,” Mr Pallot says.

“We’ve got to go in there and get the numbers. For every 40 people that join, the construction branch gets more say.

“We are getting influence in the ALP and that’s how we’re going to get in there. We’re not going to wait for the politicians to come and do it for us.

“With your support, we’re going to put politicians in that represent the working class.

“If they don’t we’re going to remove the politician and we’ve got to replace them with someone who does stand up for the values we want ... (that gets) rid of the ABCC.

“We’re not just going to ask them to do it we’re going to go in and demand they do it.’’

The WA branch of the CFMEU has significant control over who is preselected to represent the ALP.

Those without union support generally fail in their bid for parliament.

Mr McDonald has been fined more than $1 million because of workplace laws.

He was once taped making threatening comments about a worksite company official.

In July this year, Federal Court Judge Michael Barker said of Mr McDonald, “the fact of the matter is that the history of contraventions attributable to Mr McDonald shows that he uses unlawful industrial action as a calculated tool”.

In 2013, Mr McDonald was fined more than $30,000 after threatening to have workers thrown off a job site if they refused to strike.

Kevin Rudd expelled Mr McDonald from the Labor Party but he has since rejoined.*

We need the ABCCC back as soon as possible to stop these thugs.


----------



## noco (14 November 2016)

Just had an obnoxious phone call from Bill Shorten...I told him to b*gger off....More Green/Labor left wing commo propaganda.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 November 2016)

noco said:


> Just had an obnoxious phone call from Bill Shorten...I told him to b*gger off....More Green/Labor left wing commo propaganda.




Wow, you must be really important.


----------



## noco (26 December 2016)

Barnacle Bill just could not resist being political in his Xmas message to the Nation as Craig Kelly explained on Face Book...What a wanker.

*ABUSING A CHRISTMAS TRADITION

 It's a long standing Christmas tradition, that Christmas messages from political leaders are non-political.

 And this year we again heard inspiring non-political messages of hope, peace and goodwill from leaders around the world including; Malcolm Turnbull, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Barack Obama, The Queen and many others.

 But there was one exception; Bill Shorten. 

 Bill Shorten sought to exploit this Christmas tradition, by politicising his Christmas message by referring to "penalty rates" stating "they are something I'll always fight for".

 First, the absolutely hypocrisy.

 As 'The Australian' has detailed of the CleanEvent scandal; 

 " ......while Mr Shorten was AWU Victoria state secretary and Cleanevent’s union representative, an EBA was entered, which reversed worker-friendly deals, REMOVING NIGHT-SHIFT PENALTIES AND WEEKEND LOADINGS".

 "The deal was highly beneficial for Cleanevent because the bulk of cleaning work was conducted outside office hours, and DURING WEEKENDS, cleaning up after events ....

 "Analysis based on wages bills conducted by The Australian, with the aid of industry experts, shows that taking into account the differences to the EBA introduced in 1998 workers were collectively about $420m worse off than they would have been had LEAVE LOADINGS NOT BEEN REMOVED from the EBA."

 The final report of the Royal Commission noted of this sweetheart deal which ripped away penalty rates;

 “Both the AWU and Cleanevent were conscious during the negotiation process that if Cleanevent’s rates were accepted, it was unlikely that the 2004 EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement) would meet the no-disadvantage test,” the report said.

 “However, that was a matter kept from the Australian Industrial Relations Commission.

 “In exchange for payments of $25,000 per year, the Victorian branch of the AWU in substance agreed for three years not to seek better terms and conditions for those of its members employed by Cleanevent.

 “It would not have been difficult to obtain better terms and conditions. But the Victorian branch of the AWU preferred to take money for itself.

 “For workers employed by Cleanevent the outcome was appalling. The members of the Cleanevent management team involved in the deal described it as saving the company amounts ranging from $1 million to $2 million.

 “All involved benefited from the deal except the people the union was supposed to be representing.’’

 Secondly, the fakery. 

 Stating penalty rates are "something I'll always fight for" is another of Labor's false flag operations. 

 It's just like the Mediscare lies where Labor over and over peddled lies about "Medicare being privatised by Coalition" to deceive the public, when Labor knew it was impossible for Medicare to be privatised. 

 And Labor are doing the same thing on penalty rates. The facts are that Penalty rates in Australia are set the independent Fair Work Commission, not the Government. 

 Yet Labor peddle over and over the false scare campaign that Coalition are going to strip away penalty rates leaving workers out of pocket, when under the Fair Work Act 2009 (which the Coalition have no proposal to change) Labor know that's impossible.

 By abusing Christmas traditions and by so hypocritically exploiting his Christmas message to try and give weight to this trickery, Bill Shorten has given yet another example of why he is completely unfit to ever be Prime Minister of Australia.
*
http://www.sbs.com.au/…/shortens-christmas-penalty-rates-pl…


----------



## explod (26 December 2016)

Any leader worth his salt and half a conscience should have mentioned the families of and the 19 unemployed for each existing job and the findings that drug increases particularly ice is coming from this sector of our people.   I have no time for Shorten at all but at least he was skirting around the edges with a bit of substance. 

Not like the empty "jobs and growth" repeat with no how to.  Just cut taxes for the wealthiest businesses. Ever wondered noco on what makes a commo, fabian or socialist.?


----------



## noco (26 December 2016)

explod said:


> Any leader worth his salt and half a conscience should have mentioned the families of and the 19 unemployed for each existing job and the findings that drug increases particularly ice is coming from this sector of our people.   I have no time for Shorten at all but at least he was skirting around the edges with a bit of substance.
> 
> Not like the empty "jobs and growth" repeat with no how to.  Just cut taxes for the wealthiest businesses. Ever wondered noco on what makes a commo, fabian or socialist.?




It depends on which organisation you want to follow because there are many variations in Socialism as explained in the link below.......For some countries, Socialism or Communism has been a total failure as proven in Russia, Cuba and North Korea where it had all started by Karl Marx....China has distinctly moved away from Communism where free enterprise is now accepted.

One of the problems with Socialism is the lack of incentive for workers to improve their wealth.......Under socialism workers do really care if there are over or under runs in factories
due to lack of marketing research.

The reason why many countries are reducing business tax is induce investment and create more employment.

I am not sure which one you would want to follow

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Socialists.

Off Topic.


----------



## explod (26 December 2016)

noco said:


> It depends on which organisation you want to follow because there are many variations in Socialism as explained in the link below.......For some countries, Socialism or Communism has been a total failure as proven in Russia, Cuba and North Korea where it had all started by Karl Marx....China has distinctly moved away from Communism where free enterprise is now accepted.
> 
> One of the problems with Socialism is the lack of incentive for workers to improve their wealth.......Under socialism workers do really care if there are over or under runs in factories
> due to lack of marketing research.
> ...



Specifically I do not follow anyone, I try to think for myself.  I feel most people who have had a reasonable education would do the same.  In my earlier years politicians were fairly individual and put forward the concerns of the peoples from within their electorates.   Today they have to toe the line party wise or your out.  So democracy has gone in my view.  And Shorten as with Turnbull follow that dictatorial way.  And in feeding the sheeple with hollow nothings in the xmas messages it is clear.

As for trying to label or class peoples into different groups you perpetuate the idea of drafting and controlling individuality.


----------



## noco (26 December 2016)

explod said:


> Specifically I do not follow anyone, I try to think for myself.  I feel most people who have had a reasonable education would do the same.  In my earlier years politicians were fairly individual and put forward the concerns of the peoples from within their electorates.   Today they have to toe the line party wise or your out.  So democracy has gone in my view.  And Shorten as with Turnbull follow that dictatorial way.  And in feeding the sheeple with hollow nothings in the xmas messages it is clear.
> 
> As for trying to label or class peoples into different groups you perpetuate the idea of drafting and controlling individuality.




So you don't even follow the social ideology of the Greens which you have often said you are member.

So under socialism would workers loose their penalty rates like they did at Cleanevent and Chiquita? 

Under Socialism I understand that everybody is equal...Therefore if you are a Labourer, a plumber or a doctor you all get the same rates of pay......You down down tools when your 38 hours are up.


----------



## explod (27 December 2016)

noco said:


> So you don't even follow the social ideology of the Greens which you have often said you are member.
> 
> So under socialism would workers loose their penalty rates like they did at Cleanevent and Chiquita?
> 
> Under Socialism I understand that everybody is equal...Therefore if you are a Labourer, a plumber or a doctor you all get the same rates of pay......You down down tools when your 38 hours are up.



The is no flexibity in you thinking noco,  under your world wed be tin soldiers all in a row.  Waste of time discussing anything reasonable with you ole pal.  Have a good one


----------



## noco (27 December 2016)

explod said:


> The is no flexibity in you thinking noco,  under your world wed be tin soldiers all in a row.  Waste of time discussing anything reasonable with you ole pal.  Have a good one




Oh come on Plod, I am serious....I want to know more about Socialism and what really happens and I could not think of anyone more suited to explain it to me.


----------



## PZ99 (27 December 2016)

noco said:


> And Labor are doing the same thing on penalty rates. The facts are that Penalty rates in Australia are set the independent Fair Work Commission, not the Government.



That doesn't mean anything. You can still "fight" for penalty rates regardless of who they are set by. It's the one reason I stopped voting Liberal - every time they get in they bash penalty rates - cost John Howard his seat to an ABC journalist. LOL


----------



## noco (27 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> That doesn't mean anything. You can still "fight" for penalty rates regardless of who they are set by. It's the one reason I stopped voting Liberal - every time they get in they bash penalty rates - cost John Howard his seat to an ABC journalist. LOL




But didn't Bill Shorten bash the penalty rates for Cleanevent and Chiquita or have you forgotten?..Shorten also allowed 457 visa for Mc Donalds to allow them to bring in overseas workers at very low rates of pay.

Years ago when shops closed at midday on Saturday and there was no weekend trading, penallty rates were awarded to those who worked 40 hours Monday to Friday for the one employer and then were asked to work on Saturday or Sunday......Now we have have businesses open almost 24/7 and workers are taking a second job with a different employer to make ends meet and then expecting penalty rates before they have worked their now 38 hours for the second employer...What I am trying to say is the system has been exploited by the unions....If employees want to take a second job on weekends over and above their normal job Monday to Friday, should they be entitled to penalty rates or not?


----------



## PZ99 (27 December 2016)

Absolutely they should. The error you are making is linking penalty rates with overtime. Did you work yesterday? Or the Day before? 
Penalty rates have nothing to do with overtime. They are a rate set to reimburse an employee for working non sociable hours. 

I have to laugh at this claim by the business community that we are a 24/7 society. We're not. If we were there would be no weekends. No weekends = banks, schools, stock market open every day and every night. 

Employers want to kill off penalty rates solely to increase their profits or in the case of small business to become viable (if they aren't viable under this current climate they're in the wrong game)

I'm well aware of the Bill Shorten Cleanevent and Chiquita affair. I'm also well aware that since that time the Howard Govt killed off penalty rates altogether and elements of this Govt want to do it again.


----------



## noco (27 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> Absolutely they should. The error you are making is linking penalty rates with overtime. Did you work yesterday? Or the Day before?
> Penalty rates have nothing to do with overtime. They are a rate set to reimburse an employee for working non sociable hours.
> 
> I have to laugh at this claim by the business community that we are a 24/7 society. We're not. If we were there would be no weekends. No weekends = banks, schools, stock market open every day and every night.
> ...




This link may change your mind about Howard killing off penalty rates when in fact it was instigated by Paul Keating and followed on by Labor MP Mark Butler.

Enjoy the ride.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/aa039ea7e0a43053401e4faedf198901

*Labor’s Mark Butler has hailed a landmark deal to slash penalty rates as the realisation of Paul Keating’s economic vision, as the Abbott government said the complicated “machinery” of the penalty rates system could be further redesigned.

The Australian this morning revealed the country’s largest union has agreed to slash weekend penalty rates for the retail sector in a breakthrough deal in South Australia that could affect up to 40,000 workers and be replicated across the nation.

In the first agreement of its kind for small business in Australia, penalty rates will be abolished on Saturdays and halved on Sundays in exchange for a higher base rate of pay and other improved conditions.

Mr Butler, a senior South Australian frontbencher and candidate for Labor national president, said the bargaining process used to reach the deal between employers and the shoppies union is what Labor has supported for more than 20 years.

“This is what we envisaged when Paul Keating’s government put together the enterprise bargaining model,” Mr Butler, who worked for 15 years as a union official, said in Canberra.

“This is exactly the model that we envisaged and it’s in stark contrast to the idea that you would go up to the industrial commission and try to change – unilaterally – the penalty rates across the country.”






Labor national president candidate Mark Butler said the bargaining process used to reach the deal between employers and the shoppies union is what Labor has supported for more than 20 years.

Small Business Minister Bruce Billson said the template agreement, signed between the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association and Business SA, highlighted “the flexibility that’s in the current law”.

“There are mechanisms in the current law. Whether they are adequate, whether they’re responsive, whether one can navigate them, they’re important discussions for the Productivity Commission review,” Mr Billson told Sky News.

“Even this quite constructive and encouraging step forward, it still required a big industry association to navigate the procedural requirements and get to the point where there is a template agreement that a retailer in South Australia can discuss with their employees and see if it works well for all of them.

“How friendly is it to a smaller enterprise to navigate this machinery, which seems designed more for big organisations and representative organisations rather than for a small, nimble, agile smaller enterprise looking just to get ahead to create opportunities for themselves and their communities?”

“What’s Bill Shorten’s position? He sort of thinks we live in this nine-to-five, back-to-the-50s kind of economy; that’s not the case.”

Employment Minister Eric Abetz said the South Australian negotiators “should be applauded for taking a constructive approach”.

“It highlights the benefits of encouraging workplaces to sit down and negotiate terms and conditions that suit their specific needs,” Senator Abetz told The Australian.

“Setting penalty rates is a matter for the Fair Work Commission, but if workplaces can arrange a better deal on which they agree that complies with the law, they should be encouraged to do so.”

“The question is — will Bill Shorten and Labor support this deal?”

Labor deputy leader Tanya Plibersek said: “I’m not going to start commentating on individual agreements that employees and employers strike in particular workplaces or in particular industries. I think that this shows that there’s flexibility in the system but I’m not going to comment on it beyond that.”

Labor parliamentary secretary Matt Thistlethwaite said the South Australian deal was “by all accounts, a win-win for the employees and the businesses involved”.

“This deal proves that you can reach arrangements with them but you need to consult with employees and you need to make sure they’re better off over all. That’s the test in the system: they need to be better off overall,” he said.

Assistant Infrastucture Minister Jamie Briggs, a South Australian, said the deal vindicated the coalition’s position that penalty rates were a matter for the Fair Work Commission.

“If employers and employees work together for their best interests then we’ll get a better result,” he said.

Independent SA senator Nick Xenophon says Saturday and Sunday are now regarded as ordinary trading days for the hospitality and retail sectors.

“It’s always been my position that there needs to be greater flexibility for small employers,” he said.

South Australian Family First senator Bob Day said the deal marked “the long overdue fall of one of many remaining barriers to getting a job”.

NSW Liberal Democrats senator David Leyonhjelm said Australians who wanted to work weekends had been priced out of the market by penalty rates. He also described South Australia as an economic basket case.

“Maybe somebody there has finally woken up to the fact that they do need to change if they’re going to turn it around.”

First agreement of its kind

The country’s largest union has agreed to slash weekend penalty rates for the retail sector in a breakthrough deal in South Australia that could affect up to 40,000 workers and be replicated across the nation.

In the first agreement of its kind for small business in Australia, penalty rates will be abolished on Saturdays and halved on Sundays in exchange for a higher base rate of pay and other improved conditions.

The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry said the agreement reached between the shop assistants’ union and the state chamber of commerce could help reboot the struggling retail sector and stimulate jobs growth.

ACCI chief executive Kate Carnell said she was pleased the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees’ Association (SDA) had acknowledged that penalty rates were an “obvious” problem for small businesses and said the agreement provided scope for an agreed national template.

“We are pleased that the SDA has focused on what is a very real problem and we would hope that sort of focus happened more broadly across Australia,” she said.

“This template approach gives these smaller retailers a real opportunity to compete better with larger retailers, and also look at how they can grow their business and employ more people, particularly the significant number of youth that are unemployed.

“We are hopeful that this would flow across Australia.”

Amid a political impasse on changing industrial relations laws, the deal has also highlighted the ability of business to use the enterprise bargaining framework to win ground on penalty rates.

The government has asked the Productivity Commission to undertake a public inquiry to examine the workplace relations framework, but has ruled out making any changes before the next election.

The template agreement signed between the SDA and Business SA can be adopted by small businesses if agreed to by employees, and would apply to about two-thirds of the state’s 60,000 retail workers employed in small and medium-sized businesses.

It reduces penalty rates for Sundays from a 100 per cent loading to 50 per cent, cuts public holiday rates from 150 per cent to 100 per cent, and abolishes penalty rates on Saturdays and weekday evenings.

In exchange, workers will receive a higher base wage than under the award, a guaranteed 3 per cent annual pay rise, and an unprecedented right to refuse to work on Sundays and public holidays. It also gives permanent workers the right to every second weekend off.

For a full-time shop assistant, the base rate of pay would jump by 8 per cent from $703.90 a week to $760 a week.

Each workplace would still need to submit a signed agreement to the Fair Work Commission to pass the “better off overall” test to come into effect.

Rhett Biglands, a former AFL footballer who owns Nike Rundle Mall in Adelaide, said penalty rates on public holidays had previously made it uneconomic for him to open. The template model was a positive move for small business, he said, and would allow employees such as 22-year-old Danielle Pipicella to benefit.

“Anything that would help me open on those public holidays and Sundays would help me out and help my customers out, and would provide more employment for young people,” he said.

Business SA chief executive Nigel McBride, who negotiated the deal after being approached by SDA state secretary Peter Malinauskas, said the state’s businesses were “suffering” under the national award system.

He said given the absence of political will from the Abbott government to tackle unaffordable penalty rates — particularly while SA suffered the country’s highest unemployment rate of 6.9 per cent — business needed an urgent solution. “We want a fundamental overhaul of penalty rates, but we have to have a pragmatic alternative because it is clear to us that nothing is going to change,” Mr McBride said.

“This will be a first in Australia. It is the leading national example of a peak chamber and a peak union getting together and saying we are unhappy and let’s have a compromise.”

He said the union movement had been in “utter denial” about the impact of penalty rates on jobs growth nationally, which he believed would pick up if business adopted the new agreement. “This is an important acknowledgment by the country and the state’s largest union that penalty rates have got to be addressed, and that in the SME sector, penalty rates are really having a negative impact.”

Mr Malinauskas said the union had not conceded penalty rates were a problem, and had instead demonstrated the current enterprise bargaining system worked. “If employers want to address the issue of penalty rates, they should do it by negotiating with employees and their representatives, not by unilaterally cutting entitlements via the Fair Work Commission,” he said. “The penalty rate structure that exists within the award should be maintained and should not be taken away, but if employers are wanting to do something about penalty rates, they need only negotiate with their employees.”

He said the big win for workers was securing the right to refuse to work on Sundays and public holidays.

“The political argument from employers and conservative commentators on this issue is that there are all these people who are working on Sundays because they want to work on Sundays — this puts that principle to the test.”

Restaurant and Catering Industry Association chief executive John Hart said the hospitality sector would welcome a similar deal. “I am sceptical that positivity towards negotiation is widespread among unions,” he said, “but I am very pleased that at least in South Australia, and at least in retail, they have seen the light.”

SDA national secretary Gerard Dwyer said penalty rates were an important issue for workers, but the right to refuse to work weekends and public holidays was a significant achievement of the agreement. “Voluntary work on a Sunday in the retail industry in this country is an amazing step forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if other branches might be interested in doing something similar.”
*
_*Additional reporting: AAP*_


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## PZ99 (28 December 2016)

No that link didn't change my mind. Exchanging penalty rates for a higher base pay is totally different from slashing them altogether which the Howard Govt did. 

Nice try though


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## Tisme (28 December 2016)

noco said:


> So under socialism would workers loose their penalty rates like they did at Cleanevent and Chiquita?





Good to see you are worried about workers rights Noco. Makes a nice change to see you championing those from whence you came as a young Pip Pirrip. Here's me thinking you were ashamed of all those Joe Gargerys of your formative years.


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## noco (28 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> No that link didn't change my mind. Exchanging penalty rates for a higher base pay is totally different from slashing them altogether which the Howard Govt did.
> 
> Nice try though




So do you have a link or some proof about John Howard slashing penalty rates.

You seem reluctant to criticize Bill Shorten and his dirty deal for the workers of Cleanevent , Chiquita, Coles and McDonalds.


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## PZ99 (28 December 2016)

Are you saying that Bill Shorten negotiating away penalty rates for a better base pay was a "dirty deal" ?

As for John Howard; penalty rates were removed from the IR laws under the workchoices legislation. End result being workers getting ripped off.

http://www.fsunion.org.au/campaigns/yourrightsatwork_campaign2005/news/1144817912_13334.html

_Bakers Delight Workers Lose Sick Leave, Annual Leave And Penalty Rates 12 April 2006_
_
A newspaper report in March showed that young workers at Bakers Delight outlets in regional Victoria were losing their paid sick leave and annual leave entitlements for as little as 75 cents an hour. 
 Commenting on the report, ACTU Secretary Greg Combet said: 

 "These Bakers Delight workers are getting a raw deal and workers could expect worse under new WorkChoices laws, effective later this month. 

 The Government's new work laws effectively give a green light to employers who want to remove basic conditions. 

 These workers are being put onto an employment contract that trades away their entitlement to paid sick leave and four weeks paid annual leave. 

*It also removes their entitlement to penalty rates for working nights, weekends and public holidays - instead offering a flat hourly rate for working until 10pm at night or on weekends and public holidays*. 

 A 16 year old employee who works at this Bakers' Delight outlet would receive only $8.13 an hour for working on a Saturday, a Sunday or a public holiday. 

 Under the award, they should be paid more than twice this amount for working on a public holiday - $17.88 an hour -- and $6 an hour more for working on a Sunday. 

 The Bakers' Delight rosters can also be changed with a day's notice, even though the current award requires workers be given 14 days notice. 

 Unions warned that young people and other vulnerable workers would lose out under the Howard Government's IR laws and this shows that we were right. People are already starting to be worse off." _


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## noco (28 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> ?
> Penalty rates have nothing to do with overtime. They are a rate set to reimburse an employee for working non sociable hours.




Overtime is regarded as a penalty rate I am sorry to say as per the link below.

https://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/penalty-rates-and-allowances

Penalty rates
Employees often get a higher pay rate when working:


weekends
public holidays
overtime
late nights shifts or
early morning shifts.


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## PZ99 (28 December 2016)

You are quoting a response to your earlier argument that workers were getting penalty rates for taking a second job on weekends. That's not overtime. But yeah, overtime rates are a penalty rate but not in the context you posted before.

I presume you don't agree with penalty rates or other employee allowances?


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## noco (28 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> You are quoting a response to your earlier argument that workers were getting penalty rates for taking a second job on weekends. That's not overtime. But yeah, overtime rates are a penalty rate but not in the context you posted before.
> 
> I presume you don't agree with penalty rates or other employee allowances?




Your presumption is totally wrong.
I do believe it is wrong having to pay a second job worker at $42 per hour on a public holiday to wash dishes in a restaurant


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## PZ99 (28 December 2016)

noco said:


> Your presumption is totally wrong.



In what way? I've seen posts from you condemning penalty rates, long service leave and leave loading.



noco said:


> I do believe it is wrong having to pay a second job worker at $42 per hour on a public holiday to wash dishes in a restaurant



Why? If your boss can make money by pulling you away from family time on a public holiday you should be compensated for it.


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## noco (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> In what way? I've seen posts from you condemning penalty rates, long service leave and leave loading.
> 
> 
> Why? If your boss can make money by pulling you away from family time on a public holiday you should be compensated for it.




Not so much condemning as pointing out how it has added to the   cost of manufacturing over the years and the reason why we manufacture very  little now in Australia......The reason why Companies have gone over seas...The reason why so many jobs have been lost......So please get your facts right...Don't twist things around to suit your argument.

And also the reason why some restaurants don't open on public holidays is because of the excessive penalty rates they have to pay. .....So once again workers miss out.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

The workers who miss out are the workers who lose income as a result of imbecilic law changes such as the lowering or removal of penalty rates. So do you have a link or some proof that penalty rates are the reason "many jobs have been lost" as you naively put it? After all our unemployment is still relatively low, ask Malcolm Turnbull - he agrees 

As for getting facts right have a look at your previous comments. One moment you're saying it's wrong to pay a second job worker $42 a hour on public holidays and the next you're saying it's wrong to assume you don't agree with penalty rates. Please make up your mind. Either you agree with penalty rates or you don't.



noco said:


> You seem reluctant to criticize Bill Shorten and his dirty deal for the workers of Cleanevent , Chiquita, Coles and McDonalds.



There you go. With that erroneous comment you've just twisted things around to suit your argument. Is this the lexicon of the elitist right wing movement? Do as you say not as you do? Violating your own standards?

Bill Shortens' "penalty rate" Christmas message was no more or less political than Malcolm Turnbulls' type of "don't be racist" message reinforcing “harmony” between Australians of different ethnicities and religions. Personally I think both messages were far more decent than Craig Kellys' disparaging and hilarious comments... not to mention your own remarks.


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## noco (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> The workers who miss out are the workers who lose income as a result of imbecilic law changes such as the lowering or removal of penalty rates. So do you have a link or some proof that penalty rates are the reason "many jobs have been lost" as you naively put it? After all our unemployment is still relatively low, ask Malcolm Turnbull - he agrees
> 
> As for getting facts right have a look at your previous comments. One moment you're saying it's wrong to pay a second job worker $42 a hour on public holidays and the next you're saying it's wrong to assume you don't agree with penalty rates. Please make up your mind. Either you agree with penalty rates or you don't.
> 
> ...




From the way you write with your aggressive socialist rhetoric, one would have to believe you are young and naive as to comparisons of current working conditions to that of the 40's. 50's and 60's...Perhaps you were not even born then.

We once had woolen mills, knitting mills, shoe factories, clothing factories and began making vehicles in the late 40's employing 1000's of workers.....We were almost self sufficient except for oil....We had everything we needed for high employment.

So I ask you now where have all those factories gone  and the reason for their closure?

The point I was trying make before you got your knickers in a knot, is the fact that the increased cost to those factories  is the result of a combination of working conditions imposed upon them by militant unions.
We once worked a full 40 hours per week which has now been reduced to 38 and in some cases 36.
We once had two weeks annual leave and now 4 weeks.
There was no leave loading on annual leave ...we now have 17.5% added.
There no superannuation scheme...Employers now are compelled to fork out 9.5%
We now have 6 months full paid maternity leave.
Overtime penalty rates were time and a half on Saturday morning and double time on Saturday afternoon and Sundays...There no triple time on public holidays.
The communist dominated unions were constantly creating strikes over trivial matters.

So the sensible point I am trying to get through to you is the fact the combination of all the above, plus State and Federal Government Red tape, Green tape and demarcations have all added to the cost of manufacturing and the closure of those once thriving factories......So ask you now, where are our shoes, clothing, woolen mills, knitting mills and car industry gone and what do you think has happened to them?

We now live in a changed world where shops and many other business are open 7 days per week where as before everything shut down at midday on Saturday and Sunday was supposed be a day of rest.
This where penalty rates comes into play on weekends and Business has to decide whether to  add on the cost to consumers and become less competitive or close up during the weekend hours....So this where workers could be missing out on weekend work because of the high cost to be gainfully employed......Whether there is agreement to reduce penalty rates is a decision between employer, employees, the unions and the Fair Work.
I put it to you, would you sooner have a half a loaf of bread or non at all?.


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2016)

noco said:


> So ask you now, where are our shoes, clothing, woolen mills, knitting mills and car industry gone and what do you think has happened to them?




They went to countries that pay workers 50 cents an hour. You can't live on that here so no one would want a job in those industries. Sure the militant unions were a factor, but in the area of unskilled labour other countries have a lot more of it than us. The result was inevitable really. But you are always saying that imported stuff is cheaper and we should be thankful for that, so where do you really stand ?


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## noco (29 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> They went to countries that pay workers 50 cents an hour. You can't live on that here so no one would want a job in those industries. Sure the militant unions were a factor, but in the area of unskilled labour other countries have a lot more of it than us. The result was inevitable really. But you are always saying that imported stuff is cheaper and we should be thankful for that, so where do you really stand ?



I don't know about your statement where I am always saying that imported goods are cheaper and that we should be thankful, that is your story but you are right, they are cheaper and  perhaps we should thankful that the price of shoes and clothing we now buy in Australia are less than half the price of the cost made in Australia and one can't complain about the quality....We once had tariffs to protect our industries against cheaper imported goods but those tariffs were abolished firstly by Paul Keating......Not that I agree with tariffs and this where free trade agreements come into play.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

noco said:


> I put it to you, would you sooner have a half a loaf of bread or non at all?



I would rather have food on the table - like most workers. I would also like to have fair family time - like most workers. Trading away family time for work has to be fair. Reducing wages for workers who currently work on weekends for the sole purpose of opening weekends obviously isn't fair on the worker.

There's never been a truer word spoken when you say we're living in a changed world. Over the last 30 years workers have lost many of their rights and allowances thanks to both sides of politics shifting to the right.  It's now a far more capitalistic society, so why would I care if a business opens or closes on a Sunday? That's their choice. As previously mentioned, if your boss can make money by pulling you away from family time on a public holiday you should be compensated for it. If you have a problem with penalty rates, employ your workers on a salary. A no brainer really.

Factories closing is a result of the lowering of tariffs, increased OH&S red tape, compliance taxes, online retail, removal of taxpayer subsidies and/or the weak population base in this country. Ford & Holden didn't close because of penalty rates. They closed because they failed to sell their large, heavy, fuel thirsty cars to a populace that want smaller, fuel efficient cars. Commodore / Falcon sales figures are a fraction of where they were 20 years ago. And 20 years ago workers had far more rights than they do today.



noco said:


> We once worked a full 40 hours per week which has now been reduced to 38 and in some cases 36.



The average working week is beyond 40 hours due to the overtime required to keep up with the deregulated trading hours. You've also avoided the issue of salaried workers 


noco said:


> There was no leave loading on annual leave ...we now have 17.5% added.



.... at the expense of the higher pay rises of the past.


noco said:


> There no superannuation scheme...Employers now are compelled to fork out 9.5%



As above. Payrises are a fraction of what they were 10, 20, 30 years ago.
Workers are buying their leave loading and super through low payrises.


noco said:


> We now have 6 months full paid maternity leave.



Not paid for by the employer. As opposed to the Tony Abbott scheme of taxing business for an over generous PPL system.


noco said:


> Overtime penalty rates were time and a half on Saturday morning and double time on Saturday



Which is what the electorate voted for prior to, and in 2007. Most people don't agree with this silly idea of turning every day of the week into a Monday 


noco said:


> Overtime penalty rates were time and a half on Saturday morning and double time on Saturday afternoon and Sundays...There no triple time on public holidays.



And over the years since these conditions were added, our unemployment went from double figures to less than half today despite the GFC fallout. Now what was your point again? 


noco said:


> The communist dominated unions were constantly creating strikes over trivial matters.



Which hasn't been in place for 10 years. Strikes are only allowed during EBA negotiations which is what? Once every 2 or 3 years? Can't see the sky falling in.



noco said:


> From the way you write with your aggressive socialist rhetoric, one would have to believe you are young and naive as to comparisons of current working conditions to that of the 40's. 50's and 60's...Perhaps you were not even born then.



A pointless, inaccurate statement. Aggressive says a lot more about your posting style than mine. I will address you the same way you address me so it's your choice as to how polite you want to be.

Oooh look, a smiley >


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2016)

noco said:


> ...and one can't complain about the quality.....




One certainly can complain about the quality, they are designed to wear out asap so you need to buy more. This applies to most manufactured goods from China.


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## noco (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> I would rather have food on the table - like most workers. I would also like to have fair family time - like most workers. Trading away family time for work has to be fair. Reducing wages for workers who currently work on weekends for the sole purpose of opening weekends obviously isn't fair on the worker.
> 
> There's never been a truer word spoken when you say we're living in a changed world. Over the last 30 years workers have lost many of their rights and allowances thanks to both sides of politics shifting to the right.  It's now a far more capitalistic society, so why would I care if a business opens or closes on a Sunday? That's their choice. As previously mentioned, if your boss can make money by pulling you away from family time on a public holiday you should be compensated for it. If you have a problem with penalty rates, employ your workers on a salary. A no brainer really.
> 
> ...




It is a shame you have a one track left wing socialistic mind and nothing will change or convince you as to the point I have been trying to make so I am afraid we will just to agree to disagree without further discussion on the matter.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

I'm more interested in the topic and irrespective of what I say, Shorten will get the job by default as this Coalition Govt continues to disintegrate. Does that make him PM material? Probably not.



noco said:


> It is a shame you have a one track left wing socialistic mind and nothing will change or convince you as to the point I have been trying to make so I am afraid we will just to agree to disagree without further discussion on the matter.



Smart move on your part noco. If this debate requires a balanced constructive argument I reckon you'll be struggling to post anything at all. 

You're better off just sticking to the anti Shorten articles ad nauseam; here, let me get you started > http://www.theage.com.au/national/i...-alleged-vandalism-spree-20161228-gtisp6.html


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## noco (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> I'm more interested in the topic and irrespective of what I say, Shorten will get the job by default as this Coalition Govt continues to disintegrate. Does that make him PM material? Probably not.
> 
> 
> Smart move on your part noco. If this debate requires a balanced constructive argument I reckon you'll be struggling to post anything at all.
> ...




You are a good troll like Tisme and Rumpole...You are all experts at character assassination under the strick rules of good old Fabians and only believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.....Good luck with your socialist propaganda but you see there is a change  coming and you will not like it.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

Thread's not about me, princess. It's about Bill Shorten. Read your browser header.
By the way, I don't believe you. Especially that bit about "phone call from Bill Shorten" stuff.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/is-shorten-pm-material.24690/page-36#post-924608


noco said:


> You are a good troll like Tisme and Rumpole...



OK so you disagree with my opinion but then stake your credibility on calling me a troll?
You're making yourself look immature noco. Try something more intelligent, if you can.


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> OK so you disagree with my opinion but then stake your credibility on calling me a troll?
> You're making yourself look immature noco. Try something more intelligent, if you can.




I wouldn't worry about noco calling you a troll. A lot of people here think he is a troll extraordinaire.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't worry about noco calling you a troll. A lot of people here think he is a troll extraordinaire.



Lol. Not worried at all. Just enjoying watching his online self destruction.

I posted a link to an anti Shorten article released today and I get called a troll. Funny stuff


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## Miner (29 December 2016)

Let me reword the question to have some intersting brickbats - does labour team in its current form deserve to rule the country ???


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2016)

Miner said:


> Let me reword the question to have some intersting brickbats - does labour team in its current form deserve to rule the country ???




Well, it's always a matter of the "least worst" option. Labor has some good policies in regard to housing affordability and they won't waste money with a useless business tax cut, so toss the coin.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

My view is... no. No party deserves to win. They have to earn it.


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## SirRumpole (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> My view is... no. No party deserves to win. They have to earn it.




Very few political parties "win" from Opposition, governments lose because they have generally stuffed things up in one way or another.


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## noco (29 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it's always a matter of the "least worst" option. Labor has some good policies in regard to housing affordability and they won't waste money with a useless business tax cut, so toss the coin.




No, they only waste money on over priced school halls, pink bats, $900 Dudd cheques, cash for clunkers, fuel watch and food watch.....Add to that the Mineral resources tax which Swannie introduced to fund the NDIS and Gonski......Cost more to administer than the inflow.

Don't get me wrong, I am far from happy with the Turnbull Government and even less happy about Shorten....They are both a pair of dingbats IMHO.


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## noco (29 December 2016)

PZ99 said:


> Thread's not about me, princess. It's about Bill Shorten. Read your browser header.
> By the way, I don't believe you. Especially that bit about "phone call from Bill Shorten" stuff.
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/is-shorten-pm-material.24690/page-36#post-924608
> 
> ...




Maybe I wrong  but from what I believe is you are an old AFS member under a different screen name.....You certainly know the ropes about trolling and the link below describes you to a "T".

Yes and I know it is off topic so you don't have to tell me.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

*The *art* of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the *internet*, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help. 
Trolling requires deceiving; any trolling that doesn't involve deceiving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccessful troll.*


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

noco said:


> Maybe I wrong and I don't know who you are ...



That's all you needed to say really, because the rest of your post is a load of garbage.

As for trolling, I've had considerable experience dealing with trolls on the internet. They all do the same thing - particularly the political trolls. They continually spam multiple threads with the same BS and then try to demean anyone who doesn't agree with it. Bill Shorten has multiple failures within his party and policies and over the next two years they will surface and I'll post my opinion then while you continue with your prepubescent name calling. Never heard of AFS and don't care and I care even less about becoming an agent for your self induced rage.


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## PZ99 (29 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Very few political parties "win" from Opposition, governments lose because they have generally stuffed things up in one way or another.



Yes I agree. It's been a while since we've had a vote based on ideology as opposed to incompetent / corrupt / dysfunctional Govts. Alas... I don't expect any improvement soon.


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## noco (11 January 2017)

How has Bill Shorten got away with so much?

https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.co...ltery-and-rape-to-name-a-few-should-he-be-pm/


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2017)

noco said:


> How has Bill Shorten got away with so much?
> 
> https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.co...ltery-and-rape-to-name-a-few-should-he-be-pm/




So why isn't he in gaol ?

Give it a rest noco, even the biased Union Royal Commission didn't lay a glove on Shorten, didn't lay any charges. Anyone can make a rape "allegation" , it was investigated and dismissed.

I suggest you leave this garbage where it belongs, in the bin.


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## Tisme (11 January 2017)

noco said:


> How has Bill Shorten got away with so much?
> 
> https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.co...ltery-and-rape-to-name-a-few-should-he-be-pm/




Trashy troll  post


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## noco (11 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So why isn't he in gaol ?
> 
> Give it a rest noco, even the biased Union Royal Commission didn't lay a glove on Shorten, didn't lay any charges. Anyone can make a rape "allegation" , it was investigated and dismissed.
> 
> I suggest you leave this garbage where it belongs, in the bin.




Wow...I have got you angry.......Rumpy sometimes the truth hurts which is something that gets up your nostrils.

What about the $40,000 he stole and  didn't declare it until 8 years later?

What about the wages he stole from the workers at Cleanevent and Chiquita in return for union blood money.

What about the dirty deal  he did with Thiess/John Holland?

The adultery and rape cases?.....Nothing like a bit pay back to keep those girlies quiet.

How he got away with so much no one really knows.


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2017)

noco said:


> How he got away with so much no one really knows.




Maybe he didn't get away with anything and it's all in the imaginations of his accusers (like you).

WHY DIDN'T ABBOTT'S ROYAL COMMISSION PUT SHORTEN IN GAOL ?

There is nothing there, face it. You are trolling again.


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## noco (11 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe he didn't get away with anything and it's all in the imaginations of his accusers (like you).
> 
> WHY DIDN'T ABBOTT'S ROYAL COMMISSION PUT SHORTEN IN GAOL ?
> 
> There is nothing there, face it. You are trolling again.




Rumpy how can you deny that most of it is not true ?


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## sptrawler (11 January 2017)

As with the Turnbull Government thread, what is being discussed that is current, or in anyway showing a way to a brighter future? Nothing.
Shorten just another sad wannabe, like Turnbull, wants to be everyone's friend a good guy with nothing but good news.
Jeez we really are in a sad state, going backwards at a rate of knots, and not a captain to be found.


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## noco (12 January 2017)

sptrawler said:


> As with the Turnbull Government thread, what is being discussed that is current, or in anyway showing a way to a brighter future? Nothing.
> Shorten just another sad wannabe, like Turnbull, wants to be everyone's friend a good guy with nothing but good news.
> Jeez we really are in a sad state, going backwards at a rate of knots, and not a captain to be found.



SP...you are a man after my own heart...I still say Turnbull and Shorten are on the same wave link and that is road to Socialism.


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## Tisme (12 January 2017)

sptrawler said:


> As with the Turnbull Government thread, what is being discussed that is current, or in anyway showing a way to a brighter future? Nothing.
> Shorten just another sad wannabe, like Turnbull, wants to be everyone's friend a good guy with nothing but good news.
> Jeez we really are in a sad state, going backwards at a rate of knots, and not a captain to be found.




I think you'll be waiting a long time of you think someone with ubiquitous national leadership ability will emerge. Inspirational captains usually have a wisdom of intensive experience which makes them less inclined to delegate core responsibilities and policy....... they are across the important stuff and dismiss the purile .... something Abbott and Turnbull can't do because they played to electors who are are purile by nature. Shorten is a great negotiator, but he lacks displayable passion for leading us out of the doldrums.


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## noco (12 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think you'll be waiting a long time of you think someone with ubiquitous national leadership ability will emerge. Inspirational captains usually have a wisdom of intensive experience which makes them less inclined to delegate core responsibilities and policy....... they are across the important stuff and dismiss the purile .... something Abbott and Turnbull can't do because they played to electors who are are purile by nature. Shorten is a great negotiator, but he lacks displayable passion for leading us out of the doldrums.




Shorten is only interested in power...Shorten cares bugger all about the National interest.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> Shorten is only interested in power...Shorten cares bugger all about the National interest.




As opposed to ..... ?


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> How has Bill Shorten got away with so much?
> 
> https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.co...ltery-and-rape-to-name-a-few-should-he-be-pm/



Adultery and rape: obviously you can prove your claims given you're pretending these allegations are fact 



noco said:


> Shorten is only interested in power...Shorten cares bugger all about the National interest.



Agreed. However it says more about Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull than Bill Shorten.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As opposed to ..... ?




I don't know you tell me.....Turnbull is just as bad if that is what you are referring to....Turnbull is tarred with the same brush as Shorten.

Turnbull is more socialist than a true Liberal Conservative.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Adultery and rape: obviously you can prove your claims given you're pretending these allegations are fact
> 
> 
> Agreed. However it says more about Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull than Bill Shorten.




It is not up to me to prove anything.....Those are the claims by the Kangaroo Court...I am only the messenger.

With regards to the rape case I understand the girl in question tried to make a civil case out of it...Whether it is still alive, I have no idea....Maybe Bill paid her off with union money.


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> It is not up to me to prove anything.....Those are the claims by the Kangaroo Court...I am only the messenger.



No. You are a commentator that is stating unproven opinion as fact. That rape case was done to death the moment Shorten became leader 3 years ago.



noco said:


> With regards to the rape case I understand the girl in question tried to make a civil case out of it...Whether it is still alive, I have no idea....Maybe Bill paid her off with union money.



Maybe he didn't.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> No. You are a commentator that is stating unproven opinion as fact. That rape case was done to death the moment Shorten became leader 3 years ago.
> 
> 
> Maybe he didn't.




Mate, how many times do I have to tell you before it sinks in, I am not the commentator, I am only the messenger.
I also understand you will go out of your way to protect your beloved Labor left wing Fabian Socialist.


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> Mate, how many times do I have to tell you before it sinks in, I am not the commentator, I am only the messenger.
> I also understand you will go out of your way to protect your beloved Labor left wing Fabian Socialist.



Then your understanding has its limits. A messenger receives a message and passes it on. You are simply copying and pasting a 6 month old article of someone else's opinion. Why would you sit on a "message" for 6 months?

You also appear to have put yourself in a climate of hysteria again


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 January 2017)

My contacts in Sussex St. tell me that Albo is still waiting in the wings if a tram runs over Bill Shorten. The latter is safe for the moment.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 January 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My contacts in Sussex St. tell me that Albo is still waiting in the wings if a tram runs over Bill Shorten. The latter is safe for the moment.




Albo had better be ready. The last thing we want is Tanya. Even though she does give a good interview we would be flooded with refugees and gay adoption clinics if she gets in.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Then your understanding has its limits. A messenger receives a message and passes it on. You are simply copying and pasting a 6 month old article of someone else's opinion. Why would you sit on a "message" for 6 months?
> 
> You also appear to have put yourself in a climate of hysteria again




I did not sit on it for 6 months and that is where you are wrong.

If it is good enough for you Fabians to keep hounded the likes of Susan Ley and Brownwyn Bishop, then it is good enough to bring Bill Shorten's dirty deals to the surface.....You can't have it all your own way.....The sooner you get that into your head the better understanding you will have....There is rort going on, on both sides of politics and all should be brought to justice.

VOTE 1 PAULINE HANSON who has promised to do something about it.


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> I did not sit on it for 6 months and that is where you are wrong.



So what did you do with it? Make a paper airplane?



noco said:


> If it is good enough for you Fabians to keep hounded the likes of Susan Ley and Brownwyn Bishop



That is where you are wrong. I made no comment about Sussan Ley and Bronwyn Bishop.



noco said:


> , then it is good enough to bring Bill Shorten's dirty deals to the surface.....You can't have it all your own way



Sounds like a load of boo-hoo to me.


noco said:


> .....The sooner you get that into your head the better understanding you will have....



More boo-hoo.



noco said:


> There is rort going on, on both sides of politics and all should be brought to justice.



You are clearly trying to deflect everyone away from your earlier myopically right wing elitist comments that Bill Shorten was some kind of rapo dude.



noco said:


> VOTE 1 PAULINE HANSON who has promised to do something about it.



And that's where you've destroyed all your credibility. Pauline Hanson was falsely accused of rorting the electoral system and did bird for it. Your accusations about Shorten are just as false unless you have proof and clearly you don't.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> So what did you do with it? Make a paper airplane?
> 
> 
> That is where you are wrong. I made no comment about Susan Ley and Brownwyn Bishop.
> ...




And Pauline Hanson was acquitted or have you got a short memory?..Falsely accused...She only served 11 weeks.

Boo Hoo rhetoric is one which would be expected from a Fabian supporter...How weak and non entertaining.....Time to grow up.

Where did I accuse you of making comments about Ley and Bishop?.....I was speaking in general terms.....Read it again and again until you absorb what it means.

*And that's where you've destroyed all your credibility....Once *again a simple term by a Fabian to discredt a worthy opponent.....Play the ball and not the man FFS.


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> And Pauline Hanson was acquitted or have you got a short memory?..Falsely accused...She only served 11 weeks.



Pity you can't read. I said she was falsely accused. You've just said the same thing I did.



noco said:


> Boo Hoo rhetoric is one which would be expected from a Fabian supporter...How weak and non entertaining.....Time to grow up.



More boo-hoo.



noco said:


> Where did I accuse you of making comments about Ley and Bishop?.....I was speaking in general terms



Bull you did. Read your previous boo hoo comments - if you can.
"*you* Fabians" "*You* can't have it all *your* own way" "If it is good enough for *you Fabians* to keep hounded the likes of Susan Ley and Brownwyn Bishop"



noco said:


> *And that's where you've destroyed all your credibility....Once *again a simple term by a Fabian to discredt a worthy opponent.....Play the ball and not the man FFS.



I don't play the man - I have a different opinion to you. But you are too childish to tag yourself as a worthy opponent and that's why you get discredited as such. You can start by ditching the "Fabian" tag with the majority of your replies because it says nothing about me and everything about your rather strange paranoia.

I'm more than happy for you to hypocritically call me an ex AFS troll with a one track left wing socialistic mind and fabian values (your words) but as you've never met me I'd say you have NFI.

My point is... you are posting what could best be described as a false allegation disguised as fact that Bill Shorten was a rapist. I'm interested in the claim because I think it's BS. However if you can prove your little fairytale then feel free to post it here. Otherwise, why bother wasting your time and mine?


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Pity you can't read. I said she was falsely accused. You've just said the same thing I did.
> 
> 
> More boo-hoo.
> ...




Once again my dear friend the mention of Fabians was a general term to describe the Green/Labor left wing socialists and I will keep on pounding that term so as many people as possible realize what is going on in the Labor Party.

Do you disagree with me that Bill Shorten is a Fabian (Communist)

Here is some more for you to digest about Bill Shorten with his nose in the trough.

Shorten outspent Turnbull three to one on family travel during election

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten with his family. Picture: Kym Smith
The Australian12:00AM January 12, 2017
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94
RACHEL BAXENDALE
ReporterCanberra
@rachelbaxendale

*Taxpayers paid more for Bill Shorten’s family to travel with him in the lead-up to last year’s election than they spent on the family travel of Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott in the last three elections combined.

 The Opposition Leader’s claim of $51,531 for the six months to June 2016 compares with $14,441 for the Prime Minister during the same period, $14,337 for Tony Abbott in the second half of 2010 and $11,080 for Abbott in the second half of 2010.

 Kevin Rudd claimed $20,435 in the period surrounding the 2013 election, while Julia Gillard claimed $13,439 in the second half of 2010.

 The Labor total of $89,405 compares with a Coalition spend of $39,858.

 The analysis comes as government sources indicate Malcolm Turnbull could receive the findings of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet’s investigation into sidelined Health Minister Sussan Ley’s travel claims as soon as tomorrow.

 Ms Ley’s position is widely seen as untenable by Coalition colleagues, despite her claim when she stood aside on Monday that she expected to resume her ministerial duties.

 The investigation into her travel claims was sparked by her impulse purchase of a $795,000 investment property on the Gold Coast during a taxpayer-funded trip.

 It has since emerged that Ms Ley spent the same number of taxpayer-funded nights on the Gold Coast as she did in Perth, Adelaide and Hobart combined, and that she charged taxpayers $13,000 to travel in two charter planes along busy commercial routes.

 The controversy over expense claims has also spread to several of Ms Ley’s cabinet colleagues, including Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, who charged taxpayers $2716 to attend the Portsea Polo for “official business”.

 Finance Minister Mathias Cormann, whose department oversees politicians’ entitlements, claimed $3533 for airfares to attend the 2013 AFL Grand Final with his wife.

 Peter Dutton, George Brandis and Mitch Fifield were also caught billing the taxpayer for travel associated with Malcolm Turnbull’s 2015 New Year’s Eve event.

 Disgraced former Speaker Peter Slipper, who was prosecuted for charging the taxpayer for cabs to Canberra wineries, tweeted yesterday that others should get the same treatment he did.

 “Every MP and senator should be subjected to the same forensic examination I was. I bet the results would be interesting,” Mr Slipper said.

 A spokesman for Mr Shorten said all of his family travel claims were declared and undertaken within the rules.

 Mr Shorten’s three children, Rupert, Georgette and Clementine — who were aged 15, 13 and seven during the campaign — are significantly younger than those of his counterparts, making it much more difficult for wife Chloe to join him without them.

 Mr Abbott’s daughters Louise, Frances and Bridget were 24, 21 and 20 in 2013, and 21, 18 and 17 in 2010, while Mr Rudd’s children Jessica, Nicholas and Marcus were 29, 24 and 20 in 2013, and Mr Turnbull’s children Alex and Daisy are in their early 30s.

 Prime ministers get access to a VIP plane and this privilege is extended to opposition leaders during election campaigns.
*





Shorten family bill triple PM’s
*Taxpayers paid more for Bill Shorten’s family to travel with him in the lead-up to last year’s election than they spent on the family travel of Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott in the last three elections combined.
at.theaustralian.com.au*


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> Once again my dear friend the mention of Fabians was a general term to describe the Green/Labor left wing socialists and I will keep on pounding that term so as many people as possible realize what is going on in the Labor Party.



That's fine - as long as you don't use it to describe me yeah?



noco said:


> Do you disagree with me that Bill Shorten is a Fabian (Communist)



Partly. He's a member of that obscure group but is a right winger leading a centre-left party. That's why his personal ratings are crap. Turnbull has similar issues. Maybe they could swap places 



noco said:


> Here is some more for you to digest about Bill Shorten with his nose in the trough.
> Shorten outspent Turnbull three to one on family travel during election



I reckon just about everyone outspent Turnbull on family travel.

Good article... if a little short on detail. It doesn't show a breakdown of family time versus work expenses other than a claim that everything was done by the rules. Everything should be made public by all pollies. We pay for it.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Partly. He's a member of that obscure group but is a right winger leading a centre-left party. That's why his personal ratings are crap. Turnbull has similar issues. Maybe they could swap places
> How can Shorten only be partly a Fabian?....He is a full blown member of the Fabians (Marxist)
> 
> Good article... if a little short on detail. It doesn't show a breakdown of family time versus work expenses other than a claim that everything was done by the rules. Everything should be made public by all pollies. We pay for it.




How can Shorten only be partly Fabian?.......He is a full blown member of the Fabians .(Marxist)

See the list below which posted a couple of weeks ago.

http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> That's fine - as long as you don't use it to describe me yeah?
> 
> 
> Partly. He's a member of that obscure group but is a right winger leading a centre-left party. That's why his personal ratings are crap. Turnbull has similar issues. Maybe they could swap places
> ...




How can he only be a partly Fabian (Marxist)?

He is a full blown Fabian as per the list below.

http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> How can he only be a partly Fabian (Marxist)?
> 
> He is a full blown Fabian as per the list below.
> 
> http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/



Easy. Welcome to the 21st century where Shorten, like all other aspirant leaders will shift their position solely to gain political mileage 

Paul Keating is on that list but is a neo-liberalist exemplified by floating the dollar, reduction of tariffs, reducing union power, proposing a GST (then opposing it - see my first sentence), and privatising CBA amongst other "third way" polices. Not really what you'd call fabian values.

Bill Shorten is even further right than that. 3 examples. ETS is market based carbon pricing as opposed to Govt Tax (carbon tax). Their current asylum seeker policy is boat turn backs (the lefties hated that) and their IR laws are closer to Workchoices than any previous ALP policy.

If Shorten really is a fabian he's not a very good one. Along with Hawke/Keating he's about the most right wing Labor leader we've ever had and that's why he's not popular with the electorate.

The "u" went away from Labor decades ago. They are almost as Liberal as the Liberals.


----------



## overhang (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> How can he only be a partly Fabian (Marxist)?
> 
> He is a full blown Fabian as per the list below.
> 
> http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/





You continue to use Fabian in a derogatory manner which I understand as you clearly have a fascist ideology.  But I think most people both left and right of center would agree that society functions best with both capitalist and socialist elements, we need the capitalist economy to maximize productivity and efficiency and we need the socialist aspect to provide an adequate safety net for all.  It's a delicate task finding a balance between the two economic systems and quite easy to extend too far in one direction but overall Australia does a good job overall of finding that balance.


----------



## noco (12 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Easy. Welcome to the 21st century where Shorten, like all other aspirant leaders will shift their position solely to gain political mileage
> 
> Paul Keating is on that list but is a neo-liberalist exemplified by floating the dollar, reduction of tariffs, reducing union power, proposing a GST (then opposing it - see my first sentence), and privatising CBA amongst other "third way" polices. Not really what you'd call fabian values.
> 
> ...




You are  either a Fabian or your are not a Fabian...There is no in between...Fabians are wolves in sheep's clothing...That is their motto...They keep chipping away with their socialist agenda as we have witnessed.

Do check out the link below which I have posted before to confirm what Fabians really stand for.

Labor almost Liberal as the Liberals???.......I would say Turnbull is more like the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/


----------



## PZ99 (12 January 2017)

noco said:


> You are  either a Fabian or your are not a Fabian...There is no in between...Fabians are wolves in sheep's clothing...That is their motto...They keep chipping away with their socialist agenda as we have witnessed.
> 
> Do check out the link below which I have posted before to confirm what Fabians really stand for.
> 
> ...



Link doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm blocked. LOL

If it's compulsory to take a choice of absolutes I'd say Shorten can't be fabianist - not with his current ideology. I describe him as a neo liberalist. Socialist websites regularly condemn Labor's polices. Shorten is a member of the Labor right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Right#Federal_Members_of_the_Labor_Right

Further reading: 


> A new "super-faction" that unites most of the Victorian Labor Right has been formed, boosting opposition leader Bill Shorten's factional clout and isolating a rump of MPs aligned with the shop assistants' union, including Deputy Premier James Merlino and federal power broker David Feeney.
> 
> The recent formation of the "Centre Unity" faction effectively hands control of the party's influential public office selection committee to a handful of power brokers, including Mr Shorten, his Right faction ally Senator Stephen Conroy and the Left's Senator Kim Carr under the terms of a "stability agreement".



http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...luence-on-labor-party-machine-20150421-1mpqte


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Link doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm blocked. LOL
> 
> If it's compulsory to take a choice of absolutes I'd say Shorten can't be fabianist - not with his current ideology. I describe him as a neo liberalist. Socialist websites regularly condemn Labor's polices. Shorten is a member of the Labor right.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Right#Federal_Members_of_the_Labor_Right
> ...




The Fabians and PM Gillard

Opinion, Politics

by
The Fabian Society logo shows plainly what the Fabians consider themselves to be

*The Fabian Society logo shows plainly what the Fabians consider themselves to be

PM Gillard is a member of the Fabian Society in Australia. There is no denying this fact. She has stated it herself…and we know she never lies.

But what is the Fabian Society?

Over the past 120 years, Fabian Society members have been almost singularly responsible for creating Communism in Soviet Russia and Communist China, Fascism in Italy and Germany, and socialism generally throughout the world.

The Fabian Society is a British socialist organization whose purpose is to advance the principles of democratic socialism via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary, means.

It is best known for its initial ground-breaking work beginning late in the 19th century and continuing up to World War I. The society laid many of the foundations of the Labor Party and subsequently affected the policies of states emerging from the decolonisation of the British Empire, especially India.

Today, the society functions primarily as a think tank and is one of 15 socialist societies affiliated with the Labor Party. Similar societies exist in Australia (the Australian Fabian Society), Canada (the Douglas-Coldwell Foundation and the now disbanded League for Social Reconstruction) and in New Zealand.

Since its foundation in 1884, the Fabian Society has been a home for some of the most important thinkers on the left. It has counted Rupert Brooke, Oscar Wilde, Emmeline Pankhurst, Ernest Bevin, Muhammad Ali Jinnah among its famous members.

Every UK Labor Prime Minister, from Ramsay MacDonald to Tony Blair, and Gordon Brown, has been a member of the Society. Today, well over 200 parliamentarians are members and the Fabian Society continues to be at the heart of the Labor movement.

There is no real difference between Fabianism and Leninist Communism. Both their goals are to impose collectivism. Communism sought to impose collectivism using overwhelming force. We have seen how that failed.

The Fabianists believe in achieving their aims by stealth. They were opposed to the vio*lent revolutions in Russia and China. Instead, they prefer to infiltrate into positions of power and then go about implementing their socialist agenda step by step. They operate so stealthily and operate so slowly, chipping away at the very fabric of society little by little, that most people don’t even notice they have lost their freedom until it is too late. At the same time, the Fabianists are extremely skilled at manipulating public opinion using emotive causes that sound so attractive that most people miss the sinister purpose behind them.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> The Fabians and PM Gillard




PM Gillard ? Have you been asleep for the last 4 years ?

If I quoted slabs from a Socialist newspaper you would have a go at me, so kindly take your Facist trash and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

That article was obviously a biased opinion based on fear and sensationalism. But that's OK, most articles are. I bet that was written by Mike Holt > former QLD One Nation candidate > a far right wing party 

The "reds under the bed" scare campaign died out 35 years ago. People have moved on.
Every Govt we've had since then was put there using the democratic process, as it should be.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> PM Gillard ? Have you been asleep for the last 4 years ?
> 
> If I quoted slabs from a Socialist newspaper you would have a go at me, so kindly take your Facist trash and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.




Gillard was irrelevant in that link...The theme was the emphasis om Fabianism.

*There is no real difference between Fabianism and Leninist Communism. Both their goals are to impose collectivism. Communism sought to impose collectivism using overwhelming force. We have seen how that failed.*

Take your blinkers off Rumpy.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Link doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm blocked. LOL
> 
> If it's compulsory to take a choice of absolutes I'd say Shorten can't be fabianist - not with his current ideology. I describe him as a neo liberalist. Socialist websites regularly condemn Labor's polices. Shorten is a member of the Labor right.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Right#Federal_Members_of_the_Labor_Right
> ...




Shorten is a full blown Fabian.

You obviously did not read the full list so I will post it again just for you.

http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Shorten is a full blown Fabian.
> 
> You obviously did not read the full list so I will post it again just for you.
> 
> http://takebackaustralia.aussieblogs.com.au/2011/01/08/fabian-society-and-the-alp/



I did read the list. How else would I know that Paul Keating was on it if I didn't?

Shorten is a full blown Labor Right member as per the link I posted earlier


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I did read the list. How else would I know that Paul Keating was on it if I didn't?
> 
> Shorten is a full blown Labor Right member as per the link I posted earlier




Sorry, you can't have 2 bob each way.....Whether Shorten is left, right or centre......You can't set off a smoke screen to cover his tracks......Shorten is a Fabian FULL STOP.

There no difference between Fabianism and Leninist communism.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

overhang said:


> You continue to use Fabian in a derogatory manner which I understand as you clearly have a* fascist ideology*.  But I think most people both left and right of center would agree that society functions best with both capitalist and socialist elements, we need the capitalist economy to maximize productivity and efficiency and we need the socialist aspect to provide an adequate safety net for all.  It's a delicate task finding a balance between the two economic systems and quite easy to extend too far in one direction but overall Australia does a good job overall of finding that balance.




So how do you describe fascist ideology?
Or is that just the usual juvenile Fabian rhetoric to ridicule an opponent because you have nothing better to add.?


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Sorry, you can't have 2 bob each way.....



Actually, I can. And will. The facts support my viewpoint.


noco said:


> Whether Shorten is left, right or centre......You can't set off a smoke screen to cover his tracks......Shorten is a Fabian FULL STOP.



Smoke screening (or to keep on pounding that term as you put it) is to repeat your opinion over and over again until anyone who disagrees with it leaves the thread out of boredom or frustration. That strategy will fail 

Shorten is a full blown Labor Right member *.*


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Actually, I can. And will. The facts support my viewpoint.
> 
> Smoke screening (or to keep on pounding that term as you put it) is to repeat your opinion over and over again until anyone who disagrees with it leaves the thread out of boredom or frustration. That strategy will fail
> 
> Shorten is a full blown Labor Right member *.*


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

Good point.

BILL Shorten wants to restart debate on whether Labor should maintain its near-century-long commitment to democratic socialism and is open to removing the symbolic mission statement from the party’s constitution.
Although few inside Labor are prepared to call for Labor’s 1921 socialist objective to be abolished, former prime minister Paul Keating says it is no longer relevant. “It’s now such an anachronistic description of what we are or need to be as to not warrant any continuing attachment,” Mr Keating says in a new book. “Of course it should be abolished.”

The socialist objective describes Labor as “a democratic socialist party” and binds members to support “the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation ... in these fields”.
The Opposition Leader is welcoming debate as part of his plans to rebuild Labor. He has described it to colleagues as being “as useful as a 100-year-old street directory” and of little value in economic policymaking. Although Mr Shorten does not see abolishing the objective as a priority, and acknowledges there is a range of views inside the party, sources say he does not see it as relevant to the party’s future.

At a Fabian Society forum in Sydney tomorrow, opposition Treasury spokesman Chris Bowen will reiterate his call for the objective to be abolished. “It’s time to scrap the socialist objective and have a clear, concise and modern explanation of Labor’s governing philosophy,” Mr Bowen writes in his book Hearts and Minds. “We can’t expect the public to be clear about what Labor stands for if we are not clear about this ourselves."

“My starting point in any debate will be support for social democracy.”

In an interview for Rudd, Gillard and Beyond, Mr Shorten said he did not describe himself as a “classical socialist” and did not support state ownership of the means of production.

The current objective was adopted three decades after the party was founded. It has long been contested and open to interpretation. In 1951, Labor resolved to pursue it only “to the extent necessary”.

However, many on Labor’s Left are opposed. ALP national president Jenny McAlister, from the Left, told The Australian she did not support altering the party’s core objective. “We should always be open to refreshing our philosophy and approach.

The word “democratic” was added in 1957. A review in 1981 led to keeping the objective. Gough Whitlam, Bob Hawke and Kevin Rudd have also voiced support for the objective to be replaced.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...k=e9bbac719df9f4e81c3347abd9650d30-1484266526

That was in 2014. Labor have shifted even further to the right since then.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

Look, if anyone wants to leave this thread, as you say out of boredom, then that is their choice.
So if this all getting too much for you and are becoming  bored with it all, let yourself be the first to leave.

If you cannot accept the fact the Shorten is a full blown Fabian, that is your problem.

I might also take this opportunity to remind you Bill Shorten is a foundation member and past member of the board of GETUP....You have heard of GETUP?.....GETUP is the propaganda machine along with the ABC for the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabian coalition.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Good point.
> 
> BILL Shorten wants to restart debate on whether Labor should maintain its near-century-long commitment to democratic socialism and is open to removing the symbolic mission statement from the party’s constitution.
> Although few inside Labor are prepared to call for Labor’s 1921 socialist objective to be abolished, former prime minister Paul Keating says it is no longer relevant. “It’s now such an anachronistic description of what we are or need to be as to not warrant any continuing attachment,” Mr Keating says in a new book. “Of course it should be abolished.”
> ...




The Labor Party are all talk and no action...They have been talking about since the mid 80's but they are all too frightened to pursue it in case it splits the Labor Party down the middle. While you have the hard core left wing unions,  who control the Labor Party, there will be little chance of that happening.

You seem to have forgotten who bankrolls and controls the Labor Party.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Look, if anyone wants to leave this thread, as you say out of boredom, then that is their choice.
> So if this all getting too much for you and are becoming  bored with it all, let yourself be the first to leave.



I'm not going anywhere.


noco said:


> If you cannot accept the fact the Shorten is a full blown Fabian, that is your problem.



Actually, it's your problem. Because you are posting your opinion and pretending it to be a fact. It's a typical right wing elitist strategy.



noco said:


> I might also take this opportunity to remind you Bill Shorten is a foundation member and past member of the board of GETUP....You have heard of GETUP?.....GETUP is the propaganda machine along with the ABC for the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabian coalition.



Couldn't care less about GETUP. GETUP only happened because of John Howard's far right wing lunacy when he gained control of the senate. He was fired by the ABC. Lib cry babies have been attacking it ever since which is good because they are opening the door into their unhappy world.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> You seem to have forgotten who bankrolls and controls the Labor Party.




We know who bankrolls and controls the Liberals too.

That's why we keep alternating governments every couple of terms to keep the b@stards at least half honest.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> The Labor Party are all talk and no action...They have been talking about since the mid 80's but they are all too frightened to pursue it in case it splits the Labor Party down the middle. While you have the hard core left wing unions,  who control the Labor Party, there will be little chance of that happening.
> 
> You seem to have forgotten who bankrolls and controls the Labor Party.



Most of the hard core unions are actually right wing.

You seem to have forgotten who put Bill Shorten there in the first place.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I'm not going anywhere.
> 
> Actually, it's your problem. Because you are posting your opinion and pretending it to be a fact. It's a typical right wing elitist strategy.
> 
> ...




Why is it my problem when you are getting your knickers in a knot over factual information.

If you cannot hack the truth, then that is your problem not mine....If you are bored with all this, then have a choice.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Why is it my problem when you are getting your knickers in a knot over factual information.
> 
> If you cannot hack the truth, then that is your problem not mine....If you are bored with all this, then have a choice.



It's your problem because you are not posting factual information. You are posting an opinion.

You seem to have a problem understanding that alternative viewpoints are just as valid as yours.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Why is it my problem when you are getting your knickers in a knot over factual information.
> 
> If you cannot hack the truth, then that is your problem not mine....If you are bored with all this, then have a choice.




You are the one driving people away from this site with your meaningless diatribes, quoting opinions of people (like Larry Pickering) who are so far off the planet that they could open a moonbase.

This forum is for intelligent debate not just rants, please do us a favour and at least try to get some facts behind what you are saying or join a far Right Wing blog where you will feel at home.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are the one driving people away from this site with your meaningless diatribes, quoting opinions of people (like Larry Pickering) who are so far off the planet that they could open a moonbase.
> 
> This forum is for intelligent debate not just rants, please do us a favour and at least try to get some facts behind what you are saying or join a far Right Wing blog where you will feel at home.




My oh my you are getting angry and you are making it so clear to viewers on this site that you cannot stand the truth so once again you revert to the old Fabian method of character assassination and ridicule and it so juvenile to say the least.

Been driving people away???????????....There are plenty of viewers who are taking note....Follow the stats on the thread.

I have been quoting the facts about Bill Shorten being a little Fabian and you don't like it because it goes against your grain when I brand Shorten for what he is.
I feel sorry for you Rumpy.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> It's your problem because you are not posting factual information. You are posting an opinion.
> 
> You seem to have a problem understanding that alternative viewpoints are just as valid as yours.




You are talking through your hat.......I have given you the list of Labor  Fabians (Communists) and Bill Shorten is there...It is not an opinion....Sorry if you cannot accept that point....All the smoke screens you put up will not cover the facts  

There is an old saying, "IF IT IS TOO HOT IN THE KITCHEN THEN GET OUT".


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We know who bankrolls and controls the Liberals too.
> 
> That's why we keep alternating governments every couple of terms to keep the b@stards at least half honest.




So what is the problem with that...All donations are thankfully accepted.....The problem with the Labor Party is they are controlled by the unions...Even the CFMEU chief said "if Labor do not do what they want, they, the unions, will take over the Labor Party."


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> There is an old saying, "IF IT IS TOO HOT IN THE KITCHEN THEN GET OUT".



Told you before. I'm not going anywhere. Why are you shouting?


noco said:


> You are talking through your hat.......I have given you the list of Labor  Fabians (Communists) and Bill Shorten is there...



Yeah, yeah, yeah we've read all that prima donna.


noco said:


> It is not an opinion....



It's not even a fact. Membership of a group doesn't mean it controls everything you say and do unless you have a malleable mind. So while it might explain your own ignorance followed by arrogance it says nothing about a so-called fabianist member in the right wing faction of a party.


noco said:


> Sorry if you cannot accept that point....All the smoke screens you put up will not cover the facts



Most others will consider it to be an opposing opinion. If it looks like a smoke screen to you then either it's because it challenges your superiority complex or it's just beyond your comprehension.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Told you before. I'm not going anywhere. Why are you shouting?
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah we've read all that prima donna.
> 
> ...




Shouting????....It is because you are not listening.......I think you should also take the blinkers off and let the Sun shine in because you are not absorbing the truth about Billy Boy...The great Fabian.

Rumpy states I am driving  people away from  the forum.....I see you and he are still sticking around.

A good little Fabian must follow the rules no matter whether they are left, right or center.

Rumpy seems to be the one doing all the ranting and it is because he doesn't like what is thrown up at him about Comrade Shorten......

Don't ya just love it?

BTW..there have been 91 viewers since 9am this morning.......Driving them away???....I don't think so.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Shouting????....It is because you are not listening



Of course not. Why would I listen to biased diatribe?


noco said:


> .......I think you should also take the blinkers off and let the Sun shine in because you are not absorbing the truth about Billy Boy...The great Fabian.



I think you should change your attitude and have a more open mind. You are looking at one extreme or another. You can't find the middle ground.


noco said:


> Rumpy states I am driving  people away from  the forum.....I see you and he are still sticking around.



Because I'm not going anywhere.


noco said:


> A good little Fabian must follow the rules no matter whether they are left, right or center.
> Rumpy seems to be the one doing all the ranting and it is because he doesn't like what is thrown up at him about Comrade Shorten......
> Don't ya just love it?



Nothing to do with me.
My point all along is this:
Yes, Bill Shorten is a member of the fabians.
No, that doesn't mean he is a full blown fabian.
Why? Because he is a member of the Labor right.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Of course not. Why would I listen to biased diatribe?
> 
> I think you should change your attitude and have a more open mind. You are looking at one extreme or another. You can't the middle ground.
> 
> ...




So if you are not listening, why do keep coming back for more? ...Just switch off if that makes you feel better.

So why do I have to change my attitude when I know and have pointed out on several occasions the modus operadi of the Fabians?

You say you are not going anywhere and that is fine with me so long as you can withstand the heat.

BILL SHORTEN IS STILL A FABIAN....Of course he is a  full blown Fabian as are the rest of his comrades in the Green/Labor Party left wing socialist coalition no matter how hard you try cover for them.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

106 viewers since 9 am this morning......Plenty taking notice today on Bill Shorten...

Good to see that they are not leaving in droves like Rumpy said they would.

I have no doubt my message is getting through to a lot of people.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> 106 viewers since 9 am this morning......Plenty taking notice today on Bill Shorten...
> 
> Good to see that they are not leaving in droves like Rumpy said they would.
> 
> I have no doubt my message is getting through to a lot of people.




You mean the guy who is so hopeless that he came within a whisker of defeating your hallowed Conservatives at the last election ?

People couldn't care less if Shorten is a Fabian or not. Personally I think he's too far Right. He doesn't seem to care much about the power network being sold off to foreigners, but I'd certainly prefer him to the blanket privatisation of essential services favoured by the Libs. And that includes slicing off as much as Medicare as they can heading towards a US style of paying for private insurance or don't get treated.

So keep beating the Fabian drum if you want. People just don't care.


----------



## noco (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You mean the guy who is so hopeless that he came within a whisker of defeating your hallowed Conservatives at the last election ?
> 
> People couldn't care less if Shorten is a Fabian or not. Personally I think he's too far Right. He doesn't seem to care much about the power network being sold off to foreigners, but I'd certainly prefer him to the blanket privatisation of essential services favoured by the Libs. And that includes slicing off as much as Medicare as they can heading towards a US style of paying for private insurance or don't get treated.
> 
> So keep beating the Fabian drum if you want. People just don't care.




Yes..Comrade Shorten almost got over the line based on the greatest* LIE *of the century....Yes.... lest we forget....MEDISCARE.....Scaring the day lights out of the old and infirm....the vulnarable...What a low life!!!!

But surely he would not be so stupid as to use it at the next election.


----------



## Tisme (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You mean the guy who is so hopeless that he came within a whisker of defeating your hallowed Conservatives at the last election ?
> 
> People couldn't care less if Shorten is a Fabian or not. Personally I think he's too far Right. He doesn't seem to care much about the power network being sold off to foreigners, but I'd certainly prefer him to the blanket privatisation of essential services favoured by the Libs. And that includes slicing off as much as Medicare as they can heading towards a US style of paying for private insurance or don't get treated.
> 
> So keep beating the Fabian drum if you want. People just don't care.





The LNP will try to sell Medicare, only being outed by Labor during the last election gave it a stay of execution.... the Liberal Party has always opposed universal health care as some kind of grotesque stain on the human race.... my solution is to have all LNP voters off medicare and ineligible for any socialist benefits, the money going to pay down debt.


----------



## Tisme (13 January 2017)

Compare the responses by Malcolm and Bill to Rex Tillerson's war drums and Paul Keating's comments:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-state-nominees-comments-20170113-gtqy0k.html


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Compare the responses by Malcolm and Bill to Rex Tillerson's war drums and Paul Keating's comments:
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-state-nominees-comments-20170113-gtqy0k.html




Tillerson seems to be a loose cannon. As a former oil man he' seems to be eying off the oilfields off Malaysia.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> Scaring the day lights out of the old and infirm....the vulnarable...What a low life!!!!
> 
> .




Abbott and Hockey already did that with the $7 co-payment.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> So if you are not listening, why do keep coming back for more?



Because you make me laugh.


noco said:


> So why do I have to change my attitude when I know and have pointed out on several occasions the modus operadi of the Fabians?



Because your attitude is foul.
Because the modus operadi of the Fabians doesn't suit the Labor platform. They are no longer compatible.


noco said:


> You say you are not going anywhere and that is fine with me so long as you can withstand the heat.



I guarantee you'll lose your cool long before I do.


noco said:


> BILL SHORTEN IS STILL A FABIAN....Of course he is a  full blown Fabian as are the rest of his comrades in the Green/Labor Party left wing socialist coalition no matter how hard you try cover for them.



More erroneous dribble. I think I preferred it when you were angry.


noco said:


> ...Just switch off if that makes you feel better.



Not going anywhere kid. Are you really that naïve to think you can push people out of a thread you didn't even start?


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

noco said:


> 106 viewers since 9 am this morning......Plenty taking notice today on Bill Shorten...
> 
> Good to see that they are not leaving in droves like Rumpy said they would.
> 
> I have no doubt my message is getting through to a lot of people.



So in other words you are using someone else's forum as a free billboard to air your political hatred.

Sounds like a scabber to me.


----------



## PZ99 (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Abbott and Hockey already did that with the $7 co-payment.



Not to mention the pension age blowing out to 70 and a myriad of failed tax increases. They destroyed their political capital in record time and the best thing about that budget was that it both of them their jobs. 

Tony Abbott was the worst PM in history and as he and other right wing dingbats continue to undermine their own party in Govt they are making Shorten look like PM material.

Personally I find the idea of PM Shorten rather nauseating but watching the Coalition lose the next election will offset any disappointment for this black duck


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Abbott and Hockey already did that with the $7 co-payment.




$7 dollars would not have hurt anyone. ...A mere cup of coffee and a biscuit.

The Green/Labor left wing Fabian indoctrinated socialist coalition in the senate knocked it back purely on political grounds.

Juila Gillard's  Carbon tax hurt people far more than $7...You remember....

"THERE WILL BE NO CARBON TAX UNDER A GOVERNMENT I LEAD"

I just love rubbing your nose in that one.


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Because you make me laugh.
> 
> Because your attitude is foul.
> Because the modus operadi of the Fabians doesn't suit the Labor platform. They are no longer compatible.
> ...




Hey where did you get the idea I want to push people out of the thread?.....I am having too much fun to so don't leave please.

The Fabians are well and truly in charge of the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition...You just won't admit it....In your eyes it is all dribble and that is what one would come to expect....You just can't stand me exposing the modus operandi of the Green/Labor coalition...There is a political revolution coming......Stay tuned.


I have told you before...I don't get angry.

When anger arises, think of the consequences...Confucius.

Wow, I can see you did not like me posting that Fabian list....It must have got right up your gisset....I will post it again for you if you would like it....Maybe again in a few days time in case there are some new viewers.

Hey BTW, there has been 195 viewers since 9 am this morning...Lots of people are learning about the Fabians.


----------



## PZ99 (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> $7 dollars would not have hurt anyone. ...A mere cup of coffee and a biscuit.
> 
> The Green/Labor left wing Fabian indoctrinated socialist coalition in the senate knocked it back purely on political grounds.
> 
> ...



Try rubbing your own nose in it mate. I couldn't care less about Gillard.

You on the other hand seem to have some strange obsession with her.

Are you after her body or something?


----------



## PZ99 (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> Hey where did you get the idea I want to push people out of the thread?.....I am having too much fun to so don't leave please.
> 
> The Fabians are well and truly in charge of the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition...You just won't admit it....In your eyes it is all dribble and that is what one would come to expect....You just can't stand me exposing the modus operandi of the Green/Labor coalition...There is a political revolution coming......Stay tuned.
> 
> ...



Please continue posting your Fabian phobia. You've given yourself away as an a grade scabber.

195 viewers + myself are watching you make a complete goose of yourself by scabbing off this website.

Yes there is a political revolution coming...... your Liberal masters are disappearing up their own backsides.

You actually sound like a fabianist yourself because you want something for nothing.


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Try rubbing your own nose in it mate. I couldn't care less about Gillard.
> 
> You on the other hand seem to have some strange obsession with her.
> 
> Are you after her body or something?




You are sounding a bit queer this morning......Are you OK?.

BTW..I see an extra 60 viewers on this thread from 11pm last night to 9.30am this morning....Good to see so much interest in our comrade Bill Shorten.


----------



## PZ99 (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> You are sounding a bit queer this morning......Are you OK?.
> 
> BTW..I see an extra 60 viewers on this thread from 11pm last night to 9.30am this morning....Good to see so much interest in our comrade Bill Shorten.



Your comrade maybe. Not mine. The more people read your sand-in-skirt posts the more likely Shorten's popularity will actually increase. Your choice. I'm just helping you along a bit. Please continue


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Your comrade maybe. Not mine. The more people read your sand-in-skirt posts the more likely Shorten's popularity will actually increase. Your choice. I'm just helping you along a bit. Please continue




Well now that is a debatable point.....Billy is going to shoot himself in the foot sooner or later...

Garpul Gumnut seems to have some information on Comrade Shorten which is not looking too good  ATM....Albo is ready to pounce.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well now that is a debatable point.....Billy is going to shoot himself in the foot sooner or later...
> 
> Garpul Gumnut seems to have some information on Comrade Shorten which is not looking too good  ATM....Albo is ready to pounce.




No doubt if Albo does take over you will turn your vitriol on him and go on about his parentage and upbringing which would be typical of your debased character assassination.


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt if Albo does take over you will turn your vitriol on him and go on about his parentage and upbringing which would be typical of your debased character assassination.




Yes I did see something about Albo's past life and it was very sad....No Rumpy, I would never do that to some one  like Albo who lead a hard early life as it was not his fault.


----------



## Tisme (14 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt if Albo does take over you will turn your vitriol on him and go on about his parentage and upbringing which would be typical of your debased character assassination.




 Hardly need a crystal ball to know the left of Labor are gathering the numbers to make policy. Only NSW stands in the way now. As you have rightly pointed out prior, Shorten is a capitalist socialist, while Albo is a union socialist. I would doubt Albo would risk going back to the pre Whitlam days of perpetual in opposition, by standing against Bill without convincing the electorate he is all for Hawke/Keating economics and glasnost.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Hardly need a crystal ball to know the left of Labor are gathering the numbers to make policy. Only NSW stands in the way now. As you have rightly pointed out prior, Shorten is a capitalist socialist, while Albo is a union socialist. I would doubt Albo would risk going back to the pre Whitlam days of perpetual in opposition, by standing against Bill without convincing the electorate he is all for Hawke/Keating economics and glasnost.





I think you are right, which is probably the reason that Albo has been virtually invisible the last three years. 

Waiting for Bill to slip up , but in a way that he can't be accused of destabilsation.


----------



## PZ99 (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well now that is a debatable point.....Billy is going to shoot himself in the foot sooner or later...
> 
> Garpul Gumnut seems to have some information on Comrade Shorten which is not looking too good  ATM....Albo is ready to pounce.



Looking forward to seeing that info. I've seen some unofficial stuff that could nail him but not going to report it until it's undeniable. Can't be too careful these days.


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Looking forward to seeing that info. I've seen some unofficial stuff that could nail him but not going to report it until it's undeniable. Can't be too careful these days.




Wow....so you don't think comrade Bill is all he is cracked up to be......That is a shock coming from you.

This thread is certainly creating some interest.......195 viewers since 11 pm last night...Maybe they are waiting for something dramatic to happen as both you and GG know something is going on.......Does that mean the cat could be out of the bag any time soon?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> Does that mean the cat could be out of the bag any time soon?





Maybe this has something to do with it.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...pm-on-all-fronts-but-one-20161220-gteu19.html

But lets face it, if even someone as lacklustre as Bill could nearly win an election, doesn't that say something about Turnbull & the Libs ?


----------



## noco (14 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe this has something to do with it.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...pm-on-all-fronts-but-one-20161220-gteu19.html
> 
> But lets face it, if even someone as lacklustre as Bill could nearly win an election, doesn't that say something about Turnbull & the Libs ?




No it doesn't except the low way Shorten went about things.

I am certainly not happy with Turnbull....He has to go and go very soon.


----------



## PZ99 (14 January 2017)

noco said:


> Wow....so you don't think comrade Bill is all he is cracked up to be......That is a shock coming from you.



Do yourself a favour noco and scroll back through this thread and you'll see that I've criticised Bill Shorten at least 5 times. Maybe the reason you haven't seen them is because you were too busy attacking the posters rather than reading the posts.



noco said:


> This thread is certainly creating some interest.......195 viewers since 11 pm last night...Maybe they are waiting for something dramatic to happen as both you and GG know something is going on.......Does that mean the cat could be out of the bag any time soon?



What I read is very much speculation from several years ago. I suspect this other info is something else.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Do yourself a favour noco and scroll back through this thread and you'll see that I've criticised Bill Shorten at least 5 times. Maybe the reason you haven't seen them is because you were too busy attacking the posters rather than reading the posts.
> 
> 
> What I read is very much speculation from several years ago. I suspect this other info is something else.





PZ99...I did do the exercise and went back to when this thread started......Your first post is Dated 13/05/2015.

There was only post I could find where you criticized Comrade Bill which was post #744 about multi policy failures but those failures were most likely were the result of the various faction in the Labor Party rejecting them....So it really was not a slur by you of Bill Shorten.

Perhaps you could enlighten me of the other 4 occasions....You had plenty of praise for comrade Bill.

Perhaps you occupied too much of your time attacking me.

What I did find was some interesting posts where Bill sprouted fairness only to note where he dudded workers plenty of times.....Post  # 744 # 770 #645 #641 # 26 is a bottler...don't miss that one.


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> PZ99...I did do the exercise and went back to when this thread started......Your first post is Dated 13/05/2015.
> There was only post I could find where you criticized Comrade Bill which was post #744 about multi policy failures



Look harder.



noco said:


> Perhaps you could enlighten me of the other 4 occasions



Look harder.



noco said:


> Perhaps you occupied too much of your time attacking me.



Correction. Defending myself against your personal attacks.


noco said:


> but those failures were most likely were the result of the various faction in the Labor Party rejecting them....So it really was not a slur by you of Bill Shorten.



Nice bit of twisting to suit your argument. In any case it's BS. I was talking about Bill Shorten.
I've criticised Bill Shorten 5 or 6 times from Dec to yesterday. 5 of them in posts. 1 of them in external links. Links you clearly haven't read. Not my job to spoon feed you.

Look harder.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are the one driving people away from this site with your meaningless diatribes, quoting opinions of people (like Larry Pickering) who are so far off the planet that they could open a moonbase.
> 
> This forum is for intelligent debate not just rants, please do us a favour and at least try to get some facts behind what you are saying or join a far Right Wing blog where you will feel at home.




So you reckon I am still driving people away from this forum....
Wow......262 more viewers from 4 pm Saturday to 7.30 am Sunday this morning......That is just over night.....Looks like more people than ever are most interested.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> So you reckon I am still driving people away from this forum....
> Wow......262 more viewers from 4 pm Saturday to 7.30 am Sunday this morning......That is just over night.....Looks like more people than ever are most interested.




You haven't noticed that only about 5 people have recently posted to this thread ? How do you know if people are reading your posts or mine or PZ99's or Tisme's ?

There are always far more viewers than posters to any thread, which is a shame. A bit more diversity of opinion would help relieve the monotony of your confected rants.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You haven't noticed that only about 5 people have recently posted to this thread ? How do you know if people are reading your posts or mine or PZ99's or Tisme's ?
> 
> There are always far more viewers than posters to any thread, which is a shame. A bit more diversity of opinion would help relieve the monotony of your confected rants.




You just do not get my point.

You stated that I was driving people away from thread when in fact there are  more and more viewers.

Whether they are viewing your post, my post or someone else's post in irrelevant to your statement that was driving people away from this thread.......So why aren't there less viewers as you say?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> You just do not get my point.
> 
> You stated that I was driving people away from thread when in fact there are  more and more viewers.
> 
> Whether they are viewing your post, my post or someone else's post in irrelevant to your statement that was driving people away from this thread.......So why aren't there less viewers as you say?




As I said, viewers are not the same as posters. People are less likely to post a view contrary to yours because you will call them Fabians or Marxists or Commo traitors. Hence my point about the lack of contributors rather than viewers.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Look harder.
> 
> 
> Look harder.
> ...




Clever and cunning is your trait on this forum and you consistently try to pull over peoples eyes but it does not work with me.

You say  LOOK HARDER.

Now please state your 5 post numbers where you have been critical of Bill Shorten?...If you can do that, I am man enough to apologize.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said, viewers are not the same as posters. People are less likely to post a view contrary to yours because you will call them Fabians or Marxists or Commo traitors. Hence my point about the lack of contributors rather than viewers.




Very clever Rumpy.....So which ones have I been driving away from this thread?

POSTERS  or VIEWERS.

I realize I am outnumbered by the Socialists on this thread and I have coped plenty of character assassination, ridicule and intimidation but that is the least of my worries as I am used to it but I would say there are members who would be most interested in posting their POV but fear the same malicious treatment consistently  dealt out to me because I don't always agree with what you say.......So to dominate the thread, some of you will go out of your way to drive away a conservative POV by insinuation....Guess you can't blame them which is a shame....I am sure you would like to see me disappear from this thread because I am a thorn in your side....With me out of the way you have the whole thread to yourselves and continue to post your lies and propaganda in the true Fabian fashion.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> Very clever Rumpy.....So which ones have I been driving away from this thread?
> 
> POSTERS  or VIEWERS.




Lack of comprehension skills obviously.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Lack of comprehension skills obviously.




That is a strange answer.

How is comprehension skills applied to what we are talking about......I mentioned POSTERS or VIEWERS.

Comprehension......understanding : inclusion.


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> Clever and cunning is your trait on this forum and you consistently try to pull over peoples eyes but it does not work with me.



Idiotic statement that doesn't even make any sense.


noco said:


> You say  LOOK HARDER.



Exactly. So there goes your assertion as false.


noco said:


> Now please state your 5 post numbers where you have been critical of Bill Shorten?...If you can do that, I am man enough to apologize.



I don't need an apology. Just a bit of basic respect would be a good start.
You've already picked 744 and 824. So that's two.

733 (mild:_ "Shorten will get the job by default as this Coalition Govt continues to disintegrate. Does that make him PM material? Probably not."_)

733 (link: _"Close allies of Bill Shorten on multiple criminal charges for alleged vandalism spree"_) 

757 (mild - agreeing with your comment: "_Shorten is only interested in power...Shorten cares bugger all about the National interest_.")

770 (Indirect: _"is a right winger leading a centre-left party. That's why his personal ratings are crap."_ )

773 (mild: _"Welcome to the 21st century where Shorten, like all other aspirant leaders will shift their position solely to gain political mileage"_ )

812 (direct: _"Personally I find the idea of PM Shorten rather nauseating"_)

Pick your favourite remaining 3 from that list and bookmark it because over the next fortnight that number will increase to 10 overall.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Idiotic statement that doesn't even make any sense.
> 
> Exactly. So there goes your assertion as false.
> 
> ...




And yet your praising of Bill Shorten would out number your so called criticism 100 fold.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> Very clever Rumpy.....So which ones have I been driving away from this thread?
> 
> POSTERS  or VIEWERS.
> 
> I realize I am outnumbered by the Socialists on this thread and I have coped plenty of character assassination, ridicule and intimidation but that is the least of my worries as I am used to it but I would say there are members who would be most interested in posting their POV but fear the same malicious treatment consistently  dealt out to me because I don't always agree with what you say.......So to dominate the thread, some of you will go out of your way to drive away a conservative POV by insinuation....Guess you can't blame them which is a shame....I am sure you would like to see me disappear from this thread because I am a thorn in your side....With me out of the way you have the whole thread to yourselves and continue to post your lies and propaganda in the true Fabian fashion.




Hey Rumpy...another 143 viewers from 7.30 am to 9.30 am this morning.

So am I driving them away or attracting interest?


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> And yet your praising of Bill Shorten would out number your so called criticism 100 fold.



Considering my post count is 120 your arithmetic is almost as pathetic as your reading skills.

But feel free to prove your stupid assertion, if you can.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Considering my post count is 120 your arithmetic is almost as pathetic as your reading skills.
> 
> But feel free to prove your stupid assertion, if you can.




More trolling hey......You just cannot help yourself...I feel so sorry for you.


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> More trolling hey......You just cannot help yourself...I feel so sorry for you.



Trolling? For defending myself????? Phhht.

You are better off feeling sorry for yourself after your imbecilic behaviour in this thread.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Trolling? For defending myself????? Phhht.
> 
> You are better off feeling sorry for yourself after your imbecilic behaviour in this thread.




I thought Rumpole was bad enough with his ridicule and insinuations, but he is a gentleman compared to you.


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> I thought Rumpole was bad enough with his ridicule and insinuations, but he is a gentleman compared to you.



And I'm a gentleman compared to you. I'll speak to you the same way you speak to me


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> And I'm a gentleman compared to you. I'll speak to you the same way you speak to me




Really, well how about you take the initiative first and I will follow suit.....If I name Bill shorten as a Fabian or criticize the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition, you will now refrain from intimidation and ridicule....Is that the deal?


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> Really, well how about you take the initiative first and I will follow suit.....If I name Bill shorten as a Fabian or criticize the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition, you will now refrain from intimidation and ridicule....Is that the deal?



No. The deal is you post whatever you like about Shorten.
I will post what I like about Shorten.
No insults from you. No retaliation from me.
We shake hands here and now. Better deal for everyone.


----------



## Joe Blow (15 January 2017)

It's always a shame when these political threads are reduced to tit-for-tat personal attacks and accusations of trolling. It's been said many times in many ways: play the ball, not the man; attack the argument, not the person. Debate the issues all you like, but please don't make ad hominem attacks on others. Let's keep the discussion as constructive as possible.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> It's always a shame when these political threads are reduced to tit-for-tat personal attacks and accusations of trolling. It's been said many times in many ways: play the ball, not the man; attack the argument, not the person. Debate the issues all you like, but please don't make ad hominem attacks on others. Let's keep the discussion as constructive as possible.




Yes Joe I totally agree......unfortunately there are the odd ones who persist in character assassination and ridicule to gain dominance in a debate....If you disagree with their post, then the intimidation begins....If you put up actual facts, it is termed rubbish or what planet did you live on?


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> No. The deal is you post whatever you like about Shorten.
> I will post what I like about Shorten.
> No insults from you. No retaliation from me.
> We shake hands here and now. Better deal for everyone.




OK.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> It's always a shame when these political threads are reduced to tit-for-tat personal attacks and accusations of trolling. It's been said many times in many ways: play the ball, not the man; attack the argument, not the person. Debate the issues all you like, but please don't make ad hominem attacks on others. Let's keep the discussion as constructive as possible.




I wonder if it's possible to have a "dislike" button ? We may then get an idea of who is trolling.


----------



## Joe Blow (15 January 2017)

Sadly, I think a dislike button would only add to the negativity. The answer is to keep the discussion constructive and ignore those who refuse to engage in constructive debate.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Sadly, I think a dislike button would only add to the negativity. The answer is to keep the discussion constructive and ignore those who refuse to engage in constructive debate.




I think you are right. That's why you are the Boss.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Sadly, I think a dislike button would only add to the negativity. The answer is to keep the discussion constructive and ignore those who refuse to engage in constructive debate.



Joe, I am sure some would find that most difficult.......It is all about respect...If you don't give it, don't expect to  receive it


----------



## Joe Blow (15 January 2017)

I agree that respect is critical, as is having an open mind. I have many friends and family members who I disagree with politically but can still have a constructive discussion with. Constructive discussion and debate is all about having the right intentions;  to listen to other points of view with an open mind and then explaining why you believe the way you do. To both challenge others and to be challenged yourself and increase understanding on both sides.


----------



## moXJO (15 January 2017)

Yes back to intelligent debate please....
Shorten sucks.
In fact he sucks so much, I'm surprised the bedsheet doesn't vacuum up his ar$e when he goes to bed.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

moXJO said:


> Yes back to intelligent debate please....
> Shorten sucks.
> In fact he sucks so much, I'm surprised the bedsheet doesn't vacuum up his ar$e when he goes to bed.




Yes, a very intelligent post.  Would you care to tell us why you think Shorten sucks ?

Personally I find him overly smarmy and ingratiating but I think he's done a good job getting a seriously divided Party back to an election winning position. He obviously has behind the scenes negotiating abilities. 

I think he's a Right of centre politician who depends on the Left for survival which requires him to walk a tightrope on policy, in that respect he's in exactly the same position as Turnbull who is to the Left of his party but depends on the Right for survival. 

That makes Turnbull and Shorten equally insecure in their leadership and either or both could topple before the next election.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> I agree that respect is critical, as is having an open mind. I have many friends and family members who I disagree with politically but can still have a constructive discussion with. Constructive discussion and debate is all about having the right intentions;  to listen to other points of view with an open mind and then explaining why you believe the way you do. To both challenge others and to be challenged yourself and increase understanding on both sides.




Some times one is provoked and one provacation leads to another and that is when it can get out of hand...Joe, I would like to see you intervene at lot more.


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, a very intelligent post.  Would you care to tell us why you think Shorten sucks ?
> 
> Personally I find him overly smarmy and ingratiating but I think he's done a good job getting a seriously divided Party back to an election winning position. He obviously has behind the scenes negotiating abilities.
> 
> ...




Actually I would like to both of them go because neither are doing the right thing in the National interest....Di Natalie is just as bad if not worse...All of them have their snouts in the trough and rorting the system

If Turnbull told the people that he would tear up the Paris Climate change agreement, stop the immigration of Muslims and take a firm hand with them to integrate, accept  out laws and out way of life or leave Australia, ban the Burka  and stop this renewable energy madness and clean up retired MPS entitlements and perks , his popularity would rocket over night.

One only has to look at rise One Nation and it is really based on most of the above...Pauline Hanson and Cory Bernadi are the only two listening to what the people want.

The other two and a half major parties are only interested in vote catching...Cuddle up to the Muslims and the unions.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> If Turnbull told the people that he would tear up the Paris Climate change agreement, stop the immigration of Muslims and take a firm hand with them to integrate, accept out laws and out way of life or leave Australia, ban the Burka and stop this renewable energy madness and clean up retired MPS entitlements and perks , his popularity would rocket over night.




That's your opinion. I probably agree as far as Muslim immigration goes and certainly agree about perks, but climate change is real and we need to do something about it. Renewable energy in the form of solar PV has taken a lot of demand out of the system and people should be encouraged to take it up further. We should probably replace or modernise some of the old generator plants, but it doesn't necessarily have to be coal. Solar thermal would be ideal, mixed with combined cycle gas and hydro.

Trouble is Turnbull will never do this because he is a prisoner of the Right of his party with links to donations by coal companies.

If Turnbull moved to ban political donations by organisations, both business and unions he would increase his popularity massively. Sadly I don't think he will.


----------



## Joe Blow (15 January 2017)

noco said:


> Joe, I would like to see you intervene at lot more.




Of all the responsibilities I have as the administrator of ASF there is none I dislike more than intervening in political threads. I've moderated rampers on innumerable stock threads but I've never been accused of being anti-BHP because I moderated a ramp on the BHP thread. But politics is like religion to many. If I moderate a pro-Israel post I'm anti-Israel. If I moderate a post by a Labor party supporter I'm a right winger trying to suppress leftist views on ASF. So you can see my dilemma.

My dream, and it's a simple dream, is a forum where everyone respects each others opinions even if they don't agree with them. Where those at loggerheads over a political dispute don't insult each other but "agree to disagree" after respectfully presenting their differing views. Where discussion participants self-moderate rather than needing to be moderated. Oh, what a wonderful dream that is. 

I'll intervene if I really have to of course, but I'd really prefer it if people could just get along. Life's too short to get all worked up about political differences. We live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world with one of the highest standards of living. It pains me to see people insulting each other because of disagreements over the management of human affairs. It so easy to choose to take the high road, and so much better for the ASF community overall.


----------



## barney (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> My dream, and it's a simple dream, is a forum where everyone respects each others opinions even if they don't agree with them.




Never even been to this thread before but given my current state of mind ... your comment is a breath of fresh air Joe!!


----------



## moXJO (15 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, a very intelligent post.  Would you care to tell us why you think Shorten sucks ?




That one might of flown overhead


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2017)

moXJO said:


> That one might of flown overhead




I appreciated the sarcasm, but wanted to give you the opportunity to expand on it.


----------



## PZ99 (15 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> It's always a shame when these political threads are reduced to tit-for-tat personal attacks and accusations of trolling. It's been said many times in many ways: play the ball, not the man; attack the argument, not the person. Debate the issues all you like, but please don't make ad hominem attacks on others. Let's keep the discussion as constructive as possible.



That works for me.

I've got some relevant articles which I'll post during the week (after searching this thread to avoid doubling up) to generate some decent depth in discussions about party policy and leadership that escaped recent mainstream media because I'm curious as to what sort of feedback they'll provide.

Meanwhile, I'll pinch this from Mr Pickering...
You notice how Keating is leaning to the right and has BS on his left


----------



## noco (15 January 2017)

DB008 said:


> Really?





This  is the  very good interview between Bill Shorten and Davi Speers.


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Of all the responsibilities I have as the administrator of ASF there is none I dislike more than intervening in political threads.




 " A lot has been said about politics, some complimentary, but most of it accurate" - Eric Idle


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> Of all the responsibilities I have as the administrator of ASF there is none I dislike more than intervening in political threads.




Quite right and you shouldn't have to. This is a respectable forum not Facebook. Some people try to pick fights, others respond. I think the responders (myself included) sometimes ignore the first rule of Internet blogging, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

I will try as much as I can to stick to that rule in future.


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite right and you shouldn't have to. This is a respectable forum not Facebook. Some people try to pick fights, others respond. I think the responders (myself included) sometimes ignore the first rule of Internet blogging, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
> 
> I will try as much as I can to stick to that rule in future.




I don't really know why the thread needed Admin's intervention.... there are plenty of recent, albeit egregious posts by members stating they never get angry ... so why the fuss ?  (he says with a wry smirk and walks away gingerly lol).

You don't need to change your habits Sir knight, many great orators like e.g. Winston Churchill, Disraeli, Whitlam, Keating, etc made great mileage out of baiting and feeding their enemy trolls.


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> I don't really know why the thread needed Admin's intervention.... there are plenty of recent, albeit egregious posts by members stating they never get angry ... so why the fuss ?  (he says with a wry smirk and walks away gingerly lol).
> 
> .




You certainly like to have your dig in a very subtle way Tisme, but we all know who you are referring to and this is one of the things Joe Blow is trying to stamp out...Suggest you change your ways instead of provoking.

Plenty of albeit shocking and remarkable post by members stating they never get angry......As you well know, I am one who does not get angry so your pertinent remarks are well and truly targeted at me......You don't have to gloss it over.

Now you did mention members plural....Who are the others who do not get angry..I would like to meet them as we are one of a kind.

Joe Blow is doing his best to cleanse this type of diatribe from the ASF and get back to sensible debating without the personal attacks  on one's character.

I repeat my self again.

Confucius says.

"When anger rises think of the consequences".


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2017)

noco said:


> You certainly like to have your dig in a very subtle way Tisme, but we all know who you are referring to and this is one of the things Joe Blow is trying to stamp out...Suggest you change your ways instead of provoking.
> 
> Plenty of albeit shocking and remarkable post by members stating they never get angry......As you well know, I am one who does not get angry so your pertinent remarks are well and truly targeted at me......You don't have to gloss it over.
> 
> ...




So you're not angry then? Consequently those personal insults you hand out now and again; they are deliberate dishes served cold I'm supposing, so therefore trolling for effect?

I haven't used the search facility, but maybe you can wildcard "angry" and see what brethren come up.


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> So you're not angry then? Consequently those personal insults you hand out now and again; they are deliberate dishes served cold I'm supposing, so therefore trolling for effect?
> 
> I haven't used the search facility, but maybe you can wildcard "angry" and see what brethren come up.




Look Tisme don't start this stuff again.....That is now all in the past......Joe Blow has brought many of us into line and some of us are trying very hard to fulfill his wishes including me.

You seem hell bent on breaking that convention with your continued provocation.

Now how about being a good chappie by doing the right thing by Joe Blow's wishes and that is no more trolling, character assassination, intimidation or ridicule of other ASF members....


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2017)

noco said:


> Look Tisme don't start this stuff again.....That is now all in the past......Joe Blow has brought many of us into line and some of us are trying very hard to fulfill his wishes including me.
> 
> You seem hell bent on breaking that convention with your continued provocation.
> 
> Now how about being a good chappie by doing the right thing by Joe Blow's wishes and that is no more trolling, character assassination, intimidation or ridicule of other ASF members....




I don't see I'm contravening any rules? 

Rumpole has made a affirmation of self control (goodness knows he needs it!) when dealing with trolls and it seems you are attempting some kind of redemptive efforts and I applaud that. Your sparring partner of the recent past also seems to have backed off. luutzu continues to add entertaining fractured fact into his historical soup... the world is in a good place.

Insofar as my "stuff" posts, well I was always told to write as I speak. So wysiwyg on that. How you or others handle that is probably a measure of your envy and open mindedness to the possibility I know a thing or three and I'm sure with some judicious revision of my posts you will come to realise how infallible I am with my crystal ball and all things important.... it's a gift . LOL


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> I don't see I'm contravening any rules?
> 
> Rumpole has made a affirmation of self control (goodness knows he needs it!) when dealing with trolls and it seems you are attempting some kind of redemptive efforts and I applaud that. Your sparring partner of the recent past also seems to have backed off. luutzu continues to add entertaining fractured fact into his historical soup... the world is in a good place.
> 
> Insofar as my "stuff" posts, well I was always told to write as I speak. So wysiwyg on that. How you or others handle that is probably a measure of your envy and open mindedness to the possibility I know a thing or three and I'm sure with some judicious revision of my posts you will come to realise how infallible I am with my crystal ball and all things important.... it's a gift . LOL




I say to you again.....Just do the right thing by ASF and its members and I will leave it at that.....


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2017)

Good to see Shorten making a stand on political donations.



> Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says it is crucial to explore the options for a federal anti-corruption watchdog as part of reforms around parliamentary expenditure.
> 
> *Key points:*
> 
> ...


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Good to see Shorten making a stand on political donations.




Will Bill Shorten include union donations to the Labor Party or will they be exempt?

Both Shorten and Turnbull have jumped on Pauline Hansons's band wagon to stop these rorts of politicians expenses, perks and political donations.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2017)

noco said:


> Will Bill Shorten include union donations to the Labor Party or will they be exempt?




I'm sure Shorten is well aware that union donations will be raised in the debate, which shows a bit of guts to keep the issue in the public eye.


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure Shorten is well aware that union donations will be raised in the debate, which shows a bit of guts to keep the issue in the public eye.




I guess time will tell.

Don't forget the unions control the Labor Party.


----------



## PZ99 (16 January 2017)

Joe, I wanted to know if it is possible to add a (yes/no) poll to this thread and the Turnbull thread? This thread is quite old but things have changed and I reckon it would produce some interesting results. Cheers.


----------



## Joe Blow (16 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Joe, I wanted to know if it is possible to add a (yes/no) poll to this thread and the Turnbull thread? This thread is quite old but things have changed and I reckon it would produce some interesting results. Cheers.




I've added a poll to this thread but I'm wondering if it's a bit of a moot point with Turnbull given that he already is PM?


----------



## PZ99 (16 January 2017)

Joe Blow said:


> I've added a poll to this thread but I'm wondering if it's a bit of a moot point with Turnbull given that he already is PM?



Thanks for that. It's more a comparison between the two that arouses the curiosity given so many people feel we've reached the lowest common denominator with political leadership.


----------



## Joe Blow (16 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Thanks for that. It's more a comparison between the two that arouses the curiosity given so many people feel we've reached the lowest common denominator with political leadership.




Fair enough. I guess it can't hurt. I'll add one to the Turnbull thread now.


----------



## Tisme (23 January 2017)

I'm sure the Abbotts and Turnbulls will be quick out of the blocks trying to blame Bill Shorten for the resignation of Graeme Watson for the Fair Work Commission .... because the commission wasn't fair on him, poor darling.

This is the same Liberal Party hack who represented Patricks Stevadores, wharf "scabs", black dressed guards and their vicious dogs. My bet is he didn't care a fair work back then and probably doesn't now.


----------



## noco (23 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm sure the Abbotts and Turnbulls will be quick out of the blocks trying to blame Bill Shorten for the resignation of Graeme Watson for the Fair Work Commission .... because the commission wasn't fair on him, poor darling.
> 
> This is the same Liberal Party hack who represented Patricks Stevadores, wharf "scabs", black dressed guards and their vicious dogs. My bet is he didn't care a fair work back then and probably doesn't now.




And the outcome of it all is the wharfies went from handing 16 containers per hour to 28 .....Great improvement.


----------



## Tisme (23 January 2017)

noco said:


> And the outcome of it all is the wharfies went from handing 16 containers per hour to 28 .....Great improvement.




Yes there were positives like Peter Reith ruining what shreds of his decency were left and of course productivity.

The downside was the traumatisation of women and children, taxpayer monies spent of behalf of illegal company activities, found as such before the Federal and High courts, the government sponsored terrorism in the form of paid ex SAS and overseas mercenary soldiers to act against citizens of Australia.

It would be interesting to see how those employed thugs are fairing now, even after getting a $50k handshake.


----------



## noco (23 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yes there were positives like Peter Reith ruining what shreds of his decency were left and of course productivity.
> 
> The downside was the traumatisation of women and children, taxpayer monies spent of behalf of illegal company activities, found as such before the Federal and High courts, the government sponsored terrorism in the form of paid ex SAS and overseas mercenary soldiers to act against citizens of Australia.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how those employed thugs are fairing now, even after getting a $50k handshake.




Do you have a link to back up your statement or is that just general rhetoric.

It was a fight against the ruthless stand over tactics of wharfies union and the union lost...Stiff bickies.


----------



## Tisme (23 January 2017)

noco said:


> Do you have a link to back up your statement or is that just general rhetoric.
> 
> It was a fight against the ruthless stand over tactics of wharfies union and the union lost...Stiff bickies.




Yes, it's called the internet and .gov.au. How poor is your memory that you can't recall the train of events and the players involved. This was a situation where the  entire free world's ports systems nearly stopped in sympathy and you have convenient politically biased amnesia?!!

Do you have any facts to backup your statements about ruthless standover tactics by wharfies, or you dutifully just parroting the anti working class Murdoch Liberal Party?


----------



## noco (23 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yes, it's called the internet and .gov.au. How poor is your memory that you can't recall the train of events and the players involved. This was a situation where the  entire free world's ports systems nearly stopped in sympathy and you have convenient politically biased amnesia?!!
> 
> Do you have any facts to backup your statements about ruthless standover tactics by wharfies, or you dutifully just parroting the anti working class Murdoch Liberal Party?




Trolling again..What a shame you can't  control yourself...I thought Joe Blow had stamped out your capers but I see you are starting it again.


----------



## moXJO (23 January 2017)

They offered to sell the wharf to the unions for $1. Of course it was knocked back by the unions. 

The gravy train simply couldn't continue.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2017)

You only have to watch the first part of the Howard years to know what happened in that vicious dogs episode. Strange set of circumstances where all sides claimed victory, workers kept their jobs/conditions, productivity improved, Howard narrowly survived, and Peter Reith was left with a turd pile in his pants... ironically, the "win for all" is precisely what Fairwork is supposed to do but common sense will tell you when you fill up Fairwork with union hacks and Workchoice stooges you'll end up with a dysfunctional department and that's exactly what's been happening. Their decision for hospitality Sunday rates is about 6 months overdue although I guess now that they've ejected the obstructionist conservative they might get it done fairly soon.

But yeah, it was only a matter of minutes for Tony Abbott to remind everyone why he will never be PM again by defending his mate who tried to cut workers' wages. 

Graeme Watson is a grub.


----------



## Tisme (24 January 2017)

noco said:


> Trolling again..What a shame you can't  control yourself...I thought Joe Blow had stamped out your capers but I see you are starting it again.




No I put forward a discussion and you sought to hijack it for your own adversarial want to be seen as a middle class warrior, protector of the Holy Liberal Party sceptre, even if it is patently a display of cultural relativism gone awry (denial of your working class roots). 

If I was trolling you would know it as similar to your own emotionally charged and anti working class posts, but in this instance I merely stated historical fact.

I'm sure like minded wannabe silver spoons found great sport in watching scummy wharfies and their families getting their just deserts for bringing home more pay than anyone else in the state housing estate; it's how working class people think in the absence of wealth creation and cultured behaviour ... don't you think?


----------



## Tisme (24 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> But yeah, it was only a matter of minutes for Tony Abbott to remind everyone why he will never be PM again by defending his mate who tried to cut workers' wages.
> 
> Graeme Watson is a grub




I missed it, did Tony come to his mates defense and blame Billy? Sooo predictable.

Yes Graeme has let the whole world know of his entrenched bias, by accusing others of having an opposing view to his own consuming politics. There could be a case for review of past decisions, now we know he has espoused his impartiality problem.


----------



## noco (24 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> No I put forward a discussion and you sought to hijack it for your own adversarial want to be seen as a middle class warrior, protector of the Holy Liberal Party sceptre, even if it is patently a display of cultural relativism gone awry (denial of your working class roots).
> 
> If I was trolling you would know it as similar to your own emotionally charged and anti working class posts, but in this instance I merely stated historical fact.
> 
> I'm sure like minded wannabe silver spoons found great sport in watching scummy wharfies and their families getting their just deserts for bringing home more pay than anyone else in the state housing estate; it's how working class people think in the absence of wealth creation and cultured behaviour ... don't you think?




It is a pity you can't speak simple English instead of all this double dutch mumbo jumbo...It is so boring and uninteresting. 

Being a show man does not become you.

Apathetic : Lack of interest....indifference....insensibility.


----------



## Tisme (24 January 2017)

noco said:


> It is a pity you can't speak simple English instead of all this double dutch mumbo jumbo...It is so boring and uninteresting.
> 
> Being a show man does not become you.
> 
> Apathetic : Lack of interest....indifference....insensibility.





I would have thought any cultured industrialist would have a handle on the English language, thus my posts are aimed at the more erudite amongst us. Speaking working class is so beneath me.


----------



## noco (24 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> I would have thought any cultured industrialist would have a handle on the English language, thus my posts are aimed at the more erudite amongst us. Speaking working class is so beneath me.




Yes, we all know you are superior to all others and that you have an IQ of 170 + but you don't have to keep reminding us every day by looking down your nose at the working class below you.


----------



## PZ99 (25 January 2017)

So two days after Graeme Watson leaves the FWC Bill Shorten hints at Labor changing the rules if penalty rates are cut which is a major backflip on his previous comments...

http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...e/news-story/48eb2e64dc8bc84d41c23eee889361d1
_“If the commission were to cut penalty rates for hundreds of thousands of already low-paid workers without sufficient compensation — leaving people worse off, Labor would not accept this,”_

This is the statement Labor should have made prior to the election which might have scored them an extra seat or two. They _are_ supposed to be the workers party after all. I hope Bill has some good answers ready when the Coalition pull him up for his earlier deals at Cleanevent et-al. Now that Labor have stated their position they are going to have to maintain it all the way to the next election because it's the one area where they have the wood on the Liberal Party regardless of who leads it..


----------



## Tisme (25 January 2017)

noco said:


> Yes, we all know you are superior to all others and that you have an IQ of 170 + but you don't have to keep reminding us every day by looking down your nose at the working class below you.




Thankyou for your compliments. I'm sure they are heart felt, coming from a fabian such as yourself.


----------



## noco (25 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Thankyou for your compliments. I'm sure they are heart felt, coming from a fabian such as yourself.




Me a Fabian???.....no chance there baby.


----------



## Tisme (26 January 2017)

noco said:


> Me a Fabian???.....no chance there baby.




 Closet fabian then


----------



## Tisme (27 March 2017)




----------



## SirRumpole (27 March 2017)

Tisme said:


>





I hope Dastyari doesn't survive the next preselection ttest.


----------



## noco (29 March 2017)

Poor old barnacle Bill came off second best in parliament question time today....What a fool.


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2017)

noco said:


> Poor old barnacle Bill came off second best in parliament question time today....What a fool.




Going after Turnbull for his shady HIH days?


----------



## PZ99 (30 March 2017)

It illustrates how QT with its theatrics of pseudo-involvement of the public in a dysfunctional political process is a demonstration of an entire country effectively going on strike.


----------



## noco (30 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Going after Turnbull for his shady HIH days?




Excuse me Tisme......Turnbull was cleared...Shorten still has the stench of a bad smell hanging over his head with the dirty deals he did when AWU  Secretary...He didddled the workers of Chiquita and Clean event in return for dollars to the union....He was caught with $40,000 which he did not declare for 8 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2017)

noco said:


> Excuse me Tisme......Turnbull was cleared...Shorten still has the stench of a bad smell hanging over his head with the dirty deals he did when AWU  Secretary...He didddled the workers of Chiquita and Clean event in return for dollars to the union....He was caught with $40,000 which he did not declare for 8 years.




The biased Haydon Royal Commission had the chance to grind Shorten into the dirt if they could find anything wrong with his actions.

They couldn't and didn't so that's really the end of the story.


----------



## dutchie (30 March 2017)

PZ99 said:


> It illustrates how QT with its theatrics of pseudo-involvement of the public in a dysfunctional political process is a demonstration of an entire country effectively going on strike.



QT is just like an afternoon soapy.
It is a farce and a waste of money.
Hypocrisy abounds and the cast act like little children having a fight over a lolly.
Speaker, (for the 10 millionth time) "Stop interjecting children or I'll throw you out" - boring.
No wonder politicians are held in such low esteem!

Yet I am drawn to QT when I need a laugh.


----------



## noco (30 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> QT is just like an afternoon soapy.
> It is a farce and a waste of money.
> Hypocrisy abounds and the cast act like little children having a fight over a lolly.
> Speaker, (for the 10 millionth time) "Stop interjecting children or I'll throw you out" - boring.
> ...




I agree whole heatedly.......Nothing is ever gained....Both sides seeking to score political points.


----------



## noco (30 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The biased Haydon Royal Commission had the chance to grind Shorten into the dirt if they could find anything wrong with his actions.
> 
> They couldn't and didn't so that's really the end of the story.




You must be joking....ROFL.


----------



## noco (17 April 2017)

From this poll it would appear not too many are happy with barnacle Bill.

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lisa/poll-do-you-want-bill-shorten-as-next-pm-of-australia


----------



## noco (15 May 2017)

In reply to Tisme.....

*But Rumpy, there is one thing that has me baffled.....The Labor Party has gained ground in the polls yet Shorten has lost ground in popularity against Turnbull who has gained ground.

It is hard to work out what makes people tick sometimes.*

Tisme, I hope this makes you a little happier....Now you can take that lemon out of your mouth


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> In reply to Tisme.....
> 
> *But Rumpy, there is one thing that has me baffled.....The Labor Party has gained ground in the polls yet Shorten has lost ground in popularity against Turnbull who has gained ground.
> 
> ...




Perhaps the electorate has matured enough to realise that popularity does not a General make.


----------



## moXJO (16 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps the electorate has matured enough to realise that popularity does not a General make.



Who is stupid enough to think Shorten is General material? 
Well one person is according to the poll.


----------



## Tisme (16 May 2017)

moXJO said:


> Who is stupid enough to think Shorten is General material?
> Well one person is according to the poll.




Well it's not me, but  that doesn't preclude me from the right to be stupid. The popular one is Turnbull and it is he who is not a good General; my comment wasn't supposed to translate into endorsement of Shorten or imply he was national  leadership material ... that hasn't been tested yet.

Paul Keating said it best IMO ..."Leadership is not about being popular.  It's about being right and about being strong."


----------



## PZ99 (16 May 2017)

It's not me either. No escaping populism I'm afraid. Not even in the time tunnel.
Paul Keating played that game > Yes GST 1985, No GST 1993.
John Howard > No GST 1993. Yes GST 1998... you can trace this back to the Fraser era.

"being right" is determined by the majority and keeping people happy is everything in a democracy. The only change is the instant justice via the internet from the fifth estate. Hello Mark Latham.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2017)

Shorten comes out as a bit of a dork in public but I think he's capable of rational thought and has an organisational capability that would make him a good PM.

Personal popularity comes second to Party voting intention, if Labor win he's PM like him or not.


----------



## noco (16 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Shorten comes out as a bit of a dork in public but I think he's capable of rational thought and has an organisational capability that would make him a good PM.
> 
> Personal popularity comes second to Party voting intention, if Labor win he's PM like him or not.




I think voters are regarding Turnbull the lesser of two evils.......But we still have two a bit years to go to the next election and my guess is as good as yours and that is, anything can happen in the next two years.


----------



## Jorgensen (16 May 2017)

I voted yes because you do not know how they perform until they get there.
If people could expect a strange person like Tony Abbott to be a decent PM-well there is hope for anyone.
His decision to knight the Duke and one Australian demonstrated,amongst other decisions,what a weird person he is.
I wonder why GG Cosgrove accepted the anachronism as well?


----------



## moXJO (16 May 2017)

noco said:


> I think voters are regarding Turnbull the lesser of two evils.......But we still have two a bit years to go to the next election and my guess is as good as yours and that is, anything can happen in the next two years.



I'm on the right and I find him and the current libs terrible. 
Not that I endorse the labor party at all. The last thing the country needs is minority headfukc policies and debates over gay marriage being center stage. There was a big fuss over a woman politician breastfeeding in the Senate or something. Who the hell cares, we have had every member sucking on the taxpayers teat in parliament for years. Whats the fuss over one more.

I can't defend the current libs, less so with labor.


----------



## noco (16 May 2017)

moXJO said:


> I'm on the right and I find him and the current libs terrible.
> Not that I endorse the labor party at all. The last thing the country needs is minority headfukc policies and debates over gay marriage being center stage. There was a big fuss over a woman politician breastfeeding in the Senate or something. Who the hell cares, we have had every member sucking on the taxpayers teat in parliament for years. Whats the fuss over one more.
> 
> I can't defend the current libs, less so with labor.




I think Turnbull will be gone before Xmas2017....He will either resign of get kicked out.


----------



## Tisme (16 May 2017)

noco said:


> I think Turnbull will be gone before Xmas2017....He will either resign of get kicked out.




If Peter Garret can get back on stage and pack the house, perhaps Mal can reclaim some of his prestige if he leaves sooner than later.


----------



## noco (16 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> If Peter Garret can get back on stage and pack the house, perhaps Mal can reclaim some of his prestige if he leaves sooner than later.




Off Topic......The thread is about Bill Shorten....He is the one who should reign.

Turnbull should resign with dignity rather than bear the shame of being voted out.


----------



## Tisme (16 May 2017)

noco said:


> Off Topic......The thread is about Bill Shorten....He is the one who should reign.
> 
> Turnbull should resign with dignity rather than bear the shame of being voted out.





Very odd you would endorse Shorten ....strange days.


----------



## Tisme (16 May 2017)

Another example of why Labor continues to garner votes from the fringes moving into mainstream. There's talk of crowd funding an Ark to another planet to escape Earth before it's too late.


----------



## Tisme (19 June 2017)

Oh oh Bill Looks like a shoe in at this stage.

Can someone please offer Tanya and Penny a job at Landbridge Group.



> *Newspoll: 53-47 to Labor*
> Newspoll comes in at 53-47 for the third time in a row, with both leaders down slightly on their net approval ratings.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (19 June 2017)

Just shows what a bad state Australian politics is at, very very very sad.

Race to the lowest common denominator, but hey at least everyone is forewarned. 
Don't save, don't try, find a reason not to achieve. 
If you do achieve, you will be punished. lol


----------



## PZ99 (20 June 2017)

I still rate this current offering as slightly better than 2010, 2013 or anything involving Tony Abbott. The LCD from the press on the other hand will be a story in itself.

Can't wait for the "Ditch the Kitsch" signs and other such hyperbole the mainstream media (and Bark Latham) will be using to disguise the false/lazy journalism leading up to the next election.


----------



## Tink (20 June 2017)

Have a look at the state of Victoria, and that is what you will have with Shorten, imv.

No accountability.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/i-dislike-daniel-andrews-intensely.32824/


----------



## dutchie (20 June 2017)

Is Shorten PM material?
Importantly Malcolm thinks he is. He is doing his utmost to make sure Billy is elected.

Thanks for nothing Malcolm.


----------



## PZ99 (20 June 2017)

And yet Malcolm Turnbull out rates Bill Shorten as "PM material" every time. Abbott did not.

Yes I saw what happened in Victoria.  They had a one term Coalition Govt with two premiers in three years which I partially attribute to Tony Abbott. Same goes for QLD.

As recently as last week Abbott stated that Bill Shorten was PM material and would become PM.

How ironic for that homophobe to be batting for the other side; keep him away from my seat


----------



## Tisme (20 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> And yet Malcolm Turnbull out rates Bill Shorten as "PM material" every time. Abbott did not.
> 
> Yes I saw what happened in Victoria.  They had a one term Coalition Govt with two premiers in three years which I partially attribute to Tony Abbott. Same goes for QLD.
> 
> ...




I think Bill's running equal with Malcolm as preferred and not preferred lately.

What appears to be happening is "Howard's Battlers" who were by and large middle class bogans aren't satisfied with the lack of and diminishing (albeit Malcolm's recent shouting incarnation) gutter brawling politics that Abbott brought to an artform. The bogans can't make the transition to maturity and so they are looking for a different posse to support and regression back to their traditional ALP roots is the easier path.


----------



## PZ99 (20 June 2017)

Malcolm and Bill are poles apart and have been from the start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_...ion#Preferred_prime_minister_and_satisfaction

I think people prefer Malcolm but believe his party and their polices stink. This is my view as well.


----------



## Tisme (20 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Malcolm and Bill are poles apart and have been from the start.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_...ion#Preferred_prime_minister_and_satisfaction
> 
> I think people prefer Malcolm but believe his party and their polices stink. This is my view as well.





Did you not read the article I posted a few back?

I admire the fact you are much the same as me when it comes to political offerings.

I must admit I was far more scathing of Rudd and Gillard when they were governing, primarily because the ALP is made of a much higher level of the educated and academics who should know better than throwing money at social engineering and mitigating the wrongs of progressive liberalism that once ensconced itself as the cornerstone of the Liberal Party before thuggery and bear faced lying became it's hallmark.

The ALP are a complete no go zone for me because I just can't endorse penalisation for being the best person for a job regardless of gender, colour, religion, ethnicity;  for having an innate disdain of human effrontories, for being against public service size and absurd renumerations, for being scrupled in giving away our freedoms in the name of harmony with barbarians.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I think people prefer Malcolm but believe his party and their polices stink. This is my view as well.




Turnbull has turned from a man who believed in things to a pompous windbag defending the indefensible and trying desperately to hold on to his own job by berating the Opposition and blaming them for every ill under the sun, and giving largess to his mates in business and the upper income levels while ignoring everyone else.

It sickens me to listen to him these days, and while I cringe when I listen to Shorten for his faltering delivery and hymn book recitals at least he sometimes seems to make sense. (if only he could get rid of Tanya and Penny and get the rest of the victim mentality set).


----------



## dutchie (23 July 2017)

Well *B*ill *S*horten is lying again (remember the Mediscare campaign he lied about).

This time he is lying about inequality being at a 75-year high.

Bill Shorten’s claim that inequality is at a 75-year high is “patently false”, according to one of Australia’s leading labour market economists who suggested stagnant wage growth had made such claims believable.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...y/news-story/8f024f6383f8000dd06f0febd85b89b1

No doubt he and Labor will be running their election campaign on this lie.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2017)

He did put up a reasonable proposal for four year Federal terms on Insiders today.

I would vote for it, anyone else ?


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2017)

dutchie said:


> Well *B*ill *S*horten is lying again (remember the Mediscare campaign he lied about).
> 
> This time he is lying about inequality being at a 75-year high.
> 
> ...





I'm guessing Mediscare had the desired effect . I say this because the LNP has never been happy with Whitlam's legacy.

The inequailty indices are subjective enough for both side of the argument to be correct.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> He did put up a reasonable proposal for four year Federal terms on Insiders today.
> 
> I would vote for it, anyone else ?



No actual policies, just a lot of hot air.
Saying something and actually delivering are miles apart. Have to wait and see. The middle class is already stretched with bills and taxes. Not sure how many more they want added by labor.

Libs already bought in the 'earnt here taxed here' reforms. Scaring away business probably not the best idea. Any tech start ups here are already inclined to get out of dodge.
Shorten gets a bit panicked  when he has to go off speech, but the labor party definitely rolled that turd in as much glitter as they could find.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2017)

moXJO said:


> The middle class is already stretched with bills and taxes.




If the 'middle' class is stretched, what about the 'lower' class ?


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If the 'middle' class is stretched, what about the 'lower' class ?





Such a cloudy distinction these days.

I look out my window and see e.g an AU falcon pulling a crisp new Bayliner with 200+ pony motor and wonder how the equation works these days.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> and wonder how the equation works these days.




Debt.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Debt.



Amen to that.
A lot of families are one incident away from homelessness. House prices are the only thing saving them. If they get in a jam, they can sell and downsize.

 We will need to flick back to a labor core govt. But I  think we still need some of the libs "draconian" measures to smooth the economy some more.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2017)

moXJO said:


> We will need to flick back to a labor core govt. But I think we still need some of the libs "draconian" measures to smooth the economy some more.




Yeah, that's the trouble, we need some sort of government that can see both sides and not just stick to the 'Left v Right' ideology wars. 

Is there another Hawke or Keating out there ?


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> He did put up a reasonable proposal for four year Federal terms on Insiders today.
> 
> I would vote for it, anyone else ?



I would, AFTER Bill is gone


----------



## Tisme (12 August 2017)

It's Bill Shorten's fault:


----------



## sptrawler (13 August 2017)

Good post Tisme.
I wish he had backed up his rhetoric, with substance.
But then that wouldn't be Bill, how would he stay the leader, when the Girls where ganging up on him.

Changes to marriage, or whether we move to a republic, have to be a decision of the populace not by group of politicians that have attained office by chance.
It amazes me, that they think wisdom, is inherited by office.
I think that is where Hillary, went wrong, taking for granted that because she said it, people would swallow it.
For Bill to to take charge of the forum, he has to adopt a sensible response, to logical LNP policy.

For Malcolm to take charge, he has to grow a pair and say this is it, which at his age isn't going to happen.


----------



## crackajack (13 August 2017)

any jerk is PM material they are all muppets


----------



## crackajack (13 August 2017)

all pollies are poo jabbers anway


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Good post Tisme.
> I wish he had backed up his rhetoric, with substance.
> But then that wouldn't be Bill, how would he stay the leader, when the Girls where ganging up on him.
> 
> ...




Absolutely 100% true in my book. I won't say I'm disillusioned with Labor or Liberal because I have always run my own race, but it is disappointing that courageous men and women with a real national agenda have either been driven out of office or excluded from pre selection by the self interest groups. 

It's always been a tough gig to navigate around egos in politics, but I fear it's become a full time job for prime ministers instead of having clear space and vision. I know it sounds partisan, but we really do need a love/hate relationship with another Paul Keating.


----------



## Wysiwyg (27 November 2017)

Bill (I'm Green, I'm Gay, I'm a Humanitarian) Shorten is such a fake. Opposition to everything from present Gov. is his only game with stupid ideas to counter. It's why people vote for (bigger) idiots like Pauline Hanson and Clive Palmer.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Bill (I'm Green, I'm Gay, I'm a Humanitarian) Shorten is such a fake. Opposition to everything from present Gov. is his only game with stupid ideas to counter. It's why people vote for (bigger) idiots like Pauline Hanson and Clive Palmer.




Don't worry, Bill is hoping to be the Steven Bradbury of politics, to get him over the line. lol
Also the LNP, by putting 'selfie' Malcolm in charge, have played right into their hands


----------



## dutchie (29 November 2017)

It is obvious which side Sam Dastyari supports (and it ain't Australia) and Bill Shorten also shows his colours by his support of Sam.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/sam-dastyari-denies-warning-chinese-donor-of-phone-tap/9205012


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 November 2017)

Shorten has a problem with his fly.

If it comes (allah excuse me) the LNP will slaughter him.

Best the ALP go with Albo. 

gg


----------



## PZ99 (29 November 2017)

Dastyari is finished I reckon. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/sam-dastyari-secret-south-china-sea-recordings/9198044


----------



## PZ99 (29 November 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Shorten has a problem with his fly.
> 
> If it comes (allah excuse me) the LNP will slaughter him.
> 
> ...




Euthanasia Bill ? 

_Thankyouverymuch _


----------



## SirRumpole (29 November 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Dastyari is finished I reckon.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/sam-dastyari-secret-south-china-sea-recordings/9198044





He should be, he's a disgrace.


----------



## dutchie (29 November 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Dastyari is finished I reckon.



 No way. Bill has told him that he has been a naughty little boy again. There's no TV for him for the next three weeks.
But later, when Labor get in, Bill will make him the Minister of Defence because he has such a good relationship with the Chinese (and God knows how many other generous countries).


----------



## Tisme (30 November 2017)

The trouble the LNP wil have in pursuing Sam is their very own manGod Andrew Robb, who left parliament to take up a $900k part time job with a Chinese boss, following a history of accepting $50k +_  donations from the Chinese; supposedly for campaigns..


----------



## overhang (30 November 2017)

If Dastyari doesn't go then I hope the Labor party are annihilated at the next election until Sam and Shorten are no longer part of the Labor party.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2017)

Shorten has told Dastyari to resign from all his official positions in the Labor Party, ABC TV reports.


----------



## PZ99 (30 November 2017)

Today's a good day to get it done. It'll fly under the radar of the banking royal commission over the next few days.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2017)

The Labor Party is hitting back about Andrew Robb taking a job with a Chinese company after recommending that company be sold Darwin ports.

Quite a valid criticism imo.


----------



## Tisme (30 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The Labor Party is hitting back about Andrew Robb taking a job with a Chinese company after recommending that company be sold Darwin ports.
> 
> Quite a valid criticism imo.




Told you so.

The ALP have an overstocked weaponry store they can call on at any one time. The LNP is rife with questionable activities.


----------



## Logique (30 November 2017)

Incredibly, Dastyari had already wormed his sway back into the position of ALP Deputy Whip.

Short of terrorist acts, or multiple homicides, what will it take for the ALP to divest itself of this _"..Spiv from central casting"_, as Peter Dutton said. ..?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2017)

Focussing on Silly Sam ignores the real question that foreign donations must be banned.

When you have a system that encourages bribery, it's pretty certain that it will happen.


----------



## dutchie (1 December 2017)

I don't know why Dastyari is not being charged with treason.


----------



## dutchie (4 December 2017)

Now we know why Shorten backs the traitor Dastyari.

Foreign donations to political parties to be BANNED after explosive revelations Bill Shorten sought election funding from Communist Party-linked Chinese benefactor

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-political-parties-banned.html#ixzz50EQ1NIJV 

Shorten is definitely *not* PM material!


----------



## PZ99 (4 December 2017)

"Mr Shorten has not denied the visit, but pointed out to Fairfax that senior government figures from Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to deputy Liberal leader Julie Bishop and former PM Tony Abbott, all have socialised with Mr Huang."

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...e/news-story/dbb9b3b3f25a91020a1c13d5af1012be

Kinda rules out the whole mob then dunnit hey?


----------



## Logique (6 December 2017)

Sino-Sam,
second offence, but he still won't be expelled from Bill Shorten's AWU and Chinese business-funded Labor party, let alone the Senate ticket.  ABC and Fairfax will fall into line.







> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/
> Wednesday, 06 December 2017
> ... Sam Dastyari has never received so much as acknowledgement of his application for renunciation - let alone the requisite approval from the Islamic Republic of Iran, of his release from his obligations to that country.
> *Dastyari's obligation includes an order that he complete national service in the Iranian military *prior to his application to renounce proceeding any further...


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2017)

Logique said:


> Sino-Sam,
> second offence, but he still won't be expelled from Bill Shorten's AWU and Chinese business-funded Labor party, let alone the Senate ticket.  ABC and Fairfax will fall into line.
> 
> View attachment 85089




Whatever Dastyari did, he wasn't in government, Andrew Robb was. There are much bigger questions over Robb's involvement in the sale of Darwin port to the Chinese than there are over Dastyari's misdemeanour.


----------



## dutchie (7 December 2017)

Well we know Dastyari is a traitor.

He should be kicked out of Australia.

Sam Dastyari is under fire again for his “pro-China” stance after it was revealed he hounded senior defence officials with more than 115 questions about Chinese interests since his appointment to the Senate in 2013.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/452eb6c4cb3aa62ddaa9be4fb0cfc2b9

So where does Shortens' allegiance stand?


Shorten backs him so he should never be PM.

Shorten can not be trusted with Australias' security.


----------



## Tisme (7 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> Well we know Dastyari is a traitor.
> 
> He should be kicked out of Australia.
> 
> ...





I think the real question here is just how virtuous are any of the political parties and pollies? We saw a senior Liberal lease our naval assets in Darwin to a Chinaman, we see, on media, the unsettling fawning of cuckolded pollies of both sides as their master sits like the cat that got the cream.

Very unbecoming watching grown men and women acting like fanboys at a George Michael concert.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Very unbecoming watching grown men and women acting like fanboys at a George Michael concert.




We should give some credit to the government for banning foreign donations, and to Labor if they support it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...ut-crack-down-on-foreign-interference/9231586


----------



## dutchie (7 December 2017)

Dastyari and his side kick Shorten are more of a threat to Australias' sovereignty than all the "non-Australian" politicians put together.
Yet the High Court has to rule on the latter and waste time and money. Does not make sense.


----------



## Tisme (7 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> Dastyari and his side kick Shorten are more of a threat to Australias' sovereignty than all the "non-Australian" politicians put together.
> Yet the High Court has to rule on the latter and waste time and money. Does not make sense.





So many foreigners running the country, it's little wonder we are in the sh17e .... they escape the mess of their homeland just to infect our turf.


----------



## dutchie (7 December 2017)

Bill Shorten on Dastyari talking to Chinese..

" I don't know what Sam said to the Chinese but let me say I support whatever he said."




"I'm sure he's right."


----------



## Macquack (7 December 2017)

dutchie said:


> Bill Shorten on Dastyari talking to Chinese..
> 
> " I don't know what Sam said to the Chinese but let me say I support whatever he said."
> 
> ...





Posting false doctored statements just highlights your bias and lowers your credibility.


----------



## dutchie (7 December 2017)

Macquack said:


> Posting false doctored statements just highlights your bias and lowers your credibility.




Agreed.
When it comes to traitors my bias is extreme.
My credibility is very low. Luckily, not as low as yours.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2017)

Bill Shorten won't do the job himself but is naughty boy Samuel now being white-anted from within his own party?


> Labor frontbencher Linda Burney said this morning "it is now up to Mr Dastyari to consider his position".
> 
> "And I am sure he is doing that," Ms Burney told Sky News.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...ure-to-resign-from-within-labor-party/9245526


----------



## dutchie (12 December 2017)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten won't do the job himself but is naughty boy Samuel now being white-anted from within his own party?
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...ure-to-resign-from-within-labor-party/9245526




Not by Kristina Keneally. After all there are 20% Chinese in Bennelong to suck up to.

Dastyari, Shorten, Keneally - birds of a feather.


----------



## dutchie (20 December 2017)

BILL Shorten is working on a secret deal with the *grubby* CFMEU and the hard-core left to secure his leadership in return for giving the union spots in his federal Labor team.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...p/news-story/5205d66ea953d38e11b0822d21ed64f6

Shorten definitely not fit to be PM.
Labor not fit to govern.


----------



## Logique (17 January 2018)

Surprise!  Kristina Keneally to inherit Sam Dastyari's NSW Senate seat. 

She didn't do any good running against JA in Bennelong, but she's in the Labor club, so it doesn't matter: 
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...am-dastyaris-senate-spot-20180117-h0jruz.html


----------



## Tisme (17 January 2018)

Logique said:


> Surprise!  Kristina Keneally to inherit Sam Dastyari's NSW Senate seat.
> 
> She didn't do any good running against JA in Bennelong, but she's in the Labor club, so it doesn't matter:
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...am-dastyaris-senate-spot-20180117-h0jruz.html




Does she bring anything to he ALP table that might negate the infestation of Wongs and Pliberseks?


----------



## sptrawler (17 January 2018)

It will be very interesting to see the outcome of the next election, Labor is going feminine heavy, I wonder if it will pay off?


----------



## PZ99 (17 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> Does she bring anything to he ALP table that might negate the infestation of Wongs and Pliberseks?



KK brings nothing to the table other than rotting fruits of liability.


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2018)

It certainly is a "boys" club, heaven help someone, who just wants to be a honest politician, picked because of their enthusiasm and grunt work.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...am-dastyaris-senate-spot-20180117-h0jruz.html

Get over it, it won't happen in any major party.


----------



## PZ99 (18 January 2018)

And there's a reason for that. Your main prerequisite for selection is to have a dubious background that can be used against you every time you stray from the party line


----------



## dutchie (18 January 2018)

KK to replace SD
It's a win win situation.
Labor is happy because the factions keep ruling.
The coalition is happy because Labor replaces one political drop kick with another.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2018)

This article gives a very good representation of the situation, regarding Bill.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/why-bill-shorten-is-not-a-socialist/9522336

This is the problem the Liberals have, Bill and Malcolm are twins, but there is only one they can punish at the polls.
They are both beige and walking the center line, but the general public want a vision, neither Malcolm or Bill can give one so one gets chucked out.
The rise of the 'Steven Bradbury' effect.

Just had a thought, if Bill doesn't win, Labor will go into meltdown.IMO


----------



## explod (7 March 2018)

Shame he can't be ditched, there are a number, Fitzgerald in particular who could lift the side in my view.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2018)

I'm of the opinion, that it really doesn't matter who you vote for, unless they follow the script, they go.
Then the next one steps up, and so on, I'm not being Party specific.
There are heaps of examples where Australia's best interests would be served, by different policies, when they are presented the presenter exits 'left stage'.

Nothing much has changed IMO, other than we are sliding and our resources are diminishing. lol

IMO that is where Hawke failed, he had ultimate support and the faith of the Nation, then he dropped the ball. IMO


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> This article gives a very good representation of the situation, regarding Bill.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/why-bill-shorten-is-not-a-socialist/9522336
> 
> ...




I think both parties are captive to their own stupidity in trying to cast the Green vote. 

They are the ones who stepped outside their core being and tried emulating the ragtag Greens. They even poured money into social justice fads hoping it would garner votes, but all that has done is validate the fifth estates and eroded the core ALP/LNP membership and primary votes.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2018)

Shorten needs to cast Labor off from the CFMEU, they are a millstone around his party's neck.

Labor's association with corrupt unions is about the only mud that the Libs can throw against Labor.

If Shorten has the guts to sever the link with the CFMEU then I think he has got the next election won.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2018)

I'd like to see more like Doug Cameron back into both parties. Sure they are dinosaurs of the 1960/70's when people just said what had to be said, but it might be a good change:


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'd like to see more like Doug Cameron back into both parties. Sure they are dinosaurs of the 1960/70's when people just said what had to be said, but it might be a good change:




Yes, Doug is good value.

He was just asking about the source of staff appointments and then Cash went off on her ridiculous sidetrack. She's the one not fit to be a Minister.


----------



## Wysiwyg (8 March 2018)

Shorten is paddling into the renewable energy, clean and green wave. The weight of global warming will swing people toward Labor at the next or following election and it will be goodbye to fossil fuel extraction and use. The QLD. Labor governments backing of the Adani coal mine is a thorn in his side while S.A. government is his surfboard for the ride.


----------



## Wysiwyg (8 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Shorten needs to cast Labor off from the CFMEU, they are a millstone around his party's neck.
> 
> Labor's association with corrupt unions is about the only mud that the Libs can throw against Labor.
> 
> If Shorten has the guts to sever the link with the CFMEU then I think he has got the next election won.



The working class hero is bread and butter for Labor. He will aim to clean up the image rather than sever ties.


----------



## PZ99 (8 March 2018)

^ Can't sever ties with your number one sponsor 


sptrawler said:


> This article gives a very good representation of the situation, regarding Bill.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/why-bill-shorten-is-not-a-socialist/9522336
> 
> ...



BS (that's Bill Shorten  ) is more like Tony Abbott - unpopular blockers beating a broken Govt.

TA was way less popular than Big Rev Kev right up to the election but still won.


----------



## PZ99 (8 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'd like to see more like Doug Cameron back into both parties. Sure they are dinosaurs of the 1960/70's when people just said what had to be said, but it might be a good change:










Faulty airbags for faulty airheads


----------



## Logique (13 March 2018)

Classy guy is ole  '_Answer-Depends-On-the-Current-Audience_'.
Going after retirees and pensioners now!







> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...n-tax-hit-as-anti-growth-20180313-p4z430.html
> ...In a move mostly affecting wealthier Australians, a *Bill Shorten-led Labor government would end cash refunds for taxpayers who own shares* and claim tax credits on their dividends.
> Treasurer Scott Morrison said the policy was a "*brutal and cruel blow for retirees, for pensioners*" which would bring the total value of Labor's tax proposals to more than $200 billion...


----------



## SirRumpole (13 March 2018)

Logique said:


> Classy guy is ole  '_Answer-Depends-On-the-Current-Audience_'.
> Going after retirees and pensioners now!




*In a move mostly affecting wealthier Australians,*


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

http://www.tai.org.au/content/peter...ate-decisions-treasurer-cost-budget-56bn-year

When companies pay dividends to Australia shareholders out of after-tax profit, shareholders also receive 'franking credits' which are a credit against their own tax obligation and based on the tax paid by the company. This system, known as 'dividend imputation' is unusual and only 4 other countries in the world use it.


However, in 2000 Mr Costello made the system even more generous to shareholders by allowing them to get a cash refund if they receive more in 'franking credits' than they actually owe in tax. Because income from superannuation is tax free for people over 60, high income retirees can use franking credits to get a cash gift of over 40 cents for every dollar they receive in dividends.


The ATO estimates that Peter Costello's decision to allow 'excess' franking credits to be refunded as cash cost $4.6 billion in 2012-13.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> *In a move mostly affecting wealthier Australians,*



Hopefully Labor tax pensioners, who recieve more than the $18,000 tax free threshold, also.lol
A tax free handout as a pension, for those who have saved sod all, now that is welfare to the max.


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Good to see you stimulate the capitalist nerve again @sptrawler 

For a minute there I thought today was national fabian day


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Well if we're going to be honest, we might as well say it as it is.

Actually if we are going to apply your reasoning on fairness, the only people who should be able to apply the franking credit, are those who pay tax at a higher level than the corporate rate.
Everyone else is getting a tax advantage from it, so why target one group? like I said it is discriminatory.


----------



## Logique (13 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> *In a move mostly affecting wealthier Australians,*



I doubt the majority of retirees are paying tax at a higher rate than the company rate, whether or not reduced by the Coalition. So the majority of retirees would be slugged unfairly with an effective tax increase.

This needs to be better targeted at the few using it as tax avoidance.


----------



## notting (13 March 2018)

*KILL BILL


https://www.theguardian.com/austral...sh-refunds-for-wealthy-investors-saving-114bn*


----------



## HelloU (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Well if we're going to be honest, we might as well say it as it is.
> 
> Actually if we are going to apply your reasoning on fairness, the only people who should be able to apply the franking credit, are those who pay tax at a higher level than the corporate rate.
> Everyone else is getting a tax advantage from it, so why target one group? like I said it is discriminatory.



Strangely that is pretty much exactly how i see this thing being described by the labor announcements......just this aspect not getting a lot of airplay. I read the announcements as under $37K taxable then lose, or about $51K gross before salary sacrifice then lose.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

HelloU said:


> Strangely that is pretty much exactly how i see this thing being described by the labor announcements......just this aspect not getting a lot of airplay. I read the announcements as under $37K taxable then lose, or about $51K gross before salary sacrifice then lose.




Yes this is the problem with a left leaning media, they bag the "rich" and everyone's eyes roll back, then alleluia starts playing in the background.
What they fail to realise is, it hits them, and also puts the final nail in their super coffin.lol
If your not getting the franking credit, your super is no better of than outside super, which is probably what Labor want.
But before everyone takes it out, they will legislate to stop it being allowed, well that's my guess.lol


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2018)

Well it looks like a partial fack blip is on the way from the ALP which suggests that it wasn't properly thought out or estimated. Typical of these Yes Minister style grand schemes. 

Selling the hard yards sounds popular until it becomes unpopular 

http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...s/news-story/7ba47f42dcdbcde5b1161c5089003910


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Well it looks like a partial fack blip is on the way from the ALP which suggests that it wasn't properly thought out or estimated. Typical of these Yes Minister style grand schemes.
> 
> Selling the hard yards sounds popular until it becomes unpopular



So dividend imputation will still exist but can't offset taxable income or tax owed? I don't understand because I'm a dummy.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Well it looks like a partial fack blip is on the way from the ALP which suggests that it wasn't properly thought out or estimated. Typical of these Yes Minister style grand schemes.
> 
> Selling the hard yards sounds popular until it becomes unpopular
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...s/news-story/7ba47f42dcdbcde5b1161c5089003910




Investors should be glad dividend imputation exists at all and should give thanks to the Labor Party for it's introduction.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Investors should be glad dividend imputation exists at all and should give thanks to the Labor Party for it's introduction.





Yes the same guy who introduced is behind the latest policy to return it to its original 1987 form.

It was introduced to end double taxation, not collect a subsidy where you get paid for delivering zip tax to the tax dept. I'm not saying it's a bad thing ...who wouldn't want to get a cheque at the end of the year even if you earned way more money than the minimum tax threshold ...yeah!

For those who don't know how it works:

Depending on previous annual turnover, some companies frank at 27.5% and the larger ones 30% .... they are prepaying the tax at a set rate, which is then compared to the shareholder's tax rate at tax return time for either a graduated tax credit or liability against the grossed up dividend payment.

If you are paying tax at the superannuation rate of 15% your 30% franked dividend will return you the 15% remaining as a cash payment.

If you are in the highest tax bracket you end up paying 16.5% or whatever of the grossed up dividend value to the taxman.

But what Howard and Costello did was allow cash payments by the taxation dept even if their imputation credits exceeded their tax liability.... it's like getting paid a bonus for not kicking in any tax...yeah.  I'd like it if my companies could put their hand out and get money instead of tax credits.

8% of taxpayers get cash refunds, 90% of the those payments gets sunk back into self managed super funds, which are 10% of the total superannuation industry and 45% of the payments goes to the top 10% of self managed super funds.... how could that possibly a rort.


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Investors should be glad dividend imputation exists at all and should give thanks to the Labor Party for it's introduction.



Agreed. However dividends can be a drag on capital growth and while it might look enticing at first glance it can sometimes cost you if the the companies' profits aren't compounding. Some of our banks are giving away most - if not all of their EPS as dividend payouts, which in the opinion of some economists is unsustainable - hence the cutbacks by BHP, TLS, WBC, ANZ etc.

In any event I still think this "bonus" should've been rolled back by the Gillard govt.

It was their policy to substantially increase the tax free threshold (to offset the carbon tax for low income earners) that has caused this bizarre problem with the imputation credits.

The thing for Silly Billy here is the ability to put together a policy after you've done the homework, otherwise you end up with the same flip flop policy chaos that Tony Abbott gave us.

The Turnbull Govt has at least scored a point or two in that regard (my view)


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> The thing for Silly Billy here is the ability to put together a policy after you've done the homework, otherwise you end up with the same flip flop policy chaos that Tony Abbott gave us.
> 
> The Turnbull Govt has at least scored a point or two in that regard (my view)




Yes, I think you are right, but I still remember Julia Gillard's statement that pensioners don't vote Labor, so maybe it was a calculated risk by Shorten.


----------



## Logique (15 March 2018)

The reason the Labor/Greens proposal is hypocritical, and a little sinister, is this.

There aren't two classes of Ordinary shares in banks or BHP. There's just fully paid ordinary shares. You take the same market risk to buy and hold them, and you earn the same benefits, i.e. including franking credits. I think the legality/constitutionality of Labor/Green proposal is questionable.

Consider these two groups that Labor/Greens wish to create:

Group 1:  Shorten, Bowen, Plibersek, Natali
This group gets the full claimable benefit of franking credits, since they can claim it against their current year tax liability

Group 2:  Retirees, part-Pensioners, Self-funded retirees
This group, with little or no current year tax liability, is now being asked to forgo their franking credit (as a rebate). But they have earned this benefit, by owning the shares at market risk.

Many in Group 2 will simply be forced onto pension or part-pension.  Let alone having the rug pulled from under them on Super rules they have spent decades using to provide for their own retirement.

The opposition has belled the cat.  They're coming after Superannuation, and this is just the start.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

Logique said:


> The opposition has belled the cat. They're coming after Superannuation, and this is just the start.




As Labor introduced compulsory super I doubt if they are going to wreck their own plan.

Howard gave some money wasting concessions for upper income earners by only taxing super contributions at 15%, a massive tax break for people earning enough to put a lot of their salaries into super, but not much use to low income earners.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> As Labor introduced compulsory super I doubt if they are going to wreck their own plan.



Oh they are behind closed doors scheming ways to take money off comfortable lifestylers. The subtle (or not so subtle) way to redistribute other peoples money.


----------



## Logique (15 March 2018)

Labor thinks they're going after a privileged group of superannuants, but this policy will most hurt the people at the bottom end, with small retirement balances.  They couldn't use the rules to build large balances.

If Bill Shorten wants to make money out of dividend imputation, he should start by giving up his own franking credits.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

Logique said:


> If Bill Shorten wants to make money out of dividend imputation, he should start by giving up his own franking credits.




And if he set an example you would expect everyone to do the same without complaint ?


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2018)

Logique said:


> The opposition has belled the cat.  They're coming after Superannuation, and this is just the start.




That is the underlying message, that needs to be heeded.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2018)

Actually silly billy, may well have just lost the unlosable election.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Actually silly billy, may well have just lost the unlosable election.




That was my first thought. It's almost like they don't want to be elected? Maybe he's saving us from Wong and Tanyia?


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Actually silly billy, may well have just lost the unlosable election.



You might be surprised. I work with thousands of people in West Sydney and I haven't met anyone there who even knows what imputation credits are - despite their conundrum of understanding the complexities of superannuation divvy payouts. Most of them have no money or are in debt.

To them the share market and divvies is all about keeping the latte hot for the toffs


----------



## tech/a (15 March 2018)

Weatherall AND Shorten.

God help us.
There is no God so we would be stuffed.


----------



## basilio (15 March 2018)

The  move to challenge refunds of franking credits (vs just using them against taxable income) could end up exceptionally shrewd.

$8.5billion a year up for redistribution. Much of it from the very wealthy who frankly have done exceptionally well to date.
I reckon Shorten will reimburse  "legitimate" pensioners who have been disadvantaged at whatever that will cost. That will leave around $8billion to  improve services, cut low to middle class taxes, support legit business  needs, reduce the deficit.  Could be very attractive.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2018)

basilio said:


> That will leave around $8billion to  improve services, cut low to middle class taxes, .




I wouldn't bet on that, middle class welfare, has been a pet hate of Labor, for years.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2018)

basilio said:


> The  move to challenge refunds of franking credits (vs just using them against taxable income) could end up exceptionally shrewd.
> 
> $8.5billion a year up for redistribution. Much of it from the very wealthy who frankly have done exceptionally well to date.
> I reckon Shorten will reimburse  "legitimate" pensioners who have been disadvantaged at whatever that will cost. That will leave around $8billion to  improve services, cut low to middle class taxes, support legit business  needs, reduce the deficit.  Could be very attractive.




Will also result in less dividends and more company equity to expand the business


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Will also result in less dividends and more company equity to expand the business




Or send overseas.


----------



## SuperGlue (17 March 2018)

basilio said:


> I reckon Shorten will reimburse "legitimate" pensioners who have been disadvantaged at whatever that will cost. That will leave around $8billion to improve services, cut low to middle class taxes, support legit business needs, reduce the deficit. Could be very attractive.




Gives with one hand and takes away with the other.
Makes them look good doesn't it.

Could be very attractive for them to go on another spending spree like the previous school & roof insulation program.

What about "pension bracket creep" for borderline self funded retirees who rely on dividends as the years go by?
Hopefully they'll be dead by then.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2018)

SuperGlue said:


> Gives with one hand and takes away with the other.
> Makes them look good doesn't it.




Saving $8 billion dollars is  worthwhile .


----------



## bellenuit (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Saving $8 billion dollars is  worthwhile .




Saving? Saving is when you cut spending, not increase taxes.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Saving? Saving is when you cut spending, not increase taxes.




Taxes haven't increased, some people won't get a refund of taxes they haven't paid.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Taxes haven't increased, some people won't get a refund of taxes they haven't paid.



They are part owners of the company and pay tax at a higher rate. They are being double taxed.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Taxes haven't increased, some people won't get a refund of taxes they haven't paid.



They are part owners of the company and pay tax at a higher rate. They are being double taxed.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> They are part owners of the company and pay tax at a higher rate. They are being double taxed.




 They don't pay tax at all as I understand it.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They don't pay tax at all as I understand it.



They get paid a dividend, that is then taxed at 30%.
 The dividend is their money prior to tax. They pay tax on that dividend.
If its above their rate they are entitled to the difference.


----------



## bellenuit (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Taxes haven't increased, some people won't get a refund of taxes they haven't paid.




Taxes have increased. Where does your $8B come from otherwise. The effective tax rate on grossed up dividends received by a person who was previously under the bottom tax threshold has increased from 0% to 30% for fully franked dividends.

I am not saying that the move is wrong. Just calling a spade a spade.


----------



## TikoMike (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They don't pay tax at all as I understand it.




MoXJO is right. It's basic accounting 101.

You need to think along the lines of GST. The consumer at the end of the day should be the one who gets taxed, not the company/entity who bought the item from its supplier. I know GST is apples/oranges but I'm trying to use an illustrative example of it being the tail end that gets assessable for tax.

In terms of franked dividends, it's the shareholder who should get taxed because they get the benefit of the income. The company no longer receives the benefit of that income if it pays it out. If the company paid the tax associated with these dividends then the shareholder should be able to use this as a tax refundable offset as it's like the company prepaid the tax on their behalf. If the company retains the earnings and never pays it out as dividends, then it's the company receiving the benefit and the tax rate for that earned income remains 30% until they decide to pay it out as franked dividends.

So this new tax scheme by Shortonbrains is double taxation or theft. It would be similar to him saying that he won't pay the refund back for the excess of offsets you claim on PAYG Withholding or PAYG Instalments.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2018)

TikoMike said:


> So this new tax scheme by Shortonbrains is double taxation or theft. It would be similar to him saying that he won't pay the refund back for the excess of offsets you claim on PAYG Withholding or PAYG Instalments.




We are one of only three countries that has dividend imputation at all, so we can count our blessings, and if a little bit of that is clawed back in times of deficit then I won't be crying about it.


----------



## TikoMike (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> We are one of only three countries that has dividend imputation at all, so we can count our blessings, and if a little bit of that is clawed back in times of deficit then I won't be crying about it.



So you're saying only three countries are doing the right thing?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2018)

TikoMike said:


> So you're saying only three countries are doing the right thing?




Not necessarily in times of budget deficit. The Libs haven't been able to pull it back, at least Labor is coming up with ideas.


----------



## TikoMike (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Not necessarily in times of budget deficit. The Libs haven't been able to pull it back, at least Labor is coming up with ideas.



So if Labor came out and said we will no longer refund PAYG withholding and PAYG Instalments then I guess it will be a good thing because they are coming up with ideas to fix the budget deficit.

How about to fix the budget deficit start by reducing the offshore spending from Julie Bishop or even worse, when Penny Wong comes in. Seems like a better idea than punishing Australians.


----------



## Humid (17 March 2018)

So who are they going to burn a couple of hundred thousand fogies and the big end of town.
Gives them a bit of cash to negate the Fizzers tax cuts in the coming budget.
That’s the mail I’m getting.
Seriously baby boomers thinking they’re getting the short end.
Sell your mansions.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2018)

Humid said:


> So who are they going to burn a couple of hundred thousand fogies and the big end of town.
> Gives them a bit of cash to negate the Fizzers tax cuts in the coming budget.
> That’s the mail I’m getting.
> Seriously baby boomers thinking they’re getting the short end.
> Sell your mansions.



How about cut wasteful spending. Cut public service wage inflation. Before asking to pay more tax.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> We are one of only three countries that has dividend imputation at all, so we can count our blessings, and if a little bit of that is clawed back in times of deficit then I won't be crying about it.



The problem is our tax is just wasted when they get more. Everyone is already stretched. Rego, electricity,  food,  rent/mortgage  and on top of that labor thinks adding more tax is a good idea. Go through all the bloated public service wages and swing the axe.

Why the F would you be asking for anymore tax. Everyone has the opportunity to use it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Go through all the bloated public service wages and swing the axe.




Don't you think the Liberals would have already done that ? 

They have been in 4+ years and made big noises about sacking 16,000 public servants but it hasn't made much difference to the bottom line.


----------



## Humid (18 March 2018)

Let’s face it, they’ve run out of things to sell.

They’re just looking for people to screw with the least collateral damage to the party on vote day


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 March 2018)

Tax cuts are a vote gimmick. It means somewhere else has to take a hit to fill the gap.


----------



## SuperGlue (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> The problem is our tax is just wasted when they get more.




Hear, hear.....


----------



## SuperGlue (18 March 2018)

The people has spoken in the South Australian election.
Liberal to form government for the first time in 16 years.


----------



## bellenuit (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Not necessarily in times of budget deficit. The Libs haven't been able to pull it back, at least Labor is coming up with ideas.




You come across to me as someone who believes that the government owns 100% of everything that an individual or company earns. In other words, an extreme communist.

Anything that the government doesn't take from that 100% is a concession. 

An economy based on your ideas would end up like Venezuela or Zimbabwe.


----------



## Humid (18 March 2018)

To come to that conclusion from that quote you come across as someone who should lay of the piss


----------



## bellenuit (18 March 2018)

Humid said:


> To come to that conclusion from that quote you come across as someone who should lay of the piss




I didn't come to the conclusion from that quote, but from everything Rumpole has said to date in relation to tax.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

bellenuit said:


> You come across to me as someone who believes that the government owns 100% of everything that an individual or company earns. In other words, an extreme communist.




Thanks for that, best laugh I've had today. 

You must be joking if you think that just because a Liberal government gave high wealth individuals  and companies tax breaks that they never should have got that it's therefore daylight robbery to claw a bit of that back when we have a budget deficit and debt that was a "disaster" according to the Libs and is now even worse since they got in.

And if you think that the deficit should be corrected by spending cuts then why hasn't that been done under a Liberal government ? And why are they going to make it worse with an unfunded $60 billion corporate tax cut when most economists think that it will barely achieve anything ?

The revenue side has to be looked at if we are going to pay for not only schools and hospitals but expensive submarines and jet fighters and maybe you would like to make some suggestions how that should be done ?


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Tax cuts are a vote gimmick. It means somewhere else has to take a hit to fill the gap.



You are welcome to pay more tax if you want. How about donating half of your total wages


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Thanks for that, best laugh I've had today.
> 
> You must be joking if you think that just because a Liberal government gave high wealth individuals  and companies tax breaks that they never should have got that it's therefore daylight robbery to claw a bit of that back when we have a budget deficit and debt that was a "disaster" according to the Libs and is now even worse since they got in.
> 
> ...



The have been making spending cuts and were blocked by the senate.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> The have been making spending cuts and were blocked by the senate.




Because they were aimed at the people who could least afford them.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Because they were aimed at the people who could least afford them.



Well then you seem to be jumping around a bit. Pensioners are getting hit and you are rubbing your hands together.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Well then you seem to be jumping around a bit. Pensioners are getting hit and you are rubbing your hands together.




A few pensioners may suffer from this measure, but I would say that Labor would probably hand out some sweeteners for them.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> A few pensioners may suffer from this measure, but I would say that Labor would probably hand out some sweeteners for them.



Waste of time really isn't it. Its available for any of  the public to use. Or labor dwindles it down to pork roll pensioners.

 Pollies will probably give themselves a pay rise with the takings.

Both tax parties are to gutless for proper tax reform. Although Dutton seems heartless enough to give it a spin.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Well then you seem to be jumping around a bit. Pensioners are getting hit and you are rubbing your hands together.




Self funded pensioners, by and large don't vote Labor so the potential downside is the, mainly Liberal/Murdoch inspired, outrage sympathy vote.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Self funded pensioners, by and large don't vote Labor so the potential downside is the, mainly Liberal/Murdoch inspired, outrage sympathy vote.



Labor wants everyone to rely on government benefits and services. Opens up their voting base. Same reason they support select big business and certain industry, they can unionize the workforce.
Labor threw this policy at us as a "look at me saving the budget".

Everyone that gives it a go can use this dividend strategy, to make life a bit easier. I was dirt dirt poor to start with. I used financial strategies that were available to everyone, to get ahead. 

Labor would be happy double taxing us to pay for its largesse.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Labor would be happy double taxing us to pay for its largesse.




Care to mention what party introduced dividend imputation ?


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Care to mention what party introduced dividend imputation ?



Libs put it in its current form.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Libs put it in its current form.




But which party actually introduced it ?


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> But which party actually introduced it ?



Libs 
In its current form.
Labor party lost its way a long time ago, as did the libs. And there is nothing on the horizon.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Labor wants everyone to rely on government benefits and services. Opens up their voting base. Same reason they support select big business and certain industry, they can unionize the workforce.
> Labor threw this policy at us as a "look at me saving the budget".
> 
> Everyone that gives it a go can use this dividend strategy, to make life a bit easier. I was dirt dirt poor to start with. I used financial strategies that were available to everyone, to get ahead.
> ...





No, Labor through it out there for the Batman election as a litmus test of how unpopular the Libs are, even with contentious legislation like imputation therapy. It was designed as a slap in the face for Malcolm and it came off.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 March 2018)

SuperGlue said:


> The people has spoken in the South Australian election.
> Liberal to form government for the first time in 16 years.



I thought a socially responsible clean and green policy would have got Labor over the line.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> You are welcome to pay more tax if you want. How about donating half of your total wages



Done. The next years wage to the gov. for free. I will move to N.Z. where the pastures are greener and teach them a thing or two about taxation reform.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> No, Labor through it out there for the Batman election as a litmus test of how unpopular the Libs are, even with contentious legislation like imputation therapy. It was designed as a slap in the face for Malcolm and it came off.



They were against the Greens not the Libs. I would have thought the S.A. election shows the Libs are still in with a definite chance.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> They were against the Greens not the Libs. I would have thought the S.A. election shows the Libs are still in with a definite chance.





That's not how politics is played. The Labs wanted to show they can win an election against an unassailable lead and managed a 3% swing in their favour instead.

That the Libs didn't field a candidate is seen as avoiding a result showing a swing against them and preventing preferences to labor amongst its flock. They were hoping a bleed into the Greens, which didn't happen.

The federal electorate has been detuning itself from party obsequence. The SA State election is just change after a ragged 12 months.

Shorten has consolidated his position and both Malcolm and Richard are in strife from within now


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> No, Labor through it out there for the Batman election as a litmus test of how unpopular the Libs are, even with contentious legislation like imputation therapy. It was designed as a slap in the face for Malcolm and it came off.



How many throw away candidates did labor field? 
Put up independents that run green mantra to dilute the vote. 
They do it consistently in my electorate.

Greens simply lost this due to infighting. Why would libs bother wasting money on a safe seat.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> How many throw away candidates did labor field?
> Put up independents that run green mantra to dilute the vote.
> They do it consistently in my electorate.
> 
> Greens simply lost this due to infighting. Why would libs bother wasting money on a safe seat.





It doesn't matter what excuses are thrown up, because it only shows ineptitude at reading the electorate and party disarray.

The Libs were very open in stating they wouldn't run a candidate that could translate into prefereces to Labor. It backfired and was a mistake Malcolm could not afford.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> It doesn't matter what excuses are thrown up, because it only shows ineptitude at reading the electorate and party disarray.
> 
> The Libs were very open in stating they wouldn't run a candidate that could translate into prefereces to Labor. It backfired and was a mistake Malcolm could not afford.



I think labor strategy is miles in front of the Liberals. I think money is becoming an issue though. Keep it for swing seats rather than lost causes.
They also don't want to be seen giving preferences to the greens. They have sold out their base enough already.


----------



## bellenuit (18 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Thanks for that, best laugh I've had today.
> 
> You must be joking if you think that just because a Liberal government gave high wealth individuals  and companies tax breaks that they never should have got that it's therefore daylight robbery to claw a bit of that back when we have a budget deficit and debt that was a "disaster" according to the Libs and is now even worse since they got in.




If you read my posts you will see that I am not against this measure (though I think the issue will be the implementation). What intrigues me is your terminology. Calling it "savings" when it is an increased tax take. And previously, your posts suggesting companies should only be allowed carry forward tax losses for just a few years. As I say, it gives the impression that we owe everything to the government and ought to be grateful if they concede to allow us to keep some of it to live on.

In relation to dividend imputation, IMO the problem isn't so much the elimination of the tax refund for those whose tax rate is less than the company rate, it is the drastic change this will have on self-funded retirees in particular. They have structured their finances to avail of these tax credits and it is not something they can change overnight to regain their same level of after tax income. I believe that Shorten has suggested that they look at property as an alternative (I only glanced at the headline, but didn't read the full article). To move from shares into property requires liquidation of shares which would then mean having to pay capital gains tax and there can be huge issues with property if the retiree requires funds to cover some unexpected contingency.

In regards your claim that only 3 countries have a dividend imputation system (I assume you are correct), don't forget that many other countries have a much more favourable capital gains tax regime in relation to shares. For example, in the US:

_In 2017, the capital gains rate for those in the 10% and 15% income tax brackets is 0%, meaning those who earn the least are not required to pay any income tax on profits from investments held longer than one year. For those in the 25% to 35% tax brackets, the capital gains tax is 15%. For the wealthiest citizens who fall into the 39.6% income tax bracket, the capital gains rate is still only 20%._

What is likely to happen if Shorten introduces this policy is that it will cause a change in the way companies distribute profits that will in the end negate much of what Shorten is trying to achieve. So the net result is he will have upset a lot of people with little fiscal achievement.

I don't know what measures local businesses will employ, but in the US many companies pay little out in dividends (2% of the share price is regarded as fairly high), instead re-investing in the business. This is because it is more beneficial for investors to take their profits through capital gains which are taxed favourably than from dividends which are taxed at their marginal rate.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> I think labor strategy is miles in front of the Liberals. I think money is becoming an issue though. Keep it for swing seats rather than lost causes.
> They also don't want to be seen giving preferences to the greens. They have sold out their base enough already.




They have cemented their position as the centrist party. 

In Batman there was a Bernardi candidate who only scored in the 6 percentile ... that is where the Lib vote should have gone, but it didn't get close to the ~historical 20% conservatives total.

I'm getting worried at the specter of a Labor govt with their quota based, rather than merit based members and the absence of traditional Labor fundamentals they originally championed.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> They were against the Greens not the Libs. I would have thought the S.A. election shows the Libs are still in with a definite chance.




At last look the Libs had a swing away from them of about 7%.

Repeated nationally, that would be disastrous for them.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 March 2018)

bellenuit said:


> As I say, it gives the impression that we owe everything to the government and ought to be grateful if they concede to allow us to keep some of it to live on.



Social order and quality of life need to be paid for. The more one earns the more one pays. This means the less earners have access to a better quality of life which they (by choice, intellect or lack of earning capacity) paid less for. The less earners should be thankful for what they have. The _more earners should be given star treatment_ for paying the bulk of societies life quality.

I will work the Easter public holidays and pay significantly more tax but will receive the same benefits of that tax as Barry Bludger next door.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> They have cemented their position as the centrist party.
> 
> In Batman there was a Bernardi candidate who only scored in the 6 percentile ... that is where the Lib vote should have gone, but it didn't get close to the ~historical 20% conservatives total.
> 
> I'm getting worried at the specter of a Labor govt with their quota based, rather than merit based members and the absence of traditional Labor fundamentals they originally championed.



Ged kearney is hardly a centrist. 

I'm worried about where all these SJW tossers will lead us. There are more people fighting back against it. A lot get destroyed- business wise/socially.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm getting worried at the specter of a Labor govt with their quota based, rather than merit based members and the absence of traditional Labor fundamentals they originally championed.




Not enough hard heads in the Labor Party today. 

No Lindsay Tanner. no Keating, no Peter Walsh.

All soft and squidgy, but after six years of nothingness from the Libs, what else ?


----------



## Knobby22 (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Not enough hard heads in the Labor Party today.
> 
> No Lindsay Tanner. no Keating, no Peter Walsh.
> 
> All soft and squidgy, but after six years of nothingness from the Libs, what else ?



Don't agree. I think Bowen has plenty. And he seems to be able to convince the party. Shorten is willing to take some risks. The baby boomers are now on the way out and the next generation are sick of the largesse they are still receiving. Change is inevitable. It's the Libs that look fragile and with Abbotts aim to make sure Turnbull doesn't get re-elected, it's looking more and more like Shorten will be our next Prime Minister.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Don't agree. I think Bowen has plenty. And he seems to be able to convince the party. Shorten is willing to take some risks. The baby boomers are now on the way out and the next generation are sick of the largesse they are still receiving. Change is inevitable. It's the Libs that look fragile and confused.




I think Bowen is competent and hard working but you need a strong economic team to moderate the efforts of the big spenders and he can't do it alone.

Labor seems to be going down the road of social inclusion by quota at the expense of talent in my view and it could cost them later on.


----------



## dutchie (19 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> it's looking more and more like Shorten will be our next Prime Minister.




If Shorten gets elected then I'm going to need a safe space.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Don't agree. I think Bowen has plenty. And he seems to be able to convince the party. Shorten is willing to take some risks. The baby boomers are now on the way out and the next generation are sick of the largesse they are still receiving. Change is inevitable. It's the Libs that look fragile and with Abbotts aim to make sure Turnbull doesn't get re-elected, it's looking more and more like Shorten will be our next Prime Minister.



Labor is in with a very good chance. God help us when he is put up on the world stage, the dirty little union grub.
Libs have had very good dealings with trade and Turnbulls negotiating skills are central to that.
They are giving it a red hot crack at growing the pie rather then Shortens "Taxes are great" mantra.

Even though the left portray him as the evil overlord, Dutton has a very effective and no nonsense style of getting things done. He also doesn’t shy away from responsibility.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2018)

How the tax system slugs the youth. 

What Shorten is trying to fix, but the grey vote is very strong these days.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...stralian-youth-ian-verrender-analysis/9561726


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> How the tax system slugs the youth.
> 
> What Shorten is trying to fix, but the grey vote is very strong these days.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...stralian-youth-ian-verrender-analysis/9561726



Self funded retirees should be encouraged. Shorten is looking for a tax grab.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Self funded retirees should be encouraged. Shorten is looking for a tax grab.




Paying no tax on super after 60 is pretty encouraging.


----------



## Logique (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying no tax on super after 60 is pretty encouraging.



And how long do you think that will last under a Labor/Greens government?

Because Labor/Greens are currently in the process of re-classifying retirees as fat-cat class enemies.

When Shorten, Plibersek and Natali offer up their franking credits to the common good, then they might earn some credibility. Don't hold your breath!


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying no tax on super after 60 is pretty encouraging.



You have to be kidding, next cab off the rank, no lump sum withdrawls, then you will have to use all super balance before you qualify for any pension. Can't wait and see the plebs choke when that is brought in.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying no tax on super after 60 is pretty encouraging.



65 and thats if you make it. Better then being a dole bludger all your life and then sucking back on the pension.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> 65 and thats if you make it. Better then being a dole bludger all your life and then sucking back on the pension.




I think you will find that it is 60.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying no tax on super after 60 is pretty encouraging.



Why would someone who retires, with less than $300,000 in super, leave it in super?
When the first $18,000 of earnings is tax free outside super.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

Logique said:


> And how long do you think that will last under a Labor/Greens government?




Wait and watch the run on super, in the coming months.

https://thewest.com.au/business/your-money/your-money-pensions-to-rise-on-tuesday-ng-b88775355z

It's a no brainer.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you will find that it is 60.



My mistake I'm thinking pension age.


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Wait and watch the run on super, in the coming months.
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/business/your-money/your-money-pensions-to-rise-on-tuesday-ng-b88775355z
> 
> It's a no brainer.



Gee whiz. Go to work on an average income and get twice as much as the pension. Lol.


----------



## Tisme (19 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Gee whiz. Go to work on an average income and get twice as much as the pension. Lol.




Yeah just keep working until you drop I say


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Yeah just keep working until you drop I say



I think that is the long game, the medium game will be spend all your super before a pension kicks in and the short game will be tax super the same as income.


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2018)

I think there's a hidden message in some of these posts.

Never stand between a conservative and their cash handouts 



SirRumpole said:


> I think you will find that it is 60.



Yes and no - sort of...

It's 60 if you retire but 65 if you stay at work.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I think there's a hidden message in some of these posts.
> 
> Never stand between a conservative and their cash handouts




And other socialist messages of, don't worry it'll never happen, trust us.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I think there's a hidden message in some of these posts.
> 
> Never stand between a conservative and their cash handouts



Entitled tax refund, on money they worked for, payed tax on, then invested.
Pension is cash hand out.
Why on earth would you ask to pay more tax, when they waste what they already get.


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> *Entitled* tax refund, on money they worked for, payed tax on, then invested.
> Pension is cash hand out.
> Why on earth would you ask to pay more tax, when they waste what they already get.



As yes.... that good ole sense of entitlement.

Every post tax dollar I invest with is capital gains taxed when I sell.

Because I pay tax I don't get a cash handout. Kinda ironic innit?


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> As yes.... that good ole sense of entitlement.
> 
> Every post tax dollar I invest with is capital gains taxed when I sell.
> 
> Because I pay tax I don't get a cash handout. Kinda ironic innit?



How is it entitlement?
You are open to use the dividend strategy.
Why is it better in the governments  hand?

Capital gains is taxed at 50% after a year? 
How do you not get your "cash hand out"?


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> How is it entitlement?
> You are open to use the dividend strategy.
> Why is it better in the governments  hand?



Because it's better spent on hospitals, roads, education, security.

Not for use and abuse of an unsustainable tax loophole.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Because it's better spent on hospitals, roads, education, security.
> 
> Not for use and abuse of an unsustainable tax loophole.



Wow, thats what your going with.
Maybe we need a box to tick on tax returns so you beatniks can donate another 10% of wages to the taxman.

It's hardly a tax loophole.


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Wow, thats what your going with.
> Maybe we need a box to tick on tax returns so you beatniks can donate another 10% of wages to the taxman.
> 
> It's hardly a tax loophole.



Be assured I pay more than enough tax without the need to continue being slugged by the gimme gimme conservative welfare fraternity 

I've never had help from the Govt. No first home buyers' grant, no free stamp duty, no $900 cash handout (because my income from two jobs disqualified me), no baby bonus, no FTB, PPL

I pay nearly half of my income in tax and guess what happens when I ask for some of it back to pay for the running of the country for future generations? I get confronted by all the sooks that are getting hard done by 

Australia has become a welfare state because of populist schemes such as this and neg gearing etc.

We can't afford it. Enuff is enuff. Feel free to spell out your alternative plan to pay off half a trillion dollars of Govt debt


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> As yes.... that good ole sense of entitlement.
> 
> Every post tax dollar I invest with is capital gains taxed when I sell.
> 
> Because I pay tax I don't get a cash handout. Kinda ironic innit?




No, you don't get a cash handout on on capital gain, but you do on negative gearing?

But you will probably accept a cut in personal tax rates, that Labor will offer you, that will be funded from pensioners that have shares. Kinda ironic innit?

Just another sense of entitelement


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Australia has become a welfare state because of populist schemes such as this and neg gearing etc.
> 
> We can't afford it. Enuff is enuff. Feel free to spell out your alternative plan to pay off half a trillion dollars of Govt debt




Exactly right. Talk about entitlement, people getting $100,000 a year in super and paying no tax, companies earning billions and paying no tax, it's absurd.

Labor may not be politically smart in announcing some middle class welfare rollbacks, but it has to be done.

Too many tax dollars are disappearing to people who don't need it.

The 15% tax on super contributions should be in the frame too, it massively benefits high income earners who have spare cash to splash around.


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> No, you don't get a cash handout on on capital gain, but you do on negative gearing?
> 
> But you will probably accept a cut in personal tax rates, that Labor will offer you, that will be funded from pensioners that have shares. Kinda ironic innit?
> 
> Just another sense of entitelement



Not for me. And I don't do neg gearing. Like I said, I get nothing from the Govt.

A cut in personal tax rates for workers on three incomes? On what planet does this happen?


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly right. Talk about entitlement, people getting $100,000 a year in super and paying no tax, companies earning billions and paying no tax, it's absurd.




I reckon, what is absurd, is system that rewards those who spend everything, or don't work and continually attack and denigrate those who do work and save.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> We can't afford it. Enuff is enuff. Feel free to spell out your alternative plan to pay off half a trillion dollars of Govt debt



I probably paid more tax last year then you did in a decade. This year will be worse. I've got no problem paying whats owed. I do have a problem with taxing your way out as the first option.

As for paying it off. You grow the pie. 

You seen Turnbull on TV lately,  surrounded by all those Asians? 
He ain't ordering take out (you racist). He's negotiating better trade, with a whole heap of soon to be middle-class earners. 
He has also been working Trump, with the help of Trumps buddy Greg Norman.
They have been focused on trade. And its Tbulls area of expertise.

The libs have been doing a lot of the boring shite no one cares about. It will eventually get us in a good position. 
If Abbott got his way with his slash and burn then we would have been there quicker.

Have they wasted money... yes. But they have been pushing in the right direction of late,  after labors inward looking fkup.
Imo they need to push a lot harder then what they currently are.

Complete tax reform is whats needed. But that should have happened on Howards last term or Rudds first term. Now it will have to happen if they let it get too bad. Cause no one seems brave enough except Dutton.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Not for me. And I don't do neg gearing. Like I said, I get nothing from the Govt.



Well if you don't do negative gearing, or any form of tax subsidised investment, why are you talking about your capital gains?




PZ99 said:


> A cut in personal tax rates for workers on three incomes? On what planet does this happen?



It has happened on planet Australia, tax rates over my working career have dropped, several times and the politicians are talking about dropping them further, not increasing them.
So I was making mention that, the current suggestion of removing a tax advantage from one sector, is just about moving it to another.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Not for me. And I don't do neg gearing. Like I said, I get nothing from the Govt.
> 
> A cut in personal tax rates for workers on three incomes? On what planet does this happen?



Capital gains 50% discount?


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> and denigrate those who do work and save




Like me.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> But you will probably accept a cut in personal tax rates, that Labor will offer you, that will be funded from pensioners that have shares. Kinda ironic innit?



That's right. I don't believe anyone starts bouncing off the walls when they here the government say  tax cut. It must be the longest running joke in the halls of parliament, especially hilarious with a large budget deficit.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Well if you don't do negative gearing, or any form of tax subsidised investment, why are you talking about your capital gains?



Because I pay capital gains tax.


It h







sptrawler said:


> as happened on planet Australia, tax rates over my working career have dropped, several times and the politicians are talking about dropping them further, not increasing them.
> So I was making mention that, the current suggestion of removing a tax advantage from one sector, is just about moving it to another.



The purpose of lower tax rates is to stimulate the economy, so there's an end benefit.
By comparison refunding credits for 200,000 people does nothing, really.
So it's not just moving funds around sectors, it's the efficient use of revenue.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> It has happened on planet Australia, tax rates over my working career have dropped, several times and the politicians are talking about dropping them further, not increasing them.



Did you take into consideration the GSTax introduced in 1999 which silently removes large amounts of money from ones pocket.






Quarterly Goods and Services tax revenues ($millions) since 2000.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Because I pay capital gains tax.



Well then you are getting a tax break.



PZ99 said:


> The purpose of lower tax rates is to stimulate the economy, so there's an end benefit.
> By comparison refunding credits for 200,000 people does nothing, really.
> So it's not just moving funds around sectors, it's the efficient use of revenue.




The 200,000 people who are getting a tax break, were probably stimulating the economy for the last half a century.
You will find they were the ones who worked hard,did without, saved and invested.
While the other 90% either didn't work, or worked and spent everything and are now on a fully funded pension.
The problem with Australia, is we constantly reward pi$$ poor behaviour and punish good behaviour, I guess that's the down side of political correctness gone mad.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Did you take into consideration the GSTax introduced in 1999 which silently removes large amounts of money from ones pocket.




At least everyone pays it, which IMO is a fairer balance, than upping welfare payments while stripping incentive to save and endeavour.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> I probably paid more tax last year then you did in a decade. This year will be worse. I've got no problem paying whats owed. I do have a problem with taxing your way out as the first option.
> 
> As for paying it off. You grow the pie.
> 
> ...



LOL at Abbott getting there quicker with slash and burn. It was Abbott that made it worse by shattering consumer confidence. 

You don't grow the pie with slash and burn. You don't grow it by charging business a tax to pay for some generous paid parental leave. You don't don't grow it by charging $7 for a doc's visit and shoveling the money to an off budget fund. You don't grow it by making people work until 70 or slashing their penalty rates. and you certainly don't grow it by shutting down the entire auto industry.

Yes, I agree Turnbull's trade policies are better.

No, I don't think you paid more tax in a year then I did in a decade.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> You will find they were the ones who worked hard,did without, saved and invested.
> While the other 90% either didn't work, or worked and spent everything and are now on a fully funded pension.



There was a percentage who worked all their lives and missed a large chunk of compulsory superannuation compounding too.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

I also am not happy about getting taxed on all my work beyond the standard working 38 hour week. All overtime should be half taxed at the most. My extra effort and time, not societies nor the governments.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The 200,000 people who are getting a tax break, were probably stimulating the economy for the last half a century.



How is that possible when the tax break in question only existed for less than 20 years?



> You will find they were the ones who worked hard,did without, saved and invested.
> While the other 90% either didn't work, or worked and spent everything and are now on a fully funded pension.



Sure, but they are a separate identity to this debate.  



> Well then you are getting a tax break.





moXJO said:


> Capital gains 50% discount?




Nope.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> LOL at Abbott getting there quicker with slash and burn. It was Abbott that made it worse by shattering consumer confidence.
> 
> You don't grow the pie with slash and burn. You don't grow it by charging business a tax to pay for some generous paid parental leave. You don't don't grow it by charging $7 for a doc's visit and shoveling the money to an off budget fund. You don't grow it by making people work until 70 or slashing their penalty rates. and you certainly don't grow it by shutting down the entire auto industry.
> 
> ...



Didn't say I agreed with Abbott. But his slashing would have gutted areas that needed to be gutted.

Do you run businesses?


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> How is that possible when the tax break in question only existed for less than 20 years?
> 
> 
> Sure, but they are a separate identity to this debate.
> ...



So you don't invest beyond a year?


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I also am not happy about getting taxed on all my work beyond the standard working 38 hour week. All overtime should be half taxed at the most. My extra effort and time, not societies nor the governments.



Yeah a lot of my mates tend to avoid O/T citing the tax. 

Although some opt for a day in lieu instead.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I also am not happy about getting taxed on all my work beyond the standard working 38 hour week. All overtime should be half taxed at the most. My extra effort and time, not societies nor the governments.



Put it in super.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Didn't say I agreed with Abbott. But his slashing would have gutted areas that needed to be gutted.
> 
> Do you run businesses?



I did years ago. For about 5 years... during the recession we had to have. Took it over and turned it around to a level that enabled me to employ more staff. Open a second business to complement it.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> So you don't invest beyond a year?



No.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> No.



So you are currently wage slaving it.


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Put it in super.



I do o.t. to kill existing debt. Super is too far away but a percentage of o.t. is a good idea, thanks.



PZ99 said:


> Yeah a lot of my mates tend to avoid O/T citing the tax.
> 
> Although some opt for a day in lieu instead.



Time in lieu is an option but I don't like it because they offer time for time rather than 1.5 times like the pay rate.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> There was a percentage who worked all their lives and missed a large chunk of compulsory superannuation compounding too.




That is very true, my late father retired in the 1990's as an electrical supervisor and had minimal super.
But having said that, of all the people I have known in my working career, very few saved other than super.
I read a book a long time ago by Noel Whitaker, in it he said of 100 people only about 5 will become financially independent, I've found that fairly accurate.
Most spend everything they earn, and then get credit, to spend their future earnings.
After a lifetime of this, they wonder why they have nothing, and demand money be taken of the 5 that did save.
The funny thing is, Labor agrees with them, reason being most of them vote Labor.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> So you are currently wage slaving it.



I'm trading it. Sold a few stocks  for higher than today's prices


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> I do o.t. to kill existing debt. Super is too far away but a percentage of o.t. is a good idea, thanks.



Is it investment  or house debt?


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I'm trading it. Sold a few stocks  for higher than today's prices



Any reason you're not trading in a company structure?


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Is it investment  or house debt?



Motgage and small personal loan.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Any reason you're not trading in a company structure?



Not particularly. I'm a beginner at trading but the results are good. If they stay that way I might use the company.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Motgage and small personal loan.



Use the O/T to kill off the personal loan first I reckon - or consolidate it in your home loan.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> How is that possible when the tax break in question only existed for less than 20 years?




The tax break is mainly to SMSF that have shares and individual retirees who have small share holdings.
Those will be people, who have saved over a whole working career and paid tax over a half century. 
Well that is my case, and the case of people I personally know, that will be effected.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The tax break is mainly to SMSF that have shares and individual retirees who have small share holdings.
> Those will be people, who have saved over a whole working career and paid tax over a half century.
> Well that is my case, and the case of people I personally know, that will be effected.



And what about prior to the change in 2000 ?


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true, my late father retired in the 1990's as an electrical supervisor and had minimal super.
> But having said that, of all the people I have known in my working career, very few saved other than super.
> I read a book a long time ago by Noel Whitaker, in it he said of 100 people only about 5 will become financially independent, I've found that fairly accurate.
> Most spend everything they earn, and then get credit, to spend their future earnings.
> ...




That is soooo true. Presently in the 95% category by making bad decisions, bad timing and bad parenting regarding wise investment advice. Parents followed their parents where the end goal was the government age pension.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> And what about prior to the change in 2000 ?



Before 2000, most people expected to get a full pension, super only came in in the early 1990's.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Motgage and small personal loan.



Rent the house out then its an investment loan. Of course then you would have to pay rent. 
You could always work the boss to package accommodation. 

If you really want to push the boundaries get paid in silver or gold ounce coins that have the $10 or $50 denominations on them. But real value worth a lot more. Hey its legal tender.
I always wondered what the rules were around that. I'm guessing the taxman would pumpeth.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Before 2000, most people expected to get a full pension, super only came in in the early 1990's.



Right.... before 2000 most people who invested in high yield divvy stocks didn't do it to receive cash from franking credits. In any event, I find it hard to believe they would even qualify for a full pension. Most ASX200 stocks would've doubled their value in that time.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly right. Talk about entitlement, people getting $100,000 a year in super and paying no tax, companies earning billions and paying no tax, it's absurd.




That is a very pertinent point, and points out how full of BS Labor are, last election they were going to tax self funded pensioners who earned more than $100,000. I thought that was fair enough, because $100,000 is a good income and fair reward for endevour.
But now the Liberals have dropped what you can have in super, so most will earn well under $100,000, they are going to hit it further by removing a tax incentive.
Most people with say $1.5m, will have $1m in shares returning say 5%, the rest in cash or term deposit earning 2%. 
So a total return of $60,000, that is hardly brilliant, for the effort it takes to put $1.5m together. 
When you can get $34,000 pension for doing sod all.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

LOL... term deposits. They still exist ?


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Right.... before 2000 most people who invested in high yield divvy stocks didn't do it to receive cash from franking credits. In any event, I find it hard to believe they would even qualify for a full pension. Most ASX200 stocks would've doubled their value in that time.




Before 2000, wages weren't anything like they are now. It really took some effort to find the spare cash to invest. Check out historical share ownership in Australia, it has only been relativily recent, that a lot of people directly owned shares.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> LOL... term deposits. They still exist ?



when you haven't the capacity to recover from a financial loss, some money has to be held in a safe medium.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Before 2000, wages weren't anything like they are now. It really took some effort to find the spare cash to invest. Check out historical share ownership in Australia, it has only been relativily recent, that a lot of people directly owned shares.



Cost of living wasn't anything like now either. I would argue people were better off then then now in a like for like scenario. Home ownership has been declining for 3 decades.

I reckon the increase in share ownership has more to do with falling deposit yields than the wage index


----------



## Toyota Lexcen (20 March 2018)

If you own home, have holidays during working career, then get pension 

For a couple it's  a good system?


----------



## Tisme (20 March 2018)

Toyota Lexcen said:


> If you own home, have holidays during working career, then get pension
> 
> For a couple it's  a good system?





Agreed. It's a bit late waiting for retirement years until you go travelling, having wild sex on a populated beach, nude sky diving, rave parties, photocopying your bum, ... you know all the things you look back on with great fondness..............


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

*Australia's obscene dividend imputation debate about who is poor*

*http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...tion-debate-about-who-is-poor-20180319-h0xnun*

(open incognito  )


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> *Australia's obscene dividend imputation debate about who is poor*
> 
> *http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...tion-debate-about-who-is-poor-20180319-h0xnun*
> 
> (open incognito  )




Paywall unfortunately.

Could you quote some of it ?


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Paywall unfortunately.
> 
> Could you quote some of it ?



I might ask @Joe Blow for permission for that one.

But you should be able to view it with a private window.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I might ask @Joe Blow for permission for that one.
> 
> But you should be able to view it with a private window.




Ah good one, Private Window is good. Thanks.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> *Australia's obscene dividend imputation debate about who is poor*
> 
> *http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...tion-debate-about-who-is-poor-20180319-h0xnun*
> 
> (open incognito  )



Hit piece from a commie dh.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Hit piece from a commie dh.



Attacking the author rather than the article reduces a name callers' credibility to anyone with higher IQ than a Tony Abbott supporter. 

Try again


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Attacking the author rather than the article reduces a name callers' credibility to anyone with higher IQ than a Tony Abbott supporter.
> 
> Try again



Labor rusted on commie dh.
Yeah thats what I'm going with.


----------



## Tisme (20 March 2018)




----------



## Tisme (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I might ask @Joe Blow for permission for that one.
> 
> But you should be able to view it with a private window.




Incognito window brings up Pornhub with log in... need password STAT!


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

Its another call of the government knows better how to handle your money.
These schemes are open to everyone. Its not uber rich that use it. Generally its middle class (you know- the guys that pay for everything).

You can own a house and be called a millionaire these days. Doesn’t mean you don't struggle, or don't have cash flow problems. 

But the name of the game for raising taxes is "class warfare". And look at the labor grubs go.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Cost of living wasn't anything like now either. I would argue people were better off then then now in a like for like scenario. Home ownership has been declining for 3 decades.
> 
> I reckon the increase in share ownership has more to do with falling deposit yields than the wage index




I would argue that the cost off living, is very dependent on what you spend your money on, today there seems to be an infatuation with self indulgence.
Houses as a ratio to wages has increased, but as can be seen in W.A, where there has been a major correction, there has been little change in the spending behaviour of the young to take advantage of it, they are still spending everything on mobile phones, eating out  and O/S holidays.
The major difference I see between todays youth and that of earlier generations, is that this generation feels Mum and Dad are an income source for life and Governments seem to be supporting the belief.

Anyway probably enough has been said on the subject, when the retirees money runs out, the Government will then have to do something about the attitudes of the current generation and somehow get them to save.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> But the name of the game for raising taxes is "class warfare". And look at the labor grubs go.




The Libs have been playing class warfare for years. The Medicare co-contribution fiasco, trying to lower pension indexation, negative gearing that takes homes away from aspiring young people and gives them to the comfortably well off, 15% tax on super that again massively favours the well off, and a lot more.

The Liberal grubs under Howard spent like drunken sailors on their electorate and we just can't afford it any more. When Labor tries to do something for their electorate they are grubs, but anyone who doesn't like Labor's way can make their own suggestions for repairing the debt and deficit disaster that the Libs have left us with and propose to make worse with an unfunded company tax cut.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Labor rusted on commie dh.
> Yeah thats what I'm going with.



Sounds like a comment from unhappy people that can't get a free ride without working.

Abbott's planned taxes on the middle class were far more intrusive.

Not to mention their planned cuts to wages


----------



## Tisme (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Sounds like a comment from unhappy people that can't get a free ride without working.
> 
> Abbott's planned taxes on the middle class were far more intrusive.
> 
> Not to mention their planned cuts to wages




I wonder how many of the guilty are the ones who were on high public services salaries and super, retired at 55, own a negatively geared investment property or two ... even worse the ones who then went back as "consultants"?


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Sounds like a comment from unhappy people that can't get a free ride without working.
> 
> Abbott's planned taxes on the middle class were far more intrusive.
> 
> Not to mention their planned cuts to wages



Are you saying wage slaving is a right, not an option for everyone?
Every opportunity should be given for people to get ahead if they put in the hard yards.
Cash handouts are baby bonus, dole payments, pensions, school bonus.
 Its not a tax loophole if you would effectively be paying double tax.

And you have a lot more faith in government than I  do for handling our money.

Abbott was over the top. Wasn't a fan of his,  but he would have gutted out a lot.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Are you saying wage slaving is a right, not an option for everyone?
> Every opportunity should be given for people to get ahead if they put in the hard yards.
> Cash handouts are baby bonus, dole payments, pensions, school bonus.
> Its not a tax loophole if you would effectively be paying double tax.
> ...



Ok so you're claiming this policy is confiscating an opportunity to get ahead? Try selling that to a business owner writing off local investment - because that's where the saved money is going.

I reckon the Libs have sour grapes they didn't do this themselves.

Don't know where you're going with wage slaving.
Wage slaving is Workchoices style legalised employee income theft.

Faith is a five letter word starting with F. Never count on it.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Ok so you're claiming this policy is confiscating an opportunity to get ahead? Try selling that to a business owner writing off local investment - because that's where the saved money is going.
> 
> I reckon the Libs have sour grapes they didn't do this themselves.
> 
> ...



Wage slaving for a living is what you seem to be advocating for.


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Wage slaving for a living is what you seem to be advocating for.



Your assumption is incorrect.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Your assumption is incorrect.



Then come on over to the dark side of tax loopholes and tax structuring.
Theres free cookies!


----------



## PZ99 (20 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Then come on over to the dark side of tax loopholes and tax structuring.
> Theres free cookies!



Do they have rain checks? I'll be a self funded retiree in about a year. LOL


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Do they have rain checks? I'll be a self funded retiree in about a year. LOL



Lol
I'll pencil you in.


----------



## dutchie (20 March 2018)

Is Chris Bowen an idiot or hypocrite or both?
He's whinging about the scare campaign the Coalition are mounting about Labors new tax theft.
(mediscare, Chris ......?????)


----------



## Tisme (20 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I reckon the Libs have sour grapes they didn't do this themselves.
> 
> .




Ghost of GST in reverse colours?


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Ghost of GST in reverse colours?




Or maybe just awe struck, as to how it benefits Industry funds and therefore themselves. IMO

When they retire on taxpayer funded, indexed super, then get on the board of an industry fund board. Yeh hi five, LOL

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/03/winners-losers-franking-credit-changes/

What really cracks me up is, when Labor were in what from 2007- 2013, they did fluck all about any of it. Jeez I wonder why?


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2018)

Hopefully it will bring to a head the whole social scam of super, hopefully one of the media outlets will use this as a lever to highlight, the way super has become a political pawn.
Hopefully they can draw a line with, what is acceptable, to convince people to sacrifice their wages to super rather than to paying off a mortgage.
At the moment, super looks like the biggest scam perpetrated on the Australian public.IMO
To highlight this, how the hell Industry funds would be exempted, just shows a conflict of interest. IMO

Jeez just want to add, this is just my humble opinion, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Don't  take offence or legal action I'm broke, I appologise, I will retract any statement I've made, sorry to Bill and the boy's and Julia and the girls, just sorry to anyone who wants to say I've said anything disparaging.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2018)

Jeez I might not be in so much $hit, now Labor are reducing the shock and awe, suprise, suprise.LOL

http://www.afr.com/news/labor-leans...ers-from-franking-credit-plan-20180318-h0xnbi

Maybe they have realised, it is just another brain fart on the back of a napkin, that costs Australia $hit loads of money, when everyone pulls the flucking money out and spends it.
This is the problem with Labor they want to appease the spenders, but you can't do that by making the savers, spenders too.
Well they got front page, for two days, now tone it down, any publicity is good publicity.

Can't wait to see the fall out with super funds, over the next six months.
Absolute FWITTS, IMO
It is just sad, that they can't sit down together and sort the whole tax system out. IMO


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2018)

In the post below, just have a look at the amount of people who received a dividend, in 2015/2016.
Since then the amount you can have in the pension phase has reduced by a huge amount, which will have a huge impact on those numbers.
It will be another Labor fluck up, as usual.IMO
I just think Labor need to adopt a policy, any policy that will work for all.
No one is impressed with the Turnbull Government, why they would go completely left field, is beyond reasoning.IMO
Anyway, time for bed.lol


----------



## TikoMike (31 March 2018)

Am I reading this wrong or is Shorten going to allow more illegals into this country (open borders) or is he saying to rely more on the turn-back policies rather than have detention centers? Hopefully it's not the former, because it isn't working out so well in Europe.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/shorten-confirms-labor-may-shift-offshore-processing-position


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Am I reading this wrong or is Shorten going to allow more illegals into this country (open borders) or is he saying to rely more on the turn-back policies rather than have detention centers? Hopefully it's not the former, because it isn't working out so well in Europe.
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/shorten-confirms-labor-may-shift-offshore-processing-position




Mixed messages in that article. It's hard to say where he stands on this. Most Labor people realise "open borders" is electoral poison, if they are sane they won't go back to that rubbish.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2018)

He is testing the waters, in what he can and can't get away with.  He has been doing it a lot, to see what resonates with the electorate.
He leans whatever way the wind is blowing.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2018)

I stand by my belief we need politicians who are second born generations who don't carry the baggage of their or their parent's mother country.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> I stand by my belief we need politicians who are second born generations who don't carry the baggage of their or their parent's mother country.




So we certainly don't need an Abbott in that case ?


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2018)

> Pauline Hanson calls for Shorten to end alliance with Greens
> 
> PAULINE HANSON'S PLEASE EXPLAIN·FRIDAY, APRIL 6, 2018
> *MEDIA RELEASE*
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2018)

Pauline Hanson said:
			
		

> “By consistently releasing irresponsible thought bubble policies, the Greens have demonstrated they cannot be trusted.




Pauline said that with a straight face did she ?


----------



## PZ99 (6 April 2018)

Yeah right. So won the Batman election again?

Red Robin or Green Hoodie? 

In other news... Proposed changes to federal electoral boundaries announced today mean the Labor party will effectively gain three seats.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-06/federal-electoral-boundaries-redrawn-victoria-act/9626486

'aveagoodweekend


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> So we certainly don't need an Abbott in that case ?




I'm not being individually selective, the others can take a flying leap too.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Because it's better spent on hospitals, roads, education, security.
> .



It would be nice if that's what they spent it on. In reality,  thats not where it will go is it?


----------



## PZ99 (9 April 2018)

wayneL said:


> It would be nice if that's what they spent it on. In reality,  thats not where it will go is it?



Roads aside, historically the ALP spend more on these areas than the Coalition. 
Coalition usually just sell everything. Or cut funding.

Frankly, if Labor do save this 90 odd billion I'd rather they just retire some of the debt with it.


----------



## moXJO (9 April 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Roads aside, historically the ALP spend more on these areas than the Coalition.
> Coalition usually just sell everything. Or cut funding.
> 
> Frankly, if Labor do save this 90 odd billion I'd rather they just retire some of the debt with it.



Yeah its about ten times over priced.
$1 million for a 4 wall, straight gabled toilet block anyone.


----------



## PZ99 (9 April 2018)

moXJO said:


> Yeah its about ten times over priced.
> $1 million for a 4 wall, straight gabled toilet block anyone.



Well given that Malcolm Turnbull donated nearly double that amount to keep Tony Abbott as MP I'd say the figure might be closer to twenty times overpriced...


----------



## moXJO (9 April 2018)

I wonder if we can get FOI documents on some of these building projects to see where all the money goes. I reckon everything is about ten times over priced. 

Someone's getting a kickback.


----------



## PZ99 (10 April 2018)

Let us know how you go with those doco's


----------



## dutchie (10 May 2018)

"There will be no Carbon Tax under the government I lead"

“I am more that satisfied that Labor MPs through our vetting process will pass muster”

That's why people think Bill is a liar and wanker (like his predecessor).


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2018)

dutchie said:


> “I am more that satisfied that Labor MPs through our vetting process will pass muster”
> 
> That's why people think Bill is a liar and wanker (like his predecessor).




"A royal Commission into banks is unnecessary"

"Barnaby Joyce is eligible to sit in Parliament and the High Court will so rule".

Malcolm Turnbull (wanker +)


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## sptrawler (14 May 2018)

I certainly hope Bill becomes P.M,it is about time for a reality check.
As W.A has found, there is nothing like a dose of reality, to bring home the obvious. lol


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## Humid (14 May 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope Bill becomes P.M,it is about time for a reality check.
> As W.A has found, there is nothing like a dose of reality, to bring home the obvious. lol



 Is that Children’s hospital open yet?


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## Tisme (14 May 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope Bill becomes P.M,it is about time for a reality check.
> As W.A has found, there is nothing like a dose of reality, to bring home the obvious. lol




Has change been good or bad?


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## sptrawler (15 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Has change been good or bad?




It depends how you look at it, I personally think it is good, those who can least afford it, probably don't.


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## sptrawler (22 June 2018)

At last, some glimmer of hope, for Labor.
Silly Billy hasn't got a clue. IMO
He constantly bags, the fat cats, who is anyone earning a living, while hoping the rest vote for him.
Those days are gone, union membership is down to about 1 in 10 in the workforce, and half the people he is trying to connect with aren't interested in politics anyway.
Albanese is at least being realistic, with his focus.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...am-inspired-call-to-arms-20180622-p4zn5z.html

The blind belief, that most out there, are struggling homeless that just need a bit more welfare, is way of the mark.
The struggling are those who are trying to get ahead, but are constantly told to shut up, and get over it.
Who knows, maybe Anthony, will be the next John Howard.


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## PZ99 (29 June 2018)

Electricity Bills' captains' call has come back to bite him.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/bill-shorten-backs-down-on-company-tax-cuts/9923246


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Electricity Bills' captains' call has come back to bite him.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/bill-shorten-backs-down-on-company-tax-cuts/9923246




Quite a brain fade by Bill, what was he thinking ?


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## moXJO (29 June 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Electricity Bills' captains' call has come back to bite him.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/bill-shorten-backs-down-on-company-tax-cuts/9923246



That was fast.....


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## Tisme (29 June 2018)

sptrawler said:


> l
> 
> The blind belief, that most out there, are struggling homeless that just need a bit more welfare, is way of the mark.
> .




They all got plasma TV's....I didn't


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## sptrawler (29 June 2018)

Tisme said:


> They all got plasma TV's....I didn't




Yes, I've never seen an endless supply of gratuity, being a replacement for an earned income.

Nothing is appreciated as much, as something that someone has worked for, or sacrificed for.IMO
Maybe I'm just too old school.


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## Tisme (12 July 2018)

Think about it......


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## SirRumpole (12 July 2018)

Will Billy boy sue big bad Mark for defamation ?


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## Tisme (12 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Will Billy boy sue big bad Mark for defamation ?




I've heard that Hanson Young is onto it for the sexualised content of a woman lying in bed just waiting for a "shag".


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## dutchie (12 July 2018)

Shorten will be the albatross around Labors' neck at the next election.

They can't win with him as leader.


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## PZ99 (22 May 2019)

^ How apt for dutchie to call the result almost a year out 

Didn't take long for Shorten to resume the knife swinging. Just days after an election loss the dirty laundry behind the false ALP "unity" flag... is aired. I never did believe the party was united.

He needs to be dis-endorsed otherwise the next election loss will probably come with senate blood letting as well. Labor need to learn from the Turnbull *Abbott*oir experience.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...against-anthony-albanese-20190521-p51pni.html


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## sptrawler (22 May 2019)

PZ99 said:


> ^ How apt for dutchie to call the result almost a year out
> 
> Didn't take long for Shorten to resume the knife swinging. Just days after an election loss the dirty laundry behind the false ALP "unity" flag... is aired. I never did believe the party was united.
> 
> ...




Good call PZ99, from watching the body language between Bowen and Shorten, it' was pretty obvious Bowen would be Shortens puppet.
Albo is at least likeable and comes across as a decent human being, Bowen due to recent performances falls short. It will be interesting to see the outcome.


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## wayneL (22 May 2019)

Is it too late to clone Bob?


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## sptrawler (22 May 2019)

I just looked up at the poll, at the top of this thread, at least one poll got it right. With a BIG swing.


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## sptrawler (24 May 2019)

This is a good insight into Bill Shorten, obviously a nice bloke, who couldn't sell himself.

https://www.smh.com.au/federal-elec...enting-his-rise-and-fall-20190524-p51qts.html

Reminds me of Tony Abbott, even Bob Hawke said he was a nice bloke, just mad as a cut sake.
Both Shorten and Abbott will slide into the depths, without a ripple.


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## bigdog (25 May 2019)

Getting rid of Malcolm Turnbull in 2018 was one of the reasons Shorten lost!


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## macca (25 May 2019)

bigdog said:


> Getting rid of Malcolm Turnbull in 2018 was one of the reasons Shorten lost!




Probably the main reason BD, if Malcolm in the muddle was still there he would have lost for sure IMO


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## qldfrog (25 May 2019)

Should we stop that thread or anyone still see Shorten as a pm???
Unless Shorten decides to float around sending witchcraft curses  "a la" Abbott while munching garlic?


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## SuperGlue (26 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Should we stop that thread or anyone still see Shorten as a pm???
> Unless Shorten decides to float around sending witchcraft curses  "a la" Abbott while munching garlic?




Its a matter of time it will be* 'Is Penny Wong PM material?'*

She is cool calm and collected.


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## wayneL (26 May 2019)

SuperGlue said:


> Its a matter of time it will be* 'Is Penny Wong PM material?'*
> 
> She is cool calm and collected.



From the Senate?

She is an identitarian, not sure that is the overall mainstream political trajectory. She might get some votes on that basis,  but I can't see that being good for Oz.


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## PZ99 (26 May 2019)

Penny Wong - no thanks. She is Labors' Michaelia Cash.


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## SuperGlue (26 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> From the Senate?
> 
> She is an identitarian, not sure that is the overall mainstream political trajectory. She might get some votes on that basis, but I can't see that being good for Oz.




Interesting, learn something new today.
Looks like Penny has to go through the motions to be PM. Matter of time.

*Could the Prime Minister of Australia sit in the Senate rather than the House of Representatives?

While it’s not explicit in the Constitution,* government is normally formed by the party with a majority in the House of Representatives (perhaps by forming coalitions or making deals with others) telling the Governor-General they have the numbers to form government.

The Senate and Senate numbers play no part in the decision of who becomes the government.

This means that the person representing the probable governing party to the G-G will normally be a sitting member of the House of Reps, and will subsequently become Prime Minister.

*Definition of identitarian* - relating to or supporting the political interests of a particular racial, ethnic, or national group, typically one composed of Europeans or white people.

I doubt whether Penny is an identitarian but in any case she will definitely gain support from LGBTI and same sex marriage community.


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## SirRumpole (27 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Albo is at least likeable and comes across as a decent human being, Bowen due to recent performances falls short. It will be interesting to see the outcome.




Albo is a decent bloke, but so was Kim Beazley who never won an election.

Albo has also been around a long time and seen three election defeats which is likely to leave him a bit jaded.

I agree Bowen has blotted his copybook during the election and probably is not the best pick at the moment.

I would have liked to see Mark Butler stand, he's sharp and articulate and reminds me of a Keating style attack dog.

But anyway Albo has it, so good luck to him.


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## PZ99 (27 May 2019)

The last time the ALP won a majority Govt the opposition leader was from QLD.

QLD has the same population as Sydney... divided into 38 seats. Just sayin'


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## sptrawler (27 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Albo is a decent bloke, but so was Kim Beazley who never won an election.
> 
> Albo has also been around a long time and seen three election defeats which is likely to leave him a bit jaded.
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying, but the problem they have since Gillard and Rudd, Shorten kept a short reign on everyone.
So none other than Bowen have had any exposure, and the exposure Bowen got wasn't really very flattering, so it really only left Albo, Wong and Plibersek so it was a no brainer.
I think they will be grooming someone and Albo is just a stand in.


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## macca (27 May 2019)

It is also possible that people actually like Scomo and decide to give him a second term which means Albo gets the flick and Then Tanya says Now I will have a go.


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## Junior (28 May 2019)

macca said:


> It is also possible that people actually like Scomo and decide to give him a second term which means Albo gets the flick and Then Tanya says Now I will have a go.




I think Scomo will get a second term.  

ALP will need more than 3 years to convince the electorate they aren't going to come in and try to impose a big tax agenda ever again.  They scared off almost everyone over 60, small business owners, and the majority of middle income & high income Australians IMO.  Talking climate change action on one hand, whilst approving Adani on the other was outright stupid.


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## SirRumpole (28 May 2019)

Junior said:


> I think Scomo will get a second term.
> 
> ALP will need more than 3 years to convince the electorate they aren't going to come in and try to impose a big tax agenda ever again.  They scared off almost everyone over 60, small business owners, and the majority of middle income & high income Australians IMO.  Talking climate change action on one hand, whilst approving Adani on the other was outright stupid.




If the LNP don't get power prices down that could be a single point of attack for Labor.

Don't worry about their own policies, make the government the issue, there only needs to be a swing of a couple of seats.

High power prices hit everyone, consumers and business , a big mass of voters are affected .


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## Junior (28 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> If the LNP don't get power prices down that could be a single point of attack for Labor.
> 
> Don't worry about their own policies, make the government the issue, there only needs to be a swing of a couple of seats.
> 
> High power prices hit everyone, consumers and business , a big mass of voters are affected .




It would be a much smarter line of attack, than proposing tax hikes and labelling half the population as the Top End of Town.

If the Coalition have half a brain they will force power prices down by any possible means, and launch a few big renewable projects (and approve Adani).  That would please almost everyone.


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## HelloU (28 May 2019)

tone deaf - seriously
only one contender (were the others warned off? in a democracy where party members vote) - seriously
the policies that we banged on about for 2 years - well 1 second after the election loss we now think they are rubbish - seriously

both sides scare the hell out of me.


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## sptrawler (28 May 2019)

Junior said:


> I think Scomo will get a second term.
> 
> ALP will need more than 3 years to convince the electorate they aren't going to come in and try to impose a big tax agenda ever again.  They scared off almost everyone over 60, small business owners, and the majority of middle income & high income Australians IMO.  Talking climate change action on one hand, whilst approving Adani on the other was outright stupid.



If ScoMo does a reasonable job, he will be a shoe in for a second term, already Labor are struggling to be cohesive. 
I think labor should have taken the opportunity, to move on to the next generation, when picking a leader. Albo seems a nice bloke, but if he had the personality to keep the party in line, Shorten would never have made leader he had a lower popularity rating than Abbott.
Just my opinion.


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## Logique (29 May 2019)

SuperGlue said:


> Its a matter of time it will be* 'Is Penny Wong PM material?'*
> She is cool calm and collected.



Perhaps Wong could list her achievements as Minister for Finance and and Deregulation under PM Gillard, or as Minister for Climate Change and Water under PM Rudd.

Peevish Penny is unelectable. A good line in huffish indignation, not sure what else she has to offer. She hasn't had much to say either, about the post-election all male leadership of the party


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## IFocus (29 May 2019)

Logique said:


> Perhaps Wong could list her achievements as Minister for Finance and and Deregulation under PM Gillard, or as Minister for Climate Change and Water under PM Rudd.
> 
> Peevish Penny is unelectable. A good line in huffish indignation, not sure what else she has to offer. She hasn't had much to say either, about the post-election all male leadership of the party




Wong is a class above the other members of the un-elected swill and highly regarded by both sides of politics Corman in particular has often paid his respect.


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## Miner (29 May 2019)

Joe and rest of ASF team
Should we change this title or rather close it for obvious reasons.
Shorten is now a historical could be PM  - rightly  or wrongly from Labour or Liberal perspective.


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## PZ99 (29 May 2019)

John Howard was a historical could-be PM once (or twice)


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## bellenuit (29 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Wong is a class above the other members of the un-elected swill and highly regarded by both sides of politics Corman in particular has often paid his respect.




*Penny Wong refuses to shake Liberal senator’s hand*

*https://www.2gb.com/watch-penny-wong-refuses-to-shake-liberal-senators-hand/*


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## wayneL (29 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Wong is a class above the other members of the un-elected swill and highly regarded by both sides of politics Corman in particular has often paid his respect.



An identitarian that attempts to hide the fact that she is an identitarian;  I could respect her if only she was respect-able.

Also,  really trying to respect Albo,  but he's making it hard.


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## IFocus (29 May 2019)

Wong haters..........sigh, Wong refused to shake Birminghams because he lied and misrepresented Labors and the Coalitions positions, simple.

Note Wong praised Abbott for his public service even though he stood for ever thing she battled against......that's class, compare that to the politicised comment Abbott made about Hawke.

Lets compare Wong against the scandal riven, white board hiding, bogan, Cash.....save our utes ....vomit, really this is what a government minster believes. 

Thanks to Superglue

"*Definition of identitarian* - relating to or supporting the political interests of a particular racial, ethnic, or national group, *typically one composed of Europeans or white people*."


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## wayneL (29 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Wong haters..........sigh, Wong refused to shake Birminghams because he lied and misrepresented Labors and the Coalitions positions, simple.
> 
> Note Wong praised Abbott for his public service even though he stood for ever thing she battled against......that's class, compare that to the politicised comment Abbott made about Hawke.
> 
> ...




Please @IFocus, don't try to tell me your whole party isn't identitarian.

Also,  don't try to tell me Wong hasn't missed represented her opponents. Pulleeze.

Additionally, can your definition of identitarian according to you be any more racist.

You racist!

Identity politics encompass a whole plethora of issues regarding identity from race, sexuality, ethnicity, gender, etc etc etc

Come back to me when your faculties of critical thinking are engaged.


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## IFocus (29 May 2019)

It would be more useful if you stopped accusing (hating) others of your own behaviour.

Also would serve the forum as a whole better if you could actually put forward an argument on the issue  rather than insinuations and accusations of other members which severely undermines your own standing.


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## moXJO (29 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Thanks to Superglue
> 
> "*Definition of identitarian* - relating to or supporting the political interests of a particular racial, ethnic, or national group, *typically one composed of Europeans or white people*."



This is a badly defined definition slant imo.
At its core it is basically tribalism when talking about left or right spectrum. 

And we see it on this forum with the 'likes' we give members who we think have scored a point from the other side or who we define are aligned to our side.

Realistically we are slightly different shades of the same color, arguing over minutely differing points.

Authoritarianism left, or right is and should be the enemy.


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## sptrawler (29 May 2019)

The thread seems to be drifting away from Bill Shorten, and as miner says, he has run his race.
So maybe another thread needs starting.


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## bellenuit (29 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Wong refused to shake Birminghams because he lied and misrepresented Labors and the Coalitions positions, simple




One can always make excuses, but it shows she has no class.


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## SirRumpole (29 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> Also, really trying to respect Albo, but he's making it hard.




Some people are never satisfied.

What's your problem with Albo ?


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## SirRumpole (29 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The thread seems to be drifting away from Bill Shorten, and as miner says, he has run his race.
> So maybe another thread needs starting.




We can't start new threads in General Chat any more.


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## PZ99 (29 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> We can't start new threads in General Chat any more.



Yeppers, I'd say that's Joe's way of saying "It's Time" for stock chat now the election's over


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## sptrawler (29 May 2019)

I didn't realise,  sounds like a good move.


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## Joe Blow (29 May 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yeppers, I'd say that's Joe's way of saying "It's Time" for stock chat now the election's over




It's my way of saying that the General Chat forum has been killing ASF for a long time. I really didn't want to have to make these kind of changes but if I don't then it's all over red rover. Sadly, my hand has been forced.

The great shame is that it didn't have to be this way.


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## PZ99 (30 May 2019)

Ref's call Joe - if it's good for the site there's no argument from me.

It'll give me more time to repair the red rover


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## Joe Blow (30 May 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Ref's call Joe - if it's good for the site there's no argument from me.
> 
> It'll give me more time to repair the red rover




I just want what's best for ASF. That's my only agenda. I'm happy to change things back to the way they were if we can get more posts in other forums and restore the balance. If those who mostly post in General Chat could lend a hand, this may happen relatively soon.


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## sptrawler (30 May 2019)

Might as well give Bill the last word on the election.
It is the media's fault.

https://www.smh.com.au/federal-elec...or-s-shock-election-loss-20190530-p51sqt.html


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## Caveman (30 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Might as well give Bill the last word on the election.
> It is the media's fault.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/federal-elec...or-s-shock-election-loss-20190530-p51sqt.html



Not to mention that the LNP have done a helluva lot of campaigning in the last 6 years.


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## Smurf1976 (31 May 2019)

Joe Blow said:


> I just want what's best for ASF. That's my only agenda. I'm happy to change things back to the way they were if we can get more posts in other forums and restore the balance.



I definitely agree there's a problem when someone (anyone) looks at ASF and what they see is a page full of topics which have little if any direct relevance to investing.

Someone somewhere has probably calculated the optimum ratio of on to off topic posts for a forum but what I'll say is simply this.

If I buy a bag of apples and one apple is going rotten but the rest are fine well then I'll toss the rotten one in the bin, eat the rest and not worry about it.

If I buy a bag of apples and half of them are rotten and this happens more than once well then I won't be shopping there in future, at least not for apples.

Same goes for everything. 

One thing in particular that I think we can all do to improve ASF is to respond to questions, especially from newer members. That is so even if the answer is "no such thing exists" - if that's the answer well then it needs to be said. Unanswered questions in any context are always a bad look.

As for this thread, well the voters, the Labor party and the man himself have all decided that no, Shorten is not to be PM so the question is answered.


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## Joe Blow (31 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> One thing in particular that I think we can all do to improve ASF is to respond to questions, especially from newer members. That is so even if the answer is "no such thing exists" - if that's the answer well then it needs to be said. Unanswered questions in any context are always a bad look.




Although this thread has clearly run its course, I'll just post one more time and respond to this point.

Yes, you are correct about unanswered questions and it is one thing that I am always concerned about. When I started ASF the idea was to create a community; the stock market aspect was the second thought, not the first. I wanted to create an online community because I had been involved in other online communities and became addicted to participating in them. I was taken with the idea that a place on the internet could bring people from very different geographical locations and very different places socially together. On forums you get to meet people you never would have met in real life. The whole thing seemed far too interesting for me not to give it a go. So I did, and this community is the result.

Fifteen years have taught me a lot and I think the recipe for a successful online community is actually very simple:

1. Always treat others with respect and courtesy, whether you agree with them or not.
2. When engaging in discussion and debate always be constructive and serve the discussion.
3. Always help and assist others whenever possible, especially newcomers.

That's it. I could add "stay on topic" but those three are all we really need. Just some food for thought.


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## sptrawler (31 May 2019)

I would be first in line to get rid of this thread, but it might have legs left, Bill might be morphing into Tony Abbott.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...his-leadership-ambitions-20190530-p51sr4.html

Joe I guess the other problem is, politics in Australia have been so turbulent in recent years, there is always something to debate.
Your idea of no new threads, is a great move, another one would be close or amalgamate a lot of the existing ones, this would reduce the subject matter.
I certainly hope you can keep the forum going, my wife isn't interested in politics or investment, I would go around the twist without the forum.


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## PZ99 (31 May 2019)

Can't remember if I've suggested this prior or not. Other boards hide their Off Topic / Miscellaneous / General Chat / Slush Sections from non members so that visitors to this site only see the topics that are relevant to the boards' existence. I would recommend that here.

PS: I think Bill Shorten was a Tony Abbott during the Bloody Ruddy Gillard years myself


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## wayneL (31 May 2019)

Corporate leviathans?

I thought it was the racist, white supremacist, climate denying, greedy, stupid, selfish, etc etc etc, Australian electorate that was to blame?


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