# Scientology - Religion or Cult?



## The Mint Man (25 May 2007)

So whats your opinion? Im interested in what you all think.
IMO Scientology is a strange religion, if you can even call it that. To be honest some of the things they do makes them look more like a cult.
I find it very interesting how many celebs are attracted to Scientology why do you think this is? is it just the cool thing to do or a smart marketing angle to get 'normal' people to join?
One things for sure... it makes people turn strange and gives them the urge to jump on oprah's couch 

I would really like to see the full length doco on Scientology that the BBC recently filmed in which they were stalked at every moment of each day they were on the case, I wouldn't have just yelled at them, I would have knocked him out!

Please discuss.

Cheers


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## The Mint Man (25 May 2007)

I also have a question about its origin, I heared it has something to do with an alien that came to earth or something strange like that?


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## Sprinter79 (25 May 2007)

There's an absolutely brilliant episode of South Park about this cult.

Hahaha


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## wayneL (25 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> I would really like to see the full length doco on Scientology that the BBC recently filmed in which they were stalked at every moment of each day they were on the case, I wouldn't have just yelled at them, I would have knocked him out!
> 
> Please discuss.
> 
> Cheers



Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o79v1D_J5g
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqLNp4bbKIM
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wskevXsARs

Enjoy


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## Pommiegranite (25 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> So whats your opinion? Im interested in what you all think.
> IMO Scientology is a strange religion, if you can even call it that. To be honest some of the things they do makes them look more like a cult.
> I find it very interesting how many celebs are attracted to Scientology why do you think this is? is it just the cool thing to do or a smart marketing angle to get 'normal' people to join?
> One things for sure... it makes people turn strange and gives them the urge to jump on oprah's couch
> ...





How about a third voting option: "Joke" ?


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## tech/a (25 May 2007)

Actually Hubbard would be laughing harder than anyone!

Option 4-----Mega Business.


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## The Mint Man (25 May 2007)

tech/a said:


> Actually Hubbard would be laughing harder than anyone!
> 
> Option 4-----Mega Business.



yeh well thats why I was asking if the celebs are just doing it because its cool or are some of them on the payroll like their selling proactive solution 
while im trying to be a bit funny.... at the same time Im serious, are the celebs doing it for payola?


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## Sean K (25 May 2007)

wayneL said:


> Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o79v1D_J5g
> Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqLNp4bbKIM
> Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wskevXsARs
> 
> Enjoy



Thanks Wayne. 

I like the comments on psychiatry. 'Industry of death'. LOL


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## greggy (25 May 2007)

I got this info from the Church of Scientology Sydney website:
"Scientology is the study and handling of the spirit in relationship to itself, others and all of life. The religion comprises a body of knowledge extending from certain fundamental truths. Prime among these: Man is an immortal, spiritual being. His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime. His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized ”” and those capabilities can be realized. He is able to not only solve his own problems, accomplish his goals and gain lasting happiness, but also achieve new, higher states of awareness and ability..."
Huh, I'm still trying to work out what Scientology is all about. Reading its website made me more confused.  I think I'll stick to being a Catholic!


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## Kimosabi (25 May 2007)

Scientology Bunker and Runway in New Mexico

http://cryptome.org/cst-bunker.htm


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## stockGURU (25 May 2007)

Call me a cynic if you like, but IMO the only difference between Christianity and Scientology is 2000 years.


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## greggy (25 May 2007)

stockGURU said:


> Call me a cynic if you like, but IMO the only difference between Christianity and Scientology is 2000 years.




I would say that most people feel that Scientology is just a cult and a passing fad whereas Christianity is a long standing recognised religion. 2,000 years from now, let alone 200, people will be saying what was Scientology all about? Christianity will be around for eternity and does not Hollywood stars in order to further its cause!


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## giss (25 May 2007)

It's hard to understand how people get involved but it still seems to happen. The controversy about nigerian scams shows how gullible people can be.


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## Agentm (25 May 2007)

tech/a said:


> Actually Hubbard would be laughing harder than anyone!
> 
> Option 4-----Mega Business.





exactly.. and dangerous to boot..

they are not a religion nor a cult, but an enterprise.. well structured and very very well tuned, kate cebrano is one for instance.. 

do not underestimate their expertise in their methods, they are extremely potent in their applications of their methods

goog luck if you follow them, or what ever you follow..


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## breakeven (25 May 2007)

I noticed someone listed some youtube sites there are some other very interesting videos on youtube.  I find it interesting that scientology claims to be anti psychiatry when, I formed to opinoin after reading Dynatics by L Ron Hubbard upon which the "religion" is supposedly based, that scientology is just a cheap and crude form of psychiatay.  The organisation does a lot of good but is paranoid and was founded by a sci fi writer of dubious character.


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## constable (25 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> So whats your opinion? Im interested in what you all think.
> IMO Scientology is a strange religion, if you can even call it that. To be honest some of the things they do makes them look more like a cult.
> I find it very interesting how many celebs are attracted to Scientology why do you think this is? is it just the cool thing to do or a smart marketing angle to get 'normal' people to join?
> One things for sure... it makes people turn strange and gives them the urge to jump on oprah's couch
> ...




religon or cult? im still trying to work out the difference between the two!


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## stockGURU (25 May 2007)

greggy said:


> I would say that most people feel that Scientology is just a cult and a passing fad whereas Christianity is a long standing recognised religion. 2,000 years from now, let alone 200, people will be saying what was Scientology all about? Christianity will be around for eternity and does not Hollywood stars in order to further its cause!




Yes but 2000 years ago people said the same thing about Christianity and indeed at that time it was considered by many to be a "cult". 

The truth is that nobody knows what people are going to think about anything (including Scientology) in 200 years, let alone 2000, so in my view (and I am no scientologist) it's all speculation, including your assertion that Christianity will be around for 'eternity'.


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## cccc (25 May 2007)

Interesting question... one of the leading Constitutional High Court cases on what exactly is religion involved Scientology and yes, you guessed it, for the purposes of tax exemption status.

Scientology certainly left the HC scratching their heads...although they found that it was a religion for the purposes of s116, Mason CJ and Brennan J found some of the canons of Scientology to be ‘impenetrably obscure’ and could ‘readily appreciate’ why the trial judge came to the conclusion that Scien ¬tology was merely ‘a farrago of imitations of established religions’ 

If you're interested in reading their discussion in all its glory  you can view it here
Scientology Case

There is apparently evidence of Scientology adopting various aspects of Christian iconology in many US states as they legislate to remove their tax-free status.


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## Wysiwyg (25 May 2007)

greggy said:


> I would say that most people feel that Scientology is just a cult and a passing fad whereas Christianity is a long standing recognised religion. 2,000 years from now, let alone 200, people will be saying what was Scientology all about? Christianity will be around for eternity and does not Hollywood stars in order to further its cause!




How far into political ranks is the cult penetrating?Slipping through quietly and avoiding adverse publicity.


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## Sean K (25 May 2007)

constable said:


> religon or cult? im still trying to work out the difference between the two!



Yes Consatable, you are very right to state this. The modern 'religions of the book' ie, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are but Cults of Abraham. It's all there in the history of man's (and woman's) greatest idea. God.


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## wayneL (25 May 2007)

> *re·li·gion   *    (rĭ-lĭj'ən)  Pronunciation Key
> n.
> 
> 1.
> ...





> *cult*       (kŭlt)  Pronunciation Key
> n.
> 
> 1.
> ...



A fair bit of overlap in the meanings hey?


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## Wysiwyg (25 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> I also have a question about its origin, I heared it has something to do with an alien that came to earth or something strange like that?




Mint Man this video is a must see to get your appetite to know more whet.My direct experience inside is similar to the videos I have watched in the last couple of hours.My experience was 20 years ago and I`m surprised the cult has expanded this much to this day.
The exterior of the cult seems helpful and genuine but obviously the motives are not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWUasKX3FZE


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## insider (25 May 2007)

scientology is like self help books... big deal...


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## Sean K (25 May 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Mint Man this video is a must see to get your appetite to know more whet.My direct experience inside is similar to the videos I have watched in the last couple of hours.My experience was 20 years ago and I`m surprised the cult has expanded this much to this day.
> The exterior of the cult seems helpful and genuine but obviously the motives are not.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s
> ...



Hooley dooley, I have never looked into this organisation like this before. Truely concerning. This is incredibly disturbing, but only adds to my other concerns about human nature and our innate desire to search for meaning outside of ourselves. This damn intellect thing, which has allowed us to rise to the top of the food chain, has its downfalls. What a waste of energy, resources and life, cults and religion have become.


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## Wysiwyg (25 May 2007)

insider said:


> scientology is like self help books... big deal...




I don`t think you understand the malignance of this cult.Check out some videos or do some reading to gain a better understanding.The use of movie stars to portray a righteous organisation is part of the blindness.

How to be caught and what is common amongst the believers) -:

(a)unsure of your purpose in life
(b)need help to overcome loss
(c)*willing to be controlled/manipulated* (dominance and submission)
(d)desire to protect the cult whatever it takes
(e)weak mind 
(f)*GULLIBLE*
(g)young and impressionable
(h)searching for reasons why
(i)power seeking
(j)bored with life
(k)do something that everyone says not to
(l)willing to part with generous financial donations

but most of all....something to believe in (no matter how far fetched).
Isn`t it easy to see, standing on the outside looking in.

This video is about the *science fiction writer *who invented this crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI


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## billhill (25 May 2007)

sprinter79 said:
			
		

> There's an absolutely brilliant episode of South Park about this cult.
> 
> Hahaha




Ditto. One of my favorite episodes. I suggest people check it out if they can, its actually quite informative (oh and hilariously funny). Something about that show that can really show the issues for what they really are.



			
				Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> The use of movie stars to portray a righteous organisation is part of the blindness.




To true. One only needs to watch the news today to see the obsession in society for "stars". What better way to attract members then attract Stars who already have a cult following.


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## Wysiwyg (26 May 2007)

Kimosabi said:


> > Scientology Bunker and Runway in New Mexico
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## insider (26 May 2007)

I could care less about scientology and what everyone else is doing... Just as long as it doesn't have destructive actions... I like seeing bad people suffer... they deserve it... if any scientologist or anyone for that matter is destructive well i'll let you fill in the blank...


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## insider (26 May 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Kimosabi said:
> 
> 
> > That aerial is wicked...I had no idea they had advanced their dominance of the earth this far.What is next?
> ...


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## insider (26 May 2007)

Allow me to quote the You Tube clip

"They call them Wogs" LOL...  that's us

I call them 'Cultists'... Funny buggers...


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## insider (26 May 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> I don`t think you understand the malignance of this cult.Check out some videos or do some reading to gain a better understanding.The use of movie stars to portray a righteous organisation is part of the blindness.
> 
> How to be caught and what is common amongst the believers) -:
> 
> ...




Well I'm none of the above... I know a guy that loves to study self help books and how to successful and blah blah... He went into one of those churches and said that a lot of the teaching is similar to some of the self help books...


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## The Mint Man (28 May 2007)

So far only a few people have voted for 'Religion'. 
I would like to hear from those of you who voted that way and hear why you voted that way. Are you a member of the church? and if so can you please provide more of an insight as to why you joined the church, what do you think the church is about?. What appealed to you about it?

I would very much like to hear from those who have been a Scientology church goer only to turn your back on it for what-ever reason. Why did you join in the first place? and why did you end up leaving?

Cheers


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## Pat (28 May 2007)

insider said:


> Well I'm none of the above... I know a guy that loves to study self help books and how to successful and blah blah... He went into one of those churches and said that a lot of the teaching is similar to some of the self help books...




Insider,
From the above video's it would seem they are very expensive "self help lessons".
I am puzzled to see how such an orginisation can operate like this. Where do they get there customer's? How can people be so ignorant?
Whether it is a cult or religion, scientology is a joke.

P.S. If you mare a scientologist i mean not to offend.


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## insider (28 May 2007)

Pat said:


> P.S. If you mare a scientologist i mean not to offend.




How do you mare a scientologist?  I don't know whether I should be offended yet... lol


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## Pat (28 May 2007)

insider said:


> How do you mare a scientologist?  I don't know whether I should be offended yet... lol




LOL? Not sure insider, sometimes I like to make up words and sound stupid


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## kgee (28 May 2007)

I started to read their book dianetics years ago and got through to the point where they state that abnormally sized genitals (male or female) was a sign of mental disease...I still laugh about that one whenever I hear about scientologists


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## Wysiwyg (28 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> So whats your opinion? Im interested in what you all think.
> IMO Scientology is a strange religion, if you can even call it that. To be honest some of the things they do makes them look more like a cult.
> I find it very interesting how many celebs are attracted to Scientology why do you think this is? is it just the cool thing to do or a smart marketing angle to get 'normal' people to join?
> One things for sure... it makes people turn strange and gives them the urge to jump on oprah's couch
> ...







kgee said:


> I started to read their book dianetics years ago and got through to the point where they state that abnormally sized genitals (male or female) was a sign of mental disease...I still laugh about that one whenever I hear about scientologists




Rolling on the floor laughing at kgee.This level of awareness in the cult is hard to understand too.

OT III    SEPT. 1967

 Locating and auditing of body
                                    thetans on Incident I (first
                                    incident in MEST universe) and
                                    Incident II (incident which caused
                                    the degradation of these beings
                                    into body thetans and clusters
                                    as caused by Xenu approximately
                                    seventy-five million years ago).
                                    Emphasis on this level is ridding
                                    the pre-OT of body thetans which
                                    are conscious enough to respond
                                    to the auditing.  Available at
                                    Advanced Organizations and higher.
                                    Partially replaced by New OT V.



Quick ex. O.T. is not overtime but is *O*perating *T*hetan.After the hooks are sunk in earlier , passing through this level and beyond is without question.Once you believe it you progress from nutter to absolute raving nutter.In reality Xenu was a figment of LRH`s imagination.All his enlightened beings needed somewhere to progress didn`t they.

Bt the way, if you leave the cult then expect to be a `fair game` target.Targeted S.P.`s (not superior powers) *S*uppressive *P*erson  are basically trashed.

P.s. I don`t like hearing about people that have left in a coffin.


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## insider (28 May 2007)

kgee said:


> I started to read their book dianetics years ago and got through to the point where they state that abnormally sized genitals (male or female) was a sign of mental disease...I still laugh about that one whenever I hear about scientologists




Now does that mean abnormally large or abnormally small? 
I figured you might know


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## Pat (28 May 2007)

insider said:


> Now does that mean abnormally large or abnormally small?
> I figured you might know




I'd say both mate. They like to pick on people, and they get very jealous.


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## kgee (28 May 2007)

Yeah as I remeber it it was both and included mammaries as well


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## insider (28 May 2007)

Ok then what about normal size genitals of the opposite sex? Are sex changes ok?


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## insider (28 May 2007)

kgee said:


> Yeah as I remeber it it was both and included mammaries as well




As a guy I could get normal size "mammaries"... And they wouldn't have a problem...


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## Wysiwyg (29 May 2007)

If anyone saw the BBC John Sweeney interview then below is some of what he was up against.I have highlighted what I saw occur.Please remember that John was dealing with a PRO and his HOT BUTTONS.


 4.   Handling a suppressive T.V. interviewer

Purpose:  To train a PRO to get his message across in spite of the
'interviewer', in the few short minutes usually available on television.
*This is so that .... million people have no doubts after the programme
what the Scientologist stands for and what he is against.*
Method:  The PRO and interviewer face each other and the interviewer asks
questions.  The PRO attaches his message in varying forms to as many
answers as possible.  If the interviewer is SP he must be introverted as
in the hat write up, and then the PRO has his "say".  *The interview has
been successful when the PRO has got his message across to his
satisfaction.*
5.   Handling an SP

     a)  By overwhelm
Purpose:  *To train a PRO to be able to establish Ethics presence over an
SP reporter if the occasion arises, by such things as shouting, banging,
pointing, swearing.  To do this completely causatively until the poor
reporter is 'caved in'.*
Method:  The reporter and PRO sit across a table facing each other and
the reporter asks SP questions.  The PRO overwhelms without judgement in
answer to the SP question until he does it with reality, causativeness
and the overwhelm really reaches the reporter.  TR 1 is a part of this
drill - there is no point saying the words if they don't reach the other
guy.

     b)  By being knowingly covertly hostile

Purpose:  To train the PRO to handle an SP reporter by word alone without
the use of force as in (a).  *He uses the word as a rapier and plunges it
in at the reporter, so that the reporter introverts and drops the
question.*
Method:  The PRO and reporter sit across a table and the reporter asks SP
type questions.

*The PRO observes what would be a button in relation to the question asked
and throws this back with good TR 1 so that it reaches home*.  If the
reporter is introverted the PRO is successful.  If the reporter persists
with the same question the PRO should not re-press the same button - it
obviously didn't work.  He should drop it and use another one.  If the
PRO cannot think of a snide reply the reporter should just say "flunk,
you haven't handled me. Start" - or some such remark - but should not
tell the PRO what to say. When the confusion has come off the PRO will
be able to handle and have a big win.

Ref..http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/reporter.htm


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## The Mint Man (29 May 2007)

Well I sat down yesterday to watch the vids posted but Wayne/L's was taken down of YouTube

Still havnt had anyone answer my question by the way!


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## Pat (29 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> Well I sat down yesterday to watch the vids posted but Wayne/L's was taken down of YouTube
> 
> Still havnt had anyone answer my question by the way!




Mint man,
I'm not to sure any scientologists would be game enough to post. Also seems fishy that the vid's of youtube are no longer vailable, could the scientologists be onto us?


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## The Mint Man (29 May 2007)

Yes but if they really believe what they say then they should get on here and put their point accross... Im trying to give them a chance to do that.

Cheers


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## greggy (29 May 2007)

Judging by polling thus far, 48 have said its a Cult (including myself) whilst 3 have said its a Religion. IMO most people in the community regard Scientology as being a complete joke and full of ridiculous ideas.  One of my mates was sucked in to go into their Melbourne office and do a free personality test. They hooked him up to something like a lie detector and quizzed him.  After this free test, they put pressure on him to do something else, this time for a hefty fee.  Of course, my mate came to his senses and said no and quickly left.  Scary and nutty this cult is.


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## Rafa (29 May 2007)

to me, any group that FORCES you a give a significant financial contribution just for joining is a CULT!


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## Pat (29 May 2007)

Rafa said:


> to me, any group that FORCES you a give a significant financial contribution just for joining is a CULT!




Agree rafa, But I like the word 'manipulate' instead of "FORCES".


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## Wysiwyg (29 May 2007)

The Mint Man said:


> Well I sat down yesterday to watch the vids posted but Wayne/L's was taken down of YouTube





This is a couple of stories.Part of the Sweeney encounter.Be quick before they get pulled.Mr.Davis is a trained Pro who had an "overwhelm" win against Mr.Sweeney. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwTDvfjcUJU&am... =

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb5yRv3r3L4


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## kgee (30 May 2007)

MINTMAN  surely t's self evident?!?!


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## Sprinter79 (30 May 2007)

What's the difference between Scientology and, well, I dunno, something like Christianity?


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## Wysiwyg (30 May 2007)

Sprinter79 said:


> What's the difference between Scientology and, well, I dunno, something like Christianity?




Christianity = religious faith

Scientology = business


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## KIWIKARLOS (30 May 2007)

if you dont think christianity = business then your wrong.

Sure the whole meaning behind christianity is selflessness etc.

But those minister out at Hillsong driving around in BMWs and porches are thinking otherwise. Not long ago one of them was charged.

Most churches encourage tithing which is 10% of your pay to the church. I'm all for it if it went into the community but i bet most of it doesn't.


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## KIWIKARLOS (30 May 2007)

PS the vatican seems to be doing pretty well for a self ruling country with no economy to speak of?

I dont see them dishing out their cash to fellow christians around the world


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## Sprinter79 (30 May 2007)

I remember having to give money to the church (when I was made to go by my dad). If you passed the little wicker basket on without putting anything in, you were seriously looked down upon.

The various churches own some of the most expensive land going around too, don't forget that.


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## Rafa (30 May 2007)

no ones forced to pay out in christianity... if hillsong does that, then i would say they are bordering on a cult...!

i can only speak for the catholic church i go too....
we had a sermon last week which pretty much said monetary donations is an easy way out... if we really wanted to make a difference, its actions that matter most... eg helping out in soup kitchens, visiting the elderly, sick, poor via some of the many charitable arms like St Vinnies, etc.


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## rub92me (30 May 2007)

kgee said:


> I started to read their book dianetics years ago and got through to the point where they state that abnormally sized genitals (male or female) was a sign of mental disease...I still laugh about that one whenever I hear about scientologists



I think from that we can either infer that Tom Cruise's is average, because he's entirely sane, or that it is enormous (or pinkywinky) because he's bonkers. Now I'm confused.


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## greggy (30 May 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Christianity = religious faith
> 
> Scientology = business




Slightly wrong.

Christianity = religious faith
Scientology = cult (a pretty bad one at that).


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## Agentm (30 May 2007)

As to whether Scientology is really a religion, the Scientologists frequently boast that they were declared a bona fide religion. Actually this is not quite the victory they claim. The incident had its beginnings on January 4, 1963, when fourteen Deputy Marshals and several Food and Drug Administration Agents, or as the Scientologists said, "longshoremen posing as Marshals," raided the Scientology headquarters in Washington, D.C. and seized 100 E-meters along with several Scientology publications on the grounds that the E-meters were "misbranded."This was based on the fact that the attached literature, meaning Scientology literature, either claimed or implied that the E-meter was capable of diagnosis, prevention, treatment, detection, and elimination of the causes of all mental and nervous disorders such as neuroses, psychoses, schizophrenia and all psychosomatic ailments.Scientologists protested that seizing their meters and books was a form of "religious persecution," and they referred to the incident afterwards as the "book burning." They even wrote letters at the time to President Kennedy and Attorney General Robert Kennedy asking them to protect the Scientologists' religion, "even though you are of a different faith." Hubbard also expressed a desire to meet personally with President Kennedy for a conference to "come to some amicable answer on religious matters." No conference ever transpired.
While in April of 1967 a decision was returned for the government, in February of 1969, the United States Court of Appeals, in a split decision overruled it, saying that the seizure of the meters was illegal The FDA said whether or not Scientology is a religion was "irrelevant to the case." In their summary they stated that "... _Scientology_ has made out a prima facie case that _it_ is a bona fide religion, and since no rebuttal has been offered, it must be regarded as a religion _for purposes of this case_." (Author's italics.) So if the Scientologists have suffered a financial setback, it has been somewhat offset by a spiritual victory. Hubbard is really the winner all around. Not only has he become rich but no one has yet legally disputed his claim that he has founded a religion


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## Wysiwyg (30 May 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Christianity = religious faith
> 
> Scientology = business





Christianity = religious faith

Scientology = psychoanalysis based business


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## greggy (30 May 2007)

Agentm said:


> As to whether Scientology is really a religion, the Scientologists frequently boast that they were declared a bona fide religion. Actually this is not quite the victory they claim. The incident had its beginnings on January 4, 1963, when fourteen Deputy Marshals and several Food and Drug Administration Agents, or as the Scientologists said, "longshoremen posing as Marshals," raided the Scientology headquarters in Washington, D.C. and seized 100 E-meters along with several Scientology publications on the grounds that the E-meters were "misbranded."This was based on the fact that the attached literature, meaning Scientology literature, either claimed or implied that the E-meter was capable of diagnosis, prevention, treatment, detection, and elimination of the causes of all mental and nervous disorders such as neuroses, psychoses, schizophrenia and all psychosomatic ailments.Scientologists protested that seizing their meters and books was a form of "religious persecution," and they referred to the incident afterwards as the "book burning." They even wrote letters at the time to President Kennedy and Attorney General Robert Kennedy asking them to protect the Scientologists' religion, "even though you are of a different faith." Hubbard also expressed a desire to meet personally with President Kennedy for a conference to "come to some amicable answer on religious matters." No conference ever transpired.
> While in April of 1967 a decision was returned for the government, in February of 1969, the United States Court of Appeals, in a split decision overruled it, saying that the seizure of the meters was illegal The FDA said whether or not Scientology is a religion was "irrelevant to the case." In their summary they stated that "... _Scientology_ has made out a prima facie case that _it_ is a bona fide religion, and since no rebuttal has been offered, it must be regarded as a religion _for purposes of this case_." (Author's italics.) So if the Scientologists have suffered a financial setback, it has been somewhat offset by a spiritual victory. Hubbard is really the winner all around. Not only has he become rich but no one has yet legally disputed his claim that he has founded a religion




Perhaps no one could be bothered to waste their time in disputing Hubbard's claim that he founded a religion. LOL!


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## The Mint Man (30 May 2007)

KIWIKARLOS said:


> if you dont think christianity = business then your wrong.
> 
> Sure the whole meaning behind christianity is selflessness etc.
> 
> ...



No, your 100% right there
Did you know that they (hillsong) made $50 million last year and thats tax free of course! I brang this up with a guy at work that goes to hillsong and his answer to me was 'yeh but the pastor gets none of that, he dosnt get paid'.... and what do you know next week in the Bulletin? the pastor was in there saying that he does get paid by the church.
This is just one example of the ignorance of followers, they have alot of trouble going against the grain and will do anything to protect their church or what they beleive in. I think this is for a couple of reasons, 1. they are scared of what their peers will do or say about them 2. If they open them self up to the possibility of something dodgy going on they will feel like they are lost more then they were before. The dissapointment can often be too much to handle. After all they put so much into it, including money.

Im trying to find an article on hillsong to post up here, it was in the Bulletin a couple of months ago. From memory it was about a book that a former hillsong church goer wrote however she was having trouble getting it published as Hillsong was going to sue her if she did.


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## Agentm (30 May 2007)

scientology run businsses at a loss just to attract the youth, they use their businesses to present an image, and anyone working there is so clean and wholesome it makes you sick.. most punters here have no idea what the business is, its in major shopping centres and also cinema complexes..

next time you have that pancake, remeber where your dollar is going and what it represents.. 

btw they prey on the young and vunerable employees, who are not aware of the religious side, and use a special program of promotoin into management and the use of the profiling progrm to indoctronate very unsuspecting and vunerable and impressionable youth..

ok... its the pancake parlour.. run at a loss at all sites for you to enjoy their religious experience!! 

they run other enterprises, and are a registered company. they also infiltrate businesses.. 

some things they also are up to is running alternate shops, representing alternative eco friendly foods, and alternate natural drugs, in places like your larger markets (prahran market for example) unsuspecting people feel comfortable with green foods and medicines, but are unaware what they are looking for..

scientology.. handle with care,,  not a religion or a cult, its a business first and foremost,, under the banner of a what you may call a cult..


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## Wysiwyg (30 May 2007)

There is heaps of stuff on the net that is dead set against this mob.I found insiders (a poster here $5000 to $50000) avatar that had a Co$ tag on it.lol


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## Sprinter79 (31 May 2007)

While we're on the topic of religion=business, how about the Breatheren???

Now THEY have got their fingers in a lot of pies!!!


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## Wysiwyg (3 October 2008)

This documentary from the 60`s is back near the beginning.It sums up the founder and if one can`t see through the thin disguise then one is definately  `suggestable`.   The study of knowingness, to increase ones knowingness. 
	

		
			
		

		
	








Further to that there is the spaceship that brought all the body thetans that cling to us (of which we need to be purged) and at OT 7 and above you get to learn about XEMU (as per hand written documents) of a galactic confederacy that brought the body thetans to Earth 75 million years ago.


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## Muschu (3 October 2008)

If your library still happens to have a copy then borrow "Bare-Faced Messiah" by Russell Miller. Co$ has a reputation that warrants solid research.  They know me well.


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## Wysiwyg (22 February 2010)

> *Scientology a 'criminal organisation'*
> 
> Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:24am AEDT
> Updated Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:19am AEDT
> ...




Reference: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2745765.htm

An Aussie (Seven) reporter and film crew entered the hive of Scientology in America. The above allegations by Senator Nick Xenophon has excited the swarm and a Seven reporter has gone in. Channel Seven Today Tonight tomorrow.

Hopefully the Australian Government will deny Scientology tax exemptions which the generous "constitution" of U.S.A. now affords to the organisation. A look at what constitutes a religion in Australia needs to be reviewed as I know this organisation base their teaching from a psychological perspective.


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## Dukey (22 February 2010)

I vote cult - though through my eyes, there's not much difference between what we call a cult now and accepted religions.  The mainstream religions are simply ancient cults that have found a way to appeal to (and profit from) the masses over time and therefore become accepted into society as 'normal' belief.

It all bunkum.....   IMO. (for what it's worth )


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## Muschu (22 February 2010)

Dukey said:


> I vote cult - though through my eyes, there's not much difference between what we call a cult now and accepted religions.  The mainstream religions are simply ancient cults that have found a way to appeal to (and profit from) the masses over time and therefore become accepted into society as 'normal' belief.
> 
> It all bunkum.....   IMO. (for what it's worth )




There are huge differences between destructive cults and the non-extreme ends of mainstream religions.   This is an enormous topic which has been a big part of my life for over 20 years.

I can't answer your queries in an email and can only suggest the value of researching the topic if you are seriously interested.

A search for books by the late Professor Margaret Thaler Singer, Professor Robert Jay Lifton or Steve Hassan would be a start.

It depends, with all respect,on the level of your interest.


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## GumbyLearner (22 February 2010)

Unequivocally a cult IMO.

Read the book *Combatting Cult Mind Control* by Steve Hassan

Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control

The only difference between the Church/State of the pre-16th century Church selling indulgences and/or the confessional. Scientology uses *"auditors"*! And anti-alien ones at that! ROTFLMAO

Same **** different bucket pretty much.

DYOR


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## Wysiwyg (22 February 2010)

A friend sent me this excerpt. It defines the state of mind therapy aims to achieve. An E-meter is a simple device which measures electrical resistance and according to L.Ron the resistance is a representation of latent mental issues. Questions are asked and the patient will respond while the auditor notes the E-meter needle action.  



> HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
> Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
> HCO BULLETIN OF 22 SEPTEMBER 1966
> Clearing Course
> ...


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## GumbyLearner (22 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> A friend sent me this excerpt. It defines the state of mind therapy aims to achieve. An E-meter is a simple device which measures electrical resistance and according to L.Ron the resistance is a representation of latent mental issues. Questions are asked and the patient will respond while the auditor notes the E-meter needle action.




Does "THETAN" rhyme with "SATAN"? LOL ROTFLMAO


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## Wysiwyg (22 February 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> Does "THETAN" rhyme with "SATAN"? LOL ROTFLMAO




Don't think Hubbard had a lisp but (thay-ten) would do it.


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## GumbyLearner (22 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Don't think Hubbard had a lisp but (thay-ten) would do it.




I'm sure he would have had a ball with Ita Buttrose. LOL


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## Wysiwyg (23 February 2010)

On Today Tonight channel 7 tomorrow Tuesday watch the PRO Tommy use his mental strength to overwhelm the reporter. 



> PR SERIES 24
> 
> HANDLING HOSTILE CONTACTS/DEAD AGENTING
> 
> ...


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## Wysiwyg (23 February 2010)

The reporter is a bit of a nong-nong so he gets chewed up pretty easily. He either didn't prepare or didn't know what to expect. 



> Reporters are a kiss of death unless one really is an expert PR man himself. Reporters have to be handled and well. If truly friendly, they have to be wooed. If not they have to be handled. The routine is (1) Whisper of a bad story (2) Get a lawyer (3) Threaten suit (4) Totally discredit using the technique of the Dead Agent caper which MUST be understood in full. It consists of photostats of good stories and authentic documents that state the truth and thus wreck any lies and the liar. "Dead agent" means when they find out the guy lied (proven by documents) he's dead. The kit of the PRO MUST contain a full set of such documents, adequate to cancel out any lies told.
> And it must be fast. It must come to an immediate confrontation. (LRH)


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> Unequivocally a cult IMO.
> 
> Read the book *Combatting Cult Mind Control* by Steve Hassan
> 
> ...




Steve is not an academic but is an experienced and informed counsellor in this area.

There are inaccuracies in the other aspects of "difference" that you cite. Here I would suggest reading Singer, Lifton or other researchers.

One single difference today between the Co$ and the practices of mainstream churches [I am not a member of any]  is the dollar cost.  I agree that, historically, many "conventional" churches have much to answer for. But many have moved on and my principal interest in in their current behaviour.

Try researching today's dollar cost of becoming a Scientologist at Operating Thetan Level 8 for example.  Compare this, for example, to the outlay in becoming an Anglican minister or a Lutheran pastor.

Also research the "alien" leanings of the CoS, the background of their introductory "personality" questionnaire and their approach to dissenters.

As is often said with stocks, DYOR, and consider the value of Research beyond trading scenarios...


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## GumbyLearner (23 February 2010)

Muschu said:


> Steve is not an academic but is an experienced and informed counsellor in this area.
> 
> There are inaccuracies in the other aspects of "difference" that you cite. Here I would suggest reading Singer, Lifton or other researchers.
> 
> ...




Hierarchy within religious institutions are common. Compulsion, death-threats and you will burn in Hades if you decide to leave are not.


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## Wysiwyg (23 February 2010)

So Rick do you know what level this Space Opera is introduced. I thought it was O.T. 7 ?


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> Hierarchy within religious institutions are common. Compulsion, death-threats and you will burn in Hades if you decide to leave are not.




Certainly threats of damnation, life and eternal ruination, family and friend alientation are absolute commonalities in today's world of leaving a high demand organisation with an agenda that is not fully proclaimed [major secrecies]  and which operates from a base of coercive persuasion while using a foundation of human vulnerability [as opposed to gullibility].

I don't know your background GL and am certainly not asking -- but I have probably expressed my point of view as best I can.  I have been wrong before.

As always - happy to discuss and disagree in the interests of informed decision making.

Best wishes

R


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> So Rick do you know what level this Space Opera is introduced. I thought it was O.T. 7 ?




Probably OT 3 -- easy to research if you wish to.


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## GumbyLearner (23 February 2010)

You betcha it sounds silly







The first link is blocked. Just type into google.


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## Boognish (23 February 2010)

All religions are cults.


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## awg (23 February 2010)

A question to those with knowledge of Scientology:

Why are they so opposed to Psychiatry?

When so much of their "idealogy" for want of a better word,( and only from my very limited knowledge), seems to draw upon, or have similarities to the the discipline of Psychology.

Was their founder L Ron Hubbard ever exposed to pyschiatric diagnosis/treatment to anyones knowledge? ( could explain the dislike)


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

Boognish said:


> All religions are cults.




Define a cult.


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## Bolle (23 February 2010)

i think, of course, there are similarities between cults and religions... both are essentially a collection of people that believe something on faith, but cannot prove it... however i think that it moves into 'cult' status when the organisation starts dictating that its members cannot have any outside involvement, and must disown their families and get all secretive about what they are doing in their spare time and so on.  When it starts to get all shady, is about where i draw the distinction.  There are probably factions of most major religions that also fit into this description.

i've had a little bit to do with the Church of the E Machine in business dealings, nothing really direct, I suppose, but they have appeared to me to generally be some fairly nice people, capable of some really awful behaviour - mostly very rational, considered actions, but there is something weird underneath - i was once given a document to read by one of them, but half of it was blacked out, because if an uninitiated non-member (me) were to read it in full, they would die of pneumonia or chicken pox or something.  It's bizarre to me that someone could believe that, in this country, in this century.  Words have power, sure, but not like that.  Mind you, i'm surprised that otherwise rational people believe the stuff about the thetans and xenu and all that as well.  

Putting the "fiction" firmly back in "science fiction", n'est-ce pas?

I'm surprised that they are a recognised religion here, they don't really fit the criteria, and to me at least, they do seem like more of a cult.  Except that they are the 'mostly harmless' kind - notwithstanding LRH's collection of teenage girls and so on.   Many countries don't acknowledge them as a religion.  Again, i'm surprised that ours does.  Freedom of speech maybe?  (Yet we are trying to censor our internet... so it probably isn't that.)

They've done me no personal harm, but i'm still a bit creeped out by them, nonetheless.  I think a religion that has to 'recruit' people and 'reprogram' them and so on, should be treated with utmost caution.


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## Wysiwyg (23 February 2010)

awg said:


> A question to those with knowledge of Scientology:
> 
> Why are they so opposed to Psychiatry?
> 
> ...




From my observation, insanity and it's fringes are complex issues that Hubbard's cheap tricks does not address. Hubbard's tech. may help sane, mildly depressed or 'lost' people to feel better and part of a wonderful group experience. 

This scientologist comments on "the industry of death". The first sentence suggests that Hubbards technology is more effective than the psychiatric approach. *ECT is ElectroConvulsive Therapy.

From a scientologist:



> Hubbard offerred the Psychiatric profession a non-electrical way to induce an ECT ceasure. They refused. They didn't even know (and still don't) how ECT works. It was invented by two Italian psychiatrists who were experimenting with PIGS....PIGS?????.
> Then there is the wonderful Trans-Orbital Leucotomy or the Pre-Frontal Libotomy. Its the procedure of cutting the front lobes fibres in the forehead with the help of an ordinary ice pick. This was justified by saying the patient was no longer "insane". He was, however, invariably in a vegetative state. This comprised the totality of the "cure".
> Lastly, EVERY doctor in charge of Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Madjanek and Chelmno was a psychiatrist trained in the psychiatric "science" of Eugenics developed by the auspices of Nazi Prof. Ernst Rudin of Leipzeig University.
> This is only the start. I question the entire basis of its "science" and it the ways in which it becomes more politically correct in hiding its dirty linen.
> ...



Rebut from a non-scientologist ....



> FYI - Electo convolusive therapy isn't used anymore and Hubbard had no qualifications, medical, paediological or otherwise to offer anyone a psychological technique. He was rejected by the APA - American Psychological Society - in the 50's because his works have no scientific validity. They are a product of an egotistical mind, someone who seemed to me to have messianic delusions.


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## Boognish (23 February 2010)

Muschu said:


> Define a cult.




cult   /kʌlt/  Show Spelled[kuhlt]  –noun

1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 

3.the object of such devotion.

4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.


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## awg (23 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> From my observation, insanity and it's fringes are complex issues that Hubbard's cheap tricks does not address. Hubbard's tech. may help sane, mildly depressed or 'lost' people to feel better and part of a wonderful group experience. .




A perusal of the bare facts of Hubbards Wiki bio is very suggestive to me of someone who experienced bipolar disorder, or alternatively, a pervasive personality condition. 

It is clear he had much interest in, and contact with mental health professionals.

It would be possible to conclude from the information in that bio, that he may have experienced "adverse" diagnosis, at some points in his life, but rejected that, instead constructing a more palatable reality for himself (with great success).

Interesting parallels with many other "gurus"

All just conjecture on my part of course

I was previously led to believe the Hare Krishnas were a harmful cult, but when I checked out some info on them, I came to the conculsion they were not harmful.

As to any beneficial effects of the therapies Scientology offer, that could be accounted largely to the placebo effect of the individual taking action to address issues in a meaningful way.

I consider Scientology to be very much a business, and a pretty darned succesful one.


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## Mr J (23 February 2010)

Any estimates on the membership rate in Australia? I'd be interested to know the odds of a member being here.

Found some figures, if ASF were to reflect the overall demographics of Aus, there would be 4 Co$ members at this site.


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## Wysiwyg (23 February 2010)

awg said:


> As to any beneficial effects of the therapies Scientology offer, that could be accounted largely to the placebo effect of the individual taking action to address issues in a meaningful way.




There is a definite high to euphoric feeling when a patient has a "lift". That being the underlying blocks, disturbance, unease etc. have been accessed and the latent energy the issue/s  possessed is alleviated. Like after a cry or a good tension release, one feels lighter of mind. 

This is psycho-analysis with an auditor (therapist) and patient relationship. The trick is to keep, as one former scientologist said, people "jumping through the hoops". That being the follow up courses from pre-clear up to Operating Thetan levels.  

 In the Dead Agenting manual it reveals the extreme lengths the organisation will go to cover up any apparent negativity directed toward them. The directions are effective and ensure the group continues to grow. 

There is a culture in the scientology organisation that doesn't allow people to leave the flock easily. I think the basics can be practiced and effected by anyone and one does not need to be connected in any way to Hubbardology.


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

Boognish said:


> cult   /kʌlt/  Show Spelled[kuhlt]  –noun
> 
> 1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
> 
> ...




Not bad -- bit narrow but it goes beyond religion. Organisations such as the International Cultic Studies Association will often refer to political, commercial and religious cults. 

Could being a member of the Geelong Football Club, AC/DC, the Marines etc ever be considered cultic? Perhaps -- but few [including me] would consider this harmful.  Can in fact be healthy.

An often used expression is "destructive cults" where manipulation, control [of behaviour and information] and coercion reach extreme levels.... Compare Heaven's Gate or David Koresh to the Anglican Church for example. 

As for the question about the CoS and psychiatry a bit of Googling will find a huge amount of information.


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## awg (23 February 2010)

Muschu said:


> As for the question about the CoS and psychiatry a bit of Googling will find a huge amount of information.




you can just about google anything these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry

I imagine the wiki-edits of stuff about Scientology is a story all in itself!

http://www.wisegeek.com/who-is-l-ron-hubbard.htm

"According to a June 1990 Los Angeles Times article, The Mind Behind The Religion, Hubbard asked the Veterans Administration for psychiatric help as early as 1947 to treat fits of deep suicidal depression. Along with grandiose periods, this drastic swing from one extreme to the other again potentially points to bipolar disorder, though if Hubbard was ever officially diagnosed as manic-depressive, it was never made public. The religion Hubbard would jump-start just a few years later, Scientology, ironically rejects the idea of psychiatric care."

Starting your own religion is textbook manic:

btw, i grew up in what I consider to be a cult, even though it is an accepted religion, Church of Christian Science. I point blank refused to accept the doctrine, even as a child

A benign cult except for one thing..devout members only accept limited medical treatment, prefering to believe God will heal them.

Which was probably fair enough in the 1880s, not so smart these days.

I am interested in why people go in for these cults, religions etc


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## Boognish (23 February 2010)

The regard the in-group has for the out-group is what makes a cult dangerous or not.  Broncos supporters aren't going to hunt down and kill Bulldogs supporters, although there are no guarantees going the other way.

The regard the cult leaders have for their flock makes a cult dangerous or not.  The Pope tells his African congregation that condoms are sinful while AIDS runs rampant thru that continent.

Anglicans are cultists as much as any other religious group, by definition.


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## Muschu (23 February 2010)

Boognish said:


> .....Anglicans are cultists as much as any other religious group, by definition.




"As much as any other"?  Well if that's your view then so be it.  This would have to mean even the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate....   The list is very long.

Let's agree to disagree. My interest is that the decisions we make are informed ones.  

As to why people join [or are recruited to] destructive cults then a read of Steve Hassan's "Combatting Cult Mind Control" is an easy read and a good start.


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## Boognish (23 February 2010)

To the extent that they are an in-group that pays reverence to a set of sacred beliefs and what-not, they are.  I don't intent to load the word cult with any sinister meaning in this context.  I merely want to point out that there are similarities in behaviour and group-think at this very basic level between mainstream cults and any fringe cults you could mention.  

As an athiest it would be dishonest not to point out that it seems that Dawkins and Hitchens et al are developing the same kind of cultish following around them.


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## Mofra (24 February 2010)

awg said:


> I consider Scientology to be very much a business, and a pretty darned succesful one.



Summed up perfectly. Scientology is an excellent business model that is damn near as perfect as a Chicago School visionary could engineer.


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## Happy (24 February 2010)

Mofra said:


> *Summed up perfectly*. Scientology is an excellent business model that is damn near as perfect as a Chicago School visionary could engineer.




As long as they are considered to be religion, our constitution protects them and we can do nothing about it. 

Unhappy individuals are not enough to do anything.

Maybe Senator is onto something, maybe not.


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## Wysiwyg (24 February 2010)

Mofra said:


> Summed up perfectly. Scientology is an excellent business model that is damn near as perfect as a Chicago School visionary could engineer.



I notice the lower case employees are quite happy on no wages. That is extraordinary.


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## awg (25 February 2010)

I think most religions are businesses.

If you check the definitions of religion, it is interesting.

The model is excellent..cash donations , property development, and merchandising if they are clever enough, selling of spiritual or educational services, also tithing of members income in many "cults" and all tax exempt!

many cults such as the Brethren and most others I have knowledge of also attempt to build businesses within their "Community"

I have often idly wondered what is required to commence ones very own religion or cult, as a tax free entity of course. Gurus get all the good stuff

Remember the Orange people... I also once worked for a businessman who was a member of a "new-age" Christian religion/cult (they talked in tongues)

To me it seemed like a business club...anyway the epicentre of the Newcastle eathquake was literally their church. Just like Sodom and Gommorah:

Also there is that Hillsong mob..try and tell me that is not a business.

Anyway they all have lightyears to go till they exceed the Catholic chuch in business model


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## explod (25 February 2010)

Maybe someone has covered this previously, could not bring myself to read this thread.   

Till I think about 1982/3 there used to be legislation in Victoria outlawing the Church of Scientology.   I had a lot to do with the matter in my employ at that time and without going into specifics they were in short, leeches who prayed on the lonely and vulnerable, particularly widows left lots of money and they not only cleaned them out but destroyed them psychologically also.   Govmints ought to have the b..ls to expose them and wipe the movement from the face of the earth.  Trouble is, they are now a very wealthy lobby group with an in type/cool profile.



*IMVVHO* of course and as usual


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## Mofra (25 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> I notice the lower case employees are quite happy on no wages. That is extraordinary.



Bang! That business model _is_ perfect!


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## ghoool (25 December 2020)

Did you know that they (hillsong) made $50 million last year and thats tax free of course! I brang this up with a guy at work that goes to hillsong and his answer to me was 'yeh but the pastor gets none of that, he dosnt get paid'.... and what do you know next week in the Bulletin? the pastor was in there saying that he does get paid by the church.


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## ghoool (26 December 2020)

I met a guy on a dating site https://mylistcrawler.com/, and he was fond of scientology. All that was very interesting, and he told a lot of interesting things. But at the same time, there were a lot of differences between us in this matter, so we departed. I must tell you that religious discrepancies play very important role in a couple. So you should take into account when dating.


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