# Hometrader vs. SITM etc.



## Anthony.m

Can someone please spare me their valuable knowledge. Is Hometrader or Safety in the Market worth it. Are they any good. If so which is the best type of product like this????? etc.  thankyou


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## captain black

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*



			
				Anthony.m said:
			
		

> Is Hometrader or Safety in the Market worth it.




No.



			
				Anthony.m said:
			
		

> Are they any good.




No.


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## yogi-in-oz

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*



Hi Anthony,

If you do your own research you will find most of the
information that sitm has to offer for free, making 
their starter package a slick sales promotion to prepare
you for the next sales pitch, selling you more "trading 
secrets", at an even bigger price.

Contents of their starter package includes, Gann's mechanical 
trading techniques, like swing trading and 50% retracements
..... all of which is available free, on the web.

-----

Hometrader and Gryphon..... are other very expensive ways
to learn the pitfalls of trading ..... ???

Sure, we all must learn one way or another, but the money
spent on such programmes could be alternatively used in
the markets for some real-time self-education, with some
FREEbie guidance from many good websites, specialising
in educating traders, online.

Many would-be traders spend many thousands of dollars on
packaged trading systems, in the hope of finding the holy
grail of trading ..... once on this carousel, they go from
system-to-system and unconsciously, they then have 
someone to blame, when they ultimately fail at this game.

Take responsibility for your own trading future, do the study
and necessary planning, as you would for any small business,
then activate your plan and continually review and improve
on your trading plan, until its execution becomes second 
nature to you ..... 

-----

..... and also be aware, that despite the desires of some
to make some "easy money" from the markets, it is a fact
that many people should NEVER entertain the thought of 
being a sharetrader !~!

Often it is the OTHER passions in our lives, where we make
our most productive contributions (and profits), not to 
mention job satisfaction.

Let's face it ..... sharetrading is boring and it is hardly
glamourous, staring at a screen all day ..... but for some,
it does pay the bills !~! 

happy days

   yogi


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## BSD

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*

Many people get paid millions of dollars per year to make money for corporates in the markets. 

Do you think some banana with a chart is going to:

1. Teach you a secret that will reduce his profits?
2. Make you a millionaire?
3. Teach people something for few thousand that he could sell to a corporate/fund manager/insurance company that makes all this money in the market?

Spend the money on doing a finance degree - unfortunately the education will teach you that the free lunch doesnt exist. 

You should ask these 'teachers' why they make more money selling crap graph software than punting the market.

That said - I love the ad with the ex-plumber sitting next to his pool making 5 bar a year on his laptop.


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## tech/a

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*



> You should ask these 'teachers' why they make more money selling crap graph software than punting the market.




Because they can.
Pure economic sense.


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## Bobby

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*



			
				tech/a said:
			
		

> Because they can.
> Pure economic sense.





Sad but true Tech,

Lies & hypocrisy are the natural idiom for the gullible.

Bob.


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## Tex

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*

Anthony,

Yes, I agree that some of the courses around are expensive and they will try and get more money out of you using various marketing techniques.

Having done some researching on courses available in Australia, I came across 2 quality courses which are great for beginners and also experienced traders, and they won't cost you an arm and a leg.

They are written by Neil Costa(unfortunately passed away)  http://www.marketmasters.com.au and Nick Radge http://www.reefcap.com

These guys are well known and highly respected nationally and internationally and you can be confident of getting an excellent course which is value for money. Much easier than scouring the net for free info, especially for beginners.

The best thing about these courses is the price. They cost only $795 and $550. You can read and surf the net as much as you want, but if you want to put together an effective trading plan, one of these courses is a great start!

If anyone else know of a good value for money course, or has a comment on the 2 above, fell free to tell.


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## stevo

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*

It would be nice to hear from someone that has done either of the courses that can give a rundown of the courses and any issues that they might have.

Also some links that might be of interest - Google is very useful although I couldn't find much. I even searched on "The Hubb Organisation Pty Ltd".

www.travismorien.com/FAQ/ripoffs/scsystems.htm

fido.asic.gov.au/fido/fido.nsf/byhe...trading+courses:+painful+lessons?openDocument

www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/09/13/stories/2005091302871500.htm (Spreading themselves around)

I know nothing about either of these businesses so I really cannot comment on the wisdom of putting money into their products.


stevo


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## rookie

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*

I just got an invitation letter from Home Trader to go to one of their FREE training seminars what teaches me how to trade.
I subscribed first to see what's going to happen there but I also made some research on the internet.

Capital Intelligence is the name of the company behind Home Trader and they also have some other trader products.
They're also listed on ASX and it's worth to take a look on their price history chart.
http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/...panyName=&principalActivity=&industryGroup=NO

This has finally convinced me that a company which sells stock trader products and trainings for the mass and their stock price is free falling that can't have a serious, working product or knowledge about the topic... 
:behead:

Rookie


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## rookie

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

OK, I just had the FREE HomeTrader seminar where the guy explained us what we can get for a bit more then $10K.
It's a learning package about share trading.
Starting with lessons like "What's the Internet" or "How to use the computer" and core traning modules like "Buying/Selling, Basic risk management, etc." they start to teach more advanced techniques, like entry/exit startegies, writing trading plan, etc.

For an extra $496 annual fee you can extend your membership by one year and you can also subscribe to the Advanced Trader Membership for another $9500. I don't know why you should subscribe to it but I'm pretty sure that this membership has all the nitty-gritty that you need to receive all of the information that this company can provide.

So, I think if you have $20K to spend on trainings than go for it, but I rather buy some more books for couple of hundred bucks and ask my questions on this forum.
That saves me about $20K that I can then spent on the stock market.


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## TraderPro

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Both are legit businesses. I haven't used their services, but I have attended their free seminars.

I did a blog post a while back of how a meeting with a HomeTrader salesperson affected my trading. He really undermined my trading style. But no matter it was a good experience in the end.

If you are time poor, these programs may be of use to you. But the risk there is that your performance once you finish these programs all depends on your passion and determination. And we all know that for a lot of the people that fail in these types of educational services - once they are out of the hype zone they lose their drive to follow through.

If you take the route to do it yourself (the way I do it, and it seems a lot of people on this board do it) - that path is a much harder one, one of experimentation, failure, successes, self-education... etc... but I think this route really proves that you are passionate and hence more likely to succeed.


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## Bobby

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*



			
				TraderPro said:
			
		

> I did a blog post a while back of how a meeting with a HomeTrader salesperson affected my trading. He really undermined my trading style. But no matter it was a good experience in the end.
> 
> If you are time poor, these programs may be of use to you. But the risk there is that your performance once you finish these programs all depends on your passion and determination. And we all know that for a lot of the people that fail in these types of educational services - once they are out of the hype zone they lose their drive to follow through.
> 
> If you take the route to do it yourself (the way I do it, and it seems a lot of people on this board do it) - that path is a much harder one, one of experimentation, failure, successes, self-education... etc... but I think this route really proves that you are passionate and hence more likely to succeed.




TraderPro,

I liked your post, especially your term of   (the hype zone ) !
Good stuff.

Bob.


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## phoenixrising

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Traderpro, well said.

I had some goose try to sign me up for a network marketing thing some yrs ago. The pressure tactics were that we need more and more money to survive (true)  I replied I'm learning to trade shares, to which he bagged the market, could fall badly at any minute (this was early 04)  
I felt outrage at this *&&%)%#@  lack of any intrest in my objectives and well have we had a bull run or what!!! 

Needless to say I didn't join


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## TraderPro

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Thanks to Bobby and phoenixrising for your support.

There is a positive side to these companies. They produce employment as well as seed the markets with additional funds... increasing liquidity in the markets as well as increasing the number of people trading...

Both beneficial for traders everywhere:
1) increased liquidity is always a good thing
2) increased number of people trading would bring on competition between the brokers... we are already seeing it with CFD services coming in left right and centre!


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## rookie

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Just arrived back from another FREE trading seminar. This time it was CMC Markets that introduced the concept of CFD trading to the audience.
To my surprise at the end of the seminar the same guys who tried to sell me some HomeTrader trainings for a couple of $10K got to the stage and said that they have a cheap 1 day course in CFD trading.

At the end of the seminar the presenter talked about one of his friends who bought all of the books available about trading a couple of years ago to learn how to make profit on the sharemarket.
The presenter decided to go on a different way and subscribed to the HomeTrader trainings.
Now, he's already an active trader with $100K to invest while his friend is still hasn't achieved the confidence from the books to make his first trade...

I don't like these car dealer style of tricks that based on the expectancy of the would-be traders.
A serious business should give facts to the potential customers not the promise of some sort of strongly protected secrets of their great backtested trading strategy that you can only get if you subscribed to their trainings.
It's so pathetic...


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## swingstar

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*



			
				rookie said:
			
		

> Just arrived back from another FREE trading seminar. This time it was CMC Markets that introduced the concept of CFD trading to the audience.
> To my surprise at the end of the seminar the same guys who tried to sell me some HomeTrader trainings for a couple of $10K got to the stage and said that they have a cheap 1 day course in CFD trading.
> 
> At the end of the seminar the presenter talked about one of his friends who bought all of the books available about trading a couple of years ago to learn how to make profit on the sharemarket.
> The presenter decided to go on a different way and subscribed to the HomeTrader trainings.
> Now, he's already an active trader with $100K to invest while his friend is still hasn't achieved the confidence from the books to make his first trade...
> 
> I don't like these car dealer style of tricks that based on the expectancy of the would-be traders.
> A serious business should give facts to the potential customers not the promise of some sort of strongly protected secrets of their great backtested trading strategy that you can only get if you subscribed to their trainings.
> It's so pathetic...




Well said. 

I have little respect for businesses who feel it is necessary to deceive people and hide information for sales - probably 99% of seminars and home studies.


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## pjethwani

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Hi Anthony,

I think my reply might be coming a bit too late, but I joined this forum only yesterday.

I am yet to attend the Home Trader free introductory seminar, however, I will agree with the general vibe of all the responses here. 

You can do much better by spending that extra effort to educate yourself,  and Internet just makes this a whole lot easier.

I think InformedTrades.com is an excellent (& absolutely free resource to start with). **I have no affiliation with Informed Trades, what so ever**. Just came across their YouTube channel and saw some good introductory videos.

Also, read some books.  A good one would be 

Technical Analysis: The Complete Resource for Financial Market Technicians - Charles D. Kirkpatrick

If you are still interested in doing a course I'd recommend looking at Seek Learning for their Diploma in Share Trading course. At least that one is Accredited. Though its nearly 6000$.

Hope this helps,

- Paras Jethwani


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## kolonel

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc;*



Tex said:


> They are written by Neil Costa(unfortunately passed away)  http://www.marketmasters.com.au and Nick Radge http://www.reefcap.com




Cant get onto reefcap.  Server down ??

Regards
kolonel


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## Vito

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Hi,
   I am a bit late with my response. I think I have made every mistake in book when it comes to trading shares. I have finally started to become profitable. Below are the things that have helped me become more successfull and stop the slide. .

1. Educate your self I have done the Reef Cap course and I found it very help full and with the new power set ups which are posted on Reef Cap are great. They have helped me identify set ups. The other coarse that I have done was one run by Finsia which again was very good on getting you to understand the basics.

2. Read as much as you can some will be good and some not so good.

3. Decide what sort of trader you would like to be, short term or long term and what instruments you are going to use.

4. I know every one says this but concentrate on managing your loses the winners will come. Money management is the key.

5. Understand your methodology for trading shares. If you dont understand a particular methodology forget it  and move on to one that you do.

6. There are a lot of people that want to make money out of you. Deal with people that are transparent and honest.  This at times can be easier said than done. Believe what you see not what they say.

Hope this helps
Vito


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## inenigma

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Hi,

I have not attended any of the free seminars for HomeTrader, but, as a dear friend has recently passed away, his widow has allowed me to borrow his course material (my mate did the course earlier in 2008).  I don't know, but, I would suppose the bulk of the course fee would be involved in the IP of the three manuals....  Free reference material !!!!!


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## OzTrader2010

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Hi Everyone
I have only just joined this site 
I have done both the Diploma in Share Market trading  mentioned and the Safety in the Market course.  I'm still learning about all sorts of things to do with trading and yes it can be said hat both of these were expensive options for learnig from a pretty much zero base however i have found they have given me the skills I needed to continue with trading so whilst they are expensive and in one case time consuming, they both provide good groundings in trading.
Now I have these skills and some consistent tools to use I amable to more effectively knuckle down and get on with the work I know I need to do and that which cannot be avoided.
I have been trading for some time now with mixed results an outcome of my mixe approach o trading.
These days I am in the process of reviewing my trading plan and backtesting, backtesting simple but different strategies.
I am also better prepared to monitor my results, partly through learnings on course and mostly through experience.
Experience such as this cannot be bought it seems to need to be earned.
I am persistent though and NEVER give up so I'm convinced in the longer term I will be successful.
As for Black Box trading systems I can now see there value whereas I once could not.
Having returned to fulltime work and working through issues with my trading I can see the value in automating and sytemising trading.
Given I have not done the Black Box courses, I am to some extent attempting to create my own systems..time consuming DEFINTIELY..but the learnings are HUGE.. At the end of the day I beleive the most successful traders are ones that are able to consistently apply a bunch of rules that suit their trading style.. one of the ecent learnings for me is definitely around my trdang style and how that prevents or helps me make trading profitable or unprofitable.
For what it is worth these are a few of my thoughts


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## TradeSim

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*



rookie said:


> OK, I just had the FREE HomeTrader seminar where the guy explained us what we can get for a bit more then $10K.
> It's a learning package about share trading.
> Starting with lessons like "What's the Internet" or "How to use the computer" and core traning modules like "Buying/Selling, Basic risk management, etc." they start to teach more advanced techniques, like entry/exit startegies, writing trading plan, etc.
> 
> For an extra $496 annual fee you can extend your membership by one year and you can also subscribe to the Advanced Trader Membership for another $9500. I don't know why you should subscribe to it but I'm pretty sure that this membership has all the nitty-gritty that you need to receive all of the information that this company can provide.
> 
> So, I think if you have $20K to spend on trainings than go for it, but I rather buy some more books for couple of hundred bucks and ask my questions on this forum.
> That saves me about $20K that I can then spent on the stock market.




Steer clear of Home Trader at any cost !! IMHO the management is both deceitful and dishonest and took me for one hell of a ride. This is my unfortunate account of dealing with these people 

http://www.compuvision.com.au/HomeTrader.htm

I have feedback from dissatisfied Home Trader members complaining that they still don't know how to build a trading system with MetaStock and back test it using TradeSim !! They feel obligated to keep paying out $500 per year membership fee just so they can be spoon fed more canned trading systems. 

It's ironical that Home Trader still want 5-6K minimum for their course but have unrealistic expectations when it comes to paying for other peoples intellectual property 

Be warned !! Not happy Jan


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## aarbee

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*

Hi Dave,

On the outset, let me state that I have used TradeSim for my initial efforts at System Backtesting and was very happy with it. I also admire what you produced when really there was nothing comparable around available to retail system developers. 

Having said that, I was surprised to read your puerile diatribe against HomeTrader which is verging on the hysterical and reeks of immaturity. I can see that you are passionate about your product and that is good, but that is no justification to rant in that way.  I am just a very satisfied HomeTrader member and have seen them use Metastock and TradeSim combo  and then transition to Amibroker for backtesting. As an outsider looking in and reading about your posts on the different forums I can only surmise that HomeTrader's change over to the Amibroker platform for their backtesting has really got your goat. 

I'll just address a couple of points in your article on your site. 
AA  In every backtest report I got from HomeTrader that used TradeSim, due credit was given to TradeSim. I have also checked with a few other members who have said the same to me. 

BB   Your example of TradeSim use by HomeTrader and comparing it with use of Dell Computers - C'mon, you can' be serious!!. As you mention, HomeTrader did produce a DVD which members could buy. This DVD was just about the best resource around teaching the use of TradeSim for backtesting. As inferred by you, I don't think they were using it as a selling point to sell a $6,000 course. That would be ridiculous. I personally know of a lot of HomeTrader members who bought TradeSim because of system backtesting reports produced for them by HomeTrader and the availability of the forementioned DVD. 

CC  As for the "numerous" licences they got from you, I am at loss as to how would they have got those without you giving them away for a percieved advantage. I reckon your relationship with them turned sour when HomeTrader switched to a backtesting platform (Amibroker) that could actually backtest the ideas they were promulgating to their members for which the Metastock/Tradesim combo was inadequate. I have attended most of the HomeTrader meeting since 2005 and nowhere did I ever hear them "denigrating" TradeSim or calling it the "worst backtesting software of all times". It's just that they came up with a way to modify their databases to incorporate the information for survivouship bias testing using the Open Interest field which Tradesim could not handle and Amibroker could. Mind you that was not the only issue. 

DD  As for dissatisfied HT customers, once the market turns as it has in recent times, you wouldn't need to make much of an effort to find a few from a membership as large as HomeTrader's. 

I understand that the new version of TradeSim addresses the inadequacies of the earlier version. Good onya for doing so. Kudos to you for your drive towards improving Tradesim. Mechanical traders can only benefit from such healthy competition leading to improvements. 

Sorry for going off topic from the thread, but I thought there needed to be a bit of a balance in the discussion.

Cheers


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## weird

lol, hometrader ... who ? Not advertising in Sydney yet I guess, or at least the multiple programs I watch.

Anyhow heard enough about this crowd and saw some yahoo forum groups in different trading languages which attempted to program some code from HT ... what I saw from the group is that you need to use the word 'gates' for anything.


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## weird

Btw, I would be cautious if any one says use sequential x (example 7) highs or closes or any number meaning it is probable that the next will be different, that is an old gambling fallacy ..  although backtesting 'may' prove differently.


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## TradeSim

*Re: Hometrader vs SITM etc*



aarbee said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> On the outset, let me state that I have used TradeSim for my initial efforts at System Backtesting and was very happy with it. I also admire what you produced when really there was nothing comparable around available to retail system developers.
> 
> Having said that, I was surprised to read your puerile diatribe against HomeTrader which is verging on the hysterical and reeks of immaturity. I can see that you are passionate about your product and that is good, but that is no justification to rant in that way.  I am just a very satisfied HomeTrader member and have seen them use Metastock and TradeSim combo  and then transition to Amibroker for backtesting. As an outsider looking in and reading about your posts on the different forums I can only surmise that HomeTrader's change over to the Amibroker platform for their backtesting has really got your goat.
> 
> I'll just address a couple of points in your article on your site.
> AA  In every backtest report I got from HomeTrader that used TradeSim, due credit was given to TradeSim. I have also checked with a few other members who have said the same to me.
> 
> BB   Your example of TradeSim use by HomeTrader and comparing it with use of Dell Computers - C'mon, you can' be serious!!. As you mention, HomeTrader did produce a DVD which members could buy. This DVD was just about the best resource around teaching the use of TradeSim for backtesting. As inferred by you, I don't think they were using it as a selling point to sell a $6,000 course. That would be ridiculous. I personally know of a lot of HomeTrader members who bought TradeSim because of system backtesting reports produced for them by HomeTrader and the availability of the forementioned DVD.
> 
> CC  As for the "numerous" licences they got from you, I am at loss as to how would they have got those without you giving them away for a percieved advantage. I reckon your relationship with them turned sour when HomeTrader switched to a backtesting platform (Amibroker) that could actually backtest the ideas they were promulgating to their members for which the Metastock/Tradesim combo was inadequate. I have attended most of the HomeTrader meeting since 2005 and nowhere did I ever hear them "denigrating" TradeSim or calling it the "worst backtesting software of all times". It's just that they came up with a way to modify their databases to incorporate the information for survivouship bias testing using the Open Interest field which Tradesim could not handle and Amibroker could. Mind you that was not the only issue.
> 
> DD  As for dissatisfied HT customers, once the market turns as it has in recent times, you wouldn't need to make much of an effort to find a few from a membership as large as HomeTrader's.
> 
> I understand that the new version of TradeSim addresses the inadequacies of the earlier version. Good onya for doing so. Kudos to you for your drive towards improving Tradesim. Mechanical traders can only benefit from such healthy competition leading to improvements.
> 
> Sorry for going off topic from the thread, but I thought there needed to be a bit of a balance in the discussion.
> 
> Cheers




You are entitled to your opinion but bear in mind that I stand by what I have said in that link I posted based on the feedback given to me by several HomeTrader members. In essence all I did was ask HomeTrader to pay me for the licenses that I issued to them and instead they turned against me. The management never even phoned me up and offered to negotiate on a corporate license. I don’t think I was being unreasonable do you in view of the fact that HomeTrader wasn’t actually selling my product !

I don't really care what software HomeTrader uses to be quite honest. It would have been even better if they had of paid me for my software in the first place and not look for a free ride at the expense of all of the other paying customers that have actually contributed and shaped the product to what it is today. And what really got up my goat to use your vernacular was the continual denigration (on their forum) of my software by their management and staff after many years of FREE use and all because I asked them to PAY me for it in the end. I don't think that I was being unreasonable do you ? Have I really done anything wrong to request that I actually be paid for my work and efforts ? Do the staff or the CEO’s of HomeTrader with their $150,000 per year salaries expect to be paid nothing for their work ? I mean I have got bills to pay as well you know and I am usually working to 3am in the morning on most nights 

I also believe at the time, that whilst HomeTrader were pleading their case with me as to why I should allow them to continue to have free use of my software, they were cobbling together their own backtesting platform in the background which in retrospect also got up my goat !  Wouldn't it get up your goat if someone was using your intellectual property for FREE for many years and then go behind your back and back door you, and then to add insult to injury bag the crap out of it later on, just because they incorporated an additional feature that your software didn't have !! ( Read their forum if you don’t know what I mean !!) Is this what you mean by healthy competition ?  And I didn't know I was competing with them anyway until they started bagging my software so what a surprise that was 

Why didn't Hometrader do what many registered TradeSim users do and send me an email to request the features that it said my software "DIDN'T HAVE" and made it a "BIG DISADVANTAGE" as to paraphrase someone well known on HomeTrader's forum ? It's not as though I couldn't add those features in because as you have rightly pointed out, I now have those features incorporated into my software for the benefit of ALL registered users. 

Wouldn't you think that someone who was using your software for FREE for all of these years would actually want to help you improve it instead of stabbing you in the back and throwing you away like a bit of garbage after they got years of FREE use out of you ? Or am I missing something here ? Maybe I am a bit naive and don't really understand how the corporate world works these days !

And how come with their so called new backtesting platform they now offer many training videos which are freely available to its members ? Where are the free training videos for TradeSim in exchange for the many years of FREE use of my software ? There is only one video and you have to pay $400 for it in addition to the $6000 course fee. Why is it not FREE like all of their new backtesting videos are ? Why did I give HomeTrader my software in the first place if they weren’t going to train people how to use it ? My gut feeling dealing with this company was they just did what they wanted to do to benefit their own business and any benefits to my organization were just a side effect and not a high priority. The lack of feedback and transparency from this company and the feedback that I have received from numerous HomeTrader members over the years just confirms this 

Not happy Jan


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## weird

Who is the main guru behind Hometrader, so we can see some public performance ?

Or can we just see some publicly audited performance of any HT system ?

Sorry guys if you go broke, not unusual for persons without any real skills except 'sales' for it to happen.

Sorry direct O/S persons ... there r better jobs.

Post the performance since you started promoting it for any systems sold to any public buyers.


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## weird

HT, if you want to offer me a job, interested in only offers above 500K per year + super. I'll design your systems for each group, and encourage patience. Most likely I will say **** you to management quite abit.


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## jasondavis

Hi,

I am one of the HomeTrader founders.

David from TradeSim apparently has it in for us as you can see.  

I'm not interested in arguing like school children, but the following is simply for the record.  This will be the first and last post I make.

aarbee has fairly much hit the nail on the head with his post but I'll re-iterate a couple of things.

We used TradeSim for our backtesting service using licences issued to us by David on that understanding we promote the product.  We promoted it in a BIG way.  Anyone who was a Member of HT at the time will know that.  I don't know how many people we sent to Paritech to buy it but it would be in the hundreds.  We never asked nor received any commission for this promotion, but we did get some licences in return that we used in training courses and the backtesting service. 

Amibroker came along, it had features which worked better for us so we switched to it.  Apparently that gets up David's goat but we have the right to use whatever software we like!  We now use AB for our backtesting service, training and R&D.

TradeSim is a great product.  I still recommend it to people who don't want to bury themselves in AB code which is significantly more complex than Metastock scripting.  Like aarbee said, congratulations to David for keeping 'up the curve' by continuing to develop TradeSim.

Bottom line is, we were huge advocates of TradeSim and promoted it extensively but moved on when something better for us came along.  David did very well out of the whole experience, perhaps thats why he is so angry now that we are not promoting the product.

Whilst I am here, if anyone wants to get the inside scoop on what HT is all about, you are welcome to attend our Members Meeting in Feb.  

These events are normally closed for the public but we are throwing the doors open this month only.  The event is held in all major capitals for 3.5 hours on a Sat morning.  A major part of the meeting will be around the performance of our systems (out of sample - not backtested).  Some are crap, most are very good, some are simply outstanding.  They are what they are and we show it that way for everyone to see.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with what you see, but at any rate, come along and post your findings on here for everyone to see.  An educated point of view is certainly better than ill-informed speculation as occasionally is seen on forums.

If you would like to attend, you must register at learnshares.com.au/meeting  (put the three w's in front of the address. The forum wouldn't let me post a link as this is my first post).  

Please understand that this invitation does not extent to competitors or people who defame us.  Everyone else, come along and be our guest!

Regards,
Jason Davis
HomeTrader


----------



## TradeSim

I have requested the moderator delete the last post I made in order to protect the interests of the forum and moderator from any possible legal action. Defamation is no small matter, however the abuse of other peoples intellectual property is no small matter either so in fairness I will stick to the facts as I see them.

Here are the facts from my perspective based on evidence that I have witnessed myself and accounts from others including home trader members.


Around 2003 I issued Home Trader with 50 free licenses of TradeSim Enterprise Edition to their staff in exchange for some reciprocal promotion in the form of a simple courtesy notice on each of the charts and reports reproduced from my software. It wasn’t much to ask but HomeTrader never reciprocated and instead later offered the explanation that somehow they forgot about this original deal.

HomeTrader profited from the use of TradeSim and backtesting reports reproduced by TradeSim and I or my company never received any royalties from these reports nor did I request any royalties.

HomeTrader said they could not sell TradeSim because of ASIC restrictions although they boast about how many copies they have sold which is purely based on conjecture. HomeTrader could not sell TradeSim because of ASIC restrictions placed on them according to the following document.

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/pdflib.nsf/LookupByFileName/017029135.pdf/$file/017029135.pdf

If HomeTrader couldn’t sell TradeSim and they didn’t offer their members training for it so then what were they using it for that they claim really benefited my business ?

Home Trader never offered any training of TradeSim to its members although it said it recommended that they buy TradeSim. That in itself is a contradiction because the emphasis has always been on HomeTrader running backtests on their member’s behalf and charging them for this service. This concurs with the feedback I have received from members who have stated that they still don’t know how to put together a trading system and back test it using TradeSim simply because HomeTrader never offered training for it. They also feel that they are still dependent on HomeTrader and have to keep forking out $500 per year for membership.

When I asked HomeTrader to pay for the licenses that they had been using for FREE they resisted my request and pleaded the case as to why I should continue to provide them with free licenses. The person pleading the case also later turned out to be one of the HomeTrader staff members who also denigrated my software on HomeTraders member’s forum. At the same time that I requested HomeTrader pay for TradeSim licenses it appears that they were also working on their own backtesting software. 

When HomeTrader  released their own backtesting software to their members it was not long after that, that their management and staff launched a negative campaign against my software even after they had many years of free use from it. Contrary to what Jason Davis has said at no stage after they released their own back testing software did I see HomeTrader staff and managemnent recommend TradeSim to their members. In fact it was the complete opposite and were critical of TradeSim to sway their members against it in favour of their own products.

In response to a criticism that one of HomeTrader’s staff made about the price of my product HomeTrader removed a post of mine from their own member’s forum on how I stated that HomeTrader did not pay me for the use of my software. It was obvious that they did not want their members to know this salient point.

When I incorporated survivorship bias free backtesting and signal ranking capability into my software, only then did HomeTrader staff stopped criticizing my software for not having these features but contrary to what Jason Davis has stated I have not seen any evidence of HomeTrader recommending my software to anyone even though it now has these features. In fact the criticisms of my software then focused on the price of my software versus theirs. To set the record straight regarding price, survivorship bias free backtesting capability is available in all editions of TradeSim and can be purchased for as low $159 US. This is in contrast to $6000 for a HomeTrader course plus another $400 for their add-ons. As you can see TradeSim is a lot cheaper.

Documents outlining these features are freely available from my website at

Survivorship Bias Free Back Testing using TradeSim.pdf

Provisional Trades and Signal Ranking.pdf

At no time when HomeTrader was using my software for free did they contact myself and request that I add these additional features into my software. In fact the first I heard about these features was when they released their backtesting platform in the middle of 2008 in direct competition with my own product which they had been  using for free for many years.

HomeTrader offer free training videos for their own back testing platform but still charge $400 in addition to their course fee for a DVD on using TradeSim. This DVD has never been offered to the public.

HomeTrader state that ‘I have got it in for them’ because they are using Amibroker. This is not true as they also use Market Analyst and I have never had any problems about that. I am annoyed with them because of the continued denigration of my product on their member’s forum by their staff, as well as their dishonesty in using my software for free whilst working on a competitive product to replacement it. John Day stated that it was their right to use another product. But it is not their right to benefit from the free use of someone else’s intellectual property whilst working on a competing product to compete with it. It is morally reprehensible, an abuse of a privilege and displays a total lack of integrity and honesty as well as being anticompetitive.

HomeTrader state that Equis provided them with free copies of MetaStock for their training computers. They also state that they never obtained these copies through the Australian distributors, Paritech. It is because of this relationship that HomeTrader recommend that I also should provide free copies of TradeSim for their use and not request that they pay me for them.

Jason Davis stated that I have made a lot of money from selling TradeSim. All I can say is that I have never come close to topping his $150,000 executive salary. I have worked very hard to create a product which HomeTrader staff has used and benefited from for FREE and without the millions of dollars of share holder’s money that HomeTrader have raised. I never got a red cent when I developed TradeSim. In fact I didn’t get a brass razzo from anybody not the least HomeTrader with it vast reserves of capital.

I have requested to HomeTrader on numerous occasions to pay me for the 50 copies of TradeSim that it used to promote its own business since they never honored the verbal agreement that I had with them. Not once have they responded to this request except with excuses that simply didn’t make any sense. HomeTrader has ignored my original agreement that I had with them and simply run their business the way that suited themselves without consideration for my needs and with total disregard to the original agreement I had with them.

HomeTrader make out like they have done me a big favour when in reality no one else had true portfolio back testing software at the time that worked with MetaStock. HomeTrader approached me about the use of my software in their business. It was never the other way around. In actual fact I would never have approached them if they didn’t approach me. In previous dealings with them I simply have no confidence with them and this has been born out with my dealings with them at their request over the last few years.​
Regards
David


----------



## TradeSim

To summarize,

Jason Davis is of the opinion that 'I have it in for HomeTrader' and that this is all about HomeTrader using someone else’s software and not my own. It is not ! But he and his staff still doesn’t get it ! When you make an agreement with someone whether verbally or in writing then that means you agree to abide by the terms and conditions of that agreement. It doesn’t mean that you have a poetic license to change the agreement anytime you feel like it before getting authorisation for the changes from the other party. In this case I had to find out years later through some of HomeTrader’s members that HomeTrader did not abide by this original agreement and their lame excuse is that somehow they conveniently forgot about it. That is just not good enough Jason and you know it ! What is even more ironical is HomeTrader now give due courtesy and credit to the author of the charting software they now use for every chart and report reproduced from it  Unfortunately they never did this with my software !

The other major issue is that when I agreed to offer free licenses of TradeSim to HomeTrader it did not give them a license to then go and duplicate the functionality of my software in order to replace it and compete directly against me whilst profiting from the free licenses of TradeSim that were given to them in good faith. Saying that TradeSim lacked certain features is no excuse to do this and at no stage did HomeTrader ever offered me the opportunity to incorporate those features in my software which I eventually did anyway to try and stop their negative campaign against it.

When I issued free licenses of TradeSim to HomeTrader it was supposed to be used responsibly and promoted it in the way that was agreed upon. Instead HomeTrader have taken advantage of this privilege and gone about and plagiarized my intellectual property for anticompetitive means. Jason can make any lame excuse he likes but he cannot deny what has transpired. HomeTrader did the wrong thing by me and Jason should stop playing games and stop denying it. Jason, this is as clear as night and day to me and many of your members who have contacted me. Only you and HomeTrader cannot see it !

At the end of the day I feel used up and exploited by this company and hung out to dry without proper compensation. I have repeatedly requested that I be paid for all of the free licenses of TradeSim that I issued to HomeTrader but to no avail ! Seems to have fallen on deaf ears and the only time I get a response out of them is when I post stuff on my own website or on a public forum such as this one !

If any software authors are reading this then use this as an example of what NOT to do when dealing with a publically listed company. When making an agreement DO NOT rely on verbal agreements, because depending on who you deal with some agreements are just not worth the paper they are written on. Get everything in writing and checked over by a lawyer to make it iron clad before you go a step further. Also make sure there are ways of auditing the business you are dealing with. In my case there was none and HomeTrader took advantage of that and went out of their way to keep me in the dark. Mushroom principle !! Beware !!

Regards
David Samborsky


----------



## weird

Found this on the internet, I am naive ... I don't know what it is or if I am posting in the right thread ... also I did not post the above content or make it available for every one on the internet to see. 

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/HTWLTech/message/10


----------



## weird

Quote below of code found in the "" public yahoo forum - Home Trader Wealth-Lab Tech Forum, from robertmarkaitken ... this "may" be related, just guessing because don't know, could be related to the star, stripes and eagle systems that HT, I believe may have been promoting at one stage.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/HTWLTech/message/10

"Here is my effort at coding the MR Short system - Eagle.
I have plotted all the indicators on the chart so you can see what
is happening and check it. I have also set up the variables for
optimising.
The only thing I havent done is write the simuscript for percentage
risk position sizing.
It backtests very similarly to the results we have been given so I
think I ve got it pretty right. Sone of the gurus might be able to
speed it up a bit though as the chartscript seems to run pretty slow.

Anyway - Im hoping that this will start the ball rolling

Please post any queries, improvements, suggestions etc here so
everyone can benefit from them.

here's the code:

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

{$I 'HTFunctions'}

// Declare variables for optimising
var Bar: integer;
var FS: float;
Var HigherCloses, ATRlow, ATRhigh, perATRlow, perATRHigh, Turnover,
MaaMult: integer;

//Set up Variables for Optimising
HigherCloses := 5; // 5 = No Consecutive higher closes
ATRlow := 10; // 10 = ATR high period
ATRHigh := 50; // 50 = ATR Low period
perATRlow := 2; // 2 = %ATR high period
perATRHigh := 5; // 5 = %ATR Low period
MaaMult := 2; // 2 = Moving average angle gate
multiplier
Turnover := 30000000; // 30M = Turnover

//Calculate Average Turnover
var SMAVol10, SMAClo10, VolxClo10: integer;

SMAVol10 := SMASeries( #Volume, 10 );
SMAClo10 := SMASeries( #Close, 10 );
VolxClo10 := MultiplySeries( SMAVol10, SMAClo10);

//************************************ Set up Graphs
********************************//
var Gate1, Gate2, Gate3, Gate4, Gate5, Gate6: string;
var Pane1, Pane2, Pane3, Pane4, Pane5, Pane6: integer;

// Written description of gate conditions.
Gate1 := 'Gate1 = 5 consequtive higher closes';
Gate2 := 'Gate2 = TBC';
Gate3 := 'Gate3 = ATR(10) > ATR(50)';
Gate4 := 'Gate4 = Atr(10) > 2 and < 5';
Gate5 := 'Gate5 = TBC';
Gate6 := 'Gate6 = Turnover > $30 Million';

// Set up pane sizes
Pane1 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );
Pane2 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );
Pane3 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );
Pane4 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );
Pane5 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );
Pane6 := CreatePane( 20, true, true );

// Adding titles to graphs
DrawText( Gate1, Pane1, 2, 1, #red, 8 );
DrawText( Gate2, Pane2, 2, 1, #red, 8 );
DrawText( Gate3, Pane3, 2, 1, #red, 8 );
DrawText( Gate4, Pane4, 2, 1, #red, 8 );
DrawText( Gate5, Pane5, 2, 1, #red, 8 );
DrawText( Gate6, Pane6, 2, 1, #red, 8 );

for Bar := 50 to BarCount - 1 do
begin

// Color Markings to visually determine if trigger and gates are
programmed OK

// Gate1 - 5 consecutive higher closes
if Cumup( Bar, #Close, 1 ) >= HigherCloses then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane1, Bar, PriceHigh( Bar ), #blue, #thin );

// Gate2 - HT Displacement
if pricehigh(bar) >HTDisplacementShortUS(Bar, #low, 7 ,25, 3)then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane2, Bar, PriceHigh( Bar ), #blue, #thin );

// Gate3 - Atr(10) > Atr(50)
if atr(bar,ATRlow) > atr(bar,ATRhigh ) then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane3, Bar, PriceHigh( Bar ), #blue, #thin );

// Gate4 - Atr(10) > 2 and < 5
if ( atr(bar,10) / sma(bar,#close,10) ) * 100 > PerATRlow then
if ( atr(bar,10) / sma(bar,#close,10) ) * 100 < perATRhigh then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane4, Bar, PriceHigh( Bar ), #blue, #Thin );

// Gate5 - MAA Gate
if ( SMA(Bar, #Close, 40) <
SMA(Bar-10, #Close, 40) + MaaMult * ATR(bar,40) ) then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane5, Bar, Pricehigh( Bar ), #blue, #Thin );

// Gate6 - Turnover > $30 Million
if (lowest(bar,VolxClo10,50) > Turnover) then
DrawCircle( 4, Pane6, Bar, Pricehigh( Bar ), #blue, #Thin );
end;

// Execute the System
for Bar := 50 to BarCount - 1 do
begin

if not LastPositionActive then
if Cumup( Bar, #Close, 1 ) >= HigherCloses
then // Gate 1
if pricehigh(bar) >HTDisplacementShortUS(Bar, #low, 7 ,25, 3)
then // Gate 2
if atr(bar,ATRlow) > atr(bar,ATRhigh )
then // Gate 3
if ( atr(bar,10) / sma(bar,#close,10) ) * 100 > PerATRlow
then // Gate 4
if ( atr(bar,10) / sma(bar,#close,10) ) * 100 < perATRhigh
then // Gate 4
if ( SMA(Bar, #Close, 40)
< // Gate 5
SMA(Bar-10, #Close, 40) + MaaMult * ATR(bar,40) ) then
if (lowest(bar,VolxClo10,50) > Turnover)
then // Gate 6

// Entry Conditions
if ShortAtlimit(Bar+1,pricehigh(bar)+ 0.5*atr(bar,10),'Limit
entry') then

// calculate Fixed Stop
FS := Priceclose(Bar)+ 6 * ATR(bar,10 );

// Exit Conditions
CoverAtlimit(Bar + 1, pricelow(bar-2),lastposition, 'Limit exit');
CoverAtStop(Bar + 1, FS ,lastposition, 'Fixed stop');

ApplyAutoStops (Bar+1);

End;

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

"

Hey HT, don't blame me, the **** is on the internet, someone would find it sooner than later.


----------



## cudderbean

I went to a SIM presentation donkeys years ago, never signed up, but gleaned enough info that it is basically a swing trading system that is public knowledge on the net... wait for retracement after a recent high, then buy in on "a higher hi and higher lo" after a support level is formed. Throw in a few Fibonacci numbers and watch out for resistance when it hits the previous high. This was years ago , and probably they have refined their system with a few more proprietary indicators now. Good luck to them. The basic idea as oulined above is pretty good and is easily programmable in Bullcharts (beats Metastock in the pure toolbox category IMHO because of the fantastic easy transference of lists of codes between BC and other software such as Excel which can be transferred again into broker watchlists... well, some brokers...thereby hangs another tale).

About 3 years ago I also attended seminars with Gryphon Learning and Sharefinder. They both seemed impressive in that they threw up charts ad hoc from audience requests for analysis. I was very tempted but never bought either. 

Their seminars were always well attended. Just curious ... if any forum members here bought into Sharefinder, Gryphon, Hometrader or Safety in the Market and followed instructions dilligently. How did you fare in the crash from Nov 2007 till April 2009?

Thanks for your help


----------



## joelbaby

Hi David,

not sure why you're bringing up stuff from 2003 and 2005 in 2010.  I am an ex member of staff - not a director.  I no longer have any association with HomeTrader. You forget some simple historical facts:

1.  You decided to give the licences to HomeTrader in exchange for cross promotion.  Nobody forced you to do this.

2.  Whilst HT used those licences Tradesim was promoted heavily to thousands of members nationwide.  I remember buying Tradesim as a result of seeing what it could do in a 'members meeting' in late 2003 when I was a member myself.  I am sure I was not alone in my purchase.

3.  At some point you decided that HT should pay for the licences you had given to them for free.

4.  You suspended the licenses.  I remember because one of our computers had to be reinstalled, and you allowed special one-off permission to reinstall the software.  Then you re-suspended the licenses.

5.  Every time Tradesim was used to my knowledge Compuvision and/or the Tradesim software was acknowledged.   This acknowledgement was included in writing in training materials, backtests, and verbally in classes and members meetings.

6.  HT started experimenting with Amibroker.  Amibroker turned out to be 50x faster than Metastock and Tradesim, and cost around 5-10x less.  Is that 'bagging' the product or just a fact?

7.  Amibroker has features that Tradesim/Metastock doesn't have, and still doesn't have that you ignore.  One of the main features is the ability to optimise a system (i.e. systematically change the values of indicators).  Amibroker can do 50 backtests at the click of a button, and view a 3D graph of the results.  In Metastock and Tradesim you can't do this, it takes ages.  You need to run each back test manually, and save the output file with a different filename, record the results manually, change the code, and rerun the back test.  I know - I spent literally dozens of hours doing just that in 2003,2004, 2005, and 2006.

8.  In the period that HT used Amibroker and Tradesim at the same time, it was made abundantly clear to members that if they wanted to electronically back test their own systems:
   a. Metastock and Tradesim are simple to use and learn, and cost over$1,000 for the package.  HomeTrader also offered a training video for sale on how to use Tradesim.
   b.  Amibroker is highly technical to use, and should only be used by keen programmers, but is cheap - around $200.

If you call that 'bagging' the software then so be it.  To me there is a tradeoff, and people can choose which tradeoff they are willing to accept. 

9.  We also tried out Wealthlab software, which had a high programming capability, but was slow and crashed a lot.

10.  We also tried out BullCharts, which in my opinion is superior to Metastock, but was at the time even slower than Metastock at backtesting.

11.  Although you wanted money after you changed your mind about giving HT free licences, you NEVER accepted the fact that HT had sent you literally dozens if not hundreds of customers during the period 2003-2008.  To this day you label this as 'conjecture'.

12.  Where your logic falls down is that if so much 'gain' was made by HT for using your software in front of so many people, then how did they get away with it by keeping the fact they were using Tradesim a 'secret'?  The fact is I personally introduced Tradesim to hundreds of people, the pricing options, and how to get hold of a copy of Tradesim.

13.  HT could not directly sell Tradesim at one point in time, because their ASIC licence limited them to using Bourse and Metastock Software.  Even though Tradesim was an add-on to Metastock, it was not considered part of the licence.

14.  HT did sell a backtesting video to teach people how to use Tradesim.  The video was created by 2 members of Hometrader.  There was a deal (to which I am not privvy) whereby those individuals received a fee for each copy of the software sold.  For licensing and IP reasons the software was sold to existing HT members only.  Where's your tutorial video? - I don't remember one for the period 2003-2008.  To my knowledge HomeTrader is the only company who has ever produced this.  Every person who bought the backtesting tuition video is likely to have seperately bought the Tradesim software (otherwise there wouldn't be much point in buying the tutorial).

15.  HT didn't 'steal' any of your IP.  Name one thing that was 'stolen'.  HomeTrader had their systems, which were programmed into a number of different computer programs.  For a while, Tradesim was the best software out there.

16.  Tradesim is an add-on to Metastock and Bullcharts.  Therefore you are hamstrung by 3rd parties as to the overall capabilities and business destiny of your software.

17.  Occasionally you would make changes to the software which:
   a. Produced different back test results to previous versions of the software!
   b. Slowed down the software.  (that annoying thing in the bottom right hand corner that would pop up and scroll hundreds of lines).
     - We helped identify those problems, which took you a few months to fix.
     - We had to figure out what the exact problem was by looking through pages of output and charts to find out what you had changed in your software - yet not bothered to tell anyone.
      - HomeTrader had no control over new releases which would yet again produce a different result, or slow the software down. 

18.  By moving to software which was fully programmed by us, we controlled the algorithms used to ensure that back tests were accurate, and stayed accurate.

19.  You tried entering into a commercial deal to sell a 3rd party add-on for Amibroker, but got knocked back.  I suspect if you had managed to do this, you wouldn't be so vitriolic against HomeTrader because they would probably use it and promote it.


20.  I suspect that you are sour because you didn't have as many new purchases from around 2008 onwards, which partly demonstrates that HT had a positive impact on your business.  Additionally, HT had a decline in sales during the gobal financial crisis, as I suspect - so did you.

21.  When did you ever come into a HomeTrader office in any Australian capital city, and speak face-to-face with a trainer, or attend a class, or a members meeting to see how your software was being promoted?   Obviously you were too busy to find the time do that for 6 years, and one day the money stopped rolling in.  And now you're looking for people to blame.

The fact is that innovations in Metastock/Tradesim could not keep up with the innovations that were coming out from Amibroker.  From around Metastock version 7.2 onwards there were hardly any new features produced by Equis that were worth the money - a fact you pointed out in your own promotional material - no doubt to the chagrin of Equis who also appear unwilling to maintain a commercial deal with you.  I notice that Tradesim is conspicuous in its absense from its 3rd party add-on section.
   equis.com/products/thirdparty

Vista was the best thing that happened to Equis as it unwittingly forced some people to shell out for an upgrade.  Metastock's only lasting legacy is its file format used for storing stock price information.

Amibroker on the other hand comes out with new features almost monthly.  Amibroker eclipsed Metastock, Bullcharts and other software in terms of functionality a couple of years ago, and Tradesim has suffered as a result because it never managed to partner commericially with Amibroker.

I look forward to your:

1.  New software that is not a 3rd party add-on.
2.  Tutorial videos.
3.  Increased sales.
4.  New forward looking perspective.

You had some good insights into backtesting trading systems a few years ago, and life seemed more positive back then.  You're clearly a clever and innovative man, so why not reharness that positive energy.

Joel


----------



## TradeSim

joelbaby said:


> Hi David,
> 
> 19.  You tried entering into a commercial deal to sell a 3rd party add-on for Amibroker, but got knocked back.  I suspect if you had managed to do this, you wouldn't be so vitriolic against HomeTrader because they would probably use it and promote it.
> 
> Joel




Hello Joel

What on earth are you talking about ? I don’t use Amibroker, nor have I ever developed any 3rd party add-ons or sold anything for it !! I tried to use it once long ago and I found it was cumbersome to display charts using MetaStock data so I put it away. Things may have changed since then but your allegations are completely false.

However it is true that a lot of TradeSim users use TradeSim with Amibroker and some have requested that I write a direct interface similar to the one that I provide with MetaStock. But I have not bothered with it because of other commitments. Even if I did write one I would give it away with TradeSim and wouldn’t charge people any extra for it. Someone else who is more familiar with Amibroker can write it. 

You keep talking about sour grapes. You bet there are sour grapes !! HT used my software for NOTHING whilst PROFITING from its use. It did not pay me for the 50  or so licenses that I issued to them for FREE nor did it offer to pay me anything for my efforts ! HT did not sell any copies of TradeSim or provide any free training material to its members like it does with Amibroker. Then one day out of the blue HT  release their own back testing platform in direct competition with mine for which they must have been working on whilst they were pleading with me to renew their FREE licenses. To add insult to injury they launched a negative campaign against my own software for not having certain features that they had incorporated into their software that my software did not had at the time but now has. (they soon shut up after that when I included those features)  Yes I think any normal person would have sour grapes about that don’t you ? 

And what I find remarkable in your defence of HomeTrader is that all of your comments focus on nitpicking at the capabilities or lack of capabilities of certain charting packages that HomeTrader does not actually promote. You talk about how cheap Amibroker is compared to the others but not once do you mention the $8000 HomeTrader course fee plus the cost of the extra code packs needed to use this $200 charting package.

Also HomeTrader offers Market Analyst to its members for an additional fee above the cost of the $8000 course fee. How come when doing comparisons between various software packages you fail to mention the capabilities of this package ? Not that the success of a trader should be gauged by how many bells and whistles a particular charting package has but you lot seem to want to make a big issue out features that you have and that nobody else has. So where does Market Analyst fall into the scheme of things ? Care to enlighten us ? This is not to single out Market Analysts or make any slur against it but I can’t help thinking that if HomeTrader did not use Market Analyst then Market Analyst would be standing on the same side of fence as myself and other vendors software that you have criticized and you would then be nit picking at Market Analyst as well !

When HomeTrader starts talking about the low cost of a certain charting package that it recommends as compared to other packages it then creates an issue for itself because it then has to justify why it charges people $8000 plus extras for their course. On the one hand you can’t talk about how cheap a certain package is as though it is going save people lots of money when you expect them to spend another $8000 plus the cost of additional code packs just so they can use it the way you want them to use it.

The truth of the matter for anyone reading this is that HomeTrader’s course is now $8000 and they no longer support training for MetaStock. I believe they have even removed the FREE copies of MetaStock that were installed on their training computers. If you are willing to fork out 8k for their course and are expecting training for MetaStock then you will be disappointed. Also after forking out 8k for their course they will expect you to buy Amibroker plus spend another $400 or so on code packs. The 8K includes 1 year access to their forum and you will have to fork out $500 per year there after just to access their forum and trainers.

Kind Regards
David


----------



## joelbaby

Hi David,

your post is wrong on a number of levels.
For a start whilst I was there:

1.  Hometrader gave back testing classes, demonstrated Tradesim in those classes for free, created systems in the class for free, and gave people the Metastock/Tradesim code to use in their own copy of the software for free.  This was done at no extra charge - contrary to your assertions.

2. Code for use in MS/TS was given to members at meetings, given to them on the forum, and given to them in classes.  *The code would not be useable if Tradesim was not purchased by the client.* 

3.  I gave classes and told people how to buy Tradesim, either directly through your website or via paritech.  Personally I promoted the compuvision website method.

4.  Most people did not pay extra for Tradesim back tests.  Further - those tests contained several acknowledgements of Tradesim/Compuvision.  Arbee mentioned this too, but you decided to ignore the facts he put forward.

5.  There were legacy members of HomeTrader who may have purchased older packages that did not include indivualised back tests, or certain versions of 3rd party software.  However those members would certainly have been able to get free Tradesim code, and seen Tradesim working all for free.

If points 1,2,3,4, and 5 are not promotion of your software, I'm not sure what is.

6. As far as I know HomeTrader didn't develop its own backtesting software.  It has always used other packages, such as Metastock, Amibroker, Market Analyst etc..  What HomeTrader sells is not the software, but the IP and code to make it work effectively.  Just because you buy a hammer - it doesn't make you a good carpenter.  Same with software - Metastock doesn't make you a good trader.  You need to be taught how to use it, and shown systems with historical profitability, and how to develop your own systems.

7. Tradesim was great software for a while, but in the period 2002-2008 other software emerged with different capabalities.  Although you promote the $75 trial, the full cost would be over $2,000 because you also need to buy Metastock, plus the $1500 licence for the version you mention.  So you're basically an apprentice carpenter with a very expensive tool set.  It's the indian not the arrow.  That's where HomeTrader comes in.

8. Not once did you bother to come in and see anyone to talk about or monitor how your software was promoted.  In 6 years you just never had the time, always too busy to see a company who apparently was worth so important to your business?  Last time I checked, lasting business partnerships are best maintained with face-to-face relationships.

9. I suspect the money stopped rolling in when the capabilities of Metastock along with the enhancements provided by Tradesim were overtaken by over software.


If there is anything to be learnt on your end I guess its ... get it in writing, or put it in writing, then get it signed.

Hindsight has proved and will continue to be a great trading and business profitability tool for many people.


Joel


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## TradeSim

Wait a minute Joel. 

What is this 3rd party add-on for Amibroker that I was supposed to have sold but got knocked back ?? You have made an assertion so you need to explain yourself there and not just ignore it.

You also told me once that Paritech resold the Back Testing Made Simple DVD. Paritech told me that they have no such record of ever selling this DVD.

Also did HomeTrader ever allow its members unfettered access to any of those licensed copies of TradeSim that I gave to them ? I can't imagine HomeTrader training people how to use TradeSim and at the same time wanting to profit from selling back testing reports from it ? Does that make any sense to you ?

Did your course notes include a section in it on training people how to use TradeSim ? The reason I ask this is because I have received feedback from  a number of your members who state that they still don't know how to put together a basic trading system and back test it using TradeSim. They also stated to me that your course notes did not include any information on how to use TradeSim.

If you provided training for TradeSim why was there a need to create a Back Testing Made Simple DVD and charge another $400 for it ?

And now that you admit that TradeSim is of no use to you why do you still sell the TradeSim tutorial DVD and why don't you sell it to the general public so it could save them $8000 on doing your course ?

regards
David


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## joelbaby

Hi David,

also I forgot to add that HomeTrader membership included 1 on 1 coaching sessions.  (I've been out of HomeTrader for a while so dont know what membership includes in 2010).

People chose what they wanted the 1 on 1 session to be about, and some did choose Tradesim.  Many members had signed up for unlimited sessions, and they would last 1 hour each.

People could either use my laptop, or they would bring in their own laptop with their own copy of Tradesim and we would go through it then.  This would include interpreting the results, changing variables both in the metastock code, and within tradesim.  For some people it got quite complex, and we would look at the interatction of multiple system in different market conditions.

Most members had access to a trainer for free, for 1 hour at a time.  Some people abused it a little and got someone to make tons of changes to a system for them, week after week.  Others used the time to learn key points, so they could use Tradesim at home better.  One guy I remember well would come in quite regularly to see me to discuss what he'd done in Tradesim.  He wasn't the only person I'd helped with Tradesim.  Some people would email me questions about their Tradesim code, but I would generally encourage them to come in for a 1 on 1 personal session to discuss.

All this at no extra charge to the course fee they had paid.

As I said before, its the Indian not the Arrow, and Hometrader taught people how to use the tools.

Hometrader provided people with a host of facilities to ask questions including: classes, a phone hotline, large scale open meetings, one-to-one sessions, and an internet chat site.  You can't stop people asking questions in any forum - and all they have to do is ask.  Whether they took the opportunities presented to them was up to them.

If people wanted the most open opportunity to improve their trading then HomeTrader was it.  It certainly wan't a fly-in-fly out gig in a hotel, with a hard sell for the first 20 people to get to the back of the room, and being sold magic software at an inflated price.


As I say, I can only comment on what I saw when I was there.  HomeTrader has moved on now.  What the course is now, what gets discussed on the forum, and the members meeting, and in classes isn't my concern.

But certainly I can vouch for what happend for around 6 years.

If people wanted the best opportunity to develop a variety of mechanical trading sytems, then HomeTrader provided it in spades.


Joel


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## TradeSim

joelbaby said:


> Hi David,
> 
> also I forgot to add that HomeTrader membership included 1 on 1 coaching sessions.  (I've been out of HomeTrader for a while so dont know what membership includes in 2010).
> 
> People chose what they wanted the 1 on 1 session to be about, and some did choose Tradesim.  Many members had signed up for unlimited sessions, and they would last 1 hour each.
> 
> Joel




Yes but did HomeTrader provide formal training in the use of TradeSim ?

Did your course notes cover the use of TradeSim ?

Were some of the licenses that I issued to HomeTrader installed on its training computers ?

Also why would someone have to pay HomeTrader $8000 just so they can pay another $400 to buy the following DVD which I assume that HomeTrader still sell ?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080718195515/www.backtestingmadesimple.com.au/

Given that you no longer endorse TradeSim and spend most of your time criticizing it both here and on your forum, why do you still sell this DVD, and why was it never sold to the general public even though that website which is no longer available, was publicly accessible but the product could only be purchased by members who had paid in excess of $6000 or so for their membership ?

It appears that this DVD offering is more about the self promotion of HomeTrader than it is about promoting TradeSim. And it also appears that everything that HomeTrader did and still does is about it's own self promotion and signing up people for expensive courses. This notion that somehow HomeTrader ran its business to specifically help me out is totally absurd and only an idiot would buy that explanation.

Also I will like to pull you up on an error that you made earlier in regards to BullCharts which you stated ran back tests to slowly. We'll as far as I know this is not possible because BullCharts does not have a back tester and is designed to interface directly with TradeSim.

regards
David


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## brty

Sorry, can't help myself anymore...

If you need any of the systems/software described in this thread to trade, then you really don't know what you are doing, so stay away from the markets, period.

If you believe any software is helping you, then you are on the learning curve, and hopefully you will eventually get over this hump..

brty


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## Paulo30

Yeah, great last post there.

The complexity of the thread was causing most people to glaze over in front of their computer screens I am sure.

If anyone needs 20 functions on backtesting software, I dare say they have lost the plot as far as trading goes.
Just remember that a few decades ago, people were trading successfully with paper, pencils and a few rulers..




brty said:


> Sorry, can't help myself anymore...
> 
> If you need any of the systems/software described in this thread to trade, then you really don't know what you are doing, so stay away from the markets, period.
> 
> If you believe any software is helping you, then you are on the learning curve, and hopefully you will eventually get over this hump..
> 
> brty


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## Karen S

Hello David

I have just found this thread so hope that you are still reading it.

I was a member of Hometrader from 2003 to about 2007.  I stopped being a member when I had made no money from trading any systems, whether my own or whether produced by Hometrader.  When I posted questions about profitability on the Hometrader forum I did not ever receive a response from anyone who said that they were making a living (or even making consistent money) from system trading.  I came to the conclusion that it was not possible to make consistent money from sharetrading and so stopped.  Fortunately I stopped trading before the GFC and so did not lose any money.

So lets get this straight.  I am not affiliated with Hometrader and I am not endorsing them in any way.

However, I will say that when I was a member, Hometrader actively promoted Tradesim and suggested that we go out and purchase a copy.  I, and just about everyone I did the course with, did buy a copy.  I had some backtesting of my systems done by Hometrader, for which I did not pay any money.  Certainly in 2003 - 2004 Tradesim was the backtesting program of choice and I was told that the only way to produce an effective system and backtest it properly was to have my own copy of Tradesim.

It is simply not true to say that your program was not promoted by Hometrader.  It was, and very heavily so.  You most certainly did profit for a lengthy period of time because of your affiliation with Hometrader.

Cheers

Karen


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## brty

Karen,



> I came to the conclusion that it was not possible to make consistent money from sharetrading and so stopped.




I'm glad you stopped before losing money, however I feel your conclusion is incorrect.

The correct conclusion to draw is that the 'software' methodology by following others is not where money is to be made in share trading. Also add that you have not worked out how to make money, not that money cannot be made.



> I was told that the only way to produce an effective system......




Why on earth would you believe someone who sells products knows anything about what works?? Why are they selling and not trading the super-dooper system if it made money??



> I did not ever receive a response from anyone who said that they were making a living (or even making consistent money) from system trading.




Yet there are people here in this forum who make money consistently, and I would suggest that ALL of them use their OWN parameters that they have research on that shows positive expectancy.

brty


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## Karen S

Hi brty

I don't want to get into a huge debate about whether my conclusions were right or wrong or whether I was gullible or naive or whether my money was well spent.  My post was simply to correct David's perception that he was "ripped off" by Hometrader because his product was not promoted.  My comments about my cessation of trading and the conclusions I came to were just to give some background about me and to establish that I was not a Hometrader "plant" (as I know quite often happens on forums when a negative comment is made about a product).

Having said that, now that I have (only just!) stopped having babies and now have a bit of time to devote to sharetrading again, I am interested in looking at different products, software etc with a view to resuming trading.  It is good to know that there are people out there making money from trading!  I plan to become an observer on this forum for a while and take in all the information I can before I resume trading again.

Cheers

Karen  



brty said:


> Karen,
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad you stopped before losing money, however I feel your conclusion is incorrect.
> 
> The correct conclusion to draw is that the 'software' methodology by following others is not where money is to be made in share trading. Also add that you have not worked out how to make money, not that money cannot be made.
> 
> 
> 
> Why on earth would you believe someone who sells products knows anything about what works?? Why are they selling and not trading the super-dooper system if it made money??
> 
> 
> 
> Yet there are people here in this forum who make money consistently, and I would suggest that ALL of them use their OWN parameters that they have research on that shows positive expectancy.
> 
> brty


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## brty

Karen,



> I am interested in looking at different products, software etc with a view to resuming trading.




I think you missed my main point, the above statement seems to show it.

The 'answer' to trading is that it is not in a product or software, it is in the trader themselves. You need to look in the right places. Reading and research is a good place to start, you can spend many days looking through this site to get a background on what is necessary.

Look at some systems, mentioned by different people over the years, and then go to an online charting service and see how that system performs, then check others. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

brty


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## Karen S

Hi brty

Are you suggesting that there is a way of backtesting systems without using any software?  

Karen


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## tech/a

As a Hometrader member (Past) you'd have Metastock and Tradesim?

What more do you need?


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## Karen S

Yeah, I have both Metastock and Tradesim.  But I found that the backtesting results were not consistent with the current performance of the systems I was using.  Even backtesting the systems for the period I was trading gave different results for various reasons.

I have been reading a bit more about backtesting programs that seem to have advanced a bit since I was trading.

Karen


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## TradeSim

Karen S said:


> Hello David
> 
> I have just found this thread so hope that you are still reading it.
> 
> I was a member of Hometrader from 2003 to about 2007.  I stopped being a member when I had made no money from trading any systems, whether my own or whether produced by Hometrader.  When I posted questions about profitability on the Hometrader forum I did not ever receive a response from anyone who said that they were making a living (or even making consistent money) from system trading.  I came to the conclusion that it was not possible to make consistent money from sharetrading and so stopped.  Fortunately I stopped trading before the GFC and so did not lose any money.
> 
> So lets get this straight.  I am not affiliated with Hometrader and I am not endorsing them in any way.
> 
> However, I will say that when I was a member, Hometrader actively promoted Tradesim and suggested that we go out and purchase a copy.  I, and just about everyone I did the course with, did buy a copy.  I had some backtesting of my systems done by Hometrader, for which I did not pay any money.  Certainly in 2003 - 2004 Tradesim was the backtesting program of choice and I was told that the only way to produce an effective system and backtest it properly was to have my own copy of Tradesim.
> 
> It is simply not true to say that your program was not promoted by Hometrader.  It was, and very heavily so.  You most certainly did profit for a lengthy period of time because of your affiliation with Hometrader.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Karen




Hello Karen.

Other members have told me the complete opposite to your experience. What is the use of HomeTrader telling people to go out and buy TradeSim when they are not willing to offer hands on training for it ? Did HomeTrader offer you hands on training on how to use TradeSim ? They should have because at one stage I had issued over 50 free licenses to them so I assumed that some of these licenses would be made available to their members in their classroom computers. If not why not ? It seems that it was more beneficial for them to flog a DVD on how to use TradeSim rather than offer training on how to use TradeSim as part of their $6000 course. This DVD is still not being offered to the general public. Why not ?

Nobody can prove how many HomeTrader members actually purchased TradeSim because HomeTrader never actually sold TradeSim directly. All I asked HomeTrader to do was to pay me for the copies of TradeSim that they had been using for free for years in its business. That wasn't to much to ask ! No offer was ever made, instead at the time I canceled their free licenses they were already working on their own software in competition to my own and eventually turned against me bagging my product on their own forum. That is pretty poor compensation from a company that had raised millions from its shareholders and was charging $6000 from each of its thousands of members and not to mention money that it obtained from its back testing service using free copies of my software.

Where did all of the money go because I have never seen a cent from them ? HomeTrader have this bazaar attitude of charging megabucks for anything they offer but paying a pittance for other peoples intellectual property. They can afford to be like this because they are using other peoples money and not their own. Essentially their business is not viable. They have burnt through millions of dollars of investors money as well as getting freebies from software vendors such as myself and they still can't make a profit for their shareholders. 

I'm sorry you made no money from trading HomeTrader's systems. Other people have told me the same thing. Maybe you expected results within to short a period of time or maybe the systems backtested well in a bull market for that instance of time but generally performs poorly otherwise. The way that HomeTrader constructs its systems using trade ranking and tests them means that you never see the potential downside of the system. Also, were the systems tested over periods of adverse conditions such as a bear market, sideways or volatile markets, market corrections and crashes ?

HomeTrader use the idea of ranking trades. This severely restricts a portfolio trading system from being thoroughly analysed because it always forces a fixed outcome and only shows one instance of many possible which does not wholly characterize a trading system. It is possible that  the system generally performs poorly and that the ranking applied to the trades just happened to show up well for that instance in time. These things can normally be tested using the Enterprise Edition of TradeSim which has a Monte Carlo analysis for which HomeTrader had free access to.

A lot of people are under the illusion that back testing is a guarantee of future performance but it is not and should only be used as a means to find out what conditions a system can be broken rather than be used as a guarantee of future profitability.

Regards
David


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## TradeSim

Hello Karen

The other point I would like to make is that a lot of the things that HomeTrader tried to do with TradeSim were things that TradeSim was not designed to do. Things such as signal ranking were kludged using Pyramid Trades. We have since added the correct procedures to do signal ranking with TradeSim but I do not recommend this style of trading anyway since it really hides a lot about the true performance of a portfolio trading system. This is why HomeTrader never endorsed Monte Carlo analysis because the signal ranking always fixed the outcome so there was no variance in the system which sort of defeats the point of trading a portfolio anyway.

You are quite welcome to try these new features since you are a registered TradeSim user and updates are free to all registered users.

Regards
David


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