# I never realized just how puny and insignificant I am



## Rob_ee (21 February 2007)

Today I saw things that really astonished me.

Two much hyped about stocks GPN and todays listing YRR majority owned by GPN...

Turnover volume aprx 112 Million (Yes 112 Mil) in GPN.

Open .07
High .073 pressumably those who simply had to get on prior to YRR listing at 12pm (heavily hyped as oversubscribed Uranium player)
(Action on YRR is another story by itself.}

AND THEN the heavy dumping by the big boys ... Institutions?? Super rich Day traders??

I watched it all unfold for the entire day ... on the IRESS screen where the action happens by the second automatically.

2 million .. 3 million on the BID and ASK side wiped out in a blink of an eye by massive single transactions.

At one stage from 7.3c to a low of 5.2c a 33% range on the day.
And the odd part is that a lot of (smart - Professional) people must have lost a heap of money.
There were Millions in single bids being bought all the way from 7.3c down
so its impossible to say how many of those are still holding?
A million shares even at 1/10th of a cent drop is a $1000 a tick lost.

Just who were these people??? Did the professionals slowly accumulate over the past week knowing (as we all did) that YRR would likely open at a 200% premium because it was heavily oversubscribed and the smaller guys would get sucked in along the way?

So why am I writing about GPN?

Because I got caught in the Hype and bought (regret it now that I've had time to reflect)

This came up on MS on the 2/2 as a buy on a recent high 5.2c
Since I always wait for a slight dip and retracement (AND boy did it retrace today) I thought I had missed the boat with this one.

Watching it fall, stabilize and rise slightly I jumped in 2 ticks higher.
I think the big problem now will be for any major retracement in the short term because a LOT of people must be sitting on big losses and might sell into any rally.

This day trading on penny stocks gives one a big buzz ... well I am a beginner and don't know any better.. BUT IS VERY RISKY .. after all I may have bought at open today    

SO once I am stopped out of GPN I'll be out of here.
I know that potentially the biggest gains can be made in this type of stock price range but I'll try something more sedate.

I have already modified one line in my MS exploration to read AND C>O AND C>.30 so the EXT's and GPN's AND YML's wont come up untill they pressumably have found something to mine and not just holes in the ground.
Of course I will have missed the bottoms but even ZFX and PDN were 30c stocks once.

Sorry if this post doesn't make any sense but I am still in a state of shock after the going ons today   

Incidentally the puny and Insignificant title was because I bought 41000k 

Rob


----------



## YOUNG_TRADER (23 February 2007)

Mate when I was 18yrs old I borrowed money from the bank under a personal loan and began investing,

Over the course of 18 months I had turned $5k into $25k,

One the morning of October 23rd 2003 I decided to take a big day trade,

I bought $100k worth of EXT @ 3c on open, by the end of the day it was worth close to 2c, I had no choice but to close out the trade 3 days later at 2c, (I'll never forget those 3days I just lay on my bed near my computer for 3days curled up in a fetal position)

My total loss was $33k+ in a few days I had wiped out my entire net worth which had taken me sometime to build, in fact I needed to borrow another $8k on my credit card, 

Anyway long story short, I worked my **** off to pay off the debt, got back on the horse and started investing again in early 2004

3 yrs on and I make $50k on most short term investments now,


My point is keep at it, if you work hard enough at it you'll get there one day, all these Millionaires and Billionaires had to start somewhere

"The journey of a million miles starts with one step" so good luck to you my friend


----------



## CanOz (23 February 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> Mate when I was 18yrs old I borrowed money from the bank under a personal loan and began investing,
> 
> Over the course of 18 months I had turned $5k into $25k,
> 
> ...




Great post YT! 

Do you do anything differently now?

Cheers,


----------



## Techbuy (23 February 2007)

CanOz said:
			
		

> Great post YT!
> 
> Do you do anything differently now?
> 
> Cheers,




I agree with CanOz, some more stories like this will encourage us all.
My first few trades I bought WMT for $0.54 and did all the stop loss stuff and watched it go down an could not cope with it dropping to $0.51 so I did what the stop loss said and bailed out only to sit here now and see if I had hung on it shot up to $0.16.  I have learnt a bit more since then and I agree with YT you have to keep at it.
Thanks YT for the great read.


----------



## YOUNG_TRADER (23 February 2007)

Hi guys,

In response to what I now do differently,

I don't treat share (or even property) investment as a passive thing,

For example I have something like 4 broker acc's all under different company names, why you ask? Because I treat investing like a business, I have spreadsheets showing my current positions and update them at leaset every few days,

I am constantly trying to learn and better myself, I have spent probably $90k in HECS uni fees studying Comm/Law, so I see no problem with spending a couple of $k on investment research, books, magazines etc etc

I know this may sound a wee bit corny but with investing you only get out what you put in (copyright Nutrigrain lol) seriously though you put in a few hours a night and it will pay off eventually,

Good luck to us all


----------



## krisbarry (23 February 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> I have spent probably $90k in HECS uni fees studying Comm/Law




Far out that is a damn lot of money.  How much is this going to cost you over a 30 or 40 year working life...about $300K to $400k.

Think about this a a very long-term debt, best you start clearing it ASAP!


----------



## krisbarry (23 February 2007)

...and the older generation wonder why our generation cannot seem to get ahead...I have 1 word HECS!


----------



## Techbuy (23 February 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> For example I have something like 4 broker acc's all under different company names, why you ask? Because I treat investing like a business, I have spreadsheets showing my current positions and update them at leaset every few days,



Hi YT,
You lost me with 4 brokers accounts, I trade through commsec and have opened an investment account with them and now can get trades for under $20.00 depending on the size of course but it's still pretty cheap. the if you use Commsec Protrader its free for I think it's 44 trades in three months (they might have changed it again banks do that). Surely you would be better to put your trades through one broker and get more discounts and benefits?
I keep my spread sheet open and update while trading through the day as it's too easy to miss a profit if you have a number of trades going.
Still love the effort and the determination you have shown and wish you well for the future. Cheers.


----------



## Rob_ee (23 February 2007)

Thanks for the encouragement Young Trader.
Another question if I may.

Since I picked up some GPN @.054 from the massive sell of a few days ago...

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND what is happening with the price relation between it and YRR.

YRR issued at 20c ...2 days later its at 70c a 250% premium.

GPN owns some 68% of YRR so thats what ... approx $ 10Mill worth.

Yet GPN drops from 7.3 to 5.2 on day of YRR listing.

Logic would dictate that GPN should be appreciating in price in sync with YRR.

What am I missing here ?? 

For now I'll keep my GPN stock... only 2.2K worth so no major catastrophy will be done to my bank balance.

 I often read here about cappers, market manipulators, the proffesionals setting up the suckers   

Could they have massively sold off to trigger stop losses and are about to buy back in.

Just curious

Rob


----------



## YOUNG_TRADER (23 February 2007)

Rob ee

Don't know too much about GPN YRR, it sounds like peeps are selling post distribution or something

Tech, I have commsec pro-trade, Hartleys, Patos and Bell Potter,

Trust me, the knowledge and deals that brokers such as Hartleys, Patos and Bell Potter can hook you up with is worth the increased brokerage

Stop the Clock, I disagree, 

HECS is one of the best things ever, do you have any idea how much a Comm Law degree is worth from melb uni in the Investment Banking world (personally I don't think its all that) but my god it opens doors, lots of Macquarie, JB Were, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and UBS are ex Melb Comm/Law boys, anyway the interest rate is very low, like 2-3% I think so who cares, 

Its alot better than the US system where you have to get bank loans and pay upfront, if that were the case here I wouldn't have been able to do my degree as $15k a yr was not feasible for me fresh out of Highschool and my family stopped supporting me after I finished yr 12 (as they rightly should have)


----------



## krisbarry (23 February 2007)

I guess what I am saying is... has your $90k investment earnt you $90k, and then some to cover CPI on the loan.  When do you expect to have it paid off, how much of your income is going towards paying it off?

I look around me and most of my friends that went to uni have much less personal wealth, than those that never stepped foot in the place.

Some say HECS it the worst investment, but of course its better than the U.S.


----------



## Kauri (23 February 2007)

I thought that there was a HECS thread already????


----------



## YOUNG_TRADER (23 February 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> I guess what I am saying is... has your $90k investment earnt you $90k, and then some to cover CPI on the loan.  When do you expect to have it paid off, how much of your income is going towards paying it off?
> 
> I look around me and most of my friends that went to uni have much less personal wealth, than those that never stepped foot in the place.
> 
> Some say HECS it the worst investment, but of course its better than the U.S.




I have at least 4x my HECs Debt in cash/shares and equity so am not fussed at all, I spend alot more money on lifestyle than I do repaying HEC's I spend at least $500 a week on going out, dinners and drinks 

Anyway agree with Kauri we're getting off track,

Thats all for me, just thought I'd share my early day struggles,

I think others who have been through similar should share so as to show those in that patch of beginning to invest/struggling to get returns/making big losses etc can see there is hope


----------



## cuttlefish (23 February 2007)

Rob_ee - If there is high liquidity in a stock its possible to relatively "safely"    trade large amounts (I'm not recommending this be done unless you have either large amounts of money to throw away or a reasonable amount of experience of course).  

For example - if there is depth of several million shares only a few ticks away from the market price on both the buy and sell side, and volumes and liquidity are high on the day then as long as you apply your stops (which should probably include time based stops so you don't get caught out if liquidity dries up) you can attempt to trade relatively large amounts of stock for small profits during the day. (sitting in the queue is the safest way to do this and if you keep an eye on depth often you can exit with only brokerage loss if it goes against you) or at worst one or two ticks on the trade as long as you apply your stops and nothing goes wrong (see below).


I prefer to only attempt this with stocks that still match my fundamental criteria so if left holding the baby for some reason (e.g. platform failure,unexpected manual intervention, preopen, trading halt, manipulation/trader traps etc.) I know I'm unlikely to lose the lot.  This type of trading is not my style but have tried it a few times lately in specific situations where the fundamentals and liquidity criteria align (e.g.just after the recent BDG slump).  

Its of course important to have a trading platform that provides straight through processing, live trade and depth data etc., live intraday charting etc. and to know what the rules are for manual intervention from your particular broker as well. (e.g. comsec seems to go to manual after you've done more than four trades in a stock in a day), and also to not go away from the screen whilst in a trade (unless you trust your conditional trading rules).


----------



## cuttlefish (23 February 2007)

One more caveat I should add to the above comment is that unless you are very comfortable and have proven to yourself your ability to take your stops in an automatic and unemotional fashion you should not even consider attempting the above.


----------



## Techbuy (23 February 2007)

You know when you are just puny and insignificant when you have done all your research and charting and checking on a share before you jump onboard and you have a bucket load of this share then the directors a release a downgrade notice and the price drops through the floor taking all your cash with it....

And nobody notices except you and your bank account!!!! 
And maybe the wife if you are game to tell her....  LOL....


----------



## JimBob (23 February 2007)

GPN's price crashed due to the market expecting YRR to open at 80 cents.  There was a big buildup in price and volume the day before the float and until the minute it floated.  Once it opened at a lower price, everyone bailed and the price went into free fall.  I was in on it too, but i was lucky as I was in since the price was 2.2cents a month ago.  

Its not fun watching the price drop so fast, but it could have easily gone the other way and the price soared to 9 cents if YRR opened at a higher price.  Ill have my finger on the sell button faster next time.


----------



## krisbarry (23 February 2007)

I am having a hard time dealing with my small parcel of shares that I bought in FMG, back in AUG 04. (I sold them 2 weeks later with a $1,000) loss

Bought $9,500 worth at 64 cents...I would now be worth about $250,000

It hurts everyday, just like a failed relationship or death does?

Ohhh I need to speak to a psych about this


----------



## Stimpy (23 February 2007)

Where does one draw the line between the patience needed to ride out short term volatility and the wishful thinking needed to wait for the stock you excitedly bought at a record high to reach a new record high?

If I knew the answer, I'd tell you (and be a best-selling author)


----------



## Kauri (23 February 2007)

My first trade as a scalper/daytrader (*I thought I was*) ... AMS later renamed FMG...


----------



## theasxgorilla (23 February 2007)

Stimpy said:
			
		

> Where does one draw the line between the patience needed to ride out short term volatility and the wishful thinking needed to wait for the stock you excitedly bought at a record high to reach a new record high?
> 
> If I knew the answer, I'd tell you (and be a best-selling author)




It's drawn when you reach the point where buying stocks is no longer "exciting" and you just do it, as a part of your day.


----------



## IGO4IT (23 February 2007)

I guess the same old story of if you play with fire.....you should expect to get burnt.

First, this is a tricky game we all are playing, even that we think we sometimes are invincible & know it all but no one can still say that they don't lose.

I realised after long time trading that best technique is to cut losses "sharply & immediately" while its on the way to get ugly.

I'd rather at any point lose couple of hundreds on fees plus few hundreds on loss rather than see my shares drop down thousands in hours, you may call me paranoid but I'd rather be proven wrong & buy my shares again but then I'll make sure this is not a dive.

I was in the big decline in AEX few months ago & also in GPN at time of collapse, yes I lost money but I was out immediately when it started to look ugly.

As for who are those buying in the way down, these are the ones who try to catch a falling knife, call them the circus pros or magicians, they're willing to take risks by accumulating in the way down hoping for a few points reversal which we all must admit usually happens, nothing falls down in a striaght line.

Also, there are plenty out there which were stuck on the highs with massive quantities & thier exit plan was destroyed by the fast decline, they try to do what we call prevent the "free fall" of the stock, GPN could've gone worse if it wasn't for plenty who supported & kept buying on early to mid 5c, so those are the buyers, most support their high buys or/& lower their avg.

Don't think they'll lose   Just wait & see, these guys have full pockets, no worries about money or time, they won't fight the war when a full army of sellers are fighting them, they'll wait on a cool calm no volume day & easily push their way up point by point, until at some point you & me may get in again & help push it higher, if they succeed then they make some money as they were the only ones buying on lows, if they fail they get out even or with little loss. Because wins in that type of trading requires patience, guts & capital so not many do it & hardly it fails as buyers get to buy their way higher while everyone else is waiting to be tricked again. so even if the stock itself is not worth more, they keep buying & make it more expensive so they could sell what they have from the highs & the lows with little profit - if they couldn't go for long- or with a lot of profit if somehow many joined them specially day traders.

cheers,


----------



## BSD (23 February 2007)

I disagree with a lot of the 'trading' techniques boosted and implemented on this site. When this market turns to bear phase - many will be better served 'trading' horse racing and football on betting exchanges.  

But I would like to add; that the moment you feel the opposite of 'insignificant' in any market is the moment you have a parcel that is 'illiquid'. 

Whales can feel comfortable swinging huge lines in quality stocks like BHP - but can quickly have their bums handed to them on a plate when they have a position equivalent to 4 days volume in something getting belted. 

Dont worry too much about 'insignificance' 

By the same token, never 'buy' what you cant settle


----------



## constable (23 February 2007)

Stimpy said:
			
		

> Where does one draw the line between the patience needed to ride out short term volatility and the wishful thinking needed to wait for the stock you excitedly bought at a record high to reach a new record high?
> 
> If I knew the answer, I'd tell you (and be a best-selling author)



Just quietly it has something to do with fixed fractional positioning and activating stop losses!


----------



## BSD (23 February 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> Just quietly it has something to do with fixed fractional positioning and activating stop losses!





Alternatively, it has something to do with buying assets that have an actual value based on current and future cashflows. 

Which has nothing to do with the potential for a bigger idiot coming along to buy the asset on a hype driven whim. 

Sentiment is fleeting - value is real.


----------



## constable (23 February 2007)

BSD said:
			
		

> Alternatively, it has something to do with buying assets that have an actual value based on current and future cashflows.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with the potential for a bigger idiot coming along to buy the asset on a hype driven whim.
> 
> Sentiment is fleeting - value is real.



Hmmm...... smells like hlx


----------



## noirua (23 February 2007)

"We are but grains of sand on the beach", some may be bigger and tougher grains of sand, but, " when the storm blows, they are gone as quickly as the rest".


----------



## the barry (23 February 2007)

The one and only rule you need to follow,

"sell on rumour, buy on fact."

You follow that rule and it will save you a lot of money in the long run.


----------



## G-Zilla (24 February 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> In response to what I now do differently,
> 
> ...




On this topic, does anyone have any information about setting this kind of thing up. I would like to set up a trading business but have no idea how to go about it. I suppose its a thing you would need to speak to an accountant for.


----------



## krisbarry (24 February 2007)

the barry said:
			
		

> The one and only rule you need to follow,
> 
> "sell on rumour, buy on fact."
> 
> You follow that rule and it will save you a lot of money in the long run.




I always thought is was the opposite:

Buy on a rumour....sell on a fact.  

I guess it only works when the rumour is a good one and turns out to be correct and is in the best interest of shareholders.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (24 February 2007)

BSD said:
			
		

> I disagree with a lot of the 'trading' techniques boosted and implemented on this site. When this market turns to bear phase - many will be better served 'trading' horse racing and football on betting exchanges.




Remember BSD, bears and bulls make money; pigs don't goes the cliche.

There is one fundamantal difference between horse racing gambling and stock market gambling: the latter allows you to get some of your money back; though I don't condone the lazy plunger mentality that you may be referring to.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (24 February 2007)

BSD


> Alternatively, it has something to do with buying assets that have an actual value based on current and future cashflows.




Value is a figment of the imagination until realised in hindsight. 



> Which has nothing to do with the potential for a bigger idiot coming along to buy the asset on a hype driven whim.




Yes I agree in principle, but what about value at those prices the bigger idiots are buying at?



> Sentiment is fleeting - value is real.




Sentiment is real, but just like value, or one's perception of, is ever changing.

Uni books are out of date.


----------



## Seneca60BC (26 February 2007)

It's Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> BSD
> Uni books are out of date.




But knowledge lasts forever.


----------



## Bobby (26 February 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> My first trade as a scalper/daytrader




Love your work K.
Never leave ASF, I do enjoy the feed   

Thanks Bob.


----------



## Bobby (27 February 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Love your work K.
> Never leave ASF, I do enjoy the feed
> 
> Thanks Bob.




Hope he did'nt miss this.

Your posts are  entertaining ~  I applaud verbal swagger.


Have fun..


----------



## wayneL (27 February 2007)

BSD said:
			
		

> Dont worry too much about 'insignificance'



Insignificance rules... and elephants can't dance


----------



## wayneL (27 February 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> verbal swagger.



Hahaha! I like that... nice turn of phrase!


----------



## Rob_ee (28 February 2007)

Well you need a little luck sometimes and it apparently smiled on me.

I was so bemused by how the big boys play the game ... a Million shares here... A Million there.. I felt puny and insignificant holding only 41k so I got out of GPN a few days ago.

That was my only open trade at the time.

Since I only consider buying on new or recent highs I guess Metastock explorations won't be finding any new candidates for a while.

So I'll just sit and learn for a few days/weeks.

I am guessing today will be an education for me.

Rob


----------



## Rob_ee (28 February 2007)

To bad I don't subscribe to the TOP THEM UP WHILE FALLING mentality

I coukd have bought back in at 4.1c this morning.... quite a variation on my 5.8c exit a few days ago

Rob


----------



## Kauri (28 February 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hope he did'nt miss this.
> 
> Your posts are entertaining ~ I applaud verbal swagger.
> 
> ...




   Bobby..
             If verbal swagger is to your taste
       Try the thread... Charting the Crash
                But be sure to take your napkin with you ~ Trust you won't miss this
           Enjoy


----------

