# Turning 5,000 dollars into 50,000 dollars



## insider (6 November 2006)

I want to set a chalenge for myself and transform 5,000 dollars into 50,000 dollars. I've been in the share market almost a year now and have treated it more as a learning experience than a chance to make money... now with my recent success with DYL I transformed 5000 into 9200. I've decided to seperate 200 dollars as a buffer for possible losses. Now I have invested 9000 into MTN. I now have 11 months left on the calender... Can I do it?

What does this prove... Anyone can do it!

PLease feel free to offer tips, techniques or suggestions...


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## sleeper88 (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*

all i can say is good luck      pick some crazy stock like CDU, DYL, TRO etc and u'll get there in no time


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## insider (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*

Oh yeah 5,000 dollars is what I needed to open a CDIA account... What's a good Bank account for trades above 10,000 dollars


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## MalteseBull (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*

can't go wrong with buying DYL again mate


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## swingstar (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



			
				insider said:
			
		

> I now have 11 months left on the calender... Can I do it?




1000% in 11 months? Very unlikely, especially without leverage. If you do, it'll most certainly be luck.


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## Stinger (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*

You should post every month or so telling your progress. Many times when someone makes a statement like this you never hear from them again, basically because the odds of it happening are slim. 

As with the stock market and gambling, you only ever hear how much everyone wins.


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## MichaelD (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



			
				insider said:
			
		

> Can I do it?



Your chances of doing this are essentially zero. It's probably pointless telling you why since you won't believe the naysayers.


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## bowser (6 November 2006)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*

Good luck, wont be easy


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## insider (6 November 2006)

It's better to shoot for the stars and land in the mud then just end up in the mud...
I do understand the odds are against me but it would be interesting to see how it goes, wouldn't you agree?


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## Porper (6 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> It's better to shoot for the stars and land in the mud then just end up in the mud...
> I do understand the odds are against me but it would be interesting to see how it goes, wouldn't you agree?




If you do it, your gamble has paid off with highly speculative stocks.

However you will carry on "gambling" until you lose everything.This method is doomed to failure in the long run.


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## nioka (6 November 2006)

Once a week or so there is someone buys a lotto ticket and gets a better result than that. Mostly everyone else that buys a ticket does their cash in cold. Your chances are a little better but not much. Slow and steady wins the race remember.Best of luck. I,too, would like you to let us know the result. (Maybe there is a horse tomorrow that can do that in a day)


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## pacer (6 November 2006)

Keep buying Zfx and kzl!!!!.....lol


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## stock_man (6 November 2006)

I say try to no let peoples opinions about whether you can or not cloud your mind. Its only when we open up to unimaginable concepts that we can conquor. Thomas Edison has 1097 patents in his name - but he finally got there. Colonel Sanders had 700 odd nock backs from people - but his belief that it would work pushed him through.

I would rename your thread to "watch me turn 5,000 into 50,000".


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## YELNATS (6 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> I want to set a chalenge for myself and transform 5,000 dollars into 50,000 dollars. I've been in the share market almost a year now and have treated it more as a learning experience than a chance to make money... now with my recent success with DYL I transformed 5000 into 9200. I've decided to seperate 200 dollars as a buffer for possible losses. Now I have invested 9000 into MTN. I now have 11 months left on the calender... Can I do it?
> 
> What does this prove... Anyone can do it!
> 
> PLease feel free to offer tips, techniques or suggestions...




Insider, I wish you luck, however $200 isn't much of a buffer in case of any reversals, only 2% of your capital. Also you are not spreading your risks by investing in only one stock, regardless of MTN's good prospects. It makes it look like you have only one roll of the dice, when in fact you should have many opportunities. regards YN.


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## professor_frink (6 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> I want to set a chalenge for myself and transform 5,000 dollars into 50,000 dollars. I've been in the share market almost a year now and have treated it more as a learning experience than a chance to make money... now with my recent success with DYL I transformed 5000 into 9200. I've decided to seperate 200 dollars as a buffer for possible losses. Now I have invested 9000 into MTN. I now have 11 months left on the calender... Can I do it?
> 
> What does this prove... Anyone can do it!
> 
> PLease feel free to offer tips, techniques or suggestions...



Here's a suggestion. Give me all your money. I'll go and blow it on concaine and prostitutes. It shouldn't matter to you, as your going to lose it all anyway. At least this way, you'll know for sure that your money has made someone happy


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## mildew79 (6 November 2006)

what are you like at trading options insider???

1000 percent is a massive ask without leverage. Do you wish to keep it safe as well?? this shall make it a near impossible task if so.

If you want a punt however, i recommend a way out of the money ZFX call option. ZFX commodity prices are unhedged and the stock pretty much follows the price of zinc (need i say more). if zinc goes up another dollar in that time which it could well do, you will go close to your target.

good luck!!


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## insider (6 November 2006)

Understood Yelnats thanks for the opinion... I absolutely agree with you however that it is a little to soon to diversify:

1. Diversifying means to incure further brokerage fees
2. Not enough money in my opinion to spread (20,000 would be a good amount)

However I do a different type of diversification where I research a list of companies and then string them together in what seems to be the correct order of gains. Almost like playing the price is right! The only reason I have given myself 200 dollars only for leverage is because I feel confident in my latest investment (MTN) and that they have risen since purchase. That now means my leverage is now 700$ or 7 %.

I strung DYL then MTN then EXT then UXA (maybe)... judging by today I should've strung EXT before MTN... Or maybe I should have re bought into DYL at 23.5cents instead of trying and missing out at 23cents.

By the way I do withdraw from this account but rarely so some money might be taken away...

Later I might look into margin lending

I really appreciate CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM thanks again


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## insider (6 November 2006)

I've been watching ZFX for about 6months when they were something along the lines of $7.50... I would hold off them for now just cos I think it's about time for people to cash them in... Will maybe getsome later


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## TraderPro (7 November 2006)

Wow you're trying to make ten times your money... is there a time limit to this challenge?

You say you've been in the market for a year now - how does your track record look like?

You may have just got it lucky with DYL... but not all stocks go the way you plan...

Good luck - some people may say you have zero chance - but there is a slim chance of you succeeding but the odds are very much against you - - especially with such a small buffer


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## insider (7 November 2006)

TraderPro said:
			
		

> Wow you're trying to make ten times your money... is there a time limit to this challenge?
> 
> You say you've been in the market for a year now - how does your track record look like?
> 
> ...




The buffer will increase as time goes on but the aim really is to use the same money over and over... I do feel confident that it can be achieved because since starting I had the opportunity to make much more then 50,000... I would pick winner stocks but the biggest problem with me back then was my lack of experience which resulted in hesitation and impatience, which turned into huge losses... I'm not saying that the opprtunities will be the same again because luck does play into it but it would be interesting to see at least how much can be made... The way I see it is i'll do the opposite of what I did back then. lol

By the way to keep it fair i'll use only share market money no outside cash with exception of margin lending...

Remember it's just for fun and it's also a good way to keep a log...


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## professor_frink (7 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> The way I see it is i'll do the opposite of what I did back then. lol






			
				George Costanza said:
			
		

> A job with the New York Yankees. This has been the dream of my life, ever since I was a child. And it's all happening because I'm completely ignoring every urge towards common sense and good judgment I ever had. This is no longer some crazy notion, Elaine, Jerry, this is my religion




From the episode "the opposite" where George does the complete opposite of what he usually does.

If it worked for him, it could work for you too


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## Out Too Soon (9 November 2006)

It's theoretically possible if your an experienced trader.
If you avg a profit of 22% per month that you reinvest then after 12 months you should have $54,361. Of cause you should make 44% some months to make up for the months you break even.
So ignore the knockers & keep us posted.


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## arlee123 (9 November 2006)

So you pretty much just invest base on luck ?? what makes you feel so confident about MTN ??? i mean...what makes you pick DYL at first place?? pure luck right ??? I think it is possible for you to turn 5K to 50K but ....very unlikely....however, all the best...keep us informed on ur progress......

I think over the long term, diversify.......Brokerage fee only takes up a little of your investement...so yeah...cheers


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## barney (9 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> The buffer will increase as time goes on but the aim really is to use the same money over and over... I do feel confident that it can be achieved because since starting I had the opportunity to make much more then 50,000... I would pick winner stocks but the biggest problem with me back then was my lack of experience which resulted in hesitation and impatience, which turned into huge losses... I'm not saying that the opprtunities will be the same again because luck does play into it but it would be interesting to see at least how much can be made... The way I see it is i'll do the opposite of what I did back then. lol
> 
> By the way to keep it fair i'll use only share market money no outside cash with exception of margin lending...
> 
> Remember it's just for fun and it's also a good way to keep a log...




Hi Insider, I appreciate where you are coming from here, but can I put my slant on this scenario.  I was a bit like you in a sense; I had done OK with my early selections........ I got a bit over confident and chased CDU at the height of the "easy money" .......... My advice ........  Watch out for the trading halt that  delivers "BAD NEWS" ............. If you are going to play this game, you must have guaranteed stop losses in place, just in case the worst case scenario hits, and the SP dives like a lead balloon, and you lose nearly everything (like me!!) ................ I think your plan may work, but you must have a contingency plan which covers the possible worst case scenario, so you don't get "butchered". Hope that gives some food for thought. Cheers, Barney.


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## constable (9 November 2006)

dear insider best of luck with this,
 personally i'd have no trouble backing if you said you could turn $50000 into $5000 over 12months but hey good to see your having go at something many people think is to "scary". Plus you 've opened your self to criticism takes a bit of courage to do that ,hope you can keep us all updated.
At the end of the 12 months at least you'll have experiance and if you go half alright another 10k in your pocket good luck


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## nioka (9 November 2006)

ADI may just be able to do what you are asking in less than 1 year. Check it out, it has the possibilities. There are a few who hope to become millionaires if it strikes the good oil ??????? It is one of the sites on this forum which is the most used at the moment and one which has some "true believers".


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## insider (9 November 2006)

Thanks alot for your support and criticism guys... It helps more than you all think... Yes I do open my self up to criticism because I think most of yous have some great advice and I do take it... I can tell you that I'm currently holding 9000 shares in MTN... I bought these at $1.005 dollars after selling 33,500 DYL shares at $0.275 that were bought at $0.15. My current holdings value is $11,800 and MTN is probably going to go up more... plus I have $200 dollars reserved for brokerage costs and  leverage (Not much for leverage but I was 99% sure MTN will have paid off) bringing the current portfolio value to $12,000...


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## insider (9 November 2006)

I must agree with you barney... "the pain of losing is greater than the joy of winning". I have made huge losses when I started however being the positive person I naturally am I like to think I spent that money on learning; turning a loss into a gain.... One really cool thing about COMSEC is that you can have sms alerts when trigger prices are set off... this means you are always watching the market where ever you go... just don't forget to charge your phone

Thanks alot Nioka for the Suggestion (ADI) i'll look into them some time...
 All my eggs are with MTN at the moment so it'll be interesting where they will go... They're defying the current Uranium sell off


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## barney (9 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> I must agree with you barney... "the pain of losing is greater than the joy of winning". I have made huge losses when I started however being the positive person I naturally am I like to think I spent that money on learning; turning a loss into a gain.... One really cool thing about COMSEC is that you can have sms alerts when trigger prices are set off... this means you are always watching the market where ever you go... just don't forget to charge your phone
> 
> Thanks alot Nioka for the Suggestion (ADI) i'll look into them some time...
> All my eggs are with MTN at the moment so it'll be interesting where they will go... They're defying the current Uranium sell off




Good luck to you Insider, I hope you do it .......... Just out of curiousity, say for arguments sake that MTN retraced back to $1.06 (or whatever point it became "iffy" to your position), would you still hang on, or would you have bailed out prior? ie What is your stop loss exit point for the trade/how much are you prepared to lose on a losing trade? Cheers, Barney.


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## MichaelD (9 November 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> ie What is your stop loss exit point for the trade/how much are you prepared to lose on a losing trade? Cheers, Barney.



Aha! Barney's thinking like a trader.


A couple of points for Insider to ponder on;

1. Insider, you said "Remember it's just for fun"
I say: You only say that because you believe you can't lose. Yes, it's just for fun...so long as you're winning. When you're losing, you won't find it fun any more.

2. Don't confuse success in an irrationally exuberant Uranium bull market with trading skill. Irrational exuberance only comes along once in a while and doesn't last very long. Trading skill allows you to survive all the time.


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## insider (9 November 2006)

barney said:
			
		

> Good luck to you Insider, I hope you do it .......... Just out of curiousity, say for arguments sake that MTN retraced back to $1.06 (or whatever point it became "iffy" to your position), would you still hang on, or would you have bailed out prior? ie What is your stop loss exit point for the trade/how much are you prepared to lose on a losing trade? Cheers, Barney.




Personally I'd hold for a few reasons... I bought them at 1.005 and remember you only make or lose money when you sell... Another reason is that I'm expecting some drilling results to come out, infact I think they're almost over due... Might be a good follow up to their most recent announcement... fingers crossed. But essentially I trade stocks however I invest time in them and sell them at a price that I'm happy with and that I don't believe is greedy... I'd be more than happy to sell MTN right now but I'm confident in this one... There are just so many good reasons to hold a uranium stock and they're exactly the same as one year ago... One word potential... they have so much potential.

For me stop losses would only come in if the drops were quick and sudden... then I'd watch the buyers and sellers list closely and ask alot of questions like whose selling and why are they selling. etc. For example I bought DYL and sold at 27.5 cents on the open morning trade... I thought to myself there are going to be people that wanted the action from the day before so they will cause the price to fluctuate upwards at opening. I was right and then price closed at 26 cents... but all this after a 25% rise... I was expecting people to cash in and then they did the next day... Guess who the sellers usually are that drive the price to it's lowest before it goes back up a couple days later... The ones that either feel like they're losing their profits or the ones that bought high... I put an order for 23 cents but missed out by 1/2 a cent... then DYL hit 48 cents.... However the theory was all there and I could have made more cash cut the moral to the story is... " always ask questions" because you'll end like the guy who paid 27.5 cents and sold at 23.5 cents.

Not sure if that answered your question but I've been awake now for 41 hours straight... I need sleep


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## insider (9 November 2006)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Aha! Barney's thinking like a trader.
> 
> 
> A couple of points for Insider to ponder on;
> ...





Miguel... You are absolutely right... However I also enjoy anchovies on my pizza while others don't... why because I appreciate the salty flavor that an anchovy has to offer... The chemical highs and the tug of war to control myself in high pressure situations is what makes it fun for me... I do voluntary work so money is hard to come by.... C'mon like you weren't played by a girl that didn't answer your calls only to make want her more...   I think people aren't focusing on the synergy of advice that's happening in this thread


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## MichaelD (10 November 2006)

Insider,

You are making the following fatal trading errors;

1. Buying only one stock at a time.
2. Not using a stop loss.

Good luck with your gambling. I'll leave it at that.


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## Kauri (10 November 2006)

Was anyone here around during the dot.com boom times? Possibly remember the talk in the chat rooms/forums then?.... Deja vu.


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## Out Too Soon (10 November 2006)

Stop Losses, Yeah! I've just started using them & been stopped out of ZFX, KZL, CBH & JML in the last 2 days. Now there all on the rise & more expensive to get back into.   
So what do I do now MichaelD?  
I had intended holding until early next year.


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## ice (10 November 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Was anyone here around during the dot.com boom times? Possibly remember the talk in the chat rooms/forums then?.... Deja vu.




Nothing like as extreme yet. Back then if you said one negative word about the boom every man and his dog jumped down your throat.   

ice


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## MichaelD (10 November 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> Stop Losses, Yeah! I've just started using them & been stopped out of ZFX, KZL, CBH & JML in the last 2 days. Now there all on the rise & more expensive to get back into.
> So what do I do now MichaelD?



You continue along with the masses, losing money because you don't have a backtested positive expectancy trading system which you consistently execute.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (10 November 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> Stop Losses, Yeah! I've just started using them & been stopped out of ZFX, KZL, CBH & JML in the last 2 days. Now there all on the rise & more expensive to get back into.
> So what do I do now MichaelD?
> I had intended holding until early next year.




This stinks of bullmarket hopeful, yet, blameful uncommitted gutter talk.

Michael D answered well.

And it is "they are"


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## Kauri (10 November 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> Stop Losses, Yeah! I've just started using them & been stopped out of ZFX, KZL, CBH & JML in the last 2 days. Now there all on the rise & more expensive to get back into.
> So what do I do now MichaelD?
> I had intended holding until early next year.




      What's the problem, *you* placed your stops where *you* wanted them and they worked?


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## Julia (10 November 2006)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> You continue along with the masses, losing money because you don't have a backtested positive expectancy trading system which you consistently execute.



Hi Michael

It might be helpful, not just for Kauri, but for others of us who have chosen to hold the stocks Kauri mentioned, if you could explain just what you think he/she should have done.

e.g. I hold ZFX and KZL and as long as the medium term outlook for zinc is positive, I'm not going to sell just because the SP drops for a few days.

With thanks

Julia


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## mildew79 (10 November 2006)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Aha! Barney's thinking like a trader.
> 
> 
> A couple of points for Insider to ponder on;
> ...




totally agree. a succesful trader is one who consistently outperforms the market in any conditions! your comments are reming me of someone i know......


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## mildew79 (10 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> Personally I'd hold for a few reasons... I bought them at 1.005 and remember you only make or lose money when you sell... Another reason is that I'm expecting some drilling results to come out, infact I think they're almost over due... Might be a good follow up to their most recent announcement... fingers crossed. But essentially I trade stocks however I invest time in them and sell them at a price that I'm happy with and that I don't believe is greedy... I'd be more than happy to sell MTN right now but I'm confident in this one... There are just so many good reasons to hold a uranium stock and they're exactly the same as one year ago... One word potential... they have so much potential.
> 
> For me stop losses would only come in if the drops were quick and sudden... then I'd watch the buyers and sellers list closely and ask alot of questions like whose selling and why are they selling. etc. For example I bought DYL and sold at 27.5 cents on the open morning trade... I thought to myself there are going to be people that wanted the action from the day before so they will cause the price to fluctuate upwards at opening. I was right and then price closed at 26 cents... but all this after a 25% rise... I was expecting people to cash in and then they did the next day... Guess who the sellers usually are that drive the price to it's lowest before it goes back up a couple days later... The ones that either feel like they're losing their profits or the ones that bought high... I put an order for 23 cents but missed out by 1/2 a cent... then DYL hit 48 cents.... However the theory was all there and I could have made more cash cut the moral to the story is... " always ask questions" because you'll end like the guy who paid 27.5 cents and sold at 23.5 cents.
> 
> Not sure if that answered your question but I've been awake now for 41 hours straight... I need sleep




you say "remember you only make or lose money when you sell". be careful of this approach insider. you shall find yourself holding a stock through the floor. your worth is the value of assets at the time in question!!

best of luck in your quest. if you were ever going to do it this is the market youd want to be in...


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## Kauri (10 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Hi Michael
> 
> It might be helpful, not just for Kauri, but for others of us who have chosen to hold the stocks Kauri mentioned, if you could explain just what you think he/she should have done.
> 
> ...




     Julia 
           I think you meant "Out to Soon"..    Incidentally, I hold KZL and my stop is set, from memory, around the $ 6.80 area.  
          Cheers
                    Kauri


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## mildew79 (10 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Hi Michael
> 
> It might be helpful, not just for Kauri, but for others of us who have chosen to hold the stocks Kauri mentioned, if you could explain just what you think he/she should have done.
> 
> ...




stops are moreso important for speckies in my opinion. companies who's SP is subject to shareholder mentality at the time alone. The stocks you mention have strong profits and a positive outlook for future gains. any short term fall shall very likely be regained in the near future!

the question is: if the stock is breaking an uptrend and looks like going sideways for some time, do you think you can outperform the tax benefits of a long term hold by placing those funds elsewhere in the near term?? alot of experienced traders back themselves to do this, and will buy the stock back as its SP starts to increase again. 

If you feel the answer to this question is "no" for you, and you hold a positive outlook, then forget about the stop.


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## Out Too Soon (10 November 2006)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> You continue along with the masses, losing money because you don't have a backtested positive expectancy trading system which you consistently execute.




That's right Michael, as I said before I'm learning & what better way. Through trial & error I will develop a system that I will then learn to stick to. I did make a profit & now I'm wondering if & when to jump back on.
I'd like to make $200,000 out of -$20,000 in 10 years & I believe I'll do it.


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## MichaelD (10 November 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> It might be helpful, not just for Kauri, but for others of us who have chosen to hold the stocks Kauri mentioned, if you could explain just what you think he/she should have done.
> 
> e.g. I hold ZFX and KZL and as long as the medium term outlook for zinc is positive, I'm not going to sell just because the SP drops for a few days.



Just a couple of disclaimers first for context:

1. I trade 3 letter codes in accordance with my trading plans. I don't need to know anything more about the entity I'm trading to make consistent profits. In fact, knowing more than just the 3 letter code is more often than not harmful psychologically.

2. Currently I have neither ZFX nor KZL in my long or short term portfolios. There's no particular reason for this, just that my funds are fully committed elsewhere.

However, for the sake of the discussion, according to my long term trading plan;

ZFX has given multiple buy signals from mid June. If I had entered on any of these signals, I would still be holding. It came within a whisker of my stop loss on 12-Sep-2006. The last few days of price action would have been well and truly within this stock's normal behaviour and would have been of no concern to me. Chart with stop loss plotted below.

KZL has given multiple buy signals from late May. Again if I had entered I would still be holding and the last few days of price action are nowhere near the stop.


I'd suggest that any long term trading plan which had its stops hit on either of these stocks in the last few days has a stop loss which is far too close.


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## Julia (10 November 2006)

Kauri said:
			
		

> Julia
> I think you meant "Out to Soon"..    Incidentally, I hold KZL and my stop is set, from memory, around the $ 6.80 area.
> Cheers
> Kauri



Hi Kauri,

My apologies.  You are of course right.  I did indeed mean to refer to Out too Soon.

Julia


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## Freeballinginawetsuit (11 November 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> I've been watching ZFX for about 6months when they were something along the lines of $7.50... I would hold off them for now just cos I think it's about time for people to cash them in... Will maybe getsome later





Why did you just watch ZFX back in June?, 

A good suggestion would be to figure out if you have faith in the 'stronger for longer' theory of commodities. Make an educted decision if China and maybe India and a few other countries have some more oomph left in their development or if the booms over after just a few years.

At this point if your answer was yes you should have figured out what commodities are essential to fuel such a boom. Have a look at the inventories of said commodities and determine which could possably run short, simple supply vs demand.

Then identify which companies had the best fundamentals (market cap vs EPS, mine life, quality management etc). Then check the T/A to see how fast they move out of a correction. The 'May' correction would have given you some pointers on this.

If you have confidence in the companies you are trading, the marketplace in which they derive their earnings and you stick to your plan, IMHO youre about as educated as you can be mate.

Get a bit proficient in T/A as it helps to time youre trades, in my opinion its still risky trading on it alone as if a Company has no fundamentals behind it, well youre just basically gambling.

Another tip would be to not get caught up in the hype of a correction, risks etc of so called 'experts' who say commodities are going to collapse etc. Short term their not mate!. These experts called the same last year before the run that ended in May and then just prior to the Nickle and Zinc run we just had. their a bit like the weather man, they offer advice after we already know it a sunny day!.

Trade a plan, make sure its educated, and for a beginer read the forums and if youre into commodities, Rederobs a great poster for commodities he called the last 2 months absolutely perfect.

All the best, with a few smart plays and if youv'e got half a noggin you will  turn 5 grand into 20 without a problem. Just remember ride momentum, don't sell early and have stop losses (but not on youre bottom picks in the good players in Zinc,Nickle and Uranium).

All the above is only my opinion in trading/investing,youre goal of 50 grand is realistic if you reinvest youre profits


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## nizar (11 November 2006)

Freeballinginawetsuit said:
			
		

> All the above is only my opinion in trading/investing,youre goal of 50 grand is realistic if you reinvest youre profits




I beg to differ.
To go from 5grand to 50grand in 1 year (which was wat insider stated in the original post of this thread) is not only unrealistic, its impossible.
The average return in the stockmarket long term is about 12%pa. Now for a beginner (which is what insider said he was) to go 10-fold in a year is an unreasonable expectation.

Pros do not even get these returns. Your average 10-bagger takes about 2 years.

Investing/Trading is a zero sum game. For somebody to be a winner, somebody else must be a loser. People are out there to take your money, and they often have more skill, knowledge, tools and experience than you.

Theres basically 3 types of people in the markets. 
1/institutions
2/professionals
3/amateurs

Who from these 3 is a net loser over the long-term?
I can bet my bottom dollar thats its the third group.

Investing/trading is not easy at all. ANd when you are undercapitalised, inexperienced and up against those more pro than you, plus brokerage, it actually becomes a minus sum game as some people like to say, and that makes it even harder to be a winner.

Good luck though. Dont try to be a millionaire overnight. Just take it easy. The more higher risks you take (without the appropriate risk management) the higher the chance you will become just like the average - and average people lose at this game.


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (11 November 2006)

Insider may be undercapitalised but everyones gotta start somewhere.
He made a  good pick on DYL, probably exited to early but a profits a profit and he doubled his money.

As long as he realises you don't have to always be in the market, waits for the right opportunities and trades a plan, he will do alright.

I'm not into quoting percentages, pro's/amateurs or comparrisons on profits made. The fact of the matter is that a great many brokers/traders are young greenhorns straight out of UNI, no practical business sense and investing other crews cash without any real life business experience in the real world.

I certainly wouldn't be keeping my cash in their hands, we all know how knowledgable a youngun is straight out of home, they know everything!.

What does the best high risk fund return Nizar per annum?, 30 percent odd. Would you be happy with a return like that?.

Insiders already up on that with his DYL, compounding on what hes got he will do fine. 

If he leaves the market now he is better off than the experts would have returned him in a year.

Good on him for setting a goal and working towards it!.

Just noticed the mention of Institutions. Personally I think their the greatest  asset in the market place. If you cant time youre entries/exits to your avantage in regard to what is the slow moving dinasour "Institutions",  you shouldn't be in the market at all!.


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## Out Too Soon (11 November 2006)

nizar said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.
> Investing/Trading is a zero sum game. For somebody to be a winner, somebody else must be a loser. People are out there to take your money, and they often have more skill, knowledge, tools and experience than you.
> 
> Theres basically 3 types of people in the markets.
> ...




So until recently there weren't many so called amateurs yet there still had to be losers for there to be winners! right?


----------



## nizar (11 November 2006)

Out Too Soon said:
			
		

> So until recently there weren't many so called amateurs yet there still had to be losers for there to be winners! right?




there were always amateurs, and always will be. mums and dads are a sub-category. they just buy what they read in the herald sun or what an "analyst" or broker advises them. they are mostly clueless.

"zero sum game" are not my words, but Gordon Gekko's. I just finished watching wall street again, i need some inspiration from the man.

the market will always be the same, essentially transferring money from one person (the losers) to another person (the winners)


----------



## tech/a (11 November 2006)

nizar said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.
> To go from 5grand to 50grand in 1 year (which was wat insider stated in the original post of this thread) is not only unrealistic, its impossible.




I used to think so. But not any more.



> The average return in the stockmarket long term is about 12%pa. Now for a beginner (which is what insider said he was) to go 10-fold in a year is an unreasonable expectation.




Highly unlikely is probably more accurate.



> Pros do not even get these returns. Your average 10-bagger takes about 2 years.




It is possible in less time but unlikely.



> Investing/Trading is a zero sum game. For somebody to be a winner, somebody else must be a loser. People are out there to take your money, and they often have more skill, knowledge, tools and experience than you.
> 
> Theres basically 3 types of people in the markets.
> 1/institutions
> ...




Well thats not true while there is constant NEW money (Superanuation) coming into the market and losses are seen as course of business the balance is not zero.



> Investing/trading is not easy at all. ANd when you are undercapitalised, inexperienced and up against those more pro than you, plus brokerage, it actually becomes a minus sum game as some people like to say, and that makes it even harder to be a winner.




You shouldnt be trading.



> Good luck though. Dont try to be a millionaire overnight. Just take it easy. The more higher risks you take (without the appropriate risk management) the higher the chance you will become just like the average - and average people lose at this game.




If you move with the crowd your one of the crowd.


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (12 November 2006)

nizar said:
			
		

> there were always amateurs, and always will be. mums and dads are a sub-category. they just buy what they read in the herald sun or what an "analyst" or broker advises them. they are mostly clueless.
> 
> "zero sum game" are not my words, but Gordon Gekko's. I just finished watching wall street again, i need some inspiration from the man.
> 
> the market will always be the same, essentially transferring money from one person (the losers) to another person (the winners)




What do you consider when Companies' SP is rising as buyers are prepared to pay more for the shares as sellers are drying up is happening Nizar?. Is that not people making profits.

What about when a Insto liquidates its position in a decent company, what happens then. What about when a Insto values a Company at X and the small holders want Y?.


----------



## Stan 101 (12 November 2006)

alternatively, you could walk into a casino and go red, black, red, red on roulette and make it a cool 60k...only takes 5 minutes and no brokerage or capital gains..


Cheers,


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## legs (12 November 2006)

How about this??

Why dont we all just say good luck and leave all the insults, degrading comments out of it? Yes it is unlikely to be achieved and you may coment on why it is possible or not possible but insulting remarks aren't really called for and put a real "downer" on the whole site.


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## nizar (12 November 2006)

Stan 101 said:
			
		

> alternatively, you could walk into a casino and go red, black, red, red on roulette and make it a cool 60k...only takes 5 minutes and no brokerage or capital gains..
> 
> 
> Cheers,




Good idea champ...


----------



## Bearman52 (12 November 2006)

legs said:
			
		

> How about this??
> 
> Why dont we all just say good luck and leave all the insults, degrading comments out of it? Yes it is unlikely to be achieved and you may coment on why it is possible or not possible but insulting remarks aren't really called for and put a real "downer" on the whole site.



 I agree with you Legs 
And it is possible
Remember that there are daytraders out there (all be it primarily in futures and geared instruments ((and also of course part of the winning 10%))) who regularly multiply their Banks by 10>>20 times per year ,you don't hear much about them but they are there forget the nonsense about 10% or whatever being a good return and don't compare yourself to the big investors//fund managers as an individual "DAYTRADER" you can move in and out of the market a lot easier than someone trading $millions using a programmed approach using ,lets face it!someone elses money.
Realise that an Instrument (not neccasarily a stock) might for example have an average monthly range of ?????say 20 points,pips,tiks or $$$s but in that 20 whatevers there maybe XX times as many pts tics etc over the ups and downs of the daily movements
Capture 40>60% of them and you are on your way.
So remember it can be done it has and is being done ! just find a way that >>>YOU<<< can do it
BM


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## Bearman52 (12 November 2006)

PS Insider $200 is not much of a buffer against anything !!Take it and buy a good bottle of wine ,scotch , brandy??whatever you prefer and celebrate making $4200 then think about how often you could do that if you do the hard yards and get it right
BM


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## nizar (12 November 2006)

Bearman52 said:
			
		

> PS Insider $200 is not much of a buffer against anything !!




Agree.
I dont think ive ever had a loss of this (tiny) maginitude. ANd im a very small player as well.


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## insider (15 December 2006)

Hey just revivng this thread... Yes I am still in the challenge... I've been really busy lately... I just graduated this year from Architecture Technology Volunteering, working 12 hour shifts and going out... Busy man I am...

There are really good points in the thread made by everyone and not one is discounted no matter how harsh some may sound...

I thought I'd update what's going on... I've still got all my eggs in one basket with MTN... I hold 9000 shares in them plus I have a spare 200 bucks for whatever... The portfolio worth, trading at 1.45 plus the 200, is $13250.

There are announcements to come out in January next year so I will look at selling then... My predicted value will be about $2+ a share...

Thinking about the challenge I have realised that the real secret to achieving a 1000 percent gain in one year is not so much how you spend the year trading but how you spend the start of it... The quicker I can make huge profits the easier it becomes it achieve 1000 percent... I hope I make sense...
It's the difference between one car that takes off normally and another that takes off racing... The one racing will get to the speed limit quicker... 

If I can get to 25,000 soon which is a 500% gain of $5,000 all I need to do then is a 100% return on the 25,000 which makes it 50,000.... The value goes up exponentially...

I also tried borrowing money to help out but couldn't get the loan... It would've helped heaps

Yes Luck plays a part in it...


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## lancer (15 December 2006)

Insider,

It is possible, perhaps not in that time frame but maybe not too far beyond. The only reason I say that is because you are in the uranium sector. This will be huge, and hopefully soon. Picking a stock in U that is low priced with good fundamentals just may do it. And I just have to comment on this:



			
				MichaelD said:
			
		

> Insider,
> 
> You are making the following fatal trading errors;
> 
> ...




Michael d obviously forgot about your goal which is to have $50,000 in a year from $5,000. If you picked more than one stock that would decrease your chances more. Its obvious you wont reach your goal by diversifying 10 ways and end up with a 15% return....I am sure you are quite aware there may be better ways of planning your retirement but this sounds like more of a game, so I say good luck! Hopefully you wont think twice about the people who are telling you what you are doing wrong, maybe they are upset you have the means to put all your eggs into one basket.


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## tomcat (15 December 2006)

Insider, I've always only invested money that I can afford to lose. Obviously the aim of the game is to make money and everyone has different opinions on how to do that.

You are a chance at making your goal and it will be more due to luck I imagine than anything else... I just hope it is money you can afford to lose...which I think it is!!

My pick for you has already been touched on..'ADI'...it is a gamble, but I think that is the type of stock you need to make the 50K. Its climbed quickly over the last few days but if the flow testing in late Jan/Feb goes well it will kick bigtime. If not it will dive fast so you may then need something that goes 100fold   ...but hey what I think you are doing is a gamble anyway...good luck!!


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## MichaelD (16 December 2006)

lancer said:
			
		

> Michael d obviously forgot about your goal which is to have $50,000 in a year from $5,000. If you picked more than one stock that would decrease your chances more. Its obvious you wont reach your goal by diversifying 10 ways and end up with a 15% return.



This is just so wrong it's hard to work out how to respond.

I guess the best I can do is to give an example of why 1 position at a time and no stop loss sooner or later will be fatal.

Buy BCL (BetCorp) 16-Mar-2006 @ 5.42

12-Jul-2006 Share price 4.10. Favourable broker research report.
14/15-Aug-2006. Share price 2.35. Brokers report "great value" and "good results".

30-Oct-2006 Last traded price 0.335.


Starting capital $5,000.
Ending capital $309.

Game over.


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## MichaelD (16 December 2006)

Addendum (was able to find one more broker report on BCL):

8-Sep-2006 Share price 2.05 Broker report: Change from BUY recommendation to HOLD recommendation.


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## lancer (16 December 2006)

This may help your stock jump Insider, this is from trade tech and was published on fri:

The quest of buyers to
secure uranium at fixed
prices continues to fuel the
price rise, with any spot
material offered up by sellers
creating a “feeding frenzy.”
As a result, the spot price for
uranium jumped $7.00 this
week to $72.00 per pound
U3O8””the single largest
increase reported since
NUEXCO began publishing
prices in 1968 (see chart).


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## barney (16 December 2006)

lancer said:
			
		

> This may help your stock jump Insider, this is from trade tech and was published on fri:
> 
> The quest of buyers to
> secure uranium at fixed
> ...





Howdy Lancer, Do you have a link to that page/info?? .... The latest spot price I have is $65     Cheers, Barney


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## lancer (16 December 2006)

Hi Barney, No, I dont have a link I mean I could make one but you are supposed to subscribe which is about $700 per year to know the price on fri instead of monday or tues. 

This will be interesting!


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## lancer (16 December 2006)

BTW, $65 is last weeks price this one came out about 2 hours ago, and will be updated everywhere else on mon. or tues. It is from trade tech and is the original source..


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## barney (16 December 2006)

lancer said:
			
		

> Hi Barney, No, I dont have a link I mean I could make one but you are supposed to subscribe which is about $700 per year to know the price on fri instead of monday or tues.
> 
> This will be interesting!




Hi Lancer, Thats fine ... I understand ..... I wish I could afford all the "good oil", but maybe next year (or maybe 2010   ) 

I'm sure everyone appreciates the early info, so keep it coming .... Cheers, Barney.


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## insider (16 December 2006)

lancer said:
			
		

> This may help your stock jump Insider, this is from trade tech and was published on fri:
> 
> The quest of buyers to
> secure uranium at fixed
> ...




Wow I appreciate it Lancer... What's the name of the source I'd like to try it out even if I had to pay?


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## lancer (17 December 2006)

Google "trade tech uranium" its the first one to show up. Its kind of expensive, I am not sure its worth it for a few days earlier, but possibly in a case like this....


Lance


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## larry123 (28 December 2006)

insider said:
			
		

> The buffer will increase as time goes on but the aim really is to use the same money over and over... I do feel confident that it can be achieved because since starting I had the opportunity to make much more then 50,000... I would pick winner stocks but the biggest problem with me back then was my lack of experience which resulted in hesitation and impatience, which turned into huge losses... I'm not saying that the opprtunities will be the same again because luck does play into it but it would be interesting to see at least how much can be made... The way I see it is i'll do the opposite of what I did back then. lol
> 
> By the way to keep it fair i'll use only share market money no outside cash with exception of margin lending...
> 
> Remember it's just for fun and it's also a good way to keep a log...







I think that you will be hard pressed to achieve these returns, But alas give it a go. If your serious about making the 50 grand then average out how much money you need to make each month to achieve your goal. If you find one month that you are not making enough capital growth you may think about moving your money into a different company. Anyways good luck on your quest.


P.S. leverage is always an option.


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## tomcat (28 December 2006)

Hi Insider,

Your prediction for MTN to reach $2+ is close, nicely done, let us know when you decide to sell and what your next punt will be to reach your $50K goal. 

Looks like you are around $17750 all up by my calcs if you still have your 9000 MTN shares? Keep us up to date with how you go.


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## insider (29 December 2006)

I'm still holding and after todays results the 9000 shares are at $16650.00... plus $200 reserve... I'm waiting on some results but i'm missing the UXA (uranium exploration australia) boat which went up 33.33 percent today... That company is a bargain... What makes me hold MTN is that there still hasn't been a day with extremely high volumes which makes me believe that they are still very unknown and they'll be pumping out their results out soon... I'm holding until about the end of January to start of Februrary... Until then I'm still looking for bargain stocks to jump on immediately after sell


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## insider (19 January 2007)

I should update how my progress is going... I'm still holding 9000 shares in MTN plus an extra $200... after todays close at $2.28 the shares are now worth $20,520.00 not including the spare $200... 

Hopefully the recent uptrend is sustained until the next announcement...
I'm having second thoughts about buying UXA as their reputation is beginning to disapoint me... they are predicted to have an announcement due in about 1 to 2 weeks... MTN is proving to be a strong performer.


----------



## Hellyeah (19 January 2007)

nice progress you made insider... if you're still planing on selling mtn by the end of january i would recommend to pick rms(o) and mxr(o)... 
Rms been one of the best performers for me last year with lots of upside... will go to 1$ this year imho... they got awesome tenements, gettin lotsa cash in their kitty with their open pit gold production on wattle dam and they have a big nickel ressource at hilditch which will be a mayor sp driver in the close future...

mxr also supposed to see some decent results regarding their gold exploration and uranium exploration  in the close future.... it's also trading under NTA so it's really cheap right now... i would get set in the oppies as they provide a pretty good leverage.... 

anyway, good luck on your further progression and let me know if you picked any of those...cheers


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## insider (19 January 2007)

Hellyeah said:
			
		

> nice progress you made insider... if you're still planing on selling mtn by the end of january i would recommend to pick rms(o) and mxr(o)...
> Rms been one of the best performers for me last year with lots of upside... will go to 1$ this year imho... they got awesome tenements, gettin lotsa cash in their kitty with their open pit gold production on wattle dam and they have a big nickel ressource at hilditch which will be a mayor sp driver in the close future...
> 
> mxr also supposed to see some decent results regarding their gold exploration and uranium exploration  in the close future.... it's also trading under NTA so it's really cheap right now... i would get set in the oppies as they provide a pretty good leverage....
> ...




Thanks for the support... I'll have to reasearch those stocks on the weekend sometime... I'm quite covinced that holding mtn for at least another month will be rewarding.. I expect MTN to pump out more drilling results on top of that, it is rumoured that they will be holding a uranium conference in Adelaide in March. They will be getting some nice publicity which is something they don't spend their money on...

I always keep a watchful eye on MTN and others


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## The Mint Man (2 February 2007)

If my calculation is correct then your up to $28800 (or $29000 if you include your $200).
Not bad!
and youve still got how many months to go? ..... 7 or 8 months?  
keep going like this and it would seem you will far exceed $50000.

By the way people, this months Money magazine reminded me of this thread, Front page 'Turn $5000 into $50000'........ insider, are you the person writing this article?   or are you just an insider  

cheers


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## barney (2 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> Thanks for the support... I'll have to reasearch those stocks on the weekend sometime... I'm quite covinced that holding mtn for at least another month will be rewarding.. I expect MTN to pump out more drilling results on top of that, it is rumoured that they will be holding a uranium conference in Adelaide in March. They will be getting some nice publicity which is something they don't spend their money on...
> 
> I always keep a watchful eye on MTN and others






Going well Insider, I am both impressed and envious   

Keep it going M8 ....  PS What was the deciding factor on your two stock choices so far?  Obviously uranium, but did ASF have any influence on your choices?  If so, there could be an advertising "story" in the making here when you hit your target !!  (Take note Joe ... this could be a valuable result all round) 

My only suggestion would be when you get closer to your target you might consider "splitting" your stock choices in half or thirds just in case the worst case scenario happened and the company of your choice "fell over"   ........... Diversification at some point may prove advantageous (even though it might slow the process down a little ...... just a thought )  All the best,  Barney.


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## Ken (2 February 2007)

and then the tax man comes!


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## mb1 (2 February 2007)

damn if you were to cash out around now, 30000 x 0.3 = 9000 dollars tax???

Insider why not consider holding it for a year? 

They seem like they have the fundamentals to increase steadliy


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## insider (2 February 2007)

Hey guys. That's funny because I got this months issue of Money... nah i'm not the author... yeah I made that thread called BEATING THE TAXMAN so I didn't have to pay as much tax... I think i'm gonna hold MTN for a year from the settlement date which was around the 20th of November and get Capital Gains Tax... I'm really confident about MTN, their results are excellent and i'm pretty sure they'll hit similar market capitalistion to dyl and ags in the near future which is about 500 million dollars.

For MTN to hit that it'll be close to 10 bucks...

9000shares X $3.25 + $200 = $29,250 + $200 = 

$29,450


----------



## insider (2 February 2007)

barney said:
			
		

> Going well Insider, I am both impressed and envious
> 
> Keep it going M8 ....  PS What was the deciding factor on your two stock choices so far?  Obviously uranium, but did ASF have any influence on your choices?  If so, there could be an advertising "story" in the making here when you hit your target !!  (Take note Joe ... this could be a valuable result all round)
> 
> My only suggestion would be when you get closer to your target you might consider "splitting" your stock choices in half or thirds just in case the worst case scenario happened and the company of your choice "fell over"   ........... Diversification at some point may prove advantageous (even though it might slow the process down a little ...... just a thought )  All the best,  Barney.




I think anyone would be lying if they said that this forum didn't influence their decisions... I thank Joe Blow for investing his time into this forum so that people with like minded thinking can congrigate quickly and easily and share VALUABLE opinions... I guess any success a member has is a testament to ASF

I can say that the two deciding yet common factors that came when I chose DYL and MTN were:

Firstly Location, and Second Market Capitalistion

When I invested in DYL they were cheap at 15cents and they had a lot of anticipation in NT... My only problem was that I sold too early which was about 27.5 cents... I was too eager to cash in and I missed out at 45 cents or so...

MTN has a similar story to be told,but their market capital was much less than DYL's and they have their tenements are in SA which I regard as the best state for Uranium mining.

For those who like charting If you grab any three companies charts and compared them they all go up at ROUGHLY the same time... interesting they nearly have the same peaks and troughs

I've watched companies like SMM, AGS, DYL all bolt off and now I think it's MTN's turn... I've seen people brag that MTN has the 4th largest deposit in Australia. I certainly hope so


----------



## moses (3 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> $29,450




Hmm...I just went back and read through this entire thread. It makes fascinating reading. 

Some quotes...

"Your chances of doing this are essentially zero. It's probably pointless telling you why since you won't believe the naysayers"

"Give me all your money. I'll go and blow it on concaine and prostitutes. It shouldn't matter to you, as your going to lose it all anyway"

"You are making the following fatal trading errors;
1. Buying only one stock at a time.
2. Not using a stop loss."

"To go from 5grand to 50grand in 1 year (which was wat insider stated in the original post of this thread) is not only unrealistic, its impossible."

etc.

Yet all he has done since starting the thread (at $9k) is hold onto one single stock. I'm looking forward to Insider announcing a result of $5K to $100K in a year. But I think he has already made his point.


----------



## professor_frink (3 February 2007)

> But I think he has already made his point.




And what point would that be moses? I didn't think this thread really had a serious point, it was more of an announcement by an amateur investor that he was moving over to the gambling side of things.

The only point I took out of this thread was that the silly part of this bullmarket was well and truly in full swing.



			
				insider said:
			
		

> However I do a different type of diversification where I research a list of companies and then string them together in what seems to be the correct order of gains. Almost like playing the price is right!



  :dunno: 

Maybe when insider gets to his target he can write a book- "punting on small caps - insider's guide to diversification in a bullmarket"


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> Hmm...I just went back and read through this entire thread. It makes fascinating reading.
> 
> Some quotes...
> 
> ...





To go from $5k to $50k in a year is impossible????

Well thanks to the following purchases
CDU at 3.50 +110%
CQTO at 6.4c +300%
CQT at 20c +110%%
THX at 18c + 150%
THXO at 6.1c + 350%
ERNO at .17c + 180%
GSEO at 1.1c and 2.7c +1000% on most of it
BLTO at 2.1c +300%
JMSO at 2c +1000%

Plus many smaller profits...smaller means below 100%  since last July when I started speculating.....with starting float of AU$10k I have made a multiple of 12 in 8 months.

Perhaps you means turning $5k into $50k is impossible for "me"

Of course it is possible - and at the beginning I made the "classic mistake" of only investing in one stock as well

Currently hold decent positions in HLXO and OVR (up 70% since I bought on 2 days ago)

EB


----------



## Kauri (3 February 2007)

exberliner1 said:
			
		

> To go from $5k to $50k in a year is impossible????
> 
> Well thanks to the following purchases
> CDU at 3.50 +110%
> ...




    I bet you're not looking forward to your first loss..


----------



## tech/a (3 February 2007)

hahaha.

Thinking exactly the same thing.

Yeh I pulled About the same on my account.
Bet your impressed.


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

I have made lots of losses but I usually sell if I gt a loss early on....even if I had to buy back higher...

Only one complete wipeout though on JPRO

I have put about 2,500 posts on HC under this nic since last July....so it's all there for the reading...

I am only trying to point out that $5k to $50k is not impossible.....if I had bought $5k of JMSO (and not the $3k worth I bought at 2c) then I would have made $50k in 4 days last december with just one trade....

Nothing is impossible

EB


----------



## Kauri (3 February 2007)

tech/a said:
			
		

> hahaha.
> 
> Thinking exactly the same thing.
> 
> ...




   I am, because I saw you *calling it live* on the forum.... trading that is.    The blank right hand side of the screen sorts out the traders from the pretenders..


----------



## tech/a (3 February 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> I am, because I saw you *calling it live* on the forum.... trading that is.    The blank right hand side of the screen sorts out the traders from the pretenders..




Well actually no I didnt---not the same ratio!

I was joshing. Waiting to see if Yogi came along to tell me I have a big ego and Excal is a saint!

Cant see the Company options listed on my database but will check on my live feed at work.
Have you liquidated your profit Excal?
Just wondered why your trading $3K parcels when youve obviously got enough capital to be trading 5x that?

By the way Hotcopper's not known for credible rampers---errr--posters.


----------



## Kauri (3 February 2007)

tech/a said:
			
		

> Well actually no I didnt---not the same ratio!
> 
> 
> .




   Oh well.  I am obviously on the right side of the wall!!!


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

Tech/a I bought $3k of JMSO at 2c because that was all that was available at that price....upside looked good but there was only 7 weeks to maturity of the oppies....in other words if I had bought more at 2.5c and 3c as well and before any ann. I risked being locked in an out of the money oppie as maturity approached...this would mean having to buy 150k JMS at 20c to exercise the oppies.

So although I only bought $3k worth to me it was more like $33k worth as given the short maturity date I had to factor in the possibility that I would have to exercise the oppies in mid January.

I sold at 16c.....bought back at 13c then sold out at 20 and 20.5c....

But that's enough here.....I was just annoyed with an earlier poster claiming that $5k to $50k short term is impossible

I also have an acquaintance who bought CQTO at 0.007c and sold at 15.5c ....that's 20 times profit in a few months......good research and the huge gains are there.

As I said earlier I do not usually entertain losses....if a holding starts going down I sell.....even if I have to buy it back higher later so my usual losses are are tiny.....and when the profits are there I let it run and often buy more.

My main plan is to get a free held holding and it is from the 9 free of charge holdings I currently have that my 12 times gain has come....short term spikes are of little consequence if the holding sits in the portfolio at no cost.

Hopefully OVR will continue going up next week (see my posts on the OVR thread) at around 90c - $1 I will sell some go free held and add it to mylong term portfolio at no cost.

A bizarre strategy I know but it has worked for me so far.

EB


----------



## tech/a (3 February 2007)

exberliner1 said:
			
		

> My main plan is to get a free held holding and it is from the 9 free of charge holdings




Not so bizarre,infact if your doing what your doing damned right *BRILLIANT.*

I heard of the strategy many years ago and your the first I know applying it.

In fact with outliers (if you can get on them) it certainly has the potential for massive profit as initially you take a risk (albeit small) then distinguish the risk and follow the age old---- *let your profits run.*

Bugga me that would just work!
Looking back on pretty well all my shorter term discretionary trades I would be multiple times better off holding the profit with risk only on open profits.
Ever thought of a trailing stop on profits?

Thanks

Dont tell anyone!


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

Trailing stops and conditional orders do not interest me.....I usually have only one or two "hot stocks" on the go at any one time.....so I can look after them my self...

The free held stuff doesn't really matter as I can hold long term...

So in effect I run 2 portfolios......one longer term with only free held in it and a smaller - usually one or two stocks only- where I think I will get the 100% or so profit short term so I can sell half and get my money back and dump the balance into my free of charge long term portfolio.

My current 2 "hot stocks" are OVR and HLXO - again if necessary I will convert the oppies in HLXO if I have to in March although I think it unlikely I will need to as the profit will be there for the taking.

The stock though I am most excited about right now is OVR....

EB


----------



## tech/a (3 February 2007)

Would have been excited at 30 mins in had I bought them----but now.

I'm personally not excited.
I can understand yours if you got on early enough.


----------



## insider (3 February 2007)

I do my research and alot of it, nearly every company I've picked except for EXT and TAM(which was suggested to me) in the past year have gone up at least 500%... I never get into anything I don't understand and my choices ranged from Solar Cells to Biotechs to Resources. If I weren't so easily influenced by people's beliefs when I started in the stock exchange I would've now turned $5,000 into $250,000 since this time last year. No kidding. That is why I trade the way I do. It takes full advatage of a Bullmarket... 

And for the last time it is not Gambling... I chringe every time I hear that phrase. That's what losers say. I'll tell you what gambling really is... It is an activity you engage where the odds of you winning are slimmer than that of losing. Gambling is designed for you to lose, so if the odds of you losing are 50% or more that is gambling... Gambling also means you lose and take nothing. That's not reality here. If I sold during a bear market I still take something... 

What I'm doing is no different to what Warren Buffet did when he made it... and he is only the second richest guy in the world.

Am I learning? yes... Do I have alot to learn? yes... I see alot of negative crticism coming from people that haven't even contributed a single constructive comment... Here's some constructive crticism for you, Get a life, you know who you are...


----------



## insider (3 February 2007)

exberliner1 said:
			
		

> Trailing stops and conditional orders do not interest me.....I usually have only one or two "hot stocks" on the go at any one time.....so I can look after them my self...
> 
> The free held stuff doesn't really matter as I can hold long term...
> 
> ...





That's cool dude, I really like your strategy, it make sense. The only thing I don't understand is how the long term portfolio thing is free of charge. How does that work?


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

Insider what I mean is that my long term portfolio only consists of free carried positions....

For example I bought 400k CVIO at an average of 1.8c last year....sold 200k at 4c.....giving me my money back and a small cash profit plus 200k CVIO which are now free....that then went into my long term portfolio....admittedly I sold the remaining 200k CVIO at 7.5c.....

Same with ERNO (when they were LOUO) bought 150k at .16.5c average sold 90k at about 35c leaving me with 60k ERNO that didn't cost anything plus my money back and a small cash profit

Did the same with many others as well.

So I now have a portfolio of stocks that didn't cost me anything which means I can ride the short term swings without panicing....ok I will sell sometimes such as with CVIO but I can now buy these back for about 4c if I feel so inclined.

My plan is just to keep expanding the number of stocks in my portfolio but only collecting free carried holdings.

I use the cash trading float to buy other stocks...usually only 1 or 2 at a time and then when I have a profit get my money back and dump the residue into my free carried portfolio.

Hope that makes sense...

EB


----------



## insider (3 February 2007)

It does make sense... I appreciate it  

I like the strategy even more now


----------



## champ2003 (3 February 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> Hmm...I just went back and read through this entire thread. It makes fascinating reading.
> 
> Some quotes...
> 
> ...




Hi Moses,

You are absolutely incorrect. You can make well over 50 grand from 5 thousand. For example If you bought $5000 worth of PDN in Jan 2004 at 5cents and sold in Jan 2005 at .80 cents you would have made $80000!

Another example- if you bought $5000 of AGS in Jan 06 at .20c and sold it in Jan 07 at $2.20 you would now have $55000!

I could point out countless other examples for you however i don't have the time. 

I hope that this increases your understanding of the opportunities that can be found in the share market.

Best regards

Champ


----------



## clowboy (3 February 2007)

exberliner1 said:
			
		

> Trailing stops and conditional orders do not interest me.....I usually have only one or two "hot stocks" on the go at any one time.....so I can look after them my self...
> 
> The free held stuff doesn't really matter as I can hold long term...
> 
> ...




Hey, from what I understand you to be saying you are buying x shares at say a $1 and when (if) they run to say $2 you sell half and let the profits run (slide) as if they were "free".  

Is this correct?  The reason I ask is becuase I have done this on a number of shares.  My problem is that it is confusing me tax wise.  Initially one is deemed a trader for tax reasons, but logically when you keep half the profits for an "indefinite" time you become an investor.  How have you handled this?


----------



## exberliner1 (3 February 2007)

I have only been speculating in Australia for 8 months so it hasn't been an issue yet....Lived in the UK and Germany before I came here....

I took some of the profits I had made in a one year hold of LHG and decided to go for wanton speculation.....as I do around 50 trades a month.....I will have to pay full income tax on my gains I guess....

That's why I need to make a lot of money...

EB


----------



## moses (5 February 2007)

champ2003 said:
			
		

> Hi Moses,
> 
> You are absolutely incorrect. You can make well over 50 grand from 5 thousand. For example...




???

Maybe you should reread my post. I was congratulating Insider and exposing his critics (without embarrassing them by naming them). Not sure how that makes me incorrect.


----------



## champ2003 (5 February 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Maybe you should reread my post. I was congratulating Insider and exposing his critics (without embarrassing them by naming them). Not sure how that makes me incorrect.





Hmm...I just went back and read through this entire thread. It makes fascinating reading. 

Some quotes...

"Your chances of doing this are essentially zero. It's probably pointless telling you why since you won't believe the naysayers"

"Give me all your money. I'll go and blow it on concaine and prostitutes. It shouldn't matter to you, as your going to lose it all anyway"

"You are making the following fatal trading errors;
1. Buying only one stock at a time.
2. Not using a stop loss."

"To go from 5grand to 50grand in 1 year (which was wat insider stated in the original post of this thread) is not only unrealistic, its impossible."

etc.

Yet all he has done since starting the thread (at $9k) is hold onto one single stock. I'm looking forward to Insider announcing a result of $5K to $100K in a year. But I think he has already made his point.

Hi Moses,

If you refer to the above that you wrote i still fail to see any congrat's and it's blatantly obvious that the critisism is coming from you. 

Anyway it now looks like you 've changed your mind and you are dissagreeing with  what you wrote.

Cheers!


----------



## champ2003 (5 February 2007)

champ2003 said:
			
		

> Hmm...I just went back and read through this entire thread. It makes fascinating reading.
> 
> Some quotes...
> 
> ...




Hey sorry moses,

I re read it again and i now understand. It wasn't extremely understood but i can see what you were trying to say. 

Best regards

Champ


----------



## The Mint Man (16 February 2007)

hey insider,
Could you please advise of your current position? been a while since you gave an update.

Cheers


----------



## insider (16 February 2007)

MTN is currently down 2 cents last trade @ $3.33
$200 in bank

9000Shares X $3.33 + $200 = $30170


----------



## lancer (17 February 2007)

Thats awesome!


----------



## tech/a (17 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> MTN is currently down 2 cents last trade @ $3.33
> $200 in bank
> 
> 9000Shares X $3.33 + $200 = $30170




A tremendous example of letting profits run.
Well done.

What is your forward strategy?


----------



## insider (17 February 2007)

tech/a said:
			
		

> A tremendous example of letting profits run.
> Well done.
> 
> What is your forward strategy?



Thanks guys... I'm still going to hold MTN... Their results are sensational, they're going to be hosting some uranium conference in adeliade I believe next month so they'll get some publicity there... They're sensational value... I really want to hold until one year after my settlement date (Novemver something) so that I get the 50% CGT... hopefully by then they'll be worth $650million bucks... They won't issuing shares any time soon because they have 8million bucks in the piggy bank... They might even buy more tenements with the cash... 

Until then I continue to research and make sure that my money is safe... I've been looking at EME alot I'd jump on them If I deicide to sell MTN... UXA is completely out of the question...


----------



## nioka (17 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> MTN is currently down 2 cents last trade @ $3.33
> $200 in bank
> 
> 9000Shares X $3.33 + $200 = $30170



Congratulations you have done well. I hope it continues on well for you. You made a good choice. Have you had a trailing stop loss in place, if so what has it been set at. I note a fair sudden drop one day last week which could have been enough to trigger a sale for a lot of traders.


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (17 February 2007)

Well done Insider, great effort.

If I may add........ a return such as MTN's should be grasped with both hands, forget about the CGT factor (its irrelevant in the scheme of youre profit).

Move on to some value and diversify youre portfolio from the one share......you have the capital now  .


----------



## dj_420 (17 February 2007)

great effort up to now insider. good to see your getting some great returns. i sold MTN already now just holding SMM for my uranium exposure.

just wondering what your plan is regarding the "great debate" ie uranium conference in april.

do you plan to hold and hope they change policy? or sell on anticipation of policy remaining in place?


----------



## insider (17 February 2007)

Hey guys... I wouldn't be chasing the CGT if I didn't think MTN had potential to go significantly higher than what it is now... I don't want to post where I think MTN will be in 8 months time because that's called ramping... So I replace that with "I hope" as in I hope it'll reach $15 ... MTN is long term for me, I'm really impressed by them...

I'll be holding through out the Great Debate because I expect a positive outcome and the "no new mines policy". It'll be abolished eventually... It should because it will counter weight the dinosaur coal industry's eventual downsizing... This is Australia's chance to dominate in a future industry... It'll be interesting to see how China will do with their air pollution problem during the olympics helped brought by the burning of brown coal and cars...

I think both Rudd and Howard are itching to lift the Mines policy and claim the Economic glory for their parties... "See we brought Australia this... blah blah"

Sorry Mr Garret, nice music though


----------



## insider (3 March 2007)

Hello people  

I've been thinking heaps about the Correction period and my current situation. The way I see thing is  if  I sold my shares now (I only hold 9000 MTN shares) @ $3.70 that gets me $33,300 and I'd only pay about $3300 in tax which then means that if I buy back in below $3.30 it makes it worth while because it is from that price I start picking up more shares. 

I don't think I own enough to make use of the CGT discount, what do you think?

What do you think the likely hood of MTN falling more is? Also consider 5 million shares issued and bought buy Escrow @ 20cents are going to be introduced on March the 18th. So MTN is facing Dilution as well as  the risk of Escrow selling some off for profit. It looks worse and worse

Another question, do the experienced investors care about CGT at all?

I'll keep yas up to date with my thoughts and with what I'm doing... so much to think about


----------



## Out Too Soon (5 March 2007)

HI Insider, don't listen to me, listen to freeballinginawetsuit. MTN's had a great run but nothing gos forever, you obviously love the stock, keep some but diversify just like freeball said. Depending on one well picked stock in a bull market is risky but now I'd call it insane. Also there are plenty of bargains out there that get better every day of the fall. Timing is as always *everything*  

PS: I'm not called "Ã–ut Too Soon" for nothing.  so make your own decision.


----------



## Kimosabi (5 March 2007)

As far as I'm concerned, if your paying tax, your making money...


----------



## Out Too Soon (5 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, if your paying tax, your making money...




Too true!
 I used to have a public servant mate who was always complaing about how much tax he had to pay, my answer was always "gees! I wish I had to pay that much tax!".


----------



## dhukka (5 March 2007)

Freeballinginawetsuit said:
			
		

> Well done Insider, great effort.
> 
> If I may add........ a return such as MTN's should be grasped with both hands, forget about the CGT factor (its irrelevant in the scheme of youre profit).
> 
> Move on to some value and diversify youre portfolio from the one share......you have the capital now  .




"Wide diversification is only required when investors do not understand what they are doing."


Warren Buffet

Insider, your exceptional return on your initial investment of $5,000 is due in part to the fact that you aren't diversified. If you have done your homework on this stock, believe it is sound and you cannot find a better alternative, why sell it?


----------



## Bronte (5 March 2007)

dhukka said:
			
		

> "*Wide diversification is only required when investors do not understand what they are doing.*."Warren Buffet



Great quote dhukka


----------



## tech/a (5 March 2007)

Bronte said:
			
		

> Great quote dhukka




Interesting quote.

Depends on the context you take it.
If one sees opportunity in another investment field diversification may well be very profitable.

On the other hand its rare to find more than 1 asset classification booming at once.
So could/would you read Buffets quote as 
*"When the times right place all your eggs in THAT basket"!*

I see it more as investors spread themselves thin hoping to "hit" something.


----------



## nioka (5 March 2007)

dhukka said:
			
		

> "Wide diversification is only required when investors do not understand what they are doing."
> 
> 
> Warren Buffet
> ...



Buffet would certainly not have had all his eggs in one basket. I think he suggested  being spread over 5 stocks at any time.


----------



## surfingman (5 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, if your paying tax, your making money...




I was speaking with my uncle who owns a accountancy firm, he stated that there has been a ruling past a number of months back: You are able to earn $20,000 pa 100% tax free if this money is made as part of a interest or hobby other than your primary means of income, share trading is my hobby but I haven't reached 20 000 as yet!!


----------



## dhukka (5 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> Buffet would certainly not have had all his eggs in one basket. I think he suggested  being spread over 5 stocks at any time.



Buffet never specificied how many stocks he would hold at any one time nor am I advocating a single stock portfolio approach. The point here is that diversifying for the sake of it is nonsense. His message is to invest in sound businesses that you know well rather than investing in things you know nothing about in the hope that you will get lucky. 'Invest' being the operative word which shouldn't be confused with trading.


----------



## Who Dares Wins (5 March 2007)

What this guy wants to do with his $5,000 is possible, or at least was when he posted the thread. For example take IBG - a 20c share in mid august 2006 and a few days ago hit $2.95. And there are other more well known stocks that have behaved in the same fashion. I have had a 400% increase in value when taken against my initial outlay in only 5 months investing in stocks like AZZ, MMX, IBG, WLF, CDU, ARM, BCN AND TFE. Its possible


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

dhukka said:
			
		

> "Wide diversification is only required when investors do not understand what they are doing."
> 
> 
> Warren Buffet
> ...




Great I log in now and MTN has plummeted 43 cents...  . What makes this so confusing is that MTN was on it's way to $5 before the correction. If it had simply plateaued before the correction, the decision to sell would have been made in a heart beat... It's just so hard to sell. It has nothing to do with being attached to the company but everything to do with it's fundamentals.


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> Great I log in now and MTN has plummeted 43 cents...  . What makes this so confusing is that MTN was on it's way to $5 before the correction. If it had simply plateaued before the correction, the decision to sell would have been made in a heart beat... It's just so hard to sell. It has nothing to do with being attached to the company but everything to do with it's fundamentals.





You are holding a speculative explorer who's value is all relative in the marketplace at any given time. The value or fundamentals are debatable. 

Wedsnesday was a volitile day on the market, the rest have been only a downtrend reflecting sentiment. Opportunities have and will present that are of a real nature,any real value can only be found in particular producers ATM and all relative to their CURRENT business activities/outlook regardless of the 'market apprehension'. Unless we have some wider ranges, even the full circle in value might be a slow one!

All the best with MTN insider, Wednesday was the day to sell specks into bounce strength, MTN's SP is now dependant on the market sentiment, certainly not the commodity they produce>they don't and may never produce zip!.


----------



## MichaelD (5 March 2007)

Insider,

Right now, you are probably experiencing some extraordinarily powerful emotions, ones which you were totally unprepared for.

What the stock market giveth the stock market can taketh away, usually much faster than it gave it in the first place. It is not a one way elevator to speculative wealth. Many people are finding this out right now to their great surprise and it's hurting them. You can see the pain and fear throughout ASF.

How you learn from what is happening at the moment will define whether you will remain in the 90% of traders that lose money or the few that succeed.

Hints:

1. Have a Trading Plan.
2. Learn about Risk Management.


----------



## nizar (5 March 2007)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Insider,
> 
> Right now, you are probably experiencing some extraordinarily powerful emotions, ones which you were totally unprepared for.
> 
> ...




3. Learn about Money Management.

And Michael bro you shouldve really said "taketh", it just sounds way better. LOL.

All the best Insider and well done so far.


----------



## MichaelD (5 March 2007)

nizar said:
			
		

> And Michael bro you shouldve really said "taketh", it just sounds way better. LOL.



Hehe - indeed. Changed.


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

Some eye opening experiences coming my way... So a valuable note for next correction period would be "sell speckies first no matter how good they may seem, just dump them"... I didn't get to pay much attention to the last correction period so that's why I'm essentially making the same mistakes as last May. Boy am I embarrassed   . I'm just gonna have to wait for a short bounce and if it falls anymore well I guess i'm just going to have to hold very tight.

The emotional swing is really distracting and I'm already falling behind at Uni. I guess I just don't cut it as a trader and neither do I have the time  

There is just so much to learn! Thanks Fellas  

How long did it take for all the experienced guys to nail the stock market or until you made consistent profits?


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Insider,
> 1. Have a Trading Plan.
> 2. Learn about Risk Management.




Yeah I think I need these... I'll look into them


----------



## MichaelD (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> The emotional swing is really distracting and I'm already falling behind at Uni.
> 
> How long did it take for all the experienced guys to nail the stock market or until you made consistent profits?



Risk Management Rule #1: If you can't sleep at night, you are exposed to too much risk.

It is said to take up to 3 years for traders to become consistently profitable.


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Risk Management Rule #1: If you can't sleep at night, you are exposed to too much risk.
> 
> It is said to take up to 3 years for traders to become consistently profitable.




Sold... Is there a book on risk management?


----------



## nioka (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> Great I log in now and MTN has plummeted 43 cents...  . What makes this so confusing is that MTN was on it's way to $5 before the correction. If it had simply plateaued before the correction, the decision to sell would have been made in a heart beat... It's just so hard to sell. It has nothing to do with being attached to the company but everything to do with it's fundamentals.



I think you had better learn just what fundamentals are. Start with PE ratio.


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> I think you had better learn just what fundamentals are. Start with PE ratio.




Sorry let me rephrase myself... Impressive results... They're not earning anything at the moment... So there is no PE... And that's what classes them as speculative and that's why I should've sold them right away...  ... This is the single worst day drop in the history of the world to me... Lesson learned... I got ahead of myself just like the market so I guess that's why they call it a correction period... But at least I'm still very much in the profit...


----------



## MichaelD (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> Sold... Is there a book on risk management?



Doesn't it feel better now that the pain has stopped?

A book I suggest for you which should hit the bullseye right about now is Van Tharp - Trading Your Way To Financial Freedom.


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

MichaelD said:
			
		

> Doesn't it feel better now that the pain has stopped?
> 
> A book I suggest for you which should hit the bullseye right about now is Van Tharp - Trading Your Way To Financial Freedom.



No I haven't sold the stocks... I'm talking about you sold the idea of risk management... I'm still in pain.

Surely it'll bounce after falling so much in one day! That's what I'm waiting for... then I'll sell.


----------



## Struzball (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> Surely it'll bounce after falling so much in one day!




.. or fall


----------



## insider (5 March 2007)

I think I'm preparing for the market winter and i'll be in for the long term now without a doubt if it keeps falling... Failure to act is another lesson learned... I just don't want to follow the masses


----------



## Riesling (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> No I haven't sold the stocks... I'm talking about you sold the idea of risk management... I'm still in pain.
> 
> Surely it'll bounce after falling so much in one day! That's what I'm waiting for... then I'll sell.




Good luck, we've been waiting for CDU to do that for the last two months!


----------



## Purd2 (5 March 2007)

HEY! Don't give up. Look at what you have achieved so far! Great stuff, they will come back...see if you can find the latest Dines Report and read what it sats re : Uranium.Best of Luck


----------



## surfingman (5 March 2007)

Purd2 said:
			
		

> HEY! Don't give up. Look at what you have achieved so far! Great stuff, they will come back...see if you can find the latest Dines Report and read what it sats re : Uranium.Best of Luck




Hi Purd2,

Is this the site of the report you are referring to http://www.dinesletter.com/?

Quote from above site choice of wording is right on the money   :"If you think the fight between China and the West for the world’s oil is big, this will be more like a nuclear bomb. And it’s fueling an historic uranium stock-price explosion that will dwarf oil’s surge."


----------



## Purd2 (5 March 2007)

Yes it is. Thank you for that. I hope Insider never expects to see a stock just go up without a hiccough along the way and his stock is a good one and he should show faith in it and hang on in there now. Crikey he is way ahead of schedule  LOL  Love it
 That report should restore some confidence, (I love it as I hold WMT and Dine has tipped it.) Probably why the volume was so big today.


----------



## Kimosabi (5 March 2007)

I think we should change this thread title.

"Turning 50,000 dollars into 5,000 dollars"


----------



## surfingman (5 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> I think we should change this thread title.
> 
> "Turning 50,000 dollars into 5,000 dollars"




  I almost said that but a little to close to the heart for some ASF'ers


----------



## Kimosabi (5 March 2007)

surfingman said:
			
		

> I almost said that but a little to close to the heart for some ASF'ers




Yes I know what you mean, whenever I close my eyes, all I can see is RED


----------



## barney (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> I think I'm preparing for the market winter and i'll be in for the long term now without a doubt if it keeps falling... Failure to act is another lesson learned... I just don't want to follow the masses




Hey Insider, You have to try and keep it all in perspective .............. you have achieved a great result, even if you decide to sell into the last couple of days losses ......... Dont know whether you read my story on CDU, but I did about 60-70 grand (so long ago I've nearly forgot ....not!!!!) in a week or so, simply by being uneducated/green/stupid/no money management/etc etc etc. , so the fact that you are WELL in front is a feather in your cap ............ you have had the wonderful experience of learning a very valuable lesson while still ending up WAY in front ............ I would give almost anything to be in that position right now ................ AND I'm losing a lot atm as well in this downturn .......... bugga ................. M8, Take the positives out of the situation because, apart from being obviously pretty smart, you are both very fortunate, and very lucky .................. what if this downturn had hit just after you put your 5 grand into something that tanked and you lost half of it ......... Atm you are about 25 grand up (???) .................. be happy with your effort/result ............... and start sleeping at night ............. the markets will be here for as long as you and I are, and you are in front ............. CONGRATULATIONS ............. (Dont get down on yourself cause you've had to give a little bit back for experience .... that is money well spent .............. trust me ; I speak from experience) 

All the best, Barney.


----------



## MichaelD (5 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> I just don't want to follow the masses



In fact you are doing exactly that by not having a set in concrete exit plan covering all contingencies before entering this trade.

Do you know what the price of MTN will be tomorrow? Do I know what the price of MTN will be tomorrow? Will it bounce back? Will it tank?

What about next week? Next month? Next year?

I don't know. Nobody knows.


Barney has learned much in his journey to date and his words are wise. Give them consideration.

To paraphrase his comments - you are in the extremely fortuitous position of bagging two big winners in a row. Skill? Luck? Both? But now what do you do...?


----------



## nizar (5 March 2007)

barney said:
			
		

> you have had the wonderful experience of learning a very valuable lesson while still ending up WAY in front ............ I would give almost anything to be in that position right now




EXACTLY.


----------



## value investor (6 March 2007)

If you accept that you are only dealing with luck ( and I believe you are BIG TIME) then you would be much better off going to the TAB and putting all of your money on the nose of a 10:1 bet. You are more likely going to get the result you want, you wont have to wait around to see what happens, and if it does payoff there are no fees or capital gains tax. You sound more like a gambler than an investor.
Anyway I hope it pays off for you, fortune favours the brave.


----------



## Purd2 (11 March 2007)

Hey...Insider!!!  Have you still got your 9000 shares. You are miles in front of your time line. Good luck. Doing well considering the market retrace.


----------



## insider (11 March 2007)

Thanks heaps.... I still got the 9000 shares... it was hard not to give into the pressure of selling but I managed to mind wrestle myself and remind myself that my strategy is long term... I figured out that my greatest pain was missing out on growth because once upon a time I owned AGS shares and sold at 43 cents and watched it hit $2.00  .... If I had sold MTN at the opportunities I had I would've lost a lot of money. I reminded myself how much hard research I do... Research and knowing what you're buying is the most important thing in investing... to me anyway...

With MTN's recent developments I don't see it falling below $3.50... but anything can happen  

3.76X9000+200=$34,040


----------



## moses (11 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> I reminded myself how much hard research I do... Research and knowing what you're buying is the most important thing in investing... to me anyway...




Thats what separates you from the gamblers; research gave you knowledge, knowledge gave you the confidence to make and stick with a decision, and the pay off has been huge.

Its not luck.

We all know that some stocks will prove to be 10 baggers and more; the stock market consistently delivers such performance. The big trick is to identify and buy them *before* the fact so as to profit from them, which you seem to be doing quite nicely. Well done.


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## tech/a (11 March 2007)

> I reminded myself how much hard research I do... Research and knowing what you're buying is the most important thing in investing... to me anyway...




There *WILL* come a time when you'll realise that its a minor aspect of trading.

Thats probably a long while off as you learn very little when profiting.
But then again may not be as far off as you would hope.



> Thats what separates you from the gamblers; research gave you knowledge, knowledge gave you the confidence to make and stick with a decision, and the pay off has been huge.




Moses while IT has done very well so far with this trade.
None of the above in your quote ensures your *NOT* in the areana of gambling.Ive met many gamblers who have researched their brains out.

And MANY Successful people who have very little knowledge (They employ those who have!!)--who is the smarter?


----------



## insider (5 April 2007)

Hello... today is very exciting as I have broken the $40,000 dollar mark for the first time

I'm still holding 9000 MTN shares

my current position is $200 + (9000X$4.43) = $200 + $39870 = $40070 = Very happy


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## dj_420 (5 April 2007)

hey insider what do plan on doing once you reach 50 k, sell or hold?

and are you re-investing into shares or have something in mind with some of that nice earned cash?

just curious, well done mate, you held on a lot longer than i did. i sold my MTN at just under $2


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## insider (5 April 2007)

dj_420 said:


> hey insider what do plan on doing once you reach 50 k, sell or hold?
> 
> and are you re-investing into shares or have something in mind with some of that nice earned cash?
> 
> just curious, well done mate, you held on a lot longer than i did. i sold my MTN at just under $2




I'm planning to sell a year after settlement (November 11) and depending on how much money I have will dictate how I spend it... There's two things on my mind... Buy a motorbike and move out of my parents place (they Frustrate me )... It's very exciting... I'm so glad I found the share market...


----------



## insider (5 April 2007)

dj_420 said:


> hey insider what do plan on doing once you reach 50 k, sell or hold?
> 
> and are you re-investing into shares or have something in mind with some of that nice earned cash?
> 
> just curious, well done mate, you held on a lot longer than i did. i sold my MTN at just under $2




What are you holding now?


----------



## Sean K (5 April 2007)

insider said:


> It's very exciting... I'm so glad I found the share market...



Until is corrects again....Or MTN go into receivership....It's not 50K yet, and even if it was, you haven't crystalised it, and when you do there is capital gains tax..blah..blah...Sorry, you just have MTN don't you?


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## insider (5 April 2007)

yes I certainly dooo


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## Sean K (5 April 2007)

insider said:


> yes I certainly dooo



I'm holding it too so I hope it keeps going, but anything can happen in this crazy world. Putting all your eggs in one basket is certainly the way to make a lot of money. Or, lose it all. I've never had the conviction to do it, which may mean I'm never going to be wealthy and semi retired, volunteering as a moderator on an internet forum at 37. Hang on..... Good luck mate, I'm actually waiting for a tie up between MTN/AGS/Quasar (Heathgate etc) which will be one hell of a U company. 

Your other option is to take $25K out of MTN and go and put it on black at Crown.


----------



## Captain_Chaza (5 April 2007)

That's EASY!
Put Einstein's 8th wonder of the world in your favour!!!
ie: "The Power of Compounding"

Step 1
Turn $5000 into $10,000  within 3 mths

Step 2
Turn $10,000 into $20,000 within the next 3 months

Step 3
Turn $20,000 into $40,000 within the next 3 months

Step 4 
Turn $40,000 into $80,000 within the next 3 months

Pay your fair share of Taxes
Game over!
It's as simple as that!


----------



## insider (5 April 2007)

kennas said:


> I'm holding it too so I hope it keeps going, but anything can happen in this crazy world. Putting all your eggs in one basket is certainly the way to make a lot of money. Or, lose it all. I've never had the conviction to do it, which may mean I'm never going to be wealthy and semi retired, volunteering as a moderator on an internet forum at 37. Hang on..... Good luck mate, I'm actually waiting for a tie up between MTN/AGS/Quasar (Heathgate etc) which will be one hell of a U company.
> 
> Your other option is to take $25K out of MTN and go and put it on black at Crown.




Yeah but the rules were using the share market... I guess that may also include the stock tipping competition so add another $25 for second place the other month...


----------



## Jimminy (6 April 2007)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



MichaelD said:


> Your chances of doing this are essentially zero. It's probably pointless telling you why since you won't believe the naysayers.




Don't you love going back and reading old posts like this??

First time I have read this thread. Well done insider - you are almost there.

In working for the govt for 7 years I accumulated $60k super ann. Created a DIYSF with my wife and parents, and I have more than doubled this amount in 6 months! Goes to show we are in a golden period of the stockmarket. Make hay while the sun shines as they say.

Good luck with the $50k.


----------



## MichaelD (7 April 2007)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



Jimminy said:


> Don't you love going back and reading old posts like this??



And this.







			
				Insider said:
			
		

> The emotional swing is really distracting and I'm already falling behind at Uni.


----------



## insider (7 April 2007)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



MichaelD said:


> And this.




Actually the main reason I fall behind in Uni is because I work for my parents Five days a week "For FREE"... It's called family business... You wouldn't understand... That quote of mine was referring to that particular week... I'm up to date mate  Thanx for asking

Don't worry I'll finish with High Distinctions again and a GPA of 3.2


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## MichaelD (7 April 2007)

Insider, great to see that you've learnt the lesson the market tried to teach you.

(oh, you didn't)


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## investforwealth (7 April 2007)

I've only just happened upon this thread; it's provided an interesting read, thanks to all who've contributed their thoughts.

Insider... congratulations, you've had the conviction to stick to your guns and do it your way.  

I'd have to agree with some of the other sentiments that your strategy was inherently one of high risk, and possibly akin to gambling.  But as we here all know, risk and reward are closely related.  Gambling/speculating... we all do it from time to time and as long as we do it with our eyes open, who is anyone else to say that what we're doing isn't an appropriate course of action for us to take at the time.  

You understood and accepted the risk from the outset and chased an appropriate reward.  Whilst some of the naysayers might be approaching their golden years, you are young and have an entire working life ahead of you.   Naturally your tolerance to risk is going to be a lot higher than some of the grayhairs who have put you down.  You don't have kids to feed, a mortage to service or any of those other things that might lead you to avoid higher risk investment strategies.  If things had gone the other way, you're certainly in a position to build up the bank again and have another go.

It reminds me of some of the financial planners we sought advice from a while back... they were aghast that we were going to throw more than a million bucks at the market, and tried their best convince us that it should be placed into the hands of fund managers.  Of course, I'm sure it has at least as much to do with entry fees and trailing commissions as it does any desire to protect us.  They fully expected that their own ideas in relation to risk and their own risk tolerance should be adopted by us, how could we think any differently to them.  After all, they're the ones with the DIPLOMA. (LOL)

I think perhaps some of those here who've bagged you out may be just a tiny bit jealous that they're not in a position to have your attitude to risk...  

Well done, dude!


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## Julia (7 April 2007)

investforwealth said:


> It reminds me of some of the financial planners we sought advice from a while back... they were aghast that we were going to throw more than a million bucks at the market, and tried their best convince us that it should be placed into the hands of fund managers.  Of course, I'm sure it has at least as much to do with entry fees and trailing commissions as it does any desire to protect us.  They fully expected that their own ideas in relation to risk and their own risk tolerance should be adopted by us, how could we think any differently to them.  After all, they're the ones with the DIPLOMA. (LOL)




You are so right about the fees and trailing commissions.  I'd say the same about some full service stockbrokers - very little genuine interest in the client actually making money, (e.g. "charts are rubbish",  "oh, we still have a Buy on that" - this when the SP has been dropping for three months!.  - but lots of interest in increasing the number of transactions and hence their own income.  I actually lost money during the brief time I was a client of a full service broker!

Insider:  Glad you are doing so well.  Hope you reach your goal.


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## value investor (7 April 2007)

To steal a quote from the great Warren Buffett.
"The stock market is the only place where people drive up in limousines to get advice from people who catch the subway to work". This may not be the exact quote however I think it is appropriate and that you would agree with the idea.


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## insider (8 April 2007)

Thanks for your valued support everyone...  

How much money is enough money to invest with to achieve a sizable income of ($30,000 a year)?

I don't expect to have the gains I'm having at the moment forever... Soon the market will go sideways and then it will go down and then up and a around... you get the point


----------



## nizar (8 April 2007)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



insider said:


> Actually the main reason I fall behind in Uni is because I work for my parents Five days a week "For FREE"... It's called family business... You wouldn't understand...





Wrong attitude brother.
Its actually "For the FAMILY" not for free.
Its supporting the business that pays for bills/food/expenses. My family has a business also and im very proud to help my dad in his venture and in what he has achieved so far. For me actually its more 7 days.
Its about a bit of self-sacrifice of your own personal monetary gain, i mean, come on, its for you and your family.
The money the business earns will go back 2u.


----------



## champ2003 (8 April 2007)

kennas said:


> Until is corrects again....Or MTN go into receivership....It's not 50K yet, and even if it was, you haven't crystalised it, and when you do there is capital gains tax..blah..blah...Sorry, you just have MTN don't you?




MTN go into recievership? Is that just a scary thought or are you serious? I can't see them going into recievership, there are normally signs of that happening many months or years before it happens which also then reflects on the share price dropping over that period of time. 

(Capital gains tax) If Insider holds his shares for 1 year or more he only needs to pay 25% tax on the gains made so he only needs to hold on for a litle longer for larger gains to offset the tax as well.


----------



## insider (8 April 2007)

*Re: Turning 5000 dollars into 50,000 dollars*



nizar said:


> Wrong attitude brother.
> Its actually "For the FAMILY" not for free.
> Its supporting the business that pays for bills/food/expenses. My family has a business also and im very proud to help my dad in his venture and in what he has achieved so far. For me actually its more 7 days.
> Its about a bit of self-sacrifice of your own personal monetary gain, i mean, come on, its for you and your family.
> The money the business earns will go back 2u.




I know what you're saying but If I didn't state 'for free' people would Assume they were paying me... 

They are the most ungrateful people on the face of the planet... I have to do everything for them and I'm expected to be quiet and put everything everything aside for the business... To most people they wouldn't understand what working for the family is... they understand paid or unpaid...

You're right... it's the wrong attitude... Their attitude


----------



## insider (8 April 2007)

champ2003 said:


> MTN go into recievership? Is that just a scary thought or are you serious? I can't see them going into recievership, there are normally signs of that happening many months or years before it happens which also then reflects on the share price dropping over that period of time.
> 
> (Capital gains tax) If Insider holds his shares for 1 year or more he only needs to pay 25% tax on the gains made so he only needs to hold on for a litle longer for larger gains to offset the tax as well.




Kennas was being Hypothetical...


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## nizar (8 April 2007)

champ2003 said:


> MTN go into recievership? Is that just a scary thought or are you serious?




No its just coz hes a moderator now so he has to be super bearish on everything! :


----------



## Julia (8 April 2007)

insider said:


> Thanks for your valued support everyone...
> 
> How much money is enough money to invest with to achieve a sizable income of ($30,000 a year)?




Depends how you want to invest it.  A very conservative person, wanting to live off bank interest, e.g. is going to need nearly $600,000 to produce $30,000.   Before long inflation will render that amount inadequate if all the interest is needed for living expenses.

If you assume capacity to earn, say, 10% p.a. then $300,000 will do it.

What I wouldn't be doing is calculate the capital required on the basis of gains made over the last couple of years.


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## nizar (8 April 2007)

Julia said:


> What I wouldn't be doing is calculate the capital required on the basis of gains made over the last couple of years.




Neither would I.


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## insider (8 April 2007)

Yeah you're right y'know... How much could one person expect to earn with shares during a bear market? You'd have to learn to make use of every dead cat bounce and because of the frequent trading I guess fees and and taxes will gobble up the earnings... Maybe there are other ways of making money outside the share market and working... I guess Real Estate would be one...

When was the last Bear Market period by the way?


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## nizar (8 April 2007)

insider said:


> When was the last Bear Market period by the way?




April 2000 - March 2003.
That was after the tech boom.

1988-1993 was bearish/sideways.

Before that, probably the 70s bear.


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## insider (9 April 2007)

Thanks Nizar...


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## insider (9 April 2007)

What year was Super annuation introduced?


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## kromey (9 April 2007)

insider said:


> What year was Super annuation introduced?




1991 i think


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## nizar (9 April 2007)

insider said:


> What year was Super annuation introduced?




July 1992.
See the data thread (Richards post) there is some discussion about this.


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## Temjin (9 April 2007)

Insider, congratulations on getting more than 600% return of your money. You successfully gambled your $5000 in a highly speculative stock and you hit the jackpot. Now take the money and never do it again, especially in the long term. You are destined to lose all the money you've just gained in the future if you decided to pursue such "lucative" (in your mind/experience that is) opportunity again.

Like some others, while we are being negative, we are giving you a professional advice as a good will because we don't want to see you burnt out completely when your "speculative" trading with no plans do not work again.

Hear our advices, sell the stock NOW and go read Dr Van Tharp's Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom and learn how to develop your own trading system and understand the ever important concept of position sizing and money management. 

And IF you managed to read the entire book and understand his ideas, you will think about how "lucky" you were and glad you actually made profit in this particular run.

While this thread is fairly educational, it is also in my opinion, a thread that lure more greedy people into the market and burnt themselve really badly. They would think, "ohhhh, this guy did it with a WELL researched speculative stock and made 600%, perhaps I should leverage my position and earn 3000%!!! Then I would be rich!". Then he goes in and.....the rest is history depending on his/her luck. 

Again, we are not trying to be negative, we are just being "realistic" that in the "long run", you need an ENTIRELLY DIFFERENT MINDSET AND APPROACH to trading in the share market. We (at least myself) can guarantee you that your chance of losing most of your money in the next few "trades", using the same strategy, is almost a certainely.

Stop now, relax a bit and do some reading before going back in again.


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## nizar (9 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> Insider, congratulations on getting more than 600% return of your money. You successfully gambled your $5000 in a highly speculative stock and you hit the jackpot. Now take the money and never do it again, especially in the long term. You are destined to lose all the money you've just gained in the future if you decided to pursue such "lucative" (in your mind/experience that is) opportunity again.
> 
> Like some others, while we are being negative, we are giving you a professional advice as a good will because we don't want to see you burnt out completely when your "speculative" trading with no plans do not work again.
> 
> ...





Agree wholly.
Great post.


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## champ2003 (9 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Agree wholly.
> Great post.




I agree also that a trading knowledge is very important and experience is the only way to learn in the market. No books will actually teach you what to do. They only give various strategies that were dependent on the financial/global or company situation at that time. There are far too many variables that need to be restled with and you can never know everything in the share market. I guess that's why we aren't all millionaires.

I think its fantastic that Insider has achieved so much from MTN and I'm a heavy believer that Insider can at least double his money again from now before I would be saying to sell. 

Anyway this is just in my opinion.


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## champ2003 (9 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> Insider, congratulations on getting more than 600% return of your money. You successfully gambled your $5000 in a highly speculative stock and you hit the jackpot. Now take the money and never do it again, especially in the long term. You are destined to lose all the money you've just gained in the future if you decided to pursue such "lucative" (in your mind/experience that is) opportunity again.
> 
> Like some others, while we are being negative, we are giving you a professional advice as a good will because we don't want to see you burnt out completely when your "speculative" trading with no plans do not work again.
> 
> ...





Also consideration should be given to the fact that Insider is not a trader and is not attempting to be one by the looks of things so the trading strategies in this instance aren't at all needed or necessary. Insider is a long term investor! Well at this stage anyway, so to buy and hold the way that Insider has done is fair and normall for any investor other than putting all of the eggs in one basket which under normal circumstances is very risky.


----------



## Temjin (10 April 2007)

champ2003 said:


> I agree also that a trading knowledge is very important and experience is the only way to learn in the market. No books will actually teach you what to do. They only give various strategies that were dependent on the financial/global or company situation at that time. There are far too many variables that need to be restled with and you can never know everything in the share market. I guess that's why we aren't all millionaires.
> 
> I think its fantastic that Insider has achieved so much from MTN and I'm a heavy believer that Insider can at least double his money again from now before I would be saying to sell.
> 
> Anyway this is just in my opinion.




I can safely tell you that there ARE BOOKS out there that will teach you how to become a successful trader and cover everything from psychology to a writing a business trading plan to more detailed strategies (where a major of people tend to focus on) such as entries, exits to position sizing and money management. 

You are right that there are too many variables on the market but the main point is, you do not need to know everything about the market, nor try to predict/control everything. The secret to trading usually lies on the person alone and their mindset on how to approach the market. 

The fact is that most people in the world do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is REQUIRED FOR SUCCESS. Put this in the trading perspective, a great majority of people only tend to focus on trying to find the holy grail of trading, that is, to be able to predict everything what is going on in the market and develop a system that is 100% realiability. They are "conditioned" to win, not to lose and thus, usually lead themselve to finanical ruin because they cannot overcome their natural biases. 

This is exactly the reasons why alot of us aren't millionaires yet and only a few who "understand" what it takes to be a successful trader. 

I can go on forever but like I said before, Insider was simply lucky and the chance of him to continue to double his money via the same strategies again through the next few trades is extremely extremely extremely extremely small, if not impossible.  



champ2003 said:


> Also consideration should be given to the fact that Insider is not a trader and is not attempting to be one by the looks of things so the trading strategies in this instance aren't at all needed or necessary. Insider is a long term investor! Well at this stage anyway, so to buy and hold the way that Insider has done is fair and normall for any investor other than putting all of the eggs in one basket which under normal circumstances is very risky.




Nope, there is no such thing as a long term investor. In fact, I don't even know what is a long term investor. When you buy a stock, don't you make any subconscious decision to sell the stock at some time if certain things happen? For example, it no longer represent values, the stock price dropped significantly or you want to lock in the profit. 

Insider is a trader and he is playing with speculative stocks with potential for huge gains without any risk management or exit plans. 

What happens if he purchase the next cheap stock with the full profit he just made, and then it drop in values by more than 50%? What is he going to do? Or are you suggesting the stock he picked will NEVER drop in value because of his "research" skill into the company? 

He doesn't have a plan at all and is simply gambling his money. If he wish to pursue such strategies in the long term, he need to understand elements of trading and has to create a plan to his "long term investment" trading system.


----------



## Kimosabi (10 April 2007)

So Insider, when do you cash in?

Nice work.


----------



## insider (10 April 2007)

Kimosabi said:


> So Insider, when do you cash in?
> 
> Nice work.




Thanks...

When I get 50% CGT and/or when the market tells me to...


----------



## insider (10 April 2007)

I feel like changing my avatar....


----------



## nizar (10 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> I can safely tell you that there ARE BOOKS out there that will teach you how to become a successful trader and cover everything from psychology to a writing a business trading plan to more detailed strategies (where a major of people tend to focus on) such as entries, exits to position sizing and money management.
> 
> You are right that there are too many variables on the market but the main point is, you do not need to know everything about the market, nor try to predict/control everything. The secret to trading usually lies on the person alone and their mindset on how to approach the market.
> 
> ...




Worth repeating.


----------



## insider (10 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> Nope, there is no such thing as a long term investor. In fact, I don't even know what is a long term investor.
> 
> Insider is a trader and he is playing with speculative stocks with potential for huge gains without any risk management or exit plans.




I was having a discussion with my brother about this and we came to the conclusion that shares aren't really portions of a company any more but like a commodity instead... Once upon a time people would invest in a company because they believed in the company... In contrast some people on this forum have openly admitted that they have invested in companies without even knowing what they do... I don't understand this as much as people understand my trading strategies... It doesn't make sense to  me why would you even risk that... The share market has become a place where people simply shuffle money nowadays... 

It was really interesting how shares can be seen as a commodity, something disposable but to others they are companies... I guess that's the main difference between a Trader and an Investor...


----------



## insider (10 April 2007)

I'm not a trader... I'm an investor who watches the market very closely and If I have to I will push the eject button... there hasn't been any reason to yet...

I'm fortunate to have invested in MTN because when I did I only knew a fraction of what I know of them... I had plans to knock them off after $3.00 but It's because of my research IMO it'd be better to hold... It's works and gives strong results... When the market changes then so will my strategy...


----------



## Lert (10 April 2007)

Interesting thread..  Goes to show how much difference there is is each of our objectives.. Insider puts up $5K (which he could probably afford to loose) while others (like me) are probably older (60+) and are investing their future financial well being. In my case, with SMSF, loosing my stake was not an option and from being an ASX newbie 18months ago had to tread very carefully. I'm happy to report that after 18months with around 25 stocks i'm up about 50% which I'm happy with. My target when setting out on this journey was 25% pa..


----------



## Kimosabi (10 April 2007)

The only thing I would do if I was Insiders position would be to sell whatever shares are necessary to cover my initial investment.

That way the initial capital is protected and then everything else is cream...


----------



## BIG BWACULL (10 April 2007)

Or take out the cream and leave the initial investment, YUM and transfer to my account 1800 NEED CASH


----------



## Temjin (10 April 2007)

insider said:


> I'm not a trader... I'm an investor who watches the market very closely and If I have to I will push the eject button... there hasn't been any reason to yet...
> 
> I'm fortunate to have invested in MTN because when I did I only knew a fraction of what I know of them... I had plans to knock them off after $3.00 but It's because of my research IMO it'd be better to hold... It's works and gives strong results... When the market changes then so will my strategy...




That's EXACTLY why you need a trading plan for your "strategy". 

Hell, if you like, you can call it an "investing" plan, works both way to me.  

You invested in MTN, but surely you have some sort of "criterias" for investing in such company. This is when to buy plan. 

Now how long were you planning to hold, and what are your exit criterias? You planned to exit at $3.00 but it hasn't reached that point yet. What happens if it doesn't reach it? What happens if it dropped back below your original purchase value? You need to have a plan to prepare for all this and you just cannot ASSUME anything wouldn't happen just because your research skills into the fundamentals of the company tell you so. Anything could happen and there is NO EXCUSES not to plan ahead. 

From what you have written so far, you only barely covered both concepts above and almost did it subconciously. (i.e. I will buy this share, hold it until $3.00 and get out if something happens.) 

You completely ignored your position sizing, that is, how much of your capital are you willing to risk to get that $3.00 price share profit. Are you willing to risk 50% of your $5000? 20%? 10%? 

What about the next "investment" you are going to make? Are you going to use the same strategy or going to change it? Are you sure the same strategy will work in the next 20 investments? Have you tested such strategies on paper before you commit your real money into it? 

Do you think you can assume that your next 20 investments will be ALL profitable, that is, you exit at a profit? Are you prepared to accept a losing investment if your research fails? And if so, how much lost per investment? How many lost in a row can you accept before you lose your entire investment capital? Yes, you can change your strategy if a particular strategy does not work, but are you sure your next strategy is going to work, and wouldn't produce a lost too?

In my opinion, all investors should learn all the basic concept of successful trading, even if they admit they are just "long term investors". That's why I said there is no such thing as long term investor, unless you plan to invest like Warren Buffet where he almost never sell anything he brought. 

Like I said, sell your holdings now and be very very happy with the profit you've just made. At least like A/tech said, you did a great job at letting profit run. Most "investors/traders" would have been satisfied and exit with a 100% profit on their holdings.


----------



## nizar (10 April 2007)

Insider - Temjin has just summarised just about all the requirements needed to trade successfully.
You would be wise to take note of these.


----------



## CanOz (10 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Insider - Temjin has just summarised just about all the requirements needed to trade successfully.
> You would be wise to take note of these.




He's not a trader, Nizar. He's an investor , but i agree he should protect his investment with a stop at least....at the breakeven point as a minimum. I'd probably sell and get th 5k back. Anyway good on ya Insider.

Just curious, CGT is paid at marginal rate, Insider wouldn't have much CGT to pay would he? 

Cheers,


----------



## insider (10 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> That's EXACTLY why you need a trading plan for your "strategy".
> 
> Hell, if you like, you can call it an "investing" plan, works both way to me.
> 
> ...




Thanks a lot Temjin for your efforts in posting... This is what the purpose of this thread was... With the initial 5000 dollar investment I was planning to buy and hold until I'd stick my head out of the ground because of my frustration with my losses to EXT (I hate those people... Bloody thieves)... essentially my capital was diminishing and 5000 dollars was where I started again... I followed suggestions from some people from the forum and researched DYL... I was happy with them as some results were due... I should've let profits run because they went to 45 cents when but I sold them at 27.5 cents I think... I was happy to get my money back plus more after EXT... 

Understand $5,000 really isn't much to lose... and it's not enough to diversify IMO. (A bit of luck but I made the mistake of not letting Profits run again)... I've done this mistake with AGS, UXA, and others... 

after selling DYL I bought MTN... I had about $9200... I bought 9000 shares and kept $200 aside so in case my portfolio fell by 200 I 'd sell and still have 9000... I was confident in MTN... I researched more... the price went up... I was thinking of jumping onto UXA and I did research on UXA and I was not impressed and I put them in the pretenders list... And I held ever since because they are consistent and extremely Cheap!!!

I research other companies on the side in the mean time incase MTN goes belly up so I always have a backup... PNN, EME, CAV and WMT are my picks other than MTN... They are all having amazing gains...

I hold onto MTN more so for tax reasons and the fact they're good.. anyway I gotta go ciao


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## nizar (10 April 2007)

CanOz said:


> He's not a trader, Nizar. He's an investor , but i agree he should protect his investment with a stop at least....at the breakeven point as a minimum. I'd probably sell and get th 5k back. Anyway good on ya Insider.
> 
> Just curious, CGT is paid at marginal rate, Insider wouldn't have much CGT to pay would he?
> 
> Cheers,




Can,

Investor/trader it doesnt matter.
Its fine if you pick your entries from fundamental analysis, but that doesnt mean you should completely ignore position sizing and exits.

Those that look at fundamentals for entries but have stringent risk/money management and have exits PROVEN to have worked over time, do very well in the markets, actually not much better than random entry, but still, because of their money management and exits, they outperform big time.


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## CanOz (10 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Can,
> 
> Investor/trader it doesnt matter.
> Its fine if you pick your entries from fundamental analysis, but that doesnt mean you should completely ignore position sizing and exits.
> ...




Agree totally. Many i believe, call themselves an 'investor' after failing to do the above.

Cheers,


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## Halba (10 April 2007)

Let it run, not worth selling these uranium stocks as they always make new 52 week highs. Not to mention the rerating to actual production is quite high(paladin?)


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## stoxclimber (10 April 2007)

nizar said:


> Those that look at fundamentals for entries but have stringent risk/money management and have exits PROVEN to have worked over time, do very well in the markets, actually not much better than random entry, but still, because of their money management and exits, they outperform big time.





What's the evidence? Most studies I've seen suggest active management, ceteris paribus, decreases returns.


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## Temjin (10 April 2007)

stoxclimber said:


> What's the evidence? Most studies I've seen suggest active management, ceteris paribus, decreases returns.




You are mistakening "active management" from traditional managed funds verse money management theories in system trading. 

Traditional managed funds cannot and will NEVER be able to apply the same type of money management techniques that all successful traders can freely execute. This is largely due to the ways their money are managed where they almost always are in long positions, are in large amount, almost always 100% invested and cannot liquidate their positions as easily as individual traders. Private traders are far more flexible when it comes to applying effective money management and they do not have any obligations to the management levels. 

You will get better ideas when you read more into the topic of "money management" for traders. 



Insider,

Glad you took the time to read them and do hope you learn something from it.

I really do not want to pick out individual parts of your story and go through some of the common mistakes that most investors/traders do. But just by reading it, it's obvious you never had a plan in place when you decide to pursue "investing" in all these cheap, speculative stocks. 

My final advice is to STOP what you are doing all together now! Stop trying to make back the profit you've lost before and ask yourself if you are REALLY going to commit yourself to share trading. If you are treating it as a hobby, then you better get out now as it is probably one of the most expensive and painful hobby in the world.

If you are committed, then please go and grab a copy of Dr. Van Tharp's Trade Your Way To Financial Freedom and read it through several times. After that, then rethink what you have done in the past and you will get why I am trying to save you here.


Maybe I should ask myself why I am bothering posting all these stuff anyway? It's not my money.  heh Good luck anyway.


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## Julia (10 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> Maybe I should ask myself why I am bothering posting all these stuff anyway? It's not my money.  heh Good luck anyway.




Temjin

Don't have reservations about trying to help someone else.  That should be part of what a forum is about.  You've offered Insider really good advice which hopefully he will consider.

Insider
Remember how your spirits sank when MTN dropped significantly with many others amongst the recent correction.  Perhaps it might be good to think about how you'd be feeling now if it had not recovered?  
Sometimes we "fall in love" with stocks to the extent that we simply can't imagine them letting us down.

Good luck and good management

Julia


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## misterS (10 April 2007)

This has been a greatly entertaining and revealing thread. Don't buy a motorbike and move out of home - start a new thread titled "turning 50,000 dollars into 500,000 dollars"...


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## nizar (10 April 2007)

misterS said:


> This has been a greatly entertaining and revealing thread. Don't buy a motorbike and move out of home - start a new thread titled "turning 50,000 dollars into 500,000 dollars"...




Tend to agree.
It would be fun to watch.


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## nomore4s (10 April 2007)

Julia said:


> Temjin
> 
> Don't have reservations about trying to help someone else.  That should be part of what a forum is about.  You've offered Insider really good advice which hopefully he will consider.
> 
> ...




I agree with you Julia. I've also got a lot from your posts Temjin.

Thanks


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## misterS (10 April 2007)

...and let's face it the guy is currently red-hot - even picked ppn in the tipping comp.

But don't let me start cheer-squadding Insider into blowing what is now a sizeable chunk of cash that resulted from what the experienced people consider a pretty unusual result.

You seem pretty switched-on, but share market success can have exactly that lovely gambling-bug kind of effect on otherwise sensible people - it isn't just mugs - that any gambling has.  I'm sure many will protest that for them it is nigh on a science, and not gambling at all, the way they do it, but it generally engages the same kind of response.  

As you are a student, maybe you should see what kind of work in the fund game is open to you (unless you are studying for a Doctorate of Divinity)  Sure as hell, this thread would make a fair CV for a start.


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## stoxclimber (10 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> You are mistakening "active management" from traditional managed funds verse money management theories in system trading.




Is he a system trader? I rest my case.


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## Temjin (11 April 2007)

Julia said:


> Temjin
> 
> Don't have reservations about trying to help someone else. That should be part of what a forum is about. You've offered Insider really good advice which hopefully he will consider.
> 
> ...




Thanks Julia.  I think the reasons why I am more concerned about this post is I want to prevent others from being hurt in the market by thinking they could do the same too and attempt to follow insider's "success" in his one off gamble style trading. 

Very good comment on the psychology part too. Alot of people are not aware of how they could serious psychology could impair one's ability to trade/invest. 

Rule of the day, never have loyalty for any stocks you invest/trade in. The price of any stock is not NEVER driven completely by the fundamentals of the company. Short term, or even long term movement of a stock price is driven by the overall psychology of the market in which no single person has control or predict. Mass greed/fear can pull fundamentals out of the window all together in the short term. And because of this fear, stock prices can drop much faster than it can go up regardless of how good the company's fundamentals are. 




nomore4s said:


> I agree with you Julia. I've also got a lot from your posts Temjin.
> 
> Thanks




Thanks too, glad you took the time to read it. 




stoxclimber said:


> Is he a system trader? I rest my case.




Does it matter?


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## Kimosabi (16 April 2007)

The way MTN is going, Insider will go from 5,000 to 100,000 in a year.

Up $1.50 in 7 days


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## spooly74 (16 April 2007)

:bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi 

Job done insider

Best of luck holding for CGT relief in Nov.
Congrats


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## Kimosabi (16 April 2007)

spooly74 said:


> :bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi :bananasmi
> 
> Job done insider
> 
> ...




Somehow, I think Insider may be a nervous wreck by then...


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## cornyco (16 April 2007)

Well done insider.
at $5.66 your there. 
Now for your new challenge,can you double it before the end of the 12 mth's. 
This message will self-destruct in 30 seconds.
Good luck


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## Gar (16 April 2007)

Congrats mate!

In all honesty, I didnt think you had a hope in hell, you've done bloody well. 

Now the real test will be holding onto that profit...


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## insider (16 April 2007)

Thank you all very much... I'm really happy and just a day after my 21st birthday I broke the $50,000 barrier... :band :bier: 

There are new challenges in the horizon ahead and I'll get back to yas later about.

To be continued...


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## Mousie (16 April 2007)

Welcome to the ten-baggers' club, insider. Truly, truly well done... _c'est magnifique_!


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## CanOz (16 April 2007)

insider said:


> Thank you all very much... I'm really happy and just a day after my 21st birthday I broke the $50,000 barrier... :band :bier:
> 
> There are new challenges in the horizon ahead and I'll get back to yas later about.
> 
> To be continued...




Yes well done Insider, certainly a story to tell the grand kids one day! 

Good luck in the future too.

Cheers,


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## Temjin (16 April 2007)

insider said:


> Thank you all very much... I'm really happy and just a day after my 21st birthday I broke the $50,000 barrier... :band :bier:
> 
> There are new challenges in the horizon ahead and I'll get back to yas later about.
> 
> To be continued...




Well done too, now please take the profit and spend 20% of that into education. I'm sure if you are committed and willing to take the time to learn appropriate money management techniques and position sizings, you can make consistent profit in the future. 

It's a great time to reflect what you have done so far and do some readings and ask yourself what have contributed your recent extremely profitable trade and what could have got wrong.


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## Julia (16 April 2007)

Some birthday present, Insider!

Congratulations.  I'm so pleased for you.

Don't want to rain on your parade but don't be deluded that it will always work out that way.

What are you going to do with the money now?

Maybe take some profits to lock them in?


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## insider (17 April 2007)

Temjin said:


> Well done too, now please take the profit and spend 20% of that into education. I'm sure if you are committed and willing to take the time to learn appropriate money management techniques and position sizings, you can make consistent profit in the future.
> 
> It's a great time to reflect what you have done so far and do some readings and ask yourself what have contributed your recent extremely profitable trade and what could have got wrong.




thanks heaps Temjin you gave me some great insight... I realize the potential damage this thread could do to somebody if they tried the same technique so I will no longer post my holdings... 

So to the newbies: assume that I hold nothing, learn techniques, learn risk management, do your own research, always question your companies and always have something better to do so you can take your mind off shares... I'm already preparing myself for the crash of the century I call it 'Plan B'

Good luck to everyone and thank you


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## Joe Blow (17 April 2007)

You finally got there... great job Insider! Congrats!

Now when do I get my cut?!


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## insider (17 April 2007)

Julia said:


> Some birthday present, Insider!
> 
> Congratulations.  I'm so pleased for you.
> 
> ...




Hey Jules

I'm thinking of diversifying... PNN, CTS, EME are in my sights...

I'm going to fund some money for superannuation because I don't have any...

Maybe buy that motorbike I wanted... but of course all with proper timing...

so many possibilities...


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## nizar (17 April 2007)

insider said:


> Hey Jules
> 
> I'm thinking of diversifying... PNN, CTS, EME are in my sights...
> 
> ...




I think you are as young as me so FORGET ABOUT SUPER.
You wanna enjoy your life and wealth before you get to 60.

Yeah, buy that motorbike, why not, splurge with the paper! 

As for EME, look at JRL for cheaper entry.

Mind you, MTN doesnt look like slowing down...


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## insider (17 April 2007)

Joe Blow said:


> You finally got there... great job Insider! Congrats!
> 
> Now when do I get my cut?!




Your cut?  

I'll tell you what, I'll sell you a car... this one here can fit twelve bodies in the trunk... it drives like a boat, it's almost like it belongs in the Hudson River...


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## Joe Blow (17 April 2007)

insider said:


> I'll tell you what, I'll sell you a car... this one here can fit twelve bodies in the trunk...




At last... somewhere to stuff the bodies of all those rampers...


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## nizar (17 April 2007)

Joe Blow said:


> At last... somewhere to stuff the bodies of all those rampers...




LOLOLOLOLOLOL  

Thats gold!


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## Caliente (17 April 2007)

Hey Insider! Congratulations. You've done a fantastic job ^_^

Just to report back my experience, I've turned 10K into 42 since December 2004. 

That is nowhere near as impressive as your monster effort, but I've learnt a lot of lessons and taken some hard hits along the way - which have made me a more intuitive trader. 

We're both young (im 22 atm), and hopefully we can carry these skills with us as we go about our respective careers. Given your skills, I imagine this might even be as a fulltime trader!

Once again - congrats and if you're ever in Perth - PM - its always a good time to catch up over a cold one, or a coffee ^_^


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## nizar (17 April 2007)

Caliente said:


> Given your skills, I imagine this might even be as a fulltime trader!


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## Out Too Soon (3 May 2007)

"NO! nO! Can't be done, Better to Take the money to a casino" Blah! Blah! Blah!  Must be fun now to look back on all those comments.

Why stop now, be a bit more cautious but make the $50,000 into $500,000 it's exactly the same maths but multiplied by 10.  

CONGRATULATIONS!!!


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## Sean K (3 May 2007)

Still holding the shares Insider? 

Are they still worth $50K now MTN's back at $5.50?



			
				Insider said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of diversifying... PNN, CTS, EME are in my sights...




Or, did you 'diversify' into these other uranium speccies.


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## shinobi346 (4 May 2007)

insider said:


> Your cut?
> 
> I'll tell you what, I'll sell you a car... this one here can fit twelve bodies in the trunk... it drives like a boat, it's almost like it belongs in the Hudson River...




congrats mate. Well done. MTN is one of my favourites too. 

Remember to call me on the red line right before you sell so I can top up when it dips.


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## Hellyeah (9 May 2007)

Hellyeah said:


> nice progress you made insider... if you're still planing on selling mtn by the end of january i would recommend to pick rms(o) and mxr(o)...
> Rms been one of the best performers for me last year with lots of upside... will go to 1$ this year imho... they got awesome tenements, gettin lotsa cash in their kitty with their open pit gold production on wattle dam and they have a big nickel ressource at hilditch which will be a mayor sp driver in the close future...
> 
> mxr also supposed to see some decent results regarding their gold exploration and uranium exploration  in the close future.... it's also trading under NTA so it's really cheap right now... i would get set in the oppies as they provide a pretty good leverage....
> ...






too bad you didn't act according to my advice , Insider...
If you had sold and gone into RMS and MXR as i suggested you would have been a rich man by now... just look at their charts   guess the Audi R8  will become reality now


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## insider (1 June 2007)

kennas said:


> Still holding the shares Insider?
> 
> Are they still worth $50K now MTN's back at $5.50?
> 
> ...




Mate... what are you talking about they last traded at $5.66... and yes they are still worth over 50K 

Yes I did Diversify into other uranium speccies.  

 lol


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## insider (1 June 2007)

Hellyeah said:


> too bad you didn't act according to my advice , Insider...
> If you had sold and gone into RMS and MXR as i suggested you would have been a rich man by now... just look at their charts   guess the Audi R8  will become reality now




Wow that is impressive... congrats... 

Audi R8... That is quite a chick magnet...

Well I guess I better go buy that crystal ball down at the market... it's half price at the moment... I wonder why


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## greggy (1 June 2007)

insider said:


> Mate... what are you talking about they last traded at $5.66... and yes they are still worth over 50K
> 
> Yes I did Diversify into other uranium speccies.
> 
> lol




Well done Insider. I especially liked the bit about diversifying into other uranium speccies.  LOL!  Indeed, you've benefited well from the biggest uranium boom we've ever had. Congratulations!


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## MichaelD (22 January 2008)

Hi'yall,

Just had to drop by and resurrect this thread. One hopes against hope that our intrepid punter took his profits off the table long ago, 'cause otherwise this thread is a marvellous lesson in how to turn $5,000 into $50,000 and then back again - I suspect an all too common scenario right at the moment.


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## Rockety (23 January 2008)

I'm new to this forum and to the stock market also, but as i read through the topic. The dude picked up a stock on the strong bull market and without any management at all he made good cash and got away with it. Thats good luck called even on a good market, which is sort of untrue today. Anyhow congrats to you and i do hope you got out of the paper around 4,9 dollars or at 3,8 if you were still waiting for market turn


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## insider (24 January 2008)

MichaelD said:


> Hi'yall,
> I suspect an all too common scenario right at the moment.




Nope... I sold a long time ago... I'm loving the Current Market conditions...  Like I said in a previous post I wasn't going to talk about this any more for many reasons... I learned a lot... and no it was not punting... It was understanding...


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## insider (24 January 2008)

Rockety said:


> I'm new to this forum and to the stock market also, but as i read through the topic. The dude picked up a stock on the strong bull market and without any management at all he made good cash and got away with it. Thats good luck called even on a good market, which is sort of untrue today. Anyhow congrats to you and i do hope you got out of the paper around 4,9 dollars or at 3,8 if you were still waiting for market turn




I had a lot of confidence which was key... A lot of people, were very rude and offensive... I doubt this could be done again this year with out using margin lending or CFD's to help... Anyway I'm off to Thailand and Brazil for 2 months using the money while everything turns to doo doo...  Peace

P.S. There are plenty of cool and willing people to help you out in ASF... So welcome


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## insider (24 January 2008)

P.S. I did not get the 50% CGT as I hoped to... The old saying goes it is better to have one bird in the hand than 2 in the bush... so when the market goes down so does the stock (usually) and 50% CGT is an uncertainty... If I had held onto MTN... I'd be nearly where I first started...


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## Scuba (24 January 2008)

MichaelD said:


> Hi'yall,
> 
> Just had to drop by and resurrect this thread. One hopes against hope that our intrepid punter took his profits off the table long ago, 'cause otherwise this thread is a marvellous lesson in how to turn $5,000 into $50,000 and then back again - I suspect an all too common scenario right at the moment.



I remember you from reading the start of the post... (_Very brave though, to come back and post...)_
Another armchair specialist saying he'd never do it. Ever so well spoken and ever so mistaken, definitely not Hitchcock...

Good luck insider, well done.
Long live the tall poppy!


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## MichaelD (24 January 2008)

Scuba said:


> Another armchair specialist saying he'd never do it. Ever so well spoken and ever so mistaken, definitely not Hitchcock...



Indeed. Never say never in regards to the stock market. Good on you Insider for taking and enjoying your profits - the VAST majority of people who tried what you did would crash and burn. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the proportions of luck vs skill in the outcome.


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## adobee (24 January 2008)

I will be starting a new thread shortly titled "How to turn $50,000 into $5,000 in a matter of weeks" it will provide you all with an insight of the seven secrets to wealth...


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## Gundini (24 January 2008)

What a great thread!

Shame it all ended in June 2007...

Followed the progress along this chart, and couldn't wait to see what Insider did in the July turmoil. 

A gripping story, only to find somebody ripped the last few pages out of the book.

Insider sold his MTN, and achieved his target, under stress, attack, but intense fortitude. 

I say to you well done!


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## Gundini (24 January 2008)

Just like to add to the post above.

Is this chart not a true story of how much speculation is built into the share price.

Starts at $1

Goes to $7

Back to $1

So what was the $6 in the middle all about?

Speculation?


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## nioka (24 January 2008)

Gundini said:


> Starts at $1
> 
> Goes to $7
> 
> ...




$1 worth of experience  $1 bad luck and bad timing  $4 penalty for greed and not reading the fundamentals.


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## chuong36a (25 May 2012)

Sound good to turn 5K to 50K. WHY NOT?
Where do u guys live? Why don't we set up a team or club to trade & share knowledge together? 
Let's have fun
Jun Ng


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## NewToTheTrade (26 May 2012)

Just read this whole thread.
Interesting reading old posts from years ago.
MTN is now trading at $0.047 :


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## TMC93 (27 May 2012)

chuong36a said:


> Sound good to turn 5K to 50K. WHY NOT?
> Where do u guys live? Why don't we set up a team or club to trade & share knowledge together?
> Let's have fun
> Jun Ng




You're in it


----------

